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Date:  2 Jan 85 1334-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jan 85 1334-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:

             Administrivia - Hello and Happy New Year,
             Books - Bradley & Golden Age & Organ Banks &
                     Story Request Answered & Short Story Reviews,
             Films - Film Request & Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
             Television - Starlost & Outerworld (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 12:10:41 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Hello there

        Welcome to issue #1 of volume 10.  I am glad to see so many
people still with us and we have more joining us every day.  I would
like to wish all of you a very happy and healthy New Year and hope
that you continue to enjoy reading (and of course contributing) to
this digest.
        I would like to also take this opportunity to remind all of
you that the sf-lovers archive here at Rutgers has a lot of stuff
that you may enjoy reading.  We have all of the digests since the
very beginning of course, but there are some other contributions as
well.

T:<SFL>

Down-in-flames.txt      ;Larry Niven destroys his universe
Drwho.guide             ;episode guide to Dr. Who
Galactica.guide         ;guide to Battlestar Galactica
Hitch-Hikers-Guide-to-the-net.txt       ;a very funny parody
Hugos.txt               ;a listing of all the Hugo winners
Klingonaase.txt         ;how to talk to a Klingon
Lost-in-space.guide     ;need I say it?
Nebulas.txt             ;all the Nebula award winners
Outerlimits.guide       ;another episode guide
Star-trek.guide         ;yet another
Twilight-zone.guide     ;and still another

All of these files are available to readers via the ANONYMOUS login
of FTP (PLEASE, no requests for mailing them to individuals).
        Again, let me welcome you all to a brand new year of fun
reading.  And now, on with the show......

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 21:39:06 EST
From: Larry Kaufman <lkaufman@BBNCCM.ARPA>
Subject: New Darkover Book: City of Sorcery and revised list of books.
Cc: nancy%scrc-cupid@mit-mc.arpa

City of Sorcery is a continuation of the Shattered Chain/Thendara
House story line, starting 7 years after Thendara House.  The style,
as one would expect, is very much like that of Thendara House.  If
you liked TH, you'll probably like CoS, if not, then you won't.

I just checked through my library to check on Darkover chronology.
Here is a revised version of Nancy Connor's (<nancy@SCRC-CUPID>)
list from SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #218 of 10 Dec 84.  I have included
the copyright date and ISBN and publisher of the editions.

Darkover Landfall                       The landing
     (c) 1972 ISBN 009 915410 2
     Arrow Books Limited, London

Stormqueen                              Matrix war and
     (c) 1978 ISBN 0 87997 381 1        genetic tampering
     Daw Books, NY

Hawkmistress                            MacAran gift, King Carolin
     (c) 1982 ISBN 0 87997 762 0
     Daw

Two to Conquer                          Signing of the Compact
     (c) 1980 ISBN 0 87997 540 7        (~200 years after Stormqueen)
     Daw

The Spell Sword                         Andrew Carr/Damon Ridenow/
     (c) 1974 ISBN 0 87997 440 0        Altons vs Cat People.  A
     Daw                                short time before Forbidden
                                        Tower.

The Shattered Chain                     Free Amazons - their point of
     (c) 1976 ISBN 0 87997 327 7        view (12 Year gap in middle
     Daw                                of book)

The Forbidden Tower                     Story about the Towers,
     (c) 1977 ISBN 0 87997 323 4        beginning of matrix
     Daw                                technology for the masses.

Thendara House                          Free Amazons - Terran point
     (c) 1983 ISBN 0 87997 857 0        of view
     Daw

City of Sorcery                         Amazons, Terrans, and
     (c) 1984 ISBN 0 87997 962 3        Sorceresses 7 Years after
                                        Thendara House

Star of Danger                          Kennard and Larry meeting
     (c) 1965   Book # 441 77945
     Ace, NY

The Winds of Darkover                   Larry's fostering
     (c) 1970 ISBN 0 441 89251 5        ~85 years before World
     Ace                                Wreckers

The Bloody Sun                          Attempt to revitalize the
     (c) 1964 Book # 441 06852   (191 pages)     towers.
     (c) 1979 ISBN 0 441 06855 3 (372 pages, slightly larger type)
     Ace

Heritage of Hastur                      About Sharra worship.
     (c) 1975 ISBN 0 87997 307 2        Terrans learn reason behind
     Daw                                compact the hard way.

The Sword of Aldones                    Cleaning up after mess in
     (c) 1962 Ace 441 79200             Heritage of Hastur.
                                        Rewritten as ...
Sharra's Exile
     (c) 1981 ISBN 0 87997 659 4        Mostly same story as Sword
     Daw                                of Aldones.

The Planet Savers                       Darkovan & Terran working
     (c) 1962 Book # 441 67020          together (1976 printing)
     Ace

The World Wreckers                      Terrans try to wreck Darkover
     (c) 1971 ISBN 0 441 91171 4
     Ace

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 11:48:09 -0200
From: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@Berkeley (Eyal mozes)
To: mdc.janice@mit-oz.ARPA
Subject: RE: the Golden Age vs. the "new wave"

> What do I mean by literary standards?  Use of language that is
> more than pedestrian.  Rounded, real characters.  More of a theme
> than "Goshwowboyoboy, isn't technology great?"  An understanding
> that Sensawunda does not substitute for all of these things.

And are you saying that Golden Age SF didn't have "all these
things"?  Then you don't seem to have read much of it!

If you want an example, read one of my all-time SF favorites:
Heinlein's "If This Goes On". It certainly has a serious, important
theme - the meaning and importance of freedom.  Its hero, John Lyle,
is a very realistic character, a character you can identify with
(certainly more than with any Ellison or Bradbury character); and he
is "rounded" in the sense that there is definite development in his
character - specifically, in his understanding of the meaning of
freedom - during the story, and this development is an integral part
of the plot.

Why, then, would the "new wave" regard such a story as lacking
"literary standards"? Because a) it has an interesting plot; b) John
Lyle is a HERO, in the full sense of the word; c) It has an upbeat
ending.

>  Life is often depressing, and there are bad things in the world.
> Literature at its best can, rather than depress us further about
> life, help us get a handle on it.

I agree a 100% with this. In romantic literature (including the best
of Golden Age SF) the "bad things in the world" are represented by
all the dangers and obstacles the heros have to face - which are
usually more sinister than most people's problems. By letting you
see the hero acting purposefully to overcome these obstacles (and
winning), literature at its best may inspire you to act purposefuly
to overcome YOUR problems.  This way, it can "help us get a handle
on it".

This is not true, however, for most of contemporary literature (both
mainstream and SF). The only "handle" it can give you is a license
to give up in the face of the horrible, hopeless world. If you want
to characterize any kind of literature as "escape", this name would
fit "new wave SF" more than any other kind.

        Eyal Mozes
        eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA  (CSNET)
        eyal@wisdom.bitnet              (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 84 10:15:25 PST (Wednesday)
From: lfeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Organ Banks for real ?

I remember a short-short in a collection of short-shorts that dealt
nicely with the problem.  It was written about 1970, when freezing
people (until cures for their diseases were developed) was also a
hot topic. Remember the rumor about Walt Disney?

In the story, a man is re-awakened in the 22nd century after being
frozen in 1970.  A short conversation with a man in his room
discloses what has happened and a few wonders of the future.  Then
the conversation continues something like this:

"Say, what about my estate?  Did it hold out?"
"No, I'm afraid you lost everything in the crash of 2091.  In fact,
I had to pay for having you revived."
"You did?  Well, thanks!  That was very nice of you.  Say, let me
get up and have a look around."
"Oh, no, please remain in bed.  You have to rest up for the heart
transplant operation."
"But I was frozen for liver failure -- there's absolutely nothing
wrong with my heart!"
"No, but there's something wrong with mine...."

Lawrence

p.s. Sorry to not remember title and author.  The anthology is
something like 101 Science Fiction Short-Short Stories; Asimov is
among the three editors.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 84 11:11:55 PST (Thursday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Here's the plot...
To: mjc@CMU-CS-CAD.ARPA (Monica Cellio)

Easily answered!  I was there.

Author (and Bard): Leigh Anne Hussey
Story: The Riding of Idath
In: Fantasy Book, December (Winter) edition, 1984

Her net address is: Lady Lleyn <horatio%UCBMIRO@Berkeley.ARPA>

The story is part of a HUGE cycle of tales about the land of Lleyn.

Commodore Perry, at your service.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 84 19:40:59 PST (Thursday)
From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Mimsy Were..., The Cyphertone, Absent Thee..., and Through
Subject: All

Those who are interested in Padgett's "Mimsy Were the Borogroves"
may wish to read "The Cyphertone" by S.C. Sykes.  This is an
updating of the same idea, though not as well written.  To avoid a
spoiler, the following paragraph won't make much sense unless you
have read Mimsy....

Remember the early (4 years ago) computer game toy Simon and it's
imitations?  Where the player tries to repeat a machine-generated
sequence of flashing lights and sounds?  The Cyphertone is just such
a game, but in the pattern is hidden the information which is taught
the children playing the game.  Otherwise, the story is pretty much
the same as Mimsy...enough so that I'm suprised the author isn't
open to a lawsuit.  All together, not a great story, but an
interesting update of the idea.

This story is available in The 1982 Annual World's Best SF, edited
by Donald A. Wollheim.  This includes "Absent Thee From Felicity
Awhile", by Somtow Sucharitkul, which was much discussed in this
space a few months ago.

Also included is a great, great story called "Through All Your
Houses Wandering", by Ted Reynolds.  In the universe of this story,
each of a dozen alien species has some variation on the telepathic
ability to share and body, together thinking the same thoughts and
sharing experiences.  These range from going to visit each other in
one body, to galactic meetings of many minds at one body, or at a
body-less void, to protections against invaders of the mind, to ...
well, read it and find out.  Some of them are really quite alien
intelligences.  On top of this, our protagonist is thrown without
much control into one body and then another -- following his story,
we get to see each of these worlds -- while his amnesia prevents him
from knowing which body, if any, is really his.  (And you think
you've got problems?)  And as the story continues, there are more
levels to this introduced -- quite a nice structure of complexity
for a 54 page story.

If anyone can recommend anything else by Ted Reynolds, I'd like to
check it out.

Lawrence

"Thiss appearss to be a blank wash-er....The wheel of a toy truck.
It will not do at all, sir."

------------------------------

Date: Thu 20 Dec 84 10:27:42-EST
From: Elizabeth Willey <ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Looking for a film...

I am trying to locate, on VHS tape preferably, in a theater ideally,
but just any way possible, an animated film called ALLEGRO MA NON
TROPPO.  It's a wonderful send-up of FANTASIA (stands on its own
though) and I have seen it only once, about seven years ago.
Director is Bruno Bozzetto or Bozzetti.

It is in Italian (subtitled), but there is very little speech in it;
it is mainly classical music and is very, very funny.  I laughed
till I cried during some of the sequences.

Can anyone point me toward this?

elizabeth@mit-oz

------------------------------

From: guy@anasazi.UUCP (Guy Finney)
Subject: HHGTTG movie
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 13:07:33 MST

Gee, I knew that satellite dish would come in handy...  I just saw
half of an interview with Douglas Adams of HHGTTG, Dr. Who, etc
fame.  I say half because I only got to see the Adams part of the
link; I have no idea who might have been interviewing him (though he
did end with "Thanks, Mort").  It was interesting to see what he
looked like, and to hear a more extemporaneous form of his wit
(rather like an interview with any of the Monty Python gang).  The
reason I'm posting this, though, is to pass along the news (I do
hope this isn't old news - I so seldom get to say "Guess what?" and
it's depressing to hear everyone else say "We know.") that Adams,
with the producer(s) of "Ghostbusters", will be making a
100-minute-or-so feature film of HHGTTG in 1985.  Apparently he's
just relaxing now after finishing up his involvement with the game
version (if I had that kind of money I'd relax a lot, too), and has
taken to fiddling with computers for fun (says he has several now).
He says he must discipline himself to "Put the toys away until I've
written x more pages".

He also muttered something about a fourth book, and I can almost
remember seeing something fly by on the net about it.  The harassed
and battered people at my local B. Dalton (me too) would appreciate
it if someone would let me know what it's called, as they only know
about the first three.

Guy Finney
(decvax!noao!terak!anasazi!guy)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Dec 84 18:06 EST
From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: "The Starlost" TV series

>otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost"...

I remember this as an all-around stinker, although it has been a
while.  Does anyone else remember this at all?  And didn't Ben Bova
or someone write a book that was a takeoff on the production of
this?

Mark

------------------------------

From: dxa@bentley.UUCP (DR Anolick)
Subject: Anyone know about a new SF TV show?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 13:18:23 MST

Seen in yesterdays paper:

        Now that Stacy Keach apparently is out of reach for the next
        nine months, CBS has announced that his "Mike Hammer" series
        will be replaced beginning Jan. 26 with "Otherworld," a new
        sci-fi offering.

        "Otherworld" stars Sam Groom and Gretchen Corbett.  It will
        be put into the schedule at 8 p.m. Saturdays, with "Airwolf"
        moving to the 9 p.m. start and "Cover Up remaining at 10
        p.m.

Does anyone know anything about this new sci-fi series?  Are we
finally going to get some good science fiction, or will this be the
usual dreck?  And who are Sam Groom and Gretchen Corbett?  I can't
place those names at all.

Any information will be greatly appreciated.  Here's hoping for a
quality series.

                Droyan
                ..ihnp4!bentley!dxa
                David Roy Anolick
                ^     ^^^ ^^

------------------------------

From: lauren@vortex.UUCP (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Anyone know about a new SF TV show?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 17:02:46 MST

If memory serves me correctly, "Otherworld" was so bad that even the
networks didn't see fit to put it into the primary schedule.  Since
"Hammer" was a very popular show, they decided to fill the gap with
something the kiddies would be sure to like--mindless TV SF.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jan 85 1402-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART I ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Merits of 2010
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 22:00:00 MST

I am certainly a 2001 fan.  I think it the greatest piece of movie
making in history, and have seen it over a dozen times.  And so to
read previous reviews it should be implied that I hated 2010.

Not so.  I had already abandoned any chance that the movie could
compare to 2001, and so I went in attempting to judge it as what it
is, a movie based on the book 2010.  In this respect it did well.
Sure it got overdramatic, and had no understanding of gravity, and
sure there the various other minor errors, but in a world where we
are almost ready to accept whooshing spaceships and laser blasts you
can see as the norm, this film was a breath of fresh air.

                              SPOILER

Are we sure that the character at the end of 2001 who reads the
taped message is in fact Dr. Floyd?  I was never certain of this.

All this aside, in 2010 the book it is stated that Floyd knew of how
HAL was programmed, and that he had voted against it, but had been
overruled.

This contrasts with the movie version, where he denies all
knowledge.  Of course in the movie, the character of Floyd was
changed slightly from the high-in-government schemer to a tough
good-guy.  While I am not sure I like this change, they had to have
him innocent in the deaths to strengthen this.  It's where Hyams
deviated from the book that he fails.

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (The Napoleon of Crime)
Subject: 2010 review (non-spoiler/spoiler sectioned)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 14:08:46 MST

<Non-spoiler section>

Summary: A movie I went into which I had some great hopes for,
though not with comparisons to 2001 (I assumed that it was
inimitable).  Still, after reading the book, I had hoped that we
would see a movie depicting what space travel would REALLY be like,
and something which would try to exploit the feeling of wonder
associated with space and with an alien encounter.  Unfortunately,
Peter Hyams (who, being director, screenwriter, and director of
photography, must take the full blame) sacrificed all of this for
quick laughs, cheap thrills and political intrigue, all of which
appears pretty inconsequential when examined in context of the
enormity of the monolith et.  al.  This is not a terrible movie; it
is beautifully shot, and is entertaining.  But it could have been,
given the plot and situation Clarke (and Kubrick before them)
provided, much, much more moving and exciting with relatively little
effort or inventiveness on the part of Hyams.  Instead, he seems
almost intent on squashing out the visionary aspects of the book,
and literally takes the low road.  Basically a slow-moving
hour-and-a-half with a fairly taut last-half hour.  The ending
itself is ludicrous and seems pretty out-of-character for creatures
advanced enough to have provided the stimulus for the advancement of
man, besides emphasizing a message Clarke never placed into it in
the first place (though the very last scene is nice).  You will
probably not be bored by this movie, but you won't be moved by it
much, either.

SPOILERS FOLLOW

Well, I'll try to add to what I have stated before:

ATMOSPHERE:

Looks to me as if Hyams so loved the cloudy, dark, ALIEN-rip-off
lighting of OUTLAND he decided to use it here (apparently
Intravision was used, also); for a movie which has for a subject the
first (well, almost) encounter with an alien race, it tends to look
more like a horror/suspense movie than anything.  Where are the
beautiful, stark vistas shown in 2001?  Lord, it can't be THAT tough
to do these days.  It always looks like the giant mutant iguana
lizard of planet X is going to jump out any minute.  Only in the
scenes which deal with Bowman/Starchild is there any flavor, any
light (more on this later).  It seems to show a place where space
travel is a trudge, a chore rather like commuting in New York via
the subway.

SPECIAL EFFECTS:

Well, next to Trumbell (who is the best... I've looked at scenes 15
times in BLADERUNNER without figuring out how the Hell he did it),
Richard Edlund is probably the best in the business these days; and
no one can deny that they are spectacular in this movie.  But here
we come across an interesting phenomena: a film where there is no
flaw in the special effects except for their appropriateness.  The
LEONOV is shot from such a bewildering variety of shots, and in such
poor contrast, that she might as well be the Death Star.  Also,
LEONOV's rotating section appears to create gravity in a
satisfactory manner (however, I assumed there was normal gravity on
the decks of the ship, as everyone was walking casually -- until
Mirren and Schieder pull the pen/pencil stunt in mid-air to explain
the escape method.  Wha' happen?); but the ship falls into the
non-smooth, bumpy-grimey style of every ship since Star Wars.  The
DISCOVERY, even after floating around for 9 years, and covered with
sulfur, looks better.  I would place the blame more on Hyams and the
designer than Edlund... it still has some striking effects
(especially the metamorphosis of Jupiter).

THE SCRIPT:

Well, here's my MAJOR GRIPE.  I could go on forever about how Hyams
trys to turn this into a audience-manipulation-emotion movie, like
INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF WHOOPEE, with the energy jumping out
of the hole in Europa (Jaws music should have been inserted), and
the funny things everyone says, as if Hyams is saying, "This is
probably too much for you to comprehend...  I'll lower it all to
your level."  Huh.  It's not that it isn't entertaining; it's just
that I AM SICK AND TIRED OF "ENTERTAINING" SCIENCE FICTION!  How
about something with some vision and wonder?  Cripes, if I see
another band of hostilities.

Some specific points:

1) The Russian & American subplot.  Obviously, Hyams throws this in
    so that at the end he can pull a Michael Rennie and have aliens
    so advanced that we can't comprehend them say "Live in Peace and
    Love, baby!"  My God, you think anything that advanced cares
    about diplomatic relations between two petty world powers?  And
    the Russians in the film completely blow any feeling of
    comraderie in the book (which I enjoyed); is there something in
    Hollywood that says all Russians must be represented as sullen,
    hostile, and most of all, DUMB (why was Alexi killed?  he wasn't
    in the book!  I guess just to show Americans are smart, and
    Russians are dumb).  And so much for being scientists...  Really
    the worst thing about the movie.

2) John Lithgows walk in space ("Pant Pant!").  Come on, you think
    anyone responsible for Discovery's design and construction
    hasn't been spacewalking around the Earth or Moon for most of
    his time?  Really stupid.

Well, I'm running out of time.  A few good things (and there are
some):

GOOD THINGS

1) HAL 9000.  Very well done subplot, and the final discussion
    between he and Chandra had me misting up quite a bit.  I'd like
    to think that my Fat Mac will like me that much.  But this is
    brought from the book, as is most good stuff in the movie.

2) Roy Schieder's meeting with Bowman/Starchild.  Very nice verbal
    interplay between Schieder and HAL.

3) Destruction of Jupiter... really made you feel the power it would
    take to do this.

4) The very last scene with the monolith on Europa... this is much
    more circular (with 2001) than Clarke's ending.  It also shows
    the idea of a movie, which is to represent thousand's of words
    with appropriate images.  Hyams did here; it is a shame he had
    to wait 2 hours before coming out with a great scene.

                  "Texxon... Do what we say, and nobody gets hurt."

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
!fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

From: okie@ihuxi.UUCP (B.K. Cobb)
Subject: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 07:47:51 MST

Okay, we're all wonderful experts on the technical problems in
"2010."  We take the flaws we think we see and we bow (excuse me,
that's "blow") them up to show how truly lousy a movie it is.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.  I'll state right out that I liked 2010,
and I disagree that it's "cheap kiddie thrills" or "Battlestar
Galactica" quality.  And it's not as technically inaccurate as some
people have been saying.

For example, the big beef seems to be that Hyams doesn't understand
gravity -- or, more to the point, zero-gravity.  Well, he manages to
make a couple of mistake, it's true -- for example, when Chandra
cries in HAL's "brain chamber," his tears shouldn't slide down his
face since he's in zero-g -- they should just hang there, making it
hard for him to see.  But why is everyone complaining about the
walking around aboard the Leonov and the Discovery?  Most of the
walking takes place in the grav sections of the Leonov (I'm sure you
noticed the spinning portion of the ship, right?)  When it occurs in
the pod bay, you might harken back to the film you keep comparing it
too; "2001" had lots of walking around in their zero-g pod bay, and
on the zero-g control deck.  You can safely assume that the shoes
and floor surfaces use an attractive surfacing of some sort -- I
did, and had not trouble with it the rest of the movie.  If you
complain about attention to detail, you might think about that point
for awhile.

And you might take another good look at the scenes where the two
astronauts first enter Discovery -- they're standing upright on one
of the *walls* of the pod bay, because of the tidal force from
Discovery's spin.  I think that shows a fairly good understanding of
what's going on.

And for me, the aerobraking sequence was quite good.  Since the
Jovian atmosphere is full of radical chemical compounds, there's no
reason why the effect shouldn't look like it did -- I mean, how many
of you have seen an aerobraking procedure?  If you have, enlighten
us -- if not, then one opinion on the "look" of it is as good as
another.

Other complaints... I agree that the roaring and whooshing in space
detracted from the feel of the film; but that's the current state of
treatment of such actions in American films.  I don't like it, but
most directors feel that the audience gets bored if there is not
sound.  Of course, I still think Kubrick got around this nicely by
taking us inside the astronauts suit with sound, and it would still
work today, but...

I don't normally get in on these discussions -- I just like to sit
and watch the flames flicker, so to speak.  But I think too many
people are busy enlarging small technical "problems" and missing the
larger view.  As a sequel, "2010" obviously doesn't measure up to
"2001," and I don't believe Hyams ever intended it to.  But on its
own, "2010" is a good movie, an enjoyable and involving "people"
story, and worth seeing.

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie
"My God, it's full of critics!"

------------------------------

From: rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Randy Buckland)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 06:39:52 MST

> As long as we're at it (the "mistakes" are about the most
> diverting features of this fiasco) how about the scene when the
> space-walking astronauts first approach the docking bay of the
> Discovery?  It's covered with some kind of space dust, like dirty
> clay, and one of their first actions is to brush the surface with
> their hands.  This space dust is rather earthbound, for it doesn't
> scatter in a cloud as you might expect (assuming that dust would
> settle on a spaceship anyway) but acts remarkably like the dust on
> my coffee table, being attracted to the surface, just like
> gravity.

        That is because the dust and the Discovery is electrically
charged.  The effects between Jupiter and Io produce a great deal of
sulfer dust and causes large static discharges between them. Every
time Discovery passed between them, it was charged and some dust
built up. This is what was causing the orbit to decay. This is all
in the book. Read it!
                                      Randy Buckland
                                      Research Triangle Institute
                                      ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: mfc@hp-pcd.UUCP (mfc)
Subject: Re: Re: another 2010 mistake (and more m
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 14:14:00 MST

I should HOPE the accents weren't too bad!  The actors speaking all
that Russian were REAL RUSSIANS (read the last few issues of Starlog
about the making of 2010).
                                Mark F. Cook
                                HP-PCD
                                Corvallis, OR
                                ..hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc

------------------------------

From: chabot@amber.DEC (l s chabot)
Subject: All That 2010
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 13:04:42 MST

Look, gravity on ships, okay, I'll put up with that.  But gravity on
ships for people and not for pencils?  It seems to me that they took
the neat pencil floating stuff from the shuttle to the moon and just
had to do it too and combined it with the gravity on Discovery.
Well, after all, the weight of a pencil ~= 0 compared to the weight
of a human.  Bye, bye, Newton.  (Of course, what direct experience
did he have with pencils in outer space, anyway.)

I've got something to get off my chest: I liked 2001.  Lots.  I like
Kubrick films (yes, especially "Barry Lyndon").  I didn't like 2010
because I didn't find it a particularly mature film, and it had what
I consider to be some major flaws in physics, characterization,
continuity, and plot.

Frankly, I've always thought god is on Io, instead.

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: 2010 review (non-spoiler/spoiler sectioned)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 14:39:22 MST

> 2) John Lithgows walk in space ("Pant Pant!").  Come on, you think
> anyone responsible for Discovery's design and construction hasn't
> been spacewalking around the Earth or Moon for most of his time?
> Really stupid.

   I don't think that that's all that valid.  How many of the
designers of the Lunar Lander or the Space Shuttle have ever flown
in them?  He probaly did everything with computer simulations safe
and sound in his office in Mountain View.  I thought his panic was a
nice touch, I loved it when he looks "down" at his feet and he seems
to be just hanging there umpteen miles above Jupiter.
   Incidently, when he finally reaches the Discovery, wasn't the
section of hull were he touched labeled "airlock"?

> 3) Destruction of Jupiter... really made you feel the power it
> would take to do this.

   I was disappointed that when we see the monoliths on Jupiter that
the movie doesn't actually show them reproducing (doubleing in
thickness then splitting in half).  It just doesn't show what's
actually going on, didn't give me the feeling of how the planet is
just being totally inundated with these things.

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin
"It's sort of a threat, you see.  I've never been very good at them
  myself but I'm told they can be very effective."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jan 85 1440-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART 2 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 07:09:47 MST

cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander) writes:
> ......................... I had always thought that there were
> only 3 and if one was lost with Frank Poole, another when Bowman
> had to enter the ship manually (ahem) and the last when Bowman
> heads toward the monolith then why is that one there?

In the book 2010 it explains that after Bowman had finished with
HAL, he bought back the pod (The one he lost while entering the ship
manually ) under remote control to the pod bay.

> .................................... The suit without the helmet
> in the docking bay may also be a blooper (shouldn't it be a helmet
> without a suit?) but I haven't seen 2001 in awhile.

I agree , this does seem to be a mistake.
UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt  ( L.K.Turner)

------------------------------

From: kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: 2010 review review
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 15:14:57 MST

>   Much of the science of "2010" is questionable in the face of
> what we knew, know and are learning.  A new star appears in the
> solar system and the earth escapes without a tremor.  The Leonov
> embarks without enough fuel to either return or slow down.  They
> do "air braking" (without air) to slow Leonov as she whips around
> the planet and into a new orbit.  How's that for science friction.

   Questionable?  To who?  Yes a new star does appear and if it
popped up out of nowhere there would be problems - but it didn't,
the mass of a currently existing object (one which many scientists
believe is a failed star due to insufficient mass) was increased
until it collapses inwards and the pressure ignites nuclear fusion
and bingo!  Besides, it stands to reason that the ones creating the
new star would have checked things out to insure there would be no
catalysmic consequences.
   The Leonov had just enough fuel to go to Jupiter and return
provided she stuck to her previously computed schedule and left
Jupiter when the Earth was in the right position, the "launch
window" mentioned in the film.  Due to the warning they have to
leave NOW, not in two weeks when the Earth will be in the right
position, but NOW.  And for that there was insufficient fuel.
   Aero-braking is a valid concept, although I don't think the film
was accurate as to the duration of the braking event.  Any planet
with an atmosphere has various layers depending on the types of
gases found.  The Earth's layer of hydrogen and helium extend for
many miles beyond it's oxygen layer and Jupiter is practically all
atmosphere.  Although thin at the Leonov's altitude it's thick
enough, considering the Leonov's speed, to create considerable
drag.  The approach is computed to "skim" through this layer,
slowing the ship down just enough so it has the proper orbital
velocity as it leaves the atmospheric drag.

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin

------------------------------

From: faigin@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 12:27:04 MST

cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander) writes:
>Another mistake in the film (other than Heywood Floyd knowing that
>the monolith hadn't been discussed with the crew) is the lone EVA
>pod in the docking bay of Discovery. I had always thought that
>there were only 3 and if one was lost with Frank Poole, another
>when Bowman had to enter the ship manually (ahem) and the last when
>Bowman heads toward the monolith then why is that one there?

I believe that it is that way in the book, and so the film is just
being true to the book. As to whether the book is in error, I am not
sure.

Daniel P. Faigin
University of California at Los Angeles
UUCP: {cepu|ihnp4|trwspp|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!faigin
ARPA: faigin@UCLA-CS.ARPA
USPS (Home):    11743 Darlington Avenue #9
                Los Angeles CA 90049
                (213) 826-3357

------------------------------

From: ron@wjvax.UUCP (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake (and more mistakes)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 20:42:25 MST

On the mysterious "returning" pod:

According to the book, Bowman went EVA and retrieved the pod he left
by the manual entry door.  (That means the one in the movie SHOULD
have had the door missing.  Did anyone catch that?  I can't
remember.)  Also according to the book, the rescue team used this
pod by remote control to examine the monolith.  This unmanned pod
was the one that got destroyed when Bowman returned.  I guess the
director thought that wasn't dramatic enough.  (Let's kill someone
off!)  I think Bowman's suit when he disconnected Hal was red, with
a blue helmet.  That makes the headless blue suit in the launch bay
the other half.  (I may have the colors mixed up.)

I thought the Discovery sets looked cheap.  The perspective was
wrong in some cases, like Scheider's first glimpse of Bowman in the
carousel.  I heard a rumor that they had to rebuild the sets from
footage of 2001, as the plans and original sets were destroyed.  Can
anyone confirm this?

They really screwed up the zero gravity scenes.  There is gravity
only in the carousel (in Discovery) or the spinning section of the
Russian ship.  Yet you couldn't tell by the way people moved,
objects rested, etc. which part of the ships they were in.  Zero
gravity depictation is probably an area where movies like Star Wars
have actually done damage.

Why was the method used to stop the Discovery's spin passed over?
Probably because the director didn't understand it himself.  See
above.

The control room of the Russian ship didn't look believable to me,
either.  No headrests on the chairs.  Lots of protrusions to bang
your head against in (supposedly) zero gravity.  Low resolution
graphics on most of the displays.  (In 2010???)

I *did* like the Russian launch bay.  Aside from the fact that
everyone was standing around, (AAAARRGH!!!) the set *looked*
functional.

I didn't hear anyone else complain about the complete axing of the
Chinese expedition part in 2010 the movie.  Like cutting out half
the book.  The whole point of the movie was the emergence of life on
Europa, and this point was almost completely passed over.

Hey, did anyone notice the resurgance of 1984 clothing styles in the
year 2010?  The apparent fad of wearing antique wrist watches?  How
about thirty-five year old calculators?  Bah!  The director should
be shot.
        Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
        {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

From: fetrow@entropy.UUCP (David Fetrow)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 05:08:37 MST

 Let us not forget however that the sfx involving Heywood were
flawed in 2001. The only technical error I remember there was when
fluid within a straw he was drinking from went *down* in zero-G.
 As for the pod still being present in the bay (Betty I believe) in
the book (2001) it was recalled before the final odyssey.

-Dave Fetrow
 On a computer that couldn't for a moment be mistaken for SAL

------------------------------

From: alpert@nanook.DEC
Subject: 2010
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 21:02:03 MST

Did anyone else happen to notice how after 9 years in orbit around
Jupiter, all of Discovery's flat panel video screens (most of which
were square or taller than than they were wide) were transformed
into standard color CRT's?  Must have been some strange side-effect
of the monolith!

...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nanook!alpert

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: Re: 2010 lights & switches
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 23:04:18 MST

I for one liked the Soviet ship interiors very much -- seemed homey,
cozy, and realistic compared to Discovery.  What DID bother me about
all those pretty colored banks of color-coded switches (stolen from
organ consoles?):

In *every* scene they are ALL IN THE SAME POSITION -- all off or all
on.  Would have been much more real, and added to the visual
texture, if the switches had shown random on/off settings.  Likewise
the lights.  I guess the sets were made with all those rocker
switches cast from one solid piece of plastic, so they ccouldn't be
set differently.

mike k
PS: I liked the exposed cables overhead; felt like a submarine, and
quite in keeping with CLarke's description of a cramped, functional
Leonov.
PPS: Did you notice Alexi's pod was named "Grampy"?

------------------------------

From: cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander)
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 10:29:12 MST

Once again someone has mentioned the infamous 'straw' mistake in
2001.  Over the years I have heard various things about this - some
claim that it is a true error and others say that because of surface
tension etc that it really should happen albeit perhaps more slowly.
With all the NASA people on the net perhaps someone could suggest
that on a future shuttle flight they put the matter to rest once and
for all. (if they already have let me know and I'll put myself to
rest once and for all).

------------------------------

From: patcl@tekecs.UUCP (Pat Clancy)
Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 13:53:12 MST

>Whats wrong with Air Braking!!! The "marshmallow" was the metalized
>balloon that was deployed before the maneuver and ejected after
>they had slowed down. The effect looked exactly as I would have
>expected it to look.

The marshmallow analogy should perhaps have included an explanation.
The thing that ruined it for me was the trail of smoke left by the
Leonov's passage through Jupitor atmosphere. Smoke is particulate
matter which results from a chemical combustion process; ie.,
something's burning up. The only thing that could have been burning
in this case was the balloon, but it seemed to (and had to) survive
intact.  Certainly the heating of the hydrogen/helium atmosphere
would not have produced smoke. The space shuttle doesn't produce a
smoke trail when it reenters, even in an oxygen atmosphere.
Therefore, the reason the smoke trail is there is that someone in
the special effects dept. thought it would look more dramatic that
way, and to hell with reality. This is the same line of reasoning
that gives us blasting noises from rockets igniting in space.  To me
it looked like a burning marshmallow, rather than a superheating
spaceship.

One or two people have stated that velcro on the shoes would explain
why the actors appeared to be moving around normally in 0 g.
Certainly we've all seen enough TV from the shuttle to know that
people do not move and appear the same in 0 g as they do in 1 g, no
matter how well their feet are anchored. This was one of the more
inexcusable screw-ups by Mr. Hyames, part of the overall sloppiness
and TV-series quality which pervade the film.

Pat Clancy, Tektronix
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,hplabs}!tektronix!tekecs!patcl

------------------------------

From: spector@acf4.UUCP
Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake (and more mista
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 08:09:00 MST

I don't know how many on the net speak russian, but did anyone
notice that the pod Max went out to play with the Monolith in was
named "Grumpy"??

I wonder what the others were named  ! :-) :-)

BTW, the russian in the film was real, and the accents weren't TOO
bad, but that doesn't make up for all of the other flaws.

------------------------------

From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag)
Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 12:19:02 MST

> One or two people have stated that velcro on the shoes would
> explain why the actors appeared to be moving around normally in 0
> g. Certainly we've all seen enough TV from the shuttle to know
> that people do not move and appear the same in 0 g as they do in 1
> g, no matter how well their feet are anchored. This was one of the
> more inexcusable screw-ups by Mr. Hyames, part of the overall
> sloppiness and TV-series quality which pervade the film.

I'm sure they had a big budget for this movie, but it would probably
have to be a lot bigger in order to make it look as though people
were moving in zero g.  But if they had enough money, they could
have moved the whold production into space to avoid this inexcusable
sloppiness.  They could also try shooting very short sequences in
some kind of free-fall elevator (like at some amusement parks).
   These are the only ways offhand I can think of to make it look as
though people are moving in zero g.  Both of them sound ridiculously
expensive.
   Maybe we'll just have to live with things like that for awhile
longer until some special effects genius invents artificial gravity.

Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j

"I've got it!  We'll build the set under a 500' diameter sphere of
neutronium!  Let's see ... Neutronium $5000/ounce ....  forget it."

------------------------------

From: hess@fortune.UUCP (Marty Hess)
Subject: Re: 2010 review
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 14:05:37 MST

> I came into 2010 not expecting a lot.  After all, 2001 had been
> directed by God in His Incarnation As Stanley Kubrick, but still
> it is a major SF movie based on a book by one of the biggest
> authors in the field.

        This reminds me of something I remember seeing last time I
read 2001/2010: Somewhere in there Clarke stated that the book
(2001) and the movie were done (more or less) in parallel.  He also
stated that doing this generated a much better product for both
media, both technically as well as flow/plot development.
        Did I really read this, or am I dreaming?  Anyone know of
any other (name) authors that have produced a work in parallel with
an alternate media version?  What was the outcome?

        Marty Hess      Software Engineering - Graphics
UUCP:   {sri-unix, amd, hpda, harpo, ihnp4, allegra}!fortune!hess
DDD:    Co.: (415) 595-8444     Me direct: (415) 594-2565
USPS:   Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Pkwy,
        Redwood City, CA 94065

------------------------------

From: rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: 2010 review - 2001 book/movie written together
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 21:31:07 MST

My version of history goes like this: 2001, the book, was written in
step with the movie. Clarke originally responded to a request from
Kubrick for a "space epic" by sending him a short story called "The
Sentinel," written in 1948 for a BBC competition. "Brainstorming,"
hard work and many revisions took it from there. The book really
wasn't finished before the film was.  This story is told by Clarke
in "The Lost Worlds of 2001" Copyright 1972

"It's the thought, if any, that counts."  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: 2010 lights & switchesl- All one position?
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 13:03:54 MST

Not so. Careful observation disclosed at least one board with two
bright yellow type switches in different position from the others.
Go see it again and look more carefully.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts."  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jan 85 1022-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Chalker & Kurtz &
                    Robinson & Collector's Editions (4 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Information Requested

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck)
Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn <spoiler!>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 21:25:57 MST

Aurora and the intelligent robots and the fact that our friendly
master detective in Asimov's work is all part of a series of stories
is part of the reason for developing Aurora. Read the NAKED SUN for
more and better I can't off hand recall the rest of the titles in
the series.

From the mostly vacant environment of
Jeanette L. Zobjeck (ihnp4!wlcrjs!zubbie)
All opinions expressed may not even be my own.

------------------------------

From: carlton@masscomp.UUCP (Carlton Hommel)
Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 07:55:30 MST

Several years ago, Issac Asimov postulated a future society.  Earth
was very crowded, with people people living underground, in
conditions that would give a sardine claustrophobia.  Earthers
tended to be afraid of robots, because they would take jobs away
from humans.  The Outer Systems were underpopulated, and the few
people living there embraced robots, using them for everything.

Asimov set out to write three detective novels in this mythos.  The
first would be set on Earth, and would show its problems.  Thus,
_The Caves of Steel_.  The second would be set on a world with a
severe shortage of people, and too many robots.  This world was
Solaris; the book, _The Naked Sun_.

At this time in his career, Asimov found writing "pop" science books
to be much easier, and much more lucrative, so he never wrote the
third book in the trilogy.  This book would show a "balanced"
society, where humans and robots got along in what we would consider
a normal fashion.  This world was Aurora, and there were hints in
the other two books about its culture.

Since "Star Wars", SF has attracted Big Bucks, and Del Ray Books
offered Asimov Mucho $ to finish his trilogy, and write another
"Foundation" Novel.

        Carl Hommel

Wife:  What does "RUR" stand for?
Husband:  Rossem's Universal Robots.

------------------------------

Subject: Chalker rides again
Date: 29 Dec 84 22:51:29 EST (Sat)
From: Marshall Rose <mrose@udel-dewey>

As someone mentioned earlier, the third book of the "Soul Rider"
series, "Masters of Flux and Anchor", just hit the stores (with a
1985 copyright, no less).

                        ** minor ** spoiler

As usual, Chalker goes to great lengths to describe the observable
parts of his universe, and as the books progress, the internal
mechanics become more clear.  In the "magic" area, there are strong
parallels between flux and a) the well, b) the warden molecule (from
the less enjoyable "Four Diamonds" series).  In the political area,
all three books of this series spend a lot of time dwelling on the
1984-style political systems involved and the people (some
well-meaning, and some not so nice) who run them.  Summary:
1984-style governments are bad, not just bad, but down-right nasty.

[Aside: Chalker wrote a book in '79 called "A War of Shadows" in
which terrorists use germ-warfare against the US and the govt.  goes
1984-style to "combat" the terror.  micro summary: good.]

Unlike the "Four Diamonds" series, the ending wasn't a let-down,
despite the fact that a lot more was given away in "Soul Rider"
prior to the last 50 pages.

Summary: I liked this series, although the second book got
disgusting at points.  I think it's better than "Well World" and a
lot better than "Four Diamonds".  Your mileage may differ.

/mtr

ps: According to the author's notes, there are one or two more books
coming(!!) describing how things got the way they were prior to the
first book.  Does this guy use a word processor or what? I hope he
finishes the third book of the "Dancing Gods" series soon, the first
two were hilarious.  Ya' know, the way Chalker cranks things out, I
really should have had him write my dissertation.

------------------------------

From: tw@hpisla.UUCP (tw)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 13:35:00 MST

Yes, the Deryni series is on my buy-immediately list also.  I've
just recently read "The Bishop's Heir" and have just two comments to
make:

(1) The title reference meant something completely different than
    what I thought - you only find out at the very end, and
(2) I sure hope she hurries up and does the next one.  I can't wait.

Tw Cook
{hplabs, hp-pcd, hpfcla}!hpisla!tw or twc@hplabs.CSNET
HP Instrument Systems Lab, Loveland, CO
(303)667-5000x3724

------------------------------

From: jeanne@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: Spider Robinson
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 84 11:20:16 MST

This is going to be a rapturous rave for Robinson's work.  I've
loved it for several years, but that was mostly based on the
Callahan Crosstime Salooon stories--I have a weakness for puns and
Spider has some really "vile" ones in his stories.  However, in the
last couple of months I have read a couple of his more serious works
and have been unbelievably impressed.  The man writes beautifully.

I am normally the type who tears through books as fast as I can
because there is just so much to read and so little time to read it
all.  When I notice the writing (as opposed to the story itself) on
the first read through a book, there has to be something very
special about it.  I've never read descriptive passages in anything
to compare with those in Spider's works; I've actually stopped to
savor the descriptions and my reactions to them--it takes something
special to stop my headlong flight through my reading.

I finished reading "Mindkiller" last night.  Needless to say, I
recommend it extremely highly.  It has two parallel plots
(alternating chapters), both of which involve people you care about,
in situations that challenge their minds, emotions, and lives.  Some
of the things that happen can be anticipated (or at least speculated
about as possible), but there are some real surprises.  (Chapter 2
appeared in Omni as a story called "God Is An Iron.)

The other book I read (a couple of months ago) was a collection of
Spider's short stories, called "Melancholy Elephants" (the title
story won the Hugo Award for short story in 1983).  Unfortunately,
the book is only available in Canada at the moment.  If you live
there, get the book as quickly as possible.  If you are here in the
States, you either have to wait until the book comes out late in
1985 here, or get hold of friends or relatives in Canada and get
them to send it to you.  The book is worth the trouble to find it.
The depth of human feeling in the stories is

I met Spider and his wife, Jeanne, at Worldcon, and fell instantly
in love with both of them.  For those of you who are caught up on
Spider's work, here's the word on what he has coming up. There is
going to be a third Callahan book (in March) (hooray!).  He is also
finishing up his new novel (working title is "Time Pressure).  He
read the first chapter at the convention and it is an awesome
beginning.

So, for those of you who have yet to discover Spider Robinson, find
his books wherever you can. It will be well worth the effort.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: collector's editions
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 20:12:37 MST

From:   stolaf!robertsl (Laurence Roberts)
> ... What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch (among others)
> publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid
> to read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford
> them... I'm not even talking about $18 hardbacks (although those
> are bad enough). I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat
> about Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press...
> Opinions?

Well, given that I'm one of those people that collects specialty
press and limited edition books, it behooves me to put in my two
cents worth.
        First off, there aren't many of these limited editions that
don't also come out in trade editions, either hardcover or
paperback. They are collectable for basicly two reasons: (1) they
are a limited run item, which makes them rarer than the trade
edition, and are usually much better made; and (2) they are usually,
though unfortunately not always, the first editions of the books.
        Secondly, I don't understand why you're complaining --- you
don't have to buy them. With a few exceptions, the trade editions
are issued within a few months after the limited edition. And as I
mentioned above, some small presses, though they intend otherwise,
don't manage to get their limited editions out before the trade
edition. In at least one case, Gene Wolfe's THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER,
the book had an SF Book Club edition.
        There are likely as many different reasons why the authors
have these editions published as there are authors. When Stephen
King's THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER was published by Don Grant, it
was announced that there would be no trade edition of the book ever.
Why? Well, for one, King didn't think that it was commercial.  It's
a rather convoluted fantasy, and he didn't think that his regular
audience of horror fans would go for it. Secondly, King's roots were
in fandom (his first published story appeared in a comics fanzine
published by DC Comics writer Marv Wolfman), and he wanted to "do
something that the fans could have that the mainstream audience
could not". Oddly enough, when the list of books by King that
appeared in PET SEMATARY included THE DARK TOWER, King, his agent,
and his regular publishers were deluged with letters asking how they
could get ahold of a copy. This prompted King and Don Grant to do a
second edition.
        Like almost anything else, these collector's editions are
like anything else --- they exist because there is a market for
them, there is an audience that enjoys buying and owning them, and,
yes, even reading them. You may find that there are some books
published only in these expensive limited editions that you want to
have but can't afford, but you can't always get what you want.
That's just the way life is. If you want it bad enough, you'll pay
for it.

> From: ames!barry      (Kenn Barry)

> I *have* seen cases where there has been an unconscionably long
> delay between the publishing of the collector's edition, and later
> publishing of the trade edition. This seems to be an effort to
> boost sales of the expensive version by withholding the affordable
> copies, and I consider it a low practice.

Ah, but is it really done in order to *boost* sales of the expensive
edition, or to prevent *loss* of sales for the expensive edition. I
know, this sounds like another "half-empty or half-full?" argument,
but it really isn't. It's been demonstrated by at least one
publisher (Phantasia Press) that if their edition gets delayed past
the release date of the trade edition, or the trade edition gets
shipped earlier than it's supposed to (which has happened on a few
occassions), that it affects sales of the limited edition. The loss
is mostly from that sector of the market that buys the limited
editions solely because they are first editions --- if the limited
edition isn't a first, then it is of no interest to these
collectors.
        It also depends on what you may consider an "unconscionable"
delay. Three months? Six months? A year? The latest Stephen King
limited edition, THE EYES OF THE DRAGON was just issued (I got mine
the other day), and it won't be available in a trade edition for 3
years. Why so long a delay, I don't know. It can't be to boost sales
of the limited --- there were only a thousand copies done, and no
one could seriously believe that they wouldn't sell out the print
run even if a trade edition was issued simultaneously. Maybe like
THE DARK TOWER, he wanted to give the dedicated fans a treat that
would be unavailable to the general public for a good while. Or it
could be that he's writing things so far ahead of his publishing
schedule, that a trade edition just can't be done for three years.
        Of course, the *really* frustrating thing is when there
appears the really obscure item such as Stephen King's THE PLANT, an
excerpt from a novel in progress that was published as a small
chapbook and sent to friends of King as a Christmas present. It's
things like this that give the collectors so many headaches.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: kalash@ucbcad.UUCP
Subject: Re: re: collector's editions
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 11:32:32 MST

> I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat about Disch's
> booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press...  Opinions?

        There have been (to my knowledge) two limited books that
cost more then $100, and both are Stephen King books. Most limiteds
are in the range of 40 -> 50.

> This seems to be an effort to boost sales of the expensive version
> by withholding the affordable copies, and I consider it a low
> practice.

        This is rarely (if at all) done. The people who make the
limiteds and the people who make the trades usually are different
publishers. The trade press usually just schedules the book, and the
limited press scurries about trying to get to press and out the door
in time.

> The latest Stephen King limited edition, THE EYES OF THE DRAGON
> was just issued (I got mine the other day), and it won't be
> available in a trade edition for 3 years. Why so long a delay, I
> don't know.

        King's normal publisher (Viking) doesn't want more than one
King book out any any year, they like his books to be "events", and
they don't want the books conflicting with one another.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: david@bragvax.UUCP (David DiGiacomo)
Subject: Re: collector's editions
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 15:00:39 MST

boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) writes:

>When Stephen King's THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER was published by
>Don Grant, it was announced that there would be no trade edition of
>the book ever. Why? Well, for one, King didn't think that it was
>commercial.  It's a rather convoluted fantasy, and he didn't think
>that his

It's funny that you would use this for an example-- it was
serialized in one of the SF magazines (perhaps someone could provide
the references).  No doubt the book version was altered, but some
form of the story was available in a non-limited edition.

For what it's worth, I'm much more offended by large-format "trade"
paperbacks than collector-oriented editions.  I wish publishers
would just print rack-size paperbacks on non-rotting paper and
charge a dollar more, instead of doubling the size and price.

David DiGiacomo, BRAG Systems Inc., San Mateo CA  (415) 342-3963
(...decvax!ucbvax!hplabs!bragvax!david)

------------------------------

From: kalash@ucbcad.UUCP
Subject: Re: Re: collector's editions
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 10:43:01 MST

boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) writes:

> When Stephen King's THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER was published
> by Don Grant, ...It's funny that you would use this for an
> example-- it was serialized in one of the SF magazines (perhaps
> someone could provide the references).

        Sure, "The Magazine of Science Fiction and Fantasy" over a
couple of different years, although these are very hard issues to
find.
                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 20 Dec 1984 06:42:09-PST
From: feldman%bartok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Geoff Feldman HL02-3E09
From: 225-6023)
Subject: needing information

Does anyone know if NESFA has a Arpa net address?  This would be for
whomever is responsible for selecting events at BOSCONE.

                                        ---Geoff

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jan 85 1042-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE - PART 1 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "DUNE".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Dune - The movie.  STAY AWAY
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 22:00:00 MST

The movie sucked.  Except for budget it was a B movie, on a par with
Superman III.  I could go on for hours about all the thing wrong,
but suffice to say you are luckier than me if you miss this one.

The only thing worth it is the special effects, in particular some
of the sandworm scenes.

Characterization is nil mostly and pointless where it exists.  Even
good actors like Linda Hunt are in terrible roles.  Sting is on
camera for a few minutes, and his role is pointless.  Major
characters from the book are brought in for no other reason than to
see them, and they usually don't get more than 3 lines.

STAY AWAY FROM THIS FILM.

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: dwight@timeinc.UUCP (Dwight Ernest)
Subject: DUNE Review--Don't Miss It, But... (LONG, slight spoiler)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 16:17:26 MST

I went to see DUNE last night with my wife, Sandra, and a friend she
works with, Don. We're all in the same field, computers in
publishing; Don has a remarkable capacity for trivia, and as we
waited to go into the theater in the opening-night line, he stumped
us constantly with various trivial facts about the DUNE books ("How
did Gurney Halleck get his scar?" "From what feature in the Arrakis
sky did the name M'uad D'ib come from?"). Incidentally, while we
were standing in line, some people from the theater came around to
pass out a commemorative book of credits for the film and a
remarkably helpful glossary of terms from the screenplay (like
FREMKIT, THUMPER, GOM JABBAR, etc.).

(By the way, in the book, M'uad D'ib is a constellation in the
Arakeen sky, "the one who points the way"--a constellation of a
mouse of the desert, his tail pointing to the north; in the film,
M'uad D'ib is an imaginary face in the second of Arrakis' two moons.
Disappointing--never any reference to "pointing the way.")

You've gotta see this movie, but...

First, the negative, and then I'll tell of some of the positive
aspects of the film.

The film has an incredible quantity of self-importance, as did the
books, but it wasn't nearly so oppressive in print as it was on the
screen. One previous article here mentioned that the film was
humorless for the most part, and that's very true. Comic relief
would have been very welcome, and could easily have been worked into
the screenplay. Just about the funniest part, disappointingly, took
place during a brief development of the character of Piter De Vries
played by Brad Dourif, the Mentat in the Harkonnen's employ, during
his recitation of a Mentat mnemonic concentration-enhancement drill
while in transit on an overhead monorail-type vehicle (resembling
the 7th Ave.  IRT in NYC) in the Harkonnen complex on Giedi Prime.
Watch for it; but that's about all you'll see if you're looking for
fun.

This adaptation was also interesting in its choice of which violent
scenes to use and which to avoid, along with the relative accuracy
of the violence and gore, compared with that depicted in the book.
It's interesting, too, to note throughout the film how much more
emphasis was placed on gore and bloody detail instead of upon the
relative sensuality/romanticism/loveplay that I recall from my first
reading of the book where it described the love between Chani and
Paul.

Of a piece with these two points is the way women are depicted
compared with the way I seem to recall them having been depicted (or
WANT to recall their depiction) by Herbert in the first book:
they're mostly spineless idiots, incapable of any truly forceful or
decisive activity in the film, whereas in the book, most women were
portrayed as very different from men (culturally, politically,
psychically, etc.) but as relative equals.

Certainly there are limits to what can be done in a film that runs a
little over two hours compared with the several million words in the
first book, but the liberties were in some case unnecessary and
demeaning.

Talk about unnecessary violence... in the film, all of those in the
employ of the Harkonnens were equipped with "heart plugs" (?) that
could be pulled in case of disobedience to leak out their life's
blood quickly and grossly. These things were surgically installed in
their chest and were frequently focused upon in the film. They were
gross and terrible, which was probably the desired effect. But let's
face it: the Harkonnens were bad, bad, bad; but not THIS bad.

Some examples:
        # Kenneth McMillan as Baron Vladimir Harkonnen (who acted
his part well, incidentally) isn't just grossly overweight and a
sick pedophiliac with only a small remaining kernel of the old Honor
of the Great Houses; he's seriously physically and mentally diseased
without ANY regard for human life, to whom "honor" appears to be a
concept he hasn't just forgotten, but apparently never knew. In his
introductory scene (which is quite long), we see a young beautiful
male captive enter the Baron's room, carrying flowers, with a look
of terror in his eyes, accompanied by guards. The Baron finishes his
conversation with Beast Rabban and Feyd-Rautha, and approaches
(actually, kind of floats over to) the young man, who is dressed in
transparent garments. The Baron passes beneath what appears to be a
shower of motor oil (which he clearly enjoys), and then confronts
the youth and violently embraces him. He then grabs the boy's heart
plug release valve and opens it, revelling in the violent arterial
bleeding which ensues, and sexually revelling in the rapid, terrible
death of this young man and the spray of his blood. Yecccccch. (Feyd
and the Beast look on this scene in rapturous voyeurism,
incidentally.) This scene is SO GROSS that it's almost campy--I
half-expected the Baron to turn to the corpse and ask, "Was it good
for you, too?" and light a cigarette.
        # Both of the bedroom scenes I can remember in the film are
disappointments.
                In the first, which must last AT LEAST six seconds,
featuring Francesca Annis as Jessica and Jurgen Prochnow as Duke
Leto, she, crying, turns to him and says, "I'll miss Caladan SO
MUCH!" Uh-huh. End of scene!
                In the second, featuring Brooke Shields' almost-twin
Sean Young as Chani and Kyle MacLachlan as Paul, Chani is half
sitting up in bed and is attempting to comfort Paul following one of
his prescient dreams, but, but, but she's wearing a halter top
(which appears to be part of her stillsuit's undergarments)! Um,
somehow I just can't picture Paul and Chani sharing a bed with any
clothes on. This is just plain bad interpretation and bad
direction... it would be very possible, without getting into the old
tits & ass game, to still show this scene with a little more
romanticism, and little more raw--or even refined--sensuality. Yes,
they're an attractive couple together, but they're too cute. Too
much like "teen romance" instead of the mature love story subplot it
could have been.
        # When Paul and Jessica were fleeing from the sneak attack
by the Harkonnens, and Jessica is facing the fact of her Duke's
death, and Paul is realizing the extent of his growing awareness,
she's almost a totally crippled, helpless, emotional wreck. This is
a long distance from the strong- willed, clear-thinking, but
grieving woman portrayed by Herbert. She sits weeping in the desert
for what seems to be hours and hours. (And the stilltent was greatly
missed, too.)
        # Alia, who is brilliantly played by Alicia Roanne Witt (and
someone who did her overdubbing in an almost perfect technical
tour-de-force), is shown pretty accurately in bringing about the
demise of the Baron during the Fremen attack acros the Shield Wall;
but later, when she was said to have departed the headquarters to
help slay the wounded enemy (thereby earning her title, "St. Alia of
the Knife"), all we see is about three seconds of her kind of doing
a rain dance with the knife outside the building among the wounded.
The whole point of Alia was that even at two or three years old, she
was a Reverend Mother with little or no mercy, and a full-fledged
Fremen; to act properly, she should have been looking after the
Water of the Wounded. But they pulled this punch altogether.
        # Then there's the whole question of SPIT. In the book, we
begin to realize how important water is, and how different the
Fremen customs are from those the Atreides are used to, when Stilgar
spits on the conference table in front of the Duke, where it's a
gesture of great respect (a symbolic wasting of one's own water) and
admiration. In the film, instead of using that scene (which was
totally skipped), we see the Baron Vladimir spitting on Jessica's
face as she's bound and gagged, about to meet her supposed death. So
instead of spitting being a symbol of respect and differing customs,
it's used here as an act of violence against a trussed woman.

The effects are technically disappointing, especially the worm
riding, which is almost as silly as the effects from "Plan Nine from
Outer Space." But the artistic depiction of the worms is done with
great accuracy to the drawings we might all remember from the Dune
Calendars and the "Illustrated Dune."

The Fremen weaponry ideas the filmmakers chose were just plain
stupid. They are some kind of Voice amplifiers, and they're too
boring even to explain. The ornithopters are badly done and not
accurate at all. (Gee, as a student pilot, I was really kind of
looking forward to the 'thopters, too. Forget it.)

Two scenes from the book that stood out in my mind as having great
cinematic potential were not even included in the film.
        The first, which takes place just after the Atriedes arrive
on Arrakis, is the famous dinner party scene, in which there's a
great intriguing interplay between the guests, and in which the
dialogue could have been some of the best ever filmed. Could have
ranked in memory with the Cantina scene from "Star Wars." Totally
skipped.
        The second, which takes place the evening after the dinner
party, would have had doubtful and disturbed Duncan Idaho returning
to the House after a bout of drinking Spice Beer and confronting an
outraged Jessica with his factually groundless suspicions of her
coming betrayal. This would have been a great opportunity for
Duncan, played by a really rafish Richard Jordan.  Totally skipped.

Prochnow's Duke was an exception to the mostly great casting and a
disappointment. I was expecting a deeper-voice, physically larger
man with more PRESENCE. He had great, gentle eyes, and did a great
job, but he just wasn't the right guy for the part. His voice was
too high-pitched, too gentle, too soft.

Everett McGill as Stilgar wasn't nearly as fascinating a character
as he could have been. The direction left no time for the
development of the Fremen leader's psyche, his motivation, his
ethics.

The Mentats were only sort of passable. So much more could have been
done with this discipline. Freddie Jones as Thufir Hawat was too
emotional for the human calculator.

And now on with the positive comments.

MacLachlan, although he's a pretty preppy (as mentioned by another
article writer), is appropriately regal and does a fine job as Paul
Atreides. This guy was a casting coup de grace... he really fits in
with the way he was portrayed by Herbert.

As I mentioned, Brad Dourif as Piter De Vries was pretty good as
Piter De Vries, the totally twisted Mentat. It's not his fault he
didn't get a chance to develop his character more and was seriously
crippled by bad direction.

Francesca Annis as Jessica was appropriately beautiful, with a
spectacularly pretty face (especially that nose, for some reason).
She did a truly good performance; too bad the screenwriters made her
part so damned wimpy. Annis and Prochnow made a believable royal
couple--they looked RIGHT together.  Again, it would have been
spectacular instead of just good if only they'd had the chance.

Sting as Feyd Rautha got an increidible welcome when he first
appeared on screen, at least in the theater where I saw it. He was
an almost perfect interpretation of the character, and his
performance was excellent.

The costumery was excellent as well--those Bene Gesserit robes,
headdresses, and dresses are going to stand out in my mind for a
long time to come, and some of the best cinematography in the entire
film included shots of the Bene Gesserit women simply WALKING, with
their costumes flowing about them. Very correct.

The Guild Navigators, left mostly to the readers' imagination by
Herbert, were something out of a VERY strange but vividly
appropriate dream. (They were said to have the "ability to fold
space when deep within a spice trance," when we all know that this
is a technical accomplishment rather than a psychic one, and that
the Navigators really use the spice trance to see the way rather
than to perform the ~"motion without motion" (a quote from the film)
itself. But I'm getting picky, I guess.) Their physical shape, only
dimly perceived through the spice gasses, was sort of the way I had
imagined them. (Curious, though, that the speech organ of the
Navigator should so closely resemble a deformed but articulating
human pudenda.) The rolling coffin-like monstrosity in which the
Navigator arrived in the court of the Emperor was really well-done,
and that scene is quite memorable.

The Princess Irulan (Virginia Madsen), who appropriately introduces
the story we're about to see, is played well, and she's a very
attractive actress, but except for the opening, we only see her kind
of standing around among the Emperor's court. (Yet another example
of the disappointing background roles given to the women in the
film.)

In summary, don't miss this film. It's more than just worth seeing.

But be prepared for some disappointments, and understand that
they're mostly due to the limitations of the medium and the
compression of the already extremely dense writing by Herbert. DUNE,
the first book, had at least three good major feature-length motion
pictures in it alone (perhaps most appropriately broken up along the
way the three books-within-the-first-book are divided). This single
film attempts to compress that entire long novel into a single
motion picture, and in so doing many important details get lost.

--Dwight Ernest KA2CNN  \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight
Time Inc. Editorial Technology Group, New York City
Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 \ EIES: 1228
Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jan 85 1103-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE - PART 2 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "DUNE".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Dune--review (non spoiler)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 23:29:37 MST

I should start by saying that I have never read any of the Dune
books, and can't criticise the movie based on expectations from the
books.  I've been very surprised by the mountains of bad reviews
which have come out upon the movie's release, especially after
having seen it this evening--I liked it very much, and find that
many of the complaints about the movie seem to miss the mark.

It is an almost bombastically lavish production, and very stylish.
In fact, it wouldn't be too off the mark to claim that the "stars"
of the film are the sets.  If most of the crop of SF movies are
high-tech, and reflect a modernist sensibility, then perhaps "Dune"
is the first post-modernist SF movie.  Its sets are H.G. Wells meets
Art Deco, and are very very beautiful.  Some $40M was spent on the
movie, and it mostly shows.

I was most impressed by the complete realization of these other
worlds; I was drawn in totally by this fantasy vision.  Yes, it is a
bit tedious at times.  Yes, situations can get a little confusing,
at least for those who haven't read the books (in this regard it
reminded me of the Bakshi "Lord of the Rings" movie, which was
similarly incomprehensible.)  But I was so impressed by the force of
the film's vision and its sheer scope that I didn't care to nitpick.

This is a dark, brooding SF-noir film, and almost totally without
humor-- some characters are bizarre or funny, but the movie takes
itself VERY seriously.  But it is this earnestness which makes it so
appealing.  It can be appreciated as a serious myth or as pure camp.
Either way, these would have been destroyed if it self-consciously
played with humor a la Star Wars.  Kyle MacLachlan's Paul Muad'Dib
Atreides is such a perfect cypher of a character, someone every
techie can imagine being, that I thought the subtitle of this movie
was "Nerd Messiah."  The other characters are wonderfully realized,
too.

  -- /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer
sdyer@bbncca.ARPA

------------------------------

From: dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight)
Subject: Dune review (spoiler)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 13:12:28 MST

        My reactions after having seen Dune are very mixed.  First
of all, I should mention that I've read the book twice and enjoyed
it greatly.  From all of the terrible pre-reviews I'd seen about
Dune I went into the theater not expecting too much.
        The movie started out rather well I thought.
   <Enter face of Emperor's daughter fading in and out of existence>
The political situation is laid out for the viewer to comprehend and
all of the important parties involved are introduced.  The plot
seemed to be following the book like a shadow.  We get to see all of
the facets of Paul's development and his devotion to his father, the
Duke, comes through quite well.  I really liked their shields.
        After they arrive on Arrakis the film still looks pretty
good.  The scene where the Duke goes out to inspect the spice mining
was very well done and also the scene with the "seeker" in Paul's
bedroom went off very well.  Sure there were minor things I didn't
like; the Navigators looked like a cross between Jabba and Leto II,
the Baron was a bit skinny and seemed less "dark" (if ya know what I
mean).  But the settings looked fairly good.  Many little things I
didn't like I can trace back to my comparing the film to the book;
in other words, things that might displease a Dune fan, but not the
avg. movie goer.
        The trouble really starts for this film when the Baron
attacks the Duke.  The battle scenes looked very poor; alot of
people just running around with an occasional explosion.  Not at all
realistic in my opinion.  My next-to-biggest disappointment was that
the "fierce" Fremen didn't strike me as being all that deadly.  The
entire Fremen culture is not developed for the viewer to the point
where we really understand them.  (The stillsuits are explained very
well in the film but where are the face masks and they are always
forgetting to exhale through their mouthpieces.)  We hear Paul tell
his mother to walk non-rythmically but in the next scene they go
marching across the desert.  Even the Fremen are guilty of this.
One good point was that even though the thumpers looked rather
perverse (in and out and in and out) Paul's first worm ride looked
really neat! (neat - a ancient term meaning megafun)
        The biggest failure of the movie in its post-"Baron invades
Arraki" part is to protray Paul as the "superior being" (sorry,
can't remember how to spell the H..............).  The movie goer is
given no idea of just what the heck the spice has done to Paul's
conscienceness.  The images that the film uses to try to convey this
facet of Paul are totally obscure.  Paul's obsessively constant
remarks about Dune's smaller moon are never explained.
        The ending.... maybe I have got complete amnesia, but I
don't remember Paul making it rain at the end of Dune.  Making it
rain would only kill off the worms and sandtrout.  Also, there is a
narrative saying that after Paul's victory over the Emperor at the
Shield Wall there was at last peace in the universe.  Like hell!
Paul brought a jihad and that sure weren't peaceful!  The ending to
this movie may have been ok for a movie goer, but for this Dune fan
it left a lot to be desired.  I'm a Sting fan so I liked his fight
at the end with Paul.  In fact, the way Gunry Hallek wanted to do
all sorts of nasty things to Fyern(sp)(Sting), I was mentally
rooting for Sting to win.  But anyways, I've seen advertisements for
Dune that gave Sting top billing!  That last scene is the only scene
he has any importance in.
        To summarize: First half was ok, second half lousy.  Liked
the worms, though.  Net result, there are tons of characters in Dune
(the book).  Dune (the movie) introduces them all one way for
another, but most of them never get developed one bit.  The result
is a somewhat confusing movie.  This production should have been an
eight hour mini-series.  There is just too much in Dune (the book)
to put into a 140 minute film.
        Hope this review was readable, sorry if it wasn't.
                               Dwight Bartholomew

UUCP:{decvax,icalqa,ihnp4,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs}!pur-ee!pur-phy!dub
    {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!dub

------------------------------

From: don@allegra.UUCP (D. Mitchell)
Subject: Herbert versus Lynch
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 02:49:10 MST

If you came to see a David Lynch movie (as I did), you will be
delighted.  There is no hint of cute robots, and everything is not
made out of Chrome and Corningware.  This movie is not cute.  It is
dark, Byzantine and outlandish.

If you read Dune, I don't know what you will think.  Herbert is
there, but so is Lynch.  One of my friends is very upset by Lynch's
screenplay.

Movie critics on PBS (the two guys with the dog) hated it, but they
clearly didn't follow the story very well.  One complained about the
gratuitous violence of tearing a boy's nipple off.  It was not his
nipple, and the movie made that clear (it was a surgical implant,
but I don't want to say more about the plot).  The point is, this is
a very complex movie.  Lynch is not use to making movies for general
consumption.  I have heard that Lucas was worried that the last
Starwars movie might lose the audiance, and Dune's plot is much more
intricate.

The movie has obvious flaws.  Like all Sci-Fi epics, the acting was
so bad it made the audience laugh at times when I saw it.  They also
laughed when people were shown riding sandworms.  I think the
non-Dune-readers thought the sandworms were a silly idea.

------------------------------

From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth)
Subject: (almost) short Dune review for those who've read the Book
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 01:53:46 MST

If you enjoyed the book as much as I did, you will be disappointed
by the screenplay's complete inability to encompass the book.  Of
course this is what you all probably expected, just wanted to
confirm it - go see the movie like you were planning to (or already
have).  The movie is reasonably faithful to the 'main' plot of the
book (Atreides vs Harkonnen), the biggest let-down, besides above
mentioned FLAW extraordinare, is the ending: none of the awesome
power that the book managed to express is present in the movie.  In
fact, the mood of the entire movie is so exaggerated that it isn't
particularly funny (it seems *everyone* has to whisper mysteriously
for about 70% of the movie!). What Herbert was able to pull off so
well and believably, the movie just doesn't. Another big gripe is
that the screeenwriter simply didn't have the ability to translate
much of what was going on in the plot without resorting to listening
in to character's thoughts left and right.  Last gripe: since it's
obvious they weren't going to be able to to fit in anything but the
main plot, they should have concentrated on making that much smooth
and believable.  There were many scenes or dialogues that really
didn't have any meaning in the context of what the movie was
presenting.  Sure they were in the book, but wouldn't have made any
sense to any poor sod who hadn't read the book because they didn't
relate to anything previously shown in the movie.

Of course, they must have done something right, 'cause the guy I saw
it with, who hadn't read the book, nor is a devoted SF-lover, liked
it and was inspired to get the book - even after hearing all my
bitching!  I'm just very biased and really was praying for much more
than the movie gave, that's all.

"and remember, Christmas spirit is -- not what you drink"

Jeff Lewis
{decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie

------------------------------

From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: The flying nun...er, baron
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 13:26:31 MST

Dune movie review -- probably spoiler, possibly flame.

If you haven't subjected yourself to DUNE the movie yet, DON'T GO.
It's a horrible, horrible, travesty of the story.  I'm VERY short of
time right now; possibly I will flame at length later.

Briefly, the entire political reason behind the Atreides moving to
Arrakis is twisted and blurred.  The power relationships within the
empire are distorted beyond recognition.  The social structure of
Arrakis and the Fremen is not mentioned, or totally redesigned (and
stupidly).  Paul's character and motivation are completely different
from the book.  In general, the characters and their relationships
are completely different from the book (or completely absent -- the
relationships, that is).  For example, Paul's main motivation is
given as revenging his father.  He actively starts the Jihad (which
he spent most of the book trying avoid).  Paul identifies himself as
the "hand of god".  At the end of the movie, it rains on Arrakis.

There is no vestige of the complexity and depth of invention from
the book left in this pitiful butchered hulk.

[For those in it only for the visuals, it's pretty.  The sandworms
were VERY well done.]

On a scale of -4 to +4, give a a -3.5 .

I make no pretense of judging it apart from the book.  By using the
title Dune and claiming to be "based on the novel by Frank Herbert",
it ties itself to the book; it should at least tell some part of the
story told in the book, about some people recognizably similar to
the people in the book.  It doesn't.

I don't think it could be considered a decent film even on its own.

DON'T SEE IT.  YOU'LL REGRET IT.

                -- David Dyer-Bennet
                -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

From: gtaylor@lasspvax.UUCP (Greg Taylor)
Subject: Re: DUNE Review-
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 12:08:59 MST

Summary:

I gotta agree with the general press so far, but perhaps be a little
less graceful. The story is a muddled mess. The internal dialogues
are poorly used (reminded me of a Certs commercial)-but what could
be done. TOTO's score (somebody had to be *really* coked up to have
thought of that) is at best totally ignorable and at worst
ridiculous (notably the electric guitar chord that keeps showing up
while the Fremen are up riding on the giant sofa bolster-OOPS,
*sandworm*.

Good stuff: Visually, the movie is *so* well done that you wind up
filled with a sort of rage at the fact that everything else is so
poorly done. As science fiction, the sense of an "other" but
complete world is brilliantly done. In fact, there is this
occasional sense watching Lynch trying to control the morass that
the little details (the little "squash the mousie" cocktail comes to
mind here)nearly do it:it's the sense of detail visually that
*almost* carries the whole bloody film. That sense of detail is
nearly totally lacking in the rest of the stuff. The good roles are
all bit parts. That should warn you of something.

Lynch does a creditable job of using the visual details of the film
to carry his narration. The murk of his earlier films is strongly
here (my SO suggested that the Guild steersman was the baby in
Eraserhead, grown and holding a respectable job), but he's got too
much to do, and too many loose ends.

As a feast for the eyes and the imagination, give it a 9.  As a
faithful version of the Herbert, uh..... give it a pass on the basis
of extenuating circumstances.  As a movie, give it a crutch.

Greg

------------------------------

From: don@allegra.UUCP (D. Mitchell)
Subject: Dune should be 4 hours
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 16:18:26 MST

I would like to know if there is really a 4-hour version of Dune.
Is that just a rumor?  I have certainly seen stills that were not in
the movie (e.g. Shadout Mapes confronting Jessica with a crysknife).
My main objection to the movie was that it was edited down to
incoherence.  (Why show Kynes being cast out when you are never told
he is the secret leader of the Fremen?)

If there is a 4 hour version, it is certain to appear in Greenwich
Village and a few other pockets of civilization.  (OK, that should
have gone to net.gloat.  Sorry.)

I guess a lot of people are objecting to Lynch's overall vision of
Dune.  I think that is just conservatism.  Lynch has an amazing
imagination.  So don't miss this movie because someone tells you it
is too weird or because someone thinks there should be comedy relief
(what an appalling suggestion for Dune!).

If you read the interviews with Lynch, you will see that he has a
lot of respect for the story (maybe more than it deserves).  He has
thought about what things would look like after an anti-automation
revolution.  And how does the corrupt and Byzantine politics of the
time effect the imagery.  Should we be shocked if Dune looks more
like Satyricon than Starwars?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 85 0044-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 6 Jan 1985       Volume 10 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:

            Administrivia - Hallelujah!,
            Books - Adams (4 msgs) & Goulart & Powers &
                    Robinson & Sucharitkul,
            Films - Movie/Book Combinations,
            Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 85 21:50:09 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

        HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!   It seems that we have finally solved our
problems in regards to the connection between SF-LOVERS on the ARPA
network and NET.SF-LOVERS on USENET.   When SRI changed machines,
our connection was lost.  We now have a UNIX machine here at Rutgers
and we are connected to the network and have re-established our
connection between the two newsgroups.
        This means that messages mailed to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS will be
queued up for the digest as before but will now also go to
net.sf-lovers on the usenet automatically.  Messages passing through
net.sf-lovers on the usenet will now be forwarded to me for the
digest so the people on the ARPA network can read and enjoy.
        A very special thanks to the following people: Mel Pleasant
(Pleasant@rutgers) for writing the code and helping to set things up
for us; and Donn Seeley (Donn@utah-cs) for forwarding usenet
messages to me in the interim.
        And now, on with the show.......

------------------------------

From: mss!jpj@topaz (J. P. Jenal)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book?
Date: 3 Jan 85 19:18:28 GMT

I was gifted with this novel for Christmas and I would definitely
agree that it is a good (and fast) read - assuming that you enjoy
the Adams style.  However, I think that this story has more of a
moral character than the earlier novels - which seemed to be nothing
more than fun and fluff.  I won't prejudice anyone by giving my
views on the intent of the Epilogue but I would be interested in
hearing what others thought Adams was trying to say.

Cheers...

        Jim Jenal               (aka ...!scgvaxd!mss!jpj)
        Mayfield Senior School  ( "  ...!ihnp4!mss!jpj)

------------------------------

From: ucsfcgl!rl@topaz (Robert Langridge%CGL)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book?
Date: 28 Dec 84 18:13:29 GMT

There is indeed a new Douglas Adams book, the "*Fourth* Book in the
Hitchhikers Trilogy", entitled "So Long, and Thanks For All the
Fish".  (Harmony Books, a division of Crown Publishers, NY, 1985.
Price?  I don't know, mine was a present and the price was deleted).

In summary, I was disappointed.  Perhaps it is difficult to keep up
the frenetic zaniness of the earlier books, and although I would
never accuse Adams of writing clear and unambiguous prose, this
volume is particularly unfocussed.  Even the celebrated non
sequitors and incongruities are in short supply.

Ford Prefect is present (though in a diminished role), and there is
a major new character, an attractive lady named Fenchurch, and a
major new minor character, Wonko the Sane, who lives in a house
whose roof

        "...folded back on itself like something that M.C.Escher,
        had he been given to hard nights on the town, which it is no
        part of this narrative's purpose to suggest was the case,
        though it is sometimes hard, looking at his pictures,
        particularly the one with all the awkward steps, not to
        wonder, might have dreamed up after having been on one,..."

Advice?  Wait for the paperback, then buy it to occupy a short plane
trip.

Bob Langridge                   (UUCP: [...]!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!rl)
Computer Graphics Laboratory    (ARPA: rl@ucbvax
926 Medical Sciences                      or
University of California               langridge@sumex-aim)
San Francisco
CA  94143

------------------------------

From: mtxinu!ed@topaz (Ed Gould)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book?
Date: 28 Dec 84 20:36:46 GMT

I saw a published comment on the forthcoming fourth book in the
Hitchhiker's trilogy.  The thing I noted about it was that the
collection is *still* (explicitly by the author) a trilogy!

Ed Gould
{ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed

------------------------------

From: ukma!david@topaz (David Herron, NPR Lover)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book?
Date: 29 Dec 84 06:02:39 GMT

Yeah....It's been done already, but here goes anyway.....

The new book is titled "Good bye, and Thanks For All The Fish".  It
concerns the life of Arthur Dent after he has saved the universe
multiple times, and is tired of being a galactic wanderer, and goes
back to Earth.  Yes, it is still there.  I won't tell any more, but
will include the obligatory quote that the other reviewer had.

        THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, in a moment of
        reasoned lucidity which is almost unique among its current
        tally of five million, nine hundred and seventy-three
        thousand, five hundred and nine pages, says of the Sirius
        Cybernetics Corporation products that 'it is very easy to be
        blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of
        achievement you get from getting them to work at all.

        'In other words -- and this is the rock-solid principle on
        which the whole of the Corporation's Galaxywide success is
        founded -- their fundamental design flaws are completely
        hidden by their superficial design flaws.'

He also meets a girl, falls in love at first sight, and spends many
chapters trying to meet up with her again.  These scenes go like
some scenes in _The Lonely Guy_......  It's a good read.  Not sure
though if his intent was simply to finish up some loose ends or to
start a new storyline.

David Herron; ARPA-> "ukma!david"@ANL-MCS (Try the arpa address w/
and w/o the quotes, I have had much trouble with both.)

UUCP   (follow one of these routes)
{ucbvax,unmvax,boulder,research}!{anlams,anl-mcs} ---\  vvvvvvvvvvv
                                                      >-!ukma!david
   {cbosgd!hasmed,mcvax!qtlon,vax135,mddc}!qusavx ---/  ^^^^^^^^^^^

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  2 Jan 1985 10:59:22-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: addition to SF-LOVERS...ARPA

I have been an avid SF fan for years, since I was weaned on "Runaway
Robot" at a tender young age (quite by accident).  Of all the
wonders I have seen in my mind from all the best writers (and the
worst), I have never heard of Ron Goulart.  Who, or should I say
what, is a Ron Goulart?

Gaylene

p.s. Also, I saw Dune! The best rendition of a SF novel I have seen
yet!! One tid bit - the movie was dedicated to Dino's father.

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: GATES OF ANUBIS
Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:00 GMT

                   THE ANUBIS GATES by Tim Powers
                          Ace, 1983, $295.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This book got a lot of rave reviews, so I was really looking
forward to something special in it.  Maybe I was expecting too much.
Oh, it's an okay book, but not up to its raves.

     The premise (as best I can explain it) is that Brendan Doyle, a
professor whose specialty is a little-known early Nineteenth Century
poet named William Ashbless, gets involved in a time-travel scheme.
Unbeknownst to him, however, an ancient Egyptian sorcerer is also
trying to use the "time gates" and Doyle soon finds himself stranded
in 1810, with the evil sorcerer hot on his trail.  Also involved is
a werewolf who can transfer from one body to another and various
other supernatural characters.  The purpose of the werewolf at times
seems to be to confuse the reader--several characters change bodies
with him, so it's almost impossible to figure out who's who.  This
isn't helped by the fact that some of the characters also spend time
masquerading as other people, or by the fact that the sorcerer is
creating ka's--exact clones--of the main characters.  Not only can
you not tell the players without a scorecard, you can't even tell
them *with* a scorecard!

     As you might guess, trying to keep all this sorted out detracts
from some of the pleasure in reading the book.  There are a couple
of other twists thrown in, but some of what the author seems to
expect to surprise the reader can be predicted well before.  (The
blurb on the back of the book doesn't help.) Powers does do a good
job of conveying a sense of horror in Romany's (or is it
Romanelli's) underground laboratories and many of the individual
incidents are well-constructed and exciting.  It's just trying to
put them together into a coherent story that doesn't work so well.

     This isn't the sort of book you can skim through half-asleep
before bedtime.  It should probably be read all in one sitting.  (To
be fair, I should point out that I read it over a period of two
weeks, so perhaps that was part of the problem.)  If you're willing
to put in the effort, there is a lot to like here, but you've really
got to dig to find it.
                              Evelyn C. Leeper
                              ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jan 85 20:05:45 est
From: norm@maryland (Norm Glick)

SUBJECT:  Spider Robinson--MINDKILLER

I showed the SF-LOVERS correspondence about MINDKILLER to my author
wife.  She felt strongly about the discussion and generated the
following response for me to share with you.

                    Norman Glick

     I am jumping into your discussion of Spider Robinson with both
feet!  The controversy interested me since I am a professional
writer. (Some of my books are kids' adventure science fiction
novels, one of which--MINDBENDERS, Scholastic, 1984--is about mind
control.)
     As a teenager, my primary reading interest was SF.  I'm not
into the field so heavily now, although my teenage daughter is.
Several months ago she recommended Spider Robinson to me.  But it
was the ARPANET correspondence that finally tempted me to buy
MINDKILLER.
     I agree that there is a lot of good stuff in the book.
Robinson creates characters that I care about a lot--particularly
Joe and Karen.  He also has some wonderful imagery--which always
adds to my enjoyment of a book.  As for the Heinlein comparison, I
will go on record as saying that I was a rabid Heinlein fan until he
lost his self-discipline--in the middle of THE MOON IS A HARSH
MISTRESS, I think.  After that, there are simply too many words.
(No, it's not like AMADEUS where Mozart is accused of having too
many musical notes!)
     I read a recent interview with Heinlein in the "Washington
Post" in which he proudly pointed out that his contracts no longer
allow any editing of his stuff.  He said something like "If I have a
comma in the middle of a word, they have to leave it."
Unfortunately, he'd probably be better off if he did allow someone
to cut through the excess verbiage.  One of my basic thoughts about
writing is that as soon as you have the freedom to do WHATEVER YOU
WANT, you're not producing your best stuff.
     Robinson has the nice, tight style of the old master.  He also
writes sex scenes that Heinlein never could.  (I have been struck by
the fact that maybe only Heinlein could write a boring orgy.)  The
bondage scene in MINDKILLER is a turn-on--but Robinson takes it a
wonderful step farther by exploiting the humor of what happens.
     However, I found one aspect of MINDKILLER seriously
disappointing.  (I have a problem in talking about it without
spoiling the end of the book for others who may want to read it.  So
I hope you will pardon me if I become a bit oblique.)  Because of
the premise Robinson sets up, the plot resolution simply CAN'T be
intrinsically satisfying.  Think about why the end of THE PUPPET
MASTERS is so fulfilling.  Robinson has set up a situation where the
reader can't get that kind of vicarious kick.  For the book to have
really worked on that level, I think Joe and Karen would have had to
have found the "mindkiller" earlier.  With that out of the way, they
could have gone on to confront some other substantial threat
(integral to the story)--so that the reader could feel satisfied at
the end.  Robinson apparently had some worries about the ending
since he brings in another villain at the last minute--but he's not
important enough to the story.  (And the threat he represents
doesn't occupy enough space.)  When I finished the book, I felt let
down-- despite the warm fuzzies in the last paragraph. (One more
complaint about the satisfaction delivered by the ending-- and I
would be curious to know whether this represents a difference
between male and female readers. I would have liked to have found
out how Joe and Karen worked out their personal relationship--rather
than just being left to assume that they did.)
     I wonder if others had the same reactions.  Of course, if
Robinson hadn't written an engaging and provocative story, I
wouldn't be talking about any of this at all-- because I would have
put it down long before I got to the end.
     Let me add that in the middle of going through this careful
analysis of MINDKILLER, I was struck with an interesting irony.
("God is an iron.")  In one of my own books, DOOMSTALKER, which is
part of Scholastic's MICRO ADVENTURE series of fast-paced kids'
adventure stories with computer activities, I think I set myself up
with a similar structural predicament, although I do provide a
strong alternate set of villains.  I hadn't even realized the
problem until I thought about MINDKILLER.
                         Ruth Glick

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  2 Jan 1985 13:09:41-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul

On Somtow Sucharitkul, I've read "Mall World" and found it to be
very strange. The book was very scattered (i.e. hard to follow, not
much character development, too many loose ends). I'm not going to
pass any judgement on his writing just the book in particular. Has
he written anything else that I could get a better perspective from?

By the way, does anyone have any other information on him, other
than what else he's written? (i.e. who is he? where did he come
from? is he actually a "he"? or?)

Gaylene

------------------------------

From: kcarroll@utzoo.UUCP (Kieran A. Carroll)
Subject: Movie/book combinations
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 14:38:31 MST

I'm not sure of this, but I think that there has been at least one
other SF movie made, if not at the same time that the book was being
written, then at least in concert with the author of the book: the
movie Destination Moon, based on a book by Heinlein (rocketship
Galileo?), and filmed with Heinlein's active cooperation. Does
anybody out there know more about this?
   I find myself unable to include "Dune" in this class of
multi-media presentations, perhaps because Herbert's sequels have
demonstrated to my satisfaction that he is no longer a writer of
science-fiction...

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Subject: Dr. Who (Tom Baker) Scarf "Recipe" Request
Date: 01 Jan 85 09:28:49 EST (Tue)
From: Marshall Rose <mrose@udel-dewey>

Quite some time ago, someone posted instructions for knitting a
scarf like the one Tom Baker wore as the Dr.  I lost the
instructions!  Could someone please send me (and not the list) a
copy?

Thanks,
/mtr

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 1985 21:45:06 PST
Subject: Dr. Who on Videotape?
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

Does anyone know where one can purchase videotapes of Dr. Who?  The
Tom Baker episodes have been shown here in LA, but I would like to
see some of the other ones.

How about tapes of the Prisoner??

Caution: I am looking for VHS american format tapes.  I know
Prisoner tapes are availible from the Six of One (fan club) but,
they are in PAL format, which will not play on american sets.

                        Alan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 85 0124-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jan 1985       Volume 10 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:

           Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Eddings & Varley &
                   Vinge (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                   Collector's Editions,
           Films - Star Trek IV,
           Television - V (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME
Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:03 GMT

                THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME by John Brunner
               Del Rey, 1983 (paperback 1984), $3.50.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This book has been compared to such works as Stapledon's LAST
AND FIRST MEN, in its description of the sweep of history on a
planet beset by massive, frequent climatic changes.  I would liken
it more to something like Michener's HAWAII or THE SOURCE, because
it covers, not the entire course of the species' history, but just
the part from the earliest scientific glimmerings to the age of
interplanetary and even interstellar travel.

     Brunner has concentrated on science as the central theme of
this book-- or rather, the scientist, constantly battling public
opinion based on ignorance and superstition.  While his parallels to
current-day earth are at times a little heavy-handed (cults that
believe in spiritual communication with beings on other worlds, and
the rationality of the "clean environmentalists" versus the
short-sightedness of the "full speed ahead manufacturers"), he does
give us a sense of a species constantly at war with a much more
hostile environment than our own.  Meteor storms, ice ages, and
radiation poisoning work against them at every turn, yet with the
help of science/technology, they survive each crisis to rise to
greater heights.  If some of Brunner's earlier works seemed a bit on
the pessimistic side (in particular, THE SHEEP LOOK UP, a morbidly
fascinating tale of technological disaster), he has recovered from
that depression and is now gloriously optimistic.

     The species (never actually named) is like us in many ways, but
unlike us in others (the revelation of some of the major differences
is best left to the context of the book).  They are never fully
described--we know they have mantles, and they have pressurized
tubules which keep them erect, but we never get a complete picture.
This is because the book is told from their point of view, and no
one writes a complete biological description of a human being in a
novel told from a human point of view.  Their society, or rather,
societies are similar, yet subtly different.  We feel close to them,
but we never forget their alienness.

     There are seven sections, covering the history from early
feudal states to interstellar travel.  In each, we see scientists as
the main characters.  Oh, they may not think of themselves as such,
but they are nonetheless.  From the earliest sea-farer who sees a
chance to gain a profit by trading the knowledge of one area for
that of another, to the biologists who solve the sterility that may
be the species' biggest challenge, to the scientists who build the
spaceships, the characters are interested in knowledge.  While most
people are still believing in astrology, the scientists are mapping
the stars, noting their changes, plotting the orbits of the
planets--not to predict the future, but to better understand the
universe and their place in it.

     The quibbles I have with the book are minor.  Brunner cheats on
his naming of alien creatures et al.  There are entirely too many
"sharqs" and "mollusqs" floating around (accidental pun there!).  In
fact, his solution for coming up with an alien term often seems to
involve merely changing one letter of the English term to a 'q'.
And his planetary system is entirely too close to our own: Sunbride
is a thinly disguised Venus and Swiftyouth is an even more obvious
Mars, with its seasonal changes that scientists in later chapters
attribute to melting polar caps.  There are the two gas giants,
Steadyman and Stolidchurl.  Even the events mirror our own--we see
an incident where two characters who have discovered/invented lenses
and the telescope hold a telescope up to Steadyman (I believe) and
see satellites circling it which could not be seen with the naked
eye.

     In the end this is what prevents THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME from
being another LAST AND FIRST MEN--Stapledon didn't attempt to create
alien names, but he did give us a sense of strangeness throughout
his work--though the race was human, it evolved into something we
couldn't quite understand.  Brunner, in his attempt to emphasize the
strangeness of his species, overdoes it on the terminology and it
shows.  Yet this is a minor irritation.  Stapledon, it must be
admitted, concentrated more on the species than on individuals;
Brunner shows us individuals and how they interact with their time
in history.  THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME as a whole is a well-written,
well- thought-out story, full of interesting characters, exciting
events, and a justification of science that is just what we need in
these days of anti- technological Luddites.

                              Evelyn C. Leeper
                              ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland)
Subject: Re: THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME
Date: 3 Jan 85 17:58:47 GMT

> And his planetary system is entirely too close to our own:
> Sunbride is a thinly disguised Venus and Swiftyouth is an even
> more obvious Mars, with its seasonal changes that scientists in
> later chapters attribute to melting polar caps.  There are the two
> gas giants, Steadyman and Stolidchurl.  Even the events mirror our
> own--we see an incident where two characters who have
> discovered/invented lenses and the telescope hold a telescope up
> to Steadyman (I believe) and see satellites circling it which
> could not be seen with the naked eye.

        I will admit that I have not read this book up front. (I
have it on order) However, the above quibbles don't seem like
problems to me. They seem like what I would expect to happen. There
are theories of planitary development that would tend to indicate
that a lot of systems should be a great deal like our own. Also, the
development of the telescope and discovery of the moons of the gas
giant should happen together. As is said somewhere (I believe it was
Heinlien)

        When the time comes in history to Railroad, you Railroad.

        This can be loosely translated as when all the elements of a
new discovery are available in a society. That discovery will occur.
If Galileo did not invent the telescope and discover Jupiters moons,
someone else in that time period would have.

                                        Randy Buckland
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

Date: 3 January 1985, 19:17:27 CST
From: U44767%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Edward R. Zawacki )
Subject: The Belgariad

For those of you out there who are Fantasy lovers the Belgariad is a
must.  According to the 'About the author' section at the rear David
Eddings went about writing this series of books to test out some
literary techniques...well I for one hope that he just keeps on
testing.

There are five books in the series the first being 'Pawn of
Prophecy'.  Not only is the story VERY good but he manages to
include his own particular brand of humor (actually he seems to
manage to state the mundane in a unique way so that something
commonplace suddenly seems hilarious.)

As for the story...it is virtually flawless and I doubt that unless
you read the books two or three times as I did that you'll be able
to find ANYTHING wrong. The things that I have found are in no way
significant to the story.

The five books are (in order): 'Pawn of Prophecy', 'Queen of Sorcery',
'Magician's Gambit', 'Castle of Wizardry', and 'Enchanter's End Game'.
Once again I hope you read them and enjoy them as much as I have.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 1985 21:41:39 PST
Subject: Varley's Persistence of Vision
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

The Science Fiction book club is selling Persistence of Vision by
Varley for $2.50, on sale (bookclub hardback editions).  Since it
was mentioned that the current reissue of the paperback version
lacks the great original cover and is missing a few pages from one
of the stories, people may want to get it from the book club (if you
are a member, or join).

In case you are a member, but didn't get the mailing, the order
number of the book is 34413.

                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 18:49:05 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V9 #227
From: Kevin <Mackey.PA@XEROX.ARPA>

"Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES is back in print as a trade paperback.  I
forget the publisher; such books are unwelcome in these offices."
-- duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA

Lest anyone get a bad idea of Xerox and Science Fiction, we (in Palo
Alto at Systems Development) have a Science Fiction library here in
our building. I'll see that a copy of TRUE NAMES finds its way into
the library. I've been waiting for the publication after reading
favorable reviews from SF-LOVERS.

~Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 85 17:32 PST
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: True Names by V. Vinge

I first read True Names several years ago in the Binary Star #5
edition.  I recently read it again.  Vinge has an *excellent* grasp
of where computer technology is taking us, and the possible effects
on society.

For example, he mentions hackers (before the media blitz),
"worldnet", and most astonishingly, "interactive novels," which only
became available recently (Fahrenheit 451 and HitchHiker's Guide to
the Galaxy).

His grasp of comouter technology is not surprising, considering that
he is a professor of computer science.  FORTH hackers may recall an
article he wrote about teaching FORTH in "FORTH dimensions."

"True Names" *should* have been out by now, from Bluejay books, but
due to non-computer-error, it isn't.  It *WILL* be illustrated and
will have an afterword by Dr. Marvin Minsky.

I am told that a sequel to "The Peace War" is in the works.  I'm
ready to buy a copy.

Tom Perrine
Logicon - OSD
{tom\@logicon}

------------------------------

From: rna!dan@topaz
Subject: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?
Date: 4 Jan 85 00:13:00 GMT

        Have others read the Zelazny novels about the character
Dilvish ?  Any comments ?
        I enjoyed them quite a bit. I first read "The Changing Land"
but then picked up the other one (I forget its title). This seconds
takes place before "The Changing Land" but was apparently published
after it. Anyone know the story behind this curiousity ?
        Any other novels coming on Dilvish ?

                                        Dan

------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?
Date: 5 Jan 85 00:44:12 GMT

Do you mean 'Dilvish the Damned'?  This was billed as a collection
of short stories, I think, though they do sort of tie together.  The
stories concern Dilvish's search for Jelerak, and one tells why
Jelerak damned Dilvish in the first place. [Dilvish interrupted him
when he was about to perform a human sacrifice for some 'black'
reason.]  It doesn't say much about how Dilvish got out of hell,
though.

If there are other Dilvish stories, I'd like to know about them.

                                                -Dragon
UUCP: ...seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 85 10:10:51 EST
From: Catherine Cunningham <ccunning@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: collectors editions

     The discussions on the relative merits of collectors/limited
editions has inspired me to start a collection of my own.  However,
I know almost nothing on how to begin, and I'd appreciate any info.
I'm also interested in getting a first edition copy of "Dune",
anyone know approximately how rare (and expensive) this will be, and
where to start looking?

Thanks,
  Cathy Cunningham    (ccunning@bbncct.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Jan 85 23:48:38-EST
From: Thomas Y. Galloway <TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: STIV/Varley

During the meet-the-pros party at LACon, I talked to John Varley for
a few minutes. He mentioned that he had been asked to write Star
Trek IV, but had declined.  Its really too bad; Varley's
interpretation of the ST universe would have been very interesting.

tyg

------------------------------

From: tekred!alexl@topaz (Alexander R. Lopez)
Subject: Any "V" fans out there.......?
Date: 1 Jan 85 17:22:48 GMT

How do you like the way the plot with the "star child" is going?

From the miniseries I thought that it would be a hack, but so far
they've kept it toned down. I hope they keep her powers undefined
for awhile. The episode dealing with the clone seemed short but
better that then carrying it on and on......

       Now we know the real origins of System V and Dec V.....

                                        joan (alex's wife)

------------------------------

From: allegra!don@topaz (D. Mitchell)
Subject: V and other SF on TV
Date: 4 Jan 85 11:01:18 GMT

I watch "V" too, but I think it's pretty poor.  It's basically a
soap opera.  Like a lot of American TV, it preaches too much.

Star Trek suffered from that too, but at least it was produced by
people who had a love of science fiction.  If you remember what was
going on in the late 60's, it is surprising how propagandistic is
was.  A lot of episodes put down the youth culture of that time and
the women's movement.  There was even one horrible show that ended
with Kirk reading the US constitution to a room full of savages
after they had finally killed the last commie on their planet.
Complete with the stars and stripes waving in the background!

"Street Hawk" looks bad.  It stars Rex Smith, a beautiful "teen
idol" that the big record companies grew in a nutrient vat
somewhere.  I don't think he has ever been popular, but he is always
being promoted by Big Money.

To tell you the truth, the only TV Sci-Fi series I enjoy is Dr. Who.
But, that is another newsgroup.  Ciao.

------------------------------

From: houxm!gregbo@topaz (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Any "V" fans out there.......?
Date: 4 Jan 85 19:59:48 GMT

> From: alexl@tekred.UUCP (Alexander R. Lopez)

> How do you like the way the plot with the "star child" is going?

Not bad.  As long as they keep off her powers, and stick to the
triangle ro- mance between herself, her mother and Kyle I think it's
ok.

> From the miniseries I thought that it would be a hack, but so far
> they've kept it toned down. I hope they keep her powers undefined
> for awhile. The episode dealing with the clone seemed short but
> better that then carrying it on and on......

So do I.

I was wondering, given that the show doesn't really have high
ratings, but does not have awful ratings either, do you think
they'll go for more than one season?  At first I doubted it but now
I think they'll last two seasons.  Maybe the show will take off like
Hill Street did.
                Baby tie your hair back in a long white bow ...
                Meet me in the field, behind the dynamo ...

Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 85 0145-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jan 1985       Volume 10 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART 3 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: patcl@tekecs.UUCP (Pat Clancy)
Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 22:42:07 MST

>I'm sure they had a big budget for this movie, but it would
>probably have to be a lot bigger in order to make it look as though
>people were moving in zero g...  Maybe we'll just have to live with
>things like that for awhile longer until some special effects
>genius invents artificial gravity.

Actually, it was done quite well in 2001 (shuttle to space station)
within a presumably reasonable budget.

Pat Clancy, Tektronix
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,hplabs}!tektronix!tekecs!patcl

------------------------------

From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag)
Subject: two thousand and ten mistakes
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 14:14:31 MST

  So many people have already posted articles pointing out glaring
mistakes and inconsistancies that I hesitate to add to the list.
But what the heck.

Let's see.  Someone mentioned the burning shield during the 'air
braking' maneuver.  Did you notice that the shield seemed to be four
gas-filled bags?  Did you wonder how they stood all of that
pressure, ablation, heat, etc.  without being destroyed during the
first 2 seconds of atmospheric entry?

When they were told to leave, did you wonder why nobody asked how
far away they had to be in 2 days?  It seems as though minimal fuel
expenditure would have gotten them much further away in two days
than ALL of the fuel in one ship did in ten minutes.

Did you notice that HAL's speech synthesizer seemed to require
almost his full memory?  Current technology would allow speech
synthesis systems which would work much easier.

And the piggyback ride with the two ships!  The center of mass was
obviously out of the line of thrust.  How could it thrust in a
straight line?

And if the new sun REALLY looked that bright from Earth, I'm sure
the inhabitants of all coastal cities wouldn't be very pleased with
the long term effects of the 'gift'.

And the guys who were smart enough to make the monoliths and
everything were stupid enough to think that the addition of a sun to
our system would ensure that 'it would never again be dark on
Earth'.  Wrong!  During one part of the year, it would never be
dark.

But, I did kind of like the idea of turning a gas giant into a sun.
I guess this could be done if the monoliths were compressing the
gases into neutronium or something, effectively shrinking Jupiter
until it's gravitational field was strong enough to compress and
heat and ignite the atmosphere.  You'd have to be able to generate
awfully strong force fields to do the trick, though.

All in all, though, it was entertaining enough to be worth my $2.50.

Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j

------------------------------

From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 12:30:32 MST

>I'm sure they had a big budget for this movie, but it would
>probably have to be a lot bigger in order to make it look as though
>people were moving in zero g.  But if they had enough money, they
>could have moved the whold production into space to avoid this
>inexcusable sloppiness.  They could also try shooting very short
>sequences in some kind of free-fall elevator (like at some
>amusement parks).
>   These are the only ways offhand I can think of to make it look
>as though people are moving in zero g.  Both of them sound
>ridiculously expensive.
>   Maybe we'll just have to live with things like that for awhile
>longer until some special effects genius invents artificial
>gravity.

        Disagree. If you look at the free-fall scenes in 2001, you
will see that, while the simulation isn't *perfect*, it is done far
better than in 2010. In 2001, when the people are supposed to be
walking in free-fall on velcro, they move *slowly* (keeping momentum
down), and use handholds at every opportunity. In 2010, however,
walking in free fall with sticky soles is made to look exactly like
walking in a 1-G environment. Hyams could have and should have done
better.
        Incidentally, I liked 2010. It was not a classic, and had
more technical errors than I can completely excuse, but I thought it
a good, straight SF story that was treated with respect. I'd
expected less, and was surprised by the quality. 2010 is not in the
same league as 2001, but that's true of the books, as well. 2010 is
among the weakest of Clarke's recent novels, in my opinion.

                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry
SOURCE:          ST7891

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Date: 20 Dec 84 8:28:20 EST
Subject: Space Dust

The clinging dust on Discovery bothered me not at all.  Wipe your
finger across your CRT screen--gravity has nothing to do with the
reason that ukky grey stuff sticks to the glass.  Discovery was in
orbit around IO, which is rotten with volcanoes squirting sulphur
and other particulates around, some of which could well leave the
moon at escape velocity and assume a separate orbit.  IO exists in a
region of Jupiter space rich in charged particles and radiation--I
wouldn't be surprised if Discovery could pick up a whale of a static
charge in 9 years.  I was more disturbed that EVAs could be done at
all, based on what I've read and heard about that region of space.
(Some of you may remember--was it Dr. Forward-- explaining IO as
"the most dangerous place in the universe" at a panel at the last
Worldcon.)  Extremely high radiation level there.

Nice touch--the dust was even the right color!

--Jeff Duntemann

(PS: Excuse the capitalization on IO--it's hard enough suppressing
     the slash!)

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: New,  BIG 2010 plot error!
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 22:17:08 MST

<all these bytes are yours, except the message...>

I just saw 2010 tonite, having read the book this summer, and found
a MAJOR plot error near the end which nobody's mentioned yet.  When
the Russians and Floyd concur about getting out of there early, the
questions come up (and is put to Chandra) whether HAL will go along
with a flight plan that is suicidal for him/her/it.  Both the book
and film cover this.  However, in the movie they decide to play it
safe and LIE to HAL; only at the last moment does Chandra give it to
HAL straight.  The hooker: The lie consists mostly of denying the
danger of hanging around Jupiter.  HAL keeps asking (in the movie)
"Why leave and miss this great phenomenon (growing black spot)
unless there is danger here?"  Chandra, under orders, keeps lying to
HAL about this.
        But... it was HAL who received and passed on the message
from the erstwhile D. Bowman in the first place!  HAL was the first
to know of the imminent danger!  So how come these dumb humans could
lie to HAL?  This is ridiculous.  If I recall right, the book avoids
this inconsistency: the crew never consider lying to HAL, but merely
question his reaction to kamikaze missions (so much for Japanese
5th-generation computers).

Other than this, I thought the film was beautiful, exciting, well
made, and quite true to the spirit of the book with one major
exception, but that's another posting.  mike k

------------------------------

From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP
Subject: 2010--major plot omission (SPOILER)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 22:31:25 MST

<all these nits are yours>

The ending of the movie 2010 is fine, and the monolith scene is
lovely.  But a major point is left out from the book!  The aliens
(monolith makers, not Europa greenies) tell Bowman that someday,
after the Europans mature as an intelligent race, that the solar
system will be only big enuf for one race, and at that time the
Aliens will choose between them...  which one lives, and which one
is snuffed out (as was the life on Jupiter, depicted in the book).
        In other words, THE LAST JUDGMENT.  SHape up, Humans, or
SHIP OUT!  Certainly calling off the war with the Russians is a step
in the right direction (the alternative might spare the Aliens the
trouble of exterminating us), but the book's original message was
far more cosmic, far-reaching, and unsettling!  It left the story
open-ended, and you really wondered what would become of our race.
The movie says that hey, we've made up with the Reds, so Earth has
nothing to worry about any more.  Lets you walk out smiling, but
this watering down puts the movie's philosophical power below the
novel's, and hence below 2001, whose greatest virtue was its
open-endedness.

mike k

PS: As I stated in an earlier posting, I really liked the film and
the book.  I'd recommend this movie highly and am looking forward to
the next viewing.  But first, on to Arrakis...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Dec 84 11:53:55 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: 2010 glitch

Did anyone notice this one?  In the "Mission Report" at the
beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in
1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho
monolith".

Makes you wonder why, since those two places are a third of the
Moon's diameter apart...  If they had to do this silly thing, they
could have at least said it was dug up in Mare Crisium and called
the Tycho monolith, since that's where the tetrahedron in "The
Sentinel" was found.  Oh well.

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 85 17:38 EST
From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: 6030

Short comment.  Just finished my third (6030=3*?)  encounter (no pun
intended) with 2010.  The first two were mistakes.  First was
reading the book before seeing the movie; I think that spoiled it,
although I would have liked the movie to have had more about what
was happening on Europa.  Second mistake was seeing it in a theatre
with lousy projection equipment and lousy sound.  (Was stuck in a
hotel out in Reston and just down the arcade was a theatre ....)
The third time went to a 70mm / Dolby (6 speakers) theatre and
thought the movie came across quite well -- and that was just after
having looked at the tape of 2001.  Sure the politics was too strong
and SAL/HAL/Chandra a bit much, but it was enjoyable and the impact
of the various minor crises was definitely heightened by seeing it
in a place with the right equipment.

Ted

------------------------------

Date: 3 January 1985 23:44-EST
From: TYG@MIT-OZ @ MIT-MC

HAL and SAL to the contrary, computer technology in 2010 seems to
have gone backwards about 25 years. While Floyd had a Dynabook in
2001, in 2010, he now is using a Apple IIc on the beach.  Credit to
Apple is given at the end of the film.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Jan 85 23:50:54-EST
From: Thomas Y. Galloway <TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: 2010: Jihad in 2005?

Did anyone else notice that computer technology seemed to revert
about 25 years between 2001 and 2010?  While Floyd used a Dynabook
in 2001 in the shuttle, in 2010, he's using a vanilla Apple IIc on
the beach.

Maybe the Butlerian Jihad happened?

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: THE ODYSSEY FILE
Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:15 GMT

         THE ODYSSEY FILE by Arthur C. Clarke & Peter Hyams
                        Del Rey, 1984, $395.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Just as it is impossible to think of 2010 without being
reminded of 2001, so it is impossible to review THE ODYSSEY FILE
without referring to Jerome Agel's THE MAKING OF KUBRICK'S 2001.
Agel's book (published in 1970 by Signet and, for all I know, out of
print now, though renewed interest may bring it back) had 367 pages
(including a 96-page photo insert), lots of diagrams, reviews from
the media (both good and bad), and even an excerpt from the MAD
magazine parody of 2001.  It cost $1.50.  Clarke and Hyam's book is
148 pages (including a 16 page color photo insert) of large type, no
diagrams, and no reviews--but you do get an appendix of how to use
MITE on the Kaypro computer.  In fact, a lot of what you get is
little more than an ad for (or to be charitable, let's say a paean
to) the Kaypro.  Interspersed with Hyams's and Clarke's comments on
the film are such gems as "I'm way ahead of you on Son of Hal:
that's one reason I'm instantly WordStarring and printing out our
immortal prose."

     Now it's true that THE ODYSSEY FILE does not pretend to be what
THE MAKING OF 2001 was.  THE ODYSSEY FILE is described on its cover
as "the unique computer correspondence between the men who made it
happen" and that's what it is.  The problem is that reading someone
else's unedited mail files is b-o-r-i-n-g.  There is a lot of space
wasted on trivialities (like Clarke telling Hyams that a TV show
that he was in will be on Channel 4 in the UK).  There are a lot of
cryptic comments (referring to page and line numbers of the script).
There *are* some interesting items, but the reader/viewer who plunks
down $3.95 expecting an in-depth look at the making of 2010 is going
to be very disappointed.
                              Evelyn C. Leeper
                              ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Jan 85 0204-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 85 0204-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE - PART 3 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "DUNE".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: "dune"
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 22:34:38 MST

     I am finding out the hard way just how difficult it is to work
at 300 baud with a dumb terminal which only has 40 columns.  Please
forgive a certain lack of polish.

     "Dune" simultaneously plays to David Lynch's weaknesses and
strengths.  Both are plainly evident from his previous films, and
even from his background, but "Dune" displays them as never before.
Lynch was an artist before he took up film, and visuals have always
been his greatest strength, as anyone who saw "Eraserhead" can
attest.  Viewers of that film can also vouch for Lynch's ability to
establish moods.  In "The Elephant Man", Lynch was able to fit these
talents within a Hollywood framework without major compromise.  No
one, including me, noticed that he had one fatal weakness, a
weakness not likely to show up in films like "Eraserhead" or "The
Elephant Man".  David Lynch is not a storyteller.  His gifts are
almost purely visual, and even within the sphere of the visual they
do not partake of the narrative impulse.  Before "Dune", one might
have thought that Lynch simply wasn't very interested in story, but
that he might have been able to handle it when necessary.  "Dune"
illustrates that this is not the case.

     "Dune" was an impossible assignment to begin with.  Frank
Herbert's novel is over five hundred pages long, crammed with plot,
characters, and atmosphere.  There are some splendid visual
opportunities, but there is just too much stuff to fit into a
conventional Hollywood movie, and the expense required to bring off
the story precluded anything but a major hollywood film.  In fact,
the visual possibilities seemed to be what drew filmm akers to
"Dune".  Several of those who previously made serious efforts to get
a film made included Jadorewsky (almost certainly misspelled in the
absence of my film reference books; he directed "El Topo") and
Ridley Scott.  Not surprisingly, none of those involved were
especially strong as storytellers; they were all visualists.

     "Dune" defeats Lynch utterly at the story level.  Lynch's
screenplay visits all of the major incidents in the first half of
the book, and most of those in the second, but the overall feeling
is like nothing so much as one of those "ten day, twelve countries"
tours of Europe.  It all flies by too fast, losing all nuances in
the process.  Lynch includes the major plot elements, but leaves out
all that made "Dune" a fascinating book: the ecology of the planet,
the historical background of the empire, the culture of the Fremen
(natives of the planet Dune, for the uninitiated out there),
motivations of the characters, and the philosophical point of the
whole thing.  Some elements which Lynch chose to add to the story
run from irrelevant to harmful, and are at best a waste of time.
Welcome to the Reader's Digest condensed version of "Dune".
     I will leave out the usual plot summary, as the plot of "DUNE"
is extremely complicated.  anything I said would either spoil or
confuse the newcomers, and would bore those familiar with the novel.
suffice it to say that there are many twists and turns which David
Lynch tries to navigate with almost every hoary story device known
to film makers, including narration, voice overs of people thinking
(a particularly annoying device in this film which Lynch beats into
the ground ), obvious expository dialog, and that science fiction
chestnut, the book that tells you all about your brand new planet.
these devices are very poorly integrated.

     Along with a byzantine plot comes a large and varied cast of
characters.  Lynch has unwisely chosen to include almost all of them
in the film version, even if it means giving them only one or two
meaningless scenes and then dropping them.  He seems to believe,
rather naively, that if he puts well known actors in these roles, we
will understand that they are important characters, even though they
have nothing to do in the film.

     In fact, the cast as a whole has so little to do in this film
that it is almost meaningless to speak of the quality of their
performances.  No one has the time or scenes to distinguish
themselves, except for newcomer kyle mckechnie (definitely
misspelled, probably only an approximation of his last name).  He,
alas, is not up to the opportunity, and is little more than handsome
in the role of Paul.  Jurgen Prochnow has some impact as Duke Leto
and Sting and Kenneth McMillain are ok as the principle villains.
All of the other actors are so much set decoration.

     And with that, on to happier topics, such as the set decora-
tion.  Lynch has produced a visually stunning film.  The sets and
costumes are bizarre and brilliant.  The effects, by a team
including Kit West ("raiders of the lost ark"), Carlo Rambaldi (the
creator of e. t.) and Al- bert Whitlock, matte painter
extraordinaire, are first rate.  Many of them are even new.  What
more could one ask from special effects?  Well, perhaps a better
integration into the story.  The only effects that can be considered
a failure are the scenes of people riding sandworms.  The worms
themselves are fine, but it looks like the shots of people on them
didn't work out, so the effects team fell back on the old trick of
implying the effect rather than showing it.  David Lynch has
imagined a weird universe that is an awful lot of fun to look at.
This would have been sufficient if he were making the Dune calendar,
but it is insufficient for a film.

     So the bottom line is looks 10, story 3.  The film would have
been better off the other way around, but that would have been
nearly impossible, given the problems "Dune" presents to film
makers.  Unlike most bad science fiction movies, "Dune" is not a
failure due to slavish imitation, lack of imagination, or
indifference.  The makers of "dune" obviously cared, came up with
something original, and failed.  Too bad, but how many of you who
are familiar with the book are honestly surprised?  Regrettably, I
can't recommend "Dune" unless you are willing to settle for visual
impact alone, which few of us are.

                      Peter Reiher
                      reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                      {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: jab@uokvax.UUCP
Subject: Dune: read the book FIRST
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 23:15:00 MST

I am the kind of person who puts off a book that everyone recommends
because, well, everyone recommends it. A good example of this is
that I read "Lord of the Rings" last Spring, because before then I
was always surrounded by people who were such Tolkein fans that they
tried to speak Elvish. Same thing for "Time Enough for Love" and
"Foundation". (All fine books, ditch the fanatics somewhere and read
the books.)

I promised myself that I "would read 'Dune' before seeing the
movie." It wasn't because I had heard that the movie was
"better/worse than the book," but that it was "different."

      ***** DO IT: READ 'DUNE' BEFORE SEEING THE MOVIE. *****

Why? Because, like the movie or not, you'll understand almost none
of it without knowing the background of the book. Period. (The movie
lacks any sense of suspense anyhow, so it's not like the book will
spoil the movie.  My $4.50 was spent, in my opinion, to go see the
worms.)
        Jeff Bowles
        Lisle, IL

------------------------------

From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins)
Subject: and now, someone who hasn't read Dune...
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 23:52:38 MST

I thoroughly enjoyed the movie.  Of course, I was able to get a few
explanations from my friend who had read the book, but for the most
part, I just sat and enjoyed.  In fact, I think I might even read
the book now, having previously been put off by the fact that I knew
people who had tried to read it and failed.  I thought that the most
of the special effects were pretty good, also.  I don't agree that
the ending didn't convey awesome power.  I thought that Paul causing
Feyd to explode was a particularly nice touch.  As far as
entertainment value, I'd put it slightly above 2010, probably a
little above Starman (Starman was touching, but I was probably in
the mood for something flashy when I saw it).  I'll probably go see
it again after I've read the book.

Randwulf  (Randy Haskins);  Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh

------------------------------

From: adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph)
Subject: The Dune controversey'
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 18:21:27 MST

An interesting display of the split opinion on this movie: the day
Dune opened, USA Today published a review by its chief movie critic
which gave the film 1.5/4 stars.  Alongside it, they published a
review by Harlan Ellison, who loved the movie.  I think I'll go see
for myself before I subscribe to the bandwagonism of either camp
(although, you guys were right about Supergirl...)

                                        -- Mark A.
                                        ...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!adolph

"Computers are like preppies: they just boil around in their own way
     and you have to do things their way or they blow you off."

     "Everything that was different was a different thing..."

------------------------------

From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: DUNE Ad note
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 09:10:49 MST

Has anyone else noticed that the ads for DUNE on tv have the
standard generic voice-over done with some type of distortion
effect?  Well, when I saw the movie yesterday, Lynch uses the SAME
distortion effect to indicate the use of the Bene Gessirt (sp?)
Voice!

Gee, no *wonder* I felt compelled to go see the movie...

                   "These aren't the droids you're looking for..."

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
    {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
     !fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP
Subject: "Dune" trivia
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 23:27:12 MST

Did anyone else notice David Lynch's cameo in "Dune"?  He played the
commander of the spice harvester that got eaten by a sandworm.  Even
under a bunch of sweat and grime, he still looked like a worthy
successor to Mickey Rooney in the role of Andy Hardy.  How can
someone so wholesome and, let's face it, dopey-looking have such
weird ideas floating around in his head?

                      Peter Reiher
                      reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                      {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 1985 10:12:43 PST
Subject: DUNE & Harlan Ellison
From: Martin S. Feather <FEATHER@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

A newspaper ad for the DUNE movie contained the following quote:

"'DUNE' is the 'Gone With the Wind' and 'Birth of a Nation' of
science-fiction films...opening into visual and intellectual realms
the cinema has never before revealed."  - Harlan Ellison, USA Today

Hmmm.
M. Feather

------------------------------

Date: Fri 4 Jan 85 17:27:44-PST
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: Dune the movie VS. DOON

I think DOON followed the book DUNE better than the movie did.  The
only way to have a comprehensable 3 or 4 hour Dune movie would be to
reduce the number of characters...  but then again, we wouldn't
realy have Dune anymore.

------------------------------

From: cadre!geb@topaz
Subject: Re: Dune
Date: 31 Dec 84 15:11:59 GMT

Indeed, the movie of Dune was a joke.  Dino de Laurentis strikes out
again.  I wasn't as disappointed, since I hadn't expected much,
given the pre-release hype and all the books, etc. release before
the film, to try to make some money before everyone found out how
badly it stank.  Frank Herbert wasn't turning in his grave, since
he's still alive and most of the books he turns out now are of the
same ilk as the movie.  I guess he's the type of author who only
really has one good book in him.  It is extremely difficult to make
a great movie out of a great book.  Look at Ralph Bakshi's abortion
with Lord of the Rings.  But really, how could you make a movie out
of LotR or Dune unless the movie ran 20 hours in the case of Dune
and maybe 100 hours in the case of LotR.  Who would finance it?
What theaters would book it?  The charm is tied up with all the rich
detail, that can't be shown in a movie.  The detail is not just in
the sets.  Something like Star Wars succeeds because it was
conceived as a movie (or series) and tailored accordingly, but lacks
the depth of meaning of LotR, or even Dune (which though good,
shouldn't really be considered in the same galaxy with Tolkein, or
even Gene Wolfe).

------------------------------

From: dartvax!holly@topaz (Holly Cabell)
Subject: Re: Dune
Date: 3 Jan 85 13:20:10 GMT

Speaking of Dune....
  Of all the people I have talked to, it seems that only those who
saw the movie before reading the book (myself included) thought it
was a good movie.  However, immediately after seeing the movie, I
read the book, and realized how bad the movie was compared to the
book.  Rhetorical question--How did Herbert allow them to make such
a mess out of what is really an excellent book?

Ken Varnum

------------------------------

From: mako!jans@topaz (Jan Steinman)
Subject: Re: Dune
Date: 3 Jan 85 17:17:40 GMT

geb@cadre.UUCP writes:
>Frank Herbert wasn't turning in his grave, since... most of the
>books he turns out now are of the same ilk as the movie.  I guess
>he's the type of author who only really has one good book in him.

The first sentence, I might not argue, but before making a statement
like the second, try reviewing some of his earlier works, such as
"The Green Brain", etc.

Jan Steinman            Box 1000, MS 61-161     (w)503/685-2843
tektronix!tekecs!jans   Wilsonville, OR 97070   (h)503/657-7703

------------------------------

From: utai!indra@topaz (Indra Laksono)
Subject: Re: Dune
Date: 30 Dec 84 04:22:42 GMT

        Speaking of DUNE.  I wonder how many people liked the movie?
In my humble, naive opinion, to say that it didn't do the book
justice may be the understatement of the Millenium.  Let's just say
that if Herbert was dead, we just might hear subterranean vibrations
(like turning).

        In fact, when the movie started, everybody clapped REAL
LOUD.  But the giggling started 1 minute into the movie when
Princess Irulan said all those profound things.  The thing that
really cracked everybody up was Paul repeating over and over :
"Dune, Desert planet...  Spice, sandworm".

        It was only at the end, when Paul Muad'ib captured the
emperor, etc.  that we really realize how much the audience enjoyed
the movie (REALLY).  Paul said that his battle was fought in the
name of Justice.  Then, Feyd Rautha (Sting) said,"Justice" (say it
with sarcasm).  Almost everyone clapped.  I almost did too.  It was
the most disappointing night in my life.  (Maybe my hopes were too
high.)

[I understand professor chandra, thank you for telling me... will I
dream?]
{allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo}!utcsrgv!utai!indra

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jan 85 1244-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jan 85 1244-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Eddings & Sucharitkul,
                   Films - 2010 (2 msgs),
                   Television - Starlost (4 msgs) & V

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 85 07:33 PST
From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #8

I agree with Edward Zawacki's endorsement of The Belgariad. The
story is good, the characters are good, the milleux is good etc. The
humor is VERY good! I have but two requests of Eddings for the
future:

1) I wish he would cut down on the blushing! It seemed to me that
every time you turn around, someone is blushing.

2) I would like to know what the Philosophical Ideas are that this
tetrology (?) is trying to develop. Anybody have any idea?

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 85 11:39:33 PST (Monday)
From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Faces of Science Fiction; Somtow Sucharitkul

Wondering about an author like Sucharitkul who you haven't been able
to see at any conventions?  (tho' he has been at a few) Take a look
Blue Jay Books new "The Faces of Science Fiction".  This features
photos of a large number of science fiction and fantasy authors,
along with a few brief comments about or by each.  Most of the
photos are in their home or other working area.  Many great authors
who started in the 50's and 60's are there, as well as a large
number of newer authors.  I was continually startled to see many of
my favorites looking nothing like I expected.

Somtow Sucharitkul is shown, and a comment mentions that he spends
equal time on music and on science fiction.  I believe I've heard
one work of his long ago, which I would call "contemporay
classical", with a stong meditative Zen influence.  If you know more
about his music, please let us know.

Lawrence

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following 2 messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Subject: 2010
From: CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (S. C. Colbath)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 1985 08:57 EST

To begin with, I must say that I am a 2010 fan, as well as a 2001
fan.  I believe that 2010 was an excellent movie, well deserving of
more recognition, and is easily the best Christmas-release movie (in
my opinion).  I believe it was as true to the book as can be
expected these days, and was produced well, considering the writer
was in Sri Lanka and only available for communication via computer.
Therefore, ***FLAME ON!***

>The marshmallow analogy should perhaps have included an
>explanation.  The thing that ruined it for me was the trail of
>smoke left by the Leonov's passage through Jupiter atmosphere.
>Smoke is particulate matter which results from a chemical
>combustion process; ie., something's burning up. The only thing
>that could have been burning in this case was the balloon, but it
>seemed to (and had to) survive intact.  Certainly the heating of
>the hydrogen/helium atmosphere would not have produced smoke. The
>space shuttle doesn't produce a smoke trail when it reenters, even
>in an oxygen atmosphere.  Therefore, the reason the smoke trail is
>there is that someone in the special effects dept. thought it would
>look more dramatic that way, and to hell with reality.

People who want truth in science should be able to realize it when
they see it.  "Smoke" is an Earthly concept, but if we use the
definition here, there should be no problem.  The Leonov is passing
through an atmosphere of methane, hydrogen, and helium, and is
producing a LOT of friction.  This would cause heat to be created,
chemical bonds to be created and broken, ionization of compounds, a
lot of light, and probably "smoke".  No, the Space Shuttle doesn't
leave a "smoke" trail on re-entry, but our atmosphere is composed of
nitrogen and oxygen, and they aren't too likely to react with each
other.  It does leave one hell of a vapor trail on launch, tho.

Re: The pen and pencil sequence.  This is one of the few major
physics bugs I could notice in the movie.  The only way I could see
this as happening is if the pen and pencil were at the axis of
rotation of the Leonov bridge.  Here there would be no artificial
"gravity", but if this is true there wouldn't be very much two feet
away where Floyd & the Russian captain are standing.

>Well, here's my MAJOR GRIPE.  I could go on forever about how Hyams
>trys to turn this into a audience-manipulation-emotion movie, like
>INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF WHOOPEE, with the energy jumping
>out of the hole in Europa (Jaws music should have been inserted),
>and the funny things everyone says, as if Hyams is saying, "This is
>probably too much for you to comprehend...  I'll lower it all to
>your level."  Huh.  It's not that it isn't entertaining; it's just
>that I AM SICK AND TIRED OF "ENTERTAINING" SCIENCE FICTION!  How
>about something with some vision and wonder?

You may be, but I certainly am not.  I do not spend 4 big ones to go
to a movie to be preached to; I go to a movie to have a good time
and be entertained.  If the movie is able to do this at the same
time as having "vision and wonder" (i.e. 2001), then more power to
it.  Note that I do not advocate sacrificing good taste,
intelligence, or any other human qualities for "entertainment", but
I believe that 2010 does more than admirably.  It creates a sense of
mystery and intrigue about the universe, helps to avert a sense of
hopelessness about life on Earth, and despite the slightly sappy
ending, left me with a warm feeling in my heart at the end.  The
only reason the ending seemed lacking to me is that it is rather
hard to translate a book that has a lot of narration from the
first-person and omniscient point of view into a movie that people
will enjoy.

Re: The space suits, pods, and helmets.  I agree that there may be
some problem here.  However, it all depends on what you are basing
your judgement on, and what point of view you have.  The BOOK 2001
is *NOT* the same as the MOVIE 2001.  This is important.  I re-read
the book after seeing 2010, and found some fascinating differences.
If I read correctly, the planet the Discovery is going to is Saturn,
not Jupiter, and the moon is Japetus, not Europa.  When Dave Bowman
returned to the Discovery, he piloted the pod into the docking bay
manually, not by risking explosive decompression via the airlock.
This is all very interesting, since the book 2001 supposedly came
out at the same time or just after the movie.

Re: Gravity.  Sigh.  This is a tough one.  I believe Hyams did his
best to be true to physics and make everything plausible.  The
Discovery was rotating in orbit, due to the law of conservation of
angular momentum (although it did stop a little abruptly).  The
astronauts did get heavier as they got nearer the rotating end.
However, as to people floating in the non-gravitized part of the
ship: I believe there comes a point where movie-goers, no matter how
much they may not want to, must take something for granted.  There
may be many good special-effects studios around today, but I have
not seen one yet which can "fly" a person with reliability.  The
whole series of "Superman" movies left a lot to be desired, and if
they were to try to fly everyone in every compartment of the ships,
the whole film would have been more awkward to make and would
probably have looked highly silly.  In my opinion, this did not
detract from the film, and if I remember correctly, the astronauts
did not float in the pod bay in 2001 either.

***FLAME OFF***

All in all, I must say with conviction that 2010 is the best film
that I have seen this year.  Overall, the effects were good, the
acting was excellent, and it left me feeling like I got my 4$ worth,
easily.

One other thing.  Does anyone know what that small thing was that
flew out of the airlock when it was opened?  I have been wracking my
brain trying to figure out if it had any significance in 2001.

Sean C. Colbath
CPE07401@MAINE.BITNET
"Dave, why don't you take a stress pill and lie down.."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jan 85 11:01 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: 2010 glitch

>Did anyone notice this one?  In the "Mission Report" at the
>beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in
>1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho
>monolith".

I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at Clavius
and called something like the Clavius Anomaly.  Please correct me if
I'm wrong.  (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering to).

      Brett Slocum
          Slocum @ HI-MULTICS     (arpa-net)
          ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum (uucp)

------------------------------

Date: 02 Jan 85 22:17:01 PST (Wed)
Subject: Re: "The Starlost" TV series
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>>otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost"...
>
> I remember this as an all-around stinker, although it has been a
> while.  Does anyone else remember this at all?  And didn't Ben
> Bova or someone write a book that was a takeoff on the production
> of this?
>
>   Mark

  The StarLost was a CTV series (Canadian TeleVision, for those who
know less about Canada than they should), which tried to compete
with American releases of the time, to try to keep Canadian
audiences watching Canadian television, and stem the cultural
invasion.  Unfortunately, like Battlestar Galactica, it had a
possibly powerful premise never fully realised.  Compared with Lost
in Space, it was pretty good.  Compared with almost anything else,
it wasn't (although Star Trek could have learned something from the
effects for its interiors).

  The idea was basically that a ship was launched with the remnants
of humanity, to try to preserve the species.  However, the
descendants of the first generation (a few generations later, as I
recall) had lost the knowledge of their purpose and destination (if
any), and were highly ignorant even of the ship itself, knowing
little more than needed for day to day survival.  Further, there
were pockets or groups like tribes isolated in various places (it
was a *big* ship), with the usual fear of meetings.  Finally, not
all the occupants were human.  Though I can't remember how they got
there, there were various animal forms, Terran and non-Terran.

  A first-rate sf-writer could do a lot with this, but as I remember
(it has been quite a few years now, and American networks almost
*never* import Canadian shows) they never did.  I had actually
forgotten all about it until I saw this message.

  Anyway,  Dr. Who is much more fun !!
                                        Alastair

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 3 January 1985, 07:29-PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman at SWW-WHITE>
Subject: The Starlost

>>otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost"...
>
> I remember this as an all-around stinker, although it has been a
> while.  Does anyone else remember this at all?  And didn't Ben
> Bova or someone write a book that was a takeoff on the production
> of this?

Yeah, it came from a pilot that Harlan Ellison developed.  As
Ellison told the story, NBC took the original script and found a
Canadian studio to do the program, primarily because they could do
the series VERY cheaply.  It came out around 1973 and was the most
incredible piece of crap television had yet produced.  Ellison, in a
last desperate attempt to save some aspect of the series, got Ben
Bova to come on board as science advisor, but by then it was too
late.  Ellison thought so little of the program that he insisted
that they use his pseudonym on the credits.  (Whenever someone
botches one of his attempts at television writing, Cordwainer Bird
gets the screen credit.)

Ellison told the story in an introduction to Phoenix Without Ashes,
a novelization of the pilot.  I don't recall the author's name, but
it wasn't Ellison.  Ben Bova fictionalized the whole sordid story in
a book called The Starcrossed, which was reprinted a few months ago.

------------------------------

Date: 3 January 1985, 19:35:36 CST
From: U44767%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Edward R. Zawacki)
Subject: Re: "Starlost TV series"

I remember (slightly) the Starlost TV series...as I recall it was
about a small group of people aboard a starship that was off course.
The ship had been in flight so long that nobody even realized they
were on a ship except for these few people. The ship had a whole
mess of bubble-like 'worlds' and the people in each 'world' did not
know of the existence of the others.

In any case I believe that the show was about this group of people
and they were trying to find the control room so that they could fix
the course of the ship. All in all, the series wasn't that bad but
as with all TV science fiction it didn't last.

------------------------------

Date: 03 Jan 85 13:51:11 PST (Thu)
To: Purtill@mit-multics
Subject: Re: "The Starlost" TV series
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

Starlost was just a little better than Lost in Space (which I was
young enough to enjoy at the time, and don't mind admitting it).
The plots were only slightly more realistic, and the main characters
were much more real, but abnormally naive.  Lost in space at least
had it's variety of odd aliens coming from a large universe;
Starlost had an equally bizarre variety co-existing on the same
ship, and most of them seemed to think they were in charge!

Harlan Ellison's original teleplay for the series won a Writers
Guild award for the Most Outstanding Teleplay of the year.  He was
pissed off by what the TV yokels did with it.  In a twenty page
introduction to the book, titled "Somehow I don't think we're in
Kansas, Toto", he describes in graphic terms how he spent six months
creating the teleplay and how the "inept, the untalented, the venal,
and the corrupt" turned it into "a veritable Mt. Everest of cow
flop".  He lays partial blame on the fact that internal politics
finally ended up with the scripts being written in Canada, where the
they have virtually no experience with writing episodic drama or SF
(except two writers, but they were not involved with this project).

The book "Phoenix Without Ashes" by Edward Bryant and Ellison claims
to be based on the teleplay, but I couldn't distinguish it (in terms
of quality) from the series.  The only difference was that the book
ended when the main characters first discover they are on a ship, so
we are spared all of the really dumb characters they meet in their
journeys.

There was some discussian of the Starlost in this journal several
years ago; I don't recall exactly when.

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Barry Gold)
Subject: Re: V
Date: 5 Jan 85 20:54:18 GMT

The first January episode of "V" seemed somewhat better.  Only
mediocre rather than loathsome.  If *I* were the new lizard
commander, I'd start out by purging half my troops, brainwashing
them, and sending them off to help the rebels.  That should assure
victory in a couple of weeks.

Speaking of the new lizard commander, do you think Regehr
(previously seen in black leather brigantine with steel studs as
Dirk Blackpool in "Wizards & Warriors" and black leather gladiator
armor with steel stud as Lydon in "The Last Days of Pompeii" has a
clause in his contract specifying that he be type-clothed rather
than type-cast?  He looked quite nice in his offbeat garb of black
pants, black shirt open to the waste, and a silver belt.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  8 Jan 85 1328-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jan 85 1328-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:

         Books - Wylie & Story Request & Reviews (2 msgs),
         Films - Dune (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: THE END OF THE DREAM
Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:06 GMT

     Comments While Reading Philip Wylie's THE END OF THE DREAM
                           DAW, 1972, $?.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     If I am reading a really good science fiction story, I am
willing to suspend my disbelief and go where the author wants to
take me.  Almost all science fiction requires some suspension of
disbelief and it comes as a real surprise when you find a story that
doesn't.  One book that really doesn't is Philip Wylie's THE END OF
THE DREAM.  What prompted me to read the book was a feeling of deja
vu following hearing about a firestorm in Mexico City and a massive
chemical disaster in India soon after.  I'd read about the first
quarter of THE END OF THE DREAM in 1972 and all of a sudden the news
sounded like chapters out of the book.

     So I am re-reading THE END OF THE DREAM, a novel about the end
of the world through environmental disasters.  My first reaction is
that people who claim that Orwell was right "on target" with 1984
should read this novel to find out what "on target" really means.
It is eerie how close some sections of this book reflect events that
have occurred since it was written.  Wylie describes a toxic
chemical firestorm in New York City.  Not quite accurate enough to
make it history, but pretty close to a number of events that have
happened.  There have been toxic fires near New York and, of course,
the Mexico City firestorm.  Wylie describes how addicted we are to
material goods, so while environmentalism has waves of popularity,
they die down and we go back to poisoning the environment.  That's a
direct hit.  He has descriptions of industry paying for

     "ubiquitous displays of the American future as purged of
     pollution...  [The displays] did not say or much reveal how the
     'glory of natural America' would be recovered, or who would do
     it, where the money would come from or what sacrifices and
     hardships would accrue to any such attempt.  It merely
     displayed the faits accomplis, everywhere, clear air, clean
     rivers, and deserts made green, with the endlessly hammered
     slogan, 'America *can*!  America *will*!'"

I suppose there was a little of that even before this novel was
written, but I remember seeing just what Wylie was describing on
Detroit TV five or six years after he described it.

     Wylie writes with an incredible authenticity and a feel for
public psychology.  The above was from the last chapter I read.
Wylie starts the current chapter I am reading talking about the
destruction of a certain part of the potato crop and how the public
only understands it in terms of a shortage of potato chips.  Even as
I am writing this, it is occurring to me that the way I and most
other people I know look at the citrus cancre is "what is it going
to do to the price of orange juice?"

     I seem to remember some book being sold with the tag line "Read
it while it is still science fiction!"  For THE END OF THE DREAM, I
can't help but feel I'm too late.

     Postscript: The above was written when I was about a third the
way through the book.  I stand by my assessment, though as the story
extends further into the future, some of what it describes becomes a
little more far-fetched. No more far-fetched than any number of good
SF novels, but still a little less likely than the first part.  I
particularly liked the way Wylie closed the novel.  It was one of
the best pieces of science ficiton I have read in quite a while.  It
is still in print from DAW, I think.  Go for it.

                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                        Mark R. Leeper
                       ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: Sun 6 Jan 85 16:33:32-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Story Request

    This is the slimmest of clues, but years ago I read a book
(story?) in which the human protagonist visited an alien world with
a unique approach toward legislation.  As I recall, the way the
system worked was that anyone could make a law about anything, and
any law could be repealed by a vote of x (some small number -- 5?)
other inhabitants.  The catch was that if an inhabitant created more
than y (again a small number) of laws that were repealed, the
lawmaker was severely dealt with (executed?)  Okay, Dr.  Memory,
what work by what author did this scenario appear in?

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic

------------------------------

From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: The Year's Best Science Fiction (1983), edited by Gardner
Subject: Dozois
Date: 6 Jan 85 03:52:28 GMT

 _T_h_e _Y_e_a_r'_s _B_e_s_t _S_c_i_e_n_c_e _F_i_c_t_i_o_n:
_F_i_r_s_t _A_n_n_u_a_l _C_o_l_l_e_c_t_i_o_n, edited by Gardner
Dozois, 1984.
     This quarter million word collection is Dozois's first for
Bluejay Books, a successor to the _B_e_s_t _S_c_i_e_n_c_e
_F_i_c_t_i_o_n _S_t_o_r_i_e_s _o_f _t_h_e _Y_e_a_r series he did for
five years for some other publisher.  This collection of 1983
stories is nicely catholic in its tastes, with if anything a little
too much emphasis on humor and the offbeat.
     Contents: "Summation: 1983" by the editor, "Cicada Queen" by
Bruce Sterling (a Shaper/Mechanist story I enjoyed more the second
time around), "Beyond the Dead Reef" by James Tiptree, Jr.  (an
typically weak Quintana Roo story), "Slow Birds" by Ian Watson (the
deserved award winner), "Vulcan's Forge" by Poul Anderson
(unsurprising Anderson hard science, mushy character story),
"Man-Mountain Gentian" by Howard Waldrop (Zen-Sumo wrestling? better
believe it), "Hardfought" by Greg Bear (another award winner),
"Manifest Destiny" by Joe Haldeman (a borderline fantasy western),
"Full Chicken Richness" by Avram Davidson (weird, funny),
"Multiples" by Robert Silverberg (beyond singles bars, you have . .
.), "Cryptic" by Jack McDevitt (a quiet, scary SETI tale), "The
Sidon in the Mirror" by Connie Willis (moody), "Golden Gate" by R.
A. Lafferty (he's done better), "Blind Shemmy" by Jack Dann (not
always convincing, but an attention grabber), "In the Islands" by
Pat Murphy (a story of generation and other gaps), "Nunc Dimittis"
by Tanith Lee (another good vampire story), "Blood Music" by Greg
Bear (Bear's _o_t_h_e_r award winning story from 1983), "Her Furry
Face" by Leigh Kennedy (another story about wide gaps), "Knight of
Shallows" by Rand B. Lee (of parallel universes, and skew ones,
too), "The Cat" by Gene Wolfe (from the New Sun universe, I think),
"The Monkey Treatment" by George R. R.  Martin (funny diet horror
story), "Nearly Departed" by Pat Cadigan (postmortem telepathy),
"Hearts Do Not in Eyes Shine" by John Kessel (of trust and
psychotherepy, and love and memory), "Carrion Comfort" by Dan
Simmons (another interesting twist on vampirism), "Gemstone" by
Verner Vinge (about some Thing or other), "Black Air" by Kim Stanley
Robinson (it'd be tough on the losing side of the Spanish Armada's
defeat).

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!hogpd!pegasus!lzmi!psc         The above opinions are my own,
...!cbosg!lzmi!psc                 and do not necessarily represent
...!ucbvax!ihnp4!lznv!psc          those of anyone else.

------------------------------

From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Universe 14:  anthology of origninal SF, edited by Terry Carr
Date: 6 Jan 85 03:50:40 GMT

 _U_n_i_v_e_r_s_e _1_3: anthology of original science fiction,
edited by Terry Carr, 1983.
     So it becomes almost farcical to say that Terry Carr's
_U_n_i_v_e_r_s_e _1_3 (Doubleday) was the best annual original SF
anthology of the year [1983], since it was very nearly the _o_n_l_y
annual original SF anthology of the year.  Nevertheless, it would
have been a good anthology in any year, featuring excellent novellas
by Bruce Sterling and Michael Bishop, and interesting stuff by Ian
Watson, Kim Stanley Robinson, and Leanne Frahm.
     This anthology isn't quite as good as its predecessor; which is
to say, it's pretty damn good.  I can't say it doesn't have a single
bad story, but it doesn't have any terrible stuff, and the best is
very good indeed.  If you read SF for ideas, or for
characterization, this probably contains what, for you, may be the
best stories of the year.  Along with the new Ace Specials line, I
think Terry Carr has sewed up the 1985 Hugo for best editor of 1984.
Contents:

"The Lucky Strikes": novella, Kim Stanley Robinson
     This is an alternate history story.  This is a story about an
American bombadier in WWII, older and a little wiser than his
companions, unhappy with strategic bombing.  This is a story about
the glory of war, as seen by its young participants, and about how
that glory can ferment more wars when the young soldiers become
statesmen, policy makers, and voters.  One of the above, some of the
above, all of the above.
     This is a character story, not a plot-and-action story.  This
is an idea story.  This is a _g_o_o_d story.  All of the above.

"Gate of Horn, Gate of Ivory", short story by Robert Silverberg
     What if the future holds Hell in store for us, if we shall
never know a world better than our own, here and now?  Or what if
the future holds paradise, so grand that the present is intolerable
in comparison?
     Neither is likely.  Some things get better, some worse.  But
simplicity and purity are tools of good writers.  Silverberg, more
than a good writer, builds a pretty little piece with those tools,
and a few more.

"Passing as a Flower in the City of the Dead", novelette (?) by
Sharon N.  Farber
     Some babies are born without immune systems.  Some of them are
put into space suits, and in general, germ-free environments.  They
can never leave.
     Some adults lose their immune systems, by disease, or more
likely, by trying to cure diseases like leukemia.  It isn't
considered practical to put them in space suits.
     Would a space habitat be more practical?  Could an artist find
inspiration in a hospital for the terminally cured?  And wasn't
there something about one-eyed men in the country of the blind....

"O", short story by Damon Knight
     "One day, everybody in the world whose name began with the
letter _o disappeared." Cute, short, but tries to make a point too
heavy for this story to support.

"Art in the War Zone", story by Pat Murphy
     If you declare war on artists, will they fight, or paint?  The
phrase, "the art of war", may never be the same again.

"Interlocking Pieces", short story by Molly Gloss
     A story about medicine, and moral ambiguity, and forgiveness.
Or the lack of any of those.  Short, somewhat disturbing, and based
upon a new (and scary) idea.

"The Menagerie of Babel", novelette by Carter Scholz
     *sigh* With a strong enough delusion, you don't need reality.
Life is meaningless, its variety a violation of order.  Darwin was
right, Lamark was right.
     There are people who like this type of story.  With a few
exceptions, I don't like _t_h_e_m, either.

"Deadtime", short story by Joel Richards
     Time travel would be as useful to policemen as it would be
disturbing to philosophers.  This story has a new twist: time travel
primarily as a tool of law and order.  Of course, not everyone
_l_i_k_e_s order.
     This one's a bit hard to follow, but worth it.  The characters
are, by and large, vivid.  The only exception is the killer.  He's
motivated by some obscure Buddhist logic... and the writer's desire
to tell a twisted, but good, story.

"Me/Days": short story by Gregory Benford
     What can I say about this story?  I can give away the whole
point, and say it didn't make it very well.  I can compare it to
Greg Bear's "Blood Music", another story I didn't much care for.  I
can say that I wrote a pretty bad story years ago, consisting
entirely of BMDP dumps and unattributed dialog, that I think was a
better attempt at telling a story from an inanimate point of view.
     I can tell you I didn't like "Me/Days" much, but I guess you've
figured that out by now.

"Black Coral", novelette by Lucius Shepard
     Shepard's novel, _G_r_e_e_n _E_y_e_s, has been criticized for
being confusing.  If you didn't like that, you won't like this.  I
haven't made up my mind yet, but it's by no means my favorite story
of the anthology.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!hogpd!pegasus!lzmi!psc         The above opinions are my own,
...!cbosg!lzmi!psc                 and do not necessarily represent
...!ucbvax!ihnp4!lznv!psc          those of anyone else.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "DUNE".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jan 85 10:20:23 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Dune -- the 4-hour film?

Reference the note from D. Mitchell about a 4-hour Dune:

Every now and then, film critics make reference to the vast amounts
of film that have been shot for this or that movie, and which were
left on the "cutting-room floor" to make a two-hour movie out of the
total amount shot. Examples of this seem to include "The Cotton
Club", "Once Upon A Time in America", "The Godfather", etc. Some of
these get re-cut and re-issued in the longer versions, either for TV
or for theatres.

Did "Dune" fall into this category? I don't recall seeing any critic
or review mention that "n" thousand feet of film was discarded and
we have seen only some percentage of the "real" movie, but, if that
was the case, it might explain some of the problems and criticisms
we have been discussing here (and on USENET). A four-hour (or some
other long length) version might contain the missing
characterization and explanation/explication. It wouldn't correct
fundamental flaws (such as errors in characterization like Jessica's
lack of strength or power), nor factual errors (origin of the term
"M'uad D'ib", etc.), but it would have more of a chance to do
better.

Of course, those who disliked the movie intensely anyway will just
have more of it to hate, but those who were ambivalent might find
themselves swayed to favor it by a more-complete version.

Maybe such a re-cutting could be achived for the videocassette
release, if it is unmarketable to release to theatres in a long
version.

Will Martin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin

------------------------------

From: faron!wdr@topaz (William D. Ricker)
Subject: 5 hour Dune on TV ? Another Book?
Date: 7 Jan 85 23:00:54 GMT

In answer to the question of how much usable film was shot, a friend
heard on CNN2 that 5 hours of usable, coherent plot will be recycled
in a year or two into a 4 or 5 hour mini-series for T.V..  This
would include many of the scenes/plot-details we all miss.

Regarding the continuation of Dune Books and cannonic status of the
movie, _Writer's_Digest_ (current issue) has an on-the-set interview
with Frank Herbert.  He promises one final volume, to be out in '85
I think, in which he will rap up the series (or so he expects).  (He
admits to writing one of the Leto sequels because the character
wouldn't leave him alone otherwise.)  He does endorse not only the
screen-play as written by Lynch but also every scene, claiming to
have worked the clap-board on each scene himself.  (He has been a
professional photographer and video cameraman, so he may well have
earned his "Technical Consultant" retainer.)

William Ricker
wdr@MITRE-Bedford.ARPA                                  (MIL)
wdr@faron.UUCP                                          (UUCP)
decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr                           (UUCP)
allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr  (UUCP)

Opinions are my own and not necessarily anyone elses.  Likewise the
"facts".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jan 85 1029-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jan 85 1029-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & Anthony & Eddings & Lupoff &
                    Sucharitkul (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                    Story Request Answered (2 msgs) & 
                    What Is a Nimrod (2 msgs) & Awards,
            Films - Do You Remember (2 msgs) & Movie/Book Combinations,
            Television - Starlost

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book?
Date: 7 Jan 85 17:35:52 GMT

It is true, there is a fourth book in the Hitchiker`s trilogy (and
that's exactly what it says, don't blame me).

In it, Lester Dent (no that's Arthur, isn't it; a truly savage
error) anyway, Arthur is back on the reconstructed earth, trying to
a) get laid b) figure out where the dolphins went, and c) try to
explain why he looks eight years older than he did ``yesterday''.

I liked it a lot.

Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated.

                                Charlie Martin
                                (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony-Xanth (spoiler!)
Date: 8 Jan 85 08:37:51 GMT

"Crewel Lye" (Piers Anthony) isn't really his best effort.  More
puns than ever (not always very good ones though), and he is very
slowly becoming less of a male chauvinist, but the story is
disjointed at the beginning and end, the characterization is uneven
in Jordan's narrative, and rather repetitious with Jordan being too
similar to Bink.  The use of different perspectives across the
series just barely manages to keep Anthony from rewriting the same
story over and over again.

I would have preferred it if they'd release "Bearing an Hourglass"
in paper cover rather than yet another Xanth book.

Hutch

------------------------------

From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight)
Subject: Thanks for the Belgariad recommendation.
Date: 8 Jan 85 03:11:35 GMT

        I'd like to thank the person who recommended the Belgariad
series by David Eddings last month.  I decided to pick up the first
book and was throughly entranced throughout all 5 volumes.
Definitely the best read I've had in quite some time.  I just loved
the characters.  They seemed so real and likeable.  I strongly
second the recommendation.
                                D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: CIRCUMPOLAR
Date: 8 Jan 85 14:34:42 GMT

                  Circumpolar by Richard A. Lupoff
                      Timescape, 1984, $15.95.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Yes, it's yet another alternate history novel!  But whereas
most AH novels are content with a single historical change, this one
insists on straining credulity with two (although, strictly
speaking, only one is of an historical nature).

     Premise #1 is that the earth is not a sphere, but a disk (a
thick disk, but a disk nonetheless) with the "North Pole" in the
center.  At the "North Pole" is the Symmes Hole, through which pour
torrents of water from the earth's oceans.  (Why all the oceans
haven't drained to the other side by now is unclear.  How gravity
works is even less clear.  We won't even deal with centrifugal
force.)  The "South Pole" is (apparently) the rim of the disk and
consists of an enormous ice wall.

     Premise #2 (the historical one) is that this earth's history is
identical with ours up until the One Year War, which took place in
1912.  In 1912, Theodore Roosevelt was elected and the Germans
decided to start the war then instead of waiting two years, and as a
result, were quickly defeated.

     Now how this earth's history could be the same (including
conquistadors et al) given how different the geography is) is
totally unclear to me.  Lupoff glosses over the obvious differences
by concentrating his discussion of politics on Europe and the United
States, but what about places like South America and Africa, which
lie mostly below the equator on our earth and hence would be
enormous on the disk described above?

     The plot has Baron Von Richtofen, his younger brother, and the
Princess Irina Lvova (of still-Tsarist Russia) in a "circumpolar"
airplane race with Charles Lindbergh, Amelia Earhart, and Howard
Hughes.  ("Circumpolar" in this case means over the rim and back
through the Hole, or vice versa.)  Everyone is a stereotype.  The
Baron and his brother are evil Teutonic types, the Princess is an
overly religiously superstitious Russian, the American are noble and
inventive.  The Germans, in their flight, first meet up with a
Teutonic race on the other side of the disk, who live in medieval
style castles and have flying machines like look like horses.  The
Americans meet the descendants of the continent of Mu, who are
technologically and politically advanced.  There's never any
question about who the good guys are or who the bad guys are.

     Except for the interesting premise (which does not bear close
scrutiny), this book has little to recommend it.  Aficionados of
early manned flight might find some of the aviation descriptions
interesting, but otherwise it's nothing special.

                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                        ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Re: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul
Date: 8 Jan 85 21:38:55 GMT

> By the way, does anyone have any other information on him [Somtow
> Sucharitkul] , other than what else he's written? (i.e. who is he?
> where did he come from? is he actually a "he"? or?)

I've read _Mallworld_, _The_Aquiliad_ (sp?), _Starship_and_Haiku_,
and the first two books of the inquestor trilogy,
_Light_On_the_Sound_ and _The_Throne_of_ _Madness_.  He's also
written a short story collection about the inquest and a mainstream
novel, _Vampire_Junction_, under the name S. P. Somtow.

The first two are written with Sucharitkul's bizarre sense of humor.
Mallword is about an audit of the human race taken by a governing
race of aliens, with samples of human life taken from a planet which
is a huge shopping mall.  _Mallworld_ and
...Thanks_for_all_the_fish_ are the two books I've read most
recently, and I liked _Mallworld_ better.  So, for humorous sf, read
Mallworld.

_The_Aquiliad_ is about an alternate universe where the Roman empire
does not fall, but discovers the New World.  It's not quite so
funny, but it has its moments -- for instance, the names of Roman sf
authors.  (I'm a fan of P.J Agricola.)

_Starship_and_Haiku_ is a strange piece of serious sf.  It takes
place after a nuclear war, and Japan is the only country that
survived more or less intact, although the culture has become more
traditional.  It stuck me as realy strange while I was reading it,
but it's still a good book.

Finally, the Inquestor trilogy.  This is his best work.  Included
are a game of power and wars, sentinent stars, whale-like
intelligent beings which sing songs of light, and utopias both false
and true.  The Inquestor's job is the investigation of utopias, and
their destruction, since utopias ALWAYS have a flaw.  There is,
however, a flawless utopia.  Inquestors who have visited this utopia
are working for the overthrow of the inquest.  That's only a basic
explanation of the plot -- there's quite a bit more to these amazing
books.  There is also a book of inquest short stories, published by
a different publisher, which I have not read.  The third book of the
trilogy is due this spring.  The Inquestor trilogy is truly great
writing, and necessary reading.

Some biography -- he is indeed male.  I'm not sure of his country of
origin or ancestery .  Sucharitkul is a composer as well as a writer
-- as is fairly evident from his books.  He is currently writing an
opera with Gene Wolfe.  For a picture of Sucharitkul, and a short,
strange article by him, see _The_Faces_of_Science_Fiction_ by Patti
Perret.  This recent book has pictures of just about everyone in sf.
It's good, despite a tendency to pose authors with computers,
Rubic's cubes, and airbrushed pictures of planets.  My personal
favorite is one of Thomas Disch reflected in his toaster, with a
poem by him.

Has anyone out there read _Vampire_Junction_ or Disch's
_The_Businessman_ or Wolfe's _Love_Free_Love? (do I have that last
turned inside out?)  I'd like to hear about them.

Sorry if all this is more (or less) than you wanted...

                                Laurence Roberts
                                ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 85 22:18 EST
From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul

>is he actually a he?

yes

Besides _Mall_World_ (or is it _Mallworld_?), he has also written a
very funny book called _The_Aquiliad_ about romans, indians and
dinosaurs, and some serious stuff I haven't read, such as
_Starship_and_Hiaku_(sp?)  Has anybody out there read this?

Mark

------------------------------

From: amd!jimb@topaz (Jim Budler)
Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?
Date: 8 Jan 85 06:07:20 GMT

mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) writes:
>Do you mean 'Dilvish the Damned'?  This was billed as a collection
>of short stories, I think, though they do sort of tie together.
>...                            It doesn't say much about how
>Dilvish got out of hell, though.
>...
>If there are other Dilvish stories, I'd like to know about them.

The other book is 'The Changing Land'.  I've read both of them and
enjoyed both of them.

 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 982-6547
 UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!jimb
 Compuserve:    72415,1200
 The Source:    STW265

------------------------------

From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz (sonntag)
Subject: Where has Zelazney gone?
Date: 8 Jan 85 17:03:43 GMT

    Has something happened to Zelazney?  It seems as though it's
been an awfully long time since he's published a new novel.  He
hasn't retired or anything like that, has he?
    On a similar note, how many of you remember a novel called "The
Witches of Karres"?  The ending of the book seemed to set the stage
for a sequel, but one has never appeared.  It's author, (whose name
I've forgotten) hasn't been publishing any other stuff, either.
Maybe someday we'll get the sequel.

Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
    "Step right up, get your free TANSTAAFL!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 85 10:21:58 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Steve Dennett's Story Request

Uncle Memory suggests:

  R.A.Lafferty's Camaroi story (one of the two). Either it's "Polity
  and Education Among The Cameroi", or the other one.  Reprinted in
  many anthologies, deservedly.

I believe you can find similar theories in Robert Heinlein's MOON IS
A HARSH MISTRESS, also, in the latter portion where Prof de la Paz &
co are debating how to set up the new lunar government.

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 14:19:07-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: Story Request answered

The story is in "Nine Hundred Grandmothers", by R.A. Lafferty. You
want to read "Polity and Customs of the Camiroi". And then, of
course, you want to read the rest of the book.

"That way lies rump of skunk and madness."
Don   Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  8 Jan 1985 12:52:06-PST
From: vickrey%lite.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Who/What is a NIMROD?

Today the term "Nimrod" came up in conversation, and somebody had to
ask "What does it *MEAN*?"

Well, we all agreed that it means ding-dong, but now we don't know
where it comes from.  I seem to remember Nimrod as a character in a
book or short story; can anybody supply pointers?

Susan

------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Who/What is a NIMROD?
Date: 9 Jan 85 15:20:48 GMT

> Today the term "Nimrod" came up in conversation...  Well, we all
> agreed that it means ding-dong, but now we don't know where it
> comes from.  I seem to remember Nimrod as a character in a book or
> short story; can anybody supply pointers?

Susan, the only NIMROD I know is in Genesis.  He was the ruler in
power when the Tower of babel was being built.  As the unfinished
tower was a testimoney to mankind's foolishness this may indeed be
the connection.

Or did the person mean "nimnull" (sp?) from Mork and Mindy. (No!
No!  Honest!  I never watched it ..... just heard people talking
about it!

Fred Avolio
301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA:  grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 1985 1008-CST
From: Dan <NICHOLS%ti-csl.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: AWARDS

     Can anyone send me a list or tell me where I can obtain a list
of the following awards:

Nebula - 1979, 1981, 1982
Hugo   - 1981, 1982
World Fantasy - 1981, 1982

I know Locus always reports the awards, but I no longer have many of
my back issues. Thanks for any help.

                             Dan

------------------------------

From: siemens!steve@topaz
Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you remembe
Date: 8 Jan 85 21:03:00 GMT

The second was "The Wizard of Mars".  In the beginning of the movie
they were attacked by vacuum-cleaner monsters.  Very very bad.  In
case you hadn't guessed, it was supposed to parallel "The Wizard of
Oz".  Another movie that took an old story and Marsified it was
"Robinson Crusoe of Mars", which I thought was real good, back when
I was 10 or so.

------------------------------

From: pegasus!naiman@topaz (Ephrayim J. Naiman)
Subject: Another one of those "Do you remember ..."
Date: 31 Dec 84 23:36:44 GMT

Does anyone remember these two movies :

1) The Earth is splitting up and the last scene is a man and a woman
   looking on as a big chunk of the Earth splits off and forms a new
   moon thereby stopping whatever bad that was going to happen to
   the Earth.  I think the catalyst was that someone was digging to
   the Earth's core for geo-thermal energy.

2) Some astronauts are orbiting Mars and some previous civilization
   on Mars brings them down to fix some sort of machine that fools
   around with time.  The Martians' faces were in pillars.

Any ideas ?
                                Thanx,
==> Ephrayim J. Naiman
@ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4,allegra,ahuta,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi,...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

From: chabot%amber.DEC@topaz (l s chabot)
Subject: Re: Movie/book combinations
Date: 8 Jan 85 19:29:54 GMT

Please pardon if this is a deadly-old topic, but along the lines of
Heinlein and Herbert contributing to movies based on novels, Philip
K. Dick was consulted on "Bladerunner"
(_Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep_).

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:34:50-EST (Wed)
From: Susan Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: STAR-LOST

I too remember this series - it was on on Sunday mornings (!) and I
*liked* it.  I read the book, Phoenix Without Ashes, and liked it
too (it's still around someplace).  The ship was peopled with
examples of as many earth cultures/geographical areas as they could
cram in - I think the earth was about to be destroyed, or some such.
It wasn't great, but it could have been with the proper
writers/producers.  (I like naive heros, so you have to make
allowances - but I didn't like Lost in Space.)

                                        Sue

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jan 85 0936-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jan 85 0936-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Hambly & A Contest,
                    Films - 2010 (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Short note on The Darwarth Trilogy (maybe slight spoiler at
Subject: end)
Date: 8 Jan 85 14:26:55 GMT

The *Darwarth Trilogy by Barbara Hambly has been out for a few
years, but having just finished reading the books I wanted to share
a few thoughts.  This is not a review nor is it profound. :-) The
books (in paper by Del Rey books) are: *The Time of the Dark*, *The
Walls of Air*, and *The Armies of Daylight*.

I found this trilogy very enjoyable and quite exciting.  This is
probably the first series that I have read with such a terrific
woman main character.  I mean by that, the character of Gil was very
well done. (Anyone recommend other fantasy books with good woman
main characters?) The other characters were also very good.  Worthy
of noting is Ingold, the wizard.  It is *so* hard, I imagine, to
write a book with a wizard main character and not have him/her
look/act/sound like Gandalf.  Ingold is a unique individual.

The ending, also, was very satisfying.  It was a surprise to me when
the solution to the menace of the Dark was revealed and while the
ending could only be classified as "happy", it did hold the promise
of problems and hardships ahead along with hope. (I contrast this
with the ending of *The Belgariad* series by Eddings -- which I also
recommend -- in which everyone was happy, together, wonderful,
cheerful, clapping, singing, dancing -- I exaggerate -- etc. ala the
too-happy ending of *The Return of the Jedi*.)

         ****************** TINY SPOILER *******************

One final thought.  The idea of romance between a commoner and a
person of royal blood is not new.  And, in general, I think people
tend to think of women being attracted to such stories and ideas.
(Cinderella/Prince, Snow White/Prince, other romance storeis and
novels...) But I think this is just as an attractive idea for men --
a commoner-man catching the attention of a queen/princess.  I
enjoyed this development in this story and also in the book *Saving
the Queen* by Wm.  F Buckley. (STQ is a spy novel but is the only
other book I can remember reading with such a relationship.)

Fred Avolio 301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: First(?) annual(?) round robin short story contest
Date: 28 Dec 84 08:09:58 GMT

Well, here it is.  The contest that nobody has been demanding: The
first and possibly last annual net.sf-lovers round robin short story
contest.

The idea is simple.  A high percentage of sf readers are known to be
frustrated authors, this contest gives you a chance to take out some
of that frustration.  Here are the rules.  I have appended part one
of an sf short story below.  Your mission is to write part two.
Simple right?  Where, you ask, does the contest part come in?  Well,
it's like this.  I'm asking you to send your part 2's to me by
netmail , and the person who I judge has best continued the story
will have his part 2 posted as the first winner.

Of course, I can't keep you from posting it own your own, but where
would be the fun in that?  There are a few requirements for a
winning entry.  First and foremost, don't end the story.  Second,
don't send me anything I would hesitate to post except as rot13.
Third, it should be good (whether or not you think part 1 is good).
Make your submissions a reasonable length also, I think 2 pages
would be sufficient for most purposes.  Finally, there will be a
slight penalty for killing off either of the main characters -- you
can do it, but it had better be worth it.

I think you can take the story in many directions, adventure, humor
who knows, perhaps even mystery or romance.  I doubt very much that
it will go anywhere near the way I envisioned it when I plotted it 8
or so years ago, but that's ok, surprise me.

If I get at least 3 respones to this, I will post a winner and go
ahead and ask for part 3's, otherwise, the contest ends
(ignominiously) right here.  It's in your hands now!

                        The Tower of the Sun
                               Part 1
                                 by
                             Ted Nolan

        Mertion flexed his hindlegs luxuriously, relaxing under the
singleminded ministrations of his attending workers. He allowed his
mind to wander to the fast approaching queening flight. Now there
was heaven. To soar the clouds, his sleek wings driving his
glistening body faster and farther than any of his competing
brothers, to catch his intended, the beautiful Mother of All as she
darted teasingly ahead of the drone pack and to know that brief
final ecstasy of mating.

        He shook his head in irritation as the workers started to
groom his antennae.  Ecstasy, yes he could deal with that. It was
just that recently, the "final" part of it was beginning to seem a
little much.  There was still so much to do, there were never enough
drones to do the research that workers were too practical to fool
with and after the queening flight, there would be none.  Who would
invent the cargo balloons, the grub warmers and sting debarbers
while the new generation matured? And what about his own work, the
flying of the mind?

        There was so little time.  As the workers started to clean
each pane of his huge multi-faceted eyes, Mertion began the mental
exercises to free his mind from his body, the discipline he had
developed and that would doubtless die with him. Suddenly, his
perspective changed, and he watched with interest from above as the
workers flicked at an minute dirt spot on one of his lenses, but he
couldn't linger here, he had to try again the barrier he had come to
know so well and with such disgust.  He hurled himself,not exactly
upward, but outward. It wasn't movement in any physical direction he
suspected, but more of an attuning of the senses to a more
fundamental reality.

        As always, he came up on the barrier with no advance
warning.  It stretched in all directions a formless gray nothing,
less substantial than the thinnest mist but as impenetrable as the
bedrock of the hive's foundation. Mertion began to slide along the
surface looking fruitlessly for the opening he knew had to be there
somewhere.  As always, he thought , there is no limit to the Great
Ones' creation so this cannot be an ending.  Time seemed fluid in
this world of mind, but after what seemed to him a long interval of
searching, he took the thought to a conclusion that had escaped him
before.  There is no limit to creation, therefore the limit must be
in me.  He stopped, considered the strange thought from all sides
and found it sound.  He was at the limits of his mind, not his
universe.

        The thought goaded him, pampered but ignored what did a
drone have besides his mind?  He would accept no limits on that.  He
tensed himself and made the ultimate leap that he suddenly knew as
the final inevitable result of his studies and.. looking down on his
mind as he had earlier looked down on his body, saw the built up
prejudices of his racial heritage and rearing.  Saw them and erased
them, only a mind newborn could solve the problem he had set
himself, the knowledge, yes, keep that, but the viewpoint had to go.
Finally, the strain overcame him, and he fell back into himself, the
moments of metaknowledge gone, but the difference..He laughed with
joy.

        The surface he had perceived as formless gray was now a
riotous kaleidoscopic rainbow of color and form, riddled with
portals and lines of ethereal force flashing between them. He
floated for a timeless instant, entranced with the wonder of it all,
and then he dived for the portal nearest him.  Die he might soon
enough, but till then, he would live as no drone ever had.

                        *       *       *

        The battle moved furiously around Rale as he yelled orders
to the men of his squad.  "Fall back damn it.. they've almost got us
surrounded!".  He swung his heavy sword furiously, trying to stem
the sudden unexpected onslaught of the Aldwin forces. The clangour
of weapons and the confused shouting of troops were deafening.
According to the Relban spies in Aldwin the thrust into this part of
the Relban line was supposed to be just a feint.  The king had
placed Rale and his mercenaries there to provide token resistance,
withdrawing the royal legions to the south where the real attack was
to fall.  Rale fell back swearing.  There had been treachery
somewhere, the whole damn Aldwin army was coming through the pass.
Heads were sure to roll over this bit of nonsense.  And mine could
be the first, he acknowledged grimly.  They had sent a rider down
the line early on, but Rale doubted very much that they could get
more troops in time to keep the Aldwins from marching right to the
heart of Relba, and right over Rale and his men.

        He parried again and caught a thrown spear on his shield.
His principal foe ducked in reaction to almost being shafted by the
toss from his own rear line and Rale spitted him before he could
raise his guard again.  Stupid fools, no coordination , what the
hell was a spearman doing behind the swordsmen? It there weren't so
damn many of them this would be easy. He gave ground again.  Or if
we had some archers.  Suddenly, he felt a shooting pain in the back
of his skull as if someone had hit him full on with a bludgeon.  He
crumpled to his knees, his last feeling ,as darkness closed over
him, was dull surprise.
                        *      *      *

When he woke again, the sun was sinking over the horizon, casting
long bloody shadows over the corpse strewn field.  He shuddered and
closed his blurry eyes.  Dead, he thought, I've been left for dead.
Then the next logical step... well, am I?  It seemed not, though he
might have been more comfortable that way.  His head was one massive
ache, feeling easily big enough for two people.

        "Funny you should think that".  Rale looked around wildly
for the voice; there was no one there.  "Actually, you can't look
close enough.  Allow me to introduce my self.  You may call me
Mertion".

        Rale knew then, he was worse than dead.  He was possessed.

END OF PART 1

Ted Nolan                  ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle      ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206

[Moderator's Note:  Please mail your submissions DIRECTLY to Ted.
I will post the next part (and the winner) when announced]

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  9 Jan 1985 07:15:53-PST
From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
Subject: 2010 responses

This is in response to some points raised by S. C. Colbath in V10
#11:

        If I read correctly, the planet the Discovery is going to is
        Saturn, not Jupiter, and the moon is Japetus, not Europa.

Read Clarke's introduction to 2010 (the book) for a justification of
the discrepancies.  He decided that where 2001 (the book) conflicted
with 2001 (the movie), he would follow the movie in writing the
sequel.  Thus, Discovery orbits Jupiter, not Saturn, in 2010.

        When Dave Bowman returned to the Discovery, he piloted the
        pod into the docking bay manually, not by risking explosive
        decompression via the airlock.

Nope.  Hal refused to allow Dave Bowman back into the pod bay,
fearing Dave would "jeopardize" the mission.  Dave used an emergency
airlock not under Hal's control to get back in.  Dave forgot his
space suit's helmet in his haste to rescue Frank Poole, and had to
risk exposure to vacuum to return to the ship.  This was more or
less the same in book and movie, I think.

        Does anyone know what that small thing was that flew out of
        the airlock when it was opened?  I have been wracking my
        brain trying to figure out if it had any significance in
        2001.

Interestingly, this was covered in 2010 (the book).  It was a small
scrap of paper.  One of the characters (Floyd?) wondered if it might
be some vital clue or message left by Bowman, which now floated
forever out of reach.  It never came up again, though, so I guess it
was only a bit of local color.
                                        -- Roger Goun

ARPA:    goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}
         !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
         100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:     (617) 689-1675

"The above does not necessarily represent the opinion of Digital
Equipment Corporation, which probably doesn't care about this stuff
anyhow."

------------------------------

Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 08:49:38-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #11

I have not been around for a couple of weeks and my review of 2010
may therefore repeat what has already been said.

SPOILER WARNING (btw)

I thought it was OK, but just. If I had not read the book I would
have NO IDEA what was going on and why, and as it was I was a little
confused.

Imagine you had not read the book and were not an avid SF fan. Would
you really have figured out what happened to Jupiter? No one ever
says.  "All these worlds are yours" -- would you figure out that
they meant the moons of Jupiter? Also, Bowman's wanderings were
glossed over very quickly, too fast for anyone not familiar with
what he was doing to really understand. I thought the book was
better than the movie on general grounds, as well. 2010 was
incredibly preachy about US-Soviet amity and ended on an
unbelievable note. If the US and USSR were so stupid as to be about
to nuke each other, why should they suddenly wise up because Jupiter
explodes? Give me a break.

Nitpicking on scientific grounds: The astro/cosmonauts using those
little rocket packs did not ever spin, yaw, etc. even though they
often did not fire them along their centers of gravity. In
particular, when they were sending the template for their connecting
tube between the Leonov and Discovery, one -naut fired his before
the other did and the thing still went in a perfectly straight line.
Also, it seemed to me that there was gravity on the Leonov at times
when there shouldn't be.

And the Leonov's fiery trail through Jupiter's atmosphere--what is
there to oxidate, or was the Leonov specifically designed to vent
oxygen to impress any hypothetical Jupiter-dwellers?

From my viewpoint of having already read the book, the movie was all
right.  However, if I was one of the typical viewing public, I would
have left the theatre completely confused.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 85 18:49:00 PST
From: <latzko@nb>
Subject: Floyds computer

In response to Tom Galloway unless my eyes were totally shot when I
saw 2010 ( possible considering the company ) the computer on the
beach was a Hewlett Packard HP-110.  A much better computer than the
Apple //c but still not what one could expect for thirty-five years
from now.  Even a Convergent Workslate may have looked better.

cheers
alex
<latzko@ru-blue>
<!harvard!topaz!andromeda!latzko.uucp>

------------------------------

Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 23:28:32-PST
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: The Monolith

As I recall (I can't find my copy of 2001), the monolith was
originally called TMA-1 for Tycho Magnetic Anomaly One.  The funny
thing here is that the second monolith was called TMA-2, although
(a) it was not in Tycho and (b) it was not magnetic.  Of course, it
could be my memory that's anomalous instead!  (Maybe TMA stood for
The Mon Alith?)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 Jan 85 1224-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 85 1224-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:

        Books - Adams & Anthony & Piper & Collecting Books &
                Book Requests (3 msgs) & Best Sellers & 
                Female Protagonists & Book Requests Answered (2 msgs),
        Television - Bad TV & Star Lost,
        Miscellaneous - Western Recon II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 85 10:18:18 PST (Friday)
From: Morrill.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: So Long, And Thanks ....

SPOILER WARNING!!! If you haven't read the book you may not want to
read on.

Douglas Adams definitely opened a lot of unanswered questions in his
latest installment of the Hitchiker's trilogy.  I'm curious if
anyone out there has a theory on any of these questions.

1) What is the Earth doing back in existance?

2) Why don't Fenchurch's feet touch the ground?

3) Why did Arthur, Fenchurch and Wonko the Sane receive gray crystal
globes from the dolphins and why does Arthur's globe have only half
of the inscription, "So Long, and Thanks ..."

4) Why would Trillian marry Zaphod and bear his children?

5) Is Marvin really dead?

6) And as Arthur was about to ask, why does Ford keep returning to
Earth?

Any ideas?

Toby

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony-Xanth
Date: 10 Jan 85 06:59:40 GMT

I really enjoyed A Spell for Chameleon, but Xanth wears very thin
after the first trilogy. I agree; get the hourglass book out.

Cheryl Nemeth
All opinions are my own, of course.

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (e.leeper)
Subject: Re: little fuzzy
Date: 8 Jan 85 13:21:51 GMT

The "Little Fuzzy" series is interesting for a number of reasons.  I
have only read the first two books (LITTLE FUZZY and THE OTHER HUMAN
RACE, a.k.a. FUZZY SAPIENS), and found only the first worth reading.

However, I feel I should point out that LITTLE FUZZY bears a
remarkable resemblance to a book entitled YOU SHALL KNOW THEM by
Vercors (pen name for someone whose real name I forget).  THE OTHER
HUMAN RACE bears a remarkable resemblance to OLIVER TWIST.

YOU SHALL KNOW THEM deals with much the same issues as LITTLE FUZZY
(a race of pre-men are discovered in the jungle--they are considered
animals, and the main character impregnates one of the females in
order to get the courts to test their humanity).  The two of them
were sort of cobbled together in 1970 into a movie called
SKULLDUGGERY (which starred Burt Reynolds).

                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 16:04:21-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Collecting Books

Collecting Old and Out of Print Books

If you are half way serious about collecting books, and/or, if you
are interested in collecting new limited edition books, then you
should subscribe to LOCUS magazine.  Locus carries announcements of
new books, display ads of large and small publishers, and classified
ads for mail order book companies.  Almost all small press books are
announced here.  Most mail order dealers of collectible books
advertise here.

LOCUS Publications                   $24.00 for 12 issues 2nd class
PO Box  13305                        $31.00 for 12 issues 1st class
Oakland, CA  94661

It is easy to disagree with the editorial material, and even with
their nine Hugos, but their book announcements and advertisements
are very useful.

One of the largest dealers in science fiction and fantasy literature
is

L. W. Currey, Inc.                  catalog $2.50
Antiquarian Bookseller
Elizabethtown, New York  12932

They also carry most new hardcover sf and fantasy, including small
publisher books in a separate catalog.

In their July 1984 catalog # 77, they list
Herbert, Frank.  Dune.  Chilton Books [1965] 1st ed.  Signed by
Herbert.  $600.00 (Herbert's signiture is not rare.)

If you are interested in obtaining a copy of Dune in hardcover,
Putnam reprinted it in hardcover last year (1984) at the same time
as Heretics.  It should still be available at normal new book prices
(<$20.00).

For very, very serious collectors, a new catalog is coming from The
Book Sail PO Box 5728 Orange, CA 92667 of rare and collectible
science fiction and fantasy books and memorabilia.  It will have
things like the original manuscript for Stoker's `Dracula'.  The
catalog is quite a production by itself, a full color Rowena cover,
forward by Bradbury, and a new short story by Bloch.  The deluxe
hardcover will be signed by all three, plus a short story by William
Nolan.  Softcover $45.00 Deluxe hardcover $85.00

For those of you that do not have access to a real bookstore
(Walden/Dalton is to a real bookstore like McDonalds is to a real
restaurant), I recommend
F. and S. F. Book Co., Inc.
P.O. Box 415                                   free catalog
Staten Island, New York 10302
They carry a very complete line of hardcover, paperback, and small
publisher science fiction and fantasy.  They normally do not carry
signed and numbered editions.  The good part is 10 percent off on
orders over $10., 20 percent off over $25. and 25 percent off plus
free shipping over $100.  No sales tax unless order is from New
York.  I have ordered from them (wholesale) for over five years.

Randy Neff.     NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 1985  14:51 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Name the Book...

I read this when in Junior High, so i'm fuzzy on details.  If anyone
can identify the author/title/publisher etc. I would appreciate it.

The book is set in a far future Earth whose sole export to the rest
of the (non-human) galaxy is its medical technology.  The hero is
the first non-human medical student sent to earth.  The book covers
his training, and some of his early career.

I believe that this is not part of the "Med Series" by Leinster
(sp?) or of the "Sector General" series by White.  I think it may
have been by Alan E. Nourse, but I'm not at all sure.

Dean F. Sutherland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 1985  14:55 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Can anyone identify

this book?  It was written by Alan E. Nourse (I think...)

Hero is a member of "Earth Intelligence".  He is trying to catch a
spy for the "bad guys" (I don't remember who they are).  The spy has
the ability to teleport himself from any point on a planet to any
other, or to teleport from ground to orbit (or vice versa).  I
recall that the Earth empire held together because their military
could supposedly cause suns to nova.

The only other thing that I remember is that many characters turn
out to actually be different people than the reader is led to
believe.  In fact, at least one character really isn't the person HE
thought he was...

Dean F. Sutherland

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 Jan 85 17:26:06-EST
From: Michael Eisenberg <DUCK%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: request for information

I'm looking for the title and author of a book of SF short stories
that I saw about 10 years ago... Can anyone out there help?  I only
read a couple of the stories; both, I think, took place on Mars.
One involved some explorers who get trapped in a large cavern
containing a monster that plucks out the eyes of its victims (pretty
gruesome, huh?).  Another involves a man who (along with a party of
others) finds a sort of "ghost town" in which the people were killed
by weird creatures that enfold themselves about the heads of their
prey. (Also pretty gruesome.)

I know this is all rather vague; I'm not even positive about the
information presented above (it's been a long time). But I do
remember that the book was terrifically written... Does this ring a
bell, anyone?

Thanks in advance...
                                                - Mike Eisenberg
                                                  (DUCK@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 10 Jan 85 19:31:20-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Best Sellers

Something I've wondered about for a while is what SF books are the
most popular (ie. sell the most copies)?  Are they the same ones
that win awards?  Are they the ones promoted as "mainstream" books?
Or are they classics that go on selling year in and year out?

Has anyone out there ever seen a listing of bestselling SF books
for, say the last 5 years, 10 years, etc?  Anyone know where this
might be found (or the numbers to compute such lists)?

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985  22:44 EST
From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #13

in regards to the request for fantasy literature with a strong
female protaganist read c.j.cherryh's morgaine trilogy.  it is good
solid work though it is only marginally fantasy (more sf than f).

for those not familiar with c.j.cherryh's work i cannot emphasize
enough how good it is.  read it and have your mind blown.

                          shades/g.d.cooper

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 85 18:01:05 PST (Thu)
To: Steve Dennett <DENNETT%SRI-NIC.ARPA@uci-750a>
Subject: Re: Story Request
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>    This is the slimmest of clues, but years ago I read a book
> (story?) in which the human protagonist visited an alien world
> with a unique approach toward legislation.  As I recall, the way
> the system worked was that anyone could make a law about anything,
> and any law could be repealed by a vote of x (some small number --
> 5?)  other inhabitants.  The catch was that if an inhabitant
> created more than y (again a small number) of laws that were
> repealed, the lawmaker was severely dealt with (executed?)  Okay,
> Dr.  Memory, what work by what author did this scenario appear in?
>
> Steve Dennett
> dennett@sri-nic

   Sounds a little like Frank Herbert's "Dosadi Experiment", which
is one of 3 or 4 books in the same universe.  The inhabitants were
the Gowachin, a rather frog-like people with (to us) very odd ideas
of legal proceedings.  The protagonist was a human (Jorge McKie),
one of the very few whose legal degree was acknowledged by the
Gowachin bar, called in to defend a Gowachin against charges of
monstrous atrocities on the planet Dosadi.  I don't recall anything
about anybody at all making new laws, or about their repeal, but I
believe that a trial's results could establish new law, and a
defendant who managed to be acquitted might be torn apart by the
spectators.  I don't recall specifically whether unsuccessful
lawmakers were executed, but it would certainly be consistent with
Gowachin practice.
   Sound at all familiar?
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 12:07 EST
From: "Allan C. Wechsler" <acw@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #12

The story Steve Dennett wants, about a society with bizarre
legislative customs, is "Polity and Law among the Camiroi" by R. A.
Lafferty.  It's a companion-piece to "Primary Education among the
Camiroi", same author.  I love Lafferty, in small doses.  My two
favorites are "Nine Hundred Grandmothers" and "Land of the Great
Horses".  I don't like the man's novels, probably because they
exceed the recommended dosage levels.

   --- Allan

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: Any "V" fans out there.......?
Date: 7 Jan 85 08:50:53 GMT

Isn't it amazing how many BAD programs you will watch when you're
young?  I practically grew up on Space 1999 (had to - I had seen
every Star Trek about 12 times, knew the lines better than the
actors).

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: STAR-LOST
Date: 10 Jan 85 15:37:49 GMT

Is this that same television show that Harlan Ellison was talked
into writing for in Canada, but then stopped and even refused to let
them use his name on it when they, in his opinion, hacked both his
pride and his story to pieces?  If so, I would like to see some of
it, for he gives a rather humorous account of the fiasco as part his
book, "Stalking the Nightmare," or something like that.

derek
Derek Zahn @ wisconsin
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek
derek@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1985  02:18 EST
From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: western recon ii poem

        as some of you may have heard, last october, at western
recon ii, there was a great deal of trouble with the salt lake city
downtown hilton.  it was so excessive that marion zimmer bradley
called up charlie brown at locus to give him the story.  whether
this was printed or not i am unsure as i keep forgetting to
subscribe (that reminds me my analog subscription ran out [oh well
{sigh}]).
        anyway as an attendee of this convention i was so sorely
tried and peeved that i wrote the first two verses of a poem about
the trials and tribulations of western recon ii.  the first verse
was printed up on a home computer, by a friendly soul, along with
the address for the salt lake city better business bureau and the
salt lake city tourist administration center.
        i read both verses at the closing ceremonies and was
requested to finish it.  i did.  so here is the entire version of

           If Rudyard Kipling Had Attended Western ReCon II

I went into a Hilton-'ouse as a conventioneer,
The manager 'e up an' sez, "we serve no fans in here."
The girls be'ind the desk they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
   O it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon go away";
   But it's "Thank you, Western ReCon", when the bills are due to
           pay--
   The bills are due to pay, my boys, the bills are due to pay,
   O it's "Thank you, Western ReCon" when the bills are due to pay.

I went into a Hilton as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me down to Denny's an' round the shoppin'-malls,
But when it comes to payin', Lord! they'll pack us in the 'alls!
   For it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon, wait
           outside";
   But it's "Special rate for ReCon" when the debit's on the
           ride--
   The debit's on the ride, my boys, the debit's on the ride,
   O it's "Special rate for ReCon" when the debit's on the ride.

I went into the banquet after I 'ad tracked it down,
For they kept a movin' it an' sent us all aroun'.
I settled at my table an' set waitin' in my seat,
An' then they up an' tells us we must pay afore we eat.
   Aye it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon hope ya die";
   But it's "Savior of the Hilton" when the 'otel funds run dry--
   The 'otel funds run dry, my boys, the 'otel funds run dry,
   O it's "Savior of the Hilton" when the 'otel funds run dry.

I went into a Hilton for the bardic circle there,
An' a guardsman comes an' tells me "we'll 'ave no singin' 'ere.
We know the 'all is paid for an' that you draw a crowd,
But the Hilton doesn't like you; because you're too damn proud."
   Now it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon you're a dud";
   But it's "Hilton loves a ReCon" when the ink runs red as
           blood--
   The ink runs red as blood, my boys, the ink runs red as blood,
   O it's "Hilton loves a ReCon" when the ink runs red as blood.

              Geoffrey D. Cooper (in the Public Domain.)

        i hope that you enjoy it at that you will sniff out what
happened (most of the poem is literally true).  those people who
were there and were expecting me to send them a copy well i will,
when i catch up on my back mail.  right now i'm at about 1976 but i
hope to catch up by the end of the decade.

                                keep the faith people
                                shades/g.d.cooper
snail:  47 manomet ave hull, ma  02045 (617) 925-1099
arpa:   mly.g.shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 Jan 85 1317-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 85 1317-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 12 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:

     Books - Bellairs (2 msgs) & Chandler & Eddings (2 msgs) &
             Sucharitkul (2 msgs) & Zelazny (3 msgs),
     Films - A Crack in the World (3 msgs) & The Worst SF Movie & 
             Valis,
     Miscellaneous - Who/What is a Nimrod (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tikal!rmorgan@topaz (R J Morgan)
Subject: John Bellairs
Date: 9 Jan 85 17:33:17 GMT

Several years ago I ran across a surprising little book called
_The_Face_in_the_Frost_, by John Bellairs.  Has anyone seen, know
of, or better, read any other books by the same author?

Thanks,
R J Morgan

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz
Subject: Re: John Bellairs
Date: 11 Jan 85 18:42:35 GMT

> Several years ago I ran across a surprising little book called
> _The_Face_in_the_Frost_, by John Bellairs.  Has anyone seen, know
> of, or better, read any other books by the same author?

        John Bellairs is one of the MOST difficult authors to find
old books by. I have a total of seven, and I THINK that is about
half of his total books (I can't even find a bibliography of his
stuff).  Most of his books are "young adult", and the ones I have
are:
        The House With a Clock in Its Walls
        The Letter, the Witch, and the Ring
                (the above are part of a trilogy)
        The Curse of the Blue Figurine
        The Mummy the Will and the Crypt
        The Spell of the Sorcerer's Skull
                (the above are a trilogy)
        The Dark Secret of Weatherend

I know of three others (although I have never seen these books)

        The Pendant and the Shuffly
        St. Fidgeta and Other Parodies
        The Figure in the Shadows (the third in the House and Letter
                trilogy)

I have heard vague rumours that there is another triolgy, but
nothing is sure. They are all quite good books, he is wonderful on a
rainy sunday afternoon.
                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: A. Bertram Chandler?
Date: 9 Jan 85 17:28:12 GMT

Last time I looked at LOCUS (several months ago), it seemed A.
Bertram Chandler had suffered a stroke.  Anyone know for sure the
state of his health (if any -- I hope he's not gone.)?

"Take this //JOB and run it!"

Berry Kercheval   Zehntel Inc.  (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 1985 21:41-EST
From: sue@mit-grape-nehi   (Susan Felshin)
Subject: Eddings' Belgariad

It's fairly clear that the titles of the 5 books of the Belgariad
refer to chess pieces and concepts.  However, not being much of a
chess player, I didn't see any relation between the plot and/or
characters of the books and a chess game.  Are there any chess
players out there who liked the books?  What do you think?  I'm
betting that the whole quintology (? pentology? or better, series)
could be translated into a coherent chess game if one only knew how.

                                        Sue Felshin
                                        sue@mit-grape-nehi

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Thanks for the Belgariad recommendation.
Date: 11 Jan 85 01:30:40 GMT

dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight) writes:

>Definitely the best read I've had in quite some time.  I just loved
>the characters.  They seemed so real and likeable.  I strongly
>second the recommendation.
>                               D. Bartholomew

        I would like to add an interesting observation about the
series that no-one on the net has yet brought up(as far as I know).
*All* the characters and *all* the races are *pure* *stereotypes*.
The incredible thing is that Eddings was still able to make them
"real and likeable" as Mr. Bartholomew says!  Amazing!

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
{trwrb|allegra|burdvax|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|sdcsvax}
  !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

From: ddb%mrvax.DEC@topaz (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: Somtow Sucharitkol (sp?)
Date: 9 Jan 85 16:11:14 GMT

He exists, he is a he.  He was a guest of honor at Minicon last
year.

In addition to Mallworld, I've seen several other paperbacks
recently.  He also has released a vampire novel, marketed as
mainstream or horror or something, under the pseudonym S. P. Somtow
(publisher thought the horror market couldn't deal with his real
name; at least, that's his story).

You may notice how evasive I'm being about exact titles.  I'm at
work, they are at home.

He will be "sucker guest of honor" (sometimes rendered as
"sucker-it-kol guest of honor" at this year's Minicon.  This is a
longer story than it sounds like....

                -- David Dyer-Bennet
                -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 85 00:28:17 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul

     Somtow Sucharitkul is Indeed Male. He comes from Thailand, and
is in direct line for the throne (although I heard he got slightly
bent out shape recently when they made girls eligible heirs....he
dropped a couple of hundred places). In the dedication to one of his
books (I don't remember which) he thanks a Princess for
something...I believe she is his sponsor. (gives him money and
stuff) He is a rather strange person...I almost met him at last
Lunacon...Someone stuck something near my ear at a party that was
saying "More right, use frash"...I turned and an oriental type was
sticking this camera up to someone else's ear. I was later told this
was Somtow. I have also been told that he sometimes writes columns
for Locus, but of this I am not sure.

     _Light on the Sound_ is one of the most amazing books I have
ever read. I found _Starship and Haiku_ both fascinating and
depressing.  _Mallworld_ I found just plain weird. I haven't had a
chance to read the next Inquestor book, though I *think* I bought
it.....

     I don't know anything about his musicianship. But if anyone is
interested in hearing any more weird stories about him, send me a
usenet address and I will pump my fen friends for more weird Somtow
Stories.....

hugs on all
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: hogpd!jrrt@topaz (R.MITCHELL)
Subject: More on Dilvish
Date: 9 Jan 85 19:41:34 GMT

back in May, I reviewed DILVISH, THE DAMNED and THE CHANGING LAND
for the local SF-club newsletter.  In view of the recent comments on
these two books, I present below that review:

Imagine a heroic figure, endowed with tremendous physical abilities
and magical talents.  Add a hefty dose of tragic flaws.  Stir in
demons, ancient gods, and a powerful mage upon whom the hero has
declared vengeance.  Serve up with the usual trimmings of fair
damsels, bizarre creatures, etc.  What do you have?  Well, if you do
it right and you want a really depressing work, you have Moorcock's
Elric of Melnibone series.  If you do it wrong, without sufficient
attention to the Grand Epic at hand, you get Zelazny's Dilvish
books.

In DILVISH, THE DAMNED and its sequel, THE CHANGING LAND, we follow
Dilvish as he tracks down Jerelak, the evil magician who caused him
to be tortured for 200 years in Hell.  Naturally, Dilvish gets
sidetracked, sent on false scents, etc., all in the fine tradition
of heroic fantasy.  Where Zelazny lets the reader down is in the
details.  Dilvish's universe is not painted with any clarity; I
wanted to know a lot more about Hell, or how Dilvish got his
"demonic metal horse, Black," or what the sociology of the land was
like.  The world never seems tangible.

Zelazny takes the easy way out of the corners he puts Dilvish in.
For instance, early in the first book, much is made about the
invincibility of a foe's armor.  The reader is led to expect an epic
struggle in which the hero (through force of will, potent magic, and
craftiness) manages to eke out a victory.  No such luck.  After
Zelazny raises your expectations, you turn the page to find the
battle already over, with the unsatisfying explanation that the
armor wasn't so invulnerable after all.

All the potentially interesting characters, even Dilvish, have
two-dimensional personalities.  The reader gets the impression that
Dilvish is going through the motions, like a clockwork paladin,
emotionlessly "fulfilling his destiny" without taking a personal
interest in his actions.  At least Elric brooded and fought against
Fate; Dilvish just doesn't come across as a heroic figure, tragic or
otherwise.  If you like dark fantasy, stay away from these two
books.

Rob Mitchell
{ihnp4,allegra}!hogpd!jrrt

------------------------------

From: kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer)
Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?
Date: 10 Jan 85 06:21:58 GMT

>       I first read "The Changing Land" but then picked up the
> other one (I forget its title). This seconds takes place before
> "The Changing Land" but was apparently published after it. Anyone
> know the story behind this curiousity ?

I assume that Zelazny first wrote "The Changing Land" and then
decided that Dilvish was an interesting enough character that he
wrote "Dilvish, the Damned" (which I haven't read yet).  Does anyone
know if the same thing (chronology in story is the opposite of
publication order) happens with "To Die in Italbar" and "Isle of the
Dead"?  (Actually, it's not even clear to me which of those 2
stories is supposed to happen first.)

Mike Kupfer
kupfer@Berkeley
...!ucbvax!kupfer
"He says, 'Thank you very much, but you can have the bottle back.'"

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz
Subject: Re: More on Dilvish
Date: 11 Jan 85 18:48:09 GMT

> Where Zelazny lets the reader down is in the details.  Dilvish's
> universe is not painted with any clarity; I wanted to know a lot
> more about Hell, or how Dilvish got his "demonic metal horse,
> Black," or what the sociology of the land was like.

        But Zelazny NEVER explains anything. In "Isle of the Dead"
there are these Gods running about, who come from no where. In "Nine
Princes in Amber" we have these unicorns and "shadows" that are
never really explained. In "Roadmarks" there are these funny
dragons.  In <etc.>.

        You really can't single out the Dilvish books for this,
Zelazny has always put in full blown universes without explaining
anything about them.
                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 7:33:56 EST
From: "Richard G. Turner //CCTO USARI//" <rturner@amc-hq.arpa>
To: Ephrayim J. Naiman <pegasus!naiman%topaz.arpa@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: Re:  Another one of those "Do you remember ..."

Your movie where the Earth was splitting and a large chunk of the
Earth flies off into space is from "Crack in The Earth" if I
remember correctly.

-rick

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 11 Jan 1985 06:43:20-PST
From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
To: jlr%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: movie request "A Crack in the World"

The movie about a chunk of the Earth splitting off while our heros
watch from a half a mile away is "A Crack in the World".  The
premise is that scientists try to tap the geothermal energy at the
Earth's core by setting off a nuclear explosion deep, deep
underground.  The blast triggers a fault line that starts
propagating around the world.  Get this, though, they think that if
a crack goes all the way around the Earth it will break apart.  They
think that the Earth is held together by its crust the way an egg is
held by its shell.  Nitwits.  Aside from that the movie was fairly
well made.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 Jan 85 22:31:14-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Movie Title

The Movie where the earth's crust is split, and it all ends happily
when the fracture line closes in upon itself, thereby creating a new
moon, is surely

        Crack in the Earth

released (I think) in the early '70s

The only "special effects" are real volcano footage ineptly overlaid
with screaming humans &c.  The science is absurd.  The characters
seem to be cardboard except that they survive temperatures above
451F.  In sum, a fairly good SF movie.

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Worst SF movie
Date: 10 Jan 85 19:59:17 GMT

My vote for worst SF movie is "Horror of Party Beach."

Cheryl Nemeth

------------------------------

From: sdcc3!rich@topaz (rich)
Subject: VALIS
Date: 11 Jan 85 05:36:23 GMT

has any honestly know of the movie VALIS which Phillip Dick claims
his novel(?) VALIS involves???  i dont suppose it was 'The Man Who
Fell to Earth.' ?

mail is more than welcome.
thanks
        -rich

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Who/What is a NIMROD?
Date: 10 Jan 85 05:29:10 GMT

The name "Nimrod", usually seen in connection with the adjectival
phrase "the mighty hunter", is Biblical in origin. I don't have a
Bible handy right now, so I can't give you a pointer, but somewhere
in Genesis is a pretty good bet.

I don't know about the original Nimrod, but you are basically
correct about the current meaning. When you designate someone a
nimrod, you are implying that he is the kind of person who
frequently populates the woods of the northern Midwest during deer
season, exhibiting the following sort of behavior:

Roars down back roads in his four-wheeler, usually with some
like-minded friends and a flask of potent beverage, shooting at
anything that moves (squirrels, domestic animals, farmers, other
hunters, occasionally a deer stupid enough to get in the way) and
some things that don't (road signs, parked cars, barns, birdhouses).
Fortunately, he is usually too drunk to hit what he is aiming at;

Has roughly the same opinion of property lines as Attila the Hun
might have;

Does most of his hunting in wildlife sanctuaries (because that's
where the animals are, dummy!) during the day, and in bars near the
red-light district at night. Sometimes omits the daytime portion of
the hunt entirely.

And, despite all this, usually considers himself to be a regular
wizard with the gun. However, the usual way he bags a deer is to run
one down on the highway.

So the best way to define "nimrod" would be to say "a jerk,
specifically a hunter, who acts in a ridiculous and dangerous manner
while nonetheless retaining a grossly overrated opinion of his
skills".
                                        Bill Laubenheimer
                                        UC-Berkeley Computer Science
     ...Killjoy went that-a-way--->     ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 85 09:33:01 EST
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Nimrod

Nimrod does indeed appear in the Bible (can't do the chapter & verse
bit), where, as I recall, he is called a hunter.  If you look in a
thesaurus under "hunter" or its equivalent, you should find "Nimrod"
used as one of those inflated Victorian-type synonyms (You know, as
when a fox is called "Reynard", a rooster "Chanticleer", etc.)

"Nimrod" as a term of disparagement probably (I have nothing but
memory to back this up with) came from its use in a Bugs Bunny
cartoon, where Bugs, referring to Elmer Fudd as a hunter, says
something like "I can't do that to the little Nimrod."  People
watching who never heard of Nimrod before probably assumed it was
Brooklynese for "dodo" or suchlike.

There.  Amateur etymology, while-U-wait.

                                Chris

[Moderator's Note: Thanks to the many who responded with similar
information.

Jim McKie (mcvax!jim@topaz)
Dick Binder (binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl)
Ridgway@MIT-MULTICS
Dick Grantges (hound!rfg)
L S Chabot (chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl)
Stephen C. Woods (cepu!scw@ucla-cs)
]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 12 Jan 85 2253-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 85 2253-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 13 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:

                  ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "DUNE".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Subject: Dune: the parable
Date: 07 Jan 85 11:45:20 EST (Mon)
From: Marshall Rose <mrose@udel-dewey>

I couldn't resist...

In ancient times there was a city full of many people.  They
differed quite a bit in talent, interest, and ability, but they all
tried to lead full lives.  Many days distant from the city lived a
great sage who knew all about everything.  One day, an artisan
living in the city went forth and travelled to the sage, seeking to
ask him the answer to life and so forth.  This artisan did not
expect a simple answer like "42" (but that, alas, is another story),
but something a lot more detailed.

After a long and arduous journey, the artisan reached the sage. The
sage instructed the artisan for many years as to the answer of the
questions posed by the artisan.  Much wiser, and much older, the
artisan returned to his city.  The elders of the city, upon hearing
that the artisan had returned from talking to the sage, invited the
artisan to come forward and reveal to all the inhabitants of the
city what he had learned.

Since this sounded interesting, a large number of citizens attended
the talk.  Included in the audience were others who had visited the
sage before and we quite wise the ways of sagedom, along with people
who had heard of the sage, but never met him, and those who had
never heard of the sage and didn't know quite what to expect.  The
audience differed quite a bit in talent, interest, and ability, but
were all interested in hearing what was to be said.  The artisan
gave a "short" 4 hour talk in which he used lots of audio-visual
aids and hand-waving, skipping over some parts, condensing other
parts, and so on.  After the talk, the artisan went home.

Later that evening, those members of the audience paid the artisan a
visit.  They demanded to know how he could degrade the sacred
teachings of the sage by distorting it thus.  The artisan gave them
two answers.

1. That's Hollywood.

2. That the artisan's talk was geared for an audience of many
talents, interests, and abilities.  Although some in the audience
could fully appreciate the intracies of the sage's teachings, many
could not without visiting the sage themselves.  Furthermore, the
majority of the audience got the gist of what was going on, and
perhaps would be inspired to visit the sage themselves to get the
whole story.

The artisan then mentioned that nearly everyone who hadn't visited
the sage before agreed that the talk was entertaining.

/mtr

------------------------------

From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron@brl-tgr.ARPA>)
Subject: Dune-- Really a joke this time
Date: 8 Jan 85 22:38:27 GMT

One of the local drama critics suggested a good ending line for
"Moby Worm" would be the line:

        Oh Sting, Where is thy death?

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 1985  05:00 EST
From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Having Dune by Halving Dune

> From: Bob Larson <BLARSON%ECLD at ECLA>
> The only way to have a comprehensable 3 or 4 hour Dune movie would
> be to reduce the number of characters...  but then again, we
> wouldn't really have Dune anymore.

Oh, but getting rid of characters is so much fun.  Out of those that
made it to the movie (alas, Count Hrasimir Fenring, my long-standing
favorite minor character, didn't make it) I'd vote for the following
to get the ax:

    1. Feyd.
    2. The Shadout Mapes.
    3. Stilgar Naib.  (Liet-Kynes is vastly more important)
    4. The Princess Irulan.
    5. Duncan Idaho.
    6. Gurney Halleck.
    7. Chani.
    8. The Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV
    9. Assorted Spacing Guild skinheads, punks, and navigators.

This leaves: Leto, Liet-Kynes, Paul, The Lady Jessica, Thufir, The
Baron Harkonnen, Dr. Yueh, The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohammed,
Piter de Vries, (The Beast) Rabban, and Alia, surely enough
characters to act out many of the intrigues woven into the book.

Complaints?  Flames?  Counter-suggestions?  I'd much rather see some
good, healthy second-guessing than some of the reviews that have
been dribbling into my mailbox lately.

JIm

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: Dune rumor
Date: 10 Jan 85 01:19:21 GMT

A persistent rumor informs me that in the original preview showings
of Dune the film was actually 3.75 hours long and has since been cut
back to 2.5.  Some people claim to have actually seen (or know
someone who's seen) the 3.75 hour version.  I haven't seen either
version and have no idea what's been cut, if anything.

Anyone else know?

sitting in a pile of junk on the runway, wondering what happened

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI                          If thy CRT offend thee, pluck
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.                 it out and cast it from thee.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 85 10:03 PST
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Dune file prints to be "protected"

Universal Studios announced that all of the prints of Dune would be
uniquely "security coded" in some magic fashion, to aid in copyright
protection/prosecution.  Each of the 1350 prints will be marked and
tracked, to detect which prints are illegally copied onto
videocassette.

Supposedly, the code will be incorporated in such a way that the
identifying marks will be transferred to any tape or film copies and
could not be edited out.

This will allow them to identify the source of any bootleg copies,
and to prosecute the villians.

To quote from the AP story in the San Diego Union:

"We felt we had no choice in the light of the tremendous interest in
the film and the number of followers of Frank Herbert's works," said
Charles Morgan, the Universal senior vice-president who directs the
company's anti-piracy program.

Does this mean that all Herbert fans are pirates, or just willing to
pay pirates?  Does anyone know how this is done?  I cant think of
any way to mark prints that couldn't be edited off a tape copy.
Looks like security B.S.  to me.

Tom Perrine

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: long version of "Dune"
Date: 9 Jan 85 20:08:16 GMT

Here's a direct quote from an interview with Frank Herbert (in the
LA Weekly) concerning the long version of "Dune":

"       The only way the movie could have been made was if they
spent megabucks on it.  And to be pragmatic about it, that meant
that they had to do a production they could show in theaters
everywhere, and that meant that they had to cut it.  Luckily, we
have about five hours of film.  In fact, we have as much film on the
cutting room floor as we have on the screen.  All the scenes that
everybody misses from the book are all there.  So we are now
discussing doing a special mini-series for T.V. about three or four
years down the pike - essentially the uncut version of the film."

As others have pointed out, many of the things wrong with "Dune" did
not have to do with things left out of the film.  Perhaps a longer
version would fill in gaps and allow them to dump the stupid
voiceovers, perhaps some weak characterizations would become
stronger, perhaps there would be more coherence.  I'd certainly like
to find out, but I think that even at five hours "Dune" would be
heavily flawed.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: opus!kwebb@topaz (Kirk Webb)
Subject: Frank Herbert interview
Date: 9 Jan 85 05:20:04 GMT

Here is an article from the Boulder Daily Camera, Sunday, Jan 6,
1985.  It is by Kathryn Bernheimer, the paper's film critic.

Novelists are notoriously critical of what film directors do to
their books.  They leave too much out.  They try to put too much in.
They distort the author's intention.  They alter the tone.  They
spice the story up with unwarranted sex and violence.  They omit the
best scene.  They rewrite already perfect dialogue.  They change the
ending.

Frank Herbert is the exception, a completely contented writer.

"Dune," to hear Herbert tell it, is not only an admirably accurate
adaptation of his sci-fi classic, it's one hell of a good movie.

You just can't coax a grumble out of the man.  And that's after he's
read the mostly negative reviews.

"The movie is absolutely faithful to the essential thrust of the
book," Herbert said cheerfully during a recent phone interview.  "It
creates a charismatic leader just the way I did.  Some scenes are
precisely the way they are in the book.  Others are better visually.
David (director David Lynch) actually helped my writing by getting
me to think more visually."

Herbert served as technical advisor on "Dune," and reports that the
filmmakers actually listened to him.  He only had to put his foot
down once, and was in perfect agreement on a number of important
points, such as the decision not to cast a well-known actor in the
leading role.  (Newcomer Kyle MacLachlan was cast as Paul Atreides
after a year-long search).

Herbert did not write the screenplay -- at least not the one used,
which was written by Lynch.

"I wrote a dismal screenplay," Herbert candidly remarked.  "It was
too long, and I didn't choose the right visual metaphors.  It's a
major problem to condense a book with so many layers in it."

Since Herbert's first "Dune" book appeared in 1965, followed by four
sequels with a fifth due to be published in the spring, numerous
attempts have been made to bring his best seller to the screen.
Directors such as Chilean filmmaker Alejandro "El Topo" Jodorowsky
tried their hand at transformig the mystical, mythical novel, which
has sold more than 10 million copies and been translated into 14
languages, into a workable screenplay.  Jodorowsky's plans for a
12-hour film failed, and he lost his financing in 1975.

Producer Dino de Laurentiis purchased the rights to "Dune" three
years later.  De Laurentiis and his daughter Raffaella De
Laurentiis, who eventually co-produced the $40 million "Dune,"
promised Herbert they would remain true to the book.

They kept their word, according to Herbert, who noted that
"Hollywood is notorious for the cheap shot.  But when director
Ridley Scott mentioned that he wanted to introduce incest between
the hero and his mother to Dino, he was out."

Lynch was chosen on the basis of "The Elephant Man," which garnered
eight Oscar nominations.  Herbert admired the 1980 film for the way
the director "took you to Victorian England without focusing hard on
the environment, but on the characters," Herbert said, adding, "I
think he did the same with 'Dune.'

"It's a real departure from hardware science fiction films because
the focus is not on special effects but on ambience.  He keeps your
eye on the characters.  Even the textures have the right mood;
they're not the bright plastic, chrome and white jumpsuits you
usually see.  In the book, I was working on the idea of a feudal
society, so Lynch looked at Renaissance and rococo art for the
background, which suggests a feudal society to the audience."

Herbert is delighted with Lynch's flair for finding the appropriate
visual metaphor, but he is equally pleased with his thematic
treatment of the story.

"I know that the themes came out clearly because I hear people
coming out of the theaters talking about them.  It makes people
question exactly what I wanted.

"The main idea is an openness to change.  We have to be able to deal
with change because adaptability is the key to survival as a
species.  You have to adapt to new conditions or you are dead."

Herbert is often called a futurist, and terms like "future think"
are often applied to his writing, but Herbert is wary of being
considered a visionary.

"I do write future histories, which I think of as adventure fiction
or technological fiction, but I don't think I have to put on the
mantle of prescient futurist.  The number of things we can't predict
is astounding.  It is the surprises we have to be able to deal with.
When we get down to it, we are talking about technological changes
in society and how we cope with them.

"I'm interested in the things I read into history.  For example, I
think it's a dangerous misapprehension to think that absolute power
corrupts absolutely.  I think that power attracts the corruptible.
I also think that all bureaucracies become aristocracies.  It's
close to that now in our military, which is a dynasty where the
powerful pass power to their children.  My theories haven't changed
(since "Dune" was written 20 years ago).  In fact they have been
borne out by history."

The sixth in the "Dune" series, "Charterhouse: Dune," deals with
"the evolutionary thrust of a society that has come out of 'Dune.'
It's about a collision between two enormous forces, and if you want
to draw a comparison between America and Russia, be my guest."

Since Herbert acquired a word processor, he can turn our a book in
about six to eight months.  But "Dune" took six years of research
before he even began writing.  The idea for the novel began when
Herbert, then a reporter who worked newspaper night shifts so he
could write fiction during the day, was researching an article on
the ecology of sand dunes.  While flying over the desert in eastern
Oregon he began to think about a desert planet.

Herbert went to live in a desert in New Mexico and began reading
about desert ecology.  Soon he was immersed in research dealing with
comparative religion, linguistics, political science and the
psychology of mass movements.

It all went into the writing of "Dune," and now, Herbert thinks it's
all up there on the screen.

"We wanted to challenge the viewer," Herbert said.  "It's probable
that people who haven't read the book will have to go back and see
the movie again, or go back and read the book.  In any event, you
have to pay attention to the movie.  Very close attention."

Kirk Webb

..!seismo!hao!nbires!kwebb (USENET)
NBI, Inc. Boulder, CO

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jan 85 1057-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 85 1057-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:

        Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Chandler & Duane (3 msgs) &
                Eddings & Schmitz (3 msgs) & Sucharitkul (4 msgs),
        Films - Worst SF Movie (2 msgs) & Bladerunner & A Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 85 21:27:25 EST
From: Jon <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: So Long, and here's my theories

SPOILER WARNING-The following contains material related to the
Douglas Adams book, So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish.  Those who
have not read the book may wish to skip this message.

>1) What is the Earth doing back in existence?

>2) Why don't Fenchurch's feet touch the ground?

>3) Why did Arthur, Fenchurch and Wonko the Sane receive gray
>crystal globes from the dolphins and why does Arthur's globe have
>only half of the inscription, "So Long, and Thanks ..."

>5) Is Marvin really dead?

Any ideas?

Well, here goes...

1) If you recall in the first book, those Hyper-Intelligent,
Pan-Dimensional Beings that otherwise resembled mice were having the
Earth Mark II made so they would know The Great Question (although
we know it supposedly isn't possible to know the answer as well).
Also, the mice must have known enough not to make another Arthur,
being that they knew he survived the destruction.

2) I think that this could be related to the mice.  They probably
knew that someone had the answer, but had no clue as to who it was.
By making Fenchurch float, perhaps she was flagged for easy
identification by the mice?

3)  Why, indeed?  See below.

5) I certainly hope not!  Throughout the series, Marvin has been my
favorite character.  I would hope that Adams doesn't have the heart
to break up a winning team.  What was he doing there, anyway?

Obviously, Adams has something more planned.  A recent entry into
the digest about an Adams interview suggested that he was taking
some time off, so I do not expect to see anything coming soon.  I'm
sure he has some ideas brewing on a back burner about the fifth book
of the trilogy, so I'll be waiting with my peril sensitive
sunglasses in the meantime.

JOn
arpa:RU-BLUE

------------------------------

From: ISM780!jeff@topaz
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 15 Jan 85 06:54:38 GMT

> About two years ago, NPR broadcast a series of radio shows
> that were based loosely on Douglas Adams' "Hitchhikers Guide
> to the Galaxy". I had recorded the entire set of broadcasts,
> but when we moved, we lost the box that contained my tapes!!

You'll probably hear this from elsewhere, but the radio shows were
the original medium for HHGttG.  The books (you should always read
the copyright page...) say something like "based on the BBC Radio
programmes originally broadcast on <dates>."  Since they are BBC
productions, the tapes are probably not available from NPR.

------------------------------

From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II)
Subject: Re: A. Bertram Chandler?
Date: 10 Jan 85 02:22:57 GMT

berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes:
>Last time I looked at LOCUS (several months ago), it seemed A.
>Bertram Chandler had suffered a stroke.  Anyone know for sure the
>state of his health (if any -- I hope he's not gone.)?

Unfortunately, Chandler died a few months ago.  If I remember right,
there's a book still coming, but I can't remember just now if it was
supposed to be SF or historical.

I personally let my LOCUS subscription lapse, since I've been
disappointed by the lack of coverage that Charlie Brown gives to
fandom.  S F CHRONICLE seems to cover the same ground better.  Also,
I got really tired of LOCUS's lousy book reviews.  Of course, if you
don't care about fandom, you could argue that LOCUS might serve you
better... it's true that LOCUS has been winning Hugo Awards, but
that's mostly because it has a bigger circulation.

Of course, if you wanted the *fan* news, you'd subscribe to my
gossip zine, UNCLE DICK'S, and not bother with all that
sf-professional stuff.

Dick Smith                              ..ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!shaddock@topaz (Mike Shaddock)
Subject: Re: Two Questions
Date: 11 Jan 85 14:57:04 GMT

corwin@ut-ngp.UUCP (Corwin, Lord of Amber) writes:
>In browsing the local bookstores yesterday, I came across a trade
>book by Diane Duane called _The Door into Shadow_.  The back says
>this is the second book in the _Tales of the Five_ which appears to
>be a five book set.  Anyway, it seems that the book(s) have
>everything: royal magic, Reaver Armies, Shadow, exiled princes,
>elementals, a warrior Queen, a Great Sword, dragons, the Old Man
>from Scene 23... you get the idea.  Question: Has anyone read Book
>One of this set?  How is it?  Anyone else seen this stuff?

The first book is called "The Door into Fire" and came out at least
four years ago.  I thought that it was quite good, particularly for
a first novel.  The world that she describes has one of the more
interesting moral/social structures that I've heard of.  I think the
"Tales of the Five" doesn't mean that there are five books, but that
there are five major characters (although I can only think of four
at the moment).

Mike Shaddock
{decvax,seismo}!mcnc!rti-sel!shaddock

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Barry Gold)
Subject: Re: Door Into Shadow
Date: 12 Jan 85 03:30:56 GMT

DOOR INTO SHADOW is the sequel to DOOR INTO FIRE, which was at least
as good.  Apparently it's going to eventually develop into a five
book series.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: uiucdcsb!mcdaniel@topaz
Subject: Re: Two Questions
Date: 14 Jan 85 06:43:00 GMT

I've read _The Door Into {Fire,Shadow}_, and I recommend them
highly.  Truly excellent and unique (and unique is hard to get in
fantasy nowadays!)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1985  14:05 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: sue@mit-grape-nehi (Susan Felshin)
Subject: Eddings' Belgariad

Pawn of Prophecy--A pawn is someone who gets moved around without
his control.  In this case, Belgarion.

Queen of Sorcery--A queen is a major piece, in this case refering to
Polgara.

Magician's Gambit--A gambit is a move where you deliberately
sacrifice a piece or position in order to make a future gain.  In
this case, Ctuchik's letting Belgarath et al close enough to kill
him on the assumption that they would bring Ce'Nedra with them.

Castle of Wizardry--Belgarath's tower?  This one isn't obvious.

Enchanter's End Game--Belgarath finishing it up.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 85 23:04:59 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Witches of Karres

I've read it!  A wonderful book (I believe it's been reprinted
recently, so everyone go out and buy it!) but, alas, I don't believe
there was ever a sequel.  The author of the book is James H.
Schmitz, who also wrote a series of books about one Telzey Amberdon,
a telepath.  I read just the beginning of the first book (not that
it was bad, I just never got to finish it), _The_Universe_
_Against_Her_, and found it quite good, though the style was more
serious and altogether quite different from _Witches_.  If anyone
out there wants more detailed information, ask me and I can consult
my friend who has all/most of his books.
                                        --Peter Alfke
                                                "Gabba Gabba Hey!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 Jan 85 00:05:47-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: "Witches of Karres"

WoK was written by James Schmitz, also well-known for his Trigger
Argee and Telzey Amberdon stories.  Unfortunately Mr. Schmitz is now
dead and, as far as I know, he never wrote a sequel to WoK (but boy,
I wish I was wrong about the sequel; I really would have liked to
have seen one, WoK being one of my all-time favorite novels).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 10:45:42 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: "The Witches of Karres"

     "The Witches of Karres" was written by James H(enry) Schmitz.
Originally, it was a novella in 'Analog', and was expanded to novel
length in 1966, when it was published by Ace (possibly in the series
edited by Terry Carr?).  JHS is better known for the series of
stories about Telzey Amberdon, the young female telepath with an
affinity for animals who is recruited by the Psychology Service of
the "Overgovernment" as an agent; this series included "The Universe
Against Her", "The Lion Game", "The Telzey Toy" (short stories), and
a few yet-uncollected shorts.  Most, if not all, of these were
originally published in 'Analog.'  Set in the same universe are his
stories of another agent, Trigger Argee.  One thing which makes
Schmitz' work extremely interesting is the fact that he's writing
full-blown "space opera" -- a genre which tends to be rather hostile
to women -- with female protagonists who are remarkably liberated
and free of sexual role-playing cliches; this is doubly surprising,
given that the books were written in the early sixties, and
published in 'Analog.'
     --Dave Axler

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks to the following people who sent in the
same or similar information:

Dick Grantges  (hound!rfg)
Richard Draves (draves@harvard)
Ray Chen (princeton!tilt!chenr)
Douglas Walker (unc!walker@topaz)
jmellby (jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay)
Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] (quint@RU-BLUE)
Gail B. Hanrahan (calmasd!gail@topaz)
Bryan M. Kramer (utai!kramer@topaz)
David L. Markowitz (...!ucbvax!{ucivax,trwrb}!csuf!dav)
Cheryl Nemeth (calmasd!cjn@topaz)
Ned Danieley (duke!ndd@topaz)
]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 10:37:00 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Sucharitkul

  Somtow Sucharitkul's nationality is Thai.  His parents are currently
the Thai ambassadors to Italy; Somtow tells me that every time they're
about to be appointed to a similar job in the States, the government
changes and they end up on the wrong side.  He's a very funny and
enjoyable person, who not only writes sf, but also commentary (e.g.,
his long-running column in "Fantasy Newsletter").  He's
Oxbridge-educated in both classics and music, and does, indeed, 
compose modern classical material (some of which is the music referred
to in his books).  He also ghost-writes classical music for wealthy
"patrons of the arts" who must remain nameless.  The final book in the
'Inquestor' series was just announced in the new issue of Locus; it
will be in hardback from a limited-edition house, and will have both a
regular and a limited printing (150 copies on the latter).

------------------------------

From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth)
Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul
Date: 12 Jan 85 02:49:24 GMT

And speaking of Somtow, I recall someone asking about a short story
last fall which they had the plot to and wanted to know the title
and author.  The story involved the Earth being forced into a time
loop which made everyone repeat the same day over and over again as
a study project for a sort of inter-galactic elementary school.  The
only reprieve the people on Earth get is two free hours every day
early in the morning.  Talk about being stuck in a rut...  Well,
anyway, in case that someone is still wondering, I just recalled
those details; it's: "Absent Thee from Felicity Awhile..." by, of
course (ah, that's the connection!), Somtow Sucharitkul.  Hope my
answer didn't come too late!

Jeff Lewis
{decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz
Subject: Re: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul
Date: 11 Jan 85 02:49:00 GMT

More on Sucharitkul: I believe he is Thai in origin. He does
articles for what used to be called *Fantasy Newsletter* but is now
something like *Fantasy and Science Fiction Book Review*, a very
good review magazine published by the English department of one of
the Florida universities. I read the first installment of *The
Aquiliad* in *Analog(?)* and wasn't very impressed, but I've heard
good things about *Mallworld* and plan to start *Vampire Junction*
soon (I love the cover painting). The "S. P. Somtow" is designed to
sell more books, since the general public, unlike(?) science fiction
readers, apparently won't buy a book by someone whose name they
can't pronounce. Saw him wandering through Philadelphia's bid party
at LACon in some sort of Eastern garb, and he seemed a decent sort.

                                        Wombat
                "I am not, nor have I ever been, jan howard finder"
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 85 17:32:00 EST
From: <theo@ari-hq1>
Subject: SOMTOW SUCHARITKUL

I think he still lives in Alexandria, VA.  He's of Thai origin.  Has
lived in Japan for a short while.  Was a composer while in Bangkok.
He's joked that his contemporary style of composition led to his
departure from that city.  (Apparently the ministry of culture
wasn't stoked about Somtow's music.)

well, their loss is our gain.

the one and only!

------------------------------

From: ll1!cej@topaz (One of the Jones Boys)
Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you remember ..."
Date: 8 Jan 85 14:44:44 GMT

> Does anyone remember these two movies :
>
> 2) Some astronauts are orbiting Mars and some previous
> civilization on Mars brings them down to fix some sort of machine
> that fools around with time.  The Martians' faces were in pillars.

        It was called "The Wizard of Mars", and had to be the WORST
s-f movie ever made, bar none.  Those pillars were old chambers that
all the Martians are in.  The Marians had stopped time (locally), so
they could live forever.  They didn't like it.  The "heros" couldn't
leave till they fixed the machine that "was" time.  (They never
explain, but if the machine is broke, time is stopped.  Fix the
machine, and time runs again.  It seems the Martians built the
machine, then broke it to stop time!!)

        Why did I watch the worst s-f movie of all time?  How else
would I know how bad it was?

        Never lick a gift               Chuck Jones
          horse in the mouth.           ...mgnetp!ll1!cej

------------------------------

From: inmet!bloom@topaz
Subject: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made
Date: 15 Jan 85 08:13:01 GMT

>  It was called "The Wizard of Mars", and had to be the WORST
>  s-f movie ever made, bar none.

And here all along I'd been thinking that the Worst S-F Movie Ever
Made was "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" --- or does that not
even make it into the realm of s-f?

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Movie/book combinations - Bladerunner
Date: 11 Jan 85 19:06:23 GMT

Why do I never get tired of seeing this movie over, and over, and
over, and ov....?  It doesn't even closely parallel the book.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts."  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jan 85 09:07:49 PST
From: Henry Sampson <sampson@AEROSPACE>
Subject: Rare Sci fi Movie

I am trying to locate a print of a rare sci fi movie made in l940
entitled SON OF INGAGI featuring an all-black cast and written by
Spencer Williams (Andy of the Amos and Andy TV show).

Henry Sampson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Jan 85 1134-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jan 85 1134-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Jan 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:

           Books - Bellairs (2 msgs) & Goulart & Leiber &
                   Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny (6 msgs),
           Television - Starlost (4 msgs) & Space: 1999 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gitpyr!dts@topaz (Danny Sharpe)
Subject: Re: John Bellairs
Date: 11 Jan 85 15:31:03 GMT

rmorgan@tikal.UUCP writes:
>Several years ago I ran across a surprising little book called
>_The_Face_in_the_Frost_, by John Bellairs.  Has anyone seen, know
>of, or better, read any other books by the same author?

I enjoyed _The_Face_in_the_Frost_ so much that when I found a copy
of _The_Pedant_and_the_Shuffly_ in a used book store I bought it
without question.

It's like a road runner cartoon in print. A tad lacking in plot,
which made it get kind of tiresome, but it has some neat word play.

-- Either Argle-Bargle IV or someone else. --

Danny Sharpe
School of ICS
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe@rand-unix>
Date: 14 Jan 85 14:15:08 PST (Mon)
Subject: John Bellairs' books

You left out "The Treasure of Alphaeus Winterbottom" which is a
prequel to "The Dark Secret of Weatherend"; I suspect that these two
comprise the first books of the other trilogy you mention, although
I haven't seen anything indicating that another book would be out
dealing with the same characters as the Winterbottom/Weatherend
books.

All three series are children's books--try the local children's book
store or library section (I have a standing agreement with the
children's librarian at Santa Monica to give me any new Bellairs as
soon as it clears new book processing).

If you started with the "Face in the Frost", though, be prepared to
be less impressed with the children's books.  They lack the intense
whackiness of "Face", and also its terror.  But they have a strong
sense of small town nostalgia that reminds me of Bradbury's
"Something Wicked This Way Comes" and August Derleth's children's
novels; I like them.

As for "St. Fidgeta" and "The Pedant...", my friends have found
copies at out-of-the-way Catholic books stores.

christe@rand-unix

------------------------------

From: smu!mcdonald@topaz
Subject: Re: addition to SF-LOVERS...ARPA
Date: 11 Jan 85 04:27:00 GMT

Yes.  Read Ron Goulart.  He is hilarious (if sometimes a bit darkly
so).  I don't mean that it's heavy -- far from it; but a great deal
of the humor derives from things falling apart.  Malfunctioning
robot secret agents.  Hack romance writers who moonlight for the
post-Holocaust CIA.  Editors who have been transformed into apes.
Just pick one at random.
                                                        McD

------------------------------

From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz (sonntag)
Subject: Someone has apparently pirated "Conjure Wife" by Fritz Leiber
Date: 14 Jan 85 22:01:07 GMT

    While vegetating early one Saturday afternoon, I found on the
tube a movie which I think they had titled: "Witches Brew".  It was
the second movie I've seen based on Fritz Leiber's "Conjure Wife".
I checked out the credits at the end of the movie thoroughly, and
while they listed a couple of 'writers', they gave Fritz absolutely
no credit.  How can they get away with this?
    In case some of you haven't seen this book (WARNING:
SEMI-SPOILER APPROACHING!!), it's about an anthropology professor
who accidently discovers something which ALL women have been keeping
secret from men since the dawn of time: they're all witches.  Once
you've gotten over accepting this improbable premise (I was trained
in this at an early age.), it's a good read, about as good as most
of Fritz's stuff.

-- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
  "Aye, Captain, and at warp 11 we're going nowhere mighty fast!"

------------------------------

From: smu!mcdonald@topaz
Subject: Wolfe
Date: 11 Jan 85 04:15:00 GMT

Wolfe's newest book is _Live_Free_Live_.  It was advertised
incorrectly as _Love_Free_Love_.  All I really know about it is that
the title comes from a classified ad offering free rent and that
every time he explains what it's about he says something completely
different.

It sounds excellent but I'm going to have to wait for the paperback.

                                        McD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 10:37:00 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Wolfe

  The new Gene Wolfe book is titled "Free Live Free."  It, too, is a 
limited edition (750 copies, illustrated ((profusely)), $45.00, around
600 pp.) from Mark Ziesing, up in Willimantic, CT.  According to the
Locus reviewer, it's a lot closer to mainstream fiction than most of
Wolfe's works, but is still an excellent book.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!shaddock@topaz (Mike Shaddock)
Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?
Date: 11 Jan 85 14:16:32 GMT

kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer) writes:
>I assume that Zelazny first wrote "The Changing Land" and then
>decided that Dilvish was an interesting enough character that he
>wrote "Dilvish, the Damned" (which I haven't read yet).  Does
>anyone know if the same thing (chronology in story is the opposite
>of publication order) happens with "To Die in Italbar" and "Isle of
>the Dead"?  (Actually, it's not even clear to me which of those 2
>stories is supposed to happen first.)

As I understand it, the stories in "Dilvish, the Damned" appeared in
various magazines during the 60's and 70's.  Zelazny wrote "The
Changing Land" as a finale, and apparently decided to publish an
anthology of all of the other Dilvish stories when "The Changing
Land" did reasonably well.

On a different track, does anybody know if Zelazny is going to write
any more Amber novels?  I heard a rumor on the net about a year ago
that he had contracted to write 3 more and that the first would be
out in October, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mike Shaddock
{decvax,seismo}!mcnc!rti-sel!shaddock

------------------------------

Date: Sat 12 Jan 85 14:42:51-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #16

As a devoted Zelazny fan I must reply to recent comments about
Dilvish.

First, DILVISH THE DAMNED is a collection of pre-CHANGING LAND
stories.

I don't see why an author has to give you a complete glossary and
gazetteer to a fictional universe. As long as he knows what is
happening, according to a thesis by Tolkien, the world he is
describing will seem real enough. (I don't recall the term Tolkien
used to describe the flavor of realism got by placing a story in a
well-thought-out setting--do any of you?). Everyone sneers at
stories where the main character encounters an amnesiac who has to
have the world explained to him; perhaps many readers are too used
to such ploys. I for one did not think that the CHANGING LAND was
insufficiently described, though I too would like to see more
informaton about the world, perhaps in more stories or novels.  I
don't claim that the Dilvish stories are great or enduring, but I
like them, and I think Zelazny knows more about his world than he is
letting on.

For example, it is fairly clear that Steven Brust knows a hell of a
lot more about his JHEREG world than is given in JHEREG and YENDI.
In contrast, it didn't seem to me that Sheri Tepper knew all that
much about her world that wasn't put in print in her recent trilogy.

I don't see how anyone can compare Dilvish unfavorably to Elric as a
character. Face it, Elric was an idiot; his "tragic flaw" was so
immense as to put Hamlet's to shame. At least Dilvish has a fairly
good idea what he is doing, where Elric is being dragged around by
his sword into killing everyone he meets and forgiving his deadly
enemies every chance he gets.

Merely because you want to know more about a world than is given in
a given story is no grounds for condemning it--any good author will
leave room for expansion. It may be that Zelazny has here fallen
prey to the insidious trap of not making each book able to stand on
its own, but I don't think so.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 Jan 85 12:05:42-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re:  _Changing Land_ and _Dilvish, the Damned_

Doesn't anyone but me ever read the back of the title page, to see
when various parts of books were published?  I don't have DtD in
front of me at the moment, but as I recall, those short stories were
written over a span of a decade or so, starting in the early to
middle 60s.
                                                Rich Alderson

------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 Jan 85 18:08:52-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Cryptic Zelazney

For an explanation of why he always leaves off explicit explanation
of so many of the details, see the introduction in _The_Last_Defender_
_of_Camelot (which is one of his better collections, if you haven't
read it).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1985  14:08 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer)
Subject: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?

Actually, "Dilvish, The Damned" is a collection of Dilvish stories
that Zelazny had written over several years.  The individual stories
were mostly (or perhaps all) published before "Changing Land".

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1985  13:48 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: mhuxt!js2j@topaz (sonntag)
Subject: Where has Zelazney gone?

Zelazny is supposedly writing some more Amber books (3 I think).

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!rick@topaz (the absurdist)
Subject: Re: STAR-LOST
Date: 13 Jan 85 01:57:54 GMT

derek@uwvax.UUCP (Derek Zahn) writes:
>Is this that same television show that Harlan Ellison was talked
>into writing for in Canada...

        Yes.

>If so, I would like to see some of it, for he gives a rather
>humorous account of the fiasco as part his book, "Stalking the
>Nightmare," or something like that.
        The show is too bad even to be worth seeing for camp value.
The production of the TV show (as opposed to the subject of the TV
show) has also been satirized by Ben Bova, in "The StarCrossed."
After reading it, one can only assume that Bova didn't get sued for
libel by those involved because of the fear that a court would rule
that they were indeed as idiotic as they are portrayed in the novel.

-- "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean --
neither more nor less" -- Humpty Dumpty, the noted linguist

Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 85 13:24:37 EST
From: Ed <Blanchett@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Starlost series.

Hmmm...
I vaguely recall the Starlost series around here (wasn't it on
Sunday nights on NBC?) Funny that it should come up now - if I
remember, Keir Dullea was one of the main characters (what, with
2001/2010 and all...)

-Ed Blanchett
"My God, it's full of stars!!!"

------------------------------

From: watrose!vljohnson@topaz (Lee Johnson)
Subject: Re: STAR-LOST
Date: 12 Jan 85 04:43:27 GMT

I liked "The Starlost" too.  As I recall, the original story upon
which it was based, "Phoenix Without Ashes", was written by Harlan
Ellison.  I vaguely remember reading that Ellison was *not* happy
about the way the TV production was carried off--so much so that he
withdrew his name from the credits and substituted the pseudonym
"Cordwainer Bird".

I think the show was a Canadian production (Glen-Warren
Productions).  Robin Ward, who played Garth, could more recently be
seen in various commercials.  As for Keir Dullea (Devon), you can
see him in 2010.  I have no idea what happened to the actress who
played Rachael.

Regards,
Lee Johnson

------------------------------

From: wateng!padpowell@topaz (PAD Powell)
Subject: Re: STAR-LOST
Date: 14 Jan 85 14:42:46 GMT

rick@uwmacc.UUCP (Rick Keir) writes:
>       The show is too bad even to be worth seeing for camp value.
>The production of the TV show (as opposed to the subject of the TV
>show) has also been satirized by Ben Bova, in "The StarCrossed."
>After reading it, one can only assume that Bova didn't get sued for
>libel by those involved because of the fear that a court would rule
>that they were indeed as idiotic as they are portrayed in the
>novel.

I have been involved with CBC, and other production companies, and
when I read the book, I just about died laughing.  Even the CBC
exec's who read the book enjoyed it.  I think even Harlan ("The
Teeth That Talk, The Jaws That Froth") Ellison enjoyed it.

At least we can laugh at ourselves...

Patrick ("Artistic Merit?  Didn't he used to work for Children's
        Television Workshop?") Powell

------------------------------

From: voder!kevin@topaz (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 12 Jan 85 01:44:55 GMT

> Space: 1999 wasn't really that bad. I actually enjoyed some of the
> programs.
> Cheryl Nemeth

   No it wasn't, of course there was nothing else on at the time.
Unfortunately, what I thought was the best of all their episodes was
the one I think was entitled 'War Games' in which Moonbase Alpha
gets attacked by what appears to be an earth attack fleet and gets
totally wiped out.  They then wake up and find it's all a dream
being caused by the planet they're approaching.  Loads of special
effects.
   The only thing I really had a hard time with, other than the fact
the moon must have been traveling at hyper-speed or falling into
space warps right and left) was the alien women character in the
second season who could change her shape into anything.  I can't
remember her name (something like Myra) but she was played by
Catherine Schnell.  I just cannot accept that a 110-120 pound person
can change into a 200lb panther and then into an insect!  Something
about conservation of mass and energy.  If mass and energy are truly
the same then a 300lb monster would have no energy left and a tiny
fly would have so much it probably couldn't contain it.
   I did like the designs of the Eagle Transporters and the Hawk
attack ships, I thought they looked quite realistic and the concept
of the cargo modules made sense, although you probably had to be
careful about fancy maneuvers if you weren't carrying a cargo
section as it must have strengthened the entire framework.

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin

"It's sort of a threat, you see.  I've never been very good at them
  myself but I'm told they can be very effective."

------------------------------

From: alice!alb@topaz (Adam L. Buchsbaum)
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 13 Jan 85 16:21:57 GMT

The alien woman you refer to was named ''Mia'' (maybe it was spelled
Mya, I dunno, but it was pronounced ''Mie-ya'').  I seem to recall
an episode in the second season, when they made a brief reference to
picking her up from some doomed planet (maybe it was a doomed
society; I remember her father (i.e. alien father) was in it and
wasn't such a good guy), in which they said her mass was conserved
during all transformation; thus, if she became an insect, she was a
VERY dense one, and if a panther, a very undense (undense?) one.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Jan 85 1008-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 85 1008-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:

  Films - Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (2 msgs) & The Wizard of Mars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (very long)
Date: 13 Jan 85 21:14:28 GMT

The LA Times Calendar section for this Sunday features their annual
listing of upcoming films.  They list ~250 films to be released in
the next year.  I have here culled out those that, from the brief
descriptions, appear to be fantasy/SF films.  In a few case, I have
included my own comments, in brackets.  The releasing studio is in
parenthesis at the end of the blurb.  I have included horror films
which have fantasy/sf elements.

Winter

"The Company of Wolves"
        Angela Lansbury and David Warner are featured in this adult
adaptation of "Little Red Riding Hood".  [This was one of the best
films I saw at Filmex, the LA film festival, over the summer.  Very
good.]  (Cannon)

"Creator"
        Peter O'Toole is Harry Wolper, an eccentric Nobel Laureate
biologist preoccupied with creating a copy of his wife, who died 30
years ago.  Mariel Hemingway and Vincent Spano help him discover
that life is in the present, not the past.  Directed by Ivan
Passer.(Universal)

"Perils of Gwendolline"
        Fantasy adventure about a colorful heroine and a reluctant
hero.  Stars Tawny Kitane. (Goldwyn) [Sounds cheap, but Goldwyn
usually only releases prestige films (we're not talking MGM here,
but a small producing company), so it might be OK.]

"The School Spirit"
        A comedy concerning a ghost-like jock who hovers around a
high school campus. (Almi)

"Superstition"
        An abandoned mansion is the site of unearthly terror. (Almi)

"Titan Find"
        Klaus Kinski leads a team of astronauts who inadvertantly
unleash a deadly alien force in the form of a horrifying 200,000
year old creature on Titan, Saturn's largest moon.  [Sounds vaguely
familiar, doesn't it?]

Spring

"The Adventure of Hercules"
        Hercules (Lou Ferrigno) muscles his way into a war between
the gods to save Earth from certain destruction.  [Considering the
last Hercules picture with Ferrigno, this will probably be a real
dog.] (Cannon)

"Baby"
        William Katt, Sean Young, and Patrick McGoohan star in an
adventure saga of a young couple who discover a family of dinosaurs
while on an expedition in Africa.  Directed by B.W.L. Norton.  [No,
I never heard of him or her either.  Any bets that McGoohan plays
either a). a kindly or not so kindly elder scientist, or b). a big
game hunter?]  (Disney)

"B.C. Rock"
        Animated feature set in prehistoric times with music by Hall
and Oates, Leo Sayer, and Rick Wakeman [Perhaps polishing up bits
and pieces of his "Journey to the Center of the Earth".]  (Almi)
[Anyone know who these Almi guys are?  Sounds Italian, and so does
their release schedule.]

"Brazil"
        Monty Python's Terry Gilliam directs this "comedic
nightmare" about a bureaucratic state where, among other concerns, a
character named Tuttle (Robert De Niro) has his freedom saved
because a beetle falls into a computer.  Also stars Python cohort
Michael Palin and Jonathen Pryce.  [The latter is the real star.  De
Niro's part is apparently little more than a cameo.  Pryce, who is
very up and coming in the world of British theater/film/television,
is best known to American audiences as Mr. Dark in "Something Wicked
This Way Comes".]  (Universal)

"Defcon 4"
        Three astronauts return to a world ravaged by nuclear war
and must fend off crazed survivors as they confront a new and
terrifying reality.  (New World) [Which means it will be cheap, but
not necessarily bad.]

"Exterminators of the Year 3000"
        Action-adventure about the battle between a "Road Warrior"
type hero and nuclear mutants. (New Line)

"Ladyhawke"
        Rutger Hauer, Matthew Broderick, and Michell Pfeiffer are
featured in Richard Donner's exploration of the magical side of the
Dark Ages.  [The coming attractions look good.]  (Warner Bros.)

"The Last Dragon"
        Music, dance, and martial arts mix it up in this Motown
production of an urban fairy tale set in New York City. [Maybe not a
fantasy film.]  (Tri-Star)

"The Lift"
        It's best to use the stairs in this Dutch-made horror film
about an elevator gone awry.  (Island Alive) [Which doesn't usually
release cheap schlock]

"The Noah's Ark Principle"
        A scientist in an orbitting U.S. weather station is ordered
by the government to divert attention from American soldiers trapped
fighting a war in the Middle East.  [By broadcasting Arabic erotica
instead of weather forecasts, perhaps?]  (MGM/UA)

"Primal Urge"
        When an anthropology student is transported back in time
25,000 years, he dinds that prehistoric man is only half as
interesting as prehistoric woman.  (Crown)

"When the Rain Begins to Fall"
        The multifaceted Pia Zadora stars in a spoof of beach
movies, science fiction and rock 'n' roll where six inch aliens grow
to full height after being removed from refrigeration.  Originally
titled "Voyage of the Rock Aliens".  Directed by James Fargo.

"Yellow Hair and the Fortress of Gold"
        A female Indian Jones type (Laurene Landon) sets off to find
an ancient Mayan fortune.  (Crown)

"Zombie Island Massacre"
        It's no quiet holiday when jet-set tourists discover a
voodoo ceremony on an island paradise.  Rita Jenrette (ex-wife of
ex-Congressman John Genrette) heads the cast.  [Sleazy to the max,
no doubt.]  (Troma)

Early Summer

"Back to the Future"
        Steven Speilberg produces the story of a teenager who
travels in time.  Directed by Robert Zemeckis ("Romancing the
Stone"), starring Eric Stolz, Christopher LLoyd, Lea Thompson, and
Crispin Glover. (Universal)

"The Black Cauldron"
        Based on Lloyd Alexander's award winning series of books,
this epic (and costly: $25 million and 10 years in the making)
Disney animated production chronicles the struggle to gain
possession of a mysterious force capable of producing an army of
deathless warriors.  With an original score by Elmer Bernstein.
(Disney) (Erroneously reported in last week's Calendar as opening in
1986.)  [Word from those who have seen clips is very good indeed.
The animation is supposed to be superb.  Some hints of inappropriate
comic relief have snuck out.  The main villains are apparently scary
enough that Disney expects a PG rating, its first on an animated
film.]

"The Bride"
        The Police's Sting stars as Baron Henry von Frankenstein, a
brilliant scientist who creates a beautiful female bride
("Flashdance's" Jennifer Beals) for his well-known creature.  The
baron decides, however, to keep the girl for himself.  Directed by
Franc Roddam ("Quadrophenia").  (Columbia)

"Goonies"
        Steven Spielberg's production involves a group of kids who
find themselves on a comical and magical adventure.  With Ke Huy
Quan, last seen as Harrison Ford's sidekick in "Indian Jones and the
Temple of Doom".  Directed by Richard Donner.  (Warner Bros.)

"Life Force"
        The original title of this film, "Space Vampires", speaks
best for the story.  Stars "The Stunt Man's" Steve Railsback.
Directed by Tobe Hooper ("Poltergeist").  (Tri-Star)

"Nuke 'Em High"
        Toxic waste seeps into the water supply of a high school,
creating school daze, so to speak, and unleashing a monster on
campus.  Richard Haines ("Splatter University" directs.  (Troma)

"Red Sonja"
        Sonja is the female version of Conan the Barbarian.  Stars
Arnold Schwarzenegger (not playing Conan), Sandahl Bergman (another
"Conan" alumnus) and Brigette Nielson in the title role.  Directed
by Richard Fleischer ("Conan the Destroyer").  (MGM/UA)

"Return to Oz"
        Dorothy Gale (newcomer Fairuza Balk) revisits the enchanted
land of Oz to rescue the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Cowardly
Lion from the Nome King who has destroyed the Emerald City.  With
Nicol Williamson, Piper Laurie, and Jean Marsh.  Written and
directed by Walter Murch, with uncredited assistance from George
Lucas and Steven Speilberg.  (Disney)

"Starchaser: the Legend of Orin"
        An animated 3-D film about a good boy and his space-age
battles with an evil villain.  [Sounds Japanese] (Atlantic)

"Teen Wolf"
        A horror-spoof comedy about a popular high school boy who
suddenly finds out that he's a werewolf.  (Atlantic)

"Thunder Women"
        The year is 2890, and savage Amazons rule the post-
apocolyptic wastelands of Colorado.  Two men escape from their
female enslavers, and before you know it, there is equality between
the sexes.

Late Summer

"Cocoon"
        A group of elderly humans meet up with some young aliens who
have come to earth on a mission of mercy.  Stars Steve Guttenberg,
Maureen Stapleton, and Jessica Tandy.  Directed by Ron Howard.
(Fox)

"Explorers"
        Joe Dante ("Gremlins") directs the story of three
13-year-old boys who create a spacecraft from spare parts found in a
junkyard.  [Special makeup effects expert Rob Bottin is working on
this film, so it sounds like the kids will succeed in taking off.]
(Paramount)

"Fright Night"
        A 16-year-old boy, unable to persuade others that his
debonair neighbor is really a murderous vampire, turns to the host
of a TV horror show for help.  (Columbia)

"The Heavenly Kid"
        Eighteen years after being killed in a car accident, a
teen-ager comes back as an angel to give another teen-ager a sense
of self-worth.  (Orion)

"Legend"
        Director Ridley Scott's first film since "Blade Runner"
stars Tom Cruise as hermit Jack o' the Green.  The story follows the
mythical adventures of Jack and a host of goblins, faeries, elves,
pixies, leprechauns, and unicorns.  (Universal)

"My Science Project"
        A fantasy-adventure about a teen-ager whose desperate search
for something to turn in as his science project results in a
discovery so extraordinary that his entire high school campus
crashes through new frontiers of science into a new dimension that
no one ever knew existed.  (Disney) [Disney is going in very heavy
for fantasy and sf this year.]

"Road Warrior II"
        Mel Gibson is back for another go-round in the post-
apocolyptic future as Max finds a band of children living in a crack
in the Earth.  George Miller, who made the original, co-directs.
Tina Turner co-stars.  [I don't like the sound of this
"co-direction" business...] (Warner Bros.)

"The Stuff"
        The ice cream industry is in for a sudden thaw when "The
Stuff" becomes the food craze of the year.  But "The Stuff" turns
out to be shockingly worse for you than ice cream: it's an
all-consuming parasite.  (New World)

"Weird Science"
        A teen-aged version of the "Frankenstein" story, with a pair
of awakening computer wizards creating their own very luscious
monster - played by model Kelly Le Brock.  Directed by John Hughs
("Mr. Mom") and starring Anthony Michael Hall and Ilan
Michael-Smith.  [ A fairly blantant attempt to rip off "The Bride".]
(Universal)

"The Clan of the Cave Bear"
        Daryl Hannah stars in the film adaptation of Jean Auel's
best- selling book.  Hannah is Ayla, an orphaned Cro Magnon woman,
who collides with lesser Neanderthals.  Written by John Sayles
("Baby It's You"), directed by Michael Chapman ("All the Right
Moves").  (Warner Bros.)

"Free Spirit"
        Glenn Close, Mandy Patinkin and Ruth Gordon star in a story
of a movie flapper of the 1920s who returns from the dead and saves
a marriage in crisis.  (Orion)

"Return of the Living Dead"
        Not to be confused with George Romero's opuses.  Corpses
come to life to seek the brains of living humans in this campy
horror film.  With Clu Gulager.  Screenwriter Dan O'Bannon ("Alien")
makes his directorial debut.  (Orion)

Christmas

"Enemy Mine"
        "Das Boot's" Wolfgang Petersen directs this tale of two
enemy space pilots - one human (Dennis Quaid), the other not (Lou
Gosset, Jr.)- as they fight and learn to respect each other in a
distant galaxy.  (Fox)

"Santa Claus - The Movie"
        Santa (David Huddleston) must save his activist elf (Dudley
Moore) from a greedy toy tycoon (John Lithgow) in this modern day
adventure.  Jeannot Szwarc directs this reported $50 million venture
by "Superman's" Ilya and Alexander Salkind, making it the most
expensive film of 1985 - so far.  [My bet is that Santa saves Moore
from Lithgow, but that no one can save the movie from Szwarc.  $50
million down the tubes, and I'm glad I'm not one of the Salkind's
investors on this one.]  (Tri-Star)

No Release Date announced

"Frog Dreaming"
        "E.T.'s" Henry Thomas stars in a mystery adventure about a
boy whose father is killed in Vietnam.  [Mark Leeper says that
Variety listed this as a fantasy film.]

"Radioactive Dreams"
        Two young men emerge from a bomb shelter after spending 20
years reading pulp novels, then dodge disco and surfer mutants as
they search for the keys necessary to launch the last MX missile.
[Sound like real fun guys.]

Very tentative stuff

"The Navigator"
        directed by John Avildsen ("The Karate Kid"), about a
15-year-old Rip Van Winkle who tries to pilot a flying saucer back
in time.  (Disney)

"Poltergeist II"
        Starring JoBeth Williams with special effects by Richard
Edlund ("2010").  (MGM/UA)

"Star Trek IV"  (Paramount)

"Silver Bullet" From a Stephen King story. (Paramount)

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (very long)
Date: 15 Jan 85 20:21:02 GMT

reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes:
>"Perils of Gwendolline"
>       Fantasy adventure about a colorful heroine and a reluctant
>hero.  Stars Tawny Kitane. (Goldwyn) [Sounds cheap, but Goldwyn
>usually only releases prestige films (we're not talking MGM here,
>but a small producing company), so it might be OK.]

I wonder if this is related to the rather kinky 'comic strip' Perils
of Gwendoline, in which Gwendoline seems to spend most of her time
being tied up in weird restraints while wearing scanty garments?

>"The Black Cauldron"
>Some hints of inappropriate comic relief have snuck out.

Why inappropriate?  The book is full of comic relief.  It's one of
the things that makes it so good!  I recommend it (and the others in
the series) to any lover of fine fantasy.

"The universe is not user-friendly." -- Kelvin Throop

Berry Kercheval    Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 85 13:53:55 EST
From: Jon <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Movie inquiry reply

>2) Some astronauts are orbiting Mars and some previous civilization
>   on Mars brings them down to fix some sort of machine that fools
>   around with time.  The Martians' faces were in pillars.

The movie you are thinking of is The Wizard of Mars.  I don't know
any particulars about the actual production, but I do remember that
the astronauts were indeed brought down by the Martians.  The
Martians were more or less in purgatory, being that they had
tinkered with time.  The characters -get this- found the Martians by
following a yellow brick road.  Really.  When they got there, I
remember the people finding a clock with a pendulum stuck in one
position.  After telepathically conversing with one of the Martians
in suspension, they found a crystal that they placed somewhere in
the clock mechanism, and the pendulum (read clock) started working,
and natural decay caused the place to fall into ruin.  The story
ends up with the astronauts back in orbit before the whole thing
happened, but they remember it all.  Not bad for a cheesy film.

JOn
arpa:trudel@ru-blue

"obviously, this guy has a lot of free(?) time on his hands"

ps-when are we going to see reviews of those classics that are in
the theatres for only a week?  Recent ones include Ice Pirates,
Metalstorm (in 3-d no less), and Conquest.  Someone must go to these
films, because I'm not the only one there...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 85 1030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:

      Books - Adams & Limited Editions & Female Protaganists &
              Story Request & Story Request Answered,
      Films - The Dark Cauldron (2 msgs) & Movie Request &
              Worst SF Movie Made (4 msgs) & Star Trek,
      Miscellaneous - Interactive Fiction & Boskonians on the Net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jan 1985  11:23 EST
From: ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide/Plot theories

Some people may find what follows a spoiler.  Others may find it
incomprehensible.

I don't have any of the books right here, but I seem to remember
that the mice decided to abort the Earth Mark II ("Thank you,
Slartibartfast, that will be all...") when they discovered Arthur
was alive.  It might be the dolphins who are behind the Earth's
continued existence ("The Committee to Save the Humans" or some
such, wasn't it?).

The inscribed crystal bowl: Arthur has half of the entire
inscription, Fenchurch the other half.  Wonko has the complete text.
There is no doubt some connection here, besides the one between
Fenchurch and Arthur.

The radio series (which, by the way, WGBH-Boston will be
rebroadcasting shortly) is quite close to the books in some ways; it
is close to the records in some ways; it is unique in some ways (I
didn't see the TV adaptation.)  Lintilla and the Frog Star didn't
appear in the books; Krikkit and the flying cocktail party didn't
turn up on the radio shows.

Lastly: One thing that struck me as I listened to a couple of my
tapes of the radio...Adams continually hints that Arthur has no more
idea of what is in store for him than a tea-leaf has of the history
of the East India Company (paraphrasing).  What is in store for him?
I think he becomes the "later, wilier editor" of the Guide referred
to several times...

A. M.
eliz
Chicago: N.  The foul-smelling wind that precedes a subway train.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 17 Jan 85 11:14:44-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: New Limited Editions

On Collecting Limited Edition Speciality Publisher Books.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because there is no good answer
to the question "Why do publishers print and people buy books that
cost $50 to $100 when the same words could be printed in a three
dollar paperback".  This question is very similar to "Why do people
pay one hundred dollars a bottle for wine when a three dollar bottle
will get you just as drunk," or "why do people pay over $100,000 for
a Rolls Royce", or " why do people pay over $10,000 for a wrist
watch".

The oldest collectable publisher still around is
Arkham House, Inc.
PO Box 546
Sauk City, WI  53583
They publish well made hardcover books, primarily horror. The press
started in 1939 to publish Lovecraft in hardcover, five of the books
are continuously reprinted and always available.  No recent signed
and numbered editions.  Their latest book was `Who Made Stevie
Crye?'  by Michael Bishop $15.95, about a demon possessed daisy
wheel typewriter.

Donald M. Grant, Publisher, Inc.
West Kingston, RI 02892
Is most famous for their special edition of the `Talisman' by King
and Straub, $120 signed.  This was two volumes in slipcase, with
color illustrations from a number of artists.  Most of their books
are $15 to $50, signed by both author and artist.  Examples are
`Daughter of Regals' $50.  and `The Adventures of Samurai Cat'
$50.00 and $20.00

Cheap Street
Route 2, Box 293
New Castle, Virginia 24127
does very beautiful books on handmade paper, printed by hand on hand
set type.  The books are very small, about 70 to 80 pages.  There
are two series, both available to subscribers.  Subscribers must buy
every book or drop out.  The Publisher's Edition is usually hand
bound in quarter Niger goat leather with a slip case at about $190
non subscriber, $150 for subscriber.  The Collector's Edition is
cloth and sometimes a slipcase for $70 non, $57 subscriber.  Their
most recent book was `Were-Wrath' by Andre Norton.  Coming are a new
Thomas Disch, Gregory Benford, and Anne McCaffrey.  The books are
illustrated with line art.

Underwood-Miller
651 Chestnut Street
Columbia, PA  17512
does both signed and numbered first editions of trade books, and
hardcover reprints of famous writers' books, primarily Jack Vance.
Most of the reprints are first hardcover.  Prices range from $35.00
to $60.00 for the signed and numbered books to $13.95 to $15.95 for
unsigned editions.  In their new catalog is `The Green Pearl'
(Lyonesse II) by Jack Vance, signed at $60.00, `Sailing to
Byzantium' by Robert Silverberg $35.00 signed, $12.95.  `The Blue
Rose' by Peter Straub signed $35.00.  Three reprinted gothics by
Anne McCaffrey $25.00 each signed, $13.95, and `Moreta:' $35.00
signed.  They have over 50 titles still available, primarily
unsigned.

Phantasia Press
13101 Lincoln St.
Huntington Woods, MI 48070
does mostly first editions, either signed hardcover before a regular
hardcover trade, or both signed and trade hardcover for a regular
paperback.  They sometimes do hardcover reprints.  They did signed
first editions of `2010', `Robots of Dawn', `Gods of Riverworld',
`Dream Park', `Oath of Fealty', and `Firestarter'.  Prices are
$35.00 to $60.00.  Their last two books were in both signed and
trade editions, `Moment of the Magician' (Spellsinger 4) by Alan
Dean Foster $40.00 and $17.00 and `Chanur's Venture' by C. J.
Cherryh $40.00 and $17.00 The signed editions come in slipcases.
All books have new artwork for the dust jackets by such as Whelan,
Rowena, etc.

There are other small presses, and more pop up all the time, such as
Philtrum Press with their beautiful `The Eyes of the Dragon' by King
($120.00).  The book is 13 inches by 8 inches with wonderful woodcut
like illustrations by Kenneth R. Linkhauser.

General Notes:
1. Subscribe to Locus to get announcements of new small press books.
2. If you want a signed and limited edition of a book, send your
money or send for information  IMMEDIATELY.  The books frequently
sell out very quickly.
3.   Most of the publishers have catalogs or mailing list.

Sorry this is so long, but it is still rather incomplete.

Randy Neff     NEFF@SU-SIERRA
`A good book should feel good!'

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 15 Jan 1985 11:18:34-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: female protaganists

Try Janet Morris' books on Estri's adventures. The first book in the
series is "High Couch of Silistra". I believe there are four books
in the series. These aren't like her other books, at least the first
two aren't. (Towards the end of the third book she really gets into
the "god" wars and things get a little out of hand.) Estri is the
main character throughout the books (and a heroin, I might add). (As
you probably noticed, I'm sort of partial to Estri.)

For those that absolutely cannot stand fantasy, I wouldn't recommend
the series, but to those with an open mind they are delightful.

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1985 1809 PST
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Here is the plot.  What is the title and author?

   A friend of mine here is looking for a short story that was
published in Analog some time ago.  He doesn't know the title or
author but has described the main gist of the plot to me which
follows :

  The main character repeatly gets drunk and suffers from blackouts.
During his blackout periods he manages to invent machines.  When he
recovers from these blackouts he doesn't remember inventing the
machines and spends his sober periods trying to find out what they
do.  All the machines serve some useful purpose and sometimes the
inventor almost kills himself while trying to discover it.  He also
makes acquaintances during his blackouts and doesn't remember them
either when sober.  There is some comic relief as the main character
pretends he remembers everything.

   Any suggestions and/or pointers would be welcomed.

------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Here is the plot.  What is the title and author?
Date: 16 Jan 85 04:44:31 GMT

This is one of the Gallagher stories by Henry Kuttner.  They were
collected in a book called The Proud Robot.  (The robot started out
as a bottle opener, he thinks.  He hasn't found a use for it and it
just stares at itself in mirrors and complains about the ugly
humans.)

These stories are fun reading.  Gallagher has this habit of making
promises when he's drunk that he has to face up to when sober, while
putting on the pretense of knowing exactly what his clients want.
He spends great amounts of time just trying to find out *what* he
promised to build.  And of course, there are the things that just
show up in his lab that seem to have no useful purpose in life....

                                                -Dragon
UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: The Dark Cauldron
Date: 14 Jan 85 17:48:39 GMT

Does anyone know anything about this one? I read the books by Lloyd
Alexander and loved them. Is this an adaptation of the entire series
or just "The Black Cauldron" (or more likely "The Book of Three")?

Cheryl Nemeth
All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not
necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats.

"Life is a series of rude awakenings"
                                R. V. Winkle [Robert Asprin]

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui Q. Koala)
Subject: Re: The Dark Cauldron
Date: 16 Jan 85 21:28:58 GMT

>Does anyone know anything about this one? I read the books by Lloyd
>Alexander and loved them. Is this an adaptation of the entire
>series or just "The Black Cauldron" (or more likely "The Book of
>Three")?

The latest I've heard is summer 1985 release.  Finally.  By what is
left of Disney studios.  People I've talked to who have seen the
work being done with it and know the technical issues of animation
are praying for an earthquake or other act of God will destroy the
negatives and prints, because there simply isn't talent of the
quality needed to do Black Cauldron properly.  It was a project of
Walt's and Don Bluth's that is one of the most complicated and
difficult pieces of animation ever attempted, and the bozo's who are
stuck at Disney studio's have trouble drawing their way out of a
paper bag.  Not that I'm biased, or anything, but Bakshi has a
better chance of doing Black Cauldron right than Disney does.  Walt
would be the first to burn that negative based on what I've heard
and seen; of course, he is dead so expect it to be released and flop
at least as well as 'Fox and the Hound' or 'Black Hole', two of the
more illustrious pieces of film to come out of Disney in the last
few years...

chuq

From the ministry of silly talks:
Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

Do not wait until tomorrow to tell someone you care. Tomorrow
doesn't always come.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Jan 1985 06:07:15-PST
From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: movie request

I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The
Adolescence of P1".  Does anyone know anything about it?  The book
was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net and
eventually attains consciousness.  It was unusually accurate for
this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames".

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 85 23:00:11 PST (Wed)
To: inmet!bloom@topaz
Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

"The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" was bad only in the sense of
groaning at puns, etc.  It was intended as a comedy from the start.
"The Wizard of Mars" had no intentional laughs, and was thoroughly
lousey all the way through.  I particularly recall the air "tanks"
they wore.  They were supposed to be dual tanks, much like a set of
scuba tanks, but they were too cheap to get the tanks!  They took a
single large box and painted two cylindrical tanks on it.  They
didn't even bother to shave off the corners of the box, where
nothing should have been!  It was the WORST costume I had ever seen.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 85 14:16:57 EST
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: re: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes

Saying that "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" is the worst SF movie
ever made is a bit like saying "Airplane" is the worst disaster film
ever made.  "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" is a *spoof*, and pretty
damn funny one, too.  "The Wizard of Mars" and "Plan 9 from Outer
Space" are funny because they're so bad, not because they try to be
funny.  "Attack" is an entirely animal.

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!bbanerje@topaz (B. Banerjee)
Subject: Re: Worst SF movie
Date: 15 Jan 85 04:34:30 GMT

>>
>> My vote for worst SF movie is "Horror of Party Beach."
>>
>> Cheryl Nemeth

I agree.  Lesson learned from this flick was that chunks of sodium
thrown at radioactive slime monsters will zap them.

One evening, on a late night that I still recall with masochistic
thrill, I sat through this, followed by Susanne Somers in "Zuma
Beach".  Arguably, two of the worst movies ever made.

Regards,
                        Binayak Banerjee
        {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!bbanerje
P.S. Send Flames, I love mail.

------------------------------

From: alice!jj@topaz
Subject: The worst Sci-Fi (and I don't mean SF) movie ever made
Date: 16 Jan 85 18:25:58 GMT

Oh, what about "Plan Nine from Outer Space"?

Aren't we all forgetting the classic horrible sciffy movie of them
all?

Or maybe "Green Slime", the movie most noted for the way the smoke
from the rocket engines eventually flows upwards, just like it was
...

TEDDY BEARS PROTECT PENGUINS FROM WALRUSES
"I wish I was home again, back home in my heart again, it's been
such a time since my heart's home to me. ..."

(allegra,harpo,ulysses)!alice!jj

------------------------------

From: 's@btbnl (.UUCP)
Subject: A Science Fiction Question
Date: 13 Jan 85 21:29:15 GMT

        Can anyone out there please help me with this question?

Q:  What was Captain Kirk's (Star Trek) son's full name?

          Sincerely,
          William M. Tatun
UUCP: ...!decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!bt
ARPA: bt@bnl
Telephone: 516-475-6255 (VOICE)
MAILING ADDRESS:  197 Schoenfeld Blvd.
                  Patchogue, New York
                         11772

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 13:56:04 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: "interactive fiction"

Has anybody played with the Trillium versions of RENDEZVOUS WITH
RAMA or FAHRENHEIT 451?  I read somewhere that Clarke had written an
alternate ending for RAMA.  Are either of the programs worth buying?

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 85 20:15:20 est
From: cjh@cca-unix (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Boskonians on the net
Cc: decvax!decwrl!rhea!bartok!feldman@cca-unix

The New England SF Assn (NESFA) doesn't have an ARPA address per se.
Individual NESFen who are (a) on the ARPANet and (b) extensively
involved with Boskone include Jim Turner (RG.JMTURN@MIT-OZ, I think)
and myself. None of the people working Programming this year are on
the net, but we can relay anything you want said to them. (You might
be better off sending USNail: NESFA, Box G, MIT Branch PO, Cambridge
MA 02139-0910.) The chair, Ann Broomhead, works at DEC-Bedford, but
I have no idea what machine she's on.

It occurs to me that it might be useful to have a directory of clubs
reachable via the nets, similarly to Rich Zellich's con
calendar---any volunteers?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 85 1112-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 18 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:

            Books - Forward & Leiber & Nourse (5 msgs) &
                    Priest & Zelazny (3 msgs),
            Films - Jitlov Shorts,
            Television - Space: 1999

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: denelcor!lmc@topaz (Lyle McElhaney)
Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly)
Date: 15 Jan 85 00:39:50 GMT

> I discovered another new (to me) author on that same trip ...
> Robert L. Forward.  His first novel, DRAGON's EGG, was published
> five years ago and is a real treat.

Forward's latest book, "The Flight of the Dragonfly" has been
released in a trade edition. Like "Dragon's Egg", the science is
absolutely first rate (as you would expect); very solidly based and
yet imaginative in the style of Hal Clement's planets. The
engineering of the spacecraft and especially the Christmas Bush
robot(s) is unique.

The characterizations of the scientists in Dragonfly is, like his
first book, very stilted. To a man (and woman), the characters are
*absolutely* dedicated to their arts-science (all are multiply
talented), and are extremely well-adjusted to each other and their
fates (they cannot have children, will never return from their
voyage, and experience relativistic alienation).  They have no
faults. The story would be very boring if it had to depend only on
the characters and their interactions.

Buy it to read a world-class scientist speculate on inter-stellar
travel.  The plot, in this case, is not the thing, nor the style.
I've certainly paid a lot more (than the trade price) for books that
taught less without half of the interest.

Lyle McElhaney
...denelcor!lmc
{hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (e.leeper)
Subject: Re: Someone has apparently pirated "Conjure Wife" by Fritz
Subject: Lieber
Date: 15 Jan 85 13:29:37 GMT

>     While vegetating early one Saturday afternoon, I found on the
> tube a movie which I think they had titled: "Witches Brew".  It
> was the second movie I've seen based on Fritz Leiber's "Conjure
> Wife".  I checked out the credits at the end of the movie
> thoroughly, and while they listed a couple of 'writers', they gave
> Fritz absolutely no credit.  How can they get away with this?

Nope, the third movie--don't forget WEIRD WOMAN (1944).  My
suspicion is that Leiber was paid but asked to have his name kept
off the credits.  Of course, since the thing has run only on cable
(as far as I can tell), they may not have paid him.  If so, I'm sure
the lawyers are hacking it out now.

WITCHES' BREW is an okay film as a parody of BURN WITCH BURN (I
haven't seen WEIRD WOMAN--it seems to be semi-lost), but if you
haven't seen BURN WITCH BURN or read CONJURE WIFE, skip it.

                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                        ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1985  13:57 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Name the Book...

I believe the book is "Doctor to the Stars" by Alan E. Nourse

------------------------------

From: orca!andrew@topaz (Andrew Klossner)
Subject: Re: Name the Book...
Date: 13 Jan 85 01:56:30 GMT

>"I read this when in Junior High, so i'm fuzzy on details.  If
>anyone can identify the author/title/publisher etc. I would
>appreciate it ... The book is set in a far future Earth whose sole
>export to the rest of the (non-human) galaxy is its medical
>technology.  The hero is the first non-human medical student sent
>to earth.  The book covers his training, and some of his early
>career."

The book is "Star Surgeon" by Alan Nourse.  My copy was published by
Scholastic Book Services, which means I bought it back in grade
school.

This is a great juvenile.  It gently teaches that racial
discrimination is bad by showing humans dumping on the first alien
to enroll in an Earth medical school.  This is also the book where I
first encountered the concept of a colony of unicellular organisms
with a single intelligence.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)       [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jan 85 18:12 EST
From: "Allan C. Wechsler" <acw@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: Dean Sutherland's title request

Maybe Dean F. Sutherland is thinking of Nourse's _Star Surgeon_.  My
favorite Nourse is _The Universe Between_.  I liked him a lot when I
was younger, and now I'm wondering if I missed any.  Can someone
with a good index forward to the digest a chronological list of
Nourse's novels?  Is he still writing?

   --- Allan
[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who sent in
similar information:
Ray Chen (chenr%tilt.FUN@topaz)
Morris M. Keesan (keesan@BBNCCI)
Rich Alderson (A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1])
Dave Lampe (ptsfb!djl@topaz)
]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 1985  13:59 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Can anyone identify

>Date: Wednesday, 9 January 1985  14:55-EST
>From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland at TL-20A.ARPA>
>
>this book?  It was written by Alan E. Nourse (I think...)
>
>Hero is a member of "Earth Intelligence".  He is trying to catch a
>spy for the "bad guys" (I don't remember who they are).  The spy
>has the ability to teleport himself from any point on a planet to
>any other, or to teleport from ground to orbit (or vice versa).  I
>recall that the Earth empire held together because their military
>could supposedly cause suns to nova.
>
>The only other thing that I remember is that many characters turn
>out to actually be different people than the reader is led to
>believe.  In fact, at least one character really isn't the person
>HE thought he was...

This one is (I think) "The Programmed Man".  The author is not
Nourse, but a husband/wife team, in the early part of the alphabet.

------------------------------

From: asente@Cascade.ARPA
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify
Date: 16 Jan 85 00:46:52 GMT

> From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
>
> this book?  It was written by Alan E. Nourse (I think...)
>
> Hero is a member of "Earth Intelligence".  He is trying to catch a
> spy for the "bad guys" (I don't remember who they are).  The spy
> has the ability to teleport himself from any point on a planet to
> any other, or to teleport from ground to orbit (or vice versa).  I
> recall that the Earth empire held together because their military
> could supposedly cause suns to nova.
>
> The only other thing that I remember is that many characters turn
> out to actually be different people than the reader is led to
> believe.  In fact, at least one character really isn't the person
> HE thought he was...

This sounds a lot like "The Programmed Man."  I read this when I was
about in 7th grade so the memory's a bit fuzzy, but I recall liking
it.  It was definitely a juvenile SF book.

        -paul asente

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley)
Subject: THE AFFIRMATION by Christopher Priest
Date: 14 Jan 85 02:16:07 GMT

I recently read THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE by Philip
K Dick, which is an excellent novel that has been disgracefully
neglected.  When I came upon Christopher Priest's THE AFFIRMATION
(Arena, London, c1981, L2.50 -- this is a 1983 British trade
paperback) I was struck by how inevitably Dickian the book seemed,
especially in the light of TEETH.  TEETH tries to be a 'mainstream'
novel about the 'little universes' we all live in; its sf aftertaste
made it unpublishable at the time it was written, in 1960, and Dick
was driven to give up on mainstream writing (his next novel was THE
MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE).  There are certainly some superficial
similarities between the novels.  THE AFFIRMATION has been billed as
'mainstream' fiction (a bit of a joke -- the cover is very careful
never to mention the words 'science fiction', although no
experienced reader would fail to notice its sf nature), and it also
has failed to find an American publisher; I understand the
experience has left Priest somewhat bitter.  The careful prose and
the distinctly English sensibility of THE AFFIRMATION are quite
different from Dick's work, however.  Yet at a deep level there are
consistencies: if I say that the psychology of THE AFFIRMATION is
like TEETH and the philosophy is like UBIK, perhaps you'll get a
feeling for what I mean.

Peter Sinclair's breakup with his girlfriend has left him deeply
disturbed with himself.  His image of himself is losing definition,
and as a defense he decides to write his autobiography, hoping to
rationalize his life, to give it theme and structure.  Soon he
discovers that his own memory is insufficient to reproduce his life
-- when he writes about it, he finds that the events seem to have
happened to another person, the details threaten to trap him and
prevent him from characterizing the grand metaphors in his
existence.  So he decides to fictionalize: he will create a new
universe for his narrative, one that will have correspondences to
his own but which he can shape at will: he will write himself into
existence.  After a while we detect that something is wrong,
however, and an accumulation of little discrepancies lead us to
wonder whether the narrator is entirely sane, and worse, who is
imagining who...

An added twist, for those who know Priest's work, is that the
alternate world which Peter Sinclair 'creates' is the same as the
Dream Archipelago in which a number of Priest's stories are set.
Although Priest tells us (in the introduction to AN INFINITE SUMMER,
a superb collection) that the Dream Archipelago stories are not
'linked', it's hard to avoid wondering about the connection between
THE AFFIRMATION and the story 'The Negation', especially when the
latter features an author who has written a novel titled THE
AFFIRMATION.

I liked THE AFFIRMATION, although I suspect that another reading
will change some of my ideas about it...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley)
Subject: A Zelazny story wins a prize
Date: 15 Jan 85 03:16:31 GMT

From The New York Times, 1/12/85:

        Detroit, Jan. 11 (AP) -- A 16-year-old honor student agreed
        to return a $1000 prize for a short story that he originally
        said he had written but that he later admitted was the work
        of Roger Zelazny, a prize-winning author.

        The student, Phil Broder, said Thursday, after he was
        confronted by his father and school officials, that he had
        lifted his story, 'The George Business', about a lovesick
        knight and a cynical dragon, from UNIVERSE VARIATIONS [sic],
        a collection by Mr. Zelazny that was published in 1983.

This episode sounds like a wonderful short story subject -- I wonder
if Zelazny would care to fictionalize it as an alternate universe
story and title it 'Universe Variations'?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 17 Jan 1985 06:08:12-PST
From: faiman%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Neil Faiman ~ ZKO2-3/N30 ~
From: 381-2017)
Subject: _The_Changing_Land_

I'm another Zelazny fan who has found the Dilvish books to be fun
reading -- far from great, but certainly enjoyable for anyone who
enjoys Zelazny.  But I've been baffled by one thing about
_The_Changing_Land_.

              (**********  Minor spoiler  **********)

Fairly late in the book, there's a fairly long sequence in which the
castle comes unstuck in time and gets accelerated off into the far
future.  Now, this whole sequence is a spectacularly close copy of
the central portion of William Hope Hodgson's _The_House_on_the_
Borderland_ -- far too close for coincidence.  So why did Zelazny
copy a big chunk of an obscure early 1900's fantasy story?  Was
anyone else struck by this?

        -Neil Faiman
Easynet:        ELUDOM::FAIMAN
ARPA:           FAIMAN%ELUDOM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
UUCP:           {allegra,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-eludom!faiman

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 85 11:05:27 PST (Thursday)
From: Lfeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Zelazny

Along the same lines, Zelazny writes incidents involving his
characters which he deliberately leaves out of his published work,
on the ground that these extra incidents give the character more
backgound and a deeper personality.  See the short essays in his
most recent (late 84?)  collection.  Sorry, the name's been
forgotten -- it's got "Unicorn" in the title.

Lawrence

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz
Subject: Re: animated sf shorts
Date: 14 Jan 85 07:46:00 GMT

Pyramid (the film co., not the computer co.) distributes either "The
Wizard of Speed and Time" or "Animato," and may well distribute his
other films as well.
                                         Wombat
                "I am not, nor have I ever been, jan howard finder"
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 85 23:39:28 PST (Wed)
To: alice!alb@topaz
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

The following is from "Fantastic Telivision": a reference book to
many TV-SF serials, and ancient memories.

The spelling of the alien's name was "Maya."  She came from the
planet Psychon.  In four pages of description, the only things
"Fantastic Television" had to say about her were "He (Fred
Freiberger - producer for the second season) also wanted to add new
characters, most significantly an alien named Maya who would serve
as Alpha's science officer" and "The introduction of Maya, however
was not the wisest move.  Audiences looked upon her as a gimmick---a
Mr. Spock rip-off, a token, rather than a resident, alien."  The
pertinent details from the index of episodes follows:

THE METAMORPH: This first episode of the (second) season ...
introduces Maya to the regular cast.  On the planet Psychon, an
evil-minded alien named Mentor captures the Alphans and tries to
drain their minds.  His daughter Maya who is capable of transforming
herself into any form, helps the Earth people escape.

I vaguely recall this episode.  Their planet was doomed, reason
unremembered.  Mentor had created a 'protein computer' which had
transmutation abilities, but it got it's power from intelligent
beings, using them up in the process.  Maya's father was killing off
everyone in sight trying to charge the computer up to save his
planet, and just about killed off the Space 1999 regulars before
Maya finally discovered him and destroyed the computer, which set
off a chain reaction killing her father and destroying the planet
(or at least making it uninhabitable).  Thus she joined the Alphans.

There was one other episode that had a criminal from her planet who
had been put into some kind of suspended animation and cast adrift.
Same plot: Maya believed everything he said up until the end when
she found him out and betrayed him.  The episode was called
"DORZAK", which was presumably his name.  The description given in
the index is worthless.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 85 1142-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 19 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:

                 ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - 2010 ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: cvl!hsu@topaz (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: Floyds computer
Date: 10 Jan 85 18:38:04 GMT

> In response to Tom Galloway unless my eyes were totally shot when
> I saw 2010 ( possible considering the company ) the computer on
> the beach was a Hewlett Packard HP-110.  A much better computer
> than the Apple //c but still not what one could expect for
> thirty-five years from now.  Even a Convergent Workslate may have
> looked better.

Well, sorry to say this, but it really was an Apple //c with the
optional and (dare I say it) rare LCD display.  The HP's display is
very visibly hinged, and somewhat thicker.  Also, those oversize D
connectors with the thumbknobs are rather obvious.

And of course, Apple did negotiate for product placement in the
film. A shame they didn't use the stuff with Floyd's Mac, also made
available for the film.  Re: last issue of Softalk magazine, circa
Sept 84.

-Dave Hsu
(hsu@cvl)

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine)
Subject: Re: 2010 glitch
Date: 9 Jan 85 18:49:07 GMT

>From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA

>Did anyone notice this one?  In the "Mission Report" at the
>beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in
>1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho
>monolith".
>
>I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at
>Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly.  Please
>correct me if I'm wrong.  (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering
>to).

In '2001', the monolith found on the Moon was designated Tycho
Magnetic Anomaly 1, or TMA-1 (it was originally detected because it
had an enrmous magnetic field).  The monolith found near Jupiter was
called TMA-2, although (as someone in the book noted) it was nowhere
near Tycho and was not magnetic.  However, I can see the name
mutating over the course of 11 years.  I imagine the Monolith would
become the subject of near-legendary tales, like those of the bodies
from the crashed flying saucer in a hangar in Texas...

Oh, Clavius was the location of the base that Heywood Floyd was
traveling to at the beginning of the film.  (It's amazing how much a
man can change in 11 years... by 2010, he looked just like Roy
Scheider! :-) ) That may be what you remember.

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb)
Subject: Re: 2010 glitch
Date: 10 Jan 85 21:36:29 GMT

Sorry, Brett, you're close but not correct.  The lunar base where
Floyd and company landed was, indeed, Clavius (located in the crater
Clavius).  The monolith was dug up in the crater Tycho -- thus its
title, TMA-1 (Tycho Magnetic Anomaly-1).  If you'll recall, Floyd
had to take a trip via moonbus out to the Tycho site from Clavius.

You know, I wonder why they didn't refer to the "Tycho monolith" as
"TMA-1" in 2010?  Too confusing to the audience?  Just not enough
continuity?

B.K. Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

"Will this upstart ever stop?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 14:02:28 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: 2001: book versus movie

Actually, in the book Dave never even tries to get Frank.  Instead,
HAL opens the pod bay doors while Dave is inside the ship (causing
the air to escape), and he is forced to locate an emergency closet
with an oxygen tank in it.  Not nearly as exciting, but it does
attribute more sense to Bowman.

        - Mike

------------------------------

Subject: 2010: A few quick comments..
From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeffrey Smith)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 16:04 EST

   Despite some "critics" opinions, I think that 2010 was a very
good movie, in fact one of the best I have seen in the last 12
months.  Yes, there were some technical difficulties , but according
to my science consultant, only one couldn't be explained (the pen
and pencil sequence obviously).

> One other thing.  Does anyone know what that small thing was that
> flew out of the airlock when it was opened?  I have been wracking
> my brain trying to figure out if it had any significance in 2001.

That was a peice of paper. In 2010 Kurnov wonders if it was some
last vital message from Bowman, but then it goes out of his reach
and out to the stars.

> The ending of the movie 2010 is fine, and the monolith scene is
> lovely.  But a major point is left out from the book!  The aliens
> (monolith makers, not Europa greenies) tell Bowman that someday,
> after the Europans mature as an intelligent race, that the solar
> system will be only big enuf for one race, and at that time the
> Aliens will choose between them...  which one lives, and which one
> is snuffed out (as was the life on Jupiter, depicted in the book).
>         In other words, THE LAST JUDGMENT.  Shape up, Humans, or
> SHIP OUT!  Certainly calling off the war with the Russians is a
> step in the right direction (the alternative might spare the
> Aliens the trouble of exterminating us).

Don't be an idiot. The main ideal stressed by the Aliens was the
SAVING of Mind, not the destruction. They only killed the life on
Jupiter because it could never flourish to intelligence, but by
Jupiter's destruction, the Aliens could propigate intelligence in a
more hopefull race, the Europans. The Aliens would never kill the
humans (or the Europans for that matter!) just because we have some
political difficulties. The book means that if humans and Europans
cant get along well, we may have to slug it out (out first
intersteller war!) , and the winner takes all.  (Two solar
systems... Quite a prize!!)

"You know I have the greatest enthusiasm for this review, Dave."

------------------------------

From: trandolph%cougar.DEC@topaz
Subject: 2010 bugs...
Date: 11 Jan 85 13:27:40 GMT

>Did anyone notice this one?  In the "Mission Report" at the
>beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in
>1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho
>monolith".

If so, someone needs a lunar map. Without looking it up, I can only
say that Tycho is well south and west of the Sea or Tranquility (is
it Mare Cognitum? someone get a map!)

>I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at
>Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly.  Please
>correct me if I'm wrong.  (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering
>to).

Well, in the novel 2001, the monolith was found in the crater Tycho,
because of it's abnormal magnetic field. Hence, it was called Tycho
Magnetic Anomaly One (TMA-1)...  In fact, I believe the monolith
found by Dave Bowman was christened TMA-2...

T.F.Randolph
UUCP:   ...{allegra,amd,decvax,ihnp4,nsc,ucbvax}!
                               decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cougar!trandolph
USnail: DEC,Mail stop LMO2/E01, 111 Locke Drive, Marlboro, MA 01752

------------------------------

From: zehntel!jackh@topaz (jack hagerty)
Subject: Discovery pods
Date: 11 Jan 85 00:54:40 GMT

All of you people who claim that in the book 2001 Bowman retrieves
his pod by remote control after his "helmetless" re-entry must have
a different version of the book than I.

According to my copy of 2001, the original version published
concurrent with the movie, Bowman never goes after Poole. After HAL
bunted Poole into oblivion with the pod, Bowman tracks him with the
telescope. Seeing that the air line is torn and that the body
doesn't move (except for a random flapping of an arm a la the dead
Captian Ahab in "Moby Dick") Bowman decides that the rescue of a
dead body is not worth the danger of an EVA.  It is *Poole's* pod
that Bowman returns by remote control.

HAL then tries to kill Bowman by opening both the inner and outer
pod bay doors at the same time and evacuating the ship. He has to
struggle "uphill" against this artificial hurricane until he reaches
the emergency cubicle where the spare space suit is.

After disconnecting HAL, Bowman takes one of the pods into the
monolith.  So, *according to the book*, the pod bay should have had
*two* pods, both with doors attached, and no air in the ship. Of
course, according to the book, they should have been around Saturn
as well!
                          Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Automation Systems
                          ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh

------------------------------

From: houxz!disc@topaz (S.BERRY)
Subject: Re: Discovery pods
Date: 11 Jan 85 13:24:10 GMT

Of course, all this discussion about the differences in the handling
of the pods (and other things in general) between the BOOK 2001, and
the MOVIE 2001 is moot.  Clarke wrote the BOOK 2010 as a sequel to
the MOVIE 2001.
                        SJBerry

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb)
Subject: Re: Discovery pods
Date: 11 Jan 85 14:59:49 GMT

On the matter of the Discovery's pods...

Did anyone else look closely during the sequence where Brasilov and
Curnow first enter the pod bay?  When one of them shines his light
into the remaining pod, you can see through the pod's front window
that the door to the pod is either open or missing -- there's a
rectangular opening where the light is shining through.

Hmmm... Looks like Bowman could have brought back his pod on remote
after pulling his "cannon shot" to get back into Discovery.  Anybody
else out there see this?  Or was it something in the popcorn?

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

"You'd better patronize me."

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland)
Subject: Re: 2010 glitch
Date: 11 Jan 85 14:02:16 GMT

>Did anyone notice this one?  In the "Mission Report" at the
>beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in
>1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho
>monolith".
>
>I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at
>Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly.  Please
>correct me if I'm wrong.  (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering
>to).

You are wrong. The monolith was in Tycho and was called the "Tycho
Magnetic Anomaly - 1" or TMA-1 Clavius was the moon base.

                                        Randy Buckland
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz (john)
Subject: Re: Floyds computer
Date: 12 Jan 85 20:22:00 GMT

  No, Floyds computer was a apple II-C with LCD display. Apple had
anounced that the LCD would be available by fall which would have
been close to the release date for 2010.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: tekecs!waltt@topaz (Walt Tucker)
Subject: Re: Discovery pods
Date: 14 Jan 85 16:41:27 GMT

> All of you people who claim that in the book 2001 Bowman retrieves
> his pod by remote control after his "helmetless" re-entry must
> have a different version of the book than I.

The pod reference is in the book *2010*, not 2001.  Strange, the
book 2010 was a sequel to the movie 2001, not Clarke's book 2001.
Hence, what is explained in the book 2010 is what happened in the
first movie, not the first book.
                      -- Walt

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 85 13:22:51 EST
From: Jon <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: 2010 (Oh no, not again)

I have a few qualms about the discussion regarding 2010.  Here
goes--- (and please forgive me, I haven't read the 2010 book yet)

1) I am ashamed at some of you out there!  This whole matter of a
missing helmet in the pod bay is driving me nuts!  Do you think that
the space agency that sent out Discovery (is it still Nasa?) would
skimp in the spacesuit department?  I should hope that the powers
that be would have provided a spacesuit for each person on the trip,
EVEN THOSE IN HIBERNATION!  God forbid that when all were revived a
problem arise in the ship requiring each crewmember to suit up.
What happens to Kaminsky, et al?  Suffocation?  I think not!

2) The end of the film really bit the big one, I'm sure you all
agree.  Very anticlimactic, if you ask me.  Hyams really blew it by
leading us on with the "Something Wonderful..." bit.  It was more
like "Something Catastrophic...".  An ultimatum from Bowman would
have been more reasonable; something along the lines of "If you
don't leave within 48 hours, you'll be neutronized" would make me
stop in my tracks faster than it "o-my-gosh, golly-o-gee Something
Wonderful..."
  As Jupiter was imploding, I completely cringed at Dr. Floyd
yelling "hurry!"  Obviously, the Leonov was up at cranking speed,
and could not go any faster.  I would have preferred him to adopt
the Arthur Dent Attitude of Impending Doom, ie. "so this is it,
we're going to die."  Although not a tension builder, it would be
more realistic.
  Finally, an implosion of Jupiter has to be able to cause
disasterous things to the Leonov and the Earth.  Consider this- a
power that has the ability to create stars should also have the
power to shield selected objects from being annihilated by the
event.  I don't think that this is unreasonable.  They/he/she/it
would have at least computed the ramifications in advance of
actually making a sun (there was enough time to, over the course of
the millions of years of human development).

3) There is something else that no-one has mentioned (or is it in
the book?).  What happened to SAL?  The only hint of this in the
movie comes after HAL asks Dr. Chandra, "Will I Dream?".  Dr.
Chandra replies, "I don't know..."  Does this mean that he lost SAL?
Let's have some discussion about this.

JOn (TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA)
The preceding discussion represents the opinion of myself, and not
my employers or anyone else for that matter.  It's what sets me
apart from the rest of you.

------------------------------

From: zehntel!jackh@topaz (jack hagerty)
Subject: Re: Re: Discovery pods
Date: 15 Jan 85 18:23:14 GMT

> Of course, all this discussion about the differences in the
> handling of the pods (and other things in general) between the
> BOOK 2001, and the MOVIE 2001 is moot.  Clarke wrote the BOOK 2010
> as a sequel to the MOVIE 2001.

This is true, but my question still remains: what do the people mean
who say that, in the book, Bowman retrieved the pod by remote
control?  Some mail from Peter Bain prompted me to re-read that part
last weekend.  In that sequence, Bowman never goes after Poole. When
last seen, the pod, still under HAL's control and with the lifeless
form of Frank Poole still tethered to it, was accelerating away from
the Discovery at full thrust.

BTW, as Peter pointed out, this occured while they were still
several months away from Saturn so there was plenty of time to
re-pressurize the ship. There was also a mention of the smell from
the rotting food which "the air purifiers could never quite get rid
of."
                    Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Automation Systems
                          ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 22 Jan 85 1051-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jan 85 1051-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:

      Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Chandler & Forward & Kuttner &
              Nourse & Schmitz (2 msgs) & Sucharitkul & Wolfe,
      Films - Enemy Mine & The Black Cauldron &
              Perils of Gwendolline & Rare SF Movies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories
Date: 15 Jan 85 18:04:00 GMT

TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA writes:
>Obviously, Adams has something more planned.  A recent entry into
>the digest about an Adams interview suggested that he was taking
>some time off, so I do not expect to see anything coming soon.  I'm
>sure he has some ideas brewing on a back burner about the fifth
>book of the trilogy, so I'll be waiting with my peril sensitive
>sunglasses in the meantime.

Bad news: I was at a lecture Adams gave in Berkeley and he said the
Hitchhiker's series was over. He was working on a movie (with the
people who did Ghostbusters). Anyone else have information on this?

Cheryl Nemeth
All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not
necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats.

"Life is a series of rude awakenings"
                                R. V. Winkle [Robert Asprin]

------------------------------

From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz
Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories
Date: 22 Jan 85 02:11:00 GMT

> Bad news: I was at a lecture Adams gave in Berkeley and he said
> the Hitchhiker's series was over. He was working on a movie (with
> the people who did Ghostbusters). Anyone else have information on
> this?
> Cheryl Nemeth

From what I have heard, Ivan Reitman (Heavy Metal, Meatballs,
Caddyshack, Stripes, and Ghostbusters) has been signed to produce,
direct, or both for the motion picture version of "The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy".

Probably means that Bill Murray will play Zaphod and Harold Ramis
will play Ford, leaving John Candy to play Arthur.

        "I'm a doctor, not a Vogon Constructor Fleet!"

                .rne.
Ernie Longmire
311 Don St. SE
Los Lunas NM 87031
UUCP: {purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
  {csu-cs,pur-ee,gatech,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa

------------------------------

Date: 19850118-2146EST
From: BLUEINC%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: the A.B.C's of SF

  Unfortunetly, I recently heard that A. Bertram Chandler did die
due to his stroke. For those of you who don't know who he is. He
wrote a series of books about Commodore Grimes of the Interstellar
Federation Survey Service.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 85 02:03:48 PST (Sat)
To: denelcor!lmc@topaz
Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>> I discovered another new (to me) author on that same trip ...
>> Robert L. Forward.  His first novel, DRAGON's EGG, was published
>> five years ago and is a real treat.
> Forward's latest book, "The Flight of the Dragonfly" has been
> released in a trade edition. Like "Dragon's Egg", the science is
> absolutely first rate (as you would expect); very solidly based
> and yet imaginative in the style of Hal Clement's planets. The
> engineering of the spacecraft and especially the Christmas Bush
> robot(s) is unique.

   Thank you.  Having read and enormously enjoyed Dragon's Egg, I
take that as a strong recommendation.  I'll have to try to find "...
Dragonfly".

   I agree completely about Forward's science.  After the
disappointments, gaps, and need for massive suspension of disbelieve
so common with most sf, the solidity and excitement of Forward's
ideas is a great relief.

> The characterizations of the scientists in Dragonfly is, like his
> first book, very stilted. To a man (and woman), the characters are
> *absolutely* dedicated to their arts-science (all are multiply
> talented), and are extremely well-adjusted to each other and their
> fates (they cannot have children, will never return from their
> voyage, and experience relativistic alienation).  They have no
> faults. The story would be very boring if it had to depend only on
> the characters and their interactions.

   I have to contend with you about the characterisations on 2
points: 1 - the explorer type is often like that -- witness Thor
Heyerdahl, or the people who are not content until they've walked to
the South Pole or dog-paddled the Pacific (I am *not* mocking; I am
using hyperbole to emphasise a point): without that kind of oneness
of purpose, they couldn't do it.  2 - I think you're only talking
about the human characters.  What about the various characters
throughout the history of the Egg (just now I can't remember what
they called themselves)?  Quite a variety of range and colour there
-- recall the "messiah" who was the first to feel the probe laser on
his topsides.  And of course, that was the focus of the story: the
evolution of the neutron creatures and their society, and the most
notable characters in their history.

> Buy it to read a world-class scientist speculate on inter-stellar
> travel.  The plot, in this case, is not the thing, nor the style.
> I've certainly paid a lot more (than the trade price) for books
> that taught less without half of the interest.
>
>    Lyle McElhaney
>    ...denelcor!lmc
>    {hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc

   Agreed on all counts.
                            Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Barry Gold)
Subject: Re: Drunken Inventor
Date: 18 Jan 85 04:07:40 GMT

Your friend is thinking of ROBOTS HAVE NO TALES by Kuttner.  It has
five short stories in it about Galloway Gallagher, whose genius was
only released when he got drunk.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: Dean Sutherland's title request (Really Nourse)
Date: 17 Jan 85 06:44:19 GMT

>From: "Allan C. Wechsler" <acw@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
>Maybe Dean F. Sutherland is thinking of Nourse's _Star Surgeon_.
>My favorite Nourse is _The Universe Between_.  I liked him a lot
>when I was younger, and now I'm wondering if I missed any.  Can
>someone with a good index forward to the digest a chronological
>list of Nourse's novels?  Is he still writing?

I don't have a chronological or a complete list, but I'll name a few
as an excuse to put in a plug for one of my all time favorites.

That being _Raiders From the Rings_.  I must have read this book
more than 20 times back in younger days. I would always check
Raiders and Heinlein's _Space Cadet_ out from the school library
several times a year and spend some happy hours with them.  As you
might guess from the distinguished company I mentioned, Raiders is a
juvenile space adventure (not juvenile in any pejorative sense) set
partly in the asteroid belt.  It seems that sometime in the future,
Earth starts to colonize space and then gives it up as a bad job,
leaving the spacers to fend for themselves.  There is one big catch,
because of something to do with radiation and chromosomes (Nourse is
a doctor and makes it convincing), no girls are born in space.  To
survive, the spacers must make lightning raids on Earth to collect
women (who like the Sabines eventually come to like their new life).
Needless to say, the Earth authorities take a dim view of this and
wage a massive propaganda campaign against spacers (which includes
supressing the facts that impel the spacers to raid).  The story's
main character is a young spacer on his first raid. Through a series
of circumstances I don't quite remember, he catches both a girl and
her brother (which isn't supposed to happen).  From that point on,
everything starts to go wrong, his ship is damaged and his home
wiped out by a massive counterattack from Earth (which has decided
to opt for the Final Solution). The only way to save the day is for
the 3 hereditary enemies to band together ... and nonhuman eyes are
watching too.  Great stuff -- give it to your kids, read it
yourself.

OK, got that out of my system (though I may do a posting on my
favorite juveniles someday).

_The Universe Between_  - already mentioned, another good juvenile on
                          an alternate dimension's theme.

_Psi High & Others_     - A story collection, some good ones in
                          there as I recall.

_Hospital Earth_        - A collection a stories set in the same
                          universe as _Star Surgeon_. (Including, I
                          think, the one about the crew who find the
                          only way to control the amoeba like thing
                          infesting their ship it to keep eating it)

_The Mercy Men_         - A novel about the human volunteers for
                          medical experiments (I think, never did
                          get a chance to read this one)

_Bladerunner_           - Nourse's most recent book that I am aware
                          of, a kind of "If this goes on" for
                          medicine.

_Tiger by the Tail_     - Another collection

I'm sure there are some others, I think that I'm surely missing at
least one story collection and maybe a novel.  To cover that case, I
will say that I've never read anything of Nourse's that I regretted
(although of course some are better than others).

                        Turning a corner that isn't there
Ted Nolan                    ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle        ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206
      ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: Witches of Karres
Date: 17 Jan 85 06:09:51 GMT

walker@unc.UUCP (Doug Walker) writes:
>The Witches of Karres was written by James Schmitz.  I enjoyed it,
>so I got some of his other books - The Telzey Toy and one other -
>and they were absolutely awful.  Really bad stuff.  I wouldn't mind
>seeing a sequel to Witches of Karres, but don't waste your time on
>his other books.

I strongly disagree.  I think that the Telzy Amberdon stories are
some of the best character oriented sf from the period and that they
still stand up well today.  Telzy herself in a very appealing
person, and her universe quite interesting.  I always wished that
Schmitz had written more stories in this milieu, both to see Telzy
again and to expand some on the background of life in the Hub
Federation. As a SC state legislator prepares to introduce mandatory
seat belt laws into the House, I find myself pining for an
Overgovernment whose general policy is to leave people alone so the
race doesn't loose its competitive edge.

For people wanting more Schmitz, I can suggest a few things I
haven't seen mentioned on the net yet : _A_Tale_of_Two_Clocks (a
novel of the Old Galactics and Trigger Argee Unfortunately, there is
an alternate title for this one which I can't remember ), _Agent of
Vega_ (a short story collection), _A Pride of Monsters_ (another
collection) and "The Witches of Karres" - the novella on which the
substantially different novel was based (available in one of the SF
Hall of Fame volumes).

BTW if you can find the first (only?) DAW edition of _The Lion
Game_, the Freas cover is worth the price of the book in itself
(especially if you are male).

                        psigning off
Ted Nolan                    ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle        ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206
      ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 85 21:19:00 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin    )
Subject: James Schmitz

  Anyone who enjoyed "Witches of Kares" would probably also enjoy
the Telzey Amberdon stories (start with "The Telzey Toy"), the Vegan
Empire stories, and the stories of the Kyth Interstellar Detective
Agency.
                                                        Steve

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!msj@topaz (Mike St. Johns)
Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul
Date: 13 Jan 85 11:47:11 GMT

I actually ran into him in a book store in DC.  HE was living there
at last I knew.

Mike St. Johns
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!msj
StJohns@MIT-Multics.ARPA  (404) 982-0035

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz
Subject: Wolfe
Date: 14 Jan 85 07:32:00 GMT

mcdonald@smu writes
>Wolfe's newest book is _Live_Free_Live_.  It was advertised
>incorrectly as _Love_Free_Love_.  All I really know about it is
>that the title comes from a classified ad offering free rent and
>that every time he explains what it's about he says something
>completely different.

Closer - actually, it's *Free Live Free*. One of the main characters
is named Ben Free, and he places the ad inviting people to come and
live in his house rent-free. It was fairly easy to finish, but I
don't think it was up to the caliber of *The Book of the New Sun*. I
don't think he did a good enough job with his major characters, and
the resolution was kind of silly.
                                        Wombat
                "I am not, nor have I ever been, jan howard finder"
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: watrose!vljohnson@topaz (Lee Johnson)
Subject: Re: Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (very long)
Date: 17 Jan 85 02:33:07 GMT

> "Enemy Mine"
>       "Das Boot's" Wolfgang Petersen directs this tale of two
> enemy space pilots - one human (Dennis Quaid), the other not (Lou
> Gosset, Jr.)- as they fight and learn to respect each other in a
> distant galaxy.  (Fox)

Is this based on Barry B. Longyear's story of the same name?  If so,
this is a movie I want to see!

Regards,
Lee Johnson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jan 1985  15:37 EST
From: Nan Ellman <ASP.SNARK%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: calmasd!cjn@TOPAZ.ARPA (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: The *Black* Cauldron

I suspect that the movie only covers this one book, since it is a
complete story in itself. I am a bit apprehensive about it, though.
I also loved the books, and I would hate to see Disney do to them
what it did to _Sword and the Stone_.  Lloyd Alexander treats his
characters intelligently (all right I know T. H. White didn't) and I
hope Disney gives them the same courtesy.

Nan

(if they make Orwen, Orddu, and Orgoch into comic characters I will
KILL!)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 85 16:58 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Perils of Gwendolline movie

According to the Feb '85 /Comics Journal/, the "Perils of
Gwendolline" movie /is/ based on the comic, but the bondage has been
removed.

Mark

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Rare Sci fi Movie
Date: 18 Jan 85 21:07:55 GMT

You might try writing to Blackhawk Films in Davenport, Iowa. They
specialize in old and obscure films, and have extensive archives. At
very least, they might be able to point you to a source that could
supply you with information.

Another possible source of information is classified ads in film
journals/magazines. Check your local library for magazines like Film
Comment, etc.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jan 85 1116-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:

         Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & Huysmaus & Kuttner &
                 Vance & Vinge & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                 Time speeding (2 msgs) & Females in SF (2 msgs),
         Films - Worst SF Film (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 20 Jan 85 17:25:39 GMT

> The rumor I have heard is that the author has planned the books
> out so that there will be a total of fifteen. Is this true? Does
> anyone know any better? Could you bear it if there *were* this
> many?

I certainly would like to read more of Donaldson.  But more Thomas
Covenant?  Hmmm.  I am not sure where he (Donaldson) can go from
here.  I greatly enjoyed the series even though for the first few
books, TC was just a real pain to be around -- for the reader as
much as anyone *in* the story.

And, no, I could not take 9 more books on the same story line (I
don't think I could).  I feel obligated when I start a series to
finish it...  And I don't want to read that much about TC. (I
stopped reading about Pern because I got all dragon-ed out after 4
or so books...)

But Donaldson's writing -- of *that* I would like to see more.

Fred Avolio
301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA:  grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

From: alice!alb@topaz (Adam L. Buchsbaum)
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 20 Jan 85 16:43:29 GMT

I saw Steven Donaldson when he came to talk at Princeton in May,
1983.  This was just after WGW came out.  He is a marvelous speaker,
after he gets relaxed (he starts out very nervous).  I wish I had
taken notes so I could relate some of the things he said, but he
explained the TC books and the logic behind them very well (and
answered questions about them).  One thing he said that I do
remember quite well was that he was taking a rest from the TC books
to finish his book of short stories (''Daughter of Regals'' -- I
have it -- VERY good) and that he MIGHT do another trilogy ''in the
future.''  At the time, I didn't get the feeling that he would.  I
don't blame him.  He wants to put his energies and talents into
something else (some other writing; maybe not even SF/Fan).  He said
he hadn't even planned to do the second trilogy, but that the first
sold so well and he got so much mail in support of them that Del Rey
pursuaded him.

------------------------------

From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Here is the plot.  What is the title and author?
Date: 19 Jan 85 23:28:53 GMT

>One of Gallagher's inventions was a 'liquor organ' that would mix
>drinks and dispense them through a hose so he could get drunk lying
>down.

The idea of a 'liquor organ' was published by Joris-Karl Huysmaus in
his book "A Rebours" <Against the Grain>, in 1884.  This is a
classic work in the field of decadent literature.  One of my
favorites in my "Evil and Decadence in Literature" class at MIT.

John Wenn

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Here's the plot, what's the title?
Date: 17 Jan 85 07:48:19 GMT

> From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
>    A friend of mine here is looking for a short story that was
> published in Analog some time ago.  He doesn't know the title or
> author but has described the main gist of the plot to me which
> follows :
>   The main character repeatly gets drunk and suffers from
> blackouts.  During his blackout periods he manages to invent
> machines.  When he recovers from these blackouts he doesn't
> remember inventing the machines and spends his sober periods
> trying to find out what they do.  All the machines serve some
> useful purpose and sometimes the inventor almost kills himself
> while trying to discover it.  He also makes acquaintances during
> his blackouts and doesn't remember them either when sober.  There
> is some comic relief as the main character pretends he remembers
> everything.
>    Any suggestions and/or pointers would be welcomed.

Your friend may be thinking of "The Proud Robot" by Henry Kuttner. I
guess you could say that it was published in \\Analog//, in much the
same manner that my copy of \\What Mad Universe// (a story written
in a 1954 time frame) has the protagonist suggesting that his
girlfriend meet him at "Kennedy Airport" instead of Idlewild.

Anyway, back to "The Proud Robot". Original publication was in 1943
in \\Astounding Science Fiction//. My reference is \\The Best of
Henry Kuttner// (Ballantine, 1975), and I believe I have seen it in
a couple of other places as well. The protagonist, Gallagher, is an
inventor who can only work while he's bombed out of his skull.
During his latest binge he invented a robot who is not only proud,
but unswervingly egotistical and disobedient. Gallagher is
threatened with financial ruin unless he can get the robot, who may
have the solution to his problems, back on track...  Another offbeat
story by a man who wrote lots of them.

                                        Bill Laubenheimer
                                        UC-Berkeley Computer Science
     ...Killjoy went that-a-way--->     ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 85 21:21:43 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin    )
Subject: Magnus Ridolph

  Could someone give me pointers to Jack Vance's Magnus Ridolph
stories?

                                                        Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 1985 10:50:45 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: True Names Re-release

     Like many readers of sf-lovers, I've been awaiting the
re-release of Vernor Vinge's "True Names", one of the best novels
about computers, hackers, and artificial intelligence.  Last night,
I spoke with Bob Walters, who did the cover and interior art for the
new edition, and he provided me with the following news:
     The book, complete with an afterword by Marvin Minsky, was
scheduled for an October release, and was so announced in
Publisher's Weekly and other trade magazines.  However, due to
various foulups at BlueJay Books and/or St. Martin's Press
(BlueJay's distributor), it was not actually released until late
December or early January.  Despite this, Jim Frenkel, BlueJay's
editor- in-chief, did not revise the book's copyright date to read
1985.
     Many bookstores, including the major chains such as
WaldenBooks, Crown, and Dalton's, have a buying policy which
prohibits the purchasing of "old" releases unless they are either
proven sellers or specially-ordered by the customers.  "True Names",
because of its '84 copyright, is considered as "old" even though it
never reached the shelves, and thus never had a chance to
demonstrate whatever selling power it might have.
     If you want this book, you will have to go and order it.  I
strongly urge all sf-lovers readers to do this, and to get their
friends to do it, too.  If enough special orders for the book start
piling up at the various chains, they may choose to stock it.

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

From: aecom!adler@topaz
Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ?
Date: 18 Jan 85 07:34:23 GMT

>       Have others read the Zelazny novels about the character
> Dilvish ?  Any comments ?
>       I enjoyed them quite a bit. I first read "The Changing
> Land" but then picked up the other one (I forget its title). This
> seconds takes place before "The Changing Land" but was apparently
> published after it. Anyone know the story behind this curiousity ?
>       Any other novels coming on Dilvish ?
>                                       Dan

        The other book "Dilvish the Damned" is composed of short
stories, which were published in other places before being collected
into the book. I haven't heard anything about a new Dilvish book,
but the question reminds me - has any one heard anything about the
Amber books that were rumored to be in the works?
                                Jeremy Sanders
                                aecom!sanders

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 21 Jan 1985 06:33:49-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)

>From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley)
>From The New York Times, 1/12/85:
> ...lifted his story, 'The George Business', about a lovesick
> knight and a cynical dragon, from UNIVERSE VARIATIONS [sic],
> a collection by Mr. Zelazny that was published in 1983.

        Don't they mean UNICORN VARIATIONS?  The story was quite
amusing, and the collection as a whole well worth reading.

                        /BEB

------------------------------

From: hcrvx1!tracy@topaz (Tracy Tims)
Subject: Fast Computer Design
Date: 18 Jan 85 03:47:33 GMT

I figure that as soon as we invent a subjective time rate
modification field (cf. many SF stories) we will be able to built
extremely fast computers.  Just put a computer, any computer, inside
of a sped up field.

There are some drawbacks: the power consumption is directly
proportional to the speed increase, and the thing will probably need
really strange cooling devices to radiate away all the heat it would
generate.  You'd also have to design interface devices between the
two time areas.  They could be based on electromagnetic radiation
with receptors in a different band on each side.  (Apparent
frequency shifting as the radiation crosses the field interface.)
(The CPU activity light fried his hand off?)

I think it's probably hard to simulate a system that's (in a similar
timeframe) more complex than the system you are building the
simulator in.  But if we can get the differential time rate, we
could simulate, well, everything!

My only question is, who thought this up first?  (I know about
Niven's field).

Tracy Tims    {linus,allegra,decvax}!watmath!...
Human Computing Resources Corporation          {ihnp4,utzoo}!...
Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  416 922-1937        ...hcr!hcrvx1!tracy

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!bane@topaz (John R. Bane)
Subject: Re: Fast Computer Design
Date: 22 Jan 85 01:43:27 GMT

        On the subject of speeded-up time; I remember reading an
article in an old Analog entitled "Far Out Physics" in which the
author speculated about negative mass. You see, time runs slower
near large normal masses (accelerated frames of reference);
therefore, time will run FASTER near a large negative mass.

ARPAnet: bane@maryland
CSnet:   bane.umcp-cs
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!bane

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: female protaganists
Date: 17 Jan 85 07:16:46 GMT

To my mind, the best female fantasy character is Tiana of Reme,
highrider,pirate and heroine of an S&S trilogy by Andrew J. Offut
and Richard Lyon.  The last book of the three , _Web of the Spider_
is an extraodinary book, much better than the other two and I
heartily recommend it. There are some images in that one that have
really stuck with me (the hungry apples, the scene depicted in the
Rowena cover , the Owner, and Caranga watching a world too real to
be bourne as absolute good and absolute evil play for his world,
knowing a victory for either will doom humanity).

If you ever had any urge to read S&S with a female protagonist, get
this book.

BTW, also get Jo Clayton's Moon books (esp _Moonscatter_).  Altys of
her Diadem books isn't bad either.

Ted Nolan                    ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted
6536 Brookside Circle        ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206
      ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")

------------------------------

From: enmasse!mroddy@topaz (Mark Roddy)
Subject: Re: Re: female protaganists
Date: 19 Jan 85 18:43:45 GMT

How about Cirocco Jones from John Varley's _Titan_ series?

------------------------------

Date: Sat 19 Jan 85 21:16:38-EST
From: Michael Eisenberg <DUCK%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Worst sf movie of all time

Although it's kind of a cliched choice, here's another vote for
"Plan 9 from Outer Space". Though I don't, in general, believe in
the "it's-so-bad-it's-good" school of criticism, Plan 9 is an
exception. It's so bad it's brilliant. It's perfection times -1.
Change anything, anything, no matter how small, how trivial, and you
would have a superior movie.

Remember the interior of the aliens' spaceship? -- A bare room with
a wooden table?... Or the "double" for Bela Lugosi who looks nothing
at all like Lugosi?...  Or the military man who tells his superior,
"General, what kind of soldier would I be if I didn't believe in the
things I saw and shot at?"

Even "The Green Slime" looks like "Citizen Kane" by comparison.

                                - Mike Eisenberg
                                 DUCK@OZ

"Someday, someone will pass you in the dark, and you won't even know
it, because they'll be from outer space!"

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made
Date: 18 Jan 85 06:19:51 GMT

bloom@inmet.UUCP writes:
>And here all along I'd been thinking that the Worst S-F Movie Ever
>Made was "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" --- or does that not
>even make it into the realm of s-f?

I enjoyed "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes." I don't know if I'd call
it sci-fi; it was more of a parady on "Jaws."

Cheryl Nemeth
All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not
necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats.

"Life is a series of rude awakenings"
                                R. V. Winkle [Robert Asprin]

------------------------------

From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss)
Subject: Re: Worst SF movie
Date: 17 Jan 85 04:38:21 GMT

>> My vote for worst SF movie is "Horror of Party Beach."

> "Zuma Beach".  (with Miss Somers)

Ok choices, but the all time worst must be:

"Plan Nine From Outer Space" : Bela Lugosi dies during filming, he
                               is replaced by a man 1/2 foot taller
                               who constantly keeps a cape in front
                               of his face.

"The Creeping Terror"        : Narrator: "John wondered what was in
                               the space ship."
                               John: "I wonder what's in this space
                               ship."

"Glen or Glenda"             : Bela again, in a touching, shocking,
                               revealing look at transvestites.

There are, of course, others.  But these are the best,..er.. worst,
...er..

(I like mail, too, and accept all flames.)

-Michael  "on the the Twilight Node"  Weiss
UUCP...!gondor!weiss

     - The opinions expressed herein are those of my superiors,
       and are not necessarily shared by the author.

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made
Date: 22 Jan 85 03:05:50 GMT

Without doubt, at least to me, the worst science fiction movie has
to be "Santa Claus Conquer the Martians."  As for "Attack of the
Killer Tomatoes", I don't think that one should count; it was
intended to be as bad as possible.
                                           John L. Templer
                                    University of Texas at Austin
    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jan 85 1203-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:

                Books - Nourse & Zelazny,
                Music - Theme From COSMOS,
                Television - Space: 1999 (6 msgs) &
                        The Adolescence of P1 (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85  9:43:57 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBNCCI.ARPA>
Subject: Alan Nourse

One book by Dr. Nourse (pronounced "nurse") which is likely to get
missed from many bibliographies is a non-sf work written under a
pseudonym.  The book is "Intern", written by "Doctor X", which was a
highly controversial bestseller when it came out, chronicling the
life of a medical intern, with many of the gory details.  I read it
a few years ago, long after its release, and from a modern viewpoint
I couldn't see what all the fuss was about.  An excellent book, but
not one to incite controversy these days.

------------------------------

From: reed!schmidt@topaz (Alan Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Amber?
Date: 21 Jan 85 21:28:09 GMT

> has any one heard anything about the Amber books that were rumored
> to be in the works?
>                               Jeremy Sanders

        You mean there are/will be MORE Amber books after
_The_Courts_of_Chaos_?  Forgive me, but I didn't like Dilvish, and
I've been waiting for another _Changeling_ or Amber sequel.

        _Doorways_in_the_Sand_ is another fantastic book by the
immortal author.  I rather liked the perpetual undergraduate,
probably because I do not want to leave the relative safety of
college life and be forced to deal with the real world myself.

                                -- Alan
                                (..tektronix!reed!schmidt)

------------------------------

Date: 20-Jan-85 23:49 PST
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Request for theme from COSMOS...

I know it was once submitted to the digest but...I can't find my old
references.  Please send me any info you may have.  Thanks, --Bi\\

------------------------------

Date: Thu 17 Jan 85 10:31:15-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #19

On another topic, the shape-changing alien woman in "Space: 1999" was
named Maya--the name of the Hindu/Buddhist goddess of illusion.  
Another version of her appears in Zelzny's greatest book, _Lord of 
Light_.
                                                Rich Alderson ARPA:
Alderson@Score, Alderson@Sierra

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 18 Jan 85 09:05:26 GMT

Catherine Schell played the role of Maya, who as orphaned on the
Zooming Moon when her (decidedly) evil father managed to get their
planet destroyed.  There was no mention at all of mass conservation,
although some interesting references to her superior mental powers
were made. Her ability to change shapes was not explained in any
detail. The change was instantaneous, and she had to have had some
sort of previous contact (she couldn't make up a monster and become
it).

Although I didn't like the way they did up her eyebrows, I always
thought she was cute.  I thought she was cute in Return of the Pink
Panther too.

Sean

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery (the tame hacker on the North
From: Coast))
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 19 Jan 85 23:16:25 GMT

kevin@voder.UUCP writes:
>    The only thing I really had a hard time with, other than the
> fact the moon must have been traveling at hyper-speed or falling
> into space warps right and left)

As I remember it, spacewarps played a large part in quite a few
episodes.  They went through one just before they got to Psychon
(see below); they passed through a black hole as (I think) the third
episode, surviving because they had a super gravity warp they
devised as a result of their being blasted away in the first place
(don't you just *love* it); they went through one while leaving some
people behind inspecting an alien vessel (which just happened to
have a spacewarp detector in it), et cetera.  They also went through
one just prior to returning to Earth every time they did return (but
I'm not certain of that).  Time was thrown off by these spacewarps,
I believe.

> was the alien women character in the second season who could
> change her shape into anything.  I can't remember her name
> (something like Myra) but she was played by Catherine Schnell.  I
> just cannot accept

Maia, played by Catherine SCHELL.

> that a 110-120 pound person can change into a 200lb panther and
> then into an insect!  Something about conservation of mass and
> energy.  If mass and energy are truly the same then a 300lb
> monster would have no energy left and a tiny fly would have so
> much it probally couldn't contain it.

I can (barely) see the massiveness question; although how a 120 lb
insect could move, I know not... but what really threw me was the
fact that she could transmute in the first place.  How did she hold
120 lbs = 4.889e25 ergs (thank you, "units" :-) of energy together
without turning herself (and the moon) into a mushroom cloud?  Or
were her shape changes reminiscent of a Tleilaxu Face Dancer?

> I did like the designs of the Eagle Transporters and the Hawk
> attack ships, I thought they looked quite realistic and the
> concept of the cargo modules made sense, although you probally had
> to be carefull about fancy manouvers if you wern't carrying a
> cargo section as it must have strengthend the entire framework.

Eccept that they always flew with SOME kind of module; the cargo
module (plain), or the bomb module (red striped), or *something*.
(Amazing what you can remember of rotten shows; it just proves the
saying about bad news vs. good news...)

--bsa
Brandon Allbery @decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa
(..ncoast!tdi1!bsa business)
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131
+1 216 524 1416 (or what have you)
     Who said you had to be (a) a poor programmer or (b) a security
                               hazard to be a hacker?

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery (the tame hacker on the North
From: Coast))
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 19 Jan 85 03:31:46 GMT

alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes:
> The alien woman you refer to was named ''Mia'' (maybe it was
> spelled Mya, I dunno, but it was pronounced ''Mie-ya'').

Maia.  (That was a low point; all the SF I could find at the time
was Star Trek I was watching for the 6000th time, and that.
Thankfully, we started going to a larger library soon after that (my
mother needed her fix of SF too, it runs in the family).

--bsa
Brandon Allbery @decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa
(..ncoast!tdi1!bsa business)
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131
+1 216 524 1416 (or what have you)
     Who said you had to be (a) a poor programmer or (b) a security
                               hazard to be a hacker?

------------------------------

From: reed!schmidt@topaz (Alan Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 21 Jan 85 20:46:15 GMT

        Since Maia COULD fly when she became honey bees, and her
leaves didn't plunge to the ground when she became ordinary house
plants, the conservation of mass wasn't in her physics book.  So....
        How about some applied TARDIS technology?  (Don't get on my
case, Who-ites, I know this isn't exactly 100% right.)
        Maia projects herself into a fourth dimension, and then
reprojects herself into this dimension with altered size and mass.
This also conveniently explains how her considerable intelligence
would fit into those tiny, tiny brains (well, not really, but
pretend it does).
        She DID believe in conversation of life (she couldn't change
into anything which wasn't living, even if she thought it was).
That I CAN'T fathom.
                                -- Alan
                                (..tektronix!reed!schmidt)

------------------------------

From: rochester!sher@topaz (David Sher)
Subject: Re: Space: 1999
Date: 24 Jan 85 05:25:29 GMT

The thing that most struck me about the early shows of 1999 was the
shoot first and ask questions later philosophy they operated on (My
whole family collectively decided not to watch the later shows).
Whenever they ran into anything strange their first response seemed
to be send out some eagles and shoot it down.  This might have been
understandable except for the fact that what ever they sent the
eagles against was either 1. totally dead 2. So advanced as to make
their eagles look like a tonka truck (Captain, rather badly
constructed space craft using reaction engines are tickling our
sheilds with low powered laser weapons.  Kirk: set phasers to stun,
we don't want to hurt those primatives) The only reason the eagles
survived was that the superadvanced types they tried to shoot down
usually didn't recognize them as weapons.  -David Sher

------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: movie request
Date: 18 Jan 85 13:44:53 GMT

> From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
> I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The
> Adolescence of P1".  Does anyone know anything about it?  The book
> was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net
> and eventually attains consciousness.  It was unusually accurate
> for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames".

Yes, I saw it last week on a local PBS station.  It was 60 minutes
long.  It was a fun, low budget affair but by no means was it much
more "accurate" than "Wargames" was.

Fred Avolio
301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA:  grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun 20 Jan 85 20:05:32-EST
From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P-1

Indeed, there was a production loosely based on the book "The
Adolescence of P-1". It was televised on the "Wonder Works" Public
Television show. It looked to be made in Canada and was apparently
shot on-location there. I was not very happy with the result - in
the original book, P-1's creator was an adult systems programmer who
wrote P-1 earlier in his life when in college at the University of
Waterloo. In the film version, P-1's writer is given as a
high-school kid who is known by the name of "hacker" (no doubt
inspired by all of the recent media hype over high-school crackers).
The movie version was also remarkably deficient in details and
glossed over many aspects of the original book. Still, it was
obviously an adaptation of the original.

        --Vince

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 22 Jan 1985 10:24:37-PST
From: augeri%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Query about The Adolescence of P1

>From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
>I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The
>Adolescence of P1".  Does anyone know anything about it?  The book
>was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net and
>eventually attains consciousness.  It was unusually accurate for
>this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames".

There was a movie on the Boston PBS station (WGBH, channel 2) last
week titled "Hide and Seek" that was based on the book "The
Adolescence of P1". The movie was done by the Canadian Broadcasting
Company (don't remember the year), had a cast of unknowns (probably
Canadian), and was only about 55 minutes long. The ending credits of
the movie gave credit to the book for the story. In the movie the
program was created by a high school hacker playing a game that
looks like "Life".  The kid explains to a friend that the patterns
being generated by the game looked like computer programs. So, he
tried to run one of these patterns that he had saved, and bingo, he
had created this incredibly intelligent program. Don't get me wrong,
I enjoyed the book and the movie, but from my memories of the book,
the creation of the program was more believable than the way it was
depicted in the movie, even though I can't remember the details of
the book. In the movie, the program gets into a computer that is
controlling a nuclear power plant and creates a situation where the
reactor is about to go critical. In the book I remember the program
getting into some super-powerful defense computer, but my memory
fades after that. In both stories the attempt to destroy the program
fails, so the program is still around somewhere...

        Mike Augeri
UUCP: {your_path_to_decwrl}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!augeri
ARPA: augeri%regina.dec@decwrl.arpa
ENET: regina::augeri

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine)
Subject: Re: movie request
Date: 21 Jan 85 21:42:15 GMT

avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) writes:
>> From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford)
>> I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The
>> Adolescence of P1".  Does anyone know anything about it?  The
>> book was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the
>> net and eventually attains consciousness.  It was unusually
>> accurate for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames".
>Yes, I saw it last week on a local PBS station.  It was 60 minutes
>long.  It was a fun, low budget affair but by no means was it much
>more "accurate" than "Wargames" was.

The PBS children's anthology series "WonderWorks" has a program
called "Hide and Seek" which was based on "The Adolescence of P-1."
At least, that's what it said in the credits.  Actually, the only
thing the two have in common is P-1's first line, which is

        CALL GREGORY.  P-1

They've changed the locale from Silicon Valley to Canada (required
by Canadian content legislation, I guess).  They've changed the hero
from a wiseass computer professional to a socially immature high
school student.  They've changed P-1's origin from a deliberate
system cracking program to an accidental outgrowth of a version of
Life on a Commodore Pet.  The entire plot has been changed out of
all recognition.

In the TV show, the hero first discovers that his creation has
gotten out of hand while he's cracking the school computer to change
his girlfriend's grades (sound familiar?).  There are supposed
system professionals who do nothing but spout nonsense peppered with
phrases from the Hacker's Dicitonary.  The ending is
incomprehensible.  Yet, it entertains.  Viewed as a juvenile, I
think it succeeds.

I can mildly recommend the book "The Adolescence of P-1", although
it's dated.  I can also mildly recommend "Hide and Seek" to those
under, say, 16.  However, "Hide and Seek" is just another "War
Games" cash-in that bears little if any resemblance to the book upon
which it is supposedly based.  I suspect that the author of the book
had no say whatsoever in the story of the TV show.

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 1985 15:05:15-EST
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: re: movie request
Cc: redford@doctor.DEC, @, decwrl.arpa@NADC

The show was on Wonderworks, which is a PBS offering for children.
I happened to be watching it with my kids one day.  The plot is
about a computer program which becomes conscious and when
threatened, actually commits a murder and tries to take over
computer resources controling a nuclear power plant.  I don't know
the title, but the computer program was named P1.
            Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 85 1306-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asprin & Eddings & Kuttner (3 msgs) &
                   Wyndham & Sub-creation & Female Protagonists,
           Films - Gwendoline & Worst SF Film (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pyuxhh!kurt@topaz (K A Gluck)
Subject: Books to read - a good new author
Date: 22 Jan 85 05:53:10 GMT

I have just finished my second book by Robert Asprin and all I can
say is that it is very very funny.

I have read:  Another fine myth
           :  Myth conceptions

I would never want to ruin them by even beginning to describe them
in any sort of detail.

Check out chapter 13 of the second book, and laugh (but dont read
ahead).

The books are of course comedy sword and sorcery.

If you  liked Divlish the damned you should like these.

Kurt Gluck SPL 1c273a
Bell Communications Research Inc 6 Corporate Place
Piscataway NJ, 08854
ihnp4!pyuxhh!kurt
(201)-561-7100 x2023

------------------------------

From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight)
Subject: re:Castle of Wizardry
Date: 19 Jan 85 19:30:07 GMT

> Path: harvard!se
> Subject: Eddings' Belgariad
>
> Castle of Wizardry--Belgarath's tower?  This one isn't obvious.

        Let's try that one more time....

        Castling is a maneuveur in which the rook and king (almost)
exchange places.  The title may be referring to Garions sudden
ascendancy to the Rivan throne.  One moment he's Garion and the next
he's Belgarion, king of the Western Kingdoms.

                             D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz
Subject: Re: Here is the plot.  What is the title
Date: 20 Jan 85 07:17:00 GMT

> The main character repeatly gets drunk and suffers from blackouts.
> During his blackout periods he manages to invent machines.  When
> he recovers from these blackouts he doesn't remember inventing the
> machines and spends his sober periods trying to find out what they
> do.

The Gallagher stories were collected under the title "Robots Have No
Tails" (or something pretty close to that) in the late 50's.  It's
the first SF I read, so I remember it with special fondness.  I
confess I can't recall whether the author, Henry Kuttner, is a
pseudonym for Lewis Padgett or vice versa...

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece

------------------------------

From: ratex!mck@topaz (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan)
Subject: Re: Re: Drunken Inventor -- Errata and Addendum
Date: 21 Jan 85 22:12:00 GMT

     The title is *Robots Have No Tails* (not 'Tales'); it's by
Henry Kuttner (whose pseudonym was 'Lewis Padgett' and who was
married to C L Moore); it was last published by Lancer Books (1560
Broadway, New York, NY 10036).  I got it back when a standard
paperback went for $.95; I recently spotted a copy in a used book
store (which a friend promptly bought under my recommendation).
     Read 'Time Locker' first; it's actually the first one written.
It may seem cliche; it wasn't when it was written!
     Anyone interested in a campaign to get more of Kuttner back in
print?
                                   TNX,
                                   Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan
                                   9120 Hawthorn Pt
                                   Westerville, OH  43081-9605

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Re: Drunken Inventor -- Yes, Let's get him back in print!
Date: 22 Jan 85 18:44:05 GMT

Sure and I haven't read a Gallagher story in years and years. I'm
all for a Kuttner revival.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"
Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 85 02:19:04 PST (Sat)
Subject: John Wyndham
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

   I recently finished re-reading The Days of the Triffids, after a
lapse of so many years that most of the story was once again new to
me.  It reminded me forcefully of the strength of Wyndham's style,
which seemed to waver remarkably little from book to book.

   What I find hard to understand is why Wyndham seems to be so
little read or discussed these days.  In particular, what with the
proliferation of nuclear disaster stories and the general fear of
nuclear accidents, you'd have thought that The Chrysalids would be
popular reading about now.  One of the best, certainly the most
touching, disaster stories I've ever read.  And several of his books
have been filmed (though the films, regrettably, are named
differently from the books).

   He was (I assume "was" is correct now) a very fine author, and a
leading light in sf.  How soon we forget.
                                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu 17 Jan 85 10:31:15-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #19

>I don't see why an author has to give you a complete glossary and 
>gazetteer to a fictional universe. As long as he knows what is 
>happening, according to a thesis by Tolkien, the world he is 
>describing will seem real enough. (I don't recall the term Tolkien 
>used to describe the flavor of realism got by placing a story in a 
>well-thought-out setting--do any of you?).

The term is "sub-creation."  See Tolkien's essay, 'On Faery Stories,'
reprinted in _The Tolkien Reader_.

                                                Rich Alderson ARPA:
Alderson@Score, Alderson@Sierra

------------------------------

From: fluke!moriarty@topaz (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Re: female protaganists
Date: 21 Jan 85 21:02:18 GMT

My goodness, how about C.J. Cherryh's "Morgaine" or "Chanur" books?

                        "...Who'z dat guy?"
                        "That's Berhard Goetz."
                        "Bern-hard Getzz?  De jazz musician?"

                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
    {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} --
!fluke!moriarty
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jan 85 21:18 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: More on Gwendoline

Here is more information about "The Perils of Gwendoline", from /The
Comics Journal/, Number 95 (February, 1985):

It cost $5 million and opened in Paris in February (1984), the
writer/director is Just Jaeckin, and it is described as "an
adventure tale that sends Gwen (California actress Tawny Kitaen)
from her Paris convent to the Far East, escaping with friends
Willard (Kansas-born Brent Huff) and Beth (Zazou) from cannibals,
sand-storms, and a villainous Amazon (Bernadette Lafont)." The
article didn't mention a US release.  They also mention that the
bondage in the original strip is not present in the film.

Mark

------------------------------

From: browngr!jfh@topaz (John "Spike" Hughes)
Subject: Re: Worst SF movie
Date: 23 Jan 85 01:31:17 GMT

I think the worst SF film ever made was "Sins of the Fleshapoids". I
think it suffices to say that one of the lead roles was played by a
vacuum cleaner.  The crowd at the UC theatre (in Berkeley), which
will watch almost anything, got to see this between 'A Boy and his
Dog' and "Barbarella". It hadn't been playing more than about 3
minutes when people started screaming at the projectionist to turn
it off.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 23 Jan 85 22:30:32-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Bad sf films

The most recently-made bad one I saw was SATURN III, with Farrah
Fawcett and Kirk Douglas, which could have used the slogan, "In
space, no one can hear you yawn."  However, my two favorite
nominees:

1) ROBOT MONSTER, also known as MONSTER FROM MARS and various other
titles.  This incredibly cheaply-made film featured an invading
alien named Ro-Man who was played by an actor in a gorilla suit
wearing a diving helmet.  Footage was used over and over to
represent different scenes, thus leading to some interesting
continuity problems.  Ro-Man had some sort of alien device in the
cave where he was living which produced soap bubbles.  *SPOILER,
though there isn't much to spoil* The film-makers actually had the
gall to end the film with "And then the boy wakes up."

Stephen King has warned that it can be dangerous to watch this film
stoned (an experiment I have not made).  He said if the film had
been longer than 75 minutes, he would have died from laughing too
hard.  This film really is worth seeing as a camp classic.

2) JUST IMAGINE.  Just imagine a science fiction musical.  With
terrible music.  Atrocious acting.  A ridiculous romance.  An
utterly stupid, supposedly comic person revived from the past.
Impossible plot features.  Unfunny humor.  (Example: Babies come
from machines.  The person from the past, seeing this, says
something like "Give me the good old days.")  And then, to top it
all off, a visit to Mars, where everyone is twins (one good, one
bad) and wears silly tribal outfits and ...  I can't go on.  I could
recommend this as camp, but only to those with extremely strong
stomachs.  The singing alone is enough to cause you to lose your
last several meals.

------------------------------

From: teklds!larryg@topaz (Larry Gardner)
Subject: chug's comment
Date: 21 Jan 85 23:52:55 GMT

Please tell me why you thought Fox and the Hound was a flop?

I thought it was one of the best movies I have EVER seen!!!

The plot or the moral of the story was fantastic and I am a dog
fanatic anyway.

karen alias larryg

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Another REALLY bad SF movie - "Trog"
Date: 21 Jan 85 22:03:33 GMT

Does anyone remember "Trog", starring Joan "Wire Coathangers!"
Crawford?  Talk about baaaaad - ugh! I usually *like* bad SF movies,
but I could barely get through this one. Marvelous. Mommie Dearest
plays a scientist in England when some caveman starts to terrorize
the local populace, she tries to make everyone see reason (I love
irony), the caveman finally comes out of his cave and tears apart
what must probably be the most stupid cameraman in the world... Then
they capture him and try to teach him to talk, but some bad guys let
him loose and he goes on a very tacky tour of the local hotspots...
Sigh. They just don't make 'em like they used to.

And talk about horrible costumes! The Troglodyte was a normal person
except for this really cheap gorilla-type mask like you can buy in
any Safeway or Target during Halloween for 20 bucks, and a little
fake hair pasted onto his arm (which came off at one point when he
was sticking his hands through the bars of his cage).

Sample dialog (which is what *really* made this movie what it is):

Joan - "What you have here is a living example of our ancestors -
        in short, this.. is... Trog!" ("Trog" pronounced "Trog-GUH")

Bad guy to other bad guy - "Sure, you're a man of science - but how
        do you feel, spending your career working for a *woman*?"

Trog - "Unnnngh!"

It's movies like this which answer the eternal question - "What did
they do with washed-up has-been ex-stars before 'Love Boat'?"

Davis Tucker
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO

------------------------------

From: uokvax!emks@topaz
Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made
Date: 20 Jan 85 18:54:00 GMT

>>  It was called "The Wizard of Mars", and had to be the WORST
>>  s-f movie ever made, bar none.
>
>And here all along I'd been thinking that the Worst S-F Movie Ever
>Made was "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" --- or does that not
>even make it into the realm of s-f?

No, you've got it all wrong.  "The Creeping Terror" truely has to be
the *worst* sf flick made.  It's really enjoyable.  Interesting
juxtaposition...

                kurt

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 24 January 1985, 08:17-PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman at SWW-WHITE>
Subject: Worst SF Movie

> From: Michael Eisenberg <DUCK%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>
> Although it's kind of a cliched choice, here's another vote for
> "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Though I don't, in general, believe in
> the "it's-so-bad-it's-good" school of criticism, Plan 9 is an
> exception. It's so bad it's brilliant. It's perfection times -1.
> Change anything, anything, no matter how small, how trivial, and
> you would have a superior movie.

C'mon!  How could you improve on the line "...is dead!  Murdered!
And one thing is for sure - somebody's responsible!"  Pure poetry.

> From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss)
>
> Ok choices, but the all time worst must be:
> "Glen or Glenda"         : Bela again, in a touching, shocking,
>                            revealing look at transvestites.

Naw, not Bela.  The part of Glen(da) was portrayed by Edward Wood,
director of this opus as well as Plan 9.

> From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
> Without doubt, at least to me, the worst science fiction movie has
> to be "Santa Claus Conquer the Martians."  As for "Attack of the
> Killer Tomatoes", I don't think that one should count; it was
> intended to be as bad as possible.

SCCtM also has the distinction of bringing to the screen for the
first time the inimitable Pia Zadora.

------------------------------

From: ihlpm!rfish@topaz (r.l. fishell)
Subject: Re: Another REALLY bad SF movie - "Trog"
Date: 22 Jan 85 17:57:28 GMT

> Does anyone remember "Trog", starring Joan "Wire Coathangers!"
> Crawford?  Talk about baaaaad - ugh! I usually *like* bad SF
> movies, but I could barely get through this one.

The whole point to "Trog" was its awfulness.  It's supposed to make
you laugh, not throw up, and sometimes it succeeds.  On the same
note, a more recent release, "Swamp Thing" accomplishes the same
effect.

I remember seeing a movie I think was called "Schlock" that was a
more deliberate attempt at humor in the "bad monster movies" genre.
Another called "Alligator" is one I can't quite figure out, was it
satire, or just unintentional humor?

Now, what I'd like to see is Woody Allen doing to "Godzilla" what he
did in "What's Up, Tiger Lily?"

                Bob Fishell

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Another REALLY bad SF movie - "Trog"
Date: 23 Jan 85 19:09:37 GMT

Let us not forget John ("See You Next Wednesday") Landis'
homage/parody to "Trog", called "Schlock."  "Schlock" was the
Schlockanthropus, played (as I recall) by Rick Baker, later to
portray Dino De Laurentiis' King Kong and many other great apes
before graduating to make-up professional.

"Schlock" has basically the same plot as "Trog," except that it's
played for laughs.  At the beginning of the film, a scientist
(wearing a protective helmet made of a piece of air-conditioner
duct) is descending into Schlock's cave on a rope when Schlock
appears from another cave entrance.  The workman holding the rope
naturally lets go, sending the scientist plummeting into the hole,
never to be seen again.  The movie is full of "Ariplane"-style
humor.

In the end, the Schlockanthropus is killed by a line-up of National
Guardsmen reminscent of the line-up at Kent State.  The last scene
(after the credits) shows the scientist finally crawling out of the
cave with a baby Schlockanthropus, promising a "Son of Schlock"
(which, unfortunately, never materialized).

This little film came out years and years ago, and it seems to have
vanished without a trace.  Perhaps memory has made it seem better
than it actually was.  The last time I saw anything to do with it
was a poster at the theatre at the beginning of Michael Jackson's
"Thriller," along with posters from all of Landis' other films.

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 85 1329-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asprin & Eddings & May & Nourse &
                     Riddell & Vance & White & Zelazny,
             Films - 2010 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II)
Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author
Date: 23 Jan 85 03:50:19 GMT

kurt@pyuxhh.UUCP (K A Gluck) writes:
>I have just finished my second book by Robert Asprin and all I can
>say is that it is very very funny.
>I have read:  Another fine myth
>           :  Myth conceptions
>The books are of course comedy sword and sorcery.

I'm disappointed with the paperback editions now in the bookstores
(I can't remember just who the publisher is just now).  These books
were available from Starblaze, a small publisher that does trade
size SF mostly, with silly illos by Phil Foglio.  The mass market
pbs have lousy standard fantasy covers... you know the kind I
mean... all the characters illustrated look kind of like Friar Tuck!
Oh well.

Dick Smith                              ..ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith

------------------------------

Subject: Eddings' Belgariad - Specifically the fifth book
From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (M.A. Murphy)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 1985 20:02 EST

This is incredibly trivial, but I was wondering if anyone out there
might no why Eddings changed the name of the last book in the series
from ENCHANTED END GAME to ENCHANTERS END GAME.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 85 15:43:09 PST (Thursday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Review: Julian May

<< THE SAGA OF THE PLIOCENE EXILE >> by Julian May
    < The Many-Colored Land >
    < The Golden Torc >
    < The Nonborn King >
    < The Adversary >
      (pub: Houghton Mifflin - Boston)

Whether you knew it or not, the Saga is what you've been waiting
for.  These books are not merely fantastic, but quite wonderfully
superlative.  The following review contains a little SPOILER
material, but it is stuff that you find out very early in the first
volume.

The Saga begins in the future/present of the 21st/22nd century.  By
this time, humans have begun to develop their latent genentic
potential for abilities referred to as Metapsychic functions.  Early
operants (metapsychics) send a plea for help (Save us from the
Bomb!) to the stars, and discover that the Galaxy is populated by
other races, all metapsycically operant.  Humanity is welcomed by
the coadunate races and nurtured toward metapsychic maturity and
Unity.

About the same time, a certain Professor Guderian discovers an
obscure phenomenon that allows him to build a one-way portal to
Pliocene Europe, six million years ago.  Many humans, unable to
accept life in the Galactic Milieu, escape to Exile in the idyllic
past of the Pliocene.

Exiled humans quickly discover that Pliocene Europe is dominated by
the Tanu, a race of aliens who have fled their galaxy for religious
exile on Earth.  The Tanu all wear golden torcs that make them
metapsycically operant.  These they give to metapsycically latent
humans in return for... servitude.

These few chapters bring you to the point where the good stuff
really begins.

Julian May provides lovable, hatable, believable and unforgetable
characters.  The plot is quite surprising and strangely satisfying.
May adeptly avoids references to "hard science" (where she is not
strong), and so presents a wondrous but believable technology, both
of matter and of mind.  Her world is fantastic and dangerous, a
place where almost anything can happen, and usually does.

I highly recommend these books to anyone who can read (or could
learn to).  Don't put this off and risk losing your vision in the
mean time.

Note:  The tales of the Coadunate Galactic Milieu pre-continue in

  << The Milieu Trilogy >>
    < Jack the Bodiless >
    < Diamond Mask >
    < Magnificat >

Enjoy yourselves; I did.

--Josh
"Pain is just God's way of hurting you."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 15:26 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Nourse titles

    After looking over the titles of Nourse's novels I noticed that
one of them was titled Bladerunner.  When the movie of the same name
was first out, I heard a rumor that Ridley Scott had bought the
rights to the name Bladerunner from a book about the interstellar
smuggling of medical supplies.

    Since the term Bladerunner never occured in Dick's Do Androids
Dream of Electric Sheep, this sounded plausible. I was slightly
disappointed because I thought that it sounded like a wonderful
premise and would probably never get made into a movie because of
this.  Now I know that this rumor was true, and who wrote
Bladerunner.  I'm going out to find it and read it.

    Thanks for the pointer.

Brett Slocum   <Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
                       <...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum>

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Jan 85 13:21:00-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Knight Moves MicroReview

I just read KNIGHT MOVES, by, I think, Walter Jon Riddell (whom I
have never heard of). It reminds me very much of CALL ME CONRAD by
Zelazny.  The style is very close to Zelazny's, though somewhat
inferior, as I see it, or at least extremely variable. There are
some very good spots, but there are a few stretches where a bit of
tedium sets in.

I won't include any material which might be considered a spoiler,
but the main theme is that of change in society, along lines
previously explored to some degree by Dickson in his Childe Cycle
and others with Future Histories that concern themselves with
periods in between the development of slowboat interstellar travel
and FTL (Niven comes to mind immediately). Add to that a dash of the
zany ultra-dimensional weirdness to be found in some of the books by
Rudy Rucker and you pretty much have a stylistic description of the
book. I recommend it though, as, so far, the best of the month's
crop of paperbacks.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Jan 85 10:57:57-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Magnus Ridolph
To: stever@CIT-VAX.ARPA

The definitive collection seems to be "The Many Worlds of Magnus
Ridolph" from DAW, containing:

   The Kokod Warriors
   The Unspeakable McInch
   The Howling Bounders
   The King of Thieves
   The Spa of the Stars
   Coup de Grace
   The Sub-Standard Sardines
   To B Or Not to C Or To D

If there are any M.R. stories other than these, I'd appreciate
pointers to them.  "The Worlds of Jack Vance", Ace, also contains
The Kokod Warriors, The King of Thieves, and Coup de Grace.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

From: ark!koppe@topaz (Adri)
Subject: Re: Book Identification -- "Star Surgeon" by Nourse
Date: 22 Jan 85 21:58:13 GMT

_Star Surgeon_ by James White was published in 1963.

This book is also about extraterrestials in hospitals.  It is the
second in a series of three books, the first one titled _Hospital
Station_.

The third title I have forgotten, but the books are highly
recommended!
                        Kees Huyser
                        VU Amsterdam (the Netherlands)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 1985  10:09 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Zelazny

The recent discussion of Zelazny on the net inspired me to re-read
some of my collection.  If there is anyone out there who has not
read Zelazny's "This Immortal" (also titled "...and call me Conrad")
you should IMMEDIATELY beg, borrow, buy, steal, (or whatever) a copy
and read it.  It is a VERY VERY good book.  I don't agree with
Alderson@score, however.  "This Immortal" is, in my opinion, clearly
superior to "Lord of Light".

Dean F. Sutherland
Sutherland@Tartan.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: ihuxk!rs55611@topaz (Robert E. Schleicher)
Subject: Re: 2010 bugs...
Date: 15 Jan 85 18:44:13 GMT

The monolith in 2001 was indeed found at Tycho, being christened
Tycho Magnetic Anomaly 1, or TMA-1, as another poster stated.  The
reason someone remembered Clavius, is that Clavius was the crater
where the lunar base was located, from which the expedition was sent
via lunar rover to the Tycho site.  The "reason" given for having
the monolith at Tycho was that the prominent "rays" surrounding
Tycho make it a very prominent lunar landmark.  Clavius happens to
be the nearst big landmark to Tycho, so that is where the base was
placed (I believe Clavius is the largest crater on the moon, at
least on the earth side.)

Bob Schleicher
ihuxk!rs55611

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 85 21:02:55 PST (Mon)
Subject: Re: 2010 (Oh no, not again)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> I have a few qualms about the discussion regarding 2010.  Here
> goes--- (and please forgive me, I haven't read the 2010 book yet)

   DO SO!!! Post haste!!!  It is excellent.  I would not have
believed that 2001 could be followed by something worthy of it, yet
Clarke did it.  Therein lies part of my distress with the movie: I
really feel it did not live up to the book.

> 2) The end of the film really bit the big one, I'm sure you all
> agree.  Very anticlimactic, if you ask me.  Hyams really blew it
> by leading us on with the "Something Wonderful..." bit.  It was
> more like "Something Catastrophic...".  An ultimatum from Bowman
> would have been more reasonable; something along the lines of "If
> you don't leave within 48 hours, you'll be neutronized" would make
> me stop in my tracks faster than it "o-my-gosh, golly-o-gee
> Something Wonderful..."

    No, I do *NOT* agree, in the least.  Had it simply ended with
the various Earth shots of the 2 suns (as I feared when watching
it), with the end of the story dealing with no more than Earth, it
would have done.  But it didn't: it went out to Europa and showed
the monolith patiently waiting, in a very beautiful scene.  And this
was very important, because it brought the story full circle,
beginning again on Europa as it had 3 million years ago (I think
that's the right figure) on the African veldt, at the start of 2001.

    *Anticlimactic??!!!* Jupiter goes nova, ignites, its moons get
thawed out, producing vast changes in their climates, and you call
it anticlimactic??  Of course it was something wonderful.  A whole
new group of worlds, especially Europa, given the chance to produce
intelligent life.  Even to the evolved Bowman, who still knew a
distant personal feeling for his former compatriots, the good of
this far surpassed the evil of the loss of the Leonov and the
Discovery.

> As Jupiter was imploding, I completely cringed at Dr. Floyd
> yelling "hurry!"  Obviously, the Leonov was up at cranking speed,
> and could not go any faster.  I would have preferred him to adopt
> the Arthur Dent Attitude of Impending Doom, ie. "so this is it,
> we're going to die."  Although not a tension builder, it would be
> more realistic.

   It would have been less realistic.  In situations of great
stress, the first thing to go in most people is logic.  Maybe it
would be logical to assume that Leonov was moving as fast as
possible, or that Captain Orlova was doing everything she could, but
do you really expect people expecting to die to think that way?

> Finally, an implosion of Jupiter has to be able to cause
> disasterous things to the Leonov and the Earth.  Consider this- a
> power that has the ability to create stars should also have the
> power to shield selected objects from being annihilated by the
> event.  I don't think that this is unreasonable.  They/he/she/it
> would have at least computed the ramifications in advance of
> actually making a sun (there was enough time to, over the course
> of the millions of years of human development).

    Disastrous to Leonov, possibly, but Earth is an incredible
distance from Jupiter, even at the closest points on their
respective orbits.  It would take the particles and radiation
discharged from Jupiter a nice long time to reach Earth, by which
point what's left of them (remember the inverse square law) would
probably be deflected by or picked up in the Van Allen radiation
belts and the magnetosphere.

    By the way, the movie really played up this point: short
circuits, jolts, people going flying, the works.  In the book, the
expanding gas shell passes over Leonov without making any impression
at all: only the radar can tell that it has now passed the ship.  Of
course, they make sure the ship is stern-on to Jupiter, to try to
minimise radiation exposure.

    I see no logic in your "selectivity" argument.  Somebody who
bombs a building (or a city) has the ability to eliminate it, but he
can seldom isolate an office which is to be spared.  Don't forget:
Jupiter was ignited by having the monoliths suck up its atmosphere
and compress it, increasing the planet's density to the point where
thermonuclear reactions could start.  What place does that leave for
protecting things in Jupiter's neighborhood?  The monoliths are not
the tools for selectivity.

    It seems clear that the aliens *did* compute the ramifications,
which is why they did it.  Where do you get "millions of years"
from?  They have been watching humanity for something like that, but
Europa?  TMA-2 was surely a relay for TMA-1, to let the aliens know
that humanity had left its cradle.  It was not monitoring Europa.
The ignition of Jupiter seems to have been decided relatively
recently.  Besides, no matter how long the contemplation, how were
they to know a couple of inhabited ships would be there at the time
of ignition?  And why would they care, with at least one more
intelligent race to uplift?

> 3) There is something else that no-one has mentioned (or is it in
> the book?).  What happened to SAL?  The only hint of this in the
> movie comes after HAL asks Dr. Chandra, "Will I Dream?".  Dr.
> Chandra replies, "I don't know..."  Does this mean that he lost
> SAL?  Let's have some discussion about this.

   I don't know.  As I recall, the book doesn't say.  It seems
reasonable to assume that SAL awaits Chandra on Earth, having
contributed to his technique for restoring HAL.  Actually, in the
book, Chandra was moving to bigger and better things: even before
entering hibernation for the return journey, he was starting the
design of HAL 10,000.

   Would you believe that, after all that, I've got opinions of my
own to state?  Well, I have, but not now: this has got long enough
already.
                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz
Subject: Re: 2010 (Oh no, not again)
Date: 28 Jan 85 05:25:00 GMT

> ... Consider this- a power that has the ability to create stars
>should also have the power to shield selected objects from being
>annihilated by the event.

Why?  My astrophysical knowledge is lamentably thin, but I can
imagine that there might be a simple way of taking an object like
Jupiter, which is like a star in many respects, and adding mass and
perhaps changing the element ratios a little to kick it over a
threshold and ignite it.  Why would that imply the ability to shield
a fragile object that would be inside the surface of the resulting
star?  The processes involved in the former operation could be very
slow moving (perhaps they'd been assembling mass since the first
monolith was deposited for early man's benefit), the shielding
operation is entirely different -- requiring rapid response and
delicate operations.  The only physical operations we see are on a
fairly gross scale.

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 85 1357-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 26 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:

            Books - Sucharitkul & Female Protagonists &
                    Books That Would Make Good Films & Best SF
            Films - The Black Cauldron & Dune (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 16:25:40 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Sucharitkul

Hi!

The recent traffic about Somtow Sucharitkul prompted me to read some
of his stuff, and it is well worth reading. One query: how is his
name pronounced?

I can think of several variations:

Lastname: su-CHAR-it-kul (the one I've been using)
        such-A-rit-kul
        SUCHA-rit-kul
        su-cha-RIT-kul
        SU-char-it-kul

Firstname: SOME-toe
        some-TAU
        SAHM-toe
        SOAM-tau

and numerous variations or different ones than the above...

Can anyone who knows him, or who knows Thai, enlighten us?

Will

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 85 11:21 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: female protagonists

    I agree that Tiana Highrider was an excellent female character,
a real person with strengths and weaknesses. I would recommend all
three books because the first two are very important to the plot
continuity.  The complete series is called The War of the Wizards,
and it consists of The Demon in the Mirror, The Eyes of Sarsis, and
The Web of the Spider.

    The covers done by Rowena are quite accurate, (though the cover
of TDITM nevers occurs in the book).  The world she inhabits is very
good), somewhat Lankhmaresque (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser), with a
good deal of detail.

------------------------------

From: rochester!stuart@topaz
Subject: SF Books That Would Make Good Films
Date: 25 Jan 85 04:49:12 GMT

Since the "worst" SF movie discussion has gotten a lot of
involvement, and everybody has their favorites for the "best", I
would like to try something different.  I propose we discuss those
SF novels that have *not* been filmed which could be made into
exceptionally good films.

To start things off, I would like to nominate "Neuromancer".  This
is an extremely *visual* book, which is always a good basis for a
film.  We have already seen successful film treatments of a lot of
the kinds of settings in the book.  The grunginess of LA in
"Bladerunner" and the artificial computer landscapes of "Tron" would
serve as good models for the Chiba techno-slums and the "concensual
hallucination" the computer cowboys play in.

There's drugs, violence and the potential for a musical score by a
hot popular band.  These are always selling points.  Most of the
action is *real* action, as opposed to "Dune" (the book) where 80%
of the action is inside somebody's head.  You don't need to be a
computer whiz to follow the plot. (enthuse, enthuse)

Anyway, I'd start babbling here, so I'll stop instead.  This is
*not* the best SF book I've read recently, but it's good, and it
would make a dynamite film.  Alternatives?  Discussion?

Stu Friedberg  {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart  stuart@rochester

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!eder@topaz (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Best SF ever
Date: 22 Jan 85 21:06:26 GMT

>   Dune was rejected 13 times before being published.  Pretty
> amazing for a book that is undisputably the BEST SCIENCE FICTION
> NOVEL EVER WRITTEN (not necessarily the most popular ; the Bible
> still holds that title).
> iddic!brucec

     I dispute your claim.  Nightfall, by Isaac Asimov was voted the
best short story, and the Foundation Trilogy, also by Asimov, the
best longer work.  The vote was by the members of the World SF
Convention.  The only other comparable selection might be if the
Science Fiction Writers Association decided to vote on all time
bests.

     Both groups give annual awards for best work of one year, the
Hugos by the Worldcon, and the Nebulas by SFWA.  I believe Dune won
both, but that's only one year.

Dani Eder /  Boeing  /  ssc-vax!eder  /  Ad Astra! (To the Stars!)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 85 17:41:12 PST (Thu)
Subject: Re: The *Black* Cauldron
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> I suspect that the movie only covers this one book, since it is a
> complete story in itself. I am a bit apprehensive about it,
> though.  I also loved the books, and I would hate to see Disney do
> to them what it did to _Sword and the Stone_..  Lloyd Alexander
> treats his characters intelligently (all right I know T. H. White
> didn't) and I hope Disney gives them the same courtesy.
>
>     Nan
> (if they make Orwen, Orddu, and Orgoch into comic characters I will
>     KILL!)

   How about what Disney did to The Jungle Book and Winnie-the-Pooh?
Hanging would have been too good.
                                Alastair Milne
                                (*no relation* to A. A. Milne)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "DUNE".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Having Dune by Halving Dune
Date: 12 Jan 85 08:42:30 GMT

Save Chani. Paul has got to have some kind of interest other than
power.  Of course if you save Chani the princess should stay also.
On the other hand you have a point about the Emperor. His Highness
was so totally unimpressive that I wouldn't have missed him at all.
(Where in Dune did it say that he was a puppet of the Spacing
Guild?) Following him into the sink are Gurney and Duncan. Their
parts were so miniscule and unimportant that I almost missed
Duncan's last stand (I didn't realize what was going on until after
someone else said "Oh, that was Duncan.")

On the gadget side, the person who thought of the weirding modules
should be executed by them. Slowly. They removed almost all of the
importance of the Fremen; essentially they became convenient warm
bodies for Paul's neat new guns. _Dune_ was essentially about a
battle; at least give the battle some kind of flavor. Ten seconds
could be spent on the Saudaukar to at least give everyone an idea of
why they were so feared.

I don't think we needed to see Paul training on Caladan.
Toss the spice harvester's destruction and rescue of the crew.
Agreed, the Shadout Mapes wasn't necessary.
Good effects when the Guild navigtor moved the 'liner, but totally
    worthless to the plot.
There must be a better way to get background information to the
    audience than the intro they used.
The rain at the end was mindless. Get rid of that scene right away.

In short: less special effects, more character development and plot.

Parting shot: I didn't like the way they handled the sandworms. I
was impressed, but I wanted more. I wanted to see a greater size
difference between run of the mill worms, the worm that Paul rode,
and the worms at the end. I also couldn't stand the dialog. It
sounded like a bad gothic novel. Because of that, and the shortness
of everything, I hated the movie.  I still have hopes that with the
cut material it could be salvaged.

Cheryl Nemeth
All opinions are my own...

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Dune Stillsuits
Date: 13 Jan 85 06:34:49 GMT

Does anyone know what material they used to make the Dune
stillsuits?

Cheryl Nemeth
All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not
necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats.

"Life is a series of rude awakenings"
                                R. V. Winkle

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jan 85 13:14:02 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #17

Stupid voice overs?  I suppose you mean the "thoughts" of the
characters.  The movie would lose with out them.  If you'd read the
book, you'll see that this is Herbert's style.  Try omitting all the
stuff in italics.  It would be silly if the characters conveyed
their thoughts so that everyone else could hear them.

-Ron

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!gs@topaz (Gordon Strong)
Subject: Re: Dune Stillsuits
Date: 15 Jan 85 06:01:59 GMT

Assuming you meant what are the costumes were in the movie and not
the "actual" ones in the book, they were made out of rubber.
Source: "The Making of Dune".  Apparently, quite a few extras passed
out during filming due to wearing these silly costumes in the middle
of the desert in Mexico.  If they one had *real* ones...

Gordon Strong
{decvax!genrad, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gs
GS@MIT-XX

------------------------------

From: sra%oddjob.UChicago.UUCP@topaz (Scott Anderson)
Subject: Re: Dune rumor
Date: 14 Jan 85 09:41:11 GMT

> A persistent rumor informs me that in the original preview
> showings of Dune the film was actually 3.75 hours long and has
> since been cut back to 2.5.

An article I read by Gene Siskel confirms that much of the original
footage was not used, although I don't recall if he gave exact
figures as to the amount which was dropped.  He did say, however,
that the whole thing may end up as a TV mini-series.

                                Scott R. Anderson
                                ihnp4!oddjob

------------------------------

From: iddic!brucec@topaz (Bruce W. Cheney)
Subject: DOON (sic (also sick...but funny))
Date: 14 Jan 85 22:36:57 GMT

  If you have read Dune and seen the movie now you should read the
parody: DOON by Ellis Weiner.  I found it to be hilarious,
especially if the original book is fresh in your mind.

  In it, Pall Agamemnides is suspected of being the "Kumquat
HaagenDasz", the desired result of the Boni Maroni breeding scheme.
The parody has jest within jest within jest.

  Certainly the original Dune was "futuristic", but not by much.
The parallels between oil and melange, Arab (moslem) and fremen,
etc. seem quite obvious now, but from an early 1960's perspective
they were prophetic of events of the next two decades.  For a good
BS session, try comparing Paul to Ayatollah Khomeini, with the Shah
of Iran as the PadiSHAH Emperor SHAdam IV.  How did Herbert know
that was going to happen?  Psycho-history?  pSHAH !!!!

  Dune was rejected 13 times before being published.  Pretty amazing
for a book that is undisputably the BEST SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL EVER
WRITTEN (not necessarily the most popular ; the Bible still holds
that title).

iddic!brucec

------------------------------

From: teklds!larryg@topaz (Larry Gardner)
Subject: Dune
Date: 14 Jan 85 20:41:18 GMT

Is Dune really as gross as I have heard?  I mean blood and gore.

karen alias larryg

------------------------------

From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth)
Subject: What's wrong with Herbert???
Date: 14 Jan 85 17:39:42 GMT

I'm still trying to figure out how Frank Herbert comes off saying
that every scene in the movie Dune is completely faithful to the
book.  One of the stronger examples I can think of is the scene
where the "third stage" guild navigator visits the Emperor and at
the end tells him to take care of the problem or he will be put in
some kind of torture device.  Huh?  Where'd that come from?  In one
of the later books in the trilogy (?) there's even an excerpt from
the Guild training manual that states that the guild is strictly a
parasitic organization that will never have or use power.

BTW, does anybody know whether those silly "wierding modules" were
in the book or not?  I remember the wierding room and that the
Duke's men were receiving some special training on Caladan, but
nothing about modules.

P.S. If you have the time, try (re)reading Dune Messiah and Children
of Dune.  It is interesting how many of the background and/or visual
details that they used in the movie actually came from these books.

Jeff Lewis
{decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!loverso@topaz (John Robert LoVerso)
Subject: Re: Having Dune by Halving Dune
Date: 17 Jan 85 07:17:00 GMT

> Toss the spice harvester's destruction and rescue of the crew.
>        Cheryl Nemeth

I thought one of the more subtle points (but very relevant) was that
Paul's father cared more about the men inside the harvester rather
than the harvester or the spice they had collected.  In the end of
the book (right after the big battle) Paul asks about how much
destruction to the house there was, and somebody (Gurney, i think)
remarks that his father would have cared more about the men lost.
This would seem to be a big lead on into the Jihad that follows and
to the billions killed by it, in _Dune Messiah_.

John Robert LoVerso @ SUNY Buffalo (716-636-3004)
LoVerso%Buffalo@CSNET-RELAY     -or-
..!{watmath|rocksanne}!sunybcs!loverso

------------------------------

From: ea!jejones@topaz
Subject: *Dune* and Monty Python trivia
Date: 5 Jan 85 19:45:00 GMT

Speaking of *Dune*, I was rereading the book to make sure I was up
on all the places where the movie differed from the book, and was
gratified to find that "Galacian Girls," the lay that Gurney Halleck
sang at the beginning of the book, fits well with the song of the
Philosophers of the University of Wallamaroo in the Monty Python
sketch.

Does anyone know whether some enterprising filksinger has added
lyrics to this song, and whether they fit the Philosopher's Song as
well, if they exist?
                                                James Jones

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz
Subject: Re: Having Dune by Halving Dune
Date: 22 Jan 85 03:35:00 GMT

> I thought one of the more subtle points (but very relevant) was
> that Paul's father cared more about the men inside the harvester
> rather than the harvester or the spice they had collected.  In the
> end of the book (right after the big battle) Paul asks about how
> much destruction to the house there was, and somebody (Gurney, i
> think) remarks that his father would have cared more about the men
> lost.

Actually the parallel is even closer.  The exchange comes after the
fremen have captured Gurney's smugglers and their harvester, killing
half the smugglers in the process.  Paul says it's a shame they
couldn't have saved the carrier, too, and Gurney replies that his
father would have said it was a shame they couldn't have saved the
men.

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz
Subject: Re: Having Dune by Halving Dune
Date: 4 Feb 85 05:27:00 GMT

> .... His Highness was so totally unimpressive that I wouldn't have
> missed him at all. (Where in Dune did it say that he was a puppet
> of the Spacing Guild?)

p488, Ace 17261
Paul turned back to look at the Emperor, said: "When they permitted
you to mount your father's throne, it was only on the assurance that
you'd keep the spice flowing.  You've failed them, Majesty.  Do you
know the consequences?"

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 85 1302-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:

      Books - Adams & Asprin & Kuttner & Sucharitkul (2 msgs),
      Films - Perils of Gwendoline & Worst SF Movie (4 msgs),
      Music - Cosmos (3 msgs),
      Television - Terrahawks & The Adolescence of P1 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: uiucdcs!kaufman@topaz
Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories
Date: 23 Jan 85 16:23:00 GMT

Come on!  There's no reason why Marvin must be dead if the series
continues.  After all, he claims he's been sent through time by
Arthur, Ford, & company enough to be quite a few times older than
the universe.  The first three books don't contain enough to justify
this statement, so we can easily conclude that they could have
future meetings with a younger Marvin in forthcoming books.  Maybe
Marvin at several points in his lifespan will be at the same place
and time.  Can you imagine dealing with several Marvins at once?
How depressing!

Ken Kaufman (uiucdcs!kaufman)

------------------------------

From: boris@mit-athena.ARPA (Boris N Goldowsky)
Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author
Date: 27 Jan 85 20:28:51 GMT

The paperback version of Asprin's _Myth_ books are published by the
Donning Co., in Norfolk.  The first two, _Another Fine Myth_ and
_Myth Conceptions_ are illustrated by Polly and Kelly Freas, whereas
_Myth Directions_ and _Hit or Myth_ are illustrated by Phil Foglio.
(I just happened to have them sitting next to my terminal...)
--boris

------------------------------

From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II)
Subject: Re: Re: Drunken Inventor -- Yes, Let's get him back in print!
Date: 24 Jan 85 10:26:48 GMT

rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:
>Sure and I haven't read a Gallagher story in years and years.  I'm
>all for a Kuttner revival.

You sf-lovers readers have no sense of time.  If I'm reading this
stuff right, Henry Kuttner died in 1958.

What I'm reading is the appreciation of C.L.Moore who was one of the
guests of honor at Denvention II, the 1981 World Science Fiction
Convention.  C.L.Moore was married to Kuttner; she collaborated with
him extensively, altho she was a fine writer in her own right as
well.  The Denvention program book describes the output of their
collaboration as "beyond our means to list everything", and limits
itself to 1/2 page of very tiny print of Moore's own works.

Some interesting quotes from Bob Bloch's appreciation:

        "That's when I discovered firsthand just how closely you two
        collaborated--to a point where he'd lave the typewriter and
        you'd take his place, picking up the story exactly where
        he'd left off, and without even exchanging a word about it.
        Partnership?  It was a bloody miracle."

        "Hank's death in 1958 was the end of an era; not just for
        you but for the science fiction field."

I did a four hour shift of "guest of honor escort" for Denvention.
This onerous duty consisted of having breakfast with C.L.Moore, and
escorting her around the art show.  The only hard thing I had to do
was drop her off at an autograph session, and that only because I
was having fun.  So excuse this small outrush of information,
please.

Summary, for those whoforgot why they're reading this:

        1) Henry Kuttner is dead.  No more Gallagher stories.

        2) C.L.Moore, one of the early women SF writers,
           collaborated with him often.  She's now a nice old lady.

Thanks for your patience.

Dick Smith
..ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith

------------------------------

From: rgs@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Robert Stockton)
Subject: Re: Sucharitkul
Date: 27 Jan 85 13:08:09 GMT

I have talked with Somtow on several occasions and heard his name
pronounced quite often and it seems to be consistently pronounced as
   SOAM-tau su-cha-RIT-kul.

On the other hand, I believe he has stated that his last name may
also be pronounced JONES.
                                        -Robert Stockton
Robert Stockton
ARPA: rgs@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA
UUCP: ...!seismo!cmu-cs-k!rgs
      ...!seismo!rgs@CMU-CS-SPICE

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 85 20:37 MST
From: "Ronald B. Harvey" <RHarvey@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul (pronunciation)

Pretty close: SAHM-tau su-cha-RIT-kul

Not a very heavy accent in either case.  He told me that even a Thai
person could not look at his name and decide how to pronounce it.
You have to see it written in the native language in order to do
that.  Also, since Thai is a sing-song language, we can only attempt
to reproduce it...

If you ever catch him at a con, try to go out to dinner with him, or
otherwise spend time with him.  He has many interesting stories to
tell about his life, Thai culture, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Jan 85 15:21:02-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Perils of Gwendoline

I received some copies of the promotional poster for the immediate
theatrical release of "The Perils of Gwendoline".  Here is the text
of the letter that accompanied it.

"The Perils of Gwendoline", a Samuel Goldwyn Company release, is
Just Jaeckin's latest feature-- a fantasy/adventure film inspired by
the infamous comic strip, "The Adventures of Sweet Gwendoline,"
created by John Willie.  Willie began his kinky bondage strip in the
late '40's and completed the last episodes by the mid-'50's.

    Just Jaeckin, well-known for his filmic creation of
"Emmanuelle", as well as his adaptations of "The Story of O" and
"Lady Chatterly's Lover", wrote and directed "Gwendoline".  "We
simply took the basic premise-- a beautiful young girl caught up in
dangerous situations -- and wrote our own story," explains Jaeckin.
"It is nothing but a fantasy, pure and simple."

   But what a fantasy!  This R-raged film ultimately ventures into
an underground kingdom of women never before confronted by the likes
of Indiana Jones or any of his recent carbon copies!  The French
production traveled to exotic locations such as the jungle rivers of
the Phillippine Islands, the desert coast of Morocco near Agadir,
the giant caves of the Bordeaux province in Southwest France, and
finally to the impressive, stylistically- built sets at the
Billancourt Studios in Paris.

   The film stars Tawny Kitaen as the provocative Gwendoline.  The
23-year-old American most recently appeared as the beautiful, but
innocent, fiancee' of Tom Hanks in "Bachelor Party".

   The story's rugged soldier-of-fortune, Willard, is played by
American Brent Huff, an up-and-coming actor who recently completed
the action/adventure "Deadly Warriors", as well as a movie centering
around a tough detective.

   The "Gwendoline" film poster is the creation of one of the
hottest artists in the comics world -- Dave Stevens.  He is
well-known for his period adventure, "The Rocketeer", which has
recently resumed publication by Eclipse Comics, and for his covers
to such comic titles as "Alien Worlds" and "Vanguard Illustrated".

1/11/85

Randy.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 85 10:38:59 PST (Friday)
Subject: Worst SF Movie of All Time
From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

My nomination for one of the worst "SF" movies would have to be
"Robot Monster", circa 1951.  The alien was a guy dressed in a
gorilla suit with a sort of diving helmet type thing on his head.
When he would contact his home planet it was via a standard '50s
style TV set showing someone in a similar costume standing in front
of a curtain with soap bubbles being blown around behind him.  At
the end of the movie, the little boy (think his name was Bobby)
wakes up to find it was all a dream, then he looks out his window
and sees the flying saucer that started his dream coming in.  Best
line: "I am not hu-man, I am ro-man."

/Mary
(Great!  What's a truck?)

------------------------------

From: utcs!jjchew@topaz (John Chew)
Subject: Another bad SF movie
Date: 23 Jan 85 17:50:19 GMT

What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
trying to hide the wires?  And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, marvellous
novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the movie
exactly!

university of toronto computing services:  john j. chew, iii
{decvax,ihnp4,utcsrgv,allegra!utzoo,linus!utzoo}!utcs!jjchew

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 1985  01:30 EST
From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: the truly worst sf movie of all time

        after following all the messages as to the worst sf movie of
all time i find myself mortally confused.

        i always thought that star wars 1, 2, & 3 were the worst sf
movie of all time.
                            shades@mit-oz

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui)
Subject: Re: Bad sf films
Date: 26 Jan 85 18:01:36 GMT

>2) JUST IMAGINE.  Just imagine a science fiction musical.  With
>terrible music.  Atrocious acting.  A ridiculous romance.

Hmm... sounds vaguely like Rocky Horror Picture Show (Hey, Rocky!
Watch my pull an alien out of my hat!)

chuq
From the ministry of silly talks:
Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs

National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on
posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen...

------------------------------

From: rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec)
Subject: Re: Request for theme from COSMOS...
Date: 23 Jan 85 16:44:59 GMT

        The composer is "Vangelis", of synthesizer soundtrack fame.
He also did "Chariots of Fire", some solo albums ("Albedo 0.39",
"China", "Earth", Heaven and Hell", "Spiral") and so on.  The music
from Cosmos *IS* available on an LP, the cover of which matches the
book.
        Curiously enough, parts of the Cosmos theme resemble parts
of Albedo 0.39...

Rich Kulawiec @ Purdue Unix Wombat Group        rsk@purdue-asc.arpa
(decvax,ihnp4,uiucdcs)!pur-ee!rsk.uucp
(decwrl,hplabs,ucbvax)!purdue!rsk.uucp

"First I'm going to bother everybody I meet,
And then I'll probably go home and get drunk."

------------------------------

Subject: The theme music from COSMOS
From: CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (S. C. Colbath)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 1985 12:49 EST

As far as I know, it is available from 2 sources: There is a record
of the original music, plus selections from all over that were
included in the series.  This record is:

              The Music of COSMOS
              RCA Records, 1981

If you simply want the theme music, you can get the record that it
came from - the title is:

              Heaven and Hell
              Vangelis
              RCA Records, 1975

When I first tried to get the above record, I had to order it from
RCA in England, but since then I have seen it on tapes here in the
U.S.

Sean C. Colbath
CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun Jan 27 20:13:09 1985
From: mcb%lll-tis.ARPA@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Cosmos theme
Cc: WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA

The theme for the series COSMOS is from the album "Heaven and Hell"
by Vangelis. According to the jacket, it was recorded in London in
1975 and released as RCA AFL1-5110 later that year.

                                Michael C. Berch
                                mcb@lll-tis.ARPA
                                {akgua,ihnp4,sun}!idi!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 13:49:33 est
From: fischer@ru-opal (Ron Fischer)
Subject: Anderson and Burr's "Terrahawks"

At long last!  The return of Gerry Anderson to children's future
oriented puppet shows.  Can another Captain Scarlet be far behind?

Does anyone on this digest know who Christopher Burr is, and what he
has done previously?  Does anyone know what Gerry Anderson has been
up to lately?

Pardon me if I got ahead of myself.  One of the New York local TV
stations (WPIX channel 11) has picked up "Terrahawks" for the 3pm
afternoon slot.  Its a bad one, I drive the 2 miles it takes to get
home to see the 30 minute show.

From a very few episodes I've picked up that Earth is under attack
by aliens who are using Mars as a base of operations.  The Terrahawk
organization is protecting us.  This sounds like standard fare for
Anderson!  Captain Scarlet had the organization "Spectrum" guarding
us from takeover by the somewhat more ethereal "Mysterons" (who were
native martians).

The effects work in the show is absolutely top notch.  Better
resolution in explosions and model work than Bonanzastar Gahacktica.
The usual Andersonian flying craft, launch from underwater, at the
edge of the atmosphere the ship separates into a (high speed?) craft
and the slower carrier flies back to base.  Much fun.

The puppet technology, I suspect, is derived from something Burr was
doing.  They appear to be operated from underneath (no strings) and
are not the "perfect proportion" puppets used in Captain Scarlet.
Eyes and mouths move nicely though, reminded me of Dark Crystal.

The only drawback is that the show is only 30 minutes long,
introducing severe limitations into their storytelling, and that it
is aimed at a very young audience (the bad guys have interesting
characters, but are more at "fantasy" than "sf").

(ron)

------------------------------

From: hcrvax!jims@topaz (Jim Sullivan)
Subject: Re: movie request
Date: 21 Jan 85 22:26:21 GMT

Yes, the adolescence of P1 was/is a T.V. short (1 hour) shown
recently on PBS' Wonderworks (Monday @ 8:00pm) (i think)

It's about a hack (called Hacker) who writes a Life program, and
then modifies the program to create new programs....actually an
interesting idea.  I enjoyed it, although my girlfriend thought it
was silly.  By the way, it was filmed in Toronto.

Jim Sullivan ..!hcrvax!jims

------------------------------

From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: movie request  (The Adolecence of P1)
Date: 25 Jan 85 04:10:07 GMT

I caught this by accident the other night on PBS.  I can safely say
that it was no more accurate than War Games, was indeed a limp
ripoff of War Games, and was only mildly interesting.  The ending to
me seemed especially lame.  Unless there was something subtle there
I missed.  Anyone else see it?

The master take-over-the-world program was created by the hero
translating the patterns made by a 'game of life' program into
op-codes.  Gimmeabreak!  Do you really think a computer can cause
RS-232 signals to make a conference phone amplifier product human
speach?  Do we really need a computer hero with a name like
'Hacker'?  If you must see this, make sure there is something good
on another channel so you can multiplex during the boring parts.

        Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
        {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz (Herb Chong [DCS])
Subject: Re: Query about The Adolescence of P1
Date: 23 Jan 85 19:19:06 GMT

the person who stated that this show was a takeoff on Wargames is
mistaken.  the show was filmed and edited before Wargames came out.
it's release was delayed for reasons i do not know.

Herb Chong...

I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

UUCP:{decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jan 85 1342-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Jan 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:

      Books - Asprin & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Eddings (2 msgs) &
              Vance & Vinge (2 msgs) & Zelazny,
      Films - Worst SF Movie (2 msgs) & Conquest of Mars,
      Television - Space:1999 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pyuxhh!kurt@topaz (K A Gluck)
Subject: Does anyone have a copy of Myth Directions
Date: 27 Jan 85 18:32:46 GMT

When I posted my original article (after having finished Another
Fine Myth, and Myth Conceptions [ by robert asprin] ) - I was under
the impression that the ACE printing was the only printing.

I know I should have read the printing history.

The responses to my article showed me that there was an earlier
printing of all of the books in the series, and that I need not wait
until June for the next book.

The problem is that I have found and purchased the STARBLAZE-DONNING
copies of;

Hit or Myth
and
Mything Persons,

BUT I CANNOT FIND Myth Directions,anywhere.  Yesterday I called
about 14 book stores (some even in N.Y.C.), and I cant find it.

I really don't want to read Hit or Myth or Mything Persons without
first reading Myth Directions, but my strength is going fast.

I find myself picking them up, looking at the pictures, it is only a
matter of time ....

Please does anyone out there have a copy of Myth directions ?

If you do, could you lend it to me ?

I will read it quickly (no more than 2 days). I will then return it.
Also I Promise to buy a copy of it when it comes out by ACE or if I
can find one by donning.

I mean I wouldn't want my set to be incomplete, I have a cousin whom
I would like to get to read the series.

Send me a message by EMAIL first, (just in case there are 1 million
of you out there) and we will discuss addresses, and return
addresses.  I will pay all postage, but again, write me on unix
FIRST.
                - thanks, (in advance)
        - and , please hurry, I don't think I can last much longer.

Kurt Gluck SPL 1c273a
Bell Communications Research Inc 6 Corporate Place
Piscataway NJ, 08854
ihnp4!pyuxhh!kurt                   (201)-561-7100 x2023

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 85 12:25:19 PST (Friday)
From: Hallgren.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #25

Like Frederick Avolio & Adam Buchsbaums I am fascinated by
Donaldsons' writing.

I heard he planned 12 Covenent books, but this was just hearsay.
Let him rest a couple more years.  The next series might be in a
different LAND, among the "dead", or by Linden Avery or another
character.  Not all the "Barsoom" books featured John Carter as the
main character.

In addition to the six Thomas Covenant books he has done "Daughter
of Regals", a collection of short stories. It includes "Gilden Fire"
which is set in THE LAND and available in a illustrated, hardcopy
addition.

Donaldson has also written two detective novels, "The Man Who Killed
His Brother", and "The Man Who Risked His Partner".  The books are
written under a pen name, Donald Stephenson.  The style still comes
through, and carries you through the books, even if the stories
themselves aren't all that great.  I find myself sympathizing for
his characters more than I usually do with fictional people.  The
first is available in paperback, the second in a larger size type of
paperback.  The protagonists are the same, but aren't perfect heroes
in these two books, any more than in the Covenent series.

Clark H.

------------------------------

From: bgsuvax!schultz@topaz (Steven Schultz)
Subject: Re:  Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
Date: 24 Jan 85 21:35:54 GMT

  I had not heard of Stephen Donaldson stretching the series out
over 15 books.  But, if this is true, I would appreciate any
information on the subject, because my friend and I are Donaldson
fans.
                 Thanks,

                 Steven Schultz
                 bgsuvax!schultz

"It boots nothing to avoid the Despiser's snares"

                       -Lord Mhoram

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 1985  13:07 EST (Sun)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight)
Subject: Castle of Wizardry

        A castle is also a move to protect the King: in this case,
taking Belgarion to the Vale of Aldur where he will be safe while he
learns something of his new powers.

------------------------------

Subject: Eddings Belgariad
From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (M.A. Murphy)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 1985 20:55 EST

    Let me start by saying that I loved the Belgariad!  I eagerly
awaited the publishing of each book in the series since I started
reading the series when there were only two books out.

    This is by no means a comprehensive analysis of the series, but
I do think it may shed some light on the correlation between Chess
and the Belgariad.

    The titles and the story do bear a resemblance to a chess game.
The 'Pawn of Prophecy' is the first book in the series.  Most
opening moves in chess are made with a pawn.  All the pieces
(characters) on a chessboard (in the books) are manipulated without
their control, be they pawn or otherwise.

  The three middle books correspond somewhat to the middle game of
chess.  The Queen is a piece that is used primarily in the middle
and end games of a game of chess (although often by the end game
queens have been traded or lost).  A gambit can occur anywhere in a
game of chess, but they are most common in the middle game where the
battles for position are fought.  Gambits are a ploy to misdirect
the opponent/enemy and are an attempt to make him think he has the
upper hand.  The war which C'Nedra was gathering troops to wage was
not supposed to be an actual war, but just something to keep the
Murgos and Malloreans occupied while Belgarath, Belagarion, et al
journeyed in secrecy to meet Torak.

    Castling is another chess term which also is a form of
misdirection.  One castles in chess to make one's opponent direct
his attack elsewhere on the board.  Castling is rarely done in the
opening game or end game.

   The end game in chess occurs when most of the pieces have been
cleared from the board and only a few key pieces remain.  In cases
where the pieces are rather even, the more the cunning and strategy
of the players is seen.  The player with the greater cunning or
strategy will generally come out on top.

    One might say that the major pieces (kings) of the end game were
the two prophecies about to run into each other head on.  The other
key pieces involved were Torak and Belgarion, Belgarion having
Polgara, Belgarath, Errand, Durnik, C'Nedra, Silk and of course the
Orb as his supporting pieces.

    The prophecies met, embodied in Belgarion and Torak.  And when
they met, they decided there was no need to involve others.  Thus,
the final end game was just between the two of them, Belgarion and
Torak, and each prophecy they carried.  And what an end game it
was...

------------------------------

Date: Sun 27 Jan 85 19:48:54-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Magnus Ridolph

The recent Underwood/Miller hardcover, The Complete Magnus Ridolph,
contains two additional stories.
   Hard-Luck Diggings
   Sanatoris Short-Cut

In their introduction, Vance says that he was trying an experiment
with fast writing.  He has successfully kept them both out of print
for thirty-five years.

I think that the five Demon Prince novels has a lot of the same
flavor as the Magnus Ridolph stories.  I especially like the
counterfeiting and the end of The Face.

Randy.

------------------------------

From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II)
Subject: Re: True Names Re-release
Date: 24 Jan 85 10:38:14 GMT

AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>     Like many readers of sf-lovers, I've been awaiting the
>re-release of Vernor Vinge's "True Names", one of the best novels
>about computers, hackers, and artificial intelligence.  Last night,
>I spoke with Bob Walters, who did the cover and interior art for
>the new edition, and he provided me with the following news:
>     The book, complete with an afterword by Marvin Minsky, was
>scheduled for an October release, and was so announced in
>Publisher's Weekly and other trade magazines.  However, due to
>various foulups at BlueJay Books and/or St. Martin's Press
>(BlueJay's distributor), it was not actually released until late
>December or early January.  Despite this, Jim Frenkel, BlueJay's
>editor- in-chief, did not revise the book's copyright date to read
>1985.
>     Many bookstores, including the major chains such as
>WaldenBooks, Crown, and Dalton's, have a buying policy which
>prohibits the purchasing of "old" releases unless they are either
>proven sellers or specially-ordered by the customers.  "True
>Names", because of its '84 copyright, is considered as "old" even
>though it never reached the shelves...

I remember this as excellent stuff, and I'm surprised that
Walden/Dalton don't remember that it was a stong Hugo contender
(nominated, did not win) in '82.  Then again, what do they know.

Unfortunately, these stories of "...foulups..." only confirm the
rumours that BlueJay's financial backing may not be holding up.  The
word has always been that Frenkel started BlueJay with, shall we
say, less than adequate capitalization.  We'll see.  Meanwhile, if
you like their stuff, go buy it, so they can manage to do more.

Dick Smith
...ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith

------------------------------

From: rochester!stuart@topaz (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: True Names Re-release
Date: 27 Jan 85 04:58:20 GMT

AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>     Many bookstores, including the major chains such as
>WaldenBooks, Crown, and Dalton's, have a buying policy which
>prohibits the purchasing of "old" releases unless they are either
>proven sellers or specially-ordered by the customers.  "True
>Names", because of its '84 copyright, is considered as "old" even
>though it never reached the shelves...

To reassure those who are not inclined to order by mail and
concerned about obtaining a copy of True Names, I walked into a
WaldenBooks this evening and bought one of their 5 or 6 copies of
the book.  I do not think the aforementioned buying policy is going
to be a big problem.

Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester

------------------------------

Date: Sat 26 Jan 85 10:04:11-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #28

Regarding "And call me Conrad..." (the ellipsis was in the original
title):

I am ashamed to say that when writing about "Lord of Light" this gem
slipped my mind.  It was the very first Zelazny I ever read, in a
two-part serialization in F&SF Magazine.  It made me want to read
more of his work; LoL made me an undying fan, one who would put up
with the rapid deterioration in quality from one Amber novel to the
next.  I second the motion: Get this book (published in paper by Ace
as "This Immortal").  Use any means to do so; the uplift will be
worth any minor crises of conscience.

                                                Rich
Alderson@Score, Alderson@Sierra

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie
Date: 26 Jan 85 05:41:19 GMT

jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes:
>What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
>Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
>spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
>trying to hide the wires?  And Alan Dean Foster's ... er,
>marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the
>movie exactly!

Not quite fair, _Dark Star_ was, I believe, a student production and
quite good , that considered.  My favorite moment was when the
audience realized that the back packs on the space suits are muffin
tins, but given the budget that implies they did very well.

BTW, did anyone notice that part of the ending is stolen directly
from a Ray Bradbury story?

Ted Nolan
6536 Brookside Circle
Columbia, SC 29206
...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
...akgua!usceast!ted
allegra!akgua!usceast!ted@UCB-VAX.ARPA (ARPA, maybe)
      ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui)
Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie
Date: 27 Jan 85 02:58:17 GMT

jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes:
>What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
>Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
>spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
>trying to hide the wires?

EEEKKKK! Scoundrel! Cad! Dark Star is a marvelous piece of fluff. It
was really a senior (masters?) project that made it out into the
'real' world.  No budget to worry about, so everything was done with
ingenuity (I LOVED the spacesuits-- silver trashbags, duct tape
(without hamsters), half the kitchen, a few pieces of styrofoam and
a popcorn popper. It's funny. It's not bad, and it actually has a
number of interesting social statements in it (one of my favorite
'beat society in the head films', along with Dr.  Strangelove,
Rollerball, and Boy and His Dog). What's even better is watching
Dark Star a few times, and then going to a theater and watching the
film they did WITH a budget-- I got more than a few funny looks for
guffawing through a screening of Alien, but the in-jokes they tossed
in pointing back at their 'cult' film to keep you going through most
of the movie....

From the ministry of silly talks:               Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs

National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on
posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen...

------------------------------

Date: Sun 27 Jan 85 03:52:01-PST
From: Andrew "Droid" Gideon <GIDEON@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Edison's Conquest of Mars

"Edison's Conquest of Mars" was, as I recall, a sequel to
War_of_the_Worlds.  I recall enjoying it long ago, but I do not
recall where to find it again.

Does anyone out there know it, and/or where it can be found?

                                -Andy Gideon
ARPA:   Gideon@SU-Score
        "My stars, it's full of God!"

------------------------------

Date: 24-Jan-85 22:51 PST
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Maya (Catherine Schell)

Anyone know whatever happened to Catherine Schell?

--Bi\\

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 25 Jan 1985 08:48:21-PST
From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Thomas E. Janzen LMO4-0/B5 DTN
From: 279-5421 ECL logic test)
Subject: maia

Space 1999 Maia changing shapes violating conservation of mass.
Conservation of mass was discarded with modern relativity.  Mass can
become energy.  In fact, I once knew someone like Maia, could do
everything Maia could do, so there.

Tom

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!moore@topaz
Subject: Re: maia
Date: 28 Jan 85 07:53:33 GMT

> From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Thomas E. Janzen LMO4-0/B5 DTN
> 279-5421 ECL logic test)
>
> Conservation of mass was discarded with modern relativity.  Mass
> can become energy.  In fact, I once knew someone like Maia, could
> do everything Maia could do, so there.

    I sure wouldn't want to be around when he/she did it :

% units
464 units; 3569 bytes

you have: pound-c2
you want: megaton tnt
        * 9.769081e+00
        / 1.023638e-01
%

    So Maia would emit the equivalent energy of a 10 megaton
explosion for each pound of mass lost.  Probably even as neutrinos
the flux would lethal.  The things you learn from the 'units'
command ....

        Peter Moore (ucbvax!moore, moore@Berkeley)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 85 1302-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & May & Norton & Best SF &
                      Intelligent Machines & Bluejay Books,
              Films - The Fox and the Hound & Perils of Gwendoline &
                      Worst SF Movies (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.agd@topaz
Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories
Date: 24 Jan 85 20:18:14 GMT

>Bad news: I was at a lecture Adams gave in Berkeley and he said the
>Hitchhiker's series was over. He was working on a movie (with the
>people who did Ghostbusters). Anyone else have information on this?
>
>Cheryl Nemeth

        I recall that after each book of the series was released,
D.A. said that there would definately not be a next book.  For some
reason, I don't think that I would trust his word on whether or not
he puts out a book 5.  I personally hope he does, but I would also
be interested in seeing him do other writing, too.  Unfortunately, I
fear that only time will tell.

Gerrit Huizenga  |  Wombat Group  |  Purdue University User Services
{decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-i!agd
              "Beam me up, Scotty, This planet *SUCKS*!"

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 26 Jan 1985 10:14:10-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Rats live on no evil star)
Subject: Julian May - review by Josh Susser at Xerox

Well, in balance to Josh Susser's review of "Golden Torc", etc., I'd
like to offer an alternate opinion: Yrrch.

Clarke once wrote that in designing a good SF story, you make one
assumption of something incredible, and then construct the rest of
the story from believeable and real elements. In this way, the
reader gets to try one new idea against a backdrop of sanity. In
2001/2010, for example, the "what if" is - what if there is a
shepharding alien intellegence which watches over man?

In Julian May's "Golden Torc" extraviganza, there are too many "what
if's". What if there really are psychic powers? What if there is
time travel? What if there was an alien invasion? What if there were
a galactic coalition of extraterrestrials? What if pigs had wings?
Any one of these assumptions would have made a credible SF story.
Any two or more leaves us in an unsatisfying world of fantasy, where
you can't quite swallow the whole pill.

May is too interested in romantic sub-plots and her character's
emotional responses to the rather ludicrous events of her plot.
Like this: "John was heartbroken when the earth split apart and
swallowed Sally all of a sudden. How would he live without her?
Would he ever see her again?"

I reiterate: Yrrch.
                                        Mark Maxson
                                        VAXworks
MAXSON%VAXWRK.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA           129 Parker St PKO2-1/M21
                                        Maynard, MA  01754

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 85 00:33:29 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Andre Norton's Witch World

     Hi there. I have been going over my collection of Norton, and
have decided to do it up right. I hereby make two requests:

     Is there anyone out there who can give me a Compleat
Bibliography of Andre Norton's Witch World Series?

     Is there anyone out there who can give me a Compleat *INTERNAL*
Chronology of the stories?

     By internal, I mean which story follows which from the point of
view of History of the Witch World. I expect that there will
actually be Three Chronologies, one for each major land: Estcarp,
High Hallack/ the Dales, and Arvon. I have already found three
different stories written at three different times which are
intertwined, and with mild chronological conflicts. I have _The Book
of Andre Norton_, but it is now rather out of date.

     Also: any comments on how her stories of various milieux
intertwine? I believe I have found a S&S series connecting to a SF,
but I am not sure. I have also heard that there are actually TWO
Patrol sets, in different timelines/universes. Any comments??

     Send to me, and I will post to net if desired.

have fun           After the Nuclear War:
/amqueue        "No matter where you glow, there you are."

ARPA:  quint@ru-blue.arpa
UUCP:  ....{allegra,topaz}!ru-blue!quint
USnail:  garf! why bother?
         116 Livingston Ave. Apt 1-K
         New Brunswick, NJ 08901

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (e.leeper)
Subject: Re: Best SF ever
Date: 24 Jan 85 13:23:48 GMT

"Best" is highly subjective.  Just because some group votes
something the best doesn't mean it is.  Look at the people we elect
to public office.

When did "members of the World SF Convention" vote these awards?
The membership is different each year, so this claim is not very
meaningful to begin with.  THE FOUNDATION TRILOGY was voted best
multi-series (trilogy?)  one year, beating out LORD OF THE RINGS!
And I think the "Nightfall" vote you're talking about *was* by SFWA
for the SF HALL OF FAME series of anthologies.

To dispute DUNE's claim on the basis that it was only one year's
vote is to ignore that these other votes were one year only also.

                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 85 16:50:44 -0200
From: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@Berkeley (Eyal mozes)
Subject: Stories about intelligent machines

> I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The
> Adolescence of P1".  Does anyone know anything about it?  The book
> was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net
> and eventually attains consciousness.  It was unusually accurate
> for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames".

"The Adolescence of P-1" is certainly NOT "unusually realistic". It
is devoid of any understanding of Artificial Intelligence, and
presents a wildly impossible story. Thomas Ryan obviously takes the
"brute force" approach to AI - the view that very large amounts of
memory and computational power are a sufficient condition for the
creation of intelligence. This view became obsolete long before the
story was written. Of course, it is better than "Wargames"; that's
not saying much.

If you want a story about a machine which gets out of the control of
its creator and eventually attains consciousness, and if you want
that story to be realistic, even didactic, and at the same time an
interesting, suspenseful story, then obviously the book for you is
James P. Hogan's "The Two Faces of Tomorrow" (Byte's special issue
on Artificial Intelligence, vol. 6 no.  9 september 1981, contained
an article called "Science Fiction's Intelligent Computers", which
was devoted mainly to a review of "The Adolescence of P-1" and "The
Two Faces of Tommorow").

Another, more recent novel about machines attaining consciousness,
which is more speculative but still very realistic, is Hogan's most
recent novel (as far as I know; for someone who wants to keep up
with what's going on in SF, living in Israel can be VERY
frustrating) and, to date, his best: "Code of the Life Maker".

         Minor Spoiler Follows (only spoils first 15 pages)

In "Code of the Life Maker", Hogan takes the "evolutionary" approach
to AI. The story starts with an automated robot-factory spaceship
with bugs in its software (the bugs were caused by radiation from a
nearby supernova) landing on Titan about a million years ago. The
defects in the robots it makes set in motion a Darwinian
evolutionary process (there is a very convincing, detailed
explanation of how this happens) which finally results in the
emergence of intelligence.

Several contributors to SF-Lovers Digest gave very high (and
justified) praise to Forward's "Dragon's Egg" for its hard-core
science. "Code of the Life Maker" also deals with the subject of
humanity's encounter with a different form of life, and is just as
scientifically interesting; unlike Forward's book, however, it has a
plot - a very ingenious and suspenseful one - and deals with
important philosophic issues. (It also has some very childish
political views, but these play such a minor part that they don't
detract from the book at all).

The one trouble with "Code of the Life Maker" is that, like all
other books by Hogan (or Forward), it doesn't have a real
protagonist.  However, in the character which comes closest to being
one, Karl Zambendorf, we can find, for the first time in Hogan's
novels, a good, convincing, interesting character. Let us all hope
that it's not the last time.

        Eyal Mozes

BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

Date: Sun 27 Jan 85 20:04:00-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Bluejay Books

Bluejay Books just appears to be very unprofessional.  First they
advertise books for a specific month, but the book actually appears
months later.  For example, the Man WHo Melted, by Jack Dann is
advertised as 'coming in October', but the book actually showed up
December 21 (in California).  This is typical.

Second, they are reprinting Ellison and Sturgeon in expensive large
format trade paperbacks, ie $7.95 and $8.95 for a reprint.

Third, the books are sometimes deceptive, like the new Phoenix in
the Ashes by Joan Vinge is a collection, but there is no table of
contents or full copyright page.  The expensive reprint of True
Names does not have the original copyright of 1981.

Fourth, they started a program of limited editions, signed and
numbered.  Such books are still listed in the catalog.  But all have
been canceled.

Randy.

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui)
Subject: Re: chug's comment
Date: 26 Jan 85 18:31:09 GMT

larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) writes:
>Please tell me why you thought Fox and the Hound was a flop?

Hmm... where to start???

I won't talk about banal plots-- it was probably no worse than 'The
Rescuers' or 'The Secret of NIHM', two pieces of animation I really
DID enjoy. All three, deep down inside, are the kind of films that
Walt used to make-- good, healthy, family films. I sincerely doubt
that any of them would be films Walt would make today, because he
was never afraid to innovate, but that is a personal opinion.

The big problem with Fox and the Hound os the quality of the
animation.  When it was about half done, Don Bluth had a falling out
with Disney Studios over future directions and company support (he
felt that the Studios were milking Walt's reputation instead of
carrying on his work) and left to form Bluth studios. So did most of
the animation staff. Their result, a few years later, was 'Secret of
NIHM', which was animated the way the classic Disney films were, and
the detail shows.

Those that were left, and other animators that Disney could latch
onto tried to pick up the pieces. Most of them were relative novices
or trained as background artists, not character artists, and would
have trouble staying in the lines if you had them paint a wall. They
did what they could to use the existing cells to up the overall
quality, but if you look at the film, (even more noticable on a
frame by frame basis) the quality is very variable and it really
shows. I wasn't terribly entertained by the thing, or I might not be
nit-picking the technical details to death (I'm not calling 'NIHM'
the best, but I did enjoy it and I did notice their attention to
detail-- it wasn't a product, it was a work of love). Having worked
in the disney corporation and being very close to the magic of
disney for years (as a fan of the films, the works, and the life of
Walt) I may also be over-critical because I see what they've done to
the potentials of the Disney companies since he died. It shows in
the animation (always the flagship of the company). It shows in the
films (Black Hole, for example? -- note that the only two decent
'Disney' films of recent time were Splash and 'Never Cry Wolf' were
not done BY Disney, simply funded by them with no artistic control).
It also, as I found out on a recent visit, is really starting to
show in Disneyland, the place where Walt's magic was really most
noticable-- its gone, an replaced by an aging and second rate
amusement park.

Chuq

From the ministry of silly talks:               Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs

National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on
posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 85 14:22 EST
From: William M. York <York@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Perils of Gwendolline movie
To: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Cc: shepard@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA

>From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
>
>According to the Feb '85 /Comics Journal/, the "Perils of
>Gwendolline" movie /is/ based on the comic, but the bondage has been
>removed.

Last August, in Austin Texas, while waiting for the electrician (or
someone like him) during the setup for AAAI, we found ourselves with
a couple of hours to kill.  Scanning the local paper for a matinee
movie, "The Perils of Gwendoline" looked like the perfect way to
kill them.

Micro-review: Sort of a cross between "Barbarella" and "Raiders of
the Lost Ark".

It's basically a knock-off adventure film, with an attempt to
substitute mild nudity for plot.  The bondage is not completely
removed.  We didn't quite regret spending the $2.00.

------------------------------

From: ccice2!bwm@topaz (Brad Miller)
Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie
Date: 28 Jan 85 18:06:44 GMT

jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes:
>What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
>Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
>spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
>trying to hide the wires?  And Alan Dean Foster's ... er,
>marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the
>movie exactly!

In case you didn't notice, "Dark Star" was a HACK. And a brilliant
one at that.  I particularly liked the scene where the ship the
'dark star' hurtles away from a planet they were bombing (basically
because they had nothing better to do) and stop instantaneously,
ignoring inertia ("I never studied law - B. Bunny).

This hilarious movie should not be missed if you've never seen it.

Brad Miller
...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Jan 85 20:43:42-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Worst SF Film Ever

It seems agreed that "Attack of the Killer Tomatos" is a GOOD SF
film, because it lives up to its pretentions.

In that case, my candidate for the WORST SF film, being the one that
falls furthest short of its pretentions, is

        Alphaville : Jean-Luc Godard, 1965

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 08:28:03-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Re: truly worst sf movie of all time

You forget, Star Wars is not in actuality an original sf story.  In
reality, the story has been used over and over and over and over and
over and over and over... Sorry, got carried away.

Take an old western "boy-meets-girl-loses-girl-battles-BAD-guy-
saves-town- wins-girl" and put it in a sf setting and you have a
public best seller.  Of course it loses a little on the "hardcore"
sf market, but, it makes money, so who cares anyway!!!

Gaylene

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jan 85 1327-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:

          Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & Nourse & Schmitz &
                  Sucharitkul (2 msgs) & Vance & Willis &
                  Zelazny (2 msgs) & Female Protagonists &
                  The Adolescence of P1,
          Television  - The Prisoner (3 msgs) & 
                  Otherworld (2 msgs) & Catherine Schell

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gitpyr!dts@topaz
Subject: the Thomas Covenant books
Date: 24 Jan 85 22:32:30 GMT

alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes:
>He [Donaldson] said he hadn't even planned to do the second
>trilogy, but that the first sold so well and he got so much mail in
>support of them that Del Rey pursuaded him.

I figured as much. I liked the first three very, very much. But I
feel there wasn't three books worth of material in the second
trilogy. It would have been better as a single book. Much better.
Most of the events in _The_Wounded_Land_ and _The_One_Tree_ had
absolutely no bearing on the plot. And most of the words were just
filler, there to take up space. I estimate that, if you leave out
the unnecessary words, he had a book and a half, maybe two, of
actual events. And that could easily have been cut down to a single
book because not that many events actually had a bearing on events
further on. All the traveling around and visiting the ancient
peoples mentioned in the first trilogy could have been left out and
the story wouldn't have suffered. What few dependencies there were
could have been resolved differently.

I won't go into my criticisms of the first Chronicles. They weren't
exactly perfect, but they were good enough in some people's eyes
that Donaldson could take a good idea for a fourth book, blow it up
into a whole trilogy, and sell it. I hope he doesn't write a third
trilogy.  If he does I probably won't read it.

Or put it this way: if _The_Lord_of_the_Rings_ is a fine silk
necktie then the first _Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant_the_
Unbeliever_ is a cotton handkerchief and the second Chronicles is a
bird cage liner.

-- Either Argle-Bargle IV or someone else. --

Danny Sharpe
School of ICS
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts

------------------------------

From: ukma!red@topaz
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 25 Jan 85 17:39:31 GMT

Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the
first three.

As to what I think of the books: GARBAGE! GARBAGE! GARBAGE!

Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense.  The
reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of the
background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign).

                        Gah!
                                Red

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 85 13:36:27-EST (Fri)
From: Susan Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: Nourse

Also, I was very interested in the information that Alan Nourse is Dr.
X.  I own & have read _Intern_ more than once, and have read (years
ago) some of the SF books mentioned here.  I agree that Intern isn't
so shocking these days, especially since so many graphic medical books
have appeared.

                                Sue Tabron <stabron@amc-hq>

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 04:58:02-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: James Schmitz

> From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
> For people wanting more Schmitz, I can suggest a few things I
> haven't seen mentioned on the net yet : _A_Tale_of_Two_Clocks (a
> novel of the Old Galactics and Trigger Argee Unfortunately, there
> is an alternate title for this one which I can't remember ), ...

The alternate title, for a recent (last couple of years) Ace
paperback edition, is LEGACY.

For the record, here is a Schmitz bibliography:

AGENT OF VEGA                   1960    [collection]
A TALE OF TWO CLOCKS            1962
  reprinted as LEGACY
THE UNIVERSE AGAINST HER        1964
A NICE DAY FOR SCREAMING AND
  OTHER TALES OF THE HUB        1965    [collection]
THE WITCHES OF KARRES          1966
THE DEMON BREED                 1968
A PRIDE OF MONSTERS             1970    [collection]
THE LION GAME                   1973
THE TELZEY TOY                  1973    [collection]
THE ETERNAL FRONTIERS           1973

A NICE DAY FOR SCREAMING is the only one that hasn't yet appeared in
paperback. Hardcover copies are rare, and go for ridiculously high
prices (generally around $200-250).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 1985 10:41:27 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Sp ea ki n Gi nT ou nge s

     In response to a recent request, here's how to pronounce Thai
author Somtow Sucharitkul's name:

I.  First name:
    A. First syllable: Sahm
    B. Second syllable: As if you were saying "towel," but dropping
       the last half.
    C.  Accenting:  Slightly stronger on the first syllable.

II.  Last name:
    A.  First Syllable:  Like the name 'Sue'.
    B.  Second Syllable:  Like the first half of "char-broiled"
    C.  Third Syllable: Same as the third person impersonal pronoun
    D.  Final Syllable:  Should rhyme with the word 'seagull'
    E.  Accenting: Heavy stresses are on the first and final
        syllables.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 03:48:38-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Somtow Sucharitkul

Others have already replied, though there is a slight correction
necessary:

It's not        su-cha-RIT-kul
It's            su-ka-RIT-kul

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: dec-miles!chabot@topaz
Subject: Jack Vance's Magnus Ridolph stories
Date: 24 Jan 85 14:05:56 GMT

In 1980, DAW produced a reprint of _The_Many_Worlds_of_Magnus_
Ridolph_.  It contains the stories "The Kokod Warriors", "The
Unspeakable McInch", "The Howling Bounders", "The King of Thieves",
"The Spa of the Stars", "Coup de Grace", "The Sub-standard
Sardines", and "To B or not to C or to D".  This book claims to be
the complete collection of all recorded Magnus Ridolph's cases.
Most of the stories appeared in magazines in the late '40s and early
50's, and were collected into this volume in '66 (according to the
copyrights in my DAW book).

Pardon for not replying sooner, but I no longer find it essential or
viable to maintain a second Vance assortment at work.  This book is
likely out of print, I don't know if there's been a reprint since
1980, so I suggest hunting in your favorite second-hand store.

"I am convinced that virtue is but a reflection of good intent."
L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-miles!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%miles.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: FIRE WATCH by Connie Willis
Date: 28 Jan 85 15:11:44 GMT

                    FIRE WATCH by Connie Willis
                    Bluejay Books, 1985, $14.95.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The collection contains twelve stories--eleven reprints and one
"never-before-published" story.  The Hugo- and Nebula-award-winning
"Fire Watch" is the story of one history student's time travel
project--to the London Blitz.  Well-deserving of its awards, it is
doubtless the best story in the book.  But others are worthy of note
also.  "Lost and Found" and "Daisy, in the Sun" are both strange
apocalyptic tales, though in very different ways.  "All My Darling
Daughters" (the one new story) is a bizarre little piece--it's easy
to see why this may have had difficulty finding a market.  "The
Sidon in the Mirror" was nominated for a Hugo last year and its
alien feel is an interesting juxtaposition to the "just plain folks"
feel of most of Willis's other works.  There is some fluff: "The
Father of the Bride," "And Come from Miles Around," "Mail-Order
Clone," and "Blued Moon."  The last, though fluff, is highly
recommended; it has some of the funniest scenes I've seen in print.
"Samaritan" covers some fairly old ground, though the characters do
hold the reader's interest through it.  "Service for the Burial of
the Dead" and "A Letter from the Clearys" are just average.

     The cover art is striking, and the book is well put together.
Still, the price would indicate that unless you're a real Willis
fan, you might want to wait for a paperback edition.

                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                        ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 07:46:30-MST
From: Richard Kuehn <KUEHN@SANDIA-CAD.ARPA>
Subject: RE: Zelazny and Amber

Zelazny gave a talk in Albuquerque (he lives in Santa Fe) last
winter. He stated that he was currently writing "some more AMBER
novels". This statement elicited resounding cheers from the
audience.

I don't know if he has since published the short story he read to
us; it concerned a home computer that began consciously controlling
its external environment, anticipating the plot to the film
"Electric Dreams" in a pretty charming fashion. The narrator's
oft-repeated refrain was:

        "No one will notice!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 85  9:42:01 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From

To continue the listing of Zelazny's earlier gems, let's also not 
forget ISLE OF THE DEAD Of his novels, I like this and "And Call Me 
Conrad..." best.  The writing is exquisite; the ideas good; the plot 
sound.

Much of Zelazny's earlier short fiction are also real humdingers; e.g.
  "The Doors of his Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" (or something like
that...)
  "A Rose For Ecclesiastes" (still gives me goosebumps to read it)

Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 85  9:42:01 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From

On the "female protogonist" survey, what about Patricia McKillip's 
"RIDDLE OF STARS" trilogy ("The Riddle Master Of Hed", "Heir of Sea 
and Fire", "Harpist In The Wind"), particularly the middle volume.  We
have many very strong women leads here.  This trilogy also happens to
be one of what I consider THE best efforts of the past decade, up
there with ENGINE SUMMER and others I can't think of at the moment.

RITE OF PASSAGE, by Alexei Panshin.

Joanna Russ' Alyx novels (AND CHAOS DIED, PICNIC ON PARADISE) and 
stories (in a collection or two, and scattered)

Leigh Brackett's Jirel of Jhoiry stories (maybe)

Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 85 13:36:27-EST (Fri)
From: Susan Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: P1

I can't stand it!!! All this talk about P1, and I'm pretty sure I read
it, but has anyone mentioned the author?  publishing info?  I haven't
got it now & would love to have it again.

                                Sue Tabron <stabron@amc-hq>

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui)
Subject: the prisoner returns
Date: 27 Jan 85 07:49:20 GMT

The local PBS station, KTEH (54 in San Jose) just announced that
they will be starting a run of the series 'The Prisoner' starting in
March. For all of you in the KTEH viewing area, rejoice and get your
VCR's tuned up. For the rest of you, start yelling at your PBS
stations. The shows ARE available, all they need is some
persuasion... Another reason to support PBS stations.... (*yipee!*)

chuq

From the ministry of silly talks:               Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs

National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on
posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen...

------------------------------

From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle)
Subject: Re: the prisoner returns
Date: 28 Jan 85 17:23:16 GMT

Of course, for all you law abiding Citizens out there who wouldn't
dare Steal a copyrighted program (or don't live within the range of
a friendly PBS station [WHYY Philadelphia was up to "The General"
before Usenix]), you can Buy the episodes at your local Video
Emporium.

Be seeing you.
=== Guy Riddle == AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey ===

------------------------------

From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: the prisoner returns
Date: 28 Jan 85 17:56:00 GMT

Funny, just the other day my date confessed that she thinks she
remembers a tv show from her childhood, something about a giant
beach ball that devours people.  Everyone she's asked about it,
(family, friends) thought she was crazy.  Now, once and for all, she
can see that she wasn't.

        Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
        {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 85 10:36:14 PST (Sun)
Subject: Otherworld
From: Dan Hirschberg <dan@uci-icse>

For those of you who missed the premiere of this TV series on CBS,
don't lose any sleep over it.  This amalgam of Lost In Space and The
Fugitive is aimed at the proverbial 11 year-old.  It relies heavily
on the use of deus ex machina.

A 20th century American family is touring the pyramids with a guide
who leaves them in a tomb-like chamber when they are mysteriously
transported (because of the coincidental alignment of 6 heavenly
bodies) to an "other world" (which may turn out to be the Earth of
the far future, or else how does everyone speak English and use the
English alphabet).  They conveniently run into the one person who
has THE "mastercard" that allows them unlimited access to all
computer, travel, security etc. facilities, and they take it from
him.  He (the military commander) becomes the pursuer of our
fugitives who are lost in time-space.  Later on, our family
conveniently obtains the entire history of the people of this world
(in one largish volume).  They will be going from city to city,
following the eyed pillars that, they are informed, will lead them
to eventually return whence they came.

I viewed this episode without expecting very much.  It was pretty
much what I expected.

------------------------------

From: abnji!jca@topaz (james armstrong)
Subject: Otherworld & Starcrossed
Date: 28 Jan 85 18:26:37 GMT

Anybody actually enjoy Otherworld Saturday night?  I caught it
before Dr. Who, and nearly fell asleep.  Another "Lost in Space..."

I have yet to see Starcrossed, but the adds certainly make it look
like a "Starman" ripoff.  Maybe good science fiction is just
something American television can't do.

JCA

------------------------------

Subject: Catherine Schell
Date: 28 Jan 85 23:00:48 PST (Mon)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

  The last time I saw Catherine Schell was as a Parisian countess in
the Dr. Who episode "City of Death" (*who* names these things?  They
really are a lot better than they sound).

  Funny, I don't seem to recall her as Maia, but then, it has been
awhile.  I do recall approximately what Maia looked like, though,
and she looked much better in Dr. Who.

  What she's done since then, I know not.  This was a Tom Baker
episode, so it's not very recent.
                                        A. Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Jan 85 0946-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:

       Books - Adams & Asprin (2 msgs) & Donaldson (2 msgs) &
               May & Niven & Books to be Movies & Earthblood &
               The Cold Equations,
       Films - Worst SF Movie (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jcjeff@topaz (jeffreys)
Subject: Re: BOOK 5 !!
Date: 29 Jan 85 22:28:56 GMT

> I recall that after each book of the series was released, D.A.
> said that there would definitely not be a next book.  For some
> reason, I don't think that I would trust his word on whether or
> not he puts out a book 5.  I personally hope he does, but I would
> also be interested in seeing him do other writing, too.
> Unfortunately, I fear that only time will tell.
>
>       Gerrit Huizeng

Book 5 ??    I was not aware of a book 4.

I thought that there were three:

Hitchhickers Guide To The Galaxy
The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe
Life, The Universe And Everything

If there is a book 4 PLEASE let me know what it is so I can rush out
and pick up a copy.

ps. The *computer graphic* bits were done as a cartoon. The Beeb
    could not afford to produce the proper article. The BBC (Beeb)
    is not a commercial enterprise and has to get its money by
    mandatory license fees!
                                            --rj--
Bell Labs, Naperville.
My brains the size of a very very small planet.

------------------------------

From: ttds!euren@topaz (Leif Euren)
Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author
Date: 28 Jan 85 14:46:04 GMT

kurt@pyuxhh.UUCP (K A Gluck) writes:
>I have just finished my second book by Robert Asprin and all I can
>say is that it is very very funny.
>
>I have read:  Another fine myth
>           :  Myth conceptions

And be sure to have look at the comic by the same name. Phil Foglio
have made some truly hilarious panels. Published by WaRP Graphics
(the ones with Elfquest, y'know).

Leif Euren      euren@ttds!enea!mcvax

------------------------------

From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz
Subject: Myth-Adventures featuring a pervert
Date: 29 Jan 85 10:02:46 GMT

<That's PERVECT!!!!! %$@@#*&!!>

All five books in Bob Asprin's MYTH series (Another Fine Myth, Myth
Conceptions, Myth Directions, Hit or Myth, and Mything Persons,
respectively) are available in fantastically neat trade paper
editions for $6.95 each from:

                Starblaze Editions
                The Donning Company/Publishers
                5659 Virginia Beach Boulevard
                Norfolk, Virginia  23502
                (804) 461-8090

There are also fancier editions available as well as discounts for
those who are buying complete sets.  I have dealt with Starblaze
before and they were prompt and courteous in getting me the first
two ELFQUEST color volumes.

WaRP Graphics, the publishers of the aforementioned ELFQUEST, also
have a quarterly b&w comic that is serializing the books, each issue
of which is drawn in its entirety by Phil Foglio.  Each book in the
original book series is equal to twelve issues of the comic, and
there is supposed to be original material by Asprin and Foglio
produced for a few issues between each story.  The comic is called
MYTH ADVENTURES! and you should have no trouble getting the four
issues currently out from your local comic shop.

The usual disclaimer applies - as far as I know, I don't have any
relatives or anything working for either of these organizations, in
fact, the people at WaRP Graphics think I'm some sort of weirded-out
freakozoid.
                .rne.
USnail:
Ernie Longmire
311 Don St. SE
Los Lunas NM 87031
UUCP: {purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
  {csu-cs,pur-ee,gatech,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa

------------------------------

From: intelca!cem@topaz (Chuck McManis)
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 28 Jan 85 16:11:06 GMT

I suppose we could always have "The Chronicles of Linden Avery, The
Chosen."  and then the "Second Chronicles ... " Given this
technique, and a final "The Chronicles of every other wimp I could
think up" we could come up with 15 books, I even heard rumors from
the local SF "guru" that Donaldson had finished the first Linden
Avery book. (Lord Foul is like dandruff, he just won't go away! :-))
My question, after reading the first book why did the publisher even
look at a second? They certainly got better as the series progressed
but I still recommend to friends who pick up the series to skip the
first one and start with the second.

--Chuck

{ihnp4,fortune}!dual\
        {qantel,idi}->!intelca!cem
 {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/

------------------------------

From: iuvax!darrow@topaz
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 27 Jan 85 06:16:00 GMT

Not Fifteen???

I made it through the first five, and had to quit.  I've never hated
hating a hero like that before.  I will most likely keep reading the
stories if only for the other characters, but TC...ughh!

dave at IU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85  8:40:07 EST
From: Ronald L. Singleton <rsingle@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Julian May

>Well, in balance to Josh Susser's review of "Golden Torc", etc.,
>I'd like to offer an alternate opinion: Yrrch.

>Clarke once wrote that in designing a good SF story, you make one
>assumption of something incredible, and then construct the rest of
>the story from believeable and real elements. ...

>In Julian May's "Golden Torc" extraviganza (sic), there are too
>many "what if's". What if there really are psychic powers? What if
>there is time travel? What if there was an alien invasion? What if
>there were a galactic coalition of extraterrestrials? What if pigs
>had wings?  Any one of these assumptions would have made a credible
>SF story.  Any two or more leaves us in an unsatisfying world of
>fantasy, where you can't quite swallow the whole pill.

I'd like to insert my answer to Mark Maxson.

You make a good point for some SF "purists" Mark, but for those of
us who read for the entertainment value, any reasonable number of
assumptions (as long as they are not added in later in the story, as
if to explain a weird plot twist) can make a story more enjoyable.
In addition, I consider the GT series more fantasy than SF anyway,
and I will allow for more "what if" in the genre.  The "Myth"
stories are another group in this category. What if there were other
dimensions?  What if some had magic, some had technology and some
had both in varying degrees?  What if Demons and Devils were not
really as bad as superstition says? On and on.  I am currently
enjoying these stories, as I enjoyed the Golden Torc stories a while
back.  There are many other examples, but I would rather keep this
short enough to be left intact if published in the Digest.

NEW SUBJECT: I thouroughly enjoy the SF-LOVERS Digest and have made
a habit of saving many of the pearls printed here for future
shopping lists of books and movies.  Keep 'em coming!!

You can flame me via emsg or the digest, I'm a regular reader.

Ron (rsingle at bbncct)

------------------------------

From: cvl!hsu@topaz (Dave Hsu)
Subject: How about some reviews of Integral Trees?
Date: 28 Jan 85 19:35:23 GMT

Okay guys, so another Niven book has arrived in paperback (along
with some glorious quotes from reviews inside the covers.)

Anyone for reviews? 'fraid I'm not versed in enough other books from
his universe to offer my own comparisons, aside from it being pretty
consistently good, but *gasp* if only it had been longer (not
suggesting that it was particularly short, just that we want
more...)

Dave Hsu ::
        Maryversity of Uniland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
        ARPA: hsu@cvl  CSNET: hsu@cvl
        UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!hsu

Zere vere zwei peanuts valking down ze strasse...
und vun vas assaulted...peanut...
        -early German joke warfare

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Jan 85 10:47:44-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #29

I want "The Armageddon Rag" by George R.R. Martin as a movie.

NOW!

[It combines rock, 60's faded liberalism, terror and great humor.
Think of it as a cross between "Eddie and the Cruisers," "The Big
Chill" and "Carrie."]
                        wz

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: EARTHBLOOD by Keith Laumer
Date: 28 Jan 85 15:11:13 GMT

             EARTHBLOOD by Keith Laumer and Rosel George Brown
                           Bluejay, 1985, $8.95.
                      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Bluejay Books is a relatively new publishing company run by Jim
Frenkel.  It publishes trade paperbacks and hardbacks.  Most of
their line seems to be reprints of older novels, but they also
publish some new fiction.  Frenkel's memory seems better than his
eye for new talent.  I have yet to hear of a good new piece of
fiction that Bluejay has printed, nor a bad reprint.

     You may remember me ranting and raving about Bluejay Books in
the past.  In specific, I ranted against Elizabeth Lynn's THE SILVER
STALLION, which even in my youth I would have hated.  By the time I
was old enough that I would have been able to read THE SILVER
STALLION, I would have been too old to appreciate the sugary story
of toys coming to life.  And I raved about Jack Williamson's DARKER
THAN YOU THINK.  This is a fun fantasy-horror novel with a feel of
the 40's horror films, but which is just as much fun today.  Frenkel
had David G. Klein illustrate it inside and out and at least inside
the illustrations were superb.

     I just recently picked up another Bluejay reprint, EARTHBLOOD
by Keith Laumer and Rosel George Brown.  EARTHBLOOD is a wild space
opera which was written in 1966.  The book follows the adventures of
Roan Cornay, a descendent of Earth stock in a universe in which
Terrans are mistrusted and feared.  Roan was hatched from a valuable
terrestrial strain embryo and grows to youth among the bird-like
gracyls.  The first part of the book borrows a lot of its plotting
from TARZAN OF THE APES, I think.  From there he is kidnapped into a
circus where he hones his skills until the circus is destroyed by
pirates.  Once again kidnapped, he joins the pirates.  The plot
never slows down as we follow Cornay's career.  The plot is comic
book level, but well-written.  Alan Gutierrez illustrates and though
the cover is attractive, the interior illustrations are a bit fast
and sloppy.  Gutierrez is no David Klein.  Still, EARTHBLOOD is a
nice-looking book and the story makes a good evening's read, if a
bit pricey at $8.95.
                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 85 14:07:44+0200
From: Ronen Friedman <friedma%taurus.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Information inquiry - Urgent

        The story - "The Cold Equations", will be included in a new
high-school textbook. Does anybody have some background information
about the author?
        Please respond quickly, as my deadline is in about a week
from now.
                Ronen Friedman
ronen@taurus                            (BITNET)
ronen@taurus.bitnet@berkely             (ARPA)
ronen%taurus.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA         (CSNET)
...!decvax!humus!taurus!ronen           (UUCP)

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **)
Date: 28 Jan 85 20:54:55 GMT

>From: jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew)
>What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
>Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
>spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
>trying to hide the wires?  And Alan Dean Foster's ... er,
>marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the
>movie exactly!

I must protest.  This is one of my favorite films.  The effects were
obviously intentionally what they were and contributed greatly to
the humor of the situation.  Note that most of the effects they
wanted to be good were ok (the laser looked real enough).  The
beach-ball alien and the styrofoam-and-muffin-tin space suits were
obviously intended as gag items.  Ever wonder how they got that
enormous elevator shaft into that small ship?

I didn't know the film had been novelized.  Doesn't strike me as a
good, or even feasible, idea, but I haven't read it yet so I can't
comment with authority.

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI                          If thy CRT offend thee, pluck
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.                 it out and cast it from thee.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **)
Date: 29 Jan 85 17:09:20 GMT

> >From: jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew)
>>What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
>>Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
>>spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
>>trying to hide the wires?  And Alan Dean Foster's ... er,
>>marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the
>>movie exactly!
>
> I must protest.  This is one of my favorite films.  The effects
> were obviously intentionally what they were and contributed
> greatly to the humor of the situation.  Note that most of the
> effects they wanted to be good were ok (the laser looked real
> enough).  The beach-ball alien and the styrofoam-and-muffin-tin
> space suits were obviously intended as gag items.  Ever wonder how
> they got that enormous elevator shaft into that small ship?
>
> I didn't know the film had been novelized.  Doesn't strike me as a
> good, or even feasible, idea, but I haven't read it yet so I can't
> comment with authority.  --

I second -- "Dark Star" was fabulous!  I was under the impression
that Alan Dean Foster's novel came first, but given his penchant for
novelization, I could be wrong.  If it is a novelization, it's
possibly his best, though that is perhaps faint praise.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28,
Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712

-- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
      {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 1985  19:44 EST
From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: utcs!jjchew@TOPAZ.ARPA (John Chew)
Subject: Another bad SF movie (Dark Star)

Not to mention the spacesuit backpacks made out of white-painted TV
dinner trays.  Dark Star served its purpose well, though.  What
other movie has managed to trash so many SF conventions so well
while maintaining a straight face?  And I've never seen a talking
dead character who was so realistically senile ...

Jim
"Seargent Pinback, you are null data."

------------------------------

From: snow!asz@topaz (Alex Zbyslaw)
Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made
Date: 28 Jan 85 14:13:15 GMT

        The worst s-f movie ever made has to be "Plan 9 from Outer
Space". The acting is so appalling its almost as bad as the script.
One of the stars, Bela Lugosi, died during the filming (and I don't
blame him) to be replaced by an actor six inches taller who had to
cover his face with a cloak. Mind you, this film is just so bad, its
funny.
        "Attack of the fifty foot woman", isn't quite bad enough to
be funny so is in many ways worse. "Night of the Lepus" (giant
bunnies) is quite funny and appalling too.

                                        --Alex
"Brain the size of a planet and all I end up doing is sending news
to the net."
                        ... mcvax!ukc!qtlon!flame!ubu!snow!asz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Jan 85 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:

             Books - Card & Forward & Kuttner & Niven,
             Films - Perils of Gwendoline & Edison's Conquest &
                     Worst SF Movies (2 msgs),
             Television - Quark (3 msgs) & Space: 1999 &
                     Otherworld & The Prisoner & 
                     Whovites vs Trekkies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 85 14:00:22 PST (Mon)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: micro-review of ENDER'S GAME, Orson Scott Card

For those who read the short story and wondered upon arrival of the
book ENDER'S GAME how Card could possibly make the book better,
wonder no longer, but do go read the book.  Again, Card has done a
marvelous job.  For those of you who have never read any of Orson
Scott Card's work, DO.  ENDER'S GAME, like THE WORTHING CHRONICLES
(or "The Hot Sleep") is a hard book to put down.  The short story is
filled out very well in the book, and taken futher to a very
satisfying end.

ENDER'S GAME is out in hardback now, for ~$13, and I'd say it's
worth it.  Card is such a good writer that it only just now occured
to me to note that he is the only author I know of who uses a
six-year-old main character convincingly in an adult SF story.

This is good stuff.  Hey, Card, thanks....keep up the good work!!

        S.Schwartzberg          arpa: sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

From: intelca!cem@topaz (Chuck McManis)
Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly)
Date: 28 Jan 85 16:18:01 GMT

Wasn't TFotD published as a three part series in Analog not to long
ago?  (Not to long = ~2yrs) Or was the book made up of the articles?
Seems a lot of multiparters are ending up as books these days
(Witness D. Palmers Emergence) and had thought this was just one
more such. The Analog story concerned the investigation of a
remarkable double planet system with floating intelligent blobs that
lived in a big bubble of water that got moved between planets, etc.
It had a ship called the Dragon Fly, and a christmas bush. Is this
the same story?

--Chuck

{ihnp4,fortune}!dual\
        {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem
 {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Kuttner revival
Date: 29 Jan 85 12:07:36 GMT

> From: wlcrjs!rhesmith (Dick Smith)
> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:
>>Sure and I havent read a Gallegher (sp?) story in years and years.
>>I'm all for a Kuttner revival.
>
> You sf-lovers readers have no sense of time.  If I'm reading this
> stuff right, Henry Kuttner died in 1958.

You miss the point entirely. The idea for a Kuttner "revival" is to
*get his books back in print*, not to get him to write more. Sheesh.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz
Subject: Re: How about some reviews of Integral Trees?
Date: 29 Jan 85 09:35:12 GMT

On Larry Niven's /The Integral Trees/
Publisher: Del Rey, February (!) 1985, 272pp.

Micro-review: Well worth the cover price ($3.50?  I have an old copy
              of DUNE that only cost 95 cents, *sigh*...)

More in-depth review:

/The Integral Trees/ is the latest novel of Larry Niven to become
available in paperback, and it's pretty good.  It is NOT a Known
Space novel, but rather is set in the universe of The State, a/k/a
the LESHY CIRCUIT series.  The only other novel available that's set
in this universe is /A World Out of Time/.

The novel is about, as the rear cover blurb states, "...a fully
fleshed culture of evolved humans who live without real gravity in
the gas torus that revolves about a neutron star."  Due to the lack
of gravity in the environment, the plant life that exists in the
torus is pretty strange.  The most unusual of the types of plant
give the book its name.  An integral tree is a tree that, due to the
winds in the torus (or "smoke ring") grows in the shape of a huge
integral sign.  The humans, who are decended from the mutineers of a
State ship, live in the tufts of green growth at either end of the
tree.

I really enjoyed the book.  It's in Niven's usual style, gets the
story across pretty well, and appears to be scientifically accurate,
(nothing leaps from the pages and graps you by the throat screaming
"THIS CAN'T HAPPEN!  IT VIOLATES EVERY RULE OF PHYSICS KNOWN TO
MAN!").  Niven includes the now-standard list of /Dramatis Personae/
and a Glossary at the end, a nice touch although I only looked at
the cast list once, after putting the book down for a day or so.
Several diagrams are also included which may help some to understand
some of the physical situations in the book.

The introduction to /Limits/, the Niven story collection that came
out at the same time as /Integral Trees/, states that a sequel
(Niven refers to the two books as Siamese Twins) to /Trees/ called
/The Smoke Ring/ will be out sometime after the release in March of
/Footfall/, the latest brick by Niven and Jerry Pournelle.  (Niven
for quality, Pournelle for quantity :-).)

          If you don't like Niven, you will probably not like this
book.
          "Think of it as evolution in action."

        HiHo,
                .rne.
USnail:
Ernie Longmire
311 Don St. SE
Los Lunas NM 87031
UUCP: {purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
  {csu-cs,pur-ee,gatech,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 19:55:29-CST
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Perils of Gwendoline...

  I'm a bit confused by this conversation. Some time last year a
movie called The Perils of Gwendoline in the Land of the Yik Yak
came out.  It didn't go over too well and didn't hang around too
long. Could it be the same movie? A pre-release? Or is it just
something totally different? Anyway...just thought I'd ask...

<From the commercial>
Gwedoline - "I belong to you body and soul..."
Hero - "Oh brother..."

        --Doug Good
        All opinions here are that of me and my computer...

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 18:32:15-PST
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA.#Internet>
Subject: Edison's Conquest

I forgot to mention...I believe the story (book?) was written by one
Garrett P. Serviss.  Or then, I could be totally mistaken.  Maybe
Steven Garrett?

By the way, I forgot the pun which was to be included in my earlier
Edison's message.  Perhaps we should consider it Recalled by Sender.
Or unrecalled, as it were.  Or not.

                        Andy Gideon
                        Gideon@SU-Score.ARPA

P.S.    I just read the outline "Down in Flames" by Larry Niven.
        I was dated 1977.  Did anything ever come of it?

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 23:31:44-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: bad SF movies

     I'm sort of an authority in the subject of bad movies (I'm well
on the way towards acquiring the definitive Edward D. Wood
collection).  Here's my list of bad SF:

 . Plan Nine From Outer Space - the King of bad SF
 . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF
 . Bride of the Monster - Ed Wood does it again
 . Revenge of the Dead - newly-released Ed Wood flick, sequel to
                         Bride of the Monster and Plan Nine
 . Star Trek: The Motion Picture - dull, unoriginal, and stupid!
 . Fire Maidens from Outer Space - you haven't lived if you haven't
                        seen the Fire-Maidens dancing to "Stranger
                        in Paradise"
 . Robot Monster - guy in a monkey suit wearing a diving helmet
 . Battlestar Galactica - remember Cobol, the mother planet of
                        humanity?
 . Buck Rogers - Battlestar regurgitated
 . Superman III - painfully dull, boring, and omnipresent
 . TRON - video games gone beserk
 . Day of the Dolphin - we want to save these???
 . Wargames - public understanding of computers set back 20 years
 . Queen of Outer Space - Zsa Zsa leads a bunch of man-hungry
                        Amazons on Venus
 . Red Planet Mars - God lives on Mars, and beats them nasty Commies
 . The Brain that Wouldn't Die - surgeon keeps decapitated sweetie
                        alive

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985 07:56-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Worst SF Movies

        Certainly up there with the worst would be "TARGET EARTH",
an early 50's space robots attempt to take over Manhattan flick
complete with cardboard robots. I made a better looking costume for
my son last Halloween. Another was "GOG" in which, as I recall, no
one got to see the aliens. They just controlled everything from
their spaceship in orbit...really dumb...the kind of movie that
makes you glad there are commercials.

        What's all this about "The Fox and the Hound"...what's this
got to do with SF? Next we'll be talking about Mary Poppins and her
anti-grav umbrella.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 08:05:17-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: spoofs and/or "trash"

Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone
that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there
remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but
the public just wasn't ready for it!

Gaylene

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash"
Date: 30 Jan 85 05:52:24 GMT

> From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan
>    DTN:523-4523)
> Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone
> that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there
> remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but
> the public just wasn't ready for it!

Hmmm... was this the one that starred Richard Benjamin, and had a
plant named Ficus Panderatis for a navigator?  I remember it, and I
liked it, but I don't know who wrote it.  A good bet would be the
Airplane/Police Squad folks, though ... it had that kind of feel.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28,
Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712

-- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
      {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

From: panda!mjr@topaz (Michael J. Repeta)
Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash"
Date: 30 Jan 85 02:40:34 GMT

>Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone
>that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there
>remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but
>the public just wasn't ready for it!

        If I remember correctly, Quark was about the adventures of a
galactic garbage ship and its crew.  Richard Benjamin played the
captain, and two blonde, buxom, appropriately-clad twins (REAL
twins) played the crew; there was also a very stereotypical robot.
The first episode involved Benjamin coming into possession of "THE
SOURCE" and was not bad; I can't recall any other episodes.  (Quark
was the captain's name.)

        I can't remember who wrote it; I would guess that Mr.
Benjamin was a contributor.
                                Mike Repeta
                                decvax!genrad!panda!mjr
                                G.VARK%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 11:15:31-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #31

>but maybe Maia beams the neutrinos through the top of her head or
>in some non-harmful direction. Or maybe she just converts them to
>tachyons.

What I want to know is who this person was who could do everything
Maia did. Mayebe a few FRP-characters I have encountered could do
the trick, but that is as far as I will go....

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: OTHERWORLD
Date: 29 Jan 85 16:42:54 GMT

                             OTHERWORLD
                   A TV review by Mark R. Leeper

     OTHERWORLD is CBS's current offering for primetime sci-fi.  And
I mean sci-fi, not science fiction.  Through pyramid power and an
alignment of the planets a lovable American family is transported to
the Planet of the Fascists.  The family, led by POLICE SURGEON
veteran Sam Groom, was transported from Egypt to the alien planet
(or parallel universe), but the other world is *very* American.  It
has American language(!), American foods (like corn, American
clothing, even hula hoops.  The aliens have independently even
developed our popular metaphysics, as an alien female talks about
how people have souls.  The planet is divided into regions with
different societies separated by "Forbidden Zones." There is some
possibility there for ideas, but they will probably be lost on the
cutting room floor.  There were some decent jibes at generic food
(perhaps inspired by REPO MAN), but there was little that would make
me want to tune in again.
                                        (Evelyn C. Leeper for)
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: THE PRISONER returns
Date: 29 Jan 85 12:03:13 GMT

> From: nsc!chuqui      (Chuck Von Rospach)
> The local PBS station, KTEH (54 in San Jose) just announced that
> they will be starting a run of the series 'The Prisoner' starting
> in March. For all of you in the KTEH viewing area, rejoice and get
> your VCR's tuned up. For the rest of you, start yelling at your
> PBS stations. The shows ARE available, all they need is some
> persuasion... Another reason to support PBS stations....
> (*yipee!*)

It should also be noted that, according to Patrick McGoohan in a
local interview (he's in Boston doing a play), the entire PRISONER
series will be available on videocassette sometime this year.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 85 14:23:41 PST (Tue)
From: Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>
Subject: Whoites or Trekies?

As we were watching a Dr. Who episode last night, my friend wondered
aloud whether there were more Trekies or more Whoites, since Dr. Who
has been around for a longer span of time than Star Trek.  I told
him I'd post the question to this digest and see what people thought
of the difference in numbers between the fans of each of these
series.  As a more specific question, since Dr. Who is a BBC
produced series, can we assume that it has a greater following in
England than does Star Trek?

Also, I asked a Who question some time ago which went something like
this "I've just seen my first Dr. Who episode and I have only one
question: how does she keep that hat on her head?", to which I
recieved a number of "'She' WHO?!?" replies.  I would like to
comment that while there are indeed a lot of women hanging around
the TARDIS, I have yet to see more than one with a hat balanced
precariously on her head.  (To those of you who responded "How about
a hat pin", thanks, and I'll shut up now...)

        S.Schwartzberg          arpa: sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Feb 85 0949-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:

           Books - Adams & Asprin & Donaldson (2 msgs) &
                   Kuttner & May & New Books & Some Comments &
                   Books for Movies & Bluejay Books &
                   The Sciencs Fiction Book Club,
           Films - 1984,
           Television - American Playhouse SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: reed!purtell@topaz (Elizabeth Purtell)
Subject: Re: So Long, And Thanks ....
Date: 28 Jan 85 23:25:12 GMT

   Interesting set of questions.  I would hazard that the answer to
the question about Trillian and Zaphod is that Hey - Zaphod was a
really cool dude, why shouldn't she want to marry him and have his
children?
   I also sincerely hope that Marvin isn't dead. It would be a shame
to break up a great team like that. Is it really true that there
will be no more? I had heard about the movie, but hadn't heard that
that would mean the end of the books as well.  How sad...

Lady Godiva

------------------------------

From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth)
Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author
Date: 28 Jan 85 20:17:52 GMT

Yep, Robert Asprin is a funny author all right. Trouble is, he
goofed when he changed artists. Kelly Freas did the original
editions of "Another Fine Myth" and "Myth-Conceptions". Phil Folglio
(sp?) did "Myth-Directions" and "Hit or Myth". All of them quite
humorus.

But Kelly is a MUCH better artist.

                                Red

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Jan 85 11:51:56-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #33

Re:  Donaldson's tripe:  NOT EVEN AS A D&D CAMPAIGN!

                                                Rich

------------------------------

From: bgsuvax!schultz@topaz (Steven Schultz)
Subject: RE: TC the unbeliever
Date: 31 Jan 85 16:12:41 GMT

>From cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) Sun Feb  6 01:28:16 206
>My question, after reading the first book why did the publisher
>even look at a second? They certainly got better as the series
>progressed but I still reccomend to friends who pick up the series
>to skip the first one and start with the second.

Sorry, Chuck, but I feel you have made an error in judgement.  The
first book is not as exciting as the second, but, it lays the ground
work and explains what TC is discovering about the land.  For
instance, what hurtloam is, who Lena is, Artarian (sp?) and Trell's
feelings toward TC . . . these are quite important as are the
detailed descriptions of the Land itself.  I would have missed so
much in the following books if I had skipped the first volume.

                        Steve Schultz
                        bgsuvax!schultz

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Re: Here is the plot.  What is the title and author?
Date: 1 Feb 85 01:09:47 GMT

> This is one of the Gallagher stories by Henry Kuttner.  They were
> collected in a book called The Proud Robot.  (The robot started
> out as a bottle opener, he thinks.  He hasn't found a use for it
> and it just stares at itself in mirrors and complains about the
> ugly humans.)
>
> These stories are fun reading.  Gallagher has this habit of making
> promises when he's drunk that he has to face up to when sober,
> while putting on the pretense of knowing exactly what his clients
> want.  He spends great amounts of time just trying to find out
> *what* he promised to build.  And of course, there are the things
> that just show up in his lab that seem to have no useful purpose
> in life....
>                                               -Dragon -- UUCP:
> ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or
> dragon@lll-crg

I agree with all of the above.  The Gallagher stories have also been
re-released, about a year and a half ago, in an English edition
called "The Proud Robot" (the title of the narcissistic robot
story).  Other stories by Henry Kuttner and his wife, C. L. Moore,
both under their own names and together as "Lewis Padgett" are also
well worth reading.  C. L. Moore was the creator of Jirel of Joiry
and Northwest Smith.  As for the latter, forget Stephen King for
horror.  If you want to read something really disturbing, read NW
Smith late some evening or early some morning.  Jirel is almost as
good.  The atmosphere is very dark and *scary*.

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz
Subject: Re: Review: Julian May
Date: 31 Jan 85 16:54:00 GMT

The Many Colored Land series was generally enjoyable, but it was
carried on much too long.  The third and fourth books were something
of a struggle.  The first book was a real pleasure.  Series tend to
go like that, I guess, as the sense of wonder fades, but I think she
had to work too hard to keep the plot alive.

scott preece
gould/csd-urbana
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Jan 85 11:38:09-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: New Phantasia Press

I just received a new flyer from Phantasia Press.

Cuckoo's Egg by C.J. Cherryh
    350 copy signed/numbered/boxed     $40.00
    Trade Edition                      $17.00

The Kif Strike Back  by C.J. Cherryh
    The sequel to Chanur's Venture
    350 copy signed/numbered/boxed    $40.00
    Trade Edition                     $17.00

Coming soon from Phantasia Press, the first hardcover edition of the
Hugo and Nebula Award winning novel, STARTIDE RISING by David Brin.
The first editon of THE UPLIFT WAR, David Brin's sequel to STARTIDE
RISING.  Also, MEDEA: HARLAN'S WORLD by Harlan Ellison (and others)
and more surprises.

Trivia quiz: what was the original title to STARTIDE RISING that was
on the galley proofs?  Hint: look at the mail order book list in the
back of the first printing of STARTIDE.

Randy.    NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Jan 85 11:56:10-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #33

"Riddle of Stars"--well, I read all three of them, so they wern't
quite as bad as Donaldson's stuff...

And Leigh Brackett, though she is as fine a writer as they came in
those days, was NOT the author of Jirel of Joiry.  That honour goes
to the wonderful C. L.  Moore.
                                                Rich

------------------------------

From: ee!hsut@topaz
Subject: More books for Science Fiction Films
Date: 30 Jan 85 01:50:00 GMT

         I've always thought Zelazny's Amber series would make an
excellent movie. There are lots of colorful characters, action,
interesting worlds and great possibilities for special effects. Of
course most of Zelazny's other books would also make great movies;
imagine Isle of the Dead on screen...

         Also, if someone could competently adapt Delany's Nova for
the screen, that would be the ultimate space opera, the thinking
man's Star Wars, the space travel movie to end all space travel
movies....
                                 Bill Hsu
                                 pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1985  09:43 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Leeper on Bluejay Books

>     Bluejay Books is a relatively new publishing company run by
>Jim Frenkel.  It publishes trade paperbacks and hardbacks.  Most of
>their line seems to be reprints of older novels, but they also
>publish some new fiction.  Frenkel's memory seems better than his
>eye for new talent.  I have yet to hear of a good new piece of
>fiction that Bluejay has printed, nor a bad reprint.
>
>from a review by Mark R. Leeper.

I must disagree with part of this statement.  Bluejay has published
"The Door Into Fire" by Diane Duane.  So far, Mark Leeper and I are
(probably) in agreement as this is a reprint, and is very good.
Bluejay has also published "The Door Into Shadow" (also by Diane
Duane).  This is NOT a reprint, it is the sequel to TDIF and the
first (and so far only) edition.  It is BETTER than the first book.
Thus Bluejay has published at least one good new piece of fiction.

Dean F. Sutherland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 85 15:05 CDT
From: lagrone <lagrone%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest

To the readers: I would like your comments and advice about the
Science Fiction Book Club; i.e., quality of selections, value of
service offered, etc.  This is the only book club that I am aware
of.  Are there others?  I am not currently interested in those
organizations offering collector's editions, as I can not afford
them.  I would appreciate any help I can get.

                             ...Regards...David LaGrone
                                  Texas Instruments, McKinney, TX

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: "1984"
Date: 29 Jan 85 08:57:26 GMT

     "1984" can immediately join the ranks of the great horror
movies.  Other films may have made me jump in my seat, but almost
nothing else I have seen was quite as frightening in a deeper sense.
To most of us, particularly those who haven't read the book, "1984"
is a tired and implausible cliche.  The new film version makes it
spring to horrid, terrifying life.  "1984" is a monster movie.  The
monster is the beast hidden inside every form of government, a beast
which not only wants to control man's every act, but even his every
thought.  Some governments have the beast better under control than
others, but none are without it, and this is George Orwell's
warning.  Michael Radford's film version brings the beast out into
the open and shows us its hideous face close up and completely
unmasked.  "1984" is a rare achievement, a film that really can
make you think.

     Orwell's story is so well known that I will only sketch its
outlines.  "1984" is set in a world of perpetual war, where the
government uses two-way screens to monitor its citizens and changes
language and history for its own purpose.  Winston Smith (John
Hurt), a minor official in Oceana's Bureau of History, finds himself
drawn first into thoughtcrime, then into sexcrime.  He and his lover
know they will eventually be caught, but can't help themselves.
Eventually they are caught, and Smith is tortured and reprogrammed
to think correctly.

     Michael Radford, who wrote the screenplay in addition to
directing, has done a superb job of bringing the nightmare world of
"1984" to life.  It is a world of shortages which may be real and
which may be created, of mutable truth whose purpose is to destroy
memory, of betrayal so ubiquitous that its occurrence is expected -
the only possibility for surprise is its source.  "1984" displays a
world intentionally made poor, uncomfortable, dirty, and
treacherous.  Radford and his production team have visualized this
world beautifully.  There is no shining chrome or futuristic
equipment.  The streets resemble London after the Blitz, the
interiors are drab and filthy.  Even the viewing screens are shoddy.
To match the oppressive atmosphere of the sets and lighting, Radford
employs a slow, deliberate pacing which itself promises disaster to
come.

     The performances are excellent.  John Hurt, as has been men-
tioned elsewhere, is almost too perfectly cast as Winston Smith.
Hurt, living up to his name, has practically made an entire film
career based on pain and suffering.  He's played a long line of
sadists, masochists, victims, and villains.  Winston Smith, doomed
from the beginning to torture, humiliation, and a final denial of
self, is so firmly in the pattern that Hurt could have wound up
almost as a caricature.  Hurt underplays the role very nicely,
though, and shows us Smith's moments of happiness which he believes
will make up for the suffering to come.  When the agony proves so
great that he is willing, even eager to deny and betray anything,
the memory of his mistaken belief adds an extra touch of poignancy.
Suzanna Hamilton is also fine as Smith's lover.  Her sensuality is
at sharp contrast to the bleak world around her, so that she seems
to be the only living creature in it.

     "1984" contains Richard Burton's last film role.  It is com-
mon to over praise the final roles of great actors, especially when
posthumous.  There is no such danger here, as Burton cannot be
over praised for this portrayal.  His role as O'Brien, Hurt's
inquisitor, is key to the success of the second half of the film.
Burton was simultaneously the most mythic and most human of actors.
His flaws and his genius were always on full display for all to see.
Thus, his brilliant portrayal of a man dedicated to the abolition of
both humanity and mythology in favor of bland, unquestioning
obedience is particularly disturbing.  If "1984" is a horror film,
then O'Brien is its monster, or at least its monster's avatar.
Burton is absolutely terrifying as a man who will do anything to
force conformity to the system.  The underlying suggestion that this
monster was created by the same process he now employs adds even
more to the terror.  The calm, reasonable, almost sympathetic way he
destroys Winston Smith has the dreadful feel of a routine performed
day in and day out.  I have not seen a better performance this year.

     The last few minutes of "1984" are particularly harrowing.
Radford leads us to the brink of the smallest glimmer of hope, but
leaves us only with maddeningly ambiguous signs.  We want to believe
that all is not desolation, and the possibility that something may
be salvaged is not entirely ruled out, but Radford makes it almost
impossible to believe that Big Brother's triumph is less than
absolute.  The glints of hope which almost certainly are illusory
prove much more devastating than the stygian darkness of utter
despair.

     "1984" is one of the most depressing films I have ever seen.
It is also one of the most perfect.  Perfection is not all in art,
but when coupled with vision, it can lead to works of incredible
power.  "1984" is such a work.  It is not for those who demand "a
good time" from a film, or for those who do not want to think in the
movies, or for those who are satisfied with nothing but a happy
ending.  Those expecting something more from a film, those not
afraid to face up to the true dark side of human behavior (for
governments' evil desires come from within us, not from some mystic
outside force), those willing to face the logical conclusions of
hopeless situations, will appreciate "1984" and perhaps, hopefully,
learn from it.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 30-Jan-85 03:10 PST
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: American Playhouse (PBS)
To: ASD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA, TDIR.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA
To: PAF.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA, PCL2.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA
To: GNOSIS.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA
Cc: JANM.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA, LKW.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA

The general announcement here is that The American Playhouse (PBS)
is showing a sci-fi play this week.  It is called Overdrawn At The
Memory Bank.  I thought I had once heard it was good.  Most material
that the American Playhouse performs is excellent (a personal value
judgement on my part).

The specific message is for SF Bay Area folks.  It will be shown on
KTEH channel 54 on tuesday, february 5th at 9:00 pm.  I believe
there is some other computer-related show that follows
it...something on privacy(?)

--Bi\\

------------------------------

From: uiucdcsb!render@topaz
Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS)
Date: 31 Jan 85 18:09:00 GMT

  A few particulars about the story--it is adapted from a John
Varley short and stars Raul Julia in the leading role.  From the
promos it seems to be very well done and very entertaining.

                    Hal Render
                    University of Illinois

                    {pur-ee, ihnp4} ! uiucdcs ! render
                    render@uiuc.csnet     render@uiuc.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Feb 85 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Norton & Smith,
                 Films - Where the Toys Come From &
                         Worst SF Film (6 msgs),
                 Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  1 Feb 1985 01:40:16-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: Andre Norton's Witch World series

> From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
>     Is there anyone out there who can give me a Compleat
> Bibliography of Andre Norton's Witch World Series?

Well, I haven't read any of them, so I can't claim that the
following list is gospel. I'm basing this on the way the books are
listed in the hardcover edition of 'WARE HAWK. Considering the
relatively random order (by publication) they are listed in, I would
guess that this is an internally chronologically correct list.
        N.B. The last entries in each group are collections which
were not listed in 'WARE HAWK, so I'm not really sure where they
should be listed chronologically. They both seem to have stories set
in both regions, but I've put each under the region that seems to be
predominate.  I'm also not sure that the third "Gryphon" book
belongs where I've put it, but it seemed reasonable to put it with
the other two.

I suppose that I should read these some day.

Estcarp (Eastern Continent)

        WITCH WORLD                     1963
        WEB OF THE WITCH WORLD          1964
        THREE AGAINST THE WITCH WORLD   1965
        WARLOCK OF THE WITCH WORLD      1967
        SORCERESS OF THE WITCH WORLD    1968
        TREY OF SWORDS                  1977    [collection]
        'WARE HAWK                      1983
        SPELL OF THE WITCH WORLD        1972    [collection]

High Hallack (Western Continent)

        HORN CROWN                      1981
        THE CRYSTAL GRYPHON             1972
        GRYPHON IN GLORY                1981
        GRYPHON'S EYRIE                 1984    [with A.C. Crispin]
        YEAR OF THE UNICORN             1965
        ZARSTHOR'S BANE                 1978
        THE JARGOON PARD                1974
        LORE OF THE WITCH WORLD         1980    [collection]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1985  00:50 EST
From: INGRIA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Cc: Michael Eisenberg <DUCK%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: request for information

> From: Michael Eisenberg <DUCK>
> I'm looking for the title and author of a book of SF short stories
> that I saw about 10 years ago... Can anyone out there help?  I
> only read a couple of the stories; both, I think, took place on
> Mars.  One involved some explorers who get trapped in a large
> cavern containing a monster that plucks out the eyes of its
> victims (pretty gruesome, huh?).  Another involves a man who
> (along with a party of others) finds a sort of "ghost town" in
> which the people were killed by weird creatures that enfold
> themselves about the heads of their prey. (Also pretty gruesome.)

The author was Clark Ashton Smith.  The first story is ``The Dweller
in the Depths''; the second, ``The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis''.  The
details are as you describe them and both stories do indeed take
place on Mars.  The collection I have them in is called
@i[Xiccarph], and it was published by Ballantine.  I'm not sure this
particular collection is still in print, but various collections of
Smith's short stories are, so you should be able to find some
collection(s) of his with these stories in them.  Smith was one of
the ``Lovecraft circle'' and four paperback collections of his short
stories were issued by Ballantine between 1970 and 1973, hard on the
heels of their paperback Lovecraft collections.  The other three
were @i[Zothique], @i[Hyberborea], and @i[Poseidonis].  If you like
``The Dweller in the Gulf'', you'll probably also like ``The Weaver
in the Vault'', in @i[Zothique].

> I know this is all rather vague; I'm not even positive about the
> information presented above (it's been a long time). But I do
> remember that the book was terrifically written... Does this ring
> a bell, anyone?

Yes, Smith is an excellent craftsman.  (He also drew and made
sculptures.)  There's something about Smith's stories that really
stick with you.  His universe is probably the most malevolent I've
come across in fiction, but his stories are so hauntingly told, that
their images stay in your memory.

-30-
Bob (``Facilis descensus Avernus'') Ingria

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 10:14:15 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: An Interesting Movie, On Videotape

We turned up an obscure gem in the Children's section of the local
video rental store:

   WHERE THE TOYS COME FROM

This is an animated documentary/entertainment, detailing the quest
of two of those little $1.98 wind-up toys to discover where they
(and all other toys) come from.  They ask their owner (as a child,
they can talk with one another).  They go to the toy museum, the
store, and ultimately, to the factory in Japan.

This is high on charm.  The animation is stop-action or simply
voice-overs to toys doing their normal thing, I suspect.  It's
surprisingly delightful.  The chief animator's father worked for
Disney.  For children of all ages.

This reminded me faintly of Mike Jitlov's Disney/Mickey Mouse short
with all the Mousiana -- except, of course, without the
mind-boggling, sensory overloading attack on the boggled mind.  Are
there any Jitlov tapes being released?

Also: 3 episodes of the Prisoner are being released, on a single
tape.  Wa-hoo!

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 00:12 EST
From: William M. York <York@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Dark Star

> From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
>
>> jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes:
>> What?  A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John
>> Carpenter's "Dark Star"?  An alien mascot made out of a
>> spray-painted beach-ball?  Space effects where they don't bother
>> trying to hide the wires?  And Alan Dean Foster's ... er,
>> marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the
>> movie exactly!
>
> Not quite fair, _Dark Star_ was, I believe, a student production
> and quite good , that considered.  My favorite moment was when the
> audience realized that the back packs on the space suits are
> muffin tins, but given the budget that implies they did very well.

Very well indeed.  Don't let the low-budget sets fool you.  This is
a real movie, played for laughs.  When the spaceship comes to a halt
in 0 time, you KNOW it's a joke, not a mistake.  That alien
beachball had more personality than most of the human actors in
"Just Imagine" (and maybe even "Alien").  One of my favorite scenes
is the review of a video diary kept by one of the crew members,
Pinback.  This very funny 5 minute segment shows the character's
decent into parinoia over the course of the mission, while at the
same time filling the audience in on the events of the past few
years.  Another classic is acting-captain Doolittle's attempts to
teach one of the "smart" bombs phenominology in order to convince it
that its orders to destruct may have no basis in reality.  GO SEE
THIS MOVIE.  ("Contratulations!  You have decided to clean the
elevator!")

Several years ago Dark Star showed up at a local theater in
Cambridge.  Some idiot of a movie critic at the Boston Glob wrote
the whole thing off as a cheap attempt to capitalize on the success
of the big-budget SF movies like Star Wars and Alien.  Unfortunately
for him, Dark Star was made in 1974 or '75.

> BTW, did anyone notice that part of the ending is stolen directly
> from a Ray Bradbury story?

Yes, the story is "Kaleidoscope".  I still have vivid memories of
the emotional impact of the story.

"Benson Arizona, the warm wind through your hair.
My body flies the galixy, my heart longs to be there.
Benson Arizona, same stars up in the sky,
But they looked so much brighter when we shared them, you and I."
        -the theme song from Dark Star

------------------------------

From: ukma!edward@topaz (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Dark Star
Date: 29 Jan 85 23:49:04 GMT

But, but, but......wasn't Dark Star *supposed* to be bad? i.e. a
parody.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 00:38 EST
From: William M. York <York@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Worst SF Movie
To: Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM

> From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman at SWW-WHITE>
>
>> From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss)
>>
>> Ok choices, but the all time worst must be:
>> "Glen or Glenda"         : Bela again, in a touching, shocking,
>>                            revealing look at transvestites.
> Naw, not Bela.  The part of Glen(da) was portrayed by Edward Wood,
> director of this opus as well as Plan 9.

Bela Lugosi was indeed in "Glen or Glenda".  He plays the role of
the "omnicient" narrator of the story.  In one scene we watch him
watching a very low-grade "porn" movie involving mild bondage and
whipping; no explanation.  In another wonderful split-screen effect,
Bela's eyes, which fill the top half of the screen, are overlooking
footage of a buffalo stampede.  Double wow.  His part in G|G is even
more pointless and annoying than that in Plan 9.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 85 09:47:24 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Bad SF Movies - Not Rocky!
From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

>> . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF

Now wait just a minute here Mark.  Rocky is high camp - outrageous
on purpose.  Rocky shouldn't be on a list of bad SF movies for many
of the same reasons that Dark Star is exempt.  (I know, you just
included it on the list so that you could call it the "Queen of bad
SF", right?)

To really be considered one of the "worst" movies of all time, I
think that a movie has to be a) a ridiculously pretentious attempt
at serious movie making, b) a low budget and poorly thought out
attempt to jump on and exploit the "SF market" bandwagon, or c) a
blatant insult to the intelligence of the audience.

If you've only seen Rocky Horror once, go again.  The movie grows on
you after a while.  After about the tenth viewing, when you can sing
all the songs and recite all the lines as well as you can for every
Star Trek episode, you may find that you enjoy it.  Then again, you
may no longer be sane any more.

/Mary  (I've always been pressed slightly off center!)

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  1 Feb 1985 01:51:13-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: The worst sf movies ever made

I'm not sure that I can decide what is *the* worst sf film ever made
--- there are so many of them after all. However a list of nominees
from me would include:

all of the NEUTRON or AZTEC MUMMY films
ATTACK OF THE CRAB MONSTERS
ATTACK OF THE MUSHROOM PEOPLE
CREATURE OF DESTRUCTION <an even worse remake of an already
        terrible film, THE SHE CREATURE>
FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE SPACE MONSTER
HUMANOIDS FROM THE DEEP
MARS NEEDS WOMEN
MISSION STARDUST <the infamous Perry Rhodan movie>
PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE
TREASURE OF THE FOUR CROWNS
ZONTAR, THE THING FROM VENUS <an even worse remake of an
        already terrible film, IT CONQUERED THE WORLD>

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: partain%pisces.DEC@topaz (Chuck Partain, SHR3/E-8, DTN 237-3157 
From:      LOCATION G-23)
Subject: re: the truly worst movies of all times
Date: 31 Jan 85 13:36:54 GMT
To: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA



I REALLY CAN'T BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT ABOUT THE STAR WARS MOVIES.

THEY GROSSED AN UNBELIEVABLE AMMOUNT OF CASH...

Ten million people weren't wrong!!!!!!
                                          chuck partain

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies?
Date: 30 Jan 85 23:44:21 PST (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> As we were watching a Dr. Who episode last night, my friend
> wondered aloud whether there were more Trekies or more Whoites,
> since Dr. Who has been around for a longer span of time than Star
> Trek.  I told him I'd post the question to this digest and see
> what people thought of the difference in numbers between the fans
> of each of these series.  As a more specific question, since Dr.
> Who is a BBC produced series, can we assume that it has a greater
> following in England than does Star Trek?

Hard to say.  I *hope* there are more for Dr. Who (tells you where
my sympathies lie), but given the spread of commerical television
....  I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English.  I think
it's actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision)
divisions, Lionheart.  ITV is Britain's commercial network , though
not nearly so commercial as the North American ones.

Greater popularity in England?  I would expect so, but I don't know.
I do know that there was a paper that used Daleks as a metaphor for
something terrible (my mother saw the headline over somebody's
shoulder), so I assume the influence is widely spread.  (If you
don't know what Daleks are, just ask the net, then open your mailbox
wide).

> Also, I asked a Who question some time ago which went something
> like this "I've just seen my first Dr. Who episode and I have only
> one question: how does she keep that hat on her head?", to which I
> recieved a number of "'She' WHO?!?" replies.  I would like to
> comment that while there are indeed a lot of women hanging around
> the TARDIS, I have yet to see more than one with a hat balanced
> precariously on her head.  (To those of you who responded "How
> about a hat pin", thanks, and I'll shut up now...)

The only one of the Doctor's varied companions I remember who
perched a hat on the back of her head was Romana (more properly
Romanadvaradnalunda (sp?)) in her second generation (she was another
Time Lord, or Time Lady, as the Doctor always said).  The hat had a
very narrow string that went under her chin, and was essentially
invisible unless you were looking for it.  A later episode shows it
hanging by the string from a peg.

I suspect the episode you saw was "City of Death", since that is the
only one I remember where she wore that hat.  It was shot on
location in Paris, with lots of marvellous scenery.  That episode
was also noteable for having both Catherine Schell and John Cleese
(separately; Cleese had a very quick, but very funny cameo toward
the end).  The TARDIS had landed in a Left Bank art gallery, where
it was curiously at home.  NOTE: as I mentioned in a previous
message, DON'T judge these shows by their names.  "City of Death" is
actually very good.
                                Alastair Milne
"How about a quick stagger up the Champs Elysees, and a bite at
Maxim's?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 85 17:26:21 EST
From: Anne Rich <rich@udel-eecis2>
Cc: sonia@aids-unix
Subject: Whoites vs Trekies

From personal experience I would have to guess that there are more
trekies than whoites.  At least in this area, Star Trek episodes are
shown pretty consistently, while Dr. Who comes and goes.

I went to the Dr. Who Convention in Philadelphia last year around
this time, and Tom Baker said that while Dr. Who has a fairly large
following in the U.S., there aren't really any "whoites" in England
- the show evidently isn't really all that big there.

I wish I could answer your question about the female character with
the hat, but, as you've probably gotten from other readers, you'd
have to be more specific.  There have been so many female leads on
Dr. Who over the years - Teegan, Nyssa, Leela, Romana just off the
top of my head.

Anne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Feb 85 1106-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:

            Books - Serviss & White & Zelazny (2 msgs),
            Television - Quark (7 msgs) & Otherworld,
            Miscellaneous - Space Burial & Mailing Address for Boskone

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  1 Feb 1985 02:49:45-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: EDISON'S CONQUEST OF MARS

> From: Andrew "Droid" Gideon <GIDEON@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
> "Edison's Conquest of Mars" was, as I recall, a sequel to
> War_of_the_Worlds.  I recall enjoying it long ago, but I
> do not recall where to find it again.
>
> Does anyone out there know it, and/or where it can be found?

Well, to give you a complete history, Garrett P. Serviss' novel,
EDISON'S CONQUEST OF MARS was originally serialized in THE NEW YORK
EVENING JOURNAL in 1898, within a couple of months of Well's WAR OF
THE WORLDS making its first appearance in the magazine COSMOPOLITAN
(no relation to the current magazine). It remained unpublished in
book form until a small press, Carcosa House (no relation to Karl
Edward Wagner's current publishing outfit), published it in 1947.
        The novel remained out-of-print until it was published in
paperback in abridged form (edited by Forrest J Ackerman) in 1969 by
Powell Books, under the title INVASION OF MARS. Just a few short
years later, Ackerman again reprinted it, this time under the title
PURSUIT TO MARS, as a serial in PERRY RHODAN, when he changed the
RHODAN books into a book-format magazine.
        It appeared in PERRY RHODAN #16-22 (1972-1973). It's my
guess that this is where you first read it. There. Aren't you sorry
now that you asked?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: James White
Date: 30 Jan 85 03:15:10 GMT

>From:  ark!koppe       (Kees Huyser)
>_Star Surgeon_ by James White was published in 1963.
>
>This book is also about extraterrestials in hospitals.
>It is the second in a series of three books, the first
>one titled _Hospital Station_.
>
>The third title I have forgotten, ...

This is the "Sector General" series, which due to some new books is
now comprised of:

HOSPITAL STATION        1962    [collection]
STAR SURGEON            1963
  not to be confused with the Alan Nourse book of the same title
MAJOR OPERATION         1971    [collection]
AMBULANCE SHIP          1979    [collection]
SECTOR GENERAL          1983    [collection]
STAR HEALER             1985    [just released]

Though one might think so, the collection MONSTERS AND MEDICS is
*not* part of the series. There is also one Sector General story in
his collection THE ALIENS AMONG US.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: ccice2!bwm@topaz (Brad Miller)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From
Date: 30 Jan 85 18:20:14 GMT

ddern@bbncch writes:
>To continue the listing of Zelazny's earlier gems, let's also not
>forget
>  ISLE OF THE DEAD Of his novels, I like this and "And Call Me
>Conrad..." best.  The writing is exquisite; the ideas good; the
>plot sound.

>Much of Zelazny's earlier short fiction are also real humdingers;
>e.g.
>  "The Doors of his Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" (or something
>like that...)
>  "A Rose For Ecclesiastes" (still gives me goosebumps to read it)

Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find
"And Call Me Conrad.."  it was more recently published as
"Roadmarks". A must read.

Brad Miller
...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm

------------------------------

From: ihu1j!gek@topaz (glenn kapetansky)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From
Date: 31 Jan 85 15:59:55 GMT

I was just re-reading Z's Creatures of Light and Darkness (for the
umpteenth time; I STILL find new treasures!), and I thought the
following absolution of the "non-theistic, non-sectarian sort" was
worth sharing:

        "Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not
care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for
anything you may have done or failed to do which requires
forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may
be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be
eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask this, whatever
it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a
manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my
capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that
which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the
matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to
receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by
this ceremony.
                        Amen."
glenn kapetansky
"Think of it as evolution in action"
...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek

------------------------------

From: cvl!hsu@topaz (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash"
Date: 30 Jan 85 15:51:36 GMT

> From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan
> DTN:523-4523)
> Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone
> that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there
> remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but
> the public just wasn't ready for it!

Of course we remember. There just isn't enough bizarre Richard
Benjamin stuff floating around to throw any away. Unfortunately,
that was before any of us paid any attention to the credits.  But
for those whose memories need jogging:
      1) Classic title shots featuring something like Intergalactic
         Garbage Disposal Agency ship flying up to and munging trash
         bag
      2) Phicus, the plant/human. (bizarre pollination ritual:
         lie on back, put arms and legs in air, shake slightly while
         making whooping sound)
      3) Plasma creature eating lots of Pluto bits.

NOW do you remember?

=Dave Hsu=    "Aaack...no flames!"  (301) 454-4526
ARPA: hsu@cvl
CSNET: hsu@cvl
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!hsu
Snail Mail: Center for Automation Research Computer Vision Lab
            University of Maryland
            College Park, MD 20742
(Disclaimer: Somebody may or may not refuse responsibility for
anything herein.
 Most everything is a trademark or service mark of somebody, maybe
somebody else)

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb)
Subject: Spoofs, to wit, Quark
Date: 30 Jan 85 20:53:06 GMT

Quark?  Ah, yes, I remember it semi-well.  I actually kind of sort
of enjoyed the show myself.  Who could forget the two beautiful
cloned sisters and a first officer who is actually a plant and has
to "pollenate" every once in a while?

I also don't remember who wrote/directed/produced the show, but I
remember that Richard Benjamin played Quark.

Anybody else out there remember this?  Can you answer these
questions and add some more details of your own?

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1985 at 07:38 EST
From: ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley
Subject: QUARK

>Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone
>that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there
>remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but
>the public just wasn't ready for it!

Ah! My all-time favorite SF show.  If I remember properly, Quark was
one Captain in a space fleet, headed by an alien named "The Head".
There were several other space captains and various ships, but each
time they returned to base for orders, Captain Quark was given the
Space Garbage Truck.  It was always amusing, seeing his ship
approach a great starship, and pick up one tremendous "Space
Baggie"....

All of the characters were good:
   The Head (all you saw was a tremendous head)
   The Head's Assistant, Palindrone (?sp)
   Captain Quark (Richard Benjamin)
   Ficus (Quark's first officer, a plant reminding me of Spock)
   Two female twins (can't recall what they actually did)
   A half male/half female (played by an effeminate male)
     and a few others (well, it's been a long time)

Oh, and there were alien baddies, of course. I don't think Quark
picked up their garbage.

Does anyone know where videos of the pilot(s) and/or episodes could
be found? I've been trying the local video store regularly, and they
think I'm insane (excuse me, can you order Quark for me...)

-Alan
"He's dead, Jim."  Quick, which episode?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 85 09:31 EST
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #35

Quark was one of my favorite shows, although I knew that it would
not last even as long as it did.  Another of my favorites was "When
things Were Rotten" a Robin Hood spoof with Dick Gauteay (sp) (Himie
from Get Smart) as Robin and Dick Van Patten (dad in 8 Is Enough) as
Friar John.

Anyway, Quark was the show about Adam Quark, commander, United
Galaxy Sanitation Patrol, mission: To Clean up all the trash in the
Milky Way (trash as in garbage, but the end up disposing of some
nasties along the way).  The ship's mascot was Ergo, which was an
alien pet that was very hungary and always tried to eat Quark.  The
robot was named Andy and was put together by the pilot episode's
scientist, the eminate scientist Dr.  O.  B.  Mudd, who lost an eye
some years ago when he fell asleep while looking into his
microscope.  In the short lived series, Mudd was replaced as stated
in previous msgs by a plant being.  The chief engineer, Gene/Jean is
both sexes.  And of course, my favorites, the second in command are
the Bettys, one of which is a clone, if only we knew which one...

The first show was a special hour long double episode about when
Quark finds/gets/saves THE SOURCE.  But I had seen (and recorded
Audio only) and had all but forgotten the pilot that was shown about
a year previously.  This pilot was used to end the series.  In it,
we see The Head, Quark's boss, which is a huge head (I have a
headache the size of a supernova...)  and Palendrome was The Head's
aide (played by Mindy's dad in Mork).

It was a great SF TV show, a lot of gags, site jokes, and all around
fun.  The pilot opens with a big, intense scene where the ship gets
behind a massive other ship and grabs an ejected massive garbage
baggy.

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

From: ihuxo!dpa@topaz (Dave Allen)
Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark
Date: 31 Jan 85 15:11:41 GMT

As I remember, Quark aired about 4 or five years ago and there were
only 4 episodes.  I enjoyed it while it lasted.  Besides Quark, the
captain, the second in command was the "plant" being whose name was
something like Ficus which is a Latin work having to do with plants.
I can't remember the twins names, but I believe they were clones.
The other member of the crew was another alien who kept changing
gender and was called Gene/Jean.

Thier ship was an interplanetary garbage truck and they went around
collecting space baggies.  Can't seem to remember any of the plots.
Probably just as well.

Dave Allen      ihuxo!dpa
AT&T Bell Labs  Rm: IH 4A-409   Tel:(312) 979-(4378)

------------------------------

From: bgsuvax!schultz@topaz (Steven Schultz)
Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark
Date: 31 Jan 85 16:33:11 GMT

I remember the guy who played the part of the plant wearing a
pressure guage in his ear to monitor his "turgor pressure."  He was
also caught "pollinating" with the daughter of a visiting ship's
captain (I think) and she wound up getting blasted with a gun that
changed her into a pillar of stone (the fateful blast was aimed at
the plant-man).  It was a good spoof.

            Steve Schultz
            bgsuvax!schultz

------------------------------

From: watrose!vljohnson@topaz (Lee Johnson)
Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark
Date: 31 Jan 85 07:34:29 GMT

I only saw the show a couple of times, but I remember the
pollination sequence quite well.  The first officer (the "Vegeton")
and a woman (I don't remember, but she was probably a Vegeton, too)
were lying on the floor, side by side, with their arms and legs
sticking straight into the air.  Both were making beeping or peeping
noises.  Really quite silly.

Gee, and I almost thought the show was a figment of my imagination!

Regards,
Lee Johnson

------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: OTHERWORLD
Date: 29 Jan 85 03:24:39 GMT

I haven't seen any comments on the new TV series OTHERWORLD here.  I
saw the first episode rather by accident (I was trolling for
something to watch without benefit of a tv guide) and I missed the
first five minutes.

To summarize briefly (is that redundant???), a family somehow (the
first five minutes, remember?) on vacation in Egypt enters a pyramid
and comes out on another earth-like world ("Toto, something tells me
we're not in Kansas anymore.") with evil army-types and androids.

I cannot tell whether I will like the series, although I enjoyed the
first episode.  (And no, their names are not the Robinsons and no,
there is not a robot yelling "Warning!  Warning!  Danger
approaching!")

Anyone else see it?

Fred Avolio
301/731-4100 x4227
UUCP:  {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio
ARPA:  grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: Space Burial
Date: 29 Jan 85 15:33:45 GMT

The latest venture of Space Services, Inc. (owner of the Conestoga
rockets) is

                        ***Space Burial***

Yes, you can be buried in space!  Just have someone send your
cremated remains ("cremains," as they were called in the news story
on NPR this morning) to SSI (not to be confused with the
Princeton-based Space Studies Institute, also called SSI), and they
will further reduce them to fit into a capsule approximately 1" by
1-1/4" which will be inscribed with your name, social security
number, and (optional) religious symbol of your choice.  Then a
capsule containing several thousand of these will be placed into low
earth orbit (through the Van Allen Belt, which has very little
satellite traffic).

Oh, yes--the nosecone will be reflective so that your loved ones
can, with the aid of a telescope, watch your remains cruise through
the sky.

(The cost of all this is $3900, which SSI claims is not much more
than an earth-based funeral.  Of course, there's the cost of
cremation on top of that, and the telescope,...)

This brings a whole new meaning to the hymn, "Nearer, My God, to
Thee"!
                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985 12:12:41-PST
From: mccutchen%grdian.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ann McCutchen    DTN
From: 8-283-7422)
Subject: Mailing address for Boskone

   One of my coworkers showed me an SFL message requesting an
electronic mail address for someone involved with Boskone.  That's
me (among others).  People may send me mail at Digital, address
GRDIAN::MCCUTCHEN.  I will read and respond to my mail until 5:00
P.M. on Tuesday, February 12th.  After I return from the con, I will
forward or relay any messages to the approriate parties, including
suggestions for next year.
                                -- Ann Broomhead (McCutchen)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Feb 85 2344-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 3 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:

           Books - Dewdney & Gregorian & Niven (2 msgs) &
                   Orwell & Smith & Williams & 
                   Zelazny (3 msgs) & Bluejay Books,
           Films - The Worst SF Film (5 msgs) & 
                   The Best SF Film & 2010

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 85 11:33 CST
From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: A.K. Dewdney on the net?
To: human-nets@RUTGERS.ARPA

Does anyone know if there is a net address for Alexander K.
Dewdney, author of "Planiverse?" He is a CS Professor at the U of
Western Ontario.

-- Earl (Boebert -at HI-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 85 22:27:05 EST
From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: What ever happened to Joyce Ballou Gregorian?

Ace published two of her books, "The Borken Citadel" and its sequel,
"Castledown".  The blurb in the back of the first book said she was
writing a third book, but the second makes no mention of it.  Did
she ever write it?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 85 11:29 PST
From: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: The Integral Trees

/The Integral Trees/ , Larry Niven
Del Rey books, SF Book Club edition, copyright 1983
212 pages.

Hmm ... Evidently I liked the book less than some others of us in
netland.

                   *****  SPOILER WARNING  ******

        As has already been mentioned, /The Integral Trees/ is set
in the universe of The State, a far future political organization
reminiscent in some ways of Orwell. In The State, there are two
types of people, citizens and corpsicles. Corpsicles are people who
have put themselves in suspended animation in the hopes that
whatever terminal disease they had would one day be curable. When
they are awakened by The State, however, their minds are transferred
to the bodies of brainwiped convicted enemies of The State and they
are used by The State as slave labor. Their old bodies are disposed
of. As has also already been mentioned, The State is the setting of
at least one other Niven novel (/A World Out of Time/), and possibly
some short stories, though I don't recall ever having seen any. The
universe of The State is *not* the same as his 'Leshy Circuit'
milieu.

        As is the case for most Niven writing, I was absorbed enough
by it to read it through in one sitting. However, I was not terribly
enthusiastic about it afterwards.  Niven can always be counted on to
construct a believable backdrop and a fairly involved and readable
plot.  In this case, the action takes place in a zero-g environment,
on the surface of "trees" from which the book takes its title. The
ends of these otherwise bare trees are shrouded in tufts of foliage,
and some semblance of 'gravity' is provided by the tidal forces
operating on the trees as they circle a neutron star. Most of the
trees are in the center of a gas torus around this star, called the
'smoke ring'. One of these trees is pulled out of the green pastures
of the center of the smoke ring, breaks up, and the survivors of the
breakup then try to find a new tree to settle on.

        This being the action in the first third of the book, I'll
stop with the details and put in my two cents. First, I'm happy to
say that the influence of The State in the book is limited to an
artifact or two and the custom of forcibly acquiring slave labor.
The State is too obvious a bad guy for me to get worked up rooting
against. Second, I am less happy to say that the book is a
bare-bones skim through what could have otherwise been a detailed
and much more enjoyable story. The book is simply not long enough,
and has little if any secondary action.  Subplotting is minimal.
News that a second book set in the smoke ring will be out soon is
heartening. Third, well ... I'm getting a little too used to Niven's
style. I half expect each new Niven offering to be up to the
standards of "Inconstant Moon" , "Neutron Star", and any one of a
number of his other 'Known Space' short stories, and even some of
his novels set in that same universe, /Protector/ and /Ringworld/
high on the list. For this reason, I expect this review to be taken
with a grain of salt for those who have not read as much Niven as I,
and I'd kind of like to hear what other active Niven readers think
of the book.

        If you're madly in love with Niven, you'll probably hate my
guts.
                                                        --- JohnnyT

"Things were never more like they used to be than they are now."

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Feb 85 16:03:28-PST
From: Andrew "Droid" Gideon
Subject: Integral_Trees
Reply-to: A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA

I read this when it first came out in hard bound.  I am a dedicated
Niven fan, and very impatient. Nowadays, I rarely wait for the
paperback version of ANYTHING (nowadays being out of college, and
having money).

Unfortunately, I must comment about Integral_ Trees that while I DID
enjoy it a good deal, it was not up to the usual Niven story.  The
characters were not solving a puzzle, or dealing with any
difficulty.  Rather, they were tossed about on the winds of fate,
and given almost no control of their destiny.  The story was mainly
an exploration of the Smoke Ring, showing the reading how diverse
and fascinating this place is.

So, while I highly recommend it (as I said, it is great fun...it
truly is a strange new world the reader gets to see), I do not feel
that it is up to the standards set by other works from Niven.  I
hope that the sequel presents a more interesting 'story', now that
the world has been at least partially explored.

Query:  What is this new collection of short stories from Niven?
        Are these new stories?

                                -Andy Gideon
                                 Gideon@SU-Score.ARPA

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is obsolete"

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 13:36:22-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: 1984

You know, it's odd how many people think of "1984" as prophecy -
failed or otherwise.

The working title of the book was "1948" (the year it was written),
because Orwell felt that he was writing about what he saw in the
world around him. The name was changed by his publishers to make the
book sell.

Now that we know about the Gulag, there's a certain new edge to the
idea of "thoughtcrime".  Say - does the Bureau of Network Security
read this BBoard ?

Don Lindsay                             Lindsa%Tartan.Arpa

------------------------------

From: ee!hsut@topaz
Subject: Re: request for information
Date: 1 Feb 85 15:56:00 GMT

          I've seen some recent reissues of Clark Ashton Smith's
stuff, but haven't look at them for publisher, titles etc. since I
have all (sorry, most) of Smith's story collections at home in
Granada paperbacks with lovely covers. Couldn't resist posting a
response; I didn't think anybody read C.A. Smith anymore but us
eccentrics who survived morbid childhoods...

          Seriously though, I really enjoyed Smith's Averoigne
stories for the tongue-in-cheek humor and sneaky references to
Lovecraft.  "The Dark Eidolon" is a very entertaining pastiche of
Beckford's Vathek and Arabian Nights type fiction. Mail me something
for further info...
                                  Bill Hsu
                                  pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 85 22:43:47 EST
From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: "Knight Moves" by Walter Jon Williams

I just finished "Knight Moves" by Walter Jon Williams, published by
Tor.  It was a very good read.  The style, as George R. R. Martin
says in his blurb, is more than a little like early Zelazny.  The
cover's not bad, either.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 13:25:17-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: Zelazny

> Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find
> "And Call Me Conrad.."  it was more recently published as
> "Roadmarks". A must read.

Actually, Roadmarks is a different book (Copyright 1979). It's OK,
and fun, and Zelazny. The plot is weak, the writing good, and the
central idea excellent: there is a Road through time, and the first
chapter leaves us heading for Babylon. (That's chapter 2, actually -
chapters are numbered 2 1 2 1 ... ).

"This Immortal" (Copyright 1966) is better - a classic.  Konstantin
Kallikanzaros is Commissioner of Arts, Monuments and Archives, and
he isn't, um, usual.  But he fits his still-radioactive world.  READ
THIS BOOK.

"Doorways in the Sand" (Copyright 1976) is the perfect compromise: a
well- plotted romp: a great introduction to SF: LEND THIS BOOK.
        "When in doubt invoke tradition and improvise."

Don Lindsay                                     Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa

Quark: What are you doing?   Ficus:  Waiting For The Bee.

------------------------------

From: kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From
Date: 2 Feb 85 19:24:41 GMT

> BTW: For those of you trying to find "And Call Me Conrad.."  it
> was more recently published as "Roadmarks". A must read.

The alternate title for "...And Call Me Conrad" is "This Immortal".
"Roadmarks" centers around a road that goes through Time and
includes brief appearances by Jack the Ripper and (if I recall
correctly) Adolf Hitler (have I got you curious now?).  Pick it up
when you get your copy of "This Immortal".

Mike Kupfer
kupfer@Berkeley
...!ucbvax!kupfer
"He says, 'Thank you very much, but you can have the bottle back.'"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 1985  16:44 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #38

>Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find
>"And Call Me Conrad.."  it was more recently published as
>"Roadmarks". A must read.
>
>Brad Miller ...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm

"Roadmarks" and "And Call Me Conrad..." are completely unconnected.
ACMC is definitely the better of the two, but "Roadmarks" is worth a
read.

Dean F. Sutherland
Sutherland@Tartan.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ahuta!mrl@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Leeper on Bluejay Books
Date: 2 Feb 85 18:41:39 GMT

>>     Bluejay Books is a relatively new publishing company run by
>>Jim Frenkel.  It publishes trade paperbacks and hardbacks.  Most
>>of their line seems to be reprints of older novels, but they also
>>publish some new fiction.  Frenkel's memory seems better than his
>>eye for new talent.  I have yet to hear of a good new piece of
>>fiction that Bluejay has printed, nor a bad reprint.
>from a review by Mark R. Leeper.
>
>I must disagree with part of this statement.

Are you accusing me of having heard that DOOR was good and then
lying about it? :-) I really had not heard that DOOR INTO FIRE was
good, but I have now.  Thanx.

                    Mark (now officially on the net) Leeper

------------------------------

From: homxa!aar@topaz (A.RAPPE)
Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made
Date: 1 Feb 85 17:21:51 GMT

You forgot:

IT CONQUERED THE WORLD
THE FLESH EATERS
DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS
ETC....ETC...

ps: I thought CRAB MONSTERS was very "gripping"(Martha...help
me...meet me by the pit...snip snip..)

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **)
Date: 1 Feb 85 18:42:28 GMT
Reply-to: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach)

>Ever wonder how they got that enormous elevator shaft into that
>small ship?

Better yet, look closely at the size of the bombs vs. the size of
the ship, and try to figure out where they stored 20 of those
things. (Ye Gads, Dark star was a tardis! They're time lords!)

chuq
From the ministry of silly talks:               Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

Life, the Universe, and lots of other stuff is a trademark of AT&T
Bell Labs

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb)
Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made
Date: 1 Feb 85 13:51:16 GMT

Lest we forget...

        "Canadian Mounties versus Atomic Monsters"
        "The Brain Eaters"

...should also be on this list.

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 12:05:34-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Glen or Glenda/Rocky Horror Picture Show

     I excluded "Glen or Glenda" (also called: "I Changed My Sex",
"He or She") because I didn't consider it SF.

     I have seen Rocky Horror Picture Show more often than most of
the people on this list.  I lost count after a hundred or so very
early in my RHPS career.  For a few years, I played "Riff-Raff" in a
local group which did the stage show simultaneously with the movie
-- this ended only with the closing of the theatre.

     RHPS has a special place in my heart, but still it must be
considered bad SF.  There are several glaring flaws of continuity;
anybody who actually tries to ACT the parts will quickly notice how
characters make major shifts in their positions without any
explanation, not to mention a major cut to a scene some minutes
earlier when Rocky is about to come to life.  Several of the effects
are flawed -- what about the wires pulling Dr. Scott's wheelchair up
the stairs?  Many of the flaws make for great shouts, such as the
observation that Janet never took her panty hose off in spite of
several sexual escapades.

------------------------------

From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made
Date: 2 Feb 85 00:57:58 GMT
Reply-to: berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval)

boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) writes:
>I'm not sure that I can decide what is *the* worst sf film ever
>made --- there are so many of them after all. However a list of
>nominees from me would include:
<Here follows an impressive list of garbage...>

How about TEENAGERS FROM OUTER SPACE, and their wonderful 'pets' the
Gargons?  Really, now, 200 foot long crayfish???


Berry Kercheval     Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900

------------------------------

From: ukc!lkt@topaz (L.K.Turner)
Subject: Best SF movie : A USENET Poll
Date: 1 Feb 85 16:59:12 GMT
Reply-to: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner)

  There has been a lot of disscusion about the worst SF movie ever
produced.  I would be interested to find out what you think is the
*Best* SF movie ever produced.

  I would like to poll the views of all you out in net land, with
the aim of summarising the results, to find out what the collective
view on this is.

  So if you are interested send your votes to me via mail to :-

  ...mcvax!ukc!lkt
  == L.K.T
  UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt  ( L.K.Turner)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the movie "2010".  People who have not yet seen the movie may wish
to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann)
Subject: Re: 2010 (Oh no, not again)
Date: 29 Jan 85 21:58:11 GMT

     Perhaps I don't understand the full ramifications of Jupiter's
becoming a star, but I can't see it having much of an effect on
Earth (catrastrophically speaking that is). It seems to me that it
would be a very small, cool star (Otherwise, how could life be
supported on its former moons?) The energy from it that would reach
earth wouldn't be all that tremendous, so why would the earth have
to be protected?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Feb 85 0010-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:

        Books - Forward (2 msgs) & Lem & New Book Releases,
        Television - Dr. Who (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  2 Feb 1985 19:03:33-PST
From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
Subject: The Flight of the Dragonfly

Forward's THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY was published as a three-part
serial in the December 1982-February 1983 issues of Analog.  Chuck
McManis (intelca!cem@topaz) describes the story accurately in V10
#35.  However, the intelligent creatures living in Eau's oceans were
careful to avoid being swept up into the waterspout that transferred
water to the other planetoid.
                                        -- Roger

ARPA:    goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}
         !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
         100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:     (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Forward's FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY
Date: 1 Feb 85 10:23:27 GMT

> From: intelca!cem
> Wasn't TFotD published as a three part series in Analog not to
> long ago?  (Not to long = ~2yrs) Or was the book made up of the
> articles? Seems a lot of multiparters are ending up as books these
> days (Witness D. Palmers Emergence) and had thought this was just
> one more such. The Analog story concerned the investigation of a
> remarkable double planet system with floating intellegent blobs
> that lived in a big bubble of water that got moved between
> planets, etc. It had a ship called the Dragon Fly, and a christmas
> bush. Is this the same story?

You betcha. "Rocheworld" was the name of the three-part
serialization of FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY in ANALOG, December 1982 to
February 1983.  In this case, it isn't that the serial ended up as a
book, but that the book was serialized in the magazine. Most of the
serials that appear in ANALOG (or any of the magazines, actually)
are novels that have already sold for book publication.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Sun 3 Feb 85 17:16:13-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
Subject: Lem's 'Microworlds' (reveiw)
Cc: r-bielak@CUTC20

        The following is passed on from a friend of mine who lacks
direct net access. Responses sent to me (oc.trei@cu20b.arpa) will be
passed on to him.
                                        Peter Trei

   Review of Stanislaw Lem's "Microworlds" ---
        [   By Richard Bielak, r-bielak%cutc20@cu20b.arpa   ]

     The new book by S. Lem "Microworlds" (HBJ, 1984) is somewhat
different from his other books published in English. It is not
fiction.  "Microworlds" is a collections of essays dealing with
science fiction.  Lem is a harsh critic of western science fiction,
therefore this book is not for the weak-stomached sci-fi fan.

     The book opens with an autobiographical essay, entitled
"Reflections on my life". This essay appeared previously in the New
Yorker under a different title.

     The next three essays: "On the Structural Analysis of Science
Fiction", "Science Fiction: A Hopeless Case - with Exceptions", and
"Philip K. Dick: A Visionary Among the Charlatans" contain the most
severe criticism of the genre. Lem's main objection is that science
fiction falls among trivial literature (such as westerns, detective
stories, or romantic fiction) despite claims to the contrary. To Lem
sci-fi is a consumer good whose production is driven by the whims of
the market. Therefore, the quality of a novel or a story is often
equated with the number of copies sold.

     Another problem with the current science fiction writing that
Lem sees is its lack of deeper meanings. Although many novels
describe in a self-consistent way fantastic settings or events, they
are only "empty games". Futhermore, Lem says, "...ninety to ninety
eight percent of the empty games in science fiction are very
primitive, very naive one-paramter processes. They are almost always
based on one or two rules, and in most cases it is the rule of
inversion that becomes their method of creation. To write such a
story you invert the members of a pair of linked concepts. For
example, we think the human body quite beautiful, but in the eyes of
an extraterrestrial we are all monsters: in Sheckley's "All the
Things You Are" the odor of human beings is poisonous for the
extraterrastrials. (...) What appears normal to us is abnormal to
others - about half of Sheckley's stories are built on this
principle." (pp. 37-38)

     The deep ideas Lem seeks are not of the type involving sweeping
statements about the oneness of man with the universe, God, or
whatever.  He wants to see more realism in science fiction instead
of fairy tale ideas disguised in psedo-scientific terms. To Lem
"Science fiction involves the art of putting hypothetical premises
into the very complicated stream of sociopsychological occurences.
Although this art once had its master in H.G. Wells, it has been
forgotten and is now lost." (page. 43)

     As the titles of the essays suggest Lem considers Philip K.
Dick, as an exceptional author. Lem likes P.K. Dick because his
novels exhibit more structure and put forth some coherent ideas,
even though they are still constructed with "trash" (i.e. telepaths,
pre-congs, psi, ESP, etc..). The books that Lem likes most are
"Ubik", "Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch", and "Solar Lottery".

     The remaining essays include a discusion of time travel plots
("The Time-Travel Story and Related Matters of Science-Fiction
Structuring"), relation between cosmology and science fiction, and
critcism of the writings of Jorge Luis Borges. The essay entitled
"Todorov's Fantastic Theory of Literature" was the most tedious to
read.  It debunked the theory proposed by Todorov (a Russian writer,
I presume), and it read like chapter from a textbook on literary
criticism.

     The final essay is a review of the book by the Strugarsky
brothers "Roadside Picnic". I believe that "Roadside Picnic" was the
basis for the film "Stalker" by the Russian film maker Andrei
Tarkovsky (he also made "Solaris"). Before discussing the book Lem
talks about the theme of alien invasions in science fiction books.

     I think that "Mircoworlds" is worth reading, however I expect
that many science fiction fans will be disturbed and angered by it.
As for my reaction, I loved the book, but then I am prejudiced. Lem
is my favorite writer.

   About the reviewer

     Lem is the first science fiction author I read and he is still
my favorite. I must agree with his point that most science fiction,
although entertaining, is very shallow.

     I was born in Poland, and lived in the same city as Lem. I
began reading his books at the age of 12. Although I read other
science fiction (Asimov, Bradbury, Clement, LeGuin, Pournelle,
Niven), Lem is the only author whose books I have read more than
once.

     I think that my all time favorite is "Star Diaries" (which I
first read in Polish at the age of 12), however some chapters of
"Perfect Vacuum" come close.

     Lem's strength comes from the tackling questions which are
usually ignored by everyone else. For example, in most books that
describe contact with alien beings, communication between aliens and
humans is easily established (e.g. "The Mote in God's Eye") - if
discussed at all.  This is due to excessive anthropomorphizing. This
does not happen in "Solaris" or "The Invincible". In these books we
cannot say for sure that the other being is intelligent. But that's
how it is in real life. To presume that communication would be easy
to establish between being evolved on different worlds is wrong.
Witness the research on dolphins; we can't even say if they are
intelligent or have a "language", but we evolved on the same planet.

     I know that many readers object to open-ended books, but any
science fiction book which answers every question at the end is
unrealistic. In real science an answer to a question, only leads to
many other questions, there are very few final answers.

     Bye for now....

        Richie Bielak   r-bielak@cutc20

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Feb 85 16:47:21-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: New books

Future Fantasy in Palo Alto has received:

del Rey:

The Integral Trees        Larry Niven  3.50  first paperback novel
Limits                    Larry Niven  2.95 new collection of short
                          stories
Night's Daughter          Marion Zimmer Bradley 2.95  new
        her version of the story of Mozart's opera, the Magic Flute
The Bicentennial Man and Other Stories   Issac Asimov  2.95 reprint
                          coll.
Nine Tomorrows            Issac Asimov 2.95   reprint collection
Night of Masks            Andre Norton 2.25   reprint novel

Pocket / Baen:

A Day for Damnation       David Gerrold  first mass paper, sequel to
          A Matter for Men 3.95
The Flight of the Dragonfly  Robert E. Forward  first mass paper, his
          second novel  3.50
The Torch of Honor        Roger MacBride Allen  new novel 2.95
With Mercy Toward None    Glen Cook    new novel 2.95
October the First is Too Late    Sir Fred Hoyle  reprint novel 2.95
The Future of Flight      Leik Myrabu / Dean Ing  new collection
   of speculation about fight in air and space   trade paperback 7.95

This is neither a offer to sell nor a soliciation to buy.

Randy.
If the books have finally reached California, they should be
available at points east.

------------------------------

From: abnji!jca@topaz (james armstrong)
Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies
Date: 1 Feb 85 17:35:58 GMT

>I went to the Dr. Who Convention in Philadelphia last year around
>this time, and Tom Baker said that while Dr. Who has a fairly large
>following in the U.S., there aren't really any "whoites" in England
>- the show evidently isn't really all that big there.

Tom Baker must have forgotten the 100,000 people who went to
Longleats, in Wiltshire, for the 20th Anniversary celebration,
Easter, 1983.  Or the fact that it is consistently one of Britains
most watched shows.  (7,000,000 + per episode)

The fans are of different types, perhaps this was what TB was
refering to.  I don't know, last year around this time I was
watching Frontion on BBC-1!

The biggest thing going for Dr. Who is that it is new.  Every year
26 (usually) new episodes are released.  There will be over 650 at
the end of the present season.  I used to watch Star Trek, but after
10 times, it does get a bit boring!  (The movies have all been below
my expectations)

If you get a chance, watch Dr Who!  At first, it may make no sense,
you may be caught with a bad story ("Power of Kroll!"), but give it
a chance and it will grow on you.  Admittedly, it doesn't have the
special effects that US Sci-Fi TV shows have, but it puts something
else in instead: A plot.

------------------------------

From: ukc!lkt@topaz (L.K.Turner)
Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies?
Date: 1 Feb 85 10:52:05 GMT
Reply-to: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner)

milne@uci-icse writes:
> I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English.  I think it's
> actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision) divisions,
> Lionheart.  ITV is Britain's commercial network , though not
> nearly so commercial as the North American ones.

Wrong! Now lets get this straight once and for *all*. Dr Who is made
by the BBC and has been for over twenty years , the first program
being broadcast in 1963 ( *Live* ).

I have never heard of an ITV division called Lionheart , but there
used to be a childrens T.V series of that name on ITV.

I hope this clears things up.

 == L.K.T
  UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt  ( L.K.Turner)

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!nairb@topaz (b. enke)
Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies (also another WORST sci-fi movie)
Date: 2 Feb 85 00:36:15 GMT

> The biggest thing going for Dr. Who is that it is new.  Every year
> 26 (usually) new episodes are released.  There will be over 650 at
> the end of the present season.  I used to watch Star Trek, but
> after 10 times, it does get a bit boring!  (The movies have all
> been below my expectations)
>
> If you get a chance, watch Dr Who!  At first, it may make no
> sense, you may be caught with a bad story ("Power of Kroll!"), but
> give it a chance and it will grow on you.  Admittedly, it doesn't
> have the special effects that US Sci-Fi TV shows have, but it puts
> something else in instead: A plot.

I've seen gobs of news concerning how BAD everyone thought *Power of
Kroll* was, so I must be very rare.  This episode was actually the
first one I ever saw, and I'm still watching !!  It was bad, though.

However, about your plots statement, GET SERIOUS!!

By the way, another vote for the "worst WORST WORST!!!" sci-fi movie
of all time is ??? (I can't remember the name because it was so
bad).  The plot went something like this: China blows up the world,
but first, one rocket escapes, travelling to Venus.  The rocket
contains four men and three women (typical Adam and Eve), and these
people are faced with really corny decisions throughout the trip.
The ending completely ruined this already bad movie, though.  After
watching it, I still don't know if they made it to Venus or got
blown to bits by some all-powerful Venesian god! BLAH!!  Adam and
Eve), and

------------------------------

From: voder!kevin@topaz (The Last Bugfighter)
Subject: Re: Maya (Catherine Schell)
Date: 31 Jan 85 21:13:59 GMT

> Anyone know whatever happened to Catherine Schell?

  The last time I saw her was in a Tom Baker Doctor Who episode a
few years ago.

Kevin Thompson   {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin

"It's sort of a threat, you see.  I've never been very good at them
  myself but I'm told they can be very effective."

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jcgowl@topaz (r. gowland)
Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies
Date: 1 Feb 85 16:09:37 GMT

> From: Anne Rich <rich@udel-eecis2>
>
> I went to the Dr. Who Convention in Philadelphia last year
> around this time, and Tom Baker said that while Dr. Who has a
> fairly large following in the U.S., there aren't really any
> "whoites" in England - the show evidently isn't really all that
> big there.

Part of the reason why the Dr. Who show doesn't seem to have such a
big following in the UK is that it is made for and aimed at children
in the age-group from 5 to 12. It is broadcast in prime childrens'
viewing timeslots, usually 5pm Saturday with sometimes repeats at
6pm on a Monday. It is acknowledged by many that the programme is
for kids, but loved by adults. I *like* (as opposed to *love*) it,
but prefer Star Trek which comes at us in 50 minutes complete
programmes. Dr. Who (as Richard Jeffreys probably pointed out) is
shown over 4, 5 or 6 weeks at 25 minutes per episode.  ihlpg!jcgowl
Roger R. Gowland at Indian Hill (temporarily)

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 12:09:34-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #37

Of course, Lalla Ward's Romana wore a hat: Her outfit was a direct,
"feminine" copy of Tom Baker's.  (Please, no flames about
"feminine"--that's why it's in quotes.)  However, she was NOT the
only one ever to wear a hat.  Sara Jane Smith wore a number of caps,
hats, and such over the years, depending on what was fashionable for
young women in London at that time.  Leela wore hats in "The Talons
of Weng-Chiang" and "The Horror of Fang Rock."  And of course Tegan
Jovanka wore one of those silly little caps that airlines (used to?)
make cabin attendants wear.
                                                Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Feb 85 0037-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 4 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:

     Books - Donaldson & May (2 msgs) & Shiner & Story Request,
     Films - Worst SF Film,
     Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs) & American Playhouse (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: houxm!gregbo@topaz (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 3 Feb 85 19:14:59 GMT

> From: red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth)
> Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the
> first three.

I rather liked the first three.  The second three were a little
longish.  Much of TC and Linden's wanderings around the Stonedowns
could have been omitted, as well as their sea voyage and all that
nonsense with the Bhrathair.  As I look at Donaldson's six books
(volumes placed side by side) the second set is thicker than the
first.  Nevertheless, I'd like to see more, for example:

* The origins of the Creator, the Despiser, etc. and how the Earth
  was created (a la Silmarillion).

* The origins of men, their foes (the ur-viles), and Giants, and any
  other earthly beings that I have forgotten.

* Berek's life, his creation of the Wards, etc.

* Berek's descendants, particularly Kevin, and the story of his
  fall.

* Particularly stories about Giants.

> Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense.
> The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of
> the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign).

They should, after all, it is US that Covenant is supposed to
represent -- our struggles, the contest of good vs. evil, self-doubt
and self-loathing, etc.  A lot of people seem to hate Covenant
because he is so despicable (including himself) but that quality of
the books I enjoyed the most because his struggle is the struggle of
all men.

Am I to understand that there are some TC books coming out soon?  I
waited until White Gold Wielder came out so I could get the second
set and read them all at once ... I don't know if I can wait 3 more
years for 3 more paperbacks.

If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse.

Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo

------------------------------

From: ccice2!bwm@topaz (Brad Miller)
Subject: Re: Julian May
Date: 1 Feb 85 22:44:10 GMT

I just finished reading "The Multi-Colored Land":

REVIEW:

Classification: Science-fiction (soft).

Premise: Misfits from the near-future take a one-way trip to
Pliocene Earth, where they hope to escape from the tribulations of
civilization, but find themselves enslaved to an alien race.

<<Plot has been summarized previously, so I'll skip it>>

I think that the book is a good rapid read, and compares favorably
with other good action-sf, though it may not be as classic as
Zelazny's "Chronicles of Amber". Nonetheless, if you like Farmer and
Zelazny's tales, I think you'd enjoy this book. I have 'The Golden
Torc' on my nightstand, I'll be reading it next.

Brad Miller

..[cbrma, ccivax, ccicpg, rayssd, ritcv, rlgvax,rochester]
!ccice5!ccice2!bwm

------------------------------

From: boring!jack@topaz
Subject: Re: Julian May
Date: 3 Feb 85 16:09:46 GMT
Reply-to: jack@boring.UUCP (Jack Jansen)

I read the "Saga of the Exiles" series last summer,and the following
things struck me:

- There are a lot of references to the situation on earth before
2034. Did Julian May write a predecessor to this series? If he did,
how good is it?

- There are a lot of things that do not seem to make sense in the
context of the story. For instance the story about the rama with the
torc, or the fact that it is explicitly stated a lot of times that
Felice isn't dead. Would there be more books coming up? (By the way,
I have 4 books, The Many-couloured Land, The Golden Torc, The
Non-born King, and The Adversary, and the story seems complete).

Any responses will be welcomed, and I'll summarize, of course.

        Jack Jansen, {decvax|philabs|seismo}!mcvax!jack
Notice new, improved, faster address         ^^^^^

------------------------------

From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: FRONTERA by Lewis Shiner
Date: 1 Feb 85 18:07:12 GMT

                      FRONTERA by Lewis Shiner
                      Baen Books, 1984, $2.95.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is a book has a lot of promise, but it just doesn't
deliver.  The premise is good: the first permanent Mars settlement
--Frontera-- was cut off from Earth when all the governments and
social order in general fell apart back on Earth.  Now, several
years later, the corporations have picked up the pieces and send a
"rescue mission" to Frontera.

     The scenario for the transition from government to corporation
rule on Earth does not bear close inspection, particularly in the
USSR, but little time is spent on Earth, so this could be glossed
over.  And Shiner does have a good writing style, capable of holding
your interest with realistic descriptions of life in the Martian
colony.  But unlike Occam, he multiplies entities (in this case,
premises) needlessly.  The children born to the colonists on Mars
are mutants who have set up their own laboratory in a cave, where
they may or may not have developed faster-than-light travel/matter
transmission.  None of the main characters is what could be
described as normal, and this soon starts to look like
"funny-hat-ism," where everyone is identified by the funny hat they
wear.  In many ways it reminded me of Frederik Pohl's STARBURST
("The Gold at Starbow's End"), with its gratuitous (in my opinion)
mysticism.  I didn't like STARBURST either.

     It's a pity.  If Shiner had just stuck to the idea of the
stranded Martian colony and how they survived, without all this FTL
mumbo-jumbo, he could have had a great story.

                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Identify This One, Please?
Date: 1 Feb 85 22:07:08 GMT

I suspect this request is a tuffy.

Can anyone identify the story by title and author (and publication)
from the following:

It was written and published prior to 1949 for I had a copy in 1948
or late 1947.

It was probably a novelette or long short story.

It involved a mining operation <in> the sun.

Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow
polarized the molecules (atoms?) of both ship and sun allowing those
of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun. That's all I
remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun and
back out. Something unusual happened there,but I haven't the
foggiest idea what anymore.

It was most likely something from Planet Stories, or TWS, or SS
(needless to say, not the Big A).

I have a special reason to recall this story so I would much
appreciate any help.  Thanks in advance!  I know you can do it!


"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie (well, not exactly)
Date: 2 Feb 85 08:37:31 GMT

>>Ever wonder how they got that enormous elevator shaft into that
>>small ship?  [in Dark Star]
>
> Better yet, look closely at the size of the bombs vs. the size of
> the ship, and try to figure out where they stored 20 of those
> things.

Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The
Transatlantic Tunnel.  (Incidentally, all prints of this were
believed lost.  Also incidentally, it's a British remake of a 1933
German movie.)  For a 1930's sf movie, it wasn't that bad -- but
there were some nice howlers.

Like... you're digging a tunnel, depicted as about 30-40 feet in
diameter, from London to New York.  This is somewhat over 3000
miles.  Converting to metric, say 10 m diam and 5000 km length.  The
volume of the tunnel is therefore PI*5*5*5000000 m^3, which is
400000000 m^3.  If the rock has only 2.5 times the density of water,
that's ONE BILLION metric TONS to be lifted to sea level and
disposed of... this was simply ignored!  And the 1500-mile trip from
the tunnel ends to the working face was depicted as taking a time on
the order of minutes, maybe an hour, in vehicles shown moving at no
more than 50 mph...

Mark Brader

------------------------------

From: hao!ward@topaz (Mike Ward)
Subject: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 30 Jan 85 20:58:38 GMT

This is posted for Dave Kliman  (Drexel!dave)...

What is "the prisoner"?  Could someone out there please explain to
me what that series is all about?

Michael Ward, NCAR/SCD
UUCP: {hplabs,nbires,brl-bmd,seismo,menlo70,stcvax}!hao!ward
ARPA: hplabs!hao!ward@Berkeley
BELL: 303-497-1252
USPS: POB 3000, Boulder, CO  80307

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 1 Feb 85 18:52:23 GMT

ward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) writes:
>This is posted for Dave Kliman  (Drexel!dave)...
>
>What is "the prisoner"?  Could someone out there please explain
>to me what that series is all about?

The prisoner is a 1967 TV series starring Patrick McGoohan. It
lasted 17 espisodes, and relates the story of a british secret agent
that resigns for unknown reasons. He is gassed in his apartment, and
wakes up in the Village. Everyone in the Village is either a rebel
like himself or a plant of the people who run it-- they could either
be his side, trying to find out why he resigned, or their side,
trying to find out what he knows. They are trying to break him, he
is trying to escape. It can be interpreted in a very Kafkaesque
mode, and also in terms of an Orwellian society if you want-- nobody
in the Village has a name, (McGoohan is #6, and the Village is
overseen by #2). It is very surrealistic, very thought provoking,
and very well done. You need to really pay attention to it or it
will look like a rather random piece of film, but it all ties
together quite well.

chuq
From the ministry of silly talks:               Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

Life, the Universe, and lots of other stuff is a trademark of AT&T
Bell Labs

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS) - "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank"
Date: 1 Feb 85 00:02:59 GMT

William Daul writes:
> ... The American Playhouse (PBS) is showing a sci-fi play this
> week. It is called Overdrawn At The Memory Bank. I thought I had
> once heard it was good. Most material that the American Playhouse
> performs is excellent (a personal value judgement on my part).

I expect this is the same TV-movie I saw on the CBC last year.  It
was a Canadian production.  I'd read the short story (same title,
can't remember the author or where I saw it) a year or two before
that -- long enough to forget some detail.

While I enjoyed the short story, I think the TV adapters must have
tampered with the plot.  The tycoon character had a large and
illogical part, which I don't remember from the story; he must have
been added or altered.  And this made the thing rather nonsensical.

However, if this major flaw is overlooked, it wasn't bad.

Mark Brader, Toronto, Canada

------------------------------

From: utcs!wjr@topaz (William Rucklidge)
Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS)
Date: 31 Jan 85 18:32:12 GMT

> From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD
> <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
>
> The general announcement here is that The American Playhouse (PBS)
> is showing a sci-fi play this week.  It is called Overdrawn At The
> Memory Bank.  I thought I had once heard it was good.  Most
> material that the American Playhouse performs is excellent (a
> personal value judgement on my part).
>
> The specific message is for SF Bay Area folks.  It will be shown
> on KTEH channel 54 on tuesday, february 5th at 9:00 pm.  I believe
> there is some other computer-related show that follows
> it...something on privacy(?)

I saw this show a few months back when it was aired by TV Ontario.
It was filmed in Toronto, I believe. However, the plot was hacked,
mangled and slaughtered by whoever adapted the original story (by
John Varley). They added a villain, a conspiracy and a romantic
interest, none of which the story needed. Also, when the hero is
trapped inside the computer, he falls into a recreation of ...
Rick's Cafe Americain. That's right, the one from Casablanca,
complete with Bogart and Lorre clones. This was the touch that
soured the whole thing for me.

I don't know about the rest of the American Playhouse productions,
but this one is barely worth watching.

William Rucklidge       University of Toronto Computing Services
{decvax,ihnp4,utcsrgv,{allegra,linus}!utzoo}!utcs!wjr
GISO - Garbage In, Serendipity Out.
This message brought to you with the aid of the Poslfit Committee.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 1985 03:23:04 PST
Subject: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank
From: John Platt <PLATT@CIT-20.ARPA>

  "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" is apparently going to be shown on
American Playhouse on PBS some time during the week of Feb. 4.
(check local listings, etc.)... The promos make one uneasy: they say
the plot revolves around someone who "finds the secret code for
unlocking movies."  They show someone sitting next to a
pseudo-Bogart in Rick's cafe. It doesn't sound like they took too
much from the Varley short story...  In fact, it sounds like they
only took the title, and not much else.  Well, we'll see....

                                                john
                                                (platt@cit-20)

Everyone puts obnoxious things at the bottom of their messages,
except me!

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS); also, John Varley
Date: 2 Feb 85 08:15:09 GMT

Re "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" -- is this based on the John
Varley story of the same name? If so, it will be interesting to see
what they make of it. (On your specific message: I don't get 54. Do
you know if 9 or 32 will be showing it?)

Varley is fast becoming one of my favorite SF authors. At first,
although I would occasionally stumble across one of his shorter
works and say to myself, "hmmm, that's nice...", I somehow never got
motivated enough to go out and track down more stuff. Then, there
came a time when I didn't have anything really pressing, but there
was this copy of \\Titan// lying around. By the time I finished it,
symptoms of addiction were beginning to manifest themselves; by now,
I believe I'm hooked for good.

I recently got a copy of \\Demon//. In my opinion, this series has
maintained its high quality throughout, and \\Demon// may even be
the best of the lot. I have seen very little discussion of either
\\Demon// or Varley in sf-lovers - is anybody else out there reading
him? I am somewhat surprised that his name didn't crop up in the
"good female characters" discussion which took place recently (or
maybe it did - I missed a fair chunk of that one); many of his
important characters are female.

It seems to me that there must be a sequel in store here. Although
there is not an overwhelming tangle of loose ends that would demand
another book to tie everything up (the Riverworld phenomenon), there
is too much going on in this universe for me to be content with
things as they are at the end of \\Demon//. The principal characters
are by no means played out, either. Does anybody else concur with
this opinion?
                                        Bill Laubenheimer
                                        UC-Berkeley Computer Science
     ...Killjoy went that-a-way--->     ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Feb 85 1039-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:

             Books - Forward & Niven,
             Films - Worst SF Movie (3 msgs),
             Television - Otherworld & Quark (3 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Space Burial (3 msgs) &
                     Science Fiction Book Club (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz
Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly)
Date: 31 Jan 85 05:38:22 GMT

Yes, the new Forward book TFotD is an expanded version of the serial
that appeared in Analog. At a rough guess, 50% of the material in
the book is new: covering preparations for the flight, the flight,
and the Gargantua flybys (sorta useless material, that). An appendix
giving technical details of the flight, including illos.

If you liked (or haven't read & like Forward and/or Clement) the
serial, the paperback is probably worth your $'s. The tradeback
probably isn't.

Now, I want to by a Christmas Bush for my Vaxen. Anybody selling
'em?

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 01:11:54-PST
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: "Limits" by Larry Niven

LIMITS is well worth reading.  It contains a short story in his
"magic goes away" series, several Draco tavern stories, and three
collaberations.  (with Jerry Pournelle, Dian Girard, and Steve
Barnes) "Another modest proposal" (his essay in this collection) is
the only part that does not fall in the good to excellent range.
This collecton is a mixed bag (it even contains a berserker story...
writen with Saberhagen's permission) and a good catch.

"Limits" by Larry Niven  (c) 1985
Del Rey  0-345-32142-1   February, 1985  $2.95

Bob Larson <Blarson@Usc-Ecl.Arpa>

I.B.M.
U.B.M.
We all B.M.
For I.B.M.
(Quick: who is the fictonal author of the above poem?)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 85 17:37:47 EST
From: JOn <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Rocky (Horrible)

>>> . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF
>
>Now wait just a minute here Mark.  Rocky is high camp - outrageous
>on purpose.  Rocky shouldn't be on a list of bad SF movies for many
>of the same reasons that Dark Star is exempt.  (I know, you just
>included it on the list so that you could call it the "Queen of bad
>SF", right?)

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rocky Horror open to
terrible reviews and close after a few weeks in the theatres?  I
seem to remember that the 'Rocky' craze was enabled after the movie
'Fame' brought it to our attention.  Rocky Horror was supposed to be
a serious movie, and it failed in that way.

>If you've only seen Rocky Horror once, go again.  The movie grows
>on you after a while.  After about the tenth viewing, when you can
>sing all the songs and recite all the lines as well as you can for
>every Star Trek episode, you may find that you enjoy it.  Then
>again, you may no longer be sane any more.

I'm sorry, but I don't like to become a 'conformist'.  After a
while, I'd get tired of saying "Where's your $%&{Saturn symbol}!#
neck!" over and over again.  The same holds true with ST.  I turn it
on, and if it's one I instantly remember, I switch over to local PBS
to see The Good Neighbors, Butterflies, etc.  Don't get me wrong, I
like making fun of poorly made films, but not more than once or
twice.  I'd rather not patronize shoddy productions.

>To really be considered one of the "worst" movies of all time, I
>think that a movie has to be a) a ridiculously pretentious attempt
>at serious movie making, b) a low budget and poorly thought out
>attempt to jump on and exploit the "SF market" bandwagon, or c) a
>blatant insult to the intelligence of the audience.

This is true, but I do not agree with the requirement about low
budgets.  Many films start out with Megabucks, and fail on the other
counts.  Recent unfavorites include Superduperman III, and Trash of
the Titans.  Need I say more?

JOn

"But what about our relationship?"
"%$# that!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 00:46:21-EST
From: geoffrey dov cooper <MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #37

        i was only being semi-facetious about the star wars movies.
yes they did gross an amazing amount of money, but, they are not and
never have been good science fiction.

        they lack adequate characterization, an adult plot, realism
in their special effects, etc.

        as someone previously pointed out they are simply a remake
of all the old westerns that we watched as kids, with the addition
of old air battle footage ala n wwii movies.

        i forget the originator of the quote but "you can't go broke
underestimating the taste of the american public."

        star wars is and was a prime example of shooting for the
lowest common denominator.  money made is not an adequate indicator
of quality it just goes to show that action/adventure never goes out
of style.  if money made was the way to choose quality then harold
robbins and sidney sheldon are the greatest writers since the edge
of creation (excepting moses of course).

                            shades@mit-oz

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Feb 1985 07:39:03-PST
From: wasser_1%viking.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John A. Wasser)
Subject: Worst SF Movie of All Time

My nominee for "Worst SF Movie" is:

                      Message From Outer Space

This film arrived in Rochester, NY around 1977 or 1978.  It was a
cheap oriental rip-off of Star Wars.  There was a "fly through a
tunnel" scene to take the place of the "trench" scene.  One of the
musical themes was IDENTICAL in the first 10 notes to Princess
Leia's theme from Star Wars.  There was also a scene in which the
pilots are briefed on how to fly the trenches and attack the core
reactor.  This showed a simulation picture of the attack, again a
copy of the "Star Wars" briefing scene.

The "Message" in the title consisted of three magic nuts that were
thrown through space.  These nuts looked exactly like walnuts except
they were painted red and had lightbulbs inside.

The largest space-ship in the show looked like a multi-masted wooden
sailing ship (complete with sails).  The ship was controlled by
LARGE metal levers (probably moving the motors by hand?).

For some reason, the names mentioned in the TV ad and prominently
displayed on the poster were American.  All of the other names on
the poster were oriental.  The only name I recognized was Vic Morrow
(sp?) who had a rather small part that I don't remember clearly.

When some friends and I saw this film, we were literally stunned by
the stupidity of the plot, acting, effects etc.  When we got out of
the film...  we thought back on the absurdity of it all and started
to giggle.  We continued to giggle, and remind each other of
particularly ludicrous parts, for almost an hour.  It is for this
reason that I wish to nominate this absolute abomination of a film
for "Worst SF Movie of All Time"

                -John A. Wasser

P.S.  My thanks to Bob Peterson (PETERSON%VAXWRK.DEC@decwrl.ARPA)
who saw this turkey with me and remembered the pilot briefing scene.
He adds: "I hope no one else had to see it unless to get an outraged
tickle."

Work address:
ARPAnet:WASSER%VIKING.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-viking!wasser
USPS:   Digital Equipment Corp.
        Mail stop: LJO2/E4
        30 Porter Rd
        Littleton, MA  01460

------------------------------

From: hpfcla!ajs@topaz (ajs)
Subject: New CBS show: Other World
Date: 27 Jan 85 04:02:00 GMT

Just caught the pilot show of "Other World" on CBS.  Surprisingly
entertaining and well-crafted.  Nothing significantly new about the
plot, but it still promises to be a varied and enjoyable show.

Did anyone notice the jet contrail in the desert sky in the very last
scene?  Right over the "Forbidden Zone", too.  I wonder how (or if)
they'll explain that one as the show progresses...

Alan "reality, fantasy, repeat" Silverstein

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  1 Feb 1985 21:22:25-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks 223-9408)
Subject: QUARK

I believe that QUARK was conceived by Richard Benjamin and Avery
Schreiber. Each weekly episode was written by a different writer, a
la Star Trek. One such was a high school classmate of mine, William
A. MacCarty III.

        It was a funny series.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland)
Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash"
Date: 1 Feb 85 15:05:11 GMT

>       If I remember correctly, Quark was about the adventures of
> a galactic garbage ship and its crew.  Richard Benjamin played the
> captain, and two blonde, buxom, appropriately-clad twins (REAL
> twins) played the crew; there was also a very stereotypical robot.
> The first episode involved Benjamin coming into possession of "THE
> SOURCE" and was not bad; I can't recall any other episodes.
> (Quark was the captain's name.)

You forgot Ficus!!!!!! That wonderful non-emotional being who
evolved from a plant.
                                        Randy Buckland
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark
Date: 2 Feb 85 06:42:31 GMT

Ah, yes - Quark.  One of the original postings was titled something
like "spoof or trash", well I'm afraid mostly trash (in more ways
than one.)

The basic premise here was that Quark was the commander of an
interstellar garbage truck (ship), although I don't remember his
ever making an actual pickup.  He worked out of a chaotic space
station called PERMA 1, under the supervision of Conrad Janis (of
Mork & Mindy fame).  The whole operation was overseen by a
(disembodied?) head called The Head.

Quark's crew consisted of two beautiful clones, a mostly emotionless
humanoid vegatable first officer and a hermaphrodite (which meant
not what you would expect, but that he/she would spend half the time
acting super macho and half the time acting stereotypically gay).  In
some of the early episodes, the science officer was a one-eyed old
man (he put out the other eye by falling asleep at the microscope).
Additionally, there was some sort of uncontrolable alien pet on
board.

Sound interesting?  Well, maybe.  However, every episode I saw (and
they seemed to be very irregularly scheduled) was horrible except
for one.  When I say horrible, I mean in a technical sense as well
as the writing, acting and directing.  The laugh track was the worse
I can remember on any show (and if you remember the laugh track of a
show at all, that's a bad sign).

What was the one good episode?  It was a one hour special Star Wars
parody.  Everyone else was unavaiable so The Head had to send Quark
to save the federation (or whatever it was).  With Quark and his
crew, the head also sent an invisible, omnipresent and somewhat
klutzy entity called THE SOURCE.  The bad guys were headquartered in
a space station that looked exactly like Darth Vader's mask.  I
don't know how they did it, but somehow the jokes in this one were
actually funny and the acting competent.  I remember it with great
fondness, even though the laugh track did get out of hand once (when
the 2 bettys were denying that they knew each other).  I was hoping
that maybe everyone involved had learned something, but when I tuned
in next episode --- same old awful trash.

SOURCE : Quick quark, follow me.
Quark  : Right... Wait a minute, your're everywhere.

Ted Nolan            ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle       ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206     allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

      ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination")

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!ndiamond@topaz (Norman Diamond)
Subject: Re: Space Burial
Date: 30 Jan 85 17:54:34 GMT

> It's not enough that humans have to waste on cemeteries the land
> that's scarce enough in some areas to fight wars over (which is
> one good way to fill them).  After all the amount of land in the
> world is essentially constant and the number of dead people in the
> world is monotonically increasing.  Phil (I want to be cremated
> when I die) Karn

Until "recently" (historically speaking), it was not uncommon for
the same cemetery plots to be re-used, after intervals of around 10
or 50 years or so.  This practice changed when squeamish people
migrated to a continent that had an infinite supply of land.  (They
also obtain infinite supplies of fresh water, food, trees for paper,
etc., from this land.)

-- Norman Diamond

UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdaisy!ndiamond
CSNET: ndiamond%watdaisy@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  ndiamond%watdaisy%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

"Opinions are those of the keyboard, and do not reflect on me or
higher-ups."

------------------------------

From: petrus!karn@topaz
Subject: Re: Space Burial
Date: 30 Jan 85 03:32:30 GMT

What a stupid idea. It's not enough that humans have to waste on
cemeteries the land that's scarce enough in some areas to fight wars
over (which is one good way to fill them). After all the amount of
land in the world is essentially constant and the number of dead
people in the world is monotonically increasing. Now we have to
waste one of mankinds's most expensive and potentially valuable
technological systems we have on it as well.

Ah, progress and free enterprise. What else would you expect from a
country that gave you both Ronald Reagan and William Proxmire?

Phil (I want to be cremated when I die) Karn

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 85 16:55:00 EST
From: JOn <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Space Burial

Space Burial sounds interesting enough to persue further.  I do
remember reading about this somewhere other than the digest.  It's
an interesting concept, and the costs don't seem to be 'out of this
world' (sorry).  But what about funerals at the other end of the
shuttle flights?  I had the idea about being cremated by the
shuttle's engines on takeoff...

JOn

------------------------------

Date: Sun 3 Feb 85 13:00:32-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Science Fiction Book Club

Here is a response from a satisfied customer.

I joined the SFBC about 18 months ago, and since then have bought
not quite one book per month.

The books are of usual "club edition" quality - hard bound, fairly
inexpensive, pages sometimes irregular &c.  However, the average
cost, including shipping &c, was about $6 per book, which I consider
a reasonable price for something that is definitely more durable and
more pleasant than a pb.  The printing has always been clear and
legible.

If you just get the "5 books for $1" or whatever, and then take only
the minimum required number of books, you have a tremendous bargain.
I could have filled my quota just with

        Helliconia Summer
        The Crucible of Time
        Code of the Lifemaker
        Moreta
        Heechee Rendezvous

to name just five really good books from SFBC.

As you've gathered, I like the old-fashioned "hard" science fiction.
But the catalogue also contains a good deal of sword & sorcery,
fantasy, valuable reprints, and much else.

In my opinion, the SFBC is well worth joining.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Feb 1985 10:29:39-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB

I've been in the book club twice now.

Overall my reaction to their selection is an old fashioned
"raspberry"!  They have a few oldies but goodies, alot of current
(last two or three years), and VERY few new ones. Also, the new ones
are never available till after they make it to the bookstores.

In other words, go for the freebies when you sign-up, but get out
ASAP.

What we need is good old fashioned competition in the sci-fi
bookclub market!!

Gaylene

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Feb 85 1457-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:

      Books - Ellison & May (2 msgs),
      Films - Worst SF Movie (5 msgs) & The Tunnel (2 msgs) &
      Buck Rogers & Buckaroo Banzai & Dune (2 msgs),
      Television - Quark (2 msgs) & Otherworld

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: idmi-cc!root@topaz (Admin)
Subject: ELLISON / DEATHBIRD / QUESTION (help)
Date: 31 Jan 85 19:01:13 GMT

   One of my all time favorite science fiction works was the
DEATHBIRD by Harlan "the little monster" Ellison.  The story left me
speechless for days.  (People thought I'd caught some disease, my
parents called a shrink, the dog hid all its toys...)  My only
problem with it was the 'dedication' at the end, (for those of you
who haven't read it I won't ?spoil? it for you by printing it here)
I can't figure it out.  Nothing in that story happened without a
reason!  Having little knowledge of the person referred to, and little
more of his works, I have never been able to understand the
significance of the last line... the 'dedication'.
  Anyone out there know what I'm talking about and have an answer?
  Please mail it to me ASAP!!!!
  Much thanks in advance.

             Andrew R. Scholnick
             Information Design and Management Inc., Alexandria, Va.
                ...seismo!rlgvax!idmi-cc!andrew

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 85 13:02:44 PST (Tuesday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Brad Miller's review: Julian May

> I just finished reading "The Multi-Colored Land":

It's "The Many-Colored Land"

--Josh
"Why's there a watermelon there?"
"I'll tell you later."

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 85 13:34:05 PST (Tuesday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Jack Jansen Re: Julian May

Oops, next time I'll read ALL the digest before I reply...

First off, Julian May is a SHE not a HE.

Secondly, I believe she is now working on <The Milieu Trilogy>.
These books will tell of the Milieu before (? - I hate time travel
stories) <The Saga of the Pliocene Exile>, in the days of the
Metaspychic Rebellion (I suppose).  The titles of the Trilogy will
be "Jack the Bodiless", "Diamond Mask" and "Magnificat".  I hope
there will also be tales of adventures in the Tanu galaxy as well.
It seems that Ms. May is just getting started, and I see no reason
for the quality of her writing to do anything but improve.

                    ***** SPOILER WARNING *****

> - There are a lot of things that do not seem to make sense in the
> context of the story. For instance the story about the rama with
> the torc, or the fact that it is explicitly stated a lot of times
> that Felice isn't dead.

The bit about the rama that finds the golden torc is to explain why
there is no torc on the corpse of Lugonn the Shining One. (The
original, first-comer hero) This is important, as if the rama had
not found and taken Lugonn's torc, Felice would have found it on the
expedition to the Ship's Grave, and would have been operant far
sooner.

The reason it is stated a lot of times that Felice isn't dead is
that she isn't.  She doesn't die in "The Golden Torc" when she falls
from Elizabeth's balloon; she turns into a raven and flies away.
She doesn't die in "The Non-born King" in her battle with Aiken and
Marc, either.  It is explained in the begining of "The Adversary"
that she fused with Culluket the Interregator, her beloved, and
formed some kind of ruby "soul gem" or something.  Elizabeth hides
this in her room-without-doors and leaves Felice/Culluket buried in
it at the scene of the battle.  No one but Elizabeth can enter the
room-without-doors, but Felice is free to leave if she ever escapes
her ruby form.

--Josh
"It may be garbage, but it's garbage that smells OK."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 85 08:41 EST
From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Worst SF Movie

Funny that I haven't seen more mention of "Green Slime" as the worst
SF film around.  This is a definite six-pack movie.  And even then
only the sound track is interesting.

Eric

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible)
Date: 5 Feb 85 04:08:26 GMT

>>> . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF
>>
>>Now wait just a minute here Mark.  Rocky is high camp - outrageous
>>on purpose.  Rocky shouldn't be on a list of bad SF movies for
>>many of the same reasons that Dark Star is exempt.  (I know, you
>>just included it on the list so that you could call it the "Queen
>>of bad SF", right?)
>
> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rocky Horror open to
> terrible reviews and close after a few weeks in the theatres?  I
> seem to remember that the 'Rocky' craze was enabled after the
> movie 'Fame' brought it to our attention.  Rocky Horror was
> supposed to be a serious movie, and it failed in that way.

Now wait just a minute here! Rocky Horror Picture Show was trashed
by the critics, if that is really of any signifigance.  But it was
indeed a cult classic long before "Fame" rode to fame on it's
coat-tails!
                                           John L. Templer
                                     University of Texas at Austin

    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

                 "and they called it, yuppy love."

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible)
Date: 5 Feb 85 05:42:50 GMT

>To really be considered one of the "worst" movies of all time, I
>think that a movie has to be a) a ridiculously pretentious attempt
>at serious movie making, b) a low budget and poorly thought out
>attempt to jump on and exploit the "SF market" bandwagon, or c) a
>blatant insult to the intelligence of the audience.

Does this mean that an obvious parody cannot be bad?

Sean

------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 Feb 85 12:36:16-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Rocky Horror

I don't think it counts in the "worst ever movies" marathon.
Richard O'Brien intended from the first to make a grade-B movie in
the grand old tradition (or so he said).  If that's a serious bad
movie, then so is "Spinal Tap".

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Oh boy, a DIFFERENT bad SF movie!
Date: 31 Jan 85 07:07:14 GMT

Come on, you guys.  A lot of you are voting for Plan Nine from Outer
Space when you watched it SPECIFICALLY because it is well known as a
bad movie.  What about those movies you watched WITHOUT knowing what
you were getting into?

I have two candidates:

THE SWARM (good 'ol Irwin Allen's version of the killer bees).  This
is especially putrid, since some some (nominally) hi-grade actors
were in it, like, Henry Fonda, Richard Chamberlain, and Richard
Widmark.  My favorite part is where Michael Caine and another actor
are facing each other, talking, and the camera goes into orbit
around them...does a complete 360, keeping them on the center of the
screen as the background whizzes by.  You can tell that Caine and
the other guy are desperately trying not to glance at the camera.
No need to describe anything else, as THE SWARM is listed in the
"Golden Turkey Awards."  I am generally uncritical when I go to
movies, just planning on killing a little time.  But this movie does
it by the nanosecond...

The second movie isn't SF, but did feature the star of one of the
best SF movies (A Clockwork Orange), Malcom McDowell.  This stinker
was called, "The Passage," an abysmal WWII escape film, also
starring Anthony Quinn and Patricia Neal.  McDowell essentially
plays Alex Lefarge in a Gestapo uniform.  I only mention this movie,
as it is the only film the theater tried to talk me out of seeing...
When I asked for tickets, the manager came over and said, "I have to
warn you, this movie is very bloody."  I said that was OK, but he
said again, "It is REALLY bloody and gross."  We saw it anyway.
What was the bloody part?  See net.cooking for details...

                                          Ron Wanttaja
                                          (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

"Captain Dallas, it's time to feed the alien..."

------------------------------

From: ho95b!ran@topaz (RANeinast)
Subject: The Tunnel
Date: 4 Feb 85 18:37:52 GMT

>Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The
>Transatlantic Tunnel.  (It's a British remake of a 1933 German
>movie.  All prints of it were believed lost.)  For a 1930's sf
>movie, it wasn't that bad -- but there were some nice howlers.
>
>Like... you're digging a tunnel, depicted as about 30-40 feet in
>diameter, from London to New York.
>
>Even if the rock has only 2.5 times the density of water, that's
>ONE BILLION metric TONS of spoil (some miles below sea level, too)
>that you have to dispose of... this was simply ignored!
> Mark Brader

And just think of their surprise when they tunnel through the
Mid-Atlantic Ridge!  Ever tried tunneling through an *active*
volcano?

". . . and shun the frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95c!ran)
AT&T-Bell Labs

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!faigin@topaz
Subject: The Tunnel
Date: 4 Feb 85 04:47:14 GMT

msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes:
>Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The
>Transatlantic Tunnel.
>
>Like... you're digging a tunnel, depicted as about 30-40 feet in
>diameter, from London to New York.

Does anyone know if this movie is related in any way, shape, or form
to the Harry Harrison book,
                "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!"

Daniel P. Faigin, University of California at Los Angeles
UUCP: {cepu|ihnp4|trwspp|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!faigin
ARPA: faigin@UCLA-CS.ARPA
USPS (Home): 11743 Darlington Avenue #9/Los Angeles CA 90049
AT&T (Home): (213) 826-3357

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" (not either of the ones you
Subject: think)
Date: 3 Feb 85 09:40:07 GMT

I just saw a real rarity: a short based on "Buck Rogers in the 25th
Century".  This isn't the Buster Crabbe version, nor the TV series.
It was made prior to both, in 1935.  The creator of the cartoon
strip decided that it would make a great film.  Unable to sell it to
a studio, he scraped together a little money, and made a ten minute
short version to shop around the studios.  Nothing ever came of it,
and the short was never shown to the public.  Now, years later, the
UCLA Film Archives turned it up, transferred it from nitrate to
safety film, and gave it a public screening.

Unfortunately, it's little more than a curiosity.  No one involved
had the slightest idea about how to make a movie.  Of some historic
interest are the special effects, which contain what is doubtless
the earliest attempt to film a full scale space battle, involving
several dozen space ships.  The effects are primitive in the
extreme, but at least they tried.  Script, acting, and directing are
comically terrible, but not funny enough to justify the effort.

This short may turn up at SF conventions in the future, as a second
print was purchased from UCLA by a small distribution company.  If
anyone is interested, I can probably find out who to contact to book
it.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz (Gary Traveis)
Subject: BANZAI INSTITUTE MESSAGE
Date: 5 Feb 85 05:24:57 GMT

Dianne Wickes (20th C Fox) and Denise Tathwell (Banzai Institute)
will be gathering together L.A. area Buckaroo Banzai fans at the
NUART Theatre * on Friday Feb.  8th for a special MIDNIGHT showing
of Buckaroo Banzai!  This showing will be kicking off a 6 week run
of midnight showings leading up to the release of Buckaroo Banzai on
home video!  Dianne and Denise will be the ones in the TEAM BANZAI
jackets.

If you are out of the area but want to keep in touch with the Banzai
Institute, drop a line (with a SASE) to -

            Banzai Institute
            c/o 20th Century Fox
            PO Box 900
            Beverly Hills, CA 90213

    They want to hear from   Y  O  U  !

    Help TEAM BANZAI keep the world safe from
            evil  and   boredom!

    * The NUART is located at 11272 Santa Monica Blvd.

------------------------------

From: leadsv!chris@topaz (Christopher Salander)
Subject: Two Dunes
Date: 29 Jan 85 02:00:23 GMT

      For those of you who were appalled at the editing of the film
Dune, and the way some characters role's were butchered -
  THERE IS HOPE.  I have heard that there is a *European* version of
Dune.  Supposedly, Europeans are thought to be willing to sit still
longer than Americans, so they often get longer versions of movies.

   Various scenes have been restored or filled out, including:

 1) The banquet scene.
 2) Duncan Idaho's activities on Arrakis.
 3) More of Shadout Mape's activities.
 4) The complete ending, including the various agreements.

   Now, we must lobby the movie studio and the appropriate people to
make sure that the European version of the film is what gets put
onto Video Tape for sale, and/or what gets sold to Cable TV.

   Then we might have a decent movie to watch.  I have always
thought of Duncan Idaho as the hero of Dune (the book), so this
could put the movie on the right track.

------------------------------

From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz
Subject: Doon (the parody) vs. Dune (the movie)
Date: 1 Feb 85 06:36:05 GMT

Just a short note to tell everybody that National Lampoon's "Doon"
is worth your time and money. Especially if you saw the movie. The
parody has more from Dune than the movie does.

        <mike

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland)
Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash"
Date: 31 Jan 85 13:35:57 GMT

> Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone
> that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there
> remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but
> the public just wasn't ready for it!

Sure, I remember it. It was great. I can't decide if I liked the
Bettys or Ficus better. They both had interesting points (If you
know what I mean).
                                Randy Buckland
                                Research Triangle Institute
                                ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 02:52:49-EST
From: geoffrey dov cooper <MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #38

        to be more precise, though this doesn't answer the original
question, quark was the captain of an intergalatic garbage scow, not
truck.  ask anybody along a body of water and they will, hopefully,
tell you that that is the correct term for a sailing garbage
disposal unit.
                            shades@mit-oz

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 85 08:25 EST
Subject: Someone liked "Otherworld"
From: Gocek.henr@XEROX.ARPA

Near the beginning of the first episode of "Otherworld", when the
family finds the road and the little vehicle comes cruising along,
some family members comment that they can't figure out how the car
works.  The father says authoritatively, "It obviously makes use of
an electromagnetic drive system buried beneath the road surface."
(That's not an exact quote, but it's close.)  I let that asinine
script line go, but the totally unlabeled interior of the vehicle
combined with a key that I would not want to try to put into MY
pocket were too much.  You'd think a high tech society like that
could come up with better user interfaces.  I switched to "Trivial
Pursuit".

And the royal wedding of Charles and Diana on "V" was too much.  I
wish Elizardbeth would take over the planet and get it over with.

Gary

Gocek.Henr@Xerox.ARPA (preferably)
or
{seismo, allegra}!rochester!ritcv!ritvp!gwg4776

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Feb 85 1529-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:

         Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Story Request Answered &
                 New Releases (2 msgs),
         Films - The Dungeonmaster & Worst SF Movies,
         Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Integral Trees
Date: 5 Feb 85 08:36:31 GMT

>Unfortunately, I must comment about Integral_ Trees that while I
>DID enjoy it a good deal, it was not up to the usual Niven story.
>The characters were not solving a puzzle, or dealing with any
>difficulty.  Rather, they were tossed about on the winds of fate,
>and given almost no control of their destiny.  The story was mainly
>an exploration of the Smoke Ring, showing the reading how diverse
>and fascinating this place is.
>
>So, while I highly recommend it (as I said, it is great fun...it
>truly is a strange new world the reader gets to see), I do not feel
>that it is up to the standards set by other works from Niven.  I
>hope that the sequel presents a more interesting 'story', now that
>the world has been at least partially explored.

I recently got \\The Integral Trees// myself. I have the same
complaint: the environment is very interesting, but it all seems
quite unmotivated.  Although careful attention was given to the
physical evolution of humans, the aspects of social evolution were
barely considered. As a result, the book seems to me to be the
equivalent of a travelogue with impressive cinematography applied to
marvelous scenery -- but not a person in sight.  This reinforces an
oft-stated assertion of critics that the best stories are stories
about people. This is precisely where \\The Integral Trees// fails:
the environment overshadows the people who live in it.

>Query: What is this new collection of short stories from Niven?
>Are these new stories?
>                               -Andy Gideon

You must be talking about \\Limits//. Mine arrived yesterday. A
perusal of the table of contents reveals three stories and a
short-short by Niven alone, three collaborations (one each with
Jerry Pournelle, Dian Girard, and Steve Barnes), plus five more
tales from the Draco Tavern. This last group includes the title
story.

According to the introduction, only the Draco stories appear to be
completely new. The other stories have appeared in such places as
\\Omni//, \\Amazing//, and various story collections. In the latter
group are two stories set in the Warlock universe, which are
collected in \\More Magic//. This would appear to be a collection of
previously uncollected Warlock stories, but I haven't seen it yet.
Niven says the stories "have appeared", but adds that the book is
"three years overdue". The collection is definitely worth getting.

                                   Bill Laubenheimer
                                   UC-Berkeley Computer Science
...Killjoy went that-a-way--->     ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

From: trsvax!gm@topaz
Subject: Integral Trees query
Date: 4 Feb 85 00:56:00 GMT

A friend of mine and I have just finished reading Niven's "Integral
Trees" and we have a couple of questions.  First, why wasn't the
whole length of the tree covered with foilage instead of just the
two tufts at the ends?  Does it have anything to do with the winds?
And also, if the trees radiated out away from the star like spokes,
why was the gravity at the tufts the same and stronger than that at
the middle of the tree.  I know there was some discussion of this
book when it came out in hardback, so if I am covering old ground I
am sorry.
                                         at the Tandy tuft...
                                               George Moore

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 85 11:15 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Identify This One, Please?

> Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow
>polarized the molecules (atoms?)  of both ship and sun allowing
>those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun.  That's all I
>remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun and
>back out.  Something unusual happened there,but I haven't the
>foggiest idea what anymore.

This sounds kind of like "The Golden Apples of the Sun" by Ray
Bradbury.  This is a short story in the collection by the same name.

Brett Slocum

Slocum.HI-MULTICS.ARPA ...!inhp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 4 February 1985 13:14:25 EST
From: Mike.Blackwell@cmu-ri-rover.arpa
Subject: Re: New from Phantasia Press

Is 'The Kif Strike Back' a new sequel? I thought 'Chanur's Revenge'
was the sequel to 'Chanur's Venture', but perhaps it was really
classified as a continuation.

Can't wait for the new Brin book! He did so well on his first two,
that 'The Practice Effect' was a little bit of a disapointment, even
though it wasn't that bad a book on its own. (Btw, the original
working title for 'Startide Rising' was something like 'The Tides of
Kithrup').

Could someone please send me the address and phone number of
Phantasia Press?

                Thanks!  -m-  (mkb@cmu-ri-rover.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 16:20:59-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Book Notification

For all you lovers of H Beam Piper's Paratime stories, I saw (and
bought) on Saturday

        Roland Green & John F Carr : Great Kings' War

        Ace Science Fiction 0 441 30200 9  $2.95

It is a sequel to Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen.

It's just as good as the original.

Nuff said - buy it, and Down Styphon!

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: "The Dungeonmaster"
Date: 3 Feb 85 09:31:21 GMT

     A lot of times when I leave a movie theater I'm unexcited.  The
picture entertained me, more or less, while it was on, but left
nothing behind.  Fairly often I'm disappointed; the film didn't live
up to my hopes.  Very rarely do I feel cheated, but I felt cheated
after seeing "The Dungeonmaster".

     Understand, now, that I didn't feel cheated after seeing cheesy
fantasy adventure films like "Deathstalker" or "Yor".  I didn't like
them very much, but I didn't feel cheated.  Why, then, did "The
Dungeonmaster", a film for which I had very low expectations,
disappoint me?  It's an audition, or, more precisely, several
auditions.  They made me pay to see a bunch of auditions, and most
of those auditioning aren't talented.  Throw in the fact that the
film is only 65 minutes long, and even at bargain matinee prices I
was cheated.  I would have been cheated if I saw it for free.

     The auditioners are seven directors and a special effects
company.  My best guess about the genesis of this film is that seven
people just out of film school got together, pooled some rather
meager resources, and decided to make a film to demonstrate their
talents.  So far, so good.  However, they neglected to include in
their efforts the one element which impoverished filmmakers can
afford to indulge in: imagination.  There is not one tiny bit of
imagination in this film.  It is shoddily written and shoddily
directed.

     The film is divided up into a framing story and seven segments.
The framing story is stupid and dull at first, then it improves:
it's just stupid and nearly tolerable.  The seven segments are
ripoffs.  The most entertaining thing one can do while watching "The
Dungeonmaster" is to decide which films each segment was ripped off
from.  There's a Ray Harryhausen ripoff; a mad slasher ripoff which
if it weren't so close on the heels of "The Terminator" would also
play as a ripoff of that film; a wax museum horror movie ripoff; a
"Road Warrior" ripoff which starts with a ripoff from "Close
Encounters"; a "Living Dead" film ripoff; and there's also a ripoff
of a scene from "The Empire Strikes Back".

     Each segment is directed by a different person.  There was no
mention of which of them directed the framing sequence, which is
hardly fair, since the seven segments account for no more than 40
minutes of the very brief running time.  For those not in a
mathematical mood, that's a little over 5 minutes a segment.  With
the exception of Stephen Ford, who contributes the mad slasher
segment, none of them show any visible display of talent.  If this
is the best they can do, they'd better seriously consider going into
the haberdashery business.  Ford's segment, while no more original
in plot than the others, does show some interesting visual choices.
If he had more time and a reasonable story to work with, perhaps he
might have come up with something worthwhile.  As for the others,
since they mostly wrote their own "stories", if you can consider
five minutes a story, they have no one but themselves to blame.

     The framing story is quite ridiculous.  This dolt who,
apparently as a result of an experiment, can "plug in", whatever
that means, to his ever-so-intelligent computer is whisked off by
some sort of baddy to engage in a contest for the latter's
amusement.  The baddy may be a wizard, he may be a demon, he may be
the devil himself.  If the filmmakers ever decided which, they
neglected to include their choice in the script.  At any rate, this
villainous bozo fits up the heroic bozo with a weird costume and a
link to his computer.  What can the computer do for him?  Anything
the filmmakers feel is convenient at the moment.  Need to fry a
nasty?  Gee whiz, it can shoot laser beams at the touch of a button.
Need to counter an apparition of a dragon?  Well, our friendly
computer can do that, too.  About to fall over a cliff?  Not to
worry, the computer will project a solid beam of energy for you to
hold onto.  Worried about where your imperiled sweetie will be when
the mad slasher tries to kill her?  No sweat, the computer can
predict it.  Talk about deus ex machina.

     Perhaps something could be salvaged if the plentiful directors
had been talented.  They aren't.  With the exception of Ford, none
of them demonstrate any facility for shooting any sort of scene
whatsoever.  I will do them a favor by not listing their names.
Were I they, I would adopt a new professional name so that I was not
associated with this debacle.

     The only good thing about "The Dungeonmaster" is that a few of
the effects are passable.  Just like the plots, though, these are
ripoffs.  A stop-motion animation figure is obviously a little more
than inspired by Harryhausen's creations.  Even so, it's not bad
stop motion animation.  Not great, but not bad.  A nasty puppet
called Ratspit obviously owes something to "The Dark Crystal" and
perhaps even to "Gremlins".  The energy zaps that the effects people
are so fond of have appeared in a dozen space operas.  The gruesome
makeups aren't new either.  In short, Makeup and Mechanical
Imageries Inc., and makeup artist John Buechler have made it clear
that they are to be considered if you want low budget,
unexceptional, unoriginal special effects.  Remember, this is the
good part of the film.  The actors, who I will spare by not naming,
do their best and are not to be blamed, but are definitely not in
the picture-saving range.  The cinematography is passable but
undistinguished.

     As previously stated, the film is only a little over an hour
long.  The theater I saw it with felt so ashamed that they padded it
with a short, almost unheard of nowadays.  I can get angry at this
running time two ways: it's too short and it's too long.  Asking
people to pay five or six bucks for one hour's entertainment is
almost criminal.  On the other hand, it would be nearly as bad if
they padded the film with any more of this idiocy.

     It's taken me longer to write one pass at this review than it
did to see "The Dungeonmaster".  Why waste this time?  Because I
want to warn you.  Don't see this film!  It is absolutely worthless
and deserves to sink into oblivion without making a nickel.  In
fact, please do me a favor and tell your friends not to see it
either.  Complete outrages against cinema should be punished, and
this is the only way to do it.  Well, maybe not the only way.  If
any of you out in netland just happen to know anyone connected
with this film, please be so kind as to personally tell them for me
that their film sucked and that I think they should be ashamed of
themselves.  While you're at it, make sure that they pass the
message on to all of the other people involved with the film.  I
fervently hope that someone, preferably someone who had intimate
connections with the making of "The Dungeonmaster", takes a huge
financial bath on this film.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Feb 1985 08:19-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Re the worst SF movies...

        Can we consider the 20 or so GODZILLA movies in this 
category...or are these just taken for granted as being on the 
list...GODZILLA vs. KING KONG, GODZILLA vs the SMOG MONSTER, GODZILLA
VS the ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW (now theres a thought)...and even
GODZILLA vs. BAMBI (which was actually very good!)
                                        wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 5 Feb 85 18:53:58 GMT

One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a
number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy,
with duties to perform in the running of the Village, and
subordinates under his control, and for whom he should be
responsible. This doesn't jibe with the reason for him being put in
there. I recall him being pressured to take part in certain Village
activities, and otherwise "play his role", which he resisted. Having
an uncooperative low-numbered person would put a crimp (cramp?) in
the functioning of the Village. I always thought it would have been
better if he had been "Number 47" or "Number 238" or something,
instead of "Number 6".

Will Martin

USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin     or
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 6 Feb 85 03:36:54 GMT

> One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a
> number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy,
> with duties to perform in the running of the Village, and
> subordinates under his control, and for whom he should be
> responsible. This doesn't jibe with the reason for him being put
> in there. I recall him being pressured to take part in certain
> Village activities, and otherwise "play his role", which he
> resisted. Having an uncooperative low-numbered person would put a
> crimp (cramp?) in the functioning of the Village. I always thought
> it would have been better if he had been "Number 47" or "Number
> 238" or something, instead of "Number 6".

You are forgetting that no one was above suspicion in the village,
even number two.  Remember the last two episodes, where they show
the underground chambers?  To my mind, they were an intentional
counterpart to the observation room, which they resembled somewhat.
I.e., in the observation room you had the "rotating see-saw
cameras", while below ground, where the people who really ran
things were, you had the rotating see-saw machine guns.

                                      John L. Templer
                                University of Texas at Austin
    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

                 "and they called it, yuppy love."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Feb 85 1457-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Silverberg & Vance &
                       Zelazny (3 msgs) & New Releases,
               Films - Worst SF Movie (4 msgs),
               Television - Quark (3 msgs) & 
                       Overdrawn at the Memory Bank

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 85 13:13:56 EST
From: Jeffrey Allred ( RAMD-STU ) <allred@Amsaa.ARPA>
Subject: Piers Anthony

Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony?  I think he's great.  His
best work is done with the Xanth series.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 85 13:08 EST
From: Mark F Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Majipoor Chronicles

Hello..
Has anyone out there read the "Majipoor Chronicles", by Robert
Silverberg?  There are three books (so far?) in the series..
1: "Lord Valentine's Castle"
2: "The Majipoor Chronicles"
3: "Valentine Pontifex"
I think these books were very imaginative and entertaining.  My
favorite authors are Jack C. Chalker, Robert Silverberg, Juanita
Coulson, Jose' Farmer("Riverworld"), Andre Norton, and Ray Bradbury.

My selections for the best SF movies are(not in order of
preference): Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T., Star Wars and
(though more on the fantasy side) Raiders of the Lost Ark.

See ya
Mark Rand  (Tigqc356@Cunyvm)

------------------------------

From: aecom!sanders@topaz (Jeremy Sanders)
Subject: Re: Magnus Ridolph
Date: 7 Feb 85 00:04:02 GMT

> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin )
> Could someone give me pointers to Jack Vance's Magnus Ridolph
> stories?

The stories are available from DAW in paperback under the title (I
think) "The Adventures of Magnus Ridolf". All those stories and two
more appear in a hardcover book "The Complete Magnus Ridolf"

                                        Jeremy Sanders
{ihnp4|spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!sanders

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 85 11:13:39 EST (Tuesday)
Subject: Zelazny
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>

"And Call Me Conrad..." is available as "This Immortal", not as
"Roadmarks".  "Roadmarks" is the one about the road through time,
dragons, DeSade &c.  It's rather interesting & amusing, but not up
to his usual standards.
                                Chris

------------------------------

From: duke!ndd@topaz (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From
Date: 3 Feb 85 22:43:09 GMT

>Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find
>"And Call Me Conrad.."  it was more recently published as
>"Roadmarks". A must read.
>
>Brad Miller
>...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax,ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm

No, "Roadmarks" is not "...And Call Me Conrad", which appeared in
F&SF in 1965, and in a longer form as the novel "This Immortal".
"Roadmarks" is an entirely different beast, but definitely a must
read for Zelazny fans, and highly recommended for other sf readers.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

------------------------------

From: chenr%tilt.FUN@topaz (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From
Date: 5 Feb 85 08:25:28 GMT

> Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find
> "And Call Me Conrad.." it was more recently published as
> "Roadmarks".
>  A must read.
>
> Brad Miller
> ...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm

"And Call Me Conrad" was re-released as "This Immortal".  Definitely
a good read.  "Roadmarks" is also pretty good.

Ray Chen
princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

Date: Tue 5 Feb 85 11:16:34-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: New Books

Books received in Palo Alto:

Ace  (officially, March titles, but Ace runs a month ahead)

Casca 13:   The Assassin          Barry Sadler new novel 2.75
Great King's War                  Roland Green/John F. Carr 2.9
    The sequel to H. Beam Piper's Lord Kalvin of Otherwhen
The Song of Mavin Manyshapes      Sheri S. Tepper new novel 2.75
To Demons Bound  :1               Robert Vardeman/George Proctor 2.75
Sunsmoke                          James Killus new 2.75
Sabazel                           Lillian Stewart Carl new 2.75
A Judgement of Dragons            Phyllis Gotlieb reprint 2.95
   The third of the trilogy is coming in a few months
Agent of Terran Empire            Poul Anderson reprint 2.75
   getting ready for the novel about Flandry's daugther
Retief Unbound                    Keith Laumer reprint 2.95
East of Midnight (MagicQuest 15)  Tanith Lee new 2.25

Signet
Galaxies Like Grains of Sand      Brian Aldiss reprint 2.75

DAW
A Bait of Dreams                  Jo Clayton new 3.50
The Gorgon                        Tanith Lee new 2.95
The Vizier's Second Daughter      Robert F. Young new 2.50
Fugitive in Transit               Edward Llewellyn new 2.95
The Douglas Connection            " reprint 2.50
Prelude to Chaos                  " reprint 2.95
Salvage and Destroy               " reprint 2.95
Bright Companion                  " reprint 2.50

I just received the new LOCUS magazine.  It contains their
recommended reading list for novels, nonfiction, and shorter
fiction.

Randy  NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 85 10:39:45-EST (Wed)
From: Judith Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: Star Wars

I am appalled that more people haven't leaped to Star Wars' defense.
True, Star Wars & co. is an old sory-line...the oldest...but that
doesn't mean that it's not good.

Star Wars deserves a lot of credit.  It was magic in a time when we
needed magic.  It was a fantasy when life was forcing us to be the
strictest pragmatists.  Lucas presented the tale of boy-meets-girl,
etc. in a way that was and is most charming, to almost anyone except
those who refuse to be "led astray" into a suspension of willing
disbelief.

I don't want to force anyone into being enchanted.  I read a review
once - I don't remember where - where the reviewer waxed absolutely
lyrical about Star Wars to a friend of his.

"What's it about" his friend asked.  And for some reason he couldn't
answer that.  I know how he feels.  If you had asked me, I would
have classified it as a fantasy, and on the strength of that alone
it should not be even nominated for wors SF movie ever.

I don't see why with all the other ruly gross and horrible SF movies
floating around, anyone would even consider Star Wars.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 85 13:23:41 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Oh Rocky!
From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

I always wake up the next morning regretting having made a light
hearted response to a topic that others take seriously.

>I'm sorry, but I don't like to become a 'conformist'.  After a
>while, I'd get tired of saying "Where's your $%&{Saturn symbol}!#
>neck!" over and over again.

Gosh!  Did I say to see RHPS in a theater?  To shout things back at
the screen in unison with others?  To conform to anything?  I just
said to see it a few times.  I accomplish this in the privacy of my
own home with my VCR, a machine with which I've managed to maintain
a civil, non-shouting relationship.

>This is true, but I do not agree with the requirement about low
>budgets.

Please re-read the original message.  Low budget was not a
requirement, it was merely one of three possible classifications:
a,b or c.  I am perfectly willing to concede that there are many
classifications possible in addition to the three I proposed.

May I go home now?
/Mary

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 1985 15:58:53-EST
From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday
Subject: Worst of SF

    While I agree that 'Plan 9' and other Wood specials are
terrible; that is really excusable because they were grade-C
pictures.  When they were made, the standard theatres showed
newsreels, cartoons, one-reelers, a serial or two, and the featured
film.  These (grade-C) movies were just used as fillers, and nobody
took them seriously.

    Now, my nomination for the Worst SF movie of all time is (drum
roll) 'The Final Countdown'.  A movie which gives new meaning to the
word 'pointless'.  A modern day aircraft carrier is transported
(deus ex machina) to the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor.  The
entire movie is spent deciding whether to believe what has happened,
and then deciding what to do about it.  Finally, when they decide to
stop the attack they are (deus ex machina) transported back to the
present.  An all-star cast!  A huge budget!  A moron writer!  Come
to think of it, that describes 'Dune' rather nicely.

Robert Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday)

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Bad sf films
Date: 5 Feb 85 00:14:52 GMT

One of my all-time favorite truly bad SF films is called "Mesa Of
Lost Women." It's about a mad Dr. Arania who transplants the brains
of spiders into people. There's a plane crash on a mesa, Jackie
Coogan as a madman passenger, all the spider women are large and the
spider men are small...

   FEMALE LEAD: "Gasp!!?!"

   MALE LEAD: "What's the matter?"

   FEMALE LEAD: "I don't know... I could have sworn the woods
                are full of giant women and tiny little men..."

I don't think I've gotten the dialogue right, but I'm sure you catch
my drift.

Oh, yes, there's a voice-over explaining the "plot," and the musical
background consists of a very bad solo Flamenco guitarist. Many
close-up shots of leering tiny spider men and ultra-seductive spider
women.  Check it out if it comes on Creature Feature.

------------------------------

Date: 04 Feb 85 18:54:02 PST (Mon)
Subject: Quark/Otherworld
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

Hi folks.
        OK, here's the scam on Quark, from a guy who saw all the
episodes at a con here in LA not too far back and thinks they are
marvelous.  Every show had side jokes, spoken or just hiding on the
set somewhere.  Richard Benjamin played one Commander Adam Quark,
fearless captain of a Sanitation Ship.  He always wanted a real
mission ( to go off and fight Gorgons ), and the Head ( who was just
a head ) always gave him garbage duty.
        The first officer was a direct Spock parody, an emotionless
plant man, a Vegeton I think.  His name was Phicus Panderota, which
if my Latin serves, is botanical for a pansy ( no kidding ).  There
was one scene in one episode where a bad guys daughter told Phicus
that he had to mate with her, or she would have quark killed.  The
process involved laying on one's back, on the floor, arms and legs
in the air.  Phicus then began to make noises like
"beee-beeeee-beeeeeee...".  Girl asks 'What are you doing now ? '.
Vegeton answers, 'Calling the bee.'
        The other main character was Gene/Jean, a transmorg.  His
body never changed ( the actor was male ), but his personality kept
shifting from a bold 'When're we gonna go blast us some Gorgies,
Commander ?!!' to 'Ooh, I wonder if Gorgons like flowers ?'  Gene
wasn't to bright.
        Twins by the name of Barnstable played Betty and Betty, the
ship's requirement of beautifull girl in small amounts of clothing.
They did this very well.

        The show was mainly a Star Trek rip, with episodes dealing
from a disease that makes you grow old, to the ship being split into
good and bad pairs after passing through a black hole.  Quark had
this habit of looking into the camera and making Star Notes, like
'Star note: Phicus is WEIRD.', after the plant explained that he had
a pressure gauge in his ear so that he could monitor his internal
hydrolic pressure.  See, if the pressure drops too low his legs turn
brown and fall off...
        Oh, and to answer somebody else's recent question, Quark's
boss back at the Star Base was indeed played by the same fella who
played Mindy's father in Mork and Mindy.  His name was Otto
Palindrome. ( Hee-yuk )

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 1985 15:58:53-EST
From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday
Subject: Worst of SF

    'Quark' was not bad SF, but very good satire.  Each episode
spoofed a different SF cliche.  There was the StarWars epsiode with
a talking (and very fallible) SOURCE (played by Hans Conreid).
There was the Ultimate Computer episode which forced Cmdr. Quark to
enter the ship through the space-baggie door, and ended with the
disconnected computer tumbling through space to the tune of the Blue
Danube.  My favorite episode had a scene where Ficus Ponderata was
'cross-pollinating' with the daughter of the evil Emperor: they were
lying on their backs with their limbs in the air, calling the bee!

Robert Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday)

'Ficus... I ... I ... I think I can feel the bee coming ...'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 85 12:53:38 pst
From: robert@sri-spam (Robert Allen)
Subject: Quark.

Yes, the first episode WAS the best.  Gene/Jean was really the best
character, particularly when he was playing the ultra-macho male
character.  Remember what happened when he was in the elevator on
the Gorgon ship, and about 7 Gorgon guards got into the elevator as
well?  Even funnier was his hand to hand attack on the Gorgon
barracks, complete with < 30 Gorgon guards.  Guess he/she just
couldn't resist a scrap.

Remember, "UNITED GALAXYS FOREVER!!",

R.J.A.

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: PBS's "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" (small spoiler)
Date: 5 Feb 85 18:56:15 GMT

I saw the PBS version of "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" last night
and thought I'd get my two-cents in before anyone else does (at this
end of the net, anyway).

First, let me say that Varley has long been one of my favorite
authors, and I've read everything of his I could get my hands on to
date.

Having read the short story that the PBS production was supposedly
based on, I can understand why little mention was made of Varley in
the promos or credits.  With the exception of one or two superficial
scenes, there is virtually NO RELATION between the short story and
the TV version.

To those of you who saw the TV version and have not yet read
anything by Varley: do not be deceived or discouraged.  Varley's
writing is vastly better than the cliched, predictable, formula
tripe they "based" on his work.  [***SPOILER***: Did anyone notice
they stole the ending from "The Shockwave Rider" by another author
altogether?  ***ENDSPOILER***] I don't know what it is about TV and
film producers that drives them to tamper with genius, but I suspect
they'd revise the Mona Lisa and the Last Supper if they could get
their hands on them.

The TV version completely ignores Varley's universe and comes up
with it's own hackneyed premise of a world controlled by giant,
impersonal corporations, one of which will go bankrupt if they can't
find the hero's body, lost in one of their amusement parks.  (Can
you see any major amusement park going broke because someone was
injured, or even killed, there?)  Meanwhile the personality of
Fingal, the hero, is read into the corporation's computer to keep
him from deteriorating.  This is about the only resemblance to
Varley's work apart from a scene where he's being prepared for his
two day vacation in the body of an animal and a later scene where
the heroine, Apollonia, commands him to quit messing with the
computer from the inside.  Virtually everything else in the TV
version came from the mind of the screenplay writer, who should be
ashamed of himself.

My advice to those who care about such things is to get some of
Varley's books and find out how good his writing really is.  Read
the original "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" and pity the television
producers and writers who couldn't recognize a good thing when they
had one.

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Feb 85 2206-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & Cherryh (2 msgs) & Nourse &
                    Story Request & A Story Request Answered,
            Films - Worst SF Movie (4 msgs) & The Tunnel,
            Television - Foxfire & The Prisoner (2 msgs) & 
                    Quark (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Science Fiction Book Club (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dukee!eu.kvp@topaz
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide: The Fourth Book
Date: 5 Feb 85 18:34:49 GMT

     I seem to recall a request for information on this newsgroup
about the fourth book by Douglas Adams in the Hitchhiker's Guide
series.  I ran across it the other day, and although I haven't read
it (yet) myself, I've been told it's pretty good.  The title is:
     "So Long, and Thanks for the Fish"
or something to that effect.
     Any input on a fifth book to come, and how good this one is?

                                    Kathy Van Putte
                                    (@ Duke Engineering)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 09:40:23 pst
From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
To: Mike.Blackwell@cmu-ri-rover.ARPA
Subject: Re: Phantasia Press

        Chanur's Revenge has indeed been changed to "The Kif Strike
Back".  As to the WHY, I can only guess it is a "joke" with "Revenge
of the Jedi" changing to "Return"....
        Be aware that Phantasia will charge you $40.00 for a copy,
it will be one of about 400 signed on acid free paper.

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 7 February 1985 11:54:36 EST
From: Mike.Blackwell@cmu-ri-rover.arpa
To: kalash%ucbingres@ucb-vax.arpa (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Phantasia Press

Thanks for the info. The reason I was wondering was that I just
finished Chanur's Venture, and it ended (right when it was getting
good!) with the note "to be continued in Chanur's Revenge." I didn't
realize this when I had bouht it, outherwise I would have waited. I
guess the title has since changed to The Kif Strike Back. Can't
wait! (Might have to shell out real bucks for it, though, unless Daw
plans to come out with a PB version soon).

                cheers, -m-

------------------------------

From: denelcor!lmc@topaz (Lyle McElhaney)
Subject: Re: Book Identification -- "Star Surgeon" by Nourse
Date: 6 Feb 85 04:09:27 GMT

> It is the second in a series of three books, the first one titled
> _Hospital Station_.  The third title I have forgotten, but the
> books are highly recommended!

Only three? [quick run downstairs to paperback library] AHA!!! I see
the following:

Sector General books:

        Star Surgeon                    1963    novel
        The Aliens Among Us             1969    collection
        Major Operation                 1971    collection
        Ambulance Ship                  1979    novel
        Sector General                  1983    collection
        Star Healer                     1984    novel

other SF:
        Deadly Litter                   1964    collection
        All Judgement Fled              1969    novel
        Tomorrow Is Too Far             1971    novel
        Lifeboat                        1972    novel
        Dream Millenium                 1973    novel
        Esacpe Orbit                    1983    novel

and I noticed that there are two more titles that I haven't seen:
The Watch Below and Monsters and Medics.

Lyle McElhaney
{hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!regard@topaz (Adrienne Regard)
Subject: Help finding a title
Date: 6 Feb 85 22:22:03 GMT

Can anyone remember a book of short stories, at least 20 years old,
containing "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul"?  About a man who sailed a
space ship powered by solar power, and aged 40 years in the transit.
The ship carried people in suspended animation to a new planet light
years away.  So, the guy who ran the ship aged 40 years while his
passengers did not.  Anyway, he met this woman who fell in love with
him, so she sailed on one of these ships back to the original
destination so that they would be the same age, and this would
overcome his scruples toward their relationship.  That's a pretty
lousy explanation of a wonderfully romantic story, but I hope it
sounds familiar?

The lead story and the book title were the same and had something to
do with drug expanded consciousness -- MindBender? MindBreaker?
Something like that.  Any clues?  THANKS!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 15:34:50 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Identify This One, Please?

> Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow
>polarized the molecules (atoms?)  of both ship and sun allowing
>those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun.  That's all I
>remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun and
>back out.

I'm SURE this is <The Weather Man> or its sequel, both short stories
by an author whose name escapes me at the moment.  The premise to
both is that Earth's weather is controlled by adjusting the
temperature of the surface of the Sun.  There are computers working
out what to do to the Sun to produce the desired effect, and bases
and ships on the Sun to dump "cold" gases (either carbon or oxygen)
to produce the effect.  <The Weather Man> involves an attempt to
satisfy the last request of a dying man, to see snow fall at his
home in southern California, and the sequel has the Weather Bureau
trying to avert the destruction of the Sun by travelling all the way
down to its core.  Sure, sounds pretty implausible, but I was really
impressed by the idea when I read these as a child.

I still can't remember the author's name!  Ah well.  Hope this is of
some help.
                                                --Pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 10:05:52 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: The Rocky Road To Fame

Hey, continuity lovers -- the scene with RoHoPiSho in Fame has them
going to a showing where folks are all costumed up, prepared with
water pistols, umbrellas, matches, etc. and reciting lines from
their seats.  I.e., Rocky and his friends must already have been a
cult scene (or what would have been the point in what was basically
a documentary movie?).

Yours till the Worm turns.
DPDern

------------------------------

From: uvm-gen!cs102dbp@topaz (no name yet)
Subject: Worst movie version of an SF book
Date: 7 Feb 85 02:03:34 GMT

   The movie in question is 'Hide and Seek.' If you loved (or even
liked!)  The Adolescence of P-1, you'll despise this movie.
   Although parts of the book were used as a basis for the movie,
whoever wrote the script had no idea what they were doing or saying.
   First, Gregory is a teen-ager in the movie. Second, the movie
lasts all of one hour. Third, the treatment of computers was
unrealistic, unlike the marvelous details of the book and the
obvious expertise of the author, J. Ryan.
   Overall, I thought the movie was interesting but non-worthwhile.

   Damon Poole
   University of Vermont

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann)
Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made
Date: 6 Feb 85 17:30:05 GMT

How can you call Day of the Triffids a bad Sci-fi movie? I thought
it was quite good and it is certainly far above the likes of Mars
needs women, etc.
M. McCann

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz
Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **)
Date: 5 Feb 85 23:48:31 GMT

Of course they are Time Lords!  The beach-ball was their equivalent
to K-9!

"Let there be light!"

Gary

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: The Tunnel (spoiler, but you'll probably never see the
Subject: movie)
Date: 7 Feb 85 03:57:25 GMT

>>Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The
>>Transatlantic Tunnel.  ...  For a 1930's sf movie, it wasn't that
>>bad -- but there were some nice howlers.  ...  ONE BILLION metric
>>TONS of spoil that you have to dispose of...  was simply ignored!

ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast):

> And just think of their surprise when they tunnel through the
> Mid-Atlantic Ridge!  Ever tried tunneling through an *active*
> volcano?

As a matter of fact, this is exactly what happens!

The British tunneling crew encounters a region of extreme heat, and
they figure it's probably a volcano, but they go ahead anyway.
Disaster does not strike, and minutes later*, they emerge into safer
temperatures and immediately break through and link up with the
American crew!

  *when you're digging a transatlantic tunnel, you have to drill
fast...

So even though the authors* couldn't've known about the Mid-Atlantic
Ridge, they not only put in a volcano, but in the right place!

  *Screenplay by Kurt Siodmak --both the German and the English
   movies--from a 1913 German novel by B. Kellermann.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: "The epic SF novel <insert favorite> come to ABC this
Subject: week..."
Date: 4 Feb 85 21:11:11 GMT

For those of you who are discussing your favorite SF story you'd
like to see as a miniseries on TV, consider:

1.  In a recent edition of TV Guide, an interview with the producer
of the new female-spies show, "Code name: Foxfire" had this gem
(paraphrased, as I don't have the article with me):

"We are NOT going to be another "Charlie's Angels".  We are striving
for realism.  We are more like a female version of, "The A Team."

The article in TV Guide added an editorial comment: "Which proves
what passes for reality in Hollywood."  The comment was made on the
net, as to how one of the prospective "DUNE" directors wanted to
introduce a subplot of incest between Paul and his mother... are you
ready for what they'll do to your favorite?

2.  Hollywood is a very closed society... if a studio is going to do
a miniseries, they will want someone experienced, with a track
record.  Who is the most likely candidate for selection as producer?

    GLEN LARSON... as in "Battlestar Galaxative" and "Duck Dogers"!

Consider... he has his own production company, and his series have
lasted a total of 4+ years on TV.

Are you SURE you want to see your favorite epic on the idiot box???

                                                 Ron Wanttaja
                                             (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

"Be careful what you ask for... you may get it..."

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 5 Feb 85 00:48:54 GMT

      Just thought I'd add my two cents to this news.  Our PBS
station here in Philadelphia started showing The Prisoner about 8
weeks ago, and I am enjoying it immensely.  It was recommended to me
the last time it was shown and I checked it out, but I was only a
mere 13 years old at the time, and couldn't appreciate it.  Take
note that episode 7 ("Many Happy Returns") is exceptionally good --
the best of the series that I have seen so far, so don't miss it if
you haven't seen it.

          The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the
balloon-like entity which guards the perimeter of the village.  The
way I see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very clever
No. 6 from escaping the island, but is this really believeable?  Or
am I being unreasonably picky?
                               Any thoughts on this?

David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar)        St. Joseph's University
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci  Philadelphia

"A witty saying proves nothing. "                       --Voltaire

------------------------------

From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 6 Feb 85 19:12:17 GMT

>  The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the balloon-
> like entity which guards the perimeter of the village.  The way I
> see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very clever No. 6
> from escaping the island, but is this really believeable?  Or am I
> being unreasonably picky?
>  Any thoughts on this?

I love this show!  Except for ROVER, though, I wouldn't call it SF.
I am not in Philly now, so a friend of mine is taping the entire
series for me.  When I go home, I watch about 3-4 hours straight of
it.  About ROVER.  I find him silly.  Many times you can see the
string pulling him along the water, but I don't mind.  When you love
a show you take a lot of things as givens.  ROVER could have been
done more convincingly, but such is life in the Village.  I hope
they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at least get him
rescued.  Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is?  Not
that many places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely rains,
never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.  Whaddya think?

"I am a MAN, not a number!!"          -Number Six

-Michael  "on the Twilight Node"  Weiss
...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann)
Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash"
Date: 4 Feb 85 17:57:58 GMT

I remember the series Quark but I can't remember who wrote it. If
memory still serves me, it was about an interplanetary garbage
collector and his adventures while keeping the galaxy clean. It did
seem rather funny, but it didn't last to long.
M McCann

------------------------------

From: ihopb!suem@topaz (Sue McKinnell)
Subject: Quark
Date: 7 Feb 85 19:21:31 GMT

The current discussion on the TV show Quark has triggered my memory.
I believe Buck Henry was one of those who thought up the show with
Richard Benjamin.  I have a vague memory of one or both of them
talking about it as an upcoming show on another show, maybe SNL or
Johnny Carson.

BTW, Conrad Janis did NOT play the mass-murderer in the Star Trek
show "Wolf in the Fold."

Sue McKinnell
...!ihnp4!ihu1h!suem
IH 4B166  x2361

------------------------------

From: akgua!tlh@topaz (T.L. Harris [Tom])
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 5 Feb 85 15:56:44 GMT

I've been a member of the Si-Fi book club for over ten years.  They
don't get the new titles right away, but their selection of all
titles is quite good. They usually have the better books eventually.
I can wait! Additionally, their prices have always been reasonable.

If you want new titles immediately, you will get no bargains.  If
you can wait, this is not a bad deal! My collection is probably up
to 300 books now, and I'm still backlogged on reading.

                From the Pond of the Phrog
                akgua!AT**3

------------------------------

From: wlcrjs!lazeldes@topaz (Leah A Zeldes)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 8 Feb 85 00:45:00 GMT

When the SF Book Club's editions cost $1.49 and paperbacks were
$1.98, it was a good deal.  Now that they've raised their prices so
much, it isn't worth what you pay for those cheap editions.  Better
to save your money for the hardcover, or buy a paperback reading
copy.
                                Leah A Zeldes
                                ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!lazeldes

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Feb 85 2232-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 9 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:

             Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs),
             Films - The Perils of Gwendoline & Rocky Horror &
                     Best SF Movie & 1984,
             Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 04:42:03 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: ELLISON / DEATHBIRD / QUESTION (help) <mild spoiler>
Cc: seismo!rlgvax!idmi-cc!andrew@utah-cs

>From Andrew R. Scholnick (idmi-cc!andrew):
>
>One of my all time favorite science fiction works was the DEATHBIRD
>by Harlan "the little monster" Ellison.  ...  My only problem with
>it was the 'dedication' at the end ...  I can't figure it out.  ...
>Anyone out there know what I'm talking about and have an answer?
>...

<A bit of a spoiler for 'The Deathbird' follows...>

For me the dedication explained the whole story.  If it wasn't for
the dedication the story wouldn't have had the impact it did on me;
I shed a few tears the first time I read it, and a few more
re-reading it just now...  You'll never understand without going to
the source: I suggest A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT
for the snake's point of view, and NO. 44, THE MYSTERIOUS STRANGER
for the human's.  I've just recently been reading MARK TWAIN'S
MYSTERIOUS STRANGER MANUSCRIPTS (edited from the Mark Twain Papers
at Berkeley by William Gibson) and if you're lucky enough to track
this volume down in a library somewhere, you'll have an amazing
time.  Ellison's 'The Deathbird' is a very nice story, but for me it
simply doesn't compare to STRANGER...  If you ever wonder what made
Twain the way he was, I suggest you read THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MARK
TWAIN, a document that is surprisingly entertaining and surprisingly
touching as well.

As long as I'm here, I though I might share a fragment from the
Papers that is included in STRANGER MANUSCRIPTS.  In ragged
manuscript form it reads a bit like verse, so I'll present it as a
kind of 'found poetry':

        The rain continued to beat softly on the panes,
        & the wind to sigh & wail about the eaves.
        In the room there was no sound;
        both of us remained buried in thought.
        After a long time I roused myself
        & took up the thread where it had been
        broken off:

                'My perhaps over-warm eulogy
                of the character of my race,
                & my praise of its noble struggle
                against heavy odds toward higher
                & ever higher
                moral & spiritual summits,

                'have not won from you even
                the slender kindness of a comment.'

        The Prince of Darkness answered gravely --

                'Is not silence a comment?'

        I had invited that thrust,
        & was ashamed.

A Twain fan,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 13:11:25 est
From: markl@mit-borax (Mark Lambert)
Subject: Ellison's 'Deathbird' dedication

>   One of my all time favorite science fiction works was the
>DEATHBIRD by Harlan "the little monster" Ellison...  ...My only
>problem with it was the 'dedication' at the end, (for those of you
>who haven't read it I won't ?spoil? it for you by printing it here)
>I can't figure it out.  Nothing in that story happened without a
>reason!  Having little knowledge of the person referred to, and
>little more of his works, I have never been able to understand the
>significance of the last line... the 'dedication'.

                     **** SPOILER WARNING ****

I believe the dedication at the end of 'Deathbird' is in reference
to something Mark Twain once said, to the effect that if God did
indeed put us on this earth and permitted all our wars, suffering,
etc., then he must have been insane...

                                Mark Lambert
                                markl@mit-borax.arpa

"So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell
Blue skies from pain"

------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 Feb 85 22:20:16-PST
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: _Integral_Trees_

The "gravity" at the tufts of the Trees was caused (as the
characters often said without understanding) by tides.  A tide is
acceleration caused by an orbital velocity different from the
velocity required at the given distance from the primary <gasp>
<gasp> (I said all that?).

The entire tree was in orbit around the primary (Levoy's Star).  The
entire tree was kilometers (hundreds of kilometers?) long, yet it
could only move at one velocity (without breaking apart).  Remember,
now, that the inner tuft should be moving faster than the outer
tuft, given that is is closer to the primary.  If the inner tuft
moved too slowly, it would be pulled inward.  If the outer tuft
moved too quickly, it would fly off into space.  Thus, at a certain
velocity, the inward and outward forces over the entire tree sum out
to zero, and presto-zappo, you have one tree in orbit.

But there are people in the tufts, moving at the given tuft's speed,
therefore subject to the same inward or outward force that the tuft
is subject to.  The tree is balanced, but the people are not.  Thus,
the people would always tend to fall away from the center of the
tree.  Tidal Gravity.

Pretty good, huh?  No wonder no one liked grading my physics papers.

                                Andy Gideon
                                Gideon@SU-SCORE.ARPA

"Claave!  Feed it to the treeee!"

"Hi Erica Liebman"  8-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 15:20:35 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #44

In reply to George Moore's questions about Integral trees, which
were:
1) Why does the tree only have foliage at the ends? and
2) Why is the gravity at the tufts the same and stronger than that
at the middle of the tree?

The answer (to both questions) is: Tidal forces.  Niven first
brought this idea up in the story <Neutron Star>.  What happens is
that the (angular) orbital velocity at the radius of the out end of
the tree is less than that at the in end.  Since both ends must have
the same angular velocity, the in end winds up traveling too slowly
for its orbit, and thus is pulled towards Voy, while the out end
travels too quickly and is pulled outwards by "centrifugal force"
(Yeah--I know--I've had two years of college physics, so I know it's
not real, but hey, you can feel it just as well whether it's real or
not).

This also accounts for the winds at either end, since the air IS
going at orbital velocity.  A major purpose of the tufts is to
filter debris out of the wind, and pull it into the treemouth.  This
doesn't work nearly as well towards the middle of the tree, where
there is much less wind.  The tufts must also be photosynthetic, but
I imagine that if the tree gets enough nutrition from the end tufts,
it isn't worthwhile to support even more greenery.

I hope these are the kind of answers you wanted!

While I'm here, I may as well add a few comments about the book as a
book: Overall, I enjoyed it, but there was a lack of
characterization; it seems to me that this is a general problem with
Niven's more recent work.  Niven's most memorable characters, to me,
are still Gil Hamilton and Louis Wu.

Some of the dialogue at the beginning was frighteningly similar to
that uttered by cardboard fantasy-novel heroes, but things got
better as time went on.  I liked reading the book, and still liked
it after I finished, and it was INFINITELY BETTER than <Oath of
Fealty> (bletch) !!

"Can we tawk?                           --Pete {-r Alfke}
 Here, put your hand in this box."        jpa144@CIT-vax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Feb 1985 02:47:43-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: Recent Niven Books

From:   ucbvax!wildbill (Bill Laubenheimer)

>> The story was mainly an exploration of the Smoke Ring, showing
>> the reading how diverse and fascinating this place is.
>> I hope that the sequel presents a more interesting 'story', now
>> that the world has been at least partially explored.
>
> I recently got \\The Integral Trees// myself. I have the same
> complaint: the environment is very interesting, but it all seems
> quite unmotivated.

Funny, these were my exact feelings about RINGWORLD, and I thought
(re: the second ">>" comment) RINGWORLD ENGINEERS was much better
for that very reason.

> In the latter group are two stories set in the Warlock universe,
> which are collected in \\More Magic//. This would appear to be a
> collection of previously uncollected Warlock stories, but I
> haven't seen it yet.

MORE MAGIC is not a collection of more Warlock stories by Niven, but
an anthology edited by Niven with stories, by other authors, set in
the Warlock universe. They are all original to the anthology, except
for one, which is Niven's "Not Long Before the End". It appeared
from Ace last June as a trade paperback.

Oddly enough, the Berserker story by Niven in LIMITS was solicited
for a similar anthology edited by Saberhagen. This book, BERSERKER
BASE, will be a trade paperback from Tor Books this month. I believe
that all of the stories in it have already appeared in the
magazines, though.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 00:37:14 PST
Subject: Perils of Bad Movies

Now I don't know if the 'Perils of Gwendoline' is supposed to be
bad, but it comes real close.  Never been to a theatre with people
leaving during the first five minutes.
        Best Scene: The heating dialogue in the wicker jail, with
the theatre audience sighing and gasping in perfect sync.
        ...They had the right attitude toward it...
        And then they cries of, "Hey, where'd the jungle come from?"
And these were spontaneous reactions/protections to the absurdities
of the plot...Ever notice that WHENEVER the hero (Willard?-Be real!)
uses his grappling hook, he kills someone?

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Feb 1985 02:45:57-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Rocky (Horrible)

> From: JOn <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rocky Horror open to
> terrible reviews and close after a few weeks in the theatres?  I
> seem to remember that the 'Rocky' craze was enabled after the
> movie 'Fame' brought it to our attention.  Rocky Horror was
> supposed to be a serious movie, and it failed in that way.

How could RHPS have become a craze only after FAME "brought it to
our attention." That scene in FAME was *showing* the already
existing craze. I can't say about how the reviews went when the film
first opened (the stage show, after running for, I think, a solid
year in London, bombed on Broadway, but was another rousing success
in LA), but what has that got to do with anything? I first saw RHPS
in late 1976/early 1977, and saw a few more times soon after. The
craze hit big sometime in 1978.

It isn't an outstanding movie by any means, but it's funny,
outrageous, and entertaining (and has a good soundtrack). I only
wish I had it on videotape, so that I could watch it in peace. It
would be nice to see and hear the *movie* again instead of the
*audience*.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 85 12:59:10-EST (Fri)
From: Judith Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: Best SF Movie

Now you've done it!

Most imaginatively challenging:     FORBIDDEN PLANET

Most nostalgically exciting:        STAR TREK III-WRATH OF KHAN (for
                                    hard-core, loving Trekkies)

Most romanticized and escapist:     STAR WARS, EMPIRE STRIKES BACK &
  (albeit more fantasy than SF)     RETURN OF THE JEDI  -  AS A WHOLE
                                    STORY!

                                Signed,
                                Judi    the Dragon Keeper

    * I still haven't gotten the hang of Thursdays *

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!jsq@topaz (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: 1984
Date: 8 Feb 85 17:26:27 GMT

Many of the features of Orwell's 1984, such as the deliberate
squalor, absolute control by the state, and the abolition of the
past, are also shown in another recent movie, The Killing Fields.
The society depicted there has a major difference, however: it was
real, and recent.

John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas,
Austin, Texas 78712 USA
jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP,
{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq

------------------------------

From: snow!sahunt@topaz (Steve Hunt)
Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies?
Date: 3 Feb 85 19:23:33 GMT

>As we were watching a Dr. Who episode last night, my friend
>wondered aloud whether there were more Trekies or more Whoites,
>since Dr. Who has been around for a longer span of time than Star
>Trek.  I told him I'd post the question to this digest and see what
>people thought of the difference in numbers between the fans of
>each of these series.  As a more specific question, since Dr. Who
>is a BBC produced series, can we assume that it has a greater
>following in England than does Star Trek?
   [Sonia Schwartzberg <sonia@aids-unix>]

I haven't seen the TV ratings recently, but I think that Dr. Who has
a much bigger following than Trek here in England, mostly because
new episodes are being made and will continue to be for the
forseeable future.  The BBC are currently re-running Trek but I find
I can remember the plots almost word for word - my loyalty to a show
wanes after I've seen all the episodes half a dozen times!

Also an eccentric character like Dr Who is far more interesting than
all the military types in Star Trek.

From the cutting edge of computer science,
Steve Hunt            ... mcvax!ukc!qtlon!flame!ubu!snow!sahunt

------------------------------

Date: 05 Feb 85 21:53:21 PST (Tue)
Subject: Dr. Who:  BBC or ITV?
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

   In a previous message (mostly concerning Romana's hat), I said I
thought that Dr. Who was an ITV product.

   It isn't.  Sorry about that.

   The end of each episode states that it is a BBC Colour
production, distributed by Lionheart.  The old sieve ... I mean
memory ... strikes again.

                        A. Milne

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Feb 1985 08:19-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Whoites, Trekies, and other stuff

        Re the hats on Dr. Who, Lala ward (ex Mrs Tom Baker) was the 
only hat wearer that had a problem keeping a wide brim on her head, 
although just about all the other females wore hats at one time or 
another.

        When it comes to voting for which I'd rather watch, Dr. Who or
Star Trek, I find it hard to make a choice. Dr. Who, which to me comes
off like a SF soap opera, has some very interesting concepts, a good
deal of humor, a cast that is ever changing, and manages to stay
interesting. I can't believe that the show is aimed at kids up to 12.
A lot of the concepts are way over most of their heads. I guess its
the ROCKY AND BULLWINKLE of SF. (Now I'm in for it!).

        I like STAR TREK for different reasons. Here we have a stable
cast and stories that attempt to be totally believable as far as
future possibilities are concerned. A totally different concept.
      (Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life on the net!)

                                                wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Feb 85 2315-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 10 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:

                Books - Niven & O'Donnell (2 msgs) &
                        Varley & Zelazny,
                Films - Worst SF Movie (2 msgs),
                Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz
Subject: Niven's Characters
Date: 10 Feb 85 01:34:29 GMT

>Overall, I enjoyed it, but there was a lack of characterization; it
>seems to me that this is a general problem with Niven's more recent
>work.  Niven's most memorable characters, to me, are still Gil
>Hamilton and Louis Wu.

What? Bewulf Shaeffer - hero of "Neutron Star" (a.k.a "There is a
Tide") (which you mentioned), first man to know that the center of
the Galaxy has exploded, one of the only two men to have visited an
anti-matter solar system (and collect on the failure of a GP hull!),
one of the few humans to be featured in a kdatlyno touch-sculpture,
and father of Louis Wu doesn't make the list?

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1985 20:26:55 PST
Subject: Kevin O'Donnell
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

Kevin O'Donnell, a relativly new author, has come out with 5 books
that I know of.  I have read four of these and greatly enjoyed them.
A short review of the four I read follows, I recommend them all.


"LAVA", "REEFS", "CAVERNS" (3 books),  The Journeys of McGill
Feighan  (Berkley)

These 3 books cover the adventures of McGill Feighan, a Flinger (ie
a teleporter) from birth.  In the first book, he is swallowed by a
giant gastropod creature supposedly sent by the Far Being
Retzglaran.  At age 5, he becomes a Flinger, and at 17 enters the
Flinger academy, where he is trained in teleporting.  Meanwhile, an
intersteller crime Mafia type organization, called The Organization,
decides to capture Feighan, mainly because they have dealt with the
work of the Far Being Retzglaran before.  Although no one seems to
know anything about the Far Being, he usually causes lots of trouble
for the Organization.

The rest of the books deal with Feighans career as a Flinger, and
his quest to find the Far Being to find out why he was swallowed by
the Gastropod, and what his life is all about.  The series is fairly
humorous, but with a serious plot line.  It is pretty entertaining.
I especially liked the teleporting aspects (there really don't seem
to really be very many teleport stories around).

"ORA:CLE"  (Berkley)

ORA:CLE stands for Opinions, Research, Advice: Computer Linked
Experts.  If you want information, and are willing to pay, ORA:CLE
can help with its network of Experts, linked by computer (through an
implant allowing direct contact with the brain).  The story centers
around Ale Elatey, a CLE on Oriental History, who is almost murdered
more than once.  It turns out that many of the CLE's have died under
mysterious circumstances.

Meanwhile (the book takes place 100 years from now) in this future
history, the Dacs, huge winged creatures, have invaded the Earth.
We do not have the power to stop them, but they have not succeeded
yet either.  There is currently a ceasefire in effect, but the Dacs
fly around and attack anyone out in the open.  Thus people have "Dac
Alarms" which alert you of approaching Dacs and warn you to get
indoors.  standard phrase used is "Do be careful" (as in the news
service notice: "This update has been provided as a public service
by all data management corporations participating in
NEWSBANK/MC....To see the headlines of the day's other news stories,
simply scroll your screen up.  Thank you, and do be careful.")

Anyway the background of the story, with the Dac invasion, matter
transmitters, Computer linked experts, etc. is very interesting.  I
thought the ending of the story was a little weak, but on the whole
well worth reading.

If you're looking for something new to read, try these.

Thank you, and Do be Careful...

                Alan

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!ivan@topaz (Ivan M. Milman)
Subject: Re: Kevin O'Donnell
Date: 9 Feb 85 17:42:54 GMT
Reply-to: ivan@ut-sally.UUCP (Ivan M. Milman)

     Another excellent book by Kevin O'Donnell is "Mayflies".  I
won't spoil it for you (much!) except to say that it is the most
interesting book on the man-machine interface that I've read in a
long time, and is just plain old terrific SF.

                         Enjoy,
                     Ivan Milman
                     ARPA: ivan@ut-sally.ARPA
                     USENET:  {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ivan
                     Bell:  (512)471-4760

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 85 13:17:00-EST (Fri)
From: Judith Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: Response to Bill Laubenheimer

I was *very* impressed by Varley myself; so much so that I have
already formulated stories for Cirrocco Jones (my highest honor),
who has become my favorite female hero and perhaps all-around
character.  She is so believable, so real, that she gives you a
touchstone for believing the rest of Titan.  My battered copy of
_Titan_ bears witness to that.

Anybody else fascinated enough with Greco-Roman mythology to
understand all the references Varley makes?  For me that added to
the fun of reading _Titan_; I especially loved Varley's
"interpretation" of centaurs in the Titanides, but can't figure out
why he named them that when the Titanides in mythology were nothing
like his centaur-like beings in the book.

I thought Varley's ending to _Demon_ was well-done and pretty
satisfying.  I would love more books on Titan, but if they get much
more esoteric than the ending of _Demon_ I'm afraid they will lose
that earthy feel _Titan_ started out with, and that I so treasure in
Cirrocco.
                                        Judi, Dragonkeeper

"On no account allow a Vogon to read poetry to you."
"A poet who reads his verse in public may have other nasty habits."

------------------------------

From: calmasd!gail@topaz (Gail B. Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From
Date: 4 Feb 85 21:56:25 GMT

bwm@ccice2.UUCP (Bradford W. Miller) writes:
>... BTW: For those of you trying to find "And Call Me Conrad.."
>it was more recently published as "Roadmarks". A must read.

_And Call Me Conrad..._ (is that really the original title?) was
more recently published as _This Immortal_.  _Roadmarks_ is no
relation.

I recommend _Roadmarks_ -- I have to love a book that has all the
chapters numbered 1 or 2.  Zelazny was doing some strange stuff in
this book, and it is one of his best.

Gail Bayley Hanrahan
Calma Company, San Diego
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Feb 85 20:00:25-PST
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: Bad movies

[Note: Due to totalitarianism on the part of a certain site, the
author of this message cannot send it here herself without suffering
the loss of her access to the network(ing) world.  As I find this
policy personally distasteful, and because I greatly admire and
adore the author, I am submitting it on her behalf.  In other words,
I haven't the slightest notion what she is talking about, and refuse
to accept any blame for the psychological damage which may result
from reading her work.]

As far as these pitiful attempts to find the world's worst SF movie
of all time, one movie has been over looked.  I am not quite sure of
the title, but here is a brief description.

I saw it several years ago on Cable TV, it never even got to the
theaters it was so bad.  It was on the tail wind of Star Wars and an
obvious attempt to cash in on its selling potential.  It was about a
young <er> hero, who had a link in with some Force-like magic who
went around whining.  The hero was played by Marjoe Gortner, who
many may not remember as a child evangalist.  Christopher Plummer
had a bit part as the Emperor (I don't know if he was evil or not)
and seemed accutely embarrased throughout the thirty or forty
seconds that he appeared on screen. (He got top billing, if I
remember correctly).

What really stands out in my mind were the giant amazon robots,
which tried to be physically as true to women as possible.  i.e. get
the idea -- especially around the front upper torso region?

The greatest reason to assume that this may (or may not be) one of
the all time worst movies is that it wasn't meant to be bad.  This
is pretty obvious.  Pathetically so.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 23:48:36 EST
From: Augenbra%udel-eecis3.delaware@udel-louie.ARPA
Subject: Worst SF movie of all time

        I have been watching the debate over the worst SF movie of
all time with some interest now.  I thought that someone would
eventually bring up a very important point, one that might alleviate
some of the argument: There are actually 2 categories of "bad" SF
movies, the ones that are awful movies, and therefore not
entertaining at all, and those that are in some way so bad that they
are hysterically funny.

        Here comes the part that makes me feel important.  I am
about to bestow upon you poor unsuspecting souls MY opinion on the
"worst SF movies of all time".

        In the newly created "so bad its bad" category, the
clear-cut winner for me is Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.  When our
school had a "bad films" festival last year, all of the other films
managed to attract people as they were shown.  Not AotKT, it started
out with the room packed, and ended up with only 10 people who could
stomach the whole thing.  It is a thoroughly unenjoyable flik.

        In the "so bad its enjoyable" category, probably Plan 9 is
the winner, although I only got to see about 10 minutes of it.  In
my 10 minute tenure, I saw a flying saucer that was a pie tin
suspended by a string with the wind blowing.  I heard that the
visual effects that I saw were far and away the best the movie had
to offer.  I've seen nothing else that is even close to that level
of awfultude.

        Let's make a third category while we're at it for movies
that were great, but you're not quite sure what they're meant to be.
There are two movies that I wish to put in this category: Dark Star
and Repoman.  I must jump on the pro-Dark Star bandwagon, because I
enjoyed it an awful lot.  I have not seen anything on the NET about
Repoman, but I really enjoyed it.  I have not found another human
being who saw it besides the people I was with, and I'd be
interested in other people's reactions.  I'd also like to know if it
was suppossed to be a serious movie or not.

        While we're at it we might as well put Rocky Horror in its
own category [you know I'm just going to keep making up categories
until I've mentioned every movie ever made].  Rocky Horror probably
would have ended up in the "so bad its bad" category if the whole
litany had not evolved.  Rocky Horror can be a lot of fun to go to,
but cinematographically speaking, it is rather lame.  This puts it
in a unique category.

        I hope I didn't offend anyone's favorite unfavored film.

                                                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  6 Feb 1985 14:48:45-PST
From: andy_leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Don Quixote    ^    )
Subject: Dr Who

>From: ihlpg!jcgowl@topaz (r. gowland)
>Part of the reason why the Dr. Who show doesn't seem to have such a
>big following in the UK is that it is made for and aimed at
>children in the age-group from 5 to 12. It is broadcast in prime
>childrens' viewing timeslots, usually 5pm Saturday with sometimes
>repeats at 6pm on a Monday. It is acknowledged by many that the
>programme is for kids, but loved by adults. I *like* (as opposed to
>*love*) it, but prefer Star Trek which comes at us in 50 minutes
>complete programmes. Dr. Who (as Richard Jeffreys probably pointed
>out) is shown over 4, 5 or 6 weeks at 25 minutes per episode.
>ihlpg!jcgowl Roger R. Gowland at Indian Hill (temporarily)

        Tom Baker was interviewed on the BBC at a US convention and
what he said (more or less) was that the Brits don't quite go over
the top in the way that American fans do. He also said he failed to
understand the fuss, pretty ordinairy part really, but at least it
got him free US trips.

The conventionite, be (s)he 'Trekkie' or 'Whoite' is
quintissentially american and the antics at these confirm many Brits
fears about american sanity :-)

Over the years Dr Who has been shown in several formats. For many
years this was Saturday night at some time between 5 and 6:30 pm,
episode lengths varying from 20 to 45 minutes. Longest story in
terms of episodes was probably 'Daleks invade the earth' which was
screened in the mid-sixties and lasted about 13 episodes. (Forgive
an old memory if thats inexact)

A couple of years ago the format became twice-weekly on weekday
evenings at 7:00 pm, length about 25 mins. Questions were asked in
Parliament ( I kid you not ) about this shift in the schedules,
eventually the furore died down on a promise of a resumption of
normal timing.

This year, Dr Who stories consist of 2 * 45 min episodes and it is
back to Saturday evenings at 5pm-ish. The writing is much better
than of late but the models of spaceports and suchlike are still in
the 1950's papier mache' style.

(As well as the above, there have been compilations, whole stories
told in 1 hour 'specials', put in to the summer schedules)

It may well have been the original intention to appeal to children
of 10 and under, but children under 100 seem to like it instead.

I have watched every episode since 1962, either in serial or
'special' mode. I would like to comment on the 'plots' debate. Dr
Who plots have varied wildly over the years from the inane to the
insane, from good to superlative. Some of the best stuff I have seen
for ages is in the current series. But several mainstays of the
series have been changing. The Tardis has regained its chameleon
ability, although screwed up ( a church organ in a scrap yard [?!] )
and the Doctor has actually gotten in a fight and beaten up a human
opponent. He is far more agressive than days of yor. He has killed
Cybermen and friendly characters have been killed. In recent times
the worst that would have happened is that they would have caught a
cold (with the notable exception of Adric).

        Indeed, I think that had all the old mainstays been left
intact, Dr Who would have drifted into a shadow of its former self
and been canned in short time.

        As to Star Trek, well, its very nice for a 17 year old
series, still pretty much a macho-man yarn, some stories stick in
the mind ( remember the demented singing of "I'll take you home
again, Kathleen" over the ships tannoy episode?), others stick in
the Mudd.

It is important to remember that Star Trek suffered far fewer
constraints than Dr Who ( the hero was allowed romance, for one ).
AND IT FINISHED. It is always easier to forgive mistakes in the old
than in the new.

forgive the rambling...

                Andy (<>^<>) Leslie

ARPA:    andy_leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}
         !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-perch!andy_leslie
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., UVO-7
         Jays Close, Basingstoke, Hampshire, England.
Tel:     +44 256 56101 x3615

------------------------------

From: snow!dpa@topaz (David Angier)
Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies?
Date: 5 Feb 85 15:29:42 GMT

> I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English.  I think it's
> actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision) divisions,
> Lionheart.  ITV is Britain's commercial network , though not
> nearly so commercial as the North American ones.

"Dr. Who" is produced and run by the British Broadcasting
Corporation.  I am English so I should know, I also watch it every
Saturday and watch Star Trek every Wednesday.

                        Dave (Maths @ Warwick University, UK)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Feb 85 2345-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Feb 85 2345-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 10 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:

              Books - Story Request Answered (2 msgs),
              Films - Rocky Horror (3 msgs) & The Tunnel,
              Television - Otherworld (3 msgs) & The Prisoner (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 1985  19:09 EST
From: INGRIA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
To: ttidcc!regard@TOPAZ.ARPA (Adrienne Regard)
Subject: Help finding a title

> From: ttidcc!regard at topaz (Adrienne Regard)
> Can anyone remember a book of short stories, at least 20 years
> old, containing "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul"?  About a man who
> sailed a space ship powered by solar power, and aged 40 years in
> the transit.  The ship carried people in suspended animation to a
> new planet light years away.  So, the guy who ran the ship aged 40
> years while his passengers did not.  Anyway, he met this woman who
> fell in love with him, so she sailed on one of these ships back to
> the original destination so that they would be the same age, and
> this would overcome his scruples toward their relationship.
> That's a pretty lousy explanation of a wonderfully romantic story,
> but I hope it sounds familiar?

The author was Cordwainer Smith.  The man was called ``Mr.
Grey-no-more'' and the woman was called ``Helen America''.

> The lead story and the book title were the same and had something
> to do with drug expanded consciousness -- MindBender? MindBreaker?
> Something like that.  Any clues?  THANKS!!!!

Smith didn't have many collections out.  ``The Lady who Sailed the
Soul'' appears in one called @i[You Will Never Be the Same],
copyright 1963.  The date and title fit your recollection, but there
is no Corwainer Smith short story titled ``You Will Never Be the
Same'', in this collection or elsewhere.  However, the same
collection DOES include ``No, No, not Rogov!'', about a Soviet
Scientist who builds a monitor which turns out to be able to see the
future and which presents him with a vision that shatters his mind;
and ``The Burning of the Brain''.  Either of them might be the story
you're thinking of.  The collection also includes the classic
``Scanners Live in Vain'' and ``The Game of Rat and Dragon'', both
of which have been anthologized frequently.

This collection has been out of print for a long time, but it turns
up in used book sections from time to time.  Del Rey/Ballantine
reissued Smith's short stories in @i[The Best of Corwainer Smith]
and @i[The Instrumentality of Mankind] in 1975 and 1979.  I believe
these two are still in print, although I'm not sure.

Bob (``Flectere si nequere Superos/Acheronta movebo!'') Ingria

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 85 14:27:26 PST (Sun)
To: ttidcc!regard@topaz
Subject: Re: Help finding a title
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

I can't help you on the collection/anthology you requested, but can
give you some other pointers to "The Lady who Sailed THE SOUL", if
you were looking for the story rather than the book.

It was written by Cordwainer Smith (in real life: Paul Myfron
Anthony Linebarger), and is my all-time favorite in the 'romance' SF
class.  Much of Smith's stuff is worth reading.  He created a
"future history of mankind" that has some really interesting twists.

"The Lady.." has appeared in:

"Galaxy: Thirty Years of Innovative Science Fiction" edited by
Frederik Pohl, Mat\rtin H. Greenberg, and Joseph D. Olander
Playboy Press, date unknown

"The Best of Cordwainer Smith"
edited by J. J. Pierce
Nelson Doubleday, Inc.  1975

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks to the following people who presented the
same or similar information:

Leonard N. Zubkoff (Zubkoff@TL-20B)
Wang Zeep (G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC)
Evan Kirshenbaum (evan@SU-CSLI)
Lee Gold (sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz)
]

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible)
Date: 7 Feb 85 20:33:44 GMT

> Now wait just a minute here! Rocky Horror Picture Show was trashed
> by the critics, if that is really of any signifigance.  But it was
> indeed a cult classic long before "Fame" rode to fame on it's
> coat-tails!

From someone whose only exposure to "Fame" has been [avoiding] the
TV series, would some kind soul explain what the movie "Fame"
has/had to do with Rocky Horror?

Thanks!

Will Martin

USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin     or
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible)
Date: 9 Feb 85 07:02:53 GMT

>> Now wait just a minute here! Rocky Horror Picture Show was
>> trashed by the critics, if that is really of any signifigance.
>> But it was indeed a cult classic long before "Fame" rode to fame
>> on it's coat-tails!
>
> From someone whose only exposure to "Fame" has been [avoiding] the
> TV series, would some kind soul explain what the movie "Fame"
> has/had to do with Rocky Horror?

Very little actually.  In one scene in "Fame", two of the students
from the School of the Performing Arts go to a New York theater to
see "The Rocky Horror Picture Show."  Well, at this theater, there
is a group of amateur actors who put on a show patterned after the
movie RHPS.  During one scene in RHPS, one of the students got up
and started dancing along with the people on stage.  Afterwards,
when explaining to her friend why she did it, she says something
like "The audience didn't see me, they only saw the character I was
playing."
                                           John L. Templer
                                     University of Texas at Austin
    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

------------------------------

Date: Sat 9 Feb 85 13:46:55-PST
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #47

>It isn't an outstanding movie by any means, but it's funny,
>outrageous, and entertaining (and has a good soundtrack). I only
>wish I had it on videotape, so that I could watch it in peace. It
>would be nice to see and hear the *movie* again instead of the
>*audience*.

No, actually, it wouldn't.  I was an avid (though not fanatical)
RHPS fan for several years before being in a dorm production of the
show (imagine trying to dance when 200 people are shouting and
throwing things at you...but that's another story).  Since the show
I have seen RHPS twice.  It's still fun, but even with the audience,
it is incredibly slow.  The movie was obviously made for audience
participation, as they left holes in the dialogue for it all over
the place (Being on stage, we couldn't so we tightened it up a lot).
I don't think it would be anywhere near as much fun to see alone.

As a possible explanation of the lack of success of the stage play
on Broadway, have you ever seen (or heard) the music for the
original?  They improved it quite a bit for the Movie.

        evan
        {evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA}
        {...!glacier!evan}      (I!never!use!UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 85 19:25 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Tunnel

If /The Tunnel/ was made in 1935, it has no relation to Harry
Harrison's /A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah/, (aka /Tunnel thru the
Depths/ or something like that), since that was written much later.
I have the original magazine version and while I don't remember the
exact year, it was in /Analog/ (not /Astonishing/), so its some time
since the name change.  At a guess, maybe the early seventies?

Mark

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 00:45:01 PST
Subject: Otherworld Joke

        A friend of mine, after watching the show, remarked: "It's
too bad the robot girl couldn't go with the family.."
        "Why?" I asked in perfect straight man mode.
"Well, with the young daughter, the Mother from Better Homes, and
the continuously grumpy Smith, she could stand and wave her hands -
Danger! Danger!"

Seriously - Info on the Hanglider stunts can be found in Ultralight
Magazine.

Victor O'Rear <-- No, I don't work here - I just read the mail.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 85 13:09:19-EST (Fri)
From: Judith Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: OTHERWORLD

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I saw most of last week's
episode, in which Trace (the oldest boy) is drafted for life but
manages to get out before his 55 min. + commercials are up.  Oddly
enough, I liked it, due mostly to the general idea behind the
episode and the acting of whoever played Trace and Mark Lenard, an
old favorite, playing his commandant.  The only unpredictable line
in the entire show - at least to me - was "I would start a
collection of hands."  That startled me out of the rut the rest of
the dialogue was in.

If they hired two good writers who can handle the premise, and
cleaned up the dialogue (BOR-ing!) and do something about the
artificiality of the father's thought-soliloquies, I would watch it
again.

My only other suggestion is to kill off the mother; she is useless
and prevented more than helped the plot from moving, & worsened the
dialogue.
                                Judi

------------------------------

From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss)
Subject: Re: OTHERWORLD
Date: 5 Feb 85 02:57:34 GMT

I have seen episodes 1 and 2.  Ep1 looked great.  They entered the
pyramid when all the planets were aligned or something, and that is
what caused their little trip to another world.  They are now trying
to get to a place in this world where by legend you get to your home
world.  Ep2 stunk.  They are concentrating on one of the kids too
much instead of the family, or even any other member.  I hope it
turns out better, it is a very good plot.  Even if it does have some
extremely sappy, walton-ish moments.  Esp. noteworthy is the part of
Zone trooper commander Kroll (sp).  I dunno who plays him (it was
the main henchman in Beverly Hills Cop), but he is great.  Nice and
evil looking.

Your reviewer from the outer limits...

-Michael  "on the Twilight Node"  Weiss
...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 85 14:41 EST
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?

        "With a number like "6", he should have been high in the
ruling heirarchy"

        "You are forgetting that no one was above suspicion in the
village, even number two."

Also, it was pointed out in a number of episodes that Number 6 was
somehow "special".  Number 2 always had orders that Number 6 was not
to be harmed.  His number reflects his status.  Evidently, the
Village just had a smaller ruling hierarchy than say your typical
large American corporation.  What I always wanted to know is who
were Numbers 3, 4, and 5.  I don't recall a single mention of them.

                        - Michel

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 7 Feb 85 19:51:23 GMT

>I love this show!  Except for ROVER, though, I wouldn't call it SF.
>I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at least
>get him rescued.  Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is?
>Not that many places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely
>rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.  Whaddya think?
>
>-Michael  "on the Twilight Node"  Weiss    ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

    I do share your enthusiasm for The Prisoner, and agree that it
really isn't SF (but where else would we discuss it?).  I don't
think we'll ever find out who No.1 is, but I think that No. 6 will
eventually escape. If there's anyone out there who knows, please
don't spoil it for us.  Anyway, there's more I could say if you've
seen "Many Happy Returns" (episode 7), but I don't want to spoil
anything for you if you haven't. Here's a trivia question for
observant Prisoner fans: What is No. 6's address in London?

And another question: What in God's name is that umbrella-looking
thing that all the No.2's carry? This must have some significance.
The location of the Village? That I can tell you.  It's on the
Baltic Sea on the coast of Lithuania. I don't believe that that
means that it is a Communist institution, though.  I am convinced
that British intelligence runs it.
                Episode 9 tonight in Philly.
                           Be seeing you!

David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar)
St. Joseph's University Philadelphia
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!myers@topaz (Jeff Myers)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 8 Feb 85 23:18:26 GMT

> Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is?  Not that many
> places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely rains, never
> cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.  Whaddya think?
>
> "I am a MAN, not a number!!"  -Number Six

As I recall, the Village is actually a little burg on the south
coast of Wales.

jeff m

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 1985 20:05:08 PST
Subject: The Prisonor on videotape
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>

I just bought a couple of the Prisonor videotapes.  They are very
high quality prints.  They are releasing 3/month, the first 6
episodes (up through "The General") are out already, episodes 7-9
should be availible Feb. 20.  The tapes go for $39.95 each, a little
steep for 52 minutes, but worth it if you like the show.  (I have
found copies of tapes aren't all that great, apart from the
copyright infringement).  The tapes should also be generally
availible for rental (if people like me don't buy them all).

                                Alan

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 9 Feb 85 06:49:19 GMT

Argh!!!  I can't stand it anymore!

Having seen the complete sequence of "Prisoner" episodes twice, I am
having much difficulty restraining myself from telling all.  Oh,
well.  Any way, where all is it currently being shown?  It has been
too long since I have seen it.
                                           John L. Templer
                                     University of Texas at Austin
    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

------------------------------

From: tty3b!sol@topaz (9-13-84"Solveig  94120)
Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 8 Feb 85 16:12:02 GMT

I always had the impression that Number 6 had a low number for
several reasons:

1. He had been an important person who had disagreed with his
higher-ups, and thus was too knowledgeable to fire or dispose of in
any other way except sending him the the Village. He had a high
number because of his former position in the power structure that
had put him in the Village;

2. His ablility to thwart his captors repeatedly led them to respect
him, thus they were always trying to get him to buy into their
system. Part of their persuasion was to give him a high rank
(number) in the Village;

3. It seemed he had been there for a long time, while other members
of the cast came and went. Perhaps he had a lower number because of
the length of his stay.

Did you ever see the episode(s) where he met Number 1? I saw this
series so many years ago , I can't remember exactly what happened,
but I thought Number 6 recognized him. Number 6 was obviously part
of the whole structure which was keeping him captive (or had been at
one time).

I have been looking for this series to be rebroadcasted on PBS for
years now.  I originally saw it on WNET, New York, but have not seen
it again there or in any other city. Any info on the series would be
welcome.

Solveig Whittle

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Feb 85 0017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asprin & Donaldson & May,
                 Films - Worst SF Movie,
                 Television - Dr. Who & V (2 msgs) &
                         Battlestar Galactica &
                         The Prisoner (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Einstein's Time Capsule

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ptsfb!djl@topaz (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Quotes in \"Myth-ing Persons\"
Date: 7 Feb 85 00:50:22 GMT

I have just read Myth-ing Persons by Robert Asprin. One of the
things I enjoy about this series is the fractured quotations at the
beginning each chapter such as :

        "Success often hinges on
        choosing a reliable partner."
                                Remus

        "To survive, one must be able to
           adapt to changing situations"
                     Tyrannosaurus Rex

        "First, let's decide who's leading
           and who's following."
                        F. Astaire

        "I've never seen
           so damn many Indians."
                        G.A. Custer

I only have one problem. Can anyone give me a hint as to the import
of :
            "Don't be fooled by appearances."
                                Malloy

and who is/was Malloy?

Thanks,

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl
(415) 774-9581

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 6 Feb 85 21:39:21 GMT

>from red@ukma.UUCP
> Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the
> first three.
>
> As to what I think of the books: GARBAGE! GARBAGE! GARBAGE!
>
> Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense.
> The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of
> the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign).

Such is your opinion.  I guess it's only to be expected; people can
only judge from experience.  Most people who've never experienced
being an outcast wouldn't be able to understand, much less judge
clearly.

Suffice it to say that I can relate to enough of Thomas Covenant's
actions and feelings that I can easily conjecture that what I can't
understand is a result of his being just about the ultimate outcast.
It would fit with my experience.

I find Linden Avery (second Chronicles) hard to understand and
harder to accept.  But I have never had *her* experiences, so I
cannot judge.  Anyone out there willing to step forward?

--bsa
Brandon Allbery @ decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa
(..ncoast!tdi1!bsa business)
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131
+1 216 524 1416 (or what have you)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 85 19:10 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Julian May Re: Felice

                    ***** SPOILER WARNING *****

While it is true that Felice isn't killed in /The Non-born King/, as
explained in /The Adversary/, the question is why bother to mention
this, since it doesn't matter to the rest of the book.  One also
might ask why the scene was at the front of /The Adversary/ rather
than back in /The Non-born King/.  My feeling is that Felice will
turn up in the Milue trilogy, after having been a ruby for however
many million years.

Now, what I want to know is why the Guderian device made in Exile
went /forward/, while the one made in the Milue went backwards.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sun 10 Feb 85 14:53:37-PST
From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: worst SF movie ever

My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
character who has quite large breasts.

Any comments??

        Doug Bryan
        bryan@su-sierra

        facts are temporary...
        long live fantasy!

------------------------------

From: snow!asz@topaz (Jerry Cornelius)
Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies
Date: 8 Feb 85 17:22:15 GMT

        I'm sorry but Tom Baker was wrong. There are whoites in
England and quite a few of them. Both convention and zine fandom
exist and flourish. I've no idea about Star Trek, I just like it. I
think the fact that Star Trek has finished while Dr Who continues
with new stories and Doctors may have some influence with the
future. This means that another generation will grow up with another
Doctor.
                        ... mcvax!ukc!qtlon!flame!ubu!snow!asz

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: "V" is changing...
Date: 7 Feb 85 21:15:21 GMT

Last week's episode of "V" (delayed from an originally-scheduled
earlier airing, showed quite a few changes. The intro/opening
credits were different, and some of the major characters are gone
(including the token crazed-right-wing-CIA-madman Ham Tyler, who
hadn't been killed off in the show, as far as I can recall; just
brainwashed into even-more-dangerous instability). Duncan Regehr
managed to get out of his guest-star slot as Charles (lizards
leaving a sinking series?), and the plot had even more holes than
usual (for example, someone saying that he was there to "shave
Diana's body", when her human skin is only makeup), and a royal
lizard wedding where Charles & Diana (do those names ring a bell?)
remained in human disguise while indulging in lizardish ritual. A
little bit more presence of lizards, and even a bit of speaking in
native tongue, as opposed to English.

Some nice touches: "cat poison" and "rodent musk" perfume. At least
one of the writers is trying to slip a few bright spots into this
mess.  Silly aspect: Charles' poisoning causing his makeup to fall
away and accelerated decomposition. And HOW a lizard-creature could
find an alien mammalian sexually attractive is beyond me;
anthropomorphism runs amok! (If Lydia wanted to seduce Charles, she
should have stripped off her makeup and been a lady lizard again...)

Bates is simply stated to have "died" in the opening newscast, and
there is no mention of the elaborate pulse-monitor and red-dust
caches which were supposed to explode and kill off the lizards if he
happened to die. Since much was made of this before, we are now
simply supposed to forget it ever happened? Humph! Also, anyone
notice what seemed to be an abrupt and awkward cut in that opening
newscast? It looks like a segment of that was dropped out at the
last minute.

(Using Howard K. Smith (a real newsman) in that opening news
broadcast is one of the best features of this series; a good
technique for verisimilitude.  Too bad the following nonsense
undercuts this so much.)

The series never adequately explained why Bates (a corporate boss)
became a political power, to such a degree that ordinary street cops
used the phrase "Bates' orders" to explain whatever martial-law-type
actions they were taking. If he now is so casually discarded, it is
about time to modify the settings; there has been a lot of pretense
of "carrying on a normal life" while under lizard control, only
allusions to people being rounded up for food in other areas
(remember "The Butcher of Birmingham"?) and various other aspects of
a "real" war of conquest -- why haven't the humans been spewing tons
of red dust into the atmosphere to renew the interdiction of the
Visitor presence?  Why haven't the Visitors been nuking pockets of
resistance?

Another bit of evidence the writers have no idea what to do next --
they are introducing new weaponry every show, as side gimmicks, but
then don't know what to do with it. Nonsense like the lizard patrol
waiting for the people in the bombed-out building to surrender,
giving them an endlessly-extending "5 minutes"... What do they care?
Level the block and move on... The Visitors have had enough time to
suck the oceans dry and fill the ships with corpsicles by now; it's
getting harder to find reasons for dilly-dallying around.

Well, we'll see what happens next... I vote to put Faye Grant in a
body stocking again and give her another dose of "interrogation";
that had to be one of the highlights of this mess...

Ooops! My dinner's crawling off the table...

Bye! Will

------------------------------

From: rlgvax!oz@topaz (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ)
Subject: Re: "V" is changing...
Date: 10 Feb 85 00:57:34 GMT

Here in Washtington DC (AKA "The District") we are blessed with a
marvelous TV columnist "Captain Airwave."  The Good Captain gives us
news on what is happening in the world of TV as well as adding some
of his own comments to the blurbs provoided by the networks about a
particular nights episode (Tonight Sam has Fraser going Snipe
hunting in the woods.  Now, really Sam) Be that as it may, Captain
Airwaves warned us a few weeks ago that NBC (or perhaps the shows
producers, I can't recall which one) had decided that there were too
many people on the show so several HAD to be done away with.  In the
previous "new" episode (about two weeks ago) Bates was killed by Mr.
Chang who was in turn killed by Kyle.  Robin (a worthless character
for a long time now) was sent to live with the Chicago underground
(I wonder if their leader is named "Big Julie?")  and is escorted
there by Tyler (one of the better characters in the show, I was
surprised that they had him go).

I agree with you about some of the problems of the show.  The
biggest problem I see with it is that they are working too hard to
make each episode a complete story.  By doing this they are turning
into a formula series: "Aliens get new weapon that can destroy the
resistance.  Donovan (or some other token hunk) goes on the
mothership (they might as well install a revolving door on the
mothership and put out the welcome mat considering how often the
resistance is on it) destroy the weapon (or kidnap the person that
CAN destroy the weapon) and Diana curses them.

For reasons that I cannot explain, I still find myself watching this
show.  I think that part of it is that I enjoy seeing ANY Science
Fiction on the tube, and the other part is that occasionally some
interesting things happen.

I hope this helps get you up to date.

                "Bones, while you are up, would you get me
                a gingerale?"
                "Damnit Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a waiter!"

                                        OZ
                                seismo!rlgvax!oz

------------------------------

From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galaxitive
Date: 9 Feb 85 03:03:01 GMT

...Or Rattletrap Galactica, ad nausium...

Hey, it wasn't *that* bad.  I thought several of the segments showed
some real imagination.  Two things killed the show for me: Budget
problems, which with Larson means 'use the same film over and over
and...'.  It didn't work for Irwin Allen, and it really detracted
from the show.  The other serious mistake was 'Galactica 1980'.
Ugh.  Casting, plots...  There was exactly one passable segment.
Larson should have either let Galactica die a noble death, or took
up the story in the FAR future, (say 4 generations) with a
completely new cast and MORE MONEY!

The plot still has possibilities, with the right touch...

Now, Buck Rogers and (by the way) Knight Rider, are quite a
different story.  Retch!  Gag!

        Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
        {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz (jagardner)
Subject: The Prisoner
Date: 8 Feb 85 20:13:10 GMT

People who are interested in the Prisoner may be interested in "The
Prisoner Puzzle", a booklet put together by TVOntario (Ontario's
equivalent of PBS) when they were showing the series five or six
years ago.  In those days, TVO had to go out of its way to prove
that entertaining shows like the Prisoner were also educational,
since TVO's mandate is to provide _educational_ TV that doesn't
compete with commercial television.  At any rate, they followed each
show with a discussion of the episode's major themes, pointed out
nifty pieces of symbolism the viewer might have missed, and so on.
It got a little pompous, but it had good moments.

The booklet could be obtained at that time (and maybe now, for all I
know) by writing to TVOntario, Customer Relations Dept. in Toronto.
You should be able to get the address from a phone book -- most
major libraries in Canada carry U.S. phone books, so U.S. libraries
may have Toronto phone books.  (Maybe I'm being naive.)  Anyway, the
booklet contained a description and discussion of all 17 episodes,
in the order that they originally aired, plus an interview with
Patrick McGoohan, and other neat stuff.

By the way, I object to the statement made on the net that the
Prisoner is not SF.  The episode "A, B, or C", for example, contains
"dream-monitoring" equipment to see if Number 6 lets down his guard
when he's asleep (three guesses whether he does).  Much of the
series IS more down-to-earth, of course, but they didn't blink an
eye at departures from reality.

While we're on the subject of the Prisoner, I should point out that
it is a direct continuation of a series that aired as "Danger Man"
in Britain, and as "Secret Agent" in the U.S.  (Remember the big hit
song, "Secret Agent Man", that was its theme?)  In the last episode,
the secret agent (played by McGoohan) resigns from the agency
because he disapproves of what they did to a fellow agent who may or
may not have defected.  The lead-in to the Prisoner is obvious.  I
might also point out that the secret agent was never called by his
real name; he had a cover identity that they used most of the time,
but they made it clear that it was only a cover.  As the theme song
said, "They've given you a number and taken 'way your name."

Also, there were a few Prisoner paperbacks published a number of
years ago, in much the same style as the Man from UNCLE paperbacks
people may remember.  I've read one, by David Gerrold, I believe
(the famous tribbler).  In it, Number 6 and a romantic interest (a
woman prisoner who may or may not be working for Village
authorities) stage a production of Shakespeare's "Measure for
Measure" as a cover for an escape attempt.  An odd little book, with
the same sort of elegant paranoia of the show.

                                Jim Gardner
                                University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 85 14:56:19 EST
From: Andrew Malis <malis@BBNCCS.ARPA>
Subject: The Prisoner's village

The Prisoner's village is actually a resort in Wales.  It is the
Hotel Portmeirion, in Penrhyndeudraeth, Wales.  It is credited at
the end of (at least) the final show, and it was included in an
article about Wales several years ago in Travel & Leisure (I think I
have it saved somewhere, but it would take me a while to dig it
out).  If you want to find it on a map, it is on Tremadoc Bay, and
is close to Portmadoc.

I've always wanted to visit there ever since I saw the original
broadcasts of the show, but have never made it, even though I have
been to Wales (so close, and yet so far).  Unfortunately, I heard
that they had a major fire several years ago, but I think they
rebuilt and restored the place.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone reading this that has
actually be there.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:38 CDT
From: pduff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
To: PHYSICS@sri-unix.ARPA
Subject: Einstein's Time Capsule?

I came across an item somewhere about Albert Einstein having left a
time capsule with instructions for it to be opened 25 (?) years
after his death.  Can anyone confirm its existence?  Was it unsealed
in 1984?  What was inside?  There might be notes concerning
interesting theories or speculations which he chose not to make
public while he was alive, or perhaps his predictions of what would
develop from his ideas.

   regards, Patrick

   Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621***          pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay
   5049 Walker Dr. #91103                  214/480-1905 (work)
   The Colony, TX 75056-1120               214/370-5363 (home)
   (a suburb of Dallas, TX)

e ** (pi * i) = (cos pi) + (sin pi) * i = -1  ;Think about it

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Feb 85 0037-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #51
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cherryh (2 msgs) & Davidson,
                Films - Threads,
                Television - Quark (2 msgs) & The Prisoner (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ewok@ucbvax.ARPA (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: C.J.Cherryh books
Date: 9 Feb 85 06:48:37 GMT

        Could someone please give me a list of the books in any/all
series by C.J. Cherryh in order? I would like to read some of her
books, but I have not been able to figure out what book to read
first....

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh books
Date: 10 Feb 85 17:16:04 GMT

>       Could someone please give me a list of the books in
> any/all series by C.J. Cherryh in order? I would like to read some
> of her books, but I have not been able to figure out what book to
> read first....

Why don't you try _Downbelow Station_ and _40,000 in Gehanna_.
Downbelow Station was very well written and I recommend it highly.

-eli
Eli Liang
   University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
   ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep  CSNET: liang@cvl
   UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: "Gor"
Date: 8 Feb 85 10:31:09 GMT

To make this posting more worthwhile for people bored by male sadism
and female masochism, here's a little game...  I have two copies of
Avram Davidson's MUTINY IN SPACE, one printed in 1964 (price: 50
cents, a miracle like unto the legendary cup of coffee) and one
printed in 1974 (95 cents... what is this nation coming to?).
Davidson clearly had little control over the book; the title was
changed from VALENTINE'S PLANET, and the blurbs are amazingly
unrepresentative of the contents.  You may be amused to observe the
manner in which the later blurb improves on the earlier one:

1964    'Pirates of the spaceways -- and a planet ripe for plunder'

   'MAROONED on an unknown planet, the PERSEPHONE's officers moved
   warily through the forest.  They had escaped the mutineers, but
   they knew there was danger ahead ... but what was it?  The answer
   came in a howl of fury and a charge by grotesque armed figures
   an army of death-dealing women!'

1974    'A SCIENCE FICTION BLOCKBUSTER!  Castaways of the universe
        marooned on a lost planet of war-crazed females!'

   'Rond and his crew had been left to die slowly on an unknown
   planet.  As they moved warily through the alien forest they heard
   the eerie rhythms coming toward them.  Then they saw the
   grotesque figures[:] A BIZARRE ARMY OF SCREAMING WOMEN!  Masked,
   brandishing gleaming swords [um...], rattling their terrible
   death drums, howling with the fury of some primitive blood lust
   -- and they were attacking!  As the scarlet waves of growling
   women approached, Rond and his men began to run -- back into the
   dark forest of looming horror...'

Needless to say this scene has a somewhat different emphasis in the
book.  (The story is basically a re-telling of the Conquistadores
vs.  the Indians, with a few variations, such as making the 'Indian'
side be a Japanese-style samurai culture run by women.  Not
Davidson's best effort by any means...)

Do other folks have 'Kilgore Trout'-type blurbs they'd care to
share?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: THREADS
Date: 9 Feb 85 22:54:43 GMT

                              THREADS
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     One of the most frightening films I ever remember seeing is
Peter Watkins's Oscar-winning short, THE WAR GAME, which includes
some very believable and realistic footage of Britain during and
after a nuclear war.  We have seen a lot of dramatizations of the
effects of nuclear war over the past years or so, including the much
bally-hooed THE DAY AFTER.  They are all very good at underscoring
what a pity it would be to be in a nuclear war.  The films we see
almost entirely ignore any but the luckiest 5% of the population.
They show people whose lives are disrupted and who may eventually
die from the effects of the bomb.  There is never any mention of
things like fire-storms or triage or the millions painfully maimed
by the attack.  And, incidentally, now that we have conveniently
forgotten how terrible nuclear war is, all of a sudden it is once
more "thinkable."

     Now the BBC--who footed the bill for THE WAR GAME but decided
it was too frightening to show--has made THREADS, a film about
nuclear war that covers some of the same ground.  THREADS is sort of
a British DAY AFTER with some of the effective moments of THE WAR
GAME thrown in.  It falls short of THE WAR GAME in several important
ways--I'll get to those later--but it is by far the second best film
depiction of nuclear war I can remember seeing.

     Now my measure of quality is for the most part accuracy.
TESTAMENT was a very well-made film, beautifully directed with great
insights into the characters.  But while those characters were
believable, the situation was not.  The producers failed to do their
homework.  The characters in THREADS are not nearly as
well-developed, but most of what was wrong with THREADS were
omissions, not outright inaccuracies.  It presents a genuinely
possible scenario of nuclear war and its aftermath.  Its estimations
of the impact of nuclear winter are on the light side, but not
entirely outside the range of scientific opinion.

     Where THREADS falls short of THE WAR GAME is simply that it
conveys less information and pulls its punches a bit more.  In
THREADS we see what is happening and get a few words on the screen
explaining it.  THE WAR GAME had a dispassionate narrator explaining
what was happening.  Instead of seeing fires, the narrator explained
the nature and scope of a firestorm so that you know what you are
seeing is not an isolated fire, but part of a huge mire measured in
square miles.  In some ways THREADS does tell more than THE WAR
GAME, just by virtue of the fact that it has more recent information
and that it is longer, so can show more of the aftermath.  But for
THREADS to fall so close in quality to what I obviously use as the
yardstick for nuclear war films, I have to rate THREADS high.  Give
it a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!acsgjjp@topaz (Jim Poltrone)
Subject: Re: Quark
Date: 9 Feb 85 20:11:38 GMT

> I believe Buck Henry was one of those who thought up the show with
> Richard Benjamin.  I have a vague memory of one or both of them
> talking about it as an upcoming show on another show, maybe SNL or
> Johnny Carson.

I believe Sue's right.  Last month, I was at a friend's house
watching some videotapes that someone else had brought, and on one
of them was "Quark".  (I remember the show because I have the theme
on audio tape.  By the way, someone else said that the Quark theme
was the Star Trek theme backwards.  Can anyone with a reel-to-reel
confirm this?) I was surprised when I saw "Created by Buck Henry" in
the episode's opening titles.

Also, I remember Buck Henry making many guest appearances on SNL
(remember Uncle Roy?).  Also, I believe Richard Benjamin (and his
wife, Paula Prentiss) were the guests at one time or another.  Did
she (Paula) ever appear on "Quark"?  And whatever happened to the
Bettys?
                                    "The Galaxy, ad infinitum!"
"Is there liver in reality?"
Jim Poltrone  (a/k/a Poltr1, the Last of the Raster Blasters)
uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!acsgjjp
ARPAnet, CSnet: acsgjjp%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY
BITNET:  ACSGJJP@SUNYABVA

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 85 00:13:17 PST
Subject: Quark Again

        I've allways loved the show as a very enjoyable example of
television.  But it seems you have forgotton my favorite player:
ERGO, THE PLASTIC PET!  Who eats 'Plasto's - Plastic food for
Plastic pets.  Never will forget the 'Star Notes' by the captain as
he keeps one eye on his always hungry pet.  And then there's the
Ol' Doc - Jean/Gean attacks:
        "Doc, Just look at this," in a strong, voice.
        "What is it Jean?"
        "My, neadlepoint!"
        "Captain!, I'm going to kill him!"
But what is all the reminiscing?  I have the tapes.
        Just checked with my friends (they're identical twins) and
they have tentativly agreed to allow me to copy their collection.
Now, if anyone is interested, contact me at one of the following
addresses.  I think the price will be an extra tape of good quality.

--Victor O'Rear         {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro
                        bang!crash!victoro@nosc
                        sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd

                        USNail: c/o STAR-San Diego
                                Post Awful Box 15373
                                Sandy Eggo, Ca.  92115

------------------------------

From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 9 Feb 85 09:54:08 GMT

>>    The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the
>> balloon-like entity which guards the perimeter of the village.
>> The way I see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very
>> clever No. 6 from escaping the island, but is this really
>> believeable?  Or am I being unreasonably picky?
>>    Any thoughts on this?
>
> About ROVER.  I find him silly.  Many times you can see the string
> pulling him along the water, but I don't mind.  When you love a
> show you take a lot of things as givens.  ROVER could have been
> done more convinsingly, but such is life in the Village.

I haven't spotted the wires on Rover yet, but then I'm not really
looking for them either (reminds me of when STAR WARS was on CBS and
you could see all the matte lines and little squares of film where
they inserted the TIE fighters and X-Wings...but thats another flame
for another newsgroup...).  Since The Prisoner is really a "people"
show as opposed to a "hardware" show, any little things that I might
have trouble believing in (like Rover, all those invisible cameras
that are everywhere and seem to follow folks around without them
noticing [except for Number Six, of course], the mind control
techniques used in "A, B, and C"... all these things are ignored by
my conscious mind.  I'm too wrapped up in the story to notice!

> I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at
> least get him rescued.  Q: Any thought as to where the Village
> really is?  Not that many places can have the kind of climate they
> do (rarely rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.
> Whaddya think?

The last episode of the series is absolutely fantastic.  No matter
what you want to see, you probably won't be disappointed.  The
ending has some amazing twists that have kept people puzzling over
them since the series was first shown.

As for where the Village is, my vote is for somewhere in Greece.  In
an early episode of "Danger Man" (known in the U.S. as "Secret
Agent"), the Patrick McGoohan character is sent to Greece to try and
keep a British agent from "selling out".  One of the locations
looked EXACTLY like the area where the Village is, in fact, it
looked just like a shot of the beach in front of the Village.
Coincidence?  Maybe...you never know.  At the end of that episode,
when Drake (McGoohan's character) finds out that his bosses lied to
him in order to get the other agent back, and that the agent was to
be arrested despite Drake's promises to the contrary, I realized
just why he resigned!!  If I worked for a bunch of guys like that,
I'd jump ship too!

        Be Seeing You,

                .rne.
Real World: Ernie Longmire
            311 Don St. SE
            Los Lunas, NM  87031-9405
UUCP: {{purdue,cmcl2,ihnp4}!lanl,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
GalactiNet: 1/MkyWy/r9.844-T00.05'24"-S206.28'49"
      /3/U.S.AT&T/5058655516

------------------------------

From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle)
Subject: What is "The Prisoner"? / Numerology
Date: 10 Feb 85 17:20:35 GMT

> One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a
> number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy,
> with duties to perform in the running of the Village, and
> subordinates under his control, and for whom he should be
> responsible. This doesn't jibe with the reason for him being put
> in there. I recall him being pressured to take part in certain
> Village activities, and otherwise "play his role", which he
> resisted. Having an uncooperative low-numbered person would put a
> crimp (cramp?) in the functioning of the Village. I always thought
> it would have been better if he had been "Number 47" or "Number
> 238" or something, instead of "Number 6".

> Will Martin

Ah, but that was part of the challenge.  Number Six had to "discover
who are the prisoners and who the warders".  It would have been too
easy if one were assured that all people with numbers < N were on
the side running the Village -- no one would trust them.  [cf. the
episode titled "It's Your Move" for Number Six's approach to this
question.]

However, the magnitude of the number did relate, in a broad way, to
how important the person was, regardless of which side they were on.
If you met Number 113B (there was one, really) you knew he was a
pretty small fish, and key figures had numbers like 8, 12, and 24.

But to confound any rule you might make up, there were those
characters who didn't go by their numbers, if they had any, such as
The Professor, the Colonel, Alison, Roland Walter Dutton, and, of
course the Butler.

         Guy Riddle  AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey
                        ggr.btl@csnet-relay.ARPA
                                ihnp4!ggr

------------------------------

From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 10 Feb 85 17:40:10 GMT

> About ROVER.  I find him silly.  Many times you can see the string
> pulling him along the water, but I don't mind.  When you love a
> show you take a lot of things as givens.  ROVER could have been
> done more convinsingly, but such is life in the Village.  I hope
> they tell us who >1 is at the end of the series, or at least get
> him rescued.  Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is?
> Not that many places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely
> rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.  Whaddya think?
>
> "I am a MAN, not a number!!"  -Number Six
>
> -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

Actually they did build a mechanical Rover contraption, but it
rolled over and died when they started filming.  The Rover they did
use was a weather balloon, with shots of a Lava Lite (do they still
make them?)  to show Rover's emergence from the depths of the Sea.
I actually like Rover -- it was cute and liked to cuddle.

You do find out who Number One is, in the last episode of course.
Or maybe he really isn't Number One.  You'll have to make up your
own mind after seeing it -- you don't expect an unambiguous ending,
do you?

The outdoor scenes of the Village were filmed in Wales, at a resort
hotel called the Portmeiron (if I remember correctly).  Watch the
credits for the final episode -- it's listed there.

And the most frequent version of the quote is "I'm not a number, I'm
a Free Man!".

        Guy Riddle AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey
                        ggr.btl@csnet-relay.ARPA
                                ihnp4!ggr

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Feb 85 1030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #52
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE PRISONER ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 85 23:39:04 EST
From: Kevin.Dowling@CMU-RI-ROVER
Subject: The Prisoner

        There has been discussion of the series The Prisoner over
the past several weeks mirroring a similar discussion several years
ago on SF-lovers. In fact it took place in the fall of 1980.

        Over the years many fan-clubs or "cults" (from the media)
sprang up when the series was run in the early and late 1970's on
television.  Fanzines and newsletters like Rover, The Green Dome,
No. 6, The Prisoner Newsletter, in addition to many fanzines of the
times covering the series.  In England there were probably many such
organizations "Six of One Club" being one of the largest.  Rover was
a SIG of Mensa and I don't know if any of these 'zines are still
published. (With only 17 episodes you can only publish so much!)

        Some background on the show; this is from an English
magazine called PrimeTime that I found in an SF/comix shop, I've
condensed and paraphrased some of the content. There is quite a bit
of detail I left out too for the sake of brevity.

        On Sunday 4 February 1968 several million viewers tuned in
to Fall Out, the 17th and final episode of The Prisoner. Written,
directed and coproduced by its star Patrick McGoohan, the episode
had been completed at the eleventh hour and was expected to answer a
series of important questions set up by the previous 16 films. A
final narrative resolution was eagerly awaited by a viewing public
who had been intrigued, mystified, confused, and excited by a unique
mixture of Danger Man meets Kafka in Alice in Wonderland.

[Danger Man was renamed Secret Agent Man for the US market]

        Ralph Smart's creation Danger Man was enjoying enormous
success in the mid-sixties. It had developed from the half-hour
format to an hour-long show and McGoohan, in the role of John Drake,
was possibly ITC's most popular 'star', with Roger Moore as The
Saint in close second place. It was precisely at this time, when
confidence in the series' continued popularity resulted in producing
the first colour programmes in Britain that McGoohan resigned.
Danger Man was finished.

        Possible contractual obligations to ITC, Lew Grade's desire
to keep a valuable asset, and McGoohan's own determination to 'hook'
Grade with a project of his own, led the search for a new vehicle
for McGoohan. The demise of Danger Man would mean the loss of jobs
for those working on the series. It was George Markstein, then story
editor of the series who, aided by his desire to continue working,
produced the initial idea of The Prisoner.

        From his own experiences working for British Intelligence,
Markstein knew that institutions existed for the housing of
ex-spies; that those who 'knew too much' could never be allowed
freedom, even in retirement, and that highly organised and
sophisticated programmes of systematic brainwashing were
commonplace. It was called 'disorientation' and would provide the
basis of a new programme.

        Perhaps the most ingenious aspect of Markstein's original
use of the idea was that it exploited an actual situation; McGoohan
was, in televison and in real terms, about to become a retired
secret agent. The idea of building a series around an agent (John
Drake?) who resigns for reasons of his own, possibly at the height
of his career (McGoohan) was unique in its exploitation of an
established television character and persona. The Prisoner would
inevitably be informed by Danger Man, capitalising on the latter's
success and investing itself with a sense of pre-existing history
from another time. However, John Drake, by name the property of
Ralph Smart, could have proved a costly inclusion in copyright
terms. The solution was a number. No. 6.

        Markstein in a sense was the architect of The Prisoner. The
idea was simple; a man resigns from secret work, is abducted by
persons unknown and finds himself in a strange Kafkaesque
environment, not unpleasant in itself but all powerful. His captors
want to know why he resigned.  He wants to know who they are and
most importantly, the identity of the man at the top, No. 1. His
fellow prisoners are also ex-agents of various kinds who have
succumbed to extreme but subtle coercion. Questions: Who are the
prisoners and who are the warders? Will he escape? Can he maintain a
strength of will where others have failed? Will he ever discover
which power or individual is behind such an elaborate exercise? Why
did he resign?  In short, The Prisoner was conceived as a spy
thriller consciously constructed around more 'profound' notions of
the individual versus the system, personal freedom and personal
prisons.
                It was this double edge of action spy thriller and
the more serious and self-evident thematic concerns which signaled
The Prisoner's ambitions (or pretensions) and set it apart from
other ITC products like The Avengers, The Saint, and Man in a
Suitcase. Markstein then began to dress his skeleton with several
elements which contributed to the 'otherness' of The Prisoner; The
location was simply called The Village; people were known only by
number; money was replaced by an efficient credit card system of
'units'; 24-hour video camera surveillance of every inch of The
Village prevented secrecy of any kind; sophisticated brainwashing,
usually achieved in combination with hallucinatory drugs, was
frequently employed. A silent dwarf butler wandered through the
stories; A new No. 2 appeared regularly; ultimate power was
concealed.

        Some preliminary sketches of interiors were added and
McGoohan added photographs of the Welsh Italianate hotel village
Portmerion, where he had previously worked on location for an early
Danger Man.

        Lew Grade made an attempt to convince McGoohan to continue
with Danger Man before yielding to the new project, which he
confessed was beyond his comprehension but was 'so crazy' it might
just work. The script for the first episode, Arrival, was written by
Markstein with assistance from McGoohan. It was at this point that
McGoohan contibuted particular detail to The Prisoner. His ideas
were primarily concerned with the 'look' of the new series at this
stage. His idea about Portmerion was a crucial one, but then came
the piped blazers worn by all Village inhabitants, the symbol of the
penny farthing bike and many other small detail, vital elements in
sealing The Prisoner's image of 'otherness'; a vision of malevolent
pantomine.  The mysterious and quasi-symbolism of the programmes and
their bizarre visual realisations contributed greatly to The
Prisoner's initial (and lasting) imapact.

        Jack Shampan, who had prepared the original sketches at
treatment stage, was now official art director. His set's for No.
2's inner sanctum and the Village Control Room are similarly
impressive in their 'oddness' and 'modernity'. His own contributions
included mini moke taxis, cordless telephones, information stands
etc.

        McGoohan increasingly assumed control of the direction the
series was going. What seems to have been McGoohan's rapidly
developing 'vision' about The Prisoner ran contrary to that of
script editor George Markstein, and perhaps many others. Markstein
began to sense that his structure was being eroded and consequently
that the roof was in danger of falling in.  The balance of spy
thriller and allegory was tipping towards the latter and he, like
the new No. 2 in each episode, was becoming of less importance to an
emerging No. 1. According to Markstein Many Happy Returns represents
how he envisioned a second season of The Prisoner developing; No. 6
escapes to the outside world, only to find that 'they' are always
there.  The Prisoner going global may or may not seem difficult to
imagine in the light of how the first series finally chose to
resolve the story with extra episodes.

        After the first season of 13 episodes some re-negotiations
took place between Everyman Films and ITC. It was jointly decided
that rather than produce and season of 13 films after a break that
Everyman should produce another 4 episodes to add to the existing
material and aim for one season of 17 episodes and an American sale.

        Do Not Forsake Me O My Darling did not feature either
Portmerion or McGoohan who was off filming Ice Station Zebra. Then
came two padding episodes produced and directed by Tomblin, these
episodes have been compared to Bonanza and The Avengers,
respectively. These are also strangely unsettling when viewed in the
flow of episodes due to their complete disruption of expectation.

        The final episode Fall Out was finished just in time for
it's scheduled transmission date. McGoohan through necessity and
design decided to abandon 'reason' and explanation and opt for the
symbolic ending.

        The immediate result of the Fall Out transmission was,
predictably, disaster. Switchboards were jammed; An ATV
Correspondent produced a 'Plain Man's Guide to The Prisoner' for
dispatch to viewers who had written asking for an explanation, some
having watched the series for 17 weeks, only to be slapped in the
face. The letter's page of the Times was crammed with complaints of
the 'we've been conned' kind and ITC must have wondered how foreign
sales were going to fare. McGoohan went into hiding and was soon to
leave the country.

        It's all there, if in somewhat simplified terms: discussion
of political manipulation, the 'inner' person, social criticism,
fantasy and myth. The programmes employed mythological allegory,
nursery rhymes, archetypes and symbols as vehicles for such
discussions. Finally but crucially, all roads led to a humanist plea
for the individual's right to be an individual; a timeless 'message'
which continues to elicit substantial and continued support.

                        nivek
Arpanet:  nivek@cmu-ri-rover
Bell:     (412) 578-8830
USmail:   Robotics Institute CMU
          Schenley Park
          Pgh, PA 15213

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!darrelj@topaz (Darrel VanBuer)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 9 Feb 85 16:15:04 GMT

The Prisoner was actually filmed at the Hotel Portmerion in Wales
(so in some sense, that's where the village is, or could be).

Rover was something of an accident.  It was originally envisioned
(and built) as a robot/machine-like entity.  Unfortunately their
machine proved to be very cranky, especially in water.  It was out
of commission and they had to film something, when they happened to
see these weather balloons laying about...

Darrel J. Van Buer, PhD
System Development Corp.
2500 Colorado Ave
Santa Monica, CA 90406
(213)820-4111 x5449
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,orstcs,sdcsvax,ucla-cs,akgua}
                                                !sdcrdcf!darrelj
VANBUER@USC-ECL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: dciem!reid@topaz (Reid Ellis)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 9 Feb 85 05:39:38 GMT

[Michael Weiss writes]
>Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is?  Not that many
>places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely rains, never
>cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.  Whaddya think?

The Village scenes were shot in a town named Port Marion in southern
England.  Our family visited there a few years ago.  It is a tourist
attraction due to its definite air of unreality.  A lot of the
buildings are about 2 feet thick so that you open the front door and
walk right through out the back.  There is even a statue there
dedicated to the summer of some year [1965?] just because it was a
really nice summer.  If you are ever in the area, plan a visit.  You
can eat in a restaurant that overlooks the beach where #6 wrote
"Help me!" in the sand in giant letters.

Reid Ellis
{allegra,decvax,duke,floyd,linus}!utzoo!dciem!reid

------------------------------

From: convexs!ayers@topaz
Subject: Re: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 7 Feb 85 20:13:00 GMT

An important point:

There were many hints (but no solid clues) that the Village was run by

a) the "ememy"
b) the "company"
c) the british secret service
d) all or none of the above

Of course, the ending explained it all (or did it?)...

                                blues, II

------------------------------

From: ratex!mck@topaz (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan)
Subject: The Prisoner -- One Number's Opinion
Date: 8 Feb 85 03:21:35 GMT

     Most of the *Prisoner* episodes were good; two were bad (the
mind- swapping episode and the one where he causes a computer to
blow-up by asking it a vacuous question).
     One episode was just simply BRILLIANT!!!  The episode where
they used Jungian symbolism (7?) was damned-near PERFECT!!!  You
don't have to accept Jungian philosophy (I generally don't) to
appreciate it.

     By the way, does anybody out there have any idea where I might
buy one of the identifying buttons from the series -- and about how
much it would cost?

                                        Be seeing you,
                                        Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan
                                        Number 288-66-7627

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz (Brad Templeton)
Subject: The Prisoner - Who is #1? MASSIVE SPOILER
Date: 10 Feb 85 05:00:00 GMT

They reveal who #1 is in every episode, right at the beginning.

"I am the new number two."

"Who is number one?"

"You are, number six!"

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 85 10:35:42 PST (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Cc: Poskanzer.SV@XEROX.ARPA (SmegmaLord), marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA

> The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER About ROVER.
> I find him silly.

Arrrrg!  I LOVES ROVER!  He's the best part of the whole series.  A
local PBS station did a Patrick McGoohan (sp?) interview.  Good ol'
#6 explained the genesis of Rover.  It seems that the original Rover
(Rover Prime) was a robot, a mechanical dog-like creature on treads
(shades of K-9??).  But the first episode required Rover to "swim"
in the sea.  Needless to say, Rover Prime shorted out and expired
with a puff of smoke.  So #6 and the producer were standing on the
beach, trying to decide what to do about Rover, when #6 notice a
weather balloon floating above a weather station that was close-by
the shooting location.

I could just see the lightbulb light up over his head!

So ROVER SECUNDUS was born.  I think it was an excellent idea.  That
bouncing spheroid seemed so innocent, so cute looking ... but what a
deception!  ROVER, being so simple and featureless, allowed one's
imagination to expand at the horror and malevolence that lurked
within its gaseous core.  If I saw a two meter diameter blob
bouncing down the street ROARING towards me, I'd be scared pissless!

Sigh ... this is the result of the Star Wars mentality ...
everything's gotta be gee-whiz-flash-bang-hi-rez-sim-com-3D or else
it's "silly".  Is there no room left for the imagination?  If you
are unimpressed by Rover Secundus, don't bother reading Lovecraft.
You'll be hopelessly bored.  [I think Rover would fit quite nicely
into the Cthulhu Mythos, don't you?]

Perry Abdul Alhazr'd

"Who is Number One?"
"You are  Number Six ..."

------------------------------

From: hou5h!mgh@topaz (Marcus Hand)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 11 Feb 85 15:51:36 GMT

The village used in the prisoner is in Cornwall, the
southwestern-most county of England where its always damp, rarely
snows except on the moors and generally has some pretty lush and
interesting vegetation.  The actual village's name escapes me at
present, so I'll look on a map when I get home and see if I remember
the name.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Feb 85 1045-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Delany & Silverberg,
               Films - The Worst SF Movie (5 msgs) & 
                       Star Trek IV (2 msgs),
               Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs) & Old TV Shows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gitpyr!robert@topaz (Robert Viduya)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 10 Feb 85 13:02:21 GMT

> Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony?  I think he's great.
> His best work is done with the Xanth series.  Anybody have an up
> to the day list of his works?

I just finished reading his Xanth series last month and I would have
to say it was one of the better science-fiction/fantasy series
I've read in a while.  He's got quite an imagination and his sense
of humor (levity?) isn't bad (I especially liked 'Dragon on a
Pedestal' in this respect; Princess Ivy was great in her role as the
'innocent manipulator').

I do have one gripe about the series.  Anthony listened too much to
his readers and went out of his way to stick their puns into his
stories (especially the later books).  I felt they were getting a
little out of hand.

Robert Viduya
Georgia Institute of Technology

{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}
   !gatech!gitpyr!robert
{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!robert

------------------------------

Date: Mon Feb 11 20:49:06 1985
From: mcb%lll-tis.ARPA@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Delany's STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND

Delany, Samuel R.  STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND.
(Bantam, December 1984, hc, 368 pp., $16.95. ISBN 0-553-05053-2.)

There have always been two Delanys: the one that is fascinated by
communications theory, linguistics, semiotics, and high technology;
and the one obsessed with slavery, rough sex, and degradation.  His
books based on these themes and images have tended to fall into one
category or the other: BABEL-17, NOVA, and TRITON being typical of
the former and DHALGREN and most of TALES OF NEVERYON the latter.

In STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND Delany's two worlds blend
in a forceful and compelling manner. Set in a universe of dazzling
information technologies and designed environments, the novel begins
with a slave who, having submitted to psychosurgery, is much like a
blank slate upon whom the intricacies and intrigues of the book can
be written.

Delany shifts gears quickly to develop the interstellar culture by
introducing Marq Dyeth, an "industrial diplomat" (that's a
combination trade emissary, problem solver, and general consultant)
and Marq's home on the planet Velm. This is a universe populated by
humans and an alien race (described visually only in tantalizing
nuggets) with whom humans have lived in cooperation for many
generations. In this society, the words "she" and "her" describe
sentients of both races and both genders; "he" and "him" have quite
a different meaning entirely!

The information culture on Marq's home planet is full of
technological surprises (Delany has invented some unique
replacements for encyclopedia and telephone) and Byzantine
intrigues. On myriads of planets, proponents of two rival models for
social and cultural development clash and contend for political and
economic ascendancy; the flow of information between societies is
controlled by an organization called the Web, sort of a
meta-government with apparently unlimited resources.

Cultural institutions, both alien and human, are put forth by
Delany, shaken as if inside a gift box, examined, and dissected.
Rat Korga, the slave, whose life consisted of rude meals, hovels,
excrement, and rough sex, is thrust by events into the
flashing-lights-and-computer-hookup world of the Web and its friends
and enemies and collaborators and betrayers. Marq Dyeth, comfortable
among his family (and what a family it is!) and home, has learned
things that he may not wish to have learned, about the political
realities of the civilization and about friends, new and old.

As a comedy of manners, STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is
unassailable, though the manners and institutions dealt with are
fictional and fanciful; as a technological sf novel it is among the
best, in pure terms of speculation and invention. The academic and
intellectual Delany supervenes over the dark and sordid one, so the
novel is cerebral rather than visceral.  But Delany could easily be
the finest prose stylist writing in English today, inside or outside
the sf genre. His language never fails to sparkle: in many passages,
each word seems chosen like a crystal that, when struck exactly,
will resonate with a clarity of tone and harmonic that suggest
meanings and shadows of meaning only hinted at when the phrase is
first read. Yes, it's THAT good.

STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is one of those rare books
without a flaw or blemish. Had I been the editor, I would not have
been able to find a single word to change or a passage that I'd
refer to the author for clarification. However, not every such book
is worthy of the praise that this one deserves; some are held back
by their internal limitations. Not so here. Only an abject failure
in THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES, which will finish
the tale begun in STARS IN MY POCKET, could possibly lessen Mr.
Delany's achievement.
                                Michael C. Berch
                                mcb@lll-tis.ARPA
                                {akgua,ihnp4,sun}!idi!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles
Reply-to: "Alastair Milne" <milne@uci-icse.arpa>
Date: 10 Feb 85 01:38:28 PST (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> Has anyone out there read the "Majipoor Chronicles", by Robert
> Silverberg?  There are three books (so far?) in the series..
>  1: "Lord Valentine's Castle"
>  2: "The Majipoor Chronicles"
>  3: "Valentine Pontifex"
> I think these books were very imaginative and entertaining.  My
> favorite authors are Jack C. Chalker, Robert Silverberg, Juanita
> Coulson, Jose' Farmer("Riverworld"), Andre Norton, and Ray
> Bradbury.
>
> My selections for the best SF movies are(not in order of
> preference): Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T., Star Wars
> and (though more on the fantasy side) Raiders of the Lost Ark.
>     Mark Rand  (Tigqc356@Cunyvm)

  I have indeed read "Majipoor Chronicles", and was very impressed
with the stories.  One comes to understand Majipoor much better for
taking a brief walk through its history.  Personally I liked it
better than "Lord Valentine's Castle", though my best friend feels
the opposite.

  I have also ready the 3rd one, "Valentine Pontifex", and enjoyed
it greatly.  I'm not sure, though, whether all the things that
needed explaining actually were explained.  But even if they didn't
(I don't remember just now), I found the ending very satisfying.
And it left me wanting more.

  My list of favourite authors has to start with Isaac Asimov and
Arthur C.  Clarke, though not necessarily in that order.  After
that, the list varies with the books considered.  Ursula K. LeGuin;
Robert Silverberg; Robert Heinlein (depending on which book); Larry
Niven and Jerry Pournelle as a team; several others of lesser
attraction.
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: unc!walker@topaz (Douglas Walker)
Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made
Date: 8 Feb 85 19:57:56 GMT

    There are at least three versions of Day of the Triffids that I
have heard of.  Two are relatively recent - late 70's - and the
other is much older.  I saw the original one, and I thought it
stunk.  The acting was terrible, the plot was abominable, and the
'special' effects were unmentionable.  I haven't seen the newer
releases, but with that plot, there's only so far they can go.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 04:02:34 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes and Repo Man

Well Joe, I'm afraid that you offended my favorite unfavored film.
That means either your interpretation is wrong or I'm just plain
nuts.  I suspect it is the latter.  I though AotKT was wonderfully
bad.  Watching the movie, I get the very distinct impression that it
was supposed to be bad.  It looked like it was a spoof on SF movies.
I really enjoyed it, but many people have said that I have a bizarre
sense of humor.  Oh well...

I have seen Repo Man, so you and your friends are not alone.  This
one also seemed to be a movie that wasn't supposed to be taken
seriously.  I thought the first third and last third were quite
good, but it severely lagged in the middle (I caught myself looking
at my watch).  There was alot of subtle humor (especially visual),
which means if you enjoyed it once, you should probably go see it a
few more times.
                                William LeFebvre
                                Department of Computer Science
                                Rice University
                                <phil@Rice.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 Feb 1985 12:17-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Worst SF movies

        BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS was a SF attempt to do The
Magnificent Seven in SF. IT WAS TERRIBLE. They even went so far as
to get Robert Vaughn in it in the same roll he played in the western
(well just about). This movie had nothing going for it at all. A
good example of a good plot spoiled by someone trying to make a fast
buck.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 12:36:36 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Rocky (Horrible)

> Very little actually.  In one scene in "Fame", two of the students
> from the School of the Performing Arts go to a New York theater to
> see "The Rocky Horror Picture Show."

I just saw Fame for the second time (the first in the theater when
it first came out) on it's TV debut.  The movie was hacked up to
leave some scenes out (RUINED for TELEVISION) and the dialog was
worked over.  I don't recall what happened in the uncut version, but
it was really stupid watching a theatre full of RHPS fans yelling
"Idiot" at Brent.  Idiot?

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 16:43 EST
From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: RE Bad Movies

As far as movies that caught me by surprise by their awfulness, The
Incredible Melting Man is unsurpassed.  I don't remember anything
about the people responsible for this or when it was originally
released.  I saw it at one of the annual Orsen Wells Sci-Fi Film
festivals in Cambridge about 3 years ago.  To give you an idea of
the quality of this event they will not release the film list before
they sell the tickets.  The basic plot was some Astrounauts get
iradiated or something near the rings of Saturn.  After returning,
one of the astronauts starts "melting" and becomes a totally
homicidal monster.  The special effects of his melting looked like
they covered the actor with peanut-butter and jelly.  The more he
melted the more the actor hunched over.  The peanut-butter monster
procedes to mutilate the entire cast introduced up to this point by
about halfway thru the movie.  Undaunted by this, a seemingly
endless stream of pointless characters are introduced for no other
reason than to provide more targets for the monster.  The agony
finally ends with the monster deflating into a big messy puddle
which a janitor mops up with no questions.  The only pleasure with
this film was joining in with the rest of the audience chearing on
the victims hoping that one of them would kill the monster and end
the movie.

John Mills

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 85 15:07:49 EST
From: Lear@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek 4

Would anyone venture to guess what Star Trek IV will be about?
                                        Eliot Lear
                                           [Lear@RU-BLUE.ARPA]

------------------------------

From: cae780!gordon@topaz (Brian Gordon)
Subject: Re: Star Trek 4
Date: 10 Feb 85 21:40:39 GMT

LEAR@RU-BLUE.ARPA writes:

>Would anyone venture to guess what Star Trek IV will be about?

Can it be anything but "The Search For Spock's Luggage"?

FROM:   Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems
USENET: {ucbvax, ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon
        {nsc, resonex, qubix, hplabs}!cae780!gordon
USNAIL: 1333 Bordeaux Drive, Sunnyvale, CA  94089
AT&T:   (408)745-1440

------------------------------

From: hou5g!jhc@topaz (Jonathan Clark)
Subject: Actual location of "The Village"
Date: 11 Feb 85 17:21:29 GMT

Sorry to contradict, but the real location of The Village (ie where
the series was shot) was in a place called Portmeirion, in North
Wales (quite near Anglesey and Snowdonia). The place was originally
built as a giant folly (hence the baroque combinations of
architecture) and people actually live and work (mostly commute)
there. I think that you have to pass a screening committee to be
allowed to live there, and it is definitely only for the rich. You
can visit it - it used to cost 4 pounds sterling to get in.
Sometimes you can see pottery in flash gift shops labelled
Portmeirion Pottery - it's the same place.  I believe that they used
the real-life inhabitants of Portmeirion as extras in the shooting
of The Prisoner.

Now - as to the fictional location - my vote goes for North
Australia somewhere.

Jonathan Clark
[NAC]!hou5g!jhc

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner's village
Date: 10 Feb 85 21:40:39 GMT

Barry and I stayed at Portmeirion for two nights back in 1971.  This
thing started as one man's private project for old buildings he
considered too beautiful to be torn down.  He purchased them and had
them moved to some land he owned in Wales.  Later on he opened it to
day-trippers, while allowing friends to stay over.  Still later on
it became a hotel.

When we were there, you had to stay at least three nights to qualify
for a cottage (the sort of place #6, etc.) were in.  Others stayed
in the hotel which had 18 rooms (numbered 1,2,3A,4,5,3,7...18).
(No, I don't know whether there was originally a room #6.)

It was a VERY posh place.  The towels were hung on a heated rack.
There was one room with a roaring fire and bound volumes of punch
from the turn of the century.  Each guestroom had a table assigned
to it in the dining room, and you could order your meal ahead of
time and specify the hour you'd be down --to find the first course
there a few seconds after you sat down.

One thing that amazed us was how much the cinematographers had
rearranged the place's geography.  For instance, the stone boat only
has sand around it when the tide is out on the estuary.  The green
dome is only a few yards in diameter.  It's not on the ocean but on
a tidal estuary of a river.  Stuff like that.

We found the establishment VERY cooperative.  When we left they
booked us a taxi ride to the train station, then suggested a nice
restaurant we could have dinner at that night in London -- and
phoned in a reservation for us.  And then explained this was normal
hotel courtesy and there would be no charge for the calls.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 Feb 1985 12:22-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Commander Cody  and Flash Gordon

        Hey, out there in netland, do any of you remember the 50's
TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I
recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. There was also
a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crabbe thing, that was a half
hour weekly show that lasted a year or two. Anyone recall, or have
any info on who starred, produced, etc. any of these?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Feb 85 1111-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #54
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:

              Books - May & Niven & Varley (2 msgs) &
                      Story Request (2 msgs) & Recommendations &
                      Secret Societies & Perry Rhodan,
              Films - Best SF Movie & Worst SF movie (3 msgs),
              Television - Quark (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 85 10:13:33 PST (Monday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Mark Purtill Re: Julian May Re: Felice

                    ***** SPOILER WARNING *****

I think the explanation of Felice's non-death was appropriate at the
beginning of <The Adversary>.  There was too much going on in <The
Non-born King> to put the explanation there.  I don't think it would
have had as great an impact.  Also, since this scene was the opening
of <The Adversary>, all though the book I had a sneaking suspicion
that Felice was going to show up and screw Aiken up good.  It's
possible Felice may end up uptime in the Milieu Trilogy - sounds
like a good story.  It's also possible there will be more stories
downtime in the Pliocene for Felice to bother, although I would
rather see more of May's universe than just the Pilocene.

I think the Guderian device operated on some silly principle that
allowed it to tap into a naturally occurring temporal annomally.
This is why there could be only one time portal in the Milieu -
there were no other temporal thingies to take advantage of.  This is
also why the device use so little energy - most of the energy came
from the Earth's magnetic fields or something.  Anyway, there's this
tunnel through time, and the Guderian device just allows you to zip
through, from either end.  N'est pas?

--Josh
"Plus qu'il n'en faut."

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 11 Feb 85 11:17:14 GMT

> Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ...

Well, not biological father.  But say, if Bey was the "father" of
Louis (as I had always presumed), there is a passage that confuses
me.  In the beginning of Ringworld they spend a great deal of time
discussing the Long Shot, and its previous flight.  It seems strange
to me that Louis didn't know it was his own father that had made
that flight (I think his name is even mentioned somewhere, but I
couldn't find it).

Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what
ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer?  He is by far my favorite
Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what
happens to him.

Derek Zahn @ wisconsin
{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek
derek@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

From: uvm-gen!cs102dbp@topaz (Damon Poole )
Subject: query
Date: 10 Feb 85 02:21:50 GMT

Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other than:

   TITAN
   WIZARD
   DEMON
   Picnic on Nearside
   Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?)
   Millenium
   The Persistance of Vision

The above list consists soley of _books_ or _collections_.

Thanks,

Damon B. Poole

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: re: query
Date: 11 Feb 85 19:38:22 GMT

>From: cs102dbp@uvm-gen.UUCP (Damon Poole )
>
>Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other than:
>
>   TITAN
>   WIZARD
>   DEMON
>   Picnic on Nearside
>   Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?)
>   Millenium
>   The Persistance of Vision

The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie Murders_.
It's up to his usual standard.  Enjoy.

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Subject: Yet Another "What's the title?"
Date: 10 Feb 85 23:31:46 PST (Sun)
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-750a>

Read this many many years ago, but can't remember the author or
title.  A truly demented SF novel.  Ranks right up there with Age of
the Pussyfoot.  Here goes.

A mad scientist invents a STD that eliminates aggression and warlike
tendencies in humans. His two idealistic lab assistants happily
spread it, targeting politicians in particular.  Humanity, it seems,
has a rosy future.  However, not long after the start of a major
undiscovered epidemic of this disease, packs of killer rabbits start
roaming the English countryside, tearing up whoever they find.  Far
from being rabid, it turns out, these rabbits have this new disease.
(I refuse to speculate on how they got it.)  Yes, it seems that the
mad scientist was really certifiable, and this disease of his merely
represses aggression for a while, then brings it out all at once.
Humanity, it seems, has a very short, nasty future ahead of it.

Anyone recognize it?

-jns

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 01:19:48 PST
Subject: Pointers please?

I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds.

--Victor O'Rear         {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro
                        bang!crash!victoro@nosc
                        sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:40 CDT
From: pduff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: misc. topics old and new


BOOK RECOMMENDATION FOR SF WRITERS, READERS:

\The Science Fiction Source Book/, edited by David Wingrove (Van 
Nostrand Reinhold Company Inc., copyright 1984, $25.50 in hardcover).
Briefly, this book is aimed at serious SF writers but most SF readers
will find some items of interest (although perhaps not $25.50 worth).
[Please, if you know of any other books which discuss the process of
authoring or publishing SF stories or books (not writing in general,
just SF writing) will you post title, author & publisher, and perhaps
a review on SF-Lovers?].

Table of Contents:

      FOREWORD by David Wingrove
      "A BRIEF HISTORY" by Brian W. Aldris
      "THE SF SUB-GENRES" by Brian Stableford
          Introduction
          Man and Machine
          Utopia and Dystopia
          Time Travel
          Aliens
          Space Travel
          Galactic Travel
          ESP
          Disasters
          Religion and Mythology
          Parallel Worlds and Alternate Histories
          Sex and Sensuality
          Alien Ecologies
          Magic
          The Media
          Inner Space
      "THE SCIENCE FICTION WRITER AT WORK"
          Introduction by Frederik Pohl
          "One Man's Work" by Poul Anderson
          "The Secret Mind" by Ray Bradbury
          "Is there a Story in it Somewhere?" by Richard Cowper
          "Wrestling with Words" by Christopher Evans
          "Mapping Imaginary Countries" by Ursula LeGuin
          "Equipment, Method and the Rest" by Larry Niven
          "Thirty Years of Writing" by Robert Silverberg
          "How I Became a Science Fiction Master in only 15
              Minutes a Day" by John Sladek
          "How I Write" by Lisa Tuttle
          "Where I get my Ideas" by Gene Wolfe
          "The Process of Composing" by Roger Zelazny
      "SCIENCE FICTION WRITERS: A CONSUMERS' GUIDE"
          [200 pages of biographies of SF writers]
          "First Magazine Publication of Leading Authors"
      "SCIENCE FICTION PUBLISHING"
          "The Science-Fiction Magazines" by David Wingrove
          "Magazine Checklist"
          "SF Publishing: The Economics" by Malcolm Edwards
      "SF CRITICISM" by David Wingrove
          "Criticism Checklist"
      "AFTERWORD" by Kingsley Amis
      "INDEX" [excellent!]

   regards, Patrick

Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr.
#91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363
(home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:40 CDT
From: pduff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: misc. topics old and new

I particularly enjoy SF books involving a group of either humans or 
aliens who have been observing and manipulating humanity throughout 
history.  (As a matter of fact, I am in the process of writing one 
right now.)  These usually take the form of someone stumbling across a
secret society of mentally, physically, or technologically advanced
humans, or perhaps being recruited by them.  I am *not* interested in
books which aren't written as fiction (unless they are *exceptionally*
interesting); many of the "Lost Continent" or "UFO" type books try to
pass themselves off as works of non-fiction to be taken seriously.
Any pointers to such SF (!) books would be appreciated (Warning: if
you use your real name, watch out for strangers in black limousines
for the next few months!).

   regards, Patrick

Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr.
#91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363
(home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:40 CDT
From: pduff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: misc. topics old and new

PERRY RHODAN (space-opera series popular in Europe):

Although I enjoyed the first Perry Rhodan book (#1 in the series), the
other four I've read were not very good.  I've heard that there are
now several hundred Perry Rhodan books, written by quite a few 
different authors.  Are *any* of them worth reading?  Are some so bad
they're good?  Is there anyone else out there who'll even admit to
having read one?  Has a list of titles with plot summaries and ratings
ever been published?  Do any of them contain interesting ideas, (i.e.,
gadgets, creatures, climates, etc.) even if the surrounding plot, etc.
is worthless?  I'll sometimes put up with poor writing or a stupid
plot if there's a good idea buried in there somewhere.

   regards, Patrick

Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr.
#91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363
(home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX)

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles
Date: 10 Feb 85 01:38:28 PST (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

  The *best* SF movie?  No question whatever in my mind: "2001: A
Space Odyssey".  A classic, and not just of SF.  Without question
the most beautiful and thought-provoking film I've ever seen.  I
much regret to say that "2010" is a shadow of it.  Not far after
"2001" I would place "Silent Running", possibly Bruce Dern's best
film, and likewise beautiful and thought-provoking.  "Fantastic
Voyage" also deserves a place on the list.  After them, the "Star
Wars" and "Star Trek" films.  And I *do* like Star Trek I, possibly
better than the others.  I will debate this separately, if anybody
cares to do so.
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles
Date: 10 Feb 85 01:38:28 PST (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

  The worst SF Movie?  Well, having been spared the dubious delights
of "Plan 9 from Outer Space", (and having to confess that "Lost in
Space", being a series and not a movie, probably doesn't qualify), I
think I'll go with "Mad Max" and the others that go with it: "Road
Warrior", "The Destruction of Jhared-Syn" (different story: same
ideas), "Adventure in the Forbidden Zone", and more of same, whose
titles I can't be bothered to find out.

                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz (Herb Chong [DCS])
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 11 Feb 85 16:17:47 GMT

>From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
>
>My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
>this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
>character who has quite large breasts.

I have watched this one several times.  the people I remember being
in the show are Richard Thomas and Robert Vaughn.  the heavy is
someone I recognize who normally plays such roles, but his name
escapes me.  I was always under the impression that the movie was
made as another spoof, albeit a rather high budget spoof.  the
special effects are very good (i've seen better, but only a few
times).  the plot is straight out of the space westerns or starwars.
for that matter, it has similarities to `the last starfighter'.
some of the things that stand out are the four white communal mind
aliens, the two `heat-emitting' aliens that glowed in the dark, and
the computer that ran Richard Thomas' ship.

Herb Chong...
UUCP:{decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 11 Feb 85 19:35:50 GMT

>From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
>
>My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
>this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
>character who has quite large breasts.

Once again I must protest.  Though not one of the greats, I've
always liked this film in the "mindless entertainment" category.
It's actually a science fiction remake of Akiro Kurosawa's _Seven
Samurai_. (I suspect it's really a remake of _The Magnificent Seven_
which was a western remake of _Seven Samurai_.) Kurosawa's original
is so good and durable that it seems impossible for anyone to do a
truly awful rehash of it.

In this case, the effects are reasonably well done, the plot is
Kurosawa's (of course), and there's enough humor -- intentional and
not -- to keep you from getting bored.  Liking it is probably a
matter for individual taste, but it's certainly not in the all time
bad category.

[***SPOILER*** BTW: The female character with the large "breasts" is
actually a spaceship -- "the last of the fighting Corsairs".  She
steals a lot of the show, too.]

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: convexs!ayers@topaz
Subject: Re: QUARK
Date: 7 Feb 85 20:16:00 GMT

Why does everyone always forget the one-eyed, gruff but likable
scientist?

[Some things were not meant for MAN to know...]

Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not an obstetrician!

blues, II

------------------------------

From: smu!jay@topaz
Subject: Re: Quark
Date: 8 Feb 85 20:23:00 GMT



No. The actor for Mr. Hengist (I can't remember the name) is a
smaller man.  Both are bald and there is a resemblance.  The actor
(for Hengist) played the part of Fergus Finglehoff in an episode of
Bewitched.  He was a frog turned into a human.

------------------------------

From: uok!dwhitney@topaz
Subject: Re: QUARK
Date: 8 Feb 85 06:22:00 GMT

Quark was one of my favorites, and the unforgettable character in my
mind was played by Conrad Janis (who later went on to dubious
notoriety as Mindy's father in Mork and Mindy..)  He played a
bureaucrat, if I remember correctly, but I cannot remember his exact
title.

This program premiered only a year or two after I had become a
big-time Trek fan, and I couldn't help but notice the devices
borrowed from Trek in the series.  The most obvious was, of course,
Captain Quark, but there were dozens of subtle little lines and
props which were simply stolen right out of the Trek set when no one
was watching.

I always thought NBC treated the show unfairly, it was entertaining,
funny, and totally harmless.  I secretly hoped it was all part of a
cloak-and dagger plan by the big-wigs at NBC to segue into a new
Star Trek series, the similarities in shows, etc....

Oh, well, so much for nostalgia.  Now all we have to enjoy any more
is that awful (in my opinion) "V" -- a giant step backward in
Science Fiction, I mean LIZARD CREATURES???  Give us all a break...

David Whitney
ctvax!uokvax!uok!dwhitney

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Feb 85 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:

          Books - Chalker & Niven & Varley &
                  A Request Answered & A Story Request,
          Films - Loose Ends in Films & Buckaroo Banzai &
                  Rocky Horror (3 msgs),
          Television - Quark & Old TV,
          Miscellaneous - Einstein & Science Fiction Book Club &
                  Space Burial

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 02:02:53-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Obie

Anybody know the origin of the name "Obie" in Jack Chalker's Well
World books?  He (Obie) claims at one point "My name is actually an
acronym but the words are so out of date that they have lost their
meaning."  Ideas, anybody?

------------------------------

From: jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington)
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 13 Feb 85 06:01:53 GMT

>> Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ...
>
> Well, not biological father.  But say, if Bey was the "father" of
> Louis (as I had always presumed), there is a passage that confuses
> me.  In the beginning of Ringworld they spend a great deal of time
> discussing the Long Shot, and its previous flight.  It seems
> strange to me that Louis didn't know it was his own father that
> had made that flight (I think his name is even mentioned
> somewhere, but I couldn't find it).

Remember, Beowulf was not permitted to have children by earth law
(because he was an albino). I guess he was never able to tell
Louis...

> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what
> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer?  He is by far my favorite
> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what
> happens to him.

You never know, Niven may be planning more stories... I sure hope
so...
                                        James Steven Carrington
                                        jsc@berkeley.arpa
                                        ucbvax!jsc

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 04:40:58-EST
From: Doug Alan <Nessus%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #54

>>Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material
>>other than:
>>
>>      TITAN
>>      WIZARD
>>      DEMON
>>      Picnic on Nearside
>>      Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?)
>>      Millenium
>>      The Persistence of Vision

>  The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie
>Murders_.  It's up to his usual standard.  Enjoy.

The book "Picnic on Nearside" is, I believe, "The Barbie Murders"
retitled.  There is also a retitled version (British import) of "The
Persistence of Vision" called "In the Hall of the Martian Kings.

There are several short stories I have seen of Varley's that are not
in either of his short story collections.  These include "Press
Enter", "The Pusher", "Options", and "Blue Champagne".

                           "Master of the Universe,
                            We were born to go as far as we can fly;
                            Turn electric dreams into reality...
                            Brainstorm here we go"

                                -Doug

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!thomas@topaz (Spencer W. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Identify This One, Please?
Date: 10 Feb 85 04:52:49 GMT

jpa144@cit-vax writes:
>> Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow
>>polarized the molecules (atoms?)  of both ship and sun allowing
>>those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun.  That's all
>>I remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun
>>and back out.
>
>I'm SURE this is <The Weather Man> or its sequel, both short
>stories by an author whose name escapes me at the moment.

I'm pretty sure the author was Lloyd Biggle, Jr.

=Spencer
        ({ihnp4,decvax}!utah-cs!thomas, thomas@utah-cs.ARPA)
        <<< "Humor is the poetry of ideas that do not match."
                - Leonard Feeney >>>

------------------------------

Date: Tue 12 Feb 85 09:56:17-PST
From: Bart <SEARS%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Book request

I am looking for the title and author of a book that I read about 12
years ago.  I think the title was something like "The ______ Mind"
where the blank may be "Expanded".  It was about a man who could
transfer his mind into animals.  He was an agent for some
organization.  While he was on a space ship he was practicing puting
his mind in a dog and there was one scene where he was looking at
himself through the dog's eyes.  When he was caught, he put himself
in the mind of a bird and tapped S O S on someone's window to get
help.  Also, once when he was about to be tortured he transfered his
mind into a swarm of bees (there was nothing else near by).  Any
help with locating this book would be appreciated.

                                Bart
                                Sears%hp-labs@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 01:17:25 PST
Subject: Movie Loose Ends - Anyone for a sequel?

        I've often wondered about films that bring forth interesting
ideas but then never carry them forth, either due to
short-sightedness or the acts of the editing floor.  So, what ideas
have you wished were picked up and continued with, at least a little
farther.
        My nomination: The monkey-human interface in 'Brainstorm'.
This event is even more relevent because they never even explain why
the concept was dropped.

--Victor O'Rear         {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro
                        bang!crash!victoro@nosc
                        sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: BANZAI INSTITUTE MESSAGE (re-sent)
Date: 10 Feb 85 21:36:21 GMT

It was wonderful ... I went to the opening of Buckaroo Banzai at the
Nuart in West Los Angeles last Friday, and you would have loved it.
It was a midnight showing, and was on the big day of our recent 2.5"
rainfall here.  We were all standing out in the pouring rain, some
with umbrellas, waiting happily.  Really bizarre.  Unfortunately I
got there too late for the freebie Team Banzai head-bands that were
passed out earlier.

It was bizarre.  When they let everybody in (10 minutes after the
movie was supposed to start) it was like a big party.  I saw two
guys in Perfect Tommy costumes, one dressed as Reno Nevada, three
with a red cowboy shirt with detachable front like New Jersey's, and
one guy with a silver coat JUST LIKE John Parker's (the black
Lectroid who looked like a Rastafarian).  They delayed the start of
the movie for another 1/2 hour (about), giving everybody a chance to
see all the other weird drenched people around them ...  we were all
standing by our seats looking around.

During the movie, people were generally good about letting people
hear it.  However, during favorite lines a number of people would
chime in: "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey Boy." was done in excellent
unison, while "It's not my god-damned planet.  Understand, Monkey
Boy?" was almost universally botched by people who forgot the
"Understand".  However, the audience was universally unified for
Lord John Whorfin's marvelous harangue, and responded correctly in
the litany:
        Where are we going?    Planet 10!
        When?                  Real soon!

You had to be there...

        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 12 February 1985, 09:14-PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman at SWW-WHITE>
Subject: The Rocky Horror Show.

>From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>
>As a possible explanation of the lack of success of the stage play
>on Broadway, have you ever seen (or heard) the music for the
>original?  They improved it quite a bit for the Movie.

The play may not have been successful on Broadway, but it was
another story in London.  I saw it there in August of 1980, just
before it finally closed down after an eight year run.  (Jesus
Christ Superstar, which opened in London a few months before Rocky
Horror, closed around the same time.)  Personally, I thought the
play was a good deal funnier and more effective than the film.  I
also preferred the music in the play, although I would have given a
lot to have seen Tim Curry as Frank.

------------------------------

From: digi-g!brian@topaz (Brian Westley)
Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible)
Date: 6 Feb 85 15:01:05 GMT

Now, wait a minute...Rocky Horror was a 'cult' film looooong before
'Fame' came along.  It was also a hit play (in England, at least;
won the 1973 critics award for best play).  Since 10 people will
also post something in reply, I will make mine short.

BTW, what's for dinner?

Merlyn Leroy
"Quote funny nose"

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 01:24:02-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Rocky (Horrible)

> From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>
> As a possible explanation of the lack of success of the stage play
> on Broadway, have you ever seen (or heard) the music for the
> original?  They improved it quite a bit for the Movie.

Well, yes and no (re: have I heard the original). I haven't heard
the London stage version, but I *have* heard (and own) a copy of the
LA cast album. I, and everyone I know who's heard it, thinks it's
far superior, music-wise, to the film soundtrack (and it was done
*before* the film).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: tellab2!thoth@topaz (Marcus Hall)
Subject: Re: QUARK
Date: 11 Feb 85 17:45:41 GMT

>    there were dozens of subtle little lines and props which were
>simply stolen right out of the Trek set when no one was watching.

Yes, in one episode, Quark had to destroy the Lymbacon which was a
Gorgon device that turned the planet Polumbus into a paradise (this
wasn't known to the outside world, however) and all the great
scientists that went to investigate it never returned (they were
having too much fun).

On the planet, Quark was asking one scientist directions to the
Lymbacon, to which the scientist replied something like just down
there and to the left, just past the Rodenberry bush.

Quark met his childhood sweetheart, Dianne, but eventually overcomes
the temptation and destroys the Lymbacon, and thus paradise.  The
last line of the episode is Quark saying "Goodbye Dianne, Goodbye
Polumbus."  This is a slightly modified version of the last line of
Goodbye Columbus, one of Benjamin's first films, I believe.

Oh Well, I guess I'll have to dig out my tapes and re-play the
episodes, I haven't seen them in quite some time.

marcus hall
..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth

Quark: "Ficus, thanks a million"
Ficus: "A million *what* commander?"

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: re: Commander Cody  and Flash Gordon
Date: 12 Feb 85 20:19:49 GMT

>From: @RUTGERS.ARPA:wesm@mitre-bedford
>
>        Hey, out there in netland, do anyof you remember the 50's
>TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I
>recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. There was also
>a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crab thing, that was a half
>hour weekly show that lasted a year or two. Anyone recall, or have
>any info on who starred, produced, etc. any of these?

I remember Commando Cody and his rocket powered flight jacket (a
brown leather jacket with a rocket pack attached to its back,
controlled by extending the arms above the head).  Cody also showed
up in theaters in serial format and once or twice on more recent TV
as a film put together from a sequence of the old TV shows.

I also remember Captain Zero and Captain Midnight and their
respective decoder rings and secret message kits.  The secret
message kit worked by writing on a thin strip of paper with a clear
wax crayon.  To read the message you pulled the strip through the
secret compartment of a ring containing a small ink pad.  Wish I
knew what became of mine -- probably worth a fortune by now.

Capt.  Midnight had a couple of sidekicks, one of whom was his
resident scientist of the egghead-stereotype school.  This guy
actually did bring up some interesting concepts, though not always
accurately presented.  I remember one time he was playing with a 1"
ball of neutronium on his workbench that Midnight said "... must
weigh a hundred pounds!".  A little off on the details, but the
concept was there.

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: Mon 11 Feb 85 11:18:41-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #50

As I recall from grade school (it made a great impact on me to learn
he was dead), Albert Einstein died 8 April, 1955, so any such time
capsule would have been opened in 1980, and we'd have heard about it
by now--expecially as 1979 was his centenary celebration....

                                        Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 10 Feb 85 21:21:28 GMT

I disagree with the suggestion that one should join, get the
freebies and get out.  My copy of "Limits" arrived before Crown
Books got it, and "Moreta" was only shortly after.  Both were well
before the paperbacks, which is really what you should be comparing
with.  For $6-8 or so, you get a nice durable copy.  For some books
this is important - I've gone through 3 or 4 copies of "The Moon is
a Harsh Mistress", and 3 of the Tolkien series in paperback.  If you
do much re-reading, hardback is a boon.  Of course, I've ordered
some sight-unseen that have gotten to the next library book sale,
but because of the (typically non-spoiler) blurb in the circular
SFBC sends, I have a better chance of getting a re-readable book
than wandering in and plucking SF paperbacks from an author I don't
know.

So I say it's worth it ... pick the opinion you want!

        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: mot!al@topaz (Al Filipski)
Subject: Re: Space Burial
Date: 12 Feb 85 18:24:31 GMT

>Yes, you can be buried in space!  Just have someone send your
>cremated remains ("cremains," as they were called in the news story
>on NPR this morning) to SSI (not to be confused with the
>Princeton-based Space Studies Institute, also called SSI), and they
>will further reduce them to fit into a capsule approximately 1" by
>1-1/4" which will be inscribed with your name, social security
>number, and (optional) religious symbol of your choice.  Then a
>capsule containing several thousand of these will be placed into
>low earth orbit (through the Van Allen Belt, which has very little
>satellite traffic).

Compact little shapes? (like what the Kelvans did to the crew of the
Enterprise) Low Earth orbit? What a drag. I think I'll wait until
they can give my carcass enough energy to leave the solar system. I
can't decide whether I'd like to have my arms outstretched like
Superman or maybe even go feet first. Imparting a stately slow roll
to the body might be dignified but I'd be mad if they set that
sucker tumbling arsey-varsey. Real comforting, thinking about
gliding along that infinite mean free path until you sublimate.
Better than a pyramid.

Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A
{seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Feb 85 1014-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #56
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:

     Books - King & O'Donnell & Secret Societies & The Tunnel,
     Films - Battle Beyond the Stars (2 msgs) & Mad Max &
             Star Trek IV (2 msgs),
     Miscellaneous - Pseudo-science

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: THINNER, by who?
Date: 12 Feb 85 14:50:54 GMT

The quoted message only appeared in net.books, but I'm cross-posting
to net.sf-lovers because this subject came up there a couple of
months ago.

> From: cbscc!rsu       (Rick Urban)
> I have heard that on the January 29th editin of "Entertainment
> Tonight", the hosts put forth the rumor that the novel, "Thinner",
> attributed to a man named Richard Bachman, was in reality written
> by Stephen King. Although a photo of the gentleman appears on the
> inside of the dust jacket, and the book is dedicated to his wife
> (Claudia Inez Bachman?), the only info about this person is under
> the photo: "Richard Bachman lives and works in New Hampshire".
> Could the rumor be true? Anyone out there who could shed some
> light on this issue?

Well, a few days ago, I was going to post a message that presented
my reasoned opinion on why I didn't believe that "Richard Bachman"
was Stephen King. That rumor has been floating around for a few
years, but after a hiatus in which it wasn't brought up at all, it
resurfaced with a vengeance last fall. Anyways, all that is
inoperative now, as it was revealed yesterday (Monday, 11 February)
in the papers (The Boston Globe anyway) and on ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT
that King has admitted that he did indeed write the five Richard
Bachman novels that have been published so far. All the rumors have
conflicted (and none of them were convincing to me) as to why King
hid under this pseudonym, especially since he has been denying it
ever since the rumor first appeared. Well, the reason given in the
papers was that he didn't want there to be a "glut" of Stephen King
novels on the market. I will still stick by my guns, though, and say
that there are *lots* of passages in THINNER that do not read at all
like King. He must have been consciously attempting to disguise his
style. Oh, well, once again, I'm wrong (I've been wrong much too
much lately; it's getting to be a bad habit...)

        So whose picture is that on the THINNER dustjacket? Well,
ah, you see, it's a photo of, er, Richard Bachman. Apparently,
Bachman *is* a real person, a lawyer from Minnesota, presumably an
old friend of King's agent, Kirby McCauley (who comes from
Minnesota). King has, I would assume con permisso, been borrowing
Bachman's name and, recently, his likeness. I guess King finally had
to fess up when the s**t hit the fan after ET annouced the rumor a
couple of weeks ago.

        As for the Bachman novels, there are five altogether:
ROADWORK, RAGE, THE LONG WALK, THE RUNNING MAN, and THINNER. The
last is horror (and better than half the novels King has published
under his own name), the middle two are dystopian science fiction,
and the first two are supposed to be non-horror-fantasy thrillers (I
don't have either of them, so I don't really know --- I hadn't even
*heard* of ROADWORK until very recently).
        THINNER is, of course, in print in hardcover, and THE LONG
WALK recently (in the past year or so) had a new printing. The other
three are out-of-print. And, of course, since this news broke out,
there is a run on these titles at the local bookstores (a friend and
I stopped at a local bookstore last night looking for some
magazines, and when I, as a joke, mentioned to him that we should
see if they had any Bachman books, the cashier looked at us as if
she was about to cry). If you want to read them, fear not, I'm sure
that within a few months, they'll all be in print again with:

                        STEPHEN KING
                         writing as
                      Richard Bachman!

emblazoned on the covers. If you want first editions for your
collection, Good Luck. See you at the used book stores! In case
you're wondering, the reason I have THE LONG WALK and THE RUNNING
MAN is because I picked them up when they first came out because
they were somewhat-obscure sf novels.  Sometimes, being a completist
is a blessing.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 85 21:57:25 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Kevin O'Donnell

     Kevin O'Donnell has written two other books, that have been
around for at least 3 years; I dont know if they predate the ones
that have been mentioned here already.

     One is Bandersnatch, about a post-economic disaster (I think)
world, and a street-gang-leader within it named Bander Snatch (that
is NOT Mr. Snatch). I thought it was a fantastic book on the first
reading, but it didnt strike me as well on the second; I have no
Idea why.

     The other book is War of Omission, and made me terribly
depressed.  It is a variant on the standard Marvelous New effect
that gets Turned Into A Weapon that No One Knows How To Handle. Im
not sure how the basic premise will sit with most people, but it
works well if you accept it. I have not read this one a second time;
I dont like getting depressed.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!lazarus@topaz (Daniel G. Winkowski)
Subject: Re: misc. topics old and new
Date: 12 Feb 85 17:49:59 GMT

> I particularly enjoy SF books involving a group of either humans
> or aliens who have been observing and manipulating humanity
> throughout history.  (As a matter of fact, I am in the process of
> writing one right now.)  These usually take the form of someone
> stumbling across a secret society of mentally, physically, or
> technologically advanced humans, or perhaps being recruited by
> them.  I am *not* interested in books which aren't written as
> fiction (unless they are *exceptionally* interesting); many of the
> "Lost Continent" or "UFO" type books try to pass themselves off as
> works of non-fiction to be taken seriously.  Any pointers to such
> SF (!) books would be appreciated (Warning: if you use your real
> name, watch out for strangers in black limousines for the next few
> months!).

I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'sercret society'
genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got through
1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! I believe
the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though my mind is
rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I never wanted
to hear about them again. They were real good, so good I did not
dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders!

Today we live in the future,
Tomorrow we'll live for the moment,
But, pray we never live in the past.

Daniel G. Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2879)
UUCP:   ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 01:18:14-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: THE TUNNEL

> From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
> If /The Tunnel/ was made in 1935, it has no relation to Harry
> Harrison's /A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah/, (aka /Tunnel thru the
> Depths/ or something like that), since that was written much
> later.  I have the original magazine version and while I don't
> remember the exact year, it was in /Analog/ (not /Astonishing/),
> so its some time since the name change.  At a guess, maybe the
> early seventies?

Good guess. "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" appeared in ANALOG,
April through June, 1972. It was published later that year by Putnam
(and in paperback by Berkley) as TUNNEL THROUGH THE DEEPS.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Feb 1985  03:54 EST
From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #53

        re battle beyond the stars.  i guess that i might just be in
a minority i found bbts to be hilarious. robert vaughn looking for a
dinner and a place to sleep.  jon-boy telling them to put the dinner
in the grave 'cuase he earned it' with a straight face no less.
george peppard as the easterner cowboy (there really are people like
that mainly from brooklyn and the bronx).

        i'll admit that it dragged but the unintentional humor was
superb.
                      shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 07:52-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Battle Beyond the Stars

        Actually, the character with the big breasts wasn't the
space ship, it was the female in the very fast scout ship that
buzzed around like a mosquito and had delusions of being hot stuff.
I forget her name, but her people were called the Valkuries (how
original). If you only saw this flick on the tube, you would not
have gotten her full effect, since the networks edited out much of
her upper torso.
                                        wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 00:54:05-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Mad Max

     I must protest!  Mad Max and Mad Max II (a.k.a. The Road
Warrior) are quite good, at least three-star movies.  Road Warrior
is unusual as a sequel in that it is slightly BETTER than the
original.  These movies aren't for everybody, but comparing them to
stink-bombs such as Plan Nine From Outer Space is ridiculous.

------------------------------

From: rna!rfm@topaz
Subject: Re: Star Trek 4
Date: 20 Feb 85 00:17:00 GMT

>>Would anyone venture to guess what Star Trek IV will be about?

>Can it be anything but "The Search For Spock's Luggage"?

With the bucks Nimoy made on III, make it "The Search For Spock's
Tax Shelter."  Does anyone really think there will be a IV?  Last I
heard, Shatner wanted more than Paramont would pay him, and Nimoy
wanted whatever Shatner was getting. And then there's the tidbit
about how much the Captain liked getting directions from his First
Officer.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 00:49:03-PST
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV

Is there any truth to the rumor that it will be called "You Klingon
Sons, You Killed My Bastard"????

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 17:28 CDT
From: Patrick_Duff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
To: Physics@sri-unix.ARPA
Subject: Pseudo-science of flying saucers, time travel, etc.

   This message discusses pseudo-science (what would "pseudo-science
fiction" be like?  Or could Fantasy be considered "pseudo-SF"?)
related to various topics commonly found in science fiction and the
bonus questions at the end of college physics exams.  Consider
yourself warned.

   Suppose an average science fiction reader or an average physics
student were to find himself back in, say, the time of the
Renaissance (14th to 16th century).  He might try to communicate his
knowledge of relativity, jet planes, radio & television, the
structure of the universe, and other ideas from modern science &
technology to the scientists and engineers of that day.
Unfortunately, while many people have some knowledge of
relativitity's ramifications, they probably could not provide a
rigorous argument supporting them.  While they might know something
about how radio or a jet works, they probably could not construct a
working model or adequately explain the theory behind them.  In
other words, they would have something interesting to write about,
but would not be able to convince anyone that it was correct.
(Could you, to that audience?)

   On the other hand, suppose someone from a thousand years in our
future were to find himself in our time.  He might try to
communicate his knowledge of hyper-quantum translation (or
whatever), faster than light star drives, interstellar communication
techniques, the underlying nature of reality, and other ideas from
his time.  If he were just an average non-scientist, his limited
familiarity with these things might give him something interesting
to write about, but leave him unable to prove or demonstrate any of
it in a convincing way.

   When reading two recent books I had that kind of impression,
i.e., that there might be something to the author's ideas, but while
he came tantalizingly close to making sense at times, his supporting
arguments fell short of convincing me they were valid.  Let's just
say that they are the most *entertaining* pseudo-science I've come
across in the last few years.  Science fiction readers and writers
will enjoy them for the "plausible" discussions of flying saucer
drives, faster than light travel, time travel, hyperspace, higher
dimensions, etc..  At the very least, there are some good
pseudo-explanations to provide excuses for all those things that one
wants to have in SF stories.  Those interested in physics should
enjoy trying to figure out exactly where the problems lie in the
author's arguments, or trying to reconcile some of what he says with
the rest of physics.  Of course, those of you who are actually from
the future may not get much out of these books; perhaps you can come
up with some comments to clear up some of the more obscure points
for the rest of us.

   The first book described below mainly covers various
applications; the second one gets more into the underlying
"theories":

   \How to Build a Flying Saucer: And Other Proposals in Speculative
Engineering/ by T. B. Pawlicki (ISBN 0-13-402461-3, Prentice-Hall,
Inc., copyright 1981, $5.95 in softcover).  Table of Contents: (1)
Megalithic Engineering: How to Build Stonehenge and the Pyramids
with Bronze Age Technology; (2) This Crystal Planet: How to Create a
Worldwide Communications Network--Still Using Bronze Age Technology;
(3) Beyond Velikovsky: Einstein's Relativity Demonstrated, Mining
Energy from Empty Space, and the Green Hills of Mars; (4) How to
Build a Flying Saucer: After So Many Amateurs Have Failed; (5) The
Philosophers' Stone: How to Transmute the Elements by Engineering
the Geometry of Standing Waves; (6) Time Travel: How to Navigate the
Streams of Time Through Hyperspace; Index.

   \How you can Explore Higher Dimensions of Space and Time: An
Introduction to the New Science of Hyperspace for Trekkies of all
Ages/ by T. B. Pawlicki (ISBN 0-13-444043-9, Prentice-Hall, Inc.,
copyright 1984, $6.95 in softcover).  Table of Contents:
Introduction; (1) The Dance of Life; (2) The Scientific Koan; (3)
What is Dimension?; (4) The Six Dimensions of the Universal
Hologram; (5) A Scale Model of the Universe; (6) The Fine Art of
Science; (7) Beyond Infinity: Where did Einstein go Wrong?; (8) The
Sonic Field: How to Generate Gravity with Sound; (9) Exploring the
Velocity Gradient; (10) Trinity; Epilogue: Journey to the End of the
Universe; Index.

   Bookstores don't seem to know how to catagorize these books; I
found the first one in the SF section and the other one with the
Religion books!

   regards, Patrick

   Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621***          pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay
   5049 Walker Dr. #91103                  214/480-1905 (work)
   The Colony, TX 75056-1120               214/370-5363 (home)
   (a suburb of Dallas, TX)

WARNING: Rebooting Universe will erase karma records.
   Abort? (Yes/No): no
Creating universe number H2947-8F46M-5GB75-01R03 in fractal series
.003952
Do you want to modify any constants? (Yes/No):  yes
Enter constant to modify or press RETURN to create a new constant:

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Feb 85 1003-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #57
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE PRISONER ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 85 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the TV show "The Prisoner".  People who have not yet seen this show
may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

From: warwick%tron.DEC@topaz (Trevor Warwick x4432)
Subject: Re: Prisoner
Date: 11 Feb 85 09:54:19 GMT

  Channel 4 here in England repeated all the 17 episodes of The
Prisoner last year. When it was finished, they also showed a 1 hour
special documentary about what it was all supposed to mean. This
featured interviews with McGoohan, and many of the production team.

  One of the interesting bits of information that came out of it was
that the Rovers were never actually meant to look like balloons.
Apparently, they had designed some amazingly complex and impressive
looking machine that was supposed to be the automatic sentry.
Unfortunately, on the day of the filming, it hadn't yet been
delivered, so McGoohan had the bright idea of using an old
meteorological ballon that they found on the set. The rest of the
crew thought that this was a ridiculous idea, but I think it worked.
Had they made Dark Star when The Prisoner was made... ?

trevor warwick

Engineering Division, Digital Equipment Corporation,
Reading, England.
{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-tron!warwick

------------------------------

From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 11 Feb 85 17:27:19 GMT

If you had read the books, (Which I did at about 13), you know that
the rovers were fluidic robots.  In the book 'The Prisoner' the
bouncing balls were color coded for specific function: ground based
guardian, flying guardian, amphibious guardian, and so forth.  The
white robots were the only ones that could kill.  (Which they did by
digesting the victim; leaving only metal parts behind.  Ugh!)  I
guess they decided to make them all white in the series.  Or am I
missing something, due to a black and white tv?

        Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
        {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

From: whuxl!map@topaz (PEARCE)
Subject: Re: Re: The Prisoner Returns (SPOILER)
Date: 12 Feb 85 20:03:30 GMT

> I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at
> least get him rescued.  Q: Any thought as to where the Village
> really is?  Not that many places can have the kind of climate they
> do (rarely rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc.
> Whaddya think?
>
> -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

The Prisoner series was filmed in a town called Portmerrion, on the
South Wales coast, UK. I have been there. The whole town consists of
an architects fantasy of a period Italian town. Some of the
buildings are just frontages, i.e. no complete buildings. They just
look good. Number TWO's front door actually opens onto a sheer rock
face.  I understand that *they* now run the town as an exclusive
hotel. And yes, number SIX's house does exist right where you see it
in the series.

                           ***SPOILER****

If I can recall, when I saw the original Prisoner series in England,
number SIX is number ONE. Confused? Well that's how the series ended
all those years ago.

P.S. What do you mean, that it rarely rains and is never cold
     in the village. I assume you don't know Wales in the winter.

   Mike "answer the British questions" Pearce   ..!ihnp4!whuxl!map

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 1985 14:58:10 PST
Subject: The Village
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>
To: malis@BBNCCS.ARPA

I was actually at The Village, it is in fact at Portmeirion, in
northern Wales, near Penrhyndeudraeth.  I stayed there overnight (in
Number 5).

(They kept asking me why I resigned for some strange reason, I told
them: "But I didn't resign."  They said " Sorry, must be a mistake,
you can go.).

But seriously, it is a really neat place to visit.  It is actually a
hotel or resort, and is quite small.  There are a number of small
cottages, and a small main hotel, but the hotel suffered fire damage
a few years ago, so although the outside looks OK, there is nothing
yet on the inside.  (The hotel was the old folks home in the
Prisoner, right in front is the stone boat).

If you want to visit, I strongly suggest staying at the village
itself, its real cheap.  The first night I was there, I stayed at a
bed and breakfast in Penrhyndeudraeth, which turns out to be a few
miles away, and transportation isn't all that great.  I got there by
train, which is a really neat way to go since you can see the
village as you approach from the other side of the bay, and there
are a lot of interesting things to see on the way there.  Also, if
you go by train, do not stop at Penrhyndeudraeth, but a few stops
before it, and see if the people at the hotel will pick you up (from
the map, this is not obvious).

At any rate, if anyone is interested, here is their address and
phone:
        Portmeirion
        Penrhyndeudraeth
        Gwynedd LL-48 6ER
        Telephone:  0766-770228/770335

Be warned that the village will look A LOT smaller than you expect,
its sort of like a Hollywood set.  For example, Number 2's dome is
only about 15 or so feet across.  During most of the year, there is
a guy named Max which runs a Prisoner souvenir shop in Number 6's
residence.  (He actually drives around in one of those Taxi/golf
cart type vehicles like in the show).

                Be Seeing You,
                Alan (Number 5)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 85 22:04:56 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: The Prisoner

     A number of years ago Thomas Disch wrote a book called The
Prisoner, which I believe is based on the series. It was quite good.
A friend of mine who is heavily into the show loved the book, which
is the best recommendation I can think of it. I liked it too, but
have only seen a couple of shows and don't remember them well; my
friend has seen all of them and has an eidetic memory. I consider
her opinion in this matter a bit more noteworthy.

Any other comments? has anyone else seen this book? why has no one
else mentioned it?

have fun
/amqueue

By the way, which one's Pink?

------------------------------

Subject: The Prisoner
Date: 12 Feb 85 20:56:29 PST (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Marvelous series.  I hope it comes around this way again.  But
WITHOUT the psychiatrist who, the last time it was run, supplied
comments after every show.  Yes, I know it's hard to believe
anything so ruinous, but that's what they did.  Hanging would have
been far too good.  (BTW, this in the LA/Orange County area of
California.)

I never really thought that, beyond Number 1 and Number 2, there was
any real hierarchy in the numbering system.  For one thing, *nobody*
would have been at the same level as anybody else.  Odd hierarchy.
But how did he get to be Number 6, when there were people with
numbers in the hundreds (and who were *they*?  Spies?  Warders?
Innocent people?)?  One wonders whether the Village had already been
there, or whether it was specially set up to try to break him.  Big
project for one man, but then he was an important agent.  But if it
had already been there for a time, surely that number would already
have been taken.  Or did it happen to be vacant at the time?

As to that umbrella thing that the Number 2's carry, it could
(knowing the Village) be just about anything (a personal escape
rocket, perhaps?)  but it *could* just be an umbrella.  As I recall,
lots of the Villagers, especially the women, wore rain capes from
time to time.  If the Village is in Britain, they'd need them.

I agree that the Village was *probably* run by British Intelligence,
but it's almost as hard for us to tell as it is for Number 6.  That,
of course, is the fundamental conflict of the series: he doesn't
know whether the warders are British, or enemies trying to break
him; they don't know whether he's loyal to Britain, or selling out
to enemies.  And we really get no more clues than he does.  It keeps
the suspense up constantly.

Begging your pardon, I believe that quote is:
"I am not a number, I am a free man!"  to which the only reply he
gets is Number 2's long, loud laughter, seeming to come from a
moonlit, grey sky.

Excellent series, one of the finest I've ever seen.  I do hope it
comes back.
                                Alastair Milne

"Je ne suis pas une numero!  Je suis un homme LIBRE!"
   -- from the French translation shown on channel 79 in Toronto.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 85 10:20:52 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #49
From: Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

>> The location of the Village? That I can tell you.  It's on the
>>Baltic Sea on the coast of Lithuania. I don't believe that that
>>means that it is a Communist institution, though.  I am convinced
>>that British intelligence runs it.

Spoiler warning.

But as I remember, the whole thing was a hoax, since (wasn't this in
the Chimes of Big Ben?) he really didn't escape the Village at all.
Any answers regarding the Village/Prisoner/etc. would be "telling".

End spoiler warning.

Note: Look for #6's STREET address in his walk up in London. You
could easily guess the answer.

Daniel Conde #(sqrt(-1))
conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 85 19:46:55 EST
From: Kevin.Dowling@CMU-RI-ROVER
Subject: Prisoner episode guide

I thought I'd add this outline style episode guide.  It does NOT
list synopsis' of the episodes though!  I remember seeing the series
for the first time and am very glad no one told me what was going to
happen...

Starlog #11 does have an episode guide to the show and a skimpy
article on the series. Many fanzines also had episode guides. The
Ontario Educational 'Prisoner Primer' was one of the better ones.

Travel & Leisure Magazine In 1980 May or June I believe had an
article on Portmerion in Wales. Many public libraries should have
this.

                                The Prisoner

                           Episode Guide 1967-68

An ITC production by Everyman Films Ltd.

Executive Producer: Patrick McGoohan
Script Editor: George Markstein

Made on location in the grounds of the Hotel Portmerion,
Penrhyndeudraeth, North Wales by courtesy of Sir Clough
Williams-Ellis and at MGM Studios, Borehamwood, England 1966/67

Director of Photography: Brenden J. Stafford BSC
Art Director: Jack Shampan
Theme by Ron Grainer
Casting Director: Rose Tobias
Produced by David Tomblin


10/1/67
        Arrival
                Director: Don Chaffey
                Writer:   George Markstein/ David Tomblin
                Guy Doleman as No. 2
                George Baker as the new No. 2
                Angelo Muscat as The Butler.

10/8/67
        The Chimes of Big Ben
                Director: Don Chaffey
                Writer: Vincent Tilsley
                Leo McKern as No. 2
                Nadia Gray as Nadia
                Finlay Currie as The General

10/15/67
        A, B, and C
                Director: Pat Jackson
                Writer: Anthony Skene
                Colin Gordon as No. 2
                Katherine Kath as Engadine
                Sheila Allen as No. 14

10/22/67
        Free For All
                Director: Patrick McGoohan
                Writer: Patrick McGoohan
                Eric Portman as No. 2
                Rachel Herbert as No. 58
                Angelo Muscat as The Butler

10/29/67
        The Schizoid Man
                Director: Pat Jackson
                Writer: Terence Feely
                Anton Rogers as No. 2
                Jane Merrow as Alison
                Earl Cameron as The Supervisor

11/5/67
        The General
                Director: Peter Graham Scott
                Writer: Lewis Greifer
                Colin Gordon as No. 2
                John Castle as No. 12
                Peter Howell as The Professor

11/12/67
        Many Happy Returns
                Director: Joseph Serf
                Writer: Anthony Skene
                Donald Sinden as The Colonel
                Patrick Cargill as Thorpe
                Georgina Cookson as Mrs. Butterworth

11/19/67
        Dance of the Dead
                Director: Don Chaffey
                Writer: Anthony Skene
                Mary Morris as No. 2
                Duncan MacRae as The Doctor
                Norma West as Girl Bo-Peep

11/26/67
        Checkmate
                Director: Don Chaffey
                Writer: Gerald Kelsey
                Peter Wyngard as No. 2
                Ronald Radd as Rook
                Patricia Jessel as 1st Psychiatrist

12/3/67
        Hammer Into Anvil
                Director: Pat Jackson
                Writer: Roger Woddis
                Patrick Cargill as No. 2
                Basil Hoskins as No. 14
                Victor Maddern as Band Master

12/10/67
        It's Your Funeral
                Director: Robert Asher
                Writer: Michael Cramoy
                Derren Nesbit as No. 2
                Mark Eden as No. 100
                Annette Andre as Watchmaker's Daughter

12/17/67
        A Change of Mind
                Director: Joseph Serf
                Writer: Roger Parkes
                John Sharpe as No. 2
                Angela Brown as No. 86
                Angelo Muscat as The Butler

1/7/68
        Do Not Forsake Me O My Darling
                Director: Pat Jackson
                Writer: Vincent Tilsley
                Clifford Evans as No. 2
                Nigel Stock as The Colonel
                Zena Walker as Janet

1/14/68
        Living in Harmony
                Director: David Tomblin
                Writer: David Tomblin
                David Bauer as The Judge
                Alexis Kanner as The Kid
                Valerie French as Kathy

1/21/68
        The Girl Who Was Death
                Director: David Tomblin
                Writer: Terence Feely
                Kenneth Griffith as Schnipps
                Justin Lord as Sonia
                Harold Berens as Boxing MC

1/28/68
        Once Upon A Time
                Director: Patrick McGoohan
                Writer: Patrick McGoohan
                Leo McKern as No. 2
                Angelo Muscat as The Butler
                Peter Swanwick as The Supervisor

        Although this episode was screened as the 16th episode it
was the 13th (last of the 1st season) to be filmed. An 8 month
production gap took place between these last two episodes.

2/4/68
        Fall Out
                Director: Patrick McGoohan
                Writer: Patrick McGoohan
                Leo McKern and Alexis Kanner
                Kenneth Griffith as The President
                Angelo Muscat as The Butler
                Peter Swanwick as The Supervisor

                                        nivek
Arpanet:  nivek@cmu-ri-rover
Bell:     (412) 578-8830
USmail:   Robotics Institute CMU
          Schenley Park
          Pgh, PA 15213

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Feb 85 1252-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #58
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 15 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anderson & Wilson (2 msgs) & A Request &
                  An Answer & The Tunnel & Manipulation Stories &
                  Group Minds (3 msgs),
          Films - Worst SF Movie (3 msgs) & Best Movie &
                  Battle Beyond the Stars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: akgua!edb@topaz (E.D. Brooks [Emily])
Subject: A Short Story Re-Discovered (Finally!)
Date: 12 Feb 85 18:42:14 GMT

Many moons ago I requested help from this newsgroup in
re-discovering the title, author, and anthology of a short story I
had read when much younger (approx. 15 years ago).  Imagine my
disappointment when I received exactly ZERO replies!  No one
remembered my story!  (So much for advance thanks!)

But, I have found it!  It has been re-released in a *new* collection
of short stories by Poul Anderson (I might have known he was the
author) entitled "Dialogue with Darkness".

The particular story I was looking for is titled "Sister Planet" and
still retains the haunting anguish I remembered so well.  This
collection credits "Satellite", May, 1959 which is apparently a
magazine.  I did NOT first read this in any magazine (certainly not
in 1959! I hadn't learned to read then) and will probably never know
what anthology I saw it in.

The collection "Dialogue with Darkness" is excellent.  I recommend
it to you all.  These are older stories, but only a few (like
"Sister Planet") have obvious discrepancies due to discoveries made
since their original publication.

And, no, I will not include any spoilers at all.  Read and enjoy!

Emily Brooks            {ihnp4!}akgua!edb

------------------------------

To: sunybcs!lazarus@topaz (Daniel G. Winkowski)
Subject: Re: misc. topics old and new
Date: 14 Feb 85 01:52:11 PST (Thu)
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-750a>

It's actually "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" by Robert Anton Wilson and
Robert Shea (not Sheckly).  Robert Anton Wilson also has written
"The Earth Will Shake: Volume One of the Historical Illuminatus
Chronicles", issued by Bluejay Books, Inc. (ISBN 0-312-94128-5),
which I picked up this evening at B. Dalton. A list of other books
by RAW mentions "The Illuminati Papers", "Masks of the Illuminati",
and "Cosmic Trigger: The Final Secret of the Illuminati".  Anybody
seen these? There's also mentioned as forthcoming "The Widow's Son:
Volume 2 of the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles".

-jns

"Avoid eye contact.  If there are no eyes, avoid all contact."
  --Firesign Theater

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 Feb 1985 09:51:56 EST
From: <SORCEROR@LL.ARPA>
Subject: ILLUMINATUS Trilogy

> I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'sercret society'
> genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got
> through 1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid!
> I believe the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though
> my mind is rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I
> never wanted to hear about them again. They were real good, so
> good I did not dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders!

The series you are thinking of is the "ILLUMINATUS" trilogy by
Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea.  Here, here !!  These books
employ a delightful non-linear narrative, which can make for
difficult reading. (The reader has to keep track of half a dozen
sub-plots and be prepared to switch between them without warning.)
This style serves to link a strong libertarian viewpoint with a
reverence for eros, randomness and surprises. (One doesn't have to
equate libertarianism with the controlling, rationalizing attitudes
of Objectivism and much of our scientific/technological culture.)  I
believe the authors conceived this series in reaction to the many
"crank-letters" about conspiracy theories they received while
working as editors at Playboy.  Highly recommended; enjoy !!

                 "All Hail Eris, All Hail Discordia, Blessed Be !!"

                                   Karl Heinemann
                                   (SORCEROR at LL)

------------------------------

From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth)
Subject: Here's another book that needs identification:
Date: 12 Feb 85 21:14:00 GMT

This book starts out about a professor whose wife has left him. He
gets depressed one night, and tries to commit suicide. He's saved by
his hat.  His wife is a nurse, I think.

Anyway, his sister comes to visit him (she's had a falling-out with
her boss), and ends up living with him for a while. Then she gets
kidnapped. The prof just about bankrupts himself trying to track her
down, and finally pinpoints her location. Then he gets caught by the
same guy who kidnapped her.

At this point, the story shift to another person. This guy
officially doesn't exist -- he doesn't have the equivalent of a SS
number. He's a burglar by profession (and a good one, too). Then he
breaks into this apartment, and discovers that the tenant (a woman
about 24-26) is trying to commit suicide.

[Note: This society has something very similar to the "tasp" from
Ringworld, except that anyone can buy one. They call it
"wire-heading" in this book]

The woman had plugged herself into the wire, and was starving
herself to death. The guy unplugs her, and saves her life (she
breaks his nose in the process). He performs a little rough
psychology on her, and gets her unaddicted to wire-heading. Then she
decides that she wants to "get back" at the companies that make the
wires. She wants him to help her, and he declines.  His reasoning is
that a man who doesn't officially exist would be worth a lot of
money to those companies. He could do dirty work for them, and no
one would every know. Or words to that effect.

To make a long story short, he discovers a good bit of his past, and
yes, he's the professor. Then he goes on a rampage to rescue his
sister. End of story.  I don't remember anything about how he did
(or didn't) succeed.

***** Any ideas? It's annoying to recall so much of the plot, but
not the title or author. Someone suggested "The Steel Rat" (or
something like that). I haven't read that, but it doesn't sound
familiar.
                                Thanx,
                                        Red

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification:
Date: 13 Feb 85 23:43:47 GMT

I don't know how much this helps, but the part about the burglar and
the woman sounds very much like a story that appeared in _OMNI_ a
few years back.  I know, it's a pretty thin lead, but you might be
able to check at a library, or maybe a subscriber to _OMNI_ could
help you.  (I let my subscription lapse, too many dumb articles on
pseudo-science.)

> . . . . . Then he breaks into this apartment, and discovers that
> the tenant (a woman about 24-26) is trying to commit suicide.
>
> The woman had plugged herself into the wire, and was starving
> herself to death. The guy unplugs her, and saves her life (she
> breaks his nose in the process).
                                      John L. Templer
                                University of Texas at Austin
    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: The Tunnel
Date: 14 Feb 85 00:26:51 GMT

Daniel P Faigin (ucla-cs!faigin) quotes me:
>>Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The
>>Transatlantic Tunnel.  ...

And asks:
> Does anyone know if this movie is related in any way, shape, or
> form to the Harry Harrison book,
>               "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!"

Yes, I do.  No, it isn't.

Harrison's book (which also has an alternate title, "Tunnel Through
the Deeps" ("Deep"?)) was written in about 1965 or 1970, and is set
about an alternate history where the US did not leave the British
Empire.

On the other hand, the movie in question is based on a 1913 book in
German by B. Kellermann and is set in the ordinary future.  (In the
movie, the Channel Tunnel had been opened in 1940, and the scene was
sometime later.)

For those who missed the original article: the movie is interesting
mainly as a curiosity; all prints were thought lost, so it's rare.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Feb 85 16:40 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: manipulation books

First to come to mind is, of course, the white mice in 'The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'.

Most of the Illuminati books of Robert Anton Wilson are either of
this type or a spoof on books of this type.  I can't remember any
titles offhand, but there is a trilogy.

The Lensman Series by E.E. "Doc" Smith is sort of under this
category.  I've only read the first couple books, though.

  Brett Slocum

ARPA:  Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 85 10:20:39 PST (Wednesday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Pointers please?

>I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds.

The Fire Lizards in Anne McCaffrey's Pern series had racial memory.
So did Paul Muad'dib Atreides ("Dune") and his children and his
sister Alia.  Keith Laumer's "The Infinite Cage" has a character who
can draw upon the memories of all of humanity somewhat
telepathically.

Group minds?  Heinlein had something in "Methusula's Children" (in
the collection "The Past Through Tomorrow") about The Little People.
Also the alien enemy bug thingies in "Starship Troopers".  And "I
Will Fear No Evil" had a group of minds in a single body.  "The
Puppet Masters" were kind of a group mind (this story was ripped-off
into a Star Trek episode where a blob of Jello-slime flies onto
Spock's back and tries to take over his body).  Varley had an
interesting version of a group mind in "The Persistence of Vision".
And Gaea ("Titan", "Wizard", "Demon") could fragment herself into a
group of minds.  Also, Varley's Symb-human pairs that lived in the
Rings of Saturn ("Equinoctial") experienced a very loose form of
group mind (mostly due to mating!).  The basic conflict in
Haldeman's "Forever War" hinged upon the incompatibilities of group
and discrete minds.  Julian May's Galactic Milieu ("The Saga of the
Pliocene Exile") had a sort of Galactic group mind called Unity.
Movies -- Nestor in "Battle Beyond the Stars" was a group mind
(hilarious scene of one Nestor eating a hot-dog and all of them
chewing).

And to all you people in net land: I remember a short story (by
Heinlein or Asimov?) that involved a starship manned by a
multi-racial crew coming to evacuate Earth before Sol goes nova.  A
few of the crew were part of a group mind.  This was important when
a landing party was trapped in a trans-Atlantic subway and cut off
from radio communications.  Anyone know the author/title?

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but it should keep
you busy for a while.

--Josh
Nestor: "That's okay, we always carry a spare."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Feb 85 16:40 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: racial memory / group minds

The Neanderthals in 'The Clan of the Cave Bear' shared racial memory
in their private male ceremonies. Also some advanced skills were
passed from one generation to the next sort of instinctually. For
instance, the Medicine Woman (can't remember her name) learned her
trade in this manner.  This book and the sequel 'The Valley of
Horses' are very good reading, and I recommend them highly.

For a group mind novel, 'More than Human' by Theodore Sturgeon is
one.  It's about a group of misfits that all possess some
extraordinary psychic talent.  These people develop into a sort of
Gestalt person.

That's all I can think of right now.

Brett Slocum

ARPA:  Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 14:49:15-PST
From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1576)
Subject: Group minds

Probably the best depiction of the group mind/racial memory idea is
Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End". (Highly recommended.)

Another novel that also considers the idea of the group mind is
Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human". (Also highly recommended.)

                                        Andrew Kenah
                                        DEC @ ZKO

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 13:47 EST
From: Jonathan Cohn <QU229C@GWUVM>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who vs. Star Trek & worst Sci-Fi movie.

My roomate comments:

On the matter of the worst SF movie: "Starcrossed is the worst all 
time Sci-fi movie. It gets my award for best pyrotechnic display doing
the least amount of damage."

Jonathan Cohn BITNET::JC595C@GWUVM or QU229C@GWUVM ATT::  (201)
676-2353

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 13:01:50-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: SF movies

Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG?
Come on now!!

Gaylene

------------------------------

From: ptsfa!kmo@topaz (Ken Olsen)
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 12 Feb 85 17:08:46 GMT

>From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
>
>My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
>this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
>character who has quite large breasts.
>
>Any comments??

There are two things I remember about this masterpiece.  One,
Richard Thomas was in it (what a superb follow-up to "The
Waltons"!); and two, Erin Moran dissolved into foam.  The latter was
the best part for me since Ms. Moran has always struck me as one who
should be dissolved.  (Remember her as 'Joanie' in "Happy Days" and
that ever-popular spin-off "Joanie Loves Chachi"?)

Enough of this sanity; on with the idiocy . . .

Ken Olsen
{ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!kmo

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 13:08:50-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: SF movies

In all this reminiscing, does anyone remember ZARDOZ or WIZARDS?
(two of my all time favorites) Does anyone know where or if I can
get them on tape? Also, I don't quite remember who wrote either one.
Didn't Sean Connery star in ZARDOZ? (I could of sworn it was his
gorgeous body I saw)

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 11:17:03-PST
From: Rich Alderson <A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #54

>[***SPOILER*** BTW: The female character with the large "breasts" is
>actually a spaceship -- "the last of the fighting Corsairs".  She
>steals a lot of the show, too.]
>
>The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)

Sorry.  The female character with the large breasts is the last of
the Valkyries, very much a woman (NOT a spaceship), and in network
TV release, not particularly visible: For scenes aboard her ship,
there is a rectangle burned out of each and every frame; for the one
scene where she is visible with others who have to be seen, the
focus was "re-adjusted" so as to make as if everything were viewed
through vibrating gelatin.

It is pretty good as mindless entertainment, but I wish the networks
would grow up and realize that censorship of even mindless fluff is
best done by cutting the entire movie, rather than some scene or
other.
                                Rich Alderson@{Score, Sierra}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Feb 85 1356-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #59
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 16 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:

       Books - Niven (4 msgs) & A Request Answered (2 msgs),
       Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Loose Ends & Worst SF Movie &
               Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nmtvax!student@topaz
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 11 Feb 85 17:27:06 GMT

mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob) writes:
>What? Bewulf Shaeffer - hero of "Neutron Star" (a.k.a "There is a
>Tide") ...  , and father of Louis Wu doesn't make the list?

Carlos Wu was the biological father of Louis Wu with Sharrol Janse
the mother. Bewulf was the foster father.

Sincerely;
Greg Hennessy
..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 85 08:54:46 PST (Wednesday)
From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Beowulf Shaeffer

What becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer?  Read the "Down in Flames" outline
stored somewhere on the SF-Lovers directory (ask Mister Moderator).

--Josh

[Moderator's Note:  The file is available only through FTP and the
ANONYMOUS login.  It is T:<SFL>DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT.]

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Niven' characters
Date: 13 Feb 85 09:09:33 GMT

> From: ucbtopaz!mwm
> What? Bewulf Shaeffer - hero of "Neutron Star" (a.k.a "There is a
> Tide") (which you mentioned)...

"Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. The
former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars Louis
Wu (which was why the original poster mentioned it). If you don't
believe me, you can look them up in NEUTRON STAR and TALES OF KNOWN
SPACE.
        BTW, I agree with you --- Bey is just as interesting, if not
more so, than Louis Wu or Gil Hamilton.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 February 1985, 07:56-PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman at SWW-WHITE>
Subject: Louis Wu

>> Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ...
> Well, not biological father.  But say, if Bey was the "father" of
> Louis (as I had always presumed), there is a passage that confuses
> me.  In the beginning of Ringworld they spend a great deal of time
> discussing the Long Shot, and its previous flight.  It seems
> strange to me that Louis didn't know it was his own father that
> had made that flight (I think his name is even mentioned
> somewhere, but I couldn't find it).

I believe that it's explained in "The Borderland of Sol".  Since
Shaeffer was legally prevented from having children on Earth, his
wife Sharrol had one with Carlos Wu.  There's a scene in
"Borderland" where Shaeffer and Wu Senior run into each other.  Wu
is embarrassed over the whole substitute father business, although
Shaeffer can't see what he's so upset about.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 09:36:12-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Aggression suppressor

Jerry Sweet's query, concerning the book with the new disease that
suppresses aggression (for a while...) is

        Edmund Cooper : Kronk

He has also written such good stories as Sea-Horse in the Sky The
Last Continent, and (my favourite) Prisoner of Fire.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 February 1985, 07:59-PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman at SWW-WHITE>
Subject: Yet Another "What's the title?"

>From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-750a>
> Read this many many years ago, but can't remember the author or
> title.  A truly demented SF novel.  Ranks right up there with Age
> of the Pussyfoot.  Here goes.
>
> A mad scientist invents a STD that eliminates aggression and
> warlike tendencies in humans. His two idealistic lab assistants
> happily spread it, targeting politicians in particular.  Humanity,
> it seems, has a rosy future.  However, not long after the start of
> a major undiscovered epidemic of this disease, packs of killer
> rabbits start roaming the English countryside, tearing up whoever
> they find.  Far from being rabid, it turns out, these rabbits have
> this new disease.  (I refuse to speculate on how they got it.)
> Yes, it seems that the mad scientist was really certifiable, and
> this disease of his merely represses aggression for a while, then
> brings it out all at once.  Humanity, it seems, has a very short,
> nasty future ahead of it.
>
> Anyone recognize it?

The title is "Kronk".  I read it a bunch of years ago in a British
edition.  Someone did a synopsis of this story here a few months
ago.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 05:34:38-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: BUCKAROO BANZAI at the NuArt

> From: randvax!jim@topaz (Jim Gillogly)
> It was bizarre.  When they let everybody in (10 minutes after the
> movie was supposed to start) it was like a big party.  I saw two
> guys in Perfect Tommy costumes, one dressed as Reno Nevada, three
> with a red cowboy shirt with detachable front like New Jersey's,
> and one guy with a silver coat JUST LIKE John Parker's (the black
> Lectroid who looked like a Rastafarian).
>
> During the movie, people were generally good about letting people
> hear it.  However, during favorite lines a number of people would
> chime in ... in excellent unison...

Oh, God, no! Buckaroo has fallen victim to the Rocky Horror
Syndrome!  Sigh. Well, at least I can pick this one up on
videocassette.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 05:28:07-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
Subject: re: Movie Loose Ends

> From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>       (Victor O'Rear)
>         I've often wondered about films that bring forth
> interesting ideas but then never carry them forth, either due to
> short-sightedness or the acts of the editing floor.  So, what
> ideas have you wished were picked up and continued with, at least
> a little farther.
>         My nomination: The monkey-human interface in 'Brainstorm'.
> This event is even more relevent because they never even explain
> why the concept was dropped.

What's to explain? It was meant only to be a throwaway --- a gag
pulled on the one guy by the other. There was no intent on
developing it as a concept; the story moved off in another direction
totally. Now, I agree that it's a fascinating idea that deserves a
full treatment of it's own, but it really had no relevance to the
story in BRAINSTORM, except very superficially.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 1985 12:41:07-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford

     I imagine you're all getting tired of this subject by now, but
I couldn't resist mentioning a few truly awful films that I don't
think anyone else has brought up:

"Attack of the Robots" --- in which the 'robots' are humans who have
     been hypnotized or drugged (or something) and then 'programmed'
     to assassinate various world officials. This one is worse than
     just awful; it's boring!

"Attack of the Giant Leeches" --- in which giant leeches kidnap some
     unfortunate suckers (sorry!) and take them to their dripping
     slimy underground hideaways where they (the leeches) can feed
     off them at their leisure.

"Laserblast" --- a amateurish production in which a boy finds an
     alien weapon which becomes affixed to his arm and turns him
     into a demented creature who lives only to blast '57 chevies!
     And we get to see most of them explode several times over!

"Moon Zero Two" --- I'm surprised no one mentioned this one, in
     light of the fact that it featured Catherine Schell (Maya from
     "Space: 1999"), about whom everyone one was wondering so
     recently.  I think that she was credited in the film as
     "Catherina Von Schell".  At any rate, this film was billed as
     the First Space Western; enough said.

     And now, I'd like to offer a new twist on this topic. What
follows is a list of bad movies that... I liked anyway! (I'll admit
to it; I'm not proud.)

"The Wizard of Mars" --- you guys didn't like this one? C'mon, now.
     Remember those funny pale water plants that tried to strangle
     the heroes when they dozed on their raft? And the pendulum that
     controlled time?... I've got to admit, when they restarted the
     pendulum, and time began to flow again, even I had to say "This
     is really dumb," but hey, that's beside the point. I think what
     really got to me was the eerie music when they're out in the
     desert, lost and thinking they're goners. Yeah, I was able to
     let go and get inside of that, and really feel the cold desert
     winds, and the sand in my space-boots. And then they saw the
     castle, far off on the mountain. God knows how or why, but it
     worked for me.

"Red Planet Mars" --- someone said they didn't like this one either.
     Yeah, so maybe it was a little hoky, maybe a little
     melodramatic.  Hmmm... or maybe a lot. But hey, that's ok! I
     thought Peter Graves made a rather likable Scientist/Hero (does
     anyone remember whether he wore glasses and took them off
     during dramatic moments?), and I remember liking his leading
     lady, too. And though some of you may have thought the bit with
     God was silly or stupid or hoky or whatever, I thought it was
     kind of refreshing to see an SF film that was willing to deal
     with the issue of God and his existence right up front, and was
     willing to do it without the cold and unrelenting rationalism
     that so often accompanies the 'science is supreme' attitude
     that is (let's face it) so often encountered in this genre. At
     least it wasn't cliche!

"Voyage to the Prehistoric Planet"
"Voyage to the Planet of Prehistoric Women" --- This little baby
     came from (I think) Czechoslovakia, and was originally seen
     here under the first listed title. In it, some guys go to Venus
     and end up wandering around the planet for a while (I don't
     remember exactly why). They travel over both land and sea,
     using this really nifty little hover-craft-like vehicle, which
     can also travel under water as well. There's a great scene
     where they're preparing to submerge the craft, and one of the
     guys pulls this big thing out of the floor which looks for all
     the world like a huge drain-plug! During their travels they get
     attacked by something resembling a pterosaur, and at another
     point discover the submerged remains of an ancient city.
         Now comes the good part! Some folks in the west got
     hold of this film and inserted some new footage they shot on
     their own. The film was then distributed under the second
     listed title. I've heard Peter Bogdanovich was connected with
     this in some way; any confirmations?  The new footage was
     largely divided into two groups of shots. The first group
     featured Basil Rathbone as a space station commander giving
     orders to our Venus-bound heroes. The second group featured
     some scantily clad women frolicking on a rocky beach; these
     were supposed to be Venusian natives. The costumes were
     ridiculous and great: clam-shell brassieres, long blond hair,
     etc. They apparently had psi-powers of some sort, or maybe just
     great hearing, because they somehow knew about the Earth-boys
     landing on THEIR planet, and weren't too thrilled about the
     invasion of their privacy, especially when the guys went
     strolling through THEIR submerged ancient city. So they call
     upon one of their gods to help them, and (surprise!) their god
     sends a pterosaur to attack the astronauts.
         It's great fun if you're lucky enough to see these two
     films within a few weeks of each other, so that your memory
     will allow comparison.

"Gog" --- Aw, come on, this one's not all that bad! It's full of
     those great 50's labs (you know, where metal is just ALL OVER
     the place), and it's got that subtle 50's-ish atmosphere of
     paranoid militarism.  Remember that one device that had a whole
     panel of tuning forks sticking out of it? Ridiculously great
     stuff! Or is that greatly ridiculous?

     So, do any of the rest of you have any films like those above,
that you know were pretty bad, but -- you can't help it -- you liked
them anyway?  It's the taste for junk food, I guess. Stephen King
talks about this in his book DANSE MACABRE, a book I highly
recommend to all who enjoy fantastic fiction of any sort, not just
to King fans or horror fans. He talks about how, because of
Sturgeon's Law, you've almost GOT to have a taste for junk food if
you're going to watch many fantastic films at all and enjoy them.
And of course the same applies to books. If you're going to be able
to watch film after film in THIS genre, or read book after book in
THAT genre, you MUST have a talent for zeroing in on the few good
points that even the worst efforts in the genre often have. How else
could you enjoy them?
     Now I may be stepping where giants fear to tread here, but it
occurs to me that "Dr. Who" fans should understand the above. Don't
get me wrong, who-fans! I thoroughly enjoy the Doctor, really I do!
But let's face it, those shows often contain a LOT of hokum! But we
love it anyway! The hokum is not the point; the shows transcend
that. Hmmm... This all applies to "Star Trek" to some extent, too.
(Boy, am I in for it now!) But I LOVE Trek, I really do! Honest!...
     But TV shows weren't the point of this letter. What I'm
interested in is: what bad or downright awful movies did you enjoy
anyway, in spite of how bad you KNOW they were? Be brave -- 'fess
up!
                                   ---  Jeff Rogers
                                        jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 85 09:40 PST
From: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek IV plot ??

How about this for a plot:

As hard-core Trek fans would never accept the concept of a James T.
Kirk never again being able to go toe-to-toe with three Klingon
battle cruisers simultaneously, the Klingon scout with cloaking
device has got to go. The Enterprise crewpeople simply need another
Federation starship, preferably one that looks like the Enterprise,
and even more preferably the *real* Enterprise. As to the small
problem of acquiring one ...

The Fed HQ will never give one to them. Savior of the Genesis
project or no, Kirk is not a good team player and will never get a
Federation command *as things stand now*. It becomes irrelevant that
the new Fed starships (like Captain Styles' in ST3) are ugly, and
Kirk wouldn't want one anyway. This means that Kirk must find one
from out of the salvage yards. F'rinstance, remember the abandoned
Constellation (?)  orbiting the planet of Yangs and Coms? I do not
remember its fate, and it might still be available. Or better yet,
how about the alternate universe Enterprise with the evil Kirk,
sneaky Spock, etc ... ?  Kirk's alter-ego didn't look long for the
multiverse at the end of that one, and whoever is riding around in
that ship now could doubtless be suckered into losing it. It
wouldn't be the most outrageous stunt Kirk has ever pulled. All he'd
need to do then would be to get 400 warm bodies to crew it and use
as token casualties whenever he found a new planet to beam down to.
Ad infinitum.

My vote for a title to ST4 is "Star Trek IV, the search for Star
Trek V".
                                                --- JohnnyT
"But I don't know that either!"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Feb 85 1059-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #60
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:

             Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Wilson (3 msgs),
             Films - Computers in Films & Battle Beyond the Stars &
                     Best SF Movie & Star Trek (3 msgs),
             Television - Old TV Shows (2 msgs) & Otherworld,
             Miscellaneous - SF Book Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Feb 1985  16:45 EST
From: Jim Aspnes <ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: jsc@UCB-VAX.ARPA (James Carrington)
Subject: Niven's Characters

>Remember, Beowulf was not permitted to have children by earth law
>(because he was an albino).  I guess he was never able to tell
>Louis...

Actually, Louis Wu's biological parents were Sharrol Jans, a Terran
computer programmer with a strong phobia against space travel, and
Carlos Wu, poet/mathematician/etc., who was granted an unlimited
birthright at the age of 18 and sired Louis as a personal favor to
Sharrol and Beowulf.  As to why Louis never heard of the Long Shot,
I would guess that Beowulf did a very good job of keeping his
contract with the puppeteers.
     Unfortunately, this doesn't explain very well why Louis Wu
never seemed to think about Dear Old Dad much, but he never was the
family sort.  Interesting note: Louis has a full sister.  Perhaps
the Wu/Shaeffer tales are even more unfinished than we think.

Jim (asp%mit-oz@mit-mc)

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu
Date: 14 Feb 85 20:01:18 GMT

> Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ...

What I mean is the following: Okay, Carlos fathered Bey and
Sharrol's son Louis.  Now, what bugs me is that when, in Ringworld,
Louis is told of the maiden voyage of the Long Shot, he is either
unaware or uncaring that his father was the pilot on that flight.
Obviously Louis had either no curiosity about his father's past
activities (unnatural for a son) or Bey never entertained his son
with such stories (unnatural for a father).  Or else so much time
has passed since Louis's childhood that he no longer remembers or
cares about his parentage.

Derek Zahn @ wisconsin
{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek
derek@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 1985  14:37 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: pduff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: misc. topics old and new

Well, I believe "Illuminatus" by Robert Anton Wilson is the biggie
of that type of story.  I actually haven't been able to read it
myself though, so I must admit that I'm basing my comment on
hearsay.

Another story that you might like is Talbot Mundy's "The Nine
Unknown", nor should we forget The Second Foundation.

------------------------------

From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack)
Date: 14 Feb 1985 1440-EST (Thursday)
Subject: Illuminati

>I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'sercret society'
>genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got through
>1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! I believe
>the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though my mind is
>rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I never wanted
>to hear about them again. They were real good, so good I did not
>dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders!

Robert Anton Wilson was one of the authors of Illuminati (only one
't').  I don't remember the other.  The series is amazingly good,
although the way it jumps around from one viewpoint to another is
confusing sometimes.

This is the book that explains the Kennedy assasination, the
disappearance of John Dillinger, pyramid power, the sinking of
Atlantis, evolution, ...  THEY have a finger in everybody's pie.
The question is "Who are they?"  It even involves Cthulu.

The Bavarian Illuminati IS mentioned in the dictionary, so some of
the story is factually based.  And, their symbol is the pyramid with
the eye in it.  Now, where have I seen that before?

                                -- Chris Warack
                                   war@dutch
"All Hail Discordia!"

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 85 15:36:49 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Fairy tales for paranoids
To: Sunybcs!lazarus@TOPAZ.ARPA
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>

There are a lot of books about the Illuminati and co.  There are
three series, + a mess of others:

Illuminatus! (Robert Anton Wilson & Robert Shea) 3 vols
        The Eye In The Pyramid
        The Golden Apple
        Leviathan

Schroedinger's Cat (Robert Anton Wilson) 3 vols
        The Trick Top Hat
        The Homing Pigeons
        The Universe Next Door

The Historical Illuminatus! (RAW) 1 vol, another soon, maybe more
        The Earth Shall Shake
        The Widow's Son (supposedly out soon)
        ??

Masks of the Illuminati!  [a good introduction to Illuminoids]
The Illuminati Papers
The Cosmic Trigger: The Final Secret of the Illuminati

The last two are more in the nonfiction line, as they tend to be
more philosophy and personal experience.

                                Chris
Everything you know is false.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 11:33 CST
From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Computers in Films (Microtrivia)

Microtrivia question: What First Generation computer played a bit
part in the Nolte/Murphy film "48 Hours"?

------------------------------

From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 12 Feb 85 19:40:27 GMT

>From: Doug Bryan <BRYAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
>My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
>this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
>character who has quite large breasts.

"Battle Beyond the Stars" was a remake of "The Magnificent Seven",
which was a remake of Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" (which,
incidentally, I nominate for a permanent position in the 5 best
films ever made).  ("Seven Samurai", for pete's sake, not any of the
others!)

The best part for me was Robert Vaughn playing the same role as he
had in TM7, even down to the black leather gloves.  \\I// though it
was very funny, though the director may not have intended it thus...

La musique est une science
qui veut qu`on rit et chante et dance.
        -- Guillaume de Machaut

Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900                           (kerch@lll-tis.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:13:08-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Best SF Film

     Alastair Milne recently nominated "2001: A Space Odyssey" for
best SF film. Though I too would put "2001" near the top of my list,
I also think it sort of went too far, tried too hard, in some ways.
I'll not elaborate, since this is hardly a new opinion.

     Instead, I'll offer my own candidate for all-time best SF film:

                "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

I think this film has it all: a mature plot and theme, fine
performances, not too much melodrama, and (last but not least)
plenty of theremin music in the soundtrack! (Just kidding there.)
But it's surely one of our all-time best movies, if not the single
greatest. Anyone agree?
                                  ---  Jeff Rogers
                                       jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 1985  14:48 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV

        Apparently Shatner is getting $2,000,000 to do the movie.  I
haven't heard anything about Nimoy, but George Takei is coming to
speak at MIT in a couple of weeks, so maybe something concrete will
be revealed.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 1985  14:51 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV

        Actually, the working title is "Jim Kirk Rides Again or Old
Starship Captains Never Die, They Just Make More Money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 Feb 85 16:08:25-EST
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: Penthouse Gene Roddenberry Interview

I just dug up a photocopy that was given to me in my high school
years by an older person of just the text and no surrounding
pictures from an interview of Gene Roddenberry by Penthouse
magazine.  It is about 7 to 10 years old, 5 pages worth, and no
date.  It is a very good interview with The Great Bird.  I was
wondering if anyone knew the issue date so I can properly register
the copy in my files.

Thanx,
Gern

------------------------------

From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman)
Subject: Re: Commander Cody, Flash Gordon
Date: 14 Feb 85 17:10:37 GMT

Commander Cody was a mid 50s NBC series starring Judd Holdren.  It
was based on two or three earlier movie serials about heroes using
rocket suits, including King of the Rocket Men, and Zombies of the
Stratosphere.  At least one of the series feature the Commander Cody
character and one starred an actor named George Wallace.  More
information on the serials is in a book called To Be Continued,
which includes information on all serials.  The serials were also
syndicated on Saturday morning TV.

There was also an early 50's TV series on the old Dumont network
called Flash Gordon which starred Steve Holland and was filmed in
West Germany.  Some information on these series appears in the book
Fantastic Television (1978).

          Hank Heyman, IMS, Rockville, MD

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Commander Cody  and Flash Gordon
Date: 14 Feb 85 23:50:21 GMT

>Hey, out there in netland, do anyof you remember the 50's TV
>show Commander Cody.  I don't remember much from it, but as
>I recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time.

Do I remember Commander Cody, Sky Marshall of the Universe???  I was
a little tyke in kindergarten and the week split neatly in two
parts.  There was the hour on Saturday morning when they showed
Commander Cody and Captain Midnight.  Then there was the dull part
of the week that lasted 167 hours!  Judd Holdren wore the Republic
serials rocket suit and fought the minions of The Ruler from the
planet Saturn.  I just loved to see the spaceships that took off
horizontally like planes and to watch Cody fly between them with his
rocket suit.  If you want to see the props again, watch for serials
on TV.  The suit is in KING OF THE ROCKET MEN, the suit and the
spaceships were in RARAR MEN FROM THE MOON and ZOMBIES OF THE
STRATOSPHERE.  The TV series was not so much ahead of its time as it
was the serials of a year or so earlier brought to the tv screen.

Captain Midnight, incidently, was a scientist who had a secret
super-scientific laboratory on top of a mountain.  He was played by
Richard Webb and his sidekick was Ichobod Mudd (Sid Melton, later of
the Danny Thomas Show).  His lab also had a scientist at his beck
and call, Tut -- short for Aristotle Jones, played by Olan Soule.
His personal jet was the Silver Dart ("Fire up the Silver Dart,
Ikky!").  He also had a secret army of kid helpers called the Secret
Squadron.  The code of the Secret Squadron was "Justice -- through
strength and courage."  In various episodes he dealt with a good
scientist turned into a monster called "the electrified man" whose
touch was deadly.  Also there was a guided missile that looked like
a cannister vacuum cleaner and rolled sinisterly along the ground
guided to its victim.  Both were pretty scary to my kindergartener
mind.  In syndication, the name was changed to Jet Jackson.

>There was also a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crabbe
>thing, that was a half hour weekly show that lasted a year
>or two.  Anyone recall, or have any info on who starred,
>produced, etc.  any of these?

I liked it, but not as much as the above two.  The series was
produced in Germany.  I remember Flash on Earth in a VW bug with a
sun roof and I thought a sun roof was a science fiction idea.  Flash
was played by Steve Holland, Dale Arden by Irene Champlin, and
Alexis Zarkov by Joe Nash.  I liked the space ship a lot.  This
series was shown in 1957, the previous two in 1955.

Portions of my memory on the above were aided by TOTAL TELEVISION by
Alex McNeil.

Now let me ask a really obscure one.  I remember around 1955 or 1956
watching a show with someone having a machine with a window that
could see the past (or future?) I think that they could also step
through the window.  I vaguely remember the show, but have never
seen a reference to it anywhere.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman)
Subject: V and Otherworld (TV)
Date: 14 Feb 85 17:10:37 GMT

The TV series V has gone downhill because it has no direction; no
one can win or the series would end.  Otherworld is starting to
remind me of The Fugitive.  A society so advanced to build androids
with full logic and emotions would surely encode a serial number
identification into the "access crystal."  This has become a device
to make life easy for the American family.

          Hank Heyman, IMS, Rockville, MD

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 1985 12:41:31-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford

     Someone asked about the SF Book Club a while back; having been
a member off and on now for something like eight years, I thought
I'd offer my opinions:

     I feel the club is definitely worth joining.

     You should understand that, in general, their hardbacks aren't
up to the quality of those you'd buy in a bookstore (pages aren't
well-trimmed, bindings and spines aren't quite as sturdy), but then,
neither are their prices. You can, generally, get a hardback from
the club for less than twice the price of a paperback edition of the
same book. And club hardbacks are definitely more durable than a
paperback!

     Selection can be quibbled with. They have lot of titles, but
there are many they don't have, too. I've often terminated my
membership after a few years because I felt they no longer had
anything I wanted. But they introduce new titles at the rate of 3 or
4 per month, so after another year or so, I was always ready to
rejoin.

     "The Integral Trees" is a good example of the timing of club
offerings.  It first became available from the club about 2-3 months
(I think) before it hit the shelves of bookstores in paperback form.
I believe this is typical; other club members, correct me if I'm
wrong.

     One great feature of the club is that they occasionally offer
special editions.  Some of these are simply omnibus editions, like
all the "Amber" books in a two-volume set, which do save you some
money. But some of the others are much more appealing. For instance,
through the club I've gotten hardback editions of "Barlowe's Guide
to Extraterrestrials" and "The Art of Rowena," both beautiful books
(if you're into SF illustration), and which I've never seen in
hardback elsewhere. The physical quality of these two editions was
much higher than usual for the club; they seemed the equals in every
way of editions you'd buy in a bookstore, except hardbound instead
of soft. If I recall correctly, the club prices of these hardbacks
were darn near the same as what the softbound editions would've cost
at a neighborhood Waldenbooks. And a year or two back they offered
an edition of "The Castle of the Otter," which was otherwise
available only through a small press, I believe.

     The only minuses to club membership that I can think of are: 1)
you have to remember to send in your response form every month or
else they automatically send you their two featured selections; 2)
their selection could be broader; and 3) a few of their dust jackets
are just plain ugly.

     Good luck!
                               ---  Jeff Rogers
                                    jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Feb 85 1129-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #61
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:

         Books - Aldiss & Anthony & Donaldson & Heinlein &
                 Niven (3 msgs) & Wilson (2 msgs),
         Films - Attack of the Killer Tomatoes &
                 Battle Beyond the Stars &
                 Starcrash & The Day of the Triffids (2 msgs) &
                 The Tunnel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Help ! Book Title and Author search.
Date: 15 Feb 85 21:50:37 GMT

> The story is told in the First person by one of the humanoids and
> i think it narrates his life , there is a question that is present
> throughout the story , something to do with where they come from
> or got to . There are battles with other tribes of similar
> humanoids the main target being food which is in short supply.

This is "Hothouse" by Brian Aldiss (aka "The Long Afternoon of
Earth").  This was recently re-released, so you can even get a new
copy in paperback.  A pretty good book of Earth's Far-Far-Far
future, but I still prefer Jack Vance's "The Dying Earth" or Gene
Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun".

/John

------------------------------

From: unc!walker@topaz (Douglas Walker)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 13 Feb 85 16:01:22 GMT

If you liked Xanth, try his 'Juxtaposition' series: Split Infinity,
The Red (Blue?) Adept, Juxtaposition.

He's also written some more 'serious' stuff - psychological drama,
etc.  in the Tarot series (3 books) and also somewhat in the Cluster
(4 or 5 books) series.  I've not read his Orn - Ox - Omnivore
series, but it LOOKS like (judging by the cover) more of the
Cluster-type stuff.

------------------------------

From: reed!schmidt@topaz (Alan Schmidt)
Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever
Date: 12 Feb 85 20:37:20 GMT

>> Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the
>> first three.
>>
>> Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense.
>> The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of
>> the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign).
>
> Such is your opinion.  I guess it's only to be expected; people
> can only judge from experience.  Most people who've never
> experienced being an outcast wouldn't be able to understand, much
> less judge clearly.
>
> I find Linden Avery (second Chronicles) hard to understand and
> harder to accept.  But I have never had *her* experiences, so I
> cannot judge.  Anyone out there willing to step forward?

Oh, all right, if you INSIST.

Linden, like Covenant, was selfISH, but thought she was selfLESS.
Her entire system of ethics was pulled out from beneath her when she
realized it was based on a faulty premise.

Everyone's been an outcast at one time or another.  You cope.  You
learn to live with it.  Covenant coped relatively well.  Covenant's
fault wasn't that he was an outcast, but that he couldn't relate
well to people.

I liked the first three.  The second chronicles were a little
tedious, though I liked Linden Avery.  Donaldson forgot that part of
the appeal of the first chronicles was that each book was complete
unto itself.  Also, as has been said before, though I'm not sure any
more whether it was this news group, Donaldson really didn't have
enough story material for three books the second time around.  I
think he wrote three because it's vogue to write in trilogies.

If he writes three more, I hope he follows more closely to the first
trilogy than the last.

Alan Schmidt
..tektronix!reed!schmidt

------------------------------

From: spock!gumby@topaz (Kevin Kaplan '86 cc)
Subject: Re: Heinlein
Date: 12 Feb 85 15:23:01 GMT

For all of you devoted fans of Robert A Heinlein, I recommend
strongly his latest book: J.O.B. - A COMEDY OF JUSTICE. It is a
parody of the story of Job in the bible. I think it is one of his
best yet.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 01:21:22-PST
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: Known Space

One of the first things I learn about this BBoard is that there is
an archive of some very interesting things maintained.  One of these
is a work entitled "Down In Flames", by Larry Niven.

I will not say what it is about, but for the minor point that it
occurs in Known Space.

This work is dated 1977.  I asked once before, with no reply, if
there had been any further work on this, or if it had really been
written finally.  Again, I ask.  I would be very interested in
reading such a story.

                                Andy Gideon
                                Gideon@SU-SCORE

"The perversity of the Universe is nothing compared to my girlfriend"

------------------------------

From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 13 Feb 85 23:42:50 GMT

>> > Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ...
>> Well, not biological father.

Correct, but...

>> [Query as to why Louis doesn't know about the first flight of the
>> Long Shot from his father.]
>Remember, Beowulf was not permitted to have children by earth law
>(because he was an albino). I guess he was never able to tell
>Louis...

Bey was on his way back to Earth to see his wife & son again, and
Carlos (Louis' biological father) had left Earth. I think Louis
would have known who his father was. Chalk it up to the stasis box
effect, and let it go at that. [Sorry, but I can't resist: "Will
Louis find out who his father is? Will Bey make it back to Earth?
Will Elephant get his wish? Who will mother Carlos' next child? For
the answer to these and other questions, tune in next week to 'As
Known Space Churns.'"]

>> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what
>> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer?  He is by far my favorite
>> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what
>> happens to him.
>You never know, niven may be planning more stories... I sure hope
>so...

Yes, but writing about how a character drops out of things doesn't
mean Niven has to quit writing stories about the character. After
all, all we know about the 200 years of Louis Wu's life before
'Ringworld' is 'There is a Tide' isn't it? So there's lots of Louis
Wu stories still to be written.

Contrary to what I said earlier, 'There is a Tide' is *not* the same
as 'Neutron Star'. Now, didn't 'Neutron Star' appear under another
title, and *what was it*?

        <mike

------------------------------

From: unc!ericksen@topaz (James P. Ericksen)
Subject: re: Niven' characters
Date: 14 Feb 85 17:53:56 GMT

>"Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. The
>former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars Louis
>Wu...
>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

Well, you're almost right.  It was Louis's father, Carlos Wu.

Jim Ericksen
Dept of Comp Sci
UNC Chapel Hill

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: Illuminati
Date: 14 Feb 85 23:25:39 GMT

>>I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'secret society'
>>genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got
>>through 1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid!
>>I believe the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though
>>my mind is rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I
>>never wanted to hear about them again. They were real good, so
>>good I did not dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders!
>
> Robert Anton Wilson was one of the authors of Illuminati (only one
> 't').  I don't remember the other.  The series is amazingly good,
> although the way it jumps around from one viewpoint to another is
> confusing sometimes.
>
> This is the book that explains the Kennedy assasination, the
> disappearance of John Dillinger, pyramid power, the sinking of
> Atlantis, evolution, ...  THEY have a finger in everybody's pie.
> The question is "Who are they?"  It even involves Cthulu.
>
> The Bavarian Illuminati IS mentioned in the dictionary, so some of
> the story is factually based.  And, their symbol is the pyramid
> with the eye in it.  Now, where have I seen that before?
>

There is an Illuminati game which involves all of the aforementioned
groups.  I think it is a spoof of the book.

Eli Liang
    University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
    ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep  CSNET: liang@cvl
    UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 19:54:59-GMT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Illuminatus
Cc: alan%dct@ucl-cs.arpa

>I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'secret society'
>genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got through
>1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! I believe
>the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though my mind is
>rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I never wanted
>to hear about them again. They were real good, so good I did not
>dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders!

 The original series did indeed form a trilogy, I'm not 100% certain
but I think they were
  The Golden Apple
  The Eye in the Pyramid
  Leviathan
maybe not in that order. They were written by Robert Anton Wilson
and Bob Shea. Wilson then went on on his own to write another
trilogy, Schroedinger's Cat which was based on the same (or similiar
characters as Illuminatus) but each book was set in a parallel
universe (I think!).  I can only remember the title of one of these,
The Trick Top Hat. He's since written several other books in the
same vein, the last I saw being Masks of The Illuminati which
manages to star Albert Einstein amonst others !

 The only way to describe these books is "WEIRD" and fear of
prosecution keeps me from going too much into the contents of some
of the books. If you'ld like to know about Rhoda Chief and ACE then
you'll have to read them.!

As an interesting point there really was a secret society called the
Illuminati which you should be able to find in any good
encyclopaedia, eg Britanica.  I'd better not reveal to much more
though as who kno

A
 r
  gh
     Keep away from me, I didnt mean to reveal everything.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 21:07:03-PST
From: k_moreau%grdian.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau  DTN 283-7627)
Subject: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes not a parody?  Ridiculous.

                 * * * *  SPOILER WARNING  * * * *

How can you even consider that Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is
intended to be a serious movie that just happens to be incredibly
bad?

Remember the entire briefing scene, in that tiny little room?

Remember the scene where the disguise expert sneaks into the
tomatoes camp, and gives himself away by asking them to "pass the
catsup"?

Remember the scene at the end of the movie, after most of the
tomatoes have been killed off by the music being played, the final
huge tomato is advancing on the female reporter?  It is wearing
ear-muffs, and is finally killed off by the hero holding up a piece
of sheet music.

If this isn't parody, I don't know what is.

                                                        Ken Moreau

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random)
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 13 Feb 85 13:26:16 GMT

herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong [DCS]) writes:
>
>i have watched this one several times.  the people i remember being
>in the show are Richard Thomas and Robert Vaughn.  the heavy is
>someone i recognise who normally plays such roles, but his name
>escapes me.

The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the
occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad). The
first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_ and a
third one that I can't remember the name of. They all deal with a
post-holocaust (sp?)  world where the only technical and peaceful
group left is called Pax. Not bad movies on the whole. A little
standard on the plots but worth a couple hours on saturday
afternoon.
                                Random
                                Research Triangle Institute
                                ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Bad movies
Date: 13 Feb 85 23:16:08 GMT

>As far as these pitiful attempts to find the world's worst SF movie
>of all time, one movie has been over looked.  I am not quite sure
>of the title, but here is a brief description.
>
>I saw it several years ago on Cable TV, it never even got to the
>theaters it was so bad.  It was on the tail wind of Star Wars and
>an obvious attempt to cash in on its selling potential.  It was
>about a young <er> hero, who had a link in with some Force-like
>magic who went around whining.  The hero was played by Marjoe
>Gortner, who many may not remember as a child evangalist.
>Christopher Plummer had a bit part as the Emperor (I don't know if
>he was evil or not) and seemed accutely embarrased throughout the
>thirty or forty seconds that he appeared on screen.  (He got top
>billing, if I remember correctly).

I'm pretty sure someone mentioned it, perhaps in net.movies.  You
are describing STARCRASH which starred Caroline Munro (as Stella
Star) along with Gortner and Plummer.  It was directed by Louis
Coates (Italian science fiction-fan Luigi Cozzi).  It won't win any
prizes, but it was well paced and better than literally hundreds of
science fiction films.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made
Date: 13 Feb 85 23:38:34 GMT

>There are at least three versions of Day of the Triffids
>that I have heard of.  Two are relatively recent - late 70's
>- and the other is much older.  I saw the original one, and
>I thought it stunk.  The acting was  terrible, the plot was
>abominable, and the 'special' effects were unmentionable.  I
>haven't seen the newer releases, but with that plot, there's
>only so far they can go.

The 1981 BBC adaptation shows up on the Arts and Entertainment cable
channel.  It follows the novel page for page.  It is intelligent and
well made.  Since the novel is not really about monsters but about
how societies function, it is well worth seeing.  A friend who is a
post-holocaust story enthusiast says that it is the best
post-holocaust dramatic presentation he has ever seen.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: snow!tjb@topaz (Timothy Bissell)
Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids
Date: 12 Feb 85 11:36:52 GMT

>How can you call Day of the Triffids a bad Sci-fi movie? I thought
>it was quite good and it is certainly far above the likes of Mars
>needs women, etc.  M. McCann

The reason why it is so bad is that it deviates from the book so
much.  The BBC produced a series based on the book which (as I
recall) followed it more closely, and was much, much better.

        Tim Bissell, University of Warwick, UK

------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 22:54:19-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Transatlantic Tunnel

From the archives:

        Curtis Bernhardt: Der Tunnel (1933)
        Maurice Elvey   : Transatlantic Tunnel (1934)

The Bernhardt film was released in both French and German versions,
shot separately but from the same script.  As far as I know, neither
survives.

The Elvey film is a clone, with a different shooting script and
different special effects.  My standard reference [ Baxter: SF in
the Cinema ] says it is much worse that the continental versions

Nothing to do with the Analog serial.  Note that Harrison - rather
less implausibly - had his heroes construct a buoyant tunnel OVER
the mid-atlantic fault, rather than have them bore through volcanos.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Feb 85 1221-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #62
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:

     Books - Anderson & Hodgell (2 msgs) & Robinson (4 msgs) &
             Stasheff & Story Request Answered & 
             Group Minds (3 msgs) & Story Request (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: Followup to a number of articles
Date: 14 Feb 85 02:26:15 GMT

>From edb@akgua.UUCP (E.D.  Brooks [Emily])
>
>Many moons ago I requested help from this newsgroup in
>re-discovering the title, author, and anthology of a short story I
>had read when much younger (approx.  15 years ago).  Imagine my
>disappointment when I received exactly ZERO replies!  No one
>remembered my story!  (So much for advance thanks!  :-)) But, I
>have found it!  It has been re-released in a *new* collection of
>short stories by Poul Anderson (I might have known he was the
>author) entitled "Dialogue with Darkness".  The particular story I
>was looking for is titled "Sister Planet" and still retains the
>haunting anguish I remembered so well.  This collection credits
>"Satellite", May, 1959 which is apparently a magazine.  I did NOT
>first read this in any magazine (certainly not in 1959!  I hadn't
>learned to read then) and will probably never know what anthology I
>saw it in.

Could it have been one of the following??

ALL ABOUT VENUS ed. by Brain Aldiss
FAREWELL FANTASTIC VENUS ed. by Aldiss & Harry Harrison
GET OUT OF MY SKY ed. by Leo Margulies

My source (Contento's Index) says it was in all three.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 85 01:31:11 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: A new variation on "Does anybody know..."

     Does anybody know who did the cover of the paperback edition of
Godstalk by P.C. Hodgell(sp)? It depicts the lead character standing
on top of the inn where she has made her home in Tai-Tastigon. I
have asked at various cons so far, with no luck. If there is a
signature visible on the cover, I haven't been able to find it.I
would like a print of the cover, so if you know who the artist is
(or even if you know the artist) please tell me so I can look for
it...or put me in touch with them.

     In addition, does anyone know or have any rumors as to whether
this book has/will have a sequel? It was the first book in a long
time that I actually got lost in, and I would like some of the loose
ends cleaned up and also some of the background elucidated. If
anyone knows the author, Pass This Praise On! I hope (s)he writes
more in this style and universe.

thanks for any info
/amqueue

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not *Tigger*.
Be Seeing You....

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: A new variation on "Does anybody know..."
Date: 16 Feb 85 07:26:10 GMT

>Does anybody know who did the cover of the paperback edition of ...

Sure -- the book's publisher knows!  Why not write to them?

If you don't know who published it, and don't have a copy of the
book any more to check, your public library can probably help.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@topaz (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification:
Date: 15 Feb 85 18:27:36 GMT

> This book starts out about a professor whose wife has left him. He
> gets depressed one night, and tries to commit suicide. He's saved
> by his hat.  His wife is a nurse, I think.
> ...
> Any ideas? It's annoying to recall so much of the plot, but not
> the title or author. Someone suggested "The Steel Rat" (or
> something like that). I haven't read that, but it doesn't sound
> familiar.

        This is "Mindkiller", by Spider Robinson.  The paperback
edition is just out; I think I bought the hardback in 1982.  It is
damn good.
        Re "The Steel Rat" -- somebody's memory was jiving around.
The burglar (who officially doesn't exist) calls himself Templeton,
after a rat in a children's book by E. B.  White.  Your friend took
this recollection and spliced it with the title "The Stainless Steel
Rat" by Henry Harrison.

Regards,
Chris
Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:      ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh
US Mail:   MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:     (201) 870-5853

------------------------------

Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 22:29:17-EST
From: Jonathan S. Intner <G.INTNER@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: _Mindkiller_ by Spider Robinson
To: red@TOPAZ.ARPA

Minor Spoiler of _Mindkiller_:

        There's no question in my mind about this story.  It is
without a doubt _Mindkiller_ by Spider Robinson (one of my favorite
authors, of the Callahan's Place stories -- if you haven't read
them, they are great!
        I can't remember the professor's name, but you have the plot
almost perfectly.  (When he attempts to commit suicide, he is saved
by a "bad samaritan," a mugger saves him as he is about to jump off
a bridge.
        Two things you've missed: her boss is her lover and he and
the burglar are the same.
        There is also a good sequence where the professor is seduced
by the mother of one of his students...he says to her that her son
will graduate "Mama Cum Loudly" (boo, hiss)

        The story about the woman is from a short story he wrote (in
the anthology _Time Traveler's Strictly Cash_) and is called, "God
is an Iron."
        Spider Robinson writes in his afterword,
         "Only two things need to be said about this story, and the
first is that it forms Chapter Two of my next novel, _Mindkiller_.
        The second is that, while the character of Karen Scholz is
*not* drawn from life and is wholly imaginary, the business
involving her father is *not* fiction.  It is a transcript, as near
verbatim as my memory will produce, of a story a woman told me in
1967.  (And if she's still alive out there, I'd love to hear from
her.)  Animals like her father are not made up by writers for shock
value; they exist.
        God is an iron...and that's a hot one."

Jonathan Intner
Systems Programmer working for CCIMS of Teachers College.
Office: 241 Horace Mann
Snail Mail: Box 43
            Teachers College
            New York, N. Y.  10027

This represents my personal opinion only;  it in no way reflects any
kind of CCIMS policy.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Feb 85 00:34:56 CST
From: Paul Milazzo <milazzo@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification:
To: ukma!red@topaz.ARPA (Red Varth)

>"This book starts out about a professor whose wife has left him..."

The story is of course Spider Robinson's MINDKILLER, and an excerpt
called "God is an Iron" appeared in OMNI Magazine.  I haven't read
this book in a while, but your description matches what I remember.
Most readers also seem to remember either the infamous bondage scene
or the continual references to Jazz performances (both have merit).
Say, what ever happened to Phyllis, anyway?  She just vanished, and
I was sort of sorry to see her go...

My copy of MINDKILLER was published in 1983 by Berkley, ISBN
0-425-06288-0, from a 1982 hardback edition by Holt, Rinehart.

                        Paul G. Milazzo <milazzo@rice.ARPA>
                        Dept. of Computer Science
                        Rice University, Houston, TX

------------------------------

From: ihuxp!wbpesch@topaz (Walt Pesch)
Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification:
Date: 17 Feb 85 21:46:32 GMT

Yes, I know this one well.  It is Mindkiller, by Spider Robinson
(also of Stardance and Calahan's Crosstime Saloon).  DEFINITELY one
of my top ten favorite books (I can't decide past that point) and
highly recommended, as is anything that he has done.  And he also
gives a history of "wireheading" in the Author's Preface.

Walt Pesch
AT&T Technologies
ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks to all the people who sent in similar
information:

Ray Fusci (Fusci%netman.DEC@decwrl)
William Rucklidge (Utcs!wjr@topaz)
Jody Patilla (Osiris!jcp@topaz)
Monica Cellio (Mjc@cmu-cs-cad)
Andrew Gideon (A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW)
Jerry Duggan (duggan@UTAH-20)
Rich Alderson (A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1])
Jerry Sweet (jsweet@uci-750a)
Berry Kercheval (Zinfandel!berry@topaz)
Rob MacLachlan (RAM@CMU-CS-C)
John L. Romkey (Romkey@mit-borax)
Mike Caplinger (mike@rice)
MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Ken Fineberg (Ncrcae!ken@topaz)
William M. York (York@SCRC-QUABBIN)
Greg Hennessy (Nmtvax!student@topaz)
Michael D. Cooley (Cooley@nmtvax.UUCP)
Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] (quint@RU-BLUE)
Morris M. Keesan (keesan@BBNCCI)
]

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 Feb 85 23:54:14-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
Subject: Stasheff

        Just spoke briefly to Christopher Stasheff, author of 'The
Warlock in Spite of Himself. Though not familiar with the series
myself, I think the list might like to hear about upcoming titles:

"The Warlock Enraged"           coming out of ACE in April 85
"The Warlock Wandering"         just sent to publisher.
"The Warlock is Missing"        out June 86

        1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties
Wizard", a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated to
the Warlock series and universe.
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Help finding a title
Date: 15 Feb 85 00:06:35 GMT

>Can anyone remember a book of short stories, at least 20
>n years old, containing "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul"?  The lead
>story and the book title were the same and had something to do with
>drug expanded consciousness -- MindBender?  MindBreaker?  Something
>like that.  Any clues?  THANKS!!!!  I believe this is by C.M.
>Kornbluth, from (sic) The Best Of C.M.  Kornbluth.

I didn't remember that "Lady" was in the anthology but I recognized
your description as being "Mind Partner" by Christopher Anvil from
the book MIND PARTNER AND 8 OTHER NOVELETS FROM GALAXY ed. by H. L.
Gold.  I have always been fond of "Mind Partner" as being one of the
best drug-related stories.  "Lady" follows it directly in the book.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 1985 22:09:50-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks 223-9408)
Subject: Group Mind stories

Another "Group Mind" story is "Encounter Near Venus", author
forgotten, which I read in my youth. This is a juvenile, but an
excellent one.

I vaguely recall another novel, involving telepathy, where a strong
telepath would gather a group of people and begin to tell them a
story, telepathically. The telepath would integrate the personas of
his listeners as characters - the ultimate role playing game, with
the telepath as DM.  This was not portrayed as a good thing: the
listeners (and the DM) would become so involved in the story they
never bothered to eat, and usually died. The heroes of this novel
were "good telepaths", who would use long distance ranging to find
a circle of affected listeners, and then insert themselves in the
game, make it go sour, and thereby break it up. This took exceptional
will power, and if the "good telepath" failed, he or she might be
dragged into the story and (eventually) die. Can't remember the title,
I regret to say.

Don't know if this is what you were looking for, but there is a
book by D.G. Compton called "The Steel Crocodile", and the famous
Harry Harrison "Stainless Steel Rat" series.

        - "We are the Warriors on the Edge of Time, and we're
                tired of making love..."

                        "MAXSON%VAXWRK.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA"
                        Mark Maxson / VAXworks / PKO2-1/M11
                        DEC /129 Parker St./ Maynard, MA/ 01754

------------------------------

Date: Sat 16 Feb 85 10:54:11-PST
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Group mind/racial memory

        "The Invincible," by Stanislaw Lem has an excellent and
unique example of a species(for lack of a better word that isn't a
spoiler) with a collective consciousness.

        The book is quite enjoyable, and, contains a rather
fascinating analogue to evolution...

                        B i l l

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: Followup to a number of articles
Date: 14 Feb 85 02:26:15 GMT

>From: victoro%Nosc@crash.ARPA Subject: Pointers please?
>
>
>I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group
>minds.

Racial memory AND (to some extent) group minds are treated in the sf
film QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH).  For
group minds, the best piece is MIDWICH CUCKOOS by John Wyndham (made
into the movie VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED).  Also see MORE THAN HUMAN by
Theodore Sturgeon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 85  8:15:32 EST
From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
Subject: Help ! Book Title and Author search.

                               HELP !

I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish)
years ago . I may have the story confused with others i have read
but here is the little you've got to go on .
        The story is set maybe on earth , a group of humanoids, (
who may later turn out to be insects !) live near the sea in a vast
forest/jungle , i think they live in trees / foliage (?) .  The
story is told in the First person by one of the humanoids and i
think it narrates his life , there is a question that is present
throughout the story , something to do with where they come from or
got to . There are battles with other tribes of similar humanoids
the main target being food which is in short supply.  In the end of
the story our humanoid get into (burrows) a moth which lands on the
top of the trees/foliage and which then flies to the moon where our
humanoid turns into a fly ( man this sounds crazy ! but i'm sure i
read it ) .  I remember the jungle being full of nasty things they
had to avoid like plants which eat you . Also every thing was very
BIG ( or they were very small ) . Some of the humanoids had
different functions in life , i remember a humanoid-type "designed"
to carry things with a hunched back and funny arms .  Maybe
something to do with spiders , maybe it was set in the future (
where ever that is ? ) , post nuclear war ? Now i'm just guessing .
That is all i remember . Anyone got any ideas please send to
SF-LOVERS or if possible jlong@BBN-UNIX .  Thank-you . Julain long .

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: YA Identify This Story?
Date: 13 Feb 85 22:04:10 GMT

Well, here I am, yet again posting an identification request.  Don't
you wish net.sf-lovers came with a scroll of identify?

The story was in Analog, I think it was a serial and I read an early
part and the last part.  It started with unkillable pink slime in a
petri dish and ended with a bunch of supermen (actually I think a
man and a woman) fleeing someone and slipping into a universe (!)
charted as antimatter but which was actually safe.  I don't remember
much more about it.  And they may have been two different stories
with similar premises.

Please ****** M A I L ****** me any responses.  I am still trying to
catch up on 60 net.sf-lovers articles; I don't want to add any more
too soon.

Brandon Allbery, decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa,
"ncoast!bsa"@case.csnet (etc.)
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131
+1 216 524 1416 (or what have you)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 85 1002-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #65
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:

         Books - Niven & Group Minds (2 msgs) & A Request,
         Films - Star Trek IV (6 msgs),
         Television - Quark,
         Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation & SF Book Club &
                 New Tape/Disc Releases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Niven
Date: 19 Feb 85 15:19:24 GMT

> Tree of life root will kill you if you are too old.  What if you
> start taking the youth-preserving drugs SOON enough?  You are now
> over 100, physically aged 26, and you find some tree of life root.
> (Or rather, it finds you!)  What happens?

It killed the Hero didn't it?  Moreover, we have it on the authority
of the protector Teela Brown that it was because he was too old by
many centuries even though he was physically still quite youthful.
I'd take her word for it. After all she's much smarter and
knowledgeable than any breeder.

                       Ethan Vishniac
                       {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
                       Department of Astronomy
                       University of Texas
                       Austin, Texas 78712

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci)
Subject: Pointers please?
Date: 15 Feb 85 18:26:41 GMT

>From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
>
>I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds.

   This may not be exactly what you want, but how about _Dune_ by
Frank Herbert? If you remember, the Reverend Mothers of the
Sisterhood had the composite memories of all past Reverend Mothers,
not to mention Paul and Alia, Leto and Ghanima, who had access to
the minds of ALL their ancestors.

David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar)
St. Joseph's University
Philadelphia
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci

------------------------------

From: unc!gibson@topaz (Bill Gibson)
Subject: Re Group minds
Date: 16 Feb 85 21:51:32 GMT

>From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1576)
>
>Probably the best depiction of the group mind/racial memory idea is
>Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End". (Highly recommended.)
>Another novel that also considers the idea of the group mind is
>Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human". (Also highly recommended.)

A racial memory (referred to as 'the Recorder') plays an important
role in the Gandalara Cycle, a series which Randall Garrett and
Vickie Heydron (?sp) are writing.  The series starts with 'The Steel
of Raithskar'; the latest (6th) book is 'Return to Eddarta'
(publication date in the front says March 1985).

This series revolves around a culture which lives in a large desert
region on an unspecified planet. More fantasy than SF, I guess. One
of the most interesting aspects for me is the relationship between
bipedals/human-types and sentient carnivore cats. These two groups
act as sort of police/army in a society where few formal rules can
be enforced.

The books are (for me) very difficult to put down.

Bill Gibson
gibson@unc
...[akgua,decvax,philabs]!mcnc!unc!gibson

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 85 11:38:59 PST (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Titles Request - Computer Science Fiction

#define CSF "Computer Science Fiction"

I sometimes go on reading binges.  Recently, I read ALL of the
available Jack Vance science fiction.  A couple of years ago I read
all of Niven's "Known Space" series.

Now I'd like to read all of the available CSF \THAT IS WORTH
READING/.  I realize that this is nearly impossible, since a lot of
the really good computer science fiction is in short stories.

So I am humbly requesting recommendations.  CSF is a rather vague
definition, so I will define the boundaries of my interest by
example.  So far, I have read:

Novel:  WHEN HARLEY WAS ONE, D. Gerrold
Comment: barf, mostly trash -- "Do you roll-over afterwards?" -- gag!

Novel:  TRUE NAMES, V. Vinge
Comment: the best - my standard for "worthiness"

Novel:  COMPUTER CONNECTION, A. Bester
Comment: I don't care what the rabid Bester fans say, I LIKED this
book.  It has one of the best descriptions of JPL, albeit
extrapolated into the future, that I have read (Benford did a good
job too).

Novel:  THE WEB OF ANGELS, ???
Comment: I don't remember who wrote this. It was really three
novellettes fused into a novel, or so it seemed to me.

There are a couple of short stories that I read a long time ago
whose titles I have forgotten, but they weren't that interesting
anyway.

Note that I am not interested in "robot" stories for this list
(which is not to say that I am not interested in robot stories
altogther!  "Home is the Hangman" and most of Asimov's robot stories
are among my favorites, but I don't consider them a part of the same
sub-genre.)

Send your suggestions to me, and I will forward a digest to the
list.

Thanks!

"Your bits are MINE, loser!  I will zero them SLOWLY!"

Perry
Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA

------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: George Takai commments on STIV
Date: 15 Feb 85 14:52:44 GMT

     George Takai is in town for a ST Convention in Baltimore this
weekend (Cockeysville, to be exact).  In a brief telephone interview
on a Washington, DC radio station he said that the next film (STIV)
will be "much lighter in tone -- more fun" than the last two.  He
gave examples of "fun" episodes: The Trouble With Tribbles, Shore
Leave...

     The announcer commented on how his wife was so upset after the
last film (first the Beatles break up... now they burn the
Enterprise!).  Sulu said something to the effect that after STII
people thought Spock was gone forever and that you can do lots of
things in sci fi.

Fred Avolio {decvax,seismo}!grendel!avolio
301/731-4100 x4227

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 85 17:35:07 EST
From: Lear@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: ST4 / MY IDEA

ST3 left our heros in an awkward position. They had a klingon ship
and had blown up the Enterprise.  I truly doubt that Kirk, Spock,
and company will continue to trek around in this manner.  Let's
recall a few facts from Star Trek, the series and ST3:

1)  Could anyone imagine SPOCK running around in a klingon ship?!?
2)  In saving Spock,  our heros did a service to the federation
    by showing how fast their new starships could be crippled,
    by capturing a Klingon ship (I would imagine they're a rather
    rare commodity), and (as Spock would say) saving a valued
    officer.
3)  The Enterprise was going to be junked anyway.  At least it
    died in the line of duty.
4)  Let's not forget that Spock's family has a lot of weight in
    the Federation.

For these reasons let us assume that kirk and the others beat the
charges held against them.  This leaves us with the next big
question. What to do for a ship?  Well, I do not believe that Kirk
could get another constitution class vessel simply because most of
them are or should be retired.  This is why the Enterprise was to be
lost in the first place.  This leaves a lot of room for speculation.
There is a grand opportunity to use The Guardian of Forever ( as has
been done in at least one book).

                        Until Next Time,
                                Eliot Lear
                                                [LEAR@RU-BLUE.ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 18 Feb 1985 06:18:32-PST
From: rcodyer%bailey.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Spock here,ready to beam up...)
Subject: Star Trek 4

I"ve been reading some SF stuff on compuserve. A gentleman who has
some inside info on the plot of Star Trek 4 posted it.  According to
him, the plot is around Kirks courtmartial (sound familiar?) for
stealing and losing the Enterprise. He is also on trial for
inadvertantly supplying the Klingons with information on the Genesis
project. In the meantime, the crew that assisted him, although not
on trial, are captured by the Klingons.  Kirk manages to breakout
and with "new" cast members, rescues the crew. I don't know whether
Leonard Nimoy has a part in this movie or not, but I understand his
character of Spock is on Vulcan still recovering. Nimoy directs
this movie, and Shatner will be in it after holding out for $2
million. It's been suggested that this could be the last movie with
the original show cast, if not the last movie period. Any other info
out there?

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV plot ??
Date: 16 Feb 85 00:12:39 GMT

I'm surprised that no one has come up with this one.

        Sarek is so happy that his son is back but was upset over
jim losing his son and ship. Sarek then uses his considerable
influence to get jim back in good standing with the federation or
gets jim a ship from the vulcan science academy. And so, jim's back
in business.

        How simple can you get?
                                        Random
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: Star Trek 4
Date: 18 Feb 85 18:05:49 GMT

>According to him, the plot is around Kirks courtmartial (sound
>familiar?) for stealing and losing the Enterprise. He is also on
>trial for inadvertantly supplying the Klingons with information on
>the Genesis project. In the meantime, the crew that assisted him,
>although not on trial, are captured by the Klingons.  Kirk manages
>to breakout and with "new" cast members, rescues the crew. I don't
>know whether Leonard Nimoy has a part in this movie or not, but I
>understand his charachter of Spock is on Vulcan

Good grief.  I hope that this source is wrong.  What a boring and
stupid plot.  I think of all the things that could be done with this
movie and sigh to think that it may be just something like this.  I
say, just let Kirk, et. al. clear themselves of the charges quickly
and cleanly (maybe giving it about as much time as Han Solo's rescue
in Return of the Jedi), and let them all go off for adventure once
again.  If, as seems likely, this is indeed the last of the original
cast, I think that they should be put to good use.

Derek Zahn @ wisconsin
{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek
derek@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

From: reed!cthulu@topaz (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek 4
Date: 14 Feb 85 23:49:03 GMT

How about "The Trial"?  Offhand I can think of about six crimes from
the last movie that should have Kirk looking down his own sword at a
court-martial.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 85 15:52:51 EST
From: Elliott C. Buchholz <BUCHHOLZ@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Quark

     Okay.  A lot of stuff has been floating around about Quark
(Which I happen to feel was an excellent spoof), so I might as well
throw in my 2 cubits worth.  I don't know how much of this has
already been revealed, but here goes:

QUARK

set in 2226
The voyages of an interplanetary garbage scow, sent out by the
U.G.S.P.  (United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol), commissioned to clean
up the Milky Way.

                           Cast

Captain Adam Quark.........................Richard Benjamin
Betty I, co-pilot.........................Tricia Barnstable
Betty II, clone, co-pilot....................Cyb Barnstable
Ficus, the Vegaton, science officer..........Richard Kelton
Gene/Jean, the transmute, chief engineer......Tim Thomerson
Andy, the cowardly robot.......................Bobby Porter
The Head, head of U.G.S.P.....................Allan Caillou
Otto Palindrome, chief architect of
                 Space Station Perma One,
                 base for U.G.S.P..............Conrad Janis
Music:               Perry Botkin, Jr.
Executive Producer:  David Gerber
Producer:            Bruce Johnson
Director:            Hy Averback, Bruce Bilson, Peter H. Hunt
Creator:             Buck Henry

NBC--February 24, 1978 - April 14, 1978    8 Episodes

Now all I need is an episode guide.

Maybe for Star Trek IV, Kirk can take control of Quark's ship, and
have Ficus pollinate on/with Spock.  Hmmm, subplots, subplots.
Scotty and Gene/Jean in a lover's triangle...Nah!

Oh, well.
                                 Elliott BUCHHOLZ@RU-GREEN

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!0607jj04@topaz (johnston)
Subject: Japanese Animation
Date: 11 Feb 85 15:24:10 GMT

Salutations ( and other forms of greeting ) !

You'll have to forgive me (that is, I hope you will) for posting
this on so many boards, but I thought a wider dispersion might bring
some useful replies.

I'd like to know if anyone out there has an interest in Japanese
animation especially the histories, books, memorabilia, videos, etc.
of
     1) the YAMATO series films and TV serials
        (both the Japanese originals and the American
        cloned 'Star Blazers')
     2) the GALAXY EXPRESS 999 TV serials
     3) the 'MY YOUTH IN ARCADIA' serials and/or films
     4) older Japanses animation, such as SPEED RACER.

The quality of the artwork of these productions is outstanding, and
this opinion can be supported by (almost) anyone who has viewed
these productions.  CREATION (c) conventions often invite dealers in
Japanese science fiction animation to their events, but their
selecton of memorabilia has only recently improved, and the amount
of video they have available is nearly nil !

Any info you can spare will be GREATLY appreciated !  Let me know
I'm not completely alone out here.

                        "Can you read Japanese ?"
                        "With artwork like this, does it
                            really matter ???"

                        JOhn JOhnston, YAMATO Flight Crew
                        @ Saint Joseph's University,
                        Philadelphia, Pa.

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 9 Feb 85 19:09:15 GMT

> I've been in the book club twice now.
> Overall my reaction to their selection is an old fashioned
> "raspberry"!  They have a few oldies but goodies, alot of current
> (last two or three years), and VERY few new ones. Also, the new
> ones are never available till after they make it to the
> bookstores.  In other words, go for the freebies when you sign-up,
> but get out ASAP.
> What we need is good old fashioned competition in the sci-fi
> bookclub market!!

I have to agree. I belonged to the book club briefly back in the
early '60s, and joined again about 2-3 years ago. I've purchased
very few books since rejoining, and recently got a form letter
asking why I hadn't purchased any books recently, and did I still
want to be on their mailing list?

Typical recent offerings include every Stephen King book ever
written, Star Trek and Star Wars novelizations, a fictional account
of a Third World War by a retired military officer, and (as the
above writer points out) VERY few hot new titles. The quality of the
books themselves is mediocre: cheap paper, inexpensive binding, many
typos in the text. I've decided to buy titles I'm interested in at
my local bookstore in quality hardcover editions, and hang the SF
Book Club membership. I can't really recommend this book club to
anyone.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985 08:29-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: new tape/disc releases

        In a recent new catalog of tape and lsaer disc releases I
observed that next month the following will be released.

        1) Star Trek III

        2) Buckaroo Banzai

        3) about 12 Star Trek episodes

        Also, the JPL is issuing on Laser Disc the fourth in its
series of photos from its Planetary Images series. This one includes
a lot of Pioneer photos from the Jupiter/Saturn missions plus a 14
minute bit from the Viking Mars landing in 3D! The disc will include
those wonderful glasses. It should be interesting.

                                                Wes Miller
                                                wesm@mitre.bedford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 85 1121-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #66
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 22 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:

           Books - Gibson & Hartwell & Hodgell & Priest &
                   Stasheff & Sucharitkul & Zelazny,
           Films - Computers in Films & Zardoz & The Road Warrior &
                   A Boy and His Dog & John Saxon (2 msgs) &
                   Best SF Films (2 msgs) & Worst SF Films,
           Television - Early TV (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: oliveb!long@topaz (Dave Long)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer
Date: 20 Feb 85 01:42:25 GMT

    "Neuromancer" is certainly a good book.  Does anyone know if
William Gibson has written anything else besides "Neuromancer",
"Burning Chrome", and "Johnny Mnemonic"?  In "Neuromancer", Molly
Millions (from "Johnny Mnemonic") talks for a while about what
happened to her and Johnny after the end of "Johnny Mnemonic".  Is
there any similar connection with "Burning Chrome"?  (I have a hunch
that the deck jockey might be the same one from "Burning Chrome",
but I can't check it out right now.)
                                                Dave Long

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 1985 18:33:43-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: AGE OF WONDERS by David G. Hartwell

     Anybody seen and/or read a new non-fiction book by David G.
Hartwell called AGE OF WONDERS? It seems to be a collection of
opinions, ruminations, and anecdotes concerning his experiences with
SF/Fantasy. If you've read it, is it good/lousy,
interesting/tedious, objective/prejudiced, etc.? Thanks for any
advice....
                                        ---  Jeff Rogers
                                             jcr@Mitre-Bedford

------------------------------

Subject: Re: "Godstalk" and P.C. Hodgell
Date: 20 Feb 85 11:33:21 EST (Wed)
From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA>

        I, too, would like info about who P.C. Hodgell is, and if
there are any more books in the works by this person.  The only
thing harder than selling a first novel, these days, is selling a
second novel - or so I hear.  I'd like to see a second novel from
this one.

        I've remarked in the past about how much new, good fantasy
is coming out.  Many of these authors seem to have a very firm grip
on plotting and characterization, but most of the work is very
derivative.  I hope they'll grow out of this, but in the meantime,
I'll take the good writing, derivative or not.

        So who's P.C. Hodgell?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 85 01:34:34 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Christopher Priest's THE GLAMOUR

It's tough to find books by Christopher Priest in this country.
Fortunately I was able to purchase a British edition of Priest's
seventh and most recent novel, THE GLAMOUR (Jonathan Cape: London,
1984).  I say 'fortunately' both because I think THE GLAMOUR is
Priest's best novel yet, and because the incredibly tactful blurb on
this edition manages to avoid giving the story away and ruining much
of the suspense, as many American editions do...

Let me try to tell you enough about the book to make you want to
read it, without giving the good parts away.  Richard Grey is a TV
cameraman with a reputation for getting film in situations where
other people might be killed: street riots in Belfast, guerrilla war
in Central America.  He has a knack for making himself unobtrusive
and unnoticed, which allows him to shoot candid and realistic
footage for which he has won awards.  One day his luck runs out --
walking home to his flat in London he passes a police station at the
same time that a car bomb explodes.  Several people die; Grey is
horribly maimed, but survives.  As the novel opens, Grey is
gradually recovering the use of his body in a convalescent home, but
his memory has failed him; he cannot recall any of the events in the
six months preceding his ordeal.  One day a woman comes to visit him
and he learns that she was his lover in the time that is now hidden
to him.  As he grows to know her again, he begins to realize that
there is something odd about her and her mysteriously distant
ex-boyfriend...  This oddness becomes so striking that by the end of
the book the reader becomes thoroughly paranoid, but (as I
discovered) perhaps not paranoid enough...

The book has perhaps one weak point, and that is its coyness about
revealing its central premise.  It moves slowly, dwelling upon
Grey's romance when the reader KNOWS something very strange is up.
The final plot twist is so wickedly clever, however, that I'm more
than willing to forgive the indulgence...  Very originally handled,
elegantly written, and chilling.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 16:06 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel@umass-cs>
Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff

>         1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties
> Wizard", a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated
> to the Warlock series and universe.

Well, in 1979, "A Wizard in Bedlam" was published (and therefore
written in 1978 at the earliest).  While it is not immediately
apparent that the book is related to the Warlock series, closer
reading will show that one of the characters is Magnus d'Armand (son
of Rod Gallowglass and Gwendelon); in fact, Magnus is the 'Wizard'
of the title, and thus the book cannot be said to be unrelated at
all.

My suspicious mind cannot help noting the 'Wizard' in the new novel,
and, given Stasheff's tendency to 'Warlock' novels for Rod, will
have yielded to the same pattern in "Her Majesty's Wizard".
Incidentally, in the 1982 printing of "The Warlock In Spite Of
Himself", HMW was listed as 'forthcoming'.  Ace Books is certainly
taking its own sweet time getting it in print!

                                        Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: uiucdcs!friedman@topaz
Subject: Re: Suckaritkul advice sought
Date: 19 Feb 85 21:20:00 GMT

I would recommend reading the books in this order:

        "Light on the Sound"
        "The Throne of Madness"
        "Utopia Hunters"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:38 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel@umass-cs>
Subject: New Amber Novel

The new Amber novel, (THE?) TRUMPS OF DOOM, is due out from Arbor
House in hardcover this May, according to AH sf editor David
Hartwell.  Watch for it.
                                          Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 1985 08:51:18-EST
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: re: computers in films (microtrivia)

There were DECMATES (or something similar, all decs look alike to
me) all over the place in the BH police station.(1st generation?)
             Jim

------------------------------

From: dsd!ross@topaz (Evan Ross)
Subject: Re: ZARDOZ
Date: 19 Feb 85 22:11:28 GMT

I saw this film about a year ago.  It was about a group of sixties
throwbacks who lived within a shielded area in the midst of
post-devastation earth.  It seems that they were immortal but wanted
to die.  Therefore they allowed Sean Connery to enter their world,
which he eventually destroys.  The entire film was quite dated by
its use of late sixties-style costuming and sets.

                        Evan Ross   decwrl!amd!fortune!dsd!ross

"To oppose something is to maintain it.
 To oppose vulgarity is inevitably to be vulgar."

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 1985 18:20:02-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: "The Road Warrior"

     Alastair Milne recently mentioned that "Mad Max" and other
similar films were surely among the worst our genre has to offer.
Though I agree for most of the titles he listed, I MUST take
exception where "The Road Warrior" is concerned. C'mon, Alastair,
this was a fine movie!

     Though it arose from a mixture of two of the most cliche-ridden
genres in film, the car-chase movie and the SF movie, the film
itself contained surprisingly few cliches. It featured interesting,
non-cardboard characters, and a protagonist who actually evolved
during the course of the movie!

     But more important is the fact that this movie was dealing in
archetypes, just like "Star Wars." And I think it dealt with them
quite successfully. Max is a great protagonist, struggling against
his past and his fears, struggling to once more have faith in at
least SOME human beings.  (Please note that I'm talking about "The
Road Warrior" and NOT "Mad Max!")

     I went to see this movie with fairly low expectations, and came
away absolutely delighted! Apparently something similar happened for
a lot of us when we saw "The Terminator," but I would put "The Road
Warrior" way above "The Terminator."

     I see now that they're filming yet a third Mad Max movie; I'll
doubtless go see it, and again my hopes won't be high. But who
knows?  Perhaps I'll be unexpectedly delighted once more.

     More opinions, anyone?
                                   ---  Jeff Rogers
                                        jcr@Mitre-Bedford

------------------------------

From: smu!jay@topaz
Subject: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 19 Feb 85 16:14:00 GMT

Great movie.  I saw it a long time ago in Dallas actually replayed
in a theater.  It feels like a made-for-tv movie, but it's still
good.  The thing I loved most of course was the ending.  Absolutely
Perfect Scene!!

                          *** SPOILER ***

The hero is escaping and this girl wants to come along.  You wonder
if you should have a happy-all's-well ending.  Then the boy and his
dog leave their camp after a nice dinner.  Guess who was the dinner?
Would someone please expand this ending to it's full glory?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 07:32 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: John Saxon

>From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random)
> The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the
> occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad).
> The first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_
> and a third one that I can't remember the name of. They all deal
> with a post-holocaust (sp?)  world where the only technical and
> peaceful group left is called Pax. Not bad movies on the whole. A
> little standard on the plots but worth a couple hours on saturday
> afternoon.

Sorry, but Saxon was NOT in Genesis II.  This was another
Roddenberry pilot which starred Alex Cord.  Planet Earth was the
second pilot, with Saxon replacing Cord as Dylan Hunt, a relic (via
suspended animation) of the twentieth century.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 14:14 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: John Saxon andGGgnenesis II

> The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the
> occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad).
> The first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_
> and a third one that I can't remember the name of. They all deal
> with a post-holocaust (sp?)  world where the only technical and
> peaceful group left is called Pax.

First of all, John Saxon was not in Genesis II, though the same
character was in both films.  I don't remember the actors' name from
Genesis II, (Gary something I think) But I do remember that I liked
him better than Saxon in the role.

Second of all, these movies are conceived and, I think, directed by
none other than Gene Roddenbury Himself. Also, in Genesis II, Majel
Barrett Roddenbury, (aka Nurse Chapel, Number One) was in it, tho a
bit part.  Also, the woman in the Jim Garner Poloroid ads (I can
never remember her name) is in it, as a genetically engineered human
with two belly buttons.

The story was about a man who is frozen for medical reasons, but
soon afterwards an earthquake collapses the underground building he
is in.  He is awakened after the holocaust by an enclave of people
trying to keep science and civilization alive. This is the group
called Pax.  They are able to cure his disease.  He joins them and
some adventure occurs involving going out into the wilderness, the
nature of which escapes me.

Planet Earth is the sequel to this.  It involves some Amazons that
keep male slaves, but I don't remember much about it, except that
John Saxon seduces the leader of the Amazons.

Brett Slocum

HI-MULTICS.ARPA
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Best SF Films
Date: 20 Feb 85 20:16:37 GMT

You had a good idea, but your execution was poor. Your list is ok,
but if you prefer soft core porno to sf, we part company.  Your list
should drop Barbarella and add the three greatest sf films of all
time:

Destination Moon
2001
Star Wars
Sure Star Wars is more than sf. So is Barbarella.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Best SF Films
Date: 20 Feb 85 20:18:32 GMT

p.s.: Damn! I forgot Blade Runner.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 1985 1707 GMT
From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. <WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA>
Subject: Yet another bad movie

Although they aren't exactly science fiction, the Mexican SAMSON
series of films are notable for their excruciating badness and
unintentional hilarity.  I believe they were made in the late 50's
or early 60's at the Churubusco studios in Mexico, and then dubbed
into english for the American market by K. Gordon Murray.  SAMSON
AND THE VAMPIRE WOMEN is the one title I can recall; it still shows
up sometimes on late night TV in L.A.  Samson, our hero, is a
professional wrestler by day and a scourge of evildoers by night.
He runs around dressed in a mask, cape, and leotard (the same outfit
he wears in the ring) his beer belly hanging out over his belt.
Every time he gets into a fight with the bad guys, they beat the
crap out of him.  Definitely worth seeing if it comes your way.

Bill Weisman
                    Information Processing Center
                    JPL/Caltech
                    Pasadena, CA

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 03:40:34-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: SF show from the 50's

> From: ahuta!leeper@topaz      (Mark Leeper)
> Now let me ask a really obscure one.  I remember around 1955 or
> 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window
> that could see the past (or future?) I think that they could also
> step through the window.  I vaguely remember the show, but have
> never seen a reference to it anywhere.

It sounds like the movie THE TIME TRAVELLERS, although that wasn't
made until 1964. Gary Gerani's FANTASTIC TELEVISION mentions a show
involving time travel that was on in 1955, called CAPTAIN Z-RO.
Perhaps that's it.  It was slightly before my time, so I have no
memory of it, myself. You might also be thinking of a particular
episode of the anthology series SCIENCE FICTION THEATER.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 06:12:54-PST
From: minow%rex.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Obscure 50s tv

Mark Leeper asks about a 50s tv serial that included a "window on
the past."

I'm pretty sure he is referring to Captain Video -- midway through
the evening's adventures, they would say "let's look in on what's
happening on Earth" (and, since they're out in space and light takes
a long time to get there, thye're looking at what's happening a few
years back).

Then, they would run an episode from a cowboy-and-indian serial.

Ahh memories.

Martin Minow

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 85 1145-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #67
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 23 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:

             ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE PRISONER ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael S. Weiss)
Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"?
Date: 12 Feb 85 01:15:24 GMT

> One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a
> number like "6".  I always thought it would have been better if he
> had been "Number 47" or "Number 238" or something, instead of
> "Number 6".

Everything they did was part of the plan to send him over the edge
so he would talk.  Giving him a high number, but no control I
thought was very clever.  A bit of a mind twist.  Also, I feel that
most (95%) of the people there are trying to break number 6, so that
would make him very high man on the Village totem pole.

"I am not a number!"     -Number Six

-Michael  "on the Twilight Node"  Weiss
...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 85 10:08:48 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
From: Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

>  The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the balloon-
> like entity which guards the perimeter of the village.  The way I
> see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very clever No. 6
> from escaping the island, but is this really believeable?  Or am I
> being unreasonably picky?
>  Any thoughts on this?

This is what I got from the interview on TV Ontario...

Rover was originally a remote controlled "robot vehicle" that
actually flipped around, went into water, etc. and did other neat
things.  However, during the filming of one of the early episodes,
Rover went into water, and stayed there. Not being able to fix it in
time, the crew was in the jam. Then someone looked up at the sky and
saw a weather balloon, and that became rover. PM thought that it
came out better with the new Rover than some kind of a mechanical
vehicle.

Incidentally, there is a Prisoner novel that you could buy, provided
you look really hard....I think it's written by Tom Disch.

Daniel Conde
conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ttidcb!jackson@topaz (Dick Jackson)
Subject: Location of the Village - SPOILER LAST EPISODE
Date: 14 Feb 85 16:24:32 GMT

The Village (as opposed to Portmerion) was located in England on the
South coast.

In the last episode, immediately following his escape from the
Village, #6 somehow gets a ride on a well known highway which runs
into London.  My memory is very dim, I think it was the A20 which
goes down to, hmm let me see . . . Kent? Sussex?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 85 10:50 CST
From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Prisoner (Game)

No discussion of the Prisoner should omit the games for the Apple;
the first one was about the cleverest use of low-res graphics ever.
For those who have not been exposed to them, the games capture the
spirit of the show in excellent fashion.  They were produced by a
company called Edu-Ware, which I believe is now defunct.  As with
most Apple games, pirated copies abound, alas; these were two games
which were worth the money.

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci)
Subject: The Prisoner
Date: 12 Feb 85 16:34:39 GMT

[ #6: Whose side are you on?   #2: That would be telling! ]

>I propose we move it to net.tv.  I do love it and want to get a
>rollicking discussion going about it.  Re: episode 7, I have seen
>it so what do you have to say?  And how do you *know* where the
>Village is?
>
>-Michael  "on the Twilight Node"  Weiss
> ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

                   Sounds like a good idea to me, Mike, that is, to
move it to net.tv.  From now on that is where I will look for
discussion.  Point well made re: How do I *know* where the Village
is. I guess I don't *know* where it is. I should know by now that
nothing, repeat NOTHING, is ever as it seems in this show. But I can
tell you how I *think* I know.

       ***** ALERT!! ALERT!!  SPOILER APPROACHING!!  *******

       In episode 7, did not No. 6 and his old colleagues trace the
route he had sailed and determine using various scientific methods
that his point of departure must have been the Baltic coast of
Lithuania? And did he not fly in the jet to that very spot when he
was dropped like a hot potato? It seems to me that this is pretty
convincing evidence, but I do concede that there is always a 'bug'
lying dormant in evidence like this.

       By the way, do you (or anyone else) have any ideas about the
'funny-umbrellas' or the old-fashioned bicycle. viz. significance? I
hope we're not going to dominate this discussion.

David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar)
St. Joseph's University
Philadelphia
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci

------------------------------

From: ukc!msp@topaz (M.S.Parsons)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 14 Feb 85 12:28:11 GMT

mgh@hou5h.UUCP (Marcus Hand) writes:
>The village used in the prisoner is in Cornwall, the
>southwestern-most county of england where its always damp, rarely
>snows except on the moors and generally has some pretty lush and
>interesting vegetation.  The actual village's name escapes me at
>present, so I'll look on a map when I get home and see if I
>remember the name.

No! NO! The village is in Wales, UK, a place called Port Merian (Not
sure of the spelling.)

Mike Parsons UUCP: ..{ucl-cs,cfg,edcaad,mcvax,kcl-cs}!ukc!msp
msp@ukc.UUCP
JANET:MSP%UKC%{EDXA,UCL-CS}..                         MSP@UKC.AC.UK
Mail: Computing Lab, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, England.

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!kelem@topaz
Subject: The Village, revisited
Date: 13 Feb 85 21:23:39 GMT

I noticed that there were several explanations of where The Village
was located.  One was correct, one close, and one placed the Village
in the wrong country.

The Prisoner was filmed at the Italianate village of Portmeirion,
county Gwynedd, Wales.  Portmeirion is on Cardigan Bay, in Snowdonia
National Park, about 8 miles southwest of Blenau Ffestiniog.  It's
not far from Llanfairpwlgwyngwllgogyrychwyrndrobyllllantysiliogogogoch
on the Isle of Anglesey.  (remember, in Welsh pronunciation: ll=a
mixture of L and TH, w=oo as in "moon", y=short i as in "with".)

The village contains a hotel (I stayed on a farmhouse nearby, so I
don't know how much it costs to stay there.) that served as the
grounds of The Village.  The village is beautiful and great fun to
run around in after having seen The Prisoner several times.  Number
6's quarters are occupied by a shop run by the Six of One Society.
One of The Village taxis is owned by the man running the shop and a
penny-farthing bicycles is outside Number 6.  Souvenirs, pictures,
buttons, newsletters, and memberships in the society can be
purchased there.  Down at the beach is the "stone boat" that showed
up in several of the episodes.  The "boat" is really an extension of
the walkway, built up to make it look like a boat.  If you go at low
tide, you can see an incredible stretch of sand exposed as the water
empties out of the bay.

Recommendation:  If you're going to Britain, don't skip Wales.

------------------------------

From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael S. Weiss)
Subject: The Prisoner finds a home
Date: 12 Feb 85 02:01:21 GMT



Does anyone know if there is any prisoner paraphenalia (sp?) around
and where to get it?  I would like the id button (the big tricycle)
especially.

"I am not a number!"  -Number Six

-Michael  "on the Twilight Node"  Weiss
...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 85 11:01:04 PST (Monday)
Subject: Prisoner: Penny Farthing bicycle
From: conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

The Penny Farthing bicycle seen on each Villager's badge, as well as
being a general symbol of the show, is supposed to symbolize how the
small wheel (the common man) is pulled by the large wheel (society
in general). According to Stan Tenen (who hosted the show when it
was on KQED, San Francisco) 7 years ago when he came to visit our
Prisoner club, one of the early showings of the Prisoner had the end
title of the bicycle dissolve into a picture of the earth with the
moon orbiting it.  This was also supposed to show the tug of earth's
gravity prevented the moon from going elsewhere on its own.
(Please..no Space 1999 comments).  I think I the same thing after
Fall Out, but you may want to keep any eye for it during the current
run on KTEH, San Jose and elsewhere.

Also of note is the pyramid with the eye seen in the court room
during Fall Out. When that was shown, the authors of the Illuminati
series came to the show to discuss how the symbol is seen
everywhere.

The show seems to have many obvious and not so obvious symbols
strewn about. As a matter of fact, the reading list at the end of
the "Prisoner Puzzle" from TV Ontario has Carl Jung's "Man and His
Symbols" as a recommended text for studying the series. Some people
may carry the analysis of symbols too far, but it's still fun to
talk and think about.

Incidentally, I wrote to TV Ontario about 7 years ago for a copy of
the Prisoner Puzzle, but they won't send it to you unless you are an
educational TV station or the like.  Perhaps you could encourage
your local TV station to acquire it for you. Then they could go sell
it to you during a pledge drive.

Dan "A Still Tongue Keeps a Happy Life" Conde, No. Sqrt(-1)
conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman)
Subject: Re: Commando Cody, Flash Gordon, V and Otherworld (TV)
Date: 14 Feb 85 17:10:37 GMT

While The Prisoner TV show is interesting and has some SF elements,
it is only marginally SF.  I didn't think it was so good because if
they wanted the information so bad, they would have just tortured
him which is what the Nazis did.

Hank Heyman, IMS, Rockville, MD

------------------------------

From: saber!msc@topaz (Mark Callow)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 18 Feb 85 23:58:22 GMT

> The village used in the prisoner is in Cornwall, the
> southwestern-most county of england where its always damp, rarely
> snows except on the moors and generally has some pretty lush and
> interesting vegetation.

Nonsense.  The Village is Port Merion in North Wales, which isn't a
real village.  Port Merion is a holiday resort; each building
contains several rooms or apartments of what is basically a large
and somewhat unusual hotel.  It was built in an Italianesque style
by Sir Clough Williams-Ellis.

I was there in August.  Sadly it had an air of faded glory and was
in need of painting.  It's still interesting to visit though.  They
have a Prisoner souvenir shop in Number 6's cottage.

Very little of the Prisoner was actually filmed there.  A set was
built at the studio.

From the TARDIS of Mark Callow
msc@saber.UUCP,  saber!msc@decwrl.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!saber!msc, ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!saber!msc

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Re: The Prisoner's village
Date: 19 Feb 85 13:13:20 GMT

The Village, as it was called, is indeed PortMeiron.  A long and
very pictorial essay on this village was included in a previous
issue of the American journal "Fantasy Empire."  This village was
also used for the filming of the Dr. Who classic, "Masque of
Mandragora."

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 19 Feb 85 13:19:40 GMT

The Prisoner does return.  Several episodes have been released on
videotape, and can be mail-ordered, or bought in any store.  You can
also buy the three books written in the late Seventies...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 14:03 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Prisoner Books

 The Prisoner books are as follows:

The Prisoner by Thomas M. Disch, New English Library, 1980?, pb

The Prisoner: A Day in the Life by Hank Stine, NEL, 1981?, pb

The Prisoner: Who is Number Two? by David McDaniel, NEL, 1982?, pb
 (also published by ACE as The Prisoner: Number Two?)

The copyright notices in these books mention that these were all
published by ACE from 1969-1970. I have read the first one, and it
does very well at capturing the essence of the series.  And it
starts after the series.

I bought these within the last two years so you should be able to
get them at your local SF specialty bookstore, or any store that
will order for you. .  In Minneapolis, we have Uncle Hugo's Science
Fiction Bookstore, named for Hugo Gernsback.

Brett Slocum

ARPA:  Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz (john)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner
Date: 9 Feb 85 17:56:00 GMT

   The only thing certain about episode #7 was that the pilot knew
where the village was. Since the pilot was the one who ejected #6 it
is possible that he was one of them. You cannot assume that the
pilot found the village by following #6's instructions which means
that they may or may not be valid.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: hou4a!mab@topaz (Michael Brochstein)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 21 Feb 85 15:22:26 GMT

        I have been to The Village, it really exists !

        As many of you know, in the last episode of The Prisoner the
credits list the hotel where it was filmed.  It is in Portmarion
which is on the coast in Wales.  It is indeed intersting to "walk"
in The Village.  It also shows how hollywood can make things look
very different in real life and in person.  The main features of the
village do exist but reality is more down to earth.  The boat in
concrete is there as are all the other architectural items from the
TV show.  They are just smaller and juxtaposed differently in real
life.  You can by a number 6 button for your jacket in the "Village
Shop" but the only other Prisoner souvenirs consist of one paperback
book aimed at younger readers.

        I truly recommend a drive to the village not only to see it
but to see another side of Britain which is not overun by tourists.
It is out of the way but a very pleasent trip through beautiful
countryside.

Michael Brochstein     AT&T Information Systems, Holmdel, NJ
ihnp4!hou4a!mab        (201) 834-3482

------------------------------

From: pete%stc-c.gb.UUCP@topaz (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 21 Feb 85 17:23:54 GMT

Actually----

        The Village is in North Wales. It is called Portmeirion and
was built in the early part of this century by an eccentric
architect name of Sir William Clough-Ellis. If you want to find it
on the map, Portmadoc is the nearest town. Since the series' recent
reshowing on Channel 4 TV, it is now possible to get all kinds of
cutsie souvenirs there. (It costs about #1.50 to get in).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 85 1218-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #68
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 23 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) & Varley,
        Films - Best SF Films & A Boy and His Dog &
                Worst SF Movies & Battle Beyond the Stars (2 msgs),
        Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 16:17:17-PST
From: lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Piers Anthony

I've enjoyed Piers Anthony's Xanth books, his Cluster trilogy (with
a related book Viscous Circle), the Blue Adept/Split Infinity/
Juxtaposition trilogy, etc., but there's one Anthony novel
that surpasses all of these.  It is the first novel of his I ever
read, and it was maybe 10 years before I saw another.  The title is
Macroscope and it is awesome.

Macroscope is about a device called a macroscope, naturally, that is
like a telescope except that it sees "macrons", particles that
travel faster than light.  It is discovered that someone is
broadcasting a macronic signal that kills if you watch it.  The
story relates the efforts to solve the secret of the signal, what
and who is behind it.  I don't want to say more for fear of spoiling
it, but it is a far more "significant" piece of work than any of
Anthony's I've seen since.  I wish he'd do another one as good.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From: byucsa!chris@topaz (Chris J. Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 21 Feb 85 01:07:25 GMT

Jeffrey Allred:
>Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony?  I think he's great.  His
>best work is done with the Xanth series.  Anybody have an up to the
>day list of his works?

I disagree about the Xanth series being his best.  I feel that the
Blue Adept trilogy is better, a little less forced (definitely in
terms of puns).  I do enjoy his style in the fantasy genre.  I have
read some of his hardcore sci-fi and I don't care for it.

As for an up to date list, this man is a voluminous writer, so much
so that he could write under a pseudonym much as S. King has claimed
to have done, just so he won't glut the market with Anthony books.
I coudn't begin to list the number of books he has written.

Speaking of fantasy, a novel I have liked for a long time is
'The Dragon and the George' by Gordon R. Dickson.  Very humorous
look at knights and dragons and magic and such.

        Chris Grevstad
        {ihnp4,noao,mcnc,utah-cs}!arizona!byucsa!chris

------------------------------

From: spock!bbrick@topaz (Bill Brickman '88 )
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony *SEMI-SPOILER*
Date: 20 Feb 85 20:47:33 GMT

Here are some books by Piers Anthony that you should read before
making any opinions about his style of writing.

The Apprentice Adept:   Incarnations of Immortality:     Battlecircle:

Split Infinity          On a Pale Horse                  Sos the Rope
Blue Adept              Bearing An Hourglass             Var the Stick
Juxtaposition           With a Tangled Skein             Neq the Sword
                        Wielding a Red Sword
Mute                    Being a Green Mother             Omnivore
                                                         Orn
Macroscope      Kirlian Quest    Rings of Ice             OX

  These books show a serious but still good side of Piers Anthony's
writings.  The character is still a thinking/acting/self-conscience
person, but the background in which the character lives/dies/thinks
is more dangerous or more complex than the Xanth characters, and the
endings are not always ..lived happily ever after. In _M_u_t_e the
ending does not seem to comply with the story until you reread it.
The main character does not "win" , but the human race is bettered.
Now that I've told the basic ending , I have to tell the story. The
main character is a mutant who has the incredible power (i.e. Talent
! ) to ... Well maybe I would give that away, but I will tell you
that the plot basically is founded on little situations , like in a
quest, that the main character thinks through.
  In the Incarnation series the main characters are again people
with incredible powers (talents again) that make up the Five
Incarnations.  They are Death, Time, Fate, Nature, and War. The
characters again do the same thing.  They think out ways to get
around problems , using their powers to get out of tight spots.
These books are excellent !!!  I thought the endings for these
books, even if he is using the old formula, were great.  All the
books in that list , under Incarnations are excellence, even if only
the first two are acually out.  I thought the first two were great,
so the next must be even better (This is the opposite of what
happened to the Xanth novels. I hope ...). I sincerely hope that you
read these books on the list above (all of them !) and enjoy all.

       Thanks ,

          Bill Brickman

P.S. Does anybody like Anne McCaffrey??? Eddings???  Frank Herbert???
     PLEASE write something.  Don't be afraid to ask questions either.
     Just write something about them.

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Beowulf S. + Louis W.
Date: 15 Feb 85 23:59:52 GMT

The relationship between Bey Schaefer and Louis Wu?  I don't have
any of my books here, so I can't quote directly, but:

1.  Beowulf Shaefer and Sheroll (sp?) want to have a kid
2.  Due to Earth's genetic laws, they cannot have a child on Earth-
    Bey is an albino
3.  Sheroll is a "Flatlander" of the literal type... terrified of
    travelling through space.  Therefore, Bey and Sheroll cannot
    have children.
4.  Carlos Wu has an "unlimited fatherhood certificate", or
    something like that.  As a certifiable genius, he is allowed to
    have as many children as he desires, without interference from
    Earth's population control laws.
5.  As a friend of Bey, Carlos agrees to make Sheroll pregnant, a
    great honor, as Carlos' "Services" are much in demand.
    (sigh...)

I can't remember the name of the short story that covers all this,
but it's the one where a Jinxian scientist has a captive black hole,
and uses it for piracy.  Bey, inbound to Earth, meets Carlos,
outbound, after Sheroll becomes pregnant.  PLEASE, DON'T POST THE
NAME OF THE STORY... I can look it up at home, and if anyone really
want to know the name, mail me.  Lets not clutter up the net with
this!

The puppeteers (sp?) didn't tell Louis of the relationship, as, to a
herd critter, none existed.  I feel that biology would be more to
their interest, rather than who the mother was running around with.
It does tend to drive a "Known Spacer" crazy, though...

                                              Ron Wanttaja
                                              (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz
Subject: re: "There is a Tide" and Louis Wu
Date: 19 Feb 85 11:17:15 GMT

> From: unc!ericksen    (Jim Ericksen)
>> "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story.
>> The former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars
>> Louis Wu...
>>
>> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
>
> Well, you're almost right.  It was Louis's father,
> Carlos Wu.

No, I'm *completely* right. Check again (in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE).
And while you're at it, check the end of the introduction in that
book to see who helped Niven with the Known Space timeline.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 18 Feb 85 17:50:27 GMT

jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) writes:
>> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what
>> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer?  He is by far my favorite
>> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what
>> happens to him.
>
>You never know, niven may be planning more stories. I sure hope so.

        No, he is not(at least presently), he has stated that he
is done with the "Tales of Known Space" universe, since it is now
>> too difficult to maintain consistancy over so many stories.

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}
   !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
 or
quad1!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: re: query
Date: 21 Feb 85 02:58:15 GMT

>> Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other
>> than:
>>
>>   TITAN
>>   WIZARD
>>   DEMON
>>   Picnic on Nearside
>>   Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?)
>>   Millenium
>>   The Persistence of Vision
>
>The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie
>Murders_.  It's up to his usual standard.  Enjoy.

Actually, I believe that _Picnic on Nearside_ is just a reprint of
_the Barbie Murders_.  In the same vein, there is a book called _In
the Hall of the Martian Kings_ which is a reprint (English) of _The
Persistence of Vision_.
                          Muffy

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Best SF Films
Date: 21 Feb 85 04:53:58 GMT

At the risk of boring most people who know me, I would say that the
science fiction film that has impressed me the most for its
sophisticated ideas and quality of narrative is QUATERMASS AND THE
PIT, known in this country by the forgetable title FIVE MILLION
YEARS TO EARTH.  In this the British start by digging a subway
tunnel in London and by the end of the film they have explanations
for telekinesis, ghosts, race memories, race prejudice, similar
myths in different cultures, and a heck of a lot more.  The BBC
tv-play, shown at Seacon, was even better than the film and a little
less cryptic at times.  I cannot remember reading a novel as thought
provoking as this film.  The story was by Nigel Kneale, one of a
series of tv-plays he did revolving around a fictional rocket
scientist, Bernard Quatermass.

Incidently, while I have your attention, anyone out there know where
I can get a VHS copy of a very good and almost unknown science
fiction film called UNEARTHLY STRANGER.  It is quite a good science
fiction tale and done in black and white with no special effects at
all.  That is probably why it disappeared.  Watch for it, though.
It is really worth it.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF movies
Date: 21 Feb 85 04:19:54 GMT

callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:

>Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG?  Come on now!!

Sure, I remember it.  The scenes above ground were decent.  Then it
turned into a pretentious bore.  This *thing* won the hugo based on
Harlan Ellison's name, but if it has been written by Otto Schwartz
it would be really forgotten by now.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: More Bad Movies
Date: 21 Feb 85 04:35:51 GMT

>From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
>All this talk about bad SF films has reminded me of three films I
>saw (and thankfully, quickly forgot.)  Two of them I can't remember
>the titles for, but if anyone else saw them, perhaps they'll
>remember.
>
>1. "The Final Programme", based on one of Michael Moorcock's Jerry
>    Cornelius books.

This was known in the US as LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH and as THE
FINAL PROGRAMME in the UK.

>2.  "Triad(???)", was a big budget film, starring (I believe) Paul
>    Neuman.

This was Robert Altman's QUINTET, starring Paul Newman.

>3.  Title Unremembered - This one came out about the same time as
>    "Battle Beyond the Stars."  It was sort of an ALIEN ripoff; a
>    space ship lands on a planet to retrive a crystal (or
>    something).  The crew must make there way into a huge
>    pyramid/mountain.  In the caverns they meet their worst fears
>    come alive (i.e., the woman who has claustrophobia is crushed
>    in a palpitating cavern).  Worst scene: another of the women is
>    killed by her worst fear; she is raped by a giant snail (I kid
>    you not) that slimes off her clothes (for a flash of bare flesh
>    to wake the audience), and dies moaning.

Best known as GALAXY OF TERROR but also released under the titles
MINDWARP: AN INFINITY OF TERROR and PLANET OF HORRORS.  It was made
by New World Pictures in 1981, the same folks who made BATTLE BEYOND
THE STARS the previous year.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: uokvax!emjej@topaz
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 16 Feb 85 03:00:00 GMT

>My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
>this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
>character who has quite large breasts.
>
>Any comments??

Yes...

1. Down here in darkest Oklahoma, we call it "John-Boy Saves the
   Universe," by virtue of its starring Richard Thomas.

2. When I saw it on NBC, they had the ill grace to black out certain
   portions of some scenes, so I can't vouch for the redeeming
   factor. (Darn it!)

        "Live fast, fight hard, and have a beautiful death..."
        James Jones

------------------------------

From: ctvax!rob@topaz
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 20 Feb 85 17:09:00 GMT

Another redeeming factor of 'Battle Beyond the Stars', aka 'The
Seven Aliens' and 'The Magnificent Seven Aliens' is the fact that
Robert Vaughn played the same character he played in the 'The
Magnificent Seven'.

Viewed as a parody, on the retelling of the 'Seven' story, I found
it amusing, but it was a long time ago that I saw it.

"I'll have what you're having. I want to get loaded too."

Rob Spray
...convex!ctvax!rob

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Re: Scarf issue.
Date: 19 Feb 85 13:34:32 GMT

I posted a rather unhelpful note on the trek network that tells
every piece of information available about the scarf.  The pattern
was in the last issue of the poorly named, "Whovian Times," and the
scarf should be anywhere from 12-20 feet.

As to those original Pertwees, many stations ran a different package
of only 14 out of the 24 adventures.  Then Lionheart conceived their
"Grand Master Plan," as I call it.  A number of stations in the
country just started all the Pertwees on precisely Jan. 1st.  This
is in an attempt to synchronise participating stations with the
eventual object of...

SHOWING THE HARTNELLS AND TROUGHTONS! <MODEST FANFARE, PLEASE>
That's right, folks, they've finally gotten round to it!
There's an unpleasant side of the coin, though.
* Colin Baker will not be seen on Public Television for a couple of
years, in which time they'll have a few seasons to show.
* The Davison package will inexplicably lose the "Caves of
Androzani," because it leads into a Doctor that isn't there, and
because Lionheart wants to edit the regeneration to make it more
obvious (Shades of Howard Da Silva...)  Hang on to your copies of
that one, folks.

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Re: Dr Who
Date: 19 Feb 85 13:47:17 GMT

The episode to which you are referring is in fact, "The Dalek Master
Plan."  It was a twelve parter with a 1 episode prequel that didn't
feature the Doctor.

What do you mean it's regained its chameleon ability?  That had best
not be permanent.  There was a huge letter writing campaign last
year against changing the familiar Police Box, which John
Nathan-Turner thought was better known than a real police box, and
thus subverting British history.  He finally promised it would never
change!

Somehow, it'll break down again, I'm sure, and we'll have that old
blue box again...  Or else I'll commit suicide like the officers of
the Australian Dr. Who fan club...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 85 1218-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #68
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 23 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:

        Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) & Varley,
        Films - Best SF Films & A Boy and His Dog &
                Worst SF Movies & Battle Beyond the Stars (2 msgs),
        Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 16:17:17-PST
From: lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Piers Anthony

I've enjoyed Piers Anthony's Xanth books, his Cluster trilogy (with
a related book Viscous Circle), the Blue Adept/Split Infinity/
Juxtaposition trilogy, etc., but there's one Anthony novel
that surpasses all of these.  It is the first novel of his I ever
read, and it was maybe 10 years before I saw another.  The title is
Macroscope and it is awesome.

Macroscope is about a device called a macroscope, naturally, that is
like a telescope except that it sees "macrons", particles that
travel faster than light.  It is discovered that someone is
broadcasting a macronic signal that kills if you watch it.  The
story relates the efforts to solve the secret of the signal, what
and who is behind it.  I don't want to say more for fear of spoiling
it, but it is a far more "significant" piece of work than any of
Anthony's I've seen since.  I wish he'd do another one as good.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From: byucsa!chris@topaz (Chris J. Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 21 Feb 85 01:07:25 GMT

Jeffrey Allred:
>Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony?  I think he's great.  His
>best work is done with the Xanth series.  Anybody have an up to the
>day list of his works?

I disagree about the Xanth series being his best.  I feel that the
Blue Adept trilogy is better, a little less forced (definitely in
terms of puns).  I do enjoy his style in the fantasy genre.  I have
read some of his hardcore sci-fi and I don't care for it.

As for an up to date list, this man is a voluminous writer, so much
so that he could write under a pseudonym much as S. King has claimed
to have done, just so he won't glut the market with Anthony books.
I coudn't begin to list the number of books he has written.

Speaking of fantasy, a novel I have liked for a long time is
'The Dragon and the George' by Gordon R. Dickson.  Very humorous
look at knights and dragons and magic and such.

        Chris Grevstad
        {ihnp4,noao,mcnc,utah-cs}!arizona!byucsa!chris

------------------------------

From: spock!bbrick@topaz (Bill Brickman '88 )
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony *SEMI-SPOILER*
Date: 20 Feb 85 20:47:33 GMT

Here are some books by Piers Anthony that you should read before
making any opinions about his style of writing.

The Apprentice Adept:   Incarnations of Immortality:     Battlecircle:

Split Infinity          On a Pale Horse                  Sos the Rope
Blue Adept              Bearing An Hourglass             Var the Stick
Juxtaposition           With a Tangled Skein             Neq the Sword
                        Wielding a Red Sword
Mute                    Being a Green Mother             Omnivore
                                                         Orn
Macroscope      Kirlian Quest    Rings of Ice             OX

  These books show a serious but still good side of Piers Anthony's
writings.  The character is still a thinking/acting/self-conscience
person, but the background in which the character lives/dies/thinks
is more dangerous or more complex than the Xanth characters, and the
endings are not always ..lived happily ever after. In _M_u_t_e the
ending does not seem to comply with the story until you reread it.
The main character does not "win" , but the human race is bettered.
Now that I've told the basic ending , I have to tell the story. The
main character is a mutant who has the incredible power (i.e. Talent
! ) to ... Well maybe I would give that away, but I will tell you
that the plot basically is founded on little situations , like in a
quest, that the main character thinks through.
  In the Incarnation series the main characters are again people
with incredible powers (talents again) that make up the Five
Incarnations.  They are Death, Time, Fate, Nature, and War. The
characters again do the same thing.  They think out ways to get
around problems , using their powers to get out of tight spots.
These books are excellent !!!  I thought the endings for these
books, even if he is using the old formula, were great.  All the
books in that list , under Incarnations are excellence, even if only
the first two are acually out.  I thought the first two were great,
so the next must be even better (This is the opposite of what
happened to the Xanth novels. I hope ...). I sincerely hope that you
read these books on the list above (all of them !) and enjoy all.

       Thanks ,

          Bill Brickman

P.S. Does anybody like Anne McCaffrey??? Eddings???  Frank Herbert???
     PLEASE write something.  Don't be afraid to ask questions either.
     Just write something about them.

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Beowulf S. + Louis W.
Date: 15 Feb 85 23:59:52 GMT

The relationship between Bey Schaefer and Louis Wu?  I don't have
any of my books here, so I can't quote directly, but:

1.  Beowulf Shaefer and Sheroll (sp?) want to have a kid
2.  Due to Earth's genetic laws, they cannot have a child on Earth-
    Bey is an albino
3.  Sheroll is a "Flatlander" of the literal type... terrified of
    travelling through space.  Therefore, Bey and Sheroll cannot
    have children.
4.  Carlos Wu has an "unlimited fatherhood certificate", or
    something like that.  As a certifiable genius, he is allowed to
    have as many children as he desires, without interference from
    Earth's population control laws.
5.  As a friend of Bey, Carlos agrees to make Sheroll pregnant, a
    great honor, as Carlos' "Services" are much in demand.
    (sigh...)

I can't remember the name of the short story that covers all this,
but it's the one where a Jinxian scientist has a captive black hole,
and uses it for piracy.  Bey, inbound to Earth, meets Carlos,
outbound, after Sheroll becomes pregnant.  PLEASE, DON'T POST THE
NAME OF THE STORY... I can look it up at home, and if anyone really
want to know the name, mail me.  Lets not clutter up the net with
this!

The puppeteers (sp?) didn't tell Louis of the relationship, as, to a
herd critter, none existed.  I feel that biology would be more to
their interest, rather than who the mother was running around with.
It does tend to drive a "Known Spacer" crazy, though...

                                              Ron Wanttaja
                                              (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz
Subject: re: "There is a Tide" and Louis Wu
Date: 19 Feb 85 11:17:15 GMT

> From: unc!ericksen    (Jim Ericksen)
>> "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story.
>> The former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars
>> Louis Wu...
>>
>> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
>
> Well, you're almost right.  It was Louis's father,
> Carlos Wu.

No, I'm *completely* right. Check again (in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE).
And while you're at it, check the end of the introduction in that
book to see who helped Niven with the Known Space timeline.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 18 Feb 85 17:50:27 GMT

jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) writes:
>> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what
>> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer?  He is by far my favorite
>> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what
>> happens to him.
>
>You never know, niven may be planning more stories. I sure hope so.

        No, he is not(at least presently), he has stated that he
is done with the "Tales of Known Space" universe, since it is now
>> too difficult to maintain consistancy over so many stories.

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}
   !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
 or
quad1!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: re: query
Date: 21 Feb 85 02:58:15 GMT

>> Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other
>> than:
>>
>>   TITAN
>>   WIZARD
>>   DEMON
>>   Picnic on Nearside
>>   Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?)
>>   Millenium
>>   The Persistence of Vision
>
>The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie
>Murders_.  It's up to his usual standard.  Enjoy.

Actually, I believe that _Picnic on Nearside_ is just a reprint of
_the Barbie Murders_.  In the same vein, there is a book called _In
the Hall of the Martian Kings_ which is a reprint (English) of _The
Persistence of Vision_.
                          Muffy

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Best SF Films
Date: 21 Feb 85 04:53:58 GMT

At the risk of boring most people who know me, I would say that the
science fiction film that has impressed me the most for its
sophisticated ideas and quality of narrative is QUATERMASS AND THE
PIT, known in this country by the forgetable title FIVE MILLION
YEARS TO EARTH.  In this the British start by digging a subway
tunnel in London and by the end of the film they have explanations
for telekinesis, ghosts, race memories, race prejudice, similar
myths in different cultures, and a heck of a lot more.  The BBC
tv-play, shown at Seacon, was even better than the film and a little
less cryptic at times.  I cannot remember reading a novel as thought
provoking as this film.  The story was by Nigel Kneale, one of a
series of tv-plays he did revolving around a fictional rocket
scientist, Bernard Quatermass.

Incidently, while I have your attention, anyone out there know where
I can get a VHS copy of a very good and almost unknown science
fiction film called UNEARTHLY STRANGER.  It is quite a good science
fiction tale and done in black and white with no special effects at
all.  That is probably why it disappeared.  Watch for it, though.
It is really worth it.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF movies
Date: 21 Feb 85 04:19:54 GMT

callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:

>Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG?  Come on now!!

Sure, I remember it.  The scenes above ground were decent.  Then it
turned into a pretentious bore.  This *thing* won the hugo based on
Harlan Ellison's name, but if it has been written by Otto Schwartz
it would be really forgotten by now.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: More Bad Movies
Date: 21 Feb 85 04:35:51 GMT

>From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
>All this talk about bad SF films has reminded me of three films I
>saw (and thankfully, quickly forgot.)  Two of them I can't remember
>the titles for, but if anyone else saw them, perhaps they'll
>remember.
>
>1. "The Final Programme", based on one of Michael Moorcock's Jerry
>    Cornelius books.

This was known in the US as LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH and as THE
FINAL PROGRAMME in the UK.

>2.  "Triad(???)", was a big budget film, starring (I believe) Paul
>    Neuman.

This was Robert Altman's QUINTET, starring Paul Newman.

>3.  Title Unremembered - This one came out about the same time as
>    "Battle Beyond the Stars."  It was sort of an ALIEN ripoff; a
>    space ship lands on a planet to retrive a crystal (or
>    something).  The crew must make there way into a huge
>    pyramid/mountain.  In the caverns they meet their worst fears
>    come alive (i.e., the woman who has claustrophobia is crushed
>    in a palpitating cavern).  Worst scene: another of the women is
>    killed by her worst fear; she is raped by a giant snail (I kid
>    you not) that slimes off her clothes (for a flash of bare flesh
>    to wake the audience), and dies moaning.

Best known as GALAXY OF TERROR but also released under the titles
MINDWARP: AN INFINITY OF TERROR and PLANET OF HORRORS.  It was made
by New World Pictures in 1981, the same folks who made BATTLE BEYOND
THE STARS the previous year.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: uokvax!emjej@topaz
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 16 Feb 85 03:00:00 GMT

>My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars".  I have not seen
>this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female
>character who has quite large breasts.
>
>Any comments??

Yes...

1. Down here in darkest Oklahoma, we call it "John-Boy Saves the
   Universe," by virtue of its starring Richard Thomas.

2. When I saw it on NBC, they had the ill grace to black out certain
   portions of some scenes, so I can't vouch for the redeeming
   factor. (Darn it!)

        "Live fast, fight hard, and have a beautiful death..."
        James Jones

------------------------------

From: ctvax!rob@topaz
Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever
Date: 20 Feb 85 17:09:00 GMT

Another redeeming factor of 'Battle Beyond the Stars', aka 'The
Seven Aliens' and 'The Magnificent Seven Aliens' is the fact that
Robert Vaughn played the same character he played in the 'The
Magnificent Seven'.

Viewed as a parody, on the retelling of the 'Seven' story, I found
it amusing, but it was a long time ago that I saw it.

"I'll have what you're having. I want to get loaded too."

Rob Spray
...convex!ctvax!rob

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Re: Scarf issue.
Date: 19 Feb 85 13:34:32 GMT

I posted a rather unhelpful note on the trek network that tells
every piece of information available about the scarf.  The pattern
was in the last issue of the poorly named, "Whovian Times," and the
scarf should be anywhere from 12-20 feet.

As to those original Pertwees, many stations ran a different package
of only 14 out of the 24 adventures.  Then Lionheart conceived their
"Grand Master Plan," as I call it.  A number of stations in the
country just started all the Pertwees on precisely Jan. 1st.  This
is in an attempt to synchronise participating stations with the
eventual object of...

SHOWING THE HARTNELLS AND TROUGHTONS! <MODEST FANFARE, PLEASE>
That's right, folks, they've finally gotten round to it!
There's an unpleasant side of the coin, though.
* Colin Baker will not be seen on Public Television for a couple of
years, in which time they'll have a few seasons to show.
* The Davison package will inexplicably lose the "Caves of
Androzani," because it leads into a Doctor that isn't there, and
because Lionheart wants to edit the regeneration to make it more
obvious (Shades of Howard Da Silva...)  Hang on to your copies of
that one, folks.

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Re: Dr Who
Date: 19 Feb 85 13:47:17 GMT

The episode to which you are referring is in fact, "The Dalek Master
Plan."  It was a twelve parter with a 1 episode prequel that didn't
feature the Doctor.

What do you mean it's regained its chameleon ability?  That had best
not be permanent.  There was a huge letter writing campaign last
year against changing the familiar Police Box, which John
Nathan-Turner thought was better known than a real police box, and
thus subverting British history.  He finally promised it would never
change!

Somehow, it'll break down again, I'm sure, and we'll have that old
blue box again...  Or else I'll commit suicide like the officers of
the Australian Dr. Who fan club...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Feb 85 1311-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #69
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 24 Feb 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:

    Books - O'Donnell & Wilson (3 msgs) & Group Minds (5 msgs) &
            Secret Societies & Racial Memory,
    Television - Commander Cody & V,
    Miscellaneous - Space Burials (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 21:15 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel@umass-cs>
Subject: Kevin O'Donnell, Jr.

I spoke with him for a while at Boskone this past weekend, and
elicited a number of facts that should be of interest to those who
wrote the recent messages about his books:

  1) The fourth McGill Feighan (pronounced Fee-in) novel, "Cliffs",
      will be a Dec. 1985 publication from Berkley Books.  This is
      the fourth in a planned series of ten novels; O'Donnell has it
      all mapped out, so I'm sure we'll be meeting the Far Being
      Retzglaran before it's all over.

  2) The two novels published by Bantam, "Bandersnatch" (1979) and
      "War of Omission" (1982), are both officially out of print,
      and the rights have reverted to the author.  Unfortunately, no
      one has bought these rights.  Berkley has expressed some
      interest, but are quoting some silly policy about not
      reprinting books first printed by other companies until five
      years after the books have formally been declared out of
      print.  (Unfortunately, many companies leave a book as "out of
      stock" for months or years before getting around to admitting
      they're out of print, often to retain control over the rights,
      as they normally revert a set time after the out of print
      declaration.)  As both books were "in print" for approx. two
      years, it will be a while before they appear again.  I advise
      haunting the used book stores, though I understand that
      "Bandersnatch" is nigh- impossible to find.

  3) O'Donnell writes, on average, one book a year, and always
      writes one non-Feighan book between the Feighan books.  Due to
      the vagaries of the publishing business, this doesn't always
      appear to be so, but it is.  So it'll be a while before the
      series is done.  (Unlike some writers, O'Donnell needs to get
      away from his characters for a while between books.)

  4) K. M. O'Donnell, who wrote up until the early '70s, is a
      pseudonym for Barry Malzberg, and shouldn't be confused with
      Kevin O'Donnell, Jr.
                                                Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Wed 20 Feb 85 11:12:26-EST
From: Gary A Williams <SA.WILLI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #62

I have read most of the illuminati stuff except the schroedingers
cat series and the new series which I am desperately trying to find.
Conspiracy stuff is my major passion . as a Mason and Rosicrucian I
can tell you all that Wilson knows his stuff reading the trilogy and
cosmic trigger makes you want to run out and do research to find out
what some of his references allude to . also I would like to add to
the fuel on group minds the title of a Vonnegut novel VENUS ON THE
HALF SHELL which has some psuedonym for an author name great
giggleto read not quite sci-fi though .
                                                  THE UNSPELLABLE

------------------------------

From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack)
Date: 21 Feb 1985 1442-EST (Thursday)
Subject: Illuminati Game

        There is a game based on the Illuminati and in particular on
Wilson's books.  It is called _Illuminati!_ and it plus three
expansion sets are available from Steve Jackson Games (Austin,
Texas).  You should be able to find it in any gaming hobby shop.
        This game unlike most contains the spirit of the books as
well as the content.  The easy way to win is to cheat -- which is
supported by the rules; and it is fun and paranoid just like
Wilson's books.
        Its easy to learn and a good "beer and pretzel" game.
        If you like the books, you probably would like the game.

                                -- Chris Warack

"What do you mean the SCI-FI FANS are controlled by the
REPUBLICANS...?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 1985 12:04:48 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Illuminati-related books and Game

     If you're enjoying reading the Illuminatus books by Wilson (and
Shea), if it's the first series...), you should also check out "The
Illuminoids" by Neal Wilgus, an excellent non-fiction survey of the
groups that are described in the novels.  Also, you might want to
try and find a copy of "The Morning of the Magicians", by Pauwels
and deBergier.
     There is, indeed, an Illuminatus game.  It's not a spoof of the
books (though it does satirize reality, as the books do), but is
actually sanctioned by Wilson.  The game is produced by Steve
Jackson games, POB 18957, Austin, TX 78760.  It's very portable --
comes in a 1/2" x 3" x 6" box.  There are also two expansion kits
for it.
     It's an excellent game, which I highly recommend.  I'd suggest
that, if you're going to get it, go whole hog and get all three
sets, because the game becomes far more interesting.  Essentially,
each player (up to eight, though four or five is best) is one of the
major Illuminati groups -- The Bavarian Illuminati, the Bermuda
Triangle, the Discordian Society, the Gnomes of Zurich, the
"Network", the Servants of Chthulu, the Society of Assassins, and
the UFOs -- and is trying to control the world by taking over the
proper number of lesser groups.  Of course, each Illuminati group
also has a "secret" condition which brings victory -- the Gnomes
merely have to accumulate 150 MegaBucks, for instance -- just to
make things interesting.
      The game can be quite funny.  Jackson has an excellent sense
of humour, and clearly had a lot of fun deciding what groups would
be included.  Among others, there are: Cattle Mutilators, Clone
Arrangers, Convenience Stores, Fiendish Fluoridators, Flat Earthers,
Fnord Motor Company, Girlie Magazines, the Gun Lobby, the IRS, the
Post Office, the Mad Scientists, the Mafia, the Morticians,
Multinational Oil Companies, the Nephews of God, the Pentagon, the
Post Office, the Reformed Church of Satan, the Robot Sea Monsters,
S.M.O.F.  the Society for Creative Anarchism, and the Trekkies.  Not
to mention the infamous Orbital Mind Control Lasers. . .
      There is also a play-by-mail version of the game, but all
reports I've heard on this rate it as far less enjoyable than the
real, face-to-face version.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 1985  14:56 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Group Minds

        How about Gaea in Foundation's Edge?

I don't know, how about it...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 02:59:55 PST
From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: group minds

It's questionable whether it is a legitimate group mind, but here it
is anyway: "Mechanical Mice", by Maurice A. Hugi (Astounding,
anthologized in Famous Science-Fiction Stories: Adventures in Time
and Space).

                          ***SPOILER ON***
 This is about a "future viewer" which is incidental except that it
allows an inventor to build a machine which is analogous to a queen
bee.  Stopping it once it's built a swarm is what the story is
about.
                         ***SPOILER OFF***.

Try also "The Possessed", by Clarke (eg in his collection "The Nine
Billion Names of God").

> And to all you people in net land: I remember a short story (by
> Heinlein or Asimov?) that involved a starship manned by a
> multi-racial crew coming to evacuate Earth before Sol goes nova.
> A few of the crew were part of a group mind.  This was important
> when a landing party was trapped in a trans-Atlantic subway and
> cut off from radio communications.  Anyone know the author/title?

Try "Rescue Party", by Clarke (also in "The Nine Billion Names of
God").  See if this sounds right:

     "Last came one of the strange beings from the system of
Palador.  It was nameless, like all its kind, for it possessed no
identity of its own, being merely a mobile but still dependent cell
in the consciousness of its race.  [half a paragraph later] When a
creature of Palador spoke, the pronoun it used was always 'We'.
There was not, nor could there ever be, any first person singular in
the language of Palador.  [about a page later] In moments of crisis,
the single units comprising the Paladorian mind could link together
in an organization no less close than that of any physical brain.
At such moments they formed an intellect more powerful than any
other in the Universe."
                                        der Mouse
                ...ihnp4!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 85 11:42:02 PST (Wednesday)
From: Hallgren.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #62

The group mind Mark Maxson refers to is in THE WHOLE MAN by John
Brunner.  It is one of my favorite stories.  The "catapathic group"
(catalepsy and telepathy) could be found remotely by sensative
telepaths, but was usually found because it happened often to
overworked telepaths.  It seemed to me to be a prime candidate for a
movie adaption, but no takers.

Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 21 Feb 1985 08:02:36-PST
From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Rabbit, you're - you're
From: despicable!!)
Subject: Group Minds as a concept...

The concept of Group Minds was explored in an interesting manner in
Robert Heinlein's book "Methuselah's Children".  The Howard Families
(including good ol' Lazarus Long) happen upon this planet populated
with creatures who have group minds, about 30 bodies making up one
common mind.

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Group Mind stories
Date: 19 Feb 85 23:36:37 GMT

> From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks 223-9408)
>
>
> Another "Group Mind" story is "Encounter Near Venus", author
> forgotten, which I read in my youth. This is a juvenile, but
> an excellent one.

"Encounter Near Venus" is by Leonard Wibberley, author of "Ah,
Julian!", "Captain Treegate's War," and a few other good juvenile
books.  I think Wibberley is terrific.  "ENV" has a sequel too,
whose title I cannot recall.  Highly recommended.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 20 Feb 85 00:13:16-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: While we're talking about secret societies...

...don't forget W.A.S.T.E. in Pynchon's "The Crying of Lot 49".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:44 EST
From: Andrew D. Sigel <sigel@umass-cs>
Subject: Re: Racial memory

Zenna Henderson used racial memory in her human-like aliens The
People.  She wrote several novelettes and short stories about The
People, almost all of which were put into two novel-length
frameworks, and published as PILGRIMAGE (1961) and THE PEOPLE: NO
DIFFERENT FLESH (1967).  Both books are currently available from
Avon.
                                    Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Commander Cody  and Flash Gordon
Date: 18 Feb 85 17:45:29 GMT

>From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
>       Hey, out there in netland, do any of you remember the 50's
>TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I
>recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time.

        I watched one episode, my SF fan club shows such things from
time to time.  I thought it was rather silly, sort of like the old
movie serials. It was about this guy(a sort of Flash Gordon type)
who had this rocket suit who went about saving the Earth.  Of course
when it was produced this was not yet a cliche.

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)

{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}
   !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
 or
quad1!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 10:47 MST
From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: V Q & A

I like V.  There are few enough SF programs on TV as it is, probably
because we complain every time they put one on.

Every week when we watch V, we sit around and try to answer any
questions which pop up during the show (after we complain about them
for a while).  I thought I would let you in on some of our answers.

  1-Why are most of the Visitors wearing the Human makeup, even on
    the ship? That stuff probably takes hours to put on right, it
    is designed for long wear. So once they get it put on, they are
    in no hurry to repeat the process. (we haven't figured out yet
    how the resistance handles Willie's makeup when it gets damaged).

  2-Why are they still here? They don't like to lose, and nuking the
    planet is essentially giving up. (But Diana would have rather
    blown it up than leave, but since her commander 'bought the
    farm' she has obviously convinced higher-ups that they should
    stay)

  3-Why didn't Nathan Bates' bomb trigger work when he died? If I
    was them, the first thing I would do when I got him to a
    hospital under anesthetic would be call in the bomb squad and
    have him "defused".  They aren't total fools, even tho they
    can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside.

  4-Someone asked why we didn't use more 'red dust'. That was
    explained in the first show of the series. It has reached some
    critical mass in the environment and more would cause us
    problems (mutations, etc).

  5-Why are they attracted to the human form sexually? They are
    kinky and go in for the exotic. We may not be as repulsive to
    them as they are to us. I imagine the same could be said for the
    first European sailors to reach the orient. Think about it.

  6-Why did Diana get the body shave before the wedding? The human
    makeup has hair or it wouldn't look human. They may be kinky,
    but they probably prefer smooth 'plastic' to hairy 'plastic'.

All in all, the show is better than nothing.  If you don't like it,
don't watch it.  Any more questions and we will be happy to take a
look at them.

         The Theory Machine . . .              RNeal

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz (john)
Subject: Re: Space Burial
Date: 8 Feb 85 16:47:00 GMT

   According to the paper they will fit >10,000 "remains" into a 300
lb capsule (including capsule weight). That puts your average 150 lb
body down to less than .03 lbs. Talk about compression!

   The scary part is look at what history tells us about
civilizations that start spending significate portions of their GNP
on burials and gravestones.  They all seem to collapse shortly
after.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@topaz (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Space Burial
Date: 21 Feb 85 20:29:43 GMT

John Eaton writes:
>    The scary part is look at what history tells us about
> civilizations that start spending significate portions of their
> GNP on burials and gravestones.  They all seem to collapse shortly
> after.

        Is this really true?  The only civilization I can remember
that was notorious for spending a lot on graves was ancient Egypt.
And they stayed around for thousands of years; they were conquered
by Alexander the Great, later by Rome, later by Islam - all very
aggressive persons or organizations who conquered a whole lot
besides.  I don't see that they died of the weight of their supposed
pre-occupation with graves.

Regards,
Chris

Full-Name:  Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:    ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:   (201) 870-5853

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Feb 85 0322-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #70
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
     Administrivia - Temporary Moderator,
             Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Niven (2 msgs) &
                     Nebula Award Preliminary Nomination List &
                     Story Request & Future Bantam Releases &
                     Cherryh/Lee
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 85 03:16:49 EST
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Temporary Moderator

Hi all,
        Saul is at a conference in Calif. for the week and I'll be
moderating in his place (since most of you couldn't stand being
without SFL for a whole week :-).  Please excuse any slight
differences in our moderating styles.  Hope all goes well.

Enjoy,
ds

------------------------------

From: fluke!morgan@topaz (Bruce Eckel)
Subject: Re: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 20 Feb 85 22:26:49 GMT

In article <917@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:
>[]
>Here' an opinion/speculation that's bound to draw flames, flames,
>flames:
>
>I think Piers Anthony's writing has gone to pot. I believe his first
>published material was the "Battle Circle" trilogy (Sos, the Rope,
>...etc.)  which I thought was superb, fantastic, even swell. then
>came the O-O-O trilogy, good, great, super, but ..not quite as
>swell. From there its been all down hill with fantasy and
>mumbo-jumbo vaguenesses. He seems to be following the well worn
>track laid down by his forebears such as Newton and Herbert. I
>speculate it's easier to write that mystical trash because nothing
>has to synch, nothing has to be worked out in detail, logic is
>verboten, anything goes. I tried to keep reading anything Pier's
>wrote because of the level of his first six, but I couldn't keep up.
>He could grind out the progressively more mindless garbage faster
>than I could digest it. This transition wasn't overnight. Sure, the
>first Xanth book was clever and funny. Not like what had gone
>before, but passable. Still, the third? the seventeenth? ...
>
>"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg


Thank God! Finally someone who is as dissapointed with Piers Anthony
as I!  I made it through the first Xanth book with enjoyment, and
halfway through the second before I saw his creativity was used on
the first and he was just turning the crank.

But I see so many people reading all of his later books.  As I
someday hope to publish an SF novel myself, I wonder if I have lost
touch with the bulk of the readers.  I remember when I began reading
SF (in Junior High), anything was great.  This lasted quite a while,
but in my later years I have become selective.  Then very selective.
Then positively discriminating. Then prejudiced.  Hienlien (sp?), for
example, I suspect he went through some sort of spiritual experience
and then published "Stranger in a.." and all the books which followed
it, with identical structure, all the action happening in the first
third of the book and the remainder used as a vehicle for his new,
enlightened view of the world which I found Booooring.

Some authors go through this change and get a lot better.  I am
thinking of one in particular but can't remember his name.  Sorry.

Clifford Simak is consistently entertaining, but I always feel like I
know what to expect; as if he is following some very structured
writing formula he learned in college.

All the others.  I have read the "classics" (Asimov, et. al.)  but
they begin to run low.  As I get older and wiser, I suppose, I
demmand more from my authors.  Perhaps this sort of thing will
distance me from my (future?) readers, but perhaps it will also make
me a better writer.

The only writers I really admire today (i.e. would like to emulate in
some way) are Gene Wolfe (such strange imagery; what complex human
feelings from a science-fiction character), John Crowley (Little, Big
was really fantasy, I suppose, but the imagery and the vision of
(subtle, not prestitigitatious) magic was so strong for me), and
whoever wrote "Parsival, a knight's tale" and "the grail war."  These
people have style, subtlety and humor which touch my life so much
more than "...he gripped the rope in his teeth, grasped the nubile,
buxom maiden to his side while swinging across the yawning gorge and
fingering the stud on his blaster ..."

Perhaps in the process of changing my world view from the one where
the way to deal with a problem is through aggressiveness to one which
is so different I can't describe it but that's because I'm not there
yet and if I knew what it was it would spoil it anyway, I am changing
what information I can utilize in my world.  Seems simple now that
I've said it.

I promise shorter sentences in my books. ( :*) )


                Bruce Eckel
                John Fluke Manufacturing Co.
                Everett, WA

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: Re: Piers Anthony *SEMI-SPOILER*
Date: 22 Feb 85 00:57:34 GMT



>
> P.S. Does anybody like Anne McCaffrey ??? Eddings ???  Frank
>      Herbert ???  PLEASE write something.  Don't be afraid to ask
>      questions either. Just write something about them.

I've read most, if not all of the "novels" put out by each one of
them.  Herbert is still my favorite out of McCaffrey, Eddings, and
Herbert, although, there are a few works by Herbert I did not really
enjoy. Godmakers is probably one of those.  Besides Dune, one of my
favorite is The Dosadi(sp?) Experiment.  Of McCaffrey's novels, the
ones I liked the least were the Dragonsinger's series.  Dragon-riders
was passable along with Moreth.  Her non-serialized works, are on the
whole, pretty good.  Eddings was good at the beginning of his
Belgariad series because of the freshness, but seemed to go down hill
a bit in Endgame.

I've read many of the Pier's Anthony books too and I think that Bio
of a Space Tyrant has got to be his worst (in my opinion that is).
If I had been a slower reader, I would have passed away somewhere in
the middle I'm sure.  As it was, I barely survived to the end of vol.
1.

-eli

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eli Liang  ---
    University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
    ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep  CSNET: liang@cvl
    UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters (pseudo-spoiler)
Date: 21 Feb 85 01:08:59 GMT

You mean it isn't obvious what happened to Beowulf Schaeffer?  Come
on, think about it.  Obviously on one of his adventures he fell
between the inner and outer event horizons of a black hole and was
projected a few thousand years into the future, to a time shortly
before the Core explosion reached Earth.  Landing on an Earth
entirely poulated by Teelas, he was immediately shanghaied into yet
another adventure that netted a gigantic stasis field generator, high
quantum, large enough to envelop the entire solar system (a product
of the technology of the race that created the Paks).  A ship was
positioned on the far side of the solar system from the core with a
time-release stasis field neutralizer.  The stasis field was
activated a year before the first radiation hit Earth.  Thus all the
Teelas and Beowulf Schaeffer were insulated from the effects, and
after the brunt had passed the ship neutralized the stasis field.
Gosh, how lucky for the Teelas that the only man who could have saved
them turned up at the appropriate moment.  They gave their greatest
tribute to Beowulf, said tribute being jumping out of an airplane
without a parachute.  Unfortunately, they didn't realize that without
the luck gene, circumstances would not conspire to save him, and the
galaxy's greatest hero wound up only half a millimeter thick.  So
much for greatness.

Stay tuned.  Next time, we find out what happened to Serge Ortega,
the six-armed walrus-snake, and his pet rabbit Bunky.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center
ARPA:   Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K    uucp:   seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:     74176,1360      audio:  shout "Hey, Tim!"

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are
but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which
remains."  Liber AL, II:9.

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Niven's Characters
Date: 18 Feb 85 19:47:08 GMT

Actually, despite the overwhelming evidence that Louis Wu is the son
of Beowulf Shaeffer (well, biologically his father must be Carlos
Wu), Niven is adamant that Louis Wu has never even heard of Bey.
(See "Ringworld.")  I can't even speculate why Niven decided to do it
that way, but he IS the author, after all...

I suppose that if, in Known Space, one takes the name of one's
biological father rather than the man one's mother is married to,
there must be thousands of Wus knocking around by the time of
"Ringworld."  Carlos Wu had an UNLIMITED Birthright License.

Bonus trivia question: We all know who Beowulf Shaeffer is.  What
Niven characters had middle names Launcelot and Gilgamesh?  (Answers
rot13 after my signature.)

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

Answers:  Yhpnf Ynhaprybg Tneare naq Tvyoreg Tvytnzrfu Unzvygba.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 85 22:59:14 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Nebula Award preliminary nomination list

This information is from LOCUS #289, which also has the LOCUS Poll,
Recommended Reading for 1984, etc.  (I see where the net's own Jerry
Boyajian has a non-fiction book (with Kenneth Johnson) on the
recommended reading list, INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES
1983...)  Here are the top 25 preliminary nominees for best novel, in
order by number of nominations from most to least:

        NEUROMANCER, William Gibson
        THEM BONES, Howard Waldrop
        THE WILD SHORE, Kim Stanley Robinson
        WORLD'S END, Joan Vinge
        THE MAN WHO MELTED, Jack Dann
        EMERGENCE, David R. Palmer
        GREEN EYES, Lucius Shepard
        NATIVE TONGUE, Suzette Haden Elgin
        ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS, Gregory Benford
        CLAY'S ARK, Octavia Butler
        JOB, Robert A. Heinlein
        THE MAN IN THE TREE, Damon Knight
        THE BUSINESSMAN, Thomas M. Disch
        CARDS OF GRIEF, Jane Yolen
        THE BRANCH, Mike Resnick
        THE GOLDEN GROVE, Nancy Kress
        HEECHEE RENDEZVOUS, Frederik Pohl
        PALIMPSESTS, Scholz and Harcourt
        STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND, Samuel R. Delany
        STEAM BIRD, Hilbert Schenck
        DAMIANO, R. A. MacAvoy  (I used the initials this time!)
        DEMON, John Varley
        FRONTERA, Lewis Shiner
        THE CEREMONIES, T. E. D. Klein
        GODS OF THE GREATAWAY, Michael Coney

Haven't read all these yet,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

PS -- LOCUS Publications, PO Box 13305, Oakland CA 94661; $24/year,
$26 Canada.

------------------------------

Subject: Story Request
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 10:50:38 EST
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

Apropos of a story which appeared in the mid-70's in Analog: "The
Raven and the Hawk," by (I believe) William Rotsler.  Anybody know if
this was ever collected, if any other stories were written in the
same vein, etc?  Reply to ME, please, not the net.  (Note: I *have*
the story, I'm just interested in its subsequent history.)

    -- Martin@YALE.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu 21 Feb 85 11:34:04-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Future Bantam list

Bantam is increasing the visiblity of its science fiction/fantasy
line with more advertising and an new logo.  The line will now be
called SPECTRA books.  The line is introduced in multiple page color
ads in Publishers Weekly, Feb 8, 1985.  After touting their success
with previous books such as WEST OF EDEN, STARTIDE RISING, TEA WITH
THE BLACK DRAGON, VALENTINE PONTIFIX, BELOVED EXILE, they announce
the following Summer/Fall list.

Harlan Ellison, editor MEDEA: HARLAN'S WORLD.  a dozen of the field's
most honored talents share in the creation of a remarkable planet.
June Trade Paperback $10.95

Norman Spinrad.  CHILD OF FORTUNE. The star-flung odyssey of a young
woman through the heights and depths of an exotic interstellar
culture.  August Hardcover $16.95

Parke Godwin.  THE LAST RAINBOW.  July Trade Paperback $6.95
               BELOVIED EXILE.   June Mass Market $3.95

James Hogan.  THE PROTEUS OPERATION.  A commando team sent back in
time to prevent Hitler's victory in WWII.  October Hardcover $16.95

Lisa Goldstein.  THE DREAM YEARS.  A stunning tour-de-force of
fantasy of a young Surrealist of the 1920's and a woman from the 1968
Paris Riots who cross time to discover love and hope in a visionary
future.  September Hardcover $14.95

David Brin.  THE POSTMAN.  A major novel of one man's determination
to rebuild America from the ashes of a devastating war.  November
Hardcover $14.95
             THE UPLIFT WAR.  The saga of the Progenitors begun in
Sundiver and Startide Rising continues in this exciting tale of a
planet resisting invastion.  December Mass Market $3.50

Samuel R. Delany.  THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES; OF CITIES.  The
concluding volume of the acclaimed science fiction epic begun in
Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand.  December Hardcover $16.95
         STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND.  September Mass
Market $3.95

Harry Harrison.  WEST OF EDEN.  Last year's hardback bestseller...
July Mass Market $3.95
         A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN.  At last! the
never-before-published origin of the 25th Century's most lovable
conman-turned-counterspy: "Slippery Jim" DiGriz.  October Mass Market
$2.95

R. A. Macavoy.  THE BOOK OF KELLS.  A magnificent story of a young
artist transported to Tenth Century Ireland by the award-winning
author of TEA ... and the Damiano trilogy.  August Mass Market $3.50

Pamela Sargent.  VENUS OF DREAMS.  Beginning a generation-spanning sf
epic of the struggle to colonize the planet Venus.  October Mass
Market $3.95

Robert Silverberg.  GILGAMESH THE KING.  November Mass Market $3.95

Warren Norwood.  POLAR FLEET.  June Mass Market $2.95

Somtow Sucharitkul.  THE DARKLING WIND.  A towering saga of the end
of a millenia-old galactic empire.  July Mass Market $3.50

Elizabeth Scarborough.  THE CHRISTENING QUEST.  The latest
light-hearted fantasy in the bestselling Chronicles of Argonia.
August Mass Market $2.95

David R. Palmer.  THRESHOLD.  Beginning a dazzling far-future epic of
humanity's struggle to preserve itself against a deadly cosmic force.
November Mas Market $2.95


Bantam books typically arrive in CA about the second week of the
preceeding month.  IE the March books arrived in the second week of
Feb.

Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA.

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang)
Subject: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 22 Feb 85 01:09:36 GMT

How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's
stuff or Tanith Lee's works?  I liked Cherryh's Downbelow Station a
lot and much of Tanith Lee's wierder stories.  A friend of mine
however won't read any of that stuff on first principles.  To
paraphrase him, "after all, how many really good female SF authors do
you know?"  I personally think that the number is certainly
substantial.  I guess a lot of female SF writers though are still
suffering from prejudices such as this and find that they must hide
behind names which are patently male or gender non-specific.  Cases
in point are C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton.

-eli

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eli Liang  ---
    University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
    ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep  CSNET: liang@cvl
    UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Feb 85 0341-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #71
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 26 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:
                Books - Title Request & Niven (2 msgs) &
                        Chalker (3 msgs) & King,
        Miscellaneous - Science Fiction Book Club (4 msgs) &
                        Con Observation,
           Television - Blake's 7 and Sapphire and Steel
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Title request
Date: 19 Feb 85 17:11:43 GMT

I received this title request and I'm stumped.  If you know the
answer, send it to Dave:

Re:  Here's a short story plot, can anybody name the title/author?

Plot: This is a alternate future story, the narrator's present is one
in which cars have been replaced by trolley's.  Lots of trolleys.
They run all over the country -- lots of transportation substance
without the ego/ownership thing.  The narrator is on one for at least
part of the tale.  He slips in and out of (dreams?) the other future
(ours) where gasoline powered machines have ruined the environment.
There are some crazies in his alternate/present that drive
(illeggasoline cars.
..... that's about all that I remember, except a vauge feeling that
the turning point between the futures was identified.  Ring any bells
anybody?

(In real life: Dave Weininger)

UUCP:   {ihnp4,seismo,allegra}!scgvaxd!muddcs!MedChem!Dave
ARPA:   muddcs!MedChem!Dave@ucla-cs

------------------------------

From: uiucdcs!mcewan@topaz
Subject: Re: re: Niven' characters
Date: 22 Feb 85 04:08:00 GMT

>>"Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. The
>>former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars Louis
>>Wu...
>>
>>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)
>
>Well, you're almost right.  It was Louis's father,
>Carlos Wu.

In my copy of "Tales of Known Space" it's Louis. The only story I've
ever read featuring Carlos Wu is "The Borderland of Sol".

                        Scott McEwan
                        {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan

"Uh oh. Looks like we got a 666 down there - deity on a rampage."

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann)
Subject: Re: Niven
Date: 21 Feb 85 17:33:43 GMT



     I seem to remember in Ringworld Engineers that the warrior Teela
was going around with (he had taken a massive does of youth drug and
was around the right age when he took it) died when they found the
chamber with hte tree of life root in it because he was too old.
Apparently, you only get one shot and taking the youth drugs (what he
took wasn't booster spice but a derivative of tree of life root)
doesn't allow you survive the change.

M. McCann

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 12:43:23-PST
From: feldman%bartok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Geoff Feldman HL02-3E09
From: 225-6023)
Subject: Well World, OBIE

My vote is "Object Based Intelligent Engine" As a twentieth century
AI developer, thats what OBIE was, although OBJECT is in Caps in this
case in that this computer dealt with objects in a more literal sense
than todays machines.

I wont defend this choice in terms of the story, its unfounded.  But
I had fun thinking of it.

                                        ---Geoff

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Re: Obie
Date: 14 Feb 85 03:33:11 GMT

In article <603@topaz.ARPA> @RUTGERS.ARPA:SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA writes:
>From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
>

>Anybody know the origin of the name "Obie" in Jack Chalker's Well
>World books?  He (Obie) claims at one point "My name is actually an
>acronym but the words are so out of date that they have lost their
>meaning."  Ideas, anybody?


....I don't know the book in question but the only acronym I
could think of to fit "Obie" is "O.B.E." - Order of the British
Empire.                 greg.

--
Gregory Rawlins CS Dept.,U.Waterloo,Waterloo,Ont.N2L3G1 (519)884-3852
gjerawlins%watdaisy@waterloo.csnet                              CSNET
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins   UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 85 08:01 PST
From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #58

What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the
"Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and another
series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore yesterday, and I
am curious if they are any good.

Also, has anyone read Farmer's "Dayworld"?

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu 21 Feb 85 11:05:47-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Richard Bachman

From the ABA Newswire  Feb 18, 1985

New American Library confirmed last week that Stephen King is the
author of THINNER, a hardcover NAL book written under the pseudonym
of Richard Bachman and published last December.  As Bachman, Stephen
King also wrote RAGE (1977), THE LONG WALK (1979), ROADWORK (1981)
and THE RUNNING MAN (1982), each a paperback published originally by
Signet.  The latter titles are out of print, but will be re-released
by NAL under the Plume imprint as a trade paperback omnibus edition,
with a new introduction by King.

Although THINNER was also recently unavailable, a third printing came
off the press last Friday, Feb 15.  NAL has produced window posters,
in-store signs, and counter displays indicating "Stephen King writes
as Richard Bachman" and is the author of THINNER.  These
point-of-purchase materials are now also available from NAL.

[this just shows that the sellablity of a book is the name of the
author, not the quality of the book.  If King was famous for the
quality of his writing, then the five Bachman books should have made
Bachman also famous.]

Randy.

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!nairb@topaz (b. enke)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 19 Feb 85 23:45:51 GMT

> I have to agree. I belonged to the book club briefly back in the
> early '60s, and joined again about 2-3 years ago. I've purchased
> very few books since rejoining, and recently got a form letter
> asking why I hadn't purchased any books recently, and did I still
> want to be on their mailing list?
>
> Typical recent offerings include every Stephen King book ever
> written, Star Trek and Star Wars novelizations, a fictional
> account of a Third World War by a retired military officer, and
> (as the above writer points out) VERY few hot new titles. The
> quality of the books themselves is mediocre: cheap paper,
> inexpensive binding, many typos in the text. I've decided to buy
> titles I'm interested in at my local bookstore in quality
> hardcover editions, and hang the SF Book Club membership. I can't
> really recommend this book club to anyone.

Although I am not totally satisfied with this book club, I still
have to completely disagree with about everything you've stated.

I also joined about 2-3 years ago, but I've purchased a lot of books
and have been completely satisfied with them.  As far as Stephen
King, Star Trek, Star Wars, and WWIII are concerned, you forgot Dune
and the Hitchhiker series.  All of these books are heavily demanded
right now, so isn't it just common business sense to offer what the
public wants?

I just can't believe what you stated about the quality of the books.
I haven't purchased a single book yet that I have thought was
cheaply produced.  In fact, I've bought several from major
bookstores that were much more cheaply made.  Not many typos either.

As far as hot new titles is concerned, they do offer MANY, but not
as many as you could find in a bookstore.

What dissatisfies me is their billing policies.  They made a couple
of mistakes on my account, and they occasionally sent me books that
I didn't order (they did take them right back, though, minus
postage).

I guess that overall, I would recommend the club.  My membership has
expired, and I plan to rejoin.

------------------------------

From: nmtvax!knight@topaz
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Book Club
Date: 19 Feb 85 03:18:30 GMT
Reply-to: knight@nmtvax.UUCP (Bob Knight)

I, too, like the SF Book Club a lot.  I've been with them for over 15
years now, and have no complaints except, possibly, for the paucity
of selections available in their monthly blurbs.  However, I've found
that you can go to the teasers they send for new members and order
books from there on your monthly chits and win with no complaints
from them.

Another point: they are the type of club that requires you to send an
announcement back saying "nay" on the monthly selections to not get
them.  A friend of mine said "I'm too lazy/absentminded to keep up
with this" and asked them to change him to a mode where he could
order at his leisure (he still received the monthly notices.)  They
immediately, with no hassle what- soever, changed him to that mode -
and the announcements he received were the same as mine.

All in all, I second the recommendation for them.  A breath of fresh
air in the (in my opinion, lest I get flamed) sordid world of clubs
of various ilks.

Bob

"Yngvi is a louse!"

------------------------------

From: inuxd!keen@topaz (D Keen)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 20 Feb 85 16:21:18 GMT

<Is this really here, or is it only your imagination?>

Count this as another positive vote for the SFBC.  I have belonged
for more than 20 years or 150-175 books depending on ones viewpoint.
Granted that I was much happier paying $1.49 per book than the
current rate, it is still a bargain if one is fairly heavily addicted
to reading and owning science fiction and/or fantasy.  It provides a
needed niche for those books that one wants to keep for long periods
without serious deterioration, but that do not qualify for full
hardback purchase price.  This assumes that one has some limit to
your budget and that you are in the 75+ per year book purchase range.

Concerning quality of choice, I agree that the probability of
acquiring an excellent original published work from the club is much
smaller than it was 10 years ago, but I think this is inevitable
given the current higher acceptance from the regular publishing
houses of the SF&F genre.  I also do not find significantly lower
physical or typesetting quality in the book club editions than normal
editions; maybe I have been lucky.

Finally, upon request, the club will allow you to change to an order
only relationship; that is, you will only be sent books which you
have requested, rather than all books which you did not reject.  This
can save a lot of hassle.

Good reading
Don Keen
AT&T-CP (Any relationship between AT&T and science fiction is
         purely coincidental as is any relationship between my
         views and theirs.)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 1985 12:52:07-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: SF book club....

Wilson Harris (harris@nrl-aic) writes the following, concerning the
SF book club:


> my membership does not require returning the monthly announcement
> if I do not want any books.  If I do nothing, no books are sent.
> It's only when I check off or list books on the form do they send
> me anything.


Thanks! I stand corrected.

                                     ---  Jeff Rogers
                                          jcr@Mitre-Bedford

------------------------------

From: chabot%amber.DEC@topaz (l s chabot)
Subject: "...I just read the stuff"
Date: 20 Feb 85 16:30:44 GMT

Remember last September?

Well, I just got back from Boskone XXII (the Green Line is *Slow*),
and I was struck by an observation: many, many fans are *people*.  It
didn't really hit me until I got home and I noticed the contrast
between the flat characters confined to line fragments imprinted on
paper in the many little rectangles packed into my rectangle shelves,
and the three dimensional people that had bustled about me at the
con.  True, there were some of those flat characters at the con too
and you could _buy_ *them*, but you couldn't fill all the elevators
with them.

Has anybody else noticed this also, too?

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: net.tv.bbc/ Blake's 7 and Sapphire and Steel
Date: 20 Feb 85 19:11:12 GMT

Were I able to discourse about any British T.V. program, my two
favorites not discussed here on net.tv.drwho would be "Blake's 7"
and "Sapphire and Steel."  To avoid numerous "What is" notes, I will
explain in the least SPOILER way I can about them...

Blake's 7: In this interesting story, a group of prison convicts
escape and take over an alien spaceship which proves to be their
salvation.  They are led (Sort of) by Roj Blake, who leads them,
reluctant, into battle with the Galactic Federation.  The central
focus of the story is the conflict between the elements of the group
who just want to leave Blake behind and take over the ship to carry
on criminal activities, and those who really want to destroy the
semi-evil federation, led by Servalan. (It has been said that if
Servalan and Darth Vader were in the same galaxy, he would end up
working for HER.)  The actress and actor who play the major
characters Servalan and Avon (A man, not a makeup company) appear on
Doctor Who in "The Two Doctors," and "Mark of the Rani,"
respectively.  Paul Darrow, who plays Avon, also appeared in the
"Silurians" classic as Capt. Hawkins.  Blake's 7 is highly dramatic,
ending each season on a cliffhanger and killing off regular
characters with great ease.  Unlike most science fiction series, it
ends- dramatically and finally.  It was founded and (at first)
entirely written by Terry Nation.  Then other authors took over.
Dr. Who director David Maloney (Talons of Weng Chiang, Deadly
Assasin, and others) produced from the second season on, and Dr. Who
writer Chris Boucher, (Face of Evil, Robots of Death, Image of the
Fendahl) script-edited.

Sapphire and Steel: A very tense, mature show about ghosts.  (Can't
get more mature than a ghost, can you?)  Sapphire (A woman) and
Steel (A man) are assigned to Earth because time, greedy and trying
to break into the physical world, is sending ghosts into our time
zone.  Unfortunately, this show didn't last more than three seasons
because often it was pitted against Dr. Who reruns, and thus
suffered the fate of "Buck Rogers," "Man from Atlantis," and others
pitted against Dr. Who on ITV.  Nothing can compete with the Doctor!
Like Blake's 7, this show ENDS, dramatically.

Both these shows were pedalled over here by Lionheart and earlier
Time-Life, before they stopped handling Dr. Who and before it was a
success (Dr. Who, I mean) Lionheart thought they'd have better luck,
seeing as Dr. Who was such a runaway success, but it seems not.
Perhaps stations are spending so much $ on Dr. Who that they can't
afford anything else.  (Whatever happened to K9 and Company,
anyway?)

Charles Kupperman,
"A long-shanked rascal with a mighty nose."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Feb 85 0731-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #72
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Feb 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
                    Books - Illuminatus & Trumps of Doom &
                            Cherryh & Hodgell,
                   Movies - Saxon &
                            Five Million Years To Earth &
                            Star Trek IV &
                            Best and Worst SF Films (3 msgs),
               Television - Prisoner &
                            D. Adams on Late Nite,
            Miscellaneous - Wanted Address to L.K.Turner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Other Illuminatus Books
Date: 21 Feb 85 23:14:28 GMT

In article <261@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
writes:

>       ...             Wilson is
>incredibly gullible, believing in (for example) Uri Geller's psychic
>powers and intervention in Earth history by aliens from Sirius.
        Or else he simply has fooled you with a better "willing
        suspension of disbelief" than you expect.

>       He also has an
>       ...             He is a dabbler,
>not an expert, when it comes to Magick, and as such his views on the
>subject must be viewed with extreme skepticism.
        which is more or less the view suggested by Crowley on his
        own stuff.  What the hell, his views make at least as much
        sense as Billy Graham's.

        By the way, my direct path to you has ceased to work, I
        think.  If you can figure a new path (assuming you actually
        see this), let me know.
>-=-
>Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center
>ARPA:  Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K    uucp:   seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
>CompuServe:    74176,1360      audio:  shout "Hey, Tim!"
>
>"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows
>are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which
>remains."  Liber AL, II:9.

--
                Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated.

                                Charlie Martin
                                (...mcnc!duke!crm)

                "I am not a number, I'm a free variable!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri 22 Feb 85 23:15:01-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Trumps of Doom

Will there be a "special limited edition", ie an edition which will
probably not disintegrate on re-reading?

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: uiucdcs!friedman@topaz
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh books
Date: 22 Feb 85 14:42:00 GMT



A couple of people have given list of C. J. Cherryh's books, but have
not noted that these two:
Port Eternity                   82
Forty Thousand in Gehanna       84

are set in the same universe as these:
Downbelow Station               81
Merchanter's Luck               82

PE and FTiG aren't as closely related as are DS and ML, but they do
belong together.  If you're reading them in order, read DS and ML
before the other two.  Also, while I'd classify DS and ML as "hard"
SF, PE is much more...  well, I'll say exotic...than the other two,
and FTiG is somewhere in between.

Incidentally, she has written a short story or two set in this
universe, also.  I just read "The Scapegoat", which has a surprising
ending (at least, I was surprised; I began to guess at it only a few
pages from the end).  It's in a new book, a collection of 3 short
stories called "Alien Stars", edited by Elizabeth Mitchell; the other
two stories are by Joe Haldeman and Timothy Zahn (I haven't read
those two yet).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 03:00:18 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin    )

I was rather disapointed by Hodgell's novel `Godstalk'.  After
finishing it I felt I had been ripped-off.  In the hands of a more
experienced author, this could have been an excellent novel.

The natural comparison is with Andre Norton's `Breed to Come', which
is everything `Godstalk' might have been.

                                        Steve

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: "Genesis II" and John Saxon....
Date: 22 Feb 85 17:52:29 GMT

REFERENCES:  <732@topaz.ARPA>


> The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the
> occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad). The
> first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_ and a
> third one that I can't remember the name of.

Genesis II (1973)
Planet Earth (1974)
Strange New World (1975)
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-spoiler)
Date: 22 Feb 85 16:37:58 GMT

Somebody on the net asked me to give a synopsis of this film, which I
have called the best science fiction film I have ever seen.  Some of
the parts of the film are a bit crypt, but are clearer in the play
which was shown at Seacon and is available in paperback.  Here goes:

FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (Brit. QUATERMASS AND THE PIT) Hammer
films 1968, Dir. by Roy Ward Baker. Scr by Nigel Kneale based on his
tv-play "Quatermass and the Pit."  Cast: Andrew Kier (Bernard
Quatermass), James Donald (Dr. Matthew Roney), Barbara Shelley
(Barbara Judd).

London Transit is digging a subway tunnel at Hobbs End.  They find
fossils of man's early ancestors.  Dr. Matthew Roney is called in to
investigate the fossils and in the process finds a large craft buried
in the ground near the five million year old fossils.  Thinking that
what was found might be a German V-weapon, they call in Col. Breen, a
former expert on enemy missiles and now in the process of taking over
Quatermass's rocket group.  Quatermass, driven by curiosity, goes
with Breen to the site of the excavations and realizes that if the
fossils are 5 million years old, so is the craft.  Hobbs end has been
known from time immemorial, it turns out, for weird supernatural
events, particularly when the earth has been disturbed.

The army, with much trouble, is able to bore a hole into the inner
chamber found in the craft, and inside they find insect-like
inhabitants.  Quatermass theorizes that they are from Mars and that
they had altered the apes whose fossils were found into evolving
toward intelligent humans.  A driller hired by the army to open the
craft is removing his equipment when he seems possessed by some
force.  He runs mindlessly through the streets causing telekinetic
destruction and takes refuge in a churchyard.  Quatermass is called
in by the vicar and hears the driller babbling about seeing scenes of
another world.  His description seems to be of a race purge of
mutants.  Quatermass theorizes that the telekinetic powers and the
hatred of anyone different were invested in us by the aliens and were
always with us more or less dormant.  The craft has the power to
reawaken them in us.

Quatermass together with Roney rig up a device to record his mental
images and Quatermass tries to repeat the drillers actions so the
ship will have the same effect on him.  Instead the craft takes over
Roney's assistant and Quatermass records her mental images.  The
minister of defense, angered by Quatermass earlier telling the press
that the craft might have been of alien design, calls Quatermass in
on the carpet.  He shows them the pictures he has recorded from the
assistant's mind of a mutant hunt.  They are unconvinced, believing
Breen's explanation that the craft is German.  The minister opens the
craft site to the press.

The night that the press is running a tv show from the craft site, a
man setting up lighting in the craft slips and somehow reactivates
the craft fully.  The vast majority of London is taken over to become
mindless telekinetics bent on wiping out anything that might be a
variation in the human genetic strain.  Quatermass himself become
part of the hunt.  Roney is among the very few who are immune to the
mental control exerted by the capsule.  Seeing Quatermass in the
crowd he pulls him out and with a great deal of effort, gets
Quatermass's mind working again.  The capsule which has now turned
London into effectively a alien colony.  Exerting this effort it is
turning its own mass into energy.  The broadcast energy forms a
column with the capsule changes into the satan-like shape of a alien.
Roney realizes that the nature of the energy column is electrical.
He reasons that the legends of the Devil's enemy being iron had a
basis in fact.  These alien images that used to be interpretted as
ghosts and demons are electrical and people holding iron swords
grounded them out.

Roney sees a large crane by the capsule site, and his assistant being
carried by the crowd.  He sends Quatermass to grab the assistant and
also to get him out of the way.  He climbs the crane and swings it
into the column of energy, electricuting himself but grounding out
the column.  The instant the column is grounded, the alien mental
control ends and things start returning to normal.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 1985 20:52:09 PST
Subject: ST IV
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA>



Everyone is way off the mark on what the next Star Trek Movie will be
about.  This is what will happen:

        1. They will team up with a mean looking Klingon who is really
           an OK guy, but intimdates everyone (remember the Klingons
           now have a bone down the top of their heads which sort
           of resemble a Mohawk).

        2. McCoy decides he LIKES being thought of as crazy, for one
           thing he gets free room and board.  The others keep
           breaking him out of the Loony Bin whenever they need him
           for something.

        3. Sulu starts dressing up alot and becomes real good at
           being your standard con man type.

        4. Kirk starts smoking cigars, and keeps saying "I love it
           when a plan comes together."

        5. The whole Star Trek crew (except for Uhura, who's part
           in stealing the Enterprise remains undiscovered) are
           all wanted men, and decide to hire themselves out
           for protection and blowing things up, and...

        YES, ITS STAR TREK IV:   THE "B" (movie) TEAM

(a standard effect will be starships which hit an asteroid, flip
over, and crash, then the crew all climb out and escape right before
they blow up in a ball of fire...)


                                Alan

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: best science fiction films
Date: 23 Feb 85 02:58:46 GMT

From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
> We have had some fun discussing the worst SF films, but the
> challenge still stands, to name the best SF films. I find that a
> hard challenge, and would like to take a little time to explain why
> . . . . . The result (according to one biased observer):
>
>       Fritz Lang : Metropolis (1926)
>
>       Frank Capra : Lost Horizon (1937)
>
>       Rudolph Mate' : When Worlds Collide (1951)  -- (for the 40's)
>
>       Fred McLeod Wilcox : Forbidden Planet (1956)
>
>       Roger Vadim : Barbarella (1967)
>
> Here I stop, being able neither to ignore "2001"
> nor to accept it.
>
> Robert Firth

Ok, I agree with Metropolis and Forbidden Planet, and maybe When
Worlds Collide (having only read the book), but to leave out 2001,
The Day the Earth Stood Still, and to include Barbarella?  Even
leaving out considerations of quality, Barbarella was more a fantasy
than science fiction.
--

                                           John L. Templer
                                     University of Texas at Austin

    {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

                 "Gongo Bunnies movin' in,

------------------------------

From: ratex!mck@topaz (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan)
Subject: Best and Worst SF Films
Date: 23 Feb 85 04:20:59 GMT



     Well, here are my opinions [And the cry issues forth: 'WHO
CARES!!']:

     The best movie that I've ever seen (SF or otherwise) is *Blade
Runner*.
     It should be seen in a good theater to be properly appreciated
(the time that I saw it in a cheap threater from a print with breaks,
and that I saw it on video-tape were both awful disappointments).  It
develops a world-view which is unrelentingly bleak -- until the
climax of the confrontation between Derrick and Batty, when, from the
despair and horror, a message of great beauty emerges.

     Now, I've seen *Plan 9 from Outer Space*, *They Saved Hitler's
Brain*, and *The Man with the Synthetic Brain*; these are all bad
movies (the two *Brain* movies involved splicing additional footage
-- obviously filmed some time after the main footage -- does anybody
out there have details about this?).  But a far worse film is *The
Creeping Terror*; I've only seen short excerpts, but they were
god-awful.  Larry Cipriani has seen the whole movie (as an
existential experience I guess) and he assures me that the excerpts
are representative and that *Terror* is far worse than *Plan 9*.

[And the cry issues forth: WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!]

                                        DKMcK

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz
Subject: Re: SF movies (ZARDOZ)
Date: 23 Feb 85 02:45:00 GMT



/**** ccvaxa:net.sf-lovers / leeper@ahuta / 11:19 pm Feb 20, 1985
****/
 >Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG?  Come on now!!
 >Gaylene
 >
Sure, I remember it.  The scenes above ground were decent.  Then it
turned into a pretentious bore.  This *thing* won the hugo based on
Harlan Ellison's name, but if it has been written by Otto Schwartz it
would be really forgotten by now.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper
/* ---------- */

Oh, I don't know. Even Michael Moorcock's name couldn't rescue *The
Last Days of Man on Earth* (based on *Breakfast in the Ruins*). Now
that was an absolutely awful movie.

"When you are about to die, a wombat is better than no company at
all."
                            Roger Zelazney, *Doorways in the Sand*

                                             Wombat
                                     ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle)
Subject: Prisoner Appreciation Society
Date: 22 Feb 85 16:29:25 GMT

An address for the Prisoner Appreciation Society was announced after
last night's episode.  This is what I copied down (it might even be
right):

        Prisoner Appreciation Society
        "6 of One"
        P. O. Box 66
        Ipswitch IP2 9TZ
        England

And, no, I don't know what they will do to you if you contact them.

           === Guy Riddle == AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey ===
                          ggr.btl@csnet-relay.ARPA
                                   ihnp4!ggr

------------------------------

From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight)
Subject: Late nite with nothing
Date: 22 Feb 85 06:57:52 GMT

        Someone said that Douglas Adams was going to appear on
Thursdays Late Night with David Letterman.  Well, he didn't!  (That
is, he wasn't on Thurs. Feb 21st.)
        Now I suppose all sorts of people will inform me that it was
last Thursday's show.  To head off this type of response I'll just
gripe that the person who submitted the article should have stated
Thursday Feb. xx instead of just Thursday.

------------------------------

From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight)
Subject: To L.K.Turner
Date: 20 Feb 85 14:05:04 GMT

>   I would like to poll the views of all you out in net land, with
> the aim of summarising the results, to find out what the collective
> view on this is.
>   So if you are interested send your votes to me via mail to :-
>   ...mcvax!ukc!lkt
>   == L.K.T

        I can't figure out how to mail to mcvax.  Is there some
"popular" machine (like decvax or ihnp4 or ucbvax etc...) that I can
reach you through?
                               D. Bartholomew
UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs  }!pur-ee!
         pur-phy!dub
      { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax }|purdue!
         pur-phy!dub

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Feb 85 0755-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #73
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Feb 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:
             Books - Neuromancer & LeGuin & Silverberg &
                     Computers in Science Fiction &
                     Cherryh/Lee & Anthony (3 msgs),
        Television - Commander Cody,
     Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 (2 msgs) &
                     Con Observation
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 1985  10:07 EST
From: Rob MacLachlan <RAM@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Neuromancer

    Is there any similar connection with "Burning Chrome"?  (I have a
    hunch that the deck jockey might be the same one from "Burning
    Chrome", but I can't check it out right now.)

I believe that they have different names.  I remember getting the
distinct impression that "Neuromancer" occurs some years after
"Burning Chrome".  I believe that one of my reasons for beleiveing
this was that in "Burning Chrome", the coyboy's sidekick (who hacked
his hardware), lost his arm in the same ill-fated attack against the
USSR that Wintermute's agent was in, yet the former was young and the
latter was moderately old.

The Gentleman Loser (bar) is definitely the same.  I remeber
wondering if the junk-shop guy who had the virus program in "Buring
Chrome" was the same as the similar character in "Neuromancer", but I
didn't bother to check.

  Rob

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Pointers please?
Date: 23 Feb 85 10:12:53 EST (Sat)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA



Ursula LeGuin wrote a short story about a group mind called "Vaster
than Empires and More Slow".  It's in the anthology "The Wind's
Twelve Quarters.  It's a rather striking story about a group of
misfits sent out to the stars as an exploration team.  They land on a
curious planet that has no animals on it.  The entire planet is a
group mind, of sorts, made up of plants.  Interesting...

Enjoy!

Our vegetable love should grow
Vaster than empires, and more slow....

        -Nancy <nancy@mit-htvax.arpa>

------------------------------

From: uiucuxa!asb224@topaz
Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles
Date: 22 Feb 85 22:02:00 GMT



   I must heartily agree regarding the Majipoor books by Silverberg.
I was a bit surprised by them, actually, as I don't like much of his
early work.  The books are superb, in my opinion, chiefly for the
imagination and originality which marks them. I recommend them for
all that haven't read them.

                                            -Fred Brunner
                                             UIUC

------------------------------

Date: 23 February 1985 13:43:34 EST
From: <VM0A65%WVNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: COMPUTERS IN SCIENCE FICTION

One of Robert Heinlein's books (The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?) had a
computer named Mycroft, who helped the young hero achieve his
rightful estate.

Hogan is probably the most technically proficient computer-focused SF
writer I've come across, but credit for the most ingenious SF motif
by a technically knowledgeable writer has to go to Thomas J. Ryan,
author of THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1 (Macmillan, 1977).  P-1 is the
computer generation's Frankenstein's Monster.  P-1 comes to "life"
while its creator is a super-hacker sex-crazed student at the
University of Waterloo.  After aiding its creator with a number of
devious money-making affairs, it escapes destruction and "runs away"
via telecommunications lines.  The Huckleberry Finn adventures of P-1
culminate in a show-down with the forces of the Pentagon.  Some nifty
little touches in this one.

(The introductory quote, which precedes the title page, is from Woody
Allen: "Nothing works...and nobody cares.")

------------------------------

From: osiris!eric@topaz (Eric Bergan)
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 23 Feb 85 17:15:25 GMT

> How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's
> stuff or Tanith Lee's works?  I liked Cherryh's Downbelow Station a
> lot and much of Tanith Lee's wierder stories.  A friend of mine
> however won't read any of that stuff on first principles.  To
> paraphrase him, "after all, how many really good female SF authors
> do you know?"  I personally think that the number is certainly
> substantial.  I guess a lot of female SF writers though are still
> suffering from prejudices such as this and find that they must hide
> behind names which are patently male or gender non-specific.  Cases
> in point are C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton.

        I pity your friend, he is missing out on some very good SF. I
have read all of Cherryh's stuff, and much of it is very good (the
short stories in Sunfall, the Kesrith series, Downbelow Station). I
am not a fan of Tanith Lee, but there are other female authors who
are also outstanding (Le Guin, Kate Wilhelm, some of MacCaffrey's
work, and some of McIntyre's). As with anything else, there are good
and bad female SF authors (and some that are uneven).
--

                               eric
                               ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!osiris!eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun 24 Feb 85 01:23:31-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #68

I'm sorry, Piers Anthony is just not that good. In particular I
dislike the offensively cute Xanth series. The first book was
marginally acceptable as offbeat, but it has gotten progressively
worse; I could not force myself to read the latest book in the
series. Besides the generally unremarkable literary quality, I am
offended by his insufferably poor (not BAD, as a good bad pun) puns
and his continual simplistic moralizing.

I do not think much of most of his later stuff, although I am not
saying he cannot write well occasionally. My favorite of his is
Macroscope, written quite some time ago, and of his more recent work
I prefer this rather strange Incarnations series. The Split Infinity
series was just uninteresting; the main plot dilemmas lately all seem
to involve an extended decision not to exercise power, kind of like
Thomas Covenant's six-book dithering.

Now I am not saying that an author is forbidden to express his ideas
and beliefs in his work; quite the opposite. However, when the
characters and situations are so patently artificial, I lose interest
in both the story and the author's point meta the story. Xanth seems
to have been designed explicitly to create the situations that
Anthony is exploiting in his novels, designed in a different sense,
than say, Niven designed Ringworld. I also find that Anthony's novels
have a kind of synthetic or plastic feeling about them, a sense of
reality that often obtains in the most bizarre settings is absent,
and I find myself not able to suspend my disbelief high enough.
Compare Anthony's writing with Delany's, and you will se what I mean.
Delany has had novels set in even weirder places than Anthony, but
except (in my opinion) for his Neveryona, all the settings have
seemed far more real. In a previous message I compared Steven Brust's
Jhereg with Sheri Tepper's Wizard's Eleven trilogy, and I think that
much of Anthony's work also belongs with Tepper's in this "I can't
believe this is happening" category. However, I liked Tepper's
characterizations, and I can't say the same, in general, for Anthony.

I generally try to avoid this kind of criticism, but I am just kind
of surprised at the massive following Anthony's Xanth series seems to
have gathered. I should like to repeat that I have enjoyed several of
his books and stories, and would prefer to think that they, rather
than the Xanth-type stuff are his norm.

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry)
Subject: Re:Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 24 Feb 85 02:42:37 GMT

Yes, while the latest (and the not so latest) Xanth stuff is BORING,
and filled with bad puns, not so hot writing and static plots, the
NEW Piers Anthony series (2 out) "Incarnations of Immortality" are
quite interesting.

Try them before ruling out Anthony as a casualty.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 85 11:31:25 PST (Sunday)
From: Michael Tallan <Tallan.pa@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

I have to add one of my favorite books by Piers Anthony to the ones
that have been mentioned.  "Thousandstar" was one of the first of his
that I read and now, after about a dozen more, still ranks at the top
of the list (along with the Apprentice Adept series, which is also
great).  Without my copy of the book at hand I cannot describe it
with justice, but suffice it to say that it concerns a person whose
mind is transported to the body of an alien for the purposes of a
quest.  The alien's mind is still there and the conversations the two
have as they try to understand each other's culture are very well
done.  They must compete with other such pairs on the same quest and
along the way discover that individual friendships can overcome
racial fears.  What makes the book so enjoyable is the inventiveness
with which Anthony creates situations for the characters to get in
and out of, the descriptions of some really strange alien
physiologies, and the ways in which the main pair and several others
interrelate.  The whole book is a joy and I recommend it.

-- Michael Tallan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 11:46 EST
From: Richard Pavelle <RP@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon

    Date: Monday, 11 Feb 1985 12:22-EST
    From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
    Subject: Commander Cody  and Flash Gordon

            Hey, out there in netland, do any of you remember the
    50's TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but
    as I recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. There
    was also a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crabbe thing,
    that was a half hour weekly show that lasted a year or two.
    Anyone recall, or have any info on who starred, produced, etc.
    any of these?

Who can forget Commando Cody. He was Sky Marshall of the Universe and
then some. I remember it well although it ran only a few months in
1955 on NBC.  We all know that Judd Holdran played Cody but what were
the names of Cody's sidekicks? Also, did Holdren appear in the cinema
version too?

And how about Flash Gordon! In the summer of 1949, I believe, they
first began broadcasts of the 30 minute Buster Crabbe serial. At the
end of episode 1, Flash is confronted by a horned (horny? they all go
after Dale) gorilla which he kills. But the end of episode 2 may be
the first example of TV censorship.  He fights a reptillian monster
and it was considered too intense for children.  The station in New
York terminated the broadcast at the start of the confrontation. I
was really disappointed and waited a long time before seeing a full
broadcast of that episode. Does anyone else recall this censorship
event or more details? I think it was Channel 13 in NYC.

------------------------------

From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison)
Subject: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution:flamethrower set on broil)
Date: 21 Feb 85 23:23:52 GMT

I've just returned from Boskone 22, and the news is not good.  As
usual, they had more people than they wanted; 2300 was the last
number I heard.  Actually I was so disgusted with the fall of NESFA
that I didn't bother going to the con Sunday and Monday.  First,
however, the good news:

o the Boxboro party was *excellent*.  They really know how to throw a
  good party and a good time appeared to be had by all.

o the limited events available were for the most part well run



Now for the bad news, in increasing order of disgust (NESFA fen, you
may not want to read this):

o the parties were shut down by the hotel at 3 AM.  Somebody didn't
  do their work correctly; that's way too early.
   (ok-hotel problem)

o the elevators apparently read HHTTG, since they went on strike for
  most of the con, making it an exercise in paitence to get to the
  various parties.
  (ok, another hotel problem)

o Long flame:

I will never again have anything to do with Boskone, NESFA, or their
attempts at getting the '89 ('90?) worldcon, except possibly to work
against the last.  They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one
day admission <= , the same as for the full event.  I thought this
was suspicious, especially since the people working the registration
desk offered the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges we
can't tell one day people from all-weekend people".  In less than 10
minutes in theregistration area I heard *at least* 10 people express
surprise and disgust...but they still paid.  The same people ran the
'80 worldcon, had more people and still had day memberships.  So the
excuse is pure bu******.

What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform
$22.00: greed.  Yep, GREED.  The *** are buying a clubhouse and are
using fen from all over the northeast to generate money for their
relatively private use.  "But they deserve it, they've put on great
cons for 42 +/- something years".  Yep, they've put on great cons
(interesting how they've slightly adjusted the meaning of the word,
eh?)  but this is a gross violation and ripoff of everything fandom
has stood for.

(as an aside, the '80 worldcon had an approximately $32,000 profit,
so the Worldcon committee knows what they're doing [figure from the
Noreascon Memory book]).

(flamethrower now set to "stun" rather than "broil")

o I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video
  schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff (no not
  him!) off the streets coming in "just to see the movies".
  Phoooooeeeeey.

Moral of the story: (part 1):
DON'T GO TO BOSKONE OR SUPPORT THEIR WORLDCON BID!


(part II): I guess the yuppie-me-generation selfishness can reach all
types.  For some reason I thought fen were different.


dan davison
davison@bnl.arpa
davison@bnl.bitnet
...decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!davison

------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed
Date: 24 Feb 85 01:40:49 GMT

I am not a member of NESFA and have only attended one Boskone (the
most recent).

From: cmcl2!bnl!davison@seismo (Dan Davison)
>They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission <= ,
>the same as for the full event.  I thought this was suspicious,
>especially since the people working the registration desk offered
>the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges we can't tell one
>day people from all-weekend people".

You're right here; this is incredibly lame.

>What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform
>$22.00: greed.  Yep, GREED.  The *** are buying a clubhouse and are
>using fen from all over the northeast to generate money for their
>relatively private use.

Uh, Dan, what do you think groups that sponsor cons do with the
profits?  Send all the fen who attended a rebate?  No, they *keep*
them and they use them for their group.  I'd expect that some of this
year's profits are going to next year's Boskone, too.  Maybe groups
should publish what they're going to do with profits so you can find
out before you register, but if you care that much maybe you'll ask
first.  If you objected to the plans for the money, you didn't have
to go, but if you didn't do any research before paying your money you
have only yourself to blame.

                                                        -Dragon
--
UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry)
Subject: Re: "...I just read the stuff"
Date: 24 Feb 85 03:03:56 GMT

If your question was actually like "can you fit enough fans/people
into an elevator at *any* Boskone, regardless of the hotel?" the
answer is "of course you can't".

But it is quite amazing how many net.people you find roaming around
at cons.  Maybe some will get around to hacking the elevators.

Mikki Barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Feb 85 0239-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #74
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:
                Books - Yolen & Killgore Trout & Forward &
                        Science Fiction Book Club (3 msgs),
               Movies - Saxon & Computers in Films &
                        Buckaroo Banzai & Star Trek IV & Cocoon,
           Television - Dr. Who & Star Trek II &
                        The Prisoner,
        Miscellaneous - Favorite Alien & Group Mind (3 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 February 1985 07:37:25 EST
From: <VM0A65%WVNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: BURIALS AND GRAVESTONES

>    The scary part is look at what history tells us about
> civilizations that start spending significate portions of their GNP
> on burials and gravestones.  They all seem to collapse shortly
> after.

Read Jane Yolen's CARDS OF GRIEF for a great treatment of a culture
that revolves around death and mourning.

It's out in Ace paperback, and also an SF Book Club selection.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 25 Feb 85 10:43:34-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #69

        >a Vonnegut novel VENUS ON THE HALF SHELL which has some
        >psuedonym for an author name great giggleto read not quite
        >sci-fi though

This is NOT a Vonnegut novel.  The author is "Killgore Trout," which
Vonnegut afficionados will recognize as the name of the favorite
author of most of his characters.  This incarnation of K. T. is none
other than Phil Farmer, in one of the most drawn-out literary hoaxes
in recent history: Everyone in VENUS likes the stories of "Jonathan
Swift Somers, III" about a talking German Shepherd named "Ralph von
Wau Wau" (I kid you not).  I've read a couple of these in F&SF; I
don't remember if the characters in these had a favorite author or
not, but I sort of lost interest at that point, anyway.

Bibliography may not be my business, but all those years in grad
school made it easy...

                                       Rich Alderson@{Score, Sierra}

------------------------------

From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz (bayes)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 12 Feb 85 20:39:00 GMT

Sure sounds like your Analog story is at least the basis for The
Flight of the Dragonfly (which I just read last week, so it's still
reasonably fresh in memory).

Did they send the exploration ship with a laser beam to accelerate
it, and decelerate by detaching part of the sail and reflecting back
on the ship at turnaround, as in the book version?

I think Forward tended to get a lot more pretentious in TFotD than he
was in Dragon's Egg. The humans started these (abortive?)
relationships, which never really got pursued later in the book.
Fine, if you're going to carry the thing through, otherwise just give
me good ol' concept type SF.

hpfcla!bayes
(pronounced "Throatwarbler-Mangrove")

------------------------------

From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz
Subject: "Golden Witchbreed" and the SF book club
Date: 25 Feb 85 03:18:19 GMT
Reply-to: mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob)

[A good ochmir player cheats, but only if he has to.]

Another yes vote for the SF Book Club. Though no longer competitive
(pricewise) with paperbacks, they are still cheaper than tradebacks,
and of comparable or better quality.  Also, they occasionally show up
with something excellent from right field (like TC the U while
everybody else was trying to tell me how great an
unnamed-to-avoid-flames TLOR ripoff was).

For instance, the last package from them had "Golden Witchbreed" by
Mary Gentle. The cover blurbs compare it to "Dune", and I think
they've got it about right. She builds an interesting world, and
populates it with interesting people and societies.

Has anybody seen this in the US (it was published in Britain in '83)?
Have any of you in the UK seen anything about the sequel "The
Twilight Shore?"

        <mike

------------------------------

From: hplabs!davis@topaz (Jim Davis)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 25 Feb 85 11:10:16 GMT

> I've been in the book club twice now.  Overall my reaction to their
> selection is an old fashioned "raspberry"!  They have a few oldies
> but goodies, alot of current (last two or three years), and VERY
> few new ones. Also, the new ones are never available till after
> they make it to the bookstores.  In other words, go for the
> freebies when you sign-up, but get out ASAP.

> What we need is good old fashioned competition in the sci-fi
> bookclub market!!

    I find that it is okay though not great to be in the Book Club.
In fact I am often in it twice.  I keep one membership for
continuity, and join a second one everytime I have built up a list of
books that I think are worth having.  The ones that I simply "have to
have" I get with the "continuity membership".  The SF Book Club in
the long term certainly stinks relative to the costs for a new
member.  But it sure seems worth belonging to.  (Right now I'm only
in once, I haven't built up enough that I want to re-rejoin.  (If
they ever objected; I think that that would be the end of my 8 year
associations with them.)

    The books are comperable to some bookstore quality.  (In fact,
they are often identical.)  However, the prices have been going up,
though they are still ~< 1/2 of bookstore prices on the identical
book.
--
----------------------------------
        Jim Davis (James W Davis)
Email:  {any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis
Arpa:   davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: hplabs!davis@topaz (Jim Davis)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 25 Feb 85 12:01:32 GMT

> Finally, upon request, the club will allow you to change to an
> order only relationship; that is, you will only be sent books which
> you have requested, rather than all books which you did not reject.
> This can save a lot of hassle.  Don Keen

    Are you sure; have you done this?  When I tried that they said no
way.  If you actually did get converted into a positive
acknowledgement basis, please send a copy of the correspondence you
used to that end.  I would like to do the same.  Perhaps they have
changed their position in the last two years.
--
----------------------------------
        Jim Davis (James W Davis)
Email:  {any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis
Arpa:   davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random)
Subject: Re: John Saxon and Genesis II
Date: 23 Feb 85 01:58:42 GMT

If anyone could tell me, I would like to remember the name of the
third film I mentioned. This is where 3 people and in a suspended
animation experiment in a space station when a war breaks out. the
orbitis changed for the station to arrive back at earth in 180 years
(when the radiation) is gone.

They are in a scaled down version of the trucks of _Damnation Alley_
and first find a paradise where people are kept alive by transplants
from their clones and then they find a group of savages and game
wardens in an old zoo. Any ideas?

                                        Random
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington)
Subject: re: computers in films (microtrivia)
Date: 24 Feb 85 00:19:50 GMT

> From: rachiele@NADC
>
> There were DECMATES (or something similar, all decs look alike to
> me) all over the place in the BH police station.(1st generation?)
>              Jim

probably Rainbows...(they do look similar)
--
                                        James Steven Carrington
                                        jsc@berkeley.arpa
                                        ucbvax!jsc

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 1985 16:57:55 GMT (Sunday)
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@dca-eur>
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai on video-tape NOW

I rented a copy from my local video-tape-rental outlet last night.  I
found no differences 'twixt the movie-house and my house.

Just remember:  "Wherever you go, there you are."

Jon

------------------------------

From: ukc!tgm@topaz (T.Murphy)
Subject: RE: Star Trek IV
Date: 24 Feb 85 14:03:43 GMT

What about 'The Search for David?'

...mcvax!ukc!tcdmath!jaymin
            or
Joe Jaquinta
c/o D.U. Maths Society
Trinity College Dublin
Ireland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 17:06:26 est
From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: Cocoon

From the March '85 issue of Box Office:

Twentieth Century Fox has pushed up the release of it's
science-fantasy adventure, "Cocoon" from the original Christmas '85
date to a summer release.  It is directed by Ron Howard (Splash),
produced by Richard Zanuck, starring Maureen Stapleton, Don Ameche,
Wilford Brimley, and Steve Guttenberg.  With effects by ILM.

Cocoon is the story of what happens when a group of aliens return to
Earth to retrieve their friends, who had been left behind in cocoons
a thousand years ago when the aliens' city had sunk into the ocean.
When they arrive, the aliens rent a Florida estate and fill its
swimming pool with a liquid that keeps the cocoons alive.  Next door
to the estate there's a retirement community.  And when several of
the residents sneak over to take a dip in the pool, they find
themselves rejuvenated and feeling like 20-year-olds.

                                -Mark Rosenstein
                                mar@mit-borax.arpa

"We're not in the eigth dimension, we're over New Jersy!"

------------------------------

From: iwm%icdoc.ac.uk@topaz (Ian Moor)
Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies?
Date: 12 Feb 85 16:47:54 GMT
Reply-to: iwm@ic-ika.UUCP (Ian Moor)

In article <459@topaz.ARPA> @RUTGERS.ARPA:milne@uci-icse writes:

>    I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English.  I think it's
>    actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision)
>    divisions, Lionheart.  ITV is Britain's commercial network ,
>    though not nearly so commercial as the North American ones.

NO NO !!
Dr. Who is made by the BBC which is definitely not commercial. There
are certainly are commercial spinoffs - any number of paperbacks,
comics, toys and videos (I doubt if there are any in NTSC format
though).  You can tell its not commercial because there are no
climaxes to hold you over the break.. We get Startrek without any
adverts and its easy to tell when they should come, suddenly you
realize Kirk is trapped, fade ...

>    Greater popularity in England?  I would expect so, but I don't
>    know.
Yes - most people I know watch regularly, there are cons regularly,
and both pro and fanzines.

--
Ian W. Moor                  The squire on the hippopotamus is equal
 Department of Computing      to the sons of the other two squires.
 180 Queensgate
 London SW7 Uk.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 24 Feb 1985 21:58:33-PST
From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Rabbit, you're - you're
From: despicable!!)
Subject: Star Trek II on ABC

I just watched Star Trek II on ABC this evening.  I wasn't expecting
a good presentation, knowing how networks love to chop things up.  I
really thought that things were bad when the words 'Edited for
Television' appeared after the opening credits.

I was rather surprised.  For the most part, the commercial breaks
were well-placed, coming (mostly) at logical points in the plot of
the movie (except for the last few that took place in the middle of
the end battle, which should have been shown in its entirety).  I
didn't really notice that very much was cut out, which was also
heartening.

What was most upsetting, however, was the fact that there was SEVERAL
MINUTES OF NEVER-SEEN-BEFORE FOOTAGE IN THE PRESENTATION!!  There was
a whole lot of MEANINGFUL dialog that NEVER made it to the wide
screen or to cable or to videotape/disk.  Some of the extra bits seen
tonight for the first time:

* Extra lines in the Kobayashi Maru (sp?) simulation scene

* More dialog in the scene where McCoy gives Kirk his glasses in
Kirk's apartment

* We find out that Peter Preston is (1) Scotty's grandson or some
such, and (2) has a big lip for such an underling.

* More dialog in the scene where Khan meets Chekov and the Reliant
captain

* More dialog between Kirk, McCoy and Scotty in Sick Bay when Peter
Preston dies, explaining WHY Scotty was upset to tears.

And on, and on, throughout the movie.

The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS end
up with this 'augmented' version?  Why didn't this end up in the
theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape?

The second one of course is when WILL it?

John Francini, DEC Maynard

p.s. My favorite new line is spoken by Spock in the beginning of the
battle scene in the Mutara Nebula.  When asked by Savvik why Kirk
knew that Khan would follow the Enterprise into the nebula, he
replied,

"Remind me to tell you sometime about the concept of the human ego."

Warp speed.

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: Prisoner Appreciation Society
Date: 25 Feb 85 18:06:57 GMT

>An address for the Prisoner Appreciation Society was announced after
>last night's episode.  This is what I copied down (it might even be
>right):
>
>       Prisoner Appreciation Society
>       "6 of One"
>       P. O. Box 66
>       Ipswitch IP2 9TZ

I think that is "Ipswich".  (1982 UEFA Cup Champions)

>       England
>
>And, no, I don't know what they will do to you if you contact them.

Take you to the village? :-)
--
James C Armstrong, Jnr.
   { ihnp4 || allegra || mcnc || cbosgb } !abnji!jca

"You said you came from Fulham."
"Griffiths, when I look at you, I wonder why your ancestors bothered
to climb out of the primordial slime."

------------------------------

From: utcsri!myers@topaz (Brad A. Myers)
Subject: favorite alien
Date: 22 Feb 85 18:36:09 GMT

This may be a new topic(!).  What is your favorite alien in Science
Fiction?  I have read a lot, but my favorites are the Puppeteers
(maybe because I like ostriches) by Niven, and the Little Fuzzies by
Piper.  Are there other really neat creations out there that I
haven't read about?

Thanks,
Brad Myers
Univ of Toronto

------------------------------

Subject: Group Mind/consciousness
From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (M.A. Murphy)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 1985 01:47 EST

I'm surpised that no one has mentioned the Planet/Group Consciousness
Gaia from Asimov's Foundation's Edge.  The planet Gaia is peopled
with humans? who are all part of the group mind, which is the entire
planet, the earth, the trees, the rocks, etc.  Golan Trevize has gone
in search of Gaia because he believes that the 2nd Foundation can be
found on Gaia.  Gaia's role is not that of the 2nd Foundation, but it
is revealed that Gaia is the birthplace of The Mule.  Thus, The Mule
had been a part of the group consciousness and had somehow escaped
that group mind without detection.

This may or may not be an enlightening tidbit, but Gaia is an
excellent representation of a group mind.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 1985  14:02 EST (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Group Minds

        I believe that Kieth Laumer's "House in November" involved a
group mind, and a battle to destroy it.

------------------------------

Subject: Group mind
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 15:07:46 EST
From: Monique Barbancon <Barbancon@YALE.ARPA>

        How about G.R.R Martin's "A song for Lya" ?  It's a short
story about two humans telepaths meeting an alien group mind entity.
Definitely worth reading...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Feb 85 0323-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #75
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:
                    Books - Gibson (2 msgs) & Anthony &
                            de Lint & Simak & Lafferty & 
                            Chalker & Illuminatus &
                            Cherryh/Lee (3 msgs) &
                            The Prisoner (2 msgs),
                   Movies - Saxon (2 msgs),
               Television - V & Star Trek II (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Boskone 22
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 13:32 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: William Gibson query

#66 brought the following query:

    From: oliveb!long@topaz (Dave Long)

    "Neuromancer" is certainly a good book.  Does anyone know if
    William Gibson has written anything else besides "Neuromancer",
    "Burning Chrome", and "Johnny Mnemonic"?

I don't know about novels, but I believe Gibson has published short
fiction in F&SF and elsewhere over the last several years.  His first
published short story, "Fragments of a Hologram Rose," appeared in
issue #3 of Unearth Magazine in 1977.  Gardner Dozois gave it an
honorable mention in his best of the year anthology in '78.

------------------------------

From: osiris!jcp@topaz (Jody Patilla)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer
Date: 24 Feb 85 23:02:59 GMT

"Johnny Mnemonic" and "Burning Chrome" both appeared in OMNI about a
year and a half and two and half years ago, I think (I dug up the
back issues when I bought "Neuromancer"). Both of them share
characters with "Neuromancer", but definitely precede the events in
the book.  Molly Millions figures prominently in "Johnny Mnemonic"
and "Neuromancer" - the book tells you something about what happened
after the short story ended. All three are excellent reading, I
highly recommend them.

jcpatilla

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 25 Feb 85 20:20:57 EST (Mon)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA



    From: lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)

    I've enjoyed Piers Anthony's Xanth books, his Cluster trilogy
    (with a related book Viscous Circle), the Blue Adept/Split
    Infinity/ Juxtaposition trilogy, etc., but there's one Anthony
    novel that surpasses all of these.  It is the first novel of his
    I ever read, and it was maybe 10 years before I saw another.  The
    title is Macroscope and it is awesome.

I second that message.  Macroscope was one of the novels that turned
me from fantasy to sf.  Great stuff.  Enjoy!

        -Nancy
nancy@mit-htvax

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Review: Moonheart by Chas. de Lint
Date: 23 Feb 85 03:40:02 GMT

> A Review by Brett Slocum
>
> MOONHEART is one of the best books I've read for several years.
> Charles


I really have to differ with Brett here.  I was very uncomfortable
with Moonheart, and to a lesser degree with Riddle of the Wren.  De
Lint comes across to me as a very _serious_ writer, one who can't
take himself lightly and give the reader a break.  He somehow manages
to combine in Moonheart a series of obviously personal obsessions:
Celtic music, Celtic art, folklore and mythology of North American
*and* the British Isles, science fantasy (by that I mean S&S), and on
and on.  Now don't get me wrong, I like Celtic art and Silly Wizard
and all that stuff too, I just don't like seeing it *all* stuffed
headlong into one book.  He doesn't do any of these valuable cultural
gems justice, and his attitude seems to be, "Boy, this stuff is
really neat and I just have to put it in, too!  And this!  And this,
too!"  I felt that de Lint really needed to develop a bit of
self-control.  It would also help if he took himself less seriously,
and tried not to be sf's avatar of Celtic culture.  There are a lot
of other writers out there trying to do the same thing.  De Lint
succeeds rather better than some, but decidedly worse than others.
Well written, yes, but with more enthusiasm than talent.  I'm looking
forward to more mature works from him, though.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 03:26:31 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin    )

> Clifford Simak is consistently entertaining, but I always feel like
> I know what to expect; as if he is following some very structured
> writing formula he learned in college.

In general I agree, but a few of his works stand out for their
incredible creativity.  "Way Station" is one.

> The only writers I really admire today (i.e. would like to emulate
> in some way) are Gene Wolfe (such strange imagery; what complex
> human feelings from a science-fiction character), John Crowley
> (Little, Big was really fantasy, I suppose, but the imagery and the
> vision of (subtle, not prestitigitatious) magic was so strong for
> me), and whoever wrote "Parsival, a knight's tale" and "the grail
> war."

I guess I have some reading to do.

                                                -Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 09:50:28-EST
From: P. David Lebling <PDL@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #71

Dave Weininger's "trolley story" is probably "Interurban Rail" by R.
A. Lafferty.  (The title may not be exactly right here).  The story
was probably in one of the later Orbits.

        Dave
        (pdl@mit-xx)

------------------------------

To: Newman.pasa@xerox.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #58
Date: 26 Feb 85 11:08:12 EST (Tue)
From: mrose@udel-dewey

Chalker is almost as prolific as Piers Anthony (or vice-versa).
Perhaps they're the same person armed with a word-processor...

I liked the River of the Dancing Gods series best (though am still
waiting on the release of the third book).  In just about all of his
books, Chalker envisions some sort of tangible entity (e.g., the
well, eyes of baal in "and the devil will drag you under", coldahs in
the "four diamonds" series, etc.)  which direct the operation of the
universe.  In the river series, there's this alternate earth (earth')
which is goverened by the book of rules.  A committee of good and
evil magicians vote on the rules therein.  Typical rule: "in every
party of seven, there is one member who can not be trusted".
Actually, a lot of them are quite funny.

*spoiler**
The major plot revolves around one magician who can travel between
earth and earth'.  The bad guys are trying to pervert earth' (since
God gave up on it) and to launch an attack to earth.  Needless to
say, the good magician, having experienced both earth and earth' is
one formidable opponent, despite overwhelming odds, since the bad
guys haven't heard of things like napalm or vintage films...

Where, or where is that third book?  (Chalker, a retired DEC
salesman, seems to have been spending all of his time on the Soul
Rider series.)

/mtr

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!bllklly@topaz (Bill Kelly)
Subject: Re: Re: Illuminati
Date: 25 Feb 85 23:35:11 GMT

My favorite fnord little thing in fnord the Illuminati trilogy was
fnord the theory that fnord everything we fnord read has the fnord
word "fnord" sprinkled throughout, fnord which we are taught fnord
not to see by fnord early conditioning.  It is this conflict fnord
that causes most of the fnord disharmony in the world.  Fnord reminds
me a little fnord of the explanation for fnord HAL's schizophrenia in
2001.  The best fnord scene in the Illuminati books by my fnord
reckoning is the one in which fnord the protagonist finally breaks
through fnord the conditioning -- while reading a fnord newspaper in
a quiet library fnord, he leaps up screaming:
     "I see the fnords!"

--

Bill Kelly
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706

------------------------------

From: chabot%miles.DEC@topaz (L. S. Chabot)
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 25 Feb 85 21:56:32 GMT

Well, let's see: rejoinders to "just how many good female science
fiction authors are there anyway"...in a pinch, a favorite repartee
is to ridicule the person's ideas of good science fiction.  You start
out with "Well, just how many good *male* science fiction authors are
there anyway?" and get the person to name the authors held dearest,
and then snort and criticize the ones you know, and declare "*Never*
heard of him" while obviously implying that he can't be good if not
well-known.  Fight fire with fire, I say.  It may be hard to put down
the subject matter as being "only *men's* issues" (so that you're
saying that they aren't worthy of consideration by the educated
portions of the human race, but only concern "typical" men's concerns
which everybody knows are racing forms and power lawn mowers :-) ),
but, heck, the exercise in sarcasm is probably worth the effort.

Of course, we should only be so lucky as to get such a fool as above
to list James Tiptree, Jr. as a favorite...on the other hand, you
might not be able to withstand the mirth!  (and, sadly, it's no
longer very likely)

I like to try to worm such discussions around to how none of the
person's favorites can compare to biggies of conventional literature,
such as, say, George Eliot.

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 11:00 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Cherryh, Tanith Lee, etc.

I feel that C.J. Cherryh is one of top female authors in either the
SF or Fantasy field.  Downbelow Station was masterful, the Morgaine
Trilogy was excellent, and The Tree of Swords and Jewels (the sequel
to Dreamstone, which I haven't read) was very good.  She is one of
those people who are equally at home in either genre.  To your
friend, I suggest you have him read some of her work, especially
Downbelow Station, Serpent's Reach, and The Faded Sun Trilogy.  He is
missing some of the best work in the field by his silly "first
principles".  He sounds awfully chavinistic to me.  He may be beyond
hope.

I have also read Tanith Lee's Death's Master, which I thought was
excellent.  But unfortunately, this is the only one of hers that I've
read.

I find female authors in general to be far more interesting than most
male authors.  I think that the prejudice is waning, and that the
majority of readers accept female authors.  Your friend is the
exception, not the rule.

     Brett

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 11:44:23-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #70

I have been reading all of Cherryh's sf over the past few weeks, and
I would have stopped if I didn't like it. I rather like the Han and
the cultures of the Compact and am waiting for Chanur's Revenge,
whenever it comes out. Based on her SF I read one of her fantasy
novels, umm, I think it was Tree of Swords and Jewels, but didn't
really like it a lot. Neither have I liked Tanith Lee's fantasy (i'm
including her in this message because someone else did. Also, before
I had read either author, I had kind of lumped them together in my
mind as Daw hack-authors....)

So, what do you think about the Cnnn? How could such a chaotic
species have evolved space-faring technology, or even fire-sharpened
spears?  They must have something up their sleeves....

-Laurence

"With notch-less ears"

------------------------------

From: mit-athena!martillo@topaz (Joaquim Martillo)
Subject: Re: Prisoner Books
Date: 25 Feb 85 05:53:24 GMT

Before Patrick McGoohan played the Prisoner, he played another series
called Secret Agent.  Was there a tie in?  In the theme song was the
line, "They've given you a number and taken away your name."

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Prisoner Books, T.H.R.U.S.H.
Date: 24 Feb 85 19:32:48 GMT

One interesting point about David McDaniel's Prisoner book is the
first sentence, "Drake woke."  Dave wrote that knowing that Ace Books
was going to be sending the manuscript to McGoohan for approval, in
order to satisfy his own curiosity as to whether McGoohan would
permit that explicit tie in in the official canon between "Secret
Agent" and "The Prisoner."  It got published, so apparently....

Incidentally, if anyone's interested in some of the stranger points
of McDaniel's U.N.C.L.E. (and Hierarchy) stuff, mention it.  I was
one of his best friends for the last ten years of his life.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: mit-athena!martillo@topaz (Joaquim Martillo)
Subject: Re: "Genesis II" and John Saxon....
Date: 25 Feb 85 05:59:44 GMT

In the second post-bomb movie (Planet Earth? with the Amazons -- who
were mentioned in the first movie) the bad guys are the Kreeg.  They
reappeared in Star Trek -- The Movie as none other than the Klingons.

------------------------------

From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: not John Saxon.  Speaking of Genisis II....
Date: 26 Feb 85 03:43:35 GMT

Anyone know what book the plot for Genisis II came from?
'Armagedon 2419 A.D.'  Sound familiar?  Hero by the name of
Anthony Rogers.  Not a bad adaptation, either.

Ah, Buck, we hardly knew ye.....

The second pilot, Planet Earth, didn't come off as well as Genisis.
Too bad the first didn't sell.

As I recall, there was even a third pilot, with John Saxon, that was
actually two of the episodes of the SERIES 'Planet Earth'.  Started
out with a space station.  Anyone recall the name?
--

        Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
        {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 10:25:53-PST
From: Jackie <Burhans%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #71

I realize the big discussion about V went on some volumes back but I
wanted to throw in my two cents. I don't watch the series but I
frequently see the trailers/previews/commercials for upcoming
episodes.  It doesn't look like a particularly intellectually
challenging show but seems like it could be fun. Particularly
charming was the trailer showing a little green baby lizard hand
bursting through the shell of an (presumably little baby lizard) egg.
I got the biggest kick out of that! Just thought I'd throw this out
there--I really have no clue about the point or plot of this series.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 8:34:24 EST
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) <earl@BRL-VAT.ARPA>
Subject: Lt. Saavik

On Sunday night we saw the REAL Lt. Saavik again.  She (Kirstie
Alley) looked good with Vulcan ears.  Monday night she looked even
better with Bunny ears!

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 26 Feb 1985 11:16:13-PST
From: vickrey%coors.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on network TV

They've done it again.  Sunday's (24 Feb) broadcast of "Star Trek II:
The Wrath of Khan", was "edited for television" - adding about 8
minutes of footage that did not show up in the theatrical release, on
cable, or on videocassette - *just* as they did for "Star Trek: The
(Slow-)Motion Picture".  AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

They were nice, explanatory additions (mostly).  It took me awhile to
realise that my brain was *not* malfunctioning.  Sort of the reverse
of watching the re-released TV episodes, in that things were expertly
added instead of expertly snipped.

Best addition: an exchange between Kirk & Spock on the way to the
bridge after leaving the Genesis Cave on Regula:

        KIRK:   That bright young man is my son.

        SPOCK:  (dryly)  Fascinating.

Susan

PS:  Be on the lookout for the newest Citybank commercial, starring
     Jimmy & Wendy Doohan.

------------------------------

From: duke!ndd@topaz (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set
Subject: on broil)
Date: 25 Feb 85 14:54:27 GMT
Reply-to: ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley)

3 AM is way too early to shut down a party? That sounds pretty late
to me.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Feb 85 0424-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:
       Administrivia - "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies,
               Books - Anthony/Heinlein & Chalker (3 msgs) &
                       Stasheff & Aldiss,
          Television - Title of SF Show,
       Miscellaneous - Group Mind (3 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies
Date: 27 Feb 85 03:42:22 GMT

This is a plea to the folks who are responding to "SF-LOVERS Digest"
from the Arpanet.  Could you *please* take a minute to edit your
subject field to something more relevant to the subject?  When these
get to Usenet they're "undigestified" and readers are faced with
several messages with no informative subject line.

                                                        -Dragon

--
UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 14:19:29-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #70

Regarding Piers Anthony: _Sos, the Rope_ was acceptable, as was the
first Xanth novel (although the puns were painful, they were
non-obvious).  The Juxtaposition trilogy was much better.  The rest
of his stuff is schlock, like that of Herbert (excepting only DUNE)
or Murray Leinster.

Heinlein, on the other hand, even at his worst (_"The Number of the
Beast..."_) is a talented writer.  Most people probably are aware
that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was written several years before
some of his better "late period" novels, such as _Glory Road_ or _The
Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.  They are also aware that he is only
making explicit in his later books philosophies that have been
implicit in all his work, from the very earliest--and not only in his
science fiction.

Mr. Eckel could certainly do worse than to emulate Mr. Heinlein.

                                                Rich Alderson@Score

P. S.  The Panshins were right about one thing: Heinlein CAN'T write
well about sex.  On the other hand, I never expected him to do so.
rma

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 26 February 1985, 21:23-EST
From: James M Turner <jmturn at LMI-CAPRICORN>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #71

    Date: 18 Feb 85 08:01 PST
    From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
    Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #58

    What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the
    "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and
    another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore
    yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good.

    Also, has anyone read Farmer's "Dayworld"?

    >>Dave

My Opinion:

   Having read the "Well World", "Warder Diamond", and the existing
pieces of the "Soul Rider" series, as well as "And The Devil Will
Drag You Down", I believe Chalker writes about about one plot line,
which is how some group has immense power over the rest of the
universe by virtue of some kind of control over low-level
implementation details of the universe.

   He also tends to have at least one female character get turned
into an incredibly deformed sex object, for what reasons, I don't
know.

   It's like Moorcock, the first one's great, but the rest seem like
the first one all over.

                                        James

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Chalker
Date: 27 Feb 85 03:28:33 GMT

> From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
>
> What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the
> "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and
> another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore
> yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good.
>
>
> >>Dave

Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls
series, but he has written some nice things.  Other than the Soul
Rider series and any new, new books, there are:

And the Devil Will Drag You Under  (quite good, very funny,
       recommended)
Well Of Souls:
   Midnight at the Well of Souls
   Exiles at the Well of Souls
   Quest for the Well of Souls
   The Return of Nathan Brazil
   Twilight at the Well of Souls
Dancers in the Afterglow     (strange)
Four Lords of the Diamond:
   Lilith: A Snake in the Grass
   Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold
   Charon: A Dragon at the Gate
   Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail
   (The above are in order, they are also in decreasing order of
   quality, but if you read them, read them all to find out what
   happens...)
The Identity Matrix
A Jungle of Stars
The Web of the Chozen  (none of these three stands out in my memory)

                                 Muffy

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: Chalker
Date: 27 Feb 85 05:22:17 GMT

> > From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > > What does anyone know about Jack
> Chalker's work? I have read the > "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw
> the "Soul Rider" series and > another series (something about
> Dancing?) in the bookstore > yesterday, and I am curious if they
> are any good.  > > > >>Dave

> Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls
> series, but he has written some nice things.  Other than the Soul
> Rider series and any new, new books, there are:
>
> And the Devil Will Drag You Under (quite good, very funny,
> recommended)
>
>                                Muffy

I second the Devil Will Drag You Under recommendation.... it was
really very well done.

-eli

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eli Liang  ---
     University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
     ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep  CSNET: liang@cvl
     UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Stasheff
Date: 27 Feb 85 02:02:57 GMT

> From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
>
>       Just spoke briefly to Christopher Stasheff, author of 'The
> Warlock in Spite of Himself. Though not familiar with the series
> myself, I think the list might like to hear about upcoming titles:
>
> "The Warlock Enraged"         coming out of ACE in April 85
> "The Warlock Wandering"               just sent to publisher.
> "The Warlock is Missing"      out June 86
>

>       1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties Wizard",
> a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated to the
> Warlock series and universe.
>
>                                                Peter Trei
>                                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

I was in a bookstore down the street (Bound Together--The Anarchist
Collective Bookstore) and I found a book by Stasheff called "A Wizard
in Bedlam."  This is the only time I have seen this book, but it was
quite as good as the Warlock books.  I don't know how easy it is to
find, but I thought I'd mention it.

                                        Muffy

------------------------------

From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan)
Subject: Re: Help! book title and author search is over....
Date: 27 Feb 85 05:46:11 GMT

> I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish)
> years ago . I may have the story confused with others i have read
> but here is the little you've got to go on .
>       There story is set maybe on earth , a group of humanoids , (
> who may later turn out to be insects !) live near the sea in a vast
> forest/jungle , i think they live in trees / foiliage (?) .

Not a novel... a short story.  It's "Hothouse" by Brian W. Aldiss. I
have it in an anthology that I got ~15 years ago from the SF Book
Club called "Mutants".  It's a marvelous story!

They seem to be people living in trees; they actually live at the
tops of a network of huge banyan trees (the tops of which are called
"the Tips") that have overrun the entire earth.  There are some older
humans and a bunch of children.

> humanoid get into (burrows) a moth which lands on the top of the
> trees/foiliage and which then flies to the moon where our humanoid
> turns into a fly ( man this sounds crazy ! but i'm sure i read it ).

They "Go Up" to the Tips to die when they are old ...  they are
snagged in the legs of a giant spider like thing called a traverser
and are carried to the moon. In this story, the moon and earth have
stopped rotating with respect to each other ... there are
traverser-webs connecting the two worlds.  That's the image that
stayed with me longest; the earth and moon snarled with cobwebs.
Anyway, somewhere on the trip to the moon the people change into
"flymen": men with wings.

> I remember the jungle being full of nasty things they had to avoid
> like plants which eat you . Also every thing was very BIG ( or they
> were very small ) .

there are tigerflies and termights, nasty carnivorous plant life of
all sorts, and ... all kinds of great stuff in a world filled with
vegetable life and just one animal species: man.  It's a great story
... I'm glad you reminded me of it!

jerry

------------------------------

From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan)
Subject: Re: SF show from the 50's
Date: 27 Feb 85 06:05:11 GMT

> From: ahuta!leeper@topaz      (Mark Leeper)

> Now let me ask a really obscure one.  I remember around 1955 or
> 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window
> that could see the past (or future?)

this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember
from when I was very young. The description is right but the timing
is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it???

jerry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 17:22:10 EST
From: Joel B. Levin <levin@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: RE: Group mind

I remember a story (but not its author or title) about a
'micro'-group mind--a few individuals linked together, as opposed to
a species-wide or planet-wide group mind--in some collection I know I
own but which is buried in one of several boxes.  I am missing two
digest issues (63 and 64), but otherwise I have not seen it
mentioned.

The narrator is the personnel director of a large Hughes-like Defense
contractor.  He has an interest in psi abilities (without possessing
any himself) which gets him in trouble with his boss, and he is
always being pestered by a Col. Flagg type security officer.  This
story is not the first in the line: I read another a long time ago,
and this story has references to events probably contained in earlier
stories.  A group of five college grads come to see him; they are
individuals but are linked together and think of themselves as
"George".  The narrator thinks they are using a gimmick to attract
his attention (finishing each others' sentences seamlessly), but he
hires them into different departments of his company.  The company
gets in trouble with DOD because "George" expedites interdepartmental
interactions and jobs start getting done (gasp!) on time, and DOD
wants to know why.

I would be interested to know the extent of this series and if it
exists in a single collection.

        /JBL

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 22:24:47-PST
From: Steven Tepper <greep@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Group mind

This may not exactly qualify as a "group mind", but in Lem's
"Solaris" the entire planet was alive.  I recall Bradbury also having
a story about a planet which was alive and didn't much like its
visitors from Earth.  It may have been one of "The Martian
Chronicles".

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!wales@topaz
Subject: Re: Group minds (Hal Clement, "The Nitrogen Fix")
Date: 23 Feb 85 22:51:12 GMT
Reply-to: wales@ucla-cs.UUCP (Rich Wales)

In article <580@topaz.ARPA>, victoro%Nosc@crash.UUCP (Victor O'Rear)
asked for pointers to stories dealing with racial memory or group
minds.

One such book is "The Nitrogen Fix" by Hal Clement.  This story takes
place on Earth after a natural catastrophe has pulled essentially all
of the oxygen out of the atmosphere and locked it into nitrates.
Those people who survive must either live in enclosed cities or use
breathing masks.  Some claim this state of affairs was due to a
scientific experiment gone wrong -- hence, such words as
"scientist" and "invent" have become vulgar insults.

The only other kind of animal life to be found on Earth at this time
is a large, highly intelligent fish-like being with lots of
tentacles.  One of these has befriended/been befriended by the main
human characters -- a man, woman, and their young daughter.  They
communicate by means of a complicated sign language (which the humans
also use among themselves, since it's hard to hear someone who is
wearing a breathing mask all the time!).

The fish-like being is called "Bones" by its human friends.  The
species (which do not breathe, and thus don't care what is or isn't
in the air) is collectively called either "Natives" (by those humans
who assume the air was always like it is now, and that the "Natives"
are Earth's true original indigenous life form) or "Invaders" (by
those humans who think the fish-like beings prefer a nitrogen
atmosphere and took all the oxygen out of Earth's air so they could
take over the Earth).

As it turns out, the fish-like beings actually comprise a group
consciousness which calls itself "the Observer".  Whenever two
Observer "units" meet, they embrace briefly -- which causes all
memories of each of the "units" to be copied to both.  The Observer
has sent its various "units" all over the universe in an insatiable
quest for as much information as possible.

Both the Observer and the humans have a great deal of difficulty
understanding each other's outlook on the world; this difficulty is
exacerbated by the fact that most of the humans are hostile to the
Observer(s) and make no real effort to understand it/them.

(1) The humans naturally assume that the temporary joining of two
    Observer "units" is a sexual act; conversely, "Bones" assumes
    that his two adult human friends periodically share memories.

(2) When "Bones" meets another, smaller Observer "unit" and they
    share memories -- and then the smaller "unit" returns to
    "Bones"'s human friends and acts just like "Bones" (including
    knowing their home brew sign language), the male human assumes
    that the city-dwellers have done something to shrink "Bones", and
    gets quite upset.

(3) The Observer -- understandably -- has no conception of
    individuality or individual death as we think of it.  It is quite
    a revelation to the Observer that humans actually have no better
    way of communicating to each other than visual and sound "codes"
    (i.e., sign language and speech).  The Observer is also
    thoroughly confused by the human assumption that different
    Observer units are not completely interchangeable with one
    another.

There's a lot more to the book, of course -- I don't want to give the
whole thing away and deprive you of the fun of reading it yourself.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                                                           Rich Wales
                         University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)
                                          Computer Science Department
                                                    3531 Boelter Hall
                                 Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Phone:    (213) 825-5683 // +1 213 825 5683
ARPANET:  wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
UUCP:     ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!wales
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Feb 85 0424-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #76
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Feb 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:
       Administrivia - "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies,
               Books - Anthony/Heinlein & Chalker (3 msgs) &
                       Stasheff & Aldiss,
          Television - Title of SF Show,
       Miscellaneous - Group Mind (3 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies
Date: 27 Feb 85 03:42:22 GMT

This is a plea to the folks who are responding to "SF-LOVERS Digest"
from the Arpanet.  Could you *please* take a minute to edit your
subject field to something more relevant to the subject?  When these
get to Usenet they're "undigestified" and readers are faced with
several messages with no informative subject line.

                                                        -Dragon

--
UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 14:19:29-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #70

Regarding Piers Anthony: _Sos, the Rope_ was acceptable, as was the
first Xanth novel (although the puns were painful, they were
non-obvious).  The Juxtaposition trilogy was much better.  The rest
of his stuff is schlock, like that of Herbert (excepting only DUNE)
or Murray Leinster.

Heinlein, on the other hand, even at his worst (_"The Number of the
Beast..."_) is a talented writer.  Most people probably are aware
that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was written several years before
some of his better "late period" novels, such as _Glory Road_ or _The
Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.  They are also aware that he is only
making explicit in his later books philosophies that have been
implicit in all his work, from the very earliest--and not only in his
science fiction.

Mr. Eckel could certainly do worse than to emulate Mr. Heinlein.

                                                Rich Alderson@Score

P. S.  The Panshins were right about one thing: Heinlein CAN'T write
well about sex.  On the other hand, I never expected him to do so.
rma

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 26 February 1985, 21:23-EST
From: James M Turner <jmturn at LMI-CAPRICORN>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #71

    Date: 18 Feb 85 08:01 PST
    From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
    Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #58

    What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the
    "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and
    another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore
    yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good.

    Also, has anyone read Farmer's "Dayworld"?

    >>Dave

My Opinion:

   Having read the "Well World", "Warder Diamond", and the existing
pieces of the "Soul Rider" series, as well as "And The Devil Will
Drag You Down", I believe Chalker writes about about one plot line,
which is how some group has immense power over the rest of the
universe by virtue of some kind of control over low-level
implementation details of the universe.

   He also tends to have at least one female character get turned
into an incredibly deformed sex object, for what reasons, I don't
know.

   It's like Moorcock, the first one's great, but the rest seem like
the first one all over.

                                        James

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Chalker
Date: 27 Feb 85 03:28:33 GMT

> From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
>
> What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the
> "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and
> another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore
> yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good.
>
>
> >>Dave

Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls
series, but he has written some nice things.  Other than the Soul
Rider series and any new, new books, there are:

And the Devil Will Drag You Under  (quite good, very funny,
       recommended)
Well Of Souls:
   Midnight at the Well of Souls
   Exiles at the Well of Souls
   Quest for the Well of Souls
   The Return of Nathan Brazil
   Twilight at the Well of Souls
Dancers in the Afterglow     (strange)
Four Lords of the Diamond:
   Lilith: A Snake in the Grass
   Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold
   Charon: A Dragon at the Gate
   Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail
   (The above are in order, they are also in decreasing order of
   quality, but if you read them, read them all to find out what
   happens...)
The Identity Matrix
A Jungle of Stars
The Web of the Chozen  (none of these three stands out in my memory)

                                 Muffy

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: Chalker
Date: 27 Feb 85 05:22:17 GMT

> > From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > > What does anyone know about Jack
> Chalker's work? I have read the > "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw
> the "Soul Rider" series and > another series (something about
> Dancing?) in the bookstore > yesterday, and I am curious if they
> are any good.  > > > >>Dave

> Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls
> series, but he has written some nice things.  Other than the Soul
> Rider series and any new, new books, there are:
>
> And the Devil Will Drag You Under (quite good, very funny,
> recommended)
>
>                                Muffy

I second the Devil Will Drag You Under recommendation.... it was
really very well done.

-eli

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eli Liang  ---
     University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
     ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep  CSNET: liang@cvl
     UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Stasheff
Date: 27 Feb 85 02:02:57 GMT

> From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI%CU20B@COLUMBIA.ARPA>
>
>       Just spoke briefly to Christopher Stasheff, author of 'The
> Warlock in Spite of Himself. Though not familiar with the series
> myself, I think the list might like to hear about upcoming titles:
>
> "The Warlock Enraged"         coming out of ACE in April 85
> "The Warlock Wandering"               just sent to publisher.
> "The Warlock is Missing"      out June 86
>

>       1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties Wizard",
> a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated to the
> Warlock series and universe.
>
>                                                Peter Trei
>                                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

I was in a bookstore down the street (Bound Together--The Anarchist
Collective Bookstore) and I found a book by Stasheff called "A Wizard
in Bedlam."  This is the only time I have seen this book, but it was
quite as good as the Warlock books.  I don't know how easy it is to
find, but I thought I'd mention it.

                                        Muffy

------------------------------

From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan)
Subject: Re: Help! book title and author search is over....
Date: 27 Feb 85 05:46:11 GMT

> I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish)
> years ago . I may have the story confused with others i have read
> but here is the little you've got to go on .
>       There story is set maybe on earth , a group of humanoids , (
> who may later turn out to be insects !) live near the sea in a vast
> forest/jungle , i think they live in trees / foiliage (?) .

Not a novel... a short story.  It's "Hothouse" by Brian W. Aldiss. I
have it in an anthology that I got ~15 years ago from the SF Book
Club called "Mutants".  It's a marvelous story!

They seem to be people living in trees; they actually live at the
tops of a network of huge banyan trees (the tops of which are called
"the Tips") that have overrun the entire earth.  There are some older
humans and a bunch of children.

> humanoid get into (burrows) a moth which lands on the top of the
> trees/foiliage and which then flies to the moon where our humanoid
> turns into a fly ( man this sounds crazy ! but i'm sure i read it ).

They "Go Up" to the Tips to die when they are old ...  they are
snagged in the legs of a giant spider like thing called a traverser
and are carried to the moon. In this story, the moon and earth have
stopped rotating with respect to each other ... there are
traverser-webs connecting the two worlds.  That's the image that
stayed with me longest; the earth and moon snarled with cobwebs.
Anyway, somewhere on the trip to the moon the people change into
"flymen": men with wings.

> I remember the jungle being full of nasty things they had to avoid
> like plants which eat you . Also every thing was very BIG ( or they
> were very small ) .

there are tigerflies and termights, nasty carnivorous plant life of
all sorts, and ... all kinds of great stuff in a world filled with
vegetable life and just one animal species: man.  It's a great story
... I'm glad you reminded me of it!

jerry

------------------------------

From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan)
Subject: Re: SF show from the 50's
Date: 27 Feb 85 06:05:11 GMT

> From: ahuta!leeper@topaz      (Mark Leeper)

> Now let me ask a really obscure one.  I remember around 1955 or
> 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window
> that could see the past (or future?)

this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember
from when I was very young. The description is right but the timing
is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it???

jerry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 17:22:10 EST
From: Joel B. Levin <levin@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: RE: Group mind

I remember a story (but not its author or title) about a
'micro'-group mind--a few individuals linked together, as opposed to
a species-wide or planet-wide group mind--in some collection I know I
own but which is buried in one of several boxes.  I am missing two
digest issues (63 and 64), but otherwise I have not seen it
mentioned.

The narrator is the personnel director of a large Hughes-like Defense
contractor.  He has an interest in psi abilities (without possessing
any himself) which gets him in trouble with his boss, and he is
always being pestered by a Col. Flagg type security officer.  This
story is not the first in the line: I read another a long time ago,
and this story has references to events probably contained in earlier
stories.  A group of five college grads come to see him; they are
individuals but are linked together and think of themselves as
"George".  The narrator thinks they are using a gimmick to attract
his attention (finishing each others' sentences seamlessly), but he
hires them into different departments of his company.  The company
gets in trouble with DOD because "George" expedites interdepartmental
interactions and jobs start getting done (gasp!) on time, and DOD
wants to know why.

I would be interested to know the extent of this series and if it
exists in a single collection.

        /JBL

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 22:24:47-PST
From: Steven Tepper <greep@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Group mind

This may not exactly qualify as a "group mind", but in Lem's
"Solaris" the entire planet was alive.  I recall Bradbury also having
a story about a planet which was alive and didn't much like its
visitors from Earth.  It may have been one of "The Martian
Chronicles".

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!wales@topaz
Subject: Re: Group minds (Hal Clement, "The Nitrogen Fix")
Date: 23 Feb 85 22:51:12 GMT
Reply-to: wales@ucla-cs.UUCP (Rich Wales)

In article <580@topaz.ARPA>, victoro%Nosc@crash.UUCP (Victor O'Rear)
asked for pointers to stories dealing with racial memory or group
minds.

One such book is "The Nitrogen Fix" by Hal Clement.  This story takes
place on Earth after a natural catastrophe has pulled essentially all
of the oxygen out of the atmosphere and locked it into nitrates.
Those people who survive must either live in enclosed cities or use
breathing masks.  Some claim this state of affairs was due to a
scientific experiment gone wrong -- hence, such words as
"scientist" and "invent" have become vulgar insults.

The only other kind of animal life to be found on Earth at this time
is a large, highly intelligent fish-like being with lots of
tentacles.  One of these has befriended/been befriended by the main
human characters -- a man, woman, and their young daughter.  They
communicate by means of a complicated sign language (which the humans
also use among themselves, since it's hard to hear someone who is
wearing a breathing mask all the time!).

The fish-like being is called "Bones" by its human friends.  The
species (which do not breathe, and thus don't care what is or isn't
in the air) is collectively called either "Natives" (by those humans
who assume the air was always like it is now, and that the "Natives"
are Earth's true original indigenous life form) or "Invaders" (by
those humans who think the fish-like beings prefer a nitrogen
atmosphere and took all the oxygen out of Earth's air so they could
take over the Earth).

As it turns out, the fish-like beings actually comprise a group
consciousness which calls itself "the Observer".  Whenever two
Observer "units" meet, they embrace briefly -- which causes all
memories of each of the "units" to be copied to both.  The Observer
has sent its various "units" all over the universe in an insatiable
quest for as much information as possible.

Both the Observer and the humans have a great deal of difficulty
understanding each other's outlook on the world; this difficulty is
exacerbated by the fact that most of the humans are hostile to the
Observer(s) and make no real effort to understand it/them.

(1) The humans naturally assume that the temporary joining of two
    Observer "units" is a sexual act; conversely, "Bones" assumes
    that his two adult human friends periodically share memories.

(2) When "Bones" meets another, smaller Observer "unit" and they
    share memories -- and then the smaller "unit" returns to
    "Bones"'s human friends and acts just like "Bones" (including
    knowing their home brew sign language), the male human assumes
    that the city-dwellers have done something to shrink "Bones", and
    gets quite upset.

(3) The Observer -- understandably -- has no conception of
    individuality or individual death as we think of it.  It is quite
    a revelation to the Observer that humans actually have no better
    way of communicating to each other than visual and sound "codes"
    (i.e., sign language and speech).  The Observer is also
    thoroughly confused by the human assumption that different
    Observer units are not completely interchangeable with one
    another.

There's a lot more to the book, of course -- I don't want to give the
whole thing away and deprive you of the fun of reading it yourself.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                                                           Rich Wales
                         University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)
                                          Computer Science Department
                                                    3531 Boelter Hall
                                 Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Phone:    (213) 825-5683 // +1 213 825 5683
ARPANET:  wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
UUCP:     ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!wales
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Mar 85 0348-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #77
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:
                Books - Hodgell & Anthony & Adams &
                        Illuminatus & Female SF (4 msgs) &
                        The Prisoner & Science Fiction Book Club,
               Movies - Saxon & Best SF Film (2 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aesat!rwh@topaz (Russ Herman)
Subject: P.C. Hodgell/God Stalk
Date: 24 Feb 85 23:18:52 GMT

The following is the introductory blurb to "A Matter Of Honor", which
was originally printed in _Clarion Sf_, ed. Kate Wilhelm, Berkeley
Medallion, 1977. This story, significantly revised, became one of the
chapters of _God Stalk_, and is probably Hodgell's first professional
appearance.

        Pat Hodgell (called PC, pronounced "peacy") is a graduate
        student in English at the University of Minnesota. She has a
        green belt in judo, and a kyu blue in aikido, and she does
        art as a hobby. There are a number of _Jame_ stories in
        various stages of completion, and eventually there will be a
        novel. I feel certain after reading this, her first story,
        many people will look forward to the novel with eagerness.

Eight years to finally get into print! Lets hope we don't have to
wait another eight for a sequel.

As to the identity of the cover artist, poring over the lower
right-hand corner of the cover reveals (I think) "??ernak". Anyone
know of a cover artist named Pasternak, or Chernak, or have I been
playing too many records backwards listening for satanic messages
:-).
--
  ______               Russ Herman
 /      \              {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!rwh
@( ?  ? )@
 (  ||  )              The opinions above are strictly personal, and
 ( \__/ )              do not reflect those of my employer (or even
  \____/               possibly myself an hour from now.)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 27 Feb 1985 07:34:23-PST
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: Piers Anthony

Addendum to Bill Brickman's list of Piers Anthony books:

No mention was made of Anthony's other new series, Bio of a Space
Tyrant.  Volumes I and II ("Refugee" and "Mercenary") are available,
"Politician" (?)  is upcoming, plus, eventually, the 4th volume
wrapup. While it's not up to some of his best (e.g., Macroscope),
it's quite interesting and definitely worth reading.

Also, I have heard that there is a 4th "Orn" sequence book, although
I don't know the title and haven't seen it -- I'm not quite sure
where he could have gone with the series after OX (and even OX wasn't
quite up to the first two), but if anyone knows what (or if) it is,
I'd like to know.

Macroscope is one of my favorite novels of all time -- it has every
element anyone could ask for in good sf; interesting, believable
characters, who change and grow throughout the story,
thought-provoking ideas, suspense, alien civilizations, flute music,
... it'd make a fantastic movie if someone would take the time and
effort to do it right (which is why I'm scared that someone might
try!).  Anyway, I highly recommend this book!

        /dave

Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062

orac::butenhof
butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof

Any resemblance between the opinions expressed in this article and
any actual opinions, living or dead, is strictly coincidental and in
no way binding upon either myself nor upon Digital Equipment
Corporation. Besides, who cares?

``Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a
rigged demo.''

------------------------------

From: dsd!ross@topaz (Evan Ross)
Subject: Re: Six times Nine is really Forty Two
Date: 25 Feb 85 19:38:05 GMT



        Six times nine truly is 42 if you're working with the proper
        numeric base, namely 13.
--
                        Evan Ross   decwrl!amd!fortune!dsd!ross

"To oppose something is to maintain it.
 To oppose vulgarity is inevitably to be vulgar."

------------------------------

From: D3U%PSUVM.BITNET@topaz
Subject: Illuminatus! books listed
Date: 26 Feb 85 06:33:06 GMT

Here is as far as I know the complete list of books by R.A.Wilson in
the series

The Illuminatus! trilogy: consists of The Golden Apple, The Eye in
the Pyramid and Leviathan. They were cowritten with Robert O'Shea.
About a year ago they were reissued together in a single volume.
Lots of philosophy, SF, occult references, obscure jokes, mystery,
conspiracies Several plots related to each other in a psychedelic
style (even references to the MC5 and the Fugs, late Sixties bands)

Cosmic Trigger   written in non-fiction style with some explanation of
  things behind the events and ideas in Illuminatus!  UFO's, Timothy
  Leary, Zen, etc.

Masks of the Illuminati   James Joyce, Albert Einstein, and Aleister
  Crowley have tea time with the neophyte Cabala student

The Illuminati Papers     a collection of papers and articles and
  stories more esoteric philosophical fun

Schrodinger's Cat  trilogy   consists of The Universe Next Door, The
  Trick Top Hat, and The Homing Pigeons characters from Illuminatus,
  or their counterparts in the universes next door
Even parallel stories to Illuminatus. More cosmic Humor

The Earth Will Shake   Volume One of the Illuminati Chronicles
    came out a few months ago, set around 1764 in Naples
    looks like SF for D&D and fantasy fans

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 14:32:47-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #70

Regarding C. J. Cherryh: I haven't read as much of her work as I
should like-- there just isn't enough time for it all.  I find her
_mri_ to be at least as exciting as Dickson's Dorsai, and quite a bit
more likeable.  (The Fading Sun trilogy.)

Regarding Tanith Lee: I've only read her first book of Grimm
re-writes, but I fully intend to pick up as much of her work as I can
lay hands on.  Marvelous!

Regarding prejudice against females who write SF: Well, there are
close-minded turkeys everywhere, I guess.  My favourite writers (from
very early on) have always included Norton, Bradley, and McCaffrey;
Le Guin was added in college, along with Suzette Haden Elgin.
Maleness does not guarantee good writing: I call to witness the works
of Anthony, Aldiss, Herbert, Leinster, Norman, and others too
numerous to mention.

The adventurous of spirit will always get burned with bad writing,
but we'll always find gems that the losers of the world will pass by
because of something or other they think they know about the writer.

                                                Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 25 Feb 85 18:38:41 GMT

> How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's
> stuff or Tanith Lee's works?  I liked Cherryh's Downbelow Station a
> lot and much of Tanith Lee's wierder stories.  A friend of mine
> however won't read any of that stuff on first principles.  To
> paraphrase him, "after all, how many really good female SF authors
> do you know?"  I personally think that the number is certainly
> substantial.  I guess a lot of female SF writers though are still
> suffering from prejudices such as this and find that they must hide
> behind names which are patently male or gender non-specific.  Cases
> in point are C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton.
>
> -eli

Tell your friend to come out of the dark ages!  What a dumb thing to
say!

"I'm not going to read anything by Chip Delaney or Steve Barnes.
 After all, How many really good black SF authors are there"

"I'm not going to read anything by Issac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, or
 Avram Davidson.  After all, how many really good Jewish SF authors
 are there?"


ETC

Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan
Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser known
but still good authors.

Your friend is hiding behind prejudices formed when there were no
female SF authors.  Personally, I think he's missing a great deal.  I
also think he deserves to miss out, if he can't get beyond his
backward, stupid, blind outlook on new things.

Give him some James Tiptree, and don't tell him 'til later that she's
a woman...

Ariel Shattan

..!tektronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

From: ihuxn!res@topaz (Rich Strebendt)
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 24 Feb 85 23:48:23 GMT

In response to:
| How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's
| stuff or Tanith Lee's works?  ... A friend of mine however won't
| read any of that stuff on first principles.  To paraphrase him,
| "after all, how many really good female SF authors do you know?"  I
| personally think that the number is certainly substantial.  I guess
| a lot of female SF writers though are still suffering from
| prejudices such as this and find that they must hide behind names
| which are patently male or gender non-specific.  Cases in point are
| C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton.

Your friend has his head firmly ensconced in his ass.  If you wish,
feel free to convey this insightful comment to him.

I have been reading Science Fiction for many years, and I have found
that I have thoroughly enjoyed work by the following authors (among
others)
        C. J. Cherryh (one of my all-time favorites)
        Marion Zimmer Bradley (The series on the People is great)
        Ursula K. LeGuin (Dispossessed is a masterpiece)
        Anne McCaffrey (Great Dragon Rider Series)
        Andre Norton (Some books are aimed at juveniles, but still
          first rate)

A hallmark of the female SF author seems to me to be a great
sensitivity to the reactions and development of the characters.
Hence, since I enjoy getting to know a character as a story
progresses, I greatly enjoy the work of the authors named above.
That is NOT to say that male authors are incapable of the same
sensitivity.  I find Robert Silverberg's recent work quite well done
in this regard, for one.

Yes, for a long time some really good SF writers who happened to be
of the female gender had to hide that fact to get published.  I think
that this situation has begun to turn around -- I have begun to see
garbagey SF on the paperback shelves bearing the names of female
authors!!

Perhaps another interminable discussion is in order, to whit:

        WHAT IS SOME OF THE WORSE SF YOU HAVE READ RECENTLY
          A) BY A MALE AUTHOR
          B) BY A FEMALE AUTHOR
          C) BY NONE OF THE ABOVE

For (A) above, I nominate the Illearth Wars series (Chronicles of
Thomas Covenant).  I struggled through 2.5 of the volumes before I
gave up and burned them (they even smelled bad on the fire!).  For a
close second to this I will nominate Harlin Ellison (vulgarity for
the sake of sensationalism and $$$).

I have to consider a while before I make any nominations for (B) or
(C) above, as I am normally not a book critic.

                                        Rich Strebendt
                                        ...!ihnp4!ihuxn!res

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Female SF authors
Date: 26 Feb 85 01:45:45 GMT

I like most of Cherryh's stuff (especially the Gate of Ivrel trilogy,
Hunter of Worlds, and Chanur).  I decided Tanith Lee was /funny/ urr
interesting once; read two or three books of hers, then gave them
away; never bought any more.  Octavia Butler's stuff is VERY good.
Andre Norton's has been increasingly boring the last few years.
Liked the early LeGuin.  Never cared much for Tiptree.

I have friends who won't buy fantasy by a male.  They claim all the
current great fantasy writers are female.  Prejudices sure are funny,
aren't they?

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Re: The Prisoner Returns
Date: 27 Feb 85 02:54:28 GMT

>
> Incidentally, there is a Prisoner novel that you could buy,
> provided you look really hard....I think it's written by Tom Ditsch
> (sp).
>
>
> Daniel Conde
> conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA

Actually, there are at least three Prisoner novels, being published
by New English Library.  They are:

          The Prisoner          Thomas M. Disch
          The Prisoner: A Day
                 in the Life        Hank Stine
      The Prisoner:  Who is
                 Number Two         David McDaniel

I find them occasionally at a bookstore here in the city (SF)
...I suggest looking at any stores which carry lots of English
editions...

                                Muffy

------------------------------

From: chabot%miles.DEC@topaz (L. S. Chabot)
Subject: a vote against SFBC
Date: 26 Feb 85 13:45:23 GMT

Yes, the prices are good, but the quality of printing is bad: the
covers are about the cheapest I've seen in hardcovers (only surpassed
by The Library of America), the ink smears on the pages, and they
smell funny.

Maybe there is a new flavor out now, but the times I've subscribed, I
always had to send in a card in order NOT to receive books.  If
they've changed this it would be an improvement (at least for those
times when you come back from vacation to find you're going to
receive books you'd never want).

Suggestion to those who are going to subscribe: look for an offer in
non-SF magazines or material.  The offers in Omni or sunday paper
supplements usually will give you more books and goodies than the
offer on the back of Analog (6+ books and a bag as opposed to ~4
books).

I no longer subscribe to SFBC, and I don't foresee subscribing again.

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: "Genesis II" and John Saxon....
Date: 25 Feb 85 19:39:59 GMT

Ah, yes, I remember GENESIS II -- filmed on the University of
California at Riverside campus while I was an undergrad (just dated
myself, eh?).  I have fond memories of standing in a group and
cheering as the film crew "burned" down the Library....

Scenes for "BUG", a horrible version of THE HAEPHESTUS PLAGUE were
filmed in my apartment building.  One of my friends in Scientific
Illustration made all the foot-long plastic cockroaches.

What strange things one gets nostalgic about.
--
Berry Kercheval     Zehntel Inc.    (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
(415)932-6900                       (kerch@lll-tis.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 16:54:09 EST
From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
Subject: Best SF Film

On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX
11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society
type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in
charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are
robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ? now
it's starting to sound like brave new world .  It has a real nail
bitting ending .. but of course i wouldn't tell about that . I saw it
in england it was in colour so must be fairly new ?? .
        Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS .  A
must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very old
and , of course , silent .

Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best SF
Book of all time .

-Julian Long

------------------------------

From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan)
Subject: Re: Best SF Film
Date: 27 Feb 85 06:22:39 GMT

> On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX
> 11.. i can't remember the whole title .

This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he was
still in school). It's cute when you see THX 1138 on a car license
plate in American Graffiti. . .

jerry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Mar 85 0358-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #78
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:
           Books - Lafferty (2 msgs) & Chalker (2 msgs) &
                   Perry Rhodan & Movie Poster Book,
      Television - Dangermouse &
                   1950's SF Show (2 msgs) &
                   "The People" & Star Trek II &
                   Dr. Who (2 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bothner@Shasta.ARPA
Subject: Re: Title request [Trolleys => Lafferty's "Interurban Queen"]
Date: 26 Feb 85 22:51:40 GMT

> Plot: This is a alternate future story, the narrator's present is
> one in which cars have been replaced by trolley's.  Lots of
> trolleys.  They run all over the country -- lots of transportation
> substance without the ego/ownership thing.  The narrator is on one
> for at least part of the tale.  He slips in and out of (dreams?)
> the other future (ours) where gasoline powered machines have ruined
> the environment.  There are some crazies in his alternate/present
> that drive (illeggasoline cars.

This is R.A. Lafferty's "Interurban Queen". This is another of
Lafferty's wonderfully schizoid/nostalgic stories. Anyone who hates
LA should love this story ( -:) ).

It appears in what I believe is his latest collection, "Ringing
Changes".  Many of the stories here are about Barnaby Sheen and his
weird group of hangers-on. While there are some mediocre stories
here, there are also some great ones. ("Been a Long, Long Time" is
the ultimate monkeys-typewriters-and-Shakespeare story. It
incorporates a device for measuring time (one hesitates to call it a
clock) on the \very/ grand scale.)  And even a mediocre Lafferty
story is usually more unsettling and amusing than most other
authors'. You get the impression of a very literate and philosophical
mind run wild. (I understand Lafferty only started writing when he
was already pretty old, though you can still see him party-hopping at
World Conventions.)

The classical collection of short stories is "Nine Hundred
Grandmothers".  There are other collections, and a number of novels,
but Lafferty is best in smaller does.
        --Per Bothner
ARPA: Bothner@su-score  UUCP: {decwrl,ucbvax}!shasta!bothner

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Trolley Story
Date: 26 Feb 85 21:32:21 GMT

Since no one else seems to have the precise citation, the R. A.
Lafferty story is 'Interurban Queen', which originally appeared in
ORBIT 8 back in 1970 and was recently collected in RINGING CHANGES.
I think it's a fun story but not as fun as some of the others in
CHANGES such as 'Days of Grass, Days of Straw', 'Among the Hairy
Earthmen' and 'The Doggone Highly Scientific Door'.  The first two,
especially, are classics...  Lafferty is one of those writers (like
Avram Davidson) whose style can't be mistaken for anyone else's, and
whom readers seem to strongly admire or violently detest (count me in
the former camp).

Enjoy,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: panda!mjn@topaz (Mark J. Norton)
Subject: Chalker's remaining trilogy
Date: 27 Feb 85 15:04:12 GMT

It would seem that just about all of Jack Chalker's books have been
discussed recently with the exception of The Soul Rider trilogy.
Since I've just completed the last book, I will round out the dialog.

** Slight Spoiler **
These three books concern a strange sort of place divided into two
basic regions: flux and anchor.  Flux is basically what it sounds
like, a place of constant change, engergy floating around as a foggy
cloud, which can be manipulated by people with certain talents.

Anchor, on the other hand, is stablity.  These are small regions
(islands, almost) where conditions are close to Earth-norm.  Anchor
is home to normal people and technology.  Flux contains wizards,
mutated monsters and magic.

The Soul Rider trilogy is a tale of Science vs. Magic.  Chalker
throws in a liberal dose of represive religions, preaching on the
roles of the sexes in society, and that men would be gods given
2/3rds of a chance.  There are even elements of the Western Novel.

-- Summary and Dispositon --
As with some of Chalker's other work, intresting ideas are raise.
Readers of this newsgroup will be intriqued by the part computers
play the finale.  Some philosophy is expounded and examined.
Finally, the Soul Riders themselves and their origin are fun ideas.

The ideas are good and the books may be worth reading for that alone.
I found the first volume to be exicting, the second OK, and the last
boring.  Characters flip/flop several times, major players do things
that just don't seem plausible.  Overall, the books lack some in
continuity.  That this is deliberate on Jack's part doesn't make up
for it.  Finally, if you are feministically inclined, you will be
truly offended by some parts of the story.

     Mark J. Norton
     decvax!genrad!{panda | teddy}!mjn

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 11:29:37-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Chalker's next "Dancing Gods" novel, another Chalker novel
Subject: coming, Marc Stiegler book

The next Dancing Gods novel is apparently "Vengeance of the Dancing
Gods", and is listed as being set for July (from Ballantine/DelRey).

Jack is obviously working on things other than the Soul Rider series,
because he also has "Downtiming" coming out from Tor in April
(ballyhooed by Tor as "The ultimate novel of time travel and time
paradox, and of a titanic war along the time lines!  With this novel,
Jack L. Chalker joins the company of the classics of Fritz Leiber and
Robert A. Heinlein and Keith Laumer."  [hope it's half as good as
they claim it is]

On a non-Chalker subject: Hey, Marc Stiegler, what is "David's
Sling"?  (listed as having been sold to Baen Books)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 85 18:21:00 EST
From: <theo@ari-hq1>
Subject: Perry Rhodan - Unser Mann im All!

Earlier this month, pduff inquired about the hero of the universe,
Perry Rhodan. I'd like to submit my own questions on this matter.

Are many of the books in the series independent of the German stories
(novellettes or novellas)?
How do the translated texts compare?
How popular was Perry Rhodan outside of Germany?
Is the series still popular in Germany?

About 14 years ago*, I picked up some Perry Rhodan pulps, namely:
     #373...In der Todeszone...by Hans Kneifel
     #374...Die Macht des Sepulveda...by H.G.Ewers
     #375...Verschwoerung in Andromeda...by H.G.Ewers

My German was never good enough to get through them. As rusty as it
is today, allow me to present and try to translate some of the pithy
sayings that PR fans came up with. A slogan would be inserted in each
issue.

"Perry-Rhodan-Romane lesen,           (Read PR books
 und schon in der Zukunft gewesen."    and already be in the future.)

"Von Terra bis zum fernsten Stern --  (From Earth to the furthest star
 Perry-Rhodan-Leser folgen gern!"      PR readers follow on!)

"Sterne vergehn -- Sonnen entstehn,   (Stars leave (?) -- suns remain,
 Perry Rhodan wird nie untergehn."     PR will never succumb.)

*My pulps were published in '68. I picked 'em up in Alpine Village, a
German-theme shopping center in Torrance, CA (L.A. County).


                                   THE_One and only
                                       Armyland
                                (a suburb of Pentagonia)

------------------------------

From: mot!al@topaz (Al Filipski)
Subject: Re: ANYONE REMEMBER...
Date: 27 Feb 85 23:48:31 GMT



Dover sells a book called "Science Fiction and Horror Movie Posters
in Full Color" which has 44 fairly large (10'' by 14'') posters in it
of movies such as "Tobor the Great", "The Mole People", "The Amazing
Colossal Man", "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman", "Day of the Triffids",
etc.

Note on Sexist Cliche in Movie Posters: 15 of these posters have a
lady in distress wearing a low-cut dress being carried by one of the
monsters.  The women look practically interchangeable except for the
color of their dresses-- Same position, exposure of legs, expression,
etc.

--------------------------------
Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A
{seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al
--------------------------------
didn't I see you at the zombie jamboree?

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 00:41:52 PST
Subject: Mangerdouse and Penefolobe

        There is a growing number of people out who have become
infected with the craziness of 'Dangermouse' currently being
distributed on Nickoldien.
        I need information concernining is home country's, England,
sucess.  How long did it run?  Was there any spin-offs?  What was the
total run?
        If anyone has any questions, ask away yourself.

>>>>Come back Mrs. Boathook, all is foregriven!

--Victor O'Rear         {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro
                        bang!crash!victoro@nosc
                        sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: re: SF show from the fifties
Date: 28 Feb 85 11:51:37 GMT



>> I remember around 1955 or 1956 watching a show with someone having
>> a machine with a window that could see the past (or future?) I
>> think that they could also step through the window.  I vaguely
>> remember the show, but have never seen a reference to it anywhere.
>
>Gary Gerani's FANTASTIC TELEVISION mentions a show involving time
>travel that was on in 1955, called CAPTAIN Z-RO. Perhaps that's it.

>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

I am pretty sure it is.  One of my other sources says that each
episode was 15 minutes long and now that I think of it, it did have
short episodes.  Trust jayembee to have the obscure facts at his
fingertips.

I got a number of responses like there was an obscure show when they
were growing up ... called TIME TUNNEL.  Now I feel old!  :-(

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: SF show from the 50's
Date: 28 Feb 85 23:23:52 GMT

> this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember
> from when I was very young. The description is right but the timing
> is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it???

Say, you're making me feel *old*!  I mean because I guess I remember
Time Tunnel so well and you don't.  Come-on!  Time Tunnel.  Super
secret project under the desert sands.  Tony and Doug lost in time!
Lee Merriweather (sp?) as the pretty lady scientist type.  Time
Tunnel is screwed up (on purpose?) in the first episode.  Where ever
Tony and Doug end up they can be seen and heard in Time Tunnel
control.  They keep getting yanked out of danger in the last minute
of each episode.

"I don't know where they're going ...  but at least they'll be
together..." (Old man scientist type.)


--
Fred Avolio      {decvax,seismo}!grendel!avolio    301/731-4100 x4227

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 1985 17:58:01-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: TV movie based on Henderson's PILGRIMAGE....



     Does anyone remember a made for TV movie that was adapted from
Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE and entitled, succinctly, "The People"?

     I saw this movie when I was quite young, must have been
gradeschool or junior high, and I remember it as being wonderful. Yet
it's been so long, I'm wondering whether I've got it correct. Was it
really based on PILGRIMAGE or were there just similarities? I also
can't remember a single actor in it. Thanks for any help.


                                     ---  Jeff Rogers
                                          jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 1985 17:59:00-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Star Trek II on ABC....



> From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Rabbit, you're - you're
> From: despicable!!)
> Subject: Star Trek II on ABC
>
> What was most upsetting, however, was the fact that there was
> SEVERAL MINUTES OF NEVER-SEEN-BEFORE FOOTAGE IN THE PRESENTATION!!
> ...
>
> The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS
> end up with this 'augmented' version?  Why didn't this end up in
> the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape?
>
> The second one of course is when WILL it?
>
> John Francini, DEC Maynard


     I too noticed some of this additional footage; not all that John
reports, but at least one scene that he didn't mention: shortly after
Kirk returns from the genesis cave, he and Spock are climbing through
the Enterprise due to malfunctioning elevators. Kirk says to Spock,
"That young man -- he's my son!" To which Spock replies with a
sarcastic "Faaascinating." At least I didn't remember this from the
theatrical release.

     Surely everyone remembers when ST:TMP was first shown by ABC and
was expanded quite a bit in order to fill out a three hour time slot.
I liked this version of ST:TMP quite a bit better than the theatrical
version; is this expanded version available on any medium?


                                      ---  Jeff Rogers
                                           jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 08:47:42-PST
From: Alan Greig (Dundee, Scotland) <Alan%dct@UCL-CS.ARPA>
Subject: Uproar as BBC cancels Dr. Who
Cc: ALAN%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA
Reply-to: G.GREIG@SU-SCORE.ARPA

The BBC announced yesterday (27th February 85) that no more episodes
of Dr. Who would be made for at least the next 18 months. Michael
Grade the new, and highly controversial, controller of BBC1
television said the decision had been taken in order to allow the
money saved to be spent elsewhere. Since making the decision the BBC
have been flooded with calls from irate viewers and the Dr Who
appreciation society.  If they are allowed to get away with this it
could well spell the end of Dr. Who for good and killing off a
program with over 100 million fans worldwide would be in keepin with
the, to say the least, strange decisions Mr. Grade has made so far.
He has been forced to back down before by the strength of public
opinion and hopefully he will have to do so yet again. NOW is the
time for time travellers world wide to write to the BBC in protest.
The address is :

        The Controller
        BBC1 Television
        London
        United Kingdom

or alternatively go straight to the top and write to :

        The Director General
        British Broadcasting Corporation
        London
        U.K.


After 21 years they cant kill the Doctor now !

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 13:09:34-PST
From: andy_leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andy    ^    Leslie )
To: simon%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Atrocious news for Dr Who fans



hello

        in an announcement last night the BBC stated that DR WHO is
to 'take a rest' for 18 months at least, due to production costs.

        This is preposterous!!! The BBC have just introduced several
new series and are just using the costs business as a ploy.

ACT NOW!! WRITE TO THE BBC!!!!

        A good address:


                Barry Took
                Points of View
                BBC Television Centre
                London.

This is an on-air complaints program. Make your voice heard!!!

Ye Gods! Is NOTHING sacred?

andy (<>^<>) leslie

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Mar 85 0408-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #79
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:
             Books - SF Holmes Pastich & Monaco &
                     Stasheff and Bischoff & Stasheff (2 msgs) &
                     Anthony (4 msgs) & Simak &
                     Aldiss & Illuminatus,
            Movies - Brainstorm & Star Trek IV &
                     Five Million Years To Earth (2 msgs),
        Television - V
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Re: The game's afoot!
Date: 28 Feb 85 01:46:33 GMT

> Fans of both Holmes and SF should check out HER MAJESTIES
> BUCKETEERS, which is sort of a SF-Holmes pastich, but set in
> not-Victorian not-England not-on- Earth with not-Human's in all
> roles.  The holmesian nature of the story is not overtly stated,
> but is hard to miss.  Moriarty with six arms is rather
> interesting....
>
> -- La musique est une science qui veut qu`on rit et chante et
> dance.
>       -- Guillaume de Machaut

> Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc.  (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)
> (415)932-6900 (kerch@lll-tis.ARPA)

"THEIR MAJESTIES' BUCKETEERS."  Recommendation seconded, as well as
any other books by L. Neil Smith, author of TMB.  Correction here,
*three* arms, segmented into nine limbs (or is it the other way
around?)...anyway, everything is in powers of three, not multiples.

                                        Muffy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 11:25 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Parsival and Grail War

> me), and whoever wrote "Parsival, a knight's tale" and "the grail
> war."

These are written by Richard Monaco. I haven't read them, yet, but
they look good.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 11:43:17-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Stasheff and Bischoff



Aaah, I always thought Stasheff's stuff was shlock, too. However, I
am now reading Destiny Dice or somesuch by Bischoff, which not only
is a spoof of itself, but also contains concealed puns and word-play
as well. For some reason, perhaps because Bischoff realizes how silly
he is being, which I do not think is the case with Anthony, I am
enjoying the book.

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Stasheff
Date: 28 Feb 85 15:39:00 GMT

The Anarchist Collective Bookstore?

Is this a test?  Or a Magritte painting...

--
                Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated.

                                Charlie Martin
                                (...mcnc!duke!crm)

                "I am not a number, I'm a free variable!"

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Stasheff
Date: 2 Mar 85 01:50:26 GMT

In article <5502@duke.UUCP> crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>The Anarchist Collective Bookstore?
>
>Is this a test?  Or a Magritte painting...
>
>--
>               Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated.
>
>                               Charlie Martin
>                               (...mcnc!duke!crm)
>
>               "I am not a number, I'm a free variable!"

No, no test...a weird bookstore near my house which has one shelf of
unusual used science fiction.

Oh, I noticed that no one had mentioed "Escape Velocity" in
connection with Stasheff or the Warlock books.  This is the book
which tells of the origins of the planet on which the warlock finds
himself.

                                                                Muffy

------------------------------

From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack)
Date: 28 Feb 1985 1446-EST (Thursday)
Subject: About Piers Anthony ...

        After everything lately concerning Piers Anthony, I thought
it was time to add my two cents.  First I'll say that I like Anthony
enough that he is one of three authors whose books I'll buy on name
alone.  I've read most everything he's written.
        First, you cannot judge his writing by reading just one
series or book, ESPECIALLY Xanth.  He tends to write in series, with
three exceptions -- Macroscope (excellent), Hasan (his worst), and
Rings of Ice (the one I haven't read [out of print?]).
        Xanth is very different from other stuff he's done.  It is
almost like a cheap verbal comic strip or cartoon; and that's the way
I read it.  The only reasons there have been so many is that they are
so easy to write and a LOT of people buy them for some reason.  I
don't hold it against him to satisfy that audience with new Xanthia
as long as he brings out new Anthony (like the Incarnations.
        Someone mentioned reading Thousandstar which was the first
sequel to the Cluster trilogy.  There have been two others added to
the series (Viscous Circle and "name forgotten").  These books are
interesting in the universe they create and different races of aliens
(and how they work.)  However, each book has a different set of
characters.  The Tarot trilogy is also set in the Cluster universe
and is good.  I think Cluster is probably his best series.
        Others have mentioned the Battlecircle trilogy which I rate
in the middle of his writing.  Also, Orn, Omnivore and Ox are good
but not his best.  Cthon was one of Anthony's first novels.  It was
recently re-released along with a sequel, Pthor.  These two are also
interesting but a little weak.
        More recently he wrote the Split_Infinity/Blue_Adept/
Juxtaposition trilogy.  This is his closest work to Xanth but is
still quite different.  The ideas are great -- the game, parallel
worlds, etc; but the characters are somewhat plastic.  (I did like
the little female unicorn, Nessa? .)  The new Bio of a Space Tyrant
series is in yet a different vein.  This work has more 'misery'
a.k.a. Thomas Covenent and is long winded; but the story has kept my
interest so far and I'm not going to pass judgment until the next
(third) book at least.
        In summary, I can count on Anthony to write an interesting
and exciting story; but I don't count on him being a literary god.
And, if you judge him solely on his Xanth series, you aren't really
judging Piers Anthony.

                                -- Chris Warack
                                   war@dutch

please excuse misspellings and wrong names/titles -- this is off the
top of my head.

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 27 Feb 85 13:20:59 GMT



     Along with Anthony's Macroscope, he also wrote a book called
Mute, which is quite different from the others. Basically it is about
mutations caused by space travel and various other things which I
can't at the moment remember. None the less, it was a very good book,
well worth reading.

M. McCann

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 10:45 EST
From: Mark F Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

I have also read "ThousandStar" and the Apprentice Adept series.
Both were very good.  Someone out there mentioned the Xanth series as
being boring and having bad puns.. Well, I found the Xanth series fun
to read(though there may have been maybe 20 outright puns per page).
It's always good to be able to laugh at the story(if the author meant
you to laugh).  Has anyone out there read any of the "Spellsinger"
series??(Alan Dean Foster)..These are really fantasy stories, but I
found them to be entertaining.. The stories have lot's of humor in
them(very few puns. humor comes mostly from situations the main
characters get into).

See ya
Mark Rand  (Tigqc356@cunyvm)  (Compuserve 75615,1712)

"May the Farce be with you"
Acknowledge-To: Mark F Rand <TIGQC356@CUNYVM>

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 2 Mar 85 01:42:54 GMT

I haven't seen any mention of "Prostho Plus" or "Triple Detente,"
which are two more humorous books (not counting puns, that is).

                                Muffy

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 21:14:02-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks 223-9408)
Subject: 'Way Station' - Clifford D. Simak



Yet another emphatic recommendation for 'Way Station' by Clifford
Simak - it's my second favorite SF novel. I wrote the publisher for a
new copy, but it's out of stock (or print, perhaps).

#1 is actually two books (same book, different edition) by Arthur
Clarke: "Against the Fall of Night" (circa 1957), or "The City and
the Stars" (circa 1961).

He rewrote the story while on a cruise ship to fight off boredom, but
in all honesty, I think the original was better. Not sure about the
dates - where is Jayembee when you need him?!

"Bibliography is none of my business..."

Mark Maxson  MAXSON%vaxwrk.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  1 Mar 1985 06:18:39-PST
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: "Hothouse"

>> I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish)
>> years ago.
>> (...)

> Not a novel... a short story.  It's "Hothouse" by Brian W. Aldiss.
> I have it in an anthology that I got ~15 years ago from the SF Book
> club called "Mutants".  It's a marvelous story!

Well, you can also look for the NOVEL version, "The Long Afternoon of
Earth", which is probably what the original requester wanted.  Quite
a bit happens in this story -- it's fun to re-read occasionally.  It
gets a bit "strange" in places, but I like it.

        /dave

Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062

orac::butenhof
butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof

Any resemblance between the opinions expressed in this article and
any actual opinions, living or dead, is strictly coincidental and in
no way binding upon either myself nor upon Digital Equipment
Corporation. Besides, who cares?

``Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a
rigged demo.''

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 85 11:27:05 EST (Friday)
Subject: Re: Illuminatus! books listed
To: D3U%PSUVM.BITNET@TOPAZ.ARPA
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA>

The Illuminatus! trilogy was written by Robert Anton Wilson & Robert
Shea (not O'Shea).

"The Widows Son", vol 2 of the Historical Illuminatus is supposed to
be out about now [has anyone seen it].  Maybe "The Earth Will Shake"
'looks like SF for D&D and fantasy fans', but it certainly doesn't
read like it.

"Right Where You Are Sitting Now", more non-fiction/autobiography
similar to "The Cosmic Trigger".

                                        Chris

Everything you know is false.

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 00:38:46 PST
Subject: re: re: Loose Ends

> From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jerry Boyajian)
> Subject: re: Movie Loose Ends
> What's to explain? It was meant only to be a throwaway --- a gag
> pulled on the one guy by the other. There was no intent on
> developing it as a concept; the story moved off in another
> direction totally. Now, I agree that it's a fascinating idea that
> deserves a full treatment of it's own, but it really had no
> relevance to the story in BRAINSTORM, except very superficially.
>
> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)


        Ah, but is did matter.  Brainstorm was the story of the
unseen consequences of a discovery.  The development of the story
centered around the everincreasing spin-offs from the single idea of
recording brain waves.
        Therefore I have a strong feeling toward the 'uncompleteness'
of the man-animal link, even missing a 'throwaway' comment such as;
'Well, not it in the records, regardless.'
        Nuff said, I guess if I didn't like the film so much I would
care so much for it's flaws.

--- victoro (Victor O'Rear, SDSU, San Diego, CA)

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 00:35:37 PST
Subject: re: The Star Trek Plots

> From: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Star Trek IV plot ??
>
> How about this for a plot:
>
> The Fed HQ will never give one to them. Savior of the Genesis
> project or no, Kirk is not a good team player and will never get a
> Federation command *as things stand now*.
>
>                                This means that Kirk must find one
> from out of the salvage yards. F'rinstance, remember the abandoned
> Constellation (?)  orbiting the planet of Yangs and Coms? I do not
> remember its fate, and it might still be available. Or better yet,
> how about the alternate universe Enterprise with the evil Kirk,
> sneaky Spock, etc ... ?  Kirk's alter-ego didn't look long for the
> multiverse at the end of that one, and whoever is riding around in
> that ship now could doubtless be suckered into losing it.
>                                                 --- JohnnyT

        I agree, the Kirk would not get a full class ship,
imeadiately.  Interestingly, the 'Mirror-Universe complecations after
the end of the last film' story is currently running in the
comic-book adaptions.
        (Now wait a moment - Imagine a mirror-universe New
Federation.)
        In the story, which I only started because it IS following on
the concept of - after the end of the film..., the mirror-universe
devlops a process of sending an entire ship (the mirror-Enterprise),
and in the ensuing issues, real Kirk escapes with the Excabler to the
mirror-universe, the alter-Kirk tries to adjust to our Federation,
and the alter-spock retireves Spock on alter-Kirks orders.  Who he
then rebels against and joins the real-Spock and Kirk to the
alter-dimention for the overthrowing of the old Federation....I may
have lost someone here..it is interesting.
        And it allows Kirk to save the day, once again.

SHLOCK: And you've got just what you've allways wanted.
JERK:   What's that, Commander Shlock?
SHLOCK: A bleached blonde in a red convertable on the planet Schwartz.
JERK:   Yeah, Aint I something?

--Victor O'Rear         {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro
                        bang!crash!victoro@nosc
                        sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 1985 09:56:49-EST
From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
Subject: Five Million Years To Earth

From:  C.R. Morrison
Subject:  Five Million Years To Earth

Yes!  Excellent movie!  Wish we could see the whole thing, instead of
the undoubtedly hacked-up versions shown on TV.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 11:35 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Five Million Years to Earth

I have seen 'FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH' a couple times on TV, but I
would hardly classify it as one of the best SF movies I've seen.  It
doesn't really hold a candle to many films mentioned previously.  I
thought it was more like a Horror film, a genre for which I don't
really care. (Boy, sometimes it's hard not to end a sentence with a
preposition).  Yes, it had some interesting ideas, but hardly enough
to justify 'Best SF Flick'.

Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85  9:53:39 EST
From: Larry Kaufman <lkaufman@BBNCCM.ARPA>
Subject: V: What happened to the summaries?

The note from Jackie <Burhans%ECLD@ECLA> on V in V10#75 reminded me
of something that happened when V series was first being shown.
Someone had volunteered to summarize the episodes for us.  However, I
haven't seen any summaries in a long time.  Not having a television
and therefore being unable to check for myself, I'd like to know:

Is it really that bad or did the person doing the summaries find
other things to do with his time?

--- Larry Kaufman
    lkaufman@bbn-unix.arpa
    {decvax,ihnp4}!bbncca!ljk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Mar 85 0417-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #80
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 2 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:
                   Books - Blish & Title Request &
                           Science Fiction Book Club &
                           Computer Science Fiction &
                           Female SF Authors (5 msgs),
                  Movies - Saxon & "Genesis II",
           Miscellaneous - Help With Button &
                           Favorite Alien & Bussard Ramscoop
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: utzoo!henry@topaz (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Blish's Black Easter 1st ed available cheap
Date: 26 Feb 85 00:22:01 GMT

James Blish's "Black Easter" is a quite a good novel, although it's
more occult fiction than SF.  For quite a while, it was very hard to
find.  It was reprinted a couple of years ago, but the original
paperback edition is still rare.  Dallas-area fans, listen carefully.
The Fairmont Hotel, where Usenix was held, has a little
newsstand-cum-gift-shop.  Its book racks have an amazing mixture of
recent books and ancient ones.  In particular, if you go straight to
the back and then turn left, left, and left again, you will find
yourself looking at about a dozen copies of the first paperback
edition of Black Easter, in essentially mint condition, selling for
cover price (75c).  My own non-mint-condition copy cost me $10 a few
years back, although the price may have fallen some since the
reprint.

I offer this in case anyone's interested.  Followups (if any) by
mail, please, since I lack the time to read sf-lovers nowadays.
--
                            Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                            {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Feb 85 22:42:02-EST
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER@TL-20B.ARPA>
Subject: What is the story?

The plot: Geologists have evidence (new theory, new instruments, ?)
that a major earthquake will hit L.A. within the next (week, month,
?).  The story concentrates on the politics and sociology of getting
t he city evacuated.  It is evacuated.  After k days, no earthquake.
Geologists look like fools; everyone unhappy.  City is un-evacuated.
Earthquake strikes, millions die.

I thought I remembered it from Analog, but I've just done a massive
search of the last 10 years and can't find it.  I have a friend who
is a geologist but non-sf person to whom I would like to show it.

Please reply directly to me; I read SF-Lovers only very sporadically
these days.

------------------------------

From: hou5e!ijk@topaz (Ihor Kinal)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB
Date: 28 Feb 85 18:49:44 GMT

I disagree.  I just rejoined for the nth time, where n is
approximately 10.  I'm an avid reader, and go thru several books a
month.  I've been waiting for the latest Pohl Heechee book to come
out, and when the Book club did, I rejoined.  You get 5 books for a
buck plus shipping; (total is $6.00); plus you have to buy 4 more in
a year. (Say average cost is $7.00).  In other words, you pay about
$34.00 for 9 books, which is about the price of a paperback edition.
Furthermore, I have yet to see the Pohl book in paperback.

Note: I don't intend to stay in longer than necessary; after 4 books
I just dropout.  If you buy more than one book at a time, you
sometimes save on shipping.  Also, you can occasionally get specials
not otherwise available, (such as the Dragon Rider's trilog) which
work out as a better deal.  Or on occasion, the book club may offer 6
books for a dollar.  Also, once in the past, they sent me a special
offer to rejoin; it seemed slightly better than the average deal.

Ihor Kinal (I haven't read EVERYTHING in Scinece Fiction, but I'm
hou5e!ijk   trying).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 22:09:59 est
From: Sande Wallfesh <wallfesh%uconn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Computer Science Fiction

> #define CSF "Computer Science Fiction"


"The Two Faces of Tomorrow" -- James Hogan
   Sophisticated programs are capable of making inferences, learning,
   and modifying themselves.  Self-aware computers are considered
   powerful but potentially dangerous solutions to many problems.
   "'Building a machine that might not work out is one thing...
   Handing a whole planet over to something you don't understand is
   another.'" A self-contained microcosm is constructed as a giant
   laboratory.

"The Shockwave Rider" -- John Brunner
   Overtones of Toffler's "Future Shock" permeate a futuristic
   information-age society. The protagonist call forth abilities
   bestowed upon him by a prestigious think-tank to change his
   identity at will using computers.

"Valentina" -- Joseph Delaney & Marc Stiegler
   Hackers, worms, Lisp, AI, and Worldnet...An "intelligent" program,
   Valentina, evolves. Valentina introspects quite a bit. She
   amusingly ponders that alcohol is "...a special liquid very
   damaging to human processing, like trying to do too many floating
   point operations without floating point hardware."

"Tea with the Black Dragon" -- R. A. MacAvoy
   Silicon-based fantasy which centres around a computer crime.
   Actually mentions "Dr. Dobbs Journal"!

"Software" -- Rudy Rucker
   (Excerpted in Dennett's & Hoffstadter's "The Mind's I".)  A former
   roboticist's mind, or "software", if you will, is implanted in new
   hardware. "...brain functions are partially contained in a remote
   super-cooled processor" in a strife for immortality by literally,
   saving souls.

"Bugs" -- Theodore Roszak
   The blurb on the back of the book warns that "Mankind is no match
   for 'The Brain,' the national master computer, the perfect machine
   destined to rule the world."  However, "..machines aren't perfect
   ...bugs in a computer can kill."

"Computerworld" --A. E. Van Vogt
   "Human verbalisations which are not related to my programming are
   meaningless sonic debris in my memory banks. And I normally dump
   all such items in two weeks."  The Computerworld Rebel Society
   revolts against its 1984-ish realm.

"The Cosmic Computer" -- H. Beam Piper
   "'...there was a giant computer named Merlin...Its memory bank
   contained all human knowledge.'"  The search for this mythical
   machine has widespread socio-political implications.

"The Integrated Man" -- Michael Berlyn
   "...a relatively small piece of hardware that contained thousands
   of circuits imprinted on each molecular layer--circuits which
   served as analogs of human neural pathways" are used in a
   frightful man-machine interaction.  A profit-hungry mining magnate
   employs these chips to control his workers. Similar chips, though,
   are the vehicle of vengeance for those he has wronged.

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" -- Robert Heinlein
   A massive supercomputer wakes up to self-awareness, a process
   which "happens automatically whenever a brain acquires certain
   very high number of associational paths. Can't see it matters
   whether paths are protein or platinum."  The computer's role in a
   revolution on Luna is augmented by its (his?) sense of humour.


A recurrent theme in the CSF I've encountered is that of the
"intelligent" computer and/or program.  Many fictional systems seem
fluent in natural languages!

Is there an AI sub-genre? Some of the above titles seem to suggest
that there is. If so, can anyone recommend AI CSF titles?

Sande Wallfesh
CS/EE Department
University of Connecticut
wallfesh%carcvax.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
wallfesh@uconn
honors2@uconnvm.bitnet

------------------------------

From: tekchips!messick@topaz (Steve Messick)
Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 25 Feb 85 18:56:21 GMT

> How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's
> stuff or Tanith Lee's works?  ...

C.J.Cherry is my favorite author.  I must admit that I found her
fantasy duo (The Dreamstone & Tree of Swords and Jewels) and Voyager
in Night rather difficult to follow at times.  However her technique
of not explicitly telling you everything you need to know to
understand the plot appeals to me -- I like to think a bit as I read.

--steve
tektronix!tekchips!messick

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: female SF authors...
Date: 28 Feb 85 01:34:05 GMT

Speaking of female SF authors...try Ann Maxwell.  Especially the book
"Name of a Shadow."

                           Muffy

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random)
Subject: Female SF&F authors
Date: 27 Feb 85 13:53:39 GMT

I'm surprised! I'm shocked! I'm confused? With all this talk of great
female SF&F authors, you people have left one completely out.

        Marion Zimmer Bradley (one of my favorites)

One of the greatest series' I've ever read gets ignored, THE DARKOVER
NOVELS!

                                        Random
                                        Research Triangle Institute
                                        ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 01:40 EST
From: "Andrew D. Sigel" <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: C. J. Cherryh

     Just about all of Cherryh's books are set in the same future
history.  The Faded Sun novels, the Chanur novels, the Union/Alliance
novels, plus individual novels like "Port Eternity" and "Serpent's
Reach", all fit in.  Cherryh has worked out not only the timing of
these novels, but has also worked out a 3D map of the stars and their
positions (the star chart in "Chanur's Venture" is a 2D approximation
of a small section of her 3D map).

     The only novels I know for sure are not included are the two
fantasies, "Sunfall", and "Hestia".  To the best of my knowledge
(though I haven't figured out just how in a couple of cases), all her
other published novels fit into the timeline.  Some novels take place
exclusively in Union space, and others in Alliance space, which
accounts for the differences in human mores (that, and time passage).

     I enjoy Cherryh's work very much, though at the moment I'm still
not happy with her over the "cliff-hanger" ending of "Chanur's
Venture", and the sudden retitling of "Chanur's Revenge" into "The
Kif Strike Back" (a little too cute for me).

                                                Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female
Subject: SF authors...
Date: 26 Feb 85 20:39:26 GMT

> Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan
> Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser
> known but still good authors.

You forgot Joanna Russ!!!! And Ellen Kuttner, Marion Zimmer Bradley,
Diane Duane, R.A. MacAvoy, Sylvia Engdahl, Madeleine L'Engle,
Katherine Kurtz, Jane Yolen, Joan Aiken.....Sorry, I'm getting
carried away.
                                -Ellen

------------------------------

From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman)
Subject: Re: Genesis II and remakes with John Saxon
Date: 28 Feb 85 01:52:34 GMT

There were several postings on the TV movie "Genesis II" and actor
John Saxon.  Yes there was a third movie, and I'm surprised no one
seems to have posted the title.  The first pilot film, "Genesis II"
(1973) starred Alex Cord as scientist Dylan Hunt who awakens 200
years in the future; Gene Roddenberry produced this film.  "Planet
Earth" (1974) was a remake with John Saxon as Hunt.  The story
changed as Hunt meets women who make men slaves.  The third film,
"Strange New World" (1975) also starred John Saxon.  There were
similarities, but this time Saxon played one of three astronauts who
return to Earth from suspended animation.  Also, the film was not
produced by Roddenberry.

Hank Heyman Integrated Microcomputer Systems (IMS), Rockville, MD.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 1985 17:56:25-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: "Genesis II" and "Strange New World"



> If anyone could tell me, I would like to remember the name of the
> third film I mentioned. This is where 3 people and in a suspended
> animation experiment in a space station when a war breaks out. the
> orbitis changed for the station to arrive back at earth in 180 years
> (when the radiation) is gone.
>
> They are in a scaled down version of the trucks of _Damnation Alley_
> and first find a paradise where people are kept alive by transplants
> from their clones and then they find a group of savages and game
> wardens in an old zoo. Any ideas?
>
>                                         Random
>                                         Research Triangle Institute
>                                         ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb


     Something fishy's happening here. My somewhat spotty memory
recognizes the above plot summary as that of a made for TV movie I
saw some years ago, starring (or featuring) James Olsen (I think).

     Mark Leeper has already told us that the third "Genesis II" film
was called "Strange New World". My somewhat spotty memory does
associate that title with the above plot summary.

     The only thing is, I can't remember any connection in storyline
or characters between the first two "Genesis" films and the film
described above (and Random's plot summary given above doesn't detail
any such connection). I DO remember the existence of a third
"Genesis" film; but I remember the movie described above as being a
totally different entity.

     Can anyone help?


                                      ---  Jeff Rogers
                                           jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 15:22:09 EST
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
Subject: Help with button

I have a button that reads

     I am the Imp of the Perverse
      (knowing this won't help you either)

That I bought and stuck on our MILNET IMP.  Actually, I had to by
another one because I think our IMP hardware guy took the first one.
Question is what does it mean.  Does this relate to some book?  Can
anyone help with a reference?  Please reply by mail.

-Ron

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!atst@topaz (Tom Pace)
Subject: Re: favorite alien
Date: 28 Feb 85 07:04:47 GMT

> This may be a new topic(!).  What is your favorite alien in
> Science Fiction?  I have read a lot, but my favorites are the
> Puppeteers (maybe because I like ostriches) by Niven, and the
> Little Fuzzies by Piper.  Are there other really neat creations out
> there that I haven't read about?

I don't read much of the current pulp (don't have the time) but it
seems that most scifi aliens are either too anthropomorphic (Spock)
or utterly unbelievable (energy beings).  I prefer stories where the
alien is reasonably possible from what we know of biology or where
the alien is unseen or legendary.  Niven's (& Pournell's) Moties from
'the Mote in God's Eye' are my favorite among the possibles.  The
Krell from 'Forbiden Planet' are my favorite among the legendary.

{uw-beaver,etc.}!ssc-vax!atst

------------------------------

From: eagle!mjs@topaz (M.J.Shannon)
Subject: Bussard Ramscoop a reality?
Date: 1 Mar 85 02:59:37 GMT

I have a small request.  Within the last year or so, I recall reading
an article in a magazine (perhaps Omni) which detailed some of the
specifics and feasability of such science fiction devices as Niven's
Bussard Ramscoop.  I haven't been able to locate this article, and I
need it to resolve an argument.  Can anyone point me at the article
in question?  Please reply via mail, as I no longer have time to read
this digest.  Thanks much.
--
        Marty Shannon
UUCP:   ihnp4!eagle!mjs
Phone:  +1 201 522 6063

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Mar 85 0427-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #81
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 3 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:
              Movies - Best/Worst SF Movies (8 msgs) &
                       Earth II,
       Miscellaneous - Group Minds (2 msgs) &
                       Illuminati Game & Josephson Junction
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Worst SF Movies/censorship technique (repost)
Date: 27 Feb 85 16:34:26 GMT

"Battle Beyond the Stars" was recently nominated in the "Worst SF
Movie" discussion. This reminded me of something that was done to
this movie when I saw it on broadcast TV, and which I recall seeing
in only one other broadcast movie. [A couple other short postings
have alluded to this, since this was originally written, but haven't
gone into the subject in any depth.]

This was a technique of "bluring" or obscuring portions of the image
to hide nudity or something the network censors didn't like without
clipping out the scene(s) from the movie.

In Battle Beyond The Stars, every time the scene was the inside of
the warrior-girl's ship, the view of her, lying in her accelleration
couch (or whatever it was), was blurred by a grey, fuzzy blotch in
the foreground that hid her cleaveage. I saw the same technique in
the broadcast of the movie "The Shining" (with Jack Nicholson, based
on the Stephen King book). In that, there was a scene of him
observing an apparition of a woman taking a bath and stepping out of
the bathtub.  This would have been full-frontal nudity, and, instead
of excising the scene for broadcast, the few seconds when the woman's
body would have been visible were blocked by one of these fuzzy grey
patches, just over her torso; the rest of the image was clear.

I can understand the use of this in "The Shining"; it was a major and
probably expensive-to-buy-the-rights picture, and it was better to
show as much of it as possible and use this technique to allow that
scene to be broadcast without violating the network's code or
standards.  However, in BBtS, it seems silly. There was no nudity
being blocked; just cleaveage shots no racier than what is seen in an
average episode of "Love Boat" or dozens of other shows.

My questions: What is this technique called, and can anyone provide
any technical details as to how it is done, and under what
circumstances, and if it is cheap or expensive to do?  Can anyone
name other movies broadcast on TV in which this technique is or was
used?

It all seems rather childish; at least one local independent TV
station (KPLR, Ch. 11, St. Louis, MO) has been showing movies and
reruns of the cable version of the "Bizarre" program which have brief
amounts of female nudity, without cutting or obscuring them. It seems
a healthy trend to not worry so much about this sort of thing.

Will Martin

USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin     or
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

From: pete%stc-c.gb.UUCP@topaz (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Best/worst SF movies
Date: 27 Feb 85 09:49:05 GMT



        Why no mention of "This Island Earth" as the best SF movie of
the 1950s??? After an admittedly slow start (the fist 45 minutes are
spent setting up the finish, but what's so unusual about that) and
some rather unconvincing models the story really hots up with our
Earthling heroes joining an interplanetary battle with some really
great visuals. This is the movie that E.T. spent some of his time on
Earth watching.

        "Battle Beyond the Stars" footnote. This was shown on
commercial TV over here in little ol' England and we were allowed to
see the huge-breasted one. You didn't miss THAT much!!!!

------------------------------

From: jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington)
Subject: Re: Best SF Film
Date: 28 Feb 85 06:25:59 GMT
To: jlong@bbnccm.ARPA

> On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX
> 11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society
> type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in
> charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are
> robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ?
> now it's starting to sound like brave new world .

This sounds an awful lot like THX 1138, George Lucas's first(?) film.
a very strange movie...

-----
PS -- George Lucas/Star Wars Trivia Question: what cell block did Han
Solo and Luke Skywalker tell Leia's guards they were transferring
Chewbacca from?
--
                                        James Steven Carrington
                                        The INGRES Project
                                        jsc@berkeley.arpa
                                        ucbvax!jsc

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Best SF Film
Date: 28 Feb 85 01:29:15 GMT

>
> Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
> SF Book of all time .
>
> -Julian Long

John Brunner.  The sequel to this is STAND ON ZANZIBAR, I believe.


                                        Muffy

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe)
Subject: re: Best SF Film
Date: 27 Feb 85 21:45:14 GMT

>From: @RUTGERS.ARPA:jlong@bbnccm.arpa
>Subject: Best SF <[DFilm
>Message-ID: <798@topaz.ARPA>
>
>From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
>
>On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX
>11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society
>type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in
>charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are
>robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ?
>now it's starting to sound like brave new world .

Sounds like you're talking about Geroge Lucas's THX1138.  I expect
there will shortly be 50 more postings to that effect.

>        Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS .
>A must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very
>old and , of course , silent .

And on that subject, how many people are aware that _Metropolis_
wasn't written by Fritz Lang?  One of my pet peeves is everyone
referring to it as "Fritz Lang's _Metropolis_" when the original
novel was actually written by Thea von Harbou.

--
======================================================================
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI                             If thy CRT offend thee, pluck
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.                    it out and cast it from thee.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: dolqci!mike@topaz (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: Re: Best SF Film
Date: 28 Feb 85 13:20:09 GMT

> > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called
> > UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title .
> This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he
> was still in school). It';s cute when you see THX 1138 on a car
> license plate in American Graffiti. . .
>
> jerry

  Lucas is notorious for that.... In Indiana Jones and The Temple of
Doom, the Nightclub that was used in the opening scenes in Shanghai
was the Club Obi-Wan.  In at least one point in each of the Star Wars
movies the number THX-1138 was used for somthing.  (usually a guard's
id or something equally obscure.  )

--

  Mike Stalnaker  {decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike
                  Be wary of strong drink: It can cause you to
                  shoot at the tax collector... and miss.

------------------------------

From: bmcg!yrdbrd@topaz (Larry J. Huntley)
Subject: Re: SF movies
Date: 27 Feb 85 22:12:08 GMT

In article <> jay@smu.UUCP writes:
>
>Great movie.  I saw it a long time ago in Dallas actually replayed
>in a theater.  It feels like a made-for-tv movie, but it's still
>good.  The thing I loved most of course was the ending.  Absolutely
>Perfect Scene!!
>
>*** SPOILER ***
>
>The hero is escaping and this girl wants to come along.  You wonder
>if you should have a happy-all's-well ending.  Then the boy and his
>dog leave their camp after a nice dinner.  Guess who was the dinner?
>Would someone please expand this ending to it's full glory?

Would someone please expand this *article* to its full NAME so that I
can decipher which great SF Movie is being discussed here?

'brd
--
Larry J. Huntley         Burroughs -(B)- Corporation
                         Advanced Systems Group  MS-703
                         10850 Via Frontera    San Diego, CA  92128
- Non Circum Copulae -   (619) 485-4544

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Best SF Film
Date: 1 Mar 85 02:02:21 GMT

REFERENCES:  <798@topaz.ARPA>, <159@cord.UUCP>

>> On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called
>> UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title .
>This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he was
>still in school). It';s cute when you see THX 1138 on a car license
>plate in American Graffiti. . .

Yes and no.  At UCLA he made a 20-minute film THX 2238 4EB.  THX 1138
is his remake of his own student film.  The license plate in AMERICAN
GRAFFITI was THX 138.  There was also a reference to the title THX
1138 in STAR WARS.  Anyone wanting to send me where they think it is,
use the address below.  On March 7, I will post the answer, and the
names of everyone who got a correct answer to me.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 85 09:32:06 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Earth II
From: Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

Sender: "Daniel S. Conde.osbunorth"@XEROX.ARPA


>If anyone could tell me, I would like to remember the name of the
>third film I mentioned. This is where 3 people and in a suspended
>animation experiment in a space station when a war breaks out. the
>orbit is changed for the station to arrive back at earth in 180
>years (when the radiation) is gone.

I think it was called Earth II.

Daniel Conde
conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 10:33:23-EST
From: Elizabeth Willey <ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: group minds

Don't leave out Ursula Le Guin's "Nine Lives", a short story about
clones.  It's been anthologized several places.  The story deals with
nine clones of the same person who have been raised together from
early infancy---they have no individual identities, cannot conceive
of themselves as being separate from each other; they are a group
mind of a kind.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 1985 15:38:16-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Group minds and LeGuin....



> From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA
>
> Ursula LeGuin wrote a short story about a group mind called "Vaster
> than Empires and More Slow".


     As I recall, LeGuin wrote another story called "Nine Lives" that
also explored the group mind concept to some degree. In this one, a
group of nine human clone-siblings (all cloned from the same parent)
are sent to work with a planetary exploration team made up of
basically normal humans. The story depicts the relationship(s)
between the clones as well as how the humans react to them. The group
mind aspects of the story are not dealt with very explicitly, but the
normal folks can't help noticing how connected and in tune the clones
seem to be with each other. Some of them speculate as to whether the
clones represent a true group mind; this possibility is brought to
the fore by the reactions of the clones when some of their group (the
clones) are killed.

     I recommend the story, but I don't know where it can be found
today; I know only that it originally appeared in "Playboy."


                                     ---  Jeff Rogers
                                          jcr@Mitre-Bedford

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 11:33 EST
From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re Illuminati

Steve Jackman Games produced a game "Illuminati" about 2-3 years ago.
As far as I know it is still in print.  The Basic game and each of 2
expansion sets cost about $6 each.  Since we are on the topic here is
a review of it.

Illuminati happens to be one of my favorite games.  It will play 2-8
players if you have both expansion sets, but 4-6 is probably optimal.
The equipment is one set of 6-8 illuminati cards, 40-100 group cards,
and lots of horrible small funny money.  The counts here are
approximate because of the additions of the expansion set, which are
nice, but you could do without reasonable well.  Each player starts
with one of the illuminati cards and some money.  The main aim is to
gain control of uncontrolled groups or groups controlled by other
players.  The latter is much more difficult.  The regular victory
condition is to control some number of groups that changes with the
number of players, but 8 is typical.  The group cards all have one
input arrow and 0-3 output arrows.  As you aquire groups you must
connect each new group to one of the output arrows of the group that
made attack to control.  One tricky part of this is that all of your
groups must fit together physically.  The groups with no output
arrows further complicate this by creating dead ends.  In play each
group in your power tree has its own income and treasury.  That is
the reason for the horrible little funny money.  Since a group card
is only about 1 1/4" x 2" you need small money to fit on top of the
card.  Us coins or regular number counters from some other game are a
good idea.  Each group can also have a number of triats.  Some of
them are staight, weird, violent, criminal, goverment, communist,
liberal, conservative,peaceful, and two others I can't remember.  One
of the pleasures of the game is the artwork on the group card and
seeing the traits assigned.  These traits also affect attemps to
control or kill groups.  It is easier to control a group with
matching traits than opposite ones with the opposite being true for
attempts to destroy a group.  Each illminati/player also has some
special ability and victory condition.  The discordant society gets
bennies in trying to control wierd groups with a win if it controls
5.

Illuminati is a "VERY" interactive game.  If you are willing to pay
for it you can affect the outcome of almost anything anyone else
tries to do.  In most attacks all of the power, defence, group
allignments...  are added up.  This yeilds the number the person must
roll less than or equal to on 2 d6.  One of the adds/subtracts is
money.  Anyone can buy plusses or minus of the number.  This can be
very frustrating as it seems whenever you try to do anything realy
good, everyone tells you not to even bother to try, because they
won't let you.  This can lead to everyone slowly getting very angry
at each other.  It is very important that people play this game in a
somewhat layed back manner, or they might end up hating each other.

In closing I will mention that the rules allow for a multiple person
win if they all can arrange a deal where they meet their victory
conditions simultaenouly.  It is very important that everyone
understand the trading rules very well.  Playing time is 2-6 hours
depending on the intensity of threats and trading.

John Mills

------------------------------

From: hpltca!marc@topaz (marc)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 21 Feb 85 06:18:00 GMT

Cooling the thing reminds me of fables of the "Glowing, Hot, Hairy
Golfball" of Josephson junction fame.  But I have another worry:

Just how exactly does one get power into(!) the thing?

Marc Clarke
hplabs!hpfcla!hpltcb!marc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Mar 85 0439-EST
From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #82
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 3 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
           Administrivia - Temporary Moderator,
                  Movies - Best/Worst SF movie (7 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 (3 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 85 04:37:09 EST
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Temporary Moderator


Hi Again,
        This will be my last digest as Saul will be back tomorrow
(Monday).  It's been great fun even if there has been a lot of
traffic and it felt like I'd never catch up.  Hope you all had as
much fun reading SF-Lovers as I had moderating it.  Keep sending the
mail (since I'm no longer moderating ;-).

Cheers,
ds

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  1 Mar 1985 07:43-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Best SF movie



        I feel that one of the better SF movies, surprisingly not
mentioned as yet, is "Collosus, The Forbin Project". For those who
haven't seen it, it was about the building of a computer that would
total automate this countries missle defense system so that we would
no longer have to worry about that aspect of our lives, the computer
was designed totally as a defensive tool (plot sound familiar). Eric
Bradden played Dr. Forbin I believe. This flick was done in a totally
believable manner, not much in special effects, but with the script
done as well as this they aren't needed. The story really gets
interesting when our computer finds out about its Russian counterpart
and decides to strike up a conversation. Good Stuff!

------------------------------

From: dartvax!tedi@topaz (Edward M. Ives)
Subject: Re: Best SF Film
Date: 28 Feb 85 22:58:34 GMT

> From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
>
>
> On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX
> 11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society
> type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in
> charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are
> robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ?
> now it's starting to sound like brave new world .  It has a real
> nail bitting ending .. but of course i wouldn't tell about that . I
> saw it in england it was in colour so must be fairly new ?? .
>
>       Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS .  A
> must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very
> old and , of course , silent .
>
> Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
> SF Book of all time .
>
> -Julian Long

I believe you are refferring to THX-1138, not UBX-11 something.
People on here mention it once in awhile; it is worthy of note mainly
because it was George Lucas' first film.  It was kind of 1984ish with
people running around with bald heads and lots of bright white sets.
Doesn't seem quite the "Best SF" material, though.
                                            -Ted Ives
                                        Dartmough College
                                        I mean DartmouTh
                                    philabs!ihnp4!dartvax!tedi

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Mar 85 08:17:55-MST
From: Peter Badovinatz <BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: Metropolis and Brunner (some SPOILER included)

>        Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS .
>A must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very
>old and , of course , silent .

The original _Metropolis_ was an incredible film.  Has anyone seen
the re-released version with the modern score(much of it by Queen)?
How did it compare with the original?

>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best SF
>Book of all time .

>-Julian Long

John Brunner wrote _The Sheep Look Up_, about a U.S. on the decline.
The writing style is somewhat strange and not at all a "traditional"
construction.

(begin **SPOILER**)

woman in England speaking to her husband:
"I can smell something burning dear.  Better call the fire brigade."

husband:
"They'd have a long trip to put it out.  That's America you smell."

(end **SPOILER**)

Some of Brunner's other stuff includes: _Stand on Zanzibar_, written
in much the same style as _The Sheep Look Up_, and just as good in my
opinion.  It has a similar theme as _... Sheep ..._ but a more
optimistic ending.  _The Crucible of Time_ is written in a more
"traditional" style and covers a civilisation about to be destroyed
by a natural catastrophe, its history and development.  _The
Shockwave Rider_ provides some excellent views of a world-wide
computer- based information network and the effects of a tapeworm or
two.

All four of the above are recommended reading.

"COINCIDENCE:  You weren't paying attention to the other half of what
               was going on."
                         --"The Hipcrime Vocab" by Chac C. Mulligan

Peter R Badovinatz               ARPA: BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20
University of Utah Dept.         UUCP: decvax!utah-cs!badovin
 of Computer Science

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 07:34 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: THX-1138, The Sheep Look Up

    Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 16:54:09 EST
    From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
    Subject: Best SF Film

    Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
    SF Book of all time .

That was John Brunner.

    From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan)
    Subject: Re: Best SF Film
    Date: 27 Feb 85 06:22:39 GMT

    > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called
    > UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title .

    This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he
    was still in school). It's cute when you see THX 1138 on a car
    license plate in American Graffiti. . .

The original film (a short) was done when he was in college (at
USC?).  The full length film was his first studio production.  By the
way, I believe the plate was THX138, since California plates had a
maximum of six characters in the sixties.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 12:14 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: THX-1138 and The Sheep Look Up.

> This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he
> was still in school). It's cute when you see THX 1138 on a car
> license plate in American Graffiti. . .

Also note that the new super Dolby system developed by Lucasfilms is
called THX.


> Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
> SF Book of all time .

This is written by John Brunner.  He also wrote The Shockwave Rider,
an excellent book that should be on the Computers in Fiction list.

Helpful Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Mar 85 10:25:19-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Sheep?

_The Sheep Look Up_ is by John Brunner.  Not English, to the best of
my knowledge...

                                                Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 85 16:59:43 EST
From: That young upstart again <trudel@ru-blue.arpa>
Subject: Re: Great Movie



>Julian R. Long writes-

>... i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society
>type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in
>charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are
>robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ?

********WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!! ALIEN SPOILER APPROACHING********

This movie is THX 1138, and is George Lucas' first film. I have heard
that the film was originally his graduation thesis, but Universal(?)
picked it up, and funded a remake.  THX 1138 is the main character in
the movie , and was played by Robert Duvall.  The society is geared
towards production, and NOT taking drugs (stimulants, barbituates,
etc.) is against the law.  There are automated/non-intelligent
confessional/therapists that constantly repeat "I understand...I
see...Hmmm...Could you be more specific?..." when you sit in them.
The police were indeed robots, and acted pleasantly all the time.
THX's wife, LUH something, finds that life without drugs is great,
and stops giving drugs to THX.  Over time, he gets quite ill from
withdrawal, and, clutching his stomach, visits one of the
confessionals,where the conversation goes something like:
        THX:  I feel sick
        Confessional:  I see...
        THX:  (Doubling over)  I really mean it!
        Confessional: Could you be more specific?...
The rest I leave to your imagination.  THX and his wife are captured,
and sentenced.  LUH is returned to an embryo state, and THX, feeling
better for not taking drugs, is put in asylum, because anyone who
doesn't want drugs must be crazy.  He breaks out of the asylum with a
crazed hologram, and more happens that I will not reveal, for fear of
revealing too much already.

********SPOILER OFF********

All in less than all, I thought that this was a well thought out,
well made film.  Unfortunately, movies of this type do not get widely
released, and end up on Night Owl-type TV.  It's worth at least one
viewing, so check it out.

J. Dunsel Trudel
<Trudel@ru-blue.arpa>

Dunsel?!??  Jim, what does it mean?

"A witty saying proves nothing, but saying something pointless gets
people's attention"                             J. D. Trudel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 1985  15:00 EST
From: ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Boskone [a regrettably long message]

I was glad to see that I am not alone in feeling a bit disappointed
with Boskones lately, especially this year.  For whatever reason, I
didn't find much interesting or stimulating about the convention, and
I don't think it will be worthwhile for me to go next year.  Maybe
we're getting jaded.  However, I can't agree with many of Dan's
points.  In many respects, the problem may be one of a changing face
of sf...

   From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison)
   Subject: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution:flamethrower set on
            broil)

   "...I was so disgusted with the fall of NESFA that I didn't bother
   going to the con Sunday and Monday."

   "the limited events available were for the most part well run"

NESFA's fall from what???
It bothers me a little that you didn't stay for the whole weekend and
give the convention a chance.  How can you judge the events as
limited if you didn't stay for a third (or more) of them?

   "They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission <=
   , the same as for the full event...the people working the
   registration desk offered the stunningly lame excuse that "with
   these badges we can't tell one day people from all-weekend
   people"."

$22 is steep; two of my friends didn't come because they felt one day
for $22 isn't worth it...I paid in advance, myself ($17). As for the
i.d., it's simple; have two different types of badges, or a badge and
a hand-stamp, or a sticker system for badges, or...

   "In less than 10 minutes in the registration area I heard *at
   least* 10 people express surprise and disgust...but they still
   paid."

Exactly.  They paid.  Until the convention organizers price
themselves out of the market---which, with ~3,000 people at the con,
is going to take a while---they will pay, and pay, and pay.

   "What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a
   uniform $22.00: greed.  Yep, GREED.  The *** are buying a
   clubhouse and are using fen from all over the northeast to
   generate money for their relatively private use.  ... this is a
   gross violation and ripoff of everything fandom has stood for.

I'm sorry to disagree with you here, because I do agree with your
outraged feelings.  But NESFA has a right, I guess, to raise money
and spend it as they please, same as the Girl Scouts or the Modern
Language Association.  They are "Inc.", a business entity, not
nonprofit as far as I know (correct me; I may be wrong).  As for
fandom...what was it fandom stood for that is being ripped off or
betrayed?  SF is Big Business, meaning Big Bucks, nowadays.
Entrepeneurial fen are taking advantage of the oppor- tunity to make
a profit.

   "I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video
   schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff (no
   not him!) off the streets coming in "just to see the movies"."

   dan davison

Now that peeves me.  I'm one of those riff-raff, then, because half
the fun (more, maybe) for me is the movies, which were, let's be
frank, stale this year.  And last year.  The panel programming, which
originally attracted me to Boskone, is getting continually weaker.
The best one this year was on Sunday, discussing "Building a
Society", and even it contained little that was in-depth,
illuminating, or really memorable and interesting.  Many of the
authors on panels just seemed to be going through the motions...like
NESFA.

Eliz.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Furthermor...

"One of Robert Heinlein's books (The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?) had a
computer named Mycroft, who helped the young hero achieve his
rightful estate."  This sounds very different than my edition of the
book, in which a computer called Mycroft, or Mike, helps a bunch of
revolutionaries overthrow an oppressive government...but it might be
a good plot for Star Trek IV.  (I for the money! II for the money!
III for the money!  IV for the money!)

------------------------------

From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron@brl-tgr.ARPA>)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on
Subject: broil)
Date: 28 Feb 85 02:34:23 GMT

> 3 AM is way too early to shut down a party? That sounds pretty late
> to me.

Ah come on.  Even thought they lost money, we had parties 'til dawn
at Constellation.

-Ron

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22
Date: 1 Mar 85 17:15:07 GMT

First off, I would like to say that I enjoyed Boskone 22 (for the
most part).  The Art Show was excellent, the hucksters room had space
to move in, the movie room was quite adequate, even for Dr. Jeckyl.
However, I must protest the movies, and interface with the hotel.

The movies were quite horrible this year.  The only good ones were
the silent, the slide show (Phil Folio, et al), and Jitlov.
Otherwise, it seemed like the same shorts were shown, and the feature
films were really lacking.  Even if nobody showed Star Trek, etc., I
am sure that better movies could have been found.

Interface with the hotel being lacking is understandable.  Given that
the Marriott didn't quite expect 3000+ lunatics roaming the corridors
til dawn, it is amazing that things went as smoothly as they did.
However, a BIG problem (for fen with any bucks at all), was the dress
code in the restaurants.  NESFA really should have checked this out
beforehand, and either warned us to dress in a manner befitting those
who spend lots of money for a beer, or (even better) informing the
hotel of the manner of fan attending conventions, and getting them to
relax the rules for the duration.  (Yes, I realize that one
restaurant allowed scruffy fen in, but it wasn't quite enough.

Programming also wasn't too hot, but I agree with the assumption that
we may be "growing out of" some of it.  After all, how many panels on
world building do you want to go to.

There will always be problems with hotels, elevators, restaurants,
unruly fans, etc.  Taking all into consideration, NESFA did a good
job again this year.  Now if they can only get some better movies....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 85 1612-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #83
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:

               Administrivia - Return Home,
               Books - Anthony & Brunner & Chalker &
                       Herbert & Simak & Wilson (2 msgs),
               Films - Five Million Years to Earth (2 msgs) &
                       Brainstorm & Worst SF Film ,
               Television - Space Patrol & Quark,
               Miscellaneous - SF Book Club & Button Help (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 85 13:09:08 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Administrivia

Hello folks,
        As most of you have probably figured out by now, I have been
away for this past week.  I would like to thank Dave Steiner
(postumously - he died from something he DIGESTed) for keeping the
digest running while I was away on business.  There are many
requests from you piled up in my mail and I will get to them as soon
as I can.  It may take me a day or two to straighten everything out
and get back into things here.
        NOTE:  Issues #63 and #64 have apparently gone the way of
the dinosaur.  There seems to have been some glitch in the mailer
somewhere and as a result EVERYTHING for those two issues have
disappeared.  Sorry about that.
        And now on with the show....

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  5 Mar 1985 07:09:50-PST
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: Xanth

OK, I've heard enough complaining about Anthony's Xanth series.
Sure, we all know it's hack writing; no challenge, simple
characters, etc. I gave up on it after the first few books. Why
can't all those who are complaining simply do so also, and shut up.

Have none of you ever written a piece of software (or whatever else
you might do) even though it was not ultimately challenging, nor
universally significant?  Perhaps, maybe, because that's your
primary source of income, and you agree with me (and Piers Anthony)
that money is worth having?

In the second volume of Bio Of A Space Tyrant, in a long self-bio
section, Anthony explains a lot about his writing style, personal
life, and projects.  He mentions Xanth, and explains that he writes
it because (paraphrasing):

      a. Writing is his business, and he likes to earn money.

      b. Writing cheap, humorous, light fantasy is easy, quick, and
         not unenjoyable.

      c. Lots of people out there love cheap, humorous, light
         fantasy.

      d. Because of points (b) and (c), cheap, humorous, light
         fantasy is very profitable.

Personally, I wish he didn't spend time on projects like Xanth,
since I'd rather see serious stuff (like Bio and Incarnations) come
more quickly. But that's his business (in both senses of the word),
and complaining is unfair and senseless.  If you don't like Xanth,
don't buy it. If NOBODY likes Xanth, or if too few people like it,
it will cease to be profitable and there won't be any more -- and
the poor guy will have to struggle by on what he can make honestly!

        /dave

Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062

orac::butenhof
butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof

------------------------------

From: ISM780!geoff@topaz
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 3 Mar 85 06:42:19 GMT

>> Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the
>> Best SF Book of all time .
>>
>> -Julian Long
>
>John Brunner.  The sequel to this is STAND ON ZANZIBAR, I believe.
>                                        Muffy

John Brunner is correct, however I DON'T think SOZ is a sequel to
TSLU, they both occur in similar "worlds", but are otherwise
unrelated.  Each book ends in such a way as to eliminate the
possibility of the other book happening on the same planet.  (of
course, I could be wrong, but I've read them each more than 4 times,
and I'd like to think I'd have noticed).  (BTW, both books are
highly recommendable)

         Geoffrey Kimbrough -- Director of Dangerous Activities
                        INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.
                         ...!ima!ism780!geoff

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Mar 85 11:04:05-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Chalker

The Four Lords of the Diamond seems to be getting bad press around
here.  I liked it, anyway, and I didn't notice any deformed women in
it.  Certainly the series ends on a somewhat apocalyptic note, but
it's worth reading.  It's actually about as "hard" sf as he has
written.

The Dancing Gods books are fun if you can put up with a series that
is a parody of itself (a barbarian named Joe?!?).  War of Shadows is
also a good standalone, particularly if you like quadruple-bluff
what-the-bleep-is-going-on stories.

His other stuff has mostly been mentioned.  I agree that his
politics tend to repeat in most of his books, but this goes for most
authors I have read.

--Rob

------------------------------

From: ncoast!chandave@topaz (Davy Chan)
Subject: DUNE books
Date: 3 Mar 85 07:31:25 GMT

  Does anyone have some information on any books after the fourth
DUNE book entitled "God Emperor of Dune".  I just read through all
four books and am breaking out in hives waiting to see how the next
one will be.

Later much...
d.c.

------------------------------

From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: 'Way Station' - Clifford D. Simak (& Clarke) (& SFBC)
Date: 4 Mar 85 01:06:02 GMT

Yes, WAY STATION is a good novel, and greatly underdiscussed.  I
haven't read it in a long time, but I still remember enjoying it
when I was twelve, and several times since then.  If any of you have
read "The Big Back Yard" (see THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME,
volume 2B), let me tell you that WAY STATION has the same kind of
quietly escalating dramatic power, except better.

        -Paul S. R. Chisholm
        ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc
        ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 23:53:14-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Illuminatus books listed

> From: psuvm!d3u
> Here is as far as I know the complete list of books by R.A.Wilson
> in the series
>
> The Illuminatus! trilogy: consists of The Golden Apple, The Eye
> in the Pyramid and Leviathan. They were cowritten with Robert
> O'Shea. About a year ago they were reissued together in a single
> volume.  ...  Cosmic Trigger...
>
> Masks of the Illuminati...
>
> The Illuminati Papers...
>
> Schrodinger's Cat  trilogy   consists of The Universe Next Door,
> The Trick Top Hat, and The Homing Pigeons...
>
> The Earth Will Shake   Volume One of the Illuminati Chronicles...

You forgot THE SEX MAGICIANS, Sheffield House (paperback), 1973.
This is a hardcore porno novel featuring some characters from the
Illuminatus books. Imagine Markoff Chaney dressed in a Teddy
Snowcrop suit, licking orange juice from a woman's private parts...
It's not just for breakfast anymore...

The book also has scenes set in ancient Atlantis, with such
characters as Klarkash-Ton and Luv-Kerapht.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1985 12:18:58 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Illuminatus Game Update

     Since I posted my message on the Illuminati game from Steve
Jackson, I have discovered that the firm has just released a new
addition: Expansion Set #3.  This unit, slightly cheaper than the
others because it has a plastic bag rather than a box, does not add
new Illuminati groups or other groups to the game.  Instead, it adds
new rules and pieces for two enjoyable extensions: brainwashing and
propaganda.  By using the rules correctly, I have probably
engendered in the readers of this article the desire to go purchase
the game.  (Or maybe I've just been brainwashed to believe that...)

------------------------------

From: siemens!steve@topaz
Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s
Date: 1 Mar 85 17:45:00 GMT

Five Million Years to Earth is a HORRIBLE film!!  It's one of those
schlock things where the scientist sees something inexplicable,
dreams up a ridiculous (i.e. almost totally unsupported by evidence)
explanation for it, and this explanation is taken as fact for the
rest of the movie.  Movies like this spread more wrong ideas about
science than creationism!  (well, maybe I'm exaggerating a
little...)  If it were about the occult it would be a pseudo-science
fiction film.  Perhaps it should be called an anti-science fiction
film?  In fact, the more I think about this, the more I like the
connection with creationism.  The 'science' in a movie like this is
very much like the 'science' in creationism -- based on
nonunderstanding of what science is really about, based on jumping
to conclusions, etc.

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: Five Million Years to Earth
Date: 2 Mar 85 16:31:46 GMT

>I have seen 'FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH' a couple times on TV, but
>I would hardly classify it as one of the best SF movies I've seen.
>It doesn't really hold a candle to many films mentioned previously.

Obviously these are matters of taste.  I like a science fiction film
with a strong idea.  Something that takes some thinking about.  I
can think of no other science fiction film that I find so thought
provoking.  I will also add that I know a lot of people who rate
this film at least in their top five.

>I thought it was more like a Horror film, a genre for which I don't
>really care.

Odd, I see very little horror element in the film.  Less than in
ANDROMEDA STRAIN.

>Yes, it had some interesting ideas, but hardly enough to justify
>'Best SF Flick'.

What are your criteria for "best" then?

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM)
Date: 2 Mar 85 16:09:07 GMT

> What's to explain? It was meant only to be a throwaway --- a gag
> pulled on the one guy by the other. There was no intent on
> developing it as a concept; the story moved off in another
> direction totally. Now, I agree that it's a fascinating idea that
> deserves a full treatment of it's own, but it really had no
> relevance to the story in BRAINSTORM, except very superficially.
>
> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

I also think that it matters.  The problem is that the BRAINSTORM
idea is so rich in implications.  Even a long novel would leave most
of the implications untouched.  When technology can raise man to be
a totally empathetic creature, completely understanding the thoughts
of another, the nature of all human relationships the invention
touches will change.  The at-death-experience is one of the least
interesting implications they could follow.  (Still for the idea and
the ideas the film does have, I like the film a lot.)

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Subject: WORST SF Film
Date: 03 Mar 85 20:50:02 PST (Sun)
From: Operations <ops@uci-icse>

Who could forget that computer stinker Superman III?  For example:
How do you gain access to the corporation's accounting files?  You
type 'OVERIDE ALL SECURITY'.  A real zero.

Doug Krause
dkrause@uci-icsb.ARPA

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix241@topaz ({)
Subject: re: SF show from the fifties
Date: 1 Mar 85 20:30:28 GMT

Does the show _Space Patrol_ jog any memories in netland?

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

From: udenva!zmh10@topaz (zmh10)
Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark
Date: 26 Feb 85 20:40:39 GMT

> As I remember, Quark aired about 4 or five years ago and there
> were only 4 episodes.  I enjoyed it while it lasted.  Besides
> Quark, the captain, the second in command was the "plant" being
> whose name was something like Ficus which is a Latin work having
> to do with plants.  I can't remember the twins names, but I
> believe they were clones.  The other member of the crew was
> another alien who kept changing gender and was called Gene/Jean.
>
> Thier ship was an interplanetary garbage truck and they went
> around collecting space baggies.  Can't seem to remember any of
> the plots.  Probably just as well.

The clones were both named Betty.  One plot involved Quark aging
prematurely, one involved the crew meeting their evil doubles, and
so on, all spoofing various Star Trek episodes.  I forget the
robot's name, but he looked a lot like the one from Lost in Space.
He often had personal crises and fell in love with other machines.

Steven Howard.  ex-Quark viewer.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 13:04:44 PST
From: Dave Suess <zeus@AEROSPACE.ARPA>
Subject: SF Book Club

I have seen two kinds of postings on the SF Book Club in the many
that I've seen lately:
        1. poster is quitting, books now cost too much.
        2. poster is active, but continuously re-joins so as
           to obtain offer designed to attract new members.

I'm in a third category (long-time member, sad that prices are going
up but intending to remain a member) and was wondering if *everyone*
else is in the other two.  If so, I can extrapolate that I, too,
will someday be driven out; I'd hate that, since the postage on the
reply forms is well worth the bargain I pick up (admittedly mostly
on older titles) a few times a year.  I enjoy even a
mediocre-quality hardback much more than the smaller, can't-prop-up
paperback.  Am I the only "chump" in my category?

        Dave Suess              zeus@aerospace.ARPA

Anecdote:
Once (I haven't checked lately) I even wrote in to ask if it were OK
to *overpay* my balance, expecting to order more shortly.  The SFBC
wrote back to say if I kept a credit balance (and it was very low -
$10, I think), I could get a 10% discount on orders.  I did, and
continued for quite a while before getting too busy -- and I assume
that this service no longer exists, considering the not-so-slow rise
in prices.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 3 Mar 85 06:13:13-EST
From: geoffrey dov cooper <MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: imp of the peverse
To: ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA

        the true name of the imp of the peverse is murphy.  it is
mentioned repeatedly in the warlock unlocked by cristopher stasheff
as the arch enemy of the catholic sect of saint vidicon.

"praying to saint vidicon will occasionally get random bugs out.
any port in a storm don't ya' know"

                      shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa

insanity is just an overdose of reality.

------------------------------

From: reed!todd@topaz (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Help with button
Date: 2 Mar 85 22:20:28 GMT

> From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA>
>
> I have a button that reads
>       I am the Imp of the Perverse (knowing this won't help you
> either)
> Question is what does it mean?

It refers to an essay by Edgar Allen Poe called The Imp of the
Perverse.
                                    Todd Ellner

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 14:45-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Help with Button

>I have a button that reads
>
>     I am the Imp of the Perverse
>       (knowing this won't help you either)
>
>That I bought and stuck on our MILNET IMP.  Actually, I had to by
>another one because I think our IMP hardware guy took the first
>one.  Question is what does it mean.  Does this relate to some
>book?  Can anyone help with a reference?  Please reply by mail.

        I think one possible answer is a line (or the theme) from
NATIONAL LAMPOONS "DETERIORATA" sung by Melissa Manchester. The line
is "You are a fluke of the universe. You have no right to be here.
Whether you believe it or not the universe is laughing behind your
back."... and so forth and so on.
                                        wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 85 1644-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #84
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & Brin & Clarke (4 msgs),
              Films - Star Trek (5 msgs),
              Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  3 Mar 1985 21:17:14-PST
From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: DOUGLAS ADAMS INTERVIEW

        About 4 moons ago (and an unknown number of digests) someone
mentioned that through a downlink TV reciever, they had seen half an
interview with Douglas Adams.  Well this Sunday I saw the Whole
interview.  The piece was done for the PBS show "NEW TECH TIMES".
The segment was covering interactive fiction (beyond DUNGEON).  He
talked about the movie, which is going to be done by the people who
did "Ghostbusters".  He also talked about getting "hooked" on
computers and how it lead him to doing the "Hitchhikers..." in that
form.  He also mentioned that the whole game would take about 5 days
straight to play and that it generally followed the book but not
slavishly.
        BTW the person who saw the Adams half didn't miss much.
Mort, the moderator from the NTT is not what I would call a great
interviewer.  If it hadn't been for his notes and the fact that I'm
sure Adams had been well briefed beforehand it would of fallen on
its face.

ps Adams was in New York and NTT comes out of the U. of
Wisconson...so much for the sat link.
                                                Jim Feldman
                                        aka Ron Post of TTR

TTR is a trademark of Trans-Temporal Research:
"When it ABSOLUTLY has to be there yesterday...TTR"

------------------------------

Date: Sat 2 Mar 85 19:58:16-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Brin Fans Rejoice!

David Brin fans will be pleased to learn that Bantam will be
publishing his two newest books in late fall.  One will be POSTMAN,
(one assumes it will be based on his stories in IASFM), and the
other will be THE UPLIFT WAR.  The second may be what was called
GORILLA as a working title, but I'm not sure.

Also, Gregg Press will be putting out a quality hardcover of
STARTIDE RISING.

Thanks to the great George Flynn for buying LOCUS with 1st class
postage!!
                        wz

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Pointers please?
Date: 1 Mar 85 15:02:57 GMT

From Susser.PASA@Xerox.ARPA:
>> I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds.
>
> The Fire Lizards in Anne McCaffrey's Pern series had racial
> memory.  So did Paul Muad'dib Atreides ("Dune") and his children
> and his sister Alia.  Keith Laumer's "The Infinite Cage" has a
> character who can draw upon the memories of all of humanity
> somewhat telepathically.

There are two kinds of racial memory (of sorts) in Clarke's
CHILDHOOD'S END: when Joan "remembered" the catalog designation of
the Overlords' home base, and a curious kind of "inverse" racial
memory linking the last days of the human race to the shape of the
Overlords, resulting in the classical image of the devil back in our
prehistory (racial memory as a tape loop?).

> And to all you people in net land: I remember a short story (by
> Heinlein or Asimov?) that involved a starship manned by a
> multi-racial crew coming to evacuate Earth before Sol goes nova.
> A few of the crew were part of a group mind.  This was important
> when a landing party was trapped in a trans-Atlantic subway and
> cut off from radio communications.  Anyone know the author/title?

Clarke again.  I think it was "RESCUE MISSION"; it's in THE SENTINEL.

Brandon Allbery,
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa,
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet (etc.)
6504 Chestnut Road Independence,
Ohio 44131 +1 216 524 1416
CIS 74106,1032

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 21:30:17 pst
From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley
Subject: Dates for Clarke titles

> #1 is actually two books (same book, different edition) by Arthur
> Clarke: "Against the Fall of Night" (circa 1957), or "The City and
> the Stars" (circa 1961).

> Not sure about the dates - where is Jayembee when you need him?!

        Well, I might not be Jayembee (I have prettier blue eyes),
but I can tell you:

  Against the Fall of Night. [New York]: Gnome Press, [1953]

  The City and the Stars. [New York]: Harcourt Brace and Company,
[1956]

Use this information wisely, you can never tell when there will be a
test.

"Bibliography isn't my business, it's my hobby"

                        Joe Kalash
                        unisoft!kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 23:20:32-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT/CITY AND THE STARS

> From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA   (Mark Maxson)
> #1 is actually two books (same book, different edition) by Arthur
> Clarke: "Against the Fall of Night" (circa 1957), or "The City and
> the Stars" (circa 1961).
>
> He rewrote the story while on a cruise ship to fight off boredom,
> but in all honesty, I think the original was better. Not sure
> about the dates - where is Jayembee when you need him?!
>
> "Bibliography is none of my business..."

ZZZZZZZZZZZ...... Huh? What? Oh, ah, right here, Max. Lessee,
AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT was written in 1937, published in
STARTLING STORIES, November 1938 and in book form by Gnome Press in
1953, with numerous paperback editions. THE CITY AND THE STARS was
published in 1956 by Harcourt, Brace, followed again by numerous
paperback editions. What's bizarre is that both versions continue to
stay in print as separate books.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: 'Way Station' - Clifford D. Simak (& Clarke) (& SFBC)
Date: 4 Mar 85 01:06:02 GMT

From THE LION OF COMMARRE/AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT ((c) 1968?):
Clarke write AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT between 1937 and 1946.  He
wrote and sold several other stories, then (after John W.  Campbell
turned it down), got it published in the November 1948 STARTLING
STORIES.  It appeared in hardcover (Gnome Press) in 1953, and has
been reissued since than, more than once, by Pyramid.  THE CITY AND
THE STARS was published by Harcort, Brace, and World in 1956,
    and has remained in print since then.
    All the time, I assumed that the new version would
    completely replace the older novel, but AGAINST THE
    FALL OF NIGHT showed no tendency to fade away;
    indeed, to my slight shagrin, some readers preferred
    it its successor, and it has now been reissued several
    times in paperback (Pyramid Books).  One day I would
    like to conduct a poll to discover which is the more
    popular version; I have long ago given up trying to
    decide which is the better one.  [Clarke]

I like 'em both.

        -Paul S. R. Chisholm
        ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc
        ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 16:10 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek Movies

>[Some people where talking about extra footage inserted into ST:TMP
>and STII when on TV.]

George Takei (Sulu) talked here at MIT last Monday (Feb 25), and I
think he said that the additional footage on TV is in the video
cassette version.  He also said that there were additional scenes
shot, some of which are in the video, and some not.  His favorite of
those, as he put it, "playing on the cutting room floor," was one
wherein Sulu gets his command, and he's going to try to get Harve
Bennett (sp?) to reinsert it in STIV, which will start shooting in
September, for release in June 1986.  Also, some of the episodes now
being released (at a low, low price of $14.95 each) have additional
scenes.

He also mentioned the possibility of a new /Star Trek/ TV series.
Since neither Shatner nor Nimoy was interested in doing the show on
a regular basis, Takei is trying to convince the powers that be that
the show should be called /Captain Sulu/.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  3 Mar 1985 12:47:41-PST
From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Rabbit, you're - you're
From: despicable!!)
Subject: Star Trek I/II - Extended Length ST I

>From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
>> The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS
>> end up with this 'augmented' version?  Why didn't this end up in
>> the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape?
>>
>> The second one of course is when WILL it?
>>
>> John Francini, DEC Maynard
>
>     I too noticed some of this additional footage; not all that
>John reports, but at least one scene that he didn't mention:
>shortly after Kirk returns from the genesis cave, he and Spock are
>climbing through the Enterprise due to malfunctioning elevators.
>Kirk says to Spock, "That young man -- he's my son!" To which Spock
>replies with a sarcastic "Faaascinating." At least I didn't
>remember this from the theatrical release.
>     Surely everyone remembers when ST:TMP was first shown by ABC
>and was expanded quite a bit in order to fill out a three hour time
>slot.  I liked this version of ST:TMP quite a bit better than the
>theatrical version; is this expanded version available on any
>medium?

Well, if you want into any reasonably-complete video tape store, you
should be able to find the 'Extended-Length' version of ST:TMP
available for sale or rent.  In the Natick/Framingham area, two
places that have it are Video Plus on route 126 and Videosmith on
Route 9.

[These locations are all in the greater Boston area, for all those
out-of-Mass. readers.]

John Francini
Francini%Cygnus.DEC@Decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 07:48:22-PST
From: rcodyer%bailey.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Spock here,ready to beam up...)
Subject: another st4 plot???

I've been reading more about possible ST4 movie plots on Compuserve.
Please remember, I'm only the messenger. The latest is an all-out
war between the Federation and the Klingons, I assume over the
Genesis project. This could be true, since in ST3, there were
"Galactic Conferences" going on over Genesis. On the other hand,
I've also read that producer Harve Bennet and director Nimoy have
just started recruiting writers. If true, how could anyone know the
plot? A war between the Feds and the Klingons could be a good plot,
if a litte more imagination is put into it. However, such a plot
might not appeal to non-trekkies. Any comments?

"So we have war. We didn't want it, but there it is."

"Curious how you humans manage to obtain that which you do not
want."

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry)
Subject: Star Trek III
Date: 4 Mar 85 16:02:47 GMT

ST III is finally out on videotape.  It's also cheap!

Now, where can I get ST II with the additional scenes that were run
on ABC.  Contrary to popular myth, they are NOT on the general
release video- tape.

Mikki

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 23:04:38-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: STAR TREK II on ABC

> From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Francini)
> The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS
> end up with this 'augmented' version?  Why didn't this end up in
> the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape?
>
> The second one of course is when WILL it?

[The text of this answer also appeared in net.startrek as a response
to different posting.]

Remember when STAR WARS appeared on CBS a year ago? The ratings were
abysmal. Why, when SW was one of the top money-makers of all time?
Because by the time it appeared on CBS, most of the people who cared
about seeing it already had a copy of the tape/disk, or had rented
such, or had seen the movie a few months before on HBO (and probably
taped it from there, too).
        Adding scenes to the two TREK movies, or the two SUPERMAN
movies for that matter, for their network screening was done to give
a reason for those folks who already had the movies on tape or had
seen them on cable to watch the network tv showing. This is a
perfectly resonable thing to do, and I enjoy having these various
alternate versions around.

What pissed me off royally about this adding of scenes to WRATH OF
KHAN is that there was no mention anywhere in TV GUIDE or anywhere
else that there were going to be scenes added. With STAR TREK---THE
MOTION PICTURE and SUPERMAN---THE MOVIE, there was heavy
advertisement much in advance that there was going to be additional
material. The other Sunday, however, after checking TV GUIDE and
seeing no mention of extra material, I assumed that there would be
none, and so, didn't bother watching it, let alone taping it. Why
should I have? I have the film on Beta Hi-Fi tape. By not
advertising the extra scenes, they probably lost quite a few
viewers. Well, I can always hope that they'll re-release the
videotape with the extra material like they did with ST---TMP.

> From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford       (Jeff Rogers)
>     Surely everyone remembers when ST:TMP was first shown by ABC
> and was expanded quite a bit in order to fill out a three hour
> time slot.  I liked this version of ST:TMP quite a bit better than
> the theatrical version; is this expanded version available on any
> medium?

Yes, it is. As I said above, ST---TMP was re-released on
videotape/disk in its expanded form. As far as I know, both versions
of the film are still "in print" on tape and disk, though I believe
that the expanded version is the only one available in VHS Stereo or
Beta Hi-Fi formats.  This is unlike CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD
KIND, of which only the "Special Edition" is available on videotape
(to say nothing of the tv version, which combines all of the
elements of both theatrical versions).  I don't think that the tv
versions of either of the Superman movies are available on tape,
either.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  5 Mar 1985 00:26:32-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: DR. WHO cancellation

> From: Alan Greig (Dundee, Scotland) <Alan%dct@UCL-CS.ARPA>
> The BBC announced yesterday (27th February 85) that no more
> episodes of Dr. Who would be made for at least the next 18
> months....  If they are allowed to get away with this it could
> well spell the end of Dr. Who for good and killing off a program
> with over 100 million fans worldwide...  After 21 years they cant
> kill the Doctor now !

So (he asks snidely), who's going to throw the celebratory party?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Mar 85 1704-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #85
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asprin & Henderson (2 msgs) & LeGuin &
                   Palmer (2 msgs) & Books for Writers &
                   Story Request Answered,
           Films - Five Million Years to Earth
           Television - V

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Asprin's Mythical Books
Date: 27 Feb 85 18:26:42 GMT

For those of you who've been avoiding the Phil Foglio comic book
versions of Robert Asprin's Myth books, _Myth Conceptions_ has just
arrived in Ace paperback.  It bears a cover by Walter Velez, who
does the covers for the Thieve's World books, and will be filed
right along side, so look carefully or it might just blend in.

According to the inside cover, _Myth Directions_ is due in June, and
_Hit or Myth_ in September.  Something to look forward to.

[Personally, I find Foglio's art fairly annoying.  On the other
hand, I like Velez's covers a lot.]
                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

Subject: Request answer
Date: 02 Mar 85 18:43:28 PST (Sat)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        Yeah, the movie 'The People' was indeed based on Zenna
Henderson's books.  I have not seen it since I was a kid, and so
cannot recall it well enough to give it an accurate rating.  I like
her books, though.  It was a real pisser when I heard she had died.
        In the movie, by the way, the character of Dr. Curtis, the
human who learns about, and then is accepted into, a group of the
People was played by ( get this ) William Shatner.  I don't remember
any more of the cast.
                                Dave Godwin
                                The Memory Man

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  2 Mar 1985 15:13:16-PST
From: stan%hare.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Stanley Rabinowitz)
Subject: Re: TV movie based on Henderson's PILGRIMAGE

In response to jcr's question about a made-for-TV movie based on
Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE:

Yes, the movie is based on Zenna Henderson's novels.  In fact, it
follows several chapters in the book very closely.  It's one of my
favorite SF movies.  It shows in the Boston area about once a year.
I don't remember most of the actors, other than William Shatner who
plays the doctor.  The movie is called "The People".

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 23:33:48-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Le Guin's "Nine Lives"

["Nine Lives"? Isn't that a cat food?]

> From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford       (Jeff Rogers)
>      As I recall, LeGuin wrote another story called "Nine Lives"
> that also explored the group mind concept to some degree....
>
>      I recommend the story, but I don't know where it can be found
> today; I know only that it originally appeared in "Playboy."

Well, it's appeared in a plethora of out-of-print anthologies, but
its most accessible appearance is in Le Guin's collection THE WIND'S
TWELVE QUARTERS.

Incidentally, this is the only story by Le Guin which has appeared
under a "pseudonym" (at least, she considers it such). In PLAYBOY,
it was published under the genderless by-line of "U. K. Le Guin".
Apparently, the PLAYBOY editors weren't sure that their readers
would go for a story by a woman. So much for Hefner's claim to be
supportive of women's rights. Of course, this *did* happen in 1969,
some time before a lot of men got their heads straightened.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 85 15:54:09 EST
From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH
Subject: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer

"Emergence" is David R. Palmer's first novel.  It was issued by
Bantam in paperback last November.  Emergence is based on the
novelette "Emergence" and the novella "Seeking" which appeared in
the January 5, 1981 and February 1983 issues of Analog magazine.
Rewritten versions of these stories comprise the first third of the
novel.  These stories won Palmer a Nebula nomination, two Hugo
nominations, and two John W. Campbell nominations for best new
writer.  And these were his first two stories!  Emergence chronicles
the adventures of 11-year-old Candy Smith-Foster.  She is a
disease-immune superhuman homo post hominem, "man who follows man",
created by fetuses exposed to a flu epidemic.  A biowar has wiped
out homo sapiens.  Hominems are divided into two classes, the AAs,
recognized, studied, and given all the advantages in life, and the
ABs, with ordinary upbringings that turned many into sociopaths.
Armed with an AA address list, Candy sets out with her pet macaw
Terry on a quest to find AAs, solve the mystery of why they have all
moved away, while meeting up with other people, both good and bad.

Spider Robinson's cover blurb states "This is probably the best
first novel I have ever read."  I completely agree.  The two Analog
stories were easily as good as their awards competition.  Do other
people have their choices for best first novel?  Possibilities that
come to mind are Brin, Varley, and Forward.

------------------------------

From: draves@harvard.ARPA (Richard Draves)
Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer
Date: 4 Mar 85 07:17:21 GMT

I enjoyed Emergence while I was reading it, but upon thinking back I
noticed many problems with the book.  I don't think the
characterizations are that good.  On the other hand, I can't
remember a genius protagonist whose intelligence was very
convincing.  Most importantly, I found the plot twists at the end
completely unbelievable.  Palmer could have found a better
continuation to his novella and novellette.

Still, I did enjoy the book for some unfathomable reason.  I get the
feeling Palmer analyzed his intended audience of Analog readers and
concocted a story designed to cater to their tastes.

Rich

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@topaz (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Books for SF writers
Date: 17 Feb 85 06:38:32 GMT

From: pduff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa> > [Please, if you
know of any other books which discuss the process > of authoring or
publishing SF stories or books (not writing in > general, just SF
writing) will you post title, author & publisher, > and perhaps a
review on SF-Lovers?].

Here are four from my bookshelf. I've read a few others, but can't 
remember their titles at the moment. One was by Barry Longyear and 
included a writer's-point-of-view analysis of his novella "Enemy 
Mine."

de Camp, L. Sprague and Catherine C. SCIENCE FICTION HANDBOOK, 
REVISED.
  (McGraw-Hill, 1977, trade pb, 220pp., $3.95. ISBN 0-07-016198-4).
  This is a revised edition of their 1953 "Handbook." It covers the
  recent history of sf, "how to write," "how to sell," etc. Despite
  the revision it still seems dated, since most of the examples are
  from sf of the 1940's and 50's.

Bretnor, Reginald, ed. THE CRAFT OF SCIENCE FICTION.
  (Barnes & Noble, 1977, trade pb, 321pp., $4.95. ISBN
  0-06-463457-4).  Consists of 15 chapters by well-known sf authors,
  each focusing on some part of writing sf, e.g., Hal Clement on
  hard science, N. Spinrad on rubber science, Herbert on
  non-terrestrial planets, Ellison on video and teleplays.
  Well-written throughout.  Hope it's sill in print.

Delany, Samuel R. THE JEWEL-HINGED JAW: ESSAYS ON SCIENCE FICTION.
  (Berkley/Windhover, 1978, trade pb, 303pp., $4.95. ISBN
  425-03852-1).  A collection of critical and speculative essays
  about particular sf works and about the genre in general. Not a
  how-to book, but a must for anybody seriously interested in
  writing sf. There's something for everybody here: Delany can
  switch from casual chatter to serious discussions of semiotics and
  linguistics in the space of a paragraph.  Highly recommended.

Kenin, Millea. OTHERGATES [#3].  (Unique Graphics, 1025 - 55th St.,
  Oakland, CA 94608, 1982, trade pb, 168pp., $5.00. ISBN/ISSN:
  unknown).  A market guide for sf writers and artists. I have #2,
  which is a newsprint folio, and #3, which is a trade pb. According
  to the editor, it is meant to appear annually, supplemented by
  quarterly updates. Lists professional and fan publications, book
  publishers, little magazines, journals of criticism, etc.  I don't
  know if it is still being published, but even if it isn't it's
  worth trying to find a copy of the latest edition.

                                Michael C. Berch
                                {akgua,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb
                                mcb@lll-tis.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  5 Mar 1985 00:27:48-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Story Identification

> From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER@TL-20B.ARPA>
> The plot: Geologists have evidence (new theory, new instruments,
> ?) that a major earthquake will hit L.A. within the next (week,
> month, ?).  The story concentrates on the politics and sociology
> of getting t he city evacuated.  It is evacuated.  After k days,
> no earthquake.  Geologists look like fools; everyone unhappy.
> City is un-evacuated.  Earthquake strikes, millions die.
>
> I thought I remembered it from Analog, but I've just done a
> massive search of the last 10 years and can't find it.  I have a
> friend who is a geologist but non-sf person to whom I would like
> to show it.

Your memory is better than your search skills. The story is, I
believe (I haven't looked up the issue to check), "Fault" by James
Gunn, in the June 1975 issue of ANALOG.

[I've sent this directly to the requestor, since he asked to have it
done so, but I thought I'd post it here for anyone else who cares to
know the answer.]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s
Date: 4 Mar 85 04:27:09 GMT

>Five Million Years to Earth is a HORRIBLE film!!  It's one of those
>schlock things where the scientist sees something inexplicable,
>dreams up a ridiculous (i.e.  almost totally unsupported by
>evidence) explanation for it, and this explanation is taken as fact
>for the rest of the movie.  Movies like this spread more wrong
>ideas about science than creationism!  (well, maybe I'm
>exaggerating a little...)  If it were about the occult it would be
>a pseudo-science fiction film.  Perhaps it should be called an
>anti-science fiction film?  In fact, the more I think about this,
>the more I like the connection with creationism.  The 'science' in
>a movie like this is very much like the 'science' in creationism --
>based on nonunderstanding of what science is really about, based on
>jumping to conclusions, etc.

Got that out of your system?  Good!  I do hope you are feeling
better.

I agree that what goes on in this film is not like what real
scientists do.  But why is that?  Roney and Quatermass approach
their observations and draw the most likely conclusions.  This is
very much what scientists do or should do.  The reason what they do
is in character very different than what your run-of-the-mill
scientist is that they are encountering a very different chain of
evidence than probably occurs in the real world.  You expect that,
this is science fiction.  And as far as science fiction goes, the
chain of evidence is not all that improbable, given the premise.
Kneale has only one assumtion in the 1960 TV play on which the film
was based.  That is basically the same premise of 2001.  The premise
is that the reason apes evolved into humans was through alien
intervention.  (The difference with 2001 was in how the idea was
handled.  Clarke took the idea and said "It's going to happen
again."  Kneale took the premise and said "How are we different than
we would be had we evolved ourselves?  What evidence might still be
around in the ground and in the human mind that we had been
intentionally altered?")

Given the evidence I cannot think of any time in the film when
Quatermass or Roney jump to a wild conclusion when there is another
that is simpler AND more convincing.  Faced with the evidence that
the only five million year old skeletons found intact were inside a
constructed craft there are not a whole lot of simple conclusions to
draw.  That fact alone is inconsistant with our current
understanding of the origins of intelligence.  I know the script
quite well and I never found a conclusion they drew to seem wild to
me.  Perhaps you can give an example or too where the reasoning of
the characters is wild IN THE LIGHT OF THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED.

You do well to compare the premise of this film with creationism.
This is a science fiction film whose premise concerns the origin of
the species human.  Creationism and evolution do also.  This film
simply plays with a third origin theory.  That is what good science
fiction does, play with theories.  In that way it is like
creationism.  Where it differs is that it admits to being fiction.
It tells the viewer to play with the idea in his/her own mind for
the sake of playing with the idea.  It does not tell the viewer to
believe the idea.  I am sure that Nigel Kneale would have nothing
but dismay if some cult were to be formed believing the origin
theory in FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH.

I am a little dismayed by your use of the phrase "If [the film] were
about the occult..."  Among other things this film certainly is
about the occult.  It is about a good deal more than that, but one
of the things this film concerns is the occult.  The occult
occurences are (in the context of the film) exaggerated explanations
of phenomena caused by the alien ships in their functioning to
control the descendents of the altered apes.  It is actually a
clever idea since there appears to be a lot of reported occurences
of occult phenomena over the ages to tie it in with Kneale's
premise.  That doesn't mean that Kneale really believes in occult
phenomena but it nicely unifies two apparently disassociated fields
and makes the idea that much more engaging.

Oh, and as to whether scientist really do what Quatermass and Roney
do, on top of what I have previously said, let me ask you to perform
a little experiment for me.  Go to the yellow pages, find a private
investigator, call him and ask him how similar his work is to what
goes on in "Hound of the Baskervilles."  Or do you consider this to
be another HORRIBLE work of fiction?

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 07:23:45-PST
From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Roger H. Goun)
To: lkaufman@BBNCCM.ARPA
Subject: Re: V: What happened to the summaries?

I'm the person who volunteered to do the summaries.  This was
clearly a mistake on my part.

> Is it really that bad or did the person doing the summaries find
> other things to do with his time?

Yes, it's really that bad!  I managed to watch the whole first
episode and report on it, but halfway through the second I decided
that the risk of mind rot was just too great.

"V" does for science fiction what "The Dukes of Hazzard" does for
rural sociology.  (That would make a fine closing comment! )

                                        Roger

ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
      100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:  (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 85 1321-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #86
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:

      Books - Female Authors (2 msgs) & Group Minds (2 msgs) &
              Worst SF & Upcoming Releases,
      Films - Earth II & Testament,
      Television - Space Patrol & The Time Tunnel & The Prisoner
      Miscellaneous - Buttons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 27 Feb 85 16:38:09 GMT

>> Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan
>> Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser
>> known but still good authors.
>
> You forgot Joanna Russ!!!! And Ellen Kuttner, Marion Zimmer
> Bradley, Diane Duane, R.A. MacAvoy, Sylvia Engdahl, Madeleine
> L'Engle, Katherine Kurtz, Jane Yolen, Joan Aiken.....Sorry,
> I'm getting carried away.
>                               -Ellen

You're right.  I also forgot Zenna Henderson, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro
(try her SF some time, better than St. Germaine, in my opinion),
Marta Randall, Suzette Hayden Elgin, Jessica Amamanda Salmonson (ok,
so she's more fantasy), Jo Clayton...

Ariel

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: female SF authors... (reposting)
Date: 2 Mar 85 06:45:02 GMT

Chauvinism strikes both ways.  I know people who claim that only
women write good fantasy these days, and won't read any new fantasy
books by male authors.  (Given Diane Duane, McKillip, LeGuin, Tanith
Lee, etc. we certainly have recently had an explosion of female
fantasy writers.)

By the way, while we're at it, I'd like to mention Octavia Butler's
stuff, particularly PATTERNMASTER, MIND OF MY MIND, THE SURVIVOR.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Re: Group mind
Date: 1 Mar 85 19:30:27 GMT

I vaguely recall a story in which a group mind is formed when a
retarded farm hand meets up with a mongoloid child, a child with
telekinetic abilities and a pair of telepathic (naked) twins.  I may
have some of the details wrong, but surely someone remembers the
details.  I think the story is considered a "classic" - I certainly
consider it so.
                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!fish@topaz (Bob Fishell)
Subject: Re: Group mind
Date: 5 Mar 85 00:02:19 GMT

I have read a book called "Mindbridge," By Joe Haldeman.  It
involved a melding of minds via a telepathic alien that physically
resembled a wet sponge.

It was also one of the worst SF novels I've ever read in my life.

                                Bob Fishell
                                ihnp4!ihlpg!fish

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: WORST SF EVER
Date: 1 Mar 85 01:35:03 GMT

I am currently preparing to publish "The (Illustrated) Eye of Argon"
This story is undoubtedly the worst written piece of heroic fantasy
every written, featuring as hero Grignr (a barbarian clad only in a
loincloth brandishing a broadsword), a heroine with a lithe opaque
nose and firm upstanding busts with sagging nipples, and the
Maguffin...a many-fauceted scarlet emerald, the Eye of Argon.
Locals may have heard this occasionally read on Hour 25 on KPFK.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@topaz (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: Upcoming Books (partial and biased list)
Date: 2 Mar 85 04:50:23 GMT

The following list of forthcoming books is extracted from LOCUS (The
Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field), March 1985.  This is a
wonderful magazine and very glossy.  Any mistakes and omissions are
my own and <insert your own disclaimer here>.  Please go out and buy
a LOCUS to see everything that is happening.  This is just a biased
summary.  Authors have been chosen and ignored by my whim.  Comments
are my own.

TO REIGN IN HELL, Steven Brust (May)
    I have seen (not read) a limited edition autographed hardcover
    of this and if it lives up to my expectations, this will be the
    book of the year.
MYTH DIRECTIONS, Robert Asprin (June)
FLIGHT OF MAVIN MANYSHAPED, Sheri Tepper (June)
TRUMPS OF DOOM, Roger Zelazny (May or later)
    Another Amber book.  Maybe he'll recover after going steadily
    downhill at a rate of acceleration matched only by Frank
    Herbert's DUNE series.
BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT, VOL.III: POLITICTIAN, Piers Anthony (May)
    More enjoyable schlock.  Maybe we'll have to put up with fewer
    rapes and murders this time.
THE GAME OF EMPIRE, Poul Anderson (May)
    Apparently featuring Diana Flandry, Dominic's daughter.  (By
    who?)
THE PEACE WAR, Vernor Vinge (June)
SHADRACH IN THE FURNACE, Robert Silverberg (June)
NIGHT OF POWER, Spider Robinson (spring hardcover)
BLACK STAR RISING, Frederick Pohl (May hardcover)
    The cover art printed with the listing looks good (for what it's
    worth)
A PLIOCENE COMPANION, Julian May (May)
FOOTFALL, Niven and Pournelle (June hardcover)
VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS, Jack L. Chalker (July)
REVOLT OF THE GALAXY, Smith and Goldin (May)
    More schlock to while away the minutes.
THE MESSIAH CHOICE, Jack Chalker (May hardcover)
DOWNTIME, Cynthia Felice (June hardcover)
THE SUBATOMIC MONSTER, Isaac Asimov (August)
THE BERSERKER THRONE, Fred Saberhagen (June hardcover/trade)
CV, Damon Knight (May hardcover)
STITCH IN SNOW, Anne McCaffrey (May hardcover?)
DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE, Jack L. Chalker (May)
PRETENDER, Piers Anthony and Frances Hall (June)
THE POSTMAN, David Brin (November hardcover)
    [from Bantam/SPECTRA ad]
    "A ,maor novel of one man's determination to rebuild America
     from the ashes of a devastating war." $14.95/$16.95 (in Canada)
THE UPLIFT WAR, David Brin (December Mass Market)
    sequel to STARTIDE RISING
THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES, Samuel R. Delany
  (Dec. hardcover)
    conclusion to STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND
A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN, Harry Harrison (October Mass Market)
    Origin of "Slipper Jim"
THE BOOK OF KELLS, R.A. MacAvoy (August)
GILGAMESH THE KING, Robert Silverberg (November Mass Market)
POLAR FLEET, Warren Norwood (June)
    Continuing "THE DOUBLE SPIRAL WAR"
THE DARKLING WIND, Somtow Sucharitkul (July)
THE CHRISTENING QUEST, Elizabeth Scarborough (August)
    Latest in the CHRONICLES OF ARGONIA
THRESHOLD, David R. Palmer (November)

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, Univ. of Toronto
USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!utcsrgv!utai!perelgut
CSNET:  perelgut@Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 85 10:36:54 EST
From: Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM
Subject: Earth II

Someone claimed Earth II as the movie everyone is searching for with
3 astronauts going into suspended animation on a space station.
This was definitely not Earth II.  Earth II was a fairly good TV sf
film about the crew of, I think, an international space station,
disarming a nuclear warhead which the Soviets or Chinese placed in
orbit.  It appeared a good while ago, early 70's, and if I remember
had pretty good effects, though not a very heavy plot.

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: Re: TESTAMENT
Date: 5 Mar 85 18:45:04 GMT

This is a response to a piece of mail.  I am posting it to the net
partially because my software is complaining about the return
address, but also because the content may be of general interest.

>Just got your review of 9 Feb.  Re:
>
>       "TESTAMENT wasa very well-made film, beautifully
>       directed with great insights into the
>       characters.  But while those characters
>       were believable, the situation was not.  The
>       producers failed to do their homework."
>
>How was the situation not believable?

My knowledge of what a post-nuclear war environment is based
predominantly on the following:

   BBC documentary "The War Game" dir. by Peter Watkins
   Discussions with friends
   Reading parts of THE FATE OF THE EARTH (I don't remember the
author, but it's because of the current interest in nuclear
holocausts it is in most book stores.)

The fact is that TESTAMENT examined only the radiation effect of the
war and for a community within commute distance of San Francisco
they way under-rated even that.  At the time TESTAMENT was made the
concept of nuclear winter had already been established, yet the film
did not show the dropping of temperatures.  On the contrary, some
survivors were headed up to Canada where the cold alone would have
been deadly.

The breakdown of the social order was shown with one kid stealing a
bicycle.  With the the big (and many not-so-big) cities gone, there
would be no distribution of food.  Nothing grown would be safe.  The
breakdown of social order would start with food hoarding.  (Non- and
slightly-contaminated food, after all, and guns, would be the most
valuable commodities for survival.)  Half-starving gangs would be
scouring the countryside to find anything to eat.  They would roll
over the town in TESTAMENT, like it were nothing at all.  (I suppose
you could accuse me of rattling off Survivalist dogma here.  I
dislike the Survivalist movement myself, but their view of the
post-holocaust world is probably closer to the truth than most
people realize.)

Then there would be disease.  Within a large radius around targets
there would be millions dying with nobody to bury them.  Disease
would run rampant with no real facilities to stop it.  The town in
TESTAMENT is hardly isolated enough that the disease would not come
there.  The people on the fringes of the destruction and even the
air currents would carry it.

Then there are the injured and maimed.  The dubious assumption of
the film was that this town was far enough from any of the blasts to
avoid direct physical injuries.  It wouldn't have avoided the
walking wounded, it just wasn't that isolated.

In any case there is a long list of reasons why things just would
not have been as shown in TESTAMENT.  A post-nuclear-war is very
probably worse than we can imagine, and the town in TESTAMENT was
not.

Responses to net.movies please.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper)
Subject: re: SF show from the fifties
Date: 4 Mar 85 23:53:43 GMT

>Does the show _Space Patrol_ jog any memories in netland?

Not original memories this time, I don't remember watching the
series on its original broadcast (1950-1956), though toward the end
of its run I might have.  I have seen several episodes at science
fiction conventions and Night Flight ran some a little while back, I
think.  This is the sort of series you have to see when you are
young, or you can never appreciate it.  The series starred Ed Kemmer
as Commander Buzz Corey.  Kemmer's clean cut look and the
association with science fiction apparently got him later roles as
science teacher types like the one he played in THE SPIDER.  Lyn
Osborn played his gee-whiz sidekick Cadet Happy.  The stories were
pretty minimal but the special effects are interesting to watch
considering the lack of technology and low budget.  For example, to
show a scene underwater, the characters made floating motions with
their arms while the camera shot them through a fish tank.  His ship
was the XRZ.  One of my sources quotes the opening as "High
adventures in the wild vast regions of space.  Missions of daring in
the name of interplanetary justice.  Travel into the future with
Buzz Corey, commander-in-chief of the Space Patrol."  And a whole
generation grew up thinking that sentence fragments were dramatic!

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  4 Mar 1985 23:40:31-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: THE TIME TUNNEL

> From: cord!gwr
> this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember
> from when I was very young. The description is right but the
> timing is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it???

If you saw THE TIME TUNNEL in the early Sixties, you must have been
doing a little time travelling yourself. TUNNEL didn't come on the
air until 1966.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 05:00 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Prisoner books etc...

When Channel 4 showed the entire series again last year (1984 - cute
eh?)  after the last episode 'Fallout' they had a rather tricksy
programme entitled "in search of the prisoner" or some such in which
a presenter surrounded by videos attempted to unravel the "real"
meaning of the series.  Various people involved with the production
appeared.  Amongst these was George Markstein the script editor (and
also one of the main writers of "Danger Man" as "Secret Agent" was
called in the UK).  "Of course the prisoner was John Drake" he
blithely stated.  However, others involved in the production
described how McGoohan and Markstein had perpetually been at odds
about the format, with Markstein preferring a conventional
spy-thriller (he writes them for a living) and McGoohan preferring
the sort of thing that The Prisoner actually became.  In the first
interview McGoohan has ever given about the series one of the first
things he said was "Of course No 6 was not John Drake".  I know who
I prefer to listen to.

Incidentally "Six of one" have been going for several years now and
run a souvenir shop in No 6's house in Port Meirion where the series
was filmed.  They also hold annual (I think) conventions there and
regular tours of places in the series (e.g.  in the program we saw
them all running to catch the same bus caught at the end of
"Fallout").  I've got a No 6 penny-farthing badge...

When the society was first founded they sent details to McGoohan who
replied with a telegram saying "Half a dozen of the other".

          deryk.

 "Who are you?"
 "I am the new number 2"
 "Who is number 1?"
 "You are number 6"

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Help with button: "The Imp of the Perverse"
Date: 05 Mar 85 10:38:43 PST (Tue)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

I wasn't implying that the name was not used in some SF work, just
suggesting how the author probably (no pun intended) came up with
it.  Your belief that it was a personification of Murphey's Law does
not refute (in my opinion, it actually supports) this suggestion.

If the imp is a personification of Murphey's law, then it seems
likely that the author of the story used the term 'imp' in reference
to Maxwell's Demon, since this demon IS the personification of
Murphey's Law!  It is the malicious sentient being on which we lay
the blame for an otherwise impersonal law by saying that the demon
alters probability in order to bring about possible although
improbable misfortunes or calamities.  The correspondence between
names and occupations is nearly perfect; the only question is
whether it was intentional.

In addition to being a fun and convenient scapegoat, the demon is a
literary device for saying things (particularly bad ones in the case
of the demon) do not happen by accident in the universe.  I adhere
to this philosophy at least as far as puns and allegories in
literature go.  I assume that an SF author is literate enough to be
aware of the demon, and to use the term 'imp' based on that.  S/he
may have chosen the name out of the blue, but to assume that is to
make a negative assumption about the author's writing abilities.  I
am hesitant to make such an assumption without overwhelming evidence
of incompetance.

Sorry I couldn't supply the requested pointer, though.

        Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 85 1352-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #87
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:

               Books - Bachman & Quality Hardcovers &
                       Computers in SF & Perry Rhodan,
               Miscellaneous - Aliens in SF (2 msgs) & 
                       Boskone 22 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  6 Mar 1985 03:04:15-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Richard Bachman

> From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
> [this just shows that the salability of a book is the name of the
> author, not the quality of the book.  If King was famous for the
> quality of his writing, then the five Bachman books should have
> made Bachman also famous.]

There's a faulty piece of reasoning there. While it's true to a
degree that a books salability has more to do with the author's name
than the book itself, it mostly has to do with the publisher's
promotion of the book. Contrary to popular belief, "best-sellers"
are made, not born. If you look at trade journals, you will notice
that many, if not most, publishers treat "best-seller" as a distinct
genre. They say, "We're going to market this as a best-seller," with
impunity, as if the sales of the book had been pre-determined. That
the Richard Bachman novels didn't sell like hot cakes, like Stephen
King novels do, it's because NAL didn't promote them as anything
special, they didn't have especially large print-runs, and
basically, no one knew they existed. If NAL promoted Richard Bachman
the way they promote Stephen King, Bachman might well have been
famous. And if this happened, the cover would have been blown long
before now; "Bachman" could never have been in the limelight like
King is without ever showing himself. The name of the author sells
the book, but it's the quality of the book that gives the author his
reputation. If King's books were all turkeys, no one would be buying
them regardless of how they are promoted. Well, OK, many
best-sellers *are* turkeys, but what I mean is, if King's first
three books really bombed, no one would want to read the later ones.
        Plus, with the exception of THINNER, the Bachman books were
all paperback originals, which are generally ignored by the
reviewers.
        Secondly, it's not strictly true that it's an author's name
that sells books. It's his *reputation* that does it. Is this
unusual?  After so many very good novels, Stephen King has the
reputation of turning out well-written, spine-tingling chillers.
Anyone going into a bookstore and seeing THINNER by Richard Bachman
sitting next to THE TALISMAN by Stephen King and Peter Straub is
most likely going to choose the latter, because he feels sure that
he's going to enjoy it, knowing how good the previous books by those
two are. As for the former, he's likely to say, "Who the hell is
Richard Bachman?" and will not be sure that he's going to find the
investment worthwhile. But when folks find out that Bachman is
actually King, then the chances that they are going to enjoy THINNER
dramatically increase because of King's reputation for turning out a
good, scary novel.

Tell me, if you went into a store and saw a new novel by Robert
Heinlein and a new novel by Anson McDonald [this is presuming that:
(a) you are a Heinlein fan and, (b) you are not already aware that
Heinlein has written stories under the McDonald by-line], which
would you pick? If you pick the Heinlein, why? Is it because of the
name? And then what if you had heard that Anson McDonald was
actually Robert Heinlein? Would you go right back to the store to
pick up that McDonald book?

The other thing to remember is that the mainstream world is not like
the sf world. We (sf fandom) are a tightly knit group, and book and
author recommendations travel around pretty quickly, so a really
good book by an unknown author is going to get more attention than a
similar book in the mainstream world. There's no network like it in
the mainstream market and so the authors are completely at the mercy
of reviewers and their publisher's publicity department. If no one
knows your book exists, it doesn't matter *how* good it is.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1985  09:53 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Quality Hardcovers

I am very interested in quality hardcovers.  Can anyone send me a
list of addresses (and mail order policies) of sources for same.  I
am particularly interested in books with acid free paper/ink.

Dean F. Sutherland
(Sutherland@TL-20B.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 85 12:53:04 EST
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Computer SF - short novel

"Mouthpiece", by Edward Wellen.  It involves a grad student's
project to decipher the last-word ramblings of a Dutch Schultz
analog.  (For those not up on their history of Crime, Dutch was a
Prohibition-era gangster, hitman for top crime bosses.  Dutch was
shot one day by party or parties unknown.  As he lay dying, a
policeman tried to get him to name his killer(s).  Dutch responded
with "ravings", or so the policeman thought.  Others have since
tried to make sense of the Dutchman's last words, including Robert
Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, in _Illuminatus!_)

Getting back to the story, this student designs a database filled
with the last words of gangster "Kraut Schwartz", some entries from
the New York Times Index for the period, and some Freudian
psychoanalysis.  When he runs it through the computer, an AI version
of "Kraut" is created.  The story itself involves deciphering the
"ravings", which are really a code leading to a hidden treasure of
robbery loot.

It's a pretty typical "computer menace" story, except for the
decipherment.  I have it in _The_13_Crimes_of_Science_Fiction_
(Doubleday, 1979), edited by Asimov, Martin Harry Greenberg, and
Charles G. Waugh.  It also appeared in F&SF, c. 1974.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  6 Mar 1985 03:30:27-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Perry Rhodan

> From: <theo@ari-hq1>
> Earlier this month, pduff inquired about the hero of the universe,
> Perry Rhodan. I'd like to submit my own questions on this matter.
>
> Are many of the books in the series independent of the German
> stories (novellettes or novellas)?

Nope. All of the books that appeared in the US are translations of
the original German stories.

> How do the translated texts compare?

Don't know. I couldn't stomach my way through them. I have a dozen
or so German originals, but I've never had the time to try to read
them; Ich spreche ein bisschen Deutsch, but not fluently enough to
be able to breeze through the Rhodans. I'm sure that they aren't
worth the time and effort required, if the English translations are
anything to go by.

> How popular was Perry Rhodan outside of Germany?

If you can believe the hype, Rhodan is very popular throughout
Europe. It was certainly popular enough in the US to go well over a
hundred books. The only other paperback series that I can think of
that have gone that long are the Doc Savage and Nick Carter series
(Nick Carter is almost up to 200).

> Is the series still popular in Germany?

As far as I know. They're still publishing. And on a weekly basis.
It's my guess that they're rapidly approaching 1200 issues by now.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Sun 3 Mar 85 10:44:18-PST
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: favorite aliens

I loved Dua, Tritt and Odeen in Asimov's *The Gods Themselves.*

                        Bill

------------------------------

From: andrews@yale.ARPA (Thomas O. Andrews)
Subject: Re: favorite alien
Date: 4 Mar 85 18:39:24 GMT

  My favorite alien has got to be the ocean of Solaris, in Stanislaw
Lem's novel of the same name.  The book is an excellent commentary
on the field of science fiction, marked by Lem's wit and realistic
approach to alien life.  Lem seems to be saying to other science
fiction authors, "If there is intelligent life elsewhere, it sure as
hell won't be able to communcicate with us."  This also seems to be
one of the themes of his book, _His Masters Voice_.

  Any other Lem fans out there?
                                              Thomas Andrews

------------------------------

From: panda!mjn@topaz (Mark J. Norton)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22
Date: 28 Feb 85 15:51:37 GMT

In reply to both Elizabeth and Dan Davidson:

You are no doubt aware that there are several members of NESFA on
USENET, myself included.  Stating from the outset that it is quite
clear that NESFA is not perfect, I will address some of the things
stated previously.

Running a Con Year after Year:

    Based on several things both of you said it is fairly clear that
you have not helped to run or organize a convention.  See that
little 22 after the Boskone in the subject line above?  It means
that NESFA has been trying to put out a good convention for 22
years.  Don't you thing that it might be a little tough to be
original and different year after year?

    You also mentioned being jaded with program material.  That
happens, but I think difference lies in your change attitudes and
perceptions, rather than quality of programming slipping.  I've
become very tired of listening to the same old panels every year.
As a result, I don't attend them anymore.  On the other hand, I
appreciate the Boskone Art Show more with each passing year.  A con
is what you make of it.  Work at it some.

Resistration Fee (How can they be so greedy?):

    Both you and Dan mention $22 being steep for registration.  How
many other conventions do you attend.  I'm not talking about Star
Trek cons in Portland, Maine, but big regionals: Disclave,
Westercon, Maplecon, etc.  I think you'd find that they run about
the same or more for the weekend.  (This doesn't even come close to
$50 for a worldcon!)

    Were does all the money go?  You might be surprised at some of
the costs involved in running a big con.  Rentals, printing, flying
in GOH, postal rates (hmm, 22c), rooms to get, etc, etc.  NESFA is a
non-profit organization.  The budget for Boskone every year is
designed to break even.  Each year an estimate is made of how many
people will attend the convention.  This times the con rate is how
much money can be budgeted.

    Now when we come down to it, if this year's con attracts a lot
of people, the convention makes a profit.  On the other hand, if
fewer than predicted show up, it looses money.  NESFA has been
concerned about the later for years.  Part of the profits (if any)
from previous cons goes towards an insurance fund to help bail out
the eventual Big Money Loser.

Weekend vs Daily Rates:

    This has been a topic of discussion for years in NESFA.  It
usually comes down to this: its too much work to try and organize
and check for one day badges.  Consider: four different kinds of
badges are needed.  One for each day of the con, and one for the
whole weekend.  Stamps stickers, etc are too small and have been
shown to not work well.  Thus, as unfortunate as it is for some
people, one rate is charged.

    In the past, this has been moderated somewhat.  If by Sunday,
membership in the con is a little below predicted numbers, a
discount might be offered for just Sunday.  By then, no special
badges are needed.  In recent years, however, not enough people
isn't the problem, its too many people.

Keeping out the Riff Raff:

    Boskone as a convention is set up and organized by about 30
people.  These same people are responsible for there being anything
at all, much less living up to the quality we see year after year.
At the con, however, these people are only managers.  The people who
REALLY run the con are fans.  Volunteers, hundreds of them.  If it
weren't for these people who give up a little piece of the con
(which they paid for), it would fail miserably.

    Thus we come to it.  NESFA cannot handle well a convention where
too many people attend.  Volunteers do not seem to increase linearly
with the number of attendees.  More people means more
disorganization.  The facilites are arranged for optimal numbers.
More people cause breakdowns in flow, control, and timing.

    For the past several years NESFA has been trying various ways to
keep the number of people attending a Boskone to a reasonable
number.  They truly want to keep the quality high and that means
keep the numbers small.  One way to cut numbers is to not have daily
rates.  Its some what unfortunately that this cuts out people who
cannot afford full weekend rates, but it helps.  Another method
tried is altering content of the film program.  Since Star Trek and
other big media productions have their own specialty cons, they have
been removed from Boskones.

    In a sense, as soon as you try to exclude people to keep numbers
from getting too large, discrimination enters.  NESFA has been
trying very hard to handle this in the most reasonable way possible.
One other thing to remember here.  The members of NESFA who put on a
Boskone are volunteers too.  They are doing their best to organize
something for your enjoyment.  If you have a criticism or
suggestion, tell them.  They will listen.  There was even two items
on the program for fan feedback.  Did you attend?

NESFA's Clubhouse Search:

    In closing, I'd like to say a few things about NESFA search for
a clubhouse.  It is true that we are looking for one.  Priced a
house lately?  Commerical space of the size NESFA needs runs even
more.  Its a lot harder to find a building which suits the
requirements too.  The search has been going on actively for almost
2 years.  We came very close recently (money was put down), but the
deal fell through from the seller's side.  It was quite
disappointing.

    Where does the money for such an acquisition come from?  Money
for the NESFA clubhouse is being gathered from donations to a
building fund and a realty trust fund.  Donations (and proceeds from
auctions, etc) have come to about 12K.  Add in sale of bonds (mostly
to members) and the total comes to about 60K.

    Wait a minute!  What about all those profits from Boskone?!?  As
far as I know, none of the money generated by previous Boskones is
put into the building fund.  NONE!  Profits (what there is) does go
towards operating expenses of NESFA.  Some of it goes towards
purchase of equipment to run future Boskones and some of it is
donated to SF related causes (TAFF, club membership in worldcon,
Reading for the Blind, etc.)  Where is all of this NESFA greed of
which you speak?

     Mark J. Norton
     decvax!genrad!{panda | teddy}!mjn

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 85  20:56 EST (Sun)
From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Boskone

        "Boskone 22...had more people than they wanted...2300."
        "What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a
         uniform $22.00: greed."

At last year's Boskone, I had heard that NESFA was charging everyone
the full price admission (regardless of 1 or 3 days) *with the
intent* of trying to keep the number of con-goers down.  Not the
best way of trying to limit numbers, I must admit; but last year's
con did have too many people there for the size of the hotel.  I
suspect it will take a few years for Boskone to find a hotel with
the proper size and karma for a permanent site.  The Copley Marriot
did not seem very thrilled to have us there.

        "I also was informed several times that the lousy
         film/video schedule was deliberate, because they
         didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets
         coming in just to see the movies."

Hmm, I had thought the quality of this year's schedule was far below
last year's.  If true, this reason is inexcusable.  That's what
BADGES are for!  To keep the riff-raff out, or at least to get $22
out of him first!

Well, I'll give them one more try next year...

Marla

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Mar 85 1426-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #88
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anthony & Chalker & Shetterly &
                      Stasheff & Vinge,
              Films - The Forbin Project & Metropolis &
                      Threads & Star Trek,
              Television - Dr. Who,
              Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: othervax!psal@topaz
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 4 Mar 85 16:34:48 GMT

        As an old Piers addict, I note that no-one has mentioned his
'cave' books, "CTHON" and "PTHOR", nor "HASSAN", an attempt to
emulate the style of "The Arabian Nights."

        I also agree that his earlier work was much better; we
weren't required to repeatedly share the slow and delayed
adolescence of some feeble-minded person going through thier pimply
period in public. "SOS THE ROPE", origionaly serialized in F&SF, won
him his first hugo, and I agree that he hasn't done anything to
match "MACROSCOPE." One keeps hoping, though.

                        -C.Thomas Weinbaum von Waldenhal

------------------------------

From: amdimage!cmoore@topaz (chris moore)
Subject: Re: Chalker
Date: 4 Mar 85 22:16:55 GMT

>> From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
>> What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the
>> "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and
>> another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore
>> yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good.
>
> Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls
> series, but he has written some nice things.  Other than the Soul
> Rider series and any new, new books, there are:
>
>  [ list of books here]
>                                Muffy

I have been a fan of Chalker's for a long time.  I think I've read
all of his available works - at least, I've read all that I've been
able to find, including all those on Muffy's list and maybe a few
others.  I'll have to look through my collection when I get home and
see if there are any I could add to the list.

The only book/series I thought was less interesting than the rest
was the Four Lords of the Diamond series.  By the time I got to the
fourth, I had pretty much lost interest, but I finished them just to
see how they came out.  I've read the Well of Souls series several
times, and I think it's his best (especially the first book -
Midnight at the Well of Souls).  The Web of the Cozen was also very
good, particularly because of the somewhat unusual ending. (For
those who haven't read it, I won't spoil it )

 Chris Moore (408) 749-4692
 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!amdimage!cmoore

------------------------------

From: chabot%amber.DEC@topaz (L S Chabot)
Subject: new book by Shetterly
Date: 6 Mar 85 02:52:41 GMT

At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * Shetterly, I
can now recommend it (it's hard to type and read at the same time).
It's new from Ace Fantasy (let's see, "April 1985").  This is good,
fun fantasy, written with wit and charm.  I particularly like this
kind of telling, where things are only explained as long as you keep
running as fast as you can with the characters, and this isn't easy
since not all of them are heading the same direction, and then you
only find out when they find out the same themselves (and you won't
get any help/spoilers from me!).

No mention in the author's biography, included at the end of the
book, is made of Florida.

* "All Cats Are Scum"

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: Stasheff
Date: 5 Mar 85 16:50:22 GMT

> Oh, I noticed that no one had mentioned "Escape Velocity" in
> connection with Stasheff or the Warlock books.  This is the book
> which tells of the origins of the planet on which the warlock
> finds himself.

Not really.  In fact, the reference it makes to the origins of that
planet (Ganymede?) seemed to me to be a bit of a sop to the
publishers.  "See if you can tie in the other stuff.  It'll help the
book sell."

"Escape Velocity" stands very well on its own, without leaning too
heavily on the Warlock stuff.  It DOES record the adventures of the
Warlock's ancestors (a couple of greats-grandfather).  And, of
course, ... But that might spoil it... Find this book and read it if
you enjoyed other Stasheff stuff.  It's worth it.

Ariel Shattan
..!tekronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

From: ames!bub@topaz (Bubbette McLeod)
Subject: Snow Queen sequel?
Date: 4 Mar 85 19:44:11 GMT

Has anyone read the sequel to Joan D. Vinge's Snow Queen? I believe
it's called World's End. I've seen it in the bookstores and was
curious about it.

Bub
{allegra,dual,hao,hplabs,ihnp4}!ames!bub

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 85 10:09:08 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: The Forbin Project
From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA

Glad that somebody finally mentioned "Colossus, the Forbin Project."
This film, which was released originally as just "The Forbin
Project" didn't do well in the theaters, primarily because the movie
going public couldn't seem to relate to computers in 1971 (when the
movie was made) like they would now.  The movie was relatively
low-key, without any shoot-'em-ups or other flashy gimmicks and was
received well by everybody I knew who knew anything about computers.

Trivia Note: The exterior shots were filmed at the Lawrence Hall of
Science on the University of California Berkeley campus.  The
opening shot where the helicopter flew down over the top of a
building and landed in front of LHoS had to be shot more than once
because everybody in the Space Sciences Lab (the building they flew
over and down in front of) was staring out the windows on the first
shot.  Both building are located on the hill behind the campus with
a sweeping view of the Bay.

/Mary

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz
Subject: re: METROPOLIS
Date: 5 Mar 85 08:20:30 GMT

> From: ttidcc!hollombe (Jerry Hollombe)
> ...how many people are aware that _Metropolis_ wasn't written by
> Fritz Lang?  One of my pet peeves is everyone referring to it as
> "Fritz Lang's _Metropolis_" when the original novel was actually
> written by Thea von Harbou.

It's called "Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS" to distinguish it from Thea
von Harbou's METROPOLIS. Von Harbou's is the novel, Lang's is the
film. The same is done with "Alfred Hitchcock's PYSCHO" (film) vs.
"Robert Bloch's PSYCHO" (novel), "Stanley Kubrick's 2001" (film) vs.
"Arthur C. Clarke's 2001" (novel), "Stanley Kubrick's THE SHINING"
(film) vs. Stephen King's THE SHINING" (novel), etc.

Von Harbou may have written the novel upon which it's based, but
Lang brought it to the screen. Besides, Lang *did* co-write the
screenplay for METROPOLIS with von Harbou.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Nuclear War films - THREADS
Date: 6 Mar 85 05:00:00 GMT

For those who though the "Day After" and "Testament" were bad, you
should see the English-produced "THREADS".

The reviewers say that THREADS makes the Day After look like a romp
through the daisies, and while it's not quite that bad, they are
close.

This film deals a fair deal with the buildup to the war, at the
expense of the soap-opera style buildup they had in The Day After.
Nonetheless, you can still gain some sympathy for these people as
all but one of them die miserably.

They have it all.  One EMP-burst over the north sea.  The next hour
a ground burst at a military target 30 miles away.  And the next day
a destroy-industry air burst right over Sheffield, England, the site
of the film.  After, you get firestorms, the wounded, fallout,
radiation sickness, and even a bit of nuclear winter, which they
note England feels less of because it is surrounded by the sea.  The
gangs of looters, the martial law and finally the law of the jungle.
Finally you see a battered land, with a population reduced to the
level of the Middle Ages.  Stillbirth and mutation are discussed.

One interesting note.  Their war starts in Iran with a short
two-weapon tactical exchange.  One month beforehand, a press
blackout covers Iran, which is a reasonable depiction of the
situation.  And thus the public doesn't actually learn of the use of
nukes until several days afterwards, when scientists not shut up by
the government announce evidence like increased radioactivity in
certain wind patterns.  The idea that nukes might be used in battle
and I might not know about it scares me...

In contrast, Testament was not a film about nuclear war.  It was a
film about a town's death from radiation poisoning.  It could just
has easily have been plague or any other toxin.  They wanted to
focus on the human drama surrounding the deaths, and they did that
well, but they did not provide a reasonable depiction of a nuclear
war.

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: dolqci!mike@topaz (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: Re: another st4 plot???
Date: 6 Mar 85 14:39:39 GMT

> From: rcodyer%bailey.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
> The latest is an all-out war between the Federation and the
> Klingons, I assume over the Genesis project

        Only one major problem; the Organians wouldn't allow it.  I
recently posted the contents of a treatment and comments from George
(Sulu) Takei to net.startrek.  as far as I can tell, these are
fairly accurate. When STIII:TSFS came out, I had seen the treatment
from the same source as this one, and the only major changes were
that the original treatment I saw used the Romulans instead of the
Klingons I should have more solid information in around a month or
two.......

Mike Stalnaker
UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike
AT&T:202-376-2593
USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213

          McCoy: "Shaddup Spock! We're Rescuing you!"
          Spock: "Why thank you, 'Captain McCoy'"

------------------------------

From: ISM780!patrick@topaz
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 5 Mar 85 06:59:01 GMT

I can't say I'll miss Dr. Who much as I always considered it tacky
and silly in the extreme after I passed the age of 12 (outraged
flames by personal mail, please), but I thought I'd add some
speculation and some historical background:

As someone recently pointed out, Dr. Who is a BBC (non-commercial)
as opposed to ITV (commercial) production.  Many of us Brits still
can't abide to watch TV that has advertisements in it.  Anyway, one
of the leading businessmen behind commercial TV in England is Lew
Grade (now Sir Lew Grade).  I forget who said it, but when
Parliament was first debating the introduction of commercial TV, one
MP objected that to grant a commercial TV license was to grant a
'license to print money'.  Sure enough, Lew Grade and a handful of
others became multi-millionaires, and just as inevitably, were
granted "Honours" by the Queen (in reality, by the Prime Minister of
the day).  This despite the critism from middle- class intellectuals
that they were producing shoddy rubbish which pandered to the lowest
in public taste.  In consequence of his ITV programming Lew Grade
acquired the nickname "Low Greed".  I suspect that Anthony is a
member of the family.  God help the BBC if these guys are now in
charge.

I suppose this really belongs in net.politics, but to get back to
the point, can commercial television (or even the BBC) ever produce
*good* science fiction (as opposed to tacky stuff we accept because
it's all we can get)?  Let's leave Star Trek and Dr. Who out of the
discussion.  What else is there?

Patrick Curran
Interactive Systems Corp.
   ...ihnp4!ima!ism780!patrick

------------------------------

From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on
Subject: broil)
Date: 4 Mar 85 00:26:23 GMT

Jeez.  Twenty-two whole dollars?  I admit, I would like to see
one-day memberships priced appropriately.  I'd also like to see a
$60 dollar Macintosh (I've had this dream two nights now).  I don't
see anything wrong in raising money for the clubhouse.  (As for the
1980 surplus, some of it was sent down to Baltimore, to keep
Constellation from bankrupcy.)

Video program: I can't believe it was busted deliberately.  I can't
believe it was busted so *badly*. . . .

Programming:  excellent.

Hotel: The Marriot seemed to think they were too Ritzy for fans, or
even mundanes.  (BTW, that's a *pun*, folk.)  I didn't have any
trouble getting lunch on Friday, dressed in jeans, T-shirt, and
denim jacket, and I hear they eased off as the weekend went on.  My
flame is about the security guy who, after the Sat 5AM fire alarm,
told me I couldn't wait in the lobby (I was looking for my
eleven-year-old, who turned out to be back in the room).  I
enlightened the security idiot in a quiet, polite tone without any
even slightly offensive language.  (And jumped up so fast, reliable
witnesses thought I was going to punch him out.)

Punday: Why can't it start at eight, instead of nine?  *Long*.  I
was astounded that the guy who took third place got that far, though
second and first place were earned.  To last year's winner and this
year's fourth place Richard Hill, better luck next time; you were
right, a quick 5 is better than a slow 7.  To non-entrant Richard
Stallman: next year, ENTER!

Finally: I believe Mark Ol$son (next year's chair) is on the net
somewhere, if you have constructive criticism.

        -Paul S. R. Chisholm
        ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc
        ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on
Subject: broil)
Date: 4 Mar 85 15:59:12 GMT

Don't feel too badly about security.  We, too, had a bad experience
with some of the "boys in brown".  Three of us, (two karate
instructors and a student) were sitting by a door.  A security
"officer" informed us that we were sitting near a fire door and
"move.  Now". As we got up to move, I looked at the door and
commented that fire doors should be marked as such so people
wouldn't sit near them.

Mr. Security then said, "Move your asses now or I'm going to start
some trouble", as he was punching his hand. Hmmm.  At this point I
ceased wondering why fans were commenting that the hotel really
didn't want us there.  Being good Boskoners, we didn't beat the guy
up, but left, hoping NESFA would either change hotels next year, or
ask the Marriott to weed out street punks from their security staff.

------------------------------

From: ahutb!ecl@topaz (e.leeper)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on
Subject: broil)
Date: 4 Mar 85 15:11:33 GMT

My only major complaint was with the hotel/con interface.  Saturday
night there was a member of the Con Committee (well, he had the
badge anyway) asking to see room keys before letting anyone onto the
express elevators (to the 23rd and up floors).  This was to prevent
them from being clogged with people who would ride up to 23 and walk
down to their floor (say 18) because that was faster than waiting
for a regular elevator.

When I got back to my room (after refusing to show my room key to
this person), I called Hotel Security, who knew nothing about this.
I complained (and they agreed) that hotel occupants should not be
expected to show their room keys (and numbers) to anyone except
hotel security staff.  What the final resolution of this was I don't
know.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
Note temporary kluge for new address =>
...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ahutb!ecl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Mar 85 1311-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #89
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brunner (3 msgs) & Herbert (3 msgs),
            Films - Five Million Years to Earth & Testament &
                    THX 1138 & Earth II,
            Television - Dr. Who & The People

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1985 10:46:22 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: John Brunner

     "The Sheep Look Up" is actually the third in a trio of books by
English author John Brunner.  [Yes, he really is English -- his
business card, which I have in front of me, lists his address as
being in South Petherton, Co. Somerset...].  All three of the books
use the same stylistic technique, in which several intersecting
stories, each told from a first-person perspective, are used as the
dominant strands in an assemblage of narrative techniques which
provide a cultural and social context for the ongoing stories.
This method of writing is used in all three novels: "Stand on
Zanzibar" (1968; Hugo, 1968; British SF Award, 1970; Prix Apollo [in
translation], 1973), "The Jagged Orbit" (1969, British SF Award,
1971), and "The Sheep Look Up".
     The technique used in writing these books is *not* new to
Brunner. In a discussion with him at ConStellation, he confirmed my
suspicion that he was consciously emulating the work of American
novelist John dos Passos, whose "U.S.A." trilogy (1930-36) uses
similar techniques.  The two trilogies are also similar in that they
take extremely dystopian views of the current and future scenes.
        "Stand on Zanzibar", by the way, should be added to the list
of books which deal with artificial intelligence, as one of the
critical viewpoint characters is the computer Shalmaneser, who
becomes self-aware in mid-novel.  (Curiously, despite the number of
awards this book won, it was totally ignored by most of the
academics writing about computers in sf.)

------------------------------

From: ISM780!patrick@topaz
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 5 Mar 85 06:56:43 GMT

Hey - another Brunner freak, and at ISC too...

Stand on Zanzibar was (I believe) written before The Sheep Look Up,
and you're right, neither book is a sequel to the other.

SOZ is my favourite SF book of all time; I've read it a dozen times,
and owned several copies (I lend them to people saying "you must
read this", and never see them again).

For years now I've been haunting the bookstores looking for the
latest Brunner.  He seems to write two sorts of books - quickie
pot-boilers of no particular interest, and long thoughtful books
which (until the latest one) I loved.  In addition to the two
mentioned above, try "The Jagged Orbit" - a scary story about
paranoia and the arms-manufacturers who encourage and feed off it,
and "The Shockwave Rider" - about computer networks, and a guy who
lives outside the law by manufacturing "electronic personalities"
for himself.  There's also an early book of his called "The Squares
of the City", which is the only SF book I know about town/traffic
planning (I used to hang out with a bunch of people in this
profession - the book is realistic), Latin America, and the game of
chess (!).

I must admit that there's a touch of formula-writing about these
books; there's always a super-smart super-unconventional
sociologist-type who knows all the answers to everything, but
nevertheless, if you like your SF sociological as opposed to
high-tech or fantastic, then you'll enjoy these books.  (One reason
they appeal to me is that I used to be a sociologist.)  Each book
tends to take a social trend which currently worries 'concerned
individuals' (Stand on Zanzibar - population; Sheep Look Up -
pollution; Jagged Orbit - arms and 'security'; Shockwave Rider -
computerization) and extrapolates it into the near future.

BUT... recently he released his latest 'big book' (The Crucible of
Time - I've seen mention of it here before).  I snatched it up as
soon as I saw it, and still, several months later, haven't finished
it.  It's a complete change of style for him, and I'm sorry to say I
found it very boring.  I only hope that when the next one is
published (the interval is ususally about two years) he reverts to
the 'social' as opposed to 'scientific' speculation I like so much.

Anyone else like this kind of stuff?

Patrick Curran
Interactive Systems Corp.
     ...ihnp4!ima!ism780!patrick

------------------------------

From: ISM780!chris@topaz
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 6 Mar 85 05:24:15 GMT

The Crudcible of Time is the only Brunner book i've ever not
finished. I usually read them in one big gulp, or two large bites. I
worked on TCOT for about two weeks, and gave it back to the library.
I hope it doesn't start a trend.

                        chris
                        devax!vortex!ism780!chris

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: DUNE books
Date: 5 Mar 85 17:07:52 GMT

"Heretics of Dune" should be out in paperback shortly.  There is a
sixth book in the works, I forget the title.

James C Armstrong, Jnr.
{ ihnp4 || allegra || mcnc || cbosgb } !abnji!jca

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz (Herb Chong [DCS])
Subject: Re: DUNE books
Date: 6 Mar 85 00:00:45 GMT

chandave@ncoast.UUCP (Davy Chan) writes:
>  Does anyone have some information on any books after the fourth
>DUNE book entitled "God Emperor of Dune".  I just read through all
>four books and am breaking out in hives waiting to see how the next
>one will be.

heretics of dune came out last year.  you will want to get it if you
simply MUST have all the dune books.  as far as a book goes, it's
neither here nor there.  so why did i buy the hardcover edition?
good question.  it wasn't really worth it.

Herb Chong...

I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 85  18:21 EST (Wed)
From: Mijjil <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Cc: ncoast!chandave@topaz
Subject: DUNE books

    The fifth DUNE book is called "HERETICS OF DUNE" and has been
out since early 1984 in hardcover.  I don't think it is in trade or
regular paperback just yet.

    There is, believe it or not, a 6th volume coming out this
spring, called "CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE".  This one (#6) is supposed
going to finally END the "DUNE saga".  (This has been said before!)

In closing I include my favourite quote of Frank Herbert:

"I'm still against the idea of sequels in principle, because it's
like watering down your wine all the time until you're left with
just water."

                           Frank Herbert,
                              author of
                                DUNE
                            DUNE MESSIAH
                          CHILDREN OF DUNE
                         GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE
                          HERETICS OF DUNE
                        and CHAPTERHOUSE:DUNE

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 13:19 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Five Million Years to Earth

In response to Mark Leeper's response to my response about FMYTE:

Like I said the first time, I thought Five Million Years to Earth
had an interesting premise.  The attempt to explain occult phenomena
in scientific terms is something I enjoy (see last paragraph). But I
can think of a several films that were more thought provoking, such
as 2001, 1984 (the new version), Bladerunner etc.

Its a matter of taste, like you say, and this film left a sour one
in my mouth.  It came off as cheap sixties pseudo-scientific occult.
And yes, Horror.  Scientist finds strange thing that threatens all
of mankind, and promptly figures it out and destroys it. Sometimes
the scientist dies, sometimes not.  No, there weren't any
mass-murders. Nothing came out of the shadows to strangle young
maidens.  But it fits nonetheless.

Ah, Andromeda Strain. Now there's a movie I really liked.  It had a
horror element, yes. But, it was predominantly SF.  Most
importantly, it was well constructed, well written, well acted, and
it had a very interesting premise.

If that doesn't qualify it, I don't know what does.

My criteria for 'best' are: a good story well told.  The 'well told'
part is very important to me.  If the quality of production, acting,
etc.  does not aid in my suspension of disbelief, then it may
detract from the film.

For instance, I felt that 2001 was a good story well told. 2010
("lets watch Roy Scheider sweat") was a good book, but the movie was
not as well done.  (I liked this movie, but I wouldn't call it
'best'.)  Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan was excellent, Star Trek I:
TMP ("Lets watch what the special effects crew can do") was not.
Superman I and II were good stories, but what I really enjoyed was
the 'well told' part.  Superman III: The Richard Pryor Show was
awful.  Bladerunner was excellent in all respects.

A little shift to fantasy: Conan I was very well made, and was even
a good story.  Wizards : excellent in both story and production.
Bakshi's Tolkein stuff was a good story that was hacked to little
bits.  Raiders of the Lost Arc fits both.  Indy Jones and the Temple
of Spooky Stuff was horrible in both aspects.

I hope that these examples show what my criteria are for good and
bad SF films.

Five Million Years to Earth was an fair story with a interesting
premise.  I felt that it wasn't made very well.  Mediocre acting,
weak cinematography, poor directing, etc., etc.  It misses both
marks.

BTW, if you want to read a book that puts a very similar premise
forward, read The Twelfth Planet by an author I don't remember.  The
author explains the Gods of ancient Sumerian and Biblical myth as
travellers from the twelfth planet, a planet with a very eccentric
orbit, who genetically engineer humans from premen (Neanderthal or
whatever) and themselves to be used as slaves.  He uses historical
references to back himself up. Mostly the Bible and other Hebrew,
Sumerian, and Babylonian texts.  I think astrology and other occult
things get tied in here somehow.

Brett Slocum

(I know this was a little long, but at least I didn't include all of
the previous messages in little arrow brackets. I try to use those
arrows sparingly.)

------------------------------

From: lcuxc!kenw@topaz (K Wolman)
Subject: Re: TESTAMENT
Date: 6 Mar 85 16:00:59 GMT

At some "realistic" level, "Testament" may indeed have
underestimated the prolonged horrors of a nuclear war aftermath in
ways "Threads" did not.  But the death of the mother's (Jane
Alexander's) little boy (remember the scene at the sink?)  and her
almost maniacal search for his teddy-bear told me more than I ever
wanted to know about a particular part of that horror.

The deaths that follow seem to have a lessening impact until, by the
end of the film, the viewer is damned near numb.  This could be a
flaw, or a far-too-successful realization of what used to be
considred a "fallacy," i.e., Imitative Form.

Ken Wolman
Bell Communications Research @ Livingston, NJ
lcuxc!kenw

------------------------------

From: udenva!zmh10@topaz (zmh10)
Subject: Re: Best SF <[DFilm
Date: 5 Mar 85 21:40:33 GMT

> From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
> On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called
> UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title .

 The title is THX 1138.  The first film by everyone's pal George
Lucas.  The phrase THX 1138 shows up as Harrison Ford's license
plate in American Graffiti and as a serial number in Star Wars Also,
THX is the name of Lucasfilm's new sound system.  Neat, hunh?

Steve Howard.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 10:22 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Earth II

In regards to Earth II, I thought that this was a movie starring
Gary Lockwood (??) about an astronaut that crash lands on the
duplicate of Earth that orbits the sun directly opposite Earth.

The government is very repressive and is trying to capture him
because they know he's from outside, and they are afraid he will
start trouble.  He escapes to some sort of underground organization
and does start trouble.

I don't remember a lot of the details, but I remember that at the
end he washes up on a beach, and the bad guys think he is dead.

This may or may not be Earth II.  Please clarify.

I remember the movie mentioned, about the space station that disarms
a Chinese nuclear warhead. I don't know what it was called.
Alzheimer's Disease strikes again.

                                - Brett Slocum

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 15:28 EST
From: Mark F Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: 

After 21 years of Dr. Who (of which I have only seen 2 yrs.) they
can't (and shouldn't) stop (or even pause) production!!!! Especially
since The DR. still has a very large audience.

The only Dr. Who's that I have seen so far are Baker,Davidson, and
Pertwee (in that order).

The two networks that show Dr. Who here(that I can pick up) have
finished the Davidson series, and now one is showing Pertwee and the
other is going back to the start of Tom Baker.

I wish they'd show the earlier Dr.s also.. I would like to find out
just how the Dr. started his adventures..

I once saw a movie that had Dr. Who and the Daleks, but it said
nothing of Timelords or Galifrey.. The Tardis in the movie was made
by the Dr.'s experimentation... In one part of the movie he looses a
vital part of the Tardis mechanism and must recover it..

I seem to remember the leading character(Dr.) looking like the
pictures of the first Dr. I've seen during the series("The 5
Doctors") Was this the beginning of Dr. Who???

See ya
Mark Rand
Acknowledge-To: Mark F Rand <TIGQC356@CUNYVM>

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  6 Mar 1985 03:14:45-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: THE PEOPLE

> From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford       (Jeff Rogers)
>      Does anyone remember a made for TV movie that was adapted
> from Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE and entitled, succinctly, "The
> People"?
>
>      I saw this movie when I was quite young, must have been
> gradeschool or junior high, and I remember it as being wonderful.
> Yet it's been so long, I'm wondering whether I've got it correct.
> Was it really based on PILGRIMAGE or were there just similarities?
> I also can't remember a single actor in it. Thanks for any help.

You're not imagining things. THE PEOPLE was a made-for-tv movie,
shown on ABC back in 1971. The screenplay was by James M. Miller,
and it was indeed based on Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE: THE BOOK OF
THE PEOPLE.  The director was John Korty, and the executive producer
was, believe it or not, Francis Ford Coppola. I'm surprised that you
don't remember any of the cast, considering that the star of the
movie was William Shatner. Two other "name" actors in the cast were
Dan O'Herlihy and Kim Darby.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Mar 85 1335-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #90
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:

          Books - Asprin (2 msgs) & Bischoff & Robinson &
                  Vinge & Computers in SF & Group Minds,
          Television - Dr. Who,
          Miscellaneous - Boskone 22

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 1985 1958 PST
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Dave Lampe's question on Asprin quote

This is to answer Dave Lampe's question of the meaning of Asprin's
quote in one of his books :

                Don't be fooled by appearances.
                                    Malloy

John T. Molloy (not Malloy) wrote a book called "Dress for Success".
It was an artifact of the mid 70s.  The gist of the book is that
appearances do count and will affect your professional success
significantly regardless of personal competency.  I believe the
above is derived from this.

------------------------------

From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth)
Subject: Re: Asprin's Mythical Books
Date: 7 Mar 85 01:54:50 GMT

Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk! I never did like the cover art
on the "Thieves' World" books. "Another Fine Myth" and
"Myth-conceptions" in the Starblaze editions were first illustrated
by Frank Kelly Freas. I dislike Phil's work, but compared to this
other guy (the "Thieves' World" artist), he's tolerable.

Kelly's portrayal of the characters is a lot like I visualize them.
Skeeve looks like Skeeve, and Aahz looks like Aahz instead of an
all-teeth dumb-grin green slimy monster.

By the way, there's a 5th one out now: "Mything Persons". The door
gets opened (see "Hit or Myth"), and we get to find out what's
behind it. . . .  excellent book, and leaves me dying in
anticipation for a sequel.

After someone else reads this, please mail me a message speculating
on the absence of Calvin. I haven't figured that (among other
things) out yet.
                                Red

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Bischoff: _Destiny Dice_, Mild Spoiler
Date: 3 Mar 85 22:13:40 GMT

LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA writes:
> ...However, I am now reading Destiny Dice or somesuch by Bischoff,
>which not only is a spoof of itself, but also contains concealed
>puns and word-play as well. For some reason, perhaps because
>Bischoff realizes how silly he is being, which I do not think is
>the case with Anthony, I am enjoying the book.

I just finished reading this, _Destiny Dice_, _The Gaming Magis I_,
by David Bischoff, who wrote Wargames.

The book is about a group of magicians who play a complex game that
affects another level of reality.  The book flips intermittently
between the two levels, and, as Laurence noted, there are a number
of puns and purposeful faux pas involved (like Marines in the
fantasy world, etc.)

It's pretty clear from reading the book that Bischoff is a gamer
himself.  The game the gaming magi play is close to D&D, and there
are a number of inside jokes and extrapolations based on the game
(the destiny dice, role vs. roll playing, and so on).

I don't mind books that do confuse the levels between the reader,
the author, the story (and in this case, the fantasy below the
magi), but while I found this book inoffensive, I didn't think
Bischoff pulled this off as well as others have (Vonnegut and
Robbins come to mind).  I should also point out that this is the
first book in a series, and definitely is not a complete book in
itself.

[As an aside, I find this very annoying.  When did it become the
habit to write series in which the individual books cannot stand
alone?]

Mildly interesting, more so if you are a gamer.
                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 1985 15:25:47-EST
From: wad@Mitre-Bedford

        I'm interested in finding out what other people thought of
Spider Robinson's book MINDKILLER.  I thought it was excellent, one
of the best I've read.  I particularly enjoyed his use of concepts
previously developed by other authors i.e. Niven's concept of
wireheading being the next social evil after drugs and alcohol.  It
was clever how things did not come together until the final
chapters.  This book is begging for a sequel !!  Comments on any of
Robinson's other work would also be of interest.

                                        Bill Dowling
                                        MITRE Corp.
                                        Bedford, MA

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 85 08:00 PST
From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #87
Cc: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA

Micro-Review:
Snow Queen by Joan Vinge

A great book! The milieu is not as 'real' as some, but this is a
minor problem since the characters, relationships, and politics are
so good.

Micro-Review:
World's End by Joan Vinge

Also a great book! This is a stream of consciousness novel. I have
not read many in that style, and it is the first SF novel in that
style I have ever read. This is much shorter than SNOW QUEEN, and
the emphasis is different, but it is really good!

I read both of these on a recommendation I saw in SF-Lovers. Thanks!

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 85 15:22 EST
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Computer Science Fiction

There is also a book called "The Cybernetic Imagination in Science
Fiction" which provides some critical insights into the genre (it's
home so I can't tell you the editors).  See also "The Omni Book of
Robots and Computers" (I think that's the title) for a collection of
CSF short stories.
                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 10:22 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Group Mind

> I vaguely recall a story in which a group mind is formed when a
> retarded farm hand meets up with a mongoloid child, a child with
> telekinetic abilities and a pair of telepathic (naked) twins.

This is More than Human by Theo. Sturgeon, which I mentioned in
regards to group minds.
                                      - Brett Slocum

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Why Doctor Who is a great series
Date: 7 Mar 85 05:00:00 GMT

This is posted to net.sf-lovers because it is a description of why
Doctor Who is good and should not be cancelled, and to post only to
the Doctor Who group would be preaching to the converted.

Doctor Who has lasted so long because it has, very simply, the best
format ever dreamed up for an SF adventure series.  It's a format
with checks and balances, change and continuity, adventure and
comedy, drama and romance, plus a whole pile of other things rolled
up into one.

Every Doctor Who fan knows they often have silly scripts and bad
sfx.  Some companions are good and some are bad.  But it always
balances out.

1) A single central character.
    This is the show's greatest vulnerability, but also a great
    strength.  The writers are free to change anything but this
    character, and even that gets to change every few years.  No
    matter what else goes wrong, the Doctor character saves the show
    and makes it entertaining.  Because there is a single character,
    you can concentrate efforts and make sure your doctor is the
    kind of actor who can do this.  Although they came close to
    missing with Davison
2) Short-lived continuing characters
    Few other shows have this.  It lets you bring in new interesting
    characters, and give them time to develop.  You don't have to
    keep them so long that they get stale, however.
3) Serial format
    This gives you the suspense of a soap, but breaks it up into
    nicer chunks so that you aren't as required to watch every show.
    It allows each writer to prepare a fully developed story
    independent of the other writers, and gives enough time (full
    movie-length) to do all that is necessary.  Even characters for
    a single serial can be properly developed.  It also allows
    bringing in character actors for nice short-term roles.  And
    it's cheaper to produce than one-hour SF which requires twice
    the sets.
4) Time/Space/Probability travel
    They don't like to admit the last one, but each story is almost
    independent of the rest.  This has the strength of the Twilight
    Zone, but the combination of continuity allows the show to get a
    following, and the creation of stars.  You can't go wrong here,
    as you can take any kind of story and work with it.  I wish they
    would go further, and invite well known SF authors to write
    serials based in their own worlds.
5) The Character of the Doctor
    Wise, lovable, whimsical, caring, cynical and pompous all at the
    same time.  This always makes the show no matter what else
    happens.  This also ties into the fact that the show, with
    origins as a children's show, has never taken itself so
    seriously as to get offensive.

These factors, with others, combine to make the best series format
ever created.  No wonder it has gone 23 years.  Sadly they don't
have the money to a) Improve the effects b) Hire real SF writers and
c) Get name character actors.  If they did, you would have a show
that can't be beat.

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 1 March 1985, 15:52-EST
From: James M Turner <jmturn at LMI-CAPRICORN>
Subject: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution:flamethrower set on broil)

    From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison)

    I've just returned from Boskone 22, and the news is not good.
    As usual, they had more people than they wanted; 2300 was the
    last number I heard.  Actually I was so disgusted with the fall
    of NESFA that I didn't bother going to the con Sunday and
    Monday.  First, however, the good news:

Actually, the final number is 3540, with 3400 warm bodies.

    o the parties were shut down by the hotel at 3 AM.  Somebody
      didn't do their work correctly; that's way too early.
       (ok-hotel problem)

Very much a hotel problem. Marriott is run by the Mormons, something
we didn't find out about until *after* the convention. We had *lots*
of trouble with high level management causing trouble. If you had
problems with the hotel, please write a letter to Marriott Corporate
headquarters and let them know. If I was better prepared, I'd have
their address for you, but your local Marriott will be happy to give
it to you.

    o the elevators apparently read HHTTG, since they went on strike
      for most of the con, making it an exercise in patience to get
      to the various parties.  (ok, another hotel problem)

Westinghouse was truely amazed that 3 of 6 elevators were broken
Saturday morning, something that had never happened in their
experience. Fans kill elevators, fact.

    I will never again have anything to do with Boskone, NESFA, or
    their attempts at getting the '89 ('90?) worldcon, except
    possibly to work against the last.

A common misconception, MCFI (Massachusetts Convention Fandom, Inc)
runs Noreascons, while NESFA runs Boskones. They are seperate
organizations, both financially and in terms of membership, although
there is overlap.

    They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission
    <= , the same as for the full event.  I thought this was
    suspicious, especially since the people working the registration
    desk offered the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges
    we can't tell one day people from all-weekend people".  In less
    than 10 minutes in theregistration area I heard *at least* 10
    people express surprise and disgust...but they still paid.  The
    same people ran the '80 worldcon, had more people and still had
    day memberships.  So the excuse is pure bu******.

Actually, we do have one day memberships, on Sundays. Our basic
philisophy is that with 3500 people coming, we really don't want
*even more* warm bodies. That's why we don't advertise, or even
place listings in coming events notices (like the Globe's Calendar
section). And we don't charge $22 for one day admission, we charge
$22 period (except Sunday).

    What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a
    uniform $22.00: greed.  Yep, GREED.  The *** are buying a
    clubhouse and are using fen from all over the northeast to
    generate money for their relatively private use.  "But they
    deserve it, they've put on great cons for 42 +/- something
    years".  Yep, they've put on great cons (interesting how they've
    slightly adjusted the meaning of the word, eh?)  but this is a
    gross violation and ripoff of everything fandom has stood for.

Wake up and smell the coffee, all the major conventions make money.
And if you think a clubhouse is going to be a private retreat, think
again.  Most of the motivation for getting one is so we have a
centralized location to run our activities out of. Among other
things, this means we can run better Boskones.

As the person who ran pre-registration this year, accusations of
greed really piss me off. I put in a couple of hundred hours
slogging through thousands of pieces of mail, and I didn't even get
a membership refund, much less a room refund. No one on the
committee did.

    (as an aside, the '80 worldcon had an approximately $32,000
    profit, so the Worldcon committee knows what they're doing
    [figure from the Noreascon Memory book]).

Actually, about $20,000, and LACon II made close to 200K. Both
groups funneled most (in Noreascon's case, all) of their excess
revenue back into fan groups and charitable causes. Most of the
Noreascon money went to the Connie Bailout and funding for things
like recording SF for the blind. None of it went to NESFA (except
for cross-charges) or Boston in
'89.

    o I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video
      schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff
      (no not him!) off the streets coming in "just to see the
      movies".  Phoooooeeeeey.

We've identified the film program as a "action item", which is
something that had problems this year. Most of the committee didn't
like the schedule either, and an attempt will be made to place films
at more convienient times next year.

    (part II): I guess the yuppie-me-generation selfishness can
    reach all types.  For some reason I thought fen were different.

NESFA yuppies? Most of NESFA's been in Fandom since the late
sixties, or earlier.

Comments: For some reason, people always seem to get confused on
these issues. The "money grubbing NESFAn" image is hard to shake.
People look at our publishing section, and say "My, they must make a
fortune off those books", when in reality we just about break even
on most. They confuse fiscal responsiblity with greediness.

Is $22 a lot of money? If you went to a professional conference,
you'd pay an order of magnitude more (at least) for maybe 1/3 of
the programming and activities. With planning, you don't even have
to pay $22. Pre-reg was $16 for the past year. In fact, $22 is about
what most *large* regionals charge at the door, and about a third of
what Worldcon's charge. It's maybe 30% of the hotel bill for someone
staying for the weekend (4 to the room), and about what you'll spend
for a day's meals. And it gets you 24 hour/day films, 4-5 tracks of
programming, an art show and dealers room, and a well stocked con
suite.

We don't hide the fact that we make money on Boskones. Our newszine
publishes the balance sheets for the last Boskone every year, and
all the major SF periodicals (SFC and Locus) get it. The fact that
they don't find it newsworthy should indicate that it isn't unusual.

Our meetings are always open to non-NESFAn, especially Boskone
Committee meetings. If you have an opinion about Boskone, we
*really* do want to hear from you. If you can't make them, or want
to know when they are held, write to:

        NESFA
        Box G, MIT Branch Post Office
        Cambridge, MA 02139-0910

                                                James Turner
UUCP: ...decvax!physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn
ARPA: JMTURN@MIT-MC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Mar 85 1617-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #91
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Vinge &
                         Nebula Award Nominations & 
                         Upcoming Releases &
                         A Story Request,
                 Films - Best SF Movie Poll Results & 
                         The Forbin Project
                 Television - The Prisoner,
                 Miscellaneous - The Imp of the Perverse (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ddb%mrvax.DEC@topaz (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: Brunner -- TCoT
Date: 7 Mar 85 15:41:52 GMT

Humph.  I was very fond of The Crucible of Time.  I also liked
Shockwave Rider very much, and enjoyed The Sheep Look Up, Stand on
Zanzibar, and The Jagged Orbit.

I thought TCoT WAS sociological SF, it just had a more alien
sociology to play around with.  Actually, although the aliens were
very alien (I thought they were well done) the basic sociology was,
to my mind, essentially human.

(By the way, did anybody else notice that for a LONG time before
TCoT came out, there were no Brunner paperbacks in most bookstores
(I exclude SF specialty stores)?  It was terrible, there was nothing
to separate Brooks from Brust)

An older Brunner book that I enjoyed very much is The Traveller in
Black.  It's essentially fantasy rather than SF, it might not appeal
for the same reasons as his other books; but it's very good.

                -- David Dyer-Bennet
                -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 85 1339 EST (Friday)
From: Dave Ackley <David.Ackley@CMU-CS-A.ARPA>
Subject: Brunner's The Crucible of Time

A couple of recent messages have described Brunner's latest novel,
The Crucible of Time, as unfinishable.  I did finish it.  It is a
book easier to appreciate than to love.  Brunner set himself a
difficult task for the book: No humans ever appear.  No humanoid
aliens, no genetically altered human stock, no first-contact with
space-faring humans, nothing.

It is certainly possible to fulfill this constraint in a
more-or-less trivial way, by taking any story one likes and
replacing "Earth" with "Grotz", "marriage" with "conflockage", and
so on.  Brunner wanted more \alien/ aliens than that.

But if there are no human-like characters, the aliens can't be \too/
alien.  Imagine Lem's Solaris without a human presence.  If the
alien mind is unfathomable, and there are no humans, there is no
story.

Parts of The Crucible of Time were slow, but I quite appreciated the
line that Brunner walked between syntactically alien humans and
semantically incomprehensible aliens.  Borrow the book and give it a
try.
        -Dave Ackley    (Ackley@CMU-CS-A)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 21:41 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Worlds End

I read /Worlds End/ a while back, and was not grossly impressed,
although for some reason I feel I ought to have liked the book
better than I actually did.  One thing to note about the book is
that it is a sequel to /Snow Queen/ only in that the main character
was a character in /Snow Queen/, whose name I've forgotten (B. B.
something?) (it has been a while).

* Mild spoiler *
Said main character is the policeman who, after leaving the /Snow
Queen/ planet is reassigned elsewhere.  At the beginning of the
book, his (or is it her?) brothers show up and reveal that they've
lost the family fortune (and honor), and head into the unpleasant
area of the planet that gives the book its name in search of wealth
and/or death.  After feeling sorry for himself, the policeman
follows them, and the rest of the book is about him searching for
his brothers while pretending to look for wealth, and more I shant
say because I'd probably get it wrong.

* End spoiler *

Anyway, as I said, I didn't like the book that much, but when I
heard Joan Vinge read a passage from it, it sounded better that I
remembered, and I've been meaning to reread it ever since, but
haven't gotten around to it.

Mark

------------------------------

From: ahutb!ecl@topaz (ecl)
Subject: Nebula Award Nominations
Date: 6 Mar 85 18:41:28 GMT

                   1985 NEBULA AWARD NOMINATIONS

Novel:
   THE MAN WHO MELTED, Jack Dann (Bluejay)
   NEUROMANCER, William Gibson (Ace)
   JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE, Robert A. Heinlein (Del Rey)
   THE INTEGRAL TREES, Larry Niven (Del Rey)
   THE WILD SHORE, Kim Stanley Robinson (Ace)
   FRONTERA, Lewis Shiner (Baen)

Novella:
   "Young Dr. Esterhazy," Avram Davidson (11/84 AMZ)
   "Trinity," Nancy Kress (10/84 IASFM)
   "The Greening of Bedstuy," Frederik Pohl (7/84 F&SF)
   "A Traveler's Tale," Lucius Shepard (7/84 IASFM)
   "Marrow Death," Michael Swanwick (mid-Dec/84, IASFM)
   "Press Enter[]," John Varley (5/84 IASFM)

Novelette:
   "Bloodchild," Octavia Butler (6/84 IASFM)
   "Bad Medicine," Jack Dann (10/84 IASFM)
   "Saint Theresa of the Aliens," James P. Kelly (6/84 IASFM)
   "The Lucky Strike," Kim Stanley Robinson (UNIVERSE 14)
   "The Man Who Painted the Dragon Griaule," Lucius Shepard
      (12/84 F&SF)
   "Trojan Horse," Michael Swanwick (12/84 OMNI)

Short Story:
   "Morning Child," Gardner Dozois (1/94 OMNI)
   "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, EVERYTHING," George Alec Effinger
      (10/84 F&SF)
   "Salvador," Lucius Shepard (4/84 F&SF)
   "Sunken Gardens," Bruce Sterling (6/84 OMNI)
   "The Eichmann Variations," George Zebrowski (LIGHT YEARS & DARK)
   "A Cabin on the Coast," Gene Wolfe (2/84 F&SF)

(Note that "Ace Science Fiction Specials" authors dominate the list:
Gibson has his book nominated, Robinson has his book and a
novelette, Shepard has 3(!)  short pieces, and Swanwick has 2 short
pieces.  A pretty impressive group of authors.)

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
Note temporary kluge for new address =>
 ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ahutb!ecl

(List courtesy of SF CHRONICLE.)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 85 02:55:23 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Books!

     Here is a listing I got from a friend to post...slightly late
but still useful:

Upcoming SF from Bantam's Spectra line, as gathered from a promo
flyer at the Bantam party at Boskone.

MEDEA: Harlan's World.  Edited by Harlan Ellison.  Stories from many
top pros set on a common, designed world.  This time for sure Rocky!
In trade pb, out in June.

Child of Fortune.  Norman Spinrad.  The star-flung odyssey of a
young woman through the heights and depths of an exotic interstellar
culture.  In hb, August.

The Last Rainbow.  Parke Godwin.  A tale of two lovers--Dorelei, the
beautiful leader of the Faerie, and the young priest who would
eventually become St.  Patrick.  Trade pb, July.

Beloved Exile. Parke Godwin.  Regular size pb, June.

The Proteus Operation.  James Hogan.  A sf thriller of a commando
team sent back in time to prevent Hitler's >victory< in WWII.
Hb October.

The Dream Years.  Lisa Goldstein (author of Red Magician).  A
fantasy about a young Surrealist from the 20's and a woman from the
'68 Paris riots who cross time to discover love and hope in a
visionary future.  Hb September

The Postman. David Brin.  The adventures of a man after a nuclear
war (probably strung together from the stories in Isaac Asimov's).
Hb November.

The Uplift War. David Brin.  In the Startide Rising universe, the
saga of the Progenitors continues in a tale of a planet resisting
invasion. (I suspect that this is the book that had the working
title of Gorilla).  Mass market December. (nice that this book
is coming out first in pb, as the other two in the series did)

The Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities.  Samuel Delaney.  The
concluding volume of the epic begun in Stars in My Pocket Like
Grains of Sand.  Hb, December.

The Stars... book will be in mass market for in September.

West of Eden.  Harry Harrison.  pb edition out in July.

A Stainless Steel Rat is Born. Harry Harrison.  The origin of
Slippery Jim Di Griz (noted as never before published, so presumably
deals with his life before he "reformed").  pb, October.

The Book of Kells. R.A. MacAvoy.  A young artist is transported to
10th century Ireland.  pb, August.

Venus of Dreams. Pamela Sargent.  The first book in a series of
unknown length about the struggle to colonize Venus.  pb October.

Gilgamesh the King. Robert Silverberg.  A fantasy based on the
biblical character.  pb November.

Polar Fleet.  Warren Norwood.  Next book in "The Double Spiral War"
series.  pb June.

The Darkling Wind. Somtow Sucharitkul.  A saga of the end of a
millenia old galactic empire.  July pb.

The Christening Quest.  Elizabeth Scarborough.  A fantasy in the
Chronicles of Argonia series.  pb, August.

Threshold.  David Palmer.  First in a series about far future
humanity's struggle to preserve itself against a deadly cosmic
force.  pb November.

Note that in Bantam's attempt to create a "separate" sf line, they
are following the practice of mainstream in pricing their main books
higher than their second rank books.  At least I hope that pbs won't
be $3.50 and $3.95 by the end of the year!

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 85 02:58:51 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Yet another question.....

Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of children's
books about three siblings, two male and one female, of whom the
older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, Theodore, is known as
"The Toad".  The kids have a dowager mentor, Mrs. Dextrose-Chesapeake,
and a male tortoise-shell cat, coveted by Mrs.  D-C due to its
genetic impossibility.  The Toad engages in such unsavory activities
as writing semi-obscene filks to "Good King Wenceslaus" and
practicing home voodoo with a kit ordered through a comic book ad
(the kit works).

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: ukc!lkt@topaz (L.K.Turner)
Subject: USENET Poll Results!!! (Best SF movie)
Date: 6 Mar 85 17:54:55 GMT

   Now , the moment you have been waiting for , the results of the
USENET poll to determine the best S.F film. Many thanks to all those
people who sent in their votes. Sorry for the delay , but weve had
some problems down here recently.

   Before the results , just a few words on how the votes were
counted. In my original posting I didnt specifly the form of the
votes , ideally I wanted a single choice.

   If the posting deviated from this , I applied the following
criteria:

   (1). If someone sent in a list of films in 1,2,3 order , I took
        the first choice.

   (2). If they sent in a list of films and

        (a). they couldnt decide between them or

        (b). they said the selection of the best SF film depended on
             the definition of SF used.

        Then in both cases I split the vote equally between the
        films in the list , that is why some films have fractional
        votes.

So now without further ado , here are the results :-

[ From 32 mail repiles ]

Position          Film Title                              Votes cast

    1.        2001 : A space odyssey                        9

    2.        Bladerunner                                   5

    3.        Forbidden Planet                              4

    4.        Star wars                                     3

    5.        Solaris  (USSR)                               1 1/3

    6.        Alien                                         1
              Barbarella                                    1
              Dark Star                                     1
              Liquid sky                                    1
              Return of the Jedi                            1
              Stalker  (USSR)                               1
              The day the earth stood still                 1
              The Lathe of heaven (TV movie)                1

    14.       Wargames                                        1/2
              The man in the white suit                       1/2

    16.       Fahrenheit 451                                  1/3
              Invasion of the body snatchers (original)       1/3

  Once again many thanks to all whose who participated in the poll.

  Now *what* do you think of the results ?

UUCP: ...!{ philabs,decvax,semiso}!mcvax!ukc!lkt  OR
      ...!ucbvax!decvax!mcvax!ukc!lkt ,
      ...!ihnp4!semiso!mcvax!ukc!lkt
                              L.K.Turner
ARPA: lkt%ukc@ucl-cs          Computing Lab. , University of Kent
                              Canterbury , Kent CT2 7NF , England.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7-Mar-85 13:47:24 PST
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@rand-unix>
Subject: Forbin Project

It was an amusing film, but was certainly unreasonable.  I mean,
would *you* ever rig up a computer *you* had programmed so that you
couldn't turn it off and couldn't bypass it in any manner?

By the way, this was one of the films that we screened during the
early production phases of the first "Star Trek" movie (I was
working for the firm that was doing the special effects at the time)
and it helps to show where poor old "Vejur" got some of his
inspiration.

(Don't blame me for ST-I!  I thought the script sucked.)

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 85 11:21:41 EST
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Prisoner: Who Is Number Six? - SPOILER!!!

Derek Barkyr may know WHOM he prefers listening to, but I know WHAT
I prefer as final authority: the series itself.

In "Once Upon a Time" (2nd-to-last episode; McGoohan vs. Leo
McKern), Number Two tries to break Number Six by forcing Six to
relive Six's life (the idea being that when they reach Six's
resignation, Six would spill the beans).  They reach a point in
Six's life where Six is (I guess) a student in a public (Am. equiv.
"private") school.  Two plays headmaster and shouts at Six: "I'll
see you in my study, Drake!"

Unless I misheard this sentence, here is direct proof FROM THE
SERIES ITSELF that Six is Drake.  McGoohan and Markstein can give us
all the personal interpretation they want, but if it conflicts with
established continuity (and they can't give an explanation why this
isn't really a conflict, e.g., someone shows where Six's first name
ISN'T John), then it is WRONG!  McGoohan WROTE this episode!  He
should know!

<iron bars close on the signature of>
Chris Jarocha-Ernst

------------------------------

Date: Wed 6 Mar 85 23:11:15-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #86

Why should Maxwell's demon be the personification of Murphy's Law?
If Maxwell's Demon, a supposedly infallible judge of slow and fast
molecules, existed, he would put the Air Conditioner Industry out of
business (after violating uncertainty and entropy laws, why should
multilocation be so hard?)

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 85 11:05:33 EST
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Tonite's bout: Imp of the Perverse vs. Maxwell's Demon

I don't know where you get the impression that the Imp of the
Perverse is at all related to Murphy's Law.  In Poe's short story
(not an essay, as earlier reported), the Imp is merely a name given
to certain self-destructive tendencies.  Poe gives an example of
someone on the edge of a precipice, looking down and wondering what
it would feel like to jump.  Of course, it would be fatal...  But
what would it *feel* like?  As you dwell more heavily on a
self-destructive option, Poe says, the "Imp" tries to make that
option, not more attractive, but more likely.  The story itself
involves someone who has committed The Perfect Crime... but (of
course) no one knows about it, so no one knows how clever he is.  To
tell would surely lead to prison.  But, *Damn*, it was a clever
stunt.

Get the idea?  Knowing that this self-destructive tendency is caused
by the "Imp" doesn't help; the tendency remains.  I assume that's
what the button's creator meant.

Poe's story has nothing to do with Maxwell's Demon.

In fact, I can't see what Murphy's Law has to do with Maxwell's
Demon.

Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Mar 85 1646-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #92
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 9 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Cherryh & Author Request,
                 Films - Testament (2 msgs) & Star Wars & 
                         Star Trek (2 msgs),
                 Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & 
                         Henderson on TV (2 msgs) &
                         Space Patrol,
                 Miscellaneous - Boskone (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wakemanla%sanfan.DEC@topaz
Subject: Another Female Author of merit
Date: 6 Mar 85 20:15:37 GMT

One female author I have enjoyed is C. J. Cherryh.  Some of her
stuff can be rather heavy (such as the Morganna trilogy) but some is
rather easily readable.  I have found her books to be all very
enjoyable.

Larry Wakeman
Digital-San Francisco

------------------------------

From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARP
From: A
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 20:20:40 EST
Subject: Request for Solar Sailing author

I just saw a description of a story called "Sun Jammer" which is
about a race of Solar Sails from earth orbit to the moon in a sort
of lunar regatta.  Could someone please tell me the author of this
story, and was it a novel or an article in a magazine?  Also, does
anyone else know of any other "Solar Sailing" SF?

                      Michael D'Alessandro
<<Internet>>: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: TESTAMENT
Date: 7 Mar 85 21:44:11 GMT

>At some "realistic" level, "Testament" may indeed have
>underestimated the prolonged horrors of a nuclear war aftermath in
>ways "Threads" did not.  But the death of the mother's (Jane
>Alexander's) little boy (remember the scene at the sink?)

Do I!

>and her almost maniacal search for his teddy-bear told me more than
>I ever wanted to know about a particular part of that horror.

Somehow there is more sadness in the death of one person than in the
death of millions.  When you hear that 30,000 people are killed in a
firestorm you do not feel 30,000 times as sad as when you hear one
person is killed, particularly if that person is someone you have
gotten to know.  It may be less painful for the world to go with a
bang than a whimper.  The scenes you mention are the most memorable
of the film, though others stand high.  I guess that is why I have
such mixed feelings about TESTAMENT.  It was a great film but
technically very (perhaps dangerously) inaccurate.  It left me
sadder than THREADS did.  There are forms of warfare for which what
is happening in the film is more in character with the facts.
TESTAMENT is somewhat closer to a possible scenario for
bacterialogical warfare then nuclear warfare.  Yes, there are still
problems there, but less of the film might have to be changed to
make it accurate to that situation.

>The deaths that follow seem to have a lessening impact until, by
>the end of the film, the viewer is damned near numb.

THREADS and THE WAR GAME stun and numb the viewer much faster to
individual deaths, but overall they are more frightening.  Less
depressing but more frightening.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 8:30:29 EST
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) <earl@BRL-VAT.ARPA>
To: lcuxc!kenw@topaz.ARPA
Subject: Re:  TESTAMENT

I think that TESTAMENT showed how little the average US citizen
knows about the nuclear radiation.  I'm sure we all agree that
nuclear war is the last thing we'd want.  But if the balloon does go
up, I'm not going to rush to fall on my sword.  Maybe it'll get cold
& we'll all perish, but I guarantee I'm not going to die from
radiation by immediately running around outside while it's hot as
those did in TESTAMENT.  If the unthinkable ever happens, and the
earth survives, I think it'll be a Mormon world.  Somebody told me
that Mormons are supposed to have several months' supplies of
staples and water to tide them over in times of want (and that
practice started long before anybody knew anything about nuclear
horrors).

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (leeper)
Subject: THX reference in STAR WARS
Date: 8 Mar 85 02:23:03 GMT

A week ago I posted the question, where was the reference to
THX-1138 in STAR WARS.  There is a minor trick here in that most
people assume that the book was identical to the film and so finding
the reference in the book would be finding it in the film.  Nope.  I
decided I would give credit for someone telling me where the
reference was in the book, if the answer included a mention that it
was from the book.  Either that or the reference had to be correct
from the film.  The reference was a line that Luke gave.  When he
was bringing Chewbacca into the cell block he said it was a prisoner
transfer from (not to) cell block one-one-three-eight.  Michael
Esco, Paul Chisholm, and Kenn Barry get credit.  Thank you for your
efforts.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz
Subject: re: STAR TREK II
Date: 6 Mar 85 11:44:31 GMT

> From: mit-eddie!barry (Mikki)
> Now, where can I get ST II with the additional scenes that were
> run on ABC.  Contrary to popular myth, they are NOT on the general
> release videotape.

(1) The only place you can get STII on videotape with the extra
footage is from someone who taped the broadcast. Cripes, it was only
on the other week! Give it some time and maybe Paramount will
release the expanded version on tape.

(2) The popular myth is not that the STII commercial videotape has
the extra footage. The popular truth is that the commercial
videotape of the *first* Trek movie has the extra footage that was
added to it for its tv broadcast.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz (ZNAC343)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV.
Date: 4 Mar 85 15:43:06 GMT

        Does anybody over in the states have any news on "STAR TREK
IV", we have have heard that Nimoy has signed up but Shatner is
still holding out.Is this true? Can anybody shed more light on the
subject ?

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Mar 1985 13:49-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Dr. Who

        I just called the Dr. Who Fan Club about the cancellation.
They assured me that it was only a temporary shut down of production
for 18 months so that they could change the time slot. Sounds like a
line to me. Once the show stops production, that's it. Even if they
resume, it won't be the same.  It never is. I still think we should
write letters.
                                        wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 14:45 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: More on Lew Grade

> From: ISM780!patrick@topaz
> As someone recently pointed out, Dr. Who is a BBC (non-commercial)
> as opposed to ITV (commercial) production.  Many of us Brits still
> can't abide to watch TV that has advertisements in it.  Anyway,
> one of the leading businessmen behind commercial TV in England is
> Lew Grade (now Sir Lew Grade).  I forget who said it, but when
> Parliament was first debating the introduction of commercial TV,
> one MP objected that to grant a commercial TV license was to grant
> a 'license to print money'.  Sure enough, Lew Grade and a handful
> of others became multi-millionaires, and just as inevitably, were
> granted "Honours" by the Queen (in reality, by the Prime Minister
> of the day).  This despite the critism from middle- class
> intellectuals that they were producing shoddy rubbish which
> pandered to the lowest in public taste.  In consequence of his ITV
> programming Lew Grade acquired the nickname "Low Greed".  I
> suspect that Anthony is a member of the family.  God help the BBC
> if these guys are now in charge.

Some of this information is a little out of date -- Lew Grade became
Lord Grade at some point before his death (sometime last year, I
think).

I can't comment on the rest of this, but in Grade's defense, he put
the Muppet Show on television when none of the American networks
would do so, and produced The Muppet Movie.  Should be enough to
have gotten him into heaven, despite any sins he might have
committed.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 14:42:08 pst
From: mab@aids-unix (Mike Brzustowicz)
Subject: Zenna Henderson's "The People"

I remember the made-for-TV movie "The People".  It was supposed to
be a pilot for a new series.  Unfortunately, it was a very poor
adaptation, sort of a revue.  The writers took several of the short
stories and attempted to make one story out of them.  The concepts
that Zenna Henderson portrays well were, in the movie, lost on
anyone who had not read the books.  (I remember, in particular the
concepts of Remembering [racial memory] and Old Ones [The leaders,
based on Psi ability] being botched to the point of seeming silly
even to ZH fans.)

[For ZH fans who have not seen the movie--they attempted to combine
the group at Bendo with the larger Group by Baldie--they captured
much of the down side of Bendo, but none of the light and magic of
the other Group.]

I recommend the two books about the people-- "Pilgrimage" and "The
People--No Different Flesh".  There was also a short story in
"Holding Wonder" which might have been a People story--it's been so
long since I've read it, but it read to me then (>10 yrs ago) as a
possibility for "The Bright Beginning"--the start of the People's
racial memory.

Aside from these three books, and a fourth, called "The Anything
Box" (All of which are short story collections, the first two having
a "Meta-story" woven around them [in the fashion of Susan Calvin
narration in "i robot"]), I don't know of any other books by her.
Has anyone else heard of any?

-Mike Brzustowicz
<mab@aids-unix>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 09:48 PST
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: TV movie based on Henderson's PILGRIMAGE....

    From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford

         Does anyone remember a made for TV movie that was
    adapted from Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE and entitled,
    succinctly, "The People"?

         I saw this movie when I was quite young, must have been
    gradeschool or junior high, and I remember it as being
    wonderful. Yet it's been so long, I'm wondering whether I've got
    it correct. Was it really based on PILGRIMAGE or were there just
    similarities? I also can't remember a single actor in it. Thanks
    for any help.

I believe it was an ABC Movie of the Week.  It starred Kim Darby and
William Shatner (remember him?) and was a pretty fair adaptation of
the Henderson story.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7-Mar-85 13:42:19 PST
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@rand-unix>
Subject: Space Patrol

"Space Patrol" hardly even counts as trivia anymore, since it runs
(sometimes several episodes a weekend) on USA Network's "Night
Flight" program regularly.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1985 11:02:10 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Boskone, Incorporation, and NESFA

     In a recent issue, a reader commented that the phrase "NESFA,
Inc."  implied that the group exists to make a profit, since they're
incorporated.  Sorry, but that's an unfounded assumption, as they
may well be a non-profit corporation, as most faanish institutions
tend to be (e.g., the WorldCons now incorporate in this fashion, as
do many local clubs, esp. if they intend to own property/libraries/
mimeo machines or to spend large amounts of money, as in putting on
a con).  The purpose of incorporating as a non-profit is simple: it
protects the individuals who work for the group.
     For instance, if a convention were put on by an unincorporated
group, and it lost money, *every* individual who could be proven to
have worked on that con -- even in an unpaid volunteer position --
could be hauled into court by the convention's creditors.  If the
group is incorporated, then no individual is liable for the group's
debts.  (However, if an individual associated with the group commits
a crime with the group's funds -- embezzlement or fraud, for
instance -- then that person can be tried.)
     The precise mechanism by which a group becomes a non-profit
corporation is defined by state law.  Once a group has incorporated,
though, they can also apply for tax-exempt status at both the state
and federal levels.  In most cases, this is done on the grounds that
the group is, in some way, serving an educational or cultural
purpose, as defined in section 401(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue
Code, though there are lots of other legal reasons for being
considered tax-exempt -- fraternal groups, religious organizations,
and so on.
     By the way, being a "non-profit" corporation doesn't mean that
you're trying to lose money.  Rather, if the group makes money, the
profit is not then distributed to the corporation's "owners", but
used to further the purpose that was stated in the groups Articles
of Incorporation.  So, if NESFA feels that setting up a permanent
structure for their clubhouse will help in some way to fulfill the
formally-stated goals that are in their charter (and this is almost
certainly the case, since such goals are usually stated in a manner
that allows broad interpretation), then their stated plan of using
any Boskone profits to help build/buy/furnish such a clubhouse is
not only reasonable, but laudable -- they're doing exactly what they
told you they were going to do.
     If you don't like the way NESFA goes about setting and
fulfilling its goals, the best thing you can do is to join and raise
your voice at meetings.  Using sf-lovers as a forum is probably a
waste of time, since this tends to be a collection of readers, not
of faans -- the typical total attendance at the annual sf-lovers
party at Worldcon, from what I've seen, is less than a hundred, and
there are many, many more readers out there . . .

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison)
Subject: My Boskone 22  flame &  responses: about 35 lines
Date: 3 Mar 85 18:02:09 GMT

I'd like to thank Mark Norton for his reply to my comments about my
flame about Boskone 22 & its apparent motives.  I'm relieved that
the Boskone profits are rolled over to the next con: all the con
committees that I've been associated with have done the same.  The
appearance, however, was that there was a direct relationship
between the one-day membership ripoff (which is what it was) and the
funding of the clubhouse.

I can't accept the contention that one-day memberships are too much
of a bother: NESFA did a superb job on Noreason.  Hence my
continuing characterization of a ripoff.

The film schedule went too far the other way.  I'm tired of seeing
Star Wars & friends, and Star Trek N, but having almost nothing to
offer in their place shows contempt for fen.  Off the top of my
head, a "second-rank" film schedule: Bladerunner and/or Alien, Doc
Savage, Fantastic Planet, Forbidden Planet, Buckaroo Banzai, etc.
Not the pick of the litter but interesting rather than the stuff
that was shown.

If NESFA wants more volunteers, relax the 8 hour rule to 4 hours:
health problems prevent me, at least, from being able to commit
myself to *anything* for 8 hours.

Lastly, the "22" & the 3000+ fen that showed up means that NESFA has
had a reputation for putting on good cons.  If they don't want
people to come, don't publicize it or don't run a con.  If the group
doesn't want the responsiblity that comes with the reputation, drop
Boskone.  I don't want to hear the nth building a world panel & the
various other repeats. I'd rather see the art show and interesting
movies & have more meet-the-authors- **individually** sessions.

dan davison

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Mar 85 1229-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #93
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:

           Books - Clarke & Herbert (5 msgs) & Nebulas &
                   Story Help & Another Request,
           Films - A Boy and His Dog & Brainstorm &
                   The Forbin Project & Five Million Years to Earth,
           Television - The Prisoner,
           Miscellaneous - Boskone (2 msgs) & The Imp of the Perverse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85  9:39:27 EST
From: Joel B. Levin <levin@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Sun Jammer query
To: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@mit-multics.arpa

One of many such answers I'm sure you will receive ...

"Sun Jammer" by Arthur C. Clarke may be found in his recent
collection THE SENTINEL.

        Pax / JBL

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 02:35:54 pst
From: Anders Herbj|rnsen
From: <herbjornsen%vax.runit.unit.uninett%ubc.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Heretics of Dune

>"Heretics of Dune" should be out in paperback shortly.  There is a
>sixth book in the works, I forget the title.

>    The fifth DUNE book is called "HERETICS OF DUNE" and has been
>out since early 1984 in hardcover.  I don't think it is in trade or
>regular paperback just yet.

The paperback version of Heretics of Dune has been in sale in Norway
for more than 3 months now. I believe it's an american edition.

..anders....

------------------------------

From: anton@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Anton)
Subject: Re: DUNE books
Date: 8 Mar 85 05:50:00 GMT

I just wanted to let it be known that "Heritics of Dune" is out in
paperback.  I spotted them on March 5.  I can't say anything about
the book yet, but I'm sure it will probably be the worst of the
five.  (going downhill all the time) I would be glad if there were
no more Dune books coming since I hate hearing reviews of a new
hardback since none of my friends are fool enough to buy the thing.

                                        Jeff Anton
                                        U.C.Berkeley
                                        ucbvax!anton
                                        anton@berkeley.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ism70!dianeh@topaz
Subject: Re: DUNE books
Date: 8 Mar 85 06:21:15 GMT

>>   Does anyone have some information on any books after the fourth
>> DUNE book entitled "God Emperor of Dune".  I just read through
>> all four books and am breaking out in hives waiting to see how
>> the next one will be.

The fifth book is entitled "Heretics of Dune". I just saw an ad that
it's now available in paperback.  I haven't read it, though...I'm
waiting for the SF Book Club to offer it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Mar 85 13:46:29-GMT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Chapter House Dune

This book is actually on sale in the UK and has been for at least
the last two weeks. I've been contemplating whether to buy it but at
9 pounds I think I'd be more likely to wait for the paperback
considering the previous books.  I don't know why its on sale here
and not in the states yet. Things don't normally happen that way.

                Alan Greig (Alan%dct@UCL-CS.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: DUNE books
Date: 8 Mar 85 19:39:09 GMT

> I just wanted to let it be known that "Heritics of Dune" is out in
> paperback.  I spotted them on March 5.  I can't say anything about
> the book yet, but I'm sure it will probably be the worst of the
> five.  (going downhill all the time) I would be glad if there were
> no more Dune books comeing since I hate hereing reviews of a new
> hardback since none of my friends are fool enough to buy the
> thing.
>                                       Jeff Anton
>                                       U.C.Berkeley
>                                       ucbvax!anton
>                                       anton@berkeley.ARPA

OK I confess.  I read Dune *many* years ago and liked it very much.
I have read none of the sequels until recently.  I started the
second book and thought it stunk.  However, I have read "Heretics of
Dune".  It wasn't bad at all.  In fact, I liked it.  Not great
literature, and a little confusing, but a nice story. (I didn't buy
the hardback.  I borrowed it.)

                         Ethan Vishniac
                         {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 14:29 IST
From: Henry Nussbacher  <VSHANK%weizmann.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Nebula nominations

What a blow to Analog!  Not a single nomination.  Wow!

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 1985 1907-CST
From: Dan <NICHOLS%ti-csl.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Story Help

A number of years ago I ran across a story (??) that was written as
a supposed tranlsation of the first (sf?) story written by a
Dolphin. I can remember nothing else about it. I don't know if it
was in a book, magazine, etc..  Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Please mail responses to me directly. Thanks.
                         Dan Nichols

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 Mar 1985 06:44:43-PST
From: faiman%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Neil Faiman ~ ZKO2-3/N30 ~
From: 381-2017)
Subject: Yet another question....

> Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of children's
> books about three siblings, two male and one female, of whom the
> older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, Theodore, is known as
> "The Toad".  The kids have a dowager mentor, Mrs.
> Dextrose-Chesapeake,

The book with the mail-order voodoo kit is _Mrs._Coverlet's_Magicians_
(I have no idea who the author was).  I loved it, about 20 years
ago, but never found the earlier book (the one about the cat).

        -Neil Faiman

ARPA    FAIMAN%ELUDOM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
Usenet  {decvax|allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-eludom!faiman

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: SF movies
Date: 8 Mar 85 20:38:58 GMT

jay@smu.UUCP writes:
>>Great movie.  I saw it a long time ago in Dallas actually replayed
>>in a theater.  It feels like a made-for-tv movie, but it's still
>>good.  The thing I loved most of course was the ending.
>>Absolutely Perfect Scene!!
>>
>>*** SPOILER ***
>>
>>The hero is escaping and this girl wants to come along.  You
>>wonder if you should have a happy-all's-well ending.  Then the boy
>>and his dog leave their camp after a nice dinner.  Guess who was
>>the dinner?  Would someone please expand this ending to it's full
>>glory?
>
> Would someone please expand this *article* to its full NAME so
> that I can decipher which great SF Movie is being discussed here?

The name of the movie was A BOY AND HIS DOG which was made from a
Harlan Ellision novella of the same name which won a Nebula award or
Hugo I think.

------------------------------

From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: BRAINSTORM (spoiler)
Date: 9 Mar 85 11:37:35 GMT

Of course, the real problem with Brainstorm was that the woman's
senses continued to provide input to the recorder after they
biologically ceased to transmit signals.  The angels were also a bit
silly.  Nonetheless, overall, a science fiction film that tries to
describe the human implication of a new class of technologies, and
pretty well done.

Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking
ARPA:   Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K    uucp:   seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:     74176,1360      audio:  shout "Hey, Tim!"

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 85 16:04:39 EST
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: Forbin Project: turning it off

Now that you make me think of it, wasn't Collusus, the Forbin
Project the first movie to teach us that we shouldn't make machines
we can't turn off?  You wouldn't make such a machine because you saw
the Forbin Project.  (I'm not claiming the idea was completely
original.  Frankenstein seems like an obvious predecesor.  But it
seems the one that brought the point home to computers.)

------------------------------

From: siemens!steve@topaz
Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s
Date: 8 Mar 85 14:59:00 GMT

I recently made a rather unintelligible flaming response to Mark
Leeper's note about his favorite sf film "Five Million Years to
Earth".  This note is an attempt to clarify and defend that flame.

I saw "Five Million Years to Earth" quite some time ago, and I don't
remember it too well.  I remember mostly the hoaky and/or silly
special effects like the giant devil-insect ghost at the end and the
melting aliens and a few others.  I also remember thinking the movie
was pretty dumb.  So I had to rely mainly on Mark Leeper's spoiler
to jog my memory.

Mark's spoiler:
"The army, with much trouble, is able to bore a hole into the inner
chamber found in the craft, and inside they find insect-like
inhabitants.  Quartermass theorizes that they are from Mars and
that they had altered the apes whose fossils were found into
evolving toward intelligent humans."

Mark's comment to me:
"Given the evidence I cannot think of any time in the film when
Quartermass or Roney jump to a wild conclusion when there is another
that is simpler AND more convincing."

So anytime an extraterrestrial craft that is 5 million years old is
found, the simplest, most convincing explanation is that the aliens
are from Mars and they altered apes into evolving toward intelligent
humans.  A much more complex and unconvincing explanation is that we
don't know where they came from and their reason for being on Earth
probably had nothing to do with the apes.

GGGGIIIIIIVVVVVVVEEEEE MMMMEEEE AAAA BBBRRRREEEEEAAAAKKKK!!!!!!

My swiss cheese memory and Mark's spoiler offer no evidence for
Quartermass to believe the aliens were from Mars, and no evidence
that they had anything to do with the apes except being on Earth at
the same time.  Perhaps there was something in the movie or in the
play to justify these conclusions, but I don't remember and Mark
didn't mention it.  Afterwards, evidence appears to support these
wild conclusions, and this is the heart of what I was sputtering and
flaming about: crappy "sf" movies often have a scientist make a wild
conclusion and later provide evidence to support it.  (I
ineloquently phrased this as "...and this explanation is taken for
fact for the rest of the movie.").

There is another example.  Mark's spoiler:
"Quartermass ... hears the driller babbling about seeing scenes from
another world.  His description seems to be of a race purge of
mutants.  Quartermass theorizes that the telekinetic powers and the
hatred of anyone different were invested in us by the aliens and
were always with us more or less dormant.  The craft has the power
to reawaken them in us."

There is no evidence that the telekinetic powers were always with us
more or less dormant.  There is no evidence that hatred of anyone
different was invested in us by the aliens; it may be a trait that
we and the aliens share, to different degrees.  In fact, I kind of
remember even the part about the "description seems to be of a race
purge of mutants" to have been something like (I admit to
exaggeration):

Driller: Thousands of weird aliens being driven out!  They're being
         killed!  All sorts of havoc and destruction!
Quartermass: Was it some sort of racial purge of mutants?  Tell me!
Driller: Babble babble yes!

I think you probably get the idea of what I am flaming at.
Scientist makes wild, unfounded conclusion which is later supported
by evidence not available at the time the conclusion is made.
Please forgive me if I am wrong about this movie, and I simply don't
remember supporting evidence.  I'm pretty sure I would remember,
though.

By the way, this business about mutants brings up another pet peeve
of mine, that science fiction authors and readers generally know
very little about biology and seldom understand mutation or
evolution.  Systematically killing off all abnormal individuals
would be an anti-survival trait if you accept the theory of
evolution.  (Small quibble in this movie; someday I'll flame on
about this one when a better (worse) example comes up.)

In conclusion, I maintain that unless I remember totally wrong, the
"science" put forth in this film is worse than useless.  However, if
I could get that out of my mind, I think I might agree with Mark
that the film presents a number of very interesting ideas worth
thinking about.

ihnp4!princeton!siemens!steve

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 85 16:12:10 EST
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: re: Who is number six?

Of course the prisoner wasn't John Drake.  He was number Six.
Remember?  He didn't *have* a name.  Even if the character was
supposed to be the Secret Agent, even the Secret Agent didn't have a
name, right?  John Drake was just a cover.  I think this explains
the discrepency fairly well.  McGohan (how embarassing not to know
how to spell his name!) was answering the question asked: "Was the
prisoner John Drake?"  The other dude was answering the question
intended: "Was the prisoner the same person as the Secret Agent?"
At least, that's my guess.

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Boskone 22
Date: 3 Mar 85 19:00:59 GMT

Barry and I have been attending BOSKONE (coming out from Los Angeles
to do so) for over ten years.  As old fans, we don't bother
attending programs, preferring to save our waking hours for the core
period of 5PM - 3AM.  We're far too busy meeting our East Coast
friends (for a precious 3-5 days a year) to want to sit in chairs
and listen to panels or movies.

AS a hotel site, we preferred the old Sheraton, with its large rooms
and dependable elevators and nearby mall.  The new Marriot isn't bad
either, particularly if you dress mundanely enough not to run into
any dress code problems.  (From what we can tell, restaurants ended
up mainly discriminating against young fans and costume ball
participants.)  We very much liked access to the Copley Place and
Westin Hotels, and I understand that the structure may be extended
up to the Sheraton/Prudential Center Complex someday which would be
even nicer.

Once upon a time (perhaps still), NESFA used to do advance work in
the hotel-- tipping maids/waiters/etc. to make up for the fact that
fans are notoriously undertippers.  Perhaps before next year's
Boskone, NESFA might do a little spadework as to which local
restaurants are willing to serve strangely clad people--and have it
so announced in the convention daily, thereby getting significantly
more business.  And which restaurants aren't willing to do so-- so
even the mundanely clad could boycott them.

The hotel elevators were horrible.  At one point we found ourselves
stalled for 30 minutes awaiting one in ANY direction.  But then most
hotel elevators break down/get jammed by sf conventions.

We enjoyed Boskone tremendously in spite of it all.

--Lee & Barry Gold

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 1985 10:15:44-EST
From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
Subject: Marriott Security at Boskone

I had a fairly mellow interaction with a female security guard.  A
new acquaintance and I were sharing a skinny little cigarette in the
stairway, and she came by and said, "I didn't see that, but you'd
better go to a room."

------------------------------

From: reed!todd@topaz (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Help with Button
Date: 7 Mar 85 19:45:39 GMT

From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
>I have a button that reads
>
>     I am the Imp of the Perverse
>       (knowing this won't help you either)
>
>That I bought and stuck on our MILNET IMP.  Actually, I had to by
>another one because I think our IMP hardware guy took the first
>one.  Question is what does it mean.  Does this relate to some
>book?  Can

   As I posted before, The Imp of the Perverse is the title of an
essay by Poe.  It concerns the tendency or voice within which makes
you do things which you know are evil/self-destructive/perverse.
Knowing what you are about to do doesn't help at all (I know I'll go
splat, but I've just got to step off that cliff).

                                                 Todd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Mar 85 1325-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #94
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asprin & Chalker & Tepper,
                 Films - Nuclear War Films & Filmex Marathon &
                         Brainstorm & Star trek (2 msgs),
                 Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Boskone & SF Book Club (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 10 Mar 85 20:42:04-CST
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: MythDrawn Covers

  Some of the people may dislike Phil Foglio's drawings but at least
they're accurate.  On the cover of the Myth books Ahz is shown as
being a lot taller than Skeeve.  However, in the book it mentions
that Skeeve is taller than Ahz.  It's not only that way on the first
book but also on the second.  Someone at my local book store told me
that the third book (Myth Directions?)  has been out of print for a
few months.  Could they be republishing it with Foglio's
illustrations?  (Personally I hope so.)

                --Doug

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 19:12 EST
From: Richard <QU229C@GWUVM>
Subject: RE: Good Chalker

In response to the question about Jack Chalker:
The_Dancing_Gods are good, Soul_Rider is so,so. Better than either
is his Four Lords_of_the_Diamond series along with Well_World. It is
Chalker at his best.

       ******* SPOILER WARNING*********

The only likable person after a while in Soul_Rider was Matson who
admitted he didn't give a damn about anybody but family and fellow
stringer. After a while I rooted for the Seven who Wait just to see
what would happen.

QU229C@GWUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Sheri Tepper
Date: 10 Mar 85 00:11:16 GMT

I just read _THE SONG OF MAVIN MANYSHAPED_ by Sheri Tepper, a
prequel to the TRUE GAME series.  I found the book better than the
TRUE GAME books.  I think Tepper has learned to write a bit better
and to construct a plot much better.  I reccommend the book.

Going back and reading the TRUE GAME series again, I came up with a
couple of questions.  "Strange are the Talents of Wizards..."  Fine,
but what are they?  Anyone have any guesses?  None of the wizards in
the story ever use any Talents (at least openly) and Winslow never
even realized he was part Wizard.  That at least argues that Wizards
have no Talent other than cunning.

Also, Sorah's prediction at the end of _WIZARD'S ELEVEN_.  I haven't
got it with me at the moment, but any guesses as to the plot it
might lead to?  Sounds vaguely like an exorcism, what with book,
candle and bell.
                                        -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

From: saber!msc@topaz (Mark Callow)
Subject: Re: Nuclear War films - THREADS
Date: 8 Mar 85 20:22:19 GMT

> For those who though the "Day After" and "Testament" were bad, you
> should see the English-produced "THREADS".
>
> The reviewers say that THREADS makes the Day After look like a
> romp through the daisies, and while it's not quite that bad, they
> are close.

If you really want to be frightened see Peter Watkin's "The War
Game".  This was commissioned by the BBC but when they saw the
finished product they deemed it too scary to show on TV.  It has
never been shown on TV, in Britain at least, but was released as a
movie.  Last August, there was mention that the BBC might finally
show it, as part of an examination of nuclear war, along with
Threads and some documentaries and discussion programs.

17 years after seeing it I still have vivid memories of the scenes
of the fire storms and resulting hurricane force winds.  With this
memory, the depiction of fire storms in Threads did not seem
believable.  Threads did not depict the gale force winds that would
result from the firestorm.  I also have vivid memories of policeman
shooting those too maimed to live since there were almost no medical
facilities to take care of them.  Just typing these few words is
bringing back the feeling of horror I experienced with the
realisation of how bad things were anticipated to be for the police
to have instructions to do that.

The War Game was a documentary style film based on the then current
scientific understanding and civil defense planning in Britain.

It was around this time in my life that I decided I would never work
on weapons and have as little as possible to do with any other
military work.

From the TARDIS of Mark Callow
msc@saber.UUCP,  saber!msc@decwrl.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!saber!msc, ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!saber!msc

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: Filmex Fantasy Marathon
Date: 9 Mar 85 22:31:37 GMT

I've posted a complete list of the films to be shown in Filmex's 50
hour film marathon (March 29-31) to these newsgroups in the LA area.
Those outside the area who are interested can send me mail to get
the list.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM)
Date: 9 Mar 85 23:57:22 GMT

leeper@ahutb.UUCP (m.leeper) writes:
>   ...   The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting
>implications they could follow. ...

Oh, come on now.  The question of what happens when a man dies can
hardly be considered uninteresting.  Some would argue that this
question is what has driven man to civilization and the pursuit of
knowledge.  I hardly think this is "one of the least interesting"
topics BRAINSTORM could have pursued, particularly given the need to
write a story, and not just a collection of interesting
extrapolations.
                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry)
Subject: re: STAR TREK II
Date: 8 Mar 85 16:31:39 GMT

Sorry for being impatient about getting hold of STII with the extra
footage.

The myth I was referring to was a previous posting to the net
stating that the extra footage was on the commercial release
videotape.  Having said tape, I can tell you the footage is not
there.  I just thought that if people were under the impression that
the extra footage was indeed on a tape somewhere, that they would
know where I could get it.

Holding my breath,
Mikki

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 08:14 PST
From: Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: ST IV

News from Harve Bennett via Interstat (a Star Trek letterzine): "1)
Shatner is set. 2) Nimoy is set. 3) The Great Bird returns. 4) We
are beginning the final work on the story. 5) We plan to use all the
Star Trek regulars. 6) I'll be there, too."

--Lisa Wahl
ST Welcommittee

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 23:26:48 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: The cancellation of Dr. Who

If you are concerned about the cancellation of Dr. Who, then READ
THIS MESSAGE!

While vacationing in Florida last week, I had the pleasure of
attending a Whovian Festival (they called it something else) in
Tampa.  It was put on by the Dr. Who Fan Club of America, and
featured Peter Davidson and John Nathan-Turner (the current producer
for those of you who are not in the know).

About one minute after I sat down (and I was even a half-hour late),
a green sheet of paper was shoved into my hand.  Across the top it
said "SAVE DOCTOR WHO!"  It went on to say: "The BBC thinks it's
going to cancel Doctor Who!  We know better -- whether the BBC likes
it or not!!  Send letters .. one each to:" and gave the following
three addresses:

Michael Grade, Controller
BBC TV
Woodlands
80 Wood Lane
London W12 OTT

Alastair Milne, Director General
BBC TV
White City
London W12

and... (believe it or not)

Margaret Thatcher
10 Downing St.
London

Also during the conference, there was a Q&A session with Davidson
and Nathan-Turner.  The second question asked was about the rumored
cancellation.  John confirmed that, yes, the BBC has decided to halt
production on Dr. Who for this season.  BUT -- there is hope.  He
also said that he and others would continue to work on the next
season (script writing and such) even though it won't get aired
until 1986 at the earliest.  They have NOT completely cancelled the
show, they have only taken it off the air for one season.  John
Nathan-Turner implied that they had not yet made a decision on
whether or not Dr. Who would be back in 1986.

If you want it to continue, then write letters now!

I also got the chance to see two complete stories with the current
Doctor -- Colin Baker.  The second one (and the one that closed the
festival) guest starred Patrick Troughton.  It was called
(naturally) "The Two Doctors".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Dr. Who outlasted even Gunsmoke?

                                William LeFebvre
                                Department of Computer Science
                                Rice University
                                <phil@Rice.arpa>

"Never trust a man with dirty fingernails."
                --The fourth Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 19:12 EST
From: Richard <QU229C@GWUVM>
Subject: Dr. Who companions.

I'm curious about the Doctor's companions who people regard as their
favorite, and least favorite and why. Here are my five favorites and
the two least.

Favorite in order:
Romana II: The closest thing to a female Doctor. She gave well as
good as she got.

Romana I: Almost as good, she showed us the Doctor wasn't all
knowing.

Adric: Yes Adric, The baker one and the one in Earthshock, easily
the best show of Davidson's first two years.

Nyssa: Bright to begin with and matured during Fenure.

The Brigadier: When he was in a show with Baker or Davidson it made
it special.

***THE WORST****

Tegan: As a noted Alzarian commented: Mindless, impatient, and
bossy.

Turlough: A coward that should have been thrown to the Black
Gardian.

Note: According to Celebration, K9 is not a companion.

QU292C@GWUVM

------------------------------

From: ddb%mrvax.DEC@topaz (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: Boskone
Date: 7 Mar 85 15:53:53 GMT

One solution to a high at-the-door price is to pre-register... cons
really like you to pre-register so that they have a good idea of
what sort of problem (i.e. crowd control) they have facing them.

Many cons have dropped one-day registrations.  Given that cons are
run by volunteer labor, usually by non-profit groups (those that
don't have club-houses don't have such big expenses to cover...),
and that one-day registrations are considerable trouble (all
badge-checkers have to recognize multiple classes of badges, not to
mention the record keeping), it seems perfectly reasonable to me to
drop them.  What bothers me about the story is the statement that
they claimed to have them, but they cost the same as a full
registration; that seems like a deliberate insult to those wanting
them.

Relations with the hotel were an interesting tangle.  On the one
hand, for the first time I can remember Boskone managed to get the
hotel to extend checkout time for con members.  It's about time,
this is one of the things that makes the biggest difference to me at
a con.  I'm often not up by the usual checkout times....  On the
other hand, hotel security was rude and surly, the bellhops were
rude and surly, and the restaurant managers were rude and surly.  On
balance, I'd rate it "mediocre", composed of equal parts "good" and
"bad".  It might have been better to have a lower standard
deviation....

Film program -- personally I approve of their reputed policy of
de-emphasizing the film program.  I do not attend films at
SF-conventions; I view them as social functions.  If there's nothing
better to do than sit in the dark watching flashing lights on a
screen, I rank it as a complete failure.  Many people that I like,
and like to see at conventions, like to watch films, at conventions
and elsewhere.  However, MOST of the class of people I DON'T like to
see at conventions seem to find the films the main attraction.  (I
doubt most of them can read...).  On balance, therefore, while
regretting the loss to people who like films AND books, I find
conventions better if they reduce the film program to the more
esoteric and unusual items.

{If you consider the above a flame, you have a socialization
problem.  THIS is a flame; the difference should be obvious.}

                -- David Dyer-Bennet
                -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb

------------------------------

From: panda!mjn@topaz (Mark J. Norton)
Subject: sf book club
Date: 6 Mar 85 14:38:20 GMT

> I'm in a third category (long-time member, sad that prices are
> going up but intending to remain a member) and was wondering if
> *everyone* else is in the other two.  If so, I can extrapolate
> that I, too, will someday be driven out; I'd hate that, since the
> postage on the reply forms is well worth the bargain I pick up
> (admittedly mostly on older titles) a few times a year.  I enjoy
> even a mediocre-quality hardback much more than the smaller,
> can't-prop-up paperback.  Am I the only "chump" in my category?
>       Dave Suess              zeus@aerospace.ARPA

I am another long-time subscriber to the sfbc.  In the twelve or so
years I've been buying books from them, I've been occasionally stuck
with books I didn't want.  I've seen the prices slowly creep
upwards.  I've had arguments over whether I paid a bill or not, etc.

On the other hand, I have many collections (such as Zelazny's Amber
Chronicles) which have appeared no where else.  Many times I've seen
a sfbc edition of a new book come out before trade hardcover (Pohl's
Heechee Rendezvous).  I like the fact that my bookclub editions seem
to stand re-reading better than paperbacks.  I like the choices and
new selections I see every month.  I buy about 12-16 books a year
from them.

Starting with sfbc editions, I've become intrested in collecting
hardcover sf books.  I have many old sfbc selections.  I've also
branched out into first editions (trade) and specialty publishers
(such as Gregg editions).

I general, I am pleased with the book club and will continue to be a
member.  I've had my problems, but most of them were my fault or
were worked out with them.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Mar 1985 07:12:01-PST
From: herbison%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (B.J.)
Subject: SFBC - not returning the Member Reply Form

After reading about the people who asked SFBC to not force them to
return the Reply Form every month, I asked the same thing with the
last letter I sent them.  Their reply was:

        Thank you for contacting us.  We regret we cannot change
        your account as requested.  The Member Reply Form must be
        returned with your instructions to refuse shipment of the
        featured selections.

        Our method of operation has worked well over the clubs 60
        years of dependable service.  In order to continue to
        provide this fine service, and to keep our prices low, we
        must adhere to the agreement under which you enrolled.

They then went on to say that you are normally given plenty of time
to review the offerings before the deadline, that they pay for
return postage of unwanted books, to contact them if I have a
problem meeting the deadlines, and that I am a "valued member".

                                                B.J.
ARPA:  Herbison%Ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:  {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-ultra!herbison

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Mar 85 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #95
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:

                         Books - Valentina,
                         Films - Five Million Years To Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 12:00 IST
From: Tamir Weiner  <ZSTAMIR%WEIZMANN.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: submission to sf-list

        V A L E N T I N A  ===>  (somewhat new) book review

A few months ago I spotted an interesting entry on the local BBS
here concerning some stories originally appearing in ANALOG Science
Fiction and Science Fact under these titles:

         Valentina - May 1984
         The Crystal Ball - August 1984
         The Light in the Looking Glass - September 1984

The BBS description of the stories intrigued me so I had my wife
look for them on a recent visit to the States.  To my surprise and
pleasure they now exist together in a single paperback book:

       "Valentina: Soul In Sapphire"
         by  Joseph H. Delaney  and  Marc Stiegler
         Printed by Baen Books (distributor Simon &
         Shuster) first printing October 1984.

Almost as soon as it arrived I picked it up and polished it off in
just two sittings.  I usually don't inhale books that quickly but
this one caught my interest. It read as fast as any great SF I've
read by Heinlein or Asimov.  The Net has gotten me fascinated by the
subject of telecommunications and computer networks, and I've
learned quite a bit since my recent exposure to the Net.  Only wish
work permitted me more time to "hack" around, but I'm glad for the
time I do have.  The world has in fact become that tiny electronic
village which the visionaries of only 20 years ago wrote!

          ** m i n i  -  r e v i e w      (non-spoiler) **

So what is Valentina about?  As you can surmise, about computers,
networks, and related topics.  But it's much more than that.  The
central plot line revolves around the self-aware program which one
Celeste Hacket, hacker extraordinare has created, and which she
names "Valentina".  It is about Valentina's personality development
more than her birth, and about her fight for survival in a not so
friendly world.  But this book is more than just a computer update
of the Frankenstein story, and more than just a hackers wet-dream.
This is a story of personality, and people.  Of artificial
intelligence and the nature of sentience.  What makes a person a
person? And when is a program really intelligent?  Does a sentient
program have any rights as do sentient humans? Or is it just so much
code to be purged when it gets in someone's way.  What the author's
have done is use a background of computers and networks to explore
some issues and raise some questions in a novel that is very
entertaining, and provoking without being philosophical, or pushing
an ideology.  I'll say from the outset that it has some technical
flaws and noticeable omissions: the background of a world-wide
network is glossed over and could have been developed more.  From
the AI standpoint the author's stretch one's "willing suspension of
disbelief" which all SF novels require, perhaps too much when
Valentina leaps from self-awareness to real human understanding,
expression, communication in just a few pages.  But I think one can
forgive this technological blasphemy and poetic license of the
authors because the point here is not the how's and why's of
Artificial Intelligence, but rather what comes after.... the
definition of sentience, of self-awareness, of rights to existence,
and the relationship between aware computer programs (rather than
aware "hardware" an interesting distinction) and their human
creators, and competitors perhaps in a world which can be hostile to
well meaning programmers and their creations.  So what if the book
has flaws! Ever read a book which didn't?  It is fast paced, has
memorable characters -- even if they sometimes are a bit
stereotypical.  In a nutshell, this book deals with a variety of
ideas in a story which is delightful, and entertaining.  If you like
networking, and computer programming, it's a good read.

 *** Detailed discussion of "Valentina"   MILD SPOILER  ***

In response to what started as some criticisms of Valentina I've
added these comments which look more in depth at some of the
questions raised by the story....

Valentina was called non-innovative, perhaps, but that is no great
fault.  Witness the current discussion of STAR WARS, or BATTLE
BEYOND THE STARS.  Both have been called great ripoffs.  If stories
are less than original, then it is a question of how they are
written, not is it the first on the block to deal with a topic.  The
treatment of AI in Valentina is not original, but I believe the
point of the story is not technological innovation, but exploring
the personality aspects of AI and issues may be raised by self-aware
programs that migrate over world networks.

Valentina's birth and development are a bit spotty.  In the space of
just a few pages she goes from the beginnings of self-awareness to
human expression, and then later to understanding and communication.
She uses complex terms like love, hate, and worry freely and in the
right context.  This is a tough nut.  Current discussions in AI
center around how far indeed we are from this point of real
understanding and communication with programs.  But I think the
authors here wanted to start out with a very "logical" computer-like
being, and then they ask us to make a "leap of faith" in accepting
at some point Valentina's use of human language to express herself.
It was abrupt as leaps of faith go, but essential to the pace of the
book.  I don't see this a flaw, more like poetic license to carry
the points to be developed later, instead of being bogged down in
issues of how an AI program can really get to be self-aware, and
deal with human communication and understanding.  The Worldnet of
the book is not completely thought out.  This is a comment which I
heard, and agree.  Worldnet was a bit scant, and you're left hungry
for more information on how and why worldnet developed, functions,
etc.  Here again I feel the authors choose to gloss this part of the
story for they were more interested in pursuing the concepts of
intelligence, human nature, and sentient beings, and the
interactions between humans, and another sentient intelligence,
rather than forecasting where networks are in detail or where
networking is going.

An interesting point of Valentina is that she is a program only, and
not a particular machine.  In fact the idea is freely explored that
programs will become migratory over networks, and different
installations, instead of being run on a particular machine.  This
already is in the works today, and is a fascinating aspect of
networking in and of itself.  The old questions posed by stories
(movies) like COLOSUS, THE FORBIN PROJECT, which were just
FRANKENSTEIN stories clothed in transistors, may become laughable as
hardware is seen only as a vehicle for the execution of
sophisticated intelligent and self learning modules which can
converse and reason with people.

There is a flaw of realism in the book on the optimistic portrayal
of US, USSR relations in just a decade from now.  Seems like 1994
and a world wide network is just not going to happen.  Not at the
rate we are going politically, even though technically it's not far
fetched.

Surprise was raised by some at Celeste's attitude. As the author of
Valentina one might expect her to turn it in to MIT for the laurels
she'd get and lo and behold, of course the people there would be
enlightened enough to give Valentina it's own machine to run on.
But on closer examination, this is not such a reasonable
expectation.  I can more easily accept an evolving program
spontaneously becoming self-aware, than I can believe that any
University will graciously give resources and funding and
recognition to a radical, revolutionary idea.  Witness the research
being done into computer viruses.  I believe it was USC that
required research into this area to stop because it considered the
concept of migrating code too dangerous.... so they bury their
academic heads in the sand, rather than confront the issue.  They
would kill Valentina faster than any malicious hacker ever would.
In fact this is one of the books points.  The hackers which threaten
Valentina do so only out of the fault of not relating to her as a
sentient creature but as so much bothersome code of another hacker,
just purge the damn thing....  But after they are convinced of her
sentience, they in fact become her greatest allies!  This is a
remarkable statement, and one of the most hopeful points of the
books.

I thought Valentina was a fine work, and even one that has some
important questions to raise, outside of its fine entertainment
value, as an SF story.  I've been told that there are other stories
which successfully exploit this motif as well.  Anyone else out
there know of similar stories with new twists and insights on such
issues???

 "The meat is rotten, but the booze is holding out."
Computer Translation of "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"

 Marc
 ZSTAMIR@WEIZMANN.BITNET

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-spoiler)
Date: 10 Mar 85 14:25:04 GMT

>I saw "Five Million Years to Earth" quite some time ago, and I
>don't remember it too well.  I remember mostly the hoaky and/or
>silly special effects like the giant devil-insect ghost at the end
>and the melting aliens and a few others.

"In matters of taste... etc."  I didn't think the effects were too
bad.  I am not fond of the memory video-tape sequence.  I did like
the energy column at the end, which you don't like."  In any case, I
like the film for its ideas, not its effects.

>Mark's spoiler: "The army, with much trouble, is able to bore a
>hole into the inner chamber found in the craft, and inside they
>find insect-like inhabitants.  Quartermass

I did not call him "Quartermass."  The name is "Quatermass" with one
"r".  Of course it is easy to look at something and not really see
what's there.

>theorizes that they are from Mars and that they had altered the
>apes whose fossils were found into evolving toward intelligent
>humans."
>
>Mark's comment to me: "Given the evidence I cannot think of any
>time in the film when Quartermass or Roney jump to a wild
>conclusion when there is another that is simpler AND more
>convincing."
>
>So anytime an extraterrestrial craft that is 5 million years old is
>found, the simplest, most convincing explanation is that the aliens
>are from Mars

The physical characteristics of the aliens implied a lower gravity
and a thinner atmosphere than Earth's.  Mars was a logical guess and
the only location within our solar system that matched the physical
characteristics of the aliens.  I think that is pretty good evidence
and is no more far-fetched than logical conclusions drawn in many
scientific investigations.

>and they altered apes into evolving toward intelligent humans.

This is really the result of more complex evidence.  The apes found
at the site fit into the recognized flow of evolution except that
their braincases were unaccountably much larger than than their
immediate predecessors on the evolutionary tree.  The connection of
the apes to the craft was explained in my previous mailing.  The
best protected of them were the ones inside the craft, hence they
were contemporaries.  The coincidence of the braincases and the
alien visitation at the same time leads one to believe the two were
connected.  As I remember one of the scientists is uneasy about this
connection.  In either the film or the play, probably both, Roney
refers to coincidence as a breeder of false theories.  It is a good
line.  There is further evidence, more abstract and later on, in
that the latent telekinetic capabilities of current humans seems to
be tied into the alien craft in some unclear manner.  There seems to
be more going on in the initial contact than just a passing noticing
of each other.

>A much more complex and unconvincing explanation is that we don't
>know where they came from and their reason for being on Earth
>probably had nothing to do with the apes.

Based on the above, yes.  "We don't know where they came from" is
not an explanation of anything.  It is an obvious step to try to
work out where they could have come from, and the best evidence
points to Mars.

>My swiss cheese memory and Mark's spoiler offer no evidence for
>Quartermass to believe the aliens were from Mars, and no evidence
>that they had anything to do with the apes except being on Earth at
>the same time.

I hope the above is helpful.

>Perhaps there was something in the movie or in the play to justify
>these conclusions, but I don't remember and Mark didn't mention it.
>Afterwards, evidence appears to support these wild conclusions,

At the time Mars is guessed they already have the braincase evidence
and the physical structure of the aliens.  They do not mention the
conclusion that the aliens altered the humans until after the
telekinetic evidence also shows up.  Nigel Kneale is a craftsman and
sweats the details.  If you went to Seacon you saw in what high
regard British fans hold him (for very good reason, in my opinion).

>and this is the heart of what I was sputtering and flaming about:
>crappy "sf" movies often have a scientist make a wild conclusion
>and later provide evidence to support it.  (I ineloquently phrased
>this as "...and this explanation is taken for fact

More taken as an operational theory.  An when Quatermass tells
anyone about it, he qualifies everything he says with "If I'm
right...".

>for the rest of the movie.").
>
>There is another example.  Mark's spoiler: "Quartermass ...  hears
>the driller babbling about seeing scenes from another world.  His
>description seems to be of a race purge of mutants.  Quartermass
>theorizes that the telekinetic powers and the hatred of anyone
>different were invested in us by the aliens and were always with us
>more or less dormant.  The craft has the power to reawaken them in
>us."
>
>There is no evidence that the telekinetic powers were always with
>us more or less dormant.

Except that there have been reported cases of it for many years.
Why do you think we already have a word for it?  This film takes the
claims of telekinetic power and treats them as scientific
observations.

>There is no evidence that hatred of anyone different was invested
>in us by the aliens; it may be a trait that we and the aliens
>share, to different degrees.

I probably agree with you here, since there could be an instinctive
basis for it, but since it shows up in both races, Quatermass
concludes that it is more than coincidence.

>In fact, I kind of remember even the part about
>the "description seems to be of a race purge of mutants" to
>have been something like (I admit to exaggeration):
>
>Driller: Thousands of weird aliens being driven out!
>They're being killed!
>         All sorts of havoc and destruction!  Quartermass:
>Was it some sort of racial purge of mutants?  Tell me!
>Driller: Babble babble yes!

No, I don't think he asked Sladden, the driller, to draw any
conclusions.  Sladden just describes what he sees.

>I think you probably get the idea of what I am flaming at.
>Scientist makes wild, unfounded conclusion which is later supported
>by evidence not available at the time the conclusion is made.

And I agree with the idea of your flame, but I think this was not a
film it really applied to.  I can think of no other science fiction
film in which I think this complex a conclusion is so well reasoned.

>In conclusion, I maintain that unless I remember totally
>wrong, the "science" put forth in this film is worse than
>useless.

I think where the film presents science, it is reasonable.  Where it
presents scientific method it is good.  But for the most part it
presents speculation and for that I consider the best science
fiction film I remember ever seeing.  They conclusions it draws are
a good distance from our understanding of how things are, but the
chain of evidence makes the film plausible.

                           Mark Leeper
                           ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Mar 85 1008-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #96
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:

          Books - Heinlein & Palmer (2 msgs) & Robinson &
                  Vinge & Solar Sailing (3 msgs) &
                  Racial Memory & Group Minds (3 msgs)
          Films - Brainstorm & Earth II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 11 Mar 85 23:08:18-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Review of "Job"

        Job: A Comedy of Justice
        Robert A Heinlein

*** Warning: spoiler and literary criticism ***

According to his title, RAH has selected two tough acts to follow.
James Branch Cabell's "Jurgen" is not - and does not aim to be - a
great book, but it is a true philosophical novel, and by a master
stylist.

Heinlein uses the picaresque style of his model, and in my view to
better effect.  A traditional SF reader will be irritated by the
throwaway descriptions of the many "parallel worlds" in the book;
but they serve their purpose, which is to develop the hero, and
there is at the end a reasonable justification for largely having
ignored them.  The trials of his Job are more real, and more
relevant, than the adventures of Jurgen.  They address the same
question - what is the ultimate source of value in human experience
- what do we live FOR?  Jurgen sought the clue in a fictitious past;
Heinlein's Alec seeks it in a parallel present.

The book does not have the mannerisms that I have disliked in other
works, such as Time Enough for Love or The Number of The Beast.  It
has very little preaching disguised as dinner-table conversation.
It moves.  Moreover, its protagonist is not a "competent man".  He
is, by many standards, a wimp.  However, he has an unshakable moral
integrity. I was reminded at times of Farnham's Freehold, which
showed a man of great competence, but no integrity: here is the
antithesis.

The novel contains Heaven and Hell, Gods and Devils, but it is not
religious.  On the contrary: it adheres throughout to the Stoic
position that moral value is created only by the free choice of free
agents.  There are abrupt transitions between parallel worlds,
described in traditional SF idiom.  And abrupt transitions between
heavens and hells, in traditional religious idiom.  The shock of the
latter led me to reflect on the complacency with which I had
accepted the former.  My conclusion was that RAH had rehabilitated
the character - the "volitional" protagonist - as the centre of
attention.

Yes, a good book.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: bothner@Shasta.ARPA
Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer
Date: 6 Mar 85 23:45:15 GMT

I read the 2nd novella "Seeking" last year (so I could vote
intelligently for the Hugos), and later the 1st novella. It's a long
time since I read anything else so painfully bad.  The main problem
is the sickeningly cute and precocious writing style. Palmer has a
tin ear for language, style and mood. If he's deliberately trying to
write that way because he's trying to imitate an 11-year-old genius,
that only compounds his crimes (by adding intent to the insult).

> I get the feeling Palmer analyzed his intended audience of Analog
> readers and concocted a story designed to cater to their tastes.

Algis Budry wrote a very entertaining analysis of a phenomenon he
called "fannish sf". This is sf which becomes very popular in the
fan community, not because of literary qualities, but because it
strikes some chord in the fannish psyche. The same novels which win
Hugos etc, might leave many people outside fandom totally cold. This
controversial article appeared in "The Magazine of Fantasy & Science
Fiction", and was reprinted in one of the latest anthologies of "The
Best from ...".

Budry's analysis was built around a (positive) review of the first
volume of Julian May's four-volume "Saga of the Pleistocene Exile",
but I think it is even more applicable to Palmer's novel.  The
obvious point of resonance is that fans (Btw, I'm one myself)
consider themselves "the people of the future", homo post hominem,
just like Palmer's young heroine. Remember that most of us are
intelligent, introverted, over-achievers who can easily project
ourselves into this kind of protagonist. I, too, might have enjoyed
the story, if only Palmer knew how to use the language.

Heinlein had many of the same themes in his novels, which sometimes
had similar weaknesses (e.g. Podkayne). But usually, his
straightforward writing style made his books enjoyable.

Another parallel is the 50's battle cry of "Fans are Slans",
inspired by van Vogt's then-popular novel "Slan".

        --Per Bothner
ARPA: bothner@su-score  UUCP: ...!{decwrl,ucbvax}!shasta!bothner

------------------------------

From: ra!gail@topaz (Gail B. Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer
Date: 8 Mar 85 21:45:33 GMT

The search for Peter Bell was the driving force behind "Seeking"
(the novella and the section of the novel Emergence).  What happened
to Peter Bell?  This is never resolved in the book.  Will there be a
sequel?  (I liked the book, but I'm getting awfully tired of
sequels...)

Gail Bayley Hanrahan
Calma Company, San Diego
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail

------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Mar 85 15:17:49-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: mindkiller

I found Mindkiller to be a very amusing book; I have liked
everything that Robinson has ever written, to my knowledge. There
are various small deficiencies to be found in this book, but all of
these are balanced by the climax in the last few pages. The whole
thing was obviously slow- motion choreographed by the author, and
the sequence of events is so unlikely as to be mandatory in any
universe that I would wish to live in.

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: ihu1j!gek@topaz (glenn kapetansky)
Subject: Snow Queen/World's End
Date: 11 Mar 85 18:53:42 GMT

I just read Joan Vinge's two books, and I just wanted to put in my
two petro-dollars' worth.

Snow Queen is kaleidoscopic, and I mean that literally as well as
colloquially. The plot lines twist and turn and settle into new
patterns, but they all connect subtly to the other lines until
they meet at the end. Well done, and enjoyable.

I wish I could say the same for World's End. A novel (:-) approach,
but poorly done in comparison to Heart of Darkness, which it
emulates (see the opening quotes). Maybe I wouldn't be so critical
if it didn't aspire so high...

glenn kapetansky
"Think of it as evolution in action"
...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek

------------------------------

To: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@mit-multics.arpa
Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing author
Date: 10 Mar 85 09:08:23 PST (Sun)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

"Sunjammer" was a short story written by Arthur C. Clarke in 1964
for "Boy's Life" magazine.  I'm not sure under what title it was
printed here.

It appeared as "Sunjammer" in "The Infinite Arena", ed. by Terry
Carr.  All stories in this anthology are about SF sporting events:
excellent throughout.  I would be amazed if this is not readily
available.

It also appeared with the name "The Wind from the Sun" in a
collection of Clarke's short stories titled "The Wind from the Sun".

Cordwainer Smith wrote one called "The Lady who Sailed THE SOUL"
which discusses the problems of lifestyle for light sailers, and is
my favorite romantic SF story.  It appears in

"Galaxy Magazine" 1963
"The Best of Cordwainer Smith" ed. by J. J. Pierce
"Galaxy: Thirty Years of Innovative Science Fiction" ed. by Frederik
  Pohl

I can't think of any other stories offhand that center on light
sailing, although I'm pretty sure there are at lease a few others.
The following Larry Niven stuff mentions it to some extent:

"The Mote in God's Eye" begins with a being showing up in our solar
system in a lightsail ship.

Several of the "Known Space" series stories mention a beast called a
spaceseed that lives in space and travels by natural lightsail.

"The Fourth Profession" discusses a race of traders who came to
Earth by lightsail.  An interesting possible side-effects of this
method of travel is brought up.

Hope this helps         Jim Hester

------------------------------

Subject: Sun Jammer
Date: 11 Mar 85 11:52:26 PST (Mon)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        This was an early Arthur C. Clarke story.  It was originally
published in ( of all things ) Boy's Life, the Boyscout magazine.
The story was later taken intact by Clarke, retitled and republished
as the title story in his short story collection 'The Wind From the
Sun'.  It's probably gotten published elsewhere too, by now.
        This is one of my favorites.  A race between solar-wind
powered space craft, yachts on a race twice around the Earth, and
then first one to pass Lunar orbit is the winner.  I'd almost prefer
that to riding the waves out to Catalina and back.  But not quite.

                                Dave Godwin
                                Memory and Etc.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 1985 1925 GMT
From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. <WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA>
Subject: Solar Sailing Info.

In response to the inquiry about solar sailing, you might want to
check out the short story "The Fourth Profession" by Larry Niven
(I'm not at home, so I may have the title wrong - corrections?)  Its
about aliens called the Monks who decelerate into the solar system
using a light-sail-equipped ship.
                  Bill W.

------------------------------

From: garfield!derek2@topaz (Derek S Keeping)
Subject: Re: Pointers please?
Date: 8 Mar 85 00:05:11 GMT

How about ORN by Piers Anthony.

This one dealt with a species of flightless birds that evolved a
racial memory as a survival mechanism.

                        Derek S. Keeping
                        {allegra,inhp4,utcsrgv}!garfield!derek2

------------------------------

From: zaphod!bobd@topaz (Bob Dalgleish)
Subject: Re: Group mind
Date: 8 Mar 85 20:02:08 GMT

> I vaguely recall a story in which a group mind is formed when a
> retarded farm hand meets up with a mongoloid child, a child with
> telekinetic abilities and a pair of telepathic (naked) twins.  I
> may have some of the details wrong, but surely someone remembers
> the details.  I think the story is considered a "classic" - I
> certainly consider it so.
>                                               -- Scott Turner

How classic was it? - Theodore Sturgeon almost made a career of this
concept.  You're right, it does sound familiar: I vaguely recall one
novel and some short stories from the man with this theme.  I have
no pointers, since I don't keep my SF collection in anything
remotely resembling Dewey Decimal notation, but start with his
collections.  _More_Than_Human_ is the first anthology I would look
at - it should have pointers to others.  Also, try the gigantic
anthology by Anthony Boucher (the name is on the tip of my tongue,
it's ... it's ..., oh, you know the one I mean, it comes in two
volumes and was offered by the Science Fiction Book Club as their
loss leader).

Bob Dalgleish           ...!alberta!sask!zaphod!bobd
                              ihnp4!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1985  02:38 EST
Subject: Group Minds

        Several people have mentioned @i(More than Human) by
Theodore Sturgeon as a story dealing with group minds.  Nobody has
brought up another Sturgeon story also dealing with group minds:
@i(The Cosmic Rape) (published in @i(Galaxy) under the more demure
title: ``To Marry Medusa'').  This novel deals with a creature
(``...call it the Medusa'') that has been travelling from planet to
planet, absorbing the inhabitants into its ``hive mind''.  At the
novel's beginning, it has arrived on Earth and is ready to continue
its unbroken record of conquest.  However, it faces special problems
on Earth, since all the previous species it has conquered have also
had group minds.  So naturally it sets out to unite all humanity
into a single group mind that it can conquer at once...

Bob (``Lousy bastits'') Ingria

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Group minds and LeGuin....
Date: 11 Mar 85 20:35:52 EST (Mon)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA

From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
>>From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA
>> Ursula LeGuin wrote a short story about a group mind called
>> "Vaster than Empires and More Slow".
>
>   As I recall, LeGuin wrote another story called "Nine Lives" that
>also explored the group mind concept to some degree. In this one, a
>group of nine human clone-siblings (all cloned from the same
>parent) are sent to work with a planetary exploration team made up
>of basically normal humans. The story depicts the relationship(s)
>between the clones as well as how the humans react to them. The
>group mind aspects of the story are not dealt with very explicitly,
>but the normal folks can't help noticing how connected and in tune
>the clones seem to be with each other. Some of them speculate as to
>whether the clones represent a true group mind; this possibility is
>brought to the fore by the reactions of the clones when some of
>their group (the clones) are killed.
>
>   I recommend the story, but I don't know where it can be found
>today; I know only that it originally appeared in "Playboy."

This is in the same collection as the other story... "The Winds 12
Quarters".

        -Nancy

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM)
Date: 12 Mar 85 02:34:40 GMT

> leeper@ahutb.UUCP (m.leeper) writes:
>>   ...   The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting
>>implications they could follow. ...
>
> Oh, come on now.  The question of what happens when a man dies can
> hardly be considered uninteresting.

No, but it is less interesting than any number of other ideas they
touched on but passed up.  What it would do to our understanding of
animal intelligence and psychology would have been more interesting.
What it would do to human relations, what it would do to defense
technology, what it would do to psychiatric treatment, to the
entertainment industry, all these were ideas picked up and then
abandoned.  By rights, this should have been BRAINSTORM I, first of
a long series to how the world would be completely transformed by
this one tool.  I do find the at-death experience of some interest,
but there is so much more that could be done with the premise given
time!
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 12 Mar 1985 00:46:32-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: EARTH II

> From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA  (Brett Slocum)
> In regards to Earth II, I thought that this was a movie starring
> Gary Lockwood (??) about an astronaut that crash lands on the
> duplicate of Earth that orbits the sun directly opposite Earth.
> ...  This may or may not be Earth II.  Please clarify.
>
> I remember the movie mentioned, about the space station that
> disarms a Chinese nuclear warhead. I don't know what it was
> called.

The latter movie *is* EARTH II, and *it* stars Gary Lockwood.

The former movie is one of two possibilities:

(1) JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN (1969), starring Roy Thinnes,
and produced by Century 21 Productions (Gerry & Sylvia Anderson).

(2) THE STRANGER (1973), a made-for-tv movie (pilot for a series
that was never made) starring Glenn Corbett, Lew Ayres, and Cameron
Mitchell.

Both films are set on a world on the opposite side of the sun (Gor?)
from the Earth, sharing the same orbit.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Mar 85 1010-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #97
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 13 Mar 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Asprin & Female Authors &
                    Book Reviews & Best First SF Book &
                    Best All Time SF Book & Mrs. Coverlet (2 msgs),
            Films - Nuclear War Films & Five Million Years To Earth &
                    Brainstorm,
            Television - Dr. Who & V & Overdrawn at the Memory Bank,
            Miscellaneous - Boskone

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@topaz (Henry Chai)
Subject: Yet another Xanth novel
Date: 12 Mar 85 02:53:58 GMT

Yes folks, Xanth #8 has hit the bookstores already.  This one is
called "The Crewel Lye" (the cruel lie) and features Jordan the
ghost as the central character.  I refuse to buy it; I stopped
buying after the 6th.  I'll just wait for the public libraries to
get it, but meanwhile if any of you die-hard Xanth fans out there
would like to tell me what you think of it, just mail me; I'll be
gald to hear from you.

BTW, does anyone find the Xanth novels sexist? I do.  The women
characters are (almost) always of the pretty, buxom, not-too-bright
type, who loved nothing more than to show off their legs or to look
for husbands.  (Princess Irene is a prime example) The comparison
between women and nymphs is also rather degrading to the female sex.
However, there is very little sexism in the other Piers Anthony
novels, so I wonder whether he did it tongue-in-cheek or not?

Henry Chai
Faculty of Library and Information Science
U of Toronto
{decvax, ihnp4, allegra}!utcsri!utflis!chai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 17:54 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: MythDrawn Comics

>  Some of the people may dislike Phil Foglio's drawings but at
>least they're accurate.  On the cover of the Myth books Ahz is
>shown as being a lot taller than Skeeve.  However, in the book it
>mentions that Skeeve is taller than Ahz.  It's not only that way on
>the first book but also on the second.

Surprise!  Its also that way in the comic book, draw by...  Phil
Foglio.  Also, the pose of the demon hunter, Quigly or whatever it
is, changes while he is supposedly a statue.  First, he's chasing
the demons when he's hit with the spell, then he's riding his
unicorn, and then he's laying with his hands at his sides when the
unicorn is dragging him.  (In the book (the first one, of course), I
think there is actually a point made that Quigly is in a
unicorn-riding position while being dragged....)  (Incidentally, the
comics are not following the books exactly in all cases. There are
minor changes, usually for the better, generally adding additional
visual humor, although sometimes at the expense of information.

Personally, I find that Foglio captures the /spirit/ of
MythAdventures as well as anyone, and certainly better than the guy
who is illustrating the ACE paperback covers.  (The same guy also
did the cover of the SFBC omnibus, which was in the same overly
realistic style, but better done in my opinion.)

> Someone at my local book store told me that the third book (Myth
>Directions?)  has been out of print for a few months.  Could they
>be republishing it with Foglio's illustrations?  (Personally I hope
>so.)

Wasn't that one originally illustrated by Foglio?

Mark

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF
Subject: authors...
Date: 7 Mar 85 20:31:51 GMT

>> Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan
>> Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser
>> known but still good authors.
>
> You forgot Joanna Russ!!!! And Ellen Kuttner, Marion Zimmer
> Bradley, Diane Duane, R.A. MacAvoy, Sylvia Engdahl, Madeleine
> L'Engle, Katherine Kurtz, Jane Yolen, Joan Aiken.....Sorry, I'm
> getting carried away.
>                               -Ellen

What caught my eye was the mention of Jane Yolan.  Wonderful writer!
Have you read Cards of Grief?!?!  Also, looking more closely at your
list, Hardy agreement with, at least, Diane Duane (her first novel,
at any rate) and MacAvoy.

Also, allow me to recommend Pamela Dean (The Secret Country, Ace,
May 1985).
                              -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Mon 11 Mar 85 19:36:21-PST
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Book reviews: Bradley, Brunner, Van Vogt

Here are some reviews of books I have read recently that I haven't
seen discussed here on sf-lovers yet...  They are all bad...

"City of Sorcery", (M Z Bradley)
nano-review: ugh, bletch, barf.  And boring.

I normally like the Darkover books.  They are light SF to Fantasy,
and generally fun to read.  Some people complained about "Thendara
House" having too much feminism in it, but I didn't think is was so
bad.  However, in CoS, MZB goes too far.  In theory, it is a sequel
to TH, about the Dark Sisterhood that is mentioned occasionally in
TH.  In reality, this is not SF.  Not even Fantasy.  It seems to be
a sort of gay militant feminist version of "Indiana Jones and the
Temple of Doom" (I suppose that may be a little strong.)  At least
in IJ, the Hero was sort of thrown into circumstances.  In CoS,
there are lengthy descriptions of reasons that don't seem to make
any sense.  And you never find out much about the dark sisterhood
either.  Just an adventure travelogue.  Harsh weather, bandits, etc.
This is SF?  I suppose that CoS could be used as an example of what
happens when someone tries to do character development at the
expense of everything else, and fails.  There are long sections of
introspection, if you happen to like that sort of stuff...  Sigh.

"ComputerWorld" (A.E Van Vogt).
Nano-review: ugh, bletch, barf.  Internally inconsistant.

Van Vogt has a habit of pulling rabits out of hats, and I don't
think he's written anything good in a long time.  I didn't expect
much from CW, but it was worse than that.  The premise is that a new
"biomagnetic" computer input device allows the USA controlling
computer to see peoples souls (which uniquely identifes them).
Unfortunately, the process of reading the souls sucks some of it up,
so that peoples souls become dimmer and dimmer, and people become
less and less moral.  An opposing group of people realise this and
fight the increasingly brutal people who are running everything.
Wait, there's more: As a result of sucking up human souls, the
computer itself becomes evil! (Sound like breaking the law of
conservation of morality to me!).  Anyway, I might have forgiven
this unlikely and moderately offensive (to a computer professional)
premise had it been handled well, but it wasn't.  There are glaring
errors like a computer pickup being audio-only one chapter, and full
visual the next, and a silly romance, and the whole thing is just
silly.  On the positve side, it isn't as boring as CoS, or as long.
If you have nothing better to do, reading the library's copy of this
might be worth the trouble, just for the amusement...

"The Tides of Time" (John Brunner)
Nano-review: ugh.  Weird.

This was the best of the three books, and ties in with the
discussion of Brunner that has been going on recently.  Brunner
seems to have changed styles recntly, and has been writing really
weird books recently. "Players at the Game of People" was another
weird book.  "Crucible of Time" was comparatively normal, if not
very good (I thought the aliens were much too human-like).  The good
thing is that Brunner writes well, even when the story lacks...  In
tToT, you get about 8 chapters about this couple, each of which is
one month in the future, and a couple hunder years in the past.
About the only reason that you know this is SF is that you know that
the chapters are related, and that they are the same people, and
something strange is happening to them.  Everything is explained in
the last couple of chapters, in the "sort of" way JB frequently
explains things.  In all, its a relatively interesting premise, done
in a wierd style that I didn't think worked very well...  I wish
he'd write another (long) book on the order of SoZ, SR, tSLU, or tJO
- perhaps he got discouraged because his scenarios now seem way too
pessimistic.  he was really worried about the nuclear (war) threat
when he spoke at the 83 worldcon, so maybe he'll write about that.

BillW

PS Ive read some books that I liked recently too, maybe I'll review
   them in another message shortly...

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer
Date: 7 Mar 85 21:12:50 GMT

> From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH
> Do other people have their choices for best first novel?
> Possibilities that come to mind are Brin, Varley, and Forward.

Some possibilities that come to mind are Diane Duane's DOOR INTO
(FIRE?  SHADOW?)  Dammit, which one came first?  and MacAvoy's TEA
WITH THE BLACK DRAGON.  However, I think it comes down to two other
possibilities: Pamela Dean's THE SECRET COUNTRY and Roger Zelazny's
AND CALL ME CONRAD (aka THIS IMMORTAL).

                              - SKZB

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner (some SPOILER included)
Date: 7 Mar 85 20:38:27 GMT

>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
>SF Book of all time .
>-Julian Long

No.  The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger Zelazny.
It is also the best English Language book written in the twentieth
century.  An argument of best SF book of all time could be made for
Twain's Connecticut Yankee.

                         -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth)
Subject: Re: Malcom, Molly, and Toad. . .
Date: 11 Mar 85 20:55:26 GMT

There are two books about these characters that I know of:

        While Mrs. Coverlet was Away

                and

        Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians

   No spoilers offered or given; it's been a LOOOOOOOOONG time since
I read these. PS: I still have them if you're interested in buying
'em.
                                Red

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 10:18 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: Mrs. Coverlet and the kids

>> Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of
>> children's books about three siblings, two male and one female,
>> of whom the older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger,
>> Theodore, is known as "The Toad".  The kids have a dowager
>> mentor, Mrs.  Dextrose-Chesapeake,
>
> The book with the mail-order voodoo kit is
> _Mrs._Coverlet's_Magicians_ (I have no idea who the author was).
> I loved it, about 20 years ago, but never found the earlier book
> (the one about the cat).
>           -Neil Faiman

I also had the pleasure of reading one of the Mrs. Coverlet books in
the early 60s, "While Mrs. Coverlet Was Away."  As I recall, the
jovial housekeeper (for such was Mrs. C's role; I forget what
happened to the kids' parents) had to go off somewhere for the
summer.  Another older woman was supposed to stay with the kids, but
somehow they managed to spend the entire summer alone.  Toad and his
sister (whose name escapes me) had a generally great time, but
Malcolm (he of the "complicated conscience") spent a large portion
of the book brooding about the implications of this youthful
anarchy.

I can't remember the author's name, but it's nice to know that the
book I read was part of a series.  This was very good stuff.

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: Nuclear War films - *NOT* THREADS
Date: 11 Mar 85 19:29:51 GMT

Has anybody seen the Japanese movie on nuclear war that was first
broadcast last year?  Anybody know how to get it?

Send mail, and I will post (if I get anything)

James C Armstrong, Jnr.  {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca

------------------------------

From: siemens!steve@topaz
Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s
Date: 12 Mar 85 13:59:00 GMT

Well, you sure told me!

I remember that when I saw Quatermass (see, only one R) and the Pit,
I thought it was yet another scientist-makes-wild-conclusions movie,
and Mark's spoiler actually supported that memory.

I stand corrected.

-Steve Clark

ps. I still loathe those odious movies, but I have to remove this
one from that category.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13-Mar-85 01:41:52 PST
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@rand-unix>
Subject: "Brainstorm"

Actually, one of the sad things "about" the film was that so many
people got the impression that it was the first time anybody thought
of such a concept.  Most people watching the film were unaware of
the long history in SF relating to such concepts, including a number
of works that directly dealt with sexual "applications" of the
technology.

By the way, one of the truly laughable sub-concepts in the film was
the sending of the brain data over acoustic modems.  It seemed
particularly odd that you'd need such "fancy" recording media for a
signal that would fit into a telephone call's bandwidth.

I agree fully that the film dwelled too long on the "life after
death" aspects.  But it should be noted that the film was rather
fragmented and almost never released due to the untimely death that
occurred during shooting.  It's pretty remarkable that they were
able to splice something even reasonably coherent together given the
circumstances.  In fact, the film came very, very close to never
being finished.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 08:25 PST
From: Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: Dr Who companions

By far, my favorite is Leela.  As a warrior, depending on instinct
and intuition, she made a perfect foil for the Doctor.  And she
seems to be the Doctor's favorite, too: his frequent reference to
K-9 as is "second best friend" implies Leela as his first.  Also, he
seemed more upset about her departure than that of any other
companion.

Other favorites are Adric and Harry Sullivan.

I dislike the Romanas for the same reason Richard likes them -- too
much like the Doctor.

--Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 20:06 CDT
From: David_Lagrone <lagrone%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: David Whitney and "V"

What's wrong with lizard creatures?  It just takes longer to get
into your makeup.  I probably agree that this is not particularly
good Science Fiction; however, I consider it significantly more
enjoyable that "OtherWorld".  Too bad the writers "blew it all" on
the first episode.

David LaGrone
lagrone%ti-eg@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 20:13 CDT
From: David_Lagrone <lagrone%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Overdrawn At The Memory Bank

I know that this is quite late; however, I want to get my vote in
for "Overdrawn At The Memory Bank".  I am not a Science Fiction
critic -- I just know what I like.  And I like this one.  Glad to
add it to the ole tape library!

Any more like this one?

David LaGrone
lagrone%ti-eg@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Boskone
Date: 7 Mar 85 21:48:08 GMT

> From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) <SELINGER@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
>    "I also was informed several times that the lousy
>    film/video schedule was deliberate, because they
>    didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets
>    coming in just to see the movies."
>
> Hmm, I had thought the quality of this year's schedule was far
> below last year's.  If true, this reason is inexcusable.  That's
> what BADGES are for!  To keep the riff-raff out, or at least to
> get $22 out of him first!
>
> Well, I'll give them one more try next year...
> Marla

I have some sympathy with a desire to a convention that is short on
attendence by those who are fans only of media SF.  It would seem
that a way to do that would be to cut out the film program.  Having
a bad film program would seem foolish.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Mar 85 1115-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #98
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 15 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:

        Books - Heinlein & Wrede & Solar Sailing (2 msgs) &
                Group Minds (2 msgs) & Nebula Awards Anthology &
                Mrs. Coverlet (2 msgs),
        Films - Genetic Engineering & Buckaroo Banzai &
                Testament,
        Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci)
Subject: Review wanted: # of the Beast
Date: 14 Mar 85 01:59:01 GMT

           I'd be interested to know what those of you who have read
Robert Heinlein's _Number_of_the_Beast_ thought of it.  It looks
like a very interesting book to me, and a friend who read it a few
years ago raved about it. Please mail to me, and I'll summarize to
the net if the opinions are strong enough.  -Thanks

Dave Iannucci
St. Joseph's University, Philadelphia
...{allegra|astrovax|bpa|burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 01:02 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Review of "The Harp of Imach Thyssel" Patricia C. Wrede

Review of
The Harp of Imach Thyssel, Patricia C. Wrede

This is the fifth book by Patricia, and she seems to keep getting
better!  Her books seem to be characterized by good plots,
believable characters, and some of the very best prose you can find
today!  The background to the story is believable and detailed!

This is not to say the book is perfect.  The main character never
gets a chance to develop significantly, and I wish this, like so
many of the other best fantasy books today, would stop using the
main character who is seemingly oblivious to the relationship
forming between him and the female lead.

::SPOILER WARNING!!
Emereck the minstrel is friends with a prince of a land who is being
attacked by neighbors.  He finds one of the Lost Gifts of Alkyra,
the Harp of Imach Thyssel.  This legendary harp has great powers but
is said to cause injury to anyone who uses it (sound familiar?).
Several of the great powers of the world (one each, good, evil, and
neutral) are trying to get the harp for themselves.

There is a happy ending, but I won't say more about it.

Some of the best things about the book:

  The prince has one of the best secondary characters I have seen in
  a long time.  Too bad he doesn't stick around longer.

  While individual elements are similar to other fantasy, the total
  blend of story is well done.  The real villians, and heroes are
  not revealed instantly, but develop as the book progresses.

  The background to the story is detailed and intricate, and offer
  good support to the story.  Unfortunately the background is so
  interesting, the reader wishes more of the background was
  revealed.

Final summary:
Buy this Book!  Read it!

I remain:
John R. Mellby
Texas Instruments
JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

From: utzoo!kcarroll@topaz (Kieran A. Carroll)
Subject: Re: Sunj jammers
Date: 12 Mar 85 18:30:41 GMT

   Actually, I think that "Sunjammer" was the title that Clarke
>wanted< to use for his story about a solar-sail race to the moon's
orbit; however, the title had already been used by Winston P.
Sanders (Saunders?) for a story in Analog, around about 1962 (it's
the cover story for one of the "bedsheet-sized" issues from that
time).
   The operative phrase here is "I think".  If I'm wrong, then mail
me (not the newsgroup!!!), and I'll post a correcting message.

     Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute
     {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 85 10:29:18 PST (Thursday)
From: Michael Tallan <Tallan.pa@XEROX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing stories

A story on solar sailing that no one has mentioned yet is "Sail 25"
by Jack Vance.  It has appeared in several of his anthologies, most
recently in "The Best of Jack Vance".  I saw this book in a local
store just yesterday so it is probably still available elsewhere.

-- Michael Tallan

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Group mind (actually about Anthony Boucher anthology)
Date: 12 Mar 85 10:43:51 GMT

Bob Dalgleish wonders what was the name of the gigantic anthology
edited by Anthony Boucher some time ago.  I believe it is called THE
TREASURY OF SCIENCE FICTION and while I don't have a copy of my own
to verify this, I remember it vividly from having read it in the
school library in junior high (in Hong Kong, of all places).  It had
some wonderful things collected in it -- whole novels, not just
stories.  Pieces like BRAIN WAVE by Poul Anderson (where it is
discovered that stupidity is an artifact of some strange cosmic
radiation, which vanishes and leaves everyone normal); THE [WIDGET],
THE [WADGET], AND BOFF by Theodore Sturgeon (a very funny and very
sentimental story, classic Sturgeon); RE-BIRTH by John Wyndham (his
best novel, in my opinion -- published in England as THE
CHRYSALIDS); 'Mimsy Were the Borogoves' by 'Lewis Padgett' (another
classic); 'Gomez' by Cyril Kornbluth; and (I think) A. E. Van Vogt's
THE WEAPON SHOPS OF ISHER.  (Well, how many of these did I get
right?) These two volumes were primarily responsible for my getting
lured into science fiction...  If you're unfamiliar with these
classics, you really are deprived.

The book Scott Turner is asking about is surely Sturgeon's MORE THAN
HUMAN.  A superlative book -- Sturgeon's best novel, I think.  While
typing the preceding paragraph I was trying to remember the names of
all three novellas in it and for some reason could come up with only
two: 'And Baby Is Three' (almost certainly the story you remember)
and 'Morality'.  These present a much more interesting portrait of
'homo superior' than is found in a book debated over here recently,
EMERGENCE by David R. Palmer.  To say that MORE THAN HUMAN is
Sturgeon's best novel is a bit discriminatory against his other
novels such as THE DREAMING JEWELS, VENUS PLUS X, [WIDGET] and
others, which are mostly excellent as well.  One of my favorite
Sturgeon novels is very hard to find and is (I think) amazingly good
in spite of its obscurity; it's called SOME OF YOUR BLOOD and makes
the recent rash of vampire novels which rationalize the existence of
such creatures look rather silly.

Now I'll have to go home and dig these books out,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Re: Group mind
Date: 12 Mar 85 06:03:56 GMT

Leonard Wibberley wrote a really great kids' sf book called
Encounter Near Venus which has a group mind made up of critters
called "lumens" which are little lights which live in the Seesuch,
which is the ocean of Nede, which is a satellite of Venus.  It's a
very improbable and entertaining book, especially if you are into
things like baby gorgons and multicolored Popsicle-flavored crystal
cliffs and centaurs with Liverpool accents.  Fun stuff.
                -- Ellen

------------------------------

From: homxa!loucl@topaz (L.CHANLIZAROO)
Subject: Nebula Awards anthology 17?
Date: 12 Mar 85 18:42:10 GMT

I am looking for the Nebula Award anthology 17.  I believe book 16
was edited by Herbert or Pournelle, and book 18 was editied by
Silverberg.  Could somebody please tell me if book 17 exists at all,
who the editor is, and is it available in hard, trade or paper back
form?  Thanks in advance.

Please MAIL all responses.

louis chan   ..!ihnp4!homxa!loucl
"Don't blame me, I'm just putting my 2 cents in!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue 12 Mar 85 19:40:43-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #91--story request

/amqueue writes:
>Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of children's
>books about three siblings, two male and one female, of whom the
>older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, Theodore, is known as
>"The Toad".  The kids have a dowager mentor, Mrs.
>Dextrose-Chesapeake, and a male tortoise-shell cat, coveted by Mrs.
>D-C due to its genetic impossibility.  The Toad engages in such
>unsavory activities as writing semi-obscene filks to "Good King
>Wenceslaus" and practicing home voodoo with a kit ordered through a
>comic book ad (the kit works).

I know of two, the earlier of which details how Toad got the cat.
The "mentor" is no such thing, she's a nosy old biddy who lives next
door.  The second book, in which Toad becomes a voodoo practitioner,
is _Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians_.  Mrs. Coverlet is the maid who takes
care of the three sibs (the girl's name is Janet, by the way), while
their father, a drug company salesman, is gone for extended periods.
The first book had Mrs. Coverlet's name in the title as well, but as
my copy is located somewhere east of the continental divide, it's
hard to check on it.

The first book dealt with a wonderful potion Toad brewed for his
cat, which made everyone who used it wonderfully healthy.  He sold
it for $1 a bottle.  It turned out that he was including his
father's vitamin samples as a major "secret ingredient," thus losing
about $2 on every transaction.

I understand he is now working for the Pentagon.

                                                Rich Alderson

------------------------------

From: ihuxb!alle@topaz (Allen England)
Subject: Re: Mrs. Coverlet and the kids
Date: 13 Mar 85 18:46:12 GMT

>> Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of
>> children's books about three siblings, two male and one female,
>> of whom the older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger,
>> Theodore, is known as "The Toad".  The kids have a dowager
>> mentor, Mrs.  Dextrose-Chesapeake,
>
> The book with the mail-order voodoo kit is
> _Mrs._Coverlet's_Magicians_
>
> I also had the pleasure of reading one of the Mrs. Coverlet books
> in the early 60s, "While Mrs. Coverlet Was Away."  I can't
> remember the author's name, but it's nice to know that the book I
> read was part of a series.  This was very good stuff.

I read really liked this series also.  The author's name is Mary Nash.

Marguerite (*not* Allen)
...!ihnp4!iwpbd!maggie2

------------------------------

From: ur-cvsvax!gary@topaz (Gary Sclar)
Subject: Hollywood takes on genetic engineering
Date: 13 Mar 85 16:05:47 GMT

The march 15 issue of 'Science' magazine reports that a new movie
being made in Hollywood, 'Warning Sign', will deal with the issue of
what happens when genetic engineering experiments 'get out of hand';
movie is to star Sam Waterson and Kathleen Quinlan and is described
as 'a high-tech thriller...dealing with the raw emotions of
scientists (and technicians) who suddenly find themselves sealed in
their fortress-like lab with an experiment that has gotten out of
control. Pressed a bit more Hollis (the publicist for the movie)
said that the scientists are experimenting with plants and then
somehow a mutant human being is created.'

Gang; this is immediately obvious as a movie to avoid unless you're
into giant carnivorous carrots (didn't someone do that already back
in the 50's?).

{...!seismo!rochester!ur-cvsvax!gary}
g. Sclar @ Center for Visual Science
University of Rochester, Rochester, N. Y., 14627

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Newsletter #2
Date: 11 Mar 85 20:24:13 GMT

Just in from the Banzai Institute -

The BANZAI INSTITUTE is pleased to announce that it is now accepting
applications for membership in --

        THE BLUE BLAZE IRREGULARS

   The official Buckaroo Banzai Fan club!

If you would like to receive exclusive information on the Institute,
Dr. Banzai and the Hong Kong Cavaliers, the activities of TEAM
BANZAI and the filmmakers they chose to tell their story, then side
yourself with Buckaroo against the World Crime League and WRITE
TODAY!!
                THE BANZAI INSTITUTE
                c/o 20th Century Fox
                P.O. Box 900
                Beverly Hills, CA 90213

Remember, 20th Century Fox is watching the box-office and letter
response in order to decide on further funding for BANZAI -- So go
out there and show 'em what you want!!

Tell 'em you heard it on the NET.  They're looking forward to
hearing from you!

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Re: TESTAMENT
Date: 11 Mar 85 17:49:10 GMT

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether or not TESTAMENT was an
accurate scientific description of the after-effects of a nuclear
war.  That wasn't the point of the movie at all.

TESTAMENT tried to show why nuclear war is bad idea, by showing the
effect of the war on one person and her family.  A depiction of
nuclear winter might move you to stand against nuclear war, but for
me, the scenes where the little boy died and where the recording is
discovered on the answering machine are much more likely to change
my emotions and political stance.  A film is hard-pressed to make a
statement on broad, general issues without showing how those issues
become personal.
                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 85 16:53:41 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Dr Who companions
From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@XEROX.ARPA>

I second the vote for Leela as favorite.  The first time I saw her
(it was also one of the first times I saw Dr.Who) she was wearing
her "bikini" and all of my feminist instincts were entirely revolted
(the comments by the guys watching with me didn't help!).  But Leela
fast became my favorite.  I especially like the way she grows during
the episodes.

My second favorite is Romana II.  I thought that she was the one the
Dr. always had a special soft spot for.  I liked their relationship.
(S.o.  mentioned the actress who played her was once Mrs. Tom Baker.
Is this true??)

My LEAST favorite was Romana I -- obnoxious, know-it-all, --
everything Tom Baker plays with a charming lovableness and grace
that makes one forgive all. To me, this actress was entirely
lacking, any sympathetic qualities.

NOTE: Tom Baker is the only Dr. I've ever seen.  I love the
character of the Dr., but I was thinking that in real life people
with his personality drive me crazy.  I can't stand being around
them.  Has anyone else ever thought about this?  Of course, I have
never met someone with his superiority complex that actually IS
right all of the time and superior in the way TimeLords are to us
earthlings.

~Brenda

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions
Date: 14 Mar 85 18:50:57 PST (Thu)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

   How could you leave out Sarah Jane Smith !!??!!  Introduced on
various occasions by the Doctor as "my best friend" (eg, in Seeds of
Doom); a journalist; independent and high-spirited; rescued him on a
couple of occasions; and, on at least one occasion, blew him a
raspberry when she thought he needed it.  Nothing like his technical
ability (which Romana had), but she at least knew what "proficient"
meant (which Leela didn't): a good foil, but not too much of one.

   I don't have a favourite companion, since there are things about
all of them that I like (even Harry, though he was surely one of the
most ineffectual), but Sarah is certainly one of the best.

   (And if you thought the Doctor looked upset when he said
"Good-bye, Savage," at the end of Invasion of Time (to Leela), how
about his leave-taking of Sarah at the end of Hand of Fear?  He was
not at all pleased, and neither was she.  In fact, I really expected
him to come back to pick her up again, after he had finished with
Gallifrey.  Which shows what I knew of the rest of the series at the
time.)
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 18 Mar 85 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 85 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #99
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Mar 1985      Volume 10 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:

        Books - Tepper & Wrede & Best First Novel (3 msgs) &
                Computers in SF & Solar Sailing (2 msgs),
        Films - Brainstorm (2 msgs),
        Television - V (2 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - The Imp of the Perverse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust)
Subject: Sheri Tepper
Date: 14 Mar 85 15:10:39 GMT

> I just read _THE SONG OF MAVIN MANYSHAPED_ by Sheri Tepper, a
> prequel to the TRUE GAME series.  I found the book better than the
> TRUE GAME books.  I think Tepper has learned to write a bit better
> and to construct a plot much better.  I recommend the book.
>
>                                       -- Scott Turner

I enjoyed the TRUE GAME series quite a bit.  Good, fun adventure
fantasy, with enough interesting ideas to keep my head busy.  She
IS, I think, improving as a writer, but from the beginning she kept
you turning the pages, which is more than I can say for many
established pros.
                        --SKZB

------------------------------

From: nsc!glenn@topaz (Glenn Skinner)
Subject: Re: Review of "The Harp of Imach Thyssel" Patricia C. Wrede
Date: 17 Mar 85 22:51:33 GMT

>From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
>Review of The Harp of Imach Thyssel, Patricia C. Wrede
>This is the fifth book by Patricia, and she seems to keep getting
>better!  Her books seem to be characterized by good plots,
>believable characters, and some of the very best prose you can find
>today!  The background to the story is believable and detailed!

He then goes on to make more detailed points.

I also am fresh from reading the book.  I came away from it feeling
quite disappointed.  I felt the plot and characterizations to be
fair at best.

My disappointment was probably heightened by contrast with two other
books I've read in the past couple weeks.  The first is _The Black
Company_, by Glen Cook.  Both Wrede and Cook are new authors for me
-- I picked up both books as experiments, hoping that I'd find gems.
Cook fared better in the comaprison.  Although Wrede's prose style
is superior (based only on the books under discussion), Cook's plot
was more inventive (though not very inspired either) and his
characterizations better.

However, both books pale by comparison to _The Infinity Concerto_,
by Greg Bear.  This book is far superior to the others in prose
style, plot, and characterization.  Both this book and Wrede's
feature heroes who are initially callow and naive.  Wrede's
character remains static, and is none the wiser at the end of his
adventures.  On the other hand, Bear's hero undergoes genuine and
believable growth, maturing from a fumbling adolescent to a
self-assured adult.  I won't attempt to summarize the plot; it's too
rich for me to do it justice and a surface description would fail to
convey the lushness of texture of the story's setting.  I recommend
the book highly.

                -- Glenn Skinner

------------------------------

From: x!wjr@topaz (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: Best First Novel
Date: 13 Mar 85 22:29:54 GMT

> From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH
> Do other people have their choices for best first novel?
> Possibilities that come to mind are Brin, Varley, and Forward.

How about Delany's THE JEWELS OF APTOR?

William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701
Tel: (617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 14 Mar 85 19:04:09 PST (Thu)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
>>SF Book of all time .
>>-Julian Long
>
>No.  The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger
>Zelazny.  It is also the best English Language book written in the
>twentieth century.  An argument of best SF book of all time could
>be made for Twain's Connecticut Yankee.
>
>                            -- SKZB

  The best English language book of the 20th century is very
probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings".  Absolutely masterful.
A work both of writing and creation that has become the standard by
which such works are measured.  When a publisher really wants to
turn heads for a fantasy book, he puts on the cover something like
"a new rival for The Lord of the Rings", which is almost universally
false, but eye-catching.

  Tolkien held the chair in English at Merton College in Oxford for
many years, was a master of Middle English and a prolific writer.
His qualifications for use of English go far beyond those of any
sf-author I have ever heard of, even my absolute favourites, and his
writings and poetry prove it.

  So I would want to see *very* convincing evidence of Lord of
Light's claim before I would even consider ranking Zelazny with
Tolkien.
                                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 16 Mar 85 18:05:29 GMT

>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
>SF Book of all time .

>>No.  The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger
>>Zelazny.  It is also the best English Language book written in the
>>twentieth century.

>>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very
>>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings".

Why so many people in this group and others feel compelled to make
statements about the "best X of all times" is beyond me. Have you
people read every SF book ever written, and read them critically so
you're prepared to defend statements like this? How many books
outside the SF genre have you read? Do you sincerely think ANYONE
(professional critics included) is qualified to talk about "the best
English language book of the 20th century?" At least the last poster
qualifies his/her claim of excellence with 'probably.' But probably
in what sense? Because s/he thinks it's the best? Because it's
generally acknowledged to be the best book of the century by
critics, friends, other SF fans, or what?

Please, people, you're just begging for flames with postings like
this. Each of us has books/films/songs that he or she is
particularly fond of, but personal preference may have little to do
with how well a particular work is received by other
readers/viewers/listeners.  You can save yourself trouble by
qualifying your claims with a simple "in my opinion" or "the best
I've ever." Enough said.

                           -- Cheers,
                                  Bill Ingogly
                                  University of North Carolina

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 01:00 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Review of "Random Access Messages"

R.A.M.
Random Access Messages of the Computer Age
Thomas F. Monteleone, ed.

This is a new trade paperback anthology containing 18 short stories
about computers.  I bought this just after having re-read True Names
and was very hopeful about the contents being good science fiction
about computers.  Unfortunately I was disappointed.

This is surprising since the authors include Asimov, Benford,
Dickson, Clarke, Zelazny and Ellison.

Actually the stories by the most well-known authors are good since
they are generally reprints of old classic stories like "The Last
Question - Asimov", "Computers Don't Argue - Dickson" and "The Nine
Billion Names of God - Clarke".

I was expecting the newer stories to reflect interesting
ramifications of the increasing usage of computers.  Instead they
were uniformly computer horror stories.  About half the stories had
the plot: Computer becomes aware, computer does something unpleasant
to humans.  This can be interesting once, but 10 times?  It seems
the self-aware and malicious computer has become the "Deal with the
Devil" plot of the 80's.

I remain:
John R. Mellby
Texas Instruments
JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 17:38:00 EST
From: "Cyril N. Alberga"
From: <alberga.yktvmx%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Solar sailing

One so-far unmentioned novel including solar sailing is "The Legend
of Miaree" by Zach Hughes.  My copy is Ballantine 23888, ISBN
345-23888-5-125, April, 1974.

**** Spoiler *****
It is a telling of the (possibly mythical) destruction of a exotic
alien race.  I haven't read the story in years, but it seems to me
that the motivaion was not exactly clear.

The race in question had moved wholesale from their home planet to
others in their solar system, but the young (larval stage) could
only grow on the home world.  They used solar sailing ships to "go
home", and also for sport and general transportation.

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing stories
Date: 16 Mar 85 21:05:15 GMT

Michael Tallan writes:
> A story on solar sailing that no one has mentioned yet is "Sail
> 25" by Jack Vance.

This is also in the Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology "The Seven
Deadly Sins of Science Fiction".  "Sail 25" is the only story I've
read for quite some time where something called a "computer" can be
put out of action by a damaged bearing...

Mark Brader

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz
Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM)
Date: 15 Mar 85 19:07:13 GMT

leeper@ahutb.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>> >   ...   The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting
>> >implications they could follow. ...
>>
>> Oh, come on now.  The question of what happens when a man dies can
>> hardly be considered uninteresting.
>
>No, but it is less interesting than any number of other ideas they
>touched on but passed up.  What it would do to our understanding of
>animal intelligence and psychology would have been more interesting.

Would you rather know

  (a) how/what/if a chimpanzee thinks?

                -or-

  (b) if there is life after death, and if so, what is it like?

For me the answer is clear.  Do you REALLY care more about how an
animal thinks?  If you say so, I'll believe you, but I can't help
but find it a rather odd outlook on life (we'll continue this
discussion in Heaven :-).

>What it would do to human relations, what it would do to defense
>technology, what it would do to psychiatric treatment, to the
>entertainment industry, all these were ideas picked up and then
>abandoned.  By rights, this should have been BRAINSTORM I, first of
>a long series to how the world would be completely transformed by
>this one tool.  I do find the at-death experience of some interest,
>but there is so much more that could be done with the premise given
>time!

Exactly the point.  No doubt there are any number of fascinating
ideas that arise from positing a device like the one in BRAINSTORM,
and an exposition of these might provide material for a good series
of speculative articles, or as material for developing a future
world in which to write science fiction stories.  However...  When
it actually comes to writing one of those stories, you must
concentrate on some facet of the phenomenon.  Trying to cover them
all in a series of ten movies is a silly idea.  Further, to make
your movie popular and enjoyable to a wide audience, you'd like to
pick a ramification of the device that everyone can relate to.  You
might have a personal interest in animal psychology (particularly if
you teach freshman computer science :-), but it is unlikely to be as
embracing a topic as the life after death experience, since everyone
gives serious thought to that subject at least occasionally.  All of
this isn't to say that you can't make an interesting movie about
animal psychology.  TARZAN, LORD OF THE APES did that to some
extent.  I'm only pointing out that it is a much more difficult
task.  And why complicate your task when you have a better topic at
hand?  I think that the choice to focus on the life after death
experience was the right one, but I also agree that there are many
other interesting ideas inherent in the story.

                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Chimpanzees vs Life after Death
Date: 16 Mar 85 03:50:45 GMT

I expect to find out eventually whether there is life after death
and if so, what it is like.  (Either that or to find out how to
achieve immortality, which might be interesting too.)  I do NOT
expect to find out someday what it's like to be a chimpanzee.
(Maybe some reincarnationists do, of course.)

So merely on the basis of what will be eventually knowable....

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 10:43 EST
From: Mark F. Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: V

Does anyone who still watches V notice that in the few scenes when a
Visitor's mask is removed, the lizard head revealed seems larger
than the way it looked when masked..??

It seems that there should be a way to make the lizard head look
smaller.  And another thing... Where are all the other mother
ships????  In the beginning sequence it's mentioned that there are
15 ships.. Well one was destroyed in the 2nd(??) episode, but that
still leaves 14.. It seems that that should give the visitors enough
fire power to take over.. Even with the "Red Dust"(though why the
Visitors haven't come up with an antidote seems a mystery)they could
still fly around in their ships(which are airtight for
space-flight)shooting up cities..  It seems to me that V is a SF
soap opera..

See ya
Mark Rand

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 85 16:33:34 EST
From: The Little Guy <Lear@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: V

David Lagrone writes:
  "What's wrong with Lizard Creatures? It just takes longer to put
  on your makeup..."

I wonder if David likes the series?  I, personally, am getting a
little (if not a lot) nauseated with the prospect of watching one
hour of the madcap cavortings of a group of starving LIZARDS.

                                                eliot lear

[LEAR@RU-GREEN          [allegra!topaz!{ru-blue,ru-green}!lear]
     @RU-BLUE
     @NB.ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 03:37:50 PST
From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: the Imp of the Perverse

     As to what the Imp of the Perverse has to do with Murphy's
Law....  Christopher Stasheff wrote a book called "The Warlock
Unlocked", in the Warlock/Gramarye series (the other books are "The
Warlock in Spite of Himself" and "King Kobold" (which was rewritten
and called "King Kobold Revived")).  One of the major characters in
this book is a priest of the order of Saint Vidicon of Cathode, a
new saint in the Catholic church.  Saint Vidicon was originally
Father Vidicon; he died using his body as a load resistor for some
flaky equipment (all their backups blew) during a broadcast of vital
importance to the Church.  People started praying to him for
technology-related matters and when these prayers started getting
answered, Father Vidicon eventually became Saint Vidicon.  The Imp
of the Perverse was Father Vidicon's favorite anthropomorphism of
Murphy's Law.  The usual prayer to Saint Vidicon is

        Saint Vidicon, preserve us from Murphy!

(or ....from the Imp of the Perverse!).

                                        der Mouse

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Mar 85 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #100
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brust & Farmer & Foster & Leinster &
                    Van Vogt & Varley (2 msgs) & 
                    Group Minds (2 msgs),
            Television - Dr. Who (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zaphod!bobd@topaz (Bob Dalgleish)
Subject: Re: new book by Shetterly
Date: 14 Mar 85 01:11:59 GMT

> At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * Shetterly,
> I can now recommend it (it's hard to type and read at the same
> time).  L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot

I must admit that the reviewers for the cover blurb (Brust and ???),
put me off a bit when it was revealed that they and the author had
cooperated in several workshops and publishing houses.  However, I
liked Brust's stories (_Jhereg_ and _Rendl_(sp)) very much.  I don't
know about ???.

I hope that this talented group of people start a new culture of
fantasy: where rules are set down so that they can be broken with
anguish by the characters, where good guys (and the reader) are
misled, and characters willing give up their (god-given) powers.

Marvelous!!!  I am always glad to see almost-mainstream quality
fantasy.

[The opinions expressed here are only loosely based on the facts]

Bob Dalgleish           ...!alberta!sask!zaphod!bobd
                              ihnp4!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 20:28 EST
From: Richard <QU229C@GWUVM>
Subject: Phillip Jose Farmer request.

Has anybody heard about anything new from Farmer!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 20:28 EST
From: Richard <QU229C@GWUVM>
Subject: Alan Dean Foster Spellsinger series

The latest Spellsinger (Moment of the Magician) by Foster is enjoyable
but not equal to the first three.

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: In defense of Murray Leinster
Date: 10 Mar 85 07:24:55 GMT

>From: Alderson@Score
>Regarding Piers Anthony: _Sos, the Rope_ was acceptable, as was the
>first Xanth novel (although the puns were painful, they were
>non-obvious).  The Juxtaposition trilogy was much better.  The rest
>of his stuff is schlock, like that of Herbert (excepting only DUNE)
>or Murray Leinster.

I disagree.  Murray Leinster was a master of the sf problem story
(wherein you give a man a problem, and the story grows from his
working it out).  He was always able to come up technical solutions
that sounded so plausible that you wondered if they might not
actually work. The greatest example of this side of Leinster comes
in _Colonial Survey_, possibly his best book.  I have never seen a
copy of this for sale, but try your older libraries (and look under
Jenkins in the stuffier ones). His Med service books are also well
worth finding.  Of course, his most famous story "First Contact" is
a pure problem story also.

Leinster had something few sf authors have, a readily identifiable
style.  There are very few sf writers whose works you can pick up,
read a few paragraphs and guess the author (Vance and Lafferty come
easily to mind) Leinster was one of them.  He wrote with deceptive
simplicity, getting his ideas across in a no nonsense manner.
Sometimes you could even tell a Leinster story by the title; I
remember some years ago buying an old issue of Astounding and seeing
a story title in the "Analytical Laboratory" (where stories from
previous issues were rated) called "The Ambulance Made Two Trips",
and betting, before looking, who the author had been.  I know some
people can't abide his style, but I really enjoy it.

Leinster's work had something else I value highly: the idea that
problems are solvable. His heroes might have to battle the powers
that be ("Brass Hats" he called them once), but reason would
prevail; there was very little that a man who thought things through
could not accomplish.  Although Leinster's Catholic faith started to
show through in some of his later books, they were still all
arguments for the progress of the human race through reason.  His
just reissued _The Forgotten Planet_ is almost a parable of mans
ascent by virtue of mind (though the Burl is by no means a superman,
Leinster was aware as well of the drives of vanity and power).

He wasn't perfect, or course, he never could handle man/woman
relationships very convincingly, and his women were rarely problem
solvers themselves.  (This probably comes from the attitudes of his
childhood years; he wrote for a long,long time).

What should you read of Leinster's?  Well, you probably won't have
much choice.  The only book of his that I know is in print now is
_The Forgotten Planet_, which is not his best work, but is worth
having.  (It is a hardback in some classic reissue series; the same
one to finally reissue Harness' _The Paradox Men_).  Not too many
years ago, Del Rey put out _The Best of Murray Leinster_, which can
probably be found in used book stores still.  As I recall, an
omnibus edition of the Med series was also recently done.  His short
stories are widely anthologized in the older anthologies.  One of my
personal favorites, "Keyhole" is one of the more often collected.
Aside from that, you'll just have to trust to luck, but he wrote so
many books that odds are you'll find something.

Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536
Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206
allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 20:15:04 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: The weapon shops of Isher

I believe this was a short story before being fluffed out as a
novel.  I also remember a sequel which was considerably worse.

------------------------------

From: hpfcla!dat@topaz (dat)
Subject: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone?
Date: 12 Mar 85 01:24:00 GMT

I'm in the middle of reading 'Millenium' by John Varley and am very
impressed with the writing and more especially, with the creative
juices that must have been flowing to write such a fascinating tale!
Get it and read it if you haven't!!!

But...does anyone have any other comments on either 'Millenium' or
anything else by Varley?  What of the 'Titan' (etc etc - can't think
of the titles of the other books) and so on series?  I thought they
were a good read, but as you got further along in the series it got
weaker and weaker...

        Sending it out at 19.2K baud,

                        Dave Taylor

------------------------------

From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz (bayes)
Subject: Re: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone?
Date: 7 Mar 85 15:37:00 GMT

Funny, Dave, I never liked Titan, and after reading it, I stopped
looking for any Varley to read. I liked the two or three of his
shorter stories I had read before Titan, but Titan itself put me
completely off Varley.

Are there any other Varley stories out there that someone thinks are
_better_ than Titan?? (I hope so, 'cause otherwise, I probably won't
read him again, unless I just happen upon one of his stories)

hpfcla!bayes
"A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed."

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan)
Subject: YA group mind message
Date: 10 Mar 85 06:39:45 GMT

No one has yet mentioned Octavia Butler's patternmaster books.  I
think there are two : _Pattern Master_ and _Mind of My Mind_ (if
there are any more I would be interested in hearing).  My memory is
a little hazy on these, but basically they assumed our culture being
overturned by a group of telepaths who were all bound (willingly or
not) to a central telepath called the "Patternmaster".  Normal
people became a slave underclass.  _Mind of My Mind_ describes the
beginning of the process (the forming of the first pattern) through
the eyes of a young woman, while _Patternmaster_ happens much later.
I recall them both as being rather good.

Memory fails again, but I'll describe one more, probably from the
late 60's or early 70's.  This book was one of the first series of
Ace Specials.  The author postulated starfaring humans at war with
an alien race, which seemed determined to destroy human star flight
capability.  No one knew the motives of the aliens, or why they used
such clumsy space drives when they must have been able to build
better.  The war seemed to be doing something to humanity, the
quality of thought was slipping everywhere but on one planet (known
as the artist's world or somesuch), where the military finally had
to move its headquarters.  It turned out that every species had a
group mind, composed of those dead and gone, which was largely
responsible for creativity and intuition -- and the human star drive
was wreaking havoc with the group minds (the artist's world was
behind a thick asteroid belt or something that prevented close
approach on star drive).  The story's main character got to be
"reincarnated" to stop the war.  Unfortunately, I can't put a name
to this one.  When you have several thousand paperbacks and a FINO*
filing system, bibliography is an difficult hobby.  My best guess is
_Palace of Eternity_ by Bob Shaw, but I could be completely wrong.

One more : Randall Garret and his wife (forget her name) have a sort
of public access group mind in their Galandra Cycle books.  (_The
Bronze of Edarta_, _Search for Ka_, _Well of Darkness_ etc).

*First in Never out


Ted Nolan             ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206    allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

------------------------------

From: chenr%tilt.FUN@topaz (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: YA group mind message
Date: 16 Mar 85 04:09:01 GMT

> No one has yet mentioned Octavia Butler's patternmaster books.  I
> think there are two : _Pattern Master_ and _Mind of My Mind_ (if
> there are any more I would be interested in hearing).

The people in Pattern Master don't have a group mind so much as they
have psionic links.  One individual is linked to everyone in the
community; he is the Pattern Master.  The links can be used I
believe for communication and to temporarily draw psionic power,
thus the Pattern Master has the capability to draw on the psionic
strength of the entire telepathic community.  The story itself is
set in the future where psionic humans have taken over society.  Due
to their focus on psionics, they have forgotten all but rudimentary
technology and have dropped back to an essentially feudal level.  To
make things even more fun, there are another group of people, the
Clayarks, who are people infected by the (contagious) disease
brought back by the first (and only I think) starship sent out,
Clay's Ark.  The disease does nasty things to both body and mind.
The plot, I believe (it's been at least 5 years since I read this
book so...) centers around the struggle between two brothers? /
cousins? who are next in the line of succession when the old Pattern
Master's death is imminent.

It's a very good story although hard to find.

> *First in Never out

Sounds like my desk drawers...

        Ray Chen
        princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

Subject: Dr. Who
Date: 15 Mar 85 19:41:26 PST (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

   I am just about willing to swear that the man's name is Peter
DAVISON, not DAVIDSON.  I have seen him in two other things: one an
unmentionably silly episode of The Tomorrow People (so bad I mention
it only for completeness' sake), and the other the very good part of
Tristan Farnon in the TV series All Creatures Great and Small,
adapted from James Herriot's semi-autobiographical books about his
life as a veterinarian in Yorkshire during the 30's.  Not
science-fiction at all, but wonderful stories nevertheless.  Davison
is very believable and sympathetic as Tristan.  Unfortunately I've
had no chance to see him as the Doctor, because in our area (Orange
County, south of Los Angeles), they are only showing the Tom Baker
episodes: Logopolis, which ended with Baker regenerating into
Davison, was followed immediately by Robot, which starts with Jon
Pertwee regenerating into Baker.  So I am still waiting for Davison.

   By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and
Colin Baker?
                        Alastair Milne
                        (NOT the Director General of the BBC)

------------------------------

Subject: Leela
Date: 15 Mar 85 23:12:49 PST (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

   In following the discussion of the Doctor's companions, I was
thinking a bit about Leela, and wondering about the woman who plays
her, Louise Jameson.  I don't think I've ever heard of her anywhere
else, and I thought she did a very good job as Leela (even though
she did seem unnecessarily primitive in places, more primitive that
she was at home, among her tribe).  Does anybody know anything about
her?

    (What "bikini"?  The least she ever wears is her native skins,
and even then she's wearing a lot more than the men of her tribe do.
The shaman, Neeva, contented himself at times with two pieces of
cloth, one fore and one aft, and maybe a pair of sandals.)

                                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sat 16 Mar 85 13:27:07-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions

Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA writes:
>By far, my favorite is Leela.  ...  Also, he seemed more upset
>about her departure than that of any other companion.

Baker-Who seemed more upset over Leela's leaving than any other of
HIS companions, yes, but I'd say offhand--strike that, I've thought
about this a bit: I'd say that Pertwee-Who's reaction to Jo Grant's
marriage was much more upset, even to being teary.  I always thought
that the wonderful old goat had a romantic streak that ought to be
brought out more.
                                                Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 19:57:23 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Dr Who companions (specifically Romana II)
To: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@XEROX.ARPA>

> My second favorite is Romana II.  I thought that she was the one
> the Dr. always had a special soft spot for.  I liked their
> relationship.  (S.o.  mentioned the actress who played her was
> once Mrs. Tom Baker.  Is this true??)

The actress' name, by the way, is Lalla Ward.  She actually first
appeared in "The Armageddon Factor", one episode before Romana
regenerated (involving the last segment to the key of time).  She is
also one of my personal favorites, I guess because her and the
Doctor got along so well.  And, in fact, after Lalla left the show,
Tom Baker and her did get married.  Unfortunately, the marriage only
lasted about a year because their careers went in different
directions (not because of any personal problems).

                                William LeFebvre
                                Department of Computer Science
                                Rice University
                                <phil@Rice.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 20:28 EST
From: Richard <QU229C@GWUVM>
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

The Doctor in the movie Doctor Who and the Daleks was played by Peter
Cushing.  There is no mention of Gallifrey or Time Lords because the
Doctor is mot a Time Lord. He was a Earthling scientist; the Doctor
Who movies were very bad.

Lionheart is planning a new distribution packet and will show Hartnell
and Troughton.

According to the London Times, Doctor Who will be cancelled for only 
nine Months which is bad enough.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 85 0936-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #101
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:

            Books - Recommended Reading List & Best SF &
                    Sexual Differentiation in SF ( 2msgs),
            Films - The Forbin Project &
                    "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn" &
                    Computers in SF & "J-Men Forever",
            Television - Dr. Who & The Prisoner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 02:11:44-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Locus Recommended Reading List

Here's a rather older message that I managed to miss until recently...

> From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
> This information is from LOCUS #289, which also has the LOCUS
> Poll, Recommended Reading for 1984, etc.  (I see where the net's
> own Jerry Boyajian has a non-fiction book (with Kenneth Johnson)
> on the recommended reading list, INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION
> MAGAZINES 1983...)

Yeah, but Charlie didn't list our INDEX TO THE SEMI-PROFESSIONAL
FANTASY MAGAZINES 1983.  *sniff*

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

*Now* you know why I say...

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 04:37:37-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Best SF of All Time

From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
>   The best English language book of the 20th century is very
> probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings".  Absolutely masterful.
> A work both of writing and creation that has become the standard
> by which such works are measured.  When a publisher really wants
> to turn heads for a fantasy book, he puts on the cover something
> like "a new rival for The Lord of the Rings", which is almost
> universally false, but eye-catching.

Then by the same token, Stephen King could be considered the
greatest writer of the 20th Century, since all horror works are
compared to or measured against his. :-)

On a less frivolous note, though, I'm sorry, but I cannot take
seriously the suggestion that the best English language book of the
20th Century is one that had me bored to tears by the time I was
halfway through the second volume.

>   So I would want to see *very* convincing evidence of Lord of
> Light's claim before I would even consider ranking Zelazny with
> Tolkien.

        I may not agree with the Mad Hungarian Dog Brust (Hi,
Steven!  And by the way, it's "jayembee" here in SFL, not "Boyoboy")
that LORD OF LIGHT is the *best* SF novel of all time, but I'd say
it was easily in the top 5. I can't say that Zelazny has done no
wrong, but in my opinion, Tolkien doesn't hold a candle to him,
credentials or no. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and
while Tolkien's prose may be more elegant than Zelazny's, Zelazny's
stories are much more satisfying.

"Everyone has a right to hold my own opinion"

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz (jagardner)
Subject: Re: Hear, Hear!
Date: 13 Mar 85 19:13:43 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) quotes:
>"What could be more sexist than altering the conventions of
>the language on purely sexual considerations?"
>
>                      -- Gene Wolfe

A good point in many instances, but there are exceptions.  I think
Samuel R. Delaney's new novel "Stars in my Pockets Like Grains of
Sand" contains a highly enlightening alteration in the conventions
of English that is based on purely sexual considerations.

On many planets of Delaney's universe, one refers to all citizens
(sentient beings) as "she" or "her", regardless of gender.
Furthermore, these people are all called "women" (though they can be
female women or male women if gender is important for some reason).
The words "he", "him", and "man" are used to refer to citizens by
whom the speaker is sexually aroused; therefore the sexual
distinction is only made when you are feeling your own sexuality.
Again, a man in this sense can be either female or male depending on
your sexual preferences.  People are quite free to switch from shes
to hes (when sexual feelings stir) and from hes to shes (when sexual
feelings die down one way or another).

At first this just seems like an artificial device to mess up the
reader's mind.  However, halfway through the story I finally figured
out what (I think) Delaney was trying to illustrate.  Whenever a new
character is introduced into the story, the character is
automatically a woman and "she".  At first, the reader believes all
these people are female, but that's not true -- they're just neutral
people and their sexuality is of no interest to the story's narrator
(there are one or two "men" who ARE of interest to the narrator, but
that's another problem).  As you read, you realize that some of
these "women" are male and some are female AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH
IS WHICH.  The story's narrator doesn't care, but the reader does
(of course I am only describing my personal reaction).  I think this
demonstrates how deeply we feel the need to differentiate between
the sexes.  We want to know if someone is male or female even when
that has no relevance to that person's actions or outlook.
Delaney's linguistic conventions made this mental peculiarity
obvious in a way that would be difficult with normal language.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

P.S. By the way, I'm with Gene Wolfe and Steven Brust on playing
with conventions when you don't have a special point to make in the
way Delaney makes it.  You can he or she or (s)he your writing into
incomprehensibility if you aren't careful.

------------------------------

From: timeinc!dwight@topaz (Dwight Ernest)
Subject: Re: Sexual differentiation in recent science fiction
Date: 14 Mar 85 22:29:18 GMT

I, too, was confused about the gender of the characters in Ursula K.
LeGuin's famous "The Left Hand of Darkness" when I first read it in
1973... I desperately wanted to know which gender the two major
protagonists were members of. Then it dawned on me (as it apparently
did on you, too, Jim) that this was exactly what the novel was about
and that LeGuin intended us to think about this need to connect
characters with gender. I certainly did, and it was the dawning of
what became a more mature anti-sexist consciousness later (I hope).

Incidentally, if you can get your hands on "The Left Hand of
Darkness" by LeGuinn, by all means don't pass it up.

------------------------------

From: orca!andrew@topaz (Andrew Klossner)
Subject: Re: The Forbin Project
Date: 15 Mar 85 07:23:38 GMT

>"Glad that somebody finally mentioned "Colossus, the Forbin
>Project." This film, which was released originally as just "The
>Forbin Project" didn't do well in the theaters, primarily because
>the movie going public couldn't seem to relate to computers in 1971
>(when the movie was made) like they would now.  The movie was
>relatively low-key, without any shoot-'em-ups or other flashy
>gimmicks and was received well by everybody I knew who knew
>anything about computers."

Well ... almost everybody.  I saw it with a group of college frosh
hackers.  When we saw the Colossus machine room, the "willing
suspension of disbelief" was dissolved in a pool of laughter.  The
console for Colossus was made up of several (identical) front panels
from IBM 1620's.

Each such panel had a bright red switch labeled "in emergency,
PULL".  On a 1620, indeed on every IBM computer I've seen, this
switch drops a short across the main power input to bring the system
down very quickly.  (This once saved a person from serious injury
when their necktie got caught in a line printer.)  The second half
of the movie has the main characters concerned with finding a way to
turn off Colossus, but they ignore these obvious switches.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)       [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz
Subject: "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn"
Date: 15 Mar 85 23:03:10 GMT

I just saw this at Filmex (the Los Ageles International Film
Exposition, for those who haven't been listening).  The filmmakers
requested that no reviews be printed, as the film won't be out for
about six months.  I will include a few brief comments.  The film is
very good, in the fantasy/ adventure mold.  It is made by Will
Vinton, the famous animator who works in clay, using a process
called Claymation.  Basically, this means sculpting figures out of
clay and then animating them.  Vinton has done some excellent work
in shorts.  Three and 1/2 years work by 25 animators using over two
tons of clay has produced an excellent feature film, as well.  Watch
for previews, particularly in the Pacific Northwest area, where
Vinton is based.

Vinton has also recently done some effects work for Walter Murch's
"Return to Oz".  Vinton did some Claymation which turned rocks into
trolls.  It's supposed to be very effective.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz.ARPA (Mark Brader)
Subject: Computer hardware in movies
Date: 18 Mar 85 08:48:32 GMT

> When we saw the Colossus machine room, the "willing suspension of
> disbelief" was dissolved in a pool of laughter.  The console for
> Colossus was made up of several (identical) front panels from IBM
> 1620's.

Actually, this sounds more realistic than a lot of Hollywood
computers.  (I wonder if the designers ever look at the studios' own
computers...)

I was rather amused while watching WarGames to notice the design of
the "WOPR" CPU.  I mean, this was supposed to be a big, powerful
computer...  a "whopper", in fact.  And they even resisted the
temptation to hang flashing lights all over it (probably because
they would have distracted from the pretty graphic displays).  So
how did they convey the idea that it was big and powerful?

Why, they simply shaped it like a diesel locomotive body.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 85 11:00 EST
From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Frustration!

OK, so I saw a few clips from the SF/detective/rock&roll spoof
"J-Men Forever" a few years ago and said to myself "that's really
funny - I've got to see that movie".  Well last week I finally had
my chance - the USA cable network was showing J-Men Forever, the
whole movie.  So I turned it on and it was great - until our cable
company bit the big one half an hour into it!  So after waiting two
years, I only got to see the beginning.

Anyway, I'm putting out this last desperate appeal in the hopes that
someone somewhere out there has a VHS tape of this movie (I've
already tried locally) which I could borrow and return.  Name your
price!

"Any sufficiently advanced bibliography is indistinguishable from the
opinions of my employer."

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: Mon 18 Mar 1985 14:10:28 EST
From: <KELNER@LL.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who

  An English friend of mine would like to add his 'tuppence' to the
discussion of DR. Who.
 I've included his message below:

   I was prompted to write to the Newsletter by the recent
correspondence about the best/worst etc.  of Dr.  Who's companions.
Since I have been watching the show since it started in the early
Sixties, I suppose I qualify as somewhat of a fanatic, but here are
my thoughts anyway.

   The shows starring the first two Doctors (William Hartnell and
Patrick Troughton) have never been shown in the U.S.A., as far as I
can tell, so I won't try and drag out my fading memories of the
companions of these Dr.s - I'll confine my suggestions to the
companions of Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and Peter Davison.

Most Useful to the Dr:- Leela
  The combination of the Dr's intelligence with her cunning and
instincts was a formidable team.  She also seemed to be the only one
in the show with enough sense to pick up a weapon from a fallen
enemy and use it.

Most Likeable as a Person:- Jo Grant
  This is of course rather subjective, but she always seemed to me
the friendliest of all the companions.  Jon Pertwee's Dr.  seemed to
think so too, he's almost in tears at the end of 'The Green Death'
when she leaves him to run up the Amazon and pick mushrooms(?).
Surely this has to be the saddest leave-taking of all, with Pertwee
driving into the sunset with only his vintage car 'Bessie' left to
talk to...

Most Natural:- Sarah Jane Smith
  By this, I mean that she seemed to have the same reactions to the
strange and dangerous events around her as an ordinary Earthling
might have.  Because of this she could take the part of the viewer,
who could imagine him or herself in a similar situation thinking or
doing the same thing.  She should also get a vote for longevity - I
think she was the longest-serving companion, although I can't be
sure.

Nastiest:- Turlough
  No argument here, this character was thoroughly unpleasant - I
kept hoping he would get skewered or dismembered or something
equally painful.  This may be a tribute to the acting capabilities
of Mark Strickson, but having a traitor in the Tardis was an
experiment I hope the BBC will not repeat (assuming they continue
the show - have you all written your letters of protest yet ?).

   Most of the others were quite capable in their own way, but the
ones above really stand out in my mind.

   On a separate topic, what is it about Peter Davison's Dr.  that
people seem to dislike?  I've read lots of comments about the BBC's
alleged mistake in hiring him, but I thought he did a fairly good
job.

I suspect that a lot of the problem is that many people had only
seen Tom Baker until then.  Tom served so long (and ably) in the
role that I think viewers thought any replacement had to replicate
his mannerisms to be a convincing Dr Who - not the case of course.
He also had no really interesting companions, as you can see from my
list above.  All in all, a bad rap, I think.

                               Mike Jordan

  All I can add to this is:
 1) I have high hopes for Peri. I only saw her in one show though,
      so I'll have to wait and see.
 2) I think Peter Davison was very good. The first show was a bit
      weak, but he rapidly became quite good.
         Bob Kelner (KELNER at LL)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 04:01 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: The Prisoner

Well you can all believe whatever you like about this.  (McGoohan's
intent I think).  However you shouldn't take it all too literally.
How can you when there are so many contradictions in the series; an
example will suffice.  No 6 escapes twice from the village.  The
first time circumstances indicate that the village is situated
somewhere in the Baltic, the second time it is off the north-west
coast of Africa.  And how could anyone take the final epsiode
literally?

Anyway - John Drake seemed to work for the CIA or some such
organization - the opening credits definitely show him against a US
city somewhere (they're being repeated in the UK right now) and his
US accent is much more pronounced - whereas in the Prisoner No 6
obviously works/worked for the British.

It occurs to me that the reference to Drake in the penultimate
episode with Leo McKern is probably a joke by McGoohan - quite
possibly at Markstein's expense - one gets the impression there was
no love lost between the two.

Who is Number 1?

          deryk.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Mar 85 1001-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #102
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Henderson &
                       Varley (2 msgs) & Vinge & Zelazny,
               Films - Brainstorm & Godzilla,
               Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hpfcms!mpm@topaz.ARPA (mpm)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 13 Mar 85 21:58:00 GMT

     I have a lot of Piers Anthony's books, especially the earlier
work.  There are several books of his not mentioned here.  I
recommend one in particular - Prosthro Plus - as one of the funniest
SF novels I've ever read.
     This is the tale of an earthman kidnapped by aliens to take
care of "dental" problems.  (It turns out that humans are mere
chattels in the eyes of galactic society, since mankind has not
qualified for membership in the galactic civilization.)  There is a
lot of tongue-in-cheek humor, with enough underlying truth to grab
you.
     The story is very much like a lot of Gordon Dickson's work -
where one man (or a small group) is able to make a BIG difference in
a situation involving (supposedly) insurmountable odds.  Good stuff.
(Now that I think about it, a lot of Keith Laumer's work falls in
the same category.)  The end result - our puny earthman ends up
running the show.
     I think the book is out of print.  The publisher is (was)
Berkley with a publication date in the early 1970's.  I found a copy
at a used book store.  Check it out.  It's worth the effort to find
it.
        -- Mike "and I thought he was little known" McCarthy
           (hplabs!hpfcla!hpfcms!) mpm

P.S.  The books "Chthon" and "Phthor" (I think that's the spelling)
were intriguing.  I haven't read them for some time, but I think
they are a little rough; they apparently come from Anthony's early
years of writing.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 02:05:35-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Piers Anthony

> From: othervax!psal@topaz     (C.Thomas Weinbaum von Waldenhal)
> "SOS THE ROPE", origionaly serialized in F&SF, won
> him his first hugo..."

Ah, sorry to break this to you, but SOS THE ROPE not only didn't win
a Hugo Award, but (a) it wasn't even nominated for one, and (b)
Piers Anthony hasn't won a Hugo for *anything*.

The only thing that SOS won was a monetary prize co-sponsored by
F&SF and Pyramid Books (who published the first book edition).

BTW, in all the discussion about Anthony's books, no one's mentioned
PROSTHO PLUS, RACE AGAINST TIME, TRIPLE DETENTE, THE E.S.P. WORM and
THE RING (both written with Robert E. Margroff), and last but not
least, the Kung Fu series that he wrote with Roberto Fuentes
featuring Jason Striker, Master of the Martial Arts (of which at
least 3 have a fantasy element).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 03:20:50-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Zenna Henderson

> From: mab@aids-unix (Mike Brzustowicz)
> I recommend the two books about the people-- "Pilgrimage" and "The
> People--No Different Flesh".  There was also a short story in
> "Holding Wonder" which might have been a People story--it's been
> so long since I've read it, but it read to me then (>10 yrs ago)
> as a possibility for "The Bright Beginning"--the start of the
> People's racial memory.
>
> Aside from these three books, and a fourth, called "The Anything
> Box" (All of which are short story collections, the first two
> having a "Meta-story" woven around them [in the fashion of Susan
> Calvin narration in "i robot"]), I don't know of any other books
> by her.  Has anyone else heard of any?

Nope, that's it, unfortunately. One interesting note, though, is
that if you have those four books, you have almost her entire
output. That I've been able to determine, she's only had 7 other
stories published, all but two in F&SF. They are:

[In F&SF] "That Boy" (11/71); "Thrumthing and Out" (10/72);
          "Katie-Mary's Trip" (1/75); "The First Stroke" (10/77);
          "Tell Us a Story" (10/80)

[Elsewhere] "Before the Fact" (UNIVERSE SF, 1/55); "There Was a
          Garden" (CASSANDRA RISING, ed. by Alice Laurance, 1978)

"Katie-Mary's Trip" and "Tell Us a Story" are both People stories,
as is "The Idelible Kind" in HOLDING WONDER. Other than these three,
all of the People stories are in PILGRIMAGE and NO DIFFERENT FLESH.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: ihu1g!rls@topaz.ARPA (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Re: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone?
Date: 18 Mar 85 13:48:45 GMT

>  But...does anyone have any other comments on either 'Millenium'
>or anything else by Varley?  What of the 'Titan' (etc etc - can't
>think of the titles of the other books) and so on series?  I
>thought they were a good read, but as you got further along in the
>series it got weaker and weaker...

The full series is "Titan", "Wizard" and "Demon".  It is always
interesting to read a series of books where the author kills off a
well developed main character in an early book in the series and
runs out of ways to expand later and conveniently brings the dead
back to life.  Too bad Varley had to come down to the level of Frank
Herbert's "Dune" sequels to keep the third book going.

                                        Rick Schieve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 23:33:23 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: John Varley

I didn't much care for the Titan series either, and found it
particularly disappointing since I liked his previous novel, "The
Ophiuchi Hotline", so much.  It reminded me rather of Bester's
better novels.  I've also liked almost all of Varley's short
stories, even though I'm not a big fan of the form.  I haven't read
"Millenium", having been put off Varley by "Titan", et al.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: lzmi!psc@topaz.ARPA (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Snow Queen/World's End
Date: 16 Mar 85 21:36:01 GMT

> Snow Queen is kaleidoscopic, and I mean that literally as well as
> colloquially. The plot lines twist and turn and settle into new
> patterns, but they all connect subtly to the other lines until
> they meat at the end. Well done, and enjoyable.

I thought SNOW QUEEN was kaleidoscopic, too:  pretty and colorful,
> but not very interesting after a while.  The characters were tissue
paper (I.E., too thin to be cardboard), the interactions and plot
predictable.

         (*MILD SPOILER OF A BAD AND NONESSENTIAL SCENE *)

One scene in particular bothered me a *lot*.  A kid gets cornered in
an alley by a bunch of uglies with knives, who threaten to carve him
up.  They approach; end of chapter.  Next chapter, we have a cop
walking his beat.  He wanders around for a while.  About halfway
through the chapter, he hears a struggle in an alley.  He runs into
it, in time to stop the uglies from touching their knives to the
kid.  This is literary cheating!  That unannounced flashback and
"don't worry, the kid *does* get rescued in the nick of time"
garbage really hurt the book for me.  It wasn't the only time it
happened, either.

                 (*END OF SPOILER - RESUME SPEED*)

Perhaps one of my problems is that I've come to expect so much of
Vinge.  I read her Analog stories and liked them a lot.  SNOW QUEEN
was a real let down, to my mind, the worst piece of writing she's
ever done.  (The best were two novellas: "Tin Soldier", her first
sale, and "Fire storm", a flawed but brilliant story man/machine
symbiosis, second only to Verner Vinge's "True Names" as the
greatest SF story of all time about computers.  Damn, what a book
*that* would be!)

> I wish I could say the same for World's End. A novel (:-)
> approach, but poorly done in comparison to Heart of Darkness,
> which it emulates (see the opening quotes). Maybe I wouldn't be so
> critical if it didn't aspire so high...
>       glenn kapetansky ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek

I, on the other hand, wasn't expecting WORLD'S END to be Conrad; I
was expecting it to be another SNOW QUEEN.  I was pleasantly
surprised.  Admittedly, the story is a bit muddy, the plot lost
among the vivid mental scenes.  But this is good stuff: original
ideas, interesting characters (not great but not stereotypes), and
Vinge's razor sharp writing style.

        -Paul S. R. Chisholm
        ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc
        ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!cpf@topaz.ARPA (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Lord of Light (more)
Date: 17 Mar 85 19:59:08 GMT

I agree that The Lord of the Rings is the best 20th century fiction
that I have read.  I also agree that Lord of Light is the best
science fiction story that I have read.  Finally, in response to the
person who asked about the order of chapters, if in medias res is
good enough for Homer, it is good enough for Zelazny.

[If they do get usenet on satelite, does that mean we will *all* be
able to make high-frequency prayers?]

Courtenay Footman                       arpa:   cpf@lnsvax
Newman Lab. of Nuclear Studies          usenet: cornell!lnsvax!cpf
Cornell University

------------------------------

From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM)
Date: 18 Mar 85 23:45:58 GMT

The device in Brainstorm did have a number of interesting
possibilities.  However, seeing the after-death experience is not
one of them, so the discussion as it stands is moot.  There would be
no way for the device to pick up information once brain-death
occurred.  In the movie, it just blithely continues to record the
experiences of her soul.  No doubt this was made possible by new
astral plane technology they didn't bother to tell us about.  Right.

Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking
ARPA:   Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K    uucp:   seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:     74176,1360      audio:  shout "Hey, Tim!"

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.ARPA (leeper)
Subject: GODZILLA (1984)
Date: 18 Mar 85 20:30:38 GMT

                              GODZILLA
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Way back in the early Fifties, Toho Pictures of Japan made a
serious monster film inspired by BEAST FROM 20,000 FATHOMS.  The
film was called GOJIRA (pronounced GO-jee-RA) and was reportedly
about how the Americans used a nuclear bomb to try to kill a
centuries-old dragon or dinosaur that was worshiped by the natives
of a local island.  The enraged and now radioactive monster vented
his wrath on Tokyo.  The film became an allegory of the closing days
of World War II.  Japan was being hit by something incomprehensively
powerful of unknown origin that just totally wiped out any place it
appeared.  Finally a courageous Japanese scientist uses his own
powerful weapon against Gojira, but only after he has taken
safeguards to be sure his force is never used against humans (are
you listening, American nuclear scientists?).  The film was
extensively re-edited to be much less anti- American, scenes with
American actor Raymond Burr were added, and the film was released in
the U.S. as GODZILLA, KING OF THE MONSTERS.  The film became an
international success and spawned a whole series of films with
Gojira/Godzilla and eventually created a whole subgenre, the
Japanese monster movie.
     Of Toho's followups to GODZILLA none had much real quality, but
some were fun on a junior high school level of complexity.  Most
notably, GODZILLA VS. THE THING had a certain charm.  At the end of
the next film, GHIDRAH, THE THREE-HEADED MONSTER Godzilla turns into
a good guy and after that the films became more and more silly and
childish.  They maintained a small audience for a decade or so, but
they eventually died out.  Presumably the executives at Toho began
to lament their own degradation of their monster.  They have just
finished making a film tentatively to be called either GODZILLA or
RETURN OF GODZILLA.  It is another sequel to the original GODZILLA,
KING OF THE MONSTERS, but to only that film.
     As the film begins there has been one and only one appearance
of Godzilla, and that was some thirty years earlier.  A second
monster of the same species rises out of a volcano to threaten Japan
and to spark an international nuclear incident.
     It had been rumored that Toho Pictures had been working on a
Godzilla film that would employ stop-motion technology.  If, in
fact, this is the film that resulted, it is something of a
disappointment.  This Godzilla is another "man-in-suitosaurus," to
use Don Glut's term.  But at least the producers have returned to an
earlier and less cute visualization of the creature.  This Godzilla
looks much like the one in the first Godzilla films with a face like
a crumpled sheet of newspaper.  The camera uses low-angle camera
shots effectively to make the beast look impressively large, a
technique used in the first films and not again since.  The special
effects of the monster walking through Tokyo at night look much like
a similar effect in the 1976 KING KONG.
     The new Godzilla film (and it isn't dubbed in English yet--I
saw it in Japanese with a narrator explaining what was going on) is
not a very good film on any sort of absolute scale; I guess I have
never seen a Japanese science fiction film that was.  But for those
of us who grew up with hokey Godzilla films, it has considerable
nostalgia value.  The quality is not up to that of the 1976 KING
KONG, so expect very little, but if you liked the old Toho science
fiction films in their best years, it might be worth watching for.
It was a pleasure to see, but I cannot fairly give the 1984 version
of GODZILLA anything better than a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale for fear
that someone might see the film and realize what rotten taste I
really have.

------------------------------

From: moncol!john@topaz.ARPA (John Ruschmeyer)
Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions
Date: 18 Mar 85 16:59:20 GMT

>From: Alderson@Score
>>Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA writes re:  Dr. Who companions
>>By far, my favorite is Leela.  ...  Also, he seemed more upset
>>about her departure than that of any other companion.
>
>Baker-Who seemed more upset over Leela's leaving than any other of
>HIS companions, yes, but I'd say offhand--strike that, I've thought
>about this a bit: I'd say that Pertwee-Who's reaction to Jo Grant's
>marriage was much more upset, even to being teary.  I always
>thought that the wonderful old goat had a romantic streak that
>ought to be brought out more.

I really think the Doctor took Leela's (and K9 m1's) departure in
stride.  After all, he immediately put himself to work on K9 mk2.

I'd say he was the most upset after departing from Romana. It was
this departure that set the tone for "Logopolis".

To be fair, I have not yet seen the Jo Grant departure (ask me in a
few weeks). I don't think, however, that we should forget Nyssa's
departure and Adric's final sacrifice (from the Davison era).

Name:           John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:        Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:          (201) 222-6600 x366
UUCP:           ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john
                ...!princeton!moncol!john
                ...!pesnta!moncol!john

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Mar 85 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #103
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Mar 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & LeGuin & Leinster & Simak &
                   Tolkien & Zelazny & Solar Sailing,
           Films - Brainstorm (3 msgs),
           Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: orca!andrew@topaz.arpa (Andrew Klossner)
Subject: Re: Yet another Xanth novel
Date: 17 Mar 85 21:04:33 GMT

>"Yes folks, Xanth #8 has hit the bookstores already.  This ones is
>called "The Crewel Lye" (the cruel lie) and features Jordan the
>ghost as the central character.  I refuse to buy it; I stopped
>buying after the 6th.  I'll just wait for the public libraries to
>get it, but meanwhile if any of you die-hard Xanth fans out there
>would like to tell me what you think of it, just mail me; I'll be
>gald to hear from you."

"Crewel Lye" is as good as many of the Xanth novels, and better than
the last couple.  But it's certainly not more than a "light read".

>"BTW, does anyone find the Xanth novels sexist? I do."

In this respect, "Crewel Lye" has a refreshing twist.  Anthony
introduces one of his biggest, dumbest, "all-male" heroes yet, then
brings on another luscious female ... then, through the evil magic
of a foe, they switch bodies and start raising their
consciousnesses.  I liked it.

On the other hand, my wife finds it to be offensively sexist.  So if
the earlier Xanth books really bothered you, this one probably will,
too.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)       [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 85 09:53 PST
From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: LE GUIN'S LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS

I must put in my two cents here, in response to the many who have
recommended TLHD. I disagree. I thought the book was terrible. I
read it along time ago, so I can't give any details other than a
general dislike for the book.

Perhaps I need to try it again, though I don't think I will get
around to it.

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 85 05:11:18 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: In defense of Murray Leinster
From: Cooper.SBDERX@XEROX.ARPA

Just so the supporters outnumber the opposition, I'll throw in my
two-cents worth. I have enjoyed all I have read of Leinster's work,
although I am also finding it hard to get here in the UK.

"The Best of Murray Leinster", although now out of print, is still
available in some stores, at least over here, and it comes here from
the US. Worth reading, though, if you can find them, are "The Greks
Bring Gifts" and "The Wailing Asteroid".

What hope is there for someone who classes both Leinster and Herbert
as schlock?!

        Martin.

------------------------------

From: amd!tc@topaz.arpa (Tom Crawford)
Subject: Clifford D. Simak
Date: 19 Mar 85 15:17:09 GMT

One of my favorite authors is Clifford D. Simak and one of my
favorite books by him is -Way Station-.  One of the reasons I like
Simak is because he writes good prose:

        This was the Earth, he thought-a planet made for Man.  But
not for Man alone, for it was as well a planet for the fox and owl
and weasel, for the snake, the katydid, the fish, for all the other
teeming life that filled the air and earth and water.  And not for
these natives alone, but for other beings that called other earths
their home, other planets that far light-years distant were
basically the same as Earth.  For Ulysses and the Hazers and all the
rest of them who could live upon this planet, if need be, if they
wished, with no discomfort and no artificial aids.

                                Tom Crawford

------------------------------

To: HERMAN%UMDB.Bitnet@wiscvm.arpa (Joe Herman @ Merryland)
Subject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkein
Date: 19 Mar 85 21:49:45 PST (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> Hello.  I read your article in SF-Lovers Digest about how J.R.R.
> was the best English language SF author in the 20th century.  In
> the article you stated that he was fairly prolific.  I have only
> been able to find The Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, Farmer Giles of
> Ham, and Of Tree and Leaf.
>
> Do you know of any other essays, short stories, novels that he
> had written?
>                                     Joe

    Joe,

    I am sending this both to you and the net, both because I think
other people might be interested, and because I have grave doubts
about whether our mailer will succeed in getting this to your
address.

    Please allow me to clarify a little: I did not call Tolkien the
best SF author (in any language or century), both because his
fictional works are clearly fantasy, not science-fiction or anywhere
near it, and because I was not attempting to classify him as an
author so much as to defend the name of The Lord of the Rings (and,
of course, because stating such a thing as if it were a demonstrable
fact, rather than an impression, however powerful, would be
ridiculous).

    However, never in all my readings have I encountered anything
that even approaches The Lord of the Rings in stature, even the
things I've read and re-read with undiminished pleasure.  Its
impression on me is so strong that I'll risk sticking my neck out
and calling it "the best" with no more qualification than a
"probably".  Which, as a subsequent message rightly pointed out, is
most unwise practice.

    Some fictional works other than the ones you listed:

    - The Silmarillion (posthumous; completed and edited by
          Tolkien's son.  The histories, broadly told in the fashion
          of heroic ballad, of the First and Second Ages of Middle
          Earth.  Deals with many things that "The Hobbit" and "The
          Lord of the Rings" refer to from the Elder Days)
    - Unfinished Tails
          (Further collected notes, on both the Elder Days and the
          War of the Rings.  Highly informative; excellent reading)
    - The Road Goes Ever On and On
          (poetry from Middle Earth, including Tolkien's analyses of
          some Elvish poetry.  I know this from references in other
          works; I have yet to read it myself.)
    - The Adventures of Tom Bombadil
          (collected poems from the Shire, with a certain emphasis
          on those of Bilbo and Frodo.  Bilbo's epic poem "Errantry"
          is here, as well as Frodo's "The Sea Bell", and the rather
          unsettling "the Mewlips")
    - Leaf by Niggle
          (a curious story about a shy and introverted artist
          obsessed with the painting of a tree.  Unrelated to Middle
          Earth).

    His nonfiction includes at least one essay "On Writing Faerie
Stories" (or something similar: I forget the exact title) on the
subject of writing fantasy; since he held a chair in English at
Oxford University, his duties required a great deal of writing; and
he did a considerable amount of translation from Middle English
(which is amazingly distant from Modern English).

    There are also criticisms and analyses of Tolkien available.
"Behind the Lord of the Rings," by Lin Carter, is the primary one
that comes to my mind.  And for cross-referenced glossaries of the
myriad names and places of Middle Earth, see Robert Forster's "Guide
to Middle Earth", and "A Tolkien Companion", whose author I'm
ashamed to say I've forgotten.

    One other point: when I said "prolific", I did not mean in the
sense of being a veritable book factory.  I was thinking rather of
Tolkien's ability to pursue his explorations of the intertwined
histories of Middle Earth, and its languages and cultures, in
seemingly unending depth and detail along so many different paths,
while never losing the beauty of the epic.  Those explorations have
produced the works I listed above: not many, by some standards, but
great by almost any.  This unceasing power in his writing is what I
meant by "prolific".
                                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light
Date: 15 Mar 85 16:56:45 GMT

> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin    )
> But can you justify the chapter numbering (4 1 2 3 5 ...) ?

What need justification?  This is nothing new; merely used better
than most writers use it.  The technique is called "framing," and
conveyed the point of the story quite well.  He could have made the
first chapter a prologue and the last an epilogue, but why bother?
The point is that the logical progression of the tale does not take
place temporally.  By arranging it this way, the reader is taken
through an experience that is set up by the first chapter to give
context, and leads to the last chapter with the inevitability of a
Beethoven symphony.

So there.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing stories
Date: 19 Mar 85 08:46:29 GMT

>This is also in the Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology "The Seven
>Deadly Sins of Science Fiction".  "Sail 25" is the only story I've
>read for quite some time where something called a "computer" can be
>put out of action by a damaged bearing...
>Mark Brader

OK. Why don't you take a few shots at the bearing on your main
system disk someday and see how long you can keep the system up.
Admittedly this is more likely to cause a total head crash than the
problem described in the story (direct quote: " 'The bearings which
suspend the data-separation disks have broken. The shaft has several
millimeters play and as a result there is total confusion in the
data presented to the analyzer.' "), but when you think about the
rpm's involved in disk drives, it's not surprising that a damaged
bearing could produce a large amount of grief. Now as to how Captain
Belt was able to open up the drive, slip the bearings out, put
everything back together, and realign the system without any of the
trainee crew noticing, that's a bit tougher...

                              Bill Laubenheimer
                              UC-Berkeley Computer Science
                              ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 08:45 PST
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: BRAINSTORM

After reading all the articles on BRAINSTORM, I decided to rent a
video tape of it and watch it again,(the first time being in a
theater). I found that of all the aspects presented, the
life-at-death idea to be the most intriguing.  Let me explain why.
BRAINSTORM,while a good movie was, in my opinion, one step away from
being a gadget movie i.e. man makes machine man abuses machine.
However, good story telling, be it sci fi or whatever centers on
relationships between people and how those relationships affect
their lives. What more intimate relationship can one have than to
actually FEEL another's thoughts?  How much more intimate can you
get than to witness a persons death from their side of the fence,
so to speak I find that somewhat more interesting than being hooked
up to a chimp and finding out they hate bananas. But I think I've
made my point.

Live Long And Prosper

Wendel

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: Re: Chimpanzees vs Life after Death
Date: 20 Mar 85 00:35:32 GMT

You may *expect* to find out about life after death, but you may
find out it means you get reincarnated as a chimpanzee.

But, of course, I *know* this is all a bunch of nonsense: it's well
known that when you die your soul goes up on the roof and you can't
get it down.  (That's "frisbee", not "chimpanzee".)

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 10:23:14 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Brainstorm

The notion that the "life-after-death" wouldn't be recorded as
Lillian was dead already misses the point.  Those scenes are almost
classic "out-of-the-body" experiences as reported by many who have
suffered heart stoppage or some other close-to-death trauma and then
been revived.  Notice the way that the tape ends as seen by Michael
Brace; the conventional view of heaven suddenly blurs and goes dark.
This might well be the point at which Lillian actually dies, and her
experiences (if any) are no longer recorded.

I loved this movie.  One wonders what it would have been like under
more favorable editing conditions, or if Trumbull had been allowed
to use Showscan as he wanted to.

Now, would anybody like to come up with a bibliography for
Brainstorm?  The experience-recording stories I can remember are:

Arthur C. Clarke: THE LION OF COMARRE, THE CITY AND THE STARS, and a
story I can't remember the title of in TALES FROM THE WHITE HART.

John Varley: the Eight Worlds stories, and Wizard/Demon.

Robert Silverberg: the framing story for MAJIPOOR CHRONICLES.

I'm sure there are dozens more.

        - Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Mar 85 12:45:47-EST
From: Elizabeth Willey <ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Tom(cat) Baker's marriages

I was under the impression that he was married to Louise Jameson.
Tsk, tsk.  As bad as Captain Kirk, isn't he...

My favorite Dr. Who episode has never been made, although I thought
one episode came close. It's Dr. Who meets the Electronic Teller
Machine.  The Doctor tries to use his American Express card ("Don't
leave home without it", right?  If Ford Prefect can have one, why
not the Doctor?)  to get money, which he seems not always to have
when he needs some, from a 24-hour-banking machine in a mall
somewhere.  He goes into the little alcove where the machine is.  He
inserts the card.  He taps out his code number.  The machine blinks
a few times, then accepts the number; he taps out the amount of
money he needs---say ten pounds--- and the screen tells him "Please
wait.  Your transaction is being processed.".  He waits.  Behind
him, slowly and silently, an everything-proof transparent barrier
slides down, sealing him in.  On the other side, a Dalek rolls up,
accompanied by the Black Guardian (laughing evilly).  Behind them,
more Daleks roll by, shooting everthing in sight.  The Doctor sees
nothing.  He grows impatient, hits the query button *queep* and is
politely asked again to wait, his transaction is being
processed...He waits.  More Daleks...more Daleks...shoppers dying
horribly...the Doctor is still waiting for his ten pounds...and
waiting...and waiting...*queep* Please wait, your transaction is
being processed...

                                *-------Eliz.

Did I say that?  I must have been out of my mind...!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 14:12 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who

Alastair (Milne) is right...it IS Peter Davison rather than
Davidson!  We (Central New york) had been in the Tom Baker loop for
at least two years...this year (last 6 months +/-) we have been
treated to the Peter Davison "movies".  The current membership drive
for WCNY says they (WCNY) have bought the Pertwee episodes for $25K
(!), I am looking forward to seeing those for the first time!
    It has taken me awhile to get used to Davison as the Doctor, but
I was always familiar with his Tristan character--which helped, I
think.  My son still prefers Tom Baker, but since he is only 6 with
a 1930 bedtime, he rarely gets to see the "All Creatures Great and
Small" stories.
                                  Roz

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions
Date: 19 Mar 85 12:50:13 GMT

Actually, the most touching departure of a companion that I've seen
was when Susan remained on Earth with her freedom fighter in "The
Dalek Invasion of Earth."  Susan obviously loved her freedom fighter
(whose name has slipped my memory), The Doctor realized that, went
into the TARDIS with Ian and Barbara on a pretense, closed and
locked the doors, explained to Susan why he did that, and left.
Extremely touching.

James C Armstrong, Jnr.
{ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Mar 85 0954-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Mar 85 0954-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #104
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Mar 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:

         Books - McKinley & Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Varley &
                 Van Vogt,
         Films - Brainstorm & The Adventures of Mark Twain,
         Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & V (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot...
Date: 15 Mar 85 17:55:56 GMT

In an earlier submission about first novels and another one about
women writers, I somehow forgot to mention Robin McKinley.  I don't
know how I managed.  Her first novel, BEAUTY, is outstanding by any
standards.  Her most recent novel, THE HERO AND THE CROWN, won the
Newberry Award, which it richly deserved.  Everything she has
written is wonderful.  I still don't know how I could have forgotten
her.  Maybe because I don't think of "women writers," I just think
of "writers," and her first novel in no way read like a first novel.

In any case, she is on my list of todays ten best english language
writers.  For those who are interested, the total list (not really
in order) consists of: Roger Zelazny, Robin McKinley, Robert B.
Parker, Judith Martin (aka Miss Manners), Pamela Dean, Will
Shetterly, Jane Yolan, Gene Wolfe, and John M. Ford.  I'm basing
this mostly on ability to use the language and consistancy.  The
list is also subject to change without notice, and, in any case, is
pretty meaningless.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: milford!bill@topaz.arpa (bill)
Subject: Qwib-qwib: A review of Bezerker Base
Date: 19 Mar 85 17:42:18 GMT

I just finished Saberhagen's anthology/novel "Berzerker Base". A
berzerker, for those who haven't bumped into them,they are machines
programmed to seek out sentient life and destroy it (think of the
'planet eater' in one of the more memorable Startrek shows) but
typically Saberhagen made them more comic-book-like, one story had
the machine playing chess against the human to wear him down.
Anyway, "Bezerker Base" has stories by sharp people like Niven,
Anderson, Bryant, and Saberhagen tries to mold them into one large
berzerker novel. The stories are very much above-average but have
been published elsewhere and Saberhagen's superstructure doesn't add
very much. End of the review per se.

More interesting is something common to three of the stories: The
'traditional' bezerker story has humans endangered by these
invincable monomaniac machines but "man being the son-of-a-bitch
that he is, always wins"; so the stories have the comic-book style
alluded to above. Once again one can think of many Startrek episodes
sharing this cliche.  In the stories by Zelazny, Anderson, and Niven
there is a different attitude toward computers (still many technical
errors, the notion of berzerkers as being deadly because they're
'von Neumann machines' stands out), in that machines ( anti-bezerker
bezerkers) become the heroes of the stories. First the "qwib-qwib"
made by a long lost civilization to defeat the bezerkers is found.
Then a group of humans capture a bezerker to reprogram it to destroy
other bezerkers. Lastly the Niven story has a 'Remora program' to
attach itself to the bezerker software and once again reprogram the
bezerkers against themselves.

I'm concerned here about the effect on the unconscious popular
mythology concerning machines and computers in particular.  I'm sure
none of the authors had any sinister motives along these lines, I'm
more interested in an emerging Jungian archetype.

There seems to be a definite change of direction here in the
attitude toward machines. Before the message in the bezerker stories
was to distrust the computer, and this message was available to the
human psyche from other directions -- the 'Colossus' movie springs
to mind. A very real 'anti-technological' stance of "destroy these
evil machines while we still can"; also there is the comic-book
attitude noted above: "man being the unconquerable son-of...."

The new message might be progressive: "computers are an extension of
ourselves and permit us to do things humanly impossible", but
perhaps there might be a more subtle message coming into the human
psyche: "You are powerless against these machines, so make the
adaptation to the friendliest ones around, THEY are your only hope"
One can feel this message in Reagan's Starwars defense: "man is
totally powerless against weapons, so make new, stronger ones to
protect us automatically."

In religious terms, the direction has changed from "the machine as
self-appointed deity" to "the machine as the true messiah".  While
moving away from a bad mythology of "machine as evil unknown" is
there an equally bad mythology emerging of "machine as benign
despot?"  Have these mythological stances emerged elsewhere in the
culture?  The first definitely has throughout the fifties and
sixties; with Lukas' SW we have a small myth of the machine as a
munchkin (R2D2,etc).  I cannot think of any other evidence of a
messianic model of the computer but somehow I can feel it coming.

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!moore@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Qwib-qwib: A review of Bezerker Base
Date: 20 Mar 85 08:33:49 GMT

> In the stories by Zelazny, Anderson, and Niven there is a
> different attitude toward computers (still many technical errors,
> the notion of berzerkers as being deadly because they're 'von
> Neumann machines' stands out)

    Just a quick note in defense.  There are two different concepts
under the label "von Neumann machine".  One is the computer
architecture concept of a single processor and separate memory
(ouch, an awful definition).  But it is another idea of Dr. von
Neumann that is being referred to above, an idea most recently
referred to in 2010.  Basically if you wish to a job of arbitrary
size, such as transform all of Jupiter, design a self-replicating
machine that can also do the job.  This way you personally build one
machine, and then sit back and let the wonders of exponential growth
increase the numbers of machines until you have enough to complete
the job at hand.  Of course you need raw materials, but for
terra-forming or planet-wrecking the raw materials are part of the
task.

    Peter Moore
    moore@Berkeley
    ucbvax!moore

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone?
Date: 19 Mar 85 08:26:40 GMT

>Funny, Dave, I never liked Titan, and after reading it, I stopped
>looking for any Varley to read. I liked the two or three of his
>shorter stories Ihad read before Titan, but Titan itself put me
>completely off Varley.
>hpfcla!bayes

Strange... I had just the opposite experience. I came across some
short stuff in various "best-of-the-year" collections and said "Gee,
that's neat" to myself after reading them. Then I came across TITAN,
and now I am quite thoroughly hooked on Varley. He has gone on my
(very short) list of authors for whom I have completist tendencies
as a result.
                              Bill Laubenheimer
                              UC-Berkeley Computer Science
                              ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 1985  12:24 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The weapon shops of Isher

        TWSoI was originally a short story which later became a
couple of chapters in the novel.  There is also a sequel, "The
Weapon Makers" which I found far more enjoyable.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 12:14:52 EST
Cc: tim@cmu-cs-k.arpa
Subject: re: Brainstorm loose ends

>From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
> The device in Brainstorm did have a number of interesting
> possibilities.  However, seeing the after-death experience is not
> one of them, so the discussion as it stands is moot.  There would
> be no way for the device to pick up information once brain-death
> occurred.  In the movie, it just blithely continues to record the
> experiences of her soul.  No doubt this was made possible by new
> astral plane technology they didn't bother to tell us about.
> Right.

This is known as ``engineering for failure'': let's think of a way
that something can't possibly work, assume it works that way, then
show how it won't work.

Clearly brain-death hadn't happened, since the machine was still
recording information from the brain.  Those weren't the experiences
of her soul, those were subjective impressions of random signals as
the brain broke down--a cross between phosphenes and dreaming.  That
a living observer of these phosphenes interprets them as ``angels''
and a heavenly chorus should hardly be surprising, since 1) we've
been primed to do so by a lot of folk-lore, and 2) the uniformity in
descriptions of the ``mystical experience'' the effects of drugs,
and ``near-death'' experiences might cause us to believe there is
some occurence that is common to these states, giving rise to the
folk-lore in the first place.

It would be easy to mis-interpret that last sentence to mean I think
mystical experiences are real.  That is not what I am saying.  I am
saying that these ``visions'' are caused by nervous-system events
[ugly term, how can I say that more precisely?--oh, well, trying to
describe objectively purely subjective events leads one to such
verbal gymnastics] which the conscious mind is trying to interpret
in familiar terms.

Both Eastern (Buddhist and Hindu) and Western (Christian) mystics
describe the mystical experience in much the same way (see Thomas
Merton's ``The Wisdom of the Desert'' or his book about Chuang Tzu)
but they interpret these experiences according to their own milieu.
One might assume that the similarity in descriptions comes from a
similarity in experience.  And of course we all know about how
Acid-heads think they have mystical experiences while tripping.  I
think the experiences are probably the same, what is different is
the (culturally-induced) interpretation.

It might have been neat for Brainstorms to have had two witnesses
there at the end: the Western-culture neurophysiologist and an
Eastern-culture (say Japanese or Indian) neurophysiologist, then do
split-screen to show their different interpretations of what was
happening.  Oh well, it would have been neat for Akira Kurosawa to
direct Star Wars (starring Humphrey Bogart or Toshiro Mifune as Han
Solo and Lauren Bacall as Princess Leia (with Bacall as Leia, no
need for a Luke Skywalker at all, and you can't improve on the
choice of Alec Guinness for Obi-wan Kenobi)), too...

Of course you might assume that brain-death had occured because of
the subjective length of the events (it seemed like a lot longer
than the two or three minutes the brain might be expected to still
be active) and I assume that was artistic license, since they were
obviously having fun with that sequence (and rightfully so).  I
liked that sequence a great deal.  I really loved all the mystical
symbols they were able to cram into those scenes, particularly the
very first one, just as whats-her-name's ``soul'' went through the
ceiling (remember, I'm talking in metaphor, here), and turned away
from her body to look upon an infinite net of jewels, each jewel
reflecting all the other jewels, each reflection a jewel showing
reflections of the others.  I think such a description of the
mystical experience can be found among Christian mystics and Eastern
mystics both.

------------------------------

From: tekig1!markp@topaz.arpa (Mark Pease)
Subject: Re: "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn"
Date: 19 Mar 85 19:11:10 GMT

reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes:
>....  The filmmakers requested that no reviews be printed, as the
>film won't be out for about six months.....

I saw a "news" artical on a Disney Channel program, called "Epcot
Magazine", discribing the Claymation process. They showed several
clips from "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn". The clips
were very good! The flim is a full length adventure story about the
travels of Mark Twain with Huck Finn and the rest of the crew of a
wild looking ballon (like the one in "Around the World in 80 Days".)
This should be a fun film, and I here that it will have its first
public showing in Portland, Ore. I'll be one of the first in line!

                                Mark Pease
                                Tektronix, Inc.
                                PO box 500 39-170
                                Beaverton, Oregon 97077
                                (503) 627-3559
                                ...tektronix!tekig1!markp

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jcjeff@topaz.arpa (jeffreys)
Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions
Date: 19 Mar 85 05:13:30 GMT

> ..... I don't think, however, that we should forget Nyssa's
> departure and

What about Tegan ???? She really wanted to come back (the second
time), but the Dr. had already left in the Tardis.

> Adric's final sacrifice (from the Davison era).

Adric's demise was LONG over due, he shouldn't have lasted more than
one episode. He never added anything to ANY story, apart from his
last one. His *explosive* death was was a fitting end.


      From the keys of Richard Jeffreys ( British Citizen Overseas )
              employed by North American Philips Corporation
              @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Illinois

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@topaz.arpa (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions
Date: 19 Mar 85 21:35:00 GMT

>   By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and
>Colin Baker?

No, they're not related.  (Not to give the impression that 2 out of
6 Britons have Baker as their last name )

                                    A. G. Percus
                             (ARPA) percus@acf4
                             (NYU) percus.acf4
                             (UUCP) ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 11:47 EST
From: Marshall.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: V

When my daughter (age = 11 years) heard of all the bad things said
about the TV show V on this distribution list she made me promise to
reply.  She loves the show and the various characters in it. She
likes the female lizards insulting each other and the Earth child
with paranormal powers. So maybe the TV producers know something
about their typical audience.

--Sidney Marshall

------------------------------

From: nic_vax!brown@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: V
Date: 20 Mar 85 19:10:58 GMT

> From: Marshall.wbst@XEROX.ARPA
> When my daughter (age = 11 years) heard of all the bad things said
> about the TV show V on this distribution list she made me promise
> to reply.  She loves the show and the various characters in it.
> She likes the female lizards insulting each other and the Earth
> child with paranormal powers. So maybe the TV producers know
> something about their typical audience.

I hope you had the heart to tell your daughter that this Friday,
March 22, is the last episode of the series (as reported in TV
Guide)

Mr. Video

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Mar 85 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Mar 85 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #105
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:

            Books - Biggle & Brust & Disch & Heinlein &
                    Tolkein & Wrede,
            Films - Brainstorm,
            Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) & The Prisoner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Jan Darzek books by LLoyd Biggle Jr.
Date: 21 Mar 85 20:53:05 GMT

There are three of these books:

"All the Colors of Darkness" Doubleday 1963
"Watchers of the Dark" Doubleday 1965
"This Darkening Universe" Doubleday 1975

The last is hard to find as the only copies are the original
Doubleday hardback. "This Darkening Universe" has never been
published in paperback.

Mark Biggar

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #97
Date: 22 Mar 85 18:42:35 GMT

> From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
> Good, another vote for LORD of LIGHT! I don't know about
> Connecticut Yankee though, somehow it seemed too "cute" when I
> read it.

"Cute?"  Er, um, may I humbly suggest you re-read it?

> By the way, Mr. Brust, are you planning another "Jhereg" novel
> soon?  I am sure that I and many others would like to learn about
> what happened at Deathsgate Falls, and maybe some more about the
> creators of the Dragaerans....

"Mr. Brust"????  Aw, c'mon....

I am currently working on TECKLA, which takes place immediatly after
JHEREG.  The damn things under contract, so I'd better get it done.
I have just finished a novel set in East of Dragaera called
BROKEDOWN PALACE (any more Deadheads here?) that should be out late
this year or early next.  The story of Vlad's first visit to
Deathgate falls will be in a book called EASTERNER.  If I don't get
bored with the series, that will be two books down the line.  Thanks
for asking.
                        - SKZB

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz.arpa (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Prisoner book
Date: 19 Mar 85 17:36:31 GMT

This doesn't have a lot to do with the televised version of the
Prisoner, but I just wanted to be helpful.  By the way, around here,
the series ended about mid-January, and there's already been quite a
bit of _Secret_Agent_ on.

I've read the 1st Prisoner novel, the one by Tom Disch.  One of my
favorite scenes in it is where he finds 17 cans of film with movies
of parts of his life that he doesn't remember.  The one he the most
of is _The_Schizoid_Man_, the one where a duplicate of number 6
appears.  There seem to be some minor differences between the
synopsis of the episode and the actual broadcast episode- for
instance, the color of the duplicate's clothing, and a final scene
[in the novel's summary] which showed the digested remains of the
double after Rover was through with him.  Perhaps Disch was working
from a screenplay.

If anyone had read Disch's novels _Camp_Concentration_ and/or
_The_Puppies_Of_Terra_ [a.k.a. _Mankind_Under_The_Leash_ alias
_White_Fang_Goes_Dingo_], there are quite notable similarities
between these two books and Disch's Prisoner novel.  In _Puppies_,
there is a chapter where 13,000 people escape from the St. Cloud,
Minnesota Womens' Penitentiary while presenting a version of Salome`
[but since it's for a popular audience, it's called Salami].  In the
Prisoner book, there is an escape during _Twelfth_Night_ (I think).
In both cases, the main character was unable to escape with the
rest.

_Camp_Concentration_ is also about a prison which is run by some
nameless power.  Its purpose is nearly opposite that of the Village;
in Camp Archimedes, the inmates have been given a drug to increase
their intelligence.  They are supposed to be creative instead of
conforming. [An annecdote: Disch told Michael Moorcock that he was
writing a novel about what everyone wanted to become.  Moorcock
asked if it was about becoming an elephant, but Disch set him
straight: everone wants to be smarter.]

[Spoiler in the next paragraph]
There is also a segment of _Camp_Concentration_ which is similar to
the epsode where 6's mind is switched with someone else's.  I'm not
sure which came first, although the idea is probably older that
either.

I really like Disch's writing, because he is extemely literate, and
also from Minnesota, so there are a few inside jokes for us
Minnesotans.  I'd guess that fans of _The_Prisoner_ would like his
other work, too.
                        Laurence Roberts
                        ...ihnp4|stolaf|robertsl

"Goodness gracious sakes alive/ the bees are buzzing in the hive/
 making honey strangely sweet / such as bunnies love to eat"
                From _On_Wings_of_Song, by Thomas Disch

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 24 Mar 1985 09:59:29-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks dtn 223-9408)
Subject: The Number of the Beast

"The Number of the Beast", by Robert Heinlein was mentioned in an
inquiry - sorry, forgot who asked.  If you were wondering about the
quality of this story, I have disappointing news for you. Namely, it
Bites the proverbial Big One.

It's awful. Wretched, not worth the paper, and so on.  I am a great
fan of Heinlein, and I guarantee no sane human could like this book.
Heinlein suffered a stroke and wrote this book as therapy during his
recovery - and it stands as a tragic depiction of muddled thinking,
ranting, obsession and mania.

It was a great joy to us Heinlein fans when "Friday" appeared,
signaling the recovery of RAH, the Dragon who Would Not Die.

If you read it, don't let your impression of Heinlein become
tarnished.  Number of the Beast is a fluke, and clearly an exception
to the other excellent works Heinlein has given us.

maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner [actually tLotR]
Date: 24 Mar 85 22:37:32 GMT

>>   The best English language book of the 20th century is very
>> probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". ...
>>
>>   Tolkien held the chair in English at Merton College in Oxford
>> for many years, was a master of Middle English and a prolific
>> writer. ...
>
> Since when does academia have a damn thing to do with a good book?
> Though Tolkien certainly was extremely imaginative and innovative.
> Personally, I find his writing ponderous and the characters a bit
> too black and white though certainly they are well above average
> books. ...

Well, one can expect a professor of English not to make too many
grammatical errors.  But I agree that academia and good books
are not very closely related.

I think what makes {\it The Lord of the Rings} so good is the amount
of work that went into it.  Middle-Earth has a solidity to it that
is very impressive.  If I am not mistaken, many of the writings that
were published in {\it The Silmarillion} were at least outlined
before tLotR was completed; they give a sense of history to tLotR.

Maybe I'll go read tLotR for the fourth time....

A Elbereth Gilthoniel, silivren penna miriel,

In-Real-Life:
Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: new book by Shetterly
Date: 22 Mar 85 17:34:24 GMT

>> At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * Shetterly,
>> I can now recommend it (it's hard to type and read at the same
>> time).  L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
>
> I must admit that the reviewers for the cover blurb (Brust and
> ???), put me off a bit when it was revealed that they and the
> author had cooperated in several workshops and publishing houses.
> However, I liked Brust's stories (_Jhereg_ and _Rendl_(sp)) very
> much.  I don't know about ???.

??? is Pat Wrede.  I like her books.  Especially TALKING TO DRAGONS
and THE HARP OF IMACH THYSSAL.  As for the recommendations, I am
certain that Pat meant hers.  I can almost guarantee that Brust
meant his.  Why does the relationship among the writers change this?
Are you aware of the extent to which authors know each other?  I'm
not.  Harlan Ellison recommends Heinlein's FRIDAY.  I wouldn't be at
all surprised if they've met.  Does this invalidate the
recommendation?

The point is that, in writing my recommendation, I felt that people
who like my books will probably like Will's.  Why?  Because I like
Will's, and I like mine.  Therefore there is certain similarity in
the appeal.

> I hope that this talented group of people start a new culture of
> fantasy: where rules are set down so that they can be broken with
> anguish by the characters, where good guys (and the reader) are
> misled, and characters willing give up their (god-given) powers.
>
> Marvelous!!!  I am always glad to see almost-mainstream quality
> fantasy.  --

Thank you for the adjective.  If you really want mainstream quality
writing in fantasy, I recommend the Gor books of John Norman.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: re: Brainstorm loose ends
Date: 23 Mar 85 00:51:49 GMT

Talking about Louise Fletcher's death in BRAINSTORM.

>Clearly brain-death hadn't happened, since the machine was still
>recording information from the brain.  Those weren't the
>experiences of her soul, those were subjective impressions of
>random signals as the brain broke down--a cross between phosphenes
>and dreaming.

There may be some indication that she was directing them, but it
takes some decoding.  I think there is the implication that she came
from a religious background and still took it seriously.  {WOW! How
did he get that out of the film???} Well, it's like this.  We see
her on the roof of a building talking to a man with heavy eyebrows.
He obviously is someone whose opinion she considers important.
Elsewhere in the film there is a scene in a cathedral and this same
heavy-eyebrowed man is leading the service.  I believe the end
credits also list someonw as a clergyman.  This all might imply
someone with deep religious convictions who keeps them out of her
work.  I have known people much like that in the scientific
community.  Admittedly none of this do I have a really strong case
for, but I think the implication is hidden there.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions
Date: 22 Mar 85 18:32:30 GMT

>>> By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and
>>> Colin Baker?
>>
>> No, they're not related.  (Not to give the impression that 2 out
>> of 6 Britons have Baker as their last name :-)
>>                                          A. G. Percus
>>                                   (ARPA) percus@acf4
>>                                    (NYU) percus.acf4
>>                                   (UUCP)
>> ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus
>
>BUT, Colin Baker does have a son named Tom!

Sorry, this is wrong.  Colin Baker has only one (living) child.  She
was born one week ago (15 March) at 8 lb. 11oz.  He had fathered a
child earlier, but that child succumbed to "cot death" (SIDS).

Since that time, Colin and his wife have been in the forefront for
fund raising in the UK to fight this disaster.

James C Armstrong, Jnr.  {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca

I think he needs more than water, Peri, ay?

------------------------------

From: ihuxp!gayde@topaz.arpa (Peter Gayde)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions
Date: 23 Mar 85 07:54:38 GMT

>>BUT, Colin Baker does have a son named Tom!
>
> Sorry, this is wrong.  Colin Baker has only one (living) child.
> She was born one week ago (15 March) at 8 lb. 11oz.  He had
> fathered a child earlier, but that child succumbed to "cot death"
> (SIDS).
>
> Since that time, Colin and his wife have been in the forefront for
> fund raising in the UK to fight this disaster.
>
> James C Armstrong, Jnr.  {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca

My information comes from the October 1983 issue of "Whovian Times",
the newsletter of the Doctor Who Fan Club of America.  The exact
quote is:

   "Baker is presently 40 years young.  He is married to actress
   Marion Wyatt.  He has a seven-year-old son (Tom Baker) from his
   previous marriage to actress Lisa Goddard!  This, of course, is
   not 'the' Tom Baker known as the Doctor, nor are the two related;
   but yes, it is ironic."

I have no idea how accurate this report is, but it seems to come
from a reliable source.

Peter Gayde     AT&T Technologies       Naperville, IL
ihnp4!{iwslc,ihuxp}!gayde
Work: (312) 979-7598
Home: (312) 963-1109

------------------------------

Date: March 21, 1985 1515EST
From: Richard  <QU229C%GWUVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Who companions

In response to the many comments about companions Sarah Jane is a
popular companion just not one of mine. To me despite her
independence, she was boring.  Always screaming and complaining.  I
like Harry he was resourceful in a number of instances. The ark in
Space and Genesis of the Daleks where he saved the Doctor's life
twice.

Louise Jameson (Leela) stared in a BBC mini-series Tenko that was
shown on the ARTS network.  It is the story of English women in a
Japanese prison camp during WW2.  This is very different role than
Leela, but it shows Jameson`s versatility as an actress.  The Doctor
did have a soft spot for Romana 11, she was a kindred spirit.  I
must disagree with a comment about Adric.  Adric was an important
factor in all of the Baker shows.  In Keeper of Traken his
relationship with Nyssa is very important and their sabotage of the
Source was a crucial part of the story.  In Logopolis he was of
equal importance.  Three companions are too many for one Doctor so
the show had to get rid of one and unfortunately they chose Adric.
A better choice would have been Tegan whom Adric and Nyssa had to
continually put in her place and who caused nothing but trouble.
The Doctor is always upset when a major companion leaves.  Sarah
Jane and he were forced to part when he was called to Gallifrey.  He
was unhappy when Leela left him to marry Andred.  He understood that
it was better for Romana to stay in E-Space rather than return to
Gallifrey, so she could be her own Romana.  He remarks to Adric in
Logopolis on how much he misses her.  Adric's death was especially
hard for the Doctor because scientifically it was possible for the
Doctor to go back in time to save him, but this was one rule he
couldn't break.  Finally when Tegan left him he remarked that he
would have to mend his ways.  This dictated his action in the next
two stories and caused him to give his life for Peri.

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (leeper)
Subject: PRISONER Fans: KOROSHI to be run on WOR-TV
Date: 24 Mar 85 16:16:05 GMT

I have talked to some fans of THE PRISONER who have said they want
to see episodes of SECRET AGENT.  (SECRET AGENT was Patrick
McGoohan's series before THE PRISONER and some have claimed that
PRISONER was just a continuation and the unnamed Number 6 is
supposed to be John Drake.)  In any case, on Thursday, March 28,
4pm, WOR-TV, Channel 9 in New York will run KOROSHI.  This is really
two episodes of SECRET AGENT.  It won't have the Johnny Rivers theme
and it is really just mediocre as a spy film, but it you cannot see
the series, it will have to do.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 27 Mar 85 1105-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Mar 85 1105-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #106
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Mar 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anderson & Biggle & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                  King & Tepper & Best Novels (2 msgs) &
                  Computers in SF,
          Films - Japanese Holocaust Film
          Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & V & Otherworld & 
                  Secret Agent,
          Miscellaneous - BayCon '85

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 85 07:37:53 EST
From: Howard.Gayle@CMU-CS-G
Subject: More Trillian stories?

Does anyone know if Poul Anderson wrote any stories, besides "A
little knowledge," set on the planet Trillia, or about its
inhabitants?  If you know of any, please send me mail.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1985  14:18 EST (Tue)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Jan Darzek books by LLoyd Biggle Jr.

        There is another Jan Darzek book that you haven't mentioned:
"Silence is Deadly" Doubleday late 70s, early 80s I think.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Mar 85 10:45:42-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: Digest V10 #105:  Heinlein's stroke

Beg to differ.  Heinlein did NOT suffer a stroke, but WAS at one
time suffering from circulation-deficiency problems of the brain.  I
do not recall the details--and I loaned (permanently, it seems) my
copy of _Expanded Universe_ to a friend.  However, in one of the
non-fiction selections therein, he describes the events which led to
his recovery; as I recall, the original version of this essay was
his testimony before a Congressional committee looking into "just
what the space program has done for us."  (NB: The quotes are MY
paraphrase.)

I agree about the joy at the publication of _Friday_; however, I
fear that most RAH fans will disagree with us.  I've found that few
of them like anything since _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.  (I
myself didn't like _Farnham's Freehold_ the first time I read it.)
Most of them seem to object most to his reaction to the Panshins'
criticism of _Stranger in a Strange Land_, that he couldn't write
about sex.

Enough fuel for the fires.  And a mini-flame: Goulart is as bad as
Herbert and Leinster!
                                                Rich Alderson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 85 11:28 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Heinlein's Worst
Cc: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA, Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA

        I'm afraid that Number of the Beast was such an improvement
over I Will Fear No Evil that there are not words in my vocabulary
to quantify it.  Are you certain that IWFNE is not the book written
as therapy?  On the otherhand, it has been said that this was
written while RAH was ill unto dying, until blood donors were found
so that an arterial (?) bypass operation could be performed,
reversing the rather early onset of senility-not-likely-to-have-
been-Alzheimer's., due to a lessening of flow of blood to the brain.
        Most folk I talk to refer to NotB as the Heinlein Character
Convention Novel.  It smacked of Last Novel Before I Die, to me, and
for the refutation of that feeling was I glad that Friday was
published.
         I have never even bothered to read Farnham's Freehold--I
tried once, got ten pages before I couldn't bear it anymore.
                                A. Marina Fournier
                                <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban)
Subject: Eyes of the Dragon
Date: 26 Mar 85 14:20:03 GMT

        Can Jerry Boyajian or anyone else give their opinion of this
book by Stephen King (no spoilers, please, I'm waiting for its
general release in 1987)? Thanks.
                                                Rick Urban
                                                ihnp4!cbscc!rsu

------------------------------

From: deepthot!julian@topaz.arpa (Julian Davies)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper - Song of Mavin Manyshaped
Date: 26 Mar 85 00:29:29 GMT

I thought this was a good book too.  One passage which impressed me
in passing was when Mavin explained to Mertyn (a young lad) how it
was that women don't appreciate being raped, while acknowledging
that they do enjoy sex in appropriate contexts.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 22 Mar 85 18:02:04 GMT

I feel your choices are all good ones.  The reasons I wouldn't agree
with them aren't that they are bad, they merely aren't as perfect as
LoL.  SONGMASTER, in my humble opinion, falls apart at the end,
although it is tremendous up until then.  RIDDLE OF STARS is very
good, but not up there with the others.  Neither Bradley or Eddings
are quite good enough word-smiths, and CREATURES OF LIGHT AND
DARKNESS, while I love it muchly, isn't quite accessable enough.

I tend to differentiate "This is good" from "I like this."  Lord of
Light brings everything together.  It...oh well.  I'm glad this
discussion began.  I'm enjoying it.
                        - SKZB

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 22 Mar 85 18:32:18 GMT

I don't want to put down Tolkien.  Heaven knows, I have read the
trilogy upwards of thirty times, and I have all of the follow-ups to
it (Unfinished Tales, Letters, etc) in hard cover.  But, frankly,
Tolkien's prose tends to be sloppy.  He drags, his characters
sometimes seem shallow (they actually aren't when you push it, but
you shouldn't have to push it), and the book is loaded with, if not
inaccuracies, at least things that push your suspension of disbelief
(relationship between the aristocracy and the peasantry, the general
lack of disease, errors in transportation) when it comes to the
European Middle Ages.  His triumph was the telling of a magnificent
tale in spite of these problems.

The reason that he is used as the standard is because he sold well.
If you feel this is a valid standard, than the GOR books of John
Norman are equivalent of today.  I hope this is not the case.

Those who are into poetry don't think much of Tolkien's in many
cases.  I wouldn't know about that; I love his poetry.  I once did a
dramatic reading of Gimli's poem that--never mind.

As for LORD OF LIGHT--within the context of the story, there are no
flaws.  After reading it about six times, I found a few plot holes.
After reading it about nine times, I understood them to be
statements on their own.  The book reads well and is accessible.  It
is a good story.  It is yet another, different good story.  And a
third.  At least three different stories (the direct one, involving
Sam, Yama, and their merry friends, the story within the context of
the Hindu Gods, and the story of the development of the society).
And this is BEFORE getting into the real depth of the book.

At one level, he is dealing with the conflict between man's desire
for individual happiness and his need to improve the world around
him.  At another level, he is dealing with the relationship between
man and the gods that he creates.  At another, he is making a
statement about the effect of technology on man--his own
deification.  At another, on the process of maturation, individual
and societal.  And at another, on our perceptions of the world
around us, and how this effects our ability to change it.  Yet
again, on the relationship between knowledge and the need to act on
this knowledge.  And on the nature of pride--good and bad.

This is only a part of it.  I once made a list of the different
levels of the story and, while I don't remember the total list, it
was quite impressive.  I don't think I've read the book more than
fifty times, so I'm sure there are plenty that I missed.  Every time
I read it I come away with something new.  Each level is carried to
full fruition in a book less than 400 pages long.  And this, by the
way, is without getting into additional things he may be saying by
obscure metaphor, on which I'm not prepared to comment.

His characterizations are beautiful and powerful both in the sense
that characters are easily distinguishable from each other by both
content and style of speech, and in the depth that each one has.  In
the book, as in life, there is not a single character who is on for
more than three pages who doesn't change throughout the book.

His prose and dialogue are perfect.  The mechanics of the writing
are without flaw.  And above all, he never for an instant forgets
that his job as a novelist is to tell an enjoyable story, and he
does.  The first two or three times I read it, I wasn't aware that
there was anything more to it than it.

It is incomparable.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Mon 25 Mar 85 14:49:54-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #104

    There are a few "machine as a [vaguely] benign despot" stories
floating around.  Jack Williamson's _Humanoids_ books have somewhat
of that flavor, although the machines are *very* determined to be
both benign and despotic.  Were I less comatose, I could think of
others.

Bard Bloom.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 25 Mar 1985 10:18:13-PST
From: tighe%dice.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Mark J. Tighe, @CXO - DTN 522-2400)
Subject: request for Japanese Holocaust film. I have it.

Hi there.

I got second handed a request for information on the Japanese
Holocaust film.

I was IN Hiroshima last January (1985) and saw several.

I was fortunate enough to be able to bring back an English
translation of the film entitled

        "Hirosima and Nagasaki - the Harvest of Nuclear War."

It is an EXTREMELY interesting and well done film.

I would HIGHLY advise that as many people as possible see it.

By the way, there is NOT a SINGLE note of anti-American propadanda
in the entire film (45 min long). It is simply factual information
of what occured.

Please make this information as WIDELY available as possible.  (On
several wide distribution lists/nets if possible.)

I would be more than happy to loan/distribute/give info on how to
get it to as many folks as would like.  I have the VHS format, it is
available in both VHS and beta.

Anyone: please feel free to contact me directly about the film.

enet:::         DECWRL::RHEA::DICE::TIGHE
work::          (303) 594-2400
home::          Mark J. Tighe
                460 White Tail Way
                Monument, CO 80132
                (303) 488-2763

p.s. warning: the film has some very explicit footage that is not
normally seen on US TV. it is however, extraordinarily factual.

------------------------------

Date: 19850326-0018EST
From: BLUEINC%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Help Save the Doctor|

  The BBC has decided to put DOCTOR WHO on 'hiatus' for at least 18
months. The longest running science fiction program in the world
stands in imminent danger of cancellation

  The Doctor needs your support. Write:

The Honorable Nigel Dawson
Chancellor
11 Downing Street
London
England

Alasdair Milne
Director General
BBC-TV
White City
London W12
England

William Cotton
Managing Director
BBC-TV
White City
London W12
England

  Remember: Time is of the essence. Preproduction to the next season
was sceduled to begin around April 1. We can still fight the
decision if you make your voices heard now|

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 1985 08:00-EST
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Dr. Who Companions

        In the spirit of the times, my nominations for best
companion are: 1) Peri, 2) Nyssa and 3) Leela in that order.
Although the award for the best performance by a companion I feel
goes to Leela for "The Talons of Wang Chiang". My award for best
story goes to "The Invasion of Time" (so far) with honorable mention
in the acceptance speech going to "The Pyramids of Mars".

        I feel Peri is the most "human" (as Savik would say) of the
companions (besides having the best looks in my opinion). Her
character has no gimmicks or strings attached like the others (eg.
Leela the savage, Romama the over-educated, Tegan the obnoxious,
Sarah Jane the wimpy, and Nyssa the Good-looking who in every story
wears less and less until she finally disappeared...did I get them
all?).
                                                wesm@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

From: allegra!don@topaz.arpa (Don Mitchell)
Subject: V
Date: 26 Mar 85 14:18:28 GMT

I tend to watch Sci-Fi compulsively, so I am overjoyed to hear that
"V" has been canceled!  Not only was this show stupid, I really
found it to be offensive.  What kind of message was this show
suppose to be giving to children?  Why put all this soap-opera sex
on a children's show?  Also, the most offensive thing I have ever
seen on prime time was the mincing homosexual alien who appeared in
the last few episodes.  The writers of this show must be a bunch of
jerks.

------------------------------

From: allegra!don@topaz.arpa (Don Mitchell)
Subject: Otherworld
Date: 26 Mar 85 14:18:28 GMT

Has anyone been watching "Otherworld"?  It's pretty dumb too, but
not quite as offensive as V.  The strange thing about this show is
the arty production and direction.  Sort of a wasted effort, really.
The last episode was set in a city ruled by a corporate dictatorship
and ended with a worker's revolt.  Now there is a show looking to
get cancelled!

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: KOROSHI, Danger Man, Secret Agent, Prisoner
Date: 26 Mar 85 20:34:09 GMT

From my mailbox, but of general interest:

>The series here in England preceding the Prisoner was called Danger
>Man.  I am assuming that this is the same programme as Secret
>Agent.  The prisoner IS a follow on from Danger Man as the opening
>credits for Prisoner show Danger Mans London flat and his Lotus
>car.  In the last episode of Danger Man John Drake resigns and
>refuses to give any reasons for his resignation.  He is drugged at
>his flat and taken to the village, given the number 6 and a whole
>new series was born.  You can take this as correct as i was a fan
>of the prisoner when it was first shown here in 1968.

In the US there were three not-very-distinct series.  We got a
program called DANGER MAN.  It was a half-hour tv series and it
introduced the character John Drake.  I believe it ran on Saturday
nights on CBS.  The series was replaced by SECRET AGENT.  This was a
more lavish version of the same series and the episodes were an hour
in length.  Reportedly at this time the idea was to turn Drake into
a womanizing copy of James Bond but McGoohan himself rebelled.  It
may well be that it was considered one series called DANGER MAN in
England, however.  Here it was introduced each week with a specially
written musical theme by Johnny Rivers "Secret Agent Man."  The song
became popular on the radio, incidently.  Since Rivers is an
American, I think, it is possible that the American version was
repackaged with a different title.  Somehow I find it surprising
that there was not a British series called SECRET AGENT.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: wdl1!jrb@topaz.arpa
Subject: BayCon '85 Science Programming
Date: 23 Mar 85 02:23:38 GMT

I'm working on the committee for the upcoming BayCon '85 Science
Fiction Convention to be held Memorial Day weekend at the Red Lion
Inn in San Jose.  We are currently trying to come up with an
interesting science track for our programming.  If you have any
ideas, please let me know.
                                John R Blaker
                                UUCP:   ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb
                                ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1
                                and     blaker@FORD-WDL2

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 29 Mar 85 1139-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Mar 85 1139-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #107
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 29 Mar 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:

      Books - Anderson & Asimov & Biggle & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
              The Enchanted Duplicator & Story Request &
              Nebula Anthology #17 & Cover Blurbs (2 msgs)
              Memory Recording & Female Writers &
              Hell-cats of Sansato,
      Miscellaneous - Best X & SF Book Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 1985 02:14:49-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: More Trillian stories?

> From: Howard.Gayle@CMU-CS-G
> Does anyone know if Poul Anderson wrote any stories, besides "A
> little knowledge," set on the planet Trillia, or about its
> inhabitants?  If you know of any, please send me mail.

"A Little Knowledge" is part of Anderson's Polesotechnic History,
but is the only story, as far as I know, that deals with this
particular planet or its inhabitants.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 1985 13:27:49-PST
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: heart attacks and other illnesses...

Speaking of wonderful writers dying...

How is Isaac Asimov doing? I read early last year that he had a
heart attack, but I haven't read (or heard) anything since.  Did he
indeed have a heart attack? If he did, is he alright?  and what is
he up to now?

Also, does he have a "public" address?

Thanks in advance!!!

gaylene

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Jan Darzek books by LLoyd Biggle Jr.
Date: 25 Mar 85 18:36:21 GMT

> There are three of these books:
>
> "All the Colors of Darkness" Doubleday 1963
> "Watchers of the Dark" Doubleday 1965
> "This Darkening Universe" Doubleday 1975
>
> The last is hard to find as the only copies are the original
> Doubleday hardback. "This Darkening Universe" has never been
> published in paperback.
> Mark Biggar

You forgot one.  "Silence is deadly" which I believe is also a
Doubleday.  Not a Darzek but unquestionably my favorite Biggle,
however, is "The Small Still Voice of Trumpets" hard to find but in
my book worth it.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 85 09:47:40 EST (Tuesday)
Subject: RE: The Number of the Beast
From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@XEROX.ARPA>

>>It's awful. Wretched, not worth the paper, and so on.  I am a
>>great fan of Heinlein, and I guarantee no sane human could like
>>this book....

FLAME HIGH
Well, its always nice to know what other people think of you, even
when they've never met you!! I think we should leave personal
attacks out of the reviews on this DL.  While it does illustrate the
extent of your feelings, I think that another way could be found --
one that does not insult or degrade other human beings who have as
much right to their opinions as you do to yours.
FLAME OFF

Anyway, about TNOTB -- I liked it, all except the ending.  It was
definitely not Heinlein's best, probably the worst, but it had its
moments.  The encounter of two of my all-time favorite protagonists
and the alternate universes made reading this book worthwhile for
me.

It is obviously written for the author, much in the same way
Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions was his 50th (40th?) birthday
present to himself.  If you have never read any Heinlein, I would
not recommend you read TNOTB first.  Anything earlier is fantastic
(yes, I admit it -- I'm a Heinlein fan), and Friday is definitely
better, although still not up to his usual standards.  JOB, however,
is fantastic and by far one of the best books

~Brenda

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: The Number of the Beast
Date: 26 Mar 85 16:03:02 GMT

Odd, I actually *liked* Number of the Beast.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Sat 23 Mar 85 01:47:43-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The enchanted duplicator...

        I would like to get in touch with Walt Willis and/or Bob
Shaw, the authors of The Enchanted Duplicator.  While I doubt that
they have net addresses, does anyone have phone numbers and/or Snail
Mail addresses?  Please respond directly to me.

                                        Thanks,
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 85 02:01:27 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Anyone recognize this?

A government employee, investigating packages and letters from
individuals classified as potential subversives, finds a suspicious
parcel.  This is the second such parcel he has observed in the last
few months.  Opening the parcel reveals a photograph and letter.

The short story was a great shocker, but I don't remember where I
read it.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 1985 03:24:43-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Nebula Awards Anthology #17

> From: homxa!loucl@topaz (L.CHANLIZAROO)
> I am looking for the Nebula Award anthology 17.  I believe book 16
> was edited by Herbert or Pournelle, and book 18 was editied by
> Silverberg.  Could somebody please tell me if book 17 exists at
> all, who the editor is, and is it available in hard, trade or
> paper back form?  Thanks in advance.

NEBULA AWARDS #17 was edited by Joe Haldeman, and is scheduled for a
paperback edition from Ace Books in May.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: cover blurbs
Date: 27 Mar 85 00:16:57 GMT

I suppose I incorporate past behavior of cover-blurb authors when
thinking about a new cover blurb.  But names like "Cleveland Plains
Dealer" (all my Cleveland friends must have mispronounced "Plains",
then) and "L A Times" are pretty anonymous--usually you don't see
who it was at the paper who made the review, whether they've left
since the last reliable review. I prefer to trust the reviews of the
informed, or at least the interested, in whatever the particular
field is--a review indicating the reviewer doesn't understand the
field or the conventions of the genre isn't going to help me much if
I'm fluent in the field or the genre, although it may be of use to
those considering making a reader's entrance.  The status of the
cover-blurb author may not be information I have, whether the person
is famous, known, unknown, unpublished, or not an author; also, fame
doesn't necessarily imply or deny critical ability or thought.

I've never seen any paper from Cleveland (or Minneapolis).  I just
named an oft seen newspaper, which is why I chose it, not to put
down Cleveland.  Does it have reliable reviews?

The kind of person who recommends friends indiscriminately is often
easy to distinguish.

And I'm unpublished which is easy to be when one is not a writer.
(I had a vague feeling I was being accused of print-envy.)

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Re-recommendation of _Cats_Have_No_Lord_
Date: 26 Mar 85 16:23:41 GMT

> Reviews by Plain Dealers [distance breeds ignorance].  Faint
> praise from Famous Authors, Not-So-Famous Authors, Wish-To-Be
> Famous Authors [as in damning with ...].  Excerpted reviews (lots
> of ellipses) [what did they leave out and why?].  Misleading or
> spoiler cover blurbs [reducing anticipation].  Irrelevant cover
> art [so what if he's brunet and 5'4", he acts like Adonis].

You remind me of a project for somewhen.  I want to write a sort of
ok type SF novel and prime the cover quotes.  First of all, on the
back it could say, "Better science than Tolkien!  Better world
building than Spider Robinson!  Better characterizations than Hogan!
Better dialogue than Asimov! ..." etc. etc.  Then, on the inside,
fill it with quotes from reviewers and famous authors.  Things like,
"Not a bad read."  and "All right for long plane trips."  and "I've
read worse."  "Not great, but not bad."

I'm sure no publisher would go along with it, but it would
interesting to how the public would react.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 18:46:47 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Memory recording stories

There has been some discussion (started by "Brainstorm", a movie
which I must confess I haven't seen) about recording/transmission of
human thoughts, and about stories concerning the same.  Here are a
few that I remember:

"The Dueling Machine" by Ben Bova.  Set in a far-future galactic
        empire, this is about a machine which projects two "players"
        into a fantasy landscape created by computer.  The players
        can do anything to each other in the game, which ends when
        one surrenders.  It is intended to be used as a means to
        peacefully settle disputes, but various nasties find ways to
        do unpleasant things with it.

"The Mueller-Fokker Effect" by John Sladek.  A very very strange
        book, stylistically similar to the /Illuminatus/ series,
        which concerns, among a few dozen other plots, a man who
        "volunteers" for a government experiment which transfers his
        personality and memories to magnetic tape, after which his
        body is accidentally destroyed.  It turns out, though, that
        his "soul" attains consciousness of a sort while in the tape
        . . . [I believe this one is out of print.  Too bad.  Does
        anyone know if it's still around, or if Sladek wrote
        anything else besides this and /The Best of John Sladek/ ??]

A book whose title escapes me, by D.G. Compton, which strikes me as
        being *very* similar to what I've heard about Brainstorm,
        about a small company which develops an "experience-
        recording" device.  As I recall, one of the things that they
        made tapes of was a sex act (with partners solicited by
        personal ads), and the machines were eventually sold, along
        with tapes.

The novels "A World Out Of Time" and "Integral Trees" by Larry Niven
        also use the idea of putting a human's personality into a
        computer, as does his Berserker story, "A Teardrop Falls"
        (in /Limits/).

John Varley's future history also has people's minds being recoded
        (on "Ferro-Photo-Nucleic Acid") and played into clones upon
        the original body's death.

Also see the movie "Dreamscape".

Whee!  There must be dozens more stories on this theme . . .

                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Mar 85 00:50:19-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Women writers

I may have missed the beginning of this, but I haven't seen P.C.
Hodgell (_God_Stalk_) on any recent lists.

Pax VAXque tecum,
Bard

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jcgowl@topaz.arpa (r. gowland)
Subject: Hell-cats of Sansato
Date: 28 Mar 85 17:51:41 GMT

Can anyone tell me the author of this short story which I read
umpteen years ago? I can't even remember much about the story except
that to a teenager it seemed exciting.

Thanks in anticipation ...

ihlpg!jcgowl Roger R. Gowland at AT&T Bell Labs, Indian Hill
        now appearing back here for one week only
   and going home Friday to ... hvmga!rgowland at APT UK

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 11:26:57 EST
From: Julian R. Long <jlong@BBNCCM.ARPA>
Subject: Best X in the Cosmos

>Why so many people in this group and others feel compelled to make
>statements about the "best X of all times" is beyond me. Have you

>Please, people, you're just begging for flames with postings like
>this. Each of us has books/films/songs that he or she is

Maybe thats exaclty the kind of reaction we are trying to get ?
Appreciation of Art, in this case literature, is very subjective.
It may well be impossible to say what is the "best x in the world"
since there are no standards by which to measure them .  All minds
are different , minds are responsible for processing the
information, each mind comes up with a different result/experience ,
e.g if the information processor is different in every case
(different instruction set) , then the meaning of the information
(program) is different in each case .

Therefore each mind has itself as the only standard by which it can
measure , shall we say comparatively , the qualities of a book .

A mind is only able to conceive of what it has experienced ,
therefore something that it considers to be comparatively the
"best", because it cannot conceive anything else , and because its
only standard is itself , IS the best in its world . No other mind
can tell the mind it is wrong . The other mind might find it wrong
because its interpretation of the information is different and its
base of experience for comparision different .

Of course i would like to add , i think , probably , in my (minds)
experience , although i could be wrong etc ..

If you buy that , you'll buy anything ....

-julian long
Dept of Neurological Reasarch
Vicksburg University

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 10:15 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF Book Club

Over the last two months, a discussion of the Science Fiction Book
Club has been occurring. As a member, I have been reading with
interest the various messages.  I recently received the lastest
selection of books, and I thought it might be helpful to give some
examples from it.

The two main selections are: The Belgariad: Part Two by David
Eddings, and So Long and Thanks for all the Fish by Douglas Adams.
The first of these consists of a combined set of the last two books
of the Belgariad: Castle of Wizardry and Enchanter's End Game.  Now
I admit that these books have been out in paperback for a little
while, but the key to this offering is the price: $7.98. This is
about how much you would spend for the paperback versions of these
together.

The second book offering is a little different. The fourth book of
the Hitchhiker's Trilogy is not out in paperback yet. And the price
is good: $4.98. This is slightly more than you would pay for the
paperback, and you get a hardcover book (admittedly not the most
superb quality, but good nonetheless).

Glancing over the other titles offered I find the following: The
Belgariad: Part One, Berserker Base, the three Heechee books, Port
Eternity by Cherryh, The Crucible of Time by Brunner, Bishop's Heir
by Kurtz, the collected versions of the Sanctuary books: Sanctuary
and Cross-Currents, the Celestial Steam Locomotive and Gods of the
Greataway by Coney.  This is about a third of the books.

Now this should give you an idea of the selection available, the
relative price, and the timeliness of their release. For information
about the individual books involved, read previous volumes of this
rag.

     Brett Slocum
       (ARPA: Slocum@HI-MULTICS)
       (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Mar 85 1207-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #108
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 30 Mar 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Eddison & Goulart &
                    Tolkien & Zelazny,
            Films - Brainstorm (2 msgs) & Wizards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Date: 26 Mar 85 17:24:15 GMT

>       1)  Why was "Jhereg" published first, followed by "Yendi"?
>           The chronological order, should be:
>               "Jhereg" prologue, "Yendi", "Jhereg" body.
>           If the books are read in order of publication, then
>           "Jhereg" gives away a lot of the action that should
>           be a suprise in "Yendi".

JHEREG was published first because I wrote it first.  Furthermore,
when I wrote it, I had no idea anyone was going to want to actually
PUBLISH it.  I mean what?  Me?  I'm sorry you feel JHEREG gives away
surprises.  Those were supposed to be teasers.  Anyway, the order of
books to date (and future) is:
                JHEREG
                TO REIGN IN HELL
                YENDI
                BROKEDOWN PALACE (Jan. '86)
                TECKLA (In progress).

>       2)  Are there plans for any more "Vlad Taltos" novels?
>           If so, when can they be expected, and where will
>           they fall in the already confusing chronology?

Chronologicaly, the order is as follows:
                EASTERNER (maybe 1990???)
                YENDI
                JHEREG
                TECKLA
It is possible there will be others (and not certain EASTERNER will
be written) depending on whether I feel there is anything worthwhile
to write about these characters.

Thanks for asking.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: tekchips!kentb@topaz.arpa (Kent Beck)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Date: 26 Mar 85 01:33:55 GMT

> From: hmiller@mit-speaker (Herbert A Miller)
>       1)  Why was "Jhereg" published first, followed by "Yendi"?
>           The chronological order, should be:
>               "Jhereg" prologue, "Yendi", "Jhereg" body.
>           If the books are read in order of publication, then
>           "Jhereg" gives away a lot of the action that should
>           be a suprise in "Yendi".

Don't believe it for a minute.  These novels were written to be read
backwards.  Recently someone else on the net claimed that they
should be read in chronological order, so to prove it to myself, I
did (I might add that I have read them in published order several
times).  Yuch!!!  There is far more information given away reading
"Yendi" first than the other way around.  One of the beauties of
these books is that "Jhereg" sets up several puzzles that are solved
in "Yendi," and they are intended to be read that way.

Now, Steven, when are we going to find out what happened at
Deathsgate Falls?

Kent Beck
uucp:   tektronix!tekchips!kentb
CSNet:  kentb@tektronix

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Mar 85 12:23:09-PST
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: Group minds, first books, etc.

Once again, I am forwarding a message for my friend suffering under
the totalitarian control which prevents her from openly taking part
in the discourse found in this BBoard.

As she has never been known to keep her mouth shut for long, I am
not terribly suprised.  Fortunately, I generally enjoy that (large
amount) which she has to say.  Anyway, here goes...

Re : Group Minds, First Books, Etc. & So Forth

Just as a note, Kate Wilhelm's _Where_Late_the_Sweet_Birds_Sang had
group minds.

My votes for the best first novels go to PC Hodgell and Steven (KZ)
Brust.  (Zelazny aside & included)

                        semi-spoiler warning

I desperately liked _God_Stalk_ and hope that a sequel will come
out.  (Does anyone know why Jame is 10 years approx younger than
Tori?  Why she was cast out?  Where she spent those years?  Why she
had (genetic) differences to start off with? Who her mother might
have been?  If Bane was her brother?  Why Bane's Mother might have
left?  How there can be half-breed (etc) high borns? If so, can they
interbreed with the Arrin-ken (sp?)?  If the breed started off all
the same? What a truncheon is?  Is the Innkeeper also Mistress
Abernia (sp?)? If so, how can they both talk at once?  Is there
perhaps another person there (sex unknown) who we don't know?  What
does Jame do with Jorin when she leaves to go off with
whats-his-face-the-guard?)

However, my absolutely favorite first novel (and second and third)
was by Steven Brust.  (Yes, I liked Zelazny, but...)  However,
reading it, I got the vague impression that this might have been his
second or so novel but PUBLISHED first.  Of course, I could be wrong
and if so, I am phenomenally overwhelmed by awe.

As far as Jhereg/Yendi/T.R.I.H. : Does anyone know what the young
girl with the brown eyes is doing in all the books?  Guesses of what
Kragar (sp?) did to be kicked out of the House of the Dragon?  What
the hell is the backround behind Sethra?  Any interesting ideas
about the Jenoine?  How Aliera knew about Vlad?  What the east is
like?  Who is Aliera's child's father? (that is, re :flashback/
ahead? in Yendi) Could it (gasp, hope) be Kragar? What the window in
the tower is looking out into?  How the necromancer is caught up in
this? What is dead vs undead?  Why Vlad, et. al.  originally went
into the paths of the dead for or to do?  If Vlad is not genetically
of the Dragaerians, why could he create chaos.  Who are those
strange races vaguely alluded to who make nifty wine and deadly
daggers?  Do the daggers actually kill the immortal soul or merely
capture them?

Just as a note, As far as Zelazny goes, my simple rule is If it is
written in first person, buy it.  Otherwise, wait for someone else
to read it first.  (Does anyone know if Trumps of Doom will be told
by Corwin????)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Mar 85 00:48:19-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Best F&SF novel

I'd like to throw E.R. Eddison's _The_Worm_Ouroboros_ and its
?sequels?  the Zimiamvia trilogy into the Best SF Book fray.  They
probably won't beat Lord of Light, even for me.  But they're the
best I've read in the Tolkein school (more amazing since they were
written before Tolkein).  They have the good qualities that
everyone's been claiming for Tolkein -- good world construction
(Tolkein designed languages; Eddison designed philosophies), lots of
detail, and so on.  But all of Eddison's major characters (and many
minor ones, too) are strong -- the evil ones are as interesting and
real as the good ones.  I know Corsus and Corinius a -lot- better
than I know the King of the Nazgul and Sauron -- or Niritti the
Black or Ganesha, for that matter.

(On the other talon, Eddison's prose is every bit as light and
fluffy as a neutron star to many people (others think it's superb);
he goes overboard in descriptions of palaces; and he introduces a
narrator at the beginning of the book and forgets him after about
fifty pages.  He doesn't have all those layers of meaning that
Steven Brust sang about, either; though he does have his own
subtleties.  He died about a third of the way through the last of
the Zimiamvian trilogy; but then Tolkein died at a bad time too.)

The Immoral Bard.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Mar 85 19:54:50-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Goulart
Cc: alderson@SU-SCORE.ARPA

VERY true. Goulart's stuff is not only written very poorly, it is
not funny at all. I haven't liked any of his stuff, even though the
guy gave me an autographed advance ad for the dreadful Starhawks
comic (which I lost....)

However, enough people must like it for the man to earn a living
writing the stuff....

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!dts@topaz.arpa (Danny Sharpe)
Subject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkien
Date: 25 Mar 85 14:28:29 GMT

milne@uci-icse lists some of Tolkien's works:
>    - The Silmarillion (posthumous; completed and edited by
>        Tolkien's son.
>    - Unfinished Tails
>    - The Road Goes Ever On and On
>    - The Adventures of Tom Bombadil
>    - Leaf by Niggle

You've missed some:

     Tolkien's son is editing three more books along the same lines
     as _Unfinished_Tales_.  Two are out already (_The_Book_of_Lost_
     Tales Parts 1 and 2).  The third one I think will be called
     _The_Lays_ of_Beleriand_.

     Then there's a book of essays and lectures called _The_
     Monsters_ and_the_Critics_, also edited by his son.  In one of
     the lectures ("The Secret Vice") he talks about his passion for
     inventing languages and why he did so.

     Then there are two more books: _The_Father_Christmas_Letters_,
     a collection of letters written by Father Christmas (actually
     by Tolkien) and delivered to Tolkien's children at Christmas,
     and another short book which I haven't read called _Mr._Bliss_.

     And you can get some of his translations from Old English (like
     _Finn_and_Hengest_, etc.).

     Caedmon puts out (or used to) several record albums:
     _Poems_and_ Songs_of_Middle_Earth (which is a recording of the
     music in _The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_), two records of Tolkien
     reading from _The_Hobbit_ and TLOTR, and a record of
     Christopher Tolkien reading from _The_Silmarillion_.  There is
     some Elvish on a couple of the albums.  (I don't know if all
     these are still in print, but I've seen them at Oxford Book
     Store, 2345 Peachtree Road NE, Atlanta GA, zipcode unknown.)

>    However, never in all my readings have I encountered anything
>that even approaches The Lord of the Rings in stature, even the
>things I've read and re-read with undiminished pleasure.  Its
>impression on me is so strong that I'll risk sticking my neck out
>and calling it "the best" with no more qualification than a
>"probably".  Which, as a subsequent message rightly pointed out, is
>most unwise practice.  ...
>    One other point: when I said "prolific", I did not mean in the
>sense of being a veritable book factory.  I was thinking rather of
>Tolkien's ability to pursue his explorations of the intertwined
>histories of Middle Earth, and its languages and cultures, in
>seemingly unending depth and detail along so many different paths,
>while never losing the beauty of the epic.  Those explorations have
>produced the works I listed above: not many, by some standards, but
>great by almost any.  This unceasing power in his writing is what I
>meant by "prolific".

I heartily agree.  I don't know of any other world, created by any
other author, that is both as deep and as broad as Middle Earth.
One of several reasons Tolkien invented the place was to give the
English people a body of myths, and he spent most of his life
working on it.  I think he did a good job, and if we forget his work
it'll be to our shame.

I won't call his work "the best" or "the most enjoyable", but I will
say it's a large body of work and it has depth and much beauty for
anyone who cares to look.  You don't have to dig deep to find the
good qualities.

Danny Sharpe
School of ICS
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts

------------------------------

Subject: Lord of Light - how Zelazny did it
Date: 27 Mar 85 23:34:19 EST (Wed)
From: Mike O'Brien <obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA>

        Emotionally I agree with Steve Brust's assessment of LoL -
when I ask the impossible question of "what's your favorite novel",
this one comes to the top, except when I claim it's "The Book of the
New Sun".  The only reason I don't also agree intellectually is that
I'm too much of an intellectual coward.

        I remember Zelazny saying some years ago how he got the
idea.  He was at an SF con, and cut himself shaving one morning.  He
looked at the blood, and started thinking about blood, and started
thinking about death, and started thinking about Kali, goddess of
Death, and by the end of the day, LoL was mostly plotted.  Almost
made me run right out and buy a straight razor.

        Sometimes, to amuse myself, I try to characterize novels
which I like in impossibly short similes.  I like Brust's works to
date, and characterize them as "Philip Marlowe comes to Lankhmar".
Boy am I glad I don't have to live in HIS world!

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Brainstorm loose ends
Date: 25 Mar 85 18:12:50 GMT

>Clearly brain-death hadn't happened, since the machine was still
>recording information from the brain.  Those weren't the
>experiences of her soul, those were subjective impressions of
>random signals as the brain broke down...

I thoroughly agree with this interpretation.  I'd come to the same
conclusions myself.  However, I happened to catch Brainstorm again
last night, and I noticed that the final scene, with the angels and
all that, occurred in Brace's (Christopher Walken's) mind after the
tape ran out!  This can be interpreted in (at least) two ways:

        a) Brace's mind was locked into "something beyond this
        world" by following the brain patterns of a dying person,
        and would have continued to the Beyond if his wife hadn't
        brought him back.

        b) Brace's mind was slightly deranged by "subjective
        impressions of random signals," and continued the sequence
        according to the dictates of his (Brace's!) religious
        training.  I think that the angels did not appear until
        after the tape ran out.

I don't think there's any evidence in the film that Trumbull
intended it either way.  As in any fiction with depth, there's room
for interpretation by the viewer.

Neat simile at the end: the conclusion of the film takes place at
Kitty Hawk.  The Wright Brothers' first flight was less than the
wingspan of a modern airliner.  This first 'flight' of Brainstorm
took us to the edge of Infinity...  where might we go from here?

This is a fine film about the development of a technology.  What's
Trumbull doing today?

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Brainstorm loose ends
Date: 27 Mar 85 02:43:38 GMT

It seems clear to me that the "brain death" interpretation is not
what was intended by the writer.  Such things as the angels and her
looking down upon her body clearly imply that what is being
experienced is the beginning of the afterlife, and not random
signals flickering through a crashing biocomputer.

The whole story is structured as a mystical quest to discover the
nature of the after-death experience.  What dramatic tension is
there in "I MUST find out what the subjective experience of brain
death is like!"

The issue is never mentioned in the movie.  No one speculates that
perhaps what she is experiencing is merely brain death.  The issue
obviously never occurred to the writer at all, or there would be
some mention of it.

Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking
ARPA:   Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K    uucp:   seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:     74176,1360      audio:  shout "Hey, Tim!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Mar 85 20:01:28-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #106

I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a
number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and
it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too. Anyone
else have any comment here?

Does anyone know if Bakshi has been doing anything else lately?
Outside of FRITZ THE CAT and WIZARDS, I don't think very much of his
work; in particular I abominate the repulsive LORD OF THE RINGS
(part 1) with the Amerind Strider and the roly-poly ents. I waited
with a bunch of friends four hours for the first showing at the
Ziegfield in New York, and can still feel disappointed and let down
if I try....

-Laurence

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Apr 85 0956-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #109
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 109.5

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams & Asprin & Bradley & Niven &
                     A Book Request & Book Request Answered,
             Films - Dr. Who & Star Trek IV & Movie Review
             Television - Dr. Who & 60's Show Request,
             Miscellaneous - New SF Book Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 09:33:48 EST
From: ny!longisland!novascotia!callahans!robinson@topaz
Subject: New Hitchhiker Book

   I saw an interview in a magazine with Doug Adams where he said he
was working on a new book in the Hitchhiker series.  The book will
be titled "Cricket, Anyone?".  Part of the story will be how Arthur
meets his American cousin, Bucky, and the two of them wind up
traveling through time to Camelot. Anyone else heard about this??

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 85 16:30:43 EST
From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA
Subject: Book Review - "The Mythbegotten Danger"

  "The Mythbegotten Danger" is the sixth book in the Robert Asprin
series involving the apprentice Skeeve and the Pervert (ah, excuse
me, Prevert!) Ahz. Ahz is, of course, the conniving magicker whom
Dworkin called into the world to impress Skeeve just as an assassin
bumped him off. Since the first novel ("Another Fine Myth") Skeeve
has been getting increasingly mature and competent, so it should
come as no surprise that in this latest novel he gets bored with
living at home (no MTV) and gets his own digs on the far side of the
Bazaar.
  However, as anyone who reads this series knows, nothing is ever
simple! Tensions flare between Skeeve and Ahz; so much, in fact,
that Ahz decides to teach Skeeve a lesson in humility and concocts a
scheme to put him in his place... once and for all!
  One fine day as Skeeve is out looking for bargains in the Bazaar,
a large and ferocious thing which looks like a milk bottle pours a
few gallons of white sticky fluid all over his tunic. Although
Skeeve is originally polite about the whole incident, anger flares
when he visits Tananda and she informs him of the true nature of the
spill!  Enraged, Skeeve grabs a new set of clothes from his small
closet and runs outside, where he is abducted by five Amazons who
don't like men very much. Later that day he is tied down to a giant
cucumber and made to recite cereal commercials while they abuse him.
After a couple of days of this Skeeve begs to be let free. The
leader of the group, Vagenella, says "sure" and coolly castrates
him!!
  Dumped in the most dangerous part of town, without money or
clothes (but with plenty of hickeys), Skeeve is forced to disguise
himself as a fashion model in order to earn some extra money for cab
fare.  While displaying a pink lace dress with black seam stockings
for a client, a sudden knocking at the door reveals a platoon of
Battledroids who state that Skeeve is wanted for treason by order of
the Imperial Brain-Bot in the district of Eybriem. A tremendous
fight ensues.  Skeeve rips his stockings and manages to short
circuit one of the `droids. However the resulting explosion creates
a serious space/time warp which sends them all hurtling into the far
distant future. Then the plot really gets complex, as Skeeve has to
evade the pursuing Battledroids while attempting to banish the
totalitarian leader E-D-Ameen Wajda, a Wombat with a terrible lisp.
  By the third chapter matters get totally out of hand, with
virtually every character who has ever been in any of the books
showing up (I refuse to reveal why)!!!
  To sum up, a resounding success for Mr. Asprin. By killing one of
the main characters he has gotten himself out of a literary rut and
has shifted the emphasis of the series. Also, the expanded size (640
pages) has enabled extensive character and plot development to take
place, an occurrence which never had a chance at being fulfilled
before. The return of Ahz's power and the resulting clash at the end
make for good reading, although the bloodletting tends to be a bit
excessive. Chapter 45 is particularly endearing, as Luanna and Ahz
marry atop the Love Moat.

*Steve*

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 95 21:40:07 EST
From: Charles Hedrick <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: New Darkover book

This book marks somewhat of a new trend in science fiction, as
well-known hard SF writer Dr. Forward has collaborated with Marian
Zimmer Bradley to produce a book that combines Bradley's typical
swords-and-sorcery outlook with careful handling of scientific
issues.  Entitled "Sharra's Revenge", this book deals with the
consequences of psychic power that gets out of control.  The book
begins with a group of fanatical feminist Sharra-worshipers who find
an ancient level 13 matrix weapon buried in a cave.  Those of you
who are familiar with the Darkover world will know that a level 13
matrix is nothing to fool around with.  Unfortunately, the feminist
cabal decides to use the weapon to rid the world of male chauvinist
pigs.  Because of the large number of such pigs on Darkover, the
resulting displacement of mass is sufficient to destabilize the star
Darkover.  This part of the story is told from the viewpoint of an
astronomer in the Terran research group.  One of the most exciting
parts of the book is his brilliant derivation (after 21 pages of
tensor mathematics, which is shown in full) of a new formulation of
Einstein's equation.  By using the quantum hagiodynamics of spin 5
bosons, he is able to .... Well, I think I should stop here in order
to avoid a spoiler rating.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 86 10:21:14 EST
From: down!wemadeit!wunderland!lookitthat!jinx!Schaeffer@topaz
Subject: Niven

  I just heard on the news on my way into work this morning that
Larry Niven had died.  The news reporter said:

"The famous SF author and winner of several Hugo and Nebula awards,
was died this morning.  Early reports indicate that he died from
starvation.

"His wife, known to the world as 'Fuzzy Pink' said that for the last
3 months, Larry was eating nothing but the fibrous root of a tree he
had found growing in the yard.

His last words according to his wife were, 'It grew wrong'.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 21:19:58 EST
From: ihnp4!allegra!ucb-vax!ut-sally!larry!moe!curly!sri-unix!purdue!d
From: ecvax!cornell!bugs-bunny!ncoast!hplabs!teklabs!mit-vax!seismo!uc
From: la-cs!duke!scgvaxd!harvard!hugo!csi!yale!princeton!fluke!decwrl!
From: coke!pegasus!uw-beaver!mordor!vortex!shasta!ccvaxa!pur-ee!dunce@
From: topaz
Subject: Book Request

I am trying to find a book that I read a few years ago.
Unfortunately I can't remember either the title or the author.  All
I remember is that I liked it a lot.  Any help in finding it would
be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 1 Apr 1985 03:24:43-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Help me Please!

> I am trying to find a book that I read a few years ago.
> Unfortunately I can't remember either the title or the author.
> All I remember is that I liked it a lot.  Any help in finding it
> would be appreciated.

        I believe the book you are looking for is "The
Planet-Strappers by Raymond Z. Gallun which was published by Pyramid
books sometime around 1962 if I remember correctly.

--- kaybee (Kerry Boyoboy, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyoboy
ARPA:   boyoboy%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 10:42:21 EST
From: fudd@mit-bugs-bunny
Subject: Dr. Who Film announced

  Warner Brothers announced today that they have bought the rights
to do a Dr. Who film.  In order to introduce the popular BBC
character to the American film audience he will be paired with
Warner Brothers most popular star.  The title of the film will be
"The TARDIS and the Hare."

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 12:55:17 EST
From: kns%genesis@afterworld
Subject: Star Trek IV

  In a recent interview with Harve Bennett on Entertainment Tonight,
he commented about the script he wrote for Star Trek IV : The Trial
of Captain Kirk.  According to Bennett:

  "I think it will be an excellent film.  The fans will be very
surprised to see that Kirk will actually be courtmartialed for his
actions in the previous movie.  There will be no cheap escape for
him as in the TV episode 'Courtmartial'.  Unfortunately I can say no
more at this time"

                       ****** SPOILER ******

ET also announced that they heard from inside sources at the studio
the following pieces of the plot:

1) Kirk will be sentenced to death and executed as a result of the
trial.

2) Spock will assume command of the new Enterprise but will be
caught once again in a radiation high environment.  This time he
will not die but will be put in a wheelchair like his former
commander, Captain Pike.  Sarek will state with perfect logic that
while the ancient Vulcans had devised a method for bringing people
back to life they have no way of curing severe radiation burn.

3) Doctor Chapel will dedicate her life to finding a cure for Spock.

4) Dr. McCoy will be killed in a freak transporter accident and his
atoms will be scattered throughout space.

5) Scotty will be so distraught over McCoys death that he goes on a
drinking spree and dies of heart failure.

6) Lieutenant Uhura will marry Mr. Sulu (it will be revealed that
they have been seeing each other secretely over the years.

 and finally:

7) Chekov will be assigned as an interpreter to the Melkots.

If these details are true it will probably mean the end of the Star
Trek movies and TV show although the characters may live on in
books.  I for one will be glad to see the end of Kirk and Spock.

                           K. Singh
                           kns%genesis@afterworld

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 14:54:34 EST
From: ahutb!leper@topaz (leper)
Subject: Review of new movie

   "The Herpes Menace" is the latest project by Paul Bartel, the
very funny guy who made "Eating Raoul" such a scream riot. This time
around Bartel exercises total control of the project: he writes,
directs, produces, stars, and edits this zany science fiction spoof.
 Rounding out the cast is Malcom Mcdowell as the clubfooted Swedish
scientist, Mary Steenburgen as the nymphomaniac who eats fish in bed,
and Rip Torn as the health inspector who sells mechanical pencils to
diabetic prostitutes.
   The rather obvious plot revolves around Trevor Menlabia
(McDowell), a man who, as a child, was tortured by his deranged
parents; his mother was particularly fond of piercing his nipples
with an old pair of black spiked heels! Menlabia is seen as the
founder of the ominous "Grey Matter Institute," an organization
involved in shady biological research. In a dream sequence
reminescent of those seen in "Eraserhead," Menlabia asks a punk
rocker if she will marry him and explain American foreign policy.
She agree's, but as the eerie music swells, a large polyp emerges
from her Jordache jeans, singing Hungarian love songs and
registering itself as a democrat. Menlabia goes crazy, and in a rage
orders chicken McNuggies from a fast food restaraunt. When next we
see him awake and in the lab, he is concocting a radioactive
suppository which will mutate the standard Herpes virus.
   Before you can say `huh?' the small town of Smear (New Jersey!)
is crawling with ravenous Herpes who look like a cross between a
young Annette Funicello and a bowl of lime Jello.
   Rick Action (Torn) is sent from California to investigate the odd
happenings, which include mutilations, pet munching, and cross
cultural dating. Soon thereafter he meets up with Alicia Rubble
(Steenburgen), a woman who is a cashier at a very small pharmacy.
The two of them form a somewhat `quirky' relationship while
discussing favorite TV commercials and then things get REALLY
strange!
   This film has to be seen to be believed; its daring, its arty,
its hilarious. The acting is right on target. The ONLY complaint
that I have is the length. At just under three hours(!!!) there
should obviously be some major editing to get it down to size. This
is the fault of Mr. Bartel, who is apparently new to this sort of
thing. Go see it when it hits general distribution, it's terrific!

                                Dark Leper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leper

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 12:18:04 EST
From: pita@falafel
Subject: Rumor from England

  Colin Baker, the actor currently appearing as Dr. Who has been
fired for an undisclosed reason.  They have hired actress Jane
Seymour to play the part of the Dr. when the Dr. returns to the BBC
after a 9 month hiatus.
  Says John Nathan Turner: "After more than 20 years on the air we
felt it was time for a few changes.  The audience is mostly white
males between the ages of 25 and 40 and we thought that we would
give them some of what they are really looking for.  Looking at the
flood of letters which arrived here demanding to see more of Peri
(or less) in swimsuits we felt that Ms. Seymour was an obvious
choice for the role of the doctor.  The chamelion circuit will once
more break down leaving the TARDIS shaped suspiciously like a
transparent shower stall.  We hope this move will also boost the
failing popularity of the show in America."
  Mr. Turner refused to comment any further on the events leading up
to these major changes in the show.  This will be however be the
first time in the history of the Time Lords that a regeneration will
involve a sex change.
  Also announced was a proposed change of times for the show to a
late night time period.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 85 14:25:54 EST
From: ccvaxine!dingbat@topaz
Subject: 60's Nostalgia

  On the subject of nostalgic shows, I seem to remember this show
from I think the late 60's that takes place on board this space
ship.
  If I remember correctly there were seven or eight main characters
including the captain and a doctor and every week they would
encounter this different alien race or solve this strange scientific
puzzle.
  The captain of the ship would always go charging into trouble and
getting bailed out by someone else, usually his science officer who
was an alien or some kind of robot. Oh, and I think he had pointy
ears or something strange like that.
  The show really wasn't that good and always had some phony way out
of the problem. I only watched it cause there was nothing else on at
the time.  I don't really remember too much about it.
  Anyone else remember this show?

                           dingbat
                       i8ahp6700!ineeda!ccvaxine!dingbat

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 85 12:37:03 EST
From: dun@utah-cs (Dun Seedy)
Subject: SF Book Club

  With all of the recent discussion on the SF Book of the Month Club
I thought you might want to hear about the ad I just saw in a recent
copy of "Amusing":

  "Announcing the newest addition to the ranks of book of the month
clubs, the all new "Worst Paperback SF Book of the Month".
  When you subscribe you will receive each month a listing of the
month's selections which will include the worst books published in
Science Fiction.  All you need do is throw away the inclosed
postcard and the books will be forwarded to you automatically.  If
you don't wish the main selection or any of the alternates just
write on the back of the postcard "You've got to be kidding, right?"
and drop it in the mail slot.  All books will be sent to you under
4th class mail and should arrive in a few short years.
  Current main selection include such classics as "The Vulcan
Academy Murders" by Kagan, "Quag Starbrite" by Berry, "The Life,
Times, Troubles and Tribulations of the Lensmen" by Kyle, "The World
According to Warbucks" by Bruce Smith and many more!!
  And how much would you expect to pay for books of this quality in
book stores?  $3.95?  $5.95?  $9.95??  Well each book is sent to you
for 90% off of the publisher's price!!  This means that most of
these books can be yours for less than a dollar!!
  Enroll now in this brand new club."

Dun Seedy     University of Utah CS Dept    dun@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 34C-26-32     decvax!utah-cs!dun

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Apr 85 1023-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #110
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:

             Administrivia - Aprilogies,
             Books - Spinrad & Miss Manners (2 msgs) &
                     Reviews,
             Films - Brainstorm (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 85 11:16:37 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Aprilogies

        For those of you who didn't notice, issue #109 of SF-LOVERS
was the first (and possibly last) April Fools Issue.  I would like
to take a moment to apologize to anyone who may have been offended
by the contents or therein.  Send your tax deductable comments and
complaints to sf-lovers-request@rutgers.
        I would also like to thank the people here at Rutgers who
helped me write material for the issue. They have begged to remain
anonymous but since I don't want ALL the blame they were: Charles
Hedrick, Steve Sherman and Fred Kiesche.
        And now...guys put down that ax please.  Guys?! GUYS!!!

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: New edition of RIDING THE TORCH
Date: 27 Mar 85 17:49:14 GMT

                 RIDING THE TORCH by Norman Spinrad
                       Bluejay, 1985, $6.95.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper
     Hoy Cow!  I just got my hands on a new Bluejay book.  The book
is Norman Spinrad's RIDING THE TORCH.  It goes for $6.95.  The story
is 144 pages long, padded out with MUCHO blank pages and internal
illustrations.  There probably are no more than 100 pages of story.
With all these vacation pages, you'd think the work pages are pretty
full of text, huh?  No way, Jose.  Admittedly this is a trade
paperback so the pages are bigger, but there is a one inch margin at
the bottom of a page, another one up the sides, three quarters of an
inch at the top.  If Fermat had had margins like that mathematicians
everywhere would be working on the Goldbach conjecture!  Ah, but the
text itself.  With all that margin, they must have fine print,
right?  Nope.  It's all set in Flight-to-the-Mushroom-Planet pica.
Even with inflated movie ticket prices, it is now much cheaper to
see ten minutes of film than to read ten minutes of book.  Now
admittedly there is an afterword by one Jim Frenkel, who just
happens to be the publisher, and another afterword by Dr. Robert
Forward but even so, that's not what you buy the book for.
     Tom Kidd's internal art is not his best work and at times is a
long way from his best work.  It isn't helped by the fact that often
the illustrations are on inappropriate pages.  As an illustration
for the story his cover is much better, but then, that may be why
it's on the cover, or being on the cover may be why it's good.
     Now I may not be the world's best person to review the story
itself.  Spinrad is heavily into writing style, and frankly, I
prefer ideas.  I'd rather read a story by Forward with an afterword
by Spinrad than the other way around.  Ah, but 'twas not to be.
Spinrad sets his story on a fleet of generation ships, but he does
not seem to show any great understanding of what life might be like
on a generation ship--again, he is a man more of style than of
ideas.  The main character is sort of an interior decorator and
artist and as such may well be one of the least interesting people
in the fleet.  After the story Forward tells the reader about
Bussard engines and the Fermi Paradox.  Spinrad might understand
both concepts, but in the story they seem to be used without being
really understood.  Forward's afterword (!) might fit as well after
TAU ZERO.  There are probably more science fictional ideas in
Forward's short afterword than in Spinrad's story.
     Spinrad's tale concludes with a sort of story within a story
within a story of a discussion between God and the Devil discussing
man.  It's the best part of the novella, but it mostly serves to
remind us how much better George Bernard Shaw was at this sort of
thing.
     RIDING THE TORCH is probably NOT the best way a science fiction
fan can spend $6.95.

------------------------------

From: digi-g!brian@topaz.arpa (Brian Westley)
Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot...
Date: 26 Mar 85 21:20:22 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
> For those who are interested, [my ten best english writers list
> includes] ..., Judith Martin (aka Miss Manners),...

C'mon, Steve!  Miss Manners?!  With her cloying "Gentle Reader" and
referring to herself in the third person ("Miss Manners hates it
when people throw up at cocktail parties and rush off to the
hospital without even saying 'Excuse me, I must go; I've
regurgitated my liver'").  Her writing style makes me want to
squeeze her head in a pneumatic press until she screams "STOP! STOP!
STOP!" just so I can admonish her with a "SAY PLEEEEEASE!!"

My ten best list of Arabic digits (in no particular order):
9472018653

Merlyn Leroy

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot...
Date: 27 Mar 85 16:14:24 GMT

> C'mon, Steve!  Miss Manners?!  With her cloying "Gentle Reader"
> and referring to herself in the third person ("Miss Manners hates
> it when people throw up at cocktail parties and rush off to the
> hospital without even saying 'Excuse me, I must go; I've
> regurgitated my liver'").  Her writing style makes me want to
> squeeze her head in a pneumatic press until she screams "STOP!
> STOP! STOP!" just so I can admonish her with a "SAY PLEEEEEASE!!"

There, there.  Put your head on Mister Writer's shoulder and he'll
hold you until you're done.  There.  Feel better?  Now let Mister
Writer explain why he so adores dear Miss Manners.

Mister Writer appreciates the time you are taking to respond to this
rather delicate issue, but wonders if you have, in fact, taken the
time to read carefully.  Mister Writer finds Miss Manners style a
pure delight, and is saddened that there aren't more readers who
appreciate complete mastery of the language blended with a gently
ironic touch of nineteenth century Romanticism.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 21:31:44 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Reviews: Aldiss, Russ, Swanwick, Davidson, misc.

Some miscellaneous reviews of books I've seen recently which other
readers might be curious about...

HELLICONIA SUMMER.  Brian Aldiss.  Berkley, c1983.  This is the
middle volume of the Helliconia trilogy; the first volume is
HELLICONIA SPRING and the last volume, now out in hardcover, is
HELLICONIA WINTER.  The principle conceit of the books is that there
is a planet named Helliconia which is inhabited by two intelligent
species, the warmth-loving humans and the cold-loving phagors, and
this planet circles a relatively dim star that in turn makes a very
eccentric orbit about a very bright star, once every 2600 Earth
years.  In that span of time history is recapitulated, from ice age
hunting societies to high civilization.  In SUMMER Helliconia and
its primary are approaching periastron with the bright star, and a
Renaissance-like culture is arising in the principal nations of the
main equatorial continent.  The plot follows the tragedy of King
JandolAnganol's reign in Borlien, with many discursive excursions
covering technology, politics and history, but gradually leading up
to a thoroughly melodramatic finale.  The book has some nice moments
-- Aldiss is best when he finds humor in a situation, and the climax
is nicely wrought -- but the pace is very leisurely, almost to the
point of tedium.  I was left with the familiar feeling that I ought
to have liked the novel better...

EXTRA(ORDINARY) PEOPLE.  Joanna Russ.  St. Martin's, c1984.  This is
a collection containing one novella and four stories; the novella is
'Souls', which won a Hugo in 1983.  'Souls' is an excellent story set
in Germany during the Dark Ages -- it's a classic ugly duckling tale
with a small twist...  'The Mystery of the Young Gentleman'
similarly chooses to examine human beings (?) with peculiar powers
but is more playful in tone; it is likably rude as it destroys
sexual stereotypes on a 19th-century ocean voyage.  'Bodies' is
about the sexual escapades of two 20th-century people, a woman and a
male homosexual, who are brought forward into a future utopia where
sexual characteristics as well as sexual behavior have radically
changed, to their bemusement.  'What Did You Do During the
Revolution, Grandma?' is a comedy set around a set of parallel
worlds like those in Vance's 'Rumfuddle', where a middle-aged woman
is altered to resemble a black male god and is sent as a
representative to a medieval culture on a parallel Earth.  'Everyday
Depressions' is a series of funny letters to a friend describing the
writing of the world's first (and perhaps only) lesbian Gothic
romance.  Although I did some head-scratching here and there, I
liked the stories in general, and didn't feel intimidated by a
subtle contempt for straights which appears in some gay writing.

IN THE DRIFT.  Michael Swanwick.  Ace Specials, c1985.  This is the
latest of the new Ace Specials, which have been mostly excellent and
have produced the first book-length works of such good new writers
as Lucius Shepard, Kim Stanley Robinson and William Gibson.  IN THE
DRIFT is a collection of Michael Swanwick's Drift stories, set in a
future where a meltdown at TMI has contaminated large areas of the
continent and mostly destroyed civilization in the Northeast US.
'Mummer Kiss' takes place in Philadelphia, on the border of the
Drift, where the Mummers have become the city government and a kiss
from the King Clown on the day of the Mummers' Parade can mean
death...  'Boneseeker' is the story of a girl with a mysterious
talent who is drawn into the dirty politics of neighboring countries
competing for the resources of the Drift.  'Marrow Death' (a Nebula
Award nominee) tells how another such girl, escaping from the
maelstrom of politics in totalitarian Boston, has a mystical
encounter with the Reactor...  The stories are generally very
tightly constructed and tautly paced, and I have the feeling that
Swanwick at his best is going to be the modern master of Alfred
Bester's classic technique of plot compression.  IN THE DRIFT,
however, is not a novel, and while the individual stories are very
good, I'm waiting to read what Swanwick can produce at a greater
length and density of material.

Miscellaneous Dept.: Mark Ziesing has been kind enough to dig up
some old Avram Davidson books for me, and I've gradually been
working through them over the last month or two, pacing myself so as
not to glut...  Some of the novels are pretty uninteresting, but a
couple were surprises.  CLASH OF STAR-KINGS has a rather purple
title for a fantasy story about the return of the old gods of Mexico
to a small town in the high mountains near the Federal District; it
is a wonderful portrayal of Mexico and the Americans who live there,
and the quasi-SF plot is very cleverly done.  THE REDWARD EDWARD
PAPERS is a short novel contained in the collection of the same
name.  The collection has a few notable and oft-collected stories
such as 'Sacheverell' and 'Dagon' (a real favorite of mine), but the
PAPERS are the real star of this book and I think they are the best
Davidson I've have ever read, and that says a lot.  Dare I quote?
Of course:

     'I understand that you're a professor of writing at an art
     college,' the young man said, causing to materialize before
     them two glasses whose provenance Edward was unable to
     determine upon immediate thought, but which he ascertained (by
     the simple method of sampling both, and would one man in one
     thousand have hit upon this simple method, which, amplifying
     the genius of simplicity, recalled Columbus' trick with the
     salt and the egg?  No.) contained some ice and soda water with
     two balls of malt in them; 'and I would appreciate your
     kindness when you realize that I've just obtained a position as
     Area Representative of the Blessed Virgin of the Month Club --'

     Edward said, '-- Ah --'

     -- and the young man said, agitating Redward Edward's
     coatsleeve, said, with great haste and infinite reproach, 'Now
     don't misunderstand me, say, what do you take me for, don't I
     know that you are of an opposite persuasion --'

     'I am?'  Edward was surprised and intrigued at this way of
     putting his three-generational absence of any denominational
     affiliation whatsoever.  'You do?  Would you happen to remember
     who it was that persuaded me?'

&c., following Edward through a bizarre and hilarious series of
alternate universes.  I was reading this on the flight back from
Dallas after the Usenix conference in January and I think I must
have been an annoyance and a puzzlement to the people sitting around
me, because I would irrepressibly burst out laughing from time to
time...  According to LOCUS Davidson is currently recovering from a
series of small strokes at a Veterans' Home in Washington and
'welcomes' letters to the address 'PO Box 685, Retsil WA, 98378',
letters which I ought to be writing instead of this...  Any other
Davidson fans out there?

I finally got around to reading David Brin's SUNDIVER and STARTIDE
RISING, and while I thought they were fun to read, I was expecting
more...  Or maybe I wanted less: less melodrama and fewer
exclamation points, perhaps.  The books felt like well-bred Piers
Anthony novels.  Oh well...  Michael Bishop's new anthology LIGHT
YEARS AND DARK, which samples the work of 43 New-Wave and post-New
Wave writers, has some original material in it as well as some
golden oldies (oldies? from the '60s?).  Of the originals, I really
liked 'The Map' by Gene Wolfe, a story set in the New Sun universe;
'Strangeness, Charm and Spin' by Kate Wilhelm, about a science
teacher and improbability; 'When the Music's Over...' by Michael
Swanwick, a rather blood-curdling explanation for the mysterious
deaths of '60s rock stars; 'The (Tale) of the (Man) Who (Met) (God)'
by Norman Spinrad, a little philosophical gem; 'The Nine Billion
Names of God' by Carter Scholz (yes, that's the title), which is so
funny I'm almost ready to forgive Scholz his awful first novel; 'The
Cure' by Lisa Tuttle, in which the world is cured of human
suffering, at a curious cost; and George Zebrowski's 'The Eichmann
Variations' (a Nebula nominee), in which World War II's slightly
different ending has a significant impact on compensation for the
Holocaust...

Rambling on too long, as usual,
Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM)
Date: 26 Mar 85 22:56:56 GMT

tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes:
>The device in Brainstorm did have a number of interesting
>possibilities.  However, seeing the after-death experience is not
>one of them, so the discussion as it stands is moot.  There would
>be no way for the device to pick up information once brain-death
>occurred.  In the movie, it just blithely continues to record the
>experiences of her soul.  No doubt this was made possible by new
>astral plane technology they didn't bother to tell us about.
>Right.

Well, actually, all the technology has to do is record sensory
impressions.  It looked to me like what they are saying is that "you
really do go to heaven, amen, huzzah" but that it's all just an
hallucination caused by deteriorating brain function as the brain
slowly dies.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 85 14:15:48 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Brainstorm loose ends

"I noticed that the final scene, with the angels and all that,
occurred in Brace's (Christopher Walken's) mind after the tape ran
out!"

Easily explained by huge amounts of buffering in the portable unit.
Remember that they were sending this signal over phone lines.  One
can imagine the rate of data transfer not matching the rate of
playback.  (Though if pressed, I would agree they would need all the
bandwidth they could get.)

        - Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Apr 85 1045-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Apr 85 1045-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #111
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:

         Books - Asimov & Brust (4 msgs) & Hogan (3 msgs),
         Films - "Sex Mission",
         Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat 30 Mar 85 15:16:28-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Asimov's Physical Address

Asimov is listed in the New York City phone book. I think he has an
apartment on W. 65 st. or somesuch.

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Date: 28 Mar 85 16:20:32 GMT

> Now, Steven, when are we going to find out what happened at
> Deathsgate Falls?
>
> Kent Beck
> uucp: tektronix!tekchips!kentb
> CSNet:        kentb@tektronix

Dunno.  It will appear, if at all, in a book called EASTERNER that
will be the "first" of the Vlad novels.  Chances are that it will be
written after some unknown (but probably weird) book that will be
written after TECKLA, which I am at work on now.  If TECKLA weren't
going to damn slowly I'd have a better idea.  Thanks for asking.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: mit-athena!micah@topaz.arpa (Micah P Doyle)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Date: 29 Mar 85 02:49:32 GMT

>> From: hmiller@mit-speaker (Herbert A Miller)

>>     I have several friends who, along with myself, have read both
>> "Jhereg" and "Yendi" and we all came away from these books dying
>> for more!
>>
>>     However, two questions come to mind, concerning these novels:
>>
>>      1) Why was "Jhereg" published first, followed by "Yendi"?
>>       The chronological order, should be:
>>              "Jhereg" prologue, "Yendi", "Jhereg" body.
>>       If the books are read in order of publication, then
>>       "Jhereg" gives away a lot of the action that should
>>       be a suprise in "Yendi".
>>
>> ...
> From: tektronix!tekchips!kentb (Kent Beck)
>

>Don't believe it for a minute.  These novels were written to be
>read backwards...There is far more information given away reading
>"Yendi" first than the other way around.  One of the beauties of
>these books is that "Jhereg" sets up several puzzles that are
>solved in "Yendi," and they are intended to be read that way...

I'm have to agree with Herbert Miller.  I read the books in
chronological order and am very glad I did.  Maybe there are some
surprises given away by reading them in the "wrong" order, but I was
much more interested in what happened to the characters than
solutions to puzzles.  I think I would have liked "Yendi" much less
if I knew beforehand which characters survived, who marries who,
etc.; that would have spoiled most of the suspense in the book.

I had never heard of these books until about a month ago when I just
happened to be around our local science-fiction library when someone
was raving about them.  Few people I've mentioned them to have heard
about them either.  Steven Brust has written some of the best books
I've read in a long time, and I just don't understand how such
excellent books can remain so obscure.

Stephen Brust also has a new book coming out in May.  I don't know
whether or not it's a sequal to "Jhereg" and "Yendi", but since Mr.
Brust reads this newsgroup, perhaps he can tell us a little about
the book himself (pretty please?).

                                Micah Doyle
                                micah@mit-athena.ARPA
                                decvax!mit-athena!micah

------------------------------

Date: Sun 31 Mar 85 23:08:46-EST
From: last
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #108

> Anyway, the order of
> books to date (and future) is:
>                JHEREG
>                TO REIGN IN HELL
>                YENDI
>                BROKEDOWN PALACE (Jan. '86)
>                TECKLA (In progress).

I haven't seen _To_Reign_In_Hell_ anywhere.  Who's the publisher?
How much is it?

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Brust's plan for Negative REcommendations
Date: 30 Mar 85 14:12:43 GMT

One James Branch Cabell book I own includes at the back reviews of
all his other books -- all negative, many of them explaining in
particular what pornographic trash JURGEN is.  All except for one
book, for which the reviewers joined in praising the illustrations.
(This page of the review bears at the bottom a note by the
publishers saying that this book is no longer published with the
illustratins.)

Perhaps publishers had more of a sense of humor in those days.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: ukma!red@topaz.arpa (Red Varth)
Subject: Good trilogy
Date: 29 Mar 85 19:28:17 GMT

Allow me to recommend "Inheirit the Stars", "The Gentle Giants of
Ganymede", and "Giants' Star" by James P. Hogan. I don't want to
spoil the plot, for anyone, so I won't say too much.

"Inheirit the Stars" is about what happens when an exploration team
discovers a man on the moon in about 2000 A.D. Man -- genus Homo,
species sapiens. The only problem with this is that he died ca. 50K
years ago.

This one is a lot of science, not so much fiction. But it's a real
good yarn.  I can't say anything about the 2nd and 3rd book without
spoiling the first, so I'll stop.

Any other opinions out there?

                        Red

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz.arpa (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: Good trilogy
Date: 31 Mar 85 06:11:52 GMT

> From: red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth)
> Allow me to recommend "Inheirit the Stars", "The Gentle Giants of
> Ganymede", and "Giants' Star" by James P. Hogan. . . .  Any other
> opinions out there?

Yes, these are a favorite of mine too.  I especialy liked the
interplay between the head researcher and the biologist (names
forgotten).  Also the "trick tactics" near the end of "Giant's
Star."
                                           John L. Templer
                                     University of Texas at Austin
       {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Good trilogy (Inherit the Stars/G.Giants of G./G's Star)
Date: 31 Mar 85 07:22:11 GMT

They were (like all of Hogan's work) a lot of fun, but I think he
went a bit overboard after the first novel.  I don't want to say
anything spoilerish so I'd better stop here ...

In-Real-Life:
Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: Filmex: "Sex Mission"
Date: 27 Mar 85 07:37:41 GMT

     An unlikely Polish film with the unlikely title of "Sex
Mission" is, so far as I am concerned, the hit of Filmex.  It's
definitely the best film I've seen in the festival so far, and I can
but hope it receives wide US release.  "Sex Mission" is funny and
provocative, managing the rare task of being intellectually
interesting and viscerally enjoyable.

     The story starts out ten years in the future.  Two Polish men
are about to be put into hibernation for three years in the first
human test of a new suspended animation process.  When they awake,
though, things aren't at all as they expected.  Fifty years have
passed, there has been an atomic war, and, due to a fearsome new
weapon, all men have been destroyed.  But not all women.  A whole
society of them exists, and they are the ones who wake our heroes.

     In the new society, which reproduces by a form of
parthenogenesis, men are remembered as fearsome oppressors who,
armed with such dreadful devices of torture as straight razors and
corkscrews, terrorized women.  Not to such an extent that famous
women like Einstein were unable to make their discoveries, however.
The relatively benign Archaeology section which discovered the frozen
men favors "naturalization".  (Think about it.)  The fanatic and
dictatorial Genetics section wants to perform certain unspecified
but doubtlessly nasty experiments, after which the men will be
disposed of.  Any resemblances to a couple of Eastern European
countries is strictly coincidental, of course, as director Juliusz
Machulski would be the first to insist.  None the less, it is
profitable to reflect that "Sex Mission" is a Polish film which
could never have been made in, say, the USSR.

     Let's get one thing straight, though: there is absolutely
nothing heavy handed about "Sex Mission".  If you don't want to
think of it as satire, fine, it's a great science fiction slapstick
comedy.  Machulski, a first time director and the youngest Polish
director, has wonderful comedic timing and is able to make old bits
like the foot-in-the-bucket schtick come to new life.  The script,
even in translation, is hilarious.  "Sex Mission" is a real audience
pleaser.

     Machulski is aided and abetted by an excellent cast, led by
Olgierd Lukaszewicz and Jerzy Stuhr as the mismatched pair of men in
a strange new world that has such people in it, and Bozena
Stryjkowna as the scientist from Archaeology who begins to have
doubts about her society.  All three are fine comedians and
excellent actors.

     Some feminists may find "Sex Mission" rather offensive,
suggesting as it does that a society composed completely of women
could possibly be intolerant or oppressive.  They will also object,
with some truth, that Machulski indulges rather heavily in female
nudity.  (I must confess, sexist pig that I am, that the latter
didn't bother *me* a bit.)  Tough luck.  Probably the same group of
"feminists" are working for the passage of the current
anti-pornography laws, and have none of my sympathy.  True feminists
will recognize that "Sex Mission" isn't about feminism, anyway, but
about totalitarianism.  In fact, "Sex Mission" would make an
excellent double feature with "1984" (preferably as the second
feature, to cheer the audience up).  The fact that such a savagely
funny satire could be made with state money in a Communist country
under martial law surprised me more than a little, and must surely
be a good sign of some sort.

     At the moment, "Sex Mission's" American release is rather
uncertain, lying in the hands of the Polish government and US film
distributors, an unsavory match indeed.  Should an opportunity arise
to see it, then, I strongly advise that you do not miss "Sex
Mission".
                      Peter Reiher
                      reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                      {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who
Date: 28 Mar 85 05:36:11 GMT

> ... and the other the very good part of Tristan Farnon in the TV
> series All Creatures Great and Small, adapted from James Herriot's
> semi-autobiographical books about his life as a veterinarian in
> Yorkshire during the 30's.  Not science-fiction at all, but
> wonderful stories nevertheless.  Davison is very believable and
> sympathetic as Tristan.  Unfortunately I've had no chance to see
> him as the Doctor, because in our area (Orange County, south of
> Los Angeles), they are only showing the Tom Baker episodes:
> Logopolis, which ended with Baker regenerating into Davison, was
> followed immediately by Robot, which starts with Jon Pertwee
> regenerating into Baker.  So I am still waiting for Davison.

I find Davison as the Doctor quite charming, as are the rest of the
Doctors. One point that you might find interesting: I heard John
Nathan-Turner (the current Dr. Who producer) say that he wanted a
younger Doctor to replace Baker. He was looking around for another,
when he saw Davison on "All Creatures..." he called him up the next
day, and the search was over....

>    By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and
> Colin Baker?

> On the same program where I saw J N-T say the above, I also heard
him say: "Nope, no connection at all...."

                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Sun 31 Mar 85 22:33:12-EST
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: The official BBC position on Doctor Who

[Last week, I received the following form letter in reply to my
message to the head of BBC regarding potential cancellation of
Doctor Who.]

Dear Mr. Seiler,
        Thank you for your recent letter, which I have been asked to
acknowledge.

        We are sorry that you should be so concerned about the
decision to 'rest' "Doctor Who".  In broadcasting, no programme can,
of course, be regarded as an entirely fixed institution, but time
for reflection on a programme's future is seldom time wasted.  What
will, in fact, happen, is that in 1986 "Doctor Who" will be on the
air, as it has been for each of the past twenty-two years.  It will,
however, return to what was until recently its traditional placing
in the Autum, and each episode will be produced at the traditional
twenty-five minute duration.

        The producer and his team welcome the return to the old
form, which will enable them to concentrate on the essential themes
which have proved so popular over the years.  Shorter programmes
will mean that it will be possible to present a longer series,
extending over a greater number of weeks.

        Thank you for writing your letter.  We appreciate your
interest in writing, and shall bear all your comments in mind.

                                Yours sincerely,
                                Jane Barrow (Miss)
                                Programme Correspodence Section

------------------------------

Date: Sun 31 Mar 85 23:00:02-EST
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Doctor Who Companions

I'd like to add a new category: most butchered by writers and
directors.  That companion is obviously Adric.  He started out
great!  The episode where they met Nyssa is an example of Adric at
his best (I particulary liked the scene where he borrows Nyssa's
brooch to pick a lock - couldn't tell whether he gave it back).  But
unfortunately, as Matthew Waterhouse explained at a con, none of the
writers or directors on Doctor Who had children older than about 5
years, and so none of them knew what an intelligent 15 year old
should act like.  Especially with the regeneration to Peter Davison,
Adric became a real dork - at one point complaining to Nyssa "You
know that I'm not any good with my hands!".  In age, Adric suddenly
regressed to 12 or less, in temperment he suddenly became sulky and
unreliable, and in mental acuity he suddenly became completely
credulous.  ("Be more innocent!" the director kept telling him.)
After two years as a companion, Matthew Waterhous decided that it
was time to move on (he is now doing a lot of theater - excuse me,
theatre - work), so they gave him a good exit.  In that last
episode, especially at the end, we finally see a little of the
original Adric.

Leela is probably my favorite companion so far, although the writers
made her gloat first and strike later on a number of occasions - a
mistake the REAL Leela would never make.  And other such idiocies.
But by and large, her character is nicely consistent as a hunter (or
"huntress", if you prefer), who is uneducated but quite intelligent
(I didn't realize the latter for some time).

For the category of "most improved on repeated viewings", I nominate
Harry.  Good old blithering idiot Harry (I'm talking only about the
Tom Baker episodes), who I finally realized is not really a
blithering idiot, he is just totally out of his depth.  The British
are good at spoofing themselves.

Finally, in SF-Lovers #101, Deryk asks "Who is number 1?"  I don't
think so - sounds more like the Master's style.

        Larry Seiler

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Apr 85 1113-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #112
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 2 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Disch & Heinlein & King &
                     Best Books (3 msgs) &
                     Memory Recording Stories (2 msgs),
             Films - Sex Mission & Silent Running,
             Television - The Last Episode of V

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 11:52 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Asimov Question in SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #107

Gaylene--According to the editorials in his (Asimov's) SF magazine,
he's still writing and alive (of course mag articles are done months
ahead of pub dates!), in fact, I know he did at least one editorial
on the subject of his 'illness'.  I forget the title of the magazine
since I am a subscriber--I really read what's between the covers and
look at the picture(s) on the cover rather than read the cover!
Normally, you can write author's care of their publishers--both book
and magazine pubs.
    Sorry I don't have better info.  --Roz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 85 21:28:32 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Disch, Snyder

  I am halfway through Disch's "The Genocides", and it is without
doubt the most depressing sf-book I've ever read.  It seems very
well written though - As well done as Guy Snyder's "Testament XXI -
The Book of the Twice Damned" or "The Lord's Pink Ocean" (Walker?),
or even "A Canticle for Leibowitz" (Miller?), somewhat less downbeat
collapse novels.  All are excellent books addressing the issues more
superficial works like "Day of the Triffids" (Wyndham?), or
"Lucifer's Hammer" (Niven & Pournelle) give short shift.

  I am not sure where "Deus Irae" (Dick & Zelazny) fits in - perhaps
in counterpoint, never serious, never quite real.  Of all these
Testament is my favorite.  Who is Guy Snyder anyway?

                                             Steve

------------------------------

From: hou2b!reh1366@topaz.arpa (R.HOWARD)
Subject: Re: The Number of the Beast
Date: 29 Mar 85 05:01:55 GMT

Having read most of the books discussed in TNoTB, I found it rather
interesting.  One thing I didn't get, though, was the true nature of
"mellrooney" Tom Easton of Analog claimed that it was an anagram,
but it must be from a work with which I am unfamiliar.  Just who was
the Beast?  Thanks

Rich Howard
Bell Labs
Holmdel, NJ
hou2b!reh1366

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 85 18:52:08 pst
From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley
Subject: Eyes of the Dragon (short review)

        Somebody asked for a review of Eyes of the Dragon. As I am
one of the select many (~1500 people probably own the book right
now) who has read the thing, I thought I'd give it all a spin.

        Eyes of the Dragon is Stephen Kings first "childrens" book.
It is about a young prince falsely convicted of murdering his
father, a very nasty wizard who set him up (his name is Flagg, but
he bears little resemblance to the character in the Stand), and
various and sundry players.

        As a straight novel, it suffers from being written as a
childrens book. There are a number of simplistic explanations, and
"wide eyed" descriptions, which slow down the books pace for adult
readers. Also as with most childrens books, the people are mostly
either good or evil with very few shades of grey.

        As a childrens book, it suffers from some adult concepts
that would either confuse, or slow down the story. The king
complains at one point of his impotence and how it effects his life
and relations with his wife, and how he doesn't really like women.
There are a couple of these concepts floating about which make this
less than wonderful as a childrens book.

        As far as the story goes, while it is well written (as is
most if not all of King's work) it is no great shakes. It is a
fairly standard adventure yarn with most people living happily ever
after, and there aren't any real surprises.

        I would generally reate the book at about a "B-" grade, a
decent read, but no great shakes. I'm not at all sure 'tho that I
would give it to any of my kids to read (even if I had any).

                        Joe Kalash
                        unisoft!kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 26 Mar 85 16:33:51 GMT

>>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
>>SF Book of all time .
>
>>>No.  The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger
>>>Zelazny.  It is also the best English Language book written in
>>>the twentieth century.
>
>>>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very
>>>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings".
>
>Please, people, you're just begging for flames with postings like
>this. Each of us has books/films/songs that he or she is
>particularly fond of, but personal preference may have little to do
>with how well a particular work is received by other
>readers/viewers/listeners.  You can save yourself trouble by
>qualifying your claims with a simple "in my opinion" or "the best
>I've ever." Enough said.

There are several reasons for making a statement such as the above.
First and foremost, in my case, I felt like it.  I knew quite well
what I was getting into.  Another reason is that such comments are
quite good methods of starting the sort of discussion I've been
having with stever and some others.  I have been enjoying it a
great deal.

Yet again, it ought to be clear that the fewer qualifiers used, the
stronger the statement is.  Have read Strunk and White's THE
ELEMENTS OF STYLE?  It is the best book on English usage...never
mind.

Another reason is that some of us like to "peg" ourselves.  As soon
as I made that statement, some alert people learned a great deal
about me.  More didn't, and still more couldn't care less, but for
those few it was a service.  "Oh," the said to themselves.  "He's
one of THOSE."

Another possible reason is as a "Turkey Detector."  That is, anyone
who doesn't see the implied In My Opinion in those statements, and
consequently Flames, is letting us know something about him.

Which of these applied to which comments I don't know.  There are
certainly some other reasons I missed, too, but I hope this gives a
general idea.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot...
Date: 26 Mar 85 17:06:05 GMT

> I agree with your opinion with those people I've read (Zelazny,
> Yolan & Wolfe).  I'm running right out to look at all those
> others!  But I must protest a serious omission: John Crowley.  He
> has done some great stuff, "Little, Big" in particular.  Orson
> Scott Card is also at least an honorable mention.  Good stuff!

I agree completely that Card gets an honorable mention.  Crowley was
a deliberate omission--but a difficult one.  "Little, Big" is an
outstanding book.  If only Crowley were the littlest bit more
accessible OR more consistent.  That is the same reason I didn't
(quite) put Delany on the list.  Both of these writers are
outstanding, however.

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 26 Mar 85 15:53:52 GMT

> ...  SONGMASTER, in my humble opinion, falls apart at the end,
> although it is tremendous up until then.

Let's pick some nits.  I have to disagree with you here.  All books
must end sometime (though I'm beginning to believe XANTH will go on
forever) and how the book ends quite diverse and varies a good deal.
I found the end of SONGMASTER quite refreshing.  Its not the "and
everyone lived happily ever after", nor is it "and everyone died and
all was depressing and dark" nor "and Joe went home to grow wheat,
Same went in search of the mysteries of the Universe, me ..."  ala
lol instead SONGMASTER had a delicately bittersweet ending and which
though sad, didn't leave me sad.  A rather insightfull ending in
which a man with a rather unhappy life left his mark for posterity
not linked to his name but rather to the most important facet of his
life, his song.  The reason I have a hard time coming up with a
"best" book is that all these books have things about them unusual
and outstanding.  > RIDDLE OF > STARS is very good, but not up their
with the others.  What I liked about RIDDLE OF STARS was not so much
the writing which at times was confusing and obtuse but, the very
deep sense of a common but very good man caught in the tempest and
his hardening and alteration.  I was caught up by the majestic tone
and feeling of his ascension to the high one.  > Neither > Bradley
or Eddings are quite good enough word-smiths.  > Bradley tends more
toward the world of the mind, the internal conflict.  Perhaps she is
not in the same class but some of her later books are awfully good.
Eddings is definitely not a heavy read, one simply doesn't get a
mystery or awe from any of his characters.  The reason I believe
this to be true is that he shows all his characters even the awesome
ones as humans with their foibles intact.  Elf equivalents are
conspicuously absent (beings with awesome powers that can do no
wrong which many writers tend to use as a crutch).  His characters
are so accessible as to make it difficult to see them as anything
out of the ordinary but, I found this unusual and actually quite
pleasant.  Wonderfully funny, especially in his use of anachronistic
behavior by the characters.  Certainly vastly different from Lord of
Light and lacking much of its inner meaning, but then I'm not so
sure I'm that fascinated by inner meaning anyway.

I evaluate books by a more ad hoc scale.

a)  The book must grip and not let go.
b)  I don't care if the book was wonderful for its time, it must
    be wonderful for MY time, unreadable old-style english need not
    apply.  I think a book should be evaluated without regard for
    the place and position of the author and any acclaim the book
    may have received.
c)  Symbolism stinks, virtually always societal, culture, and time
    oriented, misplace any of these and you have an unreadable piece
    of trash.  No thanks.
d)  I want the book to move me, how or where it moves me will largely
    affect my feelings for the book.
e)  The characters should feel real and I should care about them (not
    always a requirement but it certainly helps).
f) I don't go through a book with a note pad finding inner meaning.
    If it's there it often adds depth to the book but in any case
    will not vastly affect my personal opinion on how the book
    rates.

Enough.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: timeinc!dwight@topaz.arpa (Dwight Ernest)
Subject: Re: Memory recording stories
Date: 28 Mar 85 14:46:09 GMT

Yes, there are dozens more stories on this topic of memory
recording, including Silverberg "Majipoor Chronicles."  Highly
recommended.

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (cobb)
Subject: Another memory-recording story
Date: 29 Mar 85 21:25:26 GMT

> From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
> There has been some discussion (started by "Brainstorm", a movie
> which I must confess I haven't seen) about recording/transmission
> of human thoughts, and about stories concerning the same...

I recall one housed in the collection "The Hugo Winners, Volume 3,"
whose title escapes me but which was written by James Tiptree, Jr.
It involves the use of one person's body/mind to animate another
body.  The story takes place far enough in the future for
near-instantaneous communication to take place on a global scale.
However, advertising is outlawed.  Major conglomerates get around
this by finding people to use as animators -- ugly, down-and-out
people like the protagonist in the story.  They promise them a new
life by training them to animate 'celebrities' which are given
world-wide media exposure and advertise without actually
advertising.  In the case of our animator, though, she forgets who
she is and becomes her 'puppet.'  Interesting and a bit chilling.

(I'll go home tonight and look up the title.  Check the net Monday
for further details!)

B.K. Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Filmex: "Sex Mission"
Date: 27 Mar 85 20:38:53 GMT

On Peter Reiher's recommendation I went to see "Sex Mission", and
although I enjoyed the film, I have a few comments to throw in.

First, I thought the satire was incompletely done.  The world
portrayed in the film mirrored current day totalitarianism,
obviously, but failed to develop the concept.  It seems to me that a
film on a social problem needs 3 facets:

        1) A development of why the situation is a problem
        2) A suggested solution
        3) The results of the solution

"Sex Mission" develops the first idea, hints at the second, and
doesn't even consider the third.  Furthermore, I don't think that
the parallel they develop has any real bearing on modern day
totalitarianism.

Some people are satisfied with a satire that only addresses the
first issue above, and I don't mean to contradict your viewpoint.
I'm only pointing out what seemed to me an incompleteness in the
film.

Second, I found myself wondering throughout the film of the
ramifications of an all-female society.  This film only touches the
surface of this idea, an I found myself wanting a fuller exposition.
I realize that the intent of this film wasn't to explore this
concept, but I found this more interesting than the ideas (and
actions) they were portraying.

Finally, I wanted to note that the foreigness of the picture is
really brought home in the final shot - something you definitely
wouldn't see in an American film.

Always like to end with a tease...
                                                -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

From: qumix!stoner@topaz.arpa (David Stone)
Subject: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?")
Date: 21 Mar 85 03:02:56 GMT

I really have too many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am
rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running" (or
was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots
Huey,Duey,and Luey.If anyone remembers this was a film about
Spaceships that had been sent into space with a sampling of earths
plant life to preserve it from the destruction of a war then being
waged on earth. The the order came thru that the U.S could no longer
support the maintenance of the plants and they would have to be
destroyed and ...... (No Spoiler).....If you havn't seen the movie I
would recomend it.

Any comments?

And on worst movies if you thought Battle Beyond the Planets was bad
then a movie called Space Raiders would have to be considered worse
because a lot of this movie was made up of scenes from BBTP.

stoner@qumix
David A. Stone
Qume Corp.
San Jose,Calif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 85 14:23 EST
From: Mark F. Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: V (last episode??)

Did anyone else out there watch the last episode of V???  It looks
like the people at "V" might be planning to try V (similar story
different name).. They ended the show on a BIG cliff hanger..
Elizabeth is going somewhere with the leader(to his apartment??) and
Diana has planted a bomb on the leader's craft(how!!?? He was never
shown leaving the ship and looked like only one entry hatch!), and
Elizabeth's boyfriend has also apparently (somehow!!!???!!!)
stowed away on the Leader's ship... There is now the chance of
peace(possibly cooexistence??)...  Now here is the BIG question....
What will the title of the next V be??  "After the Final
Invasion"??? Do Donovon and Diana get married and have little
Starchildren that leave their toys "floating" around the house??
And what does the Leader look like??? Is he an etheral being or does
he just carry around a strong green flashlight???

See ya
Mark Rand

P.S. Why aren't there more Sci-Fi shows on T.V. like Dr. Who??!!!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Apr 85 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #113
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 3 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:

              Books - Asimov & Hodgsell & Shetterly &
                      Sladek (2 msgs) & Lesbian Gothic Romance &
                      Memory Recording Stories  & Best Novel (2 msgs),
              Films - Sex Mission & Trumbull &
                      Silent Running (2 msgs),
              Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 1985 00:48:04-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks dtn 223-9408)
Subject: Re: Number of the Beast

Gaylene asks about Assimov's heart attack. I know he suffered one in
the late 70's, but survived to speak about it at a lecture in
'79. You may be hearing about that one, (which was nearly fatal),
or a more recent event which I haven't heard about. In any event,
best wishes to Dr. Asimov, and may he forgive me for mispelling
his name six lines ago.
                                maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 09:23:43 pst
From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley
Subject: New P.C. Hodgsell book

> I desperately liked _God_Stalk_ and hope that a sequel will come
> out.
        You will be happy to know that a sequel has just been sold
to Atheneum, but don't expect it until the end of the year, or next
year (in hardcover, the paperback will take at least 6 more months).

                        Joe Kalash
                        unisoft!kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 11:35 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Recommendations, and Cats Have No Lord
To: hyper!brust@TOPAZ.ARPA

        I bought and read Cats Have No Lord this weekend.  It really
was enjoyable, and I agree with your blurb on the cover.  I didn't
really care much for either Moorcock's GLORIANA or Goldman's THE
PRINCESS BRIDE (I felt as if I were missing something because I
couldn't hear well in the latter, and couldn't see why the story was
worth listening to, in the former) and the elements in CHNL which
could be said to have come from those books seemed to have improved
a bit on the original.  I'm looking forward to a sequel, or other
works by Will Shetterly.
        I think the review blurbs on the PlainWrap Novels were
awfully similar to the tone of your suggested inside-cover quotes
from famous authors.  The one novel in that series? I read was sf,
and I believe one of the blurbs said "Adequate".  Yup, that's about
what it was, all right.
                                Marina Fournier

------------------------------

From: rochester!rick@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Memory recording stories (actually, John Sladek)
Date: 28 Mar 85 19:33:13 GMT

>From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
>Does anyone know if it's still around, or if Sladek wrote anything
>else besides this and /The Best of John Sladek/ ??]

John Sladek also wrote "The Reproductive System" (originally
"Mechasm").  An improbable and wildly bizarre novel about machine
intelligence (in the form of little self-reproducing boxes) gone
wild.  Very heavy on satire.  The sequence about the little boxes
gutting Las Vegas and the discussion of possible military
retaliation is particularly biting. I would recommend it highly if
it weren't out of print.

The author blurb in the '74 edition of "The Reproductive System"
states:

   "John T. Sladek was born in Iowa in 1937. He studied mechanical
   engineering, then English literature and composition at the
   University of Minnesota; he says he "writes passable technical
   manuals" and that his first published work was "The Baker
   Forklift Truck".

   "Sladek has contributed to Playboy, Ambit, Fantasy and Science
    Fiction, Amazing Stories, Galaxy and New Worlds, and he is the
    Editor of Ronald Reagan, The Magazine of Poetry. "The
    Reproductive System" is his first novel."

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "The Baker Forklift
Does Truck"?

        rick floyd
        rick@rochester.ARPA
        seismo!rochester!rick

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 1985 00:48:04-PST
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks dtn 223-9408)
Subject: Re: Number of the Beast

Someone asks about John T. Sladek's other stories - I can think of
one: "Mechasm", an outrageous farce about a California Doll company
that retools for a Defense contract, and builds a semi-intellegent
robot which reproduces itself, endlessly - destroying Civilization
As We Know It. A very funny and entertaining spoof on the American
Way.
                                maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Apr 85 07:58:22-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: "lesbian Gothic romance"

I liked Mr Seeley's reviews a lot, but Joanna Russ certainly didn't
invent, even fictionally, the "world's first lesbian Gothic
romance".

Credit for that achievement goes to J Sheridan le Fanu, for
"Carmilla", first published in 1871.  Plus c,a change...

Robert Firth

PS: made into a pretty bad movie by Hammer, as "The Vampire Lovers"

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker)
Subject: Re: Memory recording stories
Date: 29 Mar 85 02:51:22 GMT

> The novels "A World Out Of Time" and "Integral Trees" by Larry
> Niven also use the idea of putting a human's personality into a
> computer, as does his Berserker story, "A Teardrop Falls" (in
> /Limits/).

There is also an excellent collection, written in collaboration with
several authors, called _Berserker_Base_.  Highly recommended,
particurlaly if you liked "A Teardrop Falls," as it is essentially a
novel-like continuation of that story.

(I say novel-like because it dosen't seem to have the coherency that
a ``book'' has, but it has the length)

-  Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin
-  ...{seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 30 Mar 85 17:44:11 GMT

> Yet again, it ought to be clear that the fewer qualifiers used,
> the stronger the statement is.  Have read Strunk and White's THE
> ELEMENTS OF STYLE?  It is the best book on English usage...never
> mind.

Your appeal to Strunk and White as an authority is beside the point.
A statement can also be strong to the point of absurdity. Some
writers use this for comic effect (it's called hyperbole). The
unskillful or inappropriate use of hyperbole is defective style,
pure and simple.

> Another reason is that some of us like to "peg" ourselves.  As
> soon as I made that statement, some alert people learned a great
> deal about me.  More didn't, and still more couldn't care less,
> but

And what exactly is it that we're supposed to learn about you? I
suggest you reread the statements I responded to (I've conveniently
reproduced them a little later in this response). One of the
qualities that separates good writing from bad writing is CLARITY.
You don't have body language, voice intensity or pitch to convey
information so all the meaning in a sentence must be conveyed by its
content and structure. That's why we use smiley faces to indicate
irony or hyperbole in our postings to the net. Asking a reader to
read your mind or guess your meaning is just plain unfair.

> Another possible reason is as a "Turkey Detector."  That is,
> anyone who doesn't see the implied In My Opinion in those
> statements, and consequently Flames, is letting us know something
> about him.

Oh, come off it.  Where are the `implied In My Opinions' in the
following statements:

>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best
>SF Book of all time .

>>No.  The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger
>>Zelazny.  It is also the best English Language book written in the
>>twentieth century.

>>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very
>>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings".

The semantic content of these statements is clear and unambiguous.
There's no information about the authors' intentions, so I'm totally
incapable of commenting on whatever it was that you `really' meant.
If you can show me ANYTHING in these statements that qualifies the
superlative `best,' please point it out to me. I'm always ready and
willing to learn.
                                   -- Regards, Bill.

------------------------------

From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner
Date: 1 Apr 85 02:27:26 GMT

>>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very
>>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings".
>
> The semantic content of these statements is clear and unambiguous.
> There's no information about the authors' intentions, so I'm
> totally incapable of commenting on whatever it was that you
> `really' meant.  If you can show me ANYTHING in these statements
> that qualifies the superlative `best,' please point it out to me.
> I'm always ready and willing to learn.
>
>                                    -- Regards, Bill.

Sorry, Bill.  The statements all involved art works.  There are no
objective methods of judging one work of art (be it literature,
music, sculpture, etc.) to be superior to another.  One man's
masterwork is often another man's bird-cage liner.  Therefore, any
statement "The best English language book is ..." automatically
implies that the sentence should be interpreted as
"I/We/Somebody/Most think the best English language book is ..."

        Ray Chen
        princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Filmex: "Sex Mission"
Date: 28 Mar 85 06:51:51 GMT

srt@ucla-cs.UUCP (Scott Turner) writes:
>First, I thought the satire was incompletely done.  The world
>portrayed in the film mirrored current day totalitarianism,
>obviously, but failed to develop the concept.  It seems to me that
>a film on a social problem needs 3 facets:
>
>       1) A development of why the situation is a problem
>       2) A suggested solution
>       3) The results of the solution
>
>Furthermore, I don't think that the parallel they develop has any
>real bearing on modern day totalitarianism.

If you mean the statement of the problem has no bearing, well, I
think it does if one pursues certain parallels.  As far as the
solution goes, take it as a metaphor.  In fact, the film "Sex
Mission" is an example of the real world implementation of the sort
of solution that was used in the picture: those who see the problem
and dare to do something subverting the system from within by
attacking the hearts and minds of the more complacent citizens.  If
works of art like "Sex Mission" don't get slapped down, then sooner
or later their effect will be a population which won't put up with
totalitarianism.  "Sex Mission" thus must tread a rather fine line,
for if its subversiveness is too obvious, the director could end up
in jail or deported.

>Some people are satisfied with a satire that only addresses the
>first issue above, and I don't mean to contradict your viewpoint.
>I'm only pointing out what seemed to me an incompleteness in the
>film.

I should mention that most of the great classic satires are no more
than an exposition of problems.  For instance, "Gulliver's Travels",
"A Modest Proposal", and "The Threepenny Opera" all expose the
absurdity of problems, but offer no serious solutions to the
problems.  As I see it, the satirist's job is to grab his audience
by the shirtcollars and shake enough sense into them that they can
see what's wrong.  This is hard enough without demanding solutions.

>Finally, I wanted to note that the foreigness of the picture is
>really brought home in the final shot - something you definitely
>wouldn't see in an American film.

Definitely.  This may wind up being a real tease, as, what with the
current climate in America about certain subjects, an American
release print may well have the last shot cut.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 85 17:12 PST
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Trumbull

>From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine)
>
> This is a fine film about the development of a technology.  What's
> Trumbull doing today?

Trumbull has at least two projects going.  The first is a Showscan
process film for Expo 85 which is in Montreal, I believe.  The film
is part of an amusement park ride: you are part of a commercial
space shuttle flight in the near future.  As in all of these
projects there wasn't enough time or money and what gets shot by the
time the money runs out is what will be in the film.  I haven't seen
any footage but the storyboards looked like a credible "tour of
outer space".  This will be the first significant Showscan model
photography so far as I know.

The other project is called Environmental Video and is the
development of a widescreen video process based on five synchronized
video projectors.  There will be at least a little computer
generated imagery created by Video Image, the graphics contractor
for 2010.

I haven't heard about any Trumbull film projects.  I would guess
that he would have trouble getting a deal in Hollywood based on the
response to his previous films.

Michael Wahrman

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 85 23:21:33 EST
From: Jon Trudel <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Silent Running

>If anyone remembers this was a film about Spaceships that had been
>sent into space with a sampling of earths plant life to preserve it
>from the destruction of a war then being waged on earth.

The film was indeed Silent Running.  It was made at a time when
ecology was becoming a national/international issue.  The ships were
not preserving the plant life, but rather holding it until the Earth
decided what to do with it.  The Earth's population had grown to
such a size that all plant and animal life had to be removed to make
way for the people.  Humans were in complete control of the
environment and its 'resources'.  Bruce Dern was one of the
astronauts assigned to babysit pods which hold the plants and
animals.  He is the only one who still cares for the flora and
fauna, when the time comes for them to be eliminated...(no spoiler
here either)...

I too think this is one of the better SF-Films, albeit with the
ecological motif.  The scientific material was well handled by the
production staff, which I think was led by Douglass Trumbull.  If
you see it in the tv listings, watch it.  You won't regret it.

                                        Jonathan D. Trudel

ps- If you look closely, you can see footage of the Silent Running
ships in Battlestar Galaxitive.  They're the Agro vessels.

------------------------------

Date: 2-Apr-85 22:25 PST
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Silent Running
Cc: qumix!stoner@topaz.arpa

I was talking with Joan Baez about her singing once.  She did the
music in the film.  She told me that if she could get all the copies
of the film and destroy them.  She seemed to be embarrased by her
association with the film.  I told her I really enjoyed her
music...she just gave me a funny look.

I remember Jane Fonda once saying on a TV show that she would love
to have all copies of BARBARELLA destroyed.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 85 22:35:19 EST
From: Jon Trudel <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Peter Davison

As for other roles Peter Davison has played, so far no one has
pointed out one of his more memorable roles.  He was in Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy in the episode featuring Milliways.  Those of
you with tapes of the show can back me up on this, but I distinctly
remember seeing his name in the credits as the Dish of the Day.
Quite unlike his other roles, eh?  Also, I believe I read in an
issue of the Whovian Times that Davison was (and still is?)
married to the actress who played Trillian.

                                Jonathan D. Trudel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Apr 85 1623-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #114
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:

             Books - Dean & Heinlein (2 msgs) & King &
                     Leiber & Sladek & Spinrad & Miss Manners (2 msgs),
             Films - Brainstorm & Silent Running (2 msgs),
             Television - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: The Secret Country
Date: 1 Apr 85 20:30:44 GMT

Well, SZKB is right.  _The_Secret_Country_ is great.  Not the least
of Pamela Dean's gifts is demonstrated in the conversation of the
characters: it's natural.  The tension in the conflict of
is-this-a-game-or-is-this-reality, of this-is-beautiful-or-this-is-
potentially-dangerous, is compelling and impossible to avoid.  This
will speak to all of us who've ever stared at the ceiling in the
bedroom and piloted shuttles to the belt or tracked dragons or well,
you know what I mean.

I haven't read a book I felt such a strong desire to read again
immediately (all-the-way-through, yes, yes!) in such a long time.

And it's out in bookstores now (I got mine Saturday).

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UStale:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 08:08 IST
From: Tamir Weiner  <ZSTAMIR%WEIZMANN.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: submission to digest

            T H E   N U M B E R   O F  T H E   B E A S T
                                 by
                           Robert Heinlein

The original request for comments on this book came from
              Dave <sjuvax!iannucci@topaz.arpa>

and at the begining of last week a reply came in from
       maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks dtn 223-9408)

> ...If you were wondering about the quality of this story, I have
> disappointing news for you.  Namely, it Bites the proverbial Big
> One.

I had written to Dave personally to recommend that he read the book,
as I had enjoyed it very much.  I didn't want to do a formal review
of the thing, cause it had been awhile since I had read it.

So this is not a review so much as just a mini-flame to counter
Maxson's comments which were published in issue 105 of the digest...

> It's awful. Wretched, not worth the paper, and so on.  I am a
> great fan of Heinlein, and I guarantee no sane human could like
> this book.  Heinlein suffered a stroke and wrote this book as
> therapy during his recovery - and it stands as a tragic depiction
> of muddled thinking, ranting, obsession and mania.

Although I wasn't aware of Heinlein's stroke and therapy, which in
part explains some of the strangeness of this book (and certainly
it's non traditional bent, I enjoyed it, I too am a Heinlein fan,
and I'd bet other Heinlein fans have also enjoyed it.  It's a bit
strange in the second part of this book, but so then was Stranger in
a Strange Land.  That didn't stop its fame and fortune!

What gives with this book?  I'd say that at first the book moves
well like any other traditional Heinlein Novel.  The beginning takes
off like a rocket.  I enjoyed the first part of the book the most.
He gets into some interesting ideas on AI and computer programming
in this story. Later towards the end the book takes some unexpected
turns.

I think that he ended up philosophizing about the nature of fiction,
and what is real and what is imaginary in all his worlds, in books,
etc.  The end of the book is a bit strange sometimes comical,
definitely weird.  I don't really want to tell you too much but if
you're a Heinlein fan usually, I'd say it's definitely worth the
read time.  And if nothing else much fun.

> It was a great joy to us Heinlein fans when "Friday" appeared,
> signaling the recovery of RAH, the Dragon who Would Not Die.
> If you read it, don't let your impression of Heinlein become
> tarnished.  Number of the Beast is a fluke, and clearly an
> exception to the other excellent works Heinlein has given us.

Ok here I can agree with "maxon"'s comments.  Certainly FRIDAY was a
return to Heinlein's old style and a terrific read.  I'd say that
FRIDAY is certainly my next favorite work of his (next to his
Lazerous Long stuff).  Regarding THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST -- in a
nutshell I'd say: Read it, and don't take the end too seriously.

Marc  (ZSTAMIR@WEIZMANN.BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 1985  20:11 EST (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Number of the Beast

        I remember hearing somewhere that the Beast's name,
Melrooney, was an anagram for L. Ron O'Leemy (or is that used in the
book?  I haven't read it for some time, and wasn't too thrilled by
it anyway), one of Heinlein's pen names way back when.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  3 Apr 1985 06:38:49-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: STEPHEN KING, NEW BOOKS

     Mostly I agree with the review of 'Eyes of the Dragon' by
Stephen King that appeared in vol. 10, issue 112. The book does
suffer because it was written as a children's book. However, I did
enjoy the book, I feel that 'Eyes..' is a fun read and I recommend
it to anyone who likes FANTASY novels.

     Flagg is very much the same being as the Flagg in 'The Stand',
although, he is not as scary in this book. Since 'The Eyes of the
Dragon' is set in the Territories (as in 'The Talisman') this Flagg
could be another version of the one in 'The Stand'.

     'Eyes..' is not scheduled to be published as a trade edition
until 1987, so it might be a while before you get to read it.

     A oversized paperback edition of King's 'Cycle of the Werewolf'
will be published this month by Signet. This edition will include
the original art by Bernie Wrightson from the hardcover published by
The Land of Enchantment.  'Cycle of the Werewolf' is really a
novella, I think it is a great story & the artwork is very nice, it
is very short about 50 pages of text. This story is being made into
a movie titled 'The Silver Bullet'. I recommend this book very
highly, even if it's a bit expensive (@ $8.95).

     Also this month is Stephen King's second collection of short
stories, 'Skeleton Crew', (@ $18.95 from Putnam). And now that
King's admitted that he was writing as Richard Bachman there will be
a 4 in 1 omnibus edition of the first 4 Bachman books 'The Running
Man', 'Rage, 'The Long Walk' and 'Roadwork'. The fifth book
'Thinner' is still available. I have all 5 books by Richard Bachman,
if there is enough interest I will do reviews of them.

     I just started getting SF_LOVER, so, if I have gone over things
that have already been discussed, let me know.
                                          KEN COBB

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  2 Apr 1985 18:29:44-PST
From: moreau%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: Response to story request

> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
> A government employee, investigating packages and letters from
> individuals classified as potential subversives, finds a
> suspicious parcel.  This is the second such parcel he has observed
> in the last few months.  Opening the parcel reveals a photograph
> and letter.

I am uncertain this is the one you mean, but there was a short story
published in 1958 in Galaxy, by the name of "The Last Letter",
written by Fritz Leiber.  It was amusing, and dealt with the
horrifying (at least to the people in the story) concept that the
public mail system could be used to send a letter from one person to
another, rather than being used for their rightful purpose, of
sending advertising brochures from a company to everyone in the
world.
                                                Ken Moreau

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  4 Apr 1985 04:48:41-PST
From: lionel%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: John Sladek

In addition to "The Reproductive System", Sladek published (at
least) two more recent novels about a boy-robot named Roderick.  I
read the first and found it quite similar in style to The
Reproductive System, which means that I felt that I was missing 90%
of the content.  As I recall, Roderick was the result of a project
at a small school, and when the funding for the project was
eliminated, Roderick was taken away.  I also seem to remember
something about him being kidnapped by gypsies....

You might still be able to find these in larger bookstores.  TRS was
also reprinted recently (last few years) - I first read it as
Mechasm (or was it the other way around - never mind..)
                                Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 85 13:34 EST
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: Spinrad's "Riding the Torch"

> From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>                    RIDING THE TORCH by Norman Spinrad
>                          Bluejay, 1985, $6.95.
>                     A book review by Mark R. Leeper
>        Hoy Cow!  I just got my hands on a new Bluejay book.  The
>   book is Norman Spinrad's RIDING THE TORCH.  It goes for $6.95.
>   The story is 144 pages long, padded out with MUCHO blank pages
>   and internal illustrations.  There probably are no more than 100
>   pages of story....

This novella earlier appeared as part of a three-story anthology
("Threads of Time," published about ten years ago) and as half of a
Dell double (maybe five years ago, probably during Jim Frenkel's
tenure at Dell).  (Jayembee can no doubt supply details.)  I haven't
seen the Blujay edition, but Mark is right -- this shouldn't be
marketed as a novel.

>Now I may not be the world's best person to review the story itself

I won't disagree.

>Spinrad is heavily into writing style, and frankly, I prefer ideas

I like both, and I wasn't disappointed in this story.  In fact, it's
one of my all-time favorites.

>RIDING THE TORCH is probably NOT the best way a science fiction fan
>can spend $6.95.

As much as I've always loved RTT, I'd have to agree.  Find one of
the earlier versions.

------------------------------

From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot...
Date: 30 Mar 85 20:43:06 GMT

I agree with Brust about Miss Manners.  She is an excellent writer.
More, she understands that "manners" are not a matter of adhering to
some societal rule-book, but simply being nice to people.

I particularly liked her response to the correspondent who asked
what to say on being introduced to a homosexual couple.  "How do you
do.  How do you do."

Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking
ARPA:   Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K    uucp:   seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:     74176,1360      audio:  shout "Hey, Tim!"

------------------------------

From: osiris!jcp@topaz.arpa (Jody Patilla)
Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot...
Date: 1 Apr 85 16:28:36 GMT

> Mister Writer appreciates the time you are taking to respond to
> this rather delicate issue, but wonders if you have, in fact,
> taken the time to read carefully.  Mister Writer finds Miss
> Manners style a pure delight, and is saddened that there aren't
> more readers who appreciate complete mastery of the language
> blended with a gently ironic touch of nineteenth century
> Romanticism.
>
>                       -- SKZB

        Miss Manners tries very hard (and sometimes succeeds) to
sound like that paragon among writers, that angel of the language,
that model of perfection, Jane Austen.

        (Janeites unite !)

jcpatilla

------------------------------

Subject: Brainstorm
Date: 04 Apr 85 07:39:52 EST (Thu)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA

For those of you who have access to HBO, Brainstorm will be on this
month several times.  We can all see that last scene again and tie
up those loose ends on this discussion!  (Or, then again, it may
start itself up all over again).

        -Nancy

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?")
Date: 03 Apr 85 00:35:58 PST (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> I really have too many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am
> rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running"
> (or was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots
> Huey,Duey,and Luey.If anyone remembers this was a film about
> Spaceships that had been sent into space with a sampling of earths
> plant life to preserve it from the destruction of a war then being
> waged on earth. The the order came thru that the U.S could no
> longer support the maintenance of the plants and they would have
> to be destroyed and ...... (No Spoiler).....If you havn't seen the
> movie I would recomend it.

  I beg your pardon, I mentioned "Silent Running" (yes, that's the
name) a long time ago.  Personally, I list it not too far after
2001, which is that rare beast for me, an absolute all-time
favourite.  "Silent Running" is beautiful, with well-done,
convincing effects, the sympathetic little drones Huey, Duey, and
Looie (sorry, don't know how to spell them; I have better things to
do than tag about after Walt Disney), and most especially the finest
role I have ever seen Bruce Dern play .  Fortunately, unlike 2001,
Silent Running is shown now and again on television.  Gives you a
chance to enjoy it again just as you were starting to forget it.
(2001 on TV is NOT a good idea.  It really needs a large screen, and
a fine sound system).

  As I recall, the ships were taking not merely a sampling, but all
the plants left on Earth (the remainder had been wiped out).
Furthermore, it wasn't just plants: small animals, and birds, were
among the cargo, so that the ships were really carrying a lot of
parks and forests..  They weren't just flying greenhouses.  A
corporate or governmental decision was to be taken whether the
forestry was to be saved (aboard the ships, of course), or
discarded, and the ships returned to Earth for more "useful" work.
As the film opens, the crews are awaiting that decision.

  My vote for best effect in Silent Running: the explosions in
space.  You so seldom see those done correctly, but they're done
correctly here.  Of course, you might argue in favour of the rings
of Saturn, and I don't really see how I could criticise if you did
...
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 08:50 PST
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: "Silent Running"

The name of the movie is indeed "Silent Running". If my memory is
correct (and I can correct or verify any of the following info
later), The movie was ment as a kind of social statement, eccology
and all that. I think, (mind you I'm not sure), that "Silent Runing"
was started out as a project for a college film class. I'm fairly
sure it was done on a tight bugget, but you couldn't tell from the
quality, or I couldn't. If your'e wondering why, here's part of it.
All of the interior sets,(except the domes), were done on an old
aircraft carrier.

Hear's a small bit of worthless information, :-> the sound track was
rereleased a couple of years ago (pressed on transparent green vinyl
no less). I think its still available, though hard to find.

 Personally I liked the film. I would also add my recommendation to
see it.

Here's a couple of trivia questions for those of you who've seen
"Silent Running"

1) Who is the artist who did the title track?

2) How do the drones work?

Wendel

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@topaz.arpa (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: The official BBC position on Doctor Who
Date: 3 Apr 85 21:14:00 GMT

Your letter was far from personal: on net.tv.drwho, James Armstrong
says that he received the identical letter.
                                         A. G. Percus
                                  (ARPA) percus@acf4
                                   (NYU) percus.acf4
                                  (UUCP) ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Apr 85 1640-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #115
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 5 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Dick & Hartwell,
             Films - Silent Running (2 msgs),
             Telvision - Dr. Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: publishers of _To_Reign_in_Hell_
Date: 3 Apr 85 13:58:54 GMT

> I haven't seen _To_Reign_In_Hell_ anywhere.  Who's the publisher?
> How much is it?

SteelDragon Press came out with it first in a nice hardcover
edition.  (Their business card says Box 7253 Powderhorn station,
Minneapolis MN 55407 (617) 721-6076.)  Paperback is from Ace
Fantasy, just like _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_; I first saw it in the
bookstores here the last weekend in March.

Didn't everyone see the ad on the first page of F&SF this month from
Ace for Brust's and Wrede's latest books?!

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust)
Date: 2 Apr 85 20:01:37 GMT

  Just finished reading this book, which I don't think I would have
normally picked up, but since the author is a net type person...

  The book concerns a struggle in Heaven, between the various of the
Heavenly Host.  The premise is to show how events like the fall of
Satan, etc., might have actually happened quite differently, but
still have given rise to the standard interpretation.

  The problem with writing this sort of a book is that the author
has started off by placing severe limitations upon himself.  First
of all, he has to write a story that supports the standard
interpretation of the struggle in heaven.  Secondly, he has to craft
the story so that the reader is left with an entirely different
viewpoint about what happened.  Third, within this framework he has
to write a story.

  Brust handles the first two points nicely.  I'm not well read on
the various myths about the fall of Satan, etc., but the story fit
in well with what I do know.  The story also left me with a new view
on the fall of Satan, so it succeeded on the second point as well.

  However, the story fails (somewhat) on the third point.

  I'm of the opinion that a story must be personal in order to
succeed.  That is, even if you intend to tell the story of some
sweeping historical change, you must show how that change has some
personal effect on someone.  LOTR does this admirably.  Although the
story is, on one level, a struggle between good and evil, it
succeeds because it shows how this struggle is reflected in the life
of Frodo.

  To Reign In Hell doesn't do this.  If you've read the book, ask
yourself who the main character is.  Satan?  Well, much of the
action does revolve around Satan, but he isn't (strangely) central
to the story.  In fact, the story doesn't have a main character, and
that, I think, is its major failing.

  By not having a personal side, and by not showing a great deal of
character development, etc., TRIH fails to be a complete story.

  On to some unrelated comments.

  I found two ideas in TRIH to be fairly fascinating.  First, there
is the idea that the angels were at some time ignorant of morality.
This idea is only hinted at and then abandoned.  The hint is when
they question whether or not they have the right to force other
angels to do something.  At first they seem surprised by the
question (and, indeed, Michael never does see the point), but the
issue is never fully developed, and there are plenty of actions by
angels that contradict this premise (i.e, Abdiel worries about what
he is doing, Jaweh feels love, etc.).

  Still, this is a fascinating idea.  Suppose you had a world full
of creatures who had no morality at all.  What would they (and their
society) be like?

  The second idea is the implication that Jesus Christ was the
SECOND coming, and not the first.  I'm not sure if Brust intended
this or not, but it occurred to me while reading the book, and I
found it to be an interesting idea.  I'm not sure how this can be
used in a story, but it makes a fascinating premise.

                                        -- Scott Turner

------------------------------

From: anwar!chuck@topaz.arpa (chuck jann)
Subject: any philip K. Dick fans out there?
Date: 3 Apr 85 21:33:10 GMT

Greatings ;

   In the latest cataogue from "THE SCIENCE FICTION SHOP" there is a
listing for a new hardcover called "Milton Lumkey Territory" by
Philip K. Dick. Now we all know he didn't just write this last
month, but I have never heard of this book before. Does anyone know
anything at all about this?  At $29.95 I'm not going to run right
out and buy a copy. Any info at all would be nice.

                                          thanks in advance,
                                          chuck
UUCP address:   {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!chuck

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  4 Apr 1985 04:53:00-PST
From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: "Age of Wonders" by Hartwell

I picked up an interesting hardback a few weeks ago: "Age of
Wonders" by David G. Hartwell.  It's a general discussion of SF by
the former editor of the Timescape series.  Timescape had a
consistently high standard of novels and a consistently high level
of bickering with the publisher, and so is no longer with us.
Nevertheless, Hartwell has a lot of interesting things to say.
Chapter 5 is called "When It Comes True, It's No Fun Anymore" and is
about the collapse of the field in the late Fifties, just when
everyone thought that SF would finally become respectable:

"... Until 1957, a whole lot of the creative energy of SF had gone
into visions of space and space travel, producing a large majority
of the popular enduring works up to that time.  A wave of excitement
and euphoria broke over SF in late 1957: Finally, it's real!  Now
everyone will know that we were right all along, all during those
decades when we were called space nuts (or simply nuts) - we were
the ones who had faith, who knew, and now the world is at our feet!
   "Within a few weeks the horrible truths began to pile up.  The
world didn't care that the SF field had been right all along - aside
from a few early headlines and Sunday-supplement pieces about
science fiction becoming science fact, no one paid any more
attention to SF than they ever had.  And as 1958 wore on, it got
worse: Fewer and fewer people were buying and reading SF books and
magazines.  During the years after Sputnik, the field declined
radically.
    "... The truth is that in a single instant the fact of space
travel turned most of the classic space travel stories of science
fiction into fantasies.  Every week of the new space age made more
science fiction untrue.  This was such a big thing for SF that no
one could quite think it through at the time.  Everyone knew that
something was really wrong, however, and the sudden decline in SF
was a numbing disappointment to everyone, coming at the end of the
great boom in SF that characterized the early Fifties.
    "In such classics as Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon," SF
readers had been told in no uncertain terms that space travel would
be a private enterprise, usually the inspiration of an Edisonlike
inventor or visionary businessman. That the Russian government had
gotten there first, that the U.S. military would follow in a
bungling fashion (at least initially) boggled SF readers.  Doc
Smith's "The Skylark of Space", Heinlein's Future History stories,
all the classics and standard works were now no longer improbable
but possible: They were dead wrong.  Space travel, one of the
greatest visions of generations of SF writes and fans, was real and
the euphoria of SF fans at the fact was real, but a major and
confusing readjustment was suddenly necessary."

   He then goes on to discuss the idea that SF is supposed to be a
predictor of technology, largely because John W. Campbell thought
that way.  Sometimes someone gets lucky in the prediction game, but
more often it turns out different, and worse, than anyone expected.
As Jerry Pournelle once said about the first Moon landing, "Only
NASA could take the greatest event in human history and make it
boring!"
   Hartwell says SF is about prophecy, not prediction.  Its purpose
is to provide visionary images, not blueprints.  That SF is possible
at all is what distinguishes it from fantasy, but we shouldn't
expect too much from it.  When you start to think it's real is when
you go off into the depths of flying saucerdom or Scientology.
   Now, I'm not quite sure I go along with all that.  Visionary
images are fine, but only if there isn't something obviously wrong
with them.  Remember the flap in these (disk) pages a few months ago
over "Dune"?  I, and a number of other people, rejected "Dune"
because of the holes in its science and plot.  Sure, you get a
thrill when the huge sandworm comes bursting up out of the desert,
but if a small voice says "Wait a minute, that can't work", then the
thrill is gone.  The Dune movie was even worse in this respect.  It
had lots of great effects, but they were spoiled by the dumb
dialogue and plot.  I'll go along with the idea that it doesn't have
to be true down to the last rivet, but I don't want to turn my brain
off completely when I read.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?")
Date: 4 Apr 85 00:42:32 GMT

>I really have to many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am
>rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running"
>(or was it "Running Silent"?)  with Bruce Dern and his three robots
>Huey,Duey,and Luey.

I have a really good reason for not mentioning SILENT RUNNING among
the best of science fiction films.  I dislike it.  At times very
much.  There was a film that came out in 1971 called BILLY JACK.  At
the time it struck a responsive chord and lot's of people liked it
very much.  Those same people look at the film today totally aghast!
Both BILLY JACK and SILENT RUNNING are films that preach to horribly
-- and only to the converted.  They both pander to a particular
political viewpoint that people could groove on when they came out
without thinking too much about the content.  In SILENT RUNNING we
learn that the meanies on earth years ago sent all of the forests
into orbit.  For a piece of ecological science fiction it stops to
think very little about what the ecological effect on Earth would be
without the plant life and instead make a sentimental appeal that
the forests and all the dewy-eyed animals are gone.  There is no
explanation as to what people are breathing these days on old Mother
Earth with all the trees in space.  In any case, just in case
somebody in the future gets nostalgic for the days when Earth had
oxygen, they keep the forests alive by shooting them into space and
having a bunch of not-very-dedicated space cadets tend the forests.

Then those nasty earth people decide to use of the last of their
oxygen burning their bridges behind them.  The ships cost too much
to maintain, they have to be nuked.  It is a heck of a lot cheaper
to jettison the forests in the direction of the sun, or away, where
they will not be a hazard to navigation, but nasties and nuking go
together so all the forests and the sweet dewy-eyed animals have to
be nuked.  How much would it cost to let the forests run themselves,
as one person figures out at a different point of the film, not one
red penny.  Automatic systems could maintain the forests on solar
power, apparently, but there is not one scientist on Earth who
thinks of that before the last of the forests is nuked.  They
apparently are all hot to see the fireworks display.

Ah, but one ecologist rebels.  Freeman Lowell -- even the name is
corny -- decides to rebel and take his forest away from the sun and
out to the orbit of Saturn.  There the forest seems to mysteriously
get sick.  Can you guess why a forest that was healthy in Earth's
orbit might get sick out in Saturn's orbit?  Ecologist Freeman
Lowell can't.  Not for a long time, anyway.

I guess this is a film with its heart in the right place, but it was
just stupid.  I like trees and I am an animal rights advocate.  But
dammit, this film makes a studid argument by saying wouldn't it be
sad if these things were gone.  Friend, it wouldn't be sad 'cause
you need oxygen to be sad.  You ain't got oxygen, you ain't gonna be
around to miss the chipmunks.  A filmmaker who tells you that the
reason to protect the environment is just to save the pretty trees
and animals is being criminally irresponsible.  (I really expect
someone to pop up at this point and say that maybe the Earthlings
are getting their oxygen from moss or something.  I think that
currently a fair proportion of our oxygen comes from things SILENT
RUNNING is claiming are going away.  Even in the dubious possibility
that a stable eco-system is possible based on other sources of
oxygen, you can't get there from here without a whole lot of
disruption that would probably kill off old Homo Saps anyway.)

Joan Baez sang the song under the credits which seems somehow
fitting.  That is not an attack on her (though I really dislike her
for other reasons).  It is just that she, like this film, tends to
appeal to people's emotions rather than their reasoning.  The music
was pretty good, written by Peter Schickle who is better known for
P. D. Q. Bach tours.  The robots were played by bi-lateral amputees,
incidently, and it is good that they could find work.  Still none of
these positive points outweighs the major faults of the story.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: amdahl!canopus@topaz.arpa (Frank Dibbell)
Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?")
Date: 3 Apr 85 18:42:00 GMT

> (David A. Stone:)
> I really have to many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am
> rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running"
> (or was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots
> Huey,Duey,and Luey. (...)one

  It was "Silent Running".  I saw it too, and was impressed with it.
My guess is that it was a bit too "cerebral", and a bit "slow" -
reasons why it wasn't more popular.  Excellent special effects.  It
was also interesting to see Bruce Dern play something other than a
scruffy cowboy!

Frank Dibbell     (408-746-6493)         {whatever}!amdahl!canopus
[R.A. 6h 22m 30s  Dec. -52d 36m]         [Generic disclaimer.....]

------------------------------

Subject: Let us put our minds at ease...
From: S. C. Colbath  <CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1985 14:55 EST

Just to throw my two cents in with Larry Seiler..  I have "contacts"
in the promotional department at our local Public Broadcasting
station, and managed to get ahold of a copy of a letter from the
*President* of Lionheart television to the director of the station.
Apparently the rumor has been kicking around PBS about the "hiatus"
and the cancellation, and although the "hiatus" will happen, the
cancellation will not.  An excerpt from the letter:

   You may have recently heard that the BBC is placing Doctor Who on
   hiatus until fall of 1986.  We at Lionheart Television want to
   assure you as a valued customer that you will see _no_
   interruption in your Doctor Who program flow.  I have had
   conversations with executives at the highest levels of the BBC
   who personally assure me that The Doctor will return bigger and
   better than ever.  In the meantime, we will continue to supply
   you with new, never before seen programs.

Although this may have been the stock form letter in response to a
vast number of queries, it is comforting to know.  And it WAS on Dr.
Who/Lionheart stationary.
                                   Sean Colbath
                                   cpe07401%maine.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Apr 85 1044-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #116
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:

        Books - Brust & Dean & Ellison & Heinlein (4 msgs) &
                Pohl,
        Films - Silent Running (5 msgs) & Explosions in SF Films &
                Buckaroo Banzai 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 15:22 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Melrooney, and Statements from Brust

While I read JHEREG and YENDI dutifully when on loan from a friend, I
thought, "Nice books, but I'll buy them used, no hurry."  I was also
unemployed at the time, mind you.  BUUTT(aspirated), since I've been
on this dl and have been reading SKZB's comments, I am much more
inclined to run out and purchase immediately publication notice 
reaches me, because I have a much better idea of how his mind and 
humor works, and now I want to see just what he'll do next with this 
set of characters, or what other characters he'll discover.

                        A. Marina Fournier

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 85 09:55 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Pamela Dean/Secret Country

You folks are a hard act to follow.  The Secret Country came out
here last Saturday, I had it read before I went to sleep, and
intended to do a review.  I let three days pass and someone else
beats me to the punch.  By the way, Pamela Dean is married to David
Dyer-Bennet who occasionally reads this digest.

  T h e   S e c r e t   C o u n t r y ! !

READ THIS BOOK!  This is the first book by a new author and is very
good.  Its the first book in years about "children going to a
magical land" which is really fresh and new.  I had the same feeling
of "good heavens, I have found a magical ring!" as I did 10 years
ago when I first started playing Fantasy Role Playing games!

Now that I have said how good it is, let me tell you a few minor
picks.  The children kept keeping secret about where they are from,
and why they are doing some strange things.  After 3/4 of the book I
began to wish they would either tell someone, or try to find out
what brought them to the land in the first place.  I get very tired
of stories where the hero(ine) walks around in ignorance the whole
book.  At least these children made some attempt to gain knowledge
of their position.

I didn't realize until the end that this was a multi-volume book.
Now I have to wait to read more of Pamela Dean's work.  ARGHHH!

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Ellison-- Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed
Date: 6 Apr 85 07:02:17 GMT

It is with some trepidation that I murmur the words 'Harlan Ellison'
to this group. It is a subject for which there is no gray, no middle
ground, no truce. You love him, you hate him.

Regardless of which camp you pup your tent in, the fact remains that
Harlan is a powerful writer. He may on occasion write badly, but his
command of the English language permits us to say he never writes
poorly. His is not the airy vista of the heroic fantasy, the endless
wastes of space; his turf is here, and now, and much closer to home,
the darkest closets of humanity that serve to hide the deepest
secrets that make us human.

As Harlan writes, so is he judged. With 'Croatoan', with 'Basilisk',
with 'Deathbird', with every story that successfully fires the fury
of those found guilty by his words, Harlan is judged by the
self-righteous, the petty, the fearful. By the guilty. And by the
rest of us.

Harlan the miscreant. Harlan the egotist. Harlan the lecher, the
anti-man anti-women anti-american anti-conservative anti-liberal
gun-hating commie pinko fag.

What most people forget, though, is that those stories are not
Harlan.  Those stories are Social Conscience. 'Sleepless Nights in
the Procrustean Bed' (Borgo Press, $7.95), a collection of his
non-fiction essays from 60's to the 80's, show that the stories
Harlan writes are simply mirrors held forward to show the failures
and foibles of people. Those who throw stones at such a mirror
should beware-- the figure they stone is not Harlan, but a distorted
mirror image of their worst fears.

Sleepless Nights, however, goes a long way towards showing Harlan as
Harlan. As strong and powerful as his fiction writing is, he seems
most at home with the non-fiction, and seeing it in general print
allows us to remove a lot of the bias that has been leveled at him.
The ego is still there, the stubborn and the opinion-- these are all
here, but in perspective. Harlan takes his stand, but he takes his
falls as well, he stands up on his soapbox, and he sticks his tongue
firmly in his cheek.  Unlike many, he isn't afraid to take a stand,
but he takes stands because he believes in them, not because they
generate publicity.

If there is one thing this book does, it brings forward the
realization that Harlan is human. It is one thing for the weak to
hack *Egotist* *Harlan* *Ellison* to their own level, it is quite
another to see him as Harlan Ellison, who cries when his mother
dies, who laughs, who hurts, who grieves, and realize that all of
the righteous umbrage tossed at him are tossed at a straw man, a
non-existant shadow of ourselves.

As you might have guessed, I'm a long-time fan of Harlan. I've read
his worked, heard his talk, studied, guessed, fantasized, and
analyzied him through the works of him and many others. He has
entertained, disturbed, frightened, hurt, cajoled, and ripped me
open to my naked soul. I've loved him and hated him, usually
simultaneously. There are parts of his work that will follow me to
my grave, enlivening my dreams and haunting my nightmares. I've read
as much of his work as I could, cursing him to his grave, praying
for his soul. I haven't always liked what I read, but I read it
anyway.

After all of that, reading Sleepless Nights finally allows me a
perspective on him, instead of a perspective of the shadow of him
flitting through his works. I realize now that when I throw a stone
berating him for some raw nerve he hit, the recipient isn't him.

For Harlan readers, this book is a must. It tells you more about
Harlan than anything I've read, not because it is about him, but
because the writing is him-- the poses of his fiction are gone, the
outrage is tempered by wit and wisdom, the writing much less manic.
It teaches you as much about Harlan the man as it does the subjects
on which he talks, and for that it is an important work. For Harlan
haters, I suggest you read it, too. You just might find that you've
been throwing sticks at a straw man.  It might give you an angle
with which to better reach for and understand his other works. It
might do nothing, but you'll be no worse off.

Harlan is, simply, one of the most important writers of the century.
Long after most of the 'names' are gone and buried in the remainder
rack, his work will stand out and be read and remembered. Anything
that helps us and those beyond us to understand this man better
helps make his work more accessible, and this book does that. Find
it. Buy it (borrow it, steal it, I don't care). Read it. Love it,
hate it, but try it.

:From the closet of anxieties of: Chuq Von Rospach,
National Semiconductor
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 15:22 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Melrooney, and Statements from Brust

According to one of my friends, all the names of the Beast in NotB are
indeed anagrams, but of R. A. Heinlein OR HIS PSEUDONYMS.  This seems
to work.
                        A. Marina Fournier

------------------------------

From: mako!marko@topaz.arpa (Mark O'Shea)
Subject: Re: Digest V10 #105:  Heinlein's stroke
Date: 3 Apr 85 16:40:16 GMT

I am a big fan of RAH and "Friday" was very much in the style I have
grown to know and love.  I have a question.  Has Anyone read "The
Number of the Beast"?  I read it and am puzzled.  Did RAH put one
over on me?  Did I just miss the point(s).  Was it just a different
tack and I wasn't ready for it?  Can anyone enlighten me?  Thanks.

No need to post a reply unless you want to.  A reply by mail would
satisfy me.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Apr 85 11:17:38-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein

How can you forget "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"? That has to be
Heinlein's best novel. I liked Job, Friday to a lesser extent, and
666 even less, and I am afraid I have found the Lazarus Long
material only passable (those characters just get on my nerves after
a while, say 2000 years, you know?).

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Heinlein (a funny name in...)
Date: 5 Apr 85 14:02:18 GMT

Heinlein mentions "The Glaroon" in Job and another story (trivia
question: what story?)  Does anyone have any idea what the devil a
glaroon is?
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Subject: Heechee rndezvous-slight spoiler
Date: 4 Apr 85 12:16:43 GMT

                ******SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!!!!******

   I just finished Heechee Rendezvous and found a couple of
inconsistancies that are bothering me.  Maybe you net folk caught
something I missed.
   For example when Robin and Essie first let in the True Love she
said that she didn't have room on the data fans for Sigfried Von
Shrink, something to the effect that she should have left off the
Gourmet cooking software and included the Shrink. Then when Albert
goes off his rocker Robin calls up the Sigfreid program to help
Albert get himself together. I don't get it. Also when Albert was
explaining how he found the sailship and the Heechee ship he said
that he calculated the number of seconds since the original sighting
and then figured out how far the ship could have traveled in that
time. How did he know which direction to go in? There was something
else but I forget it now.
   Well net-folk your mission if you decide to accept is to help me
understand how this all came about. Any comments?

                                        *db*
dec-katadn!bottom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 85 16:19:22 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Silent Running (Spoilers)

The recent mention of Silent Running prompts me to post some
comments about the film -- I get annoyed about these elements in the
plot every time I see it.  First off, Dern (I don't recall the
character's name, so I'll use the actor's) is very concerned with
the fate of the plants and animals in the eco-domes.  He goes
berserk when Earth orders them destroyed. So what does he do?  He
DESTROYS most of them, just in order to kill off the other crewmen!
This is ridiculous!

Secondly, then what does he do? He heads out, away from the sun, so
that the plants die off and the stuff in the remaining dome(s?)
freezes. He could have selected an orbit that put him on the
opposite side of the sun from earth, still shielded from them but
allowing the sunlight to keep the dome contents alive. He doesn't.

Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed.
They could have called back the crew, and Dern could have chosen to
stay as a hermit or whatever, and the ships could have orbited
endlessly at no cost to Earth.

This sort of basic plot failure spoils what could otherwise be a
really enjoyable movie.

Will

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?")
Date: 4 Apr 85 18:13:08 GMT

For a while, "Silent Running" was what I considered the best movie I
had ever seen.  It was the only movie to make me cry, back when I
saw it in 1972.  (I was 11.)  Superb.

------------------------------

From: cvl!hsu@topaz.arpa (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: "Silent Running"
Date: 4 Apr 85 14:38:24 GMT

> 2) How do the drones work?
>
> Wendel

By this, what do you mean? The legless child actors inside?

-dave

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz.arpa (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Silent Running (music)
Date: 4 Apr 85 17:08:08 GMT

One interesting point about "Silent Running" is the music... written
by a chap named Peter Schickele (sp?).  For those music purists out
there, (:-) ) he is the "Discoverer" of the music of P.D.Q. Bach.
From what I've read, he now writes serious music under a different
name to avoid... contamination??? :-)

                                    Ron Wanttaja
                                    (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Apr 85 10:48:30-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #114

>From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
>the sympathetic little drones Huey, Duey, and Looie (sorry, don't
>know how to spell them; I have better things to do than tag about
>after Walt Disney)

It's Huey (like the helicopter), Dewey (like the decimal), and Louie
(like nothing clever that I can think of).
                                                Rich Alderson@SCORE

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  5 Apr 85 12:41:27 CST
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: SF movie explosions

Alastair Milne points out that the explosions in SILENT RUNNING are
instances of that rare thing, a convincing \in vacuo/ explosion in
an SF movie.  Unfortunately, I can't think of even ONE other
example.  Can anyone else?

The one thing I've never forgiven George Lucas for is the incredibly
stupid explosion he used in STAR WARS, which has since been
duplicated by every other space shoot 'em up.

        - Mike

ps.  The explosion of Jupiter in 2010 doesn't count, though it was
well done.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 85 11:18:41 PST (Friday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Beefaroo Bonzoy!
To: chris@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,comay@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,Conde.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA
To: ,
To:     edward@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,Lady Lleyn
To: <horatio%UCBMIRO@UCB-VAX.ARPA>,
To:    
To: leres@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,Mackey.pa@Xerox.ARPA,marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,
To:     Poskanzer.SV@Xerox.ARPA,(sarge%UCBCORY@Berkeley.ARPA,
To:     Yamamoto.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA,Yang.pa@Xerox.ARPA,
To:     doctor%UCBMIRO@UCB-VAX.ARPA

RECEIVED: 4 APR 85
1.      1 Each, Official Buckaroo Banzai Fan Paraphanelia

2.      1 Each, Application for enrollment in the Blue Blaze [sic]
        Irregulars

Contents of Item 1:

A.      1 Ea., glossy 4 page color Production Information folio

B.  1 Ea., Newsletter, Banzai Institute (On official "Banzai
                Institute For Biomedical Engineering and Strategic
                Information" stationary).
C.      1 Ea., "Moving Through Matter", article by Dr. Cary I Sneider

D.  1 Ea., "Some Hard Facts and Persistant Rumors Concerning
                Buckaroo Banzai" by W.D. Richter (Director/Producer
                of the movie)
E.      1 Ea., Biographical information on Team Banzai residents
F.      2 Ea., Team Banzai pin
G.      2 Ea., Team Banzai sticker

Contents of Item 2:

A.  1 Ea., personal note from Denise Tathwell, quote: "We are
                contacting those showing interest to ask what you'd
                [sic] like to see in a BANZAI fan club."  (Any
                suggestions?)

Banzai Words:

"If all wishes were gratified, many dreams would be destroyed."

Commodore Perry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 85 1038-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #117
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:

              Books - Dick & Heinlein & King (3 msgs),
              Films - Star Trek IV & Star Wars &
                      Silent Running (2 msgs) & Trumbull &
                      Explosions in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday,  8 Apr 1985 12:58:36-PST
From: lary%mariah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: "new" Philip K. Dick novels

The book "In Milton Lumky (Lumkey?) Territory" is the third of
Philip K. Dick's "mainstream" novels to be released; the other two
are "Confessions of a Crap Artist" and "The Man Whose Teeth Were All
Exactly Alike". Dick wrote several mainstream novels in the late
50's and early 60's, but none of them were accepted for publication,
so he concentrated on science fiction thereafter. Several
unpublished manuscripts exist in the Philip K. Dick archives at Cal
State Fullerton, and some of them will follow "In Milton Lumky
Territory" into print in the future.

The writing style of the previously published mainstream novels is
very similiar to that of Dick's science fiction (i.e. uneven, but
excellent when it works - editorial comment) and elements of the
fantastic do enter, but they are purely subjective (delusions,
hoaxes, etc); these are not science fiction novels, but they are
worth reading. I have not received my copy of IMLT yet.

                                                Richard Lary

------------------------------

From: nmtvax!student@topaz.arpa
Subject: FRIDAY
Date: 7 Apr 85 23:01:27 GMT

A while back there was a message posted about Heinlein's FRIDAY in
which the artificial persons had a code to identify themselves. The
code was not supposed to be "My mother was a test tube, my father a
knife." Since I had not read the book the first time this came
through I ignored it but I am now curious. Could anyone with
knowledge about this MAIL me information?

Sincerely;
Greg Hennessy
..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student

------------------------------

From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban)
Subject: Stephen King
Date: 4 Apr 85 13:34:57 GMT

        Well, every so often I feel compelled to keep the net up to
date on the latest Stephen King news, so here goes:

Books:

        1) "Skeleton Crew" has a publicaion date of June 21st,
according to the publicity department at Putnam (though with the
unexpected success of "Thinner", there is a possibility that this
date will be set back).

        2) This fall, the original, unexpurgated version of "The
Stand" will be released (I assume from Doubleday). The length will
be about 1300 pages.

        3) His first new novel (under his own name) since "The
Talisman" will be "It", and is tentatively slated for a 1986
release.

        4) "Eyes of the Dragon" is due in late 1987, and a new
science fiction-fantasy novel called "The Tommyknockers" will be
released sometime in 1988. Does anyone know when "The Drawing of the
Four", the second installment in "The Dark Tower" series, is due?

Movies:
        1) "Cat's Eye" will be released on April 12th.

        2) "Silver Bullet" is scheduled for release on October 11th.

        3) Rob("This Is Spinal Tap", "The Real Thing")Reiner is
scheduled to start shooting "The Body" from the "Different Seasons"
collection for Embassy Pictures in mid-June.

        4) "The Talisman" - who knows? After all the hoopla
surrounding Speilberg's purchase of the film rights, the project
seems to be in limbo (no shooting date, director, cast have been
announced).

        5) "The Stand" is supposed to be filmed in Texas, and "Pet
Sematary" in Maine, but it doesn't look as if either project will
come to fruition soon.


Television:

        1) King is supposed to contribute scripts to the new
"Twilight Zone" series to be on the fall 1985 schedule.

And yes, I for one would be interested in hearing some reviews of
his Richard Bachman books (I have "Roadwork", "The Running Man" and
"Thinner", but have not had a chance to read any of them yet).

Whew! I hope some of you found that interesting!

                                        Rick Urban
                                        AT&T Network Systems
                                        Columbus, Ohio
                                        ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE STAND
Date: 5 Apr 85 19:06:54 GMT

                     THE STAND by Stephen King
                       New American Library.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     I have often claimed that Stephen King overwrites his books.
Most of his stories are good stories but are padded out by giving
long histories to introduce his characters.  An idea that Richard
Matheson or Charles Beaumont or even Robert Bloch would write as a
20-page story, King will write and sell as a novel.  A recent
example is PET SEMETARY, which is little more than a novel-length
version of Jacobs's "The Monkey's Well, I finally have read a
Stephen King horror story with enough idea for a 180-page novel.
And his mean, nasty publisher made him trim it down to about 820
pages.  But fear not, the complete untrimmed version is on its way.

     For those who don't already know what THE STAND is about--and I
seem to be one of the few people who have not read it till now--a
highly virulent version of the flu is accidentally released from a
government biological research facility.  The resulting plague kills
off all but a very small part of the U.S. population.  The survivors
start having dreams of one or both of two people who are starting
communities.  The good people are drawn to Mother Abigail, a black
woman over 100 years old.  The baddies, including us technologists,
are drawn to some guy known variously as "the walking dude," "the
dark man," and Flagg.  In Las Vegas, Nevada, sin capital of the
world, Flagg builds his society of psychopaths and engineers.  Of
course, the good and bad people plan to war on each other, and
thereby hangs the tale.

     THE STAND for too much of the book does just that.  It stands.
It doesn't fall on its face, but it doesn't move ahead either.
There are about 350 pages in which not much happens really.  The
good people just set up their government and occasionally disagree
with each other.  Horror fans who enjoy this sort of story-telling
will also enjoy reading THE FEDERALIST PAPERS.  In the last 200
pages the story returns to the book and it is good to have it back.

     My recommendation: read THE STAND if you have some spare time
coming up.  Better yet, if READERS' DIGEST ever condenses it, go for
it.  That will probably be the best version of the story.

                                Mark R. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  8 Apr 1985 10:41:43-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: BACHMAN/(KING) 'THE RUNNING MAN'

     I am going to review the early books by RICHARD BACHMAN
(Stephen King) in installments over the next week or two, first 'The
Running Man'.

    'The Running Man': This novel is set in the U.S. of the future,
actually I hope that the future turns out a little better than this.
There is no social security or food stamps in this future, the only
way that people in need can get help is to go on one of the
government run television game shows. The TV or (FREE VEE) is
provided as a service by the government, TV sets are given to
everyone by the government. Most of the game shows are simply ways
to make the contestants look like fools, maybe to cause them a
little pain. But, the most popular show, (and the one with the
biggest prizes) is called The Running Man.  In this show the
contestant gets $100 for each hour he is not caught by the game's
hunters (caught means killed), the runner can go anywhere in the
U.S.  that he wants. If the runner makes it 30 days, he gets a large
fortune, of course the record is 8 days, if the runner dies, the
money he has earned goes to his family. There are some rules that
make this game harder to win, first, the runner has to mail in two
15 minute video tapes every day to prove that he is still alive (of
course the hunters cannot use the mail to track him with, the people
who run the game promise the runners this !), second, these 15
minute tapes & still pictures of the runner are sent out every night
on FreeVee during the games time slot. There are rewards for
information about the runner available to the general public, and
information leading to a kill merits a large reward.
     I liked the book, it does get slow in the last third of the
story, but on the whole it moved pretty well. The main character is
one of the runners, he has a sick daughter and he can't afford
medical help. I don't want to say much more about the plot, as I
think any more would spoil the book for anyone who does read it. As
usual, King has done a fine job of character developement, and the
vivid descriptions of the U.S. of the future are quite easy to
picture. I would rate this book as a 7 (out of 10).
     I got this book in an English edition which as of last week was
still in print. The other books were also available in the English
editions, you might try having your favorite book store order them
from england for you. Since the books are hard to find here, I don't
think that they will stay in print in England for very long.
                      KEN COBB

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 85 00:33:44 CST
From: P1904%UMVMA.BITNET@Berkeley (Jeff Little)
Subject: Comment / Question

I would just like to say that I am a very new subscriber to
SF-Lovers and so far it has been very enjoyable.  I started with
Issue 107 and beeing so new to the digest I fell for the April fools
issue 100%.

After seeing the note in I109 about Star Trek 4, I was wondering if
anyone out there has any real new info about it??  To my knowlege a
new movie should be comming out 18 months after the last one.

 Jeff
 (P1904@UMVMA.BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 85 00:33:44 CST
From: P1904%UMVMA.BITNET@Berkeley (Jeff Little)
Subject: Question

Does anyone know when and if another Star Wars movie is in the
works??  It seems like it is about time to hear something about it.

 Jeff
 (P1904@UMVMA.BITNET)

------------------------------

From: ritcv!krf7527@topaz.arpa (Keith Fieldhouse)
Subject: Re: Silent Running
Date: 3 Apr 85 23:31:07 GMT

Another (perhaps) interesting bit of info about Silent Running.
When Battlestar Galactica first came out, 20th Century Fox, the
producers of Star Wars, initiated a lawsuit claiming that Galactica
was essentially a copy of Star Wars (Or should I say A New Hope?).
It seems that the cylons (remember them?) were just a little *too*
much like silver Darth Vaders to sit well with Fox.  The producers
of BG (Paramount, I think) filed a counter suit claiming that Star
Wars infringed on their movie, you guessed it, Silent Running.
Apparently they felt that R2D2 was an awful lot like Huey, Luey, and
Dewy from SR.  I seem to recall that somewhere along the line, both
suits went up in a puff of irrelevance.  Does anybody know for sure
what happened?

I find the above rather ironic considering what was to become the
deluge of SF films that followed the rather spectacular success of
Star Wars.  Fox wouldn't have had much time for anything if they
tried to stop everybody who attempted to cash in on the success of
SW.
                        Keith Fieldhouse
                        @ The Rochester Institute of Technology
                        . . .rochester!ritcv!krf7527

------------------------------

Subject: SILENT RUNNING
From: ALS050%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (STEVE JOHNSON)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1985 09:41 EST

    This is in response to Mark Leeper's attack on Silent Running.
The whole thing is academic , but, i just couldn't stand by and let
a argument of that length ,based on an erroneous assumption, off
scott free.
    Yes Mark, life could exist on earth without land plant life.
Water covers about 7/10ths of this planet, and ocean plant life
(mostly algae I believe) produces about 70 percent of our oxygen.
Were it left at that our problem wouldn't be lack of oxygen (a 30
percent drop in the partial pressure of oxygen would not be
dangerous to most people) but the increase in the partial pressure
of CO2.
    Who could say what would happen if all plant life disappeared?
I have an idea though that the ocean plant life would pick up the
slack. More CO2 available, a general warming trend (brought on by
the greenhouse effect), and an increase in the ocean surface area
(caused by melting polar ice caps) would make ocean plant life more
abundant and effective. There would be a lot of major changes on
earth but homo s. would still have oxygen.
    I'm a cs/math person myself , so the above is based on common
sense rather than a deep biological background. But I'm *sure* that
if I have overlooked anything major that somebody will let me know
about it.

p.s. I enjoyed Silent Running despite its heavy emotional appeal.

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz.arpa (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Trumbull
Date: 7 Apr 85 04:38:20 GMT

>> What's Trumbull doing today?
>
> Trumbull has at least two projects going.  The first is a Showscan
> process film for Expo 85 which is in Montreal, I believe.  The
> film is part of an amusement park ride: you are part of a
> commercial space shuttle flight in the near future.

Nobody else has said anything, so I suppose I'd better.  Expo 85
isn't in Montreal; it's in Tsukuba, in Japan not too far from Tokyo.
Expo 86, however, will be in Vancouver (which is at least in the
same country as Montreal).

The theme of Expo 85 is science and technology for man at home; the
theme of Expo 86 will be transportation.  Therefore it seems more
likely that the Trumbull film talked about will be shown in
Vancouver...especially since it is described as "in progress" and
Expo 85 has already opened.

Mark Brader
in the same country at Montreal, whatever they say

------------------------------

From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: SF movie explosions
Date: 7 Apr 85 20:50:01 GMT

> Alastair Milne points out that the explosions in SILENT RUNNING
> are instances of that rare thing, a convincing \in vacuo/
> explosion in an SF movie.  Unfortunately, I can't think of even
> ONE other example.  Can anyone else?

It's been a while since I've seen the flick, but I think I remember
noticing at the time that the explosion of the asteroid in STTMP was
fairly well done.
                                                --pH

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: SF movie explosions
Date: 8 Apr 85 04:13:50 GMT

> From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
>
> Alastair Milne points out that the explosions in SILENT RUNNING
> are instances of that rare thing, a convincing \in vacuo/
> explosion in an SF movie.  Unfortunately, I can't think of even
> ONE other example.  Can anyone else?

A couple:

(1) The "expulsion" of Dave Boman from the excursion pod in 2001
(2) Any explosion in Star Trek: the Motion Picture
(3) The explosion of the klingon vessel in the Star Trek
    episode: Day of the Dove

And that may be the complete list...

...it is something that has irritated me in the past also...

Oh, and incidently: if the microphone recording an explosion in a
      vacuum is hit by a "puff" of expanding gas from the explosion,
      or a shock wave of more violent intensity, there will, in
      fact, be a noise...

Also incidently: why are there so many explosions in space in all
      these movies anyway? --- just a thought...

                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Apr 85 1100-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #118
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:

           Books - Drake & Varley & Zelazny & A Request,
           Films - Silent Running (3 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Miss Manners &
                   Author Support for Reagan's SDI &
                   Computers in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: BIRDS OF PREY by David Drake
Date: 8 Apr 85 21:54:12 GMT

                    BIRDS OF PREY by David Drake
                         Baen, 1985, $7.95.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     I've reviewed a number of books published by Bluejay Books of
late.  This time I have switched to a competitor in publishing trade
paperbacks, Baen Books.  David Drake is known for good military
science fiction, I am told (by a friend who liked his HAMMER'S
SLAMMERS).  BIRDS OF PREY is sort of a change of pace for him.

     Instead of setting his story in the future, Drake sets it in
the ancient past--"262 A.D.," the cover says, though I don't
remember the date coming up in the story.  The cover also says,
"Roman courage against alien ferocity in a battle of the ages."
Well, if you buy books for the blurbs, you deserve your $7.95 back.
While BIRDS OF PREY is undeniably science fiction, that doesn't
become really important to the plot until the last forty pages or
so.  For the most part, this is just a straight-forward historical
novel.  There is an encounter with an alien fairly early in the
book, and another character is actually from the future, but these
things don't affect the plot a whole lot in the first 80% of the
book.  The story just follows the adventures of Aulus Perennius,
agent of Rome.

     As an adventure tale, pure and simple, the story really is not
too bad, though some of the "clever" escapes from enemies in the
story are predictable.  The extended scenes of naval battles are
quite good and have the feel of being well-researched.  The
language, however, seems a little less convincing.  Romans keep
using phrases like "the mission was scrubbed" or "for shit's
sake..."  Of course, I don't think anyone remembers how Romans
swore, or doubts that they did, but the phrases used to swear, in
particular, seem several hundred years out of place.

     As a science fiction novel, BIRDS OF PREY is somewhat less
satisfying.  It is a 350-page novel with less science fiction
content than you would find in an average Dr. Who story.  The
presence of the aliens is not well explained, and considering their
technological superiority, they are much too easily defeated.

     I can recommend BIRDS OF PREY as a pleasant reading experience
even if it is rather inadequate as a science fiction story.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: bgsuvax!duncan@topaz.arpa (Comer Duncan)
Subject: A Demon question
Date: 8 Apr 85 01:26:56 GMT

I am a John Varley fan ( Titan, Wizard, Demon, Millenium, etc.) and
I have a question about the last book of the trilogy that started
with Titan, Demon.  I have seen it in the enlarged paperback size,
and I am wondering if it is already in the regular paperback size. I
am reading this series and want to fill out the trilogy, but don't
want to pay more for an enlarged cover. If it isn't in the smaller
size yet, I'd like to know whether it's going to be out soon.

------------------------------

From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller)
Date: 8 Apr 1985 1827-EST (Monday)
Subject: Trumps of Doom

A while back (end of March?) somebody asked about Trumps of Doom.
The story is told from the viewpoint of Merlin, Corwin's son who was
introduced at the end of Courts of Chaos.

SEMI-SPOILER: Corwin is not involved in the book, and is barely
mentioned.  The action takes place primarily on Earth, where Merlin
is some kind of a Computer Systems Designer, and in Amber, where
Random is ruling without open opposition.

------------------------------

From: ritcv!krf7527@topaz.arpa (Keith Fieldhouse)
Subject: What is the name of this book?
Date: 9 Apr 85 01:25:16 GMT

Hello,

The following is a plea for help.  The book I am about to describe
was read many years ago -- before I was really interested in SF.  As
such, I have no idea who wrote it or what its title is.  The only
thing I can provide, besides the rather shaky plot synopsis is the
fact that it was published in a paperback version with a greenish
cover.  On to the plot:

There are several reports of prehistoric "things" roaming around --
Dinosaurs, cavemen etc.  A group of people decide to investigate (a
fairly reasonable thing to do, I suppose).

This group of people find a research laboratory which has actually
created a miniature universe.  Yup, that's right they started with
an atom, put it in a tank, applied Big Bang and heated slowly or
something like that.  It turns out the prehistoric scenes are the
result of some previously malfunctioning equipment projecting scenes
from the little tiny worlds in the mini-universe all over the
neighborhood.  This of course scared the be-jabbers off the
neighbors and off went our group.

Well, the group gets a good chuckle out of all this especially when
they find out that the scientists have some even better equipment.
Now, if you concentrate real hard on one of the planets, you can
enter the mind of one of its inhabitants.  The middle portion of the
book is taken up with our heroes having vicarious(sp?)  adventures
on the mini-planets.  By the way, the development of the
mini-universe is orders of magnitude faster than our own, so you can
spend several months on a planet in only a few hours of "real" time.

As this universe continues to advance, its inhabitants realize that
it is finite (hemmed in by the tank).  In fact, the mini-universe is
about to collapse in on itself.  The remainder of the book deals
with some of the leaders of the mini-universe, in cahoots with some
of the original group trying to "break free" against the wishes of
the scientists.  I won't spoil the ending in case someone is
actually reading the book now.

My question is this: Does *anyone* know the title and/or author of
the book?  Does anyone have a clue?  I don't mean to indicate with
my rather flippant description that it was a bad book.  As I recall
except for the rather errrr... interesting bits of science the book
was very engrossing.  Any help anyone can offer will be cause for
great celebration on my part.  I'll even name my kids after you.
Nah, I'll name my goldfish after you.

Thanks for your help

Keith Fieldhouse
@ The Rochester Institute of Technology
{allegra | seismo}!rochester!ritcv!krf7527

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 85 11:59 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Silent Running

In regards to the comments about Silent Running:

60-90% of the oxygen-producing plants on Earth are plankton and
algae in the oceans.  The loss of the land-bound plants would be a
severe strain on the ecosystem, but not totally devastating.

Personally, I enjoyed Silent Running, but I feel that it had some
weaknesses that have been explored. I did not think it was totally
unrealistic.

     Brett Slocum
     (ARPA : Slocum@HI-MULTICS )
     (UUCP : ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum )

------------------------------

From: watrose!ajlill@topaz.arpa (Tony Lill)
Subject: Re: Silent Running
Date: 8 Apr 85 19:17:42 GMT

>It seems that the cylons (remember them?) were just a little *too*
>much like silver Darth Vaders to sit well with Fox.  The producers
>of BG (Paramount, I think) filed a counter suit claiming that Star
>Wars infringed on their movie, you guessed it, Silent Running.
>Apparently they felt that R2D2 was an awful lot like Huey, Luey,
>and Dewy from SR.

No wonder that BG used the ships from Silent running as part of the
fleet.  I also noticed that the interior of the Vipers and the
interior of the Starfighter from Buck Rogers (yes I still watch that
show every weekend) are very similar.  Same producers no doubt.

Hmmm, maybe Fox was justified....

                Tony Lill
                539 Grand Valley Dr.
                Cambridge, Ont., Canada
                1-519-653-9735
                {allegra,linus,decvax,utzoo}!watmath!watrose!ajlill

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Silent Running (**Spoilers**)
Date: 09 Apr 85 00:01:40 PST (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>  The recent mention of Silent Running prompts me to post some
>  comments about the film -- I get annoyed about these elements in
>  the plot every time I see it.  First off, Dern (I don't recall
>  the character's name, so I'll use the actor's) is very concerned
>  with the fate of the plants and animals in the eco-domes.  He
>  goes berserk when Earth orders them destroyed. So what does he
>  do?  He DESTROYS most of them, just in order to kill off the
>  other crewmen!  This is ridiculous!

   He does *not* go berserk (and the character's name is Freeman
Lowell).  He is deeply hurt; but his response is suppressed anger
(he is introverted anyway), even withdrawal.  He is in one of the
last domes, furiously working, as most of the others are destroyed.
What is going to do?  Argue all of Earth into recanting?  He would
sooner be alone.  But when it comes time to destroy the dome he's
in, his temper breaks, and he fights back.  He kills one of the
other 3 men in a fight with a shovel, and he traps the remaining 2
in one of the other domes before it is blown up.  But he is bady
disturbed by having done so, and never gets over it.  Destroys
"MOST" of them???  He personally destroys *ONE*, among all that the
others have destroyed.

   It is true that, in the end, only one dome survives.  But that is
because he has only one drone he can program to care for it.
Perhaps he might have jettisoned all the others, to give them a
chance, before he destroyed the ship; but again, perhaps the thought
of leaving all the animals untended, unfed in their park environment
seems more cruel to him than giving them the quickest, cleanest end
possible.

>  Secondly, then what does he do? He heads out, away from the sun,
>  so that the plants die off and the stuff in the remaining
>  dome(s?)  freezes. He could have selected an orbit that put him
>  on the opposite side of the sun from earth, still shielded from
>  them but allowing the sunlight to keep the dome contents alive.
>  He doesn't.

    The heading of the ships was no doing of his.  That was preset.
He was part of a fleet that was already well under way.  Nor could
he take any massive evasive action, because most of the fleet was
still there, and they would pursue him (thinking he needed help, of
course).  The ships were equipped to provide light and heat for the
forests well beyond the range where the sun would do any good.  But
in his anger over Earth's decision, and guilt over killing his
companions (to mention just a couple), he forgot this until his
memory was jogged, thinking rather about blights and diseases.  And
how would you do, essentially alone on a huge ship, out beyond
Saturn?

    And, although it really doesn't matter, it seems to me you
haven't thought about the mind-boggling distances involved.  To get
to the other side of Earth's orbit, just from Earth, never mind near
Saturn, is 192 million miles.  Care to think about how long it would
take him to get there, and what the other ships in the fleet (who
would be watching him all the time) would be doing?

    Besides, he would probably have made the same final choice that
he did whether he was opposite Earth or beyond Saturn.

>  Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed.
>  They could have called back the crew, and Dern could have chosen
>  to stay as a hermit or whatever, and the ships could have orbited
>  endlessly at no cost to Earth.

   The reason was that they (the forests) simply weren't wanted:
nobody gave a damn about them, except for Lowell, and maybe some few
like him.  Nor do I think Lowell wanted to be a hermit.  He just
wanted to keep away from his loud, devil-may-care, who-gives-a-damn
companions on the ship.  And even if the ships could have orbited
endlessly at no cost (and I'll believe that when I see it), the
reason for the decision to dump the forests was that they wanted the
ships back, to do something "useful" (one assumes this means
"profitable").  It's not that they wanted to put the forestry
somewhere else: it's that they didn't want it at all.

>  This sort of basic plot failure spoils what could otherwise be a
>  really enjoyable movie.

   I certainly agree that basic plot failures do spoil potentially
good movies: you sit there thinking: "there's no reason for this
story to have happened".  But I hardly think the complaint applies
to "Silent Running".
                                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Apr 85 15:09:17-PST
From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Austenites

        I respond to Jody Patilla's plea ("Austenites unite!").
        Jane Austen wrote some of the finest novels I have read, and
I probably wore out my welcome on this BBOARD some months back
complaining about the majority of SF stories not even coming close
to her characterization and eloquence.  I like SF, don't
misunderstand, but why oh why can't most of today's writers share
some of her love of words.
        Comparing Miss Manners to her struck me as odd at first, but
then I realized there were, indeed, similarities in the narrative
voice.  For those who have not yet read "Miss Manner's Guide to
Excruciatingly Correct Behavior," I recommend you get a copy and at
least browse.  You would be surprised how simple manners can be.

                                            ... ron cain (sri-ai)

------------------------------

From: reed!wab@topaz.arpa (William Baker)
Subject: Robert Heinlein and SDI
Date: 7 Apr 85 22:39:35 GMT

        I was reading somewheres that President Reagan's Strategic
Defense Initiative, .i.e. "Star Wars", had split a great many
interest groups, including science fiction writers.  The article
said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the initiative and
Robert Heinlein for it.  I knew that Heinlein was still writing, but
I didn't know that he was still politically active as he was in the
50's and 60's.
        Has anyone seen an article with such statements attributed
to him?  If so, I would certainly like a pointer to it.  I am not
surprised that he would take such a stand, but he has been misquoted
in the past and I would like to see just what it was that he said.




                                                Bill Baker
                                                tektronix!reed!wab

------------------------------

From: hpcnoa!dat@topaz.arpa (dat)
Subject: computer SF?
Date: 2 Apr 85 17:32:00 GMT

        This might be treading on old ground, but I'm curious what
people think is the best SF book (or story) they've read that has a
computer as the main 'character' or an integral part of the story...

        I'll wait to post my favorites...

                                        Dave Taylor

------------------------------

From: solar!alan@topaz.arpa (A.LIGHT)
Subject: Computers in SF
Date: 8 Apr 85 20:51:28 GMT

My favorite movie which featured computers has got to be Colosus:
The Forbin Project.  If you get a chance to see it (It's on TV
pretty often) it is well worth your time.

One point of honorable mention: Credit has got to go to the writers
of the movie Alien.  It was one of the first movies which featured a
computer where you had to use a terminal to talk to the dammed
thing!

While we are on the subject, books, movies, and TV shows usually had
a name for the computers they featured.  We all know that the
computer in 2001 was named HAL.  But how about the names of the
computers in the following:

1.  The TV show "I Dream of Jeanne"
2.  Alien
3.  Rollerball
4.  Wargames
5.  The Asimov short story "The Last Question"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Apr 85 0913-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #119
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Apr 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:

             Books - Ellison & Varley & Some Reviews &
                     A Request Answered,
             Films - Night of the Zombies & Silent Running (3 msgs) &
                     Ladyhawke & Invasion of the Star Creatures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Apr 85 09:48:19-PST
From: Jackie <Burhans%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: Speaking of Harlan...
Cc: ploetz%ECLD@ECLA

The movie A Boy and His Dog was playing in my neighborhood this
weekend so, after hearing so much about it here on the net, I
decided to go see it.  Now, if you people had TOLD me I would get to
see my favorite Miami vice, Sonny Crockett--well I would have gone
to see this long ago.  Seriously, I thought it was a well-done,
fast-paced little flick true to the Ellison ironical mode.  This
movie, I might add, "watched" very much like a short story (fast
pace, clever dialogue, ends with a twist...).

If any of you personally know any writers you may recognize the
following phenomena: you know the person and what they sound like
and you read one of their publised works--be it a book, magazine or
newspaper article AND you find yourself reading it "in their voice."
That is, you "hear" the story in their voice, with their inflections
and intonations.  Well, I found myself experiencing the opposite of
this with this movie. I don't know Harlan Ellison--but I have read
one of his short stories (Repent, Harlequin...which I really
enjoyed!) and many of his columns for the L.A.Weekly and I have even
seen a videotaped interview with himself.  Maybe its just that he
has a very recognizable style...

Anyway, this movie was in a double-feature with Repo-man, (I guess
R-M doesn't really qualify as SF, but it was how shall we say,
intense (and filmed in my neighborhood!)). A real fun evening!

------------------------------

From: ihu1g!rls@topaz.arpa (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Re: A Demon question
Date: 9 Apr 85 13:29:52 GMT

>  I am a John Varley fan ( Titan, Wizard, Demon, Millenium, etc.)
>  and I have a question about the last book of the trilogy that
>  started with Titan, Demon.  I have seen it in the enlarged
>  paperback size, and I am wondering if it is already in the
>  regular paperback size. I am reading this series and want to fill
>  out the trilogy, but don't want to pay more for an enlarged
>  cover. If it isn't in the smaller size yet, I'd like to know
>  whether it's going to be out soon.

The infamous trade paper back.  Too bad another science fiction
author has begun using a bad Frank Herbert ploy.

                                Rick Schieve

------------------------------

From: ahutb!dls@topaz.arpa (d.l.skran)
Subject: White Rose, To Reign in Hell, Cross the Stars
Date: 9 Apr 85 22:55:35 GMT

                    An April Vacation's Reading
                           By Dale Skran
Over my Easter vacation, I read three new books. As I have found
more and more of late, I enjoyed the two fantasy volumes more than
the science fiction.

                          To Reign In Hell
                          by Steven Brust

This book deserves the accolades bestowed on it by Rogar Zelazny in
the forward - "engaging story with consummate grace and genuine
artistry." The story follows the events in Heaven that led to the
falling out between Satan and Yaweh. Although less than convincing
as theology, as a tale of gods who are men, TO REIGN IN HELL must be
placed with LORD OF LIGHT as a masterwork.  Brust's writing has much
to offer: beautiful language, rich characters, a haunting ring of
truth, and a larger significance. At the end, I lusted for Lilith,
respected Satan, and pitied Yaweh. Their final battle and ultimate
destiny is at once unexpected and plausible.

                          Cross the Stars
                           by David Drake

Drake continues the chronicles of "Hammers Slammers," a mercenary
outfit in the Pournelle tradition with this tale of a future
Odysseus on an interstellar Odyssey as a retiring "Slammer," Don
Slade, journeys homeward.  Although episodic, the story rolls right
along, keeping the reader interested in what might have been, in
other hands, an unremarkable tale of a big strong man. The ideas in
CROSS THE STARS may be less than innovative(although I believe the
method of propulsion used by the Alayans is new), but Drake puts the
bite on the reader as Slade gets into tough spots and tougher moral
choices.

                           The White Rose
                            by Glen Cook

The WHITE ROSE shares with CROSS THE STARS the distinction of being
a tale of a mercenary company forced into tough spots and tougher
decisions. Cook's Black Company will linger long in the annals of
F&SF warriors. The WHITE ROSE concludes what may(or may not)be a
trilogy(THE BLACK COMPANY, THE SHADOWS LINGER, and THE WHITE ROSE)
chronicling how the Black Company came to serve the Lady in her war
with the rebel, how the rebel was defeated, how the Dominator rose
from the grave only to be put down by the Lady, and how to save
Darling the Black Company turned against the Lady. I consider Cook's
series to be many cuts above standard fantasy fare. Cook writes
honestly about hard men facing tough choices, and doesn't gloss over
the grim face of war or allow easy(Dorsi style) victories for the
good guys.  Best of all, he has created two of the strongest female
characters in fantasy, Darling and the Lady.

The Lady is a fit successor to Weinbaum's Black Flame, an immortal
sorceress, powerful beyond human ken, yet dogged by a spark of
humanity. She finds her nemesis in Darling(The White Rose), a "magic
null" who fuels her suburb generalship with driving hate. Told by
the Black Company's doctor and annalist, Croaker, THE WHITE ROSE is
by far the best of the series, and the others are good! Among these
and other strong characters Cook builds a fantasy world that
includes the Barrowland and the Plain of Fear, the wind whales and
Toad Killer Dog, Soulcatcher and the Limper.

Perhaps a preference for fantasy comes with age, as I recently
turned 27, but I recommend the entire Black Company series strongly
to anyone who enjoyed the Slammers or John Christian Falkenberg, and
also to anyone who hates cute unicorn fantasy and loves dark,
mysterious, tortured women with a soft spot that leads them to a
glorious destiny. I also recommend TO REIGN IN HELL to anyone who
enjoyed LORD OF LIGHT.  Neither book is perfect - the characters in
TO REIGN IN HELL may be overly monothematic, and the ending of THE
WHITE ROSE may or may not be consistent with the magic used up to
that point in the series, but I couldn't put either one down once I
got started.  Both of these books make Power's ANUBIS GATES seem
pale. Power has action and ideas. Brust and Cook add character,
passion, pain, and a shuddering glimpse of the final evil.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 07:23:31-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Miniature Universe
To: "ritcv!krf7527@topaz.arpa"@TL-20B.ARPA

The novel with the dinosaurs, miniature universe &c is

        David Grinnell : Edge of Time
        Ace pb M-162

No ISBN since originally published in 1958!  My copy also has the
green cover with black rocketlike things and a female figure holding
a large glowing white beachball (or universe).  The science is
really wacky, but I like the story anyway

Robert Firth

<bibliography is my recreation>

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES (non-spoiler -- uit came pre-spoiled)
Date: 8 Apr 85 21:55:46 GMT

                        NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Ever since DAWN OF THE DEAD turned out to be a box office
bonanza in Europe, the dead have not rested easily in Italy.
Virtually anything seems to wake them up--industrial wastes, voodoo,
mad scientific experiments, air pollution, And they always wake up
with the munchies for those of us who are still alive.  In NIGHT OF
THE ZOMBIES the wakeup call comes from nuclear radiation.  Some sort
of weird experimental radiation is released from a reactor.  And
suddenly there are a bunch of dead people whose faces have turned
black and who are walking around with a gait resembling the
Frankenstein monster looking for human snacks.
     Now if that premise sounds absurd, wait till you hear the next
one.  This all takes place in New Guinea, where an American SWAT
team is vacationing together en masse--without families or friends
outside the team--but with their uniforms and their guns.  There
they run into a glamorous TV reporter who enjoys running
bare-breasted while communing with native tribesmen.  Not that it
has much to do with the plot; there isn't one.  The film is just a
string of attacks by black-faced zombies.  At the conclusion, there
is a minor surprise ending that makes no sense.
     The film is directed by someone hiding behind the name Vincent
Dawn.  (Somebody ought to compile a cross-reference of Italian
horror film directors and the Anglicized names they use.)  In any
case, this is not the Lucio Fulci NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES, but the
Vincent Dawn film of the same name.  Not much entertainment value
here.  Rate it -2 on the -4 to +4 scale.  No surprise there, I
guess.
                                Mark R. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahuta!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 09:06 PST
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: "Silent Running"
Cc: cvl!hsu@topaz.ARPA (Dave Hsu)

>> 2) How do the drones work?
> By this, what do you mean? The legless child actors inside?
>
> dave

Yes,

 I keep forgeting that I'm dealing with sci-fi fans who know all
this stuff It was a surprise to me when I found out that the drones
were actors in costume.

Wendel

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 85 13:23:35 EST
From: Jon Trudel <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Silent Running explained

>...He DESTROYS most of them, just in order to kill off the other
>crewmen!  This is ridiculous!

Well, I could go on about this, but I will condense it for my sake.
I made a similar argument about Dr Heywood Floyd in 2010 when he
shouted "Hurry!"  You must realize, as I eventually did, is that
people do not react logically in times of extreme crisis.
Apparently, Dern's state of mind was NOT sound, since his
"livelihood" was literally going out the door.  How would you react
of your boss told you you could NEVER use your computer again?  Do
you think your resulting reaction would be ridiculous?  Extreme
perhaps, but not ridiculous.  (this is a bad analogy, so no flames
about it, please)

>... He heads out, away from the sun, so that the plants die off and
>the stuff in the remaining dome(s?)  freezes...

I will not debate the ethics of this move, because there are none.
Consider the 20-whateverth century, when there is only a miniscule
smattering of plants and animals.  Horticulture is virtually
non-existent, and there is only one person who takes care of any
plants, Dern. He obviously didn't remember everything there is to
know about the subject, and had no idea of the consequences of
placing the plants far from sunlight.

>Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed.
>... and the ships could have orbited endlessly at no cost to Earth.

A good answer, but completely wrong.  The ships were cargo vessels
that were orbiting idly.  The decision to destroy the pods was a
business move.  It was decided that the ships could be better used
for what they were designed, and that was to carry cargo to Earth
colonies, and I remember seeing the logo of American Airlines on the
side of the ship (Valley Forge?).  As for a reason, do you think
that the shrewd businessman of the 20-whateverth century would tie
up several of his most valuable transport ships by having them hold
a 'useless' cargo that brings no monetary gains?  Not bloody likely!

I still maintain that this is one of the best SF films I have seen,
and if you don't read in my personal preference qualifier there, too
bad.  Like Nyssa of Traken, I too cried at the end. (I was young and
gullible once...)
                                        Jonathan D. Trudel

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 85 16:45:10 EST
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: re: Silent Running (Spoilers)

First, Dern (I can't remember the character's name either) saw
himself in a life or death struggle: him and the plants against the
rest of the crew.  He blew up exactly one dome.  All of the others
except the one that survives were blown up by the other members of
the crew.

Second, the plan was to get lost going through the rings of Saturn.
He would have been tracked to the other side of the Earth and
"rescued."  Sure, we all realize that getting further from the sun
is going to cut down the sunlight needed by the plants.  (It was the
sunlight, not the cold, that was the problem.  The climate was
maintained by machinery.)  I'm not sure I would think of it if I
were in a similar situation.  Living in a spaceship for months on
end, I suspect one would tend to forget about there being anything
good outside the spaceship.  But, Christ, with my leg badly hurt and
stealing a spaceship, I doubt I'd be very rational even if I thought
of the fact that the plants need the sun to be a given distance
away.

Third, the actual reason for the destruction of the forests was that
the government stopped paying rental for the spaceships.  The
company that owned them wanted them back.  They were actually
freighters and, presumably, there was plenty of freight to be
dragged around.

I, too, think this is the only SF movie I've seen that made me cry.
I was about 25, though, not 11.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 12:48:22 PST
From: geacc022%timevx@cit-hamlet.arpa
Subject: Ladyhawke

    I saw a "sneak" preview of Ladyhawke last weekend (some sneak,
they ran large ads in the LA Times) and thought I'd pass some
comments on.  I had really mixed feelings about this movie.  I liked
the story idea, but I kept getting annoyed at the film makers.
Example: Through the whole first hour of the movie, the viewer is
gradually shown the curse and what it's done to these two people.
Then, halfway through the movie, we sit down and have some
expository dialogue to explain exactly what the situation is, how it
happened, and what's likely to happen next.  Since I went in to the
movie knowing the basic premise (I think most people already know,
and I won't spoil it for those who don't), I kept saying to myself,
come on, let's get the prologue over with and start some action.
There are one or two very nice examples of the Movie Multiple Fight
Sequence, where the bad guys come after the good guy *one at a time*
until we run out of bad guys.

    Still, I wanted very much to give this movie some good words.
It is a nice story, even if the ending is predictable, and the
characters become likable after a while.  The scenery struck me as
very medieval (but I'm not an expert).  I suppose my short answer to
the question "Did you like the movie?" is "Yes, BUT..."

                        Gary Ansok
                        GEACC022%TIMEVX @ CIT-HAMLET.ARPA
                        GEA @ CALTECH.BITNET
                        ...ucbvax!cithep!timevx#geacc022

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 14:55 PST
From: Provan@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Invasion of the Star Creatures

It's settled now: I just saw *THE* worst SF movie of all time.  It's
a 1963 movie called "Invasion of the Star Creatures."  It was every
bit as bad as "Plan 9 from Outer Space" except it was *trying* to be
funny.  It ends up being sorta meta-stupid: trying to be stupid and
being stupid about it.  It was sorta funny in a Zen way.  Nothing
was really funny, but I had to laugh at myself for watching it
through to the end.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 85 1011-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #120
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Dick & Heinlein & Varley,
                 Films - Silent Running (6 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Computers in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 10:05:38 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Philip K. Dick

Someone in #115 (I'm sorry, but I forget who; I still haven't
figured out the UNIX mail command, so I don't have the Digest lying
around on my screen) asked about the soon-to-be rerelease of Philip
Dick's _In_Milton_Lumky_ _Territory_.  Quickly dredging out my copy
of _Philip_K._Dick:_In_His_Own_Words (Gregg Rickman; Long Beach CA,
Fragments West/the Valentine Press, 1984), a fantastic,
indispensable work for anyone `into' Philip Dick :

        GR: It is my understanding that you quit writing for a year
        in 1960-1961 out of frustration that your best works weren't
        being printed -- your mainstream, literary novels, like
        _Confessions_of_ _a_Crap_Artist_.  Did you have other
        mainstream novels you were trying to sell?

        PKD: Would you believe 13?  Some as long as 600 pages.
        Slave labor.  . . . Most of those were written around the
        time I started selling, like 1951, '52, '53.  Most of them
        are really fairly early.

        . . .

        PKD: _In_Milton_Lumky_Territory_ -- that's about a salesman,
        by and large a rehash of Arthur Miller's _Death_of_a_
        Salesman_, which had influenced me enormously ideologically.
        The whole thing "attention must be paid to this man," that
        fitted my ideology exactly, that was completely how I felt.
        There was great dignity in this salesman, there was great
        dignity in his aging and suffering and death. . .

No explicit list of the mainstream novels is given in the book, but
I found references to these:

Confessions of a Crap Artist  [published in 1975]
The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly Alike [published 1984 by Mark
  Ziesling]
In Milton Lumky Territory  [to be published by Dragon Press]
Puttering About in a Small Land  [published Academy Chicago]
Mary and the Giant  [unpublished]
Gather Yourselves Together  [unpublished]
The Broken Bubble of Thisbe Holt [unpublished.  "It's just a bad
  book"-PKD]
Voices From the Street  [unpublished.  This is the 600-page one]
A Time For George Stavros  [unpublished]
Nicholas and the Higs  [unpublished]

I recommend _...In_His_Own_Words very highly to any PKD enthusiast.
It contains a short biography, an essay by Rickman which attempts to
classify Dick's novels into four periods, and a long series of
interviews (often more like conversations) with Dick about his
feelings, life, and written work.  The publisher is undoubtedly
obscure (I picked up the book at a bookstore / comics shop in Long
Beach), but you may be able to persuade a bookstore to order it.

                            --Peter Alfke      (jpa144@cit-vax)

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: NofTheBeast - True STINKER
Date: 10 Apr 85 15:41:00 GMT

The Number of the Beast

Attn.: Sci-Fi General advises that DANGER to mental health increases
with amount of NoftB read.

There was some discussion of the NoftB on this network, and here is
my 2-cents' worth:

This book is probably the most pretentious, most time wasting book I
have EVER read, and it is probably the only book (in any subject
matter) that I have ever thrown into the garbage chute.

I must admit that I was having a great time during the first hundred
or so pages. Later, my enjoyment turned into nightmare as the
characters began screaming at each other "pipe down" every page, and
began to display an I.Q. level of 270, happily traveling on the
yellow brick road. Heinlein created a tight situation; he also
invented a super human capability for one of his characters to deal
with the situation. The characters, now truly bloated smart-ass-
genius-prodigy-philosophers, talk in phrases that would put the best
of Superman comics to shame. The pseudo-philosophical quips and
pieces of whizdom that were enjoyable in "Time Enough For Love", are
completely out-of-order here, and make as much sense as the blurbs
of a loonie who had one too much to drink.  Having read SF books
from all parts of the spectrum, [Brunner, Lem, Asimov, Clarke,
Sheckley, Farmer, Pohl, Ellison, Niven, A.D. Foster, P.K.  Dick,
Hogan, R. Forward, D. Adams, Varley etc.], I consider this book an
insult to SF readership's intelligence and sensibilities, and it
should be avoided. I had the expectation of something as good as
"Moon is a Harsh Mistress" or "Time Enough for Love". I forgot that
very few SF writers can live up to their name consistently.

So, close your eyes in your favorite book store, and grab a SF book
at random. The probability is that you will get something better
than NoftB.

Oz
Electric:       {ihnp4|decvax|..}!{utzoo|utcs}!yetti!oz

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: A Demon question
Date: 10 Apr 85 18:50:35 GMT

> The infamous trade paper back.  Too bad another science fiction
> author has begun using a bad Frank Herbert ploy.
>
>                               Rick Schieve

Wait a minute.  I agree with you about trade paperbacks, but...

**FLAME ON**

DON'T BLAME THE AUTHOR FOR THE PACKAGING OF HIS BOOK!!!

**FLAME OFF**

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Silent Running
Date: 9 Apr 85 19:28:03 GMT

        Just want to add my 'no' vote to M.R. Leeper's on SILENT
RUNNING.  Yes, I thought the robots were adorable; yes, the SFX were
good, and pretty; yes, Joan Baez is a great singer and a fine lady;
yes, forests and cuddly animals are very nice; but I find myself
unable to like any movie whose story makes as little sense as did
SR. I doubt if Watt, himself, could trivialize the need for
protection of our environment as thoroughly as the film did. Fatuous
and stupid.

                                           Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 03:36:52 PST
From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: Silent Running and loss of oxygen

> sad if these things were gone.  Friend, it wouldn't be sad 'cause
> you need oxygen to be sad.  You ain't got oxygen, you ain't gonna
> be around to miss the chipmunks.  ....  (I really expect someone
> to pop up at this point and say that maybe the Earthlings are
> getting their oxygen from moss or something.

You are correct.  I believe something like 80-90% of the O2
production at the moment is due to green stuff in the oceans.  Not
moss, not anything else on land, there isn't enough of it (though
for sure, every bit will help if things get iffy -- as in ORA:CLE).
But there is a *LOT* of plankton and similar beasties out there.
Remember, about three-quarters (is that the right ratio?) of the
Earth's surface is ocean rather than land.

> Even in the dubious possibility that a stable eco-system is
> possible based on other sources of oxygen, you can't get there
> from here without a whole lot of disruption that would probably
> kill off old Homo Saps anyway.)

Well, as I said, I don't think it's that dubious.  But I have to
agree.  Removing forests will cause us to lose a lot of topsoil
immediately and knock great gaping holes in the ecosystem in other
ways I'm sure -- is there an ecologist out there who can elaborate
for us?
                                        der Mouse
                {ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

From: uwvax!derek@topaz.arpa (Derek Zahn)
Subject: Re: Silent Running
Date: 10 Apr 85 08:53:32 GMT

I cast a 'yea' vote for 'Silent Running' as one of the best SF
movies I've seen.  What impressed me was not the robots or the
special effects or any of that stuff.  What impressed me was the
simple, thoughtful, and meaningful theme (overdone? perhaps).  It is
for the same reason that I liked Rollerball (sue me) -- it differed
from the standard 'shoot-em-up' western ripoffs.

Derek Zahn @ wisconsin
{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek
derek@wisc-rsch.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Apr 1985 08:02:00-PST
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Principal
From: Graphic Designer, DTN 264-5090)
Subject: Picking Silent Running to Death

> He could have selected an orbit that put him on the opposite side
> of the sun from earth, still shielded from them but allowing the
> sunlight to keep the dome contents alive. He doesn't.

The government did studies several years ago, called PROJECT CLARION
to investigate the possibility of a planet hiding on the other side
of the sun.  They quickly discovered that if one was there, it would
become visible within only a few years time.  The gravitational pull
from the other planets would have enough effect to keep both our
orbits slightly different.  If each planet had a duplicate, this
would not be the case.  (This also punches a hole in the plot of
JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN.)  Also, it would be difficult to
"hide" behind the sun when there are space freighters zooming all
over the solar system.

> Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed.
> They could have called back the crew, and Dern could have chosen
> to stay as a hermit or whatever, and the ships could have orbited
> endlessly at no cost to Earth.

Yes, the domes could have drifted on without cost.  The American
Airlines ships they were attached to were designed for cargo
transport, a more profitable venture.  I'm sure AA wasn't concerned
about the 'value' of the crew, only their hefty investment in the
freighters and their commercial cargo (and a lot of that was cast
into space by Dern as an attempt to bluff the other cargo ships into
thinking that his ship was damaged).

But alas, the ships eventually were sold by AA to Glen Larson, only
to appear as the "Agro Ships" on BATTLESTAR GALACTICA.  I guess that
nothing is sacred.

> 2) How do the drones work?
> By this, what do you mean? The legless child actors inside?

They were legless ADULTS.

Randy Dearborn
DEC
Merrimack, NH

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 16:35 PST
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Silent Running, Battlestar Galaticia. Buck Rogers

>>It seems that the cylons (remember them?) were just a little *too*
>>much like silver Darth Vaders to sit well with Fox.  The producers
>>of BG (Paramount, I think) filed a counter suit claiming that Star
>>Wars infringed on their movie, you guessed it, Silent Running.
>>Apparently they felt that R2D2 was an awful lot like Huey, Luey,
>>and Dewy from SR.
>
>No wonder that BG used the ships from Silent running as part of the
>fleet.  I also noticed that the interior of the Vipers and the
>interior of the Starfighter from Buck Rogers (yes I still watch
>that show every weekend) are very similar.  Same producers no
>doubt.

Battlestar Galatcica and Buck Rogers were both filmed and produced
at Universal Studios. (In fact if you ever visit there you will
still see sets used in both shows.) Douglas Trumbul, if memory
serves correctly did the specical effects on all three movies,
(Battlestar G, Buck Rogers, Silent Running). Universal probably got
the footage from SR from him to use in Battlestar. I'm guessing at
this.

Wendel

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 22:10:40-EST
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Silent Walking, Crawling, or Limping

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who disliked Silent Running.
Those cute robots with the silly names...  Maybe I'd like it better
if I saw it again, I don't know.  Maybe we should make a category
for movies that grab at the emotions but have little real content.
(I would nominate Flashdance and Raiders of the Lost Ark to this
category - and I liked these movies, at least the first time).

        Larry

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 85 11:02:14 PST (Tuesday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Computer SF Digest

In case anyone has forgotten, some time ago I requested
recommendations for Computer Science Fiction.  The results are
below.  I'd like to thank everyone who contributed: I was quite
astounded by the response.  I had no idea there were so many CSF
stories.  On the other hand, many of the following DO NOT have
computers as their central theme (or character), but rather mention
them in passing.

The "i" marks after each name indicated the number of "votes" for
each title.  This list is in no particular order (well, maybe
Novels, and then everything else).

SHOCKWAVE RIDER - J. Brunner - iiii
Colossus Trilogy - D.F. Jones - ii
NEUROMANCER - W. Gibson - iii
        -- Short story in Omni years ago same universe
VALENTINA (SOUL IN SAPHIRE) - J. Delaney & M. Stiegler - iiii
        -- about Adolesence of P1 calliber.
THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW - J.P. Hogan - iiii
        -- See also
        -- but there are also interesting CS speculations in
        -- "The Genesis Machine", "Voyage from Yesteryear", and
        -- "Code of the Life Maker";  in "Thrice Upon a Time",
        -- systems programming plays an important part in the story,
        -- but there is no speculation;
THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS - R. Heinlein - iii
THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1 - ??? - i
"Dumb Waiter" - Walter Miller - i
"Press Enter" - John Varley - i
"Dead Stones?" - Gene Wolfe - i
TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON - R. MacAvoy - i
SOFTWARE - R. Rucker - i
        -- sounds like a robot story
BUGS - T. Roszak - i
COMPUTERWORLD - A. E. Van Vogt - i
THE COSMIC COMPUTER - H. Beam Piper - i
THE INTEGRATED MAN - M. Berlyn - i
MOUTHPIECE - E. Wellen - i

-- Thanks to JimDay.pasa for this exhaustive list

"The Evitable Conflict"  (1950) - ASIMOV, ISAAC - i
"The Last Question"  (1956) - ASIMOV, ISAAC - i
"The Life and Times of MULTIVAC"  (1975) - ASIMOV, ISAAC - i
MIDSUMMER CENTURY  [1968] - BLISH, JAMES - i
"The Man Who Hated Machines"  (1957) - BOULLE, PIERRE - i
CATCHWORLD  [1975] - BOYCE, CHRIS - i
"Paradise and Iron"  (1930) - BREUER, MILES J. - i
"Answer"  (1954) - BROWN, FREDRIC - i
MICHAELMAS  [1977] - BUDRYS, ALGIS - i
LARGER THAN LIFE  [1960] - BUZZATI, DINO - i
THE GOD MACHINE  [1968] - CAIDIN, MARTIN - i
"The Metal Horde"  (1930) - CAMPBELL, JOHN W., Jr. - i
"The Nine Billion Names of God"  (1953) - CLARKE, ARTHUR C. - i
THE FOREVER MACHINE  [1957] - CLIFTON, MARK & FRANK RILEY - i
THE ELECTRIC CROCODILE  [1970] - COMPTON, D.G. - i
SCIENCE FICTION THINKING MACHINES  [1954] - CONKLIN, GROFF, ed. - i
VULCAN'S HAMMER  [1960] - DICK, PHILIP K. - i
"Computers Don't Argue"  (1965) - DICKSON, GORDON R. - i
"I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"  (1967) - ELLISON, HARLAN - i
THE NOVEL COMPUTER  [1966] - ESCARPIT, ROBERT - i
THE TIN MEN  [1965] - FRAYN, MICHAEL - i
"The Metal Giants"  (1928) - HAMILTON, EDMOND - i
THE RING OF RITORNEL  [1968] - HARNESS, CHARLES - i
DESTINATION: VOID  [1966] - HERBERT, FRANK - i
THE GREAT COMPUTER  [1966] - JOHANNESSON, OLOF - i
ARRIVE AT EASTERWINE  [1971] - LAFFERTY, R.A. - i
THIS PERFECT DAY  [1970] - LEVIN, IRA - i
"The Ablest Man in the World"  (1879) - MITCHELL, EDWARD PAGE - i
MAN PLUS  [1976] - POHL, FREDERIK - i
TOMORROW SOMETIMES COMES  [1951] - RAYER, FRANCIS G. - i
"Going Down Smooth"  (1968) - SILVERBERG, ROBERT - i
"The Machine" (1935) - STUART, DON A. (aka John W. Campbell, Jr.) -i
COMPUTERS, COMPUTERS, COMPUTERS: IN FICTION AND IN VERSE [1977] -
   VAN
TASSEL, DENNIE, ed. - i
NUNQUAM [1979] - L. Durrell - i
TUNC [1979] - L. Durrell - i

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Apr 85 1039-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #121
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:

               Books - King (2 msgs) & Book Request,
               Films - Silent Running (2 msgs) & Bakshi &
                       Ladyhawke & Trumbull,
               Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban)
Subject: Re: Stephen King
Date: 10 Apr 85 13:21:35 GMT

        For the sake of clarification, the King book we are talking
about is "The DARK Tower", not "The BLACK Tower". As to its
availability, I think it originally had 10,000 copies in print. When
"Pet Sematary" was published, "The Dark Tower" was included in the
list of books by King printed in the front of the book. The demand
for the book was so great that an additional printing of 10,000
copies was made. As far as I know, there will be no further
reprintings, so good luck in finding a copy (I'm not giving up
mine!)
        I don't mean to get anyone's hopes up, but there was never
supposed to be a second printing of the book, but it happened
anyway. Also, there was a reprinting of "Cycle of the Werewolf"
recently by New American Library, while my understanding was that
the edition put out by the Land of Enchantment Press was to be the
only one. Call it greed or public demand, there have been efforts to
make King's less mainstream works available to the public, though I
doubt if mass market editions of "The Dark Tower" are on the
horizon. Try your local library, or a used/rare bookstore.

                                        Rick Urban
                                        AT&T Network Systems
                                        Columbus, Ohio
                                        ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu

P. S. Some people have asked me where I get my information. Well,
let's see:
        Time, Newsweek, USA Today, The New York Times, Publishers
Weekly, Library Journal, The West Coast Review of Books, Variety,
The Hollywood Reporter, Starlog, Fangoria, Cinefantastique,
Starburst, Booklist, Viking Books, New American Library, Putnam
Publishing Group, Douglas Winter's "Stephen King: The Art of
Darkness", Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, Forthcoming Books
in Print, Jerry Boyajian, and any other miscellaneous publication or
person I come across who can provide me with arcane bits of
information, about Stephen King or anything else!

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 06:42:08-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: RESPONSE TO KING NEW IN VOL 10, 117

RESPONSE TO LATEST KING NEWS.

Books:
        1) "Skeleton Crew" has already been recieved by LOCUS to
review, this usually indicates that the book will hit the stands
during that month. The last publication date I have seen was for
MAY.

        2) The un-cut version of "The Stand" has been postponed
according to "CASTLE ROCK (The Stephen King Newsletter)". This
project may be done later, but, maybe not at all.

        4) As for "The Drawing of the Four" (Dark Tower # 2), The
rough draft was complete over a year ago and was going into rewrite.

        "CASTLE ROCK" is a newsletter put out monthly (since Jan.
85) by Stephen King's personal secretary Stephanie. For information
write:
         CASTLE ROCK
         BOX 8183
         BANGOR, ME 04401
                                              KEN

------------------------------

From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller)
Date: 10 Apr 1985 1046-EST (Wednesday)
Subject: Anybody know this one?

        I'm searching for a story that I read several years ago, but
I don't remember its name, or the author's name.  The basic plot (as
well as I can remember) follows:

        Son is about to leave home - asks Dad about Mom who died
shortly after he was born.  Turns out Dad and Mom met when Dad
crash-landed on her previously unexplored planet.  Not only that,
but everyone there had wings, since this was a property of the
atmosphere and not the people Dad grows some too.  Mom and Dad would
have lived there happily ever after if some baddies hadn't kidnapped
them to put on display (or experiment on, or something...).  Mom and
Dad escape baddies but can't find planet again.  They return to
Earth, their wings shrivel up and fall off, Mom dies of a broken
heart, and Dad spends the rest of his life watching his pet hawk fly
around the yard.

        Any Ideas anyone?

        - Herb Miller
          ...decvax!mit-athena!mit-speaker!hmiller

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 22:29:54-EST
From: Thomas  De Bellis <Sy.SLogin@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Silently Not Even Remotely Cost Effective

  I, too, remember seeing Silent Running quite a long time ago.  I
was very young then also.  I remember being awed then, just like any
other `Budding-Hacker-To-Be', by the sheer technology of the film.
But still, even then to young boy (me!), it was flawed by certain
glaring inconsistencies.  I remember feeling very sorry that those
(gee) neat pods got jettisoned and blown up.  Gee, why didn't they
want to use them for something else?

  But now, years later, I know that it doesn't matter that they were
blowing up millions of dollars worth of air-tight, self-sustaining
pods capable of being used for just about anything (like shipping
perishable cargo), you have to have nice big bang boom explosions or
you won't have a commercially successful film.

  Has anyone really considered what air-tight containers cost?  The
idea of just throwing them out is like a trucker throwing out his
flat-bed in order to truck refrigerated goods.  The flat-bed may get
left somewhere or exchanged and the trucker may just drive only the
cab back to save gas, but throw it out?  Come on!

  No, I've never really been able to swallow the economics of that
film.  If, perhaps, fuel was a consideration in that the pods
weighed too much, they could have just thrown all the animals and
what-not out?  While they were at it, they could also have exhausted
the air and not have had to waste any power maintaining the internal
environment.

  Oops!  I forgot about the cruelty to animals folks!  It's ok to
blow animals up quickly in such a way that they don't get seen.
Exhausting them out an air lock where they are visible is a no-no...

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 23:25:45 PST
Subject: Silent Running Science

        Since a good explanation has been offered for a world
without plants, I wish to explain the floating ship problem.
        First of all, the ship was owned by American Airlines which
decided that the cost/benefits (since the world existed without
plants anyways) had deteriated to a point that the ship would have
it's current cargo destroyed and the ship returned to normal
shipping service.
        Why atomize the shells?  Could it be that the company saw no
benefit?  To reduce the possibility of reentry?  That the on-board
thrusters could not lift them to an acceptable position?
        On the matter of the astronauts...Who says they were the
originals?  Dern, may have been playing the most active, but they
would have to be in rotation with ground replacements.
        Why run away to Jupiter, away from the sun?  Because he had
just committed murder!  And regardless of what his outcome was the
fate for earth's eco-system would be nil unless he convinced
everyone the cargo question was settled.
        Who knows, maybe it was a matter of insurance.

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #106
Date: 10 Apr 85 20:16:07 GMT

> I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a
> number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and
> it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too.
> Anyone else have any comment here?

        Yes. The rotoscoping in WIZARDS was very sloppy, much poorer
than LOTR. Also, the borrowed footage from Eisenstein was used to
excess, and detracted from the movie. Finally, the surprise ending
was a total cheat, which denied the only point the film seemed to be
making. Despite which, I still enjoyed some portions of the film.
It's just too bad those portions were not part of a decent movie.

> Does anyone know if Bakshi has been doing anything else lately?
> Outside of FRITZ THE CAT and WIZARDS, I don't think very much of
> his work; in particular I abominate the repulsive LORD OF THE
> RINGS (part 1) with the Amerind Strider and the roly-poly ents. I
> waited with a bunch of friends four hours for the first showing at
> the Ziegfield in New York, and can still feel disappointed and let
> down if I try....

        I seem to recall reading that Bakshi has abandoned film, and
gone over to painting or some other graphic art. As for LOTR, I
liked it quite a bit, except for the hideous music. If you think
Bakshi's LOTR was bad, try watching the Rankin/Bass Tolkien films
(HOBBIT and RETURN OF THE KING) without gagging. Bakshi is a genius
by comparison.
        "Roly-poly ents", indeed; Bakshi made them skinny! Your
memory may be playing tricks on you.

                                           Kenn Barry
                                           NASA-Ames Research Center
                                           Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 00:35:38-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: _LadyHawke_

Beware of Otherwise Unlabled Spoilers (and other invisible bacteria)

I saw a legitimate preview of _LadyHawke_ recently.  It was as good
a fantasy film as I have seen recently, except maybe for _Wizards_.
Most of the film was well-done but left a generic flavor in the back
of the mind: most of the characters are stock characters.  The
exception (one of the main characters) was Philippe the thief, who
acted like a vanilla thief, cowardly and so forth (the ghost of the
Grey Mouser just cut my throat, but I'll deal with him later); but
Philippe got some very good lines.  (He kept talking to God -- who
never answered, directly at least -- saying things like ``I'd like
to think that there's some higher meaning to all of this.  That
would reflect very well on you.''

I think that they lost a lot of good characters by accident.  The
Evil Priest was rather boring: not actively evil, not even very
oily.  The worst one was LadyHawke herself: when she was human, she
usually acted comatose.  (Once or twice she was somewhat sensible)
Admittedly, she has an excuse: she gets turned into a hawk all day,
and if she wants to do anything she has to stay up most of the
night, so I suppose she's stupefied from lack of sleep all the time.
Still, if there were a FEMINIST-SF-LOVERS bboard, I'd flame long and
loud.

The fundamental idea is interesting, even if they do pound it into
you with several hammers.  Two lovers under a curse: she becomes a
hawk in the day, he becomes a wolf at night.  They don't retain
their minds in animal form, which would make it more endurable.
They do keep some personality, though; so the wolf doesn't tear out
his girlfriend's throat.  The movie explores this as well as any
movie can (I'm biased toward books).

It's lots of fun.  Go see it.

``The Immoral'' Bard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 85 09:50 EST
From: William M. York <York@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Trumbull

> From: lsuc!msb@topaz.arpa (Mark Brader)
>>> What's Trumbull doing today?
>>
>> Trumbull has at least two projects going.  The first is a
>> Showscan process film for Expo 85 which is in Montreal, I
>> believe.  The film is part of an amusement park ride: you are
>> part of a commercial space shuttle flight in the near future.
>
>Nobody else has said anything, so I suppose I'd better.  Expo 85
>isn't in Montreal; it's in Tsukuba, in Japan not too far from
>Tokyo.  Expo 86, however, will be in Vancouver (which is at least
>in the same country as Montreal).
>
>The theme of Expo 85 is science and technology for man at home; the
>theme of Expo 86 will be transportation.  Therefore it seems more
>likely that the Trumbull film talked about will be shown in
>Vancouver...especially since it is described as "in progress" and
>Expo 85 has already opened.

The Showscan movie in question IS being shown at Tsukuba Expo '85,
in the Toshiba corporate pavillion.  I got a chance to see it while
we were setting up our exhibit in the US pavillion.  The Showscan
process is as impressive as ever.  The film has more plot (a
Japanese boy visiting an American scientist in a research lab and
touring the facility with the scientist's robot) and less action
than the original Showscan "demo" film.  It seemed like they were
worried about overstressing the audience.  The action sequences have
more visual surprises (e.g. in the sequence taken from the front
bumper of a car travelling at high speed down narrow roads, other
cars keep popping out of intersections and there are many near
misses), but each sequence is interrupted frequently by shots of the
boy and robot.  This keeps the sequences down to about 5 seconds
each and the visceral reaction from the VERY realistic visual
effects is not allowed to build.  Still a pretty good show...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 01:35:30 est
From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
Cc: solar!alan@topaz
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #118: Computers in SF: names

I know the computer in Alien was called "Mother". We've got one here
at MIT named after it; people never understand.

And the Wargames computer was WOPR, wasn't it? I should know
Asimov's computer's name, but it's been a long time. Maybe it was
Multivac? I don't remember computers in "I Dream of Jeannie" or
Rollerball at all, though.
                                                - John

------------------------------

From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz.arpa (bayes)
Subject: Re: computer SF?
Date: 8 Apr 85 16:10:00 GMT

WRT to favorite computer protagonists: I still think Mike
(MYCROFTXXX) in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of the better,
more sympathetic "characters" you'll find. As for the Valentina
crap, you can have it.

hpfcla!bayes

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 12:05:47-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: "Computer-SF"

The best novel I have read of "computer-SF" is Neuromancer, which is
up for a Nebula this year. True Names was OK, but was disappointing,
and Valentina just had too many inaccuracies, not to mention
terrible characterization.

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #118: Computers in SF: names
Date: 10 Apr 85 18:31:47 GMT

> I know the computer in Alien was called "Mother". We've got one
> here at MIT named after it; people never understand.
>
> And the Wargames computer was WOPR, wasn't it? I should know
> Asimov's computer's name, but it's been a long time. Maybe it was
> Multivac? I don't remember computers in "I Dream of Jeannie" or
> Rollerball at all, though.
                                                - John

Asimov's computer was Multivac.  If I remember correctly, the
computer in Rollerball was 'Zero.'  (I distinctly remember the
'head' computer scientist [computer priest?] losing it and kicking
the thing when it wouldn't do what he wanted)

Just a 'bit' of trivia...

Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin
{seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury
... mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Apr 85 0951-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #122
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:

             Books - Jonathan Carroll & King (2 msgs) &
                     Pohl (2 msgs) & Unknown Worlds & NYPD: 2025,
             Films - Movies to be Released & The Worst SF Movie &
                     Bakshi (2 msgs),
             Television - BBC & A Request for Research Material,
             Miscellaneous - Author Support for SDI (2 msgs) & 
                     Computerized Comics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: Jonathan Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 85 19:23:57 GMT

Here's a recommendation for Jonathan Carroll's novels.  I believe
he's only published two:
                The Land of Laughs
        &       The Voice of Our Shadow

Both of these books have been published by Ace Fantasy, so I guess
this is an appropriate newsgroup.

The narrator of Land of Laughs is a teacher at a private school who
also is the son of a very famous movie actor, and he has a passion
for the books by a children's author, Marshall France.  He and his
similarly-interested lover set out to the town of this deceased
author to gather material for a biography.  This book is a
page-turner for a variety of reasons: the impatient, running and out
of breath manner of the narrator, with occasional foreshadowing; the
mystery of finding out about the author and vaguely suspicious
things happening in the town; the marvelous way Carroll has with
describing the tugs and pulls, the unevenness, in romantic
relationships.  Land of Laughs was published hardcover by Viking,
and paperback by Ace Fantasy in 1983 (which is strange, since the
Viking makes no mention of a fantasy restriction); bookstores may
still carry the Ace.

The Voice of Our Shadow has again some amount of obsession of the
living for the dead, except this time it's a closer relationship -
the living have some guilty feelings about having caused the death.
The narrator is a writer who's comfortably well off due to royalties
from a play based on a short story he wrote about his brother who
died in an accident as a teenager.  His brother was a bizarre bully
who tormented the younger boy who wanted to be loved by the big
brother.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 08:44:39-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Review of 'The Long Walk' by BACHMAN/KING

     In the America of the future the biggest sporting event of each
year is The Long Walk. Each year 100 of America's finest young men
begin a marathon race. The object of the race is to walk at a pace
of at least 4 miles per hour, if a walker's pace drops below 4 mph
he is given a warning. After a warning a walker has 30 seconds
before a second warning is given, so that by speeding back up to 4+
mph he will avoid another warning. When a walker goes for an hour at
the normal pace 1 warning will be removed. When a walker who has 3
warnings still current drops below 4 mph he is out of the race, the
soldiers who monitor the race use bullets to put the walker out of
the race. The soldiers will also shoot any walker that tries to run
away. The object of the race is to be the last walker, the survivor
gets lots of money and just about anything else he could ask for.
     If this sounds like the plot for 'The Running Man', it's
because the plots have a lot of common ideas. While 'The Running
Man' was pulled off nicely by King, I think that 'The Long Walk'
falls short. This book gets real slow in the middle, sort of a
marathon read. Maybe if there were soldiers who gave you a warning
if you dropped below 4 minutes per page. The characters were
developed well, but, I couldn't find myself caring about any of
them. I didn't really hate the book, but, I would only recommend it
to hard core Stephen King fans.  I rate this book a 5 (out of ten).
                                    KEN COBB

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 10:42:36-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Update on 'The Dark Tower' # 2

     Since I am looking forward to "The Drawing of the Four" I
decided to phone Donald Grant (the publisher for the Dark Tower
series) to get an idea of the actual publishing date for the 2nd
"Dark Tower" book. Mr. Grant told me that King was shooting for a
1985 publication, but, he is extremely busy with the movie work he
is doing and it may be pushed back to the first part of 1986.  Mr.
Grant said that Stephen was directing a movie for Dino de Laurentis,
should be interesting.
                                    KEN COBB

------------------------------

From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Subject: Heechee Rendevous
Date: 10 Apr 85 13:12:12 GMT

                 ******SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!******

 I recently finished reading this book (heechee rendevous) and I
found what seems to be a couple of inconsistancies. First when Essie
first compiled the new datafan of Albert she distinctly said
something to the effect that perhaps she should have left out the
gourmet cooking software and included Sigfried Von Shrink. Then
later when Albert goes bonkers Robin calls up Sigfried to help
diagnose Albert. Where was Sigfried hiding in that datafan?
 Secondly when Albert is bragging about how he found the slush
dwellers ship and consequently the Hechee he computed the number of
seconds since the original sighting and then using the speed of
light he computed where the ship should be. How did he know what
direction to look in?
                                        *db*
dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom

------------------------------

From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Subject: Books by Fredrick Pohl
Date: 10 Apr 85 13:15:17 GMT

 Recently I've read the Heechee trilogy and enjoyed it immensly. I
just finished JEM and was very entertained. Does anybody out there
have a complete or semi-complete list of Pohl's works? Our local
book stores up here in the woods are not exactly well stocked but if
I have the title I can order it. Thanks.
                                                *db*
dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom
PS: I highly recommend JEM as the ending will get ya!

------------------------------

From: kallis@pen.DEC
Subject: Chance to bring back _Unknown_Worlds_
Date: 10 Apr 85 19:04:16 GMT

The latest (June) issue of _Analog_ contains a letter of mine that,
among other things, laments the lack of availability of the old
_Unknown_Worlds_, which is no longer being published.  The editor,
Stan Schmidt, is very interested in bringing it back as a companion
to _Analog_, but he has to convince the publisher it's a viable
idea.  He appended to the bottom of my letter the suggestion that if
people were interested, to indicate by writing in.

So, if you're interested, drop him a line.  And pass it on.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 13:14:42-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: WARNING

Do NOT read NYPD: 2025 (or some such title), just out from Crossfire
Books. I should have noticed the publisher before I bought it.  This
book is arguably the worst SF novel ever written (not just ever
published, ever WRITTEN). I shall not say more or I may lose my
lunch.

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: ur-cvsvax!gary@topaz.arpa (Gary Sclar)
Subject: Movies coming out
Date: 11 Apr 85 20:47:00 GMT

The following is a listing of sci-fi and other movies coming out
this summer and later; most of this information is culled from the
May issue of Starlog.

1)      Mad Max III- to be released in August- stars Tina Turner and
Mel Gibson- new villan is called 'The Masterblaster'- he looks nasty

2)      The Clan of the Cave Bear; starring Darryl Hannah- due out
August 16; may be disappointing- its an adaptation by John Sayles;
his comments in the same issue of Starlog lead one to believe that
he was not overly enthusiastic about the story.

3)      Star Trek IV starts filming in the fall; will star all of
the regulars- Nimoy to direct

4)      Jewel of the Nile- sequel to Romancing the Stone; Christmas
of 85

5)      Pumping Iron II- The Women; April 29 debut in NYC- Bev
Francis to guest-flex

6)      Alien II to begin shooting soon

7)      Arnold Schwarzenegger will be in 'Outpost' now shooting

8)      Sci fi films to be released this summer; Wierd Science; Back
to the Future; Return to OZ (June 21); The Black Cauldron (July 26);
Cocoon- about aliens and old people; The Bride of Frankenstein
(Sting? as the mad young doctor?);My Science Project;Red Sonja
(Sandahl 'She got legs' Bergman); Lifeforce- Colin Wilson's Space
Vampires;Goonies

------------------------------

From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen)
Date: 11 Apr 1985 2226-EST (Thursday)
Subject: THE worst SF movie of all time

No, I'm afraid it's not settled.  Even though I've never seen
"Invasion of the Star Creatures", I can honestly say that the two
movies that I am about to name are THE worst of all time.

First, for all you monster-movie watchers out there, have any of you
seen "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" (circa 1976)?  Have you any
idea of how outrageously BAD that movie is?  It uses old cliches,
has a no-name cast (well, what did you expect from low-budget
flicks?), and, in general, the man who wrote it must either be: 1)
in a mental asylum, 2) hiding out in the Hindu Kush, or 3) hanged
(this is the preferable option).  By the way, this movie also had a
musical score.  I can still hear it now: "Munch, munch, munch,
munch, ...".

Second, for the worst disappointment of all time, one must turn to
the mangled epic of the ages, "DUNE".  The first time I went to see
the movie, I had just read the book (Yes, I know, I know, but I
wasn't exposed to this much SF before college), and I came away
knowing it wasn't what I expected.  The second time I went to see
it, I laughed all the way through.  Characters thinking out loud,
the irrepressible logic of the young Paul Atreides ("There must be a
connection between the worm and the spice."), and the mangling of
the book's plot in places (leaving out important parts and stressing
unimportant ones) left me unimpressed with the merits of the film.
This film had to be a disappointment for all who went to see it.

Both "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" and "DUNE" became stupid in a
sense because the first was totally inane (and beyond), and the
second was just so hideous...well, I don't even dare say what my
friends thought of it.  I also had to laugh at myself for watching
both through to the end.

                        Scott Kitchen
                        skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 11-Apr-85 23:00 PST
From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Video Tape of WIZARDS(?)
Cc: ames!barry@topaz.arpa

Has anyone seen such a tape...does it exist?  Anyone seen it in the
Palo Alto area?  Please send a response directly to me and avoid
cluttering uninterested folks.  Thanks, --Bi//

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 85 23:19:31 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Bakshi and "Wizards"

>from Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a
>number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and
>it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too. Anyone
>else have any comment here?

I was vastly unimpressed with "Wizards".  The film was made sort of
as a demo reel for "Lord of the Rings", and it's incomplete nature
shows at every turn.  Bakshi doesn't bother animating much of it,
the plot is shortchanged at the end, he uses rotoscoping in a lazy
and obvious manner, and he has the gall to tint battle scenes from
Eisenstein's "Alexander Nevsky" without acknowledging his source.
For me, "Wizards" was little more than a slightly interesting
failure, and I'm very surprised anyone liked it as much as you do.
This certainly isn't Bakshi's finest moment, in my opinion, and,
since Bakshi isn't even a first-rate director/animator, that makes
it fairly feeble.  Bakshi's best work was "Fritz the Cat" and the
controversial "Heavy Traffic" and "Coonskin".  The animation was
better and Bakshi showed real imagination, something he hasn't done
since.

>Does anyone know if Bakshi has been doing anything else lately?

Bakshi's last film was "Fire and Ice", a limited animation version
of a world based on Frank Frazetta's artwork.  Other than cheap
animation, it wasn't too bad.  This film came out about two years
ago, and I haven't heard about anything from Bakshi since.  Of
course, even a half-decent animated film takes several years to
make, so he may have something in the works.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken)
Subject: APPALLING!
Date: 11 Apr 85 13:12:17 GMT

Now showing on BBC-1 Saturdays at 5:20, replacing Doctor Who, is
(gag) Wonder Woman!

Interesting facts: Micheal Grade is British born, however spent most
of his working life working with American television, and apparently
wants to Americanize the BBC.  (ie flamingly expensive mini-series,
etc.)  His first act as BBC comtroller was to spend a fortune on
buying Caine and Abel, a mini-series that he produced!  A clear
conflict of interest!  He is also the person who wants to bring
advertising to the BBC.  The sooner he is out of there, the better,
and not just for Doctor Who's sake!

James C. Armstrong, Jnr.  ihnp4!abnji!nyssa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 23:04:57-EST
From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #120

I'm working on a term paper on television science fiction and I have
run into a crunch for research material.  I am in desperate need for
information on the following television series:

        1. Futurecop (ABC)
        2. The Return of Captain Nemo (or some such title)
        3. Brave New World (Miniseries for NBC, broadcast c.1980)

Any help would be appreciated, especially cast lists,
production/creation info, and other credits where appropriate.
Please don't include episode names.
                                                James Kiso

------------------------------

From: terak!doug@topaz.arpa (Doug Pardee)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI
Date: 9 Apr 85 15:43:02 GMT

> The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the
> initiative and Robert Heinlein for it.

Great.  Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot
in an airplane.

Okay, okay, in Asimov's case "refuse" might be a bit strong... how
about "goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid"?

Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug

------------------------------

From: terak!doug@topaz.arpa (Doug Pardee)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI
Date: 9 Apr 85 15:43:02 GMT

> The article
> said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the initiative and
> Robert Heinlein for it.

Great.  Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot
in an airplane.

Okay, okay, in Asimov's case "refuse" might be a bit strong... how
about "goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid"?
--
Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug

------------------------------

Subject: Computerized Comic
Date: 10 Apr 85 11:18:43 PST (Wed)
From: Dan Eilers (ICSC) <eilers@uci-icsc>

        I've got in front of me a copy of the 'First Computerized
Comic': SHATTER.  Artist Micheal Saenz and writer Peter Gillis
turned to an MacApple to generate a stunning SF comic book.  The
artwork is realistic and the story is lifted from Bladerunner.
First edition comic books are always appreciating in value and hard
to find.  Check your local Comic Book store or write First Comics
Publishing, 1014 Davis St., Evanston IL 60201.  As an SF comic book
fan, I feel this is an area that this BB needs to give more
attention.

See you at the beach.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 15 Apr 85 1129-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Apr 85 1129-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #123
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:

        Books - Cook (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Hogan (2 msgs) &
                Pohl (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Unknown Worlds &
                Packaging of Books,
        Films - Trumbull & Rollerball & Buckaroo Banzai,
        Miscellaneous - Bookstore Addresses Wanted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 13:23:41-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>

I've liked much of his writing too, especially the fantasy novels. I
must say, though, that his SF has been rather poor. I didn't think
much of his Starfisher trilogy, and his latest SF novel, a
time-travel detective novel, is not very well thought out.

One strange thing, though. Much of Cook's writing is very good, but
he shows an unseemly attraction to the word "provenance". This
rather unused word is encountered several times per Cook novel,
enough to make it annoying, even though the usage is perfectly
correct; now every time he uses the word I find my fascination with
his story broken by the observation of this phenomenon.

So far, I have liked Cook's story of the Black Company best of his
work.  It is refreshing to read a fantasy novel where the GOOD
protagonists don't inevitably wipe out their EVIL opponents. Cook
allows for the humanity of his villains, and his "heroes" do some
pretty reprehensible (though understandable) things while trying to
stay alive.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 85 14:45:51 EST
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBNCCI.ARPA>
Subject: The Black Company vs. The White Company

This is in response to a review of the third book in the "Black
Company" series, in SFL V10 #119.  I haven't read any of the "Black
Company" books, and indeed wasn't aware of them until I read this
review, but the title suggests a reference to Arthur Conan Doyle's
"The White Company", a historical novel about a company of
mercenaries, set around the time of the Crusades.  If you enjoy the
Black Company books, it would probably be worth reading the Doyle to
see if there is more than just a coincidence of titles.  "The White
Company", although not up to the quality of the Holmes works, is
quite readable Doyle.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 00:08:16-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Number of the Beast (yes, one more flame)

The Number of the Beast was one of the biggest disappointments I
have ever experienced.  As one of the few people who will admit to
liking Time Enough for Love, and having been assured by Spider
Robinson in his review in Analog than anyone who liked TEfL would
love TNotB, I ran right out and got it.  I managed to get through it
once.  I recently donated it to a library, realizing I was never,
ever going to read it again.

Heinlein committed two unforgiveable sins in this book.  First, he
set up a plot (which I actually enjoyed) early in the book and then
just let it peter out without a proper resolution.  Second, and
worse, the entire ending is an in-joke to please himself.  I am
told, reliably, that the characters, names, etc. in the last chapter
are hacks on Midwest sf fans the Heinleins know.  I spent *days*
trying to figure that chapter out, wondering if I was just stupid or
something.

This is not even to mention the everlasting arguments and absolutely
ludicrous female characters (I don't know anyone who's ever heard a
nipple go "spang!").
                                Janice

------------------------------

From: bu-cs!todd@topaz.arpa (Todd Cooper)
Subject: Re: The Code of the Lifemaker  --  spoiler
Date: 14 Apr 85 06:16:50 GMT

Has anyone else really enjoyed this book?  I would like to hear from
all the James P. Hogan fans... What is his address (USnail or
e-mail) I would LOVE to write to him.  He was listed in Who's-who of
American author's a while back, but that gives his east coast
address.  Anyone have the west coast address?

Todd Cooper
(617) 424-9018
UUCP:   ...!harvard!bu-cs!todd
ARPA:   todd%bu-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
USNail: 13 Marlborough St. #1, Boston, MA 02116

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 1985 15:03-PST
From: king@Kestrel.ARPA
Subject: The Code of the Lifemaker  --  spoiler

I was not really impressed with The Code of the Lifemaker.  I mean,
for god's sake, they even had HORSES!  The "people" ate, slept,
looked, and to a large extent acted just like us.  The only
difference, the only thing that made for any interest, was the fact
that a faction of earthlings wanted to take away the robots' rights
(as if stealing their "life forms" was likely to be useful, given
that they evolved for a temperature of -150 C -- what form of life
would you steal from Earth if you lived on a metallic-life-form
planet with a temperature of 350 C?)

A better writing with the same premise is a short story by Anderson
entitled Epilog.

Does anyone out there have the name of a third?

                                                Dick

------------------------------

Date: Sat 13 Apr 85 16:29:34-EST
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Pohl

This isn't an exhaustive list, just my favorites:

Heechee Trilogy (Gateway, Blue Event Horizon, Heechee Rendevous)
                        Already been described on SFL.

The Cool War            About a Unitarian Universalist minister who
                        gets drafted into "The Team", a successor
                        organization to the CIA.  A good read even if
                        you don't like politics in your SF, and a must
                        if you do.

A Plauge of Pythons (reprinted as Demons of the Skull)
                        The world has fallen apart because people are
                        being "possessed", ie their bodies are doing
                        things the owners don't want them to.  This is
                        SF, not fantasy, but you spend most of the
                        book trying to figure out what the bleep is
                        going on.

Man Plus                A cyborg's eye view of the first attempt to
                        colonize Mars, with a neat twist at the end.


All of the above highly recommended, in particular The Cool War.
Pretty much anything Pohl writes is at least readable, so you won't
lose too badly if you just buy whatever you find.

                                --Rob <sra@mit-xx.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 15 Apr 1985 06:27:21-PST
From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andy V)
Subject: Heechee Rendevous Question

>  I recently finished reading this book (heechee rendevous) and I
> found what seems to be a couple of inconsistancies. ...
>  Secondly when Albert is bragging about how he found the slush
> dwellers ship and consequently the Hechee he computed the number
> of seconds since the original sighting and then using the speed of
> light he computed where the ship should be. How did he know what
> direction to look in?
>                                         *db*
> dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom

Albert used a simple 'time machine' to get his movie.  If you want
to see what happened here 30 seconds ago, move away (in ANY
direction) 30 light-seconds, then use a good telescope.  You will
see what happens because the light you are receiving left the scene
30 seconds ago.

Needless to say, this 'time machine' needs faster-than-light travel
to work.

Andy V

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 85 00:58:34 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: New publication info for Gene Wolfe's FREE LIVE FREE

I'm not particularly up-to-date on the vagaries of the sf publishing
business, but I just received some publishing information that may
be of interest to fans of Gene Wolfe.  Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE,
which was written in 1983, was not published as expected in 1984
because of the demise of Pocket Books' Timescape sf line.  Instead
Mark Ziesing published a special limited edition of the book in late
1984.  I talked to Mark Ziesing on the phone this week and asked him
about the prospects for a trade edition of the novel.  Ziesing said
that he had some information that he wasn't completely certain of;
the gist of it was that the book would appear as a Tor or Baen trade
hardcover sometime in late 1985.  (This may have something to do
with the fact that David Hartwell, Wolfe's editor at Timescape, is
now an 'acquisitions editor' for Tor, among his other occupations,
according to Norman Spinrad's column in LOCUS #289.) I have a copy
of Ziesing's beautiful (and expensive) edition, but this new edition
would mean that more than 750 people would get to enjoy this warm,
funny, STRANGE book...

Wishing I knew when THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN will come out,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: Re: Chance to bring back _Unknown_Worlds
Date: 12 Apr 85 16:07:29 GMT

Steve Kallis
> The latest (June) issue of _Analog_ contains a letter of mine
> that, among other things, laments the lack of availability of the
> old _Unknown_Worlds_, which is no longer being published.  The
> editor, Stan Schmidt, is very interested in bringing it back as a
> companion to _Analog_, but he has to convince the publisher it's a
> viable idea.  He appended to the bottom of my letter the
> suggestion that if people were interested, to indicate by writing
> in.

Well, *I* haven't had any use for _Analog_ for several years (-:no
fireplace:-), and I've never seen a copy of _Unknown_Worlds.  What
sorts of things were published in _Unknown_Worlds_?  Both general
descriptions or a list of some specific stories would be help in
convincing those of us who are ignorant-but-might-be-interested to
write in.  (So far, though, I've not been much pleased with anything
I've subscribed to by that publisher, neither _Analog_, which the
publisher refused to cancel my subscription before it ended, nor the
short-lived _Science_Fiction_Digest_.)

Thanks in advance,
L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot)
Subject: packaging
Date: 12 Apr 85 21:37:53 GMT

> DON'T BLAME THE AUTHOR FOR THE PACKAGING OF HIS BOOK!!!

Well, yes, few authors can even complain (and get results) about a
proposed cover--this is true not just for science fiction authors.
(or fiction authors)

However, some biggies appear to be able to influence things some.
I've heard Harlan Ellison at public lectures flame about getting
them to leave off those ads and forms you often get at the end of a
book.  He claims to have been successful.  Let's see...Patricia
Wrede's latest (_The_Harp_of_...) doesn't have any ads, but both
Steven Brust's _To_Reign_In_Hell_ and Pamela Dean's
_The_Secret_Country_ do, and all of these came out from Ace this
spring.  So, SZKB, can you comment on these ads?  I can imagine that
Ace wouldn't give Pamela Dean much say so, since this was her first
book, but you've got a couple.  Does anybody other than Ellison
gripe about the ads at the end?

L S Chabot
UUCP:   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:   ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 12 Apr 1985 07:08:13-PST
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Principal
From: Graphic Designer, DTN 264-5090)
Subject: Silent Running (Who did What)

> Battlestar Galatcica and Buck Rogers were both filmed and produced
> at Universal Studios. (In fact if you ever visit there you will
> still see sets used in both shows.) Douglas Trumbul, if memory
> serves correctly did the specical effects on all three movies,
> (Battlestar G, Buck Rogers, Silent Running).  Universal probably
> got the footage from SR from him to use in Battlestar. I'm
> guessing at this.

Douglas Trumbull directed Silent Running (and Brainstorm).  He is
also known for his effects work on Close Encounters of the Third
Kind, Star Trek the Motion Picture (cleaning up after Robert Abel)
with John Dykstra, and Blade Runner.  John Dykstra did the original
effects for Battlestar Galactica.  Then Universal set up its
Hartland effects facility to continue the work and do the effects
for Buck Rogers (and Airport '79: the Concorde).  I believe that SR
was a Universal film.  Universal is notorious for re-using footage
in other films.  That's probably what happened here.

   Randy Dearborn
   DEC
   Merrimack, NH

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 85 11:23 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: computers in SF - Rollerball

> computer in Rollerball was 'Zero.'  (I distinctly remember the
> 'head' computer scientist [computer priest?] losing it and kicking
> the thing when it wouldn't do what he wanted)

Oh, one of my favorite actors, Sir Ralph Richardson, played the
computer priest.  And he was just as eccentric as his computer (a
fluid dynamics based computer, as I recall).

You remember him, he was also the wonderful wizard in DragonSlayer
(which I enjoyed a lot). He's one of the few great actors (I'm
talking really great- I put him somewhere near Lawrence Olivier and
John Gielgud) to do much fantasy or science fiction work.  (No, I
don't consider Shakespeare to be fantasy, except Midsummer Nights
Dream, and maybe The Tempest, and maybe ...).

Brett Slocum
(ARPA : Slocum\@HI-MULTICS)
(UUCP : ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)













































------------------------------

From: wjh12!gts@topaz.arpa (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack
Date: 13 Apr 85 06:09:04 GMT

Is there such a thing as a Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack?  I really
enjoyed some of the music in that movie, especially the end title
theme, and I'd love to get a copy.

Please mail to me, don't post, if you have information.
Thanks!

Name:           G. T. Samson
Quote:          "No matter where you go...there you are."
                -- B. Banzai
ARPA:           gts@wjh12 [preferred] OR samson%h-sc4@harvard
USMail:         Lowell H-41, Harvard U., Cambridge, MA 02138

------------------------------

Date: Sun 14 Apr 85 20:22:18-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Bookstore addresses wanted

I am looking for the complete mailing addresses of the following
SF/fantasy booksellers; can some of you out there provide me with
those addresses?  (PLEASE send replies to me at ZELLICH@SRI-NIC;
DON'T reply to the list...

If people are really interested in having such a list, let me know
and when I get these addresses I'll send you the full list (I have
another 18 on my list, plus a couple of local ones here in St. Louis
that I haven't bothered to put on the list yet.)

Thanks,
Rich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC>

Austin Books                      Odyssey Bookshop
xxx?                              xxx?
Austin, TX  xxxxx?                xxxx?, KY  xxxxx?

Dangerous Visions                 The Other Change of Hobbit
xxx?                              xxx?
xxxx?, CA  xxxxx?                 xxxx?, CA  xxxxx?

Fantastic Worlds Bookstore #1     Science Fantasy Bookstore
xxx?                              xxx?
Fort Worth, TX  xxxxx?            xxxx?, MA  xxxxx?

Fantastic Worlds Bookstore #2     Science Fiction & Mystery Bookshop
581 W. Campbell Rd #119           xxx?
Richardson, TX  xxxxx?            Atlanta, GA  xxxxx?

Forbidden Planet                  Uncle Hugo's Bookstore
xxx?                              xxx?
New York, NY  xxxxx?              Minneapolis, MN  xxxxx?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Apr 85 0907-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #124
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:

       Books - NYPD: 2025,
       Films - Invasion of the Star Creatures & Mad Max III &
               Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Buckaroo Banzai &
               Sir Ralph Richardson,
       Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (6 msgs) & 
               Space Defense Initiative (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 12 Apr 85 22:14:09-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #122

> Do NOT read NYPD: 2025 (or some such title), just out from
> Crossfire Books. I should have noticed the publisher before I
> bought it.  This book is arguably the worst SF novel ever written
> (not just ever published, ever WRITTEN). I shall not say more or I
> may lose my lunch.

With an intro like that, you had better tell us more or some
half-crazed hackist will find a way to send a letterbomb over
netmail...
                     -- Bard

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 1985 17:29:00-EST
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: "Invasion of the Star Creatures"



> From: Provan@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> It's settled now: I just saw *THE* worst SF movie of all time.
> It's a 1963 movie called "Invasion of the Star Creatures."  It was
> every bit as bad as "Plan 9 from Outer Space" except it was
> *trying* to be funny.  It ends up being sorta meta-stupid: trying
> to be stupid and being stupid about it.  It was sorta funny in a
> Zen way.  Nothing was really funny, but I had to laugh at myself
> for watching it through to the end.

Gee, I always kind of LIKED this movie; though, admittedly, it's
been years since I've seen it.  This IS the one that stars the two
schlepps who are apparently trying to be a poor man's Abbott &
Costello, right?  And is directed by "R. I. Diculous?"  If so, I
liked it.  Not as SF (God forbid!), but as spoof set within an SF
framework.  Though I pretty much have to agree with you, Provan,
about its stupidity; in fact, the more I think about it, the more it
strikes me that "meta-stupid" is the perfect adjective for this
movie.  But I guess I found its silliness sufficiently funny to
satisfy me.

My favorite scene occurs when our heroes are outside the cave
occupied by the aliens and are surprised by a band of hostile
Indians (of the native American variety).  I thought this a pretty
silly twist, since the movie is apparently set in the present of
1963.  The Indians tie up the guys, aiming to burn them at the
stake, if memory serves, but just as time is about to run out for
our heroes, the leader of the Indians spies a Captain Midnight
Secret Decoder Ring on the finger of one of our heroes.  He puts a
stop to the impending torture; it turns out that he, too, has a
Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring, so he and our hero are
blood-brothers!

Hmmm....  I'm afraid my transliteration of that scene has kind of
lost something.  But I found it tremendously silly.  Almost...
Pythonesque!
                                 Regards,
                                     Jeff Rogers
                                     jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen)
Date: 14 Apr 1985 1618-EST (Sunday)
Subject: Mad Max III

Could someone out there give me some help?  I enjoyed both "Mad Max"
and "The Road Warrior".  Now, there's going to be a third movie.
Would someone please tell me the correct title?  I've heard that
it's going to be "Mad Max III" and also "Road Warrior II".  What's
the deal?
                                        Scott Kitchen

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 00:09:45-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes

I can't believe this cropped up on a worst sf movie list again.  It
was a JOKE, people -- a hack on the typical monster movie.  Come on,
already.  It wasn't the funniest movie ever made, but it did have
its moments.
                                Janice

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 23:22:07-EST
From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #123

About the Buckaroo Bonzai soundtrack:

I don't know if such a soundtrack exists, but you can find the final
theme to the film on Dave Grusin's Night Lines album.  It is called
Kitchen Dance.
                                                James Kiso

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 85 23:33:49 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Ralph Richardson's fantasy career

Richardson, truly one of the century's great actors, actually wound
up doing rather a lot of fantasy and science fiction films over the
years.  Here's a list

        "Things to Come"  1936
        "The Man Who Could Work Miracles" 1936
        "The Bed Sitting Room" 1969 (in the title role...)
        "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" 1972
        "O Lucky Man!" 1973
        "Rollerball" 1978
        "Time Bandits" 1983
        "Dragonslayer" 1983

Also a voice in "Watership Down", two horror pictures ("The Ghoul"
in 1933 and "Tales from the Crypt" in 1972), and I know some people
who consider "Breaking the Sound Barrier" to be science fiction.
Richardson had a mischievous, pixielike quality behind a facade of
reserve which made him much more appropriate for these sorts of
roles than his peers, Gielgud and Olivier.  (Imagine what British
theater was like when all three of them were young and rattling off
one Shakespeare play after another.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 16:33:49-EST
From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #118

Just for what it's worth, the name of the computer in Alien was
"Mother," though this was a nice, English pronunciation of a system
name which was something like MuThr.  The computer in Rollerball was
called Zero and used bubble memory (real bubbles-like in water).  As
for Wargames, who can forget the incredible WOPR (who cares what it
stands for, it sounds just marvelous).

To add a few more computers to your list:

6.  All of the computers in the Twilight Zone episodes (I can
    remember at least two).
7.  The computers which comprised Merlin in H.B. Piper's novels.
8.  The robot/computer systems in Space:1999 (They're an interesting
    lot, if not very realistic.)
                                        James Kiso

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong [DCS])
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #118: Computers in SF: names
Date: 11 Apr 85 05:10:21 GMT

romkey@mit-borax writes:
>I should know Asimov's computer's name, but it's been a long time.
>Maybe it was Multivac?
>                                               - John

actually, there were several computers in "The Last Question".  they
all had 'ac' on the end (for analogue computer).  multivac was one,
COSMIC AC was another.  there are at least 3 more.

Herb Chong...

I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....

UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu

------------------------------

From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller)
Date: 11 Apr 1985 1454-EST (Thursday)
Subject: favorite computer SF

My votes for best SF with a computer go to:

        1.   Heinlein's novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
        2.   Asimov's short story "The Last Question"

also, the short story, "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" (well,
it's sort of a computer story...)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 85  2248 PST
From: Dave Fuchs <DRF@SU-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Computers in SF: names

While we're on the subject, what's the name of the robot that almost
takes over George Jetson's job?  (I've been waiting YEARS to ask
that one!)
        -david

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 1985 08:30:49-EST
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: computer names

I seem to remember that the computer in Wargames also liked to be
called Jerimy or something like that.
                              Jim Rachiele

------------------------------

Date: Fri 12 Apr 85 21:17:50-MST
From: Peter Badovinatz <BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: Computers in SF and Classic SF

Guess I should have sent this in earlier, but, busy etc.

To add to the list of stories with a computer as a central
character, add the story "Moxon's Master" by Ambrose Bierce.  I have
it in a collection entitled _WONDERMAKERS:__An_Anthology_of_Classic_
Science_Fiction_, edited by Robert Hoskins.

"Moxon's Master" is a definite classic.  It was written around 1890
and features an intelligent robot.  While it may not be the earliest
attempt at describing an automaton, it does a credible job of
describing robotics and artificial intelligence.  Ambrose Bierce was
born in 1842 and apparently died in 1914 in Mexico.

_Wondermakers_ was published in 1972 by Fawcett Publications, Inc.
The stories are very dated, but can still be excellent reading.

If you can read a story and place yourself into the author's world
while doing so, they are interesting.  The age of many of these
stories makes them almost trivial in scope, but a story about
bacteriological warfare written in 1910 (Jack London's "The
Unparalleled Invasion") does inspire some awe.

_Wondermakers_ contains the following stories:
Edgar Allen Poe -- "The Balloon Hoax" -- ~1850
Edwin A. Abbott -- excerpts from "Flatland" -- late 19th century
Ambrose Bierce -- "Moxon's Master" -- ~1890
H.G. Wells -- "The Land Ironclads" -- ~1900
Rudyard Kipling -- "With the Night Mail" -- ~1905
E.M. Forster -- "The Machine Stops" -- ~1905 (not published until
  1928) (Forster wrote "A Passage to India" in 1924.  Basis of
  recent movie of same name.)
Jack London -- "The Unparalleled Invasion" -- 1910
A. Conan Doyle -- "The Disintegration Machine" -- 1928
Stephen Vincent Benet -- "Metropolitan Nightmare" -- 1927
                         "Nightmare Number Three" -- 1935
Theodore Sturgeon -- "Killdozer!" -- 1944
James Blish -- "Surface Tension" -- 1952

Peter R Badovinatz                ARPA:  BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20
Univ of Utah Comp Sci Dept        UUCP:  ...!utah-cs!badovin

------------------------------

From: randvax!rohn@topaz.arpa (Laurinda Rohn)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI
Date: 11 Apr 85 00:43:16 GMT

> from Bill Baker
>       I was reading somewheres that President Reagan's Strategic
> Defense Initiative, .i.e. "Star Wars", had split a great many
> interest groups, including science fiction writers.  The article
> said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the initiative and
> Robert Heinlein for it.  I knew that Heinlein was still writing,
> but I didn't know that he was still politically active as he was
> in the 50's and 60's.
>       Has anyone seen an article with such statements attributed
> to him?  If so, I would certainly like a pointer to it.  I am not
> surprised that he would take such a stand, but he has been
> misquoted in the past and I would like to see just what it was
> that he said.

I don't know of any particular quotes offhand from Mr. Heinlein, but
I am sure he has made some to that effect.  He is active in the High
Frontier PAC, which is the pro-SDI political action committee.

                                        Lauri
                                        rohn@rand-unix.ARPA
                                        ..decvax!randvax!rohn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 85 17:53:34 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: the Space Defense Initiative

Here we have a science-fictional concept which is quickly becoming
reality.  What do you all think of the Space Defense Initiative
('Star Wars') ??  I should expect quite a variety of opinions; if
the SF writers are lining up on both sides, can the readers be far
behind?

I suppose I should state my own position: while the SDI sounds like
an awfully elegant solution to the arms race, it has the feel of the
science in all too many SF stories; it seems really neat until you
start to think about the details, upon which you get a nagging
feeling that it's not awfully plausible after all.  From time to
time, it seems, real-life ideas of this nature pop up, and many SF
people are attracted to them.  (Examples? Remember the half-baked
ideas that Campbell was so fond of: Dianetics, the Dean Drive,
psionics ... )

Giant lasers reflecting beams off of orbital mirrors, orbital lasers
pumped by nuclear bombs, railguns accelerating metal cubes at
thousands of g's . . .  all but the railgun seem improbable at best:
I can imagine what that laser beam will look like after passing
through the atmosphere 1 1/2 times!  The x-ray lasers, to the best
of my knowledge, can never be tested without violating treaties
barring nuclear explosions in space.  Even granting all this, how
the hell are they going to hit a missile with enough accuracy to not
only prevent it from hitting its target, but also prevent it from
damaging some other target?

Suppose all this works.  Some fraction of incoming missiles will
still get through (causing "acceptable megadeaths").  This
encourages the Soviets to increase their firepower, for if they
build twice as many missiles, they will inflict twice as much damage
upon us.  Before deployment, the ICBM was expected to be a
deterrent, but it has in fact helped to destabilize the nuclear
balance.  I fear the the same will be true of the SDI.

You can regard this, if you wish, as another discussion on the level
of "how do tides operate on an integral tree", or "what were Earth's
motivations in recalling the ships in _Silent_Running_", but
remember that the SDI could have an enormous influence upon us in a
few decades' time . . .
                                --Peter Alfke  (jpa144@cit-vax)

------------------------------

From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI
Date: 13 Apr 85 14:53:07 GMT

>> The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the
>> initiative and Robert Heinlein for it.
>
> Great.  Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot
> in an airplane.
>
> Okay, okay, in Asimov's case "refuse" might be a bit strong... how
> about "goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid"?

And in Heinlein's case it is at least a byte strong--in fact, I've
never heard ANY evidence that he has any technophobic fear of
flying; I thought he had done it many times.  In any case wouldn't
such a fear be pretty silly in a man who hopes to live long enough
to buy a commercial ticket to the moon?
                                                --pH

------------------------------

From: oliveb!long@topaz.arpa (A Panther Modern)
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI
Date: 13 Apr 85 02:56:34 GMT

>> The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the
>> initiative and Robert Heinlein for it.
>
> Great.  Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot
> in an airplane.

  Great.  Sarcasm from people who refuse to notice that there is no
logical connection between refusal to set foot in airplanes and
quality of view on SDI.

        gnoL evaD
{msoft,allegra,gsgvax,fortune,hplabs,idi,ios,
 nwuxd,ihnp4,tolrnt,tty3b,vlsvax1,zehntel}!oliveb!long

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Apr 85 0957-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #125
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:

            Books - Cook & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Herbert &
                    Kurtz & Far Frontiers,
            Comics - Jon Sable,
            Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Mad Max III

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 23:14:58-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #123

> One strange thing, though. Much of Cook's writing is very good,
> but he shows an unseemly attraction to the word "provenance". This
> rather unused word is encountered several times per Cook novel,
> enough to make it annoying, even though the usage is perfectly
> correct; now every time he uses the word I find my fascination
> with his story broken by the observation of this phenomenon.

I've read and loved a lot of Cook's writing (the fantasy is superb
-- the Dark Empire trilogy is as good as the Black Company stuff,
and The Swordbearer is close.).  He has a few other repeated
patterns.  I've run into the name ``Boroba Thring'' half a dozen
times, once or twice in every series except Black Company.  It
doesn't have any particular connotations: one time it's some old
wizard who gave her (or his) name to a divination, another time it's
a journalist, a third time it's an assassin who gets killed almost
immediately.  Does anyone know if it means anything?

> So far, I have liked Cook's story of the Black Company best of his
> work.  It is refreshing to read a fantasy novel where the GOOD
> protagonists don't inevitably wipe out their EVIL opponents. Cook
> allows for the humanity of his villains, and his "heroes" do some
> pretty reprehensible (though understandable) things while trying
> to stay alive.

Beware Spoilers!

Not quite; the Dominator is EVIL without personality, EVIL enough
for the merely Evil ``Lady'' to unite with the good side against.
But I, too, am quite pleased that the Lady didn't turn out as boring
as Sauron; in fact, was even worth a bit of empathy.  Also, that she
wasn't converted to sweetness and light; she tried to take out her
Good ally, Darling, after they had just defeated the Dominator.
(Not the whole Good side, perhaps; she didn't get the chance, and we
don't know.)  The Lady is as interesting and plausible a character
as any I know of.  Again, let me recommend the Dread Empire trilogy
for the same traits.  O Shing, emperor of the Dread Empire and as
foul a villain as the world knows in book 2, is a real and human
character in book 3.

> review, but the title suggests a reference to Arthur Conan Doyle's
> "The White Company", a historical novel about a company of
> mercenaries, set around the time of the Crusades.  If you enjoy
> the

Hmm.  The second book is ``Shadows Linger'', a plausible title given
the events of that book; but wasn't there a book called ``Shadow
Singer'' out recently also?  Not that all Glen Cook's titles are
taken from other sources: ``A Shadow of All Night Falling'' doesn't
sound like anything I've heard.

Pax VAXque finis taxque vobiscum (at least, your taxes -should- be
over...)
   Bard

------------------------------

From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: Number of the Beast
Date: 15 Apr 85 15:07:20 GMT

        Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.  I can see
what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should all
remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a very
tongue-in-cheek manner.  Anyone who has read a lot of Heinlein's work
should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the characters in that
zoo of a last chapter.  One character there that I couldn't
recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this
one came from??

Mike Stalnaker  UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike
                AT&T:202-376-2593
                USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 10:45 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Time Enough for Love

I didn't know I was in a minority: I also liked Time Enough for
Love.  All of the Lazarus Long stuff that I've read(TEfL,
Methuselah's Children) was good. TEfL was an excellent, indepth look
at a most unique individual: the two thousand year old man(not to be
confused with Mel Brooks). I enjoyed the episodic style, the
notebook, the anecdotes, etc. Maybe I'm strange, but I liked it as
much as Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has Andrew
Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some space
navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed.

Brett Slocum

------------------------------

From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller)
Date: 16 Apr 1985 1944-EST (Tuesday)
Subject: "Chapterhouse:Dune"

** FLAME WARNING **

** SPOILER WARNING **

I have read all of the book's in Herbert's Dune series and liked
them very much (excepting #4 - "God Awful of Dune") I awaited the
arrival of Chapterhouse with great anticipation.  Having just
finished it, I can recommend it with a "Yes, but..".

The plot: We start several years after the end of "Heretics".
Duncan Idaho and Murbella are still captive in the no-ship.  She is
in training to become a Reverend Mother and is very seriously
committed to the Sisterhood.  This worries Duncan, he fears they
will make her stop loving him.  Meanwhile, Chapterhouse (the planet)
is being turned into another Dune and the Sisterhood has created a
Miles Teg ghola, thanks to their new use of axlotl tanks.  (You
guessed it, it's time for another ride on the "How-should-we-give-
him-back-his-memories" carousel) Everyone is terrified that the
Honored Matres will find Chapterhouse and destroy the Sisterhood.
Finally, Murbella rides in on her white horse, unifying the Honored
Matres and the Bene Gesserit.

The strong points: The plot moved along fairly well, without taking
excessive time in dealing with the character's deeper speculations
about the "cosmicness of it all", something that dragged "God
Emperor" to a standstill at times.  I particularly enjoyed the
characterization of Darwi Odrade as Mother Superior, and the
tightrope she walked to preserve the Sisterhood.  It was also nice
to see Duncan seeking freedom from those "damnable Atreides".

Things I did not like: I found the the relationship between Duncan
and Murbella to be shallow, and their upset at being driven apart an
excuse (and a poor one, at that) for the eventual plot development.
The section on the Secret Israel and Lucilla's death I found to be
an interesting idea that went nowhere; as is, it in no way furthers
the story or any aspect of it.  Although I found the eventual
settlement reached between the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres
plausible, it is thrown at the reader without introduction or
explanation.  (I almost get the feeling that Herbert was forced to
edit the book a bit more than he'd planned and said, "Let's throw
this away, they'll never miss it.!")  As for the very end (the last
two or three pages), if Herbert was trying to totally confuse the
reader, he succeeded with me.  I get the feeling that he is about to
push off in some totally new and previously unmentioned direction.
Beyond that, the conversation between Daniel and Marty, two total
unknowns who are introduced in the last two pages (pruning roses, of
all things!), has a lot of the flavor of: "and then the little boy
woke up."

So, as I said, I recommend the book with a "Yes, but..".  I freely
admit that I approached this book as the Duneaddict that I am (I
have the feeling that I just opened myself to a lot of flaming) and
that these are just my immediate impressions after a first reading,
perhaps all will come clear with time.

                - Herb
                ...decvax!mit-athena!mit-speaker!hmiller

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Apr 1985 05:09:19-PST
From: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1  223-7046)
Subject: Katherine Kurtz

Does anyone know when "Bishop's Heir" will be coming out in a
paperback edition?

Also - I was a little disappointed when the Camber triology ended on
such an abrupt note.  It almost seemed as if the author suddenly
decided that she had written enough and had better end things
quickly.  Since I enjoyed the series so much ( and the subsequent
Deryni series), I'm hoping that she will wrap up all of the loose
ends.  Does anyone know if there are any more Deryni books in the
works?

Thanks for your help.

Gita

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: FAR FRONTIERS -- SF & politics
Date: 12 Apr 85 13:03:25 GMT

       FAR FRONTIERS (edited by Jerry Pournelle and Jim Baen)
                      Baen Books, 1985, $2.95.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     FAR FRONTIERS is planned to be a regularly published anthology
of science fiction and speculative fact.  The editors, Jerry
Pournelle and Jim Baen, call it a magazine published in book form.
As one might expect with anything Pournelle has a hand in of late,
it has a political philosophy that shows up explicitly in
Pournelle's introductions, implicitly in the choice of non-fiction
articles, and perhaps covertly in the choice of fiction.  In
reviewing so politicized a collection, I should let the reader know
what my politics are.  I consider myself a moderate liberal,
formerly an extreme liberal, with a growing respect for and interest
in some right-wing political viewpoints.  This makes right-wing
friends think I am left-wing and VICE VERSA.  I now can disagree
with just about anyone.  While I was reading, I was disagreeing with
Pournelle's right-wing politics, but enjoying every minute of doing
so.  I have only a little more respect for Pournelle than I do for
his left-wing mirror image in science fiction, Harlan Ellison.
Pournelle is marginally, and only marginally, less obnoxious in the
ways he chooses to express his politics.

     The anthology opens with an editorial by Pournelle--the man who
attempted to politicize the L-5 Society and has been soap-boxing for
the Strategic Defense Initiative at every turn--complaining that the
American Association for the Advancement of Science has been
over-politicized with a left-wing philosophy.  He may be right, but
coming from him, the complaint is a bit ironic.

     The stories are above average in quality for a science fiction
magazine, though perhaps a bit below average for an anthology where
the editor can pick and choose the best of what has already been
published.  For me the most enjoyable story was "Brain Salad" by
Norman Spinrad, but then I enjoy self-referential stories like last
year's Hugo-nominated "Geometry of Narrative" by Hilbert Schenck.
David Brin's "The Warm Space" is a passable imitation of a Larry
Niven story, and Larry Niven turns in a story that smacks of Alan
Dean Foster on a good day for Foster.  Damon Knight's "Goodbye, Dr.
Ralston" is an enjoyable piece of fluff.  Greg Bear's "Through Road
No Whither" tries to be fluff with hidden teeth, but makes it only
on the fluff count.  "Lost in Translation" by Dean Ing is an
interesting idea with a muddled execution, while "The Boy from the
Moon" shares only the muddled execution.  That leaves Poul
Anderson's "Pride," which, like his TAU ZERO, places uninteresting
people at an interesting event.

     The articles were more interesting than the fiction.  Ben Bova
explains why America stood alone at the U.N.'s committee on the
Peaceful Uses of Space and was voted down 102 to 1 defending the
unrestricted flow of information via direct broadcast satellites.
In other words, the U.S. tried to make it possible for anyone to
broadcast anything into anyone's country and let the listener make
up his/her own mind what to believe.  If this really is a right-wing
idea, it is certainly one right-wing idea I agree with.  I grew up
thinking of freedom of expression as a left-wing ideal.  Of late,
there seem to be those who hold the view that this freedom is a
means to suppress the down-trodden.  If the championing of freedom of
expression moves to the right-wing, I may follow it.

     "Future Scenarios for Space Development" appears to be the text
for a lecture G. Harry Stine gave (we are never told to whom).  It
is a nice introduction to Gompertz S-curves and why they predict a
rosy future for the world.  I have heard the arguments here before,
but not as cogently or expressed as mathematically.  I have a minor
quibble in that Stine thinks that the derivative of a Gompertz curve
is almost a spike.  This would mean that a human, a corporation, or
a society or relatively static, hits its prime over a short period
of time, and then goes static again fairly quickly.  I would expect
the prime to be stretched out over a longer period, with the
derivative being a bell-shaped curve, not a spike.

     The last article is an exposition by Robert Forward on various
concepts for inter-stellar drives and their relation to the Fermi
Paradox, which asks: if there are so many worlds out there, and such
a high probability of intelligent life on many of them, how come we
haven't had company?  The article would have been quite interesting
if it had been the first time I had read it, but much of it was
covered in Forward's afterward to RIDING THE TORCH (which I got at
the same time I got FAR FRONTIERS).

     This magazine in book form had a fair amount of provocative
reading-- certainly more than I expected.  The non-fiction was more
interesting than the fiction, and while it contained little that I
hadn't heard somewhere before, it was good to have it together in
one piece.  There was nothing I loved in FAR FRONTIERS but the
whole, I think, was better than the sum of its parts.  Issue two has
already been published and I bought it immediately on seeing it.
That is an unexpected tribute to Pournelle the editor and perhaps to
Pournelle the politician.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper
But, on May 1, I become                 ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 85 12:58:05 EST (Monday)
Subject: Re: Computerized Comic: SHATTER
From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@Xerox.ARPA>

Dan didn't mention that the first issue of "Shatter" is as the
back-up story of First Comics' "Jon Sable Freelance" (June issue , I
believe).  I also read a lot of SF & adventure comics (for
adventure, JSF is definitely my current favorite.  The artwork and
the stories are excellent and I highly reccomend them.  Note: The
June issue of JSF is a segway into the July issue and is therefore
more enjoyable if you know the characters.  The July issue,
"Homecoming, Part II" is excellent, typical JSF fare and good as a
stand alone comic story).

I was unimpressed with Shatter and think that it must be it could be
done a lot better, both story wise and art wise.  There have been
two so far, both back-ups in JSF.

~Brenda

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 10:47 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack

I would also like to know about a Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack.  Post
it here.  I felt that the end title section should be made into a
music video with scenes from the movie interspliced. Kind of like
the Falcon and Snowman video by David Bowie.

Brett Slocum

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 85 11:37:50 PST (Wednesday)
From: Pugh.es@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Mad Max III

Re: Would someone please tell me the correct title [of Mad Max III]

Mad Max III Beyond Thunderdome, with Mel Gibson, and the autogyro
pilot returning, and Tina Turner.

/Eric

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Apr 85 1018-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #126
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:

             Books - MacAvoy & Powers & Ads in Books &
                     NYPD:2025 & Requests (2 msgs),
             Films - Star Trek IV & Ladyhawke & 
                     Silent Running (2 msgs) & Wizards,
             Miscellaneous - More Bookstore Addresses Wanted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 10:55 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: R.A. MacAvoy mention in LOCUS

        In the latest LOCUS, mention was made that R.A. MacAvoy had
sold two fantasy titles to Bantam (actually, I'm not certain it
which publisher), but neglected to mention the TITLES THEMSELVES.
Anyone have an idea as to what they were (Book of Kells is not an
answer--that's already in process, sort of)?  Ron Cain, are you
listening? So give already, if you are. Inquiring minds (i.e.,
readers with money burning holes in their pockets) want to know.
                Marina Fournier
                <fournier.pasa@Xerox. arpa>

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@topaz.arpa (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Powers's zeroeth book
Date: 16 Apr 85 18:23:06 GMT

        In a review of DINNER AT THE DEVIANT'S PALACE, E.  Leeper
referred to THE GATES OF ANUBIS as the author's "first" book.  In
fact, before that he wrote THE DRAWING OF THE DARK, a fantasy set in
the seventeenth century (I think) at the Turkish siege of Vienna.
Like ANUBIS, it is full of vivid detail; it is good reading.
        The "dark" referred to is a *very* special beer.

Regards,
Chris

Full-Name:  Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:    ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:   (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 10:46 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: ads

****** FLAME ON!!!! *****

One of my biggest gripes about paperback ads are the glossy
cigarette ads that are bound into the book. Not only do I hate
cigarette advertising, but these ads weaken the binding of the
book. You also cannot tear them out without ruining the book. I have
stopped buying books that have these things in them (Hint to
publishers).

****** FLAME OFF ******

The ads on the last pages of the book don't bother me, and neither
do the ads like the SF Book Club that are stuck into the middle of
the book. These are easy to ignore or throw away, they do not
devalue the book, and they can contain useful information.

Brett Slocum

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Apr 85 11:45:02-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: yet more nypd 2025 (bleagh)

I can't say all that much about NYPD 2025 because I only read the
first three chapters while I was eating at a Round Table, and left
the book there. Those chapters deal with an incredibly poorly
written battle scene (mainly brains leaking out of smashed skulls)
and some of the most stupid characters and situations I have ever
heard of. This said battle goes on at least 25 pages, between our
hero, a vet who seemingly does not know the meaning of pain, some
silly NYPD members, and the "Production Security Police" or
somesuch, a band of movie-studio guards who have been given
extra-legal authority (don't ask me why....)

At least the author has enough pride to use a pseudonym. I use the
word author advisedly, however.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85  9:27:21 EST
From: Catherine Cunningham <ccunning@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Book Request

I just finished Brunner's "The Crucible of Time" and really enjoyed
the idea of a book totally about an "alien" society.  Can anyone
give me pointers to any other novels/short stories in which there is
no human presence?

Thanks,
ccunningham@bbncct.arpa

------------------------------

From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa (Ephrayim J. Naiman)
Subject: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..."
Date: 17 Apr 85 04:29:49 GMT

All I remember is that some experiment went haywire and the world
keeps reliving the same day over and over again.  The people spend
the first part of every day remembering their situation through
hints they left themselves the day before.

Any ideas ?

Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
(201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4,allegra,ahuta,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi,...]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Apr 85 17:11:01-PST
From: Terry Bartlett <BARTLETT@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek IV

Someone asked a while back about STIV: The Trial of Captain Kirk. I
am fairly sure that this is at least the working title, and I have
heard (from what I consider to be a reliable source) that the
plot(s) will go along these lines:

First of all, Captain Kirk is in a lot of trouble for disobeying
orders, stealing a starship, and destroying it.  It seems to be
Starfleet's intention to nail him to the wall this time, even if he
is one of their greatest heroes.  The rest of the crew of the
Enterprise have been reassigned.

However, one thing survives the destruction of the Enterprise: the
"flight recorder"(or whatever its equivalent is).  This just happens
to contain all the information related to Project Genesis, and the
Klingons have sent an entire battle group to recover it.

The Federation is not entirely ignorant; they know what is happening
in the Mutara sector.  So, they send Captain Sulu, Checkov, Uhura,
and assorted others in a newly designed Federation Stealth ship to
recover the recorder.  A nice plan, but they blow it, and are
captured by the Klingons.

While this is taking place, Starfleet has been spreading subspace
propaganda about Kirk's trial, apparently so that he can be used for
a final suicide mission.  They give him a choice: even though he has
pled not guilty, and has absolutely no chance to win, they will let
him off if he recovers the recorder and rescues Sulu.  The only
equipment that he has to use is the Klingon ship he captured in
STIII.

This appears to be a movie based on war, and as it turns out, Kirk
succeeds, and in the process destroys a good deal of the Klingon
battle group.  The only thing wrong with this version is that George
Takei has said that they intend to remain fairly close to
information that exists about the ST universe.  If this is the case,
then the enemies here will probably be the Romulans and not the
Klingons. (remember the Organian peace treaty?)  Also, this is
probably going to be the last ST movie with the original cast, as
some characters are supposed to be killed, this time for good.

For what it's worth,

Terry <bartlett@su-csli.arpa>

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: LADYHAWKE
Date: 15 Apr 85 13:02:08 GMT

                             LADYHAWKE
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Based on boxoffice results, I may be one of the very few people
in the world who liked DRAGONSLAYER.  I very simply thought that it
was the best historical fantasy film that I had ever seen.  Up to
that point, I would have judged films like THE SEVENTH VOYAGE OF
SINBAD and JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS as my favorites.  But
DRAGONSLAYER for the first time had a plot that would have made a
decent fantasy novel, and that was head and shoulders above anything
similar I'd ever seen on the screen.  When I saw the coming
attractions for LADYHAWKE, for the first time I thought a film was
coming out that could be comparable in quality to DRAGONSLAYER.
Well, it didn't replace DRAGONSLAYER as my top historical fantasy
but it easily comes in second.

     LADYHAWKE is a beautiful fantasy film set in Medieval France.
It follows the adventures of a likeable young pickpocket played
unexpectedly well by Matthew Broderick.  He escapes from the evil
bishop's dungeons and is about to be re-captured when he is saved by
the mysterious stranger Navarre (Rutger Hauer) who travels with a
hawk on his arm.  At night man and hawk disappear and are replaced
by a beautiful woman who is often seen in the company of a large and
fierce wolf.  The man and woman, it seems, are lovers forever
together but forever apart.  A curse by the jealous bishop turns
Navarre into a wolf at night; his lover Isabeau becomes a hawk by
day.  The story has a marvelous feel of real legend about it, and a
haunting beauty in the way it has been visualized on the screen.

     Matthew Broderick's Phillipe is the main character and at the
same time comic relief.  Broderick incessantly talks to God like
Tevya does in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, but not always so reverently.  He
seems much better in the role than I expected.  Rutget Hauer is
nearly perfect as the mysterious Navarre.  And lovely Michelle
Pfeiffer of SCARFACE and INTO THE NIGHT is terrible as Navarre's
lover.  The problem is that she talks like an American and wears
lipstick and eye-liner.  She fits into the Medieval setting only
slightly better than Pacman.

     And speaking of things out of place, Andrew Powell's rock score
is totally inappropriate.  He takes scenes that otherwise have a
beautiful period and wreaks real havoc with the spirit and texture
of the film.  A couple more faults, if you please.  The camera work
is usually very good, but the use of color filters, particularly for
the sky, is overdone.  And speaking of the sky, if you watch the
moon and know some astronomy, you will see something happen that is
actually an impossibility.  The script is generally good, but too
much of the legend we are simply told rather than shown.  Also note
the anachronistic use of terrycloth.

     Yet with all these faults, and more, this remains one beautiful
and enjoyable fantasy film.  The settings, the photography, Hauer's
acting, the idea of the story are all marvelously realized.  If this
film dies at the boxoffice the way DRAGONSLAYER did, perhaps modern
audiences don't deserve good fantasy.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper
But, on May 1, I become                 ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Silent Running explained
Date: 16 Apr 85 02:38:58 GMT

Jonathan D. Trudel has some interesting explanations for SILENT
RUNNING's problems.  I can accept most of his answers.  I think he
is wrong about the following:

>>Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed.
>>... and the ships could have orbited endlessly at no cost to
>>Earth.
>
>A good answer, but completely wrong.  The ships were cargo vessels
>that were orbitting idly.  The decision to destroy the pods was a
>business move.  It was decided that the ships could be better used
>for what they were designed, and that was to carry cargo to Earth
>colonies, and I remember seeing the logo of American Airlines on
>the side of the ship (Valley Forge?).  As for a reason, do you
>think that the shrewd businessman of the 20-whateverth century
>would tie up several of his most valuable transport ships by having
>them hold a 'useless' cargo that brings no monetary gains?  Not
>bloody likely!

He is implying that the domes cannot operate by themselves without
the transport.  That makes the ending really sad.  You see, Freeman
Lowell dies by blowing up the transport that was connected to his
dome.  The final scene shows the apparently doomed dome floating by
itself.  If it has a chance to survive, any of the domes could have
without the valuable transports.  It is just the part that was
planned to be blown up -- the domes -- that Freeman seems to think
can run by itself perserving the forests.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Silent Running and loss of oxygen
Date: 16 Apr 85 02:53:52 GMT

I have to admit that it is at least conceivable that the oceans
create enough oxygen so that the dire consequences of my first
posting could be avoided.  I bow to the people who have a better
background in ecology than I do (and that is possibly quite a few
people on the net.)  I find is hard to believe that the land would
be so polluted that the forests would have to be shot into space and
the oceans could keep on churning out oxygen unscathed.  I also
still contend the jump to the new ecosystem could be pretty grim (I
am responding to the net as a whole, I think mouse agreed with me on
this point).  Also, I am not sure how secure I would feel if I lived
in Kansas with all the oxygen coming from the oceans.  :-) I did not
cry at the end of SILENT RUNNING, but I can understand that some
people did.  This is a "go for the emotions" film.  I think as a
7-year-old I cried when I read CHARLOTTE'S WEB.  That doesn't mean
that I think it plausible that spiders really do try to save the
lives of pigs.  I didn't even then.  As a sad story, SILENT RUNNING
is a matter of taste.  My objection was more about logical flaws.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #106
Date: 16 Apr 85 03:12:20 GMT

I can't find the original of this response so I will follow up on
Barry's response.  I am not responding to him but the original
submitter.  (If you follow that, perhaps you can explain it to me.)

 >I saw the film WIZARDS again recently.  Though admittedly it has a
 >number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and
 >it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too.
 >Anyone else have any comment here?

I find that when I say I do like a film, I can often get three or
four responses that agree.  When I say I don't like a film and step
back, the net seems to turn into Anzio.  Well, once more sticking my
head in the lion's mouth, I didn't like WIZARDS.  Avatar was
supposed to be for everything good like guzzling liquor, having
semi-clad maidens around, cigars, etc.  He was anti-technology.
Except for perhaps the maidens he was against everything I am for
and for everything I am against.  And if he was against the evil use
of technology for force, how does he explain how he finally kills
his brother.  Isn't that technology for power at its worse?  This is
another film that doesn't really have a very clear idea what it is
trying to say.  All it is saying is what the author likes
automatically leads to a better world and what he doesn't like leads
to chaos.  There were also charges at the time the film came out
that some of the characters (like Necron-90) were stolen from
another artist's work.  I don't remember clearly what the fuss was
all about, but it shows how sincere the preaching of the film was.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Apr 85 17:24:09-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: More bookstore addresses wanted

I've received several of the addresses I was looking for, and as
part of the replies ave also gained a few more bookstores that I
need full mailing addresses for:

Book Nook                     Mile-Hi Comics
xxx?                          xxx?
Atlanta, GA  xxxxx?           Denver, CO  xxxxx?

Book World                    Powell's Books
xx? Chapel Street             xxx? (11th and Burnside)
New Haven, xx  xxxxx?         Portland, Oregon  xxxxx?

The Foundation Bookstore      The Tech Coop
xx? Rosemary St               xxx? (MIT student center on Mass. Ave.)
Chapel Hill, NC  xxxxx?       Cambridge, MA  xxxxx?

Thanks,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Apr 85 1014-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #127
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:

             Books - Ford & Doc Smith & Vernor Vinge &
                     A Request Answered,
             Television - Jetsons (3 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: THE DRAGON WAITING
Date: 16 Apr 85 06:50:26 GMT

> ecl@ahutb.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>                     THE DRAGON WAITING by John M. Ford
>     The problem, I think, is that I'm not a historian.  I know
>some history, but there is so much history in this book--and it's
>not all real.  Though the book is chock-a-block with real
>historical characters (Richard III, the Medicis, Louis XI, etc.),
>no one seems to be quite the way the history book describe them--in
>fact, none of them seem to be Christian.  Everyone seems to belong
>to some strange cult or other, each with its own special symbols
>and rites.  Since my knowledge of *real* Fifteenth Century history
>is perhaps not all that it should be (especially in Italy and
>France, where most of the beginning of the book takes place), I
>spent most of the novel telling myself that I was merely confused.

I, too, recently read THE DRAGON WAITING and had much the same
problem.  Then, I read in the notes that Ford was attempting to
present a "solution" or scenario to the "Missing Princes" problem.
The problem being that before Richard III, a reasonably nice guy for
a noble, took the throne of England his nephews (who had better
claims to the throne) died.  The problem is that no one has been
able to prove who or what killed them.  It's quite possible that
they could have died of some random fever, on the other hand,
somebody who favored Richard (or Richard himself) could have had
them murdered.  Either way, there's no conclusive evidence as to the
cause of their deaths.

Once I knew that, I found myself re-reading various portions of
novel and everything fell into place just beautifully.  (Re-reading
more carefully also cleared up some other points I was confused
about).  So, to summarize, I think THE DRAGON WAITING is a
*fantastic* book.  Ford's proposed solution is just mind-boggling.
As a reader, you have to really *read* this book.  It's not a book
to be simply skimmed.  Ford is a *very* precise, able, and efficient
writer, one of the best wordsmiths I've ever read.  He tends to
write just enough to create the effect he's after -- and no more.
He also tends to give the readers just enough information to figure
out what's going on and why -- and no more.  This kind of precision
in writing is very difficult to pull off because if the writer
miscalculates, he can leave the reader very confused.  On the other
hand, if he does things just right, he can leave the reader with an
amazing sense of completion when the focal idea of the entire novel
makes itself clearer and clearer as the last few chapter slowly
unfold.  In THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford does it just right.

        Ray Chen
        princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Another Lensman Story?
Date: 16 Apr 85 07:46:46 GMT

ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast) writes:
>In "Expanded Universe", Heinlein, in a tribute to E. E. (Doc)
>Smith, says that there was to have been a seventh novel (not
>"Masters of the Vortex"--that seems to me to be a side-stream
>novel), that Smith had it all worked out in detail (but not
>necessarily written down), and that he told Heinlein the ending.
>All Heinlein says about it is that the ending "develops by
>inescapable logic from clues in CHILDREN OF THE LENS."
>
>Anybody out there know anything else?  Does the story exist?  What
>are the clues?  I have a few ideas but would like to see what all
>of you think.

Can you say "story cycle"?  I thought you could.

From the clues in COTL:

1)  The Kinnison kids will find a planet and settle down in a nice,
    loving, incestous relationship and be the Guardians of
    Civilization in their spare time.

2)  After a long period of time, a new threat to civilization will
    develop:  one that the Guardians won't be able to handle
    by themselves.

3)  The Guardians will then attempt to breed a race to supplant them
    as the Guardians of Civilization.

4)  As a by-product of the struggle and hardship necessary to
    produce such a new race, I think the old Civilization will be
    partially or totally destroyed.

5)  The races involved in the breeding plan will of necessity become
    the primary moving forces behind the new Civilization much as
    the Rigellians, Tellurians (humans to you uneducated people),
    Velantians, and Palanians are the primary movers in the present
    Civilization.

6)  Steps 1-5 have already happened as the reader is presumably a
    third-level intellect of the new race.

7)  What is left is the presumably final confrontation followed by
    the "passing on" of the current Guardians of Civilization.

Note:   There are actually two separate Civilizations.  The
        Civilization that the readers know as CIVILIZATION and the
        civilization of the Guardians.  Due to the fact that full
        knowledge of the function and purpose of the Guardians would
        damage an immature civilization (read less than third level)
        badly, the two civilizations will remain essentially
        separate with the mature civilization functioning as
        Guardian to the immature one.  Those who reach the third
        level would probably live a "normal" lifetime and then
        simply fade away to join the Guardians.  Given the amount of
        time between major threats, the Guardians will probably
        include more humans and members of other various races.  My
        theory is also that most of humanity (and some other races)
        will be destroyed.  Instead of attempting to prevent damage
        to the current Civilization by premature intervention, the
        Guardians will instead allow the immature Civilization to
        "suffer".  The prime movers of the immature Civilization
        will of necessity bear the brunt of the damage done as they
        will be the prime targets for those wishing to corrupt or
        weaken the current Civilization and they will be the ones
        doing most of the resisting.  The new threat will mark the
        beginning of the decline of the human race (and other races)
        as we know it.

I don't think anything I've outlined is too far-fetched as I believe
I can back up *everything* I've proposed.  I can also understand
Smith's belief that NOBODY would publish this story.  Talk about
depressing.  Most (if not all) of the conventional human race either
gets killed off or subverted before some new race(s) rise to pull
the fat out of the fire.  Then at the end of the story, the
Tellurian (and other) Guardians of Civlization will either wander
off into some other dimension or commit mass suicide depending on
your interpretation.  Nice, huh?  I have to admit, though, that I
wish Smith had written the story.  I'd like to read it for real.

        Ray Chen
        princeton!tilt!chenr

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: TRUENAMES (minor spoiler)
Date: 16 Apr 85 18:10:38 GMT

                     TRUE NAMES by Vernor Vinge
                       Bluejay, 1985, $6.95.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     TRUE NAMES is a science fiction story with a very good
word-of-mouth reputation not entirely deserved.  The story takes
place on two planes, our own and that of a computer game universe.
The second plane combines the ultimate in computer games with the
ultimate in illegal hacking.  The players appear to each other only
as their game-playing alter-egos, without learning who each other
really are.  Our hero, Mr. Slippery, has been blackmailed by the
real plane government to try to capture a sort of ultimate amoral
hacker known as the Mailman.

     While I was unconvinced while I was reading the novel that all
the computer technology is a likely outgrowth of current technology,
other people I have discussed the story with were impressed with how
well Vinge has taken the elements of classical fantasy and made them
possible with computer technology.  As a straight fantasy story,
TRUE NAMES is flawed.  It has most of its action towards the middle,
and while it promises an important confrontation for near the end of
the story, it sidesteps the need to have it.  In fact, it is
structured more like a long story followed by a short story with the
same characters.

     The illustrations in the Bluejay edition do not add a whole lot
of wonder to the story.  I think several of the artists that Jim
Frenkel is getting for Bluejay Books are not a whole lot more
visually imaginative than his readers.  Most of the illustrations
appear a page or two before or after the action they illustrate, and
in at least one case putting an illustration too soon telegraphs an
important plot twist.  The illustrations are supposed to add to the
effect of the story and these detract.

     The story is followed by an afterword by Marvin Minsky, who
ties the story into his artificial intelligence work, but somehow
his enthusiasm for TRUE NAMES seems a matter of form for an
afterword.  His enthusiasm for his own work may be somewhat greater
than his enthusiasm for the story.  In fairness, I should add that
it is clear from Minsky's lectures and some of the illustrations he
gives that he is a science fiction fan.

     TRUE NAMES has enough good ideas to make it a worthwhile story,
but it is not really clear to me that the new Bluejay edition has
enhanced much more than the price.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper
But, on May 1, I become                 ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 01:47:44 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
To: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman@utah-cs
Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..."

This sounds an awful lot like 'Sketches Among the Ruins of My Mind'
by Phil Farmer.  It's not a book, though, unless Farmer turned it
into one and I never heard about it; it's a novella, originally
published in Harry Harrison's NOVA 3 and reprinted in THE BEST
SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #3 edited by Terry Carr.  I recommend
hunting for it in the latter book, since 1973 was such an amazingly
good year for sf.  To give you an idea, just look at some of the
stories from that year: 'Rumfuddle' by Jack Vance; 'The Deathbird'
by Harlan Ellison; 'Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand' by Vonda McIntyre;
'The Death of Dr. Island' by Gene Wolfe; and 'The Women Men Don't
See' by James Tiptree, Jr.  I consider 'Rumfuddle' and 'Dr. Island'
to be close to the top of my list of all-time favorite stories, and
the others are not far away...

Just happened to be poking through that BEST a few weeks ago,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 85 11:10:18 EST
From: Jon Trudel <TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Jetsons' Robot

Dave Fuchs writes-
>... what's the name of the robot that almost takes over George
>Jetson's job?

Ahhh, a question I can finally answer briefly.  It was Uniblab, and
it was built at a cost of approximately one billion dollars, a mere
drop in the bucket for Spacely Sprockets.

Jonathan D. Trudel

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 85 12:07:05 EST
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: George Jetson's rival

Twas UNIBLAB.  It appeared in a couple of episodes, too.

Tangentially, while appreciating all of those Hanna-Barbera attempts
to make animation a viable product for prime-time TV, I have to say
that I prefer THE FLINTSTONES to THE JETSONS.  Both were derivative,
of course (F. from THE HONEYMOONERS and J. from BLONDIE), but it
seems as if F. transcended its sources, getting into a very funny
series of parodies of other TV shows, movies, famous personalities,
etc., whereas J., despite the futuristic trappings, kept with
standard sitcom plots.

Also, as far as SF goes, F. was the better series.  J. simply added
gadgets to standard plots (flying cars, tube transportation,
food-a-matic, robot maids) while F. derived part of its humor from
showing how modern gadgets might have worked in the Stone Age
(mastodons on wheels as vacuum cleaners, birds with horns tied to
their beaks as the tone arms on record players).  THE FLINTSTONES
provided a plausible explanation, surely an important criterion for
SF (although I still wonder about prehistoric TV and radio...).

Always a fan of inappropriate technology,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 15:47:43 EST
From: Chuck Kennedy <kermit@BRL-VGR.ARPA>
To: drf@su-ai.ARPA
Subject: Computers in SF: names

The name of the robot that nearly takes over George Jetson's job is
Uniblab.  My favorite line:
        "Planet poker, planet poker, Jupiter gin, Jupiter gin..."

        -chuck kennedy

------------------------------

Date: Tue 16 Apr 85 21:58:44-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Computer names....

        As has been noted, all the computers in Asimovs' Multivac
stories end in the letters 'ac' Examples: Multivac, Planetary AC,
and Cosmic AC.  For 10 bonus points, does anyone remember what the
AC stands for?  Reply to me, and I will post the winner in a week or
so.
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Apr 85 08:15:13-PST
From: Jackie <Burhans%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #124

In WarGames the kid is trying to break into the computer to play
some games (those crazy hacker-types!) and after seeing a
video-taped interview with the scientist who worked on the computer
hits upon the idea of trying the scientist' son's name as a userid.
As I recall the son's name was Joshua, wasn't it? As I remember it
the computer thought the kid was Joshua and addressed him as such. I
thought it was a realistic scenario of how someone might get
unauthorized access to a computer--security is not great when you
use your name, initials, phone-number, kid's name ... as passwords.

JB

Oh-Did I say "...computer thought...?", of course we all know that
computers don't think!

------------------------------

From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen)
Date: 17 Apr 1985 1414-EST (Wednesday)
Subject: "Wargames" computer

>I seem to remember that the computer in Wargames also liked to be
>called Jerimy or something like that.
>                        Jim Rachiele

        No, Jim.  Its name is not Jerimy, as you thought, but it is
something like that.  It seems that the designer of our favorite
WOPR had a son.  The designer often addressed the computer by his
son's name (which also happens to be the secret password for the
system), Joshua.
                                        Scott Kitchen

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16 Apr 1985 19:26:21-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: More trivia (Multivac)

        A little bit more trivia - Why did Asimov name his computer
Multivac?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 1985 1746 PST
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Computers in SF

I have not seen anyone mention "BOLO" by Keith Laumer.  Bolos are
fighting machines that resemble tanks but are intelligent and
autonomous.  The book consists of short stories that loosely follow
the development of Bolos.  Memorable short stories for me were "The
Last Command" and "War Relic".  Good emotional stuff.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Apr 85 1052-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #128
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:

           Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) & Herbert & Powers,
           Films - Mad Max III & Ladyhawke (2 msgs)
           Miscellaneous - Roman Soldiers' Talk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: Re: NofTheBeast - True STINKER
Date: 17 Apr 85 06:11:08 GMT

> He grew up reading Heinlein and pays homage to him in many of his
> books.

   I grew up watching cartoons on Saturday morning, but I out-grew
those, too!

   To say that Heinlein is self-indulgent in the greater part of his
novels is understatement indeed.  I haven't bothered with ``Number
of the Beast'' but, for my money, to say that ``Friday'' was up to
RAH's standards is pretty damning.  It was hundreds of pages of
non-story mascarading as character development.  Heinlein has never
shown that he has any depth of understanding when it comes to real
human beings, but his portrayals of women are simply travesties!
``Friday'' is, as I had expected, just that.

   Now, before you scream about unfairness, I liked Heinlein's
juvenile stories and I liked ``The Moon is a Harsh Mistress''.  When
Bob stays in his place (writing hard-SF idea stories) he's OK; when
he starts to think that he's a Writer of Merit and a Philosopher,
that's when the bullshit starts flying and that's when I drop his
book for something more enlightening.  Like scrubbing my bathroom,
or taking out the trash.

Ray Lubinsky     University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
                 uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 85 23:27:49 EST
From: Bob Webber <WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Sir Isaac Newton and TNOTB

> From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker)
>       Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.

of course not.  however, TNOTB is in essence a large joke.  people
who did not get it think it was a major waste of time and flame.
people who did get it realize that you can't explain a joke to
someone who didn't get it; so they have less reason to write.

> One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir
> Isaac Newton.

i believe that was the name of one of the Venusians (sp?) (a
dragon-like race inhabiting Venus) in one of his juveniles, Star
Beast.  these sentients "spoke" with humans using a voder (a speech
synthesizer that one could play like an accordian).  as this memory
is over a decade old, take it with a grain of salt.

                             BOB (webber@rutgers.arpa)

------------------------------

From: wanginst!ss@topaz.arpa (Sid Shapiro)
Subject: Re: Number of the Beast
Date: 18 Apr 85 01:09:08 GMT

>       Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?

Nope - I did too.

> One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir
> Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this one came from??

Of course I don't have my library with me at the moment and I may
get this wrong, but - I believe he was a character in _Between
Worlds_ (is that the real title).  The story, which I am a lot more
sure of, is a boy, Don something, who does some traveling by
himself, ends up on Venus during the Venusian revolt against Earth,
fights with the rebellion.  It turns out that he is carrying a
secret message in his ring from his father to scientists on Venus
which will enable them to do something which will help stop the war.
Sound familiar?  Sir Isaac was a Venusian scientist.  / Sid /

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Apr 1985 06:14:20-PST
From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1576)
Subject: Heinlein Answers

Sir Isaac Newton (the dragon) appeared in one of Heinlein's
Juveniles -- "Between Planets" (I think).  Andy Libby first appeared
in the short story "Misfit", first anthologized in "Revolt in 2100",
later in "The Past Through Tomorrow".
                                        Andrew Kenah
                             "Bibliography is just an accident."

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Number of the Beast
Date: 16 Apr 85 15:51:22 GMT

>       Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.  I can
>see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should
>all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a very
>tongue-in-cheek manner.  Anyone who has read alot of Heinlien's
>work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the characters in
>that zoo of a last chapter.  One character there that I couldn't
>recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this
>one came from??

Sir Isaac was a major character in the book "Between Planets" ; he
was a member of the dominant race on Venus.  "Between Planets" was a
pretty good juvenile (which I still re-read on occasion), and was
interesting in that it seemed not to be connected very strongly to
the future history.  I remember that when I read "Friday" I ran into
some internal evidence that connected "Friday" not only with "Gulf"
(pretty explicit, that) but with "Starman Jones" and "Between
Planets", so it looks like a whole 'nother future history in
there....

By the way, I rather liked "Number of the Beast" myself, but then I
liked "I Will Fear No Evil" as well.

Another by the way: there were not only a lot of Heinlein's other
characters in the end of NotB, but a number of real people as well:
the "Sir Bela" that was mentioned is Poul Anderson in SCA guise.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks to the following people who wrote with
similar information:
Bill Richard (x!wjr@topaz)
Wayne Throop (rtp47!throopw@topaz)
binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl
]

------------------------------

From: teddy!mjn@topaz.arpa (Mark J. Norton)
Subject: Re: "Chapterhouse:Dune"
Date: 18 Apr 85 14:04:26 GMT

                  ******  Spoiler Warning  ******
       ******  Don't read unless you've read the book  ******

> As for the very end (the last two or three pages), if Herbert was
> trying to totally confuse the reader, he succeeded with me.  I get
> the feeling that he is about to push off in some totally new and
> previously unmentioned direction.  Beyond that, the conversation
> between Daniel and Marty, two total unknowns who are introduced in
> the last two pages (pruning roses, of all things!), has a lot of
> the flavor of: "and then the little boy woke up."
>
>               - Herb

You weren't paying attention to the sub-plots!  Three or four times
during the book Duncan Idaho mentioned that he had visions of two
people on the other side of some network of light.  This couple
spoke to him once or twice, and were seen in a garden of some sort.

Heretics of and Chapterhouse: are both concerned with various
peoples returning from the Scattering caused by the Tyrant (Leto
II).  Two of these are the Honored Matres and the Futars.  The
couple in the garden are another Scattered race: remants of the
super-Face Dancers which fled their Tlielax masters.

Now, put this together with the fact that Idaho and Sheeana fled to
an unknown destination in a no-ship at the end of C: Dune and you
get a sneak peek of Dune-7 (Beneath the Planet of the Lorna Dunes).

           Mark J. Norton
           decvax!genrad!panda!mjn
           mjn@sunspot

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 1985 23:01-PST
Subject: Re: Powers' zeroeth book - SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #126
From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA

There have been 5 (that's five) books published by Tim Powers. Some
months ago Powers was on Hour-25 (a local [LA] Friday night radio
show on Pacifica's KPFK concerning itself with SF - often
abominable, but occasionally interesting when they have a good
guest), and he referred to all 5.  While skulking around a local
used bookstore I came across one of them - Epitaph in Rust by
Timothy Powers (you can tell it's the same guy because Ashbless gets
mentioned early on and the hero is mutilated by the end of the book,
odd that). It was published by Laser books some time in the 70s
(it's on loan at the moment, so I can't be precise).  It was
published before any of the three currently in print, but has the
same setting as Dinner at Deviant's Palace.  In fact, it looks like
the latter was built on the ruins of Epitaph.  Anyway, it's about a
monk who is forced to leave his monastery in the hills and make his
way in post-apocalypse LA.  Unknown to him the authorities (read
androids) believe he possesses a valuable piece of information and
attempt to capture him.  He falls in with the political opposition
who also happen to be Shakespearean actors.  Fireworks ensue.  While
it doesn't reach the frenzied exuberance of The Anubis Gates, it
still is a fun read.
        BTW, has anyone read the fifth Powers book? (I'm afraid I
can't recall the name, but it's the one that isn't any of the
following: Epitaph in Rust, The Drawing of the Dark, The Anubis
Gates, Dinner at Deviant's Palace).
        mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 20:58:07 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: "Mad Max III"

Last I heard, the American release title is to be "The Road Warrior
II: Beyond Thunderdome".  The issue is cloudy because "The Road
Warrior" was known as "Mad Max II" in Australia.

                           Peter Reiher

------------------------------

From: timeinc!dwight@topaz.arpa (Dwight Ernest)
Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE
Date: 16 Apr 85 11:52:09 GMT

We saw LADYHAWKE this weekend. I must take issue with several of
your points, and add a couple of comments, after reading your fine
review, Mark.

First, on Michelle Pfeiffer as Isabeau: We thought she was
extraordinarily appropriate in the role. She's beautiful, impetuous,
strong-willed, and, yes, anachronistic in these strengths and in her
power and her sexuality. But it's attractive to speculate how a
"modern woman" would fit into these medieval times, and LADYHAWKE
does just that.

Your review was more than just a mild spoiler, incidentally--
perhaps I'm slow, but one of the most marvelous parts of the film
was in slowly making the connection between the hawk and Isabeau,
and between the man and the wolf. I'm glad I didn't know about that
before I saw it.

And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black
stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other
cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to
someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting
decision when they found that horse.

Verdict: Don't miss it. Enjoy it. Especially with your SO--for the
scene at the end is perhaps one of the most romantic and delightful
scenes ever filmed, although it's simple.

        --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN  \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight
          Time Inc. Edit./Prod. Tech. Grp., New York City
          Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523
          Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST

------------------------------

From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE
Date: 18 Apr 85 01:48:10 GMT

<this message may have been somehow screwed up in a previous posting>

>We saw LADYHAWKE this weekend.  I must take issue with several of
>your points, and add a couple of comments, after reading your fine
>review, Mark.

Well, I can't complain if you take issue and in the same breath call
it a "fine" review.  Thanks.

>First, on Michelle Pfeiffer as Isabeau: We thought she was
>extraordinarily appropriate in the role.  She's beautiful,
>impetuous, strong-willed, and, yes, anachronistic in these
>strengths and in her power and her sexuality.

That is not what I objected to.  She just seems too American
somehow.  It doesn't help that I recently saw INTO THE NIGHT, but
her accent seems all wrong.  The makeup may have been a strong
contributory factor, also.  She just does not sound Medieval when
she talks.  Rutger Hauer, carried it off and I think Matthew
Broderick was not too far out of place.  I just never believed her
character as coming out of that period.

>Your review was more than just a mild spoiler, incidentally--
>perhaps I'm slow, but one of the most marvelous parts of the film
>was in slowly making the connection between the hawk and Isabeau,
>and between the man and the wolf.  I'm glad I didn't know about
>that before I saw it.

By the time I saw the film I had heard the premise in presentations
at science fiction conventions, in ads, on TV's At The Movies, in a
presentation at a science fiction society by Joan Vinge who is
writing the novel, etc.  Also I contend it is almost impossible to
review the film without giving that much away.

Incidentally, none of these excuses would I find acceptable if the
tables were turned and I had read just the USENET review before
seeing the film.  What can I say?  I was desensitized by the advance
publicity and I flubbed it.

>And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black
>stallion--was just incredible.  Perhaps, given your other
>cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to
>someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting
>decision when they found that horse.

Not a detail I am likely to notice.  I thought that the horse looked
good in BLACK STALLION, this one did not impress me so much, but it
could be I just didn't notice.

>Verdict: Don't miss it.  Enjoy it.  Especially with your SO--for
>the scene at the end is perhaps one of the most romantic and
>delightful scenes ever filmed, although it's simple.

I actually thought this scene was a bit drawn out and for reasons I
won't mention here, unrealistic.  (Well, it is mostly for what most
of the people are doing or not doing in this scene.)  Incidentally
this last paragraph of yours is something of a minor spoiler in
itself.

I have to agree with your verdict.  I was impressed with the film.
Thank you for following up on my review.

                           Mark Leeper
                           ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri 19 Apr 85 04:48:31-CST
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Roman soldiers' talk

            ^^^^^^ How WOULD Roman soldiers talk? ^^^^^^

A little while back, someone complained at the use of distinctly
modern locutions by Roman soldiers in an SF story.  While seeing how
something like that could "sit wrong" with a reader, I'd like to
defend it in principle.

In effect, the author must "translate", as much from an alien era
and culture as from the actual language (in this case, presumably
Vulgar Latin-- and, no, I don't mean "dirty", tho since they were
soldiers, it undoubtedly was).  The author has 2 choices, either to
use archaic English to convey an aura of antiquity, or to match the
content with some corresponding contemporary expressions.  From the
examples cited, as that author wasn't writing about Ancient Noble
Romans, he rightly equated their modes of expression with their
counterparts in this era.

Of course, if the author is also a scholar, s/he could use direct
translations of what would have probably been the actual parlance
used.  But even across languages in contemporary cultures, direct
translations of language A can be utterly wrong rendered into
language B.  I remember, around 1970, vetting some translations of
French romances in which sweet little old ladies would exclaim, "My
God!"  It was an \accurate/ translation.  Sweet little old \French/
ladies say "Mon Dieu!" and neither they nor their hearers would
think anything of it.  But NOT sweet little old ladies in 1970 USA!
A more truly accurate translation would have been something like "My
goodness!" or "Gracious!"  The original significance was the same,
but rather than "real swearing", these expressions are euphemisms as
proper to their speakers as military jargon to soldiers.

And speaking of real translations of SF from French, I'll always
wonder whether the mention of "the stars in their orbits" on the 1st
page of YOLANDA, GIRL OF THE EROSPHERE (Dominique Verseau, Dell,
1975) was a mis-translation, or a direct indication of how ghod-
awful the book was going to be.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Apr 85 1125-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #129
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Dick & Heinlein (5 msgs) &
                         McCaffrey & Saberhagen,
                 Films - Silent Running,
                 Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 15:27:59 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: "Do you recall this book..."

Ephrayim J. Naiman (pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa) writes:
> All I remember is that some experiment went haywire and the world
> keeps reliving the same day over and over again.  The people spend
> the first part of every day remembering their situation through
> hints they left themselves the day before.

There was a Philip Dick short story something like this (I can't
remember the title! Bibliography is but a minor hobby with me.)  The
town in the story (not the whole world) is an artificial recreation
of a real town, and some company uses the people (who constantly
relive the same day, with variations) as test subjects for new
advertising techniques.  The story concerns one man who, of course,
figures out that Something Is Wrong and eventually escapes the town,
only to find the edge of the enormous (to him) table that the model
city is sitting on . . .

There was another Dick story about people who enter the bodies of
Barbie and Ken dolls for relaxation.  Normally they forget who they
really are while in the doll bodies, but one group of people have
little notes pasted to the bathroom mirrors in the Barbie
play-houses; the notes say (for example) "YOU ARE NOT KEN.  YOU ARE
BOB DOBBS, A REAL HUMAN BEING".  These people preferred to live in
the fantasy world as themselves.

Does this help?  Does anyone know the titles of these stories?

                                --Peter Alfke (jpa144@cit-vax)

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Apr 1985 06:47:49-PST
From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: Heinlein story information, and a rebuttal

>        Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.  I can
> see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should
> all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a
> very tongue-in-cheek manner.  Anyone who has read a lot of
> Heinlein's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the
> characters in that zoo of a last chapter.  One character there
> that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton.
> Anybody know where this one came from??

The Venusian dragon Sir Isaac Newton, was introduced in "Between
Planets", as a fairly high-ranking scientist and politician among
the dragon society on Venus.  The society was VERY highly regarded
by the humans on Venus.

> I didn't know I was in a minority: I also liked Time Enough for
> Love.  All of the Lazarus Long stuff that I've read(TEfL,
> Methuselah's Children) was good. TEfL was an excellent, indepth
> look at a most unique individual: the two thousand year old
> man(not to be confused with Mel Brooks). I enjoyed the episodic
> style, the notebook, the anecdotes, etc. Maybe I'm strange, but I
> liked it as much as Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a
> Harsh Mistress.
>
> BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has
> Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some
> space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed.

Andy Libby was introduced in the short story "Misfit", which came
out in the "Green Hills of Earth" collection.  He was a green
(sometimes literally green because of space-sickness) recruit in the
future equivalent of the Depression era Civilian Construction Corps,
which took out-of-work young people and gave them government funded
construction jobs.  In this case, they were building on and moving
asteroids to be used as long-range communications stations between
Mars and Earth (I believe).

SET FLAME/MILD

Since we have heard so many flames from people who despise anything
RAH has done since (fill in the blank, but its always either
Stranger in a Strange Land, or they include that in the bad books),
it is refreshing to hear from people who like most/all of his books.
I have read everything that he has written that I can find, and buy
every new book of his that comes out as soon as they hit the street.
I like the overwhelming majority of his work, with only a few
exceptions (Farnhams Freehold I found boring).  I enjoyed Time
Enough For Love very much, and agree that the episodic style was
refreshing and interesting.  I thoroughly enjoyed the final scene(s)
in Number of the Beast, since I encountered so many old friends (Sir
Isaac was one of the most pleasurable, since I hadn't thought about
him in years).  I liked Friday, even though I wonder about Baldwins
incompetence in picking a deputy who would basically destroy his
organization and screw over all of his employees after he died.

Heinlein lovers unite!  We have nothing to lose but some flames!

                                                Ken Moreau

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 10:48 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Number of the Beast

tNotB is not one my my favorites of Heinlein's, but it doesn't
deserve the complete flames which have been heaped on it in recent
issues.  Admittedly the characters spend far too long arguing about
who's in control rather than solving their problems, but if viewed
as a consideration of interactions of people to authority, and of
acquiring responsibility, its not bad.  The last part was an
interesting bit of nostalgia, seeing all the old characters in an
unlikely setting.

By the way, Sir Isaac Newton is from RAH's 'planetary revolt' novel
set mainly on Venus.  I believe the title is "Between Planets", for
the hero was born in orbit and can claim citizenship on several
planets.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 10:41 PST
Subject: Sir Isaac Newton
From: A. Marina Fournier <fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
To: dolqci!mike@Topaz.ARPA

        Sir Isaac Newton is a Venerian (s.k.a Venusian) Dragon in
Between Planets, one of RAH's juveniles, which I enjoyed very much.
Delightful tale of an adolescent suddenly caught in a very explosive
political situation far from home.  Sir Isaac says things like...
                Shucks,
                        Marina

------------------------------

To: Slocum@hi-multics.arpa
Subject: Re: Time Enough for Love - Early Libby story
Date: 19 Apr 85 09:11:46 PST (Fri)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

The story which described the Space Navy discovering Libby's
mathematical talents was "Misfit".  It appears in:

The Past Through Tomorrow
(collection of Heinlein's works)

Minds Unleashed
(edited by Groff Conklin)

Astounding Science Fiction, November 1939

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 85 17:37:47-EST (Fri)
From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa
To: dolqci!mike%topaz.arpa@amc-hq.arpa
Subject: Heinlein

mike,

You are definitely not the only one who liked NotB.  I too (and my
daughter) could recognize most of the characters at the end.  We
loved!!! it.  Especially me!!!  I recognized almost all of the
characters too, and the books on their lists were mostly on my
favorite list too.

Sir Isaac Newton was a Venerian "dragon" appearing in _Between
Planets_.  The copy I have is by DelRey Books and was published in
1981.  The first publication was in 1951.  It is one of the
"juvenile" books.  (Of course, I still re-read it periodically).

Sir Isaac speaks with the aid of a voder/vocoder since he cannot
approximate English.  He was one of the ones I was most tickled to
see again in NotB since I don't think he ever appeared anywhere
else.

It is terrific to find another died-in-the-wool afficionado of RAH.

                                Sue Tabron
                                <stabron@amc-hq>

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ir278@topaz.arpa (Paul Anderson)
Subject: Pern Question
Date: 20 Apr 85 07:49:49 GMT

I was thumbing through the Atlas of Pern when it dawned upon me to
calculate the size of the planet. Based on the distances between
time zones, I found that Pern was approximately the size of Saturn's
moon Rhea - one _eighth_ the diameter of Earth! (half that of the
moon)

Pern must be pretty damn dense if it has gravity anywhere near that
on Earth (the densest planet in our solar system).  Perhaps this is
why those huge dragons can fly so easily?

"It's not me that's mad, it's the rest of the world, I'm
 the only sane one."
Paul Anderson (And'rson)
UC San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 85 11:19 PST
From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Saberhagen

I just finished reading Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords trilogy
(available from the SF Book Club as /The Complete Book of Swords/),
and thought a few comments might be in order. First, I thought an
earlier book based in the same milieu two thousand years earlier,
/Empire of the East/, is truly one of the best SF or Fantasy novels
I've ever read. It seems to be standard operating procedure now for
a publisher to release a blurb from a 'respected author' favorably
comparing their latest fantasy release to /The Lord of the Rings/.
/Empire of the East/ is the only novel I've yet read that comes
anywhere near this pretty unreasonable expectation. You can bet that
my enjoyment of his earlier work set some high expectations the
Swords trilogy had to live up to.

Second, I read the book quickly. It was certainly readable, as is
most of Saberhagen's stuff, and on the first reading of such a work,
I'll generally rip through the book in a matter of hours. As I did.
So, my thoughts on these books are not particularly deep.

                   ******   Mild Spoiler   ******

Something to keep in mind when reading the Swords trilogy is that it
was written to be the database for a computer game. (?!)  To my
knowledge, no such game has yet appeared, but occasionally I could
see situations that were eminently transferable to a micro game. In
the second book when the good guys were in a cylindrical room with
twelve doors, only one of which led to safety, for example. Some of
these events struck me as being unpleasantly 'old hat', and to some
extent ruined what might have been an even better book.

The biggest flaw of the books, however, was that the author several
times killed off one of the main characters, only to reveal to the
reader later (sometimes MUCH later) that the character wasn't really
dead after all. This led to lots of joyful reunions which were by
and large and mercifully short. This is not to say that I don't
appreciate a good unkillable character, but one is my limit, and
subtle hints that he/she is still alive and conniving are greatly
appreciated. The character of the Emperor is a perfect example of
this, but several others seem to be brought back for no apparent
reason.

                   ******   End Spoiler   ******

The Swords trilogy is not the best of its genre, but it is still a
worthwhile read. The second book had a tendency to drag, but the
first and third really sparkled. Maybe in another two thousand years
we'll get a sequel.

                        --- JohnnyT

By the way, the respected author comparing /Empire of the East/ to
/Lord of the Rings/ was Niven.  "Give 'em hell, Larry."

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Silent Running and loss of oxygen
Date: 19 Apr 85 04:17:46 GMT

>> Removing forests will cause us to lose a lot of topsoil
>> immediately and knock great gaping holes in the ecosystem in
>> other ways I'm sure -- is there an ecologist out there who can
>> elaborate for us?
>
> Loss of the world's tropical forests would have several
> unfortunate consequences: As I recall, loss of the world's
> temperate forests would have some impact but nothing like the dire
> consequences of the rain forests' destruction. Of course, a large
> amount of the system's nutrients and organic matter is tied up in
> the temperate forest's soil, so erosion renders the land useless
> for agriculture. It's been a number of years since I studied
> environmental sciences, so I hope others can add to this or patch
> the holes in my discussion.
>
>                                           -- Bill Ingogly

Oh, thank you Bill Ingogly and the other gentle-person (whose name I
unfortunately don't have...sorry, 'bout that...) for a little
sanity. I have been reading SF-LOVERS for a long time, and have
become REALLY dismayed by the numerous statements about Silent
Running.  Now, whether you like the movie or not is a matter of
opinion, and that's half the fun of reading book and movie
reviews...BUT....

good grief, I could not believe the number of people who thought (or
seemed to think, correct me if I'm wrong...) that eliminating the
world's forests is no big shakes! Yeesh!

Certainly, the oxygen supply would continue (for a while, anyway)
from algae, but that isn't the end of the story. Plants wuz here
furst, and animals depend on them...period. It would eliminate a
chunk of the food chain, increase surface erosion, send a lotta dust
into the atmosphere, disturb the nitrogen cycle, and a trillion
other things that we as mere mortals could only guess at...

Sorry if it sounds like a flame without a warning, but seemingly
flagerant disregard for ecology flares up a strong "Watt" signal in
my brain....

there, I had my little say, now back to our regularly scheduled
programme..
                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 02:42:16 pst
From: uci-icsa!csuf!sabre@Berkeley
Subject: computers in sf

                    The CYBORG and the SORCERERS
                       By Lawrence Watt-Evans

  This is a book about IRU cyborg (Independent Reconnaissance Unit)
whose mission is to solo pilot a ship, and play the role of spy and
saboteur. He has to determine the capablility of each planet he came
across to launch an attack on Old Earth and if possible to destroy
its ability to attack. He was also to capture any new weapons he
came across, so they could be duplicated by his side back on Mars. A
computer was included on the mission to insure loyalty, and to set
off the thermite bomb at the base of his skull. This mission could
never end until his death since Earth lost the war and now there was
no one alive to give them the release or recall code. IRU 205 code
named Slant had been on this mission for 14 years. Slant then came
across a planet in which the computer had detected "gravitational
anomalies" and he had to find out why. It turns out that after the
planet had been attacked by Old Earth and bombed back from a nuclear
age to a level of bow and arrow a few people gain use of psi
abilities and become wizards.

  This book and combines science and fantasy into a very good story.

 Jeff Ellis
 ..!ucbvax!ucivax!csuf!sabre

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker)
Subject: Re: More trivia (Multivac)
Date: 19 Apr 85 18:48:55 GMT

> A little bit more trivia - Why did Asimov name his computer
> Multivac?

I always thought it was a pun on the original "UNIVAC."

Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin
{seismo!ut-sally | decvax!allegra | tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury
mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Apr 85 1140-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #130
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:

            Books - Fuller & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Powers,
            Films - Ladyhawke (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: fortune!rburns@topaz.arpa (Randyll Burns)
Subject: Bucky Fuller's books
Date: 19 Apr 85 19:16:29 GMT

I've just started rereading some of Bucky Fullers books. ie Critical
Path. I would be interested in hearing from others that have read
these books.

I am very interested especially about the economic implications of
some of his theories.

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Number of the Beast
Date: 18 Apr 85 19:10:53 GMT

>       Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.  I can
> see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should
> all remember is that the whole book was deliberitly (sp) done in a
> very tounge-i-cheek manner.  Anyone who has read alot of
> Heinlien's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the
> characters in that zoo of a last chapter.  One character there
> that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Issac Newton.
> Anybody know where this one came from??

Sir Issac Newton is from the book 'Between Planets'.  He is Venusian
native who is a member of the venusian equivalent of the royal
family.  This is one of Heinlien's 'juvenile' novels, but don't let
that stop you from reading it.  I enjoyed all of these novels,
except for 'Rocket Ship Galileo'.  One thing I wondered about the
Heinlein novel 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' (my favorite RAH
novel), is the Hazel Meade Stone in it susposed to be the same one
as the Hazel Meade Stone in 'The Rolling Stones'?

Actually I didn't think TNOTB was all that bad, though it isn't one
of my favorites. If you want to discuss a clinker, how about 'I Will
Fear no Evil'.
                                                Joel Upchurch

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!plutchak@topaz.arpa (Joel Plutchak)
Subject: Re: Sir Issac Newton and TNOTB
Date: 19 Apr 85 19:38:15 GMT

WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA writes:

>> Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.
>
>of course not.  however, TNOTB is in essence a large joke.  people
>who did not get it think it was a major waste of time and flame.
>people who did get it realize that you can't explain a joke to
>someone who didn't get it; so they have less reason to write.

   And then there are those of us who read it, "got" it, and *still*
didn't like it.  The joke was largely on us people who spent time
and money to listen in on somebody elses private joke.
          -joel

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 85 10:40:29 -0200
Subject: answer to 2 Heinlein questions

> One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir
> Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this one came from??

Well, I must admit that I never read TNOTB, but Sir Isaac Newton
sounds like an obvious reference to a dragon character in one of
Heinlein's best juveniles - "Between Planets".

> BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has
> Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some
> space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed.

The story is called "Misfit", and it appears in the collection
"Revolt in 2100". The story was written much earlier than
"Methuselah's Children", and there isn't the slightest hint in it
about the existence of the Families or about Libby's being one of
them.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

Date: Sat 20 Apr 85 18:06:06-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Andy Libby Story

The short story about Andrew "Slipstick" Libby is called "Misfit."
It can probably be most easily found in the Heinlein collection
called "The Past Through Tomorrow."  The most amusing feature of
this story, for me at least, was the scene where two major
characters are doing some calculations on a computer, and in order
to do so they have to convert all the numbers using log tables.

                                Janice

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!jerryh@Nosc>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 85 12:43:15 PST
Subject: Tim Powers' first book

...was "The Skies Discrowned" from Laser Books (number 28 in the
series), and was published in May of 1976.  Very tough to find
nowadays (came across mine purely by accident in a small-town
bookstore) but comes recommended as an authors first big break into
writing.

If I'm not mistaken, Laser was *giving* their books away at SF
Conventions...  no wonder they're out of business...

Jerry Hewett    {bang!crash!jerryh@nosc}

(btw: I think "Anubis Gates" was one of the best books I've ever
read!  I keep hoping that Powers will release a book of his poetry
one of these days [ his William Ashbless stuff is some of the best
I've ever seen ])

------------------------------

From: kallis@pen.DEC
Subject: More On LADYHAWKE
Date: 18 Apr 85 21:32:23 GMT

>                                 LADYHAWKE
>                      A film review by Mark R. Leeper
>
>     Based on boxoffice results, I may be one of the very few
>people in the world who liked DRAGONSLAYER.  I very simply thought
>that it was the best historical fantasy film that I had ever seen.
>Up to that point, I would have judged films like THE SEVENTH VOYAGE
>OF SINBAD and JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS as my favorites.  But
>DRAGONSLAYER for the first time had a plot that would have made a
>decent fantasy novel, and that was head and shoulders above
>anything similar I'd ever seen on the screen.  When I saw the
>coming attractions for LADYHAWKE, for the first time I thought a
>film was coming out that could be comparable in quality to
>DRAGONSLAYER.  Well, it didn't replace DRAGONSLAYER as my top
>historical fantasy but it easily comes in second.

     The preview was good, though originally it was >>supposed<< to
come out o/a Christmas, so the wait was long.

>     LADYHAWKE is a beautiful fantasy film set in Medieval France.
>It follows the adventures of a likeable young pickpocket played
>unexpectedly well by Matthew Broderick.  He escapes from the evil
>bishop's dungeons and is about to be re-captured when he is saved
>by the mysterious stranger Navarre (Rutger Hauer) who travels with
>a hawk on his arm.  At night man and hawk disappear and are
>replaced by a beautiful woman who is often seen in the company of a
>large and fierce wolf.  The man and woman, it seems, are lovers
>forever together but forever apart.  A curse by the jealous bishop
>turns Navarre into a wolf at night; his lover Isabeau becomes a
>hawk by day.  The story has a marvelous feel of real legend about
>it, and a haunting beauty in the way it has been visualized on the
>screen.

     It >ought< to have a " ... feel of a real legend about it ...";
it was adapted from a 13th Century tale, I understand.
     The cinematography was very good.  But the sets were, too.
Next time you see it, look at the detail in the roof shingles, etc.
More was put into it than need be.

>     Matthew Broderick's Phillipe is the main character and at the
>same time comic relief.  Broderick incessantly talks to God like
>Tevya does in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, but not always so reverently.
>He seems much better in the role than I expected.  Rutget Hauer is
>nearly perfect as the mysterious Navarre.

     Navarre mysterious?  I'd not say that, for more than the first
third of the film.  Then tragic (complete with flaw).

>And lovely Michelle Pfeiffer of SCARFACE and INTO THE NIGHT is
>terrible as Navarre's lover.  The problem is that she talks like an
>American and wears lipstick and eye-liner.  She fits into the
>Medieval setting only slightly better than Pacman.

     Can't agree.  Not perfect, but then, neither is the
always-clean- shaven knight.  The effect of better than normal
beauty is heightened.  And don't forget, she metamorphoses ....

>     And speaking of things out of place, Andrew Powell's rock
>score is totally inappropriate.  He takes scenes that otherwise
>have a beautiful period and wreaks real havoc with the spirit and
>texture of the film.  A couple more faults, if you please.  The
>camera work is usually very good, but the use of color filters,
>particularly for the sky, is overdone.  And speaking of the sky, if
>you watch the moon and know some astronomy, you will see something
>happen that is actually an impossibility.  The script is generally
>good, but too much of the legend we are simply told rather than
>shown.  Also note the anachronistic use of terrycloth.

     The rock score >>is<< jarring, but not to the exclusion of the
enjoyment of the film.  At least, it avoided cliches, like _Take Me
Out To The Ball Game_ for every baseball picture.  Handel's _Water
Music_ at slow tempo might have worked.  But note that in
_Excalibur_ they used an extremely loud Wagner (from Tristan Und
Isult, as I recall) and, of all things, _Carmina Burana_!

>     Yet with all these faults, and more, this remains one
>beautiful and enjoyable fantasy film.  The settings, the
>photography, Hauer's acting, the idea of the story are all
>marvelously realized.  If this film dies at the boxoffice the way
>DRAGONSLAYER did, perhaps modern audiences don't deserve good
>fantasy.

     The public deserves good fantasy, but it has to be promoted,
marketed, and distributed properly.  _Ladyhawke_ was short-changed
in these

     Additionally, it's worth pointing out that a bit of the
symbolism behind the myth squeezed through -- see any good
alchemical text on solar and lunar aspects/influences.  Most
appropriate for the story.

Steve

------------------------------

Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE  (!!! SPOILER !!!)
Date: 20 Apr 85 01:34:48 PST (Sat)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>       Based on boxoffice results, I may be one of the very few
>  people in the world who liked DRAGONSLAYER.  I very simply
>  thought that it was the best historical fantasy film that I had
>  ever seen.  ...  DRAGONSLAYER for the first time had a plot that
>  would have made a decent fantasy novel, and that was head and
>  shoulders above anything similar I'd ever seen on the screen.

    Well, count me as at least one other who likes DragonSlayer.
Though the plot was not exemplary to my mind, the production
certainly was.  In particular, whoever produced the dragon deserved
an award.  Whether flying, landed, near, distant, or close-up, it
looked great.  The blasts of fire washing over stone and tree (and
people) looked marvelous.  The landscapes were also magnificent, but
then, they were northern Wales and the Isle of Skye, so it's to be
expected.

> LADYHAWKE is a beautiful fantasy film set in Medieval France. . .

May I suggest an alternative classification?  I think of LadyHawke
as a love story with fantasy elements.

>       Matthew Broderick's Phillipe is the main character and at
>  the same time comic relief.  . . .  Rutget Hauer is nearly
>  perfect as the mysterious Navarre.  And lovely Michelle Pfeiffer
>  of SCARFACE and INTO THE NIGHT is terrible as Navarre's lover.
>  The problem is that she talks like an American and wears lipstick
>  and eye-liner.  . . .

   Now for a balancing opinion: I liked Broderick reasonably well,
but he unsettled me several times when he tried several times to
sound English, and finally gave up.  VERY few Americans succeed in
sounding English: Richard Gere in "Beyond the Limit", and William
Hurt in "Gorky Park", come as close as I've ever heard.

   EVERYBODY in this film (except for the bishop) sounds American.
I expected a slight German colour to Hauer's voice, but no: he just
sounded American.  (Of course, since I'm British, it may fall
differently on my ear than it does on American ears.)

    I really liked Michelle Pfeiffer, at least as much as Hauer.
Her quiet dignity and courage on awakening with a crossbow bolt in
her breast, her gentle manner with Phillipe (whom she awed), on the
one hand; and her outrage when she saw the furrier with a pelt on
his pack horse, her charge into the soaking, black forest to kill
him, and the contempt in her face as she threw her jesses at the
bishop, on the other, impressed me much more than Navarre's constant
bluffness (whether this was the character, or Hauer himself, I can't
say).  He seemed to delight in throwing away chances and rejecting
advice and aid (though I don't deny, if he was suspicious, and not
thinking clearly, he certainly had cause).

>       And speaking of things out of place, Andrew Powell's rock
>  score is totally inappropriate.  He takes scenes that otherwise
>  have a beautiful period and wreaks real havoc with the spirit and
>  texture of the film.

  I agree totally.  Fortunately, rock occupies a relatively small
part of the score, usually occurring when the bishop's men are
searching for Navarre and Philippe.  The effect is terrible when it
happens, though: a powerful, captivating mode is suddenly broken and
rendered trivial when rock breaks in.  It is, after all, essentially
trivial music.  Oh well, it could have been worse: John Williams
might have imported more of Star Wars, as he did with Raiders, and
E.T., and who knows what else.

>  . . . And speaking of the sky, if you watch the moon and know
>  some astronomy, you will see something happen that is actually an
>  impossibility.

  As opposed to a man's turning into a wolf, and a woman's becoming
a hawk? :-) Seriously, though, I don't really worry about that sort
of thing.  How about the broad, 20th century roads winding about the
hills in the distance behind Imperius' castle?  I suspect the
relevant Ministry of Transport was unwilling to have its roads
muddied and narrowed just for the sake of a film.  And as long as
shooting takes much longer than the time depicted in the film, the
moon will appear out of phase in the film.  Or did you have
something else in mind?

>       Yet with all these faults, and more, this remains one
>  beautiful and enjoyable fantasy film.  The settings, the
>  photography, Hauer's acting, the idea of the story are all
>  marvelously realized.

   I can't resist.  To my mind, the most beautiful and moving scene
of the film: the four of them (Phillipe, Imperius, Isabeau, and
Navarre in wolf form) had spent the night in a trench below the
snow.  Isabeau and Phillipe were awake and out as the sun was coming
up.  Isabeau was watching Navarre, and Phillipe, from a distance,
was watching them both.  As the light grew stronger, Navarre
transformed.  He was lying with his back to Isabeau, unaware that
she hadn't transformed, and she was reaching for him, but not close
enough to touch.  He turned over, and saw her, with the light strong
behind her, streaming through her fingers.  He was astonished, and
you had to wonder: would she be spared the transformation this time?
He started to reach for her --- and she transformed.  He threw back
his head, slammed his fists in the snow, and roared in pain.
Unnoticed, Phillipe turned away, his face wet with tears.  That
scene has stayed with me as nothing else in the film did.

>  If this film dies at the boxoffice the way DRAGONSLAYER did,
>  perhaps modern audiences don't deserve good fantasy.

   Perhaps they don't.  Personally, I am waiting for somebody to do
a film of Lord of the Rings which really does justice to the book
(unlike Bakshi, who virtually threw the book away).  I am, of
course, prepared to wait a good, long time.  But if and when it
comes, if it is not acclaimed at the box office, then I will say
that modern audiences most definitely do not deserve good fantasy.

                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 85 0856-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #131
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:

            Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs),
            Comics - Shatter,
            Films - Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & 
                    Silent Running & Mad Max III (2 msgs) & 
                    The Bride Of Frankenstein & Ladyhawke & 
                    Showscan & High Crusade & Legend

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stl!dww@topaz.arpa (David Wright)
Subject: Re: NofTheBeast
Date: 20 Apr 85 11:07:43 GMT
Reply-to: dww@stl.UUCP (David Wright)

Actually I enjoyed it (except for the ending), once I'd accepted
that it was not up to the usual standard - and far too long for it's
content.  But it's not what one expects of a book of that size - I
think it should be a comic book, with a lowish-budget cartoon film
to match.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 85 22:32 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Robert A. Heinlein

Locus #291 reports that RAH has sold The Cat who walks through
Walls: A Comedy of Manners to Berkley and Putnam jointly for over
$1M.  Total may reach $2m with foreign sales.

It should come to 400 pages, and is set on the Luna of "The Moon is
a Harsh Mistress".  There are hints about Lazarus Long also.

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Re: Sir Issac Newton and TNOTB
Date: 20 Apr 85 19:09:28 GMT

WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA writes:
>of course not.  however, TNOTB is in essence a large joke.  people
>who did not get it think it was a major waste of time and flame.
>people who did get it realize that you can't explain a joke to
>someone who didn't get it; so they have less reason to write.

Uhm..RAH takes himself too seriously to be able to write a sardonic
novel.. It takes somebody like LEM to write the stuff.  If we missed
something in TNOTB, ah well.. Perhaps somebody will explain what
appears to be utter trash.. Than, I will volunteer to explain the
literary qualities of "The National Enquirer" :-).

Oz      (wizard of something or another, no doubt..)
        Electric: {ihnp4 | allegra | decvax ..}!utzoo!yetti!oz
        Bitnet:   Oz@yuleo

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 1985  16:36 EST (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1  223-7046)
Subject: Katherine Kurtz

Supposedly there will be as many more Deryni stories as there are
plot lines to wrap up.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 85 23:15 EST
From: sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Re:  Katherine Kurtz

> Does anyone know when "Bishop's Heir" will be coming out in a
> paperback edition?

I don't know the precise date, but since it came out in hardcover
last October, and Del Rey tends to release pbs 11-12 months after
the hardcover release, a pretty fair guess would be late August or
September of this year.

> Also - I was a little disappointed when the Camber triology ended
> on such an abrupt note.  It almost seemed as if the author
> suddenly decided that she had written enough and had better end
> things quickly.  Since I enjoyed the series so much ( and the
> subsequent Deryni series), I'm hoping that she will wrap up all of
> the loose ends.  Does anyone know if there are any more Deryni
> books in the works?

I can't agree that the Camber trilogy ended abruptly.  Practically
everyone had died, and the rest were going into hiding.  If
anything, I can't imagine the trilogy going on further than it did.
Bad enough that the appendices had been showing that Evaine would
die in the year that the trilogy ended; actually reading her death
would have been too much.  The political loose ends would also take
far too many years (Gwynedd time) to wrap up neatly, and the book
was overlong as it was.

As for forthcoming books, Katherine has any number in the works; the
problem is that she is not a fast writer, and can think up books
faster than she can write them.

A collection of Deryni short stories will be released this summer.
Some of the stories will be reprinted from other sources -- for
example, "Swords Against the Marluk" from FLASHING SWORDS #4 and
"Bethane" from HECATE'S CAULDRON -- plus enough new stories to fill
out the collection page count.

As for other Deryni books planned: THE KING'S JUSTICE (late this
year early next), and THE QUEST FOR SAINT CAMBER (in progress) will
finish out the current trilogy.  A trilogy set during the last years
of Donal's/first years of Brion's reign, focusing on Morgan and his
parents and relatives, legal and otherwise.  (The first book ends
with Morgan's birth; the third includes the events in "Swords
Against the Marluk", when Brion gains the Haldane birthright and
slays the Marluk.)  Another book (which may grow into more) has a
working title of THE YEAR OF KING JAVAN, which would set it 3-4
years after the end of CAMBER THE HERETIC.  A possible novel would
be set back in Deryni pre-history with Orin, who wrote the Protocols
of Orin that were the basis of so much Deryni magic used in the
Camber trilogy.

I gather that Katherine is also thinking of doing a sequel to her
WWII occult novel, LAMMAS NIGHT, set in the present day.  Whether
her writing picks up or slows down after her move to Ireland I can't
guess, nor how her recent marriage will affect matters.  In any
case, I'm looking forward to the collection and the second book in
the trilogy in the months ahead.
                                    Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Sat 20 Apr 85 13:54:25-PST
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Computerized Comic: SHATTER

> From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@Xerox.ARPA>
> Dan didn't mention that the first issue of "Shatter" is as the
> back-up story of First Comics' "Jon Sable Freelance" (June issue,
> I believe).

Actually, /SHATTER/ first appeared in it's own (one-shot) book, with
the story then continued in JSF.  The black and white art is the
same (all done on a Mac) but the coloring is dramatically different
than that appearing in JSF.

> I was unimpressed with Shatter and think that it must be it could
> be done a lot better, both story wise and art wise.

I too am not terribly impressed by /SHATTER/.  But I am /very/
impressed with the patience the artist must have to have actually
drawn all that stuff on a Mac!  If you haven't seen it, you should
at least try and find a copy and look at it.

------------------------------

From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes
Date: 20 Apr 85 01:09:41 GMT

> I can't believe this cropped up on a worst sf movie list again.
> It was a JOKE, people -- a hack on the typical monster movie.
> Come on, already.  It wasn't the funniest movie ever made, but it
> did have its moments.

As I understand it there are TWO "Attack of the Killer Tomatos"
movies; one made in the fifties which was more or less serious (so I
hear--I've never seen it), and one made during the seventies which
was definitely parody.  Probably the one being nominated was the
older one.
                                                --pH

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 85 20:17:06 EST
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: Silent Running again

Did you guys actually see this movie?  The forests needed to be
cared for.  Remember how he spent a lot of time teaching the only
undamaged 'droid how to care for the forest?

Go ahead and talk about how the movie abused my emotions or how bad
the acting was or how poor the effects were (well, I guess most
people agree that the effects were pretty good, since that's what
started this), but I wish you'd stop claiming illogic over points
that were fully explained by the film.  I don't think there's
anything in this film that is just incredible.  Maybe the Earth
couldn't survive such an ecological change, but I wouldn't be
surprised if it did.  One scenario I can imagine is that buildings
are required to have algae ponds built into N% of the external wall
space.  There's a lot of more ridiculous speculation in most highly
acclaimed SF.  Why are you guys picking on this poor movie?

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Mad Max III
Date: 18 Apr 85 16:41:13 GMT

> From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen)
> Could someone out there give me some help?  I enjoyed both "Mad
> Max" and "The Road Warrior".  Now, there's going to be a third
> movie.  Would someone please tell me the correct title?  I've
> heard that it's going to be "Mad Max III" and also "Road Warrior
> II".  What's the deal?

I believe it's going to be called Mad Max III in Australia but the
working title is THUNDERDOME.  The THUNDERDOME is a place that is
key to the story - something like "Two will enter and one will
leave".  Tina Turner is also in it.

Should be interesting.

Gary

------------------------------

From: watarts!mupmalis@topaz.arpa (mike upmalis)
Subject: Re: Mad Max III
Date: 18 Apr 85 08:41:07 GMT

skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA writes:
>Could someone out there give me some help?  I enjoyed both "Mad
>Max" and "The Road Warrior".  Now, there's going to be a third
>movie.  Would someone please tell me the correct title?  I've heard
>that it's going to be "Mad Max III" and also "Road Warrior II".
>What's the deal?

Both.

In the states, it will be Road Warrior II, under the Thunderdome
(replace under at will.)  It stems from the fact that to most of the
world this is the third movie, to most of the United States who
didn't get to see Mad Max, they tie the movie to the second one...

Mike Upmalis    (mupmalis@watarts)<University of Waterloo>

------------------------------

From: tymix!figmo@topaz.arpa (Lynn Gold)
Subject: Re: Movies coming out
Date: 16 Apr 85 02:37:46 GMT

> Sci fi films to be released this summer; The Bride of Frankenstein
> (Sting? as the mad young doctor?)

I'm not sure whether Sting is playing the Doctor or the monster
himself, but he's in the movie.  Jennifer Beals (yes, the same one
who didn't do her own dancing in "Flashdance") plays the bride.
REALLY.

--Lynn Gold
...tymix!figmo

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE
Date: 20 Apr 85 01:30:42 GMT

dwight@timeinc.UUCP (Dwight Ernest) writes:
>And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black
>stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other
>cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to
>someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting
>decision when they found that horse.

The horse apparently caused an incredible amount of trouble.  It was
one of those animals that likes its trainer but hates everyone else.
Rutger Hauer and Matthew Broderick could count on it trying to bite
them whenever they were mounted on it.  It did look good, though.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!acsgjjp@topaz.arpa (Jim Poltrone)
Subject: Re: Trumbull (Specifically: What IS Showscan?)
Date: 20 Apr 85 19:55:51 GMT

> The Showscan movie in question IS being shown at Tsukuba Expo '85,
> in the Toshiba corporate pavillion.  I got a chance to see it
> while we were setting up our exhibit in the US pavillion.  The
> Showscan process is as impressive as ever.

Does anyone know the exact specification of Showscan?  I heard that
it involves filming and projecting the film at twice the normal
speed, for a greater impact on the audience, but I'm not absolutely
sure.

Please mail me any more info you might have; if there is a demand I
will summarize and post at a later date.

(BTW, if anyone does happen to go to Tsukuba, check out the Computer
Music booth, set up by Lejaren Hiller, Charles Ames, Robert Franki,
and Robert Coggeshall (all from SUNY/Buffalo).  More on this later
in net.music.synth.)  -

Jim Poltrone  (a/k/a Poltr1, the Last of the Raster Blasters)
uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!acsgjjp
ARPAnet, CSnet: acsgjjp%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY
BITNET:  ACSGJJP@SUNYABVA

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: High Crusade
Date: 18 Apr 85 16:32:04 GMT

Rumor has it that a movie is in the works.  It's called High Crusade
(based on the book?) and will star (get this) Peter O'toole!

A friend of mine is negotiating for some SFX work on it.

- Just a rumor.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 1985 00:32-PST
Subject: LEGEND, a film review
From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA

LEGEND - a film by Ridley Scott

     *** Probably a Spoiler, but can you Spoil the Spoiled? ***

I had high hopes when I heard this was a film by Ridley Scott.  In
his previous work, notably Alien and Blade Runner he has performed
wonders in realizing milieu, while the Duelist is the best film on
obsession I have ever seen.  LEGEND performs well on the first
count, but is lamentable for its weakness in plot and character.

LEGEND is a FANTASY/adventure film with the fantasy written large.
I saw it at the Director's Guild Theater in Hollywood at one of
those advance screenings where they ask you to fill out
questionnaires before and after the film (presumably, so they can
patch and polish for the final release - it may even be released
under another name).  I'm afraid it won't help, though, because it
is severely flawed in plot and casting.  It's really a shame, too,
because parts of it are visually stunning, some of it reminding me
of the niftier moments in Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast.  Unlike
the latter, Legend never escapes the sappy adolescent backwash of
its basic sentiments (which appear to be directed towards the overly
romantic) to become truly magical.

The plot, if you can call it that, follows around assorted goblins,
who at the devil's bidding are out to kill the last two unicorns in
the forest.  The good guys, consisting of a forest sprite, a couple
of bumbling leprechauns, a sexually frustrated tinkerbell, and Jack
(Tim (tom?) Cruise - who is really awful) are out to stop them, as
well as to try to save a kidnapped princess.  By the end of the film
much of the audience was chuckling at the films extreme
sentimentality.  Enough said.

But, to concentrate on its good points: The realization of the
various demons and goblins was very impressive, as was the big D
himself.  Tim Curry plays the devil, although it's hard to recoginze
him under what must be at least 10 pounds of facial makeup. He is
the classic red-skinned hooved monster with horns.  He does a lot
of sneering and leering, he is the devil after all, and manages the
best bit of acting in the film.  The minor goblins all look like
they just walked out of a Durer print.  The good guys are less
impressive, although the leprechauns are faithful copies of the
classic depiction.  I was also very impressed by much of the camera
work.  Some of the scenes in the forest have an otherworldly quality
that I've never seen in any other film.  It's really too bad the
story and much of the acting isn't up to the technical effects of
the film.  (There were, admittedly, some howlers; a horse trainer
was visible in several scenes, and a ring, which figures prominently
in the story betrays its contemporary origins.)  The film could also
be paced better, but it's hard to see how a better cut could improve
the story line.

Still, if you can tolerate the sophomoric plot, you might want to
see this film for the bad guys and some of the forest scenes.

        mark

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Apr 85 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #132
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:

         Books - Blish & Kurtz & L. Neil Smith  (2 msgs) &
                 A Request Answered & Unknown Worlds (2 msgs) &
                 Title Request & Tile Request Answered,
         Films - Cat's Eye & Attack of the Killer Tomatoes &
                 Wizards & Ladyhawke,
         Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust)
Date: 15 Apr 85 17:43:30 GMT

> Suppose you had a world full of creatures who had no morality at
> all.  What would they (and their society) be like?

I recommend James Blish's A CASE OF CONCIENCE, if you haven't read
it.  An excellent treatment of (among other things) exactly this
point.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 15:54 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #125

Don't know about the paper back edition but recently read the SF
Book club version and it says it is the beginning of the story of
King Kelson's problems....  I think Bishop's Heir is the beginning
of a new trilogy.  Sorry if this is a repeat.  I've been traveling
again and am behind in my mail!  --Roz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 13:23:26 pst
From: malloy@nprdc (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Book Request

     The novel 'Their Majesty's Bucketeers' by L. Neil Smith is a
book essentially completely about an alien species (there is a short
narrative preface tying it into his North American Confederacy
novels that can easily be ignored, which bears no connection to the
events in the book) that I recommend highly. The lamviin of Sodde
Lydfe are an interestingly alien race.

        Sean Malloy

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 22 Apr 1985 08:38:33-PST
From: lionel%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Totally alien stories

> From: Catherine Cunningham <ccunning@BBNCCT.ARPA>
> I just finished Brunner's "The Crucible of Time" and really
> enjoyed the idea of a book totally about an "alien" society.  Can
> anyone give me pointers to any other novels/short stories in which
> there is no human presence?

A few years ago, someone in this very digest recommended L. Neil
Smith's "Their Majesties' Bucketeers", and I am more than happy to
repeat the favor.  It may be that this doesn't totally satisfy your
requirements, as the prologue is an observation by a human, but the
rest of the book is devoid of humans.  It is essentially a Sherlock
Holmes and Dr. Watson story with Holmes and Watson as aliens, and
the culture is not all that much different from ours, but what the
heck - it's fun.

Smith is a well-known Libertarian, and his writings reflect this
bent.  TMB is, in some aspects, a light satire of our society, but
this doesn't get in the way.  The paperback is published by
Ballantine/Del Rey.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 14:14 EST
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..."
To: pegasus!naiman@TOPAZ.ARPA (Ephrayim J. Naiman)

Ephrayim asked about a book in which the character keep reliving the
same day over.  I recall reading this book a few years ago, and I
think it is James P.  Hogan's "Twice Upon a Time".  I thought it was
great; I've liked everything of Hogan's (even Code of the Lifemaker)
so far (he's the only author of whom I've read all published
novels).  Does anyone know if he has any short works?
                                        barmar

------------------------------

From: kallis@pen.DEC
Subject: Answering questions on UNKNON WORLDS
Date: 18 Apr 85 14:28:56 GMT

I have received inquiries concerning my last net message, saying ap-
proximately, "I'm new at this: what's _Unknown Worlds_?"

        _Unknown Words_ was one of the two finest fantasy magazines
published (_Weird Tales_ being the other).  It was developed by John
W. Campbell, Jr., as a companion magazine to Astounding/Analog.  It
had superb stories in it, including _Darker Than You Think_, "A
Gnome There Was," "Trouble With Water," and "The Compleat Werewolf."

The paper sortage in World War II caused it to cease publication.

The current Analog editor would like to bring it back; the fantasies
it would attract would be superior, but the publisher needs
convincing.

If you need convincing, go to a used magazine shop and look at an
issue (it was originally _Unknown_, then _Unknown Worlds_).  If
you're interested in having it back, wrote Stanley Svhmidt and ask
your non-net friends to do so too.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Answering questions on UNKNON WORLDS
Date: 21 Apr 85 22:00:59 GMT

> If you need convincing, go to a used magazine shop and look at an
> issue (it was originally _Unknown_, then _Unknown Worlds_).  If
> you're interested in having it back, wrote Stanley Svhmidt and ask
> your non-net friends to do so too.

        Good luck finding a copy of it, and if you do, be prepared
to pay $10-25 dollars for it, depending on condition and
gouge-factor. They're quite rare.
        If anyone has issues for less than $10, get in touch with
me!  I collect 'em.

                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@topaz.arpa (Rick Heli)
Subject: Book Title Please?
Date: 19 Apr 85 03:30:43 GMT

Does anyone remember a book about a world's fair on a space station
in the 1990's?  I read it about 10 years ago & have never been able
to find it again.  I want to say it was by Silverberg, but I can't
say for sure.

------------------------------

From: panda!jpo@topaz.arpa (Joseph O'Connor)
Subject: Re: Book Title Please?
Date: 22 Apr 85 13:44:56 GMT

> Does anyone remember a book about a world's fair on a space
> station in the 1990's?  I read it about 10 years ago & have never
> been able to find it again.  I want to say it was by Silverberg,
> but I can't say for sure.

If you're talking about a world's fair with a trip to Pluto under
near constant acceleration.  Then it is a book by Robert Silverberg
called "World's Fair 1985".  I might have the year wrong.  This is
one of the first Sci-Fi books I got out of the large Sci-Fi section
at the Cambridge public library and it still is one of my favorites.

                jpo@GENRAD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 11:36 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: _Cat's_Eye_

I just saw Stephan King's new movie, _Cat's_Eye_ and loved it.  I
just have to rave a bit about it.  It's not horror, though it does
have the sense of the macabre that we have come to know and love.
Needless to say, there is a cat in it, and that is what ties the 3
stories together.  The first story I seem to remember from reading
somewhere, perhaps in _Night_Shift_ but my copy seems to have gone
for a walk.  It's about a smoking clinic that works.  The second
story is about a mafioso trying to get revenge on his wife and her
boyfriend.  It's an entertaining affair about gambling.  The last
story is by far the best, since it is the battle between that
critter in the ad and our hero the cat.  It also has the most of
Drew Dennismore, although she appears in all the stories.  I think
the critter's jester hat was a nice touch.  I loved the bells.

The only thing missing was a cameo from Steve himself.  It had a car
with an "I am Christine" bumper sticker, a man watching
_The_Dead_Zone_ on TV, and his wife reading _Pet_Semetary_.  There
were probably some I missed too.  Steve, if you're out there, start
a new cameo tradition, please.  You're too corny not to.

All in all, the movie took my breath away.  I recommend it highly.

                                                Jon Pugh
                                                PUGH%E@LLL-MFE.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 16:15 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #125

Yup!  I saw both AotKT and 'High Anxiety' in the same year on
Showtime.  Prior to seeing those movies, I had never enjoyed "slap
stick comedy"....But AotKT was to BEM-SF movies as HA was to
Hitchcock mysteries/thrillers!  From that point of view I loved them
both!  In fact, I watched both as often and as much as my schedule
would allow--even if only for 15-20 minutes (when it was on
Showtime).  I don't think I would run out and BUY the video tapes
(even if they were avail!), but I still laugh (NOT chuckle!) when I
think of the theme song from AotKT!  --Roz

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 1985 17:35 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
Subject: WIZARDS

I enjoyed WIZARDS. Bakshi is a good storyteller, and I remember
being thoroughly entertained. The animation was, of course, not up
to what Disney or even Warner Bros. used to crank out, but at the
time of release Bakshi was probably doing the best animation
(measured in quality/kilobucks/minute) of anyone in the business.

HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a
character created by the late Vaughn Bode. Bode was probably best
known for a delightfully disgusting creature named "Cheech Wizard"
that was published regularly in the early '70s in the National
Lampoon, until Bode's unfortunate demise.

Bode's best work was being published in the underground comix of
that time. His most haunting character, Cobalt-60 (sound familiar
already ?), was a mutant humanoid who spent most of his time hunting
down and killing non-mutant humanoids, in an attempt to establish
his own kind as "normal" and to punish the humans for creating a
radioactive wasteland. Bakshi's NECRON-90 was almost identical in
form to Cobalt-60, right down to the beast they rode into battle.
The only difference to me was that NECRON-90 decided to stop and
smell the roses, and Cobalt-60 would have blasted them with never a
second thought.

It was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and I
suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it (I never was aware of
any legal action). Stealing ideas from dead artists seems ghoulish
to me, and my personal respect for Bakshi dropped quite a bit.
(Insert here the usual disclaimer about sketchy memories of things
and people in past decades.)

                        Greg Goodknight <good@ACC.ARPA>
                        Hardware Bozo

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 85 12:19:37 EST (Monday)
Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE
From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@Xerox.ARPA>

I very heartily second everything in Dwight Ernest's review, plus
would like to add a few comments of my own.

In regard to Michelle Pfeiffer <<The makeup may have been a strong
contributory factor, also>> to not thinking she looked the part.

Did you happen to notice her hair?? I thought that this was an
excellent touch.  It bothered me that she had chopped hair,
especially for the period, then I realized -- travelling only at
night, never knowing where she was going to wake up, but mostly away
from civilisation, she would soon chop off her hair, by herself -
with her dagger, to make it easier to take care of.  I thought this
was an excellent touch, and nicely understated.

>>Your review was more than just a mild spoiler, incidentally--
>>perhaps I'm slow, but one of the most marvelous parts of the film
>>was in slowly making the connection between the hawk and Isabeau,
>>and between the man and the wolf.  I'm glad I didn't know about
>>that before I saw it.

>By the time I saw the film I had heard the premise in presentations
>at science fiction conventions, in ads, on TV's At The Movies, in a
>presentation at a science fiction society by Joan Vinge who is
>writing the novel, etc.  Also I contend it is almost impossible to
>review the film without giving that much away.

I'm very sorry you had already heard, and I noticed that every
review I saw (luckily after I saw the film) gave away the secret.
Its too bad -- a lot of enjoyment of the film from figuring this
out.  I totally disagree that you can't review this film without
giving it away.  Do people always give away the main plot device
when reviewing mysteries??  Don't they find ways around it?

>>the scene at the end is perhaps one of the most romantic and
>>delightful scenes ever filmed, although it's simple.

>I actually thought this scene was a bit drawn out and for reasons I
>won't mention here, unrealistic.

I think that this scene (well, admittedly only the two main people,
but the rest were in a bit of a shock, and may have known the full
story....) was very realistic.  Think about the times invoved here.
I'm trying not to make this a spoiler, but my G'd, if I had been
through what they had,I would have done exactly that and there.  I
would not just calmly walk away to a nice private, more appropriate
place like some movies have them do.

Admittedly, this is not a perfect movie -- there are stereotypical
characters, Mathew Broderick's on-again-off-again accent bothered me
the first time I saw it.  But I just went to see it again (after
reading your review and three bad reviews in papers and magazines)
and I still think that this is one of the best fantasy/love stories
(my favorite genre) I've seen in awhile.  I hope people go
themselves to make up your mind -- I don't think yuo'll be
disappointed.

~Brenda

PS I took my boyfriend this time -- He introduced me to SF (has been
reading it all his life), who likes to play D&D and read some
fantasy (Zelazny's Dilvish, Niven's warlock, etc) but is not into
love stories or all the fantasy I am into and he liked it.  Also,
for a very realistic, scientific, strong control over his emotions
kind of guy, there were tears in his eyes at a certain sunrise
scene.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 20 Apr 85 18:08:11-EST
From: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Multivac

According to Asimov, he named his computer Multivac because he
misunderstood "Univac" to mean "one vacuum tube" or something like
that.  So multiply it to get Multivac.  Later on, when he realized
his mistake, he decided the "ac" ending meant "analog computer,"
whence "Cosmic AC."
                                Janice

------------------------------

From: utflis!lgondor@topaz.arpa (Les Gondor)
Subject: Re: Computers in SF
Date: 19 Apr 85 13:35:14 GMT

How about the computers in Alexis Gilliland's Rosinante novels?
It's interesting that these machines became 'persons' through
legally incorporating themselves.  As for their names, Corporate
Skaskash ranks among the more unusual names given to machines.

The other computers mentioned modeled their behaviour and appearance
on communications screens on humans: Coroporates Susan Brown,
William Hulvey and Forziati.


Les Gondor, U of Toronto
{cornell,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,decvax!utzoo}
!utcsri![utflis!]lgondor
CSNET: lgondor@toronto          ARPA: lgondor%Toronto@CSNet-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 1985  15:11 EST (Mon)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E.,   
To:   Boelke)
Subject: More trivia (Multivac)

> From: brendan%gigi.DEC at decwrl.ARPA

>A little bit more trivia - Why did Asimov name his computer
>Multivac?

Because it had so many vacuum tubes of course.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Apr 85 1046-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #133
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Apr 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:

     Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Powers & Saberhagen (2 msgs) &
             Wilhelm & Juvenile Books (2 msgs),
     Films - Clan of the Cave Bear & Ladyhawke (2 msgs) &
             Sting & High Crusade,
     Miscellaneous - Bookstore Addresses (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday, 22 Apr 1985 09:07:18-PST
From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andy V)
Subject: Sir Isaac Newton, Dragon and Andrew Jackson Libby

> From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker)
>         Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB?  I hope not.  I can
> see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should
> all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a
> very tongue-in-cheek manner.  Anyone who has read a lot of
> Heinlein's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the
> characters in that zoo of a last chapter.  One character there
> that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton.
> Anybody know where this one came from??

I also enjoyed @i(The Number of the Beast), but the ending did not
match the beginning.  Whatever happened to all those "black hats"?

Sir Isaac Newton comes from @i(Between Planets), a Heinlein juvenile
about revolution on Venus.  It is not in my library (sigh), so I
can't give you publishing data.

> From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
>
> BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has
> Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some
> space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed.

This story is "Misfit" and is only 17 pages long.  Quite enjoyable,
but really only a tease.  (Give me more!)  It is in @i(Revolt in
2100) (Signet, 1954) which includes "If this goes on--" and
"Coventry" also.  The copyright page lists '54 -- R.A.H. and '39,'40
-- Street & Smith Publications, from which I guess it appeared in
@i(Astounding)

It is also likely to be in the large @i(Future History) book, as
R.A.H.  describes @i(Revolt in 2100) as "volume 3" of a future
history series (Vol 1: The Man Who Sold the Moon; Vol 2: The Green
Hills of Earth).

Andy V

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 85 19:26 PST
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY

The thing that I found most annoying about FRIDAY was that it seemed
as thought Heinlein had an idea for a novel, and wrote it, but he
couldn't end the story well. Then he remembered this little short
story idea that he couldn't sell (for good reason) so he changed the
short story around a bit and made it into the ending for the novel.

I am not saying that this was how it really happened, just that this
is how I imagined it happening after reading the book! Did anyone
else notice the huge discontinuity?

>>Dave

PS I thought TNotB was an interesting change of pace and a fun read,
though hardly worth the attention it has been getting lately.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 21:53:17 pst
From: ewok%ucbingres@Berkeley (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: even more NotB

        ok for the few of us who will admit to liking this book (my
personal opinion is that it was a terrible book but i loved it
anyway) how about compiling a list of of all literary? characters
who appeared in the book, and where they originally appeared. i know
i have caught most of them, but not all....mail to me and i will
post in a while....
                        cheers!
                                -ewok

------------------------------

Date: Sun 21 Apr 85 22:14:14-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Tim Powers

[I wish people would read all of the SF-Lovers.....]

As I've mentioned before, Powers wrote two (or three, if you count
Drawing of the Dark) "lost" books.  "Epitaph in Rust" is set in a
similar universe to "Dinner...," but not identical: it has a strong
Church, android breweries, etc.  "The Skys Discrowned" is about a
young man missing an ear who saves a planet.  The first FKFreas art
book has its cover work.

Both are "Laser Books," Roger Elwood's attempt at turning SF into a
packaged series like the Harlequin romances (Laser was financed by
H.).  This may account for their scarcity -- the Lasers were heavily
returned, and many used bookstores won't carry anything from Elwood.

Reissues of these would not be too embarrassing to Powers, but they
really aren't that good.  Pretty fluffy.

MITSFS has them in Special Reserve (Paperback), so they must be
rare.
                        wz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 20:34:45 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Saberhagen

I was able to finish Empire of the East, but just barely.  I found
the plot boring and the language unimaginative and plodding.  In
contrast, I like his vampire stories a lot.  His Berserker stories
are quite good too.

-s

------------------------------

Date: Mon 22 Apr 85 23:19:47-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: saberhagen's Empire and Swords

I thought Empire of the East, was pretty good, but just that. The
Swords series was really pretty bad. It seemed to drag on forever.

I didn't like Saberhagen's gods or his humans very much, but I did
rather like the transmogrified dog (what was his name, Draffut?)

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 02:50:23 MST
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Kate Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS

WELCOME, CHAOS (Berkley, 1985, 297pp.) is the most fun novel I've
read by Kate Wilhelm since the excellent WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS
SANG, which won the Hugo award for 1976.  I won't flatly say 'the
best', because Wilhelm has written so many different kinds of books
that I don't want to make that kind of a judgment.  But this is one
of those stories I just love to come across -- a novel that works on
many levels, that grabs you with page-turning suspense at the same
time that it tickles you with interesting ideas.

Since WELCOME, CHAOS is (at one level) a suspense novel, I don't
want to spoil it by explaining too much of the story; but I will say
that the two main characters are a woman named Lyle Taney, an
associate professor of history who has published a popular book on
hawks (of all things), and a mysterious man named Hugh Lasater who
arrives unexpectedly in Lyle's life with a curious assignment: when
she goes to Oregon to research her next book, on eagles, he wants
her to spy on someone...  Who does Lasater work for?  What does he
want?  That would be telling, but I am willing to say that the novel
works its way up from suspense at the detective-novel level to an
amazing climax where literally billions of lives are at stake.  The
characters are mostly well-drawn and memorable; I have my usual
complaint that the good guys seem unbelievably calm, rational and
nice, but Wilhelm makes up for it with a solid, credible portrayal
of the ambiguous enemies.  The last hundred pages left me
sweaty-palmed, and my only disappointment was that the book had to
end at all.

A few warnings: one element among the bad guys in the novel is an
American administration which looks suspiciously like the current
one, and you may find your politics clashing with Wilhelm's (mine
didn't -- I find her description of world tensions at the breaking
point all too plausible).  Also, the blurbs and quotes from reviews
on the cover of this edition give part of the game away; if you
dislike spoilers you should at all costs avoid reading the cover
material.  Fortunately I had read Wilhelm's story 'The Winter Beach'
in her collection LISTEN, LISTEN and thus the cover didn't reveal
anything.

This book is so well plotted that I'd almost suspect that Damon
Knight, an advocate of the tight plot, had an influence on it...
It's sort of a pity that Knight's latest novel, CV, doesn't have
more of a Wilhelm influence in it, or so it seems to me.  Maybe they
should collaborate?  :-)

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: hpfclp!fritz@topaz.arpa (fritz)
Subject: Looking for obscure juveniles
Date: 16 Apr 85 02:52:00 GMT

It's worked for other people, so what the heck...

Out of perverse curiosity, I'd like to find the names & authors of
the first two science-fiction ("juvenile sci-fi" is probably closer)
books I ever read, in 3rd and 4th grade.

The first was a rather slim tome.  I only remember two things about
it: 1) the cover was hot pink, and 2) one scene in the story: the
hero[ine?]  is, I believe, on some foreign planet, talking to the
[military?] leader of the natives.  They are in a tizzy because of
something they call "The Seed".  "The Seed?" asks our hero/ine,
"What can be so dangerous about a seed?"  ...and you turn the page,
which shows a 2-page illustration of The Seed -- which makes the
local mountain range look like pebbles.  It's got some kind of
tendrils latched into the mountains, and I forget what happens from
there.

The second one might have been called "Rusty's Spaceship".  It's a
thoroughly silly story about some boys who build a play spaceship
out of wood, and a very silly alien who needs a spaceship to get
back to his home.  Only he can't remember where it is.  So he tacks
this magical aluminum foil (one half of his Emperor's spaceship,
which he had been sent to find?) onto the front of the ship, and
they go cruising around the solar system trying to figure out where
our friendly ET came from.  Magic pills take care of little problems
like vacuum decompression, oxygen & food starvation, etc.

Anybody recognize these gems?  Please MAIL any responses (we don't
need a repeat of the "Mindkiller" avalanche, although I doubt as
many people will recognize these books!).

Thanks,

Gary Fritz
Hewlett Packard
Ft Collins, CO
{ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Looking for obscure juveniles
Date: 19 Apr 85 21:53:37 GMT

> Out of perverse curiosity, I'd like to find the names & authors of
> the first two science-fiction ("juvenile sci-fi" is probably
> closer) books I ever read, in 3rd and 4th grade.
>
> Gary Fritz {ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz

How about a short story called The House.  It is about a futuristic
house on the outskirts of a city that has been recently nuked.  One
of the things I remember was the little robotic mice that tried to
keep the inside of the house clean as it started to fall apart.  (no
mention of where it got it's power from...)

If you have ever read it - I'd love to find it again.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 85 9:31:14-EST (Mon)
From: Susan Tabron <stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa>
Subject: Jean Auel

Does anyone know when the movie _Clan_of_the_Cave_Bear is coming
out?  I saw mention of it earlier in the year in this list and have
been looking forward to it.

Second, how about the 3rd book in the series?  Isn't it due pretty
soon, too?
                                :Sue:

------------------------------

From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith)
Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE
Date: 22 Apr 85 16:23:36 GMT

> And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black
> stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other
> cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to
> someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting
> decision when they found that horse.

Yes, the stallion in LadyHawke IS amazing.  He cantors... he
gallops.... he does EVERYTHING right and with complete precision.
And he doesn't do anything when he isn't supposed to.

I'm still trying to figure out what breed of horse he is!  Any clues
here?  He's far too large and muscular for an arabian.

UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root      - Lord Frith
ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO

------------------------------

From: watarts!mupmalis@topaz.arpa (mike upmalis)
Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE
Date: 23 Apr 85 03:18:15 GMT

Ladyhawke! Did you see it? I'm still in shock over the fact that
people actually applauded at the conclusion of the film.  Ladyhawke
is definitely a "B" grade movie.  Isabeau and the Mouse are both too
bloody american to be fantasy characters.  There was no depth to the
film.  It is a film meant to satisfy the lowest common denominators
in the viewing audience, which it does, but it left me high and dry.
I like to be entranced when I watch a movie, but Ladyhawke just
didn't have the enchantment necessary.  Oh by the way, the bad guy
gets skewered in the end.  Big Surprise!

Mark Taylor broadcasting from Elba.....

Mike Upmalis    (mupmalis@watarts)<University of Waterloo>

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Movies coming out
Date: 20 Apr 85 22:34:35 GMT

figmo@tymix.UUCP (Lynn Gold) writes:
>I'm not sure whether Sting is playing the Doctor or the monster
>himself, but he's in the movie.

Sting plays the doctor, not the monster.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!gvg@topaz.arpa (gvg)
Subject: Re: High Crusade
Date: 13 Apr 85 21:34:00 GMT

> Rumor has it that a movie is in the works.  It's called High
> Crusade (based on the book?) and will star (get this) Peter
> O'toole!

> A friend of mine is negotiating for some SFX work on it.

My God, I hope so - I must've read that book three or four times
when I was in high school.  It would make a great STAR WARS-type
space opera.
                                        Regards - GVG
                                        hplabs!hp-pcd!gvg

------------------------------

Date: Fri 19 Apr 85 16:35:47-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Followup to SF/Fantasy bookstore-address requests

I have received many replies to my bookstore-address queries (a
thank-you message will go out to individuals when the dust clears).
Addresses are still coming in, mostly duplicates, so to reduce the
mail volume here's the list of those for which I still need
addresses:

Book Nook, Atlanta, GA                Odyssey Bookshop, KY

Mile-Hi Comics, Boulder, CO           Mile-Hi Comics, Denver, CO

Science Fiction & Mystery Bookshop,   Powell's Books, Portland, OR
Atlanta, GA

Books of Wonder                       The Foundation Bookstore
464 Hudson St                         Rosemary St
New York, NY                          Chapel Hill, NC
[all I need is the zip code]          [I need street # and zip code]

Those who request(ed) a copy of the list will receive addresses for
40 bookstores (including those listed above, hopefully) in the US,
Canada, and England specializing in (or at least strongly into) SF &
fantasy.

Thanks,
Rich

------------------------------

From: unc!cm@topaz.arpa (Chuck Mosher)
Subject: Re:  SF Bookstore address request
Date: 21 Apr 85 23:27:27 GMT

Rich - I tried to send this through the mail but the address failed.
I hope the net will excuse the posting.  If you are ever in Chapel
Hill, definitely check out this bookstore.  They have a HUGE
selection, including old (out-of-print) and used books.

> The Foundation Bookstore
> Rosemary St
> Chapel Hill, NC
> [I need street # and zip code]

It has changed its name and owner.  New address is:

        The Second Foundation Bookstore
        136 E Rosemary St.
        Chapel Hill, NC   27514
        919-967-4439

I would also like a copy of the list.  Thanks for doing this!

                                Chuck Mosher
                                Dept of Computer Science
                                UNC Chapel Hill
                                !{decvax!philabs}!mcnc!unc!cm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Apr 85 1117-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #134
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Apr 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:

         Art - Bob Walters,
         Books - Anthony & Heinlein & McCaffrey (3 msgs) &
                 A Request,
         Films - Star Trek IV & Dragonslayer & Showscan &
                 Wizards (2 msgs),
         Television - Dr. Who & Outer Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1985 10:31:55 EST
From: <AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Art in True Names

     I think that a few of Mark Leeper's comments re Bob Walters'
artwork for True Names are in need of comment.  Having been involved
with that project rather intimately -- both I and a housemate posed
for some of the setup photos for this book, though the faces were
changed to protect the guilty -- I think I'm in a position to do so.
     First of all, you must recognize that very few sf artists have
as much control over their work as you seem to think, Mark.  Art
directors often tell artists precisely which scenes they want
illustrated, from what perspective, and so on.  When such limits are
placed on an artist, they can prevent some of his or her talent from
showing through.  To my mind, despite the numerous constraints
placed on him by Bluejay's staff, Bob managed to produce a fine set
of illustrations.
     Secondly, your comment on the sloppy placement of the
illustrations, while true, is placed in the same paragraph as your
comments on the artist's talents.  Unfortunately, this implies that
the two are related, which they aren't.  Once again, this type of
thing is under the control of the publisher, not the artist.  If
you're unhappy with the placement of the pictures (and you're quite
right about it being sloppy), please bitch directly to Bluejay --
this isn't something that the artist has any control over.
Unfortunately, Bluejay in general does sloppy work.  Their trade
paperback line has, all too often, consisted of reprints whose
length, even when one counts the "padding" like Minsky's comments on
True Names, doesn't justify their price.  Their release dates are
continually slipping, causing losses of royalties to both authors
and artists.  [True Names has an '84 copyright date, but wasn't
shipped till mid-January of '85; as a result, many of the big
bookstores {Daltons/Walden/etc} refused to stock it, as it was an
"out-of-date" edition.]  I know, from talking to Bob, that he
intends not to work for them again unless it's absolutely necessary
-- apparently they didn't even have the courtesy to return the
originals in decent shape!
     By the way, if you really want to judge the quality of his
work, you might consider attending this year's Disclave (in DC over
Memorial Day Weekend), where he will be the Artist Guest of Honor.

--Dave Axler

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Piers Anthony Isn't Real?
Date: 23 Apr 85 19:37:42 GMT

I just woke up to the fact, probably well known to the rest of the
world, that Piers Anthony is a pseudonym.  Ok, so what's his (her?)
real name?????

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

To: Janice <MDC.JANICE%MIT-OZ@mit-mc.arpa>
Subject: Re: Andy Libby Story (Misfit) - Correction
Date: 23 Apr 85 09:26:47 PST (Tue)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

> ...  The most amusing feature of this story, for me at least, was
> the scene where two major characters are doing some calculations
> on a computer, and in order to do so they have to convert all the
> numbers using log tables.

At the end of the story Libby was assigned to a computer, which
broke down and he had to mentally calculate the answers.  But the
story gave no indication of what form the computer output was, so we
must assume from the firing data mentioned ("tube thirteen, seven
point six ...") that this was the form of the output.  The only
mention on logs in the story was when they first discovered his
ability and were testing it: he didn't know what a log was until
they explained it to him, at which time he calculated some for them.

You have confused this with another Heinlein story, a novel:
"Starman Jones".  This involved the scene you described, where
people stood by with books of tables translating computer input and
output.  I only recall binary-decimal conversions, since that was
the mode of input/output the computer used, but wouldn't be suprised
if logs were looked up too.

My favorite story of this type was "Superiority" (Arthur C. Clarke),
where a warship housing a 'Battle Analyzer' computer had to be
accompanied by a (vulnerable) passenger liner containing a "team of
five hundred technicians to maintain and operate it".  You see, the
Analyzer had "just short of a million vacuum tubes".

        Jim

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 85 09:50:58 PST (Tuesday)
From: Susser.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Pern Question

I always guessed that Pern was small and had a low surface gravity,
but I think your calculation may be based on a false assumption.  I
do not think that the length of a Pernese day was ever given in
anything corresponding to Earth time.  I don't have my Pern books
handy, but I remember the scene when F'lar was computing the times
of threadfall, and how I thought that there didn't seem to be
twenty-four hours in a day.  Even then, a Pernese hour may not be
the same as an Terran hour.  So, if the day were shorter or longer
(either in measured hours or in real time), then Pern could be
larger.  I always thought of Pern as being about Mars' size and
gravity.

-- Josh Susser (Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa)

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Pern Question
Date: 23 Apr 85 06:06:59 GMT

> I was thumbing through the Atlas of Pern when it dawned upon me to
> calculate the size of the planet. Based on the distances between
> time zones, I found that Pern was approximately the size of
> Saturn's moon Rhea - one _eighth_ the diameter of Earth! (half
> that of the moon)
>
> Pern must be pretty damn dense if it has gravity anywhere near
> that on Earth (the densest planet in our solar system).  Perhaps
> this is why those huge dragons can fly so easily?

I am not familiar with the atlas.  Does it use the map in the front
of the books?  That map can't be to scale.  In "The White Dragon",
they say that the Northern continent could fit in one bay of the
Southern continent.  That obviously can't be true, if that map were
to scale.  Benden and Ruatha are half a world away, according to
Dragonflight.  (Page 63, Del Rey edition) Yet, Benden doesn't appear
to be half a world from Ruatha, barely a third in fact.  If you read
carefully, there are other inconsistencies, like the relationship
between High Reaches and Benden, that make me suspect the
cartographers are in error.  I suspect that that Pern uses a
Northern Continent centric projection for maps, like Mercator's
projection which makes Greenland look far larger than South America.
If you read carefully, there are other inconsistencies, like the
relationship between High Reaches and Benden, that make me suspect
the cartographers are in error.

Pern's gravity isn't that far from Earth's, according to the
prologue to Dragonflight.  Men can walk confidently.  They can't
even truly do so on the moon.  With 1/36'th of Earth's gravity,
which is about what such a planet's gravity would be, you'd take off
every time you ran.
                                Dave van De Kerk
                                Loyal to Benden
                                Hacker Hall, U.C. Davis

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!regard@topaz.arpa (Adrienne Regard)
Subject: Pern's map
Date: 23 Apr 85 18:40:49 GMT

I was interested to discover that the "map" of Pern very closely
approximates maps of Venus in the latest Scientific American.  Is
this news only to me?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 22 Apr 85 15:09:23-CST
From: Pete Galvin <CC.GALVIN@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: The name of the book?

Here's another challange for someone with a better memory than mine:
The main character of the book (or maybe a short story) is the next
step in evolution (from man).  He has extra joint in his digits, has
a little laboratory in his basement in which he invents nifty things
and makes lots of money, etc.  There is also a neat ending, but I
won't give it away for fear of spoiling the story (that is, if
anyone can tell me what the story was!).  I could have sworn Ted
Sturgeon wrote this, but Sturgeonites just look at me funny when I
describe it to them...
                                   --Pete

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Star Trek IV
Date: 22 Apr 85 17:45:51 GMT

I suspect that we won't really know about ST:IV until it's out. (In
the can, as they say...) I mean, we've read about three or four plot
lines people "got" from "reliable sources".  At one end is this
discription...

> This appears to be a movie based on war, and as it turns out, Kirk
> succeeds, and in the process destroys a good deal of the Klingon
> battle group........
>
> Also, this is probably going to be the last ST movie with the
> original cast, as some characters are supposed to be killed, this
> time for good.

And then we have Takei's own words (on local radio in Baltimore, for
example) saying it was going to be "done for fun...  Like The
Trouble With Tribbles." Since it is hard to reconcile these two
discriptions, I suspect we're shooting in the dark. (Keep those old
cliches alive!)

Fred Avolio   {decvax,seismo}!decuac!avolio      301/731-4100 x4227

------------------------------

Date: Tue 23 Apr 85 10:27:04-EST
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: DragonSlayer

I and several friends of mine enjoyed DragonSlayer a whole lot.  We
saw it 3 times.  It was a joint effort of Parmount and Walt Disney
Productions.  I have the book, but have never had the chance yet to
read it.

Of course the effects and Dragon were great - it was done by ILM
(Industrial Light and Magic) - (George) Lucas Film's group.

Now if only I had a VTR...

Cheers,
Gern

------------------------------

Date: Tue 23 Apr 85 13:42:18-PST
From: R H Davis  <RDAVIS@USC-ECL.ARPA>
Subject: Showscan

   Showscan, a process developed by Trumble at Paramount Pictures,
is a high quality version of IMAX/CINEMAX.  Images are photographed
sideways on the frame(70mm, I believe) at a rate of 65 frames per
second.  The frame is also projected on it's side at 65fps.  This
allows for a very clean image that fills the screen (about 3 stories
high) and maximizes the audiances nausea factor (!!!haha!!!).
Showscan also utilizes an extremely high quality digital playback
sound system.  The only problem with the process is that the film
must be especially made as most film stocks shatter under the
pressure of 65 fps (the film is started and stopped in the
camera/projector 65 times in a second).  It's great....but it's much
more expensive than Imax to shoot.....too bad.

bd

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 23:33 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: WIZARDS and Vaughn Bode
Cc: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC.ARPA>

>HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a
>character created by the late Vaughn Bode[, Cobalt-60.]  ...  It
>was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and I
>suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it (I never was aware
>of any legal action). Stealing ideas from dead artists seems
>ghoulish to me, and my personal respect for Bakshi dropped quite a
>bit.
          Several years ago, I was at either Norwestcon or Baycon
(or maybe even Westercon - somewhere on the west coast anyway) and
Bode's son, Mark, was there, along with another person whose name
I've forgotten and will refer to as *A* (a colaborator of V. Bode).
They said that what had happened was something like this:
          Bakshi saw the character (at that point I think still
unpublished) in V.  Bode's notebook and got the idea for WIZARDS,
but they couldn't come to terms.  Some time later, V.  Bode died,
leaving his estate in a mess that took literally years to clean up.
Immediately, Bakshi began Wizards, which in due course came out.  At
this point, V.  Bode's estate had STILL not been settled, and so no
legal action was (could be) taken.  In fact, by the time V.  Bode's
estate was settled, it was to late to file a lawsuit for copyright
infringement.  (There may also have been some problem with the
copyright, i.e., whatever Cobalt-60 appeared in had no copyright
notice, or was never officially distributed or something.  (This WAS
a couple of years ago.  I only remember as much as I do because M.
Bode and I have the same first name.))
          Anyway, M.  Bode and *A* were to collaborate on a new
series of Cobalt-60 strips, which I THINK is/was to be/will be
appear in EPIC magazine.  (If anyone has seen them, perhaps we could
get a review for the net.) *A* said that he hoped Bakshi sued THEM
for copyright infringement, because then they could countersue, but
that he didn't think Bakshi was that stupid.  Other than that hope,
apparently they have no legal recourse.

Incidentally, "Bode" is pronounce in two sylables, something like
"Bo-Day" (like "Vo-Tech", only different).

       Mark
       Purtill at MIT-MULTICS
       2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits)
Subject: WIZARDS
Date: 23 Apr 85 16:17:51 GMT

I agree with Mark Leeper: I didn't like WIZARDS either.  During the
film, the corners of my mouth started sinking, as did my stomach;
scantily clad females don't do a thing for me; all that footage that
I thought was interesting in Lord of the Rings I saw had been used
before in WIZARDS; bad guys are Nazis-- I agree, Nazis're bad, but
this just felt like a crutch because Bakshi couldn't make up his own
bad guys.  And then the easy-out, absolutely-wrong ending.

The worst part of it was, that so many of my friends thought this
was a movie to end all movies, and I thought (and still think) it
was male-juvenile humor at its trashiest (come on--what girl wants
to see a movie in which there is only one female character (-: okay,
and no totally gnarly dudes :-) ).  Well, that's just my opinion.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: sdcc7!li63sfh@topaz.arpa (Philip Kao)
Subject: Dr. Who (?)
Date: 23 Apr 85 04:31:32 GMT

so boys and girls, it's trivia time i got this letter from a
potential roommate who is in love with Dr. Who...bad sign????...who
the ____ is Dr. Who?  please reply by email if possible, i may not
read all of these news groups often enough.

uucp   : ...!{ucbvax,ihnp4,noscvax}!sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}
arpa   : sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}@{Berkeley,Nosc}
CS-Net : (none)
Bit-Net: sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}%WISCVM
Dec-Net: ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}%DECWRL

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 24 Apr 85 02:20:49 EST
From: boyle (franklin boyle) @ cmu-psy-a
Subject: Outer Limits

   Does anyone know if video tapes of any of the episodes of the
Outer Limits are being rented or sold? I know that some Star Trek
episodes are -- on separate, 1 hour tapes. I have recently begun to
tape the Outer Limits from a local independent TV station, but they
are currently pre-empting it with movies even though it is listed in
the local TV guide. If they trash it then I'll have to hope that
another picks it up. I have 9 episodes, but there are 46 (correct me
if I'm wrong), and I would like to get them all.
   Any replies can be sent directly to me, unless you feel it is of
general interest to the net.

Thanks in advance,
Frank    (boyle@cmu-psy-a)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Apr 85 1048-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #135
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:

       Books - Anthony & Heinlein (2 msgs) & King (2 msgs) &
               Powers & A Request Answered (3 msgs),
       Films- Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Ladyhawke

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 11:55:48 pst
From: richardl%ucbmiro@Berkeley (Richard Levenberg-Villadonga)

I have been waiting for this since April of 1984 and I bought it as
soon as it came out.  I read it this weekend and now am anxiously
waiting for the next one.  Here is the first review.

For those of you who have read the first two you know that Hope
Hubris is faced with seemingly unescapable death but he always pulls
through due to the professionalism of the people he surrounds
himself with.  Anthony has done it again and Hope pulls through as
expected.  One part is particularly interesting with an old earth
train robbery and some very good action sequences.  But it gets a
little tiring to see someone (usually a woman) who is so completely
devoted to Hope that she gives up her life to save him and his
cause.

The symbols were not abstract enough.  Saturn and Jupiter, two
independent "United States," are obviosly supposed to represent the
U.S. and Russia.  The symbols are not only there but they are
presented blatantly and leave nothing to the readers interpretation.
Anthony uses the Korean Airlines incident of last year as a means to
get Hope and the leaders of the classless (sic) society of Saturn
and the dialogue Hope has with them is extremely funny.

In this volume we finally get to meet Hopie Hubris, the daughter of
our illustrious hero.  Not only do we get to meet her but we get to
watch her grow up and save her father once (though probably not the
last time).  Hopie is the one who writes the short prolog in the
back of the previous two novels.

Anthony uses a very good technique for telling the story and it is
one I have not seen before.  I was impressed.  I dont even want to
hint at it for fear of spoiling it for others but it is unique and
worth reading just to see the versatility of Piers Anthony.  I
highly recommend this book (read the first two first!) but probably
do not have to for those of you who have already read the first two.

Enjoy!
richardl@ucbmiro.berkeley

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY
Date: 24 Apr 85 19:33:10 GMT

>The thing that I found most annoying about FRIDAY was that it
>seemed as thought Heinlein had an idea for a novel, and wrote it,
>but he couldn't end the story well. Then he remembered this little
>short story idea that he couldn't sell (for good reason) so he
>changed the short story around a bit and made it into the ending
>for the novel.

        I think you will find this flaw in many of Heinlein's
novels.  His plots often tend to peter out in midstream, or to be
aborted in mid- flight. As examples, consider TIME FOR THE STARS,
where the ship's voyages are suddenly ended by the discovery of FTL
offstage, or TUNNEL IN THE SKY, where the survival efforts of the
protagonists are halted abruptly by the repair of the transmitter
back on Earth, or PODKAYNE OF MARS, where Poddy sets out for Earth,
but hasn't even gotten there when the novel ends. The most extreme
example is probably TNoTB, where the original plot (with the "black
hats") is simply denied and cancelled, but the book goes on (and
on).
        Heinlein is my favorite SF writer, but he ain't perfect.

                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

From: harrow@exodus.DEC (Jeff Harrow NCSE TWO/E92 DTN=247-3134)
Subject: Robert Heinlein
Date: 24 Apr 85 18:19:17 GMT

I'll tell you, I grew up with Heinlein (so to speak).  Through his
books he taught me a great deal and was a pleasant companion from
elementary school onward.

Now I'll continue to buy each new book in hardcover the minute it
appears (a rare exception for me) because I feel that I owe him a
lot, but the two most recent novels have left me somewhat cool.
What happened to the TREMENDOUS, almost enveloping structure and
content of the Lazurus Long and other, earlier stories?

I mourn for this loss, but I WILL keep on hoping and buying...

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 23 Apr 1985 08:06:23-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Review of Bachman/King's 'RAGE'

Review of 'RAGE' by Richard Bachman/(Stephen King).

     The basic story of 'RAGE' is an account of a high-school
student who goes a bit insane and shoots a couple of teachers and
then takes his whole class as hostages. Some of this book is silly,
but, for the most part it is pretty good. The way Stephen presents
the story, from the crazy kids point of view is interesting. Also,
the way the days events affect other kids in the class and some of
the adults who are attempting to deal with the situation gave me
some things to think about.
     While this book is not going to be a classic (if it wasn't for
the news about Bachman being King this book would never be back in
print), I would recommend this book for light reading. The subject
may indicate that the story could be a tense horror story, but, most
of the story is people dealing with other people. King takes us back
(using flash backs) to the main events that lead to the breaking
point for our hero (as it were), also, some of the other kids
reflect on things that have happened to them.
     While 'RAGE' is better than 'The Long Walk' it is not quite as
good as 'The Running man'. I give 'RAGE' 6 points out of 10.
     I did see "CAT'S EYE" about a week ago, I liked it. But, The
last story of the three had something I thought was really DUMB
(like in STUPID)!! I don't think it's possible to ruin a movie in
less than a minute, but, even though I liked the last story up to
the 30 seconds of #%$^%#^! I left the theatre with a bad feeling.
Reflecting back, the first two stories were pretty good, I liked the
'Ledge' more than 'Quitters Inc.', I think I would have liked the
last story at least as much as the 'Ledge' if it wasn't for...
arrrgh..!! SORRY ABOUT THE FLAMES. I won't review "CAT'S EYE", might
flame it, but, won't review it. I wonder if anyone else feels as
strongly about the DUMB part as I do. For those of you who haven't
seen it, the DUMB part is very obvious, I don't think I'll have to
point it out to anyone who has seen the movie.

                       KEN COBB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 09:46 pst
From: "pugh jon%g.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: New Steven King edition

I just purchased a copy of Stephen King's book, _Cycle_of_the_
Werewolf_.  This is a new edition of a book that appeared only in
hardcover and it is beautiful!  Berni Wrightson did the
illustrations in both color and b&w.  Truly one of the best
illustrated books I have seen in years.

If you read _National_Lampoon_ then you may have seen some of
Berni's work.  He did a parody of the TV show _Bewitched_ in which
Sam and Endora were real witches, complete with human sacrifices and
sex magic with demons.  My favorite part had to be when they burn
Mrs. Cravitts' eyes out though.  Silly stuff, I highly recommend it.
It was in comic format and funny.

Berni has also done a lot of SF artwork, although his leanings are
toward the horror realm.  I have a portfolio of his interpretation
of Edgar Allan Poe's works that is quite stunning, especially
_The_Cask_of_Howeveryouspellit_.

So, in summary, this book is a must see!

                                                -- Jon Pugh --

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits)
Subject: DINNER AT THE DEVIANT'S PALACE; Powers; Blaylock; Ashbless
Date: 23 Apr 85 16:14:09 GMT

Evelyn C. Leeper
>      I realize all this sounds very negative.  The book is not
> that bad, but it's not that good either.  Read his first novel
> instead, and hope for a better one for his third.

Nah.  Probably not.  The first two *published* were Laser books; I
read one of them--it was sort of fun but predictable (and
sexist--two women, both stupid and bad: one old icky, crazy one
without teeth, and one fair young thing that everyone laughs at when
she tries poetry and who abandons anyone for anyone-else who looks
to have a bigger purse) in the one-hero-with-good-reflexes-saves-
the-planet (but doesn't get the fair young female! who wants her!
women! bah!) ...I read a lot of these, and this one is probably
excellent by Laser books standards.  However.

So unless we start in negative numbers (say, -2), we've already seen
Tim Powers' 3rd book.

For those who enjoyed _The_Anubis_Gates_, I recommend
_Digging_Leviathan_ by Blaylock.  You will meet your old friend,
that inimitable poet, William Ashbless, exploring the ocean deeps
off Palos Verdes and the vast underground sea beneath LA.  And
searching for the marine entrance to the center of the earth, where
all those mermen must have come from.  In about the 1950s.

Blaylock's elf&dwarf books are very gentle, and probably quite
suitable to read to any offspring you might have.  If they're big
enough to not have nightmares full of evil animated skeletons and
zombies with murder in their eye-sockets.  They're also humorous,
but a good deal of the humor is visual rather than verbal, so I had
to take pauses sometimes to conjure up a picture of a funny scene.
The descriptions of these scenes are why the books are so thick.
However, these are more books with invisible women: although one
character does occasionally mention his mother, the only females
that take part in the action are wicked witches.

By the way, every Powers (4 of the 5 I know of) and Blaylock (3 of 3
I know of) book I've read contains at least a mention of William
Ashbless.  Yes, this includes Blaylock's two gentle fantasies,
_The_Elfin_Ship_ and _The_Disappearing_Dwarf_ (Del Rey), which take
place in a completely imaginary land populated by dwarfs and elves
and wizards and are quite unlike Powers' books or
_Digging_Leviathan_.  Can anyone out there dig up the Laser book I
didn't read, and see if it too mentions Ashbless?

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 21:00:01 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Do you recall... & James P. Hogan

Barry Margolin (Margolin@MIT-MULTICS) writes:
> Ephrayim asked about a book in which the character[s] keep
> reliving the same day over.  I recall reading this book a few
> years ago, and I think it is James P. Hogan's "Twice Upon a Time".

Not as I recall -- Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_a_Time_ was about a
computer- -assisted device that could communicate with itself
forwards and backwards in time (hence the title), with some
characters to make it a story.

I actually enjoyed the book, but gave up halfway through two of his
other books; his characters generally seem to be cardboard, sturdy
enough only to hold up the scientific extrapolation that is the core
of his stories.  _The_Genesis_Machine_ inspired me to put it down
and read some >nonfictional< scientific lecturing.

[Flame --I say-- flame now off]

Oh yeah, the story -- does anyone else out there know what it is? If
it isn't one of the Dick stories that I mentioned previously, I'd
like to read it; it's a very interesting idea.

                                        --Pete  [jpa144@cit-vax]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 85 09:42:40 PST (Wednesday)
From: Ayers.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #132

On the work where people re-live the same day over and over:

A short story from the '50s, probably in Galaxy or Astounding,
featured a plot where EVERYONE relives the same day over and over.

It seems that the hero invents a "ray" that causes cells to
perfectly regenerate overnight. He creates a machine to produce the
ray, thus giving the world immortality.

But since brain cells recreate themselves perfectly overnight,
long-term memory vanishes: every morning you have the same memories
as when the "ray" was first turned on.

People may have a device which records short-term memory in the
evening and then replays it into their brains in the morning. Of
course its hard to keep updating yourself from day-one-of-the-ray
and so you really have your memories from pre-ray days with some
fraction of recent days smashed over them.

Focus of the story is the hero's efforts to, via older memory-tapes
of his, remember enough about the past to be able to reach, and shut
off, the "ray" generator.

I recall one of the lines from the story: one character to another,
clearly the punch-line of a popular joke:
  "Boy, this has been one HELL of an April 24th!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 06:16 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: A query answered

Sorry barmar - you is wrong.  The story about the man who lives the
same day over and over is definitely by Philip Dick - although I too
cannot remember the title.  Hogan's "THRICE upon a time" features
one of his (typically) smart-arsed geniuses who decides to alter the
past (twice - hence the thrice in the title) to save the world once
from a new disease and once from miniature black holes gnawing away
at the centre of the earth.

The Philip Dick novel in which people particpate as Barbie Dolls
(Perkie Pat) is "The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" one of
Dick's very finest novels.  The people are colonists on Mars and
escape into their "layouts" (models of reality) via an
hallucinogenic drug called Chew-Z (catchy huh?)  The eponymous Mr.
Eldritch returns from some alien planet bearing a rival drug -
Can-D.  Gradually (slight spoiler) it becomes apparanet that once
you've taken Can-D you NEVER know whether you're back to reality or
still hallucinating.  And you keep coming up against Mr.  E in
various disguises.  He has, however, three physically distinguishing
features (the stigmata of the title) which always give him away - if
you're on the lookout - trouble is - can't remember what they are.
This is a GREAT novel - I thoroughly recommend it to all those who
haven't read it - nothing to do with reliving the same day tho'
(sorry moderator).

------------------------------

From: crash!usiiden!jholt@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 10:16:29 PST
Subject: 'attack of the killer tomatoes' [sing along]

actually, i think we're talking about the 70's film - strictly
tongue- in-cheek.  with stars like jack riley of bob newhart fame
(mr. carlton, remember?), how could it be otherwise?

someone suggested putting the director away... actually, steve peace
is now in california politics!  ah well, a madhouse is a madhouse...

                           jholt
                           (crash!usiiden!jholt@ucsd)

------------------------------

Subject: the horse in "LadyHawke"
Date: 24 Apr 85 20:57:09 PST (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

My impression is that Goliath is either a Shire or a Percheron.  The
only other draft horse I can think of is a Clydesdale, and they have
great tufts of hair over the hoofs (I also doubt whether there are
any jet-black Clydesdales).  However, my brother is a horse trainer
and riding instructor.  I'll see if I can get his opinion, and pass
it on.  (I am certain, though, that Goliath is no Arabian.  They are
light of build, fleet, tremendous runners.  They don't have the
build of draft horses.)
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Apr 85 1125-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #136
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Apr 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) &
                    King & Simak & Wilhelm,
            Films - Brazil & Cat's Eye & Wizards,
            Miscellaneous - Computers in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Isn't Real?
Date: 24 Apr 85 16:09:36 GMT

> I just woke up to the fact, probably well known to the rest of the
> world, that Piers Anthony is a psuedonem.  Ok, so what's his
> (her?) real name?????

His real name is Piers Anthony Tillingham Jacob.  On the page just
before the end of most of his books, it explains how he got this
unusual set of names.

Jeff Okamoto
..!ucbvax!okamoto
okamoto@Berkely.ARPA

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: RE: Re:Re:re: Is Pierce Anthony Real?-mystery ends
Date: 24 Apr 85 17:55:23 GMT

Woe is me. I am deluged by answers to my query that Piers Anthony is
really Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob.  Thank you one and all. I
admit, the first one I received I was just about to fire back, "Are
you putting me on?"  But several thousand similar replies buried me
before I could reply.  Well, several hundred.  Well, several.

My clue came from a footnote in a 1963 Ace Special
Thanks again!

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Apr 85 14:30:28-PST
From: BBISHOP%ECLD@ECLA
Subject: Piers Anthony

Does anyone know when "With Hourglass in Hand" by Piers Anthony will
be out in paperback? (I believe that's the title, or at least close)
It's the second of his current series 'Incarnations of Immortality'
and about someone who gets the job of Chronos, keeper of time, etc.
etc. The first book was about an average Joe in a future world who
gets the job of Death and was not bad.  It would have been great if
he hadn't preached for so long about euthanasia.  This seems to be
the only serious SF that Anthony wishes to write (do NOT send
replies about "BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT" or the Xanth series - I could
flame about those for a month and a half) If you like Anthony's
stuff at all, do yourself a favor and read "Macroscope" or the
Cluster 'trilogy' (it's at four books now, I believe). These blow
those punny fantasy potboilers right out of the water.

     Brian Bishop   <BBISHOP@ECLD>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 10:09 pst
From: "pugh jon%g.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: James P. Hogan's works

>James P. Hogan's "Twice Upon a Time".

Sorry, it was "Thrice Upon a Time" and it was great!  I also have
enjoyed everything Hogan has written, and especially this book.  It
got a bit corny from Hogan trying to work the love interest in,
since his slant is so obviously hard-sf, but it was acceptable.  I
loved the idea of passing only information back in time, especially
with a PDP-11.  He also did a marvelous job setting limits and then
exceeding them.  The sending of info back in time was limited to 2
weeks, but they sent a program that downloaded, and it sent a
program that downloaded, etc.  It also had a very logical and
consistent theory of time and the conservation of everything.

> Does anybody know if he has any short works?

I read just about every anthology I can get my hands on and I can't
remember ever seeing any by him.  I'll know better once I finish
transcribing my library into my MacIntosh.  It will help a lot when
I do those "What story was that where ..." searches because I'll
cross reference by short story, author and book.  I'm also planning
on a keyword scheme for plot, but there are only so many hours in
the day.

By the way, be sure to read _The_Genesis_Machine_ by Mr. Hogan.  It
is great.  The best solution to detente I have ever read, but then I
like the idea of absolute power with no corruption.  I guess that's
why I still like Superman, even though the comics are too silly.
I'll just have to make mine Marvel.  Although there is a great comic
called _Mage,_the_Hero_Discovered_ being published.  Does anybody
else like it or have you even seen it?  Good stuff.

                                        -- Jon Pugh --

------------------------------

Subject: James P. Hogan
Date: 24 Apr 85 13:45:14 PST (Wed)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        There is one short story by Hogan that I know of.  It was
published several years ago in one edition of Kim Baen's old
Destinies bookazine.  The title was something vaguely ( I'm no where
near my library ) like 'Silver Shoes for a Princess.  That title is
undoubtedly a bit off, though.  It was quite a good story, actually.
Everything else by Hogan has been, to my recollection, a novel.
        My favorite was a twist on the standard time travel story,
'Thrice Upon a Time'.  Read this one, folks.  Good book.

                Dave

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: Stephen King
Date: 24 Apr 85 13:30:12 GMT

> From: cbscc!rsu       (Rick Urban)
> ...there was a reprinting of "Cycle of the Werewolf" recently by
> New American Library, while my understanding was that the edition
> put out by the Land of Enchantment Press was to be the only one.
> Call it greed or public demand, there have been efforts to make
> King's less mainstream works available to the public, though I
> doubt if mass market editions of "The Dark Tower" are on the
> horizon.

I got the impression that the NAL edition of CYCLE was done to be a
tie-in to the movie SILVER BULLET, which is adapted from that story.
Why it was published so far in advance of the movie, I don't know,
unless the movie was pushed back from a Spring to a Fall release.

As for THE DARK TOWER, no doubt you've noticed that it *wasn't*
listed in THE TALISMAN.

>       P. S. Some people have asked me where I get my information.
> Well, let's see:
>       Time, Newsweek, USA Today, The New York Times, Publishers
> Weekly, Library Journal, The West Coast Review of Books, Variety,
> The Hollywood Reporter, Starlog, Fangoria, Cinefantastique,
> Starburst, Booklist, Viking Books, New American Library, Putnam
> Publishing Group, Douglas Winter's "Stephen King: The Art of
> Darkness", Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, Forthcoming Books
> in Print, Jerry Boyajian...

Wow. I'm in heady company indeed! I'm flattered.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 06:38 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Clifford D. Simak

Someone mentiond ths author a few weeks ago and I'm just now getting
around to confirming that he has other fans on the net.  In fact
I've just finished rereading (most of) the sixteen or so of his
novels I possess, and I'Ve come (once again) to the conclusion that
he is perhap my favorite SF author.  Favorite books would, I guess,
rather obviously be "City" and "Way Station" - the two Hugo winners
as I recall.  I would also recommend most of his other books
(described as "pastoral" or "bucolic" by many) - escpecially "Time
is the Simplest Thing" "Ring Around th Sun" and "Mastodonia".  Does
anyone out there have a Simak bibliography?  (Jayembee?).

            deryk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 21:09:53 pst
From: Dennis Cottel <dennis%cod@Nosc>
Subject: Re: Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS

I have to agree on all points with Donn Seeley's review of Kate
Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS.  I've been reading her other work ever
since I read and enjoyed WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG a few years
ago.  Unfortunately, none has really fit my tastes as well -- until
WC.  But this is a great story -- one that will keep you up past
your bedtime if you start it in the evening!  (And then it took me a
while to get to sleep....)

Donn mentions avoiding the cover blurbs on this book: I have been
burned too often by serious spoilers in the dust jacket overleaf, in
quotes on the back cover, or on the first (blurb) page of a
paperback.  Lately I try to pick my books by author or
recommendations (from the net :-) without reading this material.

Dennis Cottel  Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 225-2406     dennis@nosc.ARPA      sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

From: ukc!sah@topaz.arpa (S.A.Hill)
Subject: BRAZIL (review)
Date: 25 Apr 85 12:16:40 GMT

                               BRAZIL
                               ======

        BRAZIL is the latest film to spring from one of the Monty
Python team. In this case Terry Gilliam. Gilliam was responsible for
all those marvelous animations and for the sets in The Life of
Brian.
        BRAZIL is simply the best film I have seen in years. It
blends an alternative world (all too similar to our own) with a dark
sense of humour.  The world created recalls Orwellian images; a
place where bureaucracy has taken over and individuals are forgotten
behind the masks of their own occupations. Great attention has been
paid to detail; you see company logos on equipment and the computers
are real computers with all the works visible.
        Gilliams humour is never far away and is used to great
effect breaking tension and keeping the audience on its toes.  He
switches from dream to reality without warning, but with devastating
results. The images he uses are sometimes nighmarish, often amusing,
and always bizarre. The special effects are subtle - you know
they're there but do not notice them at the time, and spectacular -
eg.  flying scenes that look real.
        BRAZIL? Why BRAZIL - well all I can say is that it comes
from the song of the same name. The theme haunts us through the
entire film (and for some days thereafter). It can be both joyous
and full of life or heavy and depressive.
        The film is difficult to classify. It could be SF, but in
the sense that 1984 is. It could be humour, but don't go to see it
if you want to be laughing all the time. It is surreal at times, but
all too real at others.
        Well, I shall not attempt to describe the plot - too much
happens, and it is best left for the viewer to interpret when she/he
sees it. I have attempted to put into words what I felt of the film,
but it is such an impressive production laden with abstract ideas
and deep emotion that the only way you will be able to appreciate
what I have attempted to describe is to see the film.
        If you go on a Friday it will give you all weekend to
recover.
                Steve Hill.

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!victoro@Nosc>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 23:40:19 PST
Subject: 'Cats Eye' - Negative Review

I enjoyed the first of the trilogy the best.  The pacing was fine,
and the story idea seemed original.
        The second story was so obvious in its plotting, I couldn't
wait for the next story..it had to better then this...

                    ***** Spoiler Warning *****

        The third story was good.  It brought in the cat, presented
a new situation, and set the cat up as hero.  The parents (of
course) never believed the child until the very end....then they
decide to forget the entire affair (what would the neighbors
think)...Why?  So the kid could blackmail the parents into admitting
their error!  Why couldn't the story end with a positve note of the
parents learning from their ways, and apologizing to their kid?
        Nope, parents are nasty people.
        They work best under blackmail....
        Was that the unifing theme of the film?
                (Besides the cat)

        ---->Victor O'Rear

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS
Date: 24 Apr 85 18:50:23 GMT

GOOD@ACC writes:
>
>HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a
>character created by the late Vaughn Bode.
>
>His most haunting character, Cobalt-60 (sound familiar already ?),
>was a mutant humanoid who spent most of his time hunting down and
>killing non-mutant humanoids, in an attempt to establish his own
>kind as "normal" and to punish the humans for creating a
>radioactive wasteland. Bakshi's NECRON-90 was almost identical in
>form to Cobalt-60, right down to the beast they rode into battle.
>The only difference to me was that NECRON-90 decided to stop and
>smell the roses, and Cobalt-60 would have blasted them with never a
>second thought.
>
>It was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and I
>suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it

I talked to Mark Bode at a con a while back, and blatant ripoff
isn't the word. As a matter of fact, Bakshi borrowed some drafts
from Vaughn Bode of the Cobalt-60 character and then proceeded to
add them to his movie. That isn't plagarism, that's theft.
Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of clearcut law about it, and it
looks like Bakshi is going to be away with it.

For those that are interested, Epic magazine has been carrying Mark
Bode's version of Cobalt-60 as a continuation of the work started by
his father.  Mark (being assisted by Larry Todd, I believe) is doing
a good job, but he isn't his father, and it shows. Vaughn didn't get
very far on Cobalt-60 while he was alive because he found it just
too depressing. Reading Mark's work, based on what his father did
do, notes, and his own ideas, shows why.

:From the closet of anxieties of:                 Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui   nsc!chuqui@decwrl

------------------------------

From: edison!dpm@topaz.arpa (Dave P. McClurg)
Subject: Re: computer SF?
Date: 22 Apr 85 17:25:48 GMT

>       This might be treading on old ground, but I'm curious what
> people think is the best SF book (or story) they've read that has
> a computer as the main 'character' or an integral part of the
> story...
>                                       Dave Taylor

        *Alejandra Variations* by Paul Cook is radically different
from other COMPUTER SF books.  That is, no blatant presence of
blinking lights or personfication is used to tell an otherwise
boring story.  I think it may be the only SF book that Cook has
written.

The book is composed of 3 or 4 variations which are not short
stories, but scenarios that the computer creates. They are somewhat
like dreams, only their content is controlled by the computer.  The
computer, whose name is Mnemonos 9 and sex is female (the computer
seems to think so), does this by altering brain chemicals and such
to stimulate visions, senses, etc...

One of the operants, which is a person who gets hooked up to the
computer, has a sexual hangup with the last girl he loved and the
computer reacts to this by eventually going sentient.  Some really
interesting sex in hypothetical futures is adroitly described by
cook (positions, etc).

The flavor of *Alejandra Variations* is not just that of a sex
crazed computer but has philisophical attempts to explain artificial
intelligence.  It reminded me of the SHIP in Frank Herbert's book
*The Jesus Incident*.
                                David McClurg at Virginia Tech

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Apr 85 1425-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #137
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bradbury (4 msgs) & Hogan &
                        A Request Answered & Laser Books &
                        The 1985 Hugo Award Nominations,
                Miscellaneous - Alien Races & Atlanta Book Stores

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 00:15:08 est
From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herb Miller)
Subject: Re: Looking for obscure juveniles - The House

I have found reference to 2 stories named "The House".  One is in
Amazing Feb '47, the other in Unknown Worlds Dec '41.  However, both
of these are horror stories, and probably not what you wanted.  I
believe you are referring to "There Will Come Soft Rains" in The
Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury.  Last that I know of, this was
reprinted by Bantam in 1976.

- Herb
   ...decvaxmit-athenahmiller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 00:34:01 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Story request -- "The House"

> How about a short story called The House.  It is about a
> futuristic house on the outskirts of a city that has been recently
> nuked.

The story is "There Will Come Soft Rains," by Ray Bradbury.  I
believe it can be found in _The_Illustrated_Man_.

The house was entirely mechanized/computerized and kept behaving as
though its late inhabitants were still alive, even to the extent of
cooking food (apparently there was enough stored for a few months),
which is what eventually killed it.  A grease fire started when the
house was cooking an egg for breakfast, and spread through the house
too fast to be contained.  Really a rather tragic death scene.

                                --Peter Alfke (jpa144@cit-vax)

------------------------------

Subject: stories of automatic houses (slight spoiler)
Date: 25 Apr 85 23:01:40 PST (Thu)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Somebody asked about a story where a house ran everything by itself,
in the assumption that it was serving the occupants, but the
occupants were actually dead.  Though I suspect the idea has been
used in several places, the place from which I know it is one of Ray
Bradbury's "Martian Chronicles".  The house was evidently well
removed from the centre of the nuclear explosion that devastated the
area (since it's still standing, and running pretty well), but still
close enough that all that's left of the occupants, who appeared to
have been enjoying an afternoon on the front lawn, is shadows burned
into the paint.

I don't remember the name of the chronicle: something like "The
Spring of Silver Showers" (which wouldn't be too surprising from the
author of "I Sing the Body Electric").  The date was August 202x,
where x may be 6.

How did the house keep going?  Where did the power come from?  I
don't recall whether the story says, but I imagine that private
generators or batteries may have been brought on-line automatically
when regional power failed.  It was, after all, that kind of house.
Bradbury seldom seems to concern himself with details like that.  He
seems to prefer mood and coloration, using details only where they
contribute to these.
                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Apr 85 19:59:03-EST
From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #134

With regard to Gary's description of a "juvenile" sf plot, it sounds
like one of the chapters of Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles.  I
think it is the chapter which occurs sometime after the migration to
Mars and the resulting nuclear war.

It also reminds me a little of Simak's City, in which a robot
servant maintains the house of his masters for centuries after the
demise of the human race.
                                                James Kiso

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks to all the people who responded with the
same or similar information:

r.mitchell (ahuta!jrrt@topaz)
jayembee a.k.a Jerry Boyajian (boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL)
FIRTH@TL-20B
kdale@MINET-VHN-EM
William M. York (York@SCRC-QUABBIN)
Craig Berry (muddcs!cberry@topaz)
]

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 25 Apr 1985 06:41:46-PST
From: mccoy%orc.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gary McCoy 247-2047)
Subject: J.P. Hogan

I'm afraid The Code of the Lifemaker is the only Hogan book I've
never been able to finish. I have tried to read it twice, and get
about halfway, then never seem to continue. I had really been
looking forward to this book, and had checked bookstores for weeks
when I knew it was coming (it was advertised in Scientific
American).

I am a big Hogan fan though, and have read many of his books twice.
I like "hard science" in my science fiction and Hogan delivers. I
also like Forward for the same reason although his first book
(Dragon's Egg) is much better than the second. I almost didn't read
this book because of the title.

I've never read Hogan for the personalities of his characters.  The
environment he creates for them doesn't seen real, and indeed they
don't seem complete people. I do read Hogan for the ideas he creates
.e.g. AI. His book The Two Faces of Tomorrow should be read by all
those interested in AI. It shows the problems encountered very well

It has been two years since his last book (can that be right?).  He
had been writing books and releasing books yearly before this. I
also remember being disappointed with the quality of the hardcover
edition, and being disappointed that the original release was
hardcover (who makes these decisions?).

I too would like to have his address. I want more Hogan books, but I
want more of the Hogan who wrote The Two faces of tomorrow.

I really enjoyed Voyage From Yesteryear (is that right?). Again some
of the ideas here appealed to me, and perhaps I liked the planet he
created more than I should have.

Gary McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Apr 85 19:37:01-EST
From: Paul Roberts <PMR@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: "Does anyone recall this book.."

Sounds to me like a story I once read in Analog called "All Day
Wednesday".  Every day was - guess what ? - the same Wednesday.  Bit
of a vague pointer as I can't remember the author or even
approximate date, and the issue itself is 3000 miles away.

Oh to be in England, now that April's here !

Paul

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits)
Subject: Laser books
Date: 24 Apr 85 15:13:01 GMT

Jerry Hewett says Laser books gave away books at cons and this might
be why they went out of business.

Well, at Boskone XII ('75) a publisher was giving away Perry Rhodans
(limit: 4 per visit), but the only people I saw taking them were a
couple of 12-year-olds.  What number is P R up to now?

My wild guess is that Harlequin wasn't getting nearly as big a
return as they get from their other book lines, and giving them away
was an attempt to gain a better name among science fiction fans,
many of whom were biased against the publisher.  I also think that
the publisher didn't have a feel for the right audience for their
books, and may have been aiming for an inappropriate age group.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA  01752

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!jeanne@topaz.arpa
Subject: Hugo Award Nominations
Date: 23 Apr 85 16:38:53 GMT

Following are the just announced 1985 Hugo Nominations.  The awards
will be given at Worldcon; this year the con is in Melbourne,
Australia, the weekend of Aug. 22-26.

BEST NOVEL

NEUROMANCER--William Gibson (Ace)
JOB:  A COMEDY OF JUSTICE--Robert A. Heinlein (Del Rey)
THE INTEGRAL TREES--Larry Niven (Del Rey)
EMERGENCE--David R. Palmer (Bantam)
THE PEACE WARD--Vernor Vinge (Bluejay)

An aside: the Gibson and Palmer books are both first novels.

BEST NOVELLA

"Cyclops"--David Brin (Asimov's 3/84)
"Valentina"--Joseph R. Delaney & Marc Stiegler (Analog 5/84)
"Summer Solstice"--Charles L. Harness (Analog 5/84)
"Elementals"--Geoffrey A. Landis (Analog 12/84)
"PRESS ENTER"--John Varley (Asimov's 5/84)

BEST NOVELETTE

"Bloodchild"--Octavia Butler (Asimov's 6/84)
"The Lucky Strike"--Kim Stanley Robinson (Universe 14)
"Silicon Muse"--Hilbert Schenck (Analog 9/84)
"The Man Who Painted the Dragon Griaule"--Lucius Shepard
        (F&SF 12/84)
"The Weigher"--Eric Virdcoff & Marcia Martin (Analog 10/84)
"Blued Moon"--Connie Willis (Asimov's 1/84)
"Return to the Fold"--Timothy Zahn (Analog 9/84)

BEST SHORT STORY

"The Crystal Spheres"--David Brin (Analog 1/84)
"The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything"--George
        Alec Effinger (F&SF 10/84)
"Rory"--Steven Gould (Analog 4/84)
"Symphony for a Lost Traveler"--Lee Killough (Analog 3/84)
"Ridge Running"--Kim Stanley Robinson (F&SF 1/84)
"Salvador"--Lucius Shepard (F&SF 4/84)

BEST NON-FICTION

SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN BED--Harlan Ellison (Borgo)
THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA--Dr. Willis E. McNelley, ed. (Berkely/Putnam)
THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION, Patti Perret (Bluejay)
IN THE HEART OR IN THE HEAD:  AN ESSAY IN TIME TRAVEL--
        George Turner (Norstrilia)
WONDER'S CHILD:  MY LIFE IN SCIENCE FICTION--Jack Williamson (Bluejay)

BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION

DUNE
GHOSTBUSTERS
THE LAST STARFIGHTER
STAR TREK 3:  THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
2010

BEST PROFESSIONAL EDITOR

Terry Carr
Edward L. Ferman
Shawna McCarthy
Stanley Schmidt
George Scithers

BEST PROFESSIONAL ARTIST

Vincent DiFate
Tom Kidd
Val Lakey Lindahn
Barclay Shaw
Michael Whelan

JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD (not a Hugo, but awarded at the same time.
It goes to the best new writer)

Bradley Denton
Geoffrey Landis
Elissa Malcohn
Ian McDonald
Melissa Scott
Lucius Shepard

Nominees in this category are eligible for two years.  Shepard is
the only nominee this year in his second year of nomination.  The
others wil be eligible again next year.

If anyone is interested in the semi-pro and fan categories, send me
email--this message is getting awfully long.

Also, if anyone is interested in joining the convention (as either
an attending or a supporting member--both get to vote), send me
email and I'll send you that info.

------------------------------

From: unc!walker@topaz.arpa (Douglas Walker)
Subject: Re: Where are they?
Date: 16 Apr 85 13:45:17 GMT

>barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>...most estimates of the number of advanced technological
>civilizations that might presently exist in our galaxy are quite
>low. Even the most optimistic estimates seem to predict only the
>tiniest percent of the stars in our galaxy warm the homes of
>civilized beings....
>
>     Let us suppose that, as per Sagan and Shklovsky, only a few
>stars spawn high-tech civilizations that survive to at least a few
>centuries past our present level of technology. My question is,
>what is to prevent at least one of these civilizations from sending
>colonies out to neighboring star systems?

This may be nit-picking, but... When the Europeans expanded into the
New World, did they spawn a new civilization?  I think a colony of a
planet is more accurately considered part of the same civilization
as the parent.  Sagan and Shklovsky's reasoning applies to the
number of planets *producing* advanced civilizations, not *hosting*
advanced civilizations.

>... And what is to keep those colonies from spawning further
>colonies, etc., etc., out to the edges of the galaxy? What if this
>is, in fact, the present state of our galaxy?  Galactic
>overpopulation?

Possible.  The number of planets capable of supporting life is, at
least according to S/S, small, so...

>     This is not unreasonable. There is no reason to believe that
>we humans won't start doing it in a century or two...

Whoa! I don't see us doing anything of the sort!  I can see us
expanding into space, perhaps L5-type colonies, exploitation of
space for factories, etc.  BUT I don't see the US or any other
government funding a colony to another star without FTL.  There
would be little or no possible return from such a colony that could
not be gotten from a smaller scientific team.  The European powers
expected gold, spices, etc from the new world; this implies two-way
travel.  Sure, it took several months to get there, but that's
nothing compared to, say, 500 years to get to Alpha Centauri at 1240
kilometers/second average velocity.  And Alpha Centauri is only
4.something light years away.

>       Faster-than light propulsion is not required; many means
>(suspended animation, generation ships, near-light speeds) have
>been proposed whereby we could colonize nearby stars without FTL.
>Given O'Neil-type colonies, even stars without suitable planets
>could become the home stars of future colonies.

I've never heard of O'Neill-type colonies, but if they are colonies
with no home planet, why do we need to put them around other stars?
The only reason would be lack of room or resources here, and I don't
see us using up all the surface space of a 93,000,000 mile radius
sphere soon.  Read up on Dyson Spheres and Niven-type Ringworlds.
We might use up all easily accessible resources in the solar system
at some point, but certainly not in the next few millenia.

> How long would it take us to fill up the galaxy? Not as long as
>you think. Let's say that each human colony only spawns a new
>colony every 500 years. The number of human-settled star systems
>would then double every 500 years. At this rate, we populate the
>galaxy in *less* than the ~90,000 years it takes to *cross* the
>galaxy at the speed of light!

This assumes that when a colony is spawned, the sister colony
instantly arrives at its location.  This is not true even for the
first colony, as argued above, but it is even less true of the
original colonies.  The picture you give has a constantly expanding
sphere of colonied stars.  The planets at the center of this sphere
would be quite a ways from the edge of the sphere!  Their colonies
would need to travel thousands of light years instead of four or
five light years.  Another problem: if we are actually looking for
habitable planets rather than sowing planetless colonies, we must
work around the center of the galaxy.  The center of the galaxy
consists of population I stars, which are much older than our sun (
a population II star).  These population I stars were formed when
there were far fewer heavy elements in the universe - indeed, the
heavy elements the earth was formed from probably were produced in
the hearts of a pop I star.  pop I stars will have no habitable
planets.  Thus, the sphere is even more skewed.  I also question the
ability of a brand-new colony to reproduce in only 500 years (as
well as its motivation to) but that's another story.

All in all, I don't see non-FTL (STL?) colonization of other solar
systems.  But then again, if some sort of CHEAP propulsion is
developed that would allow private organizations to try... and some
sort of near-perfect suspended animation or balanced ship-sized
ecosystem is developed....

I sure hope I'm wrong!

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 24 Apr 1985 07:40:40-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: ATLANTA BOOK STORE ADDRESSES

Addresses for some Atlanta book stores:

Science Fiction & Mystery Book Shop
752 1/2  N. Highland Ave. NE
Atlanta, GA  30306
(404) 875-7326
(New books/magazines, run by Mark Stevens)

Yesterday Tomorrow-Inc
1923 Peachtree Road NE
Atlanta, GA  30305
(404) 355-4895
(This is a very good rare & used bookstore, they mostly deal in sf
with some main stream stuff. Run by Grover Deluca, Grover has some
good contacts and has a good record of finding books for people.)

Book Nook
3342 Clairmont
Atlanta, GA  30341
(404) 633-1328
(Used & new books (limited new selections) with fair selection of
sf. They do stamp book nook & address inside all of their used
books, (I hate this myself). They do carry a lot of Donald Grant
stuff)
                       That's all for now,
                                          Ken Cobb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Apr 85 1533-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #138
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Anthony & Lee & Wilhelm &
                         Native Tongue & The 1985 Hugos & 
                         A Request,
                 Films - Wizards (3 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai,
                 Television - Dr. Who Convention & Outer Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hou2h!mr@topaz.arpa (M.RINDSBERG)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 25 Apr 85 20:43:38 GMT

> Does anyone know when "With Hourglass in Hand" by Piers Anthony
> will be out in paperback? (I believe that's the title, or at least
> close) It's the second of his current series 'Incarnations of
> Immortality' and about someone who gets the job of Chronos, keeper
> of time, etc. etc. The first book was about an average Joe in a
> future world who gets the job of Death and was not bad.  It would
> have been great if he hadn't preached for so long about
> euthanasia.  This seems to be the only serious SF that Anthony
> wishes to write (do NOT send replies about "BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT"
> or the Xanth series - I could flame about those for a month and a
> half) If you like Anthony's stuff at all, do yourself a favor and
> read "Macroscope" or the Cluster 'trilogy' (it's at four books
> now, I believe). These blow those punny fantasy potboilers right
> out of the water.

The book has not come out in paperback yet, but I check every week
at the two local bookstores (WB & BD). I don't know when they should
be coming out.  Also the name of the book is "Bearing an Hourglass"

                                                Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 03:31:57 pst
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Unquiet Dead

Kill The Dead, Tanith Lee, 1980, DAW paperback

This book is in my opinion, by far the best of Tanith Lee's fantasy.
If you've enjoyed the Cyrion stories, or the Quest for the White
Witch, you wont want to miss this.

It is the story of Parl Dro, exorcist.  His father had been a
soldier in some small border war big enough to kill him, and his
mother had died a while later, when he was about four years of age.
When he was ten he was already working the fields.

But as Parl Dro grows old he takes another name, and makes a trade
dispeling the half dead.  He comes to be feared by ghosts and their
lovers.  Ghostly existence requires a physical link in the living
world, and when that link is transformed the ghost is released.
This is the nature of Parl Dro's exorcisms.

Parl Dro seeks the Ghyste Mortua, nexus of netherworld existence,
and this book is the tale of that quest.

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Kate Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS
Date: 24 Apr 85 18:12:17 GMT

> WELCOME, CHAOS (Berkley, 1985, 297pp.) is the most fun novel I've
> read by Kate Wilhelm since the excellent WHERE LATE THE SWEET
> BIRDS SANG,

Hooray! I'm glad to see Wilhelm has a new novel out. I'll definitely
have to add it to my reading list. "Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang"
was indeed excellent; I recommend it to anyone who loves a gripping
plot and convincing characterization in SF.

Unfortunately, I wasn't nearly as satisfied with "Juniper Time,"
which (I think) was her next novel after "Where Late..." The
characters were well-drawn, but I found the plot a bit stale (yet
another First Contact story a la Lem's "His Master's Voice" or
DeLillo's "Ratner's Star"). Anyone out there agree or disagree? Any
votes for other Wilhelm books?

> It's sort of a pity that Knight's latest novel, CV, doesn't have
> more of a Wilhelm influence in it, or so it seems to me.

You mean you didn't like "Love Boat Zombies??" :-) I read the
serialization of "CV" in F & SF, and was less than impressed. Knight
must be hard-up for plotlines. Let's see, we've got this really big
boat that can submerge and steer along the ocean currents; let's
throw in a few subplots like they do in the B movies (hey! a
professor being stalked by a cold-blooded assassin would be just
right!!). A-and the perfect touch would be something REALLY WEIRD,
like a mind parasite from outer space, and it can take over the
people on the boat one by one and then finally at the end the good
guys WIN!! Boy, I bet them SF fans will really eat this one up.

For sure.
                                     --Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: milford!bill@topaz.arpa (bill)
Subject: Native Tongue review (Spoiler?)
Date: 25 Apr 85 18:17:15 GMT

This might be old -- the book has a date of August 1984. Sorry if it
was discussed before.

_Native_Tongue_'s author has a doctorate in Linguistics and the
story seems to reflect much current Language Theory. The main area
of action, however, is the war between the sexes - an imagined 25th
amendment to the Constitution is given as "No female citizen of the
United States shall be allowed to serve, to participate in any
capacity in the scholarly or scientific professions, to hold
employment ... The natural limitations of women being a clear and
present danger ...."

Within this world of religious fanaticism and sexual oppression, the
earth has somehow made contact with various alien races and there is
a need to make linguistic contact and understanding with these
races. One solution is to "interface" infants (male and female) to
the "aliens in residence (AIRIES)", to have the infants absorb the
aliens' languages and cultures. New concepts foreign to the normal
earthly-thought-forms can arise and provide for widening of the
earth's perspective. The mainstream of the plot is that the women
linguists (those who had been interfaced as infants to AIRIES)
develop their own language "Laadan" and become 'alien' to their male
oppressors.

I noted (or imagined -- my own background is Math and Comp Sci) a
number of tie-ins to Chomsky and (French) Structuralism: that the
human mind is structured toward particular grammars and 'reality' is
structured to accord with these grammars. What would happen when
humans encounter aliens whose minds are structured differently?
Could communication occur? Would there be changes (permanent?) in
the Weltanschauung of both sides? Would humans who could communicate
become 'alien'? These questions are raised as side thoughts in
_Native_Tongue_ and are indeed quite thought provoking.

Another side-idea presented but not explicitly followed up is: what
is the perception of the alien who is maintained so to impress its
language upon an infant -- would it perceive itself as a captive or
a teacher? would it feel itself under duress in exposing its
language? Would it 'sabotage' the infants' minds to protect its
language and culture?

In a round-about way these subthemes are tied into the main story
and perhaps are used to indicate how alien men and women are to each
other.

There's only a few complaints -- the 'battle between the sexes'
theme seems rather too black-white (but then isn't a +/- bifurcation
central to structuralism? (:-)). Also there are the usual
science-fiction misinterpretations of Goedel's Theorem and
uncomputability results.

One last thing, "an early grammar and dictionary of Laadan are
available ... write to Laadan, Route 4, Box 192-E, Huntsville AR
72740 ... enclose a stamped, self-addressed envelope".
Disclaimer:I have no idea if this might be a put on.

------------------------------

From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA
Subject: Re: Hugo Award Nominations
Date: 26 Apr 85 00:21:02 GMT

>Following are the just announced 1985 Hugo Nominations.
>BEST NOVEL
>
>NEUROMANCER--William Gibson (Ace)
>JOB:  A COMEDY OF JUSTICE--Robert A. Heinlein (Del Rey)
>THE INTEGRAL TREES--Larry Niven (Del Rey)
>EMERGENCE--David R. Palmer (Bantam)
>THE PEACE WARD--Vernor Vinge (Bluejay)

That should be "The Peace War", not "Ward." Being amazed that I've
read them all, I can't help but comment. Surely, those don't
represent the best sf novels of the year '84? The books are all
good, but the best of the bunch (TPW) isn't anything special.  Could
someone enlighten me as to the prerequisites a novel needs to be
eligible for a Hugo? Copyright date? Publication date? In which
country?

        Thanx,
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 26 April 85 10:34-EDT
From: JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: What was that book again?

Yes, yet another 'What was that book' question... A story about a
young college student involved in an experiment with hallucinogenic
drugs for ESP ability, but when under the drugs influence, he passes
through a certain 'gate' into another world (only as a vaporous
visitor under the drugs influence).  Later he discovers that if he
can materially locate the 'gate' then he can physically pass into
this other world.  The story adds a few evil characters who are
trying to gain control of the 'gates' in order to invade other
sections of the universe.  It has been quite a few years and I can't
seem to relocate the book.  It was by a female author and I believe
was along the lines of _The_Worldhouse_ or else _The_House_Between_
the_Worlds_ or something like that.  It was such an interesting
story that I've had a relapse of wanting to re-read it.
                          -- Jeff Kell, Administrative Computing
                             Univ of Tennessee at Chattanooga
                      Arpa:  JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
                       Bit:  JEFF@UTCVM
                        CS:  JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 85 09:56:36 EST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS
From: Brenda <Joseph.Henr@Xerox.ARPA>

<< come on--what girl wants to see a movie in which there is only
one female character>>

I don't know, but this woman, for one, still considers WIZARDS one
of her all time favorite movies.  I never even noticed that there
was only one female character, scantily clad or not, until you just
mentioned it.  The male/female character ratio is not something
that's of upmost important when I'm watching a movie, but their
relationships, chracters, etc. And I thought she was a pretty good
character.(My best friend (an active, ardent feminist) considers
WIZARDS one of the best movies ever made and was the one who took me
to see it.)

 <<bad guys are Nazis...Bakshi couldn't make up his own bad guys>>

I feel that this is a trivialization of what I thought was a good
statement that the movie made.  The bad guys weren't just nazis --
the point was that they had no cause to fight for and therefore,
even though they were much stronger and better armed, were no match
for the "good" side who was fighting for their homes, lives, loves,
etc.  Fighting for their leader (who didn't do a lot for them to
make them brim over with loyalty) to fulfill his kicks wasn't enough
to make them stand up against the "strength" of the good side.  They
needed a strong motivation and the use of Hitler's propaganda was a
nice touch because who ever did propaganda better for the same
reasons and to the same end??  I mean, who else could convince an
entire nation to not only allow and condone concentration/
extermination camps, but fight the rest of the world for the right
to use them?

I like the thought that the strength of your convictions can make
you strong and that lack in them makes you weak and ineffectual.  It
also frightens me to watch the power of propaganda like Hitler's,
but I think its important to remind ourselves of this fact, lest we
allow something like that to happen again.  I think Wizards did a
good job of showing both of these ideas.

~Brenda

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS
Date: 24 Apr 85 17:57:18 GMT

> From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
> I enjoyed WIZARDS. Bakshi is a good storyteller, and I remember
> being thoroughly entertained. The animation was, of course, not up
> to what Disney or even Warner Bros. used to crank out, but at the
> time of release Bakshi was probably doing the best animation
> (measured in quality/kilobucks/minute) of anyone in the business.
>
> HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a
> character created by the late Vaughn Bode. Bode was probably best
> known for a delightfully disgusting creature named "Cheech Wizard"
> that was published regularly in the early '70s in the National
> Lampoon, until Bode's unfortunate demise.
>
> It was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and
> I suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it (I never was
> aware of any legal action). Stealing ideas from dead artists seems
> ghoulish to me, and my personal respect for Bakshi dropped quite a
> bit.  (Insert here the usual disclaimer about sketchy memories of
> things and people in past decades.)
> "I think we're all Bozos on this bus" ------

Yes, I loved that movie as well.  And yes, it was a direct ripoff of
Vaughn's.  Not that they (Barbara, Vaughn's wife, and Mark, their
son...) don't need the money, but according to Mark, it mainly get's
annoying after hearing the 40th person at a SF/comic convention say
"Oh, yeah!  Those are characters from wizards!!".

Since Mark's a friend of mine, I thought I'd say that his work is
being published in EPIC magazine (at this very moment, I think).

Gary

------------------------------

From: dspo!tallman@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: WIZARDS
Date: 25 Apr 85 16:26:13 GMT

One thing that bothered me about WIZARDS was that the first few
minutes of the film were not animated.  Instead, the camera pans
over some uncolored, unfinished sketches.  It seemed that Bakshi had
gotten tired of drawing or had a low animation budget.  Perhaps it
was meant to indicate the dim past as a background to the main
story, but I still did not like it.

C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL  or
{ucbvax!unmvax,ihnp4}!lanl!dspo!tallman
Los Alamos National Laboratory - E-10/Data Systems
Los Alamos, New Mexico  -  (505) 667-8495

------------------------------

Subject: Buckaroo Banzai theme music
Date: 25 Apr 85 22:03:07 EST (Thu)
From: obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA

        Someone some days back claimed off-handedly that the closing
theme music to "Buckaroo Banzai" was from Dave Grusin's
"Night-Lines" album, specifically, the cut "Kitchen Dance".  Well,
no.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  I just bought the album, and while it's
similar music (in fact, has the theme from "St. Elsewhere" on it),
the BB theme music is nowhere on it.  Does anyone out there have
better information on where the theme music may be found?

------------------------------

From: watarts!dmak@topaz.arpa (Derwin Mak)
Subject: Jon Pertwee confirmed as Who Party 7 Guest
Date: 18 Apr 85 21:18:49 GMT

Re: Doctor Who Convention (Who Party 7)  -- Munch Munch

CONFIRMED guest of honour:  Jon Pertwee

Who Party 7 will be held at the Valhalla Inn, Kitchener, Ontario
May 25 and May 26, 1985.  For more information write to:
                        Who Party 7
                        104 Kingston Crescent
                        Kitchener, Ontario
                        Canada N2B 2T7

Or send mail to {decvax, utzoo, ihnp4}!watmath!watarts!dmak

Membership is limited so send for yours soon!
Single day memberships will be sold on the day of the convention
only if space permits.

Dealers welcome!

Tables are 6'X 2.5' and will include table cloths.  American dealers
please check with us and Customs offices of both countries.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 13:34 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS>
Subject: More "Outer Limits" questions

1) Does anyone know of any way to purchase printed copies of the
   original stories, shooting scripts, etc. for "Outer Limits"
   episodes?  (perhaps from the production company, whomever it
   was?)

2) Does anyone know who wrote the story and/or screenplay for the
   two-part episode "The Inheritors"?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 85 1246-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #139
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bradley & Grinnell & Hogan &
                        Kim Stanley Robinson & 
                        Time Loop Story (3 msgs),
                Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Star Wars,
                Television - Twilight Zone & Dr. Who,
                Miscellaneous - O'Neill Colonies & 
                        Societies Without Morality &
                        Languages

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 85 14:30 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: _The_House_Between_Worlds_
To: JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

_The_House_Between_Worlds_, by Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Since you read it a few years ago, it was probably the Doubleday
edition.  I /think/ the paperback edition that's now available has
been revised and expanded somewhat.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: hpfcms!mpm@topaz.arpa (mpm)
Subject: Re: What is the name of this book?
Date: 15 Apr 85 23:30:00 GMT

     The name of the book is "Edge of Time" by David Grinnell.  Ace
Books published it in the late 60s.  I too found it engrossing.  In
fact, I recently reread it and found that it remained a good read.
(You may find a copy in a used book store; there are lots of such
shops in Denver.)  By the way, my old Ace books show that Grinnell
wrote another book called "Across Time" (I think), which I've never
read.
                -- Mike "those were the golden years of SF" McCarthy
                   { hplabs | ihnp4 } hpfcla!hpfcms!mpm

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 19:59:12 -0200
To: jon%g.mfenet@lll-mfe.arpa ,
To:     pugh%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan

I am a devoted Hogan fan, and I think he's the only writer today
whose writing consistently has all the virtues of good SF; still, I
must acknowledge some of his limitations.

> "Thrice upon a Time" ... also had a very logical and consistent
> theory of time and the conservation of everything.

"Thrice upon a Time" is the most ambitious attempt I've ever seen
at constructing a real hard-core theory of time, and Hogan certainly
deserves credit for what he did. Still, the theory eventually
becomes so complex that Hogan gets a little confused and starts
contradicting himself.

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

For example, remember the explanation of why they never wrote a
program which sends a message to the past if it didn't get it, and
doesn't send it if it got it? The explanation is: they actually did
write such a program, which trapped them in an endless cycle, which
was broken by the low-probability event of them never thinking of
writing that program.  But this just doesn't fit in with the rest of
the theory or the events - not sending a message should NOT prevent
you from getting it.

                    ****** END OF SPOILER ******

> By the way, be sure to read _The_Genesis_Machine_ by Mr. Hogan.
> It is great.  The best solution to detente I have ever read,

Get serious! Hogan's political ideas are so childish that I'm sure
he doesn't believe them himself. "The Genesis Machine" is his worst
from this aspect (as well as from the aspect of characters; Hogan
got much better in later novels).

                    ****** SUPER SPOILER ******

First of all, Hogan seems to advocate a dictatorship by the
scientists (remember how the president suspected Clifford's plans,
and the reason why he still let him proceed?). Second, the epilogue
is totally unconvincing; the only two possible endings I can see
are: 1. The USSR manages to send an agent to cut off the J-Bomb's
power supply; this has the result of destroying the USA army, and
USSR now easily takes over the world (and then, perhaps, proceeds to
make Clifford into a national hero). 2. The USA moves all its
military instalations to new locations, and then cuts off the
J-Bomb's power supply and builds another one; however, this gave the
USSR time to build a J-Bomb of its own, so the "Balance of Power" is
not solved, but just continues forever.

        Eyal Mozes
BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccs019@topaz.arpa (Allan McKillop)
Subject: Kim S. Robinson
Date: 26 Apr 85 03:59:39 GMT

Has anyone out there read any books by Kim Stanley Robinson?  If so,
what did you think?  I think he only has two books out (Ice Henge
and another whose name escapes me), but I may be wrong.  Thanks...

Allan McKillop
(... ucbvax!ucdavis!minnie:ccs019)

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Apr 85 11:47:22-PST
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #135

Heinlein wrote such a story. I forget the name, but it may have been
"mugwump" -- it appeared in 3XH, I believe. This poor sucker gets
caught in a temporal loop that affects everything but his
consciousness -- he knows he is looping but can't do anything about
it. THe story is kind of silly, it begins when the hero accidentally
dials a MUgwump telephone number rather than a MUrray Hill number.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Apr 85 13:14:40-EST
From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Story request, SFL V10#129

Given the description of the disaster and the surprising discovery
by one of the main characters, I think the story where the people
keep living the same day over and over is actually "The Tunnel Under
the World", by Frederik Pohl (at least a story by that name and
description is in the copy of "The Best of Frederik Pohl" sitting in
front of me....).

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..."
Date: 26 Apr 85 21:34:10 GMT

naiman@pegasus.UUCP (Ephrayim J. Naiman) writes:
>All I remember is that some experiment went haywire and the world
>keeps reliving the same day over and over again.  The people spend
>the first part of every day remembering their situation through
>hints they left themselves the day before.

As you've already discovered, there are several books that match
this vague description.  However, the one I thought of when I read
Ephrayim's original query was the short story "Absent Thee from
Felicity Awhile" by Somtow Sucharitkul.  (This story was discussed
to death in this newsgroup about two years ago.)

Because this story is not easy to find, I include a (**SPOILER**)
plot summary.  This is from memory, so I may be off on a few
details.

In the story, Mankind has agreed to live one day over and over for
ten thousand years.  During this time we will be observed by the
alien equivalent of sophomore sociology students.  In exchange for
this, we will be given membership in the Galactic Union,
immortality, and all sorts of other High Tech Good Things.

For an hour each day, everybody gets to live a real life.  One can
communicate with the aliens by talking to special lamp posts,
although few people do.  (In the main character's time zone, the
"hour off" comes very early in the morning, so most people are in
bed.)

The main character is an actor who is playing a bad Horatio (??) to
an equally bad Hamlet in a seedy theatre.  Each day, he must relive
a fight with his girlfriend and a particularly bad performance.  On
his "hour off," the actor meets a woman who is killed in a train
wreck each day.  The actor wonders what will become of her at the
end of the ten thousand years, because she is dead at the end of the
day.

The actor also discovers that through a supreme effort of will he
can change his actions during the day, and that each change becomes
part of the scene repeated the next day.  Thus, over the course of
months or years, he can change his day into something different.
Near the end of the story, Hamlet is shot by his disgruntled wife
(mistress?).  The main character attempts to convince the woman from
the train that she can change her day and avoid being killed.  She
refuses to make the attempt, believing that she is doomed and cannot
escape her fate.

The story is a powerful and memorable comment on the ancient
question of free will vs. determinism.  As I recall, Somtow was a
new talent when this one appeared (1979 in Asimov's, just as a
guess) and he has gone on to bigger and better things.  (PLUG:
Somtow is Guest of Honor at this year's Orycon in Portland.  Write
me for details.)

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 22:39:16 est
From: Sande Wallfesh <wallfesh%uconn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Bukaroo Banzai

I just saw _Bukaroo_Banzai_ and was quite amused. The end of the
film said that another was forthcoming.  Does anyone know more?

Sande Wallfesh
EE/CS Dept.
University of Connecticut
wallfesh%uconn.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 85 14:49:54 pst
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Theme Music

obrien@CSNET-SH writes:
> Someone some days back claimed off-handedly that the closing theme
> music to "Buckaroo Banzai" was from Dave Grusin's "Night-Lines"
> album . . . Well, no. . . the BB theme music is nowhere on it.
> Does anyone out there have better information on where the theme
> music may be found?

Having just [re]seen the movie last night (midnight show at the
Rialto in LA), I remember that Michael Boddicker was credited for
the music.  I didn't notice any other music credits, and the end
theme is certainly similar to the other music in the film.  I've
heard of Boddicker before; a quick check reveals that he played
synthesizer on Rickie Lee Jones' first album.  If there really isn't
a BB soundtrack album (I find this hard to believe, although I
haven't looked), I would suggest looking in the Jazz or Electronic
section of any finer record store . . .

                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]

PS: Has anyone heard anything about a sequel?
PPS: A lesser-known Caltech tradition is that those cannon-shell-
     shaped metal cones sometimes found at the corners of buildings
     are really space aliens in a pupa state, and that they must be
     regularly kicked to disrupt the growth of the alien inside and
     prevent it from emerging to wreak havoc.  Well, in the Red
     Lectroids' nest the things were all over the place (albeit the
     entire cone, not just 3/4 of it).  I am severely freaked out.
     Does anyone else know about this legend, or what the cones were
     doing in the nest?

------------------------------

From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: Next Star Wars Movie
Date: 26 Apr 85 22:46:56 GMT

        Has anybody heard anything about this??? Lucas is being very
quiet again.  Seems like every time that guy clams up, there's
another project in the works.  I've heard that he's planning all 3
of the first episodes (the prequel) as one movie... Any ideas?

Mike Stalnaker  UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike
                AT&T:202-376-2593
                USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213

------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Apr 85 16:19:25-PST
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: TZ

Here's something I saw in the April 24 edition of the San Jose
Mercury, in ``The Grapevine'' section of the paper:

Producer Phil DeGuere has purchased from Rod Serling's estate the
rights to Serling's "The Night of the Meek" short story - for use in
the resurrected version of Serling's vintage "The Twilight Zone"
series.  Believing the upcoming CBS show will only be as successful
as its writing, he's also buying up works by world-class science and
psychological fiction authors.  Already secured is Stephen King's
"Gramma" short story, Arthur C. Clarke's "The Star," Robert
Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps," Michael Cassutt's "Red Snow," Wes
Cravens's "Perfect Strangers," and Robert R. McCannon's
"Nightcrawlers."  There will also be a translation of Ray Bradbury's
"The Burning Man" and "The Elevator" - and an original Bradbury has
written for the show.  Also, segments created by Harlan Ellison,
who's serving as the "Zone's" supervising writer.

Anyone know how reliable these rumors are?  I assume the new
``Zone'' is scheduled for the `85 fall season.  Anyone know whether
they've started production on the series yet?  Who'll be the
narrator(s)?
                                Haruka Takano

------------------------------

Subject: Romana  (slight spoiler?)
Date: 28 Apr 85 04:27:33 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

A while ago I got several corrections after I guessed that Romana's
full name was Romanadvoradnalunda.  The right spelling, I was told,
is Romanadvoratrelundar.  But hearing her introduce herself in "the
Rebos Operation" , I could not make it out as the second.  It
sounded to be the first.  Again, in "Stones of Blood", when the
Doctor calls her as a witness in his defence against the Megara:
"Miss Romanadvoratnalunda" (or lundar, allowing for the silent "r").
I was beginning to wonder.  Then, the other day, I looked at
"Warrior's Gate", with the regenerated Romana, and she introduces
herself to the slavers as "Romanadvoratrelundar".

Somebody slipped.

Any inside info. on what happened?
                                        Alastair Milne
                                        (UC Irvine, Calif.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat 27 Apr 85 13:24:22-PST
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: V10 #137--O'Neill colonies =~

Douglas Walker writes:
>I can see us expanding into space, perhaps L5-type colonies,
>exploitation of space for factories, etc.

and later

>>Given O'Neil-type colonies, even stars without suitable planets
>>could become the home stars of future colonies.
>I've never heard of O'Neill-type colonies

Sure you have: The Lagrange-point colonies ARE O'Neill-type
colonies...
                                        Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust)
Date: 27 Apr 85 06:33:35 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>>  Suppose you had a world full of creatures who had no morality at
>> all.  What would they (and their society) be like?
>>                                      -- Scott Turner
>I recommend James Blish's A CASE OF CONCIENCE, if you haven't read
>it.  An excellent treatment of (among other things) exactly this
>point.
>                       -- SKZB

Another interesting book along this line is _A Pity About Earth_, I
don't recall the author, but it was half of an old ACE DOUBLE with
R. A. Lafferty's _Space Chantey_ on the other side.  The people in
this book were the most completely amoral characters I can ever
remember reading about, and there was a sort of strange fascination
in watching them live.

Ted Nolan             ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206    allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz.arpa (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: Native Tongue review (Spoiler?)
Date: 27 Apr 85 15:31:06 GMT

> One last thing, "an early grammar and dictionary of Laadan are
> available ... write to Laadan, Route 4, Box 192-E, Huntsville AR
> 72740 ... enclose a stamped, self-addressed envelope".
> Disclaimer: I have no idea if this might be a put on.

This is no put-on.  I've seen the grammer/dictionary book.  It costs
a bit ($8.95, I think), so you really have to be interested to get
it.  Suzzette Hayden Elgin, the author, put a lot of work into
Laadan.

There was a panel on Laadan and women's language in general at the
last NorWesCon (Seattle in March).  Some interesting thoughts were
discussed.

Ariel Shattan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Apr 85 1338-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #140
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Apr 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:

        Books - Brust & Heinlein & King & Powers (2 msgs) &
                Juvenile Stories & Title Requests,
        Films - Mad Max & Buckaroo Banzai & Dragonslayer,
        Television - Outer Limits,
        Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 1985 15:35 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
Subject: Brokedown Palace(s)

Some time ago, when Steven Brust announced his next book, "Brokedown
Palace", he asked if there were still any 'deadheads' out on the
net. Never having read any of his works, but interested that he
wrote a book with the same title as one of my favorite songs by the
Grateful Dead, I then borrowed "Yendi" and "JHEREG" from a friend at
work.  I thought the books were a lot of fun, but I learned (the
hard way) not to start reading a Brust book late in the evening if I
had to go to work the next day. Very hard to put down.

The following may have little to do with reality (but then neither
did the Dead in the '60s):

        "Going to leave this Brokedown Palace,
         On my hands and my knees, I will roll,roll,roll.
         ...
         In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head,
         Listening to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul."

                        excerpt from Brokedown Palace,
                        written by
                        Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia

Jerry Garcia is the lead guitarist of the band. Could the name
JHEREG be derived from JHERE Garcia ? A hunter and a jhereg? Hmmmm.

Loiosh was the jhereg that Vlad (the hunter) is friends with in
Brust's YENDI and JHEREG. Phil Lesh plays bass in the abovementioned
band.  Any connection?

        "Do you know your part, Loiosh?"
        "Just doing what comes naturally,boss."

Methinks SKZB is also a deadhead.

                        Greg Goodknight<good@ACC.ARPA>
                        Hardware Bozo
                        Advanced Computer Communications
                        a.k.a.
                        A Computer Company

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY
Date: 27 Apr 85 06:52:28 GMT

Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>The thing that I found most annoying about FRIDAY was that it
>seemed as thought Heinlein had an idea for a novel, and wrote it,
>but he couldn't end the story well. Then he remembered this little
>short story idea that he couldn't sell (for good reason) so he
>changed the short story around a bit and made it into the ending
>for the novel.
>
>I am not saying that this was how it really happened, just that
>this is how I imagined it happening after reading the book! Did
>anyone else notice the huge discontinuity?

Another thing that has been worrying me a little lately, it that the
ending of _Friday_ (starting with her off planet mission I think)
had a fatal plot flaw in it.  The reason it worries me, is because I
can't remember what it is now!  But I'm not kidding, at the time I
caught it, I saw that it made the motivation for her last mission
completely implausible. Did anyone else see it, and WHAT THE HECK
WAS IT?!

Ted Nolan             ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206    allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

------------------------------

From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban)
Subject: Stephen King Directs!
Date: 26 Apr 85 19:15:44 GMT

        NEWSFLASH! (via USA TODAY for April 26th, 1985)

        Stephen King will direct his first motion picture for Dino
DeLaurentiis starting in July at Dino's studio in North Carolina.
The name of the film is "Maximum Overdrive", and is based on King's
short story "Trucks", another story from the NIGHT SHIFT collection.
I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems unwise to me for
King to be using this property, which is so thematically similar to
"Christine". I hope he pulls it off.

        In other news, THINNER just became a #1 bestseller in the NY
Times Book Review. Anyone want to lay bets as to how soon it gets
snapped up by Hollywood (even though it appears to present
difficulties as far as weight for the lead -- maybe DeNiro could
play Billy Halleck)?
                                         Rick Urban
                                         AT&T Network Systems
                                         Columbus, Ohio
                                         ...!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: DINNER AT THE DEVIANT'S PALACE; Powers; Blaylock;
Subject: Ashbless
Date: 25 Apr 85 14:14:03 GMT

Just a point of interest in this matter -- in the Anubis Gates, you
may recall that the protagonist tried to pretend he was an American
who had just arrived in England via boat, but was shown to be a liar
when he couldn't remember the name of the boat.  The person who was
quizzing him on this looked up an appropriate boat so that he could
make a better lie the next time.  The name of the boat?  The
Blaylock.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: <bang!crash!jerryh@Nosc>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 09:39:06 PST
To: bang!g.zeep%mit-eecs@mit-mc
Subject: Powers book(s)

Sorry, WZ, but I'm sitting here with a copy of "The Skies
Discrowned" next to me and I can't find one reference to "Epitaph in
Rust" anywhere on it. We're definitely talking about the same story
judging by your description, but I have no idea where you're getting
the EIR title from.  Kelly Freas artwork on the cover, man with the
golden ear, etc...  but not the same title.

On other subjects: "Deviants" looked to me like something from the
"box of rejected manuscripts" that most authors have lying around.
Very disjointed story.  After reading "Anubis Gates" I find it hard
to believe that "Deviants" has the signs of progressiveness and
continuity (as far as quality).  I really a book of poetry from
"William Ashbless", whomever he/she may be.  I'd love to stick in to
post the opening poem from AG here on SF-LOVERS, but I don't think
copyright laws would allow me to do so.

Looks like I'm going to have to hunt for that second Laser press
book...

Jerry Hewet  {bang!crash!jerryh@nosc}

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85  9:17:41 EST
From: Joel B. Levin <levin@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: Re: obscure juveniles
To: sf-lovers@rutgers.arpa
Cc: ihnp4!hpfcla!fritz@bbncca.arpa

>The second one might have been called "Rusty's Spaceship". . . .
>they go cruising around the solar system trying to figure out where
>our friendly ET came from.  Magic pills take care of little
>problems like vacuum decompression, oxygen & food starvation, etc.

I, too, have been trying to find more about some juveniles I read in
elementary school.  Gary Fritz's request goads me to make one of my
own along the same lines, although what phase I may be going through
to arouse this interest I do not care to guess.

I have been trying to remember about a certain series of 'novels'
(i.e.  4th grade equivalent) about a peculiar inhabited planet which
orbits Earth or orbits the sun near Earth.  A very special type of
lens was required to see this planet, which was why real astronomers
didn't know about it; but somehow a kid found such a lens or ran
into a visitor from this planet (whom I remember as a nice little
man) and got involved in various problems on this planet.

Gary's mention of little magic pills reminds me of something in this
vein, but it may have been another book I recall.  Nothing else in
his synopsis rings a bell, unfortunately, but I am interested in
being reminded of any stories which featured such pills.

        Thanks / JBL

Arpa:   Levin@bbn
Usenet: ...{ihnp4,[others?]}!bbncca!levin

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Apr 85 07:55:59-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Title requests

Hogan's short story is called

        Silver Shoes for a Princess

and was published in Destinies, Vol 1 No 5, Oct/Dec 1979.  Judging
by the copyright notice, that was the first publication.

The story where everyone lives "the same day" over and over seemed
familiar to me, and Mr Ayres' description is accurate.  It is

        Algis Budrys:  The End of Summer
        Astounding Science Fiction, Vol XI No 4, April 1955

(at least, that was the British Edition publication).  The plot is

        "The generator broadcast a signal which enabled body
         cells to repair themselves with one hundred percent
         perfection. ... But, of course, that included brain
         cells. ... Amnesia was the price of immortality."

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: rayssd!m1b@topaz.arpa
Subject: Mad Max (I) query
Date: 25 Apr 85 17:16:27 GMT

        The movie, Mad Max, as shown on cable, seems to be dubbed
into 'American'.  I've seen it on both HBO and the Movie Channel
with this dubbing.  To confirm this, just listen to Mel Gibson's
voice in Mad Max.  Does the movie exist in the US without this
dubbing, i.e. with the original 'Australian' language?  Watching the
dubbed Mad Max is rather grating on the nerves!  They must use the
same voices that are used to dub spaghetti westerns!  Thanks.

Joe Barone,  {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b
Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Box 330, Portsmouth, RI  02871

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: Bukaroo Banzai
Date: 27 Apr 85 23:14:50 GMT

> From: Sande Wallfesh <wallfesh%uconn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> I just saw _Bukaroo_Banzai_ and was quite amused. The end of the
> film said that another was forthcoming.  Does anyone know more?

This has been posted before, but I think it's worth doing again; BB
was the most entertaining thing I had seen in a theater in years.

If you liked the movie, and would like more information on Buckaroo
and his entourage, join the BLUE BLAZE IRREGULARS, the official
Buckaroo Banzai fan club.  Join by writing to

        The Banzai Institute
        c/o 20th Century Fox
        P.O. Box 900
        Beverly Hills, CA 90213

You'll receive a nice packet full of information about the film and
the characters, with a few souvenir goodies thrown in.  Rumor has it
that the volume of mail received will have some bearing on whether
the second movie is made, so WRITE!

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28,
Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712

-- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
      {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: DragonSlayer
Date: 25 Apr 85 18:30:10 GMT

> From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
> I and several friends of mine enjoyed DragonSlayer a whole lot.
> We saw it 3 times.  It was a joint effort of Parmount and Walt
> Disney Productions.  I have the book, but have never had the
> chance yet to read it.
>
> Of course the effects and Dragon were great - it was done by ILM
> (Industrial Light and Magic) - (George) Lucas Film's group.
>
> Now if only I had a VTR...

Yes, the Mechanical Effects (the full scale dragon head and baby
dragon) were done by ILM, but the hard-to-notice-because-they-are-
so-subtle visual effects were done by VCE (Visual Concept
Engineering).

Like, for instance, when two swords come together and they FLASH,
not only did they do the flash itself, but they also added the lens
flare that a flash would have created (if it there had been a flash
from clashing swords).

They also did the resurrection of the wizard sequence as well as
many other shorter shots.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 85 22:45:52 EST
From: Elliott <BUCHHOLZ@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Re:More "Outer Limits" questions

In order:

1) I'm not quite sure about this one.  Many SF Fan Clubs and/or ST
    Fan Clubs include scripts and such as part of merchandising.
    I've seen on several occasions Outer Limits scripts as well as
    hundreds of others offered.  Check out different organizations.

2)  Much easier.  "The Inheritors" was written by:
    Sam Newman, Seeleg Lester, and Ed Adamson.
    Directed by James Goldstone.

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: Computers in SF
Date: 26 Apr 85 08:57:05 GMT

RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes:
> I have not seen anyone mention "BOLO" by Keith Laumer.  Bolos are
> fighting machines that resemble tanks but are intelligent and
> autonomous.  The book consists of short stories that loosely
> follow the development of Bolos.  Memorable short stories for me
> were "The Last Command" and "War Relic".  Good emotional stuff.

There was a very nice maze game for the Apple II called BOLO. In it,
you negotiated a maze while various machines attacked you. The
object was to destroy the enemy power supply. What made it really
interesting was that the enemy machines had different
characeristics. Some seemed to be able to track you better, others
seemed to 'know' how to box you in.  Interesting game...

Sean Casey
UUCP:   {hasmed,cbosgd}!ukma!sean  or  ucbvax!anlams!ukma!sean
ARPA:   ukma!sean<@ANL-MCS>  or  sean%ukma.uucp@anl-mcs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 85 10:53:36 EDT
From: Richard G. Turner, PERI-ET, USARI  <rturner@usadhq2>
Subject: Ref. Computers in SF

The recent query about stories with computers reminded me of one I
really enjoyed several years ago. I don't remember title or author,
but it seems that it was on the line of short-story, novelette,
length.

The story was a series of vignettes taking part at various points in
man's history, starting with the computer era and ending (or
re-beginning) after the universe had run down from entropy. All that
was left at that time was a computer which had evolved to the point
that it existed as pure energy.

Anyone else remember this one?

rick

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 85 1020-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #141
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:

           Books - Brust & Kim Stanley Robinson & Vinge &
                   Story Search & An Answer & 
                   Pittsburgh SF Story Request &
                   Juveniles (2 msgs),
           Films - Wizards (2 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Bode (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 85 13:09 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: To Reign in Hell

        (**** itty bitty teeny weenie spoiler warning ****)
WOW!

I just read To Reign in Hell (by S. Brust) and it is a rreally
grreat book. To be quite honest, I didn't think it was as good as
Brin's stuff (sorry SZKB), but it is well worth the paper it is
printed on and much more! I really like the fact that it is only a
novel - I like series, but I like novels too, and there are too
damned few of those around! The characters are great, and the book
left me wishing I was a little more familiar with the biblical
account of this stuff. In addition, I really like Brust's writing.
It never gets in the way, and there is some great humor. I
particularly liked the first sentence of the book. I must have read
it over four or five times before I turned the page. I liked it
enough to go out and buy Jehereg (spelling?), which is waiting on my
"to read" shelf.

I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea why
Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English?

>>Dave

PS: Here is another question unrelated to the general topic. Being
unsure where to ask, I will ask the kind-hearted SFLovers. What in
blue blazes does :-) mean??

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 05:20:16 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Kim S. Robinson

Funny you should ask about Kim Stanley Robinson when the machine
you're posting from is at UC Davis, where Robinson is a writing
instructor (or at least he was as of last summer or so)...  I won't
speculate on your motives...

Robinson has two books out: THE WILD SHORE (Ace, March 1984, 371pp)
and ICEHENGE (Ace, October 1984, 262pp).  He apparently has a novel
coming out some time this year from Tor titled THE MEMORY OF
WHITENESS (source: Terry Carr in UNIVERSE 13).  SHORE is a story
about life in a post-Holocaust America written in a style
reminiscent of realist mainstream novels.  It is very strong on
characterization and shows a fine attention to prose which is often
lacking in generic sf, but the plot, which concerns a young man
coming of age on the coast of a dramatically altered Southern
California, is very episodic and languorously paced.  I liked the
book anyway -- I'm still not convinced of the value of the sort of
novel which SHORE mimics, but SHORE is modest enough about its goals
that I didn't feel intimidated by it...  ICEHENGE takes place on the
new frontier of the solar system, where Mars is being terraformed
and colonies are being established on the moons of the outer
planets.  Unlike SHORE, this novel is real sf, and it has some
interesting ideas about life in the next six centuries which are
integral to its plot.  The story consists of three segments, each
presenting a different point of view on an episode of history which
starts with a revolution on Mars and leads up to the discovery of a
peculiar artifact at the north pole of Pluto.  ICEHENGE reminds me
strongly of Gregory Benford's writing, and if you like Benford (as I
do) you will really enjoy ICEHENGE.

I once went to a reading given by Robinson at UCSD, sponsored by the
Lit Department.  It proved to be a peculiar experience.  Robinson
got his degree from this department and he was introduced by his
former advisor, whose description of SHORE made it sound like a
major advance in the history of Marxism; the rationale for this
analysis went over my head...  The reading went well -- Robinson
picked one of the more fun and amusing anecdotes from SHORE -- and
when he was finished I was all prepared to ask him questions about
SHORE and about his dissertation on the novels of Philip K Dick.  It
was then that I discovered that I was perhaps the only actual sf
reader in the room: everyone else seemed to be a Lit student or
faculty member, except for David Brin, who had spent most of the
reading sitting in the back of the room doodling and peering through
photocopies of physics papers.  Nobody wanted to know more about the
structure of SHORE'S universe or Robinson's opinions about Dick;
they wanted to know why he was writing sf, of all things, and how
much money there was in it.  Robinson had facetious anecdotes about
growing up in the LA suburbs and suddenly acquiring an interest in
science when as an undergraduate he was forced to take a physics-
for-English-majors class.  I'm afraid I grew progressively less
impressed.  I stupidly managed to divulge my naivete by asking if he
would write any more about the SHORE universe ('If you want to see
more about it, write it yourself and send it to me.  Next
question?')...  The only remotely amusing exchange occurred when I
asked what he had against Orange County (Disneyland takes a nuclear
strike in SHORE): Brin: 'Ever driven down Katella?'  Robinson: 'The
place DESERVES to be nuked...'

After I thought about the incident, though, I realized that Robinson
wasn't so obnoxious after all: EVERY author I've ever met in person
has been thoroughly artificial in just that way.  It must be an
occupational disease...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: jp@lanl.ARPA
Subject: Looking for "True Names" by Vernor Vinge
Date: 29 Apr 85 14:36:04 GMT

Several years ago I read a review that impressed me enough that I
wrote down the reference.  I have never been able to find the book
and I don't even remember anything about the review other than I
thought it was an interesting story.  The referenced book was Binary
Star #5 published by Dell Books.  It contains 2 stories, one of
which is "True Names" by Vernor Vinge.  Any pointers to this book or
the story will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim Potter  jp@lanl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 85 08:45 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Story Search

I was trying to find the novel that contains the Agnostic's Prayer.
I thought this was in a Zelazny novel, like Creatures of Light and
Darkness , but I couldn't seem to find it.  Could you folks help me
out?

Brett Slocum (ARPA :  Slocum @ HI-MULTICS) (uucp :
...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker)
Subject: Re: Story Search
Date: 29 Apr 85 17:20:53 GMT

If anyone cares, or might possibly benifit from this posting:

The "agnostic's prayer" is on page forty-something in "Creatures of
Light and Darkness" by Roger Z.  43, I think...(I looked it up for a
friend recently -- No, I don't carry page numbers around in my
head!)

Enjoy,

Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin
...{seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury
... mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA

------------------------------

From: sdencore!mark@topaz.arpa (Mark DiVecchio)
Subject: Pittsburgh Sci Fi Story
Date: 28 Apr 85 01:56:10 GMT

        About 15 years ago, I remember reading a SciFi story which
took place in the East Liberty neighborhood of Pittsburgh
specifically around the East Liberty Police Station. I don't
remember any of the plot.

        I was living in the area at the time as a student at CMU.

        It was a short story not a novel.

        Does anyone remember the author or title of the work?

Mark C. DiVecchio
K3FWT
[ihnp4|akgua|decvax|dcdwest|ucbvax]sdcsvax!sdencore!mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 09:58 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Juvenile story search

The books you describe about a planet that can only be seen with
certain lenses is "Mr.  Bass's Planetoid", and other books.  I don't
remember the author.  I was just thinking about these books while
reading your message.  strange coincidence.  What I remember about
these books is Mr.  Bass who was a charming old man that some kids
meet.  He shows them in his telescope this strange little planetoid
orbiting real close to Earth.  Later on they travel there in a space
ship.  It turns out that Mr.  Bass is a native, I think.  I don't
remember much about the place, but I did enjoy them while in 5th
Grade.  I seem to recall reading them shortly after I started
reading SF.  Probably after reading A Wrinkle in Time by M.
L'engle, my favorite juvenile book.

Brett Slocum (arpa:  Slocum@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP:
...!ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Re: obscure juveniles
Date: 29 Apr 85 05:44:52 GMT

>From: Joel B. Levin <levin@BBNCCT.ARPA>
>I have been trying to remember about a certain series of 'novels'
>(i.e.  4th grade equivalent) about a peculiar inhabited planet
>which orbits Earth or orbits the sun near Earth.  A very special
>type of lens was required to see this planet, which was why real
>astronomers didn't know about it; but somehow a kid found such a
>lens or ran into a visitor from this planet (whom I remember as a
>nice little man) and got involved in various problems on this
>planet.
>       Thanks / JBL

I'm glad to know somebody else read those, I used to love them (and
still like them) : You are talking about the Mushroom Planet books.
I will go out on a limb and say that I think they are by Cameron.
The little man you remember is Tycho Bass, a Mycetian (sp?) - that
is to say, one of the Mushroom people who now live beside humanity
but originally came from somewhere else.  That somewhere else is the
Mushroom Planet which Bass's new lens (with some great sounding name
) has let him see (the Mushroom people have forgotten their origin).
He recruits the young boys (by newspaper add) to build a space ship
shell which he can fill.  Together they will visit the Mushroom
Planet and save the Mycetians living there (it turns out that they
all have a dietary deficiency of sulfur).

There were several Mushroom Planet books, all involving the boys,
but some involving Tycho's cousin (Theo?) after Tycho's mysterious
disappearance.  The idea of the Mushroom People on Earth was further
explored (some of them were not even aware that they were not human.
Tycho later comes back (with his absence explained) and the last
book (that I know of) was a truly scary one as the boys help the
Mushroom people combat an entity (known only as Narrow Brain) that
has haunted the Mycetians since the time of King Arthur.

I'm afraid the titles have mostly escaped me but the first one was
pretty nearly :

        _The Wonderful Journey to the Mushroom Planet_

and the last one was (exactly) :

        _Time and Mr. Bass_

(I suggest you look this one up in the card catalog to get the
Author's name correct and search for the rest).

I'm posting followup on this rather than replying since I hope a
good few people with kids will read this : You could do a lot worse
than introduce your kids to the Mushroom Planet books.

                        Ted Nolan       ..usceast!ted

BTW The spaceship went 'pheep,pheep' -- all good spaceships should.
Ted Nolan              ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle  ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206     allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

[Moderator's Note: Thanks to all the people who also responded with
similar information:

Morris M. Keesan (keesan@BBNCCI)
Dean Sutherland (Sutherland@TL-20A)
Bard Bloom (BARD@MIT-XX)
]

------------------------------

Subject: Re: WIZARDS
Date: 28 Apr 85 04:12:46 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> << come on--what girl wants to see a movie in which there is only
> one female character>>

There were two, at least.  Besides the daughter (Elena?) of the
president, there was the consort of the dark leader, the one who
stopped Avatar's "elf warrior" friend from killing Elena out of pure
anger.  Not often seen in the film, but still rather important.  She
was one of the very few who wanted to stop the slaughter before it
started (which cannot have endeared her to her consort).

There was also, briefly and in flashback, the mother of Avatar and
his brother (what has his name?  Black Wolf?  Oh well).

> . . . I mean, who else could convince an entire nation to not only
> allow and condone concentration/ extermination camps, but fight
> the rest of the world for the right to use them?

I am not a historian, but I believe the secret of the concentration
camps was well guarded, even within Germany.  Local populations
either didn't know about them, or took them for normal
prisoner-of-war camps, and knew little or nothing of what was
happening inside them (the SS didn't advertise).  The camp that
Patton's army liberated was near a village that knew nothing of it.
The day after the army found that camp, they brought the populace to
see it.  The next morning the mayor and his wife hanged themselves.

All of which I bring up for historic detail only, since
fundamentally, I agree with you: Hitler represents the most hideous
things that can be done with propoganda, and a mob at your beck and
call.

> I like the thought that the strength of your convictions can make
> you strong and that lack in them makes you weak and ineffectual.
> It also frightens me to watch the power of propaganda like
> Hitler's, but I think its important to remind ourselves of this
> fact, lest we allow something like that to happen again.  I think
> Wizards did a good job of showing both of these ideas.

I really hadn't looked at it this way, but I suppose it did.

I feel a little funny, defending Bakshi after the horror he wrought
on Lord of the Rings.  That has earned him my lasting enmity.
Nevertheless, I quite liked Wizards, and I really think it's getting
more harsh press than it deserves.  The animation was no worse, and
in fact was rather better, than a lot of animation seen on TV these
days.  I thought the characters rather crude, but when it came to
it, they came into their own.  I liked it enough to go back and see
it again (and might even do so a third time if it were playing
around here).
                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Subject: Re: WIZARDS
Date: 28 Apr 85 04:18:09 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> One thing that bothered me about WIZARDS was that the first few
> minutes of the film were not animated.  Instead, the camera pans
> over some uncolored, unfinished sketches.  It seemed that Bakshi
> had gotten tired of drawing or had a low animation budget.
> Perhaps it was meant to indicate the dim past as a background to
> the main story, but I still did not like it.
>
>   C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL  or
>   {ucbvax!unmvax,ihnp4}!lanl!dspo!tallman

Well, it's in good company.  Leonardo da Vinci frequently left his
pencilled sketches unpainted (even though they started life as the
basis of watercolours).  Not to say that Bakshi in any way
approaches Leonardo, but it does make the practise at least 500
years old.  Personally I find it rather enjoyable as a technique, if
used judiciously.
                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 85 09:29 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: pronunciation of Bode

In a digital control systems class I took a couple years ago, I used
a graph that was called a Bode Diagram or Bode Plot.  This was
pronounced Boe'-dee, which rhymes with Motie and grody and Cody.
This is perhaps the correct pronunciation of Vaughn Bode's name.

Brett Slocum

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: pronunciation of Bode
Date: 30 Apr 85 03:55:43 GMT

Would you believe Bod -uh to rhyme with abode -uh?

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 85 1100-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #142
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:

             Books - Coulson & Wolfe & Story Request &
                     Upcoming Novels,
             Comics - Mage,
             Films - Mad Max & Clan of the Cave Bear &
             Goonies & Star Wars & Brazil,
             Television - Starlost

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack)
Date: 30 Apr 1985 1415-EDT (Tuesday)
Subject: What happened to ...

I read a couple books a few years ago that caught my interest.  They
were about a "multi-national" (it was actually a company that was a
nation) run by a family.  The first book was _Tomorrow's_Heritage_
and the second _Outward_Bound_.  I liked them and awaited the third
which was "forthcoming."  That was about two years ago?  What
happened?  The author was Juanita Coulson.  Did she die?  Suffer
writer's block?  ???

Any help appreciated.  Send replies to me, war@mit-dutch.arpa.

                                        -- Chris Warack

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN
Date: 4 May 85 05:19:48 GMT

>From: liang@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang)
>What is this?  A new NEW sun book?  Pray tell more.

I still don't know much about this book.  The only official word I
have on it is very old; it comes from the January 1984 LOCUS article
on Wolfe in which he discusses why he quit his job to become a
full-time writer:

        '... I've got the fifth book of the New Sun in first draft,
        but I haven't done anything on it for months.  I plan to
        pull it out eventually and do the final draft.
        Comparatively little of the book takes place in the Urth of
        the Commonwealth.  A lot of it takes place in space...  The
        temptation is... to get away from [writing about Urth],
        because I know the place pretty well and it's time to go and
        explore a new place.'

It's been considerably more than a year since this interview, so I
suspect he has had a chance to work on the book some more.  Does
anyone else have any current information?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 14:51:53 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@bbncca.ARPA>
Subject: Yet Another "What's the Title?"

    While we're on the subject of forgotten children's literature,
here's another one I vaguely remember.  It was two books in a single
volume, sort of "Alice In Wonderland"ish, but with a boy as the main
character.  I'm fairly sure it was an English book, and I just
remember bits and pieces.  I know that there was a character called
"Thingumbob", and that he collected sealing wax by walking up and
down the beach teasing the seals and making them cry, for of course
everyone knows that seals cry sealing wax.  As I recall, the
different kinds of seals (i.e., different ages and genders) cried
different colours of wax.  There was another character called "The
Dumbwaiter", who couldn't talk, and who ran up and down the beach
carrying trays of food for people.  He was called the Dumbwaiter not
because of the food, nor because of being unable to talk, but
because he ran up and down.  I think both of these characters are
from the first half of the book (i.e. the first dream), and I think
the second half involved Father Time and some pirates.  The only
thing I remember other than that is a riddle asked by the pirates,
which the boy was tempted to answer "shoes".  He saved himself at
the last moment by saying "slippers" instead.

    Any leads at all on this will be greatly appreciated.

Morris M. Keesan
{decvax,linus,ihnp4,wanginst,wjh12,ima}!bbncca!keesan
keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 85 02:23:28 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Upcoming novels: Tim Powers, William Gibson

The May issue of LOCUS has an interview with Tim Powers that
confirms and disproves many of the assertions made in the last few
postings on the author...  Powers explains what the difference is
between THE SKIES DISCROWNED and EPITAPH IN RUST, when DINNER AT
DEVIANT'S PALACE was actually written, what he really does for a
living, and what his next novel will be about.  (No, I won't type it
all in -- go look it up!)

Oh all right: Powers' next novel has the working title 'ON STRANGER
TIDES' and is a historical fantasy set in the Caribbean circa 1718,
and it involves Blackbeard, voodoo and the Fountain of Youth...

Speaking of new novels, I recently read 'Fragments of a Hologram
Rose' by William Gibson in INTERZONE 9, and in the accompanying
biographical blurb Gibson says that he is '[c]urrently working on
COUNT ZERO, a not-quite-sequel to NEUROMANCER, and THE LOG OF THE
MUSTANG SALLY, unrelated sf[.]' ('Rose' was Gibson's first published
story, which INTERZONE had the courtesy to reprint, and it's very
good.)  More information on Gibson appears in the May LOCUS, where
it is revealed that he won the Philip K Dick Memorial Award for
NEUROMANCER; Kim Stanley Robinson was runner-up, for his novel THE
WILD SHORE.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: anwar!chuck@topaz.arpa (chuck jann)
Subject: MAGE
Date: 30 Apr 85 05:59:52 GMT

>Subject: James P. Hogan's works
>Sender: bp,@topaz.ARPA
>By the way, be sure to read _The_Genesis_Machine_ by Mr. Hogan.  It
>is great.  The best solution to detente I have ever read, but then
>I like the idea of absolute power with no corruption.  I guess
>that's why I still like Superman, even though the comics are too
>silly.  I'll just have to make mine Marvel.  Although there is a
>great comic called _Mage,_the_Hero_Discovered_ being published.
>Does anybody else like it or have you even seen it?  Good stuff.
>                                        -- Jon Pugh --

                         MAGE IS FANTASTIC !
I definitely recommend it to everyone. It's one of the most
interesting comics around. You really should start at the begining
(issue 7 will be out in May) but, LUCKY YOU! Comico has just
released THE MAGE BOOK (i think thats the title) a graphic novel
consisting of the first 4 issues and you can still find # 5 & 6 at
many comics shops that carry "direct sales only" titles. Check it
out.

cj

UUCP address:   {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!chuck

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1985 1145 GMT
From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. <WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA>
Subject: Film Information

Mad Max in the Thunderdome (supposedly the actual title of the US 
release) Cast: Mel Gibson, Tina Turner, Bruce Spence (the autogyro
pilot?)  Written, produced and directed by George Miller Scheduled for
July release
                               - Bill Weisman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1985 1145 GMT
From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. <WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA>
Subject: Film Information

Clan of the Cave Bear

Cast: Daryl Hannah, James Remar, Pamela Reed, Tommy G. Waites, John 
Doolittle Producers: Jon Peters, Mark Damon, John Hyde, and Peter
Guber Director: Michael Chapman Screenplay: John Sayles (of
"Alligator" and "Return of the Secaucus 7" fame)

Scheduled for September release

                               - Bill Weisman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1985 1145 GMT
From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. <WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA>
Subject: Film Information

Goonies

Cast: Ke-Huy Qwan, Corey Feldman, John Matuszak, Martha Plimpton,
      Steve Antin, Sean Astin, Josh Brolin, Kerri Green, Jeff Cohen 
Producers: Spielberg et. al.  Director: Richard Donner Written by
Chris Colombus Scheduled for June release

                               - Bill Weisman

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Next Star Wars Movie
Date: 29 Apr 85 07:29:10 GMT

mike@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Stalnaker) writes:
>       Has anybody heard anything about this??? Lucas is being
>very quiet again.  Seems like every time that guy clams up, there's
>another project in the works.  I've heard that he's planning all 3
>of the first episodes (the prequel) as one movie... Any ideas?

The last I heard, Lucas was working with the people at Disney
putting together a project that would convert Tomorrowland into a
Star Wars like theme area. I don't know if this has been finalized,
but since it looks to me like the LAST thing Walt would have
considered, the existing management structure will probably go for
it full speed ahead. Not putting Lucas down, but R2D2 is NOT Mickey
Mouse, no matter how short it is....

:From the closet of anxieties of:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!rick@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: BRAZIL (review)
Date: 28 Apr 85 23:06:44 GMT

I saw this movie at a preview in Hollywood. I found it to be to
uneven and confusing to give it a good review. You get dangled along
for a while and then find out you were watching someone's dream! I
think a lot of the problems with this movie are that it has an
identity crisis - it doesn't know if it is a comedy or drama. The
humor ranges from slapstick to sophisticated satire. I suspect the
average viewer, Joe Q. Public will not like this one. And the ending
will leave you stunned in your seat.

                       Rick Gillespie
                       rick@ucla-cs
                       ...!{cepu|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!rick

------------------------------

From: spock!captain@topaz.arpa (John Griffin '87 cc)
Subject: Re: 1 old TV Show..._S_t_a_r_l_o_g remembers.
Date: 24 Apr 85 18:37:20 GMT

Regarding that "TV show with Keir Dullea on an Ark...", the Starlog
TV episode guides book vol. 1 says the following about _T_h_e
_S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t:

"Premise: In the year 2790 A.D., a giant Earthship, _A_r_k, drifts
through deep space, out of control, its crew having been killed
five-hundred years earlier.  When the accident that killed the crew
occured, the airlocks connecting the ship's domes that housed the
last survivors of the dead planet Earth, were sealed.  Cut off from
the "outside world", many communities simply forgot that they were
on a spacecraft.  They accepted that their world was fifty miles in
diameter and the sky was metal.  Content with their lot, no one knew
that their world was in grave danger.  Without a crew at the helm,
the _A_r_k was on a collision course with a sun.

Major Characters:
      Devon: Orphaned when his parents' farm burned, he is somewhat
of a dreamer.  He has also had to teach himself by asking questions.
Unfortunately, he asks the wrong questions which causes his
banishment from Cypress Corners.  He is naive about some things, but
learns quickly when he discovers the truth.
     Rachel: She is in love with Devon and, because of this love,
follows him into the depths of the _A_r_k.  Raised to be nothing
more than the servant of the man she is promised to at birth, she
soon learns to enjoy the control over her own destiny her departure
from Cypress Corners gives her.
     Garth: Rachel was promised to Garth for marriage.  Garth, a
blacksmith by trade, does not love Rachel and wishes the elders
would give Devon permission to marry Rachel.  When Devon and Rachel
escape, Garth is forced by a code of honor to bring Rachel back and
kill Devon.

    About the show: _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t premiered on television
loosely based on a concept created by Harlan Ellison.  Meticulously
and lovingly devised by Ellison and brought to perfection by
scientific advisor Ben Bova, the series promised to be a monumental
step for SF television.  Ellison had contracted great SF writers
such as A.E. Van Vogt, Frank Herbert, Joanna Russ, Thomas M.  Disch,
Alexei Panshin, Phillip K. Dick, and Ursula K. LeGuin to write
storylines that would be scripted by the best Canadian writers
available.  Douglas Trumbull would be executive Producer and create
the special effects via the Magicam system.
    It looked good.  It sounded good.  It fell apart.  _T_h_e
_S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t regressed into a low-budget, syndicated show with
all the SFX being accomplished ineffectively through croma-key, the
method used in TV newscasts to put pictures behind the commentators.
Trumbull left before production began, as did Ellison, who used his
pen name as series creator and writer of episode one.  Only Ursula
K. LeGuin's storyline made it into production.  The end product was
a dismal reflection of the glories promised.  After only 14
episodes, _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t vanished into the void.

Cast: Devon.............Keir Dullea
      Rachel..............Gay Rowen
      Garth..............Robin Ward
      Computer Host...William Osler

Principle Credits: Exec. Producers...Douglas Trumbull
                                        Jerry Zeitman

                   Producer..........William Davidson
                   Creator............Cordwainer Bird
                   Production Designer....Jack McAdam
                   Technical Advisor.........Ben Bova
                   Music............Score Productions
Episodes (Paraphrased):
"Voyage of Discovery": Pilot--the group escapes their dome and
                       discovers the impending danger to the ship.
                       They begin their quest for someone who still
                       knows how to pilot the ship.
"Lazarus from the Mist": The group finds technical crews in suspended
                         animation, but are captured by mutated
                         former security forces.
"The Goddess Calabra": The group finds a Rome-like society, and
                       Rachel is mistaked for the goddess of this
                       all-male militaristic society.
"The Pisces": The crew of the scoutship Pisces returns to the Ark
              409 years after they left, but they cannot board the
              Ark, because the atmosphere ages them.
"Children of Methuselah": A group of intelligent children live in
                          the flight training center, and Devon tries
                          to get them to repair the ship.
"And Only Man is Vile": The group become involved in bizarre
                        scientific experiments in a dome.
"The Alien Oro": An alien has taken up residence in one of the domes
                 since his ship crashed, and he tries to trick the
                 group into helping him repair it.
"Mr. Smith of Manchester": The group enter an  heavily industrialized
                           dome, whose ruler refuses to stop the
                           pollutive machinery.
"Circuit of death": Aware of the impending doom, electronics engineer
                    Sakharov tries to activate the self-destruct of
                    the Ark.
"The Ancient Woods": The group seeks help for Devon's radiation
                     sickness from the Astro Medics from a nearby
                     Shuttle clinic.
"People of the Dark": The group enters a dome where people live
                      without any light or laws whatsoever.
"Laboratory of Fear": The group wanders into the lair of an autonomous
                      computer, who has absolute power over reality
                      there.  They hope he can re-create the captain.
"The Return of Oro": Oro returns, planning to bring the Ark's people
                     to safety on his planet.  Devon discovers,
                     however, that they could not survive there, and
                     must convince Oro of that.
"God that died": The group discovers a paradise in a dome, but a
                 vaperous alien rules it.

Notes of Interest: Ursula K. LeGuin wrote "The Goddess Calabra"
                   Walter "Chekov" Koenig played Oro in both episodes.



_T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t sounds very intersting,
but doesn't seem to be frequently syndicated in the Tri-state area.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 May 85 1111-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #143
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 May 85 11:08:07 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator

        Beginning with this issue I will be reprinted the chapters
of The Enchanted Duplicator.  Full Credits may be found at the
beginning of the first chapter.
        I would like to thank Peter Trei (as well as the authors)
for making this possible.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 01:41:17-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: THe Enchanted Duplicator

                      THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR
                                 by
                       Walt Willis & Bob Shaw

                 Preface to the computer-readable edition.

     This computer-readable edition of THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR is
copied from the 8th printed edition.  Sadly, ASCII terminals cannot
show Dan Steffan's excellent illustrations.  A very few typos have
been corrected; I have doubtless introduced more of my own.  The
only typographic peculiarity present is that words bracketed by
asterisks like *this* should be regarded as underlined.

                                              Peter Trei
                                              oc.trei@cu20b.arpa
                                              1 April 1985

                    Preface to the Eighth edition

     This is the eighth edition of The Enchanted Duplicator.  Walt
Willis and George Charters published the first edition, with
illustrations by Bob Shaw, in 1954.  Ted Johnstone and George Fields
produced a version with Eddie Jones art in 1962.  Arnie Katz and
rich brown published the third edition, illustrated by C.  Rose
Chamberlain, in 1971.  In 1972, The Enchanted Duplicator was
serialized (as installments of "The Clubhouse," normally a
fanzine-review column) in AMAZING SCIENCE FICTION.  In 1979, the
British worldcon, SeaCon '79, also produced an edition.  In 1980,
this fannish allegory was published in the 600-page WARHOON 28 as
part of a Collected Works of Willis.  And in 1981, Gary Farber did a
300-copy replica of the third edition.  Obviously this is a durable
work.

     Some of the allusions in The Enchanted Duplicator will be
clearer if one knows a bit of fanhistory.  For example, it is useful
to know that Mari Wolff, during her stint as a fanzine reviewer in
the prozine IMAGINATION, doled out egoboo with heedless abandon, or
that many fans used Swift Printers in the early 1950s.  Still, the
spirit of the work is just as strong today as when it was first
published, and a failure to understand a few random bits of
esoterica won't lessen your enjoyment.
                                                        --Jophan

Credits for the Eighth Edition:
     The 1983 edition of THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR by Walt Willis and
Bob Shaw, and illustrated by Dan Steffan is jointly produced by
Editions Dante and Constellation, the 1983 World Science Fiction
Convention.

     *Credits*: Design and Layout: Dan Steffan; Typing: Lynn
Steffan; Map: C. Ross Chamberlain; Vile Instigator: Gary Farber;
Boss Ladies: Avedon Carol and Peggy Rae Pavlat; Inspiration: The
Spirit of Fandom.

   This 1983 edition is dedicated to the memory of BOB PAVLAT, A
Trufan.

                                Chapter One
             In which the Spirit of Fandom appears to Jophan.

     Once upon a time in the village of Prosaic in the Country of
Mundane there lived a youth called Jophan.  Now this youth was
unhappy, because in all the length and breadth of Mundane there was
no other person with whom he could talk as he would like, or who
shared the strange longings that from time to time perplexed his
mind and which none of the pleasures offered by Mundane could wholly
satisfy.  Each day as Jophan grew nearer to manhood he felt more
strongly that life should have more to offer than had been dreamed
of in Mundane, and he took to reading strange books that told of
faraway places and other times.  But the People of Prosaic mocked
him, saying that the things described in his books could never come
to pass, and that it was as foolish to think of them as to aspire to
climb the great mountains that surrounded the Country of Mundane.

     The mighty peaks that hemmed in Mundane were ever present in
Jophan's thoughts, for since childhood he had loved to look at them
and wonder what lay on their other side.  At times in the late
Summer he had even seemed to see a curious luminescence in the sky
beyond them and once he had even fancied that he heard the sound of
happy voices singing, borne over the vast distances on the still
Summer breeze.  But when he mentioned these things to the People of
Prosaic they laughed at him and said his fanciful imagination was
playing him tricks.  Even if anyone could climb these impassable
mountains, they told him, there could be nothing on the other side
but howling wastes where no man could live except perhaps madmen and
savages.

     Jophan believed them, for they seemed older and wiser than he,
and tried to put the strange thoughts out of his mind.  But he still
read the strange books that told of faraway places and other times,
and in the long evenings of Summer he would go away by himself into
the fields and read until nightfall.

     Now one day while he was reading in a cornfield, the drowsy
fragrance of the corn lulled him to sleep.  In his sleep he dreamed
that a fairy came to him, a girl of wondrous beauty and shining with
a light brighter than the noonday sun, so that Jophan shrank away
and hid his eyes.  The fairy came nearer and spoke to him.

     "Have no fear," she said.  "I am your friend."

     And now Jophan looked and saw that indeed the fairy gazed on
him with kindness and love, and he took courage.

     "Who and what are you?"  he asked.

     "I am the Spirit of Fandom,"  said the fairy serenely.

     "What is Fandom?"  asked Jophan wonderingly.

     The fairy looked down on him with compassion.  "Have you not
been searching for it all your life?"  she asked.  "Watch!"  So
saying, she touched his forehead with her wand, which was called
Contact, and thereupon Jophan saw a vision that filled him with Joy.

     "This is indeed what I have been searching for without knowing
it," he cried.  "Oh, Fairy, tell me how I can reach your realm, for
I wish to become a Fan more than anything else in the world."

     "The Way is hard," said the Fairy, "for it lies over the
Mountains of Inertia which surround Mundane."

     "But those mountains are unclimable,"  protested Jophan.

     "To a True Fan anything is possible," replied the Fairy.  "But
wait.  I have shown you only the superficial aspects of Fandom.  Now
I will show you something of its inner essence."  With those words
she touched his forehead with her other wand, which as named Fanac,
and Jophan saw a second vision so glorious that he was quite
overcome by the wonder of it.

     As soon as he could speak he cried aloud, "Oh Spirit of Fandom,
tell me how I may become a True Fan and publish the Perfect Fanzine,
for that is what I desire more than anything in the world."

     "I see that I have chosen wisely," said the Fairy approvingly,
"but the way to your heart's desire is long and hard.  To reach it
you must obtain the Enchanted Duplicator, sometimes known as the
Magic Mimeograph.  It lies in the very heart of Fandom, on the top
of the High Tower of Trufandom, and the path to it is long and beset
with many dangers."

     "I do not care for danger," said Jophan stoutly, "so long as I
can publish the Perfect Fanzine, for that is what I want more than
anything else in the world."

     "Very well," said the Fairy.  "Then take this Shield, which is
called Umor.  If you polish it every day and keep it shining it will
protect you from many dangers."

     "But how will I know the way?" cried Jophan hastily, for the
Fairy was already beginning to disappear.

     "If you are a True Fan you will know the way...."  said the
Fairy faintly, for she had now almost completely faded into
invisibility.  For a moment a faint glow remained in the air from
which seemed to come the whispered words "Good Luck," and then she
was gone.

     Jophan woke from his dream and realized that night was almost
upon him, for the sun was setting behind the Mountains of Inertia
and their shadows were advancing swiftly on him across the level
plains of Mundane.  Behind the mountains there lingered a sea of
glorious light, and a sadness overtook Jophan to think that his
vision had been but a dream.  But as he got to his feet he noticed
that on the ground beside him there lay a shield of curious
workmanship.  Jophan picked it up incredulously and than turned his
eyes once again to the mountains, his face transfigured with wonder
and resolve.

                         [ To be continued. ]

------------------------------

Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 01:41:49-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 2

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan,
inspired by the Spirit of Fandom, has decided to seek Trufandom.]

                            Chapter Two
               In which Jophan starts on his Journey.

     That evening Jophan told his parents of his intention to scale
the Mountains of Inertia and enter the Realm of Fandom.  His mother
pleaded with him in vain, and in a fit of rage his father burned all
the books that told of faraway places and other times, but nothing
could shake Jophan from his purpose.  As dawn broke he set out for
the mountains, carrying all his possessions on his back and turning
a deaf ear to the protests of his friends, who ran behind him
begging him to return.

     They soon fell far behind, and by noon Jophan arrived at the
borders of Mundane.  He found himself at the great arterial road
that ran to the capital city.  He was confused by the traffic that
roared along the road, and stood anxiously looking for an
opportunity to cross.  As he waited he noticed other travellers
boarding luxurious coaches bound for fabulous destinations such as
Wealth, Success, Respectability and other places, but none of them
seemed to be going in the direction of Fandom.  During a momentary
lull in the traffic Jophan marched steadfastly across the road.
Then he took the narrow path that led through the Forest of
Stupidity, which forest grows all around the Country of Mundane and
shelters it from the searching winds that blow out of Fandom.

     The path was overgrown, and in several places Jophan had to cut
his was through brush and thickets, but by mid-afternoon he had made
his way to a beautiful clearing where he thought he would rest
before continuing his journey.  To his surprise he noticed that the
clearing was laid out as an aerodrome, and that a beautiful silver
flying-machine was even now landing.  As he watched, the pilot and a
passenger got out.  The passenger seemed to fall to the ground and
lie there motionless but the pilot came trotting over to Jophan.  He
was a fat, prosperous-looking man, and he eyed Jophan with
calculating cordiality.

     Good afternoon, young man," he said genially.  "My name is
Swift.  May I ask where you are bound for?"

     "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way over the
Mountains of Inertia to enter Fandom and produce the Perfect
Fanzine, for that is what I want to do more than anything else in
the world."

     "And so you shall!"  said Swift, eyeing Jophan's bundle.  "But,
my dear young man, surely you are not thinking of *climbing* those
mountains?  Why, my beautiful machine will fly you over to Fandom in
no time.  And as for the Perfect Fanzine, my aeroplanograph will
produce that for you too.  No trouble at all.  All you have to do is
give me that bundle of yours."

     "The Fairy said that I must get the Enchanted Duplicator," said
Jophan doubtfully.

     "That old thing?"  jeered Swift.  "Why, no one bothers with
old- fashioned stuff like that these days.  I've got some proofs for
you."

     As he hurried past the aeroplanograph to his office, Jophan
observed that the passenger was crawling painfully over the grass,
calling feebly to Jophan.  Jophan hurried over to him and could
scarcely restrain his tears as he saw the stranger's pitiful
condition.  The wretch was pale and emaciated, his clothes in rags,
and his hair prematurely white.  Jophan bent down to hear what he
was saying.  "Don't trust him," whispered the passenger through his
parched lips, "neither him nor his brothers, Offset and Litho.  They
will fly you over the Mountains of Inertia, as they claim, but you
won't be able to land anywhere.  You will fly around in circles for
months looking down on Fandom until all your money is gone and you
die of starvation like me.  Be warned before it is too late.  There
is no easy way..."

     His voice trailed off into inaudibility, and Jophan realized
that he was dead.  Solemnly he consigned his soul to Heaven and
prayed that the great BNF above would have pity on him.  Then he ran
across the aerodrome and resumed his journey through the forest.

     Soon the trees began to thin out and the ground to rise, and
Jophan knew he had arrived at the foothills of the Mountains of
Inertia.  As he paused to strap his bundle more tightly about him he
was startled to hear what seemed to be a train whistle nearby.  He
went forward curiously and soon found himself facing a large and
imposing notice.  In clear and elegant letters it said: TO THE
TUNNEL.  LETTERPRESS RAILROAD.  MUNDANE TO TRUFANDOM TOWER DIRECT
VIA TUNNEL.  Beyond it Jophan saw a dark tunnel leading into the
mountain, and before it a resplendent locomotive and a single tiny
carriage behind it.

     Had it not been for his encounter with the Passenger, Jophan
would have bought a ticket and boarded the train, but instead he
stayed where he was and watched the locomotive as it started off.
With a deafening blow on its whistle and an impressive clanking of
gears it steamed forward towards the inky blackness of the tunnel,
but it had barely reached the entrance before it shuddered to a
stop.  To his astonishment, Jophan saw the driver, fireman and
passengers get off and run to the back of the train.  With immense
labor they lifted the last section of the track and staggered with
it into the tunnel.  After some minutes they reappeared and boarded
the train again.  The train moved another few yards into the tunnel,
and the process was repeated.  Jophan watched them until they
finally disappeared into the tunnel, marvelling at their obstinacy
and patience.  It may be, he thought, a wonderful railroad, but if
they have to set every one of the lines by hand it will be years
before they even reach Fandom, let alone Trufandom.

     He listened for a while to the groanings and clankings still
coming from the tunnel and then set off on the steep path up the
mountain.
                          [To be continued.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 May 85 1236-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #144
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 3 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:

        Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Bradbury & Pohl (2 msgs),
        Films - Wizards & Star Trek IV & Lucasfilms,
        Music - The Dead and SF,
        Miscellaneous - Cobalt-60 (2 msgs) & Language &
                British Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85  9:34:48 EDT
From: Morris M. Keesan <keesan@BBNCCI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Ref. Computers in SF
To: rturner@usadhq2.arpa

The story asked about in SFL V10 #140 which is "vignettes . . .
starting with the computer era and ending . . . after the universe
had run down," when "All that was left . . . was a computer," is of
course the classic short story by Asimov, "The Last Question".
                                                --Morris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 08:46 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: To: Richard Turner - Computers in SF

We are back to _The Last Question_ by Issac Asimov.  A great short
story.  The universe runs down to just the Cosmic AC which is still
munching on it's last asked question, "How do we reverse entropy?"
It figures it out.  Are we surprised?  It is a classic of the short
story variety.  Almost as good as the short short where they power
up the world's largest computer and ask it, "Is there a God?"  It
responds with, "There is now!" as a lightning bolt fuses the off
switch.  Great stuff.
                                        -- Jon Pugh --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 17:56 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Ref. Computers in SF (story request)
To: "Richard G. Turner, PERI-ET, USARI" <rturner@USADHQ2.ARPA>

"The Last Question", by Isaac Asimov, I think.  The computer at the
end was the Universal(?) AC, and it existed in hyperspace (or else
it had gone before that and a previous model existed in hyperspace),
and at this point mankind has evolved into one, pure energy, mind,
which merges with the AC just befor the last scene.  I think Asimov
thinks this is his best short story (or at least at one time did).

This brings to mind something that occured to me while reading
_Robots_of_Dawn_.  It seems to me that in several of Asimov's
story's, he essentially creates God (or /a/ god, anyway), "The Last
Question" being the most obvious example.  Others include some of
the robot stories, eg "The Evitable Conflict" and _The_Robots_Of_
Dawn_, wherein robots play the "god" role.  The ending of
_Foundations_Edge_ also seems to have that feel to it, but its been
so long since I read it I'm not sure.  What does the net think?

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: "There Will Come Soft Rains"
Date: 30 Apr 85 01:09:35 GMT

> From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
> The Bradbury story "There Will Come Soft Rains" is indeed about an
> automated house that continued to operate after a nuclear
> holocaust.  It IS one of the stories in the "The Martian
> Chronicles".  It is also the only one that I remember the title
> for---the story had a very profound impact on me.

Thanks for all the answers to my original question about the
automated house.  A bit of nostalgia hit, and, well, I just had to
know...

One odd side note, I read it in it's short-story form as a class
assignment in (of all places) Catholic church-school many many many
years ago.  (Funny, I never did see that particular priest after
that)

Gary

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!carlj@topaz.arpa (carlj)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 20 Apr 85 02:31:00 GMT

     I think you are right about Sigfried not being included,
although I missed that when I first read it.  Your point about
spotting the Heechee ship was not valid.  Albert sent out the ship
to watch the light ship which had a known position, direction, and
speed.  When the ship didn't spot the light ship at the indicated
position, it stepped back to watch the light ship from a known
sighting and watched it until the rendezvous with the Heechee ships.

    Carl Johnson
    hp-pcd!carlj

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 30 Apr 85 16:25:37 GMT

Your discussion of these works (Gateway, etc) reminds me that
Gateway: The Play was performed at Minicon this year, and I, for
one, was very impressed.  If anyone is going to be at Keycon
(Winipeg, May 17 & 18), it will be performed there, and I recommend
seeing it whether you are familiar with the books or not.  The
author of the play is a Minneapolis Theatre Major named Phil Therou,
and the acting is surprisingly good.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS
Date: 29 Apr 85 14:30:34 GMT

tallman@dspo.UUCP writes:
>One thing that bothered me about WIZARDS was that the first few
>minutes of the film were not animated.  Instead, the camera pans
>over some uncolored, unfinished sketches.  It seemed that Bakshi
>had gotten tired of drawing or had a low animation budget.  Perhaps
>it was meant to indicate the dim past as a background to the main
>story, but I still did not like it.

Uhh... you're kidding, right?  This is a belated AprilFool posting?

Those "uncolored, unfinished sketches" were rather nice conte' or
pastel drawings, done on a gray textured paper.  They're *supposed*
to look like that, honest!  (I also think they were the best looking
part of the picture -- the rotoscoped WWI flicks really put me off.)

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 85 07:52 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek IV Plot

Reproduced without permission from the Los Angeles Times Calendar
section of Sunday April 28.

(deleted)

Looks interesting!!

>>Dave

------------------------------

From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Next Star Wars Movie
Date: 29 Apr 85 18:14:57 GMT

Here's the latest inside info on Lucasfilm's current activities:

o  Lucasfilm is doing a ride or rides for Disneyland/world.  This is
   the first time Disney has let anybody else do anything at their
   theme parks.

o  There is some sort of collaboration afoot between Lucas and Henson
   Associates (the Muppet folks).  More details exist, but I don't
   have them at the moment.  (There may be info on this in the Star
   Wars Fan Club bulletin).

o  The current project at Lucasfilm is a new Ewok special.  "This
   time," promises Maureen Garrett of the Star Wars Fan Club, "we'll
   have a real plot!"

o  ILM is keeping busy with the special effects of virtually every
   Hollywood project with any money to spend.  I've heard rumors of
   a film of "Bug Jack Barron," but the chances of that seem slim.
   Right now ILM is building Ewoks.

o  Lucasfilm's Computer Division is becoming a separate company.
   Apparently, they were spending too much money (the short "Andre &
   Wally B." cost about $22 million!).  They are about to
   release/have recently eleased two games for Atari computers (the
   old ones, not the ST): "Ballblazer" and "Rescue on Fractalus,"
   both of which are NEAT.  Other games are in the works.

That's all I have.  These rumors are straight from the horse's
mouth, but they're still just rumors.

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 8:51:19 EDT
From: "James B. Hofmann" (RAMD) <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Subject: The Dead and SF

Two recent messages on SF-LOVERS inspired me to write with the news
that the Dead will continue to be associated with Science Fiction.
Seems they have been hired to write the music for the upcoming
Twilight Zone series.  This includes music for separate segments as
well as the theme music.

The Dead have been weaving Science Fiction themes into their 'Space'
sequence in the last few years.  I personally have heard traces of
'Close Encounters' as well as the original Twilight Zone theme.
Also their head guru, Mr.  Jerry Garcia provided the sound effects
for the baby robot in 'Heartbleeps(?)', definitely the high point of
the whole movie.  I would appreciate hearing any other comments on
the relation of the Dead with SF or for that matter any rock groups'
connection with SF.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 1985 15:48 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
Subject: Cobalt-60

Thanx and a hat tip to Mark Purtill and Chuq Von Rospach for
fleshing out the Bode-Bakshi connection. My entire flame was based
on the similarity of the two characters being too much for just
chance. It is comforting to know I'll have co-defendants if Bakshi
"is that stupid".

I dug through some old boxes at home last night, looking for any
remnants of my old comic books. Eureka! Amongst the Zap, Freak
Brothers, Mr.Natural and Slow Death comics were the following
treasures:
        1) Junkwaffel #1,2 and 4
        2) The Man
        3) The Collected Cheech Wizard
All marked "copyright 197X by Vaughn Bode. All rights reserved", and
"For Adults Only" (good reasons for it, too).  Published by The
Print Mint, Berzerkly, California.

Cobalt-60 makes his debut in Junkwaffel #2 (copyright 1972). When
did Bakshi start on "WIZARDS" ? I think I saw it on a first run in
1976.

From chuqui@topaz:
>Mark (being assisted by Larry Todd, I believe) is doing a good job,
>but he isn't his father, and it shows. Vaughn didn't get very far
>on Cobalt-60 while he was alive because he found it just too
>depressing.  Reading Mark's work, based on what his father did do,
>notes, and his own ideas, shows why.

Junkwaffel #1, by the way, "is dedicated to Larry Todd and my son,
Mark", and the watercolor on the back cover is signed "TODD/BODE".
Also of interest in that issue is a robot war machine carrying a
nameplate saying "PEACE" (another NECRON-90 'similarity'). I'll have
to hunt up the EPIC series to compare the old and new Cobalts, but
here is a passage from Junkwaffel #4 (copyright 1972):

        "The woman was crying, a priest was saying comforting
words....  Cobalt wasn't listening. 'She's a seed!' his mind
screamed, 'a fertile woman, maybe the last human capable of carrying
a child!' ... His knees trembled, 'A seed' .....Cobalt's mind reels,
his hands shake like an old man's 'A seed!'. He felt destruction,
facinated, hung between escape and hatred that bordered insane
pleasure. 'I must kill that woman' he screams in silence, 'Do it, do
it, DO IT!' "

The rest of it is VERY depressing. While the first Cobalts were the
normal frame-by-frame strip, the story above was almost all text
bordering a few charcoal and pencil drawings. Easier to write than
to draw that kind of action.

                        Greg Goodknight <good@ACC.ARPA>
                        just Another Computer Company in
                        Santa Barbara

------------------------------

From: faron!wdr@topaz.arpa (William D. Ricker)
Subject: Re: WIZARDS and Vaughn Bode
Date: 1 May 85 17:11:51 GMT

Mark Purtill writes:
>          Anyway, M.  Bode and *A* were to collaborate on a new
>series of Cobalt-60 strips, which I THINK is/was to be/will be
>appear in EPIC magazine.  (If anyone has seen them, perhaps we
>could get a review for the net.) *A* said that he hoped Bakshi sued
>THEM for copywrite infringement, because then they could
>counter-sue, but that he didn't think Bakshi was that stupid.
>Other than that hope, apparently they have no legal recourse.

Cobalt-60 has appeared in EPIC, a couple of times in the last year,
I think.  I recognized Necron-90 alright, and assumed Bakshi was
being ripped off.  Thanks for showing the other side of it.  (I'm
not going to assume anything's proven either way, unless Bakshi does
sue.)

The strips are amusing.  If you liked Wizards, you may well like
Cobalt-60.  It's got a better surprise ending than Wizards.  Though
I still like the film.

William Ricker
wdr@faron.UUCP                                          (UUCP)
decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr                           (UUCP)
{allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 11:07:01-PDT
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: V10 #138--Suzette Haden Elgin

Ms. Elgin is indeed a linguist; one of the first textbooks I had in
the field was co-authored by her.

However, the idea of world-view being affected by language is NOT an
out-growth of Chomsky's linguistics, nor of French (derived from
American) Structuralism.  It was posited during the 20's by one
Benjamin Lee Whorf, one of the finest anthropological linguists of
the century; it was expanded upon by Edward Sapir, one of the two
great pre-structuralist American linguists.  The idea is known as
the Whorf or Whorf-Sapir hypothesis, and forms the basis for Jack
Vance's novel _The Languages of Pao_.
                                        Rich Alderson@Score
"Linguistics was my business..."

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: More on the name of Piers Anthony
Date: 30 Apr 85 19:11:30 GMT

More on the name of Piers Anthony:

The following quote is from THE MALLING OF AMERICA, a rather good
book on the development of the shopping mall, by William Severini
Kowinski, pp 219-20:

"Piers Anthony Weymouth, the sixth Lord Wedgwood, appeared at South
Coast Plaza [Orange County, CA] as part of a United States tour
promoting Wedgwood bone china. There, in the mall court, for the
first time anywhere, he demonstrated the strength of his china by
balancing a one-and-a-half-ton Silver Spirit Rolls-Royce on Wedgwood
demitasse cups, one under each tire."

OK, this has naught to do with SF, but notice the name at the
quote's beginning. It now must be determined whether:

a) "Piers Anthony" is a very common British name combination, and
many people, of all walks of life, have those names, or,

b) "Piers Anthony" is a family name for the noble family that
includes Lord Wedgwood, and the writer we know as "Piers Anthony"
(P. A. D. Jacob) is one of that family (black sheep or
otherwise...), or,

c) The parents of P. A. D. Jacob named him "Piers Anthony" after the
above Lord Wedgwood or some other person bearing those names, for
some reason or another.

Now is the time for a British reader of this digest or newsgroup to
do a little local investigation...

Regards, Will Martin

USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 May 85 1305-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #145
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 3 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:

              Art - Cover Art,
              Books - Bishop & Brust & Ford & Hogan &
                      Palmer & Zelazny,
              Television - Animated Star Trek
              Miscellaneous - Stolen Art Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Art in True Names
Date: 26 Apr 85 14:04:43 GMT

>      First of all, you must recognize that very few sf artists
> have as much control over their work as you seem to think, Mark.
> Art directors often tell artists precisely which scenes they want
> illustrated, from what perspective, and so on.  When such limits
> are placed on an artist, they can prevent some of his or her
> talent from showing through.
> --Dave Axler

This is correct.  Furthermore (I know I'm getting off the subject),
it is often the the marketing people who decide on the artist, as in
"This guy should have a Whalen or Rwena cover," or "keep the same
artist he's had before since his other books are selling so well."
The result can be that a scene is selected that doesn't fit the book
and an artist is selected who can't do that sort of scene well.  If
you think I'm taking this personally, I am.  The cover of the
paperback of To Reign In Hell sucks the big one, despite excellent
covers, by the same artist, of JHEREG and YENDI.

For examples of GOOD cover art, there is: THE BLUE HAWK, by Peter
Dickinson, and the two books by John DeChancie (which are excellent
books, by the way).
                                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 85 03:39:33 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Michael Bishop's collection ONE WINTER IN EDEN

Michael Bishop is a subtle writer with a talent for believable
characters and well-wrought prose, and his latest collection, ONE
WINTER IN EDEN (Arkham House, 1984, 273pp), thoroughly demonstrates
these virtues.  Most of the stories in this collection are admirably
solid writing, and even the few less interesting ones still show
much more care than the average sf or fantasy tale.  The title story
is about a schoolteacher in rural Georgia who has a peculiar
obsession with dragons -- I daresay that no one but Bishop could
make it fly...  Dragons are a symbol for greed and violence in
western culture, but Bishop turns this notion on its head in a very
touching way.  'Seasons of Belief' is a little chiller that asks us
to reflect on the credibility of the bedtime stories parents
sometimes tell their children.  'Cold War Orphans' is a superb story
that takes place at a CIA spy plane base in Turkey during the Cold
War, telling the tale of a man who defects -- not to the Russians
but to something else, somewhere else...  'The Yukio Mishima
Cultural Association of Kudzu Valley, Georgia' is a violently
original piece about a peculiar institution which bears no relation
to the other organization with the same initials.  I can't say very
much about 'Collaborating' without giving it away, except that it
has to be one of the funniest and (again) most original stories I've
ever seen, and if you can guess what it's about from the title
you'll enjoy it even more when you read it.  'Within the Walls of
Tyre' is a remarkably nasty horror story with a remarkably realistic
feel to it.  'Saving Face' brings science fiction to rural Georgia,
when the law gets involved in the question of whether Tom Rakestraw
has the looks of a movie star.  'The Quickening' won the Nebula
award for best novelette of 1981, and it is a disturbing little
fable about human society.  This really has to be one of the best
single-author collections I've ever bought...  The production and
design by Arkham House are immaculate, just as they were for
Bishop's excellent novel WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE?.  If you like
literate sf and fantasy, I strongly recommend this book...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Steven Brust
Date: 1 May 85 04:02:33 GMT

     It's fun to trace influences on writers.  It's a game to which
hundreds of trees and English students have fallen, chopped down and
lulled to sleep, respectively.

     But sometimes the influences are obvious, and even
(occasionally) self-proclaimed.  So it's clear that Brunner has been
effected by Dos Passos, Haldeman by Hemingway (and Dos Passos, come
to think of it), and (Spider) Robinson by Heinlein.

     So has Steven Karl Zoltan Brust been influenced by Zelazny.
The signs are all there: The wise-ass, almost contemporary character
surrounded by scenes and beings of myth and legend.  The complex,
constantly changing relationships and forces.  The beautiful prose,
invisible in its strength, except when it jumps out and startles you
with its beauty.  The unexpected, sometimes startling humor.  The
not-quite-as-flat-as-you-first-thought characters, protagonists,
villains, and spear carriers alike.

     I *like* Zelazny.  So does Brust.  Brust doesn't write as well
as Zelazny.  Well, that's okay; no one writes just like Zelazny,
except better.  A few write differently, and also very well, and
some more write pretty well.  Brust writes pretty well.

     I'm telling you all this because, largely on the strength of
reviews of TO REIGN IN HELL, I went out and bought the collected
works of Steven Brust, and I just wanted to keep all the common
comments together.  As to the books themselves, keep reading. . . .

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: THE DRAGON WAITING
Date: 26 Apr 85 13:26:56 GMT

> Ford is a *very* precise, able, and efficient writer, one of the
> best wordsmiths I've ever read.  He tends to write just enough to
> create the effect he's after -- and no more.  He also tends to
> give the readers just enough information to figure out what's
> going on and why -- and no more.  This kind of precision in
> writing is very difficult to pull off because if the writer
> miscalculates, he can leave the reader very confused.  On the
> other hand, if he does things just right, he can leave the reader
> with an amazing sense of completion when the focal idea of the
> entire novel makes itself clearer and clearer as the last few
> chapter slowly unfold.  In THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford does it just
> right.
>
>       Ray Chen

I completely agree with you on all points.  The thing about Ford is
that, in most cases, one must read him twice to fully understand
what is going on.  Usually, I'm tempted to call this a weakness.  In
the case of writers like Ford and Gene Wolfe, its okay, because
there is so much in the book to enjoy even when the plot isn't fully
clear, and because rereading them is such a pleasure.
                                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 85 12:17 pdt
From: "pugh jon%c.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: More on Hogan and SF in general...

Pardon my flame, but I seem to be observing a lot of nitpicking over
details in a variety of books in this column.  In specific, I refer
to the discussion of James Hogan's books over the past few days.

We are dealing with science FICTION, aren't we?  Things that are
not, and, in many cases, cannot be, are par for the course.  People
seem to argue about whether or not a theory is too complex or
logically consistant.  One must recognize that there is little or no
chance of a science fiction writer coming up with a Nobel prize
winning theory of time travel.  It just isn't bloody likely.
Granted, science fiction has made some dynamite predictions, with
waldos and satellites being among the most noteworthy.  There was
even that fellow who got nabbed by the G-men for describing THE bomb
too accurately, but he invented nothing.  He only used ideas that
had been worked out and organized them into an end result, same as
the fellows working on the project.

So, what does it matter if Hogan gets a bit caught up in his theory
of time travel?  He is doing what he enjoys, which is making
increadible ideas sound plausible.  If the reader has to sit there
and disbelive, then it makes me wonder why the person is reading
fiction.  After all, isn't this supposed to be fun?  Personally, I
enjoy reading about things that do not or cannot exist, and time
travel is one of them.  I loved Larry Niven's time travel stories,
but he avoided the entire science issue by making them fantasy.  Is
that better than making up some wild theory?  Not if you enjoy
making wild theories.

As for politics, I suspect we all realize that there is NO simple
solution to our complex world.  Making a solution to that is even
harder to pull off than time travel.  Mr. Hogan has fun with it.
Wouldn't you be willing, given a genesis machine (Love that wave
theory of matter!), to try and save this planet from the fanatic
little loonies that overrun it's surface?  I would.  Unfortunately,
there is no super-being that has morals harder than adamantium, no
genesis machine, and no time travel.  So does it matter that Hogan
has a simplistic view of politics?  His emphasis was that science
can be used for good, given the motivation behind it is good.  His
hero didn't kill anyone, and everyone lived happily ever after.  And
we recognize that it is fiction, after all.  Stories don't end with
real people, and they are continuous, not discrete.  All of these
features make science fiction hard pressed to mimic reality, and I
feel that it doesn't need to.

I also agree with comments that Mr. Hogan's characterizations need
work.  Some of them come out very flat, like the lady in _Thrice
Upon a Time_, whatever her name was.  She served no real purpose
aside from proving that love is thicker than time.  And once again,
that you can live happily ever after.

In summary, I oppose all criticisms of SF theories, unless you are
willing to prove how it really is.  Plot, character, and theme (read
moral) are more what we are capable of critiquing.  I acknowledge
that there are limits to what a writer can get away with in regards
to science nowadays.  A writer must either be up on science enough
to make it sound plausible, or declare that his story operates on a
different set of rules, or "givens".  Several of the more popular
scientific "givens" are time travel, matter teleportation,
thrusters, and ftl drives.  But isn't it still fun to read _A
Martian Odyssey_ despite the fact that we now know how wrong that
image of Mars is?

"Nothing exist except atoms and empty space; everything else is
opinion."
                                                -- Jon Pugh --

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Emergence:  novel, David R. Palmer, 1984 (Hugo nominee)
Date: 1 May 85 03:59:55 GMT

     Candidia Maria Smith-Foster has just survived World War III.
She's a good survivor.  She is a extremely bright person, and
extraordinarily healthy.  She's a Fifth Degree Master of Karate.
She's the sole occupant of a well stocked, well defended shelter.

     Candy Foster is ten years old. . . .

     The best way I can say this is bluntly: the beginning is
terrific.  The second part becomes a more-interesting-than-most
travelogue.  Somewhere in that second part, Palmer starts exhibiting
the traits of Heinlein at his worst.  Mind you, Heinlein (or Palmer,
for that matter) at his best is pretty damn good.  Heinlein at his
worst is pretty bad.  So is Palmer at Heinlein's worst.  The
"Competent Man" syndrome starts nagging at the reader's disbelief,
along with the unlikely twists and turns the plot follows.  (The
straw that breaks the verisimilitude's back, though, is . . .  is .
. .  ah, hell's bells, is too much of a spoiler to tell.  Don't
worry, you'll recognize it when you see it.) A typical 1980s SF
novel: terrific beginning, unsatisfactory ending.

     By the way, some people have complained about the novel's
style, which is to conversational English what Pitman shorthand is
to longhand.  I liked it, but then, I'm weird.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Unicorn Variations:  collection, Roger Zelazny, 1983
Date: 1 May 85 04:14:55 GMT

     SF has some good novelists.  It also has some good short story
writers.  Zelazny falls into the first category, and also the
second.

     The title story is very good (and won a Hugo).  You can say the
same for "Home is the Hangman", which takes up a quarter of the
book.  Some of the other stories are only good, except for the
stories which are essays (or a foreword or afterword), which are
also good.  The stories that are only fair, Zelazny has collected in
a corner of his desk, or his trash can.  They aren't here.

     If I need to spell out to you that there isn't a single bad
story in the bunch, and that I recommend the book, you may not be
observant enough to enjoy it.  Pity.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Animated StarTreks
Date: 1 May 85 17:11:45 GMT

Hi there ---
   I'm interested in a little item that I have been half-heartedly
searching for on and off for a few years: videotape versions of the
Star Trek ANIMATED episodes that were aired on NBC saturday mornings
in 1976. (The network cancelled them not because of low ratings, but
because the "subject matter was not suitable for the younger viewing
audience"...or somesuch thing like that...  pretty weird anyway
because Roddenbery tried getting it on Prime Time, and they said
that the subject matter was not suitable for the older viewing
audience...ah, life in America...  but I degress....)
   At any rate, I would appreciate ANY leads as to where I can
purchase copies of these episodes, unless they are un-purchasable!

                   Many thanks...
                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: ccw@mtfmt.ARPA
Subject: Stolen art announcement for posting
Date: 3 May 85 06:21:43 GMT

Recently a Science Fiction artist by the name of Tom Kidd had an
exibition at Columbia University.  This past week thirteen paintings
were stolen from the exibit.  Many were book covers and should be
identifiable.  Here is a list of titles of the paintings.  In most
cases they are they are the same as the book, and I am listing the
authors of the books.  If you see any of the original paintings
please drop me a line (mtfmt!ccw) and send a copy to Lance Larsen
(ihnp4!lznv!lfl - mail to mtfmt is flakey) or better yet the artist
at:
                        Tom Kidd
                        19 Broadway Terrace #2D
                        NY, NY 10040
                        Phone (212)569-1421

1) Oath of the Renunciate
        (cover of a Marion Zimmer Bradley Book)

2) Mallworld
        cover illistration Somtoco Suchathal

3) Silent Invaders
        Robert Silverberg

4) Lord of the Skies
        (I think this was an AMAZING SF cover)

5) Shadows out of Hell
        Andrew Offutt

6) One Step From Earth
        Harry Harrison

7) The Years Best SF (1984?)
        Gardner Dozois

8) Trojan Orbit
        Mack Renyolds (Joshua's Tomb)

9) The Imperiator Plot
        Steven Spruill (sleepwalkers world)

10) Dialogue with Darkness
        Poul Anderson

11) Firewatch
        Connie Willis

12) The Frozen Wave
        Robert Vardeman

13) Meanwhile
        (?)

Everyone concerned would appreciate the publicizing of this list.
These paintings represent over six months of his life.

Thanks in advance,
 Chris Ward

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 May 85 1322-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #146
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 3 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 01:42:14-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted3

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is
seeking a route through the Mountains of Inertia on his way to
Fandom.]
                           Chapter Three
        In which Jophan tarries in the Circle of Lassitude.

     The path was steep, and by nightfall Jophan was near
exhaustion.  Worse, he had entered a region of thick fog, and he
could no longer see the path in front of him.  Afraid lest he would
take a false step and fall down the precipitous slope, Jophan
stopped helplessly and resolved to wait until the fog cleared.  But
as the sound of his own breathing subsided he heard voices above
him.  He felt his way inch by inch along the path and suddenly found
himself at the entrance to a brilliantly lit, circular cave.  It was
full of people of all ages talking and laughing and playing games.
As soon as they noticed his presence they hospitably invited him in,
gave him something to drink, and then went on with their talking and
playing.

     After a while one of the youths finished his game and came over
to him.  "Where are you bound for?"  he asked politely.

     "I am going to Fandom to publish the Perfect Fanzine," said
Jophan, "For that is what I want to do more than anything else in
the world."

     "But *this* is Fandom!"  exclaimed the youth indignantly.

     "Well, not exactly," said an older man who overheard, "but it's
good enough for us.  Actually this is only the Circle of Lassitude.
We've heard of Fandom, of course, but it's such a lot of trouble
getting over those mountains that we don't know much about it.  We
have all we want here, you see, so we're quite happy.  If you want
to know something about it, though, I could introduce you to those
three old men in the corner.  They lived in Fandom for a time long
ago, until they came back for a visit to the capital of Mundane.
They were never able to tear themselves completely away or to face
another journey over the mountains.  It's easier to come back, you
know.  By the way, my name is Leth, Robert George Leth.  They call
me Leth R. G. for short."

     The Circle was so pleasant and hospitable that Jophan decided
to spend the night in the cave.  But they had so plied him with
drink that he slept most of the following day until it seemed too
late to start.  The same thing happened the next day, and the next,
and by degrees Jophan sank into a stupor, in which he forgot the
object of his quest.  Now and then he felt dimly that he had lost
some precious thing but whenever he tried to recall what it was one
of the Circle would press a drink into his hand and distract his
attention with the latest verses of the wits of Mundane.

     One day while Jophan was talking with the others a great wind
blew from Fandom and a sheet of paper whirled into the cave.  Jophan
picked it up and examined it curiously.  Its appearance stirred
half-forgotten memories of the dazzling vision he had had from the
touch of the wand called Fanac.  "Why," he gasped, "It's . . . It's
a Fanzine!"

     "So it is," said Leth R.  G., idly.  "They blow in from Fandom
occasionally.  We never pay much attention."

     Without another word Jophan shouldered his bundle and marched
out of the cave.  The others watched him in silence, and after he
was gone it was a long time before anyone spoke.  Then they renewed
their talking and playing twice as loudly as before, as if trying to
convince themselves that they were happy.

                          [To be continued.]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 30 Apr 85 01:31:44-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 4

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is
seeking the way to Fandom.]
                            Chapter Four
           In which Jophan meets a Traveller from Fandom.

     Jophan had been weakened both in mind and body by the drinks he
had imbibed in the cave, and he found the going very difficult.  The
path became steeper and steeper, and one by one he had to abandon
all the possessions he had brought with him.  Even so, by evening he
was so tired that he had to rest on a ledge to regain his strength.
Below him he could see the path winding down into the Region of Fog,
strewn with his cherished possessions.  Further down the green
Forest of Stupidity was spread below him, and beyond that the
peaceful country of Mundane basking in the light of the setting sun.
Shivering with cold as he was, for the Mountains of Inertia screened
the sunlight from him, Jophan found the prospect enticing and it
came to him how easy it would be to retrace his steps down the path,
gather up his possessions, and return to the placid life of Mundane.

     While he was musing thus he heard a terrible sound above his
head, and cowered into the shelter of the ledge just in time to
escape a deadly landslide of rocks and loose stones.  Behind them
down the path there slithered and stumbled the highest horse Jophan
had ever seen, and on his back an angry little man, pulling at the
reins and swearing continually.  Every now and then the horse
dislodged another stone which clattered down the mountainside,
awakening a fresh landslide.

     "Pardon me," said Jophan, "but you really should be more
careful.  You might injure some of the other pilgrims on the path."

     "Serve them right," snarled the little man, without dismounting
from his high horse.  "My name is Disillusion -- *the* Disillusion,
y'know.  Who are you?"

     "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way to Fandom
to produce the Perfect Fanzine, for that is what I want to do more
than anything else in the world."

     "More fool you," sneered the other.  "Only a fool would want to
enter that place."

     "Why, what's wrong with it?"  asked Jophan.

     "What's wrong with it?"  repeated Disillusion incredulously.
"Why *everything's* wrong with it!  They're either stupid or mad,
every one of them.  Why, they didn't even come out to greet me when
I arrived -- *me*, mind you!  At first they even pretended not to
see me until I got down off my horse, and when they did speak to me
I couldn't understand a word they were saying.  And their customs!
I've never seen anything like them!"

     "Well, after all," said Jophan, "it's a different country.
Maybe if you had tried to learn the language . . ."

     "Nonsense!"  snapped Disillusion.  "They were just trying to
keep things from me and laughing behind my back.  Well, they can
have their secrets.  I don't want to have anything to do with them.
They were all against me, I tell you.  Imagine, not even thanking me
for entering Fandom after all I tried to teach them . . ."

     Speechless with indignation, he spurred the horse on again and
vanished down the path.  Jophan thought he was the most conceited
and self-centered person he had ever met, but nevertheless the
encounter refreshed him.  It seemed to him that the dislike of such
a person was a very good recommendation for Fandom.  With this new
vigor he set off again on his journey and by nightfall he had
reached a point from which he thought he should be able to reach the
summit tomorrow.  Happy in the prospect of seeing Fandom so soon, he
curled up in a little cave and went to sleep.

                          [To be continued]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 30 Apr 85 01:32:06-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 5

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is
seeking the way to Trufandom.]

                            Chapter Five
                   In which Jophan enters Fandom.

     Next morning Jophan arose with the first rays of the sun and
set off towards the now beckoning summit in good heart.  He was
overjoyed to see that there were no more gloomy people like
Disillusion coming galloping by.  They are really very rare in
Fandom, he reflected, and the thought put him in such good humor
that he redoubled his efforts to reach the top.

     Thus far in his travels, Jophan had been journeying alone, but
now he began to overtake others on the same path.  It pleased him
greatly to hear their fannish talk, and by the time he had achieved
the peak he had befriended several.  The closest of these newfound
friends were Mr.  Plodder and Mr. Erratic.

     The former was a slow-moving climber, who went straight at
every obstacle with grim determination, sometimes losing ground but
in the end winning through by the great quantity of his effort.  He
had no Shield of Umor, as most of the other travellers had, but
Jophan noticed that his skin was tremendously thick and it looked as
though even the fiercest blows would but glance off it.

     On the other hand, Mr. Erratic scorned to take great pains as
Mr.  Plodder was forced to do.  His method of progress was to wait
for an opportunity to make some great and brilliant leap which
enabled him to do in one second that which had taken the other a
full minute.  At times Jophan was greatly impressed by some
unusually clever bit of work by Mr.  Erratic, but he noticed that
the other seemed to have very little real strength and would rest
for so long between leaps that Jophan left him far behind.

     In a short time, Jophan reached the top and felt compensated
many times over for the arduous climb.  A smooth green slope ran
gently downwards into the most beautiful country Jophan had ever
seen -- Fandom.

     It was a land of streams and meadows and valleys, over and
between which ran meandering roads, dotted here and there with
cheerful cottages.  Beyond all this, in the mists of distance, he
saw yet another peak which was too far away to be clearly seen.
Jophan saw with wonderment that it seemed to have a golden radiance
about its summit.

     With glad cries the band of travellers in which Jophan had
found himself ran down the grassy slope.  Each and every Neofan felt
in his heart that he would soon reach the new peak which was called
the Tower of Trufandom, for here they had no Mountains of Inertia to
climb, and just the bright inviting land of Fandom to cross.

     After a moments hesitation Jophan ran after them, and so
brightly did the sun shine on Fandom that he and the other Neofen
(as they now were) were blinded by the light and quite failed to
notice the hazards, of which in Fandom there are many.

     As Jophan ran he was astonished and horrified to hear the eager
cries of those in front turn into screams of rage and consternation.
On shielding his eyes from the sun he perceived that some distance
ahead the verdant ground had become soft and treacherous underfoot,
in the manner of quicksand.  And to his dismay he saw that many
unfortunate wretches had broken through the surface and were being
sucked down, drawing down with them others who had sprung to their
aid.

     When Jophan saw the horrible purple stains that spread from
underneath to clog the victims' mouths and nostrils he realized that
they had blundered into the dreaded Hekto Swamp, and that there was
no help for them.  With a last pitying look he bore to the right
onto ground which had at first seemed uninviting because of its
slightly stony appearance, but which bore up underfoot, unlike the
seductive smoothness of the Hekto Swamp.

                         [To be continued]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 30 Apr 85 01:32:34-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 6

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is
seeking the way to Trufandom.]
                            Chapter Six
     In which Jophan ventures into the Jungle of Inexperience.

     Jophan soon found that the firmness of the ground was due to
the presence of mighty trees whose roots spread through the soil,
making it a secure if difficult surface to walk on.  He learned that
these great trees had flourished in Fandom since time immemorial,
and were called Abydix, Roneoaks and Ellam trees.  There was also
another lengthy name beginning with "G" which he was unable to
remember.

     Jophan had travelled but a short time over this difficult but
promising path when to his alarm he found himself confronted with a
dense jungle.  This, the Jungle of Inexperience, had not been
visible from the mountains, but apparently it stretched all round
Fandom and there was no alternative but to try to find a way through
it.  Jophan plunged bravely into the undergrowth, but the numerous
pitfalls and creepers so impeded his progress that he was eventually
brought to a standstill.

     As he paused to regain his strength, he was startled to hear a
heart-rending scream close by.  He forced his way through a dense
thicket and found himself on the brink of a mighty torrent which
roared through the jungle in the direction of the Hekto Swamp.  The
waters that leaped and churned along its course were as black as
ink, and Jophan realized that this was the notorious Torrent of
Overinking.  He was horrified to see that some yards downstream a
Neofan, doubtless the one who had screamed, was being borne away by
the flood.

     The unfortunate Neofan's cries of help wrenched Jophan's heart,
and he ran quickly as he could along the bank in an effort to reach
him.  It was plain, however, that the waters were too swift-moving,
and he soon fell behind.  The calamities that Jophan had seen
overtake his fellow-travellers began to weigh heavily upon his
spirit.

     He was, therefore, pleasantly surprised to see on rounding a
bend that a number of people were gathered on the bank and had just
succeeded in rescuing the Neofan from the clutches of the torrent.
On coming closer he saw that there was a huge pile of sheets close
to the edge and that the rescuers had knotted these together and
lowered them to the drowning Neofan.

     He discovered later that the sheets which had been used to
rescue the Neofan from the Torrent of Overinking were known as Slip
Sheets.

     Jophan joined the group and they all set off down the bank,
having agreed that it would be better to avoid the Torrent of
Overinking altogether rather then depend on Slip Sheets to rescue
them.  Further along, however, they were overjoyed to discover a
bridge across the torrent.  Laughing happily they crossed the bridge
which bore an inscription proclaiming it to be the Bridge of
Moderation, and set foot on the other side in the confident hope
that their troubles were now at an end.

     However, it seemed that they were not yet out of the jungle.
Indeed, as they progressed, the path became more and more difficult
to follow, as it wound its way among the overhanging vines and
creepers, all of a sickly light green aspect which reflected itself
in the wan faces of the travellers.  This unnatural pallor was
caused by the fact that it was very rarely indeed that a cheering
ray of sunshine ever penetrated the converging vegetation.

     It was in these unpleasant surroundings that darkness finally
forced the band of Neofen to pitch camp for the night.

                         [To be continued]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 May 85 1349-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #147
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 4 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Heinlein &
                        Kim Stanley Robinson (2 msgs),
                Films - Criticizing Films & Buckaroo Banzai & 
                        Mad Max & Zelazny,
                Television - Starlost,
                Miscellaneous - Language

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Jhereg:  novel, Steven Brust, 1983
Date: 1 May 85 04:06:44 GMT

     Vladamir Taltos is an "Easterner", a member of a race that
usually isn't more than six feet tall.  (You may be familiar with
this race.) He lives in the city of Adrilankha, the capital of the
Dragaeran Empire.  Dragaerans *do* usually grow to more than six
feet tall, and have pointed ears, but are otherwise very similar to
humans (oops, I meant, Easterners).  In this city of wealth and
magic, Vlad survives by his wits, by his witchcraft (an Eastern art,
different from Dragaeran sorcery), his skills as an "assassin"
(which is a somewhat different trade than you might think), his
familiar (which is, more or less, the Jhereg of the title), and the
handful of heavies who help him control a small corner of the city.
This is the *good* guy.  (That he comes off as likable is an
indication of Brust's skill, and of the fact that this isn't just
another swords-and-sorcery, elves-and-humans fantasy.)

     The problem is that Vlad has accepted a little job.  He's got
to kill someone who's very hard to kill, in a place where it's very
hard kill people.  If he fails, his client has promised not to kill
him for failure.  Ha.  If he succeeds, he'll probably be the first
casualty of a clan war that could kill everyone he know, and
thousands more; and if he survives that, his client may still try to
kill him.

     None of this touches upon the richness of the book.  Now bear
in mind that this solemn-sounding tale is often a rather
light-hearted adventure.  What you have is a book that's fun to
read, a book that encourages you to re-read an occasional chapter so
you know what's going on, a book that's full of most of the things
people read SF for.  Recommended.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Yendi:  novel, Steven Brust, 1984
Date: 1 May 85 04:08:53 GMT

     This is an earlier tale of Vlad, written and published later.
It suffers from the inevitable problem of a second book in a series:
it doesn't have a whole new, rich world for its background.  And it
seemed to me Vlad's problem wasn't as interesting (someone just
wants to kill him, that's all), or as well a part of all the other
problems, as in JHEREG.  But if you enjoyed the first book, you're
likely to enjoy the second.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: To Reign in Hell:  novel, Steven Brust, 1984
Date: 1 May 85 04:13:22 GMT

Roger Zelazny (from the foreword):
     "When I realized where he was going with this story, my first
reaction was, 'He isn't going to be able to pull this off.'  Not
without getting trite or cute or moralistic--or falling into any
number of pitfalls I foresaw with regard to this material.  I was
wrong.  He not only avoided them all, he told a fantastically
engaging story with consummate grace and genuine artistry."

     Brust himself has invited comparison between this book and
Zelazny's Lord of Light.  Brust has also said Lord of Light is the
best English- language novel written (so far) in the Twentieth
Century.  (In his opinion.)

     Alas, this seems to be one of those books everyone raves about
but me.  I'm not off hand sure why I don't like it a lot.  This is
the tale of a group of . . . well, beings, who were created out of
Chaos.  One, the second oldest and one of the most powerful,
disagrees with another, the oldest, and the most powerful if any is.
Their names are Satan and Yaweh.  This is the story of their
disagreement, and what comes of it.

     So what didn't I like?  I was sometimes grated and sometimes
impressed by the childlike behavior of the characters: yes, they are
powerful creatures, and yes, they are newborn innocents all.  I was
often annoyed by the triteness of the characters, and by the lack of
importance in their motivations.  I was particularly annoyed by one
Abdiel, not just by his actions but by his place in the story and
the extent to which it effected everything else.  And I was caught
off guard by the humor--this is a *lighter* book than the previous
two!

     *sigh* If everyone but me liked it, maybe you will too.  Don't
expect Genesis, don't expect Faust, don't even expect Lord of Light.
But I'm not going to scare you away from it.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: NofTheBeast - True STINKER
Date: 26 Apr 85 13:37:12 GMT

> It is true that after one reads two or three of his books, the
> characters all sound the same, but that is not what makes him a
> great s.f. writer.  It is, instead, his tremendous vision into the
> future, the fascinating nature of his speculations, that hold the
> reader.  I have read just about everything he has written.  Some
> of his books have offended me (Starship Troopers, Farnham's
> Freehold) and some have bored me (Number of the Beast and most of
> his childrens books).  Still, I come back for more everytime, and
> I find it irritating to have to wait until the paperback comes out
> so that I can afford to read his latest novel.
>                                               Bill Baker

Yes.  To paraphrase one notable SF writer (Pamela Dean), "Starship
Troopers is infuriating and you can't stay away from it."  This
happens a lot.  The thing is, as Alexi Panshin said, Heinlein could
write a laundry list that would read well.  And the other thing is,
check out which standard SF themes were FIRST covered by Heinlein,
and in many cases covered best by Heinlein.  Oh, and by the way, I
LIKE most of his children's books.

                                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 85 08:53:36 pdt
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Authors in-person

I am not sure quite what you objected to about KSR - personally, I
find his writing rather dull, having insufficient action/plot to
support his travelogue, and devoid of surprises (actually The Wild
Shore is all that I've read, and I could not finish that).

Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met
two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be rather
one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly.

-steve

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC
Subject: Re: Kim S. Robinson
Date: 2 May 85 14:17:30 GMT

Donn Seeley
> After I thought about the incident, though, I realized that
> Robinson wasn't so obnoxious after all: EVERY author I've ever met
> in person has been thoroughly artificial in just that way.  It
> must be an occupational disease...

Hey!  I think it's about time to speak up for Wild Authors I Have
Known, or something.  Those I've inspected at close range in
environs closely resembling the native habitat behave like human
beings with an apparent ease with language.  Others I've seen in
less natural circumstances, say signing books or lecturing, have, in
my experience, conducted themselves with grace and usually treated
me with no artificiality I could ascertain.  But readings and
lectures and other large gatherings suggested by publishers or alma
maters or whatever have in their nature an element of artificiality.
(Being asked to participate in these in an *occupational hazard*.)
Members of the audience will ask you all sorts of questions, some of
them useless ("Where do you get your ideas?") which seem to just
*beg* for silly answers ("There's this spring in Maine and every
year on March 21st I jump into it."); it's kind of an occupational
disease of audience members to want to ask these kinds of questions
(good grief, the person up there wrote a book that got you excited--
you want to ask them something, maybe if only to try to settle the
confusion about that excitement)(or maybe you want to verify if your
idea for a book has some congruency with what a Real author does to
get ideas).  Some people deal with audiences and their questions
with serious grace, others don't.  Some audience members like flip
answers, some don't.

I believe the issue is not whether *authors* become artificial, but
how does anyone behave in those circumstances.  What do you do when
confronted with a large group of strangers, some of whom (by their
looks?  by their questions?)  don't have the appearance of having
much in common with you.  (I'd get nervous.)  What do you do when
they ask strange questions you don't want to answer, can't answer,
consider ridiculous?  (I'd make up answers.)  (I admit, I'm not an
author. & I know people who are better at communicating
interactively than I am.  However, communicating interactively is
not something required to be an author.)

Robinson's answer sounded to me that he never intends to write more
stories in the post-holocaust environment of _The_Wild_Shore_.  To
be honest, I'm pleased.  I enjoyed the book and I think it stands
well on it's own as a novel.  I don't think it needs a continuing
saga.  I don't see any further problems I'd like solved in it.  (But
that's, of course, Robinson's choice.)  I realize some ideas or
realizations will take more words/volumes than others...  I'm
strongly reminded of a review column by Joanna Russ in an old issue
of F&SF which I recently rediscovered and re-cherished; it ends with
a paragraph about how art ends and life ends, but escapism just goes
on and on.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

PS And that's one reason why, although I have fondness for Vlad
Taltos, I think _To_Reign_In_Hell_ is the best Brust published so
far.  --lsc

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 May 85 12:01:58-EDT
From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
Subject: Criticizing the critics

  After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to
say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies.
Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most
comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few good,
supporting statements are made. Now you must remember that writing
allows much more freedom of expression than does movie making.  I
feel that given the restrictions of time, money, available actors
(with talent) and politics (which eventually enter any large
project) what we see is not too bad.  Comments I've seen are about
like this:

          WIZARDS: Generally poor
          LORD OF THE RINGS: Awful
          2010: Fair, but criticized heavily on details
          SILENT RUNNING: Some support, but mostly criticized
                          for lack of a 'realistic' plot & ending
          STAR WARS: Not taken serously
          DUNE: Horrible adaptation (I might even agree here)
          And so on...

   My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not putting
its heart and soul into SF.  No matter what they try, it gets torn
apart by SF 'fans'.  Nothing is good enough, nothing is acceptable.
Well I enjoy seeing a new SF movie, if it is a serious attempt to do
well, even if it falls short.  We see *so* little of it.  WIZARDS
was enjoyable, LotR was entertaining, and 2010 was far better than
watching the The Love Boat.
  I'm not saying films shouldn't be criticized.  If they weren't
nothing would improve.  But the impression from this digest is,
"Nothing is good enough for us. You do your best and we'll pick it
to death somehow."  Many of the criticisms I've seen are really
ridiculous. If I was a movie producer and read this digest, I
wouldn't even attempt SF.  I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a
T-shirt, and be assured to make money without anyone noticing the
plot (or lack of).
  I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the clothespins
from your noses and point out the good parts, the creative and
original ideas, the novel approaches.  Don't be in such a hurry to
jump on the bandwagon of critics that recognition is forgotten.
Support for what the industry does right may create more progress
and generate more creative ideas than continuous, boring and
tiresome criticisms.

   Comments, anyone?

  -- jd

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai theme music
Date: 30 Apr 85 00:49:30 GMT

> Someone some days back claimed off-handedly that the closing theme
> music to "Buckaroo Banzai" was from Dave Grusin's "Night-Lines"...
> Wrong!

Well, there isn't a soundtrack album available yet, but the Official
Buckaroo Banzi Fan Club is now up and running.  If you want to help
get the ball rolling on a soundtrack album, drop a line to...

Banzai Institute
c/o Diane Wilke
20th Century Fox
box 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90213

This is an old virtual address (the only one I have in the system at
the moment).  If need be, I can look up the most recent data for
you.

"The Future Starts Tomorrow..."
                                YoYoDyne Slogan
Gary

------------------------------

From: daveb@rtech.ARPA (Dave Brower)
Subject: Re: Mad Max (I) query
Date: 30 Apr 85 06:52:28 GMT

> Does the movie exist in the US without this dubbing...

No.  It's a reflection on both vagaries of international
distribution and on clout George Miller had at the time of the
original release.  Perhaps you should call Qantas...

G'Day!

{amdahl, sun}!rtech!daveb
{ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!daveb

------------------------------

From: apollo!nazgul@topaz.arpa (Kee Hinckley)
Subject: Zelazny movies?
Date: 2 May 85 14:33:30 GMT

This is being posted for a friend of mine who is not on the net.
Please reply by mail to me.  Although I dump this group to
hard-copy, I may not actually read it for several months, given my
current lack of time, and I think he would like a response a little
sooner than that.

In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page
noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and
another has been sold to be made into a movie.  Does anyone know
anything about either of these?
                                        Brad Brilliant

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 85 02:20 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Starlost reruns

I haven't seen any reruns off the Starlost series recently, but a
few months ago I saw a two-hour TV movie made by concatenating the
two "Oro" episodes (guest-starring Walter Koenig).  It was Saturday
afternoon fare on WPIX (channel 11 from NYC).  Unfortunately, it was
pretty boring.
                                        barmar

------------------------------

From: milford!bill@topaz.arpa (bill)
Subject: Native Tongue Redux
Date: 2 May 85 13:17:28 GMT

Yeah, I forgot to mention that that author of _Native_Tongue_ was
Suzette Haden Elgin.

for(i=0; i<1000; i++)
        puts("The author of _Native_Tongue_ is Suzette Haden Elgin");

I feel that it is different from Vance's _Languages_of_Pao_ or
Watson's _Embeddings_ in that not only is the environment changed by
the change in language but the psyche of the users. That's why I
mentioned Chomsky et al, who I thought maintained that language
structures mirror structures in the human psyche (brain?). So a
woman's language would imply a different built-in structures(?).  It
reminded me rather more of James Tiptree's "The Women That Men Don't
See" in which women just trade one alien environment for another.

A whole raft of tangents can be set off of from this, which might
belong in other groups like net.nlang or net.women.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  3 May 85 1359-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #148
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 May 85 1359-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #148
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 4 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 1 May 85 01:10:50-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 7

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is
traveling through the Jungle of Inexperience on his way to
Trufandom.]
                           Chapter Seven
       In which Jophan encounters the Denizens of the Jungle.

     On the next day, Jophan discovered a phenomenon which had
hitherto escaped his notice.  Here and there through the jungle were
large swathes of flattened vegetation which bore the appearance of
having been made by some huge monster which had smashed through the
jungle and left a wake of uprooted vines and splintered trees.
Alarmed by this ominous sight he warned his companions to keep
together and to proceed with caution.  But it was to no avail, for
as the day wore on first one of them and then another would grow
impatient and stride on by himself.  Others, again, would be unable
to keep up the pace of the rest of the band and would fall
discouraged and exhausted by the side of the path.  From time to
time Jophan tried to encourage these fainthearts, but he was amazed
to notice that once they started to retrace their footsteps they
seemed to disappear almost instantly from sight.  He reflected that
if the way into Fandom were as swift and comfortable as the way out,
he would feel a great deal happier.

     So it was that by the middle of the afternoon Jophan found
himself alone on the path.  He occasionally caught up with one of
those who had rushed on ahead, but each seemed either to have fallen
victim to one of the countless perils of the jungle or had collapsed
in a state of complete exhaustion from their reckless expenditure of
energy.  Several of them he found crushed and bleeding in one of the
swathes he had noticed before, and Jophan wondered with trepidation
what sort of monster was this which could create such havoc by its
mere passing.  He kept an anxious watch on the path ahead but it was
difficult to see far because of the swirling vapours that constantly
rose from the dank vegetation.  Jophan marvelled that in his first
rapturous view of Fandom he had failed to perceive any sign of this
dreadful jungle whose extent seemed to be almost boundless.

     This thoughtful state of mind was rudely shattered by a
dreadful crashing sound like that of the stampede of a hundred
elephants, and the trees further down the path split asunder.
Raising his Shield of Umor as bravely as he might, Jophan stared
intently into the steaming jungle.

     A cold shadow of terror fell across him as he failed to see any
cause for either the sound or the crushing of trees.  The Thing
appeared to be invisible.  As the mysterious trampling sound grew
nearer it took all of Jophan's courage to stand his ground.  But
then, as he peered ever more intently ahead, he suddenly perceived
that it was not one great monster which was advancing on him, but a
horde of smaller ones.  His difficulty in seeing them at first was,
he now realized, due to the fact that their markings and colorings
resembled so closely the those of their surroundings.  They were, he
could see now, hideous creatures resembling warthogs, but much
heavier, and with dreadful spikes protruding all over their squat
bodies.

     As they drew near, Jophan's eye was caught be one of the Neofen
who had earlier rushed on ahead and now lay by the side of the path
recovering his strength.  As Jophan watched, the Neofan got to his
feet to resume his journey, and, unable to see the monsters,
staggered abruptly onto the path without looking where he was going.
Jophan shouted a warning, but the creatures had already seen their
victim.  Their little red eyes gleaming cruelly, they changed
direction and bore down mercilessly on the unfortunate Neofan,
brushing aside his Shield of Umor and crushing his bleeding body to
the ground.

     When Jophan saw that the Shield of Umor was of no avail against
the monsters he was overcome with fear and would have turned to flee
had not a wondrous thing occurred.  In the distance he heard the
sound of golden trumpets, and beside him the voice of the Spirit of
Fandom.

     "Stay, Jophan!"  she whispered.  "Do not run.  These beasts you
see are called Typos and their attention is attracted by sudden
movement.  If you proceed slowly and with care you will not be
troubled by them."

     Despite these assurances, Jophan was wary of passing the
monsters, which were moving slowly along the trail as if watching
for more unsuspecting Neofen.  "But," he protested, "what if one of
their spikes should accidentally strike me?  The trail lies very
close to them and they are difficult to to detect in the
undergrowth."

     "If you go carefully enough this will not happen," said the
Fairy confidently.  "However, to set your mind at rest, here is a
bottle of magic liquid called Correction Fluid.  A touch of this
will instantly heal any wound made by a typo."  At these words a
tiny blue bottle appeared in the air before Jophan.  Clutching it in
his hand, he walked carefully past the herd and resumed his journey.

                         [To be continued]

------------------------------

Date: Wed 1 May 85 01:11:24-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 8

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is
seeking the way to Trufandom.]
                           Chapter Eight
             In which Jophan meets two Strange Neofen.

     In the days that followed, Jophan saw and heard many hordes of
Typos blundering through the jungle but, thanks to the Fairy's
advice, he came to no harm.  One day, however, he came upon a small
herd of them on the path in front of him, moving slowly in the same
direction as he.  He overtook them carefully, meaning to pass
unobserved, when to his horror he noticed that there was a Neofan in
their midst.  He was about to call out a warning when he perceived
that the Neofan was sitting, apparently unharmed, on a crude hurdle
which was actually being borne along by the Typos.  At this sight
Jophan cried out in astonishment, upon which the Neofan turned round
and greeted him cheerily.

     "Good morning, friend," he said.  "What is your name and
whither are you bound?"

     "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way to
Trufandom to obtain the Enchanted Duplicator and produce the Perfect
Fanzine."

     "I also," said the Neofan.  "My name is Kerles.  Would you care
to ride with me?"

     "No, thank you," replied Jophan without hesitation.  "To tell
the truth I should be afraid of these horrible creatures."

     "Horrible?"  laughed Kerles.  "Everyone fights shy of me on
account of these Typos, but actually they are quite agreeable
fellows.  Look, they will even do tricks for me."

     So saying, he stretched out his Shield of Umor, which was large
and brilliantly polished, and gave a word of command.  Instantly
several of the Typos jumped neatly over the Shield, performing
somersaults and such other odd antics that Jophan burst out
laughing.

     Jophan was impressed, but he noticed that while Kerles was
admittedly saving energy by this mode of travel, he was not
proceeding very quickly.  Moreover, every now and then the Typos
would wander off into the jungle, from which they were brought back
with such difficulty that Kerles seemed in constant danger of losing
his way altogether.  Jophan felt that it was impossible to press the
beasts into any really useful service, and, reluctant to remain in
the presence of the ugly creatures, bade Kerles a friendly farewell.

     He had not gone very far when he perceived another traveller on
the path, and hurried to overtake him.  By the speed with which he
was able to do so he surmised that the other was standing still, but
when he caught up with him he found that such was not the case.  The
Neofan was in fact moving forwards, but so slowly that quite a
considerable time elapsed between steps.  This time the Neofan
seemed to spend in consulting various books from a pile which he
carried under one arm, and in clearing away every tiny frond from
the the margin of the path before he ventured forward.  On the
Neofan's back was a huge rucksack which appeared to be crammed full
with heavy objects, and a bundle of peculiarly-shaped swords,
walking-sticks and umbrellas.  Jophan's curiosity was aroused by
this extraordinary mass of equipment and he addressed the Neofan
politely.

     "Good afternoon, friend," he said.  "My name is Jophan, and I
am on my way to obtain the Magic Mimeograph and publish the Perfect
Fanzine.  Could you please tell me what are these things you're
carrying?"

     "Good afternoon," said the Neofan.  "These," he said proudly,
pointing to the books, "are my guides.  These swords and things are
for cutting, shading, burnishing, and so on.  A large number of all
these are absolutely essential if one is to find one's way through
this jungle safely.  Although," he added mournfully, "I didn't want
to come this way at all.  I would have gone by the Letterpress
Railroad if I had had enough money.  My name is Perfexion, and I too
--"

     At this point there was a rustling noise in the undergrowth
and, panic-stricken, the Neofan threw all his belongings to the
ground.  Rummaging in his rucksack he pulled out a peculiar-looking
article made of wood and glass.  Holding this to his eye, he peered
intently into the jungle.

     After some moments he was apparently satisfied, and put the
instrument back in his rucksack.

     "What was that thing you were looking through?"  asked Jophan
curiously.

     "That was my 'scope," said Perfexion.  "I use it to watch out
for those... animals."

     "You mean the Typos?"  asked Jophan.

     The Neofan seemed terrified by the mere utterance of the word
and stared hauntedly into the jungle.

     "Yes," he whispered fearfully.  "Those dreadful Things.  Er...
would you like to travel with me?  It would be so much safer if we
could both watch out for... Them."

     Jophan was filled with pity for the timorous Neofan, but he
realized he would make very slow progress in his company.

     "Thank you," he said kindly, "but I'd rather just take my
chances with the Typos.  I want to get on."

     He shook hands with the Neofan and continued on his way.  At
the next bend in the path he turned around to give a friendly wave,
but Perfexion was so busy with his equipment that he did not notice.

     Jophan slept fitfully that night, his mind occupied with the
events of the day, and was up and on his way before daylight the
next morning.  So adept had he become at negotiating the jungle, and
so dextrous at avoiding the Typos, that he had covered a
considerable distance before the sun rose above the horizon.  When
it did so Jophan saw to his delight that the jungle seemed to be
coming to an end.  The trees were further apart, the undergrowth
less dense, and the path stretched invitingly in front of him, clear
and well-marked.  Jophan broke into an eager run.

                         [To be continued]

------------------------------

Date: Wed 1 May 85 01:12:17-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: ted 9

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
on his way to Trufandom.]
                            Chapter Nine
             In which Jophan encounters the Hucksters.

     In a few minutes he was standing, breathless with excitement
rather than exertion, at the very edge of the the jungle.  Before
him he saw a broad well-surfaced road which ran gently through a
fertile plain, towards where in the far distance gleamed the towers
and spires of a splendid city.  A few yards ahead of the point where
he was standing a myriad of tracks such as the one he had travelled
converged together to make the road, as countless tiny tributaries
form a great river.  Along these paths as Jophan watched, other
Neofen came running with glad cries, to dash along the road in the
direction of the shining city.

     Mindful of the unseen perils to which such over-eager Neofen
had fallen victim on a previous occasion Jophan resolved to be on
his guard, and followed the others more soberly.

     It soon became obvious that he was approaching civilization.
Although the city itself was still far away there were great
hoardings in the fields by the side of the road covered with
brightly-colored advertisements from various establishments in the
city.  Jophan read each of these, impressed despite himself at the
attractions they had to offer.

     While he was staring at a particularly large and brilliant
hoarding he was startled to hear what sounded like a cry of pain
from behind it.  Vaulting the low fence by the side of the road,
Jophan quickly ran behind the hoarding.  There, running around in
little circles and uttering heart-rending cries of anguish, was one
of the Neofen he had seen that morning.  Jophan was horrified to see
the change which had overcome him.  His once ruddy face had taken on
a dreadful pallor, and his body was emaciated almost beyond
recognition.  Before Jophan could reach him the Neofan collapsed on
the ground and began to moan piteously.

     Jophan ran and knelt by his side.  The Neofan looked up at him
wanly.  "Too late..."  he murmured, "...dying...beware...don't
buy..."  His lips continued to move but no sound came forth.

     "Don't buy what?"  asked Jophan anxiously.

     The Neofan summoned up his last reserves of strength.  "...tin
bug," he whispered.  Then his eyes closed and he ceased to breath.
Jophan saw that he was dead and consigned his soul to the Happy
Fanning Ground.  Then, tenderly, he commenced to arrange the body in
a more seemly position.

     No sooner had he raised the Neofan's shoulders from the ground
than Jophan started back in horror.  There, on the back of the
corpse, was clamped a hideous leech-like creature, bloated with the
life-blood of its victim.  Aghast, Jophan dropped the body and
stumbled back to the road.

     So stunned was he by the horror of what he had seen that it was
some time before Jophan recovered himself sufficiently to resume his
journey.  Even then he was still worried and perplexed as to the
meaning of the Neofan's warning, for so far in his travelling along
the road he had seen no establishment where anything might be
bought.

     This last problem was solved when in a few moments he rounded a
slight bend in the road.  He had arrived at a crossroads where among
a small forest of hoardings there clustered a group of hucksters'
stalls.  They were heaped with gaily colored and attractive objects,
and behind each stall stood a huckster loudly proclaiming the merits
of his wares.

     As Jophan walked past, one of them accosted him ingratiatingly.
"Greetings, young sir," he said, rubbing his hands together.  "Might
I make so bold as to inquire your name and destination?"

     "My name is Jophan," said Jophan guardedly, "and I am on my way
to Trufandom to obtain the Magic Mimeograph and produce the Perfect
Fanzine."

     "Then I have just the thing for you," exclaimed the huckster.
"It is a long journey on which you have embarked, and a lonely one.
Why not take one of these adorable little pets to beguile the
tedious hours?"

     With these words he held up a transparent case in which reposed
a captivating jewel-like creature resembling a ladybird, gaily
colored and beautiful to look upon.  Its appearance so fascinated
Jophan that his hand went involuntarily to his pocket.  "What do you
call it?"  he asked, in a last effort at caution.

     "Its a Kolektinbug," said the huckster, holding out his hand
for Jophan's money.

     With the meaning of the Neofan's warning now made hideously
clear to him, Jophan backed away from the deadly little creature and
its insidious temptation.  "No, thank you," he said.  I...I've
changed my mind."

     Pursued by curses and imprecations of the thwarted hucksters,
Jophan continued steadfastly on his way to Trufandom, pausing only
at one of the less pretentious establishments to replenish his
provisions.

                         [To be continued]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 May 85 1418-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #149
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 5 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brunner & Brust (3 msgs) &
                         Chalker & Powers (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: The Sheep Look Up:  novel, John Brunner
Date: 1 May 85 03:56:34 GMT

     I finally got around to reading this ecological tour de force.
It's damned depressing, but the quality of the story and of the
writing pulled me through it.  Not recommended if you're in the mood
for a good light read.  Excellent book.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 1 May 85 07:11:25 GMT

Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>WOW!
>
>I just read To Reign in Hell (by S. Brust) and it is a rreally
>grreat book. To be quite honest, I didn't think it was as good as
>Brin's stuff (sorry SZKB), but it is well worth the paper it is
>printed on and much more!

I don't know about how it compares with Brin, but I was really
disappointed myself, after the great recommendation by Zelazny and
all.  Oh, sure, the writing was nice enough, but it got just a bit
forced in places, and I found myself anticipating turns of phrase,
or horrid puns, and there they were, staring me in the face.

> I really like the fact that it is only a novel - I like series,
>but I like novels too, and there are too damned few of those
>around!

Uuuuuhmn, looked an awful lot like a lead-in to a sequel to me.  Any
word on this, SKZB?

> The characters are great, and the book left me wishing I was a
>little more familiar with the biblical account of this stuff.

There IS no such account.  There might be some traces of this in the
Jewish scriptures, but since many of our Jewish cohorts claim that
there is no mention of "Satan" as an angel in the Hebrew...

Brust credited Milton's "Paradise Lost" as a major source, if I
recall, and there are other plays and poems on the topic going back
quite a ways.

> In addition, I really like Brust's writing. It never gets in the
>way, and there is some great humor. I particularly liked the first
>sentence of the book. I must have read it over four or five times
>before I turned the page. I liked it enough to go out and buy
>Jehereg (spelling?), which is waiting on my "to read" shelf.

>I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea
>why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English?

Because he read the originals to Faustus.  Actually, that was one of
the touches I liked, but it wasn't Medieval English, only archaic
english.  True Medieval English would have been rather hard to read.

The things I didn't like: The characterizations all started out real
nice, but as the villainy progressed it got to be just a bit too
much to take.  If Brust wanted to offend Christians, Moslems, and
Jews, he did a real good job of it.  My real complaint, however, is
that the choice was the OBVIOUS one.  If you want to make it tragic,
take the cheap way, make Satan the good, honorable one who refuses
to go along with the duplicitous and rather foolish Y*hw*h.  And of
course God is "just another angel" and Yeshua is the last created
angel, rather than the coequal or even the first created.  Yawn.

It's been DONE.  A multitude of times, it's been done.  If you want
tragedy, make the real tragedy come out of the real losses.  I would
be impressed if the conflict between obedience and choice had been
handled in a way that didn't make God into a proto-Nixon.  Or which
dealt with a truly omnipotent God, or a truly omniscient God.  The
mechanism of reducing Y*hw*h into a mere angel, limited and
accessible, is just too easy.

I dunno.  Maybe its just because I have seen too much of that type
of thing coming out of cults, new and ancient, and it isn't a new
approach to me.  Perhaps it was because my religion was offended.  I
imagine the same kind of dissonance happens to Hindus who read
Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series.  Oh well.

>PS: Here is another question unrelated to the general topic. Being
>unsure where to ask, I will ask the kind-hearted SFLovers. What in
>blue blazes does :-) mean??

That is the infamous Snicker Icon.  It is usually left out of
articles which are intended to be taken as humour, leading to hurt
feelings and attacks of offensensitivity.  Some people leave it out
because they detest smiley faces of any form.  It infests the Usenet
more than the Arpanet, where people are politer and don't have to
tell everyone when to laugh.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 May 85 15:54:22-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #141

> I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea >
why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English?

Steve Brust can correct me on this, but I'll bet is's so that 
Beelzebub can say ``Get thee behind me, Satan!'' (instead of the 
modern ``Get behind me, man!'') toward the end.

                         **** spoiler ****

There were lots of cute touches like that; Satan inviting Yaweh and 
some angels for pin-dancing; a bunch of angels getting a committee 
together to design a variant of a horse that could live in the desert,
and so on.  More impressively, they didn't damage the plot of the book
at all.  Anthony's Xanth books are full of cute touches, to the
detriment of anything serious about the books (I invoke flames, here)
-- Xanth is made entirely of cute touches. I'm glad that some people
can add this kind of humor to a serious book.

> What in blue blazes does :-) mean??

I've heard (-: and :-) called joke brackets.  Rotate them a 
quarter-circle.  (v: ... :^) are tongue-in-cheek signs.  Anyone want 
to publish a list of useful symbols such as these?

With all available sincerity,
      Bard

------------------------------

From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076)
Subject: Steven Brust
Date: 2 May 85 13:52:28 GMT

Since there's been some interest in Steven Brust on this newsgroup,
I thought I'd repost the following from the Compuserve SF&Fantasy
SIG:

    Join us this Saturday, May 4, when our guest in CO [conference]
    will be Steven Brust, author of the delightful fantasy novels
    JHEREG and YENDI, and the astonishing TO REIGN IN HELL.  The CO
    will start at 6:30 PM EDT.  Don't miss it!

(On Compuserve, "conference" is an online meeting of lots of people,
like multi-person "talk" or terminal linking (depending on what
operating systems you grew up on.  I've never participated in one,
so I can't say too much more, but I expect I'll be in this one.)

-- David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...!{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|purdue|shasta|utcsrgv}!
          decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb
Arpa: ddb%mrvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
DEC Enet: Dyer-Bennet@KL2102, mrvax::ddb
Compuserve: 74756,723
AT&T/NYNEX: (617) 467-4076 (work)
            (617) 562-2130 (home)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 May 85 13:37 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS>
Subject: Downtiming the Night Side {*** SPOILER ***}

The opinions, conclusions, and other such things in this review are
solely my own, and are not necessarily those of anyone else.

                     Downtiming the Night Side
                            Jack Chalker
                              May 1985
                       Tor Books 812-53288-0

This is a "time war" novel, taking place in a number of times and
locales spread between the beginning of the Age of Mammals through
to the "leading edge" of time (200-odd years in our future).  The
time war is one (very important) aspect of a general war being
fought between Earth (the seriously mislabeled "Democratic
Motherworld") and the Outworlds (populated by genetically-adapted
human pioneers, intent on independence and viewed by Earth-normal
humans as inhuman monsters).

                    Technical background

Physical time travel is possible, although it requires immense
amounts of power and has some serious restrictions.  The matrix of
Time attempts to smooth out and absorb the effects of time
travelers.  If you jump back in time, you find sharing the body of a
person of that era... a person who did not exist until you made the
jump.  Time performs a "least effort" creation of a person for you
to inhabit... the person created is one whose life or death makes a
minimal difference to that time.  The person has a full history,
personality, memories, and so forth, and unless you (the traveller)
make a conscious effort to take control, the host personality
generally goes along pretty much as usual.  As time goes by, the
traveller's identity is progressively absorbed by the host's.  When
the "trip point" is reached, the host has become stronger than the
traveller... and if the traveller attempts to time-jump out of that
era, s/he ends up with the host's body rather than his/her own.  If
the traveller does not leave within a certain (varying) number of
days, his/her identity degenerates to a set of memories with no
consciousness... to abstract data... and eventually vanishes
entirely.

It's possible to interfere with Time, by altering significant events
in the time stream.  Earthsiders and Outworlders in the past (and
their recruited agents) attempt to alter historical events in ways
which will reroute history into paths which give their opposing
societies an advantage in the war.  Some of these diversions
eliminate the sequences of events which lead to the birth of the
time-travellers themselves, leaving them as "nightsiders" with
memories of a time that no longer is/was.  At this point, their
choices are basically: pick an era, jump to it, and be assimilated
(perhaps into their alter-ego in that time path), or jump back to an
era in time before humans existed...  if they go far enough back,
there will be no way that their actions can affect human-era time,
and thus Time will not attempt to assimilate them.  Many of the
nightsiders continue to act as agents for their particular sides in
the time war; some of them have passed through dozens of trip
points, inhabited many different bodies, and have absorbed (and been
absorbed into) so many different identities that they are no longer
the people that they once were, except in the most tenuous way.

               Personal comments and opinions

Chalker dedicates the book to Wells, Williamson, Leinster, Heinlein,
Garrett, Leiber, and Machiavelli.  I'm most strongly reminded of
Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps" (people looping back on themselves)
and Laumer's "Dinosaur Beach" (ditto, plus the time-war aspects).
The idea of a time traveller's identity merging with that of a host
in the target period (even though the traveller had brought his/her
body along also) is a twist I haven't run into before; it has both
good and bad effects on the story.

One reaction I felt fairly early in the book (and which remained
with me to some degree throughout) was that Chalker's theory of time
travel seems rather contrived... as if Chalker had an idea for a
plot and constructed a minimal time-travel theory to permit him to
construct the story around that idea.  In his characters'
descriptions of how time travel works, there were substantial gaps
(e.g., everything between the first detection of backwards-moving
particles in an accelerator, and a working time-suit/time-chamber
setup was glossed over).  One character commented, "... this
absorption phenomenon seems designed mostly to counter that sort of
thing." (the Grandfather paradox).  I'm sure it was (by Chalker),
but it seems a bit strange to hear a chief scientist speak of the
structure of time as being "designed".

As in the Well World series, Chalker seems to have selected a very
flexible background (alterable time, vs. the selectively-editable
universe-structure of Markovian science) with a lot of room to make
different thing happen... and then tends to use the loose rules of
such an undertaking to "pull things out of his hat" in a fairly
arbitrary way.  He sometimes seems to fall into the trap of
depending on a deus ex machina to get his characters out of (or
into!) a scrape.

This story seems to share a characteristic common to many of
Chalker's stories I've read - weak/wooden/bland characterization.
Chalker's characters don't seem to have much in the way of
distinguishing features (differences in phrasing, for example)
except when Chalker chooses to make an issue of them in particular
cases.  The blandness was made even more severe in this story by the
fact that the major characters were all subject to repeated
personality fade/shift, as an inherent (and major) part of the plot.
I have a feeling that he tends to think up plots first, and then
construct characters to "go through the motions" of acting out the
plot; I find it difficult to picture them as real people, or to care
what happens to them in the long run.  Some of the characters are
stereotypical almost to the point of being caricatures... for
example, Holger Neumann: an intelligent and sensitive homosexual
man, "The only child of an attorney... rather spoiled early on.  His
father had been something of a wimp at home, and it was his mother
who dominated almost everything either one of them said or did.".

So... what do I think of the story as a whole?  It's typical
Chalker: an interesting read in some respects, but without enough
solid data or speculation to be satisfying as a hard-science story
(a la Clarke, Hogan, or Niven), and unsatisfying as a
character-based or sentient-interest story.  As with most Chalker,
I'm not sorry I read it, but probably won't go back and reread it in
the future.

------------------------------

From: hyper!dean@topaz.arpa (Dean Gahlon)
Subject: Re: DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE
Date: 26 Apr 85 21:00:07 GMT

> I realize all this sounds very negative.  The book is not that
> bad, but it's not that good either.  Read his first novel instead,
> and hope for a better one for his third.

Actually, _Dinner_At_Deviant's_Palace_ is more like his fourth or
possibly even fifth book. The titles I know of are _Epitaph_In_Rust_
(a Laser book (remember them?) set in a future Los Angeles similar
to, but with significant differences from, the one in DaDP),
_The_Drawing_Of_The_Dark_ (similar to and close in quality to
_The_Anubis_Gates_), and then of course _The_Anubis_Gates_ and DaDP.
There may be one other Laser book; I can't now recall.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE
Date: 26 Apr 85 14:14:27 GMT

>                   DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE by Tim Powers
>
>      Powers's first book (THE ANUBIS GATES) was so remarkable that
> this novel was almost certainly doomed to suffer by comparison.
> Perhaps it's unfair to expect the complexity that one found in THE
> ANUBIS GATES in everything Powers writes, but this does disappoint
> the reader somewhat in that regard.  This is not to say that this
> is a bad book--it isn't--but it many ways, it's an ordinary book.
>                                       Evelyn C. Leeper

Interesting.  I found DADP to be superior to THE ANUBIS GATES.  Not
that his first novel was bad, but I never had the feeling that his
plot was out of control in DINNER, and I also think his characters
were deeper, and he was playing with deeper themes.  Furthermore, it
just read better--I always knew what was going on, and the tension
was real emerged from the characters and situations.  Again, I don't
think ANUBIS GATES failed at these, but to me it didn't succeed as
well.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 May 85 1141-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #150
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:

             Art - Cover Art,
             Books - Benford & Brust (2 msgs) & Dick &
                     Macavoy & Scarborough & Packaging &
                     Agnostics Prayer & Upcoming novels,
             Television - Starlost,
             Miscellaneous - The Dead and SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Art in True Names
Date: 12 May 85 06:19:18 GMT

>      First of all, you must recognize that very few sf artists
> have as muchj control over their work as you seem to think, Mark.
> Art directors often tell artists precisely which scenes they want
> illustrated, from what perspective, and so on.  When such limits
> are placed on an artist, they can prevent some of his or her
> talent from showing through.
> --Dave Axler

I think that I complained about the art, not the artist for the most
part.  The art in a book is the result of a team effort, the artist
is an important member of the team, but not the only one.  Certainly
misplaced illustrations that divulge plot twists are not the artists
fault.  The quality of a given illustration is more the artist's
responsibility, but not entirely all.  I am not sure whose fault the
unimaginative illustrations of some Bluejay books are.  Misplacing
illustrations is the art editor's fault.  Actually, if an
illustration is not good, the fault of that is also ultimately that
of the art director.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: sampath@topdoc.DEC (Superman 3.2  under field test)
Subject: Gregory Benfor novels
Date: 3 May 85 17:24:09 GMT

Can some one post/email brief reviews of Gregory Benford novels ?

Thanks in advance.

Sampath Giri

...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-topdoc!sampath

------------------------------

From: wuphys!mff@topaz.arpa (Swamp Thing)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell - Biblical accuracy
Date: 2 May 85 16:54:29 GMT

I also recently read this book and, like the origional poster,
wished I knew more about the Biblical account of the events
portrayed.  Are there any Bible types out there who would care to
comment on this?
                                        Mark F. Flynn
                                        Department of Physics
                                        Washington University
                                        St. Louis, MO  63130
                                        ihnp4!wuphys!mff

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 3 May 85 19:00:25 GMT

It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews.  Up
until now, I haven't.  All of the reviews I have read (including
yours, by the way) have been intelligent, and that is such a
pleasure that I almost don't care about how negative some of them
have been.

However, I am into bad form these days.

The thing is, there were a few points that just made me itch to
answer, so I'm going to scratch the itch.  I hope you don't mind.

>> I really like the fact that it is only a novel - I like series,
>>but I like novels too, and there are too damned few of those
>>around!
>
> Uuuuuhmn, looked an awful lot like a lead-in to a sequel to me.
> Any word on this, SKZB?

Absolutely not!  There are only three possible sequels that I can
see: First, the book of Job.  No thanks, Heinlein covered it.
Certainly not the same way I would have, but he did.  In any case,
this would have been a short story or a Novelette, which, as they
said in Monty Python and the Holy Grain, "Isn't my idiom."  Second,
the Passion.  Yeah, I could, but I'm just not interested.  The point
of the book was NOT to offend anyone, though I'm willing to if
necessary.  Doing the Passion WOULD be offensive, and I just don't
have enough interest in it to justify it.  The third possibility for
a sequel is the apocalypse.  Yeeeech!  I almost killed myself doing
the research for HELL.  Do you have any idea how much apocalyptic
literature I'd have to wade through to do a competent sequel????  No
way!!!

>>I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea
>>why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English?
>
> Because he read the originals to Faustus.  Actually, that was one
> of the touches I liked, but it wasn't Medieval English, only
> archaic english.  True Medieval English would have been rather
> hard to read.

It was Shakespearean English.  It was corrected by Shakespearean
scholar and writer Pamela Dean.  If there are any mistakes, it is
because I did over-ride her recommendations on a couple of points.

> The things I didn't like: The characterizations all started out
> real nice, but as the villainy progressed it got to be just a bit
> too much to take.  If Brust wanted to offend Christians, Moslems,
> and Jews, he did a real good job of it.  My real complaint,
> however, is that the choice was the OBVIOUS one.  If you want to
> make it tragic, take the cheap way, make Satan the good, honorable
> one who refuses to go along with the duplicitous and rather
> foolish Y*hw*h.  And of course God is "just another angel" and
> Yeshua is the last created angel, rather than the co equal or even
> the first created.  Yawn.

Okay, here we go.  If this is what you took from it, I didn't do my
job.  This is unquestionably a flaw.  But, for the sake of
discussion, I'll say this: What you describe was exactly what I was
trying NOT to do.  Satan admits in conversation with Beelzebub,
toward the end, that Yaweh had been RIGHT, that his decisions were
correct and that he, Satan, was wrong.

I never did buy that anyone with Satan's intelligence could have
revolted against an omnipotent God.  So, why did it happen?  I think
there are as many holes in my approach as in the traditional one,
but they are different holes.  However, I don't see where it was
"cheap."  I went over and over that manuscript, doing my best to
make sure there were no cheap shots, or any actions motivated by
stupidity.  If I had succeeded, you wouldn't have come away with the
opinion you did, yet I can't see where I failed.  Yaweh was driven
by love, Abdiel by fear, Satan by indecision, and Beelzebub by
loyalty.  If there was anyone in the entire book who really knew
what was going on, it was Lilith, but she was too lacking in
self-confidence to take the necessary steps.

No, Yaweh was never evil.  He was forced into evil actions, as was
Satan, by his own failings.  The real flaw in the book (I say its a
flaw because very few people have picked it up, so I obviously
didn't bring it off) was this: Abdial's actions didn't matter.  If
there had been no Abdial, things would have proceeded in almost
exactly the same way.  In some sense, that was the point of the
book, so in that sense, the book failed.  I take consolation in the
number of people who have enjoyed it anyway--to me, a book's "point"
is secondary to its enjoyment value.  This is one reason that I like
C. S. Lewis and don't like George Orwell--even though I disagree
with them to same extent.

There.  It was probably stupid to write this, but maybe you hit me
where it hurt.  In any case, I will repeat, it is a pleasure to be
read and reviewed by people who actually READ the book, and have
something to say about it, even if the review is negative.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: bunny!ehn0@topaz.arpa (Eric Nyberg)
Subject: The Works of Philip K. Dick
Date: 3 May 85 17:33:37 GMT

As a new usenik, I would like to convey my willingness to
communicate (publicly or privately) about the works of the late
Philip K. Dick.

I am a rabid PKD enthusiast, a member of the PKD society, and a
collector of PKD novels. I have an almost complete collection of his
published novels, and many of his magazine appearances. I would be
willing to give reviews, previews, etc. if anyone is interested and
has never checked him out (Phil's largest media exposure was for the
movie "Bladerunner", adapted (*very* loosely) from his novel "Do
Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". He also won the Hugo award for
his novel "The Man in the High Castle".).

I would also like to correspond with anyone who is interested in the
branch of religion known as Gnosticism, particularly in regard to
literary symbolism and character systems. Dick's later works draw
heavily on Gnostic modes of thought.

If anyone can locate a copy of "Counter-Clock World" or "The World
Jones Made", for sale or trade, I would appreciate it (These two
will complete my collection).

  ehn0@gte-labs    Eric H. Nyberg, 3rd.    GTE Laboratories
                   40 Sylvan Rd., Waltham, MA 02254 (617)466-2518

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: DAMIANO
Date: 3 May 85 16:42:58 GMT

                      DAMIANO by R. A. MacAvoy
                        Bantam, 1983, $2.75.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Many people claim to live their religion, but few so literally
as Damiano Delstrego.  Damiano seems to be in constant contact with
all sorts of wonders of Italian folklore.  Living in the Alps in the
north of Italy in the Middle Ages, Damiano takes music lessons from
the Archangel Raphael.  Damiano is the son of a witch and something
of a witch himself, but not enough of an adept to protect his
village from General Pardo's invading armies.  So Damiano goes off
on a quest to find some magical way to protect his village from war.
Along on the travels will come Macchiata, Damiano's faithful dog who
happens to talk.  What happens on this quest will leave Damiano
changed forever.

     MacAvoy's writing style is as accomplished as that of anyone
writing these fantasy these days.  Her prose is clear, simple, and
uncluttered.  This is not a book to speed through but to savor.
Like Stephen King's, for example, the plot does not advance at a
rapid pace.  There is time to develop characters and make them
three-dimensional.  I find, however, that King's long build-ups do
not so well flesh out the characters as do MacAvoy's descriptions.
King concentrates more on what his characters do while MacAvoy does
a better job of telling her reader who her characters are.  King
writes like a snapshot, MacAvoy like an oil painting with every
detail perfect.  This book may not knock your socks off, but
page-by-page it is well worth the reading.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: spock!willard@topaz.arpa (Bill Brickman '88 )
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 2 May 85 22:36:48 GMT

Does anyone have any opinions on Elizabeth Scarborough ? I have read
all of her Song of Sorcery series and am now reading
The_Harem_Of_Aman_Akbar. I hear she is coming out with another Song
of Sorcery series book about Bronwyns's baby. Is this true ?  If it
is, could someone tell me when it's coming out ?

Thanx,
Willard 'n' the rats

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: packaging
Date: 26 Apr 85 13:47:00 GMT

>> DON'T BLAME THE AUTHOR FOR THE PACKAGING OF HIS BOOK!!!
> Well, yes, few authors can even complain (and get results) about a
> proposed cover--this is true not just for science fiction authors.
> (or fiction authors)
>
> However, some biggies appear to be able to influence things some.
> I've heard Harlan Ellison at public lectures flame about getting
> them to leave off those ads and forms you often get at the end of
> a book.  He claims to have been successful.  Let's see...Patricia
> Wrede's latest (_The_Harp_of_...) doesn't have any ads, but both
> Steven Brust's _To_Reign_In_Hell_ and Pamela Dean's
> _The_Secret_Country_ do, and all of these came out from Ace this
> spring.  So, SZKB, can you comment on these ads?  I can imagine
> that Ace wouldn't give Pamela Dean much say so, since this was her
> first book, but you've got a couple.  Does anybody other than
> Ellison gripe about the ads at the end?
>
> L S Chabot

Well, uh, gee...I dunno.  I don't really care.  It would be nice if
they only advertised author's I like, or other writers in my
writer's group, but I'm not about to make a stink about it.  I've
never heard anyone else complain about such things.

They used to have an advertising blurb at the beginning of the book,
too.  I was hoping that eventually everyone in our group would
appear in the advertising for everyone else, but now they've changed
to it to a "Other ACE books by the same author" sort of thing.
That's okay too.
                                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 May 85 13:43:34-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: agnostics prayer

Two versions of same are recited by Madrak the Mighty in Creatures
of Light and Darkness

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 85 02:33:52 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Yet more upcoming novels: Asimov, Wolfe

I forgot to note in my last submission about new novels that the May
LOCUS also covers Isaac Asimov's work on the Foundation/Robot
series.  Asimov has already finished ROBOTS AND EMPIRE, which is
scheduled for a September release plus a limited edition from
Phantasia Press; the events of this novel take place two centuries
after those of THE ROBOTS OF DAWN.  For his new Doubleday contract,
Asimov plans to produce '...  FOUNDATION AND EARTH, a sequel to
FOUNDATION'S EDGE [aka LIGHTNING ROD], and PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION,
which is about Hari Seldon as a middle-aged man.  Eventually, there
will be another book tying things together.'

The June F&SF contains an excerpt from 'Gene Wolfe's upcoming
novel', but the title of the novel is never mentioned!  It's not
FREE LIVE FREE, nor does it appear to be THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN,
although it looks suspiciously similar to other NEW SUN material.
The excerpt is a little story similar to the stories told in the
Pelerines' field hospital in THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, and it is
introduced by a narrator whose locutions are reminiscent of
Severian's.  But the narrator's statement that he will relate as
much of the story 'as I recall' and the mention of the localities of
Babylon and 'Riverland' (Mesopotamia?) argue that the narrator is
not Severian and the setting is not Urth.  Still, time travel is an
essential part of the plot of NEW SUN...  Does anyone have any idea
what this excerpt is really from?

Still suffering from Wolfe deprivation (time to re-read CERBERUS),

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Starlost reruns
Date: 4 May 85 03:29:16 GMT

> From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
> I haven't seen any reruns off the Starlost series recently, but a
> few months ago I saw a two-hour TV movie made by concatenating the
> two "Oro" episodes (guest-starring Walter Koenig).  It was
> Saturday afternoon fare on WPIX (channel 11 from NYC).
> Unfortunately, it was pretty boring.
>                                         barmar

My goodness! Starlost! I haven't heard that series title since I had
seen it about 11 years ago on the CBC. I had no idea that they were
rerunning it...
          ...can anyone provide further info? Like: who is rerunning
it? A national independent like WTBN, or locals?

                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: The Dead and SF
Date: 3 May 85 19:44:32 GMT

> From: "James B. Hofmann" (RAMD) <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
> I would appreciate hearing any other comments on the relation of
> the Dead with SF or for that matter any rock groups' connection
> with SF.

Well, it seems there will be a novel out at the end of the year
called BROKEDOWN PALACE.  Does that count?
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 May 85 1209-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #151
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:

             Books - Blish & Brust (2 msgs) & Cameron &
                     Hogan (3 msgs) & Wyndham & Mugwump 9 &
                     A Request,
             Films - Sequels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: genat!geo@topaz.arpa (George Swan)
Subject: Re: Star Wars
Date: 5 May 85 09:29:52 GMT

When I was thirteen I read James Blish's "Cities in Flight" novels.
I really enjoyed them.  For those of you who haven't read them, he
did a really good job of making everything seem reasonable.

There was only one thing in those novels that stretched my credulity
to the breaking point.  I could accept gravity generators that were
able to pick up whole cities and send them shooting across the
galaxy, I could accept drugs that made you live forever, the one
thing I could not accept was an ex-hollywood movie star becoming
president of the United States of America.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell
Date: 3 May 85 17:59:08 GMT

> From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
> To be quite honest, I didn't think it was as good as Brin's stuff
> (sorry SZKB)

No apology necessary.  When STARTIDE RISING won the Nebula, I was
delighted, as well as being pleased the Nebula continued to be an
award that meant something.  An outstanding book.

> I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea
> why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English?
> >>Dave

I'm curious, too.  *I* have no idea.  Well, er, I sort of know part
of it: One of the things I was playing with there was using dialogue
to convey character (note the difference between Lucifer's speech
styles and those of Mephistopheles).  But beyond that, it just
happened.

And, by the way, thank for liking the first sentence.  It is the
only thing I have written to date that I am, without reservation or
doubt, proud of.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 2 May 85 16:07:46 GMT

Stephen Hutchison, responding to Dave Newman's positive review of To
Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust), writes:

> If Brust wanted to offend Christians, Moslems, and Jews, he did a
> real good job of it. ... take the cheap way, make Satan the good,
> honorable one who refuses to go along with the duplicitous and
> rather foolish Y*hw*h.  And of course God is "just another angel"
> and Yeshua is the last created angel, rather than the coequal or
> even the first created.  Yawn.

If someone is religious and regards his religion's account of these
events as the only true and valid way to handle the subject matter,
*sure* he'll be offended.  Sorry if your religion got gored, but as
far as I'm concerned the treatment was original and extremely well
crafted.  Before reading it I doubted that it could live up to
Zelazny's introduction, and was pleasantly surprised.  Hey, what's
wrong with Yeshua's creation, other than your reading of John 1?
His creation was unique and (by his own account) the only peaceful
one.

> I would be impressed if the conflict between obedience and choice
> had been handled in a way that didn't make God into a proto-Nixon.
> Or which dealt with a truly omnipotent God, or a truly omniscient
> God.  The mechanism of reducing Y*hw*h into a mere angel, limited
> and accessible, is just too easy.

Yaweh was not cast as a "mere angel", but as the first among them
... and after he learned to tap into the illiaster of the others, he
was MUCH more powerful than the others.  But what would be so good
about an omnipotent and omniscient God as a plot element?  Where
will you get conflict?  Imagine a Superman story that doesn't
involve Kryptonite or others from Superman's planet -- if the
character is too far ahead of everybody else there's nothing for him
to strive against.

I found it a moving and very well-written book - the more so because
I had thought the whole subject matter had been mined out centuries
ago.  I strongly recommend it!

        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: ewok@ucbvax.ARPA (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: Mushroom Planet Books (real titles!!)
Date: 4 May 85 02:39:30 GMT

<yes folks i know the all the titles!!>

The set of five books by Eleanor Cameron:

        The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet
        Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet
        Mr. Bass's Planetoid
        A Mystery for Mr. Bass
        Time and Mr. Bass

For what it is worth, I own the first book. It is a cheapie edition
published by Little, Brown and Co. (I picked it up in Dark Carnival,
in Berkeley). I strongly suspect that the books are out of print
though.  I read them all in libraries. (but if anyone finds them,
please tell me...I love them too!!)

                                -lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 85 10:42 EDT
From: Mark F. Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: re:James P. Hogan's Genesis Machine

I forget who wrote the letter I'm replying to(I left my printout at
home), but here are the reasons why the Russians didn't build
another Machine and why the Americans didn't just cut the power
off..
     1)The Machine was set to destroy any other Genesis machine the
instant the other machine was turned on. The machines effective
range as a weopon was about the distance from the Earth to the Moon,
so if a machine was built anywhere within the effective range and
turned on, Kablooie!!!
     2)The Machine had an internal power source that would give it
just enough "juice" to explode the capitals of the U.S. and Russia
if outside power were to be cut. And the Machine was in a bunker
that was "safe" from being bombed(the Machine would not be damaged
enough to keep it from exploding a city or two). Also if the machine
detected anyone trying to force their way into its innards, another
Kablooie!!!
     So, in effect, the Genesis Machine was "invulnerable"(or at
least couldn't be put out of operation without a lot of people being
put "out of opertion").  And of course since ICBM's
(Inter-continental Ballistic Missles) would not be of any use
(because they couldn't reach their targets), and the "defensive"
missles had been left alone, attacking another country would be very
"uneconomical"(ground-to-air missles would get most enemy planes
before those planes could do any damage). So what do we have??? An
enforced peace, that apparently after 200 yrs gives everyone a
chance to forget any hatred to one another...(thought seems to me,
we are a very innovative race; we would find someway of fighting one
another. But, there's always hope).

See ya
Mark Rand   (Queens College, New York City)
Bitnet- Tigqc356@Cunyvm
Compuserve I.D. - 75615,1712

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan  (Genesis Machine *SPOILER*)
Date: 30 Apr 85 18:03:22 GMT

eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
(concerning the J-machine)
> ... Second, the epilogue is totally unconvincing; the only two
> possible endings I can see are: 1. The USSR manages to send an
> agent to cut off the J-Bomb's power supply; this has the result of
> destroying the USA army, and USSR now easily takes over the world
> (and then, perhaps, proceeds to make Clifford into a national
> hero). 2. The USA moves all its military instalations to new
> locations, and then cuts off the J-Bomb's power supply and builds
> another one; however, this gave the USSR time to build a J-Bomb of
> its own, so the "Balance of Power" is not solved, but just
> continues forever.

With the ability to create and destroy matter at will, it is
doubtful that the J-machine is relying on an external power supply.
More likely there would be equipment breakdown resulting in a
shutdown of the machine. Maintaining an tiny Artificial Black Hole
would have it's toll on any equipment, and I saw no mention of
robots capable of performing maintenance.

Sean Casey --
UUCP:   {hasmed,cbosgd}!ukma!sean or ucbvax!anlams!ukma!sean
ARPA:   ukma!sean<@ANL-MCS> or sean%ukma.uucp@anl-mcs.arpa

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker)
Subject: re:James P. Hogan's Genesis Machine
Date: 3 May 85 18:58:18 GMT

>      2)The Machine had an internal power source that would give it
> just enough "juice" to explode the capitals of the U.S. and Russia
> if outside power were to be cut. And the Machine was in a bunker
> that was "safe" from being bombed(the Machine would not be damaged
> enough to keep it from exploding a city or two). Also if the
> machine detected anyone trying to force their way into its
> innards, another Kablooie!!!

Naaah.  The Government had full access to the insides of the
machine; they had to keep it completely maintained or, if there were
too many failures, the thing would assume that it was being
systemticlly deactivated and start vaporizing cities.  Also, the
offensive use of the machine was limited to an area within defined
boundaries, but they could still use it, albeit in a limited area.

It seems to me that a small thermonuclear warhead placed judiciously
within the machine itself would have shut it down effectivey.

Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin
{seismo!ut-sally | decvax!allegra | tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury
mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: TROUBLE WITH LICHEN
Date: 3 May 85 16:44:23 GMT

                TROUBLE WITH LICHEN by John Wyndham
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Last August I review WEB, supposedly a John Wyndham that had
not been published before.  My suspicion was that it was not a John
Wyndham novel--it was only published under that name.  No, I'm not
suggesting it was ghost- written.  I am sure it was written by the
same man who wrote great books like THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, but I
am not sure he intended WEB to by written by John Wyndham.  Huh?
Well, John Beynon Harris was a long-time science fiction writer in
Britain.  His full name in print is long enough to wrap around your
waist.  He wrote a lot of mediocre science fiction under a number of
pen names, all of which were substrings of his real name.  His best
material somehow always came out under the name "John Wyndham," and
people began to realize that the John Wyndham novels were pretty
good.  Harris died in the late Sixties and WEB was never published
until recently, it appears.  Then the publishers picked Harris's
most bankable pseudonym.

     In any case, as I was reading WEB I was feeling pleased that
here was a John Wyndham that I'd never read.  Then it occurred to me
that there were a handful of genuine John Wyndham novels I'd never
read; most seemed like juveniles, but then there was TROUBLE WITH
LICHEN.  Harris wrote it late in his career and it is really not too
bad.  In some ways it is very much like the Alec Guinness comedy THE
MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT.

     The plot concerns a strong-willed young woman who gets a job at
a research establishment and through an accident discovers a lichen
derivative that very much slows down the aging process.  Users will
live varying amounts depending on dosage and when usage begins, but
usually about 200 years.  The woman goes into business for herself
developing the drug, and the head of the research establishment
independently develops the drug, neither knowing that the other
knows the power of the drug.

     The woman, to get around the law, opens a beauty products
business and secretly gives the drug treatments to wives of
prominent government dignitaries.  There is an interesting legal
problem in that she very openly tells her customers, "Our products
will keep you younger longer."  Can she be blamed for telling the
truth when lying hype is expected?

     Antigerone cannot be made totally public because there is only
enough lichen in the world to treat a few thousand people.
Announcing the drug would assure that just the wrong people get it.
Further, the social impact of the drug would be incredible.  Well,
the news does leak out eventually, and the world goes into chaos.
Morticians and socialists, for different, demand that the drug be
banned.  So do certain church groups.  If all this seems a little
unlikely, think of the real life social uproar a few years after
this was written when a pill to prevent pregnancy was invented.

     I cannot claim that this is a particularly well-written novel,
or that I believe the nature of the uproar caused, but the magnitude
of the chaos is more than the reader expects, but probably less than
would actually occur.  Reading it, I was thinking it was really
lesser Wyndham, but thinking about it afterwards, that is still
pretty good.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 03:03:14 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: "MUgwump 9"

The story that Laurence Brothers mentioned, wherein the hero gets 
caught in the midst of a cabal of sinister midgets by dialing a 
MUgwump number instead of a MUrray Hill number, is actually by Robert
Silverberg.  (The title is indeed "Mugwump 9" as above).

Rather than let him loose to spoil their plans to take over the world
and kill all tall people, the midgets just send him back in time to
the point just before he made the call, thus trapping him in a time
loop.
                                --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 85 12:31 pdt
From: "pugh jon%c.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Another "Does anyone remember?"

I read this great short story in an anthology of the large hardback
variety way back in high school and have been unable to relocate it.
Perhaps you can help by reminding me and let someone else read it
who hasn't.

The hero and his ship are hurtling downward on an uncharted planet
(of course) after taking a hit in battle.  (This must narrow it down
to at least a third of infinity!)  On the planet are giant creatures
engaged in the common creature pasttime, sex.  However, our hero,
and his ship, are about the size of a single sperm cell.  Now,
evolution takes a wild turn with Mom guarding her egg by shooting
down every sperm she can.  She mistakes our hero for a sperm but he
manages to avoid being hit by using his computer.  Nevertheless, he
hurtles into the egg where he is merged into a new critter with the
ship built in.  And that's all I remember.

Does this ring any bells?  I want to read it again, but I have
trouble finding the proper anthologies anywhere.  It was like the
_Norton Antho of SF_ or some such nonsense.  If you reply to me,
I'll cull the duplicates and inform the net afterwards.  Thank you.

                                                -- Jon Pugh --
                                                pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

From: vijay@ucbvax.ARPA (Vijay Ramamoorthy)
Subject: Any news on Alien II or Sword & Sorcerer?
Date: 4 May 85 04:40:12 GMT

Two movies I particularly enjoyed were Alien and The Sword and the
Sorcerer.  I heard that another Alien was in the works, but not much
more.  As for the TSATS, sometime during the end credits it was
mentioned that Talon would return in a new movie.

Anyone else heard anything more?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 85 1027-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #152
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Zelazny (3 msgs) &
                        Pittsburgh SF Story &
                        A Book Request & Stories Set on Mars,
                Films - Defcon 4 & Zelazny Movies,
                Television - Starlost ,
                Miscellaneous - British Names & Criticizing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 May 85 07:57 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Asimov's plans?

I read _Foundation's Edge_ and _The Robots of Dawn_ and I would like
to do some predictions of what I think is to come from Dr A.

                        **** Spoiler Warning ****

In both these books, and the short _Liar_, Isaac introduced
telepathic robots, with differing results.  Lenny was the first such
robot, and as such was doomed to failure, as most prototypes are
(you should see our new Cray!).  In _Robots_ they worked much better
and had gotten very subtle, a dangerous and/or necessary trait that
allows them much more versatility.  Would robots be really useful if
they couldn't make decisions on their own?  I think they would need
to ask every 20 nanos or so if they weren't capable of deciding on a
course of action and following it.

In _Edge_ the robots finished the ultra-subtle problem of ETs.  They
zapped time around so that there weren't any ETs, just humans.
After all, that is the safest way for humans to live.  I doubt any
aliens could stand to live in the same universe as us, regardless of
whether we could handle it.  I mean really, we don't even like each
other.  So anyhow, the robots have been subtly controlling us, even
to the point of playing with the fabric of space/time.

What is missing?

The book in which they do zap the old path of time, of course.

I think Isaac has his next project going.  We'll see.  If he
doesn't, perhaps we can persuade him.  Send those cards and letters.

By the way, does anybody know if Dr A really uses a Trash 80?

                                        -- Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations:  collection, Roger Zelazny, 1983
Date: 3 May 85 18:19:16 GMT

>      If I need to spell out to you that there isn't a single bad
> story in the bunch, and that I recommend the book, you may not be
> observant enough to enjoy it.  Pity.
>       -Paul S. R. Chisholm

It comes as no surprise that I agree with you.  I would also like to
point out, however, that in between the stories he makes comments on
writing, and what he learned, and how to do it, etc.  This is also
true of his previous collection, THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMALOT.  For
anyone with an interest in writing, fiction writing in particular,
these two books are a must.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 85 12:46 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Zelazny -- Trumps of Doom

The Trumps od Doom is out!  Hardback for $15!

The story centers around Merlin, the son or Corwin and Dara (one of
the Nobles of the Court of Chaos).  As usual, there is trouble with
at least several forces trying to kill Merlin (and others).

This is the first book in a trilogy about Merlin.

The story starts with danger and unexplained occurrences.  You
expect things to be explained as the story progresses, but things
keep getting more and more complex.  So as not to spoil the book,
let me just say, I hope the next book is out soon!

John R. Mellby  (214)952-2139
Texas Instruments, Dallas
JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Zelazny -- Trumps of Doom
Date: 6 May 85 15:40:00 GMT

> From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> The Trumps od Doom is out!  Hardback for $15!
>
> John R. Mellby  (214)952-2139

Hot damn!  (And hello, John; remember me?)

I had the pleasure of speaking with Mr. Zelazny just after he had
sent that one off to the publisher.  I asked him, "Are you happy
with it?"  He chuckled evily and said, "Well, people who don't like
cliff-hangers are going to be mad at me."

I can't wait!
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Pittsburgh Sci Fi Story
Date: 2 May 85 18:07:19 GMT

>       About 15 years ago, I remember reading a SciFi story which
> took place in the East Liberty neighborhood of Pittsburgh
> specifically around the East Liberty Police Station. I don't
> remember any of the plot.
>
>       I was living in the area at the time as a student at CMU.
>
>       It was a short story not a novel.
>
>       Does anyone remember the author or title of the work?  --
> Mark C. DiVecchio K3FWT

The story you have described is "The Circuit Riders" by R. C.
FitzPatrick from Analog. It is in the collection "Analog 2" edited
by John W. Campbell. The second printing of the Paperback Library
edition I have was printed August, 1971, which is approx. the time
you mentioned.
                                                Joel Upchurch

------------------------------

From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: YABT (Yet Another Book Title)
Date: 5 May 85 08:45:37 GMT

Mankind (slight future) has a disease in which we perceive time as
flowing the wrong way.  We got this mind illness just a generation
or two ago (ie about 50 years in the future)... When viewed from the
correct perspective, life seems very different: Matter coalesces
from nothing into a human being, and slowly goes through a cycle,
from needing to be taken care of, to being fully dependent, to being
dependent again, to finally finishing your life by giving
nourishment to your mother..  Universe is similarly optimistically
oriented: from heat comes order, meaning, all coalescing, until
finally coming together in a huge mass of brilliance and energy.
None of this depressing entropy stuff...  The most interesting thing
I remember is that for a couple days after I could perceive the
world in this time-reversed form as well as our standard way...  I'd
like to read this book again -- any help would be appreciated.

                Steven Grady
                (...ucbvax!ucbdali!grady;
                 grady@ucbdali.Berkeley)

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Stories set on Mars?
Date: 6 May 85 05:52:44 GMT

Here's something a bit different. I'm looking for stories set on
Mars. I'm aware of many of the more famous stories such as Barsoom
and Martian Chronicles, of course, but drop me a note with your
favorite Mar's stories.

Please use mail, not news, and I'll post a followup on this if
interest warrants.

:From the offices of Pagans for Cthulhu:          Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui   nsc!chuqui@decwrl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: DEFCON 4
Date: 3 May 85 16:43:25 GMT

                              DEFCON 4
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     There is a certain genius to making low-budget films to compete
with high-budget films.  DEFCON 4 has a nuclear war, satellite
warfare, flying missiles, and a post-holocaust battle for survival,
all on a pocket change budget.  In the first half of the film, the
producers almost make the story work in spite of its budget.  In the
second half, the film bogs down into a rather cliched story of good
guys trying to escape from the bad guys' encampment.

     In the Fifties, cheap films wanting to show nuclear blasts used
government footage.  The same nuclear blasts would show up time and
again in films.  DEFCON 4 has the entire nuclear war watched from a
satellite and computer graphics provide the visuals.  Just when the
story starts to drag our heroes are pulled out of orbit and into a
battle against some soldiers setting up their own dictatorship.  The
feudal society is shown at first with some wit--sort of a ROAD
WARRIOR meets PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO--but the story quickly
degenerates to one of good guys trying to escape the clutches of bad
guys.  In the first half the wit and the tedium run neck and neck;
in the second half the tedium pulls out in front.  then it really
starts to bore.  Because the post-holocaust world is shown with so
little regard for scientific accuracy and because so much of the
film is cliched, this one rates a -1 on a scale of -4 to +4.  The
few good moments don't outweigh the many bad ones.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Zelazny movies?
Date: 4 May 85 03:38:44 GMT

> In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page
> noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and
> another has been sold to be made into a movie.  Does anyone know
> anything about either of these?
>                                         Brad Brilliant

I'm a week behind on reading SF-LOVERS, so if someone posted a
response to this already, please forgive the redundancy...

Unfortunately, Zelazny's "Damnation Alley" was made into a movie
starring George Pappard and Jean-Michael Vincent...

...It was a rather silly rendition (in my opinion) that was originally
to be slated as "Survival Run," but at the last moment the producers
decided that "Damnation Alley" wasn't that bad of a title after
all...

Anyway, the movie took rather large liberties with the book (which I
enjoyed, if someone wants to gauge my opinion of the movie based on
that :-) ) and added alot of goofy SFX and and neat truck....

...the movie was, however, not a waste of time and fairly enjoyable...
not, I assume, for the reasons that the producers intended, but
rather for reasons that we all enjoy Godzilla movies...For instance,
we get to here George Peppard say wonderful things like: "Look Out!
They're 'Killer Cockroaches' Repeat: 'Killer Cockroaches'!!!!"
without so much as cracking a smile....

                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 May 85 00:07 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Starlost reruns
To: uwmacc!demillo@TOPAZ.ARPA (Rob DeMillo)

As far as I know, Starlost is not being rerun anywhere.  My message
was a response to someone's question last week about whether it was
being rerun.  Since my response about the tv-movie version was the
only response, it's probably safe to assume that it isn't being
rerun.  It certainly isn't being shown on any of the stations on my
cable TV, which includes WOR (New Jersey) and WTBS (is this what you
meant by WTBS?).  It seems unlikely that they would bother
syndicating a 16-episode series that was not very popular in the
first place.
                                        barmar

------------------------------

From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch)
Subject: Re: More on the name of Piers Anthony
Date: 9 May 85 18:08:26 GMT

Appropos of nothing, I had a flatmate by the name of Piers Anthony
Fenn Letcher when I was at university.(I'm British by the way, and
so was he) Apart from indicating that we in the U.K. have a penchant
for strange names, I agree that it is rather strange that this
combination of christian names is cropping up.  Since this flatmate
of mine was an ex public (i.e. private in the U.S.) school boy by it
may well indicate, shall we say, an "upper class" connection. I
shall look into it...

                      Chris Welch (csw@ukc)

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics
Date: 05 May 85 02:00:45 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to
>say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies.
>
>       WIZARDS: Generally poor
>       LORD OF THE RINGS: Awful
>       2010: Fair, but criticized heavily on details
>       SILENT RUNNING: Some support, but mostly criticized
>                       for lack of a 'realistic' plot & ending
>       STAR WARS: Not taken seriously
>       DUNE: Horrible adaptation (I might even agree here)
>       And so on...
>
> My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not putting
>its heart and soul into SF.  . . .
> Comments, anyone?
>  -- jd

I certainly agree that a much more even handed manner of criticism
would be very welcome.  At present my impression is that people who
are upset or who have axes to grind are much more likely to send to
the net than people who are pleased or satisfied.  This hardly seems
fair to whatever (and particularly, whomever) is being criticized.
If somebody has done something well, s/he should be made aware of
it.  It's more than just a matter of praise for a job well done
(though that alone is an adequate reason); how likely is it that the
good practices will be continued if nobody points out that they are
good?  If, for instance, you want gorgeous music in the soundtrack,
make your praise for the movies that have it known.  Don't simply
assume "it's all right, they know it's good".  Look at how Spielberg,
who is no fool in producing popular movies, misunderstood the appeal
of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when he made "Temple of Doom".

Other things contribute to heavy criticism, too.  There is a certain
unintended intimidation in biting criticism that makes people who
were about to offer praise withhold it, perhaps for fear of looking
foolish, credulous, or undiscriminating.  How many people are going
to admire publicly the realization of the sandworms (for example)
in "Dune", when the movie has been taken to pieces for its editing,
its failure to do what, for a movie, is nearly impossible (show all
the subplots of the book), and its altered ending?

There is also the tendency in people, when presented with a list of
critical opinions, "...by swift agreement to seem wise themselves"
(as Tolkien put it in describing Saruman's spell over his
listeners).  When shown a weight of negative opinion, people who are
not yet certain of their own feelings, or whose feelings are not
terribly strong, tend to be swayed to the negative ("so many people
seem to dislike it, I guess I see their point").

Further, I find it curious how a single small irritant can become a
focus of dislike, to which critics gravitate (pardon the mixing of
metaphors).  Witness the "pen scene" in 2010: it had no impact on
the course of the story, lasted for barely a few seconds, and was
not wildly inaccurate.  Yet complaints about it cropped up over and
over again, giving the impression that 2010 was a rather seriously
inaccurate film.

Will you allow me one more opinion?  The net is widespread, and
there must be many potential contributors to the bboard.  Suppose
one of them, in a review, notes a flaw about which almost everybody
agrees.  If all those potential contributors then, briefly, become
actual contributors to say something like "you know, I noticed that
too", suddenly there is a mass of criticism of the same point on the
board.  Suppose, instead, one of the first reviews of 2010 had
remarked how beautifully the Discovery's rotation was done, and how
splendid the night side of Jupiter looked.  If 20 agreements had
followed that, they would have looked like rave reviews for the
film.

The conclusion of all this?  I suspect the strongly negative
appearance of much of the criticism is often not to be taken at face
value, being rather the result of coincidence and the nature of
people.  What can be done to give a more balanced appearance?
Perhaps more care in what the critics say; remembering that praise
of the good is as necessary as criticism of the poor; and not
permitting a predominance of adverse opinion to subvert good
opinion.  Even genuine stinkers often have something worthwhile in
them, and it should be pointed out.

Well, that's more than enough philosophy for me, for now.  Other
comments?

   Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 85 1044-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #153
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Cameron & MacAvoy &
                    Great Sf Stories of 1939,
            Television - Starlost,
            Miscellaneous - SF Bookstores in London

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gitpyr!roy@topaz.arpa (Roy J. Mongiovi)
Subject: Steven Brust: To Reign in Hell, et al
Date: 3 May 85 15:12:59 GMT

So what was so great about "To Reign in Hell"?  Except for the
names, it could have been a misunderstanding among a bunch of Old
Jewish Grandfathers.  I mean, Yahweh is just sooooo incredibly
stupid I just couldn't see the point of the novel - "Oh, I'll just
sit here and imagine that my best friend has turned against me, no
need to bother with going out and trying to meet him myself and
clear the problem up...."  Gimme a break.  Or was the whole point of
the novel that Yahweh is a Cosmic Muffin that Brust isn't too fond
of?

Don't get me wrong, I liked Jhereg, and I loved Yendi.  I mean, if
you want to talk about books that grab you from the first page, I'm
absolutely wild about his onion paradigm of life.  After that I
couldn't put the book down.  And I also think that "God Slayer" is
an absolutely awesome name for a sword (I hope to encounter it again
in the remaining books in the series).

On a slightly different topic, does anyone have any suggestions for
good recent science fiction?  Recently all the new books have been
fantasy, or at most science fantasy.  Even Niven's "Integral Trees"
was pretty innocuous, although enjoyable.  Maybe I have to wait for
that long promised sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye."

Roy J. Mongiovi.  Office of Computing Services.   User Services.
Georgia Institute of Technology.
Atlanta GA  30332.
(404) 894-6163
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Why Beelzebub speaks old English
Date: 6 May 85 15:03:57 GMT

> From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
> Personally, I assumed it was just so the author could use the
> "Milord, get thee..." line (I'm trying not to introduce a spoiler
> here).  How 'bout it SKZB?  Care to enlighten us (I'd have asked
> you at Minicon, but I had just purchased the book and didn't read
> it until 2 days later)?

I wondered if anyone would think that, but no.  That line was added
at the last possible minute, right before the ms was turned over to
the printer.

I same to have a habit of doing that.  The first line in YENDI about
the newt was put in at the beginning, but the second reference to
it, toward the end of the book, was called in to Terri Windling just
before the book went into page proofs.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 1985 14:18:25 EDT
From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: More on the Mushroom Planet

     The 'Mushroom Planet' books were written by Eleanor Estes
Cameron, who also wrote "The Shy Stegosaurus of Cricket Creek,"
another very good kid's book.  Mr. Bass' name, as I recall, is
supposedly short for his actual name on the Mushroom Planet, which
was "Basidiomycetes", a species of mushroom.  All of Cameron's books
were quite good -- I remember reading them several times over as a
kid.

------------------------------

Subject: DAMIANO and successors
Date: 07 May 85 01:19:52 PDT (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

If you liked "Damiano", be sure to read the rest of the trilogy
(seems inevitable these days, doesn't it?): "Damiano's Lute", and
"Raphael".  In going through them, and especially after looking back
at "Damiano" again, my impression is that MacAvoy gains security in
her conception of Damiano and his world, and the hightened security
allows her writing to flow more freely and smoothly.  The beauty
that she paints in "Damiano" grows greater through the next two.
"Raphael" is, to my mind, the greatest of the three, a culmination.
I could hardly put it down.

Try them!

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: GREAT SF STORIES (1939)
Date: 3 May 85 16:44:01 GMT

                   THE GREAT SF STORIES: 1 (1939)
            edited by Isaac Asimov and Martin Greenberg
                         DAW, $1.95, 1979.
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     There are several best-science-fiction-of-the-year anthologies
these days.  I think they may have been inspired by the success of
the annual Judith Merril anthologies that were popular when I was
first reading science fiction.  Every year the Merril anthology
could be counted on to be the best stories.  Later, Merril started
picking too many "New Wave" stories and I started to lose interest.
However, picking up where she left off, Donald Wollheim and Terry
Carr started co-operating on year's best anthologies for Ace Books.
Later, they split up and each individually edited a year's best
anthology, competing with the other.  A number of other editors
tried to get into the same act including Forrest J. Ackerman.  These
days, I am not sure there even is a year's best anthology edited--at
least it has been a while.

     Back in 1979 Isaac Asimov and/or Martin Greenberg apparently
realized that there were no year's best anthologies for the years
prior to Merril's first year's best.  (Actually, that is not,
strictly speaking, correct.  I believe that Dikty may have edited
some minor year's best anthologies in the early Fifties, but they
were hardbacks and did not have a wide circulation.)  They started
co-editing year's best anthologies for the years they really enjoyed
reading science fiction.  Asimov (without Greenberg) edited a
catch-all anthology, BEFORE THE GOLDEN AGE, to cover the science
fiction written before 1939.  Then every few months they edited a
year's best anthology for 1939, 1940, etc., up through 1950 or so.
They may not be finished yet.  I will discuss here the 1939
anthology.

     My first comment is that most of the introductions are by
Greenberg, with little parenthetic comments by Asimov.  It leads me
to believe that Asimov does not have much of a hand in these
anthologies in spite of having "Isaac Asimov Presents" plastered all
over the cover.

     This is a good anthology.  The stories are more idea stories
and less writing exercises than many more current.  Most of the
stories express a scientific idea.  Some develop it slowly; some
give it to you with a big punch ending--what Dale Skran calls a
"tomato surprise" story.  Actually, I think a lot of surprise ending
stories.  Tomato surprise is a good way to slam-dunk an idea to the
reader.  If an idea is presented anywhere else in a story, the
reader can sit back and let the author handle the idea in the rest
of the story.  A surprise ending tells the reader, "The idea is in
your court; you have to bat it around."

     The stories in this anthology give a real sense of chronology
to the period in which they were written.  They are in chronological
order and before each we are told the magazine and the month when
the story appeared.

     "I, Robot" by Eando Binder: This story will be familiar to
people who have seen the OUTER LIMITS adaptation or who have read
very similar stories by Asimov himself.  Not a really well-written
story, but a striking departure at the time.

     "The Strange Flight of Richard Clayton" by Robert Bloch: Not
the best of Bloch, but it would have made an okay TWILIGHT ZONE
episode.

     "Cloak of Aesir" by John W. Campbell: This is a fondly
remembered story by the great author/editor.  I never read it until
recently.  This is a gut-wrenchingly bad story.  The writing comes
off more as a lesson of what should not be done in writing a science
fiction story.  This one was real tedium to read.  I guess somebody
editing felt they owed a debt to Campbell.  Avoid it.

     "The Day Is Done" by Lester Del Rey: This one makes up for
"Cloak of Aesir."  I have read all the short stories and novelettes
nominated for the last two Hugos.  This story of a Neanderthal
living among Cro-Magnons is better than any piece of short fiction
nominated for a Hugo for a good long time.  I'd call it historical
(or prehistorical) fiction rather than science fiction, but it is a
very fine piece of story-telling.

     "The Ultimate Catalyst" by John Taine: Taine--really Eric
Temple Bell-can be a good writer, but this is more of a weak horror
story memorable only for a number of rather grotesque images.

     "The Gnarly Man" by L. Sprague de Camp: This suffers by
comparison to "The Day Is Done."  It is a more light-hearted look at
a Neanderthal, but this one is immortal and making a living as a
side-show freak.  He reminisces about history only slightly more
seriously than Mel Brooks's 2000-year-old man.

     "Black Destroyer" by A. E. Van Vogt: This is good science
fiction of the ilk of the film ALIEN.  Coeurl is one of the better
hostile alien creatures I can remember.  He has a battle for
survival with some passing earthmen.  This story is part of VOYAGE
OF THE SPACE BEAGLE, just about the most monster-menaced voyage
since THE ODYSSEY.

     "Greater Than Gods" by C. L. Moore: Whether you are
pro-feminist or anti-feminist or something in between, this story
will stick in your craw.  A scientist has developed a means of
choosing the sex of a child before it is born.  At the same time, he
is trying to decide whom he should marry and is able to see a
different nightmare future which would come out of each possible
marriage.  Not so hot.

     "Trends" by Isaac Asimov: Recent history makes Asimov's third
published story more prophetic than it deserves to be.  It is the
story of a man trying to invent the spaceship in spite of the
American public being galvanized against him by an evangelistic
preacher.

     "The Misguided Halo" by Henry Kuttner: This is pure fantasy
concerning a man who was accidentally given a halo by an incompetent
angel.  The story concerns the man's attempts to rid himself of the
distinction.  The story doesn't really go anywhere; it creates a
problem but doesn't solve it.

     "Heavy Planet" by Milton Rothman: This has a number of
well-written scenes, but it does not really go anywhere as a story.
It just seems that the author ended it when he was tired of writing,
much like the previous story.  The title concerns an alien who finds
a derelict human spaceship and wants its secrets for his people.

     "Lifeline" by Robert Heinlein: This is a good story, but it is
merely a re-telling of an old idea.  The question it asks is, if we
really could know the date of our death, would that be a good thing
or a bad thing?  Of course, whenever the story is told, it turns out
to cause untold misery to the person who finds out.  It seems
particularly inappropriate in science fiction, since much more in
science fiction than in fantasy the reader is likely to ask, if a
person has been given a death date 20 years off, what happens if you
put him in fatal circumstances now?  Try dropping a piano on him.
What happens?  Still, it is not a bad treatment of the story.

     "Ether Breather" by Theodore Sturgeon: This story is an odd
combination of being near- and far-sighted.  In 1939, it was
predicting for 200 years in the future competing television networks
and the society is just getting around to color TV and taping.  His
TV networks are much like those of early television some twelve
years later.  On top of that he puts a whimsical story of signal
tampering.  Sturgeon might have thought that that was the main
thrust of his story, but the background was far more interesting.

     "Pilgrimage" by Nelson Bond: This is a well-written if unlikely
story of a far future savage America following a literal "war of the
sexes."  It is the first of three stories Bond wrote about Meg the
Priestess.  This is the story of how Meg became a priestess and
discovered the guarded secret of the priestesses.

     "Rust" by Joseph E. Kellean: Earlier we had a story about
television and here is a story about robots.  These were both
concepts that much of the public learned about for the first time at
the 1939 World's Fair.  I think it was no coincidence that these
stories show up published not long after the summer of 1939.  "Rust"
is the earliest story on the "Berserker" concept that I can remember
seeing.  It is about war robots who couldn't be turned off and ended
up killing all men.  As the title suggests, they too have their
problems.  This is a well-written story and a little sad.

     "Four-Sided Triangle" by William F. Temple: This is a famous
story and was even the subject of a film.  Two scientists who have
developed a matter duplicator are both in love with the same woman,
but she loves only one.  You can work the rest of the story out for
yourself.  This is a reasonably good story, if predictable.

     "Star Bright" by Jack Williamson: The plot of this story is by
now something of a cliche.  A man is given a miraculous power and it
turns out to be more of a curse than a blessing.  It's the kind of
thing that showed up all the time on THE TWILIGHT ZONE.  There is
even a reference in the story to a similar story in the film THE MAN
WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES.  It is bland fantasy.

     "Misfit" by Robert Heinlein: This is reasonable space ranger
stuff, notable mostly for its optimism about the great adventure
that is space.  This story makes the point that someone who doesn't
fit in at home can still be a valuable man in space.  In this case,
an Earth misfit in trouble with the law turns out to be a human
computer.  Right.

     Well, they aren't all winners, but this book shows that a lot
of pulp science fiction was still worth reading.  Look up "The Day
Is Done" by Del Rey some time.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 May 85 00:00 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS>
Subject: More "Starlost" info

For those of you who may be interested in delving further into the
somewhat sordid history of _The Starlost_, the following may be of
use:

_Phoenix without Ashes_, by Edward Bryant and Harlan Ellison.
Bryant took Ellison's original plot script for _The Starlost_
(apparently very different than the version actually shot) and
turned it into a full-length novel.  Included is Ellison's 30-page
telling of how the powers-that-be scrod him and the show.  Note that
the original script was awarded "Most Outstanding Film/TV
Screenplay" by the Writers' Guild of America (Ellison's third such
award).  This may be out of print today; the edition I have is
Fawcett M3188, dated February 1975.  Worth digging up at your
favorite used-paperback store.

_The Starcrossed_, by Ben Bova.  A lightly-fictionalized retelling
of the whole mess, involving 3D television, Vitaform Process bodies,
pink perfumed smog, a hockey-star lead actor who speaks only
Neanderthal, The Mob, and panic flights to Ulan Bator.  Ron Gabriel,
iconoclast / romantic storywriter, nicely fills the shoes of The
Small but Mighty God of Thunder ("May Elcin strike you in the
kneecap!").  Pyramid A4105, dated 12/76.  I'm fairly sure this is
currently in print; I think I noticed a copy out of the corner of my
eye in A Change of Hobbit (Santa Monica CA) last week.  Definitely
worth a read for the laughs, even if you're not a _Starlost_ fan
[Ellison writes in _Phoenix..._, "Friends call me when they see _The
Starlost_ (which still has some small syndication in outlying
areas), and they tell me how much they like it.  I snarl and hang up
on them."].

------------------------------

From: ewok@ucbvax.ARPA (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: SF Bookstores in London
Date: 5 May 85 17:51:35 GMT

        I am looking for addresses of bookstores (especially those
which concentrate on sf/fantasy) in London. If you have a favourite
bookstore, please send its address to me....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 May 85 1059-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #154
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 5 May 85 00:38:33-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 10

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
seeking Trufandom.]
                                Chapter Ten
                     In which Jophan comes to the City.

     It was now obvious that the hucksters' settlement had been
merely the outskirts of the great city.  The towers and spires which
Jophan had seen that morning now loomed directly ahead, and the
green fields had completely disappeared behind a great wall of
hoardings.  Shortly these in turn gave place to a region of
barracks-like buildings, each backed by stretches of bare concrete
and separated from one another by barbed wire.

     As Jophan entered this district a great number of people came
running out of the buildings to welcome him, pressing gifts into his
hands, clapping him on the back and offering him hospitality.
Meanwhile, others shouted greetings from the windows of the
buildings and showered him with pieces of paper in such profusion
that Jophan could scarce see his way in front of him.  He caught one
of the pieces as it fell and saw that the message emblazoned across
it was the same as that which was being shouted by most of the
people around him.  "WELCOME TO TRUFANDOM," it proclaimed.  Jophan
turned it over and found that the other side consisted of an
advertisement for a club for fans, which was evidently what these
buildings were.  Curious, he turned his steps towards the nearest
one.  At once a huge howl of rage arose from the representatives of
other clubs, and they shouted at him and plucked at his garment in
an attempt to divert his footsteps.  However, reinforcements quickly
arrived from the club in whose direction he was proceeding and he
was hustled inside.

     There his new friends welcomed him effusively and asked him his
name.  "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way to
Trufandom to obtain the Enchanted Duplicator and produce the Perfect
Fanzine."

     They looked horrified.  "Do you mean," asked one of them, "that
you were actually going to attempt that journey *by* *yourself*?"

     "Yes," said Jophan diffidently.

     "But my poor fellow," said the other, "that is quite
impossible.  You must, absolutely must belong to a club before you
can ever think about such an undertaking.  Here we will train you
for the journey, outfit you with all the necessary equipment, and in
time send you out as part of a properly organized expedition.
*That* is the way to go about such things," he added proudly.

     "How long will that take?"  asked Jophan.

     "Training is going on this very moment in the exercise yard,"
said the other impressively.  "But first let me show you the
benefits our club has to offer you."

     He smiled kindly to Jophan and turned to speak to one of the
other club members.  Jophan could not hear what the latter said, but
he saw him shake his head and point to another member.  He in turn
pointed to yet another with a great deal of muttering and
whispering, and soon they were all arguing bitterly among
themselves.  Every now and then one of them would stamp angrily out
of the room, slamming the door behind him, but another always seemed
to come in to take his place.  This went on for a long time, and
they seemed to have forgotten all about Jophan.  He rose from his
seat, tiptoed quietly out of the other door of the room, and found
himself in the exercise yard.

     Marching up and down the yard was a line of several dozen
Neofen, under the supervision of a drill instructor.  When they came
to the barbed wire fence at one side the instructor would shout,
"About face," and they would turn round and march to the other side
of the yard, were the process was repeated.  Jophan watched for a
considerable time, but this seemed to form the sole activity.  At
length one of the Neofen fell out of line and walked tiredly over to
Jophan.

     "One gets a little tired of it at times," he said rather
shamefacedly.

     "I thought you were quite right," said Jophan.  "I never saw
anything so pointless in all my life."

     "Oh, I wouldn't say that," replied the Neofan defensively.
"You see, there's to be an election shortly, and then it'll be the
turn of one of *us* to give the orders.  Why, it might be *me*," he
added eagerly.

     "But how will all this help you get to Trufandom?"  asked
Jophan.

     "Trufandom?"  said the other, astonished.  "Why, *this* is
Trufandom!
...Isn't it?"

     "It is not," said Jophan firmly, and proceeded to impart to the
Neofan something of the glory of the vision he had experienced from
the touch of the wand called Fanac.

     The Neofan passed his hand dazedly across his forehead.
"Yes..."  he said, "I do remember something like that.  But I've
been here so long I'd quite forgotten it."

     "Leave all this marching up and down," urged Jophan.  "It will
never get you anywhere.  Come with me to Trufandom."

     "I'm not sure I'm strong enough yet for such a journey," said
the Neofan hesitantly.  "Maybe I had better let the club help me."

     "No," said Jophan.  "I am only a Neofan, but I know this: that
the journey to Trufandom is one which must be accomplished by a
Fan's unaided efforts.

     "But," pleaded the Neofan, "couldn't you wait until after this
election...or maybe the one after it?"

     "No," said Jophan firmly.  "I must be on my way."  He waited
for a moment to see if the Neofan would change his mind, and then
left him reluctantly.  He slipped back into the building, through
the room where the organizers were still arguing, and back into the
streets, still unnoticed.  Then, brushing aside the crowd of
well-meaning organizers and welcomers with a friendly but firm arm,
he continued on his was to the center of the city.

     The buildings now began to take on a more and more elegant
appearance, and became ever higher and more imposing.  The streets
became broader and more smoothly paved.  At each intersection the
vistas were more and more beautiful and awe-inspiring, until at last
he reached the center of the city.

     Jophan knew this was the center of the city for the simple
reason that his instinct told him that there could not be anything
more beautiful still in store.  He found himself in a broad,
gleaming thoroughfare, beautifully paved.  On either side there
towered shining marble skyscrapers, their pinnacles plunging into
the very heavens.  It was all so wonderful that Jophan could do
nothing but stand there motionless, breathless with admiration.
This, he thought to himself, must be Trufandom.  True, it was not as
the Fairy had led him to expect, but he could not imagine that
anything more wonderful could exist.

                          [To be continued.]

------------------------------

Date: Sun 5 May 85 00:39:11-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 11

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
in search of Trufandom.]
                           Chapter Eleven
          In which Jophan learns the Truth about the City.

     As he stood at the entrance to the great avenue, still
transfixed with awe, a dapper, bespectacled young man came up to
him.  He eyed Jophan's tattered garments somewhat askance, but spoke
to him civilly enough.

     "Good day," he said.  "Might I enquire your name?"

     "My name is Jophan," said Jophan humbly, "and I am on my way to
Trufandom..."

     "You need go no further," said the young man.  "Perhaps you
would like me to show you around the city.  My name is Dedwood," he
added proudly, "and I am one of the City Planners.  I am a Serious
Construction Engineer by profession."

     Taking Jophan's arm, he led him along the street, pointing out
one great building after another.  Before they had reached the end
of the avenue Jophan was, if possible, even more overcome with
admiration, but he began to feel out of place in all this elegance
with his dirty clothes and tarnished Shield.  As Dedwood was
pointing out yet another imposing building he took the opportunity
to give the Shield a surreptitious rub with his handkerchief.

     "This," Dedwood was saying, "is the Federation Building ---"

     He broke off in alarm as a strangled sound came from his
listener.  In wiping his Shield Jophan had caught a glimpse of the
reflection of the building on its surface, and he had been unable to
suppress a cry of astonishment.  Reflected in the Shield was not the
imposing edifice of the Federation Building, but a ramshackle
affair, in visible danger of falling into the street.  Seen in the
mirror of the Shield, the building was not even soundly constructed,
but disfigured by cracks and faulty workmanship.  Even so, Jophan
would have been half inclined to dismiss the reflection as the
result of a distortion on the Shield's surface, had not the thought
suddenly occurred to him that not once had he been allowed to see
inside one of the buildings.

     Before Dedwood could stop him, Jophan darted through the door
of the Federation Building.  As he had by now half-suspected, it was
not a building at all, but a mere facade.  Although it reached high
in the air, it was but a few inches thick and obviously unstable.
Even as Jophan watched a little gust of wind produced several
dangerous-looking cracks in the flimsy structure.  At the
splintering sound, two harassed Neofen appeared, pushing a tall
scaffolding before them on wheels.  Stopping close to the wall, they
clambered up and hastily filled the cracks with cement.  Then they
pushed the scaffolding along to the next danger point, working more
and more feverishly as the cracks seemed to grow in number more
rapidly than they could be repaired.

     Jophan tore his eyes away from this depressing sight, and went
outside again.  Dedwood was still standing on the sidewalk, but he
now had an almost guilty expression on his face.

     Jophan faced him accusingly.  "What is the idea of all this?"
he demanded brusquely, annoyed at having been taken in by such a
senseless deception.

     "Well, you see," said Dedwood awkwardly, "it's to impress the
Public.  They wouldn't be impressed by Trufandom, so some of us
thought we'd erect this city of Serious Constructivism to give them
a better idea of our importance."

     "But surely the Public never come into Fandom?"  protested
Jophan.

     "Well, no," admitted Dedwood, "but they sometimes send a
representative in, usually a Mr. Press."

     He seemed to be having difficulty meeting Jophan's gaze, and
the reflection from Jophan's Shield of Umor seemed to be hurting his
eyes, so that while he was talking he glanced sideways up and down
the street.

     Abruptly he broke off with a cry of excitement.  "Why, there he
is now!"  he exclaimed.  "This is a great day..."

     The rest of his words were lost as he ran helter-skelter down
the street to where a little man with a notebook had appeared as if
from nowhere, accompanied by another little man with an easel under
his arm.

     Jophan followed more slowly and found Dedwood already talking
volubly to the stranger, while the other little man set up his easel
and began making sketches.  At great length Dedwood expiated on the
glories of the City, on the Magnificent Work that was being
accomplished there, on the grandeur of the buildings, on the
intelligence and forethought of the inhabitants, on their sobriety
of deportment and the importance of their work to Humanity, on the
various functions and important duties they performed, and on the
contribution he himself made to these mighty achievements.  Jophan
noticed, however, that the little man was writing very little of all
this in his notebook, and as Dedwood drew to the close of his
impressive oration he sidled behind Mr.  Press and looked over his
shoulder.  The page was perfectly blank except for one cryptic
sentence which Jophan could not understand.  He only knew that it
bore no relationship whatever to what Dedwood had been saying.  It
read, simply, "Gosh-wow-boy-oh-boy!"  Puzzled, Jophan moved behind
the artist, who had already completed several sketches.  Jophan
noted that they were all recognizable caricatures of Dedwood, but
that for some reason the artist had in each case shown him as
wearing a peculiarly shaped headgear which incorporated a small
propeller.

     Completely baffled by these quite extraordinary phenomena,
Jophan withdrew and waited quietly until Dedwood had finished
talking.  Mr.  Press and his assistant thanked Dedwood effusively,
promised to give the Public a full and accurate report of all that
he had told them, and said goodbye.  Their shoulders were shaking as
they walked off, but Dedwood did not seem to notice.  Becoming once
more conscious of Jophan's existence, he turned to him with pride.
"There!"  he said smugly.  "I flatter myself that *this* time the
Public will learn the truth about us."

     He seemed so pleased with himself that Jophan did not have the
heart to tell him what Mr. Press had actually written in his
notebook.  Instead he merely thanked him for his courtesy and left
the center of the city with a last glance of contempt and pity for
the preposterous erections.

                          [To be continued.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 May 85 1012-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #155
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:

          Books - Heinlein & Hogan & King & Scarborough &
                  Wolfe (2 msgs) & Wyndham & 1985 Nebula Awards &
                  A Story Request,
          Films - Damnation Alley & The Sword and Sorcerer,
          Miscellaneous - Authors in Person & The Dead and SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: GREAT SF STORIES (1939)
Date: 6 May 85 14:58:47 GMT

>      "Lifeline" by Robert Heinlein: This is a good story, but it
> is merely a re-telling of an old idea.  The question it asks is,
> if we really could know the date of our death, would that be a
> good thing or a bad thing?  Of course, whenever the story is told,
> it turns out to cause untold misery to the person who finds out.
> It seems particularly inappropriate in science fiction, since much
> more in science fiction than in fantasy the reader is likely to
> ask, if a person has been given a death date 20 years off, what
> happens if you put him in fatal circumstances now?  Try dropping a
> piano on him.  What happens?  Still, it is not a bad treatment of
> the story.

It should be mentioned that this was Heinlein's first short story.
Like many of Heinlein's stories, at the time it was written, it was
NOT a "re-telling of an old idea" but rather the first time the idea
was brought into Science-Fiction.  Jerry can supply the date it was
written.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:37:53 -0200
To: tigqc356%cunyvm.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Genesis Machine

> I forget who wrote the letter I'm replying to.

I did.

> The Machine had an internal power source that would give it just
> enough "juice" to explode the capitals of the U.S. and Russia if
> outside power were to be cut.

No. According to the discussion near the end of the book, the
J-Bomb, if it feels its power is going to be cut off, will explode
only military installations, and ONLY in the USA. This would
certainly be of great benefit to the USSR (and, given enough time
and the stakes involved, they can probably manage to do it). Also,
this would mean that the USA would be able to cut off the power if
it first moves all its major military installations to new locations
(a difficult, costly undertaking, which would certainly take long
enough for the USSR to build a J-Bomb of its own).

        Eyal Mozes
BITNET:               eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:       eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                 ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF/Berni Wrightson
Date: 7 May 85 08:13:15 GMT

> From: "pugh jon%g.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> I just purchased a copy of Stephen King's book,
> _Cycle_of_the_Werewolf_.  This is a new edition of a book that
> appeared only in hardcover and it is beautiful!  Berni Wrightson
> did the illustrations in both color and b&w.  Truly one of the
> best illustrated books I have seen in years.
>
> If you read _National_Lampoon_ then you may have seen some of
> Berni's work.  He did a parody of the TV show _Bewitched_ in witch
> Sam and Endora were real witches, complete with human sacrifices
> and sex magic with demons.
>
> Berni has also done a lot of SF artwork, although his leanings are
> toward the horror realm.  I have a portfolio of his interpretation
> of Edgar Allan Poe's works that is quite stunning, especially
> _The_Cask_of_Howeveryouspellit_.

Actually, while I liked some of them, I was a tad disappointed by
the illos in CYCLE (the black & white ones are nice, but the color
ones are a bit too garish. If you want to see some *outstanding*
illustrations by Wrightson, pick up a copy of the edition of Mary
Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN from Dodd, Mead (and in 8-1/2X11 trade
paperback from Marvel Comics --- but it's *not* a comic book) that
he illustrated. The man continues to amaze me with his talent.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: spock!willard@topaz.arpa (Bill Brickman '88 )
Subject: Elizabeth Scarborough * SEMI-SPOILER *
Date: 5 May 85 02:42:02 GMT

   Well, thanx y'all ! I had to go and get all da info meself !
 I hope someone out there in net will read this and actually try one
of Liz's books. They are right along the line of the Xanth novels,
and both Piers Anthony and Anne McCaffrey recommended the book (not
to me of course) to the entire public. (It's on the front cover.) I
thought these books were intertaining and not so super deep. Not
that I don't like super deepness...  Oh well... it looks like I'll
have to write a ** SPOILER ** to get you interested in her books.
(For you in the audience who don't want a good book ** SPOILED **,
you better close your eyes now !)

                      ******  SPOILER  ******

             _T_h_e _H_a_r_e_m _o_f _A_m_a_n _A_k_b_a_r

   This book takes place in the Far East. In ancient days... of
magic and Sinbad and djinns... y'all know what I'm talking about. A
woman named Rasa (the narrator) is chosen by Aman Akbar to be his
wife. She is whisked away from her barbarian world (Europe
presumably) and placed in the estate of Aman Akbar (by the Djinn he
owns) She finds out through stealth and cunning (She is a Barbarian,
after all) that Aman has been wife collecting and now has three-
Rasa, Aster, and Amoilian. Then his mother plagues him to marry his
cousin who is in the "care" of our villian The Emir. He , being a
wife collector, decides that with the help of his djinn, he will
steal her away. In the process he gets turned into an ass, which
causes problems for his wives, who must turn him back into a husband
they can control with their womanish wiles. Their mother-in-law
comes with them, causing their lives to be filled with curses,
lectures, and boredom. Until of course they find out that Aman's
enemy, The (boo hiss) Emir now has the bottle of the djinn. This
causes more magicial problems, as you would think. Along the way,
they pick up a headcloth of a saint which allows them to speak to
animals (including their husband), a quest for a lemon (for the
disciple of that saint), and a magic carpet (What mid-east legend
would be without one ?). They have to go though shape-changers,
crocodiles, bitigers(two tigers in one), and a very angry King (of
age thirteen with 23 wives). They win out in the end, as in all her
books.

  The other of her books are all in a series (unless some of you can
find somemore of her works):

   Song of Sorcery - a hearth witch, a minstrel, and a unicorn go
                     on a search for the witch's half-sister in
                     a land of gypies, dragons, and iceworms.

   The Unicorn Creed - The hearthwitch Maggie, her minstrel and her
                       unicorn go on a quest for information as to
                       why the unicorns are all dispearring

   Bronwyn's Bane - The hearthwitch's half sister's daughter
                    goes on a quest to end the the curse put
                    on her at birth (to tell only lies)
                    and save a unmagiced land from death

   The Christening Quest - (Not yet out) Bronwyn's baby, who she
                           promised to some magic merchants to stop
                           her curse, is about to be sent to them
                           when Bronwyn decides she wants to keep
                           it. The quest is for the babe (I guess
                           ?).

Thanx for the attention,
Willard 'n' the rats

------------------------------

Subject: New Gene Wolfe books
Date: 07 May 85 10:26:04 EDT (Tue)
From: obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA

        I spoke briefly with Gene Wolfe at Boskone.  He said that he
has a contract for a series of historical novels.  They'll be set in
Greece, Rome, Ancient Egypt, etc.  He seemed quite excited about the
whole thing, remarking that the one he really couldn't wait to get
started on was the one set in Ancient Egypt.  As a student of
hieroglypics, I couldn't agree with him more.

        iw.i m rswt

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 1985 10:30:08-EDT
From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
Subject: Wolfe's next novel
To: Don Seeley

At Boskone I attended a panel discussion of writers discussing what
books they read.  Gene Wolfe said that he was currently reading
research, consisting of factual information about life during the
Roman Empire (and the things he mentioned dealt with the day to day
lives of Roman soldiers), for his next novel.

This reminds me of your comment about hearing writers speak in
person.  Maybe it was the panel setting and the adoring glow of
fans, but Wolfe - the others on the panel too, but especially Wolfe
- was perfectly charming; warm, humorous, and a marvelous
raconteur.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: TROUBLE WITH LICHEN
Date: 07 May 85 23:31:48 PDT (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>                   TROUBLE WITH LICHEN by John Wyndham
>                     A book review by Mark R. Leeper
>
>        I cannot claim that this is a particularly well-written
>novel, or that I believe the nature of the uproar caused, but the
>magnitude of the chaos is more than the reader expects, but
>probably less than would actually occur.  Reading it, I was
>thinking it was really lesser Wyndham, but thinking about it
>afterwards, that is still pretty good.
>                                           Mark R. Leeper

Would you !!!PLEASE!!! put spoiler warnings on reviews like this!!
You've told half the story in the review (well, half the
occurrences, anyway).  What you put in your review is obviously your
business, but it's not fair to people who haven't read the book to
expose so much of the book without warning them.

Whether or not one believes it would actually happen seems
irrelevant.  The business of science fiction is at least as much to
speculate as to predict.  Some would say science fiction does much
better when it speculates wildly.  And personally, it does not seem
to me in the least unlikely that people, and special-interest groups
particularly, would react this way.  Absurd behaviour is a special
province of human society.

As for the writing, if Wyndham doesn't appeal to you (and I see no
difference between the styles of TROUBLE WITH LICHEN, MIDWICH
CUCKOOS, DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, OUT OF THE DEEPS, CHOCKY, THE
CHYRSALIDS, etc. etc), by all means dig into Andre Norton.  But
you'll pardon me if I don't join you.

                                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 May 1985 11:31:23 EDT
From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Nebula Awards 1985

     For those who were wondering, here are the winners of the 1985
Nebula Awards, which were presented on 4 May at the annual SFWA
Nebula Banquet(s).

Best Novel:  "Neuromancer", William Gibson.
Best Novella:  "Press [Enter]", John Varley
Best Novellette:  "Blood Child", Octavia Butler
Best Short Story:  "Morning Child", Gardner Dozois

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Yet another story request
Date: 7 May 85 22:13:58 GMT

Since I have been searching for this book for some time without
success, and since everyone else uses this newsgroups for such
searches...

I think I read this book when I was around 12.  It is hard to
remember.  (I started reading SF at about 10, and never really read
any juveniles-- started on the hard stuff.)  It was, I seem to
remember, an ACE double.  I do not remember either the author or
title.  I eagerly grab any ACE double I can find to see if that is
it--but so far no luck.

The story concerns a space pilot in a war.  He is captured and
imprisoned on a far away planet in a fairly conventional cell.  His
captors have never had a human prisoner before.  He manages to drive
them fairly crazy with his wild sense of humor--for instance, he
convinces them he has an invisible double who plays tricks on them.
I remember his making a "radio" to talk to the double out of some
wire and a block of wood--then making sure the guards find it.
Finally they let him go just to get rid of him.

I remember the story as hilarious--but my sense of humor may have
changed in 25 years or so.

Does anyone else remember this--especially the author and/or title?

                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
AT&T Information Systems
11900 North Pecos
Westminster, Co. 80234
(303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: Zelazny movies?
Date: 7 May 85 09:17:49 GMT

> From: apollo!nazgul
> In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page
> noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and
> another has been sold to be made into a movie.  Does anyone know
> anything about either of these?
>                                        Brad Brilliant

The first is obviously DAMNATION ALLEY, which, if you haven't seen
it yet, isn't worth the effort of turning on the tv set. The second,
I believe is LORD OF LIGHT. I recall reading a few years back that
someone had purchased options or rights to film it, and had the
whelming idea of creating an amusement park based on the sets and
props and things from the film. Needless to say, the whole project
went down the tubes. Probably a good thing, too. I don't think I'd
trust anyone short of a Stanley Kubrick or Robert Altman to pull off
LOL (and I'm not sure about them two, either).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: cvl!liang@topaz.arpa (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: Any news on Alien II or Sword & Sorcerer?
Date: 8 May 85 00:35:51 GMT

> Two movies I particularly enjoyed were Alien and The Sword and the
> Sorcerer.  I heard that another Alien was in the works, but not
> much more.  As for the TSATS, sometime during the end credits it
> was mentioned that Talon would return in a new movie.
>
> Anyone else heard anything more?

I share your feelings about TSATS and thought the movie was rather
nice if a bit cliched.  Unfortunately, I've heard that the movie
wasn't well received in general and that plans for a sequel were
cancelled.  Too bad if true.

Eli Liang
University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep
CSNET: liang@cvl  UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Authors in-person
Date: 6 May 85 15:30:56 GMT

> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
> Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met
> two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be rather
> one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly.
> -steve

I've met Varley, and found him a thoroughly delightful man.  I
hadn't liked his work until I met him, but I couldn't stand liking
him so much and not liking his books, so I made myself read them
until I liked them.  The other thing about Varley that is so nice is
that he often comes complete with Anette (sp?) McKonnal (sp?), one
of the most delightful individuals it has ever been my pleasure to
meet.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 1985 17:58 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
Subject: The Dead and SF

How can one overlook the animation at the beginning of The Grateful
Dead Movie? It starts with an astronaut plunking a quarter into a
giant 3D space pinball machine. Very cosmic gameplay.

Maybe some money could be pried from some of NASA's lesser projects
to do a feasability study for the real thing.

Greg Goodknight <good@ACC.ARPA>
former Group Leader Engineer
Design and Development
Mattel Electronics

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 May 85 1106-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #156
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:

               Art - Cover Art,
               Books - Asimov & Brust & Dean & Dick &
                       MacAvoy & Story Answer (3 msgs),
               Films - Defcon 4 & Buckaroo Banzai &
                       The Man Who Could Work Miracles,
               Television - Star Trek,
               Miscellaneous - Author Recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jen%mit-nessus@mit-athena.ARPA (Jennifer A Hawthorne)
Date: 7 May 1985 1247-EDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Artwork on Covers

"Trumps of Doom", the newest Amber book, is now out in hard-cover with
some of the most awful cover artwork I've seen in a while.  It, too,
is part of a series like the first five (one story in several books)
and (MILD SPOILER) it ends on a terrible cliff-hanger.  Arrggh!
Zelazny is a sadist.
     Out of curiousity, SKZB, how does an author feel about the cover
artwork on his books?  I noticed on "Yendi" that Vlad has no mustache
and looks a lot older than twenty-one.  The artwork on the paperback
edition of "To Reign in Hell" looks nicely executed, but since I
haven't read it yet, I don't know if it is faithful to the content.
How about it?
                                        --Jennifer H.--- "Does the
artwork on a book EVER have anything to do with the
   content?"
                                        -common question at MITSFS

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 1985  13:30 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: pugh jon%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Asimov's plans?

> In _Edge_ the robots finished the ultra-subtle problem of ETs.
> They zapped time around so that there weren't any ETs, just
> humans.  After all, that is the safest way for humans to live.  I
> doubt any aliens could stand to live in the same universe as us,
> regardless of whether we could handle it.  I mean really, we don't
> even like each other.  So anyhow, the robots have been subtly
> controlling us, even to the point of playing with the fabric of
> space/time.
>
> What is missing?
>
> The book in which they do zap the old path of time, of course.

The events you are referring to are chronicled in "The End of
Eternity"

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 5 May 85 17:53:07 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:

> Yaweh was drivin by love, Abdiel by fear, Satan by indecision, and
> Beelzebub by loyalty.  If there was anyone in the entire book who
> really knew what was going on, it was Lilith, but she was too
> lacking in self-confidence to take the necessary steps.

Second-guessing the author is a losing proposition, I suppose, but
hallowed by long tradition in English classes.  So: I would have
said that Abdiel was driven (at the beginning) by ambition rather
than fear, and kept that motivation all the way until he was
discovered by all and sundry to have invented evil.  Although
basically a coward, I would say that his confrontation with Satan at
the Southern Keep was not the action of a fearful being.

Also, wouldn't you say that Mephistopheles (my favorite character, I
think) knew even more about what was going on than Lilith?

Let me reiterate my high praise for this book: I found the
characterizations and motivations very credible.  As long as it says
spoiler in the title, let me also say that the final confrontation
between Yaweh and Satan was incredibly impressive.  I'm a big fan of
the Regency Romance, where everybody wanders around under false
pretences, and when finally when everybody *really* knows what
everybody else meant by their actions they all make up and live
happily ever after.  However, to have the truth come out but still
not make any difference to the outcome requires a great deal of
artistry.  Further, there is an inevitability about the ending: I
was left with the feeling that even if Abdiel hadn't been doing the
dirt throughout, the natural course of events would have ended in a
similar result.

        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: jen%mit-nessus@mit-athena.ARPA (Jennifer A Hawthorne)
Date: 7 May 1985 1247-EDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country"

I just finished reading Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" the 
other night and felt impelled to comment on something that really 
ticked me off.  The book itself is a reasonably good read; it concerns
a group of kids who invent an imaginary land for themselves and then
manage to actually get to this place through the use of two magic
swords. BUT---

****FLAME WARNING**** IT NEVER ENDED!!  By this I mean that "The
Secret Country" seems to be the newest entry into the "One Story in
Several Books" class of series, right up there with Eddings'
Belgariad, The Lord of the Rings, Julian May's The Pleiocene Exile,
Zelazny's Amber books, and so on, and so on.  Thank you, SKZB, for
having the decency to finish your stories at the same time you
finished your books.
     I don't want to give anyone the impression that I hate this sort
of series; they're great if you are looking for an epic-sized read.
But I get VERY upset when (as with "The Secret Country") there is no
way to tell that the book is not complete aside from actually reading
the thing!  The publisher did not deign to put "Book One in the Secret
Country Series" or some such notice on the cover so that I would be
forewarned.  I reached the end of the book and couldn't believe my
eyes!  I felt cheated, and quite angry at the author, although I later
realized that this was unfair to Ms.  Dean as she probably had no say
in the matter.
     When I complained (loudly) about this to my unfortunate roommate,
she said that the publisher probably thought that putting a notice on
the cover would diminish the sales of the book, as some people refuse
to start a series until the entire work is finished.  She also
suggested that now that I had read the first part, I'd undoubtedly buy
the rest of the books when they came out, ensuring decent sales.  But
it occurred to me, later, that being advertised as part of a series
did not hurt the sales of Julian May's "The Adversary" or of Eddings'
"Enchanter's End Game".  In fact, they both made the national SF
best-seller lists. As for reading the rest of the series, I'm not sure
I will.  I don't like feeling that I've been tricked into something I
might not otherwise have done.
     Does anyone out there have similar feelings?

*****Flame Off*****
                                        --Jennifer H.---

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:43 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Philip K. Dick

In reply to: bunny!ehn\@topaz.arpa

Being somewhat of a collector of P.K.Dick myself, I have both the
books you mentioned. I would be willing to sell them if I can find
replacements. I'll start checking the local used bookstores, if you
want.

BTW, could you send or post a list of all Philip K. Dick printed
matter?

    Brett Slocum
    (ARPA: Slocum\@HI-MULTICS)
    (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 17:58 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: DAMIANO and successors
Cc: Alastair Milne <milne@UCI-ICSE.ARPA>

>Try them!

I second the motion.  MacAvoy's first book, _Tea with a Black
Dragon_ is also pretty good, although I agree that she's getting
better as she goes along.  Has anyone heard about any new stuff from
her?

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 May 85  9:50:07 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@bbncca.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Story request
To: ihnp4!drutx!slb@bbncca.ARPA

The story about the captured prisoner who confuses his alien captors
by pretending to have an invisible companion is "The Space Willies".
It was indeed part of an Ace double.  I think it was by Murray
Leinster, although Eric Frank Russell's name sticks in my head -- he
may have written the other half of the double.  I have a nagging
feeling that "The Space Willies" was also published under another
title, perhaps something like "The X Factor", and I'm not sure which
title was used for the Ace double.  As usual, I'm doing this from
memory, since I'm here in my office and the collection is at home.
                                                --Morris
                                                keesan@bbn-unix.ARPA
                                                ihnp4!bbncca!keesan

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Yet another story request
Date: 8 May 85 07:44:25 GMT

The book about the guy caught by the aliens who drives them crazy is
called "The Space Willies."  It is one of my favorite stories, by
Eric Frank Russell.  It's in an ACE double with "Six Worlds Yonder,"
also by Eric Frank Russell.
                                Muffy

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Yet another story request
Date: 14 May 85 05:31:57 GMT

Surely you are talking about THE SPACE WILLIES by Eric Frank Russell
which was in an Ace Double with SIX WORLDS YONDER by Russell.  I
didn't remember the story myself by a gave a call to my Eustace and
he remembered.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 7:50:14 EDT
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) <earl@BRL-VAT.ARPA>
Subject: Films: Defcon 4

I haven't been following the digest to closely for awhile, so there
may have been a discussion on Defcon 4 already.  To make it short, I
was very disappointed with the film.  The story development, to me,
was rather far fetched and loaded with cliche situations.  The R
rating comes from I presume, the violence (which appeared to me as
"gore for gore's sake") since I don't recall too much coarse
language nor "sexually explicit" scenes (at least they could've
shown us the female astronaut in her birthday suit...).  And to top
it off, the movie ended with "they all lived happily ever after"
(well, not all....).  When I walked out of the theater, I felt that
I had been had.  If you've seen the film, what did you think?

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard)
Subject: Buckaroo Banzai references?
Date: 7 May 85 17:23:37 GMT

   I saw Buckaroo Banzai about a month ago, and noticed that the
name of the company run by Red Lectroids was Yoyodyne.  Yoyodyne was
the name of a big corporation in Thomas Pynchon's
_The_Crying_of_Lot_49_.

   My question is, what other references have people seen in this
film?  I'm especially asking those who have seen it dozens of times.
The reference to Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds" broadcast doesn't
count; it's a plot device, not an off-the-cuff reference.

   --Mr. Blore, in-house detective, KAOS Radio, U. of Denver

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 13:46 EDT
From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: The Man Who Could Work Miracles
To: mtgzz!leeper@TOPAZ.ARPA (m.r.leeper)

> From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
> There is even a reference in the story to a similar story in the
>film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES.

Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the
short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named
H.G.  Wells.  The story is actually very short (about five pages),
and quite enjoyable.  I read it about eight years ago while leaning
against the library stacks.  I had previously seen the film, and it
is a good adaptation.
                                        barmar

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:41 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Local TV week - Star Trek, etc.

On Monday, a local (Minneapolis) TV station (KITN-29) had a Star
Trek Spectacular.

After the normally scheduled episode (City on the Edge of Forever by
Harlan Ellison, one of my fav. episodes) at 6PM, they had an hour
long show called Star Trek Memories hosted by L. Nimoy. He went over
the history of ST, his favorite episodes, Vulcan stuff (Mind-Meld,
salute, neck pinch, etc.), the ST movies (1 and 2, and a teaser
about the "upcoming" 3). Lots of clips of significant length.

Then they had two good episodes: Space Seed and Amok Time.  In all,
four hours of Star Trek.  I got my fill of TV for a week, and of
Star Trek.

This was the lead-off to the channels "Out of this World" week.
Schedule:

      Monday   : above
      Tuesday  : The Day the Earth Stood Still (great)
      Wednesday: The Time Machine               (good)
      Thursday : The Forbidden Planet     (also great)
      Friday   : Lost World               (don't know)

Now there is a TV station knows how to please SF fans.  They often
do theme weeks, and they often do SF in general.

Just thought I'd let all you folks in netland know that Minneapolis
has a high quality of life. Hee hee.

    Brett Slocum
    (ARPA: Slocum\@HI-MULTICS)
    (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)

------------------------------

Cc: hyper!brust@topaz.ARPA
Subject: Internecine recommendations
Date: 27 Mar 85 11:01:11 EST (Wed)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>

>>> At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will *
>>> Shetterly,
>> >> I must admit that the reviewers for the cover blurb (Brust and
>> ???), put me off a bit when it was revealed that they and the
>> author had cooperated in several workshops and publishing houses.
>
>Why does the relationship among the writers change this?  Are you
>aware of the extent to which authors know each other?  I'm not.
>Harlan Ellison recommends Heinlein's FRIDAY.  I wouldn't be at all
>surprised if they've met.  Does this invalidate the recommendation?

Is this really a question?  No, of course the relationship doesn't
invalidate your opinion, but it sure does put the recommendation in
a different light than if it had come from a -- shall we say -- less
interested party.

I'm *not* saying that your opinion and recommendation aren't both
honest and sincere (I'm sure they are).  Still, you should be able
to see that these types of relationships have, and should have, an
impact on how the recommendation is perceived.  (Just as if you
worked for Apple and gave an honest and sincere recommendation that
people buy Macintoshes ...  and certainly the same would hold true
regardless of the form of relationship -- employee, consultant,
dealer -- whatever.)

It's not that the information *is* wrong, misleading or dishonest.
It's just that the mere presence of this type of relationship
introduces *a potential* for self-interest to creep into the
opinion, which in turn increases the *possibility* that the
information is wrong, misleading or dishonest.

No, we can never know *all* the relationships between various
authors/ recommenders.  But we *would* like to know of any
relationships that are of a business or near-business nature.
Presumably, (at least some cynics would make this assumption)
relationships involving business would be more likely to invoke the
self-interest mechanism than would mere acquaintance.

And finally, I suspect that the author of the comment was mostly
criticizing the *publisher* (for failing to find someone else to
recommend the book), rather than impugning the veracity of your
recommendation.  The implication, of course, is that they couldn't
find a disinterested party to recommend it.

On the positive side, it's quite heartening to see that the
publisher *did* disclose the relationship.

<flame off>

Sorry about reacting so strongly.  It's just that I'm rather intense
on the subject of disclosing potential conflicts of interest.

                                       -- Burgess Allison
                                          <allison@mitre>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 May 85 1120-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #157
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Heinlein &
                        SF Recommendations (3 msgs) &
                        Story Answers (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Criticizing & Authors In-Person

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: TO REIGN IN HELL
Date: 7 May 85 10:41:27 GMT

I'm glad to see that there are other people who didn't care for
Brust's TO REIGN IN SPAIN-- I mean HELL. Well, I'm not *glad*,
really, I mean I want Steve's book to do well and all that cause
he's a good musician and he looks just like me (that handsome
devil!) and he keeps his wrist straight and he's just a hell of a
guy and all that. But it's just that I was one of a whole big bunch
of people that read the thing before publication, and I seemed to be
the lone wolf who wasn't exactly overwhelmed by it (or at least the
only one who was honest :-)). Not that there was anything about
REIGN to *dis*like. Just that there wasn't much that I *liked* about
it. I did enjoy his other books, though.
        I guess I'm glad that it isn't just me.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 7 May 85 21:26:56 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews.

Now, why is that?  It seems to me like you would want to respond to
bad reviews.  After all, what kind of response can you make to good
reviews.  "Thank you, thank you."  Mutual back-patting isn't that
interesting.

Obviously you don't want to get caught up in arguing about your
books too much -- you'd end up looking juvenile -- but I think a
fair amount of response to negative reviews is warranted.  The
author of a book has a very different understanding of the book than
a reader does, because much of what the author understands about the
book comes from internalized thoughts, false starts, musings, etc.,
that never show up in print.  Negative reviews often point out where
the author failed to completely communicate his understanding.
Writing to clear up these kinds of mis-communications can be helpful
for both the author and the reader.

> The real flaw in the book (I say its a flaw because very few
>people have picked it up, so I obviously didn't bring it off) was
>this: Abdial's actions didn't matter.  If there had been no Abdial,
>things would have proceeded in almost exactly the same way.

Prime example, I think.  I never considered this point until you
brought it up.  Thinking back upon the book, I guess I can see your
argument for this.  I don't agree with it.  For this to hold, the
forces involved should have been so overwhelming that the course of
events would be unchangable.  This simply isn't so in To Reign in
Hell.  There are several points in the book where a conversation
between Yaweh and Satan would have cleared the air.  Regardless of
whether or not you brought the point across in the book, it is
interesting to hear that this was the point you were trying to make.

Now, the question is: Did you start out with this as your "point" or
did it develop during the course of writing the story?

    Scott R. Turner
    ARPA:  srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
    UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt
    SPUDNET: ...russet$eye.srt

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: GREAT SF STORIES (1939)
Date: 14 May 85 04:19:30 GMT

>> "Lifeline" by Robert Heinlein
>It should be mentioned that this was Heinlein's first short story.

I didn't think that was all that relevant, but it certainly is true.

>Like many of Heinlein's stories, at the time it was written, it was
>NOT a "re-telling of an old idea" but rather the first time the
>idea was brought into Science-Fiction.

The two are not mutually exclusive.  It was both.  There have been
tales since the ancient Greeks of people who have been told that
they would be killed in such and such a battle.  In fact, the idea
of knowing the time of one's death need not even be fantasy.  In
this case, instead of a Delphic oracle telling a man of his own
death, a scientist uses a scientific means.  That is an engaging
concept in itself, but its dramatic impact, the effect it has on
people, has shown up before in fiction.  (Not that it is relevant to
this argument, but it also shows up in -- admittedly later --
fantasy films GOLDEN EARRINGS and KRULL and non-fantasy films IKIRU
and LAST HOLIDAY those these latter two are stretching the point a
little.)  In any case, I stand by what I said, it is a decent story
but essentially an old idea.

>Jerry can supply the date it was written.

It first appeared in magazine form in 1939 -- that is how it made it
into this anthology.
                           Mark Leeper
                           ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust: To Reign in Hell, et al
Date: 6 May 85 15:51:18 GMT

> On a slightly different topic, does anyone have any suggestions
> for good recent science fiction?  Recently all the new books have
> been fantasy, or at most science fantasy.  Even Niven's "Integral
> Trees" was pretty innocuous, although enjoyable.  Maybe I have to
> wait for that long promised sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye."
> Roy J. Mongiovi.

If you haven't read it, I STRONGLY recomment David Brin's STARTIDE
RISING; pure science fiction at its very best.  Similarly, Tim
Power's DINNER AT DIVIANT'S PALACE, and going back a ways, Gene
Wolf's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust: To Reign in Hell, et al
Date: 8 May 85 04:00:51 GMT

Add to recommendations of recent good SF:

David Brin's _Sundiver_;
Frederick Pohl's Heechee triology -- _Gateway_,
    _Beyond_the_Blue_Event_Horizon_, and
    _Heechee_Rendezvous_;
Dean Ing's _Systemic_Shock_ and _Single_Combat_;
John Ford's _The_Final_Reflection_

...sez who?  ...sez me!

-- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA
Subject: Suggested science fiction readings.
Date: 8 May 85 07:50:45 GMT

roy@gitpyr.UUCP (Roy J. Mongiovi) writes:
>On a slightly different topic, does anyone have any suggestions for
>good recent science fiction?

Ok, a couple of one-line shots, from (ever-failing) memory.

The best book I've read in a long while is Mary Gentle's (I *think*
I've got her last name right) "Golden Witchbreed." Obviously science
fiction, but it has a bit of a fantasy taste. Any one else out there
read it?

The new Tiptree novel "Brightness Falls from the Air" (or something
like that) is pretty good. Not great, but worth buying/reading.

Gibson's "Neuromancer" (which got a nebula - undeservedly, if you
ask me. Then again, "Press [Enter]" also got one, so...) is ditto.

Other than that, you're right - everybody seems to be doing fantasy.
Could someone make some suggestions for me?

        Thanx,
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 14:31:01 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Story Request

Jon Pugh asked about a story in which a crash-landing spaceship is
mistaken for a flying sperm cell (same size) by a female member of a
mechanical race.  The ship gets bred to mommy's egg (these people's
god listened to Lysenko, not Watson&Crick) and the pilot wakes up as
the souped-up captain of a VERY souped-up ship.

This story was in "Astounding", an anthology dedicated to (and
published shortly after the death of) John Campbell.  If I recall
correctly, the story was connected to a series of stories that had
appeared in Astounding.  It was written by Harry Harrison or Fred
Saberhagen or someone of that stature.  Who knows, maybe it's been
anthologized somewhere else by now.
                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 85 14:41:07 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Book Request (Stephen Grady)

There may be several books that have time flowing backwards in the
manner you describe (I have seen at least one other short story),
but the only book I've ever seen using the idea is
_Counter-Clock_World_ by Philip K.  Dick.

In contradiction to all the nice effects you described (order coming
from head, negative entropy, etc.), the books is actually rather
depressing.  Life (and human society) can be looked at as running
counter to entropy; so not only do people regress to infanthood as
they near death (this some- times happens in our world), but all of
mankind's inventions and creations are slowly disappearing.  The
task of libraries is to, at the proper time, destroy all copies of
books, works of art, patents . . .

I'm not claiming that this is your book, but it could be.

                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics
Date: 14 May 85 05:14:04 GMT

I know I am not the only person that this is aimed at, but I am
probably one.  So I will speak for myself only.

>After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to
>say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies.
>Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most
>comments about SF movies are neutral to negative.

I have been accused of the converse.

>Very few good, supporting statements are made.

That may be the period you have been looking at.  BRAINSTORM was a
good thoughtful science fiction film, but that was a while back.
The film of 1984 was pretty good, but it was a depressing
experience.  It is not the kind of film that gets a big following
(though BLADERUNNER seems to break this rule).

>Now you must remember that writing allows much more freedom of
>expression than does movie making.  I feel that given the
>restrictions of time, money, available actors (with talent) and
>politics (which eventually enter any large project) what we see is
>not too bad.

Good low-budget science fiction films are rare, but good filmmakers
do occasionally come up wit a good concept that doesn't need
effects.  UNEARTHLY STRANGER is certainly in the top 10% of science
fiction films, yet it is just actors in front of a camera.  No
special effects required.  In fairness, it also seems to have
disappeared.  Audiences want to see more than actors in front of a
camera for some reason.

>   My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not
>putting its heart and soul into SF.  No matter what they try, it
>gets torn apart by SF 'fans'.

And it makes big money at the box-office.  Look how many more big
budget science fiction films are made now than were made a decade
ago.  That does not argue that people who review these films
shouldn't be fair to them, but don't exaggerate the credence that
filmmakers give to the opinions of science fiction fans.  I call
them as I see them so I gave a +2 (on the -4 to +4 scale) to DUNE.
That is hardly tearing apart a film that was to say the least
flawed.  I think many of the people on the net, like me, will rate a
film high if it has something good in it, regardless if it also has
bad touches.

>Nothing is good enough, nothing is acceptable.

I think that science fiction fans are considerably less harsh on
science fiction films than are mainstream critics.  Be fair, a good
proportion of fantasy films get good reviews on the net.  LADYHAWKE
has gotten some real raves on the net.  I don't think that science
fiction films do worse than fantasy as a whole, but it is harder to
discuss if the curse makes sense in LADYHAWKE than it does to
discuss the ecology of SILENT RUNNING.

>Well I enjoy seeing a new SF movie,

So do I.  Perhaps even a bit more than you do.

>if it is a serious attempt to do well, even if it falls short.  We
>see *so* little of it.  WIZARDS was enjoyable, LotR was
>entertaining, and 2010 was far better than watching the The Love
>Boat.

I agree on two out of three, and did so in my original reviews.  (I
find a little hypocrisy in the story of WIZARDS.)

>  I'm not saying films shouldn't be criticized.  If they weren't
>nothing would improve.  But the impression from this digest is,
>"Nothing is good enough for us.  You do your best and we'll pick it
>to death somehow."

That is not my observation.

>Many of the criticisms I've seen are really ridiculous.  If I was a
>movie producer and read this digest, I wouldn't even attempt SF.

Oh yes you would!  You would count the number of people commenting
on the films and multiply by $4.50.  I don't see anyone on the net
saying that this or that film has soured them on going to see
science fiction films.

>I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a T-shirt, and be assured to
>make money without anyone noticing the plot (or lack of).

Very seriously, I read Variety and that sort of film does not hit
the top of the charts the way a science fiction film does.  Of
course, films like POLICE ACADEMY II do well too, and require a lot
less thought, but they require a funny script, and that is a real
gamble too.  PA-II and LADYHAWKE are currently at the top of the
charts.  The latter is a well-made fantasy film and it is being paid
off accordingly.

>  I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the
>clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the
>creative and original ideas, the novel approaches.

I think I try to, but it is good advice, nonetheless.

>Don't be in such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon of critics that
>recognition is forgotten.  Support for what the industry does right
>may create more progress and generate more creative ideas than
>continuous, boring and tiresome criticisms.

Most of who I consider the better critics on the net have a fair
share of positive reviews and do try to write the kind of review you
want.  Peter Reiher is my personal choice for the best of us and he
certainly does.  (But then he says so much in a film to talk about,
some of it would have to be good.)

I don't think you are entirely wrong, but I don't think you are
entirely right either.
                           Mark Leeper
                           ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 8 May 1985, 22:53-EDT
From: James M. Turner <jmturn at LMI-CAPRICORN>
Subject: Re: Authors in-person

> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
> Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met
> two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be rather
> one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly.  -steve

It depends very much on which authors you talk to. The interesting
thing about SF is the accessibility of the authors, as compared to
mainstream fiction, or even other specialized genres. Thus, you tend
to get more of both, friendly and [colorful descriptive term]
authors. In my experience, I have rarely found an author who is
truely unbearable (although they do exist), and lots of writers who
will go way out of their way to be nice to you. As a rule, the
'bigger' authors (better selling) do tend to be more protective of
their privacy and shy away from the fans more, but lots of them
don't. McCaffrey has always been very accessable to her fans (when
she's on the right side of the ocean), as have Brunner, Wolfe,
Niven, Vinge, and a long time SF-LOVER: Forward.

One thing to remember is that if you try to talk to them about
something they get asked 1E6 times a day, you're going to get a
canned answer. If every fan within 3000 miles has asked the author a
given question, it's going to be hard for you to get a fresh answer.
If you talk to them about something fresh, you can get some really
good conversations.
                                        James
ARPA: JMTURN@MIT-MC
UUCP: ...physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 85 1042-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #158
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:

         Art - Art on Book Covers,
         Books - Adams & Benford & Dean & Farmer (2 msgs) &
                 Hogan & A Story Request Answered &
                 Another Story Search,
         Films - Zelazny Movies (2 msgs) & Star Trek IV,
         Miscellaneous - Meeting Authors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 May 85 21:53 CDT
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Art on Covers

The three Barbara Hambly books, The Time of the Dark, The Walls of
Air, and the Armies of Daylight, all have covers by David Mattingly.
All the covers are DIRECTLY and CLEARLY related to scenes in the
corresponding books (and usually scenes quite near the beginning of
the books).  I have wanted to buy the original cover art for the
first book, but originally Mattingly said that he was holding onto
the set for his personal portfolio.  I eventually told an art deal
mutual friend that I would be willing to buy all three.  He told
Mattingly, but he still wanted to keep them for his folio.  Later I
found out had sold all three, and forgotten that he had had another
offer.  *Sigh* At least it was cheaper not to have them.

David S.  Cargo (Cargo@HI-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: 09-May-1985 1139
From: covert%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Covert)
Subject: HHTttG book four available in Europe as...
From: HAN01::FUECHTJOHANN

The fourth book of the Hitch Hiker's Guide trilogy is available as
paperback in this part of the planet :

        Douglas Adams "So long and Thank you for all the Fish"
        PAN Books ISBN 0-330-28700-1, in the U.K. 1.95 Pounds

Heinrich Fuechtjohann, DEC SWS Hannover FR Germany,
"The Hangover Branch near the East German Border"

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 85 15:12:25 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Gregory Benford novels

>From: sampath@topdoc.DEC (Superman 3.2  under field test)
>Can some one post/email brief reviews of Gregory Benford novels ?

As luck would have it, I was ill this past weekend, and had a
wonderful chance to re-read Gregory Benford's /In the Ocean of
Night/.  I first read this about five or six years ago, and was
strongly impressed by Benford's writitng style.  Today, my
impression is the same: excellent.

/In the Ocean of Night/ is set in the near future, and involves
humankind's first contacts with alien intelligence.  As science
fiction, this book is very believable.  As a novel, this book is a
work of art.  While I was slightly annoyed at the way Benford chose
to end this book, I think that has to do mostly with the way I like
to see a book end.  Anyway, the book is a joy to read.  Benford has
a fantastic appreciation of what captures and binds a reader to a
story.  He freely switches from prose to verse in his writing, with
no apology but with great effect.  Benford's attention to minutae
brings his characters into sharp focus and fills their lives with a
richness that I find enviable.  The flow of the story is fast and
full.  I was surprised when I reached the halfway point and found
more book, for I had already read a good novel.  As a Pasadena
resident, I was tickled a few times by Benford's description of
Pasadena in the 2010s.  I hope the smog doesn't really get that bad.

/In the Ocean of Night/ is a good read.  I recommend it highly.

-- Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country"
Date: 8 May 85 17:40:51 GMT

> From: jen%mit-nessus@mit-athena.ARPA (Jennifer A Hawthorne)
>
> I just finished reading Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" the
> other night and felt impelled to comment on something that really
> ticked me off.  The book itself is a reasonably good read; it
> concerns a group of kids who invent an imaginary land for
> themselves and then manage to actually get to this place through
> the use of two magic swords. BUT---
>
> ****FLAME WARNING****
> IT NEVER ENDED!!
>
> The publisher did not deign to put "Book One in the Secret Country
> Series" or angry at the author, although I later realized that
> this was unfair to Ms. Dean as she probably had no say in the
> matter.

You are correct.  I'm pleased that, at least, you aren't blaming the
author.  What happened in this case is that she wrote a book that
was too long for a first novel, so it had to be split.  I agree, and
I'm sure Ms. Dean agrees that the reader should have been warned.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 May 1985 08:09:25-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Riverworld (* SPOILER *)

                      *** SPOILER WARNING ***

        I have just finished the Riverworld series (better late than
never), and have a VERY large question about the ending.  Once
Burton, X, Alice, Frigate, et. al. save the life of the computer and
convince it to start doing resurrections again, et. al. and Farmer
seem to have forgotten one thing - half (?) the Grailstones along
the River DON'T WORK!

        Now, I suppose you could say that they'll get around to
fixing them (ah, but who is they?), but in the meantime the 17
Billion or so people who are still alive are going to figure out
what's going on and probably start killing the resurecties (?)
before they can even wake up.

        Does anyone know if Farmer takes care of this anywhere?  If
so, where?  Is Riverworld and Other Stories worth reading?  Arghh!!
I'm not usualy a detail picker, but that one was just too
obvious/ridiculous.

Brendan E. Boelke

p.s. If I missed anything that explains this (I finished the book at
2 a.m) my humble apologies - but I don't think I did.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 May 1985 06:50:49-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Riverworld

        Ahem.  The previous message I sent concerning the Riverworld
series was sent as soon after finishing the series as was possible.
I have now had over 24 hours to reflect on the books.  [Asbestos on]
Yechh.  My recommendation to anyone thinking of reading this series
is to read the first book and the last chapter of the third book and
skip all drivel 'tween.

                        *** Mild Spoiler ***

        Was there really any purpose to entire chapters being
devoted to Burton talking to himself or Clemens having a
conversation (?) with Twain?  Was this supposedly 'character
development'?  The only truly likable character in whole series was
Joe, and he gets bumped off (again) just when it was getting
interesting!
        The battle between Rex and Not For Hire was ridiculous,
although I thought the dogfight was well done until the finale (All
four in a row?!).
        Is this really considered a 'classic'.  Maybe I wasn't
getting SFL when it suggested NOT reading this series.
        Arghhhh!  I read all that junk in the middle for one good
chapter!  Oh well, read and learn.

Brendan E. Boelke

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Thu, 9 May 85 20:53:42 -0200
To: "pugh, jon%c.mfenet"@lll-mfe.arpa
Subject: Re: More on Hogan and SF in general ...

> So, what does it matter if Hogan gets a bit caught up in his
> theory of time travel?  He is doing what he enjoys, which is
> making increadible ideas sound plausible.  If the reader has to
> sit there and disbelive, then it makes me wonder why the person is
> reading fiction.  After all, isn't this supposed to be fun?

Creating a theory based on genuine science, which is both exciting
and plausible, is a very demanding task. Hogan is the only writer I
know who consistently achieves this in every book of his that I've
read (which is all except the Giants' Trilogy). Now when a writer
achieves this, the readers can add a lot to their enjoyment of his
book if they think seriously about the theory, evaluate its
plausibility, and note any flaws or inconsistencies. If you get
angry whenever anyone does that, you're missing most of the value
that hard-core SF can give you.

By the way, I highly recommend the anthology "Where do We Go From
Here?", edited by Isaac Asimov. It contains short SF stories, of
varying quality, but each with some hard-code element, and each
followed by a postscript by Asimov with specific suggestions for
this sort of thinking.

> Wouldn't you be willing, given a genesis machine (Love that wave
> theory of matter!), to try and save this planet from the fanatic
> little loonies that overrun it's surface?  I would.
> Unfortunately, there is no super-being that has morals harder than
> adamantium, no genesis machine, and no time travel.  So does it
> matter that Hogan has a simplistic view of politics?  His emphasis
> was that science can be used for good, given the motivation behind
> it is good.

There's a name for someone who enforces on others, by force or
threats, his idea of "good". The name is: dictator.

I'm not sure that Hogan seriously believes that "message" you're
talking about, but there certainly exist scientists who do. If you
want historical examples, look at the German scientists who
cooperated with the Nazis, or at the American scientists who gave
the secrets of the Atom Bomb to the Russians.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 May 85 14:58:41-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #151

> to at least a third of infinity!)  On the planet are giant
> creatures engaged in the common creature pasttime, sex.  However,
> our hero, and his ship, are about the size of a single sperm cell.
> Now, evolution takes a wild turn with Mom guarding her egg by
> shooting down every sperm she can.  She mistakes our hero for a
> sperm but he manages to avoid being hit by using his computer.
> Nevertheless, he hurtles into the egg where he is merged into a
> new critter with the ship built in.  And that's all I remember.

I can't remember the name of the story; it's the sequel to
_The_Spectre_General_ by Schmidt.  Something suggests that it was in
an Amazing or Analog or something like that memorial edition.
Beware on rereading -- it's a shaggy-dog story.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 May 85 15:49 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Story search:  living the same day over and over...

Another story along these lines (probably not the one being asked
about, but you never know) is the short novel "Time Trap", by Keith
Laumer.  Small communities from various times were yanked out of
normal spacetime and locked into 5(??)-dimensional hyperspheres.  If
you walked a mile or so in any direction, you came back to your
starting point, and each day you were physically restored to your
form as of the time that you were originally locked into the trap
(with your memories of the intervening time intact, however).
Rather tongue-in-cheek; features an alien who closely resembles an
ambulatory giant rutabega.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Zelazny movies?
Date: 8 May 85 17:25:27 GMT

> This is being posted for a friend of mine who is not on the net.
> Please reply by mail to me.  Although I dump this group to
> hard-copy, I may not actually read it for several months, given my
> current lack of time, and I think he would like a response a
> little sooner than that.
>
> In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page
> noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and
> another has been sold to be made into a movie.  Does anyone know
> anything about either of these?
>
>                                         Brad Brilliant

Sorry.  My "reply" function doesn't work very well, I'm too lazy to
track down the path, and this might be of general interest anyway.
Resiliant excrement. :=)

The one that has been into a movie was, and has been mentioned
already, DAMNATION ALLEY.  The leads in this one COULD have done a
fine job if it had been left alone, but they had to take the "hero"
of the novel (the last remaining Hell's Angel, for God's sake!) and
turn him into a...never mind.  I can't talk about it.

The one that might become a movie is LORD OF LIGHT.  There is a
strange and wonderful tale about why it hasn't been made yet
(involving such things as First Amusement Park Rights), but it is
now being worked on by some serious people, and might actually
happen.

I have some ideas on how it SHOULD be done myself, but there is no
way anyone could afford to do these things, and no way I could
convince anyone to in any case.  But it might, really, be happening.
We'll just have to wait and see.

                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@topaz.arpa (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: Re: Zelazney movie (Damnation Alley)
Date: 8 May 85 15:16:07 GMT

Watch the beginning of Damnation Alley and then watch War Games.
Identical!!!  And quite scary to see two very different films start
World War III the same way (sorta)!

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, Univ. of Toronto
USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!utcsri!uturing!perelgut
CSNET:  perelgut@Toronto

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK IV
Date: 9 May 85 02:05:57 GMT

It seems that the plot to Star Trek IV: The Search For Enterprise is
as follows: (This information is from a RELIABLE source)

        The USS Enterprise having been regenerated in the atmosphere
of the Genesis planet,and feeling very well after the whole
experience,heads for the planet Vulcan.The Enterprise is being
controlled by a mysterious Energy force,never encountered before.
        The crew,all having been on the Genesis planet,lose all of
their wrinkles and feel young and beautiful again,and ready to take
on another five year voyage.Captain Kirk doesn't lose all of his
wrinkles (due to there being too many of them.),but is cleared of
all charges and declared a hero.
        The crew all beam up to the Enterprise,exchange a few
cliches,and head towards a black hole,that just happens to be lying
around nearby in space) at warp factor 10.Due to the immense gravity
of the black hole they go back in time to just before the Enterprise
buys it over Genesis.Because there are now two Enterprises,the
Klingon Bird Of Prey is blown out of existence.Kirk's son David
does not die,so Kirk misses his chance to swear and act emotional.
        There are now two Enterprises left and two crews,so both
crews enter the transporter at the same time and are joined together
as one.Then they all return to Earth with two Enterprises,Star Fleet
forgives them all (one reason being that they now have two
Enterprises to sell for scrap instead of one), and Kirk is declared
a Hero (again).
        (The crew went on to make guest appearances in the new
series of T.J.Hooker).

        (TO BE OR NOT TO BE THAT IS ILLOGICAL CAPTAIN...SPOCK).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 May 85 01:36:49 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: re 'wild authors I have known'

(Figuratively wiping the omelette off my face...)

Apologies for being so whiny and annoying.  Lisa Chabot is of course
right, and my only excuse is that I was peeved that I had spent the
time to read Robinson's dissertation and then had come up with
nothing to reward the effort, and for some reason I felt especially
cranky several nights ago and...  So I blew it.

Hey, I love my Mom, and I'd die without my apple pie,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

PS -- What's the best way to get on a safari to bag some 'wild
authors'?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 85 1116-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #159
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:

        Art - Book Covers,
        Books - Asimov & Cook & Dean & Heinlein & Zelazny &
                Story Requests Answered (2 msgs) &
                Hugos (2 msgs),
        Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Attack of the Killer Tomatoes,
        Television - Starlost (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country"
Date: 8 May 85 17:40:51 GMT

>      Out of curiousity, SKZB, how does an author feel about the
> cover artwork on his books?  I noticed on "Yendi" that Vlad has no
> mustache and looks a lot older than twenty-one.  The artwork on
> the paperback edition of "To Reign in Hell" looks nicely executed,
> but since I haven't read it yet, I don't know if it is faithful to
> the content.  How about it?
>
>                                       --Jennifer H.---

The first purpose of cover art is to sell the book.  If, in so
doing, it can make a statement as to what the book is about, so much
the better.  If it can remain faithful to the content of the book,
that is more than anyone can reasonably expect.

I feel very fortunate in the Vlad books.  The covers look good, and
artist Steve Hickman captured the feel of the books very well, even
though neither character (Vlad or Loish) looks as I envision him.
So what?  He is, quite literally, an artist.  He strains reality
through his own perceptions in just the way I strained it through
mine.  We are bound to have different filter because we are
different individuals.  When I see an artists rendition of a
character or scene from a story, it never looks the way I envisioned
it.  So what?  That is a bogus method of judgeing a piece of art.
There is a thing called "feel" or "spirit" that transcends physical
description, and if the artist captures that, my hat is off to him.
If he does in on a book cover, and STILL manages to make the cover
attractive enough to sell (as Steve did), I am delighted.

The painting for Hell was fine.  The trouble was the title.  In the
first place, the lettering is atrocious.  In the second, I should
have called the book DRAGONRIDERS OF HEAVEN.  Then the cover would
have been perfect.  This'll teach me to put a dragon in my books!

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 03:20:34-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Asimov's plans

> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA        (Jon Pugh)
>
> I read _Foundation's Edge_ and _The Robots of Dawn_ and I would
> like to do some predictions of what I think is to come from Dr A.
>
> [speculations excised]
>
> I think Issac has his next project going. We'll see. If he
> doesn't, perhaps we can persuade him.  Send those cards and
> letters.

You may well be interested in the following information, which comes
from the April SF CHRONICLE:

"Isaac Asimov delivered ROBOTS TOWARD EMPIRE, a 140,000 word
manuscript, to Doubleday on January 7th. The book, which takes place
200 years after ROBOTS OF DAWN is both a sequel and at the same time
ties in to the Foundation series. It will be published in hardcover
in September....
        Asimov told SFC he has contracted with Doubleday for two
more Foundation novels. Manuscripts are due to Doubleday in December
1985, and December 1986. The first will be a sequel to FOUNDATION'S
EDGE; the second will be a prequel to the series, joining hari
Seldon in middle age."

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 May 85 00:32:50-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: ...good science fition? [recommendation]

If you're looking for good adventure/hard science fiction (well not
THAT hard; it's not in Dr. Forward's technology class, for
instance), try Glen Cook's Passage at Arms.  It's set in his
"Starfishers" trilogy universe, but has no real connection with
those 3 books (on a side note: if you noticed that the 3
"Starfishers" books seemed a bit choppy, it's because they were
written to be published as either 1 book or 2, and the publisher
insisted on breaking them up into 3!).

Glen Cook also has A Matter of Time out now; a good combination of
contemporary police procedure/mystery and time travel.  This book is
also well worth reading.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC
Subject: Re: Pamela C. Dean's \"The Secret Country\"
Date: 9 May 85 20:01:11 GMT

Er, I have a feeling that when _The_Secret_Country_ was printed, the
details about the sequel hadn't been hashed out.  Since this is a
first novel, it's possible a publisher would be VERY hesitant about
admitting/committing to further novels.

Last time I asked, my source said probably January.

I know people who won't buy the first book in a series unless all
the books are available.  This is so STUPID!!  If the first book
doesn't sell, who says there's going to be any more, especially if
it's a first novel.  And, by the time the sequel is out, the first
book is almost definitely out of print--*sooo* much for collecting
the whole series.

Okay, _Chanur's_Venture_ is even worse of a cliff-hanger, and it's
not announced either (Spike at Science Fantasy Bookstore had the
courtesy to warn me).  At least we know the characters are ALIVE and
well in _The_Secret_Country_.  Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_ ends
FALLING OFF A CLIFF (none of this measly hanging business), and, no,
there's no sequel.  Hell, there's no sequel to _Gone_with_the_Wind_,
really.

I've read uncountable ( == >4 ) books in series that had no
indication that they had prequels or sequels; first publications of
the first book in a series often have this problem.  I've read
serials that the magazine goes out of business before the next
month.

Life is risky.

L S Chabot
decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: ihu1m!johnnyr@topaz.arpa (John R. Rosenberg)
Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY
Date: 10 May 85 13:03:42 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:

>Yes, I remember that plot flaw as well.  Unfortunately, this
>screen is too small to hold it.
>               -- SKZB

Just for those of us who read Friday a while ago and aren't too
clear on the details, could someone please explain the fatal flaw in
the plot?

Thanks.
John Rosenberg  AT&T-NS
ihnp4!ihu1m!johnnyr

------------------------------

Date: Sat 11 May 85 13:00:09-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Trumps of Doom

It isn't QUITE a cliffhanger; rather it just isn't a successful
climax.

I can see that there is some potential for criticizing the book on
various grounds, but as I am irrational with respect to Amber,
please preface your criticisms with a subject header that indicates
same so I don't have to read them....

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch)
Subject: Re: Yet another story request
Date: 16 May 85 14:40:46 GMT

The book title that Sue Brezden is looking for is "Next of Kin" by
Eric Frank Russell. Another one of his that I found very
entertaining was "Wasp". Set against the same background of
technologically advanced Earth against less advanced but numerically
superior Sirians ( spot the theme!)  it is the tale of a reluctant
secret agent dropped on a planet behind enemy lines with orders to
create as much chaos as possible. Worth looking at if you have the
time, but not a great work of literature.
                                              Chris Welch
                                              Cranfield Institute
                                              U.K.
                                              csw@ukc.uucp

------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 May 85 18:15:27-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Time Runs Uphill

From Mr Grady's description in his YABT post, it seems to me that
the story in question is

        Brian Aldiss : Cryptozoic

serialised in New Worlds lo these many years
ago.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!jeanne@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Hugo Award Nominations
Date: 8 May 85 19:28:45 GMT

>Could someone enlighten me as to the prerequisites a novel needs to
>be eligible for a Hugo? Copyright date? Publication date? In which
>country?

It's based on calendar year publication.  Books that get published
in December and January (and never seem to come out when the
copyright says) are a problem that I've never quite figured out.  My
usual course of action is to use the Recommended List in Locus as a
guide to what's eligible.

I don't think country makes a difference, but since most people who
vote are American, books published in the States obviously have an
(overwhelming) advantage.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: Hugo Award nominations
Date: 11 May 85 11:28:49 GMT

I missed the original posting, but...

> From: ucla-cs!jeanne
>
>> Could someone enlighten me as to the prerequisites a novel needs
>> to be eligible for a Hugo? Copyright date? Publication date? In
>> which country?
>
> It's based on calendar year publication.  Books that get published
> in December and January (and never seem to come out when the
> copyright says) are a problem that I've never quite figured out.
> My usual course of action is to use the Recommended List in Locus
> as a guide to what's eligible.

Partially right. Eligibility is based on the stated publication date
on the book or magazine. For this year's awards, short stories in
magazines are eligible only if the cover date is 1984, regardless of
when it comes out. Novels that are serialized in magazines are only
eligible for the year that the last issue containing the serial is
dated.
        For books, again, the stated publication date is what
counts.  Remember, regardless of when a book is actually published,
copyright date only reflects when the book was copyrighted, not
published. Of course, books are usually issued a month before the
stated publication date, but that's something else again.

> I don't think country makes a difference, but since most people
> who vote are American, books published in the States obviously
> have an (overwhelming) advantage.

Nominees are eligible on their first publication *in English*. A
worthy story may have been published in, say, France, thirty years
ago, but if it was published in English for the first time in 1984,
it would be eligible for this year's awards. Books first published
in England *can* end up getting screwed if they aren't published in
the US until the next year, but this hasn't happened enough to make
that much difference.  Besides, I believe there is a loophole in the
eligibility rules that allows an author of a book published only in
England in a given year to withdraw eligibilty for that novel until
the year it appears in the US. I know that this has applied to
limited edition works. For example, Larry Niven's RINGWORLD
ENGINEERS came out in limited edition from Phantasia Press in
December 1979, but Niven withdrew it in favor of its trade
publication in 1980.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 85 01:47:45 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai References

udenva!showard@topaz.arpa writes:
> I saw Buckaroo Banzai about a month ago, and noticed that the name
> of the company run by Red Lectroids was Yoyodyne. Yoyodyne was the
> name of a big corporation in Thomas Pynchon's _The_Crying_of_Lot_
> _49_.

Yoyodyne was first mentioned in _V_ (Pynchon's first book; _Lot_49_
was his second).  In the book(s), it wasn't run by aliens; it was a
small toy company run by one Bloody Chiclitz until the 1940s, at
which time "the children of America conceived . . . a simultaneous
and psychopathic craving for simple gyroscopes . . . Chiclitz was
well on the way to cornering the toy gyroscope market when along
came a group of school kids on tour to point out that these toys
worked on the same principle as a gyrocompass."  Chiclitz goes into
business making gyros for the government, and the company blossoms
into a full-scale Defense Contractor. "Dyne, one engineer had told
him, was a unit of force.  So to symbolize the humble beginnings of
the Chiclitz empire and to get the idea of force, free enterprise,
engineering skill and rugged individualism in there too, Chiclitz
christened the company Yoyodyne."

The Nova Police, which are mentioned in the BB novel but not, I
think, in the film (they were the Good Guys), are also named after
an organization in a Pynchon novel (Gravity's Rainbow, I believe. I
heard this in the Digest over the summer). Incidentally, I began
reading Pynchon (well, _V_) because of the glowing praise in these
very pages.

I don't know of any other references, sorry.  (Unless the conical
"aliens" in the Lectroids' hangout really are references; see an
earlier message of mine.)
                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]

PS: Read the novel! It's by Earl Mac Rauch, and it reads like an
    old Tom Swift book.

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 04:05:13-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATOES

> From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa
> As I understand it there are TWO "Attack of the Killer Tomatos"
> movies; one made in the fifties which was more or less serious (so
> I hear--I've never seen it), and one made during the seventies
> which was definitely parody.  Probably the one being nominated was
> the older one.

What you understand is utter hogwash. There is only *one* AotKT, and
it is definitely a parody. There is a scene in it in which a
Japanese scientist talks, with a bland American voice on the
soundtrack and the lip-sync totally off. I can't believe that anyone
could see this and think that the movie was trying to be serious.

On the other hand, despite that fact that it is a parody, AotKT is a
very poorly-made film, and probably deserves to be put on a bad-film
list. It's still a scream to watch though.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Starlost reruns
Date: 8 May 85 16:38:04 GMT

I have seen the entire putrid series chopped up into a series of
movies and run as "Science Fiction Week" on the local UHF channel.
I hope the UHF channel didn't dupe anyone into thinking THAT is
science fiction!
                                Lord Kahless

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 May 1985 15:53:30-PDT
From: kevin%bartok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Re:  ``The Starlost''

For all of the dirty details, see Harlan Ellison's ``Somehow, I
don't think we're in Kansas, Toto'' which originally appeared as the
introduction to Edward Bryant's novelization of Ellison's screenplay
for ``Phoenix Without Ashes.''  (It has been collected in Ellison's
``Stalking the Nightmare.'')  Ellison's original screenplay won the
1974 Writer's guild of America Award for Most Outstanding Film/TV
Screenplay.  It bears no resemblance to anything which ever appeared
on TV under the name ``The Starlost,'' a fact which Ellison very
bitterly (and rightly, it appears to me) points out.  I thoroughly
enjoyed Bryant's novelization and highly recommend it.

Be seeing you!

        Kevin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 May 85 1151-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #160
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 160

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Dick & Heinlein (3 msgs),
                 Films - The Dungeon Master (4 msgs),
                 Television - V

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 04:52:05-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: Philip K. Dick

> From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA  (Brett Slocum)

> In reply to: bunny!ehn\@topaz.arpa
>
> Being somewhat of a collector of P.K.Dick myself, I have both the
> books you mentioned. I would be willing to sell them if I can find
> replacements. I'll start checking the local used bookstores, if
> you want.
>
> BTW, could you send or post a list of all Philip K. Dick printed
> matter?

Not asking for much, are you? :-)

You may want to look for:

PKD: A PHILIP K. DICK BIBLIOGRAPHY, compiled by Daniel J H Levack,
        Underwood/Miller, 1981.

It's 156 pages of bibliographic data, including photo reproductions
of Dick's books and sf magazines that featured Dick stories on the
cover. There are also annotations by Steven Owen Godersky describing
the plots. The bibliography covers books, short fiction, unpublished
manuscripts, non-fiction, verse, and works about Dick. There are
also lists of collaborative works, connecting stories, and a
chronologically arranged list of Dick's work. Levack is one of the
prime bibliographers in the field, and this is worth getting if
you're a hardcore Dick fan.
        The book is available in both hardcover and softcover. I'm
sorry, but I don't have price information on hand. I believe that
the softcover is $9.95 softcover and the hardcover is $17.95, but I
couldn't swear to it.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: timeinc!dwight@topaz.arpa (Dwight Ernest)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Date: 11 May 85 03:21:13 GMT

>What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS?
>--bsa

Well, how about fascism as glorified politics?
How about blind military allegiance?
How about violence==glory?
Fortunately, it's difficult not to have a great deal of sympathy and
identity with the bad "guys" in RAH's STARSHIP TROOPERS. Kind of
like the way most Americans and British and Russians feel about what
their country did in WW II.  But even WW II had its many agonizing
moments of vast grey areas (take just one example--Allied ignorance
of the 300+ Nazi death camps). In RAH's world, there seem to be no
grey areas, so we like the book (I really did enjoy it). But in real
life there's grey everywhere.
        And that's why blind allegiance, unquestioning military
service, and the equating of violence with glory are SO DAMNABLY
DANGEROUS.
        One would hope Homo Sapiens will soon outgrow this kind of
behavior--and literature--which leads down the path to the kind of
dangerous "true belief" that Eric Hoffer warned us against. And
which Hitler made such successful use of.

        --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN  \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight
          Time Inc. Edit./Prod. Tech. Grp., New York City
          Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523
          Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 04:59:13-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: STARSHIP TROOPERS

> What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS?

Well, I can't speak for Pamela Dean (she speaks well enough for
herself, thank you), but I can tell you what *I* saw wrong with
STARSHIP TROOPERS. It was dull, dull, dull! You can say whatever you
feel like in defense of it, but I tried *three* times to read it,
and never got through more than about a third of it.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: reed!wab@topaz.arpa (William Baker)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Date: 12 May 85 04:50:49 GMT

> What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS?

        The main problem with Starship Troopers is that it glorifies
war.  John Rico, the main character, spends most of the book
watching his buddies get blown away, all the while moralizing to
himself on the necessity of war.  In the future of Starship
Troopers, the planetary government consists exclusively of veterans
and only veterans can vote.  The overall theme is that people who do
not wish to serve in the military are social parasites.
        Heinlein reasons his arguments well, though.  The government
of veterans does not survive because it is morally superior to other
forms; it continues to govern because it works.  Also, it is made
perfectly clear that the Bugs are determined to exterminate humans.
There is no possibility for a negotiated peace, so the moral
argument is not applicable.
        However, even this premise can be turned on its head.  The
most obvious example of this is Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War".
Haldeman takes Heinlein's premise and some of his plot and turns the
values around.  It is exactly what one would expect from someone who
read Heinlein avidly but also served in Vietnam (Haldeman).  Great
stuff.
        Dean's comment is apt.  I have read my copy of Starhip
troopers so many times that the pages are falling out.  On the
whole, it is not nearly as biased and jingoistic as Farnham's
Freehold.  In that novel he starts out with a nuclear war in which
the main character, a thin, balding contractor/engineer (sound like
someone familiar?), is determined to survive the war by hiding in
his bomb shelter so that he can go out and "kill those pigs who
killed my country!...I may die, but I'll have eight russian sideboys
to carry my coffin!" or something like that.  He and his gang are
blown into the future where Negros are the dominant race and whites
are slaves, making the point, in Heinlein's mind, that if there were
more blacks than whites in modern times then they would enslave the
whites, etc.
        I'm not accusing Heinlein of racism.  If it is there, it is
latent.  Really, though, he has written some things that are
shameful.  Sometimes I wish he would listen to himself as much as
others listen to him.  He contradicts himself a great deal.  On the
other hand, the discussions recently that have denigrated his last
few books and suggested that he is past his prime are off the mark.
Heinlein is self-indulgent, hackneyed, and opinionated, but he is
still writing with the insight and sensitivity has made him one of
the three great s.f. writers.  Hopefully, he will do as he has
always done: Tell everyone to go to hell and write what he wants to
write.
                                                Bill Baker
                                                tektronix!reed!wab

------------------------------

From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot)
Subject: "The Dungeon Master" <<SPOILER!!>>
Date: 11 May 85 05:39:24 GMT

I just returned from the movies with my friend, Jon Trudel, and we
both agreed that immediate review was in order for the movie, "THE
DUNGEON MASTER".

The movie is based on the old "Pass these tests or the girl gets
it!" idea.  There were seven of these - each one right out of an
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons scenario.  In fact, the impression I
got was that "The Dungeon Master" was written by a Dungeon Master
complete with what the author thought should be the players and
their reactions.  Personally I feel I could have written a better
script given the idea (which is original in the fact that no one has
taken a D&D scenario (crappy as it may be) and turned it into a
movie.

        Most of the wit came from the audience and not "The Dungeon
Master."  Some examples:

        "If you do not find your girlfriend in one hour she will be
         knifed.  Get the point?..."

     The hero was sleeveless wearing padded armor when the villian
asked,

        "What do you have up your sleeves?"

        That was our cue to yell out "What sleeves?!?!"

     In reply to one of the villian's propositions our hero said,

        "Just one word.  Forget it."
        Maybe he meant "Just two words" or maybe he meant "Forgetit."

        Well?  Comments, flames?
                                        eliot
uucp:{allegra,seismo}!topaz!lear
arpa:[Lear@Rutgers.arpa]

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan)
Subject: the Dungeon Master
Date: 11 May 85 06:41:39 GMT

I just had the misfortune of going to see this film, and I want to
warn you that it is quite bad.  This is a film that will fade from
memory, with luck.

<Begin mild spoiler, although film already spoiled>

the Dungeon Master had an interesting idea.  Our hero, played by
Jeffrey Byron (who looks like Gary Kroger of SNL fame), is a
'computer genuis' who has developed an incredo-computer called 'CAL'
(supposedly for "ExCALibur 8", but we all know what they're really
referring to...).  C(H)AL can affect many things in the material
world, from changing traffic lights to robbing automatic teller
machines.  Anyhow, we meet his girlfriend, an aerobics instructor
who knows extremely little about computers.  She hates CAL, and sees
it as a threat to their relationship.

One night, the Devil summons them, and holds the girl hostage.  The
Devil has found, at last, an individual worthy of testing, thanks to
the guy's technological expertise.  The guy (his name escapes me,
thank God) is dubbed the 'Excalibrate', due to C(HAL)'s name, and is
given a complete link to C(H)AL.  Ex is forced to complete seven
tests, and if he fails, he and the girl give up their souls.  Thus
begins the movie, and it fails on these followup 'episodes'.

<spoiler continuing, with reasons for being spoiled >

I thought the premise of the film was good, but as the movie
progressed, it got worse.  The minor episodes were not completely
there.  They lacked true continuity, and their conclusions were
derived from God knows where.  For example, I might have missed the
explanation, but Excalibrate grabs a crystal out of the hands of a
frozen Albert Einstein (don't ask), smashes it, and completing the
test.  Also, Excalibrate interfaces with C(H)AL via a funky uniform
consisting of padded vest and gauntlet getup.  Along the way, C(H)AL
becomes a kill-o-zapping kluge-device that scans, broadcasts, melts
handcuffs, and more (it even makes Julienne fries ;-) ).  I don't
mind this, but Ex-baby can do all of this just by punching a few
buttons on either gauntlet (he wasn't given a clue on how to operate
the sucker).

In defense of the Dungeon Master, there were a few good points to
the film, but they were not developed past a quick showing on the
screen.  I liked the situation in the beginning where the guy
proposes, but the girl is hesitant to say yes; this is because she
feels C(H)AL would always be a third member of the marriage.  This
is not all that bad, and I'll bet there are a lot of people who
dislike computers for the same reason. There is a followup nightmare
chock full of symbolism that I liked, but it was too short.

I also think that the producers of this film knew that it wouldn't
be regarded as a serious flick, because there are several lines
which were obviously added for the audience to respond to.  The best
one had to be at a time when Excalibrate was trying to talk the
Devil into a deal, and the Devil cautiously says, 'you have nothing
up your sleeves?'  to which my friend and I shouted simultaneously
'NO SLEEVES!'  (he was wearing a vest, get it?)

<all spoilers off>

If I had to rate this film, I wouldn't.  It was definitely a film of
the 'so-bad-it's-good' genre, but I would recommend that if you want
to see this film, go to a matinee.  You won't feel too cheated.

ps-if you do go to see it, also look for the similarities certain
scenes have with the scenes of other major sf films.  One from the
Trek III stands out in my mind right now...

pps-Looking at the ad for the Dungeon Master, I see a small
inclusion that states 'This motion picture is not related in any
manner to the TSR, Inc.  game entitled "Dungeons and Dragons" or any
characters therein.'  They wouldn't be trying to cash in on D&D's
fame, would they?  Naaaah.

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: "The Dungeon Master" <<SPOILER!!>>
Date: 12 May 85 19:38:25 GMT

> Personally I feel I could have written a better script given the
> idea (which is original in the fact that no one has taken a D&D
> scenario (crappy as it may be) and turned it into a movie.

Nope--the common consensus is that ARCHER: THE FUGITIVE FROM THE
EMPIRE (a made-for-TV movie from 1981) did just that.  (Probably
others too.)
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot)
Subject: Re: "The Dungeon Master" <<SPOILER!!>>
Date: 12 May 85 21:50:23 GMT

>> Personally I feel I could have written a better script given the
>> idea (which is original in the fact that no one has taken a D&D
>> scenario (crappy as it may be) and turned it into a movie.
>
> Nope--the common consensus is that ARCHER: THE FUGITIVE FROM THE
> EMPIRE (a made-for-TV movie from 1981) did just that.  (Probably
> others too.)

        Ok.  Then in that case, the "The Dungeon Master" was just so
bad that it was funny - not even original.

                                        eliot

uucp: [{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!topaz!lear]
arpa: [Lear@RU-BLUE.arpa]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 85 12:45 IDT
From: Tamir Weiner  <ZSTAMIR%WEIZMANN.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: request for info on  V

There was some talk of the "V" t.v. series some while back.  Since I
had never heard or seen the series, I basically ignored the
comments, which I only recall were mostly negative.

Well out here in Israel, finally some quack in charge of buying
American serials decided the SciFi fans had been starved long
enough...  They bought (leased) the V series and started to screen
it weekly during the kiddie hour.  As an aside, the V series
replaced Wonder Woman, which replaced VOYAGERS (which was fairly
clever, and quite educational).  Not being a Lynda Carter fan, I
have nothing nice to say on the Wonder Woman Series.

But V, well, here's a series to warm the heart of any SF junkie.
Yes it's crude, ridiculous SFX, and the thread of a plot.... and if
you changed the lizards to Cylons, and the time and place, you are
left with a rip-off of Battlestar Glactica.

Too bad the Cosmos series ended, that was really a delight --
although you wouldn't call it scifi, more like Science with a dash
of speculation, and a lot of philosophizing... but still a delight.

Anyway, as you can see from my running off at the keyboard, you'd
say that Israel isn't starving for Sci Fi TV, just GOOD SCI FI,
which considering the amount of good SCI FI TV there is is the same
boat all of you in the STates face.  You just get the advantage of
seeing the crap first, before it is sold world wide.  I think I'm
agreeing with all those who said Hollywood would never make a decent
film, TV series, special, or whatever from the greats of SCI FI
literature.  Just isn't economical. So we put up with the junk, and
even enjoy watching the likes of V.

Which brings me to why I wrote this little letter.  I missed the
first episode of V, and have no idea who Elizabeth is.... or her
role as the Star Child Although she is adorable and nice to see each
week, I would certainly like to know what's the point of her being
so central to the story.

Anyone in net-land care to jot off a quick reply and just tell me
why she is so important.... without spoiling the end please.
Thanks.

If it's not too much trouble, send me a copy of what you post to the
digest to ZSTAMIR@WEIZMANN.BITNET (I'm on the Bitnet network, not
Arpa!)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 85 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #161
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:

           Books - Sturgeon & "Space Willies" (2 msgs) &
                   Book Series & Ghastly Beyond Belief,
           Films - Ladyhawke,
           Miscellaneous - Criticizing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 85 11:47:33 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: In Memoriam: Theodore Sturgeon

                            In Memoriam:

                         THEODORE STURGEON
                            1918 - 1985

Theodore Sturgeon, author of novels including MORE THAN HUMAN and
THE DREAMING JEWELS, and stories including "Slow Sculpture", "To
Here and The Easel", "It", "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let
One Marry Your Sister", "Killdozer", "Mr. Costello, Hero",
"Microcosmic God", and "A Saucer of Loneliness", died this past
week, after a series of progressive breathing-related health
problems, at the age of 67.

Born Edward Hamilton Waldo of Dutch-French and Canadian-English
heritage, Ted appeared in the science fiction scene with "Ether
Breather" in 1939, followed rapidly by stories such as "A God In A
Garden", "Derm Fool", and the classic "It", in magazines such as
ASTOUNDING and UNKNOWN.  Ted soon became a member of editor John
Campbell's "stable" of writers, which also included Robert Heinlein,
L. Sprague de Camp, E.E. Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, and A.E. Van Vogt --
a roster of names who, along with Isaac Asimov, Poul Anderson, C.A.
Kornbluth, and Henry Kuttner.

To list the range of characters, styles, ideas, or plots in
Sturgeon's work is no small task.  His stories were about
scientists, bulldozer operators, circus people, fencepost setters.
In addition to science fiction, fantasy and horror, he wrote several
novellas collected under the Western genre, in STURGEON'S WEST,
along with a full novelization, THE KING AND FOUR QUEENS.  He wrote
the mainstream SOME OF YOUR BLOOD, and I, LIBERTINE, originally an
imaginary book touted by radio personality Jean Shepherd.  He wrote
the novel adaptation for the movie of VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE
SEA, and several Star Trek episodes including "Shore Leave" and (I
believe) "Amok Time".  His fiction appear in magazines ranging from
F&SF OMNI to HUSTLER, ROLLING STONE, and NATIONAL LAMPOON.  He also
did extensive book reviewing, went on tour as writer for ROLLING
STONE with rock groups (Crosby Stills Nash and Young, I think).  The
only criticisms I can level against his work is that he didn't write
more, particularly finishing GODBODY and/or the projected sequel to
MORE THAN HUMAN; that more of his existing work wasn't collected;
and that his books were for the most part so damned hard to find.

His major books and collections include:

WITHOUT SORCERY (collection)
THE DREAMING JEWELS (novel, often titled THE SYNTHETIC MAN)
E PLURIBUS UNICORN (collection)
MORE THAN HUMAN (novel, consisting of the novellas "The
  Fabulous Idiot", "Baby is Three", and "Morality")
A WAY HOME (collection)
CAVIAR (collection)
A TOUCH OF STRANGE (collection)
THE COSMIC RAPE (expansion of "To Marry Medusa")
ALIENS 4 (collection)
BEYOND (collection)
VENUS PLUS X (novel)
STURGEON IN ORBIT (collection)
STARSHINE (collection)
SOME OF YOUR BLOOD (novel)
THE STARS ARE THE STYX (collection)
THE WORLDS OF THEODORE STURGEON (collection)
STURGEON IS ALIVE AND WELL (collection)
CASE AND THE DREAMER (collection)
STURGEON'S WEST (collection)

In addition to his writing, speaking, teaching, videotapes and other
projects, Ted recorded several "spoken word" records of his work for
Caedmon and Alternate Worlds, wrote with wife Jayne Tanehill
Sturgeon the movie screenplay for MORE THAN HUMAN (not currently
under option, I think).  He also taught at many sf writer's
workshops, including Clarion, and had recently put together a series
of videotapes on writing.

The people Ted touched during his life through his writing, his
teaching, and personally, are probably beyond counting.  He was
surrounded by exceptional people and exceptional events, often
spending months "on the road" at everywhere from Esalen and Hawaii
to Kansas and Europe.  He was an individual of the first water,
refusing to wear a tuxedo to a charity function, and then announcing
he would donate the rental cost to the cause, typing first/final
draft copy to put in the mail minutes before deadline ... there are
doubtlessly hundreds, even thousands, of stories about Ted Sturgeon,
ranging from the humorous to the incredible.

The following is from Samuel Delaney's novella EMPIRE STAR (spoken
by the Lump to Comet Jo, concerning poet Ti Ty Lee):

      "You will find, during your reading, Jo, that certain authors
      seem to have discovered all the things you have discovered,
      done all you've done.  There was one ancient science fiction
      writer, Theodore Sturgeon, who would break me up every time I
      read him.  He seemed to have seen every flash of light on a
      window, every leaf shadow on a screen door that I had ever
      seen; done everything I had ever done from playing the guitar
      to laying over for a couple of weeks on a boat in Arransas
      Pass, Texas."

Ted was also plagued by many of the problems which seem endemic to
artists, particularly science fiction writers -- writer's block,
finances, and irregular lifestyles.  During the past year, Ted's
health had been declining.  Accustomed to perfect health -- not even
so much as a sniffle, Ted was hard hit by a series of problems which
brought him into the hospital, forced him to carry oxygen, and most
recently sent him to Hawaii for healing of his respiratory system.
According to members of his family, he died "with the same style and
dignity that he lived his life." He is survived by family, friends,
and a body of work the likes of which we will not see again.

He was a dear, sweet, amazing man, and I'll miss the hell out of
him.
                             Daniel P. Dern
                             May 10, 1985

(Note: Some of the above information was cribbed from Sam Moskowitz'
profile on Theodore Sturgeon from AMAZING STORIES, around 1962.  And
my bibliographies stop at 1962.  So I may be off here and there on
minor details. DPD)

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@topaz.arpa (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Re: Yet another story request
Date: 10 May 85 23:37:32 GMT

Dale Groves, searching old memories for a story title, writes:
> I'm not sure, but this sounds like it could be 'The Space Willies'
> - author forgotten - I'll try to look it up 2 nite and mail you
> with author and flip side of double.  In my recollection, the
> prisoner also tried to befuddle his captors with logic problems
> such as:
>
>       if one hemisphere of a planet is water and the other
>       hemisphere is land, is the water half a lake or the land
>       half an island, given that an island is a body of land
>       surrounded by water and a lake is a body of water
>       surrounded by land.....
>
        I think the original story was titled "Plus X" and was by
Christopher Anvil.  Public opinion seems to favor Eric Frank Russell
- I can't check till I get home and look up the cover art in a book
of Freas paintings and drawings.

        Dale is merging this story with "Diabologic" - also
published in ASF in 1956.

Full-Name:  Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch)
Subject: Re: Space Willies
Date: 20 May 85 14:48:06 GMT

   It would appear that judging from the replies to Sue Brezden's
query that "The Space Willies" was published as "Next of Kin" in the
U.K.  A tentative explanation for this lies in my memories of
schooldays past. Around the time I was 10 years old, "willy" was
popular slang for a certain piece of the male anatomy. "Willy" is
still used today, I think, but always has vaguely juvenile
connotations. It is easy to see why a British publisher chose to
change the name. Still, "Space Willies" eh? ..... The mind boggles.

                                               Chris Welch,
                                               Cranfield Institute,
                                               U.K.
                                               csw@ukc.uucp

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Fri, 10 May 85 16:09:16 PDT
Subject: In re: J. Hawthorne's series flame

     I agree with Jennifer that it is often difficult-to-impossible
to figure out in advance that an author has presented us with the
first book in a series.  When a writer presents us with a series
segment that has no real ending and could have "to be continued. .
." on the last page, I feel that he or she has artificially created
a book that should not exist.  Series segments ought to be able to
stand on their own merit.  I've twice had the frustrating experience
of reading enjoyable first-of- a-series books of the "to be
continued. . ." type that were apparently so unpopular with everyone
else that the next segment never came.

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 May 85 14:45 CDT
From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Ghastly Beyond Belief

Those of you visting Great Britain this summer (and who get there
before the islands sink under the weight of the American tourists)
may wish to acquire a copy of the referenced tome, a mildly amusing
collection of SF quotes in suitably garish paperback format.  It has
one piece of inside information: the difference between the US and
GB editions of _Life, The Universe, and Everything_.  It also has a
dismaying number of typos, especially in the dates of movies.
Nonetheless, the section on classic SF blurbs is worth the purchase
price, at least if the dollar stays strong.

------------------------------

Subject: the horse in Ladyhawke
Date: 13 May 85 17:59:38 PDT (Mon)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Goliath, the horse in Ladyhawke, is a Frisian (spelling not quite
certain), a strain bred in the Netherlands' province of Friesland
(which is also famous for its Frisian strain of cattle -- very good
meat producers).  My sources of information, both professional horse
trainers and riding instructors, tell me also that that was just the
sort of horse a knight in that kind of armour would ride.  They saw
the film, and they both loved the horse.  They also tell me that
black is a typical colour for Frisians.

Rather appropriate: a Dutch horse for Hauer to ride.

                                Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics
Date: 9 May 85 19:03:45 GMT

>  After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to
>say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies.
>Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most
>comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few good,
>supporting statements are made. Now you must remember that writing
>allows much more freedom of expression than does movie making.  I
>feel that given the restrictions of time, money, available actors
>(with talent) and politics (which eventually enter any large
>project) what we see is not too bad.

        Well, I partly agree with you. I've certainly been guilty of
potshots at movies I dislike on this net, perhaps more often than
I've put in a kind word for those movies I like. It's easier to pan
than praise, I think.
        Still, I must take partial exception to your comments. There
are a number of people on the net who are kind enough to take the
trouble to do very good reviews of SF movies, reviews that are
thorough, well- written, and fair. We may not always agree with
these reviewers' opinions, but they always explain their opinions,
and I end up feeling better- informed about the films even when I
don't agree with the conclusions.  The Leepers (Mark and Evelyn) and
Peter Reiher, as well as some other worthy critics whose names
escape me (sorry) deserve our thanks for their efforts, and they
have mine.
        I also think you give the filmmakers too much slack. Sure,
there are many difficulties encountered in making good films, but it
remains true that many SF films come out badly because they're just
bad art.  Many are made for the quick buck, many are made by people
who are quite ignorant of science fiction, but too arrogant or
unconcerned to find out about it before making their sci-fi trash.
Look at many of the SF films of recent years: SF is popular these
days, and a lot of these films had the necessary time, money and
talent to be good. Even so, not all of them were. Consider DUNE;
consider THE BLACK HOLE; consider how often Hollywood has chosen the
good old remake, when there are dozens of classic SF novels crying
to be made into films. I don't think all the abysmal failures can be
written off as due to the inevitable difficulties of filmmaking.
The fact is, too many producers neither know nor care what makes a
good film. Their only concern is to make sure-fire box-office
winners, and their shortcomings as artists are often most apparent
with SF films, because they see SF as a trash genre, mostly for the
kiddies and teens.

>   My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not
>putting its heart and soul into SF.  No matter what they try, it
>gets torn apart by SF 'fans'.  Nothing is good enough, nothing is
>acceptable.

        No, not really true. An example: STAR WARS was at first seen
by Fox as middle-weight Summer fare which would at best turn a small
profit. It originally had a small promotional budget, and opened at
minor locations. It was only because Lucas had Charlie Lippincott
running around to all the SF cons for a year before it opened that
the movie took off as it did, in my opinion. SF fans were waiting
for that film with their mouths watering because of the
presentations at the cons, and this was why the lines ran around the
block when the film quietly opened. It was only after the studios
saw this initial enthusiastic reception that the film was given a
big "premiere" at the Chinese, and a big promo budget.  Most SF fans
*like* STAR WARS, a *lot* (Ellison notwithstanding), and while we
would also like to see some more serious SF films, we're willing to
recognize quality when we see it.

>If I was a movie producer and read this digest, I wouldn't even
>attempt SF.  I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a T-shirt, and
>be assured to make money without anyone noticing the plot (or lack
>of).

        What I find truly ironic is that many of the producer's
"sure- fire" formula films actually bite the big one at the BO. If
these potboilers really *were* guaranteed money-makers, I'd be a
little more inclined to excuse the low level of artistry that too
often characterizes Hollywood films. But since this is not so, I'll
still maintain that the major problem is that many producers are
Philistines, and too stupid to even realize that. They think the
average moviegoer has as little taste as they do, but that's not
(quite) true.

>  I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the
>clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the
>creative and original ideas, the novel approaches.  Don't be in
>such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon of critics that recognition
>is forgotten.  Support for what the industry does right may create
>more progress and generate more creative ideas than continuous,
>boring and tiresome criticisms.

        Partly true; mea culpa. But part of encouraging better films
is also not to let them get away with junk and sloppy seconds. If
we're not willing to call a spade a dirty old shovel, how will the
schlockmeisters ever realize we're not satisfied with garbage?

                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 85 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #162
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brust & SF Poll (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Criticizing (2 msgs) & 
                         Authors in Person

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 9 May 85 23:49:24 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews.
>
>However, I am into bad form these days.
>
>The thing is, there were a few points that just made me itch to
>answer, so I'm going to scratch the itch.  I hope you don't mind.

Mind?  Actually getting a reply from someone who has been published,
talking about a review of his work?  Why should I mind?

>Absolutly not!  There are only three possible sequels that I can
>see: First, the book of Job.  No thanks, Heinlein covered it.
>Certainly not the same way I would have, but he did.  In any case,
>this would have been a short story or a Novelette, which, as they
>said in Monty Python and the Holy Grain, "Isn't my idiom."  Second,
>the Passion.  Yeah, I could, but I'm just not interested.  The
>point of the book was NOT to offend anyone, though I'm willing to
>if necessary.  Doing the Passion WOULD be offensive, and I just
>don't have enough interest in it to justify it.  The third
>possibility for a sequal is the appocalypse.  Yeeeech!  I almost
>killed myself doing the research for HELL.  Do you have any idea
>how much appocalyptic literture I'd have to wade through to do a
>competent sequal????  No way!!!

Good.  It looked frighteningly like a sequel was pending, probably a
rewrite of Genesis.

As for offending anyone, I'm offended, but let me make clear the
reasons.  The book clearly intends to be a retelling of the
pre-creation mythos which developed in medieval Europe from some
Jewish and Gnostic traditions.  This mythos was adapted by Milton
when he wrote Paradise Lost.

Now, the things that offend: First, it will offend any orthodox Jew
because the Name of God is not supposed to be written casually, and
never ever is it supposed to be destroyed (treated as trash).  Those
names have meanings and they can add to the cognitive dissonance.
"Satan" means "adversary" for instance.

It will offend just about any educated Christian.  There are several
points of basic theology which you tweaked with.  First, the
reduction of God from the absolute to "just" another angel.  Second,
the denial of the trinity inherent in the existence of Yeshua as you
described it.  Third, the creation of Yeshua as an entity well after
everything else in Heaven, and the very sick personality which you
ascribed to him.

>> ... My real complaint, however, is that the choice was the
>> OBVIOUS one.  If you want to make it tragic, take the cheap way,
>> make Satan the good, honorable one who refuses to go along with
>> the duplicitous and rather foolish Y*hw*h.  And of course God is
>> "just another angel" and Yeshua is the last created angel, rather
>> than the coequal or even the first created.  Yawn.
>
>Okay, here we go.  If this is what you took from it, I didn't do my
>job.  This is unquestionably a flaw.  But, for the sake of
>discussion, I'll say this: What you describe was exactly what I was
>trying NOT to do.  Satan admits in conversation with Beelzebub,
>toward the end, that Yaweh had been RIGHT, that his decisions were
>correct and that he, Satan, was wrong.

What he admits to Beelzebub, and what the rest of the angels do not
grasp, is that the story which was concocted with Abdiel's
collaboration was a true one as far as it went; that Satan was
explicitly created BY Y*hw*h as were the others.  That was the
political linchpin on which everyone else organized around Satan,
that and the creation of Yeshua.  The "untruth" is that there was no
planned, deliberated, careful creation of ANYTHING (according to
your own descriptive interludes) until the existence of an area
large enough to live in and (sort of) relax in had been established.
Y*hw*h did not believe this to be the case; he accepted this
dishonesty as necessary and followed through with it.  God as
Richard Nixon.  Since this theme predominates among the ancient and
current Gnostic philosophies, and it is just too easy to do, I got
the idea that this was a cheap shot.

>I never did buy that anyone with Satan's intelligence could have
>revolted against an omnipotant God.  So, why did it happen?  I
>think there are as many holes in my approach as in the traditional
>one, but they are different holes.  However, I don't see where it
>was "cheap."  I went over and over that manuscript, doing my best
>to make sure there were no cheap shots, or any actions motivated by
>stupidity.

If Y*hw*h has the power to OBSERVE (and probably to communicate) at
a distance, why would he believe Abdiel rather than using his own
power to investigate the claim?

For that matter, as to why anyone would revolt against an omnipotent
God, try, ignorance of the true nature of that omnipotence, pride in
one's own tremendous power, the simple refusal to obey.  You touched
on THAT topic very nicely and I really thought that would be the
nature of the tragedy, the tension between obedience and free
choice.

As for omniscience.  You granted Y*w*h the power to find out
anything; this was not automatic but rather seemed more like
traditional Angelic Knowledge.  True omniscience consists of
automatically KNOWING.

>If I had succeeded, you wouldn't have come away with the opinion
>you did, yet I can't see where I failed.  Yaweh was drivin by love,
>Abdiel by fear, Satan by indecision, and Beelzebub by loyalty.  If
>there was anyone in the entire book who really knew what was going
>on, it was Lilith, but she was too lacking in self-confidence to
>take the necessary steps.

Y*w*h was driven by love and anger and the desire for survival.
Abdiel was driven by fear, by greed for power, and by his
immaturity.  Beelzebub was pretty much loyalty incarnate, hence the
doggy form; Satan was paralyzed by indecision but driven by
ignorance and by stubborn pride.  At least, that was what I
perceived.

>No, Yaweh was never evil.  He was forced into evil actions, as was
>Satan, by his own failings.  The real flaw in the book (I say its a
>flaw because very few people have picked it up, so I obviously
>didn't bring it off) was this: Abdial's actions didn't matter.  If
>there had been no Abdial, things would have proceeded in almost
>exactly the same way.  In some sense, that was the point of the
>book, so in that sense, the book failed.  I take consolation in the
>number of people who have enjoyed it anyway--to me, a book's
>"point" is secondary to its enjoyment value.  This is one reason
>that I like C. S. Lewis and don't like George Orwell--even though I
>disagree with them to same extent.

If there had been no Abdiel, then there would have been no lies, no
murders in Heaven, and the tension would have to have developed
along the lines of Satan and Y*w*h trying to convince each other of
their respective positions.  I didn't LIKE Abdiel but I do think he
was crucial in the development of the plot you wrote.

As for "never evil" once again we disagree.  AS YOU DEFINED THE
SITUATION it was wrong for Y*w*h to resort to coercion and the
choice to do so was morally wrong.  How does one persist in a course
of action which is admittedly "evil" without accepting that evil
and, in fact, BECOMING evil?  A "lesser of two evils" is still an
evil.  There was lots of room there for further exploration.

The real problem with the story was that you were writing in a
minefield.  Nearly every american has SOME preconceptions about the
Judeo-Christian beliefs and therefore will find SOMETHING wrong with
a story where their own preconceptions have to be reconciled to the
story.  This is a LOT of the reason I dislike the book, but I have
tried to keep my objections on a basis of literary analysis.

>There.  It was probably stupid to write this, but maybe you hit me
>where it hurt.  In any case, I will repeat, it is a pleasure to be
>read and reviewed by people who actually READ the book, and have
>something to say about it, even if the review is negative.
>                       -- SKZB

My apologies and touche'.  Your book hit ME where it hurt.  I am
eagerly awaiting the arrival of Jhereg and Yendl at the local
Powell's Books.

Hutch

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: The Canonical SF collection
Date: 10 May 85 22:34:38 GMT

freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) writes:
>Add to recommendations of recent good SF:
>
>David Brin's _Sundiver_;
>Frederick Pohl's Heechee triology -- _Gateway_,
>    _Beyond_the_Blue_Event_Horizon_, and
>    _Heechee_Rendezvous_;
>Dean Ing's _Systemic_Shock_ and _Single_Combat_;
>John Ford's _The_Final_Reflection_

    A couple of years ago net.sf-lovers ran a poll of the "best" SF
which i found very useful in rounding out my SF collection.
Unfortunately these crazy authors have not stopped publishing good
stuff and being only human i can't read all the new material. What i
propose is an update to bring the Canon up to date. Please send me
**mail** if you have a group of books to recommend; i shall collate
the books with the highest number of votes and post to the net in
about a month's time (depending on response). I strongly recommend
mail responses since as we all know things get a little heated when
people post the "best" thing since sliced bread. The books aren't
necessarily restricted to the very recent since presumably there are
people who haven't picked up all of the classics and would be
interested in at least hearing about them. If anyone has an
electronic copy of the last such poll please mail it to me (i only
have a hard copy). Thanx.
                greg.
Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Re: The Canonical SF collection
Date: 10 May 85 22:48:17 GMT

    I forgot to include a proviso in my last posting (about
preparing a canonical list of SF). Here it is.
    If you're going to send in recommendations please include the
book's classification (hard science, fantasy, S&S, historical etc.)
and a short note explaining why you think it should belong in such a
collection. Books without such information will still be included
but they'll be placed under "miscellaneous" if i myself am not
familiar with them. Thanx again.
                greg.
Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

Date: Fri 10 May 85 11:09:12-EDT
From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics

From Mark Leeper:
>  I know I am not the only person that this is aimed at, but I am
>probably one.

   You're right...but I do consider your reviews to be more accurate
and fair than most.  They seem to show some thought and analysis
behind them, rather than just a first impression being popped out.

  The targets of my criticism were primarily those who watch a movie
and on the following day make comments like "Boy, that wasn't how I
would have done it." (in the case of a book adaptation), or "Gees,
nobody would wear a space suit like that."  These kind of comments
are generally opinions (preconceived usually) on how that person
would have presented an idea.  It doesn't say much about the quality
of the movie.  That is unless the movie does something gross like
forget about space being a vacuum.

  What REALLY gets me, though, is when one person expresses an
opinion like the above, then bunches of people start in on the movie
with similar remarks.  This gets dragged out into long discussions
that, after a few days, makes the movie sound like it didn't do
anything right.  As Alastair Milne pointed out, people who disagree
then become afraid of speaking out for fear of looking gullible or
basically stupid.  Well I'm gullible *and* basically stupid, so I
wanted to get a message to those who sit by in silent disagreement
to come out of the closet and DON'T be afraid to point out the GOOD
things.  At the same time, the critics shouldn't be so close minded
as to expect a movie to be the same as their interpretation, and
upset if it isn't.  And don't send extended flames about things that
are a) trivial or b) nonessential to the storyline.

   So that's what I intended in my original message.  You're right
Mark, I wasn't entirely right.  Some of my comments were
exaggerations.

   All of this has brought up another item of interest.  When a
movie is adapted from a book, how obligated is the movie to follow
the story?  With the kinds of restrictions I mentioned in my last
message, a direct correlation of story elements is usually
impossible.  What if the author of the screenplay believes the story
can be improved with some plot (or character) changes?  Should it be
done? How much?

  --jd

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet...
Date: 11 May 85 05:22:39 GMT

O.K. out of the closet and at 'em.

I Liked 2010.

And I didn't NOTICE any horrendous mistakes.

And I never expected it to be up to 2001.  What could be?
[<==rhetorical]

Now, back in the closet.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Authors in-person
Date: 9 May 85 17:07:42 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
>>
>> Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met
>> two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be
>> rather one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly.
>
>I've met Varley, and found him a thoroughly delightful
>man.

I've met a number of authors, and with a few exceptions I've found
them to be exceptionally wonderful people. Tops on my list are (not
in any particular order) David Gerrold, Julian May, Marta Randall,
Greg Bear and Dave Brin. I haven't met Steve Brust yet, but I'm
looking forward to it if only to see how he can still put so much
verbiage out onto the network and still get novels published...
sigh...

You have to remember that authors have bad days, and that authors
are people. I've seen too many people go up to an author with the
look in their eye that says ****AUTHOR**** -- good way to kill off
any conversation is to moon and burble at anything they say. Unless
the author can walk on water (and I reserve that to RAH at this
point...) then pretend that they are people who have to pay bills
and mow the grass just like the rest of us.

If you want an authors perspective (not ALL authors perspective,
fortunately) Harlan Ellison has an essay in 'Sleepless Nights on the
Procrustean Bed' that tells a good story on fan/harlan interactions.
The article name just flitted off into the back of my brain, but I'm
sure it won't be too hard to find in the book. Besides, you ought to
read the whole thing anyway...

From the offices of Pagans for Cthulhu: Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 May 85 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #163
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:

           Books - Benford & Farmer & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   Wells & Zelazny,
           Films - A Program of Science Fiction Shorts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is bits)
Subject: Re: Gregory Benford
Date: 13 May 85 18:16:32 GMT

> -- Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>
> /In the Ocean of Night/ is set in the near future, and involves
> humankind's first contacts with alien intelligence.  As science
> fiction, this book is very believable.  As a novel, this book is a
> work of art.  While I was slightly annoyed at the way Benford
> chose to end this book,...

Benford consistently fails on this point: endings.

If you can't end it properly, it's not art, it's not a novel.

L S Chabot
decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-AMBER!chabot
chabot%AMBER.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@topaz.arpa (I.P.Gordon)
Subject: Re: Riverworld (* SPOILER *2 *)
Date: 21 May 85 20:17:07 GMT

When I read Riverworld 6 ,but a week ago, I assumed that the
computer fixed the grails when it was repaired.This is the only
explanation I could think of.  Maybe I was 'asleep'when it was
explained, it was rather boring.

                             THE REAPER

------------------------------

From: osiris!rob@topaz.arpa (Robert St. Amant)
Subject: RAH
Date: 14 May 85 22:23:08 GMT

I have a lot of respect for Heinlein's writing, but I have some
comments that I wonder if anyone else might agree with.

I love the first half of Stranger in a Strange Land, and parts of
the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday, and so on.  But when RAH
writes about line marriages and free sex and so on, it seems
self-conscious and strained.  His "old-fashioned" treatment of women
also bothers me.

For example, in SIASL, Jubal constantly calls his female assistants
girls, but when Digby refers to Jill as the little lady, it sets her
off.  One of Jill's comments: "Nine times out of ten when a girl
gets raped it's partly her fault."  In the Puppet Masters our hero's
fiance is as tough and free spirited as they come, until they get
married and she becomes his chattel (exaggeration.)  Even Friday
bows down before male authority in the end, unless I'm remembering
badly.

I haven't read anything more recent.  Have there been changes?  BTW,
even with RAH's faults, it's hard to find sf better than his.

                                Rob St. Amant

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Date: 15 May 85 17:47:46 GMT

>> What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS?
>
>       The main problem with Starship Troopers is that it
>glorifies war.  John Rico, the main character, spends most of the
>book watching his buddies get blown away, all the while moralizing
>to himself on the necessity of war.

        It may seem a technical point, but I think ST more glorifies
warriors, than war. I would agree that it argues for the necessity
of war, but I came away with the impression that it was the military
virtues (duty, honor, country) that were supposed to be glorious,
not the making of war.

>In the future of Starship Troopers, the planetary government
>consists exclusively of veterans and only veterans can vote.  The
>overall theme is that people who do not wish to serve in the
>military are social parasites.

        But didn't Heinlein make it clear that service encompassed
many kinds of public service, not just those we usually think of as
military?

>       Heinlein reasons his arguments well, though.  The government
>of veterans does not survive because it is morally superior to
>other forms; it continues to govern because it works.

        I thought this was a weak point in the argument presented.
Heinlein, as the Omnipotent Author, portrayed a sytem as working,
and then argued for it on the basis that "it works". I'll grant that
this is a legitimate argument for a character in the book to make,
but it's meaningless outside the context of the novel. The system
worked because Heinlein wrote it that way.

>On the whole, it is not nearly as biased and jingoistic as
>Farnham's Freehold.  In that novel he starts out with a nuclear war
>in which the main character, a thin, balding contractor/engineer
>(sound like someone familiar?), is determined to survive the war by
>hiding in his bomb shelter so that he can go out and "kill those
>pigs who killed my country!...I may die, but I'll have eight
>russian sideboys to carry my coffin!" or something like that.

        Alexei Panshin (in HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION, the best study of
Heinlein's writings in print) makes the interesting point that Hugh
Farnham is almost a parody of the standard Heinlein Competent Man.
He has the brains and the skills, but nothing he does in the book
works out. He is in effect an anti-hero, a pawn of his environment,
not a successful mover and shaker.  I wonder along with Panshin if
this was Heinlein's intent, or if it just came out that way.

>He and his gang are blown into the future where Negros are the
>dominant race and whites are slaves, making the point, in
>Heinlein's mind, that if there were more blacks than whites in
>modern times then they would enslave the whites, etc.
>       I'm not accusing Heinlein of racism.  If it is there, it is
>latent.

        Surely there are no grounds for a suspicion of even latent
racism in this plot? Heinlein's point seems clear enough to me: that
racism is not a trait of whites in particular, or blacks in
particular, but a general human failing.

>Really, though, he has written some things that are shameful.

        If you only mean badly-written, I'd agree, but if you mean
the ideas are shameful, I'd be curious which ideas you have in mind.

>Sometimes I wish he would listen to himself as much as others
>listen to him.  He contradicts himself a great deal.

        Indeed he does, but I wouldn't want to assume he is unaware
of this, or that it's unintentional. Heinlein likes to play with
ideas.  I am often amazed how many people assume that every idea
which Heinlein presents in a favorable light must be a dearly-held
opinion of the author. Surely the many contradictions suggest
otherwise? It's always seemed to me that Heinlein's chief purpose is
to stimulate the reader's rational faculties by presenting
unconventional or unfashionable ideas positively. It's probable that
the ideas represent his own beliefs to some extent, but I'm never
really sure. I've always felt that the main purpose of his polemics
was to invite the readers to exercise their minds by disputing with
him mentally while reading, and not necessarily to insist that we
accept the notions.

>Heinlein is self-indulgent, hackneyed, and opinionated, but he is
>still writing with the insight and sensitivity has made him one of
>the three great s.f. writers.  Hopefully, he will do as he has
>always done: Tell everyone to go to hell and write what he wants to
>write.

        Hear, hear!
                                      Kenn Barry
                                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: The Man Who Could Work Miracles
Date: 13 May 85 23:09:13 GMT

>From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
>
>>     From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>>     Subject: GREAT SF STORIES (1939)
>>
>>     ... There is even a reference in the story to a similar story
>>     in the film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES.  ...
>
>Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the
>short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named
>H.G.  Wells.  The story is actually very short (about five pages),
>and quite enjoyable.  I read it about eight years ago while leaning
>against the library stacks.  I had previously seen the film, and it
>is a good adaptation.
>                                        barmar

FLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAME

H.G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? To speak of
one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous. Many of
his stories (The Time Machine - it invented the time-travel genre,
War of the Worlds - better written and more exciting + logical than
any of its successors) stand up today better than the forgotten work
of later writers.

FLAMEOFF

The film of WOTW (1950s) is a fair attempt at moving the story from
the English Home Counties to California -try it.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 May 85 03:27:55-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Trumps of Doom

Ok.  I read it.  I liked it.  A lot.  The back cover says that
Zelazny is already at work on the next one.  This is a good thing,
because otherwise I would have to take up painting and trump into
his living room to persuade him that this should be a priority item.
While this is not quite as bad as Jack of Shadows, where Jack is not
only falling off of a cliff but it is ambiguous as to whether or not
he hits bottom, it is a pretty sadistic place to end a book.

--Rob <sra@mit-xx.arpa>

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: A Program of Science Fiction Shorts
Date: 10 May 85 18:49:32 GMT

     I just saw a program of science fiction/fantasy short films at
a local revival theater.  A couple I'd seen before, a couple I'd
heard of, and the rest were new to me.  As might be expected, they
were a mixed bag.

     "It's an OK Life" is an animated short chronicling the life of
a man born in 1999.  It's brief, fairly funny, indifferently
animated, and painless.

     "Sam's Arcade" is a Canadian film, product of the infamous Film
Board of Canada.  Sometimes it seems to me like they'll produce
anything if the animation technique is even moderately innovative.
That is the only reason I can see for "Sam's Arcade".  As best I can
make out, it's about a fellow who has some slightly sf-toned
nightmares when he eats food near bedtime.  Years ago, Winston McCay
made an interesting animated film on this theme, taken from the
Little Nemo comic strip.  "Sam's Arcade" isn't at all interesting.
It uses a rotoscoping technique somewhat similar to the Eleanor
Rigby sequence from "Yellow Submarine", but apparently different
enough to gouge some money out of the pockets of Canadian taxpayers.
(No flames about the good works of the Canadian Film Board, please.
They've done some good stuff, but too much of their output is self
indulgence in technique.)

     "Contact" is a Russian animated film about an alien
encountering a human artist out in the country.  It's modestly
amusing, modestly animated, just plain modest overall.  The biggest
laugh may come from the film's insistent use of the love theme from
"The Godfather", a film I would bet never saw release in the USSR.
I'd also bet Nino Rota, who wrote the theme, didn't see a penny for
its use in "Contact".

     The centerpiece of the program, indeed, its reason for
existence, was "Futureopolis", a homemade 40 minute science fiction
extravaganza.  Almost all of it is animated, much of it in
pixillation.  For those not up on animation terminology, pixillation
is a technique in which live actors are photographed a frame at a
time.  You shoot one frame, the actors move slightly, you prepare
for the next shot, shoot one more frame, and so on.  At twenty four
frames per second, pixillation isn't easy.  I'm not quite sure why
they chose to use so much pixillation, unless it is for consistency
of tone.  Much of the film could have been shot as live action,
saving a lot of effort.

     "Futureopolis" cost somewhere between $20,000 and $40,000 to
make, and took 9 years to complete.  It contains some impressive
effects, a lot of pretty good effects, only a few really bad ones.
There are also some very funny bits.  It is, however, ultimately a
cinematic equivalent of Dr. Johnson's dancing dog: the remarkable
thing about it isn't that it's good, but that it works at all.  I
doubt if $40,000 dollars has been made to go so far for quite some
time in a film, but the ideas behind the film are weak.  It's meant
to be sort of a Buck Rogers spoof, but those making it know much
more about art and special effects than they do about writing.  The
hard core science fiction film fan will definitely want to watch for
"Futureopolis".  Others will probably enjoy it well enough if they
stumble across it, but shouldn't worry about missing it.

     "Highrise" is another pointless demonstration of good special
effects.  A spacecraft rips a skyscraper out of the ground and drops
it in the middle of the desert, nearly crushing a parched man
crawling along looking for water.  It's very short and the effects
are pretty good.

     "The Plant" is one of the films I've seen before, and I
commented on it in this newsgroup about a year and a half ago.
Briefly, it's the story of a plant that takes over a man's house.
Well worth seeing, as it is wittily told.

     "Nun Fu" has an irresistable title and a neat pseudo-sf
premise, set up in a lengthy precredit crawl which had the audience
in hysterics. Unfortunately, the inventiveness flags quickly and the
film lasts much too long.  A couple of martial artist nuns try to
wrest a briefcase from each other.  The idea is funny for three or
four minutes, but the film drags it out another ten minutes, and
tries to get laughs time and again from having one of the combatants
return from seemingly fatal wounds to take another shot at it.  None
the less, any film with this title which claims to have been shot on
location at the Vatican and which lists Travis Bickle as the
religious advisor can't be all bad.

     "Cambium" is a weird, brief series of strange images.  In some
ways it is reminiscent of "Eraserhead", perhaps in part because it
is in black and white.  I didn't understand it, but it was
interesting.  Since it's very short, I doubt if anyone will be much
put out by it, unless the odd symbolism is deciphered by someone and
turns out to be as offensive as it vaguely hints.

     The last film was "Quest", which I had also seen before.
Directed by Saul and Elaine Bass, this was the only film in the
program which really looked professional.  It even looked pretty
good for a professional film.  Saul Bass has been a widely
recognized creator of opening credit sequences for films for some
years.  He also directed "Phase IV", an ecological disaster film
involving ants and dazzling scenic design.  The effects in "Quest"
are first rate, especially the sets which are produced in a variety
of ways.  The story, by Ray Bradbury, isn't special, but gives many
opportunities for interesting effects.  The real flaw in "Quest" is
that it plays more like an audition film than a work of its own.
None the less, the splendid effects and scenic design make it worth
seeing.

     There seem to be plans afoot to make these films into a package
which will be sent around the country, in the same manner as various
animation collections.  If you are deeply into SF, or special
effects, or animation, you might want to watch out for the package.
None of the films in it are so special that they demand attention,
but they make an interesting assortment.  The whole runs only about
two hours, and most of the films are under ten minutes, so even the
low points are bearably short and the concept doesn't outlive its
welcome.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 85 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #164
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 164

Today's Topics:

              Books - Allen & Arden & Brust (2 msgs) &
                      Cherryh (2 msgs) & Russell & Robot Stories &
                      Writing About Writing & Sequels,
              Radio - The Adventures of Jack Flanders,
              Television - V

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: TORCH OF HONOR by Roger MacBride Allen
Date: 16 May 85 03:11:10 GMT

               TORCH OF HONOR by Roger MacBride Allen
                         Baen, 1985, $2.95.
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The science fiction war story seems to be making a come-back,
and this is one of the new breed.  The setting is New Finland, which
has been attacked and conquered by the Guardians, a society of
neo-Nazis who fled into space in the 21st Century via the newly
discovered faster-than-light travel.  (Ah, yes, another
Nazis-from-space story!) Our protagonist, operating a survey ship in
the vicinity, finds himself in the middle of the war to recover New
Finland and save the universe (or at least this small portion of it)
from the clutches of the bad guys.

     In general, the book is well-written and the plot moves along
quickly.  My knowledge of military strategy is not such that I can
comment on the accuracy of the maneuvers or the likelihood of the
outcomes, but it *sounds* convincing.  But this book does have a
couple of flaws--one literary, one logical.  The literary flaw (if
one can call it that) is that it is told in the first person.  In a
novel of self-discovery, this works out well.  In a novel of war, it
tends to telegraph the ending--while it's true that the reader
*could* be reading the journal of someone who dies in the last
chapter, it is much more likely that some of the reader's interest
is blunted by the almost certain knowledge that the character
*won't* die.

     The logical flaw is considerably worse.  The main character is
sent to build a receiver at a certain latitude and longitude.  But
when he looks it up, it is in the middle of the ocean.  It turns out
that after the original latitude and longitude lines were drawn, the
best location for the capital city was right on the equivalent of
the International Date Line (180 degrees longitude).  So the
colonists re-drew the lines, but Earth was still working from the
old maps.  The receiver *must* be at this point (because of
balancing orbital and coriolis forces or some such), so the
protagonists go to great lengths to circumvent this problem.  But if
Earth was using old maps, they should have been also, and then the
point that Earth wanted would have been perfectly accessible!  In
fact, the point under water was a totally wrong point!

     In spite of this (and thank goodness it's not the crux of the
novel), TORCH OF HONOR is engrossing, and a prime example of the new
hard SF.  Try it.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 85 15:30 PST
From: Steve Cohen <Steve-Cohen%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Another repeating day story

Well having read everyone else's favorite "the same day happens over
and over again," here is mine.  "One Fine Day" by Leon Arden,
published by W. W. Norton & Co.

                    ******  Mini Spoiler ******

A brief description of the plot: Our hero, Robinson Blake, is the
only one to realize that the same day (a monday of course) keeps
repeating over and over again.  After a couple of experiments Rob
realizes that he still has control of his life and can actually
change his actions during the day, but the next day will still start
exactly the same.

Realizing what an opportunity this presents Rob decides that it is
finally time to seduce his boss' wife (whom he's always had a crush
on).  Each day he tries a new approach based on what did and did not
work the day before, oscillating in on the perfect scenario.

Eventually the reasons for the repetition are explained to Rob, also
the fact that the repetition will soon end.  Rob must now face that
fact that the next time he tries to seduce his boss' wife, it will
be for real.

Mini review: Not for technical sf readers.  Zero science, except for
the basic premise, but a good story none the less.

Steve Cohen

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 10 May 85 22:00:52 GMT

> brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>
> >It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews.
>
> Now, why is that?  It seems to me like you would want to respond
> to bad reviews.  After all, what kind of response can you make to
> good reviews.  "Thank you, thank you."  Mutual back-patting isn't
> that interesting.
>
> Obviously you don't want to get caught up in arguing about your
> books too much -- you'd end up looking juvenile -- but I think a
> fair amount of response to negative reviews is warranted.  The
> author of a book has a very different understanding of the book
> than a reader does, because much of what the author understands
> about the book comes from internalized thoughts, false starts,
> musings, etc., that never show up in print.  Negative reviews
> often point out where the author failed to completely communicate
> his understanding.  Writing to clear up these kinds of
> mis-communications can be helpful for both the author and the
> reader.

The point is that the book ought to stand on its own.  If I was
trying to get something across, it may be of academic interest to
someone to know what I was trying to do, but book either made its
point or it didn't.

Now, it is certainly the case that it might have worked for some
people and not for others, or to differing degrees for different
people, but an explanation from the author saying "No, no, you
missed the point, I WANTED that chapter to be dull and boring to
point out the bordom in our lives," or something like that, is not
especially helpful.  The fact that it took me an entire book to say
what I wanted is a good indication that I'm not going to be able to
do much better in a few column inches.

>> ...The real flaw in the book (I say its a flaw because very few
>>people have picked it up, so I obviously didn't bring it off) was
>>this: Abdial's actions didn't matter.  If there had been no
>>Abdial, things would have proceeded in almost exactly the same
>>way...
>
> Prime example, I think.  I never considered this point until you
> brought it up.  Thinking back upon the book, I guess I can see
> your argument for this.  I don't agree with it.  For this to hold,
> the forces involved should have been so overwhelming that the
> course of events would be unchangable.  This simply isn't so in To
> Reign in Hell.  There are several points in the book where a
> conversation between Yaweh and Satan would have cleared the air.
> Regardless of whether or not you brought the point across in the
> book, it is interesting to hear that this was the point you were
> trying to make.

A prime example of what I meant.  Yes, now you know one of the
themes I was playing with.  I thought this might be interesting or
wouldn't have brought it up.  But it doesn't make the book any
better.  If the reader didn't pick that up on his own,
after-the-fact knowledge, interesting as it may be, won't improve
it.

> Now, the question is: Did you start out with this as your "point"
> or did it develop during the course of writing the story?
>
>     Scott R. Turner

I don't honestly know.  There were a number of things I wanted to
play with.  Depending on when you ask and the phase of the moon, I
will probably say different ones were the "point."  I try to play
fair with my readers, however.  What I mean is, I do my best to let
the characters behave as they will, rather than using them as
mouthpieces for points I want to make.  There are two advantages to
this: one, it is, I think, more honest.  Two, it allows me, after
the fact, to go, "Oh, that's an interesting idea.  I wonder if I
believe it."

I hope this answered your question.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 13 May 85 20:31:43 GMT

> I would have said that Abdiel was driven (at the beginning) by
> ambition rather than fear, and kept that motivation all the way
> until he was discovered by all and sundry to have invented
> evil.

Maybe.  It seems to me that a readers opinion on something like this
is at least as legitimate as the authors.  But I was playing with an
idea taken from Will Shetterly's CATS HAVE NO LORD.  He had a
character (Lord Noring) who became an excellent swordsman, and was
forced into courageous actions, because of his basic fear.  I turned
that around with Abdiel.  His actions (to me, at least) were
motivated by wanting to be in a position where he could avoid direct
battle with the flux.  He schemed to take over Satan's role so he
could have a decision-making position, which led to, as you put it,
the invention of evil.

> Also, wouldn't you say that Mephistopheles (my favorite character,
> I think) knew even more about what was going on than Lilith?

Yes, but, until nearly the end, he refused to take a side other than
that of personal friendship, which doesn't go very far in a
revolutionary situation.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Subject: 1 question
Date: 13 May 85 14:07:02 GMT

What other books relate to Downbelow Station? I'm just about done with
that one and find myself ready for more.

Thanks in advance......................db

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Eric Frank Russel & 1 question
Date: 14 May 85 06:26:29 GMT

> And now the question: What other books relate to Downbelow
> Station?

According to Cherryh, all of her SF (except the Gate series) is all
related, but you might want to try "Merchanter's Luck".

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Subject: Eric Frank Russel
Date: 13 May 85 14:07:02 GMT

 Seeing as how Eric Frank Russell has been mentioned I thought I'd 
throw in my pitch for one of his better books, Men, Martians and 
Machines. It's been years since I read it but if you can find it read
it.

db

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 May 85 11:25:47-PDT
From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Request for stories

A friend of mine is interested in stories with robots as the main
character.  She loved _I ROBOT_ by Asimov. Does anyone have
suggestions for good stories?  Thanks in advance!

Aline Norris Baeck
SRI, Int'l
Menlo Park, CA
Arpanet address: Norris@sri-ai

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Writing about writing
Date: 20 May 85 04:41:10 GMT

> I would also like to point out, however, that in between the
> stories [in UNICORN VARIATIONS] he makes comments on writing, and
> what he learned, and how to do it, etc.  This is also true of his
> previous collection, THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMALOT.  For anyone
> with an interest in writing, fiction writing in particular, these
> two books are a must.
>       -SKZB

Good point, and one I neglected in my review of UNICORN VARIATIONS.
This raises an interesting point: What are good books to read to
learn about writing?

Specifically, what books have forewords, afterwords, junk between
the stories, etc., that give insight into writing as an activity?
May I start this discussion off with some examples?  (Why, thank you
very much!)

Zelazny's THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT and UNICORN VARIATIONS are
particularly good, as Zelazny has written a *lot* of stories, long
and short, and mentions how the short effects the long.

Harlan Ellison's STRANGE WINE and ALL THE LIES THAT ARE MY LIFE.
His earlier collections talk about writing in them, too, but not as
well.  The introductions in the above two books are better than
99.44% of the fiction I've read.  Alas, STALKING THE NIGHTMARE has a
fictionalized introduction from Ellison's Middle Messianic Period.
There are some good "Tales from the Real World", though, and some of
Ellison's fiction, which is fantastic or not, depending on some
quirk of the reader's mind.

Joe Haldeman's INFINITE DREAMS, with comments as detailed as
Zelazny's, but concentrating less on effects on novels and more on
the short stuff itself.

Your turn.

        -Paul S. R. Chisholm
        ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
        ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc
        ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is bits)
Subject: Re: In re: J. Hawthorne's series flame
Date: 14 May 85 16:54:06 GMT

Again, you're making a big mistake to blame the author for not
telling you.

It makes more sense to be aggravated at the publisher--they bought
it, they probably know whether or not it even has a sequel in
manuscript, and they didn't tell you when *they* presented it to
you.

What are you going to do if the book does say "to be continued", and
you're afraid the rest will never come out?  Not buy it?  Well, then
you've certainly done your part to bring about the future you
feared.

------------------------------

From: aecom!schwartz@topaz.arpa (Yosef Klavan)
Subject: Jack Flanders ????
Date: 16 May 85 01:27:42 GMT

About 2 years ago, I heard on National Public Radio, a really
terrific sci-fi, sci-fantasy, radio production called 'The
Adventures of Jack Flanders', or 'The 4rth Tower of Indvernez :
Adventures of Jack Flanders'.

It was a really terrific show, and NPR has not been of any help. Any
info.  on this, name of a book it came from, or anything.

Thanks in advance.

Yosef Klavan
UUCP  ...{philabs|cucard|pegasus|rocky2}!aecom!klavan or schwartz

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Wed, 15 May 85 20:59:25 -0200
Subject: Re: request for info on V
Cc: zstamir%weizmann.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA

> Which brings me to why I wrote this little letter.  I missed the
> first episode of V, and have no idea who Elizabeth is.... or her
> role as the Star Child Although she is adorable and nice to see
> each week, I would certainly like to know what's the point of her
> being so central to the story.

Had this guy seen the first episode, it wouldn't have made a bit of
difference. Those in charge of Israel's single TV station
(government, of course) are broadcasting the V soap, which continues
where the mini-series left off, but WITHOUT first broadcasting the
mini-series.  Well, look at it from their point of view: they were
so magnanimous in giving us an SF show; if they also allowed us to
understand what's going on, we might start taking things like that
for granted!

Anyway, some Israelis (including myself) are lucky enough to have
antennas with the ability to receive Jordan TV; the mini-series was
broadcast on Jordan TV a few months ago. They certainly demonstrated
better judgment; I kind of enjoyed the mini-series, but couldn't
stand more than three episodes of the soap.

> Anyway, as you can see from my running off at the keyboard, you'd
> say that Israel isn't starving for Sci Fi TV, just GOOD SCI FI,
> which considering the amount of good SCI FI TV there is is the
> same boat all of you in the STates face.

As an Israeli who lived for a while in the states, I can tell anyone
who can watch Dr. Who, or Twilight Zone re-runs (in Israel we only
got the movie) - we in Israel are definitely NOT in the same boat
with you.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 85 0948-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #166
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 166

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Baldwin & Zelazny,
                     Miscellaneous - Criticizing (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz.arpa (sonntag)
Subject: HELMSMAN by Bill Baldwin (contains very mild spoilers)
Date: 16 May 85 17:59:40 GMT

    Usually I end up sticking to a long list of authors whose works
I am familiar with; occasionally, however, a cover blurb or
something will pique my interest, and I'll try someone new.
Sometimes I'm very disappointed, sometimes not.  I have this rather
large weak spot for fast-paced space opera, and HELMSMAN looked like
one of those, so I tried it.
    This was a book that I had a *lot* of trouble putting down.  The
plot was pretty simplistic, but true space opera aficionados are
always ready to forgive that.  Baldwin does a good job of developing
a coherent galaxy-spanning technology for his hero to use in
emerging triumphant from one hopeless situation after another.
Baldwin's descriptions of space battles are excellent too.  The
requisite subplot where the hero chases after the woman of his
dreams is there too, and contains some very interesting twists.  All
in all, I found this book incredibly entertaining.
    Since then, I looked for more of him in the local B Dalton, and
found nothing. (not even HELMSMAN) Does anyone out there know of
anything else he's written?

Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j

------------------------------

Date: 14-May-1985 1438
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: The Possibly Proper Death Litany (aka, apparently, "the
Subject: Agnostics Prayer")

Brett Slocum asked about "the agnostics prayer" -- well, the correct
name is actually "The Possibly Proper Death Litany", and it does
indeed come from Zelazny's Creatures of Light And Darkness (an
excellent book). That prayer, and several other items from the lips
of Madrak the Preacher appealed to me, and after searching the novel
several times to find them, I long since gave in and copied them
down ... so, here they are:

                    The Possibly Proper Death Litany

(deleted)

These three quotes taken (regrettably without permission) from the
sayings of Madrak the Preacher, a character in Roger Zelazny's
Creatures of Light And Darkness.

        /dave
Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062
orac::butenhof
butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 03:09:04-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: SF film criticism

> From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
>   After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to
> say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF
> movies.  Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while
> most comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few
> good, supporting statements are made.

        I disagree. Mark Leeper and Peter Reiher do post very fair,
very in-depth reviews to movies. Both of them point out the flaws
*and* the virtues in each film they review. Mark especially
occasionally rips apart one aspect of the film, and yet give it a
recommendation for something else that the film does right. I'd like
to post more reviews myself, but I haven't got the time to do what I
already do.

> Now you must remember that writing allows much more freedom of
> expression than does movie making.  I feel that given the
> restrictions of time, money, available actors (with talent) and
> politics (which eventually enter any large project) what we see is
> not too bad....

Again I disagree. As they say, "A picture is worth a thousand
words". A *truly talented* film maker can do a lot with very little
(or even a lot).  There are those who may disagree on the following
point (I know one --- Hi, DDB! --- who does), but I find Kubrick's A
CLOCKWORK ORANGE so far superior to Burgess's original novel it
isn't funny. The trouble is that the truly talented film makers
generally don't work within the sf/fantasy field. As much as I wish
it were otherwise, very few sf films are worthy of mentioning in the
same breath as those of the mainstream.

>    My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not
> putting its heart and soul into SF.  No matter what they try, it
> gets torn apart by SF 'fans'.  Nothing is good enough, nothing is
> acceptable.  Well I enjoy seeing a new SF movie, if it is a
> serious attempt to do well, even if it falls short.  We see *so*
> little of it.  WIZARDS was enjoyable, LotR was entertaining, and
> 2010 was far better than watching the The Love Boat.

Hell, getting poked in the eye with a sharp stick is better than
watching THE LOVE BOAT. I enjoy sf/fantasy films, too, even when
they fall short.  I find many sf films disappointing, yet still
enjoyable. I enjoyed both WIZARDS and LOTR up to a point, but if I
were to review them, I wouldn't hesitate to point out their flaws.
LADYHAWKE has recently been getting some good notice in here, and
while I enjoyed the film quite a bit, I found a number of things
about it that irritated the hell out of me. I'd still recommend it,
though.
        The trouble is that most sf film makers *aren't* putting
their heart and soul into sf. They see that sf films are hot, so
they make an sf film.  It's got little to do with whether they like
or even care about sf or not.

>   I'm not saying films shouldn't be criticized.  If they weren't
> nothing would improve.  But the impression from this digest is,
> "Nothing is good enough for us. You do your best and we'll pick it
> to death somehow."  Many of the criticisms I've seen are really
> ridiculous. If I was a movie producer and read this digest, I
> wouldn't even attempt SF.  I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a
> T-shirt, and be assured to make money without anyone noticing the
> plot (or lack of).

In some cases, the film maker *did* get Jacqueline Bisset, put her
in a T-shirt, and made an sf film. Maybe not Bissett in particular,
but take a look at SATURN 3 --- Kirk Douglas and Farrah Fawcett do a
nude scene, and the movie hasn't got a plot worth mentioning.

The big trouble with Hollywood (and this doesn't apply to just sf
films) is that there are few people there with a creative bone in
their bodies.  Ninety percent of what we get is an imitation of
something that was a success. These schlockmeisters see that some
film is successful, so they try to give us more of the same thing.
The trouble is that they often guess wrong about what it is that
made the successful film a success.  Take a look at my favorite
example. It never occurred to anyone that the reason Carpenter's
HALLOWEEN was a success was because of its well- crafted atmosphere
of suspense. Carpenter wasn't completely original --- he stole from
Hitchcock --- but at least he saw what it was that made Hitch the
master that he was, and tried to generate that same effect.
Unfortunately, other film makers saw HALLOWEEN's success and figured
that what made it so popular was that it had a maniac stalking
half-naked high school girls. Voila! The market is flooded with
movies about maniacs stalking half-naked high-school girls.
        And it's only the fans that seem to have realized that the
reason STAR WARS and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK turned out so well was
because Lucas and Spielberg wanted to make movies that *they* wanted
to see, not just to turn a fast buck.

SF books are better than sf movies in general because those people
who write sf and who publish sf are interested in sf. This is not
generally true of those who make sf films. SF films are often
failures because Hollywood has a skewed idea about what sf *is*. If
you take a look at sf novels written by mainstream writers, you'll
often find the same problem. SF books are done by folks who care
about sf; sf films are done by those who don't care about sf.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics
Date: 12 May 85 02:15:21 GMT

>>  I know I am not the only person that this is aimed at, but I am
>>probably one.
>
>You're right...but I do consider your reviews to be more accurate
>and fair than most.  They seem to show some thought and analysis
>behind them, rather than just a first impression being popped out.

Thank you.  As for your statements about the endless arguments about
technical details, I find them frustrating at times.  Some technical
details about space, for example, are fairly well established.
Others are still in some doubt.  It is clear that you should not
hear the spacecraft go by in STAR WARS, but as to whether
aero-braking would work in Jupiter's atmosphere, I suspect that
nobody is really certain at this point.  There may be technical
problems with it.  It is still a new idea.  I don't think that it is
really necessary to require science fiction film makers to be right
on top of the latest technology.  If they make a film consistent
with science as she was understood five years earlier, that is fine
with me.  I have little patience for the people who think that 2010
was technically all fouled up, but who think that Thomas Disch's ON
WINGS OF SONG -- in which people fly by singing -- is acceptable as
science fiction.  Oddly enough, I often think that cinematic science
fiction must meet harsher standards than its literary counterpart.

>All of this has brought up another item of interest.  When a movie
>is adapted from a book, how obligated is the movie to follow the
>story?  With the kinds of restrictions I mentioned in my last
>message, a direct correlation of story elements is usually
>impossible.  What if the author of the screenplay believes the
>story can be improved with some plot (or character) changes?
>Should it be done?  How much?

A film maker's first loyalty should be to make a good film.  His
second should be to be faithful to the source where it does not come
into conflict with the first.  If it does come into conflict in any
but minor ways, perhaps the source material for the film was poorly
chosen.  More than likely, the source was chosen for its box-office
appeal, not because it would make a good film.  Now rare if the film
that breaks this rule.  VICTOR FRANKENSTEIN/TERROR OF FRANKENSTEIN,
for example is a dull film.  It is only notable because it is the
only Frankenstein film that is faithful to the book.  But the book
was not written to make a good film and it is the wrong book to
choose if you really are concerned about being faithful to the
source.  BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN is a much better film.

Actually this is all academic.  A film makers first loyalty is to
his backers.  He has to make a film that people want to see and that
does not cost too much too make.  That is the reason for most
revisions.  (Unless you have a David Lynch or a Ken Russell.  They
want to throw in weird images in the name of art.  Funny how in this
field, directing films, the best people are the craftsmen, not the
artists.  But then that probably reflects my own prejudices.)  Also,
occasionally the film maker wants to make a faithful adaptation but
does not have the rights to the story.  Sound far-fetched?  They are
adapting the film but don't have the rights to do the story?  Ian
Fleming sold only a few of his novels to the films but he sold all
of the titles.  That is why the James Bond films soured after
THUNDERBALL.

Little of this really answers your question, I know.  I guess I
would just repeat that first and foremost a film should be enjoyable
and then be as close to its sources as possible.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet...
Date: 14 May 85 17:17:40 GMT

> O.K. out of the closet and at 'em.
>
> I Liked 2010.
>
> And I didn't NOTICE any horrendous mistakes.

  You didn't???  Well, how about this: turning Jupiter into a star
means that it will never be dark on Earth, which (according to the
speech at the end) means that there won't be any more wars (since
obviously all wars arise directly out of fear of the dark?).  I find
that pretty horrendous, mistake- wise.  Also, the obelisk-shaped
thingies were not in any way of 1X4X9 proportion, and why was that
such a big deal?  Etc., etc., etc.

> And I never expected it to be up to 2001.  What could be?
> [<==rhetorical]
>
> Now, back in the closet.

   GOOD!
--Mr. Blore, the DJ who would not die
  . . .udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: SF vs. The SCREEN
Date: 9 May 85 22:18:19 GMT

DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA write:
>   After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to
>say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies.
>Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most
>comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few good,
>supporting statements are made.
>
>    My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not
>putting its heart and soul into SF.  No matter what they try, it
>gets torn apart by SF 'fans'.  Nothing is good enough, nothing is
>acceptable.
>
>   I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the
>clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the
>creative and original ideas, the novel approaches.
>
>    Comments, anyone?

Yup.  Don't hold your breath.

NOBODY yet realizes that SF loses in television or movie format.
The best SF simply cannot be visual; it depends on the imagination,
and the visual media remove too much of the imagination.  Hence, we
get V and Battlestar Galactica on TV, and poorly adapted DUNEs on
the big screen.  (Star Trek almost got past this one; Dr. Who just
about does, thanks to the fact that its SFX budget is too low to
render a good imagination unnecessary.)

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 85 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #165
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 165

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Brust & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   Story Request Answered Finally &
                   The Faces of Science Fiction,
           Films - The Creeping Horror & 
                   The Dungeonmaster (3 msgs) &
                   Rocky Horror Picture Show

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14-May-1985 1441
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: Bio Of a Space Tyrant, Vol 3: Politician

I also just finished the new Bio Of a Space Tyrant. For the most
part, I agree with richardl@ucbmiro.berkeley (gee, it's really so
much nicer to have real names to work with).

Specifically, the parallels were overdone. I did not appreciate the
train much at all (although the scenes built around it were well
done), and I felt he was really pushing his justifications a bit
far, just to make Hope's campaign look like an old fashioned
back-home whistle-stop tour. I also wasn't too crazy about the
self-sacrifice move, however it is consistent.  After all, it's not
like we have J. Random Schmoe with girls chasing him about trying to
kill themselves to save him; we all know that's one of the side
effects of Hope's talent (although I could point out a few weak
points in that, I won't bother).

The two plots were woven together fairly well, and Piers did a good
job of keeping the suspense up until the end -- it came together
credibly and explosively.  Which reminds me, did anybody still
wonder where Hopie came from by the end? He seemed to expect that
there would be lingering mystery (certainly Hope hadn't figured it
out), but I was fairly sure about 2 pages after she showed up and
virtually certain long before the end ...

While the U.S./U.S.S.R.  parallel was somewhat overdone, again the
scenes themselves were done well enough -- I liked the enemy
Captains playing pool and secretly teaching each other their native
languages, and the nice byplay that led to later in the negotiations
over the "KAL" incident.

Over all, I think it reads about as well as the first two. While I
have some lingering dissatisfaction, I enjoyed it enough to wait
more or less eagerly for the next.  As with the Incarnations of
Immortality (arrggh! When are those money-grubbing publishers gonna
put out Bearing An Hourglass in paperback, already?), I'll be
touring bookstores frequently to check up on the next one ...

        /dave

Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062
orac::butenhof
butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER]
Date: 13 May 85 20:11:26 GMT

> Good.  It looked frighteningly like a sequel was pending, probably
> a rewrite of Genesis.
>
> As for offending anyone, I'm offended, but let me make clear the
> reasons.  The book clearly intends to be a retelling of the
> pre-creation mythos which developed in medieval Europe from some
> Jewish and Gnostic traditions.  This mythos was adapted by Milton
> when he wrote Paradise Lost.
>
> Now, the things that offend: First, it will offend any orthodox
> Jew because the Name of God is not supposed to be written
> casually, and never ever is it supposed to be destroyed (treated
> as trash).  Those names have meanings and they can add to the
> cognitive dissonance.  "Satan" means "adversary" for instance.

Right.  I thought seriously about changing some of the names that
had meanings--but ALL of the names have meanings.  Mephistopheles,
for instance, means "dark angel," or "black angel" or something like
that.  There was just no future in it.  But yes, I knew some people
would be offended, but it seems just as bad to me to avoid writing
something so as not to offend people as to set out attempting to
offend people.

> What he admits to Beelzebub, and what the rest of the angels do
> not grasp, is that the story which was concocted with Abdiel's
> collaboration was a true one as far as it went; that Satan was
> explicitly created BY Y*hw*h as were the others.  That was the
> political linchpin on which everyone else organized around Satan,
> that and the creation of Yeshua.  The "untruth" is that there was
> no planned, deliberated, careful creation of ANYTHING (according
> to your own descriptive interludes) until the existance of an area
> large enough to live in and (sort of) relax in had been
> established.  Y*hw*h did not believe this to be the case; he
> accepted this dishonesty as necessary and followed through with
> it.  God as Richard Nixon.  Since this theme predominates among
> the ancient and current Gnostic philosophies, and it is just too
> easy to do, I got the idea that this was a cheap shot.

In the early stages of Stalin's rule, before the Moscow trials, he
was forced into various economic decisions.  Rather than saying, "We
have been forced to do this bad thing," he said, "We are doing this
because it is good."  It was this, as much as anything else, that
led to the "necessity" of the Moscow trials and the murder of a
whole generation of Bolsheviks, the betrayal of the Spanish, etc.
Yet his DECISIONS were necessary, not wrong.  Satan was unhappy
about angels being coerced.  Toward the end of the book he admits
that the coercion WAS justified and that he was wrong, but he still
cannot accept Yaweh's having lied about it.

>>I never did buy that anyone with Satan's intellegence could have
>>revolted against an omnipotant God.  So, why did it happen?  I
>>think there are as many holes in my approach as in the traditional
>>one, but they are different holes.  However, I don't see where it
>>was "cheap."  I went over and over that manuscript, doing my best
>>to make sure there were no cheap shots, or any actions motivated
>>by stupidity.
>
> If Y*hw*h has the power to OBSERVE (and probably to communicate)
> at a distance, why would he believe Abdiel rather than using his
> own power to investigate the claim?

This power is reduced almost to the point of non-existence by the
lack of flux between waves.  Remember how surprised he is that he is
able to watch the battle at the Southern Hold?  He hadn't expected
to be able to use this ability.  The reason that he could is the
leak created by Michael's sword.  This is also the reason Raphael is
able to heal Harut.

> Beelzebub was pretty much loyalty incarnate, hence the doggy form;

Well I'll be...You know, I think you're right.  I never thought of
that.  Hmmm.  Unless it was just the reverse.  I never did know why
I made him a dog (someone has suggested "Lord of the Flies").  Thank
you.  I like that.

                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 85 01:55:23 EDT
From: Phyllis.Lewis@CMU-SEI
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

>What is it that everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS?

        Well... To those of you who don't like Heinlein's
government, the way I read the story, I saw this form of "fascism"
as just a possibility -- mere speculation as to what could happen.
After all, isn't that what separates _Science Fiction_ from
"mainstream" literature?

        In fact, by way of an aside, Algis Budrys, in the latest
_Fantasy & Science Fiction_, which of course is 400km from my
keyboard, quotes a founding father of the genre as preferring the
title "speculative fiction."  So if we don't propose these
alternatives, what do we have?  Nothing more than mainstream
literature with glittering bells and whistles...
                                                ...k
P.S.   No, I'm pretty sure it                  (Kevin Lewis,
      wasn't Campbell...                        borrowing an
                                                account...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 May 85 04:17:31-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein

I certainly don't agree with the premises of STARSHIP TROOPER, and I
refuse to recommend it to people without making them promise to read
Haldeman's Forever War.  But critics should note that Heinlein
himself states that THESE ARE NOT NECESSARILY HIS VIEWS (EXPANDED
UNIVERSE, New York, Ace Books, 1980, page I forget and my copy is in
another state).  In fact, he continues, he was rather surprised at
all the furor the book created, and was quite surprised when the
book won an award.

Yes, Heinlein can be infuriating, is often wrong, and holds views on
the military that conflict with my own.  But at least the man is
willing to think, including reexamining his own views.  See the
passage in FRIDAY where Janet is talking to her husbands on the
subject of enlisting in the army, on Red Thursday.  Granted, the
book is still quite pro-military, but Heinlein himself was a career
military officer until retired for medical reasons.  (He was also a
peacetime officer as opposed to Haldeman, which may have something
to do with his opinions.)

Like, flame off, folks.

--Rob <sra@mit-xx.arpa>

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Yet another story request. And the winner is...
Date: 15 May 85 18:55:32 GMT

Thank you to all who responded to my story request.

The story is indeed "The Space Willies" in an ACE double with "Six
Worlds Yonder", both by Eric Frank Russell.

Armed with information from this group, I found a copy at my local
used SF bookstore.  Amazingly, it cost only 75 cents!

I really appreciate this.  I have been wondering about this for
years, and finally have the answer.  By the way, from the publishing
info, I must have read this at the age of 10.

I am looking forward to spending some time this weekend rereading
it.

         Thanks again.  The net is great!

                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: The Faces of Science Fiction
Date: 15 May 85 19:04:50 GMT

I, too, recently got a copy of THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION by Patti
Perret ($11.95, Bluejay Books, c1984), and I'll gladly second Tom
Crawford's recommendation.  It's true that not every one of your
favorite writers will be included in the collection, but Perret
managed to find most of mine, including Gene Wolfe (who also wrote
the introduction), Kate Wilhelm & Damon Knight, R A Lafferty,
Theodore Sturgeon, Roger Zelazny, Alice Sheldon (aka James Tiptree,
Jr.), George Alec Effinger, Tom Disch and many others.  Notable
omissions are Robert A Heinlein, Robert Sheckley, Jack Vance, Harlan
Ellison, and Stephen King in the U S, and almost no one from across
the pond appears to have been represented -- no photos of Clarke,
Brunner, Aldiss, Priest, Ballard, etc.  Many of the pictures are
amazingly good and all are competent; and many of the authors' notes
are a joy to read.

Don't miss Disch's 'Ode to a Toaster',

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: aecom!schwartz@topaz.arpa (Yosef Klavan)
Subject: Creeping Horror or Creeping Terror
Date: 14 May 85 23:18:06 GMT

Hi,

A while back, maybe in the early 50's, an extremely Ultra-Low Tech
S.F.  movie was made, called either 'The Creeping Horror', or 'The
Creeping Terror'.  The basic gist of the movie was an alien who came
to Earth to destroy humanity. I would greatly appreciate any info on
this movie.

Has anybody out there in NETLAND ever heard of this infamous
classic??  Thank you in advance.

REGARDS,
Yosef Klavan
UUCP    .....{cucard|philabs|pegasus|rocky2}!aecom!klavan

------------------------------

From: hyper!dean@topaz.arpa (Dean Gahlon)
Subject: Re: the Dungeon Master
Date: 14 May 85 23:34:57 GMT

> pps-Looking at the ad for the Dungeon Master, I see a small
> inclusion that states 'This motion picture is not related in any
> manner to the TSR, Inc.  game entitled "Dungeons and Dragons" or
> any characters therein.'  They wouldn't be trying to cash in on
> D&D's fame, would they?  Naaaah.

Actually, that notice was probably prompted by TSR's lawyers trying
to ensure that nobody makes improper use of their copyright.

------------------------------

From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (Praiser of Bob)
Subject: Re: the Dungeon Master
Date: 14 May 85 20:42:23 GMT

trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan) writes:
>If I had to rate this film, I wouldn't.  It was definitely a film
>of the 'so-bad-it's-good' genre, but I would recommend that if you
>want to see this film, go to a matinee.  You won't feel too
>cheated.

Yes. In fact, that's why I went to see it.

>ps-if you do go to see it, also look for the similarities certain
>scenes have with the scenes of other major sf films.  One from the
>Trek III stands out in my mind right now...

Don't forget "DragonSlayer," "The Road Warrior", "Prisoners of the
Lost Universe" (or some such title, also so-bad-it's-good), and
others.  I got the impression that the skits were chosen
specifically so they could re-use sets from old SF movies.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 85 08:19 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: The DungeonMaster

It seems no one that actually stayed through the entire showing of
_The DungeonMaster_ had the tenacity to read the credits too.  I,
however, wanted to be sure that I knew who was to blame for this
horrid, but humorous, trash.  Luckily I recognized no one and have
since forgotten all the names, but I do remember one thing that
others noticed but hadn't observed.  The movie was written in 7
parts.  That accounts for the monsterous discontinuities, but not
very well.  Our theory here is that someone graduated from a college
class and this was their term project.  Maybe it was High School.
Luckily, it only cost me 62.5 cents to see it at a double feature.

At any rate, the movie sucked, but was very funny.  I rank it up
there with John Boy and the Seven Samurai, or was it _Battle Beyond
the Stars_?  I forget.  It was another great movie though.  Complete
with John Saxon as the evil overlord, John Boy as the peaceful
farmer sent to round up seven champions to save his planet.  Sound
familiar yet?  It included the Man from Uncle (Bob Vaughn) and Cybil
Danning as a valkyrie woman with an amazing bra (it looked like it
had fingers to me).  I also loved the Bullwinkle space ship.  I've
never seen a ship with antlers before.  (Fascinating, Captain.)

*** Spoiler? ***
And, of course, the good guys win.

Synopsis:
I recommend both of these films as a good belly laugh, but not for
more than a dollar.  Wait for them, they'll be on TV.  They are just
it's speed.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 May 85 21:15:05-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show

Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits from
this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits of it but
not it all and as its now been released over here on video, I'd like
to try and jog my memory.

Also the video soundtrack seems to be mono yet the album soundtrack
is, I believe, stereo. Does the the 35mm cinema release have a
stereo soundtrack ?

                Alan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 85 1025-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #167
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 18 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 167

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 5 May 85 00:39:52-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 12

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
trying to get to Trufandom.]
                           Chapter Twelve
                  In which Jophan finds a Friend.

     It took Jophan a much shorter time to leave the City of Serious
Constructivism then it had to enter it, and he was soon in the
suburbs again.  Here there were no advertising hoardings, club
buildings or hucksters' settlements.  Instead, the district seemed
to be an exclusive residential area, entirely composed of enormous
wooded estates surrounded by high walls.  There seemed to be a
limitless number of them, and as the evening wore on, Jophan became
very tired.  The walls were too high to be climbed, and the gates
were all locked, so that try as he might he could find no way to get
off the road to make camp for the night.

     At last he realized that he could go no further, and that he
must spend the night as best he could by the side of the road.
Huddling up against the wall near one of the entrance gates, he
wrapped his tattered garments about him and made himself as
comfortable as the hard surface would allow.

     Some time later he was awakened from a fitful sleep by a great
blaze of light in his eyes.  In his dazed condition it was a few
seconds before he realized that he was staring into the headlights
of a huge motorcar which had evidently approached from the direction
of Trufandom, and was now halted before the entrance gates.  As
Jophan watched, the driver got out and unlocked the gates.  As he
was walking back to his car Jophan called weakly to him.  The driver
looked round, startled, and then, perceiving Jophan lying against
the wall, came over to him.

     "Hello, young fellow," he said.  "Who are you, and what are you
doing here?"

     So faint was Jophan with exhaustion that he could scarcely
speak.  "...Jophan," he murmured, "Trufandom...Magic
Mimeograph...Perfect Fanzine."

     "Ah, yes," said the stranger understandingly.  "You have come a
long way and you have a long way to go.  You will be the better off
after a good meal and a night's rest."

     He picked Jophan up and carried his limp body to the car.
Then, stopping only to relock the gate behind him, he drove at high
speed up the long entrance drive.

     Jophan could not see much of the house in the darkness, but the
bedroom to which he was carried was large and luxuriously furnished,
and the meal which he was served was tastefully cooked and
sumptuously served.  Feeling comfortable and safe for the first time
since he had embarked on his journey, Jophan fell into a deep sleep.

     Next morning he awoke late and found his way down to the
breakfast room.  His host had evidently breakfasted, and sat before
a cheerful fire with a writing machine on his knees.  As Jophan
entered he put the machine down and rose to greet him.

     "Good morning, Jophan," he said.  "Let me introduce myself.  My
name is Profan . . . you may have heard of me?"

     "I have, indeed."  said Jophan, awed, for before him stood the
author of many of the books telling of faraway places and other
times which he had read during his life in Mundane -- a life which
already seemed unreal to him.

     He attempted to express his admiration and gratitude, but
Profan waved the latter aside and motioned him toward the laden
breakfast table.

     When Jophan had finished breakfast and joined his host beside
the fire he again attempted to express his thanks, but the other
would hear none of it.  "It is nothing," he said.  "I am glad to be
able to help any pilgrim on his way to Trufandom.  As long," he
added wryly, "as they do not descend on me in too great numbers."

     This was the first resident of Fandom Jophan had encountered
who had really encouraged him in his quest, and it put him in good
heart.

     "Am I then," he asked, "getting near to Trufandom?"

     "You have done about half the journey," said Profan, "but since
you have come this far I have no doubt you will complete it.  I wish
I could take you there, but as you know, each Neofan must make his
way by his own unaided strength."

     "But you know the way, then?"  asked Jophan eagerly.

     "Indeed, yes," said the Profan.  "I go there for a visit at
least once a year.  This, as you must know, is a colony for those
who wish, and can afford, to travel frequently to both Trufandom and
Mundane, and who have accordingly settled here, midway between the
two places.  Some of us, indeed, came here from Trufandom, for
occasionally it happens that a True Fan will forsake the high and
dedicated life of Trufandom for our more worldly community.  They
make their choice, as it were, between the Sacred and the Profan."
He smiled at his little joke, and Jophan laughed politely.

     "I will tell you all I can about your route," continued Profan,
"but I should first warn you that any advice I give you will be of
no avail unless you continue to exercise the courage and discretion
which have brought you so far, and unless you keep your Shield
bright and shining.  For you have many dreadful periods yet to
face."

     "I shall remember," said Jophan.

     "Well," said Profan, "the first of these perils is the Desert
of Indifference, which begins at the borders of this community and
stretches for a good distance unbroken save by an occasional oasis.
To carry enough food and water to cross this vast expanse is beyond
the powers of any Neofan, so that you must enlist the aid of native
porters from the strange tribe that dwells on the fringes of the
desert.  On the far side of the desert is a huge rocky defile, known
as the the Canyon of Criticism, through which lies the only path to
the plateau above where stands the Tower of Trufandom.  Further I
cannot help you, for the more subtle temptations and perils of the
last stages of the journey assume a different form for each Neofan."

     "Is that all?"  asked Jophan.

     "All?"  said Profan, amused.  "I admire your spirit.  But alas,
it is not.  On each side of your path, far away but always
accessible, are the green, enticing regions known as the Glades of
Gafia.  Perpetually you will be pursued by the insidious temptation
to turn aside and rest awhile there.  But, should you do so, there
is a danger you will be unable to face the effort of resuming your
journey, or that, roaming forgetfully though the beckoning glades,
you will find yourself back in Mundane.  Far better to proceed with
moderation so that you will not be driven to the Glades to
recuperate from too-strenuous effort.

     Profan went on to give Jophan much other helpful advice, to
which Jophan listened respectfully.  The he thanked his host again
and prepared to resume his journey.  Profan went with him to the
gate to wish him luck, and then stood watching Jophan march sturdily
down the road.  Once Jophan looked back to wave a final goodbye.  He
fancied that he detected in the other's face an emotion which, in
the case of one less fortunately situated, he would have taken to be
envy.  But this cannot have been so, any more than the raising of
Profan's hand to his eye can have been to wipe away an involuntary
tear of regret.

                          [To be continued.]

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 May 85 00:09:57-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 13

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
on his way to Trufandom.]
                          Chapter Thirteen
              In which Jophan recruits Native Bearers.

     Much refreshed by Profan's hospitality, Jophan stepped out
briskly, and by noon had left the region of great estates far
behind.  He was now in open country again, a region of dry scrubland
interspersed with bare sandy patches which became more frequent as
he journeyed on.

     As the country became more desolate he kept an anxious eye open
for the tribesmen whom Profan mentioned.  Then, as he was on the
point of turning back to look more carefully, he espied a faint
column of smoke rising into the still air from some distance to his
left.  Threading his way through the scrub in that direction he was
greatly relieved to come upon a group of tents which he knew must be
a village of the strange natives.

     The encampment contained several dozen of the Subrs, as Profan
had said they were called, all sitting perfectly still on the ground
before their tents and staring blankly into the distance.  They
seemed to be a sturdy and honest race, but with a strangely
impassive cast of countenance, and their faces showed no sign of
emotion when Jophan made his appearance.  Nevertheless, he strode
into the center of the village and greeted them cheerily, expecting
that they would spring to their feet and cluster around him.  But
instead they continued to ignore his presence completely.
Surprised, Jophan raised his voice and greeted them again,
announcing his name and the purpose of his visit.  But still the
strange people seemed unconscious of his existence.  Indeed he would
have judged them to be both blind and deaf had he not noticed one of
them raise his eyebrows slightly when Jophan had finished speaking.
Incensed at their apathy he lost his temper and flew into a rage,
jumping up and down and waving his arms to attract their attention,
and then launching into a loud and impassioned discourse, describing
in detail the importance of his visit and the impossibility of
fulfilling it without their help.  At this a few Subrs turned their
eyes curiously in his direction, but none of them showed the
slightest sign of answering his call.

     In desperation Jophan went up to the native who had appeared to
be the first to notice him, and pleaded with him for an explanation
of the tribe's reluctance to cooperate.

     The Subr looked indifferently at him and spoke.

     "Many Neofen come," he grunted.  "Many seek help.  Many leave
us in desert, our help wasted.  You show difference."

     For a moment Jophan could not understand what he meant, and
then he realized he was being called upon to demonstrate that he had
the necessary stamina and strength of will to cross the desert.
Resignedly, he began to run round and round the encampment.

     The afternoon wore on, and Jophan continued to run round the
encampment, watched impassively by the Subrs.  Every now and then he
would stop and plead with them again, and each time they evinced a
little more interest.

     Finally one of them rose and nodded to Jophan.  Still without a
word he picked up a skin water-bottle, and a package of food and
stood waiting.  His example was followed by several others until a
small group had collected at Jophan's side.  He thanked them
gratefully, and the small expedition started off into the desert.

                            [To be continued.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 85 1031-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #168
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 18 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 168

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 May 85 00:10:32-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 14

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
in search of Trufandom.]
                          Chapter Fourteen
     In which Jophan starts across the Desert of Indifference.

     As they progressed ever farther into the wilderness the hot sun
and scorching sand began to take their toll of Jophan's strength,
and he realized more fully the magnitude of the task before him.  He
also came to appreciate the virtues of native porters.  Although the
Subrs preserved their unnatural silence, uttering no word either of
praise or condemnation of Jophan's behavior, whatever it might be,
they showed their feelings clearly enough by their actions.  Twice
when Jophan, unnerved by the hardships of the desert, spoke
tactlessly to them or made some error of judgment, some of them
quietly left the expedition and were never seen again.  But, on the
other hand, whenever he exhibited his better qualities,
reinforcements appeared to arrive from nowhere.  Thus, by studying
their reactions carefully, he was able to increase the strength of
his party by quite a substantial number.

     It would have faired ill with him had he not done so, for as
day followed day the strain of the journey began to tell on him.
The heat of the sun seemed to dry up the very marrow of his bones,
and its setting brought only momentary relief, for with nightfall
the air became bitterly cold, and he passed many sleepless nights
shivering under the meager protection of his blanket.  The loyal
support of the sturdy Subrs was a great comfort to him, but willing
as they were they could carry only a certain amount of their dried
food and it seemed to accord ill with his constitution.  It was of a
tasteless and insipid nature, affording only the merest sustenance
and gravely deficient in energy-producing qualities.  Jophan, though
in no danger of actual starvation, began to grow weak and faint of
purpose, and at times his eyes strayed longingly to the green Glades
of Gafia to be seen clearly in the distance.

     So it was that when after many days the party came upon the
first sign of other life in the desert.  It had appeared in the
distance to be a small hut, but on approaching more closely Jophan
saw that it was actually a species of altar before which crouched a
pale and sickly Neofan.  He seemed to be in the process of muttering
some prayer or incantation, and Jophan waited patiently until he had
finished before addressing him.

     "Good day, friend," he said politely, when the Neofan seemed to
have completed his mysterious rites.  "My name is Jophan, and I am
on my way to Trufandom to obtain the Magic Mimeograph, so that I may
publish the Perfect Fanzine."

     "Good day, Neofan," said the other, somewhat superciliously.
"My name is Sycofan, and I am on a similar errand.  I trust you will
set up your altar at a reasonable distance from mine."

     "Altar?"  asked Jophan, surprised.  "What for?"

     "Why, to invoke the BNFicent spirits," said the other
condescendingly.  "Surely you don't imagine that you can cross the
desert without their help?"

     "I did not know it was possible for a mere Neofan to have any
intercourse with the BNFs until he reached Trufandom," said Jophan
wonderingly.

     "Why, of course it is," said the other.  "You must--" At this
point there came a blinding glow of light above the altar, and
Sycofan threw himself on his knees and began beating his head on the
ground.

     In a few moments there was a loud clap of thunder, and a small
solid object fell on the altar and rolled off on to the ground.
Jophan remained erect and gazed at the phenomenon.

     "There!"  said Sycofan smugly, snatching the object up and
showing it to Jophan.  It seemed to bea sort of thin pancake or
waffle, rolled up like a scroll of paper.

     "What is it?"  asked Jophan.

     "It's called a manna-script," said Sycofan, devouring it
greedily.  Jophan watched enviously until the other had swallowed
the last succulent morsel.

     "I suppose you will be resuming your journey now?"  he asked.

     An uneasy expression crossed the other's face.  "Er...no," he
said, rather shamefacedly.  "I think I shall wait here until my
strength is built up.  The manna-scripts need a great deal of
praying for, and I haven't enough of them yet."

     Jophan looked at Sycofan's weak face and privately decided that
it was doubtful if he would ever complete the journey to Trufandom.
After pondering the matter for some minutes he came to a conclusion.

     "I was told," he said earnestly, "that the journey to Trufandom
is one that can be accomplished only by a fan's unaided efforts, and
I believe this to be true.  I cannot believe that if the BNFicent
spirits give aid to one who merely asks it they would withhold it
from one who shows that he deserves it.  I urge you to leave your
altar and come with me."

     "Why, you're only a Neofan," sneered the other.  "Why should I
associate with you when I can have the help of BNFs?"

     "Even they were once Neofen like me," said Jophan quietly.
"Yet they are wise and will not waste their gifts.  You may find,"
he warned Sycofan gravely, "that they will not continue to feed you
indefinitely."

     But Sycofan would not abandon his parasitic existence, and
instead promptly embarked on another session of prayer.

     Shaking his head regretfully, Jophan left him and resumed his
journey.

     Before he had gone much further, Jophan was both delighted and
relieved to find that his surmise had been correct.  To the
accompaniment of a blaze of light and clap of thunder a bulky
manna-script fell beside him; and before disappearing the light
moved on toward Trufandom as if in encouragement.

     Thereafter, the manna-scripts fell with increasing frequency
during the remainder of his journey so that he had no longer any
cause to worry on the score of food.

                            [To be continued.]

------------------------------

Date: Thu 9 May 85 00:11:18-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 15

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
crossing the Desert of Indifference on his way to Trufandom.]
                          Chapter Fifteen
            In which Jophan enters the Region of Oasis.

     But Jophan's difficulties were by no means at an end.  The
scorching heat by day and the bitter cold by night made sleep almost
impossible, and as time went on he became more and more exhausted.
But he staggered on dauntlessly, searching ceaselessly through
red-rimmed eyes for some sign of the end of this terrible desert.

     Shortly before nightfall one day they came upon an oasis.
Jophan let his feeble limbs carry him into the welcome shade of the
trees and lay down to rest for the night, observing as he did so a
flock of gaily-plumaged birds flitting to and fro among the trees,
to the accompaniment of their sweet song.  It sounded like "Bu!
Bu!"  Idly he asked one of the Subrs what the birds were called.
"Bu-birds," replied the Subr laconically.  Smiling quietly to
himself at the ingenious reply, Jophan went to sleep.

     Whether it was the soothing song of the birds, or the fact that
the oasis retained its heat longer than the open desert, Jophan
slept unusually well.  Nevertheless, he realized when he awoke next
morning that he was in no fit state to resume the march.  His limbs
were stiff and enfeebled, and it was all he could do to raise his
head and look about him.  He knew he would have to rest awhile here
in the hope of regaining his strength.

     As he was about to lie back again, however, he noticed just a
few feet away from him a beautiful translucent egg, which must, he
realized, have been laid by one of the Bu-birds during the night.
It occurred to him that it would make a welcome addition to his
diet, and, reaching out painfully for it, he pierced a hole at each
end and raised it to his mouth.

     As the first mouthful of the liquid passed his lips Jophan was
almost shocked in his astonishment.  This was clearly no ordinary
egg.  The fluid it contained was cool, refreshing and intoxicatingly
delicious to the taste.  With each drop Jophan felt new energy
flooding into his body.  When the egg was finished he jumped to his
feet and began to run eagerly round the oasis looking for more, so
intent on the search that he scarcely noticed how quickly his
tiredness had been replaced with boundless energy and enthusiasm.

     Soon he opened all the eggs he could find and poured their
content into one of the empty water bottles.  Then he called his
party together and strode confidently into the desert at their head.

     During the days which followed he found that when his energy
began to flag all that was necessary was to take a draught of the
life-giving fluid.  Instantly his vigor and enthusiasm was restored.
Furthermore he had apparently reached an area of the desert where
oases were plentiful, and each morning he usually collected a
sufficient quantity of "Egg o' Bu," as he now affectionately called
it, to sustain him for the day's journey.  He was now able to
dispense almost completely with ordinary food and water, and would
indeed have been prepared to do without the help of the Subrs had
that been necessary.  The only ill effects he noticed were that
over- indulgence in the elixir was inclined to produce a species of
intoxication and a painless but unsightly swelling of the head.
These he resolved to guard against as carefully as he could.

     Jophan now began to make very rapid progress, and with each day
the change in the character of the desert became more pronounced.
The days were cooler, the night warmer, and oases increasingly
numerous.  Mirages began to appear of the high mountains of
Trufandom, and though he was disappointed each time on finding they
were illusions, he consoled himself with the thought that they
indicated he was approaching his goal.

     At last his patience was rewarded.  One morning he breasted a
long, low ridge of sand-dunes, to see before him, far too clear to
be a mirage, a stupendous mountain range stretching as far as the
eye could see.  Beyond those mountains, he knew with a thrill of
awe, must lie the land of Trufandom.

                            [To be continued.]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 May 85 00:13:28-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 16

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
seeking the route to Trufandom.]

                          Chapter Sixteen
          In which Jophan enters the Canyon of Criticism.

     Jophan now pressed on with redoubled energy, and by evening he
could plainly see a deep rocky cleft leading into the mountains.
This, he knew, must be the Canyon of Criticism, the only route
through the Mountains of Trufandom.  He resolved to fortify himself
with a night's sleep before attempting this new peril, and spent the
night at an oasis.

     Next morning, having partaken cautiously of the Egg o' Bu lest
it should foul his perceptions, Jophan set out for the entrance to
the Canyon.  As he approached it he noticed other Neofen converging
on the point from all directions.  They rushed past, wild-eyed and
eager, and plunged into the Canyon.  They had obviously partaken too
freely of Egg o' Bu, for their eyes were glazed, their steps
unsteady, their heads unnaturally swollen, and their clothes and
Shields neglected and dirty.  Reluctant as he was to let them
overtake him, he took thought of his previous experience and the
warnings he had been given.  He polished his Shield of Umor hastily,
checked his provisions, and only then set foot cautiously into the
Canyon.

     The path proved to be along the side of the Canyon rather than
at its foot.  After he had travelled some distance Jophan noticed
that while the ground still fell away sharply to his left, the cliff
on his right had gradually merged into a more gentle slope.  Along
this the path split into several smaller paths which wound their
separate ways along the mountainside.

     As he picked his way along over the rougher ground he heard a
clatter of falling rock in front of him, and looked upwards in time
to see several small stones bounding toward him over an overhanging
boulder.  Hastily he brought up his Shield and covered himself with
it.  Most of the stones bounced harmlessly off it, but to his dismay
one of them passed through as if the Shield were made of vapor, and
dealt him a severe blow on the shoulder.  Suppressing a cry of pain,
Jophan looked closely at his Shield.  There was, he now noticed, a
tarnished patch which had escaped the hasty polishing he had done
that morning.  Retreating quickly to safety, he polished his Shield
to a uniform brilliance.  Then he ventured again towards the danger
area, looking curiously ahead to see how the other Neofen were
faring.

     It was a dreadful sight that met his eyes.  Lying on the paths
were the crushed and bleeding bodies of many of the Neofen who had
passed him that morning.  Among them others staggered about,
panic-stricken, trying to dodge the hail of stones.  But their minds
were so befuddled, and their swollen heads so vulnerable beneath
their tiny and tarnished Shields, that the efforts of many were in
vain.  Even as he watched, one of the unfortunate wretches was
struck from the path by a particularly heavy stone, and with a
heart-rending scream vanished from sight down the rocky slope.

     On emerging from the lee of the big boulder which had been
affording him some shelter, Jophan shielded his eyes from the sun
and peered up the slope to try to discover why the falls of rock
were so frequent.  To his horror he saw, outlined against the sky, a
row of dark, misshapen little men busily engaged in uprooting stones
and hurling them at the defenseless Neofen below.  He watched them
for a while, but they showed no sign of abating their activities.
Indeed, they did not even seem to stop for food for he noticed one
dwarf hurling stones with one hand and with the other eating what
appeared to be a bunch of small sour grapes.

     This last sight caused Jophan to decide that there was no point
in delaying further.  As he ventured forth a savage howl arose from
the dwarfs, and the grape-eater seized a particularly sharp stone
and threw it with tremendous speed directly at Jophan.  Without
flinching Jophan held his Shield firmly above his head.  The stone
bounced harmlessly off the Shield and back to the thrower with
undiminished force.  With grim satisfaction he observed it strike
the dwarf with deadly effect, dislodging him from his perch so that
he fell screaming down the slope and vanished into the abyss.

     Greatly pleased with the excellence of his Shield, Jophan
proceeded along the path.  The dwarfs seemed to have learned a
lesson from a taste of their own medicine, and such stones as were
thrown in his direction were cast in such a tentative and
half-hearted manner that he could almost afford to ignore them.  He
began to think that the perils of the Canyon were at an end.

     This mood of over-confidence was soon rudely shattered.  On
rounding the next curve in his path he suddenly found himself in
semi-darkness.  Thinking that a cloud had passed over the sun, he
looked up casually.  His heart almost failed him to see that the
shadow was cast by several huge, swarthy giants sitting drowsily
among the swarming dwarfs on the crest of the cliff.

                            [To be continued.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 May 85 1038-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #169
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 18 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 169

Today's Topics:

       ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ******

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 May 85 00:14:30-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 17

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan is
on his way to Trufandom.]
                         Chapter Seventeen
           In which Jophan continues through the Canyon.

     Even as Jophan watched, one of the giants awoke, snorting
angrily.  With no apparent reason, or even perception of what he was
doing, the giant uttered a great bellow of wrath, seized a boulder
as large as a house and hurled it down the slope.  The huge mass of
rock hurtled down into a line of Neofen, smashing several to the
ground despite their upraised Shields of Umor, and continued on its
way down the mountainside, bounding from path to path, and sometimes
carrying away whole fan groups at a time.

     When the last despairing cry had died away, Jophan looked back
up the slope to see that the giant had settled back down to sleep, a
contented, imbecilic smile on his countenance.  Shuddering with
disgust and fear, Jophan withdrew a few paces and sat down in the
entrance to a cave to recover his nerve.

     The sound of his own breathing had barely subsided when he was
again startled by a clicking noise behind him.  He turned round
sharply, and, as his eyes became more accustomed to the
semi-darkness, he could see that the noise came from a Neofan who
was striking a flat piece of stone with a tiny axe.  He was so
intent on his work that he did not notice Jophan's presence until
the latter spoke to him.

     "What are these dreadful beings?"  asked Jophan fearfully,
speaking the first thought in his mind.

     "They belong to a race known as Magrevoos," said the Neofan
knowledgeably.  "The dwarfs are called Fanmagrevoos and the giants
Promagrevoos.  Many of them are not really evil, merely thoughtless
and stupid.  The giants, for example, have no idea of their own
strength, and do not understand half of what is going on down here.
In fact they would probably ignore us altogether were it not for the
fact that they are continually being prodded into activity by a
strange and powerful tribe known as the Headeaters, who live in the
mountains."  As he spoke, he lifted up a flat stone, which Jophan
now saw was covered with neatly-cut lettering, and carried it to the
mouth of the cave.  He beckoned Jophan to follow him.

     "Moreover," he went on, "there are other Magrevoos who do their
best to make up for the harm done by their fellows.  They are known
as the Fair Ones.  Watch!"

     Jophan looked again at the scene of carnage on the
mountainside.  He saw that groups of fair-complexioned and
kindly-faced dwarfs were passing among the victims reviving them
with draughts of Egg o' Bu, raising them to their feet, and helping
them some distance along the path.  There was even a beautiful,
blonde giantess assisting in the work of mercy.  Jophan noticed,
however, that while most of the dwarfs carefully selected those
among the survivors who seemed most likely to benefit from their
help, the giantess showed no such discrimination.  Instead, she
would sweep up a random pile of Neofen, including some who were
obviously dead, drench them with Egg o' Bu from a large pitcher she
carried slung over her shoulders, and with a few mighty strides
deposit them far along the path.  He saw that many of them merely
sat in a daze where she placed them, quite incapable of taking
advantage of their good fortune.

     "Who is she?"  asked Jophan.

     "She comes from a now almost extinct tribe known as Fillips,"
said the Neofan absently.  He had been swinging the stone in his
right hand and now flung it with great force towards the crest of
the mountains.  He and Jophan watched it spin over the heads of the
the dwarfs and disappear from view.

     "You missed," said Jophan.

     "It was not a missile," explained the Neofan patiently, "but a
missive.  A message to the Headeaters who control the giants.  It is
important to propitiate them, for they are by far the most important
tribe in Fandom.  indeed, there is a tradition that on their
existence depends that of Trufandom itself.

     "If that is so," said Jophan, impressed, "your work is
obviously of the greatest importance, and I should like to help if I
may.  My name is Jophan, and I am, of course, on my way to Trufandom
to find the Magic Mimeograph and produce the Perfect Fanzine."

     "My name is Letterax," said the other cordially, "and I am
delighted to make your acquaintance."  With these words he gave
Jophan a small axe, similar to his own, and they composed several
messages to the Headeaters.

     When the last of these had disappeared into the mountains
Jophan spoke reflectively to Letterax.

     "Since these mountains surround Trufandom on all sides," he
pointed out, "it occurs to me that it would be quite as easy to send
the messages from Trufandom as from here.  Should we not continue
our journey?"

     Letterax looked doubtful.  "Do so if you wish," he said, "but I
have several more messages I want to write.  I shall follow you
later."

     Privately, Jophan doubted if the Neofan would ever stir from
his peaceful existence in the cave, but he expressed the hope of
seeing him again in Trufandom and wished him a cordial farewell.
Then, having generously replenished Letterax's skimpy supply of Egg
o' Bu, he started on the last stage of his journey to Trufandom.

                            [To be concluded.]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 May 85 00:15:09-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 18

[The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw.  Jophan has
been trying to reach Trufandom.]
                          Chapter Eighteen
           In which Jophan reaches the End of his Journey

     By the use of care and discretion, Jophan was able to evade the
blind rages of the giants, and he found his Shield an infallible
protection against the malice of the dwarfs.  Thus he emerged from
the danger area unscathed, and soon reached the head of the Canyon.
He now found himself on a pleasant, flower-decked path leading
gently upwards to a pass between the mountains.  The sky in that
direction was tinged with a warm golden glow, and at the sight he
quickened his pace, for he knew that the glow could come only from
Trufandom.

     However, the path was longer than it had seemed, and the sun
had set before he had reached the summit.  Regretfully he decided
that he had better pass the night where he was.  The grass beside
the path was soft and the night was warm and pleasant, but Jophan
found great difficulty in going to sleep.  Borne on the mild breeze
he heard the faint sound of happy voices coming from Trufandom, and
they filled him with impatience to complete his journey.

     Next morning he was on his way at the first hint of light in
the sky, and as dawn broke he had almost reached the summit of the
pass.  Gasping, he ran the last few hundred yards and flung himself
down on the ground to drink in the beauty of the scene which lay
before him.

     Bathed in the mysterious, golden light of early dawn lay the
fair land of Trufandom.  Only its hills and spires were picked out
by the questing rays of the sun, for the country was a sunken
plateau ringed on all sides by mountains, so that it formed a
secluded world of its own.  A more wonderful one Jophan could not
have imagined.  Beautiful as it was, however, his eyes were caught
and held by the most wonderful thing of all.  It was a tall, white
tower which rose out of the rolling park land, and soared into the
sky.  On the summit something glittered like a tiny sun.

     This, he knew, must be the Tower of Trufandom -- and on its top
The Enchanted Duplicator!

     All eagerness, he started down the grassy slope.  He had taken
but a few cautious steps when the thought came to him that here his
Shield of Umor might have other uses than as a means of defense.
Smiling happily to himself, he put the Shield on the ground and used
it as a toboggan.

     Thus, Jophan sailed gaily down into Trufandom.

     At the foot of the the slope he again took up his Shield, now
shining more brilliantly than ever before, and strode through the
leafy lanes in the direction of the Tower.  On either side of him
were numerous parks and gardens, great and small, and of varying
types of beauty, and in them walked shining, godlike figures whom he
knew to be Trufans.  Now and again one of them would notice Jophan,
and come to greet him and wish him well, and with each encounter his
eagerness grew to reach the Tower and become one of their number.

     So it was that late in the afternoon Jophan came at last to the
Tower.  There was a spiral staircase inside, and without hesitation
he began to climb it.  Up and up he went, round and round, higher
and higher, long after he thought he should have reached the top.
But the Tower was higher than he realized, and he was giddy and out
of breath when at last he reached the head of the stairs.  Above him
now there was only a short ladder to a trapdoor.

     Jophan sat on the stairway for a while until his dizziness had
passed, and he had regained his breath.  Then he climbed up the
ladder and pushed at the trapdoor.  It swung open easily, on a
concealed counterbalance.  Above him was the blue sky.

     Though he had come so far, and braved so many dangers for this
moment, his heart almost failed him now that his goal was at hand.
But at last, pulling himself together, he stepped quickly up the
ladder and onto the roof.

     He was on the very top of the Tower.  Far beneath him was
spread out all the Land of Trufandom as far as the now distant
mountains.  The top of the Tower was a sheet of burnished gold, and
in the center was a cube of solid gold.  On the cube there stood a
mimeograph.

     At the sight of it Jophan felt a sickness in the stomach, and
his legs almost failed to support him.  Whitefaced, he stared at the
mimeograph.  He had expected a gleaming, jewel-like machine.
Instead he saw a rusty, battered hulk.  The framework was filthy
with ink, the drum was caked, and there was something obviously
wrong with the self-feed.  It squatted on the gleaming, gold cube,
an obscene eye sore.

     Jophan tried to pull himself together, telling himself that
there must be some mistake.  But there was nothing else on the roof,
just the trapdoor through which he had come, the gold cube, and the
old mimeograph.  Dazed by the shock of his disappointment, he
wandered aimlessly across the top of the Tower.

     As he did so his hand brushed against the handle of the
mimeograph, and something like an electric shock coursed through his
body.  Amazed, he took a firm grip on the handle.  A current of some
potent force seemed to flow between him and the machine, feeding
back and forth from one to the other until Jophan felt every
particle of his being suffused with a strange new life.  The
mimeograph had also changed.  There was no difference in its outward
appearance, but he knew that the potent force had also taken
possession of it.  It was subtly changed, as if it had been dead and
was now alive.  The handle seemed to throb in his hand.  Still
uncomprehending, Jophan looked down at his own body.  His skin was
glowing with the same golden radiance he had noticed in the bodies
of the Trufans.  His limbs were being invested with the same godlike
strength.

     As the revelation came to him, there was a sound of golden
trumpets in the air, and he heard again the voice of the Spirit of
Fandom.

     "Yes, Jophan," it said," you are now a True Fan; and it is
yourself that has made you so, as it must be.  And now you realize
the second great truth -- that this is indeed the Magic Mimeograph,
and it will produce the Perfect Fanzine.  For--" and now the song of
the trumpets filled the air, ringing across Trufandom to the far
mountains-- "FOR THE MAGIC MIMEOGRAPH IS THE ONE WITH A TRUE FAN AT
THE HANDLE."

     And Jophan found that it was so.....

                                 -THE END-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 85 1125-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #170
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 170

Today's Topics:

                        Art - Cover Artwork,
                        Books - Asimov & Pohl,
                        Films - Highrise & SF Shorts,
                        Radio - Jack Flanders,
                        Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today & 
                              Relativity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (steven brust)
Subject: re: cover artwork in general
Date: 16 may 85 19:04:31 gmt

>    I found it interesting that you liked the cover to Hell, SKZB;
> rumor had it that you detested it.
>               ---Jen H.---

I must have misstated myself.  The rumor is correct; I detest it.
The thing is, the *painting* is fine; it's just horribly wrong for
the book.  I will forgive them if it sells, but, given clash between
the painting and the lettering, I doubt it will do that.

I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but the cover art to
BROKEDOWN PALACE is being done by Alan Lee.  THIS I am looking
forward to seeing.  He did the covers for an edition of the
GHORMANGHAST Trilogy, and those covers are magnificant.  He has also
done a collection of artwork called CASTLES that has been getting
rave reviews.  Faunch Faunch.

                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 May 85 01:09:14-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: MultivAC question....

        A while back, when all the discussion of Asimov's Multivac
stories was taking place, I asked the burning question: 'What does
the AC at the end of Multivac et. al. stand for?'.

        I received 9 responses, of which 5 were correct. I guess
that this shows that net-landers read the classics (or maybe we're
just old).  The first correct answer came from Bob Carter
<carter@rutgers>, whose two-word reponse was 'Analogue Computer'.
While I strongly suspect Asimov used the US spelling of 'analog',
this is close enough and Bob may have his ten bonus points.  Check
'The Last Question' in Nine Tommorows for this answer.

        The other correct responses came from (in order of
reception): Peter Alfke <jpa144@cit-vax>, Stephen Balzac
<LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC>, 'deej' <d102@CMU-CC-TD>, and 'jbl'
<levin@BBNCCT.ARPA>.

        Incorrect responses centered around analogies to Univac:
(UNIVersal Automatic Computer). This is a very easy error, and I
suspect that The Good Doctor had Univac in mind when he wrote the
story.  Other suggestions were Algorithmic Computer, Analytic(al)
Calculator, and Asimov's Computer (or Asimov and Clarke (!)).

Other observations:
"Multivac is to Univac as Unix is to Multics."  Bruce Leban.
"Multivax would be a good node-name for an VAX 11/782."  Robert
Krawitz.
                                                Peter

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 May 85 11:20:06 EDT
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington>
Subject: Fredrik Pohl's MAN PLUS

    Just finished MAN PLUS, now in it's 8th printing (first printing
was in '76, so many of you will have already seen it).

    Basically, it is about an attempt to colonize our solar system
using a cyborg, sort of a "super six-million dollar man," with
machine- and computer-assisted enhancements.

    I can't say more without risking a spoiler, so will close with a
recommendation, especially to the "computer-in-sf" contingent.

    Ron S.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 May 85 09:47:46 edt
From: gfh@cca-unix (Gail Hormats)
Subject: Re: HighRise

the short animation called Highrise was done as a calling card by a
friend of a friend of a friend of mine.  It was intended to show the
abilities of the director/animator when he went to Hollywood (or
some such place) to obtain a job.  I saw it last summer in my
friend's basement and enjoyed it for what it was.  I didn't know it
had "gone public" and was being shown in theatres.  Gail Hormats

arpa: gfh@cca
usenet: try looking in the header, I've never figured it out, sorry.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: A Program of Science Fiction Shorts
Date: 18 May 85 01:00:15 PDT (Sat)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> (No flames about the good works of the Canadian Film Board,
> please.  They've done some good stuff, but too much of their
> output is self indulgence in technique.)

Sorry, I can't oblige.  The work of the National Film Board of
Canada is frequently magnificent (nor does animation predominate in
it, by any means).  And despite their name, it is not limited to
films.  The books "Canada: A Year of the Land" and a similar one --
whose name I've forgotten -- showing both sides of the border,
intended for the American Bicentennary, come prominently to mind.

My experience with the National Film Board of Canada so far causes
me to expect great things whenever I hear of a file they've made; my
disappointments (inevitable with an expectation like that) have been
few.  Thank heaven North America has an alternative to Hollywood.

                        Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 1985 19:09-EDT
From: John.Wenn@CMU-CS-G.ARPA
Subject: Re: Jack Flanders ????

"The Fourth Tower of Inverness" is a set of cassette tapes (5 tapes,
7 hours) done by ZBS.  ZBS has produced an interesting selection of
(mostly original) Science Fantasy radio drama (or "mind movies" as
they like to call them).  All have good to excellent sound effects
and voices, and I like most of the stories.  In addition to TFToI,
they have made two additional Jack Flanders series ("Moon over
Morocco" [7 tapes, 10 hours], and "The Incredible Adventures of Jack
Flanders [5 tapes, 5 hours]), "Ruby" (A female galactic gumshoe [4
tapes, 3 1/2 hours]), "Stars & Stuff" (Misc funny stories [6 tapes,
8 hours]), a new series featuring known SF stories ("The Mist" by
King, "The Bleeding Man" by Wollheim, etc.), and various other
stuff.  My favorite is "Ruby".  This series has great effects,
fantastic voices, witty dialogue, wonderful story line, awful mole
puns, and STYLE.

You can just order the first tape of a series, and then order the
rest if you like it.  For a catalgue, their address is

        ZBS Foundation
        RR #1, Box 1201
        Fort Edward, NY  12828
        Tel. (518) 695-6409 or 695-3960.

Well worth looking into.

/john

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I
Date: 14 May 85 02:39:00 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY

       PART I: The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions

                          by Davis Tucker

    "I hadn't liked his work until I met him, but
     I couldn't stand liking him so much and not liking
     his books, so I made myself read them until I
     liked them." (1)

This quote exemplifies what is so difficult about science fiction
and its relation to its public. Since it is such an insular (some
would say inbred) community, there is a wonderful "personal" nature
of the relationship between author and reader that does not really
exist in any other genre (which I notice, most other forms of
popular writing do not refer to themselves as a "genre", but that's
something else altogether...). Fine. There is nothing wrong with a
public being in closer contact with an author, as long as that
contact does not downgrade any given person's ability to judge and
appreciate. Unfortunately, this degradation of critical faculties
is unavoidable, just by human nature, and it takes a very strong
sense of self to keep it in check. The above statement puts it very
succinctly - and is a very good example of what is so often wrong
with science fiction fandom and its rationale for giving accolades
or insults.

Dostoevsky was, by all accounts, an extremely contentious and
obnoxious individual, who was prone to fits of rage and drunkenness;
a man who died without many friends, mainly because he drove them
off. Yet he is one of the finest writers of all time. His work is a
product of himself; I'm not saying we have to divorce the man from
the words.  But given the usual nature of science fiction, if he
happened to be a writer in that field today, he probably wouldn't
get published, he certainly wouldn't win any awards, and he would
definitely not gain any great appreciation from the science fiction
readers and establishment. This is not conjecture; this is fact. And
the hardest fact of all for many fans to swallow, which few of them
have, is that it is often the most disagreeable people who write the
greatest literature. Our most tortured souls, our outcasts, our
misanthropes. Mark Twain. Edgar Allen Poe. Sinclair Lewis. John
Steinbeck. Ambrose Bierce (to whom science fiction owes a great deal
for writing a number of definitive "tomato surprise" stories). And
even more recently, Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Truman Capote,
Tennessee Williams! Let's be honest - almost all great writers, even
if they were likable, had some very horrible personality traits,
often in the extreme. Alcoholism and drug abuse seem to be the
congenital defects of writers, coupled with a large streak of
self-destructiveness.  Now, it's true that there are many likable
people who could fit into this company. But the point is that
someone's congeniality is not his or her writing. It just flat out
has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of his or her prose.

A good friend of mine works for a newspaper. She's written all her
life.  She's a wonderful human being from whom I've learned an
incredible amount. She's a very likable person, the kind who draws
people into conversations, who listens, who relates. But she can't
write fiction for jack. No ifs, ands, or buts - she's just not good
at it. Now am I supposed to start liking her writing because I like
her? Sure, she's a close friend, and I'll do more than just give her
the benefit of the doubt. But to "make myself read them until I like
them", to bludgeon myself into liking her fiction, is to go against
everything for which great, even good writing stands. It downgrades
literature of any sort, takes it from being an art or a craft, to
being a popularity contest.  And that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Vincent Van Gogh was a tortured, insane, and lonely man. Norman
Rockwell was basically a nice guy. I probably would not have enjoyed
being around Van Gogh, while Norman and I would quite possibly have
gotten along famously.  So I should, by the above quoted argument,
attempt to reach a deeper appreciation of Rockwell's work due to my
personal fondness for him. In other words, if I like him so much as
a person, I certainly would like his work.  But no matter how much I
tried, Norman Rockwell would never be one millionth of Vincent Van
Gogh, would never possess one iota of Van Gogh's genius.

Isaac Asimov, from everything I've heard, is a gentleman -
well-mannered, considerate, helpful to young authors, interested in
new talent. Some of his work possesses merit - his non-fiction.
We'll forget about his poetry ("Dr. A."  indeed!). His fiction is
not that good - yes, it shows some marginal craftsmanship, some
workable ideas, but it's not really that good, as fiction.  His
characters are at best two-dimensional, his societies are not really
that interesting unless you like space opera, and his writing style
is pretty nondescript and undeveloped. His plots are rather
predictable, and his themes are shopworn after 40 years. Whatever he
had to say about robots he said a long, long time ago (Karel Kapek
said it with much more depth and understanding in "R.U.R.", which
predates any of the Asimov robot stories). He has made a career out
of mediocrity, out of the standard "Scientist-With-Great-Idea-
Explains-It-All-To-Young-Whippersnapper" story so unfortunately
common in science fiction (especially the misnamed "Golden Age Of
Science Fiction"). There's nothing wrong with that; believe me, the
last thing I would do is take cheap potshots at someone who actually
makes a living by being a writer, even if I think he's not a very
good one.  But nothing he has written even comes close to Gene
Wolfe. This isn't mere opinion - I don't truck with the idea of
absolute relativism in art.  It is probably an overstatement, but
Asimov is to Wolfe as Rockwell is to Van Gogh.

Appreciation of good writing takes many forms, and it is arguably
less critically bankrupt to like an author for his work than to like
his work for his personality. A writer and his work are certainly
not separate; but it is the printed word which must be judged,
because that is the primary function of a writer - not to be a nice
human being, or a good father, or a temperate drinker, but to be a
good writer. Anything else is superfluous, unimportant, icing on the
cake. A great author can be forgiven anything in his life, no matter
how heinous; a bad writer can be the finest man in the world, but he
cannot be forgiven being a bad writer. If science fiction were not a
field of literary endeavor (and who knows? Sometimes it really does
seem to be something totally different), none of this would matter.
But it is, and it is incumbent upon readers of science fiction to
remember this, and judge accordingly, and not allow personalities to
affect that judgment.

That's all for today, kids. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF
SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II: Meet The New Hack, Same As The Old
Hack".

(1) Steven Brust, USENET article dated May 6, 1985

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 85 20:36 CDT
From: Patrick_Duff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: questions about the theory of relativity

   While space-digest is answering questions from people who have
always been bothered by some aspect of the theory of relativity, I
have a few which have been puzzling me for some time.

   Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after
being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell
you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of
near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)?  I'm not talking
about a computer which would perform calculations based upon a
history file of past accelerations, but rather a "device" which
reacts to the accelerations it experiences.  What about a "clock"
which would always tell you the time & date on the other object?  It
seems to me that if you can make either one you can make the other
one as well; they are *almost* the same device, aren't they?  If
these devices are possible, would they require lots of mass (as
massive as a planet, perhaps?) to achieve reasonable accuracy over
inter-stellar distances, or could they be something more like a
wrist-watch?

An early science fiction book (\Skylark/ by E. E. Doc Smith) had
another interesting device which was something like a compass;
wherever you were in the universe, it would point at whatever you
had "locked" it onto (the farther away you were from the object, the
longer it took the needle to stop moving, or the more power you had
to feed it, or something like that; at one point the characters in
the story measured this to find out not only the direction, but also
the approximate distance to the object).

   In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel
through time without traveling through space has always bothered me.
If you could exchange one of the three space axes for a time axis
(such as inside the event horizon of a black hole?), travel along
it, and then rotate back, then to move 1 second you would have to
travel approximately 186,000 miles.  Am I missing something here?
Also, what difference would it make whether you traveled that
distance at a slow speed (.001 c) or a fast speed (.999 c)?  Does
such travel avoid any cause/effect paradoxes?  After all, you would
be staying within the cause/effect light-cone, wouldn't you?

   Finally (for now anyway), I have heard it said that Einstein's
theory of relativity could be replaced by a quantum theory of
gravity.  I'm unconvinced; it seems to me that they concern
fundamentally different aspects of the universe.

Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621***      pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay
5049 Walker Dr. #91103              214/480-1659 (work)
The Colony, TX 75056-1120           214/370-5363 (home)
(a suburb of Dallas, TX)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 85 1136-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #171
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 171

Today's Topics:

            Art - Cover Art,
            Books - Brust & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Wilhelm,
            Films - Canticle for Leibowitz & Rocky Horror &
                    Dungeonmaster,
            Miscellaneous - Relativity (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: re: cover art (To Reign in Hell, Alan Lee, and The Iron Tower
Subject: Trilogy)
Date: 18 May 85 17:42:46 GMT

I agree with Steven (Brust), the lettering on _To Reign in Hell_
clashes with the cover art.

And, Steve, I think that on your next book artwork by Alan Lee ought
to be just super...  You see, he did the work on my _Iron Tower
Trilogy_ and I was *stunned* by the results.  The rest of the world
will get to see it in August, September, and October of this year
when the Signet paperbacks hit the market.

Dennis L. McKiernan
...ihnp4!cbuxc!dim

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 May 85 09:15 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: review of "To Reign in Hell"

I picked up Brust's "To Reign in Hell" as soon as it showed up. I'd
read - and thoroughly enjoyed - his previous two books, so was
looking forward to this one with great anticipation. Although TRiH
is done quite differently than Brust's first two books, I was not
disappointed! It takes a while to get used to the style the book is
written in - the scenes change with, at first, disturbing quickness.
However, once I got used to the book there was no problem. My main
impression of the book is it reminded me of a Shakespearean tragedy
(high praise, in my mind). Several likable characters being
manipulated by one unlikable character into a disasterous
confrontation. (In reference to the discussions on cover art I've
seen recently, the cover scene does appear in the book - more or
less. It's not a scene I would have chosen for the cover but I guess
dragons sell books these days - I know I'll give a book with a
dragon on the cover a good looking-over.) Anyway, I highly recommend
the book.

By the way, does anyone out there know of a comic book mailing list
on arpa?  How many of you know a comic book received three
preliminary nominations for the Nebula Award?

Henry Vogel     henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sat 18 May 85 15:51:57-PDT
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: V10 #163--Heinlein

First, let us not judge Heinlein's CHARACTERS' actions by our own
standards: In _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the "girls" PUT UP with
Jubal, because of his advanced age.  Further, Gillian's reaction to
Digby's "little lady" was due to her dislike of what she perceived
as his attempt to take VMS away from his family--NOT because she had
read Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, and Germaine Greer.

Second, Allucquere was STILL as tough and free-spirited as before
her marriage; she just played the same game that most (all?) of
Heinlein's female characters do: The male ape is appeased by my
appearing to be infantile and therefore helpless, so since I enjoy
his company, I'll play along until I get tired of it.

Before the flames go on, please note that I am making no statements
here about my own beliefs one way of another....

                                        Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

Date: Sat 18 May 85 15:53:59-PDT
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #163

Oops--a thought was incomplete in that last--I intended to point out
that _Stranger in a Strange Land_, for example, is 25 years old; the
prevailing attitudes were different.
                                                Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

Date: Sun 19 May 85 23:19:45-PDT
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: Kate Wilhelm's Welcome Chaos

Just finished the new Wilhelm, _Welcome,_Chaos_, and was impressed
overall.  Well paced, nice conflicts, and styled well (at least, I
liked it...).  A few mild flaws

                      *** spoiler warning ***
in that this seemed like a contemporary spy thriller; like
_The_Boys_From_Brazil_ or some such.  It is contemporary, had some
mis-direction about who were the good guys, the Soviets were
involved and events threatened to launch WW III.  All ok as far as
it goes, but not the kind of book I expected.  One other item crept
in which bothered me; the main group here had a secret to protect
and they tended to kill anybody whose research led in the same
direction.  This had been successful enough (and somehow unobtrusive
enough) to prevent most folks from following up that line.  But one
of their victims 'was already spending his Nobel money' which seemed
strange; how could this research possibly be secret if a Nobel had
been awarded on the same lines?

This minor point really didn't detract more than momentarily, the
book was great.

ddo (dolson @ eclb.arpa)

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz.arpa (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Re: movie of Leibowitz
Date: 18 May 85 08:00:14 GMT

I think a movie of _A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz_ would be great, but in
a manner of speaking, it's already been done.  I'm speaking of the
National Public Radio Production.  It aired a little over a year ago
over Minnesota Public Radio.  It was well done and fairly verbaitim.
I think these extended radio shows are the ideal way to do dramatic
adaptations of literary works.  Where else can you do twelve-hour
productions?
     The radio adaptations of the first two STAR WARS movies were
really good too... much more detail than thie books or movies, and
with Mark Hamill, Anthony Daniels, and the original Ben Burtt sound
effects, all well mixed right in St.  Paul by Tom Vogli, I think.
The replacement actors for the rest of the cast were on the whole
believable.
     I often read books and think about what good movies they would
make, but... ah well.  Someone ought REALLY to make movies out of
Alan Dean Foster's original SF.  _Cachalot_, for instance reads just
like a movie, with a teaser at the beginning, followed by the
arrival of the main characters, during which one can practically see
the credits rolling.  My choice for a Foster movie would be
_Icerigger_.
                                Laurence Roberts
                                ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 85  10:52 EDT (Sun)
From: Mijjil <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show (no spoilers)

    This is news to me, that Rocky Horror is finally available on
video tape.  Can you give me some info as to which film company
released it, etc?  Where did you buy it?

    To answer your questions on the soundtrack, as far as I know,
the movie soundtrack is mono.  It seems that no one thought of
releasing the soundtrack, so the original cast had to be brought
back together to work in a recording studio - recreating the songs
from the film.

    You can tell the difference in the way some of the songs are
sung - that is, the difference between the movie and sound track
versions, if you listen carefully.

Don't dream it, be it...
{Mijjil}

------------------------------

From: anwar!chuck@topaz.arpa (chuck jann)
Subject: Re: "The Dungeon Master" <<SPOILER!!>>
Date: 18 May 85 03:39:52 GMT

      The Dungeon Master" the movie in search of writers.
      DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME OR MONEY ON THIS FILM !
cj
UUCP address:   {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!chuck

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 85 7:06:31 EDT
From: Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn@Brl.ARPA>
To: Patrick_Duff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re:  questions about the theory of relativity

>    Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after
> being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell
> you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of
> near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)?

Not really, because it would have to know all about the structure of
the region of space(-time) it was operated in.  If you happen to
know what the structure is (e.g., essentially flat in intergalactic
space), then a close approximation could be done by keeping track of
perceived accelerations.

If the "other object" were another spaceship, it would be even
harder, since the device would also have to know how the other
object was moving.

> I'm not talking about a computer which would perform calculations
> based upon a history file of past accelerations, but rather a
> "device" which reacts to the accelerations it experiences.

What's the difference?

> What about a "clock" which would always tell you the time & date
> on the other object?

Similar situation.  Both cases assume that there is a meaning to
where the distant object "really is" and what its time "really is";
in general there is no single answer to these questions.

>    In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel
> through time without traveling through space has always bothered
> me.

Gee, I find it easy to move through time without moving through
space.  Rip van Winkle found it even easier..

>    Finally (for now anyway), I have heard it said that Einstein's
> theory of relativity could be replaced by a quantum theory of
> gravity.

Funny how the people who say this haven't been able to do so.

> I'm unconvinced; it seems to me that they concern fundamentally
> different aspects of the universe.

Yes, indeed.  More relevantly, their conceptual foundations are
quite dissimilar.  General relativity (more precisely, generalized
field theory) is best expressed as a theory about an objective
reality.  Quantum theory (QED, QCD) fundamentally denies this.  Both
theories are claimed to work; no single theory has yet been able to
unify these two.  Most recent such attempts start from the quantum
approach; Einstein started from the field theory approach.  There
are some striking similarities in some of the resulting technical
details (e.g., non-Abelian gauge groups for "internal" symmetries)
but there are still considerable differences in the concepts.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 85 19:58 CDT
From: Patrick_Duff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: RE: questions about the theory of relativity

   By now, most readers should have had an opportunity to reach
their own opinions concerning the questions I posed.  Now that 24
hours has passed since I mailed my last message, let me throw in a
few of my opinions.

>   Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after
>being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell
>you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of
>near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)?  I'm not talking
>about a computer which would perform calculations based upon a
>history file of past accelerations, but rather a "device" which
>reacts to the accelerations it experiences.  What about a "clock"
>which would always tell you the time & date on the other object?

   What's missing here is the unspoken assumption that the object
does not accelerate after it is "locked" onto (I suppose one could
compensate for predictable accelerations, such as those due to the
object's orbit (e.g., the Earth's orbit around Sol)).  An
alternative (though much less useful) is to have a device which
would be "reset" (perhaps while on the ground before takeoff) and
would then give the velocity or time & date at that point in space
(which will soon be empty as the planet moves on) relative to you
regardless of subsequent maneuvers.

   My opinion is yes, they are theoretically possible.  Practical
complications abound however.  For instance, you would have to
consider the accelerations experienced while moving in a
gravitational field (such as when passing near a black hole).  In
the case of the clock, since the rate at which it would register
passing time would change over a wide range, a purely mechanical
solution is difficult.  In some situations it would need to move so
slowly that vibration, friction and random molecular motions (heat)
would become overriding influences.  In other situations the various
parts of the mechanism would need to move extremely rapidly.  These
problems could be solved if the device were able to automatically
change scales (e.g., one revolution of an indicator used to mean one
week passing on the object, but now it means one hour passing)
whenever things started going too slowly (or too quickly).

   I don't know whether you could do these operations without
keeping a history of past accelerations.  What I'd prefer is a
device which simply changes its current operation in direct response
to an acceleration it is currently experiencing.

>An early science fiction book (\Skylark/ by E. E. Doc Smith) had
>another interesting device which was something like a compass;
>wherever you were in the universe, it would point at whatever you
>had "locked" it onto (the farther away you were from the object,
>the longer it took the needle to stop moving, or the more power you
>had to feed it, or something like that; at one point the characters
>in the story measured this to find out not only the direction, but
>also the approximate distance to the object).

   In \Skylark/ the power to the compass was turned on only when a
reading was needed (at least, that's the way I remember it
happening).  It seems to me that you would need to power such a
device continuously unless it used a history file.

   What I'm discussing in the above paragraphs are some of the
instruments which would be needed on a ship capable of traveling at
relativistic velocities.  When such a ship needs to know where to
aim its communication laser, what frequency or bit-rate to use, when
to start sending it, the distance to another object, how to
rendezvous with another ship, etc., the instruments which are used
today on sea-going ships and orbital vehicles are completely
inadequate.  We know enough right now to write programs for all of
the necessary calculations; can someone who has experience as a
navigator, communicator, etc. suggest a list of what calculations
would be needed to answer all of the questions which would arise in
the operation of such a ship?

>   In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel
>through time without traveling through space has always bothered
>me.  If you could exchange one of the three space axes for a time
>axis (such as inside the event horizon of a black hole?), travel
>along it, and then rotate back, then to move 1 second you would
>have to travel approximately 186,000 miles.  Am I missing something
>here?  Also, what difference would it make whether you traveled
>that distance at a slow speed (.001 c) or a fast speed (.999 c)?
>Does such travel avoid any cause/effect paradoxes?  After all, you
>would be staying within the cause/effect light-cone, wouldn't you?

    Since travel along the time-axis while it is exchanged with one
of the space axes is space-like and hence limited by the speed of
light, this implies that the rate at which one can travel through
time (at least, by this method) is also limited.

    The question about the velocity of travel along the time axis
really opens up a can of worms.  Relativistic effects are tied to
gravitational phenomena; what would a gravitational field look like
while travelling along a rotated time axis?  It seems to me that any
velocity-related effects would operate in a time-like manner on the
space-like time-axis; in other words, some kind of "meta-time" (I
don't know what it is, but it was fun to include it!).

    As for cause/effect paradoxes, upon reflection I now realize
that when you exchange a time-axis with a space-axis, you will
actually be operating outside the cause/effect light-cone, not
inside it as I had originally imagined.

Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621***          pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay
5049 Walker Dr. #91103                  214/480-1659 (work)
The Colony, TX 75056-1120               214/370-5363 (home)
(a suburb of Dallas, TX)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 May 85 1327-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #172
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Lee & Russell,
                       Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Lee's Master series
Date: 17 May 85 21:14:54 GMT

I have a question.  I have copies of Tanith Lee's "Night's Master",
"Death's Master", and "Delusion's Master".  Someone once mentioned
that this series contained 4 books.  Is this true?  If so, what is
the fourth?

Thanks...
                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: duke!ndd@topaz.arpa (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Eric Frank Russel & 1 question
Date: 14 May 85 15:53:58 GMT

bottom@katadn.DEC writes:
> Seeing as how Eric Frank Russell has been mentioned I thought I'd
>throw in my pitch for one of his better books, Men, Martians and
>Machines. It's been years since I read it but if you can find it
>read it.

Men, Martians and Machines was recently reprinted as part of a
series of classic science fiction stories. I have forgotten the
publisher and editors, but I was very pleased to get a hard-back
copy; my paper-back version was purchased in 1965 and is very
fragile. However, I was disappointed to see that the two texts did
not match; the more recent printing had been Americanized. I clearly
remember a spanner becoming a wrench; there may be other examples.
It kind of irritates me, since I learned a lot of interesting words
from books, words that I might not have learned if everything was
written in some 'standard' American english.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I
Date: 15 May 85 20:14:53 GMT

>     "I hadn't liked his work until I met him, but
>      I couldn't stand liking him so much and not liking
>      his books, so I made myself read them until I
>      liked them." (1)
>
> This quote exemplifies what is so difficult about science fiction
> and its relation to its public. Since it is such an insular (some
> would say inbred) community, there is a wonderful "personal"
> nature of the relationship between author and reader that does not
> really exist in any other genre (which I notice, most other forms
> of popular writing do not refer to themselves as a "genre", but
> that's something else altogether...). Fine. There is nothing wrong
> with a public being in closer contact with an author, as long as
> that contact does not downgrade any given person's ability to
> judge and appreciate. Unfortunately, this degradation of
> critical faculties is unavoidable, just by human nature, and it
> takes a very strong sense of self to keep it in check. The above
> statement puts it very succinctly - and is a very good example of
> what is so often wrong with science fiction fandom and its
> rationale for giving accolades or insults.

Hi there.  The quote was, of course, mine.  That is only one of the
things that moves me to answer.  I will not apologize for the
length; anyone can skip it and yours was a carefully thought out
essay that deserves to be answered.

What you say is not only wrong, but dangerously wrong.  Should
anyone with hopes of writing read it, and believe it, his career
will likely be shot before it gets started.  I am not unfamiliar
with the kind of thinking going on here.  It is the romanticizing of
the arts.  Taking this seriously is fine for critics and historians,
but for a writer to do so is pure poison.

The notion that SF writers and fans are in closer touch than in most
genres is true.  The effect of this is to present to the writer more
information on how is work is being taken than is common.  To say
that this is inherently a bad thing is to fall into the trap of
feeling that an artist should be insensitive to the public's
response to his art.  Once again, we have the romance of the artist.
But the JOB of the artist is to evoke emotion, and to deepen the
viewer's knowledge of the world around him by bringing out and
exposing the contradictions that operate on his, the viewer's or
reader's, life.

In other words, NO artist can create art that will move someone with
whom he has nothing in common.  The greatest artists are those who
are most able to transcend that cultural differences that separate
men to arrive at the underlying similarities.

A common milieu between writer and reader deepens the unity between
them, and therefore makes even more sharp that the conflicts in the
life of the artist, expressed through his art, are also there in the
life of the reader.  Should the artist feel he is creating art
"above" the common man, he is no longer engaging in art, he is
engaging in masterbation.

To be clear, you are not saying all that I am attributing to you,
but I sense it in your attitude and so feel driven to respond.

> Dostoevsky was, by all accounts, an extremely contentious and
> obnoxious individual, who was prone to fits of rage and
> drunkenness; a man who died without many friends, mainly because
> he drove them off. Yet he is one of the finest writers of all
> time. His work is a product of himself; I'm not saying we have to
> divorce the man from the words.  But given the usual nature of
> science fiction, if he happened to be a writer in that field
> today, he probably wouldn't get published, he certainly wouldn't
> win any awards, and he would definitely not gain any great
> appreciation from the science fiction readers and establishment.
> This is not conjecture; this is fact.

No, this is nonsense.  First of all, no one in the publishing
industry would know anything about him when his manuscript first
appeared.  If it were good, it would be published.  This is exactly
the strength of Science Fiction.  If you write good SF, you can
publish.  This is true to a lesser extent in mysteries, and almost
nowhere else.  But it is a low-paying field, and therefore the
opportunity exists to take chances on unknowns.

If what you say is true, Harlan Ellison would never have published,
nor would Jerry Pournelle (in the latter case, this might have been
nice, but never mind) to pick just two examples.  Neither of these
people are well-liked (or were; I'm told Ellison is changing) but
both are successful, and both have won awards.  Now, there is
nevertheless some truth to what you say about awards--as long as we
are discussing the Hugo and not the Nebula--but even here the truth
is very limited.

All right, yes; the Hugo can be and sometimes has been a popularity
contest.  The Nebula has never been. Furthermore, if a writer can
only sell to Fans (meaning those who have some contact with anything
that can be called the Science Fiction Community) he will never be a
successful author.  If he were to be ostracized by these fans to the
extent that NO fan would buy his books, the drop in sales would be
noticeable but not crippling.

Just as a side note, by the way, have you been following the
comments on TO REIGN IN HELL?  If those who have been attacking it
have been holding back out of affection for me, I don't want to hear
their real opinions.

> And the hardest fact of all for many fans to swallow, which few of
> them have, is that it is often the most disagreeable people who
> write the greatest literature. Our most tortured souls, our
> outcasts, our misanthropes. Mark Twain. Edgar Allen Poe.
> Sinclair Lewis. John Steinbeck. Ambrose Bierce (to whom science
> fiction owes a great deal for writing a number of definitive
> "tomato surprise" stories). And even more recently, Norman Mailer,
> Gore Vidal, Truman Capote, Tennessee Williams! Let's be honest -
> almost all great writers, even if they were likable, had some
> very horrible personality traits, often in the extreme. Alcoholism
> and drug abuse seem to be the congenital defects of writers,
> coupled with a large streak of self-destructiveness.  Now, it's
> true that there are many likable people who could fit into this
> company. But the point is that someone's congeniality is not his
> or her writing. It just flat out has no bearing whatsoever on the
> quality of his or her prose.

It is interesting to see the list of those you consider great
writers.  Twain; yes.  But if you are implying that he was an
unpleasant man, you are drastically overstating the case.  Sinclair
Lewis; okay.  But Poe?  "Greatest literature"???  Steinbeck?
Certainly--sometimes.  On a good day.  As for your current choices,
I can't believe you are serious.  Truman Capote writing great
literature?  For whom?  I once thought the term self-indulgent was
invented to describe him.  And Mailer doesn't even have Capote's
occasional gift for turn of phrase.  I read SF because most (not
all) of the best writers are working there.  If you are going to
mention current "literature" that is worth reading, you should at
least mention Salinger, who isn't consistent but is better than most
of the ones you mention (I'll concede the point on Williams--he
really is good, most of the time).

As you say, someone's congeniality has no bearing on the quality of
his prose.  Think about that-- it runs both ways.

> A good friend of mine works for a newspaper. She's written all her
> life.  She's a wonderful human being from whom I've learned an
> incredible amount. She's a very likable person, the kind who
> draws people into conversations, who listens, who relates. But she
> can't write fiction for jack. No ifs, ands, or buts - she's just
> not good at it. Now am I supposed to start liking her writing
> because I like her? Sure, she's a close friend, and I'll do more
> than just give her the benefit of the doubt. But to "make myself
> read them until I like them", to bludgeon myself into liking her
> fiction, is to go against everything for which great, even good
> writing stands. It downgrades literature of any sort, takes it
> from being an art or a craft, to being a popularity contest.  And
> that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Why?  I have, several times, had the pleasure of eating at The
Bakery, a fine, continental restaurant in Chicago.  I have even
made the 8-hour trip to Chicago to eat there.  I also enjoy eating
at little diner called "Key's" in St. Paul that the tiniest step
above being a greasy spoon.  The Bakery has good food; eating at
"Key's" is pleasant.  I don't feel that by enjoying eating at
"Key's" I am insulting Chef Szathmary.  They are not equal, I know
the difference, and I can enjoy both.  I feel I am richer thereby.

I also read the Destroyer novels.  In no way can they be called
good.  Nevertheless, I enjoy them.  I do not feel my appreciation of
Twain suffers because I can be entertained by pulp adventure.

> Vincent Van Gogh was a tortured, insane, and lonely man. Norman
> Rockwell was basically a nice guy. I probably would not have
> enjoyed being around Van Gogh, while Norman and I would quite
> possibly have gotten along famously.  So I should, by the above
> quoted argument, attempt to reach a deeper appreciation of
> Rockwell's work due to my personal fondness for him. In other
> words, if I like him so much as a person, I certainly would like
> his work.  But no matter how much I tried, Norman Rockwell would
> never be one millionth of Vincent Van Gogh, would never possess
> one iota of Van Gogh's genius.

No.  But if you can enjoy his work, there will be that much more
that you can enjoy.  Whence comes the notion that to enjoy the
"sub-great" is to diminish enjoyment of the truly great?  Take it on
its own level and Rockwell is fine.  The problem with Van Gogh is
that there was only one of him.

> Isaac Asimov, from everything I've heard, is a gentleman -
> well-mannered, considerate, helpful to young authors, interested
> in new talent. Some of his work possesses merit - his non-fiction.
> We'll forget about his poetry ("Dr. A."  indeed!). His fiction is
> not that good - yes, it shows some marginal craftsmanship, some
> workable ideas, but it's not really that good, as fiction.  His
> characters are at best two-dimensional, his societies are not
> really that interesting unless you like space opera, and his
> writing style is pretty nondescript and undeveloped. His plots are
> rather predictable, and his themes are shopworn after 40 years.
> Whatever he had to say about robots he said a long, long time ago
> (Karel Kapek said it with much more depth and understanding in
> "R.U.R.", which predates any of the Asimov robot stories). He has
> made a career out of mediocrity, out of the standard
> "Scientist-With-Great-Idea-Explains-It-All-To-Young-Whippersnapper"
> story so unfortunately common in science fiction (especially the
> misnamed "Golden Age Of Science Fiction"). There's nothing wrong
> with that; believe me, the last thing I would do is take cheap
> potshots at someone who actually makes a living by being a writer,
> even if I think he's not a very good one.  But nothing he has
> written even comes close to Gene Wolfe. This isn't mere opinion -
> I don't truck with the idea of absolute relativism in art.  It is
> probably an overstatement, but Asimov is to Wolfe as Rockwell is
> to Van Gogh.

I see.  Well, I quite agree--QUITE agree--with your assessments of
the relative literary merits of Dr. Asimov and Gene Wolfe.  In fact,
I don't think the comparison IS an overstatement.  Yes, Asimov is to
Wolfe as Rockwell is to Van Gogh.  I've never met Dr. Asimov, but
from everything I've heard, he gets away with acting as he does only
because of his fame and success.  He is--never mind.  This is a
semi-public forum.  But I can safely say that, from all reports, Dr.
Asimov is not a pleasant companion if you happen to be female.
Okay.  I HAVE met Gene Wolfe.  On a panel, as the center of a group,
on the fringe of a group, in letters, or in a tete-a-tete, you will
never find a finer, wittier, more charming gentleman.  Now, where
does that leave you?

> Appreciation of good writing takes many forms, and it is arguably
> less critically bankrupt to like an author for his work than to
> like his work for his personality. A writer and his work are
> certainly not separate; but it is the printed word which must be
> judged, because that is the primary function of a writer - not to
> be a nice human being, or a good father, or a temperate drinker,
> but to be a good writer. Anything else is superfluous,
> unimportant, icing on the cake. A great author can be forgiven
> anything in his life, no matter how heinous; a bad writer can be
> the finest man in the world, but he cannot be forgiven being a bad
> writer. If science fiction were not a field of literary endeavor
> (and who knows? Sometimes it really does seem to be something
> totally different), none of this would matter. But it is, and it
> is incumbent upon readers of science fiction to remember this, and
> judge accordingly, and not allow personalities to affect that
> judgment.

I will agree with this.  Your notion that there is a widespread
judging of literary quality based on personality is, however,
incorrect.  The real problem, which would be well worth addressing,
is: the general of lack of criticism of any kind.  You are a fan;
this is obvious.  You, like most fans, have a drastically over blown
notion of the importance of fandom.  Yes, we aren't getting much
serious literary criticism, but this has little or nothing to do
with fandom.  Read LeGuin's essays on why American SF has generally
been ignored by the critics.  No, it isn't fandom--fandom just isn't
that important to SF.

There are interesting things going on in Science Fiction right now.
On the one hand, with the success of Star Wars and Star Trek, we have
an increase in popularity, with the similar increase in cheap
adventure, with little or no substance.  At the same time, there is
the emergence of exciting, new approaches, new themes, and higher
literary standards.  If fandom has had any effect at all on either
of these I think that, as I said near the beginning of this
response, it has been mostly a good one.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 85 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #173
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:

            Art - Gormenghast,
            Books - Brust & Ford & Heinlein & Herbert &
                    Stapledon (2 msgs) & Zelazny,
            Films - Star Trek III & Dragonslayer &
                    2001/2010 (2 msgs),
            Television - V,
            Miscellaneous - SF Bookstores (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 85 21:46:12 pdt
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Gormenghast

Yes, the cover artwork is excellent.  So are the books.  I heard
somewhere that Sting has the movie rights for these books.  Does
anyone know more about this?

-s

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: To Reign in Hell (I liked it)
Date: 18 May 85 18:18:10 GMT

Steve:

I just this morning finished _To Reign In Hell_ and I had one of
those *good* feelings when I put the book down.  I mean, I really
liked what I had just finished.

I re-read Zelazny's foreword, and I totally agree with everything he
said, and more.

It truly is an engaging tale...  (And it has delicious word/thought/
sayings play sprinkled throughout.)

But, Lord!  I sure did want Satan and Yaweh to have a let's-sit-d
own-and-talk-before-things-get-out-of-hand conversation.  But then,
if they had gotten together early on, the tale would have spun out
differently...  And I liked it just as it came off the loom.

Dennis L. McKiernan
...ihnp4!cbuxc!dim

PS: Back in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that
Milton drew upon but a single line in the Bible to weave his
original tale.  You see, in the elder days, Lucifer (light-bringer)
was the name given to the morning star. And some biblical person (a
king?)  glanced up at the morning stars and espying Lucifer says
something like, "O mighty Lucifer, how far thou hast fallen from
heaven."  The king(?) was simply refering to the nearness of the
dawn, but Milton took this line and based the entire mythos of the
heavenly revolt upon it...
                                  DLMcK

------------------------------

Subject: "The Dragon Waiting", by John M. Ford
Date: 19 May 85 03:04:39 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

I wish to add my vote to the strong praise for "The Dragon Waiting".
It has been a long time since I've read a historical fiction of such
power and clarity, where every second chapter is not devoted to one
character getting into another's bed.  Ford's writing is clear,
lucid, and swiftly moving, with a clear grasp of where it's going.
Readers who found this in "The Final Reflection" are likely to be
even more impressed with it in "The Dragon Waiting", which is a
larger and, for my preferences, better story.

I found my moderately good knowledge of German useful in places, as
some sentences are given in German.  I can't tell how easily a
non-German speaker might pick up the meaning from the context.  I
don't recall whether there are any in Italian, though I have the
impression there are one or two.  A little knowledge of Welsh (which
he often calls "Cymric", probably to help one feel the viewpoint of
the characters from Wales, whose name in Welsh is "Cymru") would
help with a few of the place names, but it's not at all essential:
the only Welsh word in the book is "ie", which, to judge by its
context, must mean "yes".

Personally, I enjoy this sort of thing.  I find it adds to the
flavour and dimension of the story, and it gives you a better feel
for the characters to have a taste of what is normal for them.

I'm not good at reviews, so I'll stop before I get carried away.
But I'll give this recommendation: if you like John Ford, or The
Final Reflection, or powerful historic fiction (derived very closely
from fact), or fantasy where the laws are as rigid as natural
physical law (and attempting to break them has equally unpleasant
consequences), read "The Dragon Waiting".

   Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz.arpa (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Date: 16 May 85 23:09:58 GMT

wab@reed.UUCP (William Baker) writes:
>> What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS?
>>
>       The main problem with Starship Troopers is that it
>glorifies war.  John Rico, the main character, spends most of the
>book watching his buddies get blown away, all the while moralizing
>to himself on the necessity of war.  In the future of Starship
>Troopers, the planetary government consists exclusively of veterans
>and only veterans can vote.  The overall theme is that people who
>do not wish to serve in the military are social parasites.
>
>       However, even this premise can be turned on its head.  The
>most obvious example of this is Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War".
>Haldeman takes Heinlein's premise and some of his plot and turns
>the values around.  It is exactly what one would expect from
>someone who read Heinlein avidly but also served in Vietnam
>(Haldeman).  Great stuff.

        Another book which turns the idea on its head, and which is
even closer to Starship Troopers in plot structure &c is "Naked to
the Stars" by (I think) Phillip K Dick.

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}
   !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@topaz.arpa (I.P.Gordon)
Subject: Re: The Possibly Proper Death Litany (aka, apparently, "the
Subject: Agnostics Prayer")
Date: 27 May 85 19:53:07 GMT

There is also an "Agnostic's Prayer" in _Chapter_House_Dune_ by
Herbert.  I won't include a spoiler about it. Read the book to find
out.
                I.P.Gordon

------------------------------

From: sdlvax!dk@topaz.arpa (dk)
Subject: Last and First Men
Date: 16 May 85 18:28:05 GMT

Many years back I read a long tome called

        Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon.

It was published by Penguin (or at least the copy I had was).
Subsequently I thought advancing years would alter my outlook on it,
so I tried to find it. No dice.  The old Penguin copy had gone
walkies, and it is now out of print.

Does anyone know of the book, and if so of any existing copies.

I haven't looked hard - net news is sooooo easy.

Does anyone have any comments on the book as well?

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Last and First Men
Date: 19 May 85 23:24:28 GMT

A request was made for Olaf Stapledon's "Last and First Men."

My edition of The Last and First Men was purchased from Dover Books,
in an edition with Starmaker.  They still published it as of 1984.
They also have Odd John and Sirius, by the same author.  The last
one is a favorite of mine.

Dover Books address is:  Dover Publications
                         31 East 2nd Street
                         Mineola, NY   11501

By the way--this is a fun publisher.  They specialize in reprints of
otherwise out of print books.  They put out lots of neat stuff like
reprints of Newton and Galileo, art books, books on chess, the
occult, and so on.  The books are good quality large paperbacks, and
are pretty inexpensive.  They will send a catalog if you ask.

                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 May 85 02:16:00 edt
From: "David W. Levine" <dwl%brandeis.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Trumps of doom

I snagged a copy of Trumps of Doom as soon as it came out and read
it at full tilt (Zelazny's style encourages reading with the RPMs
up)

I liked it an awful lot, look forward to the sequel and wish it was
already here. I don't think the ending was terribly sadistic or
unreasonable, merely tantalizing. This is nothing new, Zelazny likes
to leave his readers hanging on the edge of their seats. Several of
the first five Amber books leave things in a mess and the start of
almost every Amber work is an exercise in keeping up with the poor
confused protagonist.

I don't really mind things being left where they were. Zelazny has
explained most of the major questions he raised in the first three
quaters of the book and clearly set the stage for the next book. He
just won't tell us how his protagonist is going to do the undoable.
That's not so bad. Besides, it gives us all something to look
forward to.
                       "Look ma, no spoilers"
                                                - David W. Levine
                                               dwl @ brandeis.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 May 85 00:45:15-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook

     I just bought the LaserDisc version of this.  Has anybody
noticed any of these really glaring flaws:
 . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the
   Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!)
 . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried
   Spock in space without knowing any better?

     You may ask, who is "Spook"?  Why, the son of Spock and Saavik,
obviously!!

------------------------------

From: hpfclp!fritz@topaz.arpa (fritz)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 18 May 85 01:42:00 GMT

I also loved DRAGONSLAYER (although I could have done without a few
scenes, like the baby dragons munching on the girl!).

I thought the dragon must obviously have been done by two different
groups: one did the closeup shots (all the Land_of_the_Giant-type
dragon-on-a-crane effects that were obviously huge props), and
another, VERY talented group did the breath-taking scenes of the
dragon in flight.  The scene of the battle between the dragon and
the wizard are about the best shots of a dragon I have ever seen.

Gary Fritz
Hewlett Packard
Ft Collins, CO
{ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet...
Date: 17 May 85 17:35:12 GMT

1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the
   movie.
2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the
   ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you
   think that a totally irrelevant, unintelligible ending is a good
   thing just so they leave the theater thinking.
3) I didn't measure the obelisk thingys. You really did?

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet...
Date: 19 May 85 17:13:13 GMT

>>  Also, the obelisk-shaped thingies were not in any way of 1X4X9
>> proportion, and why was that such a big deal?  Etc., etc., etc.
>
>  ...gosh...I thought they were...um, go to a math book, look up
>the words "golden rectangle" in the index, then get back to us...

What the heck are you talking about?  The book 2001 and the film
2010 both say the slab is a 1x4x9 rectangular prism.  Neither film
shows the slab this way, making it look more like an ebony door
(without handle).  This has nothing whatsoever to do with a Golden
Rectangle.  That is a two dimensonal rectangle whose length is phi
times its width.  phi is (1+sqroot(5))/2.  Nobody has mentioned this
rectangle in relation to Clarke till now.  What does a Golden
rectangle have to do with anything in this discussion?

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Fri 17 May 85 18:22:40-EDT
From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: V answer...

In reply to ZSTAMIR's request for information on the star-child
(elizabeth) of V:

  Elizabeth was one of two twins borne by robin in the second
mini-series (The LONG movies that, at least on american TV, were
split up into 4 parts each). That wouldn't be so special, but these
twins were conceived with...guess who...a VISITOR!  The twins were
born very close to each other, but Elizabeth was the nice-looking
one. The other one was very cute, but it was a bit green and scaly.
For all those with squeamish hearts, it died soon after it's birth.
   Elizabeth, at the end of the second mini-series, saves the
universe by zapping the mothership's nuclear detonator into the OFF
mode with some sort of as-yet unexplained power. She is supposed to
symbolize peace and unity between two races, and other stuff like
that.

Hope that cleared it up a bit...this is my first contribution to
SF-LOVERS...
(editorial comment : I LOVE THIS DIGEST!!)

Glen Daniels (ARPA : GDaniels%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 May 1985 19:03:48 EDT
From: Joe.Newcomer@cmu-sei.arpa
Subject: SF bookstore list

Well, I'm back to reading SF-lovers again, after a multiyear hiatus.
Some time ago I had an idea, motivated by some enlightened
self-interest, of maintaining a network directory of bookstores
which handle SF.  Or does anyone know of such a list already in
existence?  I may soon be doing some travelling, and given that I
may have only a few hours in any one city would like to maximize its
effectiveness by hitting the one or two good SF bookstores in that
city.  I'm sure others might feel the same way.  If there is no such
list, I will try to maintain one and send periodic updates to
SF-lovers via some distribution mechanism negotiated with the
editor.

The sort of questions I need to know are:

Name of store
Address
Phone No.

What categories of material?

New SF hardbacks
New SF paperbacks
New SF periodicals
Used SF hardbacks
Used SF paperbacks
Used SF periodicals
Comics
Comix
Role-playing game materials/publications
Mystery
Non-U.S. imprints (British, Canadian, Australian)
Foreign Language SF
General bookstore

Discounted new materials?

I would also appreciate getting comments: size of stock, timeliness,
friendliness of people, willing to mail large purchases, accept
check, charge?  Interesting features, people, etc.  If they are
complete turkeys and should be avoided, it might be nice to know but
I don't know if that info can be published non-libelously.  (Perhaps
a T-rating: 0 = first class folks, do yourself a favor and stop in;
10 = avoid being in the same city as these clowns).

General instructions on how to get there (e.g. "2 blocks West of
Angel tube stop"; "on Mumble street 2 miles west of downtown
Fooburg")

Please do not include chains such as Waldenbooks, B. Dalton,
Atlantic, etc.

If I've missed any categories of interest, feel free to supply them.
Send mail directly to Newcomer@cmu-sei.

Example:

Far-Out Books
331 Fubar Ave.
Mumble, PA 15140
(412)555-1212

(2 miles south of RR station, just off Main St.; next to Burger
Blight)

Used SF, hardback & paperback; New SF discounted 15% list.  Standard
line of new SF, several hundred used paperbacks.  Has lots of
British SF lines. D&D supplies.  Accepts used SF in trade, 20% of
cover price paid.  Does mail order.  Cash only, or gold ingots.
Failed to ship one large order; put it back on shelves by mistake.

I probably will maintain names, cities and zipcodes as database
items and the rest as prose, at least for now.  The number of good
stores per city is sufficiently small that linear search is not
unreasonable.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 May 1985 05:40:33-PDT
From: leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (The Natural Professional )
Subject: London SF Bookstores

The best SF Bookshop in London is 'Forbidden Planet' which is at 23
Denmark St London WC1. Its almost in Soho and around that area are /
were several more.

Andy Leslie
Sandhurst, Surrey, England.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 85 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #174
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:

            Books - Duane & Moorcock & Wells (4 msgs) &
                    Wilhelm & Berserker Stories & SF Titles &
                    Writing About Writing,
            Films - James Bond & 2001/2010 & Best Shorts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gitpyr!roy@topaz.arpa (Roy J. Mongiovi)
Subject: Paperback "Door into Shadow"
Date: 17 May 85 22:45:31 GMT

Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow" by
Diane Duane this past week.  I was startled to find, when I got it
home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which will be
released in August.  Is this something new, or have I been asleep?
I thought the usual way is to publish volume 1 first, and then
follow it up with volume 2, not vice versa....

Is this a new way to sucker money out of us?  Did the publisher take
statistics and determine that it wasn't good enough to just split
single novels up into several volumes to make more bucks?  (As an
aside, I bet that if "The Lord of the Rings" was published today it
would be in five volumes instead of three.  Sigh.)  Maybe too many
people buy volume 1 and then decided not to read volume 2.  What
gives?

Roy J. Mongiovi.
Office of Computing Services.
User Services.
Georgia Institute of Technology.
Atlanta GA 30332.
(404)894-6163
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!bllklly@topaz.arpa (Bill Kelly)
Subject: Elric at the End of Time
Date: 20 May 85 02:44:15 GMT

I just finished reading Michael Moorcock's "Elric at the End of
Time".  I wouldn't recommend it unless you're a Moorcock/Elric
completist.  Although it's billed as 'the seventh book of Elric of
Melnibone,' it actually contains just two Elric short stories, which
I would not rank among the best of the series.  These occur during
some of the earlier books, with (weak) plot devices to keep them
from contradicting what was already written. ("...you will recall
every incident that occurred...but only in your dreams.)  If you're
a fan of Moorcock's other series(es?), you may enjoy the title
story, which brings together Elric with Una Persson et al.
Otherwise, the story is pretty inconsequential.
   There is an interesting essay by Moorcock on the symbolism and
philosophy behind the Elric stories.  Again, for completists.
   The rest is pretty much filler.  There are several sword and
sorcery stories about Sojan Shieldbearer, which Moorcock wrote at
17.  To tell the truth, they're not very good.  There's also a
history of New Worlds magazine, and an amusing, unrelated short
story.
   I was disappointed by this book, because it's not what I expected
-- another volume in the Elric series.  That's what the front and
back cover and inside page implied to me.  That'll teach me to look
for a table of contents!  Don't be fooled.
   P.S.  Another great Michael Whelan cover -- almost worth the
price of the book.  Now if only he could get it through his head
that Elric's strength comes from sorcery and drugs, not from bulging
muscles!

Bi||    {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly
Ke||y   1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 May 85 13:40:35 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: H.G. Wells

From Peter Kendell:
> From Barry Margolin:
>> Just to set the record straight, the film The Man Who Could Work
>> Miracles is based on the short story of the same name by a rel-
>> atively unknown author named H.G Wells ...
>
> FLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAME
> H.G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? To speak of
> one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous....

Calm down, Mr. Kendell.  Mr. Margolin was merely using a relatively
unknown rhetorical form which we silly people call "Irony".

        I-RO-NY n.
        . . . 1. a method of humorous or subtly sarcastic
        expression in which the intended meaning of the
        words used is the direct opposite of their usual
        sense [the _irony_ of calling a stupid plan "clever"].

Trust me on this.  No even moderately literate reader of SF (in
fact, almost no moderately literate readers of non-SF) is unaware of
H.G.  Wells and his writings.
                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]
<vocabulary is my business>

* "Webster's New World Dictionary" is a trademark of Simon &
        Schuster, not to mention Bell Labs.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 18 May 85 02:47:07-PDT
From: Bruce (:-) <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: H. G. Wells

>> ... the film ["The Man Who Could Work Miracles"] is based on the
>> short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named
>> H. G. Wells.
>
> H. G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? ... To
> speak of one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous.

                            H. G. WELLS
                     A biography by Bruce Leban

H. G. (HuGo) Wells was born in 1946 at the age of 80 in Bromley,
Kent, England.  In 1888, he graduated from London University with
honors as a Bachelor of Science.  He taught science for several
years after that, but his first true claim to fame came when he
invented an invisibility drug in 1897.  This, unfortunately, led to
his death at the hands of a mob.  If it had not been for his
subsequent invention of the world's first working time machine in
1895, he would never have lived to write his greatest works.

Wells anticipated many modern scientific accomplishments including
the tank (in /The Land Ironclads/), the submarine (in /Twenty
Thousand Leagues Under the Sea/, written under his Jules Verne
pseudonym) and the rocket.  The HuGo award is named after him to
honor this genius.

He appeared in a number of motion pictures including the radio
version of "The War of the Worlds" (under the pseudonym Orson
Well(e)s) and a cameo in the title song of "The Rocky Horror Picture
Show" (as Claude Rains).

--- beepy-el (Bruce Leban, Hewlett-Packard, Palo Alto, CA)

UUCP:   {hplabs|hplabs|hplabs|...}!leban
ARPA:   leban%hplabs.csnet

<"Biography is my business">

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is bits)
Subject: H G Wells: obscure
Date: 18 May 85 22:32:26 GMT

>From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
>
>> From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>> There is even a reference in the story to a similar story in the
>> film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES.
>
>Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the
>short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named
>H.G.  Wells.

Er, Barmar--you're kidding, right?

Remember MIT Lecture Series Committee, and how once in awhile they
show "Time After Time"?  Remember the protagnist?  Didn't everybody
who had $4 go see this move when it came out?  How about "The Time
Machine"--another popular, if older, science fiction movie.

See if I believe you next telethon.  :-)

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 05:37:01-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: The obscure H. G. Wells

> From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell)
>>From: Barry Margolin <Margolin@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
>>
>>Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the
>>short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named
>>H.G.  Wells....
>>                                        barmar
>
> H.G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? To speak of
> one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous. Many of
> his stories (The Time Machine - it invented the time-travel genre,
> War of the Worlds - better written and more exciting + logical
> than any of its successors) stand up today better than the
> forgotten work of later writers.

You're joking, right? Well, I'm sure that Barry would've been happy
to have put a :-) in his posting, but how on Earth would he guess
that anyone would think he wasn't making a joke? Sheesh.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 1985  03:13 EDT
From: Rob MacLachlan <RAM@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Kate Wilhelm's Welcome Chaos

     I found this book to be exciting to read, but was disappointed
when in the end because many of the important parts didn't make a
great deal of sense.

                   ****** Spoiler Warning ******

The basic plot is that there is an immortality formula with one big
catch: there a is 50% chance it will make you dead.  The thing that
I find incredible is that Ms. Wilhelm seems to think that given
these odds, everyone will want to take the cure.  In this situation,
I would certainly wait at least a couple decades to see if the odds
will improve.

Admittedly it explained a number of times that it kills 50% and
there is nothing that you can do about it, but there is no reason to
suppose that this will remain the case once the entire world
scientific establishment devotes its energies to the problem.

I also find the nature of the cure rather unlikely.  It is a
substance fortuitously discovered in a bacteria culture which
magically revamps your immune system.  The ways that your body can
fail are many and complex.  I doubt that any one substance, let
alone a natural one, will be the answer to "immortality".  If
substantial life prolongation is obtained, it will probably be
through a large collection of carefully designed treatments.

  Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri 17 May 85 10:18:51-MDT
From: Peter Badovinatz <BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: Berserker Stories

Hi.

I just received my copy of _Limits_ by Larry Niven (through the
SFBC) and read "A Teardrop Falls", a berserker story.  Incredible as
it may seem, this is my first berserker story.  As a result, it has
gotten me intererested in reading more berserker stories.

So, my request is actually quite simple.  I would like pointers to
either berserker short stories or novels, and possibly some opinions
as to their quality.  Please reply directly to *me*, not the net.  I
can post a summary of what I receive to the net to save net space.

Thanks in advance,

Peter R Badovinatz             ARPA:  badovinatz@utah-20
Univ of Utah CS Dept           UUCP:  ...!utah-cs!badovin

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Pet Peeve with SF Titles
Date: 18 May 85 19:13:27 GMT

This is one of my pet peeves with some science fiction writers.
Back in the days of the Saturday afternoon serials they would give
them flambouyant names line KING OF THE ROCKET MEN.  This would
conjure up in kiddees' minds some society of rocket scientists
somewhere and some super-scientist ruling over it.  Actually it was
about one man with a rocket suit named Jeff King.  So the "rocket
men" are all one man named King.  This title promises one sort of
story and the film delivers something fairly different with the
implicit statement "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood our title."

In fact, we see the same game played by respected science fiction
authors.  A prime example just came to my attention.  Orsen Scott
Card titled a recent novel ENDER'S GAME.  That title conjures up
interesting ideas.  In fact many games can be turned over in the
end-game.  Players in various games can "shoot-the-moon" as they see
some sort of game coming to an end.  Particularly since they have
nothing to lose.  Somebody with a good endgame plan can make any
sort of game interesting.  This is just the principle that might
make Card's alien invasion story interesting.  It may even be there.
But I just read a review of the story that said the story took its
name from the main character named Ender.  "Oh, sorry if you
misunderstood the title."
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@topaz.arpa (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Re: Writing about writing
Date: 18 May 85 00:23:22 GMT

The title of the Ursula LeGuin book is _The Language of the Night:
Essays on Fantasy and Science Fiction_.  Highly recommended.

Ellen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 85 08:11 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007

>  From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
> Also, occasionally the film maker wants to make a faithful
> adaptation but does not have the rights to the story.  Sound
> far-fetched?  They are adapting the film but don't have the rights
> to do the story?  Ian Fleming sold only a few of his novels to the
> films but he sold all of the titles.  That is why the James Bond
> films soured after THUNDERBALL.

Not exactly.  Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert
Broccoli.  The only case where he sold the title but not the story
was for The Spy Who Loved Me.  Fleming was somewhat embarrassed
about this book, for which I can hardly blame him.  On Her Majesty's
Secret Service followed the book to the letter (with the exception
of being out of sequence - it should have preceded You Only Live
Twice instead of following it).  The rest of the films ignored the
books because the producer felt that it was SF hardware, lots of
women, exotic locations and car/boat/plane/...  chases which made
money.

Of course, there were some pretty good reasons NOT to use the
stories as Fleming wrote them.  Moonraker the book was pretty dated
by the time the film (perhaps the series' worst) was made.  And For
Your Eyes Only, Octopussy and From A View To A Kill were all too
short to be used as the basis for films, although the film of
Octopussy DID use the short stories Octopussy and The Property Of A
Lady to pretty good effect.

Anyway, now that the producers have run out of Fleming's titles (the
only ones left are from a couple of short stories, and somehow I
don't think we'll see a 007 film called The Hildebrand Rarity), they
have the rights to make up their own titles as well as the story
lines.

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: 2001/2010 non-Golden Rectangle (Black Monolith)
Date: 20 May 85 16:51:35 GMT

Ebony door?  Well, by golly, it seems to me that it *was* a door.
And as far as its "stated" dimensions (1x4x9), it certainly ain't no
Golden Rectangle, but the dimensions *are* the first three primes
squared.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 17 May 85 18:31:10-EDT
From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Best of shorts poll

Small query for all of you out there...

In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like to
have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see which
ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no other
reason...

Those which I feel are the best so-far:

"The Wizard of Speed and Time" -- Mike Jitlov
   (Great effects - funny - billions of hidden messages...)

"Bambi vs. Godzilla" -- ???
   (no explanation needed)

"Variations on a Theme : the Princess and the Dragon" (or something
like that) -- ???
   (Many hilarious spoofs on the classic princess-dragon-prince
story.  Watch for it if you haven't seen it...)

Any and all replies would be appreciated. Thanks, all!

Glen Daniels
ARPA : GDaniels%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
CHAOS: GDaniels@MIT-OZ

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 May 85 1129-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #175
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 175

Today's Topics:

              Books - Grinnell & Sequels & A Request &
                      SF Titles,
              Films - Upcoming Movies,
              Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today &
                      Criticizing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 05:26:36-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: David Grinnell

> From: hpfcms!mpm@topaz.arpa (mpm)     (Mike McCarthy)
>     The name of the book is "Edge of Time" by David Grinnell.  Ace
> Books published it in the late 60s.  I too found it engrossing.
> In fact, I recently reread it and found that it remained a good
> read.  (You may find a copy in a used book store; there are lots
> of such shops in Denver.)  By the way, my old Ace books show that
> Grinnell wrote another book called "Across Time" (I think), which
> I've never read.

"David Grinnell" (who was, in reality, Donald Wollheim) wrote five
novels, plus another one in collaboration with Lin Carter. All were
published in hardcover by Avalon and in paperback by Ace, except for
the last book, which was a paperback original from Ace.

ACROSS TIME             1957
EDGE OF TIME            1958
THE MARTIAN MISSILE     1959
DESTINY'S ORBIT         1961-|-- (these two are connected)
DESTINATION: SATURN     1967-|  [with Carter]
TO VENUS! TO VENUS!     1970

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Subject: In re: J. Hawthorne's series flame
Date: 17 May 85 11:43:59 EDT (Fri)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>
Cc: crash!bnw@sdcsvax.ARPA

>     I agree with Jennifer that it is often difficult-to-impossible
>to figure out in advance that an author has presented us with the
>first book in a series.  ...  Series segments ought to be able to
>stand on their own merit.

I think the latter point is much the better.  Even if a book is
*touted* as being part of a series, I'm *still* offended by the
cliffhanger.  I just finished the 2nd volume in Gerrold's War of the
Chtorr series.  Gerrold can get you hooked in a story that's so
fast-moving and action-packed that you're almost afraid to put it
down 'cause you might miss something.  Then he denigrates his own
writing abilities by using a cheap hook--the cliffhanger--to try and
get you to read the next in the series.  It's like he thought he was
writing for Lost In Space--i.e., so bad that that's the only way to
get you to tune in next week.

If the writing was really bad, or the book really awful, then I
could excuse an author for trying *whatever* ploy he or she thought
might sell the next book.  It's like an ugly hooker wearing the
lowest-cut, brightest-red dress she can find.  <Watch *this*
analogy.  And set your flames to high.> But if someone I respect
feels that she has to wear that dress in order to be attractive,
then I'm embarrassed for her lack of self esteem; and if I'm the
intended audience (readership in this analogy), then I'm offended
that she thinks so little of *me*.

O.K., fire away.

------------------------------

From: columbia!eppstein@topaz.arpa (David Eppstein)
Subject: Yet another name that story
Date: 19 May 85 05:57:31 GMT

I read this short story a while back and have since forgotten where
and would like to read it again.  If I had to guess at where it
appeared I would say Analog a year or so back except I've looked
through my back issues and can't find it.

Anyway, the plot: It starts out with a (student, woman) psychologist
visiting another woman who's been put away as a schizophrenic.  Then
there's this sort of segue, and it ends up in the patient's
supposedly imaginary universe where there are only women and one of
the women is giving virgin birth to her daughter and the
psychologist person had been the crazy one but she's over it now.

No I'm not thinking of "Your faces oh my sisters, your faces filled
with light".  The double universe there is very similar but the plot
is not.

I guess replies should go by mail.  But you'll have to figure it out
from the header, because I have no idea who we talk to.

David Eppstein

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (P.S.CHISHOLM)
Subject: Re: Pet Peeve with SF Titles (ENDER'S GAME)
Date: 20 May 85 21:52:23 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
> Orsen Scott Card titled a recent novel ENDER'S GAME.  That title
> conjures up interesting ideas.  In fact many games can be turned
> over in the end-game.  Players in various games can
> "shoot-the-moon" as they see some sort of game coming to an end.
> Particularly since they have nothing to lose.  Somebody with a
> good endgame plan can make any sort of game interesting.  This is
> just the principle that might make Card's alien invasion story
> interesting.  It may even be there.  But I just read a review of
> the story that said the story took its name from the main
> character named Ender.  "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood the
> title."                       Mark Leeper     ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

<Prelude: do any of you remember the Point/Counterpoint takeoff that
Saturday Night Live used to do?  Jane Curtin would present a
slightly liberal, uncontroversial opinion.  Dan Ackroyd would look
at her in disgust and say, "Jane, you ignorant slut," after which
would follow a gross exaggeration of conservative views.>

Mark, you ignorant vid.

I'm sorry if watching all those childish " Sci Fi" movies has rotted
your brain to the point where you can't read anything more
complicated than credits.  Maybe pinning your hopes on such trash,
only to have them dashed against the cruel reality of Grade B
Hollywood refuse, has soured you to the point where you can no
longer dream, no longer hope, no longer do any more than pick nits
on peripheral issues.

But what can you expect from someone who thinks FIVE MILLION YEARS
TO EARTH is the greatest SF film ever made?

<Note to everyone: insert a LARGE smiley face over the above satire.
Note to Mark Leeper: Gee, just kidding.  Honest.  I'll even get my
article in on time this year.  Note to Evelyn Leeper: No, no, I
didn't mean it, don't hit me!>

Actually, Mark brings up a good point.  The title of ENDER'S GAME
really is a double entendre, and I didn't even realize it.  Yes,
it's about a game (or several games) played by Ender Wiggen, but
it's also about the final moves in . . . some other game.  One way
or another.  Sort of.  I ain't gonna spoil it for you: read the
book.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: ginsburg@ozone.DEC (MIKE GINSBURG DTN 231-6641)
Subject: Movies
Date: 18 May 85 21:29:04 GMT

Sci-Fi and Fantasy Movies Scheduled for Summer Release:
Extracted from the Boston Globe "CALENDAR" section May 16,1985.

Text in quotes is from the GLOBE.

"RETURN TO OZ" (MAY 24) - Walt Disney Studios- "The story relies
more on special effects than the old song and dance routine"

"COCOON" (June 7) - "science fiction adventure starring a vast array
of veteran stars" directed by Ron Howard ("SPLASH")

"THE GOONIES" (June 7) - Steven Spielberg "shrouded in secrecy" ...
"kids who discover a secret map that leads them into a ""thrilling
adventure""

"THE BRIDE" (June 21) - stars Sting (DUNE) and Jennifer Beals
(FLASHDANCE) "a remake of ""THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN""

"BACK TO THE FUTURE" (June 21) - produced by Steven Spielberg
"keeping a lid on the plot" ... "story of a contemporary teenager
who returns to the '50's and falls in love with his mother" Sounds
like an old Robert Silverberg story I read!

"RED SONJA" (June 28) - "sword, sex and sorcery epic" starring
Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sandahl Bergman.

"LIFEFORCE" (June 28) - "an astronaut who discovers a cargo of
frozen bodies on an alien spaceship" directed by Tobe Hooper ("TEXAS
CHAINSAW MASSACRE")

"THE BLACK CAULDRON" (July 12) - first major new Disney animation in
5 years.  "could be the summer's surprise hit" No mention of the
story but the title sounds promising.

"WEIRD SCIENCE" (July 12) - "sci-fi comedy"

"EXPLORERS" (July 12) - "another fantasy about kids and strange
happenings" directed by Joe Dante ("GREMLINS")

"MAD MAX - BEYOND THUNDERDOME" (July 12) - Tina Turner costars with
Mel Gibson.

"THE HEAVENLY KID" (July 19) - "teenage hotrodder sent back to Earth
as an angel to help a shy teenager"

"CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR" (August) - stars Daryl Hannah ("SPLASH")

                                        Enjoy,
                                        Mike Ginsburg
                                        DEC - Medical Systems Group
                                        Marlboro, Ma.
Apologies if someone's already sent this out.

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II
Date: 20 May 85 03:45:45 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
          PART II: Meet The New Hack, Same As The Old Hack

                          by Davis Tucker

What do we mean when we use the word "hack" in reference to an
author? This is often a very fuzzy phrase, and everyone has a
different definition. Mine is "an author who is merely competent,
and who does not attempt to improve."  Stasis is death, at least in
the creative world. Competency is a compliment to mechanics,
journalists, and airline pilots. It is a veiled insult (or a
left-handed compliment) to any creative person. To say that someone
is a "competent painter" means nothing. To be merely competent is to
never rise above a given level. In science fiction, competency and
mediocrity go hand in glove, dancing merrily into justifiable
oblivion.

We all have heard the lame excuse that science fiction has different
rules than mainstream fiction until it sounds like a broken record.
But all it is is an excuse for being a hack, or being lazy. I'll
agree that it has *more* rules: since there's much more imagination
and extrapolation involved, science fiction does require more
attention to detail and consistency. I could think of other rules,
also. But the basic fundamentals of mainstream fiction still apply -
realistic characterization, depth of understanding, plot
development, correct use of descriptive passages, realistic
dialogue, structural integrity, everything that is important to
literature. Stephen King, for all that we may think of him as a
wasted talent, knows this, and obeys all these "rules". But
incredibly, many science fiction writers get away with cheap puns,
absolutely wretched dialogue, ridiculously constructed plots,
inconsistent character motivation, terminal cuteness (Gidget's
Disease), and worst of all the "And-Then-He-Woke-Up" ending, or some
kind of deus ex machina ending (sometimes both together). And the
readers lap it up, and go to their conventions and sit around
watching Dr. Who or Star Trek reruns and listen to their favorite
author explain why he wrote his seventeenth novel on the same
subject with the same characters. This is the stuff of comic books,
of children's literature, though you'd get no argument from me that
the Silver Surfer has more craft and art and blood, sweat, and tears
than the Xanth novels, or that "Where The Wild Things Are" and the
Dr. Seuss books show more imagination and extrapolation than Star
Trek.

A creative person is allowed to break all rules and all conventions
provided that the end product is a work of art. And as many of the
masters have proved, Rodin, Picasso, Joyce, Proust, etc., to break
the rules you must learn them, and learn them well. But it is hard
to believe that Robert Heinlein *ever* kept his overbearing
personality out of the mouths of every character. "Time Enough For
Love" was a nightmare - Robert A.  Heinlein living forever, and
worse, *talking* forever. It's a shame, but science fiction, unlike
almost any other creative field, has almost no true masters that are
recognized as such, no people who are held up by the aficionados as
examples to young acolytes. Instead, the old hacks are deified and
glorified. Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke. What would science fiction
be like if instead, the examples for new writers were Aldiss,
Ballard, and Silverberg?

All that you will see when you wander through the science fiction
section of your local bookstore is new authors who are rarely more
than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or Gordon
Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme.  Where is a new Thomas Disch?
Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin? For too
long science fiction has built on such a narrow pedestal, and now
this trash-heap is threatening to fall over on us.  Barry B.
Longyear, Brian Daley, Christopher Stasheff, Jerry Pournelle, Piers
Anthony, Robert Asprin, Spider Robinson, Joe Haldeman, Marion Zimmer
Bradley, Anne McCaffrey, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The fault does not
lie with the author; it lies with the readership that continues to
demand the same old crap in different colored toilets, or at the
very least, continues to buy it. A readership that wants a sequel to
every novel, a readership that wants a novel out of every short
story, a readership that has grown fat and lazy on a diet of trash,
like metropolitan raccoons.  Theodore Sturgeon, who knew a thing or
two about being a hack, wrote a corollary to Murphy's Law that said
"90 Percent Of Everything Is Crap".  So let's not wallow in the 90
percent, let's get our heads out of the toilet and go look for the
10 percent that's worth reading.

It's science fiction's doom as a viable 20th Century art form if its
readership continues to wallow in mediocrity, merely competent
writing, and glorification of hacks. Notice that "mainstream"
authors who have written science fiction for the general reading
public have by and large maintained a higher standard of craft than
is present in current new offerings within science fictions.
"Duluth" by Gore Vidal. The "Canopus In Argus" series by Doris
Lessing. A few others here and there, not many, because it's the
kiss of death for a mainstream author to become associated with
writing science fiction. Possibly it's because in the eyes of the
reading public, that descending to write science fiction is exactly
that - descending. Being lowered. Jumping in the muck with all the
Trekkies.  Bug Eyed Monsters. All of the hackneyed, over used,
cliched constructs that science fiction has been relying on for much
too long, rather than finding something new. In some ways, the
general reading public has a clearer view of what science fiction is
and what it isn't than those who have been reading it all their
lives. The forest for the trees.

That's all for now, kids. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF
SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III: Self-Censorship And The Science
Fiction Establishment".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 85 10:05 EDT
From: William M. York <York@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics
To: ames!barry@TOPAZ.ARPA

>From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
>  No, not really true. An example: STAR WARS was at first seen by
>Fox as middle-weight Summer fare which would at best turn a small
>profit. It originally had a small promotional budget, and opened at
>minor locations. It was only because Lucas had Charlie Lippincott
>running around to all the SF cons for a year before it opened that
>the movie took off as it did, in my opinion. SF fans were waiting
>for that film with their mouths watering because of the
>presentations at the cons, and this was why the lines ran around
>the block when the film quietly opened. It was only after the
>studios saw this initial enthusiastic reception that the film was
>given a big "premiere" at the Chinese, and a big promo budget.

You may consider this picking nits, but Star Wars didn't exactly
open "quietly".  If I remember correctly, the preceeding week's
issue of Time magazine featured an article about Star Wars as the
cover story, and in the article they claimed that Star Wars would be
the best movie of the year (a strong prediction for May).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 85 1108-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #176
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 24 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Heinlein & Simak & Zelazny &
                   Robot Stories & SF Titles & 
                   Story Request (2 msgs),
           Films - Terminator & 2001/2010,
           Miscellaneous - The Problems with SF & Criticizing &
                   Publisher/Editor Recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 85 17:53 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: UNIVAC, MULTIVAC, and friends

>        Incorrect responses centered around analogies to Univac:
>(UNIVersal Automatic Computer). This is a very easy error, and I
>suspect that The Good Doctor had Univac in mind when he wrote the
>story.

He definitely had it in mind.  In fact, MULTIVAC is a play on
UNIVAC, by taking UNIVAC to be UNI(=one) VACuum tube, ie a computer
with one vacuum tube.  (I think the first time Asimov heard the
term, that was his first guess as to what it meant.) Hence MULTIVAC
was just a computer with many (MULTI) vacuum tubes.  I don't
remember where I read this, but it was probably in an introduction
to one of the MULTIVAC stories, of which there are several.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 85 21:41:57 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Stranger in a Strange Land

     The thing I fond oddest about various people's flames over
Heinlein's sexism is the fact that in almost all of his stories in
which there is any philosophizing about relationships, The Main
Character always claims that women are really running things, and
men are just deluded.

     In any case, in Expanded Horizons, Heinlein claims that
Stranger was written many years before it was published, in 4 pieces
that are not the obvious breakpoints of the book, and that he had
held it back until the buying public could deal with the concepts
put forth in the book. From what I hear, (having been too young at
the time to experience it) it was a great underground success, and
there is even a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song in which water
brothership is mentioned... the context of the rest of the song
shows how 'revolutionary' the ideas were.

     As for the girls tolerating Jubal, while he was an obnoxious
old coot, he was a rather nice, likeable obnoxious old coot, who
understood a lot people and interpersonal relationships, and mostly
tried to be a good friend to the people he liked. I could love such
a man... although I would probably have the good sense not to marry
him.

ttfn
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 05:11:23-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Simak bibliography

> From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
> Does anyone out there have a Simak bibliography?  (Jayembee?).

Well, here's a brief bibliography --- books published in the US:

THE CREATOR                     1946    [booklet]
COSMIC ENGINEERS                1950
EMPIRE                          1951
TIME AND AGAIN                  1951
    a.k.a. FIRST HE DIED
CITY                            1952    [collection]
    The Ace paperback editions since 1978 include
    an additional story first published in 1973.
RING AROUND THE SUN             1953
STRANGERS IN THE UNIVERSE       1956    [collection]
    The Berkley paperback edition is abridged.
THE WORLDS OF CLIFFORD SIMAK    1960    [collection]
     a.k.a. OTHER WORLDS OF CLIFFORD SIMAK (abidriged)
TIME IS THE SIMPLEST THING      1961
THE TROUBLE WITH TYCHO          1961
ALL THE TRAPS OF EARTH          1962    [collection]
    The MacFadden paperback edition is abridged.
THEY WALKED LIKE MEN            1962
WAY STATION                     1963
WORLDS WITHOUT END              1964    [collection]
ALL FLESH IS GRASS              1965
BEST SF STORIES OF CLIFFORD SIMAK   1967
THE WEREWOLF PRINCIPLE          1967
WHY CALL THEM BACK FROM HEAVEN? 1967
THE GOBLIN RESERVATION          1968
SO BRIGHT THE VISION            1968    [collection]
OUT OF THEIR MINDS              1970
A CHOICE OF GODS                1971
DESTINY DOLL                    1971
CEMETARY WORLD                  1973
OUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN         1974
THE BEST OF CLIFFORD D. SIMAK   1975    [collection]
ENCHANTED PILGRIMAGE            1975
SHAKESPEARE'S PLANET            1976
A HERITAGE OF STARS             1977
SKIRMISH                        1977    [collection]
MASTODONIA                      1978
THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE TALISMAN  1978
THE VISITORS                    1980
PROJECT POPE                    1981
SPECIAL DELIVERENCE             1982
WHERE THE EVIL DWELLS           1982

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 1985 at 1337-EDT
Subject: Amber Waves etc
From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA  (James B. Houser)

        Finished reading the Trumps of Doom (why the sudden rash of
_people_underlining_book_titles_?)  last night.  A classic case of
"if you liked the other books in the series ...".  One complaint is
that despite all the action not much really happens in this novel.
It is more of a stream of consciousness type affair.  One
interesting note is that the book is set only a few years after the
battle in chaos.  Generally enjoyable though.

        One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly
reputable SF writers including their computers in a novel.  There is
some of this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a better
example.  I have an image of these guys being given a Trash-80 for
their birthday and after a month or so the illness strikes.  Getting
a little tired of every protaganist being a computer whiz especially
when the writer has only a superficial background to go on.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 May 85 12:55:07-CDT
From: Pete Galvin <CC.GALVIN@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Request for stories
To: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA

Maybe this doesn't count, but I enjoyed _The Cyborg and the
Sorcerer_ by Lawrence Watt-evans very much.  It's about a cyborg,
not a robot, but it's an enjoyable read anyway so I thought I should
mention it.  Even better is Watt-evans' series which starts with the
novel _Lure of the Basilisk_.  The series takes place on an alien
planet with alien gods (it's fantasy, not sf).  Great stuff.

                                --Pete

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz.arpa (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: Pet Peeve with SF Titles
Date: 20 May 85 05:45:50 GMT

Mark Leeper wrote:
> This is one of my pet peeves with some science fiction writers.
>
> This title promises one sort of story and the film delivers
> something fairly different with the implicit statement "Oh, sorry
> if you misunderstood our title."
>
> In fact, we see the same game played by respected science fiction
> authors.  A prime example just came to my attention.  Orsen Scott
> Card titled a recent novel ENDER'S GAME.  That title conjures up
> interesting ideas.  In fact many games can be turned over in the
> end-game.  Players in various games can "shoot-the-moon" as they
> see some sort of game coming to an end.  Particularly since they
> have nothing to lose.  Somebody with a good endgame plan can make
> any sort of game interesting.  This is just the principle that
> might make Card's alien invasion story interesting.  It may even
> be there.  But I just read a review of the story that said the
> story took its name from the main character named Ender.  "Oh,
> sorry if you misunderstood the title."

First, "Ender's Game" is a short story (well, maybe novellette). It
first appeared in Analog, and is anthologized in UNACCOMPANIED
SONATA.

Second, "Ender's Game" does get it's title from the name of the main
character, true.  But, the "Game" in the title is also very
important.  And the "endgame" idea is also part of the story.  I
understand your pet peeve, but it just doesn't wash with this
particular story.

Third, this story happens to be excellent (as is the entire
collection).  If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it.  It's
the kind of story who's plot sticks with you long after you've
forgotten the title.

Ariel Shattan
..!tektronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 11:08:47-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: "time flowing backwards"

I read a "short" story a while back and I have no idea where I put
the magazine, or even if I still have it.

It was about a person (alien, I believe) on the run that could
"remember" the future and plan his path on what he "remembered". He
had no view of the past, immediate or otherwise.  (Sorry, that's all
I remember)

Does anyone have any idea of what I'm trying to remember?

Thanks in advance.

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 85 21:32:24 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Story title request

     Hello, ye of eidetic memories. I'm looking for a story,
probably a short story, of which I only remember the last scene (I
think it is the last scene...). What I remember is:

     Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally
confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all
these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a
distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet
strings which this being controls.  Then, our hero notices
something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs upward
into darkness.

     This irony, while perhaps obvious, has stayed with me a long
time.  Since I have been reading almost exclusively sf for quite a
long time (no flames about my lack of culture, please), I am fairly
sure it is an sf story, although it is possible that I am wrong. Any
takers?

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: daemon!bobp@topaz.arpa (Robert N Perry)
Subject: TERMINATOR
Date: 21 May 85 16:37:42 GMT

        Having seen the movie about 4 times I'd like to know if
anyone can tell me if there exists a book with the same story line.
Title and author, please. Thanks.

Robert N. Perry (Bob)
Tektronix, Inc.
tektronix!bobp
bobp@tektronix
bobp.tektronix@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet...
Date: 22 May 85 01:20:59 PDT (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>  1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the
>  movie.

If I remember the criticisim correctly, what was distressing was the
idea that Jupiter's having banished the night ends all wars.  Rather
a stretch, I agree; but then, so was most of the Russian/American
antagonism in the movie: not at all like the book.  The book, in
fact, had none of that, so it had no need to try to end it.

I found nothing particularly wrong with Jupiter's igniting, given
the machines that were available to do it.  Jupiter was almost a
star anyway.

>  2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the
>ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you
>think that a totally irrelevant, unintelligible ending is a good
>thing just so they leave the theater thinking.

How do you know 2001's ending was irrelevant, if you're not even
sure what was being said?

The only thing I didn't much care for in the ending of 2010 was that
the performance of "Also Sprach Zarathusta" was a bit fast for its
full power to be felt.  I don't understand why they didn't use the
same performance that 2001 did.  But could anybody deny the beauty
of that final scene on Europa, or (remembering 2001) miss how the
whole story was starting again, for a new race on a new world?

>  3) I didn't measure the obelisk thingys. You really did?

Don't really see how anybody could, sitting in a theatre seat.  To
my eye, which was the most accurate instrument available (which
isn't necessarily saying very much), the slabs looked close enough
to 1:4:9.  I certainly couldn't have told that they weren't.

  Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 06:57:03-PDT
From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: Davis Tucker's comments on fandom

I was baffled by Davis Tucker's comments on the relationship between
sf authors and fans.  Tucker's thesis seemed to be that fans forgive
bad writing if they happen to like the author personally.  What fans
are these? It's not enough to put one quote from one uncritical
reader at the front of your piece and then condemn all fandom on
that basis.  No one is sacred in science fiction, not Asimov, or
Clarke, or even Heinlein.  In this mailing list we've seen criticism
of all of them.

Tucker also writes:

"But given the usual nature of science fiction, if he [Dostoevski]
happened to be a writer in that field today, he probably wouldn't
get published, he certainly wouldn't win any awards, and he would
definitely not gain any great appreciation from the science fiction
readers and establishment. This is not conjecture; this is fact. "

Well, no, that is conjecture because Dostoevski never did write any
SF.  A fact concerns something that really exists or really
occurred, and a conjecture is speculation about things that might
have occurred.  Perhaps Dostoevski wouldn't have done well in SF,
but there have certainly been obnoxious people who have succeeded
handsomely.

Tucker concludes by comparing Asimov to Wolfe:

"But nothing he [Asimov] has written even comes close to Gene Wolfe.
This isn't mere opinion - I don't truck with the idea of absolute
relativism in art."

An opinion is exactly what that is.  There are better and worse
opinions, and frankly, that is one of the worse ones.  Asimov and
Wolfe have completely different goals in their writing.  Asimov's
characters are minimal figures present in order to get the idea
across.  Wolfe is a mood writer, trying to create strange and
wonderful scenes for the reader.  Comparing them is like comparing
textbooks and poetry.  You may prefer to read one or the other, but
they have to be judged on their own basis.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 14:00:23-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: re: criticizing

I normally keep quiet, but this one won't stay still.

For those that criticize and tack on "I can do better than that" or
"I can write better than that", I haven't yet seen someone with a
BIG mouth actually sit down and do something with all those
*wonderful* ideas they think they have.

How about it? When are we going to hear something from you other
than criticism? When are you going to do something?  Why not change
the story and let us hear *your* ideas?

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 85 17:42 CDT
From: Patrick_Duff <pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Wanted: Publisher and Editor reviews

   I will soon be contacting a publisher with a story outline and a
few chapters of an SF book I am writing; I am also considering
submitting a short story to one of the SF magazines.  Does anyone
have any advice concerning which publisher an unknown author should
contact?  How much difference could it make if I waited to submit my
book material until after I've had a short story or two published
somewhere?  I'm interested in both positive and negative reviews of
publishers and magazines (or magazine editors).  Please give the
source of your information if possible (first- hand experience, from
a magazine or fanzine article, heard at a convention, etc.).

   regards, Patrick

Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621***          pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay
5049 Walker Dr. #91103                  214/480-1659 (work)
The Colony, TX 75056-1120               214/370-5363 (home)
(a suburb of Dallas, TX)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 85 1141-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #177
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 25 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:

          Books - Heinlein & Spider Robinson & Stapledon &
                  Wells (2 msgs) & Wilhelm (2 msgs) & Zelazny,
          Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & Jitlov &
                  Japanese Animation,
          Radio - Jack Flanders,
          Miscellaneous - Space Operas & ZBS Media

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 85 11:58:51 EDT
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: Starship Troopers

Gee, I had a completely different view of Starship Troopers.
Admittedly, I was young at the time, and I've never heard what
Heinlein thought of it, but I thought it was almost anti-military.
The first attack scene comes to mind where the entire idea was to
terrorize a relatively peaceful people.  I can't remember if they
were actually helping the bugs or were just aligned with them or
just sympathetic with them, but the idea of sending down an
overwhelmingly superior force to kill, destroy, and frighten
indiscriminately seems like a typically military reaction and not a
very pleasant nor effective one.

I also saw the "bugs" as just your typical enemy.  Did the
government just work the soldiers (and the civilians, too, of
course) into the typical military frenzy, like the view of Germans
as baby eaters?  Were they really bugs, or just humanoids with some
buglike features?  Were they really all that aggressive?  What I'm
saying was that they were painted so ugly by the protagonist's views
that you had to say "this *must* be an exaggeration."

Maybe it was just because this was when I thought Heinlein was a
god, before I read so many old-man-getting-lots-of-sex-teaches-
youngster-how- to-view-life stories.
                                                provan@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 22 May 85 00:18:16-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: New books by Spider Robinson

/Melancholy Elephants/, "June" 1985, TOR Books, $2.95.
        Contains 13 short stories by Spider Robinson.  Four of these
        stores appeared in his collection /Antinomy/.  Eleven
        appeared in the Canadian collection of the same title.

/Callahan's Secret/, "collection, in progress".
        [Listed in the front of /Melancholy Elephants/.]

Nano-Review:  Recommended.

Micro-Review:  The stories vary from pretty good to very good.

Macro-Review: First two warnings: 1) This collection contains
several stories with (as they say) "strong sexual content".  If you
don't like such stories, you should probably skip this book; 2)
Don't read the inside front cover or back cover blurbs.  They both
include spoilers.

I can't really write a review of this book except by reviewing each
individual story and I can't really do that very well w/o spoiling
them.  Since you're likely to read all the stories anyway if you buy
the book, I don't see much point in telling you which stories /I/
didn't like.  So I'll just quote the beginning of three stories to
give you a flavor of what's going on.

        When the upper half of an extremely fat man materialized
        before him over the pool table in the living room, Spud
        nearly swallowed his Adam's apple.  But then he saw that the
        man was a stranger and relaxed.

        The blind man was watching a videotape when the phone chimed.

        I became aware of him five parsecs away.  He rode a
        nickel-iron asteroid of a hundred metric tonnes as if it
        were an unruly steed, and he broke off chunks of it and
        hurled them at the stars, and he howled.

------------------------------

From: herbison@ultra.DEC (B.J.)
Subject: Re: Last and First Men
Date: 21 May 85 21:09:05 GMT

> Many years back I read a long tome called
>
>         Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon.
>
> It was published by Penguin ....
> The old Penguin copy had gone walkies, and it is now out of print.
>
> Does anyone know of the book, and if so of any existing copies.

This novel is available along with the related *Star Maker* in a
book published by Dover Publications (31 East 2nd Street; Mineola,
N.Y.  11501-3582), ISBN 0-486-21962.  Dover is mostly a reprint
house -- they release good out-of-print books in paperback (but
these are books that will last with solid covers, good paper, and
sewn bindings).  They cover a wide variety of books; some SF,
fantasy, old mysteries, textbooks, art books, games, etc.  I have
over 50 Dover books in my collection, and I will keep buying more.
                                                B.J.
    Herbison@DEC-Hudson.ARPA       Herbison%Ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
    {decvax,ucbvax,...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-ultra!herbison

------------------------------

From: warwick@blott.DEC (Trevor Warwick, REO2/F-H2, DTN 830-4432)
Subject: H.G.Wells
Date: 21 May 85 07:43:01 GMT

        Ex-inhabitant of Bromley, Kent writes ...

        Indeed, H.G. was born in Bromley, the centre of the known
Universe. The place he was born is marked by one of those blue
plaques that the London tourist board are so fond of sticking on
anything that is over 10 years old.

        Unfortunately, the house (in Bromley's Market Square) was
demolished a *long* time ago, and the plaque is now affixed to the
front of the Allders dpartment store !

trevor warwick
Engineering Division, Digital Equipment Corporation,
Reading, England.
UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
      !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-tron!warwick
ARPA: warwick%tron.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: The Man Who Could Work Miracles
Date: 23 May 85 02:36:00 GMT

Actually I didn't say any of the things quoted in this article, they
were all in responses to my original article on SF: THE GREAT YEARS.
I did not draw the connection to THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES, I
guess that was Margolin, though I not longer have the original.
Nonethless, I think pete is missing his sense of humor.  To call
Wells a relative unknown was a facetious touch, or so I interpretted
it.  I was once making a list of obscure science fiction films worth
watching for and included STAR WARS.  I would hazard a guess that
worldwide Wells is the best known science fiction author.
Deservedly so.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 22 May 1985 06:08:45-PDT
From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: comments on "Welcome Chaos"

Here's another recommendation for Kate Wilhelm's "Welcome Chaos".
It's a nice treatment of immortality injected into a present-day
society.  It also has one of the best-drawn villains I've seen.
He's not psychotic, he's not irrationally cruel, but he is
definitely evil.  This is the sort of book that a good mainstream
author ought to be able to do on an SF theme.

** spoiler warning **

I agree that the fact that the immortality treatment kills half its
patients would probably deter most people.  Remember, though, that
the treatment stopped you at your present age.  The longer you
waited to take it, the older you would be stuck at.  (However, to
quote Walter Jon Williams in "Knight Moves": "The price of being
eternally twenty is eternal pimples.") Also, the longer you waited,
the more likely it would be that accident or disease would get you.
If you are gambling for eternity, even odds don't sound too bad.

I also agree that it's unlikely that an immortality treatment would
be a simple antibiotic.  However, it's also unlikely that even that
much would have been discovered in pre-war Germany.  That's just
something you have to suspend your disbelief about.  The fact that
the treatment sterilized women would account for why it hadn't come
up in the course of evolution.

One thing that struck me is how Wilhelm was very definite about
setting the novel in the present day.  There wasn't a trace of any
advanced gadgets, even ones that we might expect to see in five
years.  There is a home computer, for instance, but it's just a word
processor connected to a modem.  I think she did this to drive home
the relevance of the war fever that she describes in the book.  She
doesn't want readers to ignore it by thinking that it is the result
of an even more anti-Russian Administration.  She is worried about
the present government.  I think we've seen some evidence for that
worry even in SF-Lovers.  Remember how many people complained about
the ending of "2010"? (** Spoiler warning **).  They didn't think
that it was realistic that the ignition of Jupiter would make people
forget their squabbles. I mean, really!  If a second sun in the sky
wouldn't distract people, what would?  Even sf-lovers readers seem
to think that conflict with Russia is inevitable.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1985 10:25:07-EDT
From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
To: Rob MacLachlan
Subject: Welcome, Chaos

                   ******Continued Spoiler******

>I also find the nature of the cure rather unlikely.  It is a
>substance fortuitously discovered in a bacteria culture which
>magically revamps your immune system.  The ways that your body can
>fail are many and complex.  I doubt that any one substance, let
>alone a natural one, will be the answer to "immortality".  If
>substantial life prolongation is obtained, it will probably be
>through a large collection of carefully designed treatments.

The source of the substance was the HeLa strain of human cancer
Tcells.

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1985  17:03 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Trumps of Doom

        Well, I got Trumps last week (probably the last copy in
Harvard Square, as it happens) and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  I
suppose one might not call it a cliff-hanger, but in that case I
certainly don't know what else to call it.  I'm certainly looking
forward to the next one.  Does anyone know when it will be out?

        Anyway, I heard that there is a lawsuit revolving around the
cover art of ToD.  Supposedly, there is a claim that the picture is
a rip-off of a Whelan print, and that they may have to stop printing
until a new cover is designed.  Does anyone know if there's anything
to that?

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 85 21:45:37 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Rocky Horror

    There is now available an album of Rocky Horror, complete with
audience responses, recorded at the 8th street Playhouse in
Manhattan.  I do not know what it is like, nor how widespread it is,
or whether it is stereo or mono. I do know it was remixed. I do not
yet have the money to buy it.

     I have also seen a printout of a copy of the script with the
responses in it. I think it is online somewhere in this great
computer network, but have no idea where... any comments, netlander?

/amqueue

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show
Date: 21 May 85 18:06:00 GMT

> From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits
> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits of
> it but not it all and as its now been released over here on video,
> I'd like to try and jog my memory.

I, for one, will not.  RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it was
destroyed by the audience participation.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1985 01:51-PDT
Subject: SF shorts: The Wizzard of Speed and Time
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

Jitlov was at the last worldcon, explaining how tWoSaT is being made
into a full length feature.  It may never see the light of day,
since apparently he wants to have all his friends in the film and is
running to union type problems, but he DID show a new, longer,
version of the crosee country run.  It was great.  I hope the full
length version does make it out...

BillW

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Wed, 22 May 85 01:41:09 PDT
Subject: Animation Fans

Any interested persons interested in Japanese Animation please
contact me.  There was a letter on the net once but I have been
unable to find a correct path to the sender.  I am now looking to
collect names of sources (and requests) to add to my list of sources
locally.

Has anyone seen the OFFICAL animated "The Lensman Movie"?

Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
                crash!victoro@nosc   or   crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 85 15:13 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: RE: Jack Flanders ????

"The Fourth Tower of Inverness" is a 13-week radio serial produced
by ZBS Media (now The ZBS Foundation).  Written and produced by one
"Meatball Fulton", it aired originally back around 1970 on a number
of NPR/PBS stations.  A semi-sequel (also involving Jack Flanders,
with a cameo appearance by Lady Jowles, and using many of the same
actors and actresses) was released a couple of years later; entitled
"Moon over Morocco", it was a 10-week, 10-minutes-per-day series
utilizing background sounds that Meatball Fulton recorded live
during a trip to Morocco.

ZBS has recently produced another series, of horror and mystery
stories by authors like Steven King.  This series takes ZBS's quest
for realistic and interesting sound effects to a new height,
according to what I've read of it... I believe that they may be
using binaural recording techniques.

It was (and probably still is) possible to purchase copies of the
Flanders serials on cassette tape for a very reasonable price.  Try
writing to:

         The ZBS Foundation
         Box 1201
         R.D. #1
         Fort Edward, New York   12828

Ask for their catalog.  You might want to send them a buck or two to
cover their postage costs.  Be prepared to wait a while... the
mystery series (and the fact that it is available for purchase) was
mentioned in _Heavy Metal_ a few months ago, and I suspect that they
have been swamped with queries (I send them a request for a current
catalog a couple of months ago and haven't received a reply yet).

------------------------------

Subject: space "operas"
Date: 22 May 85 01:06:20 PDT (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" is
supposed to be?  The only space opera I've ever heard of is
"Aniara", by Blomdahl, and that because it was on the same record
with the "2001" soundtrack.  I trust it is not Wagner's Valhalla
elevated to literally heavenly heights, or Verdi or Donezetti
re-staged with Saturn's rings as a backdrop.

Acknowledging, then, that it probably has nothing to do with real
opera, what is it?

  Thanks,
  Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 1985 10:44:46 EDT
From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: ZBS MEDIA

     Since the name of ZBS Studios has returned to the list, I think
it might be worth mentioning their latest project: a series of
audiophile-quality real-time cassette recordings of various stories,
using a binaural system that provides near-perfect 3-d sound when
played back through headphones (no, it won't work on speakers, alas,
due to some psychological phenomena that I don't fully comprehend).
     Among the stories already completed are Stephen King's "The
Mist" and a short by Craig Strete; many more are in the prep stages
right now.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 85 1258-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #178
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 26 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:

    Art - Cover Art (2 msgs),
    Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Lee & A Request Answered (2 msgs) &
            Naked to the Stars & SF Titles
    Films - James Bond & Star Trek III (3 msgs) & 2001/2010

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rtech!bobm@topaz.arpa (Bob Mcqueer)
Subject: Re: Cover Artwork in general (really back-cover blurbs)
Date: 21 May 85 20:47:03 GMT

>    And finally, a departing flame: Cover art can be said to be
> worthwhile even if it doesn't concern the book, but can the same
> be said for back- cover blurbs that badly distort the
> plot/theme/tone of a novel?

OR give away the ending, if they even come close to saying anything
realistic about the novel.  I can agree with this particular gripe
completely.  Of the SF books I've read recently, I'd estimate about
50-70% of the cover art to fit a reasonable visualization of the
book (not always in agreement with MINE, but reasonable).  However,
the blurbs always seem to be missing the major point, turning every
novel into a scenario for a bad movie, revealing what's going to
happen, or some mixture of all of the above together with various
and sundry other critical sins.  Even literate, intelligent work has
to be adorned by the publisher with the sort of hype that together
with TV and movie promotional drivel provides employement for the
modern day equivalent of a carnival barker.  If a worthwile comment
somehow DOES find its way to the back cover, it is usually seriously
out of context.  What's REALLY annoying is that I seem to be unable
NOT to read the back of a book while I'm considering buying it.  I
would like to be able to use the back cover notes to determine if a
paperback might appeal to me before plunking down my $3.95 + tax,
rather than having to rely solely on familiarity with the author or
on criticism gathered elsewhere.

Next flame: those silly, oversized, overpriced "TRADE" paper
editions!

Back to scanning this group for pointers to interesting novels,
since I can't tell by the cover [art | blurbs].

Bob McQueer
ihnp4!amdahl!rtech!bobm

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: SF cover art (do you know Chris Foss ??)
Date: 24 May 85 02:27:08 GMT

For those of you who enjoy cover art as much as the contents of any
SF book, check out Chris Foss. He is the one who appears on some of
the British prints (Asimov: Currents_of_Space, Gods_by_themselves,
Blish: Cities_in_flight to name a few..) and draws spaceships that
look like space trashcans. (to an untrained eye that is :-)) His
acrylic technique is WAY SUPERIOR to many commercial artists, and
his realism with objects that do not exist (such as spaceships that
look like trashcans :-)) is almost eerie. (This is partly due to his
excellent command of 3-D design, and attention to detail..  His work
is never a quick air-brush washout with trivial touch-ups..)  He was
actually commissioned for ALIEN, and has produced VERY GOOD designs
for both the earth and the alien spaceships.  (But producers felt
that Geiger could scare more people s**tless with his designs :-))
He also worked on a set of sketches for DUNE, at least six years
before it was made into a movie. A book of his artwork was published
in late seventies, which contains most of his SF cover art as well
as his earlier cover art for WW2 novels. (U know, the spitfires,
U-boats, dogfights etc.) This book is a must for any SF cover-art
lover. You will also find some of his artwork in a book called
SPACESHIPS (I think), which is easier to get a hold of..

Oz      (wizard of something or another, no doubt..)
        Usenet: {decvax|ihnp4|linus|allegra}!utzoo!yetti!oz
        Bitnet: oz@yuyetti | oz@yuleo

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (I liked it)
Date: 21 May 85 17:54:42 GMT

> Dennis L. McKiernan
> PS: Back in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that
> Milton drew upon but a single line in the Bible to weave his
> original tale.  You see, in the elder days, Lucifer
> (light-bringer) was the name given to the morning star. And some
> biblical person (a king?)  glanced up at the morning stars and
> espying Lucifer says something like, "O mighty Lucifer, how far
> thou hast fallen from heaven."  The king(?) was simply refering to
> the nearness of the dawn, but Milton took this line and based the
> entire mythos of the heavenly revolt upon it...

Thanks.  Your information is more complete than mine.  It is true
that the above mentioned quote is the way that Lucifer became
associated with Satan, but I didn't know that Milton was the
instrument of this.  I had assumed the mistake to have been made
before his time.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: kallis@pen.DEC
Date: 21 May 85 20:29:27 GMT
Subject: The True Name of God

>From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>Actually, if you want to avoid offending orthodox jews, you won't
>refer to "Y*w*h" either. Try '' (yod yod), pronounced "Adonoi".

During the Medieval period, when sorcery was much in vogue, there
were many attempts to invoke *a* name of God without necessarily
invoking *the* Name.  One approach was assuming "Ya[h]weh," as the
Name, the ceremonial magician would take the (more or less)
consonantal aspects, YHWH and refer to them as the "Tetragrammaton,"
i.e., the four-character representation (this was sometimes written
enclosed in parentheses).  Other names were used in a great deal of
(rather dubious) ceremonial work (e.g., Shaddai, El, and Agla).

Tradition states that the True Name of God was never spoken nor
written down, but yet was known to the initiates of the Greater
Mysteries of the Lord.  How this was done was cleverly deduced by
Robert Graves in his _The White Goddess_, but whether this was a
real derivation or just a clever construct on Graves' part is
unclear (perhaps even to Graves).

-Steve Kallis, Jr.

p.s.: There are some echoes of this idea of the Ancient Egyptian
Words of Power, probably handed down through the Gnostics.

SK

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Re: Lee's Master series
Date: 21 May 85 05:51:06 GMT

> I have a question.  I have copies of Tanith Lee's "Night's
> Master", "Death's Master", and "Delusion's Master".  Someone once
> mentioned that this series contained 4 books.  Is this true?  If
> so, what is the fourth?

        The fourth is as yet unwritten (sigh). Also, for those of
you who care, Highland Press has put out the first two of the series
(Night, and Death) in a couple of VERY pretty limited editions.

Joe Kalash
kalash@berkeley
ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 85 03:02:58 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: "Name that story" answered

From David Eppstein:
> It starts out with a (student,woman) psychologist visiting another
> woman who's been put away as schizophrenic.  Then there's this
> sort of segue, and it ends up in the patient's supposedly imagi-
> nary universe where there are only women and one of the women is
> giving virgin birth to her daughter and the psychologist person
> had been the crazy one but she's over it now.

TAA DAA -- the story is (without a doubt) "Manikins" by John Varley.
You can find it in _The_Barbie_Murders_ (now retitled _Picnic_On_
_Nearside_ for some reason).  It originally appeared in Amazing,
January 1976.  Your synopsis is basically correct; the woman was a
psychology student interviewing a schizophrenic woman.

Varley seems to have the gift of being able to write as well from a
woman's point of view as from a man's (whereas Heinlein, for
example, does not.)  This story almost had me believing that men
really are nasty alien organisms . . .

                                --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 85 11:35:41 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Name That Story

Re David Eppstein's query (giving birth in the wimmin's universe) --
"Consider Her Ways", by John Wyndham -- that's my (unreferenced)
vote.

Daniel Dern

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 85 09:19:49 EDT (Wed)
From: Charles Martin <martin%YALE-RING@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Naked to the Stars

{\it Naked to the Stars\/} is by Gordon R. Dickson, author of the
Dorsai series (or Childe Cycle, if you prefer).  Not by Phillip K.
Dick.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Pet Peeve with SF Titles
Date: 23 May 85 02:45:39 GMT

GUILTY!  GUILTY!!!

As I said in my original posting, I was basing my comment on
something I read in a review.  I was disappointed that the title
seemed to refer to endgames, not the game of someone named Ender.
Apparently it was both and I half stuck my foot in my mouth.  I
still don't like the fact a character had his name chosen as a pun.
I could instead have picked NINE PRINCES IN AMBER, a picturesque
title, but it is not about anyone stuck in the material Amber.  That
one I did read.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 85 11:21:19 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: In Defense of MOONRAKER

Now, I am not a James Bond fan, but I've seen all the films but two,
and to say that MOONRAKER is "perhaps the series' worst", as does
Hank Shiffman, starts a little indignation flowing in me.

Yes, I enjoyed MOONRAKER, as the pulp-type adventure story it is.
It certainly wasn't a spy thriller, but Bond films stopped being spy
thrillers with FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE (attempting to return to the
genre in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY).  Instead, MOONRAKER was a good "Bond
film", however you want to define that.  Some of the scenes I
enjoyed:

- the hijacking of the shuttle
- the opening parachuting sequence
- the dobermans out to terminate a Drax Industries employee
- the discovery and activation of the space station

along with the cute references to SF films (the CE3K doorchime,
e.g.).

Since no one asked, I thought I'd rate the films and let people know
what I do consider to be the series' worst.  Here they are, from
best to worst:

ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE - no rating.  This is one I haven't
seen.  Most people I've spoken with say it was awful, although I
have heard praise for a chase sequence on skis.

NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN - no rating.  I know this was a remake of
THUNDERBALL, and that the critics kinda shrugged their shoulders at
it.

GOLDFINGER - the best.  Best villain, best henchman, best music,
best gadgets, and Honor Blackman (remember her from the original
AVENGERS?)

FROM RUSSIA, WITH LOVE - perhaps the best train movie

YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE - when they thought Sean Connery was leaving the
series, they gave writer Roald Dahl carte blanche as to plot.  A
flawed but wild film.

MOONRAKER - see comments above.

DOCTOR NO - of historical interest, mostly.
OCTOPUSSY - nice circus sequences

THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN - Christopher Lee and his funhouse

LIVE AND LET DIE - Geoffrey Holder as Baron Samedi, otherwise
embarassing

THUNDERBALL - boring, but with the hydrofoil

FOR YOUR EYES ONLY - boring, no hydrofoil

THE SPY WHO LOVED ME - almost dreadful (Marvin Hamlisch's music
especially; a disco "James Bond Theme"?), with bits stolen from
previous Bond films

CASINO ROYALE - I would dearly like to see this done as a regular
Bond film, rather than as a parody.  I really liked Orson Welles as
Le Chiffre.  Otherwise heavyhanded.

DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER - perfectly dreadful.

Regarding future Bond films, I'd be surprised if Broccoli & co.
didn't bid on the rights to the John Gardner Bond novels.  Plus,
there's COLONEL SUN, by Kingsley Amis/Robert Markham, in case they'd
prefer to have their tie-in novels written ahead of time.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 85 08:35 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook

>From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

> I just bought the LaserDisc version of this.  Has anybody noticed
> any of these really glaring flaws:
>    . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the
>   Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!)

I guess you hear what you want to hear.  It sounded to me like he
was using some Klingonaase unit of measure.  The word sounded more
like KELLACONS than KILOGRAMS.

>     . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried
>       Spock in space without knowing any better?

Now THAT makes sense.  That never would have occurred to me.

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 1985  16:51 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook

        If you've read the book, Saavik was brought up on a Romulan
planet.  She did not learn her Vulcan heritage until later.  It is
entirely possible that she never knew that there was any reason to
bring the body back to Vulcan.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 85 20:59 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SDIII: TSfS
Cc: Mark Crispin <MCR@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

> .  How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently
buried Spock in space without knowing any better?

Any of the following reasons will do: 1.  Saavik didn't know either,
since she was raised Romulan, and only came to Vulcan later.  2.
Saavik didn't know Spock "dumped" into McCoy, so she assumed he was
gone, and didn't see any point in bringing the matter up, since it
would just make Kirk et.  al.  feel worse.  3.  As I recall the
novelisation, there was something about Spock figuring that as a
half-human, he wouldn't be allowed to contribute his "soul" (I've
forgotten the vulcan word used) to the "soul bank" back on Vulcan.
Perhaps he told Saavick this and/or she thought so too.

> .  When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the
> Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!)

No doubt I should explain this one two.  This is due to the
revolutionary theory of "Berglundic relativity," which has as a
consequence that D=mb^2, so that just as now physicists talk about
masses (of elementary particles) in terms of Bev's and Gev's (units
of energy), in the twenty-third century, they refer to distances in
terms of mass.  (:-), in case you hadn't guessed.)

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard)
Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet...
Date: 21 May 85 20:19:09 GMT

> 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the
>movie.

   That's irrelevant.  It was in the movie; it was stupid; therefore
the movie contains a stupid plot device.

> 2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the
> ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you
> think that a totally irrelevany, unintelligible ending is a good
> thing just so they leave the theater thinking.

   2001 ended the way it should have--ambiguous, like the rest of
the film.  2010, on the other hand, gave me the impression of: well,
we've got all this stuff left over from the first film to clear up,
and we've got all this US- USSR conflict, and we've shot 89
minutes--let's whip up a happy ending.

> 3) I didn't measure the obelisk thingys. You really did?

   No, but I can tell the basic proportions of rectangular solids
well enough to know that they were FAR too long (or too thin).

--Steve Howard, aka Mr. Blore, the DJ who would not die
...udenva!showard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 85 1316-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #179
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:

        Books - Duane (4 msgs) & King & Moorcock & Zelazny,
        Films - James Bond & Star Trek,
        Television - Between Time and Timbuktu & V & Android

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 85 12:26 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Paperback "The Door into Shadow"

Roy Mongiovi posted a note about "The Door into Fire" and the sequel
"The Door into Shadow" (just released in paperback by Tor), and
asks,

> Is this a new way to sucker money out of us?

The simple answer (as simple as possible given all of the twists and
turns of the publishing business) is "No".  The story is roughly as
follows (I'm working from memory, as my library is at home, and some
of this information is fifth-hand word-of-mouth).

- "The Door into Fire" was Diane Duane's first novel.  It was
   originally published back in '79 or '80 [I think] by Ballantine
   [ditto].  She began work on the sequel almost immediately.  "The
   Door into Fire" was not widely distributed, and went out of print
   after less than six months.  Shortly after she negotiated an
   agreement with Ballantine for the sequel, Ballantine suspended
   (and then completely dropped) all further publication of
   SF/fantasy novels.  Unfortunately, they already had the rights to
   both books, and were reluctant to disgorge.

- Several years of litigation followed.  Duane was eventually able
   to retrieve the rights to "...Shadow", and contracted with
   Bluejay for a trade-press edition [came out in December '84, I
   think].  A few months later she was able to reclaim the rights to
   "...Fire", and arranged to have this volume also published in
   trade format by Bluejay.  Both of these trade-press issues are
   currently in print ("...Fire" has an unfortunate number of typos
   - somebody didn't proofread as carefully as ought to have been
   done).  "...Fire" was revised slightly for this edition, in order
   to connect more smoothly with the further-developed plot lines in
   "...Shadow".

- Tor Books is now in the process of releasing standard paperback-
   format issues of both books.  In keeping with the usual trade
   practice, there is a distinct time lag between the release of the
   trade-format editions and the standard paperback issues.  Since
   "Shadow" was released first in the trade edition, it's also the
   first to come out in the standard format.  Unfortunate, but given
   all of the complications that these books have faced on their way
   to press, it's survivable.

- Duane is working on the third volume of the set (due for release
   at the end of this year); the fourth and final is scheduled for
   the end of '86.  Goddess only knows what the quirks of the
   publishing business will due to the schedules between now and
   then.

Some of this information is given in publisher's and author's
forwards to the trade editions; I don't know if they made it into
the Tor paperbacks.

I'm extremely glad to see "The Door into Fire" back in print after
five years of total unavailability, and to see the sequels well on
the way.  I recommend this series highly, with only one minor caveat
- if you have a strong aversion to homo- or bi-sexual cultures,
these stories will push your buttons for sure.  Read them anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 85 17:44 PDT
Subject: The Tales of the Five
From: A. Marina Fournier <fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
To: gitpry!roy@topaz.arpa

Roy,

        I don't wish to be unkind, but yes, you have been asleep.
THE DOOR INTO FIRE was first published by Dell in l979.  Those of us
who bought it then waited 5 years to read the sequel.  Meanwhile,
Dell discontinued its sf line (Spider Robinson's ANTINOMY (not
antimony, trust me) was at the same time in print AND discontinued),
and Diane, as rumour had it, got about half-way through writing the
sequel when she dropped out of the circle of writers, and started
hanging out with cartoonists, and began doing that instead... Her
fans were in a bind: no sequel, no way for new folk to be told how
to buy the book (it was briefly in print in Britain, and its cover
was just as bad as Dell's cover for DIF).

        Since then, Diane has made up for lost time (once she
finished, she had to find a publisher), with two Star Trek novels
("Fun to write, but my editor says I can't write them anymore,
because the other projects need work"--at WorldCon), a children's
book called SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD (Atheneum Pr.), with at least
two sequels to that forthcoming, and assorted short stories, one in
the DIF/DIS/Tales of the Five universe, and one in the Thieves'
World universe, and perhaps some others I've missed.

        Actually, the August referred to was LAST August: it's
available now from Bluejay, otherwise I wouldn't have a copy of it.
DON'T NOT READ THE OVERTURE-- I was halfway through it, in a
friend's copy, when I decided I had to get my own.

        I really suffered while waiting for her to get her stuff
together and write again--I like her sense of humor, and the Tales
of the Five universe is one I'd like to visit--us techno-pagans have
real problems when we're away from the gods of Print and Film.
However, the gods of poetry, Earth, night sky, and dance call us,
too.  Reading her books (but not just hers) give me the same sort of
high I get after the Star Wars, Fred & Ginger, and Gene Kelly films.

        LOCUS magazine should be available through any sf-specialty
bookstore in your area, or some of the better newsstands.  It's a
monthly, and it enables you to keep up with publishing news and bios
of the authors whose works you read.  It should keep you from
"falling asleep" again.
                                Sweet dreams,
                                        A. Marina Fournier
                                        <Fournier.pasa@Xerox>

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Paperback "Door into Shadow"
Date: 21 May 85 05:57:03 GMT

> Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow"
> by Diane Duane this past week.  I was startled to find, when I got
> it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which
> will be released in August.  Is this something new, or have I been
> asleep?

        You have been asleep. "The Door into Fire" was orignally
printed about 1980 (about, my copy is buried in a box at the moment)
be DELL. However, I am pretty sure I have seen copies of "Fire"
floating about in the new Bluejay editions fairly recently. In any
case, I recommend you go and
        i) Read Door into Shadow
        ii) Find, then read "Door into Fire"
they are both excellent works. I have read all six of her novels,
and I think she is one of the best up and coming writers we have
around.
                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Paperback "Door into Shadow"
Date: 21 May 85 18:08:58 GMT

I hope you aren't going to be overwhelmed by responses to this, but
I'd feel really stupid to have held off on answering and found that
everone else did, too.  DOOR INTO FIRE was published several years
ago.  It is a contender on my private Best First Novel contest.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban)
Subject: Bachman/King Omnibus
Date: 23 May 85 16:07:17 GMT

        For those who are interested, the omnibus edition of the
first four novels written by Stephen King under the pseudonym of
Richard Bachman will be printed by New American Library on October
31, 1985 (my source is the publicity department at NAL).

Rick Urban
AT&T Network Systems
Columbus, Ohio
ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu

------------------------------

From: umn-cs!goldman@topaz.arpa (Matthew D. Goldman )
Subject: Re: Elric at the End of Time
Date: 22 May 85 02:47:57 GMT

I liked it.  It gave an interesting insite to yet another aspect of
MM's universe.

Matthew Goldman
Computer Science Department
University of Minnesota
...ihnp4{!stolaf}!umn-cs!goldman

------------------------------

From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar)
Subject: Re: Amber Waves etc (computers in SF)
Date: 23 May 85 18:11:06 GMT

>         One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly
> reputable SF writers including their computers in a novel.  There
> is some of this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a
> better example.  I have an image of these guys being given a
> Trash-80 for their birthday and after a month or so the illness
> strikes.  Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a
> computer whiz especially when the writer has only a superficial
> background to go on.

  Zelazny wrote "Coils" with Saberhagen (sp?) many moons ago, before
it was a craze. He also wrote "The Changling" and another one in the
same world. All three of these did a goo job of dealing with
technology, and "Coils" with computers specifically. I hope that you
were not grouping Zelazny in the "... writer has only a superficial
background...".  Though, I must admit, I was not too wild about the
Ghostwheel. But it was a bit more than your average computer ... :-)

David C. Kovar
USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber
ARPA:   davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk%amber@dartmouth

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007
Date: 23 May 85 03:39:10 GMT

>From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
>
>>From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>> Also, occasionally the film maker wants to make a faithful
>>adaptation but does not have the rights to the story.  Sound
>>far-fetched?  They are adapting the film but don't have the rights
>>to do the story?  Ian Fleming sold only a few of his novels to the
>>films but he sold all of the titles.  That is why the James Bond
>>films soured after THUNDERBALL.
>
>Not exactly.  Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert
>Broccoli.  The rest of the films ignored the books because the
>producer felt that it was SF hardware, lots of women, exotic
>locations and car/boat/plane/...  chases which made money.

My "facts" are based on hearsay and reading Variety.  I don't
remember the source of my information.  I (gulp!) bow to your better
knowledge, if it is better.  Where did you hear it?

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed 22 May 85 22:37:01-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Star Trek

> From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
> . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the
>   Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!)

This is perfectly reasonable.  You simply use E=MC^2 to convert
kilograms to energy (= 1.5E11 kg m^2/sec^2) and then divide this
into the Gravitational constant, G (= 6.67 kg m^3/sec^2) to get
4.45E-11 meters.  Well, maybe that is a /bit/ unreasonable....

> . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried
>   Spock in space without knowing any better?

There actually /is/ a good explanation here.  You see, Saavik is
actually half Vulcan and half Romulan and was not raised on Vulcan.
It is quite possible that she wouldn't know anything about Vulcan
"afterlife".  [This information is based on info in one of the Star
Trek books, I can't remember which one.]

------------------------------

From: oliveb!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Obscure PBS show?
Date: 18 May 85 03:40:42 GMT

Many years ago I saw a show on PBS that I would love to get on tape
or at least see just ONE MORE TIME.  IT was called "Between Time and
Timbuktu (sp)" and I saw it on WGBH (who I think produced it).  I
believe that it was written by Kurt Vonnegut.  Does anyone remember?

How about this triple feature...
Between Time and Timbuktu
Lathe of Heaven
Overdrawn at the Memory Bank

A PBS SF overload.

Gary
(hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!olivee!gnome

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 23 May 1985 07:38:40-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Reply to request for info on "V"

I have to take pity on Tamir, who asks:

>I missed the first episode of V, and have no idea who Elizabeth
>is... or her roll as the Star Child

Well, it's clear that the role of Elizabeth in the movie is to
provide the inevitable "blond beauty" without whom no television
show can provide more than one season's worth of plots.  But
seriously, if you try to watch the V series without having seen the
preceding two TV movies, you might well be lost.  But don't keep
watching the drivel just to find out who the Star Child is -- I'll
spare you the embarrassment and pain: In the first movie, a
red-haired teenager falls for a lizard guy, who's wearing a preppie
face.  She gets captured by the Lizard Lady, herself, Diana, who has
become bored with her affair with the same lizard guy, and decides
she wants to watch him "make it" with the red-head -- all set up as
a "scientific experiment," of course.  Well, the result of that is a
pregnant red-head.  Eventually the red-head joins the rebels, and
goes into labor.  Lucky for her, the leader of the rebels is a nice
lady doctor, huh?  She has two offspring, first the normal-looking
girl-child.  The punch line is that the baby girl has a lizard
tongue.  Then, if that wasn't punchy enough, a baby lizard pops out,
and, fortunately, dies soon after.  The baby girl is, of course, the
Star Child, who has some major significance to the Lizard Lady, who
keeps trying to capture Elizabeth.  I can't believe this series
continues.  I stopped watching last fall when the plots stopped
making sense.  I watched it this week, and couldn't keep my
attention on it -- the dialog sounded like a repeat of an earlier
show.  How this clears up the confusion for you, though

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 1985 13:49-PDT
Subject: Android
From: Raymond Bates <RBATES at ISIB>

A great move "Android" is going to be on HBO (a cable tv station)
Wednesday, May 29 at 8:00 pm.  This movie didn't get the wide
distribution it deserved.  Here is a old review which was printed in
SF-Lovers last year:

Date: 14 Feb 84 9:49:56-PST (Tue)
From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Android (some plot discussion)

Over the weekend I went and saw the new movie 'Android' starring
Klaus (Nosferatu) Kinski. This is a small budget (not low budget)
film very loosely based upon 'Frankenstein'. Kinski is a research
scientist doing work on a satellite in space on androids. Android
research, however, is illegal because androids have been outlawed
after a group of them went berserk in Munich, killing and raping.
Kinski is assisted by an adroid, Max 404 (very well played by an
actor credited only as 'himself'). While the Dr. is working on the
ultimate android (blond, stacked, and submissive), Max is showing
signs of the Munich syndrome, with a fixation on Earth and women. A
disabled ship lands on the satellite with three escaped convicts on
them, one of them a woman, and the movie takes off. Any further
discussion would probably give away things that are better left for
the movie.

Klaus Kinski is very understated in the role, and handles it very
well. All of the acting in the movie is well done. The plot has some
nice twists in it, the sets and special effects (only a few, thank
god) are wonderful. The humor in the movie is sometimes reminiscent
of Dark Star, but the overall feeling of the movie is closer to
Alien or 2001. It's good. Very good.  Potentially a new classic in
SF. See it. Now.

Rating: ****.5 (out of 5) worth full price admission AND standing in
line in the rain.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 May 85 1329-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #180
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:

             Books - Story Requests Answered (3 msgs),
             Films - Dragonslayer & The Black Cauldron &
                     Rocky Horror & Star Trek III (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Publisher and Editor Reviews & 
                      Space Operas (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 85 11:34:57 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Yet another name that story

>Anyway, the plot: It starts out with a (student, woman)
>psychologist visiting another woman who's been put away as a
>schizophrenic.  Then there's this sort of segue, and it ends up in
>the patient's supposedly imaginary universe where there are only
>women and one of the women is giving virgin birth to her daughter
>and the psychologist person had been the crazy one but she's over
>it now.

This sounds like a John Varley story that I read a while ago.  I
think it was in his anthology "The Persistence of Vision".  I don't
remember the title now, but I can certainly find out if someone else
doesn't beat me to it.

-- Josh Susser
   Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 May 85 17:27:16-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #175

> Anyway, the plot: It starts out with a (student, woman)
> psychologist visiting another woman who's been put away as a
> schizophrenic.  Then there's this sort of segue, and it ends up in
> the patient's supposedly imaginary universe where there are only
> women and one of the women is giving virgin birth to her daughter
> and the psychologist person had been the crazy one but she's over
> it now.

It sounds like something in the Varley collection
_The_Barbie_Murders_, which was recently reissued under another
title.  (Then again, it might be something I read at the same time;
which won't help you tracing it.)

> "THE BLACK CAULDRON" (July 12) - first major new Disney animation
> in 5 years.  "could be the summer's surprise hit" No mention of
> the story but the title sounds promising.

Is it Lloyd Alexander's _The_Black_Cauldron_, from a series of five
books set in someplace nontrivially Welsh?  Chronicles of Prydain,
or some such?

Bard

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Story title request
Date: 23 May 85 07:44:17 GMT

>     Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally
>confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all
>these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a
>distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet
>strings which this being controls.  Then, our hero notices
>something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs
>upward into darkness.
>
>/amqueue

This sounds to me as though it might come from Alfred Bester's long
novelette, "Hell Is Forever". The story comes in a number of
segments, each of which concerns itself with one of the principals.
One character seeks the Ultimate Truth, and is sent to Hell as being
the place where he is most likely to find it. The segment's
conclusion depicts a reasonable facsimile to the scene which you
have described. My copy of this story is in the Bester collection,
\\The Light Fantastic// (Berkley/Putnam, 1976).

                                   Bill Laubenheimer
                                   UC-Berkeley Computer Science
                                   ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 23 May 85 03:24:11 GMT

>I also loved DRAGONSLAYER (although I could have done without a few
>scenes, like the baby dragons munching on the girl!).

That scene was not in the original script, I am told.  It had to be
put in.  Why?  People were coming away from the film with a tear in
their eyes and a lump in their throat saying "He killed the BABY
dragons???"  Or at least they wanted to prevent that from happening.
If you have to have your hero kill a baby something you pretty much
have to establish that it was the right thing to do.  I tend to be
pretty ambivalent about violence in film, so the scene did not
bother me (in fact I was delighted to see that they did not take the
easy way out and save everyone who is virtuous -- heros do become
martyrs sometimes but rarely in light fantasy films), but it seems
to be one of the most common complaints about the film.

>I thought the dragon must obviously have been done by two different
>groups: one did the closeup shots (all the Land_of_the_Giant-type
>dragon-on-a-crane effects that were obviously huge props), and
>another, VERY talented group did the breathtaking scenes of the
>dragon in flight.  The scene of the battle between the dragon and
>the wizard are about the best shots of a dragon I have ever seen.

All done by Industrial Light and Magic, I think but obviously one is
stop-motion and the other is full-sized mockups.  The same
approaches as in KING KONG ('33).

Yes, the Dragon is by far the best thing about the film.  She is
beautiful and is the only dragon I have ever seen on film that looks
like she could fly.  A marvelous creations.  Also she is the most
sympathetic character for me.  I love the scene where the visitors
pull out the dragon scale to impress the wizard and his response is
"You know, when a dragon gets this old it knows nothing but pain."
Vermithrax Pejoritive (sp?) just wanted to live out her days and
raise her babies, eating the occasional offering if it is there.
When her babies are killed and she gives out that plaintive cry I
really feel it myself.  And she is the last of the dragons...

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccs019@topaz.arpa (Allan McKillop)
Subject: Re: Movies
Date: 21 May 85 23:26:52 GMT

> Mike Ginsburg writes:
> "THE BLACK CAULDRON" (July 12) - first major new Disney animation
> in 5 years.  "could be the summer's surprise hit" No mention of
> the story but the title sounds promising.

I read these books back when I was a small lad.  They are a 5 book
series written by Llyod Alexander, and are based upon Welsh legends.
I lkied them when I read them, and I am looking forward to seeing
Disney's adapation (especially since THE BLACK CAULDRON is the
second book in the series...).

Allan McKillop
(...ucbvax!ucdavis!minnie!ccs019)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 May 85 16:37:16-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Rocky Horror Video and audience participation

In response to all those who mailed me about the availablity of the
video, the copy I have is on CBS/FOX video (UK) in PAL (not NTSC)
Beta or VHS format. I don't know if it is available in NTSC but if
anybody in the States is still interested then Snail-Mail to CBS/FOX
video, London, UK should get there. The box is marked
  (C) CBS/FOX 1975
  Cover Packaging (C) 1984
  Printed and Manufactured in England.

Film videos tend to be more likely to be released in the UK than in
the States due to the much higher VCR ownership density over here so
I doubt if its UK availability implies a US release scheduled.

Thanks to all who responded with info about the audience
participation particularly to Hank Shiffman (Shiffman@RAMOTH.SWW.
Symbolics.COM) who mailed the text of the entire film including
audience bits ! No more copies from anyone please !!

                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 23 May 1985 16:47:48-PDT
From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Star Trek III

> From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
>      I just bought the LaserDisc version of this.  Has anybody
> noticed any of these really glaring flaws:
>  . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the
>    Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!)
>  . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried
>   Spock in space without knowing any better?

It just so happens that I rented the tape of ST3 the other day,
having missed it in the theatre.  I recall the "5000 kilograms" as
actually being something similar in sound, but not quite as
ridiculous.  One presumes that the lesson of Battlestar Galactica
(and Star Wars) had been learned.

As for Saavik not telling Kirk, perhaps only male Vulcans know it?
This is hardly the most serious inconsistency in the story.  For
example, when Kirk shouts the Klingon equivalent of "Beam me up,
Scotty", how is the Klingon transporter operator supposed to know
that he is to pick up both Kirk and Spock II?  And just how did
Kirk's people overpower the Klingons on board with no weapons?
Also, wouldn't you be a bit nervous taking a Klingon ship right into
Federation territory and landing it (!!!) on Vulcan?

I could go on and on.  The movie went nowhere, and was pretty
boring.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: SDIII: TSfS
Date: 23 May 85 14:53:29 GMT

>> Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!)
> No doubt I should explain this one two.  This is due to the
> revolutionary theory of "Berglundic relativity," which has as a
> consequence that D=mb^2, so that just as now physicists talk about
> masses (of elementary particles) in terms of Bev's and Gev's
> (units of energy), in the twenty-third century, they refer to
> distances in terms of mass.  (:-), in case you hadn't guessed.)

Actually, one can already translate between mass and distance as the
two are related directly to one another in two different ways.

One, in GR there is an equivalence given by MassxNewton's
constant/c^2=distance A distance of 5000 kilograms is therefore
about 3x10^-22 centimeters! :-)

Two, perhaps they meant the Compton wavelength of that amount of
mass.  In this case Distance= Planck's constant/(massxc).  In this
way we obtain about 10^-44 centimeters.

Either way we see that the cloaking device is amazingly effective at
close quarters!

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (P.S.CHISHOLM)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Publisher and Editor reviews
Date: 22 May 85 17:44:32 GMT

pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
> Does anyone have any advice concerning which publisher an unknown
> author should contact?

In the November 1984 SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE's Market Report,
Bluejay says, "Only looking for published authors". Donning/
Starblaze says, "Willing to review material by new authors": is that
supposed to be encouraging or discouraging?  (No matter, this
month's SFC would seem to indicate they haven't been publishing as
fast as they're buying, anyway.)

ALL of the other major publishers will buy a good novel.  If you and
Asimov sent them good novels on the same day, they'd buy both.
(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline and
sample chapters, *not* the whole novel.  You don't even need to have
the novel finished.)

> How much difference could it make if I waited to submit my book
> material until after I've had a short story or two published
> somewhere?

A dozen stories, published mostly in a single magazine over a period
of a few years, *might* make a difference.  However, most book
editors don't read SF magazines.  Don't wait.

As to advice on what magazines to submit to: send your stories to
the places you'd like to be published in.  ASIMOV'S is pretty
clearly the most respected magazine in the field today.  ANALOG is
hungry for stories, especially but not exclusively hard SF.  F&SF is
a bit slow.  AMAZING seems to be barely surviving, but responds
promptly, and is better than most magazines at giving you some
comments on what's wrong.  PLAYBOY and OMNI don't buy much fiction.
There are some other small magazines, too, and original anthologies
looking for stories on a given topic; check market reports in SFC or
LOCUS.

Keep your manuscripts moving.  One trick I've discovered is to
address the "next" pair of envelopes when you address the first.
For example, when you type up the envelopes to ANALOG, also type up
a pair to AMAZING.  Then, if the manuscript happens to come back,
stuff it RIGHT AWAY in the next set, ship it out again, and prepare
another set.  Don't wait for one story to sell before starting (or
even submitting) the next one.  If you don't have a next one, write
it.

For more information: SFC and LOCUS are valuable sources of
information, not the least being the occasional Market Reports.
WRITER'S MARKET describes manuscript mechanics, e.g., self-addressed
stamped envelopes, a guide to estimating postage, suggested waiting
times and pay scales.  Once you've sold you first story, you can
join the Science Fiction Writer's of America, which has a Handbook
and a newsletter.

Good luck!

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 24 May 85 02:10:03 GMT

>Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" is
>supposed to be?

Westerns used to be called "horse operas" for reasons I am not sure.
It may be connected to the term "soap opera".  When a science
fiction story was clearly just a western (a horse opera), with a
blaster instead of a six-gun, aliens instead of indians, and a
rocket instead of a horse, it was called a "space opera," the space
equivalent of a horse opera.  I think it was F&SF -- in any case one
of the science fiction magazines of the '50s -- that had as part of
an ad on the back cover two stories, one a western one a space opera
with the identical plot.

>The only space opera I've ever heard of is "Aniara", by Blomdahl,
>and that because it was on the same record with the "2001"
>soundtrack.

I remember that record and the opera.  It was based on the epic poem
by Martinson.  Martinson won a Nobel Prize for literature and ANIARA
was his most major work as I understand it.  He won a Nobel Prize in
part for writing science fiction.  The plot concerns a generation
ship space craft that became lost in space and is destined to wander
eternally.  The music fits the story.  I have a Columbia Masterworks
recording of the whole opera, but have never had the patience to sit
down and listen to it.  Avon under their series Flair published the
book a few years back.

More than you wanted to know?

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 23 May 85 17:57:42 GMT

>From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
>  Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera"
>  is supposed to be?  The only space opera I've ever heard of is
>  "Aniara", by Blomdahl,

I believe the term as commonly used is related to the term "horse
opera" that used to describe western TV shows and novels.  The
implication is that the only difference between the two genre is the
level of technology while the plots and characters are otherwise
interchangeable.

A classic example would probably be the film "Battle Beyond the
Stars" which was a remake of "The Magnificent Seven" which in turn
was a remake of "The Seven Samurai".  Others would be "Outland"
which was a remake of "High Noon" and "Star Wars" which was at least
inspired by "The Big Fortress".

"Opera" in this context implies a scenario with much action and
passion but little real substance, as with most classical operas.
(Bet I catch some flames for that one (-:{ ).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 May 85 1020-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #181
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:

           Adminsitrivia - Lost Message and Head Crashes,
           Books - Duane (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Lem &
                   Stapledon,
           Films - Lensman & Android & Star Trek III &
                   The Empire Strikes Back & 2001,
           Radio - Jack Flanders,
           Miscellaneous - Dr. Who Convention & Space Operas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 May 85 09:50:28 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Lost Messages

Hi folks,
        Once again I am here to apologize for problems on this
digest.  In the early morning hours of Saturday we had a head crash
on the system.  Normally this wouldn't be too bad and wouldn't
affect us except we found that the last set of backup tapes were
screwed up due to a bad tape drive.  This means that some of the
messages that I had saved to go into a digest at a later date were
lost.
        Some of you have complained about getting duplicate copies
recently of issue #162 (and possibly others).  I believe this is due
to the head crash. These messages were probably among the files
restored and were resent automatically by the mailer.
        If you sent a message for a digest before noon on Friday and
do not see it appear before issue V.10 #180 please resubmit it as it
was lost in the crash.  Thanks for your patience.

Saul

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: The Tales of the Five
Date: 25 May 85 08:16:26 GMT

> work"--at WorldCon), a children's book called SO YOU WANT TO BE A
> WIZARD (Atheneum Pr.), with at least two sequels to that
> forthcoming,

Minor quibble, "So You Want to Be A Wizard" was published by
Delacorte Press, not Atheneum (Delacorte is owned and operated by
Doubleday). Also, the sequel is already out, it is called "Deep
Wizardry", by the same publisher (and is pretty good, if you like
children's books).
                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 85 17:59 EST
From: Andrew <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: "The Door into Fire"/"The Door into Shadow" by Diane Duane

gitpyr!roy@topaz.arpa (Roy J. Mongiovi) writes:

> Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow"
> by Diane Duane this past week.  I was startled to find, when I got
> it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which
> will be released in August.  Is this something new, or have I been
> asleep?  I thought the usual way is to publish volume 1 first, and
> then follow it up with volume 2, not vice versa....

"The Door into Fire" was first published by Dell in late 1979, less
than a year before they decided fantasy/sf was Not What They Wanted
To Carry, and canned Jim Frenkel, f/sf editor, along with their
entire line except for "Dreamsnake" (by Vonda McIntyre) and "The
Snow Queen" (by Joan Vinge), both Hugo/Nebula award-winning novels.

"The Door into Shadow", second book in the series, was bought for
the newly formed BlueJay Books (edited and published by Jim Frenkel)
over four years later.  As "Fire" had been out of print in the U.S.
for about four years, and the only copies available were those
imported from England, Frenkel decided to also bring out "Fire" in a
reprint trade paperback.

> Is this a new way to sucker money out of us?  Did the publisher
> take statistics and determine that it wasn't good enough to just
> split single novels up into several volumes to make more bucks?
> (As an aside, I bet that if "The Lord of the Rings" was published
> today it would be in five volumes instead of three.  Sigh.)  Maybe
> too many people buy volume 1 and then decided not to read volume
> 2.  What gives?

I suspect that the reason "Fire" was originally released after
"Shadow" in the oversized editions was to build up the market for
those who wanted a uniform version of "Fire".  If there isn't
immediate demand for a book when it comes out, it disappears
permanently from the shelves in short order.  So, the publication of
"Shadow" (a new novel, and therefore more likely to sell than a
reprint) was set, and helped create demand for the reprinted (albeit
slightly revised -- with five more years as a writer, Duane had
things she wanted changed, some to strengthen the overall series)
first novel.  I fail to see anything objectionable in this.

From there, the two month differential in the mass market paperback
editions (from Tor) follows very simply.  Publishers almost
invariably have a standard waiting time between trade and mass
market editions.  Since "Shadow" was released by BlueJay before
"Fire", "Shadow" is being released by Tor before "Fire".

As for the Evil Plot of artificially separating big books into
multi-volumed series, both "Fire" and "Shadow" can be read on their
own as individual novels.  What makes them a series (two of four
volumes) is that they are even richer read together (and, of course,
have many of the same characters and background).

                                   Andrew Sigel
PS: The novels are both well worth reading.  I highly recommend all
of the author's works, and this includes the "young adult" fantasies
"So You Want to be a Wizard?" and "Deep Wizardry", and the Star Trek
novels, "The Wounded Sky" and "My Enemy, My Ally".

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 25 May 1985 20:35:04-PDT
From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: HEINLEIN REFERENCES IN MUSIC

> there is even a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song in which water
> brothership is mentioned... the context of the rest of the song
> shows how 'revolutionary' the ideas were.

While there might be a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song which mentions
water brothership, or they might have recorded this song, Jefferson
Airplane did mention water brothership in the song "Triad", from the
album "Crown of Creation". The song is sung by Grace Slick, and is
about a woman who loves two men. Her solution to the problem of
which to choose is described in the song:

        There's just one answer that comes to me;
        Sister lovers, water brothers,
        And, in time, maybe lovers.
        So you see, what we can do is to try something new.
        I don't really see
        Why can't we go on as three?

Quite a bit of the song is intended to convince someone that this is
acceptable.

At least some of the members of Jefferson Airplane have read
Heinlein. A later album by Grace Slick, Paul Kantner, David Crosby,
Graham Nash, and others, entitled "Blows Against the Empire" is
(loosely) based on _Methusaleh's Children_. (At least it took the
"hijack the starship" idea; the hijackers are hippies, unappreciated
in "Amerika" (sic).)

Steve Kovner

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner
ARPA:  kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: osiris!rob@topaz.arpa (Robert St. Amant)
Subject: Lem
Date: 24 May 85 16:25:22 GMT

Is Stanislaw Lem still the most popular sf writer in the world?  I
remember hearing that said a few years ago.  I've only read a couple
of Pirx pieces and Mortal Engines.  It's enjoyable reading.  Is he
popular in the U.S.?  I just haven't seen that much of his work
around.
                                Rob St. Amant

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Last and First Men
Date: 25 May 85 19:24:18 GMT

Try Dover Publications; I seem to recall seeing an edition of Last
and First Men and Starmaker by Dover a while back. They specialize
in out-of-print books; their catalogs are real eye-openers.
Unfortunately, I don't have their address with me. Maybe some other
net reader can oblige.

I also read LaFM a number of years ago; it's worth the experience,
but it seems to go on forever. I prefer some of Stapledon's shorter
works, and recommend Sirius and Odd John (I think they're still in
print in the Penguin editions). To the best of my knowledge, these
were the first fictional treatments of artificial enhancement of
mental capabilities. Olaf's style tends to be wooden at times, but
his treatment of the impact of these enhancements on the characters
involved is well-done.

                       -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Animation Fans
Date: 24 May 85 21:03:31 GMT

I think it was L.A.Con II that showed LENSMAN.  Is this not
official?

LENSMAN seemed to take more from STAR WARS than from E. E. Smith's
series.  Some characters had the same name, but the "Galactic
Patrol" seemed to be the same generic, no-frills organization that
fights the bad guys in VOTRON (Voltron?  Y'now, "I'll form the head!
& etc.)  Any resemblance between the plots of the movie and the
books went right over my head.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Android
Date: 24 May 85 04:00:00 GMT

Well, I too saw android last year.  It was tolerable, but certainly
not worth the 4.5 stars given in 2082@topaz.arpa.  The production
values are fairly good, and the story has one interesting twist, but
otherwise it is yet another rehashing of Frankenstein.  If Mary
Shelly were alive and got a royalty for each time that story was
redone, she would be very rich.

This was yet another example of SF used as a device for a non-sf
story by a writer who understands nothing of robotics, AI or space
travel.

Perhaps OK to watch on cable (which is dying, anyway) but not a 4
star film.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook
Date: 24 May 85 16:47:36 GMT

> From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
>>From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
>>      . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently
>>        buried Spock in space without knowing any better?
>
> Now THAT makes sense.  That never would have occurred to me.

        Spock wrote in his will that he wanted to be buried in
space.  Apparently, he felt that being of mixed blood precluded the
Vulcan religious right.  Kirk would follow Spock's feelings, not
having heard of the Vulcan rites.  As closed mouth as Vulcans are
about things like sex, I'd guess Vulcans would be too closed mouth
to talk about Vulcan funerals anyway.  You can try asking a Vulcan
for further details yourself.

                        Lord Kahless

------------------------------

Date: Sun 26 May 85 16:22:50-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: The Empire Strikes Back in video: the conclusion

     Tower Video is having a video blowout sale, and I picked up a
copy of TESB in Beta HiFi for $19.99.  Unlike the LaserDisc version
which was compressed to 120 minutes, the videotape version is at the
original speed and so is 124 minutes.

     The audio quality difference is SUBSTANTIAL.  CBS/FOX, in their
attempt to fit it on one instead of two discs, completely destroyed
TESB in the LV version.  The damage to the soundtrack is the most
noticable, but after a while the speedup in the video becomes
distracting.

     The videotape version, on the other hand, has great sound and
okay video (I wish they did something more artistic than shooting
down the center).

     I am tempted to write CBS/FOX demanding that they make
available a two-disc version of TESB, and that any CAV "collector
version" be three discs.  I suggest other LV users do the same.  LV
should be the top-grade format for movies, and we should not
tolerate economizing measures which destroy the artistic quality of
what we watch.

-- Mark --

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 26 May 1985 20:26:27-PDT
From: kevin%bach.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack
From: anything you want with TECO and DDT)
Subject: ``2001'' -- a warning

MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built
into it!  This intermission is of course rather jarring to the flow
of the movie.  (Those of you who are in the Boston area -- I
attended the second showing on the first day which Coolidge Corners
showed it; on my way out I talked to the people who were running the
place; they agreed with my sentiments and claimed to have two
projectionists working on rectifying the problem.)

        Kevin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 85 16:35:41 pdt
From: sonia@aids-unix (Sonia Schwartzberg)
Subject: Jack Flanders

I have some information on this wonderful show.  Write me with a
return address and I'll tell you what I know.

        S.Schwartzberg          arpa: sonia@aids-unix

------------------------------

From: watarts!dmak@topaz.arpa (Derwin Mak)
Subject: Last Chance to attend Who Party 7
Date: 20 May 85 00:34:10 GMT

That's right!!  In a little over a week, Who Party 7 will be history
and you will have missed what will probably be Jon Pertwee's last
appearance in Canada for some time.

For those new to the net, Who Party 7 will take place at the
Valhalla Inn (Kitchener, Ontario) on May 25 and 26.  There will be
many other attractions besides Jon Pertwee including panel
discussions, a costume contest, displays, and dealers.  The
convention runs from 10am to 10pm both days and you will have to
clone yourself many times over to go to all the events.

For further details, send mail to dmak @ watarts or for faster
results (time is running out!!) phone (519) 578-2957.  Tickets may
be purchased at the door or obtained in advance by sending a special
delivery (normal mail will not arrive in time) letter to:
           Who Party 7
           104 Kingston Crescent
           Kitchener, Ont
           N2B 2T7

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 25 May 85 02:49:17 GMT

Alastair Milne wants a definition of the term "Space Opera". I can
do no better than refer him to the introduction by noted SF author
and bibliographer Brian W. Aldiss, in his collection of such stories
entitled "Space Opera" (Doubleday, 1974). Some excerpts which may
help clear up the issue:

"...Space opera was heady, escapist stuff, charging on without
overmuch regard for logic or literacy, while often throwing off
great images, excitements, and aspirations. Nowadays -- rather like
grand opera -- it is considered to be in decline, and is in the
hands of imitators, or else has evolved into sword-and-sorcery."

[On a definition of "space opera":]

"...The term is both vague and inspired, and must have been coined
with both affection and some scorn, analogously with soap opera and
horse opera. And, analogously with opera itself, space opera has
certain conventions which are essential to it ... Ideally, the Earth
must be in peril, there must be a quest and a man to match the
mighty hour. That man must confront aliens and exotic creatures.
Space must flow past the ports like wine from a pitcher.  Blood must
run down the palace steps, and ships launch out into the louring
dark. There must be a woman fairer than the skies and a villain
darker than a Black Hole. And all must come right in the end."

There follow several excellent examples of the sub-genre. If you do
not find this material sufficiently exciting (or perhaps outrageous,
depending on your taste), another Aldiss anthology, \\Galactic
Empires// (St. Martin's, 1976), will lead you even farther in that
dimension.
                                   Bill Laubenheimer
                                   UC-Berkeley Computer Science
                                   ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 May 85 1043-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #182
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 May 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 182

Today's Topics:

          Books - Kurtz & Peake & Time Stories (2 msgs) &
                  Story Requests Answered (2 msgs),
          Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & James Bond,
          Television - Dr. Who & PBS Shows,
          Miscellaneous - Space Operas (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 85 18:05 EST
From: Andrew <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Katherine Kurtz

   About a month ago, I incorrectly stated that a collection of
Deryni short stories will be appearing this summer.  It would appear
I was about a year premature, as the mss. was very recently sent to
Del Rey, and will probably be published in about a year.

   As for the second novel in the new Kelson Trilogy, it should be
out this September (the first time two of her books have appeared
less than a year apart), and the third novel is in progress.

------------------------------

From: masscomp!carlton@topaz.arpa (Carlton Hommel)
Subject: Re: Gormenghast
Date: 25 May 85 03:02:10 GMT

I assume what is being discussed is the Gormenghast Trilogy, by
Mervyn Peake.  It consists of _Titus Groan_, _Gormenghast_, and
_Titus Alone_.  My copy lists an original publication date of 1946,
with a reissue in 1967.

Alastair Milne writes:
>   The cover art is very good.

You guys must be talking about a reissue.  I have the Ballantine
1968 printing, with a blotchy read, white, and green cover.  I'm
glad to see the covers have been improved upon.

>   "Ghormenghast" is 50 (on a good day) pages of action stuffed
>   into 500 pages of print.  By "action" I mean anything at all
>   happening.

I think you missed the point of the book.  Peake is primarily a poet
and an illustrator.  He didn't set out to write a rousing tale of
action adventure; he was using the written word to capture the
essence of characters he had already drawn.  I feel very sorry for
you if your copies do not have his sketches.  First editions of the
Ballantine release had a center insert of eight glossy pages of his
work.  Later editions relied solely on untextured, black ink
sketches.

Granted, some parts of the novels were downright dull to a 17 yr
old.  I found the _Titus Alone_ a grave dissapointment after
_Gormenghast_.  But I imagine that upon rereading, I will find new
things to marvel over.

Some truly great writers have their own styles.  Heinlein writes of
the supercompetent, Anthony of the adolescent.  Vance writes
travelogues, Asprin writes comedies.  Decrying Peake for lack of
"action-adventure" is like depreciating Hogan for lack of "love
interest."

>   How could you make a movie of it?  What is there to show?

Lots of scenes stand out in my mind.  The Great Fire.  Barquentine
chastising Steerpike.  The great chase leading to Steerpike's
capture.  The imprisioning of the twins, Cora and Clarise.  The
Countess and her birds.  The home life of the Prunesquallors.
Flay's kitchen.  The Schoolroom.  And, of course, the main
character, Gormenghast Castle.

Dune suffered in its translation to the screen because they tried to
pack 400 pages of action into a two hour movie.  If we extend your
500/50 thought, we find from 150 - 200 pages of action for the
entire trilogy.  Just about what the serialization of Star Wars ran
to. :-)

Dune also suffered from an attack of excessive costume design, which
took liberties with the novel.  No need to experiment with
Ghormenghast; Peake already described each characted in meticulous
detail.

        Carl Hommel

------------------------------

Subject: "time flowing backwards"
Date: 24 May 85 20:34:48 PDT (Fri)
From: Cindy Tittle <tittle@uci-icse>

That sounds a lot like "The Golden Boy" (I *think* - it had "golden"
somewhere in there).  I don't remember the author.

The setting was in the future, where mutants are hunted down and
'euthed'.  Well, one agent comes across a golden mutant who remembers
the future.  They try to kill him, but can't.

The interesting point of the story was made when one character,
talking to the man who was hunting the mutant, asked if it wasn't a
bad idea to kill off the mutants (because of something better
evolving).  The man replied that the mutant they *couldn't* kill
would be the one that was superior.  Then, at the end, when they
fail to kill him, he is horrified, because the mutant has no real
intelligence.

Sorry so sketchy, but I read this about six years ago.  Hope it
helps.

-Cindy

------------------------------

From: rtech!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Bulger)
Subject: Re: "time flowing backwards"
Date: 27 May 85 00:49:10 GMT

> From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
> Speaking of time flowing backwards, I read a "short" story a while
> back and I have no idea where I put the magazine, or even if I
> still have it.  It was about a person (alien, I believe) on the
> run that could "remember" the future and plan his path on what he
> "remembered". He had no view of the past, immediate or otherwise.
> (Sorry, that's all I remember)

This sounds like "The Golden Man" by Philip K. Dick - it's the title
story of a short story collection of his.  The title character is a
mutant who escapes capture or danger by selecting a safe path out of
his "memories" of possible futures, and who has no conception of the
past.

------------------------------

To: Anne Marie Quint <quint@rutgers.arpa>
Subject: Re: Story title request
Date: 24 May 85 22:53:31 PDT (Fri)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

The story in which you describe the last scene as

>      Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally
> confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all
> these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a
> distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet
> strings which this being controls.  Then, our hero notices
> something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs
> upward into darkness.

is probably "Hell is Forever", a fairly long short story by Alfred
Bester (author of "Fondly Fahrenheit" and "The Stars My
Destination"), collected in "The Light Fantastic".  It involves six
people who do terrible things, and are finally approached by the
Devil, who offers them anything they want.  When they ask what the
price is, he says that each of them has already paid it.  The story
breaks up into an episode for each of them where they get their
wish, and in each case their wish is twisted to be a hell for them.
The "Hero" you mention is only one of these six.  His wish was to
meet God.  He gets his wish, and as you pointed out, learns that God
is himself controlled by another.  Since this hero was so worried
about the existence of a God, living for the rest of eternity with
this knowledge was the worst thing that could happen to him.

It's possible that this is not your story, since the hero who met
God did not go through any problems or dangers (his was the shortest
of the six episodes: the others were excellent and more intricate).
I believe the God episode was the last of the six, and it may be
that time has blurred the seperate heroes of each episode into one
in your mind.

I think this story is Great, but then I think about 80% of Bester's
work is Great.  That's an amasingly high percentage, considering
most other major authors have each only turned out two or three of
what I would call "Great".  Bester's average stuff is of a quality
and depth that most other authors only achieve once or twice in
their carrier.

Good Luck       Jim

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24 May 1985 22:09:42-PDT
From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (VAXworks dtn 223-9408)
To: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: story request response - remembering the future

Gaylene Callaghan requested the title of a story about a being
living his life backwards in time, and thereby "remembering" his
future. I dimly remember such a story entitled "The Stochastic Man",
although the author, deservedly, is unremembered. Brunner?  Not
sure.

As they say in California, "Like, the concept was way rad, but just
too totally awesome for me to get into, y'know?"

Wicked awesome,
Mark

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai)
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show
Date: 24 May 85 00:07:57 GMT

>> From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
>> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits
>> from this film.
>From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
>    There is now available an album of Rocky Horror, complete with
>audience responses, recorded at the 8th street Playhouse in
>Manhattan.  I do not know what it is like, nor how widespread it
>is, or whether it is stereo or mono. I do know it was remixed. I do
>not yet have the money to buy it.

I got the album for $10 (Can.) at a boxing day sale.  It is a
planned and rehearsed "performance" of audience participation.  (by
the way , it's called "The RHPS Audience Particip-(SAY IT!)-ation
Album", a double-disc set) If you want to learn more about the
participation bits, this is a good source.  However, it doesn't even
begin to compare with actually being there.  For one thing, many of
the lines were shouted exactly in unison by the audience, and there
are relatively few 'ad libs'.  Most of the visually-cued lines were
left out. (e.g. "kick the tire please", "rope please" ) The mixing
was not good; the sound track was stereo but parts of it came out
mono, and sometimes there seems to be an echo (from the screen?).
If you don't have the sound track you might think of buying it, but
if you do and you're not exactly a fan, well, convince a friend to
buy it so you can look at the script that's on the record sleeves!

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
> RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it was destroyed by the
audience participation.

Well, Mr. Brust, one person's meat is another's dioxin.  There are
certainly some of us who think that audience participation enhanced
our enjoyment of the film.  And PLEEEZZ , don't let's start another
bout of discussion on whether this is GOOD or BAD! :-}

Henry Chai
Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto
{watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot lear)
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show
Date: 27 May 85 08:15:55 GMT

>> From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
>> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits
>> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits
>> of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on
>> video, I'd like to try and jog my memory.
>
> I, for one, will not.  RHPS was sheer delight as a film
> until it was destroyed by the audience participation.
>               -- SKZB

UUUGGGHH!

        It has been the audience that has kept RHPS alive all these
years!  If it were not for the audience, Rocky would have gone in
and out of the movie theatres just like any ordinary movie.  The
movie itself is not that funny - It's the audience that makes me
laugh.  However, if you do not like the audience participation, try
renting a VCR tape and seeing it home.  That way no one can spoil
your movie.

                                        eliot lear
uucp: [{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!topaz!lear]
arpa: [Lear@RU-BLUE.arpa]

------------------------------

From: x!wjr@topaz.arpa (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007
Date: 24 May 85 23:24:38 GMT

>>From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
>>>    From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>>>    Ian Fleming
>>>    sold only a few of his novels to the films but he sold
>>>    all of the titles.
>>>
>>Not exactly.  Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert
>>Broccoli.
> My "facts" are based on hearsay and reading Variety.  I don't
> remember the source of my information.  I (gulp!) bow to your
> better knowledge, if it is better.  Where did you hear it?
>                               Mark Leeper
>                               ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

        I can't speak for Mr. Shiffman but I recall reading a
magazine article many years ago, right after Goldfinger became a big
hit, which mentioned that Broccoli and his then partner
Saltzman(sp?) had bought the film rights to all of Fleming's books
except one, _Casino_Royale_, which Fleming had already sold to
someone else. I'm afraid I don't remember which magazine, but it was
one of the major glossies of the time (Time, Newsweek, Life, ... ?).

        Also in support of the idea that Broccoli & Co. bought the
story rights is the fact that the films have more in common with the
books than just the titles. The films usually have the same
characters, the same locales, and you even find tattered remanants
of the original plot line.

William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701
Tel: (617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 May 85 18:36:14-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Dr Who on the radio

The BBC has partially relented on its shelving of Dr. Who and will
now produce a radio series for transmission later this year with the
current tv cast playing the parts. The tv version is still scheduled
to return next year.

                        Alan

------------------------------

From: ism70!dianeh@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Obscure PBS show?
Date: 24 May 85 16:14:00 GMT

>Many years ago I saw a show on PBS that I would love to get on tape
>or at least see just ONE MORE TIME.  IT was called "Between Time
>and Timbuktu (sp)" and I saw it on WGBH (who I think produced it).
>I believe that it was written by Kurt Vonnegut.  Does anyone
>remember?

>How about this triple feature...
>Between Time and Timbuktu
>Lathe of Heaven
>Overdrawn at the Memory Bank

Hear, hear!! Between_Time_and_Timbuktu:_A_Space_Odyssey is one of my
all-time favorites (along with Lathe_of_Heaven, which I consider one
of the best sf films ever, especially given its small budget).
Between_Time... was based on several Vonnegut books, but I don't
know if he did the screenplay. I've often wondered if PBS offers
tapes of its shows, and I still don't know, so I'd be interested if
anyone does know.  Since alot of the shows are produced by the local
PBS stations, there might be some problem as to who owns them, which
might prevent there being available. Still, I think it'd be a great
way for PBS to earn money.  Sure beats the hell out a Pledge Drives!

Diane

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 23 May 85 18:26:27 GMT

>From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
>  Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera"
>  is supposed to be?

Jeez, I almost hate to do it, but --

space opera is named by association with "horse opera", i.e. 2-reel
shoot'em-ups.  If a movie or story can be translated from SF to
Bonanza by word replacement of "phaser" with "Winchester" and
"spaceship" with "noon stage" -- then it is space opera.  The term
has gotten to be extended to include most all mindless public-appeal
SF, especially in movies (not to mention the Star Wars flicks, which
I persist in thinking are not mindless); even the recent book "The
Helmsman", which reads to me like a translation of Alexander Kent
imitating C.S. Forester.

Ghods know why 2-reel oaters became known as horse opera.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 26 May 85 20:49:27 GMT

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
> Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera"
> is supposed to be?
>
> Acknowledging that it probably has nothing to do with real opera,
> what is it?
>
  Probably one of a long series of responses.

  Space opera refers to the Western-in-Space genre typified by Buck
Rogers, Flash Gordon, Star Wars, et. al.  The term is related to
soap opera and horse opera (western).

--Steve Howard
-- ...udenva!showard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 85 1148-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #183
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 May 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 183

Today's Topics:

                     Art - Cover Art By Freas,
                     Books - Hambly & Buckaroo Banzai &
                           Some Reviews & A Story Request,
                     Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & 
                           James Bond (3 msgs) &
                           Star Trek III

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (Mike (I'll be mellow when I'm
From: dead) Meyer)
Subject: More cover art, +
Date: 28 May 85 09:34:23 GMT

Gee, this looks like a nice time to try this, what with cover art
and the following:

wildbill@ucbvax.UUCP (William J. Laubenheimer) writes:
>>     Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally
>>confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all
>>these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a
>>distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet
>>strings which this being controls.  Then, our hero notices
>>something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs
>>upward into darkness.
>
>This sounds to me as though it might come from Alfred Bester's long
>novelette, "Hell Is Forever". The segment's conclusion depicts a
>reasonable facsimile to the scene which you have described. My copy
>of this story is in the Bester collection, \\The Light Fantastic//
>(Berkley/Putnam, 1976).

I haven't read HIF, but it sure sounds like the illustration is on
page 79 of "Frank Kelly Freas, the Art of Science Fiction." It is
credited as being for "The Long Way Home," by Anderson. My memory of
"TLWH" indicates that this is false [my memory says TLWH is about a
starship that gets stranded out in the Oort cloud, and the
crew/passengers are walking to earth], but I could easily be
mistaken.

FKF is, of course, one of the best SF artists ever to have put pen
to paper. He consistently captures the feel of a story in a way that
is otherwise all to rare. I'd like to find out what he's up to these
days.  He occasionally appears in his old haunt (the cover of
Analog), so I think he's still around. Anyone know for sure?

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 85 12:34 PDT
Subject: ISHMAEL, by Barbara Hambly
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

           ISHMAEL, a Star Trek Novel by Barbara Hambly.
       NY: Pocket Books, l985. Pb., cover by Vallejo, $3.50.

        This is a Trek novel wherein events happen so that Spock
finds himself in the universe of another late 60's TV show, "Here
Come the Brides", and some characters from other TV shows of a
similar period (plus some surprise guests from film media of more
recent vintage).  (This is yet another in the line of books my
friend Meg Garrett called me up to say, "You have to read this one!"
One of them was Diane Duane's DOOR INTO FIRE, so I usually am ready
to listen.)

        Due to the plethora of complaints about spoilers in reviews,
I don't think I want to say anything more about the plot.  I did
enjoy this book immensely, and it is DEFINITELY light reading. I
think a number of people who have read Barbara's other books will
enjoy it, and if you liked what Diane Duane did for Star Trek
novels, you will probably like this one, as well.

        I do have an anecdote concerning this novel.  Meg and some
other friends and I were waiting outside of McCabe's in Santa
Monica, to see Silly Wizard, a Scottish group who play traditional
and quasi-traditional Scottish music (and a few from Ireland, as
well) on May 10th.  We were discussing the book, and some of the
characters, and wondering if any of us would get to a convention in
the near future where Ms. Hambly was likely to show up.  While I
thought she was living in Riverside these days, I was not sure, and
the only other alternative was to write to her care of the
publisher, and wait for a reply. I happened to look up 31st Street,
and saw the woman who had introduced me to McCabe's a few years ago,
and Lo and behold! Barbara Hambly was right next to her.  This was
only a mild surprise, because they had gone to the same schools in
Ontario.

        We conspired to hold the book in such a way as the author
would be unable to miss seeing it, and when she was close enough,
Meg said, "You wicked woman!", whereupon Barbara laughed.  Paul
Davis spoke up and said, "It's a silly book."  Barbara replied, "Of
course it's silly.  It's probably the first INTENTIONALLY silly Trek
novel published.  There are a number of other silly ones, but not
because the author set out to write it that way."  She was then
bombarded with queries about this character, and that one, to which
suitable replies were made, and interested parties may query me
AFTER reading the book.  She did mention that she had asked her
editors to check copyrights VERY carefull, due to the aforementioned
characters being on other shows, and she was assured most sincerely
that this was done, and approved.

                                A. Marina Fournier
                                <fournier.pasa@Xerox>

------------------------------

From: oliveb!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Looking for a copy of Buckaroo Banzai (book)
Date: 22 May 85 16:47:24 GMT

I'm having a hard time trying to find a copy of Buckaroo Banzai by
McRauch (sp).

If there is anyone out there that wants to get rid of their copy,
please drop me a line.

Thanks,
        Gary
(hplabs,ihnp4,allegra)oliveb!olivee!gnome

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 May 85 04:57:58 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Some short reviews: Tiptree, Klein, Rucker

I bought the latest novels by James Tiptree, Jr, T E D Klein and
Rudy Rucker in hardcover because I had high expectations of them.  I
now find that I'm not quite satisfied with any of the books, each
for different reasons, and I suppose that should teach me something
about holding expectations (or buying hardcovers!).

The best of the three is probably the Tiptree book, BRIGHTNESS FALLS
FROM THE AIR (Tor, Feb. 1985, 382 pp.).  The story involves a large
cast of characters (thoughtfully laid out in an appendix at the end,
which is useful for those times when you forget who does what), all
of whom, for one reason or another, are present on the planet Damiem
when it is passed by the final shell of ionized particles shed in
the explosion of the star Vlyracocha.  The spectacular auroral
display and time distortions are used by the bad guys to distract
from some covert activities, and the action in the novel proceeds
along the lines of a genre thriller a la Alastair Maclean or Robert
Ludlum.  It's not all that bad a thriller, but I expected something
more given the excellent past work by Tiptree/Sheldon.  I was
somewhat mollifed by some clever footwork at the end which casts a
shadow on the usual happily-ever-after thriller ending...

T E D Klein was until recently the editor of TWILIGHT ZONE MAGAZINE,
and is the author of a superbly nasty horror novella called
'Children of the Kingdom'.  His first novel, THE CEREMONIES (Viking,
c1984, 505pp.), is a Gothic horror story about a young New Yorker
who decides to rent a room for the summer on a farm in the New
Jersey countryside, not realizing that he is being manipulated by a
mysterious Old One who is determined to destroy the world by
performing an elaborate Ceremony.  The man is a student of Gothic
horror, and of course a number of tributes are paid to past classics
over the course of the novel.  The writing is clear and
straightforward, the characterizations are nicely done, but... as is
the case with many other Gothics, the novel's plot unfolds at a
truly glacial pace.  After 500 pages, the climax just didn't seem to
make up for the detailed, patient, thorough build-up.  The comment
by Stephen King on the back of the jacket compares this book to
Straub's GHOST STORY, but I think King or Straub would have provided
a more suspenseful or theatrical ending and probably would have done
better at tying up loose ends.

Rudy Rucker's latest novel is MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME (Bluejay,
Nov.  1984, 229 pp.).  For those who've read Rucker's previous
stuff, such as THE SEX SPHERE or THE 57TH FRANZ KAFKA, you should
know that this is a 'Harry and Fletch' story as well as a sequel to
SPHERE.  The idea of the story is that there exists a device called
the 'blunzer', which uses free gluons to change the value of
Planck's constant in the region of the operator's head, turning the
operator into what amounts to God.  The idea allows to Rucker to
blast away at the structure of the universe, particularly in New
Jersey, which gets invaded by Godzilla (GWEEEEEEEEEEENT!), taken
over by large, slimy, parasitic brains, and infested by bizarre
plant life (pork chop bushes?).  The problem with MASTER is that the
notion is just too damn powerful -- if you can do anything, it
doesn't really matter what you do...  The 'rolling snowball'
approach to weirdness that works so well in SPHERE doesn't work at
all for MASTER.  Buy it in paperback.  (Another good reason to buy
it in paperback is the relatively poor production by Bluejay.  One
peeve of mine is the large point size used for the print; I read the
book from cover to cover in a little more than two hours, making me
wonder if the $14.95 price isn't covering a lot of extra paper...)

        'Although I couldn't share Harry's pleasure at the unearthly
        smells, this stretch of the Jersey Turnpike was one of my
        favorite places.  I was particularly fond of the refinery
        cracking towers, those great abstract totems of knotted pipe
        and wire.  And the big storage tanks, the code-painted
        conduits, the webs of scaffolding, the catwalks, the great
        pulsing gas flares -- all sheerly functional, yet charged
        with surreal meaning.  I felt like a cockroach in a
        pharmacy.'
                                        -- from MASTER

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey)
Subject: Name that story
Date: 22 May 85 06:37:28 GMT

I only have the vaguest recollection of this book, but I woulds
really like to reread it.  It takes place in the future, I believe,
after all the cities have been blown up and are highly radioactive.
It's about this woman, an outcast, that has this peculiar property
that entropy seems to reverse around her.  For example, she is
walking along a highway in the desert sun, and behind her, the
rusted metal of the guardrail turns gleaming.  She takes up (is born
with?)  this band of people living in the woods.  Later she takes up
with some guy that seems to have come control over entropy.  In the
climax, there is a confrontation between them and some kind of
authorities that lob an entropy grenade toward the guy, who catches
it, and somehow controls it with his will.

Well, there ya go...any ideas?

Sean Casey
Department of Mathematics
University of Kentucky
UUCP:   {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean
ARPA:   ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 May 85 18:32:51-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Yet more Rocky Horror info

For all UK readers of this digest/newsgroup, Channel 4 television
are showing the Rocky Horror Picture Show this Friday (31st May) at
11:30pm. I think this is its first national tv showing in the UK

                        Alan

------------------------------

Subject: Rocky Horror
Date: 28 May 85 19:13:44 EDT (Tue)
From: Robert Hunter <wolters@UDel-Dewey.ARPA>

>      I have also seen a printout of a copy of the script with the
> responses in it. I think it is online somewhere in this great
> computer network, but have no idea where... any comments,
> netlander?

        If anyone has access to such a script, I would be very
appreciative if they would send me a copy.

                        Bob Hunter <wolters@UDel-Dewey.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 85 10:59 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: In Offense To MOONRAKER

>From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
>Now, I am not a James Bond fan, but I've seen all the films but
>two, and to say that MOONRAKER is "perhaps the series' worst", as
>does Hank Shiffman, starts a little indignation flowing in me.

Only a little?  I must be losing my touch.  And why indignation?
Disagreement would not have surprised me, but indignation?  I
questioned the quality of a movie, not anyone's parentage.
>
>Yes, I enjoyed MOONRAKER, as the pulp-type adventure story it is.
>It certainly wasn't a spy thriller, but Bond films stopped being
>spy thrillers with FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE (attempting to return to
>the genre in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY).  Instead, MOONRAKER was a good
>"Bond film", however you want to define that.  Some of the scenes I
>enjoyed:
>
>- the hijacking of the shuttle
>- the opening parachuting sequence
>- the dobermans out to terminate a Drax Industries employee
>- the discovery and activation of the space station
>
>along with the cute references to SF films (the CE3K door chime,
>e.g.).

Yes, there were some nice visual images.  However, the quality of
the casting is pretty poor.  I found Lois Chiles to be lacking in
romantic appeal, and Michael Lonsdale as Drax was completely
nonthreatening.  For him to seem any more benign he would have
needed to be comatose.  Where are the Donovan Grants of yesteryear
(or even the Emilio Largos)?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 85 13:56 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007

>From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>>Not exactly.  Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert
>>Broccoli.  The rest of the films ignored the books because the
>>producer felt that it was SF hardware, lots of women, exotic
>>locations and car/boat/plane/...  chases which made money.
>
>My "facts" are based on hearsay and reading Variety.  I don't
>remember the source of my information.  I (gulp!) bow to your
>better knowledge, if it is better.  Where did you hear it?

007 James Bond: A Report by O.F. Snelling
The James Bond Dossier by Kingsley Amis (from before he wrote
    Colonel Sun)
James Bond In The Cinema by John Brosnan

Also a fair number of newspaper articles over the years and a couple
of television interviews with Broccoli.

------------------------------

Date: 28-May-85 17:00 PDT
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD  <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2>
Subject: BOND BEGINNING CREDITS

I would love to see the beginning credits to all the films again.  I
have always thought they were one of the high points of each Bond
film.  I must admit that the current (A VIEW TO A KILL) beginning
was not up to the quality of the earlier films.  They have done such
"neat" effects with projecting images on images and combining
shadows of characters on the film.  Oh well, maybe the next Bond
film will be better.

--Bi\\

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 85 15:01 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek III, "kilograms", etc.

What my ears heard (and, I believe, what the ST-III novelization
says) is "kilogaams" - something else entirely!  Seemed to
correspond roughly to kilometres, plus-or-minus a factor of two or
three.

Re Saavik not telling Kirk why Spock's body should not be "buried in
space" - the novelizations of both ST-II and -III (but neither
movie, I believe) went into much detail about Saavik's background.
She's not pure Vulcan, but is instead a Vulcan/Romulan hybrid,
abandoned on a failed Romulan colony planet and rescued by a search
party lead by Spock.  As she wasn't raised on Vulcan, it's not too
surprising that she'd be unfamiliar with the details of Vulcan
philosophy, mysticism, etc.

A pity that SF movies (and most movies in other genres, also) can't
include the same amount of information as the novel they're derived
from (or that is derived from them...) without being uncommercially
lengthy.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 85 1208-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #184
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 May 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 184

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Duane & Heinlein & Wyndham &
                   The Black Cauldron,
           Films - Star Trek III & 2001,
           Television - From Time to Timbuktu & V,
           Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ho95b!ran@topaz.arpa (RANeinast)
Subject: Re: MultivAC question (WRONGO!)
Date: 29 May 85 12:01:53 GMT

>       A while back, when all the discussion of Asimov's Multivac
>stories was taking place, I asked the burning question: 'What does
>the AC at the end of Multivac et. al. stand for?'.
>
>       I received 9 responses, of which 5 were correct. I guess
>that this shows that net-landers read the classics (or maybe we're
>just old).  The first correct answer came from Bob Carter
><carter@rutgers>, whose two-word reponse was 'Analogue Computer'.
>While I strongly suspect Asimov used the US spelling of 'analog',
>this is close enough and Bob may have his ten bonus points.  Check
>'The Last Question' in Nine Tommorows for this answer.
>
>       Incorrect responses centered around analogies to Univac:
>(UNIVersal Automatic Computer). This is a very easy error, and I
>suspect that The Good Doctor had Univac in mind when he wrote the
>story.  Other suggestions were Algorithmic Computer, Analytic(al)
>Calculator, and Asimov's Computer (or Asimov and Clarke (!)).

I'm afraid that YOU are wrong.  Asimov, in his autobiography ("In
Memory Yet Green", p663, large-size paperback), states the origin of
"Multivac".  He (erroneously) thought that Univac had one vacuum
tube (Uni-Vac), so a big, future machine would have many, many
vacuum tubes (Multi-Vac).  Therefore the AC at the end of Multivac
DOESN'T STAND FOR ANYTHING.

However, you are correct in that the AC at the end of Univac DOES
stand for Analog Computer.

Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran)
AT&T-Bell Labs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 85 17:52 EDT
From: Ben Yalow  <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Diane Duane

I showed copies of the recent discussion of "Door Into Shadow" to
Diane Duane.  She asked me to post the following info to clear up
some questions.  (The words are mine, the comments are hers).

The decision for Tor to reprint DIS before reprinting DIF was due to
a number of factors.  As was mentioned, part of it came from the
order that the books appeared from Bluejay.  Also, the people at Tor
felt that since there were already a large number of people who had
read DIF in the Dell (or British) editions, that it would be better
not to make them wait any longer for the sequel to appear in mass
market, so they reprinted DIS first.  They are reprinting DIF, as
well.

To slightly expand on A. Marina Fournier's comments on the timespan
between when DIF was written and when new Duane material started to
appear, the comment was "I got stuck for a while, then I got
unstuck.  In the meantime, I had to do something to eat."  It was
during that time period that she was working on various Saturday
morning cartoons.

A minor correction to the booklist is also required.  SO YOU WANT TO
BE A WIZARD was from Delacorte, not Atheneum.  The sequel, DEEP
WIZARDRY, is also out from Delacorte.  However, it has gotten fairly
poor distribution, so it may be hard to find (try bothering your
local bookstore - it's the only way to tell the publisher to do
something about the problem).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:16:07 EST
From: David A. Adler <DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: RAH's defense of Starship Troopers

I am not sure if this has been brought up with the recent discussion
of RAH's Starship Troopers, but he responds to much of the
criticisms of the story in EXPANDED UNIVERSE.

Apparently, after a group of local "communists" took out full page
ads in newspapers suggesting nuclear disarmament in 1958 RAH got
very patriotic. He was shoked by President Eisenhower's decision to
cancel nuclear testing. As a result RAH put down the manuscript for
THE HERETIC (later STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND) and wrote Starship
Troopers. Even RAH wrote "I still can't see how that book got a
Hugo."

RAH rebuts that the criticisms of the book are usually based on a
failure to understand English, including:

- "'Veteran' does not mean in English dictionaries or in this novel
  solely a person who has served in military forces. I concede that
  in commonest usage today it means a war veteran... but no one
  hesitates to speak of a veteran fireman or veteran school teacher.
  In STARSHIP TROOPERS it is stated flatly and more than once that
  nineteen out of twenty veterans are NOT military veterans.
  Instead, 95% of voters are what we call today 'former members of
  federal civil service.'"

- "He/she can resign at any time other than during combat, i.e.,
  100% of the time for 19 out of 20; 99%+ of the time for those in
  the military branches of federal service."

- "There is NO conscription (I am opposed to conscription for any
  reason at any time, war or peace, and have said so frequently...)."

- [Criticism: The government in ST is militaristic] "'Militaristic'
  is the adjective for the noun 'militarism,' a word of several
  definitions but not one of them can be correctly applied to the
  government described in this novel. No military or civil servant
  can vote or hold office until after he is discharged and is again
  a civilian. The military tend to be dispised by most civilians and
  this is made explicit. A career military man is most unlikely ever
  to vote or hold office; he is more likely to be dead -- and if he
  does live through it, he'll vote for the first time at 40 or
  older."

- [Criticism: That book glorifies the military] "It does indeed.
  Specifically the P.B.I., the Poor Bloody Infantry, the mudfoot who
  places his frail body between his loved home and the war's
  desolation -- but is rarely appreciated...."

RAH's essay seem to answer many of the points that were brought up
in the past couple weeks. The essay is quite interesting and can be
found on pages 396-402 of the Ace paperback edition. RAH's response
to the initial newspaper ads, "Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry?
Stand up and be Counted," is also interesting. RAH said that "The
'Patick Henry' ad [that RAH took out in response] shocked 'em; ST
outraged 'em."

Sorry if this information has already been pointed out, but I
thought it seemed to be relevant.

DAdler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1985 11:17:27-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Old Triffids paperback....

A little question:

While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local
library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of
Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might it
be the first PB edition of that novel?

This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the
Triffids," but with the original title in small print in parentheses
on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy, with a triffid
menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse only slightly
concealed her torso.

It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other copyrights
found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by Crowell-Collier
Publishing Co. Also on the copyright page was the note, "Originally
published under the title 'The Day of the Triffids.'"

Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his
genius.
                                    Regards (& advance thanks),
                                           Jeff Rogers
                                           jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 06:29:55 PDT
From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: SF/Fantasy Movie Releases -- Black Cauldron

ginsburg@ozone.DEC writes (roughly)
...The Black Cauldron....but the title sounds promising.

     Sounds promising?  Don't you recognize it?  You mean you've
never read Lloyd Alexander?  One of the nicest, er, maybe I should
say enjoyable fantasy worlds I've ever read (no flames please, only
my opinion)?  Actually, these books are not good fantasy in the
sense of being a cohesive world with well-designed laws which
everything works by.  There are too many things and beings which are
unique unto themselves.  But nonetheless a good read if you can read
for the adventure instead of finding flaws.  Note that they are
apparently aimed at children and hence the endings tend towards a
sort of lecturing on the truths of life.  But for the most part they
are okay.  If you haven't read these I recommend them.  Someone must
think they are good; the last one of the five won the Newberry Award
(not the same prestige as the Hugo perhaps, but still...)

The Book of Three
The Black Cauldron
The Castle of Llyr
Taran Wanderer
The High King
                                der Mouse
                {ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 May 1985 07:10:28-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Star Trek III

>From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
>As for Saavik not telling Kirk, perhaps only male Vulcans know it?
>This is hardly the most serious inconsistency in the story.  For
>example, when Kirk shouts the Klingon equivalent of "Beam me up,
>Scotty", how is the Klingon transporter operator supposed to know
>that he is to pick up both Kirk and Spock II?  And just how did
>Kirk's people overpower the Klingons on board with no weapons?
>Also, wouldn't you be a bit nervous taking a Klingon ship right
>into Federation territory and landing it (!!!) on Vulcan?

I'll take them in order.

1. Immediately after yelling to be beamed up, Kirk grabbed Spock II,
   who was unconscious, and took him for the ride.

2. They didn't.  There was only the one remaining Klingon on board
   the Bird of Prey.  The others had either been killed in the
   destruction of the Enterprise or on the planet.  Kirk simply
   appeared on the bridge weapon in hand.

3. Hmmm.  A little tricky.  Possibly they did most of their
   traveling cloaked (very energy expensive), or maybe there is a
   special code that can be transmitted saying 'this is a captured
   ship - let me come home!'.

Brendan E. Boelke

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 May 1985 05:15:52-PDT
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Randy Dearborn, Principal
From: Graphic Designer, DTN 264-5090)
Subject: 2001 intermission

When the film was originally released, it had an intermission.  It
was placed right after the scene where HAL reads the astronauts'
lips.  By putting the intermission back in during current showings,
they are duplicating the way it was originally intended to be shown.

Randy Dearborn
DEC
Merrimack, NH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 85 15:00:25 EDT
From: david@harvard.ARPA (David Kurlander)
Subject: Obscure PBS SF: From Time to Timbuktu

Between Time and Timbuktu was a mix of several of Kurt Vonnegut's
short stories.  After winning some sort of contest, the hero wins a
ride on a rocket.  He travels through a chrono-simplastic
infindibulum, and finds himself unstuck in time and space, rather
like Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five.  From this point on he
uncontrollably floats in and out of several of Vonnegut's short
stories.  Bob and Ray play the two reporters covering the space
shot.

I'm not sure how frequently PBS rebroadcasts this -- you may want to
write them a letter and ask.  Incidentally, Georgetown University
has this in their videotape library, so if you're ever in the
vicinity of Washington, DC...

                                        David Kurlander

------------------------------

Date: Tue 28 May 85 13:02:31-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: V is in ...

as a costume basis at conventions and masquerades. Oh well. At least
it's not as bad as when Star Wars first came out and everyone was
waving those silly plastic tube light sabers....

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II
Date: 22 May 85 13:25:20 GMT

> science fiction be like if instead, the examples for new writers
> were Aldiss, Ballard, and Silverberg?

Early Silverberg, yuck!

> All that you will see when you wander through the science fiction
> section of your local bookstore is new authors who are rarely more
> than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or Gordon
> Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme.  Where is a new Thomas Disch?
> Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin? For too
> long science fiction has built on such a narrow pedestal, and now
> this trash-heap is threatening to fall over on us.  Barry B.
> Longyear, Brian Daley, Christopher Stasheff, Jerry Pournelle,
> Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Spider Robinson, Joe Haldeman,
> Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The
> fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership
> that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored
> toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it. A readership
> that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that wants a
> novel out of every short story, a readership that has grown fat
> and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons.  It's
> science fiction's doom as a viable 20th Century art form if its
> readership continues to wallow in mediocrity, merely competent
> writing, and glorification of hacks. Notice that "mainstream"
> authors who have written science fiction for the general reading
> public have by and large maintained a higher standard of craft
> than is present in current new offerings within science fictions.
> "Duluth" by Gore Vidal. The "Canopus In Argus" series by Doris
> Lessing. A few others here and there, not many, because it's the
> kiss of death for a mainstream author to become associated with
> writing science fiction.

Sorry for the rather large excerpt.

Crap!, I read books because I enjoy them not because they are
masterworks of art.  The cardinal sin for a book, any kind of book,
on my reading list is for it to be boooriiiiiiing.  A fantastically
well crafted and written book that is boring is guaranteed a
non-stop one-way trip to the circular file whereas I have very much
enjoyed and will no doubt continue to enjoy some "hack" novels
simply because they were fun (the first couple Xanth books then it
got old, real old) or action packed or funny or ...  you get the
idea.  Art for the sophisticate always gets short shrift in the mass
market, and to my lights rightly so.  You can take classic jazz
(random notes), modern art (random scribbles), and "well written"
sci fi (random but well structured phrases, translate boring) and
stuff them for all that I would miss them.  I read a great deal of
science fiction and am willing to try practically any author but, I
don't evaluate a book on how well they are written (someone else's
subjective evaluation) but rather how well they read (a personal
subjective evaluation).  I don't feel any need to apologize or
change my taste in literature just because of someone else's likes
and dislikes, I like what I like and feel perfectly comfortable with
that.

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 May 85 1221-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #185
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 May 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 185

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Computers in SF &
                            The Problems of SF Today (3 msgs) &
                            Empiricon 6

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 24 May 85 22:36:24-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #176

>  (why the sudden rash of _people_underlining_book_titles_?)
>         One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly
>reputable SF writers including their computers in a novel.  There
>is some of this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a
>better example.  I have an image of these guys being given a
>Trash-80 for their birthday and after a month or so the illness
>strikes.  Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a
>computer whiz especially when the writer has only a superficial
>background to go on.

True in general -- Varley's _Press_Enter_[] and a few others come to
mind instantly.  But Zelazny's done it before: Jack of Shadows, (-8
in the book of the same name, _underlined_ 8-) was a professor of
computer science in his lightside incarnation, good enough to print
the Key That Was Lost (-8 presumably due to a glitch in a sorting
algorithm 8-) without anyone realizing that he was taking up masses
of computer time (?).  Jack of Shadows is at least ten years old,
and probably older.  No Trash-80's around then.  (O.K., Jack used
batch.)

To say nothing of (Zelazny+Saberhagan)'s _Coils_ -- and saying
nothing of it is probably a good idea.

The Immoral Bard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 85 15:29 EDT
From: Winston B. Edmond <wbe@bbn-vax.ARPA>
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II

Davis Tucker,

   I have to assume the purpose of these essays of yours is to
incite debate -- that the positions taken are intended to be
controversial so those of us that are usually quiet will take the
effort to write.  As such, it doesn't matter whether you really
believe what you wrote or if you are just challenging us.  If the
latter, you've succeeded, at least with me.

   I can agree with a number of the details, but I disagree with the
intent, tone, and innuendo in your comments.  You say:

>But incredibly, many science fiction writers get away with cheap
>puns, absolutely wretched dialogue, ridiculously constructed plots,
>inconsistent character motivation, terminal cuteness (Gidget's
>Disease), and worst of all the "And-Then-He-Woke-Up" ending, or
>some kind of deus ex machina ending (sometimes both together).

   "Get away with" ??  This implies deception, doing something
harmful or unethical without penalty or discovery, being sneaky.
You seem to imply that writers are somehow "putting one over" on the
poor, gullible readers and publishers.  Perhaps you think they have
no choice but to accept whatever the writer wants them to?  I think
readers can judge for themselves, and groups like SF-Lovers assist
in evaluating books.  Unless you're just asserting that you feel you
were deceived, I find no merit in your "get away with".

   Later, you write:

>The fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership
>that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored
>toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it.

   If you don't like what some other reader likes, that's okay, but
please don't denigrate the field or the readers simply because their
taste differs.  Your basic argument is the economic one known as
consumer surplus: if N people want something, it's easier and
cheaper for the N+1'st person to get the same thing.  However, if
you want something unique or not commonly available, it's harder to
get, more expensive, etc.  What you've basically said is that if
only other readers would demand the same type of literature that you
want, you think everybody would be better off.

   Not everyone who has a new or interesting idea or view of the
world is a perfect writer.  Not all entertainers can do stand up
comedy well.  Sure, I like well written books with good
characterization, a sensible story, and a wealth of imaginative
ideas written into a story crafted so well that I delight in its
reading.  But I'll settle for a good book, with errors, that has
*something* in it that's good enough to make up for what it lacks.

   There's a great deal of science fiction I never read because it
seemed to me to be yet-another-<whatever> story.  (It also leaves
time for reading other things.)  From your comments, perhaps you've
come to the same conclusion, and will express your interests by
buying only books you have reason to believe you will like.

   You wrote:

>A readership that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that
>wants a novel out of every short story, a readership that has grown
>fat and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons.

   Gee, I've had the impression that it was more the publishers that
decided that if something sold well once, the market should be
saturated with more stuff superficially like it.  On the other hand,
isn't it a fairly common reaction, upon finding something you really
enjoyed, to wish there had been more of it, or that it could happen
again?  It's hard to blame a publisher for trying to find some way
to fulfill the reader's desires, especially if those readers are
prepared to spend real money.

   Finally,

>All that you will see when you wander through the science fiction
>section of your local bookstore is new authors who are rarely more
>than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or Gordon
>Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme.  Where is a new Thomas Disch?
>Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin?

   Do you think these people just appeared in a puff of orange
smoke, with their abilities so blindingly obvious that publishers
would bow down and decide they were the only kind of people worth
publishing?  There are a lot of talented people whose work isn't
appreciated and which loses money.  Publishers (and writers) don't
like losing money.

   Which is better -- to publish works that are great along with
works that are not so great, or try to publish only the best?  And
who's to decide that the work is worth publishing?  How do you
propose to discover new talent, to provide the marketplace to
support the time and effort it takes to do great works if you insist
that a book must be great before it is available to the public?

   Unless the publishers suddenly develop a new restraint on what
they publish, or writers decide that they won't write anything less
than masterpieces or stop writing what publishers insist will make
them both money, I suspect you'll see works that aren't wonderful
along with those you think are.

   I have no objection to discovering new, better writers.  I agree
that there's just enough good ones around to make me wish there were
more.  If we can find a way, or a set of suggestions, that can be
easily adopted by ordinary writers that enables them to be better
writers, that's wonderful.  But -- please don't tell me not to read
a book with a good idea just because it isn't presented as well as
it could be.  And, if you truly believe that 90% rule you quoted,
you should do everything in your power to increase the size of the
market.  The 90% portion will be larger, but so will the 10%
portion.

 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 85 08:53 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: THE PROBLEMS IN SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II -- A REPLY

> What do we mean when we use the word "hack" in reference to an
> author? This is often a very fuzzy phrase, and everyone has a
> different definition. Mine is "an author who is merely competent,
> and who does not attemt to improve."  Stasis is death, at least in
> the creative world.  Competency is a compliment to mechanics,
> journalists, and airline pilots.  It is a veiled insult (or a
> left-handed compliment) to any creative person.  To say that
> someone is a "competent painter" means nothing.  To be merely
> competent is to never rise above a given level.  In science
> fiction, competency an mediocrity go hand in glove, dancing
> merrily into justifiable oblivion.

Wow. Nice finish to the paragraph. Leaves one with the impression
that *only* in the field of science fiction will one find a large
number of authors who fit your definition of hack and sell large
numbers of books. When did you last look at any section of your
local bookstore other than science fiction?  For every Gore Vidal
(one of two current mainstream authors mentioned in the original)
there are *at least* ten, probably twenty, hacks. Science fiction is
not, nor ever will be, the last refuge of the hack. Consider, for
instance, John Jakes. He *left* science fiction for the more
lucrative mainstream field. He's made quite a bit of money out there
and I'm sure he would fit your definition of a hack writer. Hacks
exist in every field. Many of them are quite successful. Barbara
Cartland can be nothing but a hack writer, but she's a *very*
successful one and I don't recall ever seeing any science fiction by
her. Television isn't spared either. For every episode of Star Trek
there are at least two of the Dukes of Hazzard. Your arguements just
don't hold together unless you ignore 90% or mainstream fiction.
Sturgeon's corolary to Murphy's Law holds for *all* fields, not just
science fiction as you imply.

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I
Date: 25 May 85 18:58:50 GMT

Davis Tucker raises some interesting points in his well-written
essay on quality and contemporary SF.

> Unfortunately, this degradatation of critical faculties is
> unavoidable, just by human nature, and it takes a very strong
> sense of self to keep it in check. The above statement puts it
> very succinctly - and is a very good example of what is so often
> wrong with science fiction fandom and its rationale for giving
> accolades or insults.

It's precisely SF fandom's insularity that has led to the slow
acceptance of SF as a 'respectable' genre by people outside the SF
community. Cults of personality lead to the overemphasis of the
mediocre and the neglect of the superior. Was it Arthur C. Clarke or
someone else who said that 90% of EVERYTHING is garbage? It's time
that the myth of SF's persecution by mainstream critics be laid to
rest. The quality of writing in the average SF mag is uneven because
most SF is written for a fifteen-year-old mentality by hacks who
wouldn't know quality writing if it jumped up and bit them in their
warp drives. Most people who care about fiction as art don't have
the patience to wade through five tons of horse manure in search of
a single gem (what, me opinionated? :-).

> ... Alcoholism and drug abuse seem to be the congenital defects of
> writers, coupled with a large streak of self-destructiveness.
> Now, it's true that there are many likeable people who could fit
> into this company. But the point is that someone's congeniality is
> not his or her writing. It just flat out has no bearing whatsoever
> on the quality of his or her prose.

Neither does a person's good sense when it comes to issues outside
the field of writing. Consider, for example, Ezra Pound's
infatuation with fascism which in no way diminishes his stature as a
20th century poet.  As an aside, I wonder if the self-destructiveness
 isn't a byproduct of our romanticization of the creative act. I
seem to recall reading that this redefinition of the artist's role
in society is our inheritance from the likes of Blake, Shelley,
Coleridge et al., and that writers before Romanticism reared its
ugly head tended to be ordinary Joes with a family and payments on a
Chevy in the garage :-).

> So I should, by the above quoted argument, attempt to reach a
> deeper appreciation of Rockwell's work due to my personal fondness
> for him. In other words, if I like him so much as a person, I
> certainly would like his work.

A cautionary note here: the work of a Norman Rockwell may be
interesting from a sociological or historical perspective, hence
worth studying for reasons that have little to do with its artistic
merit.  The writings of the worst SF hack may be worth looking at if
they have influenced the evolution of the genre in some way. I've
sometimes read books I've detested or listened to music that bored
me because I felt there was a lesson to be learned from the
experience, even if it was a negative one. You can sometimes learn a
lot about quality by studying those things that lack quality.

> Isaac Asimov, from everything I've heard, is a gentleman -
> well-mannered, considerate, helpful to young authors, interested
> in new talent. Some of his work possesses merit - his non-fiction.
> We'll forget about his poetry ...

An interesting phenomenon, SF poetry. Why people who are more or
less competent crafters of fiction think that their skills
automatically carry over into poetry is beyond me. I've NEVER seen
an SF poem that was more than marginally competent or revealed an
understanding of the nature of poetry beyond the high-school
creative writing class level.  Yet mags like Amazing persist in
publishing one or more of these embarassing efforts in each issue.
Even Gene Wolfe (who, I believe, should know better) stoops to
writing bad poetry. There's probably a book or article in here
somewhere, if anyone cares to write it.

> indeed!). His fiction is not that good - yes, it shows some
> marginal crafts- manship, some workable ideas, but it's not really
> that good, as fiction.

Ah, yes, the marginal Dr. Asimov. I dearly love The Magazine of
Fantasy and Science Fiction, but his interminable lectures on stale
science are getting a bit old. How many years has he been at this?
If you want to see real 'marginal craftsmanship,' check out his
useless book of advice on writing SF. What a rip-off.

> But nothing he has written even comes close to Gene Wolfe. This
> isn't mere opinion - I don't truck with the idea of absolute
> relativism in art.  It is probably an overstatement, but Asimov is
> to Wolfe as Rockwell is to Van Gogh.

Again, I think even a second-rate craftsman like Asimov is worth
reading. He has had an influence on the direction SF has taken the
past 30 years or so, after all. And as for Gene Wolfe, I think his
Fifth Head of Cerberus is one of the great achievements in the
genre.

> If science fiction were not a field of literary endeavor (and who
> knows? Sometimes it really does seem to be something totally
> different), none of this would matter. But it is, and it is
> incumbent upon readers of science fiction to remember this, and
> judge accordingly, and not allow personalities to affect that
> judgement.

I'm afraid there's going to be a flood of irate responses to your
posting, because many SF fans would disagree with you. They don't
want any surprises in their fiction, and they view the reading of SF
as one aspect of their fandom. I've been reading SF since the early
'50s, when I used to cadge my grandmother's copies of Worlds of If
(believe it or not). If it weren't for the writers who still believe
SF is a field of literary endeavor, I'd quit reading it tomorrow.

                       -- In the name of quality, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 85 15:25 EDT
From: Ben Yalow  <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Empiricon 6

Empiricon 6, orginally scheduled for the Fourth of July weekend
(July 5-7, 1985), has been cancelled.  The convention was to be held
at the Sheraton LaGuardia in New York City.  The announcement was
made at Disclave this past weekend.

For further information, contact Empiricon.  Their address is
  Empiricon/ PO Box 682/ NY,NY 10008

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 85 2002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #186
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 31 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 186

Today's Topics:

        Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today (3 msgs) &
                        Criticizing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II
Date: 25 May 85 20:17:22 GMT

A few additional comments. By the way, Steve Brust is right on the
mark; Capote (RIP) and Mailer ARE miserable hacks...

> To be merely competent is to never rise above a given level. In
> science fiction, competency and mediocrity go hand in glove,
> dancing merrily into justifiable oblivion.

Well ... I think this is probably true of fiction in general. Take a
look at what passes for 'fiction' in many literary quarterlies and
little magazines, for example. The difference may be that mainstream
writers have an outlet for the fiction they write while they're
learning their craft (i.e., the little mags), but new, old, good and
bad SF writers all publish in the same small set of magazines. And
if you want to see REAL mediocrity, take a look at ten or fifteen of
the current top-40 mainstream bestsellers at your friendly
neighborhood bookstore. Sidney Sheldon, indeed ... I think we need
to keep on criticizing SF to keep the juices flowing, but we need to
make sure we stay on target. I'm not sure your criticism here can't
be levelled at the 90% of ALL fiction that's mediocre ...

> We all have heard the lame excuse that science fiction has
> different rules than mainstream fiction until it sounds like a
> broken record.
>   But the basic fundamentals of mainstream fiction still apply -
> realistic characaterization, depth of understanding, plot
> development, correct use of descriptive passages, realistic
> dialogue, structural integrity, everything that is important to
> literature.
>   But incredibly, many science fiction writers get away with cheap
> puns, absolutely wretched dialogue, ridiclously constructed plots,
> inconsistent character motivation, terminal cuteness (Gidget's
> Disease) and worst of all the "And-Then-He-Woke-Up" ending, or
> some kind of deus ex machina ending (sometimes both together).

I think this all goes back to the SF-as-pariah syndrome I mentioned
in my reply to part I of your posting; poor, poor SF has always been
picked on by the mainstream critics because they simply don't
understand that SF writers are capable of producing quality fiction.
This simply doesn't work anymore. In the late '60s, many mainstream
critics began examining SF as serious fiction. The late Theodore
Sturgeon, as I recall, was one of the first hailed as a quality
writer by the non-SF critics. Since then, countless MA theses and
PhD dissertations have been written on SF works. Writers like
Delaney, LeGuin, Wilhelm, Wolfe, and Lem are acknowledged by
mainstream critics as well as SF critics. A conspiracy against SF?
Hardly.

Yet some SF writers and fans seem to have decided that the trappings
of mainstream literary criticism don't apply to SF; consequently,
we've seen claims by members in the SF community that the only
important or good fiction being produced is SF, or that only SF
writers are still producing solid stories, or that the novel is
dying everywhere but in the SF genre (I've actually seen all these
claims in one place or another over the last 15 years or so, but I
can't quote my sources, unfortunately). By isolating the genre from
the rest of literature, some members of the SF community would place
it in a position where the standards applied to 'ordinary' fiction
no longer apply to SF. Thus, some 'purists' seem to believe that
idea is everything, and that well-crafted characters and believable
dialogue are unnecessary or secondary to the conceptual goals of the
story. Much of this fiction reads like socialist realism, another
genre where function takes precedence over form.

> It's a shame, but science fiction, unlike almost any other
> creative field, has almost no true masters that are recognized as
> such, no people who are held up by the aficionados as examples to
> young acolytes. Instead, the old hacks are deified and glorified.
> Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke. What would science fiction be like
> if instead, the examples for new writers were Aldiss, Ballard, and
> Silverberg?
>   All that you will see when you wander through the science
> fiction section of your local bookstore is new authors who are
> rarely more than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or
> Gordon Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme.  Where is a new Thomas
> Disch? Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin?

I see a number of newer writers out there who seem to be heading in
interesting directions. For example, Ed Bryant, Greg Bear, Ian
Watson, Lucius Shepard. The deification and glorification seems to
be going on at the conventions and in the fan magazines, but there
are at least some of us who have followed SF closely for a number of
years and who have no interest in getting involved in the fandom
nonsense. A writer is his own best and severest critic; if he wants
to be a GOOD writer (as opposed to a hack), he'll approach his
reading of SF critically and eventually realize that Aldiss,
Ballard, and Silverberg have more to teach him about writing than
Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke.

> A readership that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that
> wants a novel out of every short story, a readership that has
> grown fat and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons.

A readership that demands an endless stream of mediocre trilogies
and tetralogies. Let's face it, this junk SELLS and an author who
has a family to feed may be sorely tempted to crank out a quick
trilogy instead of a finely crafted 100 page novel or novella

> Notice that "mainstream" authors who have written science fiction
> for the general reading public have by and large maintained a
> higher standard of craft than is present in current new offerings
> within science fictions. "Duluth" by Gore Vidal. The "Canopus In
> Argus" series by Doris Lessing. A few others here and there, not
> many, because it's the kiss of death for a mainstream author to
> become associated with writing science fiction.

I'm not so sure about the 'kiss of death' theory; see my above
comments about mainstream critics and SF. The interested reader will
also want to check out Stanislaw Lem's works (of course), and Italo
Calvino. A book I'm starting soon is the newly-published mainstream
novel The Eleven-Million Mile High Dancer, but it looks like it may
be a bit too stylized and trendy for my taste (I'll post a review).
And there's Don DeLillo's Ratner's Star, Vladimir Nabokov's Ada, and
The Waltz Invention, and so on. Of course, much of this fiction
barely qualifies as SF, but SF has had a great impact on many
so-called mainstream writers.

                                 -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II
Date: 25 May 85 20:32:58 GMT

> Crap!, I read books because I enjoy them not because they are
> masterworks of art.  The cardinal sin for a book, any kind of
> book, on my reading list is for it to be boooriiiiiiing.
>   Art for the sophisticate always gets short shrift in the mass
> market, and to my lights rightly so.  You can take classic jazz
> (random notes), modern art (random scribbles), and "well written"
> sci fi (random but well structured phrases, translate boring) and
> stuff them for all that I would miss them.  ...

So, Dave, you're the canonical SF fan? There's plenty of 'lite'
reading out there for people who are looking for something to shade
their noses while they get a suntan; why should you resent those of
us who are looking for something more? I could care less what you
think of 'art for the sophisticate;' there are those of us who get
the greatest enjoyment out of listening to classic jazz, looking at
modern art, and reading well-written SF (oh, and by the way, the
term 'sci fi' is an abomination).

This interchange is addressing SF on one level; you obviously read
it on another. If you don't like what we're saying, use your 'n'
key.
                          -- Hugs & kisses, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: randvax!rohn@topaz.arpa (Laurinda Rohn)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II
Date: 23 May 85 01:57:41 GMT

> It's a shame, but science fiction, unlike almost any other
> creative field, has almost no true masters that are recognized as
> such, no people who are held up by the aficionados as examples to
> young acolytes.

Hmm.  Masters in whose judgment?  Good art is a very subjective
thing.  Your master might be my hack.  And just because I think
Joyce is a master doesn't mean that I can't enjoy reading some
Asimov now and then.  And whether Asimov is a master in your
judgment or in mine, I suspect he is someone whom many young authors
try to emulate.

> Instead, the old hacks are deified and glorified. Asimov,
> Heinlein, and Clarke. What would science fiction be like if
> instead, the examples for new writers were Aldiss, Ballard, and
> Silverberg?

Personally, I think it would be boring.  Now this isn't to say that
I don't care for the three you mentioned, but if all new fiction
were to be patterned after just a few "masters", I think I'd go out
of my mind (further :-) ).  I happen to think variety in styles is a
Good Thing.

> and now this trash-heap is threatening to fall over on us.  Barry
> B. Longyear, Brian Daley, Christopher Stasheff, Jerry Pournelle,
> Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Spider Robinson, Joe Haldeman,
> Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The
> fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership
> that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored
> toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it.  So let's not
> wallow in the 90 percent, let's get our heads out of the toilet
> and go look for the 10 percent that's worth reading.
>   Possibly it's because in the eyes of the reading public, that
> descending to write science fiction is exactly that - descending.
> Being lowered. Jumping in the muck with all the Trekkies.  Bug
> Eyed Monsters. All of the hackneyed, overused, cliched constructs
> that science fiction has been relying on for much too long, rather
> than finding something new.

I must disagree.  I don't consider it a fault to enjoy reading the
"same old crap."  Again, good literature is in the opinion of the
reader.  I consider the sonnet an overused construct.  Does that
mean Shakespeare shouldn't have written so many?  I don't think so.
There's nothing wrong with finding something new.  But if you've
found something you like, there's also nothing wrong with sticking
with it as well.

> In some ways, the general reading public has a clearer view of
> what science fiction is and what it isn't than those who have been
> reading it all their lives. The forest for the trees.

You mean the general reading public that has made Harlequin Romances
some of the best selling books around???  I'm not sure I'm willing
to trust their opinion of what is and isn't good science fiction....

                                        Lauri
                                        rohn@rand-unix.ARPA
                                        ..decvax!randvax!rohn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 06:30:51 PDT
From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der
From: Mouse)
Subject: SF and criticizing

     Sorry Davis (druri!dht in #175), I finally have to respond.
There are a few things I take issue with in that.

     I think I agree with your definition of a hack, as you worded
it.  Trouble is, I will argue with your usage of competent.
Competency, used in reference to a creative person (such as a
painter or writer) could very well be a compliment---of their
technique, as opposed to their imagination.  Granted, both are
indeed needed.

>  or that "Where The Wild Things Are" and the Dr.  Seuss books show
>more imagination and extrapolation than Star Trek.

     I must argue with you here.  Not only because you touch a nerve
when you denigrate Star Trek, but I think there's another aspect to
this.  Seuss and WTWTA are both *fantasy*, and children's fantasy at
that (children's fantasy can get away with a lot more).  More
imagination, perhaps (though some of the ST episodes get pretty
imaginative).  Extrapolation, though, is what SF is all about, and
given the restrictions (don't forget *when* it was made!), Star Trek
did awfully well (I'm not talking about the movies here; you have a
point there).

>But it is hard to believe that Robert Heinlein *ever* kept his
>overbearing personality out of the mouths of every character.
>"Time Enough For Love" was a nightmare - Robert A. Heinlein living
>forever, and worse, *talking* forever.

     Several things here.  One, so what if Heinlein wants to write
the way you say?  Nobody's making you read his stuff.  Two, I
disagree.  Read `The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'.  Manuel
O'Kelly-Davis certainly doesn't strike me as the average Heinlein
Competent Man.  (Personally, I liked TEFL.  Not sure why.)

>...science fiction....has almost no true masters that are....held
>up by the aficionados as examples to young acolytes.  Instead, the
>old hacks are deified and glorified.

     You've nearly contradicted yourself.  Remember, not everybody
agrees with your opinion that those who are `deified and glorified'
are `old hacks' instead of `true masters'---indeed, there are plenty
of people who disagree.  Me, for example.  Well, they *were* masters
when they were in their prime.

>[old hacks are deified and glorified.] Asimov, Heinlein, and
>Clarke.  ....if instead, the examples....were Aldiss, Ballard, and
>Silverberg.

     All three (Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke) have written good
stuff (try early output in all three cases, done before they could
sell on their names alone instead of selling on the story).  Not
that I want to slam any of the other three; indeed, I haven't read
enough work I can recall to be by any of them to be able to offer an
opinion.

>....new authors who are rarely more than warmed-over [your favorite
>past author here].  ....  ....Christopher Stasheff, ...., Spider
>Robinson, ...., Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey....

     All the authors I left in the above passage I happen to like
(or at least, like some of their stuff).  On the other hand, perhaps
you're right.  Surely you don't call Darkover or Pern `real'
SF---which is all you claim to be talking about.  They are more
fantasy.  Stasheff I don't know.  Had someone already done a
Gramarye?  It's the first time I'd met such an idea.  Spider
Robinson I like for Callahan's [Two books: Callahan's Crosstime
Saloon and Time Travelers Strictly Cash].  (This is probably because
of my weak spot for puns).
                                der Mouse
                {ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse

PS.  Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between "comics" and
"comix"?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 85 2046-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #187
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 31 May 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 187

Today's Topics:

                  Art - Trumps of Doom Cover Art,
                  Books - Wyndham (3 msgs) & Zelazny &
                        Upcoming Releases (2 msgs),
                  Films - Lensman (2 msgs) & 2001/2010 (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 29 May 85 12:12:36-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Trumps of Doom Cover

Well, the cover was so BAD, I couldn't imagine Whelan really caring
that much. Have you noticed that Zelazny often gets stuck with
really bad covers? The only ones I liked were those AVON editions,
and those didn't have much art to them, just the little ovals in the
middles of the black fields.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 1985 10:23:41-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: "Triffids" paperback....

A little question:

While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local
library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of
Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might it
be the first PB edition of that novel?

This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the
Triffids," but with the original title in small print in parentheses
on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy, with a triffid
menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse only slightly
concealed her torso.

It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other copyrights
found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by Crowell-Collier
Publishing Co. Also on the copyright page was the note, "Originally
published under the title 'The Day of the Triffids.'"

Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his
genius.
                                    Regards (& advance thanks),
                                           Jeff Rogers
                                           jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Old Triffids paperback....
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
Date: 30 May 85 01:07:43 PDT (Thu)

>A little question:
>
>While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local
>library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of
>Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might
>it be the first PB edition of that novel?
>
>This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the
>Triffids," but with the original title in small print in
>parentheses on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy,
>with a triffid menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse
>only slightly concealed her torso.

>Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his
>genius.
>                                              Jeff Rogers

I can't rival Jerry Boyajian, and wouldn't even try, but I do know
this much:

"Day of the Triffids" came out a long time ago (decades) in
paperback, from Penguin books, which, for copyright reasons that I
don't fully understand, are not available in the US -- at least,
that's what the note on the back cover always says, following the
list of suggested prices for the book in the various dominions.
Penguin, among others, published most or all of Wyndham's work.

About the cover illustration you describe: how nauseating.  I assure
you there was nothing like that on the Penguin release.  And the
book was given its right name (though there's nothing new in
Wyndham's titles' being revised en route over the Atlantic).  The
story is very good, and has nothing to do with frightened, barely
dressed women.  See other articles on this list for various
observations about cover art.

   Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Old Triffids paperback....
Date: 30 May 85 05:58:14 GMT

> While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local
> library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of
> Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might
> it be the first PB edition of that novel?
>
> This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the
> Triffids,"
>
> It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other
> copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by
> Crowell-Collier Publishing Co.

        Gad, that's precious little to go on. As far as my info
tells me, "Revolt of the Triffids" is the title of the first
american paper back of "Triffids", however that doesn't guarantee
you anything. The original price on the book should have been '.25',
if so you have the first printing of that title. I do not know if
there was a british printing that might have predated it.

                        Joe Kalash
                        kalash@berkeley
                        ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 85 16:26:30 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Nitpicking again...Jack of Shadows

     I have recently (coincidentally) reread Jack of Shadows, and I
must correct a mistake that someone recently made when writing about
it.  Unfortunately, I wasn't brilliant enough to write down the name
of the person who made the mistake, so I can't address this
properly.

     When Jack went Dayside, he was *not* a Professor of Computer
Science.  He was a professor of *Anthropology* and other similar
social sciences. He gave lectures on Darkside culture and customs,
and was roundly believed to be making most of it up from whole
cloth. He was using the computer ostensibly to aid his research. No
one noticed how much time he used cause most of it was originally
"signed up for" by other people, and when they cancelled out he
would bounce right in and grab the time. It took his boss something
on the order of 3-5 years to figure out that Jack might be a
darksider, and which one he could be.

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Wed 29 May 85 18:44:25-PDT
From: randall neff <N.NEFF@[36.48.0.5]>
Subject: ABA report I

This is the first report on the American Booksellers Convention that
was held in San Francisco on Memorial Day weekend.

New American Library/ Signet/ DAW

The Backman Books  by Stephen King  October, trade paperback
   The four previous Richard Bachman novels

Angel with the Sword  by C. J. Cherryh  the first DAW hardcover.
   September.  Cherryh was at the ABA autographing bound galleys
   of the book,  will review later after I read it.

Tailchaser's Song   by Tad Williams   November "a magical picaresque
   story sure to appeal to devotees of quality fantasy as well as to
   the millions of cat lovers nationwide"

July
   Null-A Three A. E. van Vogt
   The Song of Homana (Cheysuli book 2)  Jennifer Roberson
   I.A. presents Great SF: 13 ( 1951)
   The Temple of Truth     E. C. Tubb

August
   Changer's Moon     Jo Clyton
   Kelly Country     A. Bertram Chandler
   The Forest of Peldain   Barington J. Bayley

September
   Warrior Woman     Marion Zimmer Bradley
   Flamesong    M. A. R. Barker
   Ibis  Linda Steele
   The Dragon of Mishbil   B. W. Clough

Del Rey
   David Eddings is working on a new fantasy saga, it will be a Del
   Rey hardcover about a year from now.

   With a Tangled Skein   Piers Anthony   book 3 of Incarnations of
   Immortality  October

   Starquake      Robert L. Forward    sequel to Dragon's Egg
   October

   The Atlas of the Land   Karen Wynn Fonstad  map of Thomas Covenant
   November

   The King's Justice     Katherine Kurtz     vol II of King Kelson
    November

   THe Mars One Crew Manual      Kerry Mark Joels
    plans of mars voyage   November

   Killashandra     Anne McCaffrey       sequel to Crystal Singer
    December

   The Gnome King of Oz       Ruth Plumly Thompson     October
   The Giant Horse of Oz
   Jack Pumpkinhead of Oz

July
   Vengeance of the Dancing Gods      Jack Chalker
   The Black Ship          Christopher Rowley
   The Remaking of Sigmund Freud    Barry N. Malzberg

August
   The Bishop's Heir       Katherine Kurtz
   Procyon's Promise       Michael McCollum
   Red Flame Burning       Ward Hawkins

September
   Sentenced to Prism      Alan Dean Foster
   The Misenchanted Sword  Lawrence Watt-Evans
   The Gallatin Divergence    L. Neil Smith

Doubleday
   Robots and Empire    Isaac Asimov    September


Bridge
   The Invaders Plan    book one of ten of Mission Earth
    by L. Ron Hubbard   October   100,000 first hardcover printing
    $1,000,000 promotion and advertising budget

Popular Library  ( Warner )
July
    Masters of Glass       M. Coleman Easton
    Doomstar      Richard S. Meyers
August
    Darkwar Trilogy 1:  Doomstalker     Glen Cook
    Meanwhile           Max Handley
September
    Warrior Witch of Hel     Asa Drake
    The Dushau Trilogy 2: Farfetch   Jacqueline Lichtenberg

Bantam
    The Dream Years     Lisa Goldstein    September
    The Proteus Operation   James P. Hogan   October
    The Postman      David Brin     November  (Brin autographed
       bound gallleys of the book)
The bad news is that Brin's Uplift War is delayed until spring 86.

Randy    NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: Thu 30 May 85 17:24:49-PDT
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: ABA report II

St. Martin's Press also distributes Bluejay and Tor Hardcovers.
Don't believe the dates for Bluejay books.

August
   The Golden Horn   vol II   Judith Tarr    Bluejay
   The Memory of Whiteness    Kim Stanley Robinson   Tor

September
   Steppe           Piers Anthony     Tor
   Wonder's Child   Jack Williamson   Bluejay
   Freedom Beach    James Patrick Kelly/ John Kessel   Bluejay
   The Space Merchants  Frederik Pohl/ C. M. Kornbluth Bluejay

October
   Spinneret         Timothy Zahn   Bluejay
   Human Error       Paul Preuss    Tor
   Privateers        Ben Bova       Tor
   The Widow's Son   Robert Anton Wilson
       (Historical Illuminatus II) Bluejay
   The Legion of Time  Jack Williamson  Bluejay

November
   Song of Kali        Dan Simmons     Bluejay
   Free Live Free      Gene Wolfe      Tor
   The City of the Chasch  Jack Vance  Bluejay

December
   Children of the Light     Susan Weston   St. Martins
   Nightflyers               George R. R. Martin  Bluejay

Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 10:11 PDT
From: Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Animation Fans

LENSMAN played at BayCon in San Francisco this last weekend.  I was
impressed with the animation, which combined standard techniques
with computer imaging.  However, the version I saw was in Japanese
with no subtitles.

It does resemble the stories to some degree, being somewhat taken
from the third book, "Galactic Patrol".  There are, however, some
bizarre twists.  For instance, Kimball Kinnison gets his lens from a
dying lensman.  The Head Honcho Boskonian looks suspiciously like a
sort of giant, twisted samurai warrior.

These things aside, though, I was able to enjoy the film even
without understanding the words.  I recommend seeing it even if you
can't find the subtitled version.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Wed 29 May 85 12:10:17-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: RENSUMON (LENSMAN)

It was showed at BAYCON. I thought that it took (ripped off?) more
from TRON than anything else. I mean Kimball was dressed in what
looked like a TRON program uniform (either that or Rollerball gear)
and there were many many scenes which reminded me of the light-cycle
chase (one in particular used computer animation and was almost
identical except that the maze was three dimensional).

I don't understand why they couldn't follow the plot. It was better
than the one they decided on, at any rate.

-Laurence

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 14:42:51 pdt
From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley
Subject: 2001 intermission

> MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built
> into it!  This intermission is of course rather jarring to the
> flow of the movie.

        2001 was originaly released with an intermission built right
in. It comes just after Bowman and what's his name (sorry, its been
awhile) have gone into the pod so HAL can't hear them.  In fact, if
you watch carefully as HAL is reading their lips, you will note that
they are actually saying 'intermission' back and forth to each
other, at which time intermission occurs.

                        Joe Kalash
                        ucbvax!unisoft!kalash
                        kalash@berkeley (<- will get forwarded)

------------------------------

From: ism70!steven@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: 2001'' -- a warning
Date: 29 May 85 12:56:00 GMT

2001: A Space Odyssey has always been shown in theatres with an
intermission. The intermission occurs after Bowman and Poole sit in
the pod and discuss shutting down HAL.

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: 2010 -- again. . .
Date: 30 May 85 04:14:02 GMT

showard@udenva.UUCP (showard) writes:
>> 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the
>>movie.
>That's irrelevant.  It was in the movie; it was stupid; therefore
>the movie contains a stupid plot device.

Only stupid if you don't know the whole story.  Read the book.  It
was obvious from the time we discovered (in the book; it was mostly
dropped from the movie) that the Europan life forms wanted/needed
more light and warmth, and were very near the aliens' monolith.

>> 2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the
>> ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you
>> think that a totally irrelevany, unintelligible ending is a good
>> thing just so they leave the theater thinking.
>
> 2001 ended the way it should have--ambiguous, like the rest of the
>film.  2010, on the other hand, gave me the impression of: well,
>we've got all this stuff left over from the first film to clear up,
>and we've got all this US- USSR conflict, and we've shot 89
>minutes--let's whip up a happy ending.

(1) The ending of 2001 is something that would HAVE to be conveyed
in print, at least until they get the ``Brainstorm'' machines going
:-).  I don't know of any way to really portray what was going on on
the screen.

(2) If you think the ``Peace'' think was merely hacked in to make a
happy ending by some damfool producer, I suggest you re-read
CHILDHOOD'S END and many of Clarke's shorter works.  I can assure
you that it was done with his full knowledge and consent.

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

From: digi-g!brian@topaz.arpa (Merlyn Leroy)
Subject: 2010 movie vs. book (spoiler)
Date: 29 May 85 20:48:53 GMT

>> 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the
>> movie.
>   That's irrelevant.  It was in the movie; it was stupid;
>therefore the movie contains a stupid plot device.

No, Peter "the hack" Hyams loused up the book.  The plot of the book
"2010" concerned the aliens (played by Ob O'Lysk) encouraging the
life on Europa to grow (in much the same way as they helped the apes
in "2001").  Hyams took out the Chinese (thus ripping out a VERY
IMPORTANT part of the plot) and put in a "sledgehammer-on-the-head"
political subplot, because, as I've said, he's a hack.  Turning
Jupiter into a star WAS NOT DONE FOR HUMANS AT ALL, but strictly for
the Europans (Europeans?).

Read the book.  Forget the movie.  Shoot Hyams before he does more
damage.

Merlyn Leroy

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: 2001'' -- a warning
Date: 31 May 85 14:43:43 GMT

Strange.
I saw 2001 perhaps 10 times and i don't remember any intermission.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 85 2109-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #188
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 1 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:

             Books - Baldwin & Dick & Hogan & Wyndahm,
             Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Rocky Horror (2 msgs) &
                     James Bond & The Terminator,
             Television - Dr. Who
             Miscellaneous - Space Opera (2 msgs) & Criticizing &
                     3D sound

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 85 11:19:35 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Hallgren.pa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #177

Space Opera Defined: The Helmsman by Bil Baldwin.

Mini-Review: Though it was previously mentioned in SFLovers, I think
this book deserves a plug for being a perfect example of Space
Opera; lots of action, and enough of the rest of what makes sf sf.
I found it very enjoyable.  So will readers of C. S. Foresters'
Hornblower books, and E. E. Smiths work.  But to say the least, the
author has a long way to go to rank anywhere near those two.  I
guess I like it because it creates a universe that appeals very
much to me: an Empire against the Nazis.

Cover art actually does represent a scene, but misses by a mile.
Ignore it and buy the book.  I want to read more of this about this
guy.  The author may improve with some encouragement, as Donaldson
did.

Clark H.

------------------------------

From: bunny!ehn0@topaz.arpa (Eric Nyberg)
Subject: Philip K. Dick Mailing List
Date: 30 May 85 12:18:57 GMT

As a result of a bit of enthusiasm following my original posting
some weeks back, I am acting as moderator for a new mailing list
concerned with the works etc. of Philip K. Dick.

The list will be a forum for discussions of Dick's works and their
political/philosophical/religious/literary significance. I would
also like to hear from people building PKD collections, in order to
locate and trade books. I also plan to summarize any happenings
within the PKD Society, of which I am a member. The society is a
great source of info on new publications, anecdotes, photos, etc. I
encourage people to send want lists, opinions on novels, reviews of
new publications, etc.

If you want to be on this mailing list, send me an address that can
be safely reached from CSNET.

Eric Nyberg
ehn0@gte-labs   Eric H. Nyberg, 3rd.    GTE Laboratories, Dept. 317
harvard!bunny!ehn0   40 Sylvan Rd., Waltham, MA 02254  (617)466-2518

------------------------------

From: panda!plw@topaz.arpa (Pete Williamson)
Subject: Re: More on Hogan and SF in general ...
Date: 29 May 85 21:14:49 GMT

>Creating a theory based on genuine science, which is both exciting
>and plausible, is a very demanding task. Hogan is the only writer I
>know who consistently achieves this in every book of his that I've
>read (which is all except the Giants' Trilogy).

I have said this before but I'll be happy to repeat it:

In my opinion, James P. Hogan is one of the very best SF authors
that I've ever read. Principally, I think, because of his genuine
knowledge of computers, science, and technologies. Plus he spins a
marvelous yarn at the same time. Can't wait for his next.

                                                Pete Williamson

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 85  03:48 EDT (Fri)
From: _Bob <Carter@RUTGERS.ARPA>
To: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Old Triffids paperback....

>From: jcr at Mitre-Bedford
>Other copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951
>by Crowell-Collier Publishing Co.

Now *that* is a surprise.  I was certain that the first publication
anywhere was in The Saturday Evening Post.  Must have been in
Collier's (unless C-C owned the Post at the time, or somehow
acquired the copyright).

>Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his
>genius.

How about it Jerry?  Can you help with first serial publication too?

_B

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 May 1985 21:26-EDT
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Star Trek III/IV

        I have been recently been watching my laser disk version of
STIII and besides noticing the usual already mentioned stuff, I have
noticed something that would make an interesting input for STIV. As
we all know, Saavik obliged a quickly maturing Spock on Genesis in
the ways of pon farr. No big deal in itself, but I did notice that
toward the end of the film after Spock is back in his own body, he
goes over to the crew members to look at each one of them.  The
first one he comes to is Saavik. She quickly turns her head down in
shame?...or does she know something that no one else knows? She is
the only one in the party that does not maintain eye contact and
doesn't look happy that Spock is back. Could the name of STIV be
"The Search for Spock's Son"!?
                                                Wes Miller
(wesm@mitre-bedford)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 May 85 17:01 PDT
From: Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Star trek III

Some of these questions were answered with the novelization of
STIII.  In particular, I believe the question of how they got the
Klingon fighter to Vulcan was by talking to Starfleet about it, and
mentioning that they were in a captured Klingon vessel while
transmitting up-to-date StarFleet recognition codes.  Even so,
supposedly, StarFleet shadowed them almost the entire way.  Saavik,
who was under no suspicion at this time, did all the talking.

Perhaps Saavik assumed, as Sarek did, that Kirk obviously already
knew about Spock's memories.  Sarek appeared to believe that Spock
would have given his memories to Kirk rather than McCoy. If Sarek
assumed this, why not Saavik as well?

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 May 85 00:21:00 EST
From: David A. Adler <DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Script for Rocky Horror
Cc: wolters@UDEL-DEWEY.ARPA

There appears to be a script to Rocky Horror online here at MIT-MC.
The file is: MC:HUMOR;ROCKY HORROR. I am not sure how accurate it
is, but it appears to be the complete text. It contains a list of
all the necessary props that you need to be a true participant as
well as the lines for audience participation (for those of you who
have been looking for that aspect of the show). The file can be
transfered using FTP. You might not have to login, but if you do I
am sure it is with the usual "anonymous" user name.

DAdler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 30 May 1985 05:08:57-PDT
From: lionel%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Rocky Horror script

I recall seeing a printed book containing not only all the dialogue
from RHPS but what you were supposed to shout/do and when.  It
included pictures from the film and was in the section of the
bookstore containing books on movies.  This was several years ago,
so I would doubt it's still in print.  I agree that this spoils the
fun, but probably some "virgins" think it's necessary to have a head
start.

Though I've only seen RHPS once, and that was like six years ago, I
still remember it fondly.  Sadly, I read that the Boston theatre
that had been showing it (Exeter St. Theatre) stopped last year -
perhaps I am mistaken?
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Fleming's/Broccoli's/Gardner's 007
Date: 30 May 85 16:26:22 GMT

   Has anyone heard whether Broccoli (or anyone else for that
matter) is interested in filming the John Gardner "Bond" novels?
(*License Renewed*, *For Special Services*, *Icebreaker*, and *Role
of Honor* -- Berkley Books.) A couple of these were pretty good. (I
didn't like *Icebreaker* very much.  LR and FSS were pretty good.)

Fred Avolio
{decvax,seismo}!decuac!avolio      301/731-4100 x4227

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 May 85 17:00 PDT
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison

In today's (May 30) Hollywood Reporter, there is a full page ad that
reads:

Exhibit "A"
Press Release

Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are pleased to announce
that they have resolved their dispute regarding the motion picture
The Terminator and Hemdale Film Corporation acknowledges the works
of HARLAN ELLISON.  [In the ad, "Harlan Ellison" is in bold face]

[then at the bottom, in small type]

With special thanks to Destroyer Lawyer, Henry W. Holmes, Jr.

Does anyone know what this is about.

Reply to me, as I'm not on sf-lovers.

Michael

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 07:44 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Dr. Who Lives

From the Sunday, 26 May Los Angeles Times:

    "Dr. Who," the long-running science fiction series, has been
rescued from extinction.  The BBC canceled the series in February in
an economy move, but an outcry from fans as far afield as Australia
has forced the BBC to revive the show, albeit with an entirely new
cast -- including a replacement for Colin Baker, the sixth actor to
portray the time- traveling doctor.

    Production resumes in January, so American addicts won't be
affected by the pause, said an official of Lionheart Television,
which syndicates the show to 147 markets in America (it airs locally
each Saturday at 1 p.m. on KCET Channel 28).  There are 470
half-hours in U.S. circulation, with 20 coming that have already
aired in the U.K.

------------------------------

Subject: Thanks for defining "space opera"
Date: 28 May 85 23:27:04 PDT (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Thanks to all who volunteered definitions of the term "space opera".
To judge by the flow I've already seen, there are probably yet more
on their way.

A couple of replies made reference to traditional ("classical", if
you like) opera.  As far as story quality goes, the association is
usually valid.  Operas were mostly designed as vehicles for theatre
and music.  Very few have stories that require more than a few
paragraphs to tell, or have much depth or dramatic sense.
Characterisations are usually distorted (since the opera shows at
most the character's reaction to the present situation, ignoring
what s/he's like most of the time) or virtually absent.  Also, the
poetry which the opera sets to music is often execrable, and would
never stand on its own.  None of which was particularly relevant in
the heyday of grand opera (and, I suspect, is not terribly relevant
to space opera): the work tended to be a vehicle for the composer's
finest tunes, and for the listening public's favourite singers to
show off.  In fact, when the form first began to take the shape
opera has today (say late 1600's to early 1700's), the stories were
frequently taken from classical mythology (eg.  Monteverdi's
"Orfeo"), and were well known to audiences, which left them free of
the onerous business of following dramatic development, letting them
admire their favourite singers instead (or do other things
altogether, with the performance simply a pleasant background whose
progress they might check from time to time).

This, of course, applies mostly to the run-of-the-mill opera.  The
works of giants like Mozart, Verdi, and Wagner are of a far greater
set.  Wagner in particular developed true drama, with some (gasp)
logic; and he didn't believe in stopping the action for 15 minutes
so the hero could wail about how dreadful everything was (or
alternately, whom he was in love with this time).  Incredible works,
and some of the greatest music ever written.

From the replies I've seen, I suspect space opera is not so far
removed from all this.

Thanks again for all the replies,
Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 29 May 85 16:31:06 GMT

It seems to me that there are at least two schools of thought on the
subject of "space opera."

One school, the vocal majority, equates space opera with "horse
opera" and goes on to describe a hackneyed, western shoot-em-up plot
with lots of other negative, put-downish connotations.

On the other hand, I have always thought of the space opera as
characterizing that branch of SF where there is considerable action
on a relatively large canvas. To me some of the most rewarding and
enjoyable stories would bear the name space opera rather proudly.
For example, Pattern for Conquest, by George O. Smith, is certainly
a classic in the genre.  Probably all of the stories of the immortal
E.E.Smith, PhD.  The Foundation Series by Asimov.  Star Wars Trilogy

Some that would not qualify as space operas in my book: 2001 -
action small scale and localized except for one sequence.  Most of
the works of A.E. Van Voght.

Borderline examples:
Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers

What do you think?

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: criticizing
Date: 23 May 85 18:15:05 GMT

callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>For those that criticize and tack on "I can do better than that" or
>"I can write better than that", I haven't yet seen someone with a
>BIG mouth actually sit down and do something with all those
>*wonderful* ideas they think they have.
>
>How about it? When are we going to hear something from you other
>than criticism? When are you going to do something?  Why not change
>the story and let us hear *your* ideas?

RIGHT ON!!  I've been trying to do better for four years steadily,
and I'm no threat to Heinlein yet (or even published yet,
dammitall).

"... competent writer ... is an insult" indeed.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1985 18:40 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
Subject: 3-D sound

From AXLER%Upenn:
>...[ZBS Studios] latest project: a series of audiophile-quality
>real-time cassette recordings of various stories, using a binaural
>system that provides near-perfect 3-d sound when played back
>through headphones (no, it won't work on speakers, alas, due to
>some psychological phenomena that I don't really comprehend).

I think it is much more a physical/physiological phenomena than
psychological.  A couple of years ago a VP at Mattel Electronics
handed me a cassette tape produced by an Italian firm demonstrating
their "Holophonic System" capabilities ( the aural equivalent of
holographic, no doubt). There was no technical description of their
equipment, but the photograph on the cassette liner showed a model
of a human head ( sans nose or ears ) swathed in some fabric. I
suspect this is what ZBS Studios is using.

We apparently sense sound directionality by some very impressive
mental signal processing. A sound made in front, off to the right,
will hit the right ear first, then phase shifted and attenuated and
hits the left ear. Sound is also propagated at differing velocities
and attenuations in the hard and soft tissue. This is all heard, and
we (almost) instantaneously know where it came from. I think the
"Holophonic System" is a fairly accurate sonic model of the human
head, with small microphones placed where the eardrums should be, a
hard interior and soft exterior.

The demo tape is a real gas. The effects on the tape include:
        A carbonated beverage poured INSIDE your head (listening to
        this after drinking a bottle of Old Tennis Shoes is the
        earthly equivalent to the Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster);

        A woman approaches from one side saying (in Italian) "I'm
        getting closer" until she is breathing in your ear (it is so
        realistic that you can feel her breath on your neck
        {definitely a psychological effect}), moves to your other
        ear and starts to say "I'm moving away" as she does so.

        A haircut at an Italian barber shop, with a blow dry (the
        best effects of all).

Incidentally, the effect does degrade as the speakers (I used a set
of speakers that plug into a walkman) move away from your ears (4
inches was about the max.)  The sound that hits one ear has to be
much greater than the sound traveling from the other ear's speaker
or the phase info gets destroyed.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 85 2129-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #189
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 1 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Silverberg & Cover Blurbs &
                    Footfall & Some Reviews,
            Films - Terminator (3 msgs) & Star Trek,
            Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 May 85 13:35:34 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Univac

from Robert Neinast:
> However, you are correct in that the AC at the end of Univac DOES
> stand for Analog Computer.

No.  It stands for Automatic Computer.  Univacs were digital
computers, not analog.
                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]

------------------------------

From: utastro!fritz@topaz.arpa (Fritz Benedict)
Subject: "Gilgamesh the King" by R. Silverberg (**mild SPOILER)
Date: 27 May 85 15:59:18 GMT

Micro review:

"Gilgamesh the King" by Robert Silverberg -

Interesting book about strokes, epilepsy, tree diseases and aging,
told from the viewpoint of a larger and smarter than average male
inhabitant of the Fertile Crescent, circa 3000 BC. Quite erroneously
marked SCF in my local library, it is a straightforward retelling of
the "Epic of Gilgamesh", one of the oldest stories around.  If you
like SilverBob, you'll like this book.

Fritz Benedict  (512)471-4461x448
uucp: {...noao,decvax,ut-sally}!utastro!fritz
arpa: fritz@ut-ngp
snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX  78712

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 11:46 MST
From: Mills@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: back cover blurbs

I am also annoyed at just how much of a story a cover blurb aften
gives away.  My solution is to take advantage of my unperfect memory
by buying the book, but not reading it until I have forgotten what
it is about.  This also helps to maintain a supply and avoid running
out of entertainment reading.

John Mills

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 85 13:47 PDT
From: Tom Perrine <tom@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Footfall

I saw an ad for "Footfall" by Pournell and Niven in this months
Analog.  I haven't seen it in any bookstore yet, and they say "it
will be here next month." Has anyone seen it yet?

Please reply directly to me. Thx.

Tom Perrine
tom@logicon.ARPA
Perrine@mit-multics.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 30 May 85 02:20:56-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: The Stochastic Man

"The Stochastic Man" is by Robert Silverberg, copyright 1975. It
deals with the idea of second sight - reliable foreknowledge. I
recommend it, although not as highly as:

"Space Opera", by Jack Vance (Copyright 1965, DAW printing 1979).

Wherein a patron of the arts mounts an operatic expedition to the
stars ...  an expedition that does not run smoothly at all ... no,
not at all ...
                        Don Lindsay           Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa

------------------------------

From: cvl!hsu@topaz.arpa (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: speaking of terminator...
Date: 31 May 85 04:51:27 GMT

> From: <crash!usiiden!jholt@Nosc>
> ...did anyone notice that the 'listings' as seen thru the
> terminator's eyes were snippets of apple's old dos 3.3?  i wonder
> if this constitutes copyright infringement?
>                       joe holt

Egads.  The guy in the army jacket IS on the net.  Freeze frames of
course reveal the code to be some sort of set-up routine on the
VTOC, but I suspected it was probably somebody else's DOS routines.
And the much-touted COBOL only appeared in one sequence, am I right?

-dave

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: speaking of terminator...
Date: 30 May 85 17:28:14 GMT

Did you also notice the code in COBOL and BASIC.  I found the idea
extremely funny that a super sophisticated robot would be using
those languages.  Did anyone happen to notice any other languages
they were using?  Actually I thought that the Terminator was a
pretty good sf movie.  The premise struck me as being similar to one
Fred Saberhagen used in one of his Beserker stories 'Brother
Assassin'.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 03:42:01-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: TERMINATOR novelizations

> From: daemon!bobp@topaz.arpa (Robert N Perry)
> Having seen the movie about 4 times I'd like to know if anyone can
> tell me if there exists a book with the same story line.  Title
> and author, please. Thanks.

Not yet. From LOCUS, May 1985:

"In a battle of the movie novelizations, publishers are finally
getting around to doing tie-in books for sf hit THE TERMINATOR.
W.H. Allen has its own version, which Lyle Stuart had intended to
import for the U.S., but U.S. rights have now gone to Bantam which
plans its own version plus a sequel."   (p. 5)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343)
Subject: Re: STAR TREK IV
Date: 25 May 85 00:19:22 GMT

It seems that the plot to Star Trek IV: The Search For Enterprise is
as follows: (This information is from a RELIABLE source)

        The USS Enterprise having been regenerated in the atmosphere
of the Genesis planet,and feeling very well after the whole
experience,heads for the planet Vulcan.The Enterprise is being
controlled by a mysterious Energy force of a type never encountered
before.
        The crew,all having been on the Genesis planet,lose all of
their wrinkles and feel young and beautiful again,and ready to take
on another five year voyage.Captain Kirk doesn't lose all of his
wrinkles (due to there being too many of them.),but is cleared of
all charges and declared a hero.
        The crew all beam up to the Enterprise,exchange a few
cliches,and head towards a black hole,that just happens to be lying
around near by in space) at warp factor 10.Due to the immense
gravity of the black hole they go back in time to just before the
Enterprise buys it over Genesis.Because there are now two
Enterprises,the Klingon Bird Of Prey is blown out of existence.
Kirk's son David does not die,so Kirk misses his chance to swear and
act emotional.
        There are now two Enterprises left and two crews,so both
crews enter the transporter at the same time and are joined together
as one.Then they all return to Earth with two Enterprises,Star Fleet
forgives them all (one reason being that they now have two
Enterprises to sell for scrap instead of one), and Kirk is declared
a Hero (again).
        (The crew went on to make guest appearances in the new
series of T.J.Hooker).

------------------------------

From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I
Date: 27 May 85 16:56:22 GMT

In his reply to Davis Tucker's posting, Steve Brust writes:
> self-indulgent was invented to describe him.  And Mailer doesn't
> even have Capote's occasional gift for turn of phrase.  I read SF
> because most (not all) of the best writers are working there.

While I agree with much of what you have to say in your response,
Steve, this particular comment is absolute nonsense. Without even
trying hard I've come up with a list of more-or-less active
mainstream fiction writers who at their worst are at least as good
as the best SF has to offer, and are CERTAINLY better than certain
poseurs who are sometimes cited as paragons of writerly virtue in
this group. How many of the following authors have you read, for
example; Jorge Amado, John Barth, Donald Barthelme, Saul Bellow,
Thomas Berger, T. Coraghessan Boyle, Italo Calvino, Robert Coover,
Don DeLillo, Joan Didion, Jose Donoso, Stanley Elkins, Carlos
Fuentes, William Gass, Gunter Grass, Graham Greene, John Hawkes,
Carol Hill, Russell Hoban, William Kennedy, Milan Kundera, Doris
Lessing, Mario Vargas Llosa, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, James Alan
McPherson, V. S. Naipul (sp?), Walker Percy, Thomas Pynchon, Ishmael
Reed, Philip Roth, Ntozake Shange, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Peter
Taylor, Paul Theroux, John Updike, Gore Vidal, Peter De Vries, or
Alice Walker to mention a few voices in mainstream fiction that are
hard to ignore (sorry if I've skipped anyone's favorites or
overemphasized someone whose faults I'm blind to)? In what way are
the best writers in SF more numerous or better writers than these
mainstream people? We're talking superior craftsmanship here, things
like real dialogue by real people, little things I find infrequently
in much SF.

People in this newsgroup have cited Harlan Ellison and Roger
Zelazny, for example, as examples of superior craftsmen of fiction.
Harlan Ellison covers a lack of talent by projecting a hip,
wisecracking persona that he apparently thinks will delude the
unsophisticated into thinking he has something important to say. And
Roger Zelazny (or is it Zelazney?) is even more of a fraud. His
'masterpieces' are poorly told bad jokes that would be mildly
amusing if they were five or ten pages long, but Zelazny, like the
crashing bore at the cocktail party insists on overstaying his
welcome by expanding these bad jokes into full-length novels. The
dialogue, characterization, and narrative in Lord of Light and
Creatures of Light and Darkness are amateurish; consider the clumsy
and stilted passages where Mahasamatman (sp? I don't own the book
any longer and haven't read it for some years) 'heroically' names
himself for us mortals' benefit: "...Some call me Sam, and most call
me ham, but you can call me Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this
believable or well-done? These books are Bad with a capital B
because Zelazny doesn't really believe in these characters.  I
challenge the best of you out there to care about a character and
bring him or her to life for your readers when you yourself have no
faith in your own characters or any real interest in them other than
as devices to carry the plot along!

Why do Harlan Ellison, Roger Zelazny, and so many other SF authors
write such bad fiction? There was a novel of socialist realism that
experienced a certain popularity in England toward the end (as I
recall) of the 19th century. It's called The Ragged-Trousered
Philanthropists, and it's about the trials and tribulations of a
group of house painters who are abused by their employers. This is
bad writing for the same reasons that much of SF is bad writing:
unbelievable dialogue, cardboard characters, a linear and
predictable plot. The reason? The author cared more about getting a
message about the oppression of the working class across than he
cared about his characters, and it shows.  They're romanticized
images of what he'd LIKE workingmen to be rather than living,
breathing believable workingmen. The same thing's true of other
'message' fiction like Uncle Tom's Cabin and (sadly) much of SF.
Fiction that stresses function at the expense of form is constantly
in danger of degenerating into bathos and melodrama.

Those of you who doubt this assessment of Steve's claims for the SF
genre's containing the best contemporary writers should try the
following experiment. Buy or borrow a copy of V. S. Naipul's A Bend
In The River (your local library will have a copy) and a copy of
Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (I use Lord of Light because it's been
cited in this group as an example of excellent writing). I think
most of you will agree that accurate dialogue and realistic
characterization (hence, believable characters) are two
characteristics that distinguish well-written fiction from
poorly-written fiction (yes, there are other characteristics as
well).  You're going to examine each author's text and evaluate his
treatment of dialogue and characterization.  First, read each of the
books to get a feel for the narrative. Next, go through each novel
and write down ten or fifteen examples of dialogue from each.
Compare the dialogue from each novel side by side; read it silently
at first, then out loud (or better still, have someone else read it
to you). Assign each sample of dialogue a numeric or letter grade
based on its believability; dialogue that sounds like the character
in question would really have uttered it and that tells you
something about the character or his relationship to other
characters would get a good score. Dialogue that is stilted and
unrealistic, that exists to further the plot or the 'message' the
author is trying to get across would get a bad score. Try to be as
objective as possible when you're doing this. Look at the results;
which book has consistently higher scores? Finally, write down
everything you know about the protagonists in each novel. Which
protagonist feels more lifelike, is more believable? Go back through
each novel and look for passages that tell you something about the
character. Compare these passages side by side. Is the information
presented in a manner that makes complete sense in terms of the
plot? Do you see why the author is presenting the information at
this point in the narrative, or does it seem artificially grafted on
top of the plot for extraneous motives? Do you sense the presence of
the author in what he's written, or see the scaffolding that should
be hidden from the reader (Note: some authors have made a living out
of playing these kind of games with their readers' heads. Vladimir
Nabokov is the foremost example.  Whether this is a good or bad
strategy, it takes a conscious effort and much skill to pull it off.
I'm talking here about a lack of skill that lets such scaffolding
show unwittingly). Which book in your final analysis seems to come
out ahead in terms of the author's skill and control over his
material, and the realistic presentation of the characters and
events? I'm willing to bet you'll vote for the Naipul novel.

The second and final stage in our experiment is more painful,
because it requires a certain investment in time and effort in
reading non-SF fiction that many of you may be reluctant to make.
Take five to ten novels by authors from the list I've given you, and
five to ten novels that you feel are the best SF has to offer.
Repeat the comparative process I've described with all of them. Rank
all novels without regard to genre in order of your assessment of
the author's skill in presenting dialogue and characterization.
Again, try to be as objective as possible. If two novels are too
close to call, write their names side by side. If Steve Brust's
claim that most of the best contemporary writers of fiction are
working in the SF genre is correct, then most of the entries in the
top half of the list will be novels from the SF genre. Are they? If
they are, I apologize for my poor judgement and I'll gladly eat my
hat (but at least I've gotten a few of you to read some fiction you
might have otherwise passed by!).  I firmly believe, however, that
most perceptive people who diligently try this experiment will find
that most writers on my list can create believable characters and
dialogue at least as skillfully as the best and the brightest SF has
to offer, and that some of them clearly outclass even the best SF
writers. I encourage you to extend this experiment to consider other
qualities of fiction like narrative and imagery.

Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people; there are a LOT of
excellent craftsmen outside the SF genre writing first-rate fiction.
You may not know about them or care to read what they've written;
fine. Just don't make ridiculous claims about the scarcity of good
writers outside the narrow confines of SF unless you know what
you're talking about and you've read widely outside the genre. And
if you're going to make grandiose claims, at least provide some
supporting evidence or you're going to unknowingly support the
arguments of those who claim that SF is second-class literature.

                               -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 85 2155-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #190
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 190

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous -The Problems of SF Today (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III
Date: 28 May 85 14:53:55 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
     PART III: Self-Censorship And The Science Fiction Establishment
                          by Davis Tucker

I recently had the weird pleasure of reading a book by K. W. Jeter,
"Dr.  Adder". Not to make any assumptions, but I doubt you've heard
of him. This book is deeply disturbing, dealing in a morass of human
degradation, genital mutilation, castration fears, religion,
hopelessness, sexual attraction for amputees, insanity, paranoia,
and many other horrible things that humanity has buried in its
collective subconscious. It's also very apparent that this is a very
good science fiction novel. It has depth and breadth of
characterization, great imagination, a wonderful sense of
extrapolation, no puns, a well-conceived plot, and an interesting
narrative point of view. It's a little reminiscent of "The Stars My
Destination" in its scope and grittiness and unwillingness to temper
its anger or sugar-coat its themes. Its main character is an amoral,
indecisive young man who happens to have had a famous father. Its
title character, in some ways the hero of the book, is a doctor who
tailors prostitute's bodies into horrible but lucrative mutations or
mutilations. I like to think of myself as very open-minded, but
novels like this one make me see how shallow that perception of
myself is. This novel challenges the reader's ability to accept a
scenario that is in all ways horrible and hopeless, with no exit.
The reader is bludgeoned at almost every page with some new
perversion, some new plot twist, some new means of making the human
condition even more alien and unsettling. Despite all of this, it is
doubtful that any reader of "Dr. Adder" will come away from it
without enrichment, without appreciation, and without the opinion
that this is a very good novel. It is that apparent - the talent of
this author shows very clearly. Yet this novel took 12 years to
reach publication.

Science fiction fans like to think of the genre as being on the
cutting edge of writing, of being experimental, of being fresh and
new and uninhibited. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Gabriel Garcia Marquez' "One Hundred Years Of Solitude" would never
have been published by a science fiction house - the editors would
have said "too weird", "no spaceships", "how did the girl get up
into the sky - with anti-gravity devices?", "no dirt-eating, sorry",
"why did you start out with the end of the story?", and other such
nonsense. If anything, the science fiction establishment, fans, and
writers are pretty hidebound and more conservative in their approach
to something new than their mainstream counterparts.  For all the
lip service paid to nourishing new talent, there's precious little
crumbs being spread around, and most of those are to new authors who
resemble old ones, who rehash the same old themes in the same old
manner, as previously stated. But let's leave sleeping dogs lie.

It's certainly not any overt censorship that's being perpetrated on
us, such as the movie industry put over itself in the 30's and 40's,
or the censorship that banned Henry Miller, James Joyce, D. H.
Lawrence, and a host of other European writers in the first half of
the 20th Century on our shores. And that's what makes it so
difficult to eradicate, or even find. It's the editor who suggests
to a new author, "Well, everything's fine except this one passage
where the woman assumes the shape of a man and goes home and rapes
her mother... they won't take that in ANALOG, and we can't take it
here." It's the reader who tells all his friends not to read
so-and-so's latest work because it's not *really* science fiction.
It's the Nebula Awards, the Hugos, it's in every science fiction
publishing department and magazine office. It's in every reader.

Everyone has an idea of what that elusive ghost "science fiction"
is, and even if sometimes he or she is a little fuzzy about what it
is, there's certainly no doubt about what it isn't. And that
mindset, which all of us have to one degree or another as regards
science fiction (me, I don't care what anybody says, I'm not reading
any "Little Fuzzy" novels), is at the root of this self-censorship.
It is all-pervasive in such a tiny community. From readers who stop
reading the "Gor" novels because of their obnoxious sexism, to
editors who refuse to publish a novel they know is outstanding
because it doesn't fit into one neat category or another, to authors
who continue to churn out predictable material because they know it
will sell, it binds us all together in very tight chains of the
mind. And it begins from that hidebound definition of "science
fiction". There are a multitude of reasons to never read a "Gor"
novel, and sexism is one of the minor ones.

I'm not going to go over the old ground of Hugo Gernsback and his
"scientifiction", of the other pulps that contributed to defining in
unfortunately negative terms what "science fiction" is. Suffice to
say that prior to these idea magnates, the popular readership of the
world and the U.S. did not consider H. G. Wells or Jules Verne or
various others to be writing "science fiction" of any
distinguishable sort. And let's not delude ourselves - the fiction
in the pulps was always aimed at primarily juvenile audiences, and
continued in that vein for quite awhile (until today? hmmmm...). But
due to these factors of history, we have forged a sort of collective
definition which has forced many of us to resort to self-censorship
to retain our definition. This is not about sex or foul language,
necessarily - though try to think of the last short story you read
in any of the science fiction magazines where a character said
something more nasty than "shit" or "goddamn" (and I'll lay you 2-1
odds that character wasn't a woman). Or try to think of a story in
one of those magazines which dealt with the subject of sexuality, as
opposed to having sex in it. Science fiction, which so many of us
have thought of as being imaginative and radical, has turned out to
be provincial, dull, and conservative (even when being radical - re:
"Starship Troopers", "Farnham's Freehold", etc. by Robert Heinlein).
It's like the slave who chains himself to the wall every night.
That's okay, we all can read what we want to read, but let's not
indulge in hypocrisies of freedom as we put on our chains. I don't
know anyone who reads "bodice rippers", or "surging sagas"
(historical romance novels aimed at the female market) who claims
that they have any importance whatsoever beyond being a good read.
There's no hypocrisy in enjoying trash for being trash. But there
certainly is in claiming literary worth for "Battlefield Earth" or
"Dragonriders Of Pern" or "The Number Of The Beast".

Well, that's all for today, kids. Tune in next week as we take a new
tack on the seas of criticism - "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION
TODAY, PART IV: Fantasy, Or How To Hack A Hobbit And Build A Balrog
In One Easy Lesson".  I'll leave you with an extended quote from
Phillip K. Dick in his afterword to K. W. Jeter's novel, "Dr.
Adder".

"Here was not just a good novel; here was a great novel... Very
simply, it is a stunning novel and it destroys once and for all your
conception of the limitations of science fiction. This is, of
course, why so many years had to pass before it saw print...

"I don't wish to fall back on the easy statement that DR. ADDER was
ahead of its time. It wasn't. It was right on the nose. What was
wrong was this: the field of science fiction was *behind* the times.
I have no doubt that if DR. ADDER had been published in 1972 it
would have been a blockbuster of a commercial success, and what is
more, its impact on the field would have been enormous. The field
has been growing weak. It has for years become ossified. A stale
timidity has crept over it. Endless novels about sword fights and
figures in cloaks who perform magic... have been cranked out,
published, sold, and the field of science fiction has been
transmuted into a joke field...

"History does judge you, publisher, author, and reader alike... I am
writing this Afterword for you the reader, not for K. W. Jeter. I am
writing this to tell you, Forget your timid preconceptions of what a
science fiction novel should be like. Forget the little people...
and sword fights on imaginary planets. This novel is about *our
world* and so it is a dangerous novel...  Which is terrific. This is
precisely what we need."

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III
Date: 29 May 85 02:19:45 GMT

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>Everyone has an idea of what that elusive ghost "science fiction"
>is, and even if sometimes he or she is a little fuzzy about what it
>is, there's certainly no doubt about what it isn't. And that
>mindset, which all of us have to one degree or another as regards
>science fiction (me, I don't care what anybody says, I'm not
>reading any "Little Fuzzy" novels), is at the root of this
>self-censorship. It is all-pervasive

   And when people criticize what they don't like, THEY are
furthering the "self-censorship," right?  You made some valid points
in the first two parts of this essay, but this one is entirely
self-contradictory.  Because I read what I enjoy, and I don't read
what I don't enjoy, I'm guilty of censorship?  Nonsense.  Better
luck next time.

j "vo" p
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 10:39 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply

I have one question for Davis Tucker: Who died and appointed you
Ghod?  You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are
not. Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else.
Just because a majority may agree with your opinion (which, I
believe, is not the case now), that does not make the opinion RIGHT.
You have your opinions and I have mine.  Don't try to foist yours
off on me as the Word from on high.

Also, I think you've lost the ability - if you ever had it - to read
for fun, for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing
industry would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction,
it would never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent
book, but the field doesn't end with that one title).

On top of all that, you give the impression that you believe science
fiction to be the last refuge for the hack writer. That's
ridiculous. Go to a book store and look at the bestsellers list.
Just about every writer on the list would most likely fit your
definition of hack. Even the worst of the science fiction hacks has
got to be better than Barbara Cartland. However, she has written
lots of books (only one plot, I believe, but lots of books) and they
sell quite well. As for television and Star Trek, consider that
there are at least two episodes of the Dukes of Hazzard for every
one Star Trek. Face it, hacks are everywhere. Some of the mainstream
hacks have even tried to write science fiction (it doesn't strike me
as quite fair to use Gore Vidal and Doris Lessing as your only
examples of mainstream writers - they represent a very small
minority of the ones who have tried to write sf) and most of them
have failed miserably.

Try thinking your arguements out a little more thoroughly next time,
please.  And then present them as what they are - opinions.

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I
Date: 30 May 85 17:53:24 GMT

wfi@unc.UUCP (William F. Ingogly) writes:
>Without even trying hard I've come up with a list of more-or-less
>active mainstream fiction writers who at their worst are at least
>as good as the best SF has to offer, and are CERTAINLY better than
>certain poseurs who are sometimes cited as paragons of writerly
>virtue in this group. How many of the following authors have you
>read, for example; Jorge Amado, John [continued ad nauseum]

Oh, we are back into this argument again. sigh.

To start with, it is possible to generate a list at least as long of
BAD mainstream writers as it is to generate a list of good
mainstream writers.  It is ALSO possible to generate a list of
writers, both good and bad, in SF, in mystery, romance, or any
genre. This proposition is intuitively obvious to anyone who has
studied Sturgeons Law, which also, I should add, is appropriate to
postings to sf-lovers, and probably to this posting.

For every Graham Greene (who isn't really mainstream, but more in
the thriller/mystery/spy genre) or Gunter Grass, you can find an
author in some other [generic] genre that writes as well. You can
also find a clinker in their work. What I see here is an attempt to
define mainstream by the best of the best and compare it with the
worst of the best in the SF genre, and that's apples and oranges,
folks. Sure, Ellison has clinked out at times, but Mailer and Capote
and the rest have tossed out some outrageous and/or self-indulgent
stuff as well. If you want to get into the second rank (and rank is
an appropriate word for some of this stuff) in the mainstream, look
to Sydney Sheldon and friends.

What DOES matter is this: the best of the mainstream work is very
good. The best of the genre stuff (even in romance) is very good.
I'll hold up 'When Jefty is five' or 'Adrift of the Isles of
Langerhans' or Wolfe's New Sun books or any number of other genre
works against the works of a Capote or a Mailer. I'll also throw
away the garbage of both, very happily.

>People in this newsgroup have cited Harlan Ellison and Roger
>Zelazny, for example, as examples of superior craftsmen of fiction.
>Harlan Ellison covers a lack of talent by projecting a hip,
>wisecracking persona that he apparently thinks will delude the
>unsophisticated into thinking he has something important to say.

You sound suspiciously like you are proving a point to yourself. If
you've decided going in that SF is sh*t, then you will no doubt be
able to prove your preconceptions. I find that Ellison has a
wonderful command of the English language. Zelazny deals with
cultures and mores, Varley and Spider Robinson with people and
attitudes, and Heinlein with whatever he wants to (clunkers and
all). If I were to decide that mainstream work was garbage, I'd have
no problem 'proving' that to myself, simply because when I went to
'research' the topic, I'd be expecting it. And I'd find it. That
doesn't prove anything.

>Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people; there are a LOT of
>excellent craftsmen outside the SF genre writing first-rate
>fiction.

There are lots of people IN the genre writing first rate fiction,
and lots of people outside the genre writing garbage and lots of
people in the genre writing garbage. so what? I don't think of it as
a ghetto, either - I prefer the term neighborhood.

Lots of people DO stay in their neighborhood, and there is
absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would like to point out,
however, that there IS more to life than sf/fantasy, and all of the
serious sf authors I've met seem to have read widely beyond the
genre literature. You can enjoy 'To Reign in Hell' (to take a recent
example on the net) just fine on its own.  If you've plowed your way
through 'Paradise Lost' (not for the weak of heart) or skipped
lightly through 'Inferno' and the rest of Dante's work a lot of the
subtle references start making sense and the book takes on different
meanings. Lots of authors make allusions to literature outside the
genre. A good book survives without it, but it becomes a better book
when you can recognize it.

Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 85 2233-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #191
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 2 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:

             Books - Ellison & Heinlein & Dragonlance &
                     A Story Request Answered,
             Films - Star Trek & Rocky Horror & Adaptions of Books,
             Television - Between Time and Timbuktu &
                     Marketing PBS Movies & The Prisoner &
                     Space: 1999,
             Miscellaneous - Mainstream vs SF & Space Opera

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 May 85 15:22:18 CST
From: David Callahan <david@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #181

So whatever happened to Harlan Ellison?  No longer writing?  All
washed up?  Dead?  Womanizing?  If anyone knows, do tell.

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 85 15:49:59 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein references in Music

     Yes, that is the song I am referring to. On either 4-way-street
or The Woodstock Album, there is some patter introducing the song
where whoever is talking says that he wrote the song. I think it is
Crosby, but I am probably wrong. I do not have the album, only a
tape of that song, so I do not know who wrote it. I have never heard
Slick's rendition of it.

nice to know Im not the only one who listens to the words!
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: avsdS!steve@topaz.arpa (Steve Russell)
Subject: book comments
Date: 29 May 85 22:56:46 GMT

Anybody out there reading TSR's "Dragonlance" series?

If not, you should be.

If you are, who do you think will get killed-off next and what do
you think Rastlin's role in all this is?

Also, Fizban appears as a senile old wizard in the first novel but
in the second he has periods of complete command. Any comments?

Lastly, who is the 'emerald gem man' the bad guys keep talking
about?

steve     avsdS:steve

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 85 08:54 PDT
From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re : Name that story
To: ukma!sean@topaz.ARPA

The book you are thinking of isn't a book at all, but rather a short
story. At least the version I read was a short story. It is called
"All The Time in the World", and was written by Daniel Keys Moran
(his first sale). It appeared in the May 1982 edition of Isaac
Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine.

The story itself is pretty much as you described it, though the
characters were slightly different. The woman was born in the
post-holocaust future, but she has no control or effect on entropy.
She does have silver-iris eyes which will turn wild colors in the
presence of radioactivity (a trait that has allowed her clan to
survive). Her clan is matriarchal, with its men "stupid grunts" kept
for breeding purposes only, and never otherwise mentioned in the
story. The man you describe accurately. He was born in the early
1700's and has died at least once before the story takes place, but
enemy of entropy that he is, he doesn't stay dead. He describes
being bayoneted and decapitated in World War I, and waking up
several minutes later feeling somewhat perturbed. It's him that
causes the rusted guardrails to turn gleaming.

The climactic scene involves a *very* entropic "hand grenade thingy"
being thrown at them, him catching it, and he and it having a
tug-of-war you would not want to see from anywhere close by.

It was an excellent story, even more remarkable considering that it
was Moran's first. I have not heard of the author since, however.

                   JohnnyT

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 07:11-EDT
From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: ST III - Kilograms laid to rest

        After much evaluation (otherwise known as replaying), it is
my opinion, as well as that of other unbiased parties, that the
Klingon in question do not say "kilograms" but "kalicams" as do the
other Klingons in that scene. The best way to prove it is to read
his lips. Granted, it is not said clearly, but never the less,
careful investigation will prove me right.

                        Wes Miller (wesm@mitre-bedford)

------------------------------

From: warwick!asz@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter)
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show
Date: 25 May 85 05:14:54 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits
>> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits
>> of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on
>> video, I'd like to try and jog my memory.
>>              Alan
>
>I, for one, will not.  RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it
>was destroyed by the audience participation.

Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience
participation).  Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy the
sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same without
audience participation - it is essential to the whole ethos to have
the participation.
                                        Alex
                        ... mcvax!ukc!ubu!snow!asz

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 05:10:46-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Film adaptations

> From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
>   All of this has brought up another item of interest.  When a
> movie is adapted from a book, how obligated is the movie to follow
> the story?  With the kinds of restrictions I mentioned in my last
> message, a direct correlation of story elements is usually
> impossible.  What if the author of the screenplay believes the
> story can be improved with some plot (or character) changes?
> Should it be done? How much?

I'd be hard pressed to add anything to Mark Leeper's comment that
the film maker's first duty is to make a good film, but I have some
ancillary remarks:

You yourself bring up a good point --- that there are some things in
novels that can't translate directly to the screen, necessitating
changes. A large cast of main characters is one of the more obvious.

I suspect that the director/screenwriter/producer/whatever, in some
cases, wants to do his own thing, but it's hard to get financial
backing these days, so buying the rights to a popular book --- and
casting a popular star --- helps to get that backing. Or, especially
these days, the story is close enough to an already published novel
that he'd get sued if he didn't buy the rights, but not close enough
to be a true adaptation.

Oftentimes, it's just that the screenwriter is presumptuous enough
to think that he can improve upon the original. Look at Stanley
Kubrick. I think the changes he made in bringing Anthony Burgess's A
CLOCKWORK ORANGE to the screen were for the better. But, with his
THE SHINING, the changes were for the worse. In the novel, Torrance
was close to the edge and the supernatural occurrences in the hotel
sent him crashing over. With the film, the supernatural events were
downplayed in favor of presenting Torrance as nutso right from the
beginning. Certainly a valid point of view, and the movie was quite
reasonable with that approach. I still think that a more faithful
adaptation of King's novel would have made a better film, but I have
no ethical objection to Kubrick's having made the changes.

Another tack: John Carpenter's THE THING is much more faithful to
Campbell's "Who Goes There?" than the Howard Hawks/Christian Nyby
film, yet the latter is a better film. Which is preferable?

Most of the objections I have to changes is not that they are made,
but that in many (most?) cases, the changes are frivolous and make
no sense.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ughenry@topaz.arpa (Henry Neeman)
Subject: Re:  Obscure PBS show
Date: 29 May 85 17:13:21 GMT

> Many years ago I saw a show on PBS that I would love to get on
> tape or at least see just ONE MORE TIME.  IT was called "Between
> Time and Timbuktu (sp)" and I saw it on WGBH (who I think produced
> it).  I believe that it was written by Kurt Vonnegut.  Does anyone
> remember?  Gary

  "Between Time and Timbuktu" was not written by Vonnegut; rather,
it was based on minor characters in his books.  The hero was Stony
Stevenson, a luckless astronaut who won a trip to the
Chono-synclastic infidibulum (sp?)  and had some bizzare,
avant-garde film adventures.  Both the character name and the
concept (c.-s. i.) were from Vonnegut's _The_Sirens_of_ Titan_.  The
title comes from the first chapter of _Sirens_, which is "Between
*Timid* and Timbuktu", which, as Vonnegut explains, refers to the
fact that all the words which fall into that category in his
dictionary have to do with time.
  Note: I didn't see this show; it came on before I got serious (8-)
about PBS.  However, the library here has several copies of the
script, with stills.
  Also, Bob and Ray were the commentators (Vonnegut loves Bob and
Ray).
  And other characters (I can't remember who played them) were Diana
Moon Glampers (the name of a fat, stupid, unloved old woman in _God_
Bless_You,_Mr._Rosewater_ and the person in charge of handicaps in
the short story "Harrison Bergeron"), Harrison Bergeron and some
others that I can't remember at the moment.
  Hope that helps...I know *I* enjoyed it.

                Henry J. Neeman (ughenry@buffalo)

------------------------------

From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Thu, 30 May 85 09:10:42 PDT
Subject: Marketing PBS movies

I recently saw a suggestion from someone on this digest concerning
PBS and the possibilities of their marketing some of the movies
they've made.

I'd like to add my signature to that petition (if there is one).  I,
too, watch "The Lathe of Heaven" every time it comes on PBS, and
would gladly pay $30 or $40 for a copy of it on VHS.  Has anyone
ever suggested to the PBS Corp. (or Inc., or whatever) that they
market some of their stuff on videotape?  Sounds like an excellent
idea to me, and would probably help their cash flow quite a bit.

Is there any way to get this suggestion to someone involved with
PBS?

Jerry Hewett {crash!jerryh@ucsd}

------------------------------

From: clements@bbncca.ARPA (Robert Clements)
Subject: The Prisoner returns to New England
Date: 31 May 85 04:51:19 GMT

The Prisoner will be shown on Channel 11, New Hampshire PBS (and
Boston area cable systems) at 9 PM on Saturdays, starting June 8th.

/Rcc

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999.
Date: 25 May 85 00:30:16 GMT

Space 1999 has not been well received in the UK, mainly because the
TV companies played the series down a lot,they only repeat the
second series now (The worst in my opinion) and when they do repeat
the series, it is put on at awkward times.  The series, in my
opinion, relied too heavily on special effects and did not
concentrate on the characters and plot as heavily as they should
have to make it a very good series.  If handled correctly the series
could have become a cult series (almost as much as STAR TREK). But
it was very badly handled and then to compound matters the show
brought in Fred Freiberger to produce the show (after he had cocked
up the third series of STAR TREK),and they bought in a shape
changing alien????? (some may say "what about Garth in 'Whom Gods
Destroy'",but he never changed into a non-human form). This really
killed off the series in a lot of fans eyes and did not help
encourage new people to watch and like the series.

                ANY REPLIES TO THE ABOVE?

------------------------------

From: ddb@mrvax.DEC
Subject: Literary vs SF genres
Date: 29 May 85 15:42:35 GMT

With or without a license, as they say, I gotta butt into this.

I'm pleased to see such a large amount of light being directed into
this discussion, even if mostly we're shining it into each others
eyes.  Detailed suggestions of what is "good literature" today are
especially useful.  Indeed, I haven't read most of the authors
listed, and it's possible that I may try some of them and perform
the comparisons suggested (GOOD suggestions on how to compare books,
by the way).  However, the fact is that both at home and in school
I've tried a moderate amount of what various people at various times
thought was good literature (literary genre, as opposed to
best-seller genre; there is no "mainstream" any more), and I thought
it stunk, for exactly the reasons various people are criticizing SF:
unbelievable characters, bad dialogue.  So I'm not enthusiastic
about diving back into the swamp for another go.

People have sufficiently different views of humanity that characters
probably can't please all of us.  Those of you espousing the
literary genre as a religion should note that many of us in the
other camp feel at least as strongly.  I wouldn't say that most of
the best writers today are working in SF and fantasy.  A good number
of them are also in mystery and children's (or young-adult)
literature.

As for the acerbic attack on Lord of Light, I can only say you must
not have read it in the last few years; certainly the line you quote
doesn't appear in the book.  Not being a lit-crit bullshit artist,
I'm not interested in attempting a line-by-line defense of the book,
but it's one of my favorites.

The Ellison attack was shoddy, very shoddy.  The criticism of him
for putting forward a hip, witty, front, may be true of him in
person, and even of his non-fiction perhaps, but is completely
irrelevant to his fiction.

Apart from the differences on what constitutes a "believable"
character, I think a major source of argument is the relative
importance of plot and character to everything else (particularly
style, or "quality of writing").  To me, a good plot can sometimes
carry mediocre writing; but superb writing can never carry a dull
plot.  (unsatisfactory characters will ruin everything else no
matter what.)

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...!{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|purdue|shasta|utcsrgv}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb
Arpa: ddb%mrvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Easynet: Dyer-Bennet@KL2102, mrvax::ddb
Compuserve: 74756,723
AT&T/NYNEX: (617) 467-4076 (work)
            (617) 562-2130 (home)

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 04:36:55-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Space Opera

A few comments on "space opera":

(1) As previous messages have indicated, it comes from the term
"horse opera", which in turn comes from "soap opera", which came
about because most of the early Beautiful Daytime Dramas [tip of the
hat to Chuin, Reigning Master of Sinanju] were sponsored by laundry
soap manufacturers.

(2) I recall a review by John Clute (in an old issue of F&SF, but I
don't have the specific issue reference on hand) of THE MOTE IN
GOD'S EYE, in which he describes it in the terms of real, honest to
God opera.

(3) Consider that "opera" is also the plural for "opus" (and I don't
mean the penguin), as well as a particular form of music and drama.

(4) The original poster (Alastair Milne) mentioned only one "true"
space opera that he knew of. There are at least three others that I
know of without even thinking about it -- that is, if you aren't the
sort of purist who feels that opera can only use classical music,
and hence, that "rock opera" is a contradiction in terms:

BLOWS AGAINST THE EMPIRE (Jefferson Starship, 1970) is probably the
most well known, and was even nominated for a Best Dramatic
Presentation Hugo award. It has a sequel of sorts, THE PLANET EARTH
ROCK AND ROLL ORCHESTRA [or: THE EMPIRE BLOWS BACK] (Paul Kantner,
1982), which isn't really a true opera so much as just a collection
of songs with sf themes.

FLASH FEARLESS VS. THE ZORG WOMEN, PARTS 5 & 6 (Alice Cooper et
alia, 1975) is true to both the form of opera and the spirit of
space opera. And no, there aren't any Parts 1-4.

INTERGALACTIC TOURING BAND (Intergalactic Touring Band, 1977) is the
best of the three, in my opinion.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
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ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

<"Discography is just my goddamn hobby">

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jun 85 1033-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #192
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:

            Art - Cover Art For "The Will of the Gods",
            Books - Duane & Ellison (2 msgs) & Sharon Green &
                  Wyndham & Getting Your First Sale (3 msgs) &
                  Trade Paperbacks,
            Films - The Black Cauldron & 2001,
            Music - Sf in Music

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 May 85 15:42:45-PDT
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: The Will of the Gods
To: sf-lovers@RUTGERS.ARPA
Cc: blarson%ECLD@ECLA

The cover of "The Will of the Gods" gets my nomination for most 
inappropriate.  Not only do I have numerous minor nits to pick with 
it, (i.e. her clan covering is the wrong color) but this is the first
cover I remember seeing that one of the characters would have tried to
kill anyone who tried to get her into such an outfit.  (The cover
artist is Ken W. Kelley, but the art director deserves at least as
much blame (if not all the blame) for letting such a thing remain on
the cover.)

Bob Larson Arpa: Blarson@Usc-Ecl.Arpa Uucp:
ihnp4!sdcrdcf!uscvax!oberon!blarson

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@topaz.arpa (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Paperback "Door into Shadow"
Date: 19 May 85 20:14:43 GMT

> Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow"
> by Diane Duane this past week.  I was startled to find, when I got
> it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which
> will be released in August.  Is this something new, or have I been
> asleep?  I thought the usual way is to publish volume 1 first, and
> then follow it up with volume 2, not vice versa....
>
> Roy J. Mongiovi.

Sorry, but you must have misread that.  The _Door Into Fire_ is
already out, has been out for a couple of years.  _Door into Shadow_
is the sequel, and _Door into Fire_ has been re-released in a
rewritten version to correspond more closely with _Door into
Shadow_.  I believe there is a third book, _Door into Starlight_,
which is due out soon.

Ellen Eades

------------------------------

From: petfe!evan@topaz.arpa (Evan Marcus)
Subject: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 1 Jun 85 05:05:44 GMT

There's a movie appearing 4 times on The Movie Channel (at odd
times...VCR people take note) called A Boy and His Dog.  It is a
marvelous post-WWIII sci-fi flick, written by Harlan Ellison, and
starring Miami Vice's Don Johnson.  It is an ultimately bizarre but
wonderful movie, especially a certain line near the end.  It is
DEFINITELY worth watching if you like sci-fi movies.

Comes highly recommended.  Comments? Has anyone else ever seen this
one?

--Evan Marcus
{ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!evan
                         ...!pedsgd!pedsga!evan

------------------------------

From: sftri!rajeev@topaz.arpa (S.Rajeev)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 2 Jun 85 03:00:21 GMT

> There's a movie appearing 4 times on The Movie Channel (at odd
> times...VCR people take note) called A Boy and His Dog.  It is a
> marvelous post-WWIII sci-fi flick, written by Harlan Ellison, and
> starring Miami Vice's Don Johnson.  It is an ultimately bizarre
> but wonderful movie, especially a certain line near the end.  It
> is DEFINITELY worth watching if you like sci-fi movies.

> Comes highly recommended.  Comments? Has anyone else ever seen
> this one?
>
> --Evan Marcus
> {ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!evan
>                          ...!pedsgd!pedsga!evan

This is a midnight/college-circuit cult classic, and I think
deservedly so: the somewhat tongue-in-cheek post-holocaust scenario,
the talking dog (who for my money is the best character in the
movie, Don Johnson [so that's who that was] notwithstanding), the
decidedly motley crew led by Jason Robards that thrives underground,
and a menacing robot named Larry(?) -- folks, this is, bizarre as it
is, one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. And that classic line
at the end: one couldnt think of a more apt ending! I would rate
this a must-see.

...ihnp4!attunix!rajeev   -- usenet
ihnp4!attunix!rajeev@BERKELEY   -- arpanet
Sri Rajeev, SF 1-342, ATT Info. Sys.,
Summit, NJ 07901. (201)-522-6330.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 May 85 15:42:45-PDT
From: Bob Larson <BLARSON%ECLD@ECLA>
Subject: Sharon Green

I have enjoyed every book I have read by Sharon Green so far, and I 
belive that my set is complete.  This message is an attempt to point 
out her work to others who would enjoy it, and even to tell some 
others to avoid it.

The list of her novels:

Terrilian:

I The Warrior Within II The Warrior Enchained III The Warrior Rearmed

Jalav, Amazon warrior:

I The Crystals of Mida II An Oath to Mida III Chosen of Mida IV The
Will of the Gods

Diana Santee, Spaceways agent:

I Mind Guest

All are told from the point of view of a female main character, who 
gets into some difficult situations.  All involve sword fighting to 
some degree.  All have descriptions of sexual acts.  (Like I said 
above, they aren't for everyone.)  Most importantly, (in my opinion) 
all involve conflicts between societies and people, and have 
believable characters who don't understand everything instantly.  (All
the characters see everything not only colored by personal prejudice,
but also prejudice due to the society they were raised in.)

The Terrilian series seems complete as a trilogy, the Jalav series 
needs at least one more book, and I doubt there will be less than two
more in the Diana Santee series.  The Terrilian and Diana Santee 
series are called "Science fiction" while the Jalav series is called 
"fantasy", however I could argue the point.

Bob Larson Arpa: Blarson@Usc-Ecl.Arpa Uucp:
ihnp4!sdcrdcf!uscvax!oberon!blarson

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: Old Triffids paperback
Date: 31 May 85 10:28:14 GMT

> From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford       (Jeff Rogers)
> While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local
> library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of
> Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might
> it be the first PB edition of that novel?
>
> This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the
> Triffids," but with the original title in small print in
> parentheses on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy,
> with a triffid menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse
> only slightly concealed her torso.
>
> It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other
> copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by
> Crowell-Collier Publishing Co. Also on the copyright page was the
> note, "Originally published under the title 'The Day of the
> Triffids.'"
>
> Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his
> genius.

Flattery will get you anywhere.

The early publication history of DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, is as follows:

(1) COLLIER'S   1/6/51-2/10/51 (6-part serial)
(2) Doubleday   1951    (first US hardcover)
(3) M. Joseph   1951    (first UK hardcover)
(4) Popular Lib 1952    (first US paperback) [as REVOLT...]
(5) Penguin     1954    (first UK paperback)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:32:44 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Publisher & Editor Reviews...

>(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline and 
>sample chapters, *not* the whole novel.  You don't even need to >have
the novel finished.)

Sorry, but that's a bad piece of advice.  I only hope that you haven't
taken it already and suffered an unnecessary rejection.  When you have
five books or so out, then you can start thinking about sending
outlines.  Most of the writers I know, however, sent their first
novels complete.  When an editor knows for certain what he/she is
buying from you, ie, will it sell, they won't care (much) what it's
about.  James Hogan said (Baycon '85) that the only myth-making he
does these days is in the writing of his outlines; the subsequent
stories sometimes come out very differently.  Hogan, however, is an
acknowledged seller.  In addition, he sent HIS first novel in
complete.  Meanwhile, an editor can't be sure of what he/she's getting
on the basis of an outline and a few chapters unless he/she's seen
your work before.  Send the whole thing, with return postage (unless
you don't want it back), and hope for the best.  I'm marketing my
first novel, too.  (By the way, the above commentator was right about
stories -- having a short story of my own out does not seem to have
made much difference; what HAS is going to conventions.  Know your
editors and colleagues-to-be, get your face seen and your work heard
-- in that case, having a prior short story or two published is good,
as it gets you into cons as a guest and you can meet more people that
way).

Leigh Ann Hussey (lah@ucbmiro.BERKELEY (horatio@ucbmiro.BERKELEY)

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: selling your first novel
Date: 30 May 85 17:47:13 GMT

> From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) 
>>(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline 
>>and sample chapters, *not* the whole novel.  You don't even need 
>>to have the novel finished.)  > Sorry, but that's a bad piece of
advice.  I only hope that you > haven't taken it already and suffered
an unnecessary rejection.  > When you have five books or so out, then
you can start thinking > about sending outlines.  Most of the writers
I know, however, sent > their first novels complete.  When an editor
knows for certain > what he/she is buying from you, ie, will it sell,
they won't care > (much) what it's about.  > > Meanwhile, an editor
can't be sure of what he/she's getting on the > basis of an outline
and a few chapters unless he/she's seen your > work before.  Send the
whole thing, with return postage (unless > you don't want it back),
and hope for the best.  I'm marketing my > first novel, too.  (By the
way, the above commentator was right > about stories -- having a short
story of my own out does not seem > to have made much difference; what
HAS is going to conventions.  > Know your editors and
colleagues-to-be, get your face seen and > your work heard -- in that
case, having a prior short story or two > published is good, as it
gets you into cons as a guest and you can > meet more people that
way).  > > Leigh Ann Hussey

As the poster of that advice, I bow to your superior experience.  The
idea that going to cons and meeting editors helps sounds especially
right.

-Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Publisher & Editor Reviews
Date: 31 May 85 16:24:24 GMT

>From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) 
>>(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline 
>>and sample chapters, *not* the whole novel.  You don't even need 
>>to have the novel finished.)  > >Sorry, but that's a bad piece of
advice.  I only hope that you >haven't taken it already and suffered
an unnecessary rejection.  >When you have five books or so out, then
you can start thinking >about sending outlines.  Most of the writers I
know, however, sent >their first novels complete.

At the Editor's panel at Disclave last weekend, the editors all agreed
that they would consider an outline *first*, over a complete 
manuscript, and that they by far prefer to see outlines over 
manuscripts.

Now, if you are a new writer, the response to your outline may be 
"sounds good, can I see the whole manuscript when it is available?"

For some non-obvious reason, I forgot to put the editors's names into
my notebook, but they were from several big name companies like 
Berkely.
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:32:44 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Trade Paperbacks (the incipient flame)

"...those silly, oversized, overpriced "TRADE" paper editions!"  Well,
that's a matter of opinion.  There are many books out which one can
only get in trade paper, and are therefore well worth the price.  And
again, there are some books whose trade editions are better than the
mass-markets.  I'm thinking specifically of the Bluejay edition of
Mildred Downey Broxon's Too Long a Sacrifice.  Nice interior
illustrations, great centerfold painting (many of Bluejay's books have
them; why, though, didn't Door Into Fire have one as its companion
volume did?  Too bad...), reasonable cover, good binding (sewn in
signatures!)...  I could go on for days, just out of sheer pleasure in
Devil's Advocacy.  Besides that, incidentally, it's a very good book,
I recommend it (an Irish couple in the sixth century get involved with
the Sidhe, leave a fairy mound after a seeming year and find
themselves lost in modern- day Northern Ireland, separated.  And
something more than the usual conflict is afoot...  For those who say,
"Oh ye Gods, not another Northern Ireland book full of politics and
bloodshed and hungerstrikes," I say, read it.  You'll be surprised).

Leigh Ann Hussey (lah@ucbmiro.BERKELEY (horatio@ucbmiro.BERKELEY)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:32:44 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: The Black Cauldron

I have heard that it will be a glomming-together, in typical Disney 
fashion, of more than one of the books in the Chronicles of Prydain 
series.  I am hoping for the best, nonetheless -- those books are 
among my favourites.

Leigh Ann Hussey (lah@ucbmiro.BERKELEY (horatio@ucbmiro.BERKELEY)

------------------------------

From: tekecs!waltt@topaz.arpa (Walt Tucker)
Subject: Re: 2001'' -- a warning
Date: 30 May 85 16:02:55 GMT

> From: kevin%bach.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
> MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built
> into it!  This intermission is of course rather jarring to the
> flow of the movie.

This is not new.  When I saw 2001 on its second or third theatrical
release (1973?) the intermission was in the movie, also.  I believe
it occurs right after the scene where Frank and Dave are in the pod
and HAL is reading their lips.

Chances are this is just a remake of an old print.

                             -- Walt Tucker
                                Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 May 1985 14:47:19 EDT
From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: "Crown of Creation"

     The song "Crown of Creation" borrows from more than one sf
source, all without credit.  The later sections of the song, which
have the lyrics:
          "Life is change.  How it differs from the rocks.  I've
seen their ways too often for my liking. . . . My life is to survive
for you."  are, in fact, direct quotations from John Wyndham's short
novel "Re-birth".  Much of Kantner's science-fictional material
proves to be "borrowed", alas; this is just one of the worst-case
examples.

Dave Axler (Axler%UPenn-1100@csnet-relay)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jun 85 1050-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #193
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 193

Today's Topics:

                 Art - The Cover Art of Chris Foss,
                 Books - Decent Sf (2 msgs) & Editorial Changes &
                       SF Poll,
                 Films - 2001 & Dragonslayer & Rocky Horror,
                 Miscellaneous - The Problem With SF & Source Credit &
                       Comics vs Comix & Titles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: Cover Art (Chris Foss)
Date: 31 May 85 13:53:59 GMT

> From: yetti!oz
> For those of you who enjoy cover art as much as the contents of
> any SF book, check out Chris Foss. He is the one who appears on
> some of the British prints (Asimov: Currents_of_Space,
> Gods_by_themselves, Blish: Cities_in_flight to name a few..)  and
> draws spaceships that look like space trashcans....

I second the motion. Chris Foss is one of only two artists (Darrell
Sweet is the other) whose art on a book cover will guarantee my
buying the book. I almost bought one of his originals (for Zelazny's
FOUR FOR TOMORROW from Ace), but couldn't really spare the money
($200!) at the time.
        And his covers for the British paperbacks of the Foundation
series also fit nicely together to form one huge painting. I think
the CITIES IN FLIGHT boxed set (five paintings altogether --- a
wraparound on each book, plus a different wraparound on the box) are
my favorites though.

> (This is partly due to his excellent command of 3-D design, and
> attention to detail..  His work is never a quick air-brush washout
> with trivial touch-ups..)

Agreed. One of the things that grabbed me about the first cover
paintings of his I'd seen was the myriad and minute windows on his
spaceships, which made the ships look like they were miles long.

> A book of his artwork was published in late seventies, which
> contains most of his SF cover art as well as his earlier cover art
> for WW2 novels. (U know, the spitfires, U-boats, dogfights etc.)
> This book is a must for any SF cover-art lover.

Actually, his WWII novel cover paintings are no older than much of
his sf art. They grace the (British) paperbacks of most of the
thrillers by Geoffrey Jenkins, in addition to others.

But his most esoteric (from the viewpoint of an sf art lover) work
is the illustrations for THE JOY OF SEX. (No, I am *not* kidding ---
it *is* the same Chris Foss!)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

<"Artography is a silly word">

------------------------------

From: azure!michaelk@topaz.arpa (Michael Kersenbrock)
Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf?
Date: 30 May 85 05:20:43 GMT

There are at least several decent SF books availiable.  These
include a Brave New World, "1984", Farenheit 451, and the like.

More may come to mind with a bit of thought.

Does "Rearden Metal" (static power, etc) allow "Atlas Shrugged" to
count as SF?  Probably not, but then again....

Mike Kersenbrock
Tektronix Microcomputer Development Products
Aloha, Oregon

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!myers@topaz.arpa (Latitudinarian Lobster)
Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf?
Date: 2 Jun 85 00:26:55 GMT

> There are at least several decent SF books availiable.  These
> include a Brave New World, "1984", Farenheit 451, and the like.

My, fond of anti-utopias, aren't we?  I, for one, would hesitate to
classify any of these as SF.  Give me A.C. Clark any day.

Jeff M.

------------------------------

From: Tom Galloway <Galloway%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: New Asimov's Editor
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 85 23:30 EDT

It was announced at Disclave last weekend that Gardner Dozois is the
new Editor of Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine.  Shawna McCarthy is now
the Senior Editor at Bantam Spectra.

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: list of hottest authors, call for more books for SF Poll.
Date: 31 May 85 04:32:55 GMT

    Well the poll is going along famously, i've received over 200
distinct books (about 30 repeaters), written by about 75 authors in
15 mail messages. However i suspect i'm not getting much response
from the "grassroots". Many of the books recommended are esoteric in
some way (not that i have a problem with that - but this is supposed
to be a "canonical" list, that is a list which contains books which
an appreciable subset of you out there think *SHOULD* be read). The
reason why they should be read is immaterial - excellent story,
first use of some interesting idea, creator of a sub-genre,
superlative writing, etc. Ideally a canonical list of SF books
should contain all books which are in "most" people's collection (or
memory for that matter). So get those keyboards working and continue
to deluge me with responses.
    This is going to be a _monster_ of a poll.
        Greg.

    Here are the 15 most often cited authors so far (in alphabetical
order) try and guess the associated books (some authors have
several).

Asimov, Isaac
Asprin, Robert
Beagle, Peter S.
Brin, David
Clement, Hal
de Camp L. Sprague and Pratt, Fletcher
Eddings, David
Heinlein, Robert A.
LeGuin, Ursula K.
Niven, Larry
Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry
Tolkien, J.R.R.
Vance, Jack
Vinge, Joan D.
Wolfe, Gene

    Who's your favourite? And which book(s) did s/he write? How
would you classify the work?

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

From: cornell!jts@topaz.arpa
Subject: There was an intermission in 2001
Date: 1 Jun 85 20:49:09 GMT

> From: kevin%bach.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
> MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built
> into it!

Well, I saw 2001 when it was first released (lo these many years
ago, sigh), and it had an intermission back then, too.  It came just
after the scene where HAL reads Bowman's and Poole's lips through
one of the pod windows.

As I recall, it gave people a chance to become apprehensive about
what HAL might be up to, though I guess nowadays it isn't so
important.

Jim Sasaki (jts@cornell,
{decvax|ihnp4|uw-beaver|vax135|...}!cornell!jts)

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 85 23:29:00 PDT
Subject: RE: Dragonslayer - Long

On the question of the techniques used to animate Vermithrax
Pejorative.

>From _Cinefex_6_ page 33
...(Since ILM would be handeling effects for both _Dragonslayer_ and
_Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark simultaneously, the facility was devided
into two units.  Dennis Muren, Phil Tibbett and Ken Ralston became
the key dragon efects people, while Richard Edlund and another crew
worked primarly on _Raiders_.  Bruce Nicholson of the optical
department, Sam Comstock of animation, and a few others would devide
their time between shows.)

>From page 37
   The script described a beast forty feet long with a ninety-foot
wingspan.  That made for some heafty props: a sixteen-foot head and
neck; a twenty-foot tail; an arm-and-wing; and a huge claw.

>From page 38
[Referring to baby dragons]
"We had one," Barwood recalled, "that looked like an eagle chick -
tiny little flappy wings.  You couldn't even use it on Saturday
morning television it was so cute."

The flying dragon was done using Go-motion and a motion controlled
moving around a standard articulated dragon model.

On the other model, the one providing the walking shots, I refer to:
Page 42
     The entire six-unit complex rode on a motion controlled cart
which had eight feet of travel on a track.  Of nineteen stop-motion
motors included on the rig, sixteen could be under motion control at
one time.  In use, the dragon was perched above this contraption,
connected to each of the units by rods and, in effect, riding along
in midair.

The term Go-Motion was created to describe the new process of
introducing blurred movement to the stop motion animation.

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
crash!victoro@nosc
crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

From: microsoft!gordonl@topaz.arpa (Gordon Letwin)
Subject: Rocky Horror Video Tape
Date: 2 Jun 85 18:22:20 GMT

Recent submissions have suggested that those who want to see this
movie without the audience participation should rent the video tape.

I read, about a year ago, that the video tape of the RHPS *includes*
audience participation.  It is supposedly a tape of a *showing* of
RHPS at some east coast theater famous amoung RHPS fans.  Thus, it
shows the movie in the background with the audience in the
foreground, I presume.

I was disappointed to read this... I'd like to see the movie, but
have never gone to the theatre because I don't want to see "local
talent" strutting their stuff.

gordon letwin

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III
Date: 31 May 85 05:31:11 GMT

>               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
>     PART III: Self-Censorship And The Science Fiction Establishment

Our dear friend Davis Tucker has spent a lot of time (and a lot of
wordage, at that) attempting a literary criticism of the Science
Fiction Genre.  After wading through Part III, it is time to make
some comments of my own, mainly because I won't bother with part IV
or any future parts that he may decide to post. [I refuse to make
the comment that it was posted here because this was the only place
he could publish it without having to pay someone, but from the
quality of the criticism, I probably could. Ditto, of course, to
what I say here, but at least I'm concious of that fact.]

The comments that Davis made can be summed up into the following
generalized arguments:

    o if reading it is fun, it isn't literature

    o sf is a genre

    o genre's are not literature

    o if it isn't literature, it isn't good

    o I don't like it, so it CAN'T be good

Of all of his points, the last one is the only one that REALLY
matters, of course.

I won't try to refute him on a point by point basis. If you like SF,
the refutations will be intuitively obvious; if you agree with him,
nothing I can say will help.

One specific comment, though, ought to be addressed. 'Dr. Jeter' is
a book that is rather similar to 'The Tin Drum' by Gunter Grass. If
there is any reason for the Grass book to be published quickly when
the 'equivalent' book goes wanting, it is because Grass was an
established author. It is difficult for a publisher to justify a
book that doesn't have a demographic attraction, because that is
what pays their bills. If you have a very good but unusual book (of
which both qualify) then SOMETIMES the publisher will take a chance,
but only if he has enough in the budget. In the case of an
established author, you are less likely to have a complete bomb
because there is a known audience that is likely to buy anything
that the author publishes, so the risks are less. Hence, a good book
like 'Dr. Jeter' has a lot of strikes against it in the publishing
game, since there isn't a name recognition involved and since there
isn't a known audience and since the publisher may have to eat the
galleys for breakfast if he guesses wrong.

Just for reference, it is a LOT easier to get new works published in
the SF or Fantasy genre than anywhere else in publishing (excluding
self-publishing). My father has been trying to get a book bought for
a number of years, so far with no luck. The books are good, very
publishable, but mainstream, and getting a first book published out
there is almost impossible. He is starting to slant towards other
genre's now, because that seems to be the only way in. From my
discussions with authors, agents, and publishers, I feel that if he
had been working in this genre he would have been published long
ago. The publishers out there in the genre DO take chances, a lot
more often than other areas of publishing. They do this because the
readers support them by buying the new writers and supporting them
in taking chances. As an example of what it is like in the rest of
the world, there is a not-so-apocryphal story of a person who took
the final shooting script of 'Casablanca', retyped it under the
original name (Everybody Eats at Sams) and ships it off to 230
agents in the movie industry. Something like 60% returned it as not
professional or appropriate for the industry. Something like 15
recognized it as Casablanca. It's tough anywhere in publishing,
folks.

As a side note, the people who publish the Gor books not only
acknowledge that it is garbage, but have also pointed out that those
books make enough money to help support a number of other books on
their lists that would never have been contracted and published if
it wasn't for their subsidies.  They also pointed out that the Gor
books outsell most of the rest of their publishing lists in the
genre combined.

to have some winners to support a loser

Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 07:56:19-PDT
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack
From: anything you want with TECO and DDT)
Subject: proper source credit

> Was it Arthur C. Clarke or someone else who said that 90% of
> EVERYTHING is garbage?

It was Theodore Sturgeon.

Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 1985 18:01 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC>
Subject: Comix vs. Comics

>P.S. Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between "comics" and
>"comix"?

To my understanding,"comix" has been used to denote "comics" that
are very unsuitable for youngsters (many of them are unsuitable for
anyone).

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: Book (and movie) titles
Date: 31 May 85 12:54:08 GMT

> From: mtgzz!leeper    (Mark Leeper)
> This is one of my pet peeves with some science fiction writers.
> Back in the days of the Saturday afternoon serials they would give
> them flambouyant names line KING OF THE ROCKET MEN.  This would
> conjure up in kiddees' minds some society of rocket scientists
> somewhere and some super-scientist ruling over it.  Actually it
> was about one man with a rocket suit named Jeff King.  So the
> "rocket men" are all one man named King.  This title promises one
> sort of story and the film delivers something fairly different
> with the implicit statement "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood our
> title."

Funny you should use this example. I remember being similarly
surprised when I first saw the movie KING OF THE KHYBER RIFLES, and
found out that it was about a member of the Khyber Rifles named
Athelstan King. When I shortly thereafter came across the book, I
noticed that the title was originally KING--OF THE KHYBER RIFLES,
and also appeared as KING, OF THE KHYBER RIFLES. Subtle differences,
true, but the meaning is a little clearer with the punctuation.

However, I can't see that an author should be held responsible for
inferences you draw from the title. I recall an incident from when I
worked in a library. An elderly gentleman came in to return
Vonnegut's BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS, and asked, "Just from the title,
what would you think this book is about?" I replied that I couldn't
answer that fairly, since I already knew what it was about (even
though I hadn't read it). "Wouldn't you think it was about sports?"
he then asked. Seeing the association he was making, I replied, "I
suppose I might." "Well, it's nothing but a filthy, disgusting piece
of trash!" What could I say?

The only problem I have with titles is when the title has no bearing
whatsoever on the story. Take, for example, the latest Bond movie.
What does "A View to a Kill" have to do with the film at all?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jun 85 1111-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #194
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 3 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:

           Books - Heinlein & Smith & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                   Best SF Author & Cover Blurbs,
           Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: RAH's defense of Starship Troopers, etc.
Date: 30 May 85 17:12:58 GMT

I recall an anecdote many years ago, of a conversation between
Heinlein and well-known Los Angeles fan, Bjo Trimble.  Among other
things, Bjo is an SF and fantasy artist of great talent and
diversity.  In a discussion of whether stories reflect the specific
views of their author, Heinlein is said to have remarked,

"Bjo ... do people accuse you of being the things that you draw?"

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: bunkerb!mary@topaz.arpa (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Re: Re: space "operas"
Date: 31 May 85 12:19:13 GMT

> On the other hand, I have always thought of the space opera as
> characterizing that branch of SF where there is considerable
> action on a relatively large canvas. To me some of the most
> rewarding and enjoyable stories would bear the name space opera
> rather proudly. For example, Pattern for Conquest, by George O.
> Smith, is certainly a classic in the genre.  Probably all of the
> stories of the immortal E.E.Smith, PhD.  The Foundation Series by
> Asimov.  Star Wars Trilogy

I haven't read Pattern for Conquest, but I'll agree with you very
strongly on "Doc" Smith's work (the Lensman and Skylark series
epitomize space opera to me).  I have to disagree on The Foundation
Series, however.  While the environment is large, lots happens, and
it takes place over a long period of time, it is not characterized
by:
        A hero too good to be true (a la Kimball Kinnison)
        A hero's girlfried too good to be true (Clarissa MacDougall)
        Lots of space battles and blaster play (beams, rods, needles,
        and helices of force, plus trusty DeLameters)
        Supremely evil bad guys (what could be worse than a Plooran?)
        Space ships that get faster and more powerful with more
        outrageous weapons in each successive book/chapter.

The Foundation Series is much more idea-oriented than space opera,
and so does not qualify.

M. Shurtleff

------------------------------

From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar)
Subject: Re: Amber Waves etc (computers in SF)
Date: 23 May 85 18:11:06 GMT

> One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly reputable SF
> writers including their computers in a novel.  There is some of
> this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a better
> example.  I have an image of these guys being given a Trash-80 for
> their birthday and after a month or so the illness strikes.
> Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a computer whiz
> especially when the writer has only a superficial background to go
> on.

  Zelazny wrote "Coils" with Saberhagen (sp?) many moons ago, before
it was a craze. He also wrote "The Changling" and another one in the
same world. All three of these did a goo job of dealing with
technology, and "Coils" with computers specifically. I hope that you
were not grouping Zelazny in the "... writer has only a superficial
background...".  Though, I must admit, I was not too wild about the
Ghostwheel. But it was a bit more than your average computer :-)

David C. Kovar
USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber
ARPA:   davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk%amber@dartmouth

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom
Date: 31 May 85 19:58:08 GMT

> From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
> I'm certainly looking forward to the next one.  Does anyone know
> when it will be out?

The next one, probably called GHOSTWHEEL, is scheduled to be
delivered in October.  One could normally expect it to appear about
a year later, but TRUMPS came out five and a half months earlier
than scheduled, so we can hope.  I enjoyed the book a great deal,
too.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 85 15:59:25 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Best SF

Pete Williamson writes:
> In my opinion, James P. Hogan is one of the very best SF authors
> that I've ever read.  Principally, I think, because of his genuine
> knowlege of computers, science, and technologies.  Plus he spins a
> marvelous yarn at the same time.  Can't wait for his next.

Last night I read a short story by Gordon Eklund called "Vermeer's
Window".  (It's in Terry Carr's "Best SF of the Year #8".)  It's
about a man who has all known information about Jan Vermeer, the
enigmatic seventeenth-century artist, fed into his mind.  The man
spends his life being Vermeer, painting Vermeer's paintings, without
ever feeling the artist except as a force driving his hand and
brush.  The story (allegory, actually) is only thirteen pages long
and written in a simple yet beautiful style.  It made me think about
what I hope to accomplish with my life, about what creativity really
is; it even made me cry.

I see no distinction between being an author and being an SF author.
A great knowlege of science is no prerequisite for writing good SF
(look at the works of Philip Dick, for example).  James P. Hogan
puts a lot of accurate science into his books, and can spin a yarn,
but he has little skill at characterization or at putting any more
meaning than sheer adventure into his works.  Given the existence of
such stories as "Vermeer's Window", "The Beast that Shouted Love at
the Heart of the World", "The Persistence of Vision", and "Flow My
Tears, the Policeman Said", how can one call James Hogan one of the
best SF authors?

We may perhaps be arguing in circles here.  I freely admit to
enjoying Hogan's "Three Faces of Tomorrow", Harry Harrison's
"Stainless Steel Rat" series, and almost everything that Larry Niven
has ever written, but I don't call these great works, or their
authors great SF writers.  These books (along with most SF) are good
adventures, and I like them very much on that level.  Art, they are
not.
                                        --Peter Alfke
jpa144@cit-vax          until June 10th
(in limbo)              6/10 -- 6/30
alfke.pasa@xerox        July 1st onwards

------------------------------

From: microsoft!gordonl@topaz.arpa (Gordon Letwin)
Subject: support for cover blurbs
Date: 2 Jun 85 18:29:02 GMT

   Its true that cover blurbs are an annoyance because they tend to
be either inaccurate and/or spoilers.  However, you have to admire
the talent (sometimes) put into these things - in two short
paragraphs they're supposed to "hook" everyone that reads them..

   This reminds me of an old issue of MAD magazine, where an
interviewer is touring a publishing house.  The president stops
outside a door and says, "and in here is our most creative writer!"
It turns out to be the guy that writes the cover blurbs...

   The blurb the guy was currently working on was for an economics
textbook:

        "What strange law did Gresham force his women to obey?"

("gresham's law" (sp) is some principle of economics...)

Gordon Letwin

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II
Date: 29 May 85 15:17:04 GMT

> So, Dave, you're the canonical SF fan? There's plenty of 'lite'
> reading out there for people who are looking for something to
> shade their noses while they get a suntan; why should you resent
> those of us who are looking for something more? I could care less
> what you think of 'art for the sophisticate;' there are those of
> us who get the greatest enjoyment out of listening to classic
> jazz, looking at modern art, and reading well-written SF (oh, and
> by the way, the term 'sci fi' is an abomination).
>
> This interchange is addressing SF on one level; you obviously read
> it on another. If you don't like what we're saying, use your 'n'
> key.
>                           -- Hugs & kisses, Bill Ingogly

Me thinks you miss the point.  I am not OFFENDED by classic jazz,
modern art, "well written" SF (since you find sci fi such a cultural
abomination I will use your abreviation) etc.  Variety is the spice
of life and enriches all of us, I have probably read and enjoyed
some works that even the author of the original posting would
consider acceptable.  What I disagreed with was the haughty tone of
the posting that was criticizing all of us who like to read the
perhaps less sophisticated SF (I DO like Zimmer-Bradley and
McCaffrey and no doubt alot of others the author would detest)
because it is limiting their evolution or recognition of authors of
which the author approves.  The relation I was making here was that
modern art fans often sneer at Classic art, classic jazz people
disdain fusion.  Personally, I don't sneer or disdain modern art,
classic jazz, the "well written" SF I just don't generally like
them.  Obscure authors are frequently that way because their
material is simply not written such that it is accessable to most
people.  Criticizing the people because they don't like the work
instead of recognizing that the author's style has limited his
market is just plain ridiculous.  If you want recognition write what
the critics like, if you want sales write what the masses like,
anything else will address some sub-spectra of the populace.  Just
because the masses don't side with your sub-spectra doesn't make
them wrong or you right, we are talking reality here, grow up.

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 85 10:06:30 EDT
Subject: the problems of SF, and quality writing
From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa

While browsing in the bookstore the other day, I noticed that
Umberto Eco (author of _The Name of the Rose_, an interesting
medieval fantasy, and paradigmatic semiotician) called Samuel
Delaney ``The most interesting writer working today.''

Also, in writing about the problems of SF, you rely too much on
anecdotal evidence: maybe the SF YOU read is lacking in
characterization, plot, etc., but that's just because your horizons
seem to be limited: maybe you've been going to too many cons.

CJ Cherryh, Samuel Delaney, W Gibson, John Ford, Stanislaw Lem, UK
LeGuin, are all exceptions to your generalizations about SF.  Had
you dwelt on them instead of the writers of juvenile SF like Asimov,
Clarke, etc., I think your essays would have a much different tone
(does anyone over the age of, say, 18 read Asimov?).

Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I am reminded of the remarks _The
New Republic_ had to make about the infamous _Newsweek_ Yuppie
issue: _Newsweek_ had to look real hard to find those dozen yuppies
who so fit their preconceptions.  Had they chosen, they could have
gone out and found a dozen still-active activists to serve as
evidence for a special issue on ``Survivors of the Sixties: still
caring, still growing.''  I think all of your essays have been
guilty of much the same crime.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Jun 85 10:31:00 EDT
Subject: sf and the critics
From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa

Someone, in discussing ``the problems of SF'', mentioned the ``poor,
misunderstood SF'' syndrome: the critics don't take SF seriously, so
they ignore it; and pointed out that it wasn't true anymore--that
literary critics DO take a lot of SF seriously.

MOVIE Critics, on the other hand...

I've seen a number of SF films which I considered quite good
(excellent when judged by SF's standards, acceptable when judged by
what meager standards of the Filmic Arts I'm able to apply to
movies): ``Something Wicked this way comes'' (perhaps the finest
portrayal of a novel as a film I have EVER seen), ``Brainstorms''
and ``Dreamscape'' (two movies which, had they been literature,
would have been acceptable short stories, and which I think serve as
evidence that, in film at least, one word is worth a thousand
pictures), ``Android'', which have been panned by the critics, get
tiny amounts of promotion, and close in a week.

Critics look at these films, and say, ``Oh, this is Science
Fiction'', turn off significant parts of their brains, and then
write a review that says: ``It wasn't _Star Wars_'' (meaning, it
wasn't ``good'' by the same measure of ``good'' that one applies to
conclude that _Star Wars_ was Real Good).  The films don't get any
promotion to speak of, and aren't around long enough (at least here
in Boston) for word-of-mouth to do them any good, so they vanish
from the face of the earth.  Result: good SF movies lose out to
_Star Wars_ clones, where special effects substitute for ideas.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I
Date: 31 May 85 22:25:46 GMT

chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>To start with, it is possible to generate a list at least as long
>of BAD mainstream writers as it is to generate a list of good
>mainstream writers.  It is ALSO possible to generate a list of
>writers, both good and bad, in SF, in mystery, romance, or any
>genre. This proposition is intuitively obvious to anyone who has
>studied Sturgeons Law, which also, I should add, is appropriate to
>postings to sf-lovers, and probably to this posting.

Go back and read both my responses to the original postings (part I
and part II). I made precisely these points.

>What I see here is an attempt to define mainstream by the best of
>the best and compare it with the worst of the best in the SF genre,
>and that's apples and oranges, folks. Sure, Ellison has clinked out
>at times,

Again, read my postings. I clearly state that what I'm responding to
is not the claim that there are excellent writers in SF, but that
MOST OF THE BEST WRITERS ARE IN SF. I don't take kindly to this kind
of misrepresentation of what I've said.

>but Mailer and Capote and the rest have tossed out some outrageous
>and/or self-indulgent stuff as well. If you want to get into the
>second rank (and rank is an appropriate word for some of this
>stuff) in the mainstream, look to sydney sheldon and friends.

I stated in my posting that I agreed 100% with Steve Brust's
comments about Mailer and Capote. And read my comment on Sidney
Sheldon in net.books a few months ago for my feelings on THAT hack.

>What DOES matter is this: the best of the mainstream work is very
>good. The best of the genre stuff (even in romance) is very good.
>I'll hold up 'When Jefty is five' or 'Adrift of the Isles of
>Langerhans' or Wolfe's New Sun books or any number of other genre
>works against the works of a Capote or a Mailer. I'll also throw
>away the garbage of both, very happily.

Again, you've misinterpreted what I've said, or you haven't read all
three of my postings. You may judge them differently if you do so.

>Lots of people DO stay in their neighborhood, and there is
>absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would like to point out,
>however, that there IS

But there's certainly something wrong with making negative
statements about life outside your neighborhood when you know little
about it and haven't taken the time to acquaint yourself with the
people who inhabit it.

Please reread what I've said; you may find that my opinion of SF is
not as bleak as you seem to think, and that there's not as much to
disagree with in my postings as you may think.

                               -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jun 85 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #195
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 4 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 195

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brust & Dickson & Gardner &
                        Paxson & Zelazny,
                Films - DefCon 4 & Ladybug & Rocky Horror,
                Music - More SF in Music,
                Television - The Prisoner
                Miscellaneous - Space Opera & Sequels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sdcsla!west@topaz.arpa (Larry West)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (I liked it)
Date: 2 Jun 85 09:41:32 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>> Back in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that
>> Milton drew upon but a single line in the Bible to weave his
>> original tale.  You see, in the elder days, Lucifer
>> (light-bringer) was the name given to the morning star. And some
>> biblical person (a king?)  glanced up at the morning stars and
>> espying Lucifer says something like, "O mighty Lucifer, how far
>> thou hast fallen from heaven."  The king(?) was simply refering
>> to the nearness of the dawn, but Milton took this line and based
>> the entire mythos of the heavenly revolt upon it...
>>
>> Dennis L. McKiernan
>
>Thanks.  Your information is more complete than mine.  It is true
>that the above mentioned quote is the way that Lucifer became
>associated with Satan, but I didn't know that Milton was the
>instrument of this.  I had assumed the mistake to have been made
>before his time.

Actually, I think this is a simplification of the story.  Lucifer
does indeed mean "light-bringer", and indeed was the name given to
the "morning star".  However, in the specific situation that the
quote is from, it is refering to a nearby monarch (one who was
dominating the Jews), one of whose titles was Lucifer, in the sense
mentioned here.  It was, however, impolitic to insult such a
powerful neighbor directly.

Reference: Asimov's Guide to the Old Testament.

(Sorry, I don't have it at hand -- otherwise I'd be more specific.)

Larry West
Institute for Cognitive Science
UC San Diego (mailcode C-015) [x6220]
La Jolla, CA  92093  U.S.A.
(USA+619-)452-6220
ARPA: <west@nprdc.ARPA>
UUCP: {ucbvax,sdcrdcf,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcsla!west OR
      ulysses!sdcsla!west

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 85 18:43:00 EST
From: <theo@ari-hq1>
Subject: Gordon R. Dickson's ultimate sequel

I've just finished
                       THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA
                       (pub. date is Oct.'84)

and I thought I should celebrate by letting everyone know! Given all
the discussion about hack writing and sequelmania, I feel as if I
ought to examine this novel accordingly. Fortunately for those of
you who don't appreciate reams of convoluted analysis (which I'm
unable to produce in the first place), I haven't quite got a handle
on all the elements.

    I haven't sorted out all my thoughts yet about this 680+ page
book which is the capstone of Dickson's history/chronology known as
the "Childe" series. On the other hand, I cannot resist making a few
comments and asking a few questions that more knowledgeable
net.readers can answer.

    - I liked it. My interest seldom flagged. There was plenty
      of action. The plot moved along. Now, how I would rate it is
      still up in the air.  (This book certainly more than made up
      for my last attempt at reading an sf novel, the 3rd DUNE
      book.)

    - I don't think I'm as moved by THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA as I was
      by SOLDIER, ASK NOT. Certainly, the title, alone, is less
      dramatic.  TFE stands by itself quite well, although it does
      make references to earlier works such as S,AN or NECROMANCER.

    - I appreciated the fact that some of the characters were not of
      typical European stock, however I occasionally wondered about
      the subtle dominance of white (Caucasian) characters and
      attitudes/thought. (That leads me to wonder whether Japanese
      sf, for example, is consistently different in any way.)

    - Sandra (?) Miesel's analysis of the novel starts on the very
      next page after the story ends. It ranges from describing the
      nature of the relationships between the hero and the female
      protagonists he met on various planets, to comparing the
      good-guy-vs.-bad-guy duality with religious/mystical figures
      and philosophy.

    - Has anyone else read this book? (BTW, I picked this up at the
      library.)

Well, 'nuff said.
                         THE_One and only!

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 85 21:10:10 EDT
From: Dave <Steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Craig Shaw Gardner

Does anyone know anything about a Craig Shaw Gardner?  I read a
story of his in Flashing Swords #5. It was about a sorcerer named
"Ebenezum".  I found it a rather amusing story and have been looking
for other things by him but have never seen anything.  Anybody know
if he has written anything else?

thanks,
ds
uucp:   {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steiner
arpa:   Steiner@RUTGERS

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  3 Jun 1985 14:27:59-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Diana L. Paxson

Why haven't I read anything on Diana Paxson on this net?

I recently picked up the Wings of Omen and read a short story of
hers, A Breath of Power. I was impressed enough to go looking for
other works by her. I found (new on the stands) a novel,
Brisingamen. Again, I am very impressed by her style and the way she
holds my attention.

Is she new to the field? Or has she been around (in cognito) for
awhile?  Has she written anything else?  (quickly, I'm almost
finished with Brisingamen)

Thanks!!!!

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  3 Jun 1985 17:05:05-PDT
From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
To: jlr%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: re: attacks on "Lord of Light"

Bill Ingogly writes:

"The dialogue, characterization, and narrative in Lord of Light and
Creatures of Light and Darkness are amateurish; consider the clumsy
and stilted passages where Mahasamatman (sp? I don't own the book
any longer and haven't read it for some years) 'heroically' names
himself for us mortals' benefit: "...Some call me Sam, and most call
me ham, but you can call me Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this
believable or well-done? ..."

True, that is a stilted passage, but Zelazny didn't write it.  The
correct quote is:

"His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god.  He
preferred to drop the Maha- and -atman and called himself Sam."

which sounds considerably better.  It's on the cover blurb for the
novel.

What's odd here is not the faulty quotation, but that Ingogly goes
on to suggest that SF readers do a detailed comparison of "Lord of
Light" with V. S. Naipaul's "A Bend in the River".  This will show
the superiority of a mainstream writer's powers of characterization
and dialogue.  Why should we do the comparison when Ingogly
obviously hasn't?  How can he say that Naipaul is a better writer
when he doesn't even remember Zelazny's cover blurb?  In any case,
it's weird to compare "A Bend in the River", the story of an
alienated Indian shopkeeper in an African town, to Zelazny's mixture
of class warfare and mythology.  Their themes, settings, plots,
characters, and audiences have nothing in common.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Jun 85 10:57:00-EDT
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: DEF CON 4 Review, NOT a spoiler

My 2 friends and I saw DEF CON 4 Friday night ('Fletch' was sold
out).

Nanoreview: Morbid

Microreview: A very bad movie, bad acting, poor effects, stupid plot
             being used as a vehicle to be morbid and sick.

I did something that I have never done before - walk out on a movie.
I lasted about 15 minutes more than my 2 friends and about 1/4 the
audience who also walked out.

With some handwaving, I was able to get free tickets out of it for
us to see 'Fletch' the next night (We all enjoyed it very much).

I refuse to discuss any plot details of DEF CON 4 (I might become
ill), but I will say that the previews and ads are misleading to the
point of being a crime.  Only a disturbed/sick person would enjoy
it.

Gern

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: LADYBUG, LADYBUG
Date: 9 Jun 85 06:56:44 GMT

                          LADYBUG, LADYBUG
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Actually, I am a little surprised that this 1963 film has been
so totally forgotten, even if it isn't the best anti-nuclear war
film ever made.  The story if of a school that gets a Conelrad alarm
telling it that the U.S.  is about to be attacked by nuclear
weapons.  The story follows the children's reactions to the news
that a nuclear war is coming.  While--as we are told in the
credits--the story is based on an actual incident (so much for
suspense as to whether the alarm is real or not), the children
clearly are meant to be in an allegorical sense everybody living
under the threat of the Bomb.  The children clearly mouth adult
lines rather than talk about nuclear war the way children would.

     The film does rather effectively show how people looked at
nuclear war in the Sixties.  Various groups of children react
differently.  Some panic, some protectively take care of loved ones,
some become ruthless survivalists.  The problem with the story is
that too much of the film is spent showing the principal of the
school (William Daniels) deciding to send the children to their
homes and then showing a school teacher marching the students to
their homes.  These scenes are dull on the literal level and do not
advance the allegorical meanings of the film.  LORD OF THE FLIES,
made that same year, does a much better job of integrating its
literal and allegorical meanings.  All too often the film tries to
make overly sentimental statements by having characters wallow in
self-pity.  THREADS effectively demonstrates that nuclear war is bad
without ever appearing self-indulgent, as LADYBUG, LADYBUG often
does.

     LADYBUG, LADYBUG probably went unnoticed in 1963 because it did
not have the star-power that ON THE BEACH had, and it is not seen
now because most of its points have been made better elsewhere.
Still, placed in an historical perspective, it deserves to be seen
just to illustrate public sentiment toward the Bomb in the Sixties.
It might make an interesting double feature with ATOMIC CAFE.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 12:03 EDT
From: Thomas Whitaker <whit@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #191

>>From: warwick!asz@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter)
>>>brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>>> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits
>>> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits
>>> of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on
>>> video, I'd like to try and jog my memory.
>>>              Alan
>>
>>I, for one, will not.  RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it
>>was destroyed by the audience participation.
>
>Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience
>participation).  Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy
>the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same
>without audience participation - it is essential to the whole ethos
>to have the participation.
>                                           Alex
>                               mcvax!ukc!ubu!snow!asz

The stage production ran in London about seven years ago at the
King's Road Theater.  The film and stage productions were true to
each other (which came first is not clear to me).  However, as a
true fan of the film, I was sorely disappointed by the stage
production.  Reason: No audience participation!!  Lots of laughter
but not much else.  One hilarious exception: When Janet says "Well,
I don't like a man with too many muscles.", a man in the front row
yelled out "I do!" and Frank congratulated him.  The other highlight
was at the end of the show when xeroxed copies of the steps to do
the Time Warp showered down from the ceiling.  I keep it pressed in
my book of memories.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  3 Jun 1985 07:55:41-PDT
From: winalski%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Triad

This song, which mentions "water brothers," appears on the Jefferson
Airplane album "Crown of Creation" and also on the Crosby, Stills,
Nash and Young album "Four-Way Street."  The song was co-written by
Paul Kantner of the Airplane and David Crosby of CSN&Y.  The
reference to Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land is very clear.
SiaSL was extremely popular at the time that "Triad" was written.

--PSW

------------------------------

From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz.arpa (iannucci)
Subject: The Prisoner mailing list
Date: 31 May 85 19:00:07 GMT

    Well, people, I have advertised in the past for the Prisoner
mailing list, but this is the last time.  There never seemed to be
enough interest on the net to warrant even using the net, much less
creating a newsgroup, and we have nine people on the list so far.
Our first topic is the fate of No.2.  Where do they come from?
Where do they go when they get pulled out of the Village?

    If you have an interest in joining the group, just mail me.

If I could walk THAT way...

Dave Iannucci @ St. Joseph's University,
Philadelphia [40 00' N 75 15' W]
{{ihnp4|ucbvax}!allegra|{psuvax1}!burdvax|astrovax}!sjuvax!iannucci

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 20:29:41 pdt
From: Berry Kercheval <kerch@lll-tis-b>
Subject: Space Opera

I can think of several more Honest-to Verdi SF operas.  Janacek did
one called "The Adventures of Mr. Broucek" in which Mr. Broucek goes
to the moon; I have sung in a production of this.  Also, when I was
an undergrad at UC Riverside, one of the Grad students in the Music
department did an adaptation of "The Martian Chronicles" -- I forget
her name but can look it up if anyone is really interested.  Weber
wrote one called something like "the Bobolinks",A I know little more
than the fact that the score is one of the few "serious" musical
works to call for a theremin.

berry Kercheval
kerch@lll-tisb.ARPA   or  berry@zehntel.UUCP

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 22:28:36 PDT
Subject: Sequels

>A readership that wants a sequel to every novel. . .

     There is an implication here that there is something
automatically wrong with series, trilogies, series, and so on.  If a
series of whatever length is desired and enjoyed, it is because the
writer has created a character, a society or a concept that has
captured the imagination of readers.  If the point of interest is
not covered in detail from beginning to end, there may very well be
an interest in more.  The fact that the author may have intended
this from the beginning does not change the validity of the concept.
The market will decide if the writer is correct or not.
     Sometimes a series should have stopped at one.  Sometimes not.
I've never heard anyone suggest that Asimov should have stopped with
_Foundation_.  I'm glad that Steven Brust gave us more than one
novel on the life and times of Vladimir Taltos.  (On the other hand,
many people have said that Herbert *should* have quit after _Dune_.)

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Jun 85 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #196
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 4 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 196

Today's Topics:

         Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV
Date: 2 Jun 85 03:34:24 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCCE FICTION TODAY
           PART IV: Fantasy, Or How To Hack A Hobbit And
                 Build A Balrog In One Easy Lesson

                          by Davis Tucker

Whether we want to admit it our not, science fiction includes
fantasy, though given the preponderance of fantasy titles on the
shelves, the casual viewer might wonder which is the baby and which
is the bathwater. Fantasy has long been to science fiction as
science fiction has been to mainstream literature: I think we can
all draw the comparison. But fantasy has its own problems and faults
and foibles, many common with science fiction, many unique, and
these are dragging it down into a muck of mimicry and mediocrity,
where once again the same old themes get repeated time and time
again. What's even more annoying about fantasy is that much too
often, the same *characters* get repeated from author to author.
I've lost track of the number of Gandalf clones I've come across,
the hordes of Hobbit lookalikes, elves and trolls, etc., and of
course what is most odious and just plain silly, the squadrons of
stupid dragons that seem to jump from every page whenever an author
paints himself or herself into a figurative corner and has to throw
a reptilian red herring across the reader's face... grrrrrrr.

Had J. R. R. Tolkein known what he was spawning when he wrote his
books, good English gentleman that he was, he most likely would have
burned every one of them rather than perpetrate upon the world the
monstrous assault upon good taste that has arisen in the wake of his
success.  Just as if Dr. Frankenstein had seen into the future, to
see what he was going to unleash... Tolkein's works are finely
crafted, well-written, and show an understanding of that element of
mythos which is essential to good fantasy. It is not enough in
fantasy to build a delightful escapism from the real world of meter
maids, Type A behavior, and taxes. You have to do something with it.
And precious few of his imitators have bothered to understand and
explicate that gut-level need in every human being for good against
evil and magic against all with any more subtletly and finesse than
a Ginsu knife commercial.

What distinguishes good fantasy from the mediocre? The same thing
that distinguishes good literature from mediocre literature of any
kind. The additional factors are interest, environment, mythic
consistency, and probably most important, the ability to inspire in
the reader that willing suspension of disbelief which is so
necessary to any fiction, but vital to fantasy. What is usually
lacking in the fantasy novels ground out today is readable dialogue
and character motivation, which go hand-in-hand with silly plots.
Why is it that every fantasy novel is about some quest for a magic
sword or a magic rock? Why is it that every fantasy novel has a
wizard who's a little scatterbrained and a little malefic, but who's
still a good guy? And various little characters who prance and
gambol about his feet and end up getting the job done under
impossible odds (and usually without much food, either). The
traditional plot-line seems to go as follows - protagonist is
enjoying/hating his daily life in some paradise/hell.  Protagonist
discovers secret sword/manuscript, or alternatively it comes into
his hands from some wizard/old crone. Protagonist decides, "hey -
let's go on a quest, guys!" and gathers together a company of
friends or acquaintances or magical beings (notice that the
"company" idea is always used). After this, they run afoul of the
bad guys and lose a few buddies and have a few swordfights, get lost
in some caves, and use their magical resources. The wizard usually
gets lost around this point, going off to fight some battle of his
own, thus pounding the point home that good deeds can be
accomplished without magic. Well, a lot of stuff happens, a lot of
fancy fairy palaces get described, and our protagonist and his pals
finally get to the end of the trilogy and have a climactic showdown
and get the magic sword and then everybody lives happily ever after
except if you want to write a second trilogy, in which case you
leave the bad guys alive.

Subtlety is thrown out the window. It is a rare fantasy novel indeed
which introduces a fair amount of grey area between good and evil,
which concerns itself with that fine gradation which makes some of
us heroes, some of us good men, some of us cowards and malcontents,
some of us fanatics, some of us inscrutable. If you've ever read the
original Brothers Grimm tales, you'd see that it is precisely this
balance and dichotomy in each person's soul which is so wonderfully
exhibited, and what makes them so challenging and disturbing. In
much of ancient mythology, this greyness, this almost existentialist
world of petty gods and danger at every door, is put forth with more
power and beauty and humanity than most fantasy today.  Jason wasn't
exactly the nicest guy in the world, and Ulysses had some serious
problems himself. Happy endings do not always, and should not always
occur. Fantasy is not exempted from dealing with inevitable truths
just because it's make-believe.

Homer did all this thousands of years ago, and without a wizard.
You'd think somebody would have improved on at least the basic plot
outline in that time. The Brothers Grimm did a damn good job.
"Pinocchio" has more meat and substance and mythical elements than
the Darkover novels. Once again, as with science fiction, the
readers and authors have entered into this incestuous relationship
that perpetrates infinite loops of the same story. The Thomas
Covenant books started off with promise, and an interesting premise
- that a leper is fundamentally different in his world-view from you
and me. But fifty pages or so into the first book, the ten warning
signs of mediocre fantasy start screaming at you. Giants, evil
wizards, etc., etc., etc. And by the time you finish the first
three, there's this horrible realization that this is a story that
can and will go on forever.  And that you will continue to watch the
English language be butchered and bent for no purpose, and that you
will read the word "rue" on every page.  It seems that especially in
fantasy, even more than in science fiction, that nobody knows when
to call it quits, take the money and run. Every author seems to go
to the well once too often, because it takes less work to put old
characters through the same old paces than it does to come up with
someone and something new.

Fantasy suffers from cuteness these days, a horrible terminal
cuteness best exemplified in Robert Athprin'th "Lithp Myth" books.
It also suffers from being trite. Without a raised standard for
fantasy writing, instead of such drivel as "The Sword Of Shannara"
held up as a shining light, dire consequences will result. Even the
worst of Michael Moorcock is better than this insult to the
intelligence. For every fantasy novel like Orson Card's "Hart's
Hope", we have a thousand like "Camber The Heretic".

Well, that's all for today. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF
SCIENCE FICTION, PART V: Rays Of Hope Through The Clouds Of
Despair".

------------------------------

Date: Mon 3 Jun 85 01:14:06-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: criticism

Bill Ingodly writes:

> How many of the following authors have you read, for example;
> Jorge Amado, John Barth, Donald Barthelme, Saul Bellow, Thomas
> Berger, T. Coraghessan Boyle, Italo Calvino, Robert Coover, Don
> DeLillo, Joan Didion, Jose Donoso, Stanley Elkins [sic], Carlos
> Fuentes,
>
> In what way are the best writers in SF more numerous or better
> writers than these mainstream people? We're talking superior
> craftsmanship here, things like real dialogue by real people,
> little things I find infrequently in much SF.

I've recently read _Invisible_Cities_ (Calvino); saying that it had
either characters or dialogue is an act of considerable generosity.
(It is virtually pure structure, more like an abstract painting than
a novel; recommended, but *NOT* for personality.)  Didion's
_A_Book_Of_Common_Prayer_ was somewhat better, in that the dialogue
captured the characters -- but if the characters were real, they
were not especially sane; neither did many of their actions make
sense.  They were more plausible before I started then after I
finished.

Other books, further in my past, had realer dialogue and characters;
but it does not seem strange to me that the two I've read most
recently don't.

> because Zelazny doesn't really believe in these characters.  I
> challenge the best of you out there to care about a character and
> bring him or her to life for your readers when you yourself have
> no faith in your own characters or any real interest in them other
> than as devices to carry the plot along!

I can't read Zelazny's mind, except such of it as he broadcasts.  It
seems to me that he does care about his characters.  Ignoring
internal evidence in his books, he writes stories about the same
characters and _doesn't_ try to publish them -- except once, in a
short story collection which I can't find [help?], when he published
one.  This doesn't quite sound like a sign of intense apathy to me.
Again, Mahasamatman strikes me as a more believable character than
any in the Calvino, Didion, or Elkin I've read recently.

> "...Some call me Sam, and most call me ham, but you can call me
> Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this believable or well-done?

If you had read _Lord_Of_Light_ recently, I would flame at you for
not checking your parody-quotation.  Sam doesn't say it; it's
description and thus believable. It appears in the first and last
chapters. Things being as they are, it foreshadows and summarizes
the novel, sketching in a few sentences Sam's personality and the
important conflicts and their resolution, and placing the novel in a
frame.  Very well-done.

Zelazny's works in general concern rather unusual characters: gods,
Princes of Amber, and other people who wield intense personal power
-- power derived from their personalities.  He describes how such
power alters these people, from causing them to become mature (e.g.
Sam, Corwin) to destroying them (Dr.  Render in "He Who Shapes").
Such people are rare (-8 except for Unix wizards 8-), but are
certainly valid characters for SF.  Real enough for you?

> Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people...

I hereby allow you, or encourage you, to stop reading SF.

With excessive flame,
   Bard

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Literary vs SF genres
Date: 31 May 85 22:50:03 GMT

ddb@mrvax.DEC writes:
>Indeed, I haven't read most of the authors listed, and it's
>possible that I may try some of them and perform the comparisons
>suggested (GOOD suggestions on how to compare books, by the way).

Good. I enjoy most of the authors on my own list of mainstream
authors, and consider my posting a success if I've gotten a few
people to at least CONSIDER reading some of these authors (many of
whom are just as hungry as your average SF author, by the way) ...

>and in school I've tried a moderate amount of what various people
>at various times thought was good literature (literary genre, as
>opposed to best-seller genre; there is no "mainstream" any more),
>and I thought it stunk, for exactly the reasons various people are
>criticizing SF: unbelievable characters, bad dialogue.  So I'm not
>enthusiastic about diving back into the swamp for another go.

Hmmm... I realized after posting my article that it may have
overstated my point a bit. In another posting on this subject I
quoted the SF author (I said Clarke, but it was Sturgeon) who said
90% of EVERYTHING is garbage, so I agree with you to a certain
extent. Also, tastes in literature certainly vary. Don't give up on
non-SF literature because you've had some bad experiences with it
(geez, I said the same thing to a non-SF fan who couldn't see what
all the fuss was about SF recently...). You might try Italo Calvino,
Jorge Luis Borges' Ficciones, Doris Lessing's Briefing for a Descent
into Hell, maybe Thomas Pynchon's V or Crying of Lot 49.

I also overstressed dialogue and characterization in my posting; not
all good writers stress dialogue or characterization, and there are
some on my list whose characters are stylized to a greater or lesser
degree (Thomas Pynchon and Ishmael Reed, for example). Gravity's
Rainbow, for example, reads at times like a Zap comic book. An
acquired taste, I suppose.

>Those of you espousing the literary genre as a religion should note
>that many of us in the other camp feel at least as strongly.  I
>wouldn't say that most of the best writers today are working in SF
>and fantasy.  A good number of them are also in mystery and
>children's (or young-adult) literature.

If you go back to my posting, you'll find that my main beef was with
exactly this statement; of course there are good writers in these
genres, and there are good writers who don't fit comfortably in any
genre or who work in several genres.

>As for the acerbic attack on Lord of Light, I can only say you must
>not have read it in the last few years; certainly the line you
>quote doesn't appear in the book.  Not being a lit-crit bullshit
>artist, I'm not interested in attempting a line-by-line defense of
>the book, but it's one of my favorites.

I haven't read it in some years, but the negative feelings stem from
my analyses in the years since (I read it twice ten years ago). The
line I quote is a parody of the actual line in the book; I think
it's near the end of the book as well as the beginning. There are
books I'm fond of that I'm sure many people wouldn't wipe their
noses with. One of the things I wanted to get across is that one
person's favorite writer may well be another's least favorite (I
HAVE read Madwand by Zelazny recently, and felt it was a disaster).
The statement that most of the best writers today are working in the
SF genre offended me, because I know it's simply NOT TRUE. If there
are no sacred cows in so-called mainstream fiction, there certainly
are none in SF. I honestly don't believe Zelazny or Ellison rank
among the best SF writers working today, though I liked Zelazny a
great deal ten years ago and have since changed my mind through
reflection on his work as I remember it. I certainly plan to reread
it now, to see if my feelings are warranted. And I certainly think
no less of anyone who's a rabid Zelazny and/or Ellison fan.

>The Ellison attack was shoddy, very shoddy.  The criticism of him
>for putting forward a hip, witty, front, may be true of him in
>person, and even of his non-fiction perhaps, but is completely
>irrelevant to his fiction.

I see the same hip, witty front in his fiction, unfortunately, from
his snappy titles ("Shattered Like A Glass Goblin;" "The Beast Who
Shouted Love etc.") to his slick prose. Ellison's fiction fairly
drips trendiness, but I can't offhand say why it bothers me so. It
seems urban and urbane in a very superficial way to me; consider,
for example, "Shattered Like A Glass Goblin," which shows Ellison's
knowledge of the '60s counterculture lifestyle and is a 'clever'
story. But if you strip away all the trendiness and knowledge of the
counterculture, what's left? A rather ordinary horror story. Sorry,
I still find Ellison overrated.

>Apart from the differences on what constitutes a "believable"
>character, I think a major source of argument is the relative
>importance of plot and character to everything else (particularly
>style, or "quality of writing").  To me, a good plot can sometimes
>carry mediocre writing; but superb writing can never carry a dull
>plot.  (unsatisfactory characters will ruin everything else no
>matter what.)

I agree 100%. Just as long as we all realize that a plot that's dull
to one person may be absorbing to another.

                                   -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 85 1120-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #197
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 197

Today's Topics:

            Art - Cover Art for Footfall,
            Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Paxson (3 msgs) &
                  Schenck & Dragonlance,
            Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) &
                  Comix vs Comics & Ad Astra Con &
                  Space Operas (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz.arpa (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Cover Art
Date: 3 Jun 85 20:18:31 GMT

        How many of you have seen the dust jacket on the new Larry
Niven/Jerry Pournelle book "Footfall"? It is excellent. I even
recognized the alien from the advance description I had of it.

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)

{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}
   !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  4 Jun 1985 10:42:02-PDT
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack
From: anything you want with TECO and DDT)
Subject: Re:  A Body and His Dog

Note that ``. . . that classic line at the end: one couldn't (sic)
think of a more apt ending!'' not only is not in Ellison's novella,
but has been publicly disclaimed by Ellison -- he claims that it
rather strongly violates the spirit of his story, in particular the
actual last line of his story.  (I in fact agree with him on this
point, though I still like the movie's line.)

Also, note that the robot's name is Michael.

        Kevin

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #181
Date: 3 Jun 85 17:42:14 GMT

>From: David Callahan <david@rice.ARPA>
>
>So whatever happened to Harlan Ellison?  No longer writing?  All
>washed up?  Dead?  Womanizing?  If anyone knows, do tell.

According to Locus of a couple months ago, Harlan has just been
getting over a ten-year depression-and-writer's-block.  He has begun
to deliver on all the back books and such (viz. Medea: Harlan's
World) and we can expect to see The Last Dangerous Visions ... Real
Soon Now.

(Jeez, ten years of depression and writer's block -- no wonder he's
seemed so grumpy when I've seen him.)

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Subject: Diana L. Paxson
Date: 04 Jun 85 23:48:24 EDT (Tue)
From: obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA

        Diana L. Paxson has been around for a few years, at least,
but probably counts as a "new" writer.  She shows up at West Coast
conventions and plays Celtic harp (few enough of those around --
wish I could finally meet R. A. MacAvoy to hear her play).

        Curiously, I only spoke with her to confirm that I knew her
father.  He was a strategic analyst at Rand during my early days
there.  Small world.

        She's an interesting person.  Worth reading, worth knowing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 00:33:06 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  Diana Paxson

Diana is far from being new in the fantasy field.  For starters, you
can read her previous stories in the "Thieves' World" series.  Then
there are the chronicles of Westria (set in a post-cataclysm earth
in which the only folk deemed worthy to survive are the Society for
Creative Anachronism -- just kidding).  Titles: Lady of Light; Lady
of Darkness.  Both published by Pocket Timescape and subsequently
victims of the strange mix of bureaucratese etc.  that surrounded
the folding of that line.  The sequels have been bought by Tor, and
the third book tentatively titled Silverhair the Wanderer will be
out next year some time.  Other short stories have appeared in
Amazing and Hecate's Cauldron (published by DAW), and Marion Zimmer
Bradley's "Sword and Sorceress" anthologies and the "Greyhaven"
anthology.  Also soon to be released (from Berkley?): White Mare,
Red Stallion, a romance novel with a twist (it's set in 6th or so
century Scotland; how many romance heroines carry on cogent
conversations with the disembodied heads of their fathers?).  As you
can tell, I like her stuff too, and I think Brisingamen's the best
of the lot.

I'll let her know she got a fan letter...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: wed 5 jun 85 07:36:20-pdt
From: douglas m. olson <dolson@usc-eclb.arpa>
Subject: re: diana paxson

callaghan%pseudo.dec@decwrl.arpa  (gaylene callaghan) writes:
>Why haven't I read anything on Diana Paxson on this net? ...  Is
>she new to the field? Or has she been around (in cognito) for
>awhile?  Has she written anything else?  (quickly, I'm almost
>finished with Brisingamen)

Diana Paxson has written two other novels that I know about, I
believe they are called LADY OF LIGHT and LADY OF DARKNESS.  She has
been an associate of Marion Zimmer Bradley for awhile and is
included in several of MZB's anthologies; I'm not certain she is in
all of these, but try GREYHAVEN, SWORD AND SORCERESS I and II, and
perhaps the anthologies of the Friends of Darkover, SWORD OF CHAOS
and (*arghh*) memory fails me as to the other anthology name.
Sorry, my books are 2000 miles away!

I remember discovering several other authors in those anthologies,
whose works I have continued to snap up whenever I find them...the
only one I can name is Jennifer Roberson, who published
SHAPECHANGERS last year.  MZB has tried to encourage new authors
with her anthologies, she evidently reads a large slushpile every
year.  If you support such efforts, give the books a buy, you never
know what you'll find...

ddo (dolson @ eclb.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 85 11:58 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Any more by this author?

I just re-read a great story and wondered if anyone knew of anything
else by the author.  The story is "The Morphology of the Kirkham
Wreak" by Hilbert Schenck.  It appears in The Best SF of the year
#8, edited by Terry Carr, and the credits list it from Fantasy and
Science Fiction, Sept. 1978.

It is an awesome story, and I refuse to spoil it, except to say that
it is set in England during a raging storm and the hero has to save
the crew of a wreaked sailing vessel.  The results are no less than
cosmic.

Does anyone know where I can find more by Mr. Schenck, and is it up
to snuff?  This story really appealed to me.  I loved the setting,
mood, tone, and the wonderful power of the story.  I highly
recommend this story to anyone reading.

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!dave@topaz.arpa (David Corbin)
Subject: Re: book comments (DragonLance) [ SEMI-SPOILER ]!
Date: 2 Jun 85 16:27:47 GMT

> Anybody out there reading TSR's "Dragonlance" series?
>
> If not, you should be.
>
> If you are, who do you think will get killed-off next and what do
> you think Rastlin's role in all this is?
>
> Also, Fizban appears as a senile old wizard in the first novel but
> in the second he has periods of complete command. Any comments?
>
> Lastly, who is the 'emerald gem man' the bad guys keep talking
> about?
>
> steve avsdS:steve

Yes, I have read the first 2 DragonLance books, and I am anxiously
awaiting the third. (September! Oh that is sooo far away). Killed
off next? I don't know. I wasn't very pleased when Sturm died. He
was, after all, a good guy.  Furthermore, he was above politics, and
wasn't afraid to say so, even at the cost of his life long ambition
(or so he thought).

Raistlin's role is an easy one...His own. He is the personification
of a neutral person I have ever seen. He wants power, for himself.
Simple.

Fizban is a different story. I have NO doubt about who Fizban REALLY
is, but I won't say here, in case you haven't figured it out. If you
really want to know what I think, then send me mail.

Who is the Green Gemstone Man? I don't know.

Who out there is also playing the DragonLance Modules? Generally, I
don't like modules, but this series (once DL5 came out) is very
good. Well designed and doesn't need lots of modification. You have
one definite set purpose, as opposed to "wiping everything in the
module out".

David Corbin
Georgia Institute of Technology
Box 34034
Atlanta GA 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dave
{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!dave

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 22:34:33 PDT
Subject: Re:Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I

     I could burn out a disk citing from W. F. Ingogly's diatribe of
27 May, so I won't bother.
     There is a great deal in his message with which I disagree, but
it all comes down to a simple, and perhaps obvious, fact.  If one is
determined to dislike an author, a class of writing, or anything
else, no saving grace will bring about a change of mind.  It seems
that nothing will clean away the dirt that Mr. Ingogly sees caked
upon science fiction.  I can think of no argument that would change
his mind.
     In regard to the highly subjective test we are offered for
comparing books, I should like to mention an Asimov short story
titled (as best I recall) "The Immortal Bard."  In the story, a
university physics professor tells an English professor of a time
machine he has built.  Already, we learn, he has used it to bring
Shakespeare to the present.  The gentleman was so fascinated to
learn that his works were still studied and performed that the
physicist enrolled him in the English professor's Shakespeare
course--which he proceeded to flunk.
     In short, be careful when attributing brilliant craftmanship
and subtle imagry to a favored author.  The writer concerned may
know nothing about it.
     One quote:

>Lift your head out of the SF ghetto. . .

     Where on earth, Mr. Ingogly, did you get the idea that anyone
here reads science fiction to the exclusion of all else?  Do you
stick to "mainstream" and refuse to soil your hands with mysteries,
fantasies, biographies or other "lower" forms of writing?  None of
the people I know wear the kind of literary blinder you attribute
to us.

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: sdcsla!west@topaz.arpa (Larry West)
Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf? -- plug for IASFM
Date: 2 Jun 85 09:24:04 GMT

thomas@utah-gr.UUCP (Spencer W. Thomas) writes:
>There was an interesting "editorial" in the book review column of
>this month's Asimov's SF (don't have it here, so I don't know if it
>is June, July, Aug, or Sept :-).  Recommended reading if you are
>interested in a comparison between "mainstream" and "genre"
>literature.

The editorial is by Norman Spinrad, and is certainly worth reading.
He talks about "genre" writers trying to break out into commercial
success and of successful authors moving towards SF-like writing.

One of his more interesting examples was of Norman Mailer.  His book
"Ancient Evenings" was widely criticized (not by everyone, of
course) for historical inaccuracies and other "shortcomings",
because the reviewers did not recognize it as science fiction (by
which term I include fantasy and "speculative fiction" in general).
Not "historical fiction" (yech), but SF.

I read AE a few years ago, and though I thought the masculine
sexuality was a bit overdone, the writing was very good, and it was
definitely an engrossing story.  (Yeah, that's a double entendre
there.)  And it was also science fiction.  One of the best SF novels
I've read.

Anyway, the article is interesting.

ALSO: I highly recommend the magazine: I haven't seen any magazine
(literary or SF) beside Asimov's [well, okay, the New Yorker] which
has so many good stories per year.  Of course there are a few
losers, but generally half of the stories are *excellent*.  One clue
to that is that some of the readers complain about the stories "not
being science fiction".  Indeed, many of the stories would not fit
into any other commercial magazine, and that's part of the
magazine's appeal.

Okay, I stop now.

Larry West
Institute for Cognitive Science
UC San Diego (mailcode C-015) [x6220]
La Jolla, CA  92093  U.S.A.
(USA+619-)452-6220
ARPA: <west@nprdc.ARPA>
UUCP: {ucbvax,sdcrdcf,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcsla!west OR
      ulysses!sdcsla!west

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 09:40 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: comix and comics

Some one (whose name slips my mind at the moment, sorry) asked about
the difference between comix and comics. Comix are generally
considered to be underground comic books. Things like the Fabulous
Furry Freak Bros. fit in this category. Comics are more traditional
comic books. Spider-Man, Superman, Elfquest, American Flagg (the
last two are relative newcomers but are both excellent examples of
what *can* be done with the comics medium). I hope this answers your
question.

Henry Vogel

------------------------------

From: rochester!ciaraldi@topaz.arpa
Subject: Ad Astra Con in Toronto
Date: 4 Jun 85 12:58:10 GMT

Can anyone give me more info on the Ad Astra V convention being held
this coming weekend in Toronto?  It is supposed to be June 7-9
(Friday-Sunday) and has guests David Brin (Sundiver, Startide
Rising, and The Practice Effect), Vonda McIntyre (Dreamsnake), and
Mike Glyer (File 770, a fanzine).

What are the activities planned? When does it start on Friday and
end on Sunday?  Are all activiteis at the Howard Johnson's Airport
Hotel?

Thanks for the help.
Mike Ciaraldi
seismo!rochester!ciaraldi

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Re: space "operas"
Date: 4 Jun 85 12:19:53 GMT

If there is "space opera," then there ought logically to be the
equivalents of "Space Verdi," Space Puccini," "Space Wagner," etc.

My personal definition of space opera does not include the built-in
put-downs being promulgated about the net - probably by people who
would put down conventional opera, if they could.

Therefore, my definition is quite able to include "The Foundation"
series.  You see, I <like> space opera.  And I <like> the Foundation
series. Perhaps Asimov is Wagner and the Foundation is the Ring.

Lastly, people who have not read George O. Smith's space operas have
a real treat in store for them.  "Pattern for Conquest" is my
favorite, but there are others.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Re: space "operas"
Date: 4 Jun 85 13:17:25 GMT

>Supremely evil bad guys (what could be worse than a Plooran?)

You must have forgot the Overlords of Delgon  :-)

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 4 Jun 85 09:54:44 GMT

Talking of space opera (a la E.E. Doc Smith), does anyone recall
Perry Rhodan?  This actually billed itself as space opera, started
in Germany, and eventually started to take over the whole world. I
have been collecting English editions for yonks now, and have
recently found the first book (!!) in its posh, Foss covered
edition. I am up to 32 (Challenge of the Unknown, see, I told you it
was space opera) and am scanning bookshops for any more
hypertransitions. The majority of it is gunk, but it's highly
readable gunk. I've seen decent editions up to about 100 and
something.

              ****** WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FILM? ******

There was supposed to be a film: 'SOS from Outer Space' - Where is
it now?

                    ****** PLEASE MAIL ME ******

Robert Ramsay
aka Lazarus Long (Champions)
    Beveric Orcsplatter (AD&D)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  5 Jun 85 1156-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 85 1156-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #198
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 5 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 198

Today's Topics:

         Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Salmonson &
                 Tepper & Liavek,
         Films - Rocky Horror & A View to a Kill,
         Miscellaneous - SF as Art & The Problems of SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: weitek!neal@topaz.arpa (Neal Bedard)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 4 Jun 85 00:02:48 GMT

evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) writes:
> Comes highly recommended.  Comments? Has anyone else ever seen
> this one?

Yep. You may never think the same way about popcorn again. Jason
Robards is priceless as the Dog's telepathic voice.

-Neal B.

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Harlan Ellison's Future Whereabouts
Date: 5 Jun 85 06:37:48 GMT

> From: David Callahan <david@rice.ARPA>
> So whatever happened to Harlan Ellison?  No longer writing?  All
> washed up?  Dead?  Womanizing?  If anyone knows, do tell.

Harlan Ellison is the scheduled GOH at Albacon 85,
Friday 19th July - Monday 22nd July,
The Central Hotel,
Glasgow, Scotland.

So I'll ask him and let you know what he's doing!

NAME:   John A Mariani
PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
UUCP:   ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA:  jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
POST:   University of Lancaster, Department of Computing,
        Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Date: 3 Jun 85 18:00:32 GMT

>Well, how about fascism as glorified politics?

Look, most of these objections have been answered at some length, by
Heinlein and others (see, for example *Expanded Universe*.)  So I am
going to ignore them.

However:
(from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. C. Merriam Co, 1977)
fascism: 1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of
the Fascisti) that exalts nation and race above the individual and
that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a
dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and
forcible supression of opposition

ST has a government in which --

there is no conscription

there is no obvious suppression of individual opinion (recall that
the public was loudly arguing for the Gvt to call back the forces to
defend Earth after Buenos Aires was destroyed)

there is never once a mention of the President or whatever, or in
fact of any political figure higher than (I think) a mayor.

Doesn't even control its servicemen to the extent that they cannot
resign at will (much freer than today -- try giving your top
sergeant two-weeks notice)

Whatever ST was, it was *not* "fascist."  Except to the extent that
"fascist" is now mapped to "anything that I think is Not A Good
Thing."

Let's be a little careful out there...

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 00:44:00 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  Japanese SF/F

Theo, if you want to read some good Japanese-based Fantasy, read the
Tomoe Gozen saga by Jessica Amanda Salmonson.  Alternate Japan
(Naipon) in which the various Shinto deities and other entities are
alive and active.  Good swordplay (accurate Japanese styles!), and
as if that weren't enough, a woman samurai protagonist.  Good stuff.
Nice interior art, too.

Titles: (not necessarily in order -- haven't read them in a while)
        Tomoe Gozen
        The Golden Naginata
        The Thousand Shrine Warrior

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bih ih bih)
Subject: Our Forgetful Authors, or Gender-Shmender
Date: 4 Jun 85 01:24:41 GMT

From Sheri S. Tepper's _Wizard's_Eleven_ (the third book in the True
Game series) [Ace, 1984] :

p 43.  "He went away leading my lovely tall black horse and came
        back with a high-stepping mare of an unusual yellow color
        with nubby shoes such as they use along the River Dourt, or
        so Yarrel had once told me.  It was not an inconspicuous
        animal."

p 58.  "'Get rid of that yellow horse and his strange shoes.'"  [!]

p 76-77 "The yellow horse I had told him to get rid of was cavorting
        in a paddock near the Inn, nubby shoes and all. ... 'He's a
        good horse.  No need to trade him off just yet.'"

Tut, tut.  She to it, within that tiny space between sentences.  And
then on to he, a mere 15 pages later.  Needless to say, there are
not TWO yellow horses nor more than one horse with such shoes.

>Sigh< However, I very much like Sheri Tepper's novels and I
recommend them (at least, to those who enjoy fantasy) (-: or to
those, who hate good fantasy, that I detest immensely :-) .

L S Chabot
decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bih ih bih)
Subject: _Liavek_
Date: 4 Jun 85 01:07:01 GMT

"In the bestselling tradition of THIEVES' WORLD (TM)", the cover
declares, but frankly, _Liavek_, edited by Will Shetterly
(_Cats_Have_No...) and Emma Bull, is better.  Oops, that's a pretty
bald statement.  Shall I say, then, that this first volume of Liavek
is a much smoother read that the first we read of Thieves' World:
each individual polished story is entertaining on its own, the
stories have some overlap without one author mangling another's
protagonist, the gods may scamper about without leaving smoking
ruins in their wakes.  Liavek is a place where you could believe a
merchant and a thief making a decent living. Each time a new
Thieves' World volume comes out I eventually break down and rush it
home in a plain brown bag: a guilty addiction, but I can't stand the
thought of missing out on the big WHOOSH! when Sanctuary goes the
way of Atlantis.

But, then, Liavek was built on more stable ground.  However, I could
not let you leave thinking _Liavek_ is boring-dull-cute.  (Camels
are never cute.)  There is magic here, of a different and
interesting kind.  There are menacing evils here, magical and
otherwise.  There are stories by (in order of appearance): Emma
Bull, Gene Wolfe, Patricia C. Wrede, Nancy Kress (whose first novel
was _The_Prince_of_Morning_ Bells_), Steven Brust, Jane Yolen, Kara
Dalkey, Pamela C. Dean (_The_Secret_ Country_), Megan Lindhold, Will
Shetterly, Barry B.  Longyear.  There are two great maps (the one
showing the town is my favorite because of its perspective). You can
read the stories without any introductory descriptions of Liavek
&tc, although you can find such in the Appendices. (This is
definitely a better idea than putting it first, because it gives the
stories a chance to succeed or fail on their own in convincing you
of their tangibility.  Rant, rant.  Well, anyone who likes it the
other way, read the appendices first.)

Damn, there's a *whole* HERD of camels on the cover.  (With eyelids,
even.)

L S Chabot
decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show
Date: 3 Jun 85 17:37:55 GMT

asz@warwick.UUCP (Frank N Furter) writes:
>>I, for one, will not.  RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it
>>was destroyed by the audience participation.
>>              -- SKZB
>
>Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience
>participation).  Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy
>the sheer brilliance of

My understanding of the London stage play is that there was little
if any audience participation -- except for the ushers, who were
dressed in odd, faceless costumes, and who most wandered the
audience in a daze rather then helping anyone find a seat.

>RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same without audience
>participation - it is essential to the whole ethos to have the
>participation.

Hey! Watch this wrong generation stuff -- I'm almost two months
older than SKZB, and I like the audience participation.

It was nice to see the tape once, though.  That way, I understand
the punchlines.  What do people who are RH virgins do now, when
there are only a few of us left who understand anything going on on
the screen (like anything the Criminologist says.)

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1985  20:55 EDT
From: GZT.VAMPIRE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: A View To A Kill and  Temple of Doom

Has anybody that has seen both of them noticed...  the underground
mines seem to be the same set?  Down to an unexplained gap in the
wall in AVTAK which looks like it might lead to a pit of molten
fire, and flooded tunnels with side escape tunnels, and stuff like
that.  Admittedly AVTAK was made by a foreign film company, but you
never know...
                        -Lu.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 1985 11:35-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <taw@mordor.ARPA>
Subject: SF as art

>``These books (along with most SF) are good adventures, and
>I like them very much on that level.  Art, they are not.''
>                                       -- Peter Alfke

Does science fiction (as opposed to speculative fiction or fantasy)
have to be art to be good?  Not necessarily.  What attracts me to
science fiction are the ideas, not just the style or even (to a
certain degree) the quality of the writing.  I enjoy taking a look
at things from a different perspective and I think that good science
fiction does that.  A really excellent science fiction story can be
written by asking the question "If this goes on, what might
happen?".  In classic English literature, *how* an author says what
he/she has to say is roughly as important as *what* is being said.
In science fiction, I feel the balance can be shifted away from the
"how" as long as the "what" is sufficiently interesting.

Please note that I am not saying that an SF author can be an
incompetant wordsmith and still be a good SF writer.  But also note
that I do believe that superior style and literary craftsmanship are
only a minor part of what science fiction needs to be good.

Tom

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: A SHORT RESPONSE
Date: 5 Jun 85 00:17:18 GMT

Just for the record:

1) I *do* like science fiction, quite a lot. Don't say that I don't
   because I point out some of its problems.

2) I do not think I am God. I don't even think I'm L. Ron Hubbard.

3) I read for fun. I read trash. I just don't have any illusions
   about it, even though I enjoy it. "Enjoyment" is not the be-all
   and end-all of life.

4) I realize that what I say is my opinion, and I am surprised at
   the number of people who have seen fit to inform me of this
   obvious fact. Lighten up.  At least I have attempted to support
   my opinion with examples and logic.

5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van
   Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is bad
   art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them is to
   lump greatness with mediocrity.  Otherwise, there is no basis for
   *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is incredibly
   egocentric.

6) "Well-written" and "boring" are mutually exclusive in my book.

7) I am not a "fan". I don't go to "cons". But my familiarity
   with the field is not lacking, nor is my familiarity with
   mainstream fiction.

8) I could be wrong about everything, but there haven't been too
   many attempts to change my mind with reason and comparisons and
   concrete examples.

9) I do not think that personal attacks and name-calling, such as I
   have been receiving in my mailbox, are necessary, nor
   particularly witty, either.

10) I notice that the majority of responses have ignored the main
   point of each essay. No one chose to argue with Phillip K. Dick
   when he said, "The field has been growing weak... it has become
   ossified. A stale timidity has crept over it..."

                                         Davis Tucker

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf?
Date: 3 Jun 85 15:35:41 GMT

> Remember they said DH Lawrence (for example) wrote "garbage" and
> "trash" when his spicier works first came out.
>       Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
>       The Ohio State University
>       {ucbvax,decvax}!cbosg!osu-eddie!julian

Er, DH Lawrence is a her.  I think her works, spicier and otherwise,
aren't really very good.  She insists on explaining what her
characters are like, rather than showing it, and I've never been
able to identify with any of them.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 01:37:21 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  Problems with SF: Fantasy

Just to satisfy my curiosity, how much fantasy have you read,
discounting The Sword of Sha Na Na, which you justifiably lambaste
(by the way, you should know that among fantasists, far from it's
being held up as "shining light", it is a watchword for bad fantasy.
If there is any light/hope involved, it is, "If Del Rey will by
*THAT* then there must be some hope for me..." :-), and the Darkover
books which you also mention.  (Yes, MZB's writing is spotty.  We
all have bad days.)

Have you read The Charwoman's Shadow and Don Rodriguez by Lord
Dunsany?  Mistress of Mistresses by ER Eddison (also The Worm
Ourobouros, if you like extended strategy, intricacies of politics,
and swordplay.  MoM is my favourite of his, but I thought I should
mention his first...)?  Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser books
(great Sword & Sorcery, the exemplar of the branch, RE Howard
notwithstanding)?  And for more contemporary stuff, The Last Unicorn
by Peter S. Beagle (beautiful language; astonishing and right
juxtapositions of words)?  Diane Duane's Door books, and her
juvenile "Wizardry" series?  The Murry and Austin family series by
Madeleine L'Engle (juvenile, but worth it!)?  The Traveller in Black
by John Brunner?  And numerous works by Poul Anderson, Avram
Davidson (The Phoenix & the Mirror is great!), Mildred Downey
Broxon, John Gardner (The Wierdstone of Brisingamen and The Moon of
Gomrath are my favourites)?  And one last old source, the incredible
A. Merritt (The Ship r, The Face in the Abyss, The Moon Pool; like
poetry, but you never find out until you read it out loud)?  HP
Lovecraft is good too, but I prefer his older stuff -- the
collection called The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath is very nice,
though some events are presented as scary and are more fascinating
than frightening.  But then, Lovecraft was afraid of everything :-)

These are my favourites (ATTENTION, WHOEVER'S DOING THE POLL!).  I
have discovered in the course of many book discussions in the
Mythopoeic Society (info supplied on request...) that it is much
easier to tear a book to shreds (figuratively!) than to say good
things about it.  Why cannot the same language used to criticise be
used to commend?  Why must commendation be limited in its
descriptive terms -- you'll find much more subtlety and exactness of
word choice in a pan than you will in a rave (at least I do).  What
books DO you like, David, and why?

And one final note: yes, authors tend to write things they are sure
will sell money; perhaps you have a comfortable and steady income.
Very few working writers today are independently wealthy -- we have
to eat too.  Perhaps you will eventually find yourself having to
write a piece of code you're not proud of.  Think of the writers you
denigrate then, eh?  Maybe you should write the kinds of stories you
like, if you aren't satisfied with existing works.  It is not all
that easy, as I hope you'll find.  Ahem.  End of flame.

Leigh Ann
("Fantasy Book", Dec. 84)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  6 Jun 85 0942-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 85 0942-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #199
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 6 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 199

Today's Topics:

       Books - Gardner & Spider Robinson & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
               Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine,
       Films - Rocky Horror & Buckaroo Banzaii
       Miscellaneous - Selling Your First Story

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 15:48 EDT
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: Craig Shaw Gardner
Cc: steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA

In #195 Dave Steiner asked:

    Does anyone know anything about a Craig Shaw Gardner?  I read a
    story of his in Flashing Swords #5. It was about a sorcerer
    named "Ebenezum".  I found it a rather amusing story and have
    been looking for other things by him but have never seen
    anything.  Anybody know if he has written anything else?

Craig is an old friend, although we haven't been in touch very much
the last few years.  He's been writing for over a decade; he's
published fiction in a couple of magazines and a few anthologies,
film reviews, and SF book reviews.  I've heard that he's recently
signed a multibook contract with a major SF publisher.

Craig is a terrific guy, very funny.  He goes to a lot of cons and
serves on panels at most of them, so you might run into him if you
go to any yourself.

I'll give him a call and get a list of his fiction credits for you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  5 Jun 85 23:25:52 EST
From: David A. Adler <DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Info on Spider Robinson novel

A friend of mine bought Spider Robinson's new collection, MELANCHOLY
ELEPHANTS, and noticed a novel in the list of books that he had
never heard of. Does anyone know of any information about NIGHT OF
POWER by Spider Robinson?

Thanks in advance,
                DAdler

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 04:15:55 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: re: re: attacks on "Lord of Light"

I have to agree with John Redford here, although I have some
sympathy with Bill Ingogly's point.  I've read both Naipaul's A BEND
IN THE RIVER and Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT and they are so different,
in plot, style, characterization and intent, that comparing them on
a sentence by sentence basis strikes me as an absurd exercise.

Having said that, I think I can still make some generalizations
about the books that might help you decide which one is more
interesting to read.  BEND is narrated by an Indian shopkeeper named
Salim who has come to live in an unnamed town on an unnamed river in
an unnamed African country (which is apparently modeled after
Stanleyville in the Congo).  The novel mercilessly describes the
gradual, inevitable collapse of Salim's political and social
illusions about life in his new country.  While the characters
appear realistic, I still got the feeling they mostly exist to flesh
out points about social problems in third world countries.  Little
or no effort is made to make the characters sympathetic, and I felt
frequent annoyance at the foolishness or obstinacy of almost all the
characters, particularly the narrator.  My principal emotion when I
finished the novel was disgust, and the fact that Naipaul intended
me to be disgusted didn't make me feel much better.  I much
preferred the other Naipaul novel I've read, A HOUSE FOR MR. BISWAS,
which is a fictionalized autobiography of Naipaul's childhood in
Trinidad.  Although HOUSE is equally pitiless toward its characters,
they seemed much more human, and I was able to empathize with them
almost in spite of the author...

LORD OF LIGHT is about what happens when some otherwise ordinary
human beings try to become gods.  There's probably no point in
describing the book in detail since most of this audience is
familiar with it, but I will say that while LORD is not profound, it
is deeper than Bill Ingogly implies; it suggests that there is more
to the god business than the characters in the novel can imagine,
and works this hypothesis out in careful stages rather than
announcing it as a conclusion.  The style is not as pedestrian as
Bill would have it either, although it does have its weaknesses; the
story is a melodrama in the same form as a classic legend, tending
to colorful action at the expense of sophisticated dialogue.  I
think Zelazny clearly relishes his characters and enjoys playing
serious scenes off against comic relief (which takes the form of
anachronisms, typical of Zelazny).  The characters don't seem dead,
as Bill would claim.  In fact the whole novel is basically written
for fun, and the fun rubs off on the reader (at least on me).

If I had to choose which of the two books I could take to a desert
island, there's no question that I would take LORD OF LIGHT.
Perhaps this shows I have no taste...  (... which should come as no
surprise to some of you!)

Now, with all that in front, let me back up a little further.
Bill's point -- that you should not automatically assume that the
only good books, or even most good books, are sf books, WITHOUT
TRYING ANY OTHER KIND -- is basically a good one.  The point I would
like to share with you is simply the converse of Bill's: Don't
assume that a book must be good just because someone else tells you
so; it's YOUR taste in books that counts, not some snotty reviewer's
(who, me?).  It may require some effort to determine the extent to
which a reviewer's taste coincides with your own, but you have to
make it, otherwise you won't be reading the books you'll enjoy the
most.  If you expose yourself only to sf reviews, you'll miss plenty
of non-sf books that you might have liked, so the implication of
both points is that you should hunt around more.  You shouldn't feel
guilty about not reading boring classics, but you will probably feel
chagrin if you overlook a work you lumped into that category and
later on discover that it was brilliant...  Does all this make
sense?  Hope it's not too obvious...

(Here's my little plug: a book that combines gritty realism with the
head space of certain kinds of sf (such as Ballard or Dick) is FAR
TORTUGA by Peter Matthiessen.  Try reading it and see if you don't
get the same kick you get when reading excellent sf; I sure did.)

Trying to figure out what brought on this spasm of self-criticism in
sf-lovers,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 85 12:02:29 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Amber Update

I just got off the phone with Roger's agent.  It seems that all of
the rumours about the new Amber series (some of them reported in
Locus) are not exactly accurate.  The facts are: Roger has
contracted to do 7 books for the series.  Starting with the second
book, Roger's editor will be ... Frank Herbert!  The titles of the
books will be:

        Trumps of Doom          [Already in print]
        Doom Messiah
        Children of Doom
        Godemperor of Doom
        Heretics of Doom
        Chapterhouse Doom
        Doom: The Final Solution

[Sorry -- it's not even my joke!  Ken the Kunning came up with the
idea.]

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 21:53:28 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: IASFM

I've been hearing a lot lately about how good Isaac Asimov's SF
Magazine is.  From time to time I pick up issues of Analog or F&SF;
Analog just doesn't run enough worthwhile stories for it to be worth
my while to read through every issue, and F&SF is almost but not
quite worth it.  From what I hear of Asimov's, it has the highest
level of quality of the three.  I really would like to keep up more
with what's going on, and I'm on the verge of getting a
subscription.  Does anyone out there have any opinions on the
magazine?

(I assume that I can just find a subscription coupon in an ad in
Analog or F&SF.)
                                        Thanks
                                          --Peter Alfke
jpa144@cit-vax  until 6/14
(then in limbo, then)
alfke.pasa@xerox  7/1 onwards

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 09:52 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: The Rocky Horror (not picture) Show

>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 12:03 EDT
>From: Thomas Whitaker <whit@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
>
>The stage production ran in London about seven years ago at the
>King's Road Theater.  The film and stage productions were true to
>each other (which came first is not clear to me).  However, as a
>true fan of the film, I was sorely disappointed by the stage
>production.  Reason: No audience participation!!  Lots of laughter
>but not much else.  One hilarious exception: When Janet says "Well,
>I don't like a man with too many muscles.", a man in the front row
>yelled out "I do!" and Frank congratulated him.  The other
>highlight was at the end of the show when xeroxed copies of the
>steps to do the Time Warp showered down from the ceiling.  I keep
>it pressed in my book of memories.

I believe the play ran in London for eight years (as long as JC
Superstar ran there), closing at the Comedy Theatre in September of
1980.  A few audience participation bits I liked included:

The ghouls wandering around the audience before the play began and
coming up behind the odd patron to scare them silly.

Some people in the audience trying to insult the narrator.  He
dropped out of the text (but not out of character) long enough to
insult them beautifully and then continued with the play.

After Rocky's arrival, he shows off his muscles to the audience and
lets someone in the first row or two (there was a short runway which
extended into the first three rows of seats) squeeze his bicep.
When they do, he falls over and whines in pain.

When Frank sings "I'm Going Home", he sits on the runway and reaches
his hand out to someone in the audience.  During one performance,
the patron refused to take it.  After being refused by that person a
second time (and while singing all the while), he tried someone on
the other side.  That person took his hand.  Frank kept on with the
song, smiling at the person holding his hand and occasionally
turning to give a dirty look at the one who refused.  The audience
loved it.

At the last performance in London (a friend of mine attended),
things got rather more out of hand.  When Brad was divested of his
clothing and given the lab coat to wear, he discovered that someone
had sewn the sleeves shut.  Somehow he managed to keep going.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 1985 1726 GMT
From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. <WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA>
Subject: Review of Goonies

GOONIES -- a review

Goonies (Director: Richard Donner, Exec. Producer: Steven Spielberg)
is pretty mindless summer entertainment fare.  The film is a fantasy
about a group of kids in search of pirate treasure, and requires a
significant suspension of disbelief to be enjoyed; otherwise you
will lose track of the number of illogical and nonsensical events
before the film is half over.  It's a movie you can take the kids
to, if your kids are old and/or mature enough to handle occasional
mild profanity and television-grade violence.

Goonies comes off as a cross between Indiana Jones and the Temple of
Doom, and Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean ride (Yo ho ho ho, a
pirate's life for me!), with a few dashes of the Great Underground
Empire thrown in, and a predictable Hollywood ending.  It's an
entertaining film; the story moves along at a pretty good clip, and
there are some scenes containing very funny dialogue and physical
comedy.  Great Art it isn't.  In general I enjoyed the film, but was
somewhat disappointed by its lack of originality; many of the plot
elements, characters, etc. seem to have been lifted directly from
other Spielberg movies.  Special effects (by Industrial Light &
Magic) are good in most cases and bad in some cases, but nothing
really spectacular.  I would rate this movie about a 7 on a scale of
10.

                      ** SPOILER WARNING ON **

The story line of Goonies can be summarized thusly: A group of
Unbearably Cute Kids (the Goonies) find an old map in the attic
showing the location of the fabulous hidden treasure of One Eyed
Willie, a famous local pirate.  The treasure is hidden in a huge
booby-trapped network of caves, tunnels and what not, and No One Who
Has Gone Inside Has Ever Returned Alive to Tell the Tale. The
neighborhood where the kids live is about to be bulldozed into a
golf course by the local Evil Country Club unless the land can be
bought back, providing the motivation to go after the treasure.
Additional motivation is provided when they accidentally encounter a
small family of Evil Mafia Hitfolk near the entrance to the cave,
trying to dispose of a body, who naturally have to chase and attempt
to kill the kids as potential witnesses.

Each Cute Kid has his/her own "hook" for the audience to hang its
hat on: one kid is an asthmatic, his brother is a teenage jock, one
is overweight, one is a slick-tongued bullshit artist, one is an
Asian who invents Rube Goldberg devices (of which there are a
plenitude in this film), one is a cheerleader, etc.  The kids are
assisted in their quest by John Matuszak, part of the Evil Mafia
Hitfolk family, who has been locked in the basement watching
television for lo these many years, probably because his face
resembles that of a Yoda with elephantiasis (complete with ears that
wiggle).  A superb makeup job.  His Raider's sweatshirt is a nice
touch, too.  His essential goodness becomes evident when the Cute
Fat Kid befriends him by giving him a Baby Ruth bar.

Most of the film consists of the kids making their way through the
underground, narrowly escaping booby traps and Hitfolk, until they
find the treasure in the old pirate ship floating in a beautiful
blue grotto.  There the final confrontation between good guys and
bad guys takes place, with the good guys escaping to the outside.
Unfortunately, they forget to take any loot with them.  Or do they?

                     ** SPOILER WARNING OFF **

Disclaimer: My wife works for Warner Bros. (in DP, not film
production) so we have somewhat of a vested interest in the film
doing well.  That's why I didn't want to post a review of Ladyhawke;
besides, Mark Leeper said everything I was going to say anyway.  I
probably don't even need to worry about Warner Bros.; whenever they
run low on cash they just make another Clint Eastwood movie.

                     Bill Weisman  (WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA)
                     JPL Information Processing Center
                     540 W. Woodbury Rd.
                     Altadena, CA

------------------------------

From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch)
Subject: Buckeroo Banzaii ???
Date: 6 Jun 85 12:24:48 GMT

Would someone out there in netland take pity on a poor chap and mail
him an explanation of Buckeroo Banzai. I keep seeing it
mentioned/quoted, and I take it to be a film or tv series that
hasn't arrived on this side of the Atlantic yet. The little bits and
pieces that I have been able to pick up sound quite interesting, and
my curiosity is now piqued to an unacceptable level.

                              Thanks in advance,
                                           Chris Welch,
                                           Cranfield Institute,
                                           U.K.
                                           csw@ukc.uucp

------------------------------

Date: Wed 5 Jun 85 09:11:59-PDT
From: Doug <Faunt%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #192

Two things: A friend of mine recently sold his first novel (and I
believe, his first fiction) to Terry Carr for the next series of Ace
Specials on the basis of a chapter and an outline.  Dave Hartwell
has asked him for the same for another novel, so at least in two
signficant cases, the chapter and outline, even for a new writer is
sufficient.

"Crown of Creation" was co-written by Charley Cockey, a SF fan and
owner of Fantasy, Etc. in San Francisco.  He claims that the quotes
from "Re-birth" are all cool.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Jun 85 1236-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 85 1236-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #200
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 7 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 200

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Harrison & Wolfe &
                        Stories Set on Mars,
                Miscellaneous - D.H. Lawrence & The Problems of SF &
                        SF and Literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Sequels
Date: 7 Jun 85 03:44:44 GMT

>Sometimes a series should have stopped at one.  Sometimes not.
>I've never heard anyone suggest that Asimov should have stopped
>with _Foundation_.

Slight correction: Asimov wrote a series, all right, but it didn't
start with FOUNDATION, at least not as a novel.  He wrote a series
of short pieces for magazines that were collected together into the
three books, FOUNDATION, FOUNDATION AND EMPIRE, and SECOND
FOUNDATION.  He didn't even know, probably, when he went from
FOUNDATION to FOUNDATION AND EMPIRE.  He wouldn't have known where
FOUNDATION ended so it is less likely he would have stopped there.
Anybody know if it was even Asimov who did the dividing of his
stories into the books.  I get the impression it wasn't Asimov from
things he has said at conventions and in print.  I know he says that
he did not like the title I, ROBOT when it was chosen for the book
of his robot stories.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re:Space Opera - STAR SMASHERS etc.
Date: 7 Jun 85 03:30:53 GMT

hmmm. Interesting to me that while I am an inveterate lover of what
I consider good space opera, I couldn't get past page 19 of STAR
SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS before consigning it to the "read or
never will be " pile. Yet Harrison is the author of the Stainless
Steel Rat Series. I habitually use page one of The Stainless Steel
Rat as a hook to ensnare new readers to SF. I hand them the book
open to page 1.  I say, "As a favor to me, just read this first
page. You can stop there if you want to."  So far no one has yet
ever been able to stop without reading the whole book and then going
on from there to the world of Science Fiction.  Of course, I don't
just do this with everybody, only those I think from other evidence
will like SF if they ever try it.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Still amazed by Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS after 20
Subject: readings...
Date: 6 Jun 85 09:59:50 GMT

I give up.  After going through the book for the twentieth time or
so, I still have to admit that Gene Wolfe's THE FIFTH HEAD OF
CERBERUS is my favorite work of sf, and very possibly my favorite
book, period.  I have found something new every single time I've
read it, which I think is the greatest and most difficult gift an
author can make to a reader.  On this pass I finally figured out
what Number Five's real name is.  In retrospect I probably should
have guessed it sooner, but that would have taken some of the fun
and suspense out of it!  Has anyone else had this experience?

Awed,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

PS -- If you're a Wolfe fan and haven't figured out who Number Five
is, are desperate to know and happen to be going to the Usenix
conference, buttonhole me when you see me there and I'll give you a
hint.  I'm also open to hypotheses about PEACE, NEW SUN and other
Wolfe masterpieces...

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Stories set on mars (followup; long)
Date: 4 Jun 85 20:44:57 GMT

Here is the summary of replies for my request on stories set on
mars.  Thanks to everyone for taking the time to send me your
thoughts -- you shook out a few forgotten stories I'm happy to
remember, and pointed me in a couple of places I missed.

chuq

***** From ihnp4!pur-ee!weil

My all-time favorite set of Mars stories is the Michael Kane trilogy
by Michael Moorcock.

        City of the Beast  (Warriors of Mars)
        Lord of the Spiders  (Blades of Mars)
        Masters of the Pit  (Barbarians of Mars)

The names in paren's are the original titles which were published
under the pen-name of Edward P. Bradbury.

***** From decwrl!muffy@lll-crg

Stanley Weinbaum, "A Martian Odyssey"
Arthur C. Clarke, "Report on Planet Three"
C. L. Moore, "Shambleau"
C. L. Moore, "The Tree of Life"
John Varley, "In the Hall of the Martian Kings"

***** From decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-miles!chabot

if you forget to list Zelazny's "A Rose for Ecclesiastes", SZKB will
probably shoot you.  It's in many collections.

Most of the C. L. Moore's Northwest Smith stories in _Scarlet_Dream_
(Donald M. Grant, 1981) take place on Mars: "Shambleau", "The Tree
of Life", "Scarlet Dream", "Dust of the Gods", "The Cold Gray God",
"Yvala".

But, again, I like Brackett's _The_Coming_of_the_Terrans_ best.
It's a volume of short stories, but rather than Moore's adventurer
encountering strange and fantastic creatures, Brackett's are stories
about earth-people, with their technology, and their interactions
with the superficially innocent/docile members of the ancient race
of martians; Brackett is more modern, less eerie and weird than
Moore or much of Bradbury.  "Mars Minus Bisha" is devastating: 'So
small a grave did not take long to dig.'

_The_Sword_of_Rhiannon_ is also by Leigh Brackett and also about
Mars.

Oh, and the Walter R. Brooks books are _Freddy_and_the_Men_from_
Mars_ and _Freddy_and_the_Baseball_Team_from_Mars_ (same Martians in
both).

***** From ihnp4!mtgzz!daemon

Arnold, Edwin L.        Gulliver of Mars
Asimov, Isaac           Martian Way
Blish, James            Welcome to Mars
Bradbury, Edward P.     Barbarians of Mars
Bradbury, Edward P.     Blades of Mars
Bradbury, Edward P.     Warriors of Mars
Bradbury, Ray           Martian Chronicles
Bretnor, Reginald       Spear of Mars
Brown, Fredric          Martians, Go Home
Brunner, John           Born Under Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Chessmen of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Fighting Man of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Gods of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   John Carter of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Mastermind of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Princess of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Swords of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Synthetic Men of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Thuvia, Maid of Mars
Burroughs, Edgar Rice   Warlord of Mars
Carter, Lin             Man Who Loved Mars
Chandler, A. Bertram    Alternate Martians (M-129*)
Charkin, Paul           Light of Mars
Clarke, Arthur C.       Prelude to Mars [PS,SM+]=
Clarke, Arthur C.       Sands of Mars
Claudy, Carl H.         Mystery Men of Mars=
Del Rey, Lester         Marooned on Mars
Dick, Philip K.         Martian Time-Slip
Farmer, Philip Jose     Jesus on Mars
Gordon, Rex             First on Mars
Grinnell, David         Martian Missile (D-465)
Heinlein, Robert A.     Podkayne of Mars
Hipolito, Jane          Mars, We Love You
Judd, Cyril             Outpost Mars
Kline, Otis Adelbert    Outlaws of Mars
Kline, Otis Adelbert    Swordsman of Mars
Long, Frank Belknap     Mars Is My Destination
Moskowitz, Sam          Under the Moons of Mars=
O'Neill, Scott          Martian Sexpot
Petaja, Emil            Caves of Mars (M-133)
Russell, Eric Frank     Men, Martians, and Machines
Serviss, Garrett P.     Invasion Mars [Edison's]
Sharkey, Jack           Secret Martians (D-471)
Sohl, Jerry             Mars Monopoly (D-162)
Tubb, E. C.             C.O.D. Mars (H-40)
Weinbaum, Stanley G.    Martian Odyssey
Wollheim, Donald A.     Secret of the Martian Moons
Woodcott, Keith         Martian Sphinx
Wyndham, John           Sleepers of Mars
Wyndham, John           Stowaway to Mars

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

***** From seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

Try Arthur Clarke's "Prelude to Mars"...it's entertaining if you
don't mind it being dated....

***** From fortune!allegra!convex!ctvax!trsvax!wkb

   My all time favorite is the classic "Martian Odyssey".  There are
some other good stories that have scenes on Mars (like "Gateway"),
but the only others that I can remember are in "The Martian
Chronicals".

***** From ames!barry

1) Martian Chronicles                   Bradbury
2) Red Planet                           Heinlein
3) A Rose For Ecclesiastes              Zelazny
4) High Weir                            Delany
5) A Martian Odyssey                    Weinbaum
6) Open to Me, My Sister                Farmer
   (aka My Sister's Brother)
7) The John Carter series               Burroughs
8) Man Plus                             Pohl
9) The Rolling Stones                   Heinlein
10) Barbarians of Mars                  "Edward Bradbury"
                                        (Michael Moorcock)
11) The Martian Way                     Asimov
12) Jesus On Mars                       Farmer
13) War of the Worlds                   Wells
14) Shambleau                           C. L. Moore
15) The Crystal Egg                     Wells
16) A Journey to Mars                   Gustavus W. Pope
17) Edison's Conquest of Mars           Garrett P. Serviss
18) The Forgotten Man of Space          P. Shuyler Miller
19) Old Faithful                        Raymond Z. Gallun
20) Out of the Silent Planet            C.S. Lewis
21) Sands of Mars                       Clarke
22) Martian Time-Slip                   Dick
23) Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldrich    Dick
24) The Space Machine                   Christopher Priest
25) The Martian Inca                    Ian Watson
26) In the Hall of the Martian Kings    Varley

***** From decwrl!decvax!yale!sharp

  I really enjoyed the books Heinlein set on Mars.  These were among
his juveniles; some that spring to mind are Red Planet, part of
Rolling Stones, and Podykane of Mars (a little).  There are, of
course, many others.

  I liked The Sands of Time by Arthur C. Clarke (I'm not,
embarrassingly enough, totally positive about the title).

  Asimov had a good set of stories, including The Martian Way.

***** From seismo!aplvax!osiris!rob@maryland

Larry Niven has a few Mars stories in his Known Space history:

Eye of an Octopus
How the Heroes Die
At the Bottom of a Hole

and another that isn't connected to anything else, The Hole Man.

***** From seismo!mcvax!ukc!drb@ukc.ac.uk

 I liked the book by Robert Heinlein "Red Planet", which was,
suprisingly, set on Mars.

***** From ihnp4!burl!geoff

Red Planet -- Heinlein (of course)

From the misfiring synapses of:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: petfe!clarise@topaz.arpa (Clarise Samuels)
Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf?
Date: 5 Jun 85 20:37:47 GMT

D(avid) H(erbert) Lawrence, English novelist, 1885-1930, is not a
her.

------------------------------

From: duke!ndd@topaz.arpa (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE
Date: 5 Jun 85 14:43:12 GMT

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>4) I realize that what I say is my opinion, and I am surprised at
>   the number of people who have seen fit to inform me of this
>   obvious fact.  Lighten up.  At least I have attempted to support
>   my opinion with examples and logic.
>
>5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van
>   Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is
>   bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them is
>   to lump greatness with mediocrity.  Otherwise, there is no basis
>   for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is
>   incredibly egocentric.

I think that the thing that bothers me is the dogmatic tone of your
articles, all of which sound much like your point #5. I don't see
how you can say that there is good art and bad art; that seems to me
a little too strong. It may be your opinion, but where are the
examples and logic: how do you *know* that Norman Rockwell isn't
superior to Van Gogh? Maybe if you would lighten up, some of your
critics would too.

Ned Danieley
duke!ndd

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Science Fiction and Literature
Date: 4 Jun 85 14:05:50 GMT

There has been a great deal of flame recently on the subject of the
literary merits (or lack thereof) of science fiction.
Unfortunately, most of this has been of the form "I like these
authors and don't like those authors".  To try to avoid that I will
avoid mentioning particular authors entirely in this submission
(although the temptation is at some points hard to resist).

I am not going to attempt to compare the literary merits of "science
fiction" and "mainstream literature"; my knowledge of the latter is
too small.  Instead I wish to concentrate on the comparison of
science fiction as viewed by its fans (typified by the Hugo awards),
and science fiction as viewed by critics from outside the field.
The striking thing about this comparison is that there is
practically no overlap between what the two groups like.

Essentially, there are two possible explanations for this: either
one group has no taste and likes junk, or different but reasonable
standards are being applied by the two.  I believe that the latter
is the case.  In particular, I believe there is an element present
in the science fiction preferred by the fans, which the critics
either do not recognize or do not value.

This element is _world_building_.  By this I mean the invention of a
(relatively) complete, believable background for the story.  This
may mean any or all of an alien world, alien creatures, speculative
societies, or created sciences and technologies.  The key word here
is *invented*; mainstream fiction has backgrounds every bit as
complete and believable (indeed more so, on average), but they are
not invented.  Thus they do not require the creative effort that
good science fiction requires.

I believe the critics, as a class, are unaware of this dimension to
science fiction.  They thus tend to judge science fiction
backgrounds by the standards appropriate for non-science fiction;
their verisimilitude and lack of intrusion on the story.  But these
criteria precisely exclude the more inventive works of science
fiction!  An alien background can hardly be true-to-life (at least
life-as-we-know-it), and by the same token, a fair amount of the
author's effort must go into conveying that background.  (Of course,
good science fiction authors are good at conveying that background
with minimal intrusion, but it will still stick out more than in the
mainstream.)

Now, is this an accurate description of what sf fans value?  Or do
they, as has been alleged, prefer rehashings of the same old tired
themes, and infinite sequels?  I submit that, based on the Hugo
awards, they do indeed prefer inventive world-building.  I can think
of only one recent Hugo winner which is in any way a sequel (and
whatever you may think of that one, _Foundations_Edge_, it is
clearly a special case (remember, no names, please)).  As to the
quality of the world-building in them, that must be left for each
individual to judge; but I think a critical reading will bear out my
point.

A final point -- there is an important distinction between a series
and a set of sequels, both of which are proliferating in sf today.
A sequel is written after the fact, to take advantage of a good
thing, and is rarely much good.  A series is a planned single work
in multiple volumns, and should properly be judged as a whole.
There is one good reason for writing series in sf, which is that a
single volumn is often inadequate to convey a well built world,
particularly when the author is attempting to produce superior
characters and plot as well as a superior world.  (These efforts are
rarely all successful, but ...)

I am Frank Adams, at Multi-mate International in Hartford.  I'm
quite new to the net, and don't really know what the address is here
(I'll figure it out soon).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Jun 85 1258-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 85 1258-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #201
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 8 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 201

Today's Topics:

                Books - Ellison (4 msgs) & Panshin &
                        Paxson & Schenck,
                Miscellaneous - Space Operas & Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rayssd!m1b@topaz.arpa (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 4 Jun 85 21:16:51 GMT

> Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are pleased to
> announce that they have resolved their dispute regarding the
> motion picture The Terminator and Hemdale Film Corporation
> acknowledges the works of HARLAN ELLISON.  [In the ad, "Harlan
> Ellison" is in bold face]
>
> Does anyone know what this is about.
>
> Reply to me, as I'm not on sf-lovers.

        I do not know how to reply to ARPA nodes so everyone is
forced to read this.  If someone could relay it to him, thanks.  To
everyone else, sorry.

        Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from
two episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'.  The episode names elude
me but the plots were: 1) the soldier from the future, Quallo
Kaprikni (sic?), and 2) Bob Culp as a robot from the future with a
glass hand ('Demon with a Glass Hand'?).  He therefore sued for
copyright infringement and won.

Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b
Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Box 330, Portsmouth, RI  02871

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (High Anxiety Workstations)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 5 Jun 85 20:30:56 GMT

> This is a midnight/college-circuit cult classic, and I think
> deservedly so: the somewhat tongue-in-cheek post-holocaust
> scenario, the talking dog (who for my money is the best character
> in the movie, Don Johnson [so that's who that was]
> notwithstanding), the decidedly motley crew led by Jason Robards
> that thrives underground, and a menacing robot named Larry(?) --
> folks, this is, bizarre as it is, one of the funniest movies I've
> ever seen. And that classic line at the end: one couldnt think of
> a more apt ending! I would rate this a must-see.

While the dog is intentionally the smartest and most worthwhile
character in the movie, the ending line is barbaric and abominable.
I believe the author of the short story shares this opinion--it
ain't in the story.

L S Chabot
decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 6 Jun 85 13:46:24 GMT

>       Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from
> two episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'.  The episode names elude
> me but the plots were: 1) the soldier from the future, Quallo
> Kaprikni (sic?), and 2) Bob Culp as a robot from the future with a
> glass hand ('Demon with a Glass Hand'?).  He therefore sued for
> copyright infringement and won.
>
> Joe Barone

This seems a little thin.  The producers would have had to copied a
lot more than the IDEA from Ellison for him to win a copyright suit.
Ideas are not copyrightable, only the particular expression of those
ideas are.  If you could sue a writer for stealing an idea, they
could sue every writer in existence.  When was the last time you saw
a TV show or a movie with an original plot?  A writer has to be very
good just to come up with an interesting variation of an old idea.

I enjoyed the Terminator, even though I couldn't find a single
element in the plot that hadn't been used before.  As Siskel and
Ebert pointed out, it actually works better as romance than Science
Fiction.

   'I came across time for you, Sarah.'

Heck, most women today would feel lucky if they could find a guy
that would stop off at the cleaners to pick up their laundry. :->

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!esco@topaz.arpa (Michael Esco)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 7 Jun 85 01:22:06 GMT

>> There's a movie appearing 4 times on The Movie Channel (at odd
>> times...VCR people take note) called A Boy and His Dog.  It is a
>> marvelous post-WWIII

I told a friend once that I could never marry a woman that couldn't
sit through `A Boy and His Dog.' He replied "You know, you're going
to be a bachelor for a long time." Well, in that case I'd like a dog
like Tiger (Blood). Even if he can't talk. That dog could display
more emotion through his dirty, fuzzy face than could 9 out of 10
Hollywood starlets.
                                        Michael Esco
                                        Boeing Aerospace

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Sequels
Date: 6 Jun 85 14:12:57 GMT

Speaking of sequels did Alexis Panshin ever get around to writing
'The Galactic Pantograph'? This was supposed to the last of a
quartet of novels. Am I never going find out why Robert Villiers is
trying to kill his brother Anthony? Is Tony going to make it to
Nashua for the weddings? Arghhhh!!!

When a writer sets out to write a set of novels, as opposed to a
continuing series, to only exceptable excuse for not finishing it is
death. And even then he should leave a plot outline with the
executor of his estate. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  7 Jun 1985 08:14:03-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Diana Paxson

Thanks to everyone that responded to my inquiry of Diana Paxson. I
had no idea I'd been missing out on so much. (and I thought I'd been
reading quite a bit lately.... hmmm)

Gaylene

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Any more by this author?
Date: 5 Jun 85 17:14:23 GMT

pugh@topaz.ARPA writes:
>  I just re-read a great story and wondered if anyone knew of
>anything else by the author.  The story is "The Morphology of the
>Kirkham Wreak" by Hilbert Schenck.  It appears in The Best SF of
>the year #8, edited by Terry Carr, and the credits list it from
>Fantasy and Science Fiction, Sept. 1978.
>  Does anyone know where I can find more by Mr. Schenck, and is
>it up to snuff?

Hilbert Schenck has published a number of stories in Fantasy and
Science Fiction over the last few years, so you might check the
annual "Best of Fantasy and Science Fiction" collection (I assume
it's still being published on a yearly basis; I don't read the
anthologies because I subscribe to the magazine). He seems to
consistently produce engaging, well-plotted stories, and I've
enjoyed everything I've read by him. If anyone knows that he's
published a novel or has one in the works, I'd be interested in
hearing about it.
                              -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 05 Jun 85 22:41:25 PDT (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> My personal definition of space opera does not include the
> built-in put-downs being promulgated about the net - probably by
> people who would put down conventional opera, if they could.

This leaves me with no real idea what you do consider to be space
opera -- merely that there are parts, unspecified, of other
definitions that you don't like.  As for conventional opera, it is a
very mixed bag.  There are many places where a sharp word is in
order.

> Therefore, my definition is quite able to include "The Foundation"
> series.  You see, I <like> space opera.  And I <like> the
> Foundation series. Perhaps Asimov is Wagner and the Foundation is
> the Ring.

I like Asimov enormously, and Clarke.  I consider them two of the
leaders of the field.  Foundation is a wonderful work, with few
equals, and I'm delighted that it's still growing.  But Asimov is
not Wagner, and by no means is Foundation the Ring.  Kilimanjaro is
spectacular as Kilimanjaro: it doesn't have to be Everest.  And
Wagner's Ring is closer to Everest.

   Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Criticism
Date: 4 Jun 85 21:54:21 GMT

BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA writes:

>Bill Ingodly writes:

I sincerely hope this is a typographical error, since I'm sure most
mature posters to the net are offended by 'humor' that pokes fun at
people's names or racial/physical characteristics. Please take care
to get people's names right in the future, since errors of this sort
can lead to bad feelings. Catch my drift?

>> In what way are the best writers in SF more numerous or better
>> writers than these mainstream people? We're talking superior
>> craftsmanship here, things like real dialogue by real people,
>> little things I find infrequently in much SF.
>
>I've recently read _Invisible_Cities_ (Calvino); saying that it had
>either characters or dialogue is an act of considerable generosity.
>(It is virtually pure structure, more like an abstract painting
>than a novel; recommended, but *NOT* for personality.)  Didion's
>_A_Book_Of_Common_Prayer_ was somewhat better, in that the dialogue
>captured the characters -- but if the characters were real, they
>were not especially sane; neither did many of their actions make
>sense.  They were more plausible before I started then after I
>finished.
>
>Other books, further in my past, had realer dialogue and
>characters; but it does not seem strange to me that the two I've
>read most recently don't.

In at least one other response prior to this one, I discussed my
overstressing realism in dialogue and characterization in my
posting.  As I pointed out in that response and in at least one
private mail exchange on this topic, many excellent contemporary
writers are unconcerned with realism in these senses. Invisible
Cities is an example, but you might make a case that Calvino's
working at the margins of fiction as we ordinarily understand the
term. Fiction, poetry, realism, dadaism, etc. are all categories
created mainly for critical or didactic purposes and many modern
writers have worked deliberately at the margins of these categories,
in part to illuminate their artificiality. Joan Didion is an example
of a writer whose fiction is closer to a 'classic' understanding of
what the novel is about.

Few SF writers, it seems to me, work consciously to redefine or
subvert the nature of their own tools (i.e., language and fiction
itself) in the way that certain non-SF writers like Calvino and at
least some of the other names on my list do. Most SF attempts a more
or less realistic presentation of events, although certain
techniques of the early 20th century avant-garde like stream of
consciousness and nonlinear temporality are quite common (notice,
please, that I said MOST SF, not all SF). Fiction that's structured
as strangely as Calvino's Invisible Cities, or (perhaps a better
example) his If On A Winter's Night A Traveller, is quite scarce in
the SF genre. I used realistic presentation of dialogue and
characterization in my argument because (rightly or wrongly) I
believe many SF writers, including Roger Zelazny, are attempting to
present characters and situations in a realistically convincing
manner. Furthermore, my recollection of Lord of Light is that it
dealt with a fantastic world, but that the main characters in it
were presented in an entirely realistic fashion (note for example
the 'scientific' explanation in the book of the origin of the gods
and their powers). In this sense, your invocation of other
contemporary writers' deliberate subversion of realism is beside the
point, since what I'm saying is that I believe that Zelazny was in
certain senses (but not all) attempting realism and that he failed.
And I fully realize I haven't read the book in ten years, and intend
to do so (this point was also made in another of my recent postings
on this subject, which you may care to read).

Please note also that I invoked Zelazny and Ellison to make a point:
that there are many so-called mainstream writers who are AT LEAST as
good as the best SF writers; I just don't personally think Zelazny
and Ellison are the best SF writers that can be invoked, but many
other people who post to this group do. Since no one has directly
addressed the central issues in my original response, I can only
conclude that in the future I'll have to attack only those writers who
EVERYONE will agree is bad so no one gets so riled up that s/he misses
my point.

>> because Zelazny doesn't really believe in these characters.  I
>> challenge the best of you out there to care about a character and
>> bring him or her to life for your readers when you yourself have
>> no faith in your own characters or any real interest in them
>> other than as devices to carry the plot along!
>
>I can't read Zelazny's mind, except such of it as he broadcasts.
>It seems to me that he does care about his characters.  Ignoring
>internal evidence in his books, he writes stories about the same
>characters and _doesn't_ try to publish them -- except once, in a
>short story collection which I can't find [help?], when he
>published one.  This doesn't quite sound like a sign of intense
>apathy to me.  Again, Mahasamatman strikes me as a more believable
>character than any in the Calvino, Didion, or Elkin I've read
>recently.

So we disagree on Zelazny. Chacun a son gout. The point I was trying
to make in all of this is simply that Steve Brust was wrong when he
said most of the best modern writers are writing in SF; you'd seem
to agree with me on that point. I have nothing against Mr. Ellison
and Zelazny; in the past year I've purchased both Madwand and
Shatterday in hardcover and read them both. I don't feel, however,
that they're the best people in the SF field, a claim I'm sure other
posters to this group would dispute. I picked on Zelazny and Ellison
because they're not my personal favorites; ANY SF writers I'd chosen
to criticize would have been SOMEONE'S favorites, so no matter what
I said I was bound to be a villain in someone's book.

>> "...Some call me Sam, and most call me ham, but you can call me
>> Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this believable or well-done?
>
>If you had read _Lord_Of_Light_ recently, I would flame at you for
>not checking your parody-quotation.  Sam doesn't say it; it's
>description and thus believable. It appears in the first and last
>chapters. Things being as they are, it foreshadows and summarizes
>the novel, sketching in a few sentences Sam's personality and the
>important conflicts and their resolution, and placing the novel in
>a frame.  Very well-done.

I found it rather silly and not well done at all. I admitted I
hadn't read Lord of Light recently, and the quote is clearly a
parody of the original. My parody DOES capture my own reaction to
the original passage, however, which I found obtrusive and
unrealistic. By the way, I read Lord of Light twice at the time, so
it's not like my recollections are based on a cursory skimming of
the book.

>> Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people...
>
>I hereby allow you, or encourage you, to stop reading SF.

Let me see ... anybody who doesn't agree with YOU and who thinks a
writer YOU like has certain shortcomings as a stylist shouldn't read
SF? Why do you find criticism of your personal favorites threatening?
Perhaps you're objecting to my reference to an SF 'ghetto.' It was
(again: I'm getting sick of referring back to the posting that
started all of this) in response to Steve Brust's claim that most of
the best writers working today are in SF, a statement I've heard
from other SF fans and writers which I take as evidence of a lack of
knowledge of and/or interest in fiction written outside the narrow
bounds of the genre. Ghetto was perhaps the wrong word, since it
implies an external cause for the ghettoization of its members; the
insularity of some SF fans is self-imposed.

Oh, yes, I've been reading SF since the age of seven (1952), so I
resent your 'encouraging' me to stop reading SF.

                                   -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  7 Jun 85 1318-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 85 1318-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #202
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 8 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 202

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Footfall (5 msgs),
                     Television - Space: 1999,
                     Miscellaneous - Criticism & Perry Rhodan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu,  6 Jun 85 11:49:27 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: FOOTFALL review (mild spoiler)

N-P ranking: rather better than LUCIFER'S HAMMER, considerably worse
than MOTE.

Short synopsis: LUCIFER'S HAMMER meets John W. Campbell's THE
ULTIMATE WEAPON.

FOOTFALL is a good example of the invasion-from-space defeated by
spur-of-the-moment super-science subgenre.  It's considerably deeper
than most of the earlier examples of the subgenre (like the Campbell
cited above), but it boils down to than in the end.

There is also an element of weird alien psychology, but to me the
Moties were lots more interesting.  There is somewhat less suspense
generated about what the aliens' real motivations are in FOOTFALL
than there was in MOTE.

Most of the book reads somewhat like HAMMER; there is the same sense
of "falling civilization" problems with food, transport, and the
social order, though things don't get nearly as bad as in HAMMER,
except for the constant threat of alien attack.  It's also vaguely
reminiscent of THE JUPITER THEFT (author forgotten, sorry),
particularly the scenes on the alien ship.

In short, I enjoyed it, and is has some nice, even very nice moments
(the bit about science fiction authors being used as military
advisors is great, and you can easily spot Heinlein!) but it isn't
in my must-read catagory.  You might want to wait for the paperback.

        - Mike

ps.  It also manages to avoid most of the preachiness about atomic
power that permeates HAMMER.  If anything, the preachiness here is
in our failure to industrialize space (by about 1990, the time of
the book, the Russians have a large moon base and refuse to let us
expand our ~5-man base, and we don't have a space station and they
do), and there are numerous pro-space weapons arguments, as we don't
have the weapons by 1990 and need them pretty badly.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 08:00 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Footfall - new Niven and Pournelle

I finished Footfall, the new book by Niven and Pournelle, a couple
of days ago. It's an alien-invasion-of-earth novel and quite well
done. It's kind of curious that there have been quite a few of those
lately: Gerold's Chtorr books and Battlefield Earth (even though the
invasion had already taken place) come to mind right off.

Anyone who has read any of their previous novels will recognize the
style and their method of story telling. The first 100 pages or so
deal with introducing the characters and setting up the story and
the last 400 pages deal with the actual invasion. As expected from a
Niven-Pournelle book, the aliens have their own complex society that
differs from ours in several ways. One of the few things that
bothered me about the book was the aliens' assumption that their
inbred customs would be the same as ours (the alien's idea of
surrender, for example, is significantly different than ours).
That's the only nit I have to pick with the novel.

Needless to say, this is hardly a review - call it a recommendation.
If you like alien invasion stories, Niven and Pournelle stories, or
both, you will like Footfall.

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Cover Art
Date: 7 Jun 85 04:13:05 GMT

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>       How many of you have seen the dust jacket on the new Larry
> Niven/Jerry Pournelle book "Footfall"? It is excellent. I even
> recognized the alien from the advance description I had of it.

I disagree.  The Fithp are the size of baby elephants, not full
grown ones.  And there is *no* fi' carrying a teddy bear in the
whole novel, not even Harpanet.  (If none of that makes sense, read
the novel.)

At least it wasn't giant chickens.  (Not yet, anyway.  Right, Alan?
Right, Dale?)

-Paul S. R. Chisholm
 {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
 {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL
Date: 7 Jun 85 07:37:23 GMT

lindy@vienna.UUCP (John Lindquist) writes:
>I just recently purchased the book FOOTFALL by Niven and Pournelle.
>I haven't seen anyone praise or critize the book.

Q&D non-review (since my real review is promised to a zine
elsewhere...)  I'm halfway through footfall (500 pages, more or
less) and I'm enjoying it. Well thought out, well plotted, decent
characters, and pretty cleanly edited. A lot of work has gone into
this book, and it is at least as good as Mote in God's Eye, which I
consider their best collaboration. If they don't blow the ending,
they have a real winner. After a string of blah to worse books, they
are definitely back on the right track. Hope they keep up the good
work.

(See, Jerry, I told you I'd keep an open mind on the next one. Good
job!)

From the misfiring synapses of:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: vienna!lindy@topaz.arpa (John Lindquist)
Subject: FOOTFALL
Date: 4 Jun 85 16:02:58 GMT

I just recently purchased the book FOOTFALL by Niven and Pournelle.
I haven't seen anyone praise or critize the book.  The two authors
are coming sometime in June to the Bay area for a autograph session
at a local bookstore.

My question is:
        Is it tacky to bring a different book to be autographed
        rather than the one the session is for?

As you can infer from my question I didn't think the book was "The
greatest......" (a reference to the front cover blurb).

However I would like to get their autographs.

john lindquist
ucbvax!olympus!lindy

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999.
Date: 5 Jun 85 16:15:55 GMT

> The series, in my opinion, relied to heavily on special effects
> and did not concentrate on the characters and plot as heavily as
> they should have to make it a very good series.

The problem with Space 1999 was (as is usually the problem w/ t.v.)
a lack of good scripts.  From what I know, lack of scripts usually
comes from lack of time to develop the scripts.  Lord Lew Grade is
famed for quickie Sci Fi productions.  Lord LOW grade :-) I remember
an abominable series (which I think they got some of the sets for
1999 from) in which the premise was another bunch of aliens out to
conquer earth.  The series was named something like UFO, and was set
in the 1980's.  The bad taste must be somewhere in the back of your
mind.

> If handled correctly the series could have become a cult series
> (almost as much as STAR TREK).But it was very badly handled and
> then to compound matters the show brought in Fred Freiberger to
> produce the show

I think it was more Low Grade's fault.  Look at his track record
with earlier productions.

> (after he had cocked up the third series of STAR TREK),and they
> bought in a shape changing alien?????

I dunno about having an alien regular.  I seem to remember a series
in the 1960's that did quite well with an alien regular.  The shape
changing bit became the catch all escape for the show, though.
(When in doubt, Maya can bail us out.)  They abused the character.
A MUCH more limited shape changer might not have hurt too badly,
although I never did quite understand how a normal sized woman can
convert her mass into a bumble bee and then into a ten foot alien
and then back to herself again.

> This really killed of the series in alot of fans eyes and did not
> help encourage new people to watch and like the series.

Again, I think it was the lousy scripts that abused the character
that had more to do with the death of 1999.  It was a pity that the
show didn't live up to it's potential, but any time a series takes
the easy way out (gadgets and bug eyed monsters instead of good
scripts) the same seems to happen.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Criticism
Date: 5 Jun 85 19:37:49 GMT

I was going to attempt a sort of point-by-point response, but what
the hell --- instead, I'll just try to write a cogent essay-let in
reply to the whole recent mess.

The point that I think has been offered is that SF writing is
terrifically derivative and (somehow) less ``good'' than mainstream
writing.  Just to warn everyone ahead of time, I don't feel that
this is really true: Sturgeon's Law applies to everything,
mainstream or not.  Furthermore, SF has the real advantage that it
still is a commercial medium, and therefore has (so far) been
largely spared the sterility that mars most ``literary'' fiction.
There is bad fiction in SF and Fantasy, no denying: I hate endless
hobbits with fake ID's as much as anyone.  And series books are
REALLY beginning to bug me.  But I still feel that the proportion of
good fiction in SF and Fantasy is *at least as high* and probably
higher, than I have seen in mainstream or literary fiction.

Those of you who are immediatly going to flame me because I believe
that most mainstrean and literary (e.g. _Paris_Review_) fiction is
sterile, go ahead; all I'm going to do from here on is explain what
I'm talking about and make an argument in favor of my point of view.

(flame point)

When I say ``sterile,'' just what am I talking about?  Good
question, and one in which to some extent I'm going to try to avoid
answering.  The reason I want to avoid answering the question is
that I believe it is as unanswerable as the question ``Just what is
it you mean when you say the word `red'?''  I believe this sterility
is directly perceptible by anyone who has learned to read fiction at
all.

Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were
never able to become engrossed in the story?  Where you were always
conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book?  Then I believe
you were reading something that I call sterile.

Now, note that two different people would believe different things
sterile.  I find it hard not to be conscious of ...reading ... the
...  book... (I promise I won't do it again) when I have read Moby
Dick.  In my case, this is for a paradoxical reason: the sentences
are so pretty, so nicely rounded and fully packed, that I find
myself admiring them rather than falling into the book.  Now that
may be a result of my partially-trained ``writer's ear'' but it is
none-the-less so.

I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure.  I very much
doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or
if it is, it is only because years of study have made the reader so
familiar with the language involved (which means learning how to
handle puns across several european languages which are written in
the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language barrier is
no longer a problem.  I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is sterile.

Bill has mentioned several times the various writers who are
involved in meta-fiction: Calvino has been prominent.  I don't feel
that meta-fiction is *inherently* sterile: _Cosmicomics_ is an
example of a break with conventional ficiton which I don't think is
sterile at all.  However, writing meta-fiction, writing fiction in
which conventions are challenged, is a risky business: it's hard for
the reader to co-operate in understanding the dream.  Calvino sems
to manage; for me John Barth does not.

It could be argued that I'm saying ``then good fiction is just what
you like.''  And in fact I am -- but the word ``just'' should be
deleted from the sentence.  I am in fact claiming that good fiction
is fiction in which a clear and strong dream is created, which is
formed out of the agreement between the writer and the reader to
take these little black marks and turn them into a vivid dream, a
way of creating clear memories of something that didn't happen, or
that happened to someone else.  I think anything that does this is
likely to be fun to read, something that is ``just'' what I like.
Anything that does not make this work may be in some sense admirable
(as I have long admired the creative effort and verbal trickery of
_F'sW_) but it is simply not good fiction.

Now, how does this all apply to SF, and the discussion that has been
going on?

The essential question to me is: does the proposed fiction create
this vivid dream?  Clearly, the first proponent of the ``SF is a
ghetto and it should be, 'cause it's bad'' theory doesn't feel so.
However, this does not mean that it is bad for everyone: perhaps
this is just a person who shouldn't really be (mainly) an SF reader.
But the idea originally proposed was that we who prefer to read SF
should get our minds out of the ghetto and find out what *real*
fiction is like.

However, my experience with what has been propounded as ``literary''
is that, for me at least, the ``literary'' fiction is nearly
completely sterile.  The few ideas that are proposed are puerile or
dull, the characters are often people who I wouldn't want to talk to
in person, and the situations are usually intolerably banal.  I
can't make the dream vivid: the author's style, choice of words,
non-standard sentence structure or simple lack of identification
with his own characters have made it impossible for me.

The usual response to this has been an essentially elitist one: ``if
you were a literary sophisticate, you wouldn't find it so.''  Well,
maybe so: but my experience with English Lit people has been that
becoming a ``literary sophisticate'' really means ``learn the code
words and accepted interpretations.  Learn to fit in.''  Perhaps
those of us that believe that there is more good writing in SF than
in mainstream are simply near-illiterates, as the more strenuous
pro-literary voices seem to have claimed.

On the other hand, maybe we really are seeing the Emperor's bare
ass, shivering in the cold that critical acclaim can't keep out.

A postscript: Bill Ingogly has mentioned _Lord_of_Light_ as an
example of SF that he disliked, especially mentioning the ``he was
called Mahasamatman, and Binder,... but he preferred to be called
just Sam'' section as being a part of the book that he especially
disliked.  The particular comparison he's used was to that awful
``you can call me Jim, or you can call me...'' comedian.  Well,
okay, clearly this business broke the clarity of the dream for Bill.

However, as a long-time student of the various sutras and storys of
the life of the Buddha, I really enjoyed it.  That was a very nicely
used parody or pastiche of a stylized phrase that happens over and
over again in Sutras and in Vedic literature, and really gave me the
feel that this was a story in the Eastern sort of world that the
book is meant to evoke.  If indeed the measure of ``literature'' is
the sophistication required to read it, perhaps -- just perhaps --
the sophistication that was lacking was not Zelazny's.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: cstvax!bobg@topaz.arpa (Bob Gray ERCC)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 13 Jun 85 03:57:35 GMT

The perry Rhodan series went up to edition 132 in the translation
from german into english (or rather american). No more have been
translated since that I know about. I read all of them when they
were first published.  (Just a temporary mental condition.) The
interest was lost in the British edition much sooner than that. As I
remember the film was originaly made in german and dubbed (very
badly) into english.  I have never seen it but I understand it has
been shown on the other side of the water.
        Bob Gray
        ERCC

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jun 85 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 85 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #203
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 203

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Aldair & Schenck & Wolfe &
                         Fantasy Recommendations,
                 Films - James Bond,
                 Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: ALICE THROUGH THE NEEDLE'S EYE
Date: 7 Jun 85 22:35:39 GMT

          ALICE THROUGH THE NEEDLE'S EYE by Gilbert Adair
                       Dutton, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     There was only one Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but that didn't stop
others from writing passable Sherlock Holmes pastiches.  There was
only one Lewis Carroll, but now someone else has attempted an Alice
pastiche--and done an acceptable job.  While it's obvious that it's
not Carroll, this is a reasonable imitation.  Parts of it are
Carrollesque, and it's only when taken as a whole that you realize
that it doesn't fit together quite as neatly, or contain quite as
many puns, as Carroll's work did.

     Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell the plot without ruining
the book (at least partially), so I'll just say, if you liked
Carroll's "Alice" books, try this one.  (The illustrations are nice
too.)
                              Evelyn C. Leeper
                              ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  7 Jun 1985 23:25:33-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Hilbert Schenck

> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA        (Jon Pugh)
> I just re-read a great story and wondered if anyone knew of
> anything else by the author.  The story is "The Morphology of the
> Kirkham Wreak" by Hilbert Schenck.  It appears in The Best SF of
> the year #8, edited by Terry Carr, and the credits list it from
> Fantasy and Science Fiction, Sept. 1978.
>
> Does anyone know where I can find more by Mr. Schenck, and is it
> up to snuff?

Glad to see another Schenck (pronounced "skenk", btw, rather than
"shenk") fan. My first Schenck story was "Battle of the Abaco
Reefs", which was nominated for a Hugo Award, and I've enjoyed his
work since. Some of his stuff is fair to middlin', some of it *very*
good. The two novels are a bit weaker than his short fiction, but
still worth reading. Following is a bibliography, first appearances
only. I don't have enough time to wade through my "best of" or other
anthologies to look for reprints.

"Three Days at the End of the World"    F&SF (Sep 77)   *
"The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreck"   F&SF (Sep 78)   *
"The Battle of the Abaco Reefs"         F&SF (Jun 79)   *
"Wave Rider"                            CHRYSALIS 5     *
                                        (ed. Roy Torgeson)
"Bouyant Ascent"                        F&SF (Mar 80)   *
"The Theology of Water"                 PERPETUAL LIGHT
                                        (ed. Alan Ryan)
"Hurricane Claude"                      F&SF (Apr 83)
"The Geometry of Narrative"           ANALOG (Aug 83)
"Steam Bird"            (serial)        F&SF (Apr-May 84)
"Silicon Muse"                          F&SF (Sep 84)
"Send Me a Kiss by Wire"                F&SF (Apr 85)

WAVE RIDER (Timescape, 1980) collection (includes stories
        above marked "*")
AT THE EYE OF THE OCEAN (Timescape, 1981) novel
A ROSE FOR ARMAGEDDON (Timescape, 1982) novel
        condensed in  SCIENCE FICTION DIGEST (Sep/Oct 82)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS
Date: 7 Jun 85 19:22:51 GMT

donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley) writes:
>I give up.  After going through the book for the twentieth time or
>so, I still have to admit that Gene Wolfe's THE FIFTH HEAD OF
>CERBERUS is my favorite work of sf, and very possibly my favorite
>book, period.  I have found something new every single time I've
>read it, which I think is the greatest and most difficult gift an
>author can make to a reader.  On this pass I finally figured out
>what Number Five's real name is.  In retrospect I probably should
>have guessed it sooner, but that would have taken some of the fun
>and suspense out of it!  Has anyone else had this experience?

The Fifth Head of Cerberus is also close to being my favorite SF
work, although Lem's Solaris and certain other works by other
authors are also contenders. It's an infinitely rich and rewarding
book, but reading Wolfe is definitely work. You've certainly beat me
on the number of readings; I've read it three times. It's a book I
recommend to anyone I talk to about SF.

Wolfe's short stories are also first-rate; check out The Death of
Dr.  Island And Other Stories And Other Stories. Actually, I can't
think of anything he's written that I haven't enjoyed, including the
mainstream novel Peace (at least it appears to be mainstream).

At the risk of starting more flames in the group on quality and SF
(:-), my opinion is that Fifth Head of Cerberus is his best work,
but I've only read the Book of the New Sun once so I haven't really
gotten into it. I'd be interested in hearing from other people in
the group on F. H. of C; does anyone else share our high opinion of
this book?
                                 -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 10:30:53 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Other Good Fantasy Recommendations and thoughts

As long as we're posting our favorite good fantasy recommendations:

RIDDLE OF STARS TRILOGY, by Patricia McKillip
  (The Riddle Master of Hed, Heir of Sea and Fire, Harpist in the
   Wind)

My personal opinion is this is one of the best works around, period;
in any case, it is good stuff.  Several notable aspects distinguish
it from most of the other fantasy around (i.e., the Tolkein clones
and other lesser questies):

  o Conflict NOT between good and evil.  Rare in a fantasy with
    industrial-strength conflict.  It's us vs them, but not a moral
    (or religious) issue.

  o Strong female characters.  The middle volume in particular.

  o Characters in a fantasy cosmos who are neither cute nor
    cardboard.  Even in Lord of the Rings you get the feeling that
    everything is a setpiece; that the nature of the characters, the
    mythic structure, etc., forces every word and act to be exactly
    what you get.  (It's well done.  This is not a criticism.)  In
    RoSt I have much more sense of real people, who periodically
    surprised their author by doing something completely different
    from what she had intended.  They also exhibit much more adult
    emotions and passions and subtleties.

  o Novel and constrained magics.  Lots of neat things that I
    haven't seen elsewhere (no spoilers here!), without the excess
    of the sort that has killed off Larry Niven's Known Space
    series, as well as much of Marvel and DC comics (absolute power
    corrupts the plot regularly).

  o The author clearly knew where the plot was going from Word 1.
    This becomes clearer the second or third time one reads the
    books.

I have minor criticisms (choppier writing in Vol I, imbalanced time
spent on specific getting from here to there, ...).  But no
complaints.

THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS, Poul Anderson

This is borderline -- it's fantasy that almost is science fiction.
What's in a name?

A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE, Peter S Beagle

One of my favorite opening lines: "The baloney weighed the raven
down."

THE PHANTOM TOLLBOOTH, Norman Juster, Ills. Jules Feiffer

and also some science fiction which looks a lot like, or masquerades
as, fantasy:

Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN n-ology

THE HIGH CRUSADE, Poul Anderson (alien invaders in [medieval?]
England)

Neveryonia books, by Samuel Delaney  (in moderate doses)

A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, David Lindsay

and a very strange book whose name escapes me, heavily laced with
erotic/pornographic interactions among strange creatures, in a
fantasy landscape, with lots of magnetism and silly science -- a
purely flakey book.  Not Phil J Farmer or anybody else well known.
I mean, this was really off the wall!

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri 7 Jun 85 10:25:10-PDT
From: Alderson@Score
Subject: V10 #178--Bond films

Although I don't want to turn this into a Bond-age list, I would
like to correct an error in the previous posting.  "Never Say Never
Again" is the original screenplay, co-authored by Fleming and
someone whose name escapes me, which they COULD NOT GET ANYONE TO
BUY!  Fleming turned the screenplay into a new novel, _Thunderball_,
and went on from there.  So it is only VERY loosely describable as
"a remake of THUNDERBALL."

And a vote for "On Her Majesty's Secret Service": This one was very
close to the novel in feel, if not in absolute text.  And I can
forgive anything to a movie with the opening that this one has.

                      *** SPOILER WARNING ***

Bond meets girl (Tracy?  It's been too long...) on beach.  (BTW,
"girl" is Bondian for "woman"; actress was Diana Rigg.)  Tries to
strike up little romance, ends up fighting for his life.  Has only
her shoes in his hands as she drives away.  Looks dead into the
camera and says, "This never happened to the other fella..."

                                        Rich Alderson@Score

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV
Date: 6 Jun 85 03:34:59 GMT

> The Thomas Covenant books started off with promise, and an
> interesting premise - that a leper is fundamentally different in
> his world-view from you and me. But fifty pages or so into the
> first book, the ten warning signs of mediocre fantasy start
> screaming at you. Giants, evil wizards, etc., etc., etc. And by
> the time you finish the first three, there's this horrible
> realization that this is a story that can and will go on forever.

   Interesting, I'm reading Mr. Tuckers presentation on what he
considers to be the problems in sf/fantasy today (sometimes
agreeing/sometimes not) and just when I began to wonder what his
views of the Covenant books are, this little bit comes up.  Well,
you have struck a deep cord with me on this one.  Namely this: I
consider the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant to be one of the best
books in the fantasy field (or any field for that matter).
Certainly in the top ten.

   I can remember many times getting into disagreements over people
about these books, and it has become apparent to me that no one who
has ever read them (or tried to read them) has been able to remain
neutral about them.  Either they consider it one of THE best stories
ever written or they despised it exceedingly (At least I have never
met anyone with a neutral opinion).

   Most of the complaints I have heard against this story are mainly
against the character of Thomas Covenant himself.  I will be the
first to admit that he is not your typical fantasy/sf hero.  I'm not
even sure you can classify him as an anti-hero (ala Elric).  The
inability to classify him is one of the reasons I have enjoyed him
so much as a character.  You can't pin the guy down.  Here is a
character who is who he is despite how the reader feels he should
be.

   Covenant is a Worm.

   This is the most commonly heard complaint about him from the
detractors.  He's always down on himself; he never allows others to
help him; he hurts others without seeming to care; And so on and so
forth.  I have only one thing to say: How in the world can he act
any other way?  Look at where the guy is coming from.  He's an
outcast from society and he knows it.  He has also got the brains to
realize that if he let's societies cold shoulder get to him (ie if
he begins to care) he will go nuts.

   In the story, the impossible (in his view) happens: He enters a
world totally unlike the one he lives in.  He is suddenly inundated
with Health and loving when he had just come to live with the idea
of never having those things again.  To keep himself from going mad,
he dis-believes it.  He says that he is only dreaming.  And he knows
that if he is dreaming, then one day he will wake up to find himself
once more a leper, and he can't face going through that again.  So
instead of facing a danger to his sanity, he refuses to believe in
his cure.  Despite all the evidence, the health, the loving the
others in the story give him; he stands strong by his leprosy.  It
is all he has left TOO stand on.

   In his article, Mr. Tucker complains about the introduction of
the generic fantasy elements into the story.  The point I think he
fails to see is that it is these elements that set of the whole
story.  This is not a fantasy novel whose main character happens to
be a leper; this is a story of a leper who must come to terms with
the nature of his disease when he suddenly finds himself in a
fantasy setting.

   Furthermore, the so-called generic fantasy elements are in my
opinion far from generic.  This book has some of the most creative
fantasy elements I have ever seen in any book.  Even Tolkien
borrowed heavily from mythology when he wrote LOTR, but Donaldson
had to create a totally new setting.  In the Land there were no
elves, dwarves, dragons.  Nor were there kindly old though somewhat
absentminded wizards (The Lords of Revelstone may have wielded some
"magic" but they were very naive in there understanding of it).

   The people of the land were quite diversified with many
fascinating backgrounds.  The Bloodguard with there Vow to the
Lords; the Waynhim and there rebellion against there brothers the
ur-viles; the Ramen and the Raynhim who they attend with a devotion
approaching a religion; and foremost, the Giants.  The Rockbrothers
and there story make one of the most interesting sub-plots to this
tale.  The very nature of it's telling ranks on par with mane "real"
stories out of earth mythology.  But of course, let us not forget
the other side...

   The "bad guys" (to use a generic term) were also quite unique
(except for maybe the cave wights who have many of the same
characteristics as trolls and orcs).  First there are the ur-viles,
an artificially created race who have no true ancestry.  They are
the only race in the Land who truely do not belong simply because
they were not a part of the "nature" of this world.  But even better
were the Ravers.  Possession may be an old mainstay of other fantasy
stories but nowhere other then the Covenenant books have I seen a
truly wonderful indepth look as to how possession affects the
possessed (actually this becomes one of the main themes of the
second trilogy).

   Finally, of course comes Lord Foul the Despiser himself.  along
with ranking Covenant as the best main character of any book I have
ever read, I place Foul at the top of any listing of antagonists.  I
could go on for pages about the nature of Fouls being (and give away
a major part of the story in the meantime).  Suffice it to say that
when I gave this book to a World Lit teacher of mine in High School
(a women who, mind you, HATED "modern" sci-fi/fantasy), she was
overflowing with comments on the symbolism involved in the
Covenant/Foul duo.  These two characters are perhaps the best
match-ups of protagonist/antagonist I have ever seen.  You think
that Sauron was a good antagonist?  Look closer.  The character of
Sauron never (and I do mean NEVER) surfaces in LOTR.  He's always in
the background setting up events, but you never actually get a look
at the guy himself, what his motivations are, that sort of thing
(though Tolkien does remedy this somewhat in "The Silmarillion").

   Anyways, sorry for going on so long about this but like I said, I
love this story and I will defend it against all critics.

Chris Andersen
UUCP:  tektronix!azure!chrisa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jun 85 0959-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 85 0959-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #204
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 204

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Ellison (5 msgs) &
                        Panshin & Yarbro,
                Films - Star Trek & James Bond (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  7 Jun 1985 07:25:42-PDT
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack
From: anything you want with TECO and DDT)
Subject: ``The writer concerned may know nothing about it.''

>      In regard to the highly subjective test we are offered for
> comparing books, I should like to mention an Asimov short story
> titled (as best I recall) "The Immortal Bard."  In the story, a
> university physics professor tells an English professor of a time
> machine he has built.  Already, we learn, he has used it to bring
> Shakespeare to the present.  The gentleman was so fascinated to
> learn that his works were still studied and performed that the
> physicist enrolled him in the English professor's Shakespeare
> course--which he proceeded to flunk.
>      In short, be careful when attributing brilliant craftmanship
> (sic) and subtle imagry (sic) to a favored author.  The writer
> concerned may know nothing about it.

Indeed, this reminds me of an Asimov anecdote (which was related by
Asimov, but I don't remember where so I can't quote), something
along the lines of:

Asimov was a member of the audience at a lecture where, to support
his thesis, the lecturer discussed one of Asimov's stories (no, I
don't remember which one).  As it turned out, the lecturer's ideas
concerning the story in question didn't jive with Asimov's, so
Asimov decided to liven things up a bit: he stood up and, after
obtaining the lecturer's attention, stated that the lecturer's
interpretation of the story couldn't possibly be correct because it
had never entered the author's mind.  Asimov supported this
assertion by stating that he should know -- he was the author.  The
lecturer responded with the only possible reply: ``so?''

In relating this anecdote, Asimov stated that he agreed with the
lecturer's response; as do I.

Kevin

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 8 Jun 85 03:20:11 GMT

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes:
>>      Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from
>> two episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'.
>
>This seems a little thin.  The producers would have had to copied a
>lot more than the IDEA from Ellison for him to win a copyright
>suit.  Ideas are not copyrightable, only the particular expression
>of those ideas are.  If you could sue a writer for stealing an
>idea, they could sue every writer in existence.  When was the last
>time you saw a TV show or a movie with an original plot?  A writer
>has to be very good just to come up with an interesting variation
>of an old idea.

I read somewhere that the settlement with Ellison cost them $70K.
(locus?)  There is a strong difference between reusing and idea and
rehashing a story. What is and isn't plagiarism is a very nebulous
point, but there is a big difference between building a new story
around an old idea (as Gerrold did with Trouble With Tribbles) and
what seems to have happened here. This isn't the first time
Hollywood has ripped off Harlan -- he and Ben Bova got a settlement
a number of years ago for a TV show that ripped off their short
story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. The reality is that SF authors get
ripped off a LOT, mainly because they seem to be afraid to fight
back, either independently or through their agents or SFWA. The
Mystery Writers group, on the other hand, has relatively little
problem because they DO tend to police their work. Harlan, who has
been around that industry for a long time and isn't known for his
timidity, is also not afraid to go for what he believes is his. If
other authors or the SFWA took a more active stance in hollywood,
perhaps hollywood would take SF a bit more seriously.

From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  7 Jun 1985 23:42:09-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Ellison & THE TERMINATOR

> From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
> In today's (May 30) Hollywood Reporter, there is a full page ad that
> reads:
>
> Exhibit "A"
> Press Release
>
> Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are pleased to
> announce that they have resolved their dispute regarding the
> motion picture The Terminator and Hemdale Film Corporation
> acknowledges the works of HARLAN ELLISON.  [In the ad, "Harlan
> Ellison" is in bold face]
>
> [then at the bottom, in small type]
>
> With special thanks to Destroyer Lawyer, Henry W. Holmes, Jr.
>
> Does anyone know what this is about.

The original poster asked for an answer by mail, but for the general
interest, I'm also posting this to SFL.

Ellison's lawyer brought suit against the producers of THE
TERMINATOR, claiming that the story concepts in the movie were too
close to the two OUTER LIMITS scripts written by Ellison --- "Demon
with a Glass Hand" and "Soldier".
        Personally, I feel that the similarities, while certainly
there, are too superficial for a lawsuit, but there was an out of
court settlement. The producers probably figured it wasn't worth
fighting.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: A BOY AND HIS DOG
Date: 8 Jun 85 06:53:31 GMT

> From: weitek!neal     (Neal B.)
>> Comes highly recommended.  Comments? Has anyone else ever seen
>> this one?
>> --Evan Marcus
> Yep. You may never think the same way about popcorn again.  Jason
> Robards is priceless as the Dog's telepathic voice.

Jason Robards did not provide Blood's voice. He played the leader of
the Downunder group. Blood's voice was done by a fellow named Tim
McIntire.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!julian@topaz.arpa (Julian Gomez)
Subject: Re: Re: A Boy and His Dog
Date: 9 Jun 85 06:08:17 GMT

> While the dog is intentionally the smartest and most worthwhile
> character in the movie, the ending line is barbaric and
> abominable.  I believe the author of the short story shares this
> opinion--it ain't in the story.

The movie version of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the most faithful
adaptions of a written work Hollywod has ever done.  The ending is
just as it is in the story, virtually word for word.  Some even
consider the movie a two hour lead in for the ending punch line.

Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
The Ohio State University
{ucbvax,decvax}!cbosg!osu-eddie!julian

------------------------------

From: sftri!rajeev@topaz.arpa (S.Rajeev)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog (spoiler)
Date: 9 Jun 85 22:48:58 GMT

> While the dog is intentionally the smartest and most worthwhile
> character in the movie, the ending line is barbaric and
> abominable.  I believe the author of the short story shares this
> opinion--it ain't in the story.

I dont think cannibalism is a great idea, but if that was the only
way to save that faithful canine, I can't blame the boy for what he
did; furthermore, I dont take it literally: I think it was just a
clever metaphor for the choice the boy had to make between
companions.

I must also quibble a bit here: "it ain't in the story" doesn't
necessarily mean the author didnt intend it -- he/she might just not
have thought of it.

...ihnp4!attunix!rajeev   -- usenet
ihnp4!attunix!rajeev@BERKELEY   -- arpanet
Sri Rajeev, SF 1-342,
ATT Info. Sys., Summit, NJ 07901. (201)-522-6330.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 8 Jun 85 11:49:20-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Galactic Pantograph

A couple of years ago, I asked Baird Searles at the SF Bookshop, and
he said that Panshin's problems with his publisher had been ironed
out and we could expect the book any time now. This is obviously not
quite true (either that or there were a LOT of errors in the
galleys...)

-Laurence

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: A MORTAL GLAMOUR by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro
Date: 7 Jun 85 22:36:44 GMT

              A MORTAL GLAMOUR by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro
                        Bantam, 1985,
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     While not strictly a horror story, A MORTAL GLAMOUR does have
its horrific elements.  Set in a convent in France in 1387, the
story deals with the repressed sexuality of the nuns there--many of
whom were deposited there by their families when they (the nuns)
would not agree to the marriages arranged for by their families, or
when their families could not arrange marriages for them at all.
One nun, Seur Aungelique, escapes to a nearby villa where the
Comtesse Orienne lives.  Here she sees "how the other half lives" as
she is a guest at one of the Comtesse's debauched parties.  Upon
returning to the convent, she is beset by "demons" who ravage her
nightly.  Her torments seem to be contagious, as gradually most of
the convent is taken over by these persecutions.  The priest sent to
cure them is no better, but his excesses are channeled in more
"accepted" paths.  Along with all this, we are given the Flagellants
and the Plague as minor(!)  characters.

     While the topic is of some psychological interest, one can't
help but feel that Yarbro is concentrating more on the sensational
aspects and less on what drives these women to madness.  A cover
blurb that talks about "ecstatic moans of pleasure" and "a
netherworld of debauchery and defilement" does not serve to
re-enforce the seriousness of this book.  But it's probably as good
(or better) than the usual best-seller.  Of interest to Yarbro fans
(and yes, she's still into elaborate descriptions of clothing!).

                              Evelyn C. Leeper
                              ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Star Trek
Date: 7 Jun 85 07:10:22 GMT

When I saw STAR TREK III I thought the distance was announced in
kilokems, perhaps this bit would have been better done with
subtitles.

Certainly the Klingons are going in for more comfortable bridge
designs.  No longer does the bridge crew have to be good at 'pole
clutching' (or was that the Romulans?). The captains no longer have
to sit in the corner waiting for the rest of the bridge to be built.

I hope that the Romulans are soon going to get a mention in the
films because Klingons aren't the only hostile aliens in the S.T.
universe and when you've seen one Klingon, you've seen them all.

                                        Andy T.

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@topaz.arpa (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: Book (and movie) titles
Date: 7 Jun 85 08:24:04 GMT

boyajian@akov68.DEC writes:
>The only problem I have with titles is when the title has no
>bearing whatsoever on the story. Take, for example, the latest Bond
>movie. What does "A View to a Kill" have to do with the film at
>all?

Jerry,
        Haven't seen the film (don't much like Bond movies) so I
don't know the plot, but I reckon that the title is a transformation
of a line in the traditional English fox-hunting (yes, we're still
allowed to do appalling things like fox-hunting over here :-( ) song
"D'ye ken John Peel" "from the view to the kill in the morning."  Is
that any help?

Kay.
mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Book (and movie) titles
Date: 7 Jun 85 23:33:37 GMT

All the Salzman-Brocoli Bond movies have used genuine Ian Fleming
titles although the stories long ago used to have any similarity to
the original. I suppose that 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service' was
the last one that had much to do with the book.

I'm open to correction (as always!) but I think that 'From a View to
a Kill' was a short story in the 'For Your Eyes Only' collection
(PAN books in the UK).  If they follow this principle then there are
still several spare titles left.

Anyway, who'd go to a movie with a Duran Duran sound track? :-)

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply
Date: 5 Jun 85 04:35:25 GMT

henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not.
>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. Just
>because a majority

Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but
you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For
edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by
R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michaelangelo is not "just another"
sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any trash
can, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may
believe otherwise.

>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have
>mine.

Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ???
(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary
masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!)

>for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry
>would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it would
>never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent book,
>but the field doesn't end with that one title).

Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is
published. DOes one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ???

Oz
{decvax|ihnp4|allgra|linus}!utzoo!yetti!oz
oz@yuyetti      (bitnet)

------------------------------

From: warwick!asz@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV
Date: 7 Jun 85 02:50:43 GMT

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>Whether we want to admit it our not, science fiction includes
>fantasy.

     I don't want to classify science fiction and fantasy under the
same banner. I think they are different, even if the boundaries are
a little fuzzy and the exact categories a bit difficult to specify.
Or can't I have them as different, because after all _you_ say they
are the same.

>Tolkein's works are finely crafted, well-written, and show an
>understanding of that element of mythos which is essential to good
>fantasy.

Tolkein's characters are the best crafted stereotypes I have ever
seen. How often did they get around to the basic pleasures in life,
like __x.

>And precious few of his imitators have bothered to understand and
>explicate that gut-level need in every human being for good against
>evil and magic against all with any more subtletly and finesse than
>a Ginsu knife commercial.

_Gut level good against evil_ I would say "you make me throw, but
I'm too kind.

>Jason wasn't exactly the nicest guy in the world, and Ulysses had
>some serious problems himself.

Thomas Covenant was hardly a great hero (being a rapist etc). I
think fantasy has managed to come up with the anti-hero since Jason
and Ulysses.  Ever read Moorcock (or maybe that's SF).

                                        --Alex
                        ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!asz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 10 Jun 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #205
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 10 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 205

Today's Topics:

              Books - Cullen & Eddison & Sucharitkul &
                      Zelazny (2 msgs) & Dover Press,
              Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs),
              Television - Dracula & Space: 1999 & The Prisoner,
              Miscellaneous - Perry Rhodan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@topaz.arpa (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: Other Good Fantasy Recommendations and thoughts
Date: 8 Jun 85 13:11:35 GMT

ddern@bbncch writes:
>and a very strange book whose name escapes me, heavily laced with
>erotic/pornographic interactions among strange creatures, in a
>fantasy landscape, with lots of magnetism and silly science -- a
>purely flakey book.  Not Phil J Farmer or anybody else well known.
>I mean, this was really off the wall!

I reckon you must be talking about "Astra and Flondrix", by Seamus
Cullen.  Well, what can I say about it? except that I recommend it
HEARTILY to anyone who can cope with non-prissy fantasy (and anyone
who loathes Tolkien ;-)).  Most (if not all) of the people round
here that I've lent my precious copy to have considered it one of
the funniest books they ever read.  Has anyone else out there read
it?  Has Cullen written anything else?

Kay.
mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@topaz.arpa (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re:  Problems with SF: Fantasy
Date: 7 Jun 85 09:02:04 GMT

lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley writes:
>Mistress of Mistresses by ER Eddison (also The Worm Ourobouros, if
>you like extended strategy, intricacies of politics, and swordplay.

At last! someone else who likes Eddison!  Personally, I preferred
_A_Fish_ _Dinner_in_Memison_, but all four are so enjoyable that
it's a *very* close thing indeed (apart from the spotty beginning
four pages or so of TWO).  Anyone else out there who appreciates
ERE?  BTW, for FRP people, I'm designing a campaign based around
TWO, TMG, AFDIM and MOM.... should be fun.  Any FRP ERE-readers are
more than welcome to make suggestions about it to me.

Kay.
mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay

------------------------------

From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 10:23:33 PDT
Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul: _read_these!_

I've been following SF-Lovers for a few months now, and I'm
surprised that no one has said anything about Somtow Sucharitkul's
Inquestor Series.  The books in the series are:

o  Light On The Sound
o  The Throne Of Madness
o  Utopia Hunters
o  The Darkling Wind

I'm not going to say anything about these books (no spoilers), but
this set of four novels is probably some of the finest F&SF to be
written in the last 20 years.  Admittedly, there must be a small
suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader, but
Sucharitkul's skill as a wordsmith more than makes up for the minor
inconsistencies that are the basis for the story.  I really can't
stress my delight with these books strongly enough -- every time I
have someone over who's interested in F&SF I drag them over to the
bookcase and beat them over the head with one of the paperbacks (in
some cases I've written the names of the books on a piece of scrap
paper and forced them to take it home).

But!  Don't judge the rest of Somtow Sucharitkuls' work by these
four books.  His other writing, with the exception of Starship &
Haiku, is trash (I was heartbroken!).  He even wrote a story for
the (gag! choke! barf!) "V" paper- back series called "V - The Alien
Swordmaster".  Spare toilet tissue...

Anyway: PLEASE do yourself a favor and beg, borrow or steal copies
of these books and read them.  They will become four of your most
prized possessions.

Jerry Hewett {crash!jerryh@ucsd}

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 11:00 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Recent use of computers in SF

To add one more line of defense for Roger Zelazny in connection with
the proliferation of computers in recent SF, I'd like to mention a
short story he did at least eight or nine years ago. It's called "My
Lady of the Diode" and has a briefcase-portable computer with rather
impressive abilities. The story has appeared in one of his more
recent anthologies - The Last Defender of Camelot or Unicorn
Variations, I believe. Good story.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: re: attacks on "Lord of Light"
Date: 6 Jun 85 22:27:45 GMT

donn@utah-cs writes:
>I have to agree with John Redford here, although I have some
>sympathy with Bill Ingogly's point.  I've read both Naipaul's A
>BEND IN THE RIVER and Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT and they are so
>different, in plot, style, characterization and intent, that
>comparing them on a sentence by sentence basis strikes me as an
>absurd exercise.

Now that I've read several responses to my posting, I have to agree
that it was a bad choice of books for a direct comparison. But as
I've pointed out elsewhere, 'tweren't the point of my posting
anyways ...

>I much preferred the other Naipaul novel I've read, A HOUSE FOR MR.
>BISWAS, which is a fictionalized autobiography of Naipaul's
>childhood in Trinidad.  Although HOUSE is equally pitiless toward
>its characters, they seemed much more human, and I was able to
>empathize with them almost in spite of the author...

I liked both books. It seems we're dealing with differences of taste
here, and perhaps we read fiction for different reasons. Certainly
(as you point out) some fictional characters aren't SUPPOSED to be
sympathetic. For a few additional examples, try Hazel Motes in
Flannery O'Connor's Wise Blood, or the evil protagonist (can't
remember the name) in Graham Greene's Brighton Rock, or Benny
Profane, the ultimate schlemiel in Thomas Pynchon's V. Antiheros
ain't always pretty to listen to, since they sometimes tell us
things about the human condition that we don't particulary enjoy
hearing.

>will say that while LORD is not profound, it is deeper than Bill
>Ingogly implies; ...  style is not as pedestrian as Bill would have
>it either, although it does have its weaknesses; ...  characters
>don't seem dead, as Bill would claim.

As I've said and said and said ... I'll have to reread L of L, since
I seem to have been somewhat unfair to Zelazny. Enough said.

>You shouldn't feel guilty about not reading boring classics, but
>you will probably feel chagrin if you overlook a work you lumped
>into that category and later on discover that it was brilliant

or that you enjoyed the hell out of it. Many of the people who
flamed me (or who otherwise think I'm a nut case) may not believe
it, but the reason behind my posting is that I LIKE many of the
authors I named, and I sincerely believe many people in this group
are denying themselves pleasure by not reading outside the genre.

>(Here's my little plug: a book that combines gritty realism with
>the head space of certain kinds of sf (such as Ballard or Dick) is
>FAR TORTUGA by Peter Matthiessen.  Try reading it and see if you
>don't get the same kick you get when reading excellent sf; I sure
>did.)

I totally agree.

>Trying to figure out what brought on this spasm of self-criticism
>in sf-lovers,

Some people find the self-criticism worrisome; I find it a positive
thing. It never hurts people (SF fans included) to take a long hard
look at what they're doing and maybe consider alternatives to the
habitual. A good dialogue (or even an outright disagreement) can be
stimulating and constructive, don't you think?

                                     -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 85 15:29 EDT
From: Denber.wbst@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Dover Press

I can only second the favorable comments that have appeared in this
digest recently about the Dover Press.  They also publish an
extensive line of music books, including orchestral scores, piano
music, and hard-to-find harpsichord music (like the Fitzwilliams
Virginal Book in two volumes).  Best of all, these are
well-constructed books - the paper is high-quality, and the pages
stand up to even the abuse they typically get on your average music
desk.  And if that weren't enough, the price is quite resonable.
(One of my favorite Dover books: The Space Child's Mother Goose).
By all means, check them out.

                        - Michel

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: RHPS -- To participate or not to participate
Date: 8 Jun 85 02:55:09 GMT

With regard to the Rocky Horror Picture Show, I have had the
privilege of attending several showings under the aegis of several
SF conventions held in Glasgow where it is a BIG favourite with the
fans. Under such circumstances, the audience is allowed (nay,
encouraged) to participate -- unlike at cinema screenings where such
activities (as throwing confetti and pieces of toast) are frowned
upon to say the least.  Viewing RHPS under such circumstances is a
unique experience and one not to be missed if the chance arises.

However, last Friday (May 31st) Channel 4 (probably the best British
TV channel at the moment) screened RHPS (the British TV premiere as
far as I'm aware) and I still enjoyed it!  I would say audience
participation certainly adds to the film, but viewing it in a
darkened, silent room allows certain subtleties to come through.

If Steven Brust is still interested, I have seen an (American)
import double album (therefore, beyond my price range for an L.P)
called The RHPS Audience Part-i-cipation Album (love that title!).
Sorry I don't have more details than that!

NAME:   John A Mariani
PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
UUCP:   ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA:  jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
POST:   University of Lancaster, Department of Computing,
        Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC
Subject: re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW
Date: 8 Jun 85 07:29:15 GMT

> From: topaz!lear      (eliot lear)

>> RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it was destroyed by the
>> audience participation.
>>              -- SKZB
>       It has been the audience that has kept RHPS alive all these
> years!  If it were not for the audience, Rocky would have gone in
> and out of the movie theatres just like any ordinary movie. The
> movie itself is not that funny - It's the audience that makes me
> laugh. However, if you do not like the audience participation, try
> renting a VCR tape and seeing it home. That way no one can spoil
> your movie.

> From: warwick!asz
> Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience
> participation).  Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy
> the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same
> without audience participation - it is essential to the whole
> ethos to have the participation.

Give me a break. Are you trying to teach your grandpappy how to suck
eggs?

(1) For a good many of us who had seen RHPS *many* times over the
course of three or so years without the audience participation
(a.p.), the movie is a delight all on its lonesome. The a.p. is
hardly "essential". Maybe it's preferential for you, but not for
everyone.  The a.p. was funny and enjoyable for the first few times,
but after a while it got very annoying. There are those of us who
like the *movie*, and would rather see *it* than the audience. I
haven't see RHPS in, oh, probably 5-6 years precisely *because* of
the annoyance of the audience. The a.p. is not the be all and the
end all of the movie. The movie existed without it before, and it
can do so again.

(2) It's debatable whether or not RHPS would have become a cult film
without the a.p. Other cult films, HAROLD AND MAUDE and KING OF
HEARTS to name two, certainly don't require a.p. And it seems to me
that the a.p. started *after* RHPS acheived cult status.

(3) RHPS did indeed start out as a stage play, but *without* a.p.
The movie was first released in late 1975, and the a.p. didn't get
into full swing until 1979 or so.

(3) As for renting a videotape, I wish I *could*. But, contrary to
popular belief, RHPS has *not* yet been released on tape (in the US,
at least). And it's probably because 20th Century Fox is afraid that
it will cut into the theater rentals, thus it's quite likely that
the a.p. is *preventing* Steven and I from enjoying the movie in the
privacy of our homes.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

From: vaxwaller!cw@topaz.arpa (Carl Weidling)
Subject: Re: Marketing PBS movies
Date: 3 Jun 85 23:24:56 GMT

> From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA
> I recently saw a suggestion from someone on this digest concerning
> PBS and the possibilities of their marketing some of the movies
> they've made.

        I recall seeing a version of "Dracula" on PBS.  Is this
another one of their movies.  Of all the vampire movies I've seen,
this version followed Stoker's novel most closely.  I believe the
count was played by Louis Jourdan.
                                -Carl Weidling

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 8 Jun 85 04:00:00 GMT

It's pretty difficult to defend this one, guys.  A show where the
major premise involves the moon getting blasted away from the Earth
at interstellar velocity?  (I worked this out once, and it would
take about 8 lunar masses of matter combined with 8 lunar masses of
antimatter to do this, never mind the G forces!)

Space 1999 had no concept of the nature of the galaxy, the distances
involved and the planetology.  Even Galactica was better (Although
not at handling the nature of the Galaxy).

Worst of all, the show took itself so seriously.  Real successes
like Doctor Who and Star Trek have had levity to keep them going
when the SF fails.  Space 1999 never came close.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Mon 10 Jun 85 00:31:28-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Prisoner (minor spoiler)

        Now that they are running The Prisoner in the NY area, I am
finally catching up with the series, most of which I missed
previously. Tonight WNYC ran 'The Chimes of Big Ben', for some
mysterious reason skipping the first episode.

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******

        The woman in this episode claims, in the space of a few
sentences, to be Estonian, and that her name is Nadia Nakovsky (or
something close to that). This is nonsense. That name is about as
Estonian as is Richard Nixon.  Even if she was born and raised in
Estonia, she would not have claimed that nationality: the Soviets go
by ethnic background, not birthplace in deciding such things.  Also
the language with which she speaks to her collaboraters is definitly
NOT Estonian, and very probably not Lithuanian either. It sounds
like Russian to me.

                    ****** END OF SPOILER ******

        [In case you're wondering, my ancestors came from a village
on an island off the coast of Estonia. And no, they had names, not
numbers.]
                                            Peter Trei
                                            oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: space "operas"
Date: 9 Jun 85 03:45:30 GMT

>[As for Perry Rhodan] There was supposed to be a film: 'SOS
>from Outer Space' - Where is it now?

There is a Perry Rhodan film called MISSION STARDUST (Spain/Italy/W.
German, 1968).  It starred Lang Jeffries as Rhodan and had Essy
Persson (I, A WOMAN) as the villian.  My best wish for you is to be
healthy, live long, and somehow never see the film.  Second best is
dying young and never seeing the film.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 Jun 85 0955-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jun 85 0955-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #206
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 206

Today's Topics:

      Magazines - SF Magazine Reviews,
      Miscellaneous - Alternate History In the Visual Media &
                  Sequels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: IASFM (actually, SF magazine reviews)
Date: 9 Jun 85 04:13:05 GMT

jpa144@cit-vax writes:
>I've been hearing a lot lately about how good Isaac Asimov's SF
>Magazine is.  From time to time I pick up issues of Analog or F&SF;
>Analog just doesn't run enough worthwhile stories for it to be
>worth my while to read through every issue, and F&SF is
>almost-but-not-quite worth it.  From what I hear of Asimov's, it
>has the highest level of quality of the three.

Well, I subscribe to five SF magazines, IASFM being one of them. I
personally wouldn't call IASFM the 'best' magazine on the market,
each of them specializes in a different form or flavor of the
SF/Fantasy genre and is aimed towards a different audience to some
degree. Rather than try a comparative analysis of the magazines
(apples to oranges, really) I thought it might be more useful to
start up a debate by describing each of the magazines emphasis, and
note their strong and weak points. Others will probably disagree,
but this seems like a lot more fun than listening to people tell us
how rotten SF is.....

Locus - The newspaper of Science Fiction
    This is a monthly semi-prozine about Science Fiction. If you are
    interested in SF, this is the magazine that will keep you
    informed. It carries information on who is buying, what they are
    buying, what has been sold, what has been published, and all the
    information you need to follow the publishing industry.
    Interesting columns, such as Richard Curtiss' discussions of the
    agent field, and lots of book reviews. This magazine also has
    the most complete and accurate con list you will find. Anyone
    serious about writing SF needs this magazine at least as much as
    Writers Digest, and it is well worth keeping around. This is NOT
    a media-fest gush at the godlike authors slime, Locus doesn't
    pull punches and DOES keep a close watch on the industry...

Analog - Science Fact, Science Fiction
    The home of Campbellian SF, specializes in literate, well
    thought out SF, tends towards traditional SF. I feel that Analog
    is finally rebounding after a long decline (starting during the
    latter days of Ben Bova acting as editor). Quality of the
    stories isn't consistent, but getting better. Of the four
    fiction magazines, I'm sorry to say that Analog is at the bottom
    of my preference list, but I'm sure others will disagree.

Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine
    If Analog is literate SF, IASFM is fun. Expect changes over the
    next six months now that Shawna McCarthy has moved on and been
    replaced by Gardner Dozois, one of the few people I can think of
    that might be able to keep the flavor of this magazine alive.
    This is the best market for new writers, and because of that
    there is a freshness to the writing.  They are also building a
    solid stable of pro's that keep the quality of the writing high.
    They tend to be light, enjoyable stories, nothing that requires
    a lot of brain thought, but that doesn't mean this stuff is
    schlock. Martin Gardner does a monthly brain game, which almost
    makes up for the fact that Isaac does a monthly editorial. The
    letter column is unabashedly gushing about how great the
    magazine is, to the point of being embarrassing. This is number
    three on my list of magazines.

Amazing Science Fiction Stories
    George Scithers, the man who made IASFM what it is, came to
    Amazing when he left that magazine. Amazing is as good as IASFM,
    but tends to cater to a slightly more sophisticated taste.
    Another good market for new writers, fiction tends to be a bit
    more thoughtful, not necessarily as optimistic, and quite good.
    Scithers deserves the Hugo's he's gotten for best editor. This
    magazine also has the film review column displaced by F&SF when
    they took on Harlan Ellison as media maven, but Baird Searles
    gives him a run for the money. I prefer this to IASFM, but its a
    tough call.

Fantasy & Science Fiction
    Edited by Ed Ferman, the best description of this magazine that
    I can come up with has to be eclectic fantasy. A very strong
    Fantasy bent, unlike the other magazines, this is almost
    impossible for a new author (although it does happen) and tends
    to be the genre magazine where the heavy authors publish. Harlan
    Ellison does a great media column (when he doesn't miss his
    deadline) and A.J.  Budrys does the best book reviews in the
    industry. This is much more a literary magazine than the others,
    and isn't out to win lots of subscribers, lots of advertising,
    or lots of anything.  F&SF is only interested in good fiction,
    and because of this I consider it the strongest magazine in the
    field, and the most consistent as well, because they don't try
    to follow the trends, they just try to publish what they like.
    Even the Isaac Asimov Science column each month doesn't
    significantly disrupt the quality of the magazine. My vote for
    the best Fiction magazine, as well as the most consistent one.

F&SF tends to be more difficult to find than the others on the
newstands, but it is worth tracking down. TSR has been trying to
improve distribution of Amazing, and IASFM and Analog seem to be
everywhere. All of them are worth reading, assuming you like their
style of fiction. Which one is 'best' depends upon that as well, and
you'll find as many people who disagree with what I say as you will
that agree...

:From the misfiring synapses of:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Alternate History In the Visual Media
Date: 7 Jun 85 22:36:15 GMT

                        THE ROAD NOT TAKEN:
               Alternate History in the Visual Media
                 Some thoughts by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The idea of an alternate history is not rare in science
fiction--a recent article the THE PROPER BOSKONIAN cited a
bibliography over over a thousand stories!  Why then, when it comes
to visual science fiction, is it so rare?  An examination of the few
examples one can find may help answer that question.

     Strangely enough, there seems to be only one film (as
distinguished from television shows or other visual media) that
deals with alternate history that has achieved any popularity in
this country, and that film is QUEST FOR LOVE.  Based on John
Wyndham's "Random Quest," this British film begins with a physicist
transferred to an alternate reality as a result of a laboratory
accident.  In this alternate world, he is not a physicist, but a
playwright--or rather, his counterpart is.  (The details of the
transfer are a little vague.)

     Now, admittedly, if one examines most science fiction premises
too closely, they tend to fall apart.  But this one falls apart
faster than most.  In this alternate world, World War II never
happened (more on this later).  This would explain the profession
change--it was to a great extent the atomic bomb that inspired the
then current generation of scientists (the film was made in 1971).
And the main character appears to have been born before the
alteration (to borrow Kingsley Amis's term), so the question of
"would his parents have met, etc.?" does not really arise.  But the
background doesn't make sense.

     Problem #1 is the base premise--that the alternate branched off
from ours in 1938.  By 1938, Hitler had been in power for five years
and Japan had occupied Manchuria for two, so that the prevention of
World War II at that time was highly unlikely.  In fact, the general
consensus seems to be that the seeds of World War II were sown by
the Treaty of Versailles, so this film is about twenty years late in
its placement.  One might call this problem the ignorance of causes.

     Problem #2 is trickier.  One of the little touches that gives
the main character a hint of what's going on is a headline
indicating that John Kennedy has become the new head of the League
of Nations.  Since the internal time of the film is post-1963, our
protagonist finds this a bit odd, to say the least (never mind the
League of Nations bit).  But it's even odder than he thinks--one of
the factors that got Kennedy into the public eye was his war record.
Another was his good showing against Nixon's poor one in the
debates.  Nixon, in turn, was running because he served as Vice-
President under Eisenhower, who certainly was elected on the basis
of HIS war record.  One might claim that Kennedy would have gone
into a political career anyway, but I think that his age (or rather,
lack of it--he would have been only 51 years old when the film takes
place) would have delayed his career considerably.  This sort of
problem might be called the ignorance of effects.

     At this point, the difficulty becomes clear--to do a good
alternate history, one must understand history not merely as a set
of dates and events, but as a chain of causes and effects.  This is
more depth than film producers usually have to deal with.

     American TV hasn't done much better.  There exist a few stories
dealing with this topic.  TWILIGHT ZONE's "The Parallel" has
Astronaut Robert Gaines go up into orbit and black out, only to find
himself back on earth (having somehow soft-landed the capsule!).
But it's not quite the earth he remembers: he's now a colonel, not a
major, Kennedy isn't the President, his house has acquired a picket
fence, etc.  The story never really deals with any implications of
these changes--the man who built the Panama Canal in the alternate
world is not the same as in this one (Gaines is checking items in an
encyclopedia), but future history after that seems remarkably
similar to our own.  STAR TREK's "The City on the Edge of Forever"
deals with alternate history as a sub-species of time paradox story.
If Kirk saves Edith Keeler in 1930's New York, her pacifist
activities will keep the United States out of World War II until
it's too late, and the Axis will win (why the Japanese don't bomb
Pearl Harbor, or why their bombing doesn't cause our entry into
World War II, is never made clear).  OUTER LIMITS touched upon the
idea in "The Man Who Was Never Born." And I can't help but feel that
ONE STEP BEYOND must have done something similar.  But the one-hour
(or half-hour) format seems to be too limiting for this theme.

     The best visual alternate history piece I have seen is a BBC
television play, AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE.  Made as three 50-minute
episodes, it has time to develop the ideas that the concept (the
Germans invaded Britain in 1940 and won the war) imply.  In
addition, its setting--that of the production of a television series
set in Britain in the late Thirties and early Forties-- gives the
author a chance to do some explaining to his audience without
appearing to lecture.

     It's the small touches that make AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE work.
For example, it has been pointed out that the drab clothing can be
attributed to the lack of the "Mod revolution" that swept our
Britain in the Sixties.  And the cars parked in the background of
the outdoor scenes are Volkswagens and such.  There is some
discussion of how the United States stayed out of the war (again,
this ignores the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, which wouldn't
seem to be connected to Germany's success or failure in invading
England), but the concentration is much more on the present, and how
the characters cope with the ever-present totalitarian government.
There is a semblance of the old structure, but it is firmly under
the control of the Third Reich.  With the passing of time, the Reich
has changed somewhat (the old timers are gone, and a new generation
of leaders has replaced them), but the reminders of the beginnings
remain: the "inferior races" have been exterminated or sent to labor
camps, the racial purity laws are still in effect, etc.  There is,
of course, an Underground (no, not the subway!).  They want to use
the television show AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE as a means of passing
messages--after all, everyone watches it.  The government wants to
use it also--to convince everyone that everything has turned out for
the best.  Yes, the British were brave during the war, etc., but
when the time came, they saw what was right, laid down their arms,
and joined forces with the Germans to bring law and order back to
Britain.  The main character, Peter Ingram (played by Kenneth More),
is the author of the television show AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE, and
needless to say, he has problems keeping everyone happy, or at least
not ready to kill him.

     As an alternate history, it is well thought out, and succeeds
in large part because it doesn't spend a lot of time trying to
dazzle the viewer with all the changes.  It sneaks up on you, the
same way the truth snuck up on the main character in QUEST FOR LOVE.
Little comments that the characters make seem "off", and then you
finally realize what is going on.  (I read the entire novel THE
DRAGON WAITING feeling that things were a bit "off", but it wasn't
until the afterword that I realized that it was an alternate
history.  This is a little more obvious than that.)

     So why are there so few good alternate history stories in the
visual media?  Simply put, it takes more thought than most producers
are willing to give it.  Even if a writer turns in a good script, he
ends up having to explain it to a producer, who really wants
something he can sign Tom Selleck and a bunch of teen-age girls in
wet T-shirts for.

                               Evelyn C. Leeper
                               ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Sequels
Date: 9 Jun 85 05:46:08 GMT

> From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
>>A readership that wants a sequel to every novel. . .
>      There is an implication here that there is something
> automatically wrong with series, trilogies, series, and so on.  If
> a series of whatever length is desired and enjoyed, it is because
> the writer has created a character, a society or a concept that
> has captured the imagination of readers.  If the point of interest
> is not covered in detail from beginning to end, there may very
> well be an interest in more.  The fact that the author may have
> intended this from the beginning does not change the validity of
> the concept.  The market will decide if the writer is correct or
> not.

   I used to be a hot critic of sequels.  Mainly because I felt that
they destroyed the meaning of the original books that they are
trying to mimic.  I still feel this (though not for EVERY sequel),
but I don't criticise the authors anymore.  When I went to the last
Boskone, I went to a panel where they discussed sequels and their
merit.  I came out with one conclusion.  That is, if I were an
author of a successful book and the publisher came and offered me a
nice advance on a sequel, I would find it hard to refuse them.
Blame the authors for being weak in not refusing, but consider first
what you would do in this situation.  You have to get bread on the
table somehow.

>      Sometimes a series should have stopped at one.  Sometimes
> not.  I've never heard anyone suggest that Asimov should have
> stopped with _Foundation_.

   Actually, the first three Foundation books are an anthology of
short stories written by Asimov several years ago.  I don't think I
would technically call the stories sequels.  However,
_Foundations_Edge_ is most definitely a sequel.

> I'm glad that Steven Brust gave us more than one novel on the life
> and times of Vladimir Taltos.  (On the other hand, many people
> have said that Herbert *should* have quit after _Dune_.)

Same here.

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 Jun 85 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jun 85 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #207
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 207

Today's Topics:

             Art - Cover Art of New Poul Anderson Book,
             Books - Donaldson & King & Smith & Wolfe,
             Films - James Bond,
             Magazines - Magazine Reviews
             Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 10 Jun 85 19:48:27-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Cover Art -- THE GAME OF EMPIRE

The latest of Poul Anderson's Flandry books is out.  This one is
less about Flandry than about his daughter, Diana (illegitimate, of
course).  The book itself was not half bad, although I think I've
read too many of these, since I had it all figured out by page
38....  But the cover art is really good.  It is by Victoria Poyser,
and not only is it appropriate, it is pretty, and catches one of the
best narrative portions of the book quite well.  Obviously she read
the book before doing the cover.  Yay.  I was getting a little tired
of being looked at like I crawled out from under a damp rock every
time I bought a Flandry book just on account of the scantily clad
females decorating the covers.
                                Rob <sra@mit-xx>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 85 19:46:13 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  Thomas Covenant...

I object not so much to the pathetic Covenant, nor to the
interminable drawing-out of the plot, as I do to the language
itself.  The books are not good to read in the same way some things
don't taste good.  There are so many instances where a given word
could be used, and Donaldson picks a word that looks great, sounds
great, but is inexcusably obscure.  I think I have an adequate
vocabulary -- at least, the tests tell me so.  I don't even mind
learning new words.  But it is distracting to run into a word and
have to derive its meaning from context, or worse, put the book down
and look it up.  It makes me too aware that I am, as someone put it
recently, reading...a...book...

And even if that were not a problem, he is not consistent in his
word use.  It's as though he were saying to himself, "Oops, I've
gone ten pages without a fancy rare word; better stick one in."  It
is important that language serve to make the story progress, not to
demonstrate the vocabulary of the author.  Such words stand out
against the rest of the novel like bits of gristle in an otherwise
nice piece of meat.  They just don't fit.

Doubtless you have some defenses for this line of attack also...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: ttidca!dewey@topaz.arpa (William Dewey)
Subject: Stephen King a.k.a. Richard Bachman????
Date: 10 Jun 85 05:57:26 GMT

Having just finished the book 'Thinner' by Richard Bachman, I am a
bit puzzled by the small white wrapper which was around the book
upon which was printed 'Stephen King writing as Richard Bachman'.  I
have seen a reference to this in net.sf-lovers pertaining to the
book 'The Long Walk' and the people at B. Dalton said that there
were several other books by 'Richard Bachman/Stephen King' which
would be out soon.  On the book jacket of 'Thinner' is a picture of
Richard Bachman which looks nothing like Stephen King, at least not
the Stephen King in the American Express adds, and the book is
dedicated 'To my wife, Claudia Inez Bachman' just coincidentally,
Claudia Bachman took the photo of the author which appears on the
jacket.

Any info on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill Dewey

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Space Opera - STAR SMASHERS etc.
Date: 10 Jun 85 18:02:50 GMT

How can anyone mention STAR SMASHERS in the same sentence with E.E.
Smith PhD.?  I grew up on Doc Smith and while much is dated (Skylark
was decades old when it was first printed, I believe) no one has yet
captured sense of wonder quite like doc. I would no more think of
satirizing him than I would of breaking stained glass church windows
from the 13th century. I realize some would, but I consider them
subhuman. Sorry, that's how I feel about it.

"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS
Date: 10 Jun 85 04:08:48 GMT

> At the risk of starting more flames in the group on quality and SF
> (:-), my opinion is that Fifth Head of Cerberus is his best work,

        It is close, but for sheer breadth I like "The Book of the
New Sun" better. They are both absolutely amazing works.

> group on F. H. of C; does anyone else share our high opinion of
> this book?

        While I normally do not make responses of 'I agree' (I mean
what is the point?), I can not resist. "Fifth Head" is one of the
great books of SF, and I can do no better than quote Anatomy of
Wonder:

        "These summaries cannot touch the complexity, meaning
        and sheer beauty of these excellently written stories."

                   Joe Kalash
                   kalash@berkeley
                   ucbvax!kalash

------------------------------

From: ihuxn!res@topaz.arpa (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T Information Systems
From: - Indian Hill West; formerly)
Subject: Re: IASFM
Date: 10 Jun 85 22:42:31 GMT

> I've been hearing a lot lately about how good Isaac Asimov's SF
> Magazine is.  From time to time I pick up issues of Analog or F&SF
> ... From what I hear of Asimov's, it has the highest level of
> quality of the three.  Does anyone out there have any opinions on
> the magazine?

I have subscriptions to all three and look forward most to the
monthly arrival of IASFM, then next most eagerly for Analog, and
finally for F&SF.

I feel that IASFM has lots of quite good work in most issues, and
has a variety of stories so that I generally find one story I like
very well, one I don't really care for, and the rest are
entertaining to me if not memorable.

Analog has a number of interesting fact articles as well as fiction,
which I find enjoyable if there is not an overabundance of fact
articles in the issue.  The fiction seems too homogeneous somehow.

I keep debating whether or not to renew my F&SF subscription.  When
they publish SF it is usually quite good -- some new work by one of
the big names -- but I am not into fantasy and horror stories enough
to find the rest of the magazine worth the money.

Incidently, I dropped my subscription to OMNI magazine some time ago
because I got tired of the strong emphasis on the paranormal and on
flying saucers.  I can tolerate fantasy in an SF magazine, but I
cannot tolerate garbage.
                                        Rich Strebendt
                                        ...!ihnp4!iwsl6!res

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 7:34:04 EDT
From: James Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #204

In response to all those who are putting down the new Bond movie, '
A View To A Kill ' with apparently not having seen it, I thought I
would straighten out some misconceptions being as I have seen the
movie.

First of all, the title has very much to do with the plot.  I can't
give it away but suffice to say that the character played by
Christopher Walken is psychotic enough to want to be able to see
mass destruction from his personal blimp.

Second, Duran Duran provided only the title cut.  And if you are
just too sophisticated to listen to DD, I suggest you hide out in
the bathroom until the tune ends.  Don't miss the exciting first
scene, though.  Bond does some fantastic skiing once again.

Finally, it seems whenever a new Bond movie is released a slew of
critics sit on the sidelines ready to skewer it.  I've heard many
comments that this is the worst Bond movie.  It definitely beats
Moonraker and Never Say Never in my opinion.

                                Thank You,
                                Jim H

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OFF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV
Date: 7 Jun 85 19:30:38 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
         PART V: Rays Of Hope Through The Clouds Of Despair
                          by Davis Tucker

Lest anyone think that I am an ill wind that blows no one good, this
installment will deal with the positive side of science fiction,
those authors who are not hacks, who try to improve with every
novel, who are and with luck will remain truly creative. These are
the people to whom science fiction needs to turn in its hour of
need, either to re-read a classic work or to eagerly await a new
one. These authors have shown a commitment to their craft which is
sadly lacking in many of their cohorts. There is much that we can
learn by reading their works, lessons of love and pain and joy,
despair and hatred, how to write a good sentence and a good
paragraph, that turn of the phrase which sticks in the mind, plots
that illuminate their characters, characterizations that are real
and fascinating and wonderfully developed, dialogue that is not
hokey, and so on.

First on the list would have to be GENE WOLFE. From the very
beginning, Wolfe has shown an incredible command of science fiction,
the English language, and literature at its highest form. His short
stories are beautifully crafted gems, fully-fleshed and filled with
substance. His novels are so far above the usual run that it's not
fair to describe them as science fiction, and taint them with that
sordid connection.  I could go on and on for days - let's just leave
it with the statement that "The Book Of The New Sun" tetralogy
revolutionized the field in a very quiet way, and made some authors
see that they had been sitting on their Neaderthaloid preconceptions
for far too long. In some isolated instances, a writer who had been
in a slump, or a funk or a stew, had, after reading Wolfe's
masterwork (conceivably), got off his butt and said "Hey - he can't
do that! I gotta get out there and show this jerk I can write as
good as he can!" And lo and behold, the quality of the genre has
improved slightly, almost imperceptibly, since Wolfe has sprung his
surprise on us. Unlike many, Gene Wolfe can justifiably say that the
whole of science fiction is better for his having been a part of it.
It's too early to tell, but "The Book Of The New Sun" may well turn
out to be a turning point for science fiction. Let's hope so...

ORSON SCOTT CARD is another. His work shows nothing but quality,
pure and simple. Even when he retreats to an overworked theme, he
brings something new and refreshing to it. There are a finite number
of themes in the universe, and it all has been said before, but Card
really goes to great lengths to provide a new viewpoint.
"Unaccompanied Sonata" is an extremely well-written short story, a
tribute to all that is art and all that is an artist, that still
contains all of the trappings of a science fiction story (even down
to the surprise ending). "Hart's Hope" is the best fantasy novel I
have read in years, a novel that transcends its genre as all great
literature should. The best example I can think of to introduce
someone to Card is his short story "A Plague Of Butterflies".  It's
all that you can ask for in science fiction or fantasy. Card is one
of the few new authors who has consistently avoided the pitfalls of
fame, who has avoided insidious sequelization and has pursued his
own muse to the exclusion of the illusion of popularity.

BRIAN ALDISS has been around for years, unheralded in America,
except perhaps for his editorial work on the Golden Age Of Science
Fiction, "Billion Year Spree", and "Galactic Empires". It is ironic
that this extremely experimental writer should gain his acclaim for
compiling stories of that formulaic time. From such diverse works as
"Galaxies Like Grains Of Sand", "Starswarm", "Barefoot In The Head",
"The Saliva Tree", and "The Malacia Tapestry", Aldiss has put
together an oeuvre that shouts and whispers at the mind and the
heart. Some of his work is highly disturbing, malevolent. Some of
it is blissfully pastoral. To read him at his pinnacle, pick up
"Helliconia Spring" and "Helliconia Summer", his two latest novels.
You will be lulled into the dreams of a master at work, reading
novels that grip the spirit and move the soul, watching characters
that you care about live and die and fail and succeed and grow up to
have their children desert them, or stand by their side.
Three-dimensional is the best phrase to describe Aldiss' work.
Nothing is left unpainted, and the reader is always left with a
sense of having read about much more than was on paper. One
fantastic descriptive fragment illustrates what I mean - in
"Helliconia Summer" he described the last breaths of dying men as
"apostrophes on the possessive case of life". *That* is great
writing.

J. G. BALLARD is another unrecognized giant. Perhaps it is because
his work is much more reminiscent of surrealist literature (such as
Borges) than of science fiction. And given the usual science fiction
optimism, Ballard's dark and oppressive tone doesn't quite fit in
with the run of the mill. He is not a flowery writer, nor is he
given to overemphasis.  His moods and textures sink into the psyche
and resurface much later.  His work is often concerned with the
human implications of technology, not in the facile and glib manner
we have come to expect ("Gee, Biff!  If I get inside a computer,
will I be able to get out?"), but with depth and disturbing clarity.
From "The Drowned World" to "Chronopolis" to "The Subliminal Man",
Ballard has shown us the dark side of psychology and symbolism, the
overwhelming nature of what we do to ourselves in the name of
progress.

R. A. LAFFERTY may seem a frivolous inclusion here. To be honest,
sometimes his writing style gets to be infuriating, but what he is
trying to say in his own convoluted manner is important and
interesting enough to bear with his lapses. And often a second
reading will show those apparent lapses in a different light. "Past
Master" and "Fourth Mansions" are stylistic masterpieces of
psychological insight and just plain weirdness. His short stories
are often blunt and not articulated well enough, but still far above
the pack - especially the collection "900 Grandmothers". Lafferty
digs deep into uncomfortable territory with a distinctive style that
challenges and provokes and cajoles the reader.

URSULA LE GUIN - what can anyone say that hasn't already been said?
Sure, she's written some fluff, but by and large, she's managed to
write fantastically and consistently, and has improved with the
passage of time. She's great. Her newer novels and short stories
show an incredible grasp at greatness, especially "Malafrena" and
the collection "Orsinian Tales", neither of which, coincidentally,
are science fiction.

I'm going to included SAMUEL R. DELANY mainly because I hold the
hope that he has another novel of the stature of "Dhalgren" in him.
In many ways, Delany is a wild talent, writing a wonderful paragraph
here, a fantastic novel there, but sprinkling them amid inexplicable
humdrum.  Delany at his best is the premier stylist of science
fiction, and it is his lot in life to be saddled with the epithet of
being a "science fiction writer" in the eyes of American publishers.
I do not profess to fully understand "Dhalgren", but I appreciate it
as much as my flawed understanding permits. Delany has lent a
serious air to discussions of science fiction literature, which has
been a welcome change from the "Who Predicted What First" arguments
that previously held sway as the field patted itself on the back for
predicting all sorts of marvelous inventions. Regardless of his
flaws, and he does have them, Delany is a consummate artist.
"Dhalgren" is the "Ulysses" of science fiction.

There are many more that I should include, many more that I should
not, much that should have been said about the above, but time does
not permit.  I regret the omission of many new writers for whom I
have high hopes.  Well, that's just one man's opinion. Tune in next
week for "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VI: The Short
Story Mentality".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 11 Jun 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jun 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #208
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 208

Today's Topics:

              Books - Science Fiction Poll & Tolkein,
              Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (3 msgs) &
                      New Space-Related Ride

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa
Subject: SF Poll. Top 40 authors. Notes on format etc.
Date: 9 Jun 85 07:30:48 GMT

        First off, i get the distinct impression that many people
didn't vote for a book because they assume that everyone else voted
for it - bad idea. If you like a book, and it's SF, vote for it, it
doesn't matter how "well-known" or old it is. This is supposed to be
a poll of the CANONICAL SF books - that is all the books which
(most) people think everyone should read.
        Secondly, don't vote for "the <mumble> series of books" this
will only work if _I_ know the title of the <mumble> series.
        In a similar way - don't say ALL of <mumble>'s books should
be in the list, such votes are immediately discarded since they add
nothing to the poll.
        Note that this is a poll of the _BOOKS_ which you think
should be read by everyone interested in SF, i don't care if you
think Heinlein is God, just telling me so without recommending any
of his books means that nothing you say counts. VOTE FOR BOOKS.
        Finally a lot of people wrote me to complain about the books
in the list so far. Please remember i am only REPORTING the current
state of the poll, if you have some book you like and it isn't
mentioned write in and vote for it.

        About classification: it isn't necessary to supply me with a
description of the entire book and where it fits in in the genre,
something simple like one the following tags will do: first contact,
faster-than-light, subgenre creation, many worlds, historical,
fantasy, subworld creation, hard science, unique conception,
exploration, interspecies relationships, psychology, linguistics,
anthropology, religion, space-opera, whimsy, rites of passage, fun,
adventure, superior writing, sword and sorcery etc.
        About the postings: ideally i would like a list ordered
alphabetically by author with the titles of each authors books in an
indented list following the authors name. But that isn't a necessary
requirement. (It would be a big help though, since i receive about 3
letters a day each with about 20 books).
        To whet your appetite and maybe jog your memory, here is a
list of the top 40 most cited authors so far:

Asimov, Isaac
Asprin, Robert Lynn
Bester, Alfred
Bradley, Marion Zimmer
Bradbury, Ray
Brin, David
Brunner, John
Brust, Steven
Clarke, Arthur C.
Clement, Hal
de Camp, L. Sprague and Pratt, Fletcher
Dickson, Gordon R.
Donaldson, Steven R.
Eddings, David
Farmer, Philip Jose
Ford, John
Gibson, William
Haldeman, Joseph
Harrison, Harry
Heinlein, Robert A.
Herbert, Frank
LeGuin, Ursula K.
MacCaffrey, Anne
McKinley, Robin
May, Julian
Niven, Larry
Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry
Panshin, Alexei
Piper, H. Beam
Pohl, Frederick
Rosenberg, Joel
Smith, E.E. 'Doc'
Stasheff, Christopher
Tolkien, J.R.R.
Vance, Jack
Varley, John
Wells, H.G.
Wolfe, Gene
Wyndham, John
Zelazny, Roger

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

Subject: Sauron's character
Date: 11 Jun 85 00:48:38 PDT (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

I have seen a couple of remarks concerning characters in Lord of the
Rings, particularly Sauron, which I think deserve response.

Suggestions that there are flat characters in it greatly surprise
me, since I feel that I know many of them now as people, that I
would recognise and could talk with many of them as people, were I
to meet them.  But one person's meat is another's dioxin, and this
may be a matter of taste, or the way one perceives things.

However, complaining about a lack of characterisation for Sauron
seems strange to me, and this is why: from the point of view of
those who compiled this history (primarily Bilbo and Frodo, with
advice from Gandalf and others of the Wise), Sauron really wasn't a
person: he came closer to being an elemental force, a disembodied
power.  While he was not quite as inanimate as an earthquake or a
landslide, his mind (that of a fallen Maia) was nothing that the
hobbits, or humans, could understand.  They could only see him as a
remote power of malice, driven apparently (and according to
Gandalf's word) by lust and fear, but not in ways that meant
anything to them.  To give a contrast, Denethor was much above
Pippin in social stature, power, learning, aim, ambition -- in many
ways, Pippin's superior, and very different from him.  Yet Pippin
could understand him, feel his griefs and his victories, fear for
him, and love him: he could imagine what it was to be in Denethor's
place.  No hobbit could feel any such understanding for Sauron.  (It
is true that the wise could, to a certain extent: Gandalf and
Galadriel both knew something of Sauron's mind, and could determine
in advance how he would react to a particular situation; but for
Sauron's position in the story to have benefited from this
knowledge, it would have had to be passed on to the hobbits.  And
how would even Gandalf have done that, assuming he wanted to?)

Nor did Sauron apparently want or encourage any such understanding.
He hid himself far from all his enemies, shrouding himself in
impenetrable shadows even deep within Mordor, always sending out his
lieutenants and slaves to do his tasks, driving them and sensing
through them, not to emerge or reveal himself until his final
victory in the War of the Rings.  Even the use of his right name was
forbidden among his servants, who must always refer to him obliquely
as "Lugburz" (Black Speech for "Dark Tower").

This incomprehensibility, the sense of an enemy beyond any
understanding, and therefore much more to be feared, is not merely
carried across well in Lord of the Rings: it is all-pervading.

Nor did Tolkien "rectify" it in Silmarillion: Silmarillion is
written from the point of view of those who could understand a
Maia's mind, some of whom were in fact there during Morgoth's
rebellion, when Sauron was first seduced.  What comes to us from
them are the insights that only creatures somewhat like him could
have had.  This is a very different perspective from that of Lord of
the Rings, because its authors were very different from those of
Lord of the Rings.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 08:33 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Problems in SF

THE PROBLEMS OF DAVIS TUCKER'S PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY

First off, as the person responsible for part 2 or your response,
I'm really rather sorry about asking you if you thought you were
Ghod - we all have off days and I guess that was one of mine. I'm
also disappointed that people on the net would stoop to sending
personal attacks to you rather than replies on the net where
everyone can read them. Come on folks, at least have the guts to
stand by what you say. Onward.

In my opinion, the reason you have drawn such heated response (which
may have been your intention to begin with - heated debate, that is)
is the attitude you seem to take in your messages. It struck me as
being arrogant to say the least. If your purpose in the Problems
With SF series was to get people to read other forms of literature,
you certainly went about it the wrong way. When you mercilessly
attack something near and dear to someone, you put them on the
defensive - something SF fans have been on (not as much lately) for
a good while. Had you begun by telling us that you also enjoyed
reading for fun and then had gone into persuasive arguments in
favor of broadening our reading horizons (something I'm entirely in
favor of - there's a lot of excellent work being done outside of SF
that deserves to be read) you might have had more success. Instead
we got, "That sucks, this doesn't, only an idiot would read that
crap." Of course, you didn't use those words but that was the
impression many people got from reading your messages.

In your A SHORT RESPONSE you tell us "I realize that what I say is
my opinion."  Right after that you say "You may think that Norman
Rockwell is vastly superior to Van Gogh, but you would be wrong."
You've just contradicted yourself (I doubt you'll agree with me,
though). If I like Rockwell better than Van Gogh does that mean I'm
wrong? No, it means my opinion is different from yours. All a critic
is is someone who has studied a certain subject significantly more
than the average person. Their opinion may be more learned than
mine, but mine is still valid! As you said, lighten up. You also
claim to support your opinions with logic and fact. Crap. You give
us your opinion of what is bad SF or bad fantasy and claim it is
logic? The only "fact" you used is a quote from Phillip K. Dick.
You're very proud of it, aren't you?  You joyfully tell us that the
"majority of responses have ignored the main point of each essay.
No one chose to argue with Phillip K. Dick..." What can I do? I
could give you a quote from me but you wouldn't accept it because my
opinion would be wrong (to you). Remember, regardless of his stature
in the field, P.K. Dick was giving his OPINION in the quote you
used!

Why do you assume all readers of science fiction believe that
everything they read is incredibly wonderful literary art? Just like
you, I read and enjoy "trash" novels. Novels that are fun to read. I
don't think Battlefield Earth was literary art, but it was a Hell of
lot of fun to read. This, I believe, is where You read for fun, but
you also read for enlightenment into the human condition or
whatever. I can get reality every day for free, I don't need to dish
out money at the bookstore for it too. (No, that doesn't mean I
don't read anything but "trash." I read a large number of books each
year and have read quite a few I'm sure you would approve of.
However, I don't feel it necessary to force others into my mold.)

In closing I'd like to mention something I learned when I took a
Shakespeare class a few years ago. These days, the Bard is
considered to be one of the greatest of writers. During his day, his
plays were considered to be trash.  No reputable library had copies
of them. They weren't literature then, they are now. Interesting. In
future generations, the books you have spent so much time touting
may be unknown and the books you have called trash may be considered
classics.

That's all for now.

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply
Date: 9 Jun 85 06:01:08 GMT

> henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not.
>>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else.
>>Just because a majority
>
>Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but
>you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For
>edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by
>R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michelangelo is not "just another"
>sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any
>trashcan, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may
>believe otherwise.

Quality may exist, but it exist only to the person deeming what
he/she considers quality.  There is no, *NO* absolute measure of
quality.  I veritably refuse to believe that there is.

>>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have
>>mine.
>Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ???
>(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary
>masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!)

Ah, so if someone like #OFTB, he is therefore delusioned?  Perhaps
he should be re-educated to remove this delusion?

>>for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry
>>would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it
>>would never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent
>>book, but the field doesn't end with that one title).
>Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is
>published. Does one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ???

Sometimes, yes.  If you want something bad enough, you have to
struggle to get it.

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE
Date: 7 Jun 85 03:55:24 GMT

> 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van
> Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is bad
> art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them is to
> lump greatness with mediocrity.  Otherwise, there is no basis for
> *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is incredibly
> egocentric.
>                                          Davis Tucker

     There is a distinction between good art and bad art, but that
distinction is completely relative to the person drawing the
dividing line.  There is no *absolute* distinction.

     Also, what is wrong with a just plain "I like it"?  You can
listen to a thousand reviews on a story, movie, play, etc.; but the
final judge in the matter is you.

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

From: utzoo!kcarroll@topaz.arpa (Kieran A. Carroll)
Subject: New Space-Related Ride
Date: 9 Jun 85 19:53:35 GMT

Are you interested in space travel?
How about science fiction movies?
How about Douglas Trumbull's new "Showscan" process?
How about amusement park rides?
How about motion-base flight simulators?

If you're interested in any of the above, you may be interested in a
project that's going on here in Toronto, Ontario.  A private company
has rented room underneath the CN Tower here to put together a
unique attraction.  Called something like "Ride into the Universe,"
it comprises a motion-base (like the ones airline and military
pilots are trained to fly airplanes in) with a cab holding 40 (!)
people, decked out to look like the inside of a futuristic passenger
rocket.  There are sound-effects and lighting controls to help set
mood.  The operators have commissioned a movie from Douglas Trumbull
(the special-effects genius behind 2001, Silent Running, Brainstorm,
etc.), using his new Showscan process (where the film is shown at a
much higher frame rate than normal, resulting in much greater
realism (I'm told)).

The movie will be shown on a screen at the front of the cab.  The
movie depicts the launch of a spacecraft, seen from the inside, from
the Earth's surface to the orbit of Jupiter. While this goes on, the
cab will lean back 45 degrees, and start shaking and vibrating, with
sound effects to simulate rocket noise. The whole process is
computer controlled, and sounds mucho impressive to me.  I can
hardly wait!  The opening date for the thing is sometime in
September of this year.  (and no, I don't work for the place.)

I learned about this in the "L5 Talk" at the Ad Astra SF convention
here in TO, this weekend.  Similar attractions to open soon are (a)
the Photon Impact (or Splat, or Great Canadian Adventure, or KAOS,
or whatever; you and your friends get guns, and run around shooting
at each other) type game, using optical guns, and
computer-controlled sensing of hits and scoring, inside an old
roller rink converted to look like the set of a science-fiction
movie, and (b) the new IMAX movie, The Dream is Alive, photographed
during various space shuttle flights, due to open here at Ontario
Place this September.  For SF/Space/film/gaming enthusiasts, it
looks like TO will be a good place to be in the near future!

Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jun 85 1003-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #209
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 209

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Ellison (3 msgs) & Wolfe,
                 Films - Sequel to Alien & Rocky Horror &
                         Warriors of the Wind,
                 Television - Space: 1999 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 11 Jun 85 17:28:43 GMT

chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
> off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. The reality is
> that SF authors get ripped off a LOT, mainly because they seem to
> be afraid to fight back, either independently or through their
> agents or SFWA. The Mystery Writers group, on the other hand, has
> relatively little problem because they DO tend to police their
> work. Harlan, who has been around that industry for a long time
> and isn't known for his timidity, is also not afraid to go for
> what he believes is his. If other authors or the SFWA took a more
> active stance in hollywood, perhaps hollywood would take SF a bit
> more seriously...

How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence?  The idea
of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee another writer
won't think of it again... and invent story lines around it.

Harlan's stories may have been innovative in their day, but that
doesn't mean that they are innovative now.  Thus it seems
presumptuous for him to conclude that he was ripped off.

Terminator is somewhat more unique than a robot cop story.

- Lord Frith
UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root
ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Ellison, THE TERMINATOR and the Destroyer Lawyer
Date: 11 Jun 85 04:47:22 GMT

> From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
> In today's (May 30) Hollywood Reporter, there is a full page ad
> that reads: Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are
> pleased to announce that ..  [then at the bottom, in small type]
>
> With special thanks to Destroyer Lawyer, Henry W. Holmes, Jr.
> Does anyone know what this is about.

Just to add to Jerry Boyajian's excellent answer, with regard to the
"Destroyer Lawyer" bit --

this refers to Steve Gerber's legal battle with Marvel Comics over
the ownership rights to "Howard the Duck". Gerber and Jack Kirby
brought out a comic called "Destroyer Duck" in which Henry W.
Holmes, Jr. (Gerber's lawyer in his case) appeared in super-hero
garb.

Hope this clears up the small type for Michael Wahrman.

I'll get out of your way now .. g'day !

NAME:   John A Mariani
PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
UUCP:   ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA:  jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
POST:   University of Lancaster, Department of Computing,
        Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 11 Jun 85 23:10:59-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison (i.e., Plagiarism) ...

From: rayssd!m1b@topaz.arpa (M. Joseph Barone)
> Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from two
> episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'.  The episode names elude me
> but the plots were: 1) the soldier from the future, Quallo
> Kaprikni (sic?), and 2) Bob Culp as a robot from the future with a
> glass hand ('Demon with a Glass Hand'?).  He therefore sued for
> copyright infringement and won.

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
> This seems a little thin.  The producers would have had to copied
> a lot more than the IDEA from Ellison for him to win a copyright
> suit.  Ideas are not copyrightable, only the particular expression
> of those ideas are.  If you could sue a writer for stealing an
> idea, they could sue every writer in existence.  When was the last
> time you saw a TV show or a movie with an original plot?  A writer
> has to be very good just to come up with an interesting variation
> of an old idea.
>
> I enjoyed the Terminator, even though I couldn't find a single
> element in the plot that hadn't been used before.

From Spider Robinson's story "Melancholy Elephants" in the book of
the same name (TOR, 1985):

    "... Remember the /Roots/ plagiarism case?  And the dozens like
it that followed?  Around the same time a writer named van Vogt sued
the makers of a successful film called /Alien/, for plagiarism of a
story forty years later.  Two other writers named Bova and Ellison
sued a television studio for stealing a series idea.  All three
collected.
    "That ended the the legal principle that one deos not copyright
/ideas/ but /arrangements of words/.  The number of word
arrangements is finite, but the number of /ideas/ is /much/ smaller.
Certainly, they can be retold in endless ways [sic] --- /West Side
Story/ is a brilliant reworking of /Romeo and Juliet/.  But it was
only possible because /Romeo and Juliet/ was in the public domain.
Remember too that of the finite number of stories that can be told,
a certain number will be /bad stories/."

This is an interesting perspective.  But before I'm willing to give
up, I'd like to at least know the order of magnitude of the number
of ideas.

Incidentally, the last sentence quoted above is my response to "The
Problems of SF Today".  We need to have writers who write bad books
so it will enable other writers to write the good ones.  If everyone
were writing good books, we'd run out a lot sooner.  (:-)

Bruce Leban     ...hplabs!leban
                leban@hplabs.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 01:08:06 pdt
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Wolfe

Fifth head of Cerberus is definitely my favorite.

I thought The Devil in a Forest was almost as good, though it has a
more narrative flavor.  After five readings there are many remaining
puzzles - who was the saint?  was Wat also the barrow man?  What
historical references am I missing?  The theme of the book seemed to
me to be the mixed nature of good and evil (I have argued with Donn
about this).

-s

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 85 15:51 PDT
From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Aliens

From the LA Times Calendar section, June 1st.  Reprinted wihout
permission.

"BELIEVE IT OR NOT -

When last seen in "Alien" (1979), chief operating officer Ripley
(Sigourney Weaver) was playing Sleeping Beauty in the Nostromos
escape pod. According to the next script, she'll awaken from
hibernation some 50 years later, along with Jonesy the cat, in the
tentatively titled "Aliens", the long-awaited 20th Century Fox
sequel (written and directed by James Cameron) to begin filming this
fall in London. But will anyone believe her story?

Discovered by the crew of a salvage ship, Ripley's erratic behaviour
- and the mysterious deaths of her fellow crew members (in the first
film) - leads to her inquisition. The trial, in turn, results in a
return visit to the decidedly strange planet that spawned the alien
monster.  There, the explorers discover a slew of aliens, of various
forms, including close look-alikes of the original ravenous fellow.

- From Pat H. Broeske"

------------------------------

From: warwick!alex@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter)
Subject: Re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW
Date: 11 Jun 85 06:43:32 GMT

>> From:        warwick!asz
>> Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience
>> participation).  Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy
>> the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same
>> without audience participation - it is essential to the whole
>> ethos to have tthe participation.

>(1) For a good many of us who had seen RHPS *many* times over the
>course of three or so years without the audience participation
>(a.p.), the movie is a delight all on its lonesome. The a.p. is
>hardly "essential". Maybe it's preferential for you, but not for
>everyone.
>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

Perhaps a few more smiles would have been in order. I was merely
saying that most people prefer RHPS with a.p. This does not make you
wrong. Oh, and RHPS IS available on video in Britain - pity you're
in the USA.

As a matter of interest, how many RHPS fans out there listen to the
soundtrack and do you do so for the music or to re-create the film ?

                                                --Alex
                        ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!asz

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 23:06:57 PDT
Subject: NAUSICAA - Warriors of the Wind (Movie)

I have just seen the trailer to a new film to be released real soon.
Entitled "Warriors of the Wind", it is the english adaption of a
Japanese epic "Nausicca." [With an um-laut over the last A]

This is a very good film.  Seeing it in a language I didn't
understand, I was fascinated by the visuals and intrigued by the
story.

The interesting aspect I loved was the non-human life (lower
animals) deciding to end the human wars, by removing the humans!

And the music is exceptional..

Am I getting to biased?  I hope the adaption works...sigh.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 09:29 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Spaced 1999

I agree that the show had bad scripts galore.  That is one of the
major factors for it's demise.  However, we must give credit where
it is due, that is to both Martin Landau and Barbara Bain.  Yucko!
It made me hurt just to watch them.  I swear if Barbara ever had a
facial expression, I would have died!  I have to go back and watch
those Mission Impossibles to see if they did a better job.  God, I
hope so.  They were worse than the damn scripts (or lack thereof
:-).

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999, Gerry Anderson and Lew Grade
Date: 11 Jun 85 01:51:57 GMT

ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes:
>Sci Fi productions.  Lord LOW grade :-) I remember an abominable
>series (which I think they got some of the sets for 1999 from) in
>which the premise was another bunch of aliens out to conquer earth.
>The series was named something like UFO, and was set in the 1980's.
>The bad taste must be somewhere in the back of your mind.

This is in defence of Lord Lew Grade.  May I add this is an action I
never thought I'd take!  It is easy enough to slander LLG's work, in
particular some of the films he has produced i.e "Raise The
Titanic".  However, let us not forget that it was LLG who bankrolled
"The Prisoner" and all of Gerry Anderson's series.

This leads us to another argument .. GA's work! Personally, I loved
the puppet series and often quote them as the reason I became
interested in SF in the first place. Here in Britain, many of the
puppet shows are being repeated. "Captain Scarlet", made in 1966 (or
thereabouts) and therefore nearly 20 years old, still looks pretty
good (a darn sight better than "Terrahawks") and the story line --
Earth under attack by zombies from Mars -- isn't all that bad! If
you like seeing puppets bleed, this is for you!

Space 1999, discussed several times in this news group, came up to
the bat with two strikes against it (is this the right
Americanism?).  First, the puppet shows which preceded it; second,
the "Star Trek" which preceded it! Any show (and as far as I'm
aware, there has only been "1999") in which a group of people trek
round the stars is right up against it! We can only compare it with
"Star Trek" and perhaps I'm being biased in saying it would have to
be a damned good show to compete. Still, I would argue that the
first season (with Barry Morse as Prof. Bergman) had some pretty
good stuff in it. The second season (which Mr. Morse decided to
leave -- hey, did they ever explain Prof.  Bergman's disappearance?
-- stop the Moon, I want to get off?)  was "big monster of the week"
was really terrible. As for Maya, well, that was too obvious a move
by far! ST was a popular show with a popular alien (probably the
most popular ever, until ET showed up!)  so we'll have one too!  But
what really caused me to write was the UFO comments.

UFO, to my mind, was not that bad a series! It was far superior to
"1999" and some of the characterisation (especially Commander
Straker) was very good indeed. Here was a commander who was not
afraid to make decisions that might be unpopular with his
underlings, even if they meant death for some of them. A man so
dedicated to his work when forming SHADO he lost his wife and child.
I would go so far as to say this is one of the most realistic
characters ever presented in TV SF.

And as for the special effects! In one particular episode I saw
about 2 years ago at a con, featuring George Cole (at one time known
as "Flash Harry" in the St. Trinian films but now as "Arfur" in
"Minder" -- who is probably "Flash" grown up, now that I think about
it!), there was a car - UFO chase. The cuts between live action and
models were invisible and the climax of the car being forced to
crash at a petrol station drew massive applause from the con
audience -- who had clearly forgotten just how good UFO really was.
Perhaps we (the people who grew up with GA productions, starting
with "Torchy The Battery Boy", "Twizzle", "Four Feather Falls" and
"Supercar") were all too young when UFO came out and the adult
situations were not what we expected.  Perhaps we just wanted to see
"Thunderbirds" again.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Let me just finish by saying if
LLG is fodder for attack, I think you Americans should consider some
of your own producers. Glen Larson isn't as good as he used to be,
and as for Irwin Allen ...

I'll get out of your way now, thanks for listening!

NAME:   John A Mariani
PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
UUCP:   ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA:  jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
POST:   University of Lancaster, Department of Computing,
        Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 11 Jun 85 08:27:17 GMT

        When I worked the calculation to push the moon out of the
Earth's orbit and out in to space I got little more than 1/200 th of
a lunar mass needed converting into K.E.
        This is because the moon was not travelling at interstellar
velocity but at a much slower sub-light speed. In the calculation I
assumed a terminal velocity of 0.1c ,mainly because if the moon went
faster than 0.15c then an Eagle would never catch it.
        The reason for the moon meeting so many planets is that it
was propelled into a 'time warp' and emerged in an area of space
where the stars were packed much more tightly together (!).
        I am not saying that any of the above is possible or correct
but if enough psuedo-science is applied, any sci-fi concept can be
explained away. This is why Dr Who and Star Trek got away with it
(warping the 'fabric' of space, indeed).
        Many of the 1999 episodes were set in interplanetary space
and didn't include planets anyway e.g. BETA CLOUD,LAMBDA FACTOR.
        I don't think B.G. was a better series ,they relied much
more heavily on 'library' shots e.g. seeing those same three vipers
taking off each episode, and whenever I saw it I couldn't help
feeling I'd seen this episode before. For me ,SPACE 1999 was the
best sci-fi series of the 70's.

Andy T.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jun 85 1028-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #210
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 210

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Donaldson & Ellison,
                    Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs),
                    Miscellaneous - Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 10:29:18 PDT
From: Chris Yoder <engvax!CHRIS@cit-vax>
Subject: Wounded Land series

     How does one express superlatives enough for the Chronicles of
Thomas Covenant? There is so much going on in these books that it
amazes me every time that I reread the series. Everything that Chris
Andersen says about the books I agree with.  As creative fantasy
it's a work of art in my own (not so) humble opinion.  Sure, there
are some similarities between it and LoTR, just as there are between
trees.  I find these similarities superficial, and I also find that
they aren't the kind of gross copy-cating that makes the Sword of
Shannara such an infamous book.  Personally, I believe that the
Wounded Land series aren't so much good fantasy as an exposition on
ethics couched as good fantasy.

     Thomas Covenant is a scuzwad, a jerk, an *sshole, and very,
very real.  I agree that he's not so much an anti-hero as a wimp who
refuses to fight.  If you don't hate him w/i the first 50 pages, you
haven't been reading.  But why do you hate him?  It's not because
he's evil, but because he's so ineffectual.  He cannot, dare not,
believe in the Land or become a power in it because then he will
lose touch with the leprosy that will slowly eat away his body 'till
he dies.  All who accept and love him in the Land need him to defeat
Lord Foul or they will die.  Thomas Covenant must finally walk the
thin line between his unbelief and the love that he has not
experienced in the "real" world to a solution that he can live with.
By the end of the third book you either (partially) understand
Thomas Covenant, or you stopped reading the series 1/2 way through
the first book.

     If you read these books carefully, you will see much of human
nature at work.  You will see love, love that believes w/o
confirmation, hate, doubt, bone headed perseverance, in short the
whole gauntlet of human emotion.  These books, read deeply, are not
for the faint of heart.  I believe that they are also classics in
every sense of the word.  Read them, dig into them, enjoy them, be
disturbed by them, hate/love Thomas Covenant, but read these books
(think I'll go reread them again myself!).

Chris Yoder
UUCP {allegra|ihnp4}!scgvaxd!engvax!chris
ARPA engvax!chris@cit-vax.ARPA

------------------------------

From: cvl!hsu@topaz.arpa (Dave Hsu)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 12 Jun 85 03:08:49 GMT

>> off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. The reality is
>> that SF authors get ripped off a LOT, mainly because they seem to
>> be afraid to fight back, either independently or through their
>> agents or SFWA.
>
> How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence?  The
> idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee another
> writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines around
> it.

I seem to recall that OMNI mentioned this case 4 or 5 years ago.
Ellison was apparently approached by (was it CBS?) a network for a
storyline, and the 'Brillo' concept was the one they presented, only
to be deep-sixed.  Imagine your surprise if somebody produced
something remarkably similar to a design of your own AFTER you've
shown them how it works.  Gee, we'd all go out, solicit inventions,
turn them down, and then mass market the good ones for free.

dave

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999
Date: 11 Jun 85 21:41:08 GMT

I was a long-term fan of previous Gerry Anderson series like
Supercar, Fireball XL5, Thunderbirds and Stingray and it always
struck me at the time what an achievement it was to make puppets
look and act like humans.

It took Space 1999 and its predecessor UFO to make me realise that
he could also make humans look and act like puppets!

(BTW - who remembers Four Feather Falls; or should I look in
net.trivia?)

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999
Date: 11 Jun 85 18:30:43 GMT

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>Space 1999 had no concept of the nature of the galaxy, the
>distances involved and the planetology.

I have to agree.  We could even hold a contest to see who can come
up with the most incongruities and logical flaws.  Two of my
favorites were the never-ending supplies of people and "Eagle" space
craft.  They seemed to loose at least one and usually several of
each every episode without creating any shortages, or even much
concern.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Criticism
Date: 7 Jun 85 18:58:52 GMT

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>>is really true: Sturgeon's Law applies to everything, mainstream
>>or not.
>I completely agree; one of my responses in this exchange made
>exactly this point (though I mistakenly attributed Sturgeon's Law
>to Arthur Clarke). I have never made the point described here; if
>you think I have, I've either failed to communicate correctly or
>you've misread me.

note please that I am not replying only to you -- one reason that I
wrote this as an essay in itself was that it was not only your
criticism to which I intended to respond.  So, since I didn't make
it clear, I'll do it explicitly for everyone to see

I AM NOT CRITICIZING BILL IN PARTICULAR -- AND THE POINT I WAS
RESPONDING TO HERE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE BY (I've lost his/her first
name) TUCKER.  I did an F of Bill's article for convenience, and
because I wanted to respond in particular to points that had been
made in his letter, too.

>>Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were
>>never able to become engrossed in the story?  Where you were
>>always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book?  Then I
>>believe you were reading something that I call sterile.
>>
>>Now, note that two different people would believe different things
>>sterile.  I find it hard not to be conscious of ...reading ... the
>>...  book... (I promise I won't do it again) when I have read Moby
>>Dick.
>
>As you point out, this is the problem I have (or had) with Lord of
>Light.  I found some of his techniques intruding on my enjoyment of
>the story.  Do you find Nabokov's fiction sterile, by the way?

I blush to admit that I haven't read much Nabokov, except for
interviews with him.  When he was widely available, I was considered
``too young,'' and there is now so much back stuff to read.

>He was a *very* self-conscious writer who deliberately played games
>with the authorial presence

not necessarily bad, just hard to pull off

>Try rearranging the letters in Vivian Darkbloom's name ...).
>Nabokov and Melville are two of my favorite authors,

I think that Melville would have been one of mine, too, had I been
born seventy-five years ago.  But my little mind was warped by early
years of reading less ornate authors, and I've never managed to
adapt to the more ornate verbal style.  But I'm not arguing that
Melville is a bad author, just inviting commiseration and sympathy.
As I said, my problem is not that _Moby_Dick_ is bad, but that it's
too good: the pleasure of seeing the words work interferes with my
ability to fall into the book, see the waves and hear the voices in
the movie theatre in my head.

>>that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or if
>>it is,

I misstated this a little, because I *do* read Finnegan Wake for
pleasure -- I love puns, and enjoy finding them in FW.  But I can
only do it a page at a time, and it's not really the *same* pleasure
I was talking about.

>know who have made a study of Finnegan's Wake claim to get great
>enjoyment from tackling the task, however, so I suspect that this
>is another case where a certain amount of personal taste is
>involved.  Perhaps it's like the guy who likes to beat himself over
>the head with the baseball bat because it feels so good when he
>stops. :-)

I kind of think it's more like jigsaw puzzles -- but not like
reading fiction.

>>But the idea originally proposed was that we who prefer to read SF
>>should get our minds out of the ghetto and find out what *real*
>>fiction is like.
>
>...that SF in general is not real fiction, or put down the entire
>SF genre. If you think I did, I suggest you reread my posting.

Once again, let me stress that I was not necessarily replying to
only Bill-Ingogly words, but rather taking up the side of the
SF-is-okay people in general against the Forces Of Literature.

Knowing you as a fan I took this as being (on your part) hyperbole.
I realize that you are partial to SF.  Let me recast once-and-for-
all what I felt had been the thesis proposed: that most or all of SF
was crap, that most mainstream fiction was better, and that SF
readers who thought otherwise should get their minds out of the
pulp-lined gutters of the paperback ghettos, and learn what *good
literature* was, so they wouldn't say these foolish things.

>Yes, I've made extreme statements

I firmly approve -- can't have a fun discussion unless you take a
strong stance.

>What I've reacted strongly to in this group and others in the past
>are what I've felt were absolutist statements that pigeonholed
>whole genres of fiction, types of music, or groups of people
>unfairly.

But you see, that is the same thing to which I am reacting --
statements that SF readers don't know what ``good'' is, and refuse
the ``good stuff'' in favor of endless serial episodes masquerading
as novels.  The statements to which I've been responding have been
very strong -- not just ``there's a lot of crap out there'' but
``the reason there's so much crap out there is that you turkies
can't tell the crap from good stuff.''  I know you know better, and
I admit that your posting was not quite this strong (although I
certainly felt the out-of-the-ghetto phrase suggests it -- but let
that pass; hyperbole is fun, and other postings on this subject have
certainly been that strong, or seemed to have been.)  I stick to my
original point -- there is (in my mind) AT LEAST as much trash out
there in Literature (proportionately) as there is in SF.

>>The usual response to this has been an essentially elitist one:
>>``if you were a literary sophisticate, you wouldn't find it so.''
>>...believe that there is more good writing in SF than in
>>mainstream are simply near-illiterates, as the more strenuous
>>pro-literary voices seem to have claimed.
>
>Then you've had one or more bad experiences with 'English Lit'
>people that you shouldn't generalize from. I've known several
>people, undergraduates and graduate students alike, who were rabid
>SF fans in first-rate English Lit departments (University of
>Virginia and University of Iowa at Iowa City, for example). I think
>this is an unfair generalization.

Maybe so -- it's been nearly ten years since I was an English major,
and that didn't last very long.  But it has been my experience, and
has been an experience shared by many of my acquaintances who have
been in the same position.  Hard to tell if a generalization is
unfair unless you can examine the whole class about which you are
generalizing.

But my experience is at least partly based on the responses I've had
from my near-stepmother, who is busily getting a Ph.D. at Drake,
after having been at UI/Iowa City for some time.

I don't think I quite follow the point of SF fans at the Lit
Departments -- I don't believe that there is some reason English
majors can't like SF.  I just think that the current ``direction''
of formal academic English and what is being called ``Literature''
is such that, to be respectable within these departments, an
SF-fan/Lit Major had better praise the obscurity over _Dahlgren_
over the more clear style and form of something like _Ender's Game_.

(Aside: if anyone hasn't read _Ender's Game_ yet, do so immediately.
It's bloody wonderful.)

>And defending the claim that there's more good writing in SF by
>accusing myself and others of character assassination isn't a fair
>argument in my book.

If you took the phrase about ``near-illiterates'' that way, well,
I'm sorry.  But that's the way the ``ghetto'' statement read to me,
that is even more so the way that ?? Tucker's articles have read to
me, and I stand by it.  Note that ``near-illiterate'' refers in no
way to one's character -- but does seem to me to say clearly in few
words the attitude that I felt was being taken.

>Certainly, graduate or undergraduate programs in English encourage
>their students to conform in more or less subtle ways; And as far
>as 'accepted interpretations' goes, I think you're talking about
>critical consensus regarding quality judgements in fiction. ....
>My feeling is that the 'lit-crit' consensus is correct in many
>cases, and just plain wrong in others.

And I agree.  But *my* feeling is that the consensus is often
*compelled* by exactly those forces which encourage conformity.  (I
hope my ellipsis haven't resulted in me taking you out of context
but I was trying to abstract what I think is an essential point.)
And I see these ``up out of the gutters!  We're here to save you,
and lead you to the true light of Good Literature'' sorts of
statements as an attempt to get the consideration of SF to get in
line.  My problem is that I suspect that they're standing in the
wrong line, on what I feel are strong philosophical and literary
grounds

>Guess what? It's no different in any other field of intellectual
>endeavor, including the sciences and engineering disciplines.

It's just a little harder, because we can't go out and pick up a
VTGLM (Vacuum Tube Good Literature Meter) to make our measurments
with.

But I've proposed a VTGLM of my own (admittedly influenced by
reading a number of EngLit people whom I admire, most notably John
Gardner): does it encourage the reader to enter into the Dream with
the dreamer?  By my measurements, more SF and fantasy (and mystery
fiction, and thrillers, and 19th century novellists who were writing
for a living, like Dickens) get a high rating than what has been
offered to me as ``literature.'' Admittedly, the form of ``meter''
I'm suggesting does not really allow us to agree, or even allow me
to repeat my own measurements -- but it does allow me to have a
reasoned basis for my assertion that the proportion of crap is
higher in Literature than in SF.  I'll listen to other arguments,
and I still try to read outside SF (for example, I'm reading
Montaigne now), but I've not yet been offered any other arguments.

>>A postscript: Bill Ingogly has mentioned _Lord_of_Light_ as an
>>example of SF that he disliked, especially mentioning the ``he was
>>called Mahasamatman, and Binder,... but he preferred to be called
>>just Sam''...sophistication required to read it, perhaps -- just
>>perhaps -- the sophistication that was lacking was not Zelazny's.
>
>I've already admitted that it's been ten years since I read the
>book.  I am not an unsophisticated reader, and you know it; just a
>human being with a memory that's sometimes defective like everyone
>else. The quote, as you and at least one other poster have pointed
>out, is little like my recollection of it. If I've unfairly
>criticized Zelazny, I apologize.

Honest-to-Ghod, I am someday going to get a function key for sarcasm
added to this terminal.

You are right -- I know perfectly well that you are not an
unsophisticated reader.  Instead, this was an attempt to point out
that allowing ``sophistication'' to be a measure of Good Literature
can be a two-bladed sword.

(By the way -- I never took that as a real quote at all, but as a
parody intended to point up what you felt was a bad technique.  If
you felt I was accusing you of misquoting, I'm sorry -- I was really
accusing you of crafty and well-composed exaggeration in order to
make a point.)

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jun 85 1043-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #211
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 211

Today's Topics:

                       Art - Stolen Artworks,
                       Books - Donaldson & Spectra Books,
                       Films - Rocky Horror,
                       Miscellaneous - Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 85 10:28:14 EDT
From: ARAMINI@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: stolen paintings

Recently a Science Fiction artist by the name of Tom Kidd had an
exhibition at Columbia University.  Thirteen paintings were stolen
from the exhibit.  Many were book covers and should be identifiable.
Here is a list of titles of the paintings.  In most cases they are
they are the same as the book, and the authors of the books are
listed.  If you see any of the original paintings please contact the
artist at:
                        Tom Kidd
                        19 Broadway Terrace #2D
                        NY, NY 10040
                        Phone (212)569-1421

1) Oath of the Renunciate
        (cover of a Marion Zimmer Bradley Book)

2) Mallworld
        cover illistration Somtoco Suchathal

3) Silent Invaders
        Robert Silverberg

4) Lord of the Skies
        (I think this was an AMAZING SF cover)

5) Shadows out of Hell
        Andrew Offutt

6) One Step From Earth
        Harry Harrison

7) The Years Best SF (1984?)
        Gardner Dozois

8) Trojan Orbit
        Mack Renyolds (Joshua's Tomb)

9) The Imperiator Plot
        Steven Spruill (sleepwalkers world)

10) Dialogue with Darkness
        Poul Anderson

11) Firewatch
        Connie Willis

12) The Frozen Wave
        Robert Vardeman

13) Meanwhile
        (?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 12:58 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Thomas Covenant

I also must give these books my recommendation as MUST reads.  Truly
imaginative and different from the other *regular* fantasy.
Donaldson did not follow the old standards when he used the normal
fantasy elements in these stories.  The giants were awesome, the
ur-viles were completely new to me, the power and the Land were as
un-Tolkien as anything I've read.  In all six of the books, I found
that there was only one thing that I even noticed to dislike, and
that didn't bother me, because I had nothing else to do.  I was very
depressed, and these books made me fight it, along with Covenant.

The problem I refer to is that Donaldson can just go on for days
about the littlest things.  We get pages and pages of Tom worrying
and fretting.  We get descriptions that border on novels themselves.
I mean really!  It got to the point where I would be ready to jump a
few pages ahead.  Luckily I read over 500 words a minute, and I know
how to skim very well.  I figure that and boredom were the only
things that enabled me to finish the books within my lifetime,
despite the wonderful intrigue of the story.

So, I just say beware.  If you can't handle an *incredibly* verbose
writer, these books may not be for you, but if you have a few weeks
of free time, and the patience to enjoy a very symbolic and thought
provoking story, then please, sink your eyes into these books.  I
enjoyed the sequel trilogy even more than the first.  Good stuff,
Maynard!

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn)
Subject: Spectra Books
Date: 12 Jun 85 10:59:41 GMT

I was browsing through my neighborhood book store, when I saw "Free
Sampler.  Spectra.  An Introduction to Eight Remarkable Works of
Imaginative Fiction."  It contains short excerpts (~10 pages) from:

        "The Book of Kells" by R.A. MacAvoy
        "Child of Fortune" by Norman Spinrad
        "The Christening Quest" by Elizabeth Scarborough
        "The Darkling Wind" by Somtow Sucharitkul
        "The Dream Years" by Lisa Goldstein [The Red Magician]
        "The Last Rainbow" by Parke Godwin
        "Polar Fleet" by Warren Norwood
        "West of Eden" by Harry Harrison

Apparently this is an attempt to reach beyond the usual circle of SF
readers.  Nowhere in the sampler are the dreaded words "SF",
"Science Fiction", or even [yesterday's buzz words] "Speculative
Fiction".  They are all "Imaginative Fiction", or occasionally
"Fantasy".  They go to great lengths to explain the IF can take
place anywhere in space, time, or imagination.  However, they were
not above mentioning that an author was nominated for a Nebula or
Hugo; won a World Fantasy Award, John W. Campbell Award, or American
Book Award; or is well respected "in the field".

As for the books themselves, the excerpts were long enough to give a
feel for what the books are like.  I'm looking forward with even
greater anticipation to the R.A. MacAvoy and Lisa Goldstein books.
I may even pick up a few others that I might not have otherwise.

This seems like an interesting marketing ploy.  I hope it works.
Lord knows that the best SF deserves a wider readership than it is
getting.  (What constitutes 'best' has been flamed about for the
last month.  No need to get into that argument).

/john

------------------------------

From: wuphys!mff@topaz.arpa (Swamp Thing)
Subject: Rocky Horror Show (Not the movie)
Date: 9 Jun 85 22:03:53 GMT

I saw a stage version of the Rocky Horror Show here in St. Louis
recently.  There was a "chorus" of people dressed like various
characters sitting in the audience, and they greatly increased the
comedic value of the play.  I believe they were mostly people who
frequent the local weekend showing of the movie, and while there
responses to the play were intended to look spontaneous, I suspect
that they weren't.  Nevertheless, they were quite funny.  Their
interaction with the narrator was particularly good.  The play just
wouldn't have been the same without them.
        Actually, the only dissapointment was the "star", Wendy
O'Williams as ...  oh crap, now I can't remember.  Anyways, she
played Riff-Raf's female buddy, you, know, the one who he takes over
with him towards the end.  Anyways, she was pretty much of a dud.
For those of you who don't remember, Wendy is the ex-lead singer of
the ex-punk band The Plasmatics.  She's the one who was arrested for
NOT wearing shaving cream on stage in Cleveland.  The other players
were all local theatre type and were very good.

Mark F. Flynn
Department of Physics
Washington University
St. Louis, MO  63130
ihnp4!wuphys!mff

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Criticism
Date: 7 Jun 85 22:42:56 GMT

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>note please that I am not replying only to you -- one reason that I
>wrote this as an essay in itself was that it was not only your
>criticism to which I intended to respond.  ...

I wasn't quite sure, since you were responding to more than one
person at once. Here are a few comments on your reply to my reply to
my reply

>I blush to admit that I haven't read much Nabokov, except for
>interviews with him.  When he was widely available, I was
>considered ``too young,'' and there is now so much back stuff to
>read.

It's possible some of the people in this group might enjoy his
fiction. I didn't include Nabokov or some other people I enjoy and
admire on my list because they're dead. Nabokov, by the way, enjoyed
SF and all other 'popular' fiction, including things like comic
strips and detective magazines. He wrote a play, the Waltz
Invention, which is science-fictional in its subject matter. Also,
most of his fiction has certain fantastical aspects. For example,
Ada, or Ardour is set in a fictional earth in which Canada is
apparently joined or close to Russia in some way; certain
philosophers on this alternate earth believe that when people dream
they're actually visiting a real place in another universe or
dimension called Terra (i.e., our own earth).

>Knowing you as a fan I took this as being (on your part) hyperbole.
>I realize that you are partial to SF.

For all those of you out there who still don't know it: yes, I do
like SF. Yes, my statements did involve hyperbole. Heh, heh ... I
think all of us can use a good shaking up once in a while.

>I firmly approve -- can't have a fun discussion unless you take a
>strong stance.

I think it HAS been a fun discussion (but I'm certainly not
suggesting it stop), and I feel I've learned some things from you,
Charlie, and from the other responders on this topics. Thanks to
everyone.

>But you see, that is the same thing to which I am reacting --
>statements that SF readers don't know what ``good'' is, and refuse
>the ``good stuff'' in favor of endless serial episodes masquerading
>as novels.  The statements to which I've been responding have been
>very strong -- not just ``there's a lot of crap out there'' but
>``the reason there's so much crap out there is that you turkies
>can't tell the crap from good stuff.''  I know you know better, and
>I admit that your posting was not quite this strong (although I
>certainly felt the out-of-the-ghetto phrase suggests it -- but let
>that pass; hyperbole is fun, and other postings on this subject
>have certainly been that strong, or seemed to have been.)  I stick
>to my original point -- there is (in my mind) AT LEAST as much
>trash out there in Literature (proportionately) as there is in SF.

I've said it too. Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on some of
the postings on this topic. And the 'out of the ghetto' phrase WAS
intended to be hyperbole (hyperbolic?); I don't REALLY think SF is a
ghetto, but I still believe many SF fans I've met are narrow minded
about the values of fiction outside the genre. Many mainstream
readers, critics, and writers are narrow minded about the values of
SF, however; some of John Gardner's comments on SF in his book
called (I think) On Becoming A Writer are rather unfair, I thought,
but others are right to the point.

>Maybe so -- it's been nearly ten years since I was an English
>major, and that didn't last very long.  But it has been my
>experience, and has been an experience shared by many of my
>acquaintances who have been in the same position.  Hard to tell if
>a generalization is unfair unless you can examine the whole class
>about which you are generalizing.
>
>But my experience is at least partly based on the responses I've
>had from my near-stepmother, who is busily getting a Ph.D. at
>Drake, after having been at UI/Iowa City for some time.

Yeah, it can be an unfortunate experience. When I was an English Lit
major at Iowa City, I got bloody sick and tired of the graduate
students' constant toadying to the instructors. The instructor would
come up with a particularly juicy bon mot, and the grad students
would snigger appropriately. And many 'lit-crit' types ARE
unbearably arrogant snobs. A fellow I knew at Univ. of Virginia had
finished his PhD dissertation in English and was looking for a
faculty position. He told me he would only accept a position at a
MAJOR department. After two or three months, he told me he didn't
know what to do because he couldn't find a position worthy of his
talents, and that sometimes he was tempted to do away with himself.
God's gift to academia, I guess.  This fellow also was convinced
that EVERYTHING was trash except for the two or three writers he had
studied and admired: Walt Whitman and Robert Lowell were two of
them. We criticized each others' writing, but he NEVER had anything
good to say about anything I'd written.  Funny thing is, he never
had anything good to say about his own stuff, either.

Other English grad student friends of mine, on the other hand, have
been much more fun to be around, and many of them have been admirers
of a lot of SF. My experience is that the sour apples are plentiful,
but that in some English departments at least they haven't managed
to ruin the whole barrel. I'd even consider taking a graduate course
or two in English Lit to meet people and exchange ideas.

And that was one of the nicest things about being in a place like
Iowa City: there are kindred souls around if you take the trouble to
go out and meet them. Unfortunately, I think English departments do
tend to be cliqueish, but if you find the right clique: oh, it can
be a great experience.

> I just think that the current ``direction'' of formal academic
>English and what is being called ``Literature'' is such that, to be
>respectable within these departments, an SF-fan/Lit Major had
>better praise the obscurity over _Dahlgren_ over the more clear
>style and form of something like _Ender's Game_.

Well, I think all departments have their rogue elephants. Somebody
or other tells a story about the time Nabokov was teaching at
Cornell; the teller was a junior faculty member (or something) at
the time. One day, Nabokov was talking to him and asked him if he'd
been following the action on one of the trashier soap operas on the
tube. The fellow's jaw dropped, needless to say (this story is
related in the preface to Appell's annotated edition of Lolita, by
the way).

It's interesting to note that this story is important because of
what it says about the critic who repeated it as well as what it
says about Nabokov's own eclectic tastes. Appell (sp?) certainly
wasn't recounting it to put down Nabokov as an oddity. What you say
may be true of many (or even most) people in formal academic
English, but it certainly ain't true of all of them.

>>My feeling is that the 'lit-crit' consensus is correct in many
>>cases, and just plain wrong in others.
>And I agree.  But *my* feeling is that the consensus is often
>*compelled* by exactly those forces which encourage conformity.
>
> And I see these ``up out of the gutters!  We're here to save you,
>and lead you to the true light of Good Literature'' sorts of
>statements as an attempt to get the consideration of SF to get in
>line.  My problem is that I suspect that they're standing in the
>wrong line, on what I feel are strong philosophical and literary
>grounds

Hmmm... I don't quite see what's going on here. Are you saying the
methods used to make statements about literature are invalid in
general, are invalid when applied to SF, or making some other point
entirely? I think academia tends to crank out conformists in all
fields, certainly, but I think there has been a WIDE range of
approaches to the criticism of literature tried out in the last
fifty years or so. Are they all bad? That is, are you rejecting the
notion of criticism entirely, rejecting certain schools, proposing
reforms to existing approaches, proposing a whole NEW way of looking
at SF, or something else? For example, are there any of the books of
criticism written specifically on SF that you admire (e.g.,
LeGuin's, Amis's, etc.)?

>But I've proposed a VTGLM of my own (admittedly influenced by
>reading a number of EngLit people whom I admire, most notably John
>Gardner): does it encourage the reader to enter into the Dream with
>the dreamer?  By my measurements, more SF and fantasy (and mystery
>fiction, and thrillers, and 19th century novellists who were
>writing for a living, like Dickens) get a high rating than what has
>been offered to me as ``literature.''

The problem here, of course, is that the secret handshake that works
for your mind may do nothing for mine, and vice versa. But I do have
to agree that a lot of modern fiction is sterile for precisely this
reason: too many of us have forgotten the huddle around the fire,
and what the telling of the ancient tales told us about ourselves. A
few years back I read an article somewhere that talked about the
death of the mainstream novel (a death which has since failed to
materialize, of course) at least as a vehicle for 'serious' writers.
The author pointed out that the novel was alive and kicking in the
SF genre, because Story is the very essence of SF.

I think we both admire Italo Calvino, Charlie; he's certainly one
contemporary writer outside the SF genre who knows how to tell a
hell of a story. Readers of this group should check out Cosmicomics,
T Minus Zero, and the Baron In The Trees, for example.

> Instead, this was an attempt to point out that allowing
>``sophistication'' to be a measure of Good Literature can be a
>two-bladed sword.

The point's well taken. Thanks for an excellent response to my
posting.
                         -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jun 85 1054-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #212
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 212

Today's Topics:

                      Books - King & Panshin &
                              Spider Robinson,
                      Films - Rocky Horror,
                      Miscellaneous - Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF by Stephen King
Date: 12 Jun 85 18:27:13 GMT

               CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF by Stephen King
                 (Illustrations by Berni Wrightson)
                   Signet, 1985 (copyright 1983)
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     The current trend in science fiction seems to be to take
popular novelettes, illustrate them, and then publish them--puffed
up with lots of blank space--as books unto themselves, with price
tags between $7 and $10.  Steven King's horror novelette "Cycle of
the Werewolf" was originally published as a hard-back with
illustrations by comic-book artist Berni Wrightson for some absurd
price.  Now Signet has reprinted it as a paperback, with the
Wrightson illustrations, at the comparatively cheap price of $8.95,
so you can imagine what the full price was.  For that price, you get
about fifty short pages of text, the Wrightson illustrations, and a
lot of white space.

     The story is about the year-long campaign of a werewolf.  It is
broken into twelve chapters, one for each month.  Each takes place
on the night of the full moon in that month (it happens in a rather
idealized year in which there is precisely one full moon each
calendar month).  Most of the chapters just chronicle one werewolf
attack.  With all that attacking, there is very little time for any
real plot development.  In fact, there is very little in the way of
characters continuing from chapter to chapter.  That makes the plot
violent but very minimal.

     Wrightson's illustrations are like very good comic-book art.
His vision of a werewolf is much like the title character in Frank
Frazetta's painting "The Werewolf" or like the lycanthropes in the
film THE HOWLING.  If it's borrowed, at least it is borrowed from
the best.  If there is any werewolf that would scare me to run into,
it is certainly the sort of werewolf shown in THE HOWLING.  It is
sort of a grizzly bear with a wolf's head.  That's worse than
anything Lon Chaney, Jr. ever turned into.  So the illustrations are
all right, but expect to pay a real premium for them.  There is
hardly enough story to rate here, but overall the package get -1 on
a scale of -4 to +4.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: masscomp!carlton@topaz.arpa (Carlton Hommel)
Subject: Re: Sequels - The Galactic Pantograph
Date: 12 Jun 85 03:55:49 GMT

Joel Upchurch writes:
>Speaking of sequels did Alexis Panshin ever get around to writing
>'The Galactic Pantograph'?

Alexis Panshin can be seen in the Huckster's Room at area cons.  He
gets a much bigger cut of the purchase price of his books if he
sells them himself.  (He also does a booming autograph buisness.)  I
asked him the above question at Philcon 1979, and he said that the
publisher (Ace) never bought it.  The impression I got was that he
had sent around an outline, but no one wanted to sell it.

I asked him about the title in February, at Boskone, and he held out
no hope about the book seeing light then, either.

        Carl

------------------------------

Subject: Spider Robinson
Date: 12 Jun 85 23:05:04 PDT (Wed)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        Somebody out there asked about the book 'Night of Power'
that is listed in the front of Melancholy Elephants.  This book is
an example of changing the name of a book between production and
publication, something that happens now and again.  'Night of Power'
was originally to be called 'Race War', and Spider read the first
chapter or so to a bunch of folks (me, for one) at the last
WorldCon.  It sounds really good.  The reason the book is listed as
if it were in print is because the publisher is going to have it on
the shelves Real Soon Now.  We've just gotta be patient.  Even if it
is new Robinson.

                Dave

------------------------------

From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot lear)
Subject: Re: re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW
Date: 12 Jun 85 18:55:40 GMT

> Give me a break. Are you trying to teach your grandpappy how to
> suck eggs?
>
> (1) For a good many of us who had seen RHPS *many* times over the
> course of three or so years without the audience participation
> (a.p.), the movie is a delight all on its lonesome. The a.p. is
> hardly "essential". Maybe it's preferential for you, but not for
> everyone.  The a.p. was funny and enjoyable for the first few
> times, but after a while it got very annoying. There are those of
> us who like the *movie*, and would rather see *it* than the
> audience.

First of all, the audience participation changes - not the movie.
So if there were ever something bored of, it would be seeing RHPS
70+ times without the "a.p.".

> (2) It's debatable whether or not RHPS would have become a cult
> film without the a.p. Other cult films, HAROLD AND MAUDE and KING
> OF HEARTS to name two, certainly don't require a.p. And it seems
> to me that the a.p. started *after* RHPS acheived cult status.

Please define "Cult Status" so that I can understand what you're
talking about.

> (3) RHPS did indeed start out as a stage play, but *without* a.p.
> The movie was first released in late 1975, and the a.p. didn't get
> into full swing until 1979 or so.

I KNOW that is not true as I have friends who went for the "a.p." in
'77.

> (3) As for renting a videotape, I wish I *could*. But, contrary to
> popular belief, RHPS has *not* yet been released on tape (in the
> US, at least). And it's probably because 20th Century Fox is
> afraid that it will cut into the theater rentals, thus it's quite
> likely that the a.p. is *preventing* Steven and I from enjoying
> the movie in the privacy of our homes.
> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

"Life sucks and then you die."  If you really miss RHPS get the
film. (Find a friend in England or something).  However contrary to
your beliefs *MANY* people go to the movie for the "a.p." and
probably would not go without it!
                                        eliot
uucp: [{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!topaz!lear]
arpa: [Lear@RU-BLUE.arpa]

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Criticism
Date: 6 Jun 85 22:04:51 GMT

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>The point that I think has been offered is that SF writing is
>terrifically derivative and (somehow) less ``good'' than mainstream
>writing.  Just to warn everyone ahead of time, I don't feel that
>this is really true: Sturgeon's Law applies to everything,
>mainstream or not.

I completely agree; one of my responses in this exchange made
exactly this point (though I mistakenly attributed Sturgeon's Law to
Arthur Clarke). I have never made the point described here; if you
think I have, I've either failed to communicate correctly or you've
misread me.

>Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were
>never able to become engrossed in the story?  Where you were always
>conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book?  Then I believe
>you were reading something that I call sterile.
>
>Now, note that two different people would believe different things
>sterile.  I find it hard not to be conscious of ...reading ... the
>...  book... (I promise I won't do it again) when I have read Moby
>Dick.

As you point out, this is the problem I have (or had) with Lord of
Light.  I found some of his techniques intruding on my enjoyment of
the story.  Do you find Nabokov's fiction sterile, by the way? He
was a *very* self-conscious writer who deliberately played games
with the authorial presence (in one of his novels, for example, a
character goes insane when he discovers he's a character in a book;
and in Lolita, Humbert Humbert mentions a play or book called 'My
Cue' by Vivian Darkbloom.  Try rearranging the letters in Vivian
Darkbloom's name ...). Nabokov and Melville are two of my favorite
authors, so perhaps we're dealing with a difference in personal
taste here. More than one literary critic has knocked Nabokov for
playing these games with his readers' heads, so you're not alone if
you dislike him. But does that make him a bad writer?

>I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure.  I very much
>doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or
>if it is, it is only because years of study have made the reader so
>familiar with the language involved (which means learning how to
>handle puns across several european languages which are written in
>the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language barrier
>is no longer a problem.  I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is
>sterile.

I totally agree. I also would call it self-indulgent. The few people
I know who have made a study of Finnegan's Wake claim to get great
enjoyment from tackling the task, however, so I suspect that this is
another case where a certain amount of personal taste is involved.
Perhaps it's like the guy who likes to beat himself over the head
with the baseball bat because it feels so good when he stops. :-)

>Bill has mentioned several times the various writers who are
>involved in meta-fiction: Calvino has been prominent.  I don't feel
>that meta-fiction is *inherantly* sterile: _Cosmicomics_ is an
>example of a break with conventional ficiton which I don't think is
>sterile at all.  However, writing meta-fiction, writing fiction in
>which conventions are challenged, is a risky business: it's hard
>for the reader to co-operate in understanding the dream.  Calvino
>sems to manage; for me John Barth does not.

Again, I agree; Calvino is a blast, and Barth is a bore. For me, of
course. I'm sure both of us have known people who greatly enjoyed
Giles Goat-Boy, or Chimera, or one of Barth's other books. Gunter
Grass is another writer who's an acquired taste, I think.

>But the idea originally proposed was that we who prefer to read SF
>should get our minds out of the ghetto and find out what *real*
>fiction is like.

We both know SF readers who read nothing but SF; I have one of them
in my family. From postings to this group over the past two years,
my feeling is that there are readers in this group who hold the
mistaken opinion that SF is the only place where most interesting/
valid/worthwhile things are being done today in fiction.  I
certainly did *not* say that SF in general is not real fiction, or
put down the entire SF genre. If you think I did, I suggest you
reread my posting. Yes, I've made extreme statements (the use of the
word ghetto was extreme). The intention was to get people's
attentions and spark some exchanges on this topic, and it seems to
have worked. I care a great deal about SF, but I care a great deal
about a lot of fiction written outside the genre as well.

>However, my experience with what has been propounded as
>``literary'' is that, for me at least, the ``literary'' fiction is
>nearly completely sterile.  The few ideas that are proposed are
>puerile or dull, the characters are often people who I wouldn't
>want to talk to in person, and the situations are usually
>intolerably banal.  I can't make the dream vivid: the author's
>style, choice of words, non-standard sentence structure or simple
>lack of identification with his own characters have made it
>impossible for me.

Try replacing "literary fiction" in this paragraph with "SF." Bad
fiction is bad fiction, no matter what the genre. And all of us
(myself included) have to admit that fiction fulfills different
needs for different people. We all have our own ways of approaching
a story, and I suspect we all get something different from a story.
What I've reacted strongly to in this group and others in the past
are what I've felt were absolutist statements that pigeonholed whole
genres of fiction, types of music, or groups of people unfairly.

>The usual response to this has been an essentially elitist one:
>``if you were a literary sophisticate, you wouldn't find it so.''
>Well, maybe so: but my experience with English Lit people has been
>that becoming a ``literary sophisticate'' really means ``learn the
>code words and accepted interpretations.  Learn to fit in.''
>Perhaps those of us that believe that there is more good writing in
>SF than in mainstream are simply near-illiterates, as the more
>strenuous pro-literary voices seem to have claimed.

Then you've had one or more bad experiences with 'English Lit'
people that you shouldn't generalize from. I've known several
people, undergraduates and graduate students alike, who were rabid
SF fans in first-rate English Lit departments (University of
Virginia and University of Iowa at Iowa City, for example). I think
this is an unfair generalization. And defending the claim that
there's more good writing in SF by accusing myself and others of
character assassination isn't a fair argument in my book.

Certainly, graduate or undergraduate programs in English encourage
their students to conform in more or less subtle ways; this is more
a problem with academia in general than with literary criticism or
the formal study of English (or other) literature. What makes you
think students in these programs are all too short-sided to see that
these problems exist? And 'code words' and 'accepted
interpretations' exist in all disciplines, including computer
science. Every field has jargon; in many cases, it streamlines the
communication process between practitioners of a discipline. This is
true of a lot of the jargon that's involved in 'lit-crit bulls__t,'
as another poster recently put it. And as far as 'accepted
interpretations' goes, I think you're talking about critical
consensus regarding quality judgements in fiction. A lot of people
in this newsgroup seem to want to believe that quality judgements
are meaningless, since (apparently) anything which can't be
described by an algorithm is subjective. I think this is
wrongheaded, simply because so much of human culture and human
behavior is subjective. My feeling is that the 'lit-crit' consensus
is correct in many cases, and just plain wrong in others.  Guess
what? It's no different in any other field of intellectual endeavor,
including the sciences and engineering disciplines.

>A postscript: Bill Ingogly has mentioned _Lord_of_Light_ as an
>example of SF that he disliked, especially mentioning the ``he was
>called Mahasamatman, and Binder,... but he preferred to be called
>just Sam'' section as being a part of the book that he especially
>disliked.  The particular comparison he's used was to that awful
>``you can call me Jim, or you can call me...'' comedian.  Well,
>okay, clearly this business broke the clarity of the dream for
>Bill.
>
>However, as a long-time student of the various sutras and storys of
>the life of the Buddha, I really enjoyed it.  That was a very
>nicely used parody or pastiche of a stylized phrase that happens
>over and over again in Sutras and in Vedic literature, and really
>gave me the feel that this was a story in the Eastern sort of world
>that the book is meant to evoke.  If indeed the measure of
>``literature'' is the sophistication required to read it, perhaps
>-- just perhaps -- the sophistication that was lacking was not
>Zelazny's.

I've already admitted that it's been ten years since I read the
book.  I am not an unsophisticated reader, and you know it; just a
human being with a memory that's sometimes defective like everyone
else. The quote, as you and at least one other poster have pointed
out, is little like my recollection of it. If I've unfairly
criticized Zelazny, I apologize.
                                         -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jun 85 1113-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #213
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 213

Today's Topics:

                Books - Ellison (4 msgs) & Panshin,
                Films - Star Trek,
                Television - Space: 1999 (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 12 Jun 85 18:13:17 GMT

A few people have mentioned the legal bruhaha about the film THE
TERMINATOR and the payment that Ellison received on copyright
infringment grounds for similarities to the two Outer Limits
episodes that Ellison wrote.  I haven't seen much in the way of
opinion about the situation.  I want to express an opinion.  I think
it stinks.

Science fiction is a literature that prides itself on freedom of
ideas.  For a long time science fiction in the magazines was really
a dialog of ideas.  One author would disagree with another by
writing a story along similar lines, but would vary the idea showing
how he thought things would work out differently.  Writers built on
the ideas of previous authors.  They came to assume, in fact, that
the reader was familiar with earlier works on the same subject.
Wells had to explain the concept of time travel in TIME MACHINE,
Ellison didn't in Soldier From the Future.  Stories borrowed ideas
from other stories all the time and nobody paid much attention
because that is the way the science fiction game is played.  And one
reason it could be played that way is that large sums of money were
not involved.  Then TV and cinema got into the science fiction act
and still there did not seem to be much of a problem since science
fiction was still not a big moneymaker.

Then Ellison and Bova wrote a story called "Brillo" about how a
human is better than a robot to act as a policeman.  In some ways it
reused ideas from Asimov and others, but nobody cared because it was
a different approach to some of Asimov's ideas.  A TV network
considered adapting "Brillo" into a series or a TV movie or
something but the project never got off the ground.  That same
netword did do a series on the concept that a robot policeman would
have to overcome initial prejudice, but would be a good thing.  It
is highly profitable to win a suit against a network and Ellison and
Bova sued.  They apparently demonstrated that "Brillo" inspired the
concept of FUTURE COP and laid claim to ownership of the idea of a
robot policeman.  They must have had a darn good lawyer but they won
that one.  Science fiction fans everywhere applauded that a couple
science fiction writers had won a suit against a big, bad
corporation.

After Fox made ALIEN, Van Vogt threatened to sue over similarities
to his "Discord in Scarlet."  Apparently egg-laying aliens is
another owned idea.

Now I admit when I saw TERMINATOR I did think of "Soldier from the
Future."  I thought a whole lot more about CYBORG 2087, a film in
which a cyborg is sent back into our present to avert a totalitarian
future.  I can't tell you what concept Ellison must have claimed was
stolen from him.  "Soldier" was about a soldier, not a civilian or a
robot.  Is it the idea of time travellers coming from the future
into the present to avert a bad future?  Surely that is too broad
for Ellison to claim all of it.

My impression is that Ellison is just a parasite who claims to be
disgusted at how the film industry does not meet his high science
fiction standards, yet when they try to play by the same rules that
we expect from science fiction writers, he is right in there with
his lawyer trying to make a fast buck.  Anyone else out there have
thoughts on this.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985 05:47:51-PDT
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack
From: anything you want with TECO and DDT)
Subject: Re:  ``A Boy and His Dog'' (SPOILER)

> The movie version of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the most
> faithful adaptions (sic) of a written work Hollywod (sic) has ever
> done.  The ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word
> for word.  Some even consider the movie a two hour lead in for the
> ending punch line.

No!

The last line of the MOVIE is Blood saying ``she certainly had good
judgment, if not particularly good taste.''

The last three paragraphs of the NOVELLA are:

``We had to move slow because Blood was still limping.  It took a
long time before I stopped hearing her calling in my head.  Asking
me, asking me: `do you know what love is?'

``Sure I know.

``A boy loves his dog.''

> I dont (sic) think cannibalism is a great idea, but if that was
> the only way to save that faithful canine, I can't blame the boy
> for what he did; furthermore, I dont (sic) take it literally: I
> think it was just a clever metaphor for the choice the boy had to
> make between companions.
>
> I must also quibble a bit here: "it ain't in the story" doesn't
> necessarily mean the author didnt (sic) intend it -- he/she (sic)
> might just not have thought of it.

In this particular case:  no!

I guess that the best response is to quote from my earlier message
to SF-Lovers:

> Note that ``. . . that classic line at the end: one couldn't (sic)
> think of a more apt ending!'' not only is not in Ellison's novella,
> but has been publicly disclaimed by Ellison -- he claims that it
> rather strongly violates the spirit of his story, in particular the
> actual last line of his story.  (I in fact agree with him on this
> point, though I still like the movie's line.)

I have already presented the respective endings; you can judge the
underlying semantics for yourself.

(Unfortunately, I don't remember where Ellison made his public
disclaimer, so I can't quote it; none the less, he has made it.)

Kevin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 13:34 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: A Boy and his Dog  (SPOILER!)

                WRONG!!!!!!!!!

> From Julian Gomez
> The ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word for word.
> Some even consider the movie a two hour lead in for the ending
> punch line.

While that might be true about the lead-in, the ending was NOT the
same as the book (actually a short story).  A Boy and his Dog was
originally published in New Worlds (Great Britian) in 1969 and was
then expanded for it's publication in The Beast that Shouted Love at
the World, it's first American publication.

                         **** SPOILER  ****

The actual ending went like this, word for word.

I looked up at her.  The sun was going down.  Blood trembled in my
arms.  She got a pouty look on her face.  "If you love me, you'll
come on!"  I couldn't make it alone out there without him.  I knew
it.  If I loved her.  She asked me, once in the boiler, do you know
what love is?

It was a small fire, not nearly big enough for any roverpak to spot
from the outskirts of the city.  No smoke.  And after Blood had
eaten his fill, I carried him to the air-duct a mile away, and we
spent the night inside, on a little ledge.  I held him all night.
He slept good.  In the morning, I fixed him up pretty good.  He'd
make it; he was strong.
  He ate again.  There was plenty left from the night before.  I
didn't eat.  I wasn't hungry.
  We started off across the blast wasteland that morning.  We'd find
another city, and make it.
  We had to move slow, because Blood was still limping.  It took a
long time before I stopped hearing her calling in my head.  Asking
me, asking me: do you know what love is?
  Sure I know.
  A boy loves his dog.
                             *** eos ***

I think that's a better ending than a silly punch line.  It was a
better story than it was a movie, but the movie was good too.  As
usual, I recommend this method; See the movie, then read the book.
You won't be disappointed by the movie, and you'll love the added
depth of the book.

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 13 Jun 85 02:30:53 GMT

Mark Leeper's attack on Harlan Ellison ("Ellison is a parasite")
stirs me to respond.  There is a good deal of difference between
cross-fertilization of ideas (which is a long respected tradition in
SF, as we all know, Ellison included) and theft of your work.  As I
understand the situation, Ellison had worked on a project to develop
the Robot Cop story "Brillo", but the project had fallen through.
Ellison then went on to other things.  Later on, some of the work
from that project (and maybe some of the same people) showed up in
the Robot Cop series.

It is very clear to me that this situation suggests double-dealing.
It would scarcely be fair to hire someone to work on a project, get
a lot of ideas, and then dump that person saying that the project
was off...then use the ideas anyway.  If there is some reason for
wanting someone off a project, fire him and pay severance pay, buy
him out, or whatever seems appropriate.  But saying it's over and
we're all going to live with that, then picking up the project again
without paying the original creators, is obviously foul play.

It is of course conceivable that the Robot Cop series WAS
independent of Ellison's work and the similarities in background
were just coincidental.  That's what the court was supposed to
decide.  In the case of Robot Cop, it decided that the Robot Cop
series had significantly plundered the work that Ellison did on the
aborted project, and it awarded Ellison the money.

Now Terminator is another situation.  I have heard nothing to
suggest that Ellison was involved in a development deal on related
projects, except for the Outer Limits scripts.  Again, I think the
validity of this whole mess is up to the courts.  I can't judge for
myself because I haven't seen the shows in question.  I hope that
the court is well enough informed on the matter that they won't
automatically say "They both have time travel so Terminator must be
stolen."  Presumably, the Terminator people can come up with any
number of expert witnesses who will state that time travel and
certain related concepts are "public domain" in SF.  The court will
then decide strictly on the merits of the stories whether plagiarism
has occurred or Ellison is just being a litiginous swine.  Since I
respect Ellison, I hope it will be the former, but time will tell.

Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: dartvax!betsy@topaz.arpa (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: Re: Galactic Pantograph
Date: 12 Jun 85 18:12:28 GMT

> From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
> A couple of years ago, I asked Baird Searles at the SF Bookshop,
> and he said that Panshin's problems with his publisher had been
> ironed out and we could expect the book any time now. This is
> obviously not quite true (either that or there were a LOT of
> errors in the galleys...)

I bumped into Panshin at Boskone in 1983(?), at which time he said
he'd had writers' block problems, and that he was now self-
publishing.  He mentioned that there were at least three (!)  more
Villiers novels in his head, but that they hadn't hit paper yet.  I
bought the short-story collection he was promoting there.  It
included most of the 'mini-stories' from his novels, e.g. "To a
Teacup Held For Murder."  Alas, the book also included an essay on
the sterility of science fiction and why he wasn't writing it any
more.

*the Galactic Pantograph*.

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa
Subject: Getting to Vulcan in a hijacked Klingon ship
Date: 12 Jun 85 01:39:34 GMT

brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>> From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
>>Also, wouldn't you be a bit nervous taking a Klingon ship right
>>into Federation territory and landing it (!!!) on Vulcan?
> 3. Hmmm.  A little tricky.  Possibly they did most of their
>    traveling cloaked (very energy expensive), or maybe there is a
>    special code that can be transmitted saying 'this is a captured
>    ship - let me come home!'.

Says the novelization: Uhura is already on Vulcan (thanks to the
Vulcan embassy on Earth; this fuels my belief that Sarek, *not*
Kirk, is the driving force behind The Search For Spock); why not a
"queen to queen's level 1" code?  Or, since (again from the novel)
Saavik is in charge of communications on the requisitioned :-) Bird
of Prey, perhaps Spock taught her a code that will instantly
identify Vulcans (like the Vulcan language :-).

Of course, this is even hairier if you accept the "The Final
Reflection" events, as Harve Bennett apparently did; Vulcan is
probably *quite* familiar with Klingon design.

Brandon Allbery
Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet
+1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999, Gerry Anderson and Lew Grade
Date: 12 Jun 85 03:24:49 GMT

        Prof Bergman's disapearance was never explained in any
episode but in the book,'THE MAKING OF SPACE 1999',it is said that
lines were cut out explaining what had happened. His space suit
malfunctioned.
        True enough ,the second season was pretty bad at times, but
the first season is at least watchable.
        UFO was the direct ancestor of 1999 but with better stories
and not as many scientific 'clangers'. This could have easily gone
in to another series and its a pity it didn't. Also a final deciding
episode for both shows would have been great.
        As for the characters, they were never fully developed
though I thought that SPACE 1999 had a great family feel to it.

Andy T.

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!djl@topaz.arpa (Dave Lane)
Subject: SPACE 1999 and UFO
Date: 11 Jun 85 06:55:02 GMT

Okay, silly series trivia fans, what was the name of the Technical
Director for both "Space 1999" and "UFO"?  (there is a hint hidden
in this article)

Dave Lane, User Assistant, Office of Computing Services,
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia  30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp}!gatech!gitpyr!djl
{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!djl

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Jun 85 23:20:49-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #209

    I want to see a mythical last episode of SPACE: 1999, wherein
the Moon returns to Earth (by some magic falling into its old
orbit), and they discover the Earth uninhabitable due to the
explosion that sent the Moon off in the first place...  More
seriously, I seem to remember that they had been getting signals
from some strange planet -- neat oscilliscope-flavor patterns, I
think -- and after the blast found themselves heading off in that
direction.  I don't think that they ever got there, or even
mentioned it again (though going through the spacewarp would explain
that, but that was(?) most of a season later).  A pity; I think that
the series could have done better if they had some stronger
direction.
    I find that harder to ignore than all the silly science, than
all the times that the Moon fell into orbit at the beginning of a
show and then fell back out at the end,
    The ``stronger direction'' was not intended to say anything
about the director.
    Bard.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jun 85 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #214
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 214

Today's Topics:

       Books - King & Some Reviews (2 msgs) &  Great Authors,
       Magazines - More Reviews of SF Magazines (2 msgs),
       Films - Rocky Horror

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985 23:34:42-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: King/bachman redux

Once more into the breach, dear friends...

> From: ttidca!dewey@topaz.arpa (William Dewey)
> Having just finished the book 'Thinner' by Richard Bachman, I am a
> bit puzzled by the small white wrapper which was around the book
> upon which was printed 'Stephen King writing as Richard
> Bachman'....  On the book jacket of 'Thinner' is a picture of
> Richard Bachman which looks nothing like Stephen King, at least
> not the Stephen King in the American Express adds, and the book is
> dedicated 'To my wife, Claudia Inez Bachman' just coincidentally,
> Claudia Bachman took the photo of the author which appears on the
> jacket.

The photo of "the author" was placed on the jacket to throw people
off track. The person in the photo has been revealed to be Richard
A. Manuel, a real estate broker from Minnesota who is a friend of
King's literary agent, Kirby McCauley.

While I'm thinking about it, I want to squelch a rumor about another
King pseudonym. In a recent issue of FANTASY REVIEW, there was a
review of a specialty press book that was a deluxe reprint of a
porno novel from the late 60's by "John Wilson". (I don't have the
issue on hand, so I don't recall the title, and am not sure of the
exact by-line) The review stated that this was, in reality, Stephen
King.

        **** THIS IS A HOAX!!!! IT IS NOT TRUE!!!! ****

The very next issue contained a letter from King's lawyer asking for
a retraction, which was given. The person [ir]responsible for the
"review" admitted that it was a hoax.

And speaking of other pseudonyms and photos, there is a occult novel
that came out from Doubleday some many moons ago called THE KING OF
SATAN'S EYES, by "Geoffrey Marsh". Marsh is really Charles L. Grant,
and the photo of Marsh on the jacket is actually of Grant's father.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: NIGHT SHIFT/BOOKS OF BLOOD
Date: 12 Jun 85 18:29:27 GMT

                    NIGHT SHIFT by Stephen King
                            Signet, 1979
                  BUCKETS OF BLOOD by Clive Barker
                            Sphere, 1984
                 Two book reviews by Mark R. Leeper

     On a recommendation for horror stories by a British newcomer,
Clive Barker, I read his third collection, BOOKS OF BLOOD: VOLUME
THREE.  Then to put him in a perspective, I read what is probably
the best-selling horror collection of all time, NIGHT SHIFT by
Stephen King.  That makes sense because King is to horror writers
what McDonald's is to restaurants.  His is a sort of decent, never
great, all-pervasive standard.

     So what are my conclusions?  I'd say the two writers were quite
different but roughly on a par as writers.  I read a horror story
for three things: an interesting horror idea, interesting
characters, and an engaging plot.

     King's ideas are all right but a little unimaginative and even
timeworn.  I often say when I read one of his novels that it would
have made a really good short story.  Many of his short stories
would have made good cartoons by a macabre cartoonist like Gahan
Wilson.  Stories like "The Boogeyman" and "Gray Matter," in fact,
seemed very much like story-length versions of particular Gahan
Wilson cartoons that pre-dated them.  At least two other stories
("The Mangler" and "Trucks") are just variations on Sturgeon's
classic SF-horror story "Killdozer," written in the late Forties.
"Battleground," in which a child's toy soldier set attacks humans is
just a pale shadow of the Richard Matheson story "Prey" in which a
really vicious native doll comes to life and terrorizes the woman
who purchased it.  (Actually, a lot of King seems heavily derived
from Matheson, who I think was an even better horror story writer
before he was seduced by the Hollywood side of the Force.)  Other
so-called stories are really just a scene each plus a fair amount of
set-up time.  These stories are "The Ledge," "The Man Who Loved
Flowers," and "One for the Road."  The stories that stand out for
original ideas are "I Am the Doorway" and "Quitters, Inc."

     Of the five stories in the Barker anthology, at least three
struck me as really new concepts.  When you start out a Barker
story, you are never sure where he is going to take it.  When the
idea does come along it is really out of left field and attacks with
a real element of surprise.  His best story drones for a little
while about a vaguely interesting character out in his field trying
to dig up a large object that he's found.  Then the object comes up
by itself and the story shifts gears into a really gruesome story
about, of all things...a giant.  I suppose at one time there were
blood-curdling stories about giants, but that was a long time ago.
These days they are confined to mild children's stories, at least in
horror.  This is NOT a mild children's story.  The idea of doing a
gruesome giant story is more creative than just about anything that
King has ever done.  I was certainly more surprised by it than by
any of King's stories.

     Premise was the first criterion I had for measuring stories.
The second was characters.  King goes for interesting people, Barker
for real people.  What is the difference?  Well, to exaggerate it,
would you rather watch a videotape of an hour out of the life of
your next-door neighbor or Mickey Mouse?  One would be very
realistic as a slice-of-life, but not as entertaining as the other.
The other would be someone you could feel for, but it would not be
quite as realistic as the first.

     Barker writes about male prostitutes, film projectionists,
pornographers.  And they are believable portraits.  You don't really
care for the characters, but you believe them and you learn
something about their lifestyles.  When King writes about a college
student, you end up identifying with the character, but you get no
insights into how a college student sees life differently than, say,
how a trucker does.  King leaves a lot of room in his characters for
the reader to identify with the characters, to get into and walk
through the horror story with the them.  Barker's characters are too
real and specific to have much identification value.  That may be a
point against Barker in a horror story, but his stories are better
as literature.

     But that is actually getting into the third criterion, plot.
Barker's characters have depth and motivation, where all too often
Kings just limns out an outline for the reader to paint him/herself
into.  Occasionally King uses this for an emotional effect.  He has
real-life things haunting the character and this is perhaps King's
finest hour.  His most satisfying stories are "Sometimes They Come
Back" (drawn no doubt on his experiences teaching in a time when it
really is outright dangerous to be a teacher in some schools) and
"Last Rung on the Ladder." which is a non-fantasy story with some
suspense which also has something to say.  (While I'm on the subject
of this story, I have some mathematical complaints.  The character
first says it happened some time when "Ike" was in office, as if he
doesn't remember exactly when.  Yet he knows he was ten years old at
the time.  Most people have a pretty precise idea of what summer
they were ten years old.  At another point, he jumps from a hayloft
70 feet high.  That's like being on the seventh floor of an office
building--assuming six twelve-foot stories beneath him.  If this guy
is jumping from that into a haystack, he should be a stuntman!)

     Two different writers, two different styles.  The difference is
a matter of taste.  Obviously, King is more commercial; Barker is
more original.  Either is worth the read.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 01:27:46-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: Finding your hero

Imagine, if you will, the book behind this blurb:

Flung across space and time by the sorcery of super-science, John
Gordon exchanges bodies with Zarth Arn, Prince of the Mid-Galactic
Empire 2000 centuries in the future!

Suddenly John is thrust into a last-ditch battle between the
democratic Empire World and the tyranny of the Black Cloud regime.
Only one weapon - the terrifying Disruptor - can win the struggle
for the Empire Forces. But it is so powerful that unless John uses
it correctly it could destroy not only the enemy but the cosmos.

Could his 20th Century mind cope with the technology of 200,000
years from now ?

and on the front cover

A 20th Century man battles in a cosmic war 200,000 years from now!

I suppose I could review this piece of junk:

The Star Kings, by Edmond Hamilton
Copyright 1949. (My copy printed 1970 by Paperback Library.)
A book review by Don Lindsay.

This book is delightful genre trash. The blurb just about says it
all.

I suppose I could use this book to illustrate Aldiss' wonderful
definition of space opera ".. Space must flow past the ports like
wine from a pitcher. Blood must run down the palace steps, and ships
launch out into the louring dark.."

I even suppose that I could tie this into the recent complaints
about blurb writing, and spoilers, and genre ghettos, and quality.

Instead, however, I'd like to start a new topic. Why, do you
suppose, did it become standard to somehow transport a man of our
times into the plot?  Burroughs got John Carter to Mars somewhere in
the first few pages.  Stephen Donaldson did more or less the same.
In fact, this has been recycled by everyone from Lin Carter ("The
Green Star",etc.) to Brian Daley ("The Starfollowers of
Coramonde",1979). Not to mention one of A.E.Van Vogt's stronger
works, "The Book of Ptath" (1943).

An obvious answer is that it gives an excuse for all that
explanatory material.  But that really can't be the whole story,
because Van Vogt didn't use his hero that way. Eddison, in "The Worm
Ouroboros" (1926), completely abandoned his protagonist after five
pages! So why did he introduce him?  Just what is going on here?

Over and out
Don Lindsay
Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 01:42:10-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: can't let it pass

Someone recently gave a list of great authors. I rebut:

Orson Scott Card - major suspensions of disbelief. Cruelty.
Brian Aldiss - has been known to be boring and to inflate plot
  lines.
J.G. Ballard - this man has a good book in him. Pity he wrote it so
  many times.
                                                        Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Jun 85 12:17:18-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Magazine stuff

More mag. reviews (in order of personal preference)

Non-Fiction:

1) SF Chronicle: Andy Porter does a great job of capturing the
fannish and the pro side of science fiction.  Plus, it's done in
Boston and I get my copies faster than LOCUS.

2) LOCUS: Has gone mostly professional.  Con reports, yes, but now
there are as many items about editors and agents as writers and
fans.  I love the color (when Brown gets a deep-pockets advertiser)
and it is more of a magazine of record than SFC.  SFC is more fun.

3) SF Quarterly: Richard Geis's obnoxious and entertaining view of
SF and fandom.  It has to be read to be believed, as (I am told)
Geis also puts out sf soft-porn.  Great columns, less news than (1)
or (2).  Orson Scott Card has a fantastic column in the Summer 1985
issue.

Others include Lee Pelton's Private Heat (I've only seen one copy,
which was great) and Omni, which is cursed by a desire for the 3000
word thrill and gut-reaction story, and pseudo-science articles
(good puzzles, though).

Fiction:

1) F&SF: The closest thing to literature that we have.  Ferman is a
real editor, the stories are good and unpredictable, and the Ellison
column is more fun than wrapping hamsters in duct tape.
Consistently good.

2) IASFM: More fantasy and not-quite SF than under Scithers, but
still an entertaining read.  Shawna McCarthy is a more adventurous
editor than Ferman and she often publishes bizaared science
articles. Columns are OK, but inferior to F&SF.  Fiction is usually
lighter than F&SF, and sometimes better.

3) Amazing: Just like the old IASFM -- Scithers is nothing, if not
consistent.  Probably the best place for new writers -- low pay
rates and lousy circulation make this a second-class market for a
pro. (Three new writers in one ish a month or two ago.)

4) Analog: Clearly the worst pro magazine around.  Mostly mediocre
puzzle stories, and lame technical articles (real gee whiz stuff).
Every month I play "spot the errors."  Technical problems have
included: misapplication of thermodynamics, law of conservation of
angular momentum, Jewish tradition, and probability theory. (in just
three months) Some of the stories are OK for initial thrills -- good
magazine for your favorite adolescent male with acne.

Outside SF:

(this is especially for beginning writers)

For computers, read BYTE.  None of the other micro mags get any
deeper than how to write games and utilities, and BYTE doesn't get
all that deep.  Try IEEE Software (boring mostly).

Science News is a favorite of many hard SF writers who don't have
graduate degrees in 6 fields.  Personally, I think it is very
shallow, but then it provides a good overview every week of all the
nifty discoveries in the world.

New Scientist is fantastic, but expensive.

[Flame off]
                        Have fun,
                        wz

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Magazine stuff (Fantasy Review)
Date: 13 Jun 85 04:29:56 GMT

Yet another magazine review:

_Fantasy Review_ has gone through a number of title changes (not to
mention logos), but it's mission remains the same: to review nearly
EVERYTHING published in fantasy (in which they include SF).

While it does eventually get around to reviewing most everything, it
has a tremendous backlog; twice a year they publish "All-Review
Issues" to try and catch up.  Everything is reviewed on a equal
basis, which means that a lot of space is used to tell you not to
buy books that you probably wouldn't read anyway.  On the plus side,
there are occasional good articles; the editorials, however, are
awful.  What this mag needs is good editor.

Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

From: bocar!man@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Show (Not the movie)
Date: 12 Jun 85 15:42:49 GMT

>Actually, the only dissapointment was the "star", Wendy O'Williams
>as ...  oh crap, now I can't remember.  Anyways, she played
>Riff-Raf's female buddy, you, know, the one who he takes over with
>him towards the end.  Anyways, she was pretty much of a dud.  For
>those of you who don't remember, Wendy is the ex-lead singer of the
>ex-punk band The Plasmatics.  She's the one who was arrested for
>NOT wearing shaving cream on stage in Cleveland.  The other players
>were all local theatre type and were very good.

She must have played Magenta, Riff Raff's sister.  (Remember --
Incest is best?)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jun 85 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #215
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 215

Today's Topics:

               Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Heinlein &
                       Zelazny vs Brust,
               Films - Quest for Love,
               Television - UFO & Space: 1999 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 20 Jun 85 06:38:00 GMT

>There is a good deal of difference between cross-fertilization of
>ideas (which is a long respected tradition in SF, as we all know,
>Ellison included) and theft of your work.  As I understand the
>situation, Ellison had worked on a project to develop the Robot Cop
>story "Brillo", but the project had fallen through.  Ellison then
>went on to other things.  Later on, some of the work from that
>project (and maybe some of the same people) showed up in the Robot
>Cop series.

My understanding at the time was that Ellison could not demonstrate
any work of his had shown up in the FUTURE COP series.  He made his
claim solely on the claim of plagiarized ideas.  Other times I believe
he has made what I consider an outrageous claim that science fiction
writers are stupid not to make what money they can out of Hollywood.
When he is writing for Hollywood he disparages the writers who are
not and when he isn't he claims that everything Hollywood makes in
science fiction is garbage.  I have very little respect for that
sort of attitude.

>Now Terminator is another situation.  I have heard nothing to
>suggest that Ellison was involved in a development deal on related
>projects, except for the Outer Limits scripts.

That's right.

>Again, I think the validity of this whole mess is up to the courts.

It has been settled out of court, I thought.  It was safer that way
for the producers of TERMINATOR.  I just don't agree with the
decision to settle out of court.

>I can't judge for myself because I haven't seen the shows in
>question.

There are other works of science fiction far closer, but Ellison
seems to have some sort of recognized territoriality on anything at
all like his ideas that makes a good profit.

>I hope that the court is well enough informed on the matter that
>they won't automatically say "They both have time travel so
>Terminator must be stolen."

The producers did not want to take the risk, apparently.

[Because I am talking about Ellison and the company I work for does
make a profit, I will remind people that the opinions expressed here
are my own.]
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 14 Jun 85 05:43:26 GMT

>How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence?

How do you describe color to a blind man? That isn't as facetious an
answer as you might think, because plagiarism is one of the great
grey areas of literature law.

>The idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee
>another writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines
>around it.

The best way to look at this is through example.  If I were to write
a SF series set in a bar, I wouldn't have a lot of problem except
having publishers return it as being derivative. Spider Robinson has
done a bar series (Callahan's Bar) but doing another bar story
doesn't mean I'm plagiarizing him.

Now, if I decide to make one of the Bartenders Irish, and one of the
Bartenders an ex-minister, and maybe one night a week we have a
joke-a-thon and aliens keep wandering in after saving the world I'm
sure I'd hear from Spider's lawyers. Bar stories aren't illegal. Bar
stories that look like they have been borrowed from already
published bar stories are.

>Harlan's stories may have been innovative in their day, but that
>doesn't mean that they are innovative now.  Thus it seems
>presumptuous for him to conclude that he was ripped off.

It is also presumptuous for you to assume it otherwise. Whether or
not his story is still innovative is beside the point. Harlan owns
the copyright to Brillo, and the copyrights to the Twilight Zone
scripts, and that gives him the right to market them as he sees fit.
If someone infringes upon the marketability of his work by borrowing
from them without paying him, then Harlan is out money and is within
his right to try to get it back.

If you decided to rewrite Unix, you could do so without any problem.
If you decided to rewrite Unix, however, with any of the materials
the AT&T considers proprietary, then AT&T would have your office 18
deep in lawyers.  The laws are different (copyright vs trade
secret/contractual) but the concept is the same. Harlan owns Brillo,
AT&T owns Unix. Neither is unique, but if you use the protected
resources to create another resource without paying for them they
you are equally in the wrong whether that resource is software, a SF
story, or the patented formula for Valium.

From the misfiring synapses of:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: tekecs!waltt@topaz.arpa (Walt Tucker)
Subject: Time Paradoxes (Heinlein)
Date: 12 Jun 85 22:22:36 GMT

I just finished a short (20 page) RAH story called "All You
Zombies...."  This story deals with a time paradox, presented in
Heinlein style.  I won't comment on the physical probability of the
story happening, but the paradox is interesting.  The paradox is
very similar to that presented in another one of his short stories
called "By His Bootstraps."  Anyway, I thought the paradox presented
in this story was unusual enough to summarize to this newsgroup.
So...

   A time traveller, an older gentleman in his fifties, has set
himself up as a barkeep in 1970 so as to meet a certain person.  A
25-year old man comes into the bar.  The time traveller engages in
conversation with the man, who then tells his strange story.

   It seems the man was born a girl, and brought up in orphanage,
never having any clues as to parentage.  When the girl (man telling
the story) is about 18, she meets a man.  They have a short fling
and she winds up pregnant and he winds up gone.  Nine months later
she goes in to have the baby.  She wakes up in the hospital.  The
doctor tells her a tale of how (s)he had two set of sex organs (each
not fully developed).  The baby (a female) is fine, but having a
baby did irreparable harm to the female set of sex organs.  All the
doctors can do is perform subsequent operations and let her develop
as a man.  Well, at least she figures she can raise the baby as the
father.  No orphanage for the little baby girl.  Three days later,
the baby is snatched out of the hospital and is never seen again.
Now it is seven years later.  The man tells the time traveller that
he would give about anything to get a hold of the man who ruined his
life (got him (her?) pregnant).

   The time traveller, of course, offers the man this opportunity.
They go back to 1963.  The time traveller drops the man off to find
the man that got him (her?) pregnant these seven years past.  The
time traveller says he will pick him up in a little while.  The time
traveller jumps ahead 11 months to 1964, locates the baby in the
hospital and takes it.  The time traveller takes the baby back to
1945 and drops it off at an orphanage, making sure that the baby
gets taken in before leaving.  The time traveller then goes back to
1963 to pick up the man, who is badly shaken.  It seems the man met
himself as a woman and seduced his younger self.  The time traveller
then offers the man a job as a fellow time traveller, who accepts
the job.

    It is now 30 years later, and the 25-year old man is now the
time traveller in the bar in 1970, waiting for his younger self to
appear.

    Strange.  But, it is a rather interesting paradox (the baby
grows up to be the man who seduces himself as a woman who has a baby
that is really himself, etc.)
                          -- Walt Tucker
                             Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 03:02:11 pdt
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Zelazny, Brust

First off, LoL is not Zelazny at his best.  Just because a book has an
opinion on everything does not make it good.  For Zelazny at his best
try "Doorway in the Sand", "Isle of the Dead" or "To Die in Italbar"
(more of the recurring pantheon in all RZs books...).  I can only
explain this with the hypothesis that RZ was a devout Hindu in a prior
life.

Having just finished "Trumps" (which I liked a lot), I conclude that 
RZ cannot deal with computers and should exclude them from future 
plots.  Coils sucked (S's fault?).  Changeling was weak.  On the other
hand "My Name is Legion" (the short story, in the collection of the
same name) is the best short I've ever read, but it deals with robot
hardware rather than computer software, and I think the hand waving
about software is where RZ falls down.

I also have stylistic problems with RZ.  When I read a book like 
Tanith Lee's "To Kill The Dead", I see a power of characterization RZ
cannot touch.  Maybe RZs so busy making statements on things (remember
Tokyo Bay?) he has no time for Dick-ian trips.  When is the last time
you've been surprised by RZ, the way Wolfe, Rucker or Brust (more
later) surprises?  Has RZ ever had a truly morbid character?
(Shadowjack sought vengeance which is a quite different thing) Can he
write about love?  Of his last dozen books I'd say half have been
lemons.

Brust, ahhm yes.  Your style seems derivative of RZ's, and shares the
same weaknesses.  On the other hand the names you choose for places
and characters are indeed inspired.  I enjoyed Jhereg and Yendi.  You
are willing and able to undercut my response to your prose - and seem
quite sensitive to my mood.  One passage had me chuckling for half an
hour.  I started in on TRiH, but it was less gripping, and I've not
yet found time to finish it or to review Jhereg/Yendi.  I hope you can
turn your talent to deeper issues and meaning without losing humor and
narrative.

You said audience participation was what ruined Rocky Horror.  Well 
isn't audience participation the big draw at Dead Shows?  (btw I trade
concert tapes.. ) While I agree with you that RHPS is in ruins, RHPS
had nothing going for it even before audience participation.  RHPS was
ruined in conception.

-s

------------------------------

Date: Wed 12 Jun 85 10:42:04-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Random Quest

Well, Evelyn Leeper's review of Quest for Love made it sound a real
turkey, but somehow it didn't sound like the story, so off I went to
the shelves.

First, when Colin Trafford gets knocked into the alternative world,
he works out roughly what has happened very quickly - not least
because he (the alternative he) is knocked down by a London General
omnibus, which disappeared from our history in 1933.  Also, he is a
novelist, not a playwright.

A splitting-point of 1938 is quite absurd, for the reasons cited;
but that isn't what the story said either

        I did do my best, out of my own curiosity, to discover when
        the schism had taken place...

        But I couldn't come near fixing the moment.  It was, I
        think, somewhere in late 1926, or early 1927.  Further than
        that one seemed unable to go without the impossible data of
        quantities of records from both planes for comparison.
        Something happening, or not happening, about then had
        brought about results which prevented, among other things,
        the rise of Hitler, and thus the Second World War...

This, I submit, is plausible.  We have the League of Nations, the
Locarno treaties, the Weimar Republic, and the Washington Naval
Conference.  We don't have the German inflation, or the Great Crash
of 1929 (the alternative Colin Trafford has gold coins in his
pocket) and so, presumably, we don't have the infamous Smoot-Hawley
act, perhaps the single largest factor in causing the Second World
War, and much other nastiness besides.

Of course, there is no mention of Kennedy, not least because the
story is Copyright 1956.  However, much of John F K's political rise
was due to his family, not himself, so he might still have made it.
His war career was pretty undistinguished, (to put it politely)
until the hagiographers got to work.  Not that Wyndham would have
voluntarily mentioned him, I feel - to an Englishman of that
generation the name Kennedy would mean Joseph, not John, and he was
cordially hated.

Why, oh why, must the morons who adapt works like this for the
visual media make utterly pointless, pig-ignorant, destructive
changes?

Finally, the main plot of the story is NOT Colin's adventure in the
other world, but his search in this one for Ottilie/Belinda, which
occupies about three-quarters of the space.  I hope the adaptors at
least preserved that balance.

On a related topic, there have been several TV plays starting with
the premiss that Britain allied with Germany in WW II, usually as
the result of a military defeat and a political compromise.  One of
the best was called "The Other Man", about 1970 I think.  A problem
with these plays is that reasonable extrapolation seems to show that
Britain would be in far better shape if she HAD allied with Hitler.
The assumption being, one presumes, that even a gang of Nazi
quislings would have been far preferable to the thugs,
war-profiteers, perverts and assorted vermin who actually took over
the country in 1945!  (And that the USA is not, perhaps, the world's
best or most reliable ally - as several other small countries have
discovered in the past 40 years).

But, since we seem never to learn from real history, is there any
reason to suppose we would learn from alternative history?  Read it
for fun, if at all, say I.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 11:05:57-PDT
From: Laurence R Brothers  <LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: UFO series

I rather liked it, at least certain episodes. The majority of the
shows were basically rehashes of the footing from the credits --
pilots getting into their bizarre nose-bombers or whatever and
blowing those silly-looking UFO's all to hell.

However, certain episodes got away from the standard formula and
were truly unusual, surreal, etc. My favorites that I remember (I
haven't seen the show for some years now) are the time-warping
episode and the crypto-werewolf episode. I agree that Straker's
characterization is far more real than most sf characters, at least
in the few episodes where they really got into it.

-Laurence
I also like the music from the credits, for that matter....

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!david@topaz.arpa (David Coffield)
Subject: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 13 Jun 85 09:48:26 GMT

*PLEASE* can those who are guilty stop slagging Space 1999, UFO et
al.  There was nothing wrong with them when you were young.
(weren't you guys *ever* kids?)  Who gives a toss about the force
required to blast the moon out of the Earths orbit? Most sci-fi is
far fetched - it's meant to be.  Constructive criticism and personal
opinions yes, but cut out the slagging.

"Spectrum Is Green"

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can('t)  defend it
Date: 13 Jun 85 03:40:29 GMT

        The line 'puppets without strings' was a very nasty jibe
invented by a critic as it sounds clever. It has always been easier
to criticize something than to praise it, thus you tend to hear more
from people who don't like it than from those who do (e.g. me). The
best form of criticism is constructive (though its a bit late now
for UFO & 1999).  the problems with the characters were not that
they were 'acting' like puppets, more that their lines were bad
(blame the script writer).
        They may appear to be cold and inhuman but this is more of
an accurate representation of real life than it seems. In real life
there is normally not a funny side to everything.

Andy T.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jun 85 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #216
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 14 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 216

Today's Topics:

           Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (8 msgs) &
              Westercon & Getting Autographs (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE
Date: 10 Jun 85 13:53:28 GMT

> 3) I read for fun. I read trash. I just don't have any illusions
>    about it, even though I enjoy it. "Enjoyment" is not the be-all
>    and end-all of life.

Neither is someone's purely subjective literary merit evaluation.

> 4) I realize that what I say is my opinion, and I am surprised at
>    the number of people who have seen fit to inform me of this
>    obvious fact. Lighten up.  At least I have attempted to support
>    my opinion with examples and logic.

He who issues flame-like messages shall get such back.  High-handed,
superior tone messages beg for assault and given the nature of the
net will get it.

> 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van
>    Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is
>    bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them
>    is to lump greatness with mediocrity.  Otherwise, there is no
>    basis for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is
>    incredibly egocentric.

Oh GOD what planet do you live on.  ART, any form, any kind, is
PURELY subjective.  What art is considered "better" is strictly
cultural brainwashing just as any music (too many notes).  Play
modern critically acclaimed modern music to a musical theoretician
of century ago and he will tell you it is junk.  Show a critically
acclaimed modern painting to a similar artist and he will say it is
demented scratchings.  Literature similarly.  You are simply waving
your hands at a subjective evaluation and trying to make your
particular likes and dislikes something that rises above everyone
else, a typical self-delusion.  (I am not, by the way, a Norman
Rockwell fan so stop trying to pick the most ridiculous artistic
comparison you could think of to shove in my face)

> 6) "Well-written" and "boring" are mutually exclusive in my book.

That is because your purely subjective evaluation of "well-written"
applies only to those books which aren't boring to yourself but may
very well be quite ho-hum to me (rather discriminatory don't you
think).

I will not disagree that in my opinion (note this phrase, you should
try using it more often) the amount of crap in the SF&F field has
grown but then so has the entire field.  If you are willing to look
for it there are still gems among the rough and I would even venture
to say more than were available in previous times.  I think,
however, we would no doubt disagree on what are gems and what is
rough (and this is probably true of virtually any two people).

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply
Date: 10 Jun 85 14:10:38 GMT

> henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not.
>>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else.
>>Just because a majority
>Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but
>you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For
>edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by
>R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michelangelo is not "just another"
>sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any
>trashcan, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may
>believe otherwise.
>>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have
>>mine.
>Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ???
>(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary
>masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!)

Ahhh, but what if the culture values the "rough" nature of a lesser
sculptor.  Torn tee-shirts, poor stitching, camp looks, then that
culture will evaluate "just another" sculptor higher than
Michelangelo.  Michelangelo had great life-like vision but I am
certain that you could find many people who don't consider life-like
vision great art.  I really don't feel that artisitic evaluation and
quality are the same thing.  A work of art may have the feel of
quality and yet not be artisically great.  Similarly, a motorcycle
engine may have the static feel of quality yet not work very well.
Quality to me is more an expression of the feeling of precision and
care that an item evokes and has little to do with art.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OFF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV
Date: 11 Jun 85 01:12:27 GMT

> in "Helliconia Summer" he described the last breaths of dying men
> as "apostrophes on the possessive case of life". *That* is great
> writing.

No, it's not.  Strange juxtapositions of words that appear to say
something profound are not examples of good writing, just the
mummery of a wordsmith who mispreceives the meaning of art.

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 09:27 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Replies to replies...

The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply to a reply to a
reply - you get the idea

>henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not.
>>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. Just
>>because a majority
>
>Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but
>you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For
>edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by
>R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michaelangelo is not "just another"
>sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any trash
>can, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may
>believe otherwise.

Sure, QUALITY exists, but it is NOT an absolute. My quality may not
be your quality. Michaelangelo is quality. So is Picaso (sp?
Spelling is not my forte). However, had Picaso turned up during
Michaelangelo's time I seriously doubt we would have ever heard of
him. What is quality changes with time. To use a point I make in a
message as yet unposted, Shakespeare was TRASH when it was written,
now it is QUALITY. Quality changes with time and from person to
person. I know there are people who like country music, but for the
life of me I have no idea WHY. That is not quality music to me but
it is to them. To paraphrase, quality is in the eye of the beholder.
By the way, you may be surprised to hear it, but I couldn't agree
with you more concerning # of the Beast vs. The Sheep Look Up - but
I realize that is only MY opinion and not that of everyone -
probably not even that of the majority.

>>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have
>>mine.
>
>Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ???
>(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary
>masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!)

Oh boy! TRUTH! With all the letters in capitals! I live in South
Carolina.  If there exists a buckle to the Bible Belt, S.C. is it.
Within 30 miles of me is Bob Jones University. They have a hotline
to the TRUTH and have been telling us mere mortals how wrong our
truths (OUR truths don't deserve capital letters) are for decades. I
think - and expect you would agree with me - that they are full of
shit. What does this have to do with artistic impressions? It's just
and example showing one person's TRUTH is another person's shit.
TRUTH is no more and absolute than quality.

>>for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry
>>would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it would
>>never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent book,
>>but the field doesn't end with that one title).
>
>Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is
>published. DOes one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ???

One doesn't HAVE to read ANYTHING! If you think what I read is
nonsense - even though you have no idea what I read (although your
tone implies you do - I think you might be surprised to find out
what I do and don't consider good fiction) then you don't have to
read it. Read what you enjoy. If I think it's nonsense, I won't
bother to read it.

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson@csnet.csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 85 08:45 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OFF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV
Cc: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA, Feuerman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

I had crafted a much longer, madder, accusatory, hyperbolic message
in response to the latest message from Davis Tucker and decided not
to send it in order to avoid the flames that I surely would have
gotten. (But boy, was it fun to write!)

In short, what I said was that in my opinion Dhalgren is the biggest
piece of trash I have ever read. My advice is not to read it!

Yours in presenting a dissenting opinion,

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 85  14:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Mainstream vs. SF and sophistication
From: ("Joe Herman @ Merryland <HERMAN@UMDB>") <HERMAN@UMDB.ARPA>

$ begin low power flame
   Gentleman, I've been amused by the arguments over what type of
literature is "trash" and what is not.  If you're going to start an
argument like this, you should define your terms.  For instance,
what does *anyone* look for in a book?  What makes a book a
non-trash book?  Both answers are entirely subjective, and to argue
them is like arguing (sp?)  religion, or politics.
   When I was in Jr. High School, I couldn't get enought of EE "Doc"
Smith and early Heinlein (ala Have Spacesuit, Will Travel).  The
other month, I went back and read some of those books again.  It was
almost embarrassing to read (please, no "..but Heinlein is god"
flames).  My point is, that tastes change.  I may think that "good"
literature is really dull.  You may argue that I am not ready for
the literature, but I could equally argue that the only reason you
think the literature is good is because it's something different.  I
don't mean to argue that all literature has merits (though I
possibly could...), but to classify a whole genre as being "trash"
or being superior is really quite silly.
   So let's stop arguing (sp?) about this...all it's going to do is
offend people, and I seriously doubt the discussion will change
peoples behavior.  If you'd like to be useful, *suggest* main-stream
books or writing styles you enjoy.

end low power flame $
                         Dzoey

------------------------------

From: warwick!alex@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter)
Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply
Date: 13 Jun 85 04:08:34 GMT

mwm@ucbvax.UUCP (Mike Meyer) writes:
>oz@yetti.UUCP writes:
>>Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but
>>you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For
>>edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by
>>R. M. Pirsig)
>
>Yup, you're right - I'll know quailty when it hits me in the face.
>For instance, any book that can (intentionally) keep me laughing as
>long as NOTB did is definetly QUALITY. Or maybe quality in an
>artistic field is subjective, not objective? Since you seem to
>think that it's objective, why don't you let the rest of the world
>in on your measurement technics.

Pirsig, in Zen&tAoMM, actually says that Quality is OUTSIDE of
subjective and objective, it is a completely different mode. READ
THIS BOOK. It really is very good.
                                        --Alex
                        ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!asz

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE
Date: 14 Jun 85 06:16:56 GMT

>> 3) I read for fun. I read trash. I just don't have any illusions
>>    about it, even though I enjoy it. "Enjoyment" is not the
>>    be-all and end-all of life.
>
>Neither is someone's purely subjective literary merit evaluation.

This, of course, is a subjective response.

>> 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van
>>    Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is
>>    bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them
>>    is to lump greatness with mediocrity.  Otherwise, there is no
>>    basis for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which
>>    is incredibly egocentric.
>Oh GOD what planet do you live on.  ART, any form, any kind, is
>PURELY subjective.

Wrong. Art has both a subjective and an objective side. The
objective side is technique, and how well the artist uses the
techniques and tools of the trade. For a writer, there are things
like spelling, grammar, and the structure of their works. For a
painter, there is the use of paints and brushes, perspective, and
the technical details of putting together a painting. The subjective
side is how well the artists use these techniques, and how well the
author can break the techniques in positive ways. Both are
important; the best ideas in the world are unreadable if the way
they are presented is illegible (just look at a random sampling of
usenet, for example... *grin*)

From the misfiring synapses of:
Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: wdl1!jrb@topaz.arpa
Subject: WESTERCON rates
Date: 11 Jun 85 20:15:53 GMT

Does anyone know what the current and at-the-door rates are for
Westercon Membership?

John R Blaker
UUCP:   ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb
ARPA:   jrb@FORD-WDL1
and     blaker@FORD-WDL2

------------------------------

From: luke!steven@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: FOOTFALL
Date: 9 Jun 85 05:48:23 GMT

lindy@vienna.UUCP (John Lindquist) writes:
>My question is:
>   Is it tacky to bring a different book to be autographed rather
>   than the one the session is for?

I've wondered the same thing myself.  Books, Inc. in San Jose has
periodic autograph sessions.  I've gone to a few and seen people
come in with BOXES of books by the author!  It seems to depend very
much on the author.  If you're a collector, then adding an autograph
to a collectable increases its value.  Otherwise, you'd think one is
enough.

It probably depends on how many people there are behind you and how
long you can stand their stares.

Steven List @ Benetics Corporation (415) 940-6300
{cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!steven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 16:42 PDT
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #202

> Is it tacky to bring a different book to be autographed rather
> than thr one the session is for?

I would hazard a guess that no one would mind you bringing other
books to be autographed. As it so happens I had an opportunity to
get Niven's autograph a while back. Though I did purchase the book
the session was for, I also brought several of his previous works.
The only requirement was that I get a reciept at the door to prove
that I had brought the books with me. I'd recommend checking with
the bookstore to find out what their policy is.  I can tell you for
sure that Mr. Niven didn't seem to mind.

Wendel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jun 85 1022-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #217
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 15 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 217

Today's Topics:

       Miscellaneous - Literary Sterility (2 msgs) & Sequels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 85 22:09:52 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: literary sterility

> Charlie Martin writes: When I say ``sterile,'' just what am I
> talking about?
> >Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were
>never able to become engrossed in the story?  Where you were always
>conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book?  Then I believe
>you were reading something that I call sterile.

Odd definition of literary sterility.  The term "sterility" is
usually meant to convey something incapable of reproducing, so I
would have thought literary sterility to mean that the work in
question is a dead end, that it will have no influence on future
works, perhaps that it does not stimulate speculation or thought.
Your use of "sterility" strikes me as, intentional or not, an
attempt to misuse a word so that you can take advantage of its
perjorative connotations.  This is similar to a liberal who chooses
to call conservatives facists for rhetorical value.

While they may fit your definition of "works which didn't engross
*me*", your examples are certainly not sterile by any traditional
definition of the word.  "Moby Dick" and "Finnegan's Wake" are
tremendously influential works which have lasted.  The examples set
by these novels are widely emulated (though not, in the case of
"Finnegan's Wake", to the extent that Joyce went).  I suspect that
Calvino will have the same kind of lasting influence.

As for the alternate definition, both Melville and Joyce make me
think a great deal more than the vast majority of science fiction
authors, so I believe that reading them has been more valuable to me
than reading, say, Heinlein or Asimov or Zelazney.  If these
mainstream authors cause me to think more, if they stimulate ideas
and broaden my viewpoint, I certainly wouldn't call them sterile,
even if I didn't forget for a moment that I had a book in my hand.
On the other hand, with a very few exceptions, any sf/fantasy novel
I read stimulates very little thought for me.  They are influential
in the sense that almost every successful sf novel is likely to be
copied, by its author if no one else, but I have my doubts about
lasting influences.  The sf of the 30s and 40s is almost entirely
forgotten, with the exceptions of a few fine works and a lot of
stuff written by authors who later became extremely successful.  I
strongly suspect that the vast majority of today's sf is destined
for oblivion in a couple decades, a greater proportion of it than
today's mainstream fiction.

>I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure.  I very much
>doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or
>if it is, it is only because years of study have made the reader so
>familiar with the language involved (which means learning how to
>handle puns across several european languages which are written in
>the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language barrier
>is no longer a problem.  I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is
>sterile.

I read "Finnegan's Wake" for pleasure.  I have little linguistic
background, beyond that inevitably gained by someone who has read a
lot .  I've never finished "Finnegan's Wake", and I am well aware
that much of it flies right over my head.  I have great difficulty
even following what's going on.  For me, reading "Finnegan's Wake"
requires great effort.  Yet, I enjoy it.  Some people seem to only
enjoy reading when they are able to put their mind on autopilot.  I
don't mind having to exert some effort, provided that the author
gives me returns for my work.  Authors like Joyce and Faulkner do.

Many people are forgetting what sparked this discussion.  It was a
grandious claim that the best working authors are, for the most
part, science fiction writers.  I believe that, even under the
constraint that you have to be able to immerse yourself in the book,
this view is incorrect.  You, of course, are welcome to feel
otherwise, but unless you have done some fairly wide reading outside
sf and in current literature, don't be too surprised if more widely
read people snicker behind your back and attempt to sell you the
Brooklyn Bridge.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: literary sterility
Date: 11 Jun 85 21:12:34 GMT

reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA writes:
>From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
>> Charlie Martin writes: When I say ``sterile,'' just what am I
>>talking about?
>> Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were
>>never able to become engrossed in the story?  Where you were
>>always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book?  Then I
>>believe you were reading something that I call sterile.
>
>Odd definition of literary sterility.  The term "sterility" is
>usually meant to convey something incapable of reproducing, so I
>would have thought literary sterility to mean that the work in
>question is a dead end, that it will have no influence on future
>works, perhaps that it does not stimulate speculation or thought.
>Your use of "sterility" strikes me as, intentional or not, an
>attempt to misuse a word so that you can take advantage of its
>perjorative connotations.

In fact, the implication of infertility is precisely the implication
I wanted, which is why I chose ``sterile.''  And the infertility
that I intend to suggest is the inability to stimulate the creation
of a vivid dream as an agreement between reader and writer.  To
strain my metaphor, I would go so far as to say that I think a
mature reader is a growth medium, capable of bringing forth this
vivid and shared dream when fertilized by a (non-sterile) work of
fiction.  I will stick to the word I chose, and only want to assure
you that the perjorative meaning you believe I implied is
more-or-less the one I intended.

>While they may fit your definition of "works which didn't engross
>*me*", your examples are certainly not sterile by any traditional
>definition of the word.  "Moby Dick" and "Finnegan's Wake" are
>tremendously influential works which have lasted.

And had I grown up with 19-th Century english as my native language,
I'm sure that I would be engrossed by Moby Dick; but I didn't, and
I'm not, even after a number of trys over several years.  I wish I
were -- I really admire the way that Melville put together
sentences.

>The examples set by these novels are widely emulated (though not,
>in the case of "Finnegan's Wake", to the extent that Joyce went).
>I suspect that Calvino will have the same kind of lasting
>influence.
>
>As for the alternate definition, both Melville and Joyce make me
>think a great deal more than the vast majority of science fiction
>authors, so I believe that reading them has been more valuable to
>me than reading, say, Heinlein or Asimov or Zelazney.  If these
>mainstream authors cause me to think more, if they stimulate ideas
>and broaden my viewpoint, I certainly wouldn't call them sterile,
>even if I didn't forget for a moment that I had a book in my hand.

I have been trying to establish my use of the word ``sterile'' to
make a technical distinction which I think is both invaluable and
neglected in most critical discussions.  I think that the one and
only, sole reason for fiction's existence is to bring about that
immersion in the shared dream.  In fact I have begun to call it the
Vivid Dream specifically to make that point.  That fiction which
impedes the creation of the Vivid Dream I feel is sterile *as
fiction*.

I don't exclude the possibility of other value.

>On the other hand, with a very few exceptions, any sf/fantasy novel
>I read stimulates very little thought for me.

Then they are unsuccessful essays.

>They are influential in the sense that almost every successful sf
>novel is likely to be copied, by its author if no one else, but I
>have my doubts about lasting influences.  The sf of the 30s and 40s
>is almost entirely forgotten, with the exceptions of a few fine
>works and a lot of stuff written by authors who later became
>extremely successful.  I strongly suspect that the vast majority of
>today's sf is destined for oblivion in a couple decades, a greater
>proportion of it than today's mainstream fiction.

The distinction between ``being copied'' and ``being influential''
is so subtle that I can't follow what you are saying in the first
instance at all.  (Actually, I am subtly trying to say that I think
the distinction you are making is specious.)  Give me a little
further explanation, OK?

As for the second point, I agree that most SF of today will
disappear soon, except for collections.  Most of mainstream ficiton
will disappear soon, except for collections.  However, the
proportion of SF that is in print from 1950 is *much* greater than
the proportion of mainstream fiction in print from 1950 (easily
checked at any large library), so your second point seems to come
down on my side.

But in any case, as the first para of my article said, I think that
Sturgeon's Law applies to *everything* without exception.  I *do*
think that an SF novel is more likely to be good fiction (remember,
I'm talking about Vivid Dream now, not how much of an essay is
hidden within the narrative) than a mainstream novel published the
same year; but if you claimed mainstream for 91% crap and SF for 89%
crap, I could hardly argue the point.

>>I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure.  I very much
>>doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure --
>>or
>> ...  the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language
>>barrier is no longer a problem.  I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_
>>is sterile.
>
>I read "Finnegan's Wake" for pleasure.  I have little linguistic
>background, beyond that inevitably gained by someone who has read a
>lot .  I've never finished "Finnegan's Wake", and I am well aware
>that much of it flies right over my head.  I have great difficulty
>even following what's going on.  For me, reading "Finnegan's Wake"
>requires great effort.  Yet, I enjoy it.  Some people seem to only
>enjoy reading when they are able to put their mind on autopilot.  I
>don't mind having to exert some effort, provided that the author
>gives me returns for my work.  Authors like Joyce and Faulkner do.

I've already covered this point a couple of times, so I won't
belabor it: I overstated my point and I have indeed read parts of FW
for pleasure.  The pleasure is *not* that of entering into a shared
dream, but rather of working out a puzzle.  That pleasure is
legitimate pleasure; I don't think its what *fiction* is about.

>Many people are forgetting what sparked this discussion.  It was a
>grandious claim that the best working authors are, for the most
>part, science fiction writers.

``Speak for yourself, Miles.''  *I* was replying rather to the idea
that science fiction was all derivative and devoid of artistic
merit.  I have extended that by adding an attempt at defining what
makes ``good fiction'' good, in order to make my argument clear and
explicit.  I still think that the odds are (slightly) better that an
SF book by Jon Q. R. Random will be ``good fiction'' in the sense
that I mean than the book in mainstream that is published the same
day.

>I believe that, even under the constraint that you have to be able
>to immerse yourself in the book, this view is incorrect.  You, of
>course, are welcome to feel otherwise, but unless you have done
>some fairly wide reading outside sf and in current literature,
>don't be too surprised if more widely read people snicker behind
>your back and attempt to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

I suppose that I should point out the various authors I have read,
and also point out the authors mentioned in my posting that you've
cut out of your quotes, but I won't.

However, I am egotistical enough to state that I am pretty widely
read, in German and English.  In Science Fiction, Fantasy,
mainstream fiction, poetry, history and philosophy.  I even read
Chinese to some extent, and have historical publications.

But I should thank you for including this last paragraph: this is a
near-perfect example of the sort of pseudo-argument that I was
speaking of when I mentioned the ``elitist response.''  You are
pretty explicitly saying that taking this stand suggests that I am
not a literary sophisticate (sell me the Brooklyn Bridge, indeed.)
This reasoning is so patently circular that I will dignify it with
no further response.

A summing up: I am not simply saying ``I couldn't understand these
books, therefore they must be bad.''  I am specifically stating that
the sine qua non of ``good fiction'' is the ability to produce the
vivid and shared dream.  I specifically reject what I feel to have
been your contention, that the worth of a work of fiction is the
worth of the ideas in that fiction (fiction-as-hidden-essay.)  And I
still believe that SF (and other genre fiction, e.g. mystery
stories) is more likely to take care to produce that vivid dream
than mainstream.

However, Bill Ingogly and Davis Tucker and I had been approaching
something like a consensus, I think.  Fun to have another opposition
member.
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Sequels
Date: 11 Jun 85 15:53:23 GMT

Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that Lord
of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to listen to
anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a nice story).

There's an interesting article in the latest issue of Discover about
why sequels are often let-downs (amongst other things).  It's due to
a statistical principle called "Regression toward the mean" which
says that average results happen more often than extreme results
(either good or bad), so any extreme result is usually followed by
an average result.  This means that if an author writes a very good
book, it is more likely to be followed by a less good book, simply
because the average happens more often.  Of course, one author's
average may be a good deal better than another author's average, but
almost no one stays at the peak consistently (sad to say, for
example, that Sword of the Lictor is noticeably weaker in my opinion
than the other books of the New Sun, even though the four books
taken together blow most of the rest of the field out of the water).

By the way, the same principle (regression of the mean) has a very
interesting effect in education.  We know (from many many
experiments) that praise and positive reinforcement are better
teaching methods in the long run than punishment and negative
reinforcement.  However, the opposite is frequently perceived to be
true by teachers.  When a student does something very good, he/she
will be praised; but the next time, the student probably won't be as
good, simply because average performances usually follow extreme
performances.  On the other hand, when a student does something
really dumb, he/she will probably be punished; and the next time,
the student's performance will probably not be as bad, because
again, average performances usually follow the extreme.  From the
teacher's point of view then, the punishment produced a better
performance while the praise was followed by a less good
performance.  The teacher is therefore inclined to believe that
punishment is more effective in producing results.

The article in Discover is full of all kinds of nifty things like
this: faulty reasoning that assumes statistical effects are due to
other causes.  Worthwhile reading for anyone in a decision-making
position.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 85 1109-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #218
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 218

Today's Topics:

         Books - Anderson & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Herbert &
                 King & Panshin & Vance &
                 Alternate History Bibliography &
                 Footfall,
         Television - Rumor from PBS,
         Miscellaneous - Telling the Plot (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 85 23:57:13 pdt
From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: The Broken Sword

Is anyone out there conversant on the differences between the 1954
and 1971 versions of Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword"?

-s

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 15 Jun 85 08:43:20 GMT

CHRIS%cit-vax@engvax.UUCP writes:
>     How does one express superlatives enough for the Chronicles of
>Thomas Covenant? There is so much going on in these books that it
>amazes me every time that I reread the series. As creative fantasy
>it's a work of art in my own (not so) humble opinion.  Personally,
>I belive that the Wounded Land series aren't so much good fantasy
>as an exposition on ethics couched as good fantasy.

Thank [REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR DEITY] for that! Someone who got
as big a mindf**k out of reading Thomas Covenant as I did. I was so
annoyed when it got slagged off in THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION
IV.  The guy who sent the article obviously did not understand what
it was all about. Thank you from the bottom of my ring for
reaffirming that I'm not the only idiot yelling in the wilderness
about how great these books are. Chris said everything I always say
and more.
        One thing. When I read them the first time, I sympathised
with Covenant,because I knew he would find it in him
eventually.  Perhaps lepers are everywhere.

                                        R.Ramsay

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 16 Jun 85 01:58:19 GMT

I've read 5 books of T.C., which I found compulsive reading.  There
are certainly some good ideas in the books, but I would shy WAY back
from a lot of the statements that have been made about the series.
There is a certain dreary sameness of tone in the books which
eventually killed my interest.  Something that I didn't notice
originally was that great tracts are tremendously overwritten or
contain other stylistic faults.  I am told (although I confess I
don't remember the passage) that the following sentence is taken
from a T.C. book:

        "The horses were virtually protrate on their feet."

One could, I suppose, take this to be poetic; but it gets to you
after a while.  This same problem occurs in what is otherwise a very
good story: "Unworthy of the Angel".

What really struck me as absurd was someone's statement in an
earlier article that there was no connection between the Land and
Middle Earth.  Donaldson himself has said that "I consider fiction
to be the only valid tool for theological inquiry."  Certainly there
is a strong mythopoeic quality to the books; what is more important
is the cosmology stated in the very first book.  Anyone who has read
the _Silmarillion_ should be able to recognize the obvious parallels
between Sauron and Lord Foul.  This is not to say that I think there
is any plagarism involved; but when two writers go to write
mythopoeic fiction dealing with cosmological issues, and when both
come out of a well-learned Judaeo-Christian background, it is to be
expected that there should be some parallels.

I would not say that the T.C. books are great literature (as I
would, for instance, say of LOTR).  On the other hand, there is
obvious talent there in spite of the various problems.

Charley Wingate   umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

From: ncoast!chandave@topaz.arpa (Davy Chan)
Subject: Request: Last chpt of Chapterhouse: Dune
Date: 12 Jun 85 23:21:46 GMT

Some time ago there was a discussion on the meaning of the last
chapter of Chapterhouse: Dune.  I have misplaced my copy of these
article(s).  If anyone archived them I would appreciate you mailing
them to me.  See ya...

d.c.

------------------------------

From: maynard!campbell@topaz.arpa (Larry Campbell)
Subject: Re: Stephen King a.k.a. Richard Bachman????
Date: 14 Jun 85 10:52:50 GMT

> Having just finished the book 'Thinner' by Richard Bachman, I am a
> bit puzzled by the small white wrapper which was around the book
> upon which was printed 'Stephen King writing as Richard
> Bachman'...

I've seen two articles in the past couple of months about this.
Seems publishers don't like to carry too many titles by one author
at a time; makes them hard to promote, and apparently they'll sell
more books if they wring one dry before publishing the next one.
But Steven King is one of the most prolific writers around today.
So he published a bunch of books under the Bachman name.  He's gone
public with it now, and I don't think he'll write any more under
that name.  The "author's picture" on some books is some random guy
from N.H., not named Bachman.

Larry Campbell
The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton St., Boston MA 02109
UUCP: {decvax, security, linus, mit-eddie}
      !genrad!enmasse!maynard!campbell
ARPA: decvax!genrad!enmasse!maynard!campbell@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Sequels - The Galactic Pantograph
Date: 20 Jun 85 06:00:24 GMT

I have heard it said that Panshin has mortgaged his career to pull a
fast one on Ace Books.  They bought his next n novels at one point
and paid him in advance.  He spent the advance payment but did not
want to write books if he was not going to get any more money for
them.  The loophole in the contract was that he could publish
co-authorships elsewhere.  That is why his wife's name has started
appearing on his books.  But nobody can get too enthusiastic about
publishing him after his little trick, so he is sort of a falling
star.  In the meantime his writing talent is flagging.  I don't
know for sure if this story is true.

                           Mark Leeper
                           ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: luke!bob@topaz.arpa (Bob Speray)
Subject: wanted: Jack Vance books
Date: 11 Jun 85 23:22:11 GMT

I am looking for some obscure paperback books by Jack Vance.

    Dying Earth     Hillman     1950
    Space Pirate    Toby Press  1953   digest sized
    Madman Theory   Pocket Bks  1966  ( as Ellery Queen )
    Bad Ronald      Ballantine  1973  ( as John Holbrook Vance )

I'm looking for the particular book described not just a copy of the
text.

I have equally obscure books by other authors available.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 85 11:43:39 EDT
From: KERN@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: Alternate History Bibliography
Cc: mtgzz!ecl%ihnp4.uucp@TOPAZ.ARPA

>     The idea of an alternate history is not rare in science
>fiction--a recent article the THE PROPER BOSKONIAN cited a
>bibliography over over a thousand stories!

        Please tell me how to get a copy of this bibliography.  I'm
sure the dozens of other alternate history fans would like to know
too.

Thanks,
Kevin B. Kern
KERN@RUTGERS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 85 14:45:54 PDT (Thursday)
From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Review: Footfall (Niven & Pournell)

I just finished Niven and Pournell's "Footfall", and have a few
things to say about it.  I guess this review is going to be "mixed"
to "favorable".

Overall, "Footfall" was a good, enjoyable read.  It wasn't nearly as
good as "The Mote in God's Eye", but it was on a par with "Lucifer's
Hammer".

The cover of the book loudly proclaims that this is "possibly the
greatest alien invasion story ever written."  I liked Heinlein's
"The Puppet Masters" better.  However, "Footfall" does have a lot
going for it.  While the ending was obvious by the halfway point
(and enjoyable anyway), there were quite a few unexpected twists.
And I do have respect for an author who has the guts to kill off a
central character or two, and can do it well.  I guess it helps that
there are so many character's that we can afford to lose a few.

Much like the Earth of "Lucifer's Hammer", the Earth of "Footfall"
is a small world.  That is, everybody important to the story somehow
knows everybody else in the story from when they were in high school
(or spy school, or Congress, or a bar in San Jose, or whatever)
together.  When this isn't annoying, it can be almost amusing.

The treatment of the aliens, the Fithp, left much to be desired.  I
just can't believe that an obviously intelligent, starfaring race
could be so stupid.  I also thought that the Fithp were much too
human to be convincing aliens.  Sure, they thought differently, but
a human that grew up in a Fithp society would think the same way,
barring hormonal differences.  In building aliens that a reader
could identify with, the authors created beings that are hardly
alien at all.  I found the aliens in "Startide Rising" much more
alien and much more believable.

The treatment of humans also left much to be desired.  Niven and
Pournell's characters are always much too white, too average, too
respectable.  As in "Lucifer's Hammer", every black character of any
consequence in "Footfall" was snuffed.  There were no Jews, no
orientals, no homosexuals, no character who was non-average in any
way except that he/she happened to be brave/stupid/(un)lucky enough
to be where the action was.  I'm sorry, but I found most of the
characters boring and predictable.

Nevertheless, I did like "Footfall".  It's probably not worth the
$20 I paid for the hardback (my friends and I take turns buying new
books in hardback so we don't have to wait for the paperback), but
it is worth reading.  As SCIENCE FICTION, it was very good.  As a
novel, it was okay.

Good reading,

Josh Susser
ARPA: Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 85 11:50:58 pdt
From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley
Subject: Neat rumour

        Latest neat rumour (from that ever present reliable source)
has the same group who did 'Lathe of Heaven' for PBS doing 'Left
Hand of Darkness', also for PBS. Leguin is said to want Glenda
Jackson for Estraven, although that might not happen.

                   Joe Kalash
                   ucbvax!unisoft!kalash
                   kalash@berkeley <- will get forwarded

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review)
Date: 9 Jun 85 13:46:35 GMT

"It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least
partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche.

May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in Wonderland
but I doubt if we think that ruins the book.  Do you people REALLY
think that rereading a book can never possibly be as much fun as
reading it the first time, because the book is -- horrors! -- "at
least partially ruined"?

For me, one of the significant differences between a good book and
one read only to kill time is that I can read the former again and
again and again, each time thrilling to the old things and noticing
new ones.  Edmund Wilson wrote a rather nice essay ("The Psychology
of Form vs the Psychology of Information") in which he drew a
significant distinction between reading the phone book and reading
Macbeth--and rereading them.

If Leeper was too busy to summarize the plot of the book being
reviewed, that's understandable.  Especially given the number of
Leeper reviews that appear every week.  If Leeper thought the book
wasn't worth summarizing, that's understandable too.  But as it is,
*grumph*.  (Ah well, the same stupid attitude manifests itself in
the popular use of the term "spoiler."  *Grumph* again.)

Incidentally, I just finished rereading the original two ALICE books
in the annotated version -- and am pleased to report that THAT
didn't "spoil" or "ruin" them for me.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review)
Date: 18 Jun 85 07:38:43 GMT

> "It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least
> partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche.
>
> May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in
> Wonderland but I doubt if we think that ruins the book.  Do you
> people REALLY think that rereading a book can never possibly be as
> much fun as reading it the first time, because the book is --
> horrors! -- "at least partially ruined"?

Well, let me re-phrase myself--if I tell you the plot, I will ruin
the enjoyment you'll get from watching it unfold yourself.  Watching
the "Alice" chess game develop is more fun than having someone
explain it all to you first, at least for me.

> If Leeper was too busy to summarize the plot of the book being
> reviewed, that's understandable.  Especially given the number of
> Leeper reviews that appear every week.

Don't forget that half of the "Leeper reviews" are by *Mark* Leeper,
not me.

If enough people wannt me to stop posting reviews, I will bow to
public opinion.  Otherwise, use the 'n' key.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review)
Date: 12 Jun 85 14:57:02 GMT

>"It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least
>partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche.

This is the other Leeper, but I also have views on the
responsibilities of a reviewer.

>May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in Wonderland
>but I doubt if we think that ruins the book.  Do you people REALLY
>think that rereading a book can never possibly be as much fun as
>reading it the first time, because the book is -- horrors!  -- "at
>least partially ruined"?

"Ruin" is a strong word.  All kinds of nasty things can be done to
the reading experience without totally ruining it.  What is
important is does the review DETRACT FROM THE PLEASURE of reading
the story.  If so the reviewer should not do it.  Sure, a second
reading can be more fun than the first, so what?  Does that make it
justified for the reviewer diminishing the pleasure on the first
reading?  The second reading is more pleasurable not because the
reader knows the plot in advance, usually, but because the reader
sees more in the story.  And even in the hypothetical case that
knowing the plot in advance actually would improve the experience,
that is apparently not the author's intention.  Otherwise the story
would start out "This is the story of how...".

The real problem of reviewing is the work that cannot be reviewed
without detracting from the experience.  Somebody took me to task
recently for spoiling a surprise in the film LADYHAWKE, that of
revealing the nature of the curse.  The complaint was quite correct
and I have no idea what a good review of this film would be since it
is virtually impossible to say anything of substance about the film
without revealing the nature of the curse.  Every review I saw
spoiled this surprise.  Perhaps this is a film that really should
not be reviewed at all.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review)
Date: 14 Jun 85 18:14:08 GMT

>> Don't forget that half of the "Leeper reviews" are by *Mark*
>> Leeper, not me.
>>                                      Evelyn C. Leeper
>
>That's what you'd like us to believe, I'm sure, but I happen to
>know that Mark and Evelyn Leeper are... *the same person*!

Curses, I have been discovered!
                                Evelyn C. Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 85 1132-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #219
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 219

Today's Topics:

           Books - Ellison (3 msgs) & Zelazny (3 msgs) &
                   Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers &
                   Green China Doll,
           Films - Night of the Lepus & Warriors of the Wind,
           Television - Banned TV Shows & Sequels (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison
Date: 12 Jun 85 15:32:34 GMT

root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) writes:
>chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>> off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. ....
>How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence?  The
>idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee another
>writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines around it.

In the Bova/Ellison case, the network had bought Brillo with a
creative control clause for Ellison and Bova -- Ellison and Bova
came to realize that the network was making crap from a pretty good
story, and couldn't get them to stop, so they withdrew the story.
The network made the show anyway, trying to use just this argument.
And lost.
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 14 Jun 85 19:55:18 GMT

> The court will then decide strictly on the merits of the stories
> whether plagiarism has occurred or Ellison is just being a
> litiginous swine.  Since I respect Ellison, I hope it will be the
> former, but time will tell.
>                               Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

I basically agree with Jim, but would like to expand a little on his
points and request some information.

I think that regarding Ellison as a litiginous swine rests on the
assumption that his basis for suit was in fact the Outer Limits
episodes mentioned in earlier postings.  Having seen these episodes,
I'd have to say that *if* Ellison based an action on those episodes
*then* he is a litiginous swine.  Ellison's position in the Brillo
affair is (it seems to me) more respectable.

If, as in the Brillo case, Ellison was hired to work on The
Terminator in some capacity, and was fired under somewhat unjust
circumstances, I'd have more sympathy with his position.

Therefore: Does anyone out there in netland have information on
either of these two points:

    Was Harlan Ellison hired in any capacity during production of or
    planning for The Terminator?

    If not, does anyone know for (fairly) certain the grounds the
    Destroyer Lawyer (hmpf!) was planning to base his case?

Since I lack information on these two points, I don't have an
opinion on Ellison's litiginousness or swinehood.

Wayne Throop
at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 85 09:12 EDT
From: schneider.WBST@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #204

J Gomez at OSU writes:
>The movie version of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the most
>faithful adaptions of a wirtten work Hollywood has ever done.  The
>ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word for word.....

Spoiler warning....

While the movie version has Vic and Blood walking off into the
sunset with Blood comment on the girl's intelligence "although she
did have good taste," the Ellison work has Vic's thoughts as the
ending: "I kept hearing her voice in my head, asking me if I knew
what love was.  Sure I did, a boy loves his dog, doesn't he?"

The different endings change the whole context of the story, I think
the movie is rather barbaric and callous toward women, with no point
made, while the book shows a clear conflict with some interesting
resolutions.

The moral is see the movie, but read the book too.

Regards-
Eric

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 14 Jun 1985 11:02:12-PDT
From: goldenberg%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ruth Goldenberg)
Subject: "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" by Zelazny

I just finished a first reading of a Zelazny story in the July
IASFM, and I'm surprised not to have noticed it mentioned here
already. (Did I miss it?) It's called "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by
Hokusai".

I'm not going to try to describe its plot or review it. I will say,
however, that this story should really cheer any of you out there
like me who have been disappointed by Zelazny's more recent work. My
library is still in boxes after a move, so I can't quote titles that
disappointed me other than to cite the Amber series, which seemed
awfully light and puffy and beneath him.

In my opinion, this story should be classed up there with Lord of
Light; Dream Master; This Immortal; (~)Door of his Mouth, Lamps of
his Eyes; Rose for Ecclesiastes and other great short stories. I
think it has soul (which is doubtless as difficult to define as
quality and possibly more rare).

I haven't been buying sf magazines or many anthologies the past 5-10
years.  If Zelazny's been writing stories of this quality that I've
missed, I hope someone like Jerry Boyajian or SZKB will point me to
them. "...I'd go mental in a corner, and joy would be my middle
name."

reg

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 85 11:49:36 pdt
From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley
Subject: Zelazny book

> For Zelazny at his best try "Doorway in the Sand", "Isle of the
> Dead" or "To Die in Italbar"

        Oh my LORD you have bad taste. Doorway is VERY light frothy
adventure, and Italbar is probably his worst book, he published it
ONLY to fulfill a publishing contract, and he admits himself that it
isn't all that good. If you want a light adventure, try "Jack of
Shadows". For something more deep, try "Dream Master", "This
Immortal" or "Creatures of Light and Darkness".

                        Joe Kalash

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Zelazny & Computers
Date: 15 Jun 85 14:01:43 GMT

Suggesting that the author of "For a Breath I Tarry" shouldn't deal
with computers!  Sacrilege!  (No, I haven't read the later book, but
I do recommend the earlier Faustian story.)

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: warwick@blott.DEC
Subject: Re: STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS
Date: 13 Jun 85 12:56:02 GMT

        I bought this book for 20p in a sale at my local library,
and as such it rates as one of the best bargains I've ever bought. I
thought that it was extremely funny - especially the poke at
E.E.Smith, cause you've got to admit, that some of his stuff was a
little corny in places.

trevor warwick
Engineering Division, Digital Equipment Corporation,
Reading, England.
UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-tron!warwick
ARPA: warwick%tron.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 85 23:50:07 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  "Prey"

>...a vicious native doll who terrorizes the woman who bought it

Reminds me strongly of a story which circulated among us when we
were kids, called "The Green China Doll".  There were, as with any
good folk story, as many versions as tellers.  Some years later, I
was given a phone call by a woman who was collecting versions of the
story for her dissertation on folklore.  Do you know a version of
it?

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: A comment on NIGHT OF THE LEPUS
Date: 14 Jun 85 16:55:01 GMT

Someone who wrote to me recently was complaining how bad the film
NIGHT OF THE LEPUS was.  I have a comment about that...

NIGHT OF THE LEPUS has an undeserved reputation for being really
bad.  It is really only mediocre.  We have a tendency to think of
rabbits as little meek things and to find them cute so it is hard to
think of them as monsters.  YEAR OF THE ANGRY RABBIT, which I am
told was quite decent as a book, was not a good choice to be made
into a film.  The film was not THAT terrible, it just wasn't very
good.  It was no worse than, say, KINGDOM OF THE SPIDERS, a similar
film that got away without all the notoriety that LEPUS got.  Some
breeds of rabbit, I am told, can be fierce fighters and large
rabbits that fierce could easily be dangerous.  It didn't help the
film that some of the visualizations of the rabbits looked like
something out of Captain Kangaroo.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: genat!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stephenson)
Subject: Re: NAUSICAA - Warriors of the Wind (Movie)
Date: 13 Jun 85 18:32:49 GMT

> From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
>
> I have just seen the trailer to a new film to be released real
> soon.  Entitled "Warriors of the Wind", it is the english adaption
> of a Japanese epic "Nausicca." [With an um-laut over the last A]

I am pleased to hear that this exceptional piece of animation will
be making it into the North American market.  By the way, the title
as our people translated it from Japanese was "Nausicaa in the
Valley of the Winds", but this doesn't really matter much.

Interestingly enough, the folks who produced this movie, and who
also produce such jems as Lupin III, are planning a second Nausicaa
movie, also adapted from the manga (Japanese comics) from which
sprung the original movie.

Mike Stephenson

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry.
Date: 14 Jun 85 03:31:13 GMT

        Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the
U.S.?  I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas &
four were banned in Britain, the reason being violence.
        The reasons given for the banning in Texas indicate that
some of the British shows may run in to similar problems. Notably
THE PYRAMIDS OF MARS story from DR WHO dealing with Egyptian Gods &
THE TROUBLESOME SPIRIT & LAMBDA FACTOR episodes of 1999 dealing with
ghosts and strange powers. Has this happened?

Andy T.

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 23:52:13 PDT
Subject: Serials - Continuing

One the subject of writing a sequel if the publisher wants one...

Douglas Adams once explained the reason behind the 6th and 7th
episode of the original Hitchhiker's Guide.  It seems they only
wrote one seasons worth, and after that they killed off all the main
characters.

When the BBC requested additional stories, the writers cooked up the
sceme of time-dropping and the ancient earth with kangaroo drive and
saved the characters from the final curtain.
        This was not too noticeable in the final release over here.

Victor O'Rear
{ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
crash!victoro@nosc
crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

From: crystal!shp@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Sequels
Date: 14 Jun 85 01:03:49 GMT

> Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that Lord
> of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to listen to
> anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a nice
> story).

   "The Lord of the Rings" isn't a sequel to "The Hobbit."  Not
really, anyway.  Kind of like chapter two isn't really a sequel to
chapter one, nor is chapter one really a sequel to the preface.  Go
back and re-read your Tolkien, if you do not understand.

   Not that this is really relevant; I just didn't want to let it
pass as it stands (your point and deleted argument are QUITE valid).

        =shp

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 14 Jun 1985 13:38:42-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Series, sequels, and SF/Fantasy

One of the latest "hot topics" in this bulletin is the question of
whether sequels and series books deserve the merit of the original
publication.  We've seen discussions of the Foundation series, the
DUNE series, and others, with a heavy emphasis on criticizing the
author's intentions in these cases.  We've also heard (gently) a
reminder that writers "have to eat, too."  All of these discussions
have revolved around the intentions of the authors, or their
publishers, although the original criticism did attack readers who
delight in one book after another in a series.

Certainly, the series concept is being overdone.  I personally have
postponed my reading of the "Thomas Covenant" series until it stops
growing.  It seems that every time I go to the bookstore to pick up
the first few in this series, it has grown by another book or two.
It's rather like sitting down to eat from a bottomless lunchbox --
disheartening and eventually nauseating.

But I am also guilty of welcoming the appearance of new books in
some series that I have truly enjoyed.  I didn't have to read
Asimov's original short stories that were the basis for Foundation
and Second Foundation, to know that Foundation's Edge was neither
planned when the concept was first published, nor is it really a
necessary part of the original trilogy.  It was obvious to me, as
its reader, that Foundation's Edge is an interesting continuation of
a story that was pretty much concluded in Second Foundation.
However, I enjoyed Foundation so much that I was happy to visit the
same characters in the sequel.

In the Science Fiction genre, and, to some extent, in Fantasy also,
an author faces a challenge unique in literature, in that an entire
technological premise or alternate universe must be described in
satisfactory detail without damaging the plot of the book: the
action that keeps a reader involved with the story and characters.
I have read many, many books where the author accomplished this
within the limitation of one cover.  I assert that the trilogy

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 14 Jun 1985 15:08:31-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Series and sequels in SF and Fantasy

My deepest apologies -- the previous mail message was accidentally cut
off.  I'll never get used to VMS quirks!

My original point, however, was a discussion of the value of series
in Science Fiction and Fantasy.  I was just beginning to explain my
feeling that Science Fiction authors (and, to a degree, authors of
Fantasy) have a very special problem: how to describe a world that
is alien to the readers' experience?  Many short stories in the
field exemplify the skill of certain authors in drawing from the
readers' own experience to create the desired setting.  But the
books that really explain and detail the worlds, technology, and
society in great detail are often enhanced by second, or even third
volumes.  U. K. LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogy, for example, views
Earthsea from three different perspectives, each focusing on a
different aspect, while the three books cooperate to draw a
realistic, detailed view.

I share some of the opinions voiced here about the repetitive and
trivial nature about some sequels, but I find them valuable at
times, and often a great joy.

One series, however, seems to have gone beyond the limits of good
taste.  I am a lover of Herbert's Dune since I first read it.  The
concept lost its flavor with the second of the books, and I
mercilessly forced myself to read God Emperor.  My latest visit to
the bookstore showed me that there are at least 3 more in the
series!  Needless to say, I will not be so eager to begin them.  But
I find it highly amusing that the Dune Dictionary won the HUGO.  I
guess I'm not the only one starting to get lost! :-) But I'm not so
relieved to find such a reference as those who choose the award
winners.  I'm not going to bother with any more Dune books.  Frank
Herbert has some fine and interesting publications that are totally
unrelated to the series.  I suggest White Plague as an interesting
alternative.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 85 1202-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #220
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 17 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 220

Today's Topics:

                Books - SF Poll (2 msgs),
                Films - The Black Cauldron & Alien,
                Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Literary Sterility (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa
Subject: SF Poll. "Best" 59 books (so far). Film at 11.
Date: 12 Jun 85 01:09:36 GMT

    Well here's the current state of the poll, keep those cards and
letters coming! (Those of you who tried to send mail within the last
five days - this is June 11 - probably got it returned with an
obscure mailer error, mea culpa, as is the way of all programmers i
was trying to "improve" my machine environment and accidentally blew
myself out of the water. Sigh. Please repost).
    I tried to send mail to everyone who responded so far, but it
looks like many have "gone off system", when the final tally is in
i'll include a list of all who contributed.
    Call to Chris Jarocha-Ernst - Please mail old list! Thanks.

    Here are the top 59 books ordered by number of votes and within
each block alphabetically by author. So far i have received about 40
mail messages with 500 (!!) books recommended with about 145 authors
in all. To me there seem to be many unexplained "oversights" (like
Hogan,Blish,Ballard,Chalker,Campbell,Delaney,Duane,Tiptree,etc!).
But then if i knew what was "Canonical" i wouldn't have to run the
poll in the first place.
    Keep 'em coming!

Asimov, Isaac - I, Robot (2)
Asprin, Robert - Another Fine Myth (2)
Beagle, Peter - The Last Unicorn (2)
Bester, Alfred - The Demolished Man (2)
Bradley, Marion - The Darkover Series (2)
Bradbury, Ray - Fahrenheit 451 (2)
Brin, David - The Practice Effect (2)
Brunner, John - Shockwave Rider (2)
Brust, Steven - Jhereg (2)
Brust, Steven - Yendi (2)
Clarke, Arthur - Rendezvous with Rama (2)
De Camp, L. Sprague and Pratt, Fletcher - The Complete Enchanter (2)
Dickson, Gordon R. - The Tactics of Mistake (2)
Eddings, David - The Belgariad Pentology (2)
Gibson, William - Neuromancer (2)
Haldeman, Joe - The Forever War (2)
Harrison, Harry - Bill, the Galactic Hero (2)
Harrison, Harry - Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers (2)
Heinlein, Robert - Starship Troopers (2)
Heinlein, Robert - The Puppet Masters (2)
LeGuin, Ursula - The Left Hand of Darkness (2)
Lem, Stanislaw - The Cyberiad (2)
McKinley, Robin - Beauty (2)
May, Julian - The Saga of the Pleocene Exile Tetrology (2)
Myers Myers, John - Silverlock (2)
Niven, Larry - Protector (2)
Niven, Larry - The Integral Trees (2)
Panshin, Alexei - Rite of Passage (2)
Piper, H. Beam - Little Fuzzy (2)
Pohl, Frederick - Gateway (2)
Robinson, Spider - Callahan's Crosstime Salloon (2)
Rosenberg, Joel - The Guardians of the Flame Series (2)
Stasheff, Christopher - The Warlock in Spite of Himself (2)
Vance, Jack - The Dying Earth (2)
Wells, H. G. - The War of The Worlds  (2)
Wyndham, John - The Midwich Cuckoos (2)
Zelazny, Roger - The Doors of His Face, The Lamps of His Mouth (2)

Asimov, Isaac - The Foundation Tetrology (3)
Brunner, John - The Sheep Look Up (3)
Brunner, John - Stand on Zanzibar (3)
Clement, Hal - Mission of Gravity (3)
Donaldson, Steven R. - The Thomas Covenant Trilogy (3)
Farmer, Philip - To Your Scattered Bodies Go (3)
Ford, John - The Final Reflection (3)
Heinlein, Robert - Stranger in a Strange Land (3)
LeGuin, Ursula - The Dispossessed (3)
McCaffery, Anne - The Pern books (3)
Smith, E. E. 'Doc' - The Lensman Series (3)
Zelazny, Roger - Creatures of Light and Darkness (3)

Brin, David - Sundiver (4)
Herbert, Frank - Dune (4)
Heinlein, Robert - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (4)
Tolkien, J. R. R. - The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (4)
Varley, John - The Persistence of Vision (collection of short
    stories) (4)
Zelazny, Roger - Lord of Light (4)

Niven, Larry - Ringworld (5)
Wolfe, Gene - The Book of the New Sun Tetrology (5)

Brin, David - Startide Rising (6)
Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry - The Mote in God's Eye (6)

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Re: SF Poll. Top 40 authors. Notes on format etc.
Date: 15 Jun 85 02:21:15 GMT

Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>Can we make negative votes on authors in your list - each negative
>vote cancelling out one positive vote?
>Dave

    Uhhhh....Run that past me one more time? Since this is a list of
the Canonical books in SF it seems to me that everyone should have a
say, meaning that if someone went to all the trouble of mailing me a
book title it will appear _somewhere_ in the list - although if few
others thought it important/entertaining enough it would not be high
in the list. It seems that your suggestion would be conducive to a
species of "Poll Wars". By the way this is no more "my list" than it
is yours (or any net.sf-lovers reader for that matter) - anyone who
wants to vote gets equal attention. Also, i note the use of
"authors" - this is _not_ a list of "best authors", but "books that
everyone should read".
    Was this a joke i missed or what?
                Greg.

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

Date: Sun 16 Jun 85 01:33:46-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The Black Cauldron

>> ...The Black Cauldron....but the title sounds promising.
>      Sounds promising?  Don't you recognize it?  You mean you've
> never read Lloyd Alexander?[...]
>
> The Book of Three
> The Black Cauldron
> The Castle of Llyr
> Taran Wanderer
> The High King
>                                 der Mouse

     I don't claim to have specific knowledge of where Disney's
writers are getting their plot, but to automatically assume that The
Black Cauldron derives from Lloyd Alexanders' work is a little like
saying that an earlier Disney opus 'The Sword in the Stone' is based
on the film 'Camelot'.

        Cauldrons appear in several places in ancient Celtic legend.
The cauldron most likely to be involved in the movie is the one
featured in the story 'Branwen Daughter of Llyr', the oldest
surviving manuscript being in The White Book of Rhydderch, which
dates to 1300-1325 AD.  The story is thought to date back to about
1050, and may well be a 'modernization' of something far older. The
cauldron had the property that if you threw a dead soldier into it,
the next morning he would have revived (save that he could not speak
and give away the secrets of the underworld).

        If you have the slightest interest in reading the original,
I highly recommend that you track down a copy the 'The Mabinogion'
by Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones. This scholarly translation of The
Four Ancient Books of Wales first appeared in 1948, but continues in
print.  My copy is a '74 Dent paperback, but there is also Dutton US
paperback (ISBN 0 460 01097 2). The language is a little strange,
sort of a King James English, but it carries the alien feel of the
original stories very well.

        Another translation of the stories appears in 'Celtic Myth
and Legend' by Charles Squire (Newcastle, ISBN 0 87877 030 5), a
trade paperback facsimile of 'The mythology of the British Isles',
1905.  Squire tried to pull the raveled threads of legend together
into one coherent mythos, and what the tales gain in self
consistency they lose in power. However, it does tell (with a
Victorian gloss) the tales, including some not in The Mabinogion.

        Whenever I read a modern fantasy 'based on' an actual myth
of which I have read the original (or a faithful translation) I find
things that put my teeth on edge.  It isn't the departures
(sometimes major) from the orginal plot line that bothers me so much
as finding late 20th century ethics and mores being espoused by Dark
Age men and women.

        It annoys me to find the ancient tales used as a vehicle for
contemporary ideas. The original is so much stranger and wonderful.
Here is a short abstract from 'The Voyage of Mael duin'. MD and his
companions are on a voyage of exploration, and are running out food:

         "Now when those apples failed, and their hunger and thirst
     were great, and when their mouths and their noses were full of
     the stench of the sea, they sight an island which was not
     large, and therein (stood) a fort surrounded by a white, high
     rampart as if it were built of burnt lime, or as if it were all
     one rock of chalk.  Great was its height from the sea; it all
     but reached the clouds. The fort was open wide. Round the
     rampart were great, snow-white houses. When they entered the
     largest of these they saw no one there, save a small cat which
     was in the midst of the house, playing on the four stone
     pillars that were there. It was leaping from one pillar to the
     other. It looked a little at the men, and did not stop itself
     from its play.  After that they saw three rows on the wall of
     the house round about, from one doorpost to the other. A row
     there, first, of brooches of gold and of silver, with their
     pins in the wall, and a row of neck-torques of gold and of
     silver: like hoops of a vat was each of them. The third row
     (was) of great swords, with hilts of gold and of silver.  The
     rooms were full of white quilts and shining garments. A roasted
     ox, moreover, and a flitch in the midst of the house, and great
     vessels with good intoxicating liquor. "Hath this been left for
     *us*?" saith Mael duin to the cat. It looked at him suddenly
     and began to play again. Then Mael duin recognized that it was
     for them that the dinner had been left. So they dined and drank
     and slept. They put the leavings of thee liquor into the pots,
     and stored up the leavings of the food. Now when they proposed
     to go, Mael duin's third fosterbrother said: "Shall I take with
     me a necklace of these necklaces?" "Nay," saith Mael duin, "not
     without a guard is the house". Howbeit he took it as far as the
     middle of the enclosure. The cat followed them, and leapt
     through him (the fosterbrother) like a fiery arrow, and burnt
     him so that he became ashes, and (then) went back till it was
     on its pillar. Then Mael duin soothed the cat with his words,
     and set the necklace in its place, and cleansed the ashes from
     the floor of the enclosure, and cast them on the shore of the
     sea.
          Then they went on board their boat, praising and
     magnifying the Lord."

        This, and many other original tales evoke for me the 'sense
of wonder' which I find missing in such modern glosses as 'The Mists
of Avalon.'
                                Peter Trei
                                oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 14 Jun 85 14:35:40 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>After Fox made ALIEN, Van Vogt threatened to sue over similarities
>to his "Discord in Scarlet."  Apparently egg-laying aliens is
>another owned idea.

I object, Mark!  When I saw Alien I thought so much was taken that I
expected to see Van Vogt in the credits.  It's not just an
egg-laying alien ... it's an alien picked up by an interstellar ship
that lays eggs in people and lurks almost indetectably in the ship
picking off a crewman at a time in horrible ways.  I don't disagree
with your Ellison points -- he disowned his only work that I've ever
liked, so he gets no sympathy from me -- but I think your sarcasm is
uncalled for on this one.  Besides, Van Vogt didn't sue, did he?

Jim Gillogly
{decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: icdoc!iwm@topaz.arpa (Ian Moor)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 14 Jun 85 09:10:55 GMT

hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes:
>the most incongruities and logical flaws.  Two of my favorites were
>the never-ending supplies of people and "Eagle" space craft.  They
>seemed to loose at least one and usually several of each every
>episode without creating any shortages, or even much concern.

Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ...  What about the
never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise (the ones
at the tail end of the group that got grabbed zapped or whatever..
and the other one "Smith go back and find out what happened to
Jones"

Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in
Battlestar pathetica ?

Ian W Moor
Department of Computing
180 Queensgate
London SW7 Uk.

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 15 Jun 85 19:48:46 GMT

> *PLEASE* can those who are guilty stop slagging Space 1999, UFO et
> al.  There was nothing wrong with them when you were young.
> (weren't you guys *ever* kids?)

I was twelve when 1999 first premiered.  I thought it was bug eyed
monsters then. The premiere had radiation turning people's eyes into
fried eggs.  (Remember that?)  The show was bug eyed monsters and
more bug eyed monsters.

> Who gives a toss about the force required to blast the moon out of
> the Earths orbit? Most sci-fi is far fetched - it's meant to be.

But why does it have to be?  Couldn't the writers have spent a
little more time with the typewriter and taken it out of the realm
of bug eyed monsters?  The show had potential.  The show's budget
was adequate.  Catherine Schell, Barry Morse, and the Landaus were
all adequate.  The scripts that made the actors say the dumbest
lines were the problem.  Those same script writers shot the moon out
of orbit.  I say shoot the writers!

> Constructive criticism and personal opinions yes, but cut out the
> slagging.

What's the difference?  This is the net, land of flames :-)

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: literary sterility
Date: 12 Jun 85 13:56:22 GMT

reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA writes:
>> Charlie Martin writes:
>>Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were
>>never able to become engrossed in the story?  Where you were
>>always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book?  Then I
>>believe you were reading something that I call sterile.
>
>Odd definition of literary sterility.  The term "sterility" is
>usually meant to convey something incapable of reproducing, so I
>would have thought literary sterility to mean that the work in
>question is a dead end, that it will have no influence on future
>works, perhaps that it does not stimulate speculation or thought.
>Your use of "sterility" strikes me as, intentional or not, an
>attempt to misuse a word so that you can take advantage of its
>perjorative connotations.  ...

Sorry, Charlie's definition of literary sterility is close to the
standard one. From Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College
Edition:

    ... 3. lacking in interest or vitality; not stimulating or
        effective [a sterile style] ...

I won't presume to respond to the rest of your response to him, but
I did want to set the record straight on this point.

                      -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: literary sterility
Date: 12 Jun 85 20:38:29 GMT

and Bill's response reminds me, when I said that we were approaching
a concensus, it didn't mean that Bill and DAvis and I all *agree* --
just want to make sure this wasn't misrepresented.

I'll be out of town for a week or so, have fun while I'm gone.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jun 85 1008-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #221
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 18 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 221

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bear & King & Robinson & Walton &
                     Carcinoma Angel (2 msgs),
             Films - Alien,
             Television - Space: 1999 (4 msgs) & Gerry Anderson,
             Miscellaneous - Sequels & SFL Party

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 18 Jun 1985 05:21:52-PDT
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: "NIGHT OF POWER" & "BLOOD MUSIC"

     "NIGHT OF POWER" has been on the shelf for over a month, just
thought I'd let you know.

      I have just finished the new Greg Bear book "BLOOD MUSIC", I
think it is wonderful. "BLOOD MUSIC" is about genetic experiments &
the results. I rate this book an 9 (out of 10).  The book is only in
hardcover right now and is kind of hard to find, but, its worth
looking for.

    *** don't read the cover blurbs as they contain spoilers ***

      I would give a more in-depth review, but, anything I say could
give away part of the plot.
                  later,
                  KEN COBB

------------------------------

Subject: Stephen King
From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (M.A. Murphy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1985 01:45 EDT

Since someone already answered the query about the King/Bachman
picture discrepancy, I shall avoid duplication.

I would like to say that Stephen King does not look, in person,
quite like his representation on Am. Express commercials.  Make up
can do wonders...  Not to say that he is ugly, but he does look a
lot better on the commercials than when I have seen him walking his
dog.  Maybe it's because his dog is ugly...  and that just detracts
from King himself.  Oh well.  Now you all know that Stephen King has
an ugly dog...

------------------------------

Date: Mon 17 Jun 85 14:55:42-PDT
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Night of Power

Night of Power by Spider Robinson was a May 85 hardcover from Baen
Books (the independent science fiction editor for Pocket Books) and
distributed by Simon and Schuster.  I would be totally amazed if you
could find the book at a chain bookstore.

Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 05:49:00 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: The Mabinogion (with a hard "g"!)

The person who despairs of what has been wreaked on the Four
Branches over the centuries might do well to look up the original
Welsh -- after all, even translations are defiling! (:-) Seriously,
the best editions to be had for study are those published by the
Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies.  Each Branch (there are only
2 out so far, maybe 3 by now) comes framed with introduction and
copious notes, and there is a glossary in back.  For the brave.  And
the purist.

For the cowardly, the best modern version I know is (Great Arawn in
Annwfn!)  the four modern interpretations by Evangeline Walton.
They are (with their respective Branch names in English & Welsh)

The Prince of Annwn
    ("Pwyll Pendefic Dyfed"; Pwyll Prince of Dyfed)
The Children of Llyr
    ("Branwen ferch Llyr"; Branwen Daughter of Llyr)
The Song of Rhianon
    ("Manawyddan fab Llyr; Manawyddan Son of Llyr)
The Island of the Mighty
    ("Math fab Mathonwy"; Math Son of Mathonwy)

I don't find Walton taking liberties with the stories.  She uses the
bare Branches as a framework, laying on them leaves of her own
interpretation, in the same way as I fancy the tale-tellers of old
must have done, using the simple versions as mnemonics for the plot.
This is why the original Branches are so short.  (The Dublin Inst.
books are more notes than text!)

Walton's stories are good stuff.  Conflict of culture & ideals,
conflict between this World and the Otherworld, tragedy and heroism,
archetypes, adventures, fighting, loving, and like that.  I
recommend them even to those (and there seem to be many on this
list...) who dislike Fantasy.

It's such a shame that her later works are not up to par.  Sigh.

Bendithion i chi!
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: Carcinoma Angel
Date: 16 Jun 85 16:15:38 GMT

For some reason the title "Carcinoma Angel" has been floating around
in my head.  I think it would make a good name for a rock group or
something.  In any case, I'm sure it's the title for an SF story I
read, but I can't remember where or what it is about.  I think it
might have been by Harlan Ellison.  Is this right?  Does anyone know
what it is about?
                        -Doug Alan
                          nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP {or ARPA}

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angel
Date: 24 Jun 85 07:16:38 GMT

>For some reason the title "Carcinoma Angel" has been floating
>around in my head.  I think it would make a good name for a rock
>group or something.  In any case, I'm sure it's the title for an SF
>story I read, but I can't remember where or what it is about.  I
>think it might have been by Harlan Ellison.  Is this right?  Does
>anyone know what it is about?

Let me be the first of the 139 people who are going to answer this
one.  "The Carcinoma Angels" is a story by Norman Spinrad from his
collection LAST HURRAH OF THE GOLDEN HORDE.  It contains images of
cancer cells riding through the characters body like motercycle
riders.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 24 Jun 85 07:11:23 GMT

>>After Fox made ALIEN, Van Vogt threatened to sue over similarities
>>to his "Discord in Scarlet."  Apparently egg-laying aliens is
>>another owned idea.
>
> I object, Mark!  When I saw Alien I thought so much was taken that
> I expected to see Van Vogt in the credits.  It's not just an
> egg-laying alien ...  it's an alien picked up by an interstellar
> ship that lays eggs in people

Sorry, the idea of a creature that lays its eggs in other creatures
and uses them distructively to incubate them was used long ago by a
fellow named E. Coli.  Mr. Coli has been using this idea for
millions of years now.  Admittedly he is not an alien, but you don't
see him every day.

>and lurks almost indetectibly in the ship picking off a crewman at
>a time in horrible ways.

The alien creature was an amalgam of the least esthetic traits of
several different Terrestrial creatures.  For example, left on the
the cutting room floor was the scene in which Capt. Dallas was found
alive, trussed up in silk the way a spider would, to be feasted on a
bit at a time.  (An early review, based on the prerelease version
especially mentioned this nightmarish scene--I bet it would have
been a good one, too.)  Apparently the scene was cut out just before
release and I am told it is still in the novel.  Other places it
looks and grabs like a crab, etc.  In any case, it is easy to see
that they have it reproduce by pumping genetic material into a
victim like a wasp or a virus, and letting it incubate, leaving the
victim alive, until they hatch and eat their way out.  I really
think that the similarities to "Discord" are coincidental.  And
regrettable but accidental.

>I don't disagree with your Ellison points -- he disowned his only
>work that I've ever liked, so he gets no sympathy from me -- but I
>think your sarcasm is uncalled for on this one.  Besides, Van Vogt
>didn't sue, did he?

He threatened to, I have heard, and got a payoff, much like the
happened in the recent Ellison incident.  Forry Ackerman talked at a
convention about how he convinced Van Vogt to sue.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 16 Jun 85 03:18:13 GMT

> *PLEASE* can those who are guilty stop slagging Space 1999, UFO et
> al.  There was nothing wrong with them when you were young.
> (weren't you guys *ever* kids?)  Who gives a toss about the force
> required to blast the moon out of the Earths orbit? Most sci-fi is
> far fetched - it's meant to be.  Constructive criticism and
> personal opinions yes, but cut out the slagging.

Now seriously, if the premise for a story -- any story -- is
implausible then it's a bad premise.  The usual consequence of this
is a bad story as well.  "Space: 1999" wasn't intended for children
any more than was, say "Star Trek", but it tended to stretch the
willing suspension of disbelief a hell of a lot further.  This
wasn't due to exotic imagination, just a lack of understanding of
some fundamentals of SF craftsmanship.

You see, I don't read "sci-fi" books or watch "sci-fi" pictures.  My
interest is SF.  I'm not necessarily talking about literature with a
heavy message, just well-constructed fiction.  I like quality
merchandise, and "Space: 1999" never gave me that.

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

Date: Mon 17 Jun 85 13:50:24-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Space 1999

Although the TV series never really did give a credible explanation
for the speed with which they seemed to wander all over the
universe, there was an associated book which told a complete story
from the moon's blasting out of orbit right through to an eventual
return to earth many tens of years later. I can't recall the author
but the atmosphere created by the book and the far better scientific
accuracy was way above anything the TV series ever managed. I won't
spoil the ending though for those who may want to read it.

In one episode of the tv series, they did re-establish contact with
the earth and Konig (plus a couple of others) are teleported back to
earth only to be catapulted somewhere into the middle ages by an
earth quake upsetting the teleporting machinery on earth. Needless
to say, they wind up back on Alpha just before some celestial body
gets between the moon and the earth ending communication for x
thousand (?) years.

The local ITV region here (Grampian) thought the last series so bad
that they opted out of transmitting it and only finally ran it years
later in a Saturday morning childrens slot. I was annoyed at their
original decision not to show it, but after watching it they were
undoubtedly right !
                                Alan Greig
                                The Computer Centre
                                Dundee College of Technology
                                Dundee
                                Scotland

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 17 Jun 85 19:45:54 GMT

iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) writes:
>What about the never-ending supply of security officers on the
>Enterprise (the ones at the tail end of the group that got grabbed
>zapped or whatever..  and the other one "Smith go back and find out
>what happened to Jones"

The Enterprise could replace lost personnel anytime it docked at a
major star base.  Moonbase Alpha had no such outside resources.

>Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in
>Battlestar pathetica ?

Probably.  The writers on that show tried to make a lot of things
sound exotically scientific by tacking the suffix "on" on to them.
Spiders became "crawlons", for example.  This is somewhat
reminiscent of the _old_ Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon serials where
everything had "o" appended to it. ("They're using the dissolvo
ray!").

The next Hollywood sci-fi disaster will probably start adding "ono"
to everything (Creativity?  What're you?  Some kind of communist?
(-: ).  It's enough to give you nightmares.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 17 Jun 85 03:27:11 GMT

> Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ..  What about the
> never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise

The Enterprise had starbases with fresh supplies of Redshirts to
serve as monster chow.  Space 1999 had NO new people coming in,
excepting Maya, and no supplies.

------------------------------

From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 17 Jun 85 19:15:09 GMT

pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes:
>I was a long-term fan of previous Gerry Anderson series like
>Supercar, Fireball XL5, Thunderbirds and Stingray and it always
>struck me at the time what an achievement it was to make puppets
>look and act like humans.

Has anyone ever noticed that the puppets in the Captain Scarlet
series actually LOOK like the actors that did their voices?  The
puppet character in Captain Scarlet that Ed Bishop did the
voice-over for, has Ed Bishop's face!

I LOVE GA PUPPET SHOWS!
Lord Frith
UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root
ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO

------------------------------

From: hcrvax!jims@topaz.arpa (Jim Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Sequels, The Lord of the Rings, Random Information
Date: 14 Jun 85 13:47:31 GMT

> Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that Lord
> of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to listen to
> anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a nice
> story).

Actually, TLotR is not a sequel.  When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he
intended it as a children's story, and its success caught him
off-guard.  When his publishers asked him for a sequel, he refused,
and offered them a couple of other stories, including, I believe,
the Silmarillion (I know, I spelled it wrong).  But, the publishers
wanted something to follow the hobbit, and so...Tolkien started on
TLotR.

Unfortunately, The Hobbit was not suited for a sequel.  The original
version had a Bilbo being given the ring by gollum, for winning the
riddle game.  In order to establish a link between The Hobbit and
TLotR, Tolkien had to change later versions of The Hobbit to have
Bilbo steal the ring, setting up the 'We Hates Baggins, Forever'
sub-plot.  It was at this point that Tolkien made the ring, the ONE
ring.  Before it was just a magical ring.  By making it the ONE
ring, the bond between The Hobbit and TLotR was firmly established.

So, to say the TLotR is a sequel to The Hobbit is not quite true, it
depends on how you look at it.

Jim Sullivan (I stole the above from an essay I did 8 months ago for
              an University of Waterloo english course, Forms of
              Fantasy, Engl 208A i Believe )

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 17 June 1985, 20:31-EDT
From: James M. Turner <jmturn at LMI-CAPRICORN>
Subject: SFL Party

Ah June, when thoughts of SF-Lovers turn to Worldcon. Due to the
remoteness of Aussiecon (Melbourne), this year's SFL Party will take
place at Lone Star Con (the NaSFiC), though any rich fans going to
Australia are welcome to run a party there.

We need help in planning the party. If you want to contribute food,
transportation to a package store, funds, or (ghu forbid) a room,
you want to be on the SFL-PARTY mailing list. To get on this list,
send your net address to SFL-PARTY@MIT-MC. You should also be on the
list if you are planning to come to the party, so you can find out
what day and time the party will be.

In your letter, please state any preference for day or time you
might have, so we can get a feel for when people want the party to
be.
                                        James

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 Jun 85 1056-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jun 85 1056-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #222
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Jun 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 222

Today's Topics:

              Books - Donaldson & Heinlein & Tolkien &
                      Celtic Myths,
              Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - The Problems With SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: luke!steven@topaz.arpa (Steven List)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 15 Jun 85 23:50:48 GMT

>From: Chris Yoder <engvax!CHRIS@cit-vax>
>     How does one express superlatives enough for the Chronicles of
>Thomas Covenant? There is so much going on in these books that it
>amazes me every time that I reread the series. Everything that
>Chris Andersen says about the books I agree with.  As creative
>fantasy it's a work of art in my own (not so) humble opinion.
>
>     Thomas Covenant is a scuzwad, a jerk, an *sshole, and very,
>very real.  I agree that he's not so much an anti-hero as a wimp
>who refuses to fight.  If you don't hate him w/i the first 50
>pages, you haven't been reading.

The biggest problem I have with Donaldson's dual trilogy (other than
the depressing, frustrating, aggravating nature of the main
character) is his use of language.  I don't object to being forced
to look up an occasional new word or twenty.  But GIVE ME A BREAK.
Donaldson seems to be incapable of writing two pages without
introducing a word that nobody I know has ever heard of!  I have
discussed his works with several friends over the past few years.
Many of us have indeed read them all the way through.  And all feel
the same way about the words.

I haven't yet figured out why I read all six.  I do know why I
bought all three of the second trilogy: I bought an autographed
edition of the first and wanted to complete the set.  Reading them
was more along the lines of fulfilling a commitment than pleasure.
I just had to do it and get it over with.  The odds are great that I
will never buy another book by Donaldson again.

Steven List @ Benetics Corporation  (415) 940-6300
{cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!steven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 16:02:12 CST
From: Doug Monk <bro@rice.ARPA>
Subject: JOB : ACOJ

Having just finished my SFBC copy of _Job_:_a_Comedy_of_Justice_ by
Heinlein, I thought I might point out something interesting I noted.
As I was reading along, I noticed that the phrase "stranger in a
strange land" appeared in a paragraph.  It was used correctly in
context but also happens to be the title of another of RAH's books.
I was amused.  Much later that same day, it happened again : I found
"time enough for love" so skillfully entwined in character and
context that I was laughing with delight for a good two minutes.

Not having had time to reread the book yet with great care, I find
myself wondering how many other times this happens in the book, and
with which titles ?  ( I have intentionally left out the page
numbers of the two I found in case others want to discover them for
themselves.  Send mail to me if you want the references. Send mail
to me and/or the net if you find more ).

Doug Monk <bro@rice.arpa>

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Sequels
Date: 18 Jun 85 09:34:14 GMT

>> Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that
>> Lord of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to
>> listen to anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a
>> nice story).
>
>"The Lord of the Rings" isn't a sequel to "The Hobbit."  Not
>really, anyway.  Kind of like chapter two isn't really a sequel to
>chapter one, nor is chapter one really a sequel to the preface.  Go
>back and re-read your Tolkien, if you do not understand.

Have you ever read Tolkien's Biography.  It says there that Tolkien
wrote LOTR on the request of the publisher who wanted more stories
about hobbits.  Tolkien never intended LOTR to be the premiere work
on Middle-Earth. That honor was to go to The Silmarillian.

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 85 10:35:05 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: "The Black Cauldron" and Celtic myth retellings

Everybody point at Peter Trei and say "Booo!"

Peter, OF COURSE Disney's "The Black Cauldron" is based on the Lloyd
Alexander works.  It's been stated plainly, in SF-LOVERS and
elsewhere.

What's worse, though, is that you don't seem to know that
Alexander's works are, in turn, based on "The Mabinogion" itself.
In fact, "The Black Cauldron" (film or book) uses "Branwen Daughter
of Llyr" as its original source.

As far as "late 20th century ethics and mores being espoused by Dark
Age men and women" goes, I really don't see the problem.  Does
reading "The Mabinogion" put your teeth on edge, too?  After all, it
has Christian ethics and mores being espoused by pre-Christian men
and women.  Storytellers always include motivations with which their
audiences can identify - it's a tradition - might even say an oral
tradition :-).  Just because Marion Zimmer Bradley is so
heavy-handed about it is no reason to fault the approach.

Loosen up.  This is fiction, not history, we're talking about.  Why
bother reading a retelling if not to get a modern interpretation?

May I assume that you don't like Evangeline Walton?  If so, too bad.
Someone as interested in Celtic mythology as you seem to be from
your posting should read Lloyd Alexander's books, but if modern
motivations (and other "glosses", if you must) bother you, I can
only sigh and shake my head.

How about Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" series?  Modern
applications of Celtic/Arthurian myth; at least here the action is
set in the 20th century, so there should be no problem with
anachronistic ethics.

Oh, what the Annwn, toss in Madeleine L'Engle's "A Swiftly Tilting
Planet", too.  Only tangential to Celtic myth, and not as good as
her "A Wrinkle in Time", but...

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 13:01:39 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 and infinite eagles

Ian Moor (icdoc!iwm@topaz.arpa) writes:
> Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ...  What about the
> never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise (the
> ones at the tail end of the group that got grabbed zapped or
> whatever..

Situations were a little different.  Viewers could easily assume
that between Star Trek episodes the Enterprise would stop off at
Star Fleet Headquarters and pick up replacement personnel for all
the security officers that got killed off.  They could also get
things repaired that way.

Space 1999 had nothing similar.  They were essentially marooned in
space.  What're they gonna do, stop off at Uncle Xkgrmoqphdal's
trading post and exchange good looks for new eagles?  ST had tons of
resources at its disposal.  The people of Moonbase Alpha only had
what they started with and whatever they could scavenge along the
way.

Personally, I think that the first season of Space 1999 wasn't bad.
I would certainly go out of my way to see those episodes again.
They were strange enough to be thought provoking, something that is
lacking in most TV today.  The second season wasn't nearly as good.
They lost their best actor; they exchanged good sets for mediocre
ones; they added the shapechanger, which got them out of every
situation; and they toned down the scripts---the series lost its
ability to force me to think for myself.

                   William LeFebvre
                   Department of Computer Science
                   Rice University
                   <phil@Rice.arpa>
                   or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

From: cstvax!bobg@topaz.arpa (Bob Gray ERCC)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it (slight SPOILER)
Date: 22 Jun 85 06:36:15 GMT

thornton@westo.UUCP (znac468) writes:
>I assumed a terminal velocity of 0.1c ,mainly because if the moon
>went faster than 0.15c then an Eagle would never catch it.

Spoiler warning....

There is a book (by E.C. TUBB, I think his name was, I can't
remember the title) Which tells a story made up of two episodes from
the series and a story claimed to be a possible "Final episode".
This was writen after the series had ended and explains what
actually happened in the explosion.

>it was propelled into a 'time warp' and emerged in an area of space
>where the stars were packed much more tightly together (!).

As I remember the moon was squeezed by the explosion and forced into
a strange fourth-dimensional orbit. This is how it got out of the
solar system so fast.  The moon eventually ends up back in it's
original (present) orbit with a convenient explanation for all the
large number of planets they encountered. A bit far-fetched but not
as silly as the shape changing alien. ( I liked the first series
best too).  Anyone out there read the book and/or remember it's
title?

Bob Gray.
ERCC.

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VI
Date: 14 Jun 85 17:45:21 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
                 PART VI: The Short Story Mentality
                          by Davis Tucker

It's a safe bet to say that for many people, one of the most
delightful things about reading science fiction is the wealth of
short stories and various other works of less than novel length.
It's also a safe bet that no other form of literature (to be
dignified about it) has such an exhaustive taxonomy of forms - from
novelette to novella to novel to short story to short-short story to
tetralogy and on and on. And what the difference is between a
novelette and a novella nobody knows, and I suspect nobody cares.
But what is often apparent in the field of science fiction is that
the short story form has been used beyond its capabilities and its
limitations, and that there are many novels that in structure and
content are little more than expensive (and often long-winded) short
stories.

Because of their length or lack of it, short stories by necessity
must cast off some of the requisite characteristics of novels -
extensive description, multiple plot lines, detailed
characterization, character development, coherent structure,
in-depth symbolism, etc. It is perhaps more correct to say that
these novel characteristics are *allowed* to be cast off or cut
short in the interests of space - there are some short stories which
can accomplish most of these things, although character development
usually takes more than 10,000 words. What we usually expect out of
a short story is a few well-developed characters (sometimes only
one), a strong plot that doesn't contain too many convolutions, and
sufficient character motivation to make it all believable. Logical
consistency and imaginative sweep are also necessary for science
fiction short stories. Mood and environment must be sketched, and
well-done enough so that the reader can at least smell the steak
without tasting it, as he or she would reading a novel.

To make a lame comparison with art, a novel is a painting - say
Rembrandt's "Night Watch". A short story is a pencil sketch, a
goache, a line drawing like Picasso's "Femme" (which, since it
consists of 3 line elements, is probably equivalent to a
short-short). One is not inherently "better" than the other, nor any
more or less "art". They are different forms, and while a painting
usually requires more time and effort than a quick sketch, that is
no indication of quality or genius. But sketches conform to
different rules and accomplish the aims of art in different ways
than paintings.  Or to turn to the stage, we accept that Albee's
one-act plays such as "Zoo Story" are fundamentally different in
sweep and scope and structure than Shakespeare, and it is as
fundamentally incorrect to make a 4-hour one-act play (with all of
the characteristics of one-act plays) as it is to make a 30-minute
five-act play. If the constraints of time and space which
differentiate the genres of various art forms were not important,
this would not be the case. It is how well a practitioner of an art
or a craft deals within these restraints that is at issue.

In science fiction we often find novels which, when shorn of fat and
fluff, turn out to be short stories. One idea may make an acceptable
short story, but it rarely suffices for a novel. Sometimes these
novels in short's clothing are disguised by episodic plot lines (the
"continuous cliffhanger" so beloved by space opera) or verbose
description or various other red herrings. One favorite red herring
is the Totally Unnecessary Subplot, which we all know well - that
feeling you get of "why in the world is this *in* here?" In general,
many science fiction writers indulge in lengthening out short
stories - just think of the number of times that a popular short
story has been reworked into a novel, and how it was done. Usually
not well, and rarely if ever does it have anything more to offer
than its original version.  And even when this isn't the case, many
science fiction novels have that incompleteness, that sketchiness,
that singularity that characterizes short stories. Characters are
usually drawn out well, but their personal development through the
novel is often skimpy. In the course of one hundred thousand words,
people should change and grow and be impacted by their plot. I won't
even go into the sorry state of affairs as regards female
characters, except to say that someday, someday by God, male science
fiction writers are going to find out that World War II and the
Sixties and the Sexual Revolution and the Women's Movement really
*did* happen and they really *do* have relevancy to today's readers.
I mean, a lot of these novels don't even have a single female
character of *any* kind in them.

And then of course, there is the deus ex machina. That beloved
ending of science fiction, more used than anything. In mainstream
fiction, it's tough to get away with that kind of ending (we don't
believe in gods falling out of the sky anymore... sigh). Where the
writer paints himself into the proverbial corner and voila! Here
comes the zygomatic thundercruncher's unknown power in all its
awesome majesty, which of course the villain didn't know anything
about, since we all know that a villain couldn't see a deus ex
machina if it came up and bit him, even when it's been telegraphed
in screaming semaphore for fifty pages. It's either that, or write a
sequel.  Unfortunately Dudley Doright and Snidely Whiplash belong on
TV, not in print.  It's a cheap ending, and no matter how good a
book is, if it doesn't have a correct ending, it's no good.
Important characters being raised from the dead and all sorts of
magical powers being unleashed from out of nowhere at precisely the
right instant (the last ten pages) don't strain credibility, they
give it a multiple hernia. In a short story, these kind of endings
can be acceptable, sometimes even well-done. Many people like the
"surprise ending" feel to a deus ex machina. But it has no place in
a novel - the writer has enough time to build up to a suitable
ending that fits within the framework of the rest of the book, and
there's no reason why he has to cheat when he's got 200 or 500 pages
with which to work. It's amazing that with all the freedom afforded
science fiction that this hackneyed ending that's about 2500 years
old is so over used.

Short story methods are specific to short stories, in the sense that
they do not violate some basic rules. Novel methods are specific to
novels.  It is difficult to imagine "Moby Dick" in 20,000 words
(though many English 101 students may dream of this), and it's
hilarious to picture "The Ransom Of Red Chief" weighing in at 1,000
pages. But they're both good for what they are, and they both use
their respective modes of operation correctly, and they both
succeed. It would be nice to see more science fiction authors of
novels recognize this, and stop trying to stretch a 20-page story
into 200, please. It's an affront to both the short story that could
have been and the novel that is.

Well, that's just one man's opinion. Tune in next week to "THE
PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VII: Thematic Drought".

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jun 85 1115-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #223
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 19 Jun 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 223

Today's Topics:

                Books - Ellison & Herbert & Wells &
                        Alternate History Bibliography &
                        Return to Oz & Carcinoma angels,
                Films - Rocky Horror,
                Television - Banned Shows (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - The Purpose of Fiction &
                        Literary Sterility

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anwar!rob@topaz.arpa (Robert R Stegmann)
Subject: Berserker and Terminator
Date: 18 Jun 85 18:57:39 GMT

It seems to me that a concept central to TERMINATOR was that of a
robot assassin capable of passing for a human.  In addition, the
robot and human antagonists pursued each other using time travel.
Both of these ideas have been employed together in Fred Saberhagen's
Berserker stories, which I believe antedate TERMINATOR.  I am unsure
as to whether they antedate Ellison's work.  Has Ellison ripped off
Saberhagen or vice versa?  Have the people responsible for
TERMINATOR ripped off Saberhagen?

The scene in TERMINATOR showing a flashback to the future in which a
terminator robot infiltrates a human enclave and begins to shoot up
the place very strongly brought to mind the Berserker stories.

To my mind, the only plausible justification for Ellison's victory
is the evidence that the story was plagiarized from scripts he
submitted and which were rejected.

rob
{allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!hhb!rob

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Series and sequels in SF and Fantasy
Date: 18 Jun 85 03:17:41 GMT

marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>One series, however, seems to have gone beyond the limits of good
>taste.  I am a lover of Herbert's Dune since I first read it.  The
>concept lost its flavor with the second of the books, and I
>mercilessly forced myself to read God Emperor. I'm not going to
>bother with any more Dune books.  Frank Herbert has some fine and
>interesting publications that are totally unrelated to the series.
>I suggest White Plague as an interesting alternative.

I would suggest any other books by Frank Herbert except the 'Dune'
series. I find his other works so much in contrast to 'Dune' & Co.
that it amazed me it was the same author. In particular, I recommend
the Con-Sentiency stories, about BuSab, the Bureau of Sabotage.('The
Tactful Saboteur' - short,from 'The Worlds of Frank Herbert',
'Whipping Star' - novel, and 'The Dosadi Experiment' also a novel.)
Of these, The Dosadi Experiment is the best, and I put it as one of
my top ten books ever. Frank writes good stuff.

                                R. Ramsay

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: SCIENCE FICTION OF H. G. WELLS
Date: 18 Jun 85 16:07:54 GMT

                 H. G. Wells and Frank McConnell's
                 THE SCIENCE FICTION OF H. G. WELLS
                   Oxford University Press, 1981
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     One of my earliest memories was going to see the film WAR OF
THE WORLDS.  I was not yet three years old and my parents, who
usually hate science fiction, for some reason went to see it.  I
hated it.  And we sat through it twice.  By the time I was six, I
would have sold both my parents into slavery to see the film again.
I was bitten by science fiction early and hard.  And the paragon of
science fiction writers had to be H. G. Wells, I thought.

     Finding in the library the Dover book SEVEN SCIENCE FICTION
NOVELS BY H. G. WELLS was a high point of my youth.  I remember how
I originally acquired each of the fives "Classics Illustrated" comic
books based on his science fiction books.  When I was growing up,
Wells was "Mr. Science Fiction" for me.

     Of course, now I am somewhat more widely read and can put Wells
into a perspective.  In perspective, Wells is merely the best and
most creative science fiction writer who ever lived.  There are very
few current types of science fiction story that Wells did not write
and the majority of those he invented.  Time travel, alien invasion,
post-holocaust, space travel--they all descended from stories and
novels by Wells.  His shorter stories include the invention of the
modern tank and the "atomic bomb" (Wells coined the phrase "atomic
bomb" in 1914 and gave a surprisingly accurate appraisal of its use
in war, particularly considering that he was writing about it thirty
years before its development).  Another early story describes a
London described by terrorists with biological warfare.  Most SF
authors predicting the future only extrapolate the present without
breakthroughs.  Some actually put in breakthroughs but are way off
base about what the breakthroughs will be.  Wells predicted a
surprising number of the real breakthroughs.

     That brings me to THE SCIENCE FICTION OF H. G. WELLS by Frank
McConnell.  McConnell is an Associate Professor of English at
Northwestern, and he approaches Wells as an Associate Professor of
English rather than as a science fiction fan.  None of the pleasure
of reading Wells comes across.  He does mention, dryly and in
passing, that certain novels were written during the period when
Wells was "a great storyteller," and McConnell speculates that after
that period Wells decided that he no longer wanted to be a great
storyteller, but he never talks about what made a Wells story great.
Instead of that, he gives us dry-as-dust speculations of how Wells
may have been influenced by Darwin's theories and goes into long
digressions about the history of Social Darwinism.

     In fact, much of the matter of McConnell's book reminds me of
my own writing when I was in high school and wanted to make a small
idea fill an assigned number of pages.

     He says things like INVISIBLE MAN presaged politics of the 20th
Century in that Griffin is a terrorist who is damaged by his own
tactics.  Even assuming the point is true about terrorism, which it
probably isn't, it is not an idea that is particularly worth
considering.  Wells knew nothing about 20th Century terrorists when
he wrote the book, and McConnell's whole point is contrived.

     Also, McConnell talks about the way the giants' nursery in FOOD
OF THE GODS had brightly colored tiles the children could
re-arrange.  "The child psychology of Jean Piaget and the inspired
practice of the Montessori schools... have both borne out the wisdom
of Wells's ideas about the early training of children in creative
play."  Time and again, McConnell seems to be missing the essential
points of the Wells story, but he will waste a half-page on what a
good way these giant children were raised.

     Earlier in his biographical chapter, he digresses to explain
the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Godel's Proof.  He botches
both but goes on for pages on their implications.  (Actually, he is
not alone in this.  It is amazing how many people can correctly
state neither the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle nor the meaning
of Godel's proof, but can wax eloquent on their philosophical
implications--implications that are not borne out by Heisenberg or
Godel at all. ) McConnell says that Godel was saying "mathematics
had the structure not of a 'real' world but of an elegant fiction."
To me that shows a complete mis-understanding of the implications of
Godel's proof, yet he fills pages explaining it to his reader.

     In another place McConnell does a metric analysis of the
sentences in a paragraph of INVISIBLE MAN.  I could go on and on
with a list of how what he says may vaguely concern Wells, but how
he totally misses essential points.  McConnell's only really
interesting sections about Wells are facts he gleaned from a
biography of the author.  To all appearances, that is the book I
should have read.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Alternate History Bibliography
Date: 18 Jun 85 17:59:21 GMT

In response to several requests:

The article on alternate histories I mentioned was "What If Hitler
Got the Bomb?: World War Two in Alternate History SF Stories" by
Mark M. Keeler.  He didn't include the entire bibliography, just
those relating to WWII.

For further information, you can probably contact him through NESFA:
                        Mark M. Keller
                        c/o NESFA
                        Box G, MIT Branch Station
                        Cambridge, MA 02139

And, no, I won't type in the WWII list--but maybe we can convince
him to publish the whole thing in a book!
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Tue 18 Jun 85 19:08:41-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Aux armes, Citoyens!

Lovers of SF

Yesterday in a bookstore I picked up a book

        Return to Oz
        a novel by
        Joan D Vinge

based on a movie from Disney studios.  Now the world knows that the
marvelous Oz books were written by L Frank Baum, may his name be
honoured for ever.  This variant either dropped out of a parallel
universe or is a condensation of a couple of those books, especially
The Land of Oz (Copyright MCMIV by L Frank Baum. All Rights
Reserved).

An author lives in his books.  To deprive an author, however long
out of copyright, of the acknowledgement that is his due is a foul
crime.  I expect nothing better of 'Disney Studios', but Vinge is an
author with works of her own, who surely has no cause to do such a
thing.

Friends, was this deed truly done with her knowledge and consent?
Is there any mitigating fact I'm unaware of?

Meanwhile, let all who care about courtesy (at least) to authors
living and dead BOYCOTT THIS BOOK.  May those who have perpetrated
this injustice be hated and despised by all intellectual beings,
both men and angels, throughout eternity!

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 22:53:59 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels

From Doug Alan:
> For some reason the title "Carcinoma Angel" has been floating
> around in my head ... I'm sure it's the title for an SF story I
> read ...

It is indeed!  It's the last story in "Dangerous Visions" (*edited*
by Harlan Ellison, and one of the best SF anthologies ever, for
those who haven't read it...).  The story itself is by Norman
Spinrad, and is about a man, successful at all endeavours, who
contracts cancer and decides to cure it by force of will, through
decidedly unorthodox means.  The "Carcinoma Angels" are
manifestations of his cancer cells as motorcycle-gang members (I
*said* his means were unorthodox!).

Read the story.  Hell, read the whole book!  And then read "Again,
Dangerous Visions", too!  (When will "The Last ..." be out?  I heard
it would be soon.)
                                --Peter Alfke  [jpa144@cit-vax]
(PS: I'm soon to be alfke.pasa@xerox)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 19 Jun 1985 08:05:28-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: RHPS, Magenta, and UK video tapes

Magenta a dud??????  COME ON NOW!!!!! Give me a break, will you?!
and I suppose that Dr. Scott had nothing to do with the plot
what-so-ever? and Rocky was only there to show off his muscles?

BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be played
on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK machine to
copy the UK video to US tape. If someone in UK has a US machine, I
would be glad to send them a tape to get a copy.

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 16:22:19 CST
From: Doug Monk <bro@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry.

>  Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the U.S.?
>I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas & four
>were banned in Britain, the reason being violence.

   Its news to me. I've seen all the episodes many times and have
lived in Houston, Texas all my life.  Who claims to have "banned"
them ?  One of those self-righteous little buttinski groups who know
more than us about what is good for us ?  If so, I never even heard
about it so they couldn't have had much impact.  If it was a group
trying to protect children from excessive violence, I must point out
to that group that Star Trek was never intended for children but
adults.

> The reasons given for the banning in Texas indicate that some of
>the British shows may run in to similar problems. Notably THE
>PYRAMIDS OF MARS story from DR WHO dealing with Egyptian Gods & THE
>TROUBLESOME SPIRIT & LAMBDA FACTOR episodes of 1999 dealing with
>ghosts and strange powers. Has this happened?

   No problems that I know of.  I've seen PYRAMIDS OF MARS twice (
unless I'm confusing it with another story about Egyptian Gods ) and
watched part of TROUBLESOME SPIRIT. ( Didn't finish it or watch
LAMBDA FACTOR 'cause I never cared much for 1999. )

   As with ST, I never heard of any attempts at banning these
episodes.  The TV stations showing them have in general been
applauded for filling the vast SF void on the tube.

   As for banning in general, the only thing I can recall lately has
been some annual national Parent-Teacher Association event in which
they deplore the violence inherent in much TV programming and cite
certain programs for special problems.  Not really "banning", but
censuring the producers of such shows, not censoring the shows
themselves.

Doug Monk <bro@rice.arpa>

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: Banned episodes
Date: 18 Jun 85 21:06:20 GMT

> Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the U.S.?
> I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas & four
> were banned in Britain, the reason being violence.

The original CBS late-night showing of UFO omitted the episode
Timelash, because Commander Straker and Col. Lake were shown
injecting themselves with stimulents to fight the aliens who had
slowed time over the studio and stopped everyone else in SHADO
headquarters.  This was a network decision, the episode was shown
later in syndication to local stations.  (Source: article on UFO in
Starlog #5)
                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 85 11:56:00 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: the purpose of fiction

>I think that the one and only, sole reason for fiction's existence
>is to bring about that immersion in the shared dream.

I disagree strongly with this statement.  I enjoy novels which work
on many other levels, and I hope others do, too.  Mr. Martin spoke
of a concensus among many of the viewpoints appearing in this forum.
I wonder if the other participants accept this characterization as
part of that consensus?  I will not respond in detail to the
remainder of Mr. Martin's response, but will simply say that I do
not agree with him on most points he raised.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 10:09:26 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: literary sterility

Bill Ingogly writes
>Sorry, Charlie's definition of literary sterility is close to the
>standard one. From Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College
>Edition:
>   ... 3. lacking in interest or vitality; not stimulating or
>        effective [a sterile style] ...

Only if you accept his premise that the only way in which a work of
fiction can be interesting, vital, stimulating, or effective is if
it wraps its reader up in its own world, a premise I do not accept.
Do you?
                        Peter Reiher

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 85 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #224
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 20 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 224

Today's Topics:

               Books - Donaldson & Palmer & Zelazny &
                       Carcinoma Angels (2 msgs),
               Films - Rocky Horror,
               Television - Space: 1999,
               Miscellaneous - 20th Century Men in Stories &
                       Telling the Plot (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 19 Jun 85 16:36:53 GMT

I mentioned this in a posting a number of months ago.  Yes, do read
all 6 Thomas Covenant books!  By the end of the first book (and
maybe still later) you might find that you really dislike Thomas
Covenant.  He is a pain to be around!  But hang in there and read
the second book.  You'll get hooked.  I could read Donaldson's words
forever.  Yes, he is verbose.  But I really think his writing is
quite lovely and worth the wading.  The characters are unique and
wonderful and very different from the standard sword and sorcery
fantasies (which I also like, by the way).

I have read critiques stating that the second trilogy wasn't as good
as the first, it was too long, etc.  All I know is that after I
finished each book I could not wait to get my hands on the next.
And, unlike some series, the final book does leave you satisfied.

The books, by the way, are: LORD FOUL'S BANE, THE ILLEARTH WAR, THE
POWER THAT PRESERVES, THE WOUNDED LAND, THE ONE TREE, and WHITE GOLD
WIELDER.

-Fred

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: EMERGENCE by David Palmer
Date: 19 Jun 85 22:49:23 GMT

                     EMERGENCE by David Palmer
                            Bantam, 1984
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This book suffers from the "levitation method" of
writing--whatever corner you write your character into, he or she
will turn out to have just the right abilities to get out of it.
(If the situation is bad enough, the character will turn out to be
able to levitate over the obstacle.)  Well, Palmer does make some
attempt to rationalize his main character's set of abilities.  He
fails.  While I kept reading and was indeed interested in finding
out what was going to happen next, the moment I began to think, even
a little, about the situations that Palmer was setting up and
Candy's ability to get out of them, I realized what a patently
absurd book it is.

     Candy is a superman (superwoman?)--really.  The product of some
sort of genetic mutation caused by the 1918 influenza epidemic, she
can do everything, even at the tender age of eleven.  She is an
expert at karate, can perform basic surgery, can learn to fly an
airplane by herself, etc., etc.  R-i-g-h-t!  The rest of the
characters are not much better (in some cases, they're worse).

     Portions of the novel were previously published as short
stories.  It shows--the second section repeats a lot of information
already given in the first, as if Palmer couldn't be bothered to do
any re-writing on the parts that had already been published.  And on
top of everything, the book doesn't end neatly, but leaves some
loose ends just perfect for--you guessed it--a sequel!  I can't
recommend this book.  While it was passable enough while I was
reading it, it left me ultimately unsatisfied.  If this is all it
takes to be a Hugo nominee, it must have been a very weak year last
year.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Zelazny
Date: 20 Jun 85 00:08:13 GMT

        I have had the fortune of rooming with an avid reader of sf
& fantasy.  Having read all of zelazny's works he steered me away
from the bad ones.  I quote, "when zelazny writes something good,
it's great, but when it's bad, it is really bad."

> Oh my LORD Doorways was very light...
>               -- Joe Kalash

What do you mean by light?  While I don't expect anybody to merely
accept my friend's review as this being his favorite sf by zelazny-
it's light but fast moving, interesting- really, really smooth.
even though i'm really only a fantasy reader i got into it (a
little).

> Amber was "awfully light and puffy and beneath him
>                -- reg

Are you all right?!  Amber was mind shattering.  When I heard he'd
contracted to write another group I nearly went into shock because
he really warps your senses.  I took off a day and a half at the end
of the series.  It's impossible to put down!  In fact, how can you
complain about the series that reaches out and physically grabs you
from the first paragraph?  The character knows as little as the
reader so you can get into it right away without having to waste
time with background etc.  I highly recommend this series and call
for all fans to flame the above review.  "light and fluffy", indeed!

        Jack of Shadows is definitely included in his masterpieces.
A new edition paperback has been re-released within the last few
months.

        I would welcome discussion regarding Dilvish, one of my
favorites.  I'm disappointed that the best he wrote was for Lin
Carter's flashing swords series.  I hope to write him and tell him
that his novel's ending was a cop out and that we want a lot more.
Of course, this is really for fantasy fans.

                Moshe Eliovson
                mte @ busch

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels
Date: 18 Jun 85 02:33:16 GMT

"Carcinoma Angels", by Norman Spinrad, was first published in the
original "Dangerous Visions" anthology edited by Harlan Ellison.
DV, c 1967, and Judith Merril's anthology "England Swings SF", c
1968, define the "new wave" in sf, later known as "speculative
fiction".

Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@topaz.arpa (I.P.Gordon)
Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angel
Date: 20 Jun 85 12:00:48 GMT

One usage of the name 'Carcinoma Angel(s)' that I have come across
is for a very silly game on computers.  You have parachuted down
onto Carcinoma Island which is square, about 15x15, having a number
of infinitely deep potholes, down which it is fatal to fall, and a
number of Carcinoma Angels, who keep walking towards you. If a C.A.
touches you, you die. The idea is to lure them all down the
potholes.

I.Gordon

------------------------------

Date: Wed 19 Jun 85 23:57:54-PDT
From: Mark Crispin <Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: RHPS videotape

     Great Britain uses the PAL television standard, which is not
compatible with the USA's NTSC standard.  NTSC (a.k.a. "Never Twice
Same Color" due to its color instability) is the oldest by many
years; the Europeans had a chance to learn from our mistakes.  The
French invented something called SECAM, and the West Germans
invented PAL.  PAL is the most widely used standard in the world,
and is considered by many to be the best.

     There is no compatibility between NTSC and PAL.  PAL has
greater resolution and shows 50 half-frames/second, while NTSC shows
60 half- frames/second.  Also, PAL videotapes operate at different
speeds.

     A company named Instant Replay in Florida modifies NTSC VHS
format (ugh!) VCR's to have a "PAL" switch which if set runs the
tape at PAL speed and kludges up the video signal so it will play on
an NTSC TV or monitor.  The signal is not as good as a vanilla PAL
or NTSC signal, nor can it be copied to another VCR, but the results
are still viewable.  So if you're really desperate for a videotape
of RHPS and can't wait the years(!) that CBS/Fox says it will be
before an American release, you can get a British tape and an
Instant Replay VCR (currently around $800) and do the Time-Warp
again.

Mark

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 19 Jun 85 11:11:28 GMT

        Strange as it seems, there were very few bug eyed monsters
in the first season. The only non humanoid alien was the 'spider'
from DRAGONS DOMAIN. It was the dreaded second season which had the
bug eyed monsters. One monster (from BETA CLOUD, SPACE WARP & MATTER
OF BALANCE) was used a lot with different hair lengths so as you
wouldn't notice. If you had opted to see the few episodes where bug
eyed monsters were used you would get this impression. This seems to
have more to do with the arrival of Freddie Frieberger than the
character of the show.
        One good bug eyed monster can be forgiven. Maya provided the
potential to produce hundreds.
        Maya's shape changeing ability is not original. Captain
Garth, from STAR TREK's WHOM GODS DESTROY had a similar ability
limited to humanoid forms. He could change into an alien (SPOCK) and
must have physically changed to assume the voice. Here the ability
was called 'CELLULAR REMETAMORPHOSIS'. If one show can get away with
that, why did Maya come in for so much stick?
        Does anyone out there look out for little continuity errors?
I spotted several in 1999. Koenig's space suit collar in BREAKAWAY
changes from smooth to ringed before he crashes over beacon Delta
for instance, and Carter's visor falls open in SPACE WARP!

Andy T.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 14 Jun 85 22:37:36-EDT
From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Twentieth Century Men...

Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa writes:
>Why, do you suppose, did it become standard to somehow transport a
>man of our times into the plot?  Burroughs got John Carter to Mars
>somewhere in the first few pages.  Stephen Donaldson did more or
>less the same.  In fact, this has been recycled by everyone from
>Lin Carter ("The Green Star",etc.) to Brian Daley ("The
>Starfollowers of Coramonde",1979). Not to mention one of A.E.Van
>Vogt's stronger works, "The Book of Ptath" (1943).

     I could be wrong, but there seems to me to be a fairly simple
answer to this valid query.  The reason that so many authors now and
in the past have used the man-of-the- present device is so that it
will be easier for the reader to identify with him/her.
     Take Donaldson's _Lord_Foul's_Bane_ (of which I am also an avid
fan, having read the whole series at least seven times...). It is a
lot easier for us to relate to the world Covenant comes from,
because it is ours. We see the common everyday experiences of the
twentieth cetury world. This lets us be drawn further into the book
than if Covenant lived, say, in the year 3000 or so... We don't KNOW
what society will be like then, so we can't fully allow the
perception of "Gee...that's really cruel...but come to think of it,
there really ARE those things out there..." in that world.
     Also, when the twentieth-century person uses any kind of
idiomatic expression, we can generally understand it a lot better
than the far-future- types (take the Buck Rogers TV series as an
example). Since the protagonist DOES come from our time, we also
get the feeling that "ge, this could really happen" a lot more
intensely (or rather, more PERSONALLY) than if he/she came from a
completely different society.

(There's more, but I haven't thought of it yet...)

Glen Daniels
(ARPA:GDaniels%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA)
(CHAOS:GDaniels@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 18 Jun 1985 08:58:31-PDT
From: moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: The concept of spoilers

>> "It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least
>> partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche.
>
>Well, let me re-phrase myself--if I tell you the plot, I will ruin
>the enjoyment you'll get from watching it unfold yourself.
>Watching the "Alice" chess game develop is more fun than having
>someone explain it all to you first, at least for me.

(And, by the other Leeper):

>Sure, a second reading can be more fun than the first, so what?
>Does that make it justified for the reviewer diminishing the
>pleasure on the first reading?  The second reading is more
>pleasurable not because the reader knows the plot in advance,
>usually, but because the reader sees more in the story.

To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who
lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone
manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it.  Otherwise the
nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen
seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out of
it.  I agree with the above comment about why the second reading is
more enjoyable than the first, but would say that the reason I see
more in the story is because the plot cannot surprise me.  I don't
understand the point about watching the chess game develop the first
time being more enjoyable than having someone explain it to you
first. In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have
the aliens landing and blowing away every character you know about so
far.  I grant you that this is unlikely in the Alice stories, but it
is very likely in other books, and the tension of watching (waiting)
for that almost ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time
through.

For example, I just finished "To Reign In Hell".  Excellent job,
SKZB.  But the instant that I finished the last page, I flipped back
and started with the first page, to re-read the entire book so I
could *ENJOY* it this time.  I do this with almost every book I read
(except the ones that I didn't like for other reasons (such as
boredom)).

All of this applies equally to movies/plays/television/short
stories/etc.

Obviously not everyone agrees with this, otherwise there would not
be the plethora of *** SPOILER *** warnings. Could someone who
doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel the way you do?
Thanks.
                        Ken Moreau

------------------------------

Date: Tue 18 Jun 85 13:06:50-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Telling the Plot

> From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
> May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in
> Wonderland but I doubt if we think that ruins the book.  Do you
> people REALLY think that rereading a book can never possibly be as
> much fun as reading it the first time, because the book is --
> horrors! -- "at least partially ruined"? .... Ah well, the same
> stupid attitude manifests itself in the popular use of the term
> "spoiler."  *Grumph* again.

There was a recent poll among net.puzzle and (amazingly enough) most
people thought that solutions to puzzles should be marked with the
term "SPOILER", presumably under the impression that knowing the
answer somehow spoils the puzzle!

A good story needs to unfold and there's a certain magic in that.
Rarely will you get as much out of a book by reading all the
sentences backwards or starting in the middle (with the notable
exception of /Finnegan's Wake/).  When I read a book a second time,
I don't expect the same magic, but rather I'm looking for the
subtleties I may have missed the first time.  There is nothing quite
like being halfway through a mystery and having someone say "Oh yes,
isn't that the one where the pregnant ballerina is the murderer?"

Ah, it is so nice to get back to serious discussions after the
recent froth about "The Problems with SF Today."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 85 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #225
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 20 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 225

Today's Topics:

                Books - Franklin & Rand & Tolkien &
                        Request for Myth Books & Title Search,
                Films - Rocky Horror,
                Miscellaneous - The Problems With SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: COUNTDOWN TO MIDNIGHT edited by Franklin
Date: 19 Jun 85 22:50:16 GMT

                       COUNTDOWN TO MIDNIGHT
                    edited by H. Bruce Franklin
                             DAW, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     You can tell this is edited by an academic--many of the stories
are interesting from an academic viewpoint, but boring to the
average reader.  How can stories about nuclear warfare be boring?
Well, here's how...

     "To Still the Drums" by Chandler Davis is acceptable, but the
war he talks about could be any war; it doesn't have to be atomic.
"Thunder and Roses" by Theodore Sturgeon is probably the best of the
bunch (well, after all, it is STURGEON).  "Lot" by Ward Moore is of
interest only as the basis of PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO; the ideas in
it have become trite from over use since its writing.  It may very
well have been then--how many times have you read the "survivalist"
story in which there is one character (always female) who is busy
packing her make-up and nylons in her survival kit?  "That Only a
Mother" by Judith Merril has nothing to do with nuclear war (though
one supposedly forms the background of the story).  "I Kill Myself"
by Julian Kawalec is "literate" but not very engrossing.  "The
Neutrino Bomb" by Ralph S. Cooper is cute, but trivial.  "Akua Nuten
(The South Wind)" by Yves Theriault is told from an interesting
perspective, but too shallow.  "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"
by Harlan Ellison didn't appeal to me when I read it fourteen years
ago, and I didn't bother to re-read it here.  "Countdown" by Kate
Wilhelm attempts to touch an emotional chord, but doesn't quite
succeed.  "The Big Flash" by Norman Spinrad is too punkish for my
tastes.  "Everything But Love" by Mikhail Yemstev and Eremei Parnov
was unreadable; I tried, but couldn't force my way through it.  "To
Howard Hughes: A Modest Proposal" by Joe Haldeman showed the most
imagination, but was ultimately unconvincing.

     Perhaps the problem is that the scope of nuclear war does not
lend itself to being reduced to a short story.  Certainly many of
these stories, written before nuclear winter was discovered, no
longer ring true as depictions of a nuclear war.  They are
interesting from an historical perspective, perhaps, but do not
expect engrossing, convincing portrayals of a modern nuclear war.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 19 Jun 85 22:50:41 GMT

                     ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
                            Signet, 1957
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     In spite of its over a thousand pages, I can't find much to say
about this book.  The premise is that the technical and managerial
geniuses, who have been all that has stood between the masses and
ruin, have decided (with the encouragement of one John Galt) no
longer to let their talents and abilities be comandeered by those
less able than themselves, but instead to drop out of society and
form their own society based on their desires.  (I bet you hadn't
realized that Ayn Rand invented the hippie!)  Of course, things
quickly go to hell in a handbasket because of this, starting with
the collapse of the railroads, which Rand sees as the foundation of
American society, trade, and culture.  The result is predictable to
any one who has read any Rand before (though I refuse to believe
that even as there are food and fuel shortages because of collapsing
(in some cases literally) railroads, a post card can get from
Colorado to New York in four days.  It can't do that now!).

     Rand's obvious happiness in killing off all the "worthless"
characters in this book (which includes over 90% of the general
public) makes it somewhat difficult for most people to buy into the
good points that she is making.  While her methods of making her
points are not the most subtle in the world, Rand's questions of
ability and the responsibility of an individual to "donate" his or
her ability to the general good because others have decided so is
well worth considering.  Unfortunately, eleven hundred pages is more
considering that you may want to do.  The best way to read this book
is to skip all the long speeches (particularly in the second half)
and read it as a science fiction "end of the world" story.  Then do
your philosophizing on your own.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 85 09:34 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: sequels

>> Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that
>> Lord of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to
>> listen to anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a
>> nice story).
>
>Actually, TLotR is not a sequel.  When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he
>intended it as a children's story, and its success caught him
>off-guard.  When his publishers asked him for a sequel, he refused,
>and offered them a couple of other stories, including, I believe,
>the Silmarillion (I know, I spelled it wrong).  But, the publishers
>wanted something to follow the hobbit, and so...Tolkien started on
>TLotR.
>
>Unfortunately, The Hobbit was not suited for a sequel.  The
>original version had a Bilbo being given the ring by gollum, for
>winning the riddle game.  In order to establish a link between The
>Hobbit and TLotR, Tolkien had to change later versions of The
>Hobbit to have Bilbo steal the ring, setting up the 'We Hates
>Baggins, Forever' sub-plot.  It was at this point that Tolkien made
>the ring, the ONE ring.  Before it was just a magical ring.  By
>making it the ONE ring, the bond between The Hobbit and TLotR was
>firmly established.
>
>So, to say the TLotR is a sequel to The Hobbit is not quite true,
>it depends on how you look at it.
>
>Jim Sullivan

Your arguements against the idea that the Lord of the Rings is a
sequel don't seem to prove your point. Tolkien wrote the Hobbit and
it was very successful.  Then, because the publishers wanted more
hobbit books, he not only wrote the LotR, he REWROTE The Hobbit to
make it it fit for a sequel! If The Hobbit hadn't been written then
TLotR wouldn't have been either. To me, that is the most important
point concerning whether a book is a sequel or not - would it have
existed without the prior book. Really, the only way LotR could NOT
be labled as a sequel is if it was written BEFORE The Hobbit was
published.  Since it wasn't, it must be a sequel.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 19 Jun 85 17:38:11-PDT
From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: request for books

I am trying to compile a list of books based on myth, excluding
Bible literature (no flames please!).  Celtic and Welsh myths are of
special interest.  Thanks a lot; I'll publish a list if anyone's
interested.  Thanks in advance!

Aline Norris Baeck
SRI, Int'l
Menlo Park, CA
NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ttidcb!guzman@topaz.arpa (Marc Guzman)
Subject: Title search
Date: 12 Jun 85 19:00:52 GMT

... ok, go into a trance.
... tap the racial memory.

I am trying to find the title and author of an sf book I read as a
kid. My memory is limited to :

. there were these vary-hard-to-kill reptilian things called
  zugs.

. and, the specialy bred and raised killers. they were brought
  up in +1G ?bubbles? to give them the necessary strength and
  reactions to kill the zugs.

. set in the ?mid-distant? future.

There might have been a political / social 'situation', but I
wouldn't bet on that point.

        Thanks in advance,
                Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 20 Jun 1985 02:52:45-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: ROCKY HORROR and its audience

> From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot lear)
> First of all, the audience participation changes - not the movie.
> So if there were ever something bored of, it would be seeing RHPS
> 70+ times without the "a.p.".

A matter of personal taste. I have not seen RHPS anywhere *near* 70
times (more on the order of a dozen). If I had a videotape, I'd
maybe watch it an average of once a year.

>> (2) It's debatable whether or not RHPS would have become a cult
>> film without the a.p. Other cult films, HAROLD AND MAUDE and KING
>> OF HEARTS to name two, certainly don't require a.p. And it seems
>> to me that the a.p. started *after* RHPS acheived cult status.
>
> Please define "Cult Status" so that I can understand what you're
> talking about.

Shall I define "cult film" while I'm at it? I think the definition
is clear from context. What don't you understand? The posting to
which I was responding put forth the idea that it was the a.p. that
made RHPS a cult film. What I was saying was that RHPS was a cult
film before the a.p. became the dominant factor in its showing.

>> (3) RHPS did indeed start out as a stage play, but *without* a.p.
>> The movie was first released in late 1975, and the a.p. didn't
>> get into full swing until 1979 or so.
>
> I KNOW that is not true as I have friends who went for the "a.p."
> in '77.

I never said that a.p. didn't exist before 1979. Perhaps what I
should have said was that a.p. didn't become the *raison d'etre* for
RHPS until maybe 1979. Up until that time, I was able to see the
film here and there with minimal or no a.p.

>> (3) As for renting a videotape, I wish I *could*. But, contrary
>> to popular belief, RHPS has *not* yet been released on tape (in
>> the US, at least).
>
> "Life sucks and then you die."  If you really miss RHPS get the
> film. (Find a friend in England or something).

Yes, I miss RHPS, but not to the extent that I am willing to buy a
film projector and screen and a copy of the film so that I can watch
it once a year. As for getting a videotape from England, I wish I
could, but British videotapes are PAL standard, not NTSC.  Again, I
don't miss RHPS enough to warrant buying a multi-standard VCR.
Contrary to your apparent belief, I don't think that RHPS is the
greatest thing since the cuckoo clock. It's just reasonably good
entertainment that I would like to see some more.

> However contrary to your beliefs *MANY* people go to the movie for
> the "a.p." and probably would not go without it!

Where in my postings did I espouse the belief that many people
*don't* go to the movie for the a.p.? I don't refute that statement.
I only said that there are some of us who like the movie for itself,
and that the a.p. ruins our enjoyment of it. The point I was arguing
was the claim that the a.p. was *essential* to the enjoyment of the
film. That's pure, unadulterated bullshit. There are many people
besides me that *stopped* going to see the movie when the a.p. "took
over".
        In the late 70's, a few sf conventions showed the film,
scheduling two separate showings of the film, one very clearly
specified as "No audience participation" (which at that time was
mostly confined to just yelling comments at the screen --- no rice,
toilet paper, etc.). It was no surprise that this "No a.p." showing
was attended by a large number of folks who still insisted on
yelling their silly comments.
        If thousands of fans get their kicks dressing up in fishnet
stockings and throwing toilet paper every Friday night, that's Aces
with me (seriously! no sarcasm intended). I just want those people
to be aware that there are those of us who *don't* think that's the
be-all and the end-all of RHPS.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
   soon to be:
        boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM

------------------------------

From: mwm@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike (I'll be mellow when I'm dead) Meyer)
Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply
Date: 9 Jun 85 08:47:49 GMT

oz@yetti.UUCP writes:
>Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but
>you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For
>edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by
>R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michelangelo is not "just another"
>sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any
>trashcan, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may
>believe otherwise.

Yup, you're right - I'll know quality when it hits me in the face.
For instance, any book that can (intentionally) keep me laughing as
long as NOTB did is definetly QUALITY. Or maybe quality in an
artistic field is subjective, not objective? Since you seem to think
that it's objective, why don't you let the rest of the world in on
your measurement technics.

>Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ???
>(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary
>masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!)

I don't know - neither do you. Unless, of course, you have a time
machine. Considering the amount of verbiage it's generated on the
net, I suspect it'll be remembered by generations to come.

>Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is
>published. DOes one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ???

No, but it helps :-). You might consider that if we stop printing
half the SF published (or any other genre, for that matter), chances
are the stuff you consider "good" is going to get thrown out, as the
stuff that sells (like NOTB) will be what the publishers continue
printing.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 00:15:36 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: D. Tucker's latest sally...

Well, for once I agree.  There are many books that would have made
fine short stories.  As an exercise, I was given to take every
paragraph in The Sword of ShaNaNa and cut them to one sentence each.
It was almost readable after that...

There is a great deal of intensity and focus inherent in the
short-story form, by its very stricture of length.  Yet I have known
many authors who have said that a book they wrote started out as a
short-story.  I wonder what significance this has.  Suggestions?

In the early days of Science Fiction, the major market was in
magazines.  There were dozens, some for each branch of the field.
Today, as was reported in a recent issue of Locus, the SF magazine
industry is in big trouble.  Subscriptions are way down, and quality
is in the basement.  The real money is in books.  Is it any wonder,
then, that authors who could and should be writing fine
short-stories are writing poor novels?

There must be some way to bring honour back to the short-story form.
Perhaps people should, instead of letting subscriptions lapse
because of dissatisfaction with the story quality, write to the
editors and tell them what people would rather see.

Does this make sense?  I admit to a certain amount of bias, as I
have been much more successful in selling my short-stories than my
novel.

How many editors read this digest?  Might it not be better than
flaming in (more or less) private, to flame at the source of the
problem?

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jun 85 1007-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #226
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 21 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 226

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bradshaw & O'Donnell & Rand & Sturgeon &
                  Thomas & Dragonlance,
          Films - Return to Oz,
          Television - Star Trek & Robotech & Space: 1999 &
                  Banned Shows,
          Miscellaneous - Video Tape Formats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 21:57 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Hawk of May and trilogy

While on vacation in England I came across an Arthurian trilogy
which deserves mention.  After some of the "problems with SF"
essays, I am almost afraid to mention yet another Arthurian book,
but these quite moved me.

The books are by Gillian Bradshaw, Methuen Paperbacks,
11 New Fetter Lane, London, EC4P, 4EE
The Hawks of May
Kingdom of Summer
In Winter's Shadow

I have finished the first and part of the second.  Despite the
surfeit of Arthurian books this is very good.  The covers first drew
me, but the stories are good.  They take liberties with the mythos
by creating Gwalchmai, the brother of Agravain, son of Lot, who
becomes Arthur's best knight.  The interaction with Queen Morgawse
and Arthur is well done and quite frightening.

Also the emotions of Gwalchmai, as he tried to become a member of
Arthur's court were good enough to move me to tears.  (Of course, I
cry every time I see the end of Casablanca)

If you can find these books, these are the best Arthurian spinoffs
in quite a while.

John Mellby                P.O.Box 801, Mail Station 8007
Texas Instruments          McKinney Texas 75069
JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 00:12 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: "Bander Snatch" by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr.

A little over three months ago, there was a discussion on SF-LOVERS
about O'Donnell, and I recall a couple people on the net (myself
including) were looking for "Bander Snatch".  Although the book has
been out of print for five years, I have found a store that, as of
eight hours ago, still had three copies in stock.  It is:

Mark Ziesing
P.O. Box 806
Willimantic, CT  06226
Phone:  (203) 423-5836 - days
        (203) 423-3867 - nights

(Actually, the above is on the catalog they gave me in the store; in
addition to a formidable sf stock, they do mail order.  Not bad for
a store found by a chance-seen sign while driving through
Willimantic!)  Incidentally, these copies were autographed, if it
makes a difference.
                     Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa (Ephrayim J. Naiman)
Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 20 Jun 85 15:53:41 GMT

>      Rand's obvious happiness in killing off all the "worthless"
> characters in this book (which includes over 90% of the general
> public) makes it somewhat difficult for most people to buy into
> the good points that she is making.  While her methods of making
> her points are not the most subtle in the world, Rand's questions
> of ability and the responsibility of an individual to "donate" his
> or her ability to the general good because others have decided so
> is well worth considering.  Unfortunately, eleven hundred pages is
> more considering that you may want to do.  The best way to read
> this book is to skip all the long speeches (particularly in the
> second half) and read it as a science fiction "end of the world"
> story.  Then do your philosophizing on your own.
>                                       Evelyn C. Leeper

I disagree.  Although I am an avid science fiction fan, I enjoyed
the story not for its link to science fiction.  Her style of writing
has got me totally hooked (although her philosophies I tend to
disagree with).  I even got through two-thirds of her 56-page speech
the second time around.

> Of course, things quickly go to hell in a handbasket because of
> this, starting with the collapse of the railroads, which Rand sees
> as the foundation of American society, trade, and culture.

I also felt that Ayn Rand was pushing things a bit to assume that
the railroads would pull the rest of the country and world down.

Ephrayim J. Naiman
AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4,allegra,mtuxo,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Sturgeon's Law
Date: 20 Jun 85 20:45:04 GMT

There have been references to Theodore Sturgeon recently, and also a
few citations of the famous "Sturgeon's Law". I would like to trace
down the actual origin and exact text of this famous principle.

This is commonly quoted as "90% of *everything* is crap." However, I
have heard that percentage vary from "90%" to "95%" up to "99%". (As
a great truth, I lean toward the "99" being the more correct figure.
:-) (But here I am more interested in what Sturgeon really said.)

Also, the last word has varied from "crap" to "sh*t" (please excuse
the usage, but accuracy is more important here than nicety).

What is the true wording of this famous phrase?

Can anyone cite the actual text where this originated? Or was it of
verbal origin, perhaps in a lecture or talk or in a conversation
(maybe at a con somewhere?) and entered the SF folklore via
reporting and repetition?

Thanks for your help!

Regards,
Will Martin
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 21:56 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: And now, for something completely different

Everyone is asking for stories, so I'm going to ask for a publisher.
I was in Wales a while ago and found a book:
   "A Knot of Spells" by Frances Thomas,
   Barn Owl Press, 3 Crown Atreet, Port Talbot, West Glamorgan

After reading it, I found it to be the SECOND book of a trilogy.
Does anyone know a bookstore in the US which could get the other
books of this trilogy?  They are:
   The Blindfold Track
   The Region of the Summer Stars

The book itself is about the Welch bard, Taliesin.  It is light
reading, but enjoyable.

John Mellby               P.O.Box 801, Mail Station 8007
Texas Instruments         McKinney Texas 75069
JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

From: hcrvax!jims@topaz.arpa (Jim Sullivan)
Subject: Dragonlance Series: Additional Books
Date: 19 Jun 85 02:29:16 GMT

When the first posting about the second book in the Dragonlance
Series came up, I replied, noting that I couldn't find the
additional books in the series.  Well, several people took the time
to tell me that I was confusing the books with the modules (which
those who play AD&D can play).  This is my chance to have a global
"I told you."

On the last page of Book 2, there is the following (note, this is
copied without permission, so there!)

   Other Books in the DRAGONLANCEtm world include:
                .
   PRISONERS OF PAX THARKAS by Morris Simon.
                .
   THE SOULFORGE by Terry Phillips.

Now, does anyone know where I can find these books ?

Thanks
Jim Sullivan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 12:06:27 PDT
From: mccullough.pa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Oz

Little known fact, but the Disney Studios own the rights to all the
Oz books except the first.  In their (current) judgement, there was
no one book that could be made into a successful film, hence Return
To Oz is a new story.

Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton
bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most
were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and
published under Baum's name.

------------------------------

From: mot!al@topaz.arpa (Al Filipski)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 20 Jun 85 03:27:25 GMT

> Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in
> Battlestar pathetica ?

I don't know about that one, but in one episode of Star Trek, in
which the ship was being subjected to some extreme conditions, Spock
reports to Kirk that the reading on a gauge is something like "7
times 1 to the 35th power" with the implication that this is a large
number.  The episode might have been "Tomorrow is Yesterday" where
they go back and forth in time by whipping through a high gravity
gradient.

Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A
{seismo|ihnp4}!ut-sally!oakhill!mot!al
allegra!sftig!mot!al
ucbvax!arizona!asuvax!mot!al

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 23:07:45 CDT
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1>
Subject: Wanted: videotape of Robotech episode #4

St. Louis' ARCHON convention is looking for a copy of episode #4 of
the new Robotech (Japanese animation) TV series.  Does anyone out
there have a copy they could loan to us for showing or copying?

We have permission from the distributors of this series to show
anything that has already appeared on the air in the US, but we have
to use off-the-air taped copies.  Because the local station changed
the schedule one week without telling anyone, NOBODY in St. Louis
has a copy of episode 4 (except the TV station, and the schedule
change was about the most helpful thing they've done to date WRT
this program).

If anyone in SFL-land has a copy of the episode we need, we can send
you a tape to copy it onto, with return postage, or you can send us
your tape and we will copy it and return the original with
reimbursement for your postage.

Cheers,
Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
             <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
             (314) 421-2860 (collect calls OK on this)

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999, Gerry Anderson and Lew Grade
Date: 20 Jun 85 21:53:25 GMT

> Space 1999, discussed several times in this news group, came up to
> the bat with two strikes against it (is this the right
> Americanism?).  First, the puppet shows which preceded it; second,
> the "Star Trek" which preceded it! Any show (and as far as I'm
> aware, there has only been "1999") in which a group of people trek
> round the stars is right up against it! We can only compare it
> with "Star Trek" and perhaps I'm being biased in saying it would
> have to be a damned good show to compete.

What? That's ridiculous? Who said anything about Star Trek, or
comparing Space:1999 with Star Trek. (There are plenty of SF books,
movies, tv shows that have "space voyages" that can stand on their
OWN merits without comparing them against anything.) Although I
admit that Space:1999 was compared against StarTrek when it first
came out, but that's mostly due to the producers. I remember all the
blurbs that came out with the promotional crap: "..the first
realistic science-fiction drama show since Star Trek..." etc. And
the bit about getting some of the Star Trek make-up, costume and
production crew and then telling everyone about it...they were
inviting comparisons.

But, putting all that aside, Space:1999 was just silly. Nuclear
waste dumps that ignite (?) and thrust the moon out of earth's orbit
(?) with Martin Landau (?) and Barbara Bain (?) at the helm.

> Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Let me just finish by saying
> if LLG is fodder for attack, I think you Americans should consider
> some of your own producers. Glen Larson isn't as good as he used
> to be, and as for Irwin Allen ...

Oh, I get it..."...I'm British, and there is someone out there who
doesn't like something British...we can't have that...."

I was commenting on Space:1999 because it "t'ain't funny McGee..."
Of course America has bad producers (we have this thing called
"Hollywood mentality") but so does the UK and Australia and Russia
and...

Face it, can you REALLY like a show that has Barbara Bain saying
wonderful dialogue like: "John, I'm scared." with as much emotion as
saying: "John, you're tie is in the blender." ?

                 Rob DeMillo
                 Madison Academic Computer Center
                 ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: ukc!msp@topaz.arpa (M.S.Parsons)
Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time
Date: 27 Jun 85 15:08:42 GMT

mae@aplvax.UUCP (Mary Anne Espenshade) writes:
>The original CBS late-night showing of UFO omitted the episode
>Timelash, because Commander Straker and Col. Lake were shown
>injecting themselves with stimulents to fight the aliens who had
>slowed time over the studio and stopped everyone else in SHADO
>headquarters.

TIMELASH: So that's the name of that episode! I saw it many years
ago but I thought it was excellent. It certainly provoked thought
about Time itself.

Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
(controlling your local time)?

Mike Parsons
UUCP: ..{ucl-cs|edcaad|mcvax|qtlon}!ukc!msp
msp@ukc.UUCP
JANET:MSP%UKC%{EDXA,UCL-CS}
MSP@UKC.AC.UK
Mail: Computing Lab, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, England.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 20 Jun 85 14:15:52-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Re: RHPS, Magenta, and UK video tapes

> From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
> BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be
> played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK
> machine to copy the UK video to US tape. If someone in UK has a US
> machine, I would be glad to send them a tape to get a copy.

Ok, here's the facts on TV standards (as far as I understand them
anyway)

North America and some other parts of the world use the NTSC colour
system (sorry color) at a 30 Hertz field rate.  Europe and many
other parts of the world use PAL or SECAM colour at 25 Hertz.

The problem with trying to show a PAL tape in an NTSC environment on
single standard equipment is then that the VCR sees all the timing
signals at the wrong time and so can't decode a picture and that the
colour information is encoded in a different form. The first of
these problems can be eliminated by just changing the timebase
crystal and many modern VCR's can now decode at either field rate.
This gives a monochrome picture at 25Hz. which can be displayed by
NTSC televisions because the line and frame oscillators have a wide
enough lock range to synchronize with the slightly slower timing.

The *big* problem comes with displaying this in colour on an NTSC
system.  Firstly there is no colour signal coming from the VCR and
even if there was, the tv couldn't do anything with it. To solve
this, the VCR must be capable of decoding PAL information. Again
there does exist multi standard equipment which can do this. Next
there must be a tv set which can accept PAL.  In Europe at least, it
is fairly common for tv sets to be able to do decode PAL/SECAM and
NTSC automatically. I suspect the same will be true in the US as the
Japanese design tv sets for all world markets and it keeps there
costs down if they can keep the designs as similar as possible.

All of the above might sound complicated but is actually quite easy
to achieve mainly because multi standard equipment is becoming a lot
more common.  Converting a tape is as far as I know very difficult.
How do you make 25 frames into 30 without using lots of digital
storage ? Oh well in these days of these micro computer thingies, I
suppose its much cheaper than in the old days. Still the somewhat
jerky movements that result when live NTSC events are broadcast over
here in PAL show that even with expensive equipment that the BBC and
ITV use, the results are not particularly amazing.

Meaning ?

Well I think people can forget about trying to copy UK PAL tapes
onto NTSC tapes without degrading the picture quality quite
considerably.  Go for some degree of multi-standard. NTSC is a
terrible colour system anyway and PAL is much better. But then I
suppose thats the price you have to pay for pioneering colour
television.

Hope this has all been reasonably correct and has some relevance to
SF-LOVERS. I'm sure I'll be told if its isn't !

                Alan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 85 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #227
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 227

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bradshaw (2 msgs) & Brust & Donaldson &
                  Rand & Zelazny,
          Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs),
          Television - Banned TV Shows & Space: 1999 &
                  Star Trek (2 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica,
          Miscellaneous - Video Tape Formats (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Jun 85  12:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Gillian Bradshaw
From: ("Joe Herman @ Merryland <HERMAN@UMDB>") <HERMAN@UMDB.ARPA>
To: ("JMELLBY%TI-EG%CSNET-RELAY.ARPA@UMD2?") <POSTMASTER@UMD2.ARPA>

I read your article in SF-Lovers.  I quite agree with you.  The Hawk
of May trillogy is one of the best arthurian tragedies I've ever
read.  I should warn you, the third book is horribly depressing.
It's still one of the best I've read, but it is very sad.

Have you found anything else by Gillian Bradshaw?  I've only been
able to find the trilogy.  Do you know if she's still writing?

                           -- Dzoey

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Hawk of May and trilogy
Date: 22 Jun 85 14:31:38 GMT

Gwalchmai was the Welsh name for the character who appears in later
British/French romances as Gawain.

Speaking of Welsh names, the characters who appear in Malory and
other Arthurian retellings as Lot and Aaron appear in the Welsh
triads as Lleu and Araun.  (They're the two brothers of Urien, for
those who haven't read the Matter of Britain lately.)

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Rereading Brust (& Sequels)
Date: 21 Jun 85 05:04:53 GMT

I typically let a book wait a week or two before rereading it, but I
found that after reading JHEREG, I immediately reread it.  (And
after reading YENDI, I first reread JHEREG and then reread YENDI.)

SKZB, any chance of eventually getting (if not another 15 books to
complete the cycle) a prequel showing Vlad meeting Morollan and a
sequel/prequel wrapping up Vlad's knowledge of his previous life?
Pretty please.

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 20 Jun 85 06:47:49 GMT

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>I've read 5 books of T.C., which I found compulsive reading.  There
>are certainly some good ideas in the books, but I would shy WAY
>back from a lot of the statements that have been made about the
>series.  There is a certain dreary sameness of tone in the books
>which eventually killed my interest.

I will agree that after the first trilogy, it does bog down a bit
(and a lot in _The One Tree_).  That is one reason why I consider
the first trilogy to be the superior of the two.

>Something that I didn't notice originally was that great tracts are
>tremendously overwritten or contain other stylistic faults.  I am
>told (although I confess I don't remember the passage) that the
>following sentence is taken from a T.C. book:
>
>     "The horses were virtually protrate on their feet."
>
>One could, I suppose, take this to be poetic; but it gets to you
>after a while.  This same problem occurs in what is otherwise a
>very good story: "Unworthy of the Angel".
>
>What really struck me as absurd was someone's statement in an
>earlier article that there was no connection between the Land and
>Middle Earth.  Donaldson himself has said that "I consider fiction
>to be the only valid tool for theological inquiry."

How does this imply a connection between T.C. and LOTR?

>Certainly there is a strong mythopoeic quality to the books; what
>is more important is the cosmology stated in the very first book.
>Anyone who has read the _Silmarillion_ should be able to recognize
>the obvious parallels between Sauron and Lord Foul.

I have read the Silmarillion and I cannot see *ANY* parallels betwen
Sauron and Lord Foul (except that they are both the bad guys).
Could you point out some clear parallels?

>This is not to say that I think there is any plagarism involved;
>but when two writers go to write mythopoeic fiction dealing with
>cosmological issues, and when both come out of a well-learned
>Judaeo-Christian background, it is to be expected that there should
>be some parallels.

Again, what parallels?

>I would not say that the T.C. books are great literature (as I
>would, for instance, say of LOTR).  On the other hand, there is
>obvious talent there in spite of the various problems.

Most of that can be blamed on this being Donaldson's first works
(even Tolkien had to have had some rough first works (unless he was
a prodigy)).

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 20:27:39 -0200
Subject: Leeper's review of Atlas Shrugged

I am not going to answer anything in that review; anyone who read
Atlas Shrugged can answer by himself, and for those who didn't, I
can't say much without spoiling the plot.  Also, Atlas Shrugged is,
in essence, Realism (though it does have a certain Science-Fiction
element), so I'm not sure a discussion about it belongs in
SFLovers-Digest at all.

Let me just say to those who did not read Atlas Shrugged: Leeper's
description isn't even remotely connected to what happens in the
book.  If you decide, because of that review, not to read Atlas
Shrugged, then you're making a big mistake.  If you want many hours
of a unique reading experience, including one of the most
suspenseful, ingenious, page-turning plots ever written,
consistently appealing and well-drawn characters, and an important,
thought-provoking philosophical theme, then I strongly recommend
that you do yourself a favor, by reading Atlas Shrugged, as soon as
possible.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!bllklly@topaz.arpa (Bill Kelly)
Subject: Re: Zelazny, Brust
Date: 21 Jun 85 22:15:44 GMT

stever@cit-vax writes:
>I also have stylistic problems with RZ.  When I read a book like
>Tanith Lee's "To Kill The Dead", I see a power of characterization
>RZ cannot touch.  ...Has RZ ever had a truly morbid character?
>(Shadowjack sought vengeance which is a quite different thing)

Speaking as a Zelazny fan, I think most of his protagonists are
pretty much the same character, a male loner, sardonic, somewhat of
a rebel, in books like Doorways in the Sand, Amber series (Corwin)
and Trumps (Merlin), Roadways(? I have trouble remembering the
titles), Changeling(?), The Dying Land, even short stories like the
unicorn/chess one in the Unicorn Variation collection.  Even Jack of
Shadows is a variation on the same theme, though more of a variation
than usual.

I just happen to like reading about this character!

Bi||    {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly
Ke||y   1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706

------------------------------

From: ISM780!patrick@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW
Date: 20 Jun 85 06:47:00 GMT

I'm feeling snotty tonight - please excuse.

First saw this in a small theatre on the King's Road in the early
70s; it was outrageous, and made us fall off our seats.  The movie
seemed pale in comparison (the surprise - shock?  - was gone).

I remember having a similar reaction to Mel Brooks' "The Producers".
Saw it about the same time, when it was an obscure B-movie, and the
shock value alone had me rolling in the aisles ("he can't do
that....").  I still enjoy the movie, but it's not the same.

------------------------------

From: druxo!knf@topaz.arpa (FricklasK)
Subject: Re:Rocky Horror Video Tapes
Date: 21 Jun 85 18:43:14 GMT

I used to belong to Captain Video in San Francisco, and they had
tapes on normal VHS format of both RHPS and Shock treatment - SO-
They DO exist!

   Ken
PS read Little, Big by John Crowley...

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry.
Date: 20 Jun 85 22:01:16 GMT

>       Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the
>U.S.?  I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas
>& four were banned in Britain, the reason being violence.
>       The reasons given for the banning in Texas indicate that
>some of the British shows may run in to similar problems. Notably
>THE PYRAMIDS OF MARS story from DR WHO dealing with Egyptian Gods &
>THE TROUBLESOME SPIRIT & LAMBDA FACTOR episodes of 1999 dealing
>with ghousts and strange powers. Has this happened?
>                                                       Andy T.

    I remember reading (many many moons ago) that there were several
episodes of Star Trek not shown in parts of Texas, Louisiana, and
Arkansas due to "inferences to the devil," or something along those
lines. Also, as I have mentioned before in this group, the animated
star trek was removed from NBC after portraying Lucifer as a
"not-so-bad-guy-afterall."

   Censorship never seems to end...

                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 20 Jun 85 17:01:40 GMT

ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes:
>I was twelve when 1999 first premiered.  I thought it was bug eyed
>monsters then. The premiere had radiation turning people's eyes
>into fried eggs.  (Remember that?)  The show was bug eyed monsters
>and more bug eyed monsters.

ummm, I think that was an Outer Limits episode....  Not that I think
1999 wouldn't have done it if they'd have thought of it.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it (Really Star Trek)
Date: 19 Jun 85 13:57:25 GMT

>> Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ...  What about the
>> never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise
>
>The Enterprise had starbases with fresh supplies of Redshirts to
>serve as monster chow.  Space 1999 had NO new people coming in,
>excepting Maya, and no supplies.

If you want to discuss the various incongruities you should read
David Gerrold's book on the show. He discusses such points as how
long a Captain of a major capital ship could make it a practice to
leave his command and particpate in ground actions without getting
cashiered. And most of the time he took his first officer with him
too!

------------------------------

From: moncol!john@topaz.arpa (John Ruschmeyer)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 21 Jun 85 08:17:44 GMT

>From: thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP (ZNAC468)
>       Maya's shape changeing ability is not original. Captain
>Garth, from STAR TREK's WHOM GODS DESTROY had a similar ability
>limited to humanoid forms. He could change into an alien (SPOCK)
>and must have physically changed to assume the voice. Here the
>ability was called 'CELLULAR REMETAMORPHOSIS'. If one show can get
>away with that, why did Maya come in for so much stick?

Captain Garth was only shown changing into human or human-like
sentient forms. This is the distinction between him and Maya.

Maya was shown changing into everything from very non-human aliens
to an orange tree. She could also change into beings of equally
varying sizes.

As others have pointed out in this group, where does the excess
energy go when she turns into a fly? By avoiding such drastic form
changes, Garth is a much more plausible character.

Name:           John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:        Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:          (201) 222-6600 x366
UUCP:           ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john
                ...!princeton!moncol!john
                ...!pesnta!moncol!john

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: fixes to Galactica
Date: 21 Jun 85 20:57:27 GMT

From Jay Parks (parks@noao.UUCP) on suggestions to improve Galactica:
> c: Make the cylons aliens, for gosh sakes.  If they are robots,
> then say that they were constructed by the GALACTICANS!  That
> could lead to all sorts of interesting intrigue, the invention
> that went wrong.

You may have missed the reference, Jay, but the Cylons *were*
described as built by an alien race that had died out during the
long war, leaving only their robots to continue the fight.  The
original Cylons were reptilian, but not humanoid reptiles like the
silly ones in V.  They found the human form more efficient and so
built their robots in that shape (didn't succeed on efficiency
though, since it takes three to fly one fighter).  The Cylon command
robots, not often seen after the show began concentrating on
Baltar's base ship, are shaped like the original Cylons, and look
vaguely like frogs to me.

                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: RHPS, Magenta, and UK video tapes
Date: 20 Jun 85 09:56:09 GMT

> [From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
> BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be
> played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK
> machine to copy the UK video to US tape. If someone in UK has a US
> machine, I would be glad to send them a tape to get a copy.

You are right that UK videos cannot be played on US machines.  But
you are wrong to think that you can copy a UK video tape to a US
tape even with both a US machine and a UK machine.  They both use
different kinds of video signals and require different kinds of TV
sets.  The US video signal standard is called NTSC and the UK video
signal standard is called PAL.  The only ways to copy tapes from UK
format to US format, are to buy a special digital device that costs
more than $10,000, or to play the UK tape on a UK TV and then copy
the picture off of the TV with a camera onto a US tape.  This second
methods entails serious loss of fidelity.

Why do I know this cruft?  I collect Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel
videos....
                 Doug Alan
                  nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 16:03:22 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: US vs UK television

From Gaylene Callaghan:
> ... BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be
> played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK
> machine to copy the UK video to US tape.

It's worse than that.  You would need a UK machine to play the tape,
a UK television to watch the video signal (it's PAL format, not
NTSC), and even a 50hz (maybe 220V) power supply to power the VCR
and TV.  Then someone with a good color camera and VCR (American)
would have to record the TV picture.  Needless to say, this will not
give you good results.

There are some (rather expensive) machines which convert from one
format to another.  The main problem is that PAL has 625 scan-lines
in a picture, while NTSC (American) has 525.  The scan-lines have to
be averaged together.  (For graphics buffs, this is just like
anti-aliasing.)

Annoying, isn't it?  There are several British videotapes that I
would buy if it weren't for the difference in formats.  (We got
stuck with NTSC, sometimes known as "Never Twice the Same Color",
the earliest and worst.  Most of the world uses PAL ("Perfect At
Last").  Now high-resolution TV will appear and make yet another
standard or two ... )
                                                --Peter Alfke
jpa144@cit-vax
alfke.pasa@xerox after 6/30

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 85 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #228
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 228

Today's Topics:

              Books - Donaldson & Rand & Welsh Myths &
                      Controlling Time & The Oz Books (2 msgs),
              Television - Space: 1999 & Outer Limits &
                      Battlestar Galactica

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85  9:24:13 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA>
Subject: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From

Like any good compulsive sf lover, I'll take a shot at almost
anything that can be found in the science fiction/fantasy area of a
bookstore -- and where a book or author's reputation preceeds it,
I'll give more than one try in many cases.

I have not read more than half of any book by Stephan R Donaldson.
I've tried, but:

  o I could not relate to the main character.  I didn't care about
    him.  He seemed to have the emotional subtlety and sense of a
    deoderant commercial, to use the first shallow image to comes to
    mind.  This is not a requisite criterion by my standards, but,
    in the absense of empathy, there should be some implicit point,
    conflict or interest to keep me connected.

  o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully dims)
    had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, dumb
    ephithets.  "Helleshin!" comes to mind.  What ever happened to
    "By the crimson bands of Cyttorak", etc?  [ Yes, I know -- this
    is actually one of Dr. Strange's shellscripts ]

  o Opening any of the books at random, any paragraph I read was
    more likely than not to be extremely badly written --
    overwritten, wrong words used, clumsy, trying to do all the work
    and not evoking anything.

I think I've given the double trilogy a fair shot, and it's not my
pot of tea.  Given the quantity of books, and their popularity in
terms of sales, I should assume there is some merit and value.  And
then I think of the Gor books, and realize that popularity is no
absolute guarantee.

I can believe there is something of interest and value inside these
books.  I just couldn't get through the surface for it.

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

From: azure!michaelk@topaz.arpa (Michael Kersenbrock)
Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 21 Jun 85 07:23:43 GMT

>      In spite of its over a thousand pages, I can't find much to
> say about this book.  The premise is that the technical and
> managerial geniuses, who have been all that has stood between the
> masses and ruin, have decided (with the encouragement of one John
> Galt) no longer to let their talents and abilities be comandeered
> by those less able than themselves, but instead to drop out of
> society and form their own society based on their desires.  (I bet
> you hadn't realized that Ayn Rand invented the hippie!)  Of
> course, things quickly go to hell in a handbasket because of this,
> starting with the collapse of the railroads, which Rand sees as
> the foundation of American society, trade, and culture.  The
> result is predictable to any one who has read any Rand before
> (though I refuse to believe that even as their are food and fuel
> shortages because of collapsing (in some cases literally)
> railroads, a post card can get from Colorado to New York in four
> days.  It can't do that now!).

Remember that this book was published in 1957, so I suspect that the
train system was of greater importance up until that time than it is
now. Remember how just the slight (probably faked) oil shortage we
had ten or so years ago affected us?  What if the oil industry
collapsed? (no gas,oil, etc) Society as we know it would collapse
instantly.  But then, that really isn't an important factor in
Rand's book.  It could have been anything, railroads were just
handy.

The book is about individualism and capitalism.  When a person is
born into a system where everybody else ("society") controls how you
do things it can be difficult to know what has been done to you
("brainwashing").  Atlas shrugged goes to great length to convince
you of what is going on, that is, how you are being controlled.
This is taken both on an individual level and on an economic level.

Rand's basic premise is that: you as an individual are important,
and that "society" isn't a GOD-like creature that "knows" better
than you what you should do in life -- because "society" is simply a
large number of folk who know only as much as you do.  She believes
strongly in personal freedom.

Further, she basically pushes the idea of capitalism in it's purest
sense.  She puts it up as the ideal that society should organize and
strive for.  This is a book about ideas and ideals.  This is
particularly interesting because as I understand, Ayn Rand was born
and raised in Russia.  She is more "American" than Americans (you
know what I mean!).

Rand greatly simplifies how the world works as to minimize the
number of variables in the story.  This is like doing a scientific
experiment where you keep all the variables fixed except the one you
are studying.  Rand does this same thing to make her points.
Further, she speeds up the effects (like having everything
economically collapse in a year or two, where it really would take
20 years) as to speed up the story.  These methods distort the story
away from daily-life paced action, but then not nearly so much as
television where the entire world is constantly saved within an hour
(even with commercials).

>      Rand's obvious happiness in killing off all the "worthless"
> characters in this book (which includes over 90% of the general
> public) makes it somewhat difficult for most people to buy into
> the good points that she is making.  While her methods of making
> her points are not the most subtle in the world, Rand's questions
> of ability and the responsibility of an

Indeed, she isn't the least bit subtle, but the concepts are
difficult to emotionally accept even though they are very simple
logically.  Rand takes things to extremes to make her point even
clearer, to try and puncture through your emotional resistance to
the ideas presented.

> individual to "donate" his or her ability to the general good
> because others have decided so is well worth considering.
> Unfortunately, eleven hundred pages is more considering that you
> may want to do.  The best way to read this book is to skip all the
> long speeches (particularly in the second half) and read it as a
> science fiction "end of the world" story.  Then do your
> philosophizing on your own.

Upon the books first reading, I would recommend reading the long
speeches (maybe skimming here and there) and to skip them in later
readings.  This a book I like a very great deal. I would like to get
hold of a hard-bound copy.  It affected me greatly in terms of
"energizing" me in my battle against the world for my livelihood.  I
think someone can tell whether (s)he will like it in the first
couple chapters, because the rest of the book will be the same only
intensified.  I strongly recommend this book.  I regret not one
penny of the money that I traded for the book.

Mike Kersenbrock
Tektronix Microcomputer Development Products
Aloha, Oregon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 22:55:21 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #226

Gwalchmai is no "creation" as you put it; Gwalchmai is the Welsh
name for Gawain, and he was indeed among the best of Arthur's
knights in the original Medieval Welsh legends.  If you want to find
these, they're usually included with the Four Branches of the
Mabinogi, in the manuscripts and/or books that contain them.  There
are also "continentalised" versions by Chretien de Troyes.  There is
some argument as to whether or not the Welsh versions we have these
days are re-Welshings of Chretien's tales.  The tales include the
tale of Peredur/Perceval (pretty much the same as Mallory), the
story of Owain/Yvain (also known in Welsh as The Tale of the Lady of
the Fountain and in French as The Knight of the Lion), and the one
story untouched by Chretien, called "Kulhwch and Olwen" which
describes how Kulhwch, a nephew of Arthur, wins for himself the
daughter of the Chief of Giants for a bride, and includes an amusing
five-page long invocation by Kulhwch of all the knights at Arthur's
court and some of their strange attributes.  Well worth reading; a
good translation is in Patrick Ford's _The_Mabinogi_ (UC Press,
1977).

You'll find Gwalchmai's name there...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Subject: Re: On controlling Time
Date: 22 Jun 85 08:28:32 EDT (Sat)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA

>From Mike Parsons:
>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>(controlling your local time)?

There is only one that I can think of: Time Storm by Gordon R.
Dickson.  Time Storm is about time lines running loose over the
Earth, pushing people randomly back and forth in time.  One man
decides to fight the phenomenon, and begins to control the time
lines.  He can also move himself and others by controlling the
forces that cause the time lines.  Interesting, and fun reading.

        -Nancy
<nancy@mit-htvax.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: Fri 21 Jun 85 14:51:07-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Aux armes, Citoyens!
To: FIRTH@tl-20b.ARPA

> Yesterday in a bookstore I picked up a book: Return to Oz a novel
> by Joan D Vinge based on a movie from Disney studios.  Now the
> world knows that the marvelous Oz books were written by L Frank
> Baum, may his name be honoured for ever.  This variant either
> dropped out of a parallel universe or is a condensation of a
> couple of those books, especially The Land of Oz (Copyright MCMIV
> by L Frank Baum. All Rights Reserved).
>
> An author lives in his books.  To deprive an author, however long
> out of copyright, of the acknowledgement that is his due is a foul
> crime....  Meanwhile, let all who care about courtesy (at least)
> to authors living and dead BOYCOTT THIS BOOK.  May those who have
> perpetrated this injustice be hated and despised by all
> intellectual beings, both men and angels, throughout eternity!

If you read carefully, you see that credit is given to Baum, as it
is declared that the movie "Return to Oz" is based on /The Land of
Oz/ and /Tik-Tok of Oz/.  (At least it so declares in the movie ads.
I have not inspected the book.)  This book is the novel version of
the particular story that is told in the movie and as such is hardly
a legitimate cause for damnation anymore than the movie is.
(Although, I suppose I should wait to see how bad the movie is.
(:-))

After all, if you go and look in your bookstore again, you will find
millions and millions of Sherlock Holmes stories not written by
Arthur Canon Doyle as well as the several Oz books that were written
after Baum's death (I don't remember the author's name).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Jun 85 03:28:09 PDT
From: geacc022%timevx@cit-hamlet.arpa
Subject: Oz books

> Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton
> bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most
> were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and
> published under Baum's name.

    My understanding was that L. Frank Baum wrote the original 14
books, which were recently republished by Del Rey, and that others
wrote more books after he died under their own names.  I have heard,
but don't know for sure, that Del Rey is planning on republishing
some of the books written by Ruth Plumly Stapleton (sp?).  I hope
so, at any rate!

    You may be confusing these later books with the ghostwritten
books you refer to -- or you could be right.  I'd never heard that
one before.
                        Gary Ansok
                        GEACC022%TIMEVX @ CIT-HAMLET.ARPA
                        GEA @ CALTECH.BITNET
                        ...ucbvax!cithep!timevx#geacc022

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!daar@topaz.arpa (ZNAC426)
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can('t) defend it
Date: 22 Jun 85 03:22:10 GMT

ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes:
>The Enterprise had starbases with fresh supplies of Redshirts to
>serve as monster chow.  Space 1999 had NO new people coming in,
>excepting Maya, and no supplies.

        Most of the Eagles that crashed on the moon could be
salvaged. It was the ones that exploded that reduced the numbers.
New supplies were constantly being mined from under the base and
(presumably) manufacturing new ships.
        Not that many people got killed off; an average of one per
four episodes at most so the population hovered around the 290's
mark.
        The point made by constantly destroying their hardware and
not the people indicates that a message of life's indisposeability
was trying to be conveyed. Concerning bug eyed monsters from other
articles: Star Trek had its share (remember the second pilot where
the eyes turned silver) and the episodes with Baloc and the Gorn?
I'm sure that if the Horta had eyes they would glow.

                                                D.

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 21 Jun 85 18:02:01 GMT

> ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes:
>>I was twelve when 1999 first premiered.  I thought it was bug eyed
>>monsters then. The premiere had radiation turning people's eyes
>>into fried eggs.  (Remember that?)  The show was bug eyed monsters
>>and more bug eyed monsters.
>
> ummm, I think that was an Outer Limits episode....  Not that I
> think 1999 wouldn't have done it if they'd have thought of it.

No, it was 1999.  I remember the Outer Limits episode W/ Frank
Gorshin and the fried egg eyes caused by some sort of strange
stellar radiation on an off world colony. In 1999, radiation from
all the radioactive waste stored on the moon began to do something
cosmic.  It turned people's eyes into poached eggs and then blasted
the moon out of Earth's orbit, straight into some sort of time warp
which happened to be sitting nearby.

Personally, I think the basic premise for 1999 came from an episode
of Outer Limits involving a lunar base.  (I think Martin Landau was
even the base commander, and as I remember the episode it was better
than most episodes of 1999.)  I am sure 1999 wasn't beyond stealing
some fried eggs.
                        Lord Kahless

------------------------------

From: daemon!davest@topaz.arpa (Dave Stewart)
Subject: Re: a gauntlet accepted: fixes to 1999, Galactica
Date: 21 Jun 85 21:50:43 GMT

Battlestar Galactica: Star Wars meets Prime Time.

parks@noao.UUCP (Jay Parks) writes:
>SECTION 3:  CattleCar Badactica  (Uh sorry)
>a: Have them get closer to earth.

        The eternal optimism of the network executive: We sure hope
this show catches on and gets renewed for lots of years so it
doesn't make sense to undermine the concept which motivates the
characters (ie, they can't find Earth, be wiped out, defeat the
Cylons, etc).  This attitude prevales until the show is canceled.

>b: The nature of the villains should have been changed.

        It makes the good guys seem really good to make the bad guys
seem rather cardboard, inhuman monsters.  How simple to make them
machines!  No need for messy things like character development -
just gun 'em down.  An 80's (70's?) Ponderosa.  Also, the "two
ragtag fleets" don't provide enough certain peril for the colonists
(underdog vs vast odds concept that helped Star Wars).  What
bothered me was that the undefended ships in the colonial fleet
never got blasted!

>c: Make the cylons aliens, for gosh sakes.

        Might have worked, but see above.  Good suggestions, but BG
suffered from being bridled with too many network formulas.

David C. Stewart                          uucp:    tektronix!davest
Small Systems Support Group               csnet:   davest@TEKTRONIX
Tektronix, Inc.                           phone:   (503) 627-5418

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jun 85 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #229
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 24 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 229

Today's Topics:

              Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & Harrison &
                      Rand & Williams,
              Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs) &
                      Battlestar Galactica & Banned Shows,
              Miscellaneous - Spoilers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 20 Jun 85 14:56:25 GMT

steven@luke.UUCP (Steven List) writes:
>The biggest problem I have with Donaldson's dual trilogy (other
>than the depressing, frustrating, aggravating nature of the main
>character) is his use of language.  I don't object to being forced
>to look up an occasional new word or twenty.  But GIVE ME A BREAK.
>Donaldson seems to be incapable of writing two pages without
>introducing a word that nobody I know has ever heard of!

I, on the other hand, was familiar with almost all of the words
Donaldson used in the Covenant books AND HE USED THEM INCORRECTLY!
Donaldson seemed to be writing from a dictionary, finding
interesting words and misusing them because he didn't really have a
feel for them.

Now before the flames start, I would like to say what I did the last
time the Covenant books came up here.  I read them eagerly as soon
as I could get my hands on them, despite a prose-style that brought
me to tears on occasion.  Why?  Two reasons.

First reason.  Story-telling ability is independent of writing
ability in some people.  This is true for Donaldson (and on the
opposite end of the verbiage spectrum, Doc Smith).  Donaldson
grotesquely overwrites; Doc Smith couldn't write a believable piece
of dialogue if his life depended on it.  Yet when reading both
writers, I ALWAYS WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED NEXT.  Nothing to
sneer at, and certainly enough to make a career out of.

Second reason.  NOBODY in any branch of literature (that I have
read) can match Donaldson for vileness.  Everyone else is a
bush-leaguer compared to him: constantly despicable protagonists
surrounded by even worse antagonists with just enough virtuous
characters on the periphery to make the others seem worse in
contrast.  I am honest in praising him for this, not coyly insulting
him.  The creation of so many exasperatingly loathesome characters
is a true achievement that no other writer (to my knowledge) has
matched.  Perhaps we readers would usually prefer to read books that
instilled positive emotions, but instilling powerful negative
emotions is just as valid an accomplishment.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 11:13:39 PDT
Subject: Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

I've been following the discussion of Stephen Donaldson's _Covenant_
series over the past few days (digests) and couldn't stay silent any
longer.

Donaldson is a gifted writer and a superb storyteller, but I can't
bring myself to finish reading the _Second_Chronicles_.  I found the
plot line very banal and trivial (forgivable sin), and extremely
padded (unforgivable sin).  I stopped half-way into the second book
(fifth in the overall series) when I realized that I had plowed
through 150 pages of dialog that had gone nowhere and done nothing.
One of the best examples of padding I've ever seen.

I might have been able to continue wading through it if I hadn't
though to myself "Gee, this story never lets up!  There's something
depressing on every page!"  Intrigued, I went back to page one and
started looking for dialogs or descriptions that *weren't* Gloom And
Doom.  Guess what?  The first _163_ pages of _The_One_Tree_ are
continuous, non-stop depression.  Every one of those pages has at
least one mention of something depressing, morbid, flagelatory or
unpleasant.  Finally, on page 164, four paragraphs that don't deal
with something depressing.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was getting tired of paying
for the privilege (in time and money) of watching Donaldson air his
psychological laundry in public.  In my opinion, whatever merit the
_Covenant_ stories have has been ruined by heavy-handed applications
of depression and despair.

I know, I know -- "But that's the whole point of things! Covenant's
despair!"  I understand that. But six novels and 3000 plus pages
devoted to nothing but despair?  Give me a break.  Donaldson had a
great concept in Thomas Covenant, and does a good job creating his
world and breathing life into its characters, but he pushed me
well past my saturation level with unrelenting doses of depression.
I felt like I was being beat over the head with it; like I was too
stupid to understand what was going on, and had to be constantly
reminded so I wouldn't forget what the story was about.

I liked the first three books (even though it might appear
otherwise), but I think the last three were a mistake.  What I read
of them seemed to be a rehash of the first trilogy -- an excuse
for Donaldson to drop off more of his mental baggage and make money
while doing so.

               Jerry Hewett {crash!jerryh@ucsd}

------------------------------

Date: Sat 22 Jun 85 14:20:20-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: /Stainless Steel Rat/ comic book

A "6 issue rodent series", published by Eagle Comics.  Based on the
books by Harry Harrison, adaptated by Kelvin Gosnell, art by Carlos
Ezquerra.

According to the blurb on the inside front cover, the six issues
will reprint adaptations of /The Stainless Steel Rat/, /The SS Rat
Saves the World/ and /The SS Rat for President/ which were
originally printed in the British SF weekly /2000 A.D./ between 1979
and 1984.

The adaptation is reasonably accurate, as far as I can remember.
One objection is that the series reduces three 100+ pages paperback
books to six 42 page comic books, which seems like a loss in detail.
Some of this is admittedly picked up in the art, but the net effect
is a shorter story.

It's worth looking at, at least to see if Ezquerra's image of Di
Griz looks anything like yours.  And maybe we can get back to work
on casting the Rat movie....  I vote for Ronald Reagan as Inskipp
((:-) anything to get him out of the White House!).

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 22 Jun 85 14:03:49 GMT

For consistency with Leeper beliefs on spoilers, this review should
have been marked "spoiler." The reason why all those people were
gradually evaporating is the book's Maguffin (Hitchcock's term for
the thing the plot/hero(ine) focused on chasing down).  You don't
find out until halfway through.

I find the book's preachiness somewhat easier to tolerate (i.e. skim
over) than its sex scenes.  Rand's heroines find true love in what
looks altogether too much like rape to an outside reader.  (This is
true not only of this book but also of THE FOUNTAINHEAD, Rand's SF
novella, and her play.  It may be a giveaway that she adored reading
Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer.  Sometimes I wonder if she would have
also liked Norman's Tarl Cabot had she lived long enough to read
him.)

Of Dagny's three lovers, the first shows his love by slapping her
(when she suggests she could be more popular if she got poorer
grades); the second tells her he despises her because she is willing
to fall in with his lusts; and the third has her without asking her
consent on the railroad track.

I am also somewhat annoyed by the romanticization of smoking.

On the other hand, the idea of a "Robin Hood" who robs from the
governments and gives to the should-be rich whose money has been
taxed away is truly delightful.  And a lot of the plot is very
interesting and well written.

If you like preachy predictions of doom with SF overtones, I also
recommend Taylor Caldwell's THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, Sinclair Lewis's
IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE,...In fact, a lot of mainstream writers have
written one.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 23:05:27 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: A Taliesin Trilogy?

Sounds real good; I've never heard of it, though there's a narrative
poem (I believe) by Charles Williams (of the Inklings) called "The
Region of Summer Stars".  It is part of his series of "Taliessin
[sic] Poems" which include "Taliessin Through Logres" and one other
whose name I forget.

Given all the hoohah lately about copyrights, isn't it a good thing
Williams is dead? (;-)

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Space 1999 : SF-on-TV in general
Date: 23 Jun 85 02:49:29 GMT

Here I am again, defending a program I didn't even like that much.
Its the on-going Space-1999 debate (one which I hope will run and
run).  Most postings in this discussion have been quite sensible and
restrained although there has been one line of attack which I find
quite ludicrous.

I refer, of course, to the "scientific" aspects of the show. All
these discussions about "what would really happen if the moon
blasted out of orbit". Now, I have nothing against such calculations
and even find them interesting but.... lets "get real" (or rather,
unreal) about this topic.

Of the "popular" SF tv series, I cannot think of one which abides by
known scientific laws. The galactic voids of endless space require
(at least) the "invention" of a warp drive capability.  We must get
the show on the road, you know! So perhaps we can't hope to have a
"realistic" show; we NEED the pseudo-science; and we can even enjoy
the pseudo-science. Anybody who has read "The Best Of Trek"
paperbacks (and, if any of U ST fans haven't, stop reading this, go
down to your nearest bookshop and BUY them... it's o.k., I'll wait
for you)

(Ah, good, you're back!) and enjoyed the discussions on the
pseudo-science of ST will know what I mean.

The only (at least, the best) grounds for criticising SF-on-TV must
lie in the stories and characters and situations themselves. Here, I
suspect, Space-1999 does fall down -- certainly in the awful second
season with Maya (this is not because of Maya, I add). Mind you, as
has been pointed out in other postings on this subject, the reason
for Maya's addition is pretty obvious. I don't think we have to
*search* for a similar character in a "similar" series, do we?

I mean, on the grounds of "science", we can rip Star Wars and
Battlestar Galactica to shreads. Here we have space vehicles which
look like supersonic fighters and fly like them too and have really
exciting (now very boring )space dog-fights. All very pretty, but
hardly accurate. At least, the Eagles *looked* like spacecraft (even
if there was an unlimited supply of them).

I have noticed that it tends to be British posters (such as myself)
who are defending Space-1999 and mostly Americans who are attacking
it. Well, I predict if this goes on, we will witness a European
Battlestar Galactica back-lash.  Here is a clear contender for the
*worst* SF-on-TV, *ever*. So, I leave it up to my companions on this
side of the pond to work up an attack on B-G; that is, if they ever
had the bad taste to watch that garbage!

A disclaimer : my view of the American view of B-G is based on
"Starlog" magazine. According to that rag, B-G was the best thing
*ever* and loved by all. So maybe some of you good-guys in the
states would like to let us Europeans know what the true feelings re
B-G were.

I'll get out of your way now; thanks for listening.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Continuity errors (1999)
Date: 21 Jun 85 20:54:23 GMT

From: Andy T. (thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP)
>       Does anyone out there look out for little continuity errors?
> I spotted several in 1999. Koenig's space suit collar in BREAKAWAY
> changes from smooth to ringed before he crashes over beacon Delta
> for instance, and Carter's visor falls open in SPACE WARP!

The first is a "little continuity error" and I can't claim to have
ever noticed it, but the second is a big mistake and has a funny
story to go with it, as told by Nick Tate (Alan Carter) one year at
the Space: 1999 Alliance con.  When the visor came open during the
take, Nick pointed out the problem to the director thinking that
they would redo the scene.  The director said something along the
lines of "Oh, no one will notice", and used it anyway.  Of course,
sf fans being like we are, most everyone notices it right away.
With that kind of attitude from the people in charge, is it any
wonder the show had problems?

                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

P.S. This year's Alliance con is in Washington D.C. in July, if
anyone is interested.

------------------------------

From: sw1c!ucoelm@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it
Date: 20 Jun 85 01:19:41 GMT

>> Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in
>> Battlestar pathetica ?
>> -- Ian W Moor
>
> Quite true.  I was watching with a group of highly-amused friends
> when we heard:
> "Captain, the alien ship is within 10 microns of us!"
> One of us immedieately cried,
> "Nobody inhale!"
>
> Betsy Perry

Funny enough, I also said the same thing the first time I heard it.
10 MICRONS??? Their long range sensor must be a micrometer. However,
after watching several episodes I realized that a micron must be a
unit of time. They were simply estimating the enemy's distance from
them in time units based upon each other's velocity. I finally
figured out that a micron was approximately equal to one second
earth time.

However, I was never able to figure out how much earth time was in
one of their centon's (sp?). I cracked up during one episode when a
character who was not part of the "rag-tag space fleet" was
encountered and asked the magic question (paraphrased) "What the
hell is a centon?"  I still didn't hear a satisfactory answer, if I
heard one at all.  Any comments? Need I ask? :-)

                                        Lee Morehead
                                Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.
                                ...!ihnp4!sw1c!ucoelm

------------------------------

From: calmasd!cjn@topaz.arpa (Cheryl Nemeth)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry.
Date: 22 Jun 85 03:51:24 GMT

Which ST articles were banned in Texas?

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers
Date: 20 Jun 85 15:09:26 GMT

Ken Moreau wants someone to say something about spoilers because he
enjoys a book more the second time through than the first.  My two
cents' worth:

I think there is a difference between enjoying a story and enjoying
a book.  The nervous tension of "What is going to happen next?" that
Ken had trouble with is part of my enjoyment of a story.  The story
is happening for me for the first time and the doubt and wonder of
seeing it all is dependent on not knowing what the end will be.  One
can identify in whole or in part with the characters of the story as
it unfolds.

Of course, as you say, when you are entirely wrapped up in the
story, it is harder to appreciate the book: the prose style, the
themes, subtleties, etc.  This is why a second (or Nth) reading of a
worthwhile book can be just as rewarding as the first (at least for
people who are able to appreciate more than one literary level).

I suppose there are some people who have more all-encompassing
reading ability and can get a multitude of levels on the first pass.
I personally like having the maximum of both worlds: uncritical
gobbling of vicarious thrills first time through, then a more sedate
second pass (if the book warrants it, of course).

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jun 85 1120-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #230
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 230

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Story Request & SF Poll,
                  Films - Film Title Request,
                  Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) &
                          Deus Ex Machina

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Jun 85 19:38:40 EDT
From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Story title request.

A friend of mine is looking for a book title.  Perhaps you can help:

Thought I'd ask all you SciFi nuts about a book I've been trying to
(re)find for years.  I could swear the word 'belt' or 'timebelt' was
used someplace in the title. The story is about a guy who got a belt
for his birthday from a relative. The belt is supposed to allow him
to travel in time... While putting on the belt and doubtfully
looking it over, he gets a knock on his door.  He opens the door to
find 'himself' - who tells him that he'll understand later, comes in
and grabs something and leaves. So the guy decides to set the belt
back a few hours and try it out... he ends up back in time by a few
hours.  Somewhere along the line he must go back to his apartment.
He comes up to the door, hears someone inside, and it dawns on him.
He knocks- 'himself' answers - he explains to 'himself' that he'll
understand later and goes and gets something in the apartment and
leaves.  Get the idea?  It was a very interesting look at the
paradox of time travel and I'd really like to find it again. I know
it sounds kind of corny with my description - but it's really very
good... The guy starts running into 'himself' all over the place -
as an old man, middle-aged... He must keep reaching farther and
farther back into time to 'undo' things he does on each trip... and
can never be sure whether another 'him' has been there already. Can
anyone recall such a story and the title and/or author?

------------------------------

From: hpisla!jayj@topaz.arpa (Jay Johannes)
Subject: Re: SF Poll. "Best" 59 books (so far). Film at 11.
Date: 19 Jun 85 19:35:00 GMT

Hold on just a second, here. I have been reading over the list and
am wondering if everybody knows what "canonical" means? Webster
gives definitions of orthodox and simplest form. I take the word in
context to mean that the author wanted those stories that have set
the standards for the current state of science fiction. That is,
those stories that have broken new ground in either plot or style.

I am not going to argue about the QUALITY of the stories that were
listed.  Most are very good examples of the best authors. However,
many just cannot be classed as ground breaking. I especially
question those stories that have been published within the last 12
months. How can a new story be changing directions already?

A number of the books on the list can be traced back to earlier
works sometimes even to works by the same author.

One of the problems might be that some of the most innovative work
is done in short story format. The novel, which requires much more
extensive plot and character development, generally doesn't have the
same freedom to work with new directions.

I guess the offshoot is that I am not sure that asking for novels is
the best way of exploring this. I finish up with an apology for not
yet submitting my own list. The check is in the mail :-)

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: obscure film memory -- HELP!
Date: 24 Jun 85 21:30:09 GMT

Sorry to bother you with this; I'll try to keep it as short as
possible.  For years now I have had a vague memory of an SF movie;
whenever I seek help, no one seems to have heard of it. I now
realize the net is possibly the best chance I'll ever have of
finding someone who also remembers it.

Synopsis : scientist experimenting with radiation (ho,hum).
Radiation affects insects, causing them to grow to man-size. Earth
(or at least, island of *mad* scientist and lovely daughter) in
jeopardy! Help arrives in the form of a flying saucer carrying an
apparent human (male). He solves the problem; lovely daughter falls
for spaceman. Close of film, as spaceman leaves, she tells him of
her love. He reveals this is not his true form; to his race, she is
revolting. Exeunt.

Terrible, isn't it! I think the man was played by Michael Rennie --
but I could just be mixing this up with the magnificent "The Day The
Earth Stood Still". Answers, if any, by "mail" please; I'll post the
best answer (and credit the sender).

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
Department of Computing,
Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VII
Date: 21 Jun 85 18:33:34 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
                     PART VII: Thematic Drought
                          by Davis Tucker

The major themes of science fiction are pretty well understood by
most people who have read something other than "Dune" and "Stranger
In A Strange Land".  They usually break down into a few narrow
categories: self-realization, power and corruption, revenge, the
triumph of intellect over brute force, and the old standby of
fantasy - good against evil. Of all of these, it is safe to say that
fully 50% of all science fiction novels deal with self-realization,
or to lapse into estspeak, self-actualization. Wherein a character,
either through magic, or genetic modification, or superior altruism,
or sheer knowledge, becomes something greater than what he once was.
It's a part of the collective subconscious of science fiction, this
urge to know and read that man can become immortal, or superhumanly
strong, or wise without growing old.  In this, there is a common
bond with ancient literature of all cultures.  Usually (as in myths
and fairy tales and sagas, etc.) this self-actualization is placed
in the framework of good against evil.

The other themes are also present in such diverse works as The
Arabian Nights, The Mabinogoin, the Norse sagas, Greek myths, and
the many Irish folk tales.  For lack of a less pretentious word,
these are universal themes. We see these themes reflected in the
science fiction we read - "The Stars My Destination" is an excellent
revenge novel, and also involves a healthy dose of good vs. evil and
self-realization. The Foundation Trilogy is a textbook example of
the intellect over brute force theme (remember Salvor Hardin's
innumerable aphorisms?). "The Lord Of The Rings" is a good vs. evil
novel. "Dune" is a self-realization novel in the classic science
fiction tradition. This may seem like oversimplification, but on the
whole, these are fair assessments of these novels. Science fiction
is not known for its thematic subtlety.

But let us return to modern novel, starting with "Don Quixote De La
Mancha" and Dante's "Inferno", "Purgatorio", and "Paradiso". What
distinguishes the modern novel from its predecessors (such as the
Siegfried Legend, Tristan and Isolde, The Song Of Roland) is its
thematic leap into the modern world of shades of grey,
existentialism, its willingness to grapple with insanity and hatred
and love and lust from the inside, not the surface. Shakespeare was
fundamentally different in his world-view and his approach to human
personality than playwrights that preceded him by 50 years. The
Renaissance freed readers and writers from the thematic stranglehold
of previous times, and the flowering of literature as we know it
began again, after centuries of drought. The novels and short
stories of the 19th and 20th centuries have given us insight into
the worlds within us that have lain buried, strange themes of
degradation and desperation such as Dostoevsky's "Notes From The
Underground", Kafka's "The Trial", Orwell's "1984" and "Down And Out
In Paris And London", and Hugo's "Les Miserables". Self- discovery
instead of self-actualization (who you are, not what you can become)
such as Kerouac's "On The Road" or Salinger's "Catcher In The Rye".
Love stories such as "Dr. Zhivago" and "Anna Karenina". Tales of
obsession and murder and lust such as Nabokov's "Lolita", Capote's
"In Cold Blood", Jack Abbot's "In The Belly Of The Beast". Tragedies
and comedies galore.

Why is it that this freedom of themes, this wealth of subject
material, is not present in science fiction? When was the last time
you read a real-life, honest-to-god science fiction tragedy? Why is
it that nobody has written a truly great *love story* in science
fiction? Where is the human failure, the small glories, the defeats
of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of growing aware, the
acceptance that we all must come to in time, the heartache, the
anguish, the ecstasy? This is why so many science fiction novels
come across as cold-hearted and intellectual and juvenile. They
don't address themselves to what is fundamentally imperative when
one is writing about human beings, or aliens, or any kind of
consciousness that feels and thinks. It would be far better if more
authors of science fiction showed as much passion and interest in
their characters' lives as they do in their "universes" and
scientific extrapolation. Human nature is much more interesting than
particle physics, and it's a much richer lode of strangeness and
imagination. From the comic to the tragic, to the macabre and
bizarre to the beautiful and the sublime, there is a wealth of
thematic material that has been untouched by science fiction
writers. The genre needs more authors who understand that human
beings are the strangest things in our universe, both the most
predictable and unpredictable, who understand and embrace the
thematic freedom that science fiction has to offer without accepting
its self-imposed restrictions.

Artistic freedom that is not exercised is no freedom at all. The
thematic range of science fiction needs to be expanded, not just
into the range of mainstream fiction, but beyond it. As Rod Serling
would have put it, there are no bounds, there are no forbidden
areas, there are no obstacles except imagination. Science fiction
can branch out and grab the freedom that has always been available
to it, or it can withdraw even further into the shell of its own
making. Time will tell.

Well, that's just one man's opinion. Tune in next week for "THE
PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VIII: Politics And Science
Fiction".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 08:24 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Problems in SF

  THE PROBLEMS OF DAVIS TUCKER'S PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY

First off, as the person responsible for part 2 or your response,
I'm really rather sorry about asking you if you thought you were
Ghod - we all have off days and I guess that was one of mine. I'm
also disappointed that people on the net would stoop to sending
personal attacks to you rather than replies on the net where
everyone can read them. Come on folks, at least have the guts to
stand by what you say. Onward.

In my opinion, the reason you have drawn such heated response (which
may have been your intention to begin with - heated debate, that is)
is the attitude you seem to take in your messages. It struck me as
being arrogant to say the least. If your purpose in the Problems
With SF series was to get people to read other forms of literature,
you certainly went about it the wrong way. When you mercilessly
attack something near and dear to someone, you put them on the
defensive - something SF fans have been on (not as much lately) for
a good while. Had you begun by telling us that you also enjoyed
reading for fun and then had gone into persuasive arguments in
favor of broadening our reading horizons (something I'm entirely in
favor of - there's a lot of excellent work being done outside of SF
that deserves to be read) you might have had more success. Instead
we got, "That sucks, this doesn't, only an idiot would read that
crap." Of course, you didn't use those words but that was the
impression many people got from reading your messages.

In your A SHORT RESPONSE you tell us "I realize that what I say is
my opinion."  Right after that you say "You may think that Norman
Rockwell is vastly superior to Van Gogh, but you would be wrong."
You've just contradicted yourself (I doubt you'll agree with me,
though). If I like Rockwell better than Van Gogh does that mean I'm
wrong? No, it means my opinion is different from yours. All a critic
is is someone who has studied a certain subject significantly more
than the average person. Their opinion may be more learned than
mine, but mine is still valid! As you said, lighten up. You also
claim to support your opinions with logic and fact. Crap. You give
us your opinion of what is bad SF or bad fantasy and claim it is
logic? The only "fact" you used is a quote from Phillip K. Dick.
You're very proud of it, aren't you?  You joyfully tell us that the
"majority of responses have ignored the main point of each essay.
No one chose to argue with Phillip K. Dick..." What can I do? I
could give you a quote from me but you wouldn't accept it because my
opinion would be wrong (to you). Remember, regardless of his stature
in the field, P.K. Dick was giving his OPINION in the quote you
used!

Why do you assume all readers of science fiction believe that
everything they read is incredibly wonderful literary art? Just like
you, I read and enjoy "trash" novels. Novels that are fun to read. I
don't think Battlefield Earth was literary art, but it was a Hell of
lot of fun to read. This, I believe, is where You read for fun, but
you also read for enlightenment into the human condition or
whatever. I can get reality every day for free, I don't need to dish
out money at the bookstore for it too. (No, that doesn't mean I
don't read anything but "trash." I read a large number of books each
year and have read quite a few I'm sure you would approve of.
However, I don't feel it necessary to force others into my mold.)

In closing I'd like to mention something I learned when I took a
Shakespeare class a few years ago. These days, the Bard is
considered to be one of the greatest of writers. During his day, his
plays were considered to be trash.  No reputable library had copies
of them. They weren't literature then, they are now. Interesting. In
future generations, the books you have spent so much time touting
may be unknown and the books you have called trash may be considered
classics.

That's all for now.

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 14:47:06 PDT
Subject: deus ex machina

>And then of course, there is the deus ex machina. That beloved
>ending of science fiction, more used than anything. In mainstream
>fiction, it's tough to get away with that kind of ending (we don't
>believe in gods falling out of the sky anymore... sigh). Where the
>writer paints himself into the proverbial corner and voila! Here
>comes the zygomatic thundercruncher's unknown power in all its
>awesome majesty, which of course the villain didn't know anything
>about, since we all know that a villain couldn't see a deus ex
>machina if it came up and bit him, even when it's been telegraphed
>in screaming semaphore for fifty pages. It's either that, or write
>a sequel.

     The Good Guys and the Bad Guys have been fighting a terrible
war for years.  The Good Guys are winning, but the Baddies are
clearly going to fight on, costing countless lives on both sides.
     Happily, the Good Guys have invented The Wonder Weapon.  The
order is given by True Harry the Great, leader of the Good Guys, and
the terrible force of The Wonder Weapon is unleashed on two cities
of the Bad Guys.  Overwhelmed by this new force, they surrender at
once.
     Good Guys--U.S.A.         Bad Guys--Japan     Year--1945 A.D.

     Just thought I'd point out that deus ex machina shows up in
real life.  (Sadly, however, we've also been doing sequels as often
as possible.)

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jun 85 1141-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #231
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 231

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Adams & Daley & Heinlein &
                         Spider Robinson & Story Request Answered &
                         Oz Stories,
                 Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) &
                         How to Fix Bad Shows,
                 Miscellaneous - The Problems With SF &
                         Telling the Plot & Sturgeon's Law (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: garfield!jeff1@topaz.arpa (Jeff Sparkes)
Subject: Ford Prefect
Date: 19 Jun 85 12:36:33 GMT

        In Hitchhikers, it says that Ford Prefect had mistakenly
chosen his name to be "especially inconspicuous".  What is it about
the name that makes it overly conspicuous?  It's a little strange,
but not THAT strange.  Is this some British joke that I'm not aware
of?
                                Jeff Sparkes
                                garfield!jeff1

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Book Review: Brian Daley
Date: 24 Jun 85 20:24:07 GMT

        The Doomfarers of Coramonde - Brian Daley - 1977

If you have been looking for a good storyteller who does not get
bogged down in detail this book is for you.  Daley's story is well
written with a good vocabulary.  The wording is not quite as exotic
as Donaldson's words (the dictionary please...)  but offers some
intelligent stimulation.

The thing I liked most about the book was that it didn't follow the
back cover.  He does not go into boring background detail, but
rather tells us enough and goes on with the plot.  The sub-scheme
from the back cover is done with after the first hundred pages or so
(out of 344) and the story continues.

The setting is another world.  Magic is prevalent but secondary to
the plot.  The characters are unique and flavorful.  Basic plot:
throne usurped.  pretender seeks allies, regains crown, baddy
escapes for sequel - The Starfarers of Coramonde.

Problems: it doesn't keep you into it all the time, I put it down
and came back many times.  You can see where he plants the seeds.
The scenes of magical description are too brief and there aren't
enough of them.  Sometimes his lightness creeps in and he doesn't
seem to take his story serious enough.

                Moshe Eliovson
                ..{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1985 1754 PST
From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein

Someone asked a while back what was the "Glaroon" in a couple of
Robert Heinlein's stories.  I did not see an answer to this since.
I too am greatly puzzled by this reference and would appreciate
answers/minor pointers.

Has anybody seen the offbeat SF movie "A Brother From Another
Planet"?  It was released just last year.

Al

------------------------------

From: utai!wjr@topaz.arpa (William Rucklidge)
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson
Date: 19 Jun 85 20:19:31 GMT

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
>       Somebody out there asked about the book 'Night of Power'
> that is listed in the front of Melancholy Elephants.  This book is
> an example of changing the name of a book between production and
> publication, something that happens now and again.  'Night of
> Power' was originally to be called 'Race War', and Spider read the
> first chapter or so to a bunch of folks (me, for one) at the last
> WorldCon.  It sounds really good.  The reason the book is listed
> as if it were in print is because the publisher is going to have
> it on the shelves Real Soon Now.  We've just gotta be patient.
> Even if it is new Robinson.

        Well, _Night_of_Power_ has been out for a fair time here in
Canada.  It is a good story, well told. I picked my copy up near the
end of May, at Torque, at the Bakka table. (For those of you who
have never heard of Torque, it is Toronto's semi-occasional
'alternate' con. Attendance this year was about 90. Bakka is (I
believe) the oldest science fiction bookstore in North America
(their 13th birthday was last month).)

William Rucklidge
University of Toronto
UUCP    {ihnp4  utzoo   decwrl  uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr
CSNet   wjr@toronto
BITNET  wjr at utoronto

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Zugs
Date: 22 Jun 85 01:53:47 GMT

guzman@ttidcb.UUCP (Marc Guzman) writes:
>I am trying to find the title and author of an sf book I read as a
>kid. My memory is limited to :
>
>       . there were these very-hard-to-kill reptilian things
>         called zugs.
>
>       . and, the specially bred and raised killers. they were
>         brought up in +1G ?bubbles? to give them the necessary
>         strength and reactions to kill the zugs.
>
>       . set in the ?mid-distant? future.
>
>There might have been a political / social 'situation', but I
>wouldn't bet on that point.

This sounds like 'Beyond the Barrier' by Damon Knight.

                                R.Ramsay

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 05:51:57-PDT
From: wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jack Wickwire)
Subject: Oz Authorship

From: mccullough.pa@Xerox.ARPA
>Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton
>bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most
>were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and
>published under Baum's name.

Do you mean to say that credit for certain of the books belongs to
someone other than L. Frank Baum?  L. Frank Baum wrote (I think) 10
Oz books.  After he stopped writing them, more were written by,
first, Ruth Plumly Thompson and then a few more by at least one more
author.

Baum was credited on the covers of these books with the creation of
Oz and the basic characters. They were not published "under Baum's
name."

If someone is claiming that any of those first books were ghost
written then it is not a "little known fact", but a major
accusation. It came as news to a member of the Ozian fan club member
that I spoke to about this.  If you have more information than the
sketchy details you have given please submit something a little
meatier.

Baum also published other children's fantasy such as
_Queen_Xixi_of_Ix_ and _Dot_and_Trot_in_Merryland_. While Thompson's
books are enjoyable they lack the wonderful period narrative mixed
with social satire that made the Oz books of Baum's so much fun to
read.

I have not yet seen the movie but the only negative reviews that I
have been told of are comparing it to the loosely related musical
version. The new film sounds like it tries to capture the charm of
the books and not be _OVER_THE_RAINBOW:_PART_II_
                                                        .wIx.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 85 10:19 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek: 1**35

The "one to the 35th power" line is from "Court Martial," and is
uttered by Spock.  He's not under duress; he's explaining how much
he has turned up the gain on an audio sensor, so as to detect the
heartbeat of...well, any more would be a spoiler.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1985 10:26:30-EDT (Monday)
From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMV.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: 7 time 1 to the 35

Was actually 1 to the 1,000,000 power, and was spoken by Kirk in the
episode Courtmartial.  Since Kirk is somewhat distraught at the
time, his slip is understandable.

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: How to fix bad sci-fi
Date: 20 Jun 85 04:00:00 GMT

Now this is an interesting problem.  Several shows have come out
with reasonable acting, drama, comedy, effects, production and
REALLY STUPID SCRIPTS.  What I would like to know is how to
communicate to producers like Glen Larson et al how to fix their
series so they become classics instead of turkeys.

Here are some ideas

V: This is one of the easiest to fix.  When I watched the original 2
part mini-series, I thought, "Wow, this is great!"  Then suddenly,
in the second episode, they turned out to be lizards in human suits
coming to eat us and steal our water.

To me, the series would have been greatly improved if they had been
humans (cousins of us, as in Chariots of the Gods) come here to take
us as slaves.  There's only one commodity a highly advanced race
would travel light-years to take by force, and that's slaves.  It
certainly isn't water.

Also lose the girl "Elizabeth."

Galactica:
  Harder to fix, but vaguely reminiscent of the Saberhagen Berserker
stories.  Remember, at the start the Cylons were robots built by a
living race who turned on their masters and then went out to
subjugate and destroy life.  A good premise as any Berserker fan
will know.  In these stories, man is the only race aggressive enough
to defeat the unliving enemy.  So in Galactica, you could have had a
defeated society tricked by the cylons on a trek through the galaxy
for the only other known advanced civilization - a future Earth.

They would probably know where Earth is, but it might be a dozen
years away at superlight velocity, so there has been no commerce and
little communication.

Change the fleet into something more reasonable, include some full
sized colonizing ships that escaped the war, and you could get a
much better setting.

Space 1999:
  Hardest of all to fix, because you just can't buy a flying moon,
except perhaps with spindizzies, and they wouldn't be that out of
control.  The fact remains that if you are going to have an
interstellar adventure show, you have just got to have FTL drives.

Starlost:
  The premise was fine, the execution was terrible on this one.
There have been lots of good "lost ark in space" novels, so they
have no excuses.

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 22:48 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: The Problems with SF (yet again)

First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Tucker for doing that which
we, as human beings, do so much better than any creature on this
planet.  Trying to start an argument is such a human thing that I
would worry if it were not present everywhere I look.

I have nothing to add, really, to his arguments and certainly will
not endeavor to counter them.  After all, I don't care if he doesn't
like all the short stories he reads.  Heavens, I don't like all the
ones I read.  Some are downright weird, but well done (like _Venice
Drowned_) while others should be used in the bathroom (although at
least they get paid for their verbosity Mr. Tucker).  And then there
are the really good stories (I nominate _The Morphology of the
Kirkham Wreak_ again, read it!).  As with all things, we must take
the good with the bad.  There really is NO way to generate only
good, because this world is full of trite little beings who all like
different things.  Power to them, I say.  I know what I like and I
shall keep looking for it.  I recommend you do the same (that was a
BIG "you" by the way).

And let me remind all those that have been getting irate at Mr.
Tucker about two things:

1)  You are getting this free.

2) All that exists is atoms and empty space.  Everything else is
opinion.

Oh yeah, I want to nominate the last piece of _V: The Final Battle_
for the stupidest pull some special effects out of a hat for the
grand finale ending ever in the history of anything I have ever
seen.  Yuckola!  Whoever did that should be shot, or made to watch
the series over and over again.  Heck, s/he'd probably enjoy it.

Sorry about the flames, but everyone who wants a chance, gets one.
(FREEdom, that is one of our worship words!)

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Telling the Plot
Date: 22 Jun 85 13:48:59 GMT

I'm contending that a murder mystery spoiled by finding out that the
ballerina (or butler) did it is merely a piece of third rate
writing.  I don't find THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV spoiled because I now
know which brother killed Fyodor.  I don't even find Sayers' Wimsey
books spoiled because I know Whodunnit.

A book is as much about those "subtleties" (interplay of
characterization, for instance) as about what happens next.  I don't
find knowing the plot of a book spoils it anymore than knowing its
theme or mood.  (I just finished an enjoyable evening of rereading
O'Henry stories.  A "surprise" ending sometimes hits you even harder
when you know it's coming.)

Incidentally, I have to confess typically skimming the last page of
a new book before buying it.  (And so do many of my friends.)  I
started this back in the late 60s, as SF books began imitating New
Yorker short stories.  I don't like novels that end up along the
lines of "He was now Emperor of the Galaxy, but what did it all
mean?  Hadn't he been happier as a simple zort-herd.  Esmerella had
thought so, and now she was dead.  Phargamerp drank some more rooq
and fell asleep."  Since publishers aren't willing to flag these
books as "Pretentious/Depressing" on the back cover, the only
protection seems to be checking them out for myself ahead of time.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law
Date: 21 Jun 85 23:57:57 GMT

wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes:
>There have been references to Theodore Sturgeon recently, and also
>a few citations of the famous "Sturgeon's Law".
>
>What is the true wording of this famous phrase?
>
>Can anyone cite the actual text where this originated? Or was it of
>verbal origin, perhaps in a lecture or talk or in a conversation
>(maybe at a con somewhere?) and entered the SF folklore via
>reporting and repetition?

The way I heard it went something like this:

During a conversation at a party (con?) a rather obnoxious critic
said to Ted "90% of Science Fiction is crap.".  Ted's immediate
reply was the now famous "Of course. 90% of _everything_ is crap.".

Personally, I like Bradbury's defense better:

"A horrible little boy came up to me and said 'You know your in your
book _The Martian Chronicles?'.  I said 'Yes?'.  He said 'You know
where you talk about Diemos rising in the east?'.  I said 'Yes?' He
said 'No.' -- So I hit him."

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law
Date: 22 Jun 85 14:26:32 GMT

The way I heard it, Sturgeon's Law went, "90% of everything is
crud."  (Crap and shit can sometimes be useful, if only as manure.
Crud is by definition useless.)  If true, this represents an
interesting case of popular myth cacophemizing a saying.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: sun!jsc@topaz.arpa (James Carrington)
Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law
Date: 23 Jun 85 06:57:40 GMT

I hate to post something I can't substantiate right at the moment,
but I believe he said it at a world science fiction convention,
while on some panel or another of sf authors. I recall reading an
anecdote about it in one of I. Asimov's HUGO winners anthologies.

James Carrington                        SUN Microsystems
Associate Engineer                      2550 Garcia Ave. MS1-40
Workstation Division                    Mountain View CA 94043
Networking Department                   415-960-7438

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 24 June 1985, 09:44-EDT
From: James M. Turner <jmturn at LMI-CAPRICORN>
Subject: Sturgeon's Law

The story, as told to me:

There was a panel at a convention, that Ted Sturgeon was sitting on.
The title of the panel was something like "Quality SF". Suddenly,
this young fan in the audience starts reading passages from some
truely putrid stories. Pretty soon, everyone is rolling in the
aisles. Then he turns to Sturgeon and says, ``Sir, 90% of this stuff
is crap.''

Sturgeon paused for a moment, and replied, ``Son, 90% of
*everything* is crap.''

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jun 85 1203-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #232
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 232

Today's Topics:

           Books - Donaldson (4 msgs) & Rand & Footfall,
           Television - Banned Shows (2 msgs) &
                   Space: 1999 (2 msgs) & Star Trek,
           Miscellaneous - Time Control & Sturgeon's Law

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1985  10:26 EDT
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20A.ARPA>
Subject: Wounded Land Series...

Jim Gardner says:
> Second reason.  NOBODY in any branch of literature (that I have
> read) can match Donaldson for vileness.  Everyone else is a
> bush-leaguer compared to him: constantly despicable protagonists
> surrounded by even worse antagonists with just enough virtuous
> characters on the periphery to make the others seem worse in
> contrast.

Try Glen Cook's "Black Company" trilogy (The Black Company, Shadows
Linger, and The White Rose).  The Black Company of the title is a
mercenary company trying to survive and fulfill their contracts (in
that order).  They are working for one of the most evil types I have
run across in a long time.  Their job is to put down a rebellion.
Most things, however, are not what they seem (of course), but it
still takes until the third book of the trilogy to meet anyone who
might be accurately described as a "goodguy".

The series is VERY bleak, but it is good reading.  Unlike TC, it has
no great literary pretensions.  Instead it is a quality piece of
workmanship; a good read with at least a few well developed
characters.  I recommend it for anyone who is not easily depressed.

Dean F. Sutherland
(sutherland@Tartan.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 23 Jun 85 05:20:16 GMT

steven@luke.UUCP (Steven List) writes:
[Regarding the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever]
>...Reading them was more along the lines of fulfilling a commitment
>than pleasure.  I just had to do it and get it over with.  The odds
>are great that I will never buy another book by Donaldson again.

Hmm you ought to try his book of short stories.  Some are kind of
dull but I thought that at least two were really good, worth buying
the book.

(I can't remember the name. I lent it to someone a while back.)

Sean Casey
Department of Mathematics
University of Kentucky
UUCP:   {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean
ARPA:   ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ihuxn!res@topaz.arpa (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T Information Systems
From: - Indian Hill West; formerly)
Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From
Date: 23 Jun 85 22:31:01 GMT

In response to (much edited original posting):
> Like any good compulsive sf lover, I'll take a shot at almost
> anything that can be found in the science fiction/fantasy area of
> a bookstore

AHHHH -- a kindred soul!!!

> I have not read more than half of any book by Stephan R Donaldson.
> I've tried, but:
>
>   o I could not relate to the main character.
>   o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully
>     dims) had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure,
>     dumb ephithets.
>   o Opening any of the books at random, any paragraph I read was
>     more likely than not to be extremely badly written --
>     overwritten, wrong words used, clumsy, trying to do all the
>     work and not evoking anything.
>
> I can believe there is something of interest and value inside
> these books.  I just couldn't get through the surface for it.

It looks like I did a little better(?) than you -- I read two whole
volumes and part of the third before I gave up in disgust.  I found
the protagonist to be a first order jackass, the dialog to be
unconvincing, and the prose to be pretentious.  I pressed on with
the stories, however, in the hope that there would be some redeeming
value -- about a third of the way into the third volume it became
clear that NOTHING could save the story.  I guess I do not find
anti-heros entertaining or depressing story lines amusing.

                                        Rich Strebendt
                                        ...!ihnp4!iwsl6!res

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From
Date: 23 Jun 85 08:16:56 GMT

ddern@bbncch writes:
>Like any good compulsive sf lover, I'll take a shot at almost
>anything that can be found in the science fiction/fantasy area of a
>bookstore -- and where a book or author's reputation preceeds it,
>I'll give more than one try in many cases.
>
>I have not read more than half of any book by Stephan R Donaldson.
>I've tried, but:
>  o I could not relate to the main character.  I didn't care about
>    him.  He seemed to have the emotional subtlety and sense of a
>    deoderant commercial, to use the first shallow image to comes
>    to mind.  This is not a requisite criterion by my standards,
>    but, in the absense of empathy, there should be some implicit
>    point, conflict or interest to keep me connected.

Does one have to be a leper in order to have empathy with the guy?
I think not.  To me, the character shows just how much society can
ostracize people for what is essentially a misconception.
Furthermore, I think the idea of the main character being a leper
was the main reason why I got into this story so quickly.  If
someone had asked me what leprosy was, I wouldn't have been able to
give even a half decent answer (I wouldn't be surprised if most
people, beyond a few doctors, would fail at this too).  Leprosy
becomes more then just a disease in this story, it's a way of life
for Covenant.

>  o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully dims)
>    had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, dumb
>    ephithets.  "Helleshin!" comes to mind.  What ever happened to
>    "By the crimson bands of Cyttorak", etc?  [ Yes, I know -- this
>    is actually one of Dr. Strange's shellscripts ]

I don't remember "Helleshin!" at all (could you perhaps e-mail me
the page on which it occurs?), He did however say "Hellfire!" quite
often.

>  o Opening any of the books at random, any paragraph I read was
>    more likely than not to be extremely badly written --
>    overwritten, wrong words used, clumsy, trying to do all the
>    work and not evoking anything.

I'll concede this point.  Donaldson would be a nightmare to most
english teachers (my gripe: he over uses similes (like, as, as,
like, etc.)).  However, consider first that this is the first book
he has written and I wouldn't be surprised if many of todays best sf
writers also had bad writing styles when they first started.
Furthermore, even with the bad writing, he still moved me
tremendously with his story.  Of course, this may have to do with
not really caring as much about the mechanics of writing as about
what is being written.  I think others sometimes allow their demand
for good mechanics to destroy an otherwise pleasurable reading
experience.

>I think I've given the double trilogy a fair shot, and it's not my
>pot of tea.

I'm not going to force you to change your mind.  But that doesn't
mean I won't try to shoot down your criticism.

>Given the quantity of books, and their popularity in terms of
>sales, I should assume there is some merit and value.

Never assume.

> And then I think of the Gor books, and realize that popularity is
>no absolute guarantee.

You like Gor too?  :-)

>I can believe there is something of interest and value inside these
>books.  I just couldn't get through the surface for it.

How one comes out after reading Covenant may very well depend on how
one is feeling when first picks up the book.

Chris Andersen
tektronix!azure!chrisa

------------------------------

From: whuxlm!mag@topaz.arpa (Gray Michael A)
Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 25 Jun 85 01:44:50 GMT

> I find the book's preachiness somewhat easier to tolerate (i.e.
> skim over) than its sex scenes.  Rand's heroines find true love in
> what looks altogether too much like rape to an outside reader.
> (This is true not only of this
>
> Of Dagny's three lovers, the first shows his love by slapping her
> (when she suggests she could be more popular if she got poorer
> grades); the second tells her he despises her because she is
> willing to fall in with his lusts; and the third has her without
> asking her consent on the railroad track.

This comment I couldn't let pass -- it is a distortion of what Rand
wrote.  The first love's slapping is indeed an act of love.  One of
Rand's special talents is to cleverly show that good acts taken out
of context (as above) can look very odd.  The second lover had a
psychological problem at the time he told her he despised her.  Rand
makes this very clear.  In addition, Dagny knows at the time that he
really doesn't mean it, laughs at it, and straightens him out.
True, the third does not say, "Will you allow me to have sexual
intercourse with you?"  They simply exchange 200 pages of smoldering
glances, then HE walks into a railroad tunnel, SHE follows him, and
they make love, which they both clearly enjoy.  Hardly what is
suggested above.

Mike Gray

------------------------------

From: uottawa!erics@topaz.arpa (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: Footfall - new Niven and Pournelle
Date: 18 Jun 85 14:32:00 GMT

Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa> writes:
>I finished Footfall, the new book by Niven and Pournelle, a couple
>of days ago. It's an alien-invasion-of-earth novel and quite well
>done. It's kind of...
>own complex society that differs from our in several ways. One of
>the few things that bothered me about the book was the aliens'
>assumption that their inbred customs would be the same as ours (the
>aliens idea of surrender, for example, is significantly different
>than ours). That's the only nit I have to pick with the novel.

Actually, it seems to me that we humans often assume that our
customs will be the same as thoses of others. It's a frequent cause
of misunderstanding.  Why shouldn't aliens be subject to the same
foibles? (Although it would be nice if they weren't).

Eric Smith
University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ont.
...utzoo!dciem!nrcaero!uottawa!erics

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 85 22:28:19 CDT
From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: banned episode inquiry

The Dallas TV station that showed daily Star Trek reruns was also
the carrier for 700 Club and a number of other "Christian
television" programs.  There were about 4 episodes which they
refused to show.  Two were "In the Wink of an Eye" (due to the
sexual connotations of the infamous "Kirk pulling his boot on after
a commercial" scene) and "And the Children Shall Lead" (presumably
because of some Satanic interpretation).

Sorry I don't know what the other two are.  I heard about this in
college from Dallas friends, never having lived there myself.

        - Mike

------------------------------

Subject: ST ban in Texas
Date: 25 Jun 85 08:29:20 PDT (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        I don't believe that the ban is still in effect.  I do not
recall all of the banned episodes specifically, but do recall
exactly that the episode 'Bread and Circuses', the episode where the
Enterprise crew runs into (sic) a very Earth type planet with a
version of the Roman Empire.  Except that this is prox 20th century
Earth, and Rome never fell.  The episode was banned because the
culture on this planet had parallels to both the Romans, and to an
underground christian culture based upon it's own Christ figure.
        The powers that be stepped on the episode, apparently
because Earth is the only planet in the cosmos God is looking out
for.
                        Dave

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 23 Jun 85 07:23:27 GMT

thornton@westo.UUCP (znac468) writes:

>       Maya's shape changing ability is not original. Captain
>Garth, from STAR TREK's WHOM GODS DESTROY had a similar ability
>limited to humanoid forms.  If one show can get away with that, why
>did Maya come in for so much stick?
>                                       Andy T.

I remember in one episode Maya and Tony were stuck in an Eagle which
was running out of oxygen .  Our ever resourceful Maya saved the day
by turning into a *PLANT* of all things. (breathing *in* the CO2 and
breathing *out* O2) Somebody also pointed out that there is a
problem of mass conservation when she turns into a mouse and then a
10-foot alien.

But hey, don't get me wrong; I *liked* the show!  It was
entertaining when you don't pick over the scientific and technical
details.

Henry Chai
Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto
{watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!david@topaz.arpa (David Coffield)
Subject: Space 1999 & Startrek
Date: 25 Jun 85 08:05:01 GMT

Someone recently noted that the replacement of Eagle landers on
Space 1999 was not possible due to the fact that the base had very
finite resources. He also noted that the Enterprise could easily pop
in to a starbase for repairs. What puzzles me is that the 5 year
mission of the Enterprise was "to boldy go .." etc and therefore
there shouldn't be a starbase in sight if they were chartering
unknown territory. Also, how come they knew the name of every planet
they visited? Surely they wouldn't have had a name if no-one had
been there before.

Just a thought
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!david
DARPA: david%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: david@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Post: University of Lancaster,
Department of Computing,
Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4150

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 02:17:43 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: bloopers

Speaking of "microns"...

There is one Star Trek episode I remember where all the bridge
personnel were watching something on the main screen and Captain
Kirk gave the following order: "increase to one to the seventh
magnification."  I bet it didn't do a whole lot of good!

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

From: moncol!john@topaz.arpa (John Ruschmeyer)
Subject: Re: on controlling Time
Date: 23 Jun 85 17:05:17 GMT

>From: msp@ukc.UUCP (M.S.Parsons)
>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>(controlling your local time)?

Try the new Star Trek novel "Killing Time", by Dell Van Hise.

Name:           John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:        Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:          (201) 222-6600 x366
UUCP:           ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john
                ...!princeton!moncol!john
                ...!pesnta!moncol!john

------------------------------

To: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA
Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law
Date: 24 Jun 85 14:37:12 EDT (Mon)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>

>This is commonly quoted as "90% of *everything* is crap." However,
>I have heard that percentage vary from "90%" to "95%" up to "99%".
>(As a great truth, I lean toward the "99" being the more correct
>figure.  :-) (But here I am more interested in what Sturgeon really
>said.)

Just to add to breadth of variation (sorry, I don't have an answer),
Paul Dickson in his 1978 Dell Publishing book, The_Official_Rules,
cites the law as "90 percent of everything is crud."  He goes on to
  add:

    This law is widely quoted--from "The Washington Post" to
  "Harper's"--with the percentages varying from 90 to 99 percent and
  the last word variously "crud" or "crap."

I know this doesn't help, but it's an interesting question.

                                       Burgess Allison
                                       <allison@mitre>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Jun 85 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #233
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 26 Jun 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 233

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & Ellison & The Oz Canon,
              Television - SF on TV,
              Miscellaneous - Controlling Time (4 msgs) &
                      Spoilers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: Ford Prefect
Date: 25 Jun 85 15:20:40 GMT

>         In Hitchhikers, it says that Ford Prefect had mistakenly
> chosen his name to be "especially inconspicuous".  What is it
> about the name that makes it overly conpicuous?
>
>                               Jeff Sparkes

The Ford Prefect was apparently a hideously popular auto marketed by
the Ford Motor Company in Great Britain.  I'm not sure where I heard
this, but it may have been the interview with Douglas Adams in a
recent MacWorld magazine.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept,
Painter Hall 3.28,
Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712
barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR
Date: 25 Jun 85 16:55:25 GMT

>A few people have mentioned the legal bruhaha about the film THE
>TERMINATOR and the payment that Ellison received on copyright
>infringement grounds for similarities to the two Outer Limits
>episodes that Ellison wrote.  I haven't seen much in the way of
>opinion about the situation.  I want to express an opinion.  I
>think it stinks.  ...  Then Ellison and Bova wrote a story called
>"Brillo" about how a human is better than a robot to act as a
>policeman.  In some ways it reused ideas from Asimov and others,
>but nobody cared because it was a different approach to some of
>Asimov's ideas.  A TV network considered adapting "Brillo" into a
>series or a TV movie or something but the project never got off the
>ground.  That same network did do a series on the concept that a
>robot policeman would have to overcome initial prejudice, but would
>be a good thing.  It is highly profitable to win a suit against a
>network and Ellison and Bova sued.  They apparently demonstrated
>that "Brillo" inspired the concept of FUTURE COP and laid claim to
>ownership of the idea of a robot policeman.  They must have had a
>darn good lawyer but they won that one.  Science fiction fans
>everywhere applauded that a couple science fiction writers had won
>a suit against a big, bad corporation.  ....  My impression is that
>Ellison is just a parasite who claims to be disgusted at how the
>film industry does not meet his high science fiction standards, yet
>when they try to play by the same rules that we expect from science
>fiction writers, he is right in there with his lawyer trying to
>make a fast buck.  Anyone else out there have thoughts on this.

        Sure do. I'm unfamiliar with the TERMINATOR matter,and don't
know if Ellison had good grounds for claiming plagiarism. But
"Brillo" was open-and-shut. "Future Cop" was an outright steal of
Ellison's and Bova's "Brillo" script. If you think a plagiarism suit
is winnable in court just by having a "good lawyer", you ought to
look into the "Brillo" case, and the laws on plagiarism generally, a
bit more thoroughly. It's very tough to win a plagiarism case, but
Ellison had them dead to rights.  You might keep in mind that ABC
and Paramount had some pretty good lawyers, too.
        It's easy to sue someone, and even winning such a suit
proves nothing if it's settled out of court, since the defendant may
have reasons to want to settle with you even if they're not guilty.
But to win such a case *in court*, as Ellison and Bova did with
"Brillo", against a team of lawyers from two large corporations, is
pretty damn conclusive.

                      Kenn Barry
                      NASA-Ames Research Center
                      Moffett Field, CA
USENET:          {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 07:45:24-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Wherever you go, there you are.)
Subject: The Oz canon and the film

> ...credit is given to Baum, as it is declared that the movie
> "Return to Oz" is based on /The Land of Oz/ and /Tik-Tok of Oz/.
> (At least it so declares in the movie ads.  I have not inspected
> the book.)

Actually, the film credits say /The Land of Oz/ and /Ozma of Oz/.
the plot of the film follows TLoO fairly closely, with only touches
from OoO.  If you are a Baum fan, GO SEE THE FILM.  It's delightful;
the Disney people did a very good job of capturing the feeling of Oz
as envisaged by Baum, with the characters modeled after the
drawings by John R. Neill, who did all the Baum books except the
first one.  Don't take VERY small children to see it - there are a
couple of rather intense moments.

Baum, who was called the Royal Historian of Oz, wrote 14 Oz books:

 1.  The Wonderful Wizard of Oz  (reissued as The Wizard of Oz)
 2.  The Marvelous Land of Oz  (reissued as The Land of Oz)
 3.  Ozma of Oz
 4.  Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz
 5.  The Road to Oz
 6.  The Emerald City of Oz
 7.  The Patchwork Girl of Oz
 8.  Tik-Tok of Oz
 9.  The Scarecrow of Oz
10.  Rinkitink in Oz
11.  The Lost Princess of Oz
12.  The Tin Woodman of Oz
13.  The Magic of Oz
14.  Glinda of Oz

Ruth Plumly Thompson, who I believe was Baum's daughter, wrote 19
more:

15.  The Royal Book of Oz
16.  Kabumpo in Oz
17.  The Cowardly Lion of Oz
18.  Grampa in Oz
19.  The Lost King of Oz
20.  The Hungry Tiger of Oz
21.  The Gnome King of Oz  (Baum, never a scholar, spelled it 'Nome'!)
22.  The Giant Horse of Oz
23.  Jack Pumpkinhead of Oz
24.  The Yellow Knight of Oz
25.  Pirates in Oz
26.  The Purple Prince of Oz
27.  Ojo in Oz
28.  Speedy in Oz
29.  The Wishing Horse of Oz
30.  Captain Salt in Oz
31.  Handy Mandy in Oz
32.  The Silver Princess in Oz
33.  Ozoplaning with the Wizard of Oz

John R. Neill, who had illustrated Baum's works, did three:

34.  The Wonder City of Oz
35.  Scalawagons of Oz
36.  Lucky Bucky in Oz

Jack Snow, about whom I know nothing, did two:

37.  The Magical Mimics in Oz
38.  The Shaggy Man of Oz

Rachel R. Cosgrove did one:

39.  The Hidden Valley of Oz

Finally, Eloise Jarvis McGraw and Lauren McGraw Wagner did one:

40.  Merry Go Round in Oz

The titles, naming various characters as they do, belie the fact
that many of the characters, including Tik-Tok, Ozma, and Jack
Pumpkinhead, were introduced in TLoO.

The Oz canon, if it may be called such, is thus set at 40 books.
Baum also wrote a stage play about Oz, which was produced to rave
reviews, and several silent screenplays, which were filmed by his
own production company.  The Disney Studios bought the film rights
to Baum's books, excepting only the first, which was already owned
by MGM.  Disney actually started production of a musical called "The
Rainbow Land of Oz" in the '50s, but Walt himself stopped it when he
realised that it wasn't even going to approach the appeal of the
Judy Garland film.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

UUCP:  { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }
       !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder
ARPA:  binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 19:09:08 EDT
From: John f. Hardesty <jhardest@BBNCCT.ARPA>
Subject: SCIFI & TV

You know that all this nitpicking with SPACE:1999 and Battlestar
Galactia every body has forgotten that TV shows don't represent
reality but what Hollywood wants it to.  Really, in all seriousness,
SPACE:1999 & Battlestar Galactia was not all that bad for
entertainment sakes - the show is good enough to waste an hour of
someone's leisure time.  I mean , in Star Wars a lot of the stuff
was a bit too unbelieveable but did people really care.  I mean they
enjoyed the movies.

I have a bit of trivia for somebody - What were the two pilot only
shows that Gene Roddenberry came up with and what was the other
series that he came up with that was reformatted into a slightly
different format.

        Here are the clues -  For the two pilots only

One was science fiction about a advanced race watching over us (Very
ambigious clue)

The other was more occult oriented.

The short lived series was about present day man in the future (NOT
Buck Rogers).

        Can anybody name them all.

        Would anybody care to comment on the current (last season)
science fiction series - V - .
                                John Hardesty
                                jhardest@BBNCCT

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 85 12:53:17 PDT (Monday)
From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time

Mike Parsons(ukc!msp@topaz.arpa) asks:
>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>(controlling your local time)?

I remember a book from a few years back called "Planet of Treason"
that dealt with time control.  In this book, a tribe of
super-philosophers developed the ability to control one's rate of
flow through time.  Using this ability, one could live a day in an
hour, or vice versa, but couldn't jump through time, or go backwards
either.  This control could also be extended to other objects,
including other people.

By the way, has anybody else read "Planet of Treason"?  Anybody
remember who it's by?  I read this quite a few years ago.  At that
time, I thought it was quite good.  I'd like to read it again if I
could find it.

-- Josh Susser
   <Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time
Date: 24 Jun 85 15:14:57 GMT

>>From: msp@ukc.UUCP (M.S.Parsons)
>>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>>(controlling your local time)?

One of the oddest premises for a novel I've ever read is Fred
Hoyle's "October the First is Too Late" (possibly "October the
Second is Too Late" -- it's been years since I read it).
Essentially, the premise is this (spoiler, spoiler, spoiler):
Earth's reality is being transmitted (like a TV transmission) from
somewhere out in space.  A deep space probe sent out by earth gets
in the way of the transmission and scrambles it.  Result: the
earth's reality goes out of synch.  Simultaneously, Greece is in
Homeric times, Mexico is somewhere in the 21st century, Russia is
baked glass (presumably after the sun goes nova), and so on.  Sounds
like a comedy, but it isn't, and I think it suits your request for
time control.

If you want a comedy about time control, there is "Where were you
last Pluterday?" (sorry, can't remember the author).  Pluterday is
the eighth day of the week, but only the rich people have access to
it.  This lets them take the day off, not worry about crowded
beaches, and so on.  A very strange book too, but a lot of fun.

The Pluterday concept is carried one step further in Dayworld, Phillip
Jose Farmer's newest novel (only out in hard cover as far as I know).
The premise is that overpopulation has grown so rampant that the
people of earth have been split into seven parts, each of which are
allowed out only one day of the week.  (The rest of the time they're
in suspended animation.)  Thus there are Tuesday people, Wednesday
people, and so on.  There are also criminals called Daybreakers who
don't go into suspended animation when they're supposed to.  Not
the usual sort of thing you think of for "time control", but still
a controlled time situation.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: ihuxn!res@topaz.arpa (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T Information Systems
From: - Indian Hill West; formerly)
Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time
Date: 24 Jun 85 22:09:47 GMT

>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>(controlling your local time)?

A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and
Everything" or something close to this (my library is at home,
though there are days I wish I kept it at my office !!!).  There was
a movie by the same name that was a fairly decent rendition of the
book.
                                        Rich Strebendt
                                        ...!ihnp4!iwsl6!res

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 85 09:32:12 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #228

Mike Parsons asked for some good stories about controlling time, as
opposed to simply time-travel.  "The Morphology of the Kirkham
Wreck", by {someone whose name I can't remember -- but the story has
recently been mentioned in this digest} is such a story.  The hero
is an otherwise normal 19th-century seaman, leader of a rescue crew,
who subconsciously manifests enormous control over the passage of
time in order to save the crewmen of a ship wrecked off the coast of
Maine.  He does such things as enormously slow the passage of time
to gain finer control over events, change past events (such as the
manufacturing of the ship's mast) to change the present, alter
people's past behavior ...  it's a really excellent story.  You can
find it in "Best SF of the Year #9" edited by Terry Carr.

                                        --Peter Alfke
                                          (now alfke.pasa@xerox)

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers (really, literary suspense)
Date: 25 Jun 85 20:13:15 GMT

moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
> To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who
> lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone
> manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it.  Otherwise the
> nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen
> seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out
> of it.
>   In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have
> the aliens landing and blowing away ever character you know about
> so far. . . .  the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost
> ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time through.

[ FlameThrower setTemp: low. ]

Y'know, I always like tension, suspense, and surprise in books.
This can work either way: not knowing what's going to happen (e.g.,
will the aliens land and blow away every character you know about so
far, which make for the suspense in the first hundred pages of Niven
and Pournelle's FOOTFALL), or having a pretty good idea what's going
to happen, and watching the writer tighten the noose (see Orson
Scott Card's ENDER'S GAME).

I find I like reading a story a second time more than I like
watching it a second time.  Thus, given my druthers (and sufficient
patience), I watch the movie before I read the book.

> For example, I just finished "To Reign In Hell".  Excellent job,
> SKZB.  But the instant that I finished the last page, I flipped
> back and started with the first page, to re-read the entire book
> so I could *ENJOY* it this time.  I do this with almost every book
> I read (except the ones that I didn't like for other reasons (such
> as boredom)).

[ FlameThrower setTemp: comfyWarm. ]

I'm trying to remember the last time I finished a book (for the
first time) and immediately turned back to page one and re-read it.
DAMIANO?  There are darned few books that can get me to do that; the
ones that can are terrific.

You could argue that you haven't really read a book until you've
read it at least twice.* In fact, I suspect some of you will.

(*Three times for LORD OF LIGHT.  Five?  This one was definitely a
"let's go to the video tape" and re-read right away book.)

(P.S.: Do the aliens land and blow away ever character you know
about so far in FOOTFALL?  Heh heh heh . . .)

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 85 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #234
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 27 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 234

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & Didion & Rand (2 msgs) &
                      End of Civilization Stories & 
                      Book Request &
                      Story Request Answered (2 msgs),
              Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Life Imitating Art & Sturgeon's Law

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Re: Ford Prefect
Date: 23 Jun 85 02:31:31 GMT

jeff1@garfield.UUCP (Jeff Sparkes) writes:
>        In Hitchhikers, it says that Ford Prefect had mistakenly
>chosen his name to be "especially inconspicuous".  What is it about
>the name that makes it overly conpicuous?  It's a little strange,
>but not THAT strange.  Is this some British joke that I'm not aware
>of?

        I took the joke to be that no name is "especially
inconspicuous" - i think that is amusing in itself. I mean, how
seriously can you take a book with statements like "the ship hung in
the sky in much the same way that bricks don't" and "the liquid
tasted almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea", and situations
in which the protagonist presses a mysterious button only to have
the button light up and say "please don't press this button again".
This is not material to be taken lightly!
        By the way i recommend this trilogy (of _four_ books!) to
all who find the following piece of dialogue amusing:

Alice: "..that's not what that word means!"
Humpty Dumpty: "Words mean what i say they mean - i pay them extra".

        (None of these quotations are exact - my books are at home -
but i hope i've captured the sense correctly... which reminds me of
another Carrolian twist - "take care of the sense and the sounds
will take care of themselves").

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

Date: Tue 25 Jun 85 14:57:58-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #229

> Second reason.  NOBODY in any branch of literature (that I have
> read) can match Donaldson for vileness.  Everyone else is a
> bush-leaguer compared to him: constantly despicable protagonists
> surrounded by even worse antagonists with just enough virtuous
> characters on the periphery to make the others seem worse in
> contrast.

(Recommendations, for those who like to read about vile characters.)

These things are hard to measure quantitatively, but I found Joan
Didion's characters (not SF: _A_Book_Of_Common_Prayer_, for one)
viler than Thomas Covenant.

Didion is more subtle than Donaldson.  Covenant was foul as an
adaptation to his leprosy; without it, without [terrestrial]
treatment of him as a leper, I think, he would have been a
reasonably normal person.  He expresses his nastiness in some fairly
blatant ways, like raping people and being depressed at the reader
for kilopages.  Didion's characters seem to be naturally horrible;
at least, they were foul *before* various nasty things happend to
them.

Even worse, reading Didion, you feel that her characters could be
living within a few blocks of you... (Well, that may be an inherent
advantage of mainstream Literature over SF: you know the setting
exists.  On the other talon, the ability to create an appropriate
setting is an advantage of SF.)

Finally, Didion's books are an order of magnitude shorter than the
Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, so those who only want to taste
foulness can read them.

Glen Cook's works -- the Dread Empire and Black Company series, and
_The_Swordbearer_ in particular -- have a more interesting contrast
between good and evil, fair and foul.  Both sides are pretty scuzzy,
both have their good points and their reasons (except for the
occasional elemental force).  They're better written and (like
almost everything) considerably shorter than Covenant.

Well, if this gets any longer, I'll have to send it to
FOULNESS-LOVERS rather than SF-LOVERS.

Enjoy, insofar as is possible.
   Bard

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR @ Hmmmm...I'm not sure)
Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 25 Jun 85 16:22:36 GMT

> book but also of THE FOUNTAINHEAD, Rand's SF novella, and her
> play.  It may

I thought I'd read every piece of fiction she ever wrote, but
perhaps I'm wrong.  Are you referring to ANTHEM?

Also, her point in the rough love-making is her creed that 'I live
my life for no one and ask no one to live for me.' (not an exact
quote).  I see this as excluding tenderness and giving of pleasure
to the other person; rather, it's taking--exactly what is seen in
THE FOUNTAINHEAD.
                                Jean Marie Diaz

------------------------------

From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz.arpa (sonntag)
Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
Date: 25 Jun 85 20:58:53 GMT

> Also, her point in the rough love-making is her creed that 'I live
> my life for no one and ask no one to live for me.' (not an exact
> quote).  I see this as excluding tenderness and giving of pleasure
> to the other person; rather, it's taking--exactly what is seen in
> THE FOUNTAINHEAD.

      Her creed (above) *doesn't* exclude tenderness and the giving
of pleasure to the other person.  People have been known to trade
pleasure for pleasure or to find pleasure *in* giving pleasure.  (to
use a trivial example: while I don't live my life for my SO, I *do*
enjoy rubbing her back, simply because I know she enjoys it so
much.)  This is certainly seen in 'Atlas Shrugged' and in 'The
Fountainhead' (except for the first time the protagonists got
together, of course.)
       One last thing: I really wouldn't call *any* of Ayn Rand's
works SF, even 'Anthym'.  Maybe something more like 'speculative
social fiction'.

Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 09:10:46-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: The End of Civilization as We Know It

        I have, in thinking of some of the books I have enjoyed over
the last few years, realized there is a small sub-genre that I seem
to enjoy.  It is the one where civilization is zapped (or at least
totally screwed up) by a non-alien occurrence.  So far I have read
Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and War Day.  I am currently reading
The Floating Dragon, and have enjoyed the first half of the book.
Does anyone else enjoy this kind of Speculative Fiction?

Brendan E. Boelke

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 21:55:41 pdt
From: jon@cit-vax (Jonathan P. Leech)
Subject: Book Request

    Someone was asking for the title of a book  featuring
time-belts.  One book meeting the description is 'The Man Who Folded
Himself' by (I think) David Gerrold.

Jon Leech
jon@cit-vax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 25 Jun 85 21:11:43-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Story Request

The story about the Timebelt which allowed the wearer to travel in
time sounds much like David Gerrold's The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself.
Good luck trying to find it.  I've seen two copies other than my own
(which I got as a de-shelved book from our local library).  I'm not
sure if it ever came out in paperback (jayembee?).  It is
definitely, however, worth a bit of a search.

Evan Kirshenbaum

ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI
UUCP: ...ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan

------------------------------

Date: 26 JUN 85 08:23-EST
From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re: Story title request.

>From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
>A friend of mine is looking for a book title.  Perhaps you can
>help:
>
>Thought I'd ask all you SciFi nuts about a book I've been trying to
>(re)find for years.  I could swear the word 'belt' or 'timebelt'
>was used someplace in the title. The story is about a guy who got a
>belt for his birthday from a relative. The belt is supposed to
>allow him to travel in time....

Your friend needs a little education: the term is "skiffy".  The
book is _The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself_ by David Gerrold, originally
published by Doubleday, and also distributed by the SFBC. I don't
know who published it in paperback.

Selden Ball
BITNET: SEB@CRNLNS
ARPA: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people for
submitting same or similar information:

Morris M. Keesan (keesan@bbncci)
Rodney Hoffman (Hoffman.ES@Xerox)
Bard Bloom (BARD@MIT-XX)
Peter Alfke Alfke.PASA@Xerox
Alan R. Katz (KATZ@USC-ISIF)
Don Woods (Woods.pa@Xerox)
Doug Monk (bro@rice)
Henry Vogel (henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay)
Andrew Sigel (sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay)
]

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: Space 1999 & Startrek
Date: 25 Jun 85 16:34:14 GMT

> Also, how come they knew the name of every planet they visited?
> Surely they wouldn't have had a name if no-one had been there
> before.

Well, I mean really... they don't have to be too clever to call a
planet Rigel-12.  (Like we'd be Sol-3.)  Probably the folks on
Rigel-12 called their planet something else, like Sid or
something...

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: ST ban in Texas
Date: 25 Jun 85 19:58:04 GMT

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
>       I don't believe that the ban is still in effect.  I do not
> recall all of the banned episodes specifically, but do recall
> exactly that the episode 'Bread and Circuses', ...  was banned
> because the culture on this planet had parallels to both the
> Romans, and to an underground christian culture based upon it's
> own Christ figure.
>       The powers that be stepped on the episode, apparently
> because Earth is the only planet in the cosmos God is looking out
> for.

No, the ban isn't still in effect. (or at least enforcement is very
lax. :-) I saw "Bread and Circuses" on Austin's ABC affiliate just
last week.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept,
Painter Hall 3.28,
Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712
barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 01:20:18-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Life imitates Art.

        I am posting the following for an off-net friend of mine:
Remember 'Shuttle Down' ?

                         ***START OF QUOTE***
UPI SCIENCE

NASA plans emergency landing site
for space shuttle on Pacific isle

By ANTHONY BOADLE
   SANTIAGO, Chile (UPI) _ When the space shuttle blasts off from
California early next year, it will have the world's loneliest
inhabited island as an emergency landing site if anything goes wrong
on takeoff.
   The military government has approved U.S. National Aeronautics
and Space Administration plans to extend the runway on Easter
Island, a tiny volcanic island in the South Pacific, and President
Augusto Pinochet is expected to give his approval soon.
   Military officials say the plan will bring Chile closer to the
United States. But the project has come under fire from Chileans who
fear it will damage the island's unique archaeological heritage.
   Critics claim the United States will turn the remote island into
a strategically placed military base that could drag Chile into the
forefront of superpower conflicts and make the country a sitting
duck in a nuclear war.
   Easter Island, Chile's only Polynesian possession, located some
2,000 miles off the South American coast, is one of the world's most
fantastic open-air museums.
   Massive stone heads carved out of volcanic stone by unknown
sculptors many centuries ago dot the barely inhabited island. The
mysterious 30-foot figures with long faces stand all around the
windswept island, looking out to sea.
   "The NASA plan is absurd. It's like building a dance floor in the
Natural History Museum," said Chilean historian Oscar Pinochet de la
Barra, one of the critics of the space shuttle landing project.
   Opposition leaders, complaining that the country has not been
fully informed about a project, which, they claim, will damage
national sovereignty, have demanded a referendum to put the issue to
the country.
   The United States plans to start launching space shuttles from
Vandenberg Air Force Base in Southern California next March.
Shuttles flying from Vandenberg will be able to fly in orbits that
cross the poles. Shuttles launched from Cape Canaveral can only go
into equatorial orbits.
   Polar orbits are required for weather and Earth resources
satellites and for certain kinds of military reconnaissance
spacecraft because a satellite flying over the poles overflies the
entire globe periodically.
   The Vandenberg launches, planned at four a year, require an
emergency landing site in the South Pacific in case of an engine
failure, and Easter Island is ideally positioned.
   U.S. Embassy officials in Santiago said the NASA project involves
lengthening the runway at Mataveri, the island's airport, by 1,420
feet to the 11,055 feet required for a shuttle landing and its
eventual piggy-back retrieval by a Boeing 747.
   In addition, the latest microwave landing aid system must be
installed, plus strong xenon landing lights, effectively upgrading
the airport's facilities and increasing its security.
   The nearest alternative airport is located 1,000 miles away in
Tahiti, officials said.
   NASA will foot the bill and has budgeted $11 million for the
island project. The funds have already been requested from Congress.
   At no cost to Chile, embassy officials say, Easter Island will be
decked out with the best equipment that any modern airport in the
world has. The airstrip extension will allow wide-bodied planes to
land there, thus boosting the tourist trade, they add.
   The embassy's science attache, Joel Cassman, dismissed charges of
possible ecological damage and said earth movements will not extend
beyond the airport's present perimeter. None of the mysterious stone
figures will be affected.
   "It might never be used. There hasn't been a single emergency
abort yet in the 18 space shuttle missions to date," Cassman said.
"But the program requires having a landing site that can be used at
a pinch."
   For shuttle launches over the Atlantic from Florida's Kennedy
Space Center, NASA has permission to use Dakar International Airport
in Senegal as an emergency landing site, with no inconvenience to
commercial air traffic there.
   NASA also has emergency landing options in Spain, on Okinawa in
the Pacific and in Hawaii.
   Fears voiced by Chilean critics that the mass influx of NASA
technicians might hurt the Polynesian cultural traditions of Easter
Island's 1,700 native inhabitants also appear to be unfounded.
   Cassman said the project will not involve any personnel stationed
permanently on the island and only half a dozen technicians would be
flown there for each shuttle launching.
   The unlikely event of an emergency landing would involve sending
some 500 technicians to recover the shuttle and fly it home.

                         ****END OF QUOTE****
                                        posted for Danny Burstein
                                        by:
                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei@cu20b

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 23:41:18 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Sturgeon's Law

And let us grieve, not only that the man himself is no longer around
to tell us the real story, but that he is no longer on this plane,
period.

My favourite quote of his is not the "law", but is really a symbol
-- an upper-case Q with an arrow through it, meaning, "Ask the Next
Question".  Those of us who met him were given a great gift.  The
field of Fiction (all of it!) has been left a greater one.

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 85 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #235
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 27 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 235

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & SF Magazines & Welsh Myths &
                    Sherlock Holmes & Kirkham Wreck,
            Films - The Black Cauldron (2 msgs),
            Television - V & Star Trek,
            Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (3 msgs) &
                    The Meaning of Canonical

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 22:48 MST
From: "Ronald B. Harvey" <rbh%pco@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Ford Prefect & SLaTfatF
To: garfield!jeff1@TOPAZ.ARPA (Jeff Sparkes)

A Ford Prefect is (or rather, was?) a model of car marketed by Ford
for those people between the Atlantic and the North Sea who drive on
the wrong side of the road.

What has always bugged me about Ford's name is that Zaphod knew it
right off... Of course, this can be explained away be using the
excuse that the audience would get confused if Ford had two names.
Then again, Tricia MacMillan (sp) had another name...

Has anyone noticed any discrepancies between British and American
versions of So Long and Thanks?  I just received my Pan paper
version of SLaTfatF, but I haven't previously read the American
version.

------------------------------

From: watnot!bfeir@topaz.arpa (bfeir)
Subject: Re: IASFM
Date: 25 Jun 85 22:34:49 GMT

> I really would like to keep up more with what's going on, and I'm
> on the verge of getting a subscription.  Does anyone out there
> have any opinions on the magazine?

Yes, I have an opinion.

IASFM is a fairly good magazine if you like SF stories. Often they
have previews of stories yet to be published, and occasionally they
have a story by the good Doctor himself. There is also a puzzle page
written by Martin Gardiner (of Scientific American fame) and a good
set of reviews.  Well worth subscribing to.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Hawk of May and trilogy
Date: 25 Jun 85 01:01:30 GMT

jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes:
>They take liberties with the mythos by creating Gwalchmai, the
>brother of Agravain, son of Lot, who becomes Arthur's best knight.

Wait a minute! This Gwalchmai (The Eagle) also is the hero of H.
Warner Munn's books, "Merlin's Godson" and "Merlin's Ring", except
that in these, he's not only Merlin's Godson, he's the son of a
Roman centurion who sailed west with Merlin, and wasn't even born
when Arthur was doing his bit! You must agree that the name is a bit
unusual, so where are these authors doing their research??  I'd like
to know where they got the name from, to produce two so completely
different people from the same name in the same set of mythos.

                                R. Ramsay

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 08:36:16 PDT
Subject: Sherlock Holmes stories

>After all, if you go and look in your bookstore again, you will
>find millions and millions of Sherlock Holmes stories not written
>by Arthur Canon Doyle. . .

     Arthur Conan Doyle did not write any Sherlock Holmes stories.
Doyle was a charlatan who tricked Dr. Watson and published the
accounts of Holmes' cases under his own name.
     But SF-Lovers is not the proper venue for that discussion.

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #228
Date: 26 Jun 85 18:10:31 GMT

>From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
> "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreck", by {someone whose name I
>can't remember -- but the story has recently been mentioned in this
>digest} is such a story.
>
>it's a really excellent story.  You can find it in "Best SF of the
>Year #9" edited by Terry Carr.

The story can also be found in _Wave Rider_, a collection of short
stories by the same author.  I can't remember the author's name
either (George R.R.  Martin sticks in my mind, but the book's at
home).  All the stories are excellent reading.  The general theme of
the book is man/woman and the sea.

------------------------------

From: watnot!bfeir@topaz.arpa (bfeir)
Subject: Re: The Black Cauldron
Date: 25 Jun 85 23:46:52 GMT

> From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
>      I dont claim to have specific knowledge of where Disney's
> writers are getting their plot, but to automatically assume that
> The Black Cauldron derives from Lloyd Alexanders' work is a little
> like saying that an earlier Disney opus 'The Sword in the Stone'
> is based on the film 'Camelot'.

    Actually, you are dead wrong.

    Disney has shown a short preview of the show on one of their
weekly shows. This was about 6 months ago, and at that time they
only had the rough drawings, so it wasn't much of a show. But even
so, it was definitely the adventures of Taran. It _is_ based on the
set of books by Lloyd Alexander, albeit it does not follow them
exactly; what movie does?

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: The Black Cauldron
Date: 27 Jun 85 02:37:33 GMT

By the way, the Lloyd Alexander books have been reissued (probably
due to the movie tie-in).

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept
(+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 1985 09:53:39-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: What an advanced race would come far to get...

> From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
> There's only one commodity a highly advanced race would travel
> light-years to take by force, and that's slaves.  It certainly
> isn't water.

I have to disagree.

1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the resources
to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one option open to
you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go whatever distance
it takes to get it!

2) Are slaves even very valuable to "a highly advanced race"? I
mean, at some point machine labor becomes cheaper and more efficient
than human labor; once a race has passed this point, human slaves
have little value.  But I guess one could argue that the above
refers only to physical labor, and thus human slaves might still
have value for other types of labor.  (What a nightmare: aliens
kidnap the entire human race and make accountants of us all!)

But I agree with your suggestions about improving "V." I too was
disappointed when the visitors turned out to be reptiles come to eat
us -- how corny!  Making them human-relatives come to make us slaves
would have been much less ridiculous, and much more interesting.

                               Regards,
                                         -- Jeff Rogers
                                            jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 12:02:59-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #231

> The "one to the 35th power" line is from "Court Martial," and is
> uttered by Spock.  He's not under duress; he's explaining how much
> he has turned up the gain on an audio sensor, so as to detect the
> heartbeat of...well, any more would be a spoiler.
>
> Was actually 1 to the 1,000,000 power, and was spoken by Kirk in
> the episode Courtmartial.  Since Kirk is somewhat distraught at
> the time, his slip is understandable.

(-8 NO!  It was actually spoken by Uhura, in Court Martial.  Not
only was she distraught at the time, she was possessed by an alien
from Andromeda -- one not especially good at mathematics, either.
8-)

Surely *someone* has that Star Trek book.  (I don't think there's
one in Boston, though...)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 85 10:35:53 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Latest Problems of SF
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.ARPA

Davis Tucker writes:
> Why is it that this freedom of themes, this wealth of subject
> material, is not present in science fiction? When was the last
> time you read a real-life, honest-to-god science fiction tragedy?
> Why is it that nobody has written a truly great *love story* in
> science fiction? Where is the human failure, the small glories,
> the defeats of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of
> growing aware, the acceptance that we all must come to in time,
> the heartache, the anguish, the ecstasy?

Come on now, don't tell me this kind of stuff is "not present".
Haven't you ever read any Harlan Ellison?  Almost everything he's
ever written concerns these human traits, and I think he treats them
very well.  Philip Dick's works, also, are mostly about these
"defeats...pain...acceptance...heartache...anguish"; he also quite
often brings in self-discovery, alienation, and insanity.

> It would be far better if more authors of science fiction showed
> as much passion and interest in their characters' lives as they do
> in their "universes" and scientific extrapolation.

Ellison and Dick both do so; John Varley cares deeply about his
characters while still maintaining his universes and extrapolation.
Bester's "The Demolished Man", which you mentioned, also creates
some very intriguing and realistic characters.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying; for any authors like those
I've mentioned there are a dozen James P. Hogans.  You shouldn't,
however, be so absolute.  Don't say that NO sf writers use modern
themes, fleshed-out characters, etc: this is obviously wrong.  Why
not say that FEW sf writers do?  When you use absolutes your points
are lost on me because I immediately disagree and start looking for
counterexamples.

If we're going to go back to the argument about "what is mainstream
literature, anyway", I would suspect that the proportional amounts
of thematic drought in sf and mainstream fiction (by which I mean
everything that shows up in the straight "Fiction" section of the
bookstore) are approximately equal.  I will not stoop to a thematic
analysis of Jackie Collins or Robert Ludlum short of opining that I
will take "Footfall" over "Hollywood Wives" with no reservations.

It seems to me that sf (and fantasy) usually present more
interesting settings and backgrounds than does mainstream fiction.
Granted, the world of Philadelphia cops or Russian newt farmers may
be fascinating, but there's a "sense of wonder" to sf worlds that
can (if done well) partially make up for deficiencies in theme and
characterization.

> Well, that's just one man's opinion.

Same here.
                                        --Peter Alfke
                                          alfke.pasa@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Jun 1985 15:06:59 EDT
From: <SORCEROR@LL.ARPA>
Subject: The Problems of Science Fiction Today

     THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VII has finally
prompted me to put in my two-cent's worth.  In this essay, I believe
that Davis Tucker captures the *essential* element which sets
Literature off from *most* SF and other genre entertainments;
serious and authentic treatment of the protagonists' emotional
lives. While the desire for self-realization may be a nearly
inevitable theme for fiction, in SF this often takes particularly
exotic and grandiose forms, and it usually results from some outside
agency, rather than the hero's or heroine's coming to better terms
with his or her *inner reality*.  The general popularity of this
genre over the last decade may reflect cultural changes which place
more value on individual competence and achievement ("excellence").
I hypothesize that the rare and unusual nature of the transformed
protagonist makes SF very appealing to people who have put a lot of
effort into esoteric scientific and technical specialties. Their
disdain for a full development of emotional issues in fiction may
arise from a life experience which hasn't emphasized the value of
their expression and exploration.  I think I hear echoes of this
attitude in the negative reactions to the "Thomas Covenant" series
which have been expressed in the Digest.  Personal growth over the
past year has led me to acknowledge that my affinity for both
science and SF has been, in part, a game I've played to avoid
dealing with my feelings.  Despite this "self-realization", I still
feel that both enterprises are valuable, and I do not reject either
one.  However, I am concerned that an intensive involvement with
these glamorous myths (e.g. Star Wars) is preventing many "fans"
from directing their efforts to achieve self- realization in real
life.  I would urge readers who feel threatened by the recent wave
of criticism to examine their reactions in the light of these
observations.

"Ray of Hope Department" - I was very impressed with David Brin's
"SunDiver" as a story which dealt with a character's emotional life
and inner growth.  Any novel which can handle these issues *along*
with fascinating hard science and sociological extrapolation is a
real winner, in my eyes. Comments, anyone?

                             Karl Heinemann
                             (SORCEROR at LL.ARPA)

------------------------------

Subject: Criticism of SF
Date: 26 Jun 85 15:38:59 EDT (Wed)
From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA

I think this whole issue has gotten out of hand, so I'm willing to
put in by two cents worth to further muddy the waters.

First, ever since this started, I have been racking my brains trying
to remember a quote in a literature class (Comedy and the Novel)
about the relationship between an author, a novel, and a reader.  I
believe it went something like this.  The author (composer?) writes
a novel (music work?) with an idea of how it should be read
(performed?).  However, the reader (performer? violin? both?) reads
(performs?) the novel in his/her own way (depending on whether
he/she is skilled, has practiced, knows the music well, etc.).  The
implication being that there has to be work at both ends, writer and
reader.  How much work depends on the type of work involved.
Another implication is that some works of music are written for a
violin, and if you try to play it on a flute it won't sound the
same.  (Any people know what it is I am fumbling about here?  If so,
I would appreciate knowing who said it and the context in which it
was said.  Thanks.)

John "Now what was that he said?" DeCarlo

------------------------------

Subject: Canonical ?
Date: 26 Jun 85 15:15:08 EDT (Wed)
From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA

Jay Johannes writes:
>Hold on just a second, here. I have been reading over the list and
>am wondering if everybody knows what "canonical" means? Webster
>gives definitions of orthodox and simplest form. I take the word in
>context to mean that the author wanted those stories that have set
>the standards for the current state of science fiction. That is,
>those stories that have broken new ground in either plot or style.

My response is "hold on just a second yourself!"  First of all, let
me cite my Random House dictionary definition of canonical:
"authorized; recognized; accepted" i.e., the list is supposed to
cover SF novels that are widely recognized and accepted as (at
least) good SF (whatever that means).  This is, presumably, as
opposed to someone just picking out their favorite books and calling
it The Nth Best Books.  If a *whole bunch* of people respond with
*their* favorites, those with a *lot* of votes might well have a
basis for being called "recognized; accepted" or "canonical".

Secondly, since when does orthodox and simplest form imply setting
new standards or breaking new ground?  To me it implies just the
opposite.

Thirdly, I agree that recent novels are much less likely to be
recognized as canonical because they haven't been around long enough
to qualify.

Fourthly, could anything coming from readers on this net *ever* be
considered canonical?  Would anyone *want* it to be so?

John "why is he so picky?" DeCarlo
 <jdecarlo@mitre>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 85 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #236
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 27 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 236

Today's Topics:

     Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & King & The Oz Books (4 msgs),
     Television - Star Trek & Space:1999 & Fixing TV Shows,
     Miscellaneous - Controlling Time (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@topaz.arpa (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From
Date: 26 Jun 85 03:36:10 GMT

One of the problems with the _Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant_ is that
Donaldson takes forever to develop his characters.  By the end of
the second of the 6 books, we are beginning to see what makes Thomas
Covenant tick.  Another problems is the foundation of the books
itself.  It is difficult to get the reader to "beleive" what he/she
is reading, when the main character in the book refuses to beleive
that it is real.  The time dilation are a bit much to handle, the
mechanic of bringing back dead characters, all are contrivances that
take a while to swallow.

I waded through all 6 books.  I actually looked forward to each one
coming out.  I also see that there could be more.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From
Date: 25 Jun 85 17:38:52 GMT

ddern@bbncch writes:

> o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully dims)
>    had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, dumb
>    ephithets.  "Helleshin!" comes to mind.  What ever happened to
>    "By the crimson bands of Cyttorak", etc?  [ Yes, I know -- this
>    is actually one of Dr. Strange's shellscripts ]

I thought the "helleshin" thing was pretty interesting -- wasn't
that used in the Cities In Flight books?  As a curse of vegan
origin?  Does it have any meaning in English, so was it just a word
the Donaldson picked up?
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 26 Jun 1985 09:56:25-PDT
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: "ROADWORK" by BACHMAN/KING

Review of "ROADWORK" by Richard Bachman/Stephen King.

     "ROADWORK" is the worst (in my opinion) of the 'Bachman' books.
It's not that the book is terrible, it's just slow and it really
doesn't end the way I would have thought.

     The story is about a worker at the towns big laundry, who
because of a new freeway is having to move out of his house.
"ROADWORK" follows the main character in his fight against the
'CITY'. This book is like "RAGE" in that the main character has
mental problems, the best thing about the book is the sections where
we follow this man's trip away from sanity.  Along the way our
'hero' loses his wife, his mind, discovers drugs and many other
things I won't list here. This is not an upbeat story ! A lot of
times I found myself thinking why is this guy being so stupid, a lot
of the bad things that happen to this guy are his own fault. I liked
the book, but it's just not up to King's normal standard. I give it
a 6 out of 10.

     In "ROADWORK" there is an pressure ironing/pressing machine
that the employees of the laundry call 'THE MANGLER', when I read
this I couldn't help but think about "NIGHT SHIFT".

     I wouldn't put this on any must read lists, but, if you're a
KING fan like myself it's worth the time. And, since this will be in
the 4-in-1 omnibus edition, you'll have it anyway if you want to
read the others.
                                                      Ken Cobb

------------------------------

Date: Thu 27 Jun 85 00:12:34-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Oz

> Baum, who was called the Royal Historian of Oz, wrote 14 Oz books:
>
>  1.  The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (reissued as The Wizard of Oz)...
>  40.  Merry Go Round in Oz

Thank you for excluding P.J. Farmer's _A_Barnstormer_In_Oz_, which
strongly does not deserve to be in the Oz canon.  On one talon,
Farmer based his book on the premise that _The_Wizard_of_Oz_ was
approximately true, but that all the rest of the books were stories
made up by Baum and Thompson and so on.  Then he made it SF, badly,
and a generic Philip Jose Farmer violence-and-sex story.  (Flame
repellant: It's been a while since I read it, and after I found out
what Farmer intended I didn't read very carefully.  Too, my
impressions of lust and blood may have been heightened, because I
didn't expect or want to find either one in an Oz book.  *Some*
things should be sacred...  ) Anyone want to send Farmer some water
from the Forbidden Fountain?

(Spoiler!  But you know nothing bad will happen anyways...)

But then, when I reread some of the Baum books recently, I found
them bloodier than I remembered.  In _Ozma_of_Oz_, Dorothy turns a
lot of Nomes into eggs (-8 O.K., yolkier rather than bloodier 8-).
In _Emerald_City_Of_Oz_, Ozma and the Scarecrow trick a horde of
Nomes, Whimsies, Phanfasms, and Growleywogs into drinking some water
of Oblivion, obliterating their memories and personality.  O.K.,
no-one died from these spells, but what's the practical difference
between those fates and death?  (Answer: ten-year-olds can't see
that there is no practical difference.)

And I can see why Farmer wanted to do a more realistic Oz.  Ozma was
acting rather stupid: virtually ignoring a massive invasion of Oz,
not thinking about it until the evening before.  Their council of
war (not-war, really) was impressively frustrating.  Any fantasy
gamer would have had a dozen suggestions, like filling in the tunnel
by the power of the Magic Belt (which she did *after* the invasion).
I'd like to see some more Oz books, keeping the charm and
inventiveness of the originals, with better-for-nominal-adults
characterization.  (That was never the point of the originals, of
course.)  Maybe it's possible.

Bard

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@topaz.arpa (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Oz books
Date: 25 Jun 85 17:27:07 GMT

Has anyone ever heard of an analysis of the Oz books in which
everything has political meaning?  Supposedly the scarecrow
represents farming interests, the tin man big industry which lacks a
heart, etc.  I saw a short newspaper article on it once long ago and
have never been able to find the idea further expanded.

                                --rick heli
                                (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick)

------------------------------

From: dcc1!unixcorn@topaz.arpa (math.c)
Subject: Re: Oz books
Date: 25 Jun 85 20:40:17 GMT

geacc022%timevx@cit-hamlet.arpa writes:
>> Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton
>> bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most
>> were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and
>> published under Baum's name.

>    My understanding was that L. Frank Baum wrote the original 14
>books, which were recently republished by Del Rey, and that others
>wrote more books after he died under their own names.  I have
>heard, but don't know for sure, that Del Rey is planning on
>republishing some of the books written by Ruth Plumly Stapleton
>(sp?).

  When L.Frank Baum died in 1919, Reilly and Lee (the publishers of
his books) decided to find another author who could continue the one
book a year cycle that was so profitable for them. Ruth Plumly
Thompson fit the bill perfectly, she had grown up on the OZ books,
was already an author of childrens books and she needed the money to
support her mother and invalid sister.  The first book she wrote was
published under Baum's and her name (to promote continuity) but was
all her own work. Later they used the phrase Founded on and
Continuing the Famous OZ Stories by L. Frank Baum.  She wrote 19
books in the series (5 more than Baum)

  Other OZ authors include John R. Neill (long time illustrator of
OZ books)
                  Jack Snow
                  Rachel R. Cosgrove
                  Eloise Jarvis McGraw and Lauren McGraw Wagner

Anyone out there have a copy of 'The Royal Book of OZ' they are
interested in selling?  I have a spare copy of the 'Hungry Tiger' to
trade.
             unixcorn  (alias m. gould)

------------------------------

To: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.arpa (Wherever you go, there you are.)
Subject: Re: The Oz canon and the film
Date: 27 Jun 85 02:30:22 PDT (Thu)
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-icsa>

Book 41: a few months ago, I saw a book named "A Barnstormer In Oz",
by Philip Jose Farmer (I think--it sounds right, since he's the
self-appointed chronicler/perpetuator of a number of "mythologies").
Anyone read it?

-jns

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343)
Subject: Re:STAR TREK
Date: 26 Jun 85 02:28:13 GMT

david@dcl-cs.UUCP (David Coffield) writes:
>Someone recently noted that the replacement of Eagle landers on
>Space 1999 was not possible due to the fact that the base had very
>finite resources. He also noted that the Enterprise could easily
>pop in to a starbase for repairs. What puzzles me is that the 5
>year mission of the Enterprise was "to boldy go .." etc and
>therefore there shouldn't be a starbase in sight if they were
>chartering unknown territory. Also, how come they knew the name of
>every planet they visited? Surely they wouldn't have had a name if
>no-one had been there before.

The 5 year mission refered to above is the length of the tour of
duty of the Enterprise.The Enterprise was assigned a quadrant to
patrol and explore as not all planets and star systems had been
explored in Federation space.So when the Enterprise was not on a
StarFleet assigned mission (eg:"A Taste Of Armagedon", "The
Enterprise Incident","The Trouble With Tribbles") then its prime
task was to explore and chart star systems that had not been visted
before.(Remember that the galaxy has about 100,000 million stars,
and if say federation space only covers 10%, then thats about 10,000
million stars to be explored and charted).  Therefore even when in
federation space they would be boldly chartering unknown territory
and still be near a starbase (I think there were about 20 of them).
        The reason that they knew the name of every planet that they
came to was that either the planet was a member of the federation or
that the planet's name was derived from the names of the star and
the position of the planet from the star,(Earth is SOL 3).If you
look at a good star catalogue you will find that there are a lot of
stars in it with name that were mentioned in Star Trek.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Space 1999
Date: 26 Jun 85 09:34:39 GMT

john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) writes:
>Captain Garth was only shown changing into human or human-like
>sentient forms. This is the distinction between him and Maya.  Maya
>was shown changing into everything from very non-human aliens to an
>orange tree. She could also change into beings of equally varying
>sizes.  As others have pointed out in this group, where does the
>excess energy go when she turns into a fly? By avoiding such
>drastic form changes, Garth is a much more plausible character.

        Not that much more plausible! Once you've made the leap of
accepting shape changing (with liberal applications of
pseudo-science) dissipation of mass is not that difficult to explain
away.  All you need is the explanation, I prefer the previous one
about projecting herself (Maya) into a fourth spacial dimension and
reforming herself to a pattern in a similar way to the Enterprise's
transporters. Any extra energy required being freely available in
this dimension.
        If you like this problem... What happens to the energy
produced from a body that has been hit by a phaser on disintegrate?
It must go somewhere. Should we treat 'disintegrate' as meaning
'vapourize' ? (This assumes that disintegrate converts mass into
energy).

        If a show was absolutely scientifically correct then it
surely must lose some of its appeal as science FICTION and become
more of an educational program. No travelling back in time or going
faster than light would be allowed so the show could be so limited
that it would soon bore people out of watching it.

        It is good that after nine years 1999 is still being
discussed.  It has attracted enough discussion and criticism to
warrant a net on its own or with other G.A. productions. This sounds
much like net.tv does it not? (Take a look to see what I mean).

                                        Andy T.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: a gauntlet accepted: fixes to 1999, BadActica
Date: 26 Jun 85 08:53:13 GMT

        A better fix for 1999 would to have stationed the base as
being on the Space Dock (one of the things blown up in BREAKAWAY).
This could have had a plot generating device fitted .
        Unfortunately the basic storyline , being totally
uncontrolable drifting through space would have needed to be
different. I liked it as it was. Anything smaller than a planetary
body would have been easily controlled. Star Trek's basic attraction
was the opposite, being totally in control and zooming about the
galaxy, which the fixes thus proposed on 1999 would have achieved.
        Chocolatebar Galaxitive needed more alien aliens, as did
every tv sci-fi show to date. Seriously can all aliens be expected
to speak English ,(with an American or English accent?). The last
series where they found Earth was much worse than 1999.
        A previous article proposed that 1999 was only being
defended over in Britain simply because it was British, possibly,
but I only defend things that I personaly like and I haven't liked
anything from America since Star Trek. A lot of people I know like
Badactica but none of them like the series of V.
        Buck Rogers was another series that deteriorated quickly,
but not to the extent of Badactica which seemed to use a library
plot routine as most of the cop series do.
        Barbara Bain's acting ability has been questioned. Yes she
can act when given a reasonable script and she regularly had facial
expressions in 1999 (e.g. when screaming in DEATHS OTHER DOMINION).
        More answers to any points raised will follow...
                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 07:08 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: re: controlling time

"The Girl, The Gold Watch, and Everything" by John D. MacDonald
deals with a watch that can stop time for all but the person holding
it.  Not exactly controlling time (the holder cannot speed it up or
make it run very slowly), but halting it at will isn't all that
shabby.
                                        Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong [DCS])
Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time
Date: 25 Jun 85 14:16:55 GMT

res@ihuxn.UUCP (Rich Strebendt) writes:
>>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>>(controlling your local time)?
>
>A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and
>Everything" or something close to this (my library is at home,
>though there are days I wish I kept it at my office !!!).  There
>was a movie by the same name that was a fairly decent rendition of
>the book.

there was a sequel to the movie too, with some appropriate title
that escapes me.  i watched them both at different times in the past
year when i wanted to turn my brain off for a while.  having never
read the book, i will have to take you word that it was reasonable
accurate.

Herb Chong...
UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}
       !watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jun 85 1015-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #237
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 28 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 237

Today's Topics:

         Books - Chalker & Footfall & The Flying Sorceror,
         Miscellaneous - Spoilers & The Problems of SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 85 18:10:27 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: _DOWNTIMING_THE_NIGHTSIDE_ and
Subject: _VENGEANCE_OF_THE_DANCING_GODS_ by Jack Chalker

Until recently, I was a great fan of Chalker.  I had read the WELL
OF SOULS series, AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER, and his DANCING
GODS books.  These three sets contain quite interesting and distinct
(though similar) ideas, and I thought he was the greatest thing
since buttered toast.  I have since read most of his other works,
and with the advent of DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE I have become quite
disheartened at the quality of some of his novels.

                      ***** MILD SPOILER *****

The WELL OF SOULS books brought forth many interesting ideas and
plot structures, which Chalker has since rehashed in almost all of
his other books.  It is understandable for a writer to use the same
theories on the universe, etc. in his other stories, but Chalker
reuses *plots*!  In many of his stories (EXILES AT THE WELL OF
SOULS, SOUL RIDER: EMPIRES OF FLUX AND ANCHOR, DANCERS IN THE
AFTERGLOW, A WAR OF SHADOWS, and DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE) a
previously strong, likable female character is transformed into some
weird sort of mutant sex-creature for no adequately explored reason.
In one or two books, such a thing would be no problem, but five
times seems a little ridiculous.

Though in DOWNTIMING he does not deal with any "Primal Equations"
(his most excessively reused idea), Chalker still came up with what
I think is a very bad theory of Time (perhaps I am biased; I think
all theories of time pale before the one in Hogan's THRICE UPON A
TIME).  It goes something like this: there is an actual "present"
and "past" but the future hasn't happened yet.  The past may be
altered, but the World will readjust upon the lines of least
resistance, so the relative future comes out as close to the same as
possible (said one of the characters: "Change something big, and you
end up with what you started with, but worse.").  The difference in
this theory is that when you go into the past, Nature assimilates
you.  This means that you are caused to fit in.  The Universe alters
you physically, and shifts the past so that you were, in fact, born
in that era.  Your mind, too, is assimilated, but this takes about
two weeks, giving you a chance to escape.  Because of this
assimilation, it is perfectly legal to go back in time and kill your
own father so that you were never born.  The person who actually
killed your father was not *you*, it was the person you were
assimilated to be; they had a birth and life history themselves, so
there was no paradox when the person who had "become" them was never
born.  In order that as little as possible is changed, Downtimers
usually wind up as low on the social scale as possible (women,
children, or handicapped, usually).

(One Unforgivable Sin: One of the characters asked why it was
impossible to go back in time to a point *after* your own birth.
The Answer: Basic Physics!  You can't exist twice in the same place.
I find it hard to believe that anyone would answer a question about
*TIME TRAVEL* of all things with "Basic Physics," especially since
it doesn't answer the question at all.  The atoms which make up your
body have been around since the dawn of time, so this "Basic
Physics" disallows *all* time travel!  Flame off.)

What I at first thought was an incredible plot was this: The Main
Character was rescued by a strange woman in an era some time before
his birth.  They met again farther back in time and were married and
had some kids.  The man went forward in time and became a woman (due
to Time Assimilation).  S/he then went back in time and married the
man (him/herself).  Then after having kids, etc.  the woman went
forward in time and rescued the man, thus completing the
double-interlaced loop.  This would have been the most incredible
thing ever, had it not already been done!  Id est, ALL YOU ZOMBIES
by Heinlein, 1959.

The main plot of DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE is a fairly standard one,
that of a "Time War," (the two sides are trying to cause each other
to never have existed).  This story has some interesting points
(such as the "possibles" presented when a Downtimer accidentally
kills Karl Marx *twice*, (the second "before" the first)), but it is
far from Chalker's best, and gets quite depressing.  Avoidance is
suggested.

                      ***** SPOILER OFF *****

However, just when I had decided that Chalker was a Traitor to the
Faith, VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS was released.  This book is
truly awesome, and (in my eyes) has justified whatever else he has
done wrong.  VENGEANCE is the third book in the series, the first two
being RIVER OF THE DANCING GODS and DEMONS OF THE DANCING GODS.

                ***** SPOILER WARNING (again) *****

For those of you unfamiliar with the series, it goes like this: In
the first book, a wizard from another world (Throckmorton P.
Ruddygore) mighty magical sword Irving) and Marge of the Faerie
(wings and all).

Husaquahr, the world in to which they are cast, is a strange one
indeed.  It is filled with the Faerie and other creatures of myth
and legend.  Magic runs rampant.  In the Beginning, when Husaquahr
was created, it was very raw; there were few natural laws, so the
great wizards got together to set down some more rules.  At first,
these were very basic, such as restrictions on magical power, etc.
but they eventually got out of hand.  The books of Rules came to
comprise several thousand volumes of laws such as

        "A Company shall be composed of no less than seven
        individuals, at least one of whom should not be completely
        trusted.
                                                   --XXXIV, 363,
        244(a)"
and
        "A percentage of all seats of magic shall be dark towers,
        said percentage to be not less than twenty percent of all
        such seats of power at any given time.  Practitioners of the
        Black Arts shall be given preference for these locations.
                                                  --IV, 203(b) & (c)"

These rules are not just decrees; they are actual laws of nature.
Barbarians cannot help going scantily clad in furs, and the Evil
cannot help leaving the Virtuous an opening, however tenuous, in
their fiendish plots.

VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS ("All epics must be at least trilogies.
--XVI, 103, 12(d)) deals with the return of an Old Enemy.  Esmillo
Boquillas, an evil wizard, had been stripped of his powers and
exiled to Earth where he would be harmless.  He wasn't.  Though he
could not cast spells to make trouble, he could develop them and
have others with the Talent cast them for him.  When his
ex-apprentice found a way to Earth, Ruddygore knew there would be
trouble.  The spells that Boquillas developed were quite formidable,
for rather than painstakingly calculating all of the variables and
side-effects by hand, he created them with a computer.  In his first
several months on Earth, Boquillas learned as much as he could about
computers, because he realized their potential, and that "Today's
machines don't come with WizardCalc."  He was exceptionally good
with the machines because, for all its mystery, Magic is only
mathematics.  And Boquillas was a *very* good wizard.

Joe, Marge, and some of their allies were sent to Earth to
assassinate Boquillas before he grew too powerful (he had already
become a TV Evangelist).  Among their companions was a mermaid, who
was normally useless on land, but...  Ruddygore cast a spell on her
which was inspired by a film he had seen while on vacation in
Chicago: while dry, she had legs.  A Masterstroke!  Once on Earth,
the company was joined by a Tinkerbellish Pixie from Brooklyn and a
depressed ex-exorcist, and eventually (punfully) saved both worlds
from Armageddon.

                      ***** SPOILER OFF *****

The DANCING GODS books are the third most amusing series I have ever
read (the first two being the HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE and MYTH
ADVENTURES), and I highly recommend them.  Chalker is quite obviously
capable of writing excellent books, so things like DOWNTIMING and A
WAR OF SHADOWS are hard to understand.  But I guess it is not
uncommon for authors to become fixated on certain plots or
situations (viz: Heinlein's Capable Man, and Asimov's robots (*what*
were they doing in FOUNDATION'S EDGE?!?)).  Despite a few dogs, most
of Chalker's book are very good, if similar.  He just needs to
expand a little from his previously covered topics.

                                           --Jamie
                                          jwz@cmu-cs-spice

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 12:57:32-PDT
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: Footfall's Travel Fithp

The _Footfall_ aliens could very well have made what seem to us to be
ignorant assumptions, such as assuming that we come in herd as they
do.  Is this going to be a mini-spoiler?

They did not evolve their own science (either physical or social).  
Rather, they "inherited" it (more details, more spoiler?) from another
race.  They did not really understand it as well as if they had
developed it themselves.
                                Andy Gideon of the Hacker Fithp
                                Gideon@SU-Score.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 12:57:32-PDT
From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon <A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA>
Subject: Footfall's Travel Fithp

A while back, this group was working on putting together a list of the
names used in _The_Flying_Sorcerers_.  Perhaps it is my own ignorance,
but I could not figure out a few of the Dreamer Fithp members.  In
fact, the only ones I was SURE of were Robert and Virginia.  (I could
guess "Speaker to Seafood", I think).  What about it?  Help?
                                Andy Gideon of the Hacker Fithp
                                Gideon@SU-Score.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 09:42 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Spoilers and Simple Courtesy

It seems that the concensus is in.  Some people hate to know the
ending, and some people don't mind.

This seems to present a simple solution, if you are going to tell
the plot then please include a warning ("spoiler" seems as good a
name as any, as long as it is understood).  If you don't mind
reading a "spoiler" then you are free to read it, but if you do not
like to read "spoilers" then you are free to skip it.

I believe no one's rights are infringed, and all should be happy.
The only person who can really gripe is the one who doesn't want to
put a spoiler warning on because it will wear out their poor little
fingers.

So what's the problem?  It seems to be merely common courtesy.
Perhaps we on this list can revitalize an ailing trait.

Please?

------------------------------

Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 18:21:48-EDT
From: Thomas  De Bellis <Sy.SLogin@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #230
To: druri!dht@TOPAZ.ARPA

Dear Davis,

  I have followed your `Problems of Science Fiction Today' with some
interest.  Recently however, you said something that surprised me
and I would be interested if you elaborated on it some more.  Here
is your phrase:

  ` But let us return to modern novel, starting with "Don Quixote De
    La Mancha" and Dante's "Inferno", "Purgatorio", and "Paradiso". '

I have been a student of Italian at Columbia University for the past
five years and a student of Spanish for the past three; I feel
uncomfortable about drawing such parallels between the two works.

  Consider the following facts: the date of the composition of `Don
Quixote de la Mancha' can be said to occur somewhere between roughly
1606 and 1615.  The composition of the Divine Comedy can easily be
placed at at least 300 years before that.  It is also easy to find
historical precedents for ideas in the Divine Comedy in previous
works by the author such as `La Vita Nuova' which dates from before
the turn of the century.  Specifically, I refer to the idea of `La
Donna Angelica'.

  While I might agree with that Don Quixote could be viewed as a
precursor to the modern novel, I don't think that the Divine Comedy
can be seen as such.  The work is an epic poem, the story of a
journey in the tradition of the Odyssey or the Aeneid.  Perhaps if
you have read it in translation, this may have escaped you, but in
Italian it is a poem (and one of the most beautiful ever written, I
might add).

  I can't see it as a modern novel any more than I can see the
Odyssey or the Aeneid as a modern novel.  It does not in any way
grapple with the modern world.  It explains the medieval and parts
of the classical world in terms of Catholic dogma.  Certainly, some
liberties are taken (most notably with the devils who take people's
souls before they are dead in the fifth Malebolge), but the work can
not be seen to have a

  `thematic leap into the modern world of shades of grey,
   existentialism, its willingness to grapple with insanity and
   hatred and love and lust from the inside, not the surface.'

Things are very black and white for Dante.  Either you are damned or
you're saved.  If you are damned, you're damned, pure and simple.
The fact that he sheds many a tear in the Inferno for damned souls
(the example of Paulo and Francesca comes to mind) is used to
underline the fact that Dante himself is not saved since the blessed
can not feel remorse for the fate of the damned.  It is in no way
indicative of a `modern world state of grey', it is indicative of a
fault of Dante that still remains to be purged.  Likewise, if you
are saved, then you're saved.  You may have to wait a long time in
Purgatory to get into Paradise, but you are still saved.  Consider
the green angels from Mary that come and guard the penitent souls in
the first part of Purgatory.  They may have been purging themselves,
but they were still saved.  What the characters in the three
canticles say and do is largely used to allegorically underline
their state of being saved or not.  Why they are saved or not is
purely God's decision; man is not permitted to know.  Thus, their
characters are never really developed and this explains the
transitory nature of most of the encounters with souls.

  As far as wealth of themes goes, that's shaky ground.  Certainly
the Divine Comedy contains much original material, but a good
portion of what Dante wrote can be directly traced to Virgil.
Virgil is more than just his fictitious guide; parts of the Divine
Comedy are right out of the Aeneid.  A perfect example of this is
the thirteenth canto of the Inferno where Dante breaks a branch of a
bush to speak to a soul inside.  This is obviously taken from Aeneid
III, 22-48 in several respects.  Other parts are based on older
classical writers, such as Ovid.

  It seems to me that if you want to talk about the modern novel, a
better selection might have been something by Boccaccio.  There, at
least, you don't have direct references to epic traditions.  The
Decameron still suffers from lack of character development, however
so perhaps it's better to wait a couple of hundred years for some of
Machiavelli's work.  Better still might be Manzoni's `I Promessi
Spossi', but I suspect that would be too late for the purposes of
your argument.

  So...  Please elaborate more on what you mean by the Divine Comedy
being an example of a modern novel.  I had always thought that the
work was more of a late epic poem.  I have read a lot of commentary
about the Divine Comedy but I don't remember ever having read that.
Then again, in the literature business, one should always be on the
look out for new ways of looking at things.  Hence, (good) science
fiction.
                                                -- Tom

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jun 85 1105-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #239
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 29 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 239

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Donaldson & SF Poll,
                 Television - Battlestar Galactica,
                 Miscellaneous - Quotations: Sturgeon and Others

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: garfield!jeff1@topaz.arpa (Jeff Sparkes)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series
Date: 26 Jun 85 18:38:38 GMT

        The name of the book is "Daughter of Regals".  Donaldson
says that some of the stories were written after the First
Chronicles, and the rest after the Second.  There is also a section
that was cut out of the Illearth War.  It tells the story of the
mission to Seareach by Korik, Hyrim and Shetra.  Apparently it was
left out because it was told from Korik's point of view and this
tended to support the belief that The Land was real.
        I haven't finished the book yet, but so far it's been good.
Except for the Covenant excerpt, it hasn't been overly verbose.
(Thank god!!)  It's worth picking up in paperback.

                                                Jeff Sparkes
                                                garfield!jeff1

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: SF Poll. Some SoapBoxing. "Best" 260 books. Heinlein Tops (so
Subject: far)
Date: 24 Jun 85 10:17:41 GMT

    Hello. I've been running the Poll for about a month now and i've
received a few (mostly mild) private flames and one (also mild)
public flame about various aspects of it. I'd like to respond to my
critics if i may.
    First, it was recently stated that i used the word "Canonical"
in the sense of "innovative" and, further, that few of the books on
the updates that i have posted so far are in fact innovative. I
quote:

>I take the word in context to mean that the author wanted those
>stories that have set the standards for the current state of
>science fiction. That is, those stories that have broken new ground
>in either plot or style.
>       (Jay Johannes)

That this was not my intention is evident from my first posting:

>What i propose is an update to bring the Canon up to date. Please
>send me **mail** if you have a group of books to recommend; i shall
>collate the books with the highest number of votes

and from my second:

>this is supposed to be a "canonical" list, that is a list which
>contains books which an appreciable subset of you out there think
>*SHOULD* be read). The reason why they should be read is immaterial
>- excellent story, first use of some interesting idea, creator of a
>sub-genre, superlative writing, etc. Ideally a canonical list of SF
>books should contain all books which are in "most" people's
>collection (or memory for that matter).

I think that this is the only reasonable way to construct such a
list - especially in this news group! - i'll return to this point
later.

The second point was a variation of the first with an added value
judgment. The following quote (it was private mail so i'll leave it
anonymous) is fairly representative of that point of view:

>i think the problem with your list is right there in your last
>message: only 40 people responding, yet 500 books recommended.
>when you get that many, you're talking about a favorite book list,
>not a "canonical" books list.  i think hogans books are great, for
>example, but i'd never consider mentioning them as important works
>of SF.  i see maybe one or two books in your list that i'd consider
>required reading.  i see a lot more that are complete trash and
>worth avoiding.  (funny about the suggestion for negative votes:
>the exact same though came to me: "That book?  I'd like to vote
>AGAINST that one."

The first point is just the definition of "Canonical" again but the
suggestion of negative votes is new. As i pointed out in a reply to
a public version of the same suggestion i don't think that allowing
negative votes is a good idea. First, i thought that it might lead
to acrimony and that the net effect on a book's votes would be the
same anyway and second i thought that if someone went to all the
trouble of sending me a book's title then it should appear somewhere
in the final list (although if few others liked it would be low
down).

The last point i'd like to touch on has some bearing on the recent
discussion on the perception of quality in literature. Again the
quotation is from a representative private letter and so anonymous:

>i guess when i saw your request, i figured there were about three
>books i'd consider that important.  (not that i ever figured what
>those three were, but i'll try that at the end of this note.)  now
>what's it going to mean if i make my vote for three truly
>important books when 40 people have already voted for well over 12
>books a piece?

My stand on this is basically that the only reasonable way to define
"quality" in literature (or any artistic endeavor) and avoid (or at
least minimize) discord is to say something is good iff a large
number of people say it's good. That this is unsatisfying
aesthetically i will immediately grant as, for example, it makes
"Three's Company" or whatever is hot nowadays (i don't have a TV)
"better" than any show on PBS. But, consider for a moment the
alternative. If a number of people were to write to me stating that
"Flowers for Algernon" is le dernier cri and not to be surpassed
ever by anything (this is, i think, a typical stance in this news
group) and an even greater number state that it's toilet paper
(another favorite stance) should i accept or reject FfA? If i allow
my own judgment of the book to enter into it (i happen to think
it's a fine piece of writing) then the list i produce would be a
list of _my_ favorites. On the other hand if i don't use my own
judgment then what do i say about FfA? Should i say something like
"some think this book is the best thing since unsliced bread others
think that Keyes should be a candidate for retroactive abortion"?
No, this is clearly infeasible. The way it is now no one can
complain - you gets what youse paid for. The books that most of you
vote for will be highly recommended, others less so. That's
democracy.
    Now i'm just going to clamber onto this soap box here for a
minute and talk a little bit about democracy. (No doubt this will in
its turn draw flames...:-)
    I have often observed that there is only a small percentage of
the population which is actually active in shaping policy. The
"silent majority" is more than just a convenient catch phrase. I've
noticed it even here in the cloistered halls of Academie.
    (We) scientists bemoan the fact that most of the administrators
of Universities are non-scientists, however if there is to be any
political action then the scientists stay away in droves, claiming
that - if (we) ever give it any consideration at all - that (we)
aren't going to dirty (our) hands with this "petty" political stuff.
If a large group lets itself be dominated by only a small vocal
sub-group then that's its own tough luck, i would have thought that
net.sf-lovers is dynamic enough that this would not happen.

        Finally to avoid any further misunderstandings about the
poll here is a summary of the salient points:

>Only MAIL responses will be recorded.
>Everyone who votes will be acknowledged at the end of the Poll
 unless they explicitly ask otherwise.
>This is a Poll of books - the highest voted will be the highest
 recommended
>The reason why you think the book is good is immaterial (a "good
 read" is a valid reason). It is not necessary to give a reason.
>Tell me the author of the book(s)
>If you recommended a series then include the titles of the books
 in the series unless the series is in the appended list or is "very
 well known" The reason is i may not know the titles and so would
 not recognize votes for books in the series as the same..also
 series may have different names...  Similarly - don't say ALL of
 <your fave>'s books should be in the list (unless you actually LIST
 them i'll ignore it).
>There is no limit on the amount of books you may vote for, however
 you shouldn't vote more than once for any one book. You may vote
 (for different books) as many times as you wish.
>Ideally i would like a list ordered alphabetically by author with
 the titles of each authors books in an indented list following the
 authors name. But that isn't a necessary requirement.
>To increase the usefulness of this Poll please try to classify
 each of the books you vote for. This is not essential but would be
 nice if you could find the time. The classification can be
 something simple like some combination of the following tags: -
 sword & sorcery, fantasy, military, hard science, extrapolation,
 exploration, colonies, humor, whimsy, historical, overpopulation,
 superhumans, esp, ai, sociology, mythology, religion, alien
 invasion, first contact, faster-than-light, subgenre creation, many
 worlds, subworld creation, unique conception, alternate history,
 time travel, interspecies relationships, psychology, linguistics,
 anthropology, space-opera, rites of passage, fun, adventure,
 superior writing etc.
>With the same idea it would be nice if you could give me the date
 of first publication and any vital statistics about the author that
 you know (eg. birth-death dates, pseudonyms etc.)

Thanks to all those who wrote in with praise instead of groans.
Hasta la bye bye for now.

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of
Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Battlestar Galactica
Date: 27 Jun 85 23:32:41 GMT

    This is for all the Battlestar "Galactica" fans out there. This
past weekend I attended Colonial Con I in Easton, Maryland which was
a Galactica con. Richard Hatch and Robert Thurston (write the first
four and best B.G.  adaptations.) were there.
    Mr. Thurston gave a talk on the future of "Galactica" novels. He
has been signed by Berkley Books to do four more original stories.
Berkley has decided to stop adapting the episodes and wants to get
into new material.
    His first book will be out in late November or early December of
this year. The title is "The Nightmare Machine" which he wanted
titled "Lucifer's Guilt Machine". It seems that Berkley thinks its
bad advertising to have guilt in a book title. The hardest hit by
Lucifer's little contraption are of course Starbuck and Adama. The
one who finds it easiest to deal with, is Boomer.
    His second book will be out around June of 86. Mr. Thurston's
title was "Deal, Chameleon", but Berkley wants to call it "Deal,
Starbuck". This is not an adaptation of "The Man With Nine Lives"
and Mr. Thurston of course would not say is Starbuck finds out the
truth. This story also marks the return of Captain Croft from "Gun
on Ice Planet Zero" (The Cylon Death Machine) and he makes a few
moves on Sheba.
    Berkley wants to do two more original stories, but as yet has
not signed anyone. From comments made during the discussions with
Mr. Thurston it is unlikely that Ron Goulart will be doing them.
    In case anyone one in the U.S. is interested, "Galactica" has a
large following in England and Australia. We had a large group
consisting of fans from both countries who showed up. The con was a
big hit.
    Colonial Con II will be held in San Diego next year. If anyone
is interested write to me by Email and I can send you the address to
write to for more info.
                                        Kenneth Crist, Jr.
                                        kwc@cvl
                                        Computer Vision Lab
                                        University of Maryland

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 85 04:24:05 EDT
From: Bob Webber <WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Quotations: Sturgeon and others

The Writer's Quotation Book: A Literary Companion edited by James
Charlton (Penquin Books, 1981) contains the following quote by
Theodore Sturgeon:
    A good science-fiction story is a story with a human problem,
    and a human solution, which would not have happened without
    its science content.
Unfortunately, none of the quotes in book have references.  I am, of
course, curious as to where it was written first.  I have a strong
suspicion that it was written just after reading Nolan's Cold
Equations short story and then immediately forgotten.  On the other
hand, i guess it could be said of many of his writings (e.g.,
Maturity [in The Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon] or Microcosmic God [in
Caviar]; so maybe he did believe it.

There are other quotes that are possibly related to the recent
bickering over what is good and what is bad in sf:

    In literature, as in love, we are astonished at what is chose
    by others.  -- Andre Maurois

    A book is a mirror; if an ass peers into it, you can't expect
    an apostle to peer out of it.  -- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

    No man understands a deep book until he has seen and lived at
    least part of its contents. -- Ezra Pound

    I suggest that the only books that influence us are those for
    which we are ready, and which have gone a little farther down
    our particular path than we have yet gone ourselves.
                                                -- E. M. Forester
And always keeping in mind:

    A good writer is not, per se, a good book critic. No more than
    a good drunk is automatically a good bartender.  -- Jim Bishop

we can turn to The Book of Insults: Ancient and Modern, An Amiable
History of Insult, Invective, Imprecation & Incivility (Literary,
Political, & Historical) Hurled Through the Ages & Compiled as a
Public Service by Nancy McPhee [Nancy McPhee, Penguin Books, 1980]
and find that even quality [in the traditional sense of
anthologizers] can't recognize itself, so what hope have we.

It is hard to figure out what one gains by not being able to enjoy a
particular book.  However, it is still possible to make meaningful
comments about books.  For example:

    If you like Peter S. Beagle's A Fine and Private Place, then
    you will probably enjoy Linda Haldeman's The Last Elf in
    Elvinwood.

If we keep this up, we could develope an almost telegraphic style
and produce messgaes like:

    Clifton Fadiman's The Mathematical Magpie; Clifton Fadiman's
    Fantasia Mathematica; Edwin Abbott's Flatland; Dionys Burger's
    Sphereland; D. E. Knuth's Surreal Numbers; A. K. Dewdney's The
    Planiverse; Norman Kagan's The Mathenauts [Judith Merril's 10th
    Annual Edition The Year's Best S-F]; Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad.

or

    Olaf Stapledon's Odd John; Stanley G. Weinbaum's The New Adam;
    Oscar Rossiter's Tetrasomy Two; Theodore Strugeon's Maturity
    [see above]; Wilmar H. Shiras's Children of the Atom; Daniel
    Keyes' Flowers for Algernon; David R. Palmer's Emergence.

or

    James P. Hogan's The Genesis Machine; Fred Hoyle and John
    Elliot's A for Andromeda; David Brin's Startide Rising; Paul
    Preuss's The Gates of Heaven.

or

    L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt's The Compleat Enchanter;
    Christopher Stasheff's The Warlock in Spite of Himself; Vernor
    Vinge's Grimm's World; Ursula K. LeGuin's The Earthsea Trilogy.

or for subtler relations:

    [Gordon Dickson's] The Final Encyclopedia - The Tactics of
    Mistake = [Ayn Rand's] Atlas Shrugged - The Fountainhead

or

    Ursula K. LeGuin's The Dispossed = Paul Preuss's Broken
    Symmetries + F. Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State

While doubtless there are many who would take issue with the content
of the above groupings/equations, those same people would probably
have taken issue with their longer version also.

Well, on my screen I only see 16 lines, but i suspect there are
enough more that it is time to stop.

                                   BOB (webber@rutgers)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jun 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #238
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 28 Jun 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 238

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & Brust & Chalker & Heinlein &
                    The Oz Canon (2 msgs),
            Films - Terminator & Lifeforce,
            Television - Roddenbery (2 msgs) & Fixing Bad SF &
                    Battlestar Galactica,
            Miscellaneous - Controlling Time (2 msgs) & Spoilers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 23:51:49 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: RE:  So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

I can't say I've noticed any discrepancies between English and
American versions of SLATFATF, but in _Life, the Universe, and
Everything_, when Arthur Dent crossed the Atlantic he changed from a
"Complete A**hole" to a "Complete Kneebiter."  At least as far as
Wowbagger was concerned.....
                                        Will Duquette

------------------------------

From: rochester!sher@topaz.arpa
Subject: SZKB's work
Date: 24 Jun 85 08:15:40 GMT

I have recently (in the past few months) read Yendi, Jhereg (sp?),
and To Reign in Hell.  My micro review of SZKB's writing is Steven
Brust writes like Larry Niven trying to write like Roger Zelazney,
and succeeding.  To expand on this the plot structure seems to be
reminiscent of Larry Niven's work but the sentence structure reminds
me of Roger Zelazny.  Considering them indepently of sf-context they
are all good read's though TRiH is not as good as the others (Trying
to write about simple minded (in the sense that their minds are not
complicated) characters results in simplistic characters).  In other
words TRiH attempts the impossible and almost (but not quite) gets
away with it.

From the barely literate ramblings of
David Sher
sher@rochester
seismo!rochester!sher

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 85 18:11:48 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Donaldson's Excessively Distended Verbosity

I think that this quote of a quote from Chalker's VENGANCE OF THE
DANCING GODS says it all:

    "When chronicling great adventures, the chronicler should take
    pains to use words that even the most educated of readers must
    look up.  this may make your chronicle very slow, if not
    impossible to read, but it will be critically acclaimed
    throughout the land, for none will wish to admit that they
    didn't understand and relish every word.  Instead, they will use
    the comfort with such phraseology as a limitus test for
    intelectual equality.  No one may ever really read you, but all
    will be forced to purchase a copy of the chronicle to convince
    others that they did, and your brilliance and intellect will be
    permanently unquestioned."

        --The Romantic Saga Writer's Manual of Style, Marahbar

                                                --Jamie
                                                jwz@cmu-cs-spice

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Heinlein
Date: 26 Jun 85 19:19:39 GMT

>From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
>Someone asked a while back what was the "Glaroon" in a couple of
>Robert Heinlein's stories.  I did not see an answer to this since.
>I too am greatly puzzled by this reference and would appreciate
>answers/minor pointers.

I was the one, and no-one has responded to me, yet.  The two places
in which the references appear are in _JOB_ and in a short-story
called _They_.

Also, someone wrote me a short while ago, asking about the story
_Gulf_, which is connected to _Friday_.  The story is in a
collection called _Assignment in Eternity_ which is still in print
(I think); I happened to remember it because they have been
advertisements for Astounding in microfiche, and the issue which has
_Gulf_ in it is one they are handing out as a freebie to show off
the product.
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 11:25:47-PDT
From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Wherever you go, there you are.)
To: jsweet@uci-icsa.ARPA
Subject: Re: The Oz canon and the film

Book 41: /A Barnstormer in Oz/ by PJ Farmer.  It's good, it's real
PJ Farmer, and I wouldn't give it to kids.  It is quite well done,
and the story certainly fits the Oz stories well, even "explaining"
many things we only wondered about.  But fairly intense sex (NOT
explicit) disqualifies it, in my humble opinion, from membership in
the canon, because a kid book it ain't.

Cheers,
Dick Binder   (The Stainless Steel Rat)

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Re: Oz books
Date: 27 Jun 85 06:53:14 GMT

unixcorn@dcc1.UUCP (math.c) writes:
>  When L.Frank Baum died in 1919, Reilly and Lee (the publishers of
>his books) decided to find another author who could continue the
>one book a year cycle that was so profitable for them. Ruth Plumly
>Thompson fit the bill perfectly, she had grown up on the OZ books,
>was already an author of childrens books and she needed the money
>to support her mother and invalid sister.  The first book she wrote
>was published under Baum's and her name (to promote continuity) but
>was all her own work.

        The "Reader's Guide to Fantasy" - Searls, Meacham & Franklin
pg 27 states that "The Royal Book of Oz" (her first) was a work up
by her of notes that Baum left his demise, so the accreditation
would be proper (that is if this is correct - i have no information
to the contrary).

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 85 10:48:12 EDT
From: Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM
Subject: Ellison and Terminator

I just watched Terminator last night from a rented (and well used) VHS
tape.  One of the last lines in the credits acknowledges Harlan 
Ellison's work.  It seems hard to believe that this line was just 
added because of the recent court decision, as the tape appeared much
older than two weeks.  Does anyone know if Harlan was originally
associated with the project, otherwise it seems the people who made
Terminator were asking for trouble by acknowledging his work without
paying him something.

Don Schmitz@cmu-ri-arm

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 85 10:48:12 EDT
From: Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM
Subject: Ellison and Terminator

Also, a brief word of advice, the new movie Life Force, which had what
I considered a good preview and touts lots of people from big name
movies, is in actuallity a poor B movie.  The plot has been blatantly
ripped off from Alien and Dawn of the Dead, and the acting, effects,
etc. range from non- existent to awful. I haven't seen any mention of
this film so far, so maybe its not too late to save you all.

Don Schmitz@cmu-ri-arm

------------------------------

Subject: Roddenbery
Date: 27 Jun 85 08:34:20 PDT (Thu)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        The three other-than-ST projects that Roddenbery worked on
are as follows:
        1.  The 'advanced-race-looking-over-us' idea that was moved
from a pilot film to a TV movie of the week was 'The Questor Tapes'.
It starred Mike Farrel ( late of MASH ) as a human engineer, and
somebody I can't recall as the android Questor.  D.C. Fontana
novelised the script.
        2.  The modern-man-in-the-future idea was made into the
pilot film 'Genesis II', which starred Alex Cord, currently the
Arch-angel character on Air Wolf.  This was better done than any of
the Duck Dogers stuff, and the network said, 'OK, make another one.'
Gene did.  It was called 'Planet Earth', and replaced Cord with John
Saxon.  This one flubbed ( man, it was bad ), and the project got
stepped on.
        3.  The occult series idea was made into a TV pilot starring
Robert Culp as an investigator into occult happenings.  This was a
really nice piece of work, so of course I can't remember the darn
name.  As a note of interest, the main character's maid/caretaker
was played by Majel Barret-Roddenbery, Christine Chapel of ST fame.
I have no idea why this one didn't take.  This piece of work has no
relation whatsoever with the usually watchable 'Sixth Sense' series,
which starred Gary Collins.

                        Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 17:04 PDT
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #233
Cc: jhardest@bbncct.Arpa

I think I know the answers.

For the pilots, I think the first one is *Probe V* It was about the
last of a race of androids left to watch over earth. The second
pilot is *Spectre*. It shows up every now and again on saturday
afternoon movies.

As for the short lived series, I gotcha covered on that one. It was
called *Planet Earth.*( I think Roddenbery mant it as an earthbound
*Star Trek*).

Now I have some trivia

   1) Name the pilot film for *Planet Earth*.

and in case you get that.

   2) Name the actor(s) that played the lead role.

------------------------------

From: inuxm!les@topaz.arpa (Leslie Bomar)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad sci-fi
Date: 27 Jun 85 19:17:09 GMT

> Space 1999:
>   Hardest of all to fix, because you just can't by a flying moon,
> except perhaps with spindizzies, and they wouldn't be that out of
> control.  The fact remains that if you are going to have an
> interstellar adventure show, you have just got to have FTL drives.
>
> Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario
> 519/884-7473

I have a tendency to disagree with this particular comment in that I
read a very good book a while back, that involved a species of
higher technological capabilities that were running from an
explosion in the galactic core and, their fleet was primarily made
up of their own planets.  They also took the earth with them( I
don't want to give too many details in case you haven't read the
book).  Also if you are familiar with "known space" check back and
see why and how the puppeteers left our galaxy.

Your other comments were very well done.

Write e-mail if you want the title to the book mentioned above as I
will have to look it up.  References to "known space" can be given
but those too I will have to look up.

                                Les Bomar
                                !inhp4!inuxc!inuxm!les

------------------------------

From: dartvax!merchant@topaz.arpa (Peter Merchant)
Subject: Re: Space 1999 : SF-on-TV in general
Date: 25 Jun 85 22:12:27 GMT

> A disclaimer : my view of the American view of B-G is based on
> "Starlog" magazine. According to that rag, B-G was the best thing
> *ever* and loved by all. So maybe some of you good-guys in the
> states would like to let us Europeans know what the true feelings
> re B-G were.
>
> UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam

"Starlog" is certainly an interesting magazine in that it does a
pretty good job of keeping people posted on science
fiction/adventure movies (I consider James Bond and Indiana Jones
not to be Science Fiction, although there are those who disagree).

My only complaint about "Starlog" is that they love everything.
Anything that says "Space" is the best thing to happen to science
fiction since sliced bread.  I tend to not trust their reviews of
anything.  Therefore, I wouldn't take their opinion to heart.

Now, when it comes to Cattlecar Galactica you have to stop and think
about it.  As science fiction television, it was horrible.  The
characters were pretty weak, the stories were ridiculous, etc.

But, was B-G really TRYING to be science fiction?  Nah, I don't
think so.  It was very thin adventure.  At this, it was very good.
Pulp fiction adventure has it's place on television.  Fine, this one
was based on a giant spaceship.  So?  Come come, gang, just because
it's in space doesn't mean more should be expected of it.

My only complaint about B-G as an adventure SERIES is that it became
too predictable.  They reused far too many daring escapes, making
the adventure mundane.  Alone, it was okay, but on the third time
you'd think the cylons would have learned.  As David Gerrold put it,
we don't tune in to see whether the hero will escape.  We know he
will.  We want to see how!  Now, when the how becomes obvious, it
gets dull.
                    Peter Merchant

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 10:17 EDT
From: Scott Brim  <swb%cornella.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10

Re stories about controlling time: there was one which I think was
called "Timestorm", in Analog, by a Russian.  In it a man is
transported to the center from which the Timelords control events in
all time.  He does things with surprising results.  Nuff said.
Maybe someone else can pinpoint where and when it appeared.
                                                          Scott

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@topaz.arpa (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time
Date: 27 Jun 85 13:14:00 GMT

> Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
> CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
> (controlling your local time)?

You'll find some of that among the evil characters in many episodes
of Dr. Who.
                       A. G. Percus
                       (ARPA) percus@acf4
                       (NYU) percus.acf4
                       (UUCP) ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 11:22:06-PDT
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: ....SPOILERS ??

     Everybody is different, some people get less enjoyment out of
the first reading of a book they know too much about and should be
given a warning about spoilers in a review. I like to read certain
books 2 or more times myself, but, it depends on the book !

     In a movie theatre have you ever sat behind (or near) a person
who starts telling whats going to happen next ? "...Don't worry
there is no body down in the basement, but, as soon as they go back
upstairs Jason cuts all their heads off, except for the nerd girl
who dresses up like dorothy from the wizard of oz and then shoots
him with a phaser, after that he...". People will usually ask him to
be "QUITE !!", the extreme example above is of course from 'FRIDAY
the 13th, PART 2001'.  And lets not even talk about showtimes
previews of coming attractions, or Movie previews in general. ("My
God, was that the ENTERPRISE")

     Just because I like to read the 'LORD of the RINGS' at least
once a year, I don't think I should write a review that gives away
the ending. I guess the question really is : What is a SPOILER ?

            **** spoiler for 'STAR WARS' ****

Which of the following are spoilers for 'STAR WARS' ?

1. The story of rebels against an evil empire.
2. There is an extremely nasty villian named Darth Vader.
3. The hero of our story is young Luke Skywalker.
4. The two robots (called DROIDS) are extremely cute, like Laurel &
   Hardy.
5. Han decides to come back, and with his help Luke (DARTH'S SON)
   destroys the Death Star (the 1st one) and saves the rebel base.
6. Nice special effects, especially the laser swords (called
   LIGHT-SABERS).
7. The concept of the force is really neat, especially since it lets
   Obi-wan stay around even though he let darth kill his body.

     I think # 5 and # 7 are the spoilers. I know it's hard to do a
review without telling too much. I just want the reviewers to be
careful, and if they are not sure that they haven't told too much,
give us a SPOILER warning ?
                                       Thanks,
                                             KEN COBB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jun 85 1135-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #240
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 29 Jun 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 240

Today's Topics:

               Books - Current status of the SF Poll

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: SF Poll.
Date: 24 Jun 85 10:17:41 GMT

        Some Statistics (so far):
70 people have written in so far
846 distinct books
228 authors (counting collaborations)

  And here is the current list of favorites.  (note: there's a lot
of extraneous information this time round, i'm in the process of
providing as much information on the books (and authors) as i can in
the final list - right now i'm adding the Hugos and Nebulas. If you
have anything to contribute please send it in - this is a lot of
work!)

27  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress [1966] [ai,lunar colony,war]
    Heinlein,Robert A.

23  Dune [1965] [ecology,superman,esp,war]  Herbert,Frank

22  The Mote in God's Eye [1974] [first contact,hard science,
    war]    Niven,Larry & Pournelle,Jerry
22  The Lord of the Rings Trilogy: [epic fantasy,quest,
    linguistics]    Tolkien,John Ronald Reuel
22  Ringworld [1970] [hard science,planetary engineering]
    Niven,Larry

20  Startide Rising [1983] [hard science,dolphin intelligence,
    contact]  Brin,David

18  The Foundation Trilogy: [Hugo 1966]     Asimov,Isaac

15  The Left Hand of Darkness [sex]         Le Guin,Ursula K.

14  The Book of the New Sun Tetralogy: [soft sf,superior
    writing]  Wolfe,Gene
14  Stranger in a Strange Land [1961] [superman,sociology]
    Heinlein,Robert A.
14  Lord of Light [superhumans,mythology,religion]
    Zelazny,Roger
14  Childhood's End [1953] [maturing of human race,aliens]
    Clarke,Arthur C.

12  Sundiver [1980] [mystery,dolphin intelligence,contact]
    Brin,David

11  The Stars My Destination [1956] [aka "Tiger,Tiger!"]
    Bester,Alfred
11  The Forever War [interstellar war]      Haldeman,Joe
11  Stand on Zanzibar [1968] [overpopulation,sociology]
    Brunner,John Kilian Houston
11  Rendezvous with Rama [1973] [first contact,hard science]
    Clarke,Arthur C.

10  The Persistence of Vision [col.]        Varley,John
10  The Dying Earth [1950] [far future,magic]      Vance,Jack
10  I,Robot [1950]         Asimov,Isaac

9   The Sheep Look Up [1972]        Brunner,John Kilian Houston
9   The Lensman Series:     Smith,Edward Elmer,Ph.D.
    [1890-1965]
9   The Dispossessed [1974] [politics]      Le Guin,Ursula K.
9   The Demolished Man [1953]       Bester,Alfred
9   The Complete Enchanter: [scientific magic,humour]
    de Camp,L. Sprague & Pratt,Fletcher
9   Mission of Gravity [1954] [hard science,aliens] Clement,Hal
9   Dragon's Egg [1980] [hard science]   Forward,Robert L.,Ph.D.

8   Way Station [1963] [first contact]      Simak,Clifford
8   To Your Scattered Bodies Go [1971]      Farmer,Philip Jose
8   The Time Machine        Wells,Herbert George,B.Sc. D.Litt.
    [1866-1946]
8   Starship Troopers [1959] [politics]     Heinlein,Robert A.
8   Rite of Passage [1968] [rite of passage]   Panshin,Alexei
8   Protector [1973] [human origin,hard science]   Niven,Larry
8   Macroscope [1969] [cosmic adventure,ftl]       Anthony,
    Piers [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"]
8   Gateway [1977]  Pohl,Frederik
8   2001: A Space Odyssey [1968]    Clarke,Arthur C.

7   The Vlad Taltos Books: [scientific magic]       Brust,Steven
7   The Shockwave Rider [1975]      Brunner,John Kilian Houston

6   The Witches of Karres [magic]   Schmitz,James H.
6   The Cyberiad    Lem,Stanislaw
6   The City and the Stars [future evolution]       Clarke,
    Arthur C.
6   The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever Part I:
    Donaldson,Steven R.
6   Tea With the Black Dragon       MacAvoy,R. A.
6   Neutron Star [1968] [col.] [hard science]       Niven,Larry
6   Fahrenheit 451 [1953] [censorship]  Bradbury,Ray Douglas
6   Creatures of Light and Darkness [1969]  Zelazny,Roger
6   City [1952] [future humanity]   Simak,Clifford
6   A Canticle for Leibowitz [1959] [religion,post-holocaust]
    Miller,Walter M. Jr.

5   This Immortal ["..and call me Conrad"] [immortal superman]
    Zelazny,Roger
5   The War of The Worlds   Wells,Herbert George,B.Sc.
    D.Litt. [1866-1946]
5   The Space Merchants [1952] [extrapolation,satire]
    Pohl,Frederik & Kornbluth,Cyril M.
5   The Puppet Masters [1951]       Heinlein,Robert A.
5   The Hobbit [1937] [juvenile]    Tolkien,John Ronald Reuel
5   The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy [1979]  Adams,Douglas
5   The Doors of His Face,The Lamps of His Mouth [1971] [col.]
    Zelazny,Roger
5   The Chronicles of Amber Pentalogy: [alternate magic worlds]
    Zelazny,Roger
5   Tactics of Mistake [1971]       Dickson,Gordon R.
5   Silverlock [1949]       Myers Myers,John
5   Nostrilia [1975] [comp. of "The Underpeople" "The Planet
    Buyer"]         Smith,Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.]
    [1915-1954]
5   Nine Princes in Amber [1970]    Zelazny,Roger
5   More Than Human [1953] [group mind]     Sturgeon,Theodore
5   Lucifer's Hammer [1977] [catastrophe]   Niven,Larry &
    Pournelle,Jerry
5   Lord Valentine's Castle         Silverberg,Robert
5   Little Fuzzy [1962]     Piper,H. Beam
5   Foundation's Edge [1982]        Asimov,Isaac
5   Dreamsnake      McIntyre,Vonda N.
5   Callahan's Crosstime Saloon [1977]      Robinson,Spider
5   A Case of Conscience [1958] [Hugo 1959] [religion]
    Blish,James Benjamin

4   Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang [post-holocaust,cloning]
    Wilhelm,Kate
4   Titan [1979]    Varley,John
4   Time Enough for Love [1973]     Heinlein,Robert A.
4   The Warlock in Spite of Himself         Stasheff,Christopher
4   The Snow Queen [1980] [alien civilization]     Vinge,Joan D.
4   The Ship Who Sang [cyborg]      McCaffrey,Anne
4   The Myth Adventures Series: [humour,fantasy]    Asprin,
    Robert Lynn
4   The Midwich Cuckoos [1957]      Wyndham,John [1903-1969]
4   The Man in the High Castle [1962] [alternate history]
    Dick,Philip K.
4   The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Trilogy:
    [humour,philosophy]     Adams,Douglas
4   The Final Reflection    Ford,John
4   The Dragonriders of Pern Trilogy: [fantasy]     McCaffrey,
    Anne
4   The Darkover Series:    Bradley,Marion Eleanor Zimmer
4   The Cities In Flight Tetralogy: [future history,space
    opera]  Blish,James Benjamin
4   The Best of Cordwainer Smith [1975] [col.] [human animals,
    future history] Smith,Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.]
    [1915-1954]
4   The Belgariad Pentalogy: [fantasy,S&S,epic]   Eddings,David
4   Soldier,Ask Not [1968] [future society,military]
    Dickson,Gordon R.
4   Operation Chaos [scientific magic,alternate world]
    Anderson,Poul William
4   Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen [alternate history]  Piper,H. Beam
4   Empire of the East      Saberhagen,Fred
4   Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?    Dick,Philip K.
4   Davy [1964] [post-holocaust]    Pangborn,Edgar
4   Dangerous Visions [ed.]         Ellison,Harlan
4   A Wrinkle in Time [1962]        L'Engle,Madeleine

3   Too Many Magicians      Garrett,Randall
3   The Weapon Shops of Isher [1951]        van Vogt,A. E.
3   The Wanderer [1964] [catastrophe]       Leiber,Fritz
3   The Two Faces of Tomorrow [1979] [ai]   Hogan,James Patrick
3   The Tales of the Five: [fantasy]        Duane,Diane
3   The Skylark Series:     Smith,Edward Elmer,Ph.D.
    [1890-1965]
3   The Saga of the Pliocene Exile Tetralogy: [time travel,
    aliens,esp]    May,Julian
3   The Practice Effect [1984] [alternate universe,humour]
    Brin,David
3   The Ophiuchi Hotline    Varley,John
3   The Mists of Avalon [fantasy,Arthurian cycle]  Bradley,
    Marion Eleanor Zimmer
3   The Martian Chronicles [1950] [col.]    Bradbury,Ray
    Douglas
3   The Many-Coloured Land [1981]   May,Julian
3   The Lord Darcy Series: [magic,alternate history]
    Garrett,Randall
3   The Little Fuzzy Series: [sympathetic aliens,humour]
    Piper,H. Beam
3   The Lathe of Heaven     Le Guin,Ursula K.
3   The Last Unicorn [1968] [fantasy]       Beagle,Peter Soyer
3   The Goblin Reservation [1968]   Simak,Clifford
3   The Fountains of Paradise [1978]        Clarke,Arthur C.
3   The Einstein Intersection       Delany,Samuel R.
3   The Dosadi Experiment [1977]    Herbert,Frank
3   The Deep Range [1957] [undersea farming]  Clarke,Arthur C.
3   The Deathworld Trilogy: [hostile planet]  Harrison,Harry
3   The Day of the Triffids [1951] [catastrophe] Wyndham,John
    [1903-1969]
3   Stardance       Robinson,Spider & Jeanne
3   Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers     Harrison,Harry
3   SongMaster      Card,Orson Scott
3   Slan [1968] [supermen]  van Vogt,A. E.
3   Roadmarks [1979] [time travel]  Zelazny,Roger
3   Retief at Large [diplomacy,aliens,humour]  Laumer,Keith
3   Neuromancer [hard science]      Gibson,William
3   Needle [1949] [alien virus]     Clement,Hal
3   Men,Martians and Machines [adventure,robots]  Russell,
    Eric Frank
3   Jack of Shadows [magic,superman]       Zelazny,Roger
3   Inferno [1976]  Niven,Larry & Pournelle,Jerry
3   Gladiator-at-Law [1955] [extrapolation,satire]
    Pohl,Frederik & Kornbluth,Cyril M.
3   Flowers for Algernon [1966] [intelligence,fine writing]
    Keyes,Daniel
3   Downbelow Station [politics,war,aliens]       Cherryh,C.J.
3   Double Star [politics]  Heinlein,Robert A.
3   Doorways in the Sand [1976]     Zelazny,Roger
3   Damiano         MacAvoy,R. A.
3   Cat's Cradle [1963] [end of the world]  Vonnegut,Kurt Jr.
    [1922- ]
3   Bill the Galactic Hero  Harrison,Harry
3   Beauty [well written fairy tale]        McKinley,Robin
3   Babel-17 [1966]         Delany,Samuel R.
3   Another Fine Myth [1978]        Asprin,Robert Lynn
3   Again,Dangerous Visions [ed.]  Ellison,Harlan
3   A Spell for Chameleon   Anthony,Piers
    [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"]
3   A Fall of Moondust      Clarke,Arthur C.
3   1984 [1949] [dystopia]  Orwell,George [nee Eric Arthur
    Blair] [1903-1950]

2   Worlds of the Imperium [alternate worlds]       Laumer,Keith
2   Wasp [adventure,humour]        Russell,Eric Frank
2   Waldo & Magic,Incorporated [two novellas] [scientific
    magic]  Heinlein,Robert A.
2   Venus Equilateral [communications relay,techies]
    Smith,George O.
2   Ubik [1969]     Dick,Philip K.
2   True Names      Vinge,Vernor
2   Tower of Glass [androids]       Silverberg,Robert
2   To Reign in Hell [mythology,religion] [1985] Brust,Steven
2   Thrice Upon a Time      Hogan,James Patrick
2   Thieves World   Asprin,Robert Lynn
2   Thendara House [1983]   Bradley,Marion Eleanor Zimmer
2   The World of Null-A [1948]      van Vogt,A. E.
2   The Warhound and the World's Pain       Moorcock,Michael
2   The Tree of Swords and Jewels [sequel to The Dreamstone]
    Cherryh,C.J.
2   The Traveller in Black [fantasy]  Brunner,John Kilian Houston
2   The Titan Series: [world as organism]   Varley,John
2   The Thurb Revolution [1968]     Panshin,Alexei
2   The Swords of Lankhmar [col.]   Leiber,Fritz
2   The Star Diaries        Lem,Stanislaw
2   The Stainless Steel Rat [1961]  Harrison,Harry
2   The Snarkout Boys and the Avocado of Death   Pinkwater,Daniel
2   The Skylark of Space [1946]     Smith,Edward Elmer,Ph.D.
    [1890-1965]
2   The Silver Metal Lover  Lee,Tanith
2   The Sector General Series:      White,James
2   The Rolling Stones [aka "Space Family Stone"] [juvenile,
    family space travel]    Heinlein,Robert A.
2   The Riddle of the Stars Trilogy:        McKillip,Patricia
2   The Reluctant King Trilogy:     de Camp,L. Sprague
2   The Red Magician        Goldstein,Lisa
2   The Princess Bride [1973]       Goldman,William
2   The Past Through Tomorrow [1967] [col.] [future history]
    Heinlein,Robert A.
2   The King of Elfland's Daughter  Duane,Diane
2   The Integral Trees [1983] [hard science]        Niven,Larry
2   The Instrumentality of Mankind [1979] [col.]    Smith,
    Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.] [1915-1954]
2   The Incarnations of Immortality Series:         Anthony,Piers
    [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"]
2   The Illustrated Man [1951]      Bradbury,Ray Douglas
2   The Illuminatus! Trilogy: [conspiracy theories,humour]
    Wilson,Robert Anton & Shea,Robert J.
2   The Heechee Trilogy:    Pohl,Frederik
2   The Harper Hall of Pern Trilogy: [fantasy]  McCaffrey,Anne
2   The Guardians of the Flame Series:      Rosenberg,Joel
2   The Gods Themselves [1972] [Hugo & Nebula 1972] Asimov,Isaac
2   The Futurological Congress      Lem,Stanislaw
2   The Flying Sorcerers [1971] [humour,hard science]
    Gerrold,David & Niven,Larry
2   The Fifth Head of Cerberus [1972] [col.]        Wolfe,Gene
2   The Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series: [sword & sorcery,
    humour]  Leiber,Fritz
2   The Faded Sun Trilogy: [adventure,politics]    Cherryh,C.J.
2   The Face        Vance,Jack
2   The End of Eternity [1955]      Asimov,Isaac
2   The Earthsea Trilogy:   Le Guin,Ursula K.
2   The Dreamstone [celtic mythos,sword & sorcery]
    Cherryh,C.J.
2   The Dragon Waiting      Ford,John
2   The Door into Fire      Duane,Diane
2   The Demon Princes Series: [future civilazation] Vance,Jack
2   The Darwath Trilogy:    Hambly,Barbara
2   The Dancers at the End of Time Series:  Moorcock,Michael
2   The Crucible of Time    Brunner,John Kilian Houston
2   The Colour Of Magic     Pratchett,Terry
2   The Childe Cycle of books: [development of human race]
    Dickson,Gordon R.
2   The Camber Trilogy:     Kurtz,Katherine
2   The Broken Sword        Anderson,Poul William
2   The Book of Dreams      Vance,Jack
2   The Birthgrave  Lee,Tanith
2   The Big Time [alternate worlds]         Leiber,Fritz
2   The Battle Circle Trilogy: [post-holocaust]     Anthony,
    Piers [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"]
2   The Barbie Murders      Varley,John
2   The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat  Harrison,Harry
2   Tau Zero [1970] [hard science,interstellar ship]
    Anderson,Poul William
2   Tales of Known Space [col.]     Niven,Larry
2   Systemic Shock  Ing,Dean
2   Swords and Deviltry [1970] [col.]       Leiber,Fritz
2   Swords against Death [col.]     Leiber,Fritz
2   Star Well       Panshin,Alexei
2   Something Wicked This Way Comes         Bradbury,Ray Douglas
2   So You Want to Be a Wizard      Duane,Diane
2   Slaughterhouse-5        Vonnegut,Kurt Jr. [1922- ]
2   Retief's War [diplomacy,aliens,humour]        Laumer,Keith
2   Raphael         MacAvoy,R. A.
2   Quest of the Three Worlds       Smith,Cordwainer [nee Paul
    Linebarger Ph.D.] [1915-1954]
2   Pilgrimage: The Book of the People      Henderson,Zenna
2   Out of the Deeps [1953] [aka "The Kraken Wakes"]
    Wyndham,John [1903-1969]
2   Our Lady of Darkness [horror]   Leiber,Fritz
2   Nova [1968]     Delany,Samuel R.
2   Mindkiller      Robinson,Spider
2   Midnight at the Well of Souls [1977] [artificial worlds]
    [first in Well World series]    Chalker,Jack L.
2   Michaelmas      Budrys,Algi/rda/s Jonas
2   Masque World    Panshin,Alexei
2   Martians,Go Home [1955] [humour]  Brown,Frederic William
2   Little,Big     Crowley,John
2   Jhereg [1983]   Brust,Steven
2   Have Spacesuit Will Travel      Heinlein,Robert A.
2   God Stalk       Hodgell,P. C.
2   Glory Road [1963]       Heinlein,Robert A.
2   Flatland [math. popularization]         Abbott,Edwin A.
2   Dragonsinger    McCaffrey,Anne
2   Dragonflight    McCaffrey,Anne
2   Dorsai! [1959] [future history]         Dickson,Gordon R.
2   Dinosaur Beach  Laumer,Keith
2   Deathbird Stories       Ellison,Harlan
2   Damiano's Lute  MacAvoy,R. A.
2   Dahlgren        Delany,Samuel R.
2   Conan the Barbarian [sword & sorcery]   Howard,Robert E.
2   Citizen of the Galaxy [rite of passage,future society]
    Heinlein,Robert A.
2   Camp Concentration [1968]       Disch,Thomas M.
2   Brave New World         Huxley,Aldous
2   Bolo    Laumer,Keith
2   Berserker [killer robots]       Saberhagen,Fred
2   Armageddon 2419AD [original Buck Rogers]        Nowlan,
    Phillip Francis
2   All the Myriad Ways [1971] [col.]       Niven,Larry
2   Agent of Vega [adventure]       Schmitz,James H.
2   Against the Fall of Night [future evolution]    Clarke,
    Arthur C.
2   A Wizard of Earthsea [juvenile,magic,rite of passage]
    Le Guin,Ursula K.
2   A Princess of Mars [1917]       Burroughs,Edgar Rice
2   A Midsummer Tempest [fantasy,Shakespearean overtones]
    Anderson,Poul William

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 85 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #241
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 241

Today's Topics:

            Books - End of the World Stories (2 msgs) &
                    The Oz Canon & A Story Request,
            Films - D.A.R.Y.L. & The Black Cauldron &
                    Star Trek (2 msgs),
            Television - Space: 1999
            Miscellaneous - Discrepancies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 07:54:38-PDT
From: goun%vacant.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Heisenberg may have slept here)
To: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Re: The End of Civilization as We Know It

"End of the world" stories are probably my favorite SF sub-genre.
Try _Down_to_a_Sunless_Sea_, by an author whose name unfortunately
escapes me at the moment (where's jayembee when you need him?).
It's the story of the passengers and crew of a 747 jetliner trying
to survive the outbreak of a nuclear war.

I didn't actually break out in tears reading this book, but I
sniffled a bit.
                                        -- Roger Goun
ARPA:goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
     100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel: (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 10:44:34-PDT
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: 'END OF THE WORLD' BOOKS

>        I have, in thinking of some of the books I have enjoyed
>over the last few years, realized there is a small sub-genre that I
>seem to enjoy.  It is the one where civilization is zapped (or at
>least totally screwed up) by a non-alien occurrence.  So far I have
>read Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and War Day.  I am currently
>reading The Floating Dragon, and have enjoyed the first half of the
>book.  Does anyone else enjoy this kind of Speculative Fiction?
>
>Brendan E. Boelke

     I do like the kind of book you are talking about. I'll give you
a recommendation of another book to read, "EMERGENCE" by David
Palmer. I really liked the book and recommend it highly. Also let me
be the first to drop this joke on you:

 "ARMAGEDDON sick and tired of these 'End of the World' stories"

KEN COBB

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 09:39:57-PDT
From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
To: jlr%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: political content of "The Wizard of Oz"

Rick Heli asked if anyone has ever put a political interpretation on
the Oz books.  I have heard of such an analysis, complete with
references to William Jennings Bryant and bi-metallism, but I don't
know enough about the books or the politics of the time to judge it.

However, I do have my own theories about the movie, "The Wizard of
Oz".  When I saw it as a kid, I thought it was just a pleasant
fantasy about a girl having some remarkable adventures.  Ha!  That's
just the disguise that the moviemakers put over their true
intentions.

We start with a girl from Kansas, the very heartland of America.
She's our own red, white, and blue girl: red hair, lips, and shoes,
and a blue and white pinafore. She's swept away by a cataclysm (the
Great Depression) to a strange land, and all she wants to do is get
home.  Home to the happy times, the times of prosperity, the place
where bluebirds fly. People tell her to go to the Emerald City
(Washington) and see the Wizard (Roosevelt).  He knows the way.
Along her journey she meets the major segments of American society,
one by one.

The first she comes upon is the Scarecrow, the intellectuals.  He's
lost his brains, he just doesn't know which way to go (when we first
see him, he's pointing left). Communism, fascism, or reject it all
for existentialism?  Come with me to meet the Wizard, says Dorothy.
Join the Brain Trust and get your purpose back.

Next is the Tin Woodman, American industry, rusted to a stop.  All
he needs is a little oil in his joints, a little government spending
to prime the pump, and he can get moving again.  What is he missing?
A heart. Compassion for the worker.  Retired and penniless?  Tough
luck.  Organizing for better working conditions?  Fine, you're
fired.  Come with me to the Wizard, with his Social Security
programs and pro-union bent, says Dorothy.

Finally they meet the cowardly Lion, the military.  After World War
I he was king of the forest.  Now enemies are moving in Germany and
Japan, and he is helpless to do anything.  Lost his courage.

They make it to Washington, and find that the Wizard is not quite
what they had hoped.  Instead of solving their problems, he sends
them out a dangerous mission against someone who wants to conquer
the world and lives in a very Germanic looking castle (the movie was
made in 1939).  They succeed in spite of it all and return to claim
their reward.  But the Wizard turns out not to be the mighty and
awe-inspiring figure that they thought. He's just a kindly and
somewhat befuddled old man.  He shows them that they had the real
answers inside them all along. Little Dorothy America only had to
truly believe that she could get home and there she was: "We have
nothing to fear but fear itself."

This all sounded pretty good to me as I was watching the movie (to
the point where when Glinda, the good witch of the North, appeared
all I could think of was "Eleanor!"), but there was one major
character unaccounted for.  What about the dog?  Toto is with
Dorothy all the time.  What role could he be playing?  When he
pulled aside the curtain revealing the Wizard, it finally came to
me.  Toto is the fourth estate, the media.  He's always running
ahead of Dorothy and finding out things.  When she's trapped in the
witch's castle, he carries messages between her and the Scarecrow.
He shows the Wizard for what he really is, in spite of all the
lights and smoke of White House pomp.

But what about the Munchkins?  The flying monkeys?  The poppy
fields?  I leave them as exercises for the reader.

John Redford

P.S.  The new movie, "Return to Oz", is wonderful.  One could put
political interpretations on it too, with the way that the
punked-out Wheelers scurry through the ruins of the Emerald City,
but enough is enough.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 08:52:55-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: another "what was that story called"...

All this talk of time stories reminded me of a short story/novella
but I can't seem to remember the name or where I read it.

This is what I remember of it: one average normal day our hero comes
home from an out-of-town trip to find his home and wife in a
"frozen" state, cobwebs on everything, on his entrance into the
house everything "comes to life". After encountering this phenomenon
a few times, he begins to question his sanity. It turns out that he
is the only "live" person in the "puppet" world and everything is
being controlled for someone elses amusement. (Sorry, I don't
remember how it ends.)

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 07:18:42-PDT
From: lionel%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: D.A.R.Y.L.

I haven't seen the movie D.A.R.Y.L., but from what I've heard of the
plot, and the current discussion of plagiarism suits, I wonder if
anyone's noticed the similarities between D.A.R.Y.L. and John
Sladek's "Roderick".  Both are about a robot-boy who is adopted by a
family.  Of course, Sladek's story is positively insane, but the
idea is there...
                 Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From: dartvax!betsy@topaz.arpa (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: The Black Cauldron (spoilers!)
Date: 27 Jun 85 18:58:26 GMT

I was in my local bookstore yesterday when I saw "The Black Cauldron
Coloring Book", a Disney tie-in to the movie of the same name.  I
skimmed it for clues as to how closely the movie would follow the
book.  Here follow some hasty impressions:

o Visually, the movie owes far more to Sleeping Beauty than to the
original illustrations for the Alexander book.  That is to say,
Prydain is far cleaner and more wholesome than I'd imagined it.  It
looks like a Disney movie; what can I say?

o As an example of this, Gurgi is about knee-high and is clean.  (no
dirt and leaves in his fur.)

o  Eilonwy is a dead ringer for the Disney Alice.

o The Prince who sacrifices his life to break the Cauldron has
vanished entirely.  Instead, the Dark Lord is knocked into the
Cauldron by Taran.  (Somehow, I don't think they'll be making a
sequel...)

o Hen Wen is round, pink, and clean.  She looks rather like the
tidied-up Wilbur from Charlotte's Web.

o The Dark Lord, however, is at least as scary-looking as the evil
witches in Sleeping Beauty and Snow White.  A definite seat-wetter.

Don't get me wrong; I'll be in line, $5 in hand, as soon as the box
office opens.  I'll simply be expecting another charming Disney
movie, not a close approximation to the Lloyd Alexander books.

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: Nimoy interview and Star Trek IV rumors
Date: 28 Jun 85 06:27:00 GMT

The Z Channel Cable TV magazine features an interview with Leonard
Nimoy in the lastest issue.  Not being a particularly ardent
Trekkie, I'm not sure about how fresh his revelations about the
origin of Spock and so on are, but he also comments at length about
"Star Trek IV", which he will direct.  Here are a few choice quotes.

Q:  Can you tell me anything about it [STIV]?
A:  It will be released in 1986.

Q:  Are all the regulars back?
A: We expect all of our regular cast.

Q: Any chance of it (the Enterprise) coming back to life?
A: I would hope we could deal with the loss of a ship.

Q: I understand that STIV is supposed to be a little funnier, a
little lighter.
A: Yeah, that's the intention. It's time to have some fun

Q: Rumor has it that Eddie Murphy may be joining you...[questioner's
ellipses]
A: I really don't know.  We don't even have a script yet.  No
point in discussing casting till we get a script.  We will have a
script some time in August. We know there will be at least one
interesting guest character.  And I have had a couple
conversations with him, but there's no predicting right now.

Q: The crew in STIII seems to have strayed off their law-abiding
course ...  [questioner's ellipses]
A: In STIV we are going to deal with the fact that they are now
renegades. So they aren't going to be functioning as policemen in
STIV either.

Q:  Will Spock recover?
A: Boy, I'm concerned about that. I'd like to see my old friend
live long and prosper.

Peter Reiher
reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
{...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Subject: "Where no man has gone before"
Date: 27 Jun 85 23:13:35 PDT (Thu)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

I usually take that frontispiece "... boldly go where no man has
gone before" in about the same vein as the publishers' scribbles on
the covers of paperbacks: if, by some accident, they come close to
describing what's in the book, you're lucky.  And it's true that the
Enterprise from time to time undertook explorations in previously
untrodden (so to speak) territory.  However, most of the time she
had duties to fulfill as one of the 12 or 13 most powerful ships of
the Federation's fleet.  She could hardly do that while spending 5
years out of contact with anybody at all.  Furthermore, how likely
is it that anybody would send so expensive a ship and crew out
simply to be a remote survey vessel?  Or that StarFleet would
entrust *all* diplomatic dealings with newly-contacted races to a
crew whose primary orientation was military?  Let Enterprise and her
sisters establish first contact, but let the Federation's diplomatic
corp do their job as soon as possible.

Though as for the naming of the newly discovered planets, they
seemed to follow a naming system using first the name of the
constellation in which the sun was found, a Greek letter specifying
the particular sun (possibly by absolute magnitude), and a number
specifying the planet of that sun.  So they could actually specify
names for as-yet hypothetical planets.  One wonders if all the
constellation names were for those seen from Earth, or if other
planets got their points of view represented as well.

So I take it for granted that, though they may occasionally go where
no human has gone before (boldly, I trust), they will usually be
going where there are plenty of humans, and others, already.

(Do you realise how many people must now think that "... to boldly
go..."  is acceptable English grammar?)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Subject: Space: 1999
Date: 28 Jun 85 00:38:35 PDT (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Space:1999 was far from being one the best series I've ever seen,
but it was at least nice to look at.  A great deal of work went into
having striking and aesthetically pleasing scenery, and equipment.
If a similar amount of work had gone into removing Barbara Bain, the
series might have done better.  What wonderful things contracts are:
you have no acting talent worthy of the name, no expressiveness, no
spark of character, and they can't get rid of you because you have a
contract.

The absurdity of the pseudo-science?  About par for the course, I'd
say.  Dreadful compared to what it could have been, but average
compared with its contemporaries.  I find I get numb to such things
after a while, and just content myself with enjoying what there is
to enjoy from it.  Better than waiting for a ship that looks as if
it'll never come in.  When medical shows with their pick of decent
medical advisers declare that "X-rays ruled out concussion", I give
up any hope.  If they can't get that one small thing right, what
expectations shall I hold for shows where science is supposedly the
lifeblood?  Well, I've simply stopped holding any at all.

There were enjoyable bits.  I thought those hand weapons were a
fresh idea.  I liked the Eagles, even if there are strategic
problems with using freighters as fighters.  Those little
communications devices they used (visual communications at one end,
electronic key at the other) seemed a very practical idea.  The
transport system around the base (the "lavender subway", I called
it, because of the colour of the light in it) was well done.  And
people like Alan Carter and Paul were enjoyable.  By the way, was it
Prentis Hancock who played Paul?  I've seen him in a couple of Dr.
Who's ("Planet of Fear"; "The Ribos Operation"), I'm sure I've seen
him before, and I'm wondering if it was in Space:1999.

I thought at the time that the second-season changes were the
beginning of the end, as similar changes were for Bill Bixby's "The
Magician".  The show was losing what steam it had had, and not even
Catherine Schell made up for it.  And they kept Barbara Bain!!!!
Does nothing ever go right?

Oh well, at least it didn't have as bleak an outlook on life as UFO
did.  But, as a certain Parisian gentleman would say, that's another
story.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: iddic!rick@topaz.arpa (Rick Coates)
Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on)
Date: 26 Jun 85 20:38:11 GMT

The reason that faster-than-light is acceptable is that it is
explained, and has rules.  This includes reactionless thrusters, for
example.  The explanation that Niven gives in his 'Known Space'
series is that the technology was sold to us (humanity).  One of the
tenets of 'speculative fiction' is to assume new technology or even
laws of physics, and consider how this would affect people.  There
was no explanation for stillsuits and I was just curious.

I believe that a good sci-fi book that uses technology or science
that is not part of our current knowledge should establish, and
follow, some rules and limitations, not just do whatever that author
feels like doing.

Larry Niven discussed this in some essay in one of his collections,
I don't remember the name.

Rick Coates
...!tektronix!iddic!rick

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 85 1008-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #242
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 242

Today's Topics:

           Books - End of the World Stories & Book Notes,
           Films - The Omega Man & Back to the Future,
           Television - Space: 1999 & How to Fix Bad SF,
           Miscellaneous - Spoilers (2 msgs) & Controlling Time &
                   Sturgeons Law & Advanced Races Coming to Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1985 1732-CDT
From: Dan <NICHOLS%CSL60%ti-csl.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: End of civilization novels

>        I have, in thinking of some of the books I have enjoyed
>over the last few years, realized there is a small sub-genre that I
>seem to enjoy.  It is the one where civilization is zapped (or at
>least totally screwed up) by a non-alien occurrence.  So far I have
>read Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and War Day.  I am currently
>reading The Floating Dragon, and have enjoyed the first half of the
>book.  Does anyone else enjoy this kind of Speculative Fiction?
>Brendan E. Boelke

I used to really enjoy this sub-genre (not to say I no longer do).
One of my very, very favorite books falls into this category. I
can't think of some of the others, but will look later. I definitely
would recommend "Malevil" by Robert Merle. I thought it was
outstanding.
                           Dan Nichols

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 08:34 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: authors and titles of books plus the joys of re-reading

Josh Susser (susser.pasa@xerox.arpa) writes
>By the way, has anybody else read "Planet of Treason"?  Anybody
>remember who it's by?  I read this quite a few years ago.  At that
>time, I thought it was quite good.  I'd like to read it again if I
>could find it.

The book is by Orson Scott Card. It came out about five years ago (I
think) and I also thought it was very good. I felt the premise was
stretching credibility somewhat, but the story was more than good
enough to make me forget about that.

Jim Garnner writes
>One of the oddest premises for a novel I've ever read is Fred
>Hoyle's "October the First is Too Late" (possibly "October the
>Second is Too Late" -- it's been years since I read it).

It's October First is Too Late.

Rich Strebent writes
>A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and
>Everything" or something close to this (my library is at home,
>though there are days I wish I kept it at my office !!!).  There
>was a movie by the same name that was a fairly decent rendition of
>the book.

Another good book. It's by John D. MacDonald (of Travis Mcgee (sp?)
fame).

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1985 21:23:01 PDT
Subject: The Omega Man
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

Has anyone else seen The Omega Man?  This movie was based (loosely)
on Richard Matheson's classic I AM LEGEND. The book is pretty good
as it evokes an eerie feeling of paranoia. However, I think the
movie is really a classic that has been overlooked by lay-critics
and the science fiction population in general. It turns the paranoia
of the book into more of a SF-suspense-melodrama.

Reasons why I think it is so good:

Charlton Heston plays in one of his best roles, almost a
  solo effort.
A beautiful musical score by Ron Grainer, composer of
  the theme music for the 1960's TV program THE PRISONER
The screenplay is tight and moves along extremely fast.
Anthony Zerbe plays a really neat villain.

It is in re-release this month on THE MOVIE CHANNEL and I just got a
nice uncut version of it. Even after not having seen it for 10
years, I am still impressed by it

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 30 Jun 1985 19:42:18-PDT
From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Heisenberg may have slept here)
Subject: Review:  "Back to the Future"

                        "Back to the Future"
                    A film review by Roger Goun

Remember all those time travel stories you gobbled up in Amazing
Stories and Galaxy when you were a kid?  Well, have I got a deal for
you!  "Back to the Future", Steven Spielberg's latest epic, pays
fond tribute to almost every hackneyed skiffy time travel plot ever
conceived.  In addition to time travel, the film has weird devices,
silly special effects, a mad scientist, a nerd, bad science, a love
story, a skeptical hero, pseudo-alien monsters, and a couple of
plucky girls, with some foreign terrorists and a DeLorean sports car
thrown in for good measure.  Fortunately, it also has humor,
excitement, rock and roll, and a couple of good performances to
rescue it from the oblivion it might otherwise have deserved.

Marty (Michael J. Fox) is an ordinary kid in a small town who hangs
out with your typical wild-eyed mad scientist.  The M.S. has
invented a time machine, built into the aforementioned DeLorean, in
which he intends to travel into the future.  As fate would have it,
though, it is Marty who is transported, not into the future, but
thirty years into the past.  Most of the film involves his efforts
to undo the changes he has accidentally made to history, and to
return to 1985.  He is aided by the scientist, thirty years younger,
but still quite mad.

Fox, who plays the young capitalistic son in NBC's sitcom "Family
Ties", plays Marty strictly for laughs.  He manages to convey the
confusion of a teenager in a strange world, but his delivery is
often too glib in the quieter scenes.  The scientist (whose name
I've forgotten), is incredibly corny, as a proper mad scientist
should be.  He overacts so badly that you can't help but smile.

As is typical of Spielberg, there are a number of references to
other movies scattered throughout "Back to the Future".  A couple of
attaboys to the first person who spots the obscure reference to "Dr.
Strangelove" in the first few minutes of the action.

If you can suspend your disbelief well enough and long enough, "Back
to the Future" will keep you breathing fast and laughing often.  On
the zero- to five-star scale, it gets a three.  Go see it.

Roger Goun
ARPA:goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
     100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel: (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Maya and shape changing.
Date: 28 Jun 85 08:38:26 GMT

        Conservation of mass is a false concept since mass can be
converted into energy ,thus conservation of energy is the true law.
Any energy changes can be made in the fourth spacial dimension
without nukeing anyone. The only difference between Garth and Maya
is her ability to exchange mass in this way. Plenty of energy is
freely available and any excess energy can be dumped. Well that's my
theory.
        Anyone have any ideas as how Garth could do this?
        Can Maya only do this because she is an alien?
        How many strange alien powers did Spock use?
All this and much more in the next unexiting installment...

                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad sci-fi(and boring sci-fi?).Blakes Seven.
Date: 28 Jun 85 09:18:23 GMT

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>V: This is one of the easiest to fix.  When I watched the original
>2 part mini-series, I thought, "Wow, this is great!"  Then
>suddenly, in the second episode, they turned out to be lizards in
>human suits coming to eat us and steal our water.

        This may be the easiest to fix but basicly V is boring.  An
alien race out to conquer the Earth has been kicked around for
years. It is proof of how difficult it is to produce an original tv
sci-fi program nowadays. Even Galactica was interesting at times
(no, I have not lost my senses) and 1999 was rarely boring.
        What on Earth (or Moon) is a 'spindizzie'?

        And now for something completely different..BLAKE'S SEVEN.
I have been told that this hasn't been shown in the U.S. yet but the
networks should come to their senses soon. It was great, some
episodes were straight S.T. rip offs but otherwise the show was
superb. The plots were ingenious with lots of twists but you would
have to see it to understand. The last series (as usual) wasn't as
good.
        I think this deserves some discussion ,at least over here.

                                        Andy T.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 07:04:51-PDT
From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: More on spoilers

It is interesting that there are two entirely separate discussions
going on in SFL which relate so well: the one on the concept of
spoilers, and the one on Thomas Covenant.

Lee Gold's quote "Now he was Emperor of the galaxy, but what did it
all mean? ..." is something that I appreciate finding in books.
(The best current example of finding that type of thing in books is
in Bio of a Space Tyrant, by Piers Anthony.  His epilogues give away
nearly every major plot element, which is something I value in last
pages of books).

I read books for enjoyment.  Just that, nothing more.  (Sorry Davis
Tucker, but I am not looking for *DEEP MEANING* or *GREAT ART* when
I read, just a few moments of pleasure for my $2.95 plus sales tax.
My wife, an ex-English teacher, often comments on this).  The main
reason I want to know what happens is so that I can figure out
whether I want to read it in the first place.  If I am not going to
feel good when I finish, I won't read it.

Think back to the Lensman series.  Whatever else those books may be,
(to me) they are *FUN*.  A good read, enjoyable adventure, and I
feel good when I finish.

Having the hero be a contemptible cur (in Thomas Covenants case), or
having the hero lose everything with no hope of winning (again in
Thomas Covenant, but also in several of Stephen Kings books, notably
'Salems Lot and Cujo), is simply not enjoyable.  If I want examples
of incompetent or contemptible people, or even good people who lose
with no hope, all I have to do is turn on the evening news.

                                                Ken Moreau

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 08:34 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: the joys of re-reading

moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:

> To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who
> lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone
> manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it.  Otherwise the
> nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen
> seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out
> of it.
>   In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have
> the aliens landing and blowing away ever character you know about
> so far. . . .  the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost
> ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time through.

One is forced to wonder how you can stand life? Last time I checked,
most people have no idea what will happen next in their life or the
lives of their friends. Admittedly, more people will have a tendency
to get blown away (or have some other aweful thing happen to them)
in fiction than in real life, but awful things do happen in real
life. I'm not flaming you for your opinion, but it does raise some
interesting questions...

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time
Date: 28 Jun 85 06:26:01 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>The Pluterday concept is carried one step further in Dayworld,
>Phillip Jose Farmer's newest novel (only out in hard cover as far
>as I know).  The premise is that overpopulation has grown so
>rampant that the people of earth have been split into seven parts,
>each of which are allowed out only one day of the week.  (The rest
>of the time they're in suspended animation.)  Thus there are
>Tuesday people, Wednesday people, and so on.  There are also
>criminals called Daybreakers who don't go into suspended animation
>when they're supposed to.  Not the usual sort of thing you think of
>for "time control", but still a controlled time situation.
>                               Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

This may be a new novel, but I'm sure I read a short story a long
time ago with exactly this situation.  I don't remember much, but
it's a man (say, a Wednesday person) who sees a picture of this
woman who uses the same room on her day (say, Tuesday) and decides
he's madly in love and wants to change days to meet her.  Anyone
remember this?
                                Muffy

------------------------------

From: kallis@pen.DEC
Subject: re: Sturgeon's Law
Date: 27 Jun 85 19:28:45 GMT

>There have been references to Theodore Sturgeon recently, and also
>a few citations on the famous "Sturgeon's Law".  I would like to
>trace down the actual origin ..."

I cannot say whether it was the *first* time Ted uttered it, but I
first heard the Law enunciated by him when he was the guest at a
meeting of a New York City fan group in 1956 (or 1957 -- I didn't
mark down the date at the time).  I was a college kid at the time,
and in those days, we were all wrapped up in the idea of the
Sanctity of *all* SF.  I'll try to reconstruct this as close as I
can.

        After a few opening remarks, Ted said, "People are always
criticizing the quality of science fiction.  Well, I have to say,
honestly, that 90 percent of science fction is crap."  He paused for
a second, which allowed us all to register shock, then he went on:
"But then, 90 percent of *all* literatue is crap.  However, science
fiction is the only form of literature that is judged by its crap."
please recall that in the mid- to late 1950s, "crap" was a lot
stronger word than it is nowadays.  And if it wasn't the very first
time he made that utterance publicly, it had to be one of the early
versions.  Over the years, it became broadened and refined.

The shock value was there: having a leading science fiction writer
apparently biting the hand that fed him (though saving it with a
sort of judo-twist in the next sentence) was to us in those days
like discovering that our parents were hookers, or worse.

Sturgeon's Law has a great deal of validity, and there are
theoreticians who have tried to extend it beyond its bounds.  It was
meant to apply to literary works, not to the cosmos -- although
certainly elements of that are, as Winston Smith might have said,
double-plus ungood.  But even the Zoroastrians and Manachees gave
the continuum a 50-50 split.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

------------------------------

From: watmath!bstempleton@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get : slaves
Date: 27 Jun 85 15:49:45 GMT

You bet they would come for slaves.  Just because we think we are
advanced morally past the desire for slaves, doesn't mean other
races would follow the same track.

Highly advanced technology can do much, but it never replaces
personal service.  (Of course, if you can make an android with a
turing-test AI program then there is an argument that this is a
living being and should not be enslaved, too)

At any rate, until you have perfect AI, nothing can match a slave as
the ultimate luxury.  And with a cousin race they can even be used
for sexual purposes.  Slaves are cheap - they can produce enough to
feed and house themselves and you can take all the rewards.  Yes,
they would come for slaves.

As for water, no chance.  Even if your own planet were somehow to
"dry out", water is very common.  If not, hydrogen is the most
common and oxygen is plentiful too.

And if you did have to leave your star system, you wouldn't come to
Earth to drag up the liquid water from the bottom of a gravity well.
There are whole asteroids and planetoids made of ice out there that
you could easily steal.  Why risk war to take it from Earth?

Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 85 1029-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #243
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 1 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 243

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams & Dick & Hogan & Lee & Rand &
                    The Oz Books & Alice Books & Upcoming Books,
            Television - Space: 1999,
            Miscellaneous - Spoilers & Advance Races Coming to Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman)
Subject: Re: Ford Prefect
Date: 29 Jun 85 21:35:24 GMT

>       I took the joke to be that no name is "especially
> inconspicuous" - i think that is amusing in itself. I mean, how
> seriously can you take a book with statements like "the ship hung
> in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't" and "the

And I thought I wasn't going to answer anything today...  I can't
resist pointing out that this particular line is not only valuable
as an inversion of the expected, but as an extremely (at least to
me) vivid simile.  The picture of bricks hanging in the sky
instantly appears in the mind, despite its non-correspondence with
reality, and conveys clearly the image of the impossible Vogon
ships.  It was when I found this line, in fact, that I realized that
the author was NOT just a smug, self-indulgent weirdness apostle,
but quite a good writer. I realized that I could go on with the book
without the fear of reaching the end but not the point.  I think the
analogy with Carroll is well taken, precisely because of this
element of artistry as well as insanity.

                               dsf
                      (Dawn Sharon/the Speaker)

I forgot the first analogy that comes to my mind: Oscar Wilde's "Her
hair went quite gold with grief" is different from Thurber's
indictment of typosetters, "A stitch in time saves none" because the
inversion is also a meaningful statement about society (not a very
deep one) as opposed to a statement created for the sake of the
inversion alone.  (Or a statement unintentionally created, like the
one that set Thurber off in the first place: the misprinting of a
line of his so that it became, "The gates of Hell shall now
prevail".  But I digress, or didn't anyone notice?)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 85 21:04:11 EDT
Subject: Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said
From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa

The Mabou Mines Theatre Company is doing an adaptation of Philip K.
Dick's ``Flow my tears, the policeman said'' here in Boston at the
Boston Shakespeare Company.

The MMTC, a New York City theatre troupe, combines high-tech
histrionics with sound dramatic skills.  A couple of the people I
saw it with remarked that parts reminded them of Laurie Anderson.
Everyone I saw it with enjoyed it, and I didn't notice anyone in the
audience leaving the theatre mumbling disatisfiedly under their
breath, which, considering the experimental nature of the piece, is
kind of remarkable.  Also, I saw it with a couple of people who had
never read the book (or any other PKD), and they felt that they
understood what was going on in the play.

They've combined slides, electronic music, and action on the stage,
into a reasonably good adaptation of the book (which means, of
course, that it's messy and loud and confusing and the audience is
always disoriented, which I think is pretty faithful to the original
novel (I'm not sure even PKD knew what was going on at times...)).
While the production is a bit uneven in parts (some parts seem a bit
slow, others have simply TOO MUCH going on at once, making the
action on the stage too chaotic, and making it impossible to hear
some of the reasonably important dialogue), the acting was
consistently good, and the ending more than makes up for any flaws
in the directing.

WOW, what a lyrical, beautiful, moving, ending--it's a shame PKD is
not around to see it.

It's kind of a musical (``There is always someone in the
pizzeria...''), in a disorienting sort of way.

It's being in developed in Boston, for a later run in New York.
With luck it will become a hit Broadway play and then a movie.  Sure
beats ``Bladerunner'' as a faithful adaptation of a PKD novel...

------------------------------

From: stew%lhasa@harvard.ARPA
Date: 28 Jun 85 23:17 EDT
Subject: Hogan's THRICE UPON A TIME

Jamie Zawinski mentioned this book, and, having recently reread it,
I want to add my recommendation.  The characters are real, the prose
is eminently readable, and the science, including the theory of time
that Jamie mentioned, is amazing.  He even manages to make a pretty
pointed political statement, but more on that would be a spoiler.
In my opinion, Hogan's THRICE UPON A TIME is a must read.

Stew Rubenstein
rubenstein@harvard.arpa
{ihnp4, ut-sally, seismo} ! harvard ! rubenstein

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (Diaz)
Subject: Tanith Lee
Date: 18 Jun 85 16:04:16 GMT

Tanith Lee is a British writer who leans to sword/sorcery and
fantasy (excellent writing, I might add.)  However, about a year
ago, I acquired a copy of her book THE SILVER METAL LOVER, and loved
it.  I have seen lists of titles by her that might be in the same
genre (ie, not s/s); in particular, DON'T BITE THE SUN, and SAPPHIRE
WINE.  I haven't been able to find them!  Has anyone read them?  How
were they?

Jean Marie Diaz

------------------------------

Date: Thu 27 Jun 85 20:29:56-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand's works

>> book but also of THE FOUNTAINHEAD, Rand's SF novella, and her
>> play.  It may
>
>I thought I'd read every piece of fiction she ever wrote, but
>perhaps I'm wrong.  Are you referring to ANTHEM?

As far as I know, Ayn Rand wrote five long pieces of fiction:
  3 novels: Atlas_Shrugged, The_Fountainhead, and We_the_Living;
  a novella: Anthem (about as much SF as Brave_New_World); and
  a play: ``The Night of January 16th''.

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 85 14:47:10 EDT
From: Kevin.Dowling@CMU-RI-ROVER
Subject: OZ

Dover Publications has a version of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz that
has the original illustrations by W. W. Denslow. Baum and Denslow
also collaborated on Dot and Merryland but apparently had a falling
out and John Rea Neill took over for the rest of the Oz books.

The dover book has an intro by Martin Gardner which discusses the
background of Baum and the Oz stories. Also there is a Baum fantasy
bibleography at the end of the book which has a brief synopsis of
each book Baum wrote.

Ruth Plumly THompson, as mentioned, wrote 19 oz books,3 by Neill, 2
by Jack Snow and 1 by Rachel Cosgrove. There was also one by Colonel
Frank Joslyn Baum, Baum's son. (The Laughing Dragon) which is a
scarce collector's item.

Before The Wiz came to broadway, Baum wrote the book and lyrics for
a musical comedy in 1902 which was a big hit. They changed Toto to a
calf named Imogene though, cause it was hard for an actor to diguise
himself as a little black dog!

I have not read most of the oz books, but as I glanced through the
bibliography, I enjoyed seeing a number of SF concepts in the
stories including, tunnels through the center of the earth, undersea
cities, automatons, teleportation, Baum had other books dealing with
halting of time (American Fairy Tales). Baum actaully wrote a SF
novel called the Master Key, definitely dated, but interesting where
the Demon of Electricity provides a boy with six electrical wonders.

In Lost Princess of Oz, The Pink Bear is a wind-up automaton capable
of answering any questions., In the Tin Woodsman of Oz there is a
Chopfyte, a composite man assembled from parts of the Tin Woodsmn
and Tin Soldiers original bodies and what is termed an interesting
conversation between the Tin Woodman and his original head!

I enjoyed the Return to Oz greatly. The Claymation effects were
fabulous.  I think this was the same person who did the prize
winning claymation "Closed Mondays" which was on the Internation
Animation Festival (PBS series) which was hosted by Jean Marsh
(Princess Momba)

nivek

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 85 22:13:34 EDT
Subject: ``Alice through the eye of a needle,'' Gilbert Adair
From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa

After seeing the positive review of this book in sf-lovers, I rushed
right out to buy it.

Nano-review: read Miss Manners, instead.

Micro-review: wait 'til it comes out in paperback, and get it to
read to your four-year-old kid.

Review: a pale imitation of Lewis Carroll.  Too many authorial
intrusions in the manner of: ``I sure hope YOU understand what I
mean, dear Reader, I certainly don't!'' Not enough puns.  There's
some good level confusion stuff (particularly the Emu's
typographical poem), but overall I found the whole thing somewhat
tiresome.

I think Douglas Hofstadter should take up writing ``Alice'' books.
Or maybe Rudy Rucker.  Or maybe they should collaborate (Rucker
could restrain Hofstadter's cute-glands and Hofstadter could
restrain Rucker's glands (although a soft-core Alice might be kind
of interesting... Wasn't there a hard-core Alice done once?).  Maybe
Martin Gardner should drop by occasionally while they're at it.  Or
Dan Dennett.

I remember a long time ago the ``Chicago Seed'' (probably the most
beautiful of the underground papers) ran a parody of Alice in
Wonderland where a good deal of the wonder was chemically
stimulated.

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@topaz.arpa (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: Upcoming books (from July 1985 LOCUS)
Date: 28 Jun 85 18:12:40 GMT

Anthony, Pier          "Race Against Time"
Auel, Jean             "Mammoth Hunters"
                          (Clan of Cave Bear)             this year
Bischoff, David        "Wraith Board" (The Gaming Magi)
Chalker, Jack L.       "The Messiah Choice"  HC                 May
Dickson, Gordon        "Forward!"
Harrison, Harry        "One Step From Earth"                    Sept
Robinson, Kim Stanley  "The Memory of Whiteness"  HC            Sept
Robinson, Spider       "Callahan's Secret"                   turned in
Silverberg, Robert     "Tom O'Bedlam"  HC                       July
Silverberg, Robert     "Sailing to Byzantium"
Tepper, Sheri S.       "Jinian Footseer" (Land of the True Game) Sept
Van Vogt, A.E.         "Null-A Three"  HC                        July

Jean Auel is suing the producers of the movie, "Clan of the Cave
Bear", for not giving her final approval as contracted.  Story line
changed and inaccurate.  Seeking $40 million damages (including
$500K for delays to third book in series)

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, Univ. of Toronto
USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!utcsri!uturing!perelgut
CSNET:  perelgut@Toronto

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: Space: 1999 books
Date: 27 Jun 85 20:43:00 GMT

From Bob Gray (bobg@cstvax.UUCP):
> There is a book (by E.C. TUBB, I think his name was, I can't
> remember the title) which tells a story made up of two episodes
> from the series and a story claimed to be a possible "Final
> episode".  This was writen after the series had ended and explains
> what actually happened in the explosion.  ...  As I remember the
> moon was squeezed by the explosion and forced into a strange
> fourth-dimensional orbit. This is how it got out of the solar
> system so fast.  The moon eventually ends up back in it's original
> (present) orbit with a convenient explanation for all the large
> number of planets they encountered.

and from Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>:
> Although the TV series never really did give a credible
> explanation for the speed with which they seemed to wander all
> over the universe, there was an associated book which told a
> complete story from the moons blasting out of orbit right through
> to an eventual return to earth many tens of years later. I can't
> recall the author but the atmosphere created by the book and the
> far better scientific accuracy was way above anything the TV
> series ever managed. I won't spoil the ending though for those who
> may want to read it.

I don't know what these guys have been reading, but I don't think it
was Space: 1999, unless it was a British publication that never made
it over here.  I don't think that's likely because I have gotten
things directly from British dealers at conventions.  If such a book
does exist, I'd love to find it.  The show was novelized and some
extra tie-in novels were written between the two seasons.  I have
all of the following books and I checked them over last weekend,
none have the plot described above.

The Making of Space: 1999 by Tim Heald

Series 1 novelizations:
(all episodes except Earthbound, these weren't done as short
stories, like the Star Trek episode novelizations, but add
connections from one episode to the next)

1. Breakaway - E. C. Tubb
        Breakaway
        A Matter of Life and Death
        A Ring Around the Moon
        The Black Sun
2. Moon Odyssey - John Rankine
        Alpha Child
        The Last Sunset
        Voyager's Return
        Another Time, Another Place
3. The Space Guardians - Brain Ball
        Missing Link
        Force of Life
        Guardian of Piri
4. Collision Course - E. C. Tubb
        Collision Course
        Full Circle
        End of Eternity
        Death's Other Dominion
5. Lunar Attack - John Rankine
        War Games
        The Troubled Spirit
        The Last Enemy
        Space Brain
6. Astral Quest - John Rankine
        The Infernal Machine
        Mission of the Darians
        Dragon's Domain
        The Testament of Arkadia

Original novels, all end with the moon continueing through space
7. Alien Seep - E. C. Tubb
8. Android Planet - John Rankine
9. Rogue Planet - E. C. Tubb
10. Phoenix of Megaron - John Rankine

Series 2 noveliztions:          (all episodes except The Taybor)
all written by Michael Butterworth
1. Planets of Peril
        The Metamorph
        The AB Chrysalis
        The Rules of Luton
        New Adam, New Eve
2. Mind-Breaks of Space
        Brian the Brain
        The Mark of Archanon
        The Catacombs of the Moon
        One Moment of Humanity
3. The Space-Jackers
        Seed of Destruction
        A Matter of Balance
        The Exiles
        The Beta Cloud
4. The Psychomorph
        The Lambda Factor
        The Bringers of Wonder
5. The Time Fighters
        Space Warp
        Dorzak
        Devil's Planet
        The Seance Spector
6. The Edge of the Infinite
        All that Glisters
        Journey to Where
        The Dorcons
        The Immunity Syndrome - ended with the possibility that the
                                Alphans stayed to settle this planet

Mary Anne Espenshade
{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Telling the Plot
Date: 26 Jun 85 22:49:23 GMT

As has been commented, if a book is not worthwhile after one has
been told the plot, it was not worthwhile before.  But that does not
mean not knowing the plot has no value.  Many of us *enjoy* the
suspense of not knowing what comes next, and this adds to our
enjoyment the first time we read a book (if we are otherwise
enjoying it).

There is nothing wrong with not enjoying this; many people obviously
do not.  Indeed, whoever started this discussion specifically
disliked the suspense of not knowing what was going to happen.  But
you should be aware that giving away the plot does detract from the
pleasure for some of us, and insert spoiler warnings as called for.
After all, no one's enjoyment is diminished by seeing the words
"spoiler warning" in an article.

------------------------------

From: ur-laser!tomk@topaz.arpa (Tom Kessler)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get : slaves
Date: 28 Jun 85 20:17:22 GMT

Also if you take water from asteroids (in the form of ice) you don't
have to pay the penalty in energy for overcoming gravity. Heck why
not just tow a couple of "stroids" home.

Tom Kessler {allegra |seismo }!rochester!ur-laser!tomk
Laboratory for Laser Energetics
Phone: (716)- 275 - 5101
250 East River Road
Rochester, New York 14623

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 85 1221-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #244
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 244

Today's Topics:

                 Administrivia - Mid-year Landmark,
                 Books - Bass & Donaldson & Sladek (2 msgs) &
                         The Oz Books & SF Poll,
                 Television - Star Trek & Roddenbery &
                         Battlestar Galactica,
                 Miscellaneous - How to Fix Bad SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 85 12:10:41 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Mid-year landmark

   On my way in to work the other day I realized that here it is the
middle of the year and already I have done 243 issues of SF-LOVERS!
I sincerely hope you have had as much fun reading them as I have
had.  If the amount of mail pouring in continues, by the end of the
year I will have done nearly 500 digests (either that or my fingers
   I would like to also take this opportunity to remind all of
you that the sf-lovers archive here at Rutgers has a lot of stuff
that you may enjoy reading.  We have all of the digests since the
very beginning of course, but there are some other contributions as
well.

T:<SFL>

Down-in-flames.txt      ;Larry Niven destroys his universe
Drwho.guide             ;episode guide to Dr. Who
Galactica.guide         ;guide to Battlestar Galactica
Hitch-Hikers-Guide-to-the-net.txt       ;a very funny parody
Hugos.txt               ;a listing of all the Hugo winners
Klingonaase.txt         ;how to talk to a Klingon
Lost-in-space.guide     ;need I say it?
Nebulas.txt             ;all the Nebula award winners
Outerlimits.guide       ;another episode guide
Star-trek.guide         ;yet another
The-Enchanted-Duplicator.txt ;an interesting read to say the least
                               (look ma, no spoilers!)
Twilight-zone.guide     ;and still another episode guide

All of these files are available to readers via the ANONYMOUS login
of FTP (PLEASE, no requests for mailing them to individuals. The
time I can devote to this is very limited!).

And now, on with the show......

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 85 20:39:11 EDT
Subject: The Eudaemonic Pie, by Thos. A. Bass
From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa

What happens when a bunch of techno-hippies decide to drop out of
grad school to take on roulette, armed with a KIM microcomputer
strapped to their waist?  The Eudaemonic Pie.

This book is too good not to be mentioned in the sf-lovers' forum,
and it contains a lot that would qualify it as reasonably good s.f.,
if it were only fiction: a bunch of Competent Men and Women, venture
into a bizarre alien society, where they apply their technical
know-how to a problem.  This is the story of how they solved the
problem, written in a gripping, lucid style reminiscent of Larry
Niven unspoiled by Jerry Pournelle.

AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST BOOK IN A TRILOGY!

Pick this book up in the bookstore, and read the first few pages of
the first chapter or introduction and see for yourself.  Wow, what
fun.

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Wounded Land series (Daughter of Regals)
Date: 27 Jun 85 14:58:29 GMT

> I think the title is _Daughter of Royals_
>       Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)

Close, but no cigar.  The title is "Daughter of Regals", and is
indeed an excellent read.  Especially the title story, and two
others, "Ser Visals Tale" and "Worthy of the Angel".  "Worthy of the
Angel" in particular is quite Zelaznyeqeue.

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 85 16:50:12 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: TIK-TOK by John Sladek

John Sladek's TIK-TOK (DAW, c1983, DAW edition June 1985) is a robot
whose 'asimov' circuits don't seem to function quite right.
Everyone in Tik-Tok's cheesy future takes it for granted that robots
can't misbehave, which is just as well because without these
obedient slaves their tottering civilization would collapse
instantly.  Tik-Tok can lie, steal and kill without the least
suspicion coming upon him, because who would expect that a mere
robot could perform these quintessentially human acts?

Tik-Tok's narrative is an out-and-out farce, with ample slapstick
and an abundance of parodies.  The story alternates between
Tik-Tok's grim upbringing (he was raised on a Mississippi plantation
and taught to sing excruciatingly bad imitation Stephen Foster
songs) and his brutal present (as he discovers that society rewards
his outrageously criminal behavior).  Woven through the story is a
dark and bitter cynicism, and many of the laughs will also make you
cringe; when I finished the book I was left with a distinctly
unpleasant aftertaste...  Of course this is exactly the kind of
tension which Sladek intended to produce, but that doesn't make it
any easier to assimilate.  In the end I'm not sure whether I enjoyed
the book, and I'm not even sure whether I was supposed to...  You
takes your chances if you buy it.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: rochester!rick@topaz.arpa (Rick Floyd)
Subject: Re: TIK-TOK by John Sladek
Date: 1 Jul 85 02:03:45 GMT

The future described in TIK-TOK is not a place that I would want to
live.  However, that doesn't affect my appreciation of Sladek's
ability to depict it. TIK_TOK is one of the more interesting
dystopias I have seen in recent years. But then, I have always had
something of a weak spot for farcical worlds.

rick floyd
rick@rochester.ARPA
seismo!rochester!rick

------------------------------

From: dcc1!unixcorn@topaz.arpa (math.c)
Subject: Re: Oz books
Date: 29 Jun 85 14:59:12 GMT

gjerawlins@watdaisy.UUCP (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) writes:
>unixcorn@dcc1.UUCP (math.c) writes:
>>year cycle that was so profitable for them. Ruth Plumly Thompson
>>fit the bill perfectly, she had grown up on the OZ books, was
>>already an author of childrens books and she needed the money to
>>support her mother and invalid sister.  The first book she wrote
>>was published under Baum's and her name (to promote continuity)
>>but was all her own work.
>
>       The "Reader's Guide to Fantasy" - Searls, Meacham &
>Franklin pg 27 states that "The Royal Book of Oz" (her first) was a
>work up by her of notes that Baum left his demise, so the
>accreditation would be proper (that is if this is correct - i have
>no information to the contrary).

 Sorry, should have posted my sources in the first article..  From
'The OZ Scrapbook' by David L. Greene and Dick Martin---

"Actually it was entirely the work of Miss Thompson. Despite Baum's
statement that he left material for the 1921 book, Miss Thompson
used no Baum notes for 'The Royal Book'."

Also, in reply to another poster, Ruth Plumly Thompson was NOT the
daughter of L.Frank Baum.

             unixcorn  (alias m. gould)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 1 Jul 85 02:56:39-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Series and Rawlins' List

               ^^^^^ Overlaps in Rawlins' List ^^^^^

In hopes of forstalling umpteen submissions on the topic, here is a
list of some quasi-duplications.  This does not consider stories
simply set in the same universe (e.g., Niven's, Schmitz', Cordwainer
Smith's, Lieber's, Varley's, etc.) as, ipso facto, "series".

SERIES and their COMPONENTS
  Adams:
        5 The Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy
        4 The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy SERIES
  Asprin:
        4 The Myth Adventures SERIES
        3 Another Fine Myth
  Bradley:
        4 The Darkover SERIES
        2 Thendara House
  Brust:
        7 The Vlad Taltos BOOKS
        2 Jhereg
  Dickson:
        5 Tactics of Mistake
        4 Soldier, Ask Not
        2 The Childe CYCLE
        2 Dorsai!
  Garrett:
        3 Too Many Magicians
        3 The Lord Darcy SERIES
  LeGuin:
        2 The Earthsea TRILOGY
        2 A Wizard of Earthsea
  Leiber:
        2 The Fafhard and the Grey Mouser SERIES
        2 Swords and Deviltry
        2 Swords Against Death
        2 The Swords of Lankhmar
  May:
        3 The Saga of the Pliocene Exile TETRALOGY
        3 The Many-Coloured Land
  McCaffrey:
        4 The Dragonriders of Pern TRILOGY
        2 Dragonflight
  McCaffrey:
        2 The Harper Hall of Pern TRILOGY
        2 Dragonsinger
  Piper:
        5 Little Fuzzy
        3 The Little Fuzzy SERIES
  Smith:
        3 The Skylark SERIES
        2 The Skylark of Space
  Varley:
        2 The Titan SERIES
        4 Titan
  Zelazny:
        5 The Chronicles of Amber PENTOLOGY
        5 Nine Princes in Amber

SERIES COMPONENTS
  Cherryh:
        2 The Dreamstone
        2 The Tree of Swords and Jewels
  Harrison:
        2 The Stainless Steel Rat
        2 The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat
  Laumer:
        3 Retief at Large
        2 Retief's War
  MacAvoy:
        3 Damiano
        2 Damiano's Lute
        2 Raphael

SINGLETONS from SERIES
  Clement:
        9 Mission of Gravity
  Clement:
        3 Needle
  Farmer:
        8 To Your Scattered Bodies Go
  Herbert:
       23 Dune
  Robinson:
        5 Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
  Stasheff:
        4 The Warlock in Spite of Himself

------------------------------

From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: 1**35
Date: 28 Jun 85 21:53:58 GMT

Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>The "one to the 35th power" line is from "Court Martial," and is
>uttered by Spock.  He's not under duress; he's explaining how much
>he has turned up the gain on an audio sensor, so as to detect the
>heartbeat of...well, any more would be a spoiler.

And Roddenberry often cites it as an example of a gross error that
slipped by him.  Certainly was.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 01 Jul 85 02:34:56 EDT
From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a

This is not actually from Herr Bader; it is from a friend.

1.  "The Questor Tapes" was a very interesting movie, certainly one
    that wasn't too predictable.  Remember, though, that Questor and
    his long line of creator/predecessors (drat! i can't remember
    the name of the one before him) were robots, and as such isn't
    *really* advanced-race-looking-over-us , but more like
    advanced-race-leaves- self-perpetuating-robots-to-guide-us.  Of
    course, I merely make a statement; I am certainly not quibbling
    with anyone's choice of words.

2.  I think there were *2* different movies by the name "Genesis II."
    If I remember correctly, one of them starred Mariette (sp?)
    Hartley (with two navels, both inzies) was watchable, and the
    other I found sort of boring.

3.  As for "Spectre," it is one of my favorite movies, along with
    "Equinox."  It did indeed star Robert Culp, of Greatest American
    Hero (no comment on that series) fame, as a guy who went around
    reading books like the necronomicon (I don't remember if he
    actually mentioned THAT one..)  and banishing demons.  A great
    scene was when a rather attractive young lady appeared at his
    house, supposedly the sister of his friend.  She started putting
    all the charms on Herr Culp, but he stayed cool until he picked
    up one of your classic "rare ancient banned tomes of arcane
    knowledge" and threw it at the girl, exhorting something
    wonderful in one of your classic "rare and ancient arcane
    languages."  When it hit, she went up in flames, and Culp
    explained that he knew she was a succubus, because the guy's
    REAL sister had broken her glasses the day before or some such.

    Culp and his friend end up in an old mansion somewhere in the
    England - Wales area, and eventually discover the imprisoning
    place of Asmodeus or Astaroth (it's been years -- forgive me),
    etc....

If someone out there would be nice enough to answer two questions
for me, I would be grateful:

1)  Was Genesis II the movie with the electric cattle prod things?

2) I have seen the movie "The Dunwich Horror" which was supposed to
   be based on Lovecraft's story of the same name, but really
   wasn't. (Stella Stevens in a Lovecraft movie......), but a book I
   have says that there have been "at least four" movies made out of
   Lovecraft.  Anyone know what they were?  Back in the mid
   seventies somewhere there was a movie called YOG (also released
   under some other name) which involved this alien energy life form
   than hitchhiked to Earth on a "space capsule" and proceded to
   throw all sorts of huge monsters at the nearest land, including a
   giant crab and finally a huge octopus.  This movie seems sort of
   Lovecraft - inspired to me.  Does anyone know if this was
   intentional?  Has anyone ever seen the album of Lovecraft that
   Roddy McDowell did?

Anthony A. Datri
AD0R@cmu-cc-tb
or maybe ad0r%cmu-cc-tb@cmu-cs-a
or just bader@cmpsya

------------------------------

From: omen!caf@topaz.arpa (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
Subject: Re: Space 1999 : SF-on-TV in general
Date: 29 Jun 85 12:25:50 GMT

jam@dcl-cs.UUCP (John A. Mariani) writes:
>... According to that rag, B-G was the best thing *ever* and loved
>by all. So maybe some of you good-guys in the states would like to
>let us Europeans know what the true feelings re B-G were.

BattleStar Garlicta had its share of hooters, nost notably "Fire in
Space" where a fire is raging out on control in the BattleStar.  I
shan't ruin your fun by pointing out the obvious.

B-G mostly shows up these days as "movies", each of which is edited
from two or three one hour shows.  They are worth watching, no
matter how variable the quality.

Of course, I must warn you that I enjoy Bockaroo Bonzai, Dr. Who,
Star Warz, Dune, Star Trek, Outer Limits, Godzilla, and many
episodes of Twilight Zone. But, none of them hold a candle to the
creation scene in Bride of Frankenstein.

Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX
...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf   CIS:70715,131
Omen Technology Inc
17505-V NW Sauvie Island Road Portland OR 97231
Voice: 503-621-3406
Modem: 503-621-3746 (Hit CR's for speed detect)

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF
Date: 29 Jun 85 02:08:20 GMT

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>Now this is an interesting problem.  Several shows have come out
>with reasonable acting, drama, comedy, effects, production and
>REALLY STUPID SCRIPTS.  What I would like to know is how to
>communicate to producers like Glen Larson et al how to fix their
>series so they become classics instead of turkeys.

>Starlost:
>  The premise was fine, the execution was terrible on this one.
>There have been lots of good "lost ark in space" novels, so they
>have no excuses.

But here you hit the nail *right* on the head, Brad! *They* do not
need excuses; *they* have probably NEVER read any of the "lost ark
in space" novels! *They* are NOT SF writers or SF lovers -- they
just do not care! Interesting that your comment is connected with
the StarLost, a show created by Harlan Ellison, who does care. Its
the guys like Larson who screw up concepts. If you're interested,
get a copy of "Phoenix Without Ashes" by Ed Bryant, based on
Ellison's pilot script. It includes an article by Ellison describing
the screw-up of that pilot.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
Department of Computing,
Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: watmath!bstempleton@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad sci-fi
Date: 28 Jun 85 16:35:38 GMT

I still say you can't have good *interstellar* adventure without
FTL.  Sure you can fly planets and ark ships on long missions, but
that's really just one society, and there is not interstellar
commerce or meeting.

I won't go so far as to say it's all impossible, but about the only
way you could pull it off would be with ships that use artificial
gravity to pull 1000 gs, and have no concern about the rest of
society since it all vanishes behind them.  Better to use FTL.

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software, Waterloo, Ont. (519) 884-7473

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 85 1227-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #245
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 245

Today's Topics:

                    Films - Cocoon vs Lifeforce,
                    Miscellaneous - Spoilers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" (long)
Date: 26 Jun 85 08:23:04 GMT

     I saw "Lifeforce" and "Cocoon" on the same day (plus two
Japanese movies in between, but that's another story), and they've
got my vote for improbable double feature of the summer.  That they
were released on the same day is almost bizarre.  Consider:
"Lifeforce" is a tale of malevolent aliens who come down to earth
and suck the life out of people.  "Cocoon" is the story of
benevolent aliens who come down to earth and rejuvenate people.
"Lifeforce" models itself on "Alien" and "Invasion of the Body
Snatchers", while "Cocoon" decorously steals from "Close Encounters
of the Third Kind" and "ET".  Here we have representatives of two of
the more popular film science fiction themes, duking it out toe to
toe.  "Cocoon" is the winner by a knockout.

     When you come right down to it, neither film has an ounce of
originality to it.  Scenes and motifs are stolen left and right from
earlier films.  You can have a lot of fun at either one watching
specifically for where you've seen this bit or that shot before.
"Cocoon's" idea of being breathtakingly original is to use old
people instead of kids.  This kind of twist is the stuff of
legendary (or is that infamous?) Hollywood meetings, where some guy
wearing gold chains and a loud shirt with an open collar jumps up
and shouts, "I've got it!"  "Lifeforce" doesn't have any intention
at all of being original, either.  Not one element is new, not one
twist appears that we don't expect.

     Faced with such a stunning display of uninventiveness in script
and story, "Lifeforce" and "Cocoon" must get by on style.  Here's
where "Cocoon" pulls out in front.  Ron Howard, director of
"Cocoon", really knows how to make an old turn look new again.  As
my mind tucked away instances of things "Cocoon" was doing over
again, it also noted, "but that's a very interesting variation".
Howard doesn't have a strong personal style, but he does have a lot
of intelligence and a feel for what will and will not work.  His
last couple of films have reminded me a bit of those great old
Hollywood hacks, Michael Curtiz and Victor Fleming.  No one writes
dissertations about them or scholarly articles analyzing their
style, but if you made up a list of your ten favorite films, there's
a good chance that one or more films by each of these gentlemen
would appear.  (Curtiz, among many other films, directed
"Casablanca" and "Yankee Doodle Dandy" and co-directed "The
Adventures of Robin Hood", my own choice of the most beautiful color
film ever made.  Fleming had a very good year in 1939, when he
directed "The Wizard of Oz" and "Gone With the Wind".)  Their
hallmark, like many other studio directors, was that their films
were competent, professional jobs which drew from the material, not
their personalities.  Howard looks like the same kind of director.
He knows what can be done to make material fly, even if it isn't
material that he feels deeply for.  (A good example of the other
kind of great director is Steven Spielberg, whose films are
intensely personal.  Alfred Hitchcock and John Ford are the classic
examples.)

     "Lifeforce" was directed by Tobe Hooper, whose one undisputed
positive credit is "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre".  (He received
credit for directing "Poltergeist", but rumor states that Spielberg
had as much or more to do with how the film came out.)  Based on
this, one would expect that Hooper would play to his strengths.  He
knows horror.  He knows how to build up a shock scene, he knows how
much he has to show an audience and how much he should suggest
without showing.  He knows when to build up suspense and when to
back off.  Alas, Hooper rarely chooses to play "Lifeforce" as a
horror movie with science fiction overtones, but rather as a science
fiction film which occasionally dips into horror.  The result is a
few good horror scenes and a lot of mediocre sf.  Hooper even
shortchanges some of the horror scenes, playing them almost
perfunctorily.  If he was trying to demonstrate his range, his
ability to work outside of the horror genre, and this does seem to
be his goal, he has failed.  He should have stolen even more from
"Alien".

     The difference between the two films can be seen at almost any
level, really, from the script on up.  The script of "Lifeforce" is
badly constructed, by any standard.  We start out on a space shuttle
out examining Halley's comet.  They discover an alien spacecraft.
Now, seeing as how the craft was obviously designed by H.R. Geiger,
and that someone on the shuttle must have seen "Alien", you'd think
that extreme caution would be the order of the day.  Well, no.  Ok,
the shuttle crew does something really stupid and we're prepared to
see them get their's, in best horror film fashion.  At this point
though, "Lifeforce" chooses to cut away to the shuttle arriving in
Earth orbit, sans crew but with some passengers it didn't go up
with.  The film has lost invaluable shocks here, but that's
forgivable.  What's unforgivable is it's insistence on flashbacks to
what happened, flashbacks which aren't even very well played.  From
this point onwards, almost every character in the film acts in an
incredibly stupid manner, until the film plays out to a cheat of a
climax, in that we were told that certain actions would have certain
results.  Those actions have totally different results, for reasons
never explained but suspiciously resembling a desire to produce a
sequel.  Someone forgot to remind the filmmakers that one only needs
to worry about a sequel if one produced a satisfactory film in the
first place.  The climax is flat and unsatisfying, leaving one
puzzled but with little desire to see what happens next.

     The script of "Cocoon" doesn't cover new ground, but it does
tromp the old, familiar turf in an assured manner.  The dialog is
crisp, the characters mostly well delineated, the gaps of logic not
huge.  The two related subplots, the rejuvenation of some people in
a Florida home for the aged and the mysterious activities of a
group of people out in the middle of the ocean, are nicely crosscut
and merge in a natural fashion.  While certain twists do suggest a
desire to do a sequel, they modestly murmur "sequel", rather than
screaming "SEQUEL!!!!!" at the top of their metaphoric lungs, as is
the case in "Lifeforce".

     The performances in the two films are also at contrast.  The
cast of "Lifeforce" isn't terribly distinguished (though Frank
Finlay once did a terrific Iago opposite Olivier's Othello).  Steven
Railsback is a very good actor, but Hollywood doesn't know what to
do with him.  He's been given three good parts in the last decade,
Charles Manson in "Helter Skelter", the title role in "The Stunt
Man", and the lead in "Lifeforce".  His performance in "Lifeforce"
isn't up to his other two, but that is largely because the material
isn't as good.  Railsback is strong in the part, and when he is
speaking the lines, some of the plot inconsistencies momentarily
disappear.  The rest of the cast, Finlay, Peter Firth, and many
slightly familiar faces, almost to a man give stiff-upper-lip style
British performances.  Very professional, to be sure, but not
terribly exciting.

     "Cocoon", on the other hand, is very well cast.  There isn't a
bad performance in the film, and almost all of the cast has
something special to add.  I was particularly pleased with the
performances of Wilford Brimley (as the ringleader of the old folks)
and Brian Dennehy (the alien in charge).  Brimley is natural and
very sympathetic.  Dennehy, out from under his usual villainous
brute role, displays great intelligence and sensitivity.  Also
excellent are Jessica Tandy, in the best of the older women's roles,
Hume Cronyn as an aged husband with tendencies to stray, Don Ameche
as a ladies' man whose spirit is still willing even if the flesh is
weak, and Jack Gilford as a skeptical old fogey who stubbornly
refuses to believe in miracles.  Maureen Stapleton and Gwen Verdon
are given relatively little to do.  The younger members of the cast
include Steve Guttenberg, a little frantic at times for my tastes;
Tawny Welch, Raquel Welch's daughter, more beautiful than her mother
and very talented; and Barret Oliver, as Brimley's grandson. (I
wonder if Oliver, who had the leads in "The Neverending Story" and
"D.A.R.Y.L", will get to play a normal boy in a non-sf/fantasy story
before puberty kills his career?)

     Both "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" are special effects movies.
Special effects form important components of the concepts behind the
pictures.  While I can picture "Cocoon" without its special effects,
"Lifeforce" really needs them.  Thus, it is odd that, despite the
relative importance of effects to the two pictures and despite the
fact that "Lifeforce's" budget was about $7 million more than
"Cocoon's", the effects in "Cocoon" are generally more effective and
convincing than those in "Lifeforce".  Some of the spacecraft model
work in the latter movie isn't very good, and lots of lightshow
stuff seems pretty arbitrary, being used mostly to display what John
Dykstra and company can do.  The effects of "Cocoon", by contrast,
are well-integrated and pretty believable.  I did find certain
spacecraft shots towards the end to be a bit amusing in an
unintentional way, as I could practically hear the Industrial Light
and Magic folks saying to themselves, "Now what spaceship special
effects gimmicks didn't we use on "ET"?"  The best effects in
"Lifeforce" are a combination of makeup and puppetry, and these are
quite persuasive.  Interestingly, "Cocoon" features a creature which
bears more than a passing resemblance to those in "Lifeforce".  The
notable point here is that the former film effectively uses the
creature for pathos, while the latter uses it for shock, and almost
the same creature works for both purposes, an illustration that
presentation is everything.  "Cocoon" also wins in the category of
special effects, then, but neither films' effects stand up to what I
think is the best special effects work so far this summer, Will
Vinton's Claymation in "Return to Oz".  (And this Claymation isn't
nearly as versatile and amusing as that in Vinton's own Mark Twain
feature, due out this fall.)

     Considering that both films' budgets hover around or above the
$20 million level, it should come as no surprise that both are
technically accomplished.  The photography in "Cocoon" gets the nod
over that in "Lifeforce", simply on the basis of variety.  Neither
film sports a particularly distinguished score, but both are
serviceable.  One of the most unexpected aspects of "Lifeforce" is
hearing Henry "Moon River" Mancini proving that he, too, can imitate
John Williams.

     Between them, "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" display three of the
oldest and most familiar concepts in drama: pageant, pathos, and
melodrama. (Note that I am not using any of these words in a
pejorative sense, but in their original meanings, as descriptive
terms for components of drama.)  Pageant, back in Shakespearean
times, used to consist of marching around small armies on stage and
showing off richly dressed kings and their courts.  Modern audiences
are harder to please, since film and television have taken them
places where ordinary people could never go before.  Now, pageant
requires either incredible opulence or dazzling special effects.
The point about pageant, then and now, is that its only real purpose
is to awe the viewer.  Both "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" have their
moments of successful pageant.

     "Cocoon" also has a strong component of pathos and a little
melodrama, but not much.  (Some comedy, too.)  Dying spouses,
children wrenched from their grandparents, friendly aliens in peril
- this is the stuff of modern pathos.  "Cocoon's" greatest success
is in the area of pathos.  Ron Howard milks it for all it's worth,
politely demanding that there will not be a dry eye in the house.
Before people get too overwhelmed by "Cocoon", though, it's
worthwhile to remember that lightweight pathos is really what we're
getting, not very much real human drama (though Jack Gilford has a
moment or two).  The fantastic setting and the handling of the film
really lightly brush the surface of the heart.  "Cocoon" does not
reach very deep.  The melodramatic component of "Cocoon" is largely
held to the ending, and isn't executed with as much conviction as
the rest of the picture.  I'd guess that Ron Howard, too, is getting
a bit tired of the race by the aliens and their friends against the
evil/ignorant/unthinking forces of the government.  This device
deserves to be retired for a few years.

     "Lifeforce" hasn't an ounce of pathos, and this lack works
against it.  Hooper tries to get by only with lots of pageant and
melodrama.  The first is moderately successful, the latter only
intermittently works.  As long as Hooper tries to shock, the
melodrama works.  His attempts to make the film succeed on the
levels of mystery and suspense fail.  The device used in
"Lifeforce's" finale, the last minute, one or two man dash to save
the city/world/universe before total destruction occurs, still has
some life left in it, being one of the mainstays of modern cinema,
but Hooper doesn't find how to tap its remaining vitality.  A
notable lack of humor in "Lifeforce" is also debilitating, while
some good comic bits serve to give "Cocoon" a little variety.

     Fundamentally, "Cocoon" is a winner and "Lifeforce" is
marginal.  Howard gets to direct whatever he wants next, Hooper's
career is in some trouble.  "Cocoon" makes a bundle, "Lifeforce"
might break even (though, since its break even point comes at around
$60 million, this is in doubt).  Tristar thanks the gods that it
backed "Rambo", so that it will have at least one hit to tide it
through the summer, 20th Century Fox breaths easy in the knowledge
that even if its other summer films flop, it will make enough off
"Cocoon" to keep the stockholders happy.  You'll probably like
"Cocoon", you are much less likely to enjoy "Lifeforce".

Peter Reiher
reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
{...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner)
Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers
Date: 27 Jun 85 16:21:33 GMT

Ken Moreau writes:
>Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel
>the way you do?

Well, I like surprises.  I find that they are one of the things that
make reading fiction enjoyable; a totally predictable book would, to
me, be a waste of time to read unless the author was a *superb*
craftsman/woman in other ways and could keep me spellbound with
characterizations, etc.

I reread books, but only after enough time has elapsed that not
every detail about the plot and characters is still burned into my
memory.  I will admit that I often hurry through a book the first
time (if it is especially fast- paced) just to see what will happen
next; re-reading that book then allows me the luxury of "admiring
the scenery" so to speak.  But far from detracting from my pleasure,
the suspense of not knowing what will come next heightens it.

I suppose my tastes are as much an enigma to you as yours were to
me...each to their own, eh?  But do you find any enjoyment in O.
Henry stories (or horror stories) at all?

Regards,

Roy Turner
School of Information and Computer Science
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt

P.S.:  Thanks to all of you who put *spoiler* labels on postings!
P.P.S.: Massive flames to all reviewers who spoil the plots of good
        books/movies in their reviews without telling you they are
        about to do so!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 85 1258-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #246
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 246

Today's Topics:

             Books - Delaney & Ellison (2 msgs) & Lee &
                     Zelazny,
             Films - The Omega Man,
             Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) &
                     Time Control (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 85 08:10:48 pdt
From: Dennis Cottel <dennis%cod@Nosc>
Subject: STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND

I have just finished reading STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND
by Samuel R. Delaney (Bantam Books, 1984).  This is the first of
Delaney's work that I have read since I plowed through DHALGREN some
years ago (the only book I have ever trashed when I was through).
Fortunately, this copy of STARS came from my local library--I was
spared the feeling of wasting the purchase price.

This message doesn't require a spoiler warning because there is
nothing to spoil.  After a promising prolog about mind-altering
humans to condition them for slavery, the story (using the word
loosely) wanders apparently aimlessly, describing a strange society
consisting of a mixture of humans and vaguely reptilian aliens.
Finally, it was over.  To be fair, an Author's Note at the beginning
states that the book is the first of a diptych, so I suppose you
could hope that everything will made clear in the second part.  I
won't be reading the other half.

Now, I suppose some of you will like this book (after all, *someone*
liked DHALGREN according to its cover blurbs :-).  There is
occasionally an interesting idea scattered through the pages.  But
if you are looking for plot, believable characters, and a satisfying
story when you read, skip this.

Dennis Cottel  Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 225-2406     dennis@nosc.ARPA      sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 11:43 PDT
From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA
Subject: Ellison & terminator

 Ellison himself was on Hour 25 a few weeks ago (via telephone), and
was variously crowing about the "terminator" decision and shopping
for copies of the video casettes **without** the acknowlegement.

 According to him, adding the acknowlegement to all copies was part
of the settlement, and he was semi-incensensed that any copies at
all had gotten out without it.  He also was quite definite that he
hadn't been associated with "The Terminator", but that the
similarities with his work had been pointed out by friends and fans.

------------------------------

From: hou5e!ijk@topaz.arpa (Ihor Kinal)
Subject: Re:Terminator; PLAGIARISM; What Everyone has Missed.
Date: 1 Jul 85 21:27:29 GMT

I just joined a video club, and this weekend saw "The TERMINATOR."
I'm amazed by the discussion tha's been going on in the net by a key
point that everyone seems to have overlooked: at the end of the
movie, a line reads: "Acknowledgment is made to the works of Harlan
Ellison" (I may be off in the EXACT wording, but it's pretty close.)
Now, it seems to me that if the movie people up front acknowledge
the influence of a writer, they build a pretty strong case against
themselves in terms of plagiarism.  Certainly if my name were used
that way, I would expect reimbursement.  So, sorry MARK; although
your opinion of Harlan may indeed be justified, I think you're wrong
in this case.

Ihor Kinal
hru3c!ijk

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Jul 85 11:42:03-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #243

> Tanith Lee is a British writer who leans to sword/sorcery and
> fantasy (excellent writing, I might add.)  However, about a year
> ago, I acquired a copy of her book THE SILVER METAL LOVER, and
> loved it.  I have seen lists of titles by her that might be in the
> same genre (ie, not s/s); in particular, DON'T BITE THE SUN, and
> SAPPHIRE WINE.  I haven't been able to find them!  Has anyone read
> them?  How were they?

They were very good. (I can't help you find them; you certainly
can't have _my_ copies.)  The ``** spoiler warning **'' key on this
terminal is broken, so I can't describe the plot.  (The title of the
second is _Drinking_Sapphire_Wine_, which may make it a bit easier
to find.)  It's about as much science fiction as
_The_Silver_Metal_Lover_, or as her other sf books (_Sabella_,
_Day_By_Night_ (?), _Electric_Forest_, and perhaps others I can't
remember): light on the science (i.e., extremely advanced science,
equivalent to domestic magic, but all in the background), heavy on
things that certain of the flamers here would approve of: writing
style, characterization, and so on.  All of them are worth reading.

  Bard

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!guy@topaz.arpa (alfred guy)
Subject: New Amber Book (no spoiler)
Date: 1 Jul 85 17:25:18 GMT

I just finished reading Zelazny's new Amber book, Trumps of Doom.
It's really good, go buy it and read it.

Well, I guess that's not a real article, is it?

The action is up to Amber standards, and for the first time he
doesn't go into a whole lot of detailed history of the land and its
inhabitants.  One interesting twist is that the narrator is a
different character (ok, so it's a small spoiler, but they tell you
this in the jacket cover), and Zelazny has obviously been reading
the papers, because computer programming plays a role in the story.
As usual the book is too short, and the *ending* is inconclusive--he
promises two more books soon, but I really found it refreshing that
he concentrates more on the story than on explaining his philosophy.
This book is written more for people who have read the others than
for new fans.  But it is still full of the same humor and wit that
have characterized the entire series, and the questions raised
(which, like the identity of Corwin's "Dr. Brandon Corey," will
doubltess only be answered in the final book) are exciting ones, so
that my only regret is that I discovered the book so soon after it
came out (it is still in hardcover), and will have to wait some time
to read its sequel.
                                              -alfie guy-

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: The Omega Man
Date: 7 Jul 85 05:31:33 GMT

(I apologize, but I am once again taking a film that somebody likes
and complaining about parts of it.  The opinions here are just mine.
Any film that you like is a good film in that it pleases you.  With
that in mind, let me say a little of why I didn't care for OMEGA
MAN.)

>Has anyone else seen The Omega Man?  This movie was based (loosely)
>on Richard Matheson's classic I AM LEGEND.

An ok film, but not much better than that.  It made too many changes
from the original and very good novel.  The Vincent Price version
LAST MAN ON EARTH with a screenplay by Matheson himself (writing as
Logan Swanson because he quibbled with the filmmakers) had a much
better feel of nightmare.  Some of the plague scenes in LMOE are
among the most frightening I can remember.  OMEGA MAN has nothing to
match them.  The remake tries too hard to make a statment about
brotherhood that is completely alien to the book.

>I think the movie is really a classic that has been overlooked
>by lay-critics and the science  fiction population in general.
>It turns the paranoia of the  book into more of a
>SF-suspense-melodrama.
>
>Reasons why I think it is so good:
>
>Charlton Heston plays in one of his best roles, almost a
>solo effort.  A beautiful musical score by Ron Grainer,
>composer of the theme music for the 1960's TV program THE
>PRISONER

Not to mention the theme to DR. WHO.  It is surprising how some
scenes that would look silly in OMEGA MAN if done in silence (I seem
to remember a rescue on motorcycle with a very obvious stunt double
for Heston, that is exciting only because of the music.

>The screenplay is tight and moves along extremely
>fast.  Anthony Zerbe plays a really neat villan.

Zerbe is often quite good.  After liking the book, I thought the
ending with the happy schoolbus of children singing was really bad
and reminiscent of the worst of the Planet of the Apes series.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: The Problems of Science Fiction Today
Date: 27 Jun 85 16:12:12 GMT

Northrup Frye (a Canadian literary critic whom Canadians think is
world-famous) has an interesting theory about the development of
literature that may pertain to the discussion of SF.  He suggests
that all genres of literature go through four stages of development:

(1)  Mythic stage: stories about gods or god-like beings.
(2)  Heroic stage: stories about larger-than-life heroes.
(3)  Peer stage: stories about people who are much like the
     reading audience.
(4)  Ironic stage: stories about people to whom the reader is
     likely to feel superior.

If one looks at SF and its history, one can see these stages fairly
easily.  SF emerged as a genre of its own with the pulps; before
then, there were certainly SF stories, but they weren't a separate
visible genre.  At that time, the stories dealt with god-like and
heroic people, the ones who could do practically anything.  This
kept up for quite some time, well into the fifties.  Only gradually
did SF characters sink from their larger than life statures.  Thus,
SF had Lensmen, for example, who were very god-like, and Buck
Rogers, the classic hero.

The so-called "new wave" of SF brought in much more down-to-earth
characters.  Instead of Space Rangers who could do anything, we got
scientists who had to struggle and be just a little bit cleverer
than whatever they were fighting.  Such people were on the same
level as the reader (or at least what the reader believed
him/herself to be).

Now we (or some authors, at any rate) are on the verge of the ironic
stage.  For example, characters like Thomas Covenant are more
seriously screwed-up than the average reader.  It is much more
common to see SF characters acting in ways we recognize as childish
or foolish or insensitive.

Readers go through the same stages as literature...or rather, most
readers have a stronger affinity for one stage than another.  Thus,
some readers buy SF precisely because it is a literature that still
has some god-like beings.  Other "Ironic" readers (frequently those
who enjoy mainstream literature, which has been ironic for decades)
are looking for entirely different things in SF.  And because SF is
only now entering the Ironic stage, the characteristic elements of
ironic literature are often missing in SF.  Such elements include:

    a certain type of characterization.  It is wrong to say that
    many SF stories do a poor job of characterization.  In the
    Mythic stage, the role of characterization is to impress the
    reader with how great the god-like being is.  The literature
    would fail in its own goals if it introduced any humanizing
    influences.  (In the Old Testament, would it make sense to have
    a scene in heaven where God agonizes over whether He should
    destroy Sodom and Gamorrah?)  Establishing characters serves a
    different purpose in each of the four stages.  Ironic readers
    should not complain that a Heroic book doesn't give the sort of
    characterization that is given in an Ironic book.

    certain restrictions on possible events in the story.  In Ironic
    literature, "realism" is a desirable thing (at least if you're
    fairly loose about your definition of realism).  In Mythic
    stories, it's an abomination.  What good is it being a god if
    you can't have a god-like disdain for rules of science,
    probability, coincidence, and so on?  In Heroic stories, the
    hero and heroine really do live happily ever after (unless
    they're fated to die in some high tragic way).  Ironic readers
    can't accept such pat solutions.

    certain restrictions on prose style.  Some SF writers can't
    write...or at least they cannot write in a style that is
    acceptable to readers in some stages.  I howl every time I read
    E.E."Doc" Smith's prose and can't take it seriously for a
    moment.  However, there are a large number of fans out there who
    love his stuff.  After 20 years, it is still in print, new
    editions coming out, and so on.  Smith's readers look at prose
    in an entirely different light than classic "Ironic" readers.

The most educated readers today are usually Ironic readers, and what
they look for in a book are a certain set of virtues.  Most of the
people who are contributing to this discussion are Ironic readers.
However, the main body of SF just hasn't got that far in the normal
course of development, nor has the main body of SF readers.  I don't
think this means there is a "problem" with SF.  An early stage of
development is not inferior to a later one; it's just different,
with different goals, different techniques, and a different
readership.  Readers at a particular stage will be able to
appreciate and enjoy SF at the same stage.  As for SF at other
stages, the reader will just have to avoid it or accept it for what
it is.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1985  22:40 EDT
From: shades <MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Cc: sy.slogin@CU20B.ARPA, druri!dht@TOPAZ.ARPA
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #237

        i have been avoiding the this entire issue of tucker versus
the rest of world however i do wish to make one small point.  tom de
bellis is correct in that the divine comedy is not a novel.  it was
and is an epic poem.  the genesis of the 'modern novel' does stem
from don quixote. it was the first *prose* fiction piece.  if you
read it in the original you will find where he lapses back to the
traditional poetic format rather than having it as a straight prose
piece.
                      shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen)
Subject: Controlling Time
Date: 28 Jun 85 22:00:42 GMT

> From Mike Parsons:
> Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
> CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
> (controlling your local time)?

    I can think of two good books that discuss CONTROLLING time,
although it not the major theme of either book.  The first one is
_A_Planet_Called_Treason_ by Orson Scott Card.  If you liked his
other books you should read this.

    The second book is _Collision_Course_ by <author's name
forgotten>.  The basic premise of this book is that time travels in
waves and that anything before a time wave has no structure because
it only gains structure after a wave has passed.  It turns out that
there are two time waves (one of which contains the Earth of our
future) on a direct collision course and when they meet they will,
in effect, cancel each other out.  This is a very good book.  Does
anyone out there happen to remember the author's name.

                              John Allen
                              Ohio State University
                              (UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen)
                              (CSNet: allen@ohio-state)

------------------------------

From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown)
Subject: Controlling Time
Date: 28 Jun 85 21:49:28 GMT

john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) writes:
>>From: msp@ukc.UUCP (M.S.Parsons)
>>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
>>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
>>(controlling your local time)?
>
>Try the new Star Trek novel "Killing Time", by Dell Van Hise.

That's *Della*, as in the wife of James, but maybe I shouldn't
mention it since I don't think her explanation of how the time
travel was achieved (WAS there an explanation??) was really very
good.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  3 Jul 85 1317-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #247
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Jul 85 1317-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #247
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 4 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 247

Today's Topics:

            Books - Donaldson & Tubb & Canonical Books &
                    The Flying Sorcerors,
            Films - Lifeforce (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Rereading Books & 
                    The Problems of SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 85 21:36:22 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: yet more Thomas Covenant

One or two years ago, a friend of mine re-read one of the Thomas
Covenant trilogies with an eye to the technical qualities of the
writing.  He estimated that it could have been shrunk to between 2/3
and 3/4 of its published size without impacting the story simply by
trimming out some of Donaldson's excessive "purpleness" of
description.  (As I recall, we thought the trilogy was about 1500
pages, and my friend thought it could be done in about 1100 pages).

Some where in the SF-L archives is a series of messages about the
problems with the 2nd chronicles of Thomas Covenant.  This included
a discussion of when we could expect the third book (6th overall)
and the story about Donaldson's fight with DelRey over "The One
Tree".  Briefly, Donaldson is supposed to have had some bad times in
his personal life around the time he was writing "The One Tree" and
this is supposed to be very heavily reflected in the actual text of
"The One Tree".  Lester Del Rey, Donaldson's editor, wanted to trim
the book to tone down what seemed to be mostly a long tirade against
Donaldson's ex-{lover/wife/female companion} (choose one, I don't
know which is actually correct).  Donaldson had fits, insisted that
everything stay exactly as it was written which resulted in a big
fight.  Lester Del Rey refused to work on Donaldson's books after
"The One Tree" and they had to hold up everything until they could
assign another editor.  This also explains why "The One Tree" is so
unrelentingly depressing (even more so than any of the other books).

If anyone wants to go through the archives, wherever they now
reside, to look for this stuff, it was sometime after the hardcover
publication of "The One Tree", but long before (at least six months)
the publication of the 6th book ("White Gold Wielder"?).  We are
probably talking about a time period of about 3 years ago, since the
whole thing was during my last period of reading SF-L.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Jul 85 16:21:18-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Re: Space 1999 novel by E.C. Tubb

Well I managed to rake out this nonexistent book and its entitled
Earthfall by E.C. Tubb and most certainly is Space: 1999. Presumably
then it never did make it across the Atlantic.

Don't know if its still in print, but I'll try and find out if
anybody is interested.
                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon 1 Jul 85 11:00:21-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: 'canonical' books

First, the meaning of Canonical.  Since we are not engaged in a
religious discussion, I assume the intended meaning is

4.  of the nature of a canon or rule; of admitted authority,
    excellence, or supremacy; authoritative; orthodox, accepted;
    standard.

    (o Fr 'canoun', L. 'canon', Gr 'kanon') meaning "rule", ie
    standard of measure.

The first reference is dated 1553, but perhaps the best is from
1796:

    "He [Claudios Ptolemaios] ... remained the canonical geographer
    of the antients"

This implies, I think, that a canonical book on a subject is the one
that is accepted as setting the standard, against which other books
are judged.  Of course, if the first book ever on a new topic is
good enough, it has a reasonable chance of becoming canonical.
Ptolemy's Geography, for instance, was the first to attempt a
description of the entire known world.

Perhaps this answers the "orthodox versus innovative" problem - the
book may well have been innovateive when published, but it innovated
with such success that it is now the standard - the orthodox
treatment.

Some examples in SF are possibly:

Parallel Worlds:  Dick, The Man in the High Castle

Nuclear Aftermath: Miller, A Canticle for Leibowitz
                   Stewart, Earth Abides

where I think many of us would agree that these are part of the
"canon".  Another example, where the first book on a topic was so
good it has not been displaced, is

Earth Invaded:  Wells, The War of the Worlds

And a couple more suggestions:

Robots:  Asimov, I, Robot

Time Paradoxes:  Heinlein, By His Bootstraps

However, I can't think of any one book in the "space travel"
category that seems canonical.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 85 19:51:16 EDT
From: David A. Adler <DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: HELP!!  The Flying Sorcerers

I also recently read the Flying Sorcerers by Gerrold and Niven and, 
now that I have read it, would like to re-read it with the list of 
which gods are which authors that appeared in this digest a few months
ago. However, I seem to have misplaced it (or maybe the computer
misplaced it when it was having disk problems (always blame the
computer whenever possible)) and would appreciate it if someone who
still has this list online could send me a copy.

David Adler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 85 08:48 PDT
From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Life Force

from Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM
>  the new movie Life Force, which had what I considered a good
>preview and touts lots of people from big name movies, is in
>actuallity a poor B movie. The plot has been blatantly ripped off
>from Alien and Dawn of the Dead

I have not seen this film, but I understand that it is an adaptation
of an absolutely dreadful Colin Wilson novel called /The Space
Vampires/.  (which predates Alien and Dawn of the Dead). It would
not surprise me a bit if Life Force was similarly horrid. The part
about having lots of big-name actors disturbs me though. It seems
like the only SF films (this one should probably be better classed
as Sci-Fi) that get any consistently decent actors nowadays are the
ones that suck. Vehicles.  Give 'em lots of nifty special effects
and the writers don't REALLY need to paid that much, do they? Gah.

                - JohnnyT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 09:56 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Lifeforce

I have heard from EVERYONE that Lifeforce is bad.  The big question
now is, is it REALLY BAD?  Can humor be derived from it?  Most SF
lovers I know can still enjoy a REALLY BAD movie if they know it is
coming.  I cite The Dungeon Master, Battle Beyond the Stars, and a
million other B flicks as examples.  Does this movie provide the
necessary elements of silly effects, stupid characters and cheap
monsters to make it as a true B film, or is it worse than that?  And
if so, how in the world could it be?

I'm not trying to dissuade people from seeing Lifeforce, I just want
them to be prepared for a bad movie and expect it.  Me, I plan on
waiting for it to hit cable, or the $2 theatre down the street.  No
sense paying them to put out drivel, even though it can be fun once
it is recognized.

How many other people enjoy REALLY BAD sf movies?  Is it only
because there are so few good ones?  Isn't it a shame?

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Rereading
Date: 27 Jun 85 20:39:39 GMT

>From Lee Gold (barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP):
> I typically let a book wait a week or two before rereading it

Above is just one example of something that has been discussed a lot
here lately- reading books a second time and how some are still
exciting after 20 readings.  I have one question for all of you on
this -

                 HOW DO YOU HAVE TIME FOR THIS?????

The stack of books I have "to be read" fills the shelf in my
nightstand and part of the storage space in the headboard of my bed.
I try to keep up to date on the magazines I read but I'm usually
about a month behind.  My stack of sf fanzines to be read is
probably a foot deep.  I carry a book with me at all times (though I
have better sense than to read while driving as has been complained
about in net.auto) and am a reasonably fast reader, or at least I
was back in school when such things were tested.  There are books
I've read more than once, such as Lord of the Rings, but usually
with several years between readings.  There are lots of books I
would like to read again but there is too much I want to read for
the first time.  Have you taken speed reading or what?  I guess my
problem is I want to read EVERYTHING.  (Just finished Flight of the
Dragonfly - very good)
                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: The Problems of Science Fiction Today
Date: 28 Jun 85 18:46:16 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>Northrup Frye (a Canadian literary critic whom Canadians think is
>world-famous) has an interesting theory about the development of
>literature that may pertain to the discussion of SF.  ...

When I was an undergraduate English major (late '60s, early '70s)
Northrop Frye was indeed well-known and respected among literary
academics in the U.S. I don't know about other countries, however.
My impression is that he's still respected in some quarters, but has
fallen somewhat out of fashion of late.

>If one looks at SF and its history, one can see these stages fairly
>easily.  SF emerged as a genre of its own with the pulps; before
>then, there were certainly SF stories, but they weren't a separate
>visible genre.  At that time, the stories dealt with god-like and
>heroic people, the ones who could do practically anything.  ...

I'm not sure this applies to many of the characters in early SF.
Jules Verne and Olaf Stapledon, for example, seem to have had a lot
of people in their stories who were quite ordinary or flawed in some
way.  Consider the captain of the Nautilus (Nemo?) in 20,000 Leagues
Under The Sea. If by 'at that time' you mean principally the early
pulps, you're probably right, of course.

>Now we (or some authors, at any rate) are on the verge of the
>ironic stage.  For example, characters like Thomas Covenant are
>more seriously screwed-up than the average reader.  It is much more
>common to see SF characters acting in ways we recognize as childish
>or foolish or insensitive.

It seems to me that nonheroes or antiheroes have been fairly common
in SF for many years. Consider, for example, the characters in
Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human," who were all flawed in some
way. Or Dr.  Nancy what's-her-name in Asimov's robot stories, who
could relate to robots effectively but not to her fellow human
beings (at least that's how I remember her).

>The most educated readers today are usually Ironic readers, and
>what they look for in a book are a certain set of virtues.  Most of
>the people who are contributing to this discussion are Ironic
>readers.  However, the main body of SF just hasn't got that far in
>the normal course of development, nor has the main body of SF
>readers.  I don't think this means there is a "problem" with SF.

I wonder to what extent SF and genre literature other than SF has
evolved in the sense you're talking about. It seems to me that the
crime/detective story genre has always had a lot of less-than-heroic
characters, at least for the bulk of this century. So has the
western genre. I'm not that familiar with these genres, however. An
interesting question is, have these genres 'evolved' in the sense
you're talking about faster than SF has evolved over (say) the last
fifty years? If so, what is it about SF that makes it harder for
more 'modern' modes of fiction to become widely accepted by its
readership?  Perhaps someone in this group is more familiar with the
history of SF and non-SF genres and can address these questions.

                            -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: ddb@mrvax.DEC
Subject: Re: Part VII
Date: 28 Jun 85 16:21:24 GMT

>                     PART VII: Thematic Drought
>                         by Davis Tucker

>But let us return to modern novel, starting with "Don Quixote De La
>Mancha" and Dante's "Inferno", "Purgatorio", and "Paradiso". What
>distinguishes the

Dante's Divine Comedy isn't a novel of any sort, nor is it modern by
any standard definition.  I don't recall any agreed-on definition of
the modern novel, but surely it's something AFTER Dickens?

>The novels and short stories of the 19th and 20th centuries have
>given us insight into the worlds within us that have lain buried...
>strange themes of degradation and desperation...  Self-discovery
>instead of self-actualization (who you are, not what you can
>become)...  Tales of obsession and murder and lust...

Sigh.  I know who I am, thank you very much. I'm not interested in
reading fictional accounts of the self-discoveries of people I
wouldn't care to meet on the streets. Most of those people are
BORING BORING BORING, and reading about them is even worse.  And I
prefer a different slant on my tales of obsession and lust :-).

>Why is it that this freedom of themes, this wealth of subject
>material, is not present in science fiction? When was the last time
>you read a real-life, honest-to-god science fiction tragedy? Why is
>it that nobody has written a truly great *love story* in science
>fiction? Where is the human failure, the small glories, the defeats
>of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of growing aware,
>the acceptance that we all must come to in time, the heartache, the
>anguish, the ecstasy?

Tragedies?  Tom Godwin's The Cold Equations would be my first pick.
The original Dune trilogy is a classic Greek-form tragedy. Most of
Sturgeon's work is love stories; try Venus Plus X, The Silk and
Swift, or Slow Sculpture.  Or Joan Vinge's Snow Queen. Or Delany's
Driftglass. Zelazny does the "human failure, the small glories, the
defeats of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of growing
aware..." pretty well, as does Robert Heinlein (try The Moon is a
Harsh Mistress, or Time Enough for Love). Look at Childhood's End
(Arthur C. Clarke). Try Steve Brust's Brokedown Palace (when it
comes out; sorry to cheat like that). Try John M. Ford's The Princes
of the Air.  The modern literary novel is obsessed with the
self-discoveries of neurotics and schizophrenics; I'm not interested
in the rantings of crazy people, thank you.

>They don't address themselves to what is fundamentally imperative
>when one is writing about human beings, or aliens, or any kind of
>consciousness that feels and thinks.

And just what is that?  And how can you be so sure what's
imperative?

>It would be far better if more authors of science fiction showed as
>much passion and interest in their characters' lives as they do in
>their "universes" and scientific extrapolation.

The best ones do.  Just as the less good ones in the literary genre
don't.

>Human nature is much more interesting than particle physics, and
>it's a much richer lode of strangeness and imagination.

I'm not sure there's any such THING as human nature; there are just
humans.  Humans are more interesting under stress than at rest (at
least if you're watching from a distance :-). Humans interacting
with particle physics on a personal level are often under a lot more
stress than humans at rest! The universe is a much stranger place
than the parts of it I've been able to visit so far would indicate;
I find people's reactions to these strange environments to be very
interesting.  And humans AREN'T the only valid subject for a novel;
it's perfectly valid to focus on something other than the
characters.

David Dyer-Bennet
UUCP: ...!{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|purdue|shasta|utcsrgv}!
        decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb
Arpa: ddb%mrvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Easynet: Dyer-Bennet@KL2102, mrvax::ddb
Compuserve: 74756,723
AT&T/NYNEX: (617) 467-4076 (work)
            (617) 562-2130 (home)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jul 85 1759-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #250
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 250

Today's Topics:

              Books - Asimov & Pohl & Sladek (2 msgs),
              Films - Lovecraftian Movies (3 msgs),
              Television - Planet Names & The Questor Tapes &
                      Star Trek & Space: 1999
              Miscellaneous - Spoilers (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 17:55 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Problems of Science Fiction Today
Cc: William Ingogly <rti-sel!wfi@TOPAZ.ARPA>

>It seems to me that nonheroes or antiheroes have been fairly common
>in SF for many years. Consider, for example, the characters in
>Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human," who were all flawed in some
>way. Or Dr.  Nancy what's-her-name in Asimov's robot stories, who
>could relate to robots effectively but not to her fellow human
>beings (at least that's how I remember her).

It was Dr. Susan Calvin (I think).  I believe Asimov as said that
she's his favorite character.  Incidentally, one could classify at
least some of the robot stories as Mythic or Heroic, *if* you
consider the robots to be the protagonists.  Especially the last two
stories in _I,_Robot_, whose names I've forgotten (the one about "Is
the candidate a robot or not?" and the one wherein the protagonists
worry about whether the giant robots (really computers) that run the
world are cracking up (I'm trying to avoid "spoilers" here, so I may
be a little vague.)) In many of the stories robots mess up only
because of (as HAL would say) human error.  (Like the one where the
robot messes up because it is told to pull a lever "firmly," and
bends it.) On the other hand, in some of the stories robots mess up
on their own (eg the one about the robot with a weak first law who
was told to "get lost.") As with most attempts to classify all of
anything into several neat pockets, there are ususally examples that
either don't fit or which overlap more than one.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock)
Subject: Black Star Rising - Fredreerik Pohl - Ballantine Books 1985
Date: 7 Jul 85 02:10:47 GMT

                         Black Star Rising
                           Frederik Pohl
                       Ballantine Books 1985

Perhaps Ballantine does Pohl an injustice on the dustcover by
announcing "Black Star Rising" as "An Astounding New Novel".
Science fiction has been around too long to count on
"astoundingness".  Pohl, however, needs none of this advance work.
The terms innovative, ironic, and humorous have always been
applicable where Pohl was involved, especially while in
collaboration with the late, great C.M. Kornbluth.  "Black Star
Rising" is no exception.

Picture an Earth, some two centuries hence, where the US and USSR
have done themselves in with characteristic efficiency, leaving the
remains to China and India who annex the discombobulated Western
World in a bloodless coup, dividing the spoils with the same
assurance as Spain and Portugal in earlier times.  Picture Han
Chinese tourists snapping pix of the quaint peasants on an Alabaman
agricultural collective.

Imagine the consternation of the Chinese when a space vessel not
recognizable as anything earthlike threatens annihilation if
negotiations are not made with any other than the President of the
United States.  Unfortunatly, this position has been extinct for a
good century.

The characters here are good.  One standard anti-hero, young,
ambitious and easily led; one confident, jaded and yet vulnerable
older woman; one confident, sloganized and yet vulnerable younger
woman, and one multiple personality who is exactly that.  The
objective is to save the world with the dubious aid of
alien-worlders who love a good fight more than anything.

A very entertaining read, this book contrasts with some others
recently published in that it presents war as something noble only
in nostalgia and childish in practice.

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: TIK-TOK by John Sladek (other Sladek)
Date: 4 Jul 85 02:37:05 GMT

Another farce by John T Sladek, in a somewhat lighter vein, is "The
Reproductive System" (also published as "Mechasm"), c ?  (sorry, the
copyright page has fallen out of my copy).

"... a new kind of machine that can feed on any metal and drink at
power outlets in order to grow and reproduce itself.  But the system
quickly gets out of control [su-prise!su-prise!], and almost before
its creators realize what's happening the gray box-like machines are
well on their way to conquering and absorbing the entire state of
Utah, then the United States, and tomorrow ... the world?"

Well reviewed by Punch, Oxford Mail, New Worlds, and The London
Times ("An original novel that will surely become a classic of the
genre."), and the Ace edition had a nice cover by Leo & Diane
Dillon.

It moves as quickly as Ron Goulart's work but has more substance.
On the other hand, it isn't as deep (or heavy) as Tik-Tok.

Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: MECHASM by John Sladek
Date: 5 Jul 85 17:32:57 GMT

lum@osu-eddie.UUCP (Lum Johnson) writes:
>Another farce by John T Sladek, in a somewhat lighter vein, is "The
>Reproductive System" (also published as "Mechasm"), c ?  (sorry,
>the copyright page has fallen out of my copy).
>
>"... a new kind of machine that can feed on any metal and drink at
>power outlets in order to grow and reproduce itself.  But the
>system quickly gets out of control [su-prise!su-prise!], and almost
>before its creators realize what's happening the gray box-like
>machines are well on their way to conquering and absorbing the
>entire state of Utah, then the United States, and tomorrow ... the
>world?"

I read _Mechasm_, and enjoyed it a lot.  It's interesting to compare
it with _The Cyberiad_ (Stanislaw Lem).

Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft-based movies
Date: 11 Jul 85 06:54:07 GMT

Boyajian says:

>I found references to three film adaptations of Lovecraft,
>including THE DUNWICH HORROR (regardless of how close, or
>not, as the case may be, you think it comes to Lovecraft, it
>*is* still a film version of the story).  The other two are:
>
>(1) THE HAUNTED PALACE, American-International, 1963, screenplay
>       by Charles Beaumont, adapted from "The Case of Charles
>       Dexter Ward" (with a little E. A. Poe thrown in for
>       good measure).
>
>(2) DIE, MONSTER, DIE!  [a.k.a.  MONSTER OF TERROR], American
>       International, 1965, screenplay by Jerry Sohl, adapted
>       from "The Colour Out of Space".

How's about:

(3) THE SHUTTERED ROOM, Troy-Schenck, 1967, screenplay by D. B.
Ledrov and N. Tanchuck, from a novel by H. P. Lovecraft and August
Derleth.  With Gig Young, Carol Lynley, Oliver Reed.  [Lee, pg. 437]

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 85 09:39:08 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Lovecraft films

This is from memory, so apply caveats.

The four are:

"The Dunwich Horror" - w. Dean Stockwell, Sandra Dee (!), and Ed
     Begley (as Prof. Armitage - a good choice) - probably the
     closest adaptation of an HPL story, which, considering the
     film, isn't saying much.  Nice music, though (Firesign Theatre
     used it as the theme for "Mark Time!").

"The Haunted Palace" - w. Vincent Price & Lon Chaney, Jr. - title
     from Poe, plot from "Charles Dexter Ward" - also close to
     story; maybe the best *film* of an HPL story (note the
     distinction).

"Die, Monster, Die!" - w. Boris Karloff & Nick Adams (!!) - from
     "The Colour out of Space", but only the core is retained:
     meteor lands on a farm and causes mutations.

"The Shuttered Room" - Can't recall anyone notable in the cast -
     from the Lovecraft/Derleth pastiche of the same name.  Totally
     ignores the Cthulhu Mythos side of things, preferring to
     concentrate on the more mundane story of a family with a
     mentally handicapped adult locked away for the good of everyone
     concerned.  Ugh.  I've only seen this once, and promptly forgot
     it.  Maybe this has Sandra Dee, and not "Dunwich"?

Seems to me that anyone could make a semi-decent horror flick from
"Call of Cthulhu" without half trying.  So where is it?  And why
have horror films and filmmakers borrowed so heavily from HPL
(vengeful gods, inbred backwaters, forbidden books), down to
mentioning the "Necronomicon", for the Unspeakable's sake, instead
of trying to adapt him?  Surely Arkham House doesn't want *that*
much for the film rights?  Peter Reiher, have any insights?

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 85 13:07:03 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Lovecraft Movies

I seem to recall seeing a Vincent Price movie which was a really
mangled rendition of THE CASE OF CHARLES DEXTER WARD.  They called
it BLOOD CASTLE or some such nonsense.  About the only similarities
to the book were CDW's name, the NECRONOMICON, and Blasphemous
Beasties in the Basement.  Of course, they added a Damsel in
Distress, too.
                                -- Jamie

------------------------------

From: friedman@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: Re: "Where no man has gone before"
Date: 3 Jul 85 16:47:00 GMT

> Though as for the naming of the newly discovered planets, they
> seemed to follow a naming system using first the name of the
> constellation in which the sun was found, a Greek letter
> specifying the particular sun (possibly by absolute magnitude),
> and a number specifying the planet of that sun.

It was never stated where they got the constellation names and Greek
letters, but the simplest explanation is that these were taken from
Earth's constellations and the standard star-naming scheme in use on
Earth, in which the brightest star (apparent magnitude) in a given
constellation is alpha, the next is beta, etc.

Of course, there were maverick names throughout the series.  For
example, one planet is called "Ingraham B".  I like to think that
"Ingraham" might be a gas giant with an inhabitable satellite in the
second position from the giant.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 4 Jul 85 15:32:20-PDT
From: Dave Combs <COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Questor Tapes

For whomever it was that couldn't remember the name of Questor's
creator in The Questor Tapes (sorry, but I accidentally deleted that
issue of SF-Lovers before I took down your name), it was Emil(?)
Vaslovik.

Dave

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al (Shape changers.)
Date: 5 Jul 85 02:23:51 GMT

> About shapechangers in Star Trek.  Besides Garth, there were the
> two 'magicians.'  I don't remember the name of the episode, but
> Sulu, McCoy, Kirk, Spock, and a few Red-shirts were captured by
> shapechanged aliens.  At the end of the show they turned out to be
> small, blue green critters that were a cross between a starfish,
> an amoeba, and a chicken.

The episode was Catspaw, second season.  The critters were from out
of this galaxy and had mechanical help.  Same with Squire of Gothos.
Outside energy coming in.  Maya had no massive power plant behind
her.

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 85 18:48:05 PDT
Subject: Re: Space: 1999

     I recall that during Space(d out): 1999's first season, Dr.
Asimov wrote an article, published in TV Guide, that detailed the
errors involved in the show.  I do not, however, have any idea of
the date of that issue.

Bruce N. Wheelock
{sdcsvax, ihnp4}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  3 Jul 1985 07:47:05-PDT
From: moreau%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: Spoilers and real life

Frank Adams (mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa) writes:
> Indeed, whoever started this discussion specifically disliked the
> suspense of not knowing what was going to happen.  But you should
> be aware that giving away the plot does detract from the pleasure
> for some of us, and insert spoiler warnings as called for.  After
> all, no one's enjoyment is diminished by seeing the words "spoiler
> warning" in an article.

No, I understand that some people treat the words "spoiler warning"
as a cue to reach for the 'n' key.  I was just trying to point out
that some people (me, and possibly others) treat it as a cue to read
further in the hopes of picking up information.  I am always careful
to insert spoiler warnings as a cue to both types of people.

I don't think there is anything wrong with either technique.  I was
just trying to explain why I feel as I do, and get other people (the
ones who reach for the 'n' key) to explain why they feel as they do.

Henry Vogel (henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa) writes:
> One is forced to wonder how you can stand life? Last time I
> checked, most people have no idea what will happen next in their
> life or the lives of their friends. Admittedly, more people will
> have a tendency to get blown away (or have some other awful thing
> happen to them) in fiction than in real life, but awful things do
> happen in real life. I'm not flaming you for your opinion, but it
> does raise some interesting questions...

That is one of the things about life that I cannot take: its
uncertainty.  But it seems to me that you (and others) are coming
back to the same point, which is "Life has (uncertainty, bad guys
winning, good guys losing, everyone unhappy all the time, whatever
else you care to put here), and you somehow survive life, so why
don't you spend money on and actively enjoy the same things in
books?".  Have you ever heard the term "escapism"?  I read to enjoy
myself.  Insisting that a lot of bad things be put into a book *JUST
BECAUSE SUCH THINGS HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE* eliminates one of the main
attractions of fiction, namely that it is NOT like life.

Someone else wrote "The big question when watching television is not
*WHETHER* the hero will get out of their crisis.  We know that they
will.  The big question is *HOW* the hero will get out of their
crisis."  To me that is the enjoyable part of fiction, the "how".
If I am concerned about the "whether", I cannot enjoy it.

Ken Moreau

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 85 18:35:12 PDT
Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers

Ken Moreau writes:
>Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel
>the way you do?

     When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader
may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created.
Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with
the characters.  I don't care for predictable books, and won't
finish one on the first attack.  For me, anyway, a book whose entire
course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other
factor will redeem it.
     Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example.  Another is the
Twilight Zone.  These, and others, live and die mostly on the
element of surprise.
     I do, on the other hand, reread books.  Those that delivered
strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story
lines.  Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my
interest months or years later.  Knowing the plot does not diminish
my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons.  But I
would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read.

Bruce N. Wheelock
{sdcsvax, ihnp4}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jul 85 1925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #251
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 251

Today's Topics:

              Films - Lifeforce,
              Miscellaneous - The Problems with SF (3 msgs) &
                      Advanced Races (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: LIFEFORCE
Date: 2 Jul 85 02:23:19 GMT

                             LIFEFORCE
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Everybody is saying that the big science fiction film of the
summer is COCOON.  I have heard very little negative comment on
COCOON and very little positive comment on LIFEFORCE.  Based on this
I get a strong impression that LIFEFORCE is not a film I should
recommend.  Let me say then as a minority opinion that for me
LIFEFORCE is THE big film of the summer and that it is the kind of
film that I wish more people were making.
     The filmmakers have remembered that what makes a science
fiction film is ideas and showing the viewer visually the effects of
these ideas.  You will see sights that could only occur in science
fiction films.  Unlike in TERMINATOR, you won't see car chases that
could be from a "Dirty Harry" film.  You won't see Don Ameche
break-dancing either.  You will see a science fiction/horror/fantasy
film with science fiction or horror or fantasy in virtually every
frame of the film.  There is too much story here to fiddle around
with cute characters or standard human drama.
     This is not to say that the film is totally original--far from
it.  There are elements of FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH, ALIEN, DAWN
OF THE DEAD, GHOST BUSTERS, a number of 1950's British science
fiction films, even DRACULA, but there is also a great deal of
metaphysical speculation that belongs to this film alone.
     LIFEFORCE is a film that has more right with it than wrong, and
it has more wrong with it than a film like COCOON has right or
wrong.  This is a film densely packed with ideas and visual effects.
The story begins with an expedition to Halley's Comet discovering a
150-mile-long spacecraft filled with dead aliens, Yes, in some
senses it is not all that different from ALIEN.  And it stays like
ALIEN for a good five or ten minutes.  But while you are watching
the film, don't think you have it pegged as a particular kind of
film; it won't stay that way for long.
     John Dykstra, who was pivotal in the special effects of STAR
WARS, created the effects for LIFEFORCE and they stand as a showcase
of just about every special effects' technique seen in modern
fantasy films.  The story calls for blue screen effects, for laser
light effects, for some effects I don't even know the names for.
There are also make-up/model/prosthetic effects and those play an
important role in the film.
     Along with Dykstra there is an odd collection of familiar names
associated with this film.  It was directed by Tobe Hooper, who
directed such diverse films as TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, 'SALEM'S
LOT, and POLTERGEIST.  It was produced by Golan and Globus, two
Israelis who usually do films of the Chuck Norris ilk with price
tags a good deal beneath this film's $23 million budget.  The
screenplay was co-authored by Dan O'Bannon, known for DARK STAR,
ALIEN, BLUE THUNDER, and STAR CHAMBER.  The source material was the
novel THE SPACE VAMPIRES by Colin Wilson, a philosopher who is a
sometimes science fiction writer.  The surprisingly riveting score
is by Henry Mancini (of all people), who used to score such horror
films as TARANTULA but is better known for soft music such as "Moon
River" or "Days of Wine and Roses."  The film stars Steve Railsback
(Manson in HELTER SKELTER, and THE STUNT MAN), Peter Firth (the
disturbed boy from EQUUS), and Frank Finlay (who played Van Helsing
in the PBS/BBC version of COUNT DRACULA).  LIFEFORCE was released by
Tri-Star, the film-making arm of Home Boxoffice.
     The reason that LIFEFORCE runs into problems is that there is
simply too much story for a 101-minute film.  Often the plot line
becomes cryptic.  The viewer often sees something that is clearly
spectacular, but also is a little hard to interpret.  Some scenes of
destruction become a little repetitive, but are required to convey
the scope of the events of the film.  In general the plot runs
quickly and in several unexpected directions.
     LIFEFORCE will not do well at the boxoffice and most who see it
will not care for it.  Still, it is a remarkable and an unusual
film.  I gave it a +3 on the -4 to +4 scale on leaving the theater,
but on some reflection I might drop that to a +2.  But I had a whale
of a good time and a lot more pleasure out of LIFEFORCE than I got
out of E. T., STARMAN, and COCOON combined.  This is a film for a
narrow audience, but I found it straight on target.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 16:49:58 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Problems with the Problems In Science Fiction

Davis Tucker writes:
> When was the last time you read a real-life, honest-to-god
> science fiction tragedy?  Why is it that nobody has written a
> truly great *love story* in science fiction? Where is the human
> failure, the small glories, the defeats of growing old, the joy in
> childhood, the pain of growing aware, the acceptance that we all
> must come to in time, the heartache, the anguish, the ecstasy?

Gee, what about:
  ENGINE SUMMER, John Crowley  (1,2,4,6,7,8,9)
  RIDDLE OF STARS (trilogy), Patricia McKillip (1,2,7)
  SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, Ray Bradbury (4,6,7)
  THE DREAMING JEWELS (a.k.a. THE SYNTHETIC MAN), Theodore Sturgeon
     (1-9)
  DAVY, Edgar Pangborn (1-9)
  CITY, Clifford Simak (1,3,4,5,7,8)
  BABEL-17, Delaney (2,3,7)
  THE DEMOLISHED MAN; THE STARS MY DESTINATION, Alfred Bester
     (1-5,8,9)
  "Tin Soldier", Joan D. Vinge (1-5,9)
  TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, Heinlein (2-9)
  DYING INSIDE; BOOK OF SKULLS, Robert Silverberg (1-9)
  RE-BIRTH, John Wyndham/Beynon(?)/Harris (1-9)

INDEX KEY:
  1 - tragedy
  2 - love story
  3 - human failure
  4 - small glories
  5 - defeats of growing old
  6 - joy in childhood
  7 - pain of growing aware
  8 - acceptance that we all must come to in time
  9 - heartache, anguish, ecstasy

Like, gag me with a spoonerism.  I understand the desire to provoke
controversial discussion, but this is a bit much.  We could just as
easily take pot shots at all contemporary NON-science fiction, as
being irrelevant to the underlying matters of our times (and more
often than not, boring).  But we won't, will we now.  Equally, if
one is to apply the above criteria to mainstream literature, not
much remains, hmm?

I'm still reeling from the more esoteric requests for good writers,
like redefining the artistic ether, or whatever?  How about writing
books you can't put down, that make you laugh, cry, excited, angry
and fulfilled?  Isn't that good enough?  And what was that about
Delany's missing except with DHALGREN?  How do you feel about some
of the mainstreamers (who have done some crossover), like John D.
MacDonald, Donald Westlake, Stephen Becker, George Bernard Shaw,
Mark Twain, Thorne Smithe ... oh, bother!  There's somebody at the
door.  YARG!  A flaming ARGUMENT!  YACK! Back, Sir! Back, I say!
Down! <CRASH MUNCH MUNCH YUM SLITHER SLITHER silence>

Asynchronously,
Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  1 Jul 85 10:48:49 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: Quality in SF

        I've noticed quite a bit of talk about quality in literature
( and other things) in the last few weeks worth of SF-LOVER'S.  I've
also noticed that most of the letters sent in are rather "polarized"
-- that is, they fall into one of two disparate and rather
simplistic camps.  The first camp is the "absolutist" camp.  They
say that there IS some absolute standard of quality, and that some
works are innately better than others, whether YOU, YOU UNWASHED
HEATHEN, agree or not.  On the other hand, there are those who live
in the "relativist" camp.  Quality is all in personal taste; if you
enjoy something, then it has quality for you; if you don't, it has
none.  I'm perfectly willing to grant that the authors of many of
these letters may indeed have wider opinions than these, but this is
what I've been reading.
        I called these views simplistic for the following reasons:
the relativists seem to accept a certain standard of quality in
their OTHER letters--that of technical quality.  An author who does
not know the rules of spelling or grammar clearly is not as good a
writer _technically_ as some who does (or someone who does and
purposely breaks those rules...).  I expect that at this point
someone is screaming "But somebody can have no concept of spelling
or grammar and still be a marvelous story-teller!!!!!"  Exactly so,
and that brings me to the flaw in the absolutist case; or not flaw
exactly, but a neglected point: that there is not one absolute
standard of quality, but rather many!
        For example, consider the book _Stand On Zanzibar_, by John
Brunner, and the "Alice" books by Lewis Carroll.  Both works are
excellent, and technically well-written.  That is, both writers are
good craftsmen.  But it is clear that _Stand On Zanzibar_ fails at
whimsy, and that _Alice In Wonderland_ fails at creating and
documenting a new and intriguing society.  Of course, neither were
intended for these purposes--but for one whose main taste in
literature is whimsy, _Stand On Zanzibar_ will likely not be very
pleasing.  Note that while the whimsical reader may therefore
dislike SOZ, SOZ is still excellent at what it does, namely bringing
a possible future society to life.
        Consequently, trying to rate the quality of book depends on
two things: The technical quality of the work, and its quality
levels in those areas to which it is addressed.  _Alice In
Wonderland_ rates very highly in whimsy and subtle humor, for
example, and is also well-written--and is thus an excellent book.
        Trying to compare the quality of two books with different
goals is like trying to compare two atheletes, say a swimmer and a
diver.  Both use water, but the skills are very different.
        Any comments?
Will Duquette

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 85 21:51:19 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: In re: the thematic problems w/ SF

I am suprised no one has mentioned Silverberg's better works as a
rebuttal to this essay.  Book such as "Dying Inside" or "A Time of
Changes" (would some like to try to classify "Son of Man"?)

Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get...
Date: 28 Jun 85 16:45:12 GMT

>From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
>> From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
>> There's only one commodity a highly advanced race would travel
>> light-years to take by force, and that's slaves.  It certainly
>> isn't water.
>
>I have to disagree.
>
>1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the resources
>to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one option open
>to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go whatever
>distance it takes to get it!

The problem is that there are *much* easier ways to get water.  As
an obvious example, there is considerably more water in the rings
and moons of Saturn than on the surface of the Earth.  It's frozen,
but that hardly matters.

Even more directly, water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, which
are two of the most common elements in the universe.  It takes a lot
less energy to make water than it does to cross interstellar space.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  1 Jul 1985 07:39:11-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Advanced Race

>From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
>2) Are slaves even very valuable to "a highly advanced race"? I
>mean, at some point machine labor becomes cheaper and more
>efficient than human labor; once a race has passed this point,
>human slaves have little value.  But I guess one could argue that
>the above refers only to physical labor, and thus human slaves
>might still have value for other types of labor.  (What a
>nightmare: aliens kidnap the entire human race and make accountants
>of us all!)

        I believe it was in the second of the movies (and the book)
that explains that SOME of the humans are for food, SOME are for
slave labor, and MOST are going to be used as sword fodder in the
lizard army.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 85 17:39:56 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get

What would an advanced race travel to another star to get?  An
answer to this question depends upon how advanced this race is.

First case: assume that the race is just advanced enough to get to
another star, but not very easily.  This is just about where we
earthlings are right now, or will be in a few years (this might be a
topic for a separate discussion).  What could we find in another
star system that would be worth the voyage?  We have plenty of
material wealth in our own solar system.  I doubt there is any
substance, object or source of energy that would be worth the time
and energy to make an interstellar voyage.  It would almost always
be easier to find or build something ourselves, certainly easier
than fighting someone else for it.  But there are some things that
would be worth the trip - things like knowledge, planets to
colonize, and friends.

Second case: assume a race that can easily travel between the stars.
Such a race would probably have a technology advanced enough that
they could build or obtain anything they wanted, and probably more
easily than they could take it from someone else.  Again, all they
could really want would be things like knowledge, planets to
colonize, and friends.

Brad Templeton writes:
>You bet they would come for slaves.  Just because we think we are
>advanced morally past the desire for slaves, doesn't mean other
>races would follow the same track.
>
>Highly advanced technology can do much, but it never replaces
>personal service.  (Of course, if you can make an android with a
>turing-test AI program then there is an argument that this is a
>living being and should not be enslaved, too)
>
>At any rate, until you have perfect AI, nothing can match a slave
>as the ultimate luxury.  And with a cousin race they can even be
>used for sexual purposes.  Slaves are cheap - they can produce
>enough to feed and house themselves and you can take all the
>rewards.  Yes, they would come for slaves.

The question of slavery is not a moral one, but an economic one.
And slavery just isn't worthwhile in an economically advanced
society.  Slaves are not cheap - they require a lot of maintenance,
and have a lot of annoying habits and superfluous functions.  And
they never provide service equal to that of willing servants
(organic or artificial).  No one who could travel between stars
could possibly have any material use for aliens as slaves.  It's
more likely that hostile aliens would want us to kill, torture, eat,
use as larval hosts or whatever, but not to enslave.

So when outsiders arrive on my front lawn, I won't worry, cause
they're either gonna be friendly, or they're gonna eat my brain, and
I can't do anything about that.

Josh Susser
<Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get : slaves
Date: 1 Jul 85 19:03:01 GMT

For that matter why bother to haul grown slaves over Interstellar
distances.  All you need is a tank of fertilized ova and enough
humans to raise the resulting children.  Of course, you have to
assume that their biological sciences are a little backward compared
to their physics, or they would just design the DNA for the slaves
they wanted instead of going to look for it, and you wouldn't have
to put up with all those human traits that tend to make us crummy
slaves |->.

Joel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jul 85 1710-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #249
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 249

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Adams & Cook & Yarbro,
                   Films - Cocoon & Lovecraftian Movies & 
                           Red Sonja,
                   Television - UFO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bnl!stern@topaz.arpa (eric)
Subject: RE:  So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
Date: 1 Jul 85 12:45:47 GMT

> I can't say I've noticed any discrepancies between English and
> American versions of SLATFATF, but in _Life, the Universe, and
> Everything_, when Arthur Dent crossed the Atlantic he changed from
> a "Complete A**hole" to a "Complete Kneebiter."  At least as far
> as Wowbagger was concerned.....
>                                       Will Duquette

Another change between the British and American versions of _Life,
Universe, and Everything_ was the title of the award won by the
person who possessed the silver bail.  The British version had the
award going to the most gratuitous use of a famous four letter word
beginning with F, denoting sexual relations, while in the American
version, the award was for the most gratuitous use of the world
"Belgium".  They also had to add a few extra sentences explaining
this.
                                Eric Stern

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: The Black Company Trilogy
Date: 2 Jul 85 15:34:35 GMT

SUTHERLAND@TL-20A.ARPA writes:
>Try Glen Cook's "Black Company" trilogy (The Black Company, Shadows
>Linger, and The White Rose).  The Black Company of the title is a
>mercenary company trying to survive and fulfill their contracts (in
>that order).  The series is VERY bleak, but it is good reading.

On the contrary, I got a big kick out of the Black Company and found
it not a bit depressing.  The members of the company were certainly
capable of military atrocities, the most memorable for me being the
point at which they forced a group of prisoners to dig trenches for
fallen dead, then killed the prisoners and threw them in the graves
too.  At the same time, the company recognized such actions as evil
and usually tried to find alternatives to bloodshed.  Moreover,
there is a significant emotional difference for me between mercenary
ruthlessness and love of death, stupid self-hate, and banal
violence.  I understand ruthless self-preservation, especially since
the people they were fighting were no more noble.  On the other
hand, the love of suffering displayed by Donaldson's Ravers, and the
constant self-disgust of Covenant and Linden Avery are simply
loathesome, without the excuse of self-preservation.

I agree that the Black Company have no noble sentiments about war or
heroism and that the books are much grittier than most fantasy, but
I think the villainy is of an entirely different nature than the
Covenant books.  For me, the Black Company books were not downers at
all (and the third book was rather charming).

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: 'END OF THE WORLD' BOOKS
Date: 4 Jul 85 01:19:36 GMT

Is Steven King too verbose for you?  Try Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's
"Time of the Fourth Horseman", c 1976.

"Twenty-first century medical science has wiped out all of the
deadly diseases.  Yet in one American city patients have begun to
flock to the hospitals with smallpox, diphtheria, and all the other
enemies that were supposed to have been defeated forever, plunging
the over-populated city into an epidemic of death, violence, and
destruction...."

"Yarbro has a fine way with the wicked and a clean, terse style ...
a versatile and distinctive talent." -- Kirkus Review

"Her writing flashes with a dark and bloody vividness." --
Publishers Weekly

250 pages you will *not* put down. -- Lum Johnson

Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!keith@topaz.arpa (Keith Nemitz)
Subject: review of COCOON
Date: 28 Jun 85 18:17:14 GMT



    'Never too old to be young' is a cheap phase to illustrate the
content of this well made film.  Still there is a very heartening
message in Cocoon for all ages.  Dreams and reality do not need to
conflict.
    Enough sentimentality, this is a well made and very entertaining
film.  First let me get the few bad points out of the way, so there
is more time to discuss why you will like this movie.  The science
fiction sucks, fortunately, it is not a s-f movie.  Cocoon is pure
fantasy, and if not very logical it is extremely heartwarming.  My
question is why do these incredibly powerful aliens need to disguise
themselves as humans, to charter a fishing boat, to retrieve twenty
Cocoons from what could not be more than six hundred feet of water,
as told from the diving equipment used?
    The rest of the movie is terrific.  The three geezers are good
characterizations, well played by experienced actors.  The fat old
codger, the aging Don Juan, and the tired old man, beset by cancer
are all familiar and real, if not saddening.  Inherently childish in
their secret trespassing of an empty house to use the indoor pool,
the three men stumble upon an apparent fountain of youth, and as
they become healthier and stronger, their antics become more and
more like three children at play.  But never, do they lose track of
their responsibilities (except for one case of infidelity). As far
as they are concerned, this bountiful gift could end the next day,
and they are content to simply enjoy it, and even share it.
     This is definitely a four dollar movie.

                            keith

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  4 Jul 1985 10:22:32-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Lovecraft-based movies

> From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a (actually Anthony A. Datri)

> 2) I have seen the movie "The Dunwich Horror" which was supposed
>    to be based on Lovecraft's story of the same name, but really
>    wasn't. (Stella Stevens in a Lovecraft movie......), but a book
>    I have says that there have been "at least four" movies made
>    out of Lovecraft.  Anyone know what they were?

Consulting:

Weinberg, Robert E. & Edward P. Berglund, READER'S GUIDE TO THE
        CTHULHU MYTHOS ["Second Revised Edition"] (Albuquerque:
        Silver Scarab Press, 1973)

Lee, Walt, REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS [3 volumes] (Los
        Angeles: Chelsea-Lee Books, 1972-74)

I found references to three film adaptations of Lovecraft, including
THE DUNWICH HORROR (regardless of how close, or not, as the case may
be, you think it comes to Lovecraft, it *is* still a film version of
the story). The other two are:

(1) THE HAUNTED PALACE, American-International, 1963, screenplay
        by Charles Beaumont, adapted from "The Case of Charles
        Dexter Ward" (with a little E. A. Poe thrown in for
        good measure).

(2) DIE, MONSTER, DIE! [a.k.a. MONSTER OF TERROR], American
        International, 1965, screenplay by Jerry Sohl, adapted
        from "The Colour Out of Space".

The supposed fourth film may well have been made after the above
reference works were published. I don't recall any other film based
on Lovecraft's work, though. A few years ago, a small company made
plans to film a movie called, if I can remember correctly, THE SPELL
OF CTHULHU, which was an "original" story, not an adaptation.
Haven't heard a word about it since.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 85 02:05:46 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Pseudo-review of Red Sonja movie; some slight spoilage

Micro Review: When oh when are we going to be able to get Dino de
Laurentis' foot off of the neck of SF and fantasy moviemaking?

Mini Review: If you liked the Conan movies, you will probably like
this one.  If you didn't like the Conan movies, you might like this
anyway.  I can't tell if my mind is slipping or if de Laurentis is
slipping and some quality slid through his concept-to-dreck
conversion mechanism; the acting and plot seemed a little better
than usual for his films.  Although I have some quibbles with the
movie due to knowing something about the characters and the
"historical ages" involved, I think this is passable quality thud
and bloonder once you've set your expectations down to the level of
the Conan movies.

Review: In general the movie flows along nicely; the plot advances
smoothly, and there isn't TOO much bad dialogue.  There is plenty of
that fancy sword whirling that we came to know and love in the Conan
movies; I would love to know where the Hyperborian people get there
wrist bones from, they must be made of titanium steel alloy to whip
xxxthose swords around like that all the time.  There is some really
nice looking scenery (no, no, not the warrior maidens or Red Sonja,
I mean the hillsides, mountains, woods, and such like, that everyone
gets to ride around in).  The villains are acceptably villainous,
the hero(in)es quite heroic in skill and attitude.  The magic isn't
overdone (although I can't take the wizard with 3 inch fingernails
seriously at all, it always looks like he is about to stab himself
in the hand), and the swordplay is nicely choreographed (but I still
wonder about the wrists).
   In going to see the film, I had adjusted my expectation level
down to where de Laurentis films seem to fall, so bad dialogue,
slighty silly plot, mediocre acting, and terrible direction didn't
bother me the way they did for the first Conan movie.  Nevertheless,
I have a few complaints about details of the movie.  As in the first
Conan movie, they have tampered with the "origin" of the character
without sufficient justification, fortunately it is much less
tampering than in the Conan movie; the tampering seems to have been
done just to provide Sonja with a reason to hate the villainess,
which isn't really necessary.  The movie also suffers from a failure
to tell you things soon enough; an example is Sonja's vow, an
integral part of her character, which gets dropped on you in
mid-movie.  A comic relief group has been added, totally
unnecessarily (one of them reminds me greatly of Sancho Panza); they
get used later and need plenty of rescuing along the way, or least
one of them does, but their comic relief function generally detracts
from the film along the way.
   One problem that irked me throughout the film is that the
characters incessantly called on God when swearing, instead of their
own particular god or goddess, and it is pretty clear that not one
of these people believes in God.  I didn't hear one call to Crom or
even Mitra in the whole movie!
   One last quibble: although Robert E. Howard, who originally
created the character, has been credited, I failed to see any credit
for Marvel Comics which actually developed the version of the
character that the movie is based on.
   This can be a fun movie if you don't mind the fact that it
suffers from Dino de Laurentis syndrome (where scriptwriters and
directors don't have a good feel for the genre or the characters
they are working with).  So turn your expectation level down and
find a theatre that is showing Red Sonja for $2 and watch for your
own pet peeves while you view this movie (like I did).  (If you want
a GOOD movie, you should just go see Cocoon instead and skip
anything that de Laurentis touched.)

Oh, yes, the sexist review (for anyone still reading): Brigitte
Neilsen (sp?) who plays Sonja is a superb piece of flesh and the
various warrior maidens in the battle scene aren't bad either.  I
suspect that they will get a lot of repeat male viewers who like
drooling over Sonja, especially for the opening scenes.  I suspect
that I can wait for the movie to make it to cable, however, before I
view it again.

------------------------------

Subject: UFO (or "The Personal Disasters of Cmdr. Straker")
Date: 02 Jul 85 22:52:14 PDT (Tue)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Those who remember this favourably remember more than I can answer
to.  I can't easily think of another show, sf or otherwise, with as
grey a disposition, or such unfailingly unattractive characters.
Col. Lake particularly always looked as if she were sucking lemons,
or expecting the world's worst line from the next man she
encountered.  I can't recall ever seeing Straker looking other than
grim, even after he was just married.  Snideness seemed a way of
life for Alec Freeman and Paul Foster.  Captain Carlin and Captain
Waterman appeared too seldom for anybody to say what they were like.
General Henderson was an ogre.  The only person I remember in any
really good light is Miss Eland, and her appearances were limited to
Straker's arrival at his "office".

While this sounds superficially as if it might be closer to reality
than series where everything always ends happily ever after, it
really isn't any better balanced, or a more accurate view of life.
One side says things are always basically good; the other says
things are always basically grim.  The first, if inaccurate, at
least leaves a generally good mood behind.  The second, no better in
accuracy, just leaves a sour feeling.  If you enjoy sour feelings,
take them and welcome.  I suppose lots of people must, or
Trevanian's novels wouldn't sell nearly so well; but that doesn't
mean at all that all of us do.  And it's no better a way to
understand people.

The pseudo-science they managed to avoid getting too terrible by
avoiding for the most part the whole subject, and staying mostly
with Earthside events.  But there were still a lot of strange
things: why the women on moon base wore lavender hair (though they
looked normal enough on earth); why moon base was equipped with
exactly 3 interceptors, whose (single) projectile was almost the
entire front half of the craft, which seems to lack a little for
efficiency; why, for all the oceans of Earth, there was **one**
Skydiver -- with one Sky fighter plane; or how the craft -- I hardly
dare call them rockets -- that shuttled to moon base managed to land
backward in their gantries, as if the pilot were backing his car
into the garage.  Their only propulsion was a single rocket at the
stern.

The earth side of things was done moderately well.  Low, sleek cars,
with gull-wing doors.  The doors opened just quickly enough so that
you couldn't really say "nobody would ever use something like that",
but no quicker.  The clothes were certainly nothing impressive, not
even the fishnet jumpsuits that SHADO personnel (male and female)
always wore.

Perhaps the best things were the UFOs' attacks while on earth.  The
sequences were usually swift and taut, with a minimum of special
effects, and the attacking craft often partly hidden by trees or
brush (over many roads in England the trees almost meet overhead,
forming a virtual tunnel), which heightened the tension and the
horror: you could hardly tell where it was, or where the next shot
would come from.

There were, I grant, one or two episodes worth seeing.  I recall one
where Col. Foster crashed on the moon, and was injured, with his
spacesuit damaged.  He was found by an alien who, instead of killing
him, assisted him back toward moon base, several days' journey, with
constant repairs needed to Foster's suit, and the constant fear
between the two temporary allies who otherwise would have been
deadly enemies.  It was powerful.  There was another good one where
the aliens created models of SHADO's operations, for the purpose of
disrupting SHADO's communications and originating orders of their
own.

Unfortunately, these good ones stand out against a grey, uninspired
background.  One cancellation I can't regret.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Jul 85 1618-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #248
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 8 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 248

Today's Topics:

           Books - Adams & Chalker & King & Sucharitkul &
                   End of the World Stories (2 msgs) & 
                   Publishing Books,
           Comics - Crossfire,
           Films - Back to the Future,
           Television - Majel Barrett & Space: 1999,
           Miscellaneous - Discrepancies & Controlling Time (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday,  1 Jul 1985 10:07:42-PDT
From: lionel%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: So Long and Thanks for All the Fish - US vs. British

As a contribution to the discussion on differences between the
British and US versions of SLaTFAtF, I noted that in my SFBC
edition, Arthur drove a VW Rabbit.  Unless he had it specifically
imported from America, what he was really driving was a Golf.  (Of
course, they're now Golfs in the US too...)  What does he drive in
the British version?

Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker
Date: 30 Jun 85 17:10:19 GMT

*** mild spoiler warning ***

> In many of his stories [...]  a previously strong, likable female
>character is transformed into some weird sort of mutant
>sex-creature for no adequately explored reason.

As far as I can tell, Chalker uses the *same* two ideas in every
book he writes: shape change and mind control/tyranny.  He is
reasonably inventive in coming up with variations on these, but as
far as I am concerned, enough is enough.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday,  2 Jul 1985 10:55:11-PDT
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: STEPHEN KING NEWS

     According to the LOCUS (July issue) Stephen King has just
signed a two book deal for $10,000,000 (TEN Million dollars !!!).
This is supposed to be the largest fiction deal ever made. The two
books are "THE TOMMYKNOCKERS" and "MISERY", both books were sold to
New American Library. In the LOCUS article it gives a 14 month
period (Sept. 1986 - Nov. 1987) in which a new King book (hardcover)
will come out every 3 1/2 months. The books in order of publication
will be "IT", "MISERY", "EYES of the DRAGON" and "THE
TOMMYKNOCKERS".
     Other publication dates listed in the article are, "THINNER"
paperback edition Aug. 1985, "THE TALISMAN" paperback Oct. 1985, the
four early Bachman books ("RAGE","ROADWORK","THE LONG WALK" and "THE
RUNNING MAN") will come out as a trade paerback omnibus in Nov. 1985
and the paperback for "SKELETON CREW" will come out in the spring of
1986.
     Not listed in the LOCUS article but supposedly scheduled for
late 1985 or early 1986 is "THE DARK TOWER: The Drawing of the Four"
hardcover.

KEN COBB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 85 19:51:16 EDT
From: David A. Adler <DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: HELP!!  The Throne of Madness

I was casually reading The Throne of Madness by Somtow Sucharitkul and
was about to start the last chapter when I flipped to the end to see
how many pages were left. To my surprise the top half of the last page
is GONE! I suppose that's what you get when you borrow library books,
but I could only find the last two books of the series in local
bookstores. Could somebody please send me the text from the last two
pages. It is pages 253 and 254 from the 1983 edition published by
Timescape Books.

David Adler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 85 07:36 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: The End of Civilization as We Know It

Another book in this vein is "The HAB Theory" (Or something like
that - I read it a long time ago, and the book is in my parents
attic.) It postulates recurring destruction of civilization -
civilization grows, and is destroyed by a recurring natural disaster
(a HUGE natural disaster!). The book was very good as I remember,
but it was not real popular, and it was billed as Fiction rather
than SF (I think). Good luck finding a copy!

>>Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 09:30 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: End of { Civilization, Mankind, Earth, the Universe }

If you enjoy these kinds of stories, I recommend an anthology called
Catastrophies!  by someone I forget, but I think it was Baen.  There
is in particular a story called Dark Benediction that I really
enjoyed.  I recommend this book heartily.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Publishing a book - how?
Date: 1 Jul 85 17:07:57 GMT

        What is the usual fee for a new author of a fantasy novel.
Are trilogies worth more?  What is the procedure for choosing and
obtaining a publisher?

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 85 21:46:28 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Crossfire and Mark Evanier

Since there is much talk mail going back and forth here about
television shows and movies and how bad/good various ones are, I
thought people might be interested in a current comic book being
written by a man who spent (still spends) much time working in
Hollywood in the writing end of the TV and movie business.

More precisely, I thought people might be interested in the essays
he substitues for a letter column.  Although it is not directly
related to SF-L, the columns are extremely well written and very
interesting reading.  (In fact the whole book is.)

Crossfire is published by Eclipse comics and costs about $1.25 per
issue.
        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: watmath!bstempleton@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Back to the Future, review, comment on Spielberg, followed by
Subject: Spoiler
Date: 1 Jul 85 17:28:44 GMT

Just saw "Back to the Future", a new film starring Christopher Lloyd
and with Spielberg as executive producer.

Nano-Review: See it!!

This film is certainly not a hard-sf time travel story, but it is a
lot of *fun*, and you will enjoy it.  It's professional in quality
and is full of truly wonderful time travel situations.  While there
have been many time travel stories, none have exploited the humour
of paridoxical situations (like dating your mother) as well as this
one.

It's true there are lots of inconsistencies and paradoxes, but the
movie isn't really making a pretense at accuracy in time travel,
whatever that is anyway.

For a while (after the Goonies) I was worried that Spielberg was
just putting his name on sf/adventure films for a quick buck without
making sure they were of the best quality.  This film, however, is
top quality, superior to Goonies and Gremlins.

And now on to the inconsistencies... (S P O I L E R)

You heard me, I said SPOILER!!!.  Why are you reading any further if
you haven't seen the movie?  Too curious?  Don't read this I tell
you, it will spoil the plot!!!!!!

The mistake this film makes is it tries to use both the "parallel
universe" time change scheme and the standard "change in history
takes 'time' to propogate forward" scheme.  Either of these allows
the protagonist to change his history and then change it back.  They
make it clear that he is affected by the change - he starts to fade
from existence.  In the end, he gets his parents together, but
leaves his father a changed man, resulting in tremendous changes in
his present.  Yet when he returns, these changes have not affected
him.

So you must have Marty I and Marty II.  Now Marty I returns ten
minutes early to see Marty II speed off back in time.  What happens
when he arrives?  Does he meet Marty I?  They didn't in the movie,
but perhaps they do a second time around, talk it over, and decide
to stop interfering.  But with both present, WHO GETS TO GO BACK?
Or is the Doc clever enough not to set the time controls to the same
time?  But if Marty II goes somewhere else, now separated from his
much nicer parents, he either never returns or creates yapu (yet
another parallel universe) and so on ad infinitum.  Of course
perhaps Marty II goes back and he and Marty I agree to let their
parents meet normally, and they simply switch universes with Marty
II losing his 4X4.

If not, Marty I has no remorse over effectively killing his real
parents and the universe they lived in.

The moral of the story is, you can't mix parallel universe paradox
resolution with propogating change paradox resolution.

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software, Waterloo, Ont. (519) 884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 10:03 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: So maybe I do rant and rave a bit...

Concerning the Gen Roddenberry attempts at TV series (is that ALL he
did?), Majel was in just about every one of them.  She was in The
Cage as Number One, and in Star Trek as Nurse Chapel.  She was in
the Questor Tapes as a doctor, and she was in the occult show,
Spectre, with Robert Culp.  I'm willing to bet she was also in
Genesis II and Planet Earth, but I haven't seen them recently
enough.  Gene seems to be the only person in the biz that thinks she
really is an actress.  How does the net feel?  Who can act better,
her or Barbara Bain?  And the big question is can either of them
act?

( Just trying to start an argument )

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 85  01:51 EDT (Wed)
From: _Bob <Carter@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Space: 1999

>From: Alastair Milne <milne at uci-icse>
>If a similar amount of work had gone into removing Barbara Bain,
>the series might have done better.  What wonderful things contracts
>are: you have no acting talent worthy of the name, no
>expressiveness, no park of character, and they can't get rid of you
>because you have a contract.

Aw c'mon.  Get off Barbara Bain's case.  *I* liked her, and hubby
Martin Landau too.

1.   Their style of acting struck just the right
     zombie-like note for Space: 1999.

2.  They @i(looked) just like real space-travelers will look,
    when the technology is mature enough so that the sort of
    subtly strange and ugly people that live next door to you
    will make up the crews.

3.   As a matter of fact, they look just like the mother
     and father of some high-school kid (which they probably
     were), trying to make an honest buck (which they certainly
     were).  I remember always being grateful my family didn't
     look as weird as my classmates' families (at least they
     didn't to me), and I get a memory of that feeling from
     watching BB and ML.  She looked like she puts on the makeup
     with a trowel to hide the fact she is 49.  He just looked
     embalmed.

4.   There isn't an American actor or actress in a thousand
     who wouldn't be better occupied busing dishes in a greasy
     spoon.  As a matter of fact, there are only about a
     thousand or so who are regularly employed, and every
     watcher of HBO soon comes to know and loath each of them.
     The women are all sexless narcissistic bubbleheads, the men
     are self-infatuated glitzy prettyboys.  BB and ML were not
     pretty, were not charmed with themselves, and always gave
     the impression that @i(they) thought busing dishes would be
     more fun.

5.   They were also very good in Mission Impossible, although
     no one but me seems to think that qualified as SF.  They
     were always so sullen about being upstaged by the Barney
     character.

_Bob (Art Should Mirror Life) Carter
UUCP: {allegra|packard}!topaz!ru-blue!carter

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on)
Date: 29 Jun 85 09:43:46 GMT

> From: rick@iddic.UUCP (Rick Coates)
> The reason that faster-than-light is acceptable is that it is
> explained, and has rules.

The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty
assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect that
a faster-than-drive would have on the world that is described in the
story.  According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is
exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there is no
difference.  (This is similar to the way in which Special Relativity
equates mass and energy as being exactly the same thing.)  Thus, if
faster-than-light travel is possible, time travel is possible, and
thus causality is violated.  But how many SF stories that have
faster-than-light travel, consider these extremely important
ramifications?

It is pretty silly that SF stories use faster-than-light travel,
because almost any story that does use it could be easily rewritten
to use parallel universes instead, without these problems.

Doug Alan
nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

From: cae780!alan@topaz.arpa (Alan M. Steinberg)
Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time
Date: 26 Jun 85 20:02:58 GMT

>>Does anybody know any good SF about CONTROLLING time (everybody
>>elses), as opposed to time travel (controlling your local time)?
>A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and
>Everything" ... .  There was a movie by the same name that was a
>fairly decent rendition of the book.
>
The book was a bit better than the movie in describing the theory.
John D.  MacDonald (famous for his Travis McGee mysteries) is also a
good "contemporary SF" writer, using today's world as his settings.
In "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything" (the book), the
magical watch doesn't stop time for all but the user, but SLOWS it
down tremendously (in the user's timeframe).  Thanks to some basic
physics (which I have forgotten most of), the hero Kirby Winter
could only move things very slowly when the watch was ticking,
because of the mass/velocity/time ratios (or something like that).
Of course, the TV movie couldn't spend 10 minutes watching him move
a body, so it is not as scientific.  There was also a sequel to the
movie, which stunk (different actors playing the lead roles-- that's
a sequel?).
                             Alan Steinberg
                             {ucbvax}!decwrl!amdcad!cae780!alan

------------------------------

Subject: controlling time
Date: 30 Jun 85 02:32:45 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

The background of Dr. Who deals very much with controlling time.
That is part of why the Time Lords are called "Time Lords".
However, there is little evidence on the series that Gallifrey
actually exercises such control anymore, and in fact, their habits
of non-interference and withdrawal from the universe strongly
suggest that they don't.

However, time is most certainly controlled in two or three Dr. Who
episodes.  In "Meglos", the adversary jams the TARDIS, and therefore
the Doctor, Romana, and K9, in a "chronic hysteresis loop", in which
the same period of time repeats indefinitely, with a gap of normal
time as the loop is "rewound".  Interestingly, they are aware of the
loop -- which starts driving them bonkers.  In "The Armageddon
Factor", the Doctor uses the nearly-completed Key to Time, with an
artificial last segment, to put an attacking space ship into a time
loop, so that for a couple of hours (or some such period) the ship
is always 2 seconds away from attacking.

In fact, the whole premise of the Key to Time was that it would
permit its possessor to control the flow of time.  The White
Guardian wanted it to stop time temporarily so as to right a few
things with the Universe before it fell to pieces.

Earlier in the series, in "The Pyramids of Mars", the Doctor uses
the time control from the TARDIS to shift the end of Sutekh's
time-space tunnel several thousand years into the future, far past
his (Sutekh's) lifetime: he would emerge dead of old age.

Though it may be due to odd editing, it often seems to me that time
inside the TARDIS must bear the same arbitrary relationship to time
outside it, that space inside it bears to space outside it.  It
often seems that the Doctor has only just shut the door, going
inside, when the TARDIS dematerialises, or before he comes back out
with something that must have taken him half an hour, inside, to
find.  Rather like the Pevenseys' visits to Narnia.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 85 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #252
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 252

Today's Topics:

           Books - Cook & Silverberg & Zelazny (2 msgs),
           Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Cocoon,
           Television - Majel Barrett & Star Trek & Dr. Who,
           Miscellaneous - Discrepancies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Book Review: The Fire in His Hands :slight spoilage
Date: 8 Jul 85 15:59:57 GMT

        I have just finished Glen Cook's The Fire in His Hands and
the sequel, With Mercy Towards None.  The setting for these stories
is post-Dynastic, in other words a great Empire was shattered over a
typically trivial squabble.  The main culture is that of the fallen
people, which is sort of a mix between mexican and arab nomads.
There is a ruling class, the Royalists, who are the remnants of
the royalty before "The Fall".
        This is an epic of religious conquest and numerous battles.
I have no complaint as far as the description of the battles.  Those
of you who have read William Forschtein's Fire on the Ice series and
enjoyed the blood and gore will find this book equally amusing.
        The plot summary is this: a young boy survives the pillage
of his father's caravan and is left for dead in the desert.
Despite all odds he shows up out of the desert thirty days later
and claims to have been saved by an angel of the Lord.  He has
renamed himself El Murid, the Disciple and has come to return the
Lord's chosen people, these nomads, to His way.
        Ok.  The story builds his allies and trails his progress
until the end of the second book where things have come to a kind of
uneasy standstill.  Cook has created a nice historic type story.  He
includes scenes of magic and clerical power in terms of El Murid.
The battle strategies are interesting and the author really plays
with your heartstrings- both sides of the battle are always that
close to defeat.
        I recommend this story for people who like:
                a) battle
                b) religion and clerical Powers
                c) real Magic
        in that order.
                        Moshe Eliovson
                        {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock)
Subject: Tom O'Bedlam - Robert Silverberg - Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1985
Date: 8 Jul 85 03:33:58 GMT

                            Tom O'Bedlam
                         Robert Silverberg
                     Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1985

One of the first words that comes to mind in describing Silverberg's
writing is 'haunting'.  This book is a classic example.

The real force of this book is the way the reader is asked to
participate, with the characters, in belief.  The books follows all
of the main characters through the unraveling of their own world
through the intervention of many others.

If the evidence of our own senses and emotions, and even our
technology is to be believed, mankind is not only not alone, but is
invited to share in a varied and ecstatically beautiful universe.
The phenomenon is real, but is it really demi-gods from distant
stars we see, or the phantasies projected by a seemingly benign
telepathic mutant.

The prose is beautiful, the characters are involving.  Certainly as
good as any Silverberg so far.

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" by Zelazny
Date: 28 Jun 85 22:47:00 GMT

I just finished a first reading of a Zelazny story in the July
IASFM, and I'm surprised not to have noticed it mentioned here
already. (Did I miss it?) It's called "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by
Hokusai".

I'm not going to try to describe its plot or review it. I will say,
however, that this story should really cheer any of you out there
like me who have been disappointed by Zelazny's more recent work. My
library is still in boxes after a move, so I can't quote titles that
disappointed me other than to cite the Amber series, which seemed
awfully light and puffy and beneath him.

In my opinion, this story should be classed up there with Lord of
Light; Dream Master; This Immortal; (~)Door of his Mouth, Lamps of
his Eyes; Rose for Ecclesiastes and other great short stories. I
think it has soul (which is doubtless as difficult to define as
quality and possibly more rare).

I haven't been buying sf magazines or many anthologies the past 5-10
years.  If Zelazny's been writing stories of this quality that I've
missed, I hope someone like Jerry Boyajian or SZKB will point me to
them.

reg

------------------------------

From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock)
Subject: Trumps of Doom - Roger Zelazny - Latest in the Amber Series
Date: 7 Jul 85 00:56:48 GMT

                           Trumps of Doom
                           Roger Zelazny
                          Arbor House 1985

The Amber series, beginning with the prototype novel "Jack of
Shadows" in 1971 and climaxing (in the good old sci-fi tradition
followed by Franks Herbert & Sinatra, Asimov and Farmer) in 1978
with "Courts of Chaos" continues on in the newest release,"Trumps of
Doom" (1985).

Courts left us with Corwin the Mad Prince triumphant in saving Amber
from disintegration, Oberon the King dead and the slightly
Loki-like (but all-round Good Egg) Random on the throne of Amber,
and Corwin himself, now the father of Merlin by Dara of Chaos,
oiling off into Shadow for (we hope) a busman's holiday.

Now, some eight years later (by Amber or Earth Shadow time, take
your pick) we continue the Amber saga with Merle (a.k.a. Merlin) who
has just completed a stint with a computer firm in San Francisco.

As often happens in the Amber royal house, Merle's father is
missing, he is lumping around in Shadow, and somebody unknown is
trying unsuccessfully kill him.  And again as usual, the clues lie
in Amber.

Just like a James Bond film, this new Amber offering contains the
standard accoutrements found in all of the Amber series,
deception, mystery, magic, intrigue, and shifting sets and scenes
beautifully described.  The emergence of a HAL-like computer in
Amber keeps the saga current.

There is nothing radically different in "Trumps", but then again,
does there need to be?  A long awaited sequel sure to be appreciated
by any confirmed Amber fan.

For those readers who are not entirely familiar, or who have grown
unfamiliar in the years between 71 and 85, here is the complete
"Amber" selection in chronological order:
     Nine Princes in Amber
     The Guns of Avalon
     The Sign of the Unicorn
     The Hand of Oberon
     The Courts of Chaos
     The Trumps of Doom

The book "Jack of Shadows" deals with Shadow, but not necessarily
with Amber, although the similarities between Jack and Corwin are
too great to be ignored.

Any and all are good exciting reads, and all are available in used
bookstores everywhere, although if Asimov's and Herbert's and
Farmer's most recent efforts are any precedent, someone is bound to
reprint the entire series in the near future.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: BACK TO THE FUTURE
Date: 2 Jul 85 02:24:42 GMT

                         BACK TO THE FUTURE
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     The last film that came out with Stephen Spielberg's name on it
was GOONIES.  After seeing that I decided that these
Spielberg-produced films were on a downward spiral.  I told myself
that I would avoid them in the future.  Then a local theater had a
sneak preview of BACK TO THE FUTURE and hope sprang eternal.  For
the first ten minutes of the film I was asking myself why I didn't
listen to my advice to myself and stay away.  After all, why do I
need a film about a cute kid on a skateboard and a horribly over-
acted mad scientist?  The remaining 106 minutes answered that
question rather nicely.

     In fact, BACK TO THE FUTURE has few or none of the script
problems that I saw in GOONIES.  Instead, we have a tightly written
science fiction story with likable characters, a fair amount of wit
that really *is* funny, and a great collection of time paradoxes
presented in a witty fashion.  Nobody who has read the basics of
science fiction or seen much of science fiction cinema will find
much in the way of real ideas, but the old ideas are tied together
in a way as entertaining as they have ever been in the past.

     The story deals with Marty McFly, whose father is a life-long
nerd and whose life is in a shambles.  Marty has somehow acquired
the friendship of a really weird scientist (Christopher Lloyd), who
one night reveals that he has made a few special modifications to a
DeLorean car.  When it is powered with plutonium and is moving at
precisely 88mph, it becomes a time machine.  It isn't too long
before our hero finds himself trapped in 1955 and madly trying to
repair changes he has made in history.

     The script (by director Robert Zemeckis and producer Bob Gale),
after a shaky start, is remarkable for clever lines and for
attention to technical detail.  In spite of a few bizarre touches,
this film works as a piece of science fiction.

     The cast is made up almost exclusively of unknowns.  The minor
exceptions are Lloyd, whose face is familiar from ONE FLEW OVER THE
CUCKOO'S NEST--he played a belligerent inmate--and from TO BE OR NOR
TO BE.  Also familiar-looking is James Tolkan as the vice-principal
of the local high school.

     This is a +2 film (on the -4 to +4 scale) and I consider it to
be the best thing with Spielberg's name on it since E. T.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: BACK TO THE FUTURE (Christopher Lloyd)
Date: 6 Jul 85 03:08:28 GMT

Lest we forget, Rev. Jim (Taxi) also played the Klingon Commander in
THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, John Bigbuti in BUCKAROO BANZAI, and has been
showing up in lots of other things that I can't remember at the
moment.  I enjoy Lloyd's performances, though he does seem to have
been typecast in roles that display a certain detachment from
reality!

Lewis Barnett,
CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712
barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1985 20:04:01 PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #245
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

I thought Cocoon was lousy. It's a blatant ripoff of Spielberg's
movies and is a pretty bad movie in and of itself. I have been
consistently disappointed by 9 out of 10 movies I have seen in the
past 5 years.  Garbage.

        Stuart

------------------------------

From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown)
Subject: Re: So maybe I do rant and rave a bit...
Date: 4 Jul 85 21:45:39 GMT

>From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>Concerning the Gene Roddenberry attempts at TV series (is that ALL
>he did?), nMajel was in just about all of them. I'm willing to bet
>she was also in Genesis II and Planet Earth, but I haven't seen
>them recently enough.  Gene seems to be the only person in the biz
>that thinks she really is an actress.  How does the net feel?  Who
>can act better, her or Barbara Bain?  And the big question is can
>either of them act?

I wouldn't bet: I did see both Genesis II and Planet Earth for the
first time recently and there she was.  I don't think she's any good
as an actress myself, but can't compare to Bain.>

------------------------------

From: varian!fred@topaz.arpa (Fred Klink)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 2 Jul 85 22:56:23 GMT

>"Space: 1999" wasn't intended for children any more than was, say
>"Star Trek", but it tended to stretch the willing suspension of
>disbelief a hell of a lot further.  This wasn't due to exotic
>imagination, just a lack of understanding of some fundamentals of
>SF craftsmanship.

I enjoy Star Trek far more than Space 1999 as well, but to say Star
Trek didn't stretch willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking
point on numerous occasions is, to coin phrase, stretching it!

I think the original authors posting was meant to say that judging
sci-fi strictly on the basis of scientific accuracy is not a fair
means of critique, unless all works of fiction are judged on the
same basis.  People in detective movies take blow after blow that
would knock out a horse-- now thats not very scientifically
plausible but we take it willingly as a part of the formula action
show.  How about horror movies?  There's yet to be a case of dead
folks walking around causing trouble that made it to the scientific
journals, yet we flock to the theatre to willingly subject ourselves
to such improbabilities.  Part of what is refered to as "SF
craftsmanship" has always involved creating that which is
scientifically impossible, usually by just bringing in a "technology
that is completely unknown to us" as Spock seemed to be saying every
other week.  Also, since I'm a scientist, I have learned to avoid
saying that anything is "impossible".

------------------------------

From: ncsu!ftsjmd@topaz.arpa (Mike Davis)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF
Date: 7 Jul 85 18:37:41 GMT

There is one segment of a Dr Who episode that has been bothering me
for some time.  Usually Dr Who has imaginative scripts and well
thought stories.  The sf isn't hard core but when they show
something it usually is correct, or good enough that I would allow
them "poetic license".  Example: the episode Enlightment, dumb
premise, a yacht race in space, but the explanation of the wind
being the solar wind and the gravity of the planets providing the
force to steer against the wind was quite good.  What gets me is
Four to Doomsday, where the Doctor is stranded in space midway
between another space craft and his Tardis.  He pulls a cricket ball
out of his pocket and throws it at the space ship, when he catches
it on the rebound he has the momentum to reach his Tardis.  He
should have also gotten some momentum from throwing the ball!!!  If
the writers had figured out the solar sailing business I would have
thought they would have figured this out too.

Mike
Davis

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on)
Date: 1 Jul 85 18:35:59 GMT

> The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty
> assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect
> that a faster-than-drive would have on the world that is described
> in the story.  According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light
> travel is exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there
> is no difference.  (This is similar to the way in which Special
> Relativity equates mass and energy as being exactly the same
> thing.)  Thus, if faster-than-light travel is possible, time
> travel is possible, and thus causality is violated.  But how many
> SF stories that have faster-than-light travel, consider these
> extremely important ramifications?
>                        Doug Alan

Actually Heinlein used exactly that premise in 'Time Enough for
Love', but most 'FTL' drives in SF don't literally assume you can go
faster than light. They use 'warp drives' through 'Hyperspace',
which is usually defined to be an alternate universe of some sort
which has a one-to-one mapping onto our universe, but is much
smaller. There are many variations on this theme, of course. So
there is no violation of Relativity.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 85 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #253
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 253

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Blish & Chalker &
                             The Oz Canon (5 msgs),
                     Films - Red Sonja,
                     Television - Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 85 10:27:46 GMT
From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM
Subject: Spindizzies

A few issues ago somebody asked something to the effect of, "By the
way, what are spindizzies, anyway?"  It's obvious that you have a
good read ahead of you - _Cities_in_Flight_ by James Blish. 'Nuff
said.

Keith M. Dale
(kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa)
BBN Comm Corp
Stuttgart, W. Germany

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 15:32:03 PDT
Subject: Another quote from Jack Chalker

     Regarding the recent discussion about sequels, consider this
from Jack Chalker's _The_River_of_Dancing_Gods_:

"The Books of Rules, Volume 16, page 103, section 12(d). . .'All
   epics must be at least trilogies,'. . ."

Bruce N. Wheelock
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: The Oz canon and the film
Date: 3 Jul 85 01:29:42 GMT

>From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-icsa>
>Book 41: a few months ago, I saw a book named "A Barnstormer In
>Oz", by Philip Jose Farmer (I think--it sounds right, since he's
>the self-appointed chronicler/perpetuator of a number of
>"mythologies").  Anyone read it?

Yes, I read the thing.  This is a spoiler, in case anyone cares.

Farmer presents the story of a barnstormer (test pilot?) who
disappears through a "dimensional gate" which is a few hundred feet
above ground, open when certain weird electrical conditions are met.

His pilot has no particular personal charm.  This individual
discovers that Oz is a besieged place ruled by the iron hand of a
sex-witch (Glinda) who uses her powers to hold off the influx of the
energy creatures from the desert regions which surround the oasis of
Oz.  Every once in a while one of the less malevolent energy
creatures inhabits some mechanism, like the tin statue, or the
Barnstormer's airplane.

Dorothy is postulated to be a young girl who was accidentally thrown
into Oz by a tornado, and that Baum was a neighbor who got the story
from her when she returned later, and adapted it into a series of
children's fairy tales.  The majority of the story concerns the
interaction between the other-dimensional Oz and the American
military.

As usual, Farmer completely destroys the character of the stories,
making something cheap, tawdry, and mildly pornographic out of the
mileu of Oz.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  4 Jul 1985 03:25:33-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Oz books

I won't repeat the wealth of Oz information that others have so
eloquently given, but one point remains to be questioned:

> From: mccullough.pa@Xerox.ARPA
> Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton
> bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most
> were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and
> published under Baum's name.

I assume that you refer to the recent Del Rey trade paper reprints
of some of the Ruth Plumly Thompson Oz books. If so, your "little
known fact" is dead wrong. They were *not* published "under Baum's
name" --- the by-line is very clearly Ruth Plumly Thompson. There
*is* a line referring to the books as "continuing the famous stories
of L. Frank Baum" or somesuch (I can't quote it directly) and
granted, it's in type as big as the title or by-line, but that's
another matter entirely.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: The Oz canon and PJF's "Barnstormer in OZ"
Date: 5 Jul 85 18:16:17 GMT

hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
>>From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-icsa>
>>Book 41: a few months ago, I saw a book named "A Barnstormer In
>>Oz", by Philip Jose Farmer
>
>As usual, Farmer completely destroys the character of the stories,
>making something cheap, tawdry, and mildly pornographic out of the
>mileau of Oz.

As usual?

Disclaimer : I haven't read any of Baum's books but I have seen the
Judy Garland film.

What Farmer does is to look at a fictional place/situation as if it
was *real*! This implies an adult, rational view of fantastic
situations i.e.  how *does* the strawman *exist*? I can appreciate
Baum's readers would be offended, as Hutch above ... but, I found
the book quite entertaining.  I guess, as always, its up to you, but
if you want to take a different view of a well-known place, this is
worth a read.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Re: Re: Aux armes, Citoyens!
Date: 2 Jul 85 02:55:00 GMT

>...as well as the several Oz books written after Baum's death I
>don't remember the author's name.)

there were more Oz books written after Baum died than he himself
wrote.  The author was female(!) and wrote about 18 books, for a
total of abou t 35 books before 1954.
                                        orstcs/richardt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 85 09:41:42 EDT (Monday)
From: foltman.Henr@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Oz Books - Ruth Plumly Thompson

Ruth Plumly Thompson was the niece of Lyman Frank Baum. She used to
listen to many of the stories that Baum used to tell as she was
growing up, so she was familiar with the characters.  More
information on the topic of Baum, Thompson, and Oz can be found in
The Annotated Wizard of Oz by Michael Patrick Hearn, or from the
International Wizard of Oz Club, c/o Fred Meyer, Secretary, Box 95,
Kinderhook, IL 62345. The Baum Bugle presents some interesting
little known facts on many different subjects.
                     Mary Ann Foltman (foltman.henr)

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: "Red Sonja"
Date: 5 Jul 85 06:56:00 GMT

     "Red Sonja" could be worse, so I can't complain too much about
it.  Basically, it's a sword and sorcery potboiler, just as I
expected.  It has some unexpectedly good points and some
unnecessarily bad ones.  If one likes this sort of thing, the bad
points won't entirely ruin it.  Oddly, though, some the good points
won't make too much difference to fans of this sort of film.

     Red Sonja (having very little relation to the character in one
of Robert Howard's Conan stories) is a woman warrior who seeks to
avenge the death of her family.  An evil queen slaughtered them all
when Sonja refused to be her lover.  After the massacre, Sonja meets
up with something suspiciously reminiscent of Glinda the Good.
Whatever this special effect is supposed to be, it somehow gives her
strength to become a powerful swordswoman. While she's off training,
her sister, who must have missed out on the massacre, is helping
neutralize a powerful green globe which, unless kept in darkness,
will shortly destroy the world.  The evil queen bursts in at the
appropriate moment, slaughters all the priestesses, and steals the
globe for her predictably nefarious purposes.  Sonja's sister
escapes, fatally wounded, to the arms of someone who isn't Conan but
is played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, who takes her to Sonja, who
swears to recover the globe, and we're off to the races.  Silly plot
complications, in the form of a child prince and his loyal protector
and a romantic subplot between Sonja and Arnie (hindered by Sonja's
hatred for men and her oath to give herself only to a man who can
beat her in a fair fight) serve only to pad the film to a sellable
length, 88 minutes, in this case.

     Bad points first.  Most important is Brigitte Neilsen, who
plays Red Sonja.  She is beautiful and well trained in the martial
arts.  Unfortunately, she makes Tanya Roberts look like Katherine
Hepburn.  Boy, is she bad!  Most unfortunately, laughable as her
line readings are, she isn't the worst performer in the film.  That
honor goes to Ernie Reyes, Jr., who plays the young prince.  By the
end of the film, I was almost praying that his character would be
killed so that I wouldn't have to listen to him mangling any more
lines or watch another of his excruciating expressions.  His only
apparent qualification for the part is a proficiency in martial
arts, but even in his fight scenes his grating personality comes
through like fingernails scraped on a blackboard.  The greatest
disappointment of "Red Sonja", though, has to be the performance of
Sandahl Bergman.  Ms. Bergman was so good in "Conan the Barbarian"
that it is saddening to see her give such a bad performance as the
wicked queen.  I find it hard to convince myself that she is the
same actress.

     Getting back to Master Reyes, who receives my coveted Clint
Howard Award for worst new child actor of 1985, even without seeing
the rest of the year's films, his inclusion points out another flaw
in "Red Sonja".  I have no doubt that all connected with the film
found him just as annoying as I did, but I suspect they had no
choice.  Why?  Because screenwriters Clive Exton and George McDonald
Fraser wrote a vital part for a kid who could do martial arts, and I
doubt if any other boy actor was capable of handling this
requirement.  This is a fundamental error in the script, one of
many.  Budding screenwriters take note: never write a part that is
too hard to cast, or you may see your picture ruined by the likes of
Ernie Reyes, Jr., or, for that matter, by Brigitte Neilsen.  Other
flaws with the script are lack of inventiveness, poor to mediocre
dialog, muddled logic, and some outright continuity gaps.  As an
example of the latter, Sonja is told by the prince's henchman that
she can get to the wicked queen's domain by a long safe route or a
short dangerous one.  Naturally, she takes the latter, survives it
(whoops, a spoiler), and moves on, only to find ahead of her ...
the prince, who was taking the long route.  I am particularly
disappointed in Fraser, who writes a fine adventure novel (I
recommend his Flashman series) and wrote the screenplay for "The
Three Musketeers" and "The Four Musketeers" some years back.  I
expected a lighter touch and a bit more imagination from him.

     Richard Fleischer's direction is neither a plus nor a minus.
He does a competent hack job.  I would have hoped that the son of
one of the Fleischer Brothers, crazed animators of the 1930s, would
have had a bit more imagination.  The vacuity of the project seems
to have sapped out of him whatever ideas he might have had, as it
did on "Conan the Destroyer".  On the other hand, Fleischer is a
very old hand on sword epics, going back to "The Vikings" in 1958
(one of the beloved films of my mispent youth), and the experience
shows when it comes time to draw the weapons and start hacking
about.  Moreover, Fleischer deserves a break on the basis of age,
being nearly 70.  Few directors have the stamina left to do even a
polite, low key drawingroom comedy at that age, much less a big
special effects/action film.  Ennio Morricone's score is another
neutral item, but a disappointment, as it proves that Morricone,
too, is a mere mortal and cannot be counted on to always come up
with a great score.

     On the plus side, Arnold Schwarzenegger is really developing a
flair for this sort of thing.  He starts off a bit shakily, but
eventually gets on track, giving a convincing enough performance as
the brawny hero.  He's given less opportunities for humor, a talent
he began to show in "The Terminator" and "Conan the Destroyer",
which is a pity.  Paul Smith is fairly good as the young prince's
bearlike servitor.  Ronald Lacey is superb as the evil queen's
henchman, giving a nicely calculated performance with just enough
camp and just enough menace.  It's a pity the picture doesn't use
him more effectively.

     The swordfights are quite well staged.  They result in
precisely the maximum amount of blood, severed limbs, and disgusting
sounds of weapons entering flesh to avoid an R rating.  The effects
are fair to good, with some shaky matte work, some good, etc.  The
production design is excellent, really strange and creepy.  Most
fans of this sort of film will barely notice, but Danilo Donati
(Fellini's favorite designer) has really done a splendid job in
created a very foreign environment.  Cinematographer Giuseppe
Rotunno, another Fellini alumnus, contributes good photography.

     Sometimes I like to speculate about unlikely directors and
projects.  The presence of Donati and Rotunno makes me wonder what
"Red Sonja" would have been like if, somehow, producer Dino de
Laurentiis had persuaded Fellini, his old colleague, to direct it.
Now that's a movie I'd like to see.  Or how about if George Lucas
talked Ingmar Bergman out of retirement to make the next Star Wars
movie?  I consider it a minor tragedy that it is too late to see a
Luis Bunuel James Bond movie, or a Sergei Eisenstein Friday the 13th
sequel.  And what, I wonder, would Orson Welles do with "Third
Blood"?  Alas, producers aren't gamblers and most amateurs don't
have the sense of humor required to get involved with this kind of
project, but it's fun to speculate.  Fassbinder could have done some
very strange things with Indiana Jones, I'm sure.

     But, getting back to the subject at hand, taken as a whole,
"Red Sonja" is a slightly better than average adventure picture,
marred largely by dreadful performances in key roles.  Fans of the
genre will probably like it, non-fans will be unsurprised to hear
that they might as well skip it.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@ucla-cs.arpa
                        soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Re: "Where no man has gone before"
Date: 3 Jul 85 06:56:00 GMT

>How likely is it that anyone would send so expensive a ship off
>into nowhere for 5 years?

Very.  As a general rule, exploration ships fall into two classes:
unarmed and armed.  Unarmed exploration ships are usually designed
so that they are so pathetic as to not be a threat to anyone.  Marco
Polo did this and it worked fairly well, albeit with a few backfires
along the way.  Armed explorers tend to be armed with the most
powerful weapons that the society can hand to a non-military ship.
When you already know of several hostile races in your neck of the
galaxy, it is far better to assume that the natives will shoot first
and ask questions later than to lose crews in the nether regions of
the universe.  For one thing, the appearance of an alien ship is
usually a dead give-away as to its origin.  Besides this, the
Enterprise was travelling in regions which were known to have
Klingon ships running around in them.  In a situation where a nation
is exploring out from a multinational border, esp. when one of the
nations is hostile, the explorers had better be armed.  Besides,
human ships are always armed.  Haven't you read any space opera?

As for naming, I believe most of the visible stars have been named.
I see no reason to assume that this trend will stop anytime in the
future.  Man, as a race, is arrogant.  As long as StarFleet sticks
to names of the form Starname-Planet_#, they're on well established
ground.
                                        orstcs/richardt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 85 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #254
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 254

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cherryh & Wilson & Zelazny &
                        SF Poll (2 msgs) & 
                        Time Control Stories (3 msgs),
                Television - Time Travel Special,
                Miscellaneous - Westercon 38

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: fluke!moriarty@topaz.arpa (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Query on the release date for CHANUR'S VENGEANCE
Date: 3 Jul 85 09:03:43 GMT

Having just finished of CHANUR'S VENTURE, I am, of course,
restlessly awaiting the next book.  Anyone have any idea when that
will be?  Please mail responses to me, and I will forward any
answers I get to interested parties in two weeks.

Huh.
                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
                                        John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsri}!uw-beaver \
    {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax}
    !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Colin Wilson and LIFEFORCE
Date: 7 Jul 85 16:34:25 GMT

            Colin Wilson, SPACE VAMPIRES, and LIFEFORCE
                     A review by Mark R. Leeper

     The release of the film LIFEFORCE, based on the novel SPACE
VAMPIRES by Colin Wilson, has sparked some discussion of Wilson's
science fiction.  Wilson's novels, like the film LIFEFORCE, are for
rather specialized tastes and are generally quite unpopular.  They
do, however, have some avid fans.  While I am not one, I did enjoy
his novels and my defense of his writing has, on occasion, given
rise to scorn among local science fiction fans.  Our local science
fiction society once voted his MIND PARASITES the second worst of
about fifty discussion books.  Yet I still consider it to be at
times one of the most interesting science fiction books I remember
reading, due in large part to having the most unusual alien menace.

     So who is Colin Wilson?  He is usually considered to be a
philosopher; I think he wrote a book called THE OUTSIDER on the
meaning of being a social pariah.  The book apparently achieved some
popularity.  Then one day he noticed that H. P. Lovecraft had
written a story called "The Outsider."  He read it and did not like
it.  August Derleth, a friend of Wilson's as well as a big Lovecraft
fan, suggested that Wilson try to write something better.  So Wilson
wrote his first science fiction novel with the rather lurid title
THE MIND PARASITES.  In it he said that human philosophy tended to
be optimistic up to a point, then it turned more pessimistic.  You
started getting degenerate philosophies like that of the Marquis de
Sade.  It was his claim that we had been attacked by some alien
force that fed off of negative human emotion like depression and
sadism.  He includes the most amazing descriptions of battles with
the aliens taking place, literally, but not figuratively, in his
mind.  The aliens would attack and he would start feeling rather
dismal.  Then suddenly he would hit them with a blast of pure
optimism, and they would scatter!

     The premise of the story also says that we have involved to the
point where we really are telepathic and telekinetic, but the
parasites sap off the energy we need to use these faculties.  In
spite of the trashy title, I found the story had several interesting
ideas to chew on.  The ideas were the virtue of the story far more
than the story line, but I find many people who really detest the
book for reasons I never understood.  I have heard people who
recommend books with far weaker story lines complain that the story
line of this book is weak.  The best I can tell is that there is
just something indefinable in the book that rubs people the wrong
way.

     Wilson's second science fiction novel is THE PHILOSOPHER'S
STONE.  In many ways it is much like the first novel, though it
moves considerably more slowly.  The concept is that by special
treatments involving the insertion of a special electrical
conductor, the brain can be made far more efficient.  Among other
things, it allows the user to mentally time-travel, and in one
sequence a character places himself in Shakespeare's England, only
to have many of his cherished beliefs shattered.  There is again
some alien menace, as I remember, but it is a theme that is not well
dealt with.  I can remember liking this the best of the three
science fiction novels that Wilson has written, but it has been nine
years or so since I read it so my memory is weak.

     The worst of the three is SPACE VAMPIRES.  Inspired by the
story "Asylum" by A. E. Van Vogt, it concerns an alien life-form
brought to Earth.  The creatures, who seem to be able to jump from
body to body, suck up lifeforce from people they come in contact
with.  The premise of the book, unlike that of the film, is that the
aliens are not really unique.  We--all of us--are lifeforce
vampires.  That's why fresh vegetables taste better to us than stale
ones; they retain lifeforce which we consume.  Sex is (among other
things) a lifeforce transaction.  Good sex will involve the trading
of lifeforce and each side will end up with more.  In sadistic sex,
one partner gets more lifeforce by depleting the other.

     That is one odd thing about SPACE VAMPIRES: it has sex, but it
is the least gratuitous sex of any novel I can think of.  The
explanations of energy exchanges are all-important.  We all
understand what is going on when there is sex in a Harold Robbins
novel, but in this book there is more going on as part and parcel of
the sex act.

     But the monsters of SPACE VAMPIRES go beyond the human sort of
vampirism.  They accumulate lifeforce but, like a leaky tire, cannot
hold on to it and very soon need more.  The film, incidentally,
could have used this explanation very nicely since it would explain
why the victims seem to collect lifeforce but they need more so
soon.  On the other hand, in many ways the film is better than its
source.  The contagion of the vampirism in the film makes the menace
much more serious.  The effect of the invasion in the book would be
to increase by two or three the number of sex maniacs in the world.
In the film we are dealing with possible world destruction.  On top
of that, there is considerably more plot to the film than there was
in the book.  The book has the plot of the first half hour of the
film and an incident or two that was in the film later.  And then
the book has two sequences not in the film.  One is a visit to a
Swedish expert on vampirism and one is a discussion with the Prime
Minister.  That and some discussion is about all there is to the
book.  There is actually a lot more that happens in the film.  While
the screenplay could have used more explanations, in many ways it
was an improvement on the book.

     But of course, the strong suit of the book is its ideas.
Wilson uses his lifeforce premise to explain much about traditional
vampires.  I, for one, enjoy the DARKER THAN YOU THINK or FIVE
MILLION YEARS TO EARTH sort of story where the supernatural turns
out to be scientific phenomena that have been wrongly interpreted.
The problem is that Wilson does not seem to know much science.  He
starts including all sorts of already discredited ideas (like
Kirlian photography) as accepted scientific fact.  That
unfortunately discredits much of his thinking.

     Still, while this is the least enjoyable of the three Wilson
novels, it was an enjoyable read, particularly after having seen the
film.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai"
Date: 8 Jul 85 03:04:09 GMT

"1.  Mt. Fuji from Owari

"Kit lives, though he is buried not far from here; and I am dead,
though I watch the days-end pinking cloudstreaks above the mountain
in the distance, a tree in the foreground for suitable contrast.
The old barrel-man is dust; his cask, too, I daresay.  Kit said that
he loved me and I said I loved him.  We were both telling the truth.
But love can mean many things.  It can be an instrument of
aggression or a function of disease."

This story appeared in the July 1985 issue of Asimov's; I believe
the August issue just appeared on the stands.=( I picked it up on
the strength of Zelazny's name.

If you haven't liked his other stories involving computers (e.g.,
"Home is the Hangman", and the rest of MY NAME IS LEGION), I suspect
you won't like this one.  If you don't like the games he's played
with religions and gods (e.g., LORD OF LIGHT and PRINCES OF LIGHT
AND DARKNESS), you probably won't like this story, though it's not
the same game.  If you don't like his writing style (I quoted the
beginning of the story above), avoid this one.  And by the way, see
if you can get someone to surgically implant some taste into your
soul.

This is a story of a woman undergoing a pilgrimage.  She travels
through Japan, visiting sites where twenty-four sketches of Mt. Fuji
were drawn (by a ancient Japanese artist named Hokusai).  She
dreams.  She ponders.  She fights - but not often or long.  If
you're looking for action, go watch a re-run of STAR WARS (go ahead,
I'll wait).

The first time I read "24 Views", I was startled by the brilliance
of the writing.  (The prose is not Zelazny at his best, which is not
brilliant, but blinding).  The second time I read it, I was
disappointed at the lack of action, and concerned about some
ambiguities and the nature of a computer net's behavior in regard to
the ending.  (I give him the epigons.  I'm generous.  Also, ignorant
of the term and any relation to Japanese tradition.)  On the third
reading, I was still concerned about the net and the ending, but I
came to understand better what I'd considered ambiguities.  (Some
are deliberately left ambiguous; some are merely subtle.)

Not bad.  Keep "24 Views" in mind, come Hugo nomination time.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Jul 85 14:00:48-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #247

FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA writes
> First, the meaning of Canonical.  Since we are not engaged in a
> religious discussion, I assume the intended meaning is

(-8 Well, maybe not a *Roman Catholic* religious discussion.  8-)

I thought that the list was supposed to contain the books that most
sf fans have read and found good (for whatever reason); the books
that every sf fan should have read; the books that non-sf critics of
sf should read before they start flaming or writing critical
histories (Anyone else tired of arguing with people who have read
only _The_Space_Vampires_ and _The_Purple_Cloud_ and decided that
all sf is like them?); and have suggestions of good books that some
of us have missed.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 5 Jul 85 20:45:05-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #247

>Nuclear Aftermath: Miller, A Canticle for Leibowitz
>                   Stewart, Earth Abides

Actually, if I remember correctly, Earth_Abides was about the
aftermath of a biological, rather than nuclear disaster.

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA:  evan@csli.arpa
UUCP:  ...!ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan

------------------------------

From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan)
Subject: Controling time
Date: 1 Jul 85 06:23:38 GMT

>From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
>Mike Parsons asked for some good stories about controlling time, as
>opposed to simply time-travel.

Let's not forget Keith Laumers Lafayette O'Leary stories.  I think
the first was called _The Time Bender_.  I found them very enjoyable
(I haven't yet dared read the latest in the series, given the
unrelieved badness of Laumer's recent work - what has happened to
this guy?  (Laumer, not O'Leary)).

Ted Nolan              ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted  (UUCP)
6536 Brookside Circle  ...akgua!usceast!ted
Columbia, SC 29206     allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe)

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time
Date: 4 Jul 85 03:14:37 GMT

> Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about
> CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel
> (controlling your local time)?

There is a story lurking somewhere in the back of my mind which is
about *both* and the cross-effects between them.  People are
travelling among coexisting probable universes, and for some reason
the separateness between these realities is breaking down.

The protagonist is the last of the Plantagenets if that helps.  My
memory may be inaccurate in recalling the title as "Assignment in
..." (I can't quite dredge up that last word).

Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp

------------------------------

From: inmet!apt@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: SF on controlling Time
Date: 2 Jul 85 14:11:00 GMT

I read a short story in a High School french class about rationing
time during a war (maybe WWII?).  Anyway, people received ration
tickets, the number depending upon how much time they needed to
perform their jobs for the rest of society.  However, rich people
would buy ration tickets from poorer people.  They then discovered
that there is an "infinite" amount of time between two days (at
midnight).  The people who sold their tickets would just disappear
until the next month.  Meanwhile, the rich people are living right
through 'til June 56th, for instance.  It's a very good,
light-hearted story.
                        Alan Taylor
                        ...harpo!inmet!apt
                        ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!apt
                        ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!apt

------------------------------

From: hou2a!pjk@topaz.arpa (P.KEMP)
Subject: Time Travel TV Special
Date: 8 Jul 85 13:43:06 GMT

WNEW (Channel 5) in New York City will be airing "Time Travel: Fact,
Fiction and Fantasy" on Thursday, July 11 at 9 PM EDT.

The one hour special, hosted by Michael J. Fox (who stars in the
movie "Back to the Future"), "focuses on various ideas about the
nature of time and includes discussions of these ideas as proposed
by H. G. Wells, Albert Einstein and present day experts such as Dr.
Carl Sagan and Dr. Edwin Krupp."

The program also looks at time travel in literature, motion pictures
and television.

Unfortunately, I don't think The Doctor will be mentioned, due to
the emphasis on Hollywood productions.

The special may be aired by other Metromedia or independent stations
this week - check your local TV listings.

                        Paul Kemp
                        ihnp4!hou2a!pjk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 12:45 PDT
From: "Franz Mark"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: WESTERCON 38 and The Pournelle/ARPANET Split

We attended the WESTERCON 38 SF convention held in Sacramento, CA,
over the July 4th weekend.  At WESTERCON we talked with Jerry
Pournelle about why he never contributed to the SF-LOVERS bb since
he had an account at MIT-MC.  He said his account at MIT-MC was
terminated by some "graduate student" in charge of accounting, who
felt he did not have a need for an account.  He knows who this
"graduate student" is, and he refuses to grovel so that his account
is reinstated.  However, he asked us to broadcast this little story
- presumably so that MIT-MC will come to him.
  BTW - if you ever get a chance to meet Jerry Pournelle, you will
not be dissappointed.  Sequel to FOOTFALL:-)

                HARPANET FOR PRESIDENT,
                HUSENET FOR VICE-PRESIDENT.

Also planned is a sequel (and a prequel) to THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE.
WESTERCON 38 was run very well.  In addition to Jerry, we spent
several hours talking with Greg Bear, Norman Spinrad, Robert Adams,
James P. Hogan, Larry Niven, John Brunner, and David Brin.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 85 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #255
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 255

Today's Topics:

         Books - Schmidt & Saberhagen & Footfall (2 msgs) &
                 Some Book Reviews,
         Television - Star Trek,
         Miscellaneous - Fixing SF & Spoilers & SF Conventions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 85 12:55:48 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>

I believe the story about the aliens fleeing the galaxy with their 
planets and all (stopping along the way to gather up the Earth), is 
called "The Sins of the Fathers" by Stanley Schmidt.  I remember it 
being serialized in Analog and I remember that gorgeous cover by Kelly
Freas, but I am not certain about the title/author (I'm in Pittsburgh
now and all my books are in NJ).

        Steve Z

------------------------------

From: mercury@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Larry E. Baker)
Subject: Re: Berserker and Terminator
Date: 6 Jul 85 02:07:37 GMT

>   A race of mechanical killing machines bent on conquering all
> life. They were created long ago as warriors for a now extinct
> race fighting a long forgotten war. They fight all life forms and
> continually build more and more replacements. They have been known
> to spare the lifes of humans who are useful to them.
>
>   Berserkers or Cylons?
>
> Perhaps Saberhagen should demand credit (or blame) for Battlestar
> Ponderosa.

I don't think I agree.  In the Berserker stories, the Berserkers
were *really* massive machines, some as large as a small moon,
intent on literally cleansing the planets of *all* life, down to the
microbes.  Consider "A Teardrop Falls."  Indeed, they were machine
intelligence, but of a vastly different sort than the Cylons.

As memory serves, the Cylons (in the movies, not the books) were
*man-shaped* machine intelligences, more robot than intelligence, who
considered themselves more as a race than a collection of hardware.  I
don't recall exactly, but I think that the Cylons were intent mainly
on eliminating Humanity; they weren't interested in *all* life forms.

I find "The Doomsday Machine" (of STAR TREK fame) much more similar to
the Berserker series than the Battlestar Ponderosa fiasco, and I
suspect that the writer who wrote that story got the idea from
Saberhagen, although the idea is sufficently different to preclude any
legal action.
                                                 Larry Baker
{seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury.UUCP
mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA
ut-ngp!mercury@ut-sally.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 85 12:55:48 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>

Not having my copy of Footfall with me (I am at work, it is at home in
my apt.), I can't come up with all the characters names for the 
Dreamers Fithp but I shall try to remember how I thought they mapped 
into real life:

        Wade Curtis -> Jerry Pournelle
        The Ansons -> The Heinleins (did anyone miss this one?)
        Writer with loud vest (I've forgotten the character's name)
                        -> Dr. Robert Forward
        Writer who was away at Con and travels Colorado
                        -> I'm note sure, but this seems to be Niven
        female writer -> ?????

That was the best I could come up with, I based my guesses mostly on 
widely known quirks of the writers.

        Steve Z

------------------------------

From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock)
Subject: Footfall-Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (New Fiction)
Date: 5 Jul 85 19:57:32 GMT

                              FOOTFALL
                  Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
                  Ballantine Books, New York, 1985

Larry and Jerry have done it again!!

"WHAT!?", I hear you cry.  Another near classic homo sapiens meets
aliens with tragic flaw like "The Mote In God's Eye"?  Or another
end-of-civilization epic like "Lucifer's Hammer"?

Yes, and Yes.

In fact, "Footfall" provides us with both, as earthlings encounter
their first alien species AND heavenly bodies fall from the skies
into the ocean.  It is not difficult to imagine the dynamic duo in
the writing room gathering together left-over brain-storms from the
previous two books, shuffling them together, padding out the holes
and producing this hybrid.

Characterization: Many readers complain that science fiction writers
ignore characterization in their efforts.  This is certainly true in
this case.  The human characters in this book have one thing in
common.  They don't have any, no personalities or definable
motivations.  In fact, these people are not so much characters as
roles from a tv mini-series: the dissatisfied military wife; the
ambitious, philandering reporter; the dashing but impotent
astronaut; the boozy biker turned hero; the soggy-brained sci-fi
writer; the space-happy congressman; the wishy-washy President; the
wily Kosmonaut; the trendy survivalists.  Each and every one bustles
through the overall plot like a wind-up toy.

As for the aliens, it is understandable, perhaps, that the reader
have difficulty comprehending the inner workings of an alien psyche,
but in this case, so little is revealed about the aliens and their
origin that the Invaders are merely antagonists in the most literal
(and literary) sense of the word.  One supposes that they are given
the form and characteristics of a slightly familiar earth species in
order for the reader to catch on without undo description.  The
trickiest aspect of these Invaders is their names.  Unless you are a
Pole with a lisp, you will spend a good deal of time flipping back
and forth through the pages trying to keep track of who's who (with
one exception).  Not only do they all look alike, they all sound
like a sneeze through wired jaws.

Well, how about ideas?  Footfall trots out a few, some standard
sci-fi shticks, some perhaps original.  1) Whoever controls space
controls activity on the planet.  How timely.  2) The intrepid
Americans take a stand when nobody else will.  3) The military will
save the day while the civilians dither.  4) Extraterrestrial
species have been aided in their evolution by a previous (usually
now extinct) race (see Heechee).  Human beings, of course, are the
cosmic bootstrappers.  5) The obvious talents of science-fiction
writers are finally recognized, as civilization turns to their
superior insights to psych out the aliens.

In summary, there is very little (if anything) new or innovative in
Footfall.  It is certainly not on a par with "Mote" or "Lucifer's
Hammer", or just about any of the other Niven-Pournelle offerings.
And unless you are particularly taken by the dust-cover, it might be
just as well to wait and see what they come up with next, together
or individually.

Some Other New Books This Summer:

Frederik Pohl           Black Star Rising       Ballantine Books 1985
Robert Silverberg       Tom O'Bedlam    Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1985
Roger Zelazny           Trumps of Doom (Another Amber Series Book)
                        Arbor House 1985
Stephen King            Skeleton Crew (Anthology)
                        G.P. Putnam and Sons 1985

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: New Reads
Date: 30 Jun 85 23:40:45 GMT

Not to interrupt the raging discussions of Space 1999 and the
Covenant books (*) but I thought I'd comment briefly on two books
I've recently read, _Null A Three_, A.E. Van Vogt and _Between the
Strokes of Night_ by Charles Sheffield.

_Null A Three_ is the long-awaited threquel to _Players of Null A_
and _World of Null A_.  The introduction briefly discusses the
history of the series and recaps the action in the first two books
(necessary for many readers, since it has been a 20 year gap between
the 2nd and 3rd books).

Overall, I wasn't too pleased with this book.  It seems quite
perfunctory and mechanical.  I was much impressed with the earlier
Null A books, though that may have been my fascination with the idea
of General Semantics, which seemed much more revolutionary to me as
a high school student than it does now as a worldly, jaded grad
studetn.

At some point this third book becomes a sort of space opera (so much
so that you wonder if EE is back).  Worse, it doesn't draw any
particular conclusions, or milk the possibilities inherent in
General Semantics or Gilbert's extra brain.  Instead it is mostly an
action book, with confrontations between the main characters from
the other books and TWO new alien species, neither of which is
particularly well drawn or studied.  There are also quite a few new
characters with deus ex style powers to confuse things further.

All in all, a fairly mechanical sequel.  Buy it and read it if
you're a Null A fan, but don't expect anything exciting.

_Between the Strokes of the Night_, on the other hand, is an
interesting hard-science style book.  I haven't read any of
Sheffield's other books (_The Selkie_ and _Sight of Proteus_ are
mentioned on the cover), but the back cover blurb from Analog says
"...(delivers) a steady stream of the mind stretching ideas
Sheffield is noted for."  I can't speak for his work in general, but
this book at least presents some interesting ideas (not all new)
worked in interesting ways.

A caveat at this point: I'm only about half-way through, so I may
end up disappointed if the ending sucks.

Sheffield's writing style is somewhat reminiscent of Niven at his
better moments (i.e., 10 years ago).  His characters are somewhat
better drawn, but it is mainly the force of ideas and inventions
that drive the story.  Briefly, BTSOTN is about the development of
Mankind over the space of some 20,000 years (anyone else like these
eternity spanning plots?), mainly through his development of new
technology and his adaptation to new environments.  There is less
light given to psychological changes in the race (the humans of
20000+ seem no different from the humans of 2000, though there are
segments of the population that are vastly changed [I'm just getting
to that part]).

All in all, a good, absorbing read.  I stayed out too long in the
sun because of this book, which is, I think, a fairly high
recommendation.
                                        -- Scott Turner

(*) Which isn't to say that we don't need a good raging discussion
of Covenant going.  What would SF-Lovers be if we didn't have one of
the following going:

(a) Covenant discussion.  ("He's depressing", "He isn't", "He's
    depressing", "He isn't"...)
(b) Star Wars discussion.  ("The other hope is Leia", "No, it was
    Hans", "No, Leia", "No, Hans"...)
(c) Star Trek discussion ("The said kilometers", "No, they said
    krullmetters", "I have the video tape", "So do I")
(d) Space 1999 discussion ("She could shape-change", "She couldn't")
(e) LOTR ("Gandalf was the other hope", "No, he could shape change.")
(f) Argument with our token author, S. Brust ("You meant for Jaweh
    to appear evil", "I did not", "You did", "Hey, _I_ wrote the
    book", "So what?  You also like Zelazny.")

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 09:58:18-PDT
From: Jack <Palevich%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Star Trek Episode: "The Changeling" Question

A friend's doing a PhD disertation on SF, and is interested in
studying the Star Trek TV episode "The Changeling", in great detail.

(For those who don't remember, "The Changeling" had the NOMAD probe,
and was the basis for the first Star Trek Movie.)

So, does anybody know where my friend might find:

 a) The script for the original episode, and/or
 b) The author, a guy named "John Meredyth Lucas"?

(Reply directly to me, if possible.  Thanks!)

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes )
Subject: Re: a gauntlet accepted: fixes to 1999, Galactica
Date: 1 Jul 85 17:51:08 GMT

> SECTION 3:  CattleCar Badactica  (Uh sorry)
>
> c: Make the cylons aliens, for gosh sakes.

I recall reading the tie-in to the original show (I have forgotten
the author).  In it, the cylons *were* aliens, though a rather
peculiar sort.

> SECTION 2:  My most despised scene in STAR WARS III
>
>    You know the one I'm talking about: Vader Wimps Out.  They should
> have never taken off his mask ...

Ah yes, with this event all of my childhood hopes and aspirations
were dashed to the ground.

Darth was my hero, my role model.  I was one of the millions of high
school students (I have since outgrown that affliction) who watched
enthralled as this impressive figure ruthlessly eliminated his foes
... until that skinny, upstart farm-boy shot him out of the air
(vacuum?).

Later, of course, I realized that the Darth we saw in "Star Wars"
was not the true Darth Vader.  In "Star Wars" he occasionally shows
emotion; he actually seems to *care* about what those puny humans
(Darth is above humanity, of course) are doing around him.

In "Empire" we see the true Darth; cold, implacable, secure in the
knowledge that his schemes will succeed, using those puny humans as
tools to further said schemes.  Of course, his plans *do* succeed
(except for losing that annoying farm-boy), and all is well with the
galaxy.

Then came "Return of the Jedi."  More of the real Darth (how nicely
he manipulated that puppet emperor).  Then the dastardly farm-boy
shows up.  Darth not only loses the duel (everyone has an occasional
off-day), but he loses his ideals, and thus, his integrity ...

I went home thoroughly dejected.  How *could* Lucas have done this
to the hero of these films?  It wasn't supposed to be a tragedy.  I
guess we all need an occasional story of lost hope and demolished
dreams.

How *should* "Return of the Jedi" have ended?

Well-   that insipid farm-boy should have given in to Darth's
        superior abilities.

        the rebels should have been decimated (in the original,
        Latin sense), and forced to begin anew (thus paving the way
        for a third movie trilogy -- and further triumphs for Darth
        Vader).

        most important -- the ewoks should have been thoroughly
        eradicated ... just on general principles.

PS- sorry about the delay in this response; i've been on vacation.

USnail: 508 Wheel Rd.
        Bel Air, MD  21014
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,unc}!brl-bmd!jeffh
ARPA:   <brl-bmd!jeffh@seismo.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 85 22:38:02 PDT
Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers

Ken Moreau writes:
>Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel
>the way you do?

     When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader
may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created.
Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with
the characters.  I don't care for predictable books, and won't
finish one on the first attack.  For me, anyway, a book whose entire
course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other
factor will redeem it.
     Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example.  Another is the
Twilight Zone.  These, and others, live and die mostly on the
element of surprise.
     I do, on the other hand, reread books.  Those that delivered
strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story
lines.  Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my
interest months or years later.  Knowing the plot does not diminish
my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons.  But I
would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read.

Bruce N. Wheelock
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1985 19:45:28 PDT
Subject: SF convention
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

Does anyone have that list of upcoming SF conventions on-line
somewhere?

        Stuart

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 85 1005-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #256
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 256

Today's Topics:

                     Books - SF Poll (2 msgs),
                     Films - Day of the Dead & 
                             Cocoon & She Demons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 85 16:15:10 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: A neglected short story request

I've kept waiting for someone <anyone> else to supply some answers
to a couple of requests (now over a month old) from some obviously
novice SF lovers.  But it seems that everyone has his/her own
hobbyhorse, whether it is the continued furnishing of something
meritorious (e.g., consistently appearing reviews by apparently
responsible individuals), or intellectual masturbation, accompanied
by admonitions that others should 'go and do likewise'.  I feel that
the best means of encouraging excellence in this (or any) field is
the vigorous support of what one feels is worthwhile.  Why?  Because
publicity generates support.  Publicizing what you hate frequently
encourages others to 'check it out'-- especially if you have managed
by either deliberate or unintentional boorishness to profoundly
incense your audience.

>    From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>    Subject: Best of shorts poll

>In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like
>to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see
>which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no
>other reason...

Mine is a "lifetime" list, the product of reading SF for more than
20 years. ...  The list is alphabetical by author.  It includes
everything from very hard SF to fantasy.  An attempt at
classification appears following each.

 1. Poul Anderson, "Kyrie" (hard SF)
 2. David Brin, "The Loom of Thessaly" (hard)
 3. Mildred Downey Broxton, "Singularity" (semi-hard)
 4. Harlan Ellison, "A Boy and His Dog" ("hard") **
 5. Robert A. Heinlein, "The Long Watch" (hard; *very* old)
 6. C. M. Kornbluth, "The Little Black Bag" ("hard")
 7. Barry Longyear, "The Portrait of Baron Negay" (semi-hard)
 8. Jerry Pournelle, "He Fell Into a Dark Hole" (hard)
 9. Tom Reamy, "San Diego Lightfoot Sue" (fantasy) **
10. Charles Sheffield, "Killing Vector" (hard)
11. Cordwainer Smith, "A Planet Named Shayol"
    (Smith is quite unclassifiable.)
12. Norman Spinrad, "The Big Flash" ("hard") **
13. Ted Sturgeon, "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let
    One Marry Your Sister?" (psychological) **
14. James Tiptree, Jr., "Houston, Houston, Do You Read" (hard) **
15. Roger Zelazny, "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" (fantasy)

                              CAUTION
Some of these are "tuff enuf" (to use a long-outmoded phrase) to
freak you if they happen to hit your nerve (prejudices) just right.
Those stories with the asterisks are particularly offensive to the
thin-skinned.

The list is as eclectic as my tastes.  I.e., unless you're allergic
to having your thinking processes stimulated, don't assume that, if
you don't like one of the stories from this list that you won't like
any.

With no intended putdown to the living, (long may they continue to
live and write), some of the best (my opinion) writers from this
list are dead.  Kornbluth, Reamy, Smith, Sturgeon: each of them was
a great loss to their fans.  Reamy is particularly tragic.

I took the news (seen in SF Lovers Digest) of Sturgeon's death as a
personal loss.  He seemed to spend his time looking for windows of
the mind that had been painted shut, and wrested them open with
great jerks that often felt like pulling a tooth--but they were
always followed by glorious restorative zephyrs.

This list includes some "young" writers who have only hit their
stride: Brin, Longyear, Sheffield.  Others have publications credits
as long as your arm, and are still busily writing.

I shall submit information for the other neglected request in
another (hopefully shorter) message.

                                  Paula S. Sanch
                                  Tyger
Sanch%WSU-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@Rutgers.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  8 Jul 1985 08:48:19-PDT
From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack
From: anything you want with TECO and DDT)
Subject: Re:  Overlaps in Rawlins' List

Also note that

        6   The City and the Starts   Clarke

is a re-write of

        2   Against the Fall of Night   Clarke

        Kevin

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Day of the Dead review
Date: 8 Jul 85 02:20:11 GMT

DAY OF THE DEAD
Review by Jonathan D. Trudel

I recently had the displeasure of watching this long-awaited sequel
to two cult favorites-Night of the Living Dead, and Dawn of the
Dead.  This movie starts off at a similar point in time as DotD, but
does not have the same characters as DotD did.

{Begin Teaser-Spoiler follows later}

For those of you not familiar with the "___Dead" series, imagine if
you will today's world turned upside down.  For some unknown reason,
all the people that die become zombies that have a hankering for
human flesh. These movies have the lead protagonists trying to keep
themselves alive by whatever means possible, whether it be by
barricading themselves inside a shopping mall, or an old missile
silo, as in the case of Day of the Dead.  Anyhow, in Day of the
Dead, the zombies now populate the world(?), and humans are an
endangered species.  The US government set up a research facility
that was supposed to find a way to stop the menace, but things don't
go as planned...

{Begin Spoiler}

Well, let me tell you that this reviewer did not expect to see any
great work of cinematic art when this reviewer went to this film.
Actually, he expected to see Grade B all the way, but it never got
that good.  The plot line was simple enough, with the researchers
supposedly working on ways to stop the zombies from killing the rest
of humanity.  There are only about 12 people in the complex at the
time of the film, so the old adage 'too little, too late' still
holds.  The researchers are too under equipped, and under staffed to
produce any sort of results.  They have lost contact with the
government, and are trying to find a solution.  There are two
scientists working in different ways: one ('Dr. Frankenstein', so
dubbed for his experiments, whose name is the only one that comes to
mind) is trying to condition the zombies to stop eating people by
re-teaching them the 'culture' they left behind when they died,
where the other (the only female survivor, BTW) is supposed to be
working on a way to reverse the zombitizing process.  All is good
and well (as good and well as can be, given the situation), until
the leader of the military detachment dies (which happens at the
beginning of the film).  So, his second-in-command takes over, and
demands to see some results from the scientists, or else there will
be hell to pay (so to speak).  Eventually, tempers flare due to an
unfortunate accident, and the zombies enter the complex and start
their 'attack'.  The reviewer won't reveal the final outcome, but if
you see the film, you can probably guess what happens.

Ah yes, one other thing about these "___Dead" films: Gore {with a
capital 'g' nonetheless :-)}.  These films have a lot of it, and
they don't spare you from any of it.  You see it all, from
amputations to cannibalism of live subjects.  Pretty gruesome stuff,
but those who go to these movies generally expect it.  More on this
later.

So, those "___Dead" fans must now be asking themselves "So, how does
it stack up against the previous films?"  Well, in all honesty, this
reviewer preferred Dawn of the Dead.  in Day of the Dead, the
reviewer wanted more.  This reviewer kept asking itself why they
didn't show much of the actual research (except for some
semi-humorous tirades with 'Bub', the intelligent zombie).  This
film had a dark cloud hanging over it, one that said humanity will
not go out with a bang, but with a whimper, something that was
apparent in Dawn of the Dead, but not as emphasized.  Dawn of the
Dead toyed with us, hitting a soft spot/curious vein in all of us by
showing what life could be like if a handful of people had free
reign over a whole shopping mall.  Day of the Dead, however, did not
strike any familiar chords in this reviewer's heart (yes, it has
one).

"But," you say, "this is not why I would go to see Day of the Dead.
I go to see action, blood and guts."  Well, all this reviewer can
say is that the special effects are not up to the par they were in
Dawn of the Dead.  There are a few 'maulings' that are very fake
{the victims' heads are poorly positioned w/r/to from their
'bodies', the 'skin' looked unreal, spleens don't really go splurt
like that :-), etc.}.  What was more bothersome than the special
effects was the crowd.  The average age was under 20, and most of
them were applauding the violence, and were even screaming for more.
It was all rather senseless, but this reviewer guesses that that's
why they went to see it.  This movie was in the making for a few
years, and it should have been better as a result.  On an overall
scale of 1 to 10 (10 being highest), Day of the Dead rates a 3.  On
the trudel* scale of go-see-it-for-yourself-anyway-no-matter-what-
the-reviewer-says, it rates a 5.

* Denotes a patent pending (to protect to innocent from prosecution)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 09:08 EDT
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #245

In Cocoon, did anyone notice several passages of the background
music by James Horner as that from Star Trek II, which was also done
by Horner?  I mean it was exact, not a variation, like he borrowed
the master tape from Star Trek II and spliced it in.

I thought Cocoon was excellent.  I was warned by severl persons that
Lifeforce is a bomb.  Thanx to Peter Reiher for the excellent review
on both!

Cheers, Gern

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 11:32 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: A Candidate for Culthood

She Demons (1958)

Written and Directed by Richard E. Cunha, co-script H.E. Barrie

Starring Irish McCalla, Tod Griffin, Victor Sen Young, Rudolph
Anders and featuring the Diana Nellis Dancers.

      ****** Massive Spoiler, Were There Ought To Spoil ******

Hurricane Emily hits Surf City [trust me] and blows a boat carrying
Hero Griffin, Heroine McCalla, Sidekick Sen Young, and an Expendable
Fourth Party to an uncharted island.  They discover that the
transmit half of their radio is gone, but manage to overhear
transmissions from Navy planes who intend to bomb the island the
next day.  Looking around, they discover footprints on the beach.
("Thank goodness they're human." "I'm not so sure...there are
peculiar marks on the end of the toes...they could be claws.")

Well, now there is nothing for it but to walk in circles among the
potted palms.  They come back to camp to find the Expendable Fourth
Party speared and a strange corpse on the beach.  ("...a woman's
body..with the face of a demon.  A She Demon!").  Back to the potted
palms, where they encounter toothsome jungle maidens engaged in a
sensual (well, for 1958, anyway) ritual.  What should come out of
the foliage but a bunch of thugs in SS dress uniforms, who round up
the maidens.  Naturally Hero, Heroine, and Sidekick follow, and
discover ladies in cages.

Cut to a laboratory, where Mad Nazi Scientist Anders, equipped with
hypodermic and Peter Lorre accent, is performing a face transfusion
[trust me] from one of the toothsome jungle maidens ("Hmmm...a
healthy specimen...") to his horribly scarred wife ("Zoon you shall
be beautiful again, my dear...")

Cut back to Hero, Heroine and Sidekick, who find the door to the now
empty lab.  Naturally, they go inside and Hero and Heroine declare
undying love.  Their tryst is interrupted by Ugly Henchman of Mad
Nazi Scientist, who engages Hero ("OK Big Boy -- you looked pretty
good out there with those helpless women...let's see how you do with
me.") in hand-to-hand combat.  Ugly Henchman gets his, but there are
more where he came from, and everybody finds themselves in front of
the Mad Scientist for the obiligatory lecture ("Vat ve are doing is
electronically extracting ze heat from ze center of ze earth and
converting it to useful power." "What you are saying is...you have
accomplished perpetual motion." "You are quite correct.")

We then hear the story behind the face transplants ("She vas my
laboratory assistant...vun day, a terrible accident happened.  I
vowed to shpend ze rest of my life to make her beautiful...") and
the theory ("...ve all have in us a chemical quality composed of
genes zat gives us our personal appearance...I haff devised a very
complicated method by vich I can perfectly exchange zis secretion
between two living beings...") which of course horrifies our Heroine
("You're mad!  Completely Insane!" "No, my dear.  You are mistaken.
It is only unimaginative who cannot believe that man is capable of
improving on nature.")

Mad Scientist then has Heroine dressed in his wife's clothes and
forced to endure a champagne supper, where he goes into his Deeper
Motivations ("You see, I am very fond of my vife...but I am lonely")
Heroine is having none of this, and feels his rage ("Zen I haff only
vun alternative.  To utilize your beauty to further ze experiments
on my wife.")

We then get the Mad Flight Of The Terrified Heroine, which is tough
in a sheath dress and spike heels.  She meets up with the wife, who
had overheard the above pass being made and rejected ("You see, the
last time I wore that dress, it was in that very same room...just
before the accident.  Many years ago.  We were younger, and much in
love...").  Wife sympathizes with Heroine and furnishes both the key
to Hero and Sidekick's cell and the location of a handy rowboat.
Heroine changes back into her running clothes and frees Hero and
Sidekick.

But wait!  Who should be on the other side of the penultimate potted
palm but the Mad Scientist and his trusty Luger ("You are trembling.
You must be cold.  No vonder.  It is so late...I just remembered --
I have some important work tomorrow in ze laboratory.")

And cut to the laboratory, where Heroine is appropriately bound and
Hero and Sidekick are appropriately caged ("Please, I beg of you, do
what you want with us...but in Heaven's name, release the girl!").
Heroine is given one more chance to trade her honor for her face
(she chooses honor, spunky lass that she is).  The hypodermic moves
slowly toward her quivering neck when...the Navy arrives ("Do you
hear that?  Sounds like planes!").  The bombs fall, alarming Mad
Scientist ("Ze volcano vill erupt!") and freeing Hero and and
Sidekick, who unstrap Heroine.  Mad Scientist dies in a puddle of
hot mud, terribly scarred wife walks into the flames ("Would you
go...if you looked like this?"), there is one last chase, one last
embrace, and it's in the rowboat to freedom.

And there you have it, a film that stands for all that is rich and
true in speculative fiction.  Foreshadowing later treatments of
renewable energy, genetic engineering, female bonding in the face of
male exploitation and Freudian themes too numerous to mention, it
forms a natural thesis topic for aspiring candidates for a Ph.D.  in
Pulp Sensibility from the bicoastal institute of your choice.  A
Golden Turkey so obscure that it is not mentioned in Phil Hardy's
ultracomprehensive SF film encyclopedia.  Definitely not to be
watched while sober.

It ran on the SPN cable network the other night, and an enterprising
Con organizer should be able to find out from them what library it
is in.  It would offer a welcome change from the nth rerun of "Plan
9".  Try it, Camp Followers.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jul 85 1054-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #257
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 257

Today's Topics:

               Books - Adams & Chalker & Donaldson &
                       Heinlein (2 msgs) & MacDonald & 
                       Schmitz & Time Control Stories (3 msgs),
               Films - Back to the Future,
               Television - Star Trek & Dr Who,
               Miscellaneous - The Passing of James Doohan?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 85 09:45:18 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Douglas Adams Across the Atlantic
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

>> I can't say I've noticed any discrepancies between English and
>> American versions of SLATFATF, but in _Life, the Universe, and
>> Everything_, when Arthur Dent crossed the Atlantic he changed
>> from a "Complete A**hole" to a "Complete Kneebiter."  At least as
>> far as Wowbagger was concerned.
>>                                       Will Duquette
>
>Another change between the British and American versions of _Life,
>Universe, and Everything_ was the title of the award won by the
>person who possessed the silver bail.  The British version had the
>award going to the most gratuitous use of a famous four letter word
>beginning with F, denoting sexual relations, while in the American
>version, the award was for the most gratuitous use of the world
>"Belgium".  They also had to add a few extra sentences explaining
>this.

Funny, the "expurgated" version in both cases seems funnier to me.
(It's not often you'll find me saying that!)

But why did they feel they had to clean up the American version?

                                                --Peter Alfke
                                                  alfke.pasa@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Jul 85 13:56:04-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker  (**Little-bit-of-a-Spoiler Warning**)

>> In many of his stories [...]  a previously strong, likable female
>>character is transformed into some weird sort of mutant
>>sex-creature for no adequately explored reason.
>
>As far as I can tell, Chalker uses the *same* two ideas in every
>book he writes: shape change and mind control/tyranny.  He is
>reasonably inventive in coming up with variations on these, but as
>far as I am concerned, enough is enough.

I think that you're both missing the essential device (and
repetition) of Chalker's stories.  Yes, he always has shape changing
(and more to the point, *sex* changing); yes, a strong female
character is generally transformed into a sexual slave (in
Web_of_the_Chozen ?...I can't remember).  The main device which
links nearly all of his novels, though, is that every book has what
could be called "magic", and each one has it "explainable" by some
device or other (and in no case does he resort to a "sufficiently
advanced technology").

These ways include: The warden organisms in the "Four Lords of the
Diamond"; the Well World in the "Well of Souls" series; Flux in the
"Soul Rider" books; the probablity engineering in And_the_Devil_
Will_Drag_ You_Under; the Computer in Web_of_the_Chozen; and, of
course (my favorite) the Rule Books in the "Dancing Gods" series.
The only book of his that I've read that doesn't really use this as
a central theme is Downtiming_ the_Nightside, which still had a
computer controlling the effects of time travel.

This bothered me at first, but lately I've begun to enjoy seeing the
new ways that he can rationalize magic.  And even though he does use
so many recurrent themes, he manages to work them in differently
enough in each new book/series that he is consistently fun to read.

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA: evan@CSLI.ARPA
UUCP: ...ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: The Black Company Trilogy
Date: 8 Jul 85 08:28:34 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>  On the other hand, the love of suffering displayed by Donaldson's
>Ravers, and the constant self-disgust of Covenant and Linden Avery
>are simply loathesome, without the excuse of self-preservation.

Here I go again....

Covenants behaviour *WAS* self-preservation.  Come on, the guy was a
leper.  He had to face the fact that for the rest of his life he
would never, *NEVER* be able to feel things.  I don't know if you
realize it, but the sense of touch is about THE most prevalent one
in our life.  All the others (except maybe hearing) are selective
and are used only when needed.  Touch on the other hand is a sense
that is constantly working 24 hours a day.  You never really notice
it until you lose it.  But once you do, you realize just how much it
was used by you.

Covenant cannot touch.  He cannot feel.  He is impotent.  And to
survive, he has to isolate himself from everyone and to do that, he
presents a loathsome front to everyone he meets (even those he tries
to help).  When he enters the land, his senses are fully returned to
him, and he goes nuts.  The only way he can save his sanity is to
refuse to believe that he has actually been cured.

Don't tell me that Covenant doesn't act by an instinct for
self-preservation.  That's complete bull.

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

From: <bang!root@Nosc>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 13:35:53 pdt
Subject: Query on latest Heinlein?

Has anyone yet read Heinlein's latest; "Cats - A Comedy of
Manners"??

Supposed to be a sequel to or at least take place on the "luna" of
"Moon Is a Harsh Mistress".

I haven't been able to find it anywhere.  Sigh.

Bret Marquis
bam@NOSC
(ihnp4, sdcsvax)!bang!bam

------------------------------

From: vice!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Mueller)
Subject: Request for book review(s) -- RAH
Date: 4 Jul 85 02:47:30 GMT

I haven't read anything by Robert Heinlein in several years, but I
understand that, after a long illness, he has a couple of new books.
The last of his books that I read was "Time Enough for Love."

Pardon my ignorance, but ......

       Does he have anything new?
       Do YOU recommend it?
       Have there been any reviews on the net?
       If so, do you have a copy?

This is probably old material, so please reply by mail.

         Mike Mueller
uucp:    {decvax,harpo,ihnss,pur-ee,ucbvax,unc,zehntel}
         !teklabs!vice!mike
ARPA:    vice!mike.tek@Rand-Relay
CSnet:   vice!mike@tek
US Mail: Mike Mueller, Tektronix, Inc.
         Box 500  MS 59-323, Beaverton OR  97077
Phone:   (503)627-3187

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 85 17:42 PST
From: Gary Palmer <Gary-Palmer%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Another reason aliens might visit (or live on) Earth.

I enjoyed seeing the "reasons" why an alien race might visit Earth
and, for their own reasons, want to remove humans.  Now I wonder if
anyone else has ever read a delightful book called _Ballroom_of_the_
_Skies_ by John D. MacDonald.  Yes he is the one who wrote the
Travis McGee series.

This book is hard to find but one of most enjoyably light yet
thought provoking readings I have found in a long time.  It is
published by Fawcett Gold Medal Books and copyrighted 1952.

The blurb on the back cover asks the questions: "Have you ever
stopped to wonder why the world is eternally war-torn?  Why men of
good will, seeking only peace, are driven relentlessly to further
disaster?"

Well I won't spoil the story, but it does involve a very novel
reason why aliens would come to Earth.  I recommend this book to
anyone who can find it.  On the side, I also recommend his other
book _Wine_of_ _the_Dreamers.

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING ******
Ballroom of the Skies is about one man who notices some ranking
government officials seem "wrong".  On further investigation he
finds them being replaced by some sort of robot.  He is an
investigator, so he persues this and finds that aliens are on earth
walking around and just "being one of the guys".  They have a belt
with some amazing technology to help do things like mind
probing/sheilding and teleportation.  The hero, Branson, becomes
known to these aliens and starts to work for them only after long
hard attempts to destroy them.  He does it voluntarily after
learning that they aren't out to destroy the Earth, it's people, or
it's resources (a refreshing change).  The end of the book presents
the final reason why the aliens are controlling the ruling class of
Earth; they want to keep it primitive enough where it is always
engaged in wars because wars train generals.  The alien race is
peaceful and hence their generals are useless and the galactic
defense organization needs people who can wage and win wars...

There is alot of fun stuff in the book like the androids and
psionics and such.  I really can't do it justice, but now you have
an idea what it's about.

Gary Palmer--Los Angeles Ca.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 85 07:16:04 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: title request

Did James Schmitz ever write a sequel to _The_Witches_of_Karres_?
(Beyond the expansion of the original story to a novel, I mean.)

                               marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 2 Jul 85 13:38:53-EDT
From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Re: Story request - SF on controlling time

The short story name is "The Sliced-Crosswise, Only on Tuesday,
World", but I don't recall the author or even the where I read it
(it was a long time ago, back in high school or before). I believe
the man was a Tuesday person in love with a Wednesday person and
wants to change days. An interesting story with a twist to the
ending, which I won't reveal.

        --Vince

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Time control stories
Date: 4 Jul 85 00:46:03 GMT

Well, what about the ``farmers'' in the future in FROM HERE TO
ETERNITY?  (Come to think of it, didn't they come back in the last
few pages of CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE?  :-)

They pulled stunts like causing ``kettles'' to not be able to go
beyond the 100,000th century, and the work at the end that caused
the future to be changed (and, according to latest rumor, replaced
aliens with even stranger humans (i.e. Second Foundationers))?

Brandon Allbery,
Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: Re: SF on controlling Time
Date: 5 Jul 85 05:18:37 GMT

I'm surprised no one has mentioned _Bearing_an_Hourglass_, by Piers
Anthony, the 2nd book of the Incarnations series.  (or is Piers
Anthony not to be mentioned in this newsgroup? :-)

        Steven

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 14:28 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: A four dollar movie??????

You obviously don't live in a metropolitan area that has learned to
gouge people like they have here in the Bay.  Heck, four bucks is
matinee price!  (Athough in fairness, some places go down to two
bucks for matinees and there is even a local place that is two bucks
ALWAYS.  Nice to know that capitalism works somewhere, although the
nicer theatres charge more and no way will you get Dolby sound and
70mm at the Vine for $2.)

I would make an effort to bring back the days of 50 cent flicks, but
we'd have to watch Ronnie again, and heck, he ain't even worth it
now that he's on TV for free.  I guess we'll just have to suffer and
hope they keep making great flicks that deserve the money.

Like,

Back to the Future

What a great disguise for a plug, huh?

It's the best thing since screen editors and I feel that we who love
it have a responsibilty to show the movie producers what we like by
seeing it again and again and again.  This movie can handle it.  A
lot of things can be seen coming, if you know where to look.  Check
it out!

For the technos out there who try to figure out and/or poke holes in
the time travel theories that we read, please check out Larry
Niven's _The Theory and Practice of Time Travel_ in his book, _All
the Myriad Ways_.  He basically proves that it is impossible, at
least in the long run.  Time travel is a very unstable situation, as
evidenced by nearly all stories using it.  It is much more stable
not to have a time machine, which is what I suspect is the "real"
situation.  Alas and alack...

(There are a few things I would change...)

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry.
Date: 10 Jul 85 03:09:07 GMT

> Which ST articles were banned in Texas?

Sorry...I've been away from the net for a few weeks...I assume this
posting was to a side comment of mine about Star Trek episodes being
banned in Texas.

As I remember the article (I have no first hand experience of this)
several episodes were banned in Texas and "the Bible belt" because
of supposed inferences to Satanism. Episodes included were "catspaw"
and (the name of the title escapes me) the episode in which Kirk,
Spock, and a woman crewmember trade "bodies" with creatures in
glowing, white balls.

As I also stated once before, the Star Trek animateds were not
banned due to bad ratings (the rating were quite high), but, rather,
due to (as it was stated by the network) "script material that is
unsuited for the younger viewing audience." The straw that broke the
Enterprise's back was an episode called "The Magicks of Megas Tu,"
in which the Enterprise crew find out that not only was Lucifer not
a myth, but that he wasn't such a bad guy after all. This did not
sit too well with a lot of people. (There was also an animated
episode called "BEM", where a "godlike being" was portrayed as being
female. This didn't set too well with another group of people....)

Anyway, I hope this clears up any references I made...

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: utai!strausx@topaz.arpa (Paul Albert Strauss)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF
Date: 8 Jul 85 19:53:25 GMT

> There is one segment of a Dr Who episode that has been bothering
> me for some time.  Usually Dr Who has imaginitive (sp?) scripts
> and well thought stories.  The sf isn't hard core but when they
> show something it usually is correct, or good enough that I would
> allow them "poetic license".  Example: the episode Enlightment,
> dumb premise, a yacht race in space, but the explaination of the
> wind being the solar wind and the gravity of the planets providing
> the force to steer against the wind was quite good.  What gets me
> is Four to Doomsday, where the Doctor is stranded in space midway
> between another space craft and his Tardis.  He pulls a cricket
> ball out of his pocket and throws it at the space ship, when he
> catches it on the rebound he has the momentum to reach his Tardis.
> He should have also gotten some momentum from throwing the ball!!!
> If the writers had figured out the solar sailing business I would
> have thought they would have figured this out too.
> Mike Davis

Sounds to me as if throwing the ball toward the space craft (and
thus away from his Tardis) would have accelerated the Doctor TOWARD
his Tardis, as would the act of catching the ball.  Thus, (without
having seen this episode), I don't perceive a flaw.

Paul Strauss

------------------------------

From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: The passing of James Doohan
Date: 10 Jul 85 12:06:08 GMT

        I heard on the way in to work this morning that Jimmy
Doohan, known and loved by us as Commander Montgomery Scott, Chief
Engineering Officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise, passed away yesterday
due to a sudden, massive heart attack.  Rest In Peace Jimmy, we'll
miss ye.

Mike Stalnaker
UUCP:{decvax!decuac,cbosgd,seismo}!dolqci!mike
AT&T:202-376-6245
USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 85 1033-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #258
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 258

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony & Farmer & Lee & Zelazny &
                     End of the World Stories (2 msgs) &
                     Footfall,
             Films - Back to the Future,
             Miscellaneous - SF as Literature & Spoilers (2 msgs) &
                     Advanced Races Visiting Earth (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: magic!b2@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: Review of _Bearing_an_Hourglass_
Date: 9 Jul 85 17:59:03 GMT

Someone wondered if Piers Anthony was a taboo author in
net.sf-lovers.  Since he has been writing "light" fantasy recently
instead of "hard" sf, I suppose some might say a review of his
latest novel doesn't belong there.  Phooey on them.

A Short Review of "Bearing An Hourglass" by Piers Anthony

   I picked up BAH as soon as I saw it in the library.  It is the
2nd in a series of ... hmm, 5 or 6.  5, I think.  The main character
of each novel is an Incarnation, a mortal who personifies one of the
great forces of existence.  They include Death (the subject of the
first book in the series, "On a Pale Horse"), Time (this book's
emphasis), Fate, Nature, and War.  2 immortal Incarnations also
figure in the story, Good ( played by God, whom we never see or meet
), and Evil ( played by Satan/Lucifer/Beelzebub, whom we see quite a
bit of ).

     The basic plot of each book seems to go as follows: a more or
less ordinary mortal finds himself selected to become the next
personification of the Incarnation that best fits the book's title.
He (no women so far, Fate and Nature will come later) flounders
about trying to control and use the powers of his office, getting
help and cryptic advice from the other mortal Incarnations.  He
finds out Satan is trying to do something dastardly but is rather
ineffectual and Satan turns on his charm and makes you the reader a
bit tense.  The new Incarnation, however, learns a lot about his
powers and how they interact with the world (in which magic and
science are equally well developed) and where he fits into it all,
so he ends up confronting and battling the Devil, trying to foil his
evil plans.  Each book ends similarly, with the Devil either winning
or losing ( No sir, no spoilers here! ).

   I enjoyed OPH very much.  It had many interesting touches,
allusions, and puns.  Since the Incarnation in OPH was Death,
Anthony presented the reader with quite a few interesting questions
concerning mercy killing, babies going to Limbo, life extension at
all cost, death and war, etc.  I enjoyed BAH much less.  For one
thing, there wasn't the same sort of interesting moral questions to
delve into.  Anthony also spent a lot of time explaining how Time's
equipment worked, and shifting the new Time around.  I didn't find
this very entertaining.  There were some very interesting minor
characters in OPH.  I remember quite a bit about the details of the
plot of OPH.  Off hand, I can barely recall any minor characters in
BAH that weren't also in OPH.  I can't remember much about the plot
, even though I read it much more recently.  I guess the problem is
that Death makes a much more interesting and believable main
character than Time does.

   So, I was disappointed with BAH.  But I am going to to read the
next books.  I think BAH failed for me because Time, and discussions
about time arrows, living backwards, etc. just didn't hold my
interest.  The other Incarnations, however, might be presented
better.  Fate, Nature, and War all seem to have quite a bit of
potential.

   One last note.  At the end of each book, Anthony has an "Author's
Note".  He discusses his motivations and what he is currently doing
and where he got some of his ideas.  The Note after OPH was
especially interesting, since he described his own brush with Death.
One could clearly see the influence of his day-to-day life on his
writing.  In keeping with my statements above, I can't remember
anything about the Note in BAH.

b2
{backbone}ihnp4!bellcore!b2

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: The Oz canon and PJF's "Barnstormer in OZ"
Date: 9 Jul 85 03:14:52 GMT

jam@dcl-cs.UUCP (John A. Mariani) writes:
>What Farmer does is to look at a fictional place/situation as if it
>was *real*! This implies an adult, rational view of fantastic
>situations i.e.  how *does* the strawman *exist*? I can appreciate
>Baum's readers would be offended, as Hutch above ... but, I found
>the book quite entertaining.  I guess, as always, its up to you,
>but if you want to take a different view of a well-known place,
>this is worth a read.

Rather than let this degenerate into a series of opinionated flames,
I will admit that I have grown very tired of Farmer's more casual
work, but I do want to point out that Farmer doesn't look at a place
as if it were real.  He writes about it as if it were what HE thinks
of as real.  The trouble is, real doesn't have to be "adult" in that
sense.  For another instance of Farmer tampering with the work of
other authors, resulting in garbage, look at what he did to Tarzan
of the Apes.  Actually, I think he's done two such things, "Lord
Tyger" and this pseudo-history thing whose name I forget that ties
Doc Savage, Greystoke, and n-thousand other heroes together into the
same family tree (unnecessary!).

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 23:34:09 pdt
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Tanith Lee

"Don't Bite the Sun" and its sequel "Drinking Sapphire Wine" form
the best science fiction love story I've ever read.  Actually this
is also the only science fiction love story I've read.

Lee also has a gothic SF novel - "Lycanthia".  It is a sequel to the
farcical "Anna Medea" in her latest anthology, "The Gorgon".

My reaction to "The Gorgon" was mixed.  This collection has two of
Lee's best short stories (Meow & Sirriamnis), but it also has many
stories which I found rather slow and boring, and several with a bad
pun for a title.  Also, I had read Sirriamnis before, in "Unsilent
Night".

Of all Tanith Lee's books, my favorite is "To Kill the Dead", which
happens to be a ghost story.

One image that blows me away is the brash male hero/villain/thief at
the door with the roto-rooter/well rope/spell and the withdrawn
female protagonist behind the window shades hoping he will go away
soon.

Some of these books are very sexually emotive.  Lee also plays games
with my concept of "parent".

-s

------------------------------

From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar)
Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom - Roger Zelazny - Latest in the Amber
Subject: Series
Date: 8 Jul 85 14:13:44 GMT

The author of this article states that "Jack of Shadows" is a
prequel of sorts to the the Amber series and that JoS deals with
Shadow, Amber style. I beg to differ. JoS takes place on an Earth
with no rotation.  One side is constantly dark, and full of magic,
one side light, and full of science (our "normal" Earth.) Jack is
one of the few Darksiders who travels to the light side, and the
only one who's magic will work there. His magic is the ability to
use *any* form of shadow to hide him, no matter how small.
Additionally, anytime his name is spoken in shadow he will hear it,
no matter how far away. He lives in and with shadows, thus Jack of
shadows. No relation to Amberian Shadow at all.

Reasonably nice review, but lacking flair, could get the same sense
of the book from the dust cover. And please get your facts
straight...

David C. Kovar
USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber
ARPA:   davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk%amber@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 85 09:34:41 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: The End of Civilization as We Know It
From: Holbrook.OsbuSouth@Xerox.ARPA
To: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.Arpa

Two more of my favorites in the "end of the work" catagory:

'Earth Abides' by George Stewart.  This is a novel from (I believe)
the 50's.  The basic plotline involves a disease that does nasty
things to most of the people in the US.  This is one of the earlier
novels I've read in the sub-genre; well worth reading.

Another novel you might enjoy is a little farther out: 'A Canticle
for Leibowitz' by Walter M Miller Jr.  This 1959 novel is set in the
future long after a nuclear war.  It's a curious blend of religion
and how civilization rebuilds itself.  It follows a monastic order
that dedicates itself to preserving information from the long dead
civilization that occured before the war.  One of my all-time
favorite sf books.

        Paul

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1985 13:11:09-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: end of the world

A rather unusual end of the world story is "Breeds There A Man" by
Asimov.  I can't say much about it without giving away the plot, but
it postulates a somewhat different reason for the fall of
civilization(s).

------------------------------

From: denelcor!lmc@topaz.arpa (Lyle McElhaney)
Subject: SF Writers in Footfall
Date: 8 Jul 85 03:32:57 GMT

The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & Pournelle's
new book _Footfall_ are:

        Robert & Virginia Anson
        Sherry Atkinson
        Nat Reynolds
        Joe Ransom
        Wade and Jane Curtis
        Bob Burnham
        Carol North (added later)

Most obviously, The first are Robert (Anson) and Virginia Heinlein.
Nat Reynolds and Wade Curtis write together, and both live in Los
Angeles (if that's not enough of a clue, check out Curtis' response
to the aliens' conditional surrender: "Nuke them till they glow, and
then shoot then in the dark").

The remainder are not clear to me. The only other real clues are
that Atkinson is pacifistic (non-paranoid, as Anson puts it). Bob
Burnham has white hair and wears a gaudy vest, Ransom has a thick
black mustache. Carol North could be Andre Norton, except that she
is depicted as rather young.

Ah, well, its fun guessing.

Lyle McElhaney
...denelcor!lmc

------------------------------

From: ihlpm!cher@topaz.arpa (cherepov)
Subject: Re: Liking BACK TO THE FUTURE (while disliking GOONIES!)
Date: 9 Jul 85 13:15:54 GMT

I have a very hard time understanding how someone who disliked
Goonies would be charmed by BTTF.  But what do I know...

Some of BTTF drawbacks: almost every SF idea in it was recycled in
SF books 10000 times at least. Some of the more original ideas lack
credibility (hitting 88 miles an hour at exactly proper point, at
exactly right moment????!!!!!!!).  Also, HOW WOULD PLUTONIUM
GENERATE 1000000000000 watt?  Did they have nuclear explosion every
time?

Anyway, disregarding those things I would say that the film provides
same sort of entertainment as Goonies - at slightly lower quality.
It is oriented for slightly older kids, with character development
at definite Porky's level.

I liked both flicks as solid summer stuff and would recommend them.
For whatever it's worth...
                        Mike Cherepov

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 85 08:19 EDT
From: ------ Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: a comment on the sf as literature discussion

Listening to you all arguing among yourselves over what is good
literature, or how much more realistic the explosions in one movie
are over the explosions in another, or which author is more godlike
than another, or whether fantasy is as valid as hard science
fiction, or any of the other subjects you bicker over had me
wondering if any of you remember the wonder and the awe of realizing
that the things you read about in your treehouses and under your
covers by flashlight could actually be true and that one day you
could have a part in making them be true. I wonder how many of you
were as influenced in your lives by science fiction as I have been
in mine.

Podkayne of Mars told me that girls can have adventures too.  Andre
Norton's books said it was okay to be different, that my strength
lay within me, in my differences.  I, Robot fired my imagination so
that I ended up in my present career because of the dream of
development of robotics in my lifetime, like Susan.  Silent Running
made me aware of the importance of conservation. Le Guinn inspired
me to study Zen and to realize that western thought need not be the
world view. Dhalgren's bleak urbanity frightened me into an
awareness of modern despair. Tolkien taught me about personal
sacrifice and of the price of honor.  Starship Troopers told me of
the futility of war.  All of the books I have read, no matter how
good or bad, have given me something beyond what I had before I read
them.  That is all I ask from literature.

When I was a child, science fiction in all its forms, with all its
faults took me on wondrous journeys inside myself and outside of
time and space.  It does the same for me today, for all its faults
and crass commercialism.  Science fiction, fiction of any sort, is
the dream inside the soul, reaching out to share a vision of life as
it is, as it may be, as it could be.

Jessie @ NCSC

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1985 10:49:14-EDT
From: rachiele@NADC
Subject: spoilers

I really don't care if "spoiler" warnings are put on reviews.  I
make it a point never to read beyond the first line of any review,
they always give too much information.  I have big files of "dune"
and "2010" mail which I will read after those movies come to cable
(or I break down and buy a VCR!).

               Jim Rachiele
                    (rachiele@nadc.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1985 09:09-PDT
From: king@Kestrel.ARPA
Subject: should there be spoiler warnings?

>Someone else wrote "The big question when watching television is
>not *WHETHER* the hero will get out of their crisis.  We know that
>they will.  The big question is *HOW* the hero will get out of
>their crisis."  To me that is the enjoyable part of fiction, the
>"how".  If I am concerned about the "whether", I cannot enjoy it.
>
>Ken Moreau

I knew I stopped watching, for example, the Man from UNCLE, because
the title role always won.  I wrote a letter to the network saying
that I would like him to either lose or possibly even get killed
about 15-20% of the time, that I would mind him being resurrected
less than I minded the status quo.  I never got a reply.  <sigh>,
one of childhood's disappointments.

-dick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 16:03:37 CST
From: Doug Monk <bro@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re : advanced race wants and V

Of course, it should be born in mind that the advanced lizards in V
were sexual deviates.  I mean, after all, they insisted on wearing
their human disguises even in the privacy of their own bedrooms when
no humans were around.  Kind of like leather fetishism, I guess. :-)

The lizards must have come to Earth to find more and better party
novelties and sex slaves.  The water issue was probably just an
excuse they made up to tell the Emperor.  ( "Gosh, Admiral, we _had_
to stop in Tahiti to pick up some coconuts. We were running out..."
) :-)

Doug Monk ( bro@rice.arpa )

------------------------------

Date: Tue 9 Jul 85 14:02:48-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #251

> material wealth in our own solar system.  I doubt there is any
> substance, object or source of energy that would be worth the time
> and energy to make an interstellar voyage.  It would almost always
> be easier to find or build something ourselves, certainly easier

How about stroon (immortality drugs), as in Cordwainer Smith's
_Norstrilia_ and related works?  Unless we could synthesize them
here, of course.  Immortality is worth a lot to some people.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 85 1049-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #259
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 259

Today's Topics:

              Books - Cook & Lee (2 msgs) & Zelazny &
                      Time Control Stories (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Names in SF & Opinions &
                      Rereading

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rochester!stuart@topaz.arpa (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: The Fire in His Hands and other Glen Cook books
Date: 9 Jul 85 01:12:10 GMT

Moshe Eliovson writes:
>       I have just finished Glen Cook's The Fire in His Hands and
> the sequel, With Mercy Towards None.  The setting for these
> stories is post-Dynastic, in other words a great Empire was
> shattered over a typically trivial squabble.  The main culture is
> that of the fallen people, which is sort of a mix between mexican
> and arab nomads.  There is a ruling class, the Royalists, who are
> the remnenants of the royalty before "The Fall".

These books are sort of pre-quels to Cook's Dread Empire trilogy,
which may or may not be in print right now.  The Dread Empire books
are
  Shadow of All Night Rising
  October's Baby
  All Darkness Fled

(I may be off on the titles; they're at home and I'm not)

This trilogy hasn't gotten the kind of response I'd expect.  They're
books I make a point to re-read about once a year.  If you can find
them, I recommend you give them a try.

One of the things I like about the Dread Empire books is that Cook
does not feel obligated to explain all the important historical
events in detail.  There is an awful lot you have to figure out for
yourself or just accept that the characters understand the
references while you don't.  Some of these things you gradually
figure out from context.

I don't think The Fire in His Hands and With Mercy Towards None are
as good as the Dread Empire stuff, but they explain a LOT of the
recent history and personal experiences that are not explained in
D.E.  TFiHH and WMTN are not BAD, but I'd recommend D.E. strongly
and consider the more recently released books as average quality.
They are excellent good background material for D.E. .

Another thing I like about D.E. is that it covers a LOT of ground
chronologically speaking.  The significant first person action in
the books takes place over a good 10 to 20 years, and there is
"stage setting" of much more than that (30 years and references to
cataclysmic events even earlier (perhaps 100 years?))  If you like
the way Zelazny interleaved the "streams" of action/time in Lord of
Light, you should get a kick out of D.E.  If you didn't like it you
may not like D.E.  for the same reason.

Even with a couple of "pre-quels" out, there's still a lot of
related material Cook could crank out that would be quite
interesting.  Without spoiling anything, all five books are related
to just ONE carefully orchestrated catastrophe.  There are
references to several such incidents of meddling in the past.  The
motivation for the meddling and the meddler are one of the things
alluded to, but unexplained.  Even the meddler is unfamiliar with
perhaps the worst episode (Can you spell "Nawami Crusades"?)  The
allusions suggest to me a little the situation behind one of his
other books: The Swordbearer.

TFiHH and WMTN focus on the childhood and early adulthood of several
less personally powerful characters.  One of the characters D.E.
focuses on, Varthlokkur, was personally responsible for destroying
the fallen dynasty that forms the background for TFiHH and WMTN.
The similar period and especially magical training in Varthlokkur's
life would make an interesting piece of reading, since it's only
touched on in D.E. .

By the way, there was some recent discussion of Cook's Black Company
books and somebody wondered if Cook was familiar with the
(in?)famous White Company of our (real) history.  I am pretty sure
he is, because one of the groups in D.E. is a "White Company"
equipped with longbow and other appropriate weapons.

As far as I know, D.E., TFiHH and WMTN are not really related to
Swordbearer or to the Black Company books except in tone and some
(but not all) elements of style.  Cook writes what I think are
fairly realistic descriptions of combat, struggle and life in
general.  There are high points when everyone can relax and take it
easy raising kids on the farm and low points when people are
wheezing with pneumonia in a sleet storm with mud up to their knees
and bugs in the biscuits. The good guys don't wear white hats and
the sides change on the basis of expediency.  Favorite characters
get hurt and die; Scum get away.

His magic is pretty interesting, too.  Somewhat like Tolkien's
writings, magic is used fairly sparsely but potent when applied.
The use of magic implements is more common than in LotR, but it's
not objectionable.  There are a couple of "schools" of magical
technique which are referred to.  In general, developing a magical
effect seems a lot like developing an appropriate algorithm or data
structure.  I.e., there are known limits on what can be done with
existing techniques; it's not all engraved in ancient grimoires,
although there are well-known, named techniques to apply; the more
talented and experienced magicians come up with the more effective
approaches.

Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR)
Subject: Re: Tanith Lee
Date: 9 Jul 85 14:26:16 GMT

> "Don't Bite the Sun" and its sequel "Drinking Sapphire Wine" form
> the best science fiction love story I've ever read.  Actually this
> is also the only science fiction love story I've read.

I have THE SILVER METAL LOVER by Lee, which I consider the best SF
love story. ;-}

However, I tried to order DON'T BITE THE SUN and DRINKING SAPPHIRE
WINE a day or two ago, and my friendly local bookstore has never
heard of it!  Help!  Is it out of print?

> Lee also has a gothic SF novel - "Lycanthia".  It is a sequel to
> the farcical "Anna Medea" in her latest anthology, "The Gorgon".

Are you sure?  I read LYCANTHIA a while back, and I just bought THE
GORGON.  I don't remember any similarities between the novel and any
of the short stories.

Actually, a lot of her work is in the style of LYCANTHIA.  As I
think I've pointed out before, she is primarily a sword/sorcery
writer.  Try her first novel, BIRTHGRAVE.

                                        AMBAR
                        {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman)
Subject: Re: Tanith Lee
Date: 9 Jul 85 22:25:25 GMT

> From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
> "Don't Bite the Sun" and its sequel "Drinking Sapphire Wine" form
> the best science fiction love story I've ever read.  Actually this
> is also the only science fiction love story I've read.
>
> Some of these books are very sexually emotive.  Lee also plays
> games with my concept of "parent".
> -s

She does have some rather strange ideas, including a rather heavy-
handed insistence on male-female polarity.  And have you noticed her
brother-and-sister villains?  Maybe not -- but see "Day by Night"
and "The Silver Metal Lover".  The latter is not a bad love story at
all; and a friend once told me that the mother-daughter relationship
in it should tell me something ( --)).

More on sexuality in SF, or is that too dangerous for a relatively
mild-mannered newsgroup?
                                               dsf

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1985 08:13:08-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Jack of Shadows vs Amber

It's not so much that Shadowjack is like Corwin as all of Zelazny's
heroes fit a certain pattern: that is, they all have some unusual
ability that the reader doesn't know about, and only slowly learns
of.  In Amber, of course, he adds an additional twist in that Corwin
doesn't know of his powers either.  Anyway the use of shadow in JoS
is not at all like Shadow in Amber.  Amber's Shadow is really
parallel worlds, whereas JoS deals with absence of light.  Creatures
of Light and Darkness is a much closer analogy, especially Thoth's
power to "transport himself to anyplace he could imagine."

------------------------------

From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz.arpa (bayes)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 4 Jul 85 00:04:00 GMT

Along the lines of controlling time, and "pluterday', there is of
course R.A. Lafferty's classic, "Slow Tuesday Night", in which
objective time is not controlled, but subjective time is. A whole
life can be lived, with multiple careers completed, and fortunes won
and lost within the 8 hours of the aforesaid Tuesday night.

hpfcla!bayes

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman)
Subject: Re: Time control stories
Date: 9 Jul 85 22:37:25 GMT

> From: ncoast!bsa (Brandon Allbery)
> Well, what about the ``farmers'' in the future in FROM HERE TO
> ETERNITY?  (Come to think of it, didn't they come back in the last
> few pages of CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE?  :-)
>
> They pulled stunts like causing ``kettles'' to not be able to go
> beyond the 100,000th century, and the work at the end that caused
> the future to be changed (and, according to latest rumor, replaced
> aliens with even stranger humans (i.e. Second Foundationers))?

Yow!  I waited and waited, but no one cleared this up; was it
entirely a joke?  Anyway, I was going to mention this book, one of
the most control-oriented of all the time control stories: _The End
of Eternity_, by Asimov, which discusses the moral and long-term
(100,000 centuries) effects of editing reality.  The hero is an
Engineer for the people who have displaced themselves from the
timestream to a 'place' called Eternity, from which they manipulate
events for the utilitarian good.  Realities are simply deleted if
they work out badly, replaced by some alternative.  The hero's job,
which is actually implementing the grandfather-killing operations
(usually more subtle changes than that are all that are necessary),
is somewhat stigmatized because no one can quite deal with the fact
that they are eliminating the works and dreams and thoughts of
millions of people whenever they make one of these changes.  ("A
billion personalities changed -- just a Technician's yawn" goes one
Eternity catchphrase.)  Very interesting ideas, slightly waxen
characters, some less than believable situations -- typical very
good Asimov.
                                                     dsf

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 85 13:04 EDT
From: ------ Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: welsh-ish names

When I was a little girl writing stories I used to make up names for
my characters by banging on the typewriter like this ---
wsdfgbhnjmkpoijuhgv --- and throwing out every other letter so I'd
have a character named wdghjkojhv (pronounced, of course,
wedge-koohdge-hahv).  I would make up words like ouejw (oh-eej-wa, I
think) for that ytebdg on mcnhhf-mvhsx.  Sometimes I think that's
what some authors do, too.
                  (Bring to a boil)
My point: Dialect is well and good when it adds to the story, but
when you have to skip over the word even silently because it's
unpronounceable, a line must be drawn.  Authors shouldn't give into
the silliness I described above or, even worse, the follow the
growing number of authors basing their books on Celtic and
non-Western mythos by inserting 'welsh-ish', or 'japanese-ish' or
swahili-ish' sounding words as a hook.
                  (Reduce to simmer)
Jessie@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 08:36 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: opinions and assumptions

>Henry Vogel (henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa) writes:
>> One is forced to wonder how you can stand life? Last time I
>> checked, most people have no idea what will happen next in their
>> life or the lives of their friends. Admittedly, more people will
>> have a tendency to get blown away (or have some other awful thing
>> happen to them) in fiction than in real life, but awful things do
>> happen in real life. I'm not flaming you for your opinion, but it
>> does raise some interesting questions...
Ken Moreau replies
>That is one of the things about life that I cannot take: its
>uncertainty.  But it seems to me that you (and others) are coming
>back to the same point, which is "Life has (uncertainty, bad guys
>winning, good guys losing, everyone unhappy all the time, whatever
>else you care to put here), and you somehow survive life, so why
>don't you spend money on and actively enjoy the same things in
>books?".  Have you ever heard the term "escapism"?  I read to enjoy
>myself.  Insisting that a lot of bad things be put into a book
>*JUST BECAUSE SUCH THINGS HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE* eliminates one of
>the main attractions of fiction, namely that it is NOT like life.

Why do you assume that, just because I enjoy finding out what will
happen next in a book (as opposed to knowing exactly what will
happen), I know nothing about escapism and reading to enjoy myself?
You said you hated not knowing what was going to happen next, were
afraid that the characters you had developed an attatchment to were
going to die or have something equally horrible happen to them. All
I did was raise a rather obvious (to me) question concerning the
uncertainty of life... AND you answered my question by saying you
hated life's uncertainty! Fine. Based upon your posting, I asked a
question and made NO assumptions concerning you or your reading
habits. Based upon my posting, you *immediately* assumed certain
things concerning me and my reading habits. This is something that
has really bothered me concerning sf-lovers - the tendency to lump
someone who takes a contradictory opinion with those whose opinion
you despise thereby allowing you to ignore whatever they say. I
don't fit into any of the molds that various people on the net -
from Davis Tucker to Ken Moreau - have tried to put me in. Next
time, deal with what I write, not what you decide you want to assume
concerning me - most likely you're assumptions will be wrong.

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Rereading
Date: 8 Jul 85 01:05:18 GMT



>From: mae@aplvax.UUCP (Mary Anne Espenshade)
>...  I have one question for all of you on this -
>       HOW DO YOU HAVE TIME FOR THIS?????

I don't.  But I do it anyway...

It's just one of those things.  I start thinking about a scene or a
character from a book I really liked so I take it down from the
shelf and before I realize it I'm halfway through.  I've learned to
stop worrying when this happens; I no longer put myself on a
schedule that forces me through a pile of books at a rate I don't
like.  In fact I never read anything any more unless I'm in the mood
for it -- there's no sense in making a duty out of something you
enjoy.

There are added benefits to rereading, less important than having
fun, but still worth considering.  I often notice different things
on a multiple reading -- for example, I might be confused or puzzled
about some point in the plot of a book, and upon rereading it will
suddenly become clear.  Or there might be a clever touch or two that
didn't register on a first pass.  Some books seem to have the sort
of architecture that won't permit you to read them in a single
linear pass, whose events can't be analyzed unless you can see them
in a different order.  (Gene Wolfe's PEACE comes to mind...)
Sometimes the structure of a book, hidden before, is beautifully and
unexpectedly unveiled by a later rereading.

One day you'll happen to pull a book off the shelf and scan through
it for something and maybe you won't really be paying attention and
the pages are just flipping past but a word or a sentence will flash
in your eye and you'll stop and stare and exclaim, 'What!?  I don't
remember anything like that!' And then you'll be hooked on
rereading...

I don't have time to read netnews either,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jul 85 1125-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #260
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 260

Today's Topics:

     Books - Heinlein & Saberhagen & Sladek & Hardcover Books,
     Films - Cocoon & Explorers & Back to the Future (2 msgs) &
             Rocky Horror,
     Television - Blake's Seven & Star Trek,
     Miscellaneous - Discrepancies & Makel Barrett

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman)
Subject: Re: Query on latest Heinlein?
Date: 9 Jul 85 22:18:25 GMT

> From: <bang!root@Nosc>
> Has anyone yet read Heinlein's latest; "Cats - A Comedy of
> Manners"??

  Long standing question tangential to this: Does anyone know where
Heinlein picked up this " A Comedy of ... " subtitling?  It reminds
me of James Branch Cabell, but other authors may well enough have
used it, and I thought Niven was the only one who picked up on
Cabell.  Inside scoops, anyone?
                                                  dsf

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Berserker
Date: 8 Jul 85 16:24:15 GMT

   I sorta remember a request for Berserker information (i.e. names
and ordering of books) a while back, but I don't remember ever
seeing a response.  Having never read a Berserker book, but being
continually assaulted by references, I have decided to fill the void
in my life by doing some heavy-duty catching-up.  I would be
interested in getting an ordered list of Berserker books.  PLEASE
reply by mail; I promise to post a follow-up summary if and when I
get sufficient response.

joel "vo" plutchak
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 85 09:25:56 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Sladek's "Mechasm"
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Does ANYONE have for sale, or know where I can buy, a copy of John
Sladek's "Mechasm" / "The Reproductive System" ??  I've had no luck
finding it; I suppose it's out of print.
                                                --Peter Alfke
                                                alfke.pasa@xerox

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Hardcover book value guide, SF especially
Date: 9 Jul 85 21:26:24 GMT

A couple questions relating to the value (in terms of prices to
collectors) of hardcover books:

1) I've seen paperback value guides, but about all I've ever seen
covering hardbacks were reports of book auctions (stuff our local
library's bibliography department had). Since I am particularily
interested in the value of some SF hardbacks I have, and these cover
everything since printing was invented and seem to neglect modern
stuff, especially such looked-down-upon genres as SF, they aren't
very useful.  I believe some dealers publish catalogs, maybe in
tabloid form (I have one old catalog in such a format), which might
be useful as a price/value guide -- main problem is that they are
not comprehensive -- just has what the dealer happens to have in
stock at the moment.  Would anyone recommend any particular dealers'
catalogs for this purpose?

So, can anyone recommend sources of values for SF hardbacks?

2) Are there any SF Book Club editions that are
collectible/rare/etc.  and therefore higher-valued than
run-of-the-mill reading-copy prices? Or are any SFBC editions just
worth a couple dollars or so?

Thanks for any info!
Regards,
Will Martin
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 08:28 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Cocoon

Cocoon -- a Brief Review

Imagine a cross between Close Encounters (I swear they used CE3K's
puppets for the ETs, although with more interior lighting -- why do
aliens always glow, anyway?) and On Golden Pond, and you have this
movie.  It's a terrific movie if you like to watch old people: watch
old people swim, watch old people screw, watch old people break
dance.  There was not much else in this movie.  And the ending was
pure cop out.

Lisa

------------------------------

From: oliveb!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Explorers -- a pico review.
Date: 9 Jul 85 08:11:23 GMT

Just saw EXPLORERS (7/8/85)...

From Joe Dante (Gremlins) comes a cute, fun, science fantasy about a
three kids who are given the key to interplanetary travel.  After
some local mischief, the three (a street-kid, a sf-type, and a
student brainiac) head off to discover the answers to life, the
universe, and everything from an unseen all-knowing alien race.

What they expect is far from what they find.

I liked it, but I'm not sure it's worth the $5-$6 that most of the
bigger theaters normally ask.  I give it a 7 out of 10.  Good family
fare.  Looks like they are already thinking-up the script to
EXPLORERS II.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 85 18:38:05 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Throw another time travel theory into "Back to the Future".

This is a slight spoiler I guess.  a few digests back someone
mentioned the two time travel theories that seemed to be implied by
the movie.  I suggest a third one is also implied, the theory that
the time flow will somehow smooth everything out so that it looks
like no interference ever happened (either you get absorbed into
"standard history" or the universe bends probability way out of line
to keep things straight).  As evidence I first point to the scene
with the young Goldie sweepinng up in the coffeeshop and then to the
scene of Marvin Berry calling his brother (?) Charles.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Subject: Back to the future (SPOILER)
Date: 11 Jul 85 01:38:46 EDT (Thu)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

SPOILER

Well, not really, we all know he's gonna make it back, but if you
watch really carefully, just before Marty gets back to the future,
the future (his present) is different: he lives in a Moral-Majority
ruled state, with police helicopters shining search-lights on the
citizenry below (or maybe that's just the way California really
is...)  The triple-X theater advertises a revival meeting instead of
``Orgy, American Style'', the streets are littered, but the same old
wino is sleeping on the park bench.

Then he returns, and the theater marquee reverts to advertising an
X-rated movie, and all is normal (more or less).

Watch real carefully, it's over in just a few seconds.

God, I wonder how many things like this I MISSED...

(And who's Mary, anyway?)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 18:08:37-PDT
From: kovner%gwen.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Rocky Horror Audience Participation

I recently saw _The Rocky Horror Picture Show_ at the Hahvahd Squahe
theater (Cambridge Ma.), WITH the "Boston Rocky Horror Players" (? I
don't have the ad) performing simultaneously. There was, as
expected, audience participation, although not as spirited as it
might have been.

(Possible **SPOILERS** - although, to me, RHPS is not spoiled by
knowing the plot; possibly a requirement for the movie to have cult
status.)

I did not find the ap to interfere with the movie much at all. Only
the scenes with the criminologist were inaudible under the remarks
about his having "no f**ng neck." (I'm not sure that this is common
or not; I have heard of one case where some supporters were calling
out "Grey's OK" [The criminologist is played by Charles Grey, who
also played James Bond's "Q".])

In most cases, the ap occurred during repetitive moments, and the
film could be heard as well.

Also, the AP CHANGES. For example, as the camera panned across the
Transylvanian conventioneers watching Frankenfurter creating Rocky,
someone called out, "We are the world!"  This MUST be a recent
addition.

The unprepared person could, however, be upset over the shower of
rice, the toilet paper, and the squirt guns. To those, I sugest
sitting off to the side. The showoffs all seemed to be in the
center.

It is, I suppose also possible that someone could be upset over the
fact that many comments are obscene, but they would despise the
movie, too.

I will leave out the any review of the movie or the locals acting
out the movie (in full costume). I do feel that the audience
participation does not hurt the movie, and may improve it.  (Isn't
it fun calling Brad an a**hole?)

So,

Don't dream it --

See it!

Steve Kovner

UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner
ARPA:kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 16:27:48-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Blake's Seven

> From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
>        And now for something completely different..BLAKE'S SEVEN.
> I have been told that this hasn't been shown in the U.S. yet but
> the networks should come to their senses soon. It was great, some
> episodes were straight S.T. rip offs but otherwise the show was
> superb. The plots were ingenious with lots of twists but you would
> have to see it to understand. The last series (as usual) wasn't as
> good.
>        I think this deserves some discussion ,at least over here.

Judging by the lack of response to this posting, Blake's Seven
obviously hasn't been shown in the U.S. God knows why as it was by
far the best SF series the BBC ever made (That'll annoy the Dr Who
fans).

                     ******Micro Spoiler******

To take a bunch of criminals and turn them into galactic heroes took
some doing but Terry Nation managed it. Even if the stories had been
absolute garbage (which they weren't) the strength of character of
Villa "Show me a lock and I'll break it", Avon "Show me a computer
operating system and I'll break it", Blake "Show me the empire and
I'll break it" and Servalan "Show me Avon/Blake and I'll break them"
carried every show.

                        ******Spoiler******

The command conflict between Avon and Blake gradually built up
during the first series, with idealistic Blake all set to right all
the wrongs of the Universe but Avon merely wanting to do so if he
could settle old scores or become rich in the process. Timid Villa
was always on hand to inject a little humour to try and cool things
down or, more likely, would just hide !

The writing out of Blake made it easier for Avon to assume control
and although the second series managed to trundle on quite nicely
the third was becoming increasingly a little kids programme with
really only the interplay between Avon and Villa holding the whole
thing together. That was until...

                      ******Mega Spoiler******

People often complain that SF tv never ever ends and that the heroes
never die. Well here's one show that they can't complain about.

The carnage of the last episode in which the cast (including the
recently rediscovered Blake) are gunned down one by one with all the
blood and guts to go with it brought the most letters that the BBC
magazine (rather archaically called 'The Radio Times') had ever
received on any one programme. The end sees only Avon still
standing. His paranoia about the Universe having built up to such a
level throughout the last series that it actually culminates in him
killing Blake under the belief that Blake has betrayed them.

Avon stands astride his colleagues bodies, surrounded by armed enemy
guards, raises his gun and laughs. The screen fades and the sound of
gunfire from all corners his heard.

The END

I remember walking round like a goldfish and meeting other Blake
fans acting likewise:
  "The BBC can't do that"
  "But they did"

And so it ended for us in the UK but back a few timezones you have
it all to look forward to.

                        Alan Greig
                        Computer Centre
                        Dundee College Of Technology
                        Dundee
                        Scotland

------------------------------

Subject: Re: "Where no man has gone before"
Date: 10 Jul 85 22:22:58 PDT (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>>How likely is it that anyone would send so expensive a ship off
>>into nowhere for 5 years?

> Very.  As a general rule, exploration ships fall into two classes:
> unarmed and armed.  ....  Besides, human ships are always armed.
> Haven't you read any space opera?

What on earth has this response got to do with the question?  Unless
you equate weaponry with expense, it seems irrelevant.

The point of the question was that Enterprise was one of the 12 or
13 most advanced ships in the fleet, and as such served a number of
duties, of which exploration and experimentation (not necessarily
synonymous) were only two.  The Federation simply couldn't afford to
send so powerful and useful a ship off on its own, out of all
contact, for so long a period.  A year perhaps, maybe two, and even
then you'd see it seriously debated in Starfleet's upper offices.

Enterprise is certainly far more than a scout ship, and the question
involves much more than whether she should be armed -- which she is,
of course, heavily.

> As for naming, I believe most of the visible stars have been
> named.

Do you indeed?  (I assume you're talking about individual,
non-systematic names like Rigel, rather than Beta Orionis).
Assuming that by "visible" you mean what the unaided eye can see
(from Earth) on a night with good seeing and no extraneous light to
obstruct vision, then there are many more stars than have been
named.  Add a telescope, and you can just about forget the idea of
individual, non-systematic names for every star (how many? 100,000?
1,000,000?  10,000,000? more?).  Now widen your scope to every star
in the galaxy, not just the restricted set we can see.  Is the
degree of horror becoming clearer?

> Man, as a race, is arrogant.

Not nearly as much as so many apologists would have us think.
Besides, what relevance has this to naming the stars?

> As long as StarFleet sticks to names of the form
> Starname-Planet_#, they're on well established ground.

Naturally.  This is the purpose of doing things by convention,
systematically.  Can you imagine the chaos (and the suicides by
librarians) that would ensue if the individual names given by a
thousand civilisations to over 10,000,000,000 stars were *all* in
common use!!??  Besides, every time you discovered a new one, you'd
have to invent a new, *distinct* name for it.  Far better to have a
system that has a slot already allocated for it.  Spare the
librarians.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 20:27 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on)

>thus causality is violated.  But how many SF stories that have
>faster-than-light travel, consider these extremely important
>ramifications?

Well, STAR TREK did.  There were at least two episodes wherein the
Warp Drives (plus extraneous things like black holes) where used for
time travel.

>It is pretty silly that SF stories use faster-than-light travel,
>because almost any story that does use it could be easily rewritten
>to use parallel universes instead, without these problems.

See Larry Niven's _All_The_Myriad_Ways_ for why he (and I) hate the
standard parallel universe concept (cross-time).  If it really bugs
you, just go thru all ftl books and replace "spaceship" with
"parallel universe machine."

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 08:19 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Majel Barrett

Yes, she was in Genesis II/Planet Earth, too.  (I think in both) as
a minor character.  I believe she was a communications type --
mostly you just heard her voice.

I don't think she's such a bad actress.  And give Gene R credit --
he's never given her a very LARGE part in his productions,
especially not since he married her.

Lisa
Star Trek Welcommittee

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 85 2127-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #261
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 261

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust & Heuer & Laumer & Wilson &
                     A Story Request & Foreign SF &
                     Time Control Stories,
             Music - SF in Music,
             Miscellaneous - FTL Travel (2 msgs) & Spoilers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Rereading Brust (& Sequels)
Date: 1 Jul 85 17:43:04 GMT

> SKZB, any chance of eventually getting (if not another 15 books to
> complete the cycle) a prequel showing Vlad meeting Morollan and a
> sequel/prequel wrapping up Vlad's knowledge of his previous life?
> Pretty please.

Thanks.  If I don't get bored with the books, or start feeling that
I have nothing more to say through them (probably the same thing) I
will probably do one called EASTERNER that will contain Vlad's first
meeting with Morrolan, etc.  I'm not sure about the later stuff.

                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: Hardcover book value guide, SF especially
Date: 10 Jul 85 20:19:33 GMT

A specific question, if anyone out there has some sort of
value-guide to hardbacks, or dealers' catalogs which list this one:

I recall reading this book when I was very young, getting it from
the local library, and being impressed with it. I recently came
across a mint-condition (practically) copy of it, and I would think
it would be somewhat rare. It is:

MEN OF OTHER PLANETS by Kenneth Heuer, published by Pellegrini &
Cudahy, New York, 1951.

It is a delightful book, full of fascinating woodcut-style
illustrations, depicting various forms of intelligent lifeforms
designed to live under the conditions then envisaged (1940's
vintage scientific thought) to exist on other planets in the Solar
System, plus some rather wild speculation as to forests on the dark
side of the moon, creatures living in the Sun, etc.

Does anyone else recall reading this book back in the early 50's? It
must have had quite an impact, for I remembered it (vaguely) ever
since, and I recognized the title and book instantly when I saw it
in a pile of books for sale.

If anyone can find any reference to this book having some
collectible value, I'd appreciate their sending or posting any info
they can find.

Thanks much!
Will Martin

USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed 10 Jul 85 12:49:03-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Lafayette O'Leary (Controlling Time)

> From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa
> Let's not forget Keith Laumer's Lafayette O'Leary stories.  I
> think the first was called _The Time Bender_.  I found them very
> enjoyable.

The four O'Leary books are /The Time Bender/, /The World Shuffler/,
/The Shape Shifter/ [may not be exact title] and the latest one is
/The Galaxy Builder/.

> (I haven't yet dared read the latest in the series, given the
> unrelieved badness of Laumer's recent work - what has happened to
> this guy?  (Laumer, not O'Leary))

You're not missing anything.  While the first three are reasonably
good, the fourth one is absolutely incomprehensible.
(*ANTI-SPOILER*) I managed to make it through with the delusion that
perhaps Laumer really had a plot (or at least an interesting finale)
in the works, but I was wrong.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 85 10:40:53 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Comments on Colin Wilson

I suppose I'm one of the "avid fans" of Colin Wilson's works that
Mark Leeper mentioned.  While I like his work, I don't think he's
the greatest thing since indoor plumbing or whatever.  He has his
flaws: he's opinionated, sexist, elitist (or, at least, he comes
across that way in his books).  However, he's also very intelligent.
"Philosopher" is as good a term as any.

So, a few corrections from someone who (thinks he) knows better:

Wilson and August Derleth weren't friends until AFTER Wilson wrote
THE MIND PARASITES.  Mark was right about the "Outsider"/OUTSIDER
connection.  Wilson wrote a book (THE STRENGTH TO DREAM: LITERATURE
AND THE IMAGINATION), in one chapter of which he took Lovecraft to
task for HPL's own literary failings.  Derleth read this and then
asked Wilson if he thought he could do a better job with the Cthulhu
Mythos.  Wilson responded with THE MIND PARASITES, which Derleth's
Arkham House published.

Wilson's literary and philosophical concerns have been, ever since
THE OUTSIDER, his 1st book, was published in 1955, those aspects of
human existence that set apart some people from the mainstream of
human society.  There's a theme that should be familiar to SF-LOVERS
everywhere.  Wilson concentrates on topics that the mass of society
finds "lurid" or "sensational", most notably, sex, violence, and
magic.  His non-fiction and fiction alike have been attempts to
explain why those topics appeal to some and not to others.  His THE
OCCULT is generally considered to be an important work about the
nature of magic and magicians (i.e., sorcerers).  He considers
himself "a novelist of ideas".

Of the three works Mark mentioned, I would agree that THE SPACE
VAMPIRES is the weakest.  If the title (and that of MP) is "lurid",
well, that's part of what he's talking about, isn't it?  I was very
surprised to learn someone had tried to turn this into a film.  As
Mark said, the book's strong point is its ideas, not its plot.

BTW, when was Kirlian photography discredited?  On what grounds?

Mark, I'd be interested to know what 48 books came ahead of MIND
PARASITES in your local SF group's discussion, and why.  I consider
the book to be one of the most important (and enjoyable) I've ever
read; I usually reread it every few years -- doesn't take more than
an evening or two of concentrated reading.  I originally picked it
up because of my interest in Lovecraft.  While he plays
fast-and-loose with the Cthulhu Mythos, he certainly uses it in
interesting ways.  And, Mark, if you like stories where magic is
revealed to be unexplained science, you should look up "The Return
of the Lloigor" in TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS.  Again, it plays
fast-and-loose, but Derleth thought it good enough to include in
that collection (even if it does "reinterpret" one of his own Mythos
additions, Lloigor), and it is in some sense a forerunner of MIND
PARASITES.  (While I also enjoyed PHILOSOPHER'S STONE, it can't be
considered a true Mythos story -- it plays TOO fast-and-loose.)

I cannot recommend Wilson to many (those "specialized tastes", I
guess).  Certainly, those readers who prefer outright escapism or
books sans self- critical protagonists won't like him.  But if you
like sex, violence, magic, AND intelligent philosophy, give him a
try.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 09-Jul-1985 1721
From: mcculley%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Bruce McCulley)
Subject: UFO (or "The Personal Disasters of Cmdr. Straker")

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
> "...But there were still a lot of strange things: why the women on
> moon base wore lavender hair (though they looked normal enough on
> earth); ..."

from looking around at some of today's fashions, lavender hair
*DOES* look normal enough on earth (at least in some situations).

> "The earth side of things was done moderately well.  Low, sleek
> cars, with gull-wing doors.  The doors opened just quickly enough
> so that you couldn't really say "nobody would ever use something
> like that"...

why would you say such a thing?  there are some classic gull-wing
sports cars (I'd love to have a concours Mercedes 300SLR!) around,
people who use them seem to think they make sense.

> "...I recall one <...episode...> where Col. Foster crashed on the
> moon, and was injured, with his spacesuit damaged.  He was found
> by an alien who, instead of killing him, assisted him back toward
> moon base, several days' journey, with constant repairs needed to
> Foster's suit, and the constant fear between the two temporary
> allies who otherwise would have been deadly enemies.  It was
> powerful. "

this description reminds me of an extraordinarily powerful story I
read (at a fairly young and impressionable age) about a strikingly
similar plot.  I can recall neither title nor author, although I
have a faint recollection that it might have been by Damon Knight
(or perhaps Harlan Ellison, it was a library book by a "name" author
that was not one of my staples).  To the best of my recollection, it
was a juvenile story (although perhaps not, I was a juvenile when I
read it) about a young teenage girl stranded in some situation alone
on the moon, encountering an alien (first contact?) and a temporary
alliance based on mutual need in the face of fear.  The story line
involved a struggle to get back to some sort of base camp, an
attempt to strand the alien that had to be reversed for a subsequent
need, and the protoganist finally lying stricken by a venomous bite
listening to the alien key the code calling her family from orbit to
help her.  Can anybody identify this story from the information
given?  I'd like to see if my initial impression of the story's
strength holds up on rereading it.

thanks -
Bruce McCulley
DEC SW Development

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA ((the Shadow))
Subject: Foreign (to me) SF
Date: 10 Jul 85 12:59:26 GMT

I am interested in acquiring some sf that is rare or non-existent in
this country.  I am looking for German books as well as English,
although my reading ability is still rather limited in that
language.  I might also be interested in some French works.

There are three types of information I am looking for:

        1)      titles & authors of good books

        2)      publishers and/or bookstores with mail-order
                services

        3)      people who would be willing to buy books
                and mail them to me if sent the proper postage

I would especially appreciate some help from those in Europe, but
wouldn't turn down a pointer from this side of the pond.

PS -    please MAIL responses and "me too"s ...
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,unc}!brl-bmd!jeffh
ARPA:   <brl-bmd!jeffh@seismo.ARPA>
USnail: 508 Wheel Rd.
        Bel Air, MD  21014

------------------------------

From: gary@think.ARPA (Gary Sabot)
Subject: Re: Time control stories
Date: 10 Jul 85 16:21:23 GMT

Did anyone notice that the girl from planet Gaiea (spelling?) in
Foundation's Edge seems suspiciously like the girl who went back in
time with the engineer in The End of Eternity-- is she a robot who
changed history because of the First Law?  Is Asimov really going to
tie everything he ever wrote together in the next foundation book?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 16:52:06-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Science Fiction in Music

I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen
many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find
surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF
content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF
writing.  I could give a few examples of both. How about for
example:

Genesis: Watcher of the Skies

Hawkwind: Sonic Attack (even written by Michael Moorcock)

David Bowie: Major Tom

Pink Floyd: Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun
            (Did this influence Douglas Adams when he wrote of
             Disaster Area? "Ford, did you know that robot can hum
                             like Pink Floyd ?")
Rush: 2112

Plus lots of other tracks by these or other groups.

What does everyone else think ? There seems no reason to me why
words and music are less valid as Sci-Fi than words and paper or
words and acting.
                        Alan Greig
                        Computer Centre
                        Dundee College of Technology
                        Dundee
                        Scotland
Janet:  Alan%DCT@DDXA
Arpa:   Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 85 09:22:47 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl and so on)
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Doug Alan writes:
>The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty
>assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect that
>a faster-than-drive would have on the world that is described in
>the story.  According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light
>travel is exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there
>is no difference.

Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel
is just plain impossible.  All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms turn
imaginary...

Any story in which ftl works is tacitly assuming that something new
has superceded Relativity in the same manner as Relativity
superceded Newtonian mechanics.  That, or the author just doesn't
care about all the physical ramifications; he/she just needs ftl to
tell the story.  (Either approach is equally valid in my book.)

                                        --Peter Alfke
                                          alfke.pasa@xerox

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 85 09:37:09 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: ftl discrepancies
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Joel Upchurch writes:
>most 'FTL' drives in SF don't literally assume you can go faster
>than light. They use 'warp drives' through 'Hyperspace', which is
>usually defined to be an alternate universe of some sort which has
>a one-to-one mapping onto our universe, but is much smaller. There
>are many variations on this theme, of course. So there is no
>violation of Relativity.

There IS violation of Relativity.  Relativity prohibits any transfer
of information at speeds greater than that of light.  It doesn't
matter how the information got from one place to another, just the
distance covered per time taken.  Upsetting, isn't it?

                                        --Peter Alfke
                                          alfke.pasa@xerox

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 16:28:45 EDT
From: Melinda Berkman <mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA>
Subject: spoiler warnings

Despite all the chit-chat about spoilers and spoiler warnings
lately, people are still not using them .  Reading a book when you
know what is going to happen is not quite the same as when you do,
and it should be clear by now that some of us would at least like
the option of experiencing the former as well as the latter.  I just
finished reading the fourth book in the Amber series last night, and
was so anxious to read the fifth, Courts of Chaos, that I was even
willing to spend real money and try to buy it new rather than wait
until it turned up in my local used book store.  This is a series
that particularly depends on surprise and not knowing who is doing
what to whom, with the protaganist and reader discovering a little
more of the Truth in each novel.  Then someone summarized the entire
book in a review of Trumps of Doom, with putting a spoiler warning
on the review or that particular paragraph.  It is not easy to turn
your eyes away from your terminal in the middle of a sentence; most
people read more than a word at a time!  It would be going too far
to say that Courts of Chaos is entirely ruined for me, but I NEVER
would have guessed from the ending of Hand of Oberon that things
were going to end up the way they evidently do.  So, people,

   PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

     USE **********  SPOILER WARNINGS ********** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

   PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Melinda Berkman  (mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 85 2226-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #262
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 262

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brin & Coulson & Saberhagen,
                Films - Back to the Future (3 msgs) & Star Wars,
                Miscellaneous - Spaceweek & Discrepancies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Jul 85 11:42:40-PDT
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Brin's super creatures

                  ******  Spoiler warning  ******
This talks about  David Brin's STARTIDE RISING and POSTMAN.

I finally read STARTIDE RISING by David Brin on a recent plane trip.
Then I was given an autographed galley of his forthcoming book,
POSTMAN, at the American Booksellers convention, which I quickly
read.  While I enjoyed both books, I felt that each had a
significant flaw.  Finally I realized that the two books had the
same flaw, in that Brin is presenting unviable super creatures.  In
both books, the new, improved creatures just did not make sense or
could survive as a new species.

In Startide Rising, the Dolphins are uplifted by increasing their
intelligence.  But, they can only function with the technology
supplied by humans.  The flaw with the Dolphins is that uplift
should have included converting flippers to hands.

The Dolphins are basically helpless without humans (or chimps)
around, or without the human provided technology.  A group of
abandoned humans can rebuild their technology (ie Swiss Family
Robinson or Mysterious Island), but abandoned Dolphins are just
wise-cracking swimming mammals.  The hide and seek shoot-em-up on
the seaweed mats had to be a human, a Dolphin couldn't have done it.
However, the same scene would have worked with a handed Dolphin.

Note that the humans are somewhat servants of the Dolphins, in that
humans must assist the Dolphins with work that are beyond Dolphin
capablities.  In the other races, the older parent race lays back
and lets the client race(s) do all of the dirty work.

In Postman, Brin presents a group of US soldiers that were augmented
to be super deluxe fighters, sort of like the six million dollar man
(CYBORG).  Here the augmentation is engineered into their bodies, it
is not genetic.  So the group of augmented soldiers cannot increase
without complex medical facilities and lots of scientists,
engineers, and technicans.  Brin presents a feudal society growing
up in the areas conquered by the augmented soldiers.  However,
feudal society is based on the family, and the sons inheriting the
spoils that the father has won.  Unfortunately, the sons are not
going to be augmented, and are going to be real disappointments to
their fathers.

The main motivation that Brin represents in the augmented and their
followers is to conquer, destroy, and kill the remaining pockets of
civilization, especially the one town that has enough equipment,
people, and knowledge that they might be able to build more
augmented soldiers.

Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 17:05 EDT
From: Mark F. Rand  <TIGQC356%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Juanita Coulson(??)

Hello everyone (especially Jayambee!)...

Has anyone heard of two books (I think) written by Juanita Coulson(?
not sure of spelling)?? They are "Hiero's Journey" and "A Forsaken
Hiero".  I read both of 'em a while back and was wondering if there
was another of the Hiero books comming in the future or if it's
around but just not in my area or bookstore....

Anybody out there know anything about the above???

Oh yea, from what I remember of the story, it's supposed to take
place in the future on Earth a long time after a nuclear war.. There
are mutants roaming around(larger,more intelligent,nastier versions
of animals and people of today ) and there are widely dispersed
communities of "normal" humans. These separate communities seem to
keep some form of contact between each other thru their local
monastaries. The monks are a combination of priest,soldier(
Intelligence Corps),scientist(trying to figure out the old
machines)and witch doctor(Extra sense percept., healer).

(*I don't think the above was a spoiler*).

See ya
Mark Rand  (TIGQC356@CUNYVM    &  COMPUSERVE 75615,1712 )

------------------------------

To: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: Berserker
Date: 12 Jul 85 11:04:53 PDT (Fri)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

Most of the Berserker stuff is in short story form, and while the
short stories in a given book may (or may not) be ordered, the
relation between them and the stories in another book are not always
clear.  There may be a strict ordering: I like the stories but have
not studied them carefully.  In any event reading in strict order of
fictional time is not necessarily advisable, since you may need
familiarity with Berserkers to understand some of Man's first
encounters with them.  The following commented lists describe the
order, such as it is, which I would advise reading them.

READ THESE IN THE ORDER LISTED:

Berserker (1967): short stories
        The original.  It covers much history in a reasonably
coherant fashon.

{ The Ultimate Enemy (1979), The Berserker Wars (1981) }: short
  stories
        Read these two collections in either order, it doesn't
        matter.

Berserker Base (1985): short stories tied together
        This strongly hints at a possible end to the wars.
        Saberhagan (Berserker's creator and author of all the
        others) asked several well-known SF authors to each write a
        Berserker story, and then he wrote (fictional) forwards and
        afterwards which tie them all together into a single
        FANTASTIC story.  But you need the background of the
        previous stories to appreciate it.

READ THESE (or don't) IN ANY ORDER
AND AT ANY TIME AFTER READING BERSERKER (1967):

Berserker Man (1979): novel
        This hints at another possible end to the wars.  My memory
        is weak on this one, since it did not impress me as a
        Berserker story.  Nice enough tale, but I seem to recall it
        centering on humans without much Berserker interaction.  The
        plot could have been associated with ANY war, not
        specifically Berserkers.  Worth reading, but don't expect to
        learn much about Berserkers.

Brother Assassin (1969): three related novellas
        All concern one planet's time-travelling battles with
        Berserkers.  Again, nice tales and well worth reading, but
        not very Berserker-specific (there ARE Berserkers in these
        tales, but they are in the background almost all of the
        time).

Berserker's Planet (1975): novel
        If you liked the way the Illiad describes battles ("and X
        swung at Y and missed and then Y swung at X and missed and
        then X cunningly replied with a low stab, but was thwarted,
        and then Y tripped over a stone but regained balance in
        time............"), then you'll love this.  Otherwise it's
        crap; the only one I actively disliked, mostly out of sheer
        boredom and reaction to the pointlessness.  A damaged
        Berserker sets itself up as a God of War on a planet of
        primitives as a way to coerce them into killing each other,
        and you literally get 200 pages of pitiful description of
        swordplay; nothing enlightening about Berserkers or Man's
        battles against them.  Even the false God is only mentioned
        a couple of times in the third person (by the primitives as
        they kill each other in its name).

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 09:36:27-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Rev. Jim (Taxi)

Speaking of all the things "Rev.Jim" has been in lately...I recently 
saw a VERY old western on t.v. and he was the bad guy. (I have no idea
what the name of the movie was) Does anyone else know of any early
stuff he has done?  Pre-Taxi and pre-Star Trek. "in my opinion" - He
plays an excellent "bad" guy, klingon or gunslinger.  He also plays an
excellent "crazy". Pretty versatile, I'd say!!! (As you can tell, he's
one of my favorites)

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 85 16:23:16 EDT
From: Daniel.Zigmond@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Back to The Future (SPOILER)

                           ***SPOILER***

The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't that
it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use them
wrong.  Marty changed both universes.  The changes to the universe
he returned to were obvious: his parents had dfferent personalities,
he had a new truck, etc...  However, he also changed the universe he
left.  He invented rock and roll (essentially).  While he is playing
Jonny B Goode at the dance (in 1955), the guitarist with the broken
arm (whose name was something Berry) calls his brother "Chuck" to
tell him about this great new style of music that Marty is playing.
This means that universe 1 (where Marty started) shouldn't have had
any rock music in it because Marty wasn't around in 1955 to let
Chuck know about it.  Of course, it did because otherwise Marty
wouldn't have known the song (or have been in a rock band).

        Dan (djz@cmu-cs-spice)

------------------------------

From: uwvax!pfeiffer@topaz.arpa (Phil Pfeiffer)
Subject: Re: Back to the future (SPOILER)
Date: 11 Jul 85 19:08:20 GMT

> SPOILER
>
> Well, not really, we all know he's gonna make it back, but if you
> watch really carefully, just before Marty gets back to the future,
> the future (his present) is different: he lives in a
> Moral-Majority ruled state, with police helicopters shining
> search-lights on the citizenry below (or maybe that's just the way
> California really is...)  The triple-X theater advertises a
> revival meeting instead of ``Orgy, American Style'', the streets
> are littered, but the same old wino is sleeping on the park bench.
>
> Then he returns, and the theater marquee reverts to advertising an
> X-rated movie, and all is normal (more or less).

  wrong wrong wrong.  There are TWO theatres, one in his direction
of travel, and one on the right side of the square as you are facing
the clock.
  sorry.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 11 Jul 85 11:46:18-MDT
From: Peter Badovinatz <BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: Star Wars and the Good Guys

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes )
>> SECTION 2:  My most despised scene in STAR WARS III
>>
>>    You know the one I'm talking about: Vader Wimps Out.  They
>> should have never taken off his mask ...

>How *should* "Return of the Jedi" have ended?
>
>Well-   that insipid farm-boy should have given in to Darth's
>        superior abilities.
>
>        the rebels should have been decimated (in the original,
>        Latin sense), and forced to begin anew (thus paving the way
>        for a third movie trilogy -- and further triumphs for Darth
>        Vader).
>
>        most important -- the ewoks should have been thoroughly
>        eradicated ... just on general principles.

Good points.  Had Lucas listened to the above advice I would have
been forced to attend the movie more than the two obligatory
viewings I was present at.  Ah, to see the Ewoks as blades of grass
and Darth as the lawn mower...

But noooo...  Darth casts away his principles, his life, everything
he worked for.  The Ewoks are still scampering about like the
un-demented teddy bears they are.  (I could have handled the teddy
bears if they had been a bit more mercenary, like Han Solo before
the Millenium Falcon did its Silver imitation.)

But enough.  Just thinking of the Ewoks gives me saccharin
poisoning.  Think I'll go re-read a Covenant book.  I need a bit of
disgust and loathing right now.

Peter R Badovinatz          ARPA:  badovinatz@utah-20
Univ of Utah CS Dept        UUCP:  ...!utah-cs!badovin

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1985 1249-PDT (Thursday)
From: Craig E. Ward <cew@isi-hobgoblin.ARPA>
To: Space@mit-mc, Aviation@mit-mc, Physics@sri-unix
Subject: Spaceweek 1985

                     Spaceweek-1985 Activivites

              A Series of Events in Celebration of the
         16th Anniversary of the First Manned Moon Landing

In honor of Spaceweek 1985, OASIS/L5 will be sponsoring the
following events.  The attendance at some of the events is limited
so make your reservations now.

July 16, 18, 24, Satellite Business Systems, Downtown Los Angles

                A Tour of Satellite Business Systems

On each of these days, from 2:00 to 5:00pm, we will be having a tour
of the largest satellite data processing facility on the west coast.
Each tour is limited to 30 people.  For reservations, call F. Wiley
Livermont at (818)700-8382.

July 20, Rockwell International DEI Room, Downey

                  A Tour of the Rockwell DEI Room

See a full scale mock-up of the Space Shuttle and the Space Station
Crew Module.  There will also be a short presentation by Howard
Gluckman of Rockwell International.  Events start at 10:00am.  Enter
the Rockwell International Plant at Gate 53 near the corner of
Bellflower, Stewart and Grey Blvds.

July 20, TRW Forum, Redondo Beach

             Next Human Destination: The Moons of Mars

Well known futurist and former astronaut Dr. Brian O'Leary will
speak on the possible missions to the moons of Mars.  The TRW forum
is located at 1 Space Park in Redondo Beach.  Enter TRW at Compton
Blvd. just east of Aviation Blvd.  The talk starts at 3:00pm.

July 21, California Museum of Science and Industry, Los Angles

        Aerospace Museum Tour and IMAX Theater Presentation

Starting at 11:00am, we will have a tour of the Aerospace Museum.
At 2:30pm, there will be an IMAX presentation of the film "The Dream
is Alive", which includes IMAX space shuttle footage.  Tickets will
have to be purchased for this event.  For reservations, call F.
Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382.

July 21, Griffith Observatory, Los Angles

            The California Universe -- 50th Anniversary

Meet at the Griffith Observatory at about 7:00pm for the evening
observatory show.  Tickets will have to be purchased at the
Observatory.

Week of July 22, TRW, Redondo Beach

          A Tour of the Satellite High Bay Facility at TRW

We are also currently trying to arrange a tour sometime during the
week of July 22 for a small group of people.  If you would like to
go on the tour, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382.

For more information about the above events, call (213)374-1381.

OASIS/L5
P.O. Box 1231
Redondo Beach, CA 90278

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 19:30 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on)
To: Doug Alan <nessus@MIT-EDDIE.ARPA>

>> Well, STAR TREK did.  There were at least two episodes wherein
>> the Warp Drives (plus extraneous things like black holes) where
>> used for time travel.

>Yeah, but those weren't normal occurances.  They only happened when
>the warp drive went on the fritz.

Not true!  In the first episode (where they pick up the pilot who
thinks they're a UFO) it's an accident, but in the second one (with
Gary Seven) they go back on purpose to the 1970(?)s to see how Earth
managed to survive the arms race.  I think there was another one
where they go back in time a couple of days to avoid disaster, but
I'm not sure.

>Yeah, well I do, but I'd wish they'd do it themselves.  It's
>distracting!

In one case they did.  H. Beam Piper's _Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_
was originally a space travel story.  For unexplained reasons, (in
the story, that is.  It seems likely Piper had an explaination in
mind) the hero (proto-Kalvin) was able to have children with a
native of the planet, and (appartently) John Campbell didn't believe
it, and hence wouldn't buy it.  So Piper changed it to paratime
(which is different from (read better than) cross-time).  (source:
one of the Piper anthologies has the original story and commentary.
I think is was _Empire_ but it might have been _Federation_.)

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 85 2240-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #263
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 13 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 263

Today's Topics:

                Books - Chalker & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                        Neglected Requests & A Request,
                Films - Charles Gray & Red Sonja,
                Music - SF in Music,
                Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Some Comments & 
                        James Doohan (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 85 23:29:45 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Jack Chalker

> I think that you're both missing the essential device (and
> repetition) of Chalker's stories.  Yes, he always has shape
> changing (and more to the point, *sex* changing); yes, a strong
> female character is generally transformed into a sexual slave (in
> Web_of_the_Chozen ?...I can't remember).  The main device which
> links nearly all of his novels, though, is that every book has
> what could be called "magic", and each one has it "explainable" by
> some device or other (and in no case does he resort to a
> "sufficiently advanced technology").
>
> This bothered me at first, but lately I've begun to enjoy seeing
> the new ways that he can rationalize magic.  And even though he
> does use so many recurrent themes, he manages to work them in
> differently enough in each new book/series that he is consistently
> fun to read.

I also quite enjoy reading Chalker's rationalizations of (his
particular brand of) magic, and the different ways he deals with
this same plot, but it *is* after all the same plot!  He deals with
it in quite different ways, but it's wearing a tad thin.  In the
WELL OF SOULS books, it was very innovative; in AND THE DEVIL WILL
DRAG YOU UNDER, it was still acceptable; but by the time you get to
SOUL RIDER, there's nothing that can be added.  It is all familiar
territory.  Though I quite like this theory of the universe, it's
starting to get boring.  It would not be so bad if it was the *same*
theory in all of his books (as if they were all occurring in the
same universe), but each new book changes the theory enough that it
seems as if Chalker is trying to put one over on us (Look!  A new
theory!).

I'm not saying that the stories are bad because they reuse ideas; I
very much liked almost all of them (except DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW
and DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE. Yecch).  I just think that Chalker is
a good enough writer to come up with something new.  The sex-change
plots certainly have a long way to go before getting passe, but I
think this "primal energy" theory of magic is exhausted.

                                        --Jamie
                                        jwz@cmu-cs-spice

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 18:26:18 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom

Who can tell us all why the dustcover for Trumps of Doom has been
withdrawn, and why Michael Whelan is seeking monetary retribution?
(Hint: see the cover for Brother Assassin...)

Yours in Snideness, and with thanks to The Other Change of Hobbit,

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar)
Subject: Appology to Zelazny Reviewer
Date: 11 Jul 85 22:48:44 GMT

I recently posted a correction to a Zelazny review, stating that
Jack of Shadows did not relate to the Amber Shadows in any way.
Unfortunately, I also attacked the reviewer's style in the same
followup. I publically appologize for putting my personal remarks in
the public eye. It was rude on my part, at the very least.

David C. Kovar
USNET:      {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber
ARPA:   davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk%amber@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 00:49:50 EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: neglected short story requests and other stories
To: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA

Paula, you have struck a chord.  Because of the many^2 responses to
story requests, (which ususally appear immediately) normally I
ignore them totally.  But you are right: the best way to promote
good fiction, SF or otherwise, is to *promote* it.  So, here are a
few of my favorite works of ''short SF.''

Isaac Asimov, ''Breeds There a Man''
-- hard science

Isaac Asimov, ''Nightfall''
-- hard science.  IA's first and probably still best

Frederic Brown, ''The Little Lamb''
-- included because FB is an SF author.  insanely good

Harlan Ellison, '' I Have No Mouth, But I Must Scream'' (*)
-- flamed about in SF-L massively already

Harlan Ellison, '' 'Repent, Harlequin' said the Ticktockman''
-- rebellion and social comment

Ursula K. LeGuin, ''Semley's Necklace''
-- hard science with fantasy elements

Cordwainer Smith, ''The Ballad of Lost C'Mell''
-- CS is hard to pin down.  call this mythic fiction

Theodore Sturgeon, ''The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff''
-- social comment in TS's wonderful style

James Tiptree, Jr., (as Racoona Sheldon) ''The Screwfly Solution'' (*)
-- hard science with a dollop of feminism.  JT =  Alice B. Sheldon

John Varley, ''The Barbie Murders'' (*)
-- hard science, but NOT space opera

Jack Vance, ''The Moon Moth''
-- people and society, mystery solved, charcter improvement

Vernor Vinge, ''Bookworm, Run!''
-- hard science

Roger Zelazny, ''But For a Breath I Tarry''
-- perhaps the best-ever story of love and self-discovery in SF

(*)  possibly offensive to sensitive souls

Of course, I can't possibly list *all* good short SF stories, just
the ones which come to mind.  Literature jocks take note: there is
*plenty* of good SF!  You just have to look for it.  (But we knew
that anyway.)

-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 09:36:27-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Rev. Jim (Taxi)

Also, I previous asked if anyone knew of a title of a story I couldn't
remember (memory is the first to go, you know, uh, where was I?), but
I never saw an answer. Did I find a stumper for the Net'rs? I doubt
it. Maybe it fell through the cracks. Anyway here it is again.

One average normal day our hero comes home from an out-of-town trip to
find his home and wife in a "frozen" state, cobwebs on everything. On
his entrance into the house everything "comes to life". After
encountering this phenomenon a few times, he begins to question his
sanity. It turns out that he is the only person in the world and
everything is being controlled for someone elses amusement.

Gaylene

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 85  06:21 EDT (Fri)
From: Mijjil <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Charles Gray, Rocky Horror Picture Show

Charles Gray was *NOT* "Q" in the James Bond films.  He did,
however, portray Bond's nemesis, Blofeld, in "Diamonds Are Forever".

Trivia: What is Blofeld's FULL name?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 12:00:00 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Ronald Lacey (Red Sonja)

The poor guy always gets to die horribly in searing pain, doesn't
he?  I think he was far more effective in Raiders of the Lost Ark as
the Nazi torturer, Todt.  There is something terribly evil about a
grown man with a soft baby face -- makes one's flesh creep.

Has he shown up anywhere else?  Is he always a villain?

By the way, does anyone know if the "Grandmaster" is the sensei
who's been teaching them all in reality?  I know he appeared in the
first Conan movie, but I didn't recognise him behind all that hair
and un-swordsmanlike trapping.

Finally, a note on the swordplay itself.  Much less satisfying than
Conan I.  These folks haven't been doing their kata!  Nonetheless,
we're still seeing the same linking of forms from iai-do (usually a
solitary art, involving many different draws, cuts, ways of getting
the blood off your sword -- shaking or whatever -- and resheathings.
All of these parts are important, but in the Conan movies many of
the blood-shakes appear to have become cuts, and resheathings become
merely confusing unexplained pauses).

Y'all might be amused to learn that the ad in Variety (I think),
reprinted in the Society for Creative Anachronism's quarterly,
"Tournaments Illuminated" read something like "Wanted: Actress with
knowledge of swordplay, acrobatics and horsemanship, no models or
female body-builders need apply".  I wonder how many SCA fighters
are among the priestesses, if any (judging from their styles, I'd
say few.  I've never seen more clumsy, ineffective sword-waving).

The best part was the fight in the "Chamber of Lights".  "Yahoo!"  I
said, "It's Robin and the Sherriff slicing candles again!" :-)

En garde!
Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 11 Jul 85 00:34:05 GMT

> From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
> I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen
> many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find
> surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF
> content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF
> writing.  I could give a few examples of both. How about for
> example :
>
> Pink Floyd: Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun
>             (Did this influence Douglas Adams when he wrote of
>              Disaster Area? "Ford, did you know that robot can hum
>                              like Pink Floyd ?")

I think we can conclude that the Floyd was in the back of Adams's
mind when he wrote the passage about the Special Effects used in
Hotblack Desiato's shows.  I would have offered the same quote from
the radio show in evidence, had it not already been done...

I was always fascinated and delighted by a song by Queen, whose
title I can no longer remember -- either "Volunteers" or "Forty
Nine."  The music was reminiscent of traditional sea songs or
chantys, and the lyrics told the story of the crew of an FTL
starship ... though if you didn't pay attention, it seemed to be
just what it sounded like -- a song about the sea.  I can't quote
from the lyrics, because it's been years since I heard the song, but
the crucial verse recounted how, though the protagonist has aged
only slightly, the earth had grown "old and gray."  It always
tickled me when I recognized allusions to books I was fond of (or
just genres I enjoyed) in music.  Like Led Zep's use of Mordor and
Gollum in "Ramble On," and the Ringwraiths in "The Battle of
Evermore."

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept,
Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712
barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 85 13:45:32 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: "The Doomsday Machine"
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Larry Baker writes:
>I find "The Doomsday Machine" (of STAR TREK fame) much more similar
>to the Berserker series than the Battlestar Ponderosa fiasco, and I
>suspect that the writer who wrote that story got the idea from
>Saberhagen, although the idea is sufficently different to preclude
>any legal action.

Actually, as I remember the "Doomsday Machine" episode was written
by none other than Fred Saberhagen, and the machine certainly seemed
to be a real honest-to-god Berserker.  This implies unpleasant
events in the near future for the Star Trek universe ... maybe this
is what ST5 will be about? :-)
                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 85 08:15 EDT
From: Jim Moore <moore@ncsc>
Subject: Milne's reply to "WNMHGB"

The Enterprise (and the other ships in her class), as well as the
various tugs, scouts, dreadnaughts, etc. were designed to be in deep
space for long periods of time. How practical is it to expect a
spaceship to return to a home location after each trip when you
consider the sheer size of the 'space' it's supposed to be
exploring? The explorers would spend more time in transit to home
port and outbound than in actual exploration.

And the starships weren't exactly cut off from Starfleet. Subspace
radio, although (relatively) slow, still provided some
communication, and supposedly some authority and direction, from the
big shots at U.F.of P.
                                      Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 08:51 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Sense of touch...

I want to vouch for Chris Anderson when he talks of Covenant's loss
of the sense of touch.  I was in a car crash recently and took a lot
of facial damage.  As a result there are areas on my face that may
never get their feeling back, and it is a real constant annoyance.
Even with this example I cannot imagine having to experience it over
my entire body.  We are talking some serious problems here.  I find
Tom to be very good a handling the situation.  Many lepers do just
sit and rot because they cannot take the mental anguish from both
the world and the people in it.  At least Tom learns that no matter
what, no matter how bad it gets, you *have* to fight back.

I learned that in junior high, but that's another story.

By the way, I am trying to talk my girlfriend into trying to
decimate me, but not in the original latin meaning.  Sounds like
fun. Thanks for the idea, Jeff.  I agree about the Ewoks though.
Kill 'em all. I cite the "too cute" ordinance.

Oh, and three cheers for Saul Jaffe for managing this horrible
semi-coherent mess into something readable.  Bravo to a job well
done, and, like the lady said, "Don't stop!"

Jon Pugh

PS  Short stories:

For some funny and thoughtfull stuff check out Harlan Ellison's (not
him again) I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. There is a lot of
humourous SF in there, along with the classic, A Boy and His Dog.

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!acsgjjp@topaz.arpa (Jim Poltrone)
Subject: Re: The passing of James Doohan
Date: 12 Jul 85 17:29:23 GMT

>       I heard on the way in to work this morning that Jimmy
> Doohan, known and loved by us as Commander Montgomery Scott, Chief
> Engineering Officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise, passed away
> yesterday due to a sudden, massive heart attack.  Rest In Peace
> Jimmy, we'll miss ye.
> Mike Stalnaker

Well, after scouring the last few day's worth of newspapers, and
watching the 11 o'clock news last night, I haven't heard *anything*
regarding James Doohan.  There wasn't even anything on Entertainment
Tonight (which is probably taped well in advance).  But if it wasn't
true, why would it be posted?

Now is a perfect time to say that the characters in Star Trek are
not immortal.  As the saying goes, "All good things have to come to
an end".  Spock was only brought back because "the people demanded
it".  The Enterprise can't last forever.  And someday, Captain Kirk
will have to face death himself -- for the final time.

If he truly is dead, he will certainly be missed.  And what is going
to happen to the rest of Star Trek IV?

(No, I haven't been living under a rock the past week.  And the
Buffalo media is not as bad as it might seem to be.)

Jim Poltrone
uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!acsgjjp
ARPAnet, CSnet: acsgjjp%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY
BITNET:  ACSGJJP@SUNYABVA

------------------------------

From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker)
Subject: Re: RETRACTION!!!!!! The passing of James Doohan
Date: 11 Jul 85 10:38:40 GMT

        I don't know whether I was half asleep, and misunderstood
what the radio was saying, or if the station I was listening to made
an error, or if I hit a major Space-Time Anamoly, or what, but I was
100% wrong about this. (Thank Goodness).  I apolgize most humbly to
all you netters who saw this.  Ye Gads, I wish I knew what
happened.....sigh....

Mike Stalnaker
UUCP:{decvax!decuac,cbosgd,seismo}!dolqci!mike
AT&T:202-376-6245
USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 85 2259-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #264
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 13 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 264

Today's Topics:

              Book - Cherryh & DeChancie & A Request,
              Films - Day of the Dead & Charles Gray,
              Music - SF in Music (2 msgs),
              Television - Time Travel Special,
              Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 20:16 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re:  C. J. Cherryh's CHANUR'S VENTURE

CHANUR'S VENTURE has been in print since mid-spring, but was
retitled THE KIF STRIKE BACK.  The hardcover was published by
Phantasia Press.  Those waiting for paperback will have to wait,
probably until winter, for the DAW paperback.

                                Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Fri 12 Jul 85 02:47:22-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: DeChancie's STARRIGGER series

        Among the Things that Make an SF Book a Good Read...

"Sense of wonder" is fine, but I'm not sure that's a good
description for a certain quality some SF has, of evoking a sense of
reality for the utterly unreal.  For instance, instead of just
saying the air on an alien planet is breathable--

  "There is nothing like the first breath of alien atmosphere, no
  matter how near to Terran normal it is.  The weird odors are most
  unsettling.  Strange trace gases never meant for human olfactory
  systems tiptoe across your nasal membranes in spiked shoes.  At
  best, you gag and choke and cough.  At worst, you swoon and wake
  up with an assist mask slapped over your face, if you're lucky.
  But the atmosphere of Goliath wasn't all that bad.  It carried a
  whiff of iodine on a stench of decayed fruit, a strange
  combination to say the least, but the fruity smell masked the
  medicinal one enough to make it bearable.  There wasn't a fruit
  tree in sight.  On the bad side, there was a trace of a
  nose-tickling element, an irritant of some kind that kitchy-kooed
  the sinuses maddeningly close to the sneeze-point without getting
  them over the hump."

That's from John DeChancie's STARRIGGER, an "interplanetary
trucking" story, believe it or not!  (Well, there's an
interplanetary trucking filk song, so why not a novel?)

I enjoyed it thoroughly.  But be warned-- like PRIDE OF CHANUR, even
though it stands alone okay, it has a sequel RED LIMIT FREEWAY which
ends just as much a cliff-hanger as CHANUR'S VENTURE.  If you're the
strong-willed type, get 'em both but hold off on reading RED LIMIT
FREEWAY until the next (final?) book in the series comes out.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 85 17:10 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #254

>>On the subject of controlling time...

Alan Taylor's note jogged my memory of a book I read somewhere back
in the dim recesses of my youth: it was called WHERE WERE YOU LAST
PLUTERDAY? and it still remains one of the funniest thihngs I have
ever laid eyes on.

The plot involved a young (and very poor) journalist who meets a
young (and very rich) heiress.  The results are predictable-- they
fall madely in love and agreee to meet at the statue in the park.
"When?"  he says, as she is driving off.

"Next Pluterday," she replies, "at noon."  (Or something like that.
It was a long time ago.)  Our hero is so enthralled at the prospect
of meeting her again that, for the moment, he fails to realize that
he is as in the dark about Pluterdays as we are.  Soon, though, the
situation is brought home to him and goes about investigating.

To make a long story short, Pluterday is an extra day that falls
between Saturday and Sunday of every week.  Most people never see
it, however, because we waste so much time during the week that w
have to spend all day Pluterday just catching up-- thus we never
notice it.  (So, it's not long on science....)

The extremely rich, however, not only can save massive amounts of
time by being able to have all the modern conveniences, but they can
also afford to buy into a very exclusive club (the details are fuzzy
in my memory) which allows them to accumulate credit for time saved
and "spend" it all on Pluterday.

The rest of the story involves our hero's attempts to get into
Pluterday and involve such fun as going back in time, writing the
Bible (under an assumed name, of course,) and then coming back to
the future being filthy rich (It is the all time best-seller, after
all.)

I'm afraid I don't remember the author, although I do remember that
he was European and that the boohad been translated.  Maybe even
eastern European, but that's a long shot.  Another, even longer,
shot says that the book was published by dell sometime pre-1975.  I
found it at a garage sale, but somewhere or other I got the idea
that it was a fairly rare book, so good luck.  I'd be interested in
hearing from anybody who has read it.

Finally, just to feed the fires, I've just about finished Stephen
Donaldson's DAUGHTER OF REGALS & OTHER TALES, and I find it almost
superb.  I liked but didn't love the Covenant stuff (I take that
back, I loathed the second set,) but these are good.  The writing
style is several exponential powers better than the Unbeliever stuff
(I only had to gt my Dictionary out once!  for the whole book!!!)
The stories are well crafted with a few surprise endings that are in
the BEST Donaldson style.  I loved the story "Unworthy of the
Angel."  A lot of this is more fantasy than SF, but there are
exceptions.  I had given up on Donaldson before WHITE GOLD WIELDER,
but this renews my hopes.

Chris Miller
Miller.pasa
Chris Miller:XSIS-AI:Xerox

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Re: Day of the Dead review (not really)
Date: 10 Jul 85 18:36:33 GMT

That movie sounds pretty bad -- but I wanted to quickly add that
there will be Yet Another Dead Movie coming out soon that looks like
a pretty funny satire of the whole Dead scene.

It's called _Return_of_the_Dead_ and (I think) includes Dan Obannon
among the people who put it together.

You see, there are these punks in this graveyard... and well, uhm I
guess I should not go into any detail right now.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 13:20 pst
From: askme%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Helicopters...

Someone asked if they really do have police helicopters cruising the
streets in California.  The answer is yes.  It seems to keep the
criminals on their toes if nothing else.  Actually they work best
during foot chases.  Try to double back on the cops chasing you with
a searchlight sweeping the area.  It will probably help breed
sneakier crooks.  Evolution in action?

As for the narrator in Rocky Horror, Charles Grey, he was in some
Bond flicks, but he didn't play Q, he was the dreaded Ernst Stravos
Blofeld!  Granted, I can't spell, but I know a face.  Anybody want
to produce the complete Blofeld list?  I know Donald Pleasance was
in You Only Live Twice and Grey was in Diamonds Are Forever.
Blofeld wasn't in Casino Royale (probably a good thing).  Telly
Savalas was in George Lazenbee's attempt, which was the first book,
On Her Majesty's Secret Service.  But, gosh, I can't remember the
rest.  Anyone really into it?

And I too noticed From Here to Eternity, but was too busy laughing
to formulate a response.  It reminds me of a radio contest I heard
where they play clips from an old movie and you have to come up with
the name.  Someone came up with From Here to Internity.  The DJ was
trying hard not to laugh as he asked the guy if he was sure for the
third time.  Ah well, we all make mistakes.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: ecrcvax!snoopy@topaz.arpa (Sebastian Schmitz)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 11 Jul 85 16:38:08 GMT

How about:

Virtually all the tracks on ELO's album "Time"

Alan Parsons Project: I, Robot (from Album of the same name)

Queen : '39 (from the Album "A Night at the Opera")

Queen: Machines World (From the Album "The Works")

Eurythmics: 1984 Soundtrack

Queen: Flash Gordon Soundtrack

Kraftwerk: Computerworld

Tangerine Dream: Alpha Centauri

Just to name a few. I'm sure that if I look through my records more
carefully then I'll find more. Incidentally the Tangerine Dream
Album mentioned is instrumental, but listen to the track called
"Sunrise in the Third System" and you'll know what I mean.

  Love,
  Sebastian (Snoopy)
\!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 11 Jul 85 21:56:18 GMT

Alan%DCT.AC.UK%DUNDEE.AC.UK@ucl-cs.ARPA writes:
>I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen
>many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find
>surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF
>content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF
>writing.

Hear, hear!!

And let us not forget the Moody Blues: "To Our Children's Children's
Children" is a fine album, and it seems to me to have been the
result of a deliberate attempt to write score and libretto for Olaf
Stapledon's deep (and slightly ponderous) novel, _The_Star_Maker_.
(Has anyone heard for sure?)  The opening cut from the album is also
an outstanding attempt to capture on media the auditory sensations
of a major launch vehicle ascent (Saturn V or Proton).

>What does everyone else think ? There seems no reason to me why
>words and music are less valid as Sci-Fi than words and paper or
>words and acting.

I concur.  And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such might
be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 85 19:01:48 PDT (Friday)
From: Morrill.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Time Travel TV Special

I didn't find "Time Travel: Fact, Fiction and Fantasy" very
interesting, it was obviously just a promo for the movie "Back to
the Future".  The most informative, interesting and entertaining
show I've ever seen on Time was an episode of Nova entitled "It's
About Time", hosted by Dudley Moore.  It presented some very
interesting ideas as to what time is, what it's made of, where it
came from and where it's going.  If anybody in the Palo Alto area is
interested, I've got a copy of it on VHS.

Anybody know of some more high quality time shows?

        D. Toby

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for
Date: 8 Jul 85 07:50:00 GMT

The Idea that an advanced alien race would come to Earth (or anyhere
else for that matter) is not as preposterous as it sounds.  Isaac
Asimov wrote a book in which the plot traced an expedition from Mars
to Jupiter to acquire water.  This was no small task for the
Martians.  For the "Visitors" it would be quite a bit easier.  It
has also been suggested that Jupiter would make a nice fuel stop for
interstellar ships leaving or entering the Solar system.  Why
Jupiter?  It would be easier to go and get hydrogen/ water from
Jupiter than to lift it off Earth.  Now, extrapolate a little.  The
"Visitors" did not EXPECT that Earth would present any difficulties.
Compared to Visitor technology, Earth is still in the dark ages (by
about fifty years.)  Thus, it would be easier to come to Earth and
lift the water out of the gravity well than to synthesize mass
quantities of it from Jupiter or another gas giant.  First, the
Oxygen would have to be shipped to Jupiter.  Then it would be
combined with the refined hydrogen raked of the atmosphere of
Jupiter.  Then we ship the whole mess out of Jupiter's gravity well,
all several hundred G's of it, and send it to 'The Home Planet.'  It
would be easier just to lift it out of Earth's gravity well on
gravitic jets, which the Visitors use regularly.  Especially if we
assume that the natives are not going to put up any resistance.
After they did, the series turned into a grudge match between Dianna
and the Resistance.  An intelligent commander would have cut her
losses and left, either to get reinforcements and do the invasion
right, or to go on to greener pastures.

Then there is the matter of food.  The Visitors ... Look, they were
supposed to come from Rigel.  From now on, they're Rigellians...
The Rigellians are a carnivorous race.  Not omnivorous like Man, but
Carnivorous.  Vegetable matter is not digested well and they avoid
it because it tastes lousy.  Similar to the arguments against
soyburgers.  Now, since the Rigellians 1) expect Earthies to have
brains on the order of cattle, 2) like red meat for dinner, 3) have
a fresh water problem, 4) assume Earth technology to be just hitting
the Bronze Age, and 5) have a relatively unlimited power (gravitic)
drive, why won't they come to an alien planet for food and drink?

This brings us to the moral issues.  First, who are we to assume
that slavery is a natural stage in a race's development.  Relatively
few species on Earth have social hierarchies similar to slavery, and
very few have any past the mother feeding her young stage.  Most of
the non-mammals ignore they're young, and only pay attention to
other members of their kind when the other member poses a direct
threat.  So we should not assume that slavery will even occur to
them.  Two, the Rigellians have conquered other planets before.
They may have slaves coming out they're ears on the home planet!
Three, the Rigellian society is spartan and militaristic in nature.
The thought of having a personal servant could be an insult to their
honor.  Four, living, intelligent beings use up food, air, space
(both in shipment and while working,) and WATER.  Now, I think we
can discount using un-intelligent animals as slaves.  Having slaves
would take up valuble natural resources which are already in short
supply.

The one thing that is surprising about "V" is that the rulers on
Rigel left Dianna in charge for so long, and that the NBC producers
left it on the air so long.  With good scripts, the show could have
been excellent.  As it is, it should be put out of our misery.

                                        orstcs/richardt

------------------------------

From: ur-laser!tomk@topaz.arpa (Tom Kessler)
Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for
Date: 12 Jul 85 14:31:15 GMT

You don't get the water Hydrogen etc. to make water from Jupiter.
You get it from the moons where there is very little gravity to
overcome.

Tom Kessler {allegra |seismo }!rochester!ur-laser!tomk
Laboratory for Laser Energetics
250 East River Road
Rochester, New York 14623
Phone: (716)- 275 - 5101

------------------------------

From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa (Ephrayim J. Naiman)
Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for
Date: 12 Jul 85 13:43:23 GMT

> Isaac Asimov wrote a book in which the plot traced an expedition
> from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water.

Wasn't that Saturn ?

Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
(201) 576-6259
Paths:[ihnp4,allegra,mtuxo,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 85 16:48:47 EDT
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: advanced races visiting earth

While I agree with most of the arguments supporting the silliness of
a V-like visit to Earth, one argument needs to be stepped on.  The
disadvantage of fighting the locals would be negligible for a race
crossing between stars.  A couple of you seem to have gotten caught
believing a man on horseback would live 20 seconds while being
chased by an armed attack craft.  No advanced race could possibly
have such dismal weapons.  Nor would they manage an invasion so
pitifully.  Diana really must be in charge for political reasons.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jul 85 2323-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #265
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 14 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 265

Today's Topics:

                         Books - Sturgeon,
                         Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors &
                                 Problems with SF Critics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 12 Jul 85 03:52:57-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BILLW@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: sf love stories...

I can't stand it anymore.  Ted Sturgeon wrote any number of SF love
stories.  the following come immediatly to mind:

   Case and the Dreamer
   When you love enough, When you care enough.
   A touch of strange.
   If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister.
   the touch of your hand

etc, etc.  try any Sturgeon short story collection.

billW

------------------------------

From: leadsv!sas@topaz.arpa (Scott Stewart)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get...
Date: 9 Jul 85 17:58:37 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
>>1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the
>>resources to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one
>>option open to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go
>>whatever distance it takes to get it!
>
> The problem is that there are *much* easier ways to get water.  As
> an obvious example, there is considerably more water in the rings
> and moons of Saturn than on the surface of the Earth.  It's
> frozen, but that hardly matters.
>
> Even more directly, water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, which
> are two of the most common elements in the universe.  It takes a
> lot less energy to make water than it does to cross interstellar
> space.

But we must remember that the Visitors wanted more than Earth's
water. They were running out of food as well. Now maybe Earth was
the nearest planet they could find that had food they liked. It's
quite possible that we could have given them plenty of rats and bugs
to take home and raise for food, but maybe we humans were a special
delicacy for the very rich.

Also, I remember Martin explaining to Donovan once that the
Visitor's leader was similar to our Hitler. Neither needed a war for
their society to survive, but wanted the glory of conquest.
Therefore the Leader didn't care about a war, or the cost of a war.
He was power hungry.

I too liked the first mini-series. I believe an article I read once
said that _V_ was based on the Nazi of World War II. I saw this in
the first mini-series clearly, the use of a group of people who
could be a threat to the regime as scapegoats who must be destroyed,
martial law, and the Youth Core to indoctrinate the youth of the
society. And the use of lizards as the Visitors I think was used for
shock. What creatures do we think of as most repulsive, (Reptiles)
and what better way to make the need to defeat the Visitors more
expedient, yet least likely for the population to believe.  The
first mini-series ended to soon for me, since nothing had been
resolved.

The second mini-series I still liked. We finally win over the evil
lizards.  Even though the end was hokey. Why couldn't Elizabeth just
be a super intellectual. It seems completely feasible that she could
have stopped the ship from self destructing by breaking the computer
security system and deactivating the bomb, instead of the fancy
hokus-pokus trick. After all, she had been on the mother ship for
some time learning the computer, and was supposed to be very bright.
The ending was dumb!

Now comes the series. Why? The Visitors had been defeated. Why
shouldn't they just crawl home. The series was doomed from the
start.  How long can you keep an audience interested in a war when
neither side gains any real headway. And how can a bunch of
Earthlings with only automatic weapons stand up to all those lasers.
In the mini-series, the resistance at least got hold of the
Visitor's weapons and used them. But suddenly, they can't use lasers
anymore.  And what about the Visitor's voices?

The one thing I liked about the whole thing in general was that you
were never sure which of our heros might live through any particular
battle.  We get to know each member of the resistance, and then one
or two get knocked of. Most shows, our heros never die, no matter
what the odds are.  Of course, our main heros always pull through,
but even some of the secondary heros, and not the peripheral heros
died, like Martin, Elias, and Elizabeth's Grandfather.

Our heros weren't always one dimensional and some grew and changed.
Relationships grew, were tested, and some blossomed. Even the bad
guys had varying motives, from vegeance, to loyalty, to personal
power. The bad guys spent about as much time fighting themseleves as
they did us. And was Kyle's Dad a good or bad guy? Kyle and his
father hated each other, yet loved each other, and we were able to
see both facets of their relationship.

I glad they found a good explanation for not being able to use the
Red Dust anymore. Then we would really have a boring war. But the
Earth's Eco-system, which helped to stop the lizards the first time,
was their hope the second.  Another use of the dust and Mankind
might kill himself.

I personally liked some assets of the entire series (mini-series and
weakly), mostly the character's, except Elizabeth's hokey powers.
But I feel the main flaw with the weakly series was the plotlines.
Each weak we saw our conflict build for about 50 minutes and then
get solved in five, leaving five for final resolve (counting
commercial time) or else the conflict built up in about 15 minutes
and the rest wast spent solving it. There just wasn't enough balance
to conflict/resolve ratio. Too many hokey escapes and solutions. We
were just to outclassed and had to rely on some mysterious magic
mumbo-jumbo from Elizabeth, another alien friend, or lucky break. I
think too much was going on in the story for a one hour TV show to
handle. That's why the mini-series were more succesful. I hope the
books would also be more succesful, but I've only read the first one
so I can't say.
                                                Scott A. Stewart
                                                LMSC

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS TODAY
Date: 27 Jun 85 17:46:30 GMT

          THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS TODAY
                          By Steven Brust

        "Lift your heads out of the sf ghetto, people..."
                        -- William Ingogly

        "We have made of our ghetto a shining city on the hill."
                        -- Martin Schaffer

We have now had several installments of what appears to be an effort
to make a serious critique of today's science fiction, and several
equally serious efforts to respond to the above.  For those of us
who are pleased to consider SF as literature the discussions have
been entertaining, amusing, and thought- provoking.

Messiers Tucker and Ingogly have both stated that they like
science-fiction.  It is good they said it.  Had they not, I would be
wondering why people with the opinions: A) There is no good writing
in science-fiction, and B) I only read good writing, are
contributing to a forum called sf-lovers.  But they both said they
like it, and I, for one, will take them at their word.  All of the
contributions from these two gentlemen have been, in my opinion,
well thought-out and intelligent.  As someone who disagrees, I feel
an obligation to do my best to state my disagreements in some
rational way.

It would be pleasant to spend my time discussing the examples that
various of us have raised as good and bad, but I think also
pointless.  That I find it amazing that anyone could seriously
consider Truman Capote as good a writer as Roger Zelazny says
something about me, but very little about the merits of the writers
in question.  That Mr. Ingogly can put forward excellent standards
of comparison for writing (for the most part; there are flaws here,
too), yet believe, as he evidently does, that Peter DeVries compares
well to Gene Wolfe says a great deal about him, but again, nothing
about either writer.

It would be more of value to discuss, in general (perhaps I'll even
pretend I'm Hegel and bend over backwards to avoid examples), what
makes good writing.  I don't expect agreement to result, as we are
clearly dealing with completely different approaches.

All of the above is actually a long-winded introduction to a defense
of my statement that most of the best writers today are working in
sf.  I mean it.  I did say, "not all", and I agree with the
contributor who pointed out mysteries and children's books as places
to find good writing.  And yes, without naming names, I am
sufficiently well-read to believe that my opinions have some
validity.  But I did mean it.  I do not hold that opinion because I
read sf, rather, I read sf because I think that's where the good
writers are.  I did not come to this conclusion without giving most
other genres (including the literary genre) what I felt to be a fair
trial.  Yet this opinion differs from that of many literary critics.
Do I hold the opinion, then, that the type of literary criticism
we've been seeing is invalid for science-fiction?  Well, sort of.
It would be more accurate, however, to say that I feel the
approaches of many literary critics are invalid for any genre at
all.

Why are so many literary critics down on sf?  I'll tell you a story.
Some time ago I found out that the University of Minnesota had the
top-rated journalism school in the country.  Some time later, I
found out that this was because most of the people who rated
journalism schools were U or Mn Alumni.  So it is with literary
critics and the literary genre.  At least, with many of them.  There
are as many schools of criticism as there are of writing, and
Messiers Tucker and Ingogly are to be praised for subscribing (as
far as I can tell) to among the least obnoxious of them--at least,
neither of them have started explaining that Gore Vidal is a great
writer because he hasn't come to terms with his masculinity or
something.  (Note -- if anyone is not familiar with ISSUES AT HAND
and MORE ISSUES AT HAND by William Athling (also known as James
Blish) I recommend them.)

But enough prelude; it is time I put my mouth where my money is and
explain why I have such a high opinion of so many sf writers
compared to so many writers in other, and most the particularly the
"literary" genres.

There was a brief period when large segments of the population (I'm
speaking of the U. S.) were literate, yet the mass entertainment
media had not been invented.  During this time, it became necessary
for authors to tell stories, in order to appeal to those who just
wanted to be entertained and had no patience for intellectual depth.
Writers were forced, by the harshest economic necessities, to
simultaneously appeal to the lowest common denominator of their
readers, and still write with the depth craved by the intelligentsia.
Among the examples of writers from this period is Mark Twain.

With the arrival of radio, talkies, and television, large sections
of the literary community abandoned story telling as a necessary
part of fiction.  If you want to place this historically, read
Joyce's PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN, then read ULYSSES,
then start working from either end toward the middle.

Today, many writers feel that it is unnecessary to tell a story.
Other writers feel that ALL that is necessary is to tell a story.
The latter group can be found in the best-seller genre, the former
can be found in the literary genre.  Literary critics, almost
without exception (Ciardi is one exception -- maybe) belong to the
first camp.  And me?  Well, I am more likely to be impressed by a
good story with enough depth to give me something to think about
than by writing which tries to make up for its lack or obscurity of
plot by throwing in a car that has Shakespeare's birthday for a
license number.

Science fiction writers--the best of them--believe that a good story
is necessary and not sufficient.  That good English language values
(ie, the ability to write a sentence) are necessary, that the story
should be driven by characters who are real, three-dimensional human
beings, and that there should be a strong theme without (as Terry
Carr put it) a Message.

I will put up with cheap entertainment that is nothing more than a
story.  I will NOT put up with the pretentions of those who feel
themselves above the need to entertain me.  Let us remember that the
paintings of Van Gogh, even some of the more disturbing ones, can be
appreciated by someone with little or no understanding of art.  He
was willing to talk to us, not at us.

What else makes good writing?  Largely, I think, the ability to
transcend its genre (someone said, quite correctly, that ALL writing
today is genre writing).  Billie Holliday can be appreciated by
people who don't like jazz.  Beethoven by those who don't like
classical music, Stan Rogers by those who don't like folk, Dave Van
Ronk by those who don't like Blues, the Grateful Dead by those who
don't like rock.

In writing, Alexander Dumas may be enjoyed even by those who don't
like nineteenth century romanticism.  James Clavell(SHOGUN), for all
his (many!) flaws as a writer, goes beyond the best-seller genre.
Robert B.  Parker (EARLY AUTUMN) goes beyond mysteries, Ken Kesey
(SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION) beyond the literary genre. These people
give us something of value beyond satisfying the particular
requirements of their subfield.

It is this "something of value" that I look for.  It is writing that
challenges me, that makes me both feel and think, that sends me away
both entertained and with the knowledge that I have grown.  When
Zelazny is at his worst--just turning out a book to pay the bills
(CHANGELING is a good example)-- I still come away with something to
think about, a way to look at people--and myself--that hadn't
occurred to me before.  And I certainly come away entertained.

So much for my hopes to avoid examples.  But, yes, I think Sturgeon
was a great writer.  So was Blish.  So is John M. Ford, and Gene
Wolfe, and Robin Mckinley, and Robert B. Parker, and, yes, Roger
Zelazny, and Pamela Dean, and Ken Kesey, and Jane Yolen.  These
people believe that a good story, while not sufficient, is necessary.

Indeed, there is much that is bad in science fiction.  But the
problem isn't that Heinlein is doing so well--damnit, he INVENTED
many of the concepts that are now standard in the field.  It isn't
Asimov and Clarke, either--none of these are good writers, but they
have contributed to making the genre a medium in which much that is
valuable can flourish.  If you are looking for writers to pick on,
look for the ones who could have been more than hacks, but refused
to challenge themselves-- Piers Anthony, Alan Dean Foster, even
Andrew Offut.  Or the ones who seem bound and determined to make
sure they NEVER accomplish anything either new or with any literary
merit: Robert Asprin and others.  (See NOTE below).

But don't throw the Heechee out the Warp Drive.  Wait for Megan
Lindholm's new book, or read Nancy Kress, and rejoice that there is
a place where those who are willing to tell stories with good
literary values have a way to enrich us with the slices of their
lives they are sharing.

                -- Steven Brust

NOTE: The above statements are opinions.  It shouldn't be necessary
to say this, but I really DON'T want to offend those who enjoy
Anthony or Foster or Offut or Asprin.  I believe what I said, but
there is no reason you have to.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 85 1706-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #266
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 266

Today's Topics:

        Books - Brin & Cherryh & Gardner & McQuay & Varley,
        Films - Dykstra & Back to the Future (2 msgs),
        Music - SF and Music (2 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - Problems in SF & Time Control (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

To: "Randall B. Neff" <NEFF@su-sierra.arpa>
Subject: Re: Brin's super creatures
Date: 13 Jul 85 01:40:13 PDT (Sat)
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-icsa>

>In Startide Rising, the Dolphins are uplifted by increasing their
>intelligence.  But, they can only function with the technology
>supplied by humans.  The flaw with the Dolphins is that uplift
>should have included converting flippers to hands.

I recall a passage in the book about some finger-like extensions on
the dolphins that were scheduled to become real fingers at some
point. One of the dolphins even remarks on them, thinking that they
look ugly.

>The Dolphins are basically helpless without humans (or chimps)
>around, or without the human provided technology.  A group of
>abandoned humans can rebuild their technology (ie Swiss Family
>Robinson or Mysterious Island), but abandoned Dolphins are just
>wise-cracking swimming mammals.

Presumably when the Dolphin uplift is complete, they will be capable
of fending for themselves.  Doesn't Brin mention some other
handicapped race that is entirely dependent on Library technology,
either in Startide Rising or in Sundiver?  This race sometimes halts
human vessels and demands "tolls" of whale songs.  I can't find this
passage right off hand, so this may not be a reliable recollection.
Actually, I agree that it would be best to be "paranoid" in
designing a sentient race; civilization might fall, and a
handicapped race might lose its sentiency without its technological
crutches.  Larry Niven writes about these kinds of problems (ref the
Bandernatch and the Grogs).

-jns

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 06:59:23 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: The Kif Strike Back (warning: mini-spoiler)

               *** WARNING:  MINI-SPOILER AT END ***

> From: Andrew Sigel <sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> CHANUR'S VENTURE has been in print since mid-spring, but was
> retitled THE KIF STRIKE BACK.  The hardcover was published by
> Phantasia Press.  Those waiting for paperback will have to wait,
> probably until winter, for the DAW paperback.

NOT SO!  CHANUR'S VENTURE was the 2nd book in the series (after THE
PRIDE OF CHANUR); THE KIF STRIKE BACK is the 3rd book (whose title
was thought to be CHANUR'S REVENGE).  I just finished TKSB this
weekend; for those who read the first two books, it's a must.  I
found it better than CV, maybe even better than TPOC.  There's only
one problem:

                        *** MINI-SPOILER ***

SHE DID IT TO US AGAIN!  At the end of CHANUR'S VENTURE, the action
stopped at a crucial point with the words "TO BE CONTINUED in
CHANUR'S REVENGE".  In THE KIF STRIKE BACK, things were flying fast
and heavy, when I found myself on the last page with the words "TO
BE CONTINUED in CHARUR'S HOME- COMING".  What is this, adventure
serials?  Once was irritating, but twice in a row is damned
inconsiderate!
                              marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 16:38 EDT
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: Craig Shaw Gardner
To: steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA

> From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
>> Dave Steiner asked:
>>Does anyone know anything about a Craig Shaw Gardner?  I read a
>>story of his in Flashing Swords #5. It was about a sorcerer named
>>"Ebenezum".  I found it a rather amusing story and have been
>>looking for other things by him but have never seen anything.
>>Anybody know if he has written anything else?
>Craig is an old friend, although we haven't been in touch very much
>the last few years.  He's been writing for over a decade; he's
>published fiction in a couple of magazines and a few anthologies,
>film reviews, and SF book reviews.  I've heard that he's recently
>signed a multibook contract with a major SF publisher.
>
>Craig is a terrific guy, very funny.  He goes to a lot of cons and
>serves on panels at most of them, so you might run into him if you
>go to any yourself.
>
>I'll give him a call and get a list of his fiction credits for you.

I finally spoke with Craig last night.  He was happy to report that
Ace is going to publish three Ebenezum novels: "A Malady of
Magicks", "A Multitude of Monsters", and "A Night in the
Netherhells".  I don't know exactly when the books will start
appearing.

As for his other credits, he's published 15 stories previously, most
of them horror.  A couple of the stories are "Bar and Grill" in the
anthology "Afterwar" and "Overnight Guest" in the "Midnights"
anthology.  Still to appear is "The Man Who Loved Water" in "Shadows
8".

In addition, Craig has  written a large number  of book reviews  for
the Washington Post  and the  Cleveland Plain Dealer.   He has  also
written (but not yet sold) a Billy the Kid western novel.  (It turns
out he is a  descendant of Billy the  Kid's stepfather, which  might
explain the book.)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 85 14:14 EDT
From: ------ Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: Mike McQuay

I would like to recommend the following books by Mike Mcquay:

         _Lifekeeper_                _Jitterbug_
         _Pure_Blood_                _Escape_From_New_York_

   All of these books take place After The Fall Of Civilization As
We Know It.  While I am not prepared to review or critique these
books at this time, I can recommend them as entertainment on a rainy
Sunday afternoon.

   The _Lifekeeper_ is a computer which governs Earth's militaristic
societies, whose precept is that war is the the greatest human
endeavour.

   In _Jitterbug_ the Arabs have taken over and hold the world
hostage through economic control and pestilence.

   _Pure_Blood_ has acid rain, genetically engineered lifeforms,
brother vs brother in the struggle for civilization, and a sequel in
the works.

   _Escape_From_New_York was made into a movie starring a scroungy
Kurt Russell which managed to retain some of the book's atmosphere.
The President's plane has been shot down by terrorists over the
penal colony of New York City and only Russell's character, a
tough-guy loner on the wrong side of the law, can get him out.
(Aside: I always liked this character and hope to hear more about
him.)

   The urban atmosphere in _Jitterbug_ and _Escape_From_New_York is
gritty and dismal and all of the books are violent and bleak.  Not
much hope for the future here.  But I read these like my friend the
english teacher reads gothic romances, secretly.

   Jessie@ncsc

------------------------------

Date: Sun 14 Jul 85 09:52:23-PDT
From: Stuart.Cracraft@isi-vaxa, x144@isi-vaxa,
Subject: Wither Varley?

I used to be a great fan of John Varley's. This corresponded with
the time that he was writing and publishing his '8 Worlds' series.

Since then, I've been extremely disappointed with his
Titan/Wizard/Demon series and somewhat disappointed with his
Millenium novel. The first is greatly overbloated. The second is
merely slightly confused.

Does anyone know what his upcoming works will be? I heard that his
publishers and agents pushed him into writing the Titan series
before he was ready artistically.

        Stuart

------------------------------

From: mmintl!tedi@topaz.arpa (Ted Ives)
Subject: Dykstra, Star Wars, etc.
Date: 11 Jul 85 13:41:15 GMT

        Regarding the comment on Leeper's review of Lifeforce:John
Dykstra did indeed do the special effects for Star Wars-he was, in
fact, in charge of the entire team (this is when George Lucas'
famous company, Industrial Light and Magic ,was born).  He
originally worked UNDER Douglas Trumbull on 2001; Trumbull is
usually credited with just about everything as far as Special FX
goes in that movie.
        Also, Trumbull, NOT Dykstra, did the special FX for Star
Trek- The Motion Picture.  Since Industrial Light & Magic has done
both STII-TWOK and STIII-TSFS, I assume Dykstra was involved in
those.
                                -Ted Ives
                                pwa-b!mmintl!tedi

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: A Speculation on "Back to the Future"
Date: 12 Jul 85 23:27:12 GMT

Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about:

What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from 1955?

I think you have to break this into two lines of discussion, based
upon social changes versus technology.

Here's my ideas:

From a technological point of view, advances now haven't been too
suprising-- with a few notable exceptions.  No one then guessed the
impact of the miniaturization of computers would have; the idea of
putting a computer in a washing machine!  Similarly, the space
program has travelled in a completely different direction than
people expected, with the gain of suprising knowledge about
planetary and galactic astrophysics.

The two real suprises, though, are in biology and particle physics.
Both of these fields have seen the advent of whole new fields.  The
whole notion of genetic engineering, for instance.  Or (take a deep
breath) quantum chromodynamics.

The REALLY big changes have been social.  Nobody expected the
tremendous flux in almost every aspect of society; it's not just
that things are massively different, it's that every 3 or 4 years,
they are massively different.  The world political situation would
be simply incomprehensible.

What we eat has changed radically; what we see on the TV even more
so.  So here's my apotheosis of the 1985 man:

   After pulling his "Light" gourmet frozen dinner out of the
   computerized microwave, he sits down to a tape of MTV videos.

Any comments?

[By the way, videos are possibly one of the most shocking things of
all.  Who would have guessed that people would pay to have
Hallucinations and other dreams beamed into their houses?]

Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Back to The Future (SPOILER)
Date: 13 Jul 85 00:25:24 GMT

I haven't read the book, but you didn't say anything about "book",
so...

> The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't
> that it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use
> them wrong.

What makes you say that it was supposed to be parallel universes?

(Personally, I like applying Hogan's theory from Thrice Upon A
Time.)

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek,
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 85 01:02:26 pdt
From: k-9%ucbcory@Berkeley (David Riggle (who else?))
Subject: Re: SF and Music

And while we're on the subject, where in the real **HARD SCIENCE**
stories is music, or any of the arts?  Except for "Green Hills of
Earth" and another Heinlein story (the one about the geniuses on Mt.
Shasta) whose title I can't remember, I have read no other works in
which music or any other of the fine arts plays an important part.
And those stories aren't particularly "hard" to my way of thinking.
What is it?  Are there no arts in the future?  Will humanity grow
out of the "humanities"?

It seems the writers are even writing their own profession out of
the future.  Are the liberal and/or fine arts strictly fantasy
material?  Not serious or (heaven help us) macho enough?  Too much
gleaming steel and circuitry for a few wooden instruments?  (Not
high-tech enough, I suppose -- but why should not instruments
continue to evolve with man?  They have up to this point...)

Excuse the ranting tone of this letter -- 'tis a subject too near a
music-bachelor's heart for reason and calm -- after all, I'm being
written out of a job! :-)

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 13 Jul 85 01:24:32 GMT

> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
> written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such might
> be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel,
> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.
> Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

    One book that immediately comes to mind is _The_Songmaster_ by
Orson Scott Card.  If I remember correctly, _To_Name_a_Shadow_ by
Ann Maxwell is also a good example of this.  It's been awhile since
I read this.
                                   John Allen
                                   Ohio State University
                                   (UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen)
                                   (CSNet: allen@ohio-state)

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: a comment on the sf as literature discussion
Date: 10 Jul 85 13:20:53 GMT

ops@ncsc writes:
>Listening to you all arguing among yourselves over what is good
>literature, or how much more realistic the explosions in one movie
>are over the explosions in another, or which author is more godlike
>than another, or whether fantasy is as valid as hard science
>fiction, or any of the other subjects you bicker over had me
>wondering if any of you remember the wonder and the awe of
>realizing that the things you read about in your treehouses and
>under your covers by flashlight could actually be true and that one
>day you could have a part in making them be true. I wonder how many
>of you were as influenced in your lives by science fiction as I
>have been in mine.

We probably wouldn't be reading this newsgroup if we hadn't been
strongly influenced by SF. But people are influenced by literature,
music, and the other arts in different ways, and people approach
their enjoyment of these things from different backgrounds and
perspectives.  What seems to be 'bickering' or 'arguing' to you is
our approach to the enjoyment and understanding of SF; it's just as
valid and enjoyable an approach to the genre as reading in a
treehouse under covers by flashlight. Wonder and awe was enough for
me when I was a teenager. Now that I'm an adult, I demand more from
the literature I read. It's a matter of personal taste and
experience, and my way of enjoying SF doesn't diminish yours or
anyone else's in this group.  If you don't care for criticism, skip
over the critical discussions when you read the news.
                            -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Time control book
Date: 10 Jul 85 02:38:00 GMT

If you're looking for Time Control stories, you might want to look
for the book "The Empire Of Time."  I don't remember the author, but
the cover had a train going into a tunnel with two lion statues on
either side of the tunnel.  One comic thing: the main headquarters
for the crosstime empire was in 1985!
                                                orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 13:45 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Theory of Time...

It's all rather simple (to a simple mind),

Time is just natures way of keeping everything from happening at
once.

(Is there in truth no beauty?)

Jon Pugh
(Repeating things is my job)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 85 2107-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #267
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 267

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brunner & Lanier & Laumer,
                 Films - James Bond Trivia,
                 Miscellaneous - The Problem with SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 23:43:54 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Pluterday

John Brunner wrote it, and it's the only thing of his I really liked
besides The Traveller in Black, which is one of my favourite books
of all time...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 16:40:12 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: RE: Juanita Coulson

>Has anyone heard of two books (I think) written by Juanita Coulson
>.... They are "Hiero's Journey" and "A Forsaken Hiero".

To begin with, these excellent books were written by Sterling Lanier
and not by Juanita Coulson (I have never read any of her books --
any comments on them?), and the titles are "Hiero's Journey" and
"The Unforsaken Hiero".  No, there are no other books out about Per
Hiero Desteen at this point, though it is possible that Lanier is
working on a new one.  It took him about 8-10 years (I don't
remember exactly) to get to the second one, so I wouldn't hold my
breath.  I believe the title "The Unforsaken Hiero" stems from the
fact that Lanier finally got around to finishing it.

The books have some interesting twists on psychic powers that I
found quite interesting (different wavelengths, etc.).  BTW, Lanier
has written another book called "Menace Under Marswood" which was
also a good time.
                              Will Duquette

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 21:23 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: "End as a Hero" (Keith Laumer) reviewed

                            Micro-review

I expected to be disappointed; I was.  Not worth the money or the
time.
                            Real review

"End as a Hero" bears a copyright date of 1985.  The overleaf does
not state (as is usually customary) that a portion of the story
appeared in different form quite some time ago.  "End as a Hero" was
originally published as a short story in Galaxy Magazine (copyright
date 1963).  The version now in the stores consists of the original
short story with minor modifications, plus 94 pages of new lead-in
and about 10 pages of new wrap-up.

The seams between the old and new material show... boy, do they
show.  The original material is all told in the first person;
everything else is in the third person (the original material is
inserted in the form of a "voluntary statement").  The original
story had sufficient background information in its first few pages
to give the reader a very good idea of what had been going on up to
that point; this material remains unchanged, but duplicates (and
sometimes appears to conflict with) some of the new lead-in writing.
The new ending seems to be pretty much a tack-on to clean up a few
loose ends and "explain" how the protagonist is going to get away
with what he'd pulled at the end of the short story.  Worse yet, the
new material is less coherent than the original, and tends to
wander.
                             Commentary

In a posting to this meeting that I read this week, someone (sorry,
I'm too lazy to dig back and find out who) asked "What has happened
to Laumer recently?" or some such.  I wish I knew, and that it
hadn't happened.  I'm a Laumer fan from 'way back, and probably own
most of what he's published.  I find the quality of what he's
written in the past five or ten years (from "The Ultimax Man" in '78
onwards) to be far poorer than his earlier writing.  Much of what
he's done recently seems to be weak reworking of earlier stories
(this book being one example) or extensions of earlier series that
lack much of the craftsmanship and fun of the originals (the latest
"Retief" for one example; I've been afraid to pick up the latest
O'Leary story).  I believe "Star Colony" falls into the first
category, but I honestly can't remember enough about its plot &
characters to be certain.  It looked for quite a while ('70 to '78,
I think) as if Laumer had retired for good, and I kept wishing he'd
write some more.  Well, he's been doing so, and I find myself
wishing that he'd stayed retired.

Laumer's earlier stories tended to have a lot in common with one
another (lone-wolf good guy gets thrown into an unexpected &
hazardous situation, develops new powers or acquires new knowledge,
has a rough time of it but wins through in the end).  I generally
found them well crafted, reasonably believable (except for the
"Retief" stories, of course) and fun... certainly not "quality
literature" in the sense of the recent network discussions, but well
worth the read, and frequently worth rereading just for the halibut.
I don't feel that his recent work (the last decade's worth) is any
of the above.  I keep buying in the hope that I've been wrong and
that he still has a fine story or six in him, and a little voice
keeps jeering in my ear, "There is no hope!"  It's gonna be a long
while before I buy another, 'less I see a very favorable review
somewhere.
                           Recommendation

Don't buy the current publication of "End as a Hero" unless you've
got three bucks (ridiculous!) to blow on 50 decent pages padded with
100 mediocre ones.  Instead, try to find a used copy of "Nine by
Laumer" (copyright 1967; I got mine for a buck).  You'll find the
original "End as a Hero" short, "Hybrid", "Dinochrome" (the original
"Bolo" story, I believe), the eerie "A Trip to the City" (a.k.a. "It
Could be Anything"; would have made a good Twilight Zone episode)
and several others.  Or, pick up almost anything Laumer wrote before
1970 (check the copyright dates to be sure); "A Trace of Memory" is
back in print after a lapse of many years, and shows early Laumer at
about his best.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 85 15:00:29 CDT (Sunday)
From: Finch.dlos@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #263

In reply to LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA {Mijjil} trivia question:

Blofeld's Full name is: Ernst Stavro Blofeld

The name sticks in my mind because it has a certain rhythm.

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who responded
with the same or similar information:

Dave (Newman.pasa@Xerox)
Leigh Ann Hussey (lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley)
]

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS TODAY
Date: 11 Jul 85 21:50:58 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>Messiers Tucker and Ingogly have both stated that they like
>science-fiction.  It is good they said it.  Had they not, I would
>be wondering why people with the opinions: A) There is no good
>writing in science-fiction, and B) I only read good writing, are
>contributing to a forum called sf-lovers.

Where did you get this from my postings? They make it abundantly
clear that I don't hold either position. I've explicitly stated (A)
that there's good writing in all fictional genres, and (B) that I
read all sorts of fiction. See my comments about the much-maligned
Peter DeVries below, for example. Or my comments about Vladimir
Nabokov's catholic tastes in a (much) earlier posting of mine.

Criticism does not mean hatred. It doesn't even necessarily imply a
mild distaste. When I was six, I sometimes thought my parents'
criticisms meant they no longer loved me. I've since grown out of
that opinion. I criticize much of what I read. I also continue
reading it.

>That I find it amazing that anyone could seriously consider Truman
>Capote as good a writer as Roger Zelazny says something about me,
>but very little about the merits of the writers in question.

Just so no one thinks Steve is talking about me, I wasn't the one
who called Mr. Capote a first-rate author.

>That Mr. Ingogly can put forward excellent standards of comparison
>for writing (for the most part; there are flaws here, too), yet
>believe, as he evidently does, that Peter DeVries compares well to
>Gene Wolfe says a great deal about him, but again, nothing about
>either writer.

My personal feeling is that Mr. DeVries is an underrated writer.
He's the American equivalent of P. G. Wodehouse, another minor
author of very funny books who I enjoy reading. I obviously read
less-than-first rate fiction; that's one of the reasons I named Mr.
DeVries. I DON'T recall comparing him directly to Gene Wolfe, so I
believe you're misinterpreting me there. We all have peculiarities
in the set of writers we enjoy reading, authors other people ignore
or even scorn.  Peter DeVries is one of my peculiarities. I'm sure
you have them too, Steve. Even those of us with perfect taste have
occasional lapses (oh, come on; where's your sense of humor? That's
a JOKE, all you literal-minded terminal jockeys out there in
netland...:-)

>Why are so many literary critics down on sf?  I'll tell you a
>story.  Some time ago I found out that the University of Minnesota
>had the top-rated journalism school in the country.  Some time
>later, I found out that this was because most of the people who
>rated journalism schools were U or Mn Alumni.  So it is with
>literary critics and the literary genre.  At least, with many of
>them.  There are as many schools of criticism as there are of
>writing, and Messiers Tucker and Ingogly are to be praised for
>subscribing (as far as I can tell) to among the least obnoxious of
>them

Geez, at least my obnoxiousness is a MINOR character trait; I think
I can deal with that ... :-) You paint a picture of the literary
critical profession as being inbred; this is true. The SF field
seems to me to be somewhat inbred, as well. This has nothing to do
with the quality of thought or the validity of the ideas coming out
of any given literary critic or SF writer.

And your implication that criticism is by its very nature obnoxious
"says something about you," to use your own phrase. You seem to have
a hangup about criticism, or maybe about academics who make their
living by talking about other people's writing. As you've said,
there are many schools of criticism. And there are many types of
people who write about fiction. There isn't a perfect consensus or
standard in the literary community about quality in fiction or the
desireability of plot, and saying there is one don't make it so. If
you or other readers of this group have had bad experiences with
fiction outside the SF genre, I'm sorry. I stand by my claims for
'literary' fiction and those who criticize fiction, and I still
believe your claim that most of the best are writing in SF is way
off the mark.

>Today, many writers feel that it is unnecessary to tell a story.
>Other writers feel that ALL that is necessary is to tell a story.
>The latter group can be found in the best-seller genre, the former
>can be found in the literary genre.  Literary critics, almost
>without exception (Ciardi is one exception -- maybe) belong to the
>first camp.

I think this is an unfair generalization, Steve. Take a look at the
books reviewed in the New York Review of Books or the New York Times
Book Review over the past year or two. There are authors and
reviewers who believe plot has been taken as far as it can go, so
they emphasize other things in fiction. But as you yourself have
said, there are many different approaches to literary criticism. To
writing, as well; you'll find many books reviewed by the litcrits in
these newspapers that DO tell good stories. And what's Good Story to
me isn't necessarily Good Story to you. Or maybe you know something
the rest of us don't? Is there a canonical definition of Good Story
other than what's engaging to some (maybe only one) of a book's
readers? If there is, I've never seen it.

Plot is a tool. It isn't fiction in its entirety. Consider Italo
Calvino's "Invisible Cities," a book that some of us might call
fiction. As Charlie Martin pointed out, it's metafiction to a
certain extent: fiction about fiction. By pushing against the limits
of our definition of what fiction is, Calvino is calling attention
to the artificiality of a definition like 'fiction' or 'Good Story.'
At the same time, he's extending the definition to include his book.
At least some of us find that sort of writing engaging and (yes)
enjoyable.  There are as many ways to read as there are to write.
And my claim is that "Invisible Cities" is a GOOD STORY; what's
more, it's a Good Story that doesn't have a plot. Furthermore, my
enjoyment of the qualities in Calvino's writing is probably as
intense as the enjoyment you get from reading non-'literary'
fiction. You might ask yourself if plotless books like Stanislaw
Lem's "A Perfect Vacuum" and "Imaginary Magnitude" are (A) enjoyable
(B) Good Stories. Or perhaps you're one of those who think less of
Lem for his excursions into metafiction.

>And me?  Well, I am more likely to be impressed by a good story
>with enough depth to give me something to think about than by
>writing which tries to make up for its lack or obscurity of plot by
>throwing in a car that has Shakespear's birthday for a license
>number.

And some of us might be amused by finding such a reference in a
story.  We all read for different reasons. Another comment: you're
just plain wrong in claiming (as you seem to be) that most or all
'literary' fiction can be characterized by bankrupt plot and
superficial cleverness.

>Science fiction writers--the best of them--believe that a good
>story is necessary and not sufficient.  That good English language
>values (ie, the ability to write a sentence) are necessary, that
>the story should be driven by characters who are real,
>three-dimensional human beings, and that there should be a strong
>theme without (as Terry Carr put it) a Message.

I find the same qualities in a lot of contemporary non-SF fiction,
what you call 'literary' fiction. We're either reading totally
different books or dealing with personal prejudices here.

>I will put up with cheap entertainment that is nothing more than a
>story.  I will NOT put up with the pretentions of those who feel
>themselves above the need to entertain me.  Let us remember that
>the paintings of Van Gogh, even some of the more disturbing ones,
>can be appreciated by someone with little or no understanding of
>art.  He was willing to talk to us, not at us.

Some art works on many levels. Some doesn't. There are interesting,
rewarding, and entertaining works of art in both groups. This
applies to 'literary' fiction as well as the field of painting.

>It is this "something of value" that I look for.  It is writing
>that challenges me, that makes me both feel and think, that sends
>me away both entertained and with the knowledge that I have grown.

Guess what? We both read fiction for the same reasons.

>Indeed, there is much that is bad in science fiction.  But the
>problem isn't that Heinlein is doing so well--dammit, he INVENTED
>many of the concepts that are now standard in the field.  It isn't
>Asimov and Clarke, either--none of these are good writers, but they
>have contributed to making the genre a medium in which much that is
>valuable can flourish.

I'd like to point out (again, to set the record straight) that I
made the same comment in one of my postings.

>If you are looking for writers to pick on, look for the ones who
>could have been more than hacks, but refused to challenge
>themselves-- Piers Anthony, Alan Dean Foster, even Andrew Offut...

I'm sorry you and other people thought Mr. Tucker and I were
'picking' on their favorite authors. We all have personal favorites,
Steve (I happen to like Peter DeVries and P. G. Wodehouse; they make
me laugh).  I have few illusions about mine, and I fully realize
that many of my friends and acquaintances don't share my tastes. I
also have been trained to approach literature critically, and I
enjoy reading that way. There is good AND bad in all writing. I feel
that my knowledge and appreciation of literature (including SF) is
enhanced by approaching it this way; I certainly don't put down
those who approach it in other fashions, and I apologize if any of
my postings created that impression.

                    -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 85 2122-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #268
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 268

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Chalker (2 msgs) & Sallis,
                 Films - Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome,
                 Music - Music in SF (3 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - FTL Travel (2 msgs) &
                         Alien Visitors (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bcsaic!randy@topaz.arpa (randy groves)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker
Date: 11 Jul 85 02:19:30 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>As far as I can tell, Chalker uses the *same* two ideas in every
>book he writes: shape change and mind control/tyranny.  He is
>reasonably inventive in coming up with variations on these, but as
>far as I am concerned, enough is enough.

Not only that, but in the Lords of the Diamond tetralogy, he used
almost exactly the same *TEXT* for about thirty pages.  (... let's
see, block copy from here to new passage, change the names ...)

randy groves
...!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker
Date: 14 Jul 85 22:04:07 GMT

>Not only that, but in the Lords of the Diamond tetralogy, he used
>almost exactly the same *TEXT* for about thirty pages.  (... let's
>see, block copy from here to new passage, change the names ...)

Ah, but in the Four Lords of the Diamond, it was *essential* that
the text be exactly, or almost exactly, the same.  (I found it
interesting that he did change some of the text; I guess he believes
that the physical substance making up a person affects (if not
controls) that person's thoughts---a reasonable stand....)

In-Real-Life: Chris Torek,
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

From: sdcc3!valerie@topaz.arpa (Valerie Polichar)
Subject: Have you ever heard of JAMES SALLIS?
Date: 11 Jul 85 20:42:51 GMT

If you have ever read anything by James Sallis, /please/ write to
me!

I am beginning to think he is just a figment of my imagination!

He wrote a book called "A Few Last Words" which was published by
MacMillan...

Valerie Polichar
sdcsvax!sdcc3!valerie

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome"
Date: 12 Jul 85 07:29:46 GMT

     "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is the occasion for a very rare
type of disappointment for me: the inevitable realization that not
every film made by a great director is going to be a masterpiece.
"Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is a good enough film, but it is not
nearly as good as "The Road Warrior" or George Miller's segment of
"The Twilight Zone".  It's just a solid action film, not really
anything special, and that disappoints me more than a full-blown
artistic failure.  The latter can be seen as overambition or merely
a valiant effort that failed.  A perfectly average film, though,
suggests that maybe the director doesn't have a lot of juice in him,
maybe he's shown us everything he has already.  (For a good example
of this contrast, compare "1941" and "Indiana Jones and the Temple
of Doom".  "1941" is definitely a failure, but it's a failure
because Spielberg tried something different that just didn't work.
"IJTOD" failed because Spielberg lazily tried to copy precisely what
he had done before rather than do the real work of coming up with
something new.)

     "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome", co-directed by Miller and George
Ogilvie, is set in the same world as "Mad Max" and "The Road
Warrior", but several years after the latter film.  Mel Gibson, as
Max, runs afoul of Auntie Entity, a powerful leader in Bartertown, a
fairly vile trading village she has built up from nothing.
Bartertown runs on energy controlled by Master-Blaster, a dwarf
genius (Master) who rides a huge, brawny hulk of a fellow known as
Blaster.  Auntie Entity wants complete control of Bartertown, and
she intends to use Max to get it.  After a variety of plot twists,
Max finds himself out in the desert where he meets a tribe of lost
children who are expecting a messiah.  Max involuntarily takes the
role, leading to yet further complications.

     If the above description sounds a bit diffuse, there you have
the major problem of "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome".  Unlike "The Road
Warrior", it doesn't have a clean plot line.  Instead, it has
incidents strungs together rather uncomfortably.  The early part of
the film is best.  While not up to the previous films, it is crisply
directed and has a sense of purpose.  The latter half of the film is
muddled and uncertain.  We are given no sense at all that Max has
any plan worth speaking of when he returns to Bartertown.  We don't
know what he wants to do, and he doesn't seem to, either.  Even the
final chase scene, which has its moments, doesn't have the clarity
of the chase in "The Road Warrior".  In that film, the chase was so
perfectly constructed that every incident in it seemed both
inevitably correct and crystal clear.  The chase in this film
doesn't hang together, nor is there the terrible sense of
desperation present in "The Road Warrior".  Hence, it just isn't as
exciting.

     Mel Gibson also isn't as strong a presence as he was in either
of the first two films.  In those films, he really was the center of
the story, the one who made things go.  In this film, he seems more
acted upon than acting.  Neither is there the iron core previously
present in the character. Part of this may be due to the fact that
he doesn't have as clear a villain to work against.  Tina Turner is
quite good as Auntie Entity, but she isn't the pure force of evil
and destructiveness the earlier villains were.  Miller, who co-wrote
the screenplay with Terry Hayes, doesn't make it clear why Max
should oppose her.  Master-Blaster certainly seems more unpleasant
and dangerous.  Max's opposition could be made to work, but Miller,
Hayes, and Ogilvie don't succeed.  The supporting roles are very
well played, though the casting of Bruce Spence, the Gyro Captain in
"The Road Warrior", in a completely unrelated yet similar part is
more than a bit confusing.

     I don't want to get too down on "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome".
It has some fine sequences, there is a point behind the entire plot,
and all involved deserve praise for attempting more than a mere
retread of "The Road Warrior".  Particular praise goes to Grace
Walker, the production designer.  The only reason I can think of to
see "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" again is to compare the many subtle
differences between the sets and costumes of it and "The Road
Warrior".  Obviously, much thought has gone into deciding just how
artifacts and communities are going to degenerate as things run out
and wear down, and the results are sometimes more interesting than
the plot.

     Co-direction is extremely uncommon in America and most of
Europe, but apparently happens a lot in Australia.  Contrary to
rumor, George Miller and George Ogilvie both worked on the entire
picture, side by side throughout.  Ogilvie's theatrical background
shows up in some of the ensemble work with the children and the
citizens of Bartertown, but otherwise he seems to contribute little.
Either he watered down Miller or that gentleman is running out of
steam, for his incredible ability to sustain the tension of an
extended action sequence is notably missing from this film.  One
cannot blame the failures of "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" on
Ogilvie, however, as Miller, who also served as producer, could
easily have made the film by himself, if he wished.

     "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is a good adventure film which I
enjoyed, but it just isn't a classic.  If I hadn't seen "The Road
Warrior", I'd probably be perfectly satisfied with this film.
Unfortunately, I have seen "The Road Warrior", four times.  I
consider it the best film of the eighties, so far, and have every
intention of seeing it again.  On the other hand, I cannot picture
myself sitting through "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" again.  Much as
I like the character and the setting, I think Miller should retire
him and try to find some entirely different.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 85  13:55 EDT (Sun)
From: Mijjil <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: music, SF

what about Elton John's "Rocket Man" - if you've ever read Ray
Bradbury's "Illustrated Man" you might notice a short story there
called "Rocket Man" which is surprisingly similar...

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Sun 14 Jul 85 14:03:25-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: music in sf

>I concur.  And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>written SF in which music played a dominant theme?

Stories that come to mind immediately include:
  McCaffrey's ``Harper Hall'' trilogy (Dragonsong, -singer, and
                                       -drums)
  McCaffrey's ``The Ship Who Sang''

Stories which use music, but not as a dominant theme, include:
  Adams' Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything [The Disaster Area
         concert]
  C. Smith's  ``Under Old Earth'' [The congohelium]
  Anthony's _Macroscope_ [Ivo's flute]

Without refering to my collection, that's all I can think of
offhand.  McCaffrey's the only author I know of who really uses
music as an important part of the story.

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA
UUCP: ..ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 85 16:37:32 PDT (Sunday)
Subject: Re: SF in Music
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

How about:

Al Stewart's "The Sirens of Titan"

        (I forget which album this is from) The song is quite
        definitely based on the Kurt Vonnegut novel.  I heard the
        song first, so I had a really great time reading the book.
        ("Oh, so THAT'S what that means! ...")

Genesis' "One For the Vine"

        (From "Wind & Wuthering) An entertaining time-travel
        fantasy.

and let's not forget all the Stevie Nicks songs that sound like all
the bad fantasy novels that clog the SF shelves at B. Dalton.

                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Sat 13 Jul 85 12:24:52-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: re: FTL Travel

>Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel
>is just plain impossible.  All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms turn
>imaginary...

I'm sure this shows a shocking naivitee on the subject of
relativistic physics, but this argument never made much sense to me.
So what if the multiplier turns imaginary.  Imaginary numbers have
rights too.  Besides, since everything on the ship would have an
imaginary mass, their ratios would still be real.  I've always been
surprised that physicists would throw up their hands at this and say
"it's impossible" rather than finding out just what the consequences
of having imaginary mass, velocity and time would be

Evan Kirshenbaum

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: FTL travel
Date: 13 Jul 85 14:39:45 GMT

>From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams)
>>nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes:
>>   According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is
>>   exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there is no
>>   difference.
> Stories assuming ftl travel generally (implicitly) assume that
> special relativity is wrong, that there is a preferred frame of
> reference, which approximates our own here on Earth.  Admittedly,
> most do this because the author does not understand special
> relativity, BUT it is a consistent assumption -- just not very
> likely.

One would think that the Michelson-Morley experiment fairly well
ruled out this unlikely possibility nearly a hundred years ago!

> From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
> Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light
> travel is just plain impossible.  All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms
> turn imaginary .

No.  Special Relativity just says that you can't accelerate through
the speed of light.  It doesn't say you can't travel faster than the
speed of light.  Haven't you ever read any of the stuff on tachyons?
The tachyon theory is completely consistent with Special Relativity.
They always travel faster than light, and they travel backwards
through time.

> Any story in which ftl works is tacitly assuming that something
> new has superceded Relativity in the same manner as Relativity
> superceded Newtonian mechanics.  That, or the author just doesn't
> care about all the physical ramifications; he/she just needs ftl
> to tell the story.  (Either approach is equally valid in my book.)

Something might come along that might be more general than Special
Relativity (gee like General Relativity), but it's incredibly
unlikely that anything will ever contradict Special Relativity.
Special Relativity is mathematically derived from some very simple
assumptions..  If Special Relatvity were found to be incorrect, it
would mean that at least one of those simple assumptions is
incorrect.  It is EXTREMELY unlikely that any of these simple
assumptions is incorect, and if one of them were to be found to be
incorrect, it would have far more ramifications than merely FTL
travel, which then should be dealt with in the SF story.

                         Doug Alan
                          nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for
Date: 12 Jul 85 16:16:48 GMT

>The Idea that an advanced alien race would come to Earth (or
>anyhere else for that matter) is not as preposterous as it sounds.
>Isaac Asimov wrote a book in which the plot traced an expedition
>from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water.  This was no small task for
>the Martians.  For the "Visitors" it would be quite a bit easier.
>It has also been suggested that Jupiter would make a nice fuel stop
>for interstellar ships leaving or entering the Solar system.  Why
>Jupiter?  It would

In Asimov's classic story 'The Martian Way' Martian colonists were
getting water ice from Saturn's rings instead of from Earth's oceans
because of political problems with Earth.  It also turned out to be
much more economical than hauling water out of Earth's gravity well.

The idea of using Jupiter as a refueling station is that you don't
have to land, you just skim the edge of the atmosphere and scoop the
hydrogen out.  The only energy lost is from atmospheric friction.
Of course you have haul the fuel you scoop out of Jupiter's gravity
well, but you can use part of what you scoop as reaction mass, so
you have a net gain.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 13:03:17 pdt
From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke)
Subject: Re: What the Visitors came for

>> Isaac Asimov wrote a book in whichthe plot traced an expedition
>> from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water.
>
> Wasn't that Saturn ?

The story (novelette) is "The Martian Way", and the expedition went
to the asteroid belt, I believe.  (Makes more sense than Jupiter or
Saturn, doesn't it?  I could be wrong, however; I don't have a copy
of the story.)

With regard to the Visitors/Rigellians, I can't imagine a sapient
race being stupid enough to think we have a Bronze Age culture --
anyone about to invade a planet would monitor activity (especially
radio and TV) on that planet VERY carefully beforehand.

If they wanted red meat, they could have caused much less alarm by
snatching cows instead ... :-)

                                --Peter Alfke
                                  alfke.pasa@xerox -or-
                                  jpa144@cit-vax

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Jul 85 2138-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #269
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 269

Today's Topics:

            Books - Heinlein & Story Request Answered &
                    Life Probe & Best Short Stories,
            Films - Back to the Future & The Alien's Return &
                    Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome,
            Miscellaneous - Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 85 16:27:51 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Review of 3 Heinlein books since TEFL

     I dont remember the copyright date for TEFL, so Im not sure
what all has come out afterwards. There are 3 that I am sure of, all
of which have been debated hotly on this digest; I will append my
reviews, but please be aware that I am a RAH fanatic.

                      The Number of the Beast:

This was a fun book, with the same tone (to me) as TEFL.  same
friendly bickering, some introspection on the part of the
characters, and an interesting trick of having the narrator
alternate between the 4 major characters. I was having fun reading
this till the last major division of the book... where I feel RAH
copped out. I dont want to totally spoil it for you, so I wont give
any more detail.  The writing style stayed the same, the character's
interaction continued, but there was a cop out nonetheless.  This
book also has one of the most confusing last chapters I have ever
come across... if you are a completist reader, and have read
*everything* he has ever written, in addition to being a sf fan in
general, you will have fun with the last chapter... but I in my
ignorance was confused. It has been said that this book was written
deliberately self indulgently, with little regard for the readers. I
personally think it was an in joke played on the publisher, since
this book was a milestone for writers, in that it was negotiated
for, before beign written, for 6 million dollars. (i think; an
obnoxious amount of money, anyway).

                              Friday:

This is a book that goes back to his older style of writing: very
crisp, no nonsense, "of course this is the way it happened."  It is
reminiscent to me of the short stories in his Future History
Collection. Friday is the name of the lead character, a girl with a
very intriguing background. Many people have complained about the
lack of characterisation in this one, and of a pat, easy, out of
character (for the character) ending, but every time I reread it I
get a little insight into a different type of personality. His views
on a Balkanized America are amusing. Also, this novel uses some
characters and references from a short story in the collection
Assignment In (To?) Eternity. I can't remember the title of the
story, but there are only 4 in the book.

                     Job: A Comedy of Justice:

This book is different. It is not Science Fiction in any of its
incarnations, and it is not like anything else I have ever read from
Heinlein. It reads almost like a Mainstream Novel Using Fantasy As A
Device. I liked the concepts in the book, and I liked the general
idea, but I cant say I liked the book (shame, shame, I hang my head
in shame). The entire book is a continuation of his seeming tirade
against organized religion, but the humor and wit (well, I think
so!)  that he usually brings to his arguments is either missing or
so well hidden that I cant see it. And this is the one I bought in
hardcover... *sigh*. My only real warning is that his hero, like all
his men, is totally, thoroughly, and slightly disgustingly besotted
with his woman.

I hear there is another book out, mentioned in one of the digests,
called Cats: A Comedy of Manners. I know nothing of this one.

     I repeat: I am a Heinlein fanatic. Take all my raves with
however much salt you want. I do not think he is a male chauvinist,
nor that he believes everything he writes. Sometimes I think his men
are too adoring of the women in their lives, but that just enables
the women to take more complete control :).

Robert Heinlein, Robert Heinlein,
RAH! RAH! RAH!
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Sun 14 Jul 85 00:07:44-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA
Subject: Bruce McCulley's story request

> ...a juvenile story about a young teenage girl stranded in some
> situation alone on the moon, encountering an alien ..

The story is "The Enemy", by Damon Knight, copyright 1957. My copy
is in "Far Out", a collection of Knight stories published in 1962 by
Berkley.

Excellent stuff. As slick as Sheckley, but with more nightmare
potential.

Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Subject: Life Probe
From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeff Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1985 12:26 EDT

There is a really good story dealing with artificial intellegence,
man's first contact with extra-terrestrial intellegence, and FTL
travel, called "Life Probe".

                    ****** PSUEDO-SPOLIER ******

It is about a race of creatures, called The Makers, who are have a
strong desire for the seeking of knowlage, exploration, and all that
other good stuff. They have populated all the planets in thier solar
system, and some around nearby stars, but they are still
unsatisfied.

The only method of space travel they know is slower-than-light,
called Slow Boats. In order for them to colonize and explore more
rapidly, they set out to find the secret of FTL travel. They work up
a few good theories, but they all fail in practice, so they send out
several hundred thousand "Life Probes", which will scour the
universe in search of intellegent life, but more importantly
intellegent life that know the secret of FTL travel. One of these
probes happens across Earth, and decides to instigate it's prime
function. To establish contact with the Humans..

              ****** END PSEUDO-SPOILER SECTION ******

This book is really great, and the author has written more, but I
can't seem to remember his name.

------------------------------

Subject: Short stories and bibliography request
Date: 15 Jul 85 11:36:49 EDT (Mon)
From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA

>From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like
>to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see
>which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no
>other reason...

Just thought I would add a few of my favorites (off the top of my
head).  Although I am certainly *no* expert.

1.  Orson Scott Card, "Unaccompanied Sonata"  (One of few to make me
     cry, and only one to make me cry every time I reread it.)
2.  Alan Dean Foster, "With Friends Like These"  (My favorite "Humans
     are the best and can do anything" story)
3.  George Alec Effinger, "At the Bran Foundry" (Just great.)
4.  R.A. Lafferty, "Days of Grass, Days of Straw"  (ditto).

For older stories, I recommend The_Science_Fiction_Hall_Of_Fame,
Vol. One, edited by Robert Silverberg.

More generally, (in *my* book) anything by George Alec Effinger or
R. A. Lafferty.  In fact, I have tried to get my hands on as much of
their stuff as possible (I recommend Nine_Hundred_Grandmothers for
Lafferty's stories.), but I would be in debt to anyone who could
lead me to a comprehensive list of stories/novels by these two
authors.

John DeCarlo  <jdecarlo@mitre>

------------------------------

From: moncol!john@topaz.arpa (John Ruschmeyer)
Subject: Amusing reference in _Back to the Future_
Date: 14 Jul 85 02:29:32 GMT

I was reading the novelization of _Back to the Future_ and noticed
an amusing reference.

When Marty arrives in 1955, he arrives on the Peabody farm.  The
farmer, Mr. Peabody, has a son named....... Sherman.

This? In a story about time travel?  Can you say "Way-Back Machine"?
I knew you could?

Name:           John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:        Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:          (201) 222-6600 x366
UUCP:           ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john
                ...!princeton!moncol!john
                ...!pesnta!moncol!john

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Bad sci-fi movie: THE ALIEN'S RETURN
Date: 15 Jul 85 16:38:41 GMT

Recently endured this movie, which I don't recall ever seeing
before, or seeing any reference to, on a local independent TV
station (channel 30, KDNL-TV, St. Louis, MO); this might mean it
just came out in a syndication package or something, and you all
will get the chance to see it too.

Lucky you...

Nano-review: Gasp, choke, barf...

Probably the following contains *** SPOILERS *** (but how you can
spoil something already rotten I don't know... :-):

This movie has name stars: Cybill Shepherd, Jan-Michael Vincent,
Martin Landau, Raymond Burr. I thought it might actually have
possibilities, but, as I gazed in disbelief, I was disabused of that
notion...

Technical detail: At least the print that was aired locally had a
defective sound track. The voices, especially in the first half of
the movie, were muffled and distorted; when you upped the volume
enough to hear them, the music blared out at a painful level.

Plot: alien spacecraft appears, imbues certain individuals with
mysterious rays, zaps a rock with a crystalline pattern, and
disappears.  Comes back 25 years later, and does nothing... (Really;
Cybill and Jan-Michael get teleported into the spacecraft through a
spacewarp-type tunnel, and all that seems to happen to them is that
they are then beamed back to the ground a few feet from where they
left. No big deal... happens every day, right?)

Best scene: Martin Landau, as a hick sheriff, violently overacting
(if Martin Landau grins and shouts, that is overacting, right?),
complaining about the pop-top holes in beer cans being too small to
dunk a do-nut through, and pouring beer over his do-nut instead.
[Having just read all the Space:1999 Landau discussion meant I just
*had* to post news of another Landau vehicle, right?] :-)

This movie gets into cattle mutilation in a big way, too....

Was this a tax-loss or something?

Regards, Will

USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

From: tekcrl!terryl@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome"
Date: 14 Jul 85 20:18:06 GMT

     Gee, I thought I was the only one who was disappointed with the
new "Mad Max". I really have to agree heavily that the lack of a
clear plot line was the big disappointment for me. "Road Warrior",
and to a lesser degree, the original "Mad Max" had very recognizable
plot lines, even if they were very simplistic. Also, another point
is that the first two movies told their respective stories with
actions and people, whereas the new movie did it mostly with
fantastic sets. Now don't get me wrong, I liked the sets and the
photography, but it seems to me that they put too much emphasis on
the sets and not on the people or the story. Also, the ending is
directly stolen from the ending of "Road Warrior", but it just
didn't have the same sense of urgency or importance that the ending
of "Road Warrior" had. I'd also have to agree that Mel Gibson didn't
have much of an opportunity to do some acting here, as he did in the
first two. Granted, he didn't have much speaking parts in the first
two, but I'd blame the director/screenwriter for his lackadaisical
performance here instead of blaming Mel himself. I think Mel has
proven that he can do some real good acting, judging by his
performance in the first two movies and his really first-rate
performance in "The Year of Living Dangerously".

     All in all, if you're a "Mad Max" fan or a Mel Gibson fan, by
all means go see "Mad Max-Beyond Thunderdome", but don't expect too
much.
                                Terry Laskodi
                                     of
                                Tektronix

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 00:39:19 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"...

I had an interesting correspondence recently regarding "cute", and
why it has become anathema.  As example, I listed a variety of
characters, including the Ewoks.  The recent blast at the ewoks
prompted me to reproduce, in brief, that correspondence here:

<me> What is wrong with "cute" these days?  I'm sorry, but I LIKED
     the Ewoks!

<friend> I have spared myself the dubious delights of the Smurfs,
   along with most of the other rubbish that advertisers think will
   appeal to kids (and God help us, sometimes they're right).  That
   is definitely excessive cuteness, suited only to young
   adolescents, female I assume, who go to bed surrounded in
   teddy-bears.  But the cuteness of anything, even if it does
   resemble a walking teddy-bear, is decidedly limited when it wakes
   you up, as it did Leia, with a sharp spear at a sensitive spot.
   It is even more limited when hoardes of them rig deadfalls,
   treeborne traps, and batallions of archers to take out a legion
   of storm troopers.  So I think labelling the Ewoks "cute" is one
   of the oversimplifications that abound when people discuss Star
   Wars -- or when certain self-appointed network critics discuss
   anything having to do with sf.  Likewise silly speculation on
   their names: for instance, "it's Wookie spelled backward" (which
   of course, it isn't).

   Guessing further, I'd say that the most vocal sf followers these
   days want to project an image of "maturity", of following a
   literary form of serious intent.  Anybody who feels like that is
   bound to feel that "cuteness" is souring his cause.  Again, I
   think this is one for the self-appointed critics, and not to be
   taken too seriously by most of us.  It will have its day and be
   forgotten.

<me> Friends of mine have complained about the various traps used to
     trash the imperials, viz., how could they build them in such a
     short time?  I assumed, naturally enough, that there are large
     predators on the planet, that we never see, on which they use
     things like the swinging logs (that was a good one!)

<friend> Ah, yes, the Ewoks and the old two-logs-in-the-trees-as-a-
   giant-nutcracker trick.  Considering the evidence, I am quite
   prepared to believe the thing was already there, or didn't take
   them at all long to build.  What evidence?  They were a martial
   tribe.  The first encountered introduced himself to Leia with a
   spear, and gloated when the Imperial who tried to capture her was
   eliminated.  Han's group, trying to find her, was captured in one
   of their traps.  The whole group except 3PO was bound hand and
   foot, or more, and carried to the village, helpless.  Anybody who
   proposes to me that these are harmless, naive little teddy bears
   whose expression of bad temper is throwing stones will have to
   defend himself vigorously.  Whatever the reason -- perhaps, as
   you suggest, large predators not seen in the movie, where they
   would, after all, have been irrelevant -- the Ewoks were well
   able to defend themselves.  They made weapons and traps quickly,
   and there were many of them -- certainly enough quickly to hoist
   two logs into the trees and rig them for quick release.

   (And they had avoided the stormtroopers when the moon was checked
   for native life.  Even acknowledging that the stormtroopers'
   brains and helmets are probably made of the same stuff, that
   suggests that the Ewoks are skilled at evasion).

Apologies to my friend for publishing the letters, but I think they
would never have been seen otherwise.

I think, especially in light of some of the recent digest material
(D. Tucker's sallies and whatnot), that we're all taking ourselves
and SF much too seriously.  This dislike of "cuteness" (a subjective
term, at best) is evidence.

And c'mon, you Hoka and Fuzzy fans!  Why take offense?  I like them
too, and that's why I liked the Ewoks.  There is nothing about them
to be ashamed of.  And some of their methods were far more original
than the usual stage-swordplay and shoot-em-up horse-operas-to-the-
stars ("tin badge pinned to the space suit" says my fiance from the
other room...).

Comments?  Flames?

Leigh Ann Militant

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 85 1229-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #270
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 270

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Footfall (3 msgs),
                     Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) &
                             Cocoon & Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome,
                     Music - SF in Music (2 msgs),
                     Television - Space: 1999,
                     Miscellaneous - Christopher LLoyd & 
                             Problems in SF &
                             Aliens Visiting Earth (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: randvax!rohn@topaz.arpa (Laurinda Rohn)
Subject: Re: SF Writers in Footfall
Date: 11 Jul 85 22:34:24 GMT

lmc@denelcor.UUCP (Lyle McElhaney) writes:
>The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & Pournelle's
>new book _Footfall_ are:
>       Robert & Virginia Anson
>       Sherry Atkinson
>       Nat Reynolds
>       Joe Ransom
>       Wade and Jane Curtis
>       Bob Burnham
>       Carol North (added later)
>
>The remainder are not clear to me. The only other real clues are
>that Atkinson is pacififistic (non-paranoid, as Anson puts it). Bob
>Burnham has white hair and wears a gaudy vest, Ransom has a thick
>black mustache. Carol North could be Andre Norton, except that she
>is depicted as rather young.

Joe Ransom is probably Jim Ransom, who is a friend of mine and a
good friend of Jerry's as well.  He lives in LA.

With the clues about white hair and a gaudy vest, Bob Burnham HAS to
be Bob Forward, who has white hair and a wears some of the gaudiest
vests I've ever seen.

I'm not sure about the others.  I know there's a woman who used to
live in LA named Sherry A. McNeal, and she is (or was) active in the
pro-space community and has edited at least one book on the
subject.
                                        Lauri
                                        rohn@rand-unix.ARPA
                                        ..decvax!randvax!rohn

------------------------------

From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith)
Subject: Footfall... is this a good book?  Reviews?
Date: 15 Jul 85 17:40:46 GMT

Larry Niven and Jerry Pournell have come out with a new book that
(according to the dust jacket) looks mighty conventional to me.  The
plot reads like another aliens from another world descend to conquer
the Earth story.  The book itself is as big as encyclopedia too....
Jeeze what a long book!

So.... is this a good book?  Anybody know anything about it?

Could you reply by mail?  I can't keep up with net.books.

UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root
ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: SF Writers in Footfall
Date: 15 Jul 85 17:01:19 GMT

>The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & Pournelle's
>new book _Footfall_ are:
>        Robert & Virginia Anson
>        Sherry Atkinson
>        Nat Reynolds
>        Joe Ransom
>        Wade and Jane Curtis
>        Bob Burnham
>        Carol North (added later)
>Most obviously, The first are Robert (Anson) and Virginia Heinlein.
>Nat Reynolds and Wade Curtis write together, and both live in Los
>Angeles (if that's not enough of a clue, check out Curtis' response
>to the aliens' conditional surrender: "Nuke them till they glow,
>and then shoot them in the dark").

To make it even more obvious didn't Jerry Pournelle write for Analog
under the penname of Wade Curtis? I especially remember his story 'A
Matter of Sovereignity'.

------------------------------

From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Back to The Future (SPOILER)
Date: 14 Jul 85 23:16:20 GMT

>From: Daniel.Zigmond@CMU-CS-SPICE
>The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't that
>it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use them
>wrong.  Marty changed both universes.  The changes to the universe
>he returned to were obvious: his parents had dfferent
>personalities, he had a new truck, etc...  However, he also changed
>the universe he left.  He invented rock and roll (essentially).
>While he is playing Jonny B Goode at the dance (in 1955), the
>guitarist with the broken arm (whose name was something Berry)
>calls his brother "Chuck" to tell him about this great new style of
>music that Marty is playing.  This means that universe 1 (where
>Marty started) shouldn't have had any rock music in it because
>Marty wasn't around in 1955 to let Chuck know about it.  Of course,
>it did because otherwise Marty wouldn't have known the song (or
>have been in a rock band).

Huh?  Where in the movie is there a mention of parallel universes.
Marty doesn't change two universes.  He changes the original
universe into another one.  Perhaps in the original Universe Chuck
Berry did discover the new sound on his own.  But in the changed
universe, he had some help from Marty.  Where's the problem?

Chris Andersen

------------------------------

From: rocksvax!brenda@topaz.arpa (Brenda K. Joseph)
Subject: RE: BACK TO THE FUTURE
Date: 15 Jul 85 21:18:38 GMT

                   ******This is a spoiler******

If you look closely at the letter that the doc shows Marty in this
future, you can easily see the yellowed tape and where the tears
don't quite meet from him putting it back together after he tore it
apart.  I watched (twice) and he does put the letter in his pocket
thirty years ago after tearing it up.

He does NOT have the vest on before Marty goes back to the future.
I sat through it twice the other day, after seeing it once
previously.

REgarding paradoxes:
This movie traces a line, not a loop.  The line is Marty's existence
and his knowledge of events around him.  Before he goes back in time,
the world is as we know it and his world is as shown in the movie.
While back in time, he changes certain events.  For instance, Chuck
Berry hears him playing Johnny B Goode.  Had Marty never gone back
in time, he would have learned it the same way he did in our own
past.  I believe the same logic resolves Doc and Marty meeting.
They met without Marty going back, they will meet again (esp. since
Doc now knows Marty).

When Marty comes "back", the people around him are aware of the
changes he has "caused" to the timeline, but he isn't.  He hasn't
lived through them.

***My only problem is -- what happens to the Marty that lived in
this new universe up until the time the "original" Marty came back
from the future?  A friend recommended I read "Thrice Upon A Time".
Apparently this has similar views and puts forth the theory that
when Marty comes back from the past, the Marty that has been living
in the "altered universe" ceases to exist.  (I forget the author's
name -- haven't had a chance to read it yet.)

Brenda Joseph
Xerox Corporation
Arpanet: Joseph.Henr@Xerox.ARPA
CSNet: Not sure

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 15:34:17 edt
From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-css>
Subject: Cocoon

I finally got around to seeing Coocoon.  I am a bit surprised that
with all I have read about the movie, nobody has mentioned what, for
me, made it above average.  I am referring to the obvious Christian
undertones of trespasses, forgiving of those trespasses, baptism,
eternal life in the heavens, and perhaps even the death of a savior.
                         John

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome"
Date: 15 Jul 85 14:58:13 GMT

While I didn't like 'Beyond Thunderdome' as much as 'The Road
Warrior' that is apparently not a universal reaction.  I was
watching Siskel and Ebert last night and they were very high on the
picture.  They actually liked it better than 'The Road Warrior'.
They liked they way Miller brought some new ideas to the picture
instead of making a straight sequel.

That last chase sequence struck me as being too much like the one in
'The Road Warrior'.

I was bothered by a couple of things in the picture:

1.  Didn't the earlier pictures say that civilization collapsed
because of an energy shortage, with perhaps some help by fighting
over the remaining energy resources?  This movie says that it was
because of Nuclear Warfare.  I don't remember any point being made
of latent radioactivity in the earlier pictures.  The only thing I
can think of is that there were some isolated bombing during the
spasms of civilization's collapse and that Max has wandered into an
area near one of them.

2.  The children that find Max in the desert are too young.  I would
think that the collapse of civilization happened at least 10 and
maybe 20 years ago, but some of the children Can't be older than 5
or 6.  And unless I missed something, all of them were born before
the collapse.  The Feral Kid of the Road Warrior was older than them
and I'm pretty sure he was born not long the collapse.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 23:46:50 PDT
From: Kevin Carosso <engvax!KVC@cit-vax>
Subject: Queen song...

The Queen song with the starship is called "'39".  It's on "A Night
at the Opera".  A beautiful song too...  The story comes through
with a nice touch of subtlety.  It deals with a score of volunteers
who leave "in the year of '39".  Interestingly enough, they also
return "in the year of '39".

My favorite part:

In the year of '39
came a ship in from the blue.
The volunteers came home that day.
And they bring good news
of a world so beautiful,
though their hearts so heavily weigh.
For the earth is old and grey
little darling went away
but my love this cannot be.
Oh so many years are gone
though I'm older but a year,
your mother's eyes
from your eyes
cry to me

/Kevin Carosso            engvax!kvc @ CIT-VAX.ARPA
 Hughes Aircraft Co.

------------------------------

From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 14 Jul 85 21:16:50 GMT

>> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>> written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such
>> might be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel,
>> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

Ack.  There was some Asimov short story in which a composer is
brought in to help a psychologist who has found that music can cure
depression.. Can't remember the name.

        Steven

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Shapechangers in ST/Space 1999
Date: 10 Jul 85 02:34:00 GMT

About the Squire of Gothos: He did NOT have outside power coming in.
He was a pure energy being similar to the organians! In fact, he may
have been a young Organian for all we know.  However, I think that
the Squire and the Organians should not be classed as shapechangers
because neither had a true physical form in the normal sense.  Both
caused a physical form to appear by controlling energy patterns --
light energy waves patterned to form images, heat energy to form
tactile impressions, etc.  However, you have pointed up yet another
1999 inconsistency: Maya had to get the energy somewhere.  She did
not ingest an inordinate amount of food for a humanoid of her size
and build.  Where the <censored> did she get the (considerable)
energy to shapechange.  There is one logical explanation: her body
chemistry tapped the good old 3 degrees Kelvin beckground radiation
of the universe.  However, this implies a whole slew of abilities
and attributes that were never mentioned or displayed in the show.
1) she must have complete control over her rate and spectral range
of energy absorption.  Otherwise, she would always cause the area
around her to darken, acting as a natural EM silencer.  She would
also be apparent only as an area around her which had a lack of EM
radiation -- a sphere of darkness!  However, if she can regulate her
energy consumption, she would be able to: 1) shield the crew and
herself from ALL blast effects; 2) act as a portable radio,
microwave, etc. jammer; 3) could hide in the shadows, and in fact
create shadows!, at will.  Thus, we fall back on the basic problem
with S1999 ... the people writing the scripts didn't have the
requisite basic science background to pull it off.

About spindizzies: Thes little gadgets *propelled* the world or
city; MoonBase Alpha just went cruising along on momentum.
                                        orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

Subject: Christopher LLoyd
Date: 14 Jul 85 17:21:59 PDT (Sun)
From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>

Here is everything that I can remember seeing Chris Lloyd in:

Rev. Jim Ignatouski        "Taxi"
Lord Kruge                 "Star Trek III"
Doc E. Brown               "Back To The Future"
Sargeant Schultz           "To Be or Not To Be"
Frogface                   "The Lady In Red"
psycho patient             "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

Doug Krause
dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 20:14:55 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: STEVEN BRUST AND THE SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS

        I've noticed that most of the "replies" I read in SFLOVERS
(barring those which are purely informational) tend to be very
negative -- that is, people are willing to supply information in a
friendly way, but when it comes to opinions, particularly
controversial opinions....  Well, the attitude seems to be, "If I
can't flame about it, I'm going to ignore it."  The "Spoiler
Warning" messages are a case in point: some find them useful, while
others (who could surely ignore them easily enough) seem to get a
kick out of complaining.

        Having said this, I would like to congratulate SKZB for a
well-reasoned, unapologetic discussion of the merits of science
fiction, and of the relative merits (in his opinion) of various
authors.  In some ways I agree, in some I disagree, but at least he
has a viewpoint that doesn't drift toward one of the various
extremes that plague this newsletter.
                                           Will Duquette

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Re: what an advanced race would ...
Date: 10 Jul 85 02:45:00 GMT

Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that Hydrogen and Oxygen were
two of the most common elements in the universe.  Therefore, why
invade a defenseless Earth to get (possibly polluted) water?  They
forgot one major fact: Most of that hydrogen is tied up in stars.
Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go and skim a star
for hydrogen any time soon.  Especially Rigel!

Somebody else mentioned that the Visitors came in conventional
spaceships with conventional drives.  I hate to disillusion you, but
early in the first or second mini-series, it was established that
the Visitors ships were all gravitic drive.  That alone provides a
very effective way to lift water out of a gravity well... or to lift
anything at all for that matter.
                                           orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 10:10:55 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Advanced Races Visiting Earth

Obviously -- they can't get on any TV shows where they come from,
since the quality of scripts there is equally advanced.

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: What the Visitors came for
Date: 15 Jul 85 14:29:59 GMT

Actually I neither know nor care what the Visitors came for.
However..
>>> Isaac Asimov wrote a book in whichthe plot traced an expedition
>>> from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water.
>>
>> Wasn't that Saturn ?
>
> The story (novelette) is "The Martian Way", and the expedition
> went to the asteroid belt, I believe.  (Makes more sense than
> Jupiter or Saturn, doesn't it?  I could be wrong, however; I don't
> have a copy of the story.)

Sorry, but you are wrong.  The expedition went to the rings of
Saturn.  The water content of asteroids is probably very small.  The
moons of Jupiter have lots of water, but Asimov implied that even a
modest gravitational field would have been a problem.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 85 1328-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #271
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 271

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Herck & McCollum &
                        Robinson & Wilhelm,
                Films - John Dykstra & Back to the Future,
                Television - Killing Heros & Blake's Seven,
                Miscellaneous - FTL Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john)
Subject: Re: Time control stories
Date: 15 Jul 85 07:37:00 GMT

>Did anyone notice that the girl from planet Gaiea (spelling?) in
>Foundation's Edge seems suspiciously like the girl who went back in
>time with the engineer in The End of Eternity-- is she a robot who
>changed history because of the First Law?  Is Asimov really going
>to tie everything he ever wrote together in the next foundation
>book?

  Nice guess but no dice. The 111,394 that Noyes lived in existed in
a completely different reality than Gaia did. They could not be the
same person (thing?).

  Isaac does seem to be tying all of his works together into a
single unified story.  The next episode will probably take us to
Earth to find out what has happened there since Pebble in the Sky. I
expect that we will find out that Noyes was behind sending Joseph
Schwartz into the future (could he have been sent to the new
111,394?). She arrived on earth 17 years before he left and having
viewed future realities could have known that he was crucial to
developing a galactic empire.

  John Eaton
  !hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 21:32:48-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: PLUTERDAY

> From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA  (Chris Miller)
> Alan Taylor's note jogged my memory of a book I read somewhere
> back in the dim recesses of my youth: it was called WHERE WERE YOU
> LAST PLUTERDAY?  I'm afraid I don't remember the author,
> although I do remember that he was European and that the boohad
> been translated.  Maybe even eastern European, but that's a long
> shot.  Another, even longer, shot says that the book was published
> by dell sometime pre-1975.

Close, very close. WHERE WERE YOU LAST PLUTERDAY? is by Paul Van
Herck, and was published by DAW in 1973. I'm afraid that I don't
have a reference for the translator (Van Herck is Belgian), as my
copy is packed away.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 12:09:06 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Life Probe author identified

> From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeff Smith)
> There is a really good story dealing with artificial intellegence,
> man's first contact with extra-terrestrial intellegence, and FTL
> travel, called "Life Probe". This book is really great, and the
> author has written more, but I can't seem to remember his name.

The book is by Michael McCollum.  I wholeheartedly second the above
recommendation.  The author also wrote a very good set of
parallel-universe stories which were collected and expanded in the
book _A_Greater_Infinity_.  I've been waiting for a sequel to the
latter for a while now; other than the two books and one other short
story written with his wife, he hasn't done anything else that I
know of.
                         marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 85 17:11 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Arts in Space

>And while we're on the subject, where in the real **HARD SCIENCE**
>stories is music, or any of the arts?

The only example that comes to mind is a book by Spider Robinson
titled STARDANCE.  (Though I question whether it really qualifies as
--hard science--) I remember this being a novel about a group who
open a dance studio in an orbiting space station (think of them
possibilities!!) and then, just ever so incidentally, happen to be
on hand when Earth needs ambassadors to converse with a spaceship
full of aliens who just happen to "speak" via dance.  In spite of my
sarcasm, I remember being surprised that the book made it both as
good science fiction and as accurate dance depiction.  It had many
beautiful descriptive passages in it, to boot.

Chris Miller (Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 20:10:38 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Welcome, Chaos

                   ******Continued Spoiler******

>>Rob MacLachlan writes: I also find the nature of the cure rather
>>unlikely.  It is a substance fortuitously discovered . . . which
>>magically revamps your immune system.  The ways that your body can
>>fail are many and complex.  I doubt that any one substance, let
>>alone a natural one, will be the answer to "immortality".  If
>>substantial life prolongation is obtained, it will probably be
>>through a large collection of carefully designed treatments.

>Carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc responds: The source of the substance
>was the HeLa strain of human cancer Tcells.

Sorry to be so slow, but I just gotta say something about this.
This points up one of the reasons why English profs simply shouldn't
try to write "hard" SF.

HeLa cells are the living remnants of a uterine cancer which grew in
the unfortunate Henrietta Lacks, of Washington, DC, in the 1950s
(*not* a typo).  The cells are of a single type, and bear no
relationship whatsoever to T-cells.  T-cell cancers are *quite*
different, and increasingly well characterized.  HeLa cells are
horribly hard to kill, and it has been found in more than one lab
that they invaded other cultures and displaced them.  This does
*not* mean, however, that they are appropriate as a probable (or
even plausible) source of immortality [virulence is another thing
entirely].  Neither are they appropriate as *The Cells That Ate the
Chicago*, or some other asinine horror story.

There are more plausible approaches to immortality stories.  I can
think of a quite old novella by Poul Anderson which dealt with it
(peripherally) well--and poignantly, to boot.  There is also a
pretty good novel by Niven on the subject.  Both titles escape me at
the moment.

Nor do I object to trashy treatments which don't pretend to be
scientific.  I merely avoid them.  But Wilhelm is bright enough that
she should know better than to try to get specific about science,
when she doesn't know any!!

       Paula%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multicx.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Ignore my last message, if not too late
Date: 17 Jul 85 02:56:55 GMT

>from Gern:
>I incorrectly tried to correct Mark Leeper's posting about the
>special effects to Star Wars.  John Dykstra did indeed do the
>effects to Star Wars and not a pre-ILM as I had thought.

Dykstra and ILM both worked on the effects of the first STAR WARS.
ILM was formed from people who worked on STAR WARS.  Whether Dykstra
was a part of ILM at that time and then left I don't know.  But you
were right in thinking ILM did the effects, and I am fairly sure one
of the techniques they used was Dykstraflex which I remember was
invented for the film.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Liking BACK TO THE FUTURE (while disliking GOONIES!)
Date: 17 Jul 85 03:51:00 GMT

>Some of BTTF drawbacks: almost every SF idea in it was recycled in
>SF books 10000 times at least.

There are all kinds of constraints on films that are not on books.
It is a lot more expensive to create a film than a book and it has
to appeal to a lot more people than does a book.  With this in mind,
science fiction on the screen all too often has to be more primitive
than science fiction in a book.  That is why science fiction films
are so much behind the literature.  Rare is the film that can really
compete with a book for ideas.  When you have a kid and he is taking
his first steps, are you going to sneer and say, "So what, lot's of
people can walk!"

How many ideas from STAR WARS were new and perceptive.  I only
noticed one, that that was sort of a technical necessity.  [So as
not to break the flow, I explain it at the end of this article.]

>Some of the more original ideas lack credibility (hitting 88 miles
>an hour at exactly proper point, at exactly right moment????!!!!!).

One point for you.  That was absurd.

>Also, HOW WOULD PLUTONIUM GENERATE 1000000000000 watt?  Did
>they have nuclear explosion every  time?

As a viewer I find that a lot more credible than that a Goonie can
break his fall and save his life with some plastic teeth on the end
of a spring from his belt.  I know that that is stupidly
implausible.  I don't know that generating power directly from
plutonium is stupidly implausible.  It is unlikely with our current
technology, but clearly Lloyd played a rogue scientist who took
technology in different directions.  I don't know any theoretical
reason why it is impossible.  If you place the two ideas side by
side, frankly I could much more believe BTTF idea.

>Anyway, disregarding those things I would say that the film
>provides same sort of entertainment as Goonies - at slightly lower
>quality.

Frankly, the toilet plumbing scenes of GOONIES seemed to me to be
much lower than anything in BTTF.  Just about the whole film was, to
my mind.  BTTF's humor was on a higher level and funnier.  Jokes
like calling the hero "Calvin" take more thought than shooting
someone off a toilet, they also take fewer special effects, and they
make a much more interesting point about the hazards of time travel.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

[The idea in STAR WARS?  If I speak to a Frenchman either I speak
French or he speaks English.  That is not the most easy way to do
things because it is easier to learn to understand a language than
to speak it.  If I were holding the conversation with an alien, it
might be impossible to speak his language at all.  In STAR WARS all
conversions between mutual aliens were conducted with each side
speaking his own language and only understanding the alien language.
That is certainly what would have to be done in an intergalactic
civilization, but the idea appeared first in STAR WARS to the best
of my knowledge and it wouldn't really have seemed right the other
way.]

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Killing Heroes
Date: 12 Jul 85 13:56:28 GMT

This is quite common in Japanese TV.  So are limited series that run
only a few (sometimes less than a dozen) shows.  Then again,...I've
a fondness for the old "hero always wins" series.  They may be
childish, but they gave me a small percentage of optimism to cling
to in real life difficulties.  (It's hard to fight on when all
you've got is stoic resignation to your doom.  The Norse may have
managed it, but I can't.)

I once ran a storytelling roleplaying game based on a TV show.  I
told the players, "Your characters have script immunity.  You can
drop one another down bottomless pits but you CAN NOT kill each
other, because there'll be another show next week."  We got a fair
amount of suspense anyway.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Jul 85 07:56:18-MDT
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA-CAD.ARPA>
Subject: Blake's Seven

  There are fans of Blake's Seven in the U.S. and they have just
recently held Scorpio 3, a Blake's Seven convention in Chicago
during the first weekend in July.  Guests were Gareth Thomas
(Blake), Sally Knyvette (Jenna), Brian Croucher (second season
Travis) and Sheelagh Wells (makeup artist, Mrs. Gareth Thomas).

  Last year in Chicago, Scorpio 2 had as guests Paul Darrow (Avon),
Michael Keating (Villa), Brian Croucher (second season Travis) and
Terry Nation (Creator of Blake's Seven).

  There will be a Scorpio 4 sometime in August of 1986 in Chicago.
The above named people have promised to come to Scorpio 4, barring
any professional committments.  Scorpio is the name of both the
Blake's Seven club and convention.  For further information write to

        Scorpio
        4064 Appleby Lane
        Richton Park, Ill. 60471

  Blake's Seven will be seen in the U.S. starting this fall.  Some
of the stations who will be showing them are

        Santa Fe, N.M.    ch. 2    local commercial station
        New Hampshire     ch. ?    PBS station
        San Jose, Calif.  ch. ?    PBS station
        Bellingham, Wash. ch. 12   ?

  There are other stations who will be showing them, but my friend
couldn't recall the rest of the list.  It may be showing in
Philadelphia, but it hasn't been confirmed yet.  Blake's Seven was
about 56 minutes long in England.  The PBS stations will run them
uncut, but the others will probably be cut down to fit in all those
commercials.

Michi Wada
Sandia National Laboratories
Albuquerque, N.M.

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: FTL Travel
Date: 15 Jul 85 19:43:59 GMT

A little relativity theory: we begin with the basic law of physics
F=ma.  What this says is that Force is proportional to acceleration
(provided the mass of the accelerating body remains constant).  Now
one way of interpreting special relativity says that F=ma is ONLY
true for velocities that are small in comparison to the speed of
light.  When you get really fast, the law breaks down.  You need a
lot more force to get the same amount of acceleration once you get
going fast enough.  The faster you're going, the more force you need
to get even a little increase in speed.  Finally, it takes an
infinite amount of force to push something past the speed of light.

All this means is that you can't just put a big rocket engine on
your space-ship and propel it to faster-than-light speeds.  Somehow
or other, you have to "get out of the game"; warp drives, for
example, bop out of normal space into a different sort of
environment and bop back into normal space somewhere else,
by-passing the normal space in between.  Another approach is to
diminish the mass of your ship in some currently unknown way, to
compensate for the diminishing return you're getting from the force
you apply.

Tachyons get around the problem by _starting_out_ going faster than
the speed of light.  Since they're already past the boundary, you
don't run into the infinite force problem, so they can happily do
whatever they want.
                                Jim Gardner
                                University of Waterloo

P.S. Physicists are greatly disquieted by the suggestion that F=ma
could ever be untrue.  Therefore they usually keep the equation and
redefine the "m" (mass) so that the equation still works at high
speeds.  They say that a moving particle has a higher mass than a
particle at rest; as a particle moves faster and faster, its mass
increases, until at the speed of light, its mass is infinite, which
is it would take infinite force to increase the particle's speed.
Of course, then the physicists have to explain why motion adds to a
particle's mass.  Their explanation is that the kinetic energy of
the particle is as good as mass, and indeed, energy is the same as
mass for the purposes of relativity.  Put in equation form, this is
E=m.  And if you use archaic units of measurement, it turns out that
you need a conversion factor in this equation, so you get E=mc**2.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 85 1348-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #272
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 272

Today's Topics:

          Books - Robert Adams & Brust & McQuay & Schmidt,
          Films - Dykstra & James Bond (2 msgs),
          Music - Music and SF (5 msgs),
          Television - Star Trek (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85  6:15:57 EDT
From: "John f. Hardesty" <jhardest@bbncct.ARPA>
Subject: Robert Adams Readers

To whom it may concern,

        Does anybody out there read Robert Adams `Horseclans`
series?  If so, respond to me at jhardest@bbncct.arpa

                                        John Hardesty

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Review: Yendi
Date: 16 Jul 85 15:41:13 GMT

        Before I give you the review I'd like to relate a short
story to you all.  Here I am, I post an article to the net asking
for information about publishing a novel.  Weeks later, a reply
comes back and gives me some answers.  I write back with a few more
questions and get a few more answers.  Then I notice who I'm talking
with.  My eyes jump from our correspondence to the guest list of
Archon.  Yes.  I have been talking to Steve.

        After sufficient time to recover I try to place the author
with his work, but I'm unable to place a name.  In desperation I run
over to a bookstore on the way to the convention and look up his
books.  Surprise #2 !  He's the one who wrote Jhereg, one of THE
BEST swords & sorcery (in there with such style greats as Leiber and
Le Sprague de Camp) I have most recently read.  The reason I
couldn't place it is because I had borrowed this book from a friend.

        Anyway, I bought the sequel, Yendi, and I'd like to spark
the interest of fantasy fans out here.

                               REVIEW

        Steve has created his own world.  The current time period is
about eight human generations after what is referred to as the
Interregenum, which I suppose is some kind of Apocolyptic event
which is referred to and sketchily detailed.  Humans are called
Easterners.  The current ruling class is some superior humanoids
called Dragaerians.  There are a number of noble houses, each with a
colorful background and certain specific aspects which separate the
families.  These "people", with a few exceptions do not like to
associate with the plebian Easterners.

        The main character is Vladimir Taltos (pronounced Taltosh).
He is an Easterner whose father has bought a title, Baronet, in the
House Jhereg, a semi-despised noble house among the Dragaerians.  He
was raised by the Easterners but his father insisted on Dragaerian
training too.  He is an Assasin.  He is a witch.  He can perform
minor sorceries.  But primarily he is a Boss, the person who runs
and controls an area of a Lankmahr like city.

        All the best elements of adult fantasy are here.  You've got
the blood, the weaponry and fighting descriptions etc.  You've got
magic, in terms of sorcerers, witches and artifacts.  You've got
elder power, in terms of Chaos (this is primarily noted in Jhereg).
Next you've got humor.  Steve has defined some very witty traits in
his characters, which often lead to a good smirk, grin, laugh or
what have you.  Characters have a well formed background but this is
developed painlessly along the course of the story.  You really get
to know them through the eyes of Vladimir and you laugh, hurt, and
kill when he does.

        In both these books, besides being entertained by the very
well described scenes of fighting, magic, etc. there has been some
extremely intricate major plot behind the scenes.  This can be very
enjoyable since you become so distracted with things at hand- it's
almost impossible to anticipate the ending.  Now the hints are all
over for those who want to break the mystery, but this is such easy
reading that you'll want to finish rather than stop and figure it
out.  I personally consumed weeks and months of Steve's labor in one
night (sorry buddy).

        Chronologically, Yendi is placed in between the background
that we learn in Jhereg and the Major Plot in Jhereg.  It is not
really neccesary to read Jhereg first, but it helps.

        If all this is not enough for you I'll add this.  Zelazny
personally endorses these works.  He gives the longest "I recommend
this" to Yendi that I've seen.

        I recommend this book to those who like:

        1) general swords & sorcery like Leiber, de Camp, etc.
        2) fighting and blood
        3) magic
        4) thievery (Jhereg)
        5) elder magic (Jhereg)

The titles again in order are: Jhereg and Yendi.

                        Moshe Eliovson
                        {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 00:35:14-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Mike McQuay

> From: Operator <ops@ncsc>     (Jessie@ncsc)
>    _Escape_From_New_York was made into a movie starring a scroungy
> Kurt Russell which managed to retain some of the book's
> atmosphere.

Sorry, but you've got it backwards. McQuay's book is a novelization
of the film, not 'tother way around.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 21:23:15-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SINS OF THE FATHERS

> From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RUTGERS.ARPA>
> I believe the story about the aliens fleeing the galaxy with their
> planets and all (stopping along the way to gather up the Earth),
> is called "The Sins of the Fathers" by Stanley Schmidt.  I
> remember it being serialized in Analog and I remember that
> gorgeous cover by Kelly Freas, but I am not certain about the
> title/author (I'm in Pittsburgh now and all my books are in NJ).

You are correct on both counts. It was serialized in ANALOG Nov-Jan,
1973-4. It was published in book form by Berkley in 1976. There was
a sequel called LIFEBOAT EARTH, also published by Berkley (in 1978).
This sequel originally appeared as a series of novelettes in ANALOG:

"A Thrust of Greatness" (Jun 1976)
"Caesar Clark"          (Jul 1977)
"Pinocchio"             (Sep 1977)
"Dark Age"              (Dec 1977)
"The Promised Land"     (Jan 1978)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 09:12:58-PDT
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (DTN264-5090)
Subject: A Correction

> Also, Trumbull, NOT Dykstra, did the special FX for Star Trek- The
> Motion Picture.  Since Industrial Light & Magic has done both
> STII-TWOK and STIII-TSFS, I assume Dykstra was involved in those.

Both Trumbull AND Dykstra were brought in by Paramount to do the
effects work on ST:TMP after they fired Robert Able Assoc.  Trumbull
was primarily responsible for the more ethereal effects like the
V'ger cloud.  Dykstra's people did most of the model work, like the
Enterprise and the Vulcan ships.  A lot of this had been started by
the model shop at Magicam.  Paramount originally wanted to use the
Magicam process in the film.  Able was probably responsible for
botching that deal too.  Syd Mead designed the V'ger entity, which
Dykstra then built and shot.  The work was very quickly thrown
together....and at times it shows.  The project was already far
behind schedule, and had to be delivered to the theatres by the
promised release date.

I believe that all Able produced for the film was the 'smearing'
effect of the 'wormhole' effect.  Nothing else was usable, or shot
at all.

Looking carefully at the film, there are two very distinct styles to
the execution of the effects.  Had they had more time, pehaps
Trumbull and Dykstra could have brought them a little closer.

Randy Dearborn
Digital Media Services
Merrimack, NH

(Facts gleaned from "Special Effects: Creating Movie Magic")

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 09:15:23-PDT
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (DTN264-5090)
Subject: More Bond Trivia

There are two versions of "Moonraker."  Several early prints have a
slightly different sound track.  In the scene where Bond, while in
Venice, punches a musical code into a combination lock, he
originally played "Nobody Does it Better."  Later, this was changed
to the five famous notes from "Close Encounters."

Either way, the scene worked pretty well, even though the number of
notes on the track, didn't exactly fit the filmed footage.  I think
that the earlier version fits better with Bond's reaction shot, when
he first hears the combination.  The change to the CE3K music, to me
was a cheap sell-out to capitalize on the popularity of another big
name film.  (Not unlike the ripped off line in Mad Max Beyond
Thunderdome, from Buckeroo Banzai "Wherever you go, that's where you
are.)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 85  22:38 EDT (Wed)
From: Mijjil <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Bond trivia question

okay, congrats to those who new that Blofeld is Ernst Stavro
Blofeld.  Part 2 - in the opening of "Diamonds Are Forever", which
is one of the places you get to hear Blofeld's full name, James
asks:

"Where is Ernst Stavro Blofeld?"

He asks this while beating up someone, naturally.

So, where WAS Ernst Stavro Blofeld?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: Mon 15 Jul 85 09:13:16-EDT
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: Music & SF

The really cool tunes I am currently listening to on my Sony as I do
my terminal work is Magnetic Fields by Jean Michael Jarre.  I
studied to it at college.  He has several albums out: Magnetic
Fields, Equinox, Zoo Look, Oxygene (sic).  The music is complex,
pure of tone, and completely synthesized, but does not sound or feel
synthesized at all.

To tie this in with SF: The background music of most of The
Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy radio programs is that from the
Oxygene album.

If you get a chance, check them out.  I think Magnetic Fields is the
best.

Cheers,
Gern

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 15 Jul 1985 11:10:26-PDT
From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)
Subject: Science Fiction in music

Alan Grieg restarted a discussion on Science Fiction in Music a few
issues ago.  Those of us who have been reading SFL for several years
may recall this coming up before, but I'm sure there's a large
turnover in the readership, so why not discuss it again.

Anyway, Alan started a list of example songs, and included "David
Bowie: Major Tom".  Frequent and natural mistake - the Bowie tune
that nearly everyone calls "Major Tom" is actually titled "Space
Oddity".

Still, I'd like to dredge up a point from the earlier discussion -
please try to distinguish those songs which truly have a science
fiction theme (of which "Space Oddity" is certainly an example) from
those with "spacey" sounding titles.
                                Steve Lionel

P.S.  Could we save a few megabytes of disk space by cutting down on
the >>>>>>>>>> quotes in this digest?  Don't be lazy - learn how to
paraphrase!  It really gets ridiculous to see FOUR levels of > in a
message!

------------------------------

From: druri!clive@topaz.arpa (StewardCN)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 15 Jul 85 21:01:34 GMT

Ursula Le Guin has "An die Musik" in her short story collection, The
Wind's Twelve Quarters.  It's presumably not sf.

Orson Scott Card did write the novel Songmaster (?title). I also
really liked his short story (title forgotten) about Sugar, the
prodigy who society tried to isolate so that his music wouldn't be
corrupted by hearing another's, and later....

Spider Robinson did one about a rock singer wired for empathy.

Samuel R. Delaney I believe used music in one of his short novels;
the creature who would appear as a green archetypic figure, who told
his story in folk-song fragments (poorly recalled).  Also find
something of musical sense in the premise and characters of
Babel-17, nominally more about poetics/linguistics.

And I don't think I have much time for sf or short stories.  Must
read more of both than I think.

------------------------------

From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@topaz.arpa (Cavewoman)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 16 Jul 85 21:29:34 GMT

> From: clive@druri.UUCP (StewardCN)
> Ursula Le Guin has "An die Musik" in her short story collection,
> The Wind's Twelve Quarters.  It's presumably not sf.

It's not.  It's also in _Orsinian Tales_, not _WTQ_, if memory
serves.

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1
x9.xes%UChicago.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 20:37 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Science Fiction Music, sometimes known as filk

        Regarding Alan Grieg's query, and the responses that
followed, on SF in (popular, mostly) Music, I'd like to say a few
words about SF music, sometimes/commonly known as "filk".
        Some of the best writers/performers of this genre are Leslie
Fish, Julia Ecklar, Juanita Coulson, Joey Shoji, Clif Flynt & Mary
Ellen Wessels, the LA Filkharmonics (In space no one can hear you
sing)... the list is VERY LONG.  They sing about characters in books
& stories, their own yearnings for space, the space program and its
history (Minus Ten and Counting), and tell original stories in song.
Some of the melodies are based on those in and out of the public
domain, as have the folk process and Tom Lehrer and Alan Sherman
done for years, some of the melodies are original.  Some writers can
sing, others shouldn't, some singers can't write, same as in music
in general.  I've written a few songs myself--it's not hard, even if
I can't read music and don't have an instrument other than voice.
        There are publications tied in with this kind of music,
there are conventions (at most sf cons there is space on the program
for filking), there are regular meetings of filkers, and there are
publishers of this kind of music.  One of them is Off-Centaur
Publications, P.O. Box 424, El Cerrrito CA (don't have the zip
memorized).  They carry more than filk, they carry a lot of folk,
because sometimes the two entertwine.  They have a catalog, send
them a business-size SASE and a note and they'll send it to you.

Marina Fournier
Xerox Artifical Intelligence Systems
Pasadena, CA
<fournier.pasa@Xerox>

------------------------------

From: friedman@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: Re: Shapechangers in ST/Space 1999
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:23:00 GMT

> About the Suire of Gothos: He did NOT have outside power coming
> in.

But he DID need power from outside himself.  You forget the scene in
which Kirk temporarily thwarted the Squire by zapping the machines
behind the mirror in his drawing room.  He was out of business until
he repaired them (during the commercial :-) ).

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 08:06:56-PDT
From: wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jack Wickwire)
Subject: ST/Doomsday Machine

This is being forwarded through me to SF-LOVERS.  All responses sent
to me will be forwarded to the author.

The "Star Trek" episode "The Doomsday Machine" was not written by
Fred Saberhagen, but by Norman Spinrad.  This always struck me as
rather odd, since the episode is not at all in his style, insofar as
I am familiar with it.  But all reliable sources, including the
credits for the episode itself, say he wrote it.

PDDB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jul 85 1418-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #273
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 273

Today's Topics:

                   Music - SF and Music (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tellab3!thoth@topaz.arpa (Marcus Hall)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 15 Jul 85 22:30:47 GMT

The song by Queen is called '39.  It is on the album "A Night at the
Opera".  At least most of the words go like this:

In the year of '39, assembled here the volunteers
 In the days when the lands were few.
There the ship sailed out into the blue and sunny morn,
 Sweetest sight ever seen.

And the night followed day, and the storytellers say
 of the score brave souls inside,
Through many lonely day sailed across the milky sea,
 N're looked back, never feared, never cried

Don't you hear my call, though you're many years away,
 Don't you hear me calling you.
Write your letters in the sand for the day I take your hand
 In the land that our grandchildren knew.

In the year of '39 came a ship in from the blue.
 The volunteers came home that day.
And they bring good news of a world so newly born,
 though their hearts so heavily weigh.

For the earth is old and grey, little darling went away,
 but my love this cannot be.
Oh so many years have gone though I'm older but a year,
 your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me.

Don't you hear my call, though you're many years away,
 Don't you hear me calling you.
Write your letters in the sand for the day I take your hand
 In the land that our grandchildren knew.

Don't you hear my call, though you're many years away,
 Don't you hear me calling you.
All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand,
 For my life, still ahead, pity me.

It's a favorite of many people I know.  I didn't expect something
like this from Queen, but supposedly Brian May, I believe, who wrote
the song dabbles into astronomy.

marcus hall
..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth
   <-Note: not the return address of this article!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 08:59 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: SF in music

I'm glad to hear from other people who like music with SF overtones
to it!  I'll toss my two cents in to the growling likes of SF music:

Planet P - Planet P Every song on this album has SF overtones to it
    - not mention I think it's a great album!
Styx - the song "Come Sail Away" plus their entire Mr. Roboto album
    (I didn't really like Roboto that much, but it is SF).

Hawkwind - Just about all of their songs have some form of SF theme
     to them.
Kansas had quite a few songs with SF or fantasy overtones to them
    (primarily these came from their first 5 albums - which I also
    thought were their best ones).

Rush - Every album I've ever listened to by Rush has some SF themed
    song and (as someone mentioned before) 2112 is entirely SF.

I'm sure there are more that I know of but can't think of right now.
I'll check my album collection and post any new discoveries if I
find them!

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: skeoch@troa01.DEC
Subject: Re: SF with musical themes
Date: 16 Jul 85 23:04:12 GMT

I have a couple of thoughts:

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story (possibly found in "Tales from
the White Hart") in which a guy uses a computer to analyze the most
successful advertising jingles, and then design the perfect one.
The perfect tune drives him insane...

Somebody wrote about a spacehand who was blinded in an engine-room
accident, and becomes a hobo-minstrel whose songs become famous
throughout the system.  Could it have been "Green Hills of Earth" ?

In a related area, Spider Robinson's "Stardance" is an unusual
combination of dance and science fiction.  Some of his Callahan's
Saloon stories have music-related plots, too.

I'd like to know if anybody can confirm the hobo-minstrel story -
was I even close?

Ian Skeoch
...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-troa01!skeoch

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: SF with musical themes
Date: 17 Jul 85 01:40:45 GMT

>Somebody wrote about a spacehand who was blinded in an engine-room
>accident, and becomes a hobo-minstrel whose songs become famous
>throughout the system.  Could it have been "Green Hills of Earth" ?

Yes -- the author was Heinlein.

An interesting point in fact following fiction: Selections of
Heinlein's poetry from that story have frequently flown on space
missions.  We didn't have a poet of the spaceways when the story was
written, but because of it, we do now.

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: SF in Music
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:23:17 GMT

I got in to this in the middle, so if I mention something that's
already been mentioned, don't [b,f]lame me (one week of vacation,
374 aticles in sf-lovers alone, who could resist the temptations of
the 'c' key...)

Anyway, how about:

"Nice, Nice, Very Nice" by Ambrosia -- a nice setting to music (with
additional lyrics) of the 53rd Calypso of Bokonon (from Cat's Cradle
by Vonnegut.)

The whole first side of the very first Jefferson Starship album,
"Blows Against the Empire."

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 16 Jul 85 23:10:02 GMT

I haven't seen anyone mention this one yet.  What about the Mule and
his multi-sense instrument in the Foundation series?  That would
seem to qualify as music in SF.

Spider Robinson's _Stardancer_ (?) also comes to mind.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 85 16:00:41 GMT
From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM
Subject: Music in SF

>I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>written SF in which music played a dominant theme?

One story that I haven't seen mentioned is:
  Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?)

That particular story struck a...a...(no, I will not make an obvious
pun here!!)...anyway, I really liked it.  Anyone have any comments
about it?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1985 09:30-PDT
From: king@Kestrel.ARPA
Subject: music important in SF novellas?

> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
> written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such might
> be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel,
> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

>Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

One example that comes to mind, in which music is at least
moderately important, is Windhaven (author forgotten).

                  ******  SPOILER WARNING  ******

The Windhaven society lives on a planet with a large number of small
islands, and with sufficient steady wind to make high-tech hang
gliders a satisfactory but somewhat hazardous means of
transportation of people (and of messages via people).  The society
was seeded by a crashed solar-sail starship, whose sail was cut up
to make the virtually indestructible, but losable at sea, gliders.

Fliers wield considerable power, but singers also wield considerable
power, there being few other forms of entertainment.  Important
protagonists include a person who wants to be a singer but who is
required by society's rules to become a flier, and other singers,
acting as propogandists at various junctures and lending color

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 85 09:35:49 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Music in SF Stories
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

An excellent sf story with music as a dominant theme:

"Gotta Sing, Gotta Dance" by John Varley.

This story concerns (1) companies that buy musical compositions (and
other abstract artistic works) created by astronauts who spend years
alone; and (2) a synthesizer that plugs into a human and uses body
position and mental attitude to control the sound it creates.

A really, really good story.  It's in "The Barbie Murders" / "Picnic
on Nearside".
                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 12:46:11 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF and Music

> And while we're on the subject, where in the real **HARD SCIENCE**
> stories is music, or any of the arts?

Do you consider Anne McCaffrey (sp?) "hard science"?  "Hard science
fiction"?  Well, anyway, the arts certainly played an important part
in her dragonrider trilogy, and even more so in her harper hall
trilogy.  The Masterharper was a very important person on Pern -- he
and his underlings were the keepers of tradition and the individuals
that inspired honor in the people of Pern.

And (VERY mild SPOLIER HERE...) one of the major problems that Pern
had was a lack of communication between generations because of a
lack of written history.

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

From: ihu1e!mjv@topaz.arpa (Vlach)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 17 Jul 85 18:25:24 GMT

> Kraftwerk: Computerworld

Everything I've ever seen by them was tech-related.  "Radioactivity"
is really good (for its time (~1975), it was amazing).

"Man Machine" is in a similar vein to "Computerworld", and I would
recommend all SF types to get ahold of these two albums.

Basically they have good songs and also make lots of great noises
that make one imagine robots and etc.

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: SF Music: Hawkwind and FM
Date: 17 Jul 85 15:21:11 GMT

The DEFINITIVE SF music group is Hawkwind!  (Well actually "Sci-Fi"
would be more accurate -- their lyrics are very "pulpy", but it's
good pulp!) I have 13 non-compilation studio albums by them, and
they have more.  Probably about 95% of their songs are SF related.
Michael Morcock (the author) every now and then appears as a band
member and writes lyrics for them.  Their music is heavy underground
British psychedelia (though for little while they did some punky and
some new-wavish stuff).  They have had since the early seventies a
large and dedicated cult following in England.

Another group that does a lot of SF stuff is FM, a Canadian band.
It included at one time Nash The Slash, who is somewhat known as a
solo artist (and who, by the way, is excellent).  They are sometimes
progressive rock and sometimes just good rock.  Their best album is
"Black Noise" and is entirely SF.  They even have a song (on
"Surveillance") about Sci-Fi rock called "Rocket-Roll".  It is one
of their sillier songs:

   Imagination is my closest friend
   I can turn it on and I am free
   The sights and sound that have no boundary
   This is the adventure that I need
   Sci-Fi Rock, Rocket Roll

Here are a bunch of Hawkwind lyrics.  These are from "Robot":

   You're a "Good Morning" machine
   You're a "How are you?" device
   ...
   Robot, Robot
   You are a robot, Robot
   You'd hold the whole world in your metal claws
   If it wasn't for The Three Laws of Robotics
   ...
   I am only a robot
   I am your slave
   I cannot harm you
   I can only obey
   The Three Laws

"Spirit of the Age" from "Quark Strangeness and Charm":

   I would have liked you to have deep frozen too
   And waiting still as fresh in your flesh
   For my return to Earth
   But your father refused to sign the forms to freeze you
   Let's see, you'd be about sixty now
   And long dead by the time I return to Earth
   My time held dreams were full of you
   As you were when I left: still under-age
   Your android replica is playing up again
   It's no joke
   When she comes she moans another's name
   ...

"Sonic Attack" from "Space Ritual":

   In case of sonic attack on your district, follow these rules:
   If you are making love, it is imperative to bring all bodies to
   orgasm simultaneously.
   Do not waste time blocking your ears.
   Do not waste time seeking a sound-proof shelter.
   Try to get as far away from the sonic source as possible.

   Do not panic.  Do not panic.

   Use your wheels -- it is what they are for.
   Small babies may be placed in the special cocoons and if
   possible should be left in shelters.
   Do not attempt to use your own limbs.
   If no wheels are available, metal, not organic, limbs should be
   employed whenever possible.

   Remember, in the case of sonic attack, survival means every man
   for himself.  Himself.

   Statistically, more people survive if they think only of
   themselves.  Only themselves.

   Do not attempt to rescue friends, relatives, loved-ones.
   You have only a few seconds to escape.
   Use those seconds sensibly, or YOU WILL INEVITABLY DIE.

   Do not panic.  Do not panic.
   Think only of yourself.  Only yourself.
   Think only of yourself.  Only yourself.

   These are the first signs of sonic attack:
   You will notice small objects, such as ornaments, oscillating.
   You will notice vibrations in your diaphram.
   YOU WILL HEAR A DISTANT HISSING IN YOUR EARS.
   YOU WILL FEEL DIZZY.
   YOU WILL FEEL THE NEED TO VOMIT.
   THERE WILL BE BLEEDING FROM ORIFICES.
   THERE WILL BE AN ACHE IN THE PELVIC REGION.
   You may be subject to fits of histerical shouting --
       or even laughter.
   These are all signs of iminent sonic destruction.

   Your only protection is flight.
   If you are less than ten years old,
   remain in the shelters and use your cacoon.

   Remember, you can help no-one else.  No-one else.
   You can help no-one else.  No-one else.
   Do not panic.  Do not panic.
   Do not panic.  Do not panic.
   Think only of yourself.  Only yourself.
   Think only of yourself.  Only yourself.
   Think only of yourself.  Only yourself.
   Think only of yourself.

Great stuff, huh?

-Doug Alan
  nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 13:57 PST
From: Gary Palmer <Gary-Palmer%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: SF and Music

On the subject of SF in music, how about Ambrosia (album of same
name) the song "Time Waits for No-One".  There are other songs on
that album too, along with a beautiful rendition of that nonsense
poem (I don't remember it's title) that starts "'Twas brillig and
the slithy todes di gyre and gymble in the wake...".  I believe this
was from Carrols "Alice in Wonderland".

Now I also wonder if people out there found in Netland have found
popular authors writing lyrics for songs such as Kurt Vonegut Jr.
writing the lyrics to "Nice, Nice, very Nice" on the same album by
Ambrosia.  In my 500+ albums, I can't seem to find any other writers
doing the lyrics.

Gary Palmer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jul 85 1644-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #274
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 274

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Laumer (2 msgs),
                      Films - Dead Films & Mad Max,
                      Music - SF and Music (2 msgs),
                      Television - Space: 1999 & Star Trek,
                      Miscellaneous - Spoilers & FTL Travel &
                              Autographs & Meeting Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 11:21:50-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Laumer Repackaging Sucks!

I would like to second the recommendation of "Nine by Laumer" and
mention that the current reissues of his work are grotesque
repackaging jobs unworthy of the his writing.  Beware of
"Chresthomathy," which consists of short chunks of his novels and a
few (heavily reprinted) short stories.  Look out for the novel
backed by "No Shipboots in Fairlyland," which has a deceptive
copyright date (minor rewrite).  In general, go for quality reissues
of older works or used books (send him $.25 each for royalties if
you feel guilty).  Ignore his more recent books.

In general, this repackaging craze has got to stop.  First, all the
damn TOR reissues of Poul Anderson stuff with snappy and misleading
titles.  Now, Baen is doing it with Laumer.  It may be great for the
authors (more advances) but it annoys the hell out of a faithful fan
like myself.
                        wz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 21:15 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Keith Laumer

Dave Pratt writes:
>"End as a Hero" bears a copyright date of 1985.  The overleaf does
>not state (as is usually customary) that a portion of the story
>appeared in different form quite some time ago.  "End as a Hero"
>was originally published as a short story in Galaxy Magazine
>(copyright date 1963).  The version now in the stores consists of
>the original short story with minor modifications, plus 94 pages of
>new lead-in and about 10 pages of new wrap-up.  The seams between
>the old and new material show... boy, do they show.

The same thing is true of the latest Retief "novel."  It's about
half an old short story, with additional material grafted on in
ways that make even less sense than a framing story.  The short was
pretty good, too.

>In a posting to this meeting that I read this week, someone (sorry,
>I'm too lazy to dig back and find out who) asked "What has happened
>to Laumer recently?" or some such.  I wish I knew, and that it
>hadn't happened.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Laumer had a stroke some
time ago.  Can anyone confirm (or deny) this?  (This may or may not
have anything to do with his writing falling apart, tho.  Other
writers have managed to lose all skill without medical aid.)

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 21:44:43-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: EXTRACT

> From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis)
> That movie sounds pretty bad -- but I wanted to quickly add that
> there will be Yet Another Dead Movie coming out soon that looks
> like a pretty funny satire of the whole Dead scene.
>
> It's called _Return_of_the_Dead_ and (I think) includes Dan
> Obannon among the people who put it together.

There's an interesting story behind this. When George Romero and
John Russo (director and writer, respectively, of NIGHT OF THE
LIVING DEAD) decided to do a sequel, they couldn't see eye to eye on
how to go with it. Romero ended up filming his idea as DAWN OF THE
DEAD. Russo, who had a couple of horror novels under his belt by
that time, wrote up *his* ideas as a novel, RETURN OF THE DEAD,
published in paperback by Dale Books (can't recall the exact year,
but I think it was 1979). There were plans to film Russo's novel,
which didn't get realized until recently. So, the original NIGHT OF
THE LIVING DEAD has two completely different direct sequels.

(BTW, I got this story from George Romero himself at a World Fantasy
Convention.)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 22:40:59 pdt
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Beyond the Thunderdome

I disagree with Peter Reiher's review of Beyond The Thunderdome.

The original Mad Max film was a very strong, emotional, highly
depressing narrative, and probably the best such film I have ever
seen.  Beyond The Thunderdome, on the other hand, is a satirical
pastiche of the last 5 years of film.  I recognized episodes almost
from Dune, Escape From New York, Star Wars, ET, the earlier Mad Max
films, Lawrence of Arabia, Of Mice and Men....  One scene I don't
yet understand has a fast, almost ludicrous cut to a full moon at
night.  Did this mean anything to anyone?

I am no cinemaphile, but I would imagine, that like Varley's Demon,
his Millenium, or some of Glen Cook's stuff, Beyond the Thunderdome
is a "stage scene".  The plot is not intended to be believable, or
to stand on its own, and to judge it on these grounds is to miss the
point.  Judge it for its dramatic and emotional effect, and for the
new ideas and questions with which you leave the theatre.

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe there aren't many fast
cars but I liked it a lot anyhow.

-s

------------------------------

From: icdoc!iwm@topaz.arpa (Ian Moor)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in music
Date: 16 Jul 85 23:29:30 GMT

One LP with at least one good SF track has to be Hawkwind's
Quark,Strangeness and Charm - the vocalist has had his girl frozen
while he is away in space: "Your android replica is playing up
again, when she comes she moans another's name".  Funny but none of
the tracks sound like other Hawkwind stuff I've heard

Ian W Moor
Department of Computing
Imperial College.
180 Queensgate
London SW7 Uk.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 16 Jul 85 18:21:23 GMT

>> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>> written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such
>> might be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel,
>> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

Well, there was a story by Arthur C Clarke, called
_The_Ultimate_Melody_ (I think).  It appeared in his collection
_Tales_From_the_White_Hart_.

BTW, did those stories by Clarke create the "tall tales in a bar"
subgenre, or did someone else do it even earlier?

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!daar@topaz.arpa (ZNAC426)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 16 Jul 85 20:00:59 GMT

>From: orstcs!richardt (richardt)
>Regarding SPACE 1999: I stomached one episode at the age of nine.
>The only reason that I watched the second half was that it gave me
>an excuse not to do something less pleasant(?), though I can no
>longer imagine what that could be (??).  I watched 10 minutes of
>another episode a few years later, on the off chance that I had
>misjudged the series.  I was totally correct in my initial
>evaluation of the show (???).  It doesn't even qualify as grade
>'B'!  I might give it an 'F' to prevent bodily injury (????).
>Speaking in time travel tenses, the show /was not/will not/is not
>worth the film it was circulated on, much les the production
>costs!!!(?????)

        These episodes you saw must have been two of the bummers.
Probably the anti-matter ones and in this case I must agree that
they are not worth the film they are on. However can you really
judge a whole series by 10 minutes of one? If I had seen S.T. the
banal motion picture before the series would I have labeled it all
as rubbish/garbage? Of course not (although the film was).  I wasn't
too turned on by the first Trek I saw which was THE ALTERNATIVE
FACTOR and thought where's the appeal in this *#!# . This says to me
that first impressions are very important but can change with time.
I am finding it very difficult to watch V now and if it wasn't for
the first few I wouldn't bother.

        What is funny is that some people insist that the show was a
disaster and 'never came close' when in fact it made money and a
second series was made, indicating that there was interest. The
rest, sadly, is history.
                                        D. or is it?

------------------------------

From: wahid@dvinci.DEC (Parwez Wahid)
Subject: Star Trek & science fiction convention
Date: 16 Jul 85 21:14:19 GMT

A science fiction media convention will be taking place on November
2-3 1985 at the Ramada Inn in East Boston off the McClellan Highway
past Logan Airport.  This convention is run by the Boston Star Trek
Association, a group that has been in the area for about twelve
years.  This year marks the ninth anniversary of their convention.
The con itself is not limited   to Star Trek, although that topic is
very much present in the programming.

This years guests are Grace Lee Whitney who played Yeoman Janice
Rand in "Star Trek".  Also appearing are Robert Englund of "V" and
Jonathon Banks of "Other World".  (Banks was also in the movie
BEVERLY HILLS COP as the henchman who killed Axel Foley's friend.)

For further information send a self addressed stamped envelope to
BSTA-BASH, P.O. BOX 1108, BOSTON MA 02103-1108.

Parwez Wahid
BRANDX::DVINCI::WAHID

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 17:40:22-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Spoilers

I'm a little behind, but on the subject of SPOILERS:

Yes, if the story is good, it is not completely spoiled no matter
how much plot is given away.  But I can only read a book (or see a
movie) for the first time ONCE, can only be completely ignorant of
what is coming up ONCE, and thank you, I don't want that one time
taken away from me.

Writing an intelligent review that doesn't give away the plot (at
least past the first few pages/scenes) requires more effort than a
simple plot summary (the reason many people don't attempt it) but is
also generally more useful in terms of telling me if I want to read
the book.  Look through your TV guide and see just how stupid the
two line plot summaries can make even the best show sound.

The best example of a non-spoiler that I ever saw was a review of a
mystery story by author X.  The reviewer commented that story Y was
flawed because the detective had to rely on a confession to prove
who did the murder.  The plot twist that the reviewer carefully
avoided giving away was that it wasn't a murder at all - it was
suicide!  and in the end, the detective locates the suicide note
that proves it.

Now, if you know the values of X and Y, don't tell anyone - that
would be a spoiler.

        Larry Seiler
        Seiler@MIT-XX

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 20:15 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: FTL Travel
Cc: nessus@MIT-EDDIE.ARPA (Doug Alan)

>From: nessus@mit-eddie (Doug Alan)
>>From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams)
>> Stories assuming ftl travel generally (implicitly) assume that
>> special relativity is wrong, that there is a preferred frame of
>> reference, which approximates our own here on Earth.  Admittedly,
>> most do this because the author does not understand special
>> relativity,

Actually they do it for the sake of the story.

>> BUT it is a consistent assumption -- just not very likely.
>One would think that the Michelson-Morley experiment fairly well
>ruled out this unlikely possibility nearly a hundred years ago!

No, all it said was that for /light/ there was no prefered frame of
reference.  One can assume that there is some frame of reference
(say, "hyperspace," altho one could just as well say "witch's
brew"*) with respect to which one can travel at arbitrarily high
velocities (using some magic device).  As long as there is /only
one/ such frame, there's no time travel.  Incidentally, this
violates the Principle of Relativity, but in a way that we can't
check without the magic device.  (E.g., in Niven's _Known_Space_
stuff, wherein the hyper-drive only works in space which is flat
enough, i.e., past Pluto.)  So it may not be terribly believable,
but it is consistent with present knowledge.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 20:15 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Autographs

        In Digest #216, the subject of autographs was raised, and
I'd like to add my two cents worth, now that I can finally grab the
time to reply.
        At a bookstore (e.g., Change of Hobbit, Dangerous Visions),
the manager/owner will often set a limit on # of books PER PASS
through the line, especially if there are long lines anticipated (at
a convention, a similar ruling may hold true). You might wish to
call ahead for info.  Sometimes the owner will make a
differentiation based on whether you have purchased from the store
at the time of the autograph party, any of the books you wish to get
signed, such as 3 without purchase, 5 with purchase.  Most
bookstores will give you a receipt upon entry to differentiate your
own books from those for sale.  I think Wendel Phillips went to CoH,
but DV also gives receipts.
        VERY SELDOM does an sf author specify that thon will only
sign the book for which the autograph party is being held (usually a
new publication).  Many authors appreciate seeing different
editions, or the breadth of your collection of thon's material.
Also, don't be afraid to talk to the author about some aspect of the
book being signed, if time permits, or to ask That Burning Question
(esp. if no one else is asking it).  Anne McCaffrey was suprised to
find her works published in France, as she was not getting royalties
for same. Larry Niven understood that many of his readers could not
afford clothbound books in terms of price and shelfspace, and said
he had ceased to be upset by the dearth of them in fannish
collections.  Roger Zelazny seemed surprised when I walked in with
my entire collection of his work, but didn't complain.
        And on a final note, let me say that Dangerous Visions
Bookstore in Sherman Oaks, Calif., will be holding an autograph
party for Norman Spinrad to celebrate the publication of CHILD OF
FORTUNE, on Saturday, August 3rd, from 2-5 pm.  Please call
818/986-6963 for the limit on books.

------------------------------

From: ttidcb!jackson@topaz.arpa (Dick Jackson)
Subject: Meeting Advanced Aliens
Date: 16 Jul 85 16:52:01 GMT

Wasn't it Fermi who asked about 40 years ago "If there are advanced
races out there in the stars, where are they?" meaning that at least
one star faring race should have explored the whole place by now and
we should have seen them. There are several theories (human
uniqueness, quarantine, etc) in answer to THE QUESTION; one that I
haven't heard is that the first aliens to master space are totally
zenophobic and when they detect industrial civilizations arising
(via radio transmission) they come and wipe them, and soon us, out.

Assuming this slightly pessimistic theory is incorrect, I find it
interesting to speculate not on what THEY would come for, but upon
what THEY would be like if considerably advanced relative to
ourselves. E.g. with "IQs" of 1000.

They would talk to us, and be bored a lot of the time in doing so I
guess.  Probably they would plan for very long-term goals . Human's
plans are generally of the order of one year (multiply or divide by
ten). Gorillas and dogs don't plan more than a few seconds ahead.
I'm assuming that THEY are ahead of us in roughly the same ratio as
we are ahead of gorillas.

Presumably they would have concerns that we could not even
comprehend, and therefore cannot now speculate about! Or can we?
Anyone care to try?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jul 85 1708-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #275
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 275

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Wilson (2 msgs),
                      Films - Explorers & Charles Gray,
                      Music - SF and Music (4 msgs),
                      Television - Blake's Seven & Star Trek &
                              Martin Landau,
                      Miscellaneous - Cuteness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Comments on Colin Wilson
Date: 17 Jul 85 03:16:16 GMT

>From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
>I suppose I'm one of the "avid fans" of Colin Wilson's works that
>Mark Leeper mentioned.  While I like his work, I don't think he's
>the greatest thing since indoor plumbing or whatever.  He has his
>flaws: he's opinionated, sexist, elitist (or, at least, he comes
>across that way in his books).

That covers my opinion.

>So, a few corrections from someone who (thinks he) knows better:
>
>Wilson and August Derleth weren't friends until AFTER Wilson wrote
>THE MIND PARASITES.  Mark was right about the "Outsider"/OUTSIDER
>connection.  Wilson wrote a book (THE STRENGTH TO DREAM: LITERATURE
>AND THE IMAGINATION), in one chapter of which he took Lovecraft to
>task for HPL's own literary failings.  Derleth read this and then
>asked Wilson if he thought he could do a better job with the
>Cthulhu Mythos.  Wilson responded with THE MIND PARASITES, which
>Derleth's Arkham House published.

That is my bad memory again.  You are right.  I went back to the
intro to MIND PARASITES and discovered I had combined the host and
the challenger into a single person.  Sorry.

>BTW, when was Kirlian photography discredited?  On what grounds?

Don't quote me.  My memory got me into trouble once already this
article, but I think that I heard the effect had something to do
with moisture or water vapor.  In any case, the effects should be
easily reproducible and hence could studied in the laboratory and I
think we would have heard if there really was anything to this sort
of spirit photography.

>Mark, I'd be interested to know what 48 books came ahead of MIND
>PARASITES in your local SF group's discussion, and why.

Well, the list is, I think, lost at this point, but it was many from
the list of most popular that showed up recently on the net.

>I consider the book to be one  of the most important

Interesting word.  Why "important?"

>(and enjoyable) I've ever read;

I certainly agree with enjoyable.  Though few enough seem to agree
with me.

>I cannot recommend Wilson to many (those "specialized tastes", I
>guess).  Certainly, those readers who prefer outright escapism or
>books sans self- critical protagonists won't like him.  But if you
>like sex, violence, magic, AND intelligent philosophy, give him a
>try.

Well said.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 00:25:21-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Comments on Colin Wilson

> From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
> Of the three works Mark mentioned, I would agree that THE SPACE
> VAMPIRES is the weakest.

Then I have some good reading ahead of me. I first read THE SPACE
VAMPIRES when it first came out in hardcover in 1976, and I enjoyed
it quite a bit.  I just re-read it after seeing LIFEFORCE and
*still* enjoyed it. I've had his other two novels for years, but
never got around to reading them. I'll try and work them into my
reading schedule sometime soon.

> While he plays fast-and-loose with the Cthulhu Mythos, he
> certainly uses it in interesting ways.  And, Mark, if you like
> stories where magic is revealed to be unexplained science, you
> should look up "The Return of the Lloigor" in TALES OF THE CTHULHU
> MYTHOS.  Again, it plays fast-and-loose, but Derleth thought it
> good enough to include in that collection (even if it does
> "reinterpret" one of his own Mythos additions, Lloigor), and it is
> in some sense a forerunner of MIND PARASITES.

Actually, THE SPACE VAMPIRES is also a "fast-and-loose" Mythos
story. The vampires called themselves the Ubbo-Sathla, which was a
contribution to the Mythos by Clark Ashton Smith. Wilson's usage
wasn't quite what Smith had in mind, but...

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: dataio!bright@topaz.arpa (Walter Bright)
Subject: Re: Explorers -- a pico review.
Date: 13 Jul 85 18:37:48 GMT

gnome@oliveb.UUCP (Gary Traveis) writes:
>From Joe Dante (Gremlins) comes a cute, fun, science fantasy about
>a three kids who are given the key to interplanetary travel.  After
>some local mischief, the three (a street-kid, a sf-type, and a
>student brainiac) head off to discover the answers to life, the
>universe, and everything from an unseen all-knowing alien race.

I thought the second half was totally stupid and dull.  By the way,
where does a 9-volt battery get the energy required to dig 5'
diameter holes in the ground? I wish some of these sci-fi movie
directors would take a basic course in physics, or hire a consultant
to help them avoid the more obvious screwups. And don't wave the
'but it's supposed to be fun' at me, I think these glaring problems
are due to laziness on the part of the director, and are not
necessary to the plot. A good sci-fi plot is one that takes ONE
assumption (such as aliens beaming technology into a kid's brain)
and logically builds on that assumption. Continually trotting out
absurdities out of convenience shows a lack of imagination on the
part of the director, and is insulting to watch.

Good sci-fi is not necessarilly preposterous, as an example take a
look at Arthur Clarke's novels (BTW, he holds a doctorate in
physics), and the novels that Niven and Pournelle collaborated on.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Helicopters...
Date: 24 Jul 85 05:22:54 GMT

From: askme%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>As for the narrator in Rocky Horror, Charles Grey, he was in some
>Bond flicks, but he didn't play Q, he was the dreaded Ernst Stravos
>Blofeld!

Gray was indeed Blofeld in DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER.  He was also in YOU
ONLY LIVE TWICE as a friendly agent who is knifed in the back
through a paper Japanese wall.  Other film credits for him were as
the villian, Mocata in the 1968 THE DEVIL RIDES OUT (aka THE DEVIL'S
BRIDE).  He has played Mycroft Holmes, I think it was in THE SEVEN
PERCENT SOLUTION.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: stuart@webstr.DEC
Subject: sci-fi in music/music in sci-fi
Date: 17 Jul 85 11:48:09 GMT

all this talk of sci fi in music prompted me to do a scan of my
album collection for things of like nature, and here's what i came
up with ... some of the examples may be stretching it a bit, but
isn't sci fi all about using your imagination?

rush: 'red barchetta', on _moving_pictures_. based on the story 'a
    nice morning drive' by richard s. foster. all about getting in a
    motorcar (forbidden in this postulated future), and getting
    chased by large what-seem-to-resemble-hovercraft for enjoying
    the ride. if anyone can point me to foster's story. i'd really
    appreciate the tip.

tubes: 'attack of the fifty foot woman', on _completion_backward_
    principle_. weren't there a few fifties movies on this topic?

blue oytser cult: 'black blade', on _extraterrestrial_live_. seems
    to me to be based on the elric series by michael moorcock.

bowie: _space_oddity_, the whole album. just about everyone's heard
    of major tom, no? and let's not forget bowie's film,
    _the_man_who_fell_to_earth_.

elo: 'mission (a world record', on _a_new_world_record_. watching
    the days go by on an insignificant street corner of an
    insignificant city on an inconsequential continent on a planet
    revolving around a sun in the backwaters of the western spiral
    arm of a rinky-dink galaxy about as far away from the action as
    one can get, and not being able to do a whole lot about it.

utopia: 'winston smith takes it on the jaw', on _oblivion_. a
    rendition of the classic _1984_. in addition, the album
    _adventures_in_utopia_ is rumored to actually be the soundtrack
    to a video production of todd rundgren and his cohorts on a
    voyage through space in search of utopia. if anyone can point me
    toward *that*, i'll give my eye teeth.

going the other way ... there are lots of stories where music palys
an important role, but there are the only ones i could find on-hand
with the central theme being music.

heinlein: 'searchlight', in _the_past_through_tomorrow_. a blind
    girl lost on the moon is found due to her perfect pitch.

saberhagen: 'starsong', in _the_berserker_wars_. a man attempts to
    retrieve his wife from a berserker, and almost succeeds bacause
    his music softens the human elements the berserker had built
    into itself.

steve stuart
internet: webstr%stuart.dec@decwrl

------------------------------

From: rsk@pucc-k (Wombat)
Subject: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 18 Jul 85 04:23:06 GMT

Spurred by the ongoing discussion in net.sf-lovers about sf
references in (mostly pop) music, I'd like to assemble a list of
such references; of course I'll post it to the net eventually.

If you've got such a reference in mind, please send it along,
including a (short) explanation of what the piece refers to; for
instance:

Led Zeppelin, "The Battle of Evermore", Led Zeppelin IV.
   -- mentions the Ringwraiths of Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings"

1. Please note that references to music in sf are something entirely
   different.
2. Credit for the idea goes to Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>.
3. I think we can take the collected works of Hawkwind as a given.

Rich Kulawiec   rsk@{pur-ee,purdue}.uucp, rsk@purdue-asc.csnet
                rsk@purdue-asc.arpa or rsk@asc.purdue.edu

------------------------------

From: sdcc3!valerie@topaz.arpa (Valerie Polichar)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 15 Jul 85 18:05:23 GMT

Many of Anne McCaffrey's works (such as _Crystal_Singer_) have music
and music-making (esp. singing) as a dominant theme.  This is at
least partially because Ms. McC was herself a student of voice for
about ten years before she became a professional writer.

Valerie Polichar         ...sdcsvax!sdcc3!valerie

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 14 Jul 85 20:29:00 GMT

freeman@spar.UUCP (Jay Freeman) writes:

>>Alan%DCT.AC.UK%DUNDEE.AC.UK@ucl-cs.ARPA writes:
>>I've seen many forms of SF discussed ... [except] ... music, either
>>its SF content or ... [influence] ... on ... SF writing.
> [A]s an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
> written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such might
> be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel,
> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

Another might be Ann Maxwell's _The_Singer_Enigma_.  The cover
blurbs do no justice to the book, which is just as well, since the
potential damage to a "mysterious origins" story from detailed
blurbs would be quite substantial.  The development of alien culture
here is excellent, including the recent impact of a new technology
of instantaneous (but limited) teleportation and its tightly
controlled ownership (reminiscent of the expected effects of the oil
cartel that recently failed).

If you can apprectiate sf mystery novels, this may be for you.
Music, per se, has little to do with the story, but singers, very
talented singers indeed, do.

Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Blake's Seven
Date: 17 Jul 85 13:57:03 GMT

> From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA-CAD.ARPA>
>   Blake's Seven will be seen in the U.S. starting this fall.  Some
> of the stations who will be showing them are
>
>         Santa Fe, N.M.  ch. 2 local commercial station
>         New Hampshire ch. ?  PBS station
>         San Jose, Calif.  ch. ?  PBS station
>         Bellingham, Wash. ch. 12 ?
>
>   There are other stations who will be showing them, but my friend
> couldn't recall the rest of the list.  It may be showing in
> Philadelphia, but it hasn't

    Will your friend be able to get a copy of the list and have you
post it on the net? I think that a lot of people would like to know
if BLAKE'S SEVEN will be shown in their area. Please try.

                                        Kenneth Crist
                                        kwc@cvl
                                        Computer Vision Lab
                                        University of Maryland

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al
Date: 17 Jul 85 15:28:10 GMT

richardt@orstcs.UUCP (richardt) writes:
>About shapechangers in Star Trek.  Besides Garth, there were the
>two 'magicians.'  I don't remember the name of the episode, but
>Sulu, McCoy, Kirk, Spock, and a few Red-shirts were captured by
>shapechanged aliens.  At the end of the show they turned out to be
>small, blue green critters that were a cross between a starfish, an
>amoeba, and a chicken.

As has already been mentioned, this episode was "Catspaw."  However,
the aliens were not, as I recall, shape-changers.  Rather, they cast
illusions of various forms, while actually retaining their own
forms.

        Muffy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 07:32 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Martin Landau trivia

The San Jose Mercury News just ran a TV trivia bit that included
such gems as "did you know that Dr McCoy's medical instruments were
really salt and pepper shakers?"  Now any Trekker knows that, but I
didn't know that they originally asked Martin Landau to play Spock.
It makes sense, since I've never really seen him show emotions, but
aren't we lucky?  Who would direct the movies?  Would girls have
loved him so much?  Can you imagine Landau zapped by the spoors and
hanging from a tree, laughing like a human?

I just think it's as good as James Cann turning down the role of
Superman because he wouldn't be caught dead in those blue tights.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"...
Date: 16 Jul 85 18:15:01 GMT

>From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
> Friends of mine have complained about the various traps used to
> trash the imperials, viz., how could they build them in such a
> short time?  I assumed, naturally enough, that there are large
> predators on the planet, that we never see, on which they use
> things like the swinging logs (that was a good one!)

I assumed that the traps were already set up; they could not have
been built in that short a time.  But it takes very little
imagination to believe that they were already set up.  Given their
background, the Imperials probably hunted the Ewoks for sport.  If I
were an Ewok, this would get me to build traps and defenses.

What I find hard to believe is that the Imperials would build a
fighting machine which walks on two legs, and when it trips and
falls down, it blows up!  Military equipment has to be sturdy, not
fragile.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jul 85 1740-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #276
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 276

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brunner & Sturgeon & Varley,
                Miscellaneous - FTL (3 msgs) & 
                        Cuteness (2 msgs) &
                        Alien Visitors & Time Control

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie)
Subject: Looking for `Shockwave Rider'
Date: 18 Jul 85 12:43:04 GMT

    Ever since I borrowed a copy of `Shockwave Rider' (by John
Brunner) from a Canadian friend, I've been trying to find a copy for
myself, but to no avail.  Even the good old Edinburgh SF Bookshop is
letting me down!
    Does anyone know where I could get a copy (preferably new, but
if you've got one too many, name your price...)?
    Please reply by mail (if you can).

    Getting my own Shockwave Rider would make my year!

    Many adthanksvance,
                    Brian Ritchie.

PS - With all these new prints of `Zanzibar' and `The Sheep Look Up'
(in Britain at least), does anyone know if a new print of SR is
planned, and if so, when?

------------------------------

From: bunkerb!mary@topaz.arpa (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography request
Date: 18 Jul 85 12:17:25 GMT

>    From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like
>to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see
>which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no
>other reason...

Try "Slow Sculpture", by Theodore Sturgeon.  It's not a high-action,
hard-science kind of story, but exceptionally well-written.  I found
the language and characters to be evocative and moving.

M. Shurtleff
decvax!ittvax!bunker!bunkerb!mary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 09:09 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: characters in John Varley's stories

I just recently read "Press Enter" by John Varley. I thought it was
a quite good story, but it reminded me of something I had noticed
about Varley's stories a few years ago when I read The Persistance
of Vision (the entire short story collection, not just the story).
Since this is the only Varley I've read, please forgive me if his
other fiction doesn't share this trait.  I'm speaking of the age of
the male characters compared to that of the female characters.
Varley's men are almost always twice (or more) the age of the women
they end up with. In "Press Enter" the main character was 50 and the
girl was 25. In Persistance of Vision I believe the main character
was about 25 and the girl was around 13 (it's been about 5 or 6
years). All through TPoV collection I noticed this. It's not
something I mind, it's just something I found curious... Has anyone
else noticed this or am I just imaging it?

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 01:20:12 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: FTL travel

>Rick Coates says:
>The reason that faster-than-light is acceptable is that it is
>explained, and has rules.  This includes reactionless thrusters

I believe, if you will check, you will find that the reactionless
drive in Niven's Known Space universe has nothing to do with the FTL
drive in the same universe.  I do not recall that his FTL drive was
ever explained there.

>From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
>The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty
>assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect that
>a faster-than-drive would have on the world . . .  According to
>Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is exactly equivalent
>to traveling backwards in time.  (This is similar to the way in
>which Special Relativity equates mass and energy as being exactly
>the same thing.)

>>From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams)
>>Stories assuming ftl travel generally (implicitly) assume that
>>special relativity is wrong, that there is a preferred frame of
>>reference, which approximates our own here on Earth.  Admittedly,
>>most do this because the author does not understand special
>>relativity, BUT it is a consistent assumption--just not very
>>likely.
>
>One would think that the Michelson-Morley experiment fairly well
>ruled out this unlikely possibility nearly a hundred years ago!

>> From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
>> Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light
>> travel is just plain impossible.  All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms
>> turn imaginary .
>No.  Special Relativity just says that you can't accelerate through
>the speed of light.  It doesn't say you can't travel faster than
>the speed of light.  Haven't you ever read any of the stuff on
>tachyons?  The tachyon theory is completely consistent with Special
>Relativity.  They always travel faster than light, and they travel
>backwards through time.
>
>Something might come along that might be more general than Special
>Relativity . . . but it's incredibly unlikely that anything will
>ever contradict Special Relativity.

Haven't any of you guys ever heard of Stephen Hawking???  As a mere
biologist, I will not attempt to summarize any part of his theories,
but he says (and all the Smartest Physicists say he is better'n
Einstein) that Special Relativity is only good under local
conditions.  [Among other things.]

>From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
>I'm sure this shows a shocking naivitee on the subject of
>relativistic physics, but this argument never made much sense to
>me.  So what if the multiplier turns imaginary.  . . .  I've always
>been surprised that physicists would throw up their hands at this
>and say "it's impossible" rather than finding out just what the
>consequences of having imaginary mass, velocity and time would be.

I believe those "consequences" are tachyons.  The problem is to
accelerate *through* the lightspeed barrier, as Doug Alan stated
above.

I've seen no mention of the "Alderson Drive", which is a theory
specifically constructed for Pournelle by a good theoretical
physicist to be a plausible fictional theory of a FTL drive.  It
assumes the "rubber sheet" universe, but it also assumes some means
of repulsion to whatever local gravitational anomaly one happens to
be orbiting, which causes an effectively instantaneous transport to
the next gravitational anomaly, along some lines of least
resistance.

I have also noticed occasional denigration of *Analog*.  If all you
guys read it, you might be more up to date on theories.  Sure, it
takes some effort to read some of the articles, but you get out what
you put in (just like reading *Scientific American*).  TANSTAAFL!

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: FTL travel
Date: 17 Jul 85 23:30:00 GMT

>I'm sure this shows a shocking naivitee on the subject of
>relativistic physics, but this argument never made much sense to
>me.  So what if the multiplier turns imaginary.  Imaginary numbers
>have rights too.
>Evan Kirshenbaum

Really! The subsonic aerodynamics equations will produce complex
results if you try to put supersonic speeds in them. So of course
everyone used to say that it was impossible to fly at supersonic
speeds. The problem is that the subsonic equations include implicit
assumptions about such things as how incompressible air is, and
those assumptions do not hold for supersonic speeds. If you use the
correct equations, transonic and supersonic flight are just dandy.
It seems reasonable to me that the same sort of thing could be true
of faster-than-light speeds, i.e., we are making assumptions on this
side of the barrier about physical conditions on the other side that
could be quite wrong, but then I want to believe we can break the
light barrier.
                                                Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 06:49:02-PDT
From: vickrey%lite.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: FTL Debate

FTL arguments always remind me of an SF short I read many years ago.
The Martian government, alarmed by the rapid and seemingly psychotic
technological development of the ape-primitives on Earth, forbid
said monkeys, on pain of planet-wide nuking, to do any kind of space
flight development.  The name of the story was LOOPHOLE.  Nuff said.

The Theory of Special Relativity is inarguably correct.  But it's
not necessarily the end of the argument.  Any physicist who thinks
otherwise should switch to a field that does not require original
thinking, like <insert_your_favorite_hack_profession_here>.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85  6:35:47 EDT
From: "John f. Hardesty" <jhardest@bbncct.ARPA>
Subject: Ewoks and cute

        In response to all this hullaballo about the `cuteness` of a
creature in science fiction stories.  The Ewoks are `cute` to use
because we always associate anything that we have not seen before
with something that we are familiar with.  That is, the Ewoks of
Star Wars remind us of teddy bears because when we were young we
were told stories about cute cuddly teddy bears and the like.  The
same goes for the Hokas and the Fuzzies (gashta).  As to the ability
of the Ewoks to be unseen by the Imperial Stormtrooper, you must be
aware that the world is forest covered with tall trees and the like;
the Ewoks can hide from anyone if they wanted to.  As to their
technological backwardness defeating the `might ` of the
Stormtroopers, a corollary to one the Murphy laws state
(paraphrased) - Any technological advanced weapon will have more
things go wrong - induced or natural declination - in a direct
relation to the number of moving parts. Or - A rock will misfire
less than a rifle but both can kill so which is better.  Or - A
three dollar part with bring the downfall of a three million dollar
weapon.

        Besides, the Ewoks could have wreaked havoc on the
Stormtroopers as long as the stormtroopers did not destroy the Ewoks
naturals defense - forest.  And natural weapons are easier to fix
and replace than technological weapons.
                                        John Hardesty
                                        jhardest@bbncct.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 14:50:19-PDT
From: DEKEMA%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Soft cute/nasty fuzzy things

Of course "Ewok" isn't "Wookie" spelled backwards!

But try spelling it sideways (a few letters are bound to fall off)!

Jeannie Hobbs :)    (using Jan Dekema's account)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1985 14:15:04-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: What an advanced race would come far to get....

I just tuned in to SF-Lovers yesterday after several weeks away and
was rather surprised to see the discussion about What an Advanced
Race Would Come Far to Get still going on, albeit somewhat in a
somewhat diluted form.

It also seemed to me that one of my earlier comments had been
misinterpreted, so I'd like to reiterate & clarify, if I may.

The discussion began when someone (I forget who) was criticizing the
TV series "V" and asserted something like the following:

     "... there's only one thing that an advanced race would cross
     interstellar space to get, and it certainly isn't water. It's
     slaves."

Now there are really two assertions there, one about the value of
water to an advanced race, the other about the value of slaves to
same.

I questioned both assertions, & still do, and it was these
assertions I wished to talk about, NOT the series "V". In response
to the first assertion, I wrote:

> 1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the
> resources to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one
> option open to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go
> whatever distance it takes to get it!

I still stand by this. What other choice does a race have, but
extinction?  Note, however, that this still does not explain why
someone would try to get water from Earth as opposed to the rings of
Saturn, once they've arrived in our solar system. Saturn seems a
much better source (though contaminants might prove a problem; we'll
hopefully see in the not-too- distant future).

In questioning the assertion about slavery, I wrote something like:

     Would slaves have any value at all to an advanced race?  At
     some point, machine labor becomes cheaper & more efficient than
     slave labor, & once a race has passed this point, what use
     would they have for slaves? Of course one might argue that this
     applies only to physical labor, & perhaps they'd have use for
     intelligent slaves in other sorts of labor (nightmare scenario:
     aliens kidnap the entire human race & make accountants of us
     all!).

I have to stand by this too; I've yet to see a convincing line of
reasoning to the contrary. (Please remember that I'm not really
discussing the TV series "V" here, but rather the more general
assertions I delineated above.)  Is anyone familiar with any novels
or stories in which the taking of human (or other sentient) slaves
by an advanced race is treated with some degree of depth? I can't
recall any right off-hand. If so, what reasons are presented for
such activities?

An interesting possibility occurs to me. Imagine a race whose
evolution has been similar to that of Vulcans, from an emotional &
violent past to a very cold & rational present. But this race has
gone even further; they've lost emotion to the extent that they are
now totally unable to create art. However, they can still appreciate
it, and works of art from their distant past are highly treasured.
What would happen if such a race discovered humanity as we currently
are? Might they take us as slaves, forcing us to create artworks for
them? Would such a scheme work? Would the kidnapped humans create
great art? Perhaps so, if suffering contributes to great art. Or
would they turn out trash? Would the aliens know the difference? Has
anyone read anything like this?
                                     Regards,
                                      Jeff Rogers
                                      jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 13:51:48-PDT
From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jim Feldman @KS1 DTN 523-4498
From: NEXUS::FELDMAN)
Subject: time and time again...

As long as we're on the subject of time control...

There is a novel about a "draftee" who fights in a war where the
distances involved are great and FTLD is used.  The problem is that
the Earth ages 100-200 years between shore leaves and by the time
the war is over almost 800 years have passed on earth.  Society has
drastically changed and so they set up a colony for vets that is like
the one they originaly left.  During one of his early shore leaves,
he meets a woman who "waits" for him on a relativistic shuttle that
operates to keep in synch with the solders.  She finally gets off
when he is mustered out to the colony, at the same subjective age as
he is.  (author and title unknown but I'm sure someone can put their
finger on it)

The other is the classic Twillight Zone where this guy has a stop
watch.  The catch is that when the watch stops so does all the world
except him.  First he just plays a few pranks while the world is
"stopped".  Then he robs a bank.  While robbing the bank, he of
course drops the watch and can't restart the world as he sees it.

sorry if these have already appeared
                                        Jim Feldman
                                        DEC - Colorado Springs

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 85 1935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #277
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 277

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Good Short Stories (2 msgs),
           Films - Film Fantasies (2 msgs) & Spielberg &
                   Explorers & Escape From New York,
           Music - SF and Music (2 msgs),
           Television - Star Trek & Space: 1999 (2 msgs) &
                   Dubbed Laughter,
           Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Re: Review of _Bearing_an_Hourglass_
Date: 11 Jul 85 16:55:56 GMT

>    One last note.  At the end of each book, Anthony has an
>"Author's Note".  He discusses his motivations and what he is
>currently doing and where he got some of his ideas.  The Note after
>OPH was especially interesting, since he described his own brush
>with Death.  One could clearly see the influence of his day-to-day
>life on his writing.  In keeping with my statements above, I can't
>remember anything about the Note in BAH.
>
>       {backbone}ihnp4!bellcore!b2

I can't hold back on this one.  I have rarely been more put off by
anything I read than I was by the afterword to On A Pale Horse.  It
was bad enough that, on reading it I felt it was slow in places, but
he had to go on and tell me that he had padded it--mostly in places
I thought were slow.

I read the book and decided it was a good read. Then he put in this
afterword explaining that it was really a better book than I, the
reader, thought it was.  And, to top it off, he explained that he
was writing the afterword becuase the book was still too short.

In some sense, it is refreshing to see a writer who is not troubled
by the smallest hint of integrity, but all in all it was the most
disgusting thing of its sort I have read since David Gerrold's
preface to Diane Duane's first novel.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography request
Date: 19 Jul 85 03:16:41 GMT

mte@busch.UUCP (Moshe Eliovson) writes:
>       For short stories, nothing beat Lin Carter's Best of
>Fantasy and Flashing Swords.  Thieves' World #1 was hearty as well.

If you like Theives' World, I just found an anthology in a similar
vein that people ought to really like. It is called "Liavek" and is
edited by Will Shetterly and Emma Bull. It includes stories by
people like Gene Wolfe, Jane Yolen, and Barry Longyear. The best
story in the book was, I think, "An Act of Contrition" by our dear
friend SZKB, but all of the stories are of high quality.

From the ex-USENET fascist:
Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography requ
Date: 19 Jul 85 01:51:00 GMT

I strongly agree with the recommendation for Lafferty's *Nine
Hundred Grandmothers*. "Land of Great Horses" and the title story
are very good.  Lafferty likes to play with reality, but they are
generally spiritual realities rather than P.K.D.'s drug-induced
alternate realities.

On the dark side, Ray Bradbury's *Long After Midnight* collection
has a very good title story, as well as my favorite Halloween story,
"The October Game." One of my favorite writers of short stories is a
little harder to find, though.  John Collier wrote more horror and
dark fantasy than science fiction, but he always wrote it well.
"Evening Primrose," "Bottle Party," "The Touch of Nutmeg Makes It,"
"The Lady on the Gray," and "Thus I Refute Beelzy" are good things
to start with. Most of his short stories are in two collections,
*The Best of John Collier* and *Fancies and Goodnights*.

James Tiptree, Jr. writes good hard SF short stories. Frederic Brown
wrote a lot of bizarre stories. Try the collection *Paradox Lost*.
An excellent time travel story is "Vintage Season" by Henry Kuttner
and C.L. Moore. Find a copy of *The Best of Henry Kuttner*. I don't
remember if it has "Vintage Season," but it should have "Mimsy Were
the Borogoves," "Nothing But Gingerbread Left," and a Gallagher
story or two. Both Brown and Kuttner write good comedy. Another
hilarious story is Larry Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex,"
probably in *All the Myriad Ways*.

For the random story, any volume of Terry Carr's *The Best Science
Fiction of the Year* will always have something good.

                                        Wombat
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 85 08:49:14 PDT (Wed)
From: Don Rose <drose@uci-icse>
Subject: your film fantasies

First of all, let me say I just starting reading sf-lovers bboard
and find it fantastic - well-written, fun, informative, etc. Since I
am a closet writer (who isn't) - esp. of screenplays - let me start
my involvement with the net by asking anyone/everyone to spout off
on what things they always wanted to see in films (esp. SF-related)
- your visual fantasies, if you will. I think the results should be
interesting and enjoyable for all.  (A related question: what do
most people out there feel will work/sell today - e.g. people may
have opinions on outdated/overworked genres, or genres due for a
revival, a la the current return-of-the-Western.)
    Looking forward to your replies......  Donald Rose

(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?)

------------------------------

To: Don Rose <drose@uci-icse>
Subject: Re: your film fantasies
Date: 17 Jul 85 09:08:25 PDT (Wed)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

Depends on what you define as a Sci Fi Western, but Westworld
(+sequels) and Star Wars immediately come to mind, for different
reasons.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 85 09:13:27 PDT (Wed)
From: Don Rose <drose@uci-icse>
Subject: spielberg-produced films
Cc: hester@uci-icse

People have been mentioning how Spielberg-produced films seem to be
going downhill as of late, and others said that "Back to the Future"
is a welcome step back to Steven's normally high quality (the latter
being his latest produced-but-not-directed film).

I agree with both opinions. However, I think people should not
forget the DIRECTORS of these boy-wonder-produced films. Case in
point: Bob Zemeckis, director of "B-t-t-Future", is a wonderful
director who has made only hip, witty, winning films since I can
remember (e.g. Romancing the Stone).  In addition, Zemeckis co-wrote
the script, and I have an informal heuristic in my head which says
that films having the same director and writer usually are carefully
made, and are successful (and are, most importantly, good films).

Donald Rose
(ICS Dept., U.C. Irvine, Irvine CA 92715)
P.S. Spielberg is the cover story for this week's TIME magazine;
excellent pieces about his life (in his words), and touches on
Goonies and B-t-t-future.

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: "Explorers"
Date: 16 Jul 85 18:50:19 GMT

Lightweight, but I enjoyed it.  Did anyone else notice "rosebud"
amoung the junk at the junk yard?

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 10:03 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Escape From New York

What's all this talk about Snake Plisken?  Isn't he dead?

------------------------------

From: druxo!knf@topaz.arpa (FricklasK)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 18 Jul 85 17:59:11 GMT

A couple of other sci-fi related songs are:
  Children of the Sun (I don't remember who by)
    about the landing of aliens on the earth.  I seem to recall a
    few of the other songs on this album were also realted to this
    topic.
  The entire "I Robot" album by the Alan Parsons Project.
  A song about video games on a recent Lou Reed album.
  And about half the songs David Bowie came out with between
    1969 and 1976.

   Ken
PS sorry if anyone's already mentioned some of these.

------------------------------

From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie)
Subject: Re: Music & SF (Hitchhikers music)
Date: 24 Jul 85 15:44:46 GMT

>From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
>To tie this in with SF: The background music of most of The
>Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy radio programs is that from the
>Oxygene album.

  Are you sure about this?  I didn't recognise any J-M Jarre music
in the radio series (then again, I only know `Oxygene').  I
understood that most of the music was written and performed under
the auspices of the BBC's Radiophonics Workshop.  It often sounded
akin to Jarre's rambling doodles, but Oxygene it sure was not.
(Maybe we've heard different radio shows....).

   -- Brian Ritchie.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999.
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT

        The other episode that was banned was RETURN TO TOMMORROW in
which Kirk lends his body to some alien for some reason. A bit too
much like possession?
                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Yet more 1999.
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT

With reference to UNLIMITED EAGLES.

"The Eagle is one of several classes of interplanetary spacecraft...
..constructed by the Engineering and Technics section of Moonbase
Alpha using materials and components either shipped from Earth or
MANUFACTURED ON THE MOON." Q.E.D.  from STARLOG #7

Anyone care to comment on unlimited fuel?

                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF and also 1999.
Date: 16 Jul 85 13:35:55 GMT

        A while back someone said 1999 should win an award for the
highest density of illogic...Not so! This award must go to the DR
WHO episode TERMINUS. The plot involved the whole universe being
created by one spaceship dumping its fuel.(????) And whats more it
may do so again.(Heavy).

        TOMMORROW IS YESTERDAY would be in the running with lines
like "The whiplash propelled us into a time warp.." etc.
Pseudo-Science that would make even a 1999 fan wince.

        ALL the problems associated with 1999 itself were due to the
scripts.  This covers the over emphasised scientific errors which
could have been avoided by just explaining the actions with more
pseudo-science in the good old TREK/WHO tradition. The show had no
scientific adviser to explain the rule bending and correct that
which was wrong. Couple this with a producer who insists on removing
all the good lines and you get left with such mediocure results.
        Nonetheless some episodes were very good and well done. Have
the people who are so scornfull either forgotten or not seen such
episodes as: DRAGON'S DOMAIN,END OF ETERNITY,ANOTHER TIME ANOTHER
PLACE

        Another problem it faced was no fault of its own. I refer to
the obvious closed mindedness shown by viewers and particularly some
TREKKERS who love TREK to the exclusion of all else. I can't
understand this attitude and find it quite possible to love both
series equally without destructively comparing one against the
other. Both shows had good and bad points.
                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999.
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT

With reference to DUBBED LAUGHTER.

I tried dubbing laughs but see no added appeal in 1999, but some
rock music over the action sequences works well.  I'm sure laughter
would work on the TREK episode PLATO'S STEPCHILDREN as it is sorely
needed. This episode took itself seriously but was very funny. At a
recent college showing for Charity of this and other BBC banned
episodes, this episode brought the house down whilst people thought
WHOM GODS DESTROY to be corny.

                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: what an advanced race would ...
Date: 18 Jul 85 22:33:42 GMT

> Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that Hydrogen and Oxygen were
> two of the most common elements in the universe.  Therefore, why
> invade a defenseless Earth to get (possibly polluted) water?  They
> forgot one major fact: Most of that hydrogen is tied up in stars.
> Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go and skim a
> star for hydrogen any time soon.  Especially Rigel!

   Sorry. I forgot the name of this poster...at any rate: Something
like 98% of the matter in the Universe is hydrogen. There are
hydrogen nebulae, hydrogen atmospheres, and just plain ol' free
hydrogen floating around with nothing to do. You really don't have
to go near Rigel. (Why Rigel, anyway? It's a pretty boring star....)

   Incidently, in the past ten years, there has been several
findings of actual H20 nebulae...no one would have to go to a planet
to bother anyone...

   ...so you see, water (or its components) are everywhere...so V is
still silly...
                           --- Rob DeMillo
                               Madison Academic Computer Center
                               ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: what an advanced race would ...
Date: 16 Jul 85 17:53:35 GMT

richardt@orstcs.UUCP (richardt) writes:
>Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that Hydrogen and Oxygen were
>two of the most common elements in the universe.  Therefore, why
>invade a defenseless Earth to get (possibly polluted) water?  They
>forgot one major fact: Most of that hydrogen is tied up in stars.
>Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go and skim a star
>for hydrogen any time soon.  Especially Rigel!

Maybe most of the hydrogen is tied up in stars (this isn't quite
clear, since we don't know exactly how much non-stellar material is
floating around in the universe.  But we do know certain minimums.)
But if you leave out the stars entirely, and count only non-stellar
matter, hydrogen is still the most common material in the universe
-- probably a larger fraction than what is in the stars.  (Stars
convert hydrogen to other things.)

Why then, you ask, is hydrogen so (relatively) rare as it is on
Earth?  The reason is that the sun, early in its existence, blew it
all (mostly) away into space.  Thus small worlds near stars are
hydrogen-depleted.  The only other things in the universe (as far as
we know) which are hydrogen- depleted are large, old stars or the
remnants of same (white dwarfs, neutron stars, etc.)  In particular,
all the giant planets in our system (one of which, Jupiter, contains
a majority of the non-stellar mass in the system) are all mostly
hydrogen, and their satellites are not short of hydrogen.

------------------------------

From: wucs!tp@topaz.arpa (tom thumbs)
Subject: what would advanced being come for? / music in sf
Date: 19 Jul 85 03:33:08 GMT

what would an advanced race come to earth for?

1. I know some wild and crazy alien guys and they say:
  "LARGE BREASTED AMERICAN WOMEN!"

2. they are already here and taking over... soon we will all be numbly
   repeating... "We're Beatrice."

3. Kate Bush!
  (also provides the tie-in with music & sf)

             tom patterson      ihnp4!wucs!tp (uucp)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 85 1956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #278
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 278

Today's Topics:

                  Films - Explorers,
                  Music - SF and Music (5 msgs),
                  Miscellaneous - Bug-eyed Monsters & Starlog &
                          Christopher Lloyd (2 msgs) & Arts and SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: "Explorers"
Date: 16 Jul 85 07:10:18 GMT

     "Explorers" is so lightweight that you'd better hope nobody
coughs when you see it, or it might get blown away.  It's well made,
sort of sweet, definitely harmless, fairly entertaining, and lacking
in anything approximating substance.  "The Goonies", by contrast,
was a large, indigestible lump.  I preferred "Explorers", but
neither film seems of any great importance to me.  You could easily
skip "Explorers" and not have to worry about having missed much of
anything.

     Telling almost anything beyond the barest essentials of the
beginning of the film would be (and, in the case of many reviewers,
has been) criminal, for the film has so little plot.  For those who
don't like to see a film without knowing a little bit about it, the
most I can fairly tell you is that "Explorers" is about three boys
who, inspired by odd dreams, build a space- ship.

     Joe Dante reveals an unexpected taste for children's trifles,
for that is what "Explorers" really is.  Who would have thought that
the director of "Piranha", "The Howling", and "Gremlins" would come
up with a film which almost no parent could possibly object to?  Of
course, there is the little problem that, by and large, once
children are old enough to choose films for themselves, the last
thing they want to see is a film their parents don't object to.
Where, then, will "Explorers" find its audience?  Certainly not
among adults, or at least not more than one time each.

     Dante spent too much time watching "E.T."  The first half of
the "Explorers" is filled with shots cribbed from Spielberg's film:
slow pans over children's toys, light mists in moonlit woods,
scrounging junk to patch together a high-tech device, and so on.
When the orchestra, led by a bevy of violins, kicks in, the sense of
deja vu is intense.  A few characteristic Dante touches, like the
Charles M. Jones Jr. High (that's Chuck Jones, master director of
Bugs Bunny cartoons), liven things up momentarily, but they are few
and far between.  If "The Goonies" seemed an overreaction to the
fuss about "Indiana Jones", "Explorers" is an almost alarming
retreat in the face of the criticism of "Gremlins".  It's the only
alarming thing about the film.

     For his leads, Dante, doubtless with producer Spielberg's help,
has dipped into the same old pool and come up with three more
attractive, white, male Yuppie puppies.  All are adequate, none are
extraordinary, and, in the already overburdened child actor market,
I doubt if they will resurface.  Dick Miller, long time Roger Corman
alumnus and a constant fixture in Dante's films, plays a rather
irrelevant part, and that is about all the cast that matters.

     Which leads us to an interesting point.  Anyone else out there
think that Steven Spielberg is a sexist?  Boys are always at the
center of his films, never girls.  The girls in "The Goonies" are
something of spoilsports and don't have as many interesting things
to do as the boys.  The protagonist of "Back to the Future" is male.
So was the protagonist of "Gremlins".  The little sidekick in
"Indiana Jones" was male, and the only woman was a screeching
caricature.  The kids in "Explorers" are all boys, the only girl
serving more or less as an icon.  Only her irresistibility kept Drew
Barrymore from fading into the background in "E.T."  The women in
"Jaws" had minor roles.  Only in "Poltergeist" did Spielberg give us
important female characters.  The female parts in "Raiders" and
"Close Encounters" weren't too bad, but they were definitely
supporting roles.  (There were no large women's parts in "Fandango"
either, but Spielberg took his name off of that when he saw it
wasn't going to be a smash.)  You have to go all the way back to
"The Sugarland Express" to find one of his films which really
revolves around a female character.

     I doubt if Spielberg is doing this consciously, but the fact
remains that, with George Lucas drowsing in somnolence (and let's
all remember the many great roles he gave to women in the "Star
Wars" films: Princess Leia and...  and... wasn't there a woman in
one of the rebel warrooms in "The Empire Strikes Back"?), Spielberg
is undeniably the most powerful filmmaker working.  He can, and
does, literally make what he wants to make, how he wants to make it.
And it doesn't seem to occur to him to give good roles to women.
Some of the most popular films of the last few years, and likely
some of the most popular films of the next few years, are being made
with little or no on-screen female presence.  Talk about lack of
role models.

     But, getting back to "Explorers", Spielberg and Dante have
dolled up the production in their usual style, with first rate
effects from Industrial Light and Magic and the usual professional
jobs from all the other departments. "Explorers" is just a
well-dressed trifle, and might have been a better film at half the
cost, if a little more vitality could have been injected into it.

     At worst, "Explorers" won't harm anyone, and can serve as a
reasonable entertainment for a couple hours.  Boys of 11-14 may find
it a bit more appealing, since the story is told from their point of
view.  Anyone else is likely to forget "Explorers" very quickly.
With the number of good, memorable films around, "Explorers" is one
to catch up with when you aren't in the mood for too much
excitement.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie)
Subject: Re: SF in Music (and approximations to Pern music)
Date: 24 Jul 85 16:14:45 GMT

Some more SF-connected music:

  Virtually everything Hawkwind have ever done; the only album I
ever had was titled something like `The Warrior At The Edge of
Time', and included poems written and read by Michael Moorcock, with
wierdo Hawkwind-effects in support.

  `The Pentateuch' by Dave Greenslade; actually a collaboration with
SF artist Patrick Woodroffe - DG did the record, PW the accompanying
book.  I don't know any more about it other than that the shop I saw
it in said it was a load of rubbish!

Brian Eno: Apollo (soundtrack for a collage of NASA space film,
             directed by someone whose name I've forgotten -- DON'T
             tell me; it's written on the LP at home. Eno's notes
             say something like `I wanted to create music which
             reflected the ambient `atmosphere' of being in space'
             (only a bit better phrased).  Not having been there, I
             don't feel qualified to comment on the success of his
             attempt; some of the `music' works for me, some of it
             doesn't (one track has very animal-like noises on it,
             and this was before the Shuttle started its
             monkey-business :-)
           On Land (if we're going to count Tangerine Dream for
             *sounding* `science-fictioney', then this has got to be
             in on it)

Genesis: The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Triffids piss-take)
         The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
            (perhaps `surreal' rather than `SF')
         A Trick of The Tail (Fantasy)

Yes:     Astral Traveller
         Starship Trooper
         The Gates of Delirium

   (Oh dear, my comments on Yes have turned into a ramble, which I
can't be bothered tidying up. Sorry!)
   Although Yes are lyrically distant from SF (in fact they seem
lyrically distant from *anything*), I always think of their music as
`otherworldly' (whatever that means).  Also, check out Roger Dean's
cover art, especially for `Yessongs' which tells a pictorial story
of the demise of a planet and its subsequent `re-seeding' on another
world.  This latter `planted the seed' for Jon Anderson's (first)
solo LP `Olias of Sunhillow', which attempts to repeat the story
musically (see above note on Yes' lyrics).
  `Olias of Sunhillow' comes closer to my imagination of `alien folk
music' than anything else; in particular, it comes to mind whenever
music is described in the Pern books.  Pedants may point out that
since `Olias' has a fair amount of synthesiser sounds, it is not
really that likely a candidate, but the whole album has an
`acoustic' flavour, and that goes a long way to satisfy my
impression of the music of Pern.  I do listen to a lot of
traditional music, which fits the `acoustic' image (harp, guitar,
cittern, fiddle, dulcimer, mandolin, etc etc), but even granted that
the music of Pern may well be derived from our own traditional
music, I *want* it to sound different!  Thus far, Olias has come
closest to fitting the bill; I'd be interested to hear anyone else's
`earthly approximations' to Pern music (or the music in any other
works of SF).

   If anyone is really interested in `science-fictioney' music, I'll
try and make a list from my collection at home (if I remember), but
it's likely to be quite large, and boring to anyone else... if
you're interested, mail me.  (Oh dear, what have I let myself in
for...?)

Cheers,
     Brian Ritchie

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 15:34:28 PDT
Subject: Music in Science Fiction

     I remember a story (or novel?) in which the central character
who, for reasons I no longer remember, was able to function in each
half of his brain independently.  He was, at least publicly, a
concert pianist, renowned for his ability to play a fantastically
difficult concerto ("Emperor" by Beethoven, I think) exactly the way
it was written.  As I recall, he was also involved in some kind of
spy or detective work.
     This is all I remember.  Don't know where I saw it or when, or
who the author was.  Anyone?

Bruce N. Wheelock
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 19 Jul 85 02:52:56 GMT

There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from a
few years back... anyone remember the artist?  (It wasn't popular
for very long.)

From the Crossposting Synapses of
a hacker
at&t [teletype corp.]

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: more SF music
Date: 16 Jul 85 02:55:00 GMT

Another artist who does SF music is the 'group' Planet P.  They have
produced two records so far (but get te tape versions if you can)
and both consist of almost entirely SF-themed music.

Another song for the scrapbook: most of the Rush album, Grace Under
Pressure, esp.  Body Electric.
                                        orstcs/richardt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 10:15 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Music in SF

Although we never really heard it, can we forget the war prevention
song entitled "Su Madre" from Lost Dorsai by Gordon Dickson?  After
all, it helped save the day.  It took guts too, but he was a Dorsai
after all.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 19 Jul 85 15:20:20 GMT

Has anyone mentioned "Armageddon Rag" yet?  It has a playlist of
songs in the front of it that are supposed to be played as you read
the book.
                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999.
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT

With reference to BUG EYED MONSTERS.
        What is wrong with them? As Aliens they must surely be better
than 1) STRANGE FLASHING LIGHTS (TREK/1999)
     2) LARGE BLACK SLABS       (2001)
     3) HUMANS IN SILLY UNIFORMS WITH LOTS OF MAKE UP ON  (All)

        Besides the kids love them (don't they?).

                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999.
Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT

With reference to STARLOG.

Someone called STARLOG a rag, I must protest. In the early days it
was very good and very fair to new series like 1999.TV-SciFi and
SF-TV have also been fair (see quote below) and much better than the
feeble STARBURST could manage (did they do a 1999 article at all?).

                                                Andy T.

------------------------------

From: hou2a!pjk@topaz.arpa (P.KEMP)
Subject: Re: Christopher LLoyd
Date: 17 Jul 85 13:21:33 GMT

I believe Christopher Lloyd also appeared in the TV show "Best of
the West" as the "killer" gunslinger.

                        Paul Kemp
                        ihnp4!hou2a!pjk

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 85 09:59:44 PDT (Friday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Christopher Lloyd

>From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>
>
>Here is everything that I can remember seeing Chris Lloyd in:
>
>Rev. Jim Ignatouski        "Taxi"
>Lord Kruge                 "Star Trek III"
>Doc E. Brown               "Back To The Future"
>Sargeant Schultz           "To Be or Not To Be"
>Frogface                   "The Lady In Red"
>psycho patient             "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

add to this list:
John Bigboote'              "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai
                             Across the Eighth Dimension"

I know I have seen him in other less-memorable stuff as well.

-- Josh Susser
   Susser.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 12:47:08 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: More arts & SF

Maybe I need to clarify myself.  When I spoke of the obvious absence
of the arts in SF, I was thinking specifically of the classic "Joe
American has a problem with aliens (or whatever) and uses something
that only humans can appreciate (only occasionally intelligence,
more often intuition or emotion, or some other particularly human
quality) to thwart his enemy and/or solve his problem."

Whatever folks may say about the SF elements of Pern, the Harper
Hall trilogy has never seemed like SF to me.  Granted, some stories
really are borderline, but I draw a line nonetheless between SF and
Fantasy.

I was speaking of this subject with a friend of mine, and he said,
"But if it has music (or whatever) in it, it's not HARD Science."
Hm.  It's possible that because there seem to be no strict
scientific elements in the arts (or so one might perceive), there
can be no hard SF stories having the arts as significant elements.
But what about the physics of sound in music?  Kinetic energy in
dance?  Other suggestions?  (I've already had it suggested to me
that since I'm both an author and a musician *I* should write the
kind of story I'd like to see, so no repeats thereof are necessary.
Perhaps I will...)

Since my last posting, I've read a story that comes close to my
idea.  It's reassuring anyway.  It's called "Tin Ear", in Spider
Robinson's Antimony.  Judging from all the notice he's been getting
in the letters on this subject, it seems like he's seen the lack
also and is doing something about it...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 85 2021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #279
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 279

Today's Topics:

                   Music - SF and Music,
                   Miscellaneous - FTL (3 msgs) &
                           Cuteness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wucs!tp@topaz.arpa (tom thumbs)
Subject: music in sf
Date: 19 Jul 85 03:33:08 GMT

Speaking of sf & music, someone mentioned hints of "Lord of the
Rings" in Led Zeppelin... if memory serves me correctly, "Ramble On"
from Led Zep II had lines like "in the darkest depths of Mordor
[something] a girl so fair / but Gollum, [?] the evil one, crept up
and slipped away with her..." and more things, enough so that while
in an altered state of consciousness, I had a mystic revelation
about the relationship between LZ II and LotR which didn't survive
the translation back to reality.

I see lots of mention of inside jokes in sf books in this group
(e.g. the authors in "Footfall"). Do many people know of references
to sf-people in "mundane" (non-sf) books? (inside jokes, catty
putdowns, etc... just wondering if anyone had noticed any
cross-pollination between genres).

tom patterson      ihnp4!wucs!tp (uucp)

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: FTL - a postivie argument
Date: 16 Jul 85 02:51:00 GMT

Okay, let's do something positive for a change and start considering
potential ways that FTL could be achieved.

1) On violating Special Relativity.  As someone mentioned, Special
   Relativity is based on some very basic mathematical postulates
   and those postulates are unlikely to be incorrect.  However,
   Newtonian Mechanics is also based upon a very simple set of
   mathematical postulates.  I think we can all agree that Special
   Relativity provides an accurate description in a number of areas
   where Newtonian Mechanics falls flat on it's face.  This is NOT
   because the basic postulates are incorrect, but because they do
   not have the needed scope.  Special Relativity is designed to
   DESCRIBE a set of actions *outside of the domain of actions which
   Newtonian Mechanics is designed to describe.* Therefore, if the
   pertinent actions which produce Faster Than Light travel are
   outside of the realm (i.e., based on an entirely different set of
   physical laws) of Special Relativity, the 'laws' of Special
   Relativity *do not apply* to FTL.  Thus, if we don't know about
   the physical laws which govern FTL, we have no basis to say that
   its impossible.  Newtonian physics works beautifully UP TO A
   POINT.  With the information we now have, Special Relativity may
   or may not be an accurate description of the universe.  There is
   evidence which suggests that it is nowhere near a complete
   system, however.  Witness Quantum Mechanics.  QM does not violate
   SR, but rather falls outside of the domain of SR.  Second point:
   SR, and any other form of physics, describes a mathematical MODEL
   of the universe.  When experience and the model don't jive, you
   change the model.  Of course, this tends to make the proponents
   of the old model unhappy in the process.  Everyone remember what
   happened when Einstein introduced SR?  He was laughed down by the
   current physics Establishment.  The basic argument is that WE DO
   NOT KNOW WHETHER FTL IS POSSIBLE OR NOT, AND HAVE NO RELIABLE
   DATA TO BASE A CONCLUSION ON.  WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT FTL DOES
   NOT OCCUR WITHIN THE CONSTRICTIONS OF SPECIAL RELATIVITY, AND
   THEREFORE IS PROBABLY BASED UPON OTHER, UNKNOWN PHYSICAL LAWS.

2) On the concept of Faster-Than-Light travel: There are two
   fundamental ways to move from place to place faster than light
   would travel that distance.  You can either occupy each succesive
   point in space in a period with a shorter duration than a photon
   would occupy each succesive point in space; OR, you can occupy
   points in space non-succesively.
     For example:

   ................................... <-- points in space
   ................................... photon's path -- takes n
                                       seconds
   ................................... true ftl path -- time is
                                       is less than n seconds
   .           .          .          . extralight path.
   A                                 B
   If the photon and the extralight object both start moving from
   point A to point B at the same time, the extralight object will
   APPEAR to have gone faster than light, as it will arrive at B
   before the photon.  Objectively, this is not what's happening;
   The extralight object has a speed below that of light, but is
   changing its location in 3-space within a shorter period of time.
   This is an important distinction.

By the way, James Blish explored the concept of jumping from point
to point in space in the book "All These Earths."  Sorry I started
being picky about terminology there, but the point doesn't make
sense if its not stated precisely.  In any case, most FTL travel is
based upon the latter concept, extralight movement.  Another book
dealing with this, which works from the question 'What makes this
point in 4-space different from any other point?,' is Gordon R.
Dickson's "Arcturus Landing."
                                                orstcs/richardt

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: FLT ( fundamental laws of physics )
Date: 18 Jul 85 14:55:44 GMT

A little while ago I posted an article talking about two
interpretations of a basic principle of special relativity that says
the faster an object is going, the more force you need to apply to
make it accelerate.  I don't want to get too far into physics in
net.sf-lovers, but there is an important law of philosophy of
science here, so one more article to clear things up.

robertj@garfield.UUCP (Robert Janes) writes:
>Newton however made the assumption that m was independent of v
>which is not in fact the case as was shown by Einstein. In fact
>mass ( as measured by an observer not moving with the object ) does
>depend upon v as follows
>
>       m = m0/sqrt( 1 - (v/c)**2)
>
>Using this we see that m increases assymptotically as v->c.  Thus
>the basic law is still quite sound if properly applied!

Einstein gave many things to the physics world and one that is still
not adequately appreciated today is the concept of "operational
definitions".  Science was very close to relativity at the turn of
the century; the experimental results (like the Michaelson-Morley
experiment) were there; the mathematics was there; the recognition
of the problem was there.  Einstein gets the credit because he said,
"Let's look at the way people _measure_ time."  Once you look at the
_operation_ of taking various kinds of measurements, you see how
such operations lead to measuring time dilation, length contraction,
and so on.

Operationally, how does one measure mass?  One subjects an object to
a known force and sees how it accelerates, then one applies F=ma.
If the object is more or less stationary in your own frame of
reference, you can for example put the object on a weigh scale.  The
force of gravity acts on the object, accelerating it downward a
small distance before the known force of the springs in the scale
decelerate the object.  The distance that the object has moved
(entirely a function of the acceleration given by the two forces) is
used to determine the object's mass.

When an object is moving relative to your frame of reference,
physicists measure its mass the same way.  They subject the object
to a known force and see how much it accelerates.  For example, a
particle in a particle accelerator is subjected to a known
electrical force and various techniques are used to see how fast it
ends up going.

Observations and special relativity both show that the particle
behaves _as_if_ its mass were greater than its rest mass (the
formula given above is correct).  However, the reason physicists get
this result is that they believe in F=ma (or its generalization
F=dp/dt)!  They work out the mass from the observed acceleration
from the known force (or sometimes the force observed to be
necessary to obtain a given acceleration).

I'm certainly not proposing that we do away with F=ma or that it is
even incorrect.  All I'm pointing out is that the definition of mass
and the formula for calculating mass has F=ma built right into it.
Physicists decided that F=ma (a mathematical equation) was more
important to preserve than the concept that the mass of an object is
fixed.  They changed the definition of mass rather than changing the
equation.

Mr.Janes goes on to talk about tachyons and applies the mass equation
to them.
>       But then we have the following problem:
>
>               if v>>c then 1-(v/c)**2 < 0
>               hence sqrt( 1 -(v/c)**2) is imaginary !!
>
>       What is imaginary mass and why is it necessarily more
>       tangible and acceptable then infinite mass?

I don't claim that tachyons exist.  But if they did exist, there is
no reason why the given formula for mass would apply.  It does not
apply to particles going at the speed of light, since the formula
would involve division by zero.  Nevertheless, there are many many
"things" that move at the speed of light (light being a prime
example).  We can say that the mass formula is not correct for
"things" whose speed is >= the speed of light; or we can say that
mass is not a meaningful concept for such things.  Either way, we
cannot say that the given formula argues against the existence of
tachyons, since it argues against the existence of light too, and we
know that light exists.  The formula does provide substantial
argument that you won't reach light speeds through acceleration from
slower than light speeds, but it says nothing about things that are
already at light speeds or faster.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Subject: FTL in SF
Date: 19 Jul 85 12:30:45 EDT (Fri)
From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA

Peter Alfke says:
>Relativity prohibits any transfer of information at speeds greater
>than that of light.  It doesn't matter how the information got from
>one place to another, just the distance covered per time taken.
>Upsetting, isn't it?

I might add that some assume that our universe is many-dimensioned
and the ships make use of that fact to *take short cuts* to their
destinations.  The usual analogy is that of a line two feet long
with it's end points one inch apart.  A one dimensional creature
travels two feet to go from one end to another, while a
two-dimensional creature (or a one dimensional creature in a
*spaceship* which can travel in two dimensions) travels one inch.
Did the two-dimensional creature violate the speed-of-light limit or
not?  Creature one would say yes, creature two would say no.  (BTW,
Macroscope, by Piers Anthony, has a particularly convoluted view of
the universe in it, as an example.)

John DeCarlo  <jdecarlo@mitre>

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 Jul 1985 08:13:51-PDT
From: wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Jack Wickwire)
Subject: Cold blooded cuteness

From: Leigh Ann Hussey
Subject: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"...

<me> What is wrong with "cute" these days?  I'm sorry, but I LIKED
     the Ewoks!

><friend> I have spared myself the dubious delights of the Smurfs,
>   along with most of the other rubbish that advertisers think will
>   appeal to kids (and God help us, sometimes they're right).

My feelings when I saw them were at best mixed. For though aliens
can be expected to come in whatever shape one can imagine the
ursine/anthropomorphic features of the Ewoks said 'Marketing
Strategy' loud and clear.  After the flood of Star Wars toys from
the first two movies, a perhaps overly cynical side of me was
disappointed that they should use something that was so heavily
evocative of children's toys.

>  But the cuteness of anything, even if it does resemble a walking
>  teddy-bear, is decidedly limited when it wakes you up, as it did
>  Leia, with a sharp spear at a sensitive spot.

While using a spear to wake someone does cut the cloying sensation
they first give, but the audience reaction during the times that I
watched the movie was at how cute they were with their cute spears.

It is true that cute can be deceiving, that is why people feed the
cute bears in a National Park and get mauled, they are demonstrating
that they have let the physical appearance of the bears deceive
them.  They are expecting pork-pie hats, collars, and neckties.

Instead of having their appearance be ambivalent and their attitude
have to be proven, they copped out and made them cute and friendly.

The Ewoks would have had to push a burning busload of blind orphans
off a cliff into shark infested waters before they could be seen as
anything but giant Teddy Bears. Instead of presenting me with an
ingeniously created arboreal civilization of aliens on an distant
planet I saw the contents of a child's toy chest.

> So I think labeling the Ewoks "cute" is one of the
> oversimplifications that abound when people discuss Star Wars --
> or when certain self-appointed network critics discuss anything
> having to do with SF.
>
> Guessing further, I'd say that the most vocal SF followers these
> days want to project an image of "maturity", of following a
> literary form of serious intent.  Anybody who feels like that is
> bound to feel that "cuteness" is souring his cause.  Again, I
> think this is one for the self-appointed critics, and not to be
> taken too seriously by most of us.  It will have its day and be
> forgotten.

My complaint is directed at a tossed off alien design with built-in
kid appeal. I am not being self-conscious about the books I read or
the movies I watch. I agree that in the case described the critics
reaction would be sour, but I am arguing that the Ewoks design was
unnecessarily glib and facile for a tribe of aliens. For instance E.
T. broke most of those rules I referred to below yet he was able to
be described as cute and got a sympathetic audience response.

>This dislike of "cuteness" (a subjective term, at best) is evidence.

I strongly disagree that cuteness is a subjective term at best. I
will quote from _Animation_ by Preston Blair Published by Foster Art
Service Inc.

pg. 11. The Cute Character - Cuteness is based on the basic
proportions of a baby + and expressions of shyness or coyness.... No
neck - head joins on to body directly... Head large in relation to
the body... High forehead is very important... Eyes spaced low on
head & usually large and wide apart...  Nose and mouth are always
small... Arms are short and never skinny and taper down to the hand
and tiny fingers... Tummy bulges - looks well-fed...  Fat legs -
short and tapering down into small feet for type.

The stereotypes used by animators are distilled down from what the
culture generally perceives as representing a certain set of
characteristics.  Just as you can tell what a cartoon character will
be like from their appearance before they even act so the costume
designers made the Ewoks as close to cute aliens as they could.

Do you think that during the hours of arguing over costume designs
to make this character look sinister and that look heroic that the
mass appeal of cute Ewoks was never mentioned? I can only guess,
that's true, but I guess that the Ewoks were designed to be cute for
commercial reasons to sell the movie and the toys.

>And c'mon, you Hoka and Fuzzy fans!  Why take offense?  I like them
>too, and that's why I liked the Ewoks.  There is nothing about them
>to be ashamed of.

My memories of the Hokas are of a broad satire of getting your
heroes from books with out applying any judgment to what you
are reading. Fuzzys, per se, never did much for me though I enjoyed
the books.  I am not ashamed of the Ewoks I just think the costume
design was purposefully designed to be cute and it distracted me
during the film.

Well I have harped on this at length so I'll quit here.
                                                        .wIx.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 85 2111-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #280
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 280

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anthony & Gardner & McKiernan &
                      Sallis & Varley,
              Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Mad Max &
                      SF Westerns,
              Music - The Android Sisters & SF in Music (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Re: Review of _Bearing_an_Hourglass_
Date: 20 Jul 85 07:33:07 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>I can't hold back on this one.  I have rarely been more put off by
>anything I read than I was by the afterword to On A Pale Horse.

Agreed. I think it was Lester Del Rey who said that stories ought to
live or die by themselves, not by their introductory notes. For
every author note I read in a book or story, I read two or three
that drive me up the wall (I wasn't particularly thrilled to hear
all about Harlan Ellison's vasectomy in Croatoan, for example...)

>I read the book and decided it was a good read.

Hmm... I liked On a Pale Horse enough that I bought "Bearing an
Hourglass" (the second book in the series) in hardback just after it
came out (THAT is a testimony that comes all too rarely...). I'm
waiting on the third until it shows up in paperback, perhaps through
the SFBC (that is a testimony that comes all too often....)

Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: Craig Shaw Gardner
Date: 19 Jul 85 20:32:54 GMT

> From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
> I finally spoke with Craig last night.  He was happy to report
> that Ace is going to publish three Ebenezum novels: "A Malady of
> Magicks", "A Multitude of Monsters", and "A Night in the
> Netherhells".  I don't know exactly when the books will start
> appearing.

        This is probably the greatest thing anyone could have told
me before a dreary weekend.

        For those of you who want a taste of Craig Shaw Gardner's
work see Lin Carter's Flashing Swords #5.  If you are a fantasy fan,
you've got to be ripped to miss this series when it comes out.

                Moshe Eliovson
                {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!jrm@topaz.arpa (John Miller)
Subject: Review of McKiernan's new book The Silver Call
Date: 19 Jul 85 19:44:28 GMT

If you enjoyed the Iron Tower Trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan (one of
our own here at Bell Labs) you will enjoy his new book "The Silver
Call".

"The Silver Call" takes place about 200 years after the Winter War,
the war in which the forces of Good meet the Evil forces of the arch
villian Modru. It is set in the world of Mithgar and tells the story
of the Dwarves efforts to retake their ancient home: the mines of
Kraggen-cor. If you read the Iron Tower Trilogy you will recall that
the Dwarves had lost Kraggen-cor to the forces of evil.

Two Warrows (Wee Folk) are enlisted by the Dwarves to aid in the
venture.  Despite their small size, the Warrows prove to be
formidable warriors.  Their selection was based on detailed
information they had about the interior of Kraggen-cor, information
they had gained from their study of the Deevewalker's records.

The book is fun reading and the suspense gradually builds up through
the entire tale. I felt as if I were digging around the mines of
Kraggen-Kor myself.

I received a sneek preview of The Silver Call the book directly from
the author; release is expected from Doubleday in the Summer of 86
in either one or two books. Watch for them.

For those of you who missed the Iron Tower Trilogy, the paperback
version is expected late this summer (85).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 16:20 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: James Sallis

Qualifier - While my books are at home

He edited an anothology of four Novellas.  The cover had a spiral of
worlds or cubes, each slightly changed from the last.  I remember
this because Samuel Delany's "Time considered as a Helix of
Semiprecious Stones" was one of the stories.

I also have "Tissue" James Sallis, short story, 1972, Doubleday (the
anthology title is mixed in an old card-based bibliography.

John Mellby                    P.O.Box 801, Mail Station 8007
Texas Instruments              McKinney Texas 75069
JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY
(214) 952-2139 (work) (214) 242-9641 (home)

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: characters in John Varley's stories
Date: 19 Jul 85 21:57:01 GMT

> From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
> Varley's men are almost always twice (or more) the age of the
> women they end up with...It's not something I mind, it's just
> something I found curious... Has anyone else noticed this or am I
> just imaging it?

In "Beatnik Bayou" the guy ends up with a much older woman.  But in
any case, sexual relationships in Varley stories are usually pretty
strange.  Sometimes a character ends up with a clone of him/herself
(with or with and without common memories), sometimes with a robot,
sometimes with his best friend who has had a sex change, sometimes
with a parent, etc., so age differences are the least of the
weirdness.

Oh, by the way, "Persistence of Vision" is the best book ever
written.
                        -Doug Alan
                          nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Amusing reference in _Back to the Future_
Date: 17 Jul 85 21:48:53 GMT

>I was reading the novelization of _Back to the Future_ and noticed
>an amusing reference.  When Marty arrives in 1955, he arrives on
>the Peabody farm.  The farmer, Mr.  Peabody, has a son named.......
>Sherman.

This was in the film as well as the novel.  But it seems more like
it was a joke for the actors more than for the audience, since you
don't really see it in the film itself.  It was in the credits at
the end.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!datanguay@topaz.arpa (David Tanguay)
Subject: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future"
Date: 13 Jul 85 20:43:12 GMT

> Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about:
> What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from
> 1955?  ...  Any comments?
> Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe

        I think the current plastics technology would blow the minds
of 1955 people. Back then plastics were synonymous with low quality
(and rightly so); today everything is made out of plastic. We didn't
(don't?) notice this revolution because it has happened slowly but
steadily. In a related area, expoxies and composite materials (eg.
graphite, kevlar) are also very impressive, if less pervasive.

David Tanguay

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 02:11:52 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome"

Steve Rabin writes:
>I disagree with Peter Reiher's review of Beyond The Thunderdome.

Your perogative.  I certainly won't try to convince you that you
didn't like it.

>Beyond The Thunderdome, on the other hand, is a satirical pastiche
>of the last 5 years of film.  I recognized episodes almost from
>Dune, Escape From New York, Star Wars, ET, the earlier Mad Max
>films, Lawrence of Arabia, Of Mice and Men....

While undeniably a lot of quotes from other films occured, I don't
think that this was the main point of the film, unless George Miller
is a liar.  Since all accounts I have heard say that he is an
extremely nice man, I'll take him at his word that, primarily, he
was trying to work with myth.  For me, "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome"
largely failed on the level of myth, while "The Road Warrior"
succeeded on the same level.

Not precisely on this point, Miller did comment (on similarities
between the chase scenes in "The Road Warrior" and "Beyond
Thunderdome") that "...once you've established emotional and visual
language for a film, there *is* only one way to approach a given
moment."  Don't count on all of those quotes being intentional.
Film scholars can, and do, make a profession out of looking foolish
when they ask film makers about their borrowings from their
predecessors.  I've done it myself, in public, and did I ever feel
like an idiot.

>The plot is not intended to be believable, or to stand on its own,
>and to judge it on these grounds is to miss the point.  Judge it
>for its dramatic and emotional effect, and for the new ideas and
>questions with which you leave the theatre.

I think that the plot was meant to be believable on the same level
as the Trojan Horse or Beowulf.  Judging it as anything but a myth
seems to me to miss the point.  Max is an archetypical hero,
performing an archetypical task.  (Miller invariably mentions, in
his interviews on this film, that a group of aborigines, on hearing
the part of the story about the children waiting to be taken off
into the sky, excitedly said that they had a legend just like that.)
Miller was trying, as his major task, to produce a universal myth.
I think he failed.

I can't say I came out of "Beyond Thunderdome" with any new ideas,
unless you count a nagging doubt that maybe George Miller isn't as
good a director as I thought he was.  (I'm working on crushing that
doubt.)  I left with lots of questions, mostly of the form, "Well,
since it obviously would have been better to do this that way, why
didn't Miller and Ogilvie do it that way?"  Note that I am not
saying that "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is a bad film, nor even
that it is not a good film, only that it isn't nearly as good a film
as "The Road Warrior".

>I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe there aren't many
>fast cars but I liked it a lot anyhow.

That's nice.  Fast cars in and of themselves don't appeal to me.  (I
have no particular fondness for either part of "The Cannonball
Run").  Well constructed movies do.  Basically, though, with few
exceptions, I like people to like movies, even the ones I have my
doubts about, since that means that they will see more movies, the
studios will make more money, causing them to make more movies,
giving me more movies to see, and, assuming fixed ratio of good
movies to bad, more good movies a year.  Therefore, take your loved
ones, multiple times, even, to see a movie I trashed.  You have my
blessing. After all, it's your money, not mine.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: your film fantasies
Date: 20 Jul 85 01:23:12 GMT

>From: Don Rose <drose@uci-icse>
>(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?)

Well, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ was western SF (a remake of _The
Magnificent Seven_, itself a remake of _The Seven Samurai_).  So was
_Borderland_ (a remake of _High Noon_).

I remember a SF/Western short story invloving time-travel.  The plot
was rather complex and involved a time traveling woman arriving at a
point in the Old West to have her child and having to fetch a .44
magnum from the future so a local could defend her against her
enemies (and incidently his).  Afraid I can't remember title or
author at the moment.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 14:47 EDT
From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: The Andoid Sisters

Since music in sf or vice versa has been a hot topic lately, here is
a review of:
                          The Android Sisters
                    Songs of Electronic Despair

As you might guess form the title, its even more obvious if you saw
the jacket, this is an extremely entertaining album.  Whether its
good music or not is quite another story.  In fact one of the eleven
cuts , "Telephone Wires in the Tropics", is more a short horror
story.  The first two cuts, "Sss-X Minus One" and "Invasion" are
snappy, but somewhat disconnected.  I particularly like the
arrangement of Invasion.  I am tempted to say its not quite like
anything I have ever heard before, but that could describe most of
the album realy well.  A key exception to this whould be the cut
"Livin' in the 50's", which is a realy fun electronic parody.  While
on the humour end of things the cut "Down on the Electronic Farm" is
probably one of the funniest songs I have ever heard.  The strange
part is that I can't realy figure out why.  If you can imagine a
mixture of a classic "Ompa"-type rythym, with an overvoice of very
high femalish voices doing a very tame version of rap using 3-4 word
sentences, all on top of a symphony of sentient quasi-animals, you
get the idea sort of.  About the most normal cut on the album is
probably "Robots Are Coming".  It wouldn't be hard to imagine DEVO
or Gary Numan doing something like this, but the tonal fabric is
very different.  The album even includes a lesson on how to make
your music so you don't have to listen to the dumb music on the
radio any more.  "Dumb is Fun" shows you how to create your own in a
Top-Down manner.  And how could anyone resist a cut by the title,
"Macho Robot or The Banana Trilogy"?

If you like sf and unusual modernistic electronicish music, this
record is a must.  Also if you have been interested in hearing some
of the more bizare things the Synclaviar II can do, this is for you.

Believe it or not this is a real review.  The Android Sisters, Songs
of Electronic Dispare is available from:

ZBS Foundation
RR#1, box 1201
Fort Edward NY 12828

If you call ZBS at (518) 695-6404 or -3960 they will probably send a
catalog.

John Mills

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz.arpa (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 16 Jul 85 18:41:00 GMT

> Spider Robinson did one about a rock singer wired for empathy.

If you're talking about _Stone_ with Jain Snow, and the narrator the
controller of the empathy circuits, I believe that was Edward
Bryant... possibly in Orbit or else a Nebula anthology or a Gardner
Dozois one or... in any case, a real good story.

Other sf-music things are _In_Pierson's_Orchestra_ and one about a
band composed of space miners in Orbit or some such, by Stanley
Robinson.  Also Sucharikul's Light_on_the_Sound series has a lot to
do with music, as he's a composer, and working on an opera with Gene
Wolfe last I heard.

For really GREAT music sf, how about Anne McCaffery's
_Crystal_Singer_ or even the Dragonsinger books?  What about Piers
Anthony's _Chaining_The_Lady_, with a whole race of aliens adapted
for creating music?  I really liked this stuff, before I got so
highbrow.
                           Laurence Roberts
                           ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

From: bambi!mike@topaz.arpa (Michael Caplinger)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 19 Jul 85 15:27:50 GMT

Klattu did "Calling Occupants..." initially, I think, but it was
later popularized by The Carpenters.  (By the way, the Klattu album
it appears on also has "Little Neutrino", the only song supposedly
sung by a subatomic particle in music history, I bet...)

        - Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 85 2137-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #281
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 281

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Footfall & Short Stories &
                         Tall Tale Stories (2 msgs) & New Books,
                 Films - Special Effect Work,
                 Music - SF in Music (4 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF writers in FOOTFALL
Date: 20 Jul 85 15:13:08 GMT

> From: denelcor!lmc    (Lyle McElhaney)
> The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven &
> Pournelle's new book _Footfall_ are:
>       Wade and Jane Curtis
> Reynolds and Wade Curtis write together, and both live in Los
> Angeles (if that's not enough of a clue, check out Curtis'
> response to the aliens' conditional surrender: "Nuke them till
> they glow, and then shoot then in the dark").

And if *that's not enough of a clue, check out the fact that two
stories that appeared in ANALOG in 1972 ("A Matter of Sovereignty",
Jan, and "Power to the People", Aug) as by Wade Curtis also appeared
in Pournelle's collection HIGH JUSTICE. Not to mention the fact that
two Wade Curtis suspense novels, RED HEROIN and RED DRAGON will be
reprinted later this year under Pournelle's own name.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography request
Date: 17 Jul 85 21:16:46 GMT

        For short stories, nothing beat Lin Carter's Best of Fantasy
and Flashing Swords.  Thieves' World #1 was hearty as well.

        Regarding individual authors, I recommend the Dilvish the
Damned collection by Zelazny and the "Swords against ... " by
Leiber.
        BUT-
        The Absolute BEST shorts I read came from Craig Shaw
Gardner.  I've only seen a couple of his stories and much to my
dismay I cannot find any anthology or further works.  Anyone who has
read about his remarkable wizard, Ebenezum, will agree with me.  If
anyone has an idea where I can get a hold of more of his work please
post it.  The few I've found came in Lin Carter's series.

                        Moshe Eliovson
                        {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar
Date: 18 Jul 85 23:46:09 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>BTW, did those stories by Clarke create the "tall tales in a bar"
>subgenre, or did someone else do it even earlier?

Wasn't James Branch Cabell (correct spelling optional) an earlier
SFnal (or at least fantasy-nal) perpetrator of such stories?

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF Bar Stories
Date: 20 Jul 85 15:44:12 GMT

> From: spar!freeman    (Jay Reynolds Freeman)
> franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>BTW, did those stories by Clarke create the "tall tales in a bar"
>>subgenre, or did someone else do it even earlier?
>
> Wasn't James Branch Cabell (correct spelling optional) an earlier
> SFnal (or at least fantasy-nal) perpetrator of such stories?

No. I suspect that you're thinking of Edward Plunkett, Lord Dunsany,
whose tales of Mr. Jorkens and the Billiards Club appeared at least
as early as the 30's (the first --- of five --- collections appeared
in 1931), While these aren't strictly *bar* stories, they are close
enough.

De Camp and Pratt's Gavagan's Bar stories also pre-date Clarke's
White Hart by a few years.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 12:30:40 edt
From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
Subject: new books

Two new paperbacks I picked up last night at Wordsworth's in Harvard
Square: R.A. MacAvoy's "The Book of Kells" and Katherine Kurtz's
"The Bishop's Heir". I think they were both just released. Now to
get myself into that Deryni frame of mind...
                                                - john romkey
                                                  romkey@mit-borax

------------------------------

Date: Sat 20 Jul 85 13:01:45-PDT
From: R H Davis  <RDAVIS@USC-ECL.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek -TMP

     1) You must understand that because of the nature of the movie
   industry there a large egos.  Large, unsatisfied egos breed/feed
   large, madly spinning gossip wheels.

 _As_I_understand_it_...Paramount Pics had, after the effort with
Disney Pics on "Dragonslayer" [excellent!!], been dying to start
it's own SFX shop (Universal had one...why not us?!?).  But, it had
to be a facility with a "look" of it's own so that their services
would be in demand from the outside(a sound business attitude,
reflecting Gulf & Westerns attitude as a whole).  Robert Able &
Assoc. was doing some incredibly innovative work with his Levi's
commercials via computer tech.  Paramount Pics set up an initial
$6mil contract to open a shop and have Able develop his ideas.
"Make this stuff different from anything going...ST-TMP is our
flagship film into Sci-Fic"
   In the end Able developed a lab that would shoot model animation
that was almost entirely developed at a term which was later shot
with models with almost NO human interaction.  The problem was that
no one explained to the computer the nature/texture/depth of film
and so naturally everything had a very flat look to it(I've seen
some of the footage).  At this point of the game Able had almost
used his entire $6mil and Paramount, already panicing from the
pictures rampant budget (Roddenberry is NOT a movie producer),
salvaged all the footage they could and called in Trumble to shoot
the model work (as he was there already developing SHOW-SCAN) and
Greg Jene (spell??) to do the miniatures.
  I know of no input from Dykstra, although his presence is
certainly possible as Paramount was throwing any available EFX tech.
in town into the project at this point.  The Able footage that made
it to the final cut of ST-TMP includes ALL the "Exterior" shots of
V'ger, the worm-whole(?)  effect and almost all of the Ilia and
electronic planet footage.
  A lot of bad press is out about Able but, most of it is ego
rattling because Able was in the right place at the right time
despite his lack of "traditional" EFX experience and got the
contract.
  Dykstra has a lot of bad press because he developed tech. for ILM
under contract for "Star Wars" and then proceeded to illegally use
that tech.  on his own projects (Battlestar). (He never worked with
ILM after SW, by the way).  This means that for a long time Dykstra
did very little visible work as he was a bad risk.  More and more
these days, though, you see him working on independent projects.
He's very talented ("Firefox") but he's also not a very wise
businessman.....  God!! 'nuff said, already!!

bd

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 16 Jul 85 02:09:54 GMT

freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) writes:
>can anyone think of interesting examples of written SF in which
>music played a dominant theme?

Let's not forget the "Harper Hall of Pern" trilogy by McCaffrey.  I
know it's aimed at 'younger readers', but I actually enjoyed it more
then the "Dragonriders" triology.  In "Crystal Singer", also by
McCaffrey, music plays a supporting role in that it is the
tool/medium thru which 'crsytal cutting' is done.  (in case anyone
is not informed: McCaffrey studied, directed and sang in
voice/operattas before starting her career in SF/F writing)

Also Ursula LeGuin's short story "Gwilan's Harp" (in her book "The
Compass Rose") has music as an important theme.  It's not anything
fancy or flashy (LeGuin's works never were) but I liked it a lot.

Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of
Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

Date: Sat 20 Jul 85 13:57:41-EDT
From: Mike Thome <MTHOME@BBNG.ARPA>
Subject: Music in SF, SF in Music

  While I can't think of many authors who *often* use music as a
central theme (with McCaffrey as the one who first comes to mind),
there do seem to be a great many short stories that deal with music
and the other arts...
        McCaffrey: Dragon{song,singer,drums} & Crystal singer

        Sucharitkul: Many of his short stories that make up his
                books (Inquestor series, Mallworld) have
                music/poetry/art as a *very* important theme - on
                the other hand, most of THESE arts don't exist
                here/now (darkweaver and dust sculptor (?) stick in
                my mind). (Why haven't I seen much (any) discussion
                of this author?)
        Robinson: Many of his "crosstime saloon" stories use music -
                "Wolfstroker" and the one about Bobbi Joy (is this
                "the right name?) stick in my mind... and, of
                "course, you get the puns for free...
        Also, I remember a couple of very good short stories about
music/art, but don't remember who wrote them: a wonderful story
about a woman who teaches a forest to play classical music (what is
this? I NEED to know!), and an interesting one in analog a year or
so ago about an art critic visiting a "revolutionary" new artist
(who isn't human) - called "The Critic", maybe?
        Anyway - that's about 1/2 hour of thought on the subject -
there has got to be much more out there.  I hope I gave enough clues
to ID the unknowns above to someone out there... I'de like to know
too...
        Oh yes, for SF-style music, try "The Essential Jean Michel
Jarre" which is a very good selection from his other albums.

        Mike Thome
        mthome@bbn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 14:36:03 edt
From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
Subject: sf in music

Michael Moorcock also cowrote Blue Oyster Cult's song "Veteran of
the Psychic Wars" from the Heavy Metal soundtrack. It's fairly
sf-ish.  A couple of other songs from the soundtrack are SF-y (??)
even when taken without the movie.

And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed to
be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's still
around?
                                        - john romkey
                                          romkey@mit-borax

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 15:11:55 EDT
From: David A. Adler <DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Music in SF

I have been reading through the messages citing references to music
in SF and SF in music and was surprised that no one has mentioned
the works of Somtow Sucharitkul. Some of you might recall that his
works were discussed a couple of months ago.

Since Sucharitkul composed music before he wrote SF, there are many
musical themes intertwined in his SF (at least in the Inquestor
series). Music is very important to a couple of the characters in
the Inquestor series and in one instance an entire city is
genetically altered so their voices create perfect harmony as they
walk through the streets and chant.

In FIRE FROM THE WINE DARK SEA, a collection of his short stories,
Sucharitkul included the theme song he was asked to write for Isaac
Asimov's SF Magazine. There are also a couple of interviews in the
collection in which he describes his musical "career." Personally I
have not heard the composition, but was told from a friend that it
is rather amusing.

Sucharitkul footnotes the music and breaks the work down into
several themes, including: fanfare ("every march should have a nice
grand fanfare"), generalized superhero theme, exotic alien princess
theme ("every space opera has one"), obligatory hordes of evil,
conflict, triumph, and a distant rumbling of evil forces ("the
obligatory 'I shall return' line that leaves room for a sequel").

The interview, by Darrell Schweitzer, works through the life an
times of Somtow Sucharitkul. Schweitzer asks Sucharitkul about his
early career, which included composing both poetry and music at a
fairly young age (early teens) as well as the development of his
writing and his philosophy of writing. When asked if there was any
relation between his music and writing, Sucharitkul responded that
he didn't see any barrier between the two, but thought he was much
better at writing music since he had more practice at it and he
thought it was easier to write in the first place.

Another composer who has written some work for SF Movies and other
work with SF in mind is Wendy Carlos (formerly Walter Carlos of
"Switched-On Bach" recordings with a Mood synthesizer). Wendy wrote
the soundtrack for TRON and has since written DIGITAL MOONSCAPES
featuring her interpretations of several of the moons in our solar
system, mainly those of Jupiter and Saturn, but those of Mercury and
Earth as well. She explains in the commentary that comes with the
recording that the work entitled "Europa" has a hopeful ending:
"beneath the cracked-ice surface there may be life waiting to be
thawed from its frozen prison as in Arthur C. Clarkes's 2010."

Carlos has moved away from the Moog synthesizer and is now using
what she calls the LSI Philharmonic (and yes, LSI stands for Large
Scale Integration). She uses the new synthesizer with a "library" or
recorded voices to create the music. It is quite interesting and I
highly recommend it for those of you who like digitally synthesized
music.

-David Adler

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: advanced races visiting earth
Date: 17 Jul 85 16:47:21 GMT

If aliens come to earth to rip off anything, it's going to be the
library of congress, the national archives, and the contents of the
smithsonian (plus like stuff in other countries) not water or
people.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85  7:54:01 EDT
From: "John f. Hardesty" <jhardest@bbncct.ARPA>
Subject: Advanced Races - What would they come for

        In answer to all these questions about what an advanced race
would come for (to earth that is).  Consider this, a race
(substitute empire, people, kingdom) has developed a transportation
system that allows them to expand/explore/conquer new unknown
territories.  The main reason most exploration takes place is GREED
or POWER or a combination of the two.  An empire wants to expand its
borders.  OK Lets suppose it finds a world/(continent) filled with
savages ( uneducated barbarians).  They are searching for something
to make the trip worth while.  So they find this item , be it gold
or water, and rob this world /land of its resources.  As to the
population of the world/land they get a superiority complex and
consider the natives less than normal so they would treat them as
`less than human`. As to a technologically advanced race subjugating
another race, technology is no indication of socio-political
advacements.  As to wondering where this can be seen, just read your
history books... The Europeans over the native americans empires of
the 1400-1500`s . The Europeans were considered the most advanced of
the time and yet they enslaved the Aztecs and Incan people.  For even
a more recent example , try the American Indian..

        So advanced race could come here to conquer instead of
befriend.

        But let's hope when our stellar neighbors show up, they will
be benevolent and we have learned to learn in relative harmony with
each other so that when they arrive they won't find a smoldering,
irradiated planet.
                                        John Hardesty
                                        jhardest@bbncct.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Jul 85 2200-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #282
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 282

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Brunner & Coulson &
                            Generation Ship Stories &
                            Robot Stories,
                    Films - Film Fantasies & Star Trek,
                    Music - SF and Music (3 msgs),
                    Miscellaneous - Plot Outlines &
                            Christopher Lloyd &
                            Quote Source & Alien Visitors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 21 Jul 85 01:48:47-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Looking for `Shockwave Rider'
To: cstvax!br@TOPAZ.ARPA

A new print of Shockwave Rider is already out.  I just got a copy
last week in Cambridge (Massachusetts, not England).  Del Ray SF
(nee Ballentine SF), I think.

--Rob

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Juanita Coulson
Date: 18 Jul 85 14:45:36 GMT

To the best of my recollection, David McDaniel informed me that Man
from U.N.C.L.E. books #11 and #12 (by "Thomas Stratton") featuring
colorless Wisconsin margarine as one of the plot elements--had
actually been written by Buck and Juanita Coulson.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Generation Ships
Date: 21 Jul 85 04:11:17 GMT

    Would anyone on the net who has read some good novels about
ships going on journeys between the stars at sub-light speeds please
send me E-mail with the titles and authors. I have just finished
reading Harlan Ellison and Edward Bryant's "Phoenix Without Ashes"
and would like to read some other similar stories.
    So far I have only read two, but both have been very good. The
other one is called "Marathon" by D. Alexander Smith. It is about
Earth sending out a sub-light ship on a journey to the first meeting
with another race which also has sub-light ships. The journey takes
seven years for the two ships to meet halfway between their
perspective homeworlds.
    "Marathon" starts after the crew, mostly scientists and
diplomats, have been in space for three and a half of those seven
years. It is very interesting how the author handles the effects of
such along trip in close quarters has on the various crewmembers.
    If anyone can take the time to send me some titles and authors I
would really appreciate it.
                                        Kenneth Crist
                                        seismo!cvl!kwc
                                        Computer Vision Lab
                                        University of Maryland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 17:31:56 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA

There have been some responses to a request which appeared some time
ago for stories about robots, but I have not seen any which
attempted to give enough information to cover the various
possibilities, given that the request was somewhat vague.  I am
sorry, but I did not save the original message, nor do I recall
anyone else's responses quoting it.

The term robots is generally taken to refer to self-motile,
approximately human-sized, artificial entities, which may or may not
be self-aware.  Asimov has made one of his multitudinous concurrent
careers writing about robots.  One need only run the card catalog in
the fiction section at the library to discover a wealth of robot
stories.

However, this is a stock character in SF, and most writers in the
genre attempt it at one time or another.  Clifford Simak's *City*
has, I believe, already been mentioned.  There are also a multitude
of "humanoid" stories by Jack Williamson.  Some are very old and
some are very recent, but there was a long interregnum.  I should
point out that "humanoids" are not lovable characters.  Roger
Zelazny has written many stories about artificial intelligences, in
all sizes and guises.  A generally acclaimed one is "Home is the
Hangman," in which opinion I concur.  He has written a large number
of short stories about cyborg, which are combinations of protoplasm
and machine, like the '6 million dollar man' (The concept seems to
have some fascination for him.).

If the qualifications of self-motility or approximate human-size
are removed, the choice of stories grows almost geometrically.
Saberhagen's (others have mentioned in this regard) berserkers is
another whole series of stories, including some novels.  Larry Niven
wrote a novel in which a computer played Tonto to the hero's Lone
Ranger, called *A World Out of Time* (and it's a pretty good book).
Several Heinlein novels feature sentient computers.  Other stories
including artificial intelligences which I found worthwhile include
Roger Zelazny's "For a Breath I Tarry," which appears in the
collection *The Last Defender of Camelot*, which also has the
*marvelous* story, "The Stainless Steel Leech," about a vampire
robot.  Zelazny also wrote *Doorways in the Sand*, which is also
interesting in this regard.

From this category of artificial intelligences, there is a "recent"
series from *Analog* which will appear soon in the bookstores, by
Joseph H. Delany and Marc Stigler.  The heroine, Valentina, is a
computer program.

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: your film fantasies
Date: 21 Jul 85 04:05:16 GMT

> asking anyone/everyone to spout off on what things they always
> wanted to see in films (esp. SF-related) - your visual fantasies,
> if you will. I think the results should be interesting and
> enjoyable for all.

There are two categories of movies I like to see.  The first are
movies that go far beyond the ordinary world.  Personally, I think
"Dragonflight" would make a really primo movie, if you could manage
to really make those dragons fly and live.  (The story is much
smaller and more focused than Dune, has a greater emotional impact,
is much more personal, and requires much less philosophical
background.)  Picture a really beautiful mating flight scene, or the
hatching scene, or flaming thread ...

The other sort of movie I like is the movie near our world, but just
a shade beyond.  I really enjoyed "Blade Runner."  The street
scenes, the sets, the clothes and the technology all look so much
like how 2019 in downtown Los Angeles would really feel.  Notice the
Atari ads in the background, or the Hari Krishnas and the Orthodox
Jew.  Note the international symbol cross walk, with speech
synthesizer.  The visual detail is stunning!  The space station
scene in 2001 gives much the same feel.  Hilton & Ma Bell in orbit.

> (P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?)

Do the Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica episodes count?  They had
Gunfight at the O.K. corral and Shane, respectively.

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Martin Landau trivia
Date: 19 Jul 85 14:52:03 GMT

> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> pepper shakers?"  Now any Trekker knows that, but I didn't know
> that they originally asked Martin Landau to play Spock.  It makes
> sense, since I've

     At Shore Leave VII this year, the guest was DeForest Kelley, a
wonderful speaker. He told a little story of how he was the first
one approached by Gene for the role of Spock. Kelley had worked with
Gene on two other t.v.  pilots, but Kelley was just starting out in
the original Police Story (not the one in the 70's most people
remember) which Gene also had a hand in so Kelley said no. Later
when the second pilot was being shot, Gene wanted Kelley to play the
Doctor, but Paramount had been using Kelley as a bad guy since 1948
and they didn't think he was right to play the kind old doctor.
What changed their minds? Gene showed them a couple of Police Story
episodes and the studio heads hired Kelley for Doctor McCoy, right
after the second pilot was finished shooting. That is why we see no
Doctor McCoy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

                                        Kenneth Crist
                                        kwc@cvl
                                        Computer Vision Lab
                                        University of Maryland

------------------------------

Subject: SF in music
From: S. C. Colbath  <CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1985 16:00 EDT

Can anyone tell me what group wrote/performed the song '2525' (I
think that's the name)?  I heard it on the radio, but the announcer
had already given the name and the performer, and didn't do it again
after the song, so I missed it.  I think it was written sometimes in
the late 1960s.  The first lyric goes 'In the year Twenty-five
Twenty-five', and each succeeding verse adds to it, with the last
being (I think) 'In the year Fifty-five Fifty-five'...  Pardon me if
this one is too simple, it's just a little out of my time...

                                  -Sean

------------------------------

From: asente@Cascade.ARPA
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 19 Jul 85 21:03:48 GMT

knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) writes:
>  A song about video games on a recent Lou Reed album.

Saying "Red Joystick" is about video games is like saying "Little
Red Corvette" is about cars.

(Apologies for disillusioning those who think that "Little Red
Corvette" really IS about cars.)

-paul asente
asente@Cascade.ARPA
decwrl!Glacier!Cascade!asente

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 19 Jul 85 11:45:47 GMT

What about John Varley's Symbs in the 8 worlds series? My books are
at home (natch) but I remember one pair, Barnum and Bailey whose
speciality was composing. All the symbs had great artistic talent of
some kind. B + B's masterwork was catalysed by sex, if I remember
right. They used an emotion-linked synthesiser.

I *LIKE* John Varley stories, even the not_quite_so_good ones.

And for an obscure (SF && music) title - 'I love you, Miss Robot' by
the Buggles (1980ish).

        Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
        ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: plot outlines
Date: 16 Jul 85 22:30:39 GMT

I've been asked to supply information about what a plot outline
consists of, as in, what one might send the editor of a publisher.
It has been suggested that I do so on the net rather than by mail.

Okay.  I've never done an outline in this form.  I have seen one or
two that have gone to editors, and seen the resulting books.  In
general, there is little or no relationship between the outline and
the book that I have seen.

The outline is usually in the form of one paragraph per chapter, and
describes the basic action of that chapter.  As in, "Chapter One:
Zwiggle, an adolescent of the dominant race of planet Juju IV,
discovers a strange being, actually a young, adolescent Earthgirl
from an exploratory vessel.  He immediatly falls in lover with her,
kills her, and eats her for dinner.  Chapter Two: Zwiggle begins to
wonder if he should have eaten her.  His best friend, Zwaggle,
convinces him to try to find the rest of the aliens and they set off
to..."

That kind of thing.

Insofar as I've been able to determine, the outline exists so that
the editor, who has already decided to buy the book because he likes
your intense, Hemmingway-esque style (especially during the
cannible-procreation scenes) can have something to wave at the
publishing committee so they will do what he wants them to (either
agree to publish it, give the author more money for it, make it a
lead title, whatever).

My experience is EXTREMELY limited, so don't take any of this as
gospel.  There may well be publishers who pay attention to the plot
outline, or use it to decide whether or not to buy the book, etc.

For more information, I would suggest asking David Dyer-Bennet
(whereever on the net he is) to please as his lovely and talented
wife, Pamela Dean, to tell us about her experiences.

That's the best I can do.  Hope its some help.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner)
Subject: Re: Christopher LLoyd
Date: 19 Jul 85 14:31:58 GMT

>From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>
>Here is everything that I can remember seeing
>Chris Lloyd in:
>
>Rev. Jim Ignatouski        "Taxi"
>Lord Kruge                 "Star Trek III"
>Doc E. Brown               "Back To The Future"
>Sargeant Schultz           "To Be or Not To Be"
>Frogface                   "The Lady In Red"
>psycho patient             "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

Well, I may have been on drugs (or may be now, for that matter), but
I seem to remember him being in a very bad remake of "The Lone
Ranger," as the head baddie.  Jeez, that's really embarassing 1) to
forget if he really was in there or not, and 2) to admit to having
shelled out money to see that turkey of a movie!

Roy Turner
School of Information and Computer Science
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Banzai quote
Date: 22 Jul 85 03:23:37 GMT

Alright net-landers.  I'm almost 1000% positive that the quote
"wherever you go, there you are" comes from the lips of Reverend Jim
in Taxi.  Am I insane, or are you people afraid to attribute this
great comment to its' original speaker?
                                   Jonathan D. Trudel
                                arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa
                        uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 19 Jul 85 21:23:56 GMT

> Is anyone familiar with any novels or stories in which the taking
> of human (or other sentient) slaves by an advanced race is treated
> with some degree of depth? I can't recall any right off-hand. If
> so, what reasons are presented for such activities?

Well, it wasn't *very* deep, bit I'll recommend Jack Lovejoy's "The
Hunters".  It is a novel about an alien invasion of the earth by
superior aliens.  They essentially convert earth into a game
preserve, and use humans both as game and as "hunting dogs".

I'll also recommend David Gerrold's The War with the Cthorr series.
It is about an alien invasion which (a character conjectures) is due
to the invader's planet becoming uninhabitable.

I think that there are essentially two plausible categories for
alien invasion of the earth.  Recreation (or insanity) (a-la "The
Hunters") and refuge from disaster (a-la The War with the Cthorr
series).

Earlier articles point out that we have no material wealth to offer
an advanced technology, and slave labor seems ridiculously expensive
to a technically advanced society.

Living space might be a reason, but would require an unreasonably
advanced transport technology to make it feasible and at the same
time have the technology level low enough to preclude easier
solutions to population pressure (such as Ringworlds).  (The
exception is when cost is no object, eg, the aliens need to escape
from a supernova or the like.)

The notion of humans as pets, game, or objects of sadism or
fanaticism is, of course, old hat in the sf field, with innumerable
examples.  A somewhat less common related notion (that doesn't
directly imply subjugation) is humankind as objects of tourism
(which might be worse than subjugation :-).

(Note that by "insanity" above, I simply mean behavior that is
radically non-optimal for survival or efficiency.  (I realize that
with this broad a classification of insanity, I myself am insane,
and recreation can be considered a subset of insanity.))

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jul 85 2058-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #283
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 283

Today's Topics:

         Books - Biggle & McCollum & Age Differences in SF,
         Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Peter Douglas &
                 Dune,
         Music - SF and Music (7 msgs),
         Miscellaneous - Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 12:49:38 EDT
From: Melinda Berkman <mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA>
Subject: arts in SF (not SF in music)

I am surprised that no one mentioned Lloyd Biggle Jr. in the
discussion of the arts in sf.  Several of his books deal with art or
music themes.  I read them years ago from a library and don't
remember them well, but I seem to recall at least two like this.
"The Small Still Sound of Trumpets" dealt with the effects of
musical innovation on a society (I think this was a sort of 'how can
we get around the Prime Directive' type story).  "The Light That
Never Was" answered the question "If an animal creates art, does
that make it an artist?" and extended the discussion to treatment of
non-human sentients by a dominant human race.  I remember thinking
at the time that the author HAD to be an art major to have written
such art-oriented work.  There might have been one or two other
books.  The only book of Biggle's that I've found used is
"Monument", which doesn't deal with art at all but which I've
enjoyed every time I reread it and would heartily recommend.
Unfortunately I think that all his work is out of print.

Melinda Berkman (mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:40:23 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Life Probe sequel

The Universe works in mysterious ways.  The day after I posted a
message identifying the author of Life Probe as Michael McCollum, I
went to the bookstore and...what's this?  A new book by Michael
McCollum?  It's called Procyon's Promise, and it's a sequel to Life
Probe (sequel, not continuation; the story takes place 300 years
after the events in Life Probe.)  I bought it.  It's good.  Read and
enjoy.
                                marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: SF using lover's age differences
Date: 21 Jul 85 15:39:22 GMT

> Varley's men are almost always twice (or more) the age of the
> women they end up with...It's not something I mind, it's just
> something I found curious... Has anyone else noticed this or am I
> just imaging it?

Larry Niven tends to have a great age mismatch between his lovers,
also.  For instance, in Ringworld we have Teela Brown and Louis Wu.
And who can forget the lady with the horrible long name that Louis
finally gets?  (I'm not at home, so can't look it up.)  There are
other examples, also.

What other SF writers have used this device?

                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: Back to The Future (SPOILER) wrt ``Multiverse causality''
Date: 21 Jul 85 03:33:41 GMT

                  *** SPOLIER SPOILER SPOILER ***

> The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't
> that it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use
> them wrong.  Marty changed both universes.  The changes to the
> universe he returned to were obvious: his parents had different
> personalities, he had a new truck, etc...  However, he also
> changed the universe he left.  He invented rock and roll
> (essentially).  While he is playing Jonny B Goode at the dance (in
> 1955), the guitarist with the broken arm (whose name was something
> Berry) calls his brother "Chuck" to tell him about this great new
> style of music that Marty is playing.  This means that universe 1
> (where Marty started) shouldn't have had any rock music in it
> because Marty wasn't around in 1955 to let Chuck know about it.
> Of course, it did because otherwise Marty wouldn't have known the
> song (or have been in a rock band).

   Nah, Marty I going back in time is actually Marty I going to the
1950's in the-universe-in-which-Marty-I-goes-to-the-50's (ie,
universe II).  This is the same universe that will contain the
``Lone Pine Mall'', etc.  In universe II, Marty I is the inventor of
rock.  Back in universe I, in its own 1950's, events proceeded as we
know them.

   My question is, what happens to Marty II when he takes off in the
DeLorean for the ``past?''  Does he go to the 1950's of universe I
-- or somewhen else entirely?  Off hand, I'd have to vote for the
latter; a closed loop in the multiverse seems to be a pretty nasty
violation of causality in the system.

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 01:03:45 pdt
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Back to the Future

I just saw "Back to the Future".  It is slightly similar to
"Wargames" and to "Buckaroo Bonzai", but better than either.  I
can't wait to see it again.  Cheers.  -s

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 85 09:15:04 PDT (Monday)
From: JOConnell.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Peter V. Douglas

This excerpt is taken from the Monday, July 22, 1985 edition of the
Los Angeles Times. It is in an article by Times Staff writer Deborah
Caulfield. The article is an interview with producer Peter Vincent
Douglas ("Fletch", "The Final Countdown", "Something Wicked This Way
Comes").

"In addition, he has projects in various stages at various studios,
although many share a common genre--science fiction.

"'I really (italicized) love science fiction,' he confessed. 'I just
got my first writing assignment at (20th Century) Fox to do a remake
of "The Day The Earth Stood Still", plus Michael Phillips ("Close
Encounters of the Third Kind") and I are working on a space comedy
for Columbia and "The End of Eternity" (based on an Isaac Asimov
story) at Tri-Star.'

"Douglas paused for a moment, perhaps a bit surprised at the number
of projects, then reiterated, 'I cannot tell you what a pleasure it
is to finally be on my own.'"

End of excerpt.

Jim O'Connell (JOConnell.es@Xerox)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 09:45:29 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #274 (Mad Max)

If you recognised scenes from Dune, I am surprised you didn't
recognise the full moon shot.  I haven't seen Thunderdome, but the
full moon is certainly from Dune, where Paul looks up at the moon,
inexplicably, until he asks the Fremen what the mouse-shape is
called -- "Muad Dib".  (I said "'Mouse shape'?  Mouse shape?!  What
mouse shape?!?"  I guess we were seeing all those moon shots so we
could remember the shape of the "man-in-the-moon" sort of visual
feature.  Well I sure didn't...)

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF in music (Brian May)
Date: 20 Jul 85 15:13:41 GMT

> From: tellab3!thoth   (marcus hall)
> The song by Queen is called '39.  It is on the album "A Night at
> the Opera".  [...]  It's a favorite of many people I know.  I
> didn't expect something like this from Queen, but supposedly Brian
> May, I believe, who wrote the song dabbles into astronomy.

Dabbles? He has a PhD!! Sources I have seen differ as to whether the
degree is in Physics or Astronomy, but I'm not sure that it really
matters.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: uvacs!hsd@topaz.arpa (Harry S. Delugach)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 18 Jul 85 17:07:21 GMT

>>I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen
>>many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find
>>surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF
>>content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF
>>writing.
>
>I concur.  And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such might
>be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

Perhaps these are more in the realm of fantasy (as opposed to
science fiction), but Anne McCaffrey's Dragon series generally
employ music and musicians, and a couple of them have been centered
around music.

Sometimes music which is unheard by the reader can create
interesting moods, since the reader's imagination supplies its own
sounds to the music's (written) description.

Harry S. Delugach
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
UUCP: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!hsd        CSNET: hsd@virginia

------------------------------

From: bunkerb!mary@topaz.arpa (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 19 Jul 85 12:08:24 GMT

> From: kdale@MINET-VHN-EM
>>I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>>conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>>written SF in which music played a dominant theme?
>
> One story that I haven't seen mentioned is:
>   Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?)
>

No, it was Anne McCaffrey, actually.

Another example of musically-oriented SF is the short story "The
Tunesmith", by Lloyd Biggle, Jr.  It tells of a man named Erlin Baq
who writes jingles for commercials which become popular for
themselves.  There's lots more to it than that, but it would take a
while to describe.  It's a very good story.


M. Shurtleff
....decvax!ittatc!bunker!bunkerb!mary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 85 12:13:48 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Music in SF, SF in Music

More Music In SF:

"Nothing But Gingerbread Left" Cyril Kornbluth (the utlimate jingle
  strikes again)
"A Work of Art" James Blish, found among other places in PERCHANCE
  TO DREAM (anthology of art & SF) [ if memory serves]
"The Ninth Symphony of Ludwig Van Beethoven and Other Lost Songs",
  Carter Scholz
"White Hole" (by yours truly), ASCENTS OF WONDER, ed Dave Gerrold
"The Education of Drusilla Strange", Theodore Sturgeon (music
  figures heavily in this)
"The Big Flash" Norman Spinrad (atomic rock)

THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION, "Empire Star", NOVA, Samuel Delaney
  (protagonists all are musicians [ flute/axe, ocarina, sensory
  syrinx respectively] )

The above topic has LOTS of entries - I don't know what the mystery
is all about...

More SF in Music:

THE ROAD GOES EVER ON, Flanders & Swann -- settings of Tolkein songs
  Shadowfax -- a rock group
a song on an early Tom Rapp ( of Pearls Before Swine) album which
  seems to be a Bradbury story [spacemen falling into the atmosphere]

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun 21 Jul 85 17:34:21-PDT
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: Music in SF

Several folks have mentioned the lyrics of the British group
Hawkwind, but I haven't seen any mention of the SF story written by
Michael Moorcock around the group!  Moorcock himself appears as
Moorlock the Acid Sorceror; the group faces some nasties and tries
to save the world.  Quite entertaining and more enthusiastic than
much of his stuff.  Oh, its called "The Time of the Hawklords" and
was written with Michael Butterworth, C. 1976.

Doug

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan D.)
Subject: sf in music
Date: 22 Jul 85 01:45:21 GMT

Boy, thinking about this one really brings me back.  Back in the
mid-70s there was an album called 'The Intergalactic Touring Band'
that was a group effort album.  There were many people who
contributed to the album, but the only one I remember is Meat Loaf.
Anyhow, the album was a collection of songs, all being sf in nature.
There were songs about a lot of things, and these are the ones I
remember:

  1) the IGTB theme song
  2) intergalactic zoos
  3) salesmen that sold robots with the latest Vibracon Globes,
  4) galactic warriors telling their tales

and so on.  I haven't seen the album in years since my brother hid
it because I played it so much.  It was a really nifty album, and it
came with a small storybook, and the record sleeve was a futuristic
order form.  Does anyone else remember this one?

                                   Jonathan D. Trudel
                                arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa
                        uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: Mon 22 Jul 85 10:15:15-PDT
From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: _Crystal Singer_

> One story that I haven't seen mentioned is:
> Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?)

_Crystal Singer_ was written by Anne MacCaffrey.

BTW, Does anyone have the complete lyrics of Heinlein's "Green Hills
of Earth" Thanks.

Aline

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens
Date: 19 Jul 85 13:47:19 GMT

Possible answers to the question "Where are the aliens?" (most of
which have appeared in numerous SF stories):

(a) They are here.  They're just clever enough to disguise
      themselves or conceal themselves or avoid capture.  (Certainly
      very reasonable; human spies can go undetected for years, even
      in the most suspicious of environments.  Non-humanoids would
      find this more difficult, but they could easily observe from a
      short distance.)

(b) Any race sufficiently advanced to have achieved inter-stellar
      travel has also achieved "civilization" in the sense that they
      are above interfering with the development of other species.
      Therefore they let us develop in peace and stay out of our way
      until we have evolved past animalistic aggression.

(c) Some race is sufficiently advanced to maintain inter-stellar
      peace, at least in the local region of space.  Maybe there are
      a lot of nasties out there, but the local rulers believe in
      non-interference and have sufficient clout to enforce the
      policy.

(d) Several races are actively at war in space.  Either earth is in
      a demilitarized zone, or it is militarily unimportant.  The
      warfare takes up the time and effort of participants and they
      don't waste energy on planets that are no current threat.

(e) Space races are terrified of humans for some reason.  Or of
      earth in general (e.g. because there are numerous diseases
      here, because something nasty lives here secretly, etc.).

(f) FTL travel is impossible.  Inter-stellar travel requires the
      colony ship approach or suspended animation.  Everything is
      subject to relativistic effects like time dilation.  This
      makes exploration much more difficult and time-consuming.  It
      just so happens we haven't been found yet; indeed, many races
      may decide that inter-stellar colonization is economically
      pointless and may do their best to live at home.

(g) Earth is the only planet where life (or technological life) ever
      developed...or at least the only planet in the neighbourhood.

I've probably left out a few explanations from the list.  Variations
are many; take (c), for example, inter-stellar peace-keepers who
prevent nasties from interfering.  These could be benevolent beings;
malevolent beings who wipe out any race that ventures into space; a
doomsday ship that was programmed by someone to hang around Jupiter
and shoot anything that happens by; a natural or artificial barrier
that makes our region of space difficult to enter; and so on.

Okay guys, hop on the bandwagon and add to the list.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jul 85 2130-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #284
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 284

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Heinlein,
                 Films - Cocoon & Explorers,
                 Music - Music and SF (4 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Aliens (2 msgs) &
                         Spoilers &
                         Christopher Lloyd & 
                         Quote Source

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:15:10 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Heinlein's Glaroon

>>From: Alvin Wong <RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA>
>>Someone asked what was the "Glaroon" in a couple of
>>Heinlein's stories.  I did not see an answer to this.

>From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
>I was the one, and no one has responded to me, yet.  The two
>places in which the references appear are in _JOB_ and in a
>short-story called _They_.

Funny, I don't recall it in *Job*, but for sure it's in the ending
of #otB.  I looked for my copy of *Glory Road*, so that I could
verify, because I'm pretty sure that this is the critter that the
protagonist causes to swallow itself.  But since the book appears to
have grown a pair of legs (or something) . . .  Maybe somebody else
can check it with that info.  I'd bet there's something on that
planet (with the six-legged horses, etc.)  that was called
"Glaroon".
               Paula%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 22 Jul 1985 11:42:34-PDT
From: goun%whoaru.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Heisenberg may have slept here)
Subject: "Cocoon" query

I finally got to see "Cocoon" yesterday, and came away sorely
puzzled at some obvious consequences of the ending.  Can anyone out
there enlighten me?

** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER **

The boat captain (whose name I've forgotten) is left floating in a
rubber raft when the "Arcturians" and the old people are lifted up
to the mothership in his boat.  Presumably, he survives.  A little
later, though, we see the funeral scene, suggesting that the old
folks are thought to have drowned.

Wouldn't our hero return to civilization to find himself charged
with thirty counts of manslaughter, at the very least?

Should I put this down to another case of Hollywood playing fast and
loose with reason, or am I missing something?

Roger Goun
ARPA:    goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}
         !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
         100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:     (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:59:18 CST
From: Doug Monk <bro@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re : Explorers and the 9-volt space drive

First, a micro-review :

I attended the movie with three friends.  I really liked it.  The
two friends who were SF fans thought it was too silly.  The third
just thought it was silly, but thinks all SF is silly.  I know,
maybe it is silly, but I found it immensely entertaining : it is
humourous and takes unexpected turns, like a roller-coaster.

End of review.

*** mild spoiler warning for following discussion ***

In SF-LOVERS V10, #275, someone asks the very cogent question :

>where does a 9-volt battery get the energy required to dig 5'
>diameter holes in the ground?

I believe people who like a particular movie are more willing to
rationalize on its behalf, but just because you don't like one,
don't be nit-picky.  The circuit being used as a space-drive was
alien to the kids building it.  They didn't understand it, and
neither presumably would we.  The fact that there was a nine-volt
battery in the circuit does not necessarily mean that ALL the power
being channeled through the device comes from the battery.  If I
told you to build an automobile without explaining to you all of the
principles involved, you might have some mistaken ideas about the
end result. After all, my pickup has a twelve-volt battery in it,
and still manages 55 mph on the freeway quite nicely, thank you.

*** end mild spoiler ***

There is a sequence in the movie which has been made into a video,
which I have seen on MTV.  I thought it was quite funny, myself.

If you don't mind a little silly in your soup, you might like
_Explorers_.

Doug Monk (bro@rice.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:44:36 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Music in SF (or, Notes From All Over)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned "A Work of Art" by James Blish.
It concerns the revivification, as a scientific experiment, of the
composer Richard Strauss in the year 2161.  The arts, especially
music, are central to the story.  It is probably the best thing
Blish ever wrote and one of the most moving stories I have ever
read.  It was first published as "Art Work" in the July '56 SF
Stories; if you don't have a pile of 30-year-old magazines around
the house, it can be found in the Blish collections Galactic Cluster
and New Dreams This Morning, and in numerous anthologies.

                          marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 22 Jul 1985 14:31:14-PDT
From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (John Redford)
Subject: music in SF: "Tintagel"

Two other SF novels heavily involved with music are "On Wings of
Song" by Thomas Disch, and "Tintagel" by Paul Cook.  The premise in
OWoS is that with mechanical aid a good singer can release her/his
soul from the body and flutter off to Nirvana.  A Midwestern farm
boy yearns to become a singer, and has many satiric adventures on
the way.  Disch gets in lots of (undeserved!) jabs at Iowa and
America in general.  He writes like a non-luuded-out Kurt Vonnegut
and is always worth reading, but usually depressing.

"Tintagel" is unusual in that the music in it is all modern
classical.  The idea here is that if you are infected with a certain
plague, music has the literal power to take you to another world.
You disappear in a small "Poof!" of inrushing air, and appear in the
world evoked by the piece.  The more familiar the music the easier
it is to vanish, so traditional classical music and popular music
have been banned.  People still crave music of some form, so
twentieth century classical is revived, since no one but a few
connoiseurs knows it.  People are still disappearing, though, so our
hero (who has the ability to return from the evoked worlds) has to
bring them back.  The premise is kind of interesting, but not well
handled.  The author obviously loves modern classical, and resorted
to this somewhat tortuous device to work it into a story.

John Redford

------------------------------

From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie)
Subject: Re: Music in Science Fiction
Date: 25 Jul 85 13:03:52 GMT

Then there's the short story from Norman Spinrad's `No Direction
Home' anthology, titled `The Big Flash' (I think), wherein a rock
group called The Four Horsemen get to be quite important.

                         **** SPOILER ****

  They live out their name by giving a concert televised world-wide
that psyches everyone into setting of their entire nuclear arsenals
(hence the title).  That they're going to do something like that is
fairly obvious from the start (although their manager only sees
$$$), so I don't think this is much of a spoiler; the power of the
tale is in the way Spinrad tells it.  I'm sure he was thinking of
The Doors!

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Sxyzyskzyik)
Subject: Music in Science Fiction
Date: 22 Jul 85 18:48:16 GMT

Ah, well, Jack Vance's Anome trilogy (the first volume has also been
titled _The_Faceless_Man_; _The_Brave_Free_Men_; _The_Asutra_) has a
musician (and even the son of a musician) as a protagnist, and in
fact, not only has his life been shaped by his career and his
origins, but his survival in the third volume depends upon his
musical training.  [Quiz for Vance fans is in my name above.]

If we expand the topic to include fantasy, there's Patricia C.
Wrede's _The_ Harp_of_Imach_Thyssel_.  There are also songs of
significance in Pamela C.  Dean's _The_Secret_Country_, and there
are these cardinals singing at interesting times.  (birds, not
bishops)

Anne McCaffrey probably has a couple of science fiction books in
which music plays an important part, based upon titles.

Thomas Disch's _On_the_Wings_of_Song_.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: What 'they' would come here to get...
Date: 21 Jul 85 15:52:29 GMT

Let's not forget the (supposed) reason that the Europeans came to
the new world--to "save souls".

(Yes, I know that in many cases that was only a cover for rape,
slavery and plunder.  But many really believed it.  Rightly or
wrongly--I think wrongly, but I'm a pagan, so what do I know?)

Suppose the race in question felt they had the secret of universal
truth, and the only way to live and/or worship some sort of supreme
being.  Suppose they had the resources to make the trip.  You better
believe they'd do it.  And they might not be very nice about it,
either.  Fanaticism has produced a lot of woe on earth.  There is no
reason to suppose it would not do the same in this case.

Are there any SF stories out on this sort of scenario?

                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 10:19 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Why leave home at all?

I think this discussion of "What aliens would come to Earth for"
brings a number of very good points to light that need to be
considered.  I like it primarily for its reverse question "Why would
we leave Earth?"

First of all, the idea of water and slaves seems to be fairly
absurd, although I do like the artistic servitude concept.  Sort of
like Niven's Thrints and their Tnuctip slaves.  The Thrints were so
used to controlling people that they forgot how to think and *had*
to have the Tnuctips do it.  But all good things must come to an
end.

Pournelle also wrote a very plausible slavery idea in Jannisaries
and the sequel Clan And Crown where the aliens were smuggling drugs.
They snag some humans and plant them on a planet saying, "We'll be
back in a year, have the drugs ready."  The stories are very well
thought out.  Quite enjoyable.  I'm hoping for a third book.

At any rate, the concept of aliens being as far ahead of us as we
are to an ape is very logical.  It is unlikely that any race as
unstable as we seem to be would make it into space for any
significant length of time.  And even if we did it would probably be
militaristic and quite dominating (at least if we went now it would
be). I think we need to grow up a bit first.

The point is that there are no short term goals in space.  If it
takes a year to get to Mars then you can forget just about every
short term profit beyond the moon.  Granted that mining will have
some benefit, but there is some work to be done first.  Another long
term project.

Now, what long term projects would be useful to a space faring race?
Consider the fact that this planet is doomed.  It will not last
forever.  At the rate we are polluting it and using up its
resources, it may not last another century.  Where will mankind go?
My idea is to get all the hazardous industries off planet.  Anything
that could seriously jeopardize the ecology should be isolated from
it.  Even so that is merely a postponement of the inevitable.  The
planet will die.  So will the sun, and most likely everything else.
If Mankind is to survive the destruction of this solar system, and
even, dare we think it, the next big bang, he will need to be able
to live in space.  For a *long* time.  We will only be able to find
habitable planets for so long.

Granted that this requires some changes.  We need to beat the
lightspeed barrier.  We need to get a global thought pattern going.
Mankind needs to consider the race instead of the individual
(although not to the individual's exclusion).  We need to think of
the future instead of the present or we will all be revealed as the
hedonistic little apes that we are.

Why would aliens come to visit?  What could they want with us?  They
can get the tv from space, and hopefully they would have something
better.  All the elements we have can be found elsewhere.  And we
are dangerous!

Consider yourself as a starship captain.  Consider that a nuke could
probably blow a hole in just about ANYTHING.  The only way I would
land is if I was quick and hidden, or had an entire invasion force.
And why in the galaxy would anyone take Earth over?  Sure it's a
nice place, but heck, we've torn the place up like the squatters we
are.  If they leave us alone, chances are we will destroy ourselves.
Nope, aliens will play hit and run (like Doug Adams saying that
alien teenagers buzz the planet for fun) or they won't bother.

So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt.  If
Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars.  There is nowhere
else to go.  It may be viewed as running from one problem into
another, but it is the only choice, aside from racial suicide.  Does
anyone want to be a dinosaur?
                                           Jon Pugh
                                           pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 03:40:50 PDT
From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der Mouse)
Subject: LadyHawke and spoilers (***LADYHAWKE SPOILER***)

There has been a lot of argument (flame? |-) recently here about
spoilers.  I recall one person who picked on a review of LadyHawke
which gave away the nature of the curses as something which should
have been labeled spoiler but wasn't.  Well, LadyHawke came to our
local repertory theatre and I quote from their programme (for July
15):

7:00 LADYHAWKE
     D: Richard Donner (1985 U.S.A.) 121 min. (14)
     Michelle Pfeiffer, Rutger Hauer, John Wood,
     Matthew Broderick.
Set in the Middle Ages and based on mythology of that time.  A
beautifully photographed tale of a romance between a Princess
(bewitched into becoming a hawk by day) and her suitor, Navarre, who
is cursed to be a wolf by night.  An impish, Puck-like boy thief
(Matthew Broderick) is the go-between for these 'bewitched' lovers.
A magical, fun-filled adventure that is refreshingly well done.

     So it seems sf-lovers reviewers aren't the only guilty ones.

                                der Mouse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 18:35:50 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Christopher Lloyd
To: dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa

I have not seen any comments on this list, so I'll throw 2 cents:

>From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>
>Here is everything that I can remember seeing Chris Lloyd in:

>"Taxi" "Star Trek III" "Back To The Future" "To Be or Not To Be"
>"The Lady In Red" "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

I recently rented "The Lady in Red" (Gene Wilder) and do not
remember Christopher Lloyd or a "Frogface".  But everyone seems to
forget (and it is easy) the infamous Major Bartholomew Cavendish (a
horribly made over copy of the original standard villainous outlaw
Butch Cavendish) from the recent Lone Ranger movie.

        /JBL

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!regard@topaz.arpa (Adrienne Regard)
Subject: "Where ever you go. . ."
Date: 22 Jul 85 15:32:45 GMT

"Where ever you go, there you are" has been around for literally
decades.  The now-condemned Showboat Theatre in Seattle, Washington
had this written on it's graffiti wall, along with "No man is a
nylon, a tire unto himself" "less is more" and "Back in 15 minutes -
Godot", where it has been for well over 20 years, to my certain
knowledge, and probably longer.

The credit does not go to Reverend Jim, the "Taxi" writers, Back to
the Future or whatever.  It's much older than that.

Adrienne Regard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jul 85 2152-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #285
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Jul 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 285

Today's Topics:

             Films - SF Westerns & The Black Cauldron,
             Music - SF and Music (6 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Aliens & Generation Ships &
                     Christopher Lloyd & Cuteness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (Sxyzyskzyik)
Subject: Science Fiction Westerns
Date: 22 Jul 85 19:10:59 GMT

"Westworld" is obvious, and "Star Wars" is good too, but "Outland"
was really "High Noon" with a few changes and fancy sets.  There are
also Star Trek episodes (and it's amazing how many distant planets
look like Vasquez Rocks) & novels that are westerns.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: "The Black Cauldron"
Date: 21 Jul 85 01:52:32 GMT

     Disney's animated films will always, in my view, suffer from
the fact that I compare them with "Pinocchio".  No one has ever made
an animated film up to the technical standards of "Pinocchio".  Some
of the contemporary Disney films came close, and "The Secret of
NIMH" is the nearest modern equivalent, but their animation just
isn't up to "Pinocchio".

     Which brings us to "The Black Cauldron".  Fool that I was, I
thought that, since Disney's animators had spoken of this film as a
return to the old standards, and since they took about a decade to
make it, "The Black Cauldron" might be in the same technical
ballpark as "Pinocchio".  The first shot, an incredibly bad
multiplane camera effect, dispelled that delusion at once.  While
most of the other effects animation was of much higher quality, and
"The Black Cauldron" had some very fine moments, it does not recall
the Disney of the forties so much as the Disney of the early
sixties.  "The Black Cauldron" looks much more like "The Sword in
the Stone" than "Pinocchio".

     Technical matters aside, "The Black Cauldron" is not at all
bad, but neither is it the miraculous rebirth of quality animated
films that the Disney advertising people would have us believe.  The
story, drastically compacted into less than 90 minutes from a four
volume children's fantasy by Lloyd Alexander (which was based on
certain themes from Celtic mythology), concerns a young lad, Taran,
and his comrades, who must find and destroy the titular cauldron
before it is discovered by the villainous Horned King.  The cauldron
allows its possessor to revivify the dead, turning them into an army
of zombies.

     "The Black Cauldron" benefits from some strong points and
suffers from too many weak ones.  One of the worst things about it
is that the heroic characters are not very well animated and are
fundamentally dull. Comparison of their facial expressions to those
in Will Vinton's Claymation films shows how poorly they duplicate
real humans.  Another technical point: one can invariably tell which
objects are to be used in a shot and which are merely background.

     A further deficit is a over-commitment to the cute and the
marketable.  One of the good guys is Gurgi, a shaggy something.
Gurgi is calculatingly cute, yet I couldn't help liking him, and the
film would have been all right on this count if it had stopped while
it was ahead.  However, a bunch of cutesy fairies appearing later
were too saccharine for my tastes.  I strongly suspect that, six
months from now, I will have had far more than I can take of Gurgi
dolls and Gurgi lunchboxes and Gurgi pillows and Gurgi cereal and
Gurgi notebooks and Gurgi teeshirts and Gurgi toilet paper and an
ocean of other Gurgi paraphernalia, much in the manner of the
oversold E.T.  Now, unaffected by these waves of greed, I can
appreciate the little sucker.

     The compression of the story cut out some characters and
reduced the roles of others.  A bard who accompanies the heros
serves no purpose but comic relief of a very tired sort.  Also,
removal of an important character forced the writers (eight or nine
of them - compression isn't easy) into compromising a rather
fundamental point of the saga, greatly softening the resulting film.
The compression wasn't all bad, as the story does move briskly.
Unfortunately, without some of the background material, certain
actions of the heros seem exceptionally foolish.  The core of the
story, a good one, remains.

     The best thing about the film is the villains.  They are
superb, especially the Horned King.  His nasty retainers and charnel
house surroundings offer him excellent support, and set the
nightmare schedule of the younger viewers for the next couple of
months.  The animators rarely go wrong when they are dealing with
the bad guys.

     "The Black Cauldron" is photographed in 70mm, which implies
widescreen.  This resulted in a lot of extra work for the animators,
and a couple years of delay.  Not surprisingly, the results are
similar to those of most live action films shot in widescreen.
Action and spectacle shots look better, intimate shots involving a
couple of characters talking together suffer from irrelevant
borders.  Fortunately, more of the film benefits from the wide
format than suffers form it.

     The voices are generally good.  Except for a brief prologue
spoken by John Huston, they are not overly familiar, a great failing
of recent Disney animated films.  (Eva Gabor as the voice of Miss
Bianca!  Really, now!)  There are a few well known names behind the
voices.  John Hurt isn't a bit recognizable as the Horned King, but
speaks superbly.  Freddie Jones does what can be done with the
mediocre lines of the bard.  John Byner adds immeasurably to the
character of Gurgi with his vocal interpretation, almost a textbook
example of matching character to voice.  (The order it was actually
done, by the way.  Record first, draw later, thus ensuring
synchronisation of voice to lips.)

     "The Black Cauldron" is a must for animation fans and parents
of not-too-small children, with said little folks in tow.  It
figures to be the divorced father movie of the summer.  General
audiences will probably appreciate it, but are unlikely to respond
with vigorous enthusiasm.  Considering its tremendous cost, the
Disney people will probably be releasing it for years to come before
they show a profit on their investment.  Do your bit for the future
of animation and see "The Black Cauldron".

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Music, sometimes known as filk
Date: 22 Jul 85 21:51:40 GMT

>       Some of the best writers/performers of this genre are
> Leslie Fish, Julia Ecklar, Juanita Coulson, Joey Shoji, Clif Flynt
> & Mary Ellen Wessels, the LA Filkharmonics (In space no one can
> hear you sing)...
>       Marina Fournier
>       Xerox Artifical Intelligence Systems
>       Pasadena, CA
>       <fournier.pasa@Xerox>

    You left out my favorite filker, Cynthia McQuillan.  She has a
lot of very good stuff out.
                                   John Allen
                                   Ohio State University
                                   (UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen)
                                   (CSNet: allen@ohio-state)

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 23 Jul 1985 14:30:08-PDT
From: francini%argus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (This Space Available for Rent
From: or Lease)
Subject: SF-related music

There was a popular song out in the summer/fall of '83 entitled
'Major Tom', put out by some group in Germany.  I have the single of
it, (at home of course,) and it has the song recorded in English on
one side and German on the other.

Oh yes: the full title was "Major Tom (Coming Home)".

It is definitely an SF song, and a video that was made for it that
MTV showed for a while had most of the song's action taking place in
orbit around the Earth.

Just my $.02 worth...

John Francini
arpa:  francini@Argus.DEC
usenet: ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-argus!francini

------------------------------

From: allynh@ucbvax.ARPA (Allyn Hardyck)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 23 Jul 85 01:29:12 GMT

asente@Cascade.UUCP (Paul Asente) writes:
>>A couple of other sci-fi related songs are:
>>  A song about video games on a recent Lou Reed album.
>Saying "Red Joystick" is about video games is like saying "Little
>Red Corvette" is about cars.

I think he was referring to "Down At The Arcade".

------------------------------

From: ecrcvax!snoopy@topaz.arpa (Sebastian Schmitz)
Subject: Re: SF in music (Brian May)
Date: 22 Jul 85 21:19:19 GMT

This is not true. Brian May did do some research in the area and he
has published a paper on the "Motion of Interstellar Dust". He was
working on his thesis for his PhD but never got it published or
accepted because he did not finish it.  Too much time taken playing
for Queen. I have this on reliable source (himself, in fact).
Actually he is still very interested in astronomy/astrophysics.

He is however a big fan of SF (as is Roger Taylor - Queens drummer)
as witnessed on the "News of the World" cover and Roger Taylors "Fun
in Space" album (and cover). Also of course the Flash Gordon film
soundtrack got underway mainly because Brian got hooked on it and
wrote most of the songs. Also he did a hard rock version of the
Starfleet theme song (with Van Halen, Fred Mandel (I think)). To be
heard to be believed.

Incidentally whoever put the original query in: I replied to you
without following up - perhaps you could repost my reply to you to
the net, so that other people could take advantage of my posting. I
reckon I put quite a few pointers to SF music in.

Thanks,
  Love,
  Sebastian (Snoopy)
  !mcvax!unido!ecrcvax!snoopy

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!gdh@topaz.arpa (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 22 Jul 85 18:55:39 GMT

Yet more examples of music/ian being a dominant theme in an SF/F
novel are:

(i) 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn'  (Short story)
(ii) 'The Road to Corley'

Both are by Richard Cowper and are published by Pan in the UK.  I
think 'Piper...' is in a book called 'The Guardians' I'd appreciate
help in finding a copy of this as I really enjoyed the story.

Gareth.
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gdh
DARPA: gdh%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gdh@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4146
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 23 Jul 85 21:24:05 GMT

On the topic of music in SF, I have a different sort of example -
the Japanese animated series Mospeada.  The title of each of the 25
episodes includes a musical term or a reference to musical
performance.  Some examples, with the musical reference marked -
        1. *Prelude* to Attack
        6. Young Girl *Blues*
        7. *Ragtime* for a Dead Hero
        9. Lost World *Fugue*
        10. *Requiem* of the Battlefield
        25. *Symphony* of Light
One of the main characters, Yellow Belmont, is a rock star and his
performances are used as cover for the resistance groups attacks
against the aliens who have invaded and control Earth.

Unfortunately, the cut up version of this show now being seen in the
U.S. as part of Robotech, along with episodes from the unrelated
shows Macross and Southern Cross, has entirely new titles and a new
sound track.  Yellow's character was mostly cut out, since he
performs as a woman and frequently dresses and acts femininely - and
you can't allow that in a "children's" show.  They even changed the
character's name, adding a line about Yellow being just a stage
name.
                        Mary Anne Espenshade
                        ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 23 Jul 85 20:16:21 GMT

> Is anyone familiar with any novels or stories in which the taking
> of human (or other sentient) slaves by an advanced race is treated
> with some degree of depth?
>                                             Jeff Rogers
>                                             jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

This is probably not quite what you were after, but hopefully still
relevant.  In SUNDIVER and STARTIDE RISING, David Brin has
postulated an interesting idea: the enslavement of an entire race.
(Has anyone seen this idea before? If so, where?)  The "advanced"
races were basically fighting over the "rights" to own the human
race.  After all, it's silly to allow a violent, un-monitored race
to exist.  Who knows what they might do?  The only reason humanity
escaped was that none of the races would allow any other to have
them.  (flames to /dev/null, please, if my memory is faulty.)

Now, this sounds highly plausible to me.  Wouldn't humanity benefit
from having access to the *entire* scientific, artistic, and
philosophical output of another intelligent species?  And what if
they were telepathic?  Then what wouldn't we do to control them?

Taking it as a given that humans have a different perspective on
life, the universe, and everything (sorry, Doug) from our
hypothetical aliens, we might have something(s) they would kill (or
even cross interstellar space) to get.

As to expense; once you collect a sufficient sample, you cart them
to your own system, give them a "game preserve," and they will be
self supporting.  You just quietly skim a few off the top every year
to fill your own needs.  (Now, does anyone want to discuss the large
number of disappearances every year on this planet?)  BTW, does
anyone know just how many people it would take to "guarantee" a safe
gene pool?  How about cultural continuity?

                        With luck, they may revere us as gods.
                                ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                                UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

From: sommers@topaz.ARPA (Mamaliz @ The Soup Kitchen)
Subject: Re: Generation Ships
Date: 23 Jul 85 10:10:53 GMT

Two good stories about generation ships are

The Ballad of Beta-2 Samuel Delaney (and not at all like Dhalgren,
for those of you who are scared of Delaney)

Orphan in the Sky ???  RAH (I think this is the title)

liz sommers
uucp:   {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}
        !topaz!sommers
arpa:   sommers@rutgers

------------------------------

Date: Mon 22 Jul 85 09:10:19-PDT
From: DEKEMA%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Christopher Lloyd

An addition to Doug Krause's list: I was surprised to discover while
watching "Mr. Mom" for the third time that Christopher Lloyd plays
Larry, one of Jack Butler's carpool buddies.

BTW, I don't know if there is a net.comedy but "Mr. Mom" is great
fun.  Michael Keaton, Teri Garr and Martin Mull are all at their
near best.

Jeannie Hobbs  (on Jan Dekema's acct at HP Labs Palo Alto)

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 22 Jul 85 18:26:43 GMT

Interesting theory about cuteness: we did it ourselves.

This has nothing to do with the discussion of Ewoks being cute, but
it's an interesting hypothesis.  Baby animals are "cute" primarily
because humans find them cute.  Over millions of years of evolution,
cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, because the
meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all was reluctant
to kill cute animals.  Of course there are good physical reasons why
most mammalian young resemble human babies, but I think there's a
strong "selection" factor there as well.

End of pointless diversion:
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Jul 85 1212-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #286
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 286

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asimov & Spinrad & Yolen &
                         D&D in Books ,
                 Films - 2010 & Back to the Future &
                         Star Trek & Mad Max,
                 Music - SF and Music (5 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Cuteness & Technology vs Magic &
                         Christopher Lloyd

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: My first entry
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1985 09:27 EDT

Responding to John at Topaz, no I really didn't notice that the Gaian
girl, Bliss (wasn't that her name), was like the one in The End of
Eternity. It has however been quite a while the I read EOE. I do note
that Isaac is trying to many of his novels together into a sort of
'Foundation Universe' to use his own words. Similar in a way to Larry
Niven's Known Space.

I think however that he is stretching to some degree. Certainly 
'Pebble in the Sky' and ' The Stars Like Dust' do deal with the 
Galactic Empire, and Earth's penchant for radioactivity. One can see 
some justification for his tying the robot novels into it also, but it
is reaching. In the end, I'm sure he'll pull everything together.  
Gaia will probably be explained away as a race of mutated robots, 
formed out of a less than casual encounter between Giskard, (the mind
reading robot from 'The Robots of Dawn', the latest in female 
humaniform robots from some time on Aurora's future, (future as of 
time of Robots of Dawn). Gaia may even be Aurora, or one of the other
Spacer worlds. After stagnating for another few thousand years, the
populations of those robot dependent worlds just die off, leaving a
hardier earth population to expand. Meanwhile the robots, thus
isolated, begin evolving on their own, and driven by the 1st Law once
again interject themselves back into humanity's future.

In any event, it's fun to speculate, and I'm waiting anxiously for the
next Foundation Book.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: The Mind Game
Date: 22 Jul 85 19:28:47 GMT

I recently read _The_Mind_Game_, by Norman Spinrad.  It was one of
the best novels I have ever read.  I highly recommend it to anyone
over the (mental) age of eighteen.

The story concerns a man whose wife joins a fringe religious group
(like the Scientologists, Moonies, or whatever) called the
Transformationalists.  He then joins the group to try to get her
out.  More than that I won't say.

I noticed that the copyright date is 1980, but there is no
indication of any previous publication.  Does anyone know if this is
a reprint; or if not, why the old copyright?

I can well believe that there were problems finding a publisher; the
Transformationalists are pretty clearly based on the Scientologists.
They were even founded by a science fiction writer.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Jul 85 11:17:25-CDT
From: David Throop <AI.THROOP@UTEXAS-20.ARPA>
Subject: Bk Rev: Cards of Grief - Jane Yolen

  This is a fairly good book - thoughtful, richly colored.
  Its premise is of an alien near-human culture - the Grievers.
They live in a placid world, only one culture, no war or conflict or
(to mention) violent crime.  And the culture is grief centered: its
art, music, lines of royal succession, manners, are all tied back to
grief.  It seems similar to ancestor worship, but grieving for the
death of those lost.
  The plot evolves that a ship of Earth anthropologist have come to
study the culture, and one falls in love with the Queen's Own
Griever, a beauty named the Gray Wanderer.  The conflict, such as
there is, in the book proceeds from this love and from the clash of
the old traditions against the new ways that the Terran ship has
accidently introduced to the culture.
  The best part of the book is her painting of a culture that is
near enough to our own to be comprehensible, but alien enough to be
baffling.  And she explores grief itself, asking and answering "What
is grief, why is it so sweet in its way?"
  But the characters themselves stay enigmatic.  Since the format
for the book is the transcripts of interviews with the central
characters, there is no good action, and only a little bit of rich
description at the end.
  The world Jane Yolen sketches is an intriguing one, yet I was left
hungry for more at the end of the book.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985 05:04:21-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: A way to generate fantasy?

        I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am
wondering if anyone knows if any books have ever been published that
were derived from actual games.  What I mean by this is that the
characters (players) keep 'journals' which are then compiled into
(semi?)coherent form and published as a novel/short story.  I have
often thought that some of the 'adventures' I have had would make
pretty good reading (but alas, I am no writer).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 85 17:20 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)

I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night at a revival
theater.  I won't go into what I thought of the movie, since I'm
sure that was thoroughly handled on the net before I got on.  (By
the way, if this question has already been hashed over, somebody
tell me what was said and I'll be quiet.)  I left the theater with
this one big, sort-of psychological question: assuming everything
happened just the way the movie said it did, how did people on Earth
react?

It struck me that that fancy new sun and all those weird messages
coming over TV screens all over the planet didn't really change the
political situation one iota.  So did we nuke each other or not?  I
think it's fairly clear that we were meant to leave the film
thinking that mankind had suddenly grown up and would now live
happily ever after.  I, for one, would LIKE to believe that people,
even big government leaders, don't **REALLY** want to blow each
other up and would therefore jump at any good, face-saving excuse
for not doing so.  But I'm not sure I have quite enough faith in
humanity to believe that.  On my more pessimistic days, I would
firmly expect somebody to say "Let's nuke them commies [or
'imperialist pigdogs,' if you prefer] and make the galaxy safe for
democracy!!!"

So what do you think?

Chris Miller
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Subject: My first entry
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1985 09:27 EDT

   Even seeing Back to the Future after reading your note about the
movies obscure reference to Sherman and Mr. Peabody, I was unable to
catch the reference to Sherman. I never heard anyone on the Peabody
farm call Sherman.  Was the reference on the Credits?

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.arpa (Duane Morse)
Subject: Star Trek & Grace Lee Whitney
Date: 22 Jul 85 14:15:07 GMT

Most of you Star Trek fans are probably aware that Yeoman Janice
Rand (Grace Lee Whitney) appeared in Star Trek I, promoted to
Transporter Technician. I saw Star Trek III for the second time last
night, and I caught something that I missed the first time around.
Ms. Whitney was in Star Trek III: she was the barmaid who talked to
McCoy!

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 275-0302

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome"
Date: 23 Jul 85 03:41:54 GMT

> From: Peter Reiher <reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
> Steve Rabin writes:
>>The plot is not intended to be believable, or to stand on its own,
>>and to judge it on these grounds is to miss the point.  Judge it
>>for its dramatic and emotional effect, and for the new ideas and
>>questions with which you leave the theatre.
> I think that the plot was meant to be believable on the same level
> as the Trojan Horse or Beowulf.  Judging it as anything but a myth
> seems to me to miss the point.  Max is an archetypical hero,
> performing an archetypical task.  (Miller invariably mentions, in
> his interviews on this film, that a group of aborigines, on
> hearing the part of the story about the children waiting to be
> taken off into the sky, excitedly said that they had a legend just
> like that.)  Miller was trying, as his major task, to produce a
> universal myth.  I think he failed.

        I agree with Steve- nobody should expect this to be as
coherent and semi-logical as it's predecessors.

        Peter is right too, Miller sure goofed this one up compared
to Mad Max & The Road Warrior.  But, I don't think this is anywhere
near the level to be judged next to the Trojan Horse or Beowulf.
For their respective time periods these were excellent "works".

        You really can't complain about feasability though, after
all it is sf, but on the other hand, sf people are sometimes very
demanding for sound reasoning.

        I just cannot buy the monkey though...!

        Moshe Eliovson
        {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!gdh@topaz.arpa (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 23 Jul 85 11:32:50 GMT

gdh@dcl-cs.UUCP (Gareth Husk) writes:
>Both are by Richard Cowper and are published by Pan in the UK.  I
>think 'Piper...' is in a book called 'The Guardians' I'd appreciate
>help in finding a copy of this as I really enjoyed the story.

Okay I made a mistake and hopefully I can correct it before the net
fills to overflowing. 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is in a book
called 'The Custodians' ( I mean it's virtually the same thing ).

Gareth.
UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gdh
DARPA: gdh%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gdh@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4146
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: 24-Jul-1985 0855
From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Those who can't do, emulate)
Subject: Re: sf music

> The background music of most of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The
> Galaxy radio programs is that from the Oxygene album.

Actually, it's "Journey of the Sorceror" From the Eagles' One of
These Nights album.

By the way, another heavily sf group I haven't heard mentioned is
the group Klaatu ... an obscure Canadian band which rocketed to
sudden and brief fame in the late seventies, after their first
album, Klaatu, had sat on shelves gathering dust for a year, when
someone started a rumor that they were the Beatles, secretly
reunioned ... and which rocketed back to obscurity when the rumor
was discredited.  Actually, it was a really good album.  Their
second, Hope, was also reasonably good.  The third (and as far as I
know, the last) didn't quite make it, although it did have a video
for a while ...

One of their songs (Calling Occupants of Interstellar Craft, from
the Klaatu album) was later visciously mangled by Helen Reddy.  I
think someone else re-did it, too.

Most of the stuff on the first two albums which wasn't distinctly sf
was distinctly fantasy; with a few mundane items thrown in.

        /dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Jul 85 09:12:00-EDT
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: MUSIC & SF

It is a confirm that several segments of background music used for
The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy BBC, Radiophonics Workshop as
beamed about the US by National Public Radio was from the Jean
Micheal Jarre Oxygene album.  Unfortunately, I do not recall exactly
where in the 13 episodes it was used.  I do recall that it was
played while Peter Jones (as 'The Book') did a narration.  I have
about 5 out of the 13 shows on tape and I will pin-point at least
one segment, I'm sure.

More Later,
Gern

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 85 10:23 EDT
From: System Owner <root@ncsc>
Subject: music in sf

Didn't Crosby, Still, and Nash ( or C,S,N, and Young) do one called
Wooden Ships, about the soldier/survivors of a future war?  Also
hasn't Neil Young done at least one solo on the same subject?  Sorry
I can't be more specific, but maybe that will jog someone's memory.

My favorite science fiction album is a two-disc version of H.G.
Wells' War of the Worlds (titled War of the Worlds) with Richard
Burton doing narration.  Justin Hayward and David Essex are among
the artists.  There is a riveting piece titled Thunderchild and
another called The Spirit of Man.  The Martian's theme is
appropriatly menacing.  While I don't want to spoil the story I will
say that playing the album is a Halloween tradition and is the focus
of our "Find A Three-Day Weekend for August" movement.

Jessie(ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 24 Jul 85 13:21:14 EDT (Wed)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA

>From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy)
>There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from a
>few years back... anyone remember the artist?  (It wasn't popular
>for very long.)

The pop version of the song was done by the Carpenters, however the
original was done by a group called Klaatu.  They've done about 4
albums, mostly filled with combinations of SF, fantasy, and off the
wall themes.  Their first album (the one with Calling Occupants on
it) was heavily SF, but some of the lyrics would be objectionable to
the very pure of heart.  If anyone wants more info on them, send me
private mail.

        -Nancy <nancy@mit-htvax.arpa>

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!datanguay@topaz.arpa (David Tanguay)
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 22 Jul 85 20:17:31 GMT

> Interesting theory about cuteness: we did it ourselves.
>
> This has nothing to do with the discussion of Ewoks being cute,
> but it's an interesting hypothesis.  Baby animals are "cute"
> primarily because humans find them cute.  Over millions of years
> of evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait,
> because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all
> was reluctant to kill cute animals.  Of course there are good
> physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies,
> but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well.
>
> End of pointless diversion:
>                               Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

Not quite the end: maybe the reverse is true? We see baby animals as
cute because they don't kill us?

                David Tanguay, ditto

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 85 17:20 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)

While waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of us
were discussing the interface between technology/science and magic.
The only novel we could come up with that really treated the
CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one through
the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?  (I have forgotten again,
even though it was a fantastic book.  Any help?)  Was there ever a
sequel to that?  Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a
similar vein.  Zelazny's AMBER novels are close at some points, but
not quite what I'm thinking of.  (Probably because it, like most
everything else I've ever read that comes close, deals with the
introduction of an element of one world into another (i.e. guns in
Amber) while I'm thinking more of a situation where the two normally
coexist.)

Chris Miller
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Christopher Lloyd
Date: 24 Jul 85 09:38:06 EDT (Wed)
From: Dan Grim <grim@UDel-Huey.ARPA>

Christopher Lloyd also played one of Michael Keaton's coworkers in
Mr. Mom.  He was so normal I didn't even notice him until the second
time I saw the movie.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Jul 85 1258-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #287
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Jul 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 287

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Anthony,
                   Music - SF and Music (5 msgs),
                   Miscellaneous - Aliens & cuteness (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 23 Jul 85 14:19:24-PDT
From: DEKEMA%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: On a Pale Horse

This was my first (!) Piers Anthony book, and it was terrific!  Lots
of novel (to me) ideas and well-written to boot.  Glad I didn't read
the author's note and ruin the nice effect.

Jeannie Hobbs
(via Jan Dekema at HP Labs, Palo Alto)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1985 12:39:29 PDT
Subject: music in sf
From: Sheila Coyazo <SCOYAZO@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

Re music in sf stories and novels:

Has anybody mentioned The Ship Who Sang?  The author was a woman,
but I can't remember who.

Also, here's yet another I-remember-the-bones-of-a-story-but-not-
the-title-or- author posting:

I read a short story a few years ago about a guy who kept composing
music that was being written at the time by somebody (or several
somebodies) else.  He was accused of plagiarism, and that's how he
started to figure out what was happening.  As I recall, in the end
of the story he was happily composing the works of past masters
(Mozart?).  I'm not sure this qualifies as SF, although I seem to
remember that it was included in an SF anthology of some sort.  It
might even have been in an sf magazine.  Anybody know of this one?
Please mail to me.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1985 16:08:24-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: SF in music....

> From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy)
>
> There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from
> a few years back... anyone remember the artist?

Sure do, and I've been wondering how long it would take for someone
to mention this song. The 'popular' version was done by The
Carpenters and, to my taste, was pretty awful, bordering on elevator
music.

The much better original version was on the first album of a group
called Klaatu (obviously not afraid to show their SF leanings, are
they?). Virtually this entire album, titled simply "Klaatu," as well
as their second, titled "Hope," is SF-influenced, or outright SF.
My personal favorite is a song called "Little Neutrino," from the
first album, which relates the thoughts of a neutrino as it passes
through the listener. Another nice one, from the second album,
relates the plight of an interstellar lighthouse keeper who's the
last of his race. Beyond the unusual lyrics, the guys have no lack
of musical talent. I recommend them if you can find them (their
first album appeared around '75 or '76).

Another excellent album that I believe no one has mentioned yet has
the awkward title of "Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of 'The War of
the Worlds.'" This is a double-album set which re-tells, through
music, song, and narration, Wells' classic story. I remember
thinking, when I first saw this album, "Oh, no! What a great chance
for someone to produce some really tacky music." But I was
pleasantly surprised; it's really quite well done. Richard Burton
(the actor) plays the protagonist (from whom we hear most of the
story); other voices heard on the album (both singing and speaking)
include: Justin Hayward, Phil Lynnot, and David Essex. (BTW, Jeff
Wayne is the producer.) I highly recommend this one to anyone who
enjoys both SF and music, but I'm afraid it's not easy to find; it
appeared around '78 and I rarely see it anywhere. Don't expect to
find it anywhere but used or collector's record shops. (Actually,
I'm curious as to how many people on this list may have heard this
album. If you've heard it, send me mail.)

Still more SF-related music can be found on several of the albums of
Uriah Heep, most notably "Demons & Wizards" and "The Magician's
Birthday." From the song "Circle of Hands" on the former:

     "Circle of hands
      Cold spirits plan
      Searching our land
      For an enemy

      Came across
      Love's sweet cost
      And in the face of beauty
      Evil was lost"

And from the title song on the latter:

     "Let's all go to
      The Magician's birthday
      It's in the forest but
      Not so far away
      Much to do and so
      Much to say
      While we listen to the
      Orchid orchestra play"

(Sorry if the quotations are a little off; they're from memory.)  I
believe these two albums appeared in the '70 to '73 period, but
they're probably easier to find than the others I've mentioned.

Gee, I hope I'm not the only one to appreciate these gems.

                                   Regards,
                                    Jeff Rogers
                                    jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 85 18:34:52 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #273

     Rush 2112 is based on Anthem, by Ayn Rand... it says so on the
album cover. They change what the narrator finds, from (an old
battery?)  to a guitar, and I dont remember any mention of an Elder
Race in the story, but I'm sure that is the basis.

     Yes, the story of the blind engineer hobo minstrel is Green
Hills of Earth by Robert Heinlein. This song and lots of others are
attributed to Rhysling, the name of the minstrel, in many of his
short stories.

     Anne McCaffrey wrote Crystal Singer. It certainly did strike a
chord... whole mountain ranges of them! (sorry, I dont have your
self control...)

     Windhaven was written by George R.R. Martin and Lisa Tuttle.

     The only filk song I have ever been able to remember is one I
heard at a Star Trek Convention in 1976 at the Commodore Hotel in
NYC... it is set to the tune of Hava Nagila, and is about the
episode with the giant space-going sea walrus.. ur, uh, I mean the
giant space-going amoeba. (one of the poorer episodes...) I get very
strange looks when I sing it...

have fun
Keep on Trekkin!
/amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Jul 85 17:14:41-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Music (Genesis/Carpenters/Rush/Hitchikers)

Ok, well now that this discussion is well underway, I think I'll
throw in a bit more in the way of answering some points and bringing
up a few new ones.

Genesis
 Its often difficult to decide when music is science fact and not
science fiction. For instance Genesis: :"The Return Of The Giant
Hogweed" has been mentioned as a pisstake of the Triffids. Well
pisstake it may be but fiction it most certainly isn't. The Giant
Hogweed plant is a serious menace in many parts of the UK and can
kill or at least badly disfigure. All Gabriel did was to beef up
botanical *fact*. Certainly though a lot of Genesis music
(particularly that of Gabriel, Banks and Rutherford) was heavily SF
influenced - how about "Get 'em out by Friday"
   This is an announcement from Genetic Control
   It is my sad duty to inform you
   Of a four foot restriction on humanoid height
   ...........
   We can fit twice as many in the same building site

or the Mellotron (?) at the start of "Watcher of the Skies" which is
designed to sound like the sound of a giant spaceship landing on
earth to find .... nothing.  I could talk about Genesis all day but
I'd better move on.

Daniel R Levy <ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa> asked who recorded "Calling
Occupants of Interplanetary Craft". Well it was the Carpenters and
there's an interesting story to go along with it.
 Back in the days when everyone was Flying Saucer mad, one of the
British UFO societies wrote a little 'prayer' which was to be
recited by all their members all over the world at exactly the same
time in the hope that some alien race would pick up the united call
by telepathy and come and visit us. This was around the mid '50s and
as far as I can see did not work ! What connection does this have
with the Carpenters ? Answer "Calling Occupants.." is an almost word
perfect recital of this set to music.

2112
 There have been separate mentions of SF songs and SF stories which
are based around music and I'm surprised that although Rush: "2112"
has been mentioned in the first category, nobody has put it in the
second as well. I'll stick my neck out then. The words are clearly
SF but also the story revolves around -
 What can this strange device be ?
 ....
 Its got wires that vibrate and give music
 ...
 Its just a toy that helped destroy the elder race of man
 Forget about your silly whims
 It doesn't fit the Plan

The find is of course a guitar and he realises that despite what the
Priests tell him that it is a symbol of the creativity and beauty
then didn't destroy the elder race but instead drove it off out into
the galaxy. Expanding, building and creating as they go, leaving the
stunted remains of civilisation on earth.

The Hitchhiker's Guide
 Not all of the backing music used was by the BBC radiophonic
workshop. I identified such things as the Bee Gee's "Night Fever"
played backwards when Zaphod and Rooster go to a disco - "Hey
Rooster I've just had this really hoopy idea". Music from Sparks
"Number One Song in Heaven" also appears. Trying to identify the
tracks after the radiophonic work shop have got at it can be quite
fun !
 Note also how many times Dire Straits get mentioned in "So Long and
Thanks.."

  So there's a bit more coal for the fire. Meanwhile I'll just go
back to listening to some more tapes.....

                        Alan Greig
                        Computer Centre
                        Dundee College of Technology
                        Dundee
                        Scotland

Janet:  Alan%DCT@DDXA
Arpa:   Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 85 19:44:14 PDT
Subject: Science Fiction Folkmusic [Filking]

A comment was made of a style/form of music called 'Filking'...  I
can recommend the folks at Off Centar [Which was the address given]
Off-Centar Publications
PO Box 424, El Cerrito, CA  94530  [1-415-528-3172]
These folks are also the new publishers of Kantle (the official
publication of The Filk Foundation).

The Foundation has had a slow start but it is attempting to catalog
the products of fandoms most unique art-form, SF Folk Singing.

Members also recieve supporting memberships to club sponsored
conventions...The next one is BayFilk 3 on March 7-9, 1986 in San
Jose Contact the folks at Off-Centar for more info...

Also, another group is the LA Filkers Anonymous, which meet each
month to discuss their problems and keep the neighbors awake (but
entertained) through the night...  They can be reached at LAFA, c/o
Paul Willett, 16440 Tryon Street Westminster, CA 92683
[1-714-842-8426] Paul also put out a good Filk NewsZine entitled
Philphenomenon [PFNEN]

Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
                crash!victoro@nosc   or   crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 23 Jul 85 17:17:20 GMT

throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>Living space might be a reason, [for alien invasion] but would
>require an unreasonably advanced transport technology to make it
>feasible and at the same time have the technology level low enough
>to preclude easier solutions to population pressure (such as
>Ringworlds).  (The exception is when cost is no object, eg, the
>aliens need to escape from a supernova or the like.)

First of all, I doubt that Ringworlds are an easier solution to
population pressure.  It takes a lot of energy for interstellar
travel, but it takes a lot more to build a ringworld.

Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there is
such a thing as enough living space.  Exponential growth will use up
whatever space is available, in relatively short order.  So we have
a ringworld.  In a thousand years we will want another (or ten
thousand, or a million).  In thirty to a hundred years, we will want
a third.  In fifteen to forty, we want a fourth.  After that, we
start wanting them frequently.

By the way, interstellar travel (at sub-light speeds) is not as bad
as most of us have been led to believe (generation ships and such).
Forseeable technology will get us about one-tenth the speed of
light.  This will get us to the nearest star in about forty years.
A long time, but many of those who set out will get there.

A somewhat more problematical technology, the anti-matter drive,
will get us there at one g if we are willing to expend reaction mass
comparable to the delivered mass.  That gets us there in about seven
years (a bit less for the travelers.)  Right now it looks like the
biggest problem with this drive is producing anti-matter
economically (it can already be produced, using particle
accelerators, it's just fantastically expensive).  There are other
possibilities, such as lasers, not to mention ideas that haven't
been thought of yet.

In short, our children *can* go to the stars; and even come back.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 23 Jul 85 13:43:02 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>because humans find them cute.  Over millions of years of
>evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait,
>because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all
>was reluctant to kill cute animals.  Of course there are good
>physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies,
>but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well.

The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural
universal.  For example: a rather decadent Chinese banquet delicacy
was live baby mice dipped in honey and rolled in sesame seeds. Yum.
(No, I'm not cross-posting this to net.cooks :-) Another for
example: the fellows up in the Great White North who make their
living clubbing baby seals probably don't shed any tears over the
'cute' baby seals with their 'cute' big eyes. I suspect the 'cute'
reaction is primarily a fairly recent Anglo-American cultural
tradition, since I've never seen it mentioned in any other cultural
contexts. Anyone else out there have any ideas about this?

I suggest anyone interested in this topic check out the title essay
in a book called 'The Great Cat Massacre,' published (I think) last
year.
                               -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 24 Jul 85 19:50:52 GMT

>> jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>>because humans find them cute.  Over millions of years of
>>evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait,
>>because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all
>>was reluctant to kill cute animals.  Of course there are good
>>physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies,
>>but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well.
>
> The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural
> universal.  [Various examples designed to breakup dinner table
> conversations followed] ... I suspect the 'cute' reaction is
> primarily a fairly recent Anglo-American cultural tradition, since
> I've never seen it mentioned in any other cultural contexts.
> Anyone else out there have any ideas about this?
>                                -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

S.J. Gould had an essay on cartoon characters which is relevant and
entertaining.  It's in one of his collections of essays.(Perhaps
"The Panda's Thumb"?).  His point, which strikes me as sensible, is
that we are programmed to find *human* babies cute.  In the
appropriate cultural context this can lead to people thinking most
mammalian young are "cute". (Unless there's money to be made by
ripping their lungs out. :-))

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jul 85 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #288
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 31 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 288

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Goulart & D&D in Books,
                  Films - Lovecraft Movies & SF Westerns (3 msgs) &
                          Sexism (2 msgs),
                  Music - SF and Music (3 msgs),
                  Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cheviot!ncx@topaz.arpa (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Ron Goulart
Date: 24 Jul 85 10:33:23 GMT

Can anyone send me (by mail please) a COMPLETE list of books by Ron
Goulart, preferably with ISBN's etc. It is almost impossible to get
hold of his books off the shelf in the UK and nobody seems to have a
list of titles that are available (Don't tell me about Books in
Print, Library of Congress Catalogue [That sounds most indecent :-)
] and other such sources - I've looked and they dont help that much,
if at all).

Lindsay F. Marshall
Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK
ARPA  : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa
JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
UUCP  : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?
Date: 24 Jul 85 22:28:41 GMT

>From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.

   There is a continuing series of books called "Dragonlance" which
are put out by TSR (the people who get the royalties for AD&D),
along with a companion set of scenarios to be played out.  These
books (I've read the first) are not badly written, and aren't really
a bad read, but I don't think they'd hold much interest for
non-D&Ders.  On the other hand, those who play D&D (or AD&D) will
probably find that the actions of the characters, as well as the
settings, monsters, situations, etc., are all recognizable as having
come from the AD&D universe, and will be able to more fully enjoy
the novels.
   One word of caution: these seem to be set up so much along the
lines of AD&D sessions, that things don't really end after each
novel.  (Sure, we've saved the elves from total destruction and
freed the townsmen from the clutches of the evil dragon, but the
battle isn't over yet, and the players, er, characters, will be back
again next weekend to continue the never-ending battles...)

joel "vo" plutchak
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 23 Jul 85 18:45:05 EDT
From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a
Subject: Lovecraft

I thank all who responded to my Lovecraftian movie request.  After
perusing an HPL book or two, I have something to add.

1.  The story @i(Pickman's Model) was made into a Night Gallery
    (color and all) of a name unknown to me.

    Both the original and the NG concern an artist who incorporated
    grisly creatures doing ghastly things into his paintings.

    The book had a male who was interested in his work accompany the
    artist to his studio in a run-down part of town.  The artist
    scuffles with something out of the sight of his guest, forces it
    back into the maze of tunnels that opens into the cellar, and
    lives on. In the process, the author gets scared, and runs off
    clutching what ends up being a photograph of a real creature,
    which here were doggish with sort of cloven hooves, upright, and
    somewhat humanish.  They were supposed to be involved with the
    old 'changeling' legends, where these creatures would exchange
    one of their young for a human baby, and it would grow up to
    look human.

    The TV adaptation differs in that the interested party was an
    attractive female who followed the artist to the studio in the
    run-down part of town secretly because she was interested in
    both his paintings and him.  He scuffles with an unseen
    creature, but when the door opens it is the creature who chases
    the blond around the room.  The creature here was distinctly
    reptillian, green, and not very convincing.

2.  There was a movie, called The Devil of Hobbs End, or something
    like that, I think.  In this flick, excavation for a subway
    uncovers this strange blue ancient spaceship, which contains a
    few dead grasshopper aliens, ....  The 'thing discovered while
    digging for a subway' theme is brought out in length in HPL's
    "Pickman's Model" and a few others, and one of his stories
    mentions such stuff as occuring at "Cobb End," while I think
    this movie concerned "Hobb's End" or some such.

Al Datri
Carnegie-Mellon University

arpa: aad%cmu-vice-postoffice@pt.cs.cmu.edu
arpa:  (my friend with arpa outputability) bader%cmu-psy-a
usenet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%cmu-cs-g% { usenet path, ending with !pitt }
mailnet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%carnegie.mailnet    { @mit-?}

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 85 10:04 EDT
From: System Owner <root@ncsc>
Subject: Science Fiction westerns

To Donald Rose's P.S. about a Sci Fi Western...Wasn't there a movie
in the not to distant past about a guy on a motorcycle who somehow
got sent back to the Wild West? (That's all I remember about it.)

Jessie (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz.arpa (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: This planet ain't big enough, etc... (SF Westerns)
Date: 23 Jul 85 16:14:17 GMT

>>
>>(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?)
> Well, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ was western SF (a remake of _The
> Magnificent Seven_, itself a remake of _The Seven Samurai_).  So
> was _Borderland_ (a remake of _High Noon_).
  (^_Outland_, of course)

Another SF western is _Moon_Zero_Two_, complete with claim jumpers
and showdowns at high Earth (with a lady sheriff, in fact).  Haven't
seen it for years, but liked it when I was younger.  Starred James
Olson (Andromeda Strain, The Empire Strikes Back)

                                             Ron Wanttaja
                                             (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: your film fantasies
Date: 23 Jul 85 17:05:52 GMT

> From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>
> Depends on what you define as a Sci Fi Western, but Westworld
> (+sequels) and Star Wars immediately come to mind, for different
> reasons.

Similarly, given a rather wiggly definition of Western, Outland is a
remake of High Noon.

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 85 10:04 EDT
From: System Owner <root@ncsc>
Subject: Sexism in movies

In reply to Peter Reiher's aside on sexism in Spielberg's
movies...on my daughter's behalf I thank you. The children of today
are the women and men of tomorrow.  What influences them now in
film, books and music will influence the world in 30 years.  This
has been the U.N. International Decade of the Woman, and though
adult women now have as role models the many women prominent in the
modern world, I am dismayed to find that role models for girls have
regressed to self-indulgent, "material" personalities like Madonna,
Brooke Shields, and Cindi Lauper.  When my daughter was 8 she wanted
to be just like Princess Leia.  Now that she is 13, there are no
strong, brave and compassionate characters for her to want to
emulate.  This lack of strong, non-sterotypical female characters is
not just Spielberg's disease. Everything that I have said about
sexism may also be applied to racism and nationalism.  It may be a
responsiblity of science fiction, which has so often predicted the
path society has taken, to show a future in which equality is a
given facet of life.  The best female character in a science fiction
movie I have ever seen was the doctor in the High Noon rip-off
(there's one, Donald!) starring Sean Connery, Outland, about a
mining colony on the moon (or asteroid or whatever it was) of some
big planet (I guess it was Jupiter, but please don't give me a
thousand corrections if it is not; where is beside the point
compared to what). (I apologize for the above digression.)  Other
good female characters were Sigourney Weaver in Alien and the
Russian captain in 2010. I can only think of one black in a
semi-lead role and that was in Ice Pirates.  Minority leads who are
leads for reasons other than their sex and the opportunity for the
white male lead to show off are rare and devoutly to be desired.
Many lead roles in science fiction movies could be played by anyone
regardless race or sex.  (Let us use our brains and realize that
this is a generalization and not flame on endlessly listing the
exceptions.  Thank you.)The ideal is to cast a role with the best
player (a non-sexist word).

Jessie (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1985 13:25:35-EDT
From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Spielberg a sexist?....

Peter Reiher (ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa) writes:
>      Anyone else out there think that Steven Spielberg is a sexist?
> Only in "Poltergeist" did Spielberg give us important female
> characters.  The female parts in "Raiders" and "Close Encounters"
> weren't too bad, but they were definitely supporting roles.

Y'know, Peter, you're right. And even in "Poltergeist," the major
female roles were quite traditional -- one, a housewife & mother,
the other, basically a witch. However, there was one other female
role, not so traditional -- one of the psychic researchers was a
woman (in fact, she seemed to be the leader of the group). But, as I
recall, the sexuality of her role was hardly one of its dominant
features.

Look at the female roles in "Close Encounters" -- both mothers.
True, one is apparently single, but yet it is she for whom the
'mothering' aspect is more strongly emphasized; throughout the
film she is driven by her maternal impulses.

But I have to wonder: is Spielberg being consciously sexist here, or
is what we are interpreting as sexism merely a side effect of his
habit of making very traditional movies? After all, isn't he trying
to bring to the screens of the eighties the sorts of adventure
stories he loved to see and read when he was a child?  (Which was --
fifties? forties?) And a LOT of fiction and film produced back then,
especially juvenile & light adventure stuff, and Disney, was filled
with very cultural-norm-affirming backgrounds, right?

So if Spielberg is trying to emulate these traditional pictures,
then even Karen Allen's role in "Raiders" fits right into the
pattern. The spunky, tomboyish, yet beautiful-when-she-finally-
puts-a-dress-on girl has a long history in pulp fiction.

What do you think?
                             Regards,
                                      Jeff Rogers
                                      jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 23 Jul 85 18:45:05 EDT
From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a
Subject: sf in music.

Children of the Sun was done by Billy Thorpe.

M. Moorcock did indeed work with Hawkwind, and he released a
little-known solo album in the late 70's.

There is much reference in electronic and strange music concerning
SG.  I picked up an album by Ramases called "Space Wars" which has
this groovy zillion-gatefold cover of a rocket lifting off from a
church.  Inspection of the inside of the cover confirms the SF
content.

Scorpions did a song called "Robot Man" on @i(In Trance), as well as
a number of other songs on their early albums with SF/F themes.

Who can hear Also Sprach Zarathustra (sp?) without thinking of 2001?

There was a 70's band called Magma who based themselves on a sort of
SF background, inventing their own language (reflective of German
and Lovecraft -- well, sort of) and stories about being invaded by
people/creatures from somewhere called ORK.  The first mention of
Ork I have seen is on their 1974 Khontarkask (something like that)
album.  That was pre-mork and mindy, wasn't it?....

Metallica did a an instrumental song called "Kthulu" [sic] on
@i(Ride the Lightning.)

Anvil did a song (not especially memorable) called "Mothra"

Fleetwood Mac (later Judas Preist) -- The Green Manalishi with the 2
Pronged Crown.

Some of Black Sabbath's work could be seen as having SF influences,
like the @i(Technical Ecstasy) album.

Earth Wind and Fire did something about a guy from Jupiter.

BOC -- lots of stuff, like Cultosaurus Erectus.

Uli Jon Roth - Electric Sun -- three albums of SF/F from
ex-Scorpions guitarist.

Flash Fearless and the Zorg Women, parts 5&6 -- really weird album
put out in the mid-late seventies, with an included comic book
formed around the lyrics on the album.  Made fun of Flash Gordon and
others, soundtrack has songs not found elsewhere by subsets of
{Alice Cooper, John Entwhistle, Keith Moon, Kenny Jones, ...}

The movie Heavy Metal, which featured music that by and large
wasn't.

Half of anything Jimi Hendrix did.

The band UFO.

some Todd Rundgren / Utopia stuff

as for SF based on music, what about "The Music of Erich Zann,"
from, of course, H.P. Lovecraft.

I may have posted some parts of the above before; if so, join me in
cursing my mailer.

Al Datri
Carnegie-Mellon University

arpa: aad%cmu-vice-postoffice@pt.cs.cmu.edu
arpa:  (my friend with arpa outputability) bader%cmu-psy-a
usenet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%cmu-cs-g% { usenet path, ending with !pitt }
mailnet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%carnegie.mailnet    { @mit-?}

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: music in sf
Date: 23 Jul 85 13:27:37 GMT

>And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
>conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
>written SF in which music played a dominant theme?

"Songmaster" by Orson Scott Card.

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Jul 85 09:49:01-EDT
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: Oxygene in THGTTG Found

I scanned thru the only 4 of 13 episodes I still have on tape last
night of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy BBC radio program.

Jean Michael Jarre's Oxygene album IS used as background music.  The
only occurence of it I could find out of the 4 episodes I have (I am
sure it is used in other episodes) is at the very beginning of
episode #6, the one where they are on the Admiral's Flagship as he
turns into The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast Of Traal.  It is used as
Peter Jones (as The Book) is stating:

The History of every major galactic civilization has passed through
three distinct and recognisable phases: those of survival, inquiry,
and sophistication, otherwise known as the how, why and where
phases...

Cheers,
Gern

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 23 Jul 85 21:40:55 GMT

> From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
> While waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of
> us were discussing the interface between technology/science and
> magic.  Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar
> vein.

        Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept Series.  In it the same
matter used as magic "mana" is also an extremely valuable source of
energy.  However, I do not recommend the series because although I
have read this series and most of his Xanth stuff, he's very limited
in his description of the capacity of magic.  He limits it too much;
for instance: in xanth everyone has one (1) magical ability.  In the
Apprentice Adept books, an adept could work magic through one means-
in Style's case it was through music.

                Moshe Eliovson
                {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jul 85 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #289
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 31 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 289

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Adams & Pluterday,
                     Films - The Black Cauldron & 
                             SF Westerns &
                             The Heavenly Kid,
                     Music - Music and SF (2 msgs),
                     Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) & 
                             Christopher Lloyd

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1985  09:56 EDT
From: SR.KAUFMAN@MIT-SPEECH
Subject: Ford Prefect

Poking around in a bookstore last night, I saw that Harmony books
has put out an "Omnibus Edition" of the first three Hitchhiker's
books, with "A New Introduction by Douglas Adams".  The introduction
describes and in part explains how the HHG saga started, and where
all the story lines branch off from each other.  There is also a
comment about Ford's name: Adams explains that Americans did not get
the joke, because the Ford Prefect was only sold in England, but
that Ford had "simply mistaken the dominant life form".

Share & Enjoy,
Qux
Qux@MIT-Goldilocks.Arpa
Kaufman@YaleCS.Bitnet
..!decvax!yale!kaufman

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Pluterday
Date: 25 Jul 85 19:55:58 GMT

Van Herck, Paul         WHERE WERE YOU LAST PLUTERDAY?

But there may have been some Brunner story called "Pluterday" also.
Jayembee, where are you?
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrse@topaz.arpa (Steve Ehrhardt)
Subject: Re: "The Black Cauldron"
Date: 24 Jul 85 20:36:55 GMT

        Having seen TBC at an early preview showing in June, I found
my opinions of, and complaints about, the film pretty much summed up
by Peter Reiher's recent review in this newsgroup.  I would also
like to join him in urging others to see this film for themselves.
        TBC suffers mostly by comparison to what it should/could
have been.  Taken by itself, it is a good, entertaining film.  It
simply isn't the masterpiece that Disney had led us to believe it
would be.
        For myself, I found that "TBC's" principal drawback was its
over-condensed storyline.  The animation, while uneven, was
generally at least good, and in places (particularly that of the
'bad guys' and their environs) excellent.  Often, however, I kept
feeling that things were not being adequately explained, even by
implication.

*** Some slight spoilers follow ***

        The most glaring example of this is the group of fairies
that the hero and his party encounter at one point.  They appear to
have been dropped into the story gratuitously, perhaps to increase
the 'cuteness factor', with no explanation of who or what they are,
or why they are hiding from the outside world.  Other points, such
as why the Horned King is considered such a menace, the origins of a
certain magic sword, etc. remain largely unexplained.  A small
amount of more background information would go a long way towards
making the film more enjoyable.
        "TBC" does move well, perhaps in part because of the
condensation just described.  I found that I didn't get tempted to
look at my watch once during the showing, which to me is always a
good sign.  Nevertheless, I still feel that this is one film that
would benefit from being lengthened to a full two hours.
        Despite the film's weak points, I found that I enjoyed it a
great deal, and intend to see it again when it opens locally.  I
particularly enjoyed the "cleavage joke" referred to in a previous
review, that being one of the funniest animated sequences I've seen
in a long time.  While it is perhaps not the best effort produced by
Disney, I would definitely rate it as being worth seeing.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 85 09:43:37 PDT (Thursday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
Subject: Re: your film fantasies / Sci Fi Western

From: Don Rose <drose@uci-icse>
>(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?)

You bet!  The silliest Science Fiction movie I have ever seen was
"Battle Beyond the Stars" staring what's his name who played
John-Boy on "The Waltons".  BBtS was much like a space opera version
of "The Magnificent Seven": young boy gathers band of interplanetary
misfits to save boy's planet from evil space baron.  All in all, a
pretty worthless film, although I did like the unibeing, Nestor.

Josh

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE HEAVENLY KID
Date: 24 Jul 85 03:28:09 GMT

                          THE HEAVENLY KID
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     I never planned to see THE HEAVENLY KID.  What little I knew
about the film made it sound a little hum-drum and familiar.  A
teenager gets a guardian angel to help him through life's trying
moments.  The idea has been done to death (you'll pardon the
expression) on made-for-TV copies of films like HERE COMES MR.
JORDAN, its remake HEAVEN CAN WAIT, TOPPER, episodes of THE TWILIGHT
ZONE, even a Tom and Jerry cartoon.  But I was in for one shock.
Like Holiday Inns says in its ad: "The only surprise is that there
are no surprises."  Even HEAVEN CAN WAIT had moments when it was
unpredictable.  From beginning to end there is not an original scene
or an original piece of dialogue in THE HEAVENLY KID.  This film
could have been written by high school students who pieced it
together from made-for-TV films.

     In a reprise of the chicken race of REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE,
Bobby is killed.  In scenes stolen from HERE COMES MR. JORDAN, he
deals with angelic bureaucrats who arrange for him to return to
Earth for a good deed which will allow him to go to Heaven.  He is
dispatched to help a young teenager find himself.

     The film sets for itself some hard and fast rules, then goes
about breaking them with no regard for logic.  The invisible angel
gets into fights and nobody notices an invisible force is in the
fight.  One victim does notice, but never seems to mention it.  The
angel is allowed to reveal himself only to his charge, but when the
script-writer wants him to, he reveals himself to other people.  In
another scene, he sits in a tight backseat with two women, the
actresses desperately trying to act as if they can't tell there's a
third person in the seat.

     THE HEAVENLY KID (it's not clear if the title refers to the
angel or the boy--neither fits) is just a string of familiar scenes
and a real yawner.  Of minor note is that the stunt co-ordinator was
Ricou Browning.  Browning was the man inside the monster suit in
CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON.  The only other familiar name (to
me) was Richard Mulligan as the angelic bureaucrat in beatnik poncho
on a motorcycle he can't ride--funny, huh?  Rate this film an
admittedly high -2 on the -4 to +4 scale.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 85 16:59 PST
From: Gary Palmer <Gary-Palmer%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Music and SF.

The song "Calling occupants of interplanetary craft" was performed
and recorded by _Klatuu_.  This group was also the subject of a
short-lived myth during 1977 that they were actually the Beatles (we
remember them, Paul MaCartney's old group (just kidding)).

Also on music; the album "Dune" by progressive jazzist David
Mathews.  One side is all music inspired by Dune, the other side is
his rendition of the Star Wars music.

And of course Jimi Hendrix has lots of Sci-Fi music.  How 'bout the
song UFO?

-Gary

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft + sf in music.
Date: 24 Jul 85 16:22:48 GMT

bader@CMU-PSY-A writes:
>as for SF based on music, what about "The Music of Erich Zann,"
>from, of course, H.P. Lovecraft.

There was an obscure rock band in the late '60s called H. P.
Lovecraft. They recorded one album that I'm aware of that has a song
called 'At The Mountains Of Madness' on it. Not a particularly
thrilling or memorable album.

I also seem to recall a song titled something like 'Rocket #9' on
NRBQ's first album, and some kind of rocket-related song on 'Kick
Out The Jams' by the MC-5.

Oh, and I haven't seen a mention of '2000 Light Years From Home' on
the Rolling Stones' album 'Their Satanic Majesties Request.'

                       -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens
Date: 23 Jul 85 17:51:45 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:

>Possible answers to the question "Where are the aliens?" (most of
>which have appeared in numerous SF stories):
>
>(f) FTL travel is impossible.  Inter-stellar travel requires the
>      colony ship approach or suspended animation.  Everything is
>      subject to relativistic effects like time dilation.  This
>      makes exploration much more difficult and time-consuming.  It
>      just so happens we haven't been found yet; indeed, many races
>      may decide that inter-stellar colonization is economically
>      pointless and may do their best to live at home.

See my previous posting; I won't repeat myself here.

>I've probably left out a few explanations from the list.
>Variations are many; take (c), for example, inter-stellar
>peace-keepers who prevent nasties from interfering.  These could be
>benevolent beings; malevolent beings who wipe out any race that
>ventures into space; a doomsday ship that was programmed by someone
>to hang around Jupiter and shoot anything that happens by; a
>natural or artificial barrier that makes our region of space
>difficult to enter; and so on.

I would regard nasties as quite different from benevolent
protection, not just a variation.

OK, now for some others:

(h) Intelligent races at some point evolve past the need for
    physical existence.  As a variation, they find parallel
    worlds (infinitely many of them) and don't need the rest of
    the universe.

(i) Intelligent races are inevitably warlike.  At some point they
    get sufficiently deadly weapons and kill themselves off.

However, option (g) seems the most likely to me -- there aren't any
other technological races, at least not in our galaxy.  The next
question is, why not?  The following seem to me to be the main
possible reasons:

(1) Planets which can support life are very rare.  Either planetary
    systems are rare, or the conditions required for life are more
    special than we think.

(2) Life is a very unlikely phenomenon.  Almost all worlds which
    can support life don't have any.

(3) Some step in the evolution of intelligent life is very unlikely.
    Maybe multicellular life is unique to Earth.  Maybe sexual
    reproduction is.

(4) Technology is unique to us.  Other races don't develop it.  This
    may be because they lack appropriate manipulatory organs, or
    because there is something unlikely about its development.

(5) All of the above.  Perhaps each of the above is 10 to 100 times
    as unlikely as the SETI people estimate, so that the expected
    number of intelligent races in the galaxy is about one.

(6) Perhaps our evolution was amazingly fast, and we aren't so much
    the only technological species as the first.

(7) Collisions with astronomical objects may be quite common, and we
    are very lucky not to have been hit by anything really large in
    the last few billion years.

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens
Date: 24 Jul 85 20:09:33 GMT

> (f) FTL travel is impossible.  Inter-stellar travel requires the
>     colony ship approach or suspended animation.  Everything is
>     subject to relativistic effects like time dilation.  This
>     makes exploration much more difficult and time-consuming.
>     It just so happens we haven't been found yet; indeed, many
>     races may decide that inter-stellar colonization is
>     economically pointless and may do their best to live at
>     home.

Not a valid argument. All it takes is one race... in fact if nothing
else stops us we'll have the entire galaxy colonised in a million
years, even without FTL. A million years is nothing to the age of
the universe.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
ARPA: baylor.peter@RICE.ARPA
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076; DELPHI: PJDASILVA

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 25 Jul 85 04:48:55 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there
>is such a thing as enough living space.  Exponential growth will
>use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order.  So
>we have a ringworld.  In a thousand years we will want another (or
>ten thousand, or a million).  In thirty to a hundred years, we will
>want a third.  In fifteen to forty, we want a fourth.  After that,
>we start wanting them frequently.

This itself is a fallacy, on two counts.  As far as humans are
concerned, exponential is characteristic of a certain phase of
technological and cultural development.  Most developed societies
today have either slowly growing or stable populations.  In terms of
other races, well, whose to say?  I would venture to guess, however,
that a race which had an unalterable tendency towards high growth
rates would have a hard time developing adequate technology; too
much effort would be going into people starving.

>By the way, interstellar travel (at sub-light speeds) is not as bad
>as most of us have been led to believe (generation ships and such).
>Forseeable technology will get us about one-tenth the speed of
>light.  This will get us to the nearest star in about forty years.
>A long time, but many of those who set out will get there.

That's a generation ship.  Very few women are fertile after 40 years.

>A somewhat more problematical technology, the anti-matter drive,
>will get us there at one g if we are willing to expend reaction
>mass comparable to the delivered mass.  That gets us there in about
>seven years (a bit less for the travelers.)  Right now it looks
>like the biggest problem with this drive is producing anti-matter
>economically (it can already be produced, using particle
>accelerators, it's just fantastically expensive).  There are other
>possibilities, such as lasers, not to mention ideas that haven't
>been thought of yet.

Well, unless you are going to break out of the current laws of
physics, it takes the same amount of energy to get there in a
certain time no matter how you store the power.  You either have to
generate it along the way, or produce it all at the beginning and
store it somewhere (and storage isn't necessarily a problem).  And
it's a LOT of energy, all of which you have to get rid of if you
expect to stop when you get there.

Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 25 Jul 1985 08:00:16-PDT
From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Gaylene Callaghan
From: DTN:523-4523)
Subject: Chris Lloyd

Thanks goes to Paul Kemp.

"Best of the West" was indeed the western I had seen Christopher
Lloyd in. (Memory block or some such) For a while there I thought
maybe I was seeing things when Chris came on the screen with a black
hat and a six-gun...

Thanks again,

Gaylene

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Jul 85 1025-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #290
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 31 Jul 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 290

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Varley & Pluterday,
               Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) &
                       2010 & SF Westerns,
               Music - SF and Music (6 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & Spoilers &
                       Cuteness (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR)
Subject: Re: Tech/sci & magic--esp. Anthony's Apprentice Adept
Date: 25 Jul 85 18:31:14 GMT

>       Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept Series.  In it the same
> matter used as magic "mana" is also an extremely valuable source
> of energy.  However, I do not recommend the series because
> although I have read this series and most of his Xanth stuff, he's
> very limited in his description of the capacity of magic.  He
> limits it too much; for instance: in xanth everyone has one (1)
> magical ability.  In the Apprentice Adept books, an adept could
> work magic through one means- in Style's case it was through
> music.
>               Moshe Eliovson

I think that in the Apprentice Adept books, one of the points
Anthony goes to great lengths to make is the flexibility and
diversity of effects which one can create given 'just one means' of
magic work.  Thus in the books, though music is Stile's only form of
'shaping power' (the more and better music, the stronger spells he
can cast), the effects range from teleportation to transformation,
and more (it's been a while since I read the books........)

                                        AMBAR
                        {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: characters in John Varley's stories
Date: 31 Jul 85 05:32:28 GMT

*sigh* You're not just imaging it (or even imagining it).  Varley's
women typically are half as old and twice as strong, and the bad
guys are *always* male.  Well, just about.  And telling me that Gaea
is female is not weakening my point.

Despite that, Varley is one of SF's best word smiths and story
tellers, including (in my opinion) the Gaea Trilogy but not
MILLENIUM.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Pluterday
Date: 31 Jul 85 04:47:30 GMT

> From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
> John Brunner wrote it . . .

If he did, he did so under a pseudonym.  I can't remember the author
of "See You Next Pluterday", but it not only wasn't Brunner, it was
translated into English for the DAW paperback.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 85 22:33:46 EDT
From: "John f. Hardesty" <jhardest@bbncct.ARPA>
Subject: Back to the Future

                     *********SPOILER*********

        I notice that when talking about `Back to the Future`, the
talk is centralized on the fact that Marty I did to universe I and
etc.

        Another thought is that in Nineteen Fifty-five (I think this
was the year) someone was playing a song that he called an oldie but
a goodie called `Johnny B Goode` in a high school because the
guitarist had hurt his hand.  The guitarist had a brother named
Chuck who listened in to the song , like it and started using the
style in the song.  This person somehow disappeared.

        In Nineteen Fifty Five a scientist had the notion to develop
an influx unit to enable time travel but he sluffed it off until he
met this person ( Marty ) who show him that he did eventually make
the device. The young man who showed him this needed help getting
back where he came from.  The young man told him he had a letter
that stated what would happen in nineteen eighty five to the
scientist then went back to where he came from but when he went back
he went back ten minutes earlier than he left so that he could
prevent what would happen to the scientist.  He arrived in his own
time downtown just in time to see the people who would harm the
scientist pass by him. He arrives at the mall just in time to see
the man shot and himself leave for the past (1955) so that there
would not be two of him anywhere but for a short time.

        In nineteen eighty five a scientist befriends a high school
student and has him come along to see his greatest creation - a time
machine.

        The young man, Marty who went back in time, did change
individual parts of the time stream but only his parents were
affected .  After he returns to the present were the effects that he
had intialized in the past realized for him.
         He did not change one universe or start another but he went
back into his own time stream and affected some individual time
segments that would take effect only after he returns from coming
back.
        Lets banter this around
                                John Hardesty

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future"
Date: 24 Jul 85 13:39:28 GMT

> Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about:
> What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from
> 1955?
> Any comments?
>
> Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

Pervasiveness of computers and hand held calculators, of course.
Especially hand held calculators because practically everyone owns
one and there wasn't even an inkling of such in 55 except by some SF
writers.  Getting a square root without reference to a table would
have been nirvana in 1955.

In general, the revolution in electronics that has happened since 55
due to advancing technology and foreign cheap labor competition.
VCRs, SLR cameras, Fancy TVs, incredibly cheap Quartz watches, all
manners of boom boxes, mass market stereo, walkmans, remote phones,
digital dashboards, cars that talk, coke machines that talk, video
games,etc.

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 24 Jul 85 18:22:04 GMT

Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes:

>I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night I left the
>theater with this one big, sort-of psychological question: assuming
>everything happened just the way the movie said it did, how did
>people on Earth react?

This has been discussed before, but I didn't particularly agree with
any of the answers given, so I'll put my two cents worth in now.

There is an important difference between the short term and long
term effects of such an event.  As I remember, the U.S. and the
Soviet Union were about ready to go to war at that point.  I think
the events in and around Jupiter would be quite sufficient to
prevent that war.  (Of course, an outbreak of war was not certain;
it never is, until it actually happens.)

In the long run, humans are humans, and politics as usual will
resume.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: your film fantasies
Date: 24 Jul 85 14:48:12 GMT

>Well, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ was western SF (a remake of _The
>Magnificent Seven_, itself a remake of _The Seven Samurai_).  So
>was _Borderland_ (a remake of _High Noon_).

I cannot swear I know the intent of the original question, but I
disagree with both of these statements.  Corman said he always
wanted to do "SEVEN SAMURAI in space."  That doesn't make BATTLE
BEYOND THE STARS even a remake of that film, only a film that uses
some of the same situations.  I would hardly call WEST SIDE STORY a
remake of ROMEO AND JULIET or FORBIDDEN PLANET a remake of THE
TEMPEST.  And certainly the fact that a western also used ideas from
SEVEN SAMURAI does not, in itself, make BATTLE suddenly a western in
space.  There is too much difference between OUTLAND and HIGH NOON
to call one a remake.  An even if it was, that would only make it a
remake of a western in a science fiction setting, not a western
itself.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jcjeff@topaz.arpa (Richard Jeffreys)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 25 Jul 85 17:57:27 GMT

> There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from
> a few years back... anyone remember the artist?  (It wasn't
> popular for very long.)
>               Daniel R. Levy

"Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" was recorded by the
Carpenters.

The song was taken up by some organization (World Peace?) as their
"anthem" and as such the track was "beamed" into outer-space as a
goodwill message to any aliens that may be listening. As far as I
know, the song is still being "beamed" into outer-space.

I only hope any aliens who hear it like Karen Carpenters voice,
otherwise we could be in for trouble :-)

Richard Jeffreys
North American Philips Corporation
@ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Illinois

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 24 Jul 85 16:28:01 GMT

Another trilogy that was music related--at least a harp played a
large part--was Patricia McKillip's Riddle Master set.  I remember
Riddle Master of Hed, and Harpist in the Wind.  The other title
escapes me.  Is is Heir of Sea and Fire?

I am fond of this series because this was the first real fantasy I
ever read and enjoyed.  I was always a hard SF fan, from 10 years
old, but except for Tolkien (who is really in another league
altogether) I had never read fantasy.  My current husband gave me
this trilogy to read, and I got hooked.

What has this author done besides these?  Has she had any books out
recently and are they as good?
                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: druxo!knf@topaz.arpa (FricklasK)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 23 Jul 85 21:05:45 GMT

Sorry, I was just going on a dim recollection:
'Red Joystick' is definitely NOT about video games,
any more than 'Ten Inch Record' is about a girl who likes
to listen to the blues...

   Ken

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 00:12:30 PDT
Subject: Pern Music & Jon Anderson

At the end of her Hourglass Taped interview, she mentions that she
likes Jon Anderson's (From the group YES) poetry/music and was
preparing a compilation...  Anyone heard more?????

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Music in SF
Date: 26 Jul 85 05:21:07 GMT

Someone has already mentioned "The Singer Enigma" by Ann Maxwell.
She has also written "Name of A Shadow" (a *wonderful* book) which
has an unusual musical instrument, the sarsa, as a very important
part of the story.  In other arts, she has written "A Dead God
Dancing" in which one of the characters is a member of a race famous
for their dancing abilities.

A book which is not so much SF, but by a person who also writes SF
is "The Armageddon Rag" by George R. R. Martin, who also wrote the
(SF) short story "A Song for Lya" (in the collection of the same
name).
                                           Muffy

------------------------------

From: fluke!bryanf@topaz.arpa (Bryan Faubion)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 25 Jul 85 21:43:12 GMT

The album you want is called KLAATU or KLAATTU. It's a great album.
I made a tape of the album from a college roomate's disc and I still
listen to it 9 years later. Other songs on the album include:
THE NEUTRINO (not the exact title)
ANUS FROM URANUS
THE MAN WHO WENT TO HELL AND CAME BACK ALIVE (again imprecise)
and others. There are some interesting sound effects on some tunes
but the album is mostly musical. The Carpenters made a version of
"Calling occupants of interplanetary craft" which received more
airplay but is an inferior version. If I run across this album again
I will definitely buy it. As Joe Bob Briggs says: "check it out"

Bryan Faubion
John Fluke Mfg. Co.
P.O. Box C9090    M/S 243F
Everett WA  98206
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utscrgv}!uw-beaver--.
                                                            |
{decwrl!sun,decvax!microsof,ucbvax!lbl-csam,allegra,ssc-vax}-->
  !fluke!bryanf

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 25 Jul 85 14:43:36 GMT

>while waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of
>us were discussing the interface between technology/science and
>magic.  The only novel we could come up with that really treated
>the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one
>through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?

    ... Poul Anderson

        Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny

        Waldo and Magic Inc. by Robert Heinlein

        Larry Niven's Warlock series 'Not Long Before the End',
        'What Good is a Glass Dagger' and a novel whose name escapes
        me.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: LadyHawke and spoilers
Date: 24 Jul 85 15:01:19 GMT

I have never seen a review that didn't give away the curse.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"...
Date: 24 Jul 85 15:00:24 GMT

Ewoks?, be serious.  It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that
this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy
market.  They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute
noises, walked funny and had adorable skittish mannerisms otherwise
skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them up et al.
Replace the cute little fuzzy bears with imperial stormtrooper armed
with spears and I guarantee rather than being tied up we would have
had a bunch of quite deceased storm troopers. Obviously constructed
to evoke ("Oh aren't they CUTE") it was a stupid descent into
adolescent plotting, the movie would have been vastly improved if it
could have been taken seriously i.e. a real set of barbarian tribes
that commanded respect and trepidation rather than ("oh they are so
cute, we couldn't hurt a teddy bear") that we could have believed
would have given the imperials some trouble given the right
direction.  Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not
as a serious character which is to give storm troopers any
competition.

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 24 Jul 85 14:27:00 GMT

>I am not ashamed of the Ewoks I just think the costume design was
>purposefully designed to be cute...

I have to agree that "marketing" probably played a big role in the
final selection of features for the Ewoks.  HOWEVER, their very
cuteness, coupled with the primitive nature of their weapons, was
what made their (rather effective) strike at the Empire so startling
(and fun to watch....).
                                blues, II
                                (shi dobu nan)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 85 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #291
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 291

Today's Topics:

                Books - MacAvoy & Tepper,
                Music - In the Year 2525 (3 msgs) &
                        Led Zeppelin & Styx & 
                        Warren Zevon,
                Miscellaneous - SF Westerns & Banzai Quote &
                        Anti-Gravity & Quote Source &
                        Alien Races (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 10:34:22-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Book of Kells

So far, I am half way through The Book of Kells and having a great
time.  R. A. Macavoy has done a great job (the Acknowledgments are
probably worth 25 cents alone) and if it keeps up, I foresee large
sales of this book.

Which leads me to the main point: TBoK is obviously being marketed
for mass-market sales.  The book doesn't have "Fantasy" or "SF"
labels, has a cover that is very eyecatching, and a foldout inner
cover that resembles a Harlequin cover painting.

Look, I don't mind.  Perhaps a few of the people who pick this up
(probably women judging from the packaging) will enjoy this and find
the rest of her books, and then look over on the next shelf for some
more fantasy and then....

This book should do well.  It deserves to.

                        wz

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Mavin Manyshaped
Date: 25 Jul 85 20:56:04 GMT

I just bought and read the second of the Mavin Manyshaped novels.
Recommended.  Sherri Tepper has a way of phrasing moral problems
that is elegant and pleasing.  In the first book, it was explaining
rape to a young boy.  In this one, it is an exposition of the
victim/perpetrator rights problem.  All of this, and a "hard
fantasy" adventure story too.

Has anybody read "The Revenants"?  Is it as worthwhile as the True
Game series?

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 09:34 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: In the year 2525

Not only do I not remember who did the original, I just heard a "new
wave" remake that I really enjoyed.  Once again the DJ had already
done an intro, so I missed the group.  Can anyone help?

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 10:15 EDT
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: "In the Year 2525"

In #282 Sean Colbath asked:
>Can anyone tell me what group wrote/performed the song '2525' (I
>think that's the name)?

This incredible turkey (one man's opinion; no flames, please) was
penned and sung by one Zager and one Evans (I don't remember their
first names).  As I recall, Zager and Evans were a duo from Nebraska
or Kansas who hit the regional charts with this ditty.  From there
it spread like cancer to the national charts.  As far as I know,
they had never had another hit prior to "In the Year 2525," and
never had one after it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85  9:35:36 EDT
From: Ben Littauer <littauer@bbnccx.ARPA>
Subject: music & sf

The song "2525" is by a twosome named Zager and Evans (sp?) and was
released sometime in the late sixties.  I loved it as a kid, but
now...?

I haven't seen mention of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Karn Evil 9"
in all this music and SF discussion.  For lovers of progressive
rock, this is great stuff.  All about the bleak future, culminating
in a mammoth war beteween the computers and Mankind.  And oodles of
synths and electronic paraphenalia -- I love it!

"Welcome Back, My Friends, To The Show That Never Ends..."

                                                -ben-
[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people who
submitted similar information:

Hank Shiffman (Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM
Gary Swartzbaugh (Swartzbaugh.pasa@Xerox.ARPA)
Steve Lionel (lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA)
]

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: music in sf (esp. Led Zeppelin)
Date: 31 Jul 85 05:14:54 GMT

tp@wucs.UUCP (tom thumbs) writes:
> speaking of sf & music, someone mentioned hints of "Lord of the
> Rings" in Led Zeppelin... if memory serves me correctly, "Ramble
> On" from Led Zep II had lines like "in the darkest depths of
> Mordor [something] a girl so fair / but Gollum, [?] the evil one,
> crept up and slipped away with her..." and more things, enough so
> that while in an altered state of consciousness, I had a mystic
> revelation about the relationship between LZ II and LotR which
> didn't survive the translation back to reality.

<< SPOILER WARNING - if you don't know how LORD OF THE RINGS ends!>>

Y'know, it's funny.  I heard those references to Mordor and Gollum
in "Ramble On", too.  Ever since, "Stairway to Heaven" (the last cut
on the album) seemed to be telling the story of Saruman's trip west
after the destruction of the Ring.  (THE RETURN OF THE KING, Book
Six, Chapter Six, "Many Partings"; pages 322-3 in my old Ballantine
Books edition.)  Saruman would have to be "the lady", so you can't
interpret this too literally.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@topaz.arpa (Cavewoman)
Subject: fantasy in music, and vice versa
Date: 24 Jul 85 23:00:19 GMT

Styx has a song called "Lords of the Ring" on _Pieces_of_Eight_
which is vaguely Tolkienesque...  "All hail to the Lords of the
Ring,/ to the magic and mystery they bring,/ to the lands of ancient
glory.."

  In the year of the Lord, a message came from above: The heavens
  opened with a mighty sound that shook the people in the town.  And
  so we came from everywhere: the young and old, the rich and poor,
  to hear the legend of the magic ring and of the powers it could
  bring.

  (chorus and instrumentals...)

  ..and though the legend was your fantasy, we still need the hope
  it brings:

  ...all hail to the Lords of the Ring,
  to the magic and mystery they bring,
  to the promise in their story..."

Now for the 'vice versa':

There have been some pretty far-fetched examples of "music in
SF/fantasy" (e.g., "this book mentioned a rock group or musical
instrument" :-) , but I think the pipes of the Kinsmen in Richard
Cowper's _Road to Corlay_ were pretty important to the story -- what
a story!!  (the sequel was not NEARLY as good, but I'd like to hear
what you netters thought of both books).

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
x9.xes%UChicago.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.arpa
ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 09:35 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: SF Music

I suppose it ain't really SF, but the song "Roland the Headless
Thompson Gunner" is a humorous song about a ghost with revenge on
his mind by Warren Zevon.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 85 09:31:32 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: SF Westerns
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

> Has there ever been an SF Western?

[These may fall more into the category of "Western-themed SF" than
"SF Westerns"]

There was an episode of the Twilight Zone in which a present-day
"mad scientist" zaps a Western murderer, about to be hanged, into
the present, upon which the guy goes berserk and starts shooting
cars, TVs, etc.

In another episode, some present-day Army men around Little Big Horn
fall back into the past and get killed at Custer's Last Stand.

Yet another episode had the father of a family travelling west, who
are stranded in the desert running out of water and needing medicine
for their son, somehow falling into the present and getting the
needed water and penicillin.  I think the son, who survived only due
to the penicillin, eventually became someone famous.

There was also one where the highstrung, somewhat wimpy star of a
Western TV series pops into the world of the series and gets what he
deserves.

[The Twilight Zone was pretty big on time travel, wasn't it?!]

In addition, the first Hoka story, "The Sheriff of Canyon Gulch"
(??), was a Western parody.
                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 10:35:02 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Another source for Banzai quote

I heard U. Utah Phillips, the Golden Voice of the Great Southwest
(America's Most Feared Folksinger) say "Remember, no matter where [
or maybe 'how far' ] you go, there you are" while MCing the
Philadelphia Folk Festival at least ten years ago.  There you are.

Daniel Dern
ddern
at bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 85 13:11:06 EDT (Friday)
Subject: Anti-Gravity
From: Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA

The recent discussion about faster than light travel and writers
'understanding' of it prompted me to post this topic for discussion:

In many SF stories the terms anti-gravity, gravitics, etc. are
thrown about with abandon.  If there were truly an anti-gravity
device, what would it's effects be?

To start the discussion rolling, it seems to me that the only thing
holding me and my trusty keyboard to this wildly spinning globe is
gravity.  If gravity goes away, centrifugal (centripedal?) force
will put me in orbit the hard way (Through this building).

-Jim

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 16:28:30 EDT
From: Melinda Berkman <mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA>
Subject: Shalmaneser and Moira

I've always wondered where the quote that is used to authorize
real-world mode for the computer Shalmaneser in _Stand_On_Zanzibar_
is from.  Seeing it used again in Diane Duane's Star Trek novel
_The_Wounded_Sky_ has reminded me of it.  Does anyone know where "I
tell you once, I tell you twice, what I tell you three times is
true" is from?

Melinda Berkman

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 85 09:35:23 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: What Invaders Want

I just finished reading Wayne Throop's posting on this subject, in
which he says something like "Earlier postings have established that
we would have no material wealth that invading aliens would want"
(apologies for any drastic misquoting, but that was the gist of the
comment).

I don't recall anyone saying that, and I would be surprised if
anyone had.  Of course we have material wealth that invaders might
want.  It's just not likely to be the same materials we value as
wealth.  It's the old gimmick about aliens finding gold worthless
because their cities back home are built with it, but *wow* is that
really granite?

I can easily imagine a technologically advanced race scouring other
planets looking for certain elements (I dunno, Chromium, or
Tungsten, or something).  In fact, I can imagine them valuing
certain materials, which we value highly, even higher.  "Can you
believe it, Chbik?  These humanoids were *burning* their
*hydrocarbons*!"

Never having seen an episode of V (hurray for me!), I can't
conjecture too successfully on why the lizards wanted water.  But
answer this for me: were they stealing salt water or fresh water?
Or tap water?

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 11:48:55-PDT
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: Advanced races on the prowl
To: jhardest@BBNCCT.ARPA

John Hardesty's recent posting caught my attention.  While I
certainly concede his analysis of human history's driving forces for
exploration as primarily economic (exploitationist or imperialistic
also come to mind) I'm not sure that these motivations can be
ascribed to ALIENS.

Supposing that another race did come here for exploitation, we'd
surely notice... whether you choose to take this as de facto
evidence that we've had no visitors, or whether it suggests that in
all of recorded human history, any visitors we DID have were
motivated by OTHER factors, is up to you.  I find it an interesting
point, either; 1) NO VISITORS YET or 2) NO IMPERIALISTIC VISITORS
YET, BUT OTHERS.  Who knows?  Maybe we're quite literally a zoo.
(How metaphorically you want to take this when identifying the
'bars' of our zoo is also fun, but another discussion
entirely...;-).

While I haven't offered any other motivations (unless you take
seriously my speculation that we're a tourist attraction) several
(admittedly human-biased) might be; 1-aliens on pilgrimmage;
2-aliens for [Name-your-favorite-deity]; 3-aliens for scientific
knowledge; 4-aliens for nirvana-they-feel-from-our-particular-
world-based-on-chemistry-or-human-psi-radiation-or-whatever.  OK,
I'm reaching.  But we're speculating, right?  By the way, I consider
the aliens-for-slavery suggestion fairly well answered (negatively).

My trigger is that we seem to be answering the alien-motivation
question entirely from the negative aspects of our own psychology
and historical experience.  I submit that other views of aliens we
haven't yet met are just as reasonable...and considerably less
xenophobic.

Doug (dolson @ eclb.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 85 14:05:06 PDT (Friday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
Subject: The Great Silence

All this talk about why aliens would come to Earth raises a pretty
big question: Why haven't any aliens contacted Earth?  I know
there's a lot of "evidence" that Earth has had visitors, currently
and in the past, but this is far from conclusive.  To all
appearances, we are alone in a galaxy that should be teeming with
life and sentience.  And so, we are left with the mystery of what
has come to be called The Great Silence.

Those of you who read "Analog" know that David Brin has a
semi-regular column on science-fact and conjecture.  Recently, he
has done a few pieces on the question of The Great Silence.  I only
caught his most recent one, entitled "Just How Dangerous Is The
Galaxy?"  In this essay, Brin reviewed a number of hypotheses that
could explain The Great Silence.  In his previous column, he had
asked for input from his readers responding to the above big
question.  In "Just How Dangerous Is The Galaxy?" he presented the
responses, along with arguments for or against these hypotheses.

For those of you who are interested in this topic, I recommend
Brin's column.  The essay is to long to summarize here, but I will
present (in no particular order) some of Brin's hypotheses for an
explanation of The Great Silence.

  1) We are truly alone.
  2) Sentient live is just appearing in the galaxy, and
     there are no civilizations significantly more advanced
     than we are.
  3) There is a galactic interdict prohibiting contact with
     immature civilizations.
  4) We are fundamentally different from other sentients, and
     thus have little chance of contact.  For example, we might
     not be noticed by beings who lived on gas giants or were
     ethereal energy blobs.
  5) Interstellar travel and communication are impossible.
  6) Berserkers or other hostile galactics are killing off our
     friendly neighbors.
  7) Civilizations with the agressive tendencies necessary to
     drive one to interstellar expansion kill themselves off
     before they mature (cf. Nuclear Winter), and the surviving
     galactics are mellow enough to expand slowly, so they just
     haven't found us yet.

The tone of Brin's essay was rather depressing, and had me feeling
that we really are alone in the galaxy.  But, realizing this, Brin
stuck in his own pet hypothesis:

  8) Most habitable worlds are water worlds, so most other
     galactic sentients would be aquatic and incapable of
     building spacecraft.

I haven't presented Brin's arguments for the above hypotheses; I
would like to leave that for the net to discuss.  I would also be
interested in hearing any other hypotheses that could explain the
mystery of The Great Silence.

Josh Susser
<Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 85 0929-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #292
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 292

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anderson & Delany & Heinlein &
                       Lee & McKillip & Silverberg,
               Music - Jefferson Airplane & Sunflower &
                       SF References in Music,
               Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic &
                       1985 vs 1955 & Generation Ships &
                       Aliens (4 msgs) & Cuteness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 15:57 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Sub-Light Travel

One of the classic sub-light books is Poul Anderson's Tau Zero.

Plot <<S P O I L E R>>
A hydrogen-drive ship gets in a series of trouble which get it going
closer and closer to the speed of light with time-dilation effects.

------------------------------

From: ihu1g!rls@topaz.arpa (r.l. schieve)
Subject: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren
Date: 25 Jul 85 23:01:52 GMT

Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting.  It is one of the few
Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in discust.  Has anyone read
it all the way through?  Is the ending any better?  Or does it just
keep rambling on and on...?
                                Rick Schieve
                                ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 22:49:25-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: The Green Hills of Earth

Sorry, Aline, there is no complete Green Hills of Earth.

The story is about a space vagabond poet and his poems, and contains
fragments of what is supposed to be his most famous poem (TGHoE),
but the poem is not given in full.

Rather than spoil the story, I recommend it.  My copy is in

        Robert Heinlein : The Green Hills of Earth
        Pan Books, 1956

but it has been reprinted many many times.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: afc@pucc-i (Greg Flint)
Subject: Wanted: "Don't Bite the Sun" by Tanith Lee
Date: 26 Jul 85 19:03:22 GMT

I am placing this request on behalf of several friends, each of whom
would like a copy of "Don't Bite the Sun."  The sequel ("Drinking
Saphire Wine," I think) is readily available, but none of us has
been able to find DBtS.  If anyone wishes to sell a copy or knows
where a copy may be purchased, please mail me a note and I will
forward the information to my friends.

Thanks in advance.

Greg Flint
UUCP: {hplabs|ucbvax}!purdue!pucc-i!afc
      {hplabs|ucbvax}!purdue!gdf
      {decvax|ihnp4}!pur-ee!gdf
ARPA: afc@purdue-asc.arpa

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re:  Patricia McKillip
Date: 26 Jul 85 17:23:13 GMT

>Patricia McKillip's Riddle Master set.  I remember Riddle Master of
>Hed, and Harpist in the Wind.  The other title escapes me.  Is is
>Heir of Sea and Fire?

Yes.

>What has this author done besides these?  Has she had any books out
>recently and are they as good?

The only other book I know of is THE FORGOTTEN BEASTS OF ELD, which
I think is far better than the Riddle Master trilogy.  In
retrospect, the Riddle Master books seem very much like a lot of
other fantasies on the market, while TFBoE had something special --a
haunting, mythic quality that few authors have managed to achieve.
I highly recommend this one.
                                the Shadow
                                ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                                UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?
Date: 26 Jul 85 23:46:55 GMT

        Read Robert Silverberg's Guardians of the Flame series.  The
most recent one was The Silver Crown and a fourth book is supposed
to come out this fall.

        Also, this is a very easy way to "generate" fantasy
literature since all you need is a tape recorder and a very creative
dungeon master and you've got all it takes- assuming interesting
gaming.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: infopro!david@topaz.arpa (David Fiedler)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 26 Jul 85 03:48:04 GMT

Jefferson Airplane fanatics may or may not know that most of the
lyrics from the song "Crown of Creation" were taken from the
wonderful John Wyndham novel "Re-Birth".

          Dave Fiedler
{harpo,astrovax,whuxcc,clyde}!infopro!dave
People Phone: (201) 989-0570
USMail: InfoPro Systems, 3108 Route 10, Denville, NJ 07834

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR)
Subject: Re: SF with musical themes
Date: 25 Jul 85 17:20:38 GMT

How about the story that was in F&SF, sometime during the past year,
in which the narrator had a friend who was a musician--but music
which affected people's minds...  Doesn't sound too original, the
way I stated it, but I thought it was really well done.  I believe
the title was "Sunflower".
                                        AMBAR
                        {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 25 Jul 85 17:35:20 GMT

How about the song with the refrain

        ...A lesson to be learned
        Traveling twice the speed of sound
        It's easy to get burned.

Or has this already been mentioned?  (I'm not sure that I would
recognize the title.)
                                        AMBAR
                        {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand

------------------------------

From: akgua!edb@topaz.arpa (E.D. Brooks [Emily])
Subject: Re: Technology and Magic Coexisting
Date: 25 Jul 85 12:18:02 GMT

For books/stories in this vein how about Randall Garrett's "Lord
Darcy" stuff?  Most of the technology is rather magical. . .and
there's at least one about a non-believer studying material science.

Emily Brooks    akgua!edb

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!ofut@topaz.arpa (Jeff Offutt)
Subject: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" - 1985 vs 1955
Date: 25 Jul 85 17:24:02 GMT

> Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about:
> What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from
> 1955?
> Any comments?
>
> Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

One of the most surprising thing would be the continuation of the
Cold War.  Quite a chilling thought, eh?

To a science fiction fan, the lack of meaningful space exploration
would be disappointing.  To others, the space exploration we have
done would be amazing.

As far as the electronics go, I think the average person would
expect something along those lines -- though perhaps not quite what
we do have.

Jeff Offutt
School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ofut

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: generation ships
Date: 26 Jul 85 15:25:52 GMT

On generation ships:

I think that a granddaddy of the genre is "Starship" by Brian
Aldiss.  Unfortunately, it has been years since I read it--and I
can't remember my impressions.  I see it lots in used book
sections--it should be easy to pick up.

Also, the "Cities in Flight" set of novels by James Blish probably
fit in this category.  They are collected in one volume by that
name.  I think there are 4 of them.  They concern cities which have
drives on them, called spindizzies.  The cities are sort of the
migrant workers of the galaxy.  They do not quite fit--since they do
travel faster than light.  But they ARE ships designed for
generations of travelers.  I like these.

Hope this helps.
                                     Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 25 Jul 85 18:01:54 GMT

The enslavement of entire races is a common enough theme all over
the place.  First examples to come to mind are "The Word for World
is Forest" by Ursula K.LeGuin, the Velantians (slaves to the
Overlords in the Lensman series), and the lion-like aliens in
"Warriors' Gate" in Dr.Who.

Generally races are enslaved for one of the following reasons:

(a) The slavers are just natural slavers at heart.  This is
    the case in Sundiver, etc.  They think that enslavement
    is the natural state of affairs.

(b) The slaves can do something the slavers can't.  This is
    true of the lion-like aliens in Dr.Who -- they had psychic
    abilities that allowed them to navigate in space (around
    meteor showers, through asteroid belts, etc.).  It occurs
    to me, this was also the reason that the Slavers enslaved
    the Tnuctipun in Niven's known space series.

(c) The number of slavers is too small to do some job they want
    to do.  In this case, the slavers are technologically advanced
    enough to control large numbers of slaves, and these slaves are
    the ones who will do the work.  Note that the slavers can
    actually be sympathetic characters if this is their motivation:
    they have something vastly important to do and must take
    repulsive measures to achieve their ends.

                 Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: tekmdp!johnr@topaz.arpa (John Rutis)
Subject: Why Aliens Would Come to Earth
Date: 24 Jul 85 22:19:18 GMT

The reason for an alien race to want to come to Earth and the reason
not to are perfectly summed up in "From Gustibl's Planet" by
Cordwainer Smith.

John Rutis

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Advanced races and overpopulation
Date: 23 Jul 85 03:55:00 GMT

Easing population pressure by shipping the extra people off-planet
is a nice idea.  Unfortunately, like far too many nice ideas, it has
a number of major holes.  If you want to have a good read while you
find them, go read RAH's "Time Enough For Love."  Otherwise, keep
reading.

Problem 1: Do you really think that Joe Shmoe in The Street really
WANTS to go to Arcturus??? Really, now!  Even if Arcturus makes Eden
look like the middle of a tornado, all Joe wants is a nice home on
the Riviera.  He knows what the Riviera looks like, and that he's
supposed to like it.  He doesn't know what Arcturus looks like, and
probably wouldn't believe you if you told him.  Good old Fear Of The
Unknown lends humanity a hand once again!

Problem 2: Okay, lets use subterfuge, along the lines of the
Kornbluth's "Marching Morons."  In that case, why use all those
now-scarce resources sending the neighborhood idiots to Arcturus?
Even then, without a healthy percentage of Minds and Pioneer types,
dumping all those nebishes would be tantamount to genocide anyway.
But then, we won't go in to ethical questions, because we're all
cold blooded Vulcans.

Problem 3: I've got it! We'll send the brains to Arcturus and leave
the nebishes to ruin the Earth by themselves.  First, what makes you
think the nebishes will fund all us science fiction freaks landing
on Arcturus anyway.  We might be getting something good that they
weren't.  Second, what makes you think that a 2% decrease in world
population will make a difference?  It grows that much in a few
years anyway.  And remember, population growth is a power curve that
cuts out only when the good old Four Horses catch up with it.

Thus, colonization is an ineffective method of removing population
pressure.  One thing will work however: internal control, such as
China's.  I won't go so far as to advocate out-and-out eugenics,
because that can backfire magnificently (witness Dorsai! and "Space
Seed"/"The Wrath of Khan").  However, we'd better start doing
something to curb population pressure, or good ol' Mother
Nature/Human Nature will grab the ball and run.  Soil depletion in
the cradle of civilization, Africa.  World War Three.  Famine in
inner India.  Inner city violence in North America and Europe.  Read
the play Our Town sometime, or the last portion of TEFL, and
contrast with a current city.  Living without locks on the doors?
Leaving valubles in an open car?  Walking through Central Park
*After Dark?* Good Lord, its positively UnAmerican!!!  And theres
always mass insanity of course.

But don't worry.  Even if humans go the way of the Dinosaurs, Mother
Nature still has raw material to work with.  If we go by Nuclear
conflict, that still leaves the Ants and Cockroaches.  And after
that, the Dolphins (or what remains of them) will get they're chance
on land.  Nature never gives up, she just gets sidetracked for a
while.  After all, you're sitting here reading this!

I'm going to stop before this gets too depressing.  There is one
thing I can have hope in: once a permanent, self-supporting,
off-Earth colony is established, Man is unlikely to die out.  The
catch is that societies don't work towards their own long term
survival.  Individuals do, and this creates societies as a side
effect.  Philosophers are more comfortable when they have plenty of
paper and a free meal ticket.  They don't like standing behind a
plow.
                                        orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens
Date: 26 Jul 85 21:29:13 PDT (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what seems to me the most obvious
reason: distances in space are !!!ENORMOUS!!!, far beyond human
capacity to perceive.  Remember the definition of "infinite" given
in the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy?  "Big, multiplied by
colossal, multiplied by staggeringly huge ...".  An understatement,
certainly, but aiming in the right direction.  Isn't it more than
likely that, in all that unthinkable volume, our little planet just
hasn't been noticed?  Consider:

- All our radio and TV signals (and whatever other kinds we've been
  generating) can't be more than 50 or 60 light-years out by now.
  Furthermore, the ones at the front must be in pretty rotten shape:
  besides the attenuation as they describe the surface of an
  expanding sphere, the equipment that produced them wasn't very
  good to begin with.

- The only other way I've heard of to detect a planet is to examine
  any eccentricity in its sun's motion; and I have no idea how well
  Earth can be detected that way, since we have 8 competitors,
  including some real heavyweights (though it is true that they are
  at much greater distances).

- Even from a relatively low height above Earth, no signs of
  civilisation can be detected.  You have to be surprisingly low
  before you can see regularities in surface patterns around New
  York, for instance, or the wanderings of the Great Wall of China.
  Though I grant that anybody scanning the EM bands at that distance
  should be bombarded with regular signals.

How, then, is any non-Terran going to know that there is anything
(like a planet) or anybody here to visit?  This seems to me the most
likely reason.

       Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1985 06:10:04-EDT
From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
Subject: Re:  cuteness

Obviously none of you guys have kids yet.  The adaptive advantage of
'cuteness' in human offspring, and animal offspring too, is
that it keeps their PARENTS from killing them.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Aug 85 0955-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #293
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 293

Today's Topics:

                Books - Niven,
                Films - Cocoon & Back to the Future,
                Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic (2 msgs) &
                        Going into Space & Cuteness &
                        Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: Protector psychology
Date: 22 Jul 85 23:48:00 GMT

Something has been bothering me about the psychology of Niven's
human-origin Protectors.  To remind people: human-origin Protectors
are humans infected with a certain virus.  There are a few minor
physical changes, like almost unlimited life.  The mental changes
are superintelligence and a desire to protect his/her relatives
and/or humanity in general.

However, consider two sets of human protectors mentioned in the
Known Space series:

Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of
the hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the
population of Home (several million people).  Many of these people
killed are their relatives.  They do this to preserve humanity in
general in the long term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order
of 20 billion people).  They seem to have no major qualms about
this.

Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the
solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent
destruction.  Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a
few years, but she refrains because using the system would kill 5%
of the population.

So what gives?  Is killing a few million relatives OK but killing a
few trillion hominids not? Is the kill-to-saved ratio the correct
parameter to consider?  I don't understand.  Any speculation?

Tim McDaniel; CSRD at the Silicon Prairie
(Center for Supercomputing Research and Development at the
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign)
Usenet: ...{pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!mcdaniel
Csnet: mcdaniel%uiuc@csnet-relay.arpa (really!)
Arpa: mcdaniel@Uiuc.arpa
Bitnet: MCDANIEL@UIUCVMD

------------------------------

Subject: Re: "Cocoon" query  (* SPOILER !!! *)
Date: 27 Jul 85 01:29:18 PDT (Sat)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

>                           ** SPOILER **
> The boat captain (whose name I've forgotten) is left floating in a
> rubber raft when the "Arcturians" and the old people are lifted up
> to the mothership in his boat.  Presumably, he survives.  A little
> later, though, we see the funeral scene, suggesting that the old
> folks are thought to have drowned.
>
> Wouldn't our hero return to civilization to find himself charged
> with thirty counts of manslaughter, at the very least?
>
> Should I put this down to another case of Hollywood playing fast
> and loose with reason, or am I missing something?

I have no intention of defending Hollywood (they don't just play
fast and loose with reason, they skip it entirely), but I don't
think there is anything too inconsistent here.

I don't actually recall anything to suggest the skipper wasn't
charged; though, considering the circumstances, I doubt very much
whether the charges would have been manslaughter.  Failure to obey
orders from the Coast Guard, more likely.

Had he cheerfully abandoned all the old people at midday in a calm,
clear sea, and had they subsequently vanished, I think he would have
been in for a VERY tough time in court.  But that didn't happen.  It
was dark, and there was such a fog that 3 Coast Guard cutters were
just about immobilised (and they are VERY professional; if they're
incapacitated it's quite reasonable that a charter boat skipper
would be, too).

I'm sure that, as the skipper, he would face an inquiry, (especially
for having failed to obey a direct order from the Coast Guard), and
the prosecutor might try to take it to court; but with almost no
evidence, about all he could be successfully charged with is failure
to obey; and he might even weasel out of that if he pleaded the
condition of his boat (though it might be preferable to charges of
taking the old people out in an unsafe vessel).  After all, nobody
can inspect the boat to (dis)prove whatever he says about it.  It
may even that, knowing well enough what sort of trouble would be
waiting for him, he worked out his story ahead of time with Walter's
people.  He could, in fact, say almost whatever he wanted, and the
prosecutor could do nothing about it except try to catch him in
inconsistencies.

He would come out of it squeaky clean; but then, he wasn't in good
shape before the affair started.  He probably won't be doing anymore
chartering for a while to come, even if he does get a new boat with
that massive wad Walter paid him.  Nevertheless, to judge by the
last seen of him in the movie, I think he'll still be happier than
he had been for a long time.

Alastair Milne
PS.  I saw a letter in the LA Times complaining that Cocoon
suggested that the solution to the "problem" of old people was to
pack them off to Mars.  It seems to me this doesn't merely miss the
point, it actually gets it backward.  Quite the opposite of being
"dumped", they were being offered the only course by which they
could still have long, useful lives; and this was so attractive to
most of them, especially after their long internment in the rest
home, living for nothing, that even the prospect of parting from
their children and grandchildren didn't hold them back.

Opinions?

------------------------------

Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 18:20:08-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Back to The Future and Parallel Universes

                               *SPOILER*

> From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky)
> Nah, Marty I going back in time is actually Marty I going to the
> 1950's in the-universe-in-which-Marty-I-goes-to-the-50's (ie,
> universe II)....  My question is, what happens to Marty II when he
> takes off in the DeLorean for the ``past?''  Does he go to the
> 1950's of universe I -- or somewhen else entirely?  Off hand, I'd
> have to vote for the latter; a closed loop in the multiverse seems
> to be a pretty nasty violation of causality in the system.

Personally, I think the time-travel "system" BTF was based on is one
where the universe adapts when you change the past, rather than
there being lots of parallel universes.

One thing I don't understand in either interpretation is the clock
in the Professor's house (at the beginning of the movie) which has a
man hanging off the face of a clock.  Where did he get that clock?

The parallel universe does raise some interesting questions.
Assuming Marty I travels back to Universe II, then Marty II has to
take off for Universe III (the Universe which is just like Universe
II, except that the Marty who travelled back in time into that
universe had already lived through a Universe where Marty I had
travelled back in time).  Marty III of course goes to Universe IV,
etc.  It seems that we have an infinite number of Universes.

        1) Since no Marty travels to Universe I, it seems that we
end up with one less Marty.  This is OK, since infinity-1 =
infinity, but from the standpoint of Universe I, some matter has
just ceased to exist (i.e., one DeLorean and one Marty).  Isn't that
illegal or something?

        2) Do the Universes converge?

        3) Each travel back in time creates a new countably infinite
dimension of universes, so the total number of universes at any
given time (sic) is countable.  Is there any way to create an
uncountable number of universes?

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 25 Jul 85 20:56:02 GMT

> From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
> while waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of
> us were discussing the interface between technology/science and
> magic.  The only novel we could come up with that really treated
> the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one
> through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?  (I have forgotten
> again, even though it was a fantastic book.  Any help?)

Drat, I can't remember either!  I think it is either John Brunner or
Gordon Dickson, but I wouldn't bet the rent.  (I suppose I'll have
to find my copy of the book if nobody else comes up with the
answer.)

> Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein.

Well, yes.  The Piers Anthony "Incarnations of Immortality" series
contains this notion, and is tolerably readable.  Better still is
Saberhagen's "Empire of the East" trilogy and the Books of Swords.

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: Tech/sci & magic--esp. Anthony's Apprentice Adept
Date: 26 Jul 85 23:58:22 GMT

Based on Chris Miller's inquiry I wrote that Piers Anthony's
Apprentice Adept series was a good interrelation between science &
magic, but that I believed Anthony limited magic too much.

> I think that in the Apprentice Adept books, one of the points
> Anthony goes to great lengths to make is the flexibility and
> diversity of effects which one can create given 'just one means'
> of magic work.

This is true, he didn't limit the scope of the magic, only the means
to produce it.  He loves to strictly define things.  My personal
preference is for more freedom.

POLL: Which type of magic do you prefer?

Choices:
1) Memorized & specially developed spells & artifacts (for instance
   Jack Vance or Master of the Five Magicks)

2) Adept magic (like Merlin or Gandalf)

3) objective magic, such as Piers Anthony's Xanth or Apprentice
   Adept where magic is strictly defined

4) Holy/Divine magic, demons & devils (Glen Cook's El Murid or Brian
   Daley's in The Starfollowers of Coramonde)

5) SF, as in mechanical magic (The Runestaff Series by Moorcock)

6) Other - please give a short explanation

Send your replies direct and I'll post the results.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jul 85  1:11:16 EDT
From: "John f. Hardesty" <jhardest@bbncct.ARPA>
Subject: Why would we go in to space

Why would we leave this planet?

The several possibilities are:

1. Exploration
2. Colonization
3. Escape
4. Invitation
5. Expansionist (Manifest Destiny)
6. Dumb Luck (My favorite)

The first , exploration, is the simplest to talk about.. even though
we are a violent race (by nature) we have an insatiable curiosity
and the desire to know something about what we do not know.

The second , colonization, although different would probally follow
the exploration part because first we explore.. Colonization might
happen because the ability to procreate , unchecked is unfortunately
our biggest problem (worldwide that is) has forced us to either stay
on earth or find greener pastures.  As human history has shown most
discoverys of new territory (ie the New World ) by early explorers
other than Columbus has been because people are looking for a better
place to live..

The third escape , could be a group of scientific types or a group
counter to the current regime decides that instead of staying and
suffering that they would explore the the galaxy searching for a
better place ( similar to two but not quite)

The fourth reason might be an invitation by a space faring race to
become a space faring race by their assistance.

The fifth reason might be that one group has conquered the earth
(politically)and wants to spread its brand of philosophy across the
galaxy by conquering and freeing any down trodden beings ....

The last reason that i put down is dumb luck... I think this has the
best reason to go.. some one will accidently figure out the way to
travel greater distances in shorter time so we could explore the
galaxy and by some chance it works and we get out into space and are
not wiped out by other space faring races that we are imposing on
their territory and find some habitable planet under another G class
star that is uninhabited and that we would bring our technology and
start poluting that world as well and keep going and becoming the
star slob of the galaxy... yes our race, the human race, will trash
your planetary systems with garbage that you have never thought of
as pollution but then again maybe we will blow ourselves up.. and a
space faring race will laugh at us and declare us a nuclear hot
zone.

Another reason no space faring race has come here is that maybe we
are the Cleveland of star systems i mean maybe we have nothing to
offer a space faring race except television....

John Haredsty
Jhardest@bbncct

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 25 Jul 85 17:29:09 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>Interesting theory about cuteness: we did it ourselves.
>
>This has nothing to do with the discussion of Ewoks being cute, but
>it's an interesting hypothesis.  Baby animals are "cute" primarily
>because humans find them cute.  Over millions of years of
>evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait,
>because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all
>was reluctant to kill cute animals.  Of course there are good
>physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies,
>but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well.

To consider the pointless diversion a bit more, I suspect that
cuteness is intended (in the evolutionary sense) to appeal to the
adults of the same species, exempting the young from competition
and/or getting the parents to feed them.  By and large only the
young of species which feed their young are cute.

By your theory, cockroaches should be almost intolerably cute. :-)

------------------------------

From: lindley@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (John L. Templer)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 27 Jul 85 03:15:53 GMT

> This is probably not quite what you were after, but hopefully
> still relevant.  In SUNDIVER and STARTIDE RISING, David Brin has
> postulated an interesting idea: the enslavement of an entire race.
> (Has anyone seen this idea before? If so, where?)

Well, there's Larry Niven's short story "What Can You Do With
Chocolate Covered Manhole Covers?", which is found in the anthology
"All the Myriad Ways."  The idea in that story is that an alien race
seeded humans on Earth as a means to improve the stock among their
servant race (us).

> Now, this sounds highly plausible to me.  Wouldn't humanity
> benefit from having access to the *entire* scientific, artistic,
> and philosophical output of another intelligent species?

Assuming that you mean humans interacting with a more advanced race,
then I don't think that would necessarily be such a good idea.  I
pretty much agree with the idea that the more advanced civilization
would destroy the other, even if accidentaly.

> Taking it as a given that humans have a different perspective on
> life, the universe, and everything (sorry, Doug) from our
> hypothetical aliens, we might have something(s) they would kill
> (or even cross interstellar space) to get.

About the only things I can see a race traveling interstellar
distances to obtain are such items as life extending drugs (like
Niven's booster spice), or cultural items.  A planet or star system
might have too little of some material like a certain metallic
element, but they wouldn't need to get that from another
civilization; they'd just find some nice uninhabited rock ball and
mine it themselves.

> As to expense; once you collect a sufficient sample, you cart them
> to your own system, give them a "game preserve," and they will be
> self supporting.  You just quietly skim a few off the top every
> year to fill your own needs.  (Now, does anyone want to discuss
> the large number of disappearances every year on this planet?)
> BTW, does any- one know just how many people it would take to
> "guarantee" a safe gene pool?  How about cultural continuity?

See above.

John L. Templer,  University of Texas at Austin
{allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #294
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 294

Today's Topics:

         Books - Asimov & Heinlein & McKiernan & Rosenberg,
         Films - Star Trek,
         Music - Moorcock & Biggle & SF Using Songs &
                 Silverberg & Story Request & Hubbard,
         Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) & Generation Ships &
                 Christopher Lloyd

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat 27 Jul 85 17:55:08-EDT
From: Seshashayee Murthy <Sesh.Murthy@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
Subject: Name of Asimov book

I recently read the first part of a story by Asimov.  I cannot
remember the name of the story or the magazine.  Can anyone
paraphrase the remaining portion of the story or tell me the name of
the book.

A young man comes to a planet as an apprentice.  He is to help in
obtaining energy from the planet's neutron star.  He is however more
interested in finding out about the hallucinations that people on
the planet seem to suffer when they leave the dome.  He leaves the
dome one day and finds out that the hallucinations are merely
attempts by the local life-form to communicate with humans.  It is
capable of communicating using telepathy. He has an extended
conversation with it.  He learns of the creature's despair at its
planet being taken over by humans.  When he returns he is summoned
by the boss.

I never found the later issues of the magazine and now I do not
remember the name.

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Number of the Beast
Date: 26 Jul 85 19:48:14 GMT

Admittedly, he does go a bit heavy on the sex; but with *today's*
books, I have learned to ignore it and get to the meat of the
story... in this case, it's a fun romp and nothing else.  Are you so
insistent on perfect science, et al., that you ignore everything
else?  If so, go re-join the anti-1999 crowd; we who don't insist
that science FICTION be fact will be happier.

It IS getting a bit obvious that he's going into a contracting
spiral into the vortex of {sexy Competent Woman}, though.

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: re: Signet's paperback version of _The Iron Tower_ trilogy.
Date: 27 Jul 85 18:16:47 GMT

In response to a previous posting about the Signet paperbacks of
_The Iron Tower_ trilogy:

Book one, _The Dark Tide_, is/was set for release in August...
*However*, I just returned from my local bookstore, and copies
already are on the shelves and selling (I autographed thirty-one
before I got out of there).

Book two, _Shadows of Doom_, is set for release in September.

Book three, _The Darkest Day_, is set for release in October.

Signet has done a fine job: Superb cover art by Alan Lee.  Words, of
course, by yours truly.

I hope that you enjoy them.

Dennis L. McKiernan
{ihnp4!}cbuxc!dim

------------------------------

From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?
Date: 27 Jul 85 17:10:38 GMT

From: wucs!busch!mte@seismo (Moshe Eliovson)
>       Read Robert Silverberg's Guardians of the Flame series.

Guardians of the Flame is by Joel Rosenberg, not Robert Silverberg.
When I asked him at Boskone, Mr. Rosenberg said these would be
coming out at the rate of about one a year for "a while".  My guess
is that the next one will be out next spring sometime; The Silver
Crown came out in March.

He also said that when he's not doing Guardians, he'll be doing more
SFish stuff.  So far he's got one book out besides the Guardians
books, called Ties of Blood and Silver.
                                                -Dragon
UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 27 Jul 1985 17:25-EDT
From: sdl@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Re: Star Trek & Grace Lee Whitney

>Ms. Whitney was in Star Trek III: she was the barmaid who talked to
>McCoy!

Grace Lee Whitney was in Star Trek III, all right, but not as the
barmaid.  (According to the closing credits, that part was played by
Sharon Thomas.)  Ms. Whitney was the woman in the restaurant who
stood up to watch (and reminisce) as the Enterprise pulled in to
dock.

Steven Litvintchouk
(617)271-7753

------------------------------

From: convexs!sheppard@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in music
Date: 25 Jul 85 23:41:00 GMT

Michael Moorcock, author of the "Jewel in the Skull" and "Elric" sf
series (among others), wrote the lyrics for at least two songs on
Blue Oyster Cult's "Extraterristrial Live" album. One of them is
named "Black Blade", and is based on Elric's black runesword
Stormbringer. I don't happen to remember the other song at the
moment.

Andy Sheppard
Convex Computer Corporation

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: music in sf
Date: 22 Jul 85 19:10:36 GMT

> From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
> Without refering to my collection, that's all I can think of
> offhand.  McCaffrey's the only author I know of who really uses
> music as an important part of the story.

Llyod Biggle Jr's THE STILL SMALL VOICE OF TRUMPETS is one example,
but nearly everything of Biggle's features music in one way or
another.  (Just in general, by the way, I like Biggle quite a bit.)

                -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: More SF using Songs
Date: 26 Jul 85 20:50:26 GMT

A few more SF stories using songs:

Anne McCaffrey's DRAGONFLIGHT, wherein the Question Song and the
        Ballad of Moreta's Ride convince Lessa that she can jump
        back in time 400 years to bring forward the personnel &
        dragons of 5 Weyrs;

CRYSTAL SINGER by the same author, wherein ``singing'' is used to
        locate crystals with rather unusual properties of
        sympathetic vibration;

THE GREEN HILLS OF EARTH by Robert A Heinlein, which is an
        explanation to a song;

STARDANCE and its sequel, by Spider Robinson;

STAR FIRE by Ingo Swann, about a rock singer whose ability to ``get
        in tune with his audience'' turns out to be exactly what it
        says.

I have a bunch of others hovering at the back of my mind refusing to
be acknowledged; maybe someone else will jog my memory.  BTW, I make
no claims on the readability of any of these stories, merely that
they have songs as major or semi-major parts.

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

Date: Sat 27 Jul 85 10:22:12-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re: Music in SF (or, Notes From All Over)

> From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX (marty moore)
> I'm surprised no one has mentioned "A Work of Art" by James Blish.
> It concerns the revivification, as a scientific experiment, of the
> composer Richard Strauss in the year 2161.

I just read the story "Gianni" by Robert Silverberg, reprinted in
/The Conglomeroid Cocktail Party/.  It's about the revivification,
as a scientific experiment of the composer Gianni Pergolesi in the
year 2008.  Sound familiar?  Well, yes and no.  The story is quite
different, although it starts out essentially the same.  Since "A
Work of Art" is much older, it seems likely Silverberg wrote this as
a variation on that story.

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music or vice versa
Date: 26 Jul 85 20:32:53 GMT

grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) writes:
> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging
> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of
> written SF in which music played a dominant theme?  One such might
> be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_.

I remember a novel in which a young man who hated music was sent
back into time to become Ludwig Von Beethoven... actually living his
entire adult life.  The premise was that history had to be created
in the future, which was pretty weak but barely plausible, although
never followed up (it was mentioned once at the beginning of the
story, nowhere else).

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

From: <bang!root@Nosc>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 85 23:55:24 pdt
Subject: Music AND Science Fiction - Battlefield Earth

L. Ron Hubbards latest epic; "Battle Field Earth" comes complete
with ads for the 'dynamic' musical score that he wrote for the book.
I guess you're supposed to play the record while reading the novel.

Has anyone heard the music?  Is it any good?  The book itself was
mediocre, I can guess what the music must be like.

Bret Marquis
bang!bam@NOSC

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 85 11:18:08 PDT (Saturday)
From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Would a technologically advanced race advance race want

John f. Hardesty writes:
>     "As to a technologically advanced race subjugating another
>race, technology is no indication of socio-political advancements.
>As to wondering where this can be seen, just read your history
>books... The Europeans over the native americans empires of the
>1400-1500`s . The Europeans were considered the most advanced of
>the time and yet they enslaved the Aztecs and Incan people..."

     Isn't the level of technology a race has limited by the ethics
of the people?  For example if it were generaly accepted as being ok
to steal and rob, then the average man cannot invest his time an
energy in inventing new technologies, or even maintain current
technology once it gets very advance.  It being much easier to
destroy items of high technology.
     The Europeans were technologically more advanced than the rest
of the world in the 1400's, but their attitudes had to change before
they could continue to develop.  The type of conduct displayed in
America would not be condoned today.
      The problems of today, for example racism, through bad, are an
improvment over a hundred years ago.  The almost primitive attitudes
of judging a man by the color of his skin is a immaturity which a
more advanced race could not afford to carry.  To maintain a high
technology you need to use the potential of each man.
     I tend to think that any technologically advanced race with our
kind of individual mode of operation must have a fairly strong sense
of ethics.  Now the good old hive-mind race might mistreat the
natives, but once communication is established it could be shown
that trade was more profitable than conquest.
     Also there maybe criminal individuals, but these are the
exceptions in any society.

Henry III                               cate3.sv@Xerox.arpa

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 26 Jul 85 17:25:13 GMT

I'd like to make some clarifications on some points raised about an
earlier article.

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>> Living space might be a reason, [for alien invasion] but would
>> require an unreasonably advanced transport technology to make it
>> feasible and at the same time have the technology level low
>> enough to preclude easier solutions to population pressure (such
>> as Ringworlds).  (The exception is when cost is no object, eg,
>> the aliens need to escape from a supernova or the like.)
>
> First of all, I doubt that Ringworlds are an easier solution to
> population pressure.  It takes a lot of energy for interstellar
> travel, but it takes a lot more to build a ringworld.

I have no idea how much energy must be expended to build a
ringworld.  But I seriously doubt it would be as much as the energy
required to boost the life support and posessions of several billion
alien folks to near-lightspeed.

> Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there
> is such a thing as enough living space.  Exponential growth will
> use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order.  So
> we have a ringworld.

That *is* a fallacy all right.  But I don't agree that it is "here",
in the sense of my asserting that there is such a thing as "enough
living space".  All I said was that aliens looking to increase their
living space would probably emulate Holland rather than Spain.
(That is, they would construct some rather than exploring to get
it.)  I based this assertion on the relative costs as they seem to
me with known or extrapolated technology.

> In short, our children *can* go to the stars; and even come back.

Quite so.  Explorers and trade can be sent to the stars.  However, I
still have my doubts about wholesale export of populace.

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Slaves & such
Date: 26 Jul 85 21:29:55 GMT

jcr@mitre-bedford writes:
>In questioning the assertion about slavery, I wrote something like:
>   Would slaves have any value at all to an advanced race?  At some
>   point, machine labor becomes cheaper & more efficient than slave
>   labor, & once a race has passed this point, what use would they
>   have for slaves? Of course one might argue that this applies
>   only to physical labor, & perhaps they'd have use for
>   intelligent slaves in other sorts of labor (nightmare scenario:
>   aliens kidnap the entire human race & make accountants of us
>   all!).
>I have to stand by this too; I've yet to see a convincing line of
>reasoning to the contrary. (Please remember that I'm not really
>discussing the TV series "V" here, but rather the more general
>assertions I delineated above.)

What is there to gain from slavery?  The same thing HUMAN
slave-owners get out of it.  That feeling of owning a life, the
biggest ego-boost possible outside a thionite dream.  And believe
me, humans feel it; the heady feeling of power attracts many people.
Despite the well-known fact that slaves are uneconomic for the
reasons you stated.

>An interesting possibility occurs to me. Imagine a race whose
>evolution has been similar to that of Vulcans, from an emotional &
>violent past to a very cold & rational present. But this race has
>gone even further; they've lost emotion to the extent that they are
>now totally unable to create art. How- ever, they can still
>appreciate it, and works of art from their distant past are highly
>treasured. What would happen if such a race discovered humanity as
>we currently are? Might they take us as slaves, forcing us to
>create artworks for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the
>kidnapped humans create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering
>contributes to great art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the
>aliens know the difference? Has anyone read anything like this?

I read one, but I remember neither title nor author.

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1985 14:16:04-EDT (Sunday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: generation ships

Some titles are:

Captive Universe by Harry Harrison
Exiles Trilogy by Ben Bova
(Exiled from Earth, Flight of Exiles, End of Exile)
Starburst by Jack Williamson

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 85  15:52 EDT (Sun)
From: Mijjil <LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Subject: Christopher Lloyd

Haven't we also neglected to mention his bit part in the Jack
Nicholson film "Going South"?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #295
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 295

Today's Topics:

                    Films - The Black Cauldron,
                    Music - SF in Music,
                    Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic &
                            Cuteness (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Black Cauldron
Date: 28 Jul 85 00:18:15 GMT

The Black Cauldron (PG, Walt Disney Productions) is the latest full
length animated film from the studio that created and defined the
standards of animation with films like 'Snow white' and 'Pinochio'.
The Disney people are declaring this to be a new classic, and while
the film falls well short of that lofty goal, it is a significant
improvement from such Disney films as 'Fox and the Hound' and '101
Dalmations'.

The storyline has a few flaws -- in general it moves well, but there
are some problems that keep it from being completely convincing.
There is a sudden appearance of a magic sword at a critical place
with no real explanation that is just TOO convenient, and the
overall theme seems to be 'It doesn't matter HOW idiotic you are, if
you are good, you'll end up on top...' Not, unfortunately, very
realistic.

My biggest gripes are technical, though. The animation is very
uneven, with some parts of the film jumping off the screen like the
best that Disney has ever produced, while other parts are very muddy
and passive.  There are continuity problems (some of the fairies
randomly change clothing, and certain objects seem to be carried
only when they are needed).  Some of the special effects, especially
any time they try to show running water, fall flat on their face.
The animators have worked very hard at creating a very dark and
oppressing atmosphere, unfortunately in many cases they cross the
line and simply become washed out and murky. It definitely isn't a
classic film, but it certainly isn't the worst Disney has produced
-- I rate it somewhere about about Alice in Wonderland or Jungle
Book for technical quality -- well above clunkers such as Bedknobs
and Broomsticks or Sword in the Stone, but certainly not a Snow
White, either.

Disney needed to work harder at the characterizations. With the
exclusion of the young boy here (also known as the Klutz with the
Golden Heart) and the funny looking thing called Gurgie (also known
as the Ewok Clone -- keep an eye on toy stores for this one,
folks...) I didn't care about anyone in the film. The 'princess' was
especially bad -- she reminded me more of Wendy or Princess Leia
than anything else, and seemed badly out of place.  The evil Horned
King was inked so darkly that you never got a good look at him --
they seemed to be attempting to build the horror by inference
instead of by showing the king. Unfortunately, I don't think it
worked very well. The Horned King might just have well stayed
offstage.

In general, I was disappointed with Black Cauldron, but not nearly
as disappointed as I thought I would be. It was worth seeing, but I
don't think it will have the staying power Disney thought it would
have. I wonder how it would have turned out had Don (Secret of NIHM)
Bluth, who was working on the film before he left Disney to found
his own studio, had been able to do the film.

A couple of trivia comments on the film--

Listed in the credits under 'Additional Dialogue' was the name 'Roy
E.  Disney'. Roy Disney was Walt's brother, and at one time head of
Walt Disney Productions. It gives you an idea how long they have
been trying to put this film together, since he retired from the
company in the 70's sometime.

One of the fairy folk, also, looked suspiciously like Peter Pan. In
general, all of the fairy folk drove me up the wall -- I kept making
snide 'Wendy-bird' comments throughout every scene they were in.
They were just TOO cute for my taste -- stolen from both "Peter Pan"
and "Fantasia" simultaneously, they seem to have gotten the worst of
both...

Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Science Fiction/Fantasy <--> Music
Date: 28 Jul 85 01:33:08 GMT

This topic seems to be surviving, so I just thought I'd throw in my
two cents.  I don't remember seeing any of these instances before,
but I might have missed them.

Music as a major theme in stories:

_The Infinity Concerto_ by Greg Bear: The premise of this story is
that Faery is a real place, and the Sidhe exist, and the way you get
to meet them is my manipulating one of the creative arts to produce
a "work of power."  The Infinity Concerto is an example of one such
work, and its only performance is responsible for many people
crossing over from our world to Faery.  One of the best fantasy
novels I've read in some time, even if it is the first book in a
trilogy...

_The Demolished Man_ by Alfred Bester: I guess that music isn't
really a *major* thematic device here, but here's how it fits in.
The psychopath who wants to commit the perfect murder in a society
where the police have perfected telepathy as an interrogation
technique.  This makes it practically impossible to get away with
anything.  He attempts to outwit the cops by asking a friend of his
who writes advertising jingles which are so effective that it's
quite impossible to forget them.  He puts his mind to work on one of
her best, and thus masks out his thoughts.

Science Fiction or Fantasy references in music:

"Ride my Llama," _Rust Never Sleeps_ by Neil Young.
        "I really got some news,
         I met a man from Mars.
         He picked up all my guitars
         And played me traveling songs.

         And when we got on ship,
         He brought out something for the trip.
         He said, "It's old but it's good,"
         Like any other primitive would."

"Sail Away," _The Grand Illusion_ (?) by Styx.  Another song about
alien visitors.  There may be other examples from the Styx
discography, (Mr.  Roboto?)  but I don't keep up with them any more.
Kansas is probably another good candidate, judging from their album
cover artwork.

"Hey Mr. Spaceman," _Fifth Dimension_ by the Byrds.  One of my
favorite space songs about inexplicable nocturnal visitors.  "I hope
they get home all right!"

"Freezing Steel," _Catch Bull at Four_, by Cat Stevens: This song is
cryptic enough that it's tough to tell what's going on, but it
appears that our hero has been kidnapped by pirates from Venus for
purposes shrouded in mystery.  Or did he just dream it all?

_Music inspired by the Lord of the Rings_ by Bo Hansson.  This one
is pretty obscure -- I think I picked it up in the cutout bins at a
Camelot record store somewhere in the southeast.  It's an album of
synthesizer dominated instrumentals based on various parts of the
Tolkien trilogy.  I wouldn't really advise rushing right out to buy
this one, because it's appeal is pretty narrow.  I was blown away by
it as a young Tolken-o-phile, and I still listen to it from time to
time.  It's the music most evocative of Middle Earth (or my
conception of it) that I've ever run into.  (Not that "Ramble On"
isn't nice, but I just never picture Led Zep doing a gig in front of
the Cracks of Doom.)

So there it is, for what it's worth.

Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28,
Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712
barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

Date: Sun 28 Jul 85 00:35:04-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #286

>  the interface between technology/science and magic.  The only
>  novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence
>  of the two (as opposed to the existence of one through the other)
>  was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?  (I have forgotten again, even
>  though it was a fantastic book.  Any help?)  Was there ever a

(2) _Operation_Chaos_ is by Poul Anderson, and I've never heard of a
    sequel.  Pity.  He's probably written other science+magic books,
    though I can't think of any.  He should have, anyways.

(1) Jack of Shadows, and to some extent Madwand and its sequel which
    I can't remember, by Zelazny, had magic and science in some
    moderate juxtaposition;

    The Cyborg and The Sorcerers, by L. Watt-Evans (I'm 63.1% sure
    of the Watt, and 4.08% of the Evans, part of his name), had
    sorcery and science; and I seem to remember that the sorcery was
    either real or a very unscientific kind of psi.  Either way, the
    book is quite good.

    Juxtaposition, a trilogy (what else?  Save perhaps a 10-book
    trilogy) by Piers Anthony, had science and magic in closely
    parallel worlds.  I haven't the endurance to reread it and see
    if one was reduced to the other.  For that matter, the
    Incarnations of Immortality has both, though Anthony's magic is
    so mechanistic in function and invocation that it's not worth
    it.  How can Incarnations be so impersonal?

(0) There are scads of books which reduce magic to science: Lord of
    Light comes immediately to hand.  Are there any which reduce
    science to magic?

(-0.5) What is magic anyways?  Most fantasy books I've read seem to
    treat it as either an equivalent of technology (you use the
    magic hourglass by changing the color of the sand, or turning it
    upside down), or of psionics (you throw sheer will at the evil
    wizard and his spells fribble).  In my D&D-variant worlds, it's
    a personal force: you negotiate with Whoever to get your magic,
    giving fealty to demon princes or milk and rice-cakes to the
    Moons Goddess and so on, and usually getting power in return; it
    is mechanistic to the extent that these Powers behave as
    predictably as other people, and have some motives for not
    screwing too many worshippers too badly.  I believe that James
    Blish used a similar technology, if extremely different motives,
    in _Black_Easter_&_The_Day_After_Judgement_ -- Aha!  another
    science+magic book, and arguably the best of those I've
    mentioned.

    Any others?

(-1) [For the amusement of H.P. Lovecraft fans]
     [The reverse of the request, hence the negative index]
    I've found some books by Brian Lumley, science-fictionalizing
    the Cthulhu Mythos.

    **** MARGINAL SPOILER ****

    Some of the Mythos deities are real, and the characters spend a
    book or two battling shoggoths and wha tnot.  Others are -- as
    of the middle of the second book, and it were amusing if this
    turned out to be false -- personifications of natural forces:
    Azathoth, the blind idiot daemon sultan who mutters horribly at
    the center of the universe, is nuclear energy; Nyalarthotep, the
    messenger of the Elder Gods, is telepathy; and so on.  (I don't
    see why the characters are so worried about the minor gods.
    They've gotten rid of -- enslaved! -- the major ones, by turning
    them into scientific forces. What are a few shoggoths, or even
    Ithaqua, compared to Azathoth and Nyalrathotep and
    Shub-Niggurath? 8-)

    Anyways, this series is truly amusing, with an apparently
    serious mix of the space opera (super-scientists design
    super-gadgets and conquer everything; o.k., Lumley's not that
    extreme) and H.P.  Lovecraft style horror (_Necronomicon_ and
    _Pnakotic_Manuscripts_ and occultism and slimy nameless horrors
    and other anonymous atrocities.)

    Titles: _The_Burrowers_Beneath_, _The_Transition_Of_Titus_Crow_,
    and probably others.  These two are consecutive and probably the
    beginning of the series.

Blessings (generally necessary after discussing Elder Gods),
   Bard

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"...
Date: 28 Jul 85 01:55:45 GMT

dca@edison.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) writes:
>Ewoks?, be serious.  It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that
>this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy
>market.  They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute
>noises

Well, except for the basic fact that the Ewok doll didn't make it to
the market until about July (I know, I have about 6 in my office at
work) I have to agree with what is being said.

All of it, in my opinion, is beside the point. They were
exceptionally cute, and they probably were set up to some degree
towards the cute and fuzzy doll market, but I like them DESPITE all
of that. I think that they were making a point that most people seem
to have missed -- that sometimes the most dangerous things out there
simply don't LOOK dangerous. The Ewok was a great example of
something that is easy to underestimate -- they look like cute
little teddy bears, so they can't hurt anyone. This same mentality
is what gets kids and other people maimed in places like Yellowstone
every year.

I think that ROTJ overdid it -- the attackes the Ewoks made on the
imperial forces were just TOO primitive to be effective -- if the
stormtroopers fall apart that easily they never would have gotten
that far in the first place -- but the concept of the Ewok is quite
valid, and I thought that they pulled a lot of personality out of
those furry, funny looking teddy bears.

Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 28 Jul 85 00:29:59 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>because humans find them cute.  Over millions of years of
>evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait,
>because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all
>was reluctant to kill cute animals.

It was an important survival trait alright, but not because it kept
off predators (who frequently single out the young and the weak).
What it did was arouse strong caring and protective instincts in the
parents.  I don't think even a wounded animal is acknowledged to be
as dangerous as an animal whose young are threatened.  Works,
doesn't it?

> The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural
> universal.  . . .  Another for example: the fellows up in the
> Great White North who make their living clubbing baby seals
> probably don't shed any tears over the 'cute' baby seals with
> their 'cute' big eyes. I suspect the 'cute' reaction is primarily
> a fairly recent Anglo-American cultural tradition, since I've
> never seen it mentioned in any other cultural contexts. Anyone
> else out there have any ideas about this?

There are few surer ways to arouse my ire than to make remarks like
that about Canadians.  You are, I assume, referring to the harp seal
hunt in Newfoundland.  I suggest you find out what actually happens
(and NOT from Greenpeace, who paid to have a baby seal skinned alive
for a photographer: the only time it was ever done) before you draw
these conclusions.  To put it mildly, the image spread by the most
vocal people is rather one-sided.

Reactions to the softer, more rounded forms of younger animals and
birds have been studied by biologists.  The same sort of reactions
are found across species, never mind cultures.  For instance, if a
cardboard model is placed in a bird's nest, next to the real
hatchling, and it is made even more rounded (what is called
"supernormal"), the adult seems to prefer it over the real
hatchling.  And just watching the drawings comparing model to
hatchling, you had to admit the model was cuter.  Same for
supernormal models of baby rabbits, and of human babies, even
though, viewed objectively, they looked acutely hydrocephalic and in
need of immediate surgery..  (If anybody's interested, I believe at
least some of these experiments were done by Nikko Tinbergen in his
famous experiments with gulls).  So I believe it's more biological
than cultural.

And even culturally, enjoyment of cuteness can hardly be called
recent.  Look at the number of Victorian books (though I admit I'm
thinking of children's books right now) in which it appears.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1017-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #296
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 296

Today's Topics:

                Books - McKillip & Niven & Varley &
                        Footfall & Tall Tales in a Bar Stories &
                        Time Travel Stories,
                Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs),
                Music - Dick & SF in Music & Platinum Blond,
                Radio - HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
                Miscellaneous - Generation Ships &
                        Technology vs Magic & Cuteness &
                        Con Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re:  Patricia McKillip
Date: 29 Jul 85 17:16:53 GMT

Patricia A. McKillip:
        FORGOTTEN BEASTS OF ELD
        NIGHT GIFT
        Hed Trilogy:
                RIDDLE-MASTER OF HED
                HEIR OF SEA AND FIRE
                HARPIST IN THE WIND
        THROME OF THE ERRIL OF SHERRIL

                                   Evelyn C. Leeper
                                   ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 28 Jul 85 09:04:29 GMT

>Larry Niven's Warlock series 'Not Long Before the End', 'What
>   Good is a Glass Dagger' and a novel whose name escapes me.

\\The Magic Goes Away//. My copy is a trade paperback from Ace
Science Fiction. Two more stories set in the same universe are ``The
Lion in his Attic'' and ``Talisman'', both of which appear in
Niven's newest collection ``Limits''.

Bill Laubenheimer
UC-Berkeley Computer Science
ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Varley's Villians (Villians?) [mild spoiler: Ophiuchi
Subject: Hotline]
Date: 28 Jul 85 08:58:08 GMT

I would also consider \\The Ophiuchi Hotline// another important
exception to your proposed rule that Varley tends to use primarily
male ``villians''.  Regarding ``villain'' as meaning ``antagonist(s)
plus cohorts'' (which is not really the same thing), I would only
designate Boss Tweed and the Vaffas as villians. Vaffas come in
either sex, about 50-50. Tweed, although masquerading as male, is
actually somatically (and I believe genetically as well) female and
sexually neuter.

But is Tweed (or any member of his gang) really a ``villain''? Tweed
is acting quite reasonably by his own lights; it just so happens
that the things he is trying to accomplish, and the means necessary
to accomplish these ends, are drastically contrary to the laws and
prejudices of the Eight Worlds. Tweed also does a number of things
(although admittedly for his own purposes) which are quite
beneficial to Lilo. So is he really a villain? I think not.

This brings up another point regarding Varley's characters and
situations, one which I feel is quite important. In my opinion,
Varley has managed quite successfully to break away from the hoary
old space-opera tradition of the protagonist as hero in brightly
shining armor vs. antagonist as villain blacker than deepest space.
In many of his stories, including most of his best, the pattern is
more along the lines of people being brought together by some
circumstance. They meet, events occur, and lives are changed,
sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse. It's an entirely
different model, which is one reason why he is one of my current
favorites.

Bill Laubenheimer
UC-Berkeley Computer Science
ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

From: lmef!damon@topaz.arpa (Damon Scaggs)
Subject: Re: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers)
Date: 26 Jul 85 18:12:21 GMT

I felt that, over-all, this book was certainly of the same caliber
as Mote in Gods Eye (one of my all time favorite books).  However, I
felt that the ending could have been done a little better.  The
mini-rebellion against the President left a bad taste in my mouth.
I don't understand the need for it.  Also, I was left wondering what
happened to the people in Birmingham.  Last we heard, God wanted an
invitation to their party BAD.  In general, I thought they played up
the Survivalists in the beginning a lot and then did nothing with
them later in the book.  Other than these few questions (few
considering the length of the book), I felt it was well worth
reading.  There was a fair amount of suspense.  I especially liked
the difficult decisions the president had to make.

Damon Scaggs
{ihnp4,akgua}!sol1!lmef!damon

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar
Date: 25 Jul 85 14:50:37 GMT

No, James Branch Cabell didn't write a series of tales set in a bar.
You're probably thinking of Arthur C. Clarke.  Cabell wrote a series
of tales set in the fantasy land of Poictesme, later on following
the two families chronicled to Virginia.

--Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Sun 28 Jul 85 16:33:52-EDT
From: Michael Ardai <UI.MIKE@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Stories for Anthology

[I am posting this for my brother, who doesn't have access to the
net...]

    Hi everyone.

    I'm currently compiling an anthology of time travel stories for
Tor Books.  If you have any personal favorites, I'd love to hear
about them; I'm looking for any good material, preferably a little
more obscure than H.G.Wells.
  -- and don't bother to mention anything by Harlan Ellison. I've
never read a word of his that I've liked, and I'd just as soon not
deal with him.
    Thanks in advance.

P.S.: Does anyone know who wrote "Where Were You Last Pluterday?"
    I know it was posted already, but I can't remember for the life
    of me
                        -Charles Ardai
ARPANET: UI.Mike@CU20B.ARPA
Bitnet: MIAUS  @CUVMA
Usenet: ...seismo!columbia!cucca!mike
USnail:803 Watson Labs, 612 West 115th Street, New York, N.Y. 10025

------------------------------

From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Back to the Future (spoiler)
Date: 28 Jul 85 17:15:37 GMT

First, since the original Marty, who we are following, goes back to
the changed future, I assume that Doc's time machine does not care
what time-line it came from, it just translates n years forward or
back from its current time.

Given this assumption, Marty 1 goes back, changes the future, then
returns.  We can assume a divergence (or not, but I will) such that
there are now two time lines.  On the first one, they never see
Marty again, since he left that time line and returned on the other
one.  On the second one, Marty 1 returns, Marty 2 travels back.  Now
we encounter the problem.  Regardless of whatever else happened, the
two of them would travel back to approximately the same time and
place, if we carry along with the assumption that the time machine
does not leave its current time-line.  However, since we did *not*
see Marty 2 when Marty 1 arrived, it is likely that Doc 2 remembered
seeing Marty 1 (the letter, etc) and sent Marty 2 back to some
*other* time, realizing that otherwise they would encounter each
other.  (Or, rather, that he (Doc 2) would run into Marty 1, if he
is assuming that he will make the trip back on the second go-round.)
Either way, I expect that he would have set the clock for some other
date in the past.  What happens to Marty 2 at this point is
impossible to tell.  Probably, each one changes their future, and
ends up on time-line n+1.
                                           Muffy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 09:56 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: BTTF:Production Design

...a real class act, making the sets a character in the movie.  Dr.
Brown's 1955 mansion is an architectural classic, the Greene &
Greene bungalow in Pasadena.  Does anybody know which town they
redecorated?  (I would have used Watsonville, but that isn't it).

------------------------------

From: becker@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: music in SF
Date: 27 Jul 85 08:11:00 GMT

A short story called "The Preserving Machine" by, I believe, Philip
K.  Dick, concerned two men who wanted to preserve the classics of
music through what they felt was the coming fall of civilization.
They had a device that would transform a musical score into an
animal, which they then released into the nearby woods. The men
figured that the music could survive in this way for future
generations. Only problem is that the musical animals start to turn
wild...

Craig Becker
ihnp4!uiucdcs!becker

------------------------------

From: hcrvax!jims@topaz.arpa (Jim Sullivan)
Subject: Re: SF in music
Date: 24 Jul 85 01:53:07 GMT

> From: S. C. Colbath  <CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
> Can anyone tell me what group wrote/performed the song '2525'

Damn, I forget the group.  But I do have an interesting bit of
trivia about the song (Actual title: In The Year 2525).

On the day Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon (July 2[012] 1969),
that song, In The Year 2525, was the number one hit in America.

(This bit of trivia was brought to you via Trivial Pursuit, Second
Edition)

As for Music and SF, what about Tonio K ? Off the La Bomba EP there
is a track called "Mars Needs Women" (See you in the Van Allen Belt)

Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger's Series also springs to mind (don't
read it)

Random Note from a Random Mind
Jim Sullivan

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai)
Subject: SF music: Platinum Blond
Date: 28 Jul 85 04:14:18 GMT

Platinum Blond ( a Canadian pop-rock band) has a new album out
called "Alien Shores", and I read this in the newspapaer today:
      "...the second side of the album is reserved for a conceptual
      suite...which chronicles the passage of a nomadic civilization
      from one planet to another"
Lead singer/idol Mark Holmes remarked that (in the same artcle):
      "I'm not saying it's about the human race, it's just a theory
      I've been kicking around about the possible origin of our
      species"

Hmmm, this is possibly the closest to SF some of those
screaming teenage girls would get to.....

Henry Chai
Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto
{watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 28 Jul 1985 21:51:08-PDT
From: francini%argus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (This Space Available for Rent
From: or Lease)
Subject: Music & sf & HHGTTG...

Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA> writes that there were 13
HitchHikers Guide To The Galaxy episodes.  If so, they have never to
my knowledge broadcast the 13th episode here in Boston.  I have the
first 12 on tape myself, and would be very interested in knowing
exactly how many radio episodes REALLY exist.

If anyone out there has any information regarding this, please let
me know.

John Francini
DEC:    ARGUS::FRANCINI
ARPA:   Francini@argus.DEC
UUCP:   ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-argus!francini

------------------------------

From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown)
Subject: Re: Generation Ships
Date: 24 Jul 85 19:30:23 GMT

kwc@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) writes:
>    Would anyone on the net who has read some good novels about
>ships going on journeys between the stars at sub-light speeds
>please send me E-mail with the titles and authors. I have just
>finished reading Harlan Ellison
>    If anyone can take the time to send me some titles and authors
>I would really appreciate it.
>                                       Kenneth Crist

At the risk of being regarded as a Drek-peddler, David Gerrold's
"The Galactic Whirlpool" is a star trek story in which a long-adrift
colony is located by the Enterprise.  It has in effect become a
generation ship with drastic results on the inhabitants.  I will
doubtless get the better of this trade by reading your
recommendations.

P.S. Sorry- no e-mail.

------------------------------

From: wateng!clelau@topaz.arpa (Eric C.L. Lau)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 25 Jul 85 17:21:07 GMT

>From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
>While waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of
>us were discussing the interface between technology/science and
>magic.  The only novel we could come up with that really treated
>the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one
>through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?

I think Zelzany wrote another book called _The_Changeling_ about
something like this(somebody out there check this).  The setting was
a parallel universe to our own where magic functions.  It was about
how two babies got switched between the two universes by a powerful
magician.  The one from the "magical" universe grows up not quite
fitting in the "scientific" universe.  The one from the "scientific"
universe has the same problem but uses the scientific knowledge that
comes naturally to him to attempt to take over his world.
Eventually the confrontation is between the two characters and
between science and magic.  Of course it's been a while since I read
it so I can't be sure of author, title or plot.  Anybody out there
recall a story like this?

wateng!clelau

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Cuteness
Date: 27 Jul 85 11:51:22 GMT

wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>>  But the cuteness of anything, even if it does resemble a walking
>>  teddy-bear, is decidedly limited when it wakes you up, as it did
>>  Leia, with a sharp spear at a sensitive spot.
>
> While using a spear to wake someone does cut the cloying sensation
> they first give, but the audience reaction during the times that I
> watched the movie was at how cute they were with their cute
> spears.
>
> I am not ashamed of the Ewoks I just think the costume design was
> purposefully designed to be cute and it distracted me during the
> film.

Perhaps it was designed to be cute; but I can think of another
reason for it.  Just what you were saying about feeding the bears in
the national parks.  A cute menace can be more fearful than an
{plain, ugly, what-have-you} one.  MUCH so.  (Although I would not
credit George Lucas & co. with the intelligence to use such a
device.  Your first guess is probably right.)

For more information, read David Gerrold's THE TROUBLE WITH
TRIBBLES, an account of the making of teh ST episode of the same
name.

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1985  01:56 EDT
From: INGRIA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Subject: Announcing ReaderCon

        I have been asked to post this message to the net.  I am not
involved with organizing it, but I will gladly forward any messages,
questions, reactions, etc. to the organizers.

Bob
(INGRIA@MC)
                        Announcing ReaderCon
Are you:

   o a serious reader (or writer, or publisher) of imaginative
     fiction?

   o someone who sees the genre as primarily a form of
     literature, rather than a type of movie or game?

Do you:

   o like cons?
   o like the panels and readings at cons?
   o sometimes feel overwhelmed by the predominance of mediafans
     at cons?

Would you:

   o like to spend a couple of days with some like-minded company?

Then you'll:

   o love ReaderCon!!

     We are a new con, just starting to get organized.  Giving
ourselves ample time to learn, we are aiming at mid-87 for our first
show in the Boston-Cambridge area.  We are book-oriented and
non-media, and our programming, dealer's room, etc. will reflect
that orientation.  We are serious, but NOT stuffy!  We will be
having two GOHs per show (Writer and Publisher), and have already
selected our first Publisher GOH (Mark Zeising, who just recently
brought out the first edition of Gene Wolfe's new novel).  We will
soon be putting out our first flyer, with more information, prices,
etc.  If you'd like a copy, send a S.A.S.E. (#10 envelope) to:

    ReaderCon
    P.O. Box 6138
    Boston, MA 02209

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  2 Aug 85 1101-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #297
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1101-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #297
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 297

Today's Topics:

           Books - Foster & Hubbard & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                   Generating Fantasy (3 msgs),
           Films - Mad Max,
           Music - SF in Music,
           Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic &
                   Generation Ships & Aliens & 
                   Why Leave Home?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: SF in music
Date: 29 Jul 85 23:09:51 GMT

>Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger's Series also springs to mind (don't
>read it)

Why not?  The stories are fairly amusing.  (I will read anything at
least mildly entertaining rather than watch TV... not that I have a
working TV.)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 13:18 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Scientologists?

Does anyone know what Elrond the boss elf's last name was, or what
he did in his spare time?  I had this nightmare where it was Hubbard
and he was creating a legion of elves to stand on street corners
recuiting people and I'm afraid to leave my terminal...

------------------------------

From: stuart@webstr.DEC (legibility and comprehensibility are mutually
From: exclusive)
Subject: any moorcock fans out there?
Date: 29 Jul 85 03:55:50 GMT

I've just emerged from an extended tour of the works of Michael
Moorcock (the two Corum trilogies, the Elric series, and the Castle
Brass series), and I found them all quite enjoyable. The story of
the 'champion eternal' that bridges across all the various series
was one I was quite captivated by, and I especially liked the way
that while any individual series dealt with one particular
incarnation, fate would, at times (and in what seemed to be to be a
very logical manner, at all times consistent with the 'laws' of that
particular plane of the multiverse), throw a few of the incarnations
from other series into the picture.

I'd like very much to read more sf with this feature (bug? :-)) ...
can anyone think of what other authors do this, and do it well?

*** random pet peeve ***

I don't claim to know the book purchasing habits of many people, but
personally, if I'm going to read, say, Smith's Lensman series (an
example of a series where *all* volumes are in print), I like to buy
the whole thing, as opposed to buying it piece by piece. Why, then,
do bookstores rarely (in my experience) carry *all* the volumes of a
given series? It's like selling single volumes page by page!

steve
internet 'stuart%webstr.dec@decwrl'

------------------------------

From: cstvax!bobg@topaz.arpa (Bob Gray ERCC)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 2 Aug 85 17:46:41 GMT

>From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
> its called "The Time of the Hawklords" and was written
>with Michael Butterworth, C. 1976.

This was the first volume in a planned trilogy. The second volume
was published in 197{8,9} written by Moorcock on his own. It was
called something like "The Queen of delerium". I have never heard of
the third volume in the series. Does anyone out there know if it was
ever published? Nine years is a long time to wait to find out what
happens after the setting up for the sequel done in vol 2.

BTW. I haven't seen any mention of the double album of
H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds" from about 1980 mentioned
in this category.
                        Bob Gray
                        ERCC.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?
Date: 27 Jul 85 17:08:12 GMT

>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.

No books, but I know of a film that a D&D fan I know assures me
could have been written only in this way.  It was a made for TV film
that ran only once as far as I know.  It is called THE ARCHER.  It
had a long complex stringlike plot.  I kind of enjoyed it, but I
never have found anyone else who thought much of it.  One of the
major problems is that it was not constructed like a story should be
with a beginning, a middle, and an end.  It was more like just a
string of fantasy incidents.  It did have a final confrontation, but
not a very satisfying one.  Till now the only way to generate a book
has been to sit at a keyboard and think and plan, at least in my
opinion.  Philip K. Dick supposedly decided MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE's
plot twists with the I Ching.  I never cared for the novel, though
others seem to like it.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 08:38 PDT
From: piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?

Of course, the 'DragonLance' books were based on a D&D campaign.
The afterword of 'Liavek' suggests that Liavek, SKZB'z Dragaera,
Patricia Wrede's Lyra, and one other that slips my mind were all
part of one massive multi-universe campaign.  Given the quality of
these books, I would say that fantasy campaigns are quite useable as
background for fantastic fiction.

Kurt

------------------------------

From: aluxz!cws@topaz.arpa (SPIVAK)
Subject: Re: a way to generate fantasy
Date: 28 Jul 85 03:05:45 GMT

brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  writes:
>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.  ...

Aside from those examples that have already have been mentioned, I
seem to remember bits and pieces here and there in many recent
fantasy novels which show that their authors are steeped in D&D
conventions.  At first I kind of liked it (it's certainly fun to
look for it): now, it strikes me as yet another overworked and
sterile construct.  I know what brendan means, but situations which
must have been exciting in the game context somehow show up as
rather flat on paper.  My guess is that the highly structured set of
rules which makes for a good game makes for an overly predictable
story.  I wish they'd stop.

                                   Carolyn Spivak

------------------------------

From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN)
Subject: "Mad Max 3" homage to "Dune"? [slight spoiler]
Date: 29 Jul 85 22:07:01 GMT

Look at the very last shot in "Mad Max 3", of Max climbing up the
sand dune into the sunset.  Doesn't he look a whole lot like a
Fremen?  Gag me with a wombat, but I'd swear that's a Maker hook
he's carrying....

Mike Rubin      {ihnp4, rest of AT&T}!mtuxn!newtech!rubin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 13:12 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Music is SF...

Don't forget those hard rocking scientists, the Hong Kong Cavaliers!

We really need another Buckaroo Banzai movie before I go
*completely* insane.

------------------------------

From: luke!itkin@topaz.arpa (Steven List)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 29 Jul 85 00:53:19 GMT

I missed the original question, but have seen it quoted.  The
question seems to be about stories combining magic and technology.
At the hightech end are Keith Laumer's Lafayette O'Leary books.
Slightly lower tech, but perhaps better reading are Joel Rosenberg's
Guardians of the Flame books.  These also include alternate
universes, D&D, and a lot of fun.

Taken to a slight tangent are Jack L. Chalker's Soul Rider books.
The magic turns out not to be real magic, but they don't know it!

Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA
{cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Generation Ship List
Date: 29 Jul 85 14:45:52 GMT

Here is the list of books about Generation ships I have gathered
from the titles people have sent me. Thank you every one who
responded to my request.  Orphans of the Sky received the most
recommendations with twelve.

Title                                       Author

Starship (also called Nonstop)         Brian Aldiss
Tau Zero                               Poul Anderson
Across a Sea of Sun                    Greg Bender
Exiled from Earth                      Ben Bova
Flight of Exiles                       Ben Bova
End of Exile                           Ben Bova
Phoenix Without Ashes                  Edward Bryant & Harlan Ellison
The Ballad of Beta-2                   Samuel Delaney
Flight of the Dragonfly                Robert Forward
The Galactic Whirlpool                 David Gerrold
Worlds                                 Joe Haldeman
Worlds Apart                           Joe Haldeman
Captive Universe                       Harry Harrison
Orphans of the Sky                     Robert Heinlein
Universe                               Robert Heinlein
Voyage from Yesteryear                 James Hogan
Mayflies                               Kevin O'Donnell, Jr.
Rite of Passage                        Alexis Panshin
Marathon                               D. Alexander Smith
A Momentary Taste of Being             James Triptree, Jr.
Starburst                              Jack Williamson
Dragon's Egg
Invaders
The Queen of Air and Darkness
The Whorthing Chronicle
                                        Kenneth Crist
                                        kwc@cvl
                                        Computer Vision Lab
                                        University of Maryland

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1985 14:25:33-EDT (Sunday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Why would 'they' come to Earth

I saw the following article on why Aliens would want to visit Earth,
so I figured I would contribute it to the discussion.

           THE ALIENS ARE COMING, THE ALIENS ARE COMING!
                            -Dave Barry

I don't want to alarm anybody, but there is an excellent chance that
the Earth will be destroyed in the next several days.  Congress is
thinking about eliminating a federal program under which scientists
broadcast signals to alien beings.  This would be a large mistake.
Alien beings have nuclear blaster death cannons.  You cannot cut off
their federal programs as if they were merely poor people.

I realize some of you may not believe that alien beings exist.  But
how else can you explain the many unexplained phenomena that people
are always sighting, such as lightning and flying saucers?  Oh, I
know the authorities claim these sightings are actually caused by
"weather balloons," but that is a bucket of manure if I ever heard
one.  (That's just a figure of speech, of course.  I realize manure
is silent.)

Answer this question honestly: Have you, or has any member of your
immediate family, ever seen a weather balloon? Of course not.
Nobody has.  Yet if these "authorities" were telling the truth, the
skies over America would be dark with weather balloons.  Commercial
aviation would be impossible.  Nevertheless, the authorities trot
out this tired old explanation, or an even stupider one, every time
a flying saucer is sighted.

Wake up, America!  There are no weather balloons!  Those are alien
beings!  They are all around us!  I'm sure most of you have seen the
movie "E.T.", the story of an alien who almost dies when he falls
into the clutches of the American medical establishment but is saved
by pre-adolescent boys.  Everybody believes the alien is a fake, a
triumph of special effects.  But watch the movie closely next time.
The alien is real.  The boys are fakes.  Real pre-adolescent boys
would have beaten the alien to death with rocks.

Yes, aliens exist and high government officials know they exist, but
they've been keeping this knowledge top secret.  Here is the Untold
Story:

Years ago, when the alien-broadcast program began, government
scientists decided to broadcast a message that would be simple yet
convey a sense of love, universal peace and brotherhood: "Have a
Nice Day."  They broadcast this message over and over, day after
day, year after year, until one day they got an answer:

Dear Earth Persons:

OK.  We are having a nice day.  We also have a number of extremely
sophisticated weapons, and unless you start broadcasting something
more interesting, we will reduce your planet to a very warm object
the size of a child's bowling ball.
                                                        Regards,
                                                        The Aliens

So the scientists, desperate for something that would interest the
aliens, broadcast an episode of "I Love Lucy", and the aliens loved
it.  They demanded more, and soon they were getting all three major
networks, and the Earth was saved.  There is only one problem: THE
ALIENS HAVE TERRIBLE TASTE.  They love game shows, soap operas,
Howard Cosell and "Dallas."  Whenever a network tries to take one of
these shows off the air, the aliens threaten to vaporize the planet.

This is why you and all your friends think television is so awful.
It isn't designed to please you --it's designed to please creatures
from another galaxy.  You know the Wisk commercial, the one with
ring around the collar, the one so spectacularly stupid that it
makes you wonder why anybody would dream of buying the product?
Well, the aliens love that commercial.  We all owe a great debt of
gratitude to the people who make Wisk.  They have not sold a single
bottle of Wisk in 14 years, but they have saved the Earth.

Very few people know any of this.  Needless to say, Congress has no
idea what is going on.  Most legislators are incapable of eating
breakfast without the help of several aides, so we can hardly expect
them to understand a serious threat from outer space.  But if they
go ahead with their plan to cancel the alien-broadcast program and
the aliens miss the next episode of "General Hospital," What do you
think will happen?  Think about it.  And have a nice day.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 29 Jul 85 09:58:31-PDT
From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Why Leave Home At All?

        The title of Jon Pugh's message "Why Leave Home At All" is
exactly the question I throw back into the ring.  The tone of his
message is one I have heard before (and may once have believed
myself) but one which I find increasingly astonishing and a bit
annoying.
        His premise is best summarized in his closing paragraph:

> So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt.  If
> Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars.  There is
> nowhere else to go.  It may be viewed as running from one problem
> into another, but it is the only choice, aside from racial
> suicide.  Does anyone want to be a dinosaur?

        Petty ball of dirt?  Please read Lewis Thomas's "Lives of
the Cell" for an outlook which might dilute those sentiments.  The
view that we must cut our losses, count the Earth as a "throw-away",
and get off planet as soon as possible to insure our racial survival
is an attitude that I would not want to see propagated into space
had I the power to stop it.

        If we can't make it work on this petty ball of dirt, folks,
it's not going to be any easier on another dirt clod around some
other star or in some RingWorld.

        When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate
all the people we already have (why talk about racial survival if
the ones alive right now are not counted priceless?) and can
establish a homeostasis on this ball of dirt so that it is a stable
place -- then, and only then would I say we had earned the right to
leave.
                                                Ron Cain
                                                cain@sri-ai

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1144-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #298
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 298

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anderson & Moorcock & Myers &
                       Tall Tales in a Bar Stories (3 msgs) &
                       Generating Fantasy,
               Films - Sexism & Back to the Future &
                       The Black Cauldron,
               Music - Music and SF (5 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - 1985 vs 1955

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shark!terrys@topaz.arpa (Terry Sullins)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)(Operation Chaos)
Date: 29 Jul 85 19:54:24 GMT

>> OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?  (I have forgotten again, even though it
>> was a fantastic book.  Any help?)
> Drat, I can't remember either!  I think it is either John Brunner
> or Gordon Dixon ...

Operation Chaos by Poul Anderson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 19:29:18 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind

The connection between Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind has been
mentioned quite often in the last few weeks, up to <whoeveritwas>
who commented that Moorcock had written a book about the band
entitled _Time of the Hawklords_.

        I do believe that Moorcock actually "created" the band in
his books about Jerry Cornelius, the elusive, needlegun-toting
anti-hero who is *** SLIGHT SPOILER *** actually a punk kid from
London.  In _The Condition of Muzak_, at any rate, and perhaps even
in _The English Assassin_, Jerry is a member of the bank Hawkwind.
So far as I know, the *real* band got their inspiration from this.

        Anybody know for sure?
                                Will Duquette

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 19:38:11 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: RE: SF and MUSIC

This is really fantasy and music, but what the heck.  John Myers
Myers (author of _Silverlock_, a true gem of a book) has also
written a novel entitled _The Harp and the Blade_, which I believe
is just out in mass market form.  The novel concerns a Bard, who's
name I forget, and is actually a fairly straightforward tale set in
a strife-torn medieval Europe.  The tie in with music is that some
of the songs the Bard has written are contained in the book.  No
music, just lyrics, but they're plenty much fun.  After reading one
of the Bard's tirades, one understands why people didn't like to get
Bard's mad at them....
                                        Will Duquette

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1985 11:39:48-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Tall Tales in a Bar Stories...

A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar"
subgenre.  I assume this is sub- to SF, but I have trouble
characterizing the subgenre.  Would anyone care to describe their
idea of what a "bar" tale is?  Perhaps a few more references to
authors would help: Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already
been mentioned.  Is this strictly a type of short story?

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar
Date: 29 Jul 85 07:25:33 GMT

barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) writes:
>No, James Branch Cabell didn't write a series of tales set in a
>bar.  You're probably thinking of Arthur C. Clarke.

Nope, I am well aware of the _White_Hart_ and am sure there was a
precursor in a SFnal or fantasy vein.  If not Cabell, then someone
else.  But who??

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: sun!jsc@topaz.arpa (James Carrington)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar
Date: 29 Jul 85 17:21:15 GMT

Spider Robinson has written several short stories set in "Callahan's
Crosstime Saloon" (the title of one of the anthologys). They are not
precursors to Clarke, however -- they're pretty recent.

James Carrington                        SUN Microsystems
Associate Engineer                      2550 Garcia Ave. MS1-40
Workstation Division                    Mountain View CA 94043
Networking Department                   415-960-7438

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?
Date: 29 Jul 85 14:52:03 GMT

>From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.

Steven Brust can correct me if I'm wrong, but from the afterword to
Liavek (edited by Emma Bull and Will Shetterley), it seems apparent
that many books coming from Brust's circle of writers are
derived/influenced/whatever by role-playing campaigns those people
played.

In particular, it is suggested that the worlds of Liavek, the Vlad
Taltos books (Jhereg and Yendi, by Brust), Cats Have No Lord (by
Shetterley), and Shadow Magic (by Patricia Wrede) were all settings
for these fantasy campaigns.  Some of the characters in such books
were role-played by members of this group, although most book
characters are naturally authorial creations.

Also, I suspect that it's hard to set the order of cause and effect
here.  The writers may well have created their worlds already and
were in the process of writing stories in those worlds when the
role-playing began.  As a GM, it would be much easier (and maybe
more interesting) to set a campaign in a world that was already on
your mind than to create one from whole cloth.  However, I'm sure
that the game influenced the writing (and vice versa).

Comment, SKZB?  Have I misinterpreted the situation?

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Sexism in movies and SF westerns
Date: 29 Jul 85 20:56:26 GMT

> movie in the not to[o] distant past about a guy on a motorcycle
> who somehow got sent back to the Wild West?

It was TIMERIDER.

> This lack of strong, non-ster[e]otypical female characters is not
> just Spielberg's disease.  Everything that I have said about
> sexism may also be applied to racism and nationalism.  [Mentions
> of OUTLAND, ALIEN, 2010.]  I can only think of one black in a
> semi-lead role and that was in Ice Pirates.  Minority leads who
> are leads for reasons other than their sex and the opportunity for
> the white male lead to show off are rare and devoutly to be
> desired.  Many lead roles in science fiction movies could be
> played by anyone regardless race or sex.

I just heard an interview with George Romero in which he was asked
about his casting of blacks and non-WASPish types (along with
females) in major roles in his films.  Certainly NIGHT OF THE LIVING
DEAD had a strong black character (whose role had nothing to do with
his blackness--in fact the part was written before the actor was
even chosen).  Also DAWN OF THE DEAD.  Also presumably DAY OF THE
DEAD (which I haven't seen yet).  The characters in MARTIN are
white, but not your standard WASPs.  KNIGHTRIDERS had a fairly
strong black character (as well as a gay and a woman--that's three
different characters, in case that's not clear).  HUNGRY WIVES had
mostly female characters, but I can't remember enough of the
characterization.  The casting in CREEPSHOW was dictated mostly by
people other than Romero.

Another example: Gregory Hines played a strong character (who wasn't
written as "black") in THE WOLFEN.  I suspect there are other
lesser-known film-makers who don't worry about having "Hollywood
types" in the lead roles of their films.  (Unfortunately, my mind
draws a blank right now.)  Certainly a studio that spends $20
million will want to "play it safe" to make sure they make it all
back.  But right now, they're probably playing it too safe.  Partly
the problem is Hollywood's feeling that there must be a love
interest in every film (something that the director character in the
1933 KING KONG complained about!)  and, with few exceptions, they
won't risk an inter-racial love story.  (When they do, *it's* the
plot!)  They could easily put someone like Harold Rollins in just
about any "leading-man" role (he's certainly as sexy as Mel
Gibson!), but they don't dare show him in a love interest with a
white woman, and they don't want an "all-black" cast.  So he's
type-cast as a "black man".  Oh well, maybe someday Hollywood will
learn.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: morris@Shasta.ARPA
Subject: Re: Back to the Future (spoiler)
Date: 29 Jul 85 20:54:03 GMT

I've got it!  Marty 2 goes back to some other time.  But he won't
have the plutonium to get back to '85, so he's stuck in the past.
The alternative is that he *doesn't* go back in time at all, he goes
forward.  Why would Doc want to go back in time, since he knew that
his '55 self sees Marty anyway?  No, Doc would be planning to go to
the future, so Marty 2 never goes back in time

Does anyone really care about this?

        Kathy Morris
        (.. ucbvax!Glacier!diablo!morris,
            decvax!decwrl!Glacier!diablo!morris
            morris@diablo.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue Jul 30 10:29:39 1985
From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson)
Subject: re: BLACK CAULDRON review

A couple of minor errors appeared in the review.  Lloyd Alexander's
"Prydain Cycle" consists of five books, not four: THE BOOK OF THREE,
THE BLACK CAULDRON, THE CASTLE OF LLYR, TARAN WANDERER, and THE HIGH
KING (the latter won the Newberry Award for best children's book in
whatever year it appeared).  The film "The Black Cauldron" has never
purported to be based on all five books, but only the first two.
While I thought the Horned King looked delightfully nasty, I was
rather disappointed because (if I remember right from the books) the
Horned King was merely an ambitious evil king who wore a deer skull
with antlers, hence his name.

------------------------------

From: simpson@lll-crg.ARPA (Rea Simpson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 29 Jul 85 05:12:26 GMT

jeand@ihlpg.UUCP (AMBAR) writes:
>How about the song with the refrain
>
>       ...A lesson to be learned
>       Traveling twice the speed of sound
>       It's easy to get burned.
>
>Or has this already been mentioned?  (I'm not sure that I would
>recognize the title.)

This is from a Crosby, Stills and Nash song.  I don't know the title
but it's on the CSN (I think this is the name) album.

Rea Simpson
Lawrence Livermore Labs L-306
P.O. Box 808
Livermore, CA  94550
(415) 423-0910
{dual, gymble, sun, mordor}!lll-crg!simpson
simpson@lll-crg.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 85 09:42:00 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Re: Music 'n SF
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

>[Brian May] is however a big fan of SF (as is Roger Taylor - Queens
>drummer) as witnessed on the "News of the World" cover and Roger
>Taylors "Fun in Space" album (and cover).

Of course!  I have only a marginal liking for Queen, but I found
"Fun In Space" a great album.  Unfortunately, I haven't heard it in
years, so I can only remember the title song as having an SF theme.

Also: Wilson & Shea's "Illuminatus!" trilogy had rather a lot of
(rock) music in it -- the climax takes place at an enormous rock
festival on the shores of Lake Totenkopf in Ingolstadt, Bavaria,
where the hypnotic sounds emitted by one of the bands (I forget
which -- at the start of the third book there's a *three-page*
listing of all the bands attending) will raise battalions of dead
Nazi soldiers from the bottom of the lake.  Incidentally, I
recommend very highly the three-page listing to any group (esp.
neo-sixties) searching for a name.  The list had me rolling on the
floor, laughing my @$$ off...
                                        --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

From: ptsfa!kmo@topaz.arpa (ken olsen)
Subject: Music and SF.
Date: 29 Jul 85 20:26:28 GMT

There is an album from about '78 or '79 by Patrick Wayne et. al.
called "The War of the Worlds".  It's much like Wakeman's "Journey
to the Centre of the Earth", with narration and music interspersed.
It's a double album and is quite good.

{amd70,cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,ihnp4,ucbvax,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!kmo

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 85 08:18:47 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: SF in music....
From: GarrettK.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA

From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA(Jeff Rogers)
>Another excellent album ... "Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of 'The
>War of the Worlds.'"

 I first heard this at college.  The planetarium put on a laser
light show on Halloween using this album.  I really enjoyed "Forever
Autumn" which is on the album and is more of a love song than a
sf-song.  I acquired the album a few years later.  I recall seeing
it around in some of the stores Dallas, but I think in one that
specializes in old records.  It is a great album and worth the
effort of tracking down.

The new Supertramp album "Brother Where You Bound" has some sf
overtones as well.  The title cut starts out with a lecture from
O'Brian to Winston Smith on the way things are and some of the other
songs flow along the same idea.  By the way, does anyone know where
they got the recording of O'Brian and Winston?  Was there a movie
based on 1984? The conversation sounds old(or was made to sound that
way), but the album doesn't list credit for it.

Kathie Garrett
(GarrettK.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: crystal!brewster@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music
Date: 30 Jul 85 16:12:23 GMT

> How about the song with the refrain
>
>       ...A lesson to be learned
>       Traveling twice the speed of sound
>       It's easy to get burned.

The Concorde DOES travel at twice the speed of sound at upper
altitudes.  I always thought that was what CSN were referring to,
since much of the song is about leaving someone at an airport.  Why
is that Science FICTION?

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" - 1985 vs 1955
Date: 30 Jul 85 04:00:24 GMT

ofut@gitpyr.UUCP (Jeff Offutt) writes:
>> What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from
>> 1955?
>One of the most surprising thing would be the continuation of the
>Cold War.  Quite a chilling thought, eh?

Something that is briefly referred to in the movie.

>To a science fiction fan, the lack of meaningful space exploration
>would be disapointing.  To others, the space exploration we have
>done would be amazing.

One thing that's evident about fiction about space exploration is
that authors have almost always overestimated how much energy would
be available.  No one appreciated, until fairly recently, that a)
fission is a pain and that b) fusion is VERY difficult.  Nobody
guessed how much mileage we would (literally) get from gravity
except Clarke (_2001_, for instance).

I think a BIG suprise would be how weird the solar system has turned
out to be.  Nobody expected Io!

>As far as the electronics go, I think the average person would
>expect something along those lines -- though perhaps not quite what
>we do have.

In many respects, yes.  The ubiquity of calculators and computers
would be suprising, though; people were leaning towards a wired
world, with big central computers.

One thing that would be very suprising: the fact that technology has
acquired a definite proletarian tinge.  Think of wood vs. plastic,
organic foods, cotton vs. polyester....

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1401-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #299
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 299

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & Daley & Feist (2 msgs) &
                      Tepper & Bar Stories (2 msgs) &
                      Generating Fantasy & Request for Reveiws,
              Films - Back to the Future,
              Music - SF and Music (2 msgs),
              Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic &
                      Ewoks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 13:08 EDT
From: Jonathan Ostrowsky <jo@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Subject: HHGttG scripts on the way

Publishers Weekly reports that Harmony Books is going to publish
Douglas Adams's original scripts from the BBC's radio broadcasts of
the HHGttG.  The book will include a new introduction by Adams.  It
will be published in December, and sell for $9.95.

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Book Review:The Starfollowers of Coramonde
Date: 30 Jul 85 21:54:35 GMT

Excellent reading recommended to those readers of fantasy who like a
smooth novel opposed to the Lieber/de Camp hack and slash humor
stories.

This book is the sequel to The Doomfarers of Coramonde which I
reviewed earlier this summer.  It was nice to find that the second
effort by Daley was better than his first, which was good too.

This book has the stuff that every writer could turn green over in
jealousy.  Daley has cleverly incorporated major ingredient themes
of fantasy into his on world/dimension.  We have:

        1) Every type of hero, well described with a
           characterization that is easily assimilated

        2) Artifacts: which include a sword like Stormbringer,
           a staff, much like Donaldson's Staff of Law (and
           suspiciously arising from the "Lifetree"), items that
           call on the user's lifeforce (like the staff in the
           Dilvish the Damned novel), and more if you look.

        3) We've got the geography (map not included though).

        4) Wars between demons & deities with malign sorcerers
           battling wizards on the "right" side (sorry, no pun
           intended).

        5) There are a few enhancements to fantasy here too.
           I define a fantasy "enhancement" as a writer's
           contribution to a topic of fantasy which does not
           contradict previous writer's and adds a new facet of
           approach and viewpoint to the subject in question.

        6) Armies and battles galore.

That's all I'm going to say; the book is very worthwhile but you've
got to trudge through it's predecessor first.

I have also just finished the Black Company by Glen Cook, and since
I've missed the previous discussion I won't be redundant and review
it, but, I will recommend it- it is very enjoyable reading.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? ("Magician"-slight spoiler)
Date: 31 Jul 85 01:58:48 GMT

"Magician" by Raymond Feist is taken from his game world Midkemia.
All 600+ pages of it, with sequels to come.  The writing is pretty
good and the action well paced, though unoriginal.

The book is dedicated to, among others, "the Friday Nighters" whom I
assume to be his players; among these is one David Brin (yup, THAT
David Brin; the jacket blurb says the author lives in San Diego).
Brin also makes a cameo appearance as a horse trader.

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? ("Magician"-slight spoiler)
Date: 31 Jul 85 18:32:31 GMT

Raymod E. Feist was in fact an frp game designer in fact.

I read magician (must have been 5-6 years ago) in hardcover and I've
been unable to find it in paperback, anybody know anything about
this?

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: Mavin Manyshaped
Date: 30 Jul 85 21:39:46 GMT

throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
> I just bought and read the second of the Mavin Manyshaped novels.
> Recommended.  Sherri Tepper has a way of phrasing moral problems
> that is elegant and pleasing.  In the first book, it was
> explaining rape to a young boy.  In this one, it is an exposition
> of the victim/perpetrator rights problem.  All of this, and a
> "hard fantasy" adventure story too.

I do not recommend the second book to Tepper's saga of Mavin
Manyshaped.  While the True Game Series is excellent- and the first
book interesting since it provides the story behind the legend we
only encounter briefly in her series the second book is filled with
baby talk type stuff, which I found annoying.  Also, the plot is
evident from the beginning of the book and is not terribly exciting,
whereas in the first Mavin Manyshaped novel Tepper still gave us
some insight into the cunning of a shapeshifter.

> Has anybody read "The Revenants"?  Is it as worthwhile as the True
> Game series?

While it doesn't really compare with the true game series it is
still a worthwhile reading.  It is one of those macabre type books
that is intentionally confusing and mind warping as it deals heavily
with Deities and artifacts.  I recommend it for Tepper fans.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte
ps- sorry about my Silverberg/Rosenberg mix up everybody...

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (Cobb)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Stories...
Date: 31 Jul 85 17:29:02 GMT

> From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
> A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar"
> subgenre.  ...Perhaps a few more references to authors would help:
> Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already been mentioned...

Another author that comes to mind is Larry Niven.  He has a whole
series of short stories that take place in a bar, informally known
as the "Draco Tavern" series.  They tend to revolve around a
non-human race known as the chirpsithra, who say things that most
sentient races find hard to believe... and which just might be true.
Amusing stories.  You can find them in two books, "Convergent
Series" and "Limits."

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

From: pedsgd!bobh@topaz.arpa (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Stories...
Date: 31 Jul 85 14:44:27 GMT

marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar"
>subgenre.  I assume this is sub- to SF, but I have trouble
>characterizing the subgenre.  Would anyone care to describe their
>idea of what a "bar" tale is?  Perhaps a few more references to
>authors would help: Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already
>been mentioned.  Is this strictly a type of short story?

I am not sure if they fall into the category, but Spider Robinson
has done stories in "Callahan's Saloon" for years.  Collections are
"Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" and "Time Travelers Pay Cash".

Bob Halloran
Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG
UUCP: {ihnp4, decvax, ucbvax}!vax135!petsd!pedsgd!bobh
USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724
DDD: (201) 758-7000

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?
Date: 30 Jul 85 10:39:22 GMT

>From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.  What I mean by this is that the
>characters (players) keep 'journals' which are then compiled into
>(semi?)coherent form and published as a novel/short story.  I have
>often thought that some of the 'adventures' I have had would make
>pretty good reading (but alas, I am no writer).

I am not sure whether this counts but Joel Rosenberg has been doing
a series called "Guardians of the Flame" which has three books out
and more to come.  It isn't strictly an account of a game they
played but more a case of the translation of the players into the
game.  Seems disjoint and strange enough that it just might be an
actual game they're playing.  Takes him that long to get a new one
out, too...

Anyway, I wonder about how good a D&D game COULD be as a story,
considering that they tend to look like bad comic-books when
recorded.  (Yes, I do play frp games, and yes, I do record them in
writing, and BOY are they lousy as literature)

Hutch

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Request for reviews
Date: 31 Jul 85 21:04:00 GMT

Has anyone read any of the following?  TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert
Silverberg; R. A. MacAvoy's THE BOOK OF KELLS; LIAVEK, edited by
Will Slatterly and somebody else; THE CONTINENT OF LIES by William
(?) Morrow.  Comments would be appreciated.  Short reviews would be
*greatly* appreciated.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: BTTF:Production Design
Date: 30 Jul 85 22:10:37 GMT

Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>Does anybody know which town they redecorated?

I hate to tell you this, but the downtown area in BACK TO THE FUTURE
looked a lot like the generic downtown in the Universal studios lot.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 09:08 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: sf music, music in sf, and Operation Chaos author

>        Robinson: Many of his "crosstime saloon" stories use music -
>                "Wolfstroker" and the one about Bobbi Joy (is this
>        Also, I remember a couple of very good short stories about
>music/art, but don't remember who wrote them: a wonderful story
>about a woman who teaches a forest to play classical music (what is
>this? I NEED to know!), and an interesting one in analog a year or

Robinson didn't write "Wolfstroker". Alan Dean Foster did. Foster
also wrote the story about the woman who taught the trees to play
classical music. I don't remember the title but both stories are in
his short story collection called "With Friends Like These..." and
are highly recommened!

>My favorite science fiction album is a two-disc version of H.G.
>Wells' War of the Worlds (titled War of the Worlds) with Richard
>Burton doing narration.  Justin Hayward and David Essex are among
>the artists.  There is a riveting piece titled Thunderchild and
>another called The Spirit of Man.  The Martian's theme is
>appropriatly menacing.  While I don't want to spoil the story I
>will say that playing the album is a Halloween tradition and is the
>focus of our "Find A Three-Day Weekend for August" movement.

I was just about to post a recommendation of this album when I ran
across this posting. Let me just add that this is one of my five
favorite albums - I never tire of listening to it! If you like this,
there's also an excellent chance you'll like Mike Oldfield (Mike is
best knows as the author of Tubular Bells, part of which was used as
the theme to the movie The Exorcist - his music isn't necessarily SF
related, but he's my favorite composer and I thought this was an
excellent opportunity to put in a plug for him). Oh yes, War of the
Worlds was recently re-released so you should be able to find a copy
somewhere (I have two - kept in seperate locations in case of
disaster).

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner)
Subject: Re: SF in music
Date: 31 Jul 85 00:55:39 GMT

I don't remember if anyone has mentioned these songs in this raging
discussion or not (the memory is the first thing to go...I think...I
really can't recall...), but how about:

Kashmir  -- Led Zep  ("I am a traveller of both time and space...")
Starship Trooper -- Yes
Some of the songs on "A" (Jethro Tull)
I, Robot -- Alan Parsons (well, come on, the *title* is sf, after
  all! (-: )

I think someone already mentioned "Time" by ELO; and I was happy to
see that I wasn't the only one to have bought the (excellent) Planet
P album!  I was beginning to think I was!

Roy Turner
School of Information and Computer Science
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt

------------------------------

From: wateng!clelau@topaz.arpa (Eric C.L. Lau)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 30 Jul 85 02:01:57 GMT

>>  the interface between technology/science and magic.  The only
>> novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence
>> of the two, was OPERATION CHAOS by ????
>>  Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar
>> vein.  ... I'm thinking more of a situation where the two
>> normally coexist.)
>Can anyone tell us about THE PRACTICE EFFECT by David Brin?  It
>sounds as if it might fit the description, but i haven't read it
>yet.

_The_Practice_Effect is more about a world where magic is
scientifically possible than one where magic and science co-exist.
Any more than that would reveal the plot of the story, sorry.  Even
though it doesn't fit your description it's a good book anyway.

                                 Eric Lau

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 85 00:46:04 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Ewoks and NutraSweet

My main reason for despising the Ewoks with every fiber of my being
is that by rights, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN WOOKIES!  George Lucas had
originally planned that the moon (Endor? memory fails) be the native
planet of the Wookies.  This was even stated in that TV Christmas
special they did in '78 or '79.

So why the change?  Why ditch the Wookies?  The same reason that the
Ewoks were made abominably cute: marketing.  Lucas & co. felt that
the Wookies (because of Chewbacca) had an image of being a
civilized, spacefareing, technological people.  They thought the
Masses would object to being told that Chewie was an exception, that
most Wookies were primative tribals.  So, they changed them.  The
first design of the Ewoks was a very tall, thin, hairy critter.
Because this looked too much like a Wookie, they made them very
short, and eventually arrived at the saccharine teddy-bear (some of
the preliminary drawings looked a lot like the elfish creatures from
the Dark Crystal).

Lucas said that they also had been a little worried about Vader.
They thought people would object to there being anything Human under
the mask at all (thank The Force it didn't go that far!)

Another interesting point... Remember the orthinoper that the Ewoks
used against the Imperials?  It was supposed to be a bird, but the
Dreaded Deadline prevented them from getting a good looking
critter... um...off the ground, so they made it mechanical.

My source for all this is one of those "Making of..." TV shows.
Lots of interviews with Lucas and the people at ILM. (I think it was
"Making of the Star Wars Trilogy," but it may have been "Making of
Return of the Jedi").
                                        ---Jamie
                                 (jwz@cmu-cs-spice)
P.S.: Anyone know when/if the next movie is going to be
released/begun?  The Original Plan called for nine, but I haven't
heard anything about SW#4 (episode 1) except that if released at
all, it will deal with the Clone Wars.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1430-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #300
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 300

Today's Topics:

               Books - Ellison & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                       Footfall,
               Miscellaneous - Generation Ships & Cuteness &
                       Star Wars Cartoons & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: MEDEA:  HARLAN'S WORLD, edited by Harlan Ellison, 1985
Date: 31 Jul 85 21:20:55 GMT

     This is something that's been tried before: several SF writers
writing stories set in the same world.  Ellison mentions Fletcher
Platt's THE PETRIFIED PLANET, and A WORLD NAMED CLEOPATRA, edited by
Roger Elwood; the success of the THIEVE'S WORLD books has spawned
other such fantasy anthologies.

     It's been done before, but it's done well here.  Hal Clement,
Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, and Fredrick Pohl wrote some basic
specifications, Kelly Freas painted a pretty picture (enclosed in
the Bantam/Spectrum trade paperback; and used as the dust jacket of
the hard cover); Thomas Disch, Frank Herbert, Robert Silverberg, and
Theodore Sturgeon brainstormed other possibilities, under Ellison's
loose moderation, to an enthusiastic UCLA extension seminar.  Then
the nine writers above, plus Jack Williamson and Kate Wilhelm, write
eleven stories of the planet.

     So Medea has four suns and a superjovian to heat it, East and
West poles, foxes that cast off pairs of legs to give birth,
sentient balloons, and a patchwork of ecological niches.  Similarly,
MEDEA has eleven different stories.  Some are about the "fuxes",
some about the "balloons", some about the weather.  Some are about
the humans on Medea (and Earth).  And some are first and foremost
about ideas.

     Such an eclectic collection has at least one story you won't be
too fond of, but it'll be a different story for different readers.
This much variety also means you're likely to find at least one
story you'll like, and probably one you'll like quite a bit.  Will
it be Niven's "Flare Time", when both the Medean ecology and the
human settlement are changed by life-as-they-don't-usually-know it?
Or maybe Theodore Sturgeon's tale (one of the last before he died,
dammit) "Why Dolphin's Don't Bite", of what it takes for one culture
to accept another.  Frank Herbert has a story of Ship, with his
typical "I know you know I think you feel I'm lying" games; but
"Songs of a Sentient Flute" is very much a Medea tale.

     These stories aren't parts of a single tale, they're not
necessarily set in chronological order, and they're not all
externally consistent.  What they are is good stories by good
writers.  Themes and tricks aside, isn't that what it's all about?

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: any moorcock fans out there?
Date: 30 Jul 85 14:19:31 GMT

The concept of the Eternal Champion shows up in a lot of unusual
places.  Moorcock almost certainly plucked his from Edgar Rice
Burroughs' John Carter of Mars series.  (Is anyone surprised?  Close
to the start of the first John Carter book, Carter searches his
memory and can remember taking part in wars 200 years earlier; he
cannot, however, remember being born, nor going for any length of
time when he was not fighting some war.  He had the impression that
he had fought in "some very strange places".)  Moorcock's first
published writing was a trilogy of Martian stories that are HIGHLY
reminiscent of the John Carter series.

Other Eternal Champion stuff: Adrienne Martine-Barnes wrote a so-so
novel entitled "The Dragon Rises" in which the Dragon was clearly a
duplicate of the Eternal Champion.  The gist of the story is that
there are a few souls (known by animal names) who are constantly
summoned from another "plane" to earth in order to buy off some bad
karma those souls picked up somehow.  The Dragon is the war-like one
who must eventually find peace...although it's not as bad as that
makes it sound.

I'm just now reading The Summer Tree, an unremarkable book by Guy
Gavriel Kay (for University of Toronto students out there, you might
be pleased that the protagonists are five U. of T. students).  Just
a chapter ago, the author suggested that they would eventually meet
the Eternal Champion so maybe it will turn out to be a little
interesting after all.

By the way, once you have read sufficient heroic fantasy by
Moorcock, you are ready to read the Dancers at the End of Time
trilogy in which he mercilessly rips all his other books to comic
shreds.  The hero is the Eternal Champion again, but this time gone
to decadence and being shamelessly manipulated by yet another
incarnation of the Eternal Champion.  Lots of giggles, especially
for those who can catch the multitude of snide references to
Moorcock's other work.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind
Date: 31 Jul 85 18:40:09 GMT

> From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
> The connection between Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind has been
> mentioned quite often in the last few weeks, up to <whoeveritwas>
> who commented that Moorcock had written a book about the band
> entitled _Time of the Hawklords_.

In the most recent Elric book (Elric at the End of Time?) Moorcock
tells in his forward that he modeled Elric after himself at a
particularly depressing stage in his life/career.

The contrasts between Britain and Melnibone/Granbretan are evident.

In the discussions of Zelazny characters some people stated, and I
agree, that all of the star characters are actually rather similar
bravados.  I think that this is basically true of Moorcock as well,
despite the guise that all his heroes are really the same anyway, as
different forms of the eternal champion, sidekick, vilain, birdshit,
or whatever (for those who wish to flame me for this criticism just
read the Castle Brass series first).

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte
ps- don't get me wrong, the Elric saga is a personal favorite...

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: FOOTFALL, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, 1985
Date: 31 Jul 85 21:11:49 GMT

     (The usual caveats: Jerry Pournelle is an acquaintance of mine.
We've exchanged letters, he's bought me some drinks, and it's
conceivable that the character "Brant Chisholm" got his name from
mine.)

     (Second caveat: nowhere on the cover do the words "science
fiction" appear.  This is a mainstream novel by two SF writers, with
an SF plot.  Whatever that means.)

     Alien invasion stories have been done before.  They seem to be
enjoying a renaissance.  They're a natural for excitement, suspense,
and lots of action.  They can also serve as a platform for neat
ideas, political and philosophical statements, and examination of
just what in our world is worth fighting for.

     FOOTFALL is long on excitement, suspense, action, nifty
weapons, and characters.  Oh, lord, characters.  There are one
hundred and twenty-two characters (they're listed inside the covers,
and again after the table of contents).  A lot of them are spear
carriers.  None of them is very three dimensional, though some are
original enough to come alive slightly.  If you read novels for
characterization, skip this one.

     If you read SF for brilliant, original ideas, you too may not
be very interested.  Niven and Pournelle don't touch Fermi's Paradox
("If there's intelligent life in the universe, where is everyone?").
There's not much motivation as to why the Fithp are in our solar
system (the motivation is in fact mentioned near the end of the
novel), or why, aside from being a warrior race, they want to take
over our planet and keep us alive.  There *are* some reasons they
want to take over our planet, instead of just building space
habitats, and those reasons are part of the conflict.

     So, FOOTFALL doesn't do for alien invasion stories what STAR
WARS did for SF movies; it does entertain.  There are some really
spiffy weapons in here (orbital tank killers?!) The prose is more
than competent.  The high stakes make the suspense nearly
unbearable.  And, dammit, the pages turn and turn, and the story
keeps going on, picking up steam as it goes.

     This isn't *THE* alien invasion story.  It's just a pretty good
one.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1985 11:58:58-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Generation Ships

So far, the response to the request for SF references about
"Generation Ships" has not been extensive.  I imagine there must be
several novels dealing with space ships that take so long to reach
their destinations, but the first that springs to mind is STARBURST,
by Fred Pohl.  This is the best example of his writing that I've
seen, and is an interesting way to deal with the topic, as well.

In STARBURST, we put a shipload of colonists (only 8 members!?) onto
a ship destined for a planet revolving around Alpha Centauri.  This
planet is the figment of the imagination of Dr. Knefhausen, and the
mission to colonize this planet is doomed to fail.  The good Doctor
is much more interested in the effects of deep-space travel on the
Unlucky Eight (my own appellation), and on their descendants.  The
four couples chosen for this mission are certainly above average
intelligence, and seem to have unlimited resources and libraries on
board.  I can't tell you more than that -- it's worth reading, at
least once.

In fact, I'll read it again as soon as I've finished FOUR THOUSAND
IN GEHENNA, by C. J. Cherryh.  I'm halfway through this novel, the
first I've read by Cherryh, and I can hardly put it down...keep
bumping into walls, and calibans.... :-)
                                        MJM, Soft. Pub's, DEC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 20:56:28 CST
From: Doug Monk <bro@rice.ARPA>
Subject: RE : RE : cold-blooded cuteness

In SFLD V10 #287, it was suggested that :
>The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural
>universal.  For example: a rather decadent Chinese banquet delicacy
>was live baby mice dipped in honey and rolled in sesame seeds. Yum.

Not a good counter-example : baby mice only meet the helpless
criterion of the cuteness index ( which someone else posted a
partial version of earlier. ) The only really "cute" mice in fact
are cartoon mice, which are artificially altered to fit the cuteness
profile better.

>...Another for example: the fellows up in the Great White North who
>make their living clubbing baby seals probably don't shed any tears
>over the 'cute' baby seals with their 'cute' big eyes. I suspect
>the 'cute' reaction is primarily a fairly recent Anglo-American
>cultural tradition, since I've never seen it mentioned in any other
>cultural contexts. Anyone else out there have any ideas about this?

In behavioral science, one of the most popular theories to bandy
about ( especially when what one is working on is not too
interesting ) is the issue of "instincts" in human beings.  One
school of thought holds that the "cuteness reflex" is so pervasive
in almost all of human society that it qualifies as an "instinct".
There have been studies done which indicate that there are certain
qualities which trigger this reflex, and these qualities have been
tabulated into a "cuteness profile" ( including large eyes, large
head in proportion to the body, helplessness, etc. ) Since I am not
working in the behavioral field any longer ( bitten by the computer
bug, oh no !-), I can't come up with more specifics right at the
moment, but try the Social Sciences Index in a good research
library.

As to slaughtering baby seals for profit, I don't think that the
"instinct" if it is such ( and there are schools of thought that
maintain it is just a strong reflex which might be learned in its
entirety ) is strong enough to completely overwhelm all other
factors : greed, sadism, self-defense, etc.  Just as in animals, it
would be expected that instincts can be over-ridden.  The fact that
the slaughter of baby seals raises such vehement outrage in other
people might be attributed to the "instinct", though.

It might be interesting to compile a list of baby animals people
consider cute and compare with a list of non-cute baby animals and
see how well it matches or violates the cuteness profile. ( No, I am
NOT volunteering!  I'm busy that day... :-).

Doug Monk (bro@rice.arpa)

------------------------------

From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN)
Subject: Re: Ewoks and NutraSweet (really saturday morning SW)
Date: 31 Jul 85 17:19:10 GMT

Two Saturday morning cartoons called "Droids" and "Ewoks"
respectively are scheduled for this fall (NBC, around 9AM, replacing
"Mighty Orbots", I think).  Does anybody know whether they will be
animated by Lucasfilm or by some random hanna-barbarians?

"Droids" is reportedly what C3PO and R2D2 were doing before the time
of the existing SW movies; perhaps this is how SW #1-#3 are going to
reach the screen.  As to "Ewoks", I await only the episode where
they meet the Smurfs and the Care Bears, and the cuteness overload
makes Endor implode into a neutron star. :-)

Mike Rubin      {ihnp4, rest of AT&T}!mtuxn!newtech!rubin

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner)
Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens
Date: 31 Jul 85 01:14:22 GMT

jackson@ttidcb.UUCP (Dick Jackson) writes:
>Wasn't it Fermi who asked about 40 years ago "If there are advanced
>races out there in the stars, where are they?" meaning that at
>least one star faring race should have explored the whole place by
>now and we should have seen them.

Well, 40 years ago the idea of going to the moon was considered
preposterous, and supersonic travel was "impossible"--so I wouldn't
quote 40 year old predictions...

My own response is two-fold--the size of the galaxy relative to the
size of the earth is such that looking for a needle in a haystack
would be child's play by comparison (ie, even if they were looking
for intelligent life, think of *all* the area in which to look
(don't quote me quotes of them receiving our radio signals,
either--this is forty years ago, remember?); the second thing is,
why would they come here?  Shoot, probably most of us wouldn't be
here if we could leave (joke, joke!).

>They would talk to us, and be bored a lot of the time in doing so I
>guess.  Probably they would plan for very long-term goals . Human's
>plans are generally of the order of one year (multiply or divide by
>ten). Gorillas and dogs don't plan more than a few seconds ahead.
>I'm assuming that THEY are ahead of us in roughly the same ratio as
>we are ahead of gorillas.
>
>Presumably they would have concerns that we could not even
>comprehend, and therefore cannot now speculate about! Or can we?
>Anyone care to try?

I would recommend Dorothy Lessing's works to anyone interested in
these types of questions...as a matter of fact, I would recommend
her "Shikasta" series to *anyone*, regardless of their interests.
They were primarily philosophical and political criticism vehicles,
I suppose, but they were quite good as science fiction in their own
right.  Or as satire (especially "The Sentimental Agents").  Alas, I
can't remember a single other title...there goes the senility again!

Roy Turner
School of Information and Computer Science
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1448-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #301
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 301

Today's Topics:

              Books - Heinlein & Best SF of the Year,
              Films - Zenna Henderson,
              Television - Dr. Who,
              Miscellaneous - Overpopulation (2 msgs) &
                      Cuteness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sun!alan@topaz.arpa (Alan Marr, Sun Graphics)
Subject: Heinlein's New Book
Date: 31 Jul 85 07:54:50 GMT

I am told by Printer's Inc. that his new book has a title like "The
Cat Who Walked Through Walls: A Comedy of Manners" and is due out
this fall.

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: TERRY CARR'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR
Date: 31 Jul 85 21:28:08 GMT

     Let's see.  Carr's BEST SF OF THE YEAR #12 must have appeared
in 1983 for it to have one a Locus Award in 1984, so this must be
number fourteen.  Oddly enough, neither a series number nor the year
appear anywhere in the title; I think the name changed when Carr
started editing the series for Tor.  But what'll they call it next
year?

     "Best of the Year" anthologies have a tendency to be pretty
good, Carr's more so (in my opinion) than others.  His picks (like
Gardner Dozois's, for his anthology) tend to include more
experimental stuff than others.  If that doesn't appeal to you,
maybe you'd be better off with another "Best".

     The lead story is John Varley's Nebula-winning "Press Enter _",
and let me say something right here about the typography.  The last
character in the title is supposed to be a blinking block cursor.
Oddly enough, none of the books that make reference to the story
manage the blinking.  I can't even manage the block, so I've
substituted an underline (that's what my cursor looks like).  I've
got lots to say about "Press Enter _"; I'll say it some other time.

     The other stories?  "Blued Moon" by Connie Willis is a funny,
twisted story about life in a research corporation where the most
common language is Jargon, one young man intends to use his three
fiances ("fee-an-sees") as stepping stones to the boss's daughter,
said daughter is looking for someone who speaks English, and the
company linguist is wondering just what he was hired for.  Charles
L. Harness's "Summer Solstice" is a historical tale of an alien in
distress, and Eratosthenes in Ptolemy's court in Alexandria.  I
don't know enough of the period to know if this is supposed to be an
alternate history story.  Alternate or ours, if you like historical
SF, you'll like this story more than I did.  "Morning Child" is a
typical Gardner Dozois tale, with vivid prose, a gimmick you'll
likely guess before the end, and not much "story" worth mentioning.
George Alec Effinger tells us about "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean,
*Everything*" with wit and skill.

     I don't usually care for Tanith Lee, but "A Day in the Skin
(or, the Century We Were Out of Them)" got to me.  Neat idea, good
execution.  Bob Leman's "Instructions" isn't a story, exactly, but
it's a nice piece of writing, and I liked it.  Carr bought Kim
Stanley Robinson's first two novels, THE WILD SHORE and ICEHENGE,
for Ace, and "The Lucky Strike" for UNIVERSE 14.  I liked it a lot
there, I like it a lot here, it's another Nebula winner, and I told
you so.  "Green Hearts" is Lee Montgomerie's first story, a tale of
genetic modification.  It brings to mind Alan Gopin's generic
comment, "It seems to be vague, but is in fact meaningless." The
story's not bad, but I'm not sure it belongs in a "Best of".  (If
Carr wanted something from INTERZONE, couldn't he have found
something stronger?  I guess his tastes and mine diverge.)

     Octavia E. Butler copped another Nebula award with
"Bloodchild".  This is a hell of a piece of writing.  This is a
terrific story.  Not recommended for reading right before bedtime.
Otherwise, highly recommended.

     Michael Stanwick's "Trojan Horse" is about a lot of things:
personality transfer and surgery, God, love, God, religion, and
psychology.  Pamela Sargent's story is called "Fears"; it's a very
paranoid story about a person who, considering the world of the
story, is justifiably very paranoid.  If you're still fighting
"Women's Lib", you won't want to read this one at all.  (But maybe
half a dozen tag-team feminists will force feed it to you?)
"Trinity" by Nancy Kress is another story about God, this time using
cloning and drugs to examine divinity.

     Quite a variety.  You'll find something you'll dislike.  You'll
find several stories that will haunt you.  You'll find all three
Nebula award winners for short SF.  "Best" is a hard title to
justify; Carr has.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 Aug 85 02:07:19-CDT
From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA
Subject: Zenna Henderson TV movie

              Zenna Henderson's "The People" TV Movie

I've been trying to promote a "Zenna Henderson Remembrance Day" at
NASFiC.  On that Saturday one of the papers in the academic track is
about her People stories; there's going to be a group present an
oral reading of her story "Subcommittee"; and at least a couple
relevant songs have been promised for the filking that night.

What we really need, though, is that made-for-TV movie based on her
People stories (starring William Shatner), from 'way back before
there were home video-recorders.  Evidently it's not in any film
catalogs, and no one I've yet contacted has been able to cite a
source for rental/borrowing.

If there's help ANYWHERE, it ought surely to be here on SF-LOVERS...
(or, some other more media-oriented BBoard you could pass this plea
on to?)

------------------------------

From: whuxcc!mda@topaz.arpa
Subject: Old Doctor Who Episodes
Date: 30 Jul 85 17:41:49 GMT

WNJN (New Jersey Network, channel 50 in North Jersey) is going to
show about 17 Doctor Who episodes from the early 60's with William
Hartnell starring as the (original) Doctor.  These ought to be
real classics (they're even in black and white), and they begin
airing on Saturday, September 7 after WNJN finishes off Jon Pertwee
:-).

Too bad I won't be anywhere near NJ at that time, but I suppose many
others will.  By the way, after the Hartnell episodes, Doctor Who is
going to take a vacation from WNJN and won't be shown for some time.
So it goes.
                                Mark Abramowitz
                                Bell Communications Research
                                Morristown, NJ
                                ...!ihnp4!whuxcc!mda

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 29 Jul 85 18:30:24 GMT

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there
>>is such a thing as enough living space.  Exponential growth will
>>use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order.
>This itself is a fallacy, on two counts.  As far as humans are
>concerned, exponential is characteristic of a certain phase of
>technological and cultural development.  Most developed societies
>today have either slowly growing or stable populations.  I terms of
>other races, well, whose to say?  I would venture to guess,
>however, that a race which had an unalterable tendency towards high
>growth rates would have a hard time developing adequate technology;
>too much effort would be going into people starving.

I believe that stable populations are a temporary anomaly.  Only
populations which lack room to expand are stable.  The reason is
that that which holds still is sooner or later overwhelmed by that
which keeps growing.  This is a fundamental fact for both biological
and cultural evolution.

You are confusing "exponential" growth rates with "high" growth
rates.  Exponential means that the annual growth is some fraction of
the total population.  For growth to not be exponential, ultimately
all but a tiny fraction of the populated area must have ZPG.

My example assumes a growth rate of .7 to 3%.  We have acheived
considerable technological gains with a growth rate in that range.
But even a growth rate two or three orders of magnitude lower
doesn't change the argument significantly: you run out of space very
quickly, as measured by an astronomical time scale.  And remember,
it only takes ONE race to fill the entire galaxy.

>>  This will get us to the nearest star in about forty years.
>That's a generation ship.  Very few women are fertile after 40 years.

Perhaps a one-generation ship :-).  It's not "our great great
grandchildren will get there."

>> That gets us there in about seven years (a bit less for the
>>travelers.)  Right now it looks like the biggest problem with this
>>drive is producing anti-matter economically (it can already be
>>produced, using particle accelerators, it's just fantastically
>>expensive).
>Well, unless you are going to break out of the current laws of
>physics, it takes the same amount of energy to get there in a
>certain time no matter how you store the power.  You either have to
>generate it along the way, or produce it all at the beginning and
>store it somewhere (and storage isn't necessarily a problem).

Storage probably is the problem, unless you generate it along the
way.  Even assuming fusion, the reaction mass is significant
compared to the size of the ship.  That means you have to carry more
reaction mass to accelerate the fuel, and you wind up using LOTS of
energy.  Of course, a ramjet will solve the problem, but ramjets may
or may not be workable.  My point is that there a lot of potential
technologies, and almost certainly, SOME of them work.

>  And it's a LOT of energy, all of which you have to get rid of if
>you expect to stop when you get there.

The seven year figure assumes you accelerate halfway, and decelarate
the other half.

>"Tom, how am I going to generate that kind of power?  It can't be
>done!"

There is plenty of energy available from the sun.  If you wanted to
move whole planets, it would get problematical, but for spacecraft
there is no problem.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Advanced races and overpopulation
Date: 29 Jul 85 19:05:51 GMT

It is quite correct that space colonization won't cure
overpopulation.  But overpopulation WILL cause space colonization,
because it is to the advantage of the person who leaves to do so.
He or she gets to live in a more pleasant environment (at least
marginally), and have as many children as desired.

Sure, the average Joe would rather live in the Riviera.  But even
today, that isn't an option for most of us.  There comes a point
where what you have is bad enough that you take a chance with
something new.  The U.S.  did get colonized, after all.

The marching morons scenario won't work with normally intelligent
human beings.  You can't fool all the people all the time.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness
Date: 30 Jul 85 21:05:01 GMT

milne@uci-icse writes:

>>  universal.  . . .  Another for example: the fellows up in the
>>  Great White North who make their
>   There are few surer ways to arouse my ire than to make remarks
>   like that about Canadians.  You are, I assume, referring to the
>   harp seal hunt in Newfoundland.  I suggest you find out what
>   actually happens (and NOT from Greenpeace, who paid to have a
>   baby seal skinned alive for a photographer: the only time it was
>   ever done) before you draw these conclusions.  To put it mildly,
>   the image spread by the most vocal people is rather one-sided.

So what happens? My understanding is that the people who kill the
seals are Canadian citizens, and that they use clubs to do it. Also,
that at least some of them are living close to the edge and depend
on this income for survival. Hence the 'make their living...' Heh,
heh...  perhaps you think I'm a typical crunchy-granola eating
Greenpeacer or something of the sort. Or perhaps you have a
knee-jerk reaction to ANYONE from the USA making ANY statement about
Canadians. I could care a fig about saving cute little baby seals,
and my statement WASN'T intended to be a statement of support for
those who are critical of the seal harvest OR a slam against
Canadians. I care a great deal more about the Canadians who must
feed their families than about young wild animals whose 'natural'
deaths would probably be a lot more brutal than a quick clubbing. I
DO care a great deal about the exploitation of endangered species,
because the number of species that have gone extinct in the past
100-150 years is staggering and the relationship between diversity
and stability in ecosystems is far from clear. My understanding is
that the harp seal is far from being an endangered species, however.
If you're reacting emotionally to some perceived slur against
Canadians in general, I'm sorry but that wasn't the intention of the
comment. It may be that the wording of the statement was ambiguous,
and I apologize for that.

>   Reactions to the softer, more rounded forms of younger animals
>   and birds have been studied by biologists.  The same sort of
>   reactions are found across species, never mind cultures.

You mean, perhaps, 'in different species' rather than 'across
species.'

>   For instance, if a cardboard model is placed in a bird's nest,
>   next to the real hatchling, and it is made even more rounded
>   (what is called "supernormal"), the adult seems to prefer it
>   over the real hatchling.  And just watching the drawings
>   comparing model to hatchling, you had to admit the model was
>   cuter.

Suggestive, but what does 'seems to prefer' mean? Greater feeding
frequency? And have the results been replicated? And how do you
quantify 'cuter': 30% cuter? 60% cuter? Saying that birds pay
greater attention to a model that's more rounded than its own young
is one thing; extrapolating this to a general cross-species genetic
predisposition for something you call 'cuteness' is quite another.
'Having to admit' a high degree of cuteness is hardly a scientific
observation.

A scientific experiment like the above doesn't mean a lot out of
context, and you haven't mentioned either corroboration or criticism
of the findings. I'm not familiar with the study you site since I'm
not an animal behaviorist, but I'll wager that there's not a
consensus on its validity OR meaning among animal behaviorists.

>   Same for supernormal models of baby rabbits, and of human
>   babies, even though, view objectively, they looked acutely
>   hydrocephalic and in need of immediate surgery..  (If anybody's
>   interested, I believe at least some of these experiments were
>   done by Nikko Tinbergen in his famous experiments with gulls).
>   So I believe it's more biological than cultural.

You can believe it all you want, but if you can't show me a gene in
HUMANS that predisposes them to this kind of behavior you haven't
proved a thing regarding the existence or nonexistence of a genetic
predisposition to nurture 'cuteness' in human beings.

I refer anyone who's interested to my postings in net.singles a
month or two ago in which inheritance of behavior was discussed. One
of those postings gave a bibliography to start people out on an
investigation of the topic; I refer you to those postings for my
position and arguments on this topic. I'm not going to go through it
all again in a different newsgroup.

I'll repeat a challenge I made there: I challenge anyone in this
newsgroup to show me a study whose results have clearly linked a
human behavior to a gene or group of genes, and whose results have
(a) been corroborated by followup studies and (b) shown not to be
fraudulent.  Cyril Burt's often-mentioned identical twin studies do
NOT qualify because of (b).

>   And even culturally, enjoyment of cuteness can hardly be called
>   recent.  Look at the number of Victorian books (though I admit
>   I'm thinking of children's books right now) in which it appears.

The Victorian era counts as recent in my book.

                             -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Aug 85 1526-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #302
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 302

Today's Topics:

         Books - Heinlein & Moorcock & Generating Fantasy,
         Films - Hobbs End & Things to Fear &
                 SF Westerns (3 msgs) & Ladyhawke
         Music - Wakeman & Jean-Luc Ponty,
         Miscellaneous - Ewoks (2 msgs) & Why Leave Home &
                 Technology vs Magic & Chris Lloyd & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!gdh@topaz.arpa (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Green Hills of Earth
Date: 24 Jul 85 16:11:49 GMT

>BTW, Does anyone have the complete lyrics of Heinlein's "Green
>Hills of Earth" Thanks.
>Aline

The only place the words to "The Green..." occurs is in the book
published by Pan ( in UK ) called "the Green Hills of Earth " and
even in the story about Rhysling some of the verses are only
mentioned not quoted. But if its been published in the states I'd be
interested as well.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gdh
DARPA: gdh%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gdh@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4146
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind
Date: 31 Jul 85 12:49:31 GMT

> From: 4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@ymir.ARPA (Will Duquette)
> I do believe that Moorcock actually "created" the band in his
> books about Jerry Cornelius.... So far as I know, the *real* band
> got their inspiration from this.
>
> Anybody know for sure?

Well, I find this hard to believe since Michael Moorcock is a
sometimes member of Hawkwind, but not a founding member.  In any
case, when were the books written?  Hawkwind dates back to 1968 --
though at that time their name was "Hawkwind Zoo".

                         Doug Alan
                          nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 11:39:13 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: D&D adventures in fiction

>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.

I know of one through personal experience, not a book but a short
story.  The story in question is titled "Just Call Me Albert" (I
think) and was published in "Dragontales", a one-time-only TSR
publication of fantasy stories.  I was the DM for the adventure in
question, which was only slightly less bizarre than Martin Mundt
(adventurer and author) wrote it up.  It was loads of fun, and I
enjoyed seeing it show up in print, too.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 1985 08:20:08-EDT (Thursday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: Hobbs End

The movie involving Hobbs End was not Lovecraftian, but "5 Million
Years to Earth"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 08:44 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: The Devil at Hobbs End?

> In this flick, excavation for a subway uncovers this strange blue
> spaceship, which contains a few dead grasshopper aliens....

I remember watching this as a kid and loving it.  It scared me good,
but it was called Five Million Years to Earth, as I recall.
Needless to say, the aliens aren't dead and things get pretty weird
for all involved.  I'm not surprised it was by HP Lovecraft.

On a similar note, anyone remember a story that appeared in an HPL
collection (maybe by someone else) about a grown up reading about a
friend's mutilation murder and remembering their imagined monster (a
nasty critter with no face) that lived in a dark section of
sidewalk.  That was the exact place his friend wa killed.  He had
stopped to look back.  Still gives me a shiver when I'm walking in
the dark.

And does anyone else have a small fear induced by TV/books/movies?
I get the heebie geebies whenever I'm in a dark heavily vegetated
garden.  I'm afraid Miss Green Fingers from Night Gallery is going
to sprout up and get me.  Good thing I don't believe it, but you try
and tell my fear glands that.  And it didn't save the fellow in the
last paragraph.

Jon Pugh
(Too scared to go out, and too scared to stay home)

Ps.  An idea!
I'm interested in collecting one liners. Things to be afraid of.

Like:

Those little guys in the basement fireplace that want to drag you
down there.  (Don't be Afraid of The Dark)

Dolls with sharp teeth and a necklace that "you dare not remove".
(Trilogy of Terror)

Mail to me, I'll post a collection.
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  1 Aug 1985 05:50:01-PDT
From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (DTN264-5090)
Subject: SF WESTERNS

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the film "Moon Zero Two"
produced by Hammer Films of England.  It used blatant western themes
throughout the film.  There were actual cowboys (of sorts) on the
moon, along with a saloon.  Catherine Schell was one of the stars
(back when she was Catherine Von Schell).

An awful film.

------------------------------

From: inset!jmc@topaz.arpa (John Collins)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Westerns
Date: 2 Aug 85 11:43:35 GMT

chabot@miles.DEC (Sxyzyskzyik) writes:
>"Westworld" is obvious, and "Star Wars" is good too, but "Outland"
>was really "High Noon" with a few changes and fancy sets.  There
>are also Star Trek episodes (and it's amazing how many distant
>planets look like Vasquez Rocks) & novels that are westerns.

I have thought that since about 1969 when I used to watch "Star
Trek" on Wednesdays and "The Virginian" on Fridays on BBC TV. I
thought then:

        SAME                                    DIFFERENT

        Plot                                    Props
        Fact you can guess plot in <5 mins
        from start
        Time of showing
        Duration
        Good guys win (& survive to next week)
        (Quite often) Actors!
        etc

Nothing new under the Sun (even when it isn't `THE' sun)....

John M Collins          ....mcvax!ist!inset!jmc
Phone:  +44 727 57267
Snail Mail: 47 Cedarwood Drive, St Albans,
Herts, AL4 0DN, England.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 85 11:48:22 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: SF westerns

There is a novel called "The Hawkline Monster (a Gothic Western)" by
the late Richard Brautigan.  It isn't really a western, a gothic, or
SF, but has some elements of all three.
                             marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 1 Aug 85 13:55:01-EDT
From: Mike Thome <MTHOME@BBNG.ARPA>
Subject: Ladyhawke and spoilers

Fer Gawd's sake!  The name of the movie gives away the curse!

Also, Anyone want to speculate on how much coincidence was involved
in the level of resemblence between (1) the two "little people" in
Black Cauldron and (2) the two types of Gremlins?... It was almost
too much for me - but then, wasn't BC started significantly before
G?  What's the explanation? Spies? Common ancestor(s)? Blind
coincidence?
                                Mike Thome
                                mthome@bbng

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 08:54 PDT
From: Mohr.pa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Rick Wakeman

What about Rick Wakeman's album Journey_to_the_Center_ of_the_Earth?
It came out in approximately 1974.  Narration allows the music to
follow the book pretty closely.  It was a rather big production at
the time with synthesizers, orchestra and chorus.

Unhappily, it is not as well done as War_of_the_Worlds (Yes, I've
heard that one too).  At one point it sounds as though the orchestra
moved to the next room.  Still a rather enjoyable listen, though.

Has anyone else used the SFbook-to-album format?

Bill Mohr

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 85 11:52 EDT
From: ------ Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: sf in music

Jazz violinist Jean-Luc Ponty has a cut called "Wandering On The
Milky Way" on the "Imaginary Voyage" album.  The title cut (which is
the whole second side) isn't specifically science fiction, but it
has the feel.  Doesn't Spider Robinson mention Ponty in the
"Melancholy Elephants" collection?

Anne McCaffery's epsodic book "To Ride Pegasus" contains an episode
about a folk singer who can manipulate the emotions of crowds as she
sings.

Jessie (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abomina
Date: 29 Jul 85 21:01:00 GMT

>I think that ROTJ overdid it -- the attackes the Ewoks made on the
>imperial forces were just TOO primitive to be effective...

Ah, but they didn't succeed -- if you'll remember, they started to
loose and our good ole human buddies stepped in and used the
troopers own machines against them...

>if the stormtroopers fall apart that easily they never would have
>gotten that far in the first place...

If you believe that, you've been in neither a corporation nor the
military.  And you've definitely never been in a war...

The stormtroopers never got any "far" -- that's done by generals and
other politicians...
                                blues, II

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 1985 1451-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA>
Subject: re: cuteness et al.

If the Ewoks were ever seen and/or scanned by the Imperial Storm
Troopers there would have been a nice big Ewok hunt and they would
all be gone from at least that part of the 'forest moon'. Why would
a ruthless intersteller force allow even 'cute' and 'harmless'
little teddy bear creatures to run around that star empire's number
one military installation? The sheild was then the only thing that
could protect the Death Star II. They had no problem killing of the
Jawa's in Star Wars, why not kill of the Ewoks in RoTJ? Then Luke
and company could have come to the aid of the 'poor defenseless
teddy bears' and we could have all given a big 'ahhhhhhhhhh' when
Luke 'forced' the sh*t out of the big bad storm troopers who were
having fun blasting the Ewoks...

That would have made an even better Christmas marketing blitz and
would have made the Ewok participation in the assault on the force
shield more convincing. They would be defending their home against
the alien invaders instead of helping out a 'golden monotone
storyteller and its friends'!!!  What about that?

Warren (SANDER @ DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Why Leave Home At All?
Date: 1 Aug 85 13:43:46 GMT

crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes:
>       When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate
>all the people we already have (why talk about racial survival if
>the ones alive right now are not counted priceless?) and can
>establish a homeostasis on this ball of dirt so that it is a stable
>place -- then, and only then would I say we had earned the right to
>leave.

I would point out that the kind of energy needed for serious
interstellar travel is probably about comparable to that needed to
support the rest of the globe in the US lifestyle-- probably even
more.  I doubt that there is the political will to so apply it
though; we will almost certainly try space travel first.

Charley Wingate   umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 85 11:21 EDT
From: Stephen Mahan <steve@ncsc>
Subject: Science and magic

In answer to a question about the co-existence of science and magic,
the book _The Big U_ deals with the collision of scientific and
magical universes.  The book is a parody of life at a large college
(American Megaversity) complete with dorm life, absurd
administration, and the rest of the normal challenges of life(?) at
school.
     For those of you who attended a massive university, a look
back.  The rest of you will see what you missed :-)

                        steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 09:00 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Chris Lloyd

I was watching Showtime last night and what to my startled eyes
should appear?  Chris Lloyd as the PE coach in, catch this, The Joy
of Sex.  A junk movie, we watched it with the sound off and missed
nothing.  Ah well, everyone has to eat.  Actors included.  I would
say this was made a while ago, though.  He looks like he has lost
weight since then.

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: What Invaders Want (with WAMCLOS list)
Date: 30 Jul 85 22:16:17 GMT

> I just finished reading Wayne Throop's posting on this subject, in
> which he says something like "Earlier postings have established
> that we would have no material wealth that invading aliens would
> want" (apologies for any drastic misquoting, but that was the gist
> of the comment).

Not a misquote.  My exact words were "Earlier articles point out
that we have no material wealth to offer an advanced technology, and
slave labor seems ridiculously expensive to a technically advanced
society." I was refering to the earlier posting of the notion that
any material wealth on earth is also on planets elsewhere in the
solar system with little or no gravity wells (and no hostile natives
(I assume)).  But you give an interesting counter-example below, so
I'd like to expand on this a little.

> I can easily imagine a technologically advanced race scouring
> other planets looking for certain elements (I dunno, Chromium, or
> Tungsten, or something).  In fact, I can imagine them valuing
> certain materials, which we value highly, even higher.  "Can you
> believe it, Chbik?  These humanoids were *burning* their
> *hydrocarbons*!"

So can I.  But why come to earth for it?  Asteroids and other
easier-to-process sources for it exist nearby.  I also can't buy the
slave-labor notion.  The technology to get here would seem to me to
imply the technology to refine most anything they would want from
asteroids.

However, your point about hydrocarbons is a telling one.  Biological
material is a good possibility (since the physical technology needed
for interstellar transport doesn't imply synthetic biologicals).
Therefore, I'll have to add to my (rather short) list of Why Aliens
Might Conquor Little Old Us (WAMCLOS list):

  - insanity
  - disaster
  - biological resources

Note that this list doesn't "invalidate" very many SF stories.
Almost all aliens-conquor-us SF can be sorted into one of the first
two cases (as opposed to aliens-visit-us, which is a much broader
category).  Does anybody know of a clear-cut example of the third?

> Never having seen an episode of V (hurray for me!),

I'll admit to having seen one (1) episode.  It was more than enough.

> I can't conjecture too successfully on why the lizards wanted
> water.  But answer this for me: were they stealing salt water or
> fresh water?  Or tap water?

Not clear, but I *think* it was fresh water, pumped from some
aqueduct or other in California.  And the point remains that V had
the lizards after two things, meat and water.  Both of these things
(given interstellar technology) would be easier to obtain locally
than by interstellar transport.  Now, if they'd been after some rare
drug, or if they were pumping oil rather than water...

(About meat: I'm not saying they might not take a few folks for
noshes on the way back home.  But the correct strategy (it seems to
me) would be to take just a few, and breed more when you get home.
In *this* sense, meat is easier to obtain locally than from earth.
(Thus, something with a faster breeding cycle would be indicated...
they should take rabbits.)  Therefore, I don't class meat as a
biological resource worth conquering earth to obtain.)

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 85 0951-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #303
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 303

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Niven & Women Writers,
                   Films - 2010 & Night of the Comet &
                           Star Trek & Five Million Years to Earth &
                           Sexism in Movies,
                   Music - War of the Worlds & Hawkwind,
                   Miscellaneous - Quote Source & Chris Lloyd &
                           Technology vs Magic & Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john)
Subject: Re: Protector psychology
Date: 29 Jul 85 20:27:00 GMT

>Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of
>the hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the
>population of Home (several million people).  Many of these people
>killed are their relatives.  They do this to preserve humanity in
>general in the long term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order
>of 20 billion people).  They seem to have no major qualms about
>this.

 They knew about the other ships from Pak that were approaching and
did that to prevent total annilhilation.

>Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the
>solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent
>destruction.  Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a
>few years, but she refrains because using the system would kill 5%
>of the population.

 Niven mentioned something about another protector besides Teela
that would try and move the Ringworld inhabitants. Assuming that was
possible then the greatest number could be saved by not saving
Ringworld. Another explanation could be that Protectors view
morality in a different light than we do. We tend to believe that
failing to save a life is sometimes the same as murder.  A protector
may feel that death due to Ringworld's destruction was natural and
would not justify intentional murder to prevent. You must remember
that Teela was compelled by instinct that contradicted what her
intelligence told her to do.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn)
Subject: Sherri Tepper & Patricia McKillip
Date: 30 Jul 85 12:18:13 GMT

Personally I like "The Revenants" by Sherri Tepper much more than
any of her other books (True Game trilogy & Mavin Manyshaped
trilogy).  Her True Game world is a a nice setting for light fantasy
('though she does interject some difficult moral issues at times).
"The Revenants" is set in a more complex, and to me, more satisfing
setting.  "The Revenants" is a slightly strange work, the BASIC tone
and outlook of the book changes several times, but then odd outlooks
is one of the reasons I read F&SF.

About Patricia McKillip, in addition to "The Forgotten Beasts of
Eld" and the Star Trilogy ("The Riddle-Master of Hed", "Heir of Sea
and Fire", & "Harpist in the Wind"), she's done several children's
books (one of which can be read by anyone: "The Throme of the Erril
of Sheril"), and one that's hard to classify ("Stepping From the
Shadows").  I suppose you could call SFtS an adult main-stream
fantasy.  I consider it borderline F&SF; but then I think that
water's wet, so what do I know.

One thing that's odd is how many of my favorite fantasy writers are
women.  Dianne Duane, R. A. MacAvoy, Patricia McKillip, Robin
McKinley, Meredith Ann Pierce, Sherri Tepper, Cherry Wilder, & Jane
Yolen are all good fantasy writers.  I also like Pamela Dean & P. C.
Hodgell, but I'll wait until their second book to see if they can
maintain the quality of their first novel.

John Wenn

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 26 Jul 85 13:56:27 GMT

> I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night at a revival
> theater. [ ...] assuming everything happened just the way the
> movie said it did, how did people on Earth react?
>
> It struck me that that fancy new sun and all those weird messages
> coming over TV screens all over the planet didn't really change
> the political situation one iota.
>
> So what do you think?

As a self-proclaimed cynic, I think that the Earthlings went right
on with their nuclear war (with a suitable pause for gazing at the
special effects).  Why?  Well, all the aliens really did was give
them more living space.  The Soviets and Americans weren't fighting
over land, but political and economic ideals plus a whole lot of
mutual paranoia.  The only thing they'll do with the planets is
fight over who has control of them once the earth is a glowing husk.

                        the Shadow
                        ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                        UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

Subject: Two Messages
Date: 27 Jul 85 16:57:02 PDT (Sat)
From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>
To: Duane Morse

I haven't seen ST-III recently so I can't say who the barmaid was,
but Rand was the redhead in space dock that watched the Enterprise
"limp" in.  At first she looks like Marilu Henner from "Taxi" but if
you look close enough, you can tell that it's Grace Lee Whitney.

Doug Krause
dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 14:58:44 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>

NIGHT OF THE COMET>

a video/film review ...

Gee, I'm kind of glad I didn't shell out more than the 1.50 I spent
in renting this one.  Its transfer to the small screen really
doesn't make too much difference that I can see.  In other words the
special effects comprise only a small amount of the flick.  I guess
I should say SPOILER,SPOILER here but I'll keep it mild.

The story follows the adventures of two girls ( described as "Valley
Girls" in the videocase blurb ) in the aftermath of the end of the
world.  The catastrophe occurs after a comet visits Earth sometime
in the late 1990's, although the difference between this time and
the movie time is small ( I think one of the Val's is wearing spacey
like shoes, but all the auto's in the flick are circa 1984 ).
Despite warnings from doomsayers and thinktanks, everyone in the
world ( well, just about ) goes out to party, watch the comet and
then die leaving only our heroines and some cute guys, of course to
fend against the remaining zombies and a bunch of silly scientists
who went into hiding since they had figured out what would happen.

The plot is shallow since the girls don't really have any goal
except to find the remaining valley guys.  Also, any serious science
fiction possibilities are obscured by the silly over-characterization
of the girls.  Apparently, at the time this movie was made, being or
making fun of Valley Girls was the in-thing, much like, say, the
current Madonna craze or the Yuppie phase.  Although the girl's
shallowness draws a few chuckles, this movie doesn't address the
question of how these girls are going to survive once the automatic
functions ( electricity, water ) of the city run out.  Instead, they
run from store to store sans MasterCard trying on new clothes, etc.
until they run into the baddies and kill them.  Yecch. Yawn.

What would have been more interesting would be a look at the world
created by the Val's say 30 or 50 years later by cutting out the
spew that results between the End of the World and the final scene
where one of the boyfriends is throwing away the machine guns, and
Regina states, "The burden of Civilization is on our shoulders."  To
see how these silly dunderheads rebuild culture would be more
interesting than the Vals against the Zombies.  Since this wasn't a
resounding success at the box office, I don't think we'll ever be
seeing a sequel.

Oh well.  If you're willing to spend some money renting this turkey
( given you have or have access to a VCR ) and have an hour or two
to spare, go ahead and get "Night of the Comet."  Make sure you
invite some friends to make sarcastic comments and please don't
blame me if the the rental store doesn't give you a refund.

                                        Jim Hofmann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 85 10:06:37 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: "Five Million Years to Earth" (film)

The film identified as "The Devil of Hobbs End" is actually "Five
Million Years to Earth" [not "20,000,000 Miles to Earth", which is
another film entirely], and was originally titled "Quatermass and
the Pit".  It is one of three films featuring the hero (from BBC)
Professor Bernard Quatermass.  The Prof is played by Andrew Keir in
"5M Years"; in the other movies, ("Enemy from Space" and "The
Creeping Unknown") he was played by Brian Donlevy.  "5M Years" is
one of the best and scariest low-budget SF films of all time.  I
highly recommend it -- but not alone or late at night.

                             marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 85 14:48:03 PDT (Thursday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Sexism in movies

"I am dismayed to find that role models for girls have regressed to
self-indulgent, "material" personalities like Madonna, Brooke
Shields, and Cindi Lauper"

Anyone who would class Cyndi Lauper with Madonna and Brooke simply
has not taken the time to find out what Cyndi Lauper is all about.
In short, I will assert (and will gladly defend the assertion) that
Cyndi Lauper is one of the most positive role models -- for men OR
women, young OR old -- of the decade.  She is also one helluva
singer!

To get more topical: I have said before, and I will say again, that
I think Sigourney Weaver would make a great Cirocco (or however you
spell that damnable wind!) in the movie version of
Titan/Wizard/Demon.  This despite the fact that Sigourney has been a
one big dissappointment after another since Alien (in both "The Year
Of Living Dangerously" and "Ghostbusters" she is on stage for
stereotypical "love interests" -- she hasn't had a good role since
Alien, while Meryl Streep, on the other hand, has had her pick of
the best.)

Perry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 15:52:35 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Subject: War of the Worlds

Sorry to differ with you, jeff, but I thought "War of the Worlds"
was one of the most nauseating, overdone pieces of tripe I've ever
heard.  Unfortunately, I had two college roomates who would play
this garbage ad valium.  They were jerks so I didn't really value
their opinion anyway and their musical tastes reinforced my
feelings.

Richard Burton was overbearing and any project with David Essex's
name attached is sure to be a turkey. ( Remember his co-hosting gig
on Solid Gold ).  Jeff Wayne was from some god-awful group (correct
me if I'm wrong) called Badfinger or maybe he was John Wayne's son.
Anyway, considering all the good groups from that time period (1978)
who couldn't even get a producer to listen to their music [ I'm
talking about real music - punk ] at that time makes this
overindulgence all the more TACKY.  But then again it was pretty
indicative of the late-70's in itself.  The reason you can't find it
in a record collector store is because record collectors have good
taste!
                                        Nice flaming at you,
                                        Jim Hofmann

------------------------------

From: afw@pucc-k (schlagenha)
Subject: Re: Music in SF
Date: 1 Aug 85 14:41:56 GMT

There has been much ado about Michael Moorcock's contributions to
Hawkwind of late. I think Moorcock is great, I don't know squat
about Hawkwind. However, on the topic of Moorcock's songwriting he
is listed on the credits of two Blue Oyster Cult songs, namely
Veteran of the Psycic Wars and Black Blade. Both of obvious science
fiction-fantasy bent.
                                     Mark Schlagenhauf
                                     Purdue University
                                    ihnp4!pur-ee!pucc-k!afw

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Re: Shalmaneser and Moira
Date: 31 Jul 85 11:59:16 GMT

"What I tell you three times is true" is, I believe, from
_The_Hunting_ of_the_Snark_, by Lewis Carroll.

------------------------------

Subject: Two Messages
Date: 27 Jul 85 16:57:02 PDT (Sat)
From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>
To: Joel B. Levin

The movie that you saw was "The WOMAN In Red".  It did indeed star 
Gene Wilder but not Chris Lloyd.  The movie I mentioned was "The LADY
In Red".  It stars Pamela Sue Martin and is the story of John 
Dillinger in 20s Chicago and does have Lloyd in it.

Doug Krause dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)
Date: 26 Jul 85 13:56:27 GMT

> The interface between technology/science and magic.  The only
> novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence
> of the two, was OPERATION CHAOS by ????  Can anyone give me some
> examples of stories in a similar vein.  ... I'm thinking more of a
> situation where the two normally coexist.)

THE WITCHES OF KARRES by James H. Schmitz falls right in that
category.  Another book that is worth looking into is THE DOOMFARERS
OF CORAMONDE by Brian Daley.  The bad guys summon a dragon, so the
good guys summon an APC (they were trying for a tank).  The ensuing
battle is interesting, to say the least.  Meanwhile, one other
character is working to bring democracy and modern technology to a
basically feudal world.  Recommended.

                        the Shadow
                        ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                        UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 1985 1502-EDT
From: Warren Sander <SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA>
Subject: Why would 'they' visit us?

Seeing as we are out on one of the arms near the edge of a 'small'
galaxy we probably haven't been visited because we haven't been
found. It's like why don't people go to small towns way off the
beaten track. Because the roads either are non-existent or in need
of repair. If there is a method to FTL travel and it requires a
receiver at the other end to arrive at.  It could be an airport or a
port or some sort of machine, maybe even some amount of mass to lock
onto or a beacon of some sort. Maybe when we get out there we will
find out that there is a huge interstellar civilization but the
'road to SOL' is a bumpy one (maybe a Bob Hope XX Bing Crosby XX
movie in 2300) and they aren't coming here till we get it fixed.
When the first slow boat travels get out there and come back with
the beacon maybe then we will get more travelers coming here.

So it is no wonder that no one comes here after all when was the
last time you went to some little town out in the boonies just
because it was there? They may have good things there but it isn't
worth the hassle to go. Maybe we would get some hearty pioneers
coming here to settle but with the population on this planet they
would look at us a not even want to stop.

                Warren (SANDER @ DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 20:20 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: More about advanced aliens

1. Another reason why an advanced race of aliens might show up is to
tell up how great they are.  The Chinese did this at one point,
apparently getting as far as Africa.

2. Why no aliens have vistited us reason (n): Perhapes all other
intelligent races are reptillian.  We aren't, since all the
dinosaurs (including some that might have developed intelligence,
given time) where killed by (probably) a large something hitting
Earth at the wrong time.

In fact, maybe there were intelligent dinosaurs, who developed FTL
travel, fought a war with some other race(s), which they lost when
the other race(s) hit Earth with a large something.  The other
race(s) avoid Earth due to "bad vibes," or were also wiped out.

Anyone written an SF story along those lines?

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 85 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #304
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 304

Today's Topics:

               Books - Delaney (2 msgs) & McKillip &
                       Tepper,
               Films - The Black Cauldron (2 msgs) &
                       Battle Beyond the Stars,
               Music - The B52's,
               Television - The Twilight Zone,
               Miscellaneous - Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: unc!oliver@topaz.arpa (Bill Oliver)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren
Date: 1 Aug 85 02:44:58 GMT

rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes:
>Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting.  It is one of the few
>Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in discust.  Has anyone
>read it all the way through?  Is the ending any better?  Or does it
>just keep rambling on and on.....

Yes! I finished the thing, and it becomes more flaky the further you
go.  If you can abandon yourself to the book, and try to completely
inhibit any critical faculties you have, the obsessional nature of
the imagery can be compelling.

I read Dhalgren a second time during my Psychiatry rotations while
in med school, and discussed it with my attending physician (who was
also an avid SF reader).  We basically came to the decision that the
organization and the imagery of the novel is a great simulation of
the reality and imagery experienced by a schizophrenic, though a
really hard core symptomatic schizophrenic couldn't stay cohesive
enough to write the thing.

Any psychiatrists on the net?

Bill Oliver

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:38:27 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Subject: re:  Dhalgren ...SPOILER ... (sort of)

Rick Schieve writes:
> Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting.  It is one of the few
>Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in disgust.  Has anyone
>read it all the way through?  Is the ending any better?  Or does it
>just keep rambling on and on...?

Well, yeh, Rick.  I've read this book twice now and found it very
enjoyable.  It takes a clear and open mind to get into this one. The
second time I read it, I tried to visualize what a movie would look
like if one was ever made.  I kept on thinking of a cross between
Jim Morrison and Arnold Schwarzenegger to play the lead.  From the
beginning scene where the Kid(d) stumbles into the city of Belona to
the end when he leaves and passes someone just like him entering
this book touches on a lot of subjects not normally tackled in
Science Fiction like gang rape (both male and female), middle-class
angst and youth gangs.  Delaney also introduces gee-whizzo devices
to further his imagery like the Torchlights which project a hologram
over the user like Spiders and Dragons.  If you read closely enough
you'll find this is a modern-day version of Grendal ( get it,
Dhalgren/GrenDhal ?) and it is fun trying to figure out who
corresponds to who.  Delaney divorces himself from standard literary
style and I assume this is what you mean by 'rambling'?  At one
point he breaks the writing into two columns when action is going on
in parallel.  If you still have the book try tackling it again.  I
haven't met many sci-fi readers who don't hold this book with
anything less than awe.
                                                Jim Hofmann

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 10:28:14-PDT
From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Re: Music in SF

P. McKillip is one of my favorite authors.  I met her at a local
writing conference, and was surprised at how young she was.  The
first book I read by her was -The Forgotton Beasts of Eld- which is
a WONDERFUL book.  She said (I think) that she started to write this
book for money, but the main character Sybil kind of "took over the
book."

She has also written a short book called -The Throme of the Erril of
Sherril- (not sure of the spelling).  This she wrote after taking a
course in Middle English.  It can sometimes be found in the
children's section, as can her other books.  When I met her, about
1980, she said that she was going to try to write some mainstream
fiction.

Aline Norris Baeck
Norris@sri-ai.arpa

P.S.  Here is a list of her books according to Books in Print.  Some
have 2 versions, paperback or hardback.  Enjoy!

Moonflash                               ISBN: 0-425-08457-4
The Quest of the Riddlemaster           ISBN: 0-345-26198-4
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld             ISBN: 0-380-00480-1
Thm Oight Gift                          ISBN: 0-689-70470-4
The House on Parchment Street           ISBN: 0-689-70451-8
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld             ISBN: 0-425-06595-2
The Riddle-Master of Hed                ISBN: 0-345-28881-5
Heir of Sea & Fire                      ISBN: 0-345-28882-3
Harpist in the Wind                     ISBN: 0-689-30687-3
The Throme of the Erril of Sherill      ISBN: 0-689-30115-4
Stepping from the Shadows               ISBN: 0-689-11211-4
The Riddle-Master of Hed                ISBN: 0-689-30545-1
The Night Gift                          ISBN: 0-689-30508-7
Heir of Sea & Fire                      ISBN: 0-689-30606-7
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld             ISBN: 0-689-30434-X
Moon-Flash                              ISBN: 0-689-31049-8
Stepping from the Shadows               ISBN: 0-425-07107-3

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 13:54:36-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #291

>Has anybody read "The Revenants"?  Is it as worthwhile as the True
>Game series?

I didn't like it as much as the True Game books, but this may have
been my mood when I read it.  And there's a long way between ``not
liking it as much as the True Game books'' and ``not liking it'';
it's a pretty good book.

It reminded me very much of the True Game books, especially the more
gruesome parts.  Tepper's evil creatures seem to like torturing
their minions.  The plot had some surprises, but fit well into the
tradition of Tolkienian fantasy.  Some of the characters were very
interesting.  There were a lot of good ideas.

I can't seem to say anything about it except damning it with faint
praise, so I should explain why. Tepper's writing feels (to me) more
Literary than purely for enjoyment; more like MacAvoy and LeGuin
than Howard and Asprin.  (I don't know that Tepper intended this.) I
don't think it was very good as a work of Literature, despite its
other virtues (e.g., I couldn't understand the motives of the Evil
characters). I would have liked it better if I didn't think it was
Literature.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE BLACK CAULDRON (slight spoiler)
Date: 31 Jul 85 16:27:44 GMT

                         THE BLACK CAULDRON
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Capsule review(*): This is the most ambitious animated fantasy
from Disney since the 1950's.  But budget constraints hurt the art
and animation quality and shortened the film to the point that it
gutted the logic.  Too many of the characters are too cute.

     When you think of animated fantasy, what studio most often
comes to mind?  No question!  Disney Studios.  They created the
standard.  But even at Disney Studios, there are major and minor
animated films.  The majors tend to be classic stories, often fairy
tales, that are made for perennial re-release.  Oh, occasionally
they put RESCUERS or 101 DALMATIONS into circulation, but their
majors are films like SNOW WHITE, SLEEPING BEAUTY, PINOCCHIO, and
three or four more you can probably name off the top of your head.
For a decade, Disney Studios has worked on what seems to be their
first major in a good long time.  Now it is out.  THE BLACK CAULDRON
is an adaptation of parts of two books in Lloyd Alexander's
"Prydain" series, itself based on the Mabinogion.

     THE BLACK CAULDRON has the same basic age-old plot that STAR
WARS had.  Boy from humble background (in this case, he's an
assistant pig-keeper) dreams of glory in battle.  Before he realizes
it, he is swept into and becomes the key turning factor of a titanic
battle.  In this case, the battle is against a supremely evil
supernatural being called "The Horned King."  I don't know if we
ever find out what he is king of, but he does have a few subjects
that we see and will have a good deal more if he can unleash the
power of the McGuffin of the title.

     There is a serious problem with THE BLACK CAULDRON--it has too
much story.  SLEEPING BEAUTY and SNOW WHITE had simple short plots
you could tell in two or three sentences.  They are ideal for
animated films.  An animated film takes a lot of work to make and
Disney's tend to be 75 minutes or so.  This one is 80 with a long
credit sequence at the end.  This means that the script does not
have time to make things logical.  Too many sequences are required
to tell the story and so each sequence must be short.  Let's look at
at an example.  The hero is backed up against a wall.  Evil guards
are throwing a hail of spears at him and he's clearly in trouble.
Someone realizes that he (the hero) has a magic sword that cuts
through metal, so they stop throwing spears.  Why?  This sword is
not a shield.  The magic sword is no better than a regular sword
against that sort of an attack, but it is a good excuse for ending
the sequence and getting to the next one.  There are several other
escapes that are similarly senseless.

     The visualizations of characters are classic Disney, which is
to say that the images of evil are decent and the images of good are
enough to put you in diabetic shock.  The hero is callow, the
heroine is pretty, the pig is cute and looks very little like a real
pig.  Then there is a cute creature that looks like a miniature
cross between a sheepdog and Albert Einstein.

     The art style is an odd mixed bag of styles and at times
somewhat below the Disney standard.  In the early parts of the film
it is much the usual Disney animation, though not as complex.  At
other times, they do a sort of pastel impressionistic background to
save painting effort.  A few scenes have live action mixed in to
show flame or smoke.  There was a lot of corner-cutting on the
animation.

     On the other hand, Disney has the highest standards in the
industry for print quality.  The print was done on high-quality
celluloid with no frame-long white flashes or dark specks from
cheap film.  When I saw a brand new print of KRULL, there were so
many little flashes on the screen I though at first they were
intentional.  That never happens with a Disney film and it's time
they got some recognition for that.

     On the whole, though, I am indifferent to this film, mostly
because of a script that was so rushed that it killed the logic of
the story.  Rate it a straight 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.

     (*) Note: the suggestion to include capsule reviews is probably
a good one.  I will try it for at least a little while.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: The Black Cauldron & Cuteness: (spoiler review)
Date: 1 Aug 85 15:50:06 GMT

        Before the movie was released I looked up Lloyd Alexander's
books.  Now they looked quite interesting but I was unsettled by the
fact that they looked like children's fantasy, a fact which was
later confirmed.

        Now that I've seen the movie, I can confirm Peter Reiher's
review.  This is not as fantastic as one could hope.  But this
should not be a criticism, this IS a children's story!  This is not
adult fantasy animation (fans of Heavy Metal will agree).  There is
absolutely no bloodshed, no cursing- there is a tavern wench, but
she's mostly there for comic relief.

        Concerning Gurgi; I think the best thing about the movie was
the laughter of the (very) little children there.  Gurgi was a
unanimous favorite, played against the evil King's little monster
(whom I personally wanted to throttle).  He inspired the greatest
mirth in the children and an absolute high when he was revived.  I
think the same applies to the Ewoks.  1) any lover of teddy-bears
fell instantly in love 2) if you were a movie maker, wouldn't you
want to add these elements in to greatly increase your takings?
Although I found them a bit improbable, the Ewoks were cute and
their little war was well engineered.  It did not detract from the
main part of the movie, namely the fantastic duel between Luke and
Vader.

        If you are a fan of fantasy animation, Disney or have little
kids it is worthwhile to take the hour and a half or so to see The
Black Cauldron, the movie is not slow.  Just realize, that it's for
the kids.
                        Moshe Eliovson
                        {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Aug 85 00:03 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: "Battle Between the Stars" rehack?

While sitting around my hotel room at a computer conference last
year, I happened to catch a B-grade (or worse) "sci-fi" flick called
"Space Raiders" (or some such).  Basic plot-line: independent,
semi-piratical spaceship jockies struggle against the all-powerful
"company" which has a monopoly on starship-fuel supplies; The
Company sends out a completely robot-controlled killer ship to hunt
down & destroy the raiders.  Son of a company bigwig happens to stow
away on a raider ship, is adopted (sort of) by the raiders, finds
out they're actually better people in many ways than his family &
friends.  Lots of weird-looking aliens, odd spaceships, and so
forth... all of the usual trappings.

The thing that struck me most strongly was that all of the spaceship
shots were either identical to, mirror-image reversals of, or
clearly shot with the same models as those used in "Battle Beyond
the Stars" (a.k.a. "John-boy goes to space" to the cynical).
Sedor's command ship (with the "stellar converter") was back as the
berserker-like robot ship; Nestor's glowing-blue ship made a short
appearance, as did Zed the Corsair's cyberneticized ship (Nell?)
shaped in a way reminiscent of certain human organs (at least to my
moderately dirty mind).  The same music was used, too (at least for
the credits).

As far as I can tell, this turkey aired only on pay-TV (HBO, I
think) and has never seen the light-of-day in a network broadcast
(or on any independent station in the Los Angeles area when I've
been watching).

Question: does anyone out there have any insider information about
the relationships between these two movies?  Were the backers of
"Battle" trying to recoup some additional $$ from their investment
in models and film?  What's the story?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 85 01:11:29 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Re: Science Fiction references in music

Ahhhahhhahhahh

She came from Planet Claire
I knew she came from there
She drove a Plymouth Satellite
Faster than the speed of light

Planet Claire has pink air
All the trees are red
No one ever dies there
No one has a head

Ahhhahhhahhahh

Some say she's from Mars
Or one of the seven stars
That shine after 3:30 in the morning
WELL SHE ISN'T

She came from Planet Claire
She came from Planet Claire
She came from Planet Claire

Ahhhahhhahhahh

               "Planet Claire," the B52's

Jamie [jwz@cmu-cs-spice]

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1985 11:05-PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #291
From: Craig E. Ward <cew@isi-hobgoblin.arpa>

> Yet another episode had the father of a family travelling west,
> who are stranded in the desert running out of water and needing
> medicine for their son, somehow falling into the present and
> getting the needed water and penicillin.  I think the son, who
> survived only due to the penicillin, eventually became someone
> famous.

No, he got aspirin from an isolated diner.  (How many realize that
aspirin was first marketed in the nineteenth century)?

------------------------------

From: berman@isi-vaxa (Richard Berman)
Date: 2 Aug 1985 1010-PDT (Friday)
Subject: No Alien Contact

How many times have YOU been driving by a stranger's home and just
decided to introduce yourself?

Eh?

Richard Berman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Aug 85 1102-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #305
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 305

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bischoff & Delaney & Hubbard & Lee &
                    McKillip & Road to Corlay & 
                    Guardians of the Flame,
            Films - Back to the Future,
            Miscellaneous - Quote Source & SF Westerns & Gravity &
                    Overpopulation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri,  2 Aug 85 17:02:13 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: The Gaming Magi

                          THE DESTINY DICE
                                &
                          THE WRAITH BOARD

                         by David Bischoff

This is not so much a review as a note of appreciation.  Also, there
is little in the way of spoilage here.

These books, along with an as yet unpublished third book, comprise
The Gaming Magi trilogy.  The stories are set in a multiverse
(which, of course, includes earth), the foundation of which is
gaming.

Gaming?  Another book about Gaming?  ARRRRRRGH!

Actually, it's an interesting concept, as opposed to being another
straightforward D&D ripoff (such as Quag Keep, by Andre Norton).
There are a number of interesting characters, such as the lovely
Alandra and her Runes, the somewhat malformed Ian Farthing, and the
great gaming magi, Crowley Nilrem.  In addition, the books are
filled with bad jokes, obscure references, and relatively strange
goings on.  Most of the real action takes place in a region that is
kind of a great cosmic drain for the rest of the multiverse, and
suitably odd things show up there.

They might perhaps be a little too cute for some, but if you're into
whimsy and obscure references, you will enjoy it quite a bit.

Will Duquette

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 17:46:29 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Dhalgren reader anticipates flames

Rick Schieve asks if anyone has read Sam Delaney's DHALGREN all the
way through, whether the ending is any better, etc...

Well, I've read through DHALGREN either 3 or four times.  I'm not
sure I can answer the other questions, but I felt it was worth the
re-reading, just as rereading BOOK OF THE NEW SUN was.  Other more
obscure but interesting Delaney includes HEAVENLY BREAKFAST, a
mostly autobiographical short novel of Delaney's life/times/
experience in the rock group/commune of the same name, and THE TIDES
OF LUST, deliberately erotic/pornographic (mild but highly
descriptive).

On the other hand, I'm in no hurry to buy the newest Neveryonia
book, even in paperback (although I liked the previous two more than
not).

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!dts@topaz.arpa (Danny Sharpe)
Subject: Re: Music AND Science Fiction - Battlefield Earth
Date: 2 Aug 85 17:29:17 GMT

root@bang.UUCP writes:
>L. Ron Hubbards latest epic; "Battle Field Earth" comes complete
>with ads for the 'dynamic' musical score that he wrote for the
>book.  I guess you're supposed to play the record while reading the
>novel.
>
>Has anyone heard the music?  Is it any good?  The book itself was
>mediocre, I can guess what the music must be like.

I've got the album.  I ordered it from the ad in a friend's book
because it listed Chick Corea as one of the performers.

I don't have anything good to say about it.  I've put it in my
musical humor collection next to the Temple City Kazoo Orchestra
album.  It's not something to be taken seriously.

I had next to no desire to read the book, having dismissed it as
trivial space opera.  After hearing the album I have even less
desire to read it.

Danny Sharpe
School of ICS
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 17:35:34 pdt
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Lee

Thanks for recommending "Day By Night"!  I loved it.  (This is a
book by Tanith Lee, sort of like Roger Zelazny's Jack of Shadows,
but both more plausible and more speculative)

Paths to topaz don't seem to work for me, so here is some publishing
info which may help:

Don't Bite The Sun - DAW UE1486, 0-87997-486-9, Feb 76
Drinking Saphire Wine - DAW UE1565, 0-87997-565-2, Jan 77

I have one spare copy of Don't Bite The Sun.

-s

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:07:13 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Patricia McKillip

Having just returned from Mythcon XVI (an otherwise BORing
convention, Alas.  Last year's was much better.  Being held on a
midwestern semi- Fundamentalist seminary didn't help it any) at
which PMcK was Guest of Honor, I have a complete listing of all her
books (my comments in []):

The House on Parchment Street (1973) [juvenile ghost adventure.
    fun.]
The Throme of the Erril of Sherill (1973) [pure silliness. lots of
    fun.]
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld (1975) [my favourite. enchantress,
    mythic beasts.]
The Night Gift (1976) [depressing juvenile: kids restore a run-down
    house as a gift for a suicidal friend]
Riddle Master of Hed (1976) [see below]
Heir of Sea and Fire (1977) [the best of the trilogy]
Harpist in the Wind (1979) [this, with last two books, her most
    familiar works.  Spotty, some great stuff, some bad.]
Stepping from the Shadows (1982) [fascinating semi-autobiographical
    story of woman haunted by the powerful and erotic figure of
    the Horned God.]
Moonflash (1984) [her first SF story.  somewhat less than great;
    doesn't take advantage of some of the intersting story
    possibilities she provides herself with.  she should stick to
    fantasy.]

Happy reading, y'all!

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 11:30:18 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Road to Corlay

There's a SEQUEL??  Title?  Date?

Aside from that, comments about the first book.  Ye Gods, how
depressing and beautiful it was!  Appealed to my Celtic melancholy.
With enough strange plot devices to make it interesting.

Yet you say the sequel isn't as good?

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 11:50:54 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Guardians of the Flame (A Flame!)

Whatever bad things Silverbob may have done, you can't ascribe this
turkey to him, nor does he deserve it.

I grant you, I can't give the author's name at the moment (it's
something like Greenbaum?), but he also had an article in Writer's
Digest telling how to make your fantasy stories live.
Unfortunately, he doesn't believe in any of the things he's writing
about, so none of them can "live".

Besides that, the books are trash.  The never-ending D&D game,
indeed!  With obviously contrived devices to make the story
*meaningful* -- growing relationships, dealing with motherhood,
delivering moral lectures (SPOILER immediately follows) to the evil,
egotistical professor who gets them into the game-world in the first
place. (End Spoiler).

Pure garbage, poorly written (but trying REAL HARD to sound good),
taking 4+ books to say what could have been said in half that
number, or better still, not at all.

If you really want decent Adventure Gaming in SF&F, I recommend
Dream Park by Steve Barnes and Larry Niven.  It's about a future
theme park (a la Disneyland) where adventurers participate in
real-time games, with themselves as characters (though they put on
character personae).  Monsters and bad men, strange and interesting
subplots, REAL GODDAMMIT characters (!) not stereotypical college
students (though there are students in it as I recall), mystery,
murder, and (deep breath) the South Sea Cargo Cult!!  Lots of fun,
well written.

Ahem.  Flame off.

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Back to the Future (spoiler)
Date: 30 Jul 85 22:48:26 GMT

A number of articles have appeared recently trying to explain BttF
in terms of multiple timelines.  THIS DOESN'T WORK.  When Marty
starts changing the past, the effect is immediate (although slow) on
what has been brought back -- initially the picture, and eventually
Marty himself.

The only way I can see to reconcile this with the ending is to
assume that the Marty who remembers his father being a wimp, etc.,
will fade into the one who is the result of his intervention.  This
process simply hasn't become noticeable yet at the end of the movie.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 11:37:21-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: What I tell you three times is true

>Does anyone know where "I tell you once, I tell you twice, what I
>tell you three times is true" is from?

   ``Just the place for a Snark!'' the Bellman cried,
       As he landed his crew with care;
     Supporting each man on the top of the tide
       By a finger entwined in his hair.

   ``Just the place for a Snark!  I have said it twice:
       That alone should encourage the crew.
     Just the place for a Snark!  I have said it thrice:
       What I tell you three times is true.''

            Lewis Carroll
            ``The Hunting of the Snark''
            Fit the First

You should all be happy to hear that I've refrained from proving my
point (``The proof is complete if only I've stated it thrice'') by
sending three copies of this message to the net.

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA
UUCP: {decwrl,sun,hplabs}!glacier!evan

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 12:10:42-PDT
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: SF Westerns

Sorry, missed this the first time around.  My favorite SF 'Western'
is John Jake's SIX GUN PLANET.

(YES.  Its the same John Jakes you're thinking of.  He STARTED with
SF and did a fine job; other favorites are _Mention My Name in
Atlantis_ and _On Wheels_.)

Doug (dolson @ eclb.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:15 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Gravity...

Gravity has been a fun topic in SF for years, and a thorn in the
side of physicists too.  Consider this:

No one knows how or why gravity works, it just does.  Albert says it
is because matter warps space, but he still left it as an inherent
property of matter.  Matter just likes to clump together.  This
leaves writers a lot of room to wave hands.

The only way to create gravity is to gather matter together.  There
is only one conversion process to transform gravity into another
form of energy, and that is going downhill, which converts the
gravitational potential into kinetic energy.  Even this is not
really using gravity, because gravity is defined as just storing the
energy used to elevate matter in the first place.  Likewise for all
forms power generated from gravity, like hydroelectric; they are
just manifestations of the energy that was used to raise the medium
in the first place.  In the case of hydro, the sun evaporates the
water which then rises and falls above the dam.  There is no use of
gravity alone.  It requires a medium to work with, i.e. matter.

Many SF stories assume some form of gravitic power or locomotion.
There is no basis for this in science.  No one has a clue how to do
anything even remotely associated with this topic.  Gravity is just
there, and matter is the only thing it affects.  Mind you, most
everything we have is matter, so that's no small effect, but it is
still limited to a single direction (actually it's a vector sum, but
no difference).

I believe HG Wells was one of the first to use the concept of
anti-gravity with his invention of Cavorite.  They used it to fall
up to the moon.  A story rife with scientific inaccuracies, but what
do you expect at the turn of the century?

Antigravity is the simplest form of being able to control the
magnitude and/or direction of the gravity force vector.  A gravitic
drive would be a more complex manifestation of the same principle.

How would it work?  If one could change the direction of the gravity
vector, then travel near massive bodies becomes a snap.  Try
changing the gravity vector out in deep space and see what it gets
you.  Gravity is another of the distance squared drop offs.  It
fades fast.  And we don't know how much is reaching us from the
Milky Way, since we can't go anywhere else and measure.  It might be
that there is a large gravity force throughout the universe, but
since everything is orbiting something, it isn't noticeable to us.  A
gravity drive could be useless anywhere away from a massive body.

Assume we could create a point source of gravity though.  That would
be an awesome ability.  Virtually any sizable force would be useful
(enough to create a pull of over 1/4 g).  Create it reletive to a
ship and that ship will fall along the path intended.  It would be
fairly simple to maneuver if the force could be dynamically
controlled, otherwise it's a planning problem of when to slow down
and where to turn.

A powerful one would make a dandy weapon too.  Larry Niven had
pirates pulling little black holes around with magnets (dump a bunch
of ions into a hole and it can get a mighty powerful charge) to nab
hyperdrive ships.  Imagine if you could create a black hole.  Once
it got enough matter, you could turn off your machine and it would
continue to grow.  Once again you would need matter, but this would
collect it.  Enough power and you might be able to counteract a
black hole (where would you get that much power?) by balancing the
forces.  On a smaller scale, crushing metal would be easy.

At any rate, speculation could run on forever.  There are, at this
time, no answers and a lot of questions.  We should all push for
more experiments along these lines.  Most major experiments have had
to be conducted in the confines of the earth's gravity well.  Now we
are able to escape that, somewhat, with the space shuttle.  We need
a better understanding of this fundamental force if we to ever unify
the field theory, or escape this little ball of dirt we were born
on.

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa
The National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
in sunny Livermore California

------------------------------

From: sesame!slerner@topaz.arpa (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner)
Subject: overpopulation and survival
Date: 30 Jul 85 02:35:31 GMT

> Thus, colonization is an ineffective method of removing population
> pressure.  One thing will work however: internal control, such as
> China's.  I won't go so far as to advocate out-and-out eugenics,
> because that can backfire magnificently (witness Dorsai! and
> "Space Seed"/"The Wrath of Khan").  However, we'd better start
> doing something to curb population pressure, or good ol' Mother
> Nature/Human Nature will grab the ball and run.  Soil depletion in
> the cradle of civilization, Africa.  World War Three.  Famine in
> inner India.  Inner city violence in North America and Europe.
> Read the play Our Town sometime, or the last portion of TEFL, and
> contrast with a current city.  Living without locks on the doors?
> Leaving valubles in an open car?  Walking through Central Park
> *After Dark?* Good Lord, its positively UnAmerican!!!  And there's
> always mass insanity of course.
>
> I'm going to stop before this gets too depressing.  There is one
> thing I can have hope in: once a permanent, self-supporting,
> off-Earth colony is established, Man is unlikely to die out.  The
> catch is that societies don't work towards their own long term
> survival.  Individuals do, and this creates societies as a side
> effect.  Philosophers are more comfortable when they have plenty
> of paper and a free meal ticket.  They don't like standing behind
> a plow.

A quick survey:

How many of you out there would drop *everything* to work on the
chance to establish a self-supporting off-Earth colony, given a
chance to colonize there in exchange?  I mean give up your careers,
your homes, everything!

(I know that it is easier to talk than act, after all I'm still here
:-) )

Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner
{genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner
{cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner
slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 85 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #306
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 306

Today's Topics:

               Books - Rosenberg,
               Music - Hawkwind & More SF and Music,
               Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 13:06:58 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Cc: busch!mte@topaz.ARPA
Subject: That's Joel Rosenberg not Silverberg

Moshe Eliovson writes that Robert Silverberg is the author of
Guardians of the Flame while my edition says it is Joel Rosenberg.
Unless I wrong, Silverberg does not write under any pseudonym.  This
book isn't exactly a transcription of a D&D game rather the story of
6 games players who find themselves transported to a parallel
universe in which the rules of D&D are present but they have since
given up gaming since death is all too real.  Rosenberg holds no
sacred characters and kills one off early in the book.

I got this one accidently from SFBC when I failed to send in the
reply form and was about to send it back when I read the blurb.
Having no previous experience with the Fantasty genre (Well, LOtR,
Pern, Brust and 1st volume of TC series) I looked through it to see
what it was all about.  Soon, I found myself reading it.  At first I
wasn't impressed by Rosenberg's writings (very Heinlein influenced)
because the characters seemed carboard and shallow.  It wasn't
evident until the second story in the series that this shallowness
was intended by Rosenberg and after many adventures the characters
matured and deepened.  Now I am on the third book, the Silver Crown,
and am enjoying myself.  It is not your standard fantasy novel where
good journeys through the evil lands to eradicate the darkness.
Rather the good guys try to wipe-out a system similiar to America
before the Civil War.  Enough said.
                                                Jim Hofmann

------------------------------

Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 16:33:09-GDT
From: Andy Cobley <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Hawkwind's Science Fiction in Music
Cc: alan%dct@ucl-cs.arpa

[I'm forwarding this for a friend (A.Cobley%Dundee@UCL-CS)
 Apologies for the formatting --- Alan Greig <Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA>]

With regards to the discussion of sf in music somebody mentioned
HAWKWIND, being a great HAWKWIND fan I scuttled of to my record
collection to compose a suitable list of HAWKWIND tracks that are
related to sf.This list follows after this preamble, for those of
you who cant be bothered to read it all but would like some
recommended albums to get a taste of what the starship hawkwind is
all about here are three for starts:-

          The  Space ritual.(United Artists)

          This is a double live album recorded in 1973 on there
legendary Space ritual tour.

          Warrior on the edge of time

      Recorded in 1975 this album contains some poems by Michael
Moorcock as well as some of HAWKWIND's best tracks.

          Quark,Strangeness  and Charm.

      This was the last Hawkwind made with poet Bob Calvert, it was
recorded in 1977.Now for the list

X  in  search  of Space.1971

Master of the universe. This track crops up all over the place and
is essentially god (or some creator) telling us how disappointed he
is with our performance so far.The album also came with a booklet
telling the story of the starship Hawkwind but unfortunately because
of time distortions the dates are not in order.

Doremi fasol latido.1972

            Brainstorm.  Possibly sf possibly not, difficult to
          decide because of the obscure and difficult to hear
          lyrics.  Space is deep.A song about how vast space is.
            Down through the night.  I think this ones about
          suspended animation to travel to other stars.
            Lord of light.  I believe that this song is based on a
          book by somebody but i'm not sure who.It seems to be about
          weird goings on on a hill and people joining together ever
          seven years.
            Time we left this world today.  Generally about the bad
          state of the world and its time we left to find a bit of
          peace from the 'thought police'.
            The watcher.  Another song bemoaning the state of the
          world only this time some alien race are threatening to
          blow us all up if we don't clean our act up

The Space Ritual.1973

     This was alive album and contains much of the Doremi fasol
     Latido tracks as well as others.  Side one seems to be the tale
     of a trip (of some sort ) opening with 'Born to go' containing
     lines like :-
          We were born to blaze,
          A new clear way through space,
          A way out of the waste,
          To help the human race.
         This leads into Down through the night (see above) and ends
     with 'The Awakening' which is a poem by Bob Calvert about
     landing at your destination and the awakening from suspended
     animation.
       The black Corridor.This is a poem by Michael Moorcock taken
     from the book of the same name,and is generally about the cold
     unfeelingness of space.
       10 seconds of forever.Another poem, this time relating the
     thoughts of a person during the last ten seconds leading to
     take off.
       Sonic attack.Yet another poem, again by Michael Moorcock
     involving frantic rantings about what to do in the case of a
     Sonic weapons based attack,
          'Do not Panic
          Do not attempt to rescue friends relatives or loved ones
          Think only of your self, only of your self' etc

Warrior on the edge of time.1975

     This album is concerned more with Science Fantasy rather than
     the space based earlier work.
        The wizard blew his horn.A poem by MM again this time
     relating to the calling of a champion to save the earth from
     some disaster or other.
       Magnu.Again a song calling for help but this time for the
     horse MAGNU, a magical beast that can travel not only the
     earthly paths at great speed but other unknown paths as well.
      Standing on the edge.Another MM poem, about the despair of
     some soldiers waiting on the edge of time for something or
     other.
      Spiral Galaxy 28948.An instrumental but mentioned here for its
     title.
      Warriors.This continues on from 'Standing on the edge' but is
     much more positive.
      Kings of speed.Invitation to take a trip on Frank and Beasleys
     rocket ship, step this way lads it aint no lie, we can turn you
     into the human fly.

Astounding sounds, Amazing music.1976

     The only piece of note on this disappointing album is
     'stepenwolf' a rather long song concerning the madness of being
     a werewolf that has a very gothic atmosphere.

Quark,Strangeness and Charm 1977

       Spirit of the age.This is split into two verses, the first
     concerning the plight one space traveler finds himself in when
     his 'android replica' of his girlfriend breaks down and starts
     moaning 'anothers name'.  The second verse concerns a clones
     desire to be an individual.
       Damnation Alley.Based on Roger Zelazny's book tells the tale
     of a post nuclear war trip across america much better than the
     horrendous film supposedly based on the same book.
       Fable of a failed race.In a post nuclear desert legends
      have grown up around the war that caused the wasteland to the
     point of considering the bombs to be the fathers of the race.

PXR5 1978

     Jack of shadows.Again based on a Roger Zelezny book of the same
     name.
      Uncle sam's on mars.Written around the time of he viking
     landing on mars this song bemoans the fact that man can put a
     ship on mars to look for life but cant feed its own people let
     alone control the pollution that threatens to turn earth into a
     parady of mars.
      Infinity.Story of man trapped by a beautiful witch into a
     crystal eternity.
      Robot.Parallels robots to the suburban man of today.

25 years on. 1978

     Psi power.Tells the tale of a person with psi power and his
     rejection of it, 'its like a radio you cant turn off, I'd like
     to live inside a lead lined room and leave all this psi power
     behind.'
      The only ones.This song ties in with the tour concept of a
     factory where people must work their way to the top in order to
     escape and set up a life of there own.
      The age of the Micro Man.Generally about the way people today
     don't look at the whole scene only the details.

Levitation.1980

     Levitation.Song about how great it is to be able to levitate.
      Space chase.Instrumental

Sonic attack .1981
     (contains a rework of the Sonic attack poem (see above))

      Living on a knife edge.The dangers of database's and police
     observance systems
      Coded languages.Lyrics written by Michael Moorcock about a
     race of people able to kill using words (or is it a political
     statement???)
      Disintegrate.short song about blowing up at a pretimed place
     and time.

Church of Hawkwind.1982

     side 1 space
      Angel voices.The voices heard in the command centre of a space
     ship
      Nuclear Drive.Starship lands and takes you away for a ride
      Star cannibal.Race of people use earth(or some other planet )
     as a feeding ground,we being the food.
      The phenomenon of luminosity.This sounds like a recording of
     astronauts talking over a backing track.If any one recognizes
     the following please tell me what mission it was from and what
     they are describing.
          'I'd like to describe what i've got here, i'm near a mass
          of small particles that are lit up like there luminescent,
          i never saw anything like it, there around the moon ,there
          coming by the capsule, a whole galaxy of little stars.'
     Fall of earth city.The earth is completely enclosed by a city,
     mind control is used by the rulers until a ancient tomb is
     opened, bringing chaos and freedom for the subjects of the
     earth.

     Choose your masks.1982.

      Arrival in utopia.Arriving in utopia we find its not all its
     cracked up to be.
      Farenheit 451.Based on the book by Ray bradbury

 For more info get in touch with one of the following ( send stamped
addressed envelope)

     Hawkwind Feedback
     29 Cordon Street,
     Wisbech,
     Cambs,
     PE13 2LW
     England.
     (newsletter)
     or

     Trevor L.Hughes,
     Zephyr,
     PO Box 6
     Wallasey,
     England.
     (specialist in rare records and free newsletter)

     From A.cobley via Alan Grieg.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 13:06:58 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Cc: busch!mte@topaz.ARPA
Subject: Music in SF

Let me put my two cents into the SF-Music discussion.  I read The
Stand by King about 5 years ago and still remember how he wove the
words from rock songs into the story.  For instance, the Led Zep
tune "Going to California" has a line about "There's a lady out
there/plays guitar with flowers in her hair" This corresponded to
the old lady who gathered the forces of good together via their
dreams by playing guitar on her porch.  There was also a line about
someone blowing their nose in this song that corresponded to the
symptoms of the plague that destroys 95% of the population.  Other
songs used for imagery were:

Jungleland - Springsteen ("they reach for a moment and try to make a
STAND/ but they wind up wounded not even dead")

Evil Woman and Peaceful Easy Feeling - Eagles (describes the bride
to be of the Devilman and their mating in the desert)

A couple tunes by America - (can't remember these - anybody else
know?)

I can see for miles - Who (describes the Devilman's ability to
project his eye out and spy on the good guys)

There were lots more - "Stairway to Heaven" was one although I
forget the context.  The use of these songs reminded of the lyrics
in Lord of the Rings which were sung by the good guys as they
marched into the Heart of Darkness.  A lot of these songs were
thinly disguised prophecy and King seemed to be saying a lot of the
Rock songs could be taken as prophecy also.
                                                Jim Hofmann

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 85 17:01:10 EDT
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: why nobody's visited

Remember the classic SF short that theorized that detecting which
stars had habitable planets was such a trick that one extremely
advanced civilization never found it and finally just died out since
there was no point wandering over those vast distances just to find
a habitable world.  I believe they actually sent out a few scouts
but gave up when none of them found anything.  The plot involves a
less advanced race that had stumbled on the secret trying to figure
out what happened to this dead race by reviving individuals from
their remains and quizzing them.

This seems so likely (except it probably isn't possibile to detect
which systems are worth visiting, not merely hard) that I don't find
it the least bit surprising that we haven't been visited.

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Why would 'they' visit us?
Date: 2 Aug 85 14:39:36 GMT

> Seeing as we are out on one of the arms near the edge of a 'small'
> galaxy we probably haven't been visited because we haven't been
> found. Its like why don't people go to small towns way off the
> beaten track. Because the roads either are non-existent or in need
> of repair. If there is a method to FTL travel and it requires a
> receiver at the other end to arrive at.  It could be an airport or
> a port or some sort of machine, maybe even some amount of mass to
> lock onto or a beacon of some sort. Maybe when we get out there we
> will find out that there is a huge interstellar civilization but
> the 'road to SOL' is a bumpy one (maybe a Bob Hope XX Bing Crosby
> XX movie in 2300) and they aren't coming here till we get it
> fixed. When the first slow boat travels get out there and come
> back with the beacon maybe then we will get more travelers coming
> here.

On the other hand, if there is no way to go FTL (which seems at
present more likely) then this argument doesn't make much sense to
me.  If all you can do is visit the nearest few stars then that's
what you'll do.  This will tend to spread a spacefaring race
everywhere.  If you live in Hoboken and can only walk then some
people will walk to Bayonne.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

To: Hank.Walker@cmu-cs-unh.arpa
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 02 Aug 85 17:19:40 PDT (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> The California Aqueduct and Great Wall are visible from the Moon.
> At night, it is quite easy to see civilization's lights from high
> orbit.  Of course by galactic standards, that's a "relatively low
> height."

I didn't think the Great Wall was visible from that high, though I
could certainly be wrong.  I also don't know how much they look like
the artifacts of civilisation, rather than spontaneous occurrences.
You are quite right about the lights at night, though.  I forgot all
about that.  I understand that flaming oil towers in Libya are
easily visible at night, and the Europe and parts of North America
are ablaze.  Although one would have to investigate the source of
the light to see if it were produced by civilisation.  I imagine
similar patterns of light could be seen on highly volcanic planets.

But, as you say, the moon's orbit is at a relatively low height (in
fact a fantastically low height) by galactic standards.  And that
was my main point.  In order for extraterrestrials to visit us, they
first have to find us, which, because of the unbelievably tiny
fraction of the galaxy's -- never mind the universe's -- volume we
occupy, will likely be so extremely difficult as to be virtually
impossible.  Barring, of course, technologies that could give them
effective planet-detection capabilities, and swing the odds
considerably.  But, not having them ourselves, it's hard to say
anything about them.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 85 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #307
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 307

Today's Topics:

             Books - Delany & MacCaffrey & Rosenberg &
                     Tepper & Bar Stories,
             Films - Cocoon  & Lifeforce,
             Television - The Twilight Zone,
             Miscellaneous - Gravity & Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nte-scg!phil@topaz.arpa (Phil Trubey)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren
Date: 31 Jul 85 18:00:31 GMT

> Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting.  It is one of the few
> Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in discust.  Has anyone
> read it all the way through?  Is the ending any better?  Or does
> it just keep rambling on and on.....

I actually did read it all the way through ... mostly because I kept
hoping that I would figure it all out sooner or later.  I didn't.

Has anybody out there read any Delany and figured even some of it
out?  Recently I finished _The Einstein Intersection_ and decided
that at least there was hope for this book ... but it may take
another reading...
                         Phil Trubey
                         Northern Telecom Electronics Ltd.
                         Ottawa, Ontario
Mail path: ...decvax!utcs!bnr-vpa!nte-scg!phil

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 23:29:22 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Music in SF

>From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM
>One story that I haven't seen mentioned is:
>Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?)

May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin.  I will
struggle to do the same.  I concede that McCaffrey may be a 'low
taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters with some
personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly.

I saw an announcement in the last few weeks that a sequel to
*Crystal Singer* will soon be out.  The title has the protagonist's
name in it, so it's *Killashandra [something]*.  In Crystal Singer,
I felt that perhaps we were seeing glimpses of the kind of thing
McCaffrey can do when she's not being cutesy or something.  (And,
please, nobody point to *Moreta* as an example of anything.)

                         Draconically,
                         Paula

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 20:59:12 EDT
From: Melinda Berkman <mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA>
Subject: Guardians of the Flame

As I am sure several people will mention, Robert Silverberg did not
write Guardians of the Flame.  It would be difficult to imagine
Silverberg writing something as non-depressing as this wonderful
series.  Joel Rosenberg takes the credit.  He takes a plot that has
been done horribly several other times, the "game players suddenly
find themselves in the world of the game" shtick, and makes it work,
in the process creating characters that are the most believable
fantasy characters that I've found since Tolkien.  But I don't think
that this series could have been generated from a game-playing
session.  The obsession that motivates the characters simply isn't
strong enough for the basis of the usual D&D campaign.  Players seem
to get restless if they're not saving the world.  Just leading good
safe productive lives, which is the goal of some of the characters
in the series, is hardly the sort of thing that rouses the blood of
weekend adventurers.  Rosenberg's other book, Ties of Blood and
Silver, is also very good.  I cried at the end and then called my
mother and told her the story, leaving out the nasty parts.  You
will have a good feeling when you finish reading this book.

Melinda Berkman

------------------------------

From: chabot@amber.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: Re: Mavin Manyshaped
Date: 3 Aug 85 01:28:22 GMT

>> Has anybody read "The Revenants"?  Is it as worthwhile as the
>> True Game series?
>       While it doesn't really compare with the true game series
> it is still a worthwhile reading.  It is one of those macabre type
> books that is intentionally confusing and mind warping as it deals
> heavily with Deities and artifacts.  I recommend it for Tepper
> fans.

Well, I recommend _The_Revenants_ for anyone.  Moshe missed
mentioning perhaps the most interesting feature: Tepper does
interesting things with gender-- the protagnist is female and male
by turns, unpredictably and uncontrollably.  For a reason.

I had a hard time putting it down.  Don't worry about macabre--it's
not nearly so bad as, say, an Orson Scott Card novel.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar
Date: 2 Aug 85 19:42:36 GMT

wjr@frog.UUCP (Bill Richard) writes:
>> Nope, I am well aware of the _White_Hart_ and am sure there was a
>> precursor in a SFnal or fantasy vein.  If not Cabell, then
>> someone else.  But who??
>>
>> Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)
>       I seem to remember seeing somewhere a book titled something
>like _Tales from Gavagans Bar_ (sp?). I'm not sure of the author(s)
>but it might have been Pohl & Kornbluth. Does this tickle anyones
>memory?

        L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt. The complete list of
books from the SF POLL is quite useful for answering questions like
this.  Please see my latest update to the Poll.

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
{allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

[Moderator's Note:  The SF Poll alluded to in the above message was
too big to put into a digest.  It is available to anyone who can FTP
files from Rutgers.  The file name is T:<SFL>SFPOLL.TXT.  *PLEASE*
do not request me to send it by e-mail as it is way too big.  If you
can't FTP you can't get it.]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 03:05:57 pdt
From: michael@cit-vlsi (Michael Lichter)
Subject: It was a Boojum, you see...

I must say that 'Cocoon' displays some of the fuzziest thinking ever
to hit the silver screen.  I won't complain about Ron Howard's soppy
soppy sentimentality.  I mean, why bother?  Now, we know that it was
not accident that

                  < < < SPOILER ( I guess ) > > >

ILM produced a new set of aliens that carry a big set of floodlights
around with them wherever they go, and look something like a cross
between E.T. and our friends from Close Encounters (with some
Tinkerbell thrown in, too).  I guess what bothered me the most was
that one of these aliens was a voluptuous Tahnee Welch and one a
huge guy (sorry, whoever you are, I don't remember your name) and
yet when they take off their micron-thick skins, they're all the
same size and look exactly the same.  Is she really female?  Do they
have sexes?  Two?  Five?  There are a lot of arbitrary decisions
about what the aliens can and can't do.  They can travel across
stars with their flying saucer (that's right!), yet they can't swoop
down on the sea, pick up a few friends, and ride off into the
sunset.  Their people were stranded in the first place because they
were a `ground crew' and yet there's no ground crew when the rescue
crew takes off.  I'm too disgusted to go on...

Michael Lichter

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  3 Aug 1985 04:58:25-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: LIFEFORCE (review)

This is long overdue. I wanted to give my opinions on LIFEFORCE a
month ago, but wanted some time to think through just what I thought
of it. Besides, I read and enjoyed the novel on which it was based
--- Colin Wilson's THE SPACE VAMPIRES --- back when it first came
out about 10 years ago, and I wanted to re-read it in order to see
how close the movie was to the book.

When I saw it, I was given one of those ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT rating
cards, and I ended up giving the movie a "C". I thought it was an OK
movie, but not as good as I'd hoped.

Wilson, like Whitley Strieber later did in THE HUNGER, gave the
vampire a science fictional rather than a supernatural background.
Again, like Strieber, he had the vampires drain human's life force
rather than blood. Wilson's novel was a mixture of criminal
psychology, sex, alien invasion, vampirism, and a touch of
Lovecraft.

Tobe Hooper (the director of the film) took the superficial aspects
of the novel and made a Grade B monster movie out of it. What is
surprising is that Hooper (and writers Dan O'Bannon and Don Jakoby)
was quite faithful to the ideas, concept, and many of the details of
the novel. Nevertheless, the feel of the film was that of a simple
monster movie.

The story would have been fine, but I had three major quibbles.
First, that Fallada, the Eminent Scientist, constantly leapt to wild
conclusions about the aliens with no evidence to support him. The
novel had such, but the details of his (and Commander Carlsen's)
investigation were skimped over in the movie. Secondly, the vampires
were dispatched in so hackneyed a manner. And thirdly, the whole
Halley's Comet bit was just too topical. What bothered me about it
was that it sets the movie in 1986 rather than some nebulous near
future, which strained my credulity a little too much. Face it, we
just don't have the technology for a manned trip to Halley's Comet.

The acting, other than that of Fallada (played by Frank Finlay ---
Porthos from the Musketeer movies) and Colonel Kane (Peter Firth ---
whose name is familiar, but I can't place him), was abysmal.  Marie
Mayer, who played the lead vampire, wasn't a very good actor, but
she had an unearthly (very appropriately) beauty that was quite
striking.

The special effects were uneven, but when they were good, they were
spectacular! The animation of the corpses (especially the scene
where one of the corpses fills out back into life while his victim
shrivels up into a new corpse) was terrific.

All in all, though I had some problems with it, there was enough in
the film that I liked to feel that my time and money were not
wasted.

P.S. It struck me that the scenes of chaos in London were very
similar to the end scenes in FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH. I wonder
if Hooper meant this as an homage.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: The Devil at Hobbs End?
Date: 2 Aug 85 18:00:20 GMT

> And does anyone else have a small fear induced by TV/books/movies?
> I get the heebie geebies whenever I'm in a dark heavily vegetated
> garden.  I'm afraid Miss Green Fingers from Night Gallery is going
> to sprout up and get me.  Good thing I don't believe it, but you
> try and tell my fear glands that.  And it didn't save the fellow
> in the last paragraph.
> Jon Pugh

The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the
hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a
grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely
remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get rid
of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the
attempt.

I think the thing about it that freaked me out most, was that you
(the viewer) never actually saw the doll move. It would just appear
in certain places, with that twisted little face staring at you.
Very effective.  Very Serling.

Anyone remember a little more about it?

                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:59 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: And another thing...

It is my firm belief that all the energy expended in the Big Bang
has been stored away as gravitational potential and it will all be
converted back into kinetic energy just before the next Big Bang.
There is no other way, if the universe is a closed system like
Albert says.

Jon

------------------------------

To: Hank.Walker@cmu-cs-unh.arpa
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 02 Aug 85 18:45:29 PDT (Fri)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this
> region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you
> have radio telescopes.

I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun, in
any band, I'll be very surprised.  You might double check with your
source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and
possibly Saturn.

There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from the
Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha Centauri)
stars.  I've neither the time nor the inclination to go through the
math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps extremely so, to
resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's.

And remember, as I said in my first posting, to pick up any of
Earth's signals at all other than natural ones (and I don't know
whether there are any) you have to be within about 50 or 60 light
years.  I'm sure no such signals were generated anywhere on Earth
more than 60 years ago, or perhaps 70, when the first crude
recordings were done.  And at 70 light years' radius, those signals,
weak as they were to start with, must have attenuated miserably.  So
I would place 70 light years as the maximum radius at which Earth
could be detected by radio telescopes, if it could be so detected at
all.

Alastair
PS.  Thanks for keeping the discussion going.  This is rather
interesting.

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: who's watching...
Date: 31 Jul 85 02:52:00 GMT

A few other people have suggested why we haven't been contacted by
an alien race (benign, aggressive, or indifferent), so here are my 2
guilders.

For the purpose of discussion, I'll ignore the possibility that
we've been visited and just don't know it.  Although this is likely,
it's also dreadfully boring.  Therefore, let's consider the evidence
that alien intelligence exists.

1) there are only three logical numbers: 0, 1, and infinity.
  As a general rule, there are no 5 legged dolphins.  There may
  evolve one, whereupon he will either die out or propagate his
  breed. It is very unlikely that his mutation will reach a steady
  number and coexist with normal dolphins.  Applying this to
  intelligence: We exist, and consider ourselves intelligent.
  Therefore, either we are the ONLY intelligent race in the galaxy,
  or there are an infinite number of them in an apparently infinite
  number of galaxies in an apparently infinite universe.  The
  suggestion that we are unique as an intelligent race doesn't hold
  water, as intelligence seems to be highly subjective.  Apes are
  intelligent, but they seem very stupid, don't talk, and don't run
  around wearing three-piece suits (maybe they aren't so stupid...
  :-)).  Dolphins seem to have a very high intelligence and may be
  the one other race on the planet which we might be willing to
  admit are self-aware.

2) purely statistical methods.  There are x G-type stars visible
  from Earth in y area.  Extrapolating the number af stars in the
  galaxy based on observation and galactic model, there should be *at
  least* z Earth-like planets in this galaxy.  From there, things
  get shaky.  IF life appears wherever possible, there should be at
  least (z- an arbitrary #) of intelligent races in the galaxy.  No
  bets or suggestions have been made about whether they would be
  spacefaring.  They may exist but not be outside their own solar
  systems.  By that line of logic, in about 500 years, the
  neighborhood wil be getting plum crowded!

The catch is, statistical method only states that within an
arbitrarily large area there will be n intelligent races.  They
might be at "the other end of the {galaxy | spiral arm | universe |
...} for all we know.  They might be running around at sublight
speed.

There is one way to find out where all these other intelligent
species are living -- go there and find them.  Anybody want to come
with me when my Tardis gets out of the shop?

                                        orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Aug 85 1015-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #308
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 308

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bishop & Heinlein & Niven,
                 Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) &
                         Leaving Earth (2 msgs) &
                         Creation Anaheim & 1985 vs 1955

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 85 00:50:52 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: ANCIENT OF DAYS by Michael Bishop

Michael Bishop's new novel ANCIENT OF DAYS (Arbor House, c1985, 354
pp in hardcover) is an extension of his very good novella 'Her
Habiline Husband', originally published in Terry Carr's UNIVERSE 13.
Bishop's Nebula-winning novel NO ENEMY BUT TIME dealt with the
reactions of a modern human being living among his hominid ancestors
in the Pleistocene.  'Husband' and DAYS turn this premise on its
head, asking what would happen if an ancestral hominid suddenly
appeared in our times.  The novel is narrated by Paul Loyd, the
proprietor of the only reputable restaurant in the small town of
Beulah Fork, Georgia.  One fine day, his ex-wife, RuthClaire, calls
him up at work because a prowler is wandering around in the pecan
orchard behind her house.  A small town in Georgia is the last place
anyone would expect the only surviving specimen of Homo Habilis to
make an appearance, and it takes a while for the oddity of the
situation to sink in...  The fun (and eventually the tragedy) begins
when Loyd foolishly gives away the secret, and he, RuthClaire and
their mysterious guest find themselves in the center ring of a
circus of anthropologists, television reporters, gossipy local
townspeople, slick city folk, bible-thumping fundamentalists and the
Klan.  This is some of the funniest material that Bishop has
written, yet it still manages to maintain the sensitivity that marks
his best writing.  The climax of the novel is rather curious -- the
link it draws between our ancestors and ourselves is theological
rather than scientific (so theological, in fact, that I expected to
see a giant aerosol spray can appear...) and leaves much food for
thought.

I did have a few qualms about the story; they are much the same
qualms that I had about ENEMY, and they mostly have to do with
scientific plausibility.  I do thoroughly recommend the book,
though, especially to readers who like well-drawn characters and
enjoy subtle satire.

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: que!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris DeVoney)
Subject: Re: Green Hills of Earth
Date: 3 Aug 85 20:05:06 GMT

>BTW, Does anyone have the complete lyrics of Heinlein's "Green
>Hills of Earth"

I think the story appears in his _Past_Through_Tomorrow_ book which
was published in the U.S. I also think the entire lyrics do not
appear in this story.

Chris DeVoney
Que Corporation
Indianapolis, IN
voice: 317/842-7162
uucp:  ihnp4!inuxc!que!chris

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 12:43:52 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Protector psychology

>From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA:
>Something has been bothering me about . . . Niven's . . .
>Protectors.  To remind people: human-origin Protectors are humans
>infected with a certain virus.  There are . . .  physical changes.
>. .  The mental changes are superintelligence and a desire to
>protect his/her relatives and/or humanity in general.

>However, consider two sets of human protectors mentioned in the
>Known Space series:

>Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of
>the hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the
>population of Home (several million people).  Many of these people
>killed are their relatives.  They do this to preserve humanity in
>general in the long term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order
>of 20 billion people).  They seem to have no major qualms about
>this.

>Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the
>solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent
>destruction.  Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a
>few years, but she refrains because using the system would kill 5%
>of the population.

>So what gives?  Is killing a few million relatives OK but killing a
>few trillion hominids not? Is the kill- to-saved ratio the correct
>parameter to consider?  I don't understand.  Any speculation?

The point you raise is (superficially) valid.  My advice to you:
don't consider migrating to the Belt just yet; you haven't learned
to Think It Through all the way.  %)

When Truesdale and the Brennan Monster leave Sol neighborhood,
Truesdale leaves his Belter lover pregnant.  Therefore,
Truesdale-Protector *knows* he has descendants to Protect, just as
Brennan-Protector does (including him, of course).  During the
course of the voyage (which took several years, you'll recall),
Brennan modified the virus to where it was infective from one
hominid to another, and did not require the vegetable vector.  The
very air of the ship Truesdale traveled in was infected.  And no
precautions were taken to prevent the free exchange of air when he
was rescued, OR when he was landed and taken to the hospital.

It was thus that the people who had rescued him became infected.  It
was merely a matter of *time* until all the humans on Home were
exposed, and those who were not of the proper age were all going to
die, anyway.  Those who were of the proper age needed care during
the incubation stage so that they could survive to help in the
fight.  Thus, all the residents of Home were either going to become
Protectors or die of the effects of the virus anyway.  And all the
newly- changed protectors knew this--that they were effectively
childless protectors already.  As soon as Truesdale explained that
they required a purpose in life, and descendants or surrogates to
provide that purpose, they saw that they must adopt the human race
or starve, and the Pak were coming to find homes for still-living
true-Pak breeders.  Remember at the end of the book, the reminder
that if humanity needed protectors, that the atmosphere of Home was
infected??

As for Teela Brown, her mate was the Ringworlder, so she obviously
never had children during the 20 or so years between the departure
of Louie Wu and his motley crew <sorry, couldn't resist>.  So, she
was doomed to starve from the moment she became infected--unless, of
course, she emotionally accepted surrogate descendants.  Naturally,
she did; wasn't this the world she chose over Earth?  And her
Conan-type over Louis Wu?  That she could not, herself, deliberately
cause the death of her surrogate descendants is quite consistent
with Brennan's behavior.  But, just as Brennan was capable of
arranging things so that Truesdale would infect himself at the
proper time and go out to infect Home so that the majority of his
descendants back in Sol system could be protected, so Teela was
capable of seeing the necessity for the death of an admittedly
large number, but small *percentage* of her surrogate descendants
in order to ensure the survival of the majority.  She could see it
was necessary, and could rig Louis Wu to do it *for* her; she just
couldn't do it *herself*.
                           Protectively,
                           Paula

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 3 Aug 85 18:00:16 GMT

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
>> The California Aqueduct and Great Wall are visible from the Moon.
>> At night, it is quite easy to see civilization's lights from high
>> orbit.  Of course by galactic standards, that's a "relatively low
>> height."
>>
>> I didn't think the Great Wall was visible from that high, though
>> I could certainly be wrong.

I just recently read an article (somewhere) by a shuttle astronaut
(someone - boy, this lack of references sure doesn't substantiate my
story, does it?) that tried looking for the Great Wall once he was
in orbit.

He claimed that he could only find it with great difficulty, and
while purposely looking for it through the shuttles telescopic
cameras.  (The first thing he thought was the Great Wall turned out
to be a river....)

Thought I'd pass that along...
                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 3 Aug 85 18:06:14 GMT

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
>> I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this
>> region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you
>> have radio telescopes.
>  I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun,
>  in any band, I'll be very surprised.  You might double check with
>  your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and
>  possibly Saturn.
>
>  There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from
>  the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha
>  Centauri) stars.  I've neither the time nor the inclination to go
>  through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps
>  extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's.

I'm not expert either, but I am a graduate student in Astronomy, and
Alastair is right, I'm afraid. Jupiter is much brighter in the radio
(or anything!) region than the Earth, and Jupiter would be quite
difficult to resolve from the Sun unless someone out there had VERY
good resolution on his/her/its radio scope. Also, if Jupiter was
resolved separate from the Sun, that would mean someone out there
wanted to check us out rather than give us a casual once-over...does
this mean that we're the subject of someone's research project?

(Incidently, for anyone who cares at all, one of the reasons that
Jupiter is brighter than the earth in the radio region is due to the
internal heat that it generates. A hot, gaseous object like Jupiter
would stand out like a sore thumb next to a cold, lump of slag like
the Earth...)
                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 21:25 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: advanced races

The term "advanced" implies that evolution is a ladder, when it can
be cogently argued (i.e., by Stephen Jay Gould) that it is a tree.
You are not more *advanced* than a duck-billed platypus, you are
just *different*.  Aliens will be looking for something that is
attractive to them, based on their frame of reference; there is no
assurance whatever that their motivations will make any sense to us.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Why Leave Home At All?
Date: 2 Aug 85 17:45:55 GMT

<Both quoted articles cut severely>

Jon Pugh:
>> So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt.  If
>> Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars.

Ron Cain:
>When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the
>people we already have and can establish a homeostasis on this ball
>of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would I
>say we had earned the right to leave.

I find both these attitudes equally annoying.  Of course we can
survive here.  And of course we can go to the stars.  And we should
do both.  By whose standards do we have to "earn" a right to leave?
Our own behavior and ideals are the only standards we have.  If we
run into someone out there with other standards, then we can talk
about how much right we have to leave.  If we wait for utopia first,
we will wait forever.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Why would we go in to space
Date: 03 Aug 85 23:39:16 PDT (Sat)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>



>  Why would we leave this planet?
>  The several possibilities are:
>  1. Exploration
>  2. Colonization
>  3. Escape
>  4. Invitation
>  5. Expansionist (Manifest Destiny)
>  6. Dumb Luck (My favorite)

It seems to me you overlook that most powerful of inducements:
commercial gain.  This, and the opportunity to extend national
influence, were the primary reasons for the various European
empires.  Colonies were usually established so that the "mother"
country could use the colonies' natural resources (and even
establish a trade situation, where the ruling country would refine
and manufacture goods to be bought by the colonies).  Thereby would
a developed country extend and vitalise its economy, while also
extending its political power to remote areas around the world.

Actually colonising, at least adequately to maintain a reasonable
population of colonists, could be a serious problem.  In many or
most cases, there was only a limited number of people willing to go.
There are, of course, great exceptions, like the Puritans driven to
North America by religious persecution; or cases where willingness
was irrelevant, like the original prisoners sent to Botany Bay,
Australia.  But think, for instance, of the various schemes tried by
the French government to get colonists to go to New France, which
promised primarily hard work and murderous winters.  "Les Filles du
Roi" comes prominently to mind.  In most cases it would be the
inveterate traveller, or the ardent explorer, who would go.  For
most people, considerable persuasion would be needed.

> As human history has shown most discoverys of new territory (ie
> the New World ) by early explorers other than Columbus has been
> because people are looking for a better place to live..

As I think you may see from my previous paragraphs, I really don't
agree.  While I think you are wise to except Columbus (who was
looking for a shorter, less expensive route for the Indian-European
spice trade to follow), I think most of the rest of the great
explorers should be exempted as well.  Either, like Columbus, they
had commerce in mind, or, like Magellan and Captain Cook, they
wished to discover more about the world.  Some, like Ponce de Leon,
were after the Fountain of Youth, or the legendary Cathay.
Certainly the population of Britain was not waiting for word from
Cook of a miraculous land to which they could all move, bag and
baggage.  A miraculous land with which they could trade for fabulous
goods and profits was more likely.

Perhaps the need for land to support burgeoning populations will
eventually be foremost in the motives for exploring space.  But the
operation will be fantastically expensive, and having it pay for
itself, at least partially, will be a very attractive idea.  I'm not
being cynical, and I trust that, when there is urgent human need to
be met, commercial considerations will be laid aside until they are
met.  But the fact is that commerce has been the driving force
behind much of the most ambitious exploration so far, and it doesn't
seem realistic to assume that will change.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sat 3 Aug 85 17:34:43-PDT
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: Creation Anaheim 8-31->9-2

The SFCONS.TXT file doesn't list any real useful information for the
upcoming CREATION ANAHEIM at the Disneyland Hotel. Does anyone know
more information about it?

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 21:19 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: 85/55 surprises

Somebody asked what about 1985 would surprise somebody from 1955,
and somebody else responded that it would be that the cold war was
still on.  Well, I just arrived from 1955 (I walked) and the big
surprise is that it is still cold.  I was in the Ground Observor
Corps then (we filled the gaps in the Air Defense Command radar net,
which was more gaps than net) and the question wasn't whether there
was going to be a nuclear war, it was when.  I for one was utterly
astonished to see 1984 roll by.  Incidentally, there was a
now-forgotton Phillip Wylie novel about a mid-1950's nuclear
exchange between the US and the USSR -- anybody remember the name?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Aug 85 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #309
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 309

Today's Topics:

             Books - MacAvoy & Niven & Rite of Passage,
             Films - The Black Cauldron & Back to the Future,
             Music - ELO & Greg Bear & War of the Worlds,
             Miscellaneous - Generation Ships & Visible Civilizations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 85 15:39 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: The Book Of Kells, by R. A. MacAvoy
Cc: lzwi!psc@TOPAZ.ARPA (Paul S. R. Chisholm)

mini-***SPOILER*** for those who care about such things.

          _The_Book_of_Kells_ is R. A. MacAvoy's newest book.  Based
on her previous work, I bought it instantly upon seeing it (which is
rare for me) and I wasn't disappointed.  The story involves a
mysterious carved cross which enables people to move between the
tenth century AD and the present.  The main characters are a
Canadian artist living in (modern) Ireland, a professor of Irish
history of about that time (also in modern Ireland), and various
people of tenth century Ireland, most importantly two survivors of a
Viking massacre, a poet and the daughter of a stone carver.  (The
stone carver carved the cross mentioned above.)
          MacAvoy seems to know the Ireland of the tenth century, by
which I mean the background is convincing (I don't know whether it's
actually correct, but I don't really care either).  I liked the fact
that one of the characters from the present, the artist, has trouble
with old Irish for the whole book.  (A lot of books like this have a
bit where they say "Fortunately, Fred had always been adept at
language, and over the next two nights became fluent in Old High
Swinese," which I've always felt was really stupid.) Some people
will not like that fact that several not too important things are
never explained, but I didn't mind.
          So, all in all, I thought this was a pretty good book.
It's maybe not quite as good as _Rafael_, which was MacAvoy's
previous book, but it's as good as her other stuff.  Certainly
anyone who liked her last book will like this one.  (Incidentally,
this is being marketed as a "Novel," not SF or Fantasy, so you might
have to look in a different section of your local bookstore to find
it.  It comes complete with a really ugly painting inside the front
cover, which looks very "mainstream."  Don't let that put you off.)

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 85 11:52:41 pdt
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Tales in a bar

Larry Niven's story about the light-sail traders comes to mind.  The
barmaid was named Louise.  It can be found at the end of "A Hole in
Space".

-s

------------------------------

Date: Sun 4 Aug 85 03:33:13-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #297

Rite_of_Passage isn't strictly about a generation ship as they are
not going anywhere, just flitting about between planets.

Since I haven't seen a plug for it here in a while: For any one who
has not yet read it, it is the finest science fiction work aimed at
teenagers ever written (well, it's in the top 5 at least).  I first
read it in about sixth grade (I think), and I still reread it a
couple of times a year (it doesn't take as long now).  I've never
heard of anyone (any age) who read it and didn't like it (A genuine
No-Prize (remember them?) to the first person to correctly predict
how many people are going to flood this board with postings rating
RoP somewhere under Slavegirl_of_Gor).

So if you haven't read it, do yourself a favor (it was just
rereleased in paperback so you have no excuse).

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI
UUCP: {decwrl,sun,I-don't-know,I-don't-use-uucp}!glacier!evan

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz.arpa (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Black Cauldron
Date: 31 Jul 85 22:44:51 GMT

chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Disney needed to work harder at the characterizations. With the
>exclusion of the young boy here (also known as the Klutz with the
>Golden Heart) and the funny looking thing called Gurgie (also known
>as the Ewok Clone -- keep an eye on toy stores for this one,
>folks...) I didn't care about anyone in the film.

        Well, not exactly a clone, since the character is in the
books, which came out *long* before Star Wars.(Tho he may not have
been *quite* so cute in the books)

>The 'princess' was especially bad -- she reminded me more of Wendy
>or Princess Leia than anything else, and seemed badly out of place.

        Actually, as I remember the books, the Princess *was/is* a
lot like Princess Leia, so this is probably the place they remain
most faithful to the books!

>One of the fairy folk, also, looked suspiciously like Peter Pan. In
>general, all of the fairy folk drove me up the wall -- I kept
>making snide 'Wendy-bird' comments throughout every scene they were
>in. They were just TOO cute for my taste -- stolen from both "Peter
>Pan" and "Fantasia" simultaneously, they seem to have gotten the
>worst of both...

        This is in fact really unfortunate since the fairie-folk in
the books were more of the "little people"/"leprechaun" type rather
than the cutesy winged sprite type. Oh Welll.  --

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}
   !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 85 15:56:24 PDT (Sunday)
Subject: Back to the Future
From: Couse.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

Bruce Leban writes:
>"One thing I don't understand in either interpretation is the clock
>in the Professor's house (at the beginning of the movie) which has
>a man hanging off the face of a clock.  Where did he get that
>clock?"<<<

The man hanging off the clock was Harold Lloyd, not the Professor.
There was a scene in one of HL's classic silent movies from the '20s
(I don't recall the name or exact year) where he gets stuck hanging
from the hands of a clock.

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ir278@topaz.arpa (Paul Anderson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music
Date: 3 Aug 85 07:08:59 GMT

snoopy@ecrcvax.UUCP (Sebastian Schmitz) writes:
>How about:
>
>Virtually all the tracks on ELO's album "Time"
>

No kidding. The whole album itself is a science fiction story about
a man from 1981 who is taken into the 21st century, and all the
aspects of life there. Jeff Lynne's talent for presenting moods,
ideas, and images with music alone is brought into full light on
this LP. Stop the article here if you don't want to read a summary
of the songs. From start to end:

PROLOGUE - brief sound effects of swishing, roaring, etc to a
        background of cathedral-like music, sounding much like
        waking up in a new dimension or something, while an
        electronic voice tells of a "message from another time".
TWILIGHT - song from someone who, after disorientation (twilight,
        see 'Prologue') finds himself in the future. The verses
        suggest he was brought there ("With your head held high/ And
        your scarlet lies/You came down to me/From the open
        skies","You brought me here but can you take me back
        again?")
YOURS TRULY, 2095 - letter from someone far away from his love,
        telling of a computer he fell in love with because it was
        modeled after her, and its cold reactions.
TICKET TO THE MOON - our hero ain't lucky in love and tries
        escaping to a new life elsewhere; this song is his confused,
        regretful farewell.

THE WAY LIFE'S MEANT TO BE - our hero's amusement and grieving over
        how the world he knew in 1981 had turned out a century later
        (culture shock?) after getting to know the place.
ANOTHER HEART BREAKS - this is a mytic, rhythmic instrumental.  I'm
        not sure whats it about since I rarely listen to it.

RAIN IS FALLING - Basically about wet weather, although some mention
        again of our hero missing his lost love, and the 21st
        century people offering him a way back.
FROM THE END OF THE WORLD - I dont listen to this one much either,
        but seems to be about how hard it is for our hero to
        reach his distant love, and its starting to get to him.
THE LIGHTS GO DOWN - Not a sci-fi song, more about how he's got
        to get back to his love in 1981. The music isn't spacey,
        so I suspect this is supposed to be a song he wrote
        while longing for her. My personal favorite.
HERE IS THE NEWS - a humor song on the turbulent world of 2095.
        A few bad puns.
21st CENTURY MAN - song about how a man from 1981, for all his
        clever adaptions, simply isn't cut out for life in the
        21st century and has to return (and oh what he has to
        tell eveyone when he gets back)
HOLD ON TIGHT (the Coffee song) - this was more designed for
        commercial release (it was their main release from the
        album and became the theme song for the Coffee Achievers
        commercials), but carries the theme that, in the future
        world, or even out of it, really anything is possible
        if you keep faith.
EPILOGUE - first a brief romanticized rendition of "21st century
        man" (as if a farewell reception), into which fade choruses
        of the word "Time", into which fade the same mystic sound
        effects of the Prologue (slipping between dimensions),
        into which a pattering note sequence repeats louder and
        louder and louder and louder and silence all at once,
        snapping the listener back into reality.

I really didn't do the album justice with the above descriptions,
they're pretty weak, but the music really does follow a thematic
story that carries the listener off the world temporarily, then at
the very end snaps him back into it. I recommend it for Sci-fi music
fans. A must-buy for ELO fans.

I would review Mission: a New World from _A_New_World_Record_, but
Steve Stuart already did it better than I ever could.

Paul Anderson
sdcc6!ir278

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1985  03:52 EDT
From: shades <MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: music in sf

i have been waiting and waiting but no one yet has mentioned 'the
infinity concerto' by greg bear.  this is a fine book which uses a
piece of music to transport people to a darker land.  read it and
enjoy.
                          shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds
Date: 5 Aug 85 00:56:16 GMT

>From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
>Sorry to differ with you, jeff, but I thought "War of the Worlds"
>was one of the most nauseating, overdone pieces of tripe I've ever
>heard.  Unfortunately, I had two college roomates who would play
>this garbage ad valium.  They were jerks so I didn't really value
>their opinion anyway and their musical tastes reinforced my
>feelings.
>...  considering all the good groups from that time period (1978)
>who couldn't even get a producer to listen to their music

One of the people featured on the album (and I admit to being in the
same category as your roommates, as I liked the album a lot...still,
having no taste beats being a snob...(-: ) was from the Moody
Blues...I will submit that they were a good group, of some little
fame...

> [ I'm talking about real music - punk ]

 Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...ahem, excuse me...that is the reaction
I sometimes get when people mention that euphemism for noise...(see?
two can be snobs!!)

>The reason you can't find it in a record collector
>store is because record collectors have good taste!

Must be why I always see all those Barry Manilow and Ed Ames records
at record collectors...and I always thought one reason you couldn't
find something at a collectors was because 1) people liked the thing
and didn't sell it to collectors, or 2) people bought the thing as
soon as the collector got it in...

>Nice flaming at you,

...and nice flaming back at you, Jim.  Now go back and finish
listening to the Sex Pistols...

(And yes, I *am* in a nasty mood as I write this...you would be too
if you had to go work on an AI project when the weather was nice
outside!! (-: )

Roy Turner
School of Information and Computer Science
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Generation Ships
Date: 4 Aug 85 18:43:31 GMT

Here is are some additions to the list of Generation Ship stories.

Proxima Centauri                          Murray Leinster
Aniara                                    Harry Martinson
The Space-Born                            E. C. Tubb
The Voyage That Lasted 600 Years          Don Wilcox

                                Kenneth Crist
                                Computer Vision Lab
                                University of Maryland

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 5 Aug 85 02:54:33 GMT

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:

>>I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this
>>region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you
>>have radio telescopes.
>>
>> I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun,
>> in any band, I'll be very surprised.  You might double check with
>> your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and
>> possibly Saturn.
>>
>> There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from
>> the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha
>> Centauri) stars.  I've neither the time nor the inclination to go
>> through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps
>> extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's.
>
>I'm not expert either, but I am a graduate student in Astronomy,
>and Alastair is right, I'm afraid. Jupiter is much brighter in the
>radio (or anything!) region than the Earth, and Jupiter would be
>quite difficult to resolve from the Sun unless someone out there
>had VERY good resolution on his/her/its radio scope. Also, if
>Jupiter was resolved seperate from the Sun, that would mean someone
>out there wanted to check us out rather than give us a casual
>once-over...does this mean that we're the subject of someone's
>research project?
>
> (Incidently, for anyone who cares at all, one of the reasons that
> Jupiter is brighter than the earth in the radio region is due to
> the internal heat that it generates. A hot, gassious object like
> Jupiter would stand out like a sore thumb next to a cold, lump
> of slag like the Earth...)

As I understand it, the things that make the earth stand out are the
following:

 1) It's very small and obviously associated with a star.  This
    makes it clear that whatever it is, it's a planet.

 2) In radio frequencies, it is analomously hot, and NOT on spectral
    lines.

 3) At certain precisely defined frequencies, it is quite bright--
    sometimes. Certain radio telescopes, when operated as radars,
    are very bright.

If you look at the solar system from the right directions, there are
three radio sources: two thermal ones, and something substellar
which has a really weird radio spectrum: it has lines that are not
emission lines, and it is really variable.  If your detectors are
sufficiently sophisticated, you should be able to "see" the earth.
But you have to look at it exactly right.  It occults over a very
long period, and you have to be looking off of emission lines.  This
makes it difficult to find similar sorts of objects, compounded by
the fact that we have only been doing this for about 20 years, so
that only our very nearest neighbors could have noticed this.
Someone on Sirius, however, wouldn't have too much trouble noticing
that our system had something really strange in it.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Aug 85 1003-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #310
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 310

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anderson & Brust & Cherryh & Niven,
            Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF & Aliens (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: moorcock
Date: 05 Aug 85 14:09:01 EDT (Mon)
From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA

> I've just emerged from an extended tour of the works of Michael
> Moorcock (the two Corum trilogies, the Elric series, and the
> Castle Brass series), and I found them all quite enjoyable. The
> story of the 'champion eternal' that bridges across all the
> various series was one I was quite captivated by, and I especially
> liked the way that while any individual series dealt with one
> particular incarnation, fate would, at times (and in what seemed
> to be to be a very logical manner, at all times consistent with
> the 'laws' of that particular plane of the multiverse), throw a
> few of the incarnations from other series into the picture.
>
> I'd like very much to read more sf with this feature (bug? :-))
> ...  can anyone think of what other authors do this, and do it
> well?

The only one I can think of off hand is a Poul Anderson novel "Three
Hearts and Three Lions".  I can recommend this as a good read as
well as being on the theme you're looking for.  It's about a man who
suddenly finds himself in the world of knights and ladies with no
memory about himself.  It seems he has a job to do, and everyone
around knows who he is (but they don't know what he's planning to
do) and they try to either help or hinder him based on what they
know about him and which side they're on.

Have fun.
Nancy Connor
nancy@mit-htvax

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: To reign in hell
Date: 4 Aug 85 21:45:20 GMT

   I walked into my friend's room and I fall upon the new Ace
edition of To Reign in Hell.  "It's by Steven Brust!" I shout at my
friend.  Who's been holding out on me?!, I want to know.  So, I open
the book and after marvelling over Zelazny's five (5) line review
over Yendi I'm impaled on a three page forward by this fantasy
pseudo-deity.
   I was a bit thrown, since I was hoping for one of Steve's more
earthy adventures, like Jhereg or Yendi, but I delved in eagerly
anyway.  Besides, the cover artwork was really nice.
   Unfortunately, I found what seems to be more of a study in
(biblical?) fantasy than the enchanting marvelous adventure that I
was expecting to be served up.  I confess that I'm totally
unfamiliar with the subject matter at hand, which according to
Zelazny is related to two works, namely: Anatole France's Revolt of
the Angels and Taylor Caldwell's Dialogues with the Devil.  This
should give you netlanders a notion of what the book is about if
you've recognized these titles.  (I did not.)
   So I read and as I am not so much into intrigue and masterplots I
begin to wonder... Also, as G-d (Yahweh) is purported to be one of
the "Firstborn" this contradicts a primary foundation for Jewish
belief, which is, G-d was before all, everything, etc.  and that G-d
created the stuff of everything: time, matter, energy of which
everything, including angels are made of.  Now, I don't mean to drag
fantasy into religion or to start a Judeo-Christian controversy here
and I'm sure that wasn't the author's intent either; but I have
temporarily concluded that To Reign in Hell is at least a
semi-religious/philosophical work.
   If I haven't defined my question about the subject matter clearly
enough I apologize.  It may just be that this underlying feeling I
have is due to the contradictory nature to my faith, although I do
find the descriptions of the angels & devils very interesting.  But
before I resume my reading I'd like a clearer definition, perhaps
from the author, concerning this book.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  5 Aug 1985 11:35:03-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: A Review

I just finished this book, and wanted to share my reactions with
you.  I recommend reading it.

A review of Forty Thousand in Gehenna, by C.J.Cherryh

Gehenna is an earthlike planet with few indigenous lifeforms, the
most noteworthy of which is a race of large lizard-like creatures
called calibans, who construct elaborate systems of tunnels and
mounds above and below the planet's surface.  The first human
colonists on Gehenna number nearly 40 thousand, including
scientists, staff, and over 30 thousand cloned workers.  The novel
describes these first colonists and their descendants on this rather
inhospitable planet, after the expected supply ships with
reinforcements fail to arrive.  While the Alliance of planets
undergoes beaurocratic changes, the colony is left to mutate and
adapt to existence on Gehenna without the modern conveniences of
technology and the "benefit" of guidance from the Alliance.  The
book covers 300 years of human development on Gehenna, and the
effects of off-world penetration on the maturing new society.

Cherryh succeeds in describing these years by taking an in-depth
look at one or two characters every few generations -- the result is
a fast-paced novel full of sensitive characters closely bound by the
plot.

The lizards on Gehenna display abilities that come to light only as
they and humans begin to interact in the effort to survive.  They
and the humans grow to accept and depend on one another, and to
influence each other's development.  The novel reevaluates our
definition of an "intelligent species" and even questions our
ability, as human beings, to objectively determine the
"intelligence" of another race or species.  Here's a short exerpt
from an early chapter in the story:

"Calibans had never made domes, her father said, until they saw the
domes of main Camp; but they made them now, and larger and grander,
raised great bald hills on this side and that of the Styx.  Beyond
them were the solid hills, the natural hills; and then the fields
all checkered green and brown; and the rusting knot of giant
machines -- and the tow, and the big, shining tower that caught the
sun and fed power to the little cluster of domes before the
graveyard and the sea..."

Read and enjoy -- I did!

------------------------------

Date: Sun 4 Aug 85 22:31:45-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Protector psychology
To: mcdaniel@UIUCDCSB.ARPA

Quite simple, really.  The Home protectors didn't get the original
form of Tree-of-Life, they got the engineered form developed by
Brennan.  Obviously Brennan mucked around with the DNA to suppress
the bloodline-specific part of the protector makeup.  Since he
doesn't have any descendants on Home this isn't a problem for him.

--Rob

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX
Date: 2 Aug 85 21:03:56 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
                     PART IX: Lack Of Criticism
                          by Davis Tucker

With a few notable exceptions, critical endeavors in the field of
science fiction have been nonexistent. Book reviews tend to be short
and to the point, and there are few literary journals that have
science fiction as their bailiwick. What efforts we have seen have
been notable more for the fact that they have actually been
published, than for what they necessarily contain. Delany's "The
Jewel-Hinged Jaw" and LeGuin's essays are exceptions, and there
certainly are others. But it is interesting to note that virtually
all of the science fiction criticism that has been penned has been
by authors currently working in the field. And due to the
sociological factors of their group, science fiction writers, even
Delany and LeGuin, pull their punches and let people off the
proverbial hook. I have yet to read anything more than mildly
disparaging about Asimov's work by a science fiction author, and I
wonder how that correlates with the fact that he edits one of the
science fiction magazines. We cannot blame the authors who venture
into this field - it's understandable that they will concentrate on
works that they feel showcase the best of science fiction, and that
they would avoid soiling their own nest by attacking someone else's
work, a someone that they meet two or three times a year, possibly.
Many of them may feel that there's quite enough infighting in
science fiction as it is, and the last thing anyone who writes
science fiction wants to do is disparage the field he has chosen. At
best, it's difficult. The vast majority of critical work in the
field is of the "How To" variety, which cannot really be considered
criticism at all.

There's a strong current of the old "He who can, does, he who
cannot, criticizes" mentality in science fiction. For being such an
intellectual genre compared to most, it's an interestingly
anti-intellectual critical milieu. Very often the first response to
adverse criticism is "Let's see you do better". This anti-critical
attitude perhaps can be traced back to the first thirty years of
science fiction, when critics either ignored or laughed at science
fiction. To be brutally frank, science fiction has a large
inferiority complex toward the rest of the literary world, and
evinces a constant need to defend itself, glorify its
accomplishments, attack its supposed enemies, intead of being secure
enough of a field of endeavor to ignore the barbs and catcalls from
outside. Science fiction has always craved legitimacy, and has
rarely been accorded any. Book reviewers of major publications and
newspapers rarely review science fiction novels.  Science fiction is
seen as juvenile and incomplete and insular, with some
justification. Comparing it to other genre literature, such as
mysteries, we find that although they both share insularity and an
often narrow appeal, science fiction is less bounded by genre
requirements than any other, and therefore should arguably have a
greater attraction for critical attempts. Unfortunately, this is not
the case.

Has science fiction built such a wall around itself that no
self-respecting critic will vault over it? Has the field grown so
inbred and chummy and self-congratulatory that virtually no critics
have emerged from it? I don't know the answer. I hope not, but I
have nagging suspicions. By no means am I saying that science
fiction needs literary criticism to be legitimized; although that is
definitely a possibility. But criticism is important to any artform
- it provides a framework for appreciation, it provides a means of
greater understanding, and it most definitely provides practicioners
with guideposts and arguments and avenues and explanations. Authors
have serious problems with critics, and with the whole idea of
criticism being a valid field of literature. There is tension and
not a small amount of acrimony between writers and critics, and it
will always be there and should always be there. Authors often
forget that it's better to be terribly excoriated in print than
simply ignored, that anything is preferable to being overlooked.
Just as critics often forget that they have as much responsiblity to
their craft as authors do to theirs, perhaps more. But science
fiction, for one reason or another, is totally dominated by the
author mentality, just as Broadway plays are generally dominated by
the critic mentality.  There's the science fiction paraphrase of the
Republican's 11th Commandment - "Thou shalt not speak ill of thou
fellow authors". Which is understandable.  But there's no group of
people who fill in the void, who provide their readership with
accurate insights into the work behind the work, who tell readers
what they can expect, and why or why not this work is any good.

It will immediately be pointed out that virtually all of the science
fiction magazines have book review columns. Besides the fact that
these columns are written by authors, not critics, and the fact that
they rarely run to any length whatsoever, it must be remembered that
book reviews are the mere beginnings of critical effort. The baby's
first steps. And I've never read a science fiction book review which
remotely approached the caliber of the New York Times Book Review,
with the exception of Delany's review of Thomas Disch's "Angouleme",
a semiotic study more than a review, and Damon Knight on Blish's
"Common Time". Science fiction fans should welcome critical effort
in the field, if only because it makes authors take notice, and
realize that what they are doing is being looked at with an
objective eye. Even if you never read a critical essay in your life,
you will benefit from the effect that it has on authors, publishers,
and others who look at science fiction with different eyes. The
strident defensiveness that characterizes science fiction's
collective attitude toward criticism must give way to welcome, and
eager courtship. There is no need to remain outside the pale, there
is no reason why science fiction must enforce upon itself the
ostracism it once endured unwillingly.

This isn't just one man's opinion. Many important people in the
field have stated as much, in some cases much more strongly. At any
rate, tune in next week for the final installment: "THE PROBLEMS OF
SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART X: A Prescription For The Future".

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 85 09:56 EDT
From: Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: The Aliens are coming!

A couple of years ago The Praire Home Companion radio show had a
'drama' about aliens invading earth.  It seems that the aliens had
figured the best way to infiltrate the most households and take over
the humans living there, was to disguise themselves as a common
household object.  Since the invasion was a winter campaign, the
aliens diguised themselves as needles on christmas trees.  Everyone
knows how the needles drop off and seem to find their way to
every room in the house.  Now no explanation was given for the
invasion.  Perhaps the aliens were afraid Santa Claus wouldn't be
able to find them on their space ships.  But I have a theory
about secret countermeasures taken by the government.  I think
that the government found out about these shape-changing aliens
and, in fear of the effect this could have on the economic scene,
instigated an insidious PR campaign to introduce ACT's (artificial
Christmas Trees) into Christmas tradition.  Furthermore, I believe
that these ACT's come equiped with sophisticated equipment
designed to detect and destroy these clever aliens.  Omygosh! I
just had a thought!  Do you think that the recent trend toward
greenry in every nook and cranny from the drycleaners to MacDonald's
could be a counter-countermeasure by the aliens???  I have a
diffenbachia on my desk and I think its looking at ...

Jessie (ops@ncsc) (we think)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 85 08:46 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens

Any alien in the solar system will notice us on Earth!!! You assume
that someone looking at earth will be looking at the dayside! Try
looking at the nightside sometime! (Or a picture if you don't have a
shuttle ticket :-) It is very easy to see that something is
happening on Earth if you look at a night-time picture of North
America; you can identify most of the major population centers by
the size and approximate location of the blob of light that sits
there. It is also real good confirmation of the idea of light
population.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 85 13:47:03 EDT
From: OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: local vs. imported meat for aliens

I should probably let this topic die a natural (?) death - But
something seems to have been overlooked.  Assuming they couldn't
find an adequate butcher nearer home, taking only enough humans for
breeding poses its own problems.  Raising cattle (bovine, human,
rabbit, or otherwise) not only takes a lot of space - but you also
have to feed them - and the whole point was that the aliens were
short of food.  (Now if humans were a gourmet item and not a staple
- that would change things.

Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Aug 85 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #311
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 311

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anderson & McIntosh & Norton &
                       Story Similarities,
               Films - Five Million Years to Earth &
                       The Haunting of Julia,
               Miscellaneous - Gravity & Ewoks &
                       Technology vs Magic &
                       Visible Civilization &
                       Overpopulation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 11:51 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: D&D in SF

There was a story by Poul Anderson called The Saturn Game in which a
group of explorers gets just a bit too caught up in the game...

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 85 15:51:00 PDT
From: IAGVAX::INTERRANTE <interrante@iagvax.decnet>
Subject: Wyndham novel "Re-Birth"

> From: infopro!david@topaz.arpa (David Fiedler)
> Jefferson Airplane fanatics may or may not know that most of the
> lyrics from the song "Crown of Creation" were taken from the
> wonderful John Wyndham novel "Re-Birth".

I haven't ever heard of "Re-Birth," but I read a novel by Mr. ?
McIntosh, "Flight from Rebirth." I liked it enough to reread it
once. It seems to be an expansion of a story in one of Issac
Asimov's Hugo Winners anthologies.  Suppose you could be reborn as a
young child if you were valuable enough to society. What if you
DIDN'T want to be reborn, but society insisted that you did? That's
what one man is trying to escape. Any similarities with the Wyndham
novel?

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 85 13:04:36 PDT (Monday)
From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy?

brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  writes:
>I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if
>anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were
>derived from actual games.

I read a book of this sort a few years ago: "Quag Keep" by Andre
Norton.  the forward to the book explained that Norton actually
played in a campaign run by Gary Gygax, and then turned the
adventure into a fantasy novel.  Unfortunately, the book is trash.
It is very dry reading, and quite confusing to a real D&D player.
The book was apparently based on the conflict of Law vs. Chaos
philosophy of basic D&D, rather than the more playable Good/
Evil-Law/Chaos philosophy of advanced D&D.  I considered "Quag Keep"
a waste of time and money, but you may find it interesting as an
example of how NOT to generate fantasy.

Josh Susser
<Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 15:05:12 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Spies, Common Ancestry, Blind Luck

How many stories I have heard of authors on opposite sides of the
continent coming up with the same story simultaneously!  And mostly
it is, in fact, blind luck.  As for the Gremlins/Black Cauldron
beastie similarity, I've seen neither of them (though the gremlins
themselves are familier to anyone who walks through a toy store
these days), but I would guess blind luck on this one too.

It's happened to me, as well.  Dave Hartwell at Tor decided not to
take a novel I submitted to him, due to a similarity between it and
The Summer Tree, which he will be publishing in America.  The recent
posting which mentioned it says it has five protagonists; I'd be
interested to see how many other similarities there are.  Would the
poster be kind enough to post a review when he's done with it?

Yours in confusion,

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: "Five Million Years to Earth" (film)
Date: 5 Aug 85 17:34:32 GMT

mooremj@EGLIN-VAX writes:
>"5M Years" is one of the best and scariest low-budget SF films of
>all time.  I highly recommend it -- but not alone or late at night.

I saw it (about a week ago) alone AND late at night.  I think that
may be the best way to see it if you really want to get the full
effect.  (Though the commercials did detract somewhat from the
continuity.)  Not one of my all-time favorite movies, but definitely
worth seeing.
                        the Shadow
                        ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                        UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Haunting of Julia, pII
Date: 5 Aug 85 22:29:00 GMT

I have a question for the net.movie and net.sf-people. Please mail
me a response....

this weekend, I saw a very good ghost movie called "The Haunting of
Julia" starring Mia Farrow. At the end of the movie, while the
credits were rolling, the local announcer said something about a
second part to this movie, but I cannot find any other references to
"The Haunting of Julia, Part II"

Anyone out there know anything about this?

                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: decwrl!daemon@topaz.arpa (The devil himself)
Subject: a 'matter' of 'weighty' concern ...
Date: 5 Aug 85 03:08:17 GMT

On the subject of gravity ... I tend to 'gravitate' (yeah, yeah ...
don't flame me too badly for that horrid pun) toward stories on
black holes. a collection edited by Jerry Pournelle, called,
appropriately, _Black_Holes_, Had a few stores that were simply
amazing. they're all fairly short, so to elucidate on their content
would be to give the 'hole' show away.

Robert Forward's _Dragon's_Egg_ was also a work that gave careful
consideration to the 'potential' of such a concept. I found his
treatment of the subject quite out of the mainstream, refreshing,
and very well thought out... what I would expect from a physics-type
doctor writing sci-fi. maybe someone should convice Stephen Hawking
to write some sci-fi - *that* would be scary.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  5 Aug 1985 08:44:43-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Not afraid to admit I like Ewoks

I've read so many messages about Ewoks and other "cute" characters
in Science Fiction movies, that I just have to respond.  Let's face
it, the Ewoks had to be small and cute in the Empire Strikes Back.
They were, politically, the indigenous species of the planet, and
the Rebellion needed them to help fight the Stormtroopers.  Do you
think that any indigenous species that looked like a robot could
have tied up Skywalker & Co. and then negotiated to help destroy the
Imperial troops? I don't think that would have been believable.  But
as the indigenous species, it is quite likely that their initial
reaction to the presence of Luke & Co. would be initially hostile.
Somehow, the Ewoks had to keep the sympathy of the audience even
while they threatened to eat "Our Hero."  The image of the Ewok
served the purpose, and I think it was quite an appropriate solution
to the problem, considering the fact that the Star Wars movies seem
to have been made for the 10- to 15-year-old audience range.

Let's talk about appearances, shall we?  I want to flame off about
people who assume that Cute and Fuzzy is weak and powerless, while
Ugly and Scaly always indicates an ugly and dangerous person.  Lots
of science fiction movies try to show the fallacy of this
assumption, but few make a point of proving it ain't so.  The Last
Starfight succeeded in making the audience "love" a lizard-like
alien -- I think that was the movie's most original idea.  But the
movies don't go far enough.  Sure, some aliens might be ugly, but
friendly and some might be cute, but dangerous.  But that's not the
point, is it?  What we as a species (Homo Spaciens, intentional
misspelling) need is more emphasis on understanding and compassion
if we want to survive.  Let's face it, we consider ourselves
"technologically advanced" but we aren't likely to last another
millenium unless we develop our innate abilities to communicate,
care, serve, trust, love, and cooperate to the best interest of all
races and species.

It's clear to me why no other intelligent species have come to Earth
and made their presence known -- just watch Starman if you need
clarification.  So far, technology has proven to be the toy of the
powerful, ambitious, and heartless.  Each of us must react to the
ever-widened influence of technology in our own way.  But to use a
heavy sword, you have to build powerful muscles and develop mental
discipline.  Similarly, we cannot effectively wield the forces of
technology until our hearts and minds learn how to control and use
technology for the good of all humankind, and, if there are others
like us, for the good of all species.  The Ewoks, having proven
their ability to change their initial reaction to the presence of
aliens, and in their courageous struggle to help Luke kill off the
stormtroopers, have one up on the human race.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 11:37:54 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Deep Question(s) [Magic & Technology]

> From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
> we were discussing the interface between technology/science and
> magic.  The only novel we could come up with that really treated
> the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one
> through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ?  (I have
> forgotten)

>From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
>Drat, I can't remember either!  I think it is either John Brunner
>or Gordon Dickson, but I wouldn't bet the rent.

I'm glad.  As someone else has said, it was Poul Anderson.  I'd
simply like to add, in this vein, try his *Queen of Air and
Darkness*.  Anderson has always had a deft touch with fantasy.  I
might also point out that this is one of many works by Anderson that
contains music as an integral part of the story.  There's a
beautiful lyric in this that is something about "the dance weaves
under the firethorn" or something like that.

>> Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein.
>Saberhagen's "Empire of the East" trilogy

I'd like to add my endorsement of these books, which I haven't seen
in years.  They are exceptionally good at creating the atmosphere of
oppression and squalor, without boring on and revolting you
needlessly.  I like them best of all I've ever read by Saberhagen.

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 5 Aug 85 22:51:56 GMT

To everyone else out there: I apologize if this should be in
net.astro, and if it carries on I'll move it there...

For those that are interested,....

>>>I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this
>>>region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you
>>>have radio telescopes.
>>
>>I'm not expert either, but I am a graduate student in Astronomy,
>>and Alastair is right, I'm afraid. Jupiter is much brighter in the
>>radio (or anything!) region than the Earth, and Jupiter would be
>>quite difficult to resolve from the Sun unless someone out there
>>had VERY good resolution on his/her/its radio scope.

To which Charlie Wingate responds:

> As I understand it, the things that make the earth stand out are
> the following:
>  1) It's very small and obviously associated with a star.  This
>     makes it clear that whatever it is, it's a planet.

There's a couple problems with this argument: first, the earth is
EXTREMELY close to the sun. Even though the sun is a standard so-so
star, it would take extremely fine resolution on a radio scope to
separate the angular distance. Even if they could do that, the earth
radiates so little heat (virtually its only radio source, the stuff
we generate ourselves doesn't count, I'm afraid...)  that it would
be lost in the heat of the sun...again, seperation is a problem.

OK...giving the aliens the benifit of the doubt: lets say they've
taken the trouble to determine that there is a small, cold body
orbiting the sun...it could be anything. True, it could be a
planet...but it also could be a asteroid, comet, or any other rocky
body...and, it doesn't even have to be a body...it could be an
amalgamation of bodies...

> 2) In radio frequencies, it is analomously hot, and NOT on
>    spectral lines.

I'm afraid this isn't quite right. The earth, in fact the solar
system, is amazingly boring. It is a rock that generates its own
internal heat (slowly) by nuclear decay of material in the core. The
rest of the heat is reflected. If you are refering to any radio
noise that humans make, we aren't very spectacular either. Our
signals, even if they weren't hampered by the atmosphere, solar
winds, noise from the sun, etc, would attenuate before they got very
far away from us at all.

>  3) At certain precisely defined frequencies, it is quite bright--
>     sometimes. Certain radio telescopes, when operated as radars,
>     are very bright.

? I missed your point... ?

> If you look at the solar system from the right directions, there
> are three radio sources: two thermal ones, and something
> substellar which has a really weird radio spectrum: it has lines
> that are not emission lines, and it is really variable.  If your
> detectors are sufficiently sophisticated, you should be able to
> "see" the earth.  But you have to look at it exactly right.  It
> occults over a very long period, and you have to be looking off of
> emission lines.  This makes it difficult to find similar sorts of
> objects, compounded by the fact that we have only been doing this
> for about 20 years, so that only our very nearest neighbors could
> have noticed this.  Someone on Sirius, however, wouldn't have too
> much trouble noticing that our system had something really strange
> in it.

Sorry, Charley, but I really have to "stick by my guns" on this one.
Detecting planets from even NEARBY solar systems is, at best, a
painstaking long complicated process. (You could always argue that
advanced civilizations have really nifty, spifo technology that
could pick us out in a sec, but that is a moot point, since what we
are talking about is whether or not the earth is an OBVIOUS object -
at least that's what I'm talking about...) If it were that easy, we
would have done it...the fact is, after studying a star a mere 6 lys
away (Barnard's star), the best anyone could come up with is a
"maybe." There may be 2 large gas bodies in orbit nearby, but it may
just be an error in the way the plates were taken.  And even these
"gas bodies" which should be hot thermal objects, cannot be resolved
from the glare fo a pathetic star like Barnard's.

The closest we have ever come to finding other planets thermally,
was with the IRAS satellite. It detected "bodies" moving around the
star Vega. (26 lys distance.) However, that is probably a solar
system in FORMATION, since those "bodies" are glowing at amazingly
high temperatures. (Much higher than Jupiter...)

I guess my point is, unless someone out there has some pretty
sophisticated technology...we are quite invisible...at least,
ordinary...you couldn't even get a good Master's Thesis out of us.

                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Re: overpopulation and survival
Date: 3 Aug 85 02:12:00 GMT

What would you describe as 'everything.'  Home, job, and material
possessions happen to rate rather low on my list.  Friends, on the
other hand, are something I value very highly.  That's why my Tardis
is still in the shop.  I'm trying to get it enlarged :-) Quick
trivia question: How many rooms are there in the Tardis?  How many
have been shown in the TV show?
                                orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Aug 85 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #312
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 312

Today's Topics:

                Books - Moorcock & Tepper,
                Films - Five Million Years to Earth,
                Miscellaneous - Hogweed & Yesterday's Tomorrows &
                        Leaving Home (2 msgs) & Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 07:45:10-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Hawkwind

Moorcock's "Jerry Cornelius" stories were published in New Worlds in 
1969-70.  The first, A Cure For Cancer, was published in March 1969, 
and so mush have been written no later than 1968, which ties in well 
with 'Hawkwind'

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: warwick!simon@topaz.arpa (Simon Forth)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper.
Date: 2 Aug 85 15:07:47 GMT

throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:
>I just bought and read the second of the Mavin Manyshaped novels.
>Has anybody read "The Revenants"?  Is it as worthwhile as the True
>Game series?

I have read the revenants and I would say that it is a book that is
as good as the True game books, though it has a very different theme
and has very little in common with the True Game books. If you want
to get a different look at the works of Sheri Tepper then read The
Revenants.

Without giving anything away I can say that unlike the True game
books the story has a number (7 I think ) main characters, and If my
memory serves me the story is told from the point of each of the
Main characters for part of the time.  This is a book that I would
recommend, though dont expect another True Game book.

Simon Forth
Dept of Computing. University of Warwick. Coventry CV4 7AL. UK
{various backbone sites in US}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!simon

------------------------------

Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 07:45:10-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Hobbs

The film with 'Hobbs End' was originally called

        Quatermass and the Pit

the awful title 5 Million Years to Earth was a US atrocity.  The film
stars Peter Cushing as Prof. Quatermass, and involves the discovery,
during part of the (seemingly perpetual) construction of more London
Underground lines (that's "subway" over here) of a Martian spaceship
and some peculiar humanoid skeletons...

The film was the subject of one of the better late Goon Show satires,
called Seagoon and the Pit:

  "Good grief, Seagoon, this skull is two million years old!"

  "Happy Birthday to you
   Happy Birthday to you
   Happy Birthday dear sku-ul..."

Like the two previous Quatermass stories, it was written by Nigel 
Kneale.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 07:45:10-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Hogweed...

The Giant Hogweed, marching inexorably up the Thames Valley spreading
chaos in its wake, was about 98% silly-season news reporting and 2%
genuine plant.  It is indeed large, and about as nasty as, say, poison
ivy here.

Where the wild ones came from I don't know, but specimens had been 
kept at the Royal Botanical Gardens, at Kew, for quite a long time.  I
saw them there in the early '70s, carefully cordoned off.  The old 
gardener/attendant said that, as far as he could recall, nobody had 
paid them any attention before the newspaper stories, "though that 
novelist Mr Wells used to come and look at them sometimes".

They didn't walk, and certainly didn't bite people's heads off (but 
then Wyndham's triffids didn't do the latter)

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john)
Subject: Re: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Fu
Date: 2 Aug 85 16:12:00 GMT

  The Smithsonian has a traveling exihibit called "Yesterdays
Tommorrows" that shows what designers and writers in the past
thought today would be like. The biggest mistake seen consistently
through all the exhibits was that they all showed families with the
husband working outside the home and the wife as a housekeeper.
Granted the husband would normally commute via a personel helicycle
and the wife had robot servants but nobody could imagine a career
woman working outside the home.

  They were also pretty far off on the effects of computers.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 12:50 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Why leave home?  We all must sometime...

I thank Ron Cain for pointing out the need for mankind to grow up,
but I suspect that many of us realize our imperfections are
overwhelming us.  We need to be able to turn this wonderful world
into the paradise that is was before we started to pollute it into a
scum planet.  I do not intend to abandon this planet (heck, I'm not
even going to be able to leave, there's no room for hackers on the
shuttle), nor do I think it possible to live without the earth for
eons to come.

Ron considers the harnessing of energy to be our greatest concern
and he is correct in a limited sense (but then isn't everything?).
With an abundant source and control of energy we should be able to
grow enough food and distribute it to save all the priceless lives
that are going to waste every day.  With enough energy we can turn
around the rise of pollution and make the water clean again.  With
energy we can leave home for a vacation or for good, and someone
will want to.  Heck I want to go on vacation to Saturn right now.  A
problem may be that if we can turn our beautiful little ball of dirt
into the paradise we all love, then who is going to leave?  There is
enough humanity to pursue the exploration and colonization of space
*and* to work on fixing up our home *and* to solve every
technological problem we can.

Look at the duplication going on in the space program!  The USSR is
doing things that we have done and vice versa.  If one of us would
give up that task and settle down to solving the hunger problem, we
could lick it.  But we are too immature and worried about the other
guy.

So we end up fighting and fretting and carrying on discussions like
this one.  But what can we do?  It takes a great number of people to
achieve any real results these days, although the individual effort
now seems to come from the organizers.  A Nobel award to the guy who
organized Live Aid?  He deserves it, but even more so do the
millions who contributed.  Can the same thing be done for pollution
before it kills us all?

There is no way we can abandon the earth.  We cannot take all the
people off planet no matter what.  I am speaking of exporting an
active gene pool.  This activity itself will assist us to make our
world what it should be.  We can remove the polluting activities to
places that are less noticable (can you pollute an asteroid?) and
bring only the benefits to our home.  I suspect that the only safe
and efficient place to generate the energy we need will be in space,
and it will be a coexistance of space living and planet living that
will keep mankind alive over the eons.  Like Robert Heinlein said,
the earth is too fragile a basket for us to keep all our eggs in.

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

------------------------------

From: warwick!simon@topaz.arpa (Simon Forth)
Subject: Re: generation ships
Date: 5 Aug 85 15:09:17 GMT

I dont know whether this is relevant to the current discussion but I
believe I have read somewhere that if a species is going to
populate the galaxy using slower that light travel STL, that you get
into severe difficulties due to population growth.

Example.  Take a species that has STL travel and that it has decided
to colonize Space. Then if you assume that the species tries to get
a uniform population density and that the species is growing with an
exponential growth rate (I think that's the right growth rate?).  If
you say that the population is evenly distributed throughout a
sphere in space then due to the growth rate of population the sphere
will have to expand at a growing rate to keep population density
constant. At some point the sphere will have to expand at a speed
faster than that of light.

You would probably find this a problem eventually if you had FTL
travel that took a finite time, at some time in the future your
population density would start growing as you could not expand your
frontiers fast enough.

This is not counting the problem of moving excess population from
the centre of your space to the edge, when the edge is receding .

if you want to read a book that deals with the population explosion
problem then read the _cageworld_ books by Colin Kapp.

Thats enough from me.

Simon Forth
Dept of Computing. University of Warwick. Coventry CV4 7AL. UK
{various backbone sites in US}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!simon

------------------------------

Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 18:38:04-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Cuteness -and- Why would aliens come to visit us?

With these two discussions going on at the same time, I'm surprised
no one has made the obvious connection:

   Human beings are so unbearably cute that a visit to this arm of
   the Galaxy wouldn't be complete without taking one of us home as
   a souvenir....

> From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford (Jeff Rogers)
> Might [aliens] take us as slaves, forcing us to create artworks
> for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the kidnapped humans
> create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering contributes to great
> art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the aliens know the
> difference?

Why not just take the art itself?  It's much more difficult to get a
work of art out of a living artist than out of a museum.  (Assuming
you have sufficiently advanced technology to make our theft
prevention systems a joke.)  Even if they did want to take art, I
think it likely that their idea of art is entirely different than
ours.  Maybe their idea of art is a tomato soup carton.  As if
anyone could think that was art! [:-] Or maybe they would rather
have one of those T-shirts that says "My fluxmate went to Earth and
all I got was this lousy T-shirt."

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 6 Aug 85 12:19:22 GMT

demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes:
>> As I understand it, the things that make the earth stand out are
>> the following:
>>  1) It's very small and obviously associated with a star.  This
>>     makes it clear that whatever it is, it's a planet.
>There's a couple problems with this argument: first, the earth is
>EXTREMELY close to the sun. Even though the sun is a standard so-so
>star, it would take extremely fine resolution on a radio scope to
>separate the angular distance. Even if they could do that, the
>earth radiates so little heat (virtually its only radio source, the
>stuff we generate ourselves doesn't count, I'm afraid...)  that it
>would be lost in the heat of the sun...again, separation is a
>problem.

You don't have to resolve it out separately.  Assuming for the
moment that Earth's radio emissions (human-generated) are at all
visible, what will be seen is a star with a weird secondary which is
occulted once a year (in the right direction, of course).  This
alone, I admit, would not make it evident that the secondary was a
planet.  But wait....

>>  2) In radio frequencies, it is analomously hot, and NOT on
>>     spectral lines.
>I'm afraid this isn't quite right. The earth, in fact the solar
>system, is amazingly boring. It is a rock that generates its own
>internal heat (slowly) by nuclear decay of material in the core.
>The rest of the heat is reflected. If you are refering to any radio
>noise that humans make, we aren't very spectacular either. Our
>signals, even if they weren't hampered by the atmosphere, solar
>winds, noise from the sun, etc, would attenuate before they got
>very far away from us at all.

Now wait a minute.  This last line is totally off base.  We seem to
be quite capable of tossing useful radio signals around the solar
system, in spite of using inferior equipment and in spite of solar
noise.  Once you get clear of the atmosphere, the attenuation works
against the noise sources too.

>>  3) At certain precisely defined frequencies, it is quite bright
>>     sometimes.
>>     Certain radio telescopes, when operated as radars, are very
>>     bright.
>? I missed your point... ?

The point is that along the line of sight of these beams, the earth
appears VERY bright.  Bright enough to be used as a radar at
interplanetary distances (where the range degradation is FOURTH
power).  Probability is against detecting such a beam, but, hey, I
never said detection was LIKELY.

>> If you look at the solar system from the right directions, there
>> are three radio sources: two thermal ones, and something
>> substellar which has a really weird radio spectrum: it has lines
>> that are not emission lines, and it is really variable.  If your
>> detectors are sufficiently sophisticated, you should be able to
>> "see" the earth.  But you have to look at it exactly right.  It
>> occults over a very long period, and you have to be looking off
>> of emission lines.  This makes it difficult to find similar sorts
>> of objects, compounded by the fact that we have only been doing
>> this for about 20 years, so that only our very nearest neighbors
>> could have noticed this.  Someone on Sirius, however, wouldn't
>> have too much trouble noticing that our system had something
>> really strange in it.
>Sorry, Charley, but I really have to "stick by my guns" on this
>one.  Detecting planets from even NEARBY solar systems is, at best,
>a painstaking long complicated process. (You could always argue
>that advanced civilizations have really nifty, spifo technology
>that could pick us out in a sec, but that is a moot point, since
>what we are talking about is whether or not the earth is an OBVIOUS
>object - at least that's what I'm talking about...) If it were that
>easy, we would have done it...the fact is, after studying a star a
>mere 6 lys away (Barnard's star), the best anyone could come up
>with is a "maybe." There may be 2 large gas bodies in orbit nearby,
>but it may just be an error in the way the plates were taken.  And
>even these "gas bodies" which should be hot thermal objects, cannot
>be resolved from the glare fo a pathetic star like Barnard's.

At IR wavelengths, yes.  But my point is that you have to look at
the Sun IN THE RIGHT WAY.  It's not technologically very difficult--
it does require a lot of luck.  Radio telescopy as we practice it
now would never find such an object, because we concentrate on
emission lines.  Human radio transmissions lie off such lines.

>The closest we have ever come to finding other planets thermally,
>was with the IRAS satellite. It detected "bodies" moving around the
>star Vega. (26 lys distance.) However, that is probably a solar
>system in FORMATION, since those "bodies" are glowing at amazingly
>high temperatures. (Much higher than Jupiter...)

Actually, it was considered to try and look for objects fitting the
appropriate description, about ten years ago.  (Remember SETI?)  As
I recall, what killed the thing was the immense improbability of it.
Assuming 1 trillion resolvable stars, with one tenth having
civilizations generating the right kind of emissions for 1000 years
each, you'd have to examine about 100,000,000 before you found one.

>I guess my point is, unless someone out there has some pretty
>sophisticated technology...we are quite invisible...at least,
>ordinary...you couldn't even get a good Master's Thesis out of
>us...

All you need is a bigger radio telescope, and luck.  This discussion
started out from the question of why we haven't been contacted by
another civilization.  Even granting that the Earth is detectable at
interstellar distances, it's clear that probability is heavily
against our ever being detected.

C Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Aug 85 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #313
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 313

Today's Topics:

                Books - Delany & Niven & Rosenberg &
                        Juvenile Stories & Books from D&D,
                Films - The Brother from Another Planet,
                Miscellaneous - Aliens (5 msgs) & Generation Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 85 07:50 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Dhalgren

WARNING: Personal Opinions Follow:

Dahlgren is quite possibly the worst piece of dreck I have ever set
eyes on. I said it before, and I'll say it again: YECCCCH!!!!!

RE Jim Hofmann's comments on Dahlgren: I will admit that Delaney
takes on topics that most everyone else shies away from (most
everyone - not everyone, and the others do it better!) but I don't
really want to read about these topics, and I particularly don't
want to read trashy writing on these topics. Similarly, though
Delaney "divorces himself from standard literary style", there are
others who do it better.

RE "I haven't met many sci-fi readers who don't hold this book with
anything less than awe." Zowie! What planet do you live on? I have
never met anyone who actually finished the book, much less held it
in awe. If nothing else, I am impressed by your persistence.

Dave
PS: I'm not trying to flame here, I just want to warn folks that not
everyone thinks that Dhalgren is the greatest thing since sliced
bread.

------------------------------

Subject: Niven's Protectors
Date: 06 Aug 85 11:47:23 PDT (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        There is one reason I can think of that will explain the
differences in thought pattern between the Protectors of Home and
Teela Brown as a Protector.
        If Teela does not use the Star Drive to get the Ring back on
axis, OK so lots of billions of hominids get toasty all over.  The
race as a whole will continue.
        If the Protectors on Home had not busted out of the
hospitals to make more of their own kind, the Pak would have swept
in and destroyed the entire human race.  The modern Earth-type human
is a mutated abomination in the eyes of a Pak.  Brennan and the rest
of the Protectors were doing their duty as a whole to the human
race.
        Bigger question, though.  This one has always bothered me
about Niven's universe.  What the heck happens to Home after the
Protectors left to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win,
because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.  But what happens
to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating in the
atmosphere ?  It bugs me.

                        Dave Godwin
                        UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 85 09:40:58 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Guardians of the Flame (A Flame!)
From: gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

I would like to defend The Guardian of the Flame Series.  I
personally loved the books and am looking forward to the next one.
In fact, everyone I've talked to who has read them either liked them
or loved them.  I've recommended them to people and they thanked me
not scolded me as the last review (or should that be, critique)
would suggest.

I mean, that is a pretty harsh beating for a series that has pretty
damn good character developement (you really get to know them),
plenty of action (ala D&D, but so what -- it's done well), and a
little comic relief (from Elegon and such) to keep it interesting.
Personally, I really enjoy SF with a twist of humor, and Rosenberg
(sorry, but Greenbaum or Silverbob weren't very close) does quite a
good job with it.  Sure, it gets cute sometimes, but some people
like that.  Take the Xanth books by Piers Anthony -- they get just
as cute and they're best-sellers.  A lot of people out there like
this stuff!

Scott Gellerman
(Gellerman.osbunorth@xerox)

------------------------------

From: dartvax!betsy@topaz.arpa (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: Kids' Stuff? (recent fantasy juveniles)
Date: 5 Aug 85 22:00:01 GMT

   Robin McKinley, *The Blue Sword* and *The Hero and the Crown*
   Tamora Pierce, *Alanna: The First Adventure* & *In the Hand of
      the Goddess*
   Cherry Wilder, *A Princess of the Chameln*

I almost missed most of the above books; my local bookstore shelved
all except one of them in its separate children's section.  They're
worth seeking out.  All three deal with adolescent female
protagonists, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends.

The McKinley books have received quite a bit of notice; *The Blue
Sword* was a Newbery Honor Book and *The Hero and the Crown* won the
Newbery outright.  (For those who don't know, the Newbery is awarded
to 'the best children's book of a given year.'  Past winners include
A Wrinkle In Time and The Bronze Bow.)  These books are set in
Damaria, which is very like Kipling's India.

*The Blue Sword* concerns Angharad (known as Harry) Crewe, an orphan
who has been sent to Damaria to join her brother, an officer in the
Army.  Harry is enchanted by the country and its customs, but is
frustrated in her attempts to learn more about the natives.  Harry
isn't terribly 'ladylike'; she loves to ride and to hunt, but she's
terrible at flirting, the only acceptable pastime for a proper young
lady.  The other Homelanders busy themselves with leading the most
'normal' lives they can in an abnormal place, and there isn't much
place in a 'normal' world for Angharad Crewe.

Angharad gets lucky; I won't spoil the plot by saying more than
that.  Try the book and see what you think.  *The Hero and the
Crown* is about an earlier Damarian hero, Aerin; she shares with
Harry the gift/curse of being unusual at the age and in a society
where normality is paramount.  McKinley has an unusually vivid
memory for the pains of being an outcast girl, and unusual gift for
creating detailed and convincing characters.

The Pierce books are about Alanna, a girl of noble birth who is
being sent off to a monastery to learn proper feminine behavior.
Her twin brother is being sent off to become a page and learn proper
masculine behavior.  As it happens, Alanna's brother is a scholar
and Alanna wants to become a warrior.  So they arrange to switch.
Alanna, about ten, disguises herself as a boy and rides off to her
fostering; Thom goes off to learn sorcery.  (Thom doesn't have to
disguise himself as a girl; apparently the monastery teaches
scholars of both sexes.)

This book doesn't cheat with the issues it raises; Alanna gets into
real scrapes to keep her sex secret.  She's not as strong as the
boys she trains with, and she has to work extra hard to make up for
it.  She's a likable girl, and the books kept me reading.  In both
books, I found the endings a bit obvious, but that's what fairytales
are for.  I'm looking forward to seeing what Alanna gets up to after
her knighthood.

Wilder's *A Princess of the Chameln* is a remarkable book.
Candidly, I have a hard time imagining the child who would enjoy it;
I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it at thirteen or fourteen.  It's
about Aidris am Firn, hereditary co-ruler of the Chameln.  As the
book opens, Aidris, ten years old, is being taken by her father to
accept fealty from the outlying tribes.  Three months later both her
parents are murdered.  Shortly thereafter an attempt is made on her
life and she has to fly.  And that's pretty much the way the book
goes.  Aidris can afford to trust very few of those who surround
her; her aunt in particular is her enemy.

*A Princess* is a remarkably melancholy and autumnal book.  It's
about patience and restraint, not virtues very attractive to the
adolescent.  It's a book in which some of the bad guys win; wrongs
go unrighted; good people die.  I liked it very much.

The McKinley books are in hardback by Greenwillow Press; the Wilder
and Pierce books are in hardback by Argo.  *A Princess of the
Chameln* and *The Blue Sword* have also been issued in paperback
recently.

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Tue 6 Aug 85 10:48:28-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: D&D as a source for ideas

The basic rule for science fiction & fantasy is:

Ideas are the easy part.

Character development is the hard part.

This doesn't mean that stories that stress characters over plot are
automatically better -- lopsided IS lopsided.  But the best stories
must have strong characters as well as strong plots and ideas.

A D&D game is just a series of related puzzles.  It takes an
intelligent player to allow her character to mature as well as
gather experience points.  If you have that sort of intelligence,
and can put it into a story, fine, but if you are simply telling the
battles and melees as they happened, it will be boring and
unsatisfying.  Some readers may not realize why they are
unsatisfied, but they will notice that the story seems pointless and
thin.

The Liavek series are a good example.  My impression was that the
world originated as a gaming world, but that the gamers became
authors and wrote about incidents and stories that didn't occur in
the course of the game, or manipulated events to fill literary goals
as well.

Obviously, hyper!brust can correct me, and as I am just a fledgling
writer, my views are untested and subject to change, but I feel that
no real stories can be written using D&D (or Traveller or ....) as
the sole source of material.  Games may be useful as templates (just
as dreams or real life or "idea books" are) but the real story has
to come from an understanding of people.

                        wz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 85 14:38:33 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
Subject: The Brother from Another Planet

video/movie review of:

THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET

Just out on video, The Brother survives the transfer to the small
screen quite nicely.  I saw this in some artsy-fartsy theater
originally and left wondering why the major movie houses hadn't
picked it up.  I thought it would appeal to people of all ages, race
and type, sort of an intellectual E.T.  The movie, although heavily
SF would appeal to those not normally inclined to the SF-genre, so
if you do rent it you can invite those friends over.

Particular scenes to watch for are: The Brother's tour through the
city at night by the Rastafarian.  This is a very dreamy scene and I
backed it up a couple of times to watch it over.  Also, there is a
scene where two midwestern whites lost in Harlem make his
acquaintance.  They start drinking beer and talking but since his
vocal chords are removed The Brother doesn't make any reply.
Anyway, the white guys leave thinking they have made great inroads
with a minority.  There are also these two weird aliens chasing The
Brother around New York whose fumbling personas contrast greatly
with the cool Harlem surroundings.

This is a good movie designed to make you think as well as laugh at
yourself and our society.  It also won a Cannes award.  So if you
haven't seen it yet, I recommend it highly.

                                        Jim Hofmann

------------------------------

Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 18:38:41-PDT
From: Bruce <Leban%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: TV & Aliens, etc.

> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> A junk movie, we watched it with the sound off and missed nothing.

> From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
> Whenever a network tries to take one of these [terrible] shows off
> the air, the aliens threaten to vaporize the planet.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who finds TV more bearable with
the sound off.  That way it doesn't interfere as much with whatever
book I happen to be reading.  And I have to keep the TV turned on so
that the networks won't cancel shows like The A-Team and get our
planet vaporized!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 10:48 CDT
From: Allen_Sherzer <sherzer%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: WHY HAVE WE NOT BEEN CONTACTED?

Why haven't we been contacted by ET's? I would think the answer is
obvious: the Mice are preventing it. Any contact (especially at this
critical time) would damage the program working on the question to
the ultimate answer.

         Allen "42" Sherzer

------------------------------

Date: Tue 6 Aug 85 13:24:37-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Another reason for not being visited

There aren't all that many stars close to us.  Anyone visiting Sol
with the intent of visiting us probably found out about us by old
radio shows, and they haven't been flying around for all that long
-- and I don't know how easy it would be to detect them over solar
radiation, and even cosmic background noise.  Our neighbors, if any,
probably don't know we're here.

Does anyone know whether OZMA could detect Earth at the distances
it's using?

Also, anyone visiting us would have to be close in time as well as
space.  Now, 1,000 years is barely noticable on astronomic time
scales (most of the time, anyways).  There's enough randomness in
evolution that, if two planets evolve life at the same instant
(Please, no flames about simultaneity!), and the life follows
similar patterns, they probably won't evolve sentient life within
1,000 years of each other.

I'd be suprised if there were anyone else within listening distance
of us.

------------------------------

Date: Tue Aug  6 10:58:09 1985-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <taw@mordor>
Subject: Re: Why would 'they' visit us?

> Seeing as we are out on one of the arms near the edge of a 'small'
> galaxy we probably haven't been visited because we haven't been
> found.  It's like why don't people go to small towns way off the
> beaten track.
>                       Warren (SANDER @ DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA)

If this is true, it's probably just as well.  As anybody that lives
near San Francisco can tell you, the tourist industry is murder on a
nice town.......

Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)
MILNET: <taw at MORDOR> <taw at S1-C>
UUCP:   ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw  ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: visible civilization (real sources)
Date: 7 Aug 85 00:44:06 GMT

I knew I had sources somewhere....

In the May 1975 _Scientific American_ there is a nice article on
searching for extraterrestrial intelligence by Sagan and Drake.  A
summary of their articles (or parts of it anyway):

Arecibo Observatory, when transmitting, is at least a million times
brighter than the sun.  This signal can be detected by a similar
receiver at a distance of about ten thousand light years.  A number
of other sites have similar capabilities.

In the FM and VHF tv bands, the earth is quite bright.  A receiver
system to detect such signals was conceived of at the time of the
article, to be called 'Cyclops'.  Employing 1500 antennas of 100
meters each,it would be able to detect such signals out to several
hundred lightyears.  Such a system would not be beyond our current
technology-- but it would be very expensive (~$10G).

These observations do not rely on resolving the earth as a separate
body.

C Wingate

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix241@topaz.arpa (ix241)
Subject: Re: generation ships
Date: 5 Aug 85 17:15:15 GMT

RAH's _Orphans of the Sky_ was one the first I know about.  The
survivors are mentioned in _Time Enough for Love_.  David Bischoff
and a co-author did a whole novel on a society that could have
started from Heinlein's ending to OotS.  (The title of the Bischoff
book takes its name from the bridal ceremony that forms the basis
for the story.  And like an idiot I can't remember it!)

John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Aug 85 1017-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #314
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 314

Today's Topics:

                Books - Heinlein & Pangborn & Vogt,
                Miscellaneous - Ewoks & Aliens (4 msgs) &
                        Black Holes & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 03:28 EST
From: ANDREW SIGEL <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re:  Green Hills of Earth (the song)

Only portions of the song appear in the short story of the same name
as printed in the collection of the same name (published by Signet)
and in "The Past Through Tomorrow", which contains all of the
"Future History" stories but one.  The song is also a filksong, and
as such must appear in one or more of the published filksong
hymnals, but whether they have the complete lyrics I have no idea.
Any filker out there who knows?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 03:16 EST
From: ANDREW SIGEL <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Re:  Music in SF

Another novel in which music plays an important role is A MIRROR FOR
OBSERVERS by Edgar Pangborn.  I highly recommend it, even though its
near-future setting is, by now, past, and some of the speculations
far from fulfilled.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1985 08:48:40-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley>
Subject: aliens

>Remember the classic SF short that theorized that detecting which
>stars had habitable planets was such a trick that one extremely
>advanced civilization never found it and finally just died out
>since there was no point wandering over those vast distances just
>to find a habitable world.  I believe they actually sent out a few
>scouts but gave up when none of them found anything.  The plot
>involves a less advanced race that had stumbled on the secret
>trying to figure out what happened to this dead race by reviving
>individuals from their remains and quizzing them.
>
>This seems so likely (except it probably isn't possibile to detect
>which systems are worth visiting, not merely hard) that I don't
>find it the least bit surprising that we haven't been visited.

The story is called Resurrection by A E Van Vogt.  The advanced race
is humanity, which gets wiped out by a nucleonic storm since they
hadn't been able to find any place to go when the storm came (don't
worry, I'm not giving away anything important).  The other race was
the Ganae, and they did resurrect people on Earth, hence the title.
The story is excellent and can be found, for those who are
interested, in Damon Knight's "Toward Infinity", or Robert
Silverberg's "Strangers in the Universe"

------------------------------

From: <crash!bnw@Nosc>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 85 23:53:08 PDT
Subject: Re: "cute" Ewoks

edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) writes:
>Ewoks?, be serious.  It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that
>this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy
>market.  They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute
>noises, walked funny and had adorable skittish mannerisms otherwise
>skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them up et
>al.

     Happily, I am told I am blessed with more than half-a-brain, so
I can safely go ahead and disagree.
     I don't doubt that the aftermarket possibilities of the Ewoks
had occurred to Lucas and company when they developed them for the
film.  But I do feel that Mr. ALbrecht has gone too far in
condemning them as a reasonable concept.
     There has been much speculation about the ability of little
Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film.  I would
agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so some
of the items seen would have been built; another idea presented by
someone here was that the Stormtroopers had been a problem for the
Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already been fighting back.
     Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater
capability than they have been credited with.  I think there has
been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any
possibility of heavy work quickly.  I submit, however, that four to
six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty Ewoks, using
a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the stripped log.
Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile restrained
by a keystone-type lever.
     The Ewoks would seem to be early-to-middle Paleolithic.  They
have learned fire, sophisticated weapons-making, and have a tribal
structure in what does not appear to be a nomadic society.
Moreover, they have had some exposure to the modern technology of
the Empire.  None of the activity attributed to them would be beyond
a humanoid culture at the same stage of development.  It is
anthrocentristic to deny small, furry people the same capabilities.
The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies would have become
had a non-interference directive kept them uncontaminated by man.
     Two specifics:

>. . .otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them
>tying them up et al.

     This isn't realistic belief.  If I'm busy shooting down Ewoks
in front of me with my blaster while Ewoks to me left, right, and
behind are filling me full of arrows and spears, I'm going to be as
dead as any Ewoks I shoot.

>Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a
>serious character which is to give storm troopers any competition.

     This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels.  If Mr.
Albrecht read them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't serious
characters or were capable of little beyond "yeeking" and "smokko",
then he missed a very great deal.

Bruce N. Wheelock
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: <crash!bnw@Nosc>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 85 23:49:54 PDT
Subject: Re: The Great Silence

Perhaps the problem is simply that there is no reason why anyone
should have found us.  This is an excerpt from _Cosmos_ by Dr. Carl
Sagan.
     ". . .If a great many years ago an advanced interstellar
spacefaring civilization emerged 200 light-years away, it would have
no reason to think there was anything special about the Earth unless
it had been here already.  No artifact of human technology, not even
our radio transmissions, has had time, even travelling at the speed
of light, to go 200 light-years.  From their point of view, all
nearby star systems are more or less equally attractive for
exploration or colonization."
     ". . .A sphere two hundred light-years in radius contains
200,000 suns and perhaps a comparable number of worlds suitable for
colonization. . ."

     Why the silence?  We're just one little regarded blue-green
world at the unfashionable end of a spiral arm in the Milky Way
galaxy.

Bruce N. Wheelock
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: why nobody's visited
Date: 5 Aug 85 15:50:01 GMT

>From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
>Remember the classic SF short that theorized that detecting which
>stars had habitable planets was such a trick that one extremely
>advanced civilization never found it and finally just died out
>
>This seems so likely (except it probably isn't possibile to detect
>which systems are worth visiting, not merely hard) that I don't
>find it the least bit surprising that we haven't been visited.

This seems superficially plausible, but it doesn't stand up to
closer examination.  You don't need habitable planets!  You don't
even need planets at all.  All you need is materials to make
habitats out of, and a power source (= a star).  It seems likely
that most if not all stars have matter orbiting them; we know that
several nearby ones do (Vega, for example).

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong - DCS)
Subject: Re: visible civilization
Date: 5 Aug 85 00:14:18 GMT

milne@uci-icse writes:
> I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun, in
> any band, I'll be very surprised.  You might double check with
> your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and
> possibly Saturn.

one of my first year physics project was to calculate how far away
the earth could be detected by a radio telescope the size of
Aricebo.  it turns out that a signal broadcast at the usual
operating power of Aricebo can be detected at a distance of some
100,000 light years by a comparable instrument that is pointed
toward the transmitter at the right time.  the signal is good enough
such that two way communications with a 100,000 year delay is
possible.

this has nothing to do with brightness per se, but correct
concentration of the broadcast energy.  The cone of transmission
would be about 20,000 or so light years across, but undetectable
unless you happened to be looking in the right direction at the
right time.  Some of the project Ceti transmissions using Aricebo
were aimed at the Hercules cluster some 13,000 light years away.
so, you might say brightness is a relative thing.

> There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from
> the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha
> Centauri) stars.  I've neither the time nor the inclination to go
> through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps
> extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's.

you have to remember that the signals from the sun are more or less
random (like black body radiation), while the signals from the earth
are anything but (contents exempt).  that alone would make anybody
watching take more interest.  Something like the Aricebo
transmission would be like a supernova in our galaxy in terms of
getting someone's attention, but they have to be looking in the
 right direction.  Another thing too are the various nuclear tests
that have been undertaken in the last forty years.  Remember that
they generate a hefty electromagnetic pulse that propogates in all
directions.  Because they are effectively one time events with no
set pattern, they would probably be ignored as glitches in the
instrumentation, but they are detectable over very large distances,
on the order of a few thousand light years.

> And remember, as I said in my first posting, to pick up any of
> Earth's signals at all other than natural ones (and I don't know
> whether there are any) you have to be within about 50 or 60 light
> years.  I'm sure no such signals were generated anywhere on Earth
> more than 60 years ago, or perhaps 70, when the first crude
> recordings were done.  And at 70 light years' radius, those
> signals, weak as they were to start with, must have attenuated
> miserably.  So I would place 70 light years as the maximum radius
> at which Earth could be detected by radio telescopes, if it could
> be so detected at all.

The key thing is that our regular radio transmissions may be lost in
the overall electromagnetic transmissions from other things nearby,
but there are a lot of other things besides commercial broadcasts
that would be detectable from great distances.  The catch is that
we've been only noticeable for the last forty years or so, and only
in the last twenty or so have we actually tried to make ourselves
known.  Project SETI spent about 6 months transmitting to various
nearby stars with such a signal power that even over the distance of
thirty or forty light years, a primitive radio would be capable of
detecting the signal if someone were listening at the right time in
the right place.

Herb Chong...
UUCP:  {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}
       !watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA:  herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 85 10:01:09 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Who's out there ...
From: LYang.es@Xerox.ARPA (Larry Yang)

Many discussions on extraterrestrial life seem to be plagued with
one flaw: they all seem to be centered around life AS WE KNOW IT
(i.e., carbon-based, "visible"-light seeing, gas-exchanging life).
If one believes the more scientific views of the development of this
universe, one would have to agree that our existence in this
universe is a very improbable occurence.  But it happened (sad as it
may be to some).  But what is the probably of another independently
evolving ecosystem JUST LIKE OURS, in some other star system?
Pretty unlikely at best, I'd say.

I believe that there are other forms of life out there.  But they
are VERY different from us.  They just might be silicon based,
derive energy from gamma rays, and "SEE" a totally different
wavelength from us.  Maybe they're not even based on any form of
matter, but purely in the form of energy. (What's the difference
anyway; matter is energy, right?)  Existence of this form of life
would make the definition of "life" and "intelligent life" very
elusive. Our anthropocentric definition of "intelligent life" is
"life just like ours".

The reason "they" haven't found us is because they're looking in the
wrong places.  The look at our star (good ol' Sol) and say "No, a
star of that class could NEVER support intelligent life like ours.
Let's go someplace else."  Others look at our planet and say "Nope.
Too close to the sun."  Or "The gravity on a planet of that size
would crush anything living on it."  There might be a group that
react, "That star system is radiating radio waves.  Since radio
waves are harmful to us, there can't be life there."

The point is that the reason no one has found us is the same reason
that we haven't found anyone else: we're looking in the wrong types
of places.

This argument suggests something very distrubing to those who
believe in other life forms.  How are we going to communicate with
them?  What if the other life form is anti-matter based?  How do we
interact with them (Assuming we somehow found each other)?
Interracial marriages would be difficult (What kind of children
would this marriage produce?  Do they marry on that other planet?
Do they have children?)

Even if there was life of other forms, we may not be able to
communicate with any of them.  We might as well be alone.

Larry
Too bad; I was looking forward to finding out the latest fashions on
Rigel.  (Rigel?  Why do people always mention Rigel?)

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes
Date: 5 Aug 85 16:16:11 GMT

Yes, you can make a black hole out of anti-matter.  But the result
is just a black hole, not an anti-matter black hole.  There is no
way to distinguish it from a black hole made from ordinary matter.

In particular, if one collided with another black hole, the result
would be just a bigger black hole.  Not an explosion destroying the
two black holes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 10:48 EDT
From: sampsonr.henr@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Time Travel and Memory

The lastest conversations on time travel and a report about eye
witness reliability given about a year ago struck a nerve.  The gist
of the report is that people's memories are subjective and that two
people involved in an event will recall it slightly different.  Now
if we assume that everyone remembers things as they happened, AND we
assume that the effects of a third party's time travel is small and
quite subtle then the divergence in the recall of the events is
plausible.  Finally it would also explain the disappearance of
individuals who seem to drop off the face of the earth.  The ripple
in time finally caught up with them and they ceased to exist.  The
question is who will be next?  How many of these disappearees had
children and what effect does the time ripple have on them.  T'is
food for thought by better SF writers than I.  (No I'm not a
writer...YET!!)

Ronald Sampson(nee  Reader of Human Souls)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Aug 85 0859-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #315
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 315

Today's Topics:

        Books - Chalker & Harrison & MacCaffrey & Sheffield,
        Films - Quatermass,
        Television - The Twilight Zone,
        Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & 
                The Trojan Horse & Brautigan & Old Magazines &
                The Universe & The Earth's Brightness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Answers to some previous inquiries
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 85 16:46:41 EDT

First off, Sue Brezden asked (quite a few issues back) if there were 
any stories dealing with alien races that start expanding/invading/ 
enslaving etc.  because of religious zealousness.  There is indeed 
such a story. The theme makes an appearance in Jack Chalker's "Flux 
and Anchor" series.

                 ****** MILD SPOILER WARNING ******

The series deals with a society of humans that are living on a world 
which is obviously not earth. In the last book of the series, they 
discover that they were originally a colony from Earth and that they 
were cut off because the invaders were about to come down their 
throats. These invaders have the idea that they are the Chosen Ones of
the universe. I won't tell you how it comes out.

                                     Mike Johnson

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry Harrison
Date: 7 Aug 85 00:31:54 GMT

     Harrison has a remarkable talent.  He writes straight adventure
SF, but writes it *so *straight, it comes out funny.  Add a little
humor, and what you've got is a fun little read.

     THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT is a collection of
three novels: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT, THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S
REVENGE, and THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD.  The universe
has been fairly well tamed, there is plenty for everyone, and things
are mostly quiet.  That's fine for ninety-nine percent of the
world's population; the oddballs want a little more.  One such is
James "Slippery Jim" diDriz, who in a stainless steel world can
still find holes in the wall to hide in.  His greatest weakness is
his soft heart.  With a pocketful of grenades and a recoilless .75,
he fights, steals, and chases his way across the galaxy.  There's an
impossible escape about every twenty pages, a beautiful woman or so,
and dozens of great straight lines.

     Four dollars is still a lot of money for a paperback.  When the
paperback has three novels in it, it's a bargain.  Recommended as a
good light read or three.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 1985 18:05:02 GMT (Wednesday)
From: Keith Dale <kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa>
Subject: Music in SF (& apologies to all)
To: Paula_S._Sanch@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA

At least when I goof up, I do it in a really big way:

>>From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM
>>One story that I haven't seen mentioned is:
>>Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?)

From that innocent posting I received more hate mail, aspersions,
and such than I would have believed possible.  Just when I thought
it was safe to show myself in public again, I got this zinger:

>From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MULTICS.ARPA
>May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin.  I will
>struggle to do the same.  I concede that McCaffrey may be a 'low
>taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters with some
>personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly.

I am abashed, chagrined, and properly chastened.  I will hereby
reread everything that I have by Anne McCaffrey, get all that I
don't have, appeal to St. Patrick for forgiveness (and to be cured
of my lousy memory), and make a pilgrimage this year to the land of
my grandfather (and grandmother, of course)!

My apologies to all!!

Keith M. Dale
P.S. - One mystery is cleared up: I now know why I thought Cherryh
was so damn good! Uh, oh...I think I just opened myself up to a new
round of flaming...oh, well *sigh* ...

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT by Charles Sheffield
Date: 7 Aug 85 00:33:07 GMT

     I hold in my hand a book that proves that good story and hard
science aren't incompatible.  It has characters that come to life, a
gripping story line, and a wealth of ideas.
     The book I hold in my hand is not Sheffield's BETWEEN THE
STROKES OF NIGHT.
     BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT begins on (and around) Earth, in
the early twenty-first century.  Things are going to pot.  The main
characters are researching how to eliminate people's need for sleep,
so everyone will be more productive and help get Earth out of its
jam.  The rich, eccentric-but-wise trillionaire, who's built several
thriving, lucrative habitats and factories in orbit, is interested
in this research.
     Cut to: the two hundred and eightieth century (more or less).
Several young (sixteen to twenty) men and women have just competed
in a planetary Olympics for the honor of getting trained for some
sort of leadership.  Some of them are "troublemakers", which means
they're not content with going along on this trip through (or to)
whatever awaits them.  They're all bright, and constantly impress
each other (and naive readers) by deducing what's going on.  They
stumble (by risking their lives in truly incredible ways) on to
several secrets, which may lead them to What's Really Going On.
     Like Asimov's Foundation trilogy (plus one), nothing happens.
Or at least, it all happens off screen.  Unlike FOUNDATION and its
sequels, no one actually does anything that has any effect during
the "action" of BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT.  The characters are so
thin, they could be built up with a single ply of tissue paper.  The
"scientific" basis for the Big Secret is ludicrous.  The romantic
relationships transcend "unbelievable" and pass into "silly".
Mankind, his technology, and his culture don't change as much from
2010 to 28000 as they did during any ten year period this century.
     There was some discussion as to where the good books would go
after the Baen/Pocket split.  Baen did a terrific job at GALAXY.
Baen did a good job at Tor.  I'm sure there's some dynamite novels
coming out of Baen Books - somewhere. . . .

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Hobbs
Date: 13 Aug 85 08:00:01 GMT

From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
>(1) The film with 'Hobbs End' was originally called Quatermass and
>the Pit

Right.

>the awful title 5 Million Years to Earth was a US atrocity.

Right.

>The film stars Peter Cushing as Prof. Quatermass,

Andrew Kier.  And James Donald played Roney.  Cushing was not in the
film and never played Quatermass.

>The film was the subject of one of the better late Goon Show
>satires, called Seagoon and the Pit:

Actually, it was called "The Scarlet Capsule."  It is in one of the
collections of Goon Show Plays.

>Like the two previous Quatermass stories, it was written by
>Nigel Kneale.

And the one that followed many years later THE QUATERMASS
CONCLUSION.  QUATERMASS AND THE PIT is the best of the series,
though.  People who have been on the net for a while know that I
consider this to be the best science fiction film I have ever seen.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  7 Aug 85 08:19:01 PDT
From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
Subject: Night Gallery

>The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the
>hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a
>grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely
>remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get rid
>of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the
>attempt.

Actually, this was an episode of the Twilight Zone starring Telly
Savalas (bald even then) as the little girl's father.  The doll (and
also, I think, the episode) was named "Talking Tina".  When the
string was pulled it was supposed to say "My name is Talking Tina,
and I love you!"  Despite its warm and friendly nature, Savalas
didn't much care for it, and said so quite vocally.

**SPOILER, if anybody cares about spoiling a TV show that's 20 or so
years old.........**

Well, this doll had an annoying habit of always being underfoot -
like at the top of the stairs, in just the right position to send
Telly Savalas into the middle of next week....  And furthermore, it
became clear that the little girl wasn't leaving it there.
Meanwhile, it begans to speak to Telly of its own accord (look, Ma,
no string!): "My name is Talking Tina, and I HATE you!"

Surprised, but undaunted, Telly proceeds to try various methods of
destroying it, from simply throwing it away to melting it with a
blowtorch.  Nothing works.  And Talking Tina is now saying, "My name
is Talking Tina, and I am going to KILL you!"

I forget exactly how it ended, but it was suitably grisly...

                                                Will Duquette

------------------------------

Subject: Stories That Deal With Co-existant Magic And Technology.
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 85 16:46:41 EDT

Two of Chalker's current series deal with this (maybe he has
developed a fascination for the subject). The series are his
"Dancing Gods" and the above-mentioned "Flux and Anchor" series. The
"Flux and Anchor" series deals more deeply with the subject, but
"Dancing Gods" is more fun.

Piers Anthony also seems to like this one. Someone else already
mentioned that his "Incarnations of Immortality" is rife with this
theme. Having read both of the books already out a couple of times,
it strikes me that he has managed to actually use magic AS
technology, if you get my meaning. An interesting mix. Other stories
of his that deal with the theme are his "Tarot" trilogy (which
actually uses it more as a vehicle for the real purpose of the
story).

Robert Heinlen used the idea in at least one place in "The Number of
The Beast" (which I liked, though it may damn me eternally to
admit).

Niven used the idea in more than one story line. I believe someone
already mentioned that he used it in his "Warlock" stories. He also
wrote a number of stories starring an inept bungler named Svetz that
are collected in his anthology "The Flight of the Horse" which are
quite good.

The theme figures quite strongly in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
excellent interpretation of the Arthurian legends, "The Mists of
Avalon". I believe she also uses it in her Darkover novels, though I
have never actually read them.

Those are all that I can remember right off the top of my head. I
suspect that there are many other places where authors have used the
idea, since it is one that has so much potential.

                                     Mike Johnson

------------------------------

Subject: Answers to some previous inquiries
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 85 16:46:41 EDT

A while back, someone made reference to "The Trojan Horse" as a
story while discussing Mad Max. As a long time lover of mythology,
be it classic or otherwise, I feel compelled to mention that the
Trojan Horse story is only one small part of a pair of incredible
works by Homer, the Classical Greek poet. These are the Iliad and
the Odyssey. The former is an account of the ten-year long siege of
the city of Troy by the princes of Greece and their associated
armies. The second is the tale of the adventures that befall
Odysseus, one of the heroes of the the Trojan War, as he attempts to
return home. Homer manages to tie a lot of the (then existing)
mythology into these two stories and a lot of the episodes therein
are taken out and used in other pieces of literature.

References to these two works can be found in much of modern
literature. If you've never read either or both of these stories, it
would be well worth your while to find a good interpretation of them
and settle back for a grand and glorious adventure in literature. To
those of you whom I may have offended by implying that you lack
culture, or are unread, I apologize in advance.

                                     Mike Johnson

------------------------------

From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: SF westerns
Date: 5 Aug 85 20:04:00 GMT

From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
>There is a novel called "The Hawkline Monster (a Gothic Western)"
>by the late Richard Brautigan.  It isn't really a western, a
>gothic, or SF, but has some elements of all three.

late? Late? LATE????

Please tell me it isn't so...

                                blues, II
                                (shi dobu nan)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 7 Aug 85 11:23:50-PDT
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #308

I have a fairly complete set of SF & F dating from the 50's, and
also *old* IF and Galaxy editions. I am interested in selling these.
I've read most of them and they are gathering dust.

Interested parties please reply to me and not this list. The books
have lots of fun reading in them!

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 85 10:30:06 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: And another thing...
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Jon Pugh writes:
>It is my firm belief that all the energy expended in the Big Bang
>has been stored away as gravitational potential and it will all be
>converted back into kinetic energy just before the next Big Bang.
>There is no other way, if the universe is a closed system like
>Albert says.

Not necessarily.  Remember "escape velocity"?  If the mass of the
universe isn't great enough, it may still have too much kinetic
energy to collapse again; in other words, everything has escape
velocity from the center of mass of the universe (the big bang
point).

The universe is a closed system, an idea far older than Einstein,
but that doesn't mean that it has to repeat itself.  Indeed, such a
repetition has disturbing thermodynamic consequences (where'd all
the entropy go?).

There are no easy answers to the question of what will happen to the
universe.  Astronomers are still fairly divided in their opinions.

                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  7 Aug 85 21:03:16 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Earth's radio brightness

  The Earth is much brighter in the microwave region of the spectrum
than the Sun is.
  The Sun gives off small amounts of radio waves and microwaves
because of its heat.  Jupiter gives off very small amounts of radio
waves for that reason.  Jupiter's main radio emissions are in the 10
meter and the 0.1 meter bands, and are NOT thermal, but are caused
either by giant lighning storms on the planet or, more likely, by
ions from Io spiralling in Jupiter's magnetic field.  Jupiter does
NOT radiate hardly any microwaves.
  Earth is always brighter than the Sun in the microwave region due
mainly to high power military radar.  But if a large, highly
directional antenna such as the one at Aricebo is used, the Earth
is, in one direction only, on one frequency only, one of the
brightest microwave sources in the whole galaxy, and can communicate
with a similar station 1000 light years away.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Aug 85 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #316
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 10 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 316

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bradbury & Dick & Niven &
                         Wylie & Bar Tales,
                 Comics - Grimjack,
                 Films - Harold Lloyd,
                 Music - SF in Music,
                 Television - The Man From U.N.C.L.E. &
                         Japanese Animation
                 Miscellaneous - Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 85 15:20:01 PDT (Wednesday)
From: JFusco.es@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #303

Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with Ray Bradbury,or his
agent, short of going through his publishing company.  My wife's
company would like to book him for a speaking engagement.

Joe Fusco
Xerox

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 04:38:36 MDT
From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley)
Subject: IN MILTON LUMKY TERRITORY by Philip K Dick

(I hope you won't mind seeing a review of a non-sf book here, but it
IS by Philip K Dick, who has many rabid fans in the sf community,
crazy people who might actually take the time to read a few of his
mainstream novels...  Like me.) IN MILTON LUMKY TERRITORY (Dragon
Press: c1985, 213 pp) is one in a series of mainstream novels by
Dick to reach the public in recent years.  When Dick's career was
beginning he wrote some 11 mainstream novels, none of which he
succeeded in publishing at the time they were written.  (More
information about the unpublished novels can be found in Kim Stanley
Robinson's PhD dissertation, THE NOVELS OF PHILIP K DICK.) In 1975
Dick's novel CONFESSIONS OF A CRAP ARTIST was published, and it
proved to be as good and as interesting as his best science fiction.
THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE, Dick's last mainstream
novel (written after CONFESSIONS and immediately before THE MAN IN
THE HIGH CASTLE) was next to appear.  TEETH provides a wonderful
view of the psychological anatomy of Dick's characters, and is
possibly the clearest example of his favorite theme, which is that
all human beings live in their own separate realities.

TERRITORY is the story of Bruce Stevens, a young man who knows he
can make it in the commercial world.  Over the course of the book we
see how his confidence and arrogance affect those around him, and
how he in turn is affected by circumstance in ways that are beyond
his control, until he reaches a point when his reality begins to
crumble.  I don't want to give the impression that Dick wanders away
on one of his head trips in this novel -- the style is concrete,
grittily realistic, placing the reader squarely in the middle of
Stevens' misaligned relationships, putting you behind the wheel of
his Merc as he drives around the West of the 1950s looking for deals
on electric typewriters and falling in love, making mistakes,
laughing and crying.  But the people are unmistakably Dick people,
and out of the context of his sf novels we get to see just how
excruciatingly real these people are.

TERRITORY's theme, I think, is like that of TEETH, but the books are
distinct.  Although I prefer TEETH, if you are a Dick fanatic it
will be well worth your time to get both books and compare them.
TERRITORY has the advantage that it concentrates on a single
character and has a very nearly linear plot with a coherent ending.
I think it is less well written than TEETH -- there are places which
seem to need trimming and polishing, and there are stretches of the
book that are a bit dull.  According to the blurb on the flap of
TERRITORY, Kim Stanley Robinson declares that TERRITORY is a 'bitter
indictment of the effects of capitalism,' but Dick himself says in
his foreword: 'This is actually a very funny book, and a good one
too, in that the funny things that happen happen to real people who
come alive.  The ending is a happy one.  What more can an author
say?  What more can he give?'  I side with Dick, but you may
disagree.  Like most Dick novels, the story is open to
interpretation...

'People have to face reality sometime,' says Milton Lumky,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

PS -- More detail on how to get TEETH and TERRITORY: THE MAN WHOSE
TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE is published by Mark V Ziesing, PO Box
806, Willimantic CT 06226; ISBN 0-9612970-0-X; $19.50, hardcover
with a jacket illustration by Dell Harris.  IN MILTON LUMKY
TERRITORY is published by Dragon Press, PO Box 78, Pleasantville NY
10570; ISBN 0-911499-09-1; $29.95, hardcover with a jacket by
Barclay Shaw.  Apparently one orders Dragon Press books from
Ultramarine Publishing Co., PO Box 303, Hastings-on-Hudson, NY
10706.  (I saved some time and confusion by getting both books from
Mark Ziesing...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 09:46:11 edt
From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: protector psychology

Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry
about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life.

What Niven also didn't cover in Ringworld Engineers was that not
saving the Ringworld would be the same as killing 3E13 hominids more
surely than using the meteor defense to save the ringworld -- people
might survivie the radiation, but wouldn't possibly survive the sun
(or shadow squares, or whatever).

So I suppose the canonical answer of poetic license is it.

PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the ringworld
being built?  It did have the reference to the expedition to Earth,
which was much smaller.

Robert

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 85 06:23:15 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #308
From: finch.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA

>  Well, I just arrived from 1955 (I walked) and the big surprise is
>that it is still cold.  I was in the Ground Observor Corps then (we
>filled the gaps in the Air Defense Command radar net, which was
>more gaps than net) and the question wasn't whether there was going
>to be a nuclear war, it was when.  I for one was utterly astonished
>to see 1984 roll by.  Incidentally, there was a now-forgotton
>Phillip Wylie novel about a mid-1950's nuclear exchange between the
>US and the USSR -- anybody remember the name?

Phillip Wylie Wrote two novels about nuclear war with the Soviet
Union.  I don't know the exact time frame for either of them but the
titles were "Tomorrow", which was a comparison of two midwest
cities' survival capabilities. One had a good civil defense plan and
the other one had none.

The other title is "Triumph". A story of one very rich man and his
multi- million dollar shelter.

Jim Finch

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 05:29:55-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF Bar Tales

> From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
> A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar"
> subgenre.  I assume this is sub- to SF, but I have trouble
> characterizing the subgenre.  Would anyone care to describe their
> idea of what a "bar" tale is?  Perhaps a few more references to
> authors would help: Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already
> been mentioned.  Is this strictly a type of short story?

Well, we're discussing this in the context of sf, but the roots of
the sub-genre are quite old. The idea of a story in which a
character tells a tale goes back at least as far as AN ARABIAN
NIGHT'S ENTERTAINMENT. There are also numerous stories of people
telling stories around a campfire. The idea of setting this type of
story in a bar or club (a la Dunsany) is not restricted, I'm sure,
to sf, but I don't know any mainstream examples off-hand.

In discussing such stories that take place in bars (such as Arthur
Clarke's "White Hart", Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Place", deCamp
& Pratt's "Gavagan's Bar", etc., I tend to also include those that
take place in clubs, such as my earlier posting about Dunsany's
"Billiard Club".

As for other examples, there's Niven's "Draco Tavern" series, in
CONVERGENT SERIES and LIMITS, plus an individual story in A HOLE IN
SPACE ("The Fourth Profession") taking place in "the Long Spoon".
There's also Stephen King's "The Breathing Method" (in DIFFERENT
SEASONS). Even Peter Straub's GHOST STORY features a small club
called, if I can remember correctly, the Chowder Society, the four
members of which told ghost stories to each other.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 85 11:32 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #297

>From:  steve stuart@webstr.DEC
>In reference to M. Moorcock's stuff:
>I especially liked the way that while any individual series dealt
>with one particular incarnation, fate would, at times throw a few
>of the incarnations from other series into the picture.
>
>I'd like very much to read more sf with this feature (bug? :-)) ...
>can anyone think of what other authors do this, and do it well?

Anybody who likes Moorcock, the Theives World stuff, Old Humphrey
Bogart movies, O. Henry stories, or anything else in the world,
should check out a comic book called GRIMJACK.  It is, in my humble
opinion, the best book on the market at the moment.  Grimjack is a
mercenary, detective, bodyguard, assassin, thief, fighter, thug, bar
owner (and all around nice guy) who lives in The Pit in the city of
Cynosure.  Cynosure is approximately equal to Tanelorn-- the point
at which all the multiverses come together, and The Pit is roughly
equivalent to Downwind in Sanctuary-- which is roughly equivalent to
Central Park after dark, or the college registrar's office anytime
(i.e. not a place to cultivate marigolds.)  The combination is a
powerful setting where ANYTHING can happen.  Giant sentient slugs
attack with Uzzis (spelling is optional.  I mean the Israeli machine
guns) and the locals really enjoy heavy metal (bands, that is.)

The writing of this series is what makes it worthwhile.  Believe it
or not, things are constrained and operate under logical rules.  The
stories have been simply superb (though there has been a recent
shift in authors, and I watching to see if the standard is
maintained.)  The artwork is generally some of the best out there
and it each month's issue redefines the phrase "attention to
detail."  Be sure to read all the grafitti wherever it appears;
billboards can be a lot of fun; and things like pinball machines in
swords & sorcery taverns just make my day.

Its from First comics and should be available in any good comics
store.  Issue 15 (I think) is the latest one I've read and it's a
great starting point-- it concerns Grimjack's assignment to guard a
shipment being delivered by a sentient truck which speaks only in
20th century rock lyrics.  It's called "This Wheel's on Fire."  Read
it.

--Chris

------------------------------

From: utastro!arl@topaz.arpa (George Koehler)
Subject: Re: Back to the Future
Date: 7 Aug 85 19:31:37 GMT

> From: Couse.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA
> Bruce Leban writes:
>> "One thing I don't understand in either interpretation is the
>> clock in the Professor's house (at the beginning of the movie)
>> which has a man hanging off the face of a clock.  Where did he
>> get that clock?"
> The man hanging off the clock was Harold Lloyd, not the Professor.
> There was a scene in one of HL's classic silent movies from the
> '20s (I don't recall the name or exact year) where he gets stuck
> hanging from the hands of a clock.

The movie was "Safety Last".

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 04:59:32-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: SF in music (Stevie Nicks)

> From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
> And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed
> to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's still
> around?

While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh
myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about such.

As for Stevie Nicks, yes, she's still around. Still recording with
the Mac (whenever they get around to doing another album), and
flying solo as well (two albums so far, with a third on the way).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 11:16:03 PDT
Subject: The Man from U.N.C.L.E. is back!

I have been told, by a long time fan of the program, that the
program "The Man from UNCLE" is returning to the TV screen.  This
fall (September 2nd at 8PM) the program will start on CBN.  CBN is
the Christian Broadcasting Network and is available on most cable
system.

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 11:19:52 PDT
Subject: Comico/Harmony Gold future projects

According to informal interviews during the '85 San Diego Comic Con:
Harmony Gold, the producers of Robotech, will start production of
two more Japanese animated programs soon.  The programs will be
based on the original Japanese productions of the "Captain Harlock"
and "Queen Malenia" series.
        The producers of the comic book adaption of Robetech,
Comico, will be starting the production of a new series based on the
Jonny Quest TV program that was done by Hanna Barberra originally.

Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
                crash!victoro@nosc   or   crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 85 17:16 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Why we're being left alone (?)

In reference to why we're the way we are AND why we're not being
visited by aliens AND why aliens might come a long way to visit
us......

I just read Saberhagen's first Berserker book (yes, I had a deprived
childhood) it occured to me that he offers a plausible, if somewhat
off-the-wall explanation.  During the historian's introduction, he
makes comments about how thankful his race is that humankind
retained the violent, warlike, fighting instinct and, consequently,
not only had techniques but also some equipment for fighting the
berserkers when they first appeared.

Now, I'm not at all sure how much I believe this, but just for the
sake of discussion, mightn't it be possible that

        (a) Starfaring races, to survive long enough to achieve the
technology necessary for galactic-wide travel, tend to develop
socially and "morally" to the point where they are effectively no
longer capable of warfare?

        (b) Such races still see a need for the capacity to
violently defend against violence-- perhaps even violence from an
unknown outside force (i.e. the Berserkers.  C'mon, maybe they've
read Saberhagen.)?

        (c) Said races would therefore need to import their
warfarers.  This sufficiently desperate need for a commodity which
they did not possess would be sufficient to motivate travel of great
distances to obtain it.

        (d) But in all times other than those of direst emergency,
it would be more safe, more adviseable, and probably more pleasant
to leave your warlike resource pools on their own.  A few unlucky
ones might get the job of monitoring the available resources, but
there would certainly be nothing to gain (and something to be lost)
by displaying yourself to the population.  Either you would get
nuked, or the population would come to its senses, stop fighting
among itself and 'grow up'-- in which case you lose your warriors.
Of course, a slightly less "moral" civilization (or a slightly
different conception of the "moral" development of a spacegoing
race) might allow them to encourage the fighting to go on.  And you
always thought those politicians were just stupid . . . .

Anyway, food for thought.

--Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 85 0853-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #317
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 317

Today's Topics:

          Books - Cowper & McCollum & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                  Stewart & Stratton & Title Request,
          Music - Moorcock,
          Miscellaneous - Anaheim Creation & Aliens (2 msgs) &
                  The Problems With SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 04:19:35-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: THE ROAD TO CORLAY and sequel

> From: dcl-cs!gdh

> Yet more examples of music/ian being a dominant theme in
> an SF/F novel are :-
> (i) 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn'  (Short story)
> (ii) 'The Road to Corley'
>
> Both are by Richard Cowper and are published by Pan in the UK.  I
> think 'Piper...' is in a book called 'The Guardians' I'd
> appreciate help in finding a copy of this as I really enjoyed the
> story.

The US edition of THE ROAD TO CORLAY (which is graced by an
absolutely beautiful cover painting by Don Maitz) includes "Piper at
the Gates of Dawn" (one of my favorite stories of All Time) as a
rather lengthy prologue.

> From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
> There's a SEQUEL??  Title?  Date?
> Yet you say the sequel isn't as good?

The sequel is A DREAM OF KINSHIP, published by Timescape Books.  I
can't recall the exact date (my copy is packed away right now), but
it was somewhen circa 1982, I think.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Subject: Gravity drives
From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeffrey Smith)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1985 14:31 EDT

    In the book "LifeProbe" (which, by the way, has a sequal
"Procyon's Promise") the propulsion for Earthie ships and the
LifeProbe was a gravity-using drive. Matter was thrown into very
small black holes that had been given a high rate of spin. The
matter would be whipped around, given energy and thrown out again,
and the ship moved via one of Newton's laws. Michael McCollum
explained it a lot better than I did, but you get the drift.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 04:34:18-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, etc.

> From: cstvax!bobg     (Bob Gray)
> DOLSON@USC-ECLB.ARPA writes:
>>       ...  its called "The Time of the Hawklords" and was written
>> with Michael Butterworth, C. 1976.
>>
>> Doug
> This was the first volume in a planned trilogy. The second volume
> was published in 197{8,9} written by Moorcock on his own. It was
> called something like "The Queen of delerium". I have never heard
> of the third volume in the series. Does anyone out there know if
> it was ever published? Nine years is a long time to wait to find
> out what happens after the setting up for the sequel done in vol
> 2.

(1) QUEEN OF DELIRIA was written by *Butterworth* alone, not
        Moorcock.

(2) Though Moorcock is co-credited on TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, he did
        little or no actual writing on the book.

(3) The third book, LEDGE OF DARKNESS, may have come out in England,
        but it never appeared in the US.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

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        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 05:58:00-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Michael Moorcock

> From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
> Moorcock's first published writing was a trilogy of Martian
> stories that are HIGHLY reminiscent of the John Carter series.

Not even close. The Martian trilogy (originally published as by
Edward P. Bradbury) was published in 1965. Moorcock wrote and
published dozens of short stories prior to this, some of them being
cobbled together into book form. He also published two novels that
didn't already appear as short pieces, including a novel in the
Sexton Blake mystery series (as by Desmond Reid).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

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        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 00:30:44 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: End of Civilization stories

>From: Holbrook.OsbuSouth@Xerox.ARPA
>favorites: 'Earth Abides' by George Stewart.  This novel
>is from the 50's.

That remains my favorite disaster SF, and I've read quite a few.  A
lot have been listed, but I don't think any of them matches up to
this one.  It's a little bit dated, but very little, considering.
Almost any other SF you read that is as old as this requires
*substantial* suspension of disbelief.  I have always hoped that
someday I would discover other stuff by this author; I never have.
It is underplayed, but not boring.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 04:52:53-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Juanita Coulson (actually Thomas Stratton)

> From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold)
> To the best of my recollection, David McDaniel informed me that
> Man from U.N.C.L.E. books #11 and #12 (by "Thomas Stratton")
> featuring colorless Wisconsin margarine as one of the plot
> elements--had actually been written by Buck and Juanita Coulson.

Every reference that I've seen on "Thomas Stratton" states that "he"
is Robert "Buck" Coulson and Gene DeWeese, not Coulson and his wife
Juanita. "Thomas" is DeWeese's first name (Eugene is actually his
middle name) and "Stratton" is Coulson's middle name.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

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        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 85 11:38:00 EDT
From: OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA
Subject: gravity (title request?)

Since the subject of gravity has recently been brought up (ugh) I
remember reading a short story long ago about a truck driver
(perhaps he had a scientist friend) who learned to control
gravitons.  He would overload his truck, and just out of range of
the terminal dump all the gravitons so the load weighed almost
nothing and thus made the driving much faster, easier, and less wear
on the truck.  Shortly before reaching his destination, he would
stop under a big concrete railroad bridge to grab some gravitons and
up his cargo to approximately the correct weight.  Among other
problems - after a while he had removed so many gravitons from the
bridge that it broke up and floated away.
 Anyone else remember this?

Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind -- and Deep Fix
Date: 7 Aug 85 15:12:52 GMT

nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes:
>> From: 4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@ymir.ARPA (Will Duquette)
>> I do believe that Moorcock actually "created" the band in his
>> books about Jerry Cornelius.... So far as I know, the *real* band
>> got their inspiration from this.
>>
>> Anybody know for sure?
>Well, I find this hard to believe since Michael Moorcock is a
>sometimes member of Hawkwind, but not a founding member.

Sorry, lads. The band MM was involved with is called The Deep Fix.
Better luck next time.

Be Seeing You.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 15:18 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Anaheim Creation

I can suppy info on the upcoming Creation in Anaheim.  It was
cancelled.  At the last Creation in LA, one of the Creation folks
told me that attendance at the recent LA area cons has been down,
they were unable to get a big name (ie, Leonard Nimoy) to come to
Anaheim, as they'd hoped, so they cancelled.

Lisa
ST Welcommittee

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 21:57 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: why nobody's visited
To: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A.ARPA

The story was by Isaac Asimov, I think, although I don't remember
the name.  However, you haven't got it quite right.  The "advanced
race" was humanity, and we didn't die out from boredom, but due to a
giant space walrus (-:)) (or something) which we couldn't stop and
couldn't escape due to not knowing any other star systems (actually,
I think we'd found one, but the space walrus was going to eat it,
too.)  One human is resurrected, and he conquers the entire less
advanced race (or at least makes a good start.)  I'll try and see if
I can find the name of the story.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 85 09:48:44 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Those inquisitive aliens
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Dave Newman (Newman.pasa@Xerox) writes:
>Any alien in the solar system will notice us on Earth!!! ...  It is
>very easy to see that something is happening on Earth if you look
>at a night-time picture of North America; you can identify most of
>the major population centers by the size and approximate location
>of the blob of light that sits there.

From a low orbit (i.e. a LandSat satellite, from which we get those
pretty pictures) only.   From the distance of the moon, such
features are invisible.  In fact, ALL signs of civilization (except
for radio emissions, of which enough has already been said) are
invisible.
                                        --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 07:04:24-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX

> From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)

> With a few notable exceptions, critical endeavors in the field of
> science fiction have been nonexistent.
> What efforts we have seen have been notable more for the fact that
> they have actually been published, than for what they necessarily
> contain. Delany's "The Jewel-Hinged Jaw" and LeGuin's essays are
> exceptions, and there certainly are others.

Horse puckey. Before writing an essay, it helps to do a little basic
research. You obviously have not seen any issues of:

(1) EXTRAPOLATION, founded by Thomas Clareson in 1959 (!), published
semi-annually by the English Department of Wooster (Ohio) College.
It is considered to be the official journal of the Modern Languages
Association Seminar on Science Fiction.

(2) FOUNDATION: THE REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION, a British journal
from North East London Polytechnic, started in 1972.

(3) SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES, originally from Indiana State
University (I believe that it now comes out of McGill University,
but I'm not sure). One of the founding editors, Darko Suvin, is a
Professor of English at McGill University and has had critical works
on sf published in a wide variety of places.

FOUNDATION and SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES have had reprints in
hardcover from Gregg Press.

Clareson (EXTRAPOLATION) is also one of the foremost figures in sf
criticism, having founded the Science Fiction Research Association,
which was created to foster literary criticism in the sf field.
Clareson has also edited numerous anthologies of sf criticism, such
as SF: THE OTHER SIDE OF REALISM (1977) and MANY FUTURES, MANY
WORLDS: THEME AND FORM IN SCIENCE FICTION (1977). He also published
SF CRITICISM: AN ANNOTATED CHECKLIST (1972) which is quite extensive
(despite its being 13 years out of date!).

And I myself have about 4 feet of bookshelf space devoted to
scholarly studies and criticism on sf and sf authors, including some
of the aforementioned works.

> But it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science
> fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors
> currently working in the field. And due to the sociological
> factors of their group, science fiction writers, even Delany and
> LeGuin, pull their punches and let people off the proverbial hook.

You obviously have not read any of the criticism by James Blish as
William Atheling (ISSUES AT HAND and MORE ISSUES AT HAND) or Damon
Knight (IN SEARCH OF WONDER). They are quite uncompromising.

> Very often the first response to adverse criticism is "Let's see
> you do better".

While I have seen this type of response here and there, I have *not*
seen it with the frequency that you imply. How about giving some
supporting examples?

I didn't respond to your previous essays because for the most part
they dealt with matters of opinion (and besides, others raised many
of the points that I would've raised).  But in this essay, you spew
forth "facts" that are anything but. Instead of making up "facts"
that you wish were true, try examining the evidence that is there
for anyone to see.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  9 Aug 1985 07:14:10-PDT
From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: Critics and SF

Davis Tucker writes:
> Authors often forget that it's better to be terribly excoriated in
>print than simply ignored, that anything is preferable to being
>overlooked.
> There's the science fiction paraphrase of the Republican's 11th
>Commandment - "Thou shalt not speak ill of thou fellow authors".
>Which is understandable.  But there's no group of people who fill
>in the void, who provide their readership with accurate insights
>into the work behind the work, who tell readers what they can
>expect, and why or why not this work is any good.

It is my impression that you are describing the feeling that
criticism is valid only if it savagely rips apart everything.  You
use words like "objective" and "accurate", and yet state that
authors should welcome being "terribly excoriated in print".  Isn't
it possible for a critic to admit that something might actually be
good?  Granted that 90% of everything is crap, that means that there
is SOME good stuff.

It seems to me that critics are only happy when either decrying the
lousy taste of the public by automatically condemning any work which
sells well, or lauding to the skies a work which most people (me)
find totally unapproachable.  I gave up on the New York Times Book
Review column for precisely this reason.  I grant you that tastes
differ, but that doesn't mean that the public (me again) is
incapable of finding out *BY THEMSELVES* whether "this work is any
good".

I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you whether
it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read".  To me this
indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have nothing to
do with each other.  Thank you, I will ignore both *ART* and critics
who talk about *ART* because I have found this bias to be
pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally gives me no
pleasure.  (I am thinking specifically of a New Yorker magazine
review of "Star Wars (A New Hope)" which ignored the movie to talk
about the deep philisophical implications of droids.  It missed the
entire point of the movie).  I will read reviewers who tell me "if
its a good read".
                                                        Ken Moreau

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 85 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #318
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 318

Today's Topics:

               Books - Delany & Haldeman & Harrison &
                       Niven & Zelazny,
               Films - Captain Eo,
               Miscellaneous - A Request & SF as Literature &
                       Things to Fear & The Problems with SF &
                       Black Holes & Gravity & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hpfcla!ajs@topaz.arpa (ajs)
Subject: Re: Dhalgren
Date: 6 Aug 85 00:25:00 GMT

> I haven't met many sci-fi readers who don't hold this book with
> anything less than awe.

I hold it at arm's length, other hand pinching nostrils.  I forced
myself to read it all the way through, hoping for a punch line that
would make it worthwhile.  As a literary device it may have merit;
as mental masturbation, perhaps some would find it stimulating.  As
entertainment it fails miserably: it's dark, gloomy, rambling,
pointless.  No new visions, no wondrous revelations.  Don't waste
your time.

Alan Silverstein

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 01:34:00 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: "Time travel"

>From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
>There is a novel about a "draftee" who fights in a war where the
>distances involved are great and FTLD is used. . .  During one of
>his early shore leaves, he meets a woman who "waits" for him on a
>relativistic shuttle that operates to keep in synch with the
>solders.  (author and title unknown but I'm sure someone can put
>their finger on it)

It's gotta be Haldeman's _Forever War_.  The woman waits for him
only after they have been split by the army or whatever.  She's a
soldier, too.  This is a beautifully ironic treatment of war, and
Mandella makes a terrific Everyman.
                                      Pacifistically,
                                      Paula

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry
Subject: Harrison
Date: 8 Aug 85 16:52:07 GMT

Don't forget the sequels:

The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You
             and
The Stainless Steel Rat for President

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Aug 85 21:49:04-EDT
From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors (SFL V10#313)

>  Bigger question, though.  This one has always bothered me about
>Niven's universe.  What the heck happens to Home after the
>Protectors left to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win,
>because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.  But what
>happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating
>in the atmosphere ?  It bugs me.

My guess would be that the Home Protectors continue to keep the
human race as a whole as its charge, looking out for us and keeping
us out of trouble. The Home colony was given as a failure in the
timeline in "Tales of Known Space", and "Protector" has, at least
for me, the impression of being a report that was never seen by most
of humanity - the Protectors probably just kept Home for themselves
as a base. Keep in mind that Protectors live a LONG time,
O(10Kyears), so they need not even supplement their numbers very
often. Maybe the Puppeteer "eugenics" program for Kzinti and humans
is really the result of the Protectors manipulating the
Puppeteers... It protects humanity from its most dangerous adversary
to date, and makes more sense than the Puppeteers just doing it
because "they like humans" (as stated in "Ringworld Engineers").

        --Vince

------------------------------

From: goedel!danl@topaz.arpa (Dan Lencina)
Subject: 'Want review of "Trumps of Doom"'
Date: 9 Aug 85 05:17:03 GMT

I've only started to read net.sf-lovers recently, so perhaps I
missed it, but I'm surprised that no-one has said *anything* about
Roger Zelazny's new Amber book, ``Trumps of Doom''.

I can't find and can't afford it in hard-cover, so perhaps somebody
would take pity on me and post a non- or semi-spoiler review.

                                        Dan L.
                                        (aka Dan Lencina)
                                        danl%sbcsgoedel@sbcs.CSNET

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: "Captain Eo"
Date: 7 Aug 85 22:04:36 GMT

Since no one else has mentioned this little wonder yet, I figured I
should.  "Captain Eo" is one of the most unlikely collaborations I
have heard of in years.  Minute for minute, it may be the most
expensive film ever made.

The unholy quartet involved in "Captain Eo" are 1). Disney Studios
(studio), 2). George Lucas (producer), 3). Francis Coppola
(director), and 4). Michael Jackson (star).  The film is sf/fantasy,
is set to be fifteen minutes long, and is rumored to be budgeted
somewhere between $10 and $15 million.  The resulting special
effects extravaganza will be shown only at special theaters in
Disney amusement parks.

The most interesting pairings are Disney and Jackson, and Lucas and
Coppola.  This is apparently another example of the New Deal at
Disney studios, which is producing films with Bette Midler and
Madonna, in addition to the fey Mr. Jackson.  Lucas and Coppola were
originally good friends, with Coppola giving Lucas several of his
first breaks.  They quarreled (or so it is rumored) over "American
Graffiti", and the word was that they more or less weren't speaking
to each other.  Now they seem to be friendly again.  Ironicly,
they've switched their old roles.  It used to be Coppola who
produced films directed by Lucas.

I think "Captain Eo" will appear in Disney amusement parks some time
next year.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 85 12:47:32 EDT
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: quoting past messages

Could people PLEASE stop quoting the entire message they're replying
to?  We've already READ the message.  If you can't make your
comments coherent without making us read the entire message again,
please don't make comments.  I don't know why I'm bothering, since
we just had a flame about this recently and there's been no
decrease.

Use your head.  Sometimes, quoting the reply helps, like when your
making a point by point reply, as in the last issue.  But usually a
point by point reply isn't warranted either.  Let's keep the volume
down!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 00:58:26 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: sf as literature discussion

>From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
>my way of enjoying SF doesn't diminish yours or anyone
>else's in this group.  If you don't care for criticism, skip
>over the critical discussions when you read the news.

Alas, if only I could, especially now that we've been warned that
there's more coming.  Some of us get the whole kit-and- caboodle as
*one* message.  Either we plow through those postings which bore us
(and which invariably seem interminable), or forget the whole thing.
I finally decided the only way to deal with it was *not* to look at
my e-mail until I could leave my workstation and go to a hard-wired
terminal.  200-300 lines of criticism (choke) ruin my whole day at
300 baud.

Personally, I read SF as a literature of *ideas*.  If the writer
hasn't had an interesting or original thought, or some particular
insight into human or other interesting nature, it's trash to me.  A
particularly good example of a novel loaded with fascinating ideas
and nauseous narrative was Robert Forward's first, Dragon's Egg.
[He has improved, marvelously.  That wouldn't necessarily have taken
much.]  But there have been few stories--ever--so full of
fascinating concepts.

I guess I've got my own standards of criticism.

                                     Paula

------------------------------

Date: Fri 9 Aug 85 17:57:52-EDT
From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Scary things

From uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
>The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the
>hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a
>grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely
>remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get rid
>of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the
>attempt.
>
>I think the thing about it that freaked me out most, was that you
>(the viewer) never actually saw the doll move. It would just appear
>in certain places, with that twisted little face staring at you.
>Very effective.  Very Serling.
>
>Anyone remember a little more about it?

I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but there was a
TZ episode about a girl who had a doll that her father hated, and it
then proceeded to make threats to him, etc...  He attempted to
destroy it (freaking out his wife + kid by doing so), but couldn't
do it (the buzzsaw he used just sent up sparks on contact with it,
when he threw it in the trash it came back, etc...). It then said,
in a very sweet, dolly voice, "I'm going to kill you."

It did. (via him tripping on it and falling down the stairs...)

On the original subject, things that have scared us, I submit the
following:

1. Waking up from a frightening dream...to find that the fright is
real...  (Or a dream-witin-a-dream... _An_American_Werewolf_In_
London_ had a good one of these...)

2. Having things that are very close to you become frightening (your
mother sprouts fangs and glowing yellow eyes and tries to kill you)

3. Any story where the fright seemed to be so REAL that you could
say "That could happen to me tomorrow..."

Gub (Glen Daniels, Gub%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 09:21 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: The problems with SF today...

Davis Tucker writes:
>Has science fiction built such a wall around itself that no
>self-respecting critic will vault over it?

I don't know whether that's the case or not, but I remember reading
a criticism by the book critic of one of the major news magazines -
Newsweek.  The critic was talking about Michaelmas by Algys Budrys
(sp?). Anyway, he began his review by stating that he had read
hardly any science fiction but that this book was not like typical
science fiction. My question is, if he hasn't read much science
fiction, how can he know what "typical science fiction" is like?

I agree with the major points of your posting, but I'm not sure that
SF is entirely to blame. Many people have preconceived notions as to
what SF is like and aren't interested in actually reading some SF to
find out if their preconceptions are, indeed, true. I believe this
is what has caused the hard, defensive shell (or wall) to form
around the genre. Many times in my past I've been asked how I could
stand to read such garbage. In every case, the person asking had
either 1) never read SF or 2) read one or two books or anthologies
(and if it was anthologies they had read they were always
collections of stories published in the 30's and 40's). Fortunately,
that sort of thing is happening less and less, but the attitude
still prevails in many places (now people think SF is just Star Wars
in book form) and, unfortunately, many of the people holding those
opinions seem to be critics...

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: enmasse!frankr@topaz.arpa (Franklin Reynolds)
Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes
Date: 9 Aug 85 13:41:37 GMT

wmartin@brl-bmd.UUCP writes:
>I was thinking about the "anti-matter vs. matter" qualities of what
>is inside a black hole, and, at first, was going to agree with the
>contention that, no matter the nature of the matter that formed the
>black hole, once falls inside, it loses those qualities and becomes
>like unto the primordial ylem (do physicists still use that term?)
>or at least undefinable.
>
>Then I thought of the contentions that I have read that the entire
>observable universe could be inside a black hole. Since the radius
>goes up with the mass, the average density of a hole with the
>universe's mass is rather close to the real average density of the
>universe... So this would have to depend then on the mass of the
>black hole, would it not?  After all, a black hole containing our
>universe could be orbiting a black hole containing an anti-matter
>universe...

The way I think it is supposed to work is that there is no
difference between a "normal" black hole and an anti-matter black
hole from the outside. What is going on inside (within the event
horizon) is undetectable to an outside observer. You can think of
black holes as write-only ROMs, you can add stuff to them, but you
can't get anything back.

If a "normal" black hole collided with an anti-matter black hole an
outside observer would see a larger black hole as the result. There
is no telling what would happen on the inside of the new black hole.

Franklin Reynolds
Enmasse Computer Corp.
genrad!enmasse!frankr

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john)
Subject: Re: a Matter of Gravity...
Date: 8 Aug 85 00:57:00 GMT

>Somebody mentioned that Gravity acted only on matter.  The one
>catch is, the equations which make up Einsteinian (?) physics all
>depend on matter being interchangeable with energy, where gravity
>is defined as a form of energy.

  A good example is the planet Vulcan (Yes there really was one).
One of the best ways to discover a new planet was to chart the
orbits of the known planets and see if you could spot any
perturbation in their orbit that might be caused by an unseen
neighbor. Several of the outer ones were discovered using this
method. Anyway, someone noticed that Mercury had a wobble in its
orbit that suggested another planet orbiting between it and the Sun.
This "planet" was dubbed Vulcan and astronomers tried unsuccesfully
for years to try and find it.

  It turned out that the wobble was due to the gravitational effect
from the "mass equivalent" of the suns gravitational field. The
energy in the field was equivalent to a certain amount of mass and
if you considered the effect of this mass the mercury was doing what
it was supposed to do.

  A more complete disscussion can be found in Asimov's "The Planet
that wasn't".

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 01:15:00 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Talking to aliens

>From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>How many ideas from STAR WARS were new and perceptive.  If I speak
>to a Frenchman either I speak French or he speaks English. . . . If
>I were holding the conversation with an alien, it might be
>impossible to speak his language at all.  In STAR WARS all
>conversations between mutual aliens were conducted with each side
>speaking his own language and only understanding the alien
>language. That is certainly what would have to be done in an
>intergalactic civilization, but the idea appeared first in STAR
>WARS to the best of my knowledge.

Hate to tell you, but Suzette Haden Elgin used this idea in THE
SEVENTH LEVEL, which definitely was published before STAR WARS was
made.  It may not have been original with her, either.

                                   Communicatively,
                                   Paula

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 85 0948-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #319
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 319

Today's Topics:

           Books - Rosenberg & Zelazny & Female Authors &
                   Age Differences,
           Films - Back to the Future & Thunder Warriors &
                   Sexism,
           Miscellaneous - Gravity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re: Guardians of the Flame
Date: 9 Aug 85 18:00:29 GMT

        While the characterizations may not be optimal this is due
to the fact that this was taken from a role playing game.  Not all
characters in the game campaign will be played by an animated
player, so often the game master (DM) or whoever wrote this had to
create the characterization from impression alone.  Add to this the
fact that the author of this book is probably not a true "writer" in
the sense that this type of book is a recreation of sequential
events, which are not neccesarily his/her ideas, rather than a full
creation of the writer's imagination.

        The ending to the third book clearly shows the constant game
player that this is created from a game:

        DM:     So you've killed the lord and there's no
                ruler in the area, unrest threatens...

        Players: Hmmm......

Solution: Well since in this setting all this area belongs to the
king who is an npc (non-playing character) why not make the game
interesting and reward the pc (player) for succesfully making it
through the campaign.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 85 13:04:26 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Magic vs. science

>From: wateng!clelau@topaz.arpa (Eric C.L. Lau)
>I think Zelzany wrote another book called _The_Changeling_ about
>something like this.
>The setting was a parallel universe to our own where magic
>functions.  It was about how two babies got switched between the
>two universes by a powerful magician.  The one from the "magical"
>universe grows up not quite fitting in the "scientific" universe.
>The one from the "scientific" universe has the same problem but
>uses the scientific knowledge that comes naturally to him to
>attempt to take over his world.  Eventually the confrontation is
>between the two characters and between science and magic.

Your memory was right on.  There is a sequel, titled Madwand.  I
have seen/heard Changeling flamed, but I kinda liked it.  All the
magic appeared to work by perfectly logical rules-- much more
believable than abracadabra/anything goes.  I did not enjoy Madwand
as much, but it was still a fair read.

                                  Multiversally,
                                  Paula

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Re:
Subject: Tepper/McKillip/women_authors/reposting_of_mutilated_article
Date: 9 Aug 85 18:11:33 GMT

dim@cbuxc.UUCP (Dennis McKiernan) writes:
> Sheri Tepper has a wonderful gift: with a few sketches of her
> authorial pen she draws an entire culture/civilization.  The world
> of the *True Game* is drawn so.

Ok, so far.

> And I cannot but admire her "chasm" civilization that Mavin
> visited in book 2 of the Mavin Manyshaped saga.  God!  Bridgers,
> Maintainers, etc.; giant roots reaching down past the Lost Bridge,
> all the way to the bottom; cutting roots on each side just the
> right length to reach one another and be grafted together to form
> a span; she has a wonderful imagination!

FLAME ON:

As far as I know, this is very similar to them common Ant Farm or
Bee's nest.  For all we know, it could be! (Think about it...)

FLAME OFF.

Now, it was decent description and the mystery of the fallen level
was cool, but the goo-goo ga-ga stuff was really carried away.

> In recent discussions on the net, several have pointed out that
> many of their favorite authors are women.  Risking being called a
> male chauvanist, I believe that women *in general* are better at
> describing/understanding the internals of a character, and of
> showing character growth, whereas men are better at detailing
> action and describing how-things-work.

My main complaint about some women authors is that they sometimes
get carried away with a particular notion:

Example 1) Marion Zimmer Bradley who is perhaps the greatest FEMALE
           chauvanist I have ever read!  (Although I did like a few
           of her books and Darkover collections).

Example 2)) I love magic.  MacAvoy describes witchery unbelieveably
            well in Damiano.  But then she makes him mundane, and
            then Raphael too?!  In the Book of Kells she gets this
            great time/dimension door idea with the cross, but
            that's it.  I asked her at an SF convention why she
            strays away from the magic, and her reply was that
            basically, she has a zen kind of approach and considers
            man alone, without magic and powers, to be enough of a
            topic.

Unfortunately, sf & fantasy in my opinion deal in out of the norm.
power so I have ceased to read her works, although I will grab the
sequel to Tea when it comes out.

Moshe Eliovson
{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 85 12:40:18 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF using lover's age differences

>>From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
>>I'm speaking of the age of the male characters compared to that of
>>the female characters.  Varley's men are almost always twice (or
>>more) the age of the women they end up with...It's not something I
>>mind, it's just something I found curious... Has anyone else
>>noticed this or am I just imagining it?

>From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden)
>Larry Niven tends to have a great age mismatch between his lovers,
>also.  For instance, in Ringworld we have Teela Brown and Louis Wu.
>And who can forget the lady with the horrible long name that Louis
>finally gets?  (I'm not at home, so can't look it up.)  There are
>other examples, also.

>What other SF writers have used this device?

The lady with the horrible long name was Halrloprillar, more
frequently referred to as Prill.

This device is more common than most people notice.  Heinlein uses
it with increasingly boring frequency in more recent years.  An
earlier (and more entertaining) occasion was in Glory Road.  I think
it's more common in fantasy (which Glory Road was) than in SF.

               ** SPOILERS ** SPOILERS ** SPOILERS **

David Brin used it in Sundiver.  Jacob Demwa is a young man, and the
captain is only *relativistically* young.

Sturgeon used age differences a few times.  In "When You Love, When
You Care," the heroine hires the development of cold sleep so that
she can wait for a clone of her lover to grow up.  Which is a plot
device in at least one other story [but I can't remember the author
or title].

Poul Anderson used it in The Man Who Counts and a few other times,
I'm pretty sure.  Asimov's hero in The Gods Themselves winds up with
a much younger woman on the moon.  In McCaffrey's Crystal Singer,
Killashandra is taken to the Guild by her *much* older lover.
Marion Zimmer Bradley has a timeflow difference in House Between
Worlds, and some couples who couldn't otherwise have happened.  Phil
Jose Farmer has 19 impossible things before breakfast, in most of
his stuff.  You can find lots of misassorted couples, like the World
of Tier series.  There are some striking age differentials in some
of Silverberg's Majipoor love stories.  Lafferty also has some
strange bedfellows.  Vonda McIntyre's novel set in the same future
as Dreamsnake has the hero coming to Earth as companion to an aged,
dying woman pilot.  You'll find lots of age mis-assortment in
Zelazny's Amber series, as well as in things like "Rose for
Ecclesiastes."  And there's always such classic stuff as H. Rider
Haggard's She.

I know that this does not by any means exhaust the store of such
things.  One of the more popular assumptions of future settings for
SF stories is either life-extension or anti-thanatics.  Both of
these *will* produce a greater availability of interactions.  I just
remembered somebody's construct--the Struldbrugs, and one story with
a very young woman who is fascinated with her lovers fantastic
collection of wrinkles and scars.  Can't remember the author.
Somebody will, I'm sure.  (Silverbob?)
                              Ain't love strange?
                              Paula

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: BTTF:Production Design
Date: 5 Aug 85 21:56:55 GMT

psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes:
>Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>>       Does anybody know which town they redecorated?
>I hate to tell you this, but the downtown area in BACK TO THE
>FUTURE looked a lot like the generic downtown in the Universal
>studios lot.

Having been on the lot the day I saw the movie, I can answer this
definitively: The downtown scenes from BTTF were shot on the "Town
Square" lot at Universal.  Incidentally, the cats on either side of
the clock are the same ones used in the remake of "Cat People".

                                                        -- Scott

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: THUNDER WARRIORS
Date: 7 Aug 85 04:00:44 GMT

THUNDER WARRIORS is Canon Group's rip-off of the Mad Max movies.  In
retrospect, I'm surprised that no one has tried to rip-off the
concept before this.

THUNDER WARRIORS is set after the fall of civilization due to a
nuclear war.  The war was started by the Americans when the missile
alert system failed and erroneously reported a Soviet missile
attack.  [You'll be pleased to know that, despite destroying the
world as a bad side-effect, America won the war.]  The main feature
of society after the crash is that the sexes have divided into two
camps.  The women live in a small fortified city, supporting
themselves by farming.  The men live nomadic lives in the
surrounding hills, often in areas of dangerous radioactivity.  In
general, the women dominate the men, primarily due to their higher
level of civilization (i.e., better weapons).  The women
occaisonally visit a place of "seeding" where captured men specially
trained for stud service impregnate them.

The plot follows rather haphazardly the careers of a man who will in
time become the leader of the men and a woman who will become the
leader of the women.

Now, I know what you are thinking.  You are saying to yourself,
Self, I know exactly what is going to happen.  The men and the women
are going to come into conflict.  The man leader is going to have to
deal with the woman leader.  Somehow, they are going to fall in
love, and magically, the two sides are going to be unified and
everything ends happily ever after.

Well.  Yes.

Besides being utterly predictable and boring (ho hummmm) this movie
has a number of other glaring faults.  For starters, the acting is
terrible.  The two main characters in the men's camp give passable
performances, but nearly every female character is horribly
over-played or acted with wooden technique.  The only bright spot
amongst the cast is the fawning old man who is the keeper of the
toys (the young male children in the female camp, who have no point
at all).  He plays an outrageously campy old queen, and provides a
desperately needed bit of comic relief.  Of course, the script helps
him a bit: Near the end of the film he gets knifed in the back.
Blood spurts out of his mouth, and he falls to the ground a sure
goner.  Moments later he struggles to lift his head.  He has to warn
the men's camp!  Painfully he begins to crawl away.  Several days
later we spot him again, still crawling, now several miles away from
the women's camp, still desperately trying to reach the men.  Played
straight, I swear!

Some other particularly bad points:

 o Mutation is equal to blue fruit in the minds of these
   film-makers.

 o A cassette tape left over from before the war proves to have
   Wagner's Valkyrie and JLL's Whole Lotta Shaking Going On on it
   back to back.

 o The women are constantly fighting in some of the most poorly
   choreographed fight scenes ever to grace nitrate stock.  The
   scenes where the women fight the men are particularly bad.

 o In a post-holocaust world where living is a day to day struggle,
   the women find time to have their hair professionally done.  They
   also apparently found a huge cache of make-up.

 o A scene many feminists should find repugnant: One of the woman
   characters is sent for her seeding, an event she finds obviously
   distasteful and counter to her beliefs.  In fact, she is tied to
   the bed.  Yet, once the act starts, she begins to enjoy it, and
   at the end of the film ends up with her seeder.

The most annoying facet of the movie was the complete ignorance the
film-makers demonstrated concerning human psychology.  The seeding
scene above is one example.  There is no homosexuality in either
camp.  Neither the men nor the women have any sexual motivation.
Lifelong slaves are freed and, upon bathing, become free men in
every way.  Despite years of antipathy, the two leaders fall in love
(and in bed) immediately.  (They also magically know what to do once
they get there.)

In short, we are talking about a bad, bad film here.  Far and away
the worst film I have seen in a LONG time.  Even worse (gulp!) than
European Vacation.  (Un)Fortunately, I saw it at a studio preview,
so it may never see the light of day.  We can but hope.

                                                -- Scott

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Spielberg Sexist?
Date: 6 Aug 85 05:29:00 GMT

Two great fallacies about Spielberg movies:

1) All that Steven Spielberg touches turns to gold.  In evidence
against this, I would like to mention "~The Sugarland Express"
(something like that), which was one of SS's earlier films and went
over like a lead balloon.  There may have been some extenuating
circumstances: "Sugarland" was based, very closely, upon a true
story.  An interesting thing: after this flopped, it took SS a long
time to get anyone to even think about hiring him.

2) SS has never had a major female character.  Although Princess
Leia is not exactly Kate Hepburn, she isn't all sweetness and light
either.  Much of her problem stems from Hollywood typescripting.
However, in "Sugarland" SS had Goldie Hawn playing the main
character, who happened to have a very strong personality.  This
also may have had something to do with the film's short life.  The
funny thing is, "Sugarland" is re-run fairly often on late-night
T.V., esp. CBS
                                                orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: a Matter of Gravity...
Date: 6 Aug 85 05:34:00 GMT

Somebody mentioned that Gravity acted only on matter.  The one catch
is, the equations which make up Einsteinian (?) physics all depend
on matter being interchangeable with energy, where gravity is
defined as a form of energy.  T'other catch is, those fundamental
equations also state that all energy is interdependent, and we'll
know how when we get a working Unified field Theory.

BTW, we can make black holes.  It just takes far to much effort to
build one at this late date in man's exploration of space.

                                        orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 85 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #320
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 320

Today's Topics:

             Books - Delany & Van Vogt & Some Reviews,
             Music - More SF in Music,
             Miscellaneous - Colonization & Contacting Authors &
                     Paying Convention Guests & Ewoks & 
                     Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren
Date: 7 Aug 85 18:49:12 GMT

Dhalgren is a lot easier to understand and appreciate once you know
about a few of Delany's learning disabilities.  First, Delany is an
epileptic who is prone to petit mal fits that wipe out his memories
of the past short while.  Second, Delany has a learning disability
that makes it difficult for him to remember the temporal order of
his experiences: in other words, he often can't remember what came
first in a sequence of events.  Third, he has a form of dyslexia
that slows his reading considerably.  Fourth, he has a poor spatial
memory, which means that he often can't remember exactly where
things were.

Dhalgren is his attempt to convey his experiences to the reader.
The hero has significant memory problems.  For example, he
constantly finds material in his notebook that he can't remember
writing.  He occasionally thinks the buildings have moved closer or
further away from the river.  The order of events is constantly
confused.  The hero frequently has a good deal of difficulty
reading.

Many people feel that Dhalgren goes on too long without clarifying
anything.  On the other hand, if you see it as an attempt to give
the reader an experience of the author's world, you _have_ to take a
fair amount of time so you can adjust and begin to feel at home.  By
the end of Dhalgren, I more or less understood what had happened and
the order in which it happened.  If you can accept the total mental
disorientation, I think the vividness of the imagery is well worth
the read.  One warning though: it is hard to say that Dhalgren has a
story as such.  A general requirement of a "story" is that a
sequence of events changes a character or set of characters in some
way.  I'm not sure that anyone is changed by the events in Dhalgren
(which may be Delany's point).  Therefore you get the feeling that
nothing has been accomplished.  A better way to approach the book is
to regard it as a form of poetry (odd concept though that is).

Most people don't find Dhalgren their cup of tea, and I can
certainly understand that.  However, Delany can write the socks off
practically any other modern writer, even when you hate his
material.  It's well worth anyone's while to go to the library and
take out Dhalgren to see if you like it.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@topaz.arpa (Don Chitwood)
Subject: A.E. Van Vogt's 3rd Null-A Novel
Date: 10 Aug 85 00:15:01 GMT

I just finished the latest A.E. Van Vogt Null-A novel (damned if I
can remember the name of it.), copyright July l985.

The first two, The Worlds of Null-A and Pawns of Null-A, are two of
my all-time favorites, particularly since they introduced me to the
field of General Semantics.  With this one, I'm disappointed,
largely because he comes up with a pretty good conceptual followup
to the first two, but he bungles the story with his difficult
writing style.

In this latest novel, it was apparent to me that many years had gone
by since the last one was written.  The feel of the characters is
just too modern.  Their language has lots of contemporary slang.  My
biggest difficulty with the book was the jumping-around style van
Vogt affects.  From the very beginning, I had to re-read sections to
discover that we were now on earth or in a spaceship or etc.  He
makes lots of assumptions, rather Gosseyn does, that fly in the face
of General Semantics thinking.

Hmm, since I wanted this to be a non-spoiler and I don't have the
book in front of me to excerpt examples, this is about the extent of
my comments.  In summary, he blew it.  Makes me mad.

Don Chitwood
Teklabs
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: Comments on Recent Reads
Date: 8 Aug 85 19:17:43 GMT

Some various comments on recent reads, namely LYONESSE by Vance and
JHEREG/YENDI by Steven Brust.

LYONESSE is a new fantasy by Vance.  It is actually the first book
in a series according to the title page.  The cover doesn't mention
this, which I take to be deceptive advertising at its worst, but
perhaps it only signals that publishers are becoming as wary of
multi-book fantasies as the general reading public.  The story
follows the political happenings in a set of islands south of
England off the coast of France, an island chain that later sunk,
leaving behind some of the mythology of England (Avalon) and
Ireland.  Principally the story focuses on a Prince Aillar and his
travails as he attempts to find his son.  However the story is less
personal than most fantasies.

One interesting thing about LYONESSE is its structure.  LYONESSE is
written in the style halfway between a history textbook and the
modern novel.  At times the book is very dry and impersonal; at
times it follows rather closely the affairs of one or another
character and approaches the modern novel.  To add to this, the
episodes within the novel are often of the classic fairy tale form:
a young man, away from home, gifted with this or the other magical
implement, confronting some monster.  As in a fairy tale, the
violence and death in the book is often dry and offhand, without any
of the "realistic" angst that has become a staple in the fantasy
genre.  Similarly, the solutions to many of the problems the
characters face come in bland, unexpectedly simple ways.

This may sound like a criticism, but in fact it isn't.  Vance's
style in LYONESSE is rather refreshing.  Fairy tales are quite fun
in their own right, and to have a number of them set in the
framework of a historical novel is peculiarly satisfying.  I'm not
sure everyone will enjoy this book, but I think everyone will find
the style quite interesting.

JHEREG/YENDI have already been discussed any number of times on the
net, so I won't go into any depth on these two books.  I found them
very enjoyable, perhaps some of the best fantasy I've read this
summer.  Reading them in close conjunction with LYONESSE made for an
interesting juxtaposition of styles.  Where LYONESSE reads like a
fairy tale, JHEREG/YENDI reads like a fantasy role-playing game --
so much so that I wonder whether the novels have some basis in FRP.
Perhaps not.  At any rate, J/Y are interesting in contrast to
LYONESSE because they are so modern in style.  Without great
modification J/Y could have been written about a struggle within
organized crime today -- and still have been good.  That is a
compliment to SKZB, of course: his work is good not because it is
fantasy, but despite being fantasy.  (And in retrospect only lowers
my opinion of To Reign In Hell.)

My only other comment on YENDI is to wonder whether the Monty Python
joke was intentional or not (on page 190 for those of you who missed
it).
                                                -- Scott

------------------------------

From: diku!kimcm@topaz.arpa (Kim Christian Madsen)
Subject: Re: SF in music--SUMMARY
Date: 11 Aug 85 06:59:15 GMT

Also missing is:

Pink Floyd      Saucerful of secrets & Wellcome to the machine.
David Bowie     Ashes to Ashes, Starman and Memory of a Free
                Festival.
Wings           Venus and Mars.
                                        Kim Chr. Madsen
                                a.k.a.  kimcm@diku.uucp

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 85 14:03:21 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: STL colonization and exponential growth

  Not a problem.  Warwick!simon@topaz ignores time dilation.
Whenever a solar system gets too crowded, people can travel to an
arbitrarily distant point in an arbitrarily short time by travelling
close enough to the speed of light.  Or they could use suspended
animation and travel slower.
  Anyway, it's silly to use arguments like this against space
colonization.  One solar system alone could easily support a
population of about 10**20 people, billions of times Earth's present
population.
  If only one person in a billion is a Mozart or an Einstein, think
how wonderful the arts and sciences would become with a solar
population of 10**20.  Or a galactic population of 10**30.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #303
Date: 9 Aug 85 19:47:42 GMT

>From: JFusco.es@Xerox.ARPA
>Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with Ray Bradbury,or his
>agent, short of going through his publishing company.  My wife's
>company would like to book him for a speaking engagement.

Sorry to post this rather than mailing, but I can't believe the path
I got would work....

I don't have Ray's address right at hand, but it can be gotten
(along with the address of practically any other writer, SF or
otherwise) from a reference book that most libraries have.  Call
your local library and ask the reference librarian.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken)
Subject: Re: Payment to guests at cons
Date: 10 Aug 85 13:58:16 GMT

The way I understand it, payment of guests varies from con to con.

If a local club decides to try to run a con, the stars will get less
than they'd get from Spirit of Light.  Room and board are both
covered (of course), as is all transportation.  Cons which do not
provide this often turn out to be terrible ones, for many reasons!

Precise figures, I do not know.  Probably around $1000 or so for
Colin Baker, less for companions.  Planning on running one? :-)

James C. Armstrong, Jnr.        {ihnp4,cbosgd,akgua}!abnji!nyssa

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: "cute" Ewoks
Date: 9 Aug 85 18:50:52 GMT

bnw@crash.UUCP writes:
>     There has been much speculation about the ability of little
>Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film.  I would
>agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so
>some of the item seen would have been built; another idea presented
>by someone here was that the Stormtroopers had been a problem for
>the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already been fighting
>back.
>     Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater
>capability than they have been credited with.  I think there has
>been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any
>possibility of heavy work quickly.  I submit, however, that four to
>six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty Ewoks, using
>a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the stripped log.
>Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile
>restrained by a keystone-type lever.

My doubts that the Ewoks could have prepared their defenses as
quickly as they did were not based on denigrating their physical
characteristics.  Let me clarify by stating that I don't think a
group of humans at the same cultural level could have built those
defenses in less than a few weeks, either.

There are several problems with a faster schedule.  First, note that
there must have been more defenses which were not triggered in the
movie.  The Ewoks had to prepare for walkers emerging from the
installation in any direction, unless they were to rely on really
incredible luck.

Second, note that the defenses were specifically oriented to
fighting the Imperials.  I do not think such a variety could have
been invented overnight; and even if invented, relatively few
craftsmen can make a new invention accurately the first time.  There
is a learning curve involved.  This is especially true for group
activities.

Finally, I think you underestimate the difficulty of building some
of these things with primitive tools.  Consider medieval siege
engines, which took weeks to build with better tools.  A pile of
logs (one of the simpler devices) seems trivial, but it must be set
up to be stable until you are ready to use it, then go rolling
quickly in the proper direction when released.  I would expect a
modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: The Great Silence
Date: 9 Aug 85 18:20:51 GMT

>From: <crash!bnw@Nosc>
>Perhaps the problem is simply that there is no reason why anyone
>should have found us.  This is an excerpt from _Cosmos_ by Dr. Carl
>Sagan.
>     ". . .If a great many years ago an advanced interstellar
>spacefaring civilization emerged 200 light-years away, it would
>have no reason to think there was anything special about the Earth
>unless it had been here already.  No artifact of human technology,
>not even our radio transmissions, has had time, even travelling at
>the speed of light, to go 200 light-years.  From their point of
>view, all nearby star systems are more or less equally attractive
>for exploration or colonization."
>     ". . .A sphere two hundred light-years in radius contains
>200,000 suns and perhaps a comparable number of worlds suitable for
>colonization. . ."
>
>     Why the silence?  We're just one little regarded blue-green
>world at the unfashionable end of a spiral arm in the Milky Way
>galaxy.

One more time ... an intelligent race with interstellar flight
doesn't go to just a few places, it goes everywhere.  All nearby
star systems are more or less equally attractive, so you colonize
all the nearby star systems.  A few dozen generations later, you
have filled up all the nearby star systems, so you colonize the next
layer out.  In a few hundred thousand years, you have filled the
galaxy.  All of it.

A race from a planet where life started at the same time as on
Earth, which evolved to a technological civilization one percent
faster, has had thirty million years or so to spread out since.
That is time enough to fill the galaxy about a hundred times over.
"They just haven't found us [yet]" is just not an adequate
explanation.

Most plausible explanations for why they aren't here are variations
on three themes: (1) they aren't there, (2) they are deliberately
leaving us alone, and (3) war prevents permanent settlement of
planets.  And remember the time scales involved for (2) -- they have
to have decided to leave "us" alone while "we" were dinosaurs (or
perhaps earlier; I'm not quite sure of the evolutionary time scale
(if you don't believe in the evolution of species, send comments to
net.origins where I won't have to read them)).

Now this does not mean that SETI is hopeless.  They may be just
waiting for us to contact them to welcome us into the Galactic
Federation.  But it seems about equally likely to me that as soon as
they detect us, they will come by to sterilize our planet, before we
can do the same to them.  But we should not *expect* SETI to
succeed.

------------------------------

From: rayssd!gmp@topaz.arpa (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: Re: Re: Those inquisitive aliens
Date: 11 Aug 85 01:00:47 GMT

>Any alien in the solar system will notice us on Earth!!! ...
> From a low orbit (i.e. a LandSat satellite, from which we get
> those pretty pictures) only.  From the distance of the moon, such
> features are invisible.  In fact, ALL signs of civilization
> (except for radio emissions, of which enough has already been
> said) are invisible.

This talk about low orbits is just nonsense.  If aliens are going to
bother to come all this way to visit our star system, I'm pretty
sure they'll take just a little more time to investigate the planets
(and probably larger moons as well).

More likely, spacefaring aliens are headed toward the galactic hub.
There the star densities are much higher, providing richer "ground"
for whatever it is they're looking for.

Greg Paris
{allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 85 0919-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #321
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 321

Today's Topics:

         Books - Niven (3 msgs) & Wyndham & Story Request,
         Films - Real Genius,
         Miscellaneous - N.E.T.L.A. & NASFiC & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun 11 Aug 85 11:31:37-EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: protector psychology
To: rlk@MIT-ATHENA.ARPA

> From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
> Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry
> about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life.

Of course he worried about his own bloodline.  *All* of his
descendants (except Truesdale) were in Sol system.  That's why he
didn't even tell the UN and the Belt what was going on.  Even
Truesdale's kid was in Sol system.  And Brennan knew damned well how
old Truesdale was, so he knew that Truesdale would make it to
Protector ok.  Of course, *after* Truesdale became a Protector he
was at risk, but that's what Protectors are for, yes?  And there
can't be an instinct/drive in the original Tree-Of-Life against
letting your descendants become Protectors, for obvious reasons.
Even so, Brennan was worried sick about Truesdale, if you remember
-- he actually made some irrational decisions, he was so upset, and
it cost him his life.

> PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the
> ringworld being built?  It did have the reference to the
> expedition to Earth, which was much smaller.

Now, I ask you, if you were a Protector paranoid to build something
like the ringworld, would you be silly enough to leave traces to be
found by the first family that decides it wants a *lot* of elbow
room?

--Rob

------------------------------

To: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 11 Aug 85 17:49:39 PDT (Sun)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

I didn't go back and check this, but it was my understanding that
Tree-of-Life virus could not survive (or, at least, was not
effective) without Tree-of-Life root.  That's why the protectors
died out in the original Earth expedition: the root died, and the
virus with it.

The protectors on Home would almost certainly take all the root with
them, since they did not want to raise more protectors after them.
Virus in the air would not be a danger.

Jim

------------------------------

Subject: Protectors and the Ringworld
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 85 21:12:45 EDT

rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU  writes:
> PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the
> ringworld being built?  It did have the reference to the
> expedition to Earth, which was much smaller.

This has bothered me for some time too. I think this is a slip up in
Niven's chronology. There are a number of things about the
Protectors and the Ringworld that don't seem to fit.

1) The Pak library made no mention (that we have seen) about any
   expedition leaving the Pak homeworld for the general direction of
   Sol between the original that we know about and Pthsspok. By the
   size of the expedition, it certainly SHOULD have gotten some
   mention. It would have required at least as much effort as the
   original and considerably more than Pthsspok's.
2) The Ringworld was too old to have been built by any Protectors
   who left after Pthsspok.
3) It had to happen after the original Sol expedition because the
   Protectors of the Ringworld had SOLVED the Thalium Oxide problem.
   Certainly the Protectors who reached Earth would not have failed
   to research and find this bit of (decidedly vital) information if
   it existed.

4) Certainly if this expedition had occured Pthsspok would have
   found some mention of it. Obviously he did not, or he would not
   have had to solve the Thalium Oxide problem again.

It seems to me that by all rights the Ringworld should not exist.
There are two logical possibilities that come to mind that excuse
this existence.

1) The Ringworld was built by a SECRET expedition from the Pak
   homeworld. How something like such an expedition could be kept
   secret, considering the intelligence (read 'spy') efforts of the
   rival Protector factions would have tried to find them out, fails
   to come to mind.

2) The Ringworld was built by an expedition that left Pak in a
   different direction and later sent a secondary expedition in the
   direction of Sol.  This would have to have occured before the Sol
   expedition, else Pthsspok would have found the records of their
   having solved the Thalium Oxide problem (you can bet he looked).
   It is possible that records before the Sol expedition could have
   been lost, but highly unlikely that records of an expedition
   after the Sol one would have been lost without also losing the
   the Sol records. The original expedition must have been in pretty
   good shape to send out a party capable of building the Ringworld.
   With only slower than light ships, why bother to send them as far
   away as they must have? There must have been other habitable
   systems closer to where they were. They couldn't have been in the
   neighborhood of Sol originally because they would surely have
   left other artifacts around. We are talking a LARGE neighborhood
   here, since the Puppeteers conducted commerce in a VERY large
   region of space. If they had evidence of other Pak civilizations
   in the area, there probably would have been some mention of the
   fact.
                          Mike Johnson

------------------------------

Subject: John Wyndham's "Re-Birth"
Date: 11 Aug 85 22:15:18 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

Somebody asked whether Wyndham's REBIRTH had anything to do with
another story which he called something like "Flight from Rebirth"
(don't have the original posting available, sorry).

It does not.

1.  REBIRTH is simply a renaming of the book originally called
    THE CHRYSALIDS.  For some reason, with which Jayembee would
    perhaps oblige us, all Wyndham's books seem to acquire new
    titles when they reach the US (It occurs to me that since
    Penguin books distributes through all Commonwealth countries,
    Canada probably doesn't have this problem).

2.  THE CHRYSALIDS (as I will now refer to it) is a powerful and
    unsettling story set in a time which the reader eventually
    realises is the far future.  It centres around certain younger
    members of a farming community which appears to be in the
    Labrador area of Newfoundland (the people just call it "Lab").
    Their lives are dominated by religious puritanism, in particular
    with such directives as "Blessed is the Norm", and "In Purity
    our Salvation".  The stories told which lead to these morals
    speak of the Tribulation, a time who knows how long ago, when
    God's anger with the world was manifested, and much was wiped
    away, to cause new, simpler, cleaner lives to be started.  The
    protagonist has the misfortune to be the son of the very vocal
    leader of the zealotes who most espouse the purity ethics, which
    he doesn't properly understand, and whose consequences he only
    slowly discovers as he is growing up (for instance: newborn farm
    animals with abnormalities are called Abominations, and are
    ritually destroyed; children with abnormalities are called
    Blasphemies; a woman who bears a Blasphemy may [probably will]
    be whipped; if it happens twice, her husband may throw her out
    and seek a new wife).  But he has at least the luck and the wit
    to say nothing when he discovers that he himself is not normal.
    The story takes off from there, and it is one of Wyndham's
    finest.  I don't want to say what other currently popular
    category it also fits, since that might tend to spoil it for
    those who haven't read it, but it is the first and the best of
    that category I've ever read.  A truly powerful book.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 85 15:24:34 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Motorcycles in SF

There was a very interesting story some years ago about a Hell's
Angel type who gets transported into the future by a bolt of
lightning or something, meets the new version of bikers, and has an
interesting time of it.  It *might* have been by Spinrad, but I'm
not sure.  Anyone remember for sure, and the title?
                        Transportedly,
                        Paula

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 85 16:28:22 EDT
From: dave mankins <dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA>
Subject: Danny Dunn goes to the Movies

or,

Tom Swift and his electric shadows

or,

The Technology Hacking Society, their adventures in Hollywood, and
what they found there.

Movie: Real Genius

pico-review: !!!!!
nano-review: Go see it!  Go see it!

review:

``Real Genius'' is the story of a couple of Very Bright students at
``Pacific Tech'', the sort of school that attracts fifteen year-old
prodigies who win science fairs by building molecular-Iodine lasers
from things you can find in your own basement and closets.  It
details the travails of tooling and exploitation by an unscrupulous
professor who has enlisted two prodigies (Chris Knight, senior, and
former star of the National High-School Student Physics Club and
Mitch Taylor the afore-mentioned 15-year-old freshman) to complete a
special laser project wanted by the CIA (no spoiler, you find this
out in the first two minutes of the movie).

We first see Mitch at the science fair, where Professor Hathaway
arrives to tell him he's been accepted to Pacific Tech, and that
Hathaway wants him for his research project.  You learn right away
that Hathaway is a baddie, as he despises anyone with an IQ less
than 150 (``Compared to you and me, Mitch, most other people have
the mentality of carrots.'') and that he hates popcorn.

When Mitch arrives at college, he finds the hallway covered with ice
(``You've gone too far Vic!  Who's going to clean up this mess?''
``Don't worry, it's taken care of--the ice will just sublime
directly into gas!''), the walls covered with grafitti (my god, I'm
considering going back to this movie just to concentrate on the
graffiti alone!), and his room-mate flying a radio-controlled cross
between a fan and a gyroscope around the room.

His room-mate, Chris Knight, is Prof. Hathaway's other star student.
Chris is suffering from severe burn-out and is rebelling against
everything Hathaway stands for.  Every exhalation is accompanied by
a witty remark, a lunatic sequitur, a zinging effrontery.  Chris has
seen the other side of the tooling and has become a clown out of
fear of becoming a robot.

This movie really gets inside the mind of the engineering school
student: it portrays the atmosphere of the dorms, the hacks, the
classes, the humor.  All that was missing was a ``Sport Death''
T-shirt (although ``I (heart) Toxic Waste'' isn't bad).  It also
captures the taste of technical sweetness that lets people blind
themselves to the applications of their work in pursuit of Making It
Better.  You can feel their excitement at making that laser more
powerful.

And my god!  They got REAL TECHNICAL CONSULTANTS TO MAKE SURE THEY
DIDN'T SAY STUPID THINGS!!!  REALLY!  It even listed a hacking
consultant in the credits.

This movie has a number of good things to be said for it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 11 Aug 85 16:03:39-EDT
From: Jonathan S. Drukman <RMS.G.JON%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: N.E.T.L.A.

Are you a Doctor Who fan?  If so, please consider joining the New
England Time Lord Academy.  We are a local organization (at present)
with approx. 30-35 members.  However, we have contacts with Channel
11, Channel 2 and Creation and will appear in person on Channel 11
on the weekends of August 17, and 24.  If you are interested in
joining, call Jon Drukman (617)-969-1574 address: 23 Locksley Road,
Newton MA 02159 for information.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 11 Aug 1985 19:04:39-PDT
From: rbrown%mariah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ron Brown - The Midnight Manager
From: - DTN 522-2251)
Subject: NASFiC in Austin Texas

Would like to go to the NASFiC conference in Austin. Anyone out
there have information on it? Or who might I call?
                                                      Ron

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: The Great Silence
Date: 11 Aug 85 16:51:22 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>One more time ... an intelligent race with interstellar flight
>doesn't go to just a few places, it goes everywhere.  All nearby
>star systems are more or less equally attractive, so you colonize
>all the nearby star systems.  A few dozen generations later, you
>have filled up all the nearby star systems, so you colonize the
>next layer out.  In a few hundred thousand years, you have filled
>the galaxy.  All of it.

Really?  Isn't this article just a little anthropocentric?  To do
this, a race needs a whole list of things: lots of energy, lots of
technology, and (most importantly) motivation.  A race which doesn't
have a severe population growth problem doesn't need to colonize.
Resources for thousands of years are to be had in one's own solar
system.

A race which is just starting interstellar travel has enourmous
constraints.  Generation ships are SLOW.  Assuming that FTL travel
isn't possible, the energy needed to travel at reasonable speeds is
tremendous.  Since probes in the EM spectrum are relatively cheap,
it makes some sense to pick and choose.  If all Bernard's Star has
is big gas planets, then it's going to take a lot of energy to make
something livable there for a race like us.

Detecting terrestrial planets over interstellar distances is
enourmously difficult.  They emit essentially no thermal radiation,
they are too small to occult anything or influence the obvious
body's orbits.  The only way one could detect Earth from
interstellar distances is to detect man-made radio emissions; we've
already discussed reasons why these are difficult to detect and have
reached only a few stars anyway.  This brings us to the question of
why one would want to visit a planet which is apparently inhabited.

>A race from a planet where life started at the same time as on
>Earth, which evolved to a technological civilization one percent
>faster, has had thirty million years or so to spread out since.
>That is time enough to fill the galaxy about a hundred times over.
>"They just haven't found us [yet]" is just not an adequate
>explanation.

This baldly assumes that they have a pressing desire to do so, and
the technology to accomplish it.

>Most plausible explanations for why they aren't here are variations
>on three themes: (1) they aren't there, (2) they are deliberately
>leaving us alone, and (3) war prevents permanent settlement of
>planets.  And remember the time scales involved for (2) -- they
>have to have decided to leave "us" alone while "we" were dinosaurs
>(or perhaps earlier; I'm not quite sure of the evolutionary time
>scale (if you don't believe in the evolution of species, send
>comments to net.origins where I won't have to read them)).

And 4) they haven't looked hard enough or had the time to.  Assuming
you had the power to search the entire galaxy for life, it's still
going to take a long time to find any.  Also 5) we aren't very
interesting to them.

>Now this does not mean that SETI is hopeless.  They may be just
>waiting for us to contact them to welcome us into the Galactic
>Federation.  But it seems about equally likely to me that as soon
>as they detect us, they will come by to sterilize our planet,
>before we can do the same to them.  But we should not *expect* SETI
>to succeed.

Likelyhood here is essentially meaningless.  We are on an obscure
planet whose civilization could only be apparent to those within 20
light years of us.  Therefore the only real explanation must be that
whatever civilization is on the planets within that range either a)
hasn't noticed, b) doesn't care, or c) hasn't had enough time to
act. (Remember, only those within 10 lightyears have had time to get
back to us.)  Or d) has acted, but we didn't notice.

C Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Aug 85 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #322
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 322

Today's Topics:

                Books - Delany (3 msgs) & Harrison &
                        Niven (2 msgs) & Van Vogt & Wylie,
                Films - Fantastic Voyage,
                Music - Rhiannon,
                Miscellaneous - Antimatter Girls (2 msgs) &
                        The Problems of SF & Brautigan & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Samual Delany's Dahlgren
Date: 10 Aug 85 16:00:26 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
... abbreviated here ...
>Almost all of Delany's books have a protagonist or major character
>with disfigured hands.  Off the top of my head, this is true of
>Dhalgren, Triton, the first two Neveryon books (and possibly the
>third, I haven't read it yet), and Stars in My Pockets Like Grains
>of Sand.  I greatly suspect the same thing is true of Nova.

Absolutely.  Prince Red not only has no (right I think) hand, but is
actually neurologically damaged in a way that makes a conventional
transplant impossible, so that he requires a prosthesis; this is
almost unknown in Prince's universe.

(I've always wondered how Prince controlled his prosthesis, as I
suspect from the book's description that Prince would not only not
be able to control the hand directly (the associated part of his
brain is missing) but that he would actually have trouble conceiving
of the idea of using a right hand, just as my dyslexia makes it
difficult for me to even understand that other people can't read
mirror writing.  But that's another think entirely.)

>Don't ask me why.  Either Delany dislikes his hands, he knows
>someone with disfigured hands, or it's some literary allusion I
>don't understand.

Here's my frivolous literary theory of the week (I'm trying to
restrict myself until I a) finish the damn' novel or b) finish my
damn' thesis): A deformity of the hands could symbolize
powerlessness -- an inability to "handle" the world or some part of
it.  That fits with Nova, at least.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 85 11:53:37 EDT
From: Jim Hofmann <hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA>
To: newman.pasa@xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Re: Dhalgren

Mr newman:

Thanks for setting everybody straight.  It would be nice if you
brought up some examples as to why you think Dhalgren is not up to
your standards.

Oh and yes, I do come from another planet.  One much cooler than
this one.  Planet Claire.  Come up and see us sometime.

                                        Jim Hofmann
PS When I get sometime I'll post a real review of Dhalgren and why I
thought it deserves the Nebula award it got.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 85 09:55 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Re: Dhalgren
To: hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA

Mr Jim,

I like to read about people that I can empathize with. I cannot
empathize with anyone in Dhalgren. (Perhaps that's my fault ...
maybe I am an emotional cripple) Also, I like to read books that
seem to have some direction and a plot that I can understand (so I'm
a mental midget... I'm not alone).

Perhaps it is great literature. Perhaps it has great redeeming
value.  All I know is that I was really bored while reading it, and
also confused. I was sooo bored and confused that I didn't finish
the book - a rare occurrence. I get enough boredom and confusion in
my real life that I don't need it from my escapist literature.

As I said in my earlier posting, I am primarily trying to erase the
notion that everyone thinks that Dhalgren is the greatest thing
since sliced bread. If you and everyone you have ever met think that
Dhalgren is Delaney's <insert supreme accolade of your choice here>,
that is wonderful. However, I have never met anyone personally who
liked the book, and I wanted to warn those poor folk who thought to
read a wonderful book that won the Nebula award that they might not
like it.

Dave
PS I'm sorry if my personal opinions offended you. I'm sorry if you
interpreted my note as a personal flame. I like colorful language
and wild expressions; I guess I should include a warning for
sensitive folk when I make another outragous posting.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry
Subject: Harrison
Date: 12 Aug 85 10:53:17 PDT (Mon)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

Just to set the record straight, Jim DeGriz never does more than
think lecherously about anyone but his one true love (a Stainless
Steel Rat herself), partially because she is extremely jealous and a
(mostly) reformed ruthless killer.  She used to kill for the fun of
it, now only when she has a reason, like someone giving her a dirty
look, or a possibly unfaithful husband.

I disagree that Harrison wrote it so straight as to be funny.  It
seems to me he played it for as many laughs as he could, quite
intentionally.  Jim (the narrator of the stories) describes
everything sarcastically, primarily attacking all forms of
government bureaucracy.  This does not happen by accident.

The main reason I replied, though, is to point out that there are
(at least) five Stainless Steel Rat novels, the first three of which
have been collected in THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT:

The Stainless Steel Rat
The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge
The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World

The other two are sold separately.  I am not positive of the order
of these two, but think I got it right:

The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You
The Stainless Steel Rat for President

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 85 09:30:35 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: protectors

Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a
protector in "Down in Flames"?  DIF takes place about the same time
as The Ringworld Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200 years
old.  Beowulf is Louis's stepfather, so he is closer to 300...way
WAY past the maximum age to become a protector!  Ideas?
                            marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

[Moderator's Note: Down in Flames is a story outline written by
Niven some years ago which basically destroy's most of his previous
'known space' works.  It is available from Rutgers via the ANONYMOUS
login of FTP *only*.  The file is T:<SFL>DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT.]

------------------------------

From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: Re: protector psychology
Date: 11 Aug 85 18:57:00 GMT

rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU writes:
>PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the
>ringworld being built?  It did have the reference to the expedition
>to Earth, which was much smaller.

The Earth colony was failing; the protectors there knew they were
dying; they were worried (well, as worried as protectors get) about
their charges.  It was possible that protectors would come with
descendants and wipe out the resident breeders, but it was unlikely,
as they were too busy staying alive back home: far more likely that
childless protectors would research the problem and come out.

Ringworld was a going enterprise, and reasonably successful -- but
as fragile as a planet (c. f. Canyon, Home, today's Earth.  If you
can come all the way from the galactic core, you can get enough
energy to drop a 20km wide asteroid on a planet, and settle a few
centuries later.)  Why call attention to themselves?

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: A.E. Van Vogt's 3rd Null-A Novel
Date: 11 Aug 85 20:41:43 GMT

I can't think of anything AEVV has written in recent years that he
didn't blow.  If anyone can enlighten me, please do so for I have
given up on the author of the Null-A books and the first book I
remember staying up all night to finish, The House That Stood Still.
I got stuck after 76 pages of Children of Tomorrow and haven't been
able to touch him since. AEVV certainly was formative for me in the
middle '40s but I figured him as over the hill worse even than Doc
Smith was near the end. Please tell me where I'm wrong. Master-reads
are hard to find.

Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

From: utcs!webber@topaz.arpa (R. D. Webber)
Subject: Re: 85/55 surprises
Date: 6 Aug 85 21:40:18 GMT

>From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
>Incidentally, there was a now-forgotton Phillip Wylie novel about a
>mid-1950's nuclear exchange between the US and the USSR -- anybody
>remember the name?

     One novel by Wylie on the subject was Triumph!, but I suspect
you're referring to the other, civil defense awareness novel by him,
called, I believe, Tomorrow!.
                        Bob Webber

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ugzannin@topaz.arpa (Adrian Zannin)
Subject: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"???
Date: 12 Aug 85 16:30:24 GMT

Just the other night I watched the movie "The Fantastic Voyage".  I
had seen it several years ago and I had also read the book back when
I was in 6th grade, so I really didn't catch everything the first
time through.  Now, almost 10 years later, I finally got to see it
again and found what may be a mistake on Isaac Asimov's part.

   Remember when the submarine ran into a problem and lost some air
out of the ballast tanks?  The solution was to push the sub's
snorkel through the wall of an alveoli in the guy's lung and get
some air when he inhaled.  Well, wouldn't there be a problem with
the size of the air molecules?  I mean, when the sub was
miniaturized, the air inside it was shrunken also.  Now, wouldn't
there be at least a bogus air pressure reading when they fill up
with normal air that hasn't been miniaturized?  For that matter,
would the air molecules even be able to fit into the sub?

   Please reply via e-mail, as I don't read this newsgroup too
often.  Thanks...

     Adrian Zannin
..{bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksvax,watmath,sbcs}!sunybcs!ugzannin
CSNET:    ugzannin@Buffalo.CSNET
ARPANET:  ugzannin%Buffalo@csnet-relay.ARPA
BITNET:   ugzannin@sunybcs.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1985 11:45-PDT
From: mab@aids-unix (Mike Brzustowicz)
Subject: Re: Nicks and Rhiannon

The song "Rhiannon" makes more than a few references to the myth of
Rhiannon, although not to the most famous story of her.  The ones
that come to mind are of the birds of Rhiannon (skylarks), the
episode where she escapes an odius arranged marriage (who will be
her lover?), and the story where "the sky" swallows her (Taken by
the sky).

-Brusty

------------------------------

Subject: Antimatter girls.
From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeffrey Smith)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1985 11:01 EDT

Someone a while back mentioned what would the children of an
anti-matter/matter marriage look like? To be perfectly truthfull, if
an antimatter girl and a matter boy even touched (kissed, held
hands) the explosion would liberate 1.22 * 10**28 watts of energy.
That is enough energy to light 1,000,000 light bulbs for
3,868,594,600,000 years! That's a lot of fireworks for a first
kiss!!  (I considered average male and female masses for the boy and
anti-girl)

Now if only we could accumulate a few ounces of anti-matter, and
control the reaction. Quite a power source! Of course it would make
a formidible weapon too..

------------------------------

From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy)
Subject: Re: Antimatter girls.
Date: 12 Aug 85 06:20:42 GMT

RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeffrey Smith) writes:
>if an antimatter girl and a matter boy even touched (kissed, held
>hands) the explosion would liberate 1.22 * 10**28 watts of energy.

You've slipped your units.  Joules, not watts.

dan levy
an engihacker @
at&t computer systems division
skokie, illinois
Path: ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy
  or: ..!ihnp4!iheds!ttbcad!levy

------------------------------

From: utcs!webber@topaz.arpa (R. D. Webber)
Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX
Date: 6 Aug 85 22:07:36 GMT

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>... it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science
>fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors
>currently working in the field.
     It seems to me that I have read mention of quite a few academic
critics in such places as Budrys's review columns in F&SF.  He
largely disparages them as having too little knowledge of the field,
but they do, apparently, exist.
>And due to the sociological factors of their group, science fiction
>writers, even Delany and LeGuin, pull their punches and let people
>off the proverbial hook.
     Would you care to back up this comment with some real, concrete
examples, along with a description of the sociological factors
involved in each particular case?  The following:
>I have never read anything more than mildly disparaging about
>Asimov's work by a science fiction author, and I wonder how that
>correlates with the fact that he edits one of the science fiction
>magazines.
doesn't count because Asimov does not edit the magazine which bears
his name: Shawna McCarthy was the editor until recently; the editor
is now Gardiner Dozois.
>We cannot blame the authors who venture into this field - it's
>understandable that they will concentrate on works that they feel
>showcase the best of science fiction, and that they would avoid
>soiling their own nest by attacking someone else's work, a someone
>that they meet two or three times a year, possibly.
     Ah, that explains why Charles Platt is so popular.
>There's a strong current of the old "He who can, does, he who
>cannot, criticizes" mentality in science fiction. For being such an
>intellectual genre compared to most, it's an interestingly
>anti-intellectual critical milieu. Very often the first response to
>adverse criticism is "Let's see you do better".
     While you're digging up some examples to substantiate this,
keep track of the names of the authors involved, and see if a
pattern emerges.
>There is tension and not a small amount of acrimony between writers
>and critics, and it will always be there and should always be
>there.
     Why?
>Authors often forget that it's better to be terribly excoriated in
>print than simply ignored, that anything is preferable to being
>overlooked. Just as critics often forget that they have as much
>responsiblity to their craft as authors do to theirs, perhaps more.
     Pardon me, but, "Sez you!"  This is simple speculation on your
part.
>This isn't just one man's opinion. Many important people in the
>field have stated as much, in some cases much more strongly.

     Who?  How about some examples, rather than assertion and
hand-waving?
     Frankly, your essay could have done with a lot of editorial
criticism.  Your writing style is so "lumpy" that I find myself
ready to argue even with the points I agree with.
                        Bob Webber

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 85 07:13:21 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Richard Brautigan's demise

I'm afraid it is so.  According to some (quite small) newspaper
reports a few months back, Richard Brautigan committed suicide in a
small town in California (the one that's famous for tearing up its
road signs; I can't think of the name.)
                             marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john)
Subject: Re: local vs. imported meat for aliens
Date: 10 Aug 85 18:11:00 GMT

>Raising cattle (bovine, human, rabbit, or otherwise) not only takes
>a lot of space - but you you also have to feed them - and the whole
>point was that the aliens were short of food.

The most useful food animal eats things that you cannot
(Grass,Plankton etc) and produces meat that you can eat. The aliens
might have a world full of high protein yeasts that they cannot eat
and need humans to process it.

"To Serve Man......

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 85 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #323
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 15 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 323

Today's Topics:

               Books - Cherryh & Delany & Harrison &
                       Heinlein & Niven & Del Rey Books,
               Films - Quatermass and the Pit (2 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & Ewoks &
                       Black Holes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: chanu's venture
Date: 12 Aug 85 15:07:04 GMT

> Oh well the keyboard got me again. That's Chanur's Venture.
>
> But what was the first book? What is the third? Is the third book
> out in paperback yet?

Pride of Chanur was the first. Chanur's Revenge, or The Kif Strike
Back, is the third. Great read.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Samuel Delany
Date: 12 Aug 85 12:05:27 GMT

Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>RE Jim Hofmann's comments on Dahlgren: I will admit that Delany
>takes on topics that most everyone else shies away from (most
>everyone - not everyone, and the others do it better!) but I don't
>really want to read about these topics, and I particularly don't
>want to read trashy writing on these topics. Similarly, though
>Delany "divorces himself from standard literary style", there are
>others who do it better.

Most of the Delany books I've read, though shorter than _Dhalgren_,
are worse written and considerably less interesting.  (I thought
Dhalgren stylistically interesting but intolerably repetitious.)  In
fact, I sold _Nova_, _Triton_, and _Dhalgren_ so long ago that it
took this discussion to remind me the author of _Babel-17_ wrote
them.

_Babel-17_ is his one good book, as far as I know.  It may be out of
print; I've never seen a new copy.  It draws extensively on his
knowledge of linguistics (that's his field), has plenty of action,
and tells a good love story about intelligent people.  Nor does it
divorce itself from "standard literary style!"  It even has a plot!

Give it a shot before you give up on him.

Judith Abrahms

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong - DCS)
Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry
Subject: Harrison
Date: 11 Aug 85 18:12:53 GMT

psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes:
>One such is James "Slippery Jim" diDriz, who in a stainless steel
>world can still find holes in the wall to hide in.

it's diGriz.  harrison was very fond of bad puns in the six (at
least) novels comprising the stainless steel rat series.

Herb Chong...

------------------------------

From: que!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris DeVoney)
Subject: Heilein's next book
Date: 10 Aug 85 19:57:31 GMT

Putnam will release in November, 1985 Robert Heinlein's _The Cat Who
Walks Through Walls_. The ad in "Publisher's Weekly" states:

"The new novel from the bestselling author of _Stranger in a Strange
Land_, _Friday_, and _Job!_ Heinlein at his best, here's an
entertaining, provocative and hilarious look into the worlds of the
future, where history has gone mad and a few men and women attempt
to control fate and avert disaster across time and space."

I think the book is a continuation of "Number of the Beast," which
would be interesting as they don't mention that book in the hype.

ISBN 0-399-13103-5 in hardback. A limited deluxe boxed edition of
350 numbered and autographiced copies are ISBN 0-399-13116-7.

I'll be waiting for the paperback (no word, but expect it late next
year.)  I haven't been particularily pleased with his last few
works.

Chris DeVoney
Que Corporation
Indianapolis, IN
voice: 317/842-7162
uucp:  ihnp4!inuxc!que!chris

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@topaz.arpa (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 12 Aug 85 11:04:14 GMT

>From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>
>I didn't go back and check this, but it was my understanding that
>Tree-of-Life virus could not survive (or, at least, was not
>effective) without Tree-of-Life root.  That's why the protectors
>died out in the original Earth expedition: the root died, and the
>virus with it.  The protectors on Home would almost certainly take
>all the root with them, since they did not want to raise more
>protectors after them.  Virus in the air would not be a danger.

But there WAS no root on Home: Brennan found a way of making the
virus grow in a yam, on Kobold, but he ALSO put one in his body so
that it would spread throughout the atmostphere, regardless of where
it was...  This would mean that Home would probably have the virus
there for some time- of course it would need a place to live, and if
they all left Home it might just die out naturally, though it might
be able to live on anything.  (That'd make an interesting story....
Come back to re-colonise Home, everyone turns into protectors....)
                                        Carl Greenberg
                                        ...ucbvax!dual!proper!carl

------------------------------

From: que!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris DeVoney)
Subject: Flame on Del Rey's hardback books
Date: 10 Aug 85 20:07:16 GMT

I have notices that the hardback books from Del Rey (yes, that
Lester Del Rey's company) have uneven page edges. I am offended that
they charge $16-$19 dollars for a hardbound book and don't spend the
ten cents to evenly trim and bind the pages. Is it just my local
bookstores getting bad copies? I asked Jerry Pournelle if he's
noticed this on his books. He was unaware (his copies come direct
from the publisher and *I know* they won't send nonprime copies).

If this is the case for Del Rey books, let's send a collective flame
to Del Rey and ask to sell nonprime copies at a nonprime price and
spent the money to have good looking books (with good content) at a
good price.

Chris DeVoney
Que Corporation
Indianapolis, IN
voice: 317/842-7162
uucp:  ihnp4!inuxc!que!chris

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (Slight spoiler)
Date: 19 Aug 85 06:32:28 GMT

Warning: Even a slight spoiler for a really great film is a
disaster.

>Sequel?  Wait a minute, Mark, didn't Quatermass ride the crane into
>the "Electric Force" (doo dah doo dah) and die in "5 Mil..."?????

No, that was Matthew Roney (James Donald) who gave his life for
London.  He was the scientist who was called to the site first.  He
is thin and has a craggy, clean-shaven face.  Bernard Quatermass
(Andrew Kier), is heavier set and has a moustache and beard.  In the
climax Quatermass is going around the construction site to save
Barbara Judd (Barbara Shelley) and Roney climbs the crane and rides
it into the energy column.  QUATERMASS CONCLUSION (based on reading
the novel) involves a much older Quatermass in a London that is
falling apart.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Corrections on "Quatermass and the Pit"
Date: 19 Aug 85 06:47:35 GMT

>'Twas Anthony Quayle, not Peter Cushing, in the film.

Wassa matta?  Nobody got Maltin's TV Movies out there.  It was
Andrew Kier.  He played in a number of Hammer Films movies including
DRACULA PRINCE OF DARKNESS and THE VIKING QUEEN.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Critics and SF
Date: 11 Aug 85 21:57:46 GMT

moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:

>It seems to me that critics are only happy when either decrying the
>lousy taste of the public by automatically condemning any work
>which sells well, or lauding to the skies a work which most people
>(me) find totally unapproachable.  I gave up on the New York Times
>Book Review column for precisely this reason.  I grant you that
>tastes differ, but that doesn't mean that the public (me again) is
>incapable of finding out *BY THEMSELVES* whether "this work is any
>good".

Here we go again. I read both the New York Times Book Review and the
New York Review of books regularly, and I fail to see the attitudes
you people are constantly bemoaning appearing regularly in these
mags.  Now I do sometimes see reviews I disagree with, but I like to
think I'm mature enough to appreciate alternative points of view.
Including the 'intellectual' approach to literature some of your
compatriots in this newsgroup seem to loathe.

Fact: Gerald Jonas writes a column in the NYTBR every other week. He
hardly trashes every SF book he reviews. Another fact: I believe
reviews of SF works have sometimes appeared in both the NYTBR and
the NYRB over the past few years, including reviews of Stanislaw
Lem's works. These reviews did not 'trash' SF out of hand. One more
fact: although reviews of esoterica do appear in both these
magazines, both regularly publish reviews of popular fiction and
bestsellers. I challenge you to prove to the readers of this group
that the reviewers in these mags automatically trash any work of
literature that's not written for 'eggheads' by 'eggheads.' Better
still, I challenge the readers of this group to check it out for
themselves. Your comment suggests that some reviewer said something
nasty about one of your particular favorites and you chose not to
read the NYTBR any more as a consequence.

>I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you whether
>it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read".  To me this
>indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have nothing to
>do with each other.  Thank you, I will ignore both *ART* and
>critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this bias to be
>pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally gives me no
>pleasure.

What Mr. Robinson's comment indicates is that he has peculiar
personal definitions of 'critic' and 'reviewer.' It says nothing
about the way I approach the SF genre or about the way I *should*
approach the SF genre. It should be abundantly clear by now that
there's no consensus among the readers of this newsgroup on what
good SF is or on the 'proper' way to read SF. You're welcome to your
opinions, but don't assume you've found some great 'truth' or that
anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't belong in this newsgroup
(there have been replies to some of my postings, for example, that
questioned my 'right' to post in this newsgroup because of my
'incorrect thinking').

There's been a fierce hostility toward intellectuals in American
culture for a long while; I doubt many other languages can rival
American's variety of pejorative slang for intellectuals (although I
suspect the Chinese language acquired quite a few back around the
cultural revolution :-). I see some of the hostility toward
'critics' in this newsgroup arising from the perception of SF as a
popular genre, and a certain resentment that the 'eggheads' are seen
as either (1) choosing to ignore SF or (2) choosing to say bad
things about SF as a matter of course. My feeling is that this
wrongheaded hostility is neither productive nor mature. It
stereotypes people and makes incorrect assumptions about their
actions and motivations (where ELSE have we seen this kind of
thinking? Can you say 'bigotry'?) and assumes out of hand that
readers and writers of SF have nothing to learn from what's going on
in the mainstream literary community. This attitude is a sure road
to sterility and intellectual bankruptcy in a genre that's given me
a great deal of reading pleasure over the last 30 years or so.

                                   -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Uncritical Critics
Date: 13 Aug 85 00:14:52 GMT

webber@utcs.UUCP (R. D. Webber) writes:
>dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>>... it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science
>>fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors
>>currently working in the field.
>     It seems to me that I have read mention of quite a few
>academic critics in such places as Budrys's review columns in F&SF.
>He largely disparages them as having too little knowledge of the
>field, but they do, apparently, exist.

I irregularly subscribe to what is now called _Fantasy Review_,
which attempts to review ALL published fantasy (in which they
include SF and some horror).  Their reviewers are not name authors.
I would also point out that it is the practice of the _Wash. Post
Book Review_ to use authors to review similar books, so this
practice is hardly a problem exclusively of SF.

>>And due to the sociological factors of their group, science
>>fiction writers, even Delany and LeGuin, pull their punches and
>>let people off the proverbial hook.

I happen to own _Language of the Night_ by LeGuin, and I think this
comment is totally off-base.  First, we have "From Elfland to
Poughkeepsie", in which she takes apart (as it happens) K. Kurtz
(who seems to have learned from the article).  Second, I really do
not think that everyone has to criticize like Harlan Ellison.  It is
possible to criticize without going for the jugular, and with some
humility.  Anyone who reads _F&SF_ should be able to see that
Budrys's reviews are no less thoughtful than Ellison's even though
they are certainly gentler.

>>There's a strong current of the old "He who can, does, he who
>>cannot, criticizes" mentality in science fiction. For being such
>>an intellectual genre compared to most, it's an interestingly
>>anti-intellectual critical milieu. Very often the first response
>>to adverse criticism is "Let's see you do better".

With respect to the literary establishment, I think this criticism
on the part of the SF (and the fantasy) community may in fact be
justified.  The social milieu of SF is so radically different from
that of "literary" fiction that there aren't many people familiar
with the critical apparatus who also are familiar with the aims and
ideas of SF or fantasy; most of these people, it would appear, are
authors within the fields.  I don't see this to be a problem; with
the passage of time, these people will become more numerous.

What does bother me somewhat is this fannish notion that all
enjoyable books have literary merit on all levels.  This tends to
produce criticism on the level of trivia exchange.  (Which is not to
say that this characterizes ALL fannish criticism!)

Charley Wingate  umcp-cs!mangoe

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 85  00:17 EDT (Tue)
From: _Bob <Carter@RUTGERS.ARPA>
To: <crash!bnw@NOSC.ARPA>
Subject: "cute" Ewoks

>From: <crash!bnw at NOSC.ARPA>
> Stormtroopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and
> the Ewoks had already been fighting back.

One thing that bothered me about the Ewok victory: Guerrillas
@i(never) finally defeat regulars without the assistance of an
allied regular force.

High-tech stormtroopers defeated by low-tech guerrillas sounds like
a romanticized view of the Viet Cong (sans the NVA) to me.  Perhaps
that is why the cutness of Ewoks evokes such passionate reaction one
way or the other.

_B

------------------------------

From: iitcs!draughn@topaz.arpa (Mark Draughn)
Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise
Date: 6 Aug 85 17:20:38 GMT

As I understand it, black holes can be made of matter or
anti-matter, or whatever, but it doesn't matter.  From outside of
the black hole all we can detect is its mass, its charge, and its
spin.  We can't tell whether the stuff inside originally went in as
matter, antimatter, energy, or whatever.  Antimatter black holes
might exist, but we couldn't know if they were.
                                         Mark T. Draughn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 85 1010-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #324
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 15 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 324

Today's Topics:

           Books - Bradshaw & Brust & Clarke & Zelazny &
                   Stories About Non-carbon Based Life,
           Films - Spielberg,
           Music - Rhiannon,
           Television - Doll Story & The NEW Twilight Zone,
           Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic &
                   The Problems with SF & Why We Must Leave Earth &
                   Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85  18:26 EDT
Subject: Looking for books by....
From: ("Joe Herman @ Merryland <HERMAN@UMDB>")

Gillian Bradshaw.  She wrote the "Hawk of May" trilogy.  This is one
of the best Arthurian tales I've ever read.  Does any know if she's
written anything else?
                        Hoping,
                         Dzoey
BITNET: HERMAN@UMDB
ARPA: HERMAN%UMDB.BITNET@UMD2

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell & Steve Brust
Date: 12 Aug 85 22:54:14 GMT

> Admittedly fantasy is my least favorite form of fiction ...

Well, then maybe you shouldn't review it.

> ...but this book borderlined on what Roger Ebert likes to call
> "The Idiot Plot".

Actually, Joanna Russ attributed this coining to Damon Knight long
before most of us ever heard of Ebert; maybe Ebert reads Knight, or
maybe it is rightfully attributed it to someone else.

And anyway, I disagree: I think most of the characters acted in as
intelligently as they could.  Perhaps they were naive--but then how
often had they ever experienced deceit?

I felt exuberant when I'd finished the book on a plane flight; it
was a real page-turner, and most of the time when I fly I'd rather
sleep than read.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 09:13 PDT
From: piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Gravity drives

This reminds me of Arthur C. Clarke's 'Asymptotic Drive' from
"Imperial Earth", which used a very small black hole as the basis of
the drive system.  As particles approach the event horizon, they
emit high energy photons, exciting the gas around them.  Since only
a relatively few atoms were needed to excite a much larger volume of
gas, the drive attained extremely high efficiency.  The only problem
was that the black hole needed to be replaced once it had attained
sufficient mass to begin slowing the ship's accelleration.

Clarke never went into how the microscopic black holes were created,
or more interestingly, disposed of in a safe manner.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 19:53:16 CDT
From: moorel@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: review of Trumps of Doom

In answer to Dan L. regarding a review of _Trumps of Doom_ by Roger
Zelazny: first off, he might enjoy knowing that the book was
recently the main selection of the SF Book Club, and now an
alternate. If he isn't a member, find a friend who is. The book
doesn't concern the main characters from the six novel Amber series
directly, but concerns Corwin's son, Merlin, who grew up in the
Courts of Chaos. The major portion of the book deals with Merlin's
adventures on Earth as a Computer Programmer (and then some), and
the latter half with his return to Amber. It is a fast reading,
enjoyable book, but I don't recommend it to either those who object
to books that are obviously waiting for a sequel or for those who
haven't read most or all of the first six books. It does very little
refreshing of the already developed milieu.
                               Lynne Moore (Moorel@Eglin-VAX.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 07:29 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Non carbon based stories...

This idea of different forms of life than our "normal" carbon based
selves, and all those millions of critters living on our planet, has
some interesting stories associated with it.

There is the Well of Souls series by Jack Chalker that has some
interactions with non-carbon life forms, although the majority of
characters are carbon based, for obvious reasons.

There was a story (series?) by Frederick Pohl and Jack Williamson
about intelligent stars.  It was called The Starchild Trilogy, but
in one volume.  Can you imagine conversing with Sol?  What would
(s)he think of us and what we have done?  Would it have noticed us?
Read the book to see what they thought about the whole idea.

Harlan Ellison wrote some short stories that dealt with different
lifeforms.  The Ptill Poweb Division (misspelled) springs to mind
first.  I believe it was in the anthology The Beast that Shouted
Love at the Heart of the World.

Then, of course, there was The Gods Themselves, although they may
have been carbon based.  It's not clear in my mind (or my mind isn't
clear).  They were quite different from us at any rate (even 19.5%
:-).

Enough from me, feel free to add your own...

                Jon Pugh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 13:44:33 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Spielberg

>1) All that Steven Spielberg touches turns to gold.  In evidence
>against this, I would like to mention "~The Sugarland Express"
>(something like that), which was one of SS's earlier films and went
>over like a lead balloon.  ...  An interesting thing: after this
>flopped, it took SS a long time to get anyone to even think about
>hiring him.

"The Sugarland Express" (1974) was a major critical success and made
a modest amount of money.  (It also cost a modest amount of money.)
In 1974-1975, Spielberg made "Jaws", his first big hit. "Jaws" was a
difficult, big budget production one wouldn't assign to a
questionable director.  Obviously, "The Sugarland Express" did
Spielberg no harm in Hollywood.

>2) SS has never had a major female character.  Although Princess
>Leia is not exactly Kate Hepburn, she isn't all sweetness and light
>either.  ...  However, in "Sugarland" SS had Goldie Hawn playing
>the main character, who happened to have a very strong personality.
>This also may have had something to do with the film's short life.

Spielberg had nothing to do with any of the "Star Wars" movies, so
he deserves neither credit nor blame for Princess Leia.  In my
original note, I mentioned Goldie Hawn's role in "The Sugarland
Express".  I do not think that the fact that the major character was
a strong woman (if not the world's brightest) had anything to do
with the film's failure, which was only a relative failure, anyway.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: SORCEROR@LL.ARPA
Subject: SF in Music - "Rhiannon"
Date: 13 Aug 85 22:31:26 GMT

> From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>> From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
>> And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed
>> to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's
>> still around?
> While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh
> myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about
> such.

While this song does not use the word witch or drop names from Welsh
myth, the lyrics do evoke a lot of (neo)Pagan symbolism.  The name
"Rhiannon" suggests "Rhea", the great Earth/Mother goddess in Greek
myth.  She is "taken by the wind/sky" which was a symbol of the
great male principle in the same culture.  Rhiannon's connection
with certain trappings of nature is presented as a much firmer bond
than her wordly romantic involvements.  The song says to me that no
lover should expect to dominate the Goddess which is manifest in any
woman, nor to have an exclusive relationship with her, or even to
comprehend her fully, because the attraction of Goddess and woman
derives in part from her separateness and spontaneity.  So, with all
these (neo)Pagan allusions, I feel that it is quite legitimate to
associate this song with a witch.
                                     Blessed Be,
                                     Karl Heinemann
                                     (SORCEROR at LL.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen)
Subject: Re: Re: Scary things
Date: 12 Aug 85 21:37:47 GMT

From: Glen Daniels <MLY.G.DANIELS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
> From uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo)
>>The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the
>>hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a
>>grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely
>>remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get
>>rid of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the
>>attempt.
>>
>>Anyone remember a little more about it?
> I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but there was a
> TZ episode about a girl who had a doll that her father hated, and
> it then proceeded to make threats to him, etc...  He attempted to
> destroy it (freaking out his wife + kid by doing so), but couldn't
> do it (the buzzsaw he used just sent up sparks on contact with it,
> when he threw it in the trash it came back, etc...). It then said,
> in a very sweet, dolly voice, "I'm going to kill you."
>
> It did. (via him tripping on it and falling down the stairs...)

    You are both right.  There was a TZ episode that is fairly
accurately described above, but there was also a NG episode that was
similar in many ways, but also different in some ways.

               ********** SPOILER WARNING **********

    The NG episode was about this British officer who had been in
command of a troop in India.  I think that he did something which
angered a local Indian mystic who sent the doll to the officer's
granddaugter (I believe).  The Indian had used some sort of black
magic to animate the doll, which he sent with the intention of
having it kill the officer.  Eventually it succeeds in doing so.
    The last scene of the episode is of the Indian's apartment (I
think in London. Possibly a hotel room.)  The Indian receives a
package in the mail which turns out to be a doll (made to the
resemble the British officer), which smiles malevolently at the
Indian.
                **********  END SPOILER  **********
    Part of the above I deduced after watching the episode, but I
can't remember the episode well enough to remember what is deduction
and what is actually said.

    I liked this better than the TZ episode, because I thought that
it explained how and why the doll was out to kill the person in
question.
                              John Allen
                              Ohio State University
                              UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen)
                              (CSNet: allen@ohio-state)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 17:46:09 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: The Door Opens Again

The NEW! Twilight Zone Series  (**NOT A SPOILER**)

As some of you may know, work has been underway for a new Twilight
zone series.

The series will start late September, Friday nights I believe.
All-new episodes are being produced.  Only a few (~two) of the
original TZ episodes are likely to be re-done.

I had a sneak peak at two of the new episodes earlier this month.
(Don't bother asking how.) (There is a special TZ convention coming
up SOON in some place like Denver where some of the new episodes
will be shown, though.)

The good news is [in my opinion/so far as I'm concerned] the news is
all good news:
o no attempt to recapture TZ the way it was.  The philosophy was: Do
  it the way Rod Serling might be doing it today.
o new episodes as a rule
o time to fit material.  The overall show is an hour, I guess.
  Episodes are short/long as appropriate.  Under 15-20 minutes
  there's probably no interruptions.
o Done by folks including many who know what they're doing, sf-wise,
  tv-wise, and quality-wise, and care about it.
o Variety of classic, obscure and original scripts/stories, subject
  to increasing difficulty in finding material not already optioned.

I'm looking forward to it all, based on what I've seen so far.  "For
20 years, the [door to the Twilight Zone] has been closed.  On
September (whatever), it will open again."

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 21:03:50 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Magic and Science

  "A Wink In the Eye of the Wolf" by Alexander Jablokov in the Fall
1985 issue of "Far Frontiers" is one of the best I have ever read.
  A explorer logically explains to magicians why their magic cannot
possibly work.  As a result, it stops working.  The conclusion was
quite surprising.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: re: THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX
Date: 13 Aug 85 16:47:56 GMT

> From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
> With a few notable exceptions, critical endeavors in the field of
> science fiction have been nonexistent.

We take it you *missed* Joanna Russ's fine reviews in F&SF in the
late 70's.  Too bad.  I believe they still stock back issues at $3
per copy, and might have some of those.  It's highly suggested that
you purchase these: she's sharp and will likely burst your pretty,
pompous bubbles.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 14:12:51 PDT
From: Dave Suess <zeus@AEROSPACE.ARPA>
Subject: The Extraterrestrial Imperative

The recent discussion on Why We Must Leave Earth seems to have
omitted perhaps the most compelling reason.  Dr. Krafft Ehricke (of
V2 fame, as well as the Shuttle pre-cursor, Dyna-Soar) has described
what he calls "the Extraterrestrial Imperative".  The concept
involves all sorts of dandy notions (biosphere, 2nd Law of Thermo,
technosphere, the "informational metabolism" toward which we are
evolving, and many more), but the basic thrust I got when I heard
him speak where I work is:

We gotta go, 'cause the sun's going out in five billion years.

Maybe we can delay by burning the gas giants near us, but without a
large supply of energy to tap, where will Homo Whatever be?  Ehricke
compares our solar system to a womb, furthermore, and says that an
embryo cannot stay too long in the womb (or womb and embryo both
wither and die).

Interesting stuff-- maybe someone has seen some of Ehricke's
thoughts in print somewhere?  Last I heard, he was with Space Global
Company, presumably pursuing neat stuff.  The "androsphere" has to
leave after the lights go out on Sol, and Ehricke's already planning
the exodus...

Dave Suess (guess I'll continue to rent...)     zeus@aerospace

------------------------------

From: lsuc!msb@topaz.arpa (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: The Great Silence
Date: 10 Aug 85 21:04:06 GMT

I've cut down the included part as much as possible, but I thought
the complete list was worth presenting again.

Josh Susser writes:
> ...  Why haven't any aliens contacted Earth?
> ... some of [David] Brin's hypotheses ...
>
>   1) We are truly alone.
>   2) Sentient live is just appearing in the galaxy ...
>   3) There is a galactic interdict ...
>   4) We are fundamentally different from other sentients ...
>   5) Interstellar travel and communication are impossible.
>   6) Berserkers or other hostile galactics are killing off our
>      frindly neighbors.
>   7) Civilizations with the agressive tendencies necessary to
>      drive one to interstellar expansion kill themselves off ...
>      and the surviving galactics are mellow enough to expand
>      slowly, so they just haven't found us yet.
>   8) Most habitable worlds are water worlds, so most other
>      galactic sentients would be aquatic and incapable of
>      building spacecraft.

I'm surprised not to have seen any followups to this item.  Here's
an obvious next one:

    9) Interstellar travel is impractical, and we don't know how
       to listen to the communications method used by anyone else.
       For instance, maybe they modulate their star's neutrino flow.

Mark Brader

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 85 1033-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #325
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 15 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 325

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Cherryh & Niven (4 msgs) &
                         Bar Stories,
                 Comics - Grimjack,
                 Films - Real Genius & Andromeda Strain,
                 Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic &
                         Critics & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Music in SF (& apologies to all)
Date: 12 Aug 85 14:47:35 GMT

>>From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MULTICS.ARPA
>>May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin.  I will
>>struggle to do the same.  I concede that McCaffrey may be a 'low
>>taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters with some
>>personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly.

Pyanfar Chanur has no personality? Tully has no personality? I'd
watch out for 6' tall Michael Whelan cats if I were you...

And McCaffrey isn't an irish name, is it? Sounds more scottish. I
know she lives in Ireland but I thought that was because of the tax
breaks for creative artists.

And gee, on the local bulletin boards we just had a discussion about
how bad her male characters are. They all talk like a '50s western.

I like her stuff, but to compare Cherryh unfavorably with her? Ick.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 13 Aug 85 15:41:17 GMT

> The protectors on Home would almost certainly take all the root
> with them, since they did not want to raise more protectors after
> them.  Virus in the air would not be a danger.

Jack Brennan devised a form of tree-of-life virus that could survive
indefinitely in the athmosphere, as well as one that could survive
and reproduce in a protector's body.

Remember how Truesdale was prevented from entering certain sections
of Kobold even before he was old enough to trigger the tree-of-life
hunger reaction.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Protectors and the Ringworld
Date: 13 Aug 85 15:44:00 GMT

>  space. If they had evidence of other Pak civilizations in the
>  area, there probably would have been some mention of the fact.

Probably not. Remember the puppeteers never mentioned the Trinocs
until Louis Wu discovered them.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

Subject: Fate of the Protectors of Home
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1985 09:05 EDT

>>  Bigger question, though.  This one has always bothered me about
>>Niven's universe.  What the heck happens to Home after the
>>Protectors left to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win,
>>because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.  But what
>>happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating
>>in the atmosphere ?  It bugs me.

>My guess would be that the Home Protectors continue to keep the
>human race as a whole as its charge, looking out for us and keeping
>us out of trouble. The Home colony was given as a failure in the
>timeline in "Tales of Known Space", and "Protector" has, at least
>for me, the impression of being a report that was never seen by
>most of humanity - the Protectors probably just kept Home for
>themselves as a base. Keep in mind that Protectors live a LONG
>time, O(10Kyears), so they need not even supplement their numbers
>very often. Maybe the Puppeteer "eugenics" program for Kzinti and
>humans is really the result of the Protectors manipulating the
>Puppeteers... It protects humanity from its most dangerous
>adversary to date, and makes more sense than the Puppeteers just
>doing it because "they like humans" (as stated in "Ringworld
>Engineers").

Vince's speculation is well thought out, but I believe another
scenerio to be equally likely. Phsssthpok (sp?) was only able to
stave off death by tranferring his protective instincts to the
search for the 'lost' colony-- Earth. Otherwise, with no clan to
protect, he would die. The Protectors of Home, I believe, must have
overcome tremendous instinctive behavior patterns in order to be
able to work together to fight off Phssthpok's followers. I doubt
that co-operative effort could have been duplicated by guiding the
human race as benevolent masters.

When provoked the Pak were furious and effective fighters. Had they
still been around in Louis Wu's time and became aware of the Kzinti
and the Puppeteer's, the Protectors of Home would have wiped those
races out as they would pose potential threat to the human species.
More likely the remnants of Home's Protector population, devastated
by their battle with the Pak, returned to Home. There they either
killed each other, after staking out their own territory, or died of
despair, since they didn't have any 'clan' to protect.

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 12 Aug 85 14:30:43 GMT

> to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win, because even by
> Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.

Not so. See "the ringworld engineers". Wu had seen Phsstpok's
corpse.  (pronounce that with a silent ph and t. What other
superintelligent logical alien does that remind you of?)

> But what happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus
> floating in the atmosphere ?  It bugs me.

It's listed as uninhabitable (see the map in "Known Space"), and
nobody is crazy enough to visit it. Or if they are they become
protectors, read Brennan's journal, and go charging off to the
Galactic Core.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: re: SF Bar Tales
Date: 13 Aug 85 17:20:28 GMT

Good heavens!  We can't forget Canterbury Tales.

It's an ancient technique and it still can excite and entertain us.
A campfire, an inn, a bar, some place where strangers meet and are
on equal footing.  And even when tales aren't exchanged, *something*
happens at these gatherings.  What adds the charm to "The Trouble
with Tribbles" but this very feature, how else could we have that
brawl in the bar (where else would UFP'ers be drinking next to
Klingons?).  In _Dragon_Waiting_ when all arrive at the Swiss inn,
my pulse elevated because I knew this was going to be a place of
action.  The Prancing Pony in _The_Fellowship_of_the_Ring_, where
spies and friends are found, where the party of hobbits meets the
tall mysterious stranger and Frodo makes that scene by disappearing
after dancing off the table.

A recent mainstream example of tales told in a bar or club is P G
Wodehouse-- I remember at least one volume of short stories where
this was the vehicle.  I can also remember a Sayer's Lord Peter
Wimsy story that starts out with a stranger relating his strange
history in a bar.

Is there any collection of Gavagan's Bar stuff in print these days?
I've been looking, off and on, with not much success.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #297 (bars)
Date: 12 Aug 85 14:55:01 GMT

> Anybody who likes Moorcock, the Theives World stuff, Old Humphrey
> Bogart movies, O. Henry stories, or anything else in the world,
> should check out a comic book called GRIMJACK.  It is, in my
> humble opinion, the best book on the market at the moment.
> Grimjack is a mercenary, detective,

Now that American Flagg is dying, I'd have to agree with you.

> bodyguard, assassin, thief, fighter, thug, bar owner (and all
> around nice guy) who lives in The Pit in the city of Cynosure.
> Cynosure is approximately equal to Tanelorn-- the point at which
> all the multiverses come together, and The Pit is roughly
> equivalent to Downwind in

Except that where Tanelorn is a place to go to, Cynosure is a place
to escape from.

I picked it up originally for the Munden's Bar stories at the end.
For you Bar Story fans, these are a must-read.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

To: reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
Subject: thoughts on sexist spielberg
Date: 14 Aug 85 01:36:05 EDT (Wed)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

If Spielberg IS sexist, what's he going to do to ``The Color
Purple''?

I agree that there have been a paucity of women who seem to be put
on the screen for anything other than fueling male fantasies.

   [Well, there ARE a lot of men who seem to have no purpose on the
   screen but to fuel female fantasies.  The point is that there are
   also a lot of men on the screen who are being portrayed in a
   movie because what they do is interesting, there don't seem to be
   many women of which this is true.]

An exception is Jordan, in ``Real Genius'', (wish I never had to
sleep...).  She was really a bit of a freak for one to want to
emulate her (though I STILL wish I never had to sleep...).  On the
other hand, everyone in the film is a freak, Jordan not much more so
than Chris Knight, and much less so than Professor Hathaway or
Laszlo.

[REAL GENIUS SLIGHT SPOILERS COMING UP: ]

On the plus side, the transmitter they put into Kent's head is her
idea (she also installs it, which implies she probably built it).
She's seen doing lots of ``unladylike'' things (sanding her floor,
building sleds).  The romance between her and Mitch is not
over-stressed (i.e, it's not made into her raison d'etre, it's just
a facet of her personality).  It's clear she's part of the goings on
because she's vital to them, not because she's somebody's
girl-friend (i.e., she's a person, not a sex-object).  If I were a
young woman in the audience, I could see using Jordan as my
surrogate in the film without feeling degraded or embarrassed by
what she does.  If I were a young girl, I might want to grow up to
be like here in some sense.

On the minus side, she's 19, and ends up with a 15-year-old boy
(well, he's 16 by the end of the movie).  It would be nicer if she
ended up with someone who was her equal (a romance between her and
Chris might be more appropriate).

Probably the most damning thing to say about the character in the
film is that she implies: ``Hey girls, be smart and you'll end up as
a lonely freak like Jordan.'' On the other hand, the same message is
broadcast to boys (Sherry the ``head-hunter'' notwithstanding,
Sherry is comic because she's so incongruous, her behavior seems
slightly perverse and odd, to be PC (Politically Correct), her
behavior should seem normal, of course...:-)), so at least they're
even-handed in that respect.

There's another female character worth mentioning in this film:
Susan (``A girl's got to have her standards'') the Chief
Baby-killer's daughter, who seems to be the only person able to
match verbal wits with Chris.  I'm not sure I'd call her much of a
role-model, however.

Growing young women don't even have Joanie Caucus around in
Doonesbury to inspire them anymore.  (Have you noticed how many
women law students there are nowadays?  I really wonder if its just
coincidence.)  It's not fair.

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Andromeda Strain question
Date: 13 Aug 85 09:41:58 GMT

I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began to
wonder about this recently.  As the scientists who are to
investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab
complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected, weaned
from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean when
they get to the lowest level.

What for?

They never interact with anything important except through waldos
and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the
difference?

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Magic as technology
Date: 12 Aug 85 14:25:35 GMT

> Robert Heinlen used the idea in at least one place in "The Number
> of The Beast"

A better example is Heinlein's classic "Magic Inc.", or "Operation
Chaos" by Poul Anderson.

> The theme figures quite strongly in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
> excellent interpretation of the Arthurian legends, "The Mists of
> Avalon". I believe she

I didn't notice any magical technology in "The Mists of Avalon". One
important aspect of technology is that anyone can use it, without
training. Not create it, of course, but use it. It also tends to be
common and unremarkable to the people using it. The magic in Mists
is much more like traditional magic.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: pur-phy!dub@topaz.arpa (Dwight)
Subject: New York Times reviews and D. Tucker
Date: 11 Aug 85 22:06:59 GMT

>  From: dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker)
>  And I've never read a science fiction book review which remotely
>  approached the caliber of the New York Times Book Review, with
>  the exception of Delany's review of Thomas Disch's "Angouleme", a
>  semiotic study more than a review, and Damon Knight on Blish's
>  "Common Time".

   I have never read a book review from the New York Times, but
judging by the context of your sentence I would quess that it is a
very comprehensive review.
   When I read a book review I don't always want a review that is
"in-depth".  There's a good chance that somewhere in such a review
too much of the plot would be given away.
   I suppose it all depends on why a person reads certain books.
With some books I get a great deal of pleasure just reading all of
the turns of the plot.  When I read the Thomas Covenent series I
felt this way.  I found Donaldson's writing style fairly hard going
(I worn out my dictionary!), but I couldn't wait to see what would
happen to Covenent on the next page.
   For other books it doesn't matter if I know even the exact plot!
I get my pleasure out of reading a well written yarn.  This is the
way that I read Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy (which
I've read three times.  (no, that is not a boast.  I know people who
have read it dozens of times.))
   A "New York Times"-like review might well have spoiled a great
deal of the Convenent series, but not the LotR series.  * So, Davis,
your a little right and a little wrong (in my opinion), but that's
the way most opinions are [even my own :-) ].

Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP:{decvax,seismo,ihnp4,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs}!pur-ee!pur-phy!dub
    {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!dub

* - recursion alert!

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Re: The Great Silence
Date: 13 Aug 85 15:38:30 GMT

You're assuming there's only a few intelligent races in the galaxy.
Besides: why would a race with a low exploratory/reproductive/etc.
drive acquire interstellar travel? And so what if they can survive
for 1000 years on a single solar system: that still leaves time for
3,000 iterations of the explore/colonise/fill a solar system/explore
cycle if they're only 1% ahead of us. And do they have to fill the
solar system before they want to go for the next one?

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Aug 85 1003-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #326
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 326

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Clarke & King & MacAvoy &
                         Niven & Van Vogt,
                 Films - Spielberg,
                 Miscellaneous - Propaganda & 
                         Paying Guests at Cons &
                         The Problems with SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 85 17:43:08 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: Bring on the Aliens

There's a short story by Arthur Clarke (don't remember what it's
called, but I think it's in SENTINEL) which suggests that the reason
that we haven't been contacted yet is that we evolved so durn fast!

                   ****** SPOILER SPOILER ******
It is told from the aliens' point of view.  It seems that a research
team of a multi-species civilization was observing a star which
showed signs of being about to nova, when they detected radio
signals.They were quite shocked, because an expedition had been
there a scant hundred million years before, and it was unprecedented
that sentience could develop in such a short time.

The star was going to go blooie real soon, so they sent out a rescue
team to save as many of the humans as possible. The aliens found the
planet deserted.  The cities had been left intact, with all sorts of
broadcasting equipment set up to observe the nova firsthand.  The
aliens looked in the direction that the signals were being sent, and
saw many ships receeding at *sub-light* velocities with *reaction*
thrusters!  The rescue team set out in the direction of this spunky
little species, and one said to another "What if they don't like our
little empire?  I mean, we only outnumber them by a few billion to
one."  The other laughed, but (classic line) "twenty years later, it
didn't seem all that funny."

GREAT story!
                   --Jamie
                     jwz@cmu-cs-spice

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 14 Aug 1985 07:26:11-PDT
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (From the terminal of Brendan E.
From: Boelke)
Subject: Things that go bump in the night

   Particularly pertaining to the comment concerning 'things that
could happen tomorrow', one of the books that I've read that had me
looking over my shoulder for awhile was King's THE STAND.  Not the
second half of the book - the first.  Every time I coughed, I
wondered if I had THE flu (are you listening Union Carbide? :-( )

------------------------------

Date: Wed 14 Aug 85 15:16:34-PDT
From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: The Book of Kells

I was disappointed in this book.  I loved the DAMIANO trilogy and
TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON was wonderfully original.  THE BOOK OF
KELLS was predictable; that was what disappointed me.  It wasn't a
bad book, just not up to MacAvoy's usual standard.  I did enjoy the
background stuff on tenth century Ireland, but the characters were
just too predictable.

Aline Baeck
NORRIS@SRI-AI

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: protectors
Date: 13 Aug 85 13:40:59 GMT

mooremj@EGLIN-VAX writes:
>Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a
>protector in "Down in Flames"?  DIF takes place about the same time
>as The Ringworld Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200
>years old.  Beowulf is Louis's stepfather, so he is closer to
>300...way WAY past the maximum age to become a protector!  Ideas?

SPOILER WARNING: IF YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF "DOWN IN FLAMES", YOU
MAY NOT WANT TO READ THIS -- NIVEN MAY WRITE THE BOOK SOMEDAY.

Down in Flames was conceived before Ringworld Engineers...in fact,
it may have been conceived before Ringworld, since one of the
premises of Down in Flames is that the faster FTL drive (used in
Ringworld) was actually a hoax.  Therefore, Down in Flames could
very well be incompatible with Known Space as it has since
developed.

NEVERTHELESS, I can suggest one way that Beowulf Sheaffer could
easily be the right age to eat Tree-of-Life root anytime he wanted.
In the known Sheaffer stories, he is likely in his late
twenties/early thirties.  He could be Louis's stepfather at this
time.  Then for some reason (possibly connected with the Puppeteer
hoax that he helped start), he had occasion to hop on a Ramjet and
go off somewhere at speeds that would provide enough relativistic
time dilation to let him age ten years while Louis ages 200.  At the
end of the journey, Sheaffer ends up...at Home, for example, where
there is lots of Tree-of-Life root.  Sheaffer turns into a
protector, picks up an FTL rocket from the ones left on Home when
the other Protectors left, and rushes back to wherever he has to be
to start the events in Down in Flames.

Second possibility: the whole point of Down in Flames is that the
T'Nuctipun are not dead.  Suppose the T'Nuctipun get worried about
human Protectors...  after all, human Protectors are supposed to be
even nastier than Pak Protectors.  The T'Nuctipun figure that it
might be in their best interests to study a Protector, maybe "put
one on the payroll" so to speak so they can have their tame
Protector help them against other protectors that may appear.  They
grab poor Sheaffer as Sheaffer is off alone on some solo trip (who
cares what he's doing?), stuff him full of Tree-of-Life root, then
hold him prisoner for centuries.  Perhaps they can keep him in line
just by threatening to destroy large human colonies if he disobeys.
A Protector would likely submit if the alternative was a direct
threat to his charges.  So Sheaffer has to help the T'Nuctipun for
200 years; then he manages to escape in some clever way (perhaps he
fakes his own death so the T'Nuctipun don't make a retributive
strike on humanity), and the wheels are set in motion.  This makes a
more interesting scenario, because it means that there is at least
one Protector out there who has some familiarity with T'Nuctipun
technology.

NOTE: To all those who have never heard of Down in Flames, it was a
story outline by Larry Niven that circulated on the net a few years
ago.  In it, the whole Known Space series was turned on its ear by
the suggestion that the T'Nuctipun were not a race that died out a
million years ago.  They're here, now, and nasty.  For their own
reasons, they mug any ship that tries to go FTL too close to any
star's gravity well (it's to their advantage that Known Space races
believe that they have to go a long way out of their way before they
can go FTL).  The Puppeteers are fleeing from the T'Nuctipun, not
the exploding centre of the galaxy.  In fact, the centre of the
galaxy is not exploding.  That is all a hoax the Puppeteers played
on Beowulf Sheaffer to explain why they were running.  And so on,
and so forth.  Everything you thought you knew is far from the
truth.

Down in Flames was thrown together after some sort of party many
years ago.  Someone suggested to Niven that he should write one last
Known Space story and destroy most of the galaxy.  Down in Flames
certainly puts an end to Known Space as we know it.  However, I
doubt if it can be considered an official part of the series; if and
when the book ever comes out, it is likely to be a lot different.

                   Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1985 16:16:42-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BitNet@UCB-VAX.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: "Space Walrus"

The story about the "space walrus" is "Resurrection" by Van Vogt,
and there is no such beastie in it.  The rest of the details are
pretty close though.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 85 10:53:13 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Spielberg
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

orstcs!richardt writes:
> Two great fallacies about Spielberg movies ...
> 2) Steven Spielberg has never had a major female character.
> Although Princess Leia is not exactly Kate Hepburn, she isn't all
> sweetness and light either.

Let me be the 56th to point out that Leia is a creation of George
Lucas, not Steven Spielberg.

How "major" was Karen Allen's character in "Raiders"?  She certainly
had less screen time than Harrison Ford, but I found her a very
likeable, strong woman.  Hearing that not only was she not in
"Temple of Doom", but that the female sidekick was a stereotypically
weak woman, was one of the major factors that made me decide to not
see that movie.
                                           --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 85 13:28 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Chekov as propaganda

Did you ever notice how Chekov was a brilliant piece of anti-soviet
propaganda?

He was a bright fellow, he had just been lied to about all those
facts he knew.  This was a humorous way of pointing out that the
USSR lies about EVERYTHING, from the origin of quadrotriticaly to
the origin of vodka. "It was inwented by a little old lady outside
of Leningrad."  Quite pointed if you look past the humor.

Unfortunately, it is the kind of face the USSR shows the world these
days.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz.arpa (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: Payment to guests at cons
Date: 12 Aug 85 15:35:45 GMT

> Just out of curiosity... What is the generally-accepted formula
> for paying "star"-type guests at cons, like the actors that have
> played the Doctor at Dr. Who cons, or the Star Trek actors at ST
> cons, or noted authors at SF cons? Do they get just free room &
> board and travel expenses, or are they paid a rate equivalent to
> what they would get as actors in a stage production lasting that
> long (and if so, how are author's fees determined?), or do the con
> committees negotiate a fee with the personalities' agents, or
> what?
>
> In general terms, do these people attend these cons out of the
> goodness of their hearts, or for the publicity value, rather than
> to make money?  Or do they do it as a job and charge "commercial"
> rates for their time?
>
> Will Martin

Guests at media cons are often paid appearance fees.  At most SF
cons, the guests of honor get transportation, room, maybe board or a
per diem for themselves and a companion or family.  Authors and
artists who aren't guests of honor may get free membership in the
convention for themselves and maybe a guest or companion. This sort
of thing depends on the policy of the con committee.

Most authors I know go to cons not for publicity or any sense of
altruism, but because they enjoy cons.  They get to get fawned over
by fans, hob-nob with fellow authors, party, make business
connections, and write it all off on their taxes as a business
expense (which it is!).

To get an author at your convention, just write directly to the
author and ask. A few authors will direct enquiries to agents, but
most handle their own corespondence.  I don't know the details of
getting a media personality to a convention because I've never been
on the con-com of a media con.

Ariel (Come to Orycon!) Shattan
..!tektronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me
Date: 14 Aug 85 03:37:36 GMT

>I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you whether
>it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read".  To me this
>indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have nothing to
>do with each other.  Thank you, I will ignore both *ART* and
>critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this bias to be
>pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally gives me no
>pleasure.
>              [KEN MOREAU]

Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust)
knows absolutely nothing, or next to nothing, about being a
reviewer, as he has so amply demonstrated in his review columns, and
even less about being a critic. Gene Shalit gives more depth; Rona
Barret gives more detail; and "Entertainment Tonight" gives more
understanding. I have never understood why *ART* is so bad, such a
pejorative, in America and especially in American science fiction.
In most places in the world, to say that something is "great art" is
a compliment. To you and Spider Robinson (author of such art as
"Harry Callahan's Crossroad Five-Guys-In-A-Bar-Trade-Stupid-Puns-
And-Act-Superior-And- Incredibly-Sophomoric"), it is an insult. Art
and a "good read" may have nothing to do with each other, but I and
many, many others will disagree violently at such a purposefully
ignorant attitude.  These hedonistic tendencies will leave you with
little fulfillment, less enlightenment, and no understanding of the
world outside D&D games and national news programs. To ignore art
because it gives no pleasure is synonomous with ignoring education
because it gives no money. A backward, Luddite, barbarian attitude
which makes me wonder how anyone who ever held this belief ever got
the drive and motivation to learn how to read.

This is not idle electronic banter, and it is not specifically
directed at you, or at Mr. Robinson. But to champion a "good read"
over "great art" is very, very egocentric. It also belies an
inferiority complex about one's ability to appreciate art and uphold
one's personal standards as opposed to lying down and accepting the
tyranny of entertainment. Many definitions of great art encompass
being a "good read", but this quality is but a portion of what it
takes to write a great novel. Spider Robinson's championing of ease
of reading over depth of feeling is simple laziness. He, and many
others, choose not to exercise their minds or their hearts, but to
relax and enjoy and treat books as if they were TV sit-coms.
Subsequently, he says that because this is what he enjoys -
semi-mindless entertainment such as he and so many others in his
field have made a career of - it is what is good, and is better than
what he does not enjoy - art. I have never made any statements to
the effect that something is good because I enjoy it. I have
appreciated many works which I did not necessarily enjoy or find a
"good read". Enrichment of the heart and enlightenment of the mind
do not come to the lazy or the proudly ignorant. How many
"enjoyable" works have allowed you or forced you to walk a mile in
another man's shoes ("Soul On Ice"), or understand the nature of
death ("The Death Of Ivan Ilych"), or feel outrage at terrible
injustice ("Les Miserables"), or come face to face with home and
family ("The Last Picture Show"), or realize that politics affects
individuals as well as societies ("A Tale Of Two Cities"), to see
the depths of depravity and hatred of self ("Notes From
Underground", "In The Belly Of The Beast", "Heart Of Darkness"), to
internalize and gain some knowledge of the human condition?

There is so much trash and fluff and junk and silliness in our
culture, so much championing of materialism and the easy road to
understanding, a sort of mental "get rich quick" ethos. To downgrade
the name of art in favor of a "good read" is to say to the world "I
am ignorant, and I am proud of it, and I shall remain blissfully
so". It is an attitude which Madison Avenue and every manipulator
loves with a fervor usually reserved for God. There are so many
closed minds in this world, so many minds which have never seen a
book or heard a new idea, too many. It is criminal to close your
mind to the sublime and the new because it does not entertain you,
while these who have never had the chance remain in enforced
ignorance, an ignorance which so many in America embrace and raise
to the heights of a new religion. It is diseased, it is animal, it
is a total abnegation of the faculties of intelligence. Choose to
ignore art; choose to wallow in the filth of ignorance and the
ordure of pure entertainment; hold Spider Robinson up as a genius
and a great writer and a great commentator on the human condition.
Remain an intellectual and artistic Helen Keller - but remember that
she, who had so little ability to appreciate greatness and art and
love and life, struggled her entire life to appreciate those very
things which you and Mr. Robinson and so many others of your ilk
choose to downgrade and spit upon and despise.

I shake my head in wonder and awe at the power of ignorance and the
majesty of barbarianism. And I wish that I did not shake my head so
often, or so long.

Davis Tucker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Aug 85 1027-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #327
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 327

Today's Topics:

               Books - Cowper & Forward & Harrison &
                       Niven & Wyndham,
               Films - My Science Project,
               Miscellaneous - Blank Holes (2 msgs) &
                       The Problems of SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: Re: THE ROAD TO CORLAY and sequel
Date: 14 Aug 85 16:43:52 GMT

jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)
> The sequel is A DREAM OF KINSHIP, published by Timescape Books.

> I can't recall the exact date (my copy is packed away right now),
                             I can verify this^

>but it was somewhen circa 1982, I think.
           I can correct this^
by looking at my copy.

_A_Dream_of_Kinship_, Richard Cowper, copyright 1981 by Colin
        Murray, first Timescape printing August 1981,
        ISBN 0-671-43304-0

I'm sorry to say I didn't like it as much, and I didn't finish it so
maybe it gets better!  Also, the cover's not as nice as
_The_Road_to_Corlay_-- don't think it's Maitz, either, but I can't
see a signature so I can't tell.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY
Date: 15 Aug 85 00:04:45 GMT

           THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY by Robert Forward
                             Baen, 1985
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Capsule review: This is a good hard science novel, but several
cuts beneath Forward's DRAGON'S EGG.  The book seems inflated and
flawed.  If you want the ideas, just read the appendix.

     Back in 1980, Robert Forward published a particularly enjoyable
first novel.  DRAGON'S EGG was about a race, the Cheela, rapidly
evolving on a neutron star headed for our solar system.  The book
chronicled the human expedition to visit the neutron star and the
story of the Cheela's entire history which, with their much faster
timescale, covered little more than days of our time.  The
elements--hard science, an unusual environment, the resulting
aliens, their contact with humans--all were reminiscent of MISSION
OF GRAVITY by Hal Clement.  It was the most enjoyable novel I'd read
in a good while and I was disappointed that it was not even
nominated for a Hugo.  THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY is Forward's
second novel--the one that decides if he is a writer or a man who
had a good idea for one book.

     The answer is probably somewhere in between.  This book is no
DRAGON'S EGG.  It's readable, but no great shakes.  In this book he
makes the mistake of having a much less interesting breed of aliens
than in the former book, so Forward concentrates much more on the
humans than on the aliens.  Well, the humans are much less
interesting than the aliens.

     The plot is pretty standard stuff, really.  Humans go to alien
planet, humans meet friendly aliens, humans have adventure trying to
leave alien planet.  On this well-worn plot Forward hangs some
details, usually based on scientific fact.  He has details about the
design of his interstellar craft, about the nature of his aliens,
the Flouwen, and about planetary physics.  He even has a few ideas
about robotics.  Forward, unfortunately, has a dramatic problem with
his ideas for interstellar flight.  He does not have a mechanism for
bringing his travelers back to Earth.  The very fact undercuts much
of the possible suspense, since his humans don't really have a whole
lot to live for.  That being the case, it is difficult for the
reader to make himself care if the humans survive.  The limited
technology also tends to make the first part of the book drag since
it would take our humans a while to find the alien lifeform, so
Forward has the choice of glossing over the interstellar flight and
the search or of describing it in some detail.  Forward opts for the
latter, creating a thicker book which probably pays better, but
making a novel which is less satisfying than the more pithy DRAGON'S
EGG.

     The book is further thickened by an extended appendix that
recaps all the interesting ideas of the book, though it adds little
to them.  The appendix of DUNE worked very well to ass an air of
authenticity to the book by fleshing out details and making Arrakis
more complete and real.  However, there is little in the appendix of
THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY that is not in the main body of the
book.  With an appendix, there is always some question as to when to
read it.  If you read it too soon, it can ruin plot details; if you
read it too late, it does not perform the function of broadening the
background.

     There are standard Forward touches in THE FLIGHT OF THE
DRAGONFLY.  One of them is a curiously forced inclusion of sexual
references.  In DRAGON'S EGG the aliens take a special in a female
astronaut's breast.  In THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY, we have a moon
with a tit and sex demonstrations for the aliens.

     And on the subject of strained touches, I enjoyed the allusion
to THE SPACE MERCHANTS and "Chicken Little."  That may well be what
chicken tissue culture might be called because that was what it was
called in that book.  But references to science fiction go a bit far
when one of the characters is a big fan of DRAGON'S EGG.  One doubts
that the book will be remembered in another 90 years.

     Some of Forward's ideas either do not make sense or are not
properly explained.  The book seems to confuse the concepts of mere
unlimited lifespan and true immortality.  The Flouwen have no
concept of death in a world that seems to have obvious physical
dangers for them.  The double planet system described might well be
physically stable enought to exist, but more than that is necessary
to make the world believable.  I do not remember Forward explaining
how the double world came into being.  The Flouwen are supposed to
be mathematically far advanced over us.  Now this is not something
easy to convey in a work of fiction and Forward does it by having
mathematically immature Flouwen doing familiar proofs, like
Cantor's, in their heads.  In fact, he seems to pick out a bunch of
well-known problems and has the Flouwen solve them with ease, as if
all races would look at pretty much the same problems.  Actually, in
the history of mathematics--our mathematics--the paths taken have
usually been closely associated with physical problems, problems
that the Flouwen would not have faced.  They might never have looked
at some of our most interesting problems, and we might never have
considered most of theirs.  It seems unlikely that the Flouwen's
environment would challenge them sufficiently to have the supremely
advanced mathematics that Forward claims they have.

     (Actually, I had given some though years ago to what really
advanced mathematics would seem like to us and how to credibly
portray it in science fiction, but that is really more of a
digression than I can comfortably go into here.  Buttonhole me
sometime if you are really interested.)

     In any case, THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY is readable and
diverting, but a real come-down from DRAGON'S EGG.  You are better
off re-reading that.  Rate this book a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 85 22:37:07 edt
From: Mike Ardai <mike%cucca@columbia.arpa>
Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat

   I have noticed a recent resurgence of interest in Harry
Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books; this is good to see, since
they have been (in my erstwhile opinion) underrated in the past.

   In a recent conversation with the author the subject of further
SSR material came up; for anyone who's interested, here it is.

   Aside from the already published pentology (the titles of which
have been posted previously), Harry has been quite busy with this
character.  Slippery Jim has his own pseudo-role- playing-game,
board game and comic book, though the board game seems only to be
available in England.  Also restricted to European publication is a
Rat choose-your-own-adventure book -- says Harrison, "It came out
fine, but I'll never do it again."

   But the best news of all has to be the announcement of his latest
Rat novel, A Stainless Steel Rat is Born.  Detailing Degriz's early
years, it includes info on how he started on his life of crime and
his infamous escape for the juvenile detention center at age
sixteen.  I'm really looking forward to this one; I don't know about
you, but much as I liked the rest of the series, nothing can hold a
candle to the opening sequence in the first novel when the Rat is
still a criminal.

Enjoy.

-Charles Ardai
Contact through :
ARPANET:  UI.MIKE@CU20B.ARPA
BitNet:   MIAUS@CUVMA
UseNet:   (...!seismo!columbia!cucca!mike)

------------------------------

From: iitcs!draughn@topaz.arpa (Mark Draughn)
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 13 Aug 85 01:27:50 GMT

>From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
>       Bigger question, though.  This one has always bothered me
>about Niven's universe.  What the heck happens to Home after the
>Protectors left to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win,
>because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.  But what happens
>to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating in the
>atmosphere ?  It bugs me.

More important.  What happened to brennan's fleet?  They probably
won the war, but...  As far as they know, Earth is unprotected.
Earth is also left without the Brennan-monster to keep the peace.
Any time now, the fleet should be returning.  Protectors with
hyperdrive will be unbeatable.  They can do anything they want.
(Unless humanity kills them off.  But I don't believe thay would.)
They might want to rebuild the ringworld.  They would certainly
slaughter the Kzinti and the Trinocs.  They might decide to kill off
the grogs, the bandersnatchi, maybe even a few of the puppeteers.

Whatever happens, it would make a damned good story.

                                          Mark Draughn

------------------------------

From: cdstar!saltiel@topaz.arpa (Jack Saltiel)
Subject: John Wyndham detective novels--wanted.
Date: 14 Aug 85 23:36:18 GMT

I have read all of Wyndham's Science Fiction(Day_of_the_Trifids,
The_Chrysalids, etc.,) or all that I know exists. He is unusual in
that genre, in that he write prose suburbly, (or did when he was
alive.) He has also authored a number of detective novels that are
all out of print.  Can anyone identify these works and where I might
find them in any condition??

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: MY SCIENCE PROJECT
Date: 15 Aug 85 00:05:26 GMT

                         MY SCIENCE PROJECT
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Capsule review:  MY SCIENCE PROJECT gets a barely passing grade.

     Back around 1960 Disney Studios made a couple of decent fantasy
films: THE SHAGGY DOG and THE ABSENT-MINDED PROFESSOR.  After that
they hit a slump, making a series of films that traded off of the
popularity of these films.  They were mostly similar in content to
these films; some were sequels.  There was some market for these
bland films, but Disney's lack of originality was sowing the seeds
of audience contempt for the Disney name.  MY SCIENCE PROJECT is the
film that Disney should have made in 1962.  Unfortunately, they did
not, and now it is too late.  Audiences have higher expectations
from post-STAR WARS fantasy films and MY SCIENCE PROJECT really does
not hack it.

     The story is of a high school car lover who is forced to do a
science project.  He wants to rebuild the engine of a World War II
airplane which he was going to "borrow" from a local air base.
Instead, he gets the engine from a UFO that the government has been
hiding for years.  It does weird things and in the finale--which
seems hours into the film--it opens a hole in the space-time
continuum and lets through a Whitman's Sampler of dangerous humans
and animals from other points of space-time.

     Back when audiences expected a lot of only vaguely amusing
story and were willing to wait for a fantasy punch at the end, this
sort of story would have cut the mustard.  The film has other
problems too.  The characters all seem to know why they are doing
what they are doing, but often it is not explained very well to the
audience.  At one point, the characters seem to be chasing some
electrical something on power wires.  First, it is the slowest thing
that ever went over power lines, but even beyond that, the script
never explains what it is they are chasing or what would happen if
they lost the race.  Often scenes seem to fail because the director
has no idea how long a scene should take.  At one point two
characters have a two-minute conversation while holding up a line of
cars.  I can see the line waiting while the grease-monkey repairs
the lead car, but the conversation went on long after he finished.

     This film has problems with continuity, logic, and especially
pacing.  Rate it a low 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes
Date: 13 Aug 85 00:09:41 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Yes, you can make a black hole out of anti-matter.  But the result
>is just a black hole, not an anti-matter black hole.  There is no
>way to distinguish it from a black hole made from ordinary matter.
>
>In particular, if one collided with another black hole, the result
>would be just a bigger black hole.  Not an explosion destroying the
>two black holes.

Black holes have almost no properties which allow us to tell
anything about them, except that they have spin, charge, and the
apparent diameter provided by the event horizon, which is apparently
a function of mass.

I wonder what would happen if two holes with opposite spin,
identical mass and neutral charge collided.  Especially if the event
horizon were small enough...

Hutch

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes
Date: 14 Aug 85 22:50:31 GMT

Isn't everyone missing the point anyway?  Procyon's Promise (and
Life Probe) are predicated on the idea that when we actually go out
and *observe* black holes ``directly'', we won't find what we
expect.

Have you checked your antimatter black hole recently?

(Not that I expect later observations to disagree with current
theories, but I think everyone's going a bit overboard here.)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: I may not know Art, but I know Paul Simon
Date: 14 Aug 85 04:00:00 GMT

I suspect that the use of "art" as a prejoritave stems from the fact
that quite often material is passed off as art when it is quite
simply *BAD*.

Many forms of art require detailed study to be fully appreciated.
Thus people are used to not appreciating some artforms immediately.

One doesn't appreciate bad material immediately either.  It has this
in common with some art.  So bad material sometimes gets passed off
as arty, and this gives art a bad name.

What Spider Robinson (an author whom I dislike, btw) may be trying
to say is that truly superb art involves excellent communication
skills as well.  You may have something valid to say about emotions
or the human condition, and you may be able to convey it to a few
who think as you do, but an artist of great skill conveys it to all.

Lots of people are clever.  Great people spread their cleverness
into the world.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Aug 85 1053-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #328
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 328

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Brust & Delany & Niven,
                  Films - The Fantastic Voyage (3 msgs)
                  Music - Pat Benatar,
                  Miscellaneous - Ewoks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: Re: To Reign in Hell ("The Idiot Plot" ???!!!)
Date: 14 Aug 85 03:47:00 GMT

> Just to toss out another opinion on this book; this was the worst
> book that I've ever finished.  It wasn't bad enough to make me
> give up on it completely, I guess I just kept waiting for it to
> get good.  Admittedly fantasy is my least favorite form of fiction
> but this book borderlined on what Roger Ebert likes to call "The
> Idiot Plot".  If any one of the main characters acted sensibly
> during the first half of the book, the book would have been over.
> After all the good things I'd heard about the book, I was
> definitely disappointed.

   You, sir or madam, wouldn't know a work of fiction if it jumped
up and bit you on the arse!  ``The Idiot Plot,'' huh?  Perhaps you
haven't read ``Romeo and Juliet,'' a play by Will somebody-or-other.
Melodrama, man, M-E-L-O-D-R-A-M-A.  It isn't often handled too well
these days; I really credit Steve Brust with a job well done for
``To Reign in Hell.''

   Melodrama means your characters are prey to forces beyond their
control.  In this myth, even the gods are caught in the web of their
own machinations.  The characters don't ``act sensibly''... but
rather they act like people.  Brust handles this with the dexterity
and dry wit of the early Zelzany.  Yeah, it's got some flaws, but
the overall quality is high.

   Who knows -- maybe you were joking.  You know, ``:-)'', and all
that.  Probably not.  I guess you're right; fantasy isn't your can
of worms.  Back to Sidney Sheldon with you.

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Samual Delany's Dahlgren
Date: 13 Aug 85 20:01:43 GMT

From Tim Ryan:
>>   _Dhalgren_ ends up being a circle -- the main character ends
>> up leaving the city, only to be in the same situation that he was
>> in at the start of the novel.  I don't think there was a "moral"
>> to the story, either.  I saw the story more as a character study.
>>   I certainly agree with the original poster and with you that
>> _Dhalgren_ is a bizarre novel.  For a short, classic piece of
>> Delaney, I recommend "Time Considered as a Helix of Semiprecious
>> Stones."

I personally enjoyed reading "Nova" too, although some of the other
people in this group thought it was not one of Delaney's best.  It's
been quite a few years since I read it, though so I'm not sure what
my reaction would be on rereading it. I have to admit I've yet to
make it through "Dhalgren;" I'm currently trying it again (but then
it took three aborted attempts to get through Thomas Pynchon's "V"
:-).

The requirement that the novel contain conflict(s) and a denouement
is (to the best of my recollection) a more or less European literary
tradition. There's a Japanese novel, for example, with a title that
has the word "mountain" in it, that is about an old man's
experiences as he awaits his death (I can't remember the title or
author, unfortunately). The effect is that of a chunk lifted out of
the old man's life; this kind of fiction can seem boring to a
Western reader who expects a novel to build to one or more climaxes
before things are wrapped up at the end (note of course that a lot
of 20th century European and American fiction departs from this
model, "Dhalgren" being one example).

Our definition of Good Story has been conditioned by our experiences
as members of 20th century Western society, and we bring to our
reading of fiction (SF as well as other genres) certain expectations
based on that conditioning that are just as rigid as the Japanese
Noh fan's expectations when he goes to view a play. I suspect the
difficulty a lot of us have with "Dahlgren" is related to the
strength of that conditioning and the difficulty we have in stepping
outside its rigid bounds to appreciate a work of art that was
crafted to approach the human experience in a different way.

I expect I'll end up liking "Dahlgren;" if not, I'll at least
appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it. In any case, I'll
work for the enjoyment (but part of the kick in reading such a book
for me is my response to the demands the author puts on me as a
reader).
         -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: sesame!slerner@topaz.arpa (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner)
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 15 Aug 85 00:04:27 GMT

There has been a lot of talk about Niven's Protectors, and I seem to
have missed (at least) one major story (the one involving Home) with
protectors...

Could you all MAIL me a list of all Niven books/stories with
protectors?  I will post a summary here.

Thanks..

Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner
{genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner
{cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner
slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA

------------------------------

To: sunybcs!ugzannin@topaz.arpa (Adrian Zannin)
Subject: Re: (SPOILER) Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"???
Date: 15 Aug 85 00:03:43 PDT (Thu)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> Just the other night I watched the movie "The Fantastic Voyage".
> . . . Now, almost 10 years later, I finally got to see it again
> and found what may be a mistake on Isaac Asimov's part.

Several matters that were rather loosely handled in the film were
explained much better (or even worked completely differently) in the
book; for example, does a multi-ton submarine normally many metres
long still weigh several tons when it fits inside the needle of a
syringe? and if it does, how is the syringe handled?.  Careful,
non-technical explanations are given to Grant, and thereby to the
reader.

Personally, I recall 2 blatant mistakes from the film, which is
quite remarkable given the restrictions of the time at which it was
made.
1.  The Proteus was left in Benes after Grant sliced its flank open
    and the white cell consumed Michaels.  In the book, Grant makes
    certain that the white cell, having engulfed Proteus, follows
    him out: he does not want several tons of metal, however
    corroded, returning to normal size in Benes' skull.

2.  Far too few red cells in Benes' blood.  They should have been
    like a swamp around Proteus.  As it appeared, he would have been
    too anaemic to survive.

> . . .  Well, wouldn't there be a problem with the size of the air
> molecules?  I mean, when the sub was miniaturized, the air inside
> it was shrunken also.  Now, wouldn't there be at least a bogus air
> pressure reading when they fill up with normal air that hasn't
> been miniaturized?  For that matter, would the air molecules even
> be able to fit into the sub?

You are talking about something so fantastically small that, even
un-miniaturised, they would have been too small for the Proteus'
crew to see.  I think even the lipoproteins (which are
macromolecules) comprising the surface of the red blood cells would
have been just on the limit of miniaturised sight.  As for how
effective they would be, I doubt that they would make any difference
unless one had to breathe them; and as far as I'm aware, it was,
just as you say, the ballast tanks that were being replenished.  It
probably is true, though, that atoms so enormously different in size
could not be assimilated into miniaturised metabolisms.

Also, I seem faintly to recall something about Captain Owens'
extending a reduced miniaturising field along the snorkel.  They
obviously couldn't do a full effect, since the entire capacity of a
man's lungs couldn't begin to fill a sub's ballast tanks if they are
on the same scale; and they only had access to a single alveolus.
But they could probably get a decent compromise size.

Hope this helps.
Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 15 Aug 1985 09:52-EDT
From: sdl@Mitre-Bedford
Cc: sunybcs!ugzannin@topaz, sdl@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Re: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"???

>Well, wouldn't there be a problem with the size of the air
>molecules?  I mean, when the sub was miniaturized, the air inside
>it was shrunken also.  Now, wouldn't there be at least a bogus air
>pressure reading when they fill up with normal air that hasn't been
>miniaturized?  For that matter, would the air molecules even be
>able to fit into the sub?

There were a lot of such inconsistencies in the movie that Asimov
tried to patch in the book.  In this case, Asimov wrote that the
submarine had a portable miniaturizer on board, and was
miniaturizing the air as it came in.  Of course, this means that the
volume of air before miniaturization was sufficient to fill a
normal-sized submarine's tanks; sucking in this much air through the
patient's lungs should have had a noticeable effect.

Another mistake occurred near the end of the movie, when the
submarine is ingested/destroyed by the white corpuscles.  Even
destroyed, the fragments of the submarine after deminiaturization
would be the same mass (and comparable volume) of the original
submarine, which should have exploded the patient from within.
Asimov tried to patch this one in the book, by having the white
corpuscles follow the explorers out of the patient's body.

The problem with "Fantastic Voyage" is that they could never figure
out a consistent relationship between the principle of
miniaturization and the conservation of mass.

Steven Litvintchouk
(617)271-7753
ARPA:  sdl@mitre-bedford
UUCP:  ...{allegra,decvax,genrad,ihnp4,philabs,security,utzoo}
       !linus!bccvax!sdl

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"???
Date: 14 Aug 85 16:48:47 GMT

Oh boy. More Fantastic Voyage flames!

> Just the other night I watched the movie "The Fantastic Voyage".
> I had seen it several years ago and I had also read the book back
> when I was in 6th grade, so I really didn't catch everything the
> first time through.  Now, almost 10 years later, I finally got to
> see it again and found what may be a mistake on Isaac Asimov's
> part.

Asimov didn't write the screenplay. He wrote the book based on the
screenplay.  Read the book and you'll see the answer to the
following question is...

>    Remember when the submarine ran into a problem and lost some
> air out of the ballast tanks?  The solution was to push the sub's
> snorkel through the wall of an alveoli in the guy's lung and get
> some air when he inhaled.  Well, wouldn't there be a problem with
> the size of the air molecules?  I mean, when the sub was
> miniaturized, the air inside it was shrunken also.  Now, wouldn't
> there be at least a bogus air pressure reading when they fill up
> with normal air that hasn't been miniaturized?  For that matter,
> would the air molecules even be able to fit into the sub?

In the book they used the miniaturiser on the air in the guy's
lungs, and at one point someone comments that "we're pulling air
from the room straight through his tissues", or words to that
effect. The question then becomes why they bothered with the lungs
in the first place, but don't blame Asimov for that one.

There's a worse problem with the movie: they leave the spaceship
inside the guy! But don't blame Asimov. He didn't have anything to
do with it.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: SF in music.
Date: 14 Aug 85 17:17:48 GMT

A bit late, I know... but I just heard Pat Benatar's "My clone
sleeps alone".  Has anyone mentioned this one yet?

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: "cute" Ewoks
Date: 12 Aug 85 13:45:48 GMT

>      There has been much speculation about the ability of little
> Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film.  I would
> agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so
> some of the item seen would have been built; another idea
> presented by someone here was that the Storm- troopers had been a
> problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already
> been fighting back.
>      Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater
> capability than they have been credited with.  I think there has
> been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss
> any possibility of heavy work quickly.  I submit, however, that
> four to six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty
> Ewoks, using a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the
> stripped log.  Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into
> a pile restrained by a keystone-type lever.
>      The Ewoks would seem to be early-to-middle Paleolithic.  They
> have learned fire, sophisticated weapons-making, and have a tribal
> structure in what does not appear to be a nomadic society.
> Moreover, they have had some exposure to the modern technology of
> the Empire.  None of the activity attributed to them would be
> beyond a humanoid culture at the same stage of development.  It is
> anthrocentristic to deny small, furry people the same
> capabilities.  The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies
> would have become had a non-interference directive kept them
> uncontaminated by man.

(Place rasberry here) Rubbish!, spare me a load of rationalization.
I don't really give a rip wether their stage of development could
make them serious competitors or not.  They were chosen by a human
to emphasize characteristics we consider "cute".  This does not in
my mind aid the plot, it keeps us from taking them seriously just
like cartoonization keeps people from taking bears seriously (which
are certainly serious creatures) and gets some of them hurt.  The
point is that this was vastly detrimental to the plot which would
have been much better if he had used characters we could have taken
seriously rather than ones we tend to associate with defenseless or
harmless creatures.

>>. . .otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them
>>tying them up et al.
>This isn't realistic belief.  If I'm busy shooting down Ewoks in
>front of me with my blaster while Ewoks to me left, right, and
>behind are filling me full of arrows and spears, I'm going to be as
>dead as any Ewoks I shoot.

  Perhaps.  but I think that if the ewoks had not learned by now to
scatter when they caught blaster fire there would be no ewoks.  They
showed themselves a primitive god worshipping race.  In keeping with
this I would expect they would have been a little less blase about
large people who fling fire from from their fingertips, I know one
of our primitive societies would.  With stubby arms combined with
their small size it would be difficult to put any force behind one
of those sticks and the bows if my fuzzy memory serves me were a
joke.  Seriously, one good Uzi would have taken the whole lot out
Which brings up another question.  Where is the futuristic hand held
machine gun?

>>Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a
>>serious character which is to give storm troopers any competition.
>>This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels.
>If Mr. Albrecht read them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't
>serious characters or were capable of little beyond "yeeking" and
>"smokko", then he missed a very great deal.

Oh, there's no question the fuzzies where intelligent this, after
all, was the point of the whole series.  But as to being a physical
threat I think not.  Creatures that size learn the same response to
a larger predator that I have with large unfriendly animals when I'm
only armed with a sharp stick (I don't know about you but I run).

David Albrecht
General Electric

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 85 1056-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #329
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 329

Today's Topics:

          Books - Niven (3 msgs) & MacCaffrey vs Cherryh,
          Films - Real Genius & Warlords of the 21st Century,
          Music - SF in Music,
          Television - Doll Stories,
          Miscellaneous - NASFiC & How to Communicate &
                  Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 85 10:42:07 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Protectors
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

How could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector (in "Down In Flames")
if he was well over 200 years old? Simple. Boosterspice kept his
physical age down to 30 or so.
                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Pak Protectors
Date: 14 Aug 85 01:10:57 GMT

>From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
>>   Bigger question, though.  This one has always bothered me about
>> Niven's universe.  What the heck happens to Home after the
>> Protectors left to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win,
>> because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.  But what
>> happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating
>> in the atmosphere ?  It bugs me.
>
> My guess would be that the Home Protectors continue to keep the
> human race as a whole as its charge, looking out for us and
> keeping us out of trouble. The Home colony was given as a failure
> in the timeline in "Tales of Known Space", and "Protector" has, at
> least for me, the impression of being a report that was never seen
> by most of humanity - the Protecors probably just kept Home for
> themselves as a base. Keep in mind that Protectors live a LONG
> time, O(10Kyears), so they need not even supplement their numbers
> very often.

!! I wonder !!

In my copy of PROTECTOR it is stated that the Pak are mostly dumb
browsers and couldn't be dangerous to ANYONE. . . hence the Pak
Protector, who WAS.  The Protectors on Home originally fought to
protect ``their'' Pak (each Pak ``clan'' had its own Protector(s));
but the Pak on Home (the ONLY Pak, short of the attempted
colonization of some world way out in the spiral arms. . .)  were
dead.

The Pak Protectors left Home because Phssthpok had shown them the
records that a group of Pak had indeed left, and therefore might be
the only Pak alive.  And the Pak Protectors HAD to protect Pak, else
they would die.  Of course, when they discovered that we were
mutated (and thus not-Pak and thus to be destroyed. . .  Which
Brennan managed somehow to change, probably by the evidence that
these WERE the only Pak or near-Pak around.

The Pak Protectors took on protecting humans because we are
NEAR-Pak, and all that remains of the Pak race, short of the
Protectors themselves.

Or did I totally mis-read the first part of PROTECTOR?

(I read R.E.; I saw nothing incompatible, in fact PROTECTOR
explained R.E.  to me.)

Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa;
ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032

------------------------------

From: bottom@katadn.DEC
Subject: Re: Protectors
Date: 15 Aug 85 17:42:44 GMT

Beowolf Scheaffer becomes a Protector? I missed that one.

What story/book did this happen in?

Thanks...
Dave Bottom
 DEC Augusta Maine
!dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: Cherryh vs. McCaffrey
Date: 15 Aug 85 20:22:00 GMT

>>>May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin.  I
>>>will struggle to do the same.  I concede that McCaffrey may be a
>>>'low taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters
>>>with some personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly.
>
>And gee, on the local bulletin boards we just had a discussion
>about how bad her male characters are. They all talk like a '50s
>western.
>
>I like her stuff, but to compare Cherryh unfavorably with her? Ick.

HA!!  McCaffrey is wonderful!  Her books always have an accessible
plot which the reader can recognize in minutes by relating the
current book to any of her other works.  Her protagonists lose
nothing in the translation from book to book, nor do they suffer a
change in personality to match their name changes and her minor
caricatures never get in the way of her plots.  Many authors could
learn something about consistency from her; her readers always know
what they are going to get from a McCaffrey book.

CJ Cherryh, on the other hand, has actually had the *gall* to vary
her writing style between books.  She throws in plot twists that
surprise her readers when they absolutely *knew* what was going to
happen next.  She even forces the poor reader to acquaint himself
with a character from *scratch*, no prior referents allowed (her
characters even mature as time passes), as if anyone really needs a
new person at the center of each story.  Her alien societies feel
totally foreign to human experience; how can she expect any reader
to relate to that?

Give me McCaffrey any day, that way I won't have to think too much.

All this may have something to do with why I only have all 23 (24?)
of CJ Cherryh's books sitting on my shelf, but have an entire three
of Anne McCaffrey's.
                                the Shadow
                                ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                                UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 85 10:29:04 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Real Genius
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Dave Mankins (dm@bbn-vax.arpa) writes:
>the walls covered with grafitti (my god, I'm considering going back
>to this movie just to concentrate on the graffiti alone!)

Pacific Tech is loosely based on Caltech (at which I'm a student).
The director and stars of the film visited Tech last fall, and they
wanted to shoot the movie there but Tech wouldn't let them for some
reason. A lot of the stuff that goes on at PacTech has happened at
Caltech; just not quite as often.

Anyway, the dorm that was shown in the movie is a fairly close copy
of Dabney House at Caltech, including the huge Saturn mural and all
the graffiti.  If you would like to come to Pasadena sometime, you
can wander through Dabney house (don't worry; Darbs are mellow, no
one will bother you) and read an entire dorm-full of such stuff.

Needless to say, I think Real Genius is a wonderful, funny movie and
everyone should see it, regardless of what they think of Caltech.

                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Thu Aug 15 21:56:37 1985
From: mcb@lll-tis-b (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Mad Max Ripoffs

> From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
> THUNDER WARRIORS is Canon Group's rip-off of the Mad Max movies.
> In retrospect, I'm surprised that no one has tried to rip-off the
> concept before this.

Actually, there have been quite a few of them. The one I saw most
recently was an Italian version, true to the "spaghetti" form and
filmed inexpensively, I believe, in Spain or northern Africa.  The
title escapes me at present.

The most memorable was WARLORDS OF THE 21ST CENTURY, which made it
to cable TV, and was made in New Zealand. (It was fun to try to
figure out where it was filmed while watching; certainly the plot
didn't get in the way.) The story was highly predictable, but there
were some interesting moments. I can't remember any of the cast
except that John Ratzenberger played a minor character. (He's Cliff
in "Cheers".)

Michael C. Berch
mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
{akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: Hawkwind's Science Fiction in Music
Date: 16 Aug 85 07:03:19 GMT

Re the vocal background you describe in "The Phenomenon of
Luminosity":

This sounds like John Glenn, describing what he saw outside his
space capsule just after using the urine dump.

Bill Laubenheimer
UC-Berkeley Computer Science
ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: Thu 15 Aug 85 13:04:02-EDT
From: William.Chiles@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Subject: Zoning Gallery Dolls

There were two doll stories that I remember, one from Night Gallery
and one from The Zone.

The latter was described in a previous post, so I'll only say that
it was about a bitter man ruining the lives of his mate and daughter
until one day his daughter obtains a doll that shows her the love
she never had.  The father cannot destroy the doll for all his
efforts, and the doll finally kills him for not leaving well enough
alone.  Besides the mate and child wished for his death as well.

The Night Gallery episode, which is actually what the original query
was after, concerned an ex-British officer that had served in
Africa, India, or some such place during periods of war and
occupation.  He was responsible via orders from higher up that he
had to obey or lose his job to kill many people wherever he was
stationed.  One man he killed was a ruthless criminal (or some such
person).  Many years later in Britian, the officer lives with his
niece or daughter and a nanny, and one day a doll arrives.  The
nanny assumes it is a gift from her employer to the littler girl, so
she lets the little girl play with it even though the nanny finds it
offensively ugly.  The officer immediately recognizes it as a witch
doctor device from his days in India (I'll settle on a place).  He
knows it is useless to get rid of it, and he catches it smiling at
him sometimes.  His little girl soon realizes the doll is ripping to
shreds her other dolls, and she is frightened by it because it says
mean things to her.  The officer draws up a will leaving everything
to the nanny to care for the girl, and he dies.  The episode ends
with some guy, who you know is the source of the doll, receiving a
gift from a delivery boy.  The gift is a two foot doll resembling
the British officer.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 15 AUG 85 17:03-EDT
From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re: NASFiC in Austin Texas

(Doubtless you've gotten lots of responses by now, but...)

(This is being written from memory from PR3, received yesterday)

This year's NASFiC, the Lone Star Con and Occasional Chilli
Cook-Off, is in Austin, Texas, from August 30th through September
2nd.  It is now past the cut-off date for mail-in memberships
(August 1st).  (Registration is in the Convention Center, 10am to
6pm(?), including on Thursday, Aug. 29.)

All of the blocked rooms in the main Con hotels (Hyatt Regency and
Sheraton) are full, (although some of the expensive rooms are still
available...).

There are lots of cheaper hotels/motels, of course, but most are
farther from the ?? Convention Center. (I don't remember the name,
it's next to the Hyatt.)

The Sheraton is the party hotel and the ConSuite is there.  (No open
door parties allowed in the Hyatt, and they insist on supplying all
beverages. The Sheraton has a corkage rule too, but their garage
connects directly to the second floor...)  The Chilli Cook-Off will
be in the Con Suite: provide your own crack-, uh, crock-pot, and
about a gallon of chilli. The ConCom reccommends that you cook and
freeze it at home, thawing it at the Con. Pearl onions are an
automatic disqualification.  The Masquerade will be at the Sheraton
(50 entries of 2 minutes max), as will daytime movies. No children's
masquerade, but prizes for hallway costumes.  The Hyatt will house
the main programs (5 tracks), author readings and night-time movies.

The Art show, dealer's room and special-interest displays will be in
the CC. Both the Art show and the dealer's room are full: no
at-the-door entries are available.

No food or beverage may be brought into the Convention Center.  PR3
made a big point of this.  Apparently the people (?) with the food
concessions (in the huckster's room) can get the Con thrown out if
they catch anybody bringing stuff in.

Selden Ball
Cornell University, LNS    NYNEX: (607) 256-4882
Wilson Synchrotron Lab     BITNET: SEB@CRNLNS
Dryden Road                ARPA: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Ithaca, NY  14853

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: How to communicate attitudes (and avoid flames!)
Date: 14 Aug 85 20:23:10 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>>[...from a review of Mark Leeper's review of WEIRD SCIENCE..]
>>When the boys programmed the computer to create her, they fed in
>>pictures of Albert Einstein for her intelligence component, and
>>pictures of David Lee Roth for her personality traits, in addition
>>to many Playboy centerfolds for her physical characteristics.
>>This makes it obvious how she can manipulate peoples minds, of
>>course!
>
>Huh?  Are you telling me that all of Einstein's knowledge was
>printed somewhere on his face?  There is more to being a genius
>than knowing what Einstein looked like!

    We really have to have some way to communicate sarcasm without a
smiley face. Clearly the review of the review was a "Gosh! really?"
type observation on the film's rather obvious "misrepresentations of
reality". In "Valentina: Soul in Sapphire" by Delaney and Steigler
(pico-review: large program becomes sentient) they used the
convention of giving facial expressions in angle brackets.  Using
this convention the last sentence of the comment might be rendered
as:

    "<sardonic smile, light laugh> This makes it obvious how she can
manipulate people's minds, of course!"

        While this is a bit clumsy to read at first, familiarity
breeds contentment <raised eyebrow, smirk>. I strongly recommend
that we adopt the convention (at least until something better comes
along <light laugh>).

Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo
gjerawlins%watdaisy@waterloo.csnet
gjerawlins%watdaisy%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
{allegra|clyde|linus|utzoo|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins

------------------------------

Subject: What to do when the aliens arrive.
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1985 09:52 EDT

When the first creature from another planet first sets foot,
(tenticle, pod, or whatever it may 'set'), on Earth, if it is within
our power to do so, we should kill it and eat it.

E.T. and Close encounters of the Third Kind aside, real extra
terrestrials are unlikely to be so kind and benevolent. A space
faring race of beings would be way ahead of us technologically.
Being the case, and assuming a continued interaction of two cultures
that are many orders of magnitude removed from each other
technologically, the less advanced race, (us) would undoubtedly
suffer a wide spread collapse of sociological coherance.

Consider the cases on Earth that, during the colonial era of 70 to
200 years ago, left advanced western/european societies imposing
many of their cultural norms on the countries/areas they occupied.
The American Indian, Australian Aboriginal and much of Black Africa
today still suffers from the colonial period. Their loosely
organized societies were unable to stand up to the much more
structured cultures of the colonial powers.

That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would
undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology would
be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of their
advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be required.

Does anyone know of any Sci-fi that deals with this issue? Most I've
read runs along these lines;

1) The E.T. type- benevolent cuddly aliens
2) The Childhood's End type- powerful saviors
3) War of the Worlds type- violent encounters
4) The Janissaries- slavers

Oh well enough for now. I would be interested in titles/authors that
have tried to approach the issue of cultural interaction between
very different cultures.

Bye
Jim White

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 85 1123-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #330
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 330

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cherryh & Delany & Hughart &
                        Niven (2 msgs) & Generation Ships,
                Music - Rhiannon,
                Television - Doll Stories,
                Miscellaneous - Star Trek Stamp & Aliens &
                        Critics & Black Holes & 
                        Non-Carbon Life & Ewoks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine)
Subject: Re: chanur's venture
Date: 15 Aug 85 18:29:31 GMT

>>But what was the first book? What is the third? Is the third book
>>out in paperback yet?
>>Thanks..........Dave Bottom
>>Digital Augusta Maine !dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom (207) 623-6935
>
>The Chanur's Pride Novels:
>       The Pride of Chanur [1982]
>       Chanur's Venture [1984]
>       Chanur's Revenge [1985]
>Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo

The hardcover edition of the latest Chanur book is entitled not
"Chanur's Revenge" but "The Kif Strike Back."  (Ouch!)  As it
happens, I had the opportunity to ask C. J. Cherryh about the title
change this weekend.  She told me that she's planning a total of
FOUR Chanur books.  "The Pride of Chanur" is a stand-alone novel, to
be followed by a trilogy of which "Chanur's Venture" is the first
book.

The story behind the title switch is this: At some point, she joked
in an editor's hearing that she wanted to title the trilogy

        "Chanur's Revenge",
        "The Kif Strike Back", and
        "Chanur Cleans House" (!!)

By that time, "Chanur's Venture" had already been firmly titled, but
the editor decided to USE "The Kif Strike Back".  However, the third
book will actually be titled "Chanur's Homecoming."  (Well, we'll
see.)

David D. Levine
(...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl)          [UUCP]
(teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 85 08:13 EST
From: Henry Vogel <henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Dhalgren

I was intrigued by the person (sorry, I've deleted that message so I
don't know what your name is) who claimed to never have met anyone
who didn't think Dhalgren was great, wonderful, or whatever. To
contrast that, I only know *one* person who would agree with him -
and it's not me. I've read other books by Delany that I thought were
excellent, but Dhalgren just wasn't for me.

The friend who loves it also runs a newsstand/bookstore which he
keeps well stocked with science fiction. I was in there one time
when he was trying to get someone to try a new sf novel. The person
was reluctant to try it and, since I had just finished it and
enjoyed it, I told him I had also liked the book. He still looked
reluctant. On a hunch, I said, "I thought Dhalgren sucked."
Suddenly, the reluctance disappeared and he bought the book.

Henry Vogel
henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: _Bridge_of_Birds_
Date: 16 Aug 85 14:52:16 GMT

Here's a recommendation for Barry Hughart's _Bridge_of_Birds_.  It's
almost as good as finding a new Ernest Brama, except that BofB has
more supernatural happenings and every other sentence is not an
aphorism.  (Now, if I could only find copies of my own of
_Kai_Lung's_Golden_Hours_ and _Kai_Lung_Unrolls_His_Mat_.  Or wait
until BofB's sequel is out.)  BofB is funny.  Oh, and it's a fantasy
of a China that never was (which I think is just how the Kai Lung
books have been described, too)--I mention it just so those
expecting some sort of space opera or evidence of historical
accuracy won't be lead astray.

L S Chabot
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Protectors and the Ringworld
Date: 13 Aug 85 17:22:47 GMT

MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:

>2) The Ringworld was built by an expedition that left Pak in a
>  different direction and later sent a secondary expedition in the
>  direction of Sol.  This would have to have occured before the Sol
>  expedition, else Pthsspok would have found the records of their
>  having solved the Thalium Oxide problem (you can bet he looked).
>  It is possible that records before the Sol expedition could have
>  been lost, but highly unlikely that records of an expedition
>  after the Sol one would have been lost without also losing the
>  the Sol records. The original expedition must have been in pretty
>  good shape to send out a party capable of building the Ringworld.
>  With only slower than light ships, why bother to send them as far
>  away as they must have? There must have been other habitable
>  systems closer to where they were. They couldn't have been in the
>  neighborhood of Sol originally because they would surely have
>  left other artifacts around. We are talking a LARGE neighborhood
>  here, since the Puppeteers conducted commerce in a VERY large
>  region of space. If they had evidence of other Pak civilizations
>  in the area, there probably would have been some mention of the
>  fact.

The ringworld could have been founded not by protectors from the
home world, but from somewhere else.  Maybe there are ringworlds all
around the galaxy.  The Pak could have left to found them a LONG
time before.

Another possibility: the key to growing tree-of-life may have been
discovered on the ringworld.

------------------------------

Subject: Protectors and Home
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 85 13:40:22 EDT

I seem to recall that in "The Ringworld Engineers" Louis Wu makes a
remark (mentally or verbally) about Home having been recently
re-colonized.
                               Michael Johnson

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: generation ships
Date: 13 Aug 85 02:44:47 GMT

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but
_Rendevous_With_Rama_ fits into the generation ship category.  Sort
of...
                                                -- Scott
The Ramans do everything in threes...  Can we expect a trilogy,
then?

------------------------------

From: tekecs!waltt@topaz.arpa (Walt Tucker)
Subject: Re: SF in music (Stevie Nicks)
Date: 14 Aug 85 21:20:07 GMT

> From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>> From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey)
>> And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed
>> to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's
>> still around?
>
> While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh
> myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about
> such.

Check out the "Fleetwood Mac Live" album (released following the
Tusk tour).

On the live album, there is a version of Rhiannon that Fleetwood Mac
recorded in London.  As is the custom with many live albums, the
performers do some sort of introduction to the song.  Over the
opening chords of Rhiannon, Stevie Nicks says:

    "This is a song...(small pause)...about a Welsh Witch"

    (background noise of crowd fades up then down... then
     "Rhiannon rings like bells in the night, etc, etc,
      ....
      ....
      dreams unwind, love's a state of mind, etc, etc...)

Case closed.

Incidently, this version of Rhiannon is longer than the studio
version, and contains some other lyrics not heard on the original.
Actually, I like the live version better.

                       -- Walt Tucker
                          Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

From: kovacs!jim@topaz.arpa (jim)
Subject: Re: Night Gallery
Date: 12 Aug 85 05:27:52 GMT

>> From: Will Duquette <engvax!ymir!4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@cit-vax>
>> The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the
>> hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved
>> a grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl....
> Actually, this was an episode of the Twilight Zone starring Telly
> Savalas (bald even then) as the little girl's father.  The doll
> (and also, I think, the episode) was named "Talking Tina"...

The Twilight Zone title is "Living Doll". The doll, "Talky Tina",
only threatens Erich Streator (Savalas) when no one else is around.
When he throws the doll in the garbage for the first time, it
escapes and phones him with a death threat. He tries to burn the
doll, then tries to saw off its head; both attempts fail. The wife,
Annabelle, thinking poor Erich has lost his mind, plans to take her
daughter Christie and leave him. Erich, who now thinks maybe he *is*
going insane, decides to give the doll back to his step-daughter.
But late that night, he trips on the doll and falls down the stairs
to his death. The ending: Annabelle rushes to him and then picks up
the doll. It says: "My name is Talky Tina, *and you'd better be nice
to me!*"

PS. - The voice of "Talky Tina" was that of June Foray, who also did
      "Rocky the Flying Squirrel".

-Jim-

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1985 12:16:43 EDT (Fri)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek stamp

FYI, from Bob Levey's Washington, in The Washington Post, 15 August
85.

Let me level with you.  ``Star Trek'' does not make my blood race.
But for others, it's more than a TV show.  It's a vision of the
future.

And now it may become a commemorative postage stamp.

Carolee C. Davis of Derwood, Md., is spearheading a drive to get the
Postal Service to issue a stamp in 1986 marking the 20th anniversary
of S.T.  If you'd like to hop aboard Carolee's bandwagon, write to:

U.S. Postal Service, Philatelic Sales Division, Washington, D.C.,
20625-6300.

Dan Hoey

------------------------------

From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: Who's out there ...
Date: 14 Aug 85 13:49:00 GMT

LYang.es@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>Even if there was life of other forms, we may not be able to
>communicate with any of them.  We might as well be alone.

Since there is strong evidence that we can't even communicate with
each other (see "The History of Garbage -- USENET in the Making")
when we share a common language, cultural background, basic
education, etc. -- that shouldn't be overly surprising.  And for
real depression: try locking two politicians from opposing countries
in a room together and see how much "communication" gets
accomplished.  [Even better: read the "local" papers in each country
after the politicians return to see how well they understood what
the other was saying...]

                Marvin

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@topaz.arpa (Racer X)
Subject: Re: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me
Date: 15 Aug 85 15:17:52 GMT

Oh, for cryin' out loud!

Why don't you get off you goddamn soapbox, you pompous jerk.  Or is
it too much to lower yourself to the level of us "barbaric",
"uneducated" peons?

There is a clear difference between "art" and a "good read".  It
lies in the fact that a good read is something judged by *the
reader*, according to *his/her* tastes.  "Art" is too often
determined by a bunch of egocentric idiots who think they know it
all because they were "educated" (by a similar bunch of idiots,
naturally).  What the hell is art, anyway?  It's usually a
COMPLETELY ARBITRARY evaluation, and as such, meaningless.

Art, as you seem to espouse it, differs little from the "gurus" who
decide (for the world, or at least those foolhardy enough to pay
attention) what colors and fashions will be "in" two years from now.

                        Scott J. Berry

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@topaz.arpa (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Black Holes and Time
Date: 14 Aug 85 23:13:21 GMT

I've recently been reading several SF books on black holes and their
local physical properties when this wild thought struck me.  Namely,
as Larry Niven and others point out, the gravity well around a black
hole can produce tidal effects in objects.  Fine.  Carry the effects
of the black hole a little farther, such as in Frederick Pohl's
Heechee Chronicles series where time slows increasingly with
gravitational intensity.  Ahhhh.  Now we get to it: what about "time
tides"?  (An inappropriate description, perhaps, but it rolls off
the tongue nicely.)

If you/(the object of your choice) are close enough to the black
hole so that the gravity gradient is very steep, then, say you
extend your left arm toward the black hole (assuming it doesn't rip
off) and your right arm radially away from the hole, wrist-watches
on each arm would show different times, indeed they would be running
at different rates.  The philosophical question then becomes, what
happens to a body that experiences different time rates at different
locations?  Your left hand stays relatively young, while the right
gets grey with age (not to mention that all the blood leaves your
right hand and swells up the left; I'm ignoring such troublesome
details).  Perhaps the question is: what is the physical effect of
an accelerating, localized "time field".

Am I missing something basic here?  Is there any reference to this
aspect of black holes in the SF literature?

Don Chitwood
Teklabs
Tektronix, Inc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 85 22:41:42 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Non carbon based life

  Forward's "Dragon's Egg" concerns beings made of neutronium and/or
degenerate matter.
  Stapledon's "Star Maker" includes (among other things) beings that
are stars, and beings that are galaxies.  I believe that this is the
first mention of such things (1937).  This is also the book in which
'Dyson' spheres are first mentioned.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re: "Cute" Ewoks
Date: 17 Aug 85 09:21:08 GMT

mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) writes:
>The Ewoks had to prepare for walkers emerging from the installation
>in any direction, unless they were to rely on really incredible
>luck.

     Alternatively, the Ewoks can lead their pursuers where they
want them to go, and are seen doing so in the film.  The Indians
used this tactic against the army.  The British fell victim to it in
Africa more than once.

>Second, note that the defenses were specifically oriented to
>fighting the Imperials.

     As I said in my message, I agree with the idea that the
Imperials had already been a problem for the Ewoks.  Even if the
particular traps we saw were not already in place, the concepts had
probably been around for some weeks or months.  The bugs had already
been worked out of the system.

>Finally, I think you underestimate the difficulty of building some
>of these things with primitive tools.  Consider medieval siege
>engines, which took weeks to build with better tools.  A pile of
>logs (one of the simpler devices) seems trivial, but it must be set
>up to be stable until you are ready to use it, then go rolling
>quickly in the proper direction when released.  I would expect a
>modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right.

     None of the assemblies shown in the film were nearly as
complicated as a siege engine.  Knowing the concept in advance, I
have no doubt that a U.S. Navy Seabee battalion could duplicate
either in just a few hours, even if restricted to hand tools.

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Aug 85 1142-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #331
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 331

Today's Topics:

            Books - Delany & Niven & Robinson & Wyndham,
            Films - Andromeda Strain (2 msgs) &
                    The Fantastic Voyage,
            Television - Saturday Morning Cartoons,
            Miscellaneous - Magic vs Technology & Critics (2 msgs) &
                    Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bcsaic!randy@topaz.arpa (randy groves)
Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren
Date: 14 Aug 85 16:31:45 GMT

jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes:
>Most people don't find Dhalgren their cup of tea, and I can
>certainly understand that.  However, Delany can write the socks off
>practically any other modern writer, even when you hate his
>material.  It's well worth anyone's while to go to the library and
>take out Dhalgren to see if you like it.

I heartily agree.  It's been some time since I read Dhalgren or any
Delany, but I can remember being involved and taken to a place that
I did not fully understand, but could identify with at some gut
level that was very striking.  Some of the scenes and occurrences in
Dhalgren also correspond to a mind operating in an expanded, altered
state.

randy groves
...!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy

------------------------------

From: garfield!dave@topaz.arpa (David Janes)
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 12 Aug 85 16:13:05 GMT

godwin@uci-icse (Dave Godwin) writes:
>       Bigger question, though.  This one has always bothered me
> about Niven's universe.  What the heck happens to Home after the
> Protectors left to beat off the Pak ?  Obviously, our guys win,
> because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown.  But
> whathappens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus
> floating in the atmosphere ?  It bugs me.

Probably the remaining human Pak removed the Tree-Of-Life virus from
the atmosphere. They had to remove all the destroyed 'cities', etc.
also because this would let normal humans know about thier existence
(it would have been mentioned if the ruins had been later found.) I
believe it is mentioned in one of the _Ringworld_ books that Louis
Wu had been on Home for some reason or another (i.e. Home was
resettled.)

dave
UUCP: {utcsri,ihnp4,allegra,mcvax}!garfield!dave
INTERNET: dave@garfield.uucp
CDNNET: dave@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: Sat 17 Aug 85 22:05:31-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Spider Robinson

Mr Robinson's longer and more discursive reviews can be found in
back numbers (there are no other numbers) of Destinies magazine,
under the title "Spider vs. the hax of Sol III".  One word of
authentic text is worth a pile of commentary, but at least let me
impose upon your patience to say that, for me, one of Spider's more
endearing qualities is that he doesn't tell me what I ought to like.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: John Wyndham detective novels--wanted
Date: 16 Aug 85 15:13:13 GMT

> From: cdstar!saltiel
> I have read all of Wyndham's Science Fiction(Day_of_the_Trifids,
> The_Chrysalids, etc.,) or all that I know exists. He is unusual in
> that genre, in that he write prose suburbly, (or did when he was
> alive.)

That's not as unusual as you might think, but I'll let it pass.
> He has also authored a number of detective novels that are all out
> of print.  Can anyone identify these works and where I might find
> them in any condition??

Allen J. Hubin's CRIME FICTION, 1749-1980: A COMPREHENSIVE
BIBLIOGRAPHY (New York: Garland, 1984), which is without question
the best such work in the mystery field, only lists one detective
novel by John Wyndham (real name: John Wyndham Parkes Lucas Beynon
Harris) --- FOUL PLAY SUSPECTED, under the by-line John Beynon. It
was published by Newnes in 1935. Since Hubin is in the habit of
listing both the first US *and* first UK edition of a book, it's
unlikely that there was ever an American edition. Finding it might
prove difficult in the US.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question
Date: 17 Aug 85 01:20:50 GMT

The difference is that although there are waldos, etc., there is
still some chance of contamination through a faulty seal, etc.  Why
does a surgeon scrub his/her hands before an operation?  He/She is
just going to put gloves on on top of them anyway. :-)

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question
Date: 14 Aug 85 15:37:10 GMT

judith@proper.UUCP (judith) writes:
>I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began
>to wonder about this recently.  As the scientists who are to
>investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab
>complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected,
>weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean
>when they get to the lowest level.
>
>What for?
>
>They never interact with anything important except through waldos
>and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the
>difference?

The part of the installation outside the isolation chamber has neato
detectors that shoot off alarms if they find any micro-organisms in
the air.  This is a reasonable precaution, considering that the
micro-organisms may be nasty.  To avoid false alarms, all benign
micro-organisms were removed from all personnel going to that level.

(Since any alarm started the countdown on a nuke, they were
justifiably concerned about avoiding false ones.)

                                Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"???
Date: 16 Aug 85 04:00:00 GMT

If you think it's bad leaving a submarine inside the guy (people say
that the white cell left the body with the crew) there is something
far worse.

The miniturization is done as a two stage process.  First the sub is
shrunk, and then it's put in a 50 gallon syringe which is further
shrunk.  When that expands, boy is the patient going to need to go
to the bathroom like you wouldn't believe!

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: utai!wjr@topaz.arpa (William Rucklidge)
Subject: Re: Ewoks and NutraSweet (really saturday morning SW)
Date: 14 Aug 85 14:14:26 GMT

rubin@mtuxn.UUCP (M.RUBIN) writes:
> Two Saturday morning cartoons called "Droids" and "Ewoks"
> respectively are scheduled for this fall (NBC, around 9AM,
> replacing "Mighty Orbots", I think).  Does anybody know whether
> they will be animated by Lucasfilm or by some random
> hanna-barbarians?

From what I have heard, the animation for these shows is being done
by Nelvana, a Toronto-based animation studio, who did (I believe)
the Care Bear movie. Nelvana have also made a couple of animated
specials for television: "Rome-0 and Julie-8" (a robot love story...
who coulda guessed) and "Take Me Up to the Ball Game" (interstellar
baseball).

William Rucklidge                       University of Toronto
UUCP    {ihnp4  utzoo   decwrl  uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr
CSNet   wjr@toronto             BITNET  wjr at utoronto

------------------------------

Subject: Magic vs technology
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 85 13:42:21 EDT

In an earlier posting I remarked that I thought Marion Zimmer
Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" was a good example of the magic vs
technology theme. I think maybe a little clarification is in order.

The magic in this case is that of the priests and priestesses of the
Druidic religion, centered around (and personified by) Morgan and
the Isle of Avalon.

The technology is a little more subtle. What seems to be primitive
to you and me was in its day the highpoint of technological
accomplishment. In the setting of "Mists of Avalon" the technology
is represented by Arthur and Launcelot.  Arthur is very much a
temporal figure. He is (in the context of the story) responsible for
the destruction of the old magic, by letting the Romans and their
technology into the primitive, magical kingdom of ancient Briton.
Arthur is shown as turning away from the old ways to embrace the new
ones, leaving behind the magical power to gain the technological
power which is the only way he can see to save his kingdom from
chaos.

There is also a conflict between Christianity (represented by
Guinevere) and the Druidic religion. Christianity in this case goes
hand in hand with the technology, since both have their roots in the
Roman empire.

Too little sleep and too much to do, so I will now quietly fade off
into the sunset...
                                 michael johnson

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me
Date: 17 Aug 85 08:37:30 GMT

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>>I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you
>>whether it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read".  To
>>me this indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have
>>nothing to do with each other.  Thank you, I will ignore both
>>*ART* and critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this
>>bias to be pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally
>>gives me no pleasure.
>>              [KEN MOREAU]

There are four kinds of writing: writing that was meant to be
entertaining, and is, but can also be classified as Art (e.g.,
Shakespeare); writing that was meant to be entertaining, and is
nothing more; writing that was meant to be Art, and succeeds, but
can also be read and enjoyed at some lower level; and writing that
was meant to be Art to the exclusion of it possibly be entertaining.
The latter seems to fit your last sentence well.

>> Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust)

. . . has written some light SF that is meant to be entertaining, and
nothing more.  It will certainly be forgotten fifty years after he's
dead.  The same can be said of the man who built my house.  Not all
of us build pyramids, nor should all of us.

Robinson's also written some stories that, while entertaining, also
have the "quality" that we're calling "Art" here.  Every single one
of these stories has been flawed, some more seriously than others.
Robinson has some very strong story telling skills, but he could be
a much better writer.  I keep hoping he'll improve.

> To ignore art because it gives no pleasure is synonomous with
> ignoring edu> cation because it gives no money.

A valid point . . .

> A backward, Luddite, barbarian attitude which makes me wonder how
> anyone who ever held this belief ever got the drive and motivation
> to learn how to read.

. . . but did you ever hear the phrase, "You can catch more flies with
honey than vinegar"?  There's a difference between literary
criticism and "a severe and unfavorable judgement" (Funk and
Wagnalls).  Saying that everyone who disagrees with you is a jerk is
less likely to make a point than to make enemies (or at least to
have people judge your personality rather than your argument).

> This is not idle electronic banter,

I agree.  "Rambling" is a more appropriate word than "banter".

> How many "enjoyable" works have allowed you or forced you to walk
> a mile in another man's shoes ("Soul On Ice"), or understand the
> nature of death ("The Death Of Ivan Ilych"), or feel outrage at
> terrible injustice ("Les Miserables"), or come face to face with
> home and family ("The Last Picture Show"), or realize that
> politics affects individuals as well as societies ("A Tale Of Two
> Cities"), to see the depths of depravity and hatred of self
> ("Notes From Underground", "In The Belly Of The Beast", "Heart Of
> Darkness"), to internalize and gain some knowledge of the human
> condition?

Do you want a list?  Fiction can be "entertaining" in some sense and
still do all those things.

> Remain an intellectual and artistic Helen Keller - but remember
> that she, who had so little ability to appreciate greatness and
> art and love and life, struggled her entire life to appreciate
> those very things which you and Mr. Robinson and so many others of
> your ilk choose to downgrade and spit upon and despise.  I shake
> my head in wonder and awe at the power of ignorance and the
> majesty of barbarianism. And I wish that I did not shake my head
> so often, or so long.  Davis Tucker

I like that statement.  I repeated it because it's stronger out of
context, the context being a sixty line flame.

I'll say something about reviews vs. criticism in a separate article.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: reviews vs. criticism
Date: 17 Aug 85 09:18:49 GMT

All flaming aside, let me take a crack at what I think these two
are, or should be.

A review should get people interested in a story, and say what
people are likely to enjoy it (or not).  This means more than "if
you liked..."  I thought Sheffield's latest novel was trash, but I
loaned it to someone who likes ideas.  (He refused to accept what I
thought was the premise of the story, because said premise is silly,
and thus was less than impressed by the ideas.)  The key word here
is "enjoyment".  This is *not* the same as "mindless enjoyment"; I'm
sure that, in some important sense of the word, Davis Tucker
"enjoyed" reading Delany's TITAN.  (So did I; I had a heck of a
sense of accomplishment when I'd finished it.)  The biggest weakness
is losing track of objectivity ("FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH is the
SF movie I enjoyed the most, so I think you'll like it, too.")

Criticism should be an evaluation of the "quality" of a story.  (For
a good description of "quality", see ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE
MAINTENANCE.  Really.)  Over the years, critics have found patterns
in good and bad stories, and can describe new work in terms of those
patterns.  Some critics, alas, lose track of the importance of
quality, and try to shoehorn round stories into square descriptions.

Anyone care to criticize (not review) these opinions?

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: advanced races
Date: 12 Aug 85 19:17:35 GMT

>From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
>  Aliens will be looking for something that is attractive to them,
>based on their frame of reference; there is no assurance whatever
>that their motivations will make any sense to us.

Our primary motivation is our desire to survive -- ourselves and our
families, primarily; larger groupings to a lesser extent.  Love,
hate, fear, and most other emotions are explainable thereby.  This
desire is an inevitable consequence of evolutionary development.
(Flames to net.origins, please.)  Thus there is every reason to
expect aliens to share it.

Less obvious are things like religion.  There are survival-related
reasons for the development of religion, but it is not clear how
much they relate to details of our development.  Aliens might have
some such institution which would lead them to behavior patterns
which seemed very bizarre to us.

But survival is a quite sufficient reason to colonize other stellar
systems, so it is the most likely one.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 85 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #332
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 332

Today's Topics:

              Books - Clarke & Harrison & MacCaffrey &
                      Niven & Zelazny,
              Films - Fantastic Voyage & Andromeda Strain &
                      The Return of the Living Dead,
              Miscellaneous - Antimatter Girls (2 msgs) &
                      Languages & Types of Magic & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mcgill-vision!mouse@topaz.arpa (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Bring on the Aliens (and group minds)
Date: 16 Aug 85 04:25:30 GMT

> There's a short story by Arthur Clarke (don't remember what it's
> called, but I think it's in SENTINEL) which suggests that the
> reason that we haven't been contacted yet is that we evolved so
> durn fast!

              *** SPOILER FOR "RESCUE PARTY" STORY ***

     I have it in the NINE BILLION NAMES OF GOD collection.  It is
called RESCUE PARTY and is indeed a good story.  By the way, this
story also belongs in the discussion which was going on recently
about group minds in SF.  The Paladorians are one of the more
interesting group minds I've read of.

     "....and on two historic occasions the billions of cells of the
entire Paladorian consciousness had been welded together to deal
with emergencies that threatened the race."

                                        der Mouse

{ihnp4,decvax,akgua,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse
philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat (Really Deathworld)
Date: 16 Aug 85 13:37:38 GMT

If you like the Stainless Steel Rat you'll probably also enjoy
Harrison's Deathworld stories, which consist of three novels and a
short story, that I know of.  The main character, Jason DinAlt, is
similar to Slippery Jim.  I liked Deathworld III best of the series.

                                           Joel

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 85 05:14:44 GMT
From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM
Subject: McCaffrey

>And McCaffrey isn't an Irish name, is it?  Sounds more scottish. I

Yes, it is Irish and yes, it sound Scottish.  The Scottish spelling
would be MacCaffrey.  Irish names aren't just O'somethings (like
mine used to be - O'Dale), but are also McSomething, as well as just
Something.

It is confusing.  When I was tracing my roots, I got confused all
right -- my middle name is as Scottish as they come and my
great-grandfather was an original O'Dale from Ireland.  I could
always use MacRae O'Dale as a pen name, for shock value...

Keith M. Dale
(kdale@minet-vhn-em)
BBN Comm Corp
Stuttgart, W. Germany

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Re: Protectors
Date: 17 Aug 85 14:43:50 GMT

> From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
> How could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector (in "Down In
> Flames") if he was well over 200 years old? Simple. Boosterspice
> kept his physical age down to 30 or so.

Nope. Remember, Louis Wu was too old, and he had been on
Boosterspice for 200 years. Remember too that Ringworld youth drug
conflicted with boosterspice, ane Halrloprilallar died from the
conflict.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 18 Aug 1985 11:09:32-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Trumps of Doom -- Rave Review

                              A Review
                                 of
                  Trumps of Doom by Roger Zelazny

      POSSIBLY INTERPRETABLE AS MINOR SPOILER -- A WARNING!!

Merlin, son of Corwin, Prince of Amber, lived a secluded, quiet life
as a computer engineer in the Shadowland, Earth.  Secretly, he
designs a powerful tool for the Amberites, called "Ghostwheel."  His
routine existence is only interrupted once a year, on April 30, when
an attempt is always made on his life.  When this vicious cycle
leads to the death of a lady friend, the coincidences begin to take
on new meanings.  Merlin leaves his home and, together with his good
friend, Luke, he begins to search for the identity of his hidden
assailant.  Merlin's problems multiply when he is recalled to Amber
and learns that his family, members of the House of Amber, are being
attacked by unknown forces.

Murder and intrigue have never been so mysteriously cloaked as in
the Chronicles of Amber.  Merlin is beset by danger and travail in
this fast-paced novel that opens up a new era in the Amber
Chronicles, and leaves you wanting more...

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1985  3:03:55 GMT (Sunday)
From: Keith Dale <kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa>
Subject: Fantastic Voyage fix

Steven Litvintchouk <sdl@mitre-bedford> wrote:
>The problem with "Fantastic Voyage" is that they could never figure
>out a consistent relationship between the principle of
>miniaturization and the conservation of mass.

How about this as an attempt at an explanation?  As a preface,
though, if you're going to swallow the fact of miniaturization,
you're going to have to accept some pretty flaky assumptions (I
mean, it's got to be on a par with "Beam me up, Scotty!").

  1. The miniaturization process begins with setting up an
     homogeneous field around the object(s) to be mini'ed.
     What kind of field?  Well, a field that reacts in equal
     force or amount to all points within it.  So, Flaky
     Assumption #1 is: this field does not behave according
     to the inverse square rule.

  2. Next, an effect of the field is to reduce energy within
     it's influence by directly converting mass to energy.  The
     energy released is used to sustain the field.  Due to the
     nature of the field, no whole unit of matter is converted
     to energy, but just a part.  The nature of the unit
     of matter is not changed (F.A.#2) and it reduces size in
     proportion to the amount of matter that was converted.

  3. The mass conversion acts on all matter within the field
     equally, so everything is reduced by the same amount.

  4. When you're as small as you want to be, turn off the field.

  5. Since an abnormality in the Grand Scheme of Things exists (a
     proton that *is* a proton, but doesn't have the mass that a
     proton *should*), physical laws begin to reassert themselves
     as soon as the field is shut off.  All miniaturized matter
     attempts to regain normality by gaining energy that will be
     somehow converted back to matter.  How?  I don't know - I've
     never had the chance to interview a scrawny proton before.
     This is definitely F.A.#3.

  6. Assuming that 5. will occur, then we might as well assume
     that the rate of energy reconversion is rapid but requires a
     threshhold point to be reached before matter "grows".  Where
     does this matter get the energy?  From the immediate
     surroundings and according to the inverse square rule; however,
     this would wreak havoc with those surroundings, not to mention
     the patient! So:

  7. Another field is set up that provides a source of energy that
     is specific to miniaturized matter (F.A.#4).  Surrounding
     normal matter is not affected, and you have a definite time
     limit on how long you can stay small before the mass you're
     gaining becomes a problem (say, for the patient that you're
     "inhabiting").  When you exit the patient, the juice can be
     turned up so that you grow more rapidly.  There, that's it.

Please realize, folks, that this isn't meant to be an outline on How
to Get Small.  It's just one way of explaining miniaturization and
the conservation of energy, given that something as improbable as
miniaturization is required, in a manner that seems logical.  Turn
the flames on and have fun with it!

BTW, the whole time I was writing this, a line from ST2:TWoK kept
screaming in my head - "Jim, you proceed from a false assumption."
Don't I know it!

Keith M. Dale
(kdale@minet-vhn-em)
BBN Comm Corp
Stuttgart, W. Germany

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (Cobb)
Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question
Date: 14 Aug 85 13:39:32 GMT

> I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began
> to wonder about this recently.  As the scientists who are to
> investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab
> complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected,
> weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY
> clean when they get to the lowest level.
>
> What for?
>
> They never interact with anything important except through waldos
> and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the
> difference?

The idea is to prevent any *possibility* of contaminating the
organism to be studied/developed.  People still have to handle
equipment; gaskets break; even the best isolation systems can break
down from time to time.  If that happens, there's much less chance
of contaminating the organism from a clean body than a (relatively
speaking) dirty one.  Also, the defense barriers between organisms
being studied and the people studying them don't have to be as
elaborate when the body is cleaner (although the Andromeda Strain
seems to belie that principle).

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

Date: Sun 18 Aug 85 01:04:50-EDT
From: Michael Eisenberg <DUCK%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: The Return of the Living Dead - a review

        THE RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD (film review)

Nanoreview: C'mon, Dead!

Microreview: Extremely good grotesque weird movie.

Review:

        This is a Living Dead movie for all of us -- or at least all
of us who can watch heads of corpses getting swatted off and
people's brains being bitten out and so forth. None of that
portentous self-important "you-think-this-is-a-cheap-horror-
movie-but-it's-really-life" stuff that George Romero dishes out.
This is Working Man's Dead at their most relentless.

        The movie, written and directed by Dan O'Bannon (I believe
he wrote "Alien" and one of the eerier segments of the cartoon
"Heavy Metal"), manages to walk the very fine line between gross-out
humor and genuine horror. I won't spoil it by giving away the whole
story; suffice it to say that what begins with a chemical accident
ends with a cemetary full of zombies springing to life and
terrorizing a medical-supplies house and a group of punks. Part of
what makes the movie so successful at being both funny and scary is
the surprisingly high quality of the acting: there is a minimum of
mugging for laughs, and some of the characters have an almost tragic
side to them. The young actors playing the punks are especially
believable, and in one scene even the zombies themselves
miraculously achieve a sort of poignancy.  The special effects,
while not remarkable, are effective enough, and there are images of
dead creatures running rampant which can really knock your socks off
through sheer cleverness, if not technical expertise.

        Anyway, I don't mean to make this sound like "The Bicycle
Thief" or anything, but it really is one of the better horror films
in recent memory. I give it a 7.5 out of 10.

Mike Eisenberg (DUCK@MIT-OZ)

------------------------------

From: mcgill-vision!mouse@topaz.arpa (der Mouse)
Subject: Antimatter girls
Date: 13 Aug 85 21:53:30 GMT

     Let's postulate an antimatter girl.  Question: How do we get
this girl into an environment where a matter boy can possibly kiss
her without liberating that 1.22E28 watts in the process (through
contact with air, floor, etc)?  Remember, it doesn't take a
duplicate of a molecule to explode this way.  Each particle will go
as soon as it touches its antiparticle -- and there are plenty of
anti-{electron, proton, neutron, etc}s making up our whole
environment.

     Quite a power source, yes.  As I recall, a few pounds of
antimatter was enough to run the USS Enterprise, which must draw
quite a lot of juice.
                                der Mouse
                                CVaRL, McGill University

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Antimatter girls.
Date: 18 Aug 85 01:06:53 GMT

>From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jeffrey Smith)
>
>To be perfectly truthfull, if an antimatter girl and a
>matter boy even touched (kissed, held hands) the explosion
>would liberate 1.22 * 10**28 watts of energy.

They say in the film MAN WHO WOULD BE KING that if a human girl
kissed a god she will go up in a puff of flame -- "T-zing!"  Clearly
this proves that what the Khafiris thought were ancient gods were
really anti-matter aliens.  Ancient Astronauts... ("they practically
owned South America!"-- Carpenter's THE THING)

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN)
Subject: Query on language evolution
Date: 17 Aug 85 02:06:17 GMT

For an SF story I'm working on, I would like to find references on
how the environment affects languages (e.g. how/why did the Eskimos
develop all those words for snow?) and how dialects and languages
form in isolated groups of people.  The story concerns some
colonists who have been out of contact with Earth for a few
centuries.

Please reply by mail to:
        {ihnp4, rest of AT&T}!mtuxn!newtech!rubin

------------------------------

From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson)
Subject: Poll: Which type of magic is your favorite?
Date: 18 Aug 85 03:01:42 GMT

I only got a limited response to my query poll regarding 'which type
of magic you prefer ?': The results tended to point in favor of all
types of magic, but leaning towards pure ability.  Namely the adept.

I'd like to get a broader spectrum of opinions so please drop me a
note with your selection- limit yourself.  Say, "If I had to pick
only one (1) type which would I choose?"

Send me the number you choose, and, your favorite selection dealing
with that type of magic.  Short stories should indicate which
collection or magazine they're from.

The choices are:

        1. Spells/Artifacts
                ex- Jack Vance
        2. Adept
                Jack of Shadows, Donaldson,
        3. objective
                Explain your idea of magic
        4. Summoning/Binding - limiting
                Master of the Five Magic
        5. SF
                The Runestaff
        6. Psionics
                Amber, Jhereg, Julian May
        7. All inclusive

        8. Other - specify

                Moshe Eliovson
                {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive.
Date: 17 Aug 85 14:34:42 GMT

> That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would
> undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology
> would be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of
> their advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be
> required.

I'd put up with that to get our hands on the technology. Whether we
get it from them or develop it ourselves we'd end up with the same
rearrangement of our society (ever hear of "future shock"? It's just
as real as "culture shock"), so why not do without the waiting
period? So what if we end up with a society like theirs? Chances are
we would have anyway. I want to visit Beta Lyrae and I'm not going
to hang around long enough for us to develop a stardrive.

> Does anyone know of any Sci-fi that deals with this issue? Most
> I've read runs along these lines;
>
> 1) The E.T. type- benevolent cuddly aliens 2) The Childhood's End
> type- powerful saviors 3) War of the Worlds type- violent
> encounters 4) The Janissaries- slavers

Well, in this case it's the humans coming from space, but how about
Tanith Lee's new book? Also, "High Yield Bondage" by someone I
misremember... and Niven's "Leshy circuit" stories.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 85 1124-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #333
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 333

Today's Topics:

           Books - Delany & Niven (2 msgs) & Bar Stories,
           Films - Andromeda Strain,
           Miscellanous - Ewoks & Critics & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Dahlgraney
Date: 18 Aug 85 15:34:50 EDT (Sun)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

I think you'll like Delany if you like to watch words be put
together in interesting ways.  This should not be surprising from an
author with numerous titles like ``Time considered as a helix of
semi-precious stones'' and ``Stars in my pocket like grains of
sand''.  Delany's books are the kind that you read to be reading,
where the act of reading itself is a pleasure, yet where nothing
much really happens, and you may not really like the people to whom
it's happening, anyway...

Dahlgren, Nova, and Triton all have this in common, as does ``Stars
in my pocket like grains of sand.''  Babel-17 is also well written,
but is rather conventional (it has a plot and hackneyed stuff like
that) (interesting, all the same, and I suspect it's most likely his
most approachable book).  I thought ``The Einstein Intersection''
read like the first novel it was (nonetheless, not a bad bit of
writing for a 17-year-old kid).

Not to be missed are Delany's short-story collections:
``Drift-glass'' is the name of one, I can't remember the title of
the other (``Empire Star'' perhaps?).  Most of his short-stories are
pretty conventional, with plot and interesting characters, and not
so much Bizarre Sex, yet they retain his wonderful prose.  Good
Reads in all senses of the words.  Try his stories before you give
up on him completely.

Another thing that Delany does very well is imagining new societies
and the way they work.  As far as I'm concerned, Triton only works
as a travelogue describing the politics of the Jovian moons
(coterminous governments which you select every four years.  Once
you've selected a government, your stuck with it until the next
election, but your neighbors aren't, necessarily, since your
neighbors can choose their own government, different from yours.)
The writing style is typical Delany sacher-torte prose, but the
character is pretty dull and whining, so despite the interesting
politics and the rich prose, I vote for Triton as my ``least likely
to be re-read'' of Delany's books.

Dahlgren describes New York City during a garbage strike, or maybe
Bellona is a city in Pynchon's Zone in Gravity's Rainbow (anyone who
stops reading Gravity's Rainbow before they get to Byron the
Immortal Light Bulb deserves what they're getting), or Tarkovsky's
Zone from Stalker, or even Troy after the gift horse has opened its
mouth.  Turning and turning in the widening gyre, the falcon cannot
hear the falconer; things fall apart, the center cannot hold: mere
anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Dahlgren is the notes of the set designer for Bladerunner.

Someone sparked all this by asking if anything ever happened in
Dahlgren.  Well, yes.  Lots of things happen.  About three or four
hundred things happen on every page.  Weren't you paying attention?
Just about every single word in Dahlgren is an event in itself.
Unfortunately, most of the words don't seem to be describing
anything.  I'm glad you brought it up, though, because since then
lots of people have mentioned what they saw in the book, and now I'm
eager to re-read it with these new ideas.

Why do you care that Dahlgren never explains where it's going when
the mere act of getting there has more in it than you can possibly
absorb?

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors
Date: 17 Aug 85 14:40:54 GMT

> In my copy of PROTECTOR it is stated that the Pak are mostly dumb
> browsers and couldn't be dangerous to ANYONE. . . hence the Pak
> Protector, who WAS.  The Protectors on Home originally fought to
> protect ``their'' Pak (each Pak

The protecters on "Pak", you mean. The protectors on "Home" were
human protectors.

> ``clan'' had its own Protector(s)); but the Pak on Home (the ONLY
> Pak, short of the attempted colonization of some world way out in
> the spiral arms. . .)  were dead.

Not in protector.

> Or did I totally mis-read the first part of PROTECTOR?

Probably you misread the whole of protector. The only breeders that
died in the first part were Phsstpok's own clan. The rest were alive
& well.

Actually we know what happened to Pak and to Truesdale's fleet! They
were caught in the Core explosion. Remember they only had slow
sublight ramjets, so by the time they was the light (har) it was too
late. Of course this conflicts with Down in Flames, but in that case
tha Tnuctipun ate them.

Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 85 11:15:32 PDT (Monday)
From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Fate of the Protectors of Home

     As I remember the story, (and this may be faulty) the Home
Protectors were going off to fight the Pak, at the speed of light.
At that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster
than the speed of light yet.  So the Home Protectors spent two
hundred years traveling to fight the Pak, hopefully beat the Pak,
and then another two hundred years to come back.  This would explain
the lack of interaction between the Home Protectors and the human
race.
     Maybe the next story will be about how thousands of Home
Protectors deal with the human race?

     Henry III

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt)
Subject: Bar Stories Primaevil
Date: 14 Aug 85 01:56:00 GMT

Sometimes I have to have restrain myself when reading net.sf-lovers.
For example, with Bar/Club stories, Spider Robinson, De Pratt, and
many others have been mentioned.  What about that Great Master Of
SF, Isaac Asimov???  Doesn't anyone remember the Black
Widower's!!!!!!!!
                                        orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

From: nrcvax!terry@topaz.arpa (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question
Date: 15 Aug 85 19:34:44 GMT

judith@proper.UUCP (judith) says:
>I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began
>to wonder about this recently.  As the scientists who are to
>investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab
>complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected,
>weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean
>when they get to the lowest level.
>
>What for?
>
>They never interact with anything important except through waldos
>and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the
>difference?

Not only that, but I have it on good authority (various doctors and
nurses) that if they went through all that high level disinfecting
they would have been very dead.  Especially the part where they burn
off the top layer of skin.  That much burning over the entire body
would probably kill anything.
                                                   Terry Grevstad
                                     Network Research Corporation
                     {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry
                                        ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry

------------------------------

From: crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA@topaz.arpa
Subject: Ewoks and victory
Date: 19 Aug 85 08:12:10 GMT

_Bob <Carter@RUTGERS.ARPA> writes:
>One thing that bothered me about the Ewok victory: Guerrillas
>(never) finally defeat regulars without the assistance of an allied
>regular force.

     Aside from English and French colonial history being full of
examples to the contrary, remember that the Ewoks were not fighting
alone.  There was a squad of Rebel troops and a Wookie in a
Scoutwalker.

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me
Date: 18 Aug 85 01:02:42 GMT

I promised myself long ago that I'd simply ignore Davis and his
holier than thou anti-SF attitudes (Davis, if you hate SF half as
much as the stuff you write implies, why do you bother reading this
newsgroup? Are you trying to convert us with this highbrow
proselytizing, or are you simply masochistic? Hmm... On second
thought, considering the volumes you pour out at us, maybe you're
sadistic.... :-|). Unfortunately, Davis has made some comments that
just cry out to be beaten into the pulp they ought to have been
written on...

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>>I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you
>>whether it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read".
>Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust)
>knows absolutely nothing, or next to nothing, about being a
>reviewer, as he has so amply demonstrated in his review columns,
>and even less about being a critic. Gene Shalit gives more depth;
>Rona Barret gives more detail;

These is fighting words. Choice of weapons: copies of "battleship
earth" at 20 paces... I was reading Spider's reviews religiously
back in the late, lamented Galaxy magazine, and he knows the genre
quite thoroughly. He knows what is good writing, and he burns the
bad writing (a VERY fitting end for most of those books) and he has
a good grasp for what his audience is looking for. I think his
columns got a little soft when he was working in Analog, but even he
admitted that he simply didn't have the time to do it right (and
finally stopped the columns because of it).

You seem to make the continuing misassumption that a "CRITIC"
(underlined three times) is there to tell me what I "ought" to be
reading. Well, I don't have a helluva lot of time to read what I
"ought" to be reading. I look for a reviewer that can tell me what
to avoid and what I'm going to want to read, since I simply don't
have time to wade through the trash to find what I'm looking for. I
simply don't always WANT to read the sort of stuff I "ought" to be
reading, since reading for me is a relaxation tool. Education or
enlightenment are the only reasons to open a book, no matter how
much you might wish otherwise.

>To you and Spider Robinson (author of such art as "Harry Callahan's
>Crossroad Five-Guys-In-A-Bar-Trade-Stupid-Puns-And-Act-Superior-And-
>Incredibly-Sophomoric"), it is an insult.

Ah, the crux of the problem. You have no sense of humor... Not
everybody can be a Kafka, Davis. Fortunately, or the suicide rate
would be MUCH higher than it is now.

>Art and a "good read" may have no- thing to do with each other, but
>I and many, many others will disagree violently at such a
>purposefully ignorant attitude. These hedonistic tendencies will
>leave you with little fulfillment, less enlightenment, and no
>under- standing of the world outside D&D games and national news
>programs. To ignore art because it gives no pleasure is synonomous
>with ignoring edu- cation because it gives no money. A backward,
>Luddite, barbarian attitude which makes me wonder how anyone who
>ever held this belief ever got the drive and motivation to learn
>how to read.

Oh, wombat do! The world simply isn't black and white, and I wish
you'd take a look at reality. I can name a lot of highly
entertaining ART books: Kafka, Cervantes, Dante all come to mind
immediately. But I don't always want art. When I've been under a
false floor tracking ethernet cable for 12 hours, picking up a
Dickens or a Dostoyevsky would send me jumping off a local building
roof. Sometimes, believe it or not, people like to let their hair
down.

>This is not idle electronic banter, and it is not specifically
>directed at you, or at Mr. Robinson. But to champion a "good read"
>over "great art" is very, very egocentric.

Oh, yes it is. And trying to enforce your own limited beliefs on the
net is rather egocentric as well... If you HATE our little ghetto so
much, go play with net.books for a while and let us wallow in our
own pleasure. please!

>I have never made any statements to the effect that something is
>good because I enjoy it.

Then I feel sorry for you. I have read many a book that I would say
to anyone is "good" because I enjoyed it. They may not be the
strongest writing or great "literature" but they are enjoyable. If
you can't enjoy what you are doing, why do you bother doing it?

>I have appreciated many works which I did not necessarily enjoy or
>find a "good read". Enrichment of the heart and enlightenment of
>the mind do not come to the lazy or the proudly ignorant.

You're being snotty, now. "I'm better than you are because I've
walked through books that I didn't like, because they were good for
me". I've done that, too, but sometimes my brain turns to mush and I
simply can't cope with a good Russian Novel. Or even a bad one. Or
Gene Wolfe, for that matter...

>There are so many closed minds in this world,

Now thats an understatement... Did I hear a glass house shudder?

>hold Spider Robinson up as a genius and a great writer and a great
>commentator on the human condition.

I do, actually... Well, maybe not a great writer, but a damned good
one.  The worst of his essays and stories has more humanism and
intelligence than the best of the Drivel I've seen come out of
Davis' keyboard...

Look. If you don't like the stuff, don't read it. And please, quit
bleating at us to stop reading it as well. I happen to LIKE SF, just
as I like "literature". Before you cut off Spider Robinson as a
cheap hack, I suggest you go find a story of his called "The Time
Traveller" and read it. Very.  Carefully. More than once. I also
suggest you look at some of the more serious works that have come
out of SF: Most of Kurt Vonnegut; all Harlan Ellison; Gene Wolfe's
New Sun stuff; Kate Wilhelm's "Where Once the Sweet Birds Sang"; Ray
Bradbury; SilverBob's "Dying Inside"; Sturgeon's "Baby is Three." It
is rather obvious that you write each of your essays from a
predetermined point of view, and you seem to do only enough research
(if that) to prove your own points. They are biased, not based in
facts, and not really well written at that. I suggest you know what
you're talking about before you start blathering in the future.
There is a LOT of good stuff (whether or not you call it ART) in SF,
and there are a lot of people that enjoy the SF as ART stuff. There
are also a lot of good but not terribly enlightening books, but they
serve a good purpose, too -- enjoyment. You don't seem to understand
that word, though, and I pity you for that...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some drivel to drool over...

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: hpfcla!ajs@topaz.arpa (ajs)
Subject: Re: Who's out there...
Date: 15 Aug 85 02:01:00 GMT

> I believe that there are other forms of life out there...  Maybe
> they're not even based on any form of matter, but purely in the
> form of energy.  (What's the difference anyway; matter is energy,
> right?)

Maybe, or maybe not.

As Richard Dawkins put it so well in "The Selfish Gene":

"The universe is populated by stable things."

        and

"All life evolves by the differential survival of replicating
entities."

To go any farther than wild fantasizing about alternate life-forms,
you must postulate a physical system which meets these criteria.
The system must be stable ("genes are the true immortals"), support
replication, and select more viable arrangements or mutations over
less suitable forms.

Dawkins went looking for familiar, but non-gene-based, living
systems.  He found one.  It is our social and cultural collection of
ideas and concepts, the unit of which he calls a "meme".  Memes live
in our brains, in fact, parasitize them.  They survive, replicate,
mutate, and are differentially selected.

You have just been parasitized by the only self-referent meme.

Alan Silverstein,
Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Systems Division, Colorado
{ihnp4 | hplabs}!hpfcla!ajs, 303-226-3800 x3053,
N 40 31'31" W 105 00'43"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Aug 85 1138-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #334
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 334

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Delany & Kurtz & McCollum,
                 Films - Silent Running & Andromeda Strain,
                 Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sommers@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mamaliz @ The Soup Kitchen)
Subject: Delaney
Date: 19 Aug 85 06:33:52 GMT

dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA writes:
>I think you'll like Delany if you like to watch words be put
>together in interesting ways.  Delany's books are the kind that
>you read to be reading, where the act of reading itself is a
>pleasure, yet where nothing much really happens, and you may not
>really like the people to whom it's happening, anyway...

At last.  As I think I have mentioned before that Chip Delany is my
favorite science fiction author (if you leave out that Neveryon
trash).  Dhalgren is the book I have read the most times in my life,
it never fails to fascinate me.  I find that much happens, but it
happens at the pace of life, how much really happens to you in one
week?

>Dahlgren, Nova, and Triton all have this in common, as does ``Stars
>in my pocket like grains of sand.''  Babel-17 is also well written,
>but is rather conventional (it has a plot and hackneyed stuff like
>that) (interesting, all the same, and I suspect it's most likely
>his most approachable book).  I thought ``The Einstein
>Intersection'' read like the first novel it was (nonetheless, not a
>bad bit of writing for a 17-year-old kid).

Nova is excellent, a retelling of the Grail.  Triton's major
redeeming quality is that the author could sit and write a book and
finish it about such a selfish a*hole.  Babel-17 is just a story.
The Ballad of Beta-2 (which at least one time was in a double with
Empire Star) is one of the more interesting views of a generation
ship (and owes much to Heinlein I think) No odd sex in either of
those two novellas(ettes).

I enjoyed Empire Star and Einstein quite a lot, seeing the seeds of
Dhalgren in them.

His first novels are also interesting, one is a trilogy whose name
escapes me (has something to do with Towers -- my books are all
packed AGAIN) and the other is a sort of fantastic adventure, with
leanings toward Tanith Lee.  I have not read it in years.

>Not to be missed are Delany's short-story collections:
>``Drift-glass'' is the name of one, I can't remember the title of
>the other (``Empire Star'' perhaps?).  Most of his short-stories
>are pretty conventional, with plot and interesting characters, and
>not so much Bizarre Sex, yet they retain his wonderful prose.  Good
>Reads in all senses of the words.  Try his stories before you give
>up on him completely.

Especially try Driftglass.  I have never seen anybody put it down
once they picked it up.

>Someone sparked all this by asking if anything ever happened in
>Dahlgren.  Well, yes.  Lots of things happen.  About three or four
>hundred things happen on every page.  Weren't you paying attention?
>Just about every single word in Dahlgren is an event in itself.
>Unfortunately, most of the words don't seem to be describing
>anything.  I'm glad you brought it up, though, because since then
>lots of people have mentioned what they saw in the book, and now
>I'm eager to re-read it with these new ideas.
>
>Why do you care that Dahlgren never explains where it's going when
>the mere act of getting there has more in it than you can possibly
>absorb?

And aren't you smart and imaginative enough to get there yourself?
It goes, my god it goes.

liz sommers
My "best address" will soon be changing to
topaz!mama!liz
but I can still be reached at:
uucp:   ...{seismo, ut-sally,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!sommers
arpa:   sommers@rutgers

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 85 12:00:46 PDT
From: Pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie"

Charley Wingate writes:
> I happen to own _Language of the Night_ by LeGuin, ...  First, we
> have "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she takes apart (as
> it happens) K. Kurtz (who seems to have learned from the article).

I had the good fortune to talk to Katherine Kurtz about this very
article at Westercon in Sacramento last month.  I was interested in
whether or not she had been affected by the article and, in
particular, whether it was responsible for what I perceived as a
long gap between books (i.e., had the article soured Katherine on
writing in any way).

She made some interesting comments on the subject.  First, she
assured me that she had in no way been discouraged by the article;
the gaps between her books all stem from the fact that she's just a
relatively slow writer.  Another comment was that while she wouldn't
go so far as to claim that LeGuin had been wrong to write the piece
as she did, Katherine would never have published something so bald
about another's work without at least sending a copy to the subject.
Katherine claims she never even heard about the piece until she
stumbled across it much later (I think when reading ``Language of
the Night'').  I think I agree with her on this point.

As a final point, she agreed with me (unsurprisingly, I suppose)
that LeGuin's claims in the article were just plain wrong.  (The
article takes a couple of paragraphs out of ``Deryni Rising'' and,
by changing the proper names into modern ones, transforms the
writing into a 20th-century political novel.  LeGuin makes that
statement that in true fantasy writing she shouldn't be able to do
that.)  Katherine is not trying to write ``high fantasy'' in the
tradition of Lord Dunsany and Tolkien.  She is writing what she
calls ``historical fantasy''; she is trying for a greater sense of
realism and identifiability in her characters.  Their style of
speaking is always appropriate to the situation: ``forsoothly
speech'' is not for every-moment use.  I believe that LeGuin takes
far too narrow a view in her criticism of Ms. Kurtz.

To sum up the reason I wrote this in response to the excerpt above,
not only do I not think Katherine has ``learned from the article''
anything about writing, but I believe that the article really had
nothing to teach her in the first place.

        Pavel Curtis

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes
Date: 15 Aug 85 16:30:20 GMT

[this is not a spoiler]

I just read _Life_Probe_, the predecesser to _Procyon's_Promise_.
It is quite clear there, when McCollum first introduces the
anti-matter black holes, that he knows there is no difference
between matter and anti-matter black holes by current theory.  He is
assuming that that theory is wrong, and that anti-matter black holes
have a longer lifespan.  This is much the same sort of thing every
science fiction writer does.

Now, I think he would have been better to have been more vague about
what his I-masses were (or consult a physicist to get a more
plausible explanation).  Firstly, the kind of difference between
matter and anti- matter black holes he proposes is just not very
likely.  Second, the time, shortly after the big bang, when quantum
black holes might have formed is well before the separation of the
primal ylem into matter and anti-matter.

Oh, well, at least he tried.

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!barmar@topaz.arpa (Barry Margolin)
Subject: Silent Running music
Date: 19 Aug 85 04:52:01 GMT

I was just watching the closing credits of "Silent Running" on TV,
and I thought I noticed the name of Peter Schikele, the infamous PDQ
Bach scholar, in the credits for the music.  It was small print (the
credit for Joan Baez, which immediately preceded it, was noticeably
larger) and it went quickly, so I'm not sure about this.  Some of
you out there probably have this on tape, so could you verify this
for me?

Mail responses to me (preferably at the UUCP address), and I'll
summarize.

Barry Margolin
ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics
UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 20 AUG 1985 00:59:00 GMT+2:00
From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer)
Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain Question (Issue 325)

>From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms)
>I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began
>to wonder about this recently.  As the scientists who are to
>investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab
>complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected,
>weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean
>when they get to the lowest level.  They never interact with
>anything important except through waldos and other interfaces built
>to eliminate contact, so what's the difference?

As far as I remember (from reading the book) it was to prevent
possible interaction between Earth's bacteria and the "Thing from
outside", should the scientists accidentially get in contact with
the virus from space.

They were always afraid that something even worse than the strange
virus could develop.

Ralf (#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA)
(Beware of the number sign (#) - it's part of my User-ID)

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 19 Aug 1985 08:14:28-PDT
From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN
From: 381-2102)
Subject: Critics

Bill Ingogly writes:
>Fact: Gerald Jonas writes a column in the NYTBR every other week.
>He hardly trashes every SF book he reviews. Another fact: I believe
>   [some text omitted]
>                              I see some of the hostility toward
>'critics' in this newsgroup arising from the perception of SF as a
>popular genre, and a certain resentment that the 'eggheads' are
>seen as either (1) choosing to ignore SF or (2) choosing to say bad
>things about SF as a matter of course.

Sorry, I never said that NYTBR trashes only SF, I said they trash
anything which I seem to like.  I also never said that 'eggheads'
are ignoring or saying bad things about SF.  My points about critics
were (and are) completely general, not limited to SF, literature,
Broadway, or any other field.  The feeling seems to be common to
critics in every field.  I agree that some critics (at least of
NYTBR and a few other places) do not apply different standards to
SF, but I disagree with their standards when they review anything.

>You're welcome to your opinions, but don't assume you've found some
>great 'truth' or that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't
>belong in this newsgroup (there have been replies to some of my
>postings, for example, that questioned my 'right' to post in this
>newsgroup because of my 'incorrect thinking').

But my whole point is that there is no such thing as "great
'truth'".  I don't assume I found it, I deny that it even exists!  I
welcome other opinions because I enjoy these discussions.  As
someone or other said a while ago, (possibly paraphrased) "I
completely disagree with everything you said, but I will defend to
the death your right to say it".

Brad Templeton writes:
>I suspect that the use of "art" as a pejorative stems from the fact
>that quite often material is passed off as art when it is quite
>simply *BAD*.
>
>What Spider Robinson (an author whom I dislike, btw) may be trying
>to say is that truly superb art involves excellent communication
>skills as well.  You may have something valid to say about emotions
>or the human condition, and you may be able to convey it to a few
>who think as you do, but an artist of great skill conveys it to
>all.

Thank you for saying what I meant, better than I said it.  Critics
(and most self-proclaimed artists who do not have the skills to back
up their pretensions) seem to feel that "It is great art because I
*SAY* it is great art, and if you don't understand it and agree with
me, you are an uncultured barbarian" (see Mr. Tuckers comments,
below).

Davis Tucker writes:
>In most places in the world, to say that something is "great art"
>is a compliment. To you and Spider Robinson (author of such art as
>"Harry Callahan's Crossroad Five-Guys-In-A-Bar-Trade-Stupid-Puns-
>And-Act-Superior-And- Incredibly-Sophomoric"), it is an insult.

*WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG*.  I said that art and a good
read are orthoganal, and that I preferred one of them over the
other.  I *NEVER* said that one is superior to the other, because
(see above) I deny that the concept of "great truth", or "absolute
standards" by which to measure superior, even exists.  I also never
said that I do not like great art, but (as Brad Templeton points
out) most of the stuff touted as *ART* is not art, it is bad.  I
like and appreciate art.  But I won't depend on some pompous critic
(or even you, Mr. Tucker) to tell me that some piece of sh** is art
simply because I don't immediately like or understand it.  If it is
art (and to me that is a very select, very praiseworthy term), then
it will be immediately obvious to everyone. If it is not, then it
fails the test, and no critic can sneer at my taste enough to make
me admit it is art.

>But to champion a "good read" over "great art" is very, very
>egocentric. It also belies an inferiority complex about one's
>ability to appreciate art and uphold one's personal standards as
>opposed to lying down and accepting the tyranny of entertainment.
>Many definitions of great art encompass being a "good read", but
>this quality is but a portion of what it takes to write a great
>novel.

It seems to me that if I am "accepting the tyranny of
entertainment", you are accepting the tyranny of critics.  And I
agree that being a good read is but a portion of what it takes be a
great novel.  But most of what critics have touted to be *GREAT
NOVELS* have not had that portion, have not been a good read in
addition to whatever else you may require to judge something great.

I seems to me that you are attacking the very action you are trying
to defend.  I am confident in my "ability to appreciate art and
uphold one's personal standards". But when I defend that standard,
you accuse me of being egocentric.

>Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust)
>   [some text omitted] purposefully ignorant attitude.  These
>hedonistic tendencies will leave you with little fulfillment, less
>enlightenment, and no understanding of the world outside D&D games
>and national news programs.
>   [some text omitted]
>          ...  A backward, Luddite, barbarian attitude ...
>   [some text omitted]
>                             Spider Robinson's championing of ease
>of reading over depth of feeling is simple laziness.
>   [some text omitted]
>          ...        semi-mindless entertainment      ...
>   [some text omitted]
>          ...        the lazy or the proudly ignorant. ...
>   [some text omitted]
>"I am ignorant, I am proud of it, and I shall remain blissfully so".

Isn't it nice that we are keeping this discussion on an high-level
and serious track, without resorting to insult and personal attacks?

                                                        Ken Moreau

------------------------------

Cc: druri!dht@topaz.arpa
Subject: Tucker Review
Date: 19 Aug 85 13:27:05 PDT (Mon)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

Mr. Tucker,
        Apparently you've not read much of Mr. Robinson's work.  I
will not argue with your viewpoint; my purpose in life is not to
sway others to think the way I think.  But, damn, you sure pick a
nasty way to describe a writer who places the use of 'heart and
emotions', as you aproximately put it, above most of the other
aspects in his work.
        Robinson does not write 'five-guys-in-a-bar-telling-bad-
puns' stories.  Ever read Stardance ?  Most folks liked it well
enough to give it a Hugo.  And a Nebula.  And a couple of other
things.  Have you ever met the man ?  No, you have not, or you would
not be confusing his WRITING with his self.  There was a long
discussion on this bboard quite recently on this very problem.
        So please, stop flaming needlessly.  Clear thinking is
always welcome here; the 'barbarianism', as you put it, is not.

                                David Godwin
                                UC Irvine

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Aug 85 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #335
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Aug 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 335

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Bear & Delany & Harrison &
                         Niven (2 msgs),
                 Films - Star Wars,
                 Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & 
                         Time Tides

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Aug 85 01:15:17-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: EON, by Greg Bear (reveiw)

    One of the little advantages of living in New York is The
Science Fiction Shop, run by Baird Searles, who reveiws books for
IASFM. When he finishes a reveiw he hangs a copy in the store, where
fen can read it 5-6 months before it appears in print.  On the basis
of this, I bought:
                                EON
                            by Greg Bear
                  Books, 0-312-94144-7, August 85'

Micro-review (non-spoiler):

        Excellent hard-SF novel, truly evokes the Sense of Wonder so
beloved by us fen.  A strong contender for the Hugo in Atlanta next
year.  BUY THIS BOOK!

Review: (**** QUASI-SPOILER ****, but little more than on the fly
leaf).

     In the very near future a large, modified asteroid enters the
Solar System from deep space, and inserts itself into orbit around
the Earth. It appears dead and makes no attempt to communicate.  At
this time the US is pre-eminent in space, and international research
teams sent to investigate 'The Stone' are under tight (US) security.
The Stone turns out to have seven hollow chambers hewn out of the
rock, with spin giving them gravity (ala Rendevous with Rama). The
first six are deserted, some containing cities.  There are some very
troubling findings:

               **** MEDIUM SCALE SPOILERS FOLLOW ****

     (1) The Stone was definitely built and inhabited by humans, and
appears to be over a thousand years old.  (2) The libraries in the
cities contain books in English, some with printing dates hundreds
of years in the future. (3) A history book in the library describes
current events almost, but not quite, accurately, and indicates that
a full scale, nuke-'em-till-they-glow nuclear war is due in a few
weeks.

     As you can imagine, this is all rather unsettling. The final
mystery concerns the fate of the builders. The seventh chamber does
not have an end: it appears to go on forever. Like the Tardis, The
Stone is bigger on the inside than on the outside.  The builders of
The Stone apparently packed their bags and trekked off down the
seventh chamber into the far distance.

     The central character is Patricia Vasquez, a theoretical
mathematician summoned up to The Stone to figure out (1) how the
seventh chamber ticks, and (2) if the future history described in
the library is avoidable.

     This is the opening scenario.  The tension builds as the time
moves towards the predicted Armaggedon and contact is finally made
with the builders.  More I cannot tell you without major spoilers.

                       **** END OF SPOILER ****

     This one is a real page turner, I was constantly wondering what
would happen next. There are enough new ideas and plot potential
here for three books (there is the potential for sequels, but this
does not detract from the present volume).

Overall rating:  +5 on the -6 to +6 scale. I LIKED THIS BOOK!

                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b

------------------------------

From: nte-scg!phil@topaz.arpa (Phil Trubey)
Subject: Re: DeSamual Delany
Date: 13 Aug 85 14:31:43 GMT

>> Don't ask me why.  Either Delany dislikes his hands, he knows
>> someone with disfigured hands, or it's some literary allusion I
>> don't understand.
>
> Here's my frivolous literary theory of the week A deformity of the
> hands could symbolize powerlessness -- an inability to "handle"
> the world or some part of it.  That fits with Nova, at least.

Actually that would also fit with _Triton_ ... although I can't
really remember if the protaganist's hands in the story were
disfigured.

While on the subject of hands, in both _The_Einstein_Intersection_
and _Triton_, a current dress fashion is to have your hands incased
in tiny cages.
                         Phil Trubey
                         Northern Telecom Electronics Ltd.
                         Ottawa, Ontario
Mail path: ...!bnr-vpa!nte-scg!phil

------------------------------

From: mmintl!tedi@topaz.arpa (Ted Ives)
Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry
Subject: Harrison
Date: 15 Aug 85 18:10:07 GMT

I read somewhere that Harrison is coming out with a new STAINLESS
STEEL RAT book sometime this fall.  I'm not sure, but I think the
article said something to the effect that it is about the ORIGIN of
Slippery Jim.
                                        -Ted Ives
                                        pwa-b!mmintl
                                        or tedi@mmintl.UUCP

------------------------------

Subject: Protectors
Date: 19 Aug 85 18:40:56 PDT (Mon)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        OK, boys and girls, here's the current synopsis ( after I
ran off and re-read Protector and the pertenant sections of
Ringworld Engineers. ).

1.  Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would live
    in a free atmosphere.  This is how Roy Treusdale got turned into
    a Protector.

2.  The virus got all over the Home colony.  The entire elligible
    population changed into Protectors.  The rest died.  Home was
    then used as a staging area to fight the incoming Pak.  First,
    the Home boys ( sorry ) built fake cities and stuff all over the
    planet to sucker in the Pak scout ships.  The scouts were
    destroyed, and the Home team ( real sorry ) left this part of
    space to fight of the main Pak fleet.  No more word is ever
    heard from Truesdale or his followers.

3.  Treusdale's pregnant wife, who knows all about Brennan and the
    incoming Pak colony fleet supposedly makes it back to the Belt,
    and the Human governments at least should know what she knows.

4.  Lots and lots of centuries later, we have Louis Wu.  In
    'Engineers', he reminices that he's lived on lot's of worlds.
    Lots of years spent on Earth, and enough years on various colony
    world to make him feel like a native.  On of these he mentions
    is Home.  So apparently Home is resettled.

So, questions that I don't see clear answers to:

1.  How were the Home Protectors able to clean up the atmosphere of
    Home ?  And did they also remove all trace of their presence
    (fake cities, etc ) from same ?  I guess they had to have, but
    this is a bit heavy on my suspension of disbelief.

2.  The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors.  If they
    hadn't, humans would know.  So what happened to the winners ?
    Did everybody die ?  They aren't in known space or on the
    Ringworld.  Somebody ( Outsiders, Grog telepaths, Teela Brown )
    would notice something after all those years.  Where are they
    hiding ( and what are they doing ? ) ?  Maybe they did all die.
    None of them but Truesdale had descendants left anywhere at all,
    so after the Pak were destroyed, there would have been no reason
    to live on.  Poor guys.  It's too bad they never stuck around
    for the Man-Kzin wars.  There would only have been one war.  And
    no more Kzinti.

3.  Small detail question.  The stl Ramships found on the starport
    docks on the Ringworld were built from modified Ringworld
    attitude jets, right ?  Built by Ringworld natives ( City
    Builders ? ), millenia after all the Ringworld Pak died off.  So
    whose Pak style vacsuit did Loius and Chmeee find on that one
    intact starship ?  Vacsuits are form fitting.  Teela Brown's ?

        Also, wasn't 'Down In Flames' a satire by Niven on Niven ?
I can't see Bea Sheaffer as a Protector.  Protectors shouldn't
oughta be 7 + feet tall.  ( Imagine a basketball team of We Made It
descended Protectors. )
        So lets clutter up the net with more Niven talk.  What other
holes in continuity do you folks see ?

                        Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985 14:42:06-PDT
From: insinga%elsie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Aron K. Insinga)
Subject: PROTECTOR

I think that Brandon Allbery is confusing "the Pak home planet" with
"the Earth colony named 'Home' (which is wiped out by a plague)".
Remember that Brennan, Truesdale, and other humans are much more
advanced than the Pak breeders are and have learned to work together
in groups already.  The first protectors on Home spent a lot of time
(for protectors! 6 days for Truesdale; hours for all 26 of them)
discussing the situation and only finally decided that they'd need
many more protectors than that to fight off the fleet and save
humanity at large.  Truesdale would be the only protector on Home
who had descendents in Sol's system, but Sol's system had at least
80% (as I remember) of the humans in the universe and they must have
decided to make the sacrifice, since Brennan had already led the Pak
scouts in their direction.  The book did briefly deal with how the
protectors dealt with those who tried to keep their families from
getting the virus, but why more didn't is explained by only the
preceeding (weak?)  argument.  Anyway, for various reasons, it is
one of my favorite books.  (No flames, please!  I just liked the
various explanations in the book explaining why the
alternate-anthropology made sense.  Or maybe I liked the idea of
having protectors look out for me and in turn doing the same
someday.  I guess becoming a father has something to do with that...
I can identify with protectors a lot better now!)

Re: Protectors and 'other' aliens: I don't think that they would
really have let any other species survive (remember the Martians?)
if at all possible.  Maybe the war just kept going on, and the
protectors are still leading the Pak further from Earth even during
Ringworld's time.
                                        - Aron Insinga

------------------------------

From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar)
Subject: Re: Decline and fall of the StarWars Empire
Date: 19 Aug 85 14:49:54 GMT

>>The sad decline of the capabilities of the empire stormtroopers
>>must surely be due to the same ecological disaster that lead to
>>the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, namely lead plumbing
>>(only here it was not only the leaders, but also the troops).
>
>Surely it is more likely that the plastic armour gives off a low
>level of solvent causing brain damage

I was more of the opinion that the plastic armour did nothing to
protect them and that they tended to do more damage to the
surrounding environment than they did to the people (things,
animals, etc) attacking them.

On this silly subject, what did the armour in Star Wars ever do? All
I can recall is that it provided comm facilities, blast protection
for the eyes, and looked funky. Did any armour *ever* turn a shot?
What's the point of wearing the stuff? Oh yea, it may have also
served as a vacuum suit. (wirrrrrrrrrrrrr, as it cleans the hallways
of the Death Star....)

David C. Kovar
USNET:  {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber
ARPA:   davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET:  davidk%amber@dartmouth

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 85 18:06:29 EDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Davis Tuckers work of art
From: Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA

So there I was, just about ready to contribute my splash of gasoline
to the debate on criticism in Science Fiction, when I read Davis
Tuckers' soliloquy.  I stand in awe.  It just took my breath away,
knocked me down, kicked me in the head.  I had to stand back away
from the fierce brightness of it's image on my CRT, those perfect
words burned phosphor bright in my eyeballs.  It was art, my
friends, purest art.  That piece of literature is the peaking
example of the writers effort.  Here is a man, a lone man, who has
taken a simple sentence, a mere statement, and fleshed it out into a
page and a half of unstoppable brilliance.  The original paltry
sentence?  A measly thing, a trifle: "Ken Moreau, I think you are a
jerk."  A mere stick of a sentence, something anyone could have
said.  But not content with that, Tucker set out to berobe it with
splendorous allusions and illusions alike.  He gifts us with
six-hundred eighty-six words strung together like diamonds twined
with blue-hot fires.  Giving life to his statement, rising above the
stark simplicity to create a thing of beauty.  That, in the opinion
of some of the most outspoken experts across the globe, is art at
its pinacle.

-Jim

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie"
Date: 20 Aug 85 02:29:22 GMT

Pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA writes:
> I happen to own _Language of the Night_ by LeGuin, ...  First, we
> have "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she takes apart (as
> it happens) K. Kurtz (who seems to have learned from the article).
>
> I had the good fortune to talk to Katherine Kurtz about this very
> article at Westercon in Sacramento last month.  I was interested
> in whether or not she had been affected by the article.
>
>... she agreed with me (unsurprisingly, I suppose) that LeGuin's
>claims in the article were just plain wrong.  (The article takes a
>couple of paragraphs out of ``Deryni Rising'' and, by changing the
>proper names into modern ones, transforms the writing into a
>20th-century political novel.  LeGuin makes that statement that in
>true fantasy writing she shouldn't be able to do that.)  Katherine
>is not trying to write ``high fantasy'' in the tradition of Lord
>Dunsany and Tolkien.  She is writing what she calls ``historical
>fantasy''; she is trying for a greater sense of realism and
>identifiability in her characters.  Their style of speaking is
>always appropriate to the situation: ``forsoothly speech'' is not
>for every-moment use.  I believe that LeGuin takes far too narrow a
>view in her criticism of Ms. Kurtz.

Unfortunately, I had not read the article before last Darkovercon,
so I'll have to wait until November to ask her myself.  Obviously,
my speculation about her improvement in style (and I do think she
has improved) was wrong.  On the other hand, I think Ms. Kurtz's
characterization of her work as 'historical fantasy" begs a few
questions.

Leguin's complaint essentially boils down to the observation that in
much of what is today called fantasy, the characters are essentially
modern men dressed up, often with a little forsoothly language
thrown on top for verissimilitude.  It isn't just that Morgan and
Nigel don't speak funny; their whole attitude is modern.  Morgan in
the latest book, while he still doth not forsoothly speak, is much
more a man of his time.

In most respects, I think it is fair to characterize the earlier
Kelson series as political adventure novels in medeival dress.
Whether or not you want to call them fantasy is a matter of taste;
LeGuin would rather not.  As the Camber books progress, however, the
characters begin to acquire that larger-than-life quality that I
think LeGuin is seeking.

I guess I disagree with LeGuin as far as she chooses to use the word
"fantasy".  Nevertheless, I think attention should be paid to her
argument.  There are too many second- and third-rate books
attempting to ride on the coattails of the likes of Tolkien and
Dunsany.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 21:27:56 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: "Time tides"

  Time DOES pass at a different rate at different elevations.  This
effect is too small to notice on earth except with fantastically
accurate clocks.  It is a function of experienced G forces, not of
tidal forces (which are the first space derivative of G forces).
  No person could possibly survive anywhere where the G forces were
great enough to make this effect easily noticable.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Aug 85 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #336
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Aug 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 336

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Asimov & Niven & Yates,
                  Television - Nelvana Studios,
                  Miscellaneous - Aliens (2 msgs) & 
                          Critics (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Asimov and scientific revenge (from BTTF time travel
Subject: discussion)
Date: 18 Aug 85 20:03:32 GMT

The article I am referencing has a title request, and a request for
an inconsistancy resolution.  I don't remember the title, but I can
help with the inconsistancy.  To condense the original:

> From: Jim Petrick (petrick@lll-crg.ARPA)
> This discussion reminds me of an Isaac Asimov story about two
> scientists; [...] The quick one invents a device for nullifying
> gravity, [...] places the device on the center of a pool table
> over a hole cut in the surface.  [...] the quick guy invites the
> slow guy to demonstrate [the] great invention he has by shooting a
> pool ball [...] through the null-gravity field [...] The slow guy
> thinks a bit, then makes a bank shot so the ball is headed
> directly at the fast guy as it enters the field.  [...] the quick
> guy has a hole punched through him by the ball [which] stayed put
> while the rest of the world whooshed by
>
> Two questions:  Does anyone remember the title of this story?

I beleive it had to do with the plot, and was something like "Fools
rush in...", but I wouldn't bet the mortgage.

> How could the slow guy predict which way the ball accelerated?

He didn't have to.  You've mis-remembered the reason that the ball
zapped the quick guy [the experimentalist], and the reasoning that
the slow guy [the theoretician] used to predict this behavior.

**** SPOILER WARNING (for those who want to read it for themselves)
****

The story was told from the viewpoint of a third fellow, who
observed the incident and smelled a rat.  The reason the pool ball
took off like a bullet was that it was made *massless* by the
gravity-nullifying device.  Massless particles *must* travel at the
speed of light, hence the ball takes off at lightspeed.  Upon
leaving the gravity-free zone, the transition back to massy-ness,
and back to sane velocity (for massy particles) is incomplete, and
the ball still has near-light speed.  In the story, there is
foreshadowing of this, and after the fact this effect is used to
manufacture energy (by blowing small particles into the field and
capturing the radiation that results yielding heat, driving
turbines, etc, etc).

Now then, in the story, the slow fellow had figured out what was
going on before making his shot.  He realized that a particle going
into the field "ought to" leave the field along the same line, but
accelerated to near-lightspeed.  The third party suspected him of
this, but the slow guy covered his tracks well, by promoting the
theory that the exit path was random.  The third party was the only
one who noticed that the ball went *into* the field aimed directly
at the quick fellow's heart, and he couldn't get anybody else to
believe him.

Sadly, it seems to me that there is a problem with Asimov's
reasoning.  Such a field "should" act on the elementary particles
that *make up* the pool ball, not on the pool ball as a whole.
Thus, since the particles that make it up are vibrating
every-which-way (in thermal motion), the ball should have
*exploded*, leaving a sizeable crater, rather than turning into a
pool-ball-diameter beam of hard radiation.  Ah well, a fairly nice
short story with a twist ending, even so.

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors
Date: 18 Aug 85 20:03:32 GMT

Of course, now that Brennan has been tinkering, we are just as
likely to say "Yech-O, this yam tastes different!" once we take a
bite...  Should we lobby for net.misc.yam-classic?  Is Brennan on
the net?  :-)

(I suppose I should be ashamed for cross-posting to so many groups,
but as somebody who subscribes to all of these (I didn't say I
*read* them, did I?), I couldn't help myself.  I wonder what a
penguin Protector would be like?  Would tree-of-life virus cure
amnesia in a penguin?  But I digress...)

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: DIASPORAH by W. R. Yates
Date: 26 Aug 85 06:57:16 GMT

                      DIASPORAH by W. R. Yates
                             Baen, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Baen Books seems to find (first) novels with interesting ideas
behind them (FRONTERA, THE TORCH OF HONOR, THE CONTINENT OF LIES,
and this one comes to mind).  Unfortunately, the authors of most of
them haven't learned how to handle these ideas, and the reader ends
up disappointed.  (I have not yet read THE CONTINENT OF LIES so it
might not have this problem.)  DIASPORAH is no exception.

     The idea--Israel and the Middle East are destroyed and Israel
moves into space--is a catchy one.  I was hoping to see some
political intrigue, some discussion of how religious rules would be
interpreted in space (there have already been rabbinical rulings on
how one determines sunrise/sunset on orbital flights for purposes of
prayer), all sorts of interesting ideas.  And what do I get?  A
bumbling U.N. agent (and this is NOT supposed to be a comedy), some
stock Jewish characters (note that I don't say "stereotypes,"
because it's not that blatant), a predictable ending, and some of
the most outrageous howlers to hit science fiction in a long time:

   - In the back blurb, it says that the Middle East has been turned
     into a "mass of radioactive slag.  But unlike Islam, Israel
     survives."  Actually, Islam is far too wide-spread a religion
     to be destroyed even if the entire Middle East were wiped
     out--it is found on all continents, with especially heavy
     concentrations in Asia and Africa.  (This is the blurb-writer's
     fault.)

   - An agent is supposed to pass himself off as Jewish, but isn't
     briefed on the laws of kasruth (kosher).

   - Chapter XII has a date of Elul 4 when it's obviously Tishre 1
     (though the rest of the dates seem correct).

   - Yates's use of Hebrew and Yiddish terms (with apparently random
     capitalization rules) indicates an unfamiliarity with them.

   - The main computer is called "Gollum."  Close, but no cigar--he
     means (undoubtedly) "Golem" (an "artificial man" in Jewish
     legend, not unlike the Frankenstein Monster).  Actually, the
     glossary in the back has "golem," with it original meaning, but
     in the book, the spelling used is "Gollum."

   - The glossary misses a lot of terms used in the novel, and seems
     to have a lot that don't show up (maybe I just knew what they
     meant and didn't notice them).

   - A swimming pool would not also be used as a mikveh (there are
     water- flow requirements that wouldn't be met), and certainly
     not for both sexes if the users were Orthodox.  Speaking of
     which, Yates doesn't seem to understand what Orthodox means.
     He has a character talk about how an Orthodox area is
     apparently becoming Chassidic, because many of the men are
     starting to wear yarmulkes all the time.

   - The computer seems pretty much like our computers today, but
     suddenly it launches into a philosophical discussion with
     Greenberg, in which it professes to be Jewish.

   - When a character's radio antenna is snapped off, Yates says,
     "The vacuum about them was filled with Hebrew curses."  Sound
     doesn't travel in a vacuum.

   - Early on, Yates claims that the Middle East has been destroyed,
     but later he says that Jerusalem is still standing (just
     heavily radioactive).  If as many bombs were dropped on Israel
     as Yates claims, Jerusalem would be slag also--Israel is about
     the size of New Jersey.

   - Yates can't decide if the United Nations controls all the
     atomic weapons in the world, or if the United States and the
     Soviet Union still have some power.

     Yates had a good idea, but couldn't pull it off.  Perhaps he
will do better next time.  But perhaps Baen Books should not buy
books if they can't provide some editorial assistance where needed;
they should have caught most of the flaws mentioned above.  Me?  I'm
going to go back and see if THE TEXAS-ISRAELI WAR: 1999R was any
better.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: sun!alan@topaz.arpa (Alan Marr, Sun Graphics)
Subject: Nelvana Studios
Date: 20 Aug 85 07:38:59 GMT

In addition to doing "The Care Bears", "Rome-0 & Julie-8", and "Take
Me Up to the Ball Game", they did "Rock & Rule", which was a
full-length animated movie featuring the voices of Lou Reed and
Debbie Harry.  It was better than average, as movies go, and had a
bit of a futuristic background.

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 09:40:08 -0200
To: jwhite%maine.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive

> That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would
> undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology
> would be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of
> their advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be
> required.

And what makes you think such an upheaval will be bad for us? There
are certainly many things I don't like in our culture today - and
the alternative you're talking about is a culture which was able to
reach the stars!

> Oh well enough for now. I would be interested in titles/authors
> that have tried to approach the issue of cultural interaction
> between very different cultures.

Try Poul Anderson, particularly in the Polesotechnic League - Terran
Empire series. He usually looks from the other end of the stick (WE
are the aliens coming to a less advanced culture), but he does
handle the issue in a very interesting and thoughtful manner.

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:                         eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:                 eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:                           ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

From: <crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 23:06:30 PDT
Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive.

JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White) writes:
>When the first creature from another planet first sets foot,
>(tenticle, pod, or whatever it may 'set'), on Earth, if it is
>within our power to do so, we should kill it and eat it.

     Not a good idea.  If we landed someone on another planet and
the local primitive-compared-to-us natives promptly made a meal of
the astronaut, we would probably respond by conquering the planet,
killing a fair number of natives in the process.  We could be on the
receiving end of that.
     I think your fears are unnecessarily bleak.  Although Western
society subjugated natives in four continents, we weren't as far
above them as we would like to pretend.  Any star-voyaging race that
finds us will be further ahead of us than we are ahead of Cro-Magnon
man.
     Moreover, I don't believe that it is possible for any society
to reach the level of distant star exploration until it learns to
behave itself in its own backyard.  Star travelling peoples won't
have fought a war in several generations.  They aren't going to
re-learn just for us.
      For some good books about the meeting of two radically
different cultures, try H. Beam Piper's "Fuzzy" novels.  They don't
fall into any of the four categories you mentioned ("cuddly" would
only fit a very shallow reading).

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

Date: Tue Aug 20 15:17:05 1985
From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson)
Subject: "Anti-Art" snobbery"

Hooray for Davis Tucker finally taking to task those people who
practice "Anti-art" snobbery -- those who snort with derision at
something which requires you to turn on a 5 Watt bulb over your head
and use a few brain cells.  Perhaps this category includes those
people flaming at "awful" DHALGREN ("Gawd, this stuff makes me
*think* -- yukk, give me Edgar Rice Burroughs anyday!").  I have
never read DHALGREN, but it's on my list of Must Read books (and
it's moved up a couple of notches because of this controversy).  I
will say, though, that I have never heard it described with anything
less than respectful awe.  It won the Nebula Award, which is given
by the Science Fiction Writers of America to the work which the
*writers* feel is the best piece of literature published in the past
year (and it won the Nebula back in the days when the award did mean
something).  I think that anybody who says that DHALGREN is a poorly
written, plotless piece of trash should maybe ask themselves if
there is even the remotest chance they might be MISSING something?

I am relatively new to the net, but I'm rather disturbed by the
inordinate amount of time spent discussing "mindless adventure"
books and films -- Piers Anthony, Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the
Flame, the deep questions behind "Back to the Future" -- sure, it's
nice to read books for fun once in a while, but SF *is* the
"Literature of Ideas" and you don't often find dazzling ideas in
gosh*wow! space opera.  I can enjoy watching a fluffy adventure
movie, too, but I enjoy a fascinating challenge much more.  Too many
ray guns, rocketships, and bug-eyed monsters makes me afraid my
brain will atrophy!
                                -- Kevin J. Anderson

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 85 18:30:05 EDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Critics/Reveiews/Slugs
From: Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA

Here's my dose of gasoline to the critics debate.

It's not that I rank a critic as the LOWEST form of parasite (after
all, there is Dave Barrys' famous 'slime covered slug that has just
vomited on itself' to contend with), it's just that he/she/it comes
vanishingly close.  I think one of the best things about science
fiction is the lack of professional criticism.  It has helped the
genre stay crisp and innovative, kept it from miring down in the
defensive posture exhibited by the struggling authors forever
ducking the screeching of critical hags.  When a writer starts
worrying about the effects of an opinion put forth by some withered
peeping tom, he starts writing defensively, working so as not to
lose.  This leaves less and less time to come up with the new and
imaginative ideas that abound in our genre.

Does this mean that I think its wrong to criticize?  Of course not.
One expects friends to take you aside now and again and warn you
that your fly is unbuttoned. Or get drunk with some new acquaintance
at a Con and have him tell you the woes of the art, the trouble with
these new-comers, and how things were better in the old days.  These
things can even get nasty or spiteful, and while I don't like it, I
still wouldn't put it in the same category as the words of a Critic
(capital C).  A Critic is a second party, someone on the outside
that's talked a third party into paying him a salary for throwing
rocks inside.

Finally, as you can see by my definition, it doesn't include
reviewers, archivists, or SF-librarians.  It's more of an attitude
than a job title that makes a critic into a Critic.  It's someone
holding himself separate from a group, a person who goes to a party
and stands on the roof peeing through the skylights at the people
below.

This definition probably doesn't include many on this net (even
those that in the heat of argrument may cross the fine line between
debate and insult), or anyone that takes the time and effort to get
involved in something they care about.

-Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Aug 85 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #337
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 337

Today's Topics:

           Books - Robinson & Salmonson & Story Cycles &
                   The Science Fiction Book Club,
           Films - Silent Running (2 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Ewoks & Storm Troopers & Critics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 12:20:47 EDT
From: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA
Subject: Robinson and 'five-guys...

Sorry, Robinson does write bar stories with bad puns in addition to
excellent work like STARDANCE.  This is not to say that his bar
stories are not great reads, just not great works of art.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 20:17:07 CDT
From: moorel@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Oriental Fantasy Novels

In response to L S Chabot's post concerning Barry Hughart's
_Bridge_of_Birds: Although I'm not familiar with his works, I've
found several books of the same type of fantasy set in the Orient
"that never was". The author's Jessica Amanda Salmonson, and the
books are the Tomoe Gozen trilogy and a new book, Ou_Lu_Khen
_and_the_Beautiful_Madwoman. The former are set in a mythical Japan,
and are the adventures of a female samurai warrior, Tomoe Gozen. The
latter book is set in an equally mythical China, and deals with the
courtship of a holy mad-woman by an ordinary man. Her writing style
is elegant and intense, and her characters are very well developed.
If you enjoy this type of unusual fantasy novel, give these books a
try.
                    Lynne C. Moore (MOOREL@EGLIN-VAX.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa
Subject: re: story cycles
Date: 17 Aug 85 08:46:40 GMT

> Good heavens!  We can't forget Canterbury Tales.

Having moved from stories told in a bar to "The Canterbury Tales",
we might as well go on one step further and deal with story cycles.
The two best known, other than Chaucer, are Boccaccio's "Decameron"
and "The Arabian Nights".  The idea behind these works is that, for
some reason, characters start telling stories to one another.  In
"The Decameron", the stories are told as entertainment while some
folks are waiting out a plague in a closed estate.  In "The Arabian
Nights", of course, the stories are (mostly) told by Scheherazade,
in her attempt to forstall her death.  The latter is more
interesting to fantasy lovers, as it recounts many fantastic tales.
It is also more interesting to computer scientists, for it has a
lovely recursive structure, in which stories are told within stories
within stories.  If your only exposure to "The Arabian Nights" has
been through children's versions, you're in for a treat, as the
children's editions trash the basic structure, remove all sex and
bawdiness (and there's a lot), and, since they were largely written
for Europeans, cut all the stories in which Christians appear as
villains.  Among other things, this last loses a fantastic extended
epic about the Crusades, told from a Moslem perspective, for a
change.  Uncut editions of "The Arabian Nights" are expensive (they
run to several volumes) and can sometimes be hard to find.  (Other
times Publisher's Clearinghouse is trying to unload them.)  If the
full version is unavailable or too daunting in size, there is a
portable version which includes many stories and summarizes the
rest.  It's known as "The Portable Arabian Nights", I think, and is
put out by the same people who do "The Portable Faulkner", "The
Portable Poe", etc.

On a truly obscure note, there is another story cycle known as "The
Saragossa Manuscript".  It was written in the early 19th century by
a Polish count named Potocki, and deals with the adventures of an
impoverished but proud young nobleman making his way across a
deserted part of Spain in order to take up a commission in the
Spanish army.  The structure is like that of "The Arabian Nights",
but has an additional twist: not only are stories contained within
stories, many levels deep, but stories on different levels start
interacting.  The first part is of more interest to fantasy lovers,
but the latter half contains a fine set of semi-comic adventures.
Unfortunately, Potocki cops out at the very end.  "The Saragossa
Manuscript" is very hard to get hold of, in my experience.  The only
English language edition I know of is in two parts, "The New
Decameron" and "The Saragossa Manuscript", both published in the mid
sixties.  Major libraries may have copies, and any library can
probably track one down for you if you expend enough effort.  The
Research Library at UCLA has the only copies I have ever seen.  For
those who read Polish, it can likely be found at a good Polish
bookstore (wherever those are), as I understand that Poles are
rather proud of the book.  There is also an excellent film version
of "The Saragossa Manuscript", in Polish and infrequently shown, but
none the less one of my favorite movies.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Science Fiction Book Club
Date: 26 Aug 85 06:58:07 GMT

             Comments on The Science Fiction Book Club
                   An article by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Recently, Ellen Asher of the Doubleday Science Fiction Book
Club (SFBC) came to speak at NJSFS (the New Jersey Science Fiction
Society).  Some of her comments were fairly interesting, so I will
relay them as I remember them.

     The SFBC is one of seven Doubleday book clubs (Asher said she
likes to think of it as one sucker on the book club tentacle of the
Doubleday octopus).  It is the largest of their specialty clubs
(they also have a military history club and the Mystery Guild, for
example).  I don't recall if it's larger than their Literary Guild,
though.  The seven clubs have a membership totaling over one
million, and since the mailing list that the SFBC sells (which
includes expired members) is about 250,000, one can conclude that
the SFBC itself has about 200,000 members.  (The actual figures are
secret, apparently.)

     There was a lot of discussion about the books that are
selected.  There are several considerations.  The books are printed
"letter-press" rather than offset, so that books relying on strange
typographies or complicated interior illustrations have little
chance of being chosen (alternate selections can be printer offset
in special cases, but the main selections cannot be).  Most are
issued as hardcovers, though they occasionally issue a trade
paperback.  (There is a new LeGuin--I've forgotten the title--that
will be a trade paperback, slip-cased with cassette.)  Because of
the "negative option" method used (see below), and because so many
of the members are minors, the main selections usually do not
include "adult" (sexual) material.  Doubleday has no desire to get
hauled into court for sending unsolicited sexual material to minors.

     Several of us (including me) decried the swing from science
fiction to fantasy that we see the SFBC taking.  There appear to be
several reasons for this.  One, fantasy sells (according to Asher,
and she should know).  Two, there is a lot more fantasy available
than there used to be.  (Look in your local Waldenbooks or B. Dalton
if you don't believe this.)  Three, and this is my observation based
on an extended conversation, Asher likes fantasy better than science
fiction, and Arthurian/high fantasy better than dark fantasy
(including horror, but also works by such authors as Glen Cook and
Stephen Brust).  While she buys the obligatory science fiction (no
one would dream of not offering the latest Asimov or Niven), she
tends to go for the new fantasy authors more than the new science
fiction authors.  This is, of course, somewhat self-fulfilling.  As
more fantasy is offered, people who prefer fantasy join the SFBC
because they can get more of what they want, while people who prefer
science fiction leave (or are dropped) because they can't find what
they want.  (If a member hasn't bought a book in a year, they are
sent a letter asking them to return an enclosed card if they wish to
remain a member.  This way the SFBC doesn't keep spending postage on
people who never buy anything.)

     Someone asked about how well the book club editions hold up
over time.  Asher replied that they are printed on acid-free paper,
so should last reasonably well.  This provoked a stir of surprise,
since Gregg Press and Bluejay Books have been promoting their books
as being superior to most because of the acid-free paper.  Why
doesn't the SFBC mention this in their advertising?  Asher said that
every time this was suggested, the powers that be at Doubleday
insisted that no one would understand what that meant, so it didn't
pay to advertise it.  If enough people wrote the SFBC and asked them
to switch to acid-free paper, they might realize that we *do* know
what the stuff is!

     There has been some discussion about the "negative option"
method that the SFBC uses (if you don't reply otherwise, you
automatically get the main selections).  People have claimed that
there is some way to get on a "positive option" list, where you
don't have to reply each month.  When I asked about this, the
response was that there was such a list, but it is reserved for
people who have some good reason to be on it.  Most of the people on
the list, for example, are overseas, where the cost of postage and
handling is high enough that the SFBC felt that the default sending
of the selections wouldn't be fair (not to mention the problems of
getting the cards back to the SFBC back in time to have them not
send the selections, if negative option were in effect).  I suspect
that people who travel a good deal (the military, etc.) could also
be put on the list.

     No one talked about the cost of postage and handling.  Everyone
knows it's high; everyone knows there's not much that can be done
about it.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: ihuxn!gadfly@topaz.arpa (Gadfly)
Subject: Re: Silent Running music
Date: 21 Aug 85 04:11:08 GMT

> I was just watching the closing credits of "Silent Running" on TV,
> and I thought I noticed the name of Peter Schikele, the infamous
> PDQ Bach scholar, in the credits for the music...  ... could you
> verify this for me?
>
>     Barry Margolin

Yes, Schickele did write it.  He does serious stuff every once in a
while.

ken perlow
(312)979-7753
..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken

------------------------------

Date: 21-Aug-85 09:48 PDT
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Silent Running music
To: mit-eddie!barmar@topaz.arpa

I have sent the following before, but thought it might again be of
interest.  I have talked with Joan about her Silent Running music.
She told me that if she could, she would destroy every copy of the
film...to remove all traces of the music.  She was embarassed about
her music.  I don't know why, I loved the movie and her music.
Guess it is like Jane Fonda wanting to destroy all copies of
BARBARELLA.

--Bi//

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 12:29:59 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Ewoks and victory

>From: /Bruce N. Wheelock/, arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd
>      Aside from English and French colonial history being full of
> examples to the contrary, remember that the Ewoks were not
> fighting alone.  There was a squad of Rebel troops and a Wookie in
> a Scoutwalker.

Also remember that if it hadn't been for the Wookie in a
Scoutwalker, the Ewoks probably would have lost.  At least, that was
the impression I got.  So I think that the story fits the assumption
that "guerillas don't win without assistance from an allied force"
(even tho' that assumption doesn't always ring true).

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 12:09:17 EDT
From: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA
Subject: Empire Troops

    Concerning the Empire hasn't anyone noticed that the Empire's
space fleet and army are filled with incompetents right up the chain
of command, including the Emperor, but not Vader and that the ground
troops are ill-equipped.

    First, the ground troops are worthless. True they have blasters
and armor that todays armies would kill to get, but notice:

      1. No organization better than an armed mob. In the Ewok
         attack the Imperials go charging off into the woods in no
         order and get ambushed one by one.
      2. No hand to hand combat training. In one scene an Imperial
         gets a spear in the back in a vulnerable joint.  If they
         were taught to fight back to back and given reasonable
         weapons for hand to hand like light sabers (they would not
         even need any real proficiency at them) , any Ewok who
         closes to close range is dead.
      3. No hand grenades. Imperial troopers in pit getting slowly
         stoned to death. One hand grenade and the Ewoks would be
         dead.
      4. Extremely badly thought out fighting vehicles.  Vulnerable
         to mere logs and extremely unstable on rough terrain.  A
         better vehicle would something like the rebel craft used to
         fight walkers in Empire Strikes Back, but larger and more
         heavily armed and armored.
      5. In general no use of high explosives and fragmentation,
         which the troopers in their armor could live through while
         their lesser armored enemies would die.
      6. The officers are not armored which means killing them is
         easy and causes disorganization of Imperial troops.

    Second, general incompetence and lack of initiative at all
levels.  In the last movie, the officer goes off into the woods
without ensuring the rebels cannot do anymore damage by either
ensuring a sufficient guard or killing his prisoners(remember no
Geneva convention). The designers of the Death Stars left a small
Achilles' heel a clear sign of incompetent design.  In Star Wars,
letting an 'empty' pod escape without immediate inspection or
destruction is also ridiculous.  Finally, the Emperor, himself, who
must have gotten lax or an incredible case of hubris, brings the
rebel fleet into his grasp only to let it get away.  A better
solution would have been the immediate destruction of the raiding
party (remember he gave the rebel spies the real access codes for
the shuttle).  Destroying both Luke and Vader at a distance( like
blowing the shuttle they come up on), and giving his fleet leave to
blow away the rebels with the support of the Death Star.

   The rebels are extremely lucky to have such an incompetent army
as opponents, otherwise they would never have won.

------------------------------

From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Critics
Date: 20 Aug 85 14:03:07 GMT

        I do not see why people get so upset when critics say what
is good and what is bad, what should be read and what should not.
The only critic I have ever found who knows what I like and don't
like is me. I have not read any of those "WHAT'S WRONG WITH SCIENCE
FICTION" since Part II (I wasn't on the net for part one) and if you
disagree with what the writer writes, don't read it.
        As for whether a story is ART or a GOOD READ, WHO CARES? If
you like it, good, you have just enjoyed a fine story. If you don't,
you don't. I wish people would stop taking what "critics" think so
seriously.
                                Kenneth Crist
                                Computer Vision Lab
                                University of Maryland

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Aug 85 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #338
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 Aug 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 338

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Asimov & Cherryh,
                     Films - Fantastic Voyage & Dark Star,
                     Miscellaneous - Critics (3 msgs) &
                             Colonization & Storm Troopers &
                             Star Trek News

----------------------------------------------------------------------

To: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop)
Cc: petrick@lll-crg.arpa (Jim Petrick)
Subject: Re: Asimov and scientific revenge (from BTTF time travel
Subject: discussion)
Date: 22 Aug 85 11:24:29 PDT (Thu)
From: Jim Hester <hester@uci-icse>

The title of Asimov's short story dealing with two men, a gravity
nullifier, and a billiard ball as a murder weapon was "The Billiard
Ball", and was printed in two collections of Asimov's short stories:
"The Best of Isaac Asimov" and the more famous "Asimov's Mysteries".

Minor correction: The 'slow guy' was the scientist (a theoritician),
and came up with the mathematics for describing gravity.  The 'quick
one' was just a good field engineer who had become rich implementing
the slow guy's ideas.  He was no scientist.  In fact, he had no
understanding of the machine he built.  It never occurred to him to
wonder about the ultra-violet light that the null-G field emitted
(caused by air wandering into the field, coming out at lightspeed,
and burning in the surrounding air), explaining it to the crowd
simply as a side-effect of the field.  The slow theoretician managed
to quickly deduce the cause of the light and used it to give the
flashy engineer what he had coming, using the engineer's own
non-understood machine as the weapon.

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: CJCherryh
Date: 21 Aug 85 14:41:59 GMT

CJC is a superb writer! Her Elves are unsurpassed...  Did I say
Elves (plural)?  I meant her Ealdwood Elfess truly captures a view
of the essence of *being* an Elf that no (NO) other writer has been
able to do.

D. L. McKiernan
cbuxc!dim

------------------------------

Date: Wed 21 Aug 85 16:35:02-GDT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage (Flaky Assumptions)

> From: Keith Dale <kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa>
>  1. The miniaturization process begins with setting up an
>     homogeneous field around the object(s) to be mini'ed.
>     What kind of field?  Well, a field that reacts in equal
>     force or amount to all points within it.  So, Flaky
>     Assumption #1 is: this field does not behave according
>     to the inverse square rule.

Hang on. Without even going any further than your first 'Flaky
Assumption', what's wrong with homogeneous fields ?
F(x,y,z,t)=(6,6,6) ok to me as a nice three dimensional time
independent vector field.  As a practical example air resistance is
the same in any direction you care to move in being dependent on the
gas density. What about the electric field between 2 charged plate
conductors (ok in theory they should be infinite for perfection).
Then don't forget the electric field due to a dipole which falls off
as inverse cube. What about Gauss ?  What about billions of other
examples. Or have I missed something entirely ?

                        Alan Greig
                        Computer Centre
                        Dundee College of Technology
                        Dundee
                        Scotland

Janet:  Alan%DCT@DDXA
Arpa:   Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 85 10:47 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Music in SF: Dark Star

Apologies if anybody has mentioned this before, but there is the
classic "Benson, Arizona" from _Dark Star_.  Speaking of which, was
this the first movie to use the "blurred starfield" effect for the
jump into hyperspace?  If so, that makes two things Lucas lifted
from _Dark Star_ for _Star Wars_ (the other being the phrase
"commence primary sequence").  Has anybody caught any others?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 85 11:30:39 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Art vs. Entertainment
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Davis Tucker:
> How many "enjoyable" works have allowed you or forced you to walk
> a mile in another man's shoes ("Soul On Ice"), or understand the
> nature of death ("The Death Of Ivan Ilych") ...etc...

Paul Chisholm:
>Do you want a list?  Fiction can be "entertaining" in some sense
>and still do all those things.

Okay here we go ... "Catch-22" is one of the funniest books I have
ever read, but it did broaden my understanding of what it means to
confront death. Thomas Pynchon's "V." was hilarious in places,
engrossing throughout, and parts of it (the African reminiscence)
rubbed my nose in what we humans have done to each other.

I could probably go on and name several more.  There seem to be two
untruths going around: (1) ART is boring, dictated by omniscient
critics, and pretentious; and (2) ENTERTAINMENT is nonserious,
unimportant fluff ingested mindlessly by the masses.

Both ART and ENTERTAINMENT are subjective judgments (we've gone over
this before), which to a certain extent can be agreed-upon, since
most of us share a cultural background.  The two concepts are, as
Ken Moreau (I believe) put it, orthogonal: either can exist without
the other.

Part of a critic's function is to describe whether or not the book
is (in the critic's opinion, and thus, more likely than not, in
yours) Art and/or Entertainment.  Any of the four possibilities
(except, I think, neither) is perfectly OK -- as long as that's what
the book intends itself to be.  Books that are written as art, but
are patent failures at it, are most often supremely wretched, unless
they then become unintentionally entertaining.  Failures at
entertainment are also usually pretty grim.

I'm not sure about books that try to be both but fail at one.
(Can't think of any examples right off.)  By and large, I would
expect that they would fail too, but there may be some that still
work in the surviving category.

Enough rambling.  What do you think?
                                        --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 23:52:05 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: critics

Ken Moreau writes:
>But I won't depend on some pompous critic (or even you, Mr. Tucker)
>to tell me that some piece of sh** is art simply because I don't
>immediately like or understand it.  If it is art (and to me that is
>a very select, very praiseworthy term), then it will be immediately
>obvious to everyone. If it is not, then it fails the test, and no
>critic can sneer at my taste enough to make me admit it is art.

I hope that you don't mean that, once you've decided that it doesn't
meet your qualifications for art, then you cannot be persuaded.  If
you do, then you are being rather narrowminded.  Good critics
persuade, they do not browbeat.

I disagree that great art is immediately obvious to everyone.  You
yourself said earlier that you don't believe that there are
absolutes in art, so how can you be sure that anyone else will agree
with you when you say something is great art?  If it's only great
art if everyone agrees, then I imagine that nothing is great art.

What I find most disturbing is your contention that, if one doesn't
immediately recognize the value of a work, or if a book isn't a good
read, then it is not a great work of art.  The reason I find it
disturbing is because I know, from my own experience, that this
isn't true (for me, at least).  Therefore, I suspect that you are
denying yourself some of the deeper pleasures of reading in favor of
shallower and more transitory pleasures.  (I could, of course, be
wrong.  Perhaps you have read books like "The Sound and the Fury"
and "Ulysses" and been immediately blown away by what good reads
they were.  I had to work at understanding and appreciating them,
but I don't regret a moment of that labor.)  If, of course, you
really don't care about such books, if you only are interested in
reading works which appeal to you from the moment you pick them up,
that's your prerogative.  My objection is that, despite your claims
that you don't believe in absolute standards, you impugn those who
disagree with you, by suggesting that they are pretentious, that
they have less understanding of art than you, that they don't really
like what they say they like, etc.  If you are secure in your
beliefs, than perhaps a less emphatic and sneering tone would be
better.

And Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>Finally, as you can see by my definition, it doesn't include
>reviewers, archivists, or SF-librarians.

A close examination of his entire posting suggests to me that Mr.
Powers' definition of Critic (his idea of a insulting term) is any
person making comments on a work of art whose comments he
consistently dislikes.  I, for one, do not agree with his article,
nor with his veiled suggestion that Critics have caused writers in
the mainstream of fiction to lose their inventiveness.  True, there
is little enough originality on the bestseller list, but if one
looks, one can find interesting, stimulating, original writing
outside science fiction.  For those who haven't tried looking, I
suggest doing so, and will be happy to provide a list of authors to
start with.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Thu Aug 22 12:47:00 1985
From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson)
Subject: A Critic's Point of View

A few words of background information, so I won't be just a bunch of
colored pixels on your screen: For the past six years I have been
the Senior Reviewer of the Midwest Book Review, the second largest
book-review organization in North America; I've had over a hundred
book reviews published in dozens of different magazines, and I
*enjoy* reviewing books.  Consequently, I take a little interest in
discussions like the one we've been having on the net, and I
particularly take notice when people start comparing critics with
things like slime covered slugs vomiting on themselves... (Although
I should admit that I consider myself a "reviewer" instead of a
critic, so maybe that doesn't mean me after all.)

First, a lot of people are way off base by implying that critics rip
apart each and every thing they review.  Wrong-o, guys -- if you
keep track, I think you'll find that critics give good reviews at
least as often as they give bad ones.  The problem is, most good
reviews are relatively innocuous and nobody remembers them. . .but
if you see a bad review of a book/film you liked, it's bound to
arouse your ire and make you say some of the things that have been
popping up on the net.  I personally find that I give a good review
to books usually more than 80% of the time -- that's not to say I
think 8 out of 10 books are terrific, but that I am fairly good at
selecting books I'll enjoy.

Second, although a few pretentious critics may think so, the world
really has no omniscient standard by which to say whether a critic
is "right" or "wrong" -- YOU, the reader, have to select a
reviewer/critic who is right for your own tastes.  Different
reviewers reflect different attitudes; I know what *I* like, and
that is the only criterion I can use to judge a book...if you like
the same types of books I do, then you'll probably agree with most
of my reviews.  If we have very different tastes, I'd suggest you
find a different critic who will be more useful in helping you
decide which books you'll like.  But don't say I'm "wrong" because
you don't agree with what I said about a particular book.

For example, I find that I usually agree with Roger Ebert about
films, and I usually disagree with Gene Siskel.  However, a friend
of mine has the exact opposite reaction.  We don't fight over which
critic is "right" -- she listens to Siskel, and I listen to Ebert,
in order to make our decisions.

I know a lot of people have a knee-jerk resentment toward critics,
in which they show a snobbishness at least equal to what they
perceive on the part of book reviewers.  But the world just isn't
black and white like that, and please stop using us as scapegoats.

                                        Kevin J. Anderson

------------------------------

From: warwick!simon@topaz.arpa (Simon Forth)
Subject: Re: STL colonization and exponential growth
Date: 20 Aug 85 17:10:39 GMT

ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
>>From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>>  Not a problem.  Warwick!simon@topaz ignores time dilation.
>>Whenever a solar system gets too crowded, people can travel to an
>>arbitrarily distant point in an arbitrarily short time by
>>travelling close enough to the speed of light.  Or they could use
>>suspended animation and travel slower.
>
>But time dilation does not slow down the people who are still in
>the solar system and reproducing, and they are the problem. Unless
>you assume that you can ship out an arbitrarily great number of
>people.

I think Ned has got the point, that the volume of colonized space is
growing as the cube of the distance travelled from the centre,
whereas the new space being explored is growing as the square of the
distance from the centre (if you assume uniform expansion in a
sphere.)

So eventually you will run foul of an unfavourable square/cube
ratio.

It would be useful if someone could produce some figures for this. I
have hazy recollections of some figures that said that, if Mankind
started to colonize nearby planets and that these planets also send
out planets then the whole galaxy would be colonized in 20000 years
(This figure I am not sure about,) but certainly less time than it
takes light to cross the galaxy.

Simon Forth. Dept of Computing.
University of Warwick. Coventry CV4 7AL. UK
{various backbone sites in US}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!simon

------------------------------

From: sun!jsc@topaz.arpa (James Carrington)
Subject: Re: Decline and fall of the StarWars Empire
Date: 20 Aug 85 19:46:41 GMT

>On this silly subject, what did the armour in Star Wars ever do?
>All I can recall is that it provided comm facilities, blast
>protection for the eyes, and looked funky. Did any armour *ever*
>turn a shot? What's

If you look carefully, or have the aid of a slo-mo button on your
vcr, you can see a shot bounce off the helmets of two Rebel
defenders aboard Leia's courier ship, before ricocheting into a wall
in SW I (or IV, actually).  That's the only instance I know off, and
note that it happens with the /lightly\ armored rebels, not the
almost-encased imperials.

James Carrington
Associate Engineer (Co-op Student, UCBerkeley)
Workstation Division
NFS Department
Sun Microsystems Inc.
2550 Garcia Ave. MS1-40
Mountain View CA 94043
415-960-7438

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 85 08:36 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek News Flashes
Cc: Trek^.wbst@Xerox.ARPA, maida.yktvmv%ibm-sj.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA

Creation Con LA: Creation Con has apparently scheduled a new LA area
con, October 12-13 at the Sheraton Premier in Universal City.
Leonard Nimoy will be there.

Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek's creator, will be getting a star on
Hollywood Boulevard.  The ceremony will be on September 4th at
12:30.  The star will be at 6683 Hollywood Blvd.

The Star Trek Welcommittee has a new department:
PERSONAL COMPUTER CONSULTANT. Allyson Whitfield-Dyar, 461 North 'M'
St., Oxnard, CA 93030.  Will answer questions from fans who wish to
use their personal computer in their fan activities.  Please enclose
a self-addressed-stamped envelope.

Lisa Wahl
Star Trek Welcommittee

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Aug 85 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #339
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 24 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 339

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Tolkien,
                 Films - Fantastic Voyage & Battlefield Earth,
                 Television - The Final Countdown

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Re: Fate of the Protectors of Home
Date: 21 Aug 85 14:55:24 GMT

> From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
>      As I remember the story, (and this may be faulty) the Home
> Protectors were going off to fight the Pak, at the speed of light.

...at nearly the speed of light...

> that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster
> than the speed of light yet.  So the Home Protectors spent two
> hundred years traveling to fight the Pak, hopefully beat the Pak,
> and then another two

slightly less than 200 years because the Pak were cming towards them
as well...

> hundred years to come back.  This would explain the lack of
> interaction between the Home Protectors and the human race.

They would have come back before Ringworld. I don't have all the
dates here, but when Truesdale left Home there hadn't been any
contact with the Kzin.  The man-kzin wars took easily a couple
hundred years (thanks to time dilation), before the Puppeteers sold
the Hyperdrive to Homo Sap... quite a while later Bey Schaeffer was
born (there were multiple centenarians who had been in the wars)...
Bey Schaeffer had been around for a while when Louis Wu was born (he
was his foster-father, see "Borderlands of Sol"), and Louis was 200
years old at the time of Ringworld. This comes to well over 400
years after Protector.

>      Maybe the next story will be about how thousands of Home
> Protectors deal with the human race?

Known Space was pretty big by this time. Maybe the next story will
be what happens when the results of the pak/human fight are
discovered?

Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Protectors
Date: 22 Aug 85 17:40:21 GMT

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
> 1.  Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would
>     live in a free atmosphere.  This is how Roy Treusdale got
>     turned into a Protector.
> 2.  The virus got all over the Home colony.  The entire elligible
>     population changed into Protectors.  The rest died.  Home was
>     then used as a staging area to fight the incoming Pak.  First,
>     the Home boys ( sorry ) built fake cities and stuff all over
>     the planet to sucker in the Pak scout ships.  The scouts were
>     destroyed, and the Home team ( real sorry ) left this part of
>     space to fight of the main Pak fleet.  No more word is ever
>     heard from Truesdale or his followers.

Sorry, but what the Brennan-monster grew was a strain of the
tree-of-life virus that would grow in a human.  Thus, all that
Brennan needed to do was to insure that either his or Truesdale's
corpse reached Home.

> 4.  Lots and lots of centuries later, we have Louis Wu.  In
>     'Engineers', he reminices that he's lived on lot's of worlds.
>     Lots of years spent on Earth, and enough years on various
>     colony world to make him feel like a native.  On of these he
>     mentions is Home.  So apparently Home is resettled.
>
>       So, questions that I don't see clear answers to:
>
> 1.  How were the Home Protectors able to clean up the atmosphere
>     of Home ?  And did they also remove all trace of their
>     presence ( fake cities, etc ) from same ?  I guess they had to
>     have, but this is a bit heavy on my suspension of disbelief.

The reason that there was no tree-of-life virus when Home was
resettled is that there were no more humans left.  No humans, no
virus, no more protectors.  Also, "Protector" implies that Home was
devastated by fusion bombs from the Pak scouts.  Granted that the
rather large craters are hard to hide...

> 2.  The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors.  If they
>     hadn't, humans would know.

Remember the epilogue?  Truesdale sent off the pulse iff they lost.
Though this raises some interesting questions.  What happened to the
Pak scouts?  Maybe they both lost -- doomsday weapon?

>     None of them but Truesdale had descendants left anywhere at
>     all, so after the Pak were destroyed, there would have been no
>     reason to live on.

Well, Brennan said that the will to die was mostly cultural.  They
could generalize their paternal instincts to the whole human race.
But I think they all died, Pak and Homers.

> 3.  Small detail question.  The stl Ramships found on the starport
>     docks on the Ringworld were built from modified Ringworld
>     attitude jets, right ?  Built by Ringworld natives ( City
>     Builders ? ), millenia after all the Ringworld Pak died off.
>     So whose Pak style vacsuit did Louis and Chmeee find on that
>     one intact starship ?  Vacsuits are form fitting.  Teela
>     Brown's ?

Pak-style doesn't necessarily mean Pak-shaped.  But the City
Builders "spilled over the rim walls and found starships".  These
could be old-style Pak ships (Hope there's no tree-of-life still on
board!)

As a shameless ploy, let me recommend the Chaosium game "Ringworld".
The essays contained within are quite good.

Anyone got any solutions to the Grog Problem?

Jeff Okamoto
okamoto@BERKELEY.EDU
..!ucbvax!okamoto

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 17 Aug 85 18:44:09 GMT

There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda" (Translated
from Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in the 13th
century) and minding my own business, when I ran across the
following section, where Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's Vision:

        There many dwarfs
        resembling men
        they made in earth
        as Durin said.

    And the sibyl gives these as their names:

        Nyi, Nidhi,    (I'm using dh for a d with slash through it)
        Nordhri, Sudhri,
        Austri, Vestri,
        Althjof, Dvalin,
        Nar, Nain,
        Niping, Dain,
        Bifur, Bafur,
        Bombor, Nori,
        Ori, Onar,
        Oin, Mjodhvitnir,
        Vig and Ganndalf,   [Footnote on Ganndalf: "Sorcerer-elf"]
        Vinndalf, Thorin,
        Fili, Kili,
        Fundin, Vali,
        Thror, Throin,
        Threkk, Lit, Vit,
        Nyr, Nyradh,
        Rekk, Radhsvidh,

    And these too are dwarfs and they live in rocks, but the above-
    mentioned live in the earth:

        Draupnir, Dogthvari,
        Haur, Hugstari,
        Hledhjolf, Gloin,
        Dori, Ori,
        Duf, Andvari,
        Heptifili,
        Har, Sviar.

    The following, however, came from Svarin's grave-mound to
    Aurvangar in Joruvellir, and from these have sprung Lovar; their
    names are

        Skirvir, Virvir,
        Skafidh, Ai,
        Alf, Ingi,
        Eikinskjaldi,  [Footnote on this says "With-oak-shield"]
        Fal, Frosti,
        Fidh, Ginnar.

There were footnotes on some of the others, but these were the only
ones that seemed to have meaning to Tolkien fans.  So if any of you
want to write about more dwarves, here are some likely ones...
Dennis McKiernan, are you in need of any for your world?

Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the
dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and
rhyming.  Little did I know!

        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage fix
Date: 20 Aug 85 17:39:58 GMT

>From: Keith Dale <kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa>
>Steven Litvintchouk <sdl@mitre-bedford> wrote:
>>The problem with "Fantastic Voyage" is that they could never
>>figure out a consistent relationship between the principle of
>>miniaturization and the conservation of mass.
>
>How about this as an attempt at an explanation?

The book explanation was that the ``field'' altered the relationship
of the people (ship, rubber suits etc) to the space in which they
were embedded, so that they appeared to be smaller, with less mass
etc.  (It's the old rotate-them-through-hyperspace trick, 99!)

That seems whole lot easier to buy than this ``convert them to
energy so they're smaller'' idea.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: The "Battlefield Earth" movie
Date: 22 Aug 85 18:28:49 GMT

I recall recently seeing a posting asking about a possible
"Battlefield Earth" movie, and another posting from one of the
well-known critics on the net saying that he had had no news of such
a film. At that time I thought I had thrown away what evidence I had
in this area, so I did not respond. I just moved my terminal and
discovered the relevant piece of paper, so here is some info:

What I have is a contest entry form, which I picked up off a
bookstore display-stand which held copies of BATTLEFIELD EARTH many
months ago (either late 84 or early 85). It is titled "Battlefield
Earth Movie Contest". The entry deadline was 15 March 85, with the
drawing to be held 31 March 85. It was sponsored by "Bridge
Publications, Inc.; Salem Productions, Inc., and 'participating
official Battlefield Earth radio stations'".

The contest seemed to be directed to other areas of the country than
here (St. Louis, MO), and I never heard anything of it except seeing
this display. The entries were divided up in a strange fashion -- I
never saw such a thing before. There are a number of radio stations
in major markets listed as "Group One" (seven stations), then 33 or
so stations in smaller markets listed as "Group Two", and finally
the rest of the world is lumped as "Group Three". The rules say that
people living in the areas covered by the listed radio stations
should send their entries to that station; everyone else (that is,
"group 3") should send the entries to an address in LA.

Prizes are to be awarded thusly (exact quotes from form, plus my
comments in [brackets]:

One winner from each Group 1 radio station will be selected at
random from the entries submitted. Each Group 1 winner will receive
the opportunity to perform as an extra in the movie Battlefield
Earth *plus* a free round trip airline ticket to the Colorado
location (courtesy of Frontier Airlines), five days lodging at
Denver's beautiful 19th Place Hotel [I assume that is a name, not a
rating! :-)], and a cash prize corresponding to the call number of
the sponsoring station (not to exceed $200). Listen to your official
station for details.

[I have no idea what a "call number" for a radio station is -- if
they mean the frequency, it doesn't sound like much of a prize --
since they limit it to $200, it must be that they count kHz as
pennies (for AM stations) or MHz as pennies (for FM) -- so, if the
station is on 1570 kHz, you win $15.70. If an FM station is on 90.7
MHz, you win $9.07.  Big deal... :-) WM]

One Semi-Finalist from each Group 2 radio station will be selected
at random from among those entries received. Each Group 2
semi-finalist will receive a cash prize equal to the call numbers of
their sponsoring radio station (not to exceed $200) and will be
eligible to enter the drawing for the finalists as described below.

One Semi-Finalist will be selected at random from all the entries
received in Group 3.  This semi-finalist will receive a cash prize
(not to exceed $200) and will be eligible to enter the drawing for
the finalists as described below.

Thirty-four finalists will be drawn from all of the Group 2 and 3
semi-finalists and awarded prizes as follows:

A) Two first place prizes: the opportunity to perform as an extra in
the movie Battlefield Earth and receive a free round trip ticket to
the Colorado location courtesy of Frontier Airlines and five days
lodging at Denver's beautiful [they said this before; I wonder if
"beautiful" is part of the joint's name? :-)] 19th Place Hotel.

B) One second place prize: A trip for two to the movie's Colorado
location and dinner with the movie's Producer. [They have GOT to be
kidding... "Producer" was even capitalized in the original... Let me
guess -- third prize is *two* meals with the Producer...:-)] [I just
noticed -- just a trip *to* the location; you probably have to get
back on your own! If they *meant* "round-trip", they would have said
that! Jeez!]

C) Two third place prizes: A 22 carat gold nugget as featured in
"The Banker" from the Battlefield Earth Album. [What? Does "Album"
here mean there was a record album, too? This is sounding weirder
and weirder...]

D) Three fourth place prizes: A trip by limousine to a movie of the
winner's choice playing in the winner's city, not to exceed $150 in
value. (If no limousine service available in the winner's city, a
cash prize of $150 to be awarded instead.)

E) Ten fifth place prizes: Collector's sets of Battlefield Earth
products (comprising one first edition hardback copy of Battlefield
Earth, one B.E. Album, one B.E. Cassette, one B.E. T-shirt, and one
1985 B.E. Calendar).

F) Ten sixth place prizes: A 1985 Battlefield Earth Calendar and one
paperback edition of Battlefield Earht.

G) All remaining semi-finalists will receive a collectors
Battlefield Earth T-Shirt.

[Note -- they have conveniently neglected to mention that all
winners also get brainwashed by the Scientologists, who have to be
running this thing... :-)]

One of the fine print rules says "The sponsors reserve the right to
omit the characters portrayed by the winners from the final edit of
the movie and also reserve the right to substitute a paid five day
vacation in Las Vegas (with a value not to exceed $1000) for the
first and second place prizes in the event the movie is not produced
in 1985 for any reason or in case it becomes logistically
impractical to transport the winner to the filming location."
[Interesting...]

The address to write for info is: Battlefield Earth Movie Contest
                         1414 North Catalina St. LA, CA  90027
***End of quotes from contest form***

This has to be one of the weirdest contests I ever heard of... Not
only are the prizes extremely odd, but the winner-selection process
actively discriminates in favor of residents of the "Group 1" seven
major metropolitan areas (which happen to be LA, Chicago, NY,
Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and "DC/Baltimore" [as they put
it]). Doesn't that violate a Federal law or FTC or FCC regulation?

Note that they continually refer to the movie's "Colorado location",
but never define it better -- it must be near Denver (and the
"beautiful 19th Place Hotel :-); maybe all this info can help the
movie mavens on the net to track down more data about this otherwise
mysterious movie.

Note to the ARPA SF-Lovers moderator -- since all this contest info
is outdated, and the contest is over, it should be safe to post this
on the ARPANET.

[I can't believe I typed in all this stuff...]

Regards,
Will Martin

UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 85 22:03:11 EDT
From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE
Subject: The Final Countdown (time-travel on TV)

Next thursday at 8:00, ABC will be broadcasting a movie called THE
FINAL COUNTDOWN.  It's (nano-review, no spoilers) about a heavily
armored aircraft carrier which slips through some sort of wormhole
and finds itself off the coast of Hawaii in 1941, just before the
attack on pearl harbor.  The crew has a very difficult time deciding
whether to interfere with history or let things progress naturally.
Though it doesn't really explain how they got there or how such
paradoxes are possible, it's a very good movie.  Just thought you'd
want to know...
                                -- Jamie [jwz@cmu-cs-spice]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Aug 85 0902-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #340
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 340

Today's Topics:

           Books - Robinson & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Yates &
                   Research Alpha,
           Films - Bladerunner & Buckaroo Banzai &
                   Battlefield Earth,
           Music -  Rhiannon,
           Miscellaneous - Critics (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Spider Robinson.
Date: 21 Aug 85 14:38:02 GMT

The only thing I don't like about Spider Robinson is that he doesn't
realise he's a better writer than Heinlein. Probably better than RAH
ever was, certainly better than what Heinlein's putting out now.

Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 23 Aug 85 11:15:17 GMT

>Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the
>dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and
>rhyming.

Don't let them hear you call their names silly!

But Dain (no, no relation to the one of the Iron Hills) tells me
that the alliteration and rhyming was purposeful.  Listen again to
some of their speech; while harsh, it has a certain beauty as well.

Some of my best friends are Dwarves,

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@maryland

------------------------------

From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 23 Aug 85 15:28:28 GMT

> There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda"
> (Translated from Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in
> the 13th century) and minding my own business, when I ran across
> the following section, where Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's
> Vision:

        ...here followed a list of Dwarf names, many identical or
        very similar to the names Tolkien used for his dwarves.

For those interested in etymology, Lin Carter wrote a pretty
interesting book about the Lord of the Rings trilogy; don't quote
me, but I think the title was "Tolkien: Behind LOTR," or something
like that.  There is a chapter devoted entirely to names and where
JRR got them (including the dwarf names mentioned in the referenced
article above...) and one on great swords, etc.  There's probably
some stuff on heroic fantasy in general, and how it relates to the
classic epics, but it's been seven or eight years since I read the
book.  No guarantees that it's still in print.  I don't recall
seeing it in stores lately.

Lewis Barnett,
CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712
barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP,
   {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett

------------------------------

From: SCIRTP!scott@topaz.arpa (Scott Crenshaw)
Subject: Re: DIASPORAH by W. R. Yates
Date: 22 Aug 85 19:17:06 GMT

>    - An agent is supposed to pass himself off as Jewish, but isn't
>      briefed on the laws of kasruth (kosher).

      This isn't so unbelievable. About ten years ago, some Mossad
(Israeli secret service) agents tried to pass themselves off as
Satmar hassidim. They dressed in the traditional clothing of
hassidim, but were so obviously ignorant of law,custom and traditon
that it was obvious they weren't religious, much less hassidim.
      Considering the ignorance of many contemporary Jews wrt.
Jewish law, this agent who tries to pass himself off as Jewish
doesn't seem farfetched. ...

(Scott Crenshaw @ SCI Systems , Inc.)
{akgua,decvax}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!scott

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 85 10:04:19 PDT (Friday)
From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Research Alpha by A. E. van Vogt & James Schmitz

     In nebulas.txt from Rutgers there is mention of a story
"Research Alpha" by A. E. van Vogt & James Schmitz.  Does anyone
know where the story appeared?  Also did any of James Schmitz's
stories on Telzy appear outside of Analog?
     Thanks.

     Henry III

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jon)
Subject: RE: Bladerunner Soundtrack?
Date: 23 Aug 85 00:58:12 GMT

Well, I've gotten a few replies so far, and this one sums it up...

>The original soundtrack was played on electronic instruments (a
>synthesizer?).  The "soundtrack album" was re-orchestrated for a
>normal orchestra.  The "tune" is the same, but it doesn't sound the
>same.  Unfortunately, it's all that's available.  (If it's any
>consolation, it's usually considerably cheaper than most soundtrack
>albums,probably because it isn't really an original soundtrack
>album.)
>                                       Evelyn C. Leeper
>                                       ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

Pity.  I guess, I'll have to watch the movie to hear the REAL music.
Thanks for those who gave the info, though.

                                    Jonathan D. Trudel
                                 arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa
                         uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Banzai Newsletter has happened!
Date: 19 Aug 85 04:09:57 GMT

We had a newsletter-stuffing party at the Banzai Institute yesterday
(17 Aug), and those of you who have joined the Blue Blaze Irregulars
will be getting them soon.  12 pages of information on Buckaroo
Banzai's doings and the work of the Institute.

If you want a copy, send a letter to

        The Banzai Institute
        West Coast Offices
        20th Century Fox
        P.O. Box 900
        Beverly Hills, CA 90213

Every letter they receive is (in effect) a vote for "Buckaroo Banzai
against the World Crime League", so write in and get your goodies
...  and do the world a favor!

        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" movie
Date: 23 Aug 85 12:23:49 GMT

>C) Two third place prizes: A 22 carat gold nugget as featured in
>"The Banker" from the Battlefield Earth Album. [What? Does "Album"
>here mean there was a record album, too? This is sounding weirder
>and weirder...]

As a matter of fact, there was a record album.  I saw this on the
stands about four months after the paperback came out.  I didn't
risk buying it, however (it went for $9.98!).  And it didn't stay on
the racks very long, though I doubt that that was because the thing
sold like hot-cakes (or even cold-cakes).  Did anyone ever actually
HEAR this thing?
                                the Shadow
                                ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                                UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

From: x!wjr@topaz.arpa (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: SF in music (Stevie Nicks)
Date: 22 Aug 85 22:32:10 GMT

boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh
>myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about such.

   I more or less agree that the lyrics of the song aren't obviously
about witchcraft I remember seeing the group performing on one of
the old music shows (remember Midnight Special, et al) and Nicks
introduced the song with "This is a song about a witch."

William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701
Tel: (617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.arpa
Subject: Re:  Art vs. Good Reads
Date: 20 Aug 85 20:41:00 GMT

(Somewhat Lengthy Mild Flame)

Some of the intemperate postings regarding Art vs. A Good Read are
ridiculous.

The two have little to do with each other; a book that is good "art"
may be a lousy "read" and vice-versa.  Both are subjective
judgements based on (usually) different sets of criteria.

For me, a good read is defined as being accessible and interesting
(plot, ideas, and/or characters).

Art, on the other hand, has a set of generally accepted (but
arguable and certainly not universally :-) accepted criteria that
include something like:

- Form of the work

- Resonances between the work and the culture and other works of
  literature (Whatzza matter, don't believe the humanities have
  their own valid recursive logics?)

- Texture and style of writing

- Artistic composition of plot and characterization

- Etc.

        I'm winging the definitions -- I'm not really into the
literary criticism game -- but to deny that valid esthetic criteria
(albeit qualitative, not quantititative) exist for Art is as simple
minded as denials of mathematics, nuclear physics, or any other
complex reality that requires education and insight to understand.
(Oh, but Art doesn't have numbers?  Well you can't use numbers to
meaningfully distinguish a schmuck from a saint, but they both exist
-- even if we don't have perfect agreement on who is who.)

        Ergo, the works of Larry Niven are great reads, I enjoy them
immensely.  But great Art?

        James Joyce and Thomas Pynchon have written great Art -- I
also enjoy them -- when i *think* i understand what is going on --
but they are easy reads for nobody I know.  (I have to admit, I
prefer Art that is more accessible, but just because it's
difficult/complex doesn't mean it's pointless, pompous, or anything
else.)

        Part of the problem about discussing Art in SF is that very
little great Art has been written.  Close shots in my book include
Canticle for Liebowitz, The Left Hand of Darkness, and....um, let me
see, oh, maybe Lord of Light, but that's a sentimental favorite of
mine that probably really falls short....  Some great short stories,
too.

        SF has produced many more memorable *good* books, everything
from Startide Rising, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Neuromancer,
etc., and a considerable number of good reads as well as mounds and
mounds of dreck.  (Sturgeon's Law: 95% of everything is crud.
Except fantasy, which I also enjoy, it's 98%).

        As noted previously on this net, part of the problem about
perceptions of Art in SF stem from the fact that most SF criticism
is either hopelessly academic (for useless M.A.'s in Lit.),
incestuous (you wash my back and I'll wash yours), uselessly
destructive, or (most often) uninformed and uncritical --
everything's great, there are no standards.

("If everybody is somebody, then nobody is anybody." Gilbert &
Sullivan.)

        In summary, it seems to me that to either make Art the
litmus test for evaluating SF, or alternately, kicking Art in the
balls as being humbug, get in the way of having one's mind open to
the ideas and entertainment that SF can bring.

(Sorry for getting carried away on a ramble on my introduction to
the net.  I've been reading the net for 2 months -- nobody had told
me about the net for the preceding 18 mos.  Will try for more
brevity next time.

from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet
UUCP:    jimb at CCA/IMA        (I'm told this works)
usenet:    !decvax!cca!ima!jimb   (maybe this works)
ARPA:    ima!jimb@CCA-UNIX.ARPA (maybe this works)

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 23 Aug 1985 05:42:01-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Anti-Art Snobbery

> From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson)
> I will say, though, that I have never heard it described with
> anything less than respectful awe.  It won the Nebula Award, which
> is given by the Science Fiction Writers of America to the work
> which the *writers* feel is the best piece of literature published
> in the past year (and it won the Nebula back in the days when the
> award did mean something).  I think that anybody who says that
> DHALGREN is a poorly written, plotless piece of trash should maybe
> ask themselves if there is even the remotest chance they might be
> MISSING something?

Would it be presumptuous of me to ask what Alternate Earth you're
from?  In *this* universe, DHALGREN lost the Nebula to Joe
Haldeman's THE FOREVER WAR. Delany won a sum total of four (4)
Nebulas out of the 80 or so that have been issued. He must be highly
thought of in SFWA, eh?  At last reckoning, the writers who've
garnered the most awards (Nebula and Hugo combined) are Harlan
Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Poul Anderson, and Fritz Leiber. What does
that tell you?

And what does "when the award did mean something" mean? Doesn't it
mean anything anymore? Is it no longer an award chosen by sf writers
for the what they feel is "best piece of literature in the past
year"? Or is it that they aren't choosing what *you* think is the
best? And does their being writers mean that their opinions are
worth more than mine? If so, then their opinions are worth more than
your's, too, which means that if you don't like their choices, it
must be *your* opinion that's wrong.

I never got very far into DHALGREN, myself. I thought it was
twaddle.  So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact
that I liked BABEL-17, EMPIRE STAR, THE BALLAD OF BETA-2, THE
EINSTEIN INTERSECTION, and NOVA? (No, I didn't like TRITON, either.)

There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought up
yet.  The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can dislike
a Work of Art without being branded as an anti-intellectual fool. If
someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply look
down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing
something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see why
it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs that
someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid reasons*. The
only way someone can get away with not liking a Work of Art is to
say "It was an interesting experiment that failed" rather than "It
was a piece of self-indulgent nonsense". The end result is that no
one is willing to tell the Emperor about his new clothes.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster)
Subject: Re: "Anti-Art" snobbery"
Date: 23 Aug 85 14:41:59 GMT

kanders@lll-tis-a writes:
>Hooray for Davis Tucker finally taking to task those people who
>practice "Anti-art" snobbery -- those who snort with derision at
>something which requires you to turn on a 5 Watt bulb over your
>head and use a few brain cells.  Perhaps this category includes
>those people flaming at "awful" DHALGREN ("Gawd, this stuff makes
>me *think* -- yukk, give me Edgar Rice Burroughs anyday!").

   I think you may be missing the point.  Seems to me that people
are reacting to the "art snobbery" of Tucker, rather than promoting
"anti-art."  I stopped reading the Problems postings after they
turned from intelligently and carefully thought-out criticism to
random name-calling and self-aggrandizing bleating (somewhere around
part II).  I happened to have enjoyed Dahlgren *and* several Lord of
the Rings clones ('though I draw the line at Burroughs :-), and I
suspect that the vast majority of SF-Lovers readers, if not SF
lovers in general, are equally omnivorous.

>Too many ray guns, rocketships, and bug-eyed monsters makes me
>afraid my brain will atrophy!

   Perhaps, but we have a shining example of what happens to those
who read only so-called "artistic" literature.

 - joel "vo" plutchak
{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster

P.S. My preferred method of dealing with Tuckeresque postings is to
'n' past the original posting and linger over the inevitable flames.
But then again, I only do it that way for my own enjoyment, so it's
not an artistically valid thing to do.  God, how I wish Art ruled my
universe! <mirthful sarcasm>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Aug 85 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #341
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 341

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cherryh & Moorcock & Niven &
                        Robinson & Sheffield,
                Films - Return of the Dead,
                Miscellaneous - Star Wars (2 msgs) & Critics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive.
Date: 21 Aug 85 12:57:24 GMT

>That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would
>undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology would
>be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of their
>advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be required.
>
>Does anyone know of any Sci-fi that deals with this issue?
>
>Oh well enough for now. I would be interested in titles/authors
>that have tried to approach the issue of cultural interaction
>between very different cultures.

CJ Cherryh has some books dealing with this sort of thing, the FADED
SUN trilogy deals with three very different races trying to interact
after the end of a generations-old war.  In the Chanur books, the
hani are still dealing with the after effects of being turned into a
space-faring race in a generation.  This is brought out a little
more in the most recent book, CHANUR'S VENTURE.  One of my favorites
is HUNTER OF WORLDS; it's about a race that barges into human space
in order to settle an old score, using humans (and other beings) as
pawns in their game.
                                the Shadow
                                ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                                UUCP:   {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE DREAMING CITY / ELRIC
Date: 24 Aug 85 00:53:48 GMT

               THE DREAMING CITY by Michael Moorcock
                           Lancer, ?, ?.
             ELRIC by Michael Gilbert and Craig Russell
             Pacific Comics, Issues 1 through 4, 1983.
                     A review by Mark R. Leeper

     Capsule review: A fairly simple little novel makes a very good
comic book by changing very little in the transition.  One can
expect more from a novel and rarely gets more from a comic book.

     A good while ago there was a small version of Mark Leeper who
was a big fan of comic books.  Then when I hit the ripe old age of
twelve I gave away a collection which, if sold today, could pay off
a nice piece of my mortgage.  (As usual for such stories, there was
a mother involved in the premature liquidation.)  Then I did not
read more than a comic book a year until relatively recently.  What
I did read convinced me that comics were maturing a little but were
still silly and banal.  Recently a friend who is a big comic fan got
me reading a few.  My conclusion is that my distaste for
super-heroes rules out the vast majority of comics sold.  At some
point, I will probably write a general article about my conclusions
about comic books.

     A little more specifically, however, while I was gone on a
recent trip Evelyn bought me the first four issues of a 1983 series
published by Pacific Comics, ELRIC.  This series is an adaptation
from the novel THE DREAMING CITY by Michael Moorcock.  I read the
comics and the novel almost in parallel.  My conclusions?  It is far
better to read the two in parallel than to read either by itself.

     Moorcock's writing style is ideal for adapting as a comic book.
THE DREAMING CITY tells one story, I suppose, but even more so it is
a string of short stories, not unlike THE ODYSSEY.  None of the
stories is particularly good by itself though.  The whole of the
book is much greater than the sum of its parts in that it makes a
reasonably good story taken as one long adventure with a number of
interesting ideas and sequences.  This stringing-together of
sequences, incidentally, is why it adapts so well as a comic book.
Each sequence is about the right length to base a 28-page comic book
on.  And the comic books cut out some of the verbiage but very
little of the story or its ideas.  THE DREAMING CITY is far better
adapted as a comic book than it could ever be as a film.

     Moorcock has a really good imagination when it comes to visual
images, but I doubt that they would have come across as well without
some of the stylized artwork of the comic book.  Michael Gilbert and
Craig Russell (the artists) have a style that is a little hard to
get used to, but once you do it is quite imaginative.  In some ways
it is reminiscent of the work of Aubrey Beardsley.  Sometimes it is
simple; other times it is out-and-out florid.  Reading the book I
might have noted quickly in passing the description of characters
like Dr. Jest, but the comic's pinched depiction is constantly
carried along with the character in the comic in a way that would
have been impossible in the book.

     THE DREAMING CITY is not a very complex book.  Yes, it is a
little more complex than a Conan story.  Elric does go on a search
to find his own identity; I doubt Conan ever would.  But just in
case you missed that aspect of the character, Moorcock has Elric say
things like, "I feel that [this] happiness cannot last unless we
know what we are."  The book has some subtlety, but little
profundity.  It was made to be a comic book and Moorcock is probably
lucky that it was adapted as well as it was.

     Rate the book a 0 and the comic book adaptation a +2 (due in
part to low expectations) on the -4 to +4 scale.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 85 13:03:13 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: Protectors
From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

        Evolution or the protectors probably did for the
Tree-of-Life virus in Homes' atmosphere.  Of course, it is probably
a government cover-up, .  Also, there would be no hosts if all the
humans died, and it didn't adapt to other forms of life.

        The time between Brennen and Wu is 500 years, according to
Niven.  There is a time-line in "Tales of Known Space".  Enough time
for Truesdale & co. to finish off the Pak, but still be heading in
towards to core to find out what was going on.  Remember they know
of no FTL drive.  Could they have turned any of the Pak ? No.  As
soon as the Pak saw a respectable fleet leaving Home, they would
have scattered all over.  T&Co. must have devised a better drive &
better weapons while on Home.  There is a Niven short story called
"The Warriors" which describes the first meeting of Humans and
Kzinti.  The Kzinti had a 'gravity' drive, while the human ship was
driven by a photonic drive.  A gravity drive would be the logical
next step, for the protectors.  With a better drive, and weapons,
the Pak are exterminated, and Truesdale comes back to the Solar
system, or does he continue towards the core?  They split forces, no
doubt.  Most of the Protectors die off, or go exploring if they can
except the human race as a whole as descendents.

        So we have a godfather or ten again.

        Did humanity win the Kzinti wars because of protector help?
        Yes!

        The RingWorld....built by who?

        The portion so far explored is enhabited by mutated Pak
forms.  250K Years may be enough for that.  Why intelligence in so
many forms?  Earth had roughly the same conditions, and more
competition.

        Are human protectors, other than Teela present? Probably.
City builders, etc, would have converted over.  Why so many
intelligent forms?  Why so few on earth?  Is it just a question of
space?

        The human protectors have heard about Ringworld through
their contacts in human government (Halrloprillalars' longevity drug
was stolen while in government hands!) and mounted an expedition.
What would they be doing now?

        Teela Browns LUCK prevented her from acting in true
protector fashion.
        She simply made room for the inhabitants of Known Space in
the fall out shelter.  By drastic means, true.

        Niven can write a few books about what ELSE lives on the
Ringworld!  What is going on in the other Mars?  How about a
tree-of-life that is compatable with boosterspice?

        I think that most of the human protectors of Louis Wus' day
are exploring the ringworld.

        Clark H.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 85 17:50 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Spider Robinson and Good Literature

Okay, I'm behind in my net reading here, and something tells me that
better folks than I have flamed you for your editorializing, but I
am in the midst of reading Calahan's CrossTIme Saloon for the first
time and I feel that IT demands that I reply.

True, the book is not as DEEP as The Brothers Karamozof, it is not
as 'literate' as The Seven Pillars of Wisdom, it is not as LONG as
War and Peace, and it is not even as verbose as Donaldson.  True, it
is small an thin, and paperback and has neat pictures on the cover.
True, it is self-indulgent (somebody had to like the puns that went
in there).  And, true, it is (noses up, sniff please) Science
Fiction-- which everybody who is anybody knows is never rahlly Good
Literature . . .

                          >>>>  BUT <<<<

This does not mean, never has, and I pray, never will, that it
cannot contain some TRUTH.  Robinson portrays real human characters
with real human problems who get through life because in some little
corner of the galaxy there are a few other real human (and maybe
other) characters who are willing to help, sympathize, relate and
LISTEN to their problems.  Robinson speaks to 'The Human Condition'
in a voice every bit as real as any of the other greats you have
listed.

I worry about the type of person-- all too well represented among
the cognoscenti of this and every other age-- who fails to see
wisdom, beauty, and TRUTH in simplicity.  One can like or dislike
Robinson's style.  One can even agree or disagree with my assesment
of him here, but find it the highest form of intellectual hypocrisy
to write him off because he isn't taught in college English courses.
It's at least as bad as writing off 'Great Art' because it IS taught
in college English classes.

Great Literature encapsulizes Truth.  Therefore, Truth is where YOU
find it.  Not where somebody-- no matter how many degrees he or she
may have; no matter how many other somebodies may agree-- tells you
it is.

Chris Miller  B.A. (soon to be) Ph. D.
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

P.S.  By the way, in case it isn't clear, I agree that shunning art
because it is art is barbaric and phillistine.  Just don't take the
attitude too far.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 85 12:39:58 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT by Charles Sheffield

After due consideration, I decided that there was nothing I needed
to quote to respond.  Sheffield is one of the (few) writers I see no
need to defend, although I think I could do a reasonable job.  I
read this when it was serialized in Analog.  It is my considered
opinion that:
  a.  Sheffield is trying something new.

  b.  This is merely giving his readers the "bare bones"
      on which he intends to construct a whole series of
      future stories, in much the same way as we have
      MacWhozis and the spaceship pilot stories.

As a fan of Sheffield, I am willing to wait and see whether he
fleshes these bones.  Others need not do so if they do not choose.
It takes all kinds.  You pays your money, and takes your cherce.
                                   Patiently,
                                   Paula

------------------------------

Date: Sat 24 Aug 85 00:01:32-PDT
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: (brief) movie review

I walked out on the new "Return of the Living Dead."

It is garbage. Dan O'Bannon's script-writing, which I detested in
Dark Star, is still detestable even now.  How he gets funding for
these farces is beyond me.

About the only thing that was good in the period of time I stayed
with the movie was the sight of a beautiful young woman dancing
totally nude.

Even that bit of spice couldn't hold me there to try and stomach the
rest of the movie.

URK!
        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 85 03:22:34 PDT
From: lah%ucbcory@Berkeley (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Ewok Technology...

I'm going to do a bit of research on some relevant topics before I
post, but meanwhile, a thought:

"I would expect a modern army to take at least a day or two to get
it right."

A modern army, yes.  But the modern army is not, for example, the
Roman Legion, and in addition, siege tactics went out with the
English Civil War.  Of course they wouldn't know how to do it!  A
few hints about what I'm going to be looking for:

* anything known about the building of Stonehenge
* anything about siege tactics, specifically how long
  the engines took to build
* various things known about bronze/early iron age
  technology in general, as this is about the level
  of sophistication I would guess the Ewoks to have
  reached.

Give me some time (a week or so, I'm doing my own writing, you
know!) and I'll produce a decent study (in 300 wds or less!).

Regards,
Leigh Ann

PS Yes, I've been promoted, so don't bother writing me about
it...:-)

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops
Date: 23 Aug 85 20:12:55 GMT

As far as the ineffectiveness of the imperial personal armor is
concerned, one need only postulate a recent advance in blaster
technology that renders that armor ineffective, but better armor
hasn't been developed or isn't in general usage, or the regulations
requiring the wearing of said armor haven't been relaxed.  If you
think about it, military history could provide many similar cases,
from ancient times right up to Vietnam.

How long did it take for the Medieval knights to adjust to crossbow,
and the English longbow?  How long did it take infantry tactics to
adjust to the machine gun?

Of course it would be nice to see if the armor works when they get
around to making the earlier stories.

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: "Anti-Art" snobbery"
Date: 23 Aug 85 11:13:43 GMT

> From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson)
> Hooray for Davis Tucker finally taking to task those people who
> practice "Anti-art" snobbery -- those who snort with derision at

Etc., etc....

Science fiction is, as you say, the literature of ideas. Unlike
other forms of literature the background has prominence over the
characters.  Thus it is that very bad works of literature are very
good SF. The occasional exceptional author can produce a book that's
both good SF and "art". It's my opinion, totally unsubstantiated by
statistical analysis of course, that the % of good literature in SF
is probably about the same as in other forms of fiction... it's just
that, since SF has other, orthogonal, standards to meet that may
take precedence over the quality of the writing (look at Robert
Heinlein, even his good stuff), certain books get raved about by the
SF community that the mainstream wouldn't even consider reading.
This gets up the critics nose, since he doesn't realise that there
might be other criteria for judging a work, so he posts abominable
reviews such as the one referenced above.

No, folks, we're not anti-art. We just have other things to look for
than superb characterisation and brilliant prose. If the book has
these as well, great. But it doesn't stand or fall on them.

Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Aug 85 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #342
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 342

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anderson & Forward & Niven (3 msgs) &
                   Robinson & The Twilight Zone & 
                   The Flying Sorceror,
           Films - Title Request,
           Miscellaneous - Critics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 01:15:31 pdt
From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Tolkien's Dwarf Names

Poul Anderson uses the same names (albeit spelled differently) in
"The Broken Sword", a classic about dark elves and cursed blades.

Awhile ago I asked whether anyone has the 1954 edition of TBS and I
still haven't got any responses..  The intro to the 1971 edition
comments on major changes, and I'd really like to know what
happened.
                                      -steve

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 85 13:42:44 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY by Robert Forward

>From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
>This book is no DRAGON'S EGG.  It's readable, but no great shakes.
>. . details, usually based on scientific fact. . .  design of his
>interstellar craft, about the nature of his aliens, the Flouwen,
>and about planetary physics.  He even has a few ideas about
>robotics. . .  He does not have a mechanism for bringing his
>travelers back to Earth. . . his humans don't really have a whole
>lot to live for.

Short of the development or acquisition of an FTL drive, *any*
interstellar voyage will be one-way.  So what?  Where's the ticket
office?!!!

>The limited technology also tends to make the first part of the
>book drag since it would take our humans a while . . .

>It seems unlikely that the Flouwen's environment would challenge
>them sufficiently to have the supremely advanced mathematics that
>Forward claims they have.

Sounds as though there have been additions to the manuscript since
it was serialized in Analog a few years ago.  I enjoyed it then, and
felt that Forward had made considerable improvement over Dragon's
Egg in the matter of narrative flow, and also that his human
characters were more believable.  I found the Flouwen
delightful--alien analogs of dolphins.  And I think that
water-dwellers would NEED to be far better intuitive mathematicians
than we.  If/when we learn to communicate with our own intelligent
water beasts, we may be able to make substantial advances in math in
relatively painless fashion (so long as our hubris doesn't hinder
us).  I thought Rocheworld was a truly marvelous place; one I'd like
to visit (as opposed to the Egg, which would be not only impossible
but also useless due to time-differentials).
                                On behalf of colors,
                                Paula

------------------------------

From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (Cobb)
Subject: Re: Protectors
Date: 23 Aug 85 13:51:43 GMT

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
> 1.  Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would
>     live in a free atmosphere.  This is how Roy Treusdale got
>     turned into a Protector.

I recently reread "Protector" also... and I thought Brennan
developed the variant virus to survive in a human being.  To my way
of thinking, that doesn't necessarily mean it could live in a free
atmosphere.  If this is the case, then I can see the virus
disappearing from Home eventually, thus making it viable for
resettlement.  Agree?  Disagree?

> And did they also remove all trace of their presence ( fake
> cities, etc ) from same ?  I guess they had to have, but this is a
> bit heavy on my suspension of disbelief.

Remember, Pak think big.  They (supposedly) built the Ringworld.
Cleaning up Home would be *peanuts* compared to that, and necessary
if they wanted to keep any true Pak that might escape from the
battle with the Home Pak from eventually getting back to Earth.

> 2.  The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors.  If they
>     hadn't, humans would know.  So what happened to the winners ?
>     Did everybody die ?

"There are some things man was not meant to know." (a quote from
Niven) Maybe they did.  Maybe they didn't, but are out there
building more Ringworlds.  Maybe they tried to go back to the Core
worlds to root out (excuse the pun) the remaining Pak, to eliminate
any further threat to Earth from that source.  Some questions just
never get answered.

On the subject of the vacsuit in the ramship on the spaceport
ledge...  I don't know.  I'll think on it.

B.K.Cobb
ihnp4!ihuxi!okie

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Protectors go Home
Date: 23 Aug 85 04:00:00 GMT

I suspect the only conclusion one can draw is that the Human
protectors died off or went away.  After all, the Pak were the most
detirmined, intelligent and powerful race around, and human
protectors were even smarter.  We're talking about guys who could
spit in a Thrint's face and turn a Pupeteer world upside down.

So would they stand for the Pupeteer experiments on mankind?  The
wars with Kzin?  The botchup job repairing the Ringworld?  No
chance.  If they were around, they would be interested and involved,
even if secretly.

So perhaps they're all at the centre of the Galaxy, STOPPING the
core from exploding?

Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

From: utai!wjr@topaz.arpa (William Rucklidge)
Subject: Re: protectors
Date: 15 Aug 85 19:37:02 GMT

> Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a
> protector in "Down in Flames"?  DIF takes place about the same
> time as The Ringworld Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over
> 200 years old.  Beowulf is Louis's stepfather, so he is closer to
> 300...way WAY past the maximum age to become a protector!  Ideas?
>                   marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

Well, as I remember (it's been a while) nowhere in the Known Space
history has someone who is on boosterspice eaten tree-of-life root.
Seeker did when he and Teela found Mars, but he was not on
boosterspice, but the Ringworld immortality drug, which is based on
tree-of-life. So, it is not ruled out that someone who is
chronologically older than the cutoff but who is on boosterspice so
that their physical age is about right will die from eating
tree-of-life root. Beowulf should have no problems...

William Rucklidge                       University of Toronto
UUCP    {ihnp4  utzoo   decwrl  uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr
CSNet   wjr@toronto             BITNET  wjr at utoronto

------------------------------

Subject: re: Robinson
Date: 24 Aug 85 18:28:29 PDT (Sat)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        NO, no, you misunderstand.  When I stated that Robinson
doesn't write 'five-guys-etc' stories, I was responding to a certain
person's rag on these stories as 'garbage'.  Of course Spider writes
Callahan's Bar stories.  My point was that the label 'FGIABetc' was
insufficient as a description.  Perhaps we should begin using the
suggested method of inserting facial expressions as comments
<smile>.  This would cause less confusion over all < cough, gag >.
        And, in my opinion, not all the Callahan stories are simple
entertainment either.  'The Time Traveler' from Crosstime Saloon,
and that story whose title I can't remember ( it starred Pyotr and
the Lady MacBeth ) were real real good stuff.  I'm a bit of a music
person myself, and when Jake described the event that led into the
story itself, I cried.
        Hey, so how do you spell a <tongue sticking out><cheeks
blowing> raspberry ?
                        Dave

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE TWILIGHT ZONE: THE ORIGINAL STORIES
Date: 24 Aug 85 00:57:32 GMT

                TWILIGHT ZONE: THE ORIGINAL STORIES
                edited by Martin H. Greenberg et al
                             Avon, 1985
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Rod Serling had an eye for a good short fantasy story.  He had
to.  Week after week he had to tell the American public a good
story, and he usually succeeded.  THE TWILIGHT ZONE was a showcase
for the best science fiction and fantasy writers of the previous
decades.  Writers like Richard Matheson, Charles Beaumont, Jerome
Bixby, Damon Knight, and Ray Bradbury were the sources for the
better segments of THE TWILIGHT ZONE.  Thirty of these source
stories have been collected by Martin Greenberg, Richard Matheson,
and Charles Waugh.  It seems a bit self-serving that eight of the
stories and the introduction are by Matheson, but then perhaps
second only to Serling himself, Richard Matheson was the strongest
creative influence on the better seasons of the series.  The
selected stories are spotty and a little uneven.  On one hand,
Bixby's "It's a Good Life" is a very fine story and it is my choice
for the best episode of the series.  Then there's the over-rated "To
Serve Man."  I was eleven when I saw it and even then I knew the
ending didn't make sense.  Matheson's "Steel" is a bitter mood piece
which echoes Serling's REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT.  Matheson's
"Little Girl Lost" deftly combines science fiction and horror.
These are all stories from more memorable segments and now it is
pretty tough to read them without picturing the TV version.  At
thirty cents a piece in paperback they are an expensive souvenir of
the series, but it is a collection that has been needed for years.

                                   Mark R. Leeper
                                   ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: CJC@psuvm.BITNET
Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive.
Date: 24 Aug 85 02:25:50 GMT

"The Flying Sorcerers" by David Gerrold & Larry Niven is a very
thorough account of what happened when one enthusiastic Terran
anthropologist went to a rather harsh world with a strong-minded and
intelligent, but technologically primitive race.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 03:53:30 PDT
From: Kevin Carosso <engvax!KVC@cit-vax>
Subject: Unknown Stupidity....

Name that TURKEY...

As I'm writing this, I'm watching some random late night flick and
wondering what it could possibly be.  It's a REALLY BAD early sf
flick.  Black and white.  Story seems to be emminent doctor designs
spaceship (called the RMX).  Spaceship departs with 6 or so
crew-members, one of whom is the standard "lovely but cold female
scientist" stereotype.  They land somewhere (the moon, I think) and
find humanoid civilization that has nuked themselves back into the
stone-age some time ago.  Barbarians kill 3 or 4 disposable
crew-members and the rest escape and head back to earth, only to run
out of fuel and make a melodramatic, if somewhat meteoric, impact on
Novia Scotia.  Oh yeah, almost forgot -- female scientist thaws out
as they reenter...

    "Oh (sob) hold me"............................(SPLAT)

yuck...

Effects were awful.  Lotsa footage of old V2 test flights.  They
wander around the moon (or whatever) wearing WWII gas masks, for
Christ's sake!  A "meteorite" storm that has to be seen to be
(dis)believed.  Worst dialogue I've heard in a LONG time, too...
Oh, also, I'm SURE I saw a young version of Jim Rockford's dad
(Rocky) in the crew of of the RMX. (yeah I'm a Rockford fan)

So, as I'm lacking a TV guide, can anyone pin a title on this
turkey?

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Anti-Art Snobbery
Date: 24 Aug 85 19:25:01 GMT

>From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>In *this* universe, DHALGREN lost the Nebula ...  Delany won a sum
>total of four (4) Nebulas ...  He must be highly thought of in
>SFWA, eh?  At last reckoning, the writers who've garnered the most
>awards ... are ... [list] What does that tell you?

What is it supposed to tell him? For that matter, what is it
supposed to tell the rest of us?

>I never got very far into DHALGREN, myself. I thought it was
>twaddle.  So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact
>that I liked ... [list of Delany's other works]

If feeling like a persecuted 'anti-Art snob' is enjoyable, be our
guest. But don't you think this is just a little bit paranoid,
Jerry?

>There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought up
>yet.  The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can dislike
>a Work of Art without being branded as an anti-intellectual fool.

WHO sez 'the Art snobbery' (whatever that's supposed to be) has
always been such? The endless stream of fantasies about how
imaginary Critics are hounding the members of this group and the SF
world in general is starting to get a little old, people. OK, Jerry,
I'm calling you on this one: who exactly in this group or outside it
has said that anyone who dislikes a Work of Art is an
anti-intellectual fool? I can't recall even Davis Tucker going this
far. If you knew anything at all about the Wonderful World of
Criticism, you'd know that Critics disagree about which books are
worth reading. Often and loudly.

>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply look
>down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing
>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see why
>it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs that
>someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid reasons*.

Pure pony diarrhea. You want us to say maybe, "OK, Jerry, you say
Dhalgren is twaddle, so it must be twaddle; after all, you're NOT a
critic?" Saying you don't like it/couldn't get into it so there
mustn't be anything there is hardly valid criticism. Fact is, a lot
of people LIKE Dhalgren and find it a challenging and rewarding
work. If you have valid reasons for thinking that these people are
all Art Snobs who like Dhalgren only because some mysterious
conspiracy of Critics told them they should, please let us know
about it. I've never gotten into Ezra Pounds "Cantos" because I find
them rough going and more than a little self-indulgent.  But I'm
also secure enough to recognize that some people have put a lot of
work into reading the "Cantos" and are deeply rewarded for their
efforts. It's just not my cup of tea. Why do you and some of your
cohorts of a similar mind in this group refuse to grant us "Art
Snobs" a similar courtesy?

>The only way someone can get away with not liking a Work of Art is
>to say "It was an interesting experiment that failed" rather than
>"It was a piece of self-indulgent nonsense". The end result is that
>no one is willing to tell the Emperor about his new clothes.

Either statement implies failure. The difference is that the first
is sympathetic to the effort of an author to produce an intricate
and serious work (800+ pages in the case of "Dhalgren"), and the
second is hostile to the author's having missed the mark. Who's
calling who a fool, Jerry?

Anyone who's made a serious effort to write something other than a
posting to the net knows what an intellectual and emotional drain
the production of fiction can be. It means a refusal to compromise
and a constant effort to be completely honest with oneself. The
author must be his own severest critic if he's to produce the best
work he's capable of. The effort and love that went into the writing
of "Dhalgren" is obvious. If you think Delany failed, at least give
the poor slob a little sympathy for having tried his best. It's
obviously not a piece of hack work.

Making a decision to devote your life to the arts is a lot like
becoming a tightrope walker. You study theory and you practice. But
one day you're going to have to face the wire alone, and know that
below you in the darkness the audience is waiting for you to stumble
and fall. Most turn back before that point. Those that make the
difficult decision are to be admired for their determination and
courage, even if they fail to make it to the other side.

                         -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Aug 85 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #343
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 28 Aug 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 343

Today's Topics:

            Books - Hubbard (2 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) &
                    Salmonson,
            Miscellaneous - Storm Troopers (3 msgs) &
                    Critics & Aliens (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: whuxlm!wws@topaz.arpa (Stoll W William)
Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" movie
Date: 25 Aug 85 22:20:27 GMT

> As a matter of fact, there was a record album.  I saw this on the
> stands about four months after the paperback came out.  I didn't
> risk buying it, however (it went for $9.98!).  And it didn't stay
> on the racks very long, though I doubt that that was because the
> thing sold like hot-cakes (or even cold-cakes).  Did anyone ever
> actually HEAR this thing?

I bought it, and it is really awful.  Nice conversation piece, but
that's it.  If there's a movie, you can bet that this will NOT be
used in the soundtrack!

Bill Stoll, ..!whuxlm!wws

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 85 09:36:00 PDT
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Battlefield Earth ---

The "Brainwashed by the Scientologists" comment in the msg. about
the (admittedly bizarre) Battlefield Earth contest may-or-may-not be
justified....  I honestly don't know if the L. Ron Hubbard that
writes science fiction is the same one that wrote the scientology
book.  I brought this up to a friend of mine once, and he seemed
convinced that they were not the same person (I remain
unconvinced....that is a fairly unique name....).  Does anyone know
the truth on this one?

Anyway....I read the book, and it was actually a very good book (In
my own opinion...), and I didn't see much brainwashing in it...it
seemed like good, old-fashioned, science fiction.  (Although I could
have been caught by the brain washing, and therefore would not be
qualified to make such a statement.)

I don't think that it is fair to accuse someone's writing of
containing brainwashing just on the basis of their beliefs.  Some of
their ideas may get through......but has any of the soviet fiction
you've read made you want to go out and vote communist?  Keep your
remarks onto a more facual level (hmmm....we are discussing fiction,
though....) when you are impugning someone's ethics.

                                -Richard Hartman
                                max.hartman@ames-vmsb

NOTE: I DO think that that contest sounded a bit bizarre....I just
      don't think that the author or the producers of this (alleged)
      movie deserved that particular comment.....sounds a bit too
      much like predjudice &/or outright bigotry.....I like to
      judge people by their actions...not some label that someone
      places on them.....but that is another rave, for another time
      and place.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 03:53:30 PDT
From: Kevin Carosso <engvax!KVC@cit-vax>
Subject: Known space

I was wondering if someone out there would be kind enough to post a
complete list of Known Space books.  I've read a lot of it, and
liked it, but have never been sure if I've read everything Niven
wrote in Known Space.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 11:43:13 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Still more on Protectors

 *** WARNING -- CONTAINS MILD SPOILERS OF "RINGWORLD ENGINEERS" ***

I think it is wrong to assume that protectors would automatically
try to kill any other intelligent species they encountered.  Recall
that the protectors who built the Ringworld included planetary
"maps" of Earth, Mars, Down, Kzin, etc., stocked with natives of
same; the protectors knew about them, but let them live.  This leads
to a couple of other interesting points:

1. The "map" of Earth continued only non-human primates; thus,
   Ringworld was built *before* the Pak colony reached Earth.

2. The "map" of Down contained Grogs; thus, the protectors could
   handle Grogs!

It is true that Jack Brennan killed all the Martians, but remember,
they tried to kill him first!

                         marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 13:59:43 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Niven's Known space:  hyperdrive for sale

> From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
> that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster
> than the speed of light yet.

> From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva)
> before the Puppeteers sold the Hyperdrive to Homo Sap...

Whoa!  Let's get our facts straight.  The Outsiders sold the secret
of hyperdrive to Homo Sapiens.  The Puppeteers did have something to
do with it (read "Ringworld"), but the actual sale took place
between Man and the Outsiders.

                  ******  SPOILER WARNING!  ******

But now that I think about it, it seems that the ending of "A Gift
from Earth" is inconsistent with "Ringworld".  In "Ringworld", we
are led to believe that the Puppeteers used a Starseed lure to force
a meeting between the Outsiders and Man, knowing that Man would buy
the FTL drive and then win the Man-Kzin war.  But, at the end of "A
Gift from Earth", the outsiders pick up the trail of a ramscoop
robot and compute its destination (or was it source?) and say to
themselves, "Ahhh, new customers".  Oops!

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 85 09:31 EDT
From: ------ Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: Jessica Amanda Salmonson

A word of enthusiasm for Jessica Amanda Salmonson, her excellent
anthologies, and the Tomoe Gozen saga.  First, Tomoe Gozen is not
just an invention of the author, she is a figure from Japanese
legend and mythology finely drawn and interpreted by Ms. Salmonson.
The saga of Tomoe Gozen is classic tragic heroic fantasy, in the
tradition of the Odyssey.  It is not a grandmother's tale, though my
boys enjoyed parts of it as bedtime stories.  There are at present
three Tomoe Gozen books, though I can recall only the title of the
first and second books. They are _Tomoe_Gozen_ and
_The_Golden_Naginata_ respectively.

Ms. Salmonson has written another novel, _The_Swordswoman_, which
begins with the mental breakdown of a martial artist after she kills
an opponent during a match.  She finds herself transported to
another dimension/world with a feudal Japanese culture.  Although I
do not feel this book is as well written as the Tomoe Gozen saga, it
is worth reading.

Ms. Salmonson is the editor of, among others, _Amazons_ and
_Amazons_II_, two excellent anthologies of heroic fiction about
women.  One of my favorite pieces (in _Amazons_, I believe) is
"Sister Light, Sister Dark" by Jane Yolan, who recently published
the hauntingly lovely novel _The_Cards_of_Grief_ and who is known
mainly for her children's books.  Ms. Salmonson has also published
work by a Canadian author based on African legend and mythology
about women warriors who ride rhinos into battle.  Frostflower and
Thorn stories have also appeared in her anthologies.

I highly recommend Jessica Amanda Salmonson's work, both as editor
and author, especially for those tired of stereotypical portrayals
of women in science fiction and fantasy.

jesse (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

From: proper!elric@topaz.arpa (elric)
Subject: Re: Decline and fall of the StarWars Empire
Date: 24 Aug 85 23:27:56 GMT

davidk@dartvax.UUCP (David C. Kovar) writes:
>On this silly subject, what did the armour in Star Wars ever do?
>All I can recall is that it provided comm facilities, blast
>protection for the eyes, and looked funky. Did any armour *ever*
>turn a shot? What's the point of wearing the stuff?

  Well, the design of the armor appears to be Ablat armor. In theory
the armor vaporizes when hit and carries away the enegry of the
laser. (The armor becomes less effective after each it).
  But in truth, the Stormtroppers are cannon fodder and the real
purpose of the suits is so you can tell goods guys from bad guys...

   Elric
(Only imperial storm troopers could be so accurate....)

------------------------------

Date: 25-Aug-85 22:37 PDT
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms
Cc: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA

I suspect that the armor only protects against getting a bad sun
burn.  That seems to be the only thing it stops!  --Bi//

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 85 8:40:36 EDT
From: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA
Cc: WBD.TYM@office-2.ARPA
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms

The armor protected the Imperials from rocks thrown by Ewoks, for a
while, long enough for them to do something if they had hand
grenades.  If, however, the armor does not actually protect the
Imperials from anything else, that is one more example of Imperial
incompetence, saddling troops with unnecessary extra weight.  A more
likely explanation for the armor not protecting is Lucas not
thinking about the full implications of properly armored troops.  He
probably put Imperials in armor to suggest that the Empire is a
depersonalized, mechanical force, whose troopers all look the same
while the rebel troops all look different since you can see their
faces.

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate)
Subject: The Literature of Ideas
Date: 26 Aug 85 03:26:51 GMT

peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Science fiction is, as you say, the literature of ideas. Unlike
>other forms of literature the background has prominence over the
>characters.  Thus it is that very bad works of literature are very
>good SF. The occasional exceptional author can produce a book
>that's both good SF and "art". It's my opinion, totally
>unsubstantiated by statistical analysis of course, that the % of
>good literature in SF is probably about the same as in other forms
>of fiction... it's just that, since SF has other, orthogonal,
>standards to meet that may take precedence over the quality of the
>writing (look at Robert Heinlein, even his good stuff), certain
>books get raved about by the SF community that the mainstream
>wouldn't even consider reading. This gets up the critics nose,
>since he doesn't realise that there might be other criteria for
>judging a work, so he posts abominable reviews such as the one
>referenced above.
>
>No, folks, we're not anti-art. We just have other things to look
>for than superb characterisation and brilliant prose. If the book
>has these as well, great. But it doesn't stand or fall on them.

I've heard this argument before, but I still doubt its merit.  Let
me begin by considering a few extreme cases.  First, take
_Rendezvous with Rama_, by Arthur C. Clarke.  This is essentially an
essay on how one might go about building an "ark-ship"; plot and
characterization are there simply to move the reader about in the
spaceship.  This certainly is "literature of ideas", but it is far
indeed from storytelling.  For our second course, let us consider a
Heinlein book, in this case, _Glory Road_.  Now in a certain strange
sense this is still "literature of ideas" (about how to run a
galactic empire), but the thing that makes it tick is a fairly
standard sort of adventure story, which could just as well been
decorated with the trappings of "high fantasy" rather than "high
technology".  And finally, let me suggest a couple of books which I
think could be considered literature in the classical sense: _The
Lather of Heaven_ by LeGuin, and _Gateway_ by Fred Pohl.  In a
sense, both of these are "literature of ideas", since both of them
play with the question of "what would happen if we did thus-and-such
to the world?"  But they are also, I would argue, literature in the
classical sense; they both are statements about the nature of man,
and attempt a better (or perhaps only different) understanding.

  It seems to me that the vast bulk of SF (and fantasy in general,
for that matter) falls into the first two categories.  There are
very few authors with a consistent interest in the themes of
Literature.  It is also true that many critics look down upon SF
because (a) people don't have these interests, and (b)
stylistically, SF is very conservative, with quite straightfoward
narrative style.  Nevertheless, I think that it is fair to criticize
SF for its shallowness.  It's very easy to write essays in fictional
drag, or to dress up horror or adventure stories with random SF
elements.  The bald fact is, however, that few authors are willing
even to risk writing something that can hold up to some sort of
introspection and analysis.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

From: escher!doug@topaz.arpa (Douglas J Freyburger)
Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get....
Date: 26 Aug 85 00:47:00 GMT

> From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford
> An interesting possibility occurs to me. Imagine a race whose
> evolution has been similar to that of Vulcans, from an emotional &
> violent past to a very cold & rational present. But this race has
> gone even further; they've lost emotion to the extent that they
> are now totally unable to create art. How- ever, they can still
> appreciate it, and works of art from their distant past are highly
> treasured. What would happen if such a race discovered humanity as
> we currently are? Might they take us as slaves, forcing us to
> create artworks for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the
> kidnapped humans create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering
> contributes to great art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the
> aliens know the difference? Has anyone read anything like this?

The "Skylark of Space" series had an advanced alien race that had
lost the ability to put any emotion into their music, I think in
"Skylark Three", the second of the series.  They were really
impressed listening to our heroes play the violin, and with their
barber-shop quartet singing.  These aliens were friendly and
non-agressive, though.  They didn't want slaves.  Here is good old
E. E.  "Doc" Smith to the rescue with examples.

Doug Freyburger         DOUG@JPL-VLSI, DOUG@JPL-ROBOTICS,
JPL 171-235             ...escher!doug, doug@aerospace,
Pasadena, CA 91109      etc.

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless)
Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive.
Date: 26 Aug 85 01:18:08 GMT

>    Although Western society subjugated natives in four continents,
> we weren't as far above them as we would like to pretend.  Any
> star-voyaging race that finds us will be further ahead of us than
> we are ahead of Cro-Magnon man.
>    Star travelling peoples won't have fought a war in several
> generations.  They aren't going to re-learn just for us.
>                               /Bruce N. Wheelock/

I see no reason to believe the above statements.  Let's look at
Earth history.  Wars are probably the greatest motivation for
technology in mankind's history.  Look at how much money was spent
for R & D during W W II.  Look at the results of the short period
between 1935 and 1945.  The A bomb, the suborbital rocket, the
computer, and radar, all developed during that brief period.

Think where we would be now if we had been spending as much money on
development over the last forty years as we did during that period.
How much closer would we be to the stars?  Would we have already
gained a foothold on the outer planets?  Would we have plans for the
stars?

I believe an alternate view.  A society of ruthless high technology
warriors, who remain high technology by putting their resources into
R & D and get the resources by warfare.

                                Lord Kahless
                                ucbvax!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Aug 85 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #344
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 344

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brin & Forward & Hubbard &
                         MacAvoy & MacCaffrey & Niven &
                         Rosenberg & Tolkien (2 msgs) &
                         Wilders & Dr. Lao,
                 Miscellaneous - Storm Troopers (2 msgs) &
                         Art and Entertainment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: How to contact Anne MacCaffrey??
Date: 27 Aug 85 22:50:40 GMT

I received a reply some months ago regarding David Brin that
said he was working on another novel, uplifting gorillas, I believe.
Anyone know where he stands on that piece or any other stories?

------------------------------

From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Re: THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY
Date: 20 Aug 85 12:58:29 GMT

I agree with Mark Leeper's review. I have read the book about a
month ago, and had almost exactly the same thoughts about it.  The
characters are two-dimensional at best, and some of them thrown in
just to "complete" the crew. Although the gravitational
characteristics of "Roche's World" is interesting, the rest of the
book displays the "Second Book Syndrome". (I.e. Author tries to pull
a similar rabbit out of the hat, except the second rabbit is ... er
... just a mock-up..)

My rating is the same as Mark's. There are some interesting tidbits
in the book, but it is absolutely no match for "Dragon's Egg".

Btw: My sincere thanks to the regulars of this newsgroup, for some
of whom were kind enough to recommend "Dragon's Egg" to me, upon my
query about some good Hard SF to read.

Oz
Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz
Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 85 23:17:19 PDT
From: lah@MIRO.BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Nebula valid?

Actually, as I understand it, all you need to win the Nebula is
enough friends in SFWA...

For that matter, would Battlefield Earth even have come close to a
Hugo without umpteen suddenly-fans from the ranks of the
Scientologists paying for membership and voting for their favourite
god?

Leigh Ann Cynical

------------------------------

From: dataio!bossert@topaz.arpa (John Bossert)
Subject: The Book of Kells (SPOILER WARNING)
Date: 26 Aug 85 18:39:42 GMT

I liked this book as an easy read.  I am confused as to the true
involvement of the Book itself.

I didn't see the Book playing much of a roll in the story (WHAT!?!)
It was John's tracing of circles on the cross that opened the time
portal.  Granted, John was very studied in Gaellic art, of which the
Book was a prime example, and the circles may(?) have been depicted
in the Book.

Can someone (with greater artistic interpretation than I) show
connectivity?  Also, how did the Book figure into the climax when
John "sings" the Norsemen away?

                John Bossert
                Data I/O Corporation
                Redmond, WA
                uw-beaver!entropy!dataio!{bossert,usenet}

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: How to contact Anne MacCaffrey??
Date: 27 Aug 85 22:50:40 GMT

I want to get in touch with Anne MacCaffrey, best known perhaps for
her delightful Dragon series of novels.

Does anyone in netland know how to go about contacting her or the
author of one's choice?

------------------------------

Subject: Niven
Date: 27 Aug 85 18:29:46 PDT (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        ( Micro spoiler for those who haven't read Engineers )

        Just bumped into another problem with Engineers ( Yeah, I
know, big deal ).  It is known that Man bought the hyperdrive from
the Outsiders.  It was sold to the colony on We Made It just in time
for the first war with the Kzinti.  It was the deciding factor in
the war, and gave us the edge there after ( Wunderland Peacemakers
aside ).
        In Engineers, it is told that the Outsiders drifted by the
colony when the Starseed they were following was lured there by the
Puppeteers.  This was to ensure the Kzinti lost big, which they did.
        But in A Gift From Earth, the epilog describes the Outsider
ship finding We Made It by following the course of a rambot that
flashed by one afternoon.  No Starseeds, no Puppeteers, no nothing.

        Tell you folks what I'm a gonna do.  There's a small con in
Fullerton this weekend ( at Griswold's Inn.  Call there for more
info. ), and Niven has shown up there the last several years.  So
I'll ask the guy 'Hey, Larry, what gives ?'.  But I am starting to
see why he once said he's done writing Known Space stories because
things have gotten to complex to handle properly.

                        Dave Godwin
                        UC Irvine

------------------------------

From: ihu1m!johnnyr@topaz.arpa (John R. Rosenberg)
Subject: Joel Rosenberg' Guardians of the Flame
Date: 23 Aug 85 14:19:48 GMT

Has volume 3 of this series been written or published yet? Are there
any rumors about dates or plots?

Thanks

John Rosenberg
ihnp4!ihu1m!johnnyr

------------------------------

From: spar!platt@topaz.rutgers.edu (John Platt)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 26 Aug 85 16:33:11 GMT

If anyone is interested in the origin of many of the names in Lord
of the Rings, you might want to track down "Languages of
Middle-Earth" by Ruth Noel.  Or "Mythology of Middle-Earth", also by
Ruth Noel. She mentions the dwarf names, and other interesting
stuff, too.
                                        john platt
                                        decwrl!spar!platt (UUCP)
                                     or platt@sri-kl (ARPA)

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 28 Aug 85 08:41:30 EDT (Wed)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>

>Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the
>dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and
>rhyming.

The first few times I read the Hobbit I had no idea this was going
on, but when I recently read the Hobbit to my 3-1/2 year-old
daughter -- out loud -- I found out that the book is *particularly*
well suited to that type of reading, and exceptionally well suited
for reading to children.

The book is broken into fairly discreet 15-30 minute reading
segments (if you're reading out loud to a child).  The names and
words and descriptions are a fascinating combination of
alliteration, verbal whimsy, and (in a few instances of what seem
sheer spitefulness) tongue twisters.  The concepts and conflicts
presented in the Hobbit are also well within the ken of even *very*
young children.

My daughter enjoyed it, got a lot out of it, remembers it, and (I
suspect) will get more and more out of it when she reads it again --
on her own.  I have no doubt that the dwarf names were, indeed,
invented for their alliteration and rhyming.  And I, for one, can
see why it was done that way.

Burgess Allison
<allison@mitre>

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 08:07:07-PDT
From: heffelfinger%raven1.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: A Princess of the Chameln

   Just a word of thanks to whoever it was that recommended this
book to people who liked "The Blue Sword" and "The Hero and the
Crown" by R. McKinley.  (Of course I no longer have the original
posting.)
   Cherry Wilders's "A Princess of the Chameln" was definitely a
good read.  I'm wiped out today because I stayed up so late last
night to finish it.  The original recommender (henceforth O.R.)
found this book in the juvenile section.  At Waldenbooks, I found it
in the SF/Fantasy section.  It is certainly not a juvenile work in
my opinion.
   The O.R. also mentioned two books by Tamora Pierce.  These I
could not find but now have on order.
   Herein find another vote for this book if you liked McKinley's
stuff.

Thanks again O.R. whoever you are...
Tracey Heffelfinger
Digital Equipment Corp.
Greenville, S.C.
UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger
ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 25 August 1985 09:13:26 EDT
From: <VM0A65%WVNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: DR. LAO

My copy of THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO shows Charles Finney as the author.
A friend says an early Bantam copy of MARTIAN CHRONICLES lists THE
CIRCUS OF DR. LAO as one of the "other books by Ray Bradbury."
Anyone know anything about this?

------------------------------

From: proper!elric@topaz.rutgers.edu (elric)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops
Date: 27 Aug 85 02:12:42 GMT

 The Empire is a typical decadent power. Used to wasting all threats
with great firepower. They got lazy.
  It also seemed common for commanders to kill subordinates. (ie
Vader's attacks on various officers of his own fleet) Not a way to
increase moral.
 Only the fighter pilots seemed to have any skill and good equipment.
   Elric

------------------------------

From: sesame!slerner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms
Date: 27 Aug 85 07:06:29 GMT

> He probably put Imperials in armor to suggest that the Empire is a
> depersonalized, mechanical force, whose troopers all look the same
> while the rebel troops all look different since you can see their
> faces.

To combine a few of the earlier ideas: There has been a recent
advance in blaster technology (blasters are obviously relatively
new, since light sabers where in use 1 generation ago), and armor
technology has not kept up.  Military bureaucracy always takes
forever to catch up with reality, so troops are still required to
wear armor even though it's ineffective.  The rebels, on the other
hand, have no resources to waste.  Since armor doesn't help against
modern blasters, they don't wear any.

It is just a useful coincidence that we can see the rebels faces and
the empire's lackys look like something out of a cheap toy store
:-).

Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner
{genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner
{cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner
slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 11:28:07-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Art and Entertainment  (There will be an oral examination at
Subject: the end of this lecture -- ;)

All works produced with skill, knowledge, or creativity are
essentially artistic.  A work of Art is generally judged in
excellence by comparison with products of similar processes.
Sculptures made from marble, from ice, and from old automobile parts
can be compared; qualitative judgements can be made and even a
ranking can be imposed, based on the standards of good sculpture.  A
visually entertaining piece is easier to judge than a novel, of
course, but the artistic element of a novel is no less apparent.

A work of art is judged by its expression -- a good artist conveys
the emotional level of his work as well as the technical level.
This is what makes a sculpture both entertaining and well-executed.
So, to clarify the discussion of Art v.s. Entertainment, we have to
define Art as the ability to craft a piece using knowledge and skill
as well as creative thinking.

And to entertain a subject, the piece has to convey both technical
and aesthetic impressions.  If you, as the subject, are unfamiliar
with the technical requirements of an art form, you are less likely
to appreciate the results of the artistic endeavor.  On the other
hand, a heavy emphasis on the creativity of the artistic process can
obscure an appreciation of the work.  Artistic quality is the result
of both technical and creative technique.

Most people appreciate a work for its technical merits, based on the
level of knowledge available about the craft.  If you are familiar
with the literary tenets by which a novel is determined to be a
Classic of literature, you will probably find the sheer artistic
skill of the author to be entertaining.  If you are less familiar
with these tenets, then you probably rely on the author's ability to
convey impressions and sensations -- the creative level of the
novel.  But you would not appreciate this level of writing if the
author didn't subscribe to certain tenets of literature.  Sometimes
the author succeeds in conveying the desired impression by
selectively rejecting or reversing the rules.  For example, see the
classic Alice In Wonderland.  Vonnegut, Jr. also bends the rules, to
achieve a conversational, personal style of writing.

Artistic license doesn't mean that the artist can do any anything
she wants.  The author of a novel must convey some emotions and/or
ideas to the reader.  Sometimes these are revealed through a plot
structure that depends on chronological occurrences.  Since this is
a controlled, familiar environment, this device is effective for the
general reader.  But a novel can be based on impressions,
sensations, and philosophical beliefs.  Take William Faulkner, or
Samuel Delany.  No clear plot.  No logical cause-effect occurrences
to provide the reader with the sensation of movement, change, and
action.  Instead, these authors require you to read differently, to
assess the impact of each sentence, each thought, at an emotional
and associative level.  Similar to a painting by Picasso, Dahlgren
asks you to accept the artist's style as the most effective way to
convey impressions and sensations.  If you can associate the
elements in a Picasso painting with your own view of life, if you
can understand why all the elements are collected onto one canvas,
and if you had some reaction to the painting, then you appreciate
Picasso as an artist, his painting as a work of art.

Dahlgren has to be viewed with the same intention.  In reading most
novels, it is apparent from the beginning whether the plot is based
on action or on sensations.  Since almost all actions and
impressions in Dahlgren are strictly from the perspective of one
rather confused human being, the action in the novel is certainly of
less importance than the thoughts and feelings of this protagonist.
But there is action in Dahlgren.  Everything happens to the
protagonist, and this perspective governs the reader's impressions
of the action.  Perhaps the greatest difficulty in appreciating this
style of writing is surrendering to the emotive influences of
another's thoughts and feelings.  It is far easier to read a Fantasy
novel than Sound and Fury, but you will find that the discipline of
reading William Faulkner is rewarded by a greater appreciation for
the power of the written word.

When can a novel be judged as A Work of Art?  The requirements are
clear: the author must use skill, knowledge, and creativity in
producing the novel.  The first novel by an author does not
necessarily reveal the author's control over his craft, though it
can indicate the level of creativity that the author is able to
convey in writing.  The bestseller is not always a Work of Art --
The Joy of Sex was really popular for a while, but it's about as
innovative as its subject matter.  However, an author who proves his
craft by displaying skill and creativity in successive works, and
whose work becomes popular, even posthumously, can be judged more
objectively as an artist.  Only time can make a Classic, but each of
us contributes to the popularity of any one author or novel.

To judge each book as a Work of Art is to limit the power of the
Science Fiction genre, by creating a standard for authors to follow.
Since Science Fiction and Fantasy depend on innovation as well as
effective technique, they can only suffer by attempting to conform
to the standards imposed by the readership.  Better to judge a book
for its own merits, an author for her unique skills, and be aware of
artistic attempts that fail.  Not all Art is good, but all good
novels are artistic.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Aug 85 0917-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #345
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Aug 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 345

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Pohl &
                          Schmitz (3 msgs) & Tolkien &
                          Arabian Nights,
                  Comics - SF in Comics,
                  Films - Godzilla 1985 & Fail Safe &
                          Rocketship XM,
                  Miscellaneous - Puns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 11:49:37 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: What Really Happened to the Protectors

I think this ties up the loose ends...

The protectors from Home go out to battle the Pak protector fleet.
Let's assume they win.  They can't leave such a source of trouble as
the Pak out there, so they head off to Pak (they don't care how long
it takes, remember.)  Truesdale sends the message to Earth (in the
epilogue of Protector) as a way of letting them know that there is
still a menace.  (Why didn't he just say so?  Looking at the actions
of the protectors we've seen, they seem to have a love for the
devious method and they enjoy leaving puzzles for people.)

During the battle with the Pak (or maybe just before or after), the
human protectors discover the hyperdrive -- they are at this time
far enough from any stars that it could be discovered.
Alternatively, they may have encountered an Outsider out there and
bought/stolen the hyperdrive.  (Why didn't they give the hyperdrive
to the rest of the human race?  (1) They would have had to reveal
themselves; (2) Children can get *hurt* playing with such things!)

At the hyperdrive velocity of 3 days/light-year, it will take about
150-200 years for the protectors to get to Pak.  Thus, the
protectors are out of town during the Man-Kzin wars, the puppeteer
manipulations, etc.  The protectors arrive at Pak and find the
Tnuctipun have just eaten the Pak (except for the Pak protectors --
those hard joints are rough on the digestion!)  [If the appearance
of the Tnuctipun seems totally illogical to you, see Down In
Flames.]  The protectors fight the good fight, but being outnumbered
millions to one they die to the last protector, except for Roy
Truesdale, who escapes.  He heads back to known space and realizes
it will take bunches and bunches of protectors to fight the
Tnuctipun.  The trip takes another 150-200 years, so he gets home
about the time of Ringworld.  Truesdale starts by kidnapping Beowulf
Sheaffer and changing him into a protector -- and the rest of Down
In Flames follows from here.  The suggestion that Sheaffer may have
been off in a slowboat for a while, with time dilation keeping him
young enough to make the change to protectorship (protectorhood?
protectorness?), is quite plausible.

And somewhere along the way, we meet the mysterious Opak, the Penguin
Protector...(oof! ouch! okay, I give up!)

                           marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 12:50:20 edt
From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
To: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Protectors

OK, let's go for bizarre theories...

1) Teela knew that there were more human protectors around.  Why?
She knew about Pthsspok, and could deduce what Brennan would do.

2) The human protectors found the hyperspace drive (maybe even the
Mark 2).  Remember, they are much more intelligent than the Pak
protectors.  With this, and their patience, they certainly found the
ringworld.

3) The human protectors decided that the best interests of the human
race would NOT be served by eliminating all possible danger.
Rather, they decided that possible threats (puppeteers, kzinti,
etc.) would challenge the human race, but not cause any damage.
Remember that Brennan did not want the human race to have access to
tree-of-life because it would cause internecine warfare?  What
better way to make a better human race than to unify it with the
threat of Kzin, say, but fix the outcome in such a way that hard
work by the human race would make it prevail (shades of Doc Smith
here...)

4) Teela, of course, knows this (somehow...)  She knows that the
human protectors exists, and thet they know about the ringworld.
For that matter, they have already met and decided upon a course of
action...a lucky protector is bad for the human race (without harsh
reality to intervene, Teela's instincts would be too strong?).  So
Teela challenged Louis Wu to fix the ringworld.  If he failed, the
rest of the protectors would be there to fix it.  If Louis couldn't
fix it, he wasn't up to the task.

5) Teela, due to her instincts, is really protecting homo sapiens.
By forcing Louis to kill 5% of the Ringworld, she is making that
space available to humans (5% of ringworld = 3E5 Earths).  OK, so
this is a bit silly, she could kill all the ringworld, but maybe the
other protectors wouldn't let her...

Robert

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 28 Aug 1985 08:27:34-PDT
From: heffelfinger%raven1.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Fred Pohl and Trilogies

   About 3 weeks ago I attended the Atlanta Fantasy Fair.  One of
the guests was Fred Pohl.  I attended his talk and thought I'd pass
along a gem to you.
   He was talking about the disturbing trend to take an idea that
would make a good novel and stretch it to a trilogy.<scattered
applause> He then said "Of course some might take my critism with a
bit of skepticism since I'm the author of the Gateway/Beyond the
Blue Event Horizon/Heechee Rendezvous Trilogy..."<lots of
laughter>"I've decided what to do about that... I'm writing a fourth
book."<lots of applause> Then he went on to read a short section
from "Little Lost Heechee".  (don't know if that title is going to
stick).
   Fred was delightful to listen to.  He's a funny and fascinating
gentleman.  I'm glad he was at my first SF/Fantasy convention.  It's
makes it more likely that I'll go to another.

Tracey Heffelfinger
Digital Equipment Corp
Greenvilee, S.C.

UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger
ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 85 23:44:51 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: James Schmitz:  Telzey Amberdon
To: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA

> Also did any of James Schmitz's stories on Telzy appear outside
> of Analog?

Certainly!  Two full novels: "The Universe Against Her" and "The
Lion Game", and a book containing four short stories: "The Telzey
Toy".  Good reading, and an interesting perspective on psi powers.
Unfortunately, "The Universe Against Her" is out of print and I
haven't seen the others in book stores recently, so I suspect they
are also out of print.  Anyone know of any others?

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 09:17:00 PDT
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Telzy Amberdon ---

The Telzy Amberdon stories have been collected into three
paperbacks:

The Universe Against Her
The Telzey Toy
The Lion Game

There may be more.
My favorite Schmitz story (novel), however, remains

The Witches of Karres

                        -Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 09:02:07 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: James Schmitz:  Telzey Amberdon
To: <phil@Rice.arpa>

     The three books, "The Universe Against Her", "The Lion Game",
and "The Telzey Toy" are all short stories and novels from Analog
1961(?) to 1973.  (San Jose State University has Analog on microfilm
from 1961 to 1978!!!)  Telzy was first introduced early in the 60's.
It was almost five years later when James Schmitz started to write
Telzy stories again.  There were even a couple that appeared in
Analog that I haven't seen in any book.  Did James Schmitz write any
stories on Telzy that didn't appear in Analog?

     Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 09:14:00 PDT
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- DWARVES ---

Comment on:

> Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the
> dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and
> rhyming.

Actually, even in light of the news presented about the old source
for these names, it still seems likely that they were made for their
alliteration.....that is not solely a motive of modern writers.....
                        -Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 85 10:56 CDT
From: John_Mellby <jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Arabian Nights

I encourage anyone with an interest in fantasy to read the earlier
translations of the Arabian Nights.  The 'cut' versions do not fully
do it justice.  As Peter Reiher's message said, AN is several
volumes.  The Burton translation which appears to be the definitive
one, is 10 volumes plus 6 volumes of 'extra' stories.  I originally
saw this bound in hardcover at the Strand Bookstore in NYC for $55.
Not a bad price for 16 volumes!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 09:28:00 PDT
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- COMICS ---

The review on the "Dreaming City" comic, brings up a point.

There are more comic companies out there than just DC & Marvel!

The GrimJack/StarSlayer/etc. continuity provides a good Science
Fiction & Fantasy background (and almost anywhere is available
through the city at the center of the multiverse....  whose name I
can't remember currently....)

Then there is the American Flagg series....a bit strange, but good
and definitely Science Fiction.

Myself, I like the super-heros too....but there is a LOT more out
there.........
                        -Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 09:30:57 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Godzilla 1985
From: Dewing.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

                     A Review Of GODZILLA 1985
                               by me

  After all the argument about spoilers this film makes it easy to
decide. How can you spoil a Godzilla film? There are two types of
Godzilla films 1) Like the original, mean Godzilla tears up Tokyo
2) Most others, good Godzilla saves man from monster(s) but tears up
Tokyo.
  What I liked about Godzilla 1985 was the return to type 1.
Godzilla emmerges, munches a few ships, gets shot at and bombed,
saunters about Tokyo stepping on things, fights new super weapon,
tricked away from Tokyo, beaten (but may or may not be dead).
  Acting? I suppose you could call it that. Plot? see above. Special
effects? Better than the original but to present effects <hysterical
laughter>.Dubbing? see previous <>.
  Now from my above comments you might come to the conclusion that I
didn't like it. WRONG. I went to see this movie on opening night
because of the reasons above. They made this film to be serious.
It's so crummy that it is fun to watch.
  Recomendation: See it for a good laugh
  Rating: On a scale of 0 to 10 I give it a i [i=square root (-1)]
  Song: Go Go Go Godzilla (Blue Oyster Cult)(Not in film)
  Viewing Sugestion: Turn off brain

P.S. It also is worth seeing because the lead-in is Godzilla vs.
     Bambi
P.P.S. On opening night at the 8:15 PM showing the theater was half
full (empty?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 12:36:48 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@Almsa-2>
Subject: Re: Unknown Stupidity.... (old SF movie)

Speaking of poor special effects, a local station broadcast the
accidental-nuclear-attack film "Fail Safe" the other day. Even
though they used some really atrocious effects, the film still comes
across rather effectively. As far as bad EFX, for example: they
wanted to portray a spy-satellite real-time TV picture, and for this
they used that old shot taken by a camera looking down from a V-2 or
one of the earlier test rockets, taking off from White Sands. They
used the end part of the film, where the rocket is tumbling
violently so the image spins and oscillates between views of earth
and sky, as what the "normal" image from the spy satellite would be;
then, to simulate zooming to higher magnification, they showed the
takeoff portion of that old film, run in reverse! (What a crock! :-)

The other strange aspect of the effects was that they showed all the
aircraft-in-flight shots as if they were negatives (it is a B&W
movie); this could be just artistic license, though -- however, for
some inexplicable reason, when they were attempting to depict a
group of fighter planes (the same group each time) they used a
motley assortment of shots of various types of fighters, differing
each time. Another poor selection was that they used a shot of a
fighter launching rockets as one depicting "fighters going to
afterburners" -- though you saw smoke trails from the rear of the
plane, you also saw them extending to the front, and caught a
glimpse of the rockets moving off-screen as the shot began.
Considering that stock footage of all sorts of aircraft doing all
sorts of things can be easily bought, I see no excuse for such
sloppy selection and editing.

As I said, though, despite all this evidence of poor craftsmanship,
the movie still was pretty effective, providing good tension and
suspense (even for someone like me who had seen it several times
before). One last point -- nowadays we have seen repeated news
stories discussing the "Hot Line", and emphasizing that it really is
a teleprinter link, not a telephone line. However, I can see that
having a telephone link would be most useful and valuable. Is there
a telephone Hot Line circuit available at all, maybe subsidiary to
the teleprinter link?

Regards, Will Martin

ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Name That Turkey
Date: 28 Aug 85 11:56:17 GMT

> From: Kevin Carosso <engvax!KVC@cit-vax>
> As I'm writing this, I'm watching some random late night flick and
> wondering what it could possibly be.  It's a REALLY BAD early sf
> flick.  Black and white.  Story seems to be emminent doctor
> designs spaceship (called the RMX).  [...]  Oh, also, I'm SURE I
> saw a young version of Jim Rockford's dad (Rocky) in the crew of
> of the RMX. (yeah I'm a Rockford fan) [...]  So, as I'm lacking a
> TV guide, can anyone pin a title on this turkey?

It's called ROCKETSHIP XM, written and directed by Kurt Neumann,
starring, among others, Lloyd Bridges and Hugh O'Brian, and --- you
guessed it right --- Noah Beery, Jr. (Rockford's dad). The story
goes that Neumann filmed this in something like two or three days in
order to beat DESTINATION MOON to the theaters.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Filmography is my pastime">

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to Will Martin (wmartin@Almsa-2) for
similar information.]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 85 08:43:00 PDT
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- puns and art ---

As has been pointed out, art is in the eye of the beholder.

I believe that a truly great (or bad...) pun IS a work of art,
sometimes a great amount of work can be put into just finding the
proper delivery (for ex. the Isaac Asimov (I belive) story, Shah
Guido G. -- the title of which is merely that of a "shaggy dog"
story...not to mention what happens in the story itself).

I think a discussion on the artistic worth vs. the "readablity" of a
story is fairly fruitless, both qualities being highly subject to
personal interpretation.

                -Richard Hartman
                max.hartman@ames-vmsb

P.S.:  I REALLY like the Spider Robinson "pun stories".  We need
       more like them!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 85 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #346
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 346

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Delany & Niven (3 msgs) &
                     Culture Clash Stories & Dr. Lao (2 msgs),
             Films - O'Bannon & Worst SF Films Ever Poll,
             Music - New Kate Bush Mailing List,
             Miscellaneous - Critics & Arms and Armor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt)
Subject: Re: re: Bar Stories Primaevil [sic]
Date: 26 Aug 85 03:20:00 GMT

I thought bibliography was your business.  You flubbed up.  At least
three of the 36 Black Widowers stories are sf in nature or topic
("The Backward Look" comes to mind).  In fact, a goodly percentage
of the BW stories were bought by IASFM and F&SF -- I'm almost
certain (I don't have the books handy) that F&SF + IASFM have bought
more BW stories than EQ or any other mystery magazine!
                                        orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 85 07:51:55 PDT
From: Dave Suess <zeus@AEROSPACE.ARPA>
Subject: Dhalgren, Art, Anti-Art, and L.A.

I hate to add to the volume (discussions on likes vs. dislikes, art
vs. "anti-art", etc. aren't all that amenable to info-sharing), but
I found an aid to reading Dhalgren that helped *me* greatly.

After working at the first part of the book, I moved to Los Angeles.
Once I started recognizing the locations in Dhalgren as a shattered
L. A., I warmed to the imagery and enjoyed it a lot more, and
finished (finally!) with an overall satisfied feel.  Nothing like
picturing L.A. in ruins to add a wistful smile to your day!

(If you do move to L. A. to enjoy the novel, don't tell the natives
I told you to.  Some of 'em get surly about that.)  -- Dave Suess

------------------------------

From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: Re: Protectors and the Ringworld
Date: 27 Aug 85 04:41:00 GMT

According to Larry Niven Himself, by way of rolf wilson himself (who
was once involved in a now-defunct concordance): Ringworld was built
and settled by some Pak who lost a war on the Pak homeworld.  The
Library wasn't involved at all.

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Niven's Known space:  hyperdrive for sale
Date: 28 Aug 85 14:06:51 GMT

>                 ******  SPOILER WARNING!  ******
>But now that I think about it, it seems that the ending of "A Gift
>from Earth" is inconsistent with "Ringworld".  In "Ringworld", we
>are led to believe that the Puppeteers used a Starseed lure to
>force a meeting between the Outsiders and Man, knowing that Man
>would buy the FTL drive and then win the Man-Kzin war.  But, at the
>end of "A Gift from Earth", the outsiders pick up the trail of a
>ramscoop robot and compute its destination (or was it source?) and
>say to themselves, "Ahhh, new customers".  Oops!
>                        William LeFebvre

I don't think this is a problem.  The puppeteers used the starseed
lure to pull the Outsiders into human space, then when the Outsiders
saw the ramscoop robot they followed it to We Made It.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Known Space books
Date: 28 Aug 85 11:44:58 GMT

> From: Kevin Carosso <engvax!KVC@cit-vax>
> First of all, I was wondering if someone out there would be kind
> enough to post a complete list of Known Space books.  I've read a
> lot of it, and liked it, but have never been sure if I've read
> everything Niven wrote in Known Space.

WORLD OF PTAAVS
THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON
THE PATCHWORK GIRL
PROTECTOR
TALES OF KNOWN SPACE
A GIFT FROM EARTH
NEUTRON STAR
RINGWORLD
THE RINGWORLD ENGINEERS

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 14:47:44 CDT
From: moorel@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: CULTURE CLASH STORIES

        On the subject of books which concern the clash between very
different cultures, I would like to point out several books that
illuminate clashes between very different human cultures as well as
between humans and aliens.
        The first is a fairly serious book by Suzette Haden Elgin,
called _Native_Tongue_. This book has as its premise that the only
way to be completely fluent in an alien language is to learn it as a
child from a native speaker. This provides the child with another
"native tongue" in which they are able to "think" like a native
speaker. The story is set in the near future on Earth, and the
culture of the humans in the story is provided with a "history" that
gives a reasonable idea of how it might have grown out of our
present day world. The interactions between humans and aliens and
with other humans are very powerfully depicted, and the book makes
some very intense and thoughtful statements about what might happen
when humans are more alien to one another than real "aliens".
        The other books that I would like to recommend are basically
a delightful, easy reading set of books by L. Neil Smith, the
Probability Broach series.  The books are independent of each other
for the most part, but in (story) chronological order are:
        _The_Probability_Broach_, _The_Nagasaki_Vector_,
_The_Venus_Belt_, _Tom_Paine_Maru_, and in the same universe,
_Their_Majesties'_Bucketeers.  These books concern the contact
between two very similar parallel universes, one of which is a
near-future America very similar to ours and the other is an America
in which the Whiskey Rebellion succeeded. The two worlds have very
different philosophical outlooks on government, personal
responsibility, the environment, space, etc., etc., and the
difficulties experienced by people from "our" world in adapting to
their culture are fascinating. The books are very light in tone,
frequently quite humorous, and read very fast. They're great for any
rainy afternoon or just when you're a bit blue. The last book, the
one about the bucketeers is not about the human cultures, but is
styled after the adventures of Sherlock Holmes and is set on a very
well developed world inhabited by trisexual aliens. Read and enjoy!

                        Lynne C. Moore (MOOREL@EGLIN-VAX.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 28 Aug 1985 03:18:55-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: DR. LAO

> From: <VM0A65%WVNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
> My copy of THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO shows Charles Finney as the
> author.  A friend says an early Bantam copy of MARTIAN CHRONICLES
> lists THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO as one of the "other books by Ray
> Bradbury."  Anyone know anything about this?

THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO is indeed by Charles Finney. The Bradbury book
in question is an anthology entitled THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO AND OTHER
IMPROBABLE STORIES, that includes the Finney story (which is a
rather short novel).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: DR.LAO
Date: 4 Sep 85 05:38:36 GMT

>My copy of THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO shows Charles Finney as the
>author.  A friend says an early Bantam copy of MARTIAN CHRONICLES
>lists THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO as one of the "other books by Ray
>Bradbury."  Anyone know anything about this?

I own two copies of the book, in fact.  THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO AND
OTHER IMPROBABLE STORIES, edited by Ray Bradbury, a Bantam Book,
$.35.  It doesn't contain a single story written by Bradbury,
though.  It does contain a really great story by Charles Finney, as
the title promises.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 11:39:02 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: (brief) movie review [Return of the Living Dead]
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

From Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA> :
>Dan O'Bannon's script-writing, which I detested in Dark Star, is
>still detestable even now.  How he gets funding for these farces is
>beyond me.

O'Bannon does have trouble getting his movies made. In a recent L.A.
Times interview, he described how his script for LifeForce was
butchered (even he admitted the movie sucked), and Alien nearly
suffered the same fate (the producers couldn't resist sticking their
fingers in the pie; at one point they wanted to eliminate the alien
entirely and call the movie "Space Trucking". Really!).  Several of
O'Bannon's other scripts have disappeared without a trace.

But did you really dislike Dark Star that much?  I'm curious to know
why; it's still one of my favorite SF and/or comedy films.  It was
even fairly realistic in its depiction of a group of people slowly
going insane from boredom.  [And who could forget the Bomb?]

By the way, O'Bannon's rationale for making RotLD is that he feels
that the horror genre has been overdone lately, and he wanted to
make a dead-on parody of the genre, since the time has come for such
a thing.  I'll probably see the film in the next couple weeks, and
let you all know what I think...
                                                --Peter Alfke
PS: For an interesting description of how much money there is to be
made in never having your scripts made into films, see the new issue
of Time.

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt)
Subject: Worst SF Film Ever
Date: 26 Aug 85 03:24:00 GMT

Okay folks, how about the Worst SF movie ever Poll?  Send votes for
Worst, Next to Worst, and Second to Worst Bad SF Movie Ever to

{tektronics | hp-pcd}!orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Alan)
Subject: Do you want to be on the Kate Bush fans mailing list?
Date: 29 Aug 85 08:17:20 GMT

Hi! This message is to let you know that there is now a mailing list
for the discussion of Kate Bush's music (and any other artistic
music or anything else for that matter).  Her music doesn't often
have much to do with SF, but I'm told that a lot of SF fans are Kate
Bush fans (I'm both!), so I figured I'd advertize here.

The mailing list is "love-hounds@mit-eddie".  Mit-Eddie is on the
ArpaNet and on the UUCP net (ihnp4!mit-eddie, allegra!mit-eddie,
decvax!genrad!mit-eddie).  Send requests to be on the list to me or
to "love-hounds-request@mit-eddie".  And tell me whether you'd
rather receive individual messages or a daily auto-digest.

                 Doug Alan
                  nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: critics
Date: 26 Aug 85 17:30:56 GMT

> From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
> Ken Moreau writes:
>>But I won't depend on some pompous critic (or even you, Mr.
>>Tucker) to tell me that some piece of sh** is art simply because I
>>don't immediately like or understand it.  If it is art (and to me
>>that is a very select, very praiseworthy term), then it will be
>>immediately obvious to everyone. If it is not, then it fails the
>>test, and no critic can sneer at my taste enough to make me admit
>>it is art.
>
> What I find most disturbing is your contention that, if one
> doesn't immediately recognize the value of a work, or if a book
> isn't a good read, then it is not a great work of art.

Waaaaaiiiit a minute.  I saw you palm that card.  Immediately
recognizing the value of a book is not the same thing as said book
being a good read.  It is my considered (and I do mean considered)
opinion (and I do mean opinion) that to be great art a book must be,
first of all, a good read.  If something is sufficiently
inaccessible that it cannot be read for fun, it fails as art because
it will only speak to that small segment of the population that is
already prepared to listen; its exploration of (if I may) the human
condition is wasted on those who could otherwise get the most out of
it.  Something that is ONLY a good read is something that I can
respect (there's so much that isn't even that), but, for me, great
literature must be a good read and more.

One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how long is
the author remembered?  This isn't one hundred percent; not matter
how hard I try I cannot convince myself that Cooper was writing
great literature.  BUT--what writer who is remembered and, more,
STILL READ after a hundred years failed to write stories or books
that were fun to read?

I have no patience for intellectual arrogance, which leads us to:

> ....  Perhaps you have read books like "The Sound and the Fury"
> and "Ulysses" and been immediately blown away by what good reads
> they were.

I will confess, hanging my head and whimpering, that I have not read
THE SOUND AND THE FURY.  I have read ULYSSES.  It fails as great
literature.  It speaks only to the intellectual elite.  This isn't
bad; the intellectual elite could use some speaking to, but great
literature must be inclusive, not exclusive.

I wish I were good enough that I could have written ULYSSES.  But I
say that the same way one says, "I wish could afford an elephant."
I don't want the elephant, I just wish I could afford one.

Nevertheless, I agree with a great deal of what you said.  Good
writing can be found anywhere, from children's books to the
"literary" genre.  Perhaps there is outstanding writing in romances,
or westerns, or even pornography.

But the point about critics is this: I believe that good writing
must be accessable.  But "accessable" varies from person to person.
I also believe that it is reasonable to discuss writing in terms of
certain standards that transcend "I liked this" or "I didn't like
this."  THAT is the role of a critic.  A good critic.  The role of
the bad critic is ego fullfillment.  I think Gene Wolfe is
accessible.  I know others who don't.  I think Wolfe's BOOK OF THE
NEW SUN may prove to be great literature.  Others don't.  The
subject happens to interest me.  A good critic, whether or not I
agree with him, will help me organize the issues in such a way that
will help me decide, and, MUCH more important, get more out of the
book.  And I want to get more out of the book.  It was so much fun
to read. . . .

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 85 13:05 EDT
From: ------ Operator <ops@ncsc>
Subject: Arms, Armor, and Armor all

I would like to direct your attention to Poul Anderson's essay "On
Thud and Blunder", which I have in a collection titled _Fantasy_ and
which doubtless appears elsewhere.  Anderson directly addresses such
concerns as: Can you really lop heads off with just one blow?  What
happens if your sword breaks?  Just how hard is it to learn to lop?
East or west, which armor is best?  How do you avoid plague,
Montazuma's revenge, and crabs in a medieval culture? And the ever
popular...If the damsel in distress can singlehandedly hold off the
wicked sorcerer/Dark Lord/ogre/our hero with a forty pound
broadsword, outrun the Dogs of Death/boiling lava/local
gendarmes/our hero in 3-inch spike heels, ankle irons, and filmy
garments, and outdrink, out fight, and out love the Black Company/an
army of trolls/Ed McMahon/our hero...how come she looks like lifting
a strand of hair away from her immaculately made-up face would make
her faint with exertion?

Leigh Ann might find some of the more serious concerns addressed of
value, as would any one else contemplating life and war in a
barbaric culture.

Jessie (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  3 Sep 85 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #347
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 85 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #347
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 347

Today's Topics:

           Books - Hubbard (2 msgs) & MacAvoy (2 msgs) &
                   Niven & Zelazny & Dr. Lao,
           Films - The Stuff,
           Music - Bladerunner Soundtrack & SF in Music,
           Miscellaneous - Development of Technology &
                   Critics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 85 16:45:33 PDT (Thursday)
From: Richardson.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #343

>...  I honestly don't know if the L. Ron Hubbard that writes
>science fiction is the same one that wrote the scientology book.
>                                -Richard Hartman
>                                max.hartman@ames-vmsb

Your friend is wrong; it's the same L. Ron Hubbard.  I remember
reading a comment from another author about L. Ron saying "The only
way to really make money is to found a religion."  And a few years
later, ...

Rich  <Richardson.SV@Xerox.ARPA>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 85 20:41:58 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

  There is only one L. Ron Hubbard.  He writes SF, he wrote the
Dianetics books, and he founded Scientology.
  According to Reader's Digest, he claims to be trillions of years
old and from another star system.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 01:34:39-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #344

> I liked this book [The Book of Kells] as an easy read.  I am
> confused as to the true involvement of the Book itself.

(Slilght Spoiler)

I started reading the book at 3:30 a.m., so I don't remember
everything.  Weren't the monks copying the Book of Kellss, and that
copy the one we know of as the Book today?  Didn't the hero bring it
back to our time, compare it against the original?

It didn't seem integral to the plot, but titles have been given for
less.  (on my desk now, The Left Hand of Darkness and Swann's Way).
There are two or three books with titles of the form ``The Book of
x'' (or a near-synonym) a year.  Someone must think it's neat.

>  Granted, John was very studied in Gaellic art, of which the Book
>was a prime example, and the circles may(?) have been depicted in
>the Book.

Not in any part I remember, which is a minimal fraction of the
whole.  I don't remember MacAvoy saying anything about them being in
the Book, either.

>  Also, how did the Book figure into the climax when John "sings"
>the Norsemen away?

When he thought ``too much Book of Kells?'' I think he was worrying
about his sanity, as well he might; that he was in a hallucination
induced by too much time on the Book.  I thought John left the real
book in somewhere safe for the battle.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 09:20:42-PDT
From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Book of Kells

                    *** Mild spoiler warning ***

        Though I can't claim to know how the real Book of Kells
figured into the opening of the time portal, I rather suspected that
its opening had more to do with the peculiar intricasies of Celtic
knotwork.

        There have been theories (as yet unproven with any real
rigor) that the ancient Celtic knotwork (with which the BOK's
illuminated manuscripts abound) were a form of musical notation.
The connection between music and the spirals was always quite clear
in the book.  Hence, the opening of the time portal was not so much
due to the cross John was tracing, but the geometry of the spirals
themselves.

        A subtle but crucial point about the green portal opened in
the height of the final battle is that John was fingering the
knotwork around the band of his hat at the time -- once more making
the connection.

        Just my ideas, of course.
                                                ... ron cain

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 85 09:33:00 PDT
From: mar.hart@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Down In Flames ---

Can anybody tell me which book this story comes from?  I don't seem
to remember the events being described by the current Protector
Discussion that keeps referencing this story (in which Bey S. gets
turned into a protector, apparently....)

                T.I.A.
                        -Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 28 Aug 85 12:34:00 GMT

I read Trumps of Doom last night. It was the most enjoyable new book
i've read in quite a while. If you are not a Zelazny fan, or you
didn't like/haven't read the Amber series this is probably not the
book for you. If however the first paragraph of Nine Princes was an
injection of pure pleasure then run out and get it. Check it out
from the library. Buy it. Pull a smash and grab on a book store.
Whatever. Then lock yourself in with some munchies and read it.  As
they say in Hawaii, "Da kine, bro".

                        chris
                        decvax!vortex!ism780!chris
                        ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!chris

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 85 08:59:30 EDT
From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst <JAROCHA-ERNST@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: The Bradbury - Lao Connection

What your friend is probably thinking of is an anthology edited by
Bradbury that included "Dr. Lao".  In the mid-60s, when MARTIAN
CHRONICLES really took off, Bantam Books released a series of
uniformly packaged Bradbury paperbacks, including the anthology (the
name of which... ).  I remember being disappointed when I learned he
only edited it, but I *loved* "Dr. Lao".

And remember "The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao" with Tony Randall as
everybody?  It's been years and years, but I recall neat Jim
Danforth stop-motion animation and great make-up on Tony!  Too bad
they threw in the "evil robber baron" plotline, though...

Chris

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: "The Stuff"
Date: 23 Aug 85 05:23:23 GMT

     I do not believe that a film has to be perfect in order to be
enjoyable.  In fact, I'm willing to live with major flaws in some
areas if a film provides enough pleasures in others.  "The Stuff" is
a case in point.  There are several rather important things wrong
with "The Stuff", but it has some interesting quirks that were
enough fun to allow me to, if not overlook the flaws, at least enjoy
the film.

     "The Stuff" is a sf/horror/comedy/whatever film from the
fertile brain of Larry Cohen.  When last seen, Mr. Cohen offered us
"Q", a weird little number about a giant flying lizard which takes
up residence in the top of the Chrysler building in New York City;
that is, when it isn't flying around biting off peoples' heads.
What gave that film the extra twist it needed was that it focused on
an ex-junkie's attempts to extort a million dollars from the city in
return for his knowledge of the critter's whereabouts.  In "The
Stuff", somebody is marketing a dessert product that is actually a
parasite which takes over the bodies of those who eat too much of
it.  Since one of its early effects is to make you crave more of it,
that isn't too hard.  The perspective in "The Stuff" is from the
point of view of an industrial spy hired by the ice cream companies
to find out where The Stuff is coming from.

     Since Cohen came up with the basic idea and wrote the
screenplay, he receives both credit and blame for it.  Credit is due
for the dialog and some of the characters.  Blame accrues for the
poor plotting.  Cohen has three or four really good ideas, but he
doesn't develop any of them very well.  Practically as soon as he
presents one of them, he speeds off to the next, as if he expected
the audience to fill in all the details for him.

     Cohen's direction (and his part of the editing, which was
substantial), show the same tendencies.  He is very good with
characters, but not too good with action or suspense.  His editing
style is peculiar.  One of the great discoveries of early cinema is
that one can cut within a scene and allow a time lapse between the
two actions.  The classic example is when someone closes their
apartment door, then we cut to them entering their car.  The great
discovery was that you didn't have to show the person walking from
the door to the car.  Basically, the language of cinema allows
shortcuts.  You don't have to show everything.  However, very little
progress has been made over the years in compacting what still must
be shown to prevent disorientation in the audiences.  In other
words, the same shortcuts used in the thirties are used today.
Editors haven't found a way to trim even more, leaving greater
proportions to the audience's imaginations.

     Cohen knows this, but he doesn't care.  He cuts out stuff you
really have to leave in, anyway.  The effect is a momentary pause in
the viewer's mind while he wonders if the projectionist has shown a
reel out of order.  This happens four or five times in "The Stuff",
and there are lesser shortcuts which give the film the appearance of
having the hiccups.

     Cohen's handling of the actors is generally good, though,
particularly Michael Moriarty and Paul Sorvino.  Moriarty played the
twitchy ex-junkie in "Q", and his role here, as the not-so- good ol'
boy industrial spy, gives him a splendid chance to demonstrate what
a good actor he is.  At first glance, he is almost unrecognizable,
and he is completely convincing as the self assured operative who,
fundamentally, isn't very nice.  Moriarty is an endlessly inventive
actor, and his performance alone makes "The Stuff" worth seeing.
Paul Sorvino, another underutilized actor (his last part was playing
himself for a cameo in "Turk 182"), displays near-lunatic confidence
as an ultra-right wing paramilitary leader, who is much worse than
not nice.  One of the film's little ironies is that these two
unpleasant people, who normally one would prefer to see locked
tightly away in some prison, are the only ones capable of dealing
with the bizarre threat of The Stuff.  Garrett Morris is OK as a
Famous Amos clone who is pissed off because the distributors of The
Stuff stole his chocolate chip cookie company, but he disappears too
soon to be really effective.  Andrea Marcovicci has a rather poorly
written role, that of the advertising director for The Stuff who is
converted by Moriarty.  Patrick O'Neal has too little screen time
to make any impact as the amoral executive who distributes The
Stuff, despite his knowledge of the danger.

     "The Stuff" was made quickly and cheaply by a director who does
not have a strong visual sense, so it looks rather like TV movies.
The special effects are poor to mediocre.  In addition to the great
gaps in the story, the editing fails to provide even the slightest
suspense or excitement.  The score is forgettable, including the
advertising jingles for The Stuff.  There is relatively little
gore, which is somewhat surprising, considering that Cohen was the
man who gave us "It's Alive!"

     "The Stuff" is worth seeing, though, for its weird
sensibilities, a few interesting ideas (not very well carried out),
some good dialog, and fine acting.  Many worse films have made a lot
of money, so "The Stuff" might well have a chance of cleaning up.
If not, it will undoubtedly be a staple of midnight movie circuits
for years to come.
                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 85 21:55:25 PDT
Subject: re: re: Bladerunner soundtrack...almost

Although Vangelis [hollowed be thy name] did not wish to release the
soundtrack to _Blade Runner_ it was recreated by a record producer.

BUT!  The song 'Memories Of Green' can be found in it's original
form on the album 'See You Later'.
        [Cut three - Side One]

Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
                crash!victoro@nosc   or   crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 09:52 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Music & SF

Excuse the tardiness but I have spent a fair portion of this p.m.
ploughing through the last 60+ issues of SFL.

I am amazed that no_one has mentioned what I have long felt to be
the finest SF song I have ever heard "Space Odyssey" by the Byrds
(off Notorious Byrd Brothers 1968).  This is a retelling of Arthur
C.  Clarke's "The Sentinel" to a folk-ish melody against an
electronic drone (Beaver & Krause as I recall) Lyrics when I have
refreshed my memory.

While speaking of The Byrds I was reminded by someone else of Mr.
Spaceman - another fine song that dumps all over Bowie's Starman on
a similar theme.

The MC5 track referred to is Starship off Kick out the Jams.

Hardly a major theme but as I recall the last man alive on the earth
in Childhood's End finally satisifes his ambition to be the finest
pianist in the world and sits playing Bach waiting for the end.

          deryk.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 85 14:07:22 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: The development of technology and science

ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa      writes:
> Wars are probably the greatest motivation for technology in
> mankind's history.  Look at how much money was spent for R & D
> during W W II.  Look at the results of the short period between
> 1935 and 1945.  The A bomb, the suborbital rocket, the computer,
> and radar, all developed during that brief period

     War does not promote technological development.  The R&D during
WW II was mostly D, development, of current ideas and knowledge into
means of destruction.  It was not new break thoughs, but adaptation
of what was known at the time.  The atom bomb was from work done by
scientists in the 1920.
     Real technological progress comes from both development, and
research.  Just pure research does not benifit a society.  Just pure
development can not be substained for long.  Both are needed.  War
helps neither.  Or more correctly the only benefit of war is the
protection of the society progressing.

     Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 01:05:54-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #342

>  But I'm also secure enough to recognize that some people have put
>  a lot of work into reading the "Cantos" and are deeply rewarded
>  for their efforts. It's just not my cup of tea. Why do you and
>  some of your cohorts of a similar mind in this group refuse to
>  grant us "Art Snobs" a similar courtesy?

My first impressions of this firefight were that various "Art Snobs"
were not granting "Good-Read Snobs" (to use a parallel term without
intending either term to be especially accurate) that right; that
they were being rather extreme in their claims that the standards of
"Art" were the only worthy ones.  Since then, much umbrage has been
given, and much taken; probably most of the lack of courtesy is
reaction to excessive nastiness of the other side.  It can't be
intended personally, for we are all of us honorable men.

Of course, the battle has been going on for longer than this
newsgroup has existed, and probably predates half of the world's
major religions as well.  (-; maybe it is one of them ;-)

But then, we're having fun trying to stuff each other in our
favorite teacups.

Pax VAXque vobiscum,
   Bard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 85 1005-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #348
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 348

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & Brin & Hubbard & Niven &
                      Tolkien (2 msgs),
              Films - Quatermass,
              Miscellaneous - Contacting Writers (3 msgs) &
                      Storm Troopers (2 msgs) & Critics & 
                      Filk Song

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 10:02 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: HHGTG

2 points:

1) there certainly never was a 13th episode of the radio series
made.  The 12th episode, ending with Arthur stealing Zaphods
spaceship (is this right?)  and Peter Jones asking "Will there ever
be another series of that remarkable programme", first broadcast in
the UK in January 1979 was definitely it.

2) dunno about episode six (and I will check this tonight) but the
rest of the background music - certainly in the first radio serial -
was not Jean Michel Jarre but was Terry Riley.  Excerpts from "A
Rainbow in Curved Air" and "Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band" were
used extensively behind Peter Jones as the book informing.  Frankly,
given the extremely derivative nature of JMJ's music, I wouldn't be
at all surprised to find that the music in episode 6 was Riley also.
For the tv series and records this was ditched (presumably because
of royalties) and special background music was composed by Tim
Souster; who also did an electronic arrangement of Bernie Leadon's
"Journey of the Sorceror" - also presumably to cut down on royalty
payments.

          deryk.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 85 09:47:23 PDT (Friday)
From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: David Brin and uplifting gorillas

     David Brin is working on a novel called "The Uplift War" which
is suppose to come up around July 1986.  It was going to come out
the end of this year, but he co-authored a book on Halley's comet
which will be out in a couple more months.

     Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 17:32:05 PDT
From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard

The story was told me as follows: many of the then-new (now rich and
famous) Science Fiction authors were sitting around griping about
how they weren't making any money.  Then Heinlein or someone said,
"Well, you KNOW the only way to make money these days is to found a
new religion or invent a new therapy."  At which point, Hubbard got
a funny look in his eye, dashed out of the room, and the rest is
history...  (Naturally, I have no idea if this is true, but it sure
makes a better story than some Hubbard's written!)

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Fri Aug 30 11:37:38 1985-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <taw@s1-c.arpa>
Subject: Planetary maps on the Ringworld

Given that the Pak Protectors built the Ringworld, and that there
are maps of Earth, Mars, Down, Kzin, etc. in one of the large (boy
is *that* an understatement) oceans, one might also suspect that
there would be a "map" of the Pak homeworld there.  This would be
reasonably conclusive proof that it was indeed the Pak that built
the Ringworld, as the other maps were of planets in the immediate
neighborhood of the Ringworld, but the Pak homeworld was much closer
to the galactic core, and therefore unlikely to be visited by the
STL ramships.  Unless that was where those ships originally came
from.

I recall (but don't have my copy of Ringworld Engineers handy to
check) that one of the maps was listed as "Unknown".  Perhaps that
is the map of Pak.  I wonder what might be there.

Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)
MILNET: <taw at MORDOR> <taw at S1-C>
UUCP:   ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw  ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: new books from Sherri Tepper
Date: 30 Aug 85 20:54:31 GMT

This month brings two new books from Sherri Tepper:
_The_Search_of_Mavin_ Manyshaped_ and _Jinnian_Footseer_.
(Interesting to note that the first is from her previous publisher,
but JF is from Tor--anybody know anything about this?)

I enjoyed both.  In TSoMM we are at that time 20 years after the
events in _The_Song_of_Mavin_Manyshaped_ when Mavin and Himmagery
are supposed to meet.  Except he's not there.  A message from
Windlow is, however, and after meeting with Windlow, Mavin sets out
on a search for Himmaggery.  The book leaves us at a point sometime
before Peter's birth.

JF is the story of the Jinnian up to the point where she and Peter
are about to go off together.  There is a great deal about Jinnian
here, she has many unexpected and previously unencountered qualities
that help explain why she turned out not to be the pampered,
protected young woman we might have expected her to be, considering
where she was educated.  Her side of the trip and the battle is told
(including some explanation about the groles she was nearly eaten
by).  A most interesting feature of JF is the description of
wise-art, and how Jinnian comes to learn wise-art; although there is
no explanation of exactly why sevens are only made up of women, I
have a feeling this is supposed to be akin to witches--but as to
dervishes...er, well, no more spoilers.

There was a hint that there might be more books after JF--perhaps a
third trilogy?

As Peter's stories were in a different voice from the bubbling,
bouncing rhythyms in Mavin's, Jinnian too has a different voice.

L S Chabot    ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 85 12:09 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names

Tolkien was a philologist-- a student of the structure and history
of language.  As such, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that
he was well aware of the differences between oral and written story
telling styles.  Much of The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings and
almost all of The Silmarillion has the "feel" of oral history about
it-- the type of thing that the bard, sage, or historian might tell
in the feasting hall after the mead had been passed around.
Furthermore, the I know nothing about it, but the Icelandic (?? I've
deleted the original message) tale that the dwarves' names were
derived from sounds as if it were originally an oral history that
only later got written down for posterity.  The rhythmic, rhyming
"flow" of names is a device found frequently in stories from an oral
tradition and most probably serves as a mneumonic device to aid in
preserving the names in memory.  It is just another indicator of the
differences between our cultures that these lists of names seem

> silly and invented for their alliteration and rhyming

to us.

I might also add that in taking these characters from an earlier
story and building a new story around them ( a sort of "further
adventures of Thorin and the Dwarf gang") Tolkien was doing
something that was VERY traditional for creative oral storytellers
to do-- an idea that probably amused him quite a bit.

Finally, from some biography or other on Tolkien, I remember that
The Hobbit was originally designed to be a story for Tolkien's
children and was initially published as a children's book.  In fact,
he had some trouble with TLOTR when he went to publish it because it
WASN'T a children's book.

I think it's a tribute to the man's greatness that his books tend to
work both verbally and in written form, and appeal to both very
young children and to very profound adults.  Hey, is this ART, or
what??

--Chris
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 85 12:16 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Spaking of Tolkien. . .

By the way, while we're on the subject, I'm looking for a NICE,
preferably illustrated copy of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings
to give as a wedding gift.  I know there is a decent illustrate
edition of TH still in print, but I'd like something older.  I've
heard that at one time or another there was an edition published
with Tolkien's own illustrations; does anybody have information on
that?  Just out of curiosity, anybody know how much a first edition
HOBBIT might go for?  Any other suggestions would be welcome.

(I know about book searches, etc. but I'm moving soon and I've been
having some trouble with the local book dealers.  I'd just like to
know what you all know about.  If anyone has something they might
like to sell, let me know, I'll think about it.)

Reply to me presonally,

--Chris
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 09:54 MST
From: Deryk Barker <DBarker%PCO@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Quatermass & the pit

This movie (originally - as all the Quatermass films - a tv serial
in Britain) seems also to have been the inspiration for the Dr.  Who
story (title forgotten) set in Devil's End.  Someone else can
doubtless remember the fine detail, but Jon Pertwee was the doctor
at the time.  Must have been shown in England in about 1971.
          deryk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 09:10:00-PDT
From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Contacting writers

        I believe the preferred method of contacting a writer is
through the publisher.  Address the letter to the publisher and
request that it be forwarded to the author.  Publishers seem to be
pretty reliable about getting the things through to the writer in a
short time.

        But for those who already know how to contact a writer (in
this example McCaffrey), I would plead on their behalf that the
information stay off the net.  There is a good reason for letting
the publisher serve as an indirect address.
                                                ... ron cain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 14:59 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Time tested way to contact author of choice

...is to write to thon care of thon's publisher.  I have started my
correspondence with McCaffrey, Norton, Asimov, and others just that
way.  Many authors are very polite in responding to fanmail.  Harlan
Ellison has ignored folk, and sent out a form letter due to time
pressures.  Asimov uses postcards, for the same reason. If the
author was at a convention you recently attended, write to them care
of the concommittee.  Publishers are frequently less busy, and may
forward your letter faster.
                Marina Fournier

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: How to contact Anne MacCaffrey??
Date: 30 Aug 85 02:32:19 GMT

donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes:
>Does anyone in netland know how to go about contacting her or the
>author of one's choice?

I gues I am doomed, DOOMED you hear me, *doomed*! to post this every
couple of months....  You can get whatever address is best used to
write to an author by going to (or calling) your reference
librarian.  There is a wonderful book which she will have (haven't
met any male ones yet, perhaps there is a sex-linked characteristic
for knowing everything and smilingly listening to dumb questions)
which can give you what you need.  Sometimes it is just the agent's
address, but often it is the author's real live home address.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms
Date: 30 Aug 85 10:28:28 GMT

slerner@sesame.UUCP (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) writes:
>To combine a few of the earlier ideas: There has been a recent
>advance in blaster technology (blasters are obviously relatively
>new, since light sabers where in use 1 generation ago), and armor
>technology has not kept up.  Military bureaucracy always takes
>forever to catch up

I don't think so.  The light sabre was the traditional weapon of a
Jedi knight.  If you like, by using a weapon of limited range the
Jedi knight can demonstrate his superiority by defeating
better-armed enemies with an apparantly inferior weapon.  Think of
martial arts adepts defeating armed attackers bare-handed.  The
Force helps establish the mystique of the Jedi as well as providing
practical help in battle.

It's more likely that the blaster is the regular weapon of Imperial
troops because it is very simple to use (just hit the trigger and
wave it about like a sub-machinegun) and the Imperial soldiers,
being expendible conscripts, aren't worth training properly.

I wonder how much the Empire paid its suppliers for light bulbs (|+>
<smirk>) ?

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops
Date: 30 Aug 85 02:13:56 GMT

>  The Empire is a typical decadent power. Used to wasting all
> threats with great firepower. They got lazy.
>   It also seemed common for commanders to kill subordinates.  (ie
> Vader's attacks on various officers of his own fleet) Not a way to
> increase moral.
>  Only the fighter pilots seemed to have any skill and good
> equipment.
>    Elric

Remember the scene in *Star Wars* where the troops are conducting a
house-to-house search of the city, and the robots see them coming
and lock the door?  When the troops get to the door, they knock,
then one says, ``This one's locked, go on to the next.''  It seems a
bit odd for a totalitarian state to be stopped by a locked door....

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: "Anti-Art" snobbery"
Date: 28 Aug 85 14:30:48 GMT

> Science fiction is, as you say, the literature of ideas. Unlike
> other forms of literature the background has prominence over the
> characters.  Thus it is that very bad works of literature are very
> good SF. The occasional exceptional author can produce a book
> that's both good SF and "art".
>
> Peter da Silva
> UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
> MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

I respect your opinion on this, but it seems to me that, as the
"literature of ideas," the other requirements of the work
(characterization, quality of prose, etc) become stronger, not
weaker, lest the idea fail to get a fair hearing because the writing
itself puts one off the book.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: A-Filking we will go/
Date: 29 Aug 85 13:13:12 GMT

I Once Had a Sword (to Norwegian Wood) was written by Charlie Luce
and originally published by him in my apa, ALARUMS AND EXCURSIONS
(for FRPers).  The words are...

I once had a sword, or should I say...it once had me.
I just picked it up; oh what a sword!  It was plus three.
Its Ego was 12, a fact of which I wasn't aware.
When I wanted to leave I found that the sword didn't care.   Oh.....

I walked through the halls, wasting my time, nothing to find.
Then I turned a corner, and then I said, "Oh no, Undead!"
The 32 Wights saw me coming and started to laugh.
And I closed my eyes as my sword started hewing a path.   Oh.....

And when I awoke, I was alone; the sword had...flown.
Now I use a club.  Isn't it good?  No-Ego wood!

Lee Gold

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 85 0926-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #349
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 349

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Adams & Card & Hubbard &
                          Niven & Schmitz & Yolen & 
                          First SF,
                  Films - Fail Safe,
                  Music - Bambi Meets Godzilla,
                  Miscellaneous - Storm Troopers (3 msgs) &
                          Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.rutgers.edu (nyssa of traken)
Subject: The End of the World, Thursday 5ZSeptember, 1985!
Date: 2 Sep 85 13:37:02 GMT

Well, the bad news is that all signs point to the arrival of the
Vogon constructor fleets this Thursday, to wit:

In Life, the Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams forcast the
destruction of earth to occur the Thursday following a victory by
England in the test series for the Ashes against Australia in the
decade of the 1980's in England.

Today the English look pretty much assured of a major victory
(upset) against the Australians in the last test at the Oval.  It
may already be over as I am typing this.  Furthermore, the
Australians do not return for a test series for the Ashes to England
until 1990.

The actual destruction will taken place on the Thursday following
the Test at noon BST, 7AM on the East Coast (I will be driving to
work, my car stereo ought to be fixed by then, so I should hear the
notice clearly!).

So long folks, it looks like this is it.

PS A sofa did appear and disappear today at the Oval, interrupting
play.

I guess NJN won't be showing Hartnell, Troughton, & Colin Baker
after all.

James C. Armstrong, Jnr.        {ihnp4,cbosgd,akgua}!abnji!nyssa

------------------------------

From: grady@ucbmiro.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: Ender's Game (book)
Date: 1 Sep 85 20:33:03 GMT

Does anyone have thoughts about Orson Scott Card's new book, a novel
length version of "Ender's Game"?  I saw it in a bookstore..

        Steven

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!myke@topaz.rutgers.edu (Myke Reynolds)
Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" sound track...
Date: 3 Sep 85 02:44:58 GMT

I spent a lot of time at a local planetarium when I was in
highschool, and one of the technicians used to go out and buy 100's
of bucks worth of silly albums.  She and I would listen to them,
looking for useful noises for planetarium shows, and giggle a lot..
One day she came back with the soundtrack to the afore mentioned
book.. "A sound track to a book??" I thought it sounded really tacky
at the time, lots of over dramatic voices.. Sounded like a
bastardized opera..  I'm biased however.. My step-father is very
much into scientology (founded by one and the same L. Ron Hubard..)
He spends thousands of dollars on these scientology classes and wont
even pay for my mother's glaucoma operation..  It makes me nauseous
just thinking about all the money this scum ball must be making off
of this stuff.. I read a portion of the book when I went to visit my
mother last summer, if you are aware of them there are references to
scientology all through the book.. The only reference I can remember
now is the thing about MEST, matter, energy, space and time.. which
are all separate things according to Mr. Hubard.. Of what religious
value this is I do not know..

I would be quite happy if this whole movie business was a monsterous
flop..

Myke Reynolds
Office of Telecommunications and Networking
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!myke

------------------------------

From: lumiere!davest@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Stewart)
Subject: Re: Known Space books
Date: 29 Aug 85 18:43:29 GMT

        In the back of "Tales of Known Space" is a complete
bibliography of the Known Space series as well as a time line for
the occurance of the stories, major events, etc.

David C. Stewart                       uucp:    tektronix!davest
Small Systems Support Group            csnet:   davest@TEKTRONIX
Tektronix, Inc.                        phone:   (503) 627-5418

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  2 Sep 1985 22:15:21-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ""Research Alpha"" by Schmitz & van Vogt

> From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
>      In nebulas.txt from Rutgers there is mention of a story
> "Research Alpha" by A. E. van Vogt & James Schmitz.  Does anyone
> know where the story appeared?  Also did any of James Schmitz's
> stories on Telzy appear outside of Analog?

"Research Alpha" first appeared in IF, July 1965. It was reprinted
in the Van Vogt collection MORE THAN SUPERHUMAN.

I don't think that any of the Telzey stories appeared outside of
ANALOG (except for the book appearances), but there are stories that
take place in the same universe (the Federation of the Hub) that
appeared elsewhere.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Jessica Amanda Salmonson
Date: 28 Aug 85 14:44:06 GMT

> One of my favorite pieces (in _Amazons_, I believe) is "Sister
> Light, Sister Dark" by Jane Yolen, who recently published the
> hauntingly lovely novel _The_Cards_of_Grief_ and who is known
> mainly for her children's books.
>
> jesse (ops@ncsc)

Just an enthusiastic endorsement of Jane Yolen in general, and CARD
OF GRIEF and "Sister Light, Sister Dark" in particular.
                -- SKZB

------------------------------

Date: Sun 1 Sep 85 17:15:36-PDT
From: Jeff Thompson <X-MAN@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: What should be your FIRST sf book ???

One of my friends is generally derisive of sf.  I think that she has
been exposed to too many "Creature Features" to take the genre
seriously.  Recently, however she agreed to read one sf novel of my
choice to "Give the stuff a chance".  I suggested "Lord of Light",
which she is reading now.

My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a representative
of all that is good in the field?  If not what would you suggest to
your friends given the same opportunity?

                -- Jeff T.

------------------------------

Subject: Fail Safe (slight spoiler)
Date: 01 Sep 85 01:04:24 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

My impression of Fail Safe is that it is such a powerful story, with
such extreme relevance to today's world situation, that the odd
technical blunder in special effects (which I must confess I didn't
actually observe) hardly seems worth notice -- though one hopes they
wouldn't take that as a license to let the same mistakes go again.

Henry Fonda as the president, and Larry Hagman as the
Russian-language interpreter Peter Buck, give very impressive
performances.  Walter Matthau is chilling as the political sciences
professor Walter Grotoschele, who talks calmly of making a nuclear
war winnable, and wants to take advantage of the accident to "get
them before they get us": i.e., turn the accident into a genuine
first strike against Moscow.  Fritz Weaver plays the colonel in the
Omaha war room who freezes when given a presidential order to give
the Russians what they need to know to shoot down American bombers,
simply unable to obey.  Throughout, the film is a powerful look at
the interplay of strong and conflicting personalities thrust
together to try to resolve a situation of global impact, and also of
the consequences of abdicating too much responsibility to one's
tools (Grotoschele, for instance, honestly believes that humans can
take over as soon as something goes wrong in a computer's actions,
and would base a defense system on that belief).

A strong story, and the movie is an unusally faithful rendering of
the book.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: Bambi Meets Godzilla trivia (spoiler)
Date: 2 Sep 85 08:47:29 GMT

Does anyone know whether the chord at the moment Godzilla steps on
Bambi is from the last (long) chord in the Beatles' "Day in the
Life"?
        Steven

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms
Date: 01 Sep 85 00:26:32 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

I think the idea behind the armour is possibly more psychological
than physical: confront the enemy with battalions of human
(probably) killing machines, with a faintly insectlike appearance
about the face; demoralize and intimidate, and in many cases you'll
already have the battle halfway won.  The Empire appears to enjoy
this strategy of giving machines menacing, disturbing appearances
which are of no real mechanical advantage to the machines
themselves: look at the probe droid, or the walkers, especially the
big quadrupedal ones.  Those cockpits looked as if they had great
compound eyes on each side of them.  Intimidation and oppression is
the Empire's game, and not just with weaponry.  Though I imagine
that it's true enough about their being encumbered with bureaucracy,
and rules that exist simply because they always have done.

I see no real reason, though, to assume that blasters are
particularly modern; and I'm pretty certain that the use of
lightsabres could never have been common, since using them
effectively required training with the Force.  For the average
fighter, the blaster has probably been the weapon of choice for
quite a while.

I would imagine that the armour is still used because of its
demoralising appearance, and because it has a certain usefulness
against weaponry less powerful than blasters (garotting, gassing, or
drowning troopers would be just about impossible); and also because
its communications equipment provides immediate, personal contact
with every single trooper.  Furthermore, I doubt whether the Empire
much cares whether individual troopers get mown down by blaster
fire.  There are always more where they came from, and the Empire
usually attacks in masses anyway.

I agree about the economic use the Rebels must have to make of their
resources.  Better to concentrate on weaponry that actually reduces
enemy forces (like ion cannons, speeders, X-wings, etc.) than to
waste equipment on merely holding them off.  And psychological
warfare is not (or has not been) one of their strategies.

A previous message paraphrased, I believe, a remark of Kenobi's from
"A New Hope" about the "accuracy" of the stormtroopers' fire.
Considering the context, I think he just meant that they were more
accurate than Tuscan raiders with the blaster equivalent of
flintlocks.  Which they bloody well should have been, since they
were aiming at something the size of a barn, and which hardly moved
any faster than a barn.  Certainly he spoke of blasters being
"clumsy or random" when he first showed Luke Annakin's lightsabre.

Ever notice how the window-like nature of the Star Wars films so far
allows an enormous amount of speculation on subjects that the films
don't cover?

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms
Date: 30 Aug 85 16:35:55 GMT

A good many military uniforms are not intended to offer protection
against weapon fire.  Modern infantry uniforms are good examples.
They're just thick cloth -- good against mosquitos and scratchy
undergrowth, but not much of anything else.  I presume the reason
for this is that armour which protected against weapon fire would be
too bulky or expensive.

Suppose the Empire subscribes to the same philosophy -- the armour
should protect against minor irritations, but not to protect against
weapon fire.  Then the armour makes sense.  What sort of irritations
would the Empire face?  Extreme weather conditions are the most
obvious, and the armour clearly handles this -- in the Empire
Strikes Back, normal armour was sufficient for the Empire infantry,
so the armour obviously contains temperature control facilities.

Another minor (or not so minor) annoyance would be local bacteria.
The troops may well be sent to life-supporting planets at the drop
of a hat.  Who knows what kind of nasty diseases they might pick up
from indigenous microbes?  So they wear non-porous armour and
breathe through filters.  I dare say that this feature of the armour
is vastly more important than defense against weapons.  Firefights
are few and far between; alien germs are omnipresent.

One last function of uniforms is to encourage a psychological
separation between military and civilian life.  The army must create
a psychological climate in which inhumane acts are possible, and in
the Empire's case, they must also instill fear in the populace.  The
uniforms contribute admirably to this effect.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 85 14:04 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Empire Storm Troopers and Militarism

People wishing to delve deeper in this topic should read Alfred
Vagts' classic _Militarism_, in which he differentiates between the
military state of mind (exemplified by the Rebels) and the
militaristic (*really* exemplified by The Empire).  Basically, the
first is interested in results and the second is interested in
internal power games and pretty uniforms -- but there are many other
insights and historical examples in the book.

------------------------------

From: graffiti!peter@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Matter Transmission
Date: 31 Aug 85 16:17:55 GMT

>       Interesting question! I have a little thought experiment
> which might amuse anyone who's interested in the answer to it.
> Let's pretend that someone has invented a "matter transmitter", a
> device whereby a person can step in a transmitter in, say San
> Francisco, and step out of a receiver in London a fraction of a
> second later, having been transmitted from one to the other.
> However, it's not *really* a matter transmitter; physically
> sending the atoms that make up your body half-way round the world
> would not be economical. Instead, it simply sends all the
> *information* required to duplicate your body at the other end,
> using materials closer to hand. The result, nevertheless, is an
> exact duplicate down to the molecular level, with both the "mind"
> and the body not detectably altered.

[followed by some discussion about whether it's really the same
person, and describing a couple of possible accidents that could
lead to duplicates]

This has been bandied about by SF writers for years, with various
variants.  But let me throw in a couple more...

The machine knocks you out & chops you up like a side of beef at a
butcher's shop. At the other end an autodoc (ala niven) puts you
back together. Would you travel this way?

Comment: It's probably a lot more reliable than the matter
transmitter described above.

The machine breaks you down to individual cells and proceeds as
above.

The machine takes a brain recording and a cell sample & plays you
back into a clone.

The machine takes a scan but doesn't destroy the original.

My own conclusion: I'd want to be damn certain that the process
would be reliable before trusting my information to it.

Last thought: What would this do to manufacturing processes? To
farming? To Friends of the Earth or the Audubon Society (don't worry
about the whooping cranes, they're all on file).

Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could you ever
truly die?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 85 0950-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #350
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 350

Today's Topics:

            Books - Card & Cherryh & Hubbard (2 msgs) &
                    Lovecraft & Niven,
            Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game (book)
Date: 2 Sep 85 21:05:00 GMT

grady@ucbmiro.UUCP (Steven Grady) writes:

>Does anyone have thoughts about Orson Scott Card's new book, a
>novel length version of "Ender's Game"?  I saw it in a bookstore..

It's wonderful.  Bloody well *wonderful*.  And I liked it a whole
bunch, besides.

Charlie Martin
(...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: Cherryh vs. McCaffrey
Date: 27 Aug 85 14:35:55 GMT

> Give me McCaffrey any day, that way I won't have to think too
> much.
>
> All this may have something to do with why I only have all 23
> (24?)  of CJ Cherryh's books sitting on my shelf, but have an
> entire three of Anne McCaffrey's.

Sorry, McCaffrey may be simplistic but for the most part at least I
feel her characters and plots are much more interesting.  I always
read about Cherryh's books and think they sound like they should be
good.  Unfortunately, I am invariably disappointed.  While Cherryh's
worlds are fairly imaginative a societal description doesn't carry
the book for me.  My general feeling is that the characters are if
anything more simplistic than McCaffrey's and much less interesting.
The plots are usually dry and not gripping at all.  Characters evoke
very little empathy.  I have tried a number of Cherryh's and found
them all disappointing so now I generally give them a pass no matter
how interesting the description sounds.  This is, of course, all
purely personal judgements and preference.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: berman@isi-vaxa (Richard Berman)
Date: 3 Sep 1985 1519-PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Scientologists?

I hope this is the LAST message on Scientologists regarding
Battlefield Earth.  I didn't know that SF-LOVERS was also the RBIG
(Religious Bigotry Interest Group).  I just wanna hear about SF
matters -- not someone's notions about the validity of ANY religion.
Of course, there are those who argue that all religion is
brainwashing...

I get the impression from the two or three individuals writing such
messages that they feel the Scientologists (and, no doubt, the
Martians) are EVERYWHERE!!  So keep looking behind the pictures and
under the papers, because they're here someplace...

P.S. I did rather like Battlefield Earth.  If you didn't (or even if
you did), I don't see how this relates to Scientology.  I also like
Donaldson, and I actually felt I learned something about life and
especially about the "Despiser" from those books.  Is that
brainwashing?  After all, isn't ALL learning "brainwashing"? I
hereby formally suggest the abolishment of all forms of learning --
no, of all THOUGHT!  That's the culprit!  If only the masses would
just do as we say...

RB

------------------------------

From: ecrcvax!snoopy@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz)
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard
Date: 3 Sep 85 17:43:29 GMT

Well.  I read the following in a book by Isaac Asimov (one of his
anthologies). Now I have gathered that the net is not very keen on
Asimov in general, but this is a factual account.

It transpires that Laffayette Ron Hubbard and Isaac Asimov, were
both working with John W. Campbell (the editor czar).  Apparently
Isaac was waiting to be seen, when Laffy came storming out of
Campbells office (he was angry because his story presumably got
rejected) and raced out yelling: "One day I will invent a religion,
and get amazingly rich and show you guys !!".

So much for that.  Perhaps we should ask Ron. But then he is sailing
around the Mediterranean on his yacht, unable to take shore because
there are several european police forces who would like a word with
him for tax frauds amongst other things...

But then he seems peanuts against the leader of the "Oregonian"
Bhagwan sect, who wants to have a different Rolls Royce for every
day of the year. He currently has about 40, I think.

Folks, we are in the wrong business. You just don't make money the
honest way...

Love,
Sebastian (Snoopy)
mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy

------------------------------

From: warwick!req@topaz.rutgers.edu (Russell Quin)
Subject: Dreamquest/Lovecraft
Date: 3 Sep 85 16:17:16 GMT

I am looking (partly for a friend) for a copy of Dreamquest of
Unknown Kadath by H P Lovecraft.

Unfortunately, this appears to be unavailable in the UK.

Is there anyone who would be willing to post me a copy?  (funds are
available for reinbursement for the *first* copy sent... please mail
me first!!!)

Much gratitude will undoubtedly result from any help in this matter,
however small!

Thank you very much (in advance).

Russell
mcvax!ukc!warwick!req  (req@warwick.UUCP)

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.rutgers.edu (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Re: Protectors and Known Space Novels
Date: 3 Sep 85 10:12:24 GMT

okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>Now, for a list of Known Space Novels (in no particular order):
>       Ringworld
>       The Ringworld Engineers
>       A Gift from Earth
>       The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton
>       Tales of Known Space
>       World of Ptaavs
>       Protector
>       Down in Flames :-)

You seem to have missed out "Neutron Star" -- a collection of short
stories. Maybe that was only released in the UK though.

The Niven discussions have been very entertaining, and I'd like to
amplify what earlier posters have said. It would seem Niven has
"painted himself into a corner". He is now rigidly restrained in his
further stories by the Known Space framework -- and he probably
feels it is now such a complex structure he can't work with any
freedom within it. I suppose this is the ultimate fate awaiting
anyone who builds such a "Future History".

I'll get out of your way now .. thanks for reading ..

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  2 Sep 1985 18:43:22-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: anti-Art Snobbery

> From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly)
>>From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>>In *this* universe, DHALGREN lost the Nebula ...  Delany won a sum
>>total of four (4) Nebulas ...  He must be highly thought of in
>>SFWA, eh?  At last reckoning, the writers who've garnered the most
>>awards ... are ... [list] What does that tell you?
> What is it supposed to tell him? For that matter, what is it
> supposed to tell the rest of us?

It wasn't meant to be a rhetorical question, but if you want *my*
interpretation -

I mentioned that the authors who've won the most combined Hugo and
Nebula awards were Harlan Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Poul Anderson, and
Fritz Leiber. Now, without having exact numbers at my fingertips,
I'd guess that the division between Hugos and Nebulas was about
even.  that means that the writers choosing for "best literature"
and the fans choosing for "favorite" tend to have fairly similar
tastes.
        It might also be said to point out that fans can choose the
more literary authors (Ellison, LeGuin) just as easily as the
writers can and that the writers can choose the less literary
authors (Leiber, Anderson) just as easily as the fans.
        The point I read in the article to which I responded was
that because DHALGREN [supposedly] won a Nebula, it must be a
terrific work of art. I merely wished to refute that. He also
implied that because the Nebulas were chosen by writers rather than
fans, the winners of such are a more estimable lot. I wished to
refute that also.

>>I never got very far into DHALGREN, myself. I thought it was
>>twaddle.  So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact
>>that I liked ... [list of Delany's other works]

> If feeling like a persecuted 'anti-Art snob' is enjoyable, be our
> guest. But don't you think this is just a little bit paranoid,
> Jerry?

No, I don't. And I never said whether I enjoyed being a persecuted
anti-Art snob or even if I *considered* myself such. The original
poster seemed to feel there is an anti-Art snob conspiracy
abounding.  Isn't *that* just a little bit paranoid? *I* didn't
bring up the concept of the anti-Art snob. Turnabout is fair play.

>>There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought
>>up yet.  The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can
>>dislike a Work of Art without being branded as an
>>anti-intellectual fool.

> WHO sez 'the Art snobbery' (whatever that's supposed to be) has
> always been such? The endless stream of fantasies about how
> imaginary Critics are hounding the members of this group and the
> SF world in general is starting to get a little old, people. OK,
> Jerry, I'm calling you on this one: who exactly in this group or
> outside it has said that anyone who dislikes a Work of Art is an
> anti-intellectual fool? I can't recall even Davis Tucker going
> this far. If you knew anything at all about the Wonderful World of
> Criticism, you'd know that Critics disagree about which books are
> worth reading. Often and loudly.

No, no one has called anyone an "anti-intellectual fool" in so many
words, but hasn't that been the tone of Tucker's ravings, at least?
Hasn't he gone on at length about how sf fans and readers are
content to read [note: I don't have the previous SFL's to quote from
verbatim] soporific fiction of the likes of Asimov, Heinlein, et
alia, rather than the enlightening works of Literary Craftsmen?
Hasn't he, *in essence* called those who prefer to read Piers
Anthony rather than Jorge Luis Borges anti-intellectual fools?

>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply
>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing
>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see
>>why it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs that
>>someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid reasons*.

> Pure pony diarrhea. You want us to say maybe, "OK, Jerry, you say
> Dhalgren is twaddle, so it must be twaddle; after all, you're NOT
> a critic?" Saying you don't like it/couldn't get into it so there
> mustn't be anything there is hardly valid criticism. Fact is, a
> lot of people LIKE Dhalgren and find it a challenging and
> rewarding work. If you have valid reasons for thinking that these
> people are all Art Snobs who like Dhalgren only because some
> mysterious conspiracy of Critics told them they should, please let
> us know about it. I've never gotten into Ezra Pounds "Cantos"
> because I find them rough going and more than a little
> self-indulgent.  But I'm also secure enough to recognize that some
> people have put a lot of work into reading the "Cantos" and are
> deeply rewarded for their efforts. It's just not my cup of tea.
> Why do you and some of your cohorts of a similar mind in this
> group refuse to grant us "Art Snobs" a similar courtesy?

Where did I say that because I think DHALGREN is twaddle that there
isn't anything there? Where did I say that anyone who finds DHALGREN
a challenging and rewarding work is, *de facto*, an Art Snob. For
that matter, where do I rant and rave against Art at all?
        I like Art, too. I've read and enjoyed Borges and Marquez
(both in English *and* Spanish), Hesse and Kafka (both in English
*and* German), Calvino, LeGuin, Delany, Tiptree, Barth, et alia.  On
the other hand, I've never been able to make head nor tail out of
Joyce or Barthelme or any number of others. Likewise, I enjoy
reading Asimov, Clarke, Niven, Leiber, and others. And I don't care
for Anthony, Heinlein, Tolkien, and others. I don't consider myself
either an Art Snob or an Anti-Art Snob. And I'm willing to recognize
that someone can see something in a work of fiction that I can't.
People see can all sorts of things in anything. The poster to whom I
was responding, however, implied that by not liking DHALGREN, I was
obviously not trying hard enough to see its virtues. Maybe I wasn't,
but *maybe I was*. He shouldn't just *assume* the former.  In fact,
because I liked previous work by Delany, I was predisposed to liking
DHALGREN, but I found it wanting (or at least, what I read of it).

>>The only way someone can get away with not liking a Work of Art is
>>to say "It was an interesting experiment that failed" rather than
>>"It was a piece of self-indulgent nonsense". The end result is
>>that no one is willing to tell the Emperor about his new clothes.

> Either statement implies failure. The difference is that the first
> is sympathetic to the effort of an author to produce an intricate
> and serious work (800+ pages in the case of "Dhalgren"), and the
> second is hostile to the author's having missed the mark. Who's
> calling who a fool, Jerry?

I give up. Who?

> The effort and love that went into the writing of "Dhalgren" is
> obvious. If you think Delany failed, at least give the poor slob a
> little sympathy for having tried his best. It's obviously not a
> piece of hack work.

True, it's not, and I never said it was. I've seen many criticisms
of DHALGREN that called it many things, but I don't recall "hack
work" was any of them. Delany is a fine writer, and on the strength
of other novels and short stories, I *know* that he can produce fine
work. That still doesn't mean that he can't produce trash. And I
feel that it's *especially* discouraging that DHALGREN wasn't
better.
        But this brings up the point of whether anyone has the
"right" to call *anything* a piece of hack work. Can you truly say
that Piers Anthony puts less love and effort into writing any of his
books than Delany does into his? If so, why? Because he publishes
six times as many books per year?

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #342
Date: 3 Sep 85 13:45:13 GMT

BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA writes:
>My first impressions of this firefight were that various "Art
>Snobs" were not granting "Good-Read Snobs" (to use a parallel term
>without intending either term to be especially accurate) that
>right; that they were being rather extreme in their claims that the
>standards of "Art" were the only worthy ones.

My reactions have always been to extreme statements on the part of
the "Good-Read Snobs." Those of you with long memories will recall
that my first posting on quality and fiction predated the whole
Davis Tucker series that seems to have upset so many people in this
group, and was a reaction to Steve Brust's claim that most good
writing today is issuing from the pens (word processors?) of SF
writers. Since then, I've seen great hostility on both sides of the
fence. So please don't mislead newcomers to this controversy by
claiming that the initial extremity was perpetrated by an "Art
Snob." My OWN first impressions were that the "Good-Read Snobs"
started it; c'mon, fight like a mensch. :-)

>Since then, much umbrage has been given, and much taken; probably
>most of the lack of courtesy is reaction to excessive nastiness of
>the other side.  It can't be intended personally, for we are all of
>us honorable men.

You obviously haven't seen the nasty mail messages I've occasionally
received. :-)

>But then, we're having fun trying to stuff each other in our
>favorite teacups.

One man's nastiness is another's debating style. As I pointed out in
one of my innumerable postings on this subject, one can be critical
of something and still like it. Why, some of my best friends voted
for Reagan in the last election (I wouldn't want my sister to marry
one, though :-).
                       -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 85 1113-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #351
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 351

Today's Topics:

                Books - Delany & Niven & Rosenberg &
                        L. Neil Smith & Tolkien & Yates &
                        First SF Book,
                Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) &
                        Contacting Authors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 85 08:19:15 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Hoffman.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Ellison on Dhalgren

I knew I had saved this, but, since I've just moved, it took me a
while to find it.  From the Los Angeles Times, February 23, 1975
(yes '75):

                 BREAKDOWN OF A BREAKTHROUGH NOVEL
                         By Harlan Ellison
        "Dhalgren" by Samuel R. Delany (Bantam Books: $1.95)

   The millenium is at hand and, to quote Gulley Jimson in "The
Horse's Mouth," "It's not the vision I had."  Speculative fiction
has been banging down the barriers of the ghetto for 20 years and
apologists of the idiom have been saying, "Just wait till the
important novels of human conflict are written utilizing the tools
of science fiction.  Just wait!  Then you'll see some dynamite
literature."  Well, I was one of the prime shouters, and some of
those novels have been published in the last few months, and frankly
I feel as if my mouth ought to be washed out with a copy of "The
Charterhouse of Parma."

   Probably the most anxiously awaited of these promised "big"
novels intended to merge SF with the mainstream, written not by
academic dabblers or best-seller-list poseurs but by Our Crowd, was
"Dhalgren" by Delany.  Of all the post-New Wave writers, young
Delany had the most stuff going for him: consummate storyteller,
poet, four-time Nebula award winner, au courant, flashy stylist;
hell, he'd even been published in New American Review.

   Rumors of its length, the depth of its perception, the range of
its subject matter have circulated in the world of the fantasy
writers for a fistful of years: it's huge, more than 300,000 words;
it synthesizes everything Chip Delany was going for in "The Einstein
Intersection" and "Nova"; it's sexually explicit in a way the
genre's never been.  Then came delays, and the book was always
coming, coming, coming.  The rumors grew more interesting.  Chip
refuses to sell it to any publisher who won't guarantee it'll be
released uncut; Chip won't let anyone edit a word of it; Chip's had
to change the title from "Brodecky" to "Dhalgren"; Chip's book has
been turned down by all the hardcover houses.

   Now "Dhalgren" is with us, all 879 pages of it, and the questions
are answered.  Who could have known that all the answers would be
unsatisfying?

   For "Dhalgren" is a tragic failure.  An unrelenting bore of a
literary exercise afflicted with elephantiasis, anemia of ideas and
malnutrition of plot and character development.  It is a master
talent run amuck, suiciding endlessly for chapter after chapter of
turgid, impenetrable prose.

   I must be honest: I gave up after 361 pages.  I could not permit
myself to be gulled or bored any further.  Realizing from the git-go
that the opening lines of the novel would tie into the closing
lines, forming one of Laocoonian Moebius gimmicks considered too
hoary for use 30 years ago, the travels of the nameless hero with
one sandal did not seem sufficiently enriching to permit my engaging
in the reading of the book as a career.  Others who leaped on the
first available copies of the novel, as I did, who began reading it
avidly, as I did, who began breathing raggedly and faltered in the
sprint, as I did, have assured me the book goes nowhere, does
nothing, says nothing, and is sunk to its binding in mythological
symbolism that is both flagrant and embarrassing.  Three hundred and
sixty-one pages had delivered me of the same conclusions.

   It is possible the trendy and the impressionable who conceive of
"great" books as being those that are sententious and muddled may
take to "Dhalgren" in cult as did the poor saps who think "Stranger
In a Strange Land" is a hot item.

   But for those of us who have read Delany's previous work, who
have admired it and who have rooted for him, hoping "Dhalgren" would
be the breakthrough novel that won for him and for science fiction
all the legitimacy for which both have been crying . . . this sorry
compendium of pointless ramblings is a dry hole over which we will
weep and wail for years to come.

- - - -

[ellipsis in the original]

I had saved this all these years because it captured my own sense of
disappointment at the time, though I did read the entire book, and I
got a handful of tidbits worth savoring.  Even disappointed, I could
not give up so quickly on a writer whose earlier work had touched me
and taught me so much, and I'm glad I didn't.  I continue to be a
strong fan of Delany's writing, both fiction and criticism.  I still
"leap on the first available copy" of his every new work and I've
enjoyed much of it.  And, yes, I still await the "breakthrough
novel" I think he can produce.

-Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Re: Fate of the Protectors of Home
Date: 30 Aug 85 20:04:14 GMT

peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA
>>      As I remember the story, (and this may be faulty) the Home
>> Protectors were going off to fight the Pak, at the speed of
>> light.  At
>
>...at nearly the speed of light...
>
>> that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster
>> than the speed of light yet.  So the Home Protectors spent two
>> hundred years traveling to fight the Pak, hopefully beat the Pak,
>> and then another two
>
>...slightly less than 200 years because the Pak were cming towards
>them as well...
>> hundred years to come back.  This would explain the lack of
>> interaction between the Home Protectors and the human race.
>for a while when Louis Wu was born (he was his foster-father, see
>"Borderlands of Sol"), and Louis was 200 years old at the time of
>Ringworld. This comes to well over 400 years after Protector.

   Well, this all also forgets the fact that Protectors are a
*methodical* bunch. They would almost certainly make utterly certain
that there are no more Pak waves comming in. This would require
quite a lot of time since they would have to go quite far towards
the Pak planet to find out. Besides, I decided the obvious way of
deciding this question was to ask Larry Niven himself, after all he
is the one who wrote the story. I didn't have a chance to get much
detail, but he said that the Home Protectors are still out there,
every one of them.  So for whatever reason they *haven't* gotten
back yet.

>>      Maybe the next story will be about how thousands of Home
>> Protectors deal with the human race?

   Well, bad news, Larry Niven has said he is through with the Known
Space series, since it is too big to be maintained consistantly
anymore. So there won't *be* a "next story".

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen
ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sat 31 Aug 85 23:14:59-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@r20.utexas.edu>
Subject: re: Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame

  Yes, a third book has come out.  It's title is "The Silver Crown".
I have have read it but only vaguely remember the plot so I can't
really describe it too well...
                --Doug Good

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Sep 85 12:07:28-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith

There is a new book out in the Probability Broach series.  It is
called The_Gallatin_Connection and it fits sort of at both ends of
the time-line (40 years after Tom_Paine_Maru and 210 years before
The_Proability_Broach.  Those of you who read TPB, will realize that
it puts it right at the Whiskey Rebellion.  It's not bad, but I
don't think it's as good as the others (definitely not as good as
TPB).  Smith takes what I consider to be some unwarranted cheap
shots at historical figures whom he doesn't like.

Evan Kirshenbaum

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Speaking of Tolkien. . .
Date: 04 Sep 85 11:31:24 EDT (Wed)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>
Cc: Miller.pasa@xerox.ARPA

>By the way, while we're on the subject, I'm looking for a NICE,
>preferably illustrated copy of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings
>to give as a wedding gift ... does anybody have information ...
>anybody know how much a first edition HOBBIT might go for?  Any
>other suggestions ... (If anyone has something they might like to
>sell, let me know, I'll think about it.)
>
>Reply to me presonally,

Except for the for-sale information, I'd appreciate it if replies to
this would go out on the net.  Either that, or maybe Chris, you
could summarize for the net.  Good illustrations, first editions,
other suggestions -- I think these are of fairly wide interest.

Thanks.
  Burgess <allison@mitre>

------------------------------

From: decvax!minow@topaz.rutgers.edu (Martin Minow)
Subject: Deus ex machina
Date: 4 Sep 85 01:32:38 GMT

The following quotation is from W. R. Yates's book, Diasporah (Baen
Books, 1985):

    "Excuse me, Dr. Greenberg," said a woman's voice, "but I was told
  to wake you in time for dinner."
    Paul jerked from his sleep, but relaxed when he [discovered that]
  the voice was coming from the computer's vox box....
    "Good evening, Gollum," he said.
    "Good evening," returned the emotionless vox box.
    "I've been wanting to talk to you,"  Paul said.
    "Really? What about?"
    "During the Shabbos service on the [space ship] Harpo Martz,"
  Paul said, "you were saying something on the screen.  What was it?"
    "Like any good Jew, I was participating in the service."
    "But you're a computer!" Paul answered.
    "And I am a sentient, rational being, capable of making my own
  decisions," the voice said.  "By that definition, I have a soul."
    "Oh," Paul answered.
    [Paul walks downstairs and encounters his host, Dr. Goldstein:]
    "Hello Paul," said Dr. Goldstein.  "How was the nap?"
    "Quite good," declared Paul.  "I feel quite a bit better."
    "You look somewhat confused, Dr. Greenberg.  Is something the
  matter?"
    "Your computer told me that it's a Jew."
    Goldstein laughed.
    "Are all of your computers Jewish?"
    "It depends on how sophisticated they are," explained [Dr.
  Goldstein's daughter] Shoshanna, bringing a covered tray from the
  kitchen.  "Sooner or later, the computer runs up against the
  concepts of morality, and since our concepts are codified the
  Talmud, we insert a memory of it.  From that point on, all of our
  computers have behaved in a perfectly moral fashion.
    "Sometimes, when working on a complex problem, the logic can be
  a little obtuse, but the computer always has a rational
  explanation -- in terms of the Talmud."

How (theologiclly) realistic is this?

PS: there are two words used in Diasporah that I know to be Swedish
("narkoman" for drug addict and "dator" for computer).  Are these
words found in Hebrew also?

PPS: I know the title of this note is slightly inappropriate, but it
appears to be a valid criticism of the book as literature -- unless
the second half is much better than what I've read so far.

Martin Minow
decvax!minow

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 3 Sep 85 14:21:16 GMT

X-MAN@SRI-NIC.ARPA writes:
>My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a representative
>of all that is good in the field?  If not what would you suggest to
>your friends given the same opportunity?
>                -- Jeff T.

Having thought about this problem a long time, my answer is "Flowers
for Algernon" (by D.Keyes).  It is inventive, well-written,
effective, and approachable.  It is undeniably SF, but a far cry
from space opera, almost sure to dispel any mistaken beliefs about
what SF has to be.  In addition, it does not require any background
in the field -- for example, you don't have to know what FTL is and
why it's important to many stories.  Besides, the story is a great
tear-jerker without being sucky about it.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed 4 Sep 85 10:28:25-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #346

> From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
> One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how long
> is the author remembered?  This isn't one hundred percent; not
> matter how hard I try I cannot convince myself that Cooper was
> writing great literature.  BUT--what writer who is remembered and,
> more, STILL READ after a hundred years failed to write stories or
> books that were fun to read?

Just to be obnoxious, the author of Pilgrim's Progress (Bunyan?  If
I can't get his name right, my claim's a lot weaker).  I've never
heard of anyone who liked Pilgrim's Progress, and I hang around
English professors a lot.

Most people don't read it voluntarily, though.

Pax VAXque vobiscum,

   Bard

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Sep 85 13:56:32 PDT
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Critics and art

I composed a response to Mr. Brust's reply to one of my recent
messages.  Since it weighed in at over 100 lines, I'll just include
the last paragraph here, and send the whole gargantuan mess to Mr.
Brust.

My point, before and now, is that one must beware of those who claim
that readability is a *necessary* criterion for artistic greatness.
Essentially, what I'm saying is this: I read a book, work hard at it
because it isn't an easy book to read, get blown away by it, and
tell people that it's a great book.  They come back and say, "It
isn't easy, so you're wrong."  Moreover, they refuse to consider the
possibility that expending more effort might convince them that
there is something to my point of view.  I can accept that some
people do not want to spend effort on reading, that they read to
relax and hear a good story, but I do object to having them then
tell me that their criteria for art are better than mine, and that
is precisely what some people have been saying.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  5 Sep 85 00:36:00 EDT
From: Thomas Young Galloway <TYG@MIT-MC.ARPA>

For Ghu's sake, don't write to a concom to request an author's
address! As a former Programming Chief for Philcon (i.e. the one who
has the addresses), I a) would not have had time to send out
addresses to any large number of people since I was busy getting out
100 plus thank you letters to the authors b) would not have done it
since most likely a SASE would not have been enclosed, and c) would
feel that it is an invasion of author's privacy and would turn you
down anyway.

If you meet an author at a con, why not ask him/her for their
address? Or send it through their publisher.  But consider why you
want to contact the author.  If it's just to say "Gee, I really
enjoyed your book, Attack of the SlimeMold, it might be a good idea
if the writer is a relative newcomer and might like this feedback.
In the case of Anne McCaffrey, who has almost a pseudo religion
built up around dragons, this has been said to her at least several
thousand times.  And reading it again will only waste time that she
could be spending writing.

This principle applies to all well known sf writers. Remember
there's one of them and thousands of readers.  And as far as making
a request of a concom, remember that they are all volunteers, and
giving out authors' addresses has nothing to do with running a
convention.  And since they are usually at least on an acquaintance
basis with convention guests, they'll probably consider the author's
privacy to be fairly important.

tom galloway

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Sep 85 1150-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #352
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 352

Today's Topics:

                Books - Baldwin & Hubbard (2 msgs) &
                        Tolkien & Request for Reviews &
                        First SF Book (3 msgs),
                Films - Back to the Future,
                Television - Tripods,
                Miscellaneous - Star Wars (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: Helmsman by Bill Baldwin
Date: 3 Sep 85 22:56:12 GMT

This is a very good space opera/adventure story. It involves a young
man from a looked-down-upon world who receives his first commission
in the space navy. The setting is a galactic empire at war, and the
author makes some effort to explain the technology of the times.
The main character is a helmsman (pilot) interested in advancing his
career, and he has a lot of initiative (similar to Horatio
Hornblower of historical fiction fame). The known galaxy in the
novel contains various sentients, and part of the story has to do
with alien friendships which develop.

The story is fast-paced, and I found the characters appealing and
interesting. I'd rate this 3.5 stars on a scale of BOMB to 4, and I
look forward to at least one sequel.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 275-0302

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard's sf
Date: 4 Sep 85 18:07:29 GMT

I heard that all of L. Ron Hubbard's sf books (from before his
religion founding phase--not talking about B.E.) were bought up by
the scientologists and destroyed.  They were evidently concerned
that people would not believe their drek if they knew their founder
was a sf writer.

Is this true?  If so, it would explain why I have never seen any old
LRH at my local used sf bookstores.  There are some, like "Fear",
and "Typewriter in the Sky" which are supposed to be classics, and
which I would like to add to my collection.

I wouldn't buy them new--I know who would get the money.

------------------------------

From: ALAN@NCSUVM.BITNET
Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" sound track...
Date: 4 Sep 85 13:41:16 GMT

Must everything be taken as RELIGIOUS?  Could Mr. Hubbard have,
being of sound mind, written a book just for the pleasure of writing
a book??

Alan Clegg
USMail: 2801-23 Brigadoon Drive
Raleigh, NC  27606
Net:    ALAN@NCSUVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Bell: (919) 851-3246           ALAN@NCSUVAX.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

------------------------------

From: drutx!jca@topaz.rutgers.edu (ArnsonJC)
Subject: More on Tolkien
Date: 4 Sep 85 22:16:54 GMT

***In reply to inquiries about Tolkien illustrated copies:

        My copy of 'The Hobbit' is a 1966 edition, 24th printing,
and is illustrated by the author.  It was published by Houghton
Mifflin Co., Boston.

        'The Lord of the Rings', 1967 (first American edition) has
no illustrations, but the maps are drawn by Tolkien.  same publisher

        'Tom Bombadil', 1962, and 'Smith of Wooton Major', 1967 are
both illustrated by Pauline Baynes.  These are both first editions
and therfore, I believe that Tolkien had the final say in approval
of the illustrations before publication.

***More on Tolkien's sources:

        It is well know in literary circles that Tolkien was not
only a noted philologist (sp?), an Oxford don, assisted in
compilation of the Oxford English Dictionary, but was also
considered one of the formost 'Beowulf' critics of this century.

        The concept of ring giving for favors rendered is very
prevalent in 'Beowulf'---->Sauron gave rings of power as bribes
        Unferth, who sat at Hrothgar's feet---->Wormtongue
        Hrothgar---->Theoden
        Hrunting, Unferth's sword---->Narsil, Aragorn's sword
        the sword that Beowulf uses to kill Grendel's mother---> the
Morgul blade and the sword of the Barrow Downs
        the dragon in 'Beowulf'--->Smaug
        Scyld's funeral boat---Boromir's funeral boat
        etc.

****    The language of Rohan is very similar to Old English(OE).

        Eo, a preface to many Rohanian names--> OE 'eoh'- horse
        Ridermark-->OE 'ridda'-horseman 'mearc'-boundry
        Theoden--> OE '"t"eoden'-prince or king   "t"-unprintable
letter
        Ornthac--> OE 'or"t"anc-skillfull contrivance
        Isengard--> OE 'isen'-iron, 'geard'-dwelling
        Ent--> OE scion or graft of a tree
        etc.
These entries were all found in the Oxford English Dictionary.

                        jill c. arnson
                        ihnp4!druky!drutx!jca

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: I want to see book reviews!
Date: 3 Sep 85 22:42:24 GMT

How about posting your impressions of new SF? I'm sure there are a
lot of SF readers out there, but net.sf-lovers seldom seems to have
anything about new books. I read a lot of SF and am willing to write
a few paragraphs about some of the new stuff I read, and I'd like to
see others do the same. I'm particularly interested in works by new
authors, since those are the ones I'd be most prone to overlook.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 275-0302

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??
Date: 3 Sep 85 15:38:00 GMT

Lord of Light is *my* all-time favorite SF book; I've read it more
than any other single book.  However, it is somewhat unconventional,
poetic to the point of being lyrical, and is not the cup of tea for
many of my friends who do read SF.  Other titles I recommend to
first time readers are (in no particular order):

Startide Rising
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (but keep them away from most of
                              Heinlein's other crud.)
A Canticle for Liebowitz
Tea With the Black Dragon

and occasionally, depending on personality of prospective reader:

Foundation Trilogy (but not #4, or Asimov's other recent crud)
Neuromancer

Generally, I look for something that the reader will find accessible
yet "new" to them while being well written.  For a new/skeptical SF
reader, I think the accessibility is important.  I agree with the
tenor of your original posting.  STAR WARS may have brought a lot of
people into (junk) SF, but it's also kept a lot of people from
discovering the good stuff.

Cheers,
from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet
decvax!vortex!ism780!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
cca!ima!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 85 09:46:16 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

Jeff Thompson <X-MAN@SRI-NIC.ARPA> writes:
>My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a representative
>of all that is good in the field?  If not what would you suggest to
>your friends given the same opportunity?

Not having read Lord of Light (sorry!), I will instead present an
unabashed rave for a book that I would certainly suggest . . .

At the moment I would recommend John Crowley's "Engine Summer", my
(again, at the moment) favorite sf book.  As far as
micro-plot-synopsis: it takes place many centuries after the
(non-nuclear) general collapse of our civilization, and follows a
boy of a tribe that have an *exact* science of sociology, but no
other scientific knowlege, in his journeys in an attempt to become a
saint.

This book is suffused with a "sense of wonder" -- the
super-scientific devices of our near-future (and they are *original*
super-scientific devices) are seen as quite magical by the
characters in the story, and are presented through their eyes.
Crowley lets one see these as magical holy relics, while
simultaneously one realizes what they must 'really' be.

The sense of wonder is one of the best and most important features
of SF; it is certainly an essential feature of a "first" SF book.
"Engine Summer" would make a wonderful first book, and in fact I
strongly recommend it to anyone, no matter how SF-jaded they may be.
Then, when you've finished it, read his "Little, Big"...

                                        --Peter Alfke

PS: How else can you find out: Who are Dr. Boots' List? What is the
Filing System? Who are the Four Dead Men, and why aren't there five,
and are they the same Dead Men as the ones carved on a mountain?
What do the silver ball and glove do? . . .

------------------------------

Cc: X-MAN@sri-nic.ARPA
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 05 Sep 85 13:44:21 EDT (Thu)
From: Burgess Allison <allison@mitre.ARPA>

Particularly for would-be newcomers who are pre-disposed against
BEMs, Wierd Science, and stream-of-bizarre-consciousness writing
styles, I strongly suggest "The Stainless Steel Rat."

A good read, well-written, starts fast, has a plot, and doesn't
dwell on the bizarre or arcane.  Harry Harrison could have just as
easily written Slippery Jim into a completely different setting and
it still would have been a good book.  The SF setting enhances the
story, and sparks the reader's imagination to go beyond what's
written on the printed pages.

That's my vote for best-in-an-introductory-role.

Burgess Allison <allison@mitre>

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: BACK TO THE FUTURE questions
Date: 5 Sep 85 13:00:42 GMT

>From:  pegasus!naiman  (Ephrayim J. Naiman)

>1) Was Marty's brother at the end of the move John Mcenroe (sp?) ?
>   I didn't see his name in any of the credits but I could've sworn
>   it was him. If it was John was his brother also John at the
>   beginning of the movie ?

Marty's brother at any time in the movie was played by Marc McClure.
He should look familiar to you --- he played Jimmy Olsen in the
SUPERMAN (and SUPERGIRL) movies.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 12:32:43 edt
From: mike%bambi@mouton
Subject: "The Tripods"

I caught the first episode of "The Tripods" on PBS (Channel 13, NYC)
last night.  It's a half-hour series in ~25 parts based on John
Christopher's trilogy (THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, THE CITY OF GOLD AND
LEAD, THE POOL OF FIRE).  So far, it seems quite well done.

I have a soft spot in my heart for the trilogy, since it was some of
the first SF I read, and if it's showing in your area, you may want
to check it out, too.

        - Mike

------------------------------

Subject: lightsabres an "inferior" weapon?
Date: 04 Sep 85 22:07:04 PDT (Wed)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

How can the lightsabre be considered an inferior weapon to the
blaster?  It can cut just about anything that isn't well shielded
(in which case it plays old Harry with the shield itself) except for
another lightsabre, it can be used with surgical precision, and, in
the hands of trained Jedi, it will shield against all kinds of
attack.  Blasters, on the other hand, well get through lots of
things eventually, but require some persistence for tougher things
(like the doors in the imperial battle stations); as for their
surgical accuracy -- well, look at Han's "surgery" on the green
bounty hunter in the Mos Eisely cantina -- a little messy; and they
won't shield against anything, unless you are really good at
shooting your enemy's bolts out of the air as they're coming at you.
In fact, given the consensus we seem to have on the quality of
imperial armour, it seems lightsabres even do a better defensive job
than it.

No, I think the Jedi choose their favourite weapon properly, and not
just to impress with what they could do against superior odds.

 Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blasters)
Date: 4 Sep 85 15:20:35 GMT

>From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> I see no real reason, though, to assume that blasters are
> particularly modern; and I'm pretty certain that the use of
> lightsabres could never have been common, since using them
> effectively required training with the Force.  For the average
> fighter, the blaster has probably been the weapon of choice for
> quite a while.

I don't agree.  While a Jedi Knight can use a light saber much more
effectively than a ordinary person, that doesn't mean that a
ordinary soldier, with the proper training, couldn't make good use
of one.  In close combat, A light saber would be more useful than a
blaster.  I will admit that only a Jedi could deflect blaster shots,
like Luke did on Jabba the Hutt's barge, since that would seem to
require prescience.

On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons?  I
had assumed that they were energy weapons, but I noticed that when I
was watching 'The Empire Strikes Back' on tape a couple of nights
ago, that the results were more like a explosive projectile.  I also
noticed what seemed to be an ammo clip on one blaster.

Since, I don't recall ever seeing anyone reload a blaster, I would
have to postulate a very small projectile, like a small needle, so
that each blaster could fire a hundred rounds or more without
reloading.  It would also have an extremely high muzzle velocity,
since KE = 1/2MV**2.

Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with his
hand in TESB?  What kind of armor is he wearing?  Also notice that
it didn't stop a light saber!

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 85 11:30:47 PDT (Thursday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349)

Alastair Milne writes:
>I think the idea behind the armour is possibly more psychological
>than physical: confront the enemy with battalions of human
>(probably) killing machines, with a faintly insectlike appearance
>about the face...The Empire appears to enjoy this strategy of
>giving machines menacing, disturbing appearances which are of no
>real mechanical advantage to the machines themselves...Those
>cockpits looked as if they had great compound eyes on each side of
>them.

Remember - these are films we are dealing with!  You are right about
the "menacing, disturbing appearances" being used for psychological
reasons, but these were created by George Lucas for the benefit of
the audience, not by the Empire for the troopers' foes.  Storm
troopers probably fought insectoid creatures with compound eyes as
often as they fought mammalian sentients.  In fact, quite a few
troopers were probably insectoid themselves.

Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a
diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials and
Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy?  And
as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this?

-- Josh Susser

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 85 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #353
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 353

Today's Topics:

           Books - Lovecraft & Niven (2 msgs) & Schmitz &
                   Spinrad & Sucharitkul & Tremayne,
           Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission &
                   Contacting Authors & Storm Troopers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Sep 85 20:13:10-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Kadath

My copy of Lovecraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath is in a
book called

        At The Mountains of Madness, and other novels

published in London, by Victor Gollancz Ltd, 1966.  So it should be
available in England.

Robert Firth

PS: and no, it is not for sale!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 22:39:26 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Planetary maps on the Ringworld

>From: Tom Wadlow <taw@s1-c.arpa>
>Given that the Pak Protectors built the Ringworld, and that
>there are maps of Earth, Mars, Down, Kzin, etc. . .
>
>I recall . . . that one of the maps was listed as "Unknown".
>Perhaps that is the map of Pak.  I wonder what might be there.

If it were, it would not be identifiable.  Remember that when
Truesdale et al were deducing how the protector fleet they were
headed out to meet could have been built, they said that they would
induce large-scale vulcanism in the planet to bring new pockets of
metals to the surface?  Rearrangement on that scale would be
unlikely to leave recognizable geography.

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Racer X)
Subject: Re: Protectors and Known Space Novels
Date: 6 Sep 85 12:59:17 GMT

Seems to me this "Niven has painted himself into a corner" argument
is a crock, at least from Niven's point of view.  Why can't he write
a novel or some short stories occuring during, say, the first
Man/Kzin war?  What about some new Gil Hamilton stories?  I'm sure
these would be well received.

Certainly, he's probably constrained from furthering the history and
mythos of Known Space, but I hardly think this prevents him from
writing about it entirely.

I heard from a friend of a friend that talked to Niven at a
convention.  (Can YOU say "rumor"? I knew you could.)  He said the
reason he has collaborated so much in recent years is that he has
been/is in a "dry" period, ideawise.  However, this was before
"Integral Trees" which, if nothing else, had some interesting
ideas...
                        Scott J. Berry
                        ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: re: ""Research Alpha"" by Schmitz &
Date: 4 Sep 85 21:18:00 GMT

One of my great disapointments in life was that Schmitz never wrote
(or at least published) the sequel to "The Witches of Karres". He
spent the last chapter of the book version (which is longer than the
original version) setting up the sequel. He recruited the gang and
even set up some of the conflict. Then "". No sequel, and now he's
dead. It would be nice if somebody good would write the sequel in
Schmitz's style.  I hope it would come out better than some of the
"Lensman" stories written since Doc Smith died. (Although the story
"Moon Prospector" by William B. Ellern is first rate)

                        Chris "send me to the hub" Kostanick

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 85 12:37 EDT
From: Stephen Mahan <steve@ncsc>
Subject: Scientology and stories

     I'm not too familiar with scientology, but it bears a
suspicious resemblence to a cult featured in a Norman Spinrad book,
'The Mind Game'.  The novel concerns a hack sf author who finds
that a novel he has written is the basis for a cult.  He takes over
the cult, called Transformationalism, and builds it into a
multi-billion dollar empire.  There are obvious parallels between
this and Hubbard's activities.

     I recommend the novel highly.

                        steve

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Sucharitkul)
Date: 11 Sep 85 07:05:06 GMT

                     The Vampire--Jung and Old
       VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Somtow Sucharitkul)
                           Berkley, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     For years vampires have been drawn in the Freudian mode--as
symbols of repressed sexuality in a Victorian era and so on.
(Undoubtedly Freud would say that the vampire's fangs piercing the
woman's body are obviously representative of the penis.)  Now, it
seems, it has become time for the Jungians to have their shot at the
vampire legend, and S. P. Somtow (an admitted pseudonym for Somtow
Sucharitkul) has obliged with VAMPIRE JUNCTION.

     Since it is less widely known than Freudian psychology, Jungian
psychology should perhaps be briefly explained.  The four
identifiable aspects that appear in this novel are the ARCHETYPAL
UNCONSCIOUS, the ANIMUS/ANIMA dichotomy, the theory of
SYNCHRONICITY, and the goal of INDIVIDUATION.  The archetypal
unconscious forms half of a person's unconscious, the other half
being personal, i.e., composed of the person's individual
experiences.  The archetypal, or collective, unconsciousness seems
to be not unlike the concept of race memory.  Jung's theory of
animus/anima is another familiar idea--that of each individual
having both male and female aspects.  The theory of synchronicity
postulates the coincidence of seemingly unrelated events having
similar or identical meaning.  (The same idea shows up in some of
the strangest places--for example, the child-like character in REPO
MAN, who talks about how, after you've just been thinking of a plate
of shrimp, someone will say "plate" or "shrimp" or "plate of
shrimp."  But then, that's synchronicity for you.)  Finally,
individuation (according to Jung) is the process of uniting the
conscious and the unconscious within oneself and hence becoming
whole.  End of psychology digression.

     Somtow's vampire, Timmy Valentine, seeks out a therapist to
help him.  But he needs a Jungian therapist, because he is the
Jungian archetype, formed out of the collective unconsciousness of
the human beings who see him.  And they see him as they expect to
see him--some as a cat stalking down the street, some as a
flickering shadow, some as a rock star.  He finds Carla Rubens, who
tries to deal with the archetype turned flesh.  She, in turn, was
previously involved with Stephen Miles, an operatic conductor.
Miles, while at Cambridge, was drawn into a satanic group called
"The Gods of Chaos" (who knew of his pyromania and used that as a
hold on him).  During one of their ceremonies many years ago (in
which a woman was murdered) Miles caught a glimpse of Valentine.
Now the Gods of Chaos are re-uniting in Thailand to recover the two
halves of an idol that will give them enormous power.  It may
*sound* incredibly coincidental, but the word is *synchronistic*.

     Valentine, in his two-thousand-year existence (give or take a
century), has known many ages and many men.  The usual symbols that
the vampire fears no longer have any effect on him; with his age
comes the wisdom that they cannot harm him.  In most vampire
stories, the humans fighting the vampire must believe in the symbols
(especially the cross) to have them work; in this case, the vampire
must believe.  Valentine can walk about during the day, does not
fear crosses, is not repelled by garlic, etc.  But those that he
makes vampires still have these fears--they have not yet outgrown
them.

     While this book is written from a Jungian perspective, the
frequent references to dreams seems distinctly Freudian.  But these
are not what we think of as dreams, but rather expressions of the
collective unconscious.  Valentine's house, with its ever-changing
halls and rooms, is shaped by the union of its inhabitants
unconsciousnesses.  Whether you find the house, or Valentine, or the
novel, convincing depends in large part on whether you find Jungian
psychology convincing.

     And there is the real problem.  Somtow can handle the horror
scenes fairly well (though Junction, Idaho, reminds me a lot of
'Salem's Lot).  The premise of a vampire living through various
horrors of history is hardly new, but Somtow does manage to put some
twists on it that I hadn't seen before (and I tend to follow vampire
novels).  But the story of Valentine's two-millenia search for
individuation, and its culmination, fails to convince me even on the
level required for a vampire novel.  I mean, one is willing to
accept *some* mysticism, but it seems unlikely to me that even a
dedicated Jungian would accept this novel.  Though Somtow writes
with a certain flair, the inherent unfamiliarity of his concepts (at
least to most) will make this book very difficult to enjoy, which is
a pity.  I find the Jungian analysis of the vampire interesting, and
it gives a different interpretation than the usual Freudian one.
But the extent to which Somtow tries to put all of Jungian
psychology in this novel smothers the originality that it would
otherwise display.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: bridge2!bjl@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Peter Tremayne
Date: 3 Sep 85 19:25:17 GMT

Awhile back (and I still have the book) I read a book by Peter
Tremayne (a british publication) which was the first in a fantasy
trilogy, I have forgotten the name of the book, it is something
"Lan".  Has anyone else read it?  Or been able to locate the second
and third books?

shanti,
bobbie
(dewrl, sun) bridge2!bjl
Bridge Communications
1345 Shorebird Way
Mt. View, CA
(415) 969-4000 x267  to talk in person

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  5 Sep 85 21:53:06 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Matter Transmission
To: graffiti!peter@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

> From: graffiti!peter@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
>    ... What would this do to manufacturing processes?

  I imagine we would have the same sort of confusion and piracy that
now exists in the software field, where transmission and duplication
are already commonplace.
  In George Smith's _Venus Equilateral_ (1942) the main problem
caused by the invention of a matter transmitter and duplicator is
what to use for money.  The solution in the book was to invent a
material that could not be duplicated or transmitted.  I think a
more likely solution would be to go to a pure credit economy.  We
are fairly close to one already.
  Note that in a pure service economy, matter duplication does not
really change much!  If such a thing were invented today, it would
change civilization much less than if it were invented 40 years ago.
The main effects would be a rapid colonization of space and an end
to poverty.

>    ... Friends of the Earth or the Audubon Society (don't worry
>    about the whooping cranes, they're all on file).

  Not so far fetched.  A creature is completely specified by its
genetic code.  Several years ago I saw the complete genetic code for
some virus printed in a magazine.  As long as a copy of that
magazine exists, that virus will never really become extinct.
  I hope that as soon as someone completely analyzes the smallpox
virus (which now exists only in a few labs) that all smallpox
viruses will be destroyed.
  A person's genetic code would fit on one or two RA81 disks.  James
Hogan's idea (in _Voyage from Yesteryear_ (1982)) that unborn people
may travel to the stars in the form of data on a computer may be
workable.
  An equally fascinating idea is that it may be possible to recover
enough fragments of DNA from fossils to reconstruct extinct
creatures, such as dinosaurs (see _Re-entry_ by Paul Preuss (1981)).

>    Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could you ever
>    truly die?

  Sure.  If all the copies get wiped out.  Just as books, music, and
computer data can become irretrievably lost.  The more copies, and
in the more places, the better.  Keep one in another solar system
(it's called supernova insurance).
  And whatever else happens, if it is true that the universe will
ultimately contract to a single ultra-dense ultra-hot point, it
seems very unlikely that any information could survive, even if
there is an 'after'.  Other cosmologists believe that the universe
will continue to expand forever, and ultimately the total amount of
free energy available will drop too low for any kind of life.  This
may take as long as 10 to the 100th power years, which is an
incomprehensibly long time, at least for me.  (See _The Future of
the Universe_ in the March 1983 issue of Scientific American, and
_Star Maker_ by Olaf Stapledon (1937)).
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  6 Sep 1985 04:21:09-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: How to contact authors

> From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
> donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes:
>> Does anyone in netland know how to go about contacting her or the
>> author of one's choice?
>
> You can get whatever address is best used to write to an author by
> going to (or calling) your reference librarian.  There is a
> wonderful book which she will have...  which can give you what you
> need.  Sometimes it is just the agent's address, but often it is
> the author's real live home address.

Two reference books that I know of that contain such information
(and that most libraries are likely to have) are:

CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS, a series of volumes (100+ at the moment)
giving biographical and bibliographical information about many
authors living and dead. Many of the entries contain addresses for
either home, office, or agent. The one caveat to this is that any
given author entry isn't updated for a good long time, so the
information *may* be out of date.

WRITERS' DIRECTORY, gives similar information, though leans less
toward the bibliographical than CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS.

There is also a series of books published by St. Martin's Press
(reprinted from a British publisher) called the Twentieth Century
Authors Series, which should also contain the same information,
though is isn't as wide-ranging as CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS. Included in
this series are:
        TWENTIETH CENTURY SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS
            "        "    CRIME AND MYSTERY WRITERS
            "        "    CHILDREN'S WRITERS
            "        "    WESTERN WRITERS
            "        "    ROMANCE AND GOTHIC WRITERS

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 85 10:01:00 PDT
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Storm Tropper Armor ---

Someone suggested that the armor was not meant to be a defense from
weapons, then called attention to the fact that modern military
uniforms are more protection agains mosquitos and thorns than
anything else, because armor would be too bulky.

Point 1).  The troopers ALREADY HAVE bulky armor.  why not make
           effective agains blaster fire, along w/ the comm &
           life support unctions.

Point 2).  Modern military DOES have flak jackers, etc. to protect
           against weapons.  We did see a second (lighter) style of
           armor on the speeder bike scouts.  There MUST be a
           purpose to the heavier style!  Just as there are heavier
           uniforms that include flak protections, etc.

                -Richard Hartman
                max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 85 0908-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #354
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 354

Today's Topics:

               Books - Tolkien & Pilgrim's Progress &
                       The Golem in Literature,
               Miscellaneous - Choosing Books & Critics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Tolkien. . .
Date: 5 Sep 85 20:28:00 GMT

        At last year's WorldCon, I saw a first edition of The
Hobbit; asking price was at *least* $1,000.  It might have been
$5,000.  I walked away boggled.

from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  7 Sep 85 14:16:13 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: _Pilgrim's Progress_

  *I* liked it.  Perhaps this was because I was never required to
read it?
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: The Golem in Literature
Date: 11 Sep 85 06:39:02 GMT

                      THE GOLEM IN LITERATURE
                    An article by Mark R. Leeper
                          An Introduction

     Back when I was ten or eleven years old I used to get monster
movie bubble gum cards.  They usually had familiar stills from
monster movies.  One, however, puzzled me a bit.  It looked like a
human-shaped furnace with glowing eyes and a disproportionately big
fist.  It was labeled simply "The Golem."  There was no explanation
as to what the Golem was.  Since I usually recognized what was on
these cards, I filed in the back of my mind that there is something
called a "Golem" that I wanted to know more about.  It didn't occur
to me to look in a dictionary any more than it would to look up
"Godzilla."  Dictionaries never have the really interesting words!

     A month or so later my parents were going to a Yiddish play put
on at the Jewish Community Center.  It was called "The Golem," and
was written by H. Leivik.  Now I knew darn well that my mother did
not go to plays about monsters that looked like human-shaped
furnaces with glowing eyes and disproportionately big fists.  She
saw BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN when she was growing up and decided on the
spot that any story with a monster was stupid.  It had to be just a
coincidence of name, right?  Well, my parents came back from the
play and told me I would have liked the story..."it was weird."  It
was about a rabbi who made a man out of clay.  At this point I
realized that the bubble gum card and the play were somehow related,
and even more surprising, this monster was somehow a Jewish monster.

     I did some research into Golems and discovered that they are
indeed creatures of Jewish folklore that have been the subject of
monster movies.  (Incidentally, there turned out to be one other
traditional Jewish monster, a dybbuk.  It is a possessing spirit,
not too unlike the one in THE EXORCIST.)

     There are apparently several Golem stories in Jewish folklore,
but I have found nothing but fleeting references to any Golem legend
other than "The Golem of Prague."

     The story is set in Prague in the 16th Century.  The Jewish
community is threatened by blood-libels--claims that they were
murdering Christian children and using their blood to make matzoh.
(Actually, Jewish law strictly forbids the consumption of any blood
at all.)  A Christian who murdered a child and planted it in a Jew's
house could report the Jew.  The Jew would be executed and his
property would be split between the Christian who reported him and
the government.  Clearly the ghetto needed a very good watchman.

     Rabbi Judah Loew used information from the Kabalah--the central
book of Jewish mysticism--to learn the formula by which God first
made man out of clay, and with the help of two other pious men built
a man out of clay and brought him to life.  The final step of this
process was to place God's secret name on a parchment and place it
in the forehead of the Golem.

     Loew's Golem was between 7-1/2 and 9 feet tall and had
tremendous strength, but had a very placid and passive disposition
when not under orders to act otherwise.  He also lacked the one
faculty that only God can give, the power of speech.  Because this
giant was passive and mute, people in the ghetto assumed he was
half-witted and the word "golem" has also come to mean "idiot."

     One story about the early days of this Golem was probably
inspired by "The Sorcerer's Apprentice."  The Golem was told to
fetch water, but was not told how much.  The result was a minor
flood.  This tendency to do what he was told to do, not what he was
expected to do, has endeared the Golem story to computer people like
Norbert Wiener.  It may also be part of the basis of Asimov's robot
stories.

     At night the Golem guarded the ghetto, catching all would-be
libelists red-handed.  He single-handedly ended the possibility of
successfully blood-libeling the Jewish community.  Loew then got the
Emperor to end the practice of letting blood-libelers profit from
their actions.  When the Golem was no longer needed, Loew removed
the parchment, returning the Golem to being a statue, and the statue
was laid to rest in the attic of the synagogue.

     A popular variation on the story has the Golem rebel and become
an uncontrolled monster before being stopped and returned to clay.
It has been speculated that Mary Shelley patterned FRANKENSTEIN on
this story.

     The Golem has appeared several times on the screen, though only
once in an English-language film.  The first cinematic appearance
was in DER GOLEM (1914) with Paul Wegener in the title role.  The
story deals with the modern discovery and re-animation of the Golem.
This was apparently a lost film until it was found again in 1958.
It still is almost never seen.

     Wegener returned to the role in a second German film, also
called DER GOLEM (1920).  This film is loosely based on "The Golem
of Prague."  The Jews are portrayed as being weird magicians who
live in a strange expressionistic ghetto.  In fact, the early parts
of the film seems to presage the anti-Semitism that was soon to
engulf Germany.  The images of the Jewish community are not all that
different looking than those of propaganda films of the following
years.

     One of the most interesting touches of the film is the subplot
of Prince Florian.  The beautiful Prince Florian wants to save the
rabbi's daughter from the destruction that is to come to the Jews.
However, Florian is so unctuous and disgusting that when he is
killed by the Golem, the viewer is more relieved than shocked, and
perhaps that is just what was intended.  In any case, the Golem is
able to avert destruction of the Jewish community.  Then the Golem's
own love for the rabbi's daughter is denied and he becomes a
dangerous monster only to be destroyed by a child's hand.  The rabbi
then praises God for twice saving the Jews of the ghetto.

     Wegener may have also made a lesser known German film, THE
GOLEM AND THE DANCER, in 1917.  The actual existence of this film
has never been established.  A French-Czech film called THE GOLEM
was made in 1935.  Harry Baur starred in the story which was done
much in the style of a Universal horror film.  The story deals with
another tyrannical attempt to destroy Jews.  Through much of the
film, the rediscovered Golem remains chained in a tyrant's dungeon.
Just when things are at their blackest, the Golem comes to life and
destroys everything, once again saving the Jews.

     A number of Czech comedies have been about the Golem, including
THE GOLEM AND THE EMPEROR'S BAKER (1951).  In this, the Golem ends
up as an oven for the baker.

     The only English-language Golem film I know of is a British
cheapie called IT! (1967) with Roddy McDowell.  A psychotic museum
curator who lives with the corpse of his mother acquires the Golem
of Prague and uses it for his own purposes.  In the end, the Golem
survives a nuclear blast that kills his master and he quietly walks
into the sea.

[Moderator's Note: This article was too large to include in its
entirety.  The article will be continued in the next digest.]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 1985 at 1915-EDT
Subject: Separating wheat from chaff
From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA  (James B. Houser)

        Having been looking at AI type issues recently, I thought it
would be interesting to write down the rules by which the decision
is made whether to read a SF book or not. In other words, what is
the search strategy used on a visit to your local book emporium.
These rules immediately came to mind. (A given rule base would
actually have a basic and personnalized portion.) Any thoughts?

                Decision Rules for SF Books

Positive Indicators

1. If book is rewritten by an author you have previously liked.
     (This effect of this rule is a function of how recent the
     experience is. Sometime good authors peak and seriously decline
     ala MZB.)

2. If the cover information sounds good.

3. If you have the prerequisites for the book.
     (Fairly silly to buy book 42 of the Gorblatz trilogy if you
     haven't read at least one of the first 41.)

4. If the book is your Genre type.
     (I have observed that each person tended to read only certain
     genres of SF. These categories include; swords and sorcery,
     mechano-SF, psychic stuff, and so on.)

5. If the book is on your target list.
     (After all if 6 zillion people on SFL said a book is great you
     have to keep an eye out for it.)

Negative Indicators

1. If the cover refers to Lord of the Rings or Tolkien.
     (Books like Sword of Sha-na-na fall into this category If the
     cover says something to the effect that "this book makes LOTR
     look like dog manure" don't even THINK about buying it.)

3. If the book is heavily illustrated.
     (This often results from trying to pass a short story off as a
     novel. See large print rule.)

4. If the publisher used very large type and wide spacing.

5. If book is found in convenience type store next to romances.

6. If book involves intelligent sea mammals.
     (Especially dolphins!)

7. If book is a cleverly concealed re-issue.
     (Can be hard to detect.)

8. If book is written by an author that you have had previous bad
luck with.

9. If you have heard bad things about book from friends, net etc.
     (For example, Thomas Covenant the Unbelievable.)

10. If there is no cover blurb to speak of.

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Re: critics
Date: 3 Sep 85 12:57:57 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>It is my considered (and I do mean considered) opinion (and I do
>mean opinion) that to be great art a book must be, first of all, a
>good read.  If something is sufficiantly inaccessible that it
>cannot be read for fun, it fails as art because it will only speak
>to that small segment of the population that is already prepared to
>listen; its exploration of (if I may) the human condition is wasted
>on those who could otherwise get the most out of it....

Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it
can't be great art?  And if you have to work to understand it,
ditto?  You might argue (as many did when Joyce, Eliot, and Pound
first published) that it's perverse and snobbish to pour a great
talent into the production of work that's more or less opaque to the
average *contemporary* reader.  Such work may show a certain lack of
social or political concern on the part of the artist, but I don't
see why that makes it bad art.  Anyway, what about older books?

Most of the works of literature -- not all, but most -- from which
I've learned most about the human condition and so forth were books
I had to read quite a few times before I felt comfortable enough
with them that I could say I was having fun.  How much fun is Hamlet
the first time around?  And after you've gone through it many times,
and it's begun to occupy a special place in your thinking about the
world (if it does), is "fun" really the right word for what you
finally get out of it?  A great many books that have changed my way
of looking at things were lots of fun from the moment I picked them
up, but plenty of them repaid a bit of study.  Sometimes it was even
worth reading the works the author read in order to get a better
sense of his/her way of seeing things.

>One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how
>long is the author remembered?

By whom?  Homer's work is a hell of a lot of fun once you get into
it.  So are the Canterbury Tales; so's a lot of Shakespeare, for
that matter.  How much of this stuff would have survived at all if
it hadn't been preserved and taught in the schools?

>what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a hundred
>years failed to write stories or books that were fun to read?

All these people wrote works that were fun to read, but they didn't
STAY fun to read when their languages ceased to be current.  At this
point, if it's more than a hundred years old, either you do a little
studying or you miss a lot.  And the further back you go, the less
accessible the writing gets, until (as in the case of Shakespeare)
you're missing allusions to matters that were as common then as the
six o'clock news is now -- like the way cloth is woven, the way a
sailing ship works, who all the Greek gods were, and so on.  Or (as
in the case of Chaucer) all of the above, plus the fact that you're
virtually looking at a foreign language.  Or (as in the case of
Homer), the fact that you ARE looking at a foreign language.

>I have read ULYSSES.  It fails as great literature.  It speaks only
>to the inellectual elite.  This isn't bad; the intellectual elite
>could use some speaking to, but great literature must be inclusive,
>not exclusive.
>
>I wish I were good enough that I could have written ULYSSES.  But I
>say that the same way one says, "I wish I could afford an
>elephant."  I don't want the elephant, I just wish I could afford
>one.

Joyce trained to write ULYSSES by reading a lot of difficult books
and studying a few languages.  He moved to Europe from Ireland
chiefly because the culture he was born into was too provincial to
allow him access to the flow of invention and inspiration that was
sweeping the Continent at the time.  I mention this because many of
my favorite science fiction writers have studied relatively
inaccessible works (references to Joyce, to Pablo Neruda, to Jung,
to dozens of "mainstream" writers, abound in the work of Zelazny,
for instance) and the richness and depth of their style, and of
their ideas, seem to me to have benefited from the scope of their
investigations.

>But the point about critics is this: I believe that good writing
>must be accessable.  But "accessable" varies from person to person.

And varies over time.  What was inaccessible to me in sixth grade is
easy going now.  I once wanted to be able to write ULYSSES too, but
at this point -- as you suggested -- I just wish I had a fraction of
the capital with which Joyce bought his elephant.  I believe the way
to save that up is to read books by writers with interesting styles
and interesting ideas.  Some of them are hard going and others are
great fun, but that's no measure of what I get out of them in the
long run.

I suppose I'm saying that in order to have good writers, you have to
have good writers -- not hard writers or easy ones, just good ones.
I think if you insist that a work be easy reading and fun (RIGHT
AWAY!), you may not be giving it a chance.

One of the reasons I enjoy reading the newsgroups is that, just as
in more formal publications, people write well here.  I just can't
believe such good writing has developed without at least some study
of our language and literature.  I think I know what the work of
people who read only "fun stuff" looks like: as an editor, I'm often
called on to reorganize their writing for publication.  To my
knowledge [!!!] I've never seen clear, fluent, interesting writing
from someone whose first criterion for choosing a book was that it
be accessible.  If that's what I'm looking at now, well, it's never
too late to learn.

Judith Abrahms
{ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 85 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #355
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 355

Today's Topics:

            Books - First SF Book & The Golem (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Chris Lloyd

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 23:04:42 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: What should be your FIRST sf book ???

>From: Jeff Thompson <X-MAN@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
>One of my friends is generally derisive of sf. . . Recently,
>she agreed to read one sf novel of my choice.  I suggested
>"Lord of Light", which she is reading now.
>
>My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a
>representative of all that is good in the field?  If not what
>would you suggest to your friends given the same opportunity?

Fond as I am of Zelazny in general and that book in particular, I
don't feel that it is a good beginner's piece at all, unless the
person happens to know Hindu mythology without being sensitive to
what s/he might perceive as a parody.

My recommendation would depend a great deal on the individual, but I
would select one from the following, based on the kind of fiction
the person otherwise enjoyed.

  _The Mote in God's Eye_ by Niven and Pournelle
  _Up the Walls of the World_ by "Tiptree"
  _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ by Heinlein
  _The Left Hand of Darkness_ by LeGuin

Each of these is a superlative example of one of the genres of SF,
has a story line hascharacter development, has protagonists with
whom one can identify.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: The Golem in Literature
Date: 11 Sep 85 06:39:02 GMT

                      THE GOLEM IN LITERATURE
                    An article by Mark R. Leeper

[Moderator's Note:  This article is continued from the previous
digest.]

     This article will cover all those books about the Golem that I
wanted to read for years and never got around to.  This article was
a good excuse.  So here goes.

         THE GOLEM by Gustav Meyrink (Dover, 1976 (1928), $4.50*.)

     This is not actually a tale of the supernatural, in spite of
the title, though at time the strange things that happen border on
the supernatural and the events are all overshadowed by the legend
of the golem.

     Athanasius Pernath is a Christian living in the Jewish quarter
of Prague.  He is interested in the golem legends, particularly the
Golem of Prague, but as someone comments, everyone seems to be
talking about the golem.  Pernath's own personality seems to
parallel that of the golem--he seems to have little will of his own
other than that of altruism.  Much of the book is really just
observation of the inhabitants of the Ghetto until Pernath becomes
embroiled in a crime that another has committed.

     This is not light reading any more that Camus's THE STRANGER
is.  It has a plot but more important is the character's
introspection, the truths the character is learning about himself
and the characters around him.  Time and again Pernath returns to
the legend of the golem in his thoughts as his life patterns itself
after the golem's.  He is used by many of the characters, some
well-meaning but needing help, others selfish, and his wish to set
things right is his only reward.  In essence he is a human golem.

     Meyrink found writing the novel almost as bewildering as it is
for the reader to read it or the character to live it.  Somewhere
towards the middle (Bleiler says in the introduction to the Dover
edition), Meyrink lost track of the multiplicity of his characters
and needed a friend to graph them out geometrically on a chess board
before he could proceed.  The result is not one, but many stories
intertwined, which adds to the difficulty in reading the novel, but
also gives a number of views of the Jewish Ghetto in pre-
World-War-II Prague.  This is not an entertaining novel, but it is
worthwhile to read.  *The Dover edition also includes THE MAN WHO
WAS BORN AGAIN by Paul Busson.

                      THE GOLEM by H. Leivick

(in THE DYBBUK AND OTHER GREAT YIDDISH PLAYS, Bantam, 1966, $1.25.)

     This is one of the most famous plays of Yiddish theater.  H.
Leivick (actually Leivick Halper) re-tells once again the story of
the Golem of Prague, but in more obscure and symbolic terms.  To be
frank, the play probably requires a closer reading than I was
willing to give it (if not actually seeing a production).  It is a
long play, written in verse, that requires study and an investment
of time rather than the quick reading I gave it, so these comments
should be taken as first impressions.

     Certain concessions had to be made to dramatic style.  The
primary concession was that this Golem speaks.  A mute character in
a stage drama would be little more than a mime, and Leivick wanted
to get into the character of the man-made man.  That he certainly
does, more successfully than any other version of the story I know
of.  In spite of the Golem's stature, he is troubled and fearful.
In following the rabbi's orders, he is usually as fearful as any
normal human would be.  He is reluctant to go into dark caves at the
rabbi's bidding.  He is stigmatized and lonely.

     Much of what is happening in the play is going on on a symbolic
and metaphysical plane.  Dark figures, never explained, appear and
carry on abstract conversations.  I think that the style of the play
can be exemplified by stage directions like "the brightness of
invisibility begins to glow around him."  Even the stage directions
are obscure!  I will leave this play for others to interpret.

THE GOLEM OF PRAGUE by Gershon Winkler (Judaica Press, 1980, $9.95.)

     Winkler's book is in two parts: an introduction and the story
itself.  The story does not start until page 75, so the introduction
is a major part of the book and deserves separate comment.  Part of
the reason is not what the introduction says about Golems but
because of what it says about Winkler.

     In Winkler's description of his occupation, he says that he
"teach[es] Torah weekly on Long Island, primarily to young Jewish
adults with minimal Jewish knowledge and identity, and he has also
been helping young Jews return from 'Hebrew-Christian' and Far
Eastern movements."

     He begins his introduction with an attack on what he calls
"sciencism."  The latter is apparently a belief, fostered by
scientific reasoning, that leads one to be skeptical of the
existence of God and miracles.  As an example, he says, "For more
than fifty years, the museum's exhibition of a stooped, ape-like man
helped many people in our culture to overcome their guilt over the
rejection of G-d and the idea of Creation...  In 1958, the Congress
of Zoology in London declared that the 'Neanderthal Man' was really
nothing more than the remains of a modern-type man, affected by age
and arthritis...  Nevertheless, these scientific errors were never
expressed to the subsequent generations of school children.  Such a
public revelation would have been outright and left humanity with no
alternative explanation for the phenomenon of existence but G-d."

     Winkler has a section on "Making Golems" in his introduction.
He rambles for 16 pages on a few Golem legends and references to the
ineffable name of God.  On the actual subject of the section, he has
only the following helpful words to say: "It is not within the scope
of this overview to discuss the mystical mechanics of THE BOOK OF
FORMATION and how to use it to make Golems.  Readers are advised to
study day-to-day Judaism first, before investigating its profound
mystical dimensions.  After many years of having mastered the
down-to-earth aspects of the Torah, on both the practical and
intellectual level, one can then examine books like DERECH HASHEM...
which discusses the interactive relationships of the natural and
supernatural, and the role of the Divine Names."  If that was all he
had to say on the subject, it is not clear why he tried to tantalize
the reader by having an extensive section promising to tell more.

     The introduction also includes a picture labeled "Monument to
the Maharal's [Loew's] Golem standing at the entrance of the old
Jewish sector of Prague."  No further explanation is given.  This
would be an impressive sight if it were not obviously a picture of a
knight in Teutonic armor.  Anyone who recognizes German armor would
not be taken in by this fraud perpetrated by a man trying to
convince us of the superiority of his religious views.

     In short, I am less than impressed with the introduction.

     As Winkler gets into the main text of the story, he
editorializes less but there is still a strong undercurrent of
didactic lecturing in his writing.  The story of the Golem of Prague
is broken into short stories extolling the values of a good Jewish
education and traditional Jewish values.  The real common thread of
these stories is Rabbi Judah Loevy (a.k.a.  Loew).  In many of the
stories the Golem itself is the most minor of characters.  The
stories are really about the mystical wisdom and power of the rabbi.

     In these stories we see no end of evils caused by not giving a
Jew a proper Jewish education or by a young Jewish woman marrying a
Christian.  The vehemence with which the Christians want to convert
Jews verges on the incredible.  In one story, the Duke wants so much
to win one Jewish woman to Christianity that he is willing to marry
his only son to her.  The two do indeed fall into love, but the
bride-to-be decides she cannot betray her family.  Eventually the
two marry, but only after the Duke's son converts to Judaism.

     In this version of the story, the Golem is much less monstrous
and apparently indistinguishable from a flesh-and-blood human.  Yet
as the story requires, he seems to have strange magical powers.  In
one story he can see a soul hovering over a grave; in another he has
an amulet of invisibility.  The stories start to lose interest as
the Golem has too many powers, all bestowed on him by Rabbi Loevy.

     Oddly enough, the only character of real interest is the
arch-villain Father Thaddeus.  From "the green church," as it is
called, he hatches plot after plot against the Jews.  By turns he is
charming and then vicious and ruthless--whatever is called for in
his anti-Semitic plots.  The depth of his hatred is never fully
gauged by the reader until he cold-bloodedly murders a young
(Christian) child in order to frame the Jews for ritual murder.
After Thaddeus dies, the stories have a marked drop in quality.
Rabbi Loevy himself is the paragon of Jewish learning and knowledge.
In investigating crimes, his first question is always the one that
leads to the solution.  Paragons make very dull characters, and
since his thought processes are arrived at only through religious
knowledge far beyond that of the reader, he never becomes a
comprehensible character.

     Winkler clearly looses steam in his story-telling in the second
half of his tale, but the first half is worth reading far more than
the introduction or the second half.

 THE SWORD OF THE GOLEM by Abraham Rothberg (Bantam, 1970, $1.25.)

     Of the various re-tellings of the story of the Golem of Prague,
this is certainly the most readable and the most enjoyable, though
perhaps not the most faithful to its source material.

     The Golem in this version is, for the first time, a believable
three- dimensional character.  He doesn't just walk, he talks, he
feels, he loves, he hates, and if pushed far enough, he kills.
Instead of being broken into short stories of threats against
individuals in the Jewish community, this novel is one continual
threat and eventually a riot against the Jews.  The Golem in all
this is not a protective angel sent by Rabbi Low (the spelling in
this version) who is just an extension of the Rabbi.  The Golem
sympathizes with the Jewish community and considers himself to be
Jewish, but he has free will and his own reasons for doing what he
does.

     Another reason this is the most enjoyable version is that for
once even the anti-Jewish Christians are portrayed as more than just
thugs.  There is more than one debate between Rabbi Low and Brother
Thaddeus, the chief instigator of the anti-Semitism.  Of course, to
the reader it is clear that Thaddeus loses the debate, but his
reasons for what Thaddeus does come much clearer in any other
version.  One could almost stretch it to the point that Thaddeus is
a sympathetic character.  He at least believes that his hatred of
the Jews is well-founded in Catholic doctrine and his arguments for
anti-Semitism do come out of a twisted idealism, rather than just
selfishness as other versions of the story indicate.

     This 1970 novel is dedicated "most of all to the great Leivick,
who breathed new life into the Golem's clay."  But I feel I can
recommend the book more highly than the play.  In fact, this (which
was the last major Golem work I read) is the most satisfying and the
only one I recommend as a novel.

           THE TRIBE by Bari Wood (Signet, 1984, $2.95.)

     This was the first that I read of the works reviewed here.  It
gave me the idea for this article.  When I was growing up, I wanted
to write a horror novel about a golem.  I had a whole story plotted
out, but it was never written.  Now, unfortunately, Bari Wood has
beaten me to the punch with THE TRIBE.  Sadly, it turns out to be
more a murder story than the real pull-out-all-the-stops horror
story I had envisioned.

     The story starts with the mystery of why one barracks of Jews
at the Belzec concentration camp given very special treatment.  They
were not only left alive, but in addition, the SS gave them the best
food available.  They were eating canned sausage while the SS were
eating garbage.

     Flash forward to the present when five blacks who mug and
murder the son of one of the survivors of that barracks are
themselves brutally murdered.  The story then tells in boring detail
about the affair between the murdered Jew's widow and the black
police inspector who was a close friend of her husband's father.

     Any given paragraph by Wood is clearly written, but this story
seems to jump back and forth in time with disconcerting rapidity.
The legends that this story was built around have a much greater
potential than this story would indicate.  The whole story is
preparation for the final few pages, when the characters finally get
to confront the evil that until that point they had only heard about
second-hand.  Like too many contemporary horror novels, there is too
much writing without enough worthwhile story.  If you want to read a
novel about the Golem, this is not the one to start with.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: The Golem in Literature
Date: 6 Sep 85 12:30:20 GMT

Another book featuring a golem is a recent work, titled _The Red
Magician_.  Unfortunately, I have forgotten the author's name.  It's
a pleasant little book about how a jewish magician (using Kaballah,
of course) manages to save an eastern european town.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

Subject: Chris Lloyd
Date: 07 Sep 85 16:59:32 PDT (Sat)
From: Doug Krause <ops@uci-icsa>

Add one more.  Last night (more or less) I saw a made-for-tv movie
on cable.  It was called "Money On The Side".  It had Christopher
Lloyd as Det. Sgt. Stan Pone investigating a housewife prostitution
ring.

Doug Krause
dkrause@uci-icsb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 85 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #356
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 356

Today's Topics:

                  Books - First SF Book (2 msgs),
                  Television - Tripods,
                  Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: figmo@tymix.Tymnet (Lynn Gold)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 85 07:43:14 pdt
Subject: First SF book -- an "anti-suggestion"

Harrison's "The Stainless Steel Rat" is ok, but I would hesitate to
recommend it as a first book.  It had a well-thought-out storyline,
but some of the writing was atrocious from a grammatical standpoint.
I ESPECIALLY would not recommend it to a woman as first-time
reading.  There were too many aspects of the book which came off as
an adolescent male's sexual fantasies; I'd come to these passages
where I'd think, "How much longer is this going to go on for before
we get back to the action?" when Slippery Jim was fantasizing about
Angelina.

--Lynn
UUCP: ...tymix!figmo
ARPA: FIGMO@MIT-MC.ARPA

------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 5 Sep 85 17:46:31 GMT

In the subgenre of HARD SF, I'd recommend that the first book to
give to a non-SF reader is "The Mote in God's Eye."  It was
specifically written by Niven and Pournelle to be understandable
without an SF background, to increase its public acceptance, and I
believe it was one of the first SF books to make the New York Times'
best-seller list.  I think it also won several SF awards (sorry, I
don't have my reference works handy).  "Mote" has some of the most
well-developed and believable aliens I know of, examines the impact
of technolgy on societies, delves into the "joy of discovery" that
is a major theme of hard SF, and is considered by many to be a
classic of the field.

It also has the advantage of not being part of a trilogy.

David D. Levine  (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl)          [UUCP]
                 (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet)  [ARPA]

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE TRIPODS (based on John Christopher)
Date: 6 Sep 85 17:13:59 GMT

                            THE TRIPODS
               A television review by Mark R. Leeper

     It is England some 100 years in the future, but it might be 100
years in the past for the level of technology.  Things seem frozen
in time and the only thing around that seems beyond the 19th Century
are the alien tripods, maybe forty or fifty feet high, towering over
the landscape.  As each person in the village becomes an adult, a
strange metallic framework is embedded into the top of his or her
head that makes him or her a happy and docile worker.

     Nothing really original here.  The series is based on the books
THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, THE CITY OF GOLD AND LEAD, and THE POOL OF FIRE
by John Christopher.  The trilogy will be told in 25 half-hour
episodes.  Based on an insufficient sample, I would say the acting
is good and the special effects adequate.  I have a used copy of THE
WHITE MOUNTAINS and the previous owner pencilled in "Boy Scout
stuff" on the first page.  He was probably right, but the same could
be said of the STAR WARS novel.  That was not too bad as a film.  The
series seems worth watching.  Watch for it on PBS stations.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: anti-Art Snobbery
Date: 4 Sep 85 16:53:48 GMT

Note: >   Jerry's response back to me
      >>  my response
      >>> Jerry's original posting

boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>       The point I read in the article to which I responded was
>that because DHALGREN [supposedly] won a Nebula, it must be a
>terrific work of art. I merely wished to refute that. He also
>implied that because the Nebulas were chosen by writers rather than
>fans, the winners of such are a more estimable lot. I wished to
>refute that also.

I'm afraid I didn't get that from your posting. Since I don't have
the full text of the original article, I can't really do anything
but take your word for it and assume I misread you for some reason.
If this was what you said, I agree with you on both points.

>> If feeling like a persecuted 'anti-Art snob' is enjoyable, be our
>> guest. But don't you think this is just a little bit paranoid,
>> Jerry?
>
>No, I don't. And I never said whether I enjoyed being a persecuted
>anti-Art snob or even if I *considered* myself such. The original
>poster seemed to feel there is an anti-Art snob conspiracy
>abounding.  Isn't *that* just a little bit paranoid? *I* didn't
>bring up the concept of the anti-Art snob. Turnabout is fair play.

I don't recall the 'conspiracy' attitude in the original posting you
refer to. Perhaps you can post a sample illustrating this. I was
reacting to the following statement in which you seemed to think
that you were being labelled unfairly by the original poster:

>>>...  So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact
>>>that I liked ... [list of Delany's other works]

I'm afraid I don't understand who's branding you an 'anti-Art' snob,
or why the original posting rated this kind of reaction. But perhaps
I didn't read the posting you were reacting to closely enough, and
if this is the case I apologize for misjudging your reaction.

>No, no one has called anyone an "anti-intellectual fool" in so many
>words, but hasn't that been the tone of Tucker's ravings, at least?
>Hasn't he gone on at length about how sf fans and readers are
>content to read [note: I don't have the previous SFL's to quote
>from verbatim] soporific fiction of the likes of Asimov, Heinlein,
>et alia, rather than the enlightening works of Literary Craftsmen?
>Hasn't he, *in essence* called those who prefer to read Piers
>Anthony rather than Jorge Luis Borges anti-intellectual fools?

Since I stopped reading Mr. Tucker's posting halfway through the
third when he started getting repetitious and more than a little
silly, I really can't say. But the Devil's Advocate performs a
useful function, I think; there's something to be said for
challenging people to defend their passion for something and THINK
about why they like or dislike something. The sheer volume and
passion of the postings on this topic over the last few months
testify to Mr. Tucker's success, I think.

Some people like to argue and wave their arms around; others feel
personally threatened by such argument. A lot of the perceived
hostility in this newsgroup may be due to people misreading each
others' intentions. My own interpretation of Mr. Tucker's postings
is that he has made some valid points and also beat a few dead
horses into the ground. So what? I think the same can be said about
both sides in this argument.

For example: haven't some of the Down With The Intellectuals posters
*in essence* called those of us who prefer to read Jorge Luis Borges
rather than Piers Anthony pretentious _ssholes? At least it's
possible to read some of their comments as personal attacks if one's
gonads are tied up in one's preference in reading material:

    "...art is boooring..." [read: you guys who prefer art to
                             a quick read are boring and pretentious]

See how you can get your dander up if you read personal attacks into
everything? Turnabout is indeed fair play.

>Where did I say that because I think DHALGREN is twaddle that there
>isn't anything there?

My dictionary defines 'twaddle' as follows: "...foolish, empty talk
or writing; nonsense." To me, this implies there isn't anything
there.  I'm not a mind reader. If you were using a personal and
idiosyncratic definition of 'twaddle' you should have warned me.

>Where did I say that anyone who finds DHALGREN a challenging and
>rewarding work is, *de facto*, an Art Snob. For that matter, where
>do I rant and rave against Art at all?

I didn't say this. Here's what you said:

>>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply
>>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing
>>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see
>>>why it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs
>>>that someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid
>>>reasons*.

And here was my response and my reasons for making it:

>> Pure pony diarrhea. You want us to say maybe, "OK, Jerry, you say
>> Dhalgren is twaddle, so it must be twaddle; after all, you're NOT
>> a critic?"

I didn't see anywhere where you were saying Dhalgren is twaddle for
reasons A., B., and C., so your claim of 'valid reasons' seemed
unsupported to me. The 'Defenders of Art' and 'Art snobs' at least
offer reasons WHY they think Dhalgren is worth reading. Please note
that this sentence doesn't accuse you of labelling anyone who finds
Dhalgren challenging/rewarding an Art Snob, or of ranting and raving
against Art. Next two sentences:

>> Saying you don't like it/couldn't get into it so there mustn't be
>> anything there is hardly valid criticism. Fact is, a lot of
>> people LIKE Dhalgren and find it a challenging and rewarding
>> work.

Again, what you seemed to be saying was precisely this: your valid
reason for saying Dhalgren is 'twaddle' (note, people, the
definition of 'twaddle': foolish empty talk or writing; nonsense) is
that you don't like it for your own valid reasons. Again, please
note that these sentences don't accuse you of labelling anyone who
finds Dhalgren challenging/rewarding an Art Snob, or of ranting and
raving against Art. And finally:

>> If you have valid reasons for thinking that these people are
>> all Art Snobs who like Dhalgren only because some mysterious
>> conspiracy of Critics told them they should, please let us know
>> about it ...

This may in fact be what you're objecting to. Let's examine again
the following sentence from your posting:

>>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply
>>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing
>>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see
>>>why it's an exemplary work." ...

Now in my book that says to me that the people you call 'Defenders
of Art' like Dhalgren but are either unwilling or unable to
articulate their reasons for liking Dhalgren ('you OBVIOUSLY were
missing something'). The implication seems to be that there is an
academic consensus (i.e., 'conspiracy of Critics') about the value
of certain works, and that the 'Defenders of Art' somehow brainwash
themselves into liking certain works because it's the 'trendy' thing
to do and the Critics tell them these works are worth reading ('If
you set your mind to working'). Please note that these sentences
don't accuse you of labelling anyone who finds Dhalgren
challenging/rewarding an Art Snob; they do, however, accuse you of
unfairly questioning certain persons'

>... I don't consider myself either an Art Snob or an Anti-Art Snob.
>And I'm willing to recognize that someone can see something in a
>work of fiction that I can't.  People see can all sorts of things
>in anything.

And if I'd seen statements like this in your posting I quite likely
would not have posted my response.

>The poster to whom I was responding, however, implied that by not
>liking DHALGREN, I was obviously not trying hard enough to see its
>virtues. Maybe I wasn't, but *maybe I was*. He shouldn't just
>*assume* the former.

I seem to recall the poster's comment as being more in the nature of
a mild suggestion that you maybe shouldn't be so quick to dismiss
what might be a piece of great writing, but it's been too long. And
I failed to see from your postings what your reasons were for not
liking it.  Perhaps you can show us the hostility in the original
poster's comment that aroused your wrath.

>> ... Who's calling who a fool, Jerry?
>I give up. Who?

From your posting:

>>>There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought
>>>up yet.  The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can
>>>dislike a Work of Art without being branded as an
>>>anti-intellectual fool.

You're accusing people of branding you a fool. Then you turn around
and seem to be accusing Delany of being a fool for writing Dhalgren
(read my comment above in the original context, Jerry). That's what
my question meant.

>       But this brings up the point of whether anyone has the
>"right" to call *anything* a piece of hack work. Can you truly say
>that Piers Anthony puts less love and effort into writing any of
>his books than Delany does into his? If so, why? Because he
>publishes six times as many books per year?

I'm not familiar with Piers Anthony's books except through reviews,
so I can't say. First of all, let's make sure we agree on a
definition of 'hack writer:' my dictionary defines a 'hack' as a
person hired to do dull and routine writing. I think the sense it
usually has in the SF community is a writer who grinds out novels
more for the few hundred bucks they bring him/her than for a love of
the craft or for the sake of the entertainment they bring to their
readers. Agreed? As you may know, you can write to certain
publishers who specialize in the romance genre and receive detailed
cookbooks for their romance novels.  When I was an undergraduate I
knew of several grad students in the English department at the
University of Iowa who supplemented their incomes by 'hacking'
romance novels, westerns, crime novels, and (yes) SF under various
pseudonyms. They did so for purely financial reasons and for the
amusement it afforded them. I believe these people were probably
'hack writers' and that what they produced was indeed 'hack work.'
So to answer your question, yes, one does have the "right" to call
certain productions 'hack work.'

As to the SF genre, go down to your local paperback bookstore and
check out the SF section (B. Dalton or Waldenbooks are ideal for
this). You'll notice a wide shelf with 'Star Trek,' 'V,' 'Star
Wars,' 'Gor,' and 'Conan' clones. Do you really believe NONE of
these clones were written purely for financial motives?

                        -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Fri 6 Sep 85 12:38:28-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #350

> Those of you with long memories will recall that my first posting
> on quality and fiction predated the whole Davis Tucker series that
> seems to have upset so many people in this group, and was a
> reaction to Steve Brust's claim that most good writing today is
> issuing from the pens (word processors?) of SF writers. Since
> then, I've seen great hostility on both sides of the fence. So
> please don't mislead newcomers to this controversy by claiming
> that the initial extremity was perpetrated by an "Art Snob." My
> OWN first impressions were that the "Good-Read Snobs" started it;
> c'mon, fight like a mensch. :-)

That did seem to be the start of the 1985 season on this network.
It didn't seem too offensive to me; it wasn't like the antipersonal
and antigroup attacks that followed it.  I don't know who started
flaming offensively first; but I imagine that the person who did
didn't think she or he was flaming offensively.  For you, it may
have been Steve Brust.

And I'm trying to fight like a penguin.

  Bard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 85 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #357
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Sep 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 357

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Delany & First SF Book,
                  Miscellaneous - Star Wars (3 msgs) &
                          Critics & Contacting Authors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Ellison on Dhalgren
Date: 6 Sep 85 16:53:40 GMT

Hoffman.ES@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>   For "Dhalgren" is a tragic failure.  An unrelenting bore of a
>literary exercise afflicted with elephantiasis, anemia of ideas and
>malnutrition of plot and character development.  It is a master
>talent run amuck, suiciding endlessly for chapter after chapter of
>turgid, impenetrable prose.

I find it amusing that Harlan Ellison, the master of the bloated
essay, is here accusing someone else of turgidity. Ah, well, perhaps
it's a form of projection... ;-)

>   I must be honest: I gave up after 361 pages.  I could not permit
>myself to be gulled or bored any further.

Well, I still have "Dhalgren" by my bed and still intend to finish
it one of these days. I certainly hope I don't feel after 800+ pages
that I've been "gulled" and "bored," but after all the nasty things
I've been reading about this novel in this group lately I suppose I
should prepare myself for the worst.

>Realizing from the git-go that the opening lines of the novel would
>tie into the closing lines, forming one of Laocoonian Moebius
>gimmicks considered too hoary for use 30 years ago, the travels of
>the nameless hero with one sandal did not seem sufficiently
>enriching to permit my engaging in the reading of the book as a
>career.

Unfortunately, Mr. Ellison is right about this particular plot
device.  When I became suspicious about the fragmentary sentence
that opens "Dhalgren" I snuck a peek at the end. Sure enough, it
wraps around shamelessly. How embarrassing. Judging from other
reviews I've read that were authored by Big Harlan, however, I think
he has a tendency to overstate his case. Consider his review in the
Magazine of F & SF of the repulsive little film "Gremlins" which he
seems to see as one of the most totally evil things ever put on
celluloid. Come on, Harlan.

>Others who leaped on the first available copies of the novel, as I
>did, who began reading it avidly, as I did, who began breathing
>raggedly and faltered in the sprint, as I did, have assured me the
>book goes nowhere, does nothing, says nothing, and is sunk to its
>binding in mythological symbolism that is both flagrant and
>embarrassing.  Three hundred and sixty-one pages had delivered me
>of the same conclusions.

I find it hard to respect the opinions of a reviewer who can't force
himself to stick through a bad movie, bad book or whatever and
insists on telling me that even though he quit the task in disgust
he found a few suckers who were willing to reassure him that his
half-formed opinions are correct. And he won't even tell us who
these "others" are. In fact, I find it hard to believe that someone
would PAY him for half a review (but maybe he only got half a
paycheck :-).

And in reading this review I can't see where Mr. Ellison really says
anything concrete about what's wrong with Dhalgren. As usual, he
seems to be saying a lot because he uses a LOT of big words. But
look closely: what exactly has he said about Dhalgren's failure
other than that it IS a failure in his opinion?

>I continue to be a strong fan of Delany's writing, both fiction and
>criticism.  I still "leap on the first available copy" of his every
>new work and I've enjoyed much of it.  And, yes, I still await the
>"breakthrough novel" I think he can produce.

I agree. My favorite Delany novel is still "Nova," which I intend
rereading after I finish "Dhalgren." "Stars In My Pocket etc." was
also a hell of a good read for me, and I'm looking forward to other
half of the diptych (or is it dilogy?)

                         -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 7 Sep 85 03:45:05 GMT

The big problem I have with this discussion is that it is impossible
to give ONE book that can even start to come close to defining SF.
By trying to, you end up showing only a small and biased subset of
the genre, and there is no guarantee at all that the person will
like that part of the genre. If that happens, you turn them off to
all the other works that they might otherwise have enjoyed because
SF 'isn't for them'. I prefer to hand out a group of books, ask them
to try them all and stop those that don't interest them. Once you
get an idea what they like, it becomes much easier to turn them on
to other similar books and slowly expand their horizons later...

I agree that "Flowers for Algernon" ought to be on that list, I
quibble with "Mote in God's Eye" (I prefer "Dragon's Egg" and
"Ringworld" for hard but accessible SF), but those two books don't
even start to show the possibilities of the genre. What about
"Martian Chronicles"? What about "Tea with the Black Dragon"? The
"Once and Future King"? You can't go wrong tossing a copy of
"Adventures in Time and Space" at them, or "Shadow of the Torturer",
or "Canticle for Liebowitz", or "Something Wicked This Way Comes",
or "Time Enough for Love", or "Persistence of Vision", or
"Footfall", or "The Time Machine", or "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon",
or "The Deathbird Stories" or "Myth Adventures" for that matter.
Every one of those really defines a different feel and flavor within
the genre, and you can hate a good subset of that list and love the
other subset just as strongly (I happen to love all of them, which
is why they popped in off the top of my head. I could double the
list with a little research). The point is, if you choose any one of
those books as the introduction to SF and they hate it, they lose
out on a wide variety of stuff they may well have liked. Give them a
bunch of books and help them find the parts of this thing we call SF
(and I am including fantasy in here at the moment, just because I
feel like it) and avoid the parts they don't like.

Hmm... maybe its time for another 'what are your favorite books'
survey, or better yet, 'what are your favorite books in each
subgenre' survey...

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ephrayim J. Naiman)
Subject: Re: lightsabres an "inferior" weapon?
Date: 6 Sep 85 19:30:51 GMT

>How can the lightsabre be considered an inferior weapon to the
>blaster?  It can cut just about anything that isn't well shielded
>(in which case it plays old Harry with the shield itself) except
>for another lightsabre, it can be used with surgical precision,
>and, in the hands of trained Jedi, it will shield against all kinds
>of attack.  Blasters, on the other hand, well get through lots of
>things eventually, but require some persistance for tougher things
>(like the doors in the imperial battle stations); as for their
>surgical accuracy -- well, look at Han's "surgery" on the green
>bounty hunter in the Mos Eisely cantina -- a little messy; and they
>won't shield against anything, unless you are really good at
>shooting your enemy's bolts out of the air as they're coming at
>you.  In fact, given the consensus we seem to have on the quality
>of imperial armour, it seems lightsabres even do a better defensive
>job than it.
>
>No, I think the Jedi choose their favourite weapon properly, and
>not just to impress with what they could do against superior odds.
>Alastair Milne

I also feel that the Jedi chose their weapon properly.  To further
support the above mentioned theories, I thought of another one.
Blasters work for long range with the saber only able to defend
against it.  This also leads to the saber being used more for
defensive purposes rather than offensive.

Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories
(201) 576-6259
Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, mtuxo, maxvax, cbosgd, lzmi]!pegasus!naiman

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blasters)
Date: 08 Sep 85 00:47:44 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons?  .
> . .  were more like a explosive projectile.  I also noticed what
> seemed to be an ammo clip on one blaster.

Personally, I think energy weapons; or at most, a combination.  The
energy probably induced the explosion in the target material.  And
what looked like an ammo clip could be a charge pack.  But I really
don't have anything to base this on: it's just my impression.

> Since, I don't recall ever seeing anyone reload a blaster, . ..

Don't forget, no single blaster user is followed consistently enough
to let us see such details.  Could you assume from never seeing a
soldier reload in a WWII film, that their weapons didn't use
projectiles.  Usually, we are simply spared such minutiae unless it
has an impact.  (I am not actually changing my belief, but I thought
this point could use answering).


> Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with
> his hand in TESB?  What kind of armor is he wearing?  Also notice
> that it didn't stop a light saber!

Vader was wearing what he always wears: that black uniform from
crown to toe, which contains his life support, possibly
communications, and who knows what else.  The shots that Han fired
at him he intercepted either with his glove, or using the Force just
slightly in front of the glove (I defy anybody to distinguish by
looking at the scene).  It would indeed be very interesting to know
more about the properties of Vader's uniform.  It may well be a type
of armour in itself.

Why do you say it didn't stop a lightsabre?  It certainly seemed to
to me.  I grant that Vader got a lovely jolt out of it, but my
impression from the sparking when the sabre made contact was of a
force field "shorting" (or whatever the equivalent in a force field
is).  Had the sabre not been stopped, Vader's head and shoulders
would have parted company from the rest of him.  And I don't think
we need imagine that it was Luke who stopped it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349)
Date: 08 Sep 85 01:12:53 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> Remember - these are films we are dealing with!  You are right
> about the "menacing, disturbing appearances" being used for
> psychological reasons, but these were created by George Lucas for
> the benefit of the audience, not by the Empire for the troopers'
> foes.  Storm troopers probably fought insectoid creatures with
> compound eyes as often as they fought mammalian sentients.  In
> fact, quite a few troopers were probably insectoid themselves.

I agree with you about Lucas, but I don't think that excludes the
Empire (Lucas' creation) from the same kind of thinking.  Obviously,
until and unless Lucas confirms or denies it, this is simply
speculation with which I'm filling in the story; but it hangs
together logically, and I don't see any reason within the story to
reject it out of hand.  About the species of the troopers: say
rather that "there were possibly troopers who were themselves
insectoid", and I will agree, though I confess it hadn't occurred to
me before.  Perhaps because, unlike the rebel personnel, all
imperials whose forms were visible were human.  I am, of course, not
counting TESB's bounty hunters as imperials.  Maybe high-level
prejudice at work as hard as ever.  For this reason, the word
"probably" seems to me a bit too optimistic.  Besides, I don't think
any such consideration would keep the Empire from using a tactic
that might help against enemy populations.

> Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a
> diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials
> and Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy?
> And as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this?

I'm not really sure how true this is.  There is at least two major,
heroic non-humans: Chewie and Yoda.  And the Rebel fleet personnel,
particularly in Return/Jedi, is of many different species.  Nor is
there a lack of humans among the scum.

I suspect any apparent preponderance is because of the number of
settings on Tattoine, essentially a planetwide dive, and home to a
wide variety of sentients.

You may indeed have a point, but without a rather careful count of
humans and non-humans, and their positions, it's hard to know.

However, if you are looking for equity, justice, and dedication to
the proposition that all intelligent species are created equal, look
elsewhere than the Empire, that well known bastion of liberty and
justice.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns)
Subject: re: anti-Art Snobbery
Date: 6 Sep 85 16:22:14 GMT

> I mentioned that the authors who've won the most combined Hugo and
> Nebula awards were Harlan Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Poul Anderson,
> and Fritz Lieber. Now, without having exact numbers at my
> fingertips, I'd guess that the division between Hugos and Nebulas
> was about even.  that means that the writers choosing for "best
> literature" and the fans choosing for "favorite" tend to have
> fairly similar tastes.
>       It might also be said to point out that fans can choose
> the more literary authors (Ellison, LeGuin) just as easily as the
> writers can and that the writers can choose the less literary
> authors (Lieber, Anderson) just as easily as the fans.

Ahem, er, well, not to really disagree with you, Jerry, but I
actually find Lieber to be enjoyable on many depths, and since I got
older and more sophisticated than I used to be (maybe)(well, it
*was* an improvement for *me* :0) ), I began to enjoy more Lieber
stories because of his literary qualities.  But this is _just_ my
humble opinion, and frankly, I can't come up with which Lieber book
won both the Hugo and the Nebula, and it might well have been one
with not much literary depth.  I'm not flaming.


>       But this brings up the point of whether anyone has the
> "right" to call *anything* a piece of hack work. Can you truly say
> that Piers Anthony puts less love and effort into writing any of
> his books than Delany does into his? If so, why? Because he
> publishes six times as many books per year?

Which reminds me of some recent discussions in net.startrek about
whether anybody who abases themself enough to write a startrek novel
could really have any talent.  Lots of flaming, talent-assassination
of Vonda McIntyre, pooh-poohing of Clarion, lists of talented and
publishing authors.  I bring it up because "hack" got bandied about
in that discussion also.

On a lighter side about "hack", from "TURBOTOME" by Polly Frost in a
recent _New_Yorker_ (used without permission):

   " Congratulations on purchasing TURBOTOME--a software program
   designed especially for the Professional Writer (YOU)!  TURBOTOME
   enables to bypass the rough draft, the first and second drafts,
   the galleys--even the test of time!--and lets you get on with the
   business of writing."

L S Chabot   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Contacting writers
Date: 3 Sep 85 13:53:43 GMT

> From: Ron Cain <CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA>
>       I believe the preferred method of contacting a writer is
> through the publisher.  Address the letter to the publisher and
> request that it be forwarded to the author.  Publishers seem to be
> pretty reliable about getting the things through to the writer in
> a short time.

Indeed?  I am just now (late August/early Septemeber) getting
letters sent to Berkely and postmarked May.  I'm told that most
Publishers are worse.  It may be that writing to the editor and
explaining why the enclosed envelope should be forwarded quickly
will help.  It may not.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 85 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #358
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Sep 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 358

Today's Topics:

               Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Gilliland &
                       A Personal Demon & First SF (3 msgs) &
                       1985 Hugo Award Winners,
               Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission &
                       Critics & Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: SF-LOVERS digest entry
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1985 10:38 EDT

While recommending some books for a neophyte SFLOVER to read , Jim
Brunet wrote ;

> Foundation Trilogy (but not #4, or Asimov's other recent crud)

While I don't quibble with his recommendation to read the Foundation
Trilogy.  I am struck by the statement, 'Asimov's other recent
crud'. If by other recent crud he means the Foundations Edge and the
Robots of Dawn then I believe him to be off the mark.

I thought the Robots of Dawn was a fitting sequel to the other Robot
Novels and I look forward to the new one, which I've ordered.

Concerning the Foundations Edge, I WAS a little upset with the loose
ends at the end, ( can you say "Foundation 4"?), but believed to be
many orders of magnitude better than the typical 'crud'.

Why 'crud'?

------------------------------

Date: Sunday,  8 Sep 1985 22:57:27-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: The Black Widowers

> From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt)
> I thought bibliography was your business. You flubbed up. At least
> three of the 36 Black Widowers stories are sf in nature or topic
> ("The Backward Look" comes to mind).  In fact, a goodly percentage
> of the BW stories were bought by IASFM and F&SF -- I'm almost
> certain (I don't have the books handy) that F&SF + IASFM have
> bought more BW stories than EQ or any other mystery magazine!

(1) Actually, there are 52 stories in the series. Four book
collections of 12 each (TALES OF THE BLACK WIDOWERS, MORE TALES...,
CASEBOOK..., and BANQUETS...) plus four others. The most recent
story, "Triple Devil", in the August 1985 ELLERY QUEEN'S MYSTERY
MAGAZINE lists itself as #52.

(2) Out of those 52, only five have appeared in the science fiction
magazines --- three in F&SF, two in IASFM. Twelve appeared as
original stories in the collections, and 33 appeared first in EQMM.
The other two I haven't tracked down yet, but I know *for sure* that
they haven't appeared in the sf magazines. If you consider 10% to be
a "goodly" percentage, I won't argue, but the number of BW stories
in EQMM outweighes by *far* the number in the sf magazines.

(3) Of the five stories that appeared in the sf magazines, NOT A
SINGLE ONE is science fiction. I don't care where they appeared ---
they are not sf. The first, "Nothing Like Murder" (F&SF, 10/74) is
nothing more than a tribute to J.R.R. Tolkien.  Another one, "Friday
the Thirteenth" (F&SF, 1/76), is a simple mathematical puzzle
involving the superstition of Friday the 13th. The other three,
"Earthset and Evening Star" (F&SF, 8/75), "The Missing Item" (IASFM,
Win/77), and "The Backward Look" (IASFM, 9/79) are simple
astronomical puzzles. In the first of the latter, the Widowers solve
a crime involving someone who designed a lunar base set for an sf
movie. In the second, they figure out a way to disprove the claim of
a religious cult leader that he's traveled to Mars via astral
projection.  In the third, they help a writer come up with a motive
for an sf/mystery story he wants to write, the problem at hand
involving celestial mechanics.
        But in none of the stories appear any sf elements except as
hypothetical scenarios for the puzzles the Widowers try to solve.
None of the stories are set in a future time, or an alternate
timeline, or space, nor do they involve technology not available to
us at this time, nor do they contain any other elements that might
be considered science fictional. They are nothing more than simple
armchair detective stories. They are meta-sf at best; no more sf
than Anthony Boucher's ROCKET TO THE MORGUE is, just because the
characters in it are sf authors. If you can present a good argument
for why they should be considered sf, I'll listen, but it'll have to
be a *real* good one.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"I did not flub"> and <"Bibliography *is* my business">

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Deus ex machina
Date: 4 Sep 85 16:07:11 GMT

A relevant (and amusing) variation in this can be found in a series
of books by Gilliland (the titles all have Rosinante in them).  A
computer named Skakash (spelling?) invents a religion.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

From: ptsfb!djl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe)
Subject: A Personal Demon
Date: 8 Sep 85 19:23:09 GMT

                   _A__P_e_r_s_o_n_a_l__D_e_m_o_n
                                 by
                   _D_a_v_i_d__B_i_s_c_h_o_f_f_,
                     _R_i_c_h__B_r_o_w_n__a_n_d
                  _L_i_n_d_a__R_i_c_h_a_r_d_s_o_n

A college professor of medieval literature gets drunk at a party and
conjures up a demon (actually a half-demon, half human hybrid).
This demon, although she is 4,000 years old, looks like a 16 year
old coed if you ignore her hoofs, horns, and tail.  This book is
actually a collection of 5 short stories that appeared in
"Fantastic" in 1976 and 1977 under the pseudonym Michael F. X.
Milhaus.

These stories are old style Science-Fiction. Willis Baxter, the
professor has a problem or two to solve in each story. He grows as
he solves his problems.  Anathae's, the demon's, magic is essential
to the stories, but causes more problems than it solves.

This is a good book and if you do not object to a bit of magic, I
recommend it highly.

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

Subject: recommended first sf
Date: 08 Sep 85 01:26:20 PDT (Sun)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

I think my recommendation would be John Wyndham, particularly
"Chocky", "The Midwich Cuckoos", or "The Chrysalids".

Asimov and Clarke, of course, also come very quickly to mind.  I
might suggest Asimov's "I, Robot", and Clarke's "Earthlight".
Though I'm very tempted to include Asimov's "Nightfall", I think
that might better be left until after the first sf experience.

(By the way, there is a masterly story called, I think, "A Walk in
the Dark", about a man working on a moon or asteroid far out in the
solar system, far away from the Sun, whose environment suit lights
go out as he is working, and who has to walk back to his base in
utter blackness.  I think this one is by Clarke, but I'm not sure.
Can anybody confirm or correct this?  Thank you)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: l5!laura@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 8 Sep 85 11:51:20 GMT

I would opt for a good collection of short stories by a variety of
authors.  This is how I got my father (long time science fiction
hater) hooked. There is much more variation between science fiction
stories than, say, mysteries, and it is difficult to predict what
sort of science fiction someone is going to like. My father turns
out to be a great fantasy lover who can tolerate not-hard science
fiction -- but how to know that?

I ended up being lucky -- we were stuck on a 12 hour plane flight
and he was out of reading material and so started on mine --
beginning with a collection of Fritz Leiber short stories. Since he
loved that, I gave him the Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings, and The
Eternal Champion and...

If I had to select, though, I would get a Conklin collection. I have
friends who love science fiction ala Hogan, Niven and Asimov who
have never managed to see what I saw in Fafrd and the Grey Mouser. I
would want a collection that spans both the fantasy and the hard sf
end of the spectrum.

Also, I think that short fiction is more technically brilliant than
long fiction (on the whole! not in every instance!) because there is
no room to screw up in short ficiton and recover -- either it is
great or it flops.

Lord of Light is one of my favourite books, but it took me three
times to actually get down and read it -- the level of confusion hit
a certain point before it all was put together and I wasn't patient
enough until ... goodness!  I finally read that on the same plane
trip I mentioned before! Weird...

Okay, question time. Of the people out there who have read both Lord
of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness -- how many of you
liked the first one you read (whatever that was, unless you read
them at the same time) better? So far every single person I know who
has read both of them likes the first one they read better. I don't
know why.

Laura Creighton         (note new address!)
sun!l5!laura            (that is ell-five, not fifteen)
l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon 9 Sep 85 09:57:52-EDT
From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA
Subject: First SF Book

   I don't think it is possible to suggest any single book for all
persons.  If you want to successfully introduce one to SF, find out
what aspects of life, the universe, and everything the person is
interested in, then present them with a book having that particular
element.  My wife, for example, thought SF/Fantasy was mindless
garbage.  She works as a public health nurse and has a great
interest in social science, community structure & relations, etc.
So about five years ago I gave her a copy of "Alas, Babylon", a
SF-ish novel which does a fair job of describing the social changes
that could occur following nuclear war.  She loved it.  Next I gave
her "Dark December", similar story but more militaristic.  Same
result.  Over the last few years she has expanded her envelope and
"learned" what to expect from SF.  She recently finished "And the
Devil Will Drag You Under", "To Reign in Hell", and "The Forever
War".  All in the last two months.
   Similarily, a friend of hers (also a nurse) has become an avid
fan.  The first story I gave her was "Lord Foul's Bane", because I
knew she was deeply interested in people who pull into themselves
when faced with agony and despair (she had devoted her Master's
thesis to terminally ill patients and how they respond to various
pressures they can't control).  Another success story.  She
continued on to devour most of my collection.

   I've introduced a few others, but selected these two examples
because the two were SO against the thought of ever reading SF or
Fantasy.  I was also careful not to take it personally if someone
didn't like a novel I gave them.  Instead I would ask for their
impressions (+ and -), and try again with something else.

   I know there are some good intrductory novels, and some of the
suggestions I have seen I agree with, but I think it is more
important to know both the person and the novel equally well rather
than blindly taking someone's suggestion.

   --jd

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Hugo Winners 1985
Date: 8 Sep 85 03:11:42 GMT

I haven't seen these posted yet, and just pulled them off a local SF
oriented BBS. Without further ado, we have:

Best Novel: Neuromancer, by William Gibson
Best Novella: Press Enter, by John Varley
Best Novelette: Bloodchild, by Octavia Butler
Best Short Story: Crystal Spheres, by David Brin
Best Non-Fiction: Wonder's Child, by Jack Williamson
Best Artist: Mike Whelan
Best Editor: Terry Carr
Best Dramatic: 2010
Best Semi-pro 'zine: LOCUS
Best Fanzine: File 770
Best Fan Writer: Dave Langford
Best Fan Artist: Alexis Gilliland
John Campbell Award: Lucius Shepard

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission
Date: 8 Sep 85 02:12:05 GMT

>From: Keith F.  Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>[Once your genetic code is on disk...]
>
>    Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could
>    you ever truly die?
>
>  Sure.  If all the copies get wiped out.  Just as books,
>music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost.  The
>more copies, and in the more places, the better.  Keep one
>in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance).

I think that there is a misconception here.  Your species remains
reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do not.
Genetic code only allows somebody to make something that looks sort
of like you, not to remake you.  Suppose you are an identical twin.
That means your genetic code is not just preserved, it is up and
walking around.  Now you are killed by a rabid wombat.  Are you not
truly dead just because you have an identical twin walking around.
About the best you can do with the genetic code is create a baby
that will grow into something that will look no more like you looked
than your identical twin did.  Parents usually can tell the
difference between identical twins due to environmental (vrs.
hereditary) differences.  Sorry to tell you this, but when you die,
you die.  It doesn't matter if you have your entire genetic code on
file with the National Bureau of Standards.  There is no coming
back.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: baylor!peter@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: The Literature of Ideas
Date: 3 Sep 85 18:00:39 GMT

OK. You gave "Rendezvous with Rama" as one example, and "Glory Road"
as another. I don't see that this is in any way a refutation of my
thesis.  Even throwing in LeGuin and a few other authors doesn't
change things.

Item: Leguin and the other authors you mentioned with her are
outside the domain of SF. So, I think, are the other authors you
mentioned. One must distinguish between SF and literature with an SF
background. Stephen King writes plenty of the latter, but I don't
believe he has provided one new theme.

Item: Most of Clarke's writings, and now Bob Forward's, are pretty
bad literature, but they succeed by fulfilling the other and I
believe more important goal of being great SF. It is possible to
write great SF by concentrating on the SF aspect. It is not possible
to do so by concentrating on the literature. See, for example, the
works of Stephen King.

Item: 90% of SF is crud. So is 90% of everything else. How many
romances are great works of literature? How many westerns?

Item: Counterexamples to the assertion that SF is stylistically
flat: The Demolished Man, Golem 100,...

Peter da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076

------------------------------

From: l5!laura@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349)
Date: 8 Sep 85 12:02:56 GMT

I am not sure that most of the non-humans were skum and villany.
But suppose that the empire opresses non-humans in a way that it
does not opress humans.  (Or at least it doesn't opress humans in
this fashion systemetically. If most non-humans are either enslaved
or exterminated as a matter of policy, it is not surprising that
there are a great many rebel non-humans, or that non-humans tend to
no associate with humans (so they hang out at the Cantina Bar or
Jabba's place).

Laura Creighton         (note new address!)
sun!l5!laura            (that is ell-five, not fifteen)
l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Sep 85 0954-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #359
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Sep 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 359

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Bramah & Saberhagen &
                           Sucharitkul & Tolkien,
                   Miscellaneous - Critics & Star Wars (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: KAI LUNG'S GOLDEN HOURS
Date: 9 Sep 85 15:46:42 GMT

There was some recent traffic about the subject book, and others in
the series, by Ernest Bramah, to the effect that they are hard to
find and that copies on the used market are expensive. I have a
paperback edition of Cabell's JURGEN, on the back of which is a
pointer to a paperback edition of KAI LUNG'S GOLDEN HOURS, which
sold new then for $1.45. This is a trade-sized paperback, in "The
Xanadu Library" series, which appear to be printed in a manner
duplicating an older edition (that is, sort of a photographic
reproduction of the old book's pages).  I got my copy of Jurgen for
a few cents on a discount table, and I recall that there was at
least one copy of the Bramah book there also (this was quite a few
years back, but it sticks in my memory for some reason). I wasn't
interested in the Bramah book, so did not buy it.  There is no date
on my copy of Jurgen except the original 1919 copyright date, so I
don't know what the vintage of this paperback is. The address on my
copy for the publishers is:

Crown Publishers, Inc.
419 Park Ave. South
NY, NY 10016 (but the book shows no zip code, just zone 16)

Maybe this will help you find a cheaper reading copy. Good luck!

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Sep 85 12:23 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: The Books of Swords

I am surprised that no one has brought these books up before.  Since
we have been talking about magic and technology, these handle the
two quite well.  The books I refer to are Fred Saberhagen's Book of
Swords (the 1st, 2nd & 3rd).

You may remember Fred for his Berserker stories, but he is no slouch
at the epic fantasy either.  The technology is in the form of "Old
World" artifacts, such as flashlights and other items.  However,
magic and Gods are present, as are the twelve magic swords around
which the story revolves.  As every epic must have a poem, this one
is no exception.  I include it here as a teaser.  It doesn't spoil,
since it is recited in parts throughout the story.  I found these
books so enjoyable that I read the 2nd and 3rd in one sitting each.

Good Stuff!

Jon Pugh

 The Twelve Swords of the Gods

Who holds Coinspinner knows good odds
Whichever move he make
But the Sword of Chance, to please the gods,
Slips from him like a snake.

The Sword of Justice balances the pans
Of right and wrong, and foul and fair.
Eye for an eye, Doomgiver scans
The fate of all folk everywhere.

Dragonslicer, Dragonslicer, how d'you slay?
Reaching for the heart in behind the scales.
Dragonslicer, Dragonslicer, where do you stay?
In the belly of the giant that my blade impales.

Farslayer howls across the world
For thy heart, for thy heart, who hast wronged me!
Vengeance is his who casts the blade
Yet he will in the end no triumph see.

Whose flesh the Sword of Mercy hurts has drawn no breath,
Whose soul it heals has wandered in the night,
Has paid the summing of all debts in death
Has turned to see returning light.

The Mindsword spun in the dawn's gray light
And men and demons knelt down before.
The Mindsword flashed in the midday bright
Gods joined the dance, and the march to war.
It spun in the twilight dim as well
And gods and men marched off to hell.

I shatter Swords and splinter spears;
None stands to Shieldbreaker.
My point's the fount of orphan's tears
My edge the widowmaker.

The Sword of Stealth is given to
One lowly and despised.
Sightblinder's gifts; his eyes are keen
His nature is disguised.

The Tyrant's Blade no blood hath spilled
But doth the spirit carve
Soulcutter hath no body killed
But many left to starve.

The Sword of Siege struck a hammer's blow
With a crash, and a smash, and a tumbled wall.
Stonecutter laid a castle low
With a groan, and a roar, and a tower's fall.

Long roads the Sword of Fury makes
Hard walls it builds around the soft
The fighter who Townsaver takes
Can bid farewell to home and croft.

Who holds Wayfinder finds good roads
Its master's step is brisk.
The Sword of Wisdom lightens loads
But adds unto their risk.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Sucharitkul)
Date: 9 Sep 85 21:01:11 GMT

>            VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Somtow Sucharitkul)
>                      A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
>
> But the extent to which Somtow tries to put all of Jungian
> psychology in this novel smothers the originality that it would
> otherwise display.

Interesting.  It seems clear that you know a great deal more about
Jungian psychology than I.  I had not trouble enjoying the novel as
a straightforward story, with notes to myself to re-read it to see
what else was in it.  It may be that, coming from ignorance, the
books works better than you, who have some understanding of its
depths, might think.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: lzwi!nrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (N.R.HASLOCK)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 9 Sep 85 17:48:30 GMT

It seems to me that back when I was living in England and more hyped
on Tolkien than I am now, that there was frequent comments about his
writing technique.

He was a friend of C.S.Lewis and would meet regularly together with
some other literary friends. He would take sections of his current
work and read them to the group who would then criticise. Given the
probaility that all of the group had had 'classical' educations (
i.e. learnt greek from the works of the poets ) is it any wonder
that the stories work well when spoken.

Given that Tolkien's field of expertise was early english literature
which is heavily into alliteration, is it surprising that his style
is also alliterative.

Nigel {ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Critics and art
Date: 9 Sep 85 21:30:58 GMT

> From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
> My point, before and now, is that one must beware of those who
> claim that readability is a *necessary* criterion for artistic
> greatness.  Essentially, what I'm saying is this: I read a book,
> work hard at it because it isn't an easy book to read, get blown
> away by it, and tell people that it's a great book.  They come
> back and say, "It isn't easy, so you're wrong."  Moreover, they
> refuse to consider the possibility that expending more effort
> might convince them that there is something to my point of view.
> I can accept that some people do not want to spend effort on
> reading, that they read to relax and hear a good story, but I do
> object to having them then tell me that their criteria for art are
> better than mine, and that is precisely what some people have been
> saying.

I read John Crowley's LITTLE, BIG, worked hard at it because it
wasn't an easy book to read, and was blown away by it.  I have
recommended it to many people.  I am very glad I read it.  It was
beautifully crafted, and said things that I think are important to
say, and looked into things that deserved looking into.  It was not
a great book, however; it was too dificult to read to be a great
book.

I am, in fact, argueing that my criteria for art are better than
yours.  I am prepared to be proved wrong.  I entered the argument
because others were putting forward critera for art that I feel to
be invalid.  I have never objected to be told that my criteria are
inferior or incorrect, so long as I can disagree.

I am remaining in the argument because I am enjoying it.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349)
Date: 9 Sep 85 17:10:48 GMT

>Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a
>diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials and
>Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy?  And
>as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this?
>-- Josh Susser

A think that what we are dealing with here is a HUMAN empire.  What
non-humans we see on the imperial side are more in the nature of
auxiliaries rather than full imperial citizens. The rebel forces
consisted of human colonists and non-humans that are chaffing under
the restrictions of the empire. Also remember in 'Return of the
Jedi' there were many non-humans in the rebel forces.

                                        Joel Upchurch

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 1985  9:01:16 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Ray Chen (MS W420) <chen@mitre-gateway.arpa>
Subject: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons)

Personally, I the stormtrooper armor makes a fair amount of sense
once you consider what stormtroopers might have been meant to do.

I think that stormtroopers are combination ship, space station, and
garrison troops.

Stormtroopers seem suited (if you'll pardon the pun) for corridor
fighting and storming space ships, space stations, or fortresses is
basically corridor fighting.

Sure, the armor can't stop a direct hit from a high-powered hand
blaster or blaster rifle, but it'll help a lot in space-oriented and
garrison/defensive fighting.

The armor will stop things like small metal shards or light splashes
of molten metal which result when a blaster bolt hits two feet from
your head.  It should stop fists and your standard battle cutlery
(although I wonder how it's do against a claymore).  I think it'd
also stop deflections off walls and things.  In addition, the
communications facilities in the helmet provide everybody with the
means to talk to each other without having to scream over the sound
of the fighting.

Look at the weapons.  Blasters are good medium-distance weapons.  As
someone already indicated, though, a lightsabre is probably better
than a blaster in hand-to-hand combat.  The standard, stormtrooper
weapons seems to be geared towards standing off at 20 feet or so,
and shooting at each other.  This makes a lot of sense, though,
because in corridor fighting, facing blasters, unless you're a Jedi
knight (or insanely lucky), hand-to-hand fighting isn't possible
because in order to get within range, you've got to charge down 20
feet of straight corridor with no cover against an enemy who has
blasters.  I think you can also see why Imperial stormtroopers don't
carry grenades.  Detonating grenades on board a ship can be a very
dangerous proposition for all concerned.

The main disadvantage of the armor, as far as I can see, is that the
silly thing is white, a little clumsy, and restricts your vision.
The color doesn't really matter in close-corridor fighting and white
is actually a pretty good color under those circumstances anyway as
a lot of walls will tend to be painted a light color.  If you're not
planning on running the 100m dash, doing acrobatics, or getting into
hand-to-hand combat, you can live with being a little clumsy.
Restricted vision (e.g. no peripheral vision) doesn't really matter
in corridors either.  All in all, I think the armor makes for a good
set of trade-offs.

I think the idea of stormtroopers as indoor/corridor fighters makes
a lot of sense.  A high tech, space-faring empire needs indoor
fighters.  Ground and airborne assault troops will still have their
place, but when the chips are down and the enemy is standing firm in
a city, you send in the stormtroopers to dig them out house by
house.

This also explains why stormtroopers are so feared.  They, by
temperment and training, are so mean (and stupid, probably) that
they'll stand off at 20 feet in close quarters and trade blaster
shots until somebody backs down.  Most infantry hate indoor assaults
as the terrain gives the defender a huge advantage.  Stormtroopers,
though, are the exception.

Now, I know somebody's going to ask, "Well, why are there so many
stormtroopers?  It seems like all we see are stormtroopers."

Answer: Navy ships-of-the-line carry more stormtroopers than any
other type of infantry.  Since the situations we've seen are
situations where the Navy comes sailing in with Destroyers to do
something, of course, most of the troops you'll see should be
stormtroopers.

So, enough already about stormtrooper armor.  I think the armor
makes a lot of sense once you consider exactly what kind of fighing
stormtroopers might be geared to do.

        Ray Chen
        chen@mitre-gw

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 85 17:53 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Alien Lowlife in Star Wars

>Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a
>diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials and
>Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy?  And
>as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this?

'As a story teller' the answer is easy:  There seems to be a common
Hollywood myth (that I find difficult to buy) that since Hollywood
audiences consist of human beings (primarily, at least,) Hollywood
movies should consist primarily of human beings.  While there may be
some truth to the fact that the normal human has more difficulty
sympathizing with the plight of a giant sentient slug than with
Harrison Ford, there would certainly seem to have been enough
examples (from Chewbacca and the Ewoks to the bald armadillo in The
Last Starfighter) in recent years to contradict that Hollywood
mandate.  And remember, they airbrushed Spock's ears in the first
Star Trek posters, too.

Within the 'historical' context that Lucas establishes in the films,
I would imagine that the predominance of humans could be easily
explained by resort to any of a number of rationals which lump
together to form what is a disturbing undercurrent running through
much of the science fiction that I have seen and read.  That is,
that in some way, humans are 'special.'  In Lucas' universe, it may
be that humans did the colonizing first, are more vigorous and
versatile, are more driven to 'spread out', contain some
intellectual/psychological mental quirk which makes them 'superior',
or whatever, to end up (apparently) in control of things.  In other
scifi sources, the same tricks apply.  Even in stories where
humanity is inferior, it still seems to come out as different and
valuable.  There is always something that seems to set us apart.
Maybe it is the fact that we die, or have no form of universal
consciousness, or that we make war on ourselves (that seems to be a
well-used one) or that we have a kind of hybrid vigour, etc.  Niven
says it's limits, Saberhagen says its warmongering, (and I can't
think of any more examples amidst the flames here), etc.

Now all this makes for interesting reading, and it's bound to be
good for our racial self-image, and it may well be (as I would like
to believe in my more rational moments) that EVERY sentient species
is distinctive enough to warrant having novels written about it, but
just once (deep breath,) I'd like to see a story written where man
gets his come-uppance-- where an alien race finds us and is bored
because we're just like everybody else.  How would THAT affect our
collective psyches, I ask you??!!??

Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ?

(Actually, come to think of it, the one reason I liked Rondevouz
with Rama was that it was close to this kind of story.  Earth was
immensely excited about the first contact with a race that had come
all that way just to seek out man, and was left standing with it's
hand out as the ship sped off towards more interesting climes.)

I'm sure I wouldn't like a steady diet of these stories, but one
would sure feed my cynicism mightily.

Skeptically yours,
Chris
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Sep 85 1352-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #360
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 13 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 360

Today's Topics:

             Books - Heroic Fantasy & Reviews (2 msgs),
             Miscellaneous - Bars & Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Essays on fantasy backgrounds
Date: 9 Sep 85 17:09:03 GMT

There was a recent reference to the essay "On Thud and Blunder", in
Poul Anderson's collection, FANTASY (p. 159, Pinnacle/Tor Books,
1981). This is factual info on the environment behind a believeable
fantasy world and on fighting techniques.

Those who are interested in or enjoyed this should also read a set
of essays (called "commentaries") in HEROIC FANTASY, ed. by Gerald
W. Page and Hank Reinhardt (DAW Books, 1979). The first of these
credits Hank Reinhardt as the author, but the others make no mention
of the authorship, implying that Reinhardt wrote all of them. They
are:

"Commentary of Swords and Swordplay" (p.81)
"Commentary on Armor" (p. 134)
"Third Commentary on Courage and Heroism" (p.206)

(The titles are as I printed them; don't know why the last has the
word "Third" in it, when the others were not designated as "First"
or "Second".)

If you liked Anderson's essay, you'll like these.

Regards, Will

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Catching up on the backlist
Date: 9 Sep 85 01:46:24 GMT

For some reason, I finally seem to be catching up on my backlist of
things I've bought without quite finding the time to read.

Ratings:
*****   - a classic work (Shadow of the Torturer)
****    - a Must Buy (Peace War)
***     - an average work, you may or may not like it (Ringworld)
**      - doesn't live up to its expectations (Trumps of Doom)
*       - avoid at all costs (Bearing an Hourglass)

The Peace War by Vernor Vinge (Baen Books, $3.50). Rating: ****+
This book lost to Neuromancer for the 1985 Hugo, which means that
Neuromancer must be one heck of a book. The 'Peace Authority' has
ended all war with accidently discovered technology - the ability to
surround anything with a 'bobble,' an impervious shield. They have
also succeeded in setting up a new government that is at least as
oppressive and bloodthirsty as the old governments it replaced
(isn't that always the case?) The story is that of the fight by the
Tinkers, a group of high tech types, who are trying to get rid of
the Peace Authority.

This book works well at a number of levels. It is a strong hard-SF
book with good characters, a quickly moving and interesting plot,
and enough complexity to keep you around to the end. It also works
as a latter day fairy tail, a pro-hacker fantasy where the evil king
is overturned by the altruistic knighthood of techologists (the
knighthood, realistically enough, also has its black knights,
especially in the bioscience industry).  With all the
anti-technology and anti-hacker stuff in the medias, I found the
Peace War to be a breath of fresh air. Vinge doesn't even attempt to
say that technology is wonderful -- the premise of the book is the
mis-application of technology -- but he does make a good case that
technology is simply as good or bad as the applications. Well worth
reading, go out and get it.

--- (spoiler warning!)

Trumps of Doom, by Roger Zelazny (SFBook Club) Rating: **
Zelazny has come out with a new Amber book, the first in a new
series revolving around Corwin's son Merlin. It opens with someone
trying to kill Merlin, and it closes with someone imprisoning Merlin
so that someone can rescue him in the next book. Corwin is either
dead or crazy and hiding in shadows, and never makes an appearance.

The book has a lot of problems. The biggest problem is that there
isn't a single character in the book that you can like. All of the
Amberites come across as petty and small except Random, the new
ruler (in a walk-on part lasting just long enough to remind you he's
there). Merlin, well, the only word for Merlin is dense.

Take, for example, the opening sequence. Someone is trying to kill
Merlin.  In fact, someone has tried to kill Merlin each April 30th
for the last seven years, and Merlin is beginning to suspect that
someone doesn't like him. He fumbles around, a close friend is
killed, people pop in, ask silly questions, take shots at him, and
disappear again.

Not quick on the uptake. As a matter of fact, Zelazny tries very
hard to convince the reader that Merlin doesn't know about Amber and
his history.  He can walk Shadow and has rather outrageous physical
power, but for the first half of the book he is just a normal
college kid (well, mostly).

Halfway through the book, though, he goes and visits his father's
neighbor, Bill, the family lawyer (literally -- Random has used Bill
for various pieces of legal work over the years). They sit and talk
about Amber at great length. It is almost as if Zelazny started out
with Merlin not knowing his background and finding out he couldn't
get through the plot that way. Rather than go back and rewrite, he
just shifted gears, and all of a sudden we have someone who knew all
about the history of Amber, who had had repeated attempts on his
life, and didn't even wonder if they might have something to do with
each other (I mean, really. With the loving history of the Amber
family, isn't it conceivable that he might have ONCE thought that it
was an amberite after him? nahhhhhhhh). If Zelazny had even once
mentioned that Merlin knew about Amber, the entire first half of the
book becomes non-sensical. Instead, he plays with mirrors and fools
the reader, and I, for one, came out feeling ripped off.

Attached to this farce is his good college chum Luke. Amberites have
much better physical prowess than regular earthlings, yet when
Merlin runs into one person at the same college (the same place that
someone is trying to kill him, remember?) he doesn't think much
about it. In fact, he once explains it away as thinking that Luke
was simply in very good shape.  Right. This works only as long as
you believe that Merlin doesn't know about Amber. Once you shatter
that fantasy and realize that he knew about the physical superiority
of Amberites and their bloody history, the only reason left that
keeps Merlin from putting 1+1+1 (Amber history + Luke's physical
strength + someone trying to kill him) and realizing that (1) Luke
is from amber and (2) Luke is either trying to kill him or watching
him for the person who is (who is, of course, from Amber). All of
which turns out to be true. Merlin is either too stupid to care
about, or Zelazny is severely underestimating (and insulting) the
intelligence of the readers.

The book ends, of course, in a cliffhanger. As poorly written and
plotted as this book is, it isn't even a good cliffhanger. There is
no climax, it is as though Zelazny came to the end of chapter,
realized that he had hit is word count, and turned it in. "Stay
tuned for part TWO of this continuing saga...." and all that.

Merlin is a very uninteresting failure of a character, and this book
is a much worse book than Zelazny is capable of. The only reason to
recommend it at all is that it is an Amber book, and you'll have to
read it someday to continue the series. I hope Zelazny is smart
enough to can Merlin and bring back Corwin, or at least add some
common sense next time. Until then, try to wait until the paperback
comes out. Better yet, borrow it from a friend.  Three or four
people on a single book would probably break out just about even --
we cheat Zelazny of some royalties, just like he cheated us with his
sloppy writing.

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: More from the backlist
Date: 9 Sep 85 02:51:09 GMT

A few more titles from the backlist...

The Book of Kells by R.A.MacAvoy (Bantam Spectra, $3.50) Rating: **
Dying of the Light, by George R.R. Martin (Simon and Schuster)
   Rating: ****
Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (SFBook Club) Rating: <none>

Ratings:
*****   - a classic work (Shadow of the Torturer)
****    - a Must Buy (Peace War)
***     - an average work, you may or may not like it (Ringworld)
**      - doesn't live up to its expectations (Trumps of Doom)
*       - avoid at all costs (Bearing an Hourglass)

The Book of Kells by R.A.MacAvoy (Bantam Spectra, $3.50) Rating: **

The latest book by Ms. MacAvoy is a fairly well written but empty
story of ancient Ireland and the Celts. Even a bad book by MacAvoy
has its own charms, but this book isn't a "Tea with the Black
Dragon" or "Damiano". I found that halfway through the book I simply
didn't care about anything that was happening, and that is a good
reason to just put the book down, which I did. Others will probably
like it much more -- if you like MacAvoy or that flavor of
historical fantasy, try it and see, but be prepared to be
disappointed.

Dying of the Light, by George R.R. Martin (Simon and Schuster)
   Rating: ****

I recently found a hardback book of this on the local remainders,
and snapped it up since it is more or less out of print now. Martin
has come up with a strong book (the best of his work since "A Song
for Lya" about the goings on around a dying party world called
Worlorn. It was a pleasure to read it originally when a friend lent
me his copy, it was more of a pleasure to re-read it again.

Worlorn was put together as an interplanetary exposition where the
planets of the galaxy could show off its finery. As the rogue is
leaving the star system, the exposition is closed and the planet is
again dying. With this backdrop Martin explores both society and
marriage while tossing off a very well done travelogue.

Dirk T'larien comes to Worlorn following a call from an old lover,
Gwen.  Gwen is now bound to a nobleman from the planet of High
Kavalaan, where honor is bound by love and protected by violence.
The nobleman is there in an attempt to protect some of the
stragglers -- humans who didn't leave when the planet closed -- from
another Kavalaan clan that has come here for the sport of hunting
these 'mockmen.' An outsider, Dirk steps on toes through the
ignorance of the uninformed in a society where ignorance is not
permitted, and sets off a very complex series of events that
culminate in world spanning chases and confrontations with both the
people and with the societies they represent. Martin is really
taking a look at the darker sides of our own society, and the result
is both unnerving and compelling.  This book ought to make you
think; it is also quite entertaining as well, but is definitely not
a light read. If you can find a copy, by all means grab it.

Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (SFBook Club) Rating: <none>

I'm specifically NOT rating this book (that is not a rating of zero,
but no rating, a small but semantically important difference). This
is another book that I stopped halfway through, and while the book
is well written, I simply found myself unable to tolerate some of
the strong and rather graphic concepts it was dealing with.

On the planet of Geta, in times of famine the weak feed the strong.
Literally. The human's (evidently a semi-failed colony or some such)
has evolved into a highly ritualized cannabalistic society because
of the poisonous content of the world around them. Everything on
Geta is deadly to them (some quicker than others) and the only food
that is safely eaten is themselves. The culture evolved is violent,
highly structured, and has a strong element of self-mutilation
(ornamental and religious tatooing taken to an extreme) as well as
the cannibalization. The book is rather graphic, quite intense, and
doesn't pull its punches. If you can handle the subject matter, I
think you're in for a treat, but this book is definitely not for the
weak of heart or full of stomach.

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 85 12:38 PDT
From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Tall tales in Bars

Sparked mainly by the discussion of tall tales in bars stories
earlier this summer, I have spent some recent time reading
Callahan's stories, Draco Tavern stories, and others.  They have
prompted me to ask the following question (and since you all happen
to be sitting out there listening so nicely, I thought I'd ask it of
YOU!!-- who knows, maybe you've got an answer.)

What makes us think that any other species out there would have any
interest at all in a bar?  Granted, they seem to be fairly universal
earth customs, but why would an alien species have a desire to get
inebriated?  Or even to hold the sort of social concourse that a
tavern provides?  When you stand back and look at these quaint earth
customs (at least when I stand back and look at them,) they seem to
be kind of weird.  But then, that's one of the problems with being
isolated on some backwater planet in the boondocks of the galaxy--
since your species is the only one you've got to compare you to,
everything looks weird-- or everything looks normal.  Take your
pick.

So any way, what do you all think?

Chris
Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 85 13:15:02 PDT (Monday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
Subject: Lightsabers and Blasters

>From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
>On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons?  I
>had assumed that they were energy weapons, but I noticed that when
>I was watching 'The Empire Strikes Back' on tape a couple of nights
>ago, that the results were more like a explosive projectile.  I
>also noticed what seemed to be an ammo clip on one blaster.
>
>Since, I don't recall ever seeing anyone reload a blaster, I would
>have to postulate a very small projectile, like a small needle, so
>that each blaster could fire a hundred rounds or more without
>reloading.  It would also have an extremely high muzzle velocity,
>since KE = 1/2MV**2.

I wondered about this back when I first saw "Star Wars/A New Hope"
way back when.  Blasters definitely exhibit properties one would
ascribe to energy weapons, the ricochet off the magnetically sealed
walls of the trash compactor being a good example.  But blaster
bolts travel at very low velocities, something one wouldn't expect
from an energy weapon.  Then there was the matter of lightsabers and
how they worked - lightsabers were apparently similar in nature to
blaster bolts, but a stationary effect.  Using these data I
formulated a hypothesis to explain the behavior of these weapons.

                     --- My Hypothesis ---

Blasters are energy projectile weapons.  A blaster bolt is identical
to the blade of a lightsaber.  Both bolts and blades are composed of
coherent light (a laser), or plasma, or maybe lasing plasma, that is
contained by a magnetic jacket.

This is a very convenient explanation of the physics behind these
weapons, as it accounts for much of the un-laserlike behavior of
blasters.  Laser pulses don't spontaneously degenerate into
explosions at an arbitrary range, but putting a certain amount of
energy into the magnetic jacket could cause it to decompose near its
target range.  Lightsabers blades are solid to one another, and to
blaster bolts.  This can be explained by interference of the
magnetic jackets.  This explanation also accounts for defensive
shields - a strong magnetic field could possibly deflect a
magnetically jacketed bolt.

Oh well, I suppose one can explain anything with fictional science.
Anyone with a knack for hardware care to test my hypotheses for me?
If so, I'd like a *blue* lightsaber, please.

Josh Susser
<Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Sep 85 1422-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #361
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 13 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 361

Today's Topics:

               Books - Clarke & Delany & Kingsbury &
                       First SF,
               Miscellaneous - Critics & Time Travel &
                       Star Wars & Scientology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cvl!eli@topaz.rutgers.edu (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: recommended first sf
Date: 10 Sep 85 18:13:33 GMT

> From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>
> (By the way, there is a masterly story called, I think, "A Walk in
> the Dark", about a man working on a moon or asteroid far out in
> the solar system, far away from the Sun, whose environment suit
> lights go out as he is working, and who has to walk back to his
> base in utter blackness.  I think this one is by Clarke, but I'm
> not sure.  Can anybody confirm or correct this?  Thank you)

Yes, that's the title, I just read it last night.  Real neat story.
It's in a collection of stories by Clarke called ``Reach for
Tomorrow''.  I sat down with the intention of just reading one or
two stories from it, but ended up reading the whole thing... *sigh*
...when will I learn?  Just as I was finishing the story, there was
this unmistakable `clicking' sound....

                        -eric messick
University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526
ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep
CSNET: liang@cvl  UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Ellison on Dhalgren
Date: 9 Sep 85 14:51:59 GMT

In defense of the wrap-around beginning and ending of Dhalgren (or
at least in expansion of same):

The book begins with:
        to wound the autumnal city.

The book ends with:
        I have come to

We therefore have a (possibly interesting) interpretational
question.  Is the complete sentence

        I have come to wound the autumnal city.
                     or
        I have "come to" to wound the autumnal city.

If you merge the two to's, you have a straight declaration of
destructive intent.  If you do not merge them, the narrator has
"come to", woken out of unconsciousness, and the meaning can be
entirely different.

People who dislike Dhalgren probably don't care, and I can
appreciate their position.  For myself, it's just one more point to
show that Delany is not quite a simplistic as appears at first
glance.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Courtship Rite
Date: 9 Sep 85 15:54:02 GMT

From Chuq's review of Courtship Rite, I can only conclude that he
has a much weaker stomach than mine.  I had no problem with the
material at all (then again, I've read a good deal about ritual
scarring practices on earth, so I wasn't taken aback by the
descriptions in the book).

The basis of the book is interesting biologically.  We are obviously
looking at a colony that has descended from pacifists who fled the
wars of earth.  They have no meat animals; maybe the original
colonists didn't bring any, maybe they all died.  They have eight
types of plants brought from earth (wheat, potatoes, etc.).  These
are the only sources of food, because the indigenous forms of life
are incompatible with earth life.  (You can't eat local plants
because they're poisonous; local insect life can't eat your crops,
because the insects die almost immediately.)

The founding colonists were very big on biological technology, and
this is the only type of technology that was preserved over the
years.  The current inhabitants can splice genes with their eyes
closed, but you're halfway through the book before the bicycle is
invented.

Because of the biological emphasis of the book, the tribes of the
planet are very conscious of the evolutionary process.  Tribes tend
to specialize in one or two areas of activity, then breed their
members for superiority in those areas.  They do this by giving
everyone a rating on an "evolutionary value" scale, based on
intelligence, physical constitution, presence of desirable traits,
etc.  Everyone wants to mate with someone at the same level on this
scale, or higher.  This ensures true evolutionary progress.  For
example, the tribe that has decided to specialize in inter-city
travel (escorting travellers, running with messages, etc.) have
incredible endurance, while the tribe that specializes in producing
courtesans have incredible beauty, agility, and so on.

Cannibalism is central to the society, since there is no other
source of meat.  It is important to stress, however, that the
cannibalism is restricted to the ritual eating of those who have
died for some other reason.  In times of famine, those with low
evolutionary potential (and criminals) are "culled" from the
population, not really for the meat (although they are eaten) but
because of the strong evolutionary views of the people: when
resources are scarce, you do not squander them on those who will not
advance the future of the species.  There is never any suggestion
that they kill specifically to produce meat; indeed, they look upon
meat as the stuff that you're forced to eat when you fall on hard
times.

The ritual scarring in the book is highly reminiscent of tribal
practices in Africa.  Indeed, my wife is annoyed that the
illustration on the front of the book shows a white woman, because
white skin does not scar as attractively as black skin does (yes,
some African tribes have long histories of choosing mates on the
attractiveness of their scars, so these same tribes have gradually
come to have skin that scars beautifully).  There are many good
reference books on ritual scarring, and I have seen colour photos of
quite expansive scar drawings.

As a book, Courtship Rite is a very interesting read, even though it
falls flat towards the end.  The problem is that it is two different
stories tied together.  The original story (published in Analog, I
believe) was the story of a group marriage (two women, three men)
who are ordered to marry a sixth woman.  Why?  Because this
particular tribe values the ability to win friends, and the woman is
a charismatic preacher who has won a large following.  Her abilities
will increase the tribe's chances for survival.  However, the group
in question want to marry someone else instead.  To avoid marrying
the preacher, they invoke a rule that says they're allowed to test
someone's overall evolutionary potential before marriage.  The
particular testing rite they choose is one that has a good chance of
killing the preacher before it's over.

All well and good.  But the author has superimposed another story on
top of the courtship rite, a story about the discovery of war after
centuries of pacifism and whether a pair of tribes will go to war or
avoid it.  This second story is the more powerful of the two and the
author hasn't managed to integrate it very well with the other.  The
war problem is resolved 100 pages from the end of the book...then we
are returned to the courtship, which is an anticlimax.  I would have
been much happier if the author had managed to tie off the two
stories simultaneously, or at least 70 pages closer together.  Rate
it ***1/2 for the story premise, and **1/2 for the story itself.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 85 10:50:30 edt
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: SF with which to tempt new readers

No, not The Mote In God's Eye!  That's so boring I ground to a halt
halfway through reading it and never even WANTED to pick it up
again.  *I'll* say Niven's going through a dry period.  Niven mixed
with Jerry Pournelle is like tacos laced with dry oatmeal.

I even think The Left Hand of Darkness is risky business.  I loved
it, but know people who found it obscure or boring.  I'd find out
the prospective reader's taste in other literature and try to match
to it.  If that weren't possible, I'd offer a "Best SF of 198X".
When in doubt, try a smorgasbord.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: critics (Long!!)
Date: 9 Sep 85 22:10:37 GMT

> Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it
> can't be great art?  And if you have to work to understand it,
> ditto?

No and yes.

> You might argue (as many did when Joyce, Eliot, and Pound first
> published) that it's perverse and snobbish to pour a great talent
> into the production of work that's more or less opaque to the
> average *contemporary* reader.  Such work may show a certain lack
> of social or political concern on the part of the artist, but I
> don't see why that makes it bad art.

There is a clear and present danger that we will soon find ourselves
attempting to define "art."  I would enjoy the effort, but I enjoy
futile persuits.  However, a work that is opaque to the average
contemporary reader is never, in my opinion, great art.  It is fine
if the reader has to work at it; it is flawed if the reader has
insufficant reason to want to.

> Anyway, what about older books?

I don't understand.  What about them?

> How much fun is Hamlet the first time around?

Quite a bit, in my opinion.  Shakespeare can be enjoyed on any
number of levels.  One can also learn vast amounts from him.  But
can always be enjoyed, even the first time one sees one of his
plays, or even reads one (if you happen to be someone who can read a
play).


>>One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how
>>long is the author remembered?
>
> By whom?  Homer's work is a hell of a lot of fun once you get into
> it.  So are the Canterbury Tales; so's a lot of Shakespeare, for
> that matter.  How much of this stuff would have survived at all if
> it hadn't been preserved and taught in the schools?

We have no disagreement here.  All of the things you have just
mentioned are things that I consider to be great art.

Fun, aren't they?

>>what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a
>>hundred years failed to write stories or books that were fun to
>>read?
>
> All these people wrote works that were fun to read, but they
> didn't STAY fun to read when their languages ceased to be current.

Here we just disagree.  I can't think of anything else to say.

>>But the point about critics is this: I believe that good writing
>>must be accessable.  But "accessable" varies from person to
>>person.
>
> I suppose I'm saying that in order to have good writers, you have
> to have good writers -- not hard writers or easy ones, just good
> ones.  I think if you insist that a work be easy reading and fun
> (RIGHT AWAY!), you may not be giving it a chance.

I don't "insist" on that, and I do, in fact, read authors who force
me to work and are not enjoyable.  These people are craftsmen in
their own way.  But I do not call them artists.  What they produce
just isn't good enough.  And this distinction--what is and is not
art--actually matters to me, for what reasons I'm not sure.  I am
sure of opinions on what makes for great art-- just as I am sure
that these opinions will change, perhaps into their opposite, as I
continue to read and think about what I've read.

> One of the reasons I enjoy reading the newsgroups is that, just as
> in more formal publications, people write well here.  I just can't
> believe such good writing has developed without at least some
> study of our language and literature.  I think I know what the
> work of people who read only "fun stuff" looks like: as an editor,
> I'm often called on to reorganize their writing for publication.
> To my knowledge [!!!] I've never seen clear, fluent, interesting
> writing from someone whose first criterion for choosing a book was
> that it be accessible.  If that's what I'm looking at now, well,
> it's never too late to learn.

If there is an implication here that I write well, thank you.  You,
too.  The points you raise are well taken.  But I continue to
disagree.  I'm glad I read Moby Dick.  There was a lot to it.  But
it failed as art.  Huckleberry Finn did not.  There was as much
going on underneath, but Twain didn't leave the roof off his house.
It had a top level--fun--that was there too.  Melville should have
had an editor with a big blue pen.  It wasn't fun.  I don't think it
will last.  I could (always always always) be wrong.

                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: oliven!martin@topaz.rutgers.edu (Martin L.W. Hall)
Subject: Re: Two questions on "Back to the Future"
Date: 10 Sep 85 15:59:08 GMT

I have an interesting question: Is November 5 .... an important day
for time travel?  Both _Back_to_the_Future_ and _Time_After_Time_
(about H.G. Wells and Jack the Ripper) use that day as either a
takeoff or arrival date....are there other movies that use this
day...or is it just a coincidence?

                Martin Lewis Walter Hall
                Olivetti Advanced Technology Ctr.
                20300 Stevenscreek Rd., Cupertino, Cal. 95014
                (408) 996 3867  ext 2204
reply to:
hplabs \
allegra >  !oliveb!oliven!martin
ios    /

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349)
Date: 9 Sep 85 15:07:55 GMT

milne@uci-icse writes:
>> Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a
>> diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials
>> and Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy?
>> And as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this?

The game "Freedom in the Galaxy" from Avalon Hill is a fairly
accurate recreation of a Star Wars-like setting, and it proposes a
useful explanation for the widespread domination of humanoid life.
Humans entered the galaxy from another one (far far away) in search
of scientific freedom (in much the same way that many people came to
North America in search of religious freedom).  In particular, they
were looking for a place where they could perform far-sweeping
genetic experiments.  The humans created many many genetic hybrids
that were half-human, half another race.  In this way, they
hybridized most of the existing sentient species in the galaxy,
making humanoid versions of everything.

Time passed.  Hybrids spread.  The older races became worried about
the hybrids, because they had all the good points of the old races
plus the good points of humans as well.  Wars broke out.  The
hybrids all aided each other, while the older races tended to fight
individually (they had no evolutionary ties to species in other star
systems).  In the end, most of the older races were wiped out and
replaced by hybrids.

The result is a galaxy where most of the sentient beings are about
human height, are bipedal, have two arms, one head, and so on (one
could sometimes be fooled into thinking they were just humans in
costumes!)  The dominant race was purely human because the hybrids
had built in deference instincts to humans (the scientists who built
the original hybrids weren't dumb).  Therefore humans were the
natural rulers (because hybrids would defer to them) and the human
form was the de facto standard.  Gross deviations (like Jabba the
Hut) are hold-overs from the old races and only achieve power
through exceptional circumstances.

I love pseudo-science.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 85 09:04:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: re: Scientology and stories

(about scientology)
> ....to a cult featured in a Norman Spinrad book, 'The Mind Game'.
> The novel concenrs a hack sf author who finds that a novel he has
> written is the basis for a cult.  He takes over the cult...

This msg implied a level of parallelism between this novel & L. Ron
H.  This may be...but I don't think he took over Scientology...from
what I understand he created it from the start....on the other hand,
there is always R.A.H. & _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_.....

Richard Hartman
max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Sep 85 1457-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #362
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 14 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 362

Today's Topics:

               Books - Cook & Goldstein & Harrison &
                       Niven (2 msgs) & Tolkien (2 msgs) &
                       First SF Book & Award Winners,
               Miscellaneous - Contacting Authors &
                       Chris Lloyd & Matter Transmission &
                       Critics & Choosing Books &
                       Illustrated Books and Large Print &
                       Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 85 00:50:55 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: More Books by Glen Cook ...

According to Glen Cook, the second volume of the Silth War trilogy
is due out sometime this month and the third one is due out in
January.

He also claims that he has sold two more Dread Empire books, but
that they do not have release dates yet.  I don't know why, but I
have the feeling that the books are not written yet.

        Steve Z.

P.S. Would you believe he only writes 1000 words a day?  And he
works 9 hours a day, 6 days a week on an assembly line?  This is
what he claimed on a panel at the NASFIC in Austin.  (When asked why
he worked on the assembly line he replied that he needed the money.)
He is becoming a slightly better speaker on panels it seemed to me.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 85 01:35:37 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: The Red Magician ...

I believe it is by Lisa Goldstein.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 85 01:08:59 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Stainless Steel Rat, a new book.

Some one asked about rumors of a new Stainless Steel Rat book (I'm
afraid I don't remember who asked though, I just read SF-L from
August 17th to current - Sep 11th - and forgot to take notes).
Well, that rumor is true.  The new book is

                   A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born

and as the title implies it is about Slippery Jim's youth, up to
about age 19 I think.  The book is an October release from Bantam
under the Spectra line, it may be in your bookstore now for all I
know.  Releases fom several publishers seem to appear about the
middle of the previous month.  I found a copy of the book in the
dealers room at the NASFIC.

If you're a Harry Harrison or Stainless Steel Rat purist/collecter
then by all means bop out and buy the book.  Otherwise, well, maybe
give it a pass.  It's an easy enjoyable read like the other
Stainless Steel Rat books but I found it somewhat disappointing.  I
felt that the young Jim diGriz was too basically competent at
everything and behaved too much like the older Slippery Jim that we
are accustomed too.  It was less like watching the birth a stainless
steel rat than it was like watching Slippery Jim magically made
physically (but not mentally) young again.

Imnstead of buying the book, I would recommend waiting for the
library (or a friend) to buy a copy and then borrowing if you really
want to read it.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: Wed Sep 11 11:37:58 1985-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <taw@s1-c.arpa>
Subject: Re: Planetary maps on the Ringworld

Paula Sanch points out that the Protectors induced large-scale
vulcanism on the Pak home planet to get metal to build the
evacuation fleet.  Thus, the Map of Pak might be unrecognizable.

True, the Protectors *may* have ripped up the landscape to get metal
for the evacuation fleet.  That is Truesdale's and Brennan's
speculation.  Even if they did muck up the Pak homeworld in order to
escape the explosion of the galactic core, they must certainly have
recordings of what the planet looked like before they destroyed it.
If they are going to "decorate" the Ringworld with Maps of Earth,
Kzin, etc. (which surely must be built from recorded information) a
Map of Pak (before the fall) is not unreasonable.

Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)
MILNET: <taw at MORDOR> <taw at S1-C>
UUCP:   ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw  ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw

------------------------------

From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Protectors and Known Space Novels
Date: 11 Sep 85 00:25:59 GMT

> Seems to me this "Niven has painted himself into a corner"
> argument is a crock, at least from Niven's point of view.  Why
> can't he write a novel or some short stories occuring during, say,
> the first Man/Kzin war?  What about some new Gil Hamilton stories?
> I'm sure these would be well received.
>
> Certainly, he's probably constrained from furthering the history
> and mythos of Known Space, but I hardly think this prevents him
> from writing about it entirely.

I agree he probably could, but I suspect he's bored with it.

> I heard from a friend of a friend that talked to Niven at a
> convention.  (Can YOU say "rumor"? I knew you could.)  He said the
> reason he has collaborated so much in recent years is that he has
> been/is in a "dry" period, ideawise.  However, this was before
> "Integral Trees" which, if nothing else, had some interesting
> ideas...

*Integral Trees* certainly is interesting!  (``Dry period,''
indeed!)  I think the ``world'' of *Integral Trees* is at least as
good a world-creation idea as *Ringwood* -- particularly since
*Integral Trees* was a *natural* rather than constructed feature
(and might even exist somewhere).

I talked to Larry Niven at WesterCon this last July, and he said
that he was, at that time, eleven chapters into a sequel to
*Integral Trees*!  (He said he was rewriting some of the earlier
chapters to better fill out the civilization he was developing.)
I'm certainly looking forward to it!

The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new universe of the
State is *A World Out of Time* -- which I also found very enjoyable.
As a vision of what might happen on Earth over the next few
*millions* of years, it was fascinating!

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
(415) 960-9367
..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names
Date: 10 Sep 85 19:16:22 GMT

nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) writes:
>It seems to me that back when I was living in England and more
>hyped on Tolkien than I am now, that there was frequent comments
>about his writing technique.
>
>He was a friend of C.S.Lewis and would meet regularly together with
>some other literary friends. He would take sections of his current
>work and read them to the group who would then criticise. ...

I think the group was called the Inklings or something similar.
Another member of the group was Charles Williams, writer of
fantasies like 'All Hallow's Eve.'
                            -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 85 01:33:07 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Tolkien

The book about Tolkien by Lin Carter is "Tolkien: A Look Behind the
Lord of the Rings" copyright 1969 my copy is a paperback from
Ballantine.  I read the book sometime ago, so do not remember the
contents all that well, but the table of contents and the blurb on
the inside assert that the book is about how LOTR grew out of the
tradition of the classical epic

I also have a copy of a smaller book called "Understanding Tolkein
and the Lord of the Rings" by William Ready copyright 1968 printed
by Coronet Communications under the Paperback Library imprint.  This
one appears to relate LOTR to Tolkien's own life.

I do not really recall either of these books well, as I read them at
least 10 years ago, quite possibly 14 years.  (It can't be any
longer than that due to the printing dates on one of them.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 85 14:21:38 EDT
From: Peter.Su@CMU-CS-GANDALF
Subject: First SF book

I have found that non-SF readers tend to really like Shatterday, by
Harlan Ellison, of course, these are short stories, but what the
heck.

Pete
ARPA: hugo@cmu-cs-gandalf.arpa      BELL:412-681-7431
UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,ihnp4,cmucspt}!hugo@cmu-cs-gandalf.arpa
USPS: 5170 Beeler St., Pittsburgh PA 15213

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 85 17:55:00 GMT
From: HUGHEE84%IRLEARN.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: HUGO and NEBULA winners.

I wonder can anyone help with a list of HUGO and NEBULA winners. I
am looking for the list of winning novels from 1975 onwards, which
is where a few lists I do have start to disagree. Also, does anyone
have the list of winning novels for the JW Campbell and IFA awards
and for how long have these two prizes been given ? Reply direct if
you like, thanks.

Martin Hughes
BITNET:  HUGHEE84 AT IRLEARN
ARPA:    HUGHEE84%IRLEARN.BITNET@UCBVAX.ARPA

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: Re:  Getting in contact with an author
Date: 9 Sep 85 15:37:43 GMT

In general, writing to the author's publisher is the fastest way to
first get in contact with the writer.  If the author personally
responds, a return address is usually included for further
correspondence.  On the other hand, if an agent or secretary
responds, you may get a form-letter---and this is probably because
the author is swamped by fans, business proposals, etc.  (I would
guess that Asimov, Heinlein, etc., are in this category.)  In that
case, further correspondence should be routed through the secretary,
agent, or (again) the publisher.

In contrast to Brust's publisher, mine (Doubleday and Signet)
forward messages with alacrity.  And so far, I have managed to
answer each letter personally, and have included my home address for
further correspondence...and there has been considerable "further
correspondence."  But what the hell, it's enjoyable, otherwise I
might not do it.

Dennis L. McKiernan
{ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbuxc!dim

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 85 11:58 EDT
From: Jessie Tharp <ops@ncsc>
Subject: Christopher Lloyd

I noticed that the Gestapo chief's aide in Mel Brooks _To_Be_Or_
Not_To_Be was played by Christopher Lloyd.

Jessie (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 85 19:50:08 EDT
From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
Subject: matter transmission and duplication

oboy.  we get to talk about matter transmission again.

i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't
care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm dead.
you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face, but *i*'ll
still be dead.

you can walk into a disintegrator beam and have a copy of you made
on another planet if you want, but i'm fond of this particular copy
of myself.

i suppose that's why i don't have any interest in having children.

                                        don provan@cmua.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Wed Sep 11 17:24:53 1985
From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson)
Subject: anti-art snobbery -- a clarification

Okay, okay, I'll come out of the woodwork one final time.  I did the
original posting about Anti-Art Snobs, which Jerry Boyajian alone of
all the net seems to have taken as a personal attack on his own
reading tastes.  Please listen again to what I was trying to say.

SURELY everyone has met people who take pleasure in disliking "artsy
fartsy" writing/painting/music, simply because it IS art?  SURELY
you have seen people who actually take pride in the fact that they
don't understand 'works of literature?'  I know so many of them they
must be fairly common critters.  Many times I have met people who
scorn taking English courses in college because they make you read
"literature" -- they thumb their noses at "literature" because 'we
all know nobody but <snort> English teachers like that stuff!'
There IS a snobbery *against* artistic work as much as there is
snobbery on the part of art-types.  I was perceiving undertones in
the net discussion of DHALGREN that some people disliked it
*because* it was artsy, and once they had come to that decision,
they gave up reading the book without further effort.  They loudly
flamed against the book (not necessarily you, Jerry Boyajian -- my
posting was neither aimed directly at you as a person or DHALGREN as
a book), and seemed to be implying that nobody should bother to read
it because it was just artsy drivel.  There are some books which can
give enjoyment without requiring any effort on the reader's part,
such as pure action/adventure SF and other subgenres, but there are
other books which do require reader participation, and one should
not simply dismiss such a book as "oh well, that's just arsty crap
anyway!"  <snort of derision>.  I'm not saying that everyone must
like DHALGREN or *any* book; I'm saying that to dismiss such a book
because it is "artsy" is not being fair.

I'm rather surprised and disappointed at the vehement reaction to
what I had considered to be a fairly innocuous posting.

                                        Kevin J. Anderson

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 85 11:04:43 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Separating wheat from chaff

Actually, I think this would tend to tell more about the writer of
the rules than anything else, i.e. I happen to LIKE smart dolphin
stories!

Here's my set of decision rules, in no particular order:

1. Author Name Recognition -- if it's Zelazny, it must be worth
reading, etc.

2. Recommendation From a Friend -- "I don't CARE if you think Piers
Anthony is a repetitious, misogynous, money hungry sot!  Read 'On a
Pale Horse' or I'll KILL you!"

3. Random -- Better than 3 on a six-sided die.

4. [Very rarely] Craving For a Theme -- such as my recent search for
computer science fiction.

I make a point of NEVER reading a back-cover blurb or teaser page
until AFTER I have read the book (such things are ALWAYS inaccurate
and usually spoilers.)  I try not to let cover art influence me, but
sometimes it does.  Reviews are anathema to me, therefore I cannot
base decisions on such.

Perry

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 85 02:06:38 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Illustrated books and "large" print

Note : this is intended as an informational response to the message
listing criteria for buying a book, not as a rebuttal of any of the
criteria listed.

Although I'm not keen on the novellas padded to novel length with
illustrations, I did see/hear an assertion that it was a fairly
recent affectation that lead to publications of novels w/o any
illustration at all.  What little evidence I have gathered by
personal observation seems to indicate that this is true, on the
other hand they never seem to have padded novellas to novel length
that way in "those days".

At the NASFIC, during question and answer session of one of the
panels (I don't remember which one, I only made it to about 4 panels
all weekend and I couldn't tell you which they were if I tried)
someone asked a question that was basically "Why are you trying to
rip us off by printing books with larger print and then charging us
the same price as you do for normal length books with smaller print?
If you didn't use that larger print the book would be smaller and we
could pay less for these shorter books.".  An editor/publisher
responded by saying that publishers only started using the smaller
print when paper costs started to go up, and that they did so to
save money and keep the cost of books down, however they would
prefer to print all books with the slightly larger print since they
believe it is easier to read the larger print.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: leadsv!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Salander)
Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons)
Date: 11 Sep 85 19:37:07 GMT

According to rumors I have heard, if you removed
the stormtrooper's armor, you would see that they
are all CLONES!

(And that Obi-Wan is really OB1, original body one!)

stay tuned!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Sep 85 1516-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #363
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 14 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 363

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Card & Tremayne,
                      Music - SF and Music,
                      Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & 
                              Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: smcvax!robert@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission
Date: 11 Sep 85 19:02:00 GMT

>  A person's genetic code would fit on one or two RA81 disks.
>James Hogan's idea (in _Voyage from Yesteryear_ (1982)) that unborn
>people may travel to the stars in the form of data on a computer
>may be workable.
> [paragraph deleted]
>    Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could you
>ever truly die?

Along these lines, read _The_Hot_Sleep_ by Orson Scott Card

Robert Wallace
ctvax!smcvax!robert

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: Peter Tremayne
Date: 12 Sep 85 20:13:32 GMT

bjl@bridge2.UUCP writes:
>Awhile back (and I still have the book) I read a book by Peter
>Tremayne (a british publication) which was the first in a fantasy
>trilogy, I have forgotten the name of the book, it is something
>"Lan".  Has anyone else read it?  Or been able to locate the second
>and third books?

The books you are referring to are:

        The Fires of Lan-Kern
        The Destroyers of Lan-Kern
        The Buccaneers of Lan-Kern

nThey are published by Methuen paperbacks.  They are british, as you
said.  I have only read the first book so far, but I enjoyed it and
plan on getting the others.  I found them at Tales From the White
Hart in Baltimore.  I suggest you find a science fiction specialty
shop in your area and ask them about the books.

                        the Shadow
                        ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
                        UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Sep 1985 13:38:01-PDT
From: maxwell%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: SF Music

Back in V 10 #277 (July), druxo!knf@topaz.arpa mentions a song
"Children of the Sun", which I believe is actually a reference to
the song "After the Gold Rush", on an album by a group called (I
think) Gold Rush. This song is particularly memorable to me, is the
first cut on the album, and is sung [excellently] acappella.  It [at
least the last part?] goes something like:

I was lying in a burned out basement
with the full moon in my eye.
I was hoping for a replacement,
when the sun burst through the sky.

There was a band playing, in my head,
and I felt like getting high,
thinking about what a friend had said,
I was hoping it was a lie.

"Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceship flying,
in the yellow haze of the sun.
There were people crying, and banners flying,
all around the chosen one.

All in a dream, all in a dream,
the loading had begun.
Flying Mother Nature's silver seed
to a new home in the sun.
Flying Mother Nature's silver seed
to a new home in the sun."

The song is very haunting, both in its content and its execution.
The remainder of the album struck me as being mildly religious....

Sid Maxwell, DEC @ Spit Brook Rd, Nashua NH

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 85 03:49:05 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Critics and how DID we form our dislikes for them?

Although I have no great love for the majority of critics, who to me
seem to be critics mostly because they are incapable of doing
anything more creative than downgrading other peoples work.  I am
somewhat disturbed by the virulence I see in the "anti-critic" side
of this debate.  I wonder where people picked up such hardened and
harsh points of view (I'll come back to this later).

I suppose I should be as disturbed by the harshness of some the
"pro-critic" debaters also, but I have come to expect it of that
side of the argument.  I have met far too many supposedly educated,
liberal people who were totally incapable of admitting that there
might be any viewpoint but their own.  My experience has been that
these people argue like Mr Tucker.  It is arguments like his that
provoke my own dislike of "Art" and those who espouse it; in
politics it is people who argue the way he does that push me away
from the "liberal" side of issues and towards the conservative side.
As the old line goes, "I may not know Art, but I know what I like";
and I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else deny me the
right to make my own choices.  Even when my preferences changes from
year to year and even day to day.  I would rather be an ignorant
barbarian (but not a philistene since I am of the wrong religion for
it) than one of the elite who deny others the right to an opinion.

I don't know about anyone else, but for me one of the great
turn-offs on "Art" and "Literature" was the English classes at all
levels that made reading and writing into chores.  It seemed as if
their intent was to deny me the right to have a personal
interpretation of a work different from the teacher's approved
interpretation.  Poetry wasn't read for the sake of poetry, but
instead to determine the meter, count the alliterations, pull it
apart and label the onomatopaeia (sp?).  I had one teacher that had
us searching in Hamlet to find all the "famous" quotes (there are a
surprising number of them by the way), and she gave out work sheets
with busy work of finding particular lines in the play, no
particular reason for the lines, just busy work so she could give us
grades.  I think if she had had her way, we would simply have
wandered back and forth in the text without ever seeing a
performance of Hamlet (and let's face it Shakespeare wrote his plays
to be performed not to be read out of a book), fortunately she had
been ill for quite a stretch and another teacher standing in for her
took us to see a video-tape of a very good production of Hamlet and
worked us most of the way through Hamlet AS A PLAY so that we did
get some appreciation for the skill and beauty that went into
Shakespeare's works.

Hmm, that last paragraph went on a bit didn't it?  Well, at any rate
these experiences in high school and junior high pretty much soured
me on "Art" and "Literature".  It's taken years to recover from the
damage done by some of those "teachers"; I must also admit that
being one of the social outcasts of the school system peer groups
tended to harden my attitudes a lot by driving me deeply into
escapist literature.  I wonder how many of the other "anti-critic"
faction have suffered from similar ways of being force fed culture,
art, and literature in the wrong way or at the wrong time.  Or in
other ways denied the right to have their own opinions and
interpretations.

Each work speaks to each of us in a different way, depending on the
other things we have seen and done in our lives.  To deny someone
the validity of their vision, or belief simply because it is not the
same as yours is, in some ways, to deny that person's very humanity;
the very same spark of humanity you claim to be promoting by trying
to forcefeed your opinions on "Art" and "Literature".

I read SF primarily to be entertained; I always have.  I don't want
to have to work too hard at it; I have to read too many computer
manuals and other technical things at work and for school.  But I
must admit, it is nice to know that there is a Gene Wolfe out there
in the field (even if I don't understand everything in the Book of
the New Sun), and a Harlan Ellison, and others writing something
besides the purely entertainment things.  And maybe I'll understand
all of it one day, but I don't see why it HAS to be TODAY that I
understand it all, or even tomorrow; there are so many things out
there waiting to be seen and understood that if I rush out and throw
myself into all of them I might easily overload and not enjoy any of
them because I am woking so hard at it.

After all of this, I also want to say that it is nice to be able to
pick a critical analysis written by someone that doesn't have an axe
to grind; or at least tells you in advance that they are grinding an
axe instead of being reasonably objective.  It can really provide
new light on a work when you are able to find out how someone else
interpreted it, when you are really getting criticism of the work
itself instead of watching the work be used as a soapbox by the
critic to present a lecture on some favored topic of its.

Hmm, my watch says it's way past my bdetime, so I think I will just
send this semi-coherent ramble and toddle off to sleep ...

        Happy Flaming,
        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1985 13:18:50 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ray Chen (MS W420) <chen@mitre-gateway.arpa>
Subject: re:  critics

>From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
>>brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>>It is my considered (and I do mean considered) opinion (and I do
>>mean opinion) that to be great art a book must be, first of all, a
>>good read.  If something is sufficiantly inaccessible that it
>>cannot be read for fun, it fails as art because it will only speak
>>to that small segment of the population that is already prepared
>>to listen; its exploration of (if I may) the human condition is
>>wasted on those who could otherwise get the most out of it....
>
>Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it
>can't be great art?  And if you have to work to understand it,
>ditto?

Judith and others,

An old English teacher of mine once gave me a prerequisite for
classic literature.

Basically, a classic piece of literature should be able to be read
at many different levels.  It should be like an onion with many
different layers (but no bad spots).  You should be able to read it
for fun and enjoy it one time and be able to read it for something
deeper some other time and enjoy it as well.  When reading a classic
piece of literature, you should get out of it what you put into it.
There should be deep and profound ideas, conflicts, etc. in the
novel for those who are willing and able to look for them.  Yet,
there should also be something for those who only want solid
entertainment.

Shakespeare, for example, in his time was a very popular playwright,
and not because his plays were thought to be that good or profound.
(In fact, a lot of people looked down him and his work.)  He was
well liked because his plays were FUN.  There were sexual innuendos,
puns galore, and slapstick humor throughout all his plays.  They
just don't appear that obvious to us now, because we don't know
Elizabethan slang.

Homer's epic poems, too were passed down orally long before they
were ever written down.  Somehow, I doubt that generations of Greek
tribesmen memorized them because they were "Art".  They memorized
them because they appealed to people at many different levels.

I don't think that being a good read automatically makes a book a
literature.  There are a lot of books out there that are fun, but
don't have the content to be considered literature or art.

However, I do think that literature should be a good read.

        Ray Chen
        chen@mitre-gw

------------------------------

Subject: Storm-troopers armor
Date: 12 Sep 85 22:00:12 EDT (Thu)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

I kind of like the ``blasters are a recent innovation'' argument.

The Jedi knights were using light-sabres (although perhaps only for
ceremonial purposes) just a generation ago.  On the other hand,
dueling with swords lasted for a couple of centuries after the
development of hand-guns, so no real good conclusion can be drawn
from the use of light-sabres by the knights.

But storm trooper armor, pretty useless against blasters, may be
good for:

   a) toxic gases and radiation (either used as weapons, or caused
      by accident when boarding a ``nuclear powered'' space vessel.
      They might also be good against vacuum.  Which would explain
      their use in the earlier films in space battles, but is a
      fairly poor excuse for their use on planets like the moon of
      Endor, where you wouldn't expect the natives to go squirting
      nerve gas at you.  (The protection against atmosphere-borne
      disease has already been mentioned.)

      I suppose the armor might be a vacuum suit for use in boarding
      ships with ruptured hulls.  Its use on planets with an
      atmosphere might be just a hold over.

   b) most of the more primitive weapons available to subject
      races like the ewoks (although I guess in RotJ the armor
      wasn't all that good against ewok arrows).

   c) shrapnel from explosions.  Throw a hand-grenade among a
      crowd of storm troopers and you might only kill one or two,
      not the whole lot of them.  You might expect that the empire's
      biggest problems are guerrilla warfare and terrorism like you
      see in most national liberation movements today, and the armor
      might be proof against typical terrorist tactics like
      car-bombs.

Maybe it isn't armor?  Maybe the empire's troops are white insectoid
creatures?  Nope, that won't work, we see Luke and Han put on the
armor in A New Hope...

I give up.  I wonder why we never see storm-troopers in combat
fatigues.

Why does the empire use storm troopers at all?  Why not
armed-to-the-teeth droids?  Maybe droids are too expensive, and
conscripts are cheap.  Only we see lots of evidently cheap and
stupid droids for use on the Lars' farm and for other menial tasks.
Just fit a blaster on them and tell them to shoot anything that
moves.

On the other hand, if you (a rebel force) succeed in immobilizing a
droid, there's nothing to stop you from re-programming it (assuming
you can circumvent its self-destruct mechanism) to go home to the
barracks and raise havoc there among the empire's forces, or
reprogramming it to fight on your side.  Soldiers in plastic armor
are a bit harder to reprogram.  Even if the intelligence in the
droid is so complex that you can't reprogram it (without
``lobotomizing'' it and thus making it much less useful), even if
you have to destroy the droid's ``brain'', you can use the rest of
it as spare parts for your own attack droids, something that
probably isn't too easy to do with spare parts of your soldiers...

Hmm, for that matter, circumventing the attack-droid's self-destruct
might be easy because the self-destruct would have to be built in a
way that it couldn't be used against you as a weapon.  That is, an
opponent shouldn't be able to convince your entire fighting force to
self-destruct on the battle-field.  Also, unless all of your attack
droids are designed to be kamikazes, they presumably come back need
to be repaired, so they can't self-destruct whenever you open their
casing.  Fooling the droid into believing that it's being
legitimately repaired long enough to turn it off in order to change
its programming (or replace its brain) probably isn't that hard.

What if the empire has an elaborate recognition code for its repair
crews?  The code is breakable, particularly if you have code box
debris lying around the battlefield.  Also, the empire doesn't want
to make it too hard to repair the droids, or they won't be able to
repair them themselves under battlefield conditions.

[If you think my proposition that war-machines be recycled by the
other side is unrealistic, just remember that Egypt gets its spare
parts for its Soviet-built tanks from Israel, who gets them from the
battle-field.  Israel has a VERY EFFECTIVE weapon-recycling
program.]

Okay, so I guess there's a good reason to have a fighting force
composed primarily of humans instead of machines (or humans directly
controlling simple machines, such as the walkers and blasters).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Sep 85 0929-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #364
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Sep 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 364

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: critics (Long!!)
Date: 11 Sep 85 20:23:35 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>> Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it
>> can't be great art?  And if you have to work to understand it,
>> ditto?
>
>No and yes.

So a book can be 'great art' if many people can't understand it, but
can't be great art if it requires work? Consider the subclass of
books that you'd call 'great art.' By your answers to above
questions, some of those 'great books' are beyond the abilities of
many people to understand them. But these impenetrable books have to
be accessible to fit your criterion for 'great art.' How can they be
impenetrable and accessible at the same time? Is this like a Zen
koan? ;-)

>However, a work that is opaque to the average contemporary reader
>is never, in my opinion, great art.  It is fine if the reader has
>to work at it; it is flawed if the reader has insufficient reason to
>want to.

Semantics: the relationships between signs and symbols and the
concepts, feelings, etc. associated with them in the minds of their
interpreters. What you're doing here is stating a personal
definition of art (and what's more GREAT art). Stating an
idiosyncratic definition doesn't redefine a term for society at
large. Furthermore, a term like 'great art' can have an
interpretation agreed upon by a subgroup in society that differs
from the interpretation that's considered commonly accepted. Which
definition is 'correct,' and does correctness have any meaning in
this context? The answer is not as immediately obvious as you seem
to want us to believe.

Consider, for example, the loaded term 'secular humanist.' If a
group of people decide to create a new symbol like this and use it
regularly to describe reality their very use of the symbol tends to
lend it a certain credibility. Perhaps the media-concocted term
'yuppie' is a perfect example. Many people's belief in this creature
is supported by the fact that media people seem to believe it exists
(or created it to sell newspapers and magazines).

As human beings, we use symbols to partition the world and make
sense of it. But it's easy to confuse the symbol with reality:
creating a symbol like 'yuppie' doesn't automatically imply that a
creature that fits the definition of yuppie is real. And my use of
the symbol is no guarantee that everyone else uses it in the same
way. The confusion of the symbol with the symbolized is one reason
why people come to believe in a term like 'yuppie' without bothering
to question whether it describes something that really exists as a
discrete and unambiguous category of objects. We change our own
perception of reality to an extent through our creation and
manipulation of symbols: a study of an American Indian society that
recognizes a different set of primary colors than the Anglo's Roy G.
Biv found that its members were very good at recognizing fine shades
of blue-green (one of their primary colors) but not as good at
recognizing fine shades of blue or green (our primary colors). The
situation was reversed for members of Anglo-American society (note:
for anyone who's interested I think this was a study by Benjamin
Whorf; someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

The argument over 'great art' is an argument about the meaning of a
symbol. Our understanding of the word 'art' is conditioned by
cultural forces as well as personal. Made objects in other societies
may look aesthetically pleasing, and stories told in other societies
may be fun to listen to. But the fundamental relationship between
human being and made object/story may be profoundly different than
what we're used to.  A story may be given ritual embellishments that
are pleasing but are intended to please the gods rather than the
listeners, for example.  And a battle-axe may be given intricate
carvings to increase its ritual power or simply because the society
believes that's the way a battle axe SHOULD look. There ain't no
such animal as 'art' in the sense of an object or category that has
reality as a primary attribute.
'Art' describes a relationship that exists between a member of a
culture and the objects of its own creation. Anyone who's interested
in this might want to check out "The Savage Mind" by Claude
Levi-Strauss. What Steve Brust is doing here, it seems to me, is
coming up with his own personal symbol for the reader/book
relationship and asking us to accept it as superior to other symbols
for that relationship that many other members of society use. The
only reason a phrase like 'great book' exists is that one or more
persons decided to invent it to describe a class of objects. Its use
says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of that class of
objects, just as saying 'shiftless welfare moochers' does not
automatically cause an underclass to spring into existence. Mr.
Brust has one definition of 'great art' which he defines for us here
at some length. The term means something different, however, to many
of the rest of us who happen to share this culture with him. A
consensus on its meaning (if there is one) would define certain
attributes that indicate a great book. Lasting power is one that's
often mentioned, but more fundamental is perhaps the illumination of
those characteristics that define us as human beings: the meaning of
life, love, and hate in human relationships; the growth and decay of
societies and cities; and so on. It's our recognition of our own
passions, strengths and weaknesses in Shakespeare that many people
believe is responsible for his continued success as a writer over
the centuries, not that he's 'fun to read.'

>I don't "insist" on that, and I do, in fact, read authors who force
>me to work and are not enjoyable.  These people are craftsman in
>their own way.  But I do not call them artists.  What they produce
>just isn't good enough.

Now you're redefining 'craftsman' and 'quality' for the rest of us.
I think you believe a little too strongly in the power of your
personal definitions, Steve. Your refusal to call them artists has
little to do with the conventionally accepted definition of art, and
you're going to have to go a lot farther to prove to us that it's
worthwhile scrapping a definition most people agree on for your own
idiosyncrasy.

The bottom line would seem to be that you equate working for
something with drudgery and art with fun. I'm sure you've known
people who enjoy work and feel that art is drudgery. Your attitudes
may be related to the division in our society between labor and
leisure. Since you see reading and art (perhaps) as leisure time
activities, any suggestion that work might be involved in reading a
particular 'work of art' causes you to eliminate it from the
category of possible 'great books.' But the division between labor
and leisure in our society has to do with our economic system; it
doesn't mean that abstract entities called 'labor' and 'leisure'
really exist (for those who are interested in this topic, there was
a philosopher who wrote a book about this; it has 'Leisure' in its
title, and may have been written by Karl Popper. I'm sure your local
library has it). One man's labor is another's leisure; the personal
computer is a perfect example. I happen to enjoy the work I put into
reading a 'difficult' book; it's part of the 'fun' of reading it for
me.

>The points you raise are well taken.  But I continue to disagree.
>I'm glad I read Moby Dick.  There was a lot to it.  But it failed
>as art.  Huckleberry Finn did not.  There was as much going on
>underneath, but Twain didn't leave the roof off his house.  It had
>a top level--fun--that was there too.  Melville should have had an
>editor with a big blue pen.  It wasn't fun.  I don't think it will
>last.  I could (always always always) be wrong.

I know several people beside myself who ENJOY Melville and think
he's fun (two of them are old Navy men and sailing buffs). It's full
of the sea, wisdom, and a hell of a sense of humor. The scene where
Queequeg (sp?) crawls into bed with Ishmael for the first time is
amusing to me as is the initial scene where Ishmael talks about
getting the 'hypos' and hitting out for the open sea. I IDENTIFY
with Ishmael, laugh with him as I recognize a common and primordial
human experience, and as a result I have (believe it or not) FUN
when I read the book. What you're talking about is your own personal
preferences and prejudices, not about qualities people can use to
reach a consensus on to define what's 'great art' and what's not.

As to Moby Dick's 'lasting:' it was written (I think) in 1835 or
thereabouts. How many novels continue to have admirers and readers
who enjoy them after 150 years?

                                -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: lzwi!nrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (N.R.HASLOCK)
Subject: Re: critics (Long!!) What is art?
Date: 11 Sep 85 15:42:27 GMT

brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes:
>> Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it
>> can't be great art?  And if you have to work to understand it,
>> ditto?
>
> No and yes.

My contribution to this discussion is a simple ( very difficult )
question. What is art? What is the artistic content of the medium
that we(?) are discussing?

A work of literature has both structure and style. The structure is
the story being told, with all its subplots, twists, turns and final
resolution. The style is the way in which the reader is exposed to
the structure, or the the way the author hides the structure from
the reader.

Note: These are my definitions for the purposes of my comments. Feel
free to use them if they make sense to you.

>> You might argue (as many did when Joyce, Eliot, and Pound first
>> published) that it's perverse and snobbish to pour a great talent
>> into the production of work that's more or less opaque to the
>> average *contemporary* reader.
>
> There is a clear and present danger that we will soon find
> ourselves attempting to define "art."  I would enjoy the effort,
> but I enjoy futile pursuits.  However, a work that is opaque to
> the average contemporary reader is never, in my opinion, great
> art.  It is fine if the reader has to work at it; it is flawed if
> the reader has insufficant reason to want to.

>> Anyway, what about older books?
> I don't understand.  What about them?

What is opaque? Obviously it must be the style, otherwise we would
be seeing comments about books with no story. The question is, how
much story is left if we take away the style and would it be worth
reading? ( I cannot comment here, not having taken the time to read
the works in question ). Given that a lots of the 'Classics' have
been abridged and otherwise munged into child readable form while
most of the specified authors have not, I would suspect that there
is not enough story to make it worth the effort.

For me, great art should have both style and structure and the two
should complement each other. Experiments with style may be fun for
the author and interesting for the literate but without a
complementing structure, the result is unlikely to be great art.

>>>One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how long
>>>is the author remembered?
>>
>> By whom?. ....  How much of this stuff would have survived at all
>> if it hadn't been preserved and taught in the schools?
>
> We have no disagreement here.  All of the things you have
> just mentioned are things that I consider to be great art.
>
> Fun, aren't they?

But does this not give us a training in what is supposed to be great
art? Do not all of these things have a worthwhile story as well as a
unique style? Have not all of these stories been rewritten for
children on the basis of the story alone, resulting in non art.

>>>what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a
>>>hundred years failed to write stories or books that were fun to
>>>read?
>>
>> All these people wrote works that were fun to read, but they
>> didn't STAY fun to read when their languages ceased to be
>> current.
>
> Here we just disagree.  I can't think of anything else to say.

I disagree too, look at some translations where the translator has
succeeded in applying a currently acceptable style to the work.  For
example Magnus Magnusson's translations of the Icelandic sagas.

>> I suppose I'm saying that in order to have good writers, you have
>> to have good writers -- not hard writers or easy ones, just good
>> ones.  I think if you insist that a work be easy reading and fun
>> (RIGHT AWAY!), you may not be giving it a chance.
>
> I don't "insist" on that, and I do, in fact, read authors who
> force me to work and are not enjoyable.  These people are
> craftsman in their own way.  But I do not call them artists.  What
> they produce just isn't good enough.  And this distinction--what
> is and is not art--actually matters to me, for what reasons I'm
> not sure.  I am sure of opinions on what makes for great art--
> just as I am sure that these opinions will change, perhaps into
> their opposite, as I continue to read and think about what I've
> read.

No one if forced to read a book, ( after leaving school ) and
writing books that are difficult to read merely reduces the
readership. If the book is an experiment with a new style, then
there is no problem. Just remember that style can be display as
easily in a short book as in a long book. If the purpose of the book
is to familiarize the readership with the style so that the author
can later write his masterpiece in his new and difficult style, then
the book should be only long enough to do that.

Producing a long book in a difficult style that is unfamiliar to the
authors readership is pointless unless the book is also fun. It will
never be recognized as great unless someone, probably someone else,
works exceptionally hard to make that particular style popular.

>> One of the reasons I enjoy reading the newsgroups is that, just
>> as in more formal publications, people write well here. I just
>> can't believe such good writing has developed without at least
>> some study of our language and literature.  I think I know what
>> the work of people who read only "fun stuff" looks like: as an
>> editor, I'm often called on to reorganize their writing for
>> publication.  To my knowledge [!!!]  I've never seen clear,
>> fluent, interesting writing from someone whose first criterion
>> for choosing a book was that it be accessible.  If that's what
>> I'm looking at now, well, it's never too late to learn.

Surely, 'clear, fluent, interesting writing' is 'accessible' because
it is clear, fluent and interesting. Maybe I missed something?

> I'm glad I read Moby Dick.  There was a lot to it.  But it failed
> as art.  Huckleberry Finn did not.  There was as much going on
> underneath, but Twain didn't leave the roof off his house.  It had
> a top level--fun--that was there too.  Melville should have had an
> editor with a big blue pen.  It wasn't fun.  I don't think it will
> last.  I could (always always always) be wrong.

There is simply too much written material for me to be able to read
it all in the space of this lifetime. If a book is seriously flawed,
I will need a very compelling reason to read it.

Simplistic style and simplistic plotting may still contain neat
concepts that make the 90 minute invested worthwhile.

If may favorite reviewers cannot find anything good to say about a
difficult book then I will probably not bother to open the cover and
I will find something else to call art.

{ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh
        Nigel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Sep 85 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #365
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Sep 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 365

Today's Topics:

                Books - Card & St. Clair & Crowley &
                        Delany & Harrison & Niven &
                        Zelazny & First Books (4 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Bars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@topaz.rutgers.edu (showard)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game (book)
Date: 11 Sep 85 21:32:50 GMT

> Does anyone have thoughts about Orson Scott Card's new book, a
> novel length version of "Ender's Game"?  I saw it in a bookstore..
>
>       Steven

   I read the novel, not having read the short story.  It seemed
fairly obvious what additions had been made and my roommate
confirmed my suspicions.  There is a great deal of information about
Ender's early training, from his kindergarten level military academy
to the elite training school at the end.  Also, there is a totally
unnecessary subplot concerning Ender's brother and sister and a
computer news network.  If you really, really liked the short story,
pick up the novel at your nearest library.  If you've never read
either one, go for the short story.

udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Re: Alien Lowlife in Star Wars
Date: 12 Sep 85 11:46:55 GMT

>Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ?

Margaret St. Clair wrote a story in the '50s or so about a boring
race.  It, and they, were called "Prott."  They did nothing but bore
humans.  They were not humanoid (sorry, I can't think of a
boring-race/us story offhand), but looked like gigantic spacegoing
fried eggs.  The story begins with a Prott discovering a human in a
spaceship; the Prott enthusiastically begins telling the human
everything it can think of about "--ing the --."  However, the man
can't make out what the noun and verb in the telepathically
transmitted phrase mean, so the Prott explains some more... and
more... and brings equally enthusiastic friends, all of whom are
eager to clarify the human's ideas about this supremely important
activity.  And won't stop...  I feel a spoiler coming on so I'll
stop summarizing here.

Does anyone know where this story appeared, or whether it's still
available somewhere?

Judith Abrahms
{ucbvax, ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 85 13:50:29 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: Little, Big
From: Peter Alfke <Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

From Steven Brust:
>I read John Crowley's LITTLE, BIG, worked hard at it because it
>wasn't an easy book to read, and was blown away by it.  I have
>recommended it to many people.  I am very glad I read it.  It was
>beautifully crafted, and said things that I think are important to
>say, and looked into things that deserved looking into.  It was not
>a great book, however; it was too dificult to read to be a great
>book.

I am confused.  Did you really find "Little, Big" hard to read?
Crowley isn't playing with the prose stylistically, a la Joyce or
Delany; he just uses the language very expressively.  While his
writing may be harder to read than your standard modern prose
(Niven, Heinlein, Hemingway et al), I can't see it really falling
into the "definitely tough slogging" category.  Compare with any of
James Branch Cabell's writing: now THAT'S "difficult to read"
(though rewarding and surprisingly witty if you expend the effort).
I don't believe that Crowley's writing is tangled and opaque enough
so as to detract from his works' greatness, particularly considering
all the praise you heaped upon his book.

PS: A tip to you and anyone else who enjoyed "Little, Big": go read
"Winters' Tale" by Mark Helprin.  It's similar in style and tone to
"Little, Big", although the territory it inhabits is closer to the
"mainstream" (whatever that may mean).  Also highly recommended is
of course Crowley's "Engine Summer", which I have raved about pretty
recently in this forum.
                                                --Peter Alfke

------------------------------

Date: Sat 14 Sep 85 10:27:41-PDT
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #361

Regarding DHALGREN by Delany...

I think the book is total garbage. I stopped less than half-way
because I couldn't stomach 1) the boredom 2) the verbosity with no
real purpose 3) the self-indulging nature of the author.  Delaney
has never been one of my favorite authors in any genre, because I
think his 'experimental' styles and
'clever techniques' are almost useless in terms of telling
a good story and telling it well.

For many of the same reasons I didn't like Joyce's FINNEGAN'S WAKE
OR ULLYSES (sp?). These types of 'experiments' just don't appeal to
me.

Folks, if you want a really BRILLIANT novel that extends the concept
of what it means to *BE* a novel, please read Vladimir Nabokov's
LOLITA. Forget everything you've heard about it from 'old wives'
concerned about their children and all that usual clap-trap. Go into
it with an open mind, get past the first difficult 20-30 pages, and
you will have found the gem of all novels.

Since I read the book 5 years ago, nothing, REPEAT NOTHING, I have
read has come close. In fact, Nabokov and his wily ways may have
done permanent damage to my ability to enjoy novels. Sadly, none of
Nabokov's other novels even comes close to this one work, so it
really stands alone.

        Stuart

------------------------------

From: ptsfb!djl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe)
Subject: A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born
Date: 14 Sep 85 03:15:37 GMT

       _A _S_t_a_i_n_l_e_s_s _S_t_e_e_l _R_a_t _I_s _B_o_r_n
                                 by
                    _H_a_r_r_y _H_a_r_r_i_s_o_n


This book is logically the first one in the saga of James Bolivar
diGriz (a.k.a.  Slippery Jim).  It follows him from the time he
turns 17 and is legally an adult until he is 19 or 20.  James has
apparently always been a gifted crook although there are some
flashbacks to show us his not so fumbling beginnings.  This book
shows us James turning from a crook into "The Stainless Steel Rat".

The first part of the book takes place on the planet of his birth,
"Bit O'Heaven", which sounds remarkably like Secaucus New Jersey.
:-) Here James starts his life outside the law.  Bit O'Heaven is
theoretically a frontier planet, but even here life has stagnated
and nothing has changed in a thousand years.  James refuses to fit
the mold and decides that a life of crime is his only chance for
freedom.  The second part takes place on the planet Spiovente which
is run by a sort of feudal mafia.  This part I found reminiscent of
"Deathworld II".

There is very little new in this book that has not been said in the
other books in this series, or in the Deathworld series.  But if you
enjoyed them, you will enjoy this one also.  It is well written and
keeps the interest of the reader.  My only complaint is that I could
not believe the ending.  I thought it did not fit with the
characters as drawn througout the book.  (If I said anymore, I'd
need a spoiler warning.) I would like to know if anybody else found
it as disconcerting as I did.

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.rutgers.edu (John A. Mariani)
Subject: Niven in the Corner
Date: 12 Sep 85 10:37:04 GMT

scott@hou2g.UUCP (Racer X) writes:
>Seems to me this "Niven has painted himself into a corner" argument
>is a crock, at least from Niven's point of view.  Why can't he
>write a novel or some short stories occuring during, say, the first
>Man/Kzin war?  What about some new Gil Hamilton stories?  I'm sure
>these would be well received.
>
>Certainly, he's probably constrained from furthering the history
>and mythos of Known Space, but I hardly think this prevents him
>from writing about it entirely.

Here comes another uninformed opinion from me. I don't know Larry
Niven but for about 5 years he was unarguably my favourite SF author
so I do know his work (not in the encyclopaedic way many
net.sf-lovers do, as recent postings have shown -- boy, am I
jealous!) so ..  I feel Mr. Niven does NOT want to write stories
within the existing framework; he wants to do NEW stuff (as the
Integral Trees has shown).  I think the last thing he would want to
do is hack out new Gil Hamilton stories (unless, of course, he had a
good idea). And, as Scott "rumoured", Niven's had a "dry" period.

Still, as I said at the start, this is all guesswork; could be
Scott's right.  I'm sure we'd all love to read new Known Space stuff
-- even if it was all in the existing framework.

P.S. Can I add my plea for a re-posting of "Down In Flames"? Sounds
as if Niven SHOULD write it -- even if it was "set in a parallel
Known Space" -- who cares? If its a GOOD STORY that we'd enjoy, he
should write it!

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467
Post: University of Lancaster,
      Department of Computing,
      Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.

------------------------------

From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Catching up on the backlist
Date: 11 Sep 85 13:24:00 GMT

                       Slight Spoiler Warning

I give TOD a higher rating for one reason. I think Zelazny is trying
to learn how to write about more normal people. A good chunk of his
protagonists are superhuman if mortal. They also talk a like.  (read
the Avalon section of amber,The Last Defender of Camelot, This
Immortal (the duel with slings) and any of the world sculptor
stories close together) This has bothered me somewhat over the
years.

I think TOD comes in as a partially failed attempt to write about
someone who isn't hypercompetent. The problem is he picked a member
of the Courts of Chaos to do it. Having someone who grew up there be
naive is hard to credit. I think it would have worked better if Merl
had grown up on shadow Earth and was largely ignorant of his powers
over shadow.

What i would really like to know is what home life at the Courts was
like.  Calling Dara (in her normal form) "Mother" must have had it's
moments.
                Chris Kostanick
                decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris
                ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris

------------------------------

From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: recommended first sf
Date: 12 Sep 85 00:21:38 GMT

The first sf book I read was _Fall of Moondust_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
This was before I even knew what science fiction was. All I knew was
that it was a good book and did anyone know any other books by
Clarke.....

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan    ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 13 Sep 1985 11:21:28-PDT
From: emcwilliams%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
Subject: Someone's first SF

Personally, I think perhaps one should recommend just a nibble of SF
to a first time reader, i.e. a short story. There are plenty of them
in all the genres listed in previous digests. But it seems more
likely to me that giving someone twenty pages or so of a story-type
you think they might appreciate is a better approach than trying to
feed them 250 (or heavens forbid, 600 pages!!). I know I was more
willing to try squid in appetizer-size bits than I would have been
if someone had handed me an entree-size portion.

Just a thought.

Ellen McWilliams

------------------------------

From: render@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA
Subject: Re: First SF book -- an "anti-suggestio
Date: 13 Sep 85 18:55:00 GMT

If you are suggesting first-time books for a female reader, I would
recommend DOWNBELOW STATION by C.J. Cherryh.  It is an excellent
intro to the field, covering space stations, faster than light
travel, alien civilizations, the works.  Plus, it is well written,
entertaining and thoroughly enjoyable purely from a literary
standpoint.  The author has several other books out which would also
be good for first-timers, including MERCHANTER'S LUCK, PRIDE OF
CHANUR, and FORTY THOUSAND IN GEHENNA.

                           Hal Render
                           {pur-ee, ihnp4} ! uiucdcs ! render
                           render@uiuc.csnet     render@uiuc.arpa

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 13 Sep 85 15:22:15 GMT

> I would opt for a good collection of short stories by a variety of
> authors.  This is how I got my father (long time science fiction
> hater) hooked.

I have often found short stories to be much more innovative and
experimental.  One could speculate as to why this is so.  Since
there is a smaller time investment in a short story it is easier to
try things that may not work, explore ideas, and develop concepts
that are interesting for a short time but not worth large scale
exploration.  Earl Tubb who writes the Dumarest series (and seems to
write essentially the same book over and over) had some really
excellent short stories in an Ace double while his novels are at
best mediocre.  I really enjoyed the story where a modern man on a
lark tries a formula to summon a demon and it works.  Rather
humorous.  I'm not in general a big fan of short stories but some I
have read have definitely been excellent.

> Okay, question time. Of the people out there who have read both
> Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness -- how many of
> you liked the first one you read (whatever that was, unless you
> read them at the same time) better? So far every single person I
> know who has read both of them likes the first one they read
> better. I don't know why.

I like Lord of Light better and I read Creatures of Light and
Darkness first.  Or did I read Lord of Light first?  Heck, I don't
know it's been a long time.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@topaz.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Tall tales in Bars
Date: 13 Sep 85 21:52:57 GMT

> From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
> Sparked mainly by the discussion of tall tales in bars stories
> earlier this summer, I have spent some recent time reading
> Callahan's stories, Draco Tavern stories, and others.  They have
> prompted me to ask the following question (and since you all
> happen to be sitting out there listening so nicely, I thought I'd
> ask it of YOU!!-- who knows, maybe you've got an answer.)
>
> What makes us think that any other species out there would have
> any interest at all in a bar?  Granted, they seem to be fairly
> universal earth customs, but why would an alien species have a
> desire to get inebriated?  Or even to hold the sort of social
> concourse that a tavern provides?  When you stand back and look at
> these quaint earth customs (at least when I stand back and look at
> them,) they seem to be kind of weird.  But then, that's one of the
> problems with being isolated on some backwater planet in the
> boondocks of the galaxy-- since your species is the only one
> you've got to compare you to, everything looks weird-- or
> everything looks normal.  Take your pick.
>
> So any way, what do you all think?

Dear Chris, et al:

For the most part, those alien creatures seen in Star Wars bars, and
those in most stories about SW-type bars, are vaguely humanoid in
thought, form, or habit.  If they are at the bar, one presumes they
would be of the sort that like to be in bars for some reason.

The really weird ones probably don't go to bars at all, but spend
their time in strange pursuits like golf, racquetball, and other
galactic yuppie pasttimes...

arlan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Sep 85 1018-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #366
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Sep 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 366

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Asimov & First SF Book,
                  Miscellaneous - Choosing Books &
                          Matter Transmission (4 msgs) &
                          Bar Stories & Star Wars &
                          Book Price Increase

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS digest entry
Date: 12 Sep 85 16:18:00 GMT

Sorry for the belated reply, I was out of town.  Having presented
such a broad target by declaring Asimov's recent work "crud," I'll
try to defend myself.  Two works, FOUNDATION'S EDGE and ROBOTS OF
DAWN are the subject of my opinion.

My opinion of these works being "crud" rests on three basis.

1.  Character.  The original Foundation trilogy had a whole raft of
    believable, memorable characters that I could recall without
    flipping through the book -- Hari Seldon, Gaal Dornick, Salvor
    Hardin, Hober Mallow, Latham Devers, Asper the Well-Beloved and
    his shrewish wife (funny, she doesn't look shrewish :-;), Bel
    Riose, Hans Pritcher, the Mule, Arkady, and Preem Palver for
    starts.

    Likewise, Caves of Steel, had a very interesting Lije Baley, R.
    Daneel Olivaw, and the inspector ***** SPOILER ***** who as
    Lije's boss, was the culprit -- I forget his name but remember
    the character well.

    In Foundation's Edge (FE), you *might* remember Golan Treveize
    six months after you read the book (whereas I remembered many of
    the trilogy characters and haven't read that in years.)

    In Robots of Dawn (ROD), Lije Baley is still there, but the
    character seems flatter to me, being more of a device being
    pulled across the stage from event to event as he discovers the
    pieces of the puzzle necessary to solve the mystery.  I do not
    accept that this is necessary given the mystery nature of the
    plot; plenty of mysteries have decent characterization.

2.  Plot.  FT had a very satisfactory plot in terms of problems,
    solutions, climaxes, anti-climaxes, etc., that concluded neatly
    enough.

    Ditto, Caves of Steel (and The Naked Sun, its sequel, for that
    matter.)

    ***** SPOILER ******* The plot of FE, the renewed search for the
    Second Foundation, Second Foundation internal politics of
    succession, and the search for Earth (without the services of
    Lorne Green, yet), are so ho-hum, not only in comparison to FT,
    but to many other s-f works.

    ROD is a pedestrian logic puzzle, without much interesting
    happening and with a poorly conceived human-has-sex-with-robot
    angle thrown in.

3.  Finally, the WRITING.  Asimov -- and I do love the man, his
    early works along with Heinlein's and Norton's juveniles were
    what brought me into the sf field -- has become a literary 800
    lb. canary.  Nobody will edit him.  Nobobdy *has* to.  Why
    should Doubleday bother, when anything he now writes is
    guaranteed megabucks best-seller?

    His dialogue has gotten excruciating and much of the narrative
    is dull and plodding.  If you or I had turned in those
    manuscripts with our names on them, they would have been
    returned at light-speed, perhaps with a note saying "you have
    potential, but do join a workshop, okay?"

    Part of the problem is that Asimov is getting "cuter" with age.
    Following quotes are from article by Asimov in June, 1985 LOCUS.

    Commenting on reading the Trilogy in 1981 for the first time in
    30 years, "... I marvelled at the fact that though there was
    virtually no action in them, the world I had created was so real
    that when I got to the end I was furious at being left
    hanging...."

    In my opinion, the worlds created in ROD and FE are *not* as
    real.  Given poorer characterization and less captivating
    plots....

    Next, Asimov got the idea of linking all his novels.

    "Could it be that the Earthmen finally broke away, initiated a
    new spurt of colonization in the galaxy, one in which robots
    were forbidden?  Could it be that the new spurt succeeded and
    that the new colonists somehow replaced the spacers, who then
    disappeared from history?  If so, the universe of my robot
    novels would give way to the universe of my Empire novels and
    Foundation series.

    I couldn't resist the thought.  Toward the end of Foundation's
    Edge, I began to include intimations that that was what
    happened."

    Well, folks, I feel it's forced.  There's been enough on this
    net about Niven saying no more Known Space books because of the
    complications and being backed into a corner.  By trying to
    stretch the Robots to the Empire, I think Asimov had to warp
    both universes to make them "fit" -- and I liked the originals
    were better and, without wanting to launch an entire exchange of
    "How do you judge Art?" postings, I think most people would say
    they *were* better.

    By the way here is Asimov's chronology, as he published it.  The
    whole article in LOCUS is good if you haven't seen it.

    1.  The Complete Robot  (short stories)  1982
    2.  The Caves of Steel (1954)
    3.  The Naked Sun (1957)
    4.  The Robots of Dawn (1983)
    5.  Robots and Empire (1985) [not yet published, could be off
        schedule]
    6.  one more transition novel, planned.
    7.  The Currents of Space (1952)
    8.  The Stars, Like Dust... (1951)
    9.  Pebble in the Sky (1950)
   10.  Prelude to Foundation (planned)
   11.  Foundation (1951)
   12.  Foundation and Empire (1952)
   13.  Second Foundation (1953)
   14.  Foundation's Edge (1982)
   15.  Foundation and Earth (in progress)

   Kind of makes all the current trilogy and multi-ology writers
look like pikers.

So back to the original.  Crud?  Compared to the earlier work,
definitely.  Compared to decent stuff currently published by other
writers?  I think so.  Compared to the average?  Maybe not, but the
mediocre is pretty mediocre, don't you think?  Responses welcome.

from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 22 Sep 85 07:32:23 GMT

>I would opt for a good collection of short stories by a variety of
>authors...  If I had to select, though, I would get a Conklin
>collection.

I would recommend Healy & McComas "Adventures in Time and Space" aka
"The Modern Library Giant: Great Science Fiction Stories."  Which is
a little spotty but has some really good stuff.  Even more I
recommend "Science Fiction Hall of Fame Vol. I" ed. by Robert
Silverberg.  They are the two best anthologies of short stories I
know.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 85 18:54 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Separating Wheat from Chaff

        I'm afraid that I tend to head TOWARDS books with
intelligent sea mammals, although I can't say much for DAY OF THE
DOLPHIN in either book or film form.  There have been one or two
others that stank. A couple of years ago there was a story in Galaxy
called "The Girl and the Dolphin" whose plot I could pretty much
guess before I read the story: I was right, but I still kinda liked
the story in spite of it.
        However, I always thought it was too bad that John Meyers (I
think that was the last name: it's been a while) (DOLPHIN BOY,
DAUGHTERS OF THE DOLPHIN and DESTINY OF THE DOLPHINS) died before he
finished the fourth book, so that I'd know what happened after the
end of DotD.  I certainly enjoyed David Brin's books on the Uplift
saga, and hope he writes more.

                Marina Fournier <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ag>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 85 23:43:02 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Being on file

>From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
>I think that there is a misconception here.  Your species remains
>reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do not.
>Genetic code only allows somebody to make something that looks sort
>of like you, not to remake you.

  Sorry I didn't make myself clearer.  You can keep genetic code on
file and that will specify an identical twin, at best.  Or you can
also keep your mind on file.  The latter is much harder, and is
independent of the former.  Nobody yet has any idea how large the
mind is, how to read it, or how to write it into a new brain.  I
maintain that if that were possible, the newly constructed person
would be you, or would at least think that he/she were you.
(Interesting plot twists when you have multiple people who are the
same person.  See for instance Varley's _Ophiuchi_Hotline_.  For
same mind but different body, see for instace Niven's _World_Out_
Of_Time_.)
  Please note that we didn't know how to read or write or determine
the size of a genetic code 30 years ago.  Today, it's almost
commonplace.  In 30 more years, will the technology of mind
reading/writing/copying be well developed?  Would that mean that
some people alive today will never die?
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 85 21:45 MST
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file

[Keith Lynch:]
>>    Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could
>>    you ever truly die?
>>
>>  Sure.  If all the copies get wiped out.  Just as books,
>>music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost.  The
>>more copies, and in the more places, the better.  Keep one
>>in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance).

[Mark Leeper:]
> I think that there is a misconception here.  Your species remains
> reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do not.

*If* just the genetic code is on file.  If all the information about
your identity was put on file, you *could* come back.  In fact,
there could be more than one of you.  This is assuming a materialist
point of view--if there's a soul which flies away at death then the
copy isn't the same.

Jim Lippard (Lippard at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 85 16:46:19 edt
From: kane@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (Mark K. Culotta)
Subject: Transporters

Some thoughts inspired by the messages on transporters:

In ancient Egypt, it was believed that one did not truly die until
all occurences of his name were erased or otherwise destroyed, which
is why there are all those huge funerary monuments and buildings.  (
I guess that instead of tombstomes in the future one would use a
high-density disk drive to mark his/her grave :-)

                                Mark Culotta
                                (kane@borax.mit.edu)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Sep 85 01:27:39 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Matter transmission and duplication
To: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU

>From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
>i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't
>care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm
>dead.  you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face, but
>*i*'ll still be dead.
>
>you can walk into a disintegrator beam and have a copy of you made
>on another planet if you want, but i'm fond of this particular copy
>of myself.

  I have heard this attitude before, but I didn't expect to find it
amongst computer people, who are supposed to know that all that is
important is information.
  A duplicate isn't satisfactory?  Don't you know that the average
atom in the body only stays there a few weeks?  Only a small
percentage of the you of a year ago still exists.
  I would bet that if you were duplicated, that you (the duplicate)
wouldn't notice the difference.
  Still waiting for a personal backup service...
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

Subject: Bar stories
Date: 14 Sep 85 16:16:59 PDT (Sat)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        A recent note on the bboard brought something to mind.  In
the old Venus Equilateral stories, by George O. Smith, large
sections of some of the stories took place at "Joe's" ( billed as
the best bar in 124,000,000 miles ).  The engineers would solve
problems, get ideas, etc. there.  Joe was continually miffed, cuz
the guys kept stealing his table clothes so they could run them
through the blueprint machines.
        I remember a scene where the engineers had to figure out the
flight path of some object.  "OK, look, this ketsup stain is Venus,
that coffee stain over there is the Sun, and the cigarette burn here
is Earth..."

------------------------------

From: wjvax!ron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Christian)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blasters)
Date: 14 Sep 85 00:26:18 GMT

>On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons?

Oh, could be either.  I remember the 'ammo clip' you describe on one
blaster.  Either way, the blaster bolts are traveling *way* too
slow.  One could almost step out of their way!

> Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with
> his hand in TESB?  What kind of armor is he wearing?  Also notice
> that it didn't stop a light saber!

I think that was artistic license: Showing you that ole Darth could
deflect blaster bolts by the power of the force.  Don't need no
light saber anymore.

As to why it didn't stop a light saber, well, I always thought that
a duel between Jedi's would take place on many levels sort of in
parallel.  So Luke not only had to physically direct his blow, but
also had to mentally defeat Darth's mental deflection of it.  Or
something.  If some ordinary Joe took a lightsaber to Darth, I don't
think the blows would be effective.

Ron Christian  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
{pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!ron

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off!
Date: 15 Sep 85 05:43:12 GMT

Am I the only one who has noticed the recent 18.6% price increase in
many (most) of the paperback SF books in the stores?  Seems the
publishers just all of a sudden got (independently, of course) the
idea it was time to raise the price from $2.95 to $3.50

I can't imagine any reason for that but greed. (flames explaining
how all their costs have edged upward for years will be routed to
the bit bucket.) As a collector this bugs me and I feel like
sticking my head out the window and shouting the well known litany
(from Network).

But that would only rile the neighbors, who would call the cops and
I'm sure the cops wouldn't give a damn.

So, a better strategy is to point out the increase to the sales
clerks, suggesting they tell the boss that you have noticed it and
will not pay it.  Better yet tell the boss herself.

Yes, they will look at you as one of the following:
a nut.
something that just crawled out of a crack in the floor.
a comedian.
etc.
But it shouldn't matter.  As long as there are books available at
$2.95 we have a chance of nipping this one in the bud.  Not much of
a chance, but a chance.  The new SSR book is $2.95. There are a lot
I wont read for $3.50. Tough.

Time for Stainless Steel readers.
Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Sep 85 1207-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #367
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 367

Today's Topics:

             Books - Delany & Brian Herbert & Hubbard &
                     McKinley & Morris & Niven (2 msgs) &
                     Tolkien & First SF Book,
             Miscellaneous - Star Wars (2 msgs) &
                     Matter Transmission (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cstvax!br@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brian Ritchie)
Subject: WHY read Dhalgren?
Date: 18 Sep 85 15:27:04 GMT

wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes:
>I didn't see anywhere where you were saying Dhalgren is twaddle for
>reasons A., B., and C., so your claim of 'valid reasons' seemed
>unsupported to me. The 'Defenders of Art' and 'Art snobs' at least
>offer reasons WHY they think Dhalgren is worth reading.

and jayembee said (ages ago):
>>>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply
>>>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing
>>>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see
>>>>why it's an exemplary work." ...

In all of the discussion of DHALGREN that I have seen (and that I
remember - which may be the bigger fact filter :-), people have said
things like "I got a lot out of Dhalgren", but I don't recall anyone
saying WHAT they got out of it.  Now for all I know, that *could*
just mean that they get off on spotting obscure mythological
references whose prescence depends less upon the `meaning' of a work
than on making it look good (and boosting the egos of folk who get
off on spotting them...).  PLEASE NOTE that this is highly
hypothetical and I'm not really that cynical; the point I'm trying
to make is that I haven't seen any more concrete support of Dhalgren
than "there's a lot in it".

    So far, I think the `No's have presented a better case, and have
generally explained *why* they didn't enjoy Dhalgren (I can't back
this up with examples; it's only an impression... if you want to see
my idea of a `locally-justified' viewpoint, re-read Harlan's
review).

    So how about someone giving a bit more info on what Dhalgren has
that makes reading it worth the effort?  Where lies the (disputed)
beauty? What points does it make?  Is it just its style that makes
it enjoyable, or is it trying to *say* something besides just
sitting pretty? And so on.  You may glean from this that I have
never read Dhalgren, and you would be correct.  Mayhaps I'm asking
too much, being too lazy to read the book and try and find out for
myself, but so many other people seem not to have succeeded that I
wouldn't mind a few hints to help me first.  If I did read it
`blind' and got nowhere, I'd never be certain whether it was lack of
effort on my part or the book's.

Brian.

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET
Date: 16 Sep 85 16:02:10 GMT

Have just started reading a rather odd book by BRIAN Herbert, Frank
Herbert's son. It is called SIDNEY'S COMET, and is a tale of how
Earth's garbage and waste, which had been sent into deep space for
disposal, was collected and sent back as a comet by the organisms
that resented being on the receiving end of this disposal process. A
rather strange future society is created for the story environment.
Doom and disaster are imminent...

Having recently read DOON, the National Lampoon parody of DUNE, I am
struck by the sense that this book seems to also be a parody of
Frank Herbert's style... Maybe it is not intentional, but it comes
across that way.  It could be that the son is trying to emulate his
father's writing style, but, being new at it, the result seems more
like a parody than a tribute.

I don't recall seeing any mention of this book on SF-L when it came
out (Berkley edition published June 1983). It is intended to be
humorous (at least according to the jacket blurbs), but so far (30+
pages), it isn't very funny. Will see if it improves.

Any Herbert or Dune collector will have to have a copy of this for
completion's sake, of course...

By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over --
parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other SF
writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child who
writes SF professionally?

[For that matter, I don't recall hearing much about the children of
*any* SF pros. Do Clarke, Heinlein, Zelazny, or most others of the
SF "big-names" have any children? (Individually, not all together!
:-) If they do, I never heard of them... Most male writers seem to
give an impression of bachelorhood, or never mention families,
except for wives, in the little autobiographical blurbs or story
introductions they write now and then. I don't recall a female SF
author discussing family, either.

I suppose, though, if such offspring were not writers themselves,
but just "ordinary people" -- dentists, accountants, whatever --
there would be no reason for us to have ever heard of them. There is
an incentive for children of famous parents to get into other
fields, so they won't be shadowed by their parent's reputation, so
maybe that makes it unlikely for a writer's offspring to also become
writers, I suppose.  (Or maybe they really *know* how little it
pays, or how frustrating it can be, which steers them away from the
field! :-)

The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF is Fritz
Lieber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not a writer...]

Regards, Will
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin

------------------------------

From: hpda!on@topaz.rutgers.edu (Owen Rowley)
Subject: L Ron Hubbard's Roots
Date: 13 Sep 85 20:10:28 GMT

It is not common Knowledge .......BUT

L.Ron Hubbard was involved in the O.T.O.
during the 1940's...

So what is the OTO you ask...  the OTO is the Ordo Templi Orientis,
a Magickal Fraternity that claims to be related to a hermetic
lineage that stretches back into history at least as far as the
Knights Templar and further.  In the Early part of this century the
OTO was put under the leadership of Aleister Crowley who
re-organised it and put it on a course of Magickal discovery that
continues to the present moment.  L.R.H. was a student and disciple
of Jack Parsons who was an American scientist in Southern
California, and had formed a Lodge of the OTO Parsons performed Many
of the Rituals of the order with LRH as assistant and details of
their activities are available,though only to current members of the
OTO...(Order activities are generally kept secret from non-members)
Parsons was killed in an accidehtal explosion (I beleive he worked
at the Jet propulsion Labs, it was Gov work in any case) and L R H
faded from the Order..  Those who follow the teachings of the OTO
and Aleister Crowley know that Hubbard has based his theories and
practises on the foundation of the training he received with
Parsons, though it is apparent that his tendency towards science
fiction does not end with his Prose.  I may be wrong but I think
that most present day order members consider LRH a traitor ...
Parsons Ex wife and others who participated in OTO activities with
LRH are still very much alive and very active but maintain a low
profile I don't beleive I have ever seen anything from them
concerning LRH or his order activities. (nothing public anyway)

Through out history there have been writers who attatch themselves
to Occult organisations on the periphery and then run away with bits
and snatches of the "Mysteries" only to patch them together in
fiction written to thrill the masses. I guess some would call it
research....  I call it a pity...

Owen Rowley
{ucbvax|hplabs}!hpda!on

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Sep 85 22:00:55-PDT
From: Bart <SEARS%hplabs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Beauty by Robin McKinley

Those of you who liked _The_Blue_Sword_ by Robin McKinley will be
happy to hear that they have just released _Beauty_ in paperback.
This is a full length version of the _Beauty_and_the_Beast_ tale.  I
would recommend either of these books for anyone who likes well
written fantasy with a strong female protagonist.

                      Bart
                      Sears%Hp-labs@csnet-relay.arpa
                      hplabs!sears

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!swb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Brim)
Subject: what is The Stump really?
Date: 15 Sep 85 14:44:28 GMT

In "Dream Dancer" by Janet Morris, the first space platform built
above the Earth (about a thousand years before the events in the
book) is called "The Stump."  The origin of the name is "lost in
antiquity".  This smacks of an idea that has a basis in reality.  Is
this a nickname for the current space station project?  Did it
perhaps come from another book?

Scott Brim

------------------------------

From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance
Date: 14 Sep 85 14:50:04 GMT

Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes:
> Now all this makes for interesting reading, and it's bound to be
> good for our racial self-image, and it may well be (as I would
> like to believe in my more rational moments) that EVERY sentient
> species is distinctive enough to warrant having novels written
> about it, but just once (deep breath,) I'd like to see a story
> written where man gets his come-uppance-- where an alien race
> finds us and is bored because we're just like everybody else.  How
> would THAT affect our collective psyches, I ask you??!!??
>
> Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ?

Not exactly one, but I remember reading one of Niven's ``bar''
stories wherein a chirpsithra reminisces about having come to Earth
millions of years ago to find that the intelligent life was
poisoning itself with its output of those deadly chemicals, oxygen
and free water.  At the end, the bartender is left wondring what the
chirpsithra will think of whatever race replaces the humans...

I don't remember the story's title or where I read it (or a lot of
other things, as I'm sure the Niven fans out there will have noticed
by now).

Brandon S Allbery,
6504 Chestnut, Independence, OH 44131  +01 216 524 1416
74106,1032 CIS   BALLBERY MCIMAIL  TELEX 6501617070
ncoast!bsa@Case.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 85 11:36:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA

> The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new universe of the
> State is *A World Out of Time* -- which I also found very
> enjoyable.  As a vision of what might happen on Earth over the
> next few *millions* of years, it was fascinating!

"The OTHER novel"???  Please somebody tell me, what is the FIRST?
_A_World_Out_of_Time_ came out a while back, and I presumed it to be
a Known Space work (the first part is taken from an earlier short
story...).  The long time factor involved could alleviate any and
all problems with Known Space continuity.  The above message seems
to imply that there is at lease one other novel in the State series,
could someone supply the title for me....I would be interested in
reading it.
                   -Richard Hartman
                   max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 16 Sep 1985 13:22:55-PDT
From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
Subject: Tolkien background information

There has been some discussion about J.R.R.Tolkien's background and
the origin of his naming scheme in the Lord of the Rings.  I would
like to point interested readers to a book called The Inklings, by
Humphrey Carpenter.  The title of the book is taken from a club at
Oxford University in England, which Tolkien, C.S.Lewis, and Charles
Williams formed to share their work by reading to each other.  They
often had other guests and writers, and were able to discuss their
writing as it developed.  I think anyone who has read anything by
one of these authors would find the book interesting.  Carpenter
tells the stories of these three authors with a special sensitivity
to their different styles and helps explain what made each of these
men write so differently.  My copy is published by Houghton Mifflin,
1979.  It's good biographical data as well as interesting reading.

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 16 Sep 85 05:05:16 GMT

I'd feel sort of an obligation to try to break the
spaceship/time-travel stereotype. To that end, how about John
Varley's THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION.  This is one of his best works
-- perhaps the finest and most moving novella ever written. What's
more, it is the title piece in a really first-class collection of SF
novelettes and story stories.  All the stories are very accessible
to casual readers; you don't have to have a background in SF cliches
or history.

Michael C. Berch
mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
{akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Empire Troops
Date: 16 Sep 85 02:20:58 GMT

michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes:
> Remember the scene in *Star Wars* where the troops are conducting
> a house-to-house search of the city, and the robots see them
> coming and lock the door?  When the troops get to the door, they
> knock, then one says, ``This one's locked, go on to the next.''
> It seems a bit odd for a totalitarian state to be stopped by a
> locked door....

I always thought that such doors were only supposed to be openable
from the outside; if it's locked, no one can be hiding inside.
(Except for an R2 droid with a hacker's dream for a limb!)  Granted,
there's nothing to support this in movie or film.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Blaster aim in STAR WARS
Date: 16 Sep 85 02:40:47 GMT

There have be numerous comments on lousy blaster aim in the STAR
WARS movies.  Though it's not mentioned anywhere, there seems to be
a pattern - blasters are affected by the Force.

First, note that non-living targets are dog meat for blasters.
Examples: the sand crawler and the cell block cameras in STAR WARS
[a.k.a. A NEW HOPE], the Rebel's power station in TESB.  Second,
note that, with one exception, *nobody* can squeeze off a single
shot and hit a person.

Third, consider the exception: when Obi-Wan Kenobi dies in the first
movie.  (Dear oh dear, I hope I haven't spoiled the movie for
anyone.-) In four shots, Luke takes out the controls to the door and
three stormtroopers.  I submit that in his rage, he's unconsciously
using the Force to guide his aim.

Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi
knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it.  Far
more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his
(her?)  sword.

(Boy, does all this seem silly.)

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 21:12 EDT
From: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU
To: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication

look at it this way: you make two copies of yourself.  which is you?
both?  how is your consciousness going to be in both?  that seems to
make it obvious to me that it would be in neither.  information is
only good for making copies.  for the external observer, the copy
might be identical, if we assume that everything that makes me is
physical.  and, in fact, the copy will serve just as well.  but
internally, my consiousness will be blown away.  the continuity that
make me will be blasted.

information is only the end all be all for the person using the
information, not for the information itself.

as i say, feel free to be transmitted to mars, but you ain't getting
me up in one of them things.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 21:17 EDT
From: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU
To: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication

yes, the duplicate might not notice the difference.  it's the
original i'm worried about.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Sep 85 1243-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #368
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 368

Today's Topics:

                Books - Kilian & MacAvoy & Tolkien &
                        First SF Books & Typos,
                Music - Children of the Sun (2 msgs) &
                        After the Gold Rush (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Time Travel &
                        Bar Stories & Matter Transmission (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:15:51 GMT

               THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian
                           Del Rey, 1978
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Jerry Pierce, crack agent for the Intertemporal Agency, goes
back in time to find out why an enormous disaster stuck Earth in the
future.  He meets an African Bushman named Anita !Kosi (who has some
not very secret powers).  They mention all sort of paradoxes without
resolving or explaining any of them.  Like, if someone gives William
Blake a copy of his collected works published in 1980 before he's
written most of them, does he actually bother to write them?  If he
doesn't, do they vanish?  Kilian farbles around this by having these
be either alternate worlds or our world, only earlier in time,
depending on which suits his need.  Disappointing.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE BOOK OF KELLS by R. A. MacAvoy
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:14:13 GMT

                 THE BOOK OF KELLS by R. A. MacAvoy
                            Bantam, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     John Thornburn, through Celtic music and artwork, opens a
portal back to Tenth Century Ireland.  A young woman of that time,
Ailesh, comes through, fleeing from Viking raiders.  John and she
return, along with Derval O'Keane, a friend of John's who just
happens to be studying Celtic history, literature, language, etc.
What you start out with is an old standby of a science fiction
premise (time travel); what you end up with is basically an
historical adventure novel.  After MacAvoy's first four novels, I
was really looking forward to this one.  Though it's competent, it
doesn't have the magic touch that her earlier works did.  I can't
say that I strongly recommend it.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 85 00:57:10 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Inklings and Tolkien.

       "Tolkien's friends amoung his Oxford colleagues centered
       about C. S. Lewis and made up a circle, which included W. H.
       Lewis (his brother); the writer Charles Williams, whose
       several fine novels on occult and mystical subjects are (I
       feel, unfortunately) better known to American readers than
       his two fascinating volumes of Arthurian verse; and number of
       other congenial souls, including John Wain, Roy Campbell, and
       David Cecil.  They made up an informal group calling
       themselves the Inklings, and gathered in C. S. Lewis' rooms
       at Magdalen College ever Thursday evening after dinner."

       -- first paragraph chapter two of
        "Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings" by Lin Carter

No, no.  I am not going to type the whole book in.  (It would among
other things be violating the copyright laws and tempting the fates
with a massive display of hubris about my bad typing.)

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: dspo!fu@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Good First SF stories
Date: 16 Sep 85 21:24:20 GMT

I had an English teacher who felt that no great English literature
had been written since the time of Milton.  She didn't mean that
nothing worth reading had been written, just nothing exceptionally
good.  Her opinion of science fiction was extremely low.  I asked
her to read "Mortal Gods" which was a 3 page short story by Orson
Scott Card, and her reaction was quite favorable.  I think that for
those who have poor opinions of the quality of SF, Card is a very
good writer.
                -Castor Fu
                ihnp4!lanl!dspo!fu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 17 Sep 85 00:55:04-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: A real lulu of a typo...

     Has anyone noticed the a certain new publication from Bluejay
books? It is one of those expensive 'trade' paperbacks, with wide
margins, large type, and profuse (poor) illustrations.

     I have not named the author and title as these are
indeterminate.  The front cover claims it to be "Rogue Queen" by "L.
Spraque de Camp".  The edge of the binding, on the other hand,
declares it to be "Rouge Queen" by the same mysterious and hitherto
unknown author. Opening it, you find that while the title 'Rogue
Queen' seems to be intended, the book was allegedly written by our
old friend L. Sprague deCamp.

     We are all aware that the standards of spelling and
proofreading have declined dramatically over the last decade or so,
but this is the most blatant example I have yet seen. When I saw
this in the bookstore edge-on, I seriously thought for a moment that
Rouge Queen was the title!  If I were Mr. DeCamp, I would be VERY
upset with Bluejay.

    Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless?  This is
definitely the worst I have ever seen.
                                        Peter
                                        oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 20:42 EDT
From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Children of the Sun

No, I think the original poster was referring to "Children of the
Sun" (from the album of the same name) by Billy Thorpe.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 16 Sep 85 21:52:12-PDT
From: Jeff Soesbe <Y.YEFF@[36.48.0.2]>
Subject: "Children of the Sun"

actually, there IS a song called "Children of the Sun", and it's by
BIlly Thorpe...it appeared on some album of his about 5-6 years ago,
but I don't remember the title, or the lyrics...will try to dredge
up this info..

is anyone else reminded of "Childhood's End" when they hear "After
the Gold Rush"??? oh well...

jeff

------------------------------

From: ukc!jmh@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Hague)
Subject: Re: SF Music -- After The Gold Rush
Date: 16 Sep 85 17:29:01 GMT

jam@dcl-cs.UUCP (John A. Mariani) writes:
>maxwell%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes:
>>Back in V 10 #277 (July), druxo!knf@topaz.arpa mentions a song
>>"Children of the Sun", which I believe is actually a reference to
>>the song "After the Gold Rush", on an album by a group called (I
>>think) Gold Rush.
>
> Let me join the throngs with a point of information. This album is
> by Neil Young .. he of CSN&Y.

If memory serves, the group who had a hitette with this is in the UK
were called 'Prelude'. Good tune, innit ?

Jim Hague
UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!jmh          Tel: +44 227 66822 x7697
TG:   72:MAG10135                    +44 227 454993

------------------------------

From: gypsy!emery@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF Music
Date: 16 Sep 85 14:14:00 GMT

It just happens that a song with the same name, music and lyrics is
the title track of Neil Young's "After the Gold Rush". (Neil wrote
it...)

However, I much prefer the a cappella version.  I remember when it
came out, it almost became a hit.

                                Dave Emery
                                Siemens Research
                    ..princeton!siemens!emery

------------------------------

From: iitcs!draughn@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark Draughn)
Subject: Re: Blaster aim in STAR WARS
Date: 16 Sep 85 06:15:16 GMT

psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes:
>There have be numerous comments on lousy blaster aim in the STAR
>WARS movies.  Though it's not mentioned anywhere, there seems to be
>a pattern - blasters are affected by the Force.

I'll buy this.  It even seems to extend to the guns on the fighters.
Luke's fighter consistently takes hit after hit without major damage
(i.e. it still flies and still has life support) nearly all other
fighters blow up when hit.

>First, note that non-living targets are dog meat for blasters.
>Examples: the sand crawler and the cell block cameras in STAR WARS
>[a.k.a. A NEW HOPE], the Rebel's power station in TESB.  Second,
>note that, with one exception, *nobody* can squeeze off a single
>shot and hit a person.

This is nothing new.  Police reports of gun battles show that most
bullets miss their intended targets.  There are two basic reasons
for this.

First, stress interferes with performance and even someone with
years of training can't hit a damned thing.

Second, self preservation.  If there are thirty-five cops around, no
single cop is likely to risk getting shot by exposing himself long
enough to get in a careful shot.  (This is worse in wars, where
soldiers often stay in fox holes, firing blindly by holding the
rifle above their heads.  The bullets-per-kill ratios can run into
the thousands.)  The same effect probably occurs with blasters.
(Although, the stormtroopers seem to just stand and fire, and they
get mowed down accordingly.)

>Third, consider the exception: when Obi-Wan Kenobi dies in the
>first movie.  (Dear oh dear, I hope I haven't spoiled the movie for
>anyone.-) In four shots, Luke takes out the controls to the door
>and three stormtroopers.  I submit that in his rage, he's
>unconsciously using the Force to guide his aim.

Could be.  Also, luke knows that his shots will make a big
difference in his escape.  He therefore takes the time to shoot
properly.  The stormtroopers are, of course, still shooting wildly.

>Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi
>knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it.  Far
>more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his
>(her?)  sword.

Note that not only is Vader protected from Han's blaster fire, but
his glove isn't singed either.  This implies that a Jedi can extend
the Force easily into objects that he is touching.  This explains
the Jedi's preference for light sabers.  Blaster fire is easily
deflected, even if fired by a Jedi, it cannot be controlled reliably
when aimed at another Jedi.  But a Light Saber is an intimate,
personal weapon.  A Jedi carries it always and becomes one with it.
It is one thing to deflect an opponent's oncoming blaster bolts.  It
is quite another to deflect a Light Saber infused with your
opponent's Force.  Except with one's own Light Saber.

                                             Mark T. Draughn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 10:00:40 edt
From: John McLean <mclean@nrl-css.arpa>
Subject: November 5
Cc: decvax\!hplabs\!oliveb\!oliven\!martin@nrl-css.arpa

   Martin Hall asked about the importance of November 5th in time
travel literature.  A likely possibility for English writers since
November 5th is Guy Fawkes' Day.  It would be interesting to wonder
what would have happened if Fawkes had succeeded in blowing up the
House of Parliament.
                                                              John

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Sep 85 12:34:41 EDT
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington>
Subject: Bar Stories

Chris Miler asks: "Why do we think any other species would be
interested in a bar?"

    The immediate response from my (sometimes malfunctioning)
synapses is: Given most sorts of advanced society structure folks
(species, if you wish) will have *some form* of informal social
gathering spot where they can discuss (and complain about) their day
(or second, or year, depending on lifespan and/or how long since
they've had the chance to perform this 'ritual').

    Writing primarily from the human viewpoint and quite often using
human-dominated situations, the 'bar' environment is a natural.  A
social club, church or family/clan gathering are others, and I
suppose they have each been used.

    Ron Singleton

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Alan)
Subject: Is it live or is it Memorex?
Date: 16 Sep 85 10:53:27 GMT

> From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
> i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't
> care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm
> dead.  you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face,
> but *i*'ll still be dead.

But for all you know, every time you go to sleep, someone could be
killing you and then replacing you with a copy of you, and you'd
*never* notice the difference!  So what difference does it make?
None at all!
                 Doug Alan
                  nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

------------------------------

From: sdcsvax!davidson@topaz.rutgers.edu (Greg Davidson)
Subject: Re: matter transmission and duplication
Date: 13 Sep 85 09:25:13 GMT

People who won't accept a perfect duplicate of themselves as a
substitute for their continuity in their original body may be
idealizing the continuity of their body and personality over time,
both of which are only approximate.  They may also have some
unexamined mystical concepts of self.  Let's do a thought experiment
and find out.

How do you know that your personality DOESN'T die every night, and
get recreated imperfectly from backups in the morning?  Imagine this
were really the case; say it had just been discovered, and you read
it this morning in Science magazine.  Would it matter?  Would you
avoid going to sleep, since it WAS death to do so? I can't see as
how it would make ANY difference, so why should I object to a
perfect copy replacing me?  As long as the change over were done
gracefully.

Greg Davidson           Virtual Infinity Systems, San Diego

------------------------------

From: ukc!msp@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.S.Parsons)
Subject: Re: Transporters (Really: life after death)
Date: 16 Sep 85 15:08:36 GMT

>From: kane@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (Mark K. Culotta)
>In ancient Egypt, it was believed that one did not truly die until
>all occurences of his name were erased or otherwise destroyed ...

A thought - Maybe you don't really die until all the people who knew
you also die? You live on in memories..... (A person's internal
model of you is still active; If you were close, the internal model
will be quite detailed, he/she would have understood something of
how your mind worked.)

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:12:28 GMT

> From: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU
> look at it this way: you make two copies of yourself.  which is
> you?  both?  how is your consciousness going to be in both?  that
> seems to make it obvious to me that it would be in neither.
> information is only good for making copies.  for the external
> observer, the copy might be identical, if we assume that
> everything that makes me is physical.  and, in fact, the copy will
> serve just as well.  but internally, my consiousness will be blown
> away.  the continuity that make me will be blasted.

On the other hand, each of the copies will have the precise
sensation of continuity whose loss you fear.  As far as they are
concerned nothing happened.  Which brings us to the question, what
exactly do you mean by "the continuity that makes me"?  To the
outside observer it's just not obvious that that has any meaning.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Sep 85 1325-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #369
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 369

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Critics (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Art and good reads
Date: 12 Sep 85 20:16:49 EDT (Thu)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

Hmm, wading through the last couple of week's worth of SF-Lovers, I
come across Steve Brust claiming that, to be a great book, something
must also be a good read.

I guess I'd have to agree with this, in a perverse sort of way.

An analogy which comes to mind is Rubik's Cube versus Tic-tac-toe: a
very hard, but ultimately very satisfying, puzzle vs. a trivial and
boring game.  Which would you rather spend your time with?  I think
the Cube is satisfying and fun precisely because it is hard, and
Tic-tac-toe is boring precisely because it is trivial.

Ulysses is a GREAT read!  There's a giggle on just about every page
of Ulysses.  Every chapter is written in a Brand New Way Of Writing
(one chapter even goes so far as to recapitulate the history of
English literature: from Beowulf through Cicero to Chaucer to
Joyce's contemporaries, when I figured out what he was up to in that
chapter I laughed out loud).

Dhalgren was a great read, too.  Like eating a robust, healthy meal.
Now a book I found REALLY HARD (and ultimately failed) to get
through was the one of EE ``Doc'' Smith's Lensman books.  Like
eating soggy Captain Crunch.  After a while you get nauseous.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 13 Sep 85 13:13:34-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #358

nMore counterexamples to the idea that SF is stylistically flat:
almost all the works of Cordwainer Smith, especially _Norstrilia_.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 85 18:34 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: The Literature of Ideas
To: baylor!peter@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter da Silva)

>[responding to Charley Wingate, Peter da Silva writes:] Item:
>Leguin and the other authors you mentioned with her are outside the
>domain of SF. So, I think, are the other authors you mentioned. One
>must distinguish between SF and literature with an SF background.
>Stephen King writes plenty of the latter, but I don't believe he
>has provided one new theme.

You don't think Le Guin writes SF?  Or Fred Pohl (one of the "other
authors" Charley Wingate mentioned)?  You must have a very narrow
view of what "SF" means, and I don't think this perception is shared
by most readers of "SF."  I also don't understand your distinction
between "SF" and "literature with an SF background."  Citing Stephen
King is little help as (1) I've never read anything by him, and (2)
I was under the impression that he mostly wrote "horror" stuff.

To me, "SF" means what we point to and say "that's SF."  (Does
anyone out there know who came up with that definition?  I'm sure I
read it somewhere...)  It's not a very satisfactory definition, but
anything excludes works that are "clearly" SF and/or includes works
that equally "clearly" aren't.  Anyway, certainly LeGuin's _The
Lathe of Heaven_ and Pohl's _Gateway_ are SF.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Art
Date: 12 Sep 85 15:33:18 GMT

Do I want to get into the Art discussion?  Oh, what the heck...

One of the most succinct definitions of Art I have ever heard was
the title of a book (sorry, I don't know the author): "Art is
forgetting the name of what you are looking at".

(Mumbles from the audience: what the hell does that MEAN?)

Art is something that opens your eyes (and ears and mind) so that
you experience something new.  Taking a simple example from the
visual arts, think of a drawing of, say, a tree.  There are drawings
on which you might comment, "Oh yeah, nice tree."  Then there are
the drawings that make you look and SEE; instead of just thinking
"tree" and that's the end of it, you see what is actually in the
picture: things like bark texture, the effect of wind, the effect of
sunlight, and on and on.  The situation is even clearer if we talk
of photographs.  A million people have taken pictures of that
gnarled tree on the rocky butte in Yosemite...but when Ansel Adams
takes the same picture, we SEE it without our brains kicking in the
handy cut-off valve.

The art in writing works the same way.  It gives us something that
is not shrugged off by our mental reflexes.  It makes us see
something with a BEGINNER'S EYE.  And to do this, the writer/artist
must also have the Beginner's Eye.  This is why repackaged hash
doesn't appeal to anyone.  This is why certain books (which may not
be that good in any broadly accepted sense) can open our eyes if
they hit us at the right time (when they give us something we
haven't seen before, that old "sense of wonder").

This gives us both a subjective and relatively objective way to
evaluate what literature does for us.  From any individual's point
of view, the books (and Art) he or she can appreciate are those that
induce a beginner's eye view, so that we see and experience things
in a fresh way instead of shuffling along with reflexive reactions.
There's no way to predict which books are going to work this way for
a person -- what a particular book manages to give you depends on
who you are, current events in your life, what you have read before,
and so on.  People who have never read Tolkien before can get
excited about pale Tolkien clones that would bore someone who has
read the real thing.

That's the subjective part.  On the objective side, there are
authors and books that can provide new and valuable experiences for
practically anyone.  It doesn't matter what you've read before, it
doesn't matter what is currently influencing your life, it doesn't
matter what you have or haven't experienced.  Such authors and
books are _alive_ and _awake_, and anyone coming to them with an
open mind can have his or her eyes opened.  They may not be easy to
read: the material could be too intense; the prose may be complex;
the structure of the work may be unorthodox.  A good read does not
mean an easy read, any more than a good physical work-out means an
easy one.  But after reading and after working out, we can sometimes
feel that we have broken out of the mundane and got hold of
something more real and solid than everyday blase life.

for everyone because they are intrinsically unique.  There is no
guarantee that someone will like one of the intrinsically fresh
books...which is nothing to sneer at, because people are not
obligated to subject themselves to experience things they don't
want.  At the same time, it's understandable for you to be
exasperated when others don't appreciate books that really opened
your own eyes.

All this means is that I think there is a way to talk about what Art
should be and can be, that Art is more an experience than a thing,
and that the experience can be obtained in unpredictable places,
even though there are some works that have more universal potential.

(Have I straddled every fence yet?)
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: critics (Long!!) What is art?
Date: 12 Sep 85 14:09:01 GMT

> For me, great art should have both style and structure and the two
> should complement each other. Experiments with style may be fun
> for the author and interesting for the literate but without a
> complementing structure, the result is unlikely to be great art.

This is, I think, the essence.  Given a story to tell, or a theme to
explore, a writer may choose from an infinite number of structures
that will handle it.  Only one, in any given case, is the best.
While form and content (terms I'm more comfortable with) may be
discussed separately, content determines form.  It is the
interaction (and, frequently, the conflict) between them that allows
knowledge to develop.

And as for what is art, try this for part of the definition: the
process of exposing the underlying contradictions that are hidden in
mundane life through crafting a work that is esthetically (sp?)
pleasing.
                        -- SKZB

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Art and Entertainment
Date: 16 Sep 85 02:14:13 GMT

> From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (MARY MAROTTA)
> Artistic license doesn't mean that the artist can do any anything
> she wants.  The author of a novel must convey some emotions and/or
> ideas to the reader.  Sometimes these are revealed through a plot
> structure that depends on chronological occurrences.  Since this
> is a controlled, familiar environment, this device is effective
> for the general reader.  But a novel can be based on impressions,
> sensations, and philosophical beliefs.  Take William Faulkner, or
> Samuel Delaney. . . .

(Please.-) (smiley face with wink)

> No clear plot.  No logical cause-effect occurrences to provide the
> reader with the sensation of movement, change, and action. . . .

No story.  (See below.)

> Instead, these authors require you to read differently, to assess
> the impact of each sentence, each thought, at an emotional and
> associative level.  Similar to a painting by Picasso, Dahlgren
> asks you to accept the artist's style as the most effective way to
> convey impressions and sensations.  If you can associate the
> elements in a Picasso painting with your own view of life, if you
> can understand why all the elements are collected onto one canvas,
> and if you had some reaction to the painting, then you appreciate
> Picasso as an artist, his painting as a work of art.

below: But it's the forest that's grand, as pretty as the trees are.
Picasso didn't do brush strokes, he did *pictures*, and it's the
pictures that are the art.  Similarly, *fiction* is the telling of
*stories*.  I don't demand a beginning, a middle, and an end (at
least, not necessarily in that order).  But a story is different
that an incident, a characterization, or a description.  You can
have prose that is just one of those three, just as you can have a
poem that doesn't tell a story.  I maintain that such is less
entertaining, and in some important sense, falls short even as Art.

> It is far easier to read a Fantasy novel than Sound and Fury, but
> you will find that the discipline of reading William Faulkner is
> rewarded by a greater appreciation for the power of the written
> word.

I agree with you there.  I read the first of Delany's Neveryon
books, and the primary feeling I got out of it was pride that I
finished it.  I'm not sure what that says about about the story.
Maybe that the writing was worthwhile, but the story wasn't worth
the effort.

> When can a novel be judged as A Work of Art?  The requirements are
> clear: the author must use skill, knowledge, and creativity in
> producing the novel.  The first novel by an author does not
> necessarily reveal the author's control over his craft, though it
> can indicate the level of creativity that the author is able to
> convey in writing.

Bush.  (As in 'bu--sh--'.)  A first novel reveals an author's
control over his or her craft at that point in his or her career.
Books are static (except in individual's appreciation); writers
grow.

You seem to be saying that *writers*, not *writing*, should be
categorized as Artistic or not.  Even given that such pigeonholing
is reasonable (reviews can point out good reads for readers who only
read Art?), no writer is perfect.  Not even in selecting what should
go out in the mail, rather than in the trash.

> To judge each book as a Work of Art is to limit the power of the
> Science Fiction genre, by creating a standard for authors to
> follow.  Since Science Fiction and Fantasy depend on innovation as
> well as effective technique, they can only suffer by attempting to
> conform to the standards imposed by the readership.  Better to
> judge a book for its own merits, an author for her unique skills,
> and be aware of artistic attempts that fail.  Not all Art is good,
> but all good novels are artistic.

I submit that this is true of all writing, from the worst articles
in Byte to Hemingway and/or Falkner.  The existence of "good reads"
doesn't detract from the quality of Art.  One can bemoan the
unwashed public's choice of entertainment over Art; however, in the
absence of official Art Recognizers (local #345 of the Teamsters, no
doubt), tomorrow's Art will come from today's "Entertainment".
Considering the wealth and variety of today's Art, that seems to
work out.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 85 02:01:45 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: "Artsy" books ...

"Artsy" things can be a problem, especially in books; so many of
them fail.  When they fail, they come across so hopelessly
self-conscious and pretentious that they can be almost painful to
read.  (and 90% of them will probably be failures, remember
Sturgeon's law)

The problem seems to me to be that a great deal of the "artsy" books
are written by lesser writers.  Sometimes lesser because they
haven't served their "apprenticeship" and learned their craft or
thye just don't have the talent; yet they decide to storm the
literary world and prove their "worth" by doing their "artsy" magnum
opus which will prove that they are the new James Joyce, or William
Shakespeare, or <fill your favorite great writer>.  Have set off
with great and ponderous deliberation they just keep rolling down
hill spewing out words (much like this sentence) without knowing
where to stop.

All of this is not to say that there are no good "artsy" books or
stories, I am not truly literate enough to pass that kind of
judgement.  Rather, in my somewhat rambling opinion, I mean to say
that the good ones are swamped by the bad ones.  The truly great
produce great works naturally, they don't set out (usually) to
produce the "ultimate" book or to prove themselves to be the equal
of whoever, they just do it; or if they do set out on such a course,
sheer talent carries them until they're past the foolishness
(usually).  It is not the intention of producing a work of art that
motivates them, it is the work of art itself calling out, demanding,
to be born.

To me, this is why the hack "artsy" works hurt so much to read.  It
is also why I am willing to read books like Gene Wolfe's works or
Stephen Donaldson's (if he would just learn the craft that goes with
his talent and cut out the purple portions) or Edgar Pangborn's;
these works are important and they shine even when you don't
understand all of what they are saying (and I never have, but they
are so beautiful to read).  Even the failed experiments by the
really talented are worth something for what they can show us of the
talent itself or of its limits.

I suppose, I shall have to read Dahlgren now and find out what I
think of it.  And if I really can stand by what I've just said.

        Steve Z.

p.s.  A few digests back, someone made a comment about Delany
insisting on Dahlgren going out unedited.  I found that interesting
because I had heard (several years ago) rumors that Dahlgren had
suffered from massive editing that was supposed to have hurt the
book.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 85 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #370
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 370

Today's Topics:

               Books - Brin & Hogan & Some Reviews &
                       First SF (2 msgs)
               Miscellaneous - Life Imitates D&D &
                       Star Wars (2 msgs) & Scientology &
                       Price Increase & Matter Transmission (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: water!bahilchie@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brian Hilchie)
Subject: Re: Separating wheat from chaff
Date: 9 Sep 85 16:42:40 GMT

> Negative Indicators
> 6. If book involves intelligent sea mammals.
>       (Especially dolphins!)

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who didn't like Startide
Rising. Can't figure out why it won the Hugo and Nebula. If this was
the best of the year it must have been a very bad year.

Brian Hilchie
{decvax,utzoo,ihnp4,allegra,clyde}!watmath!water!bahilchie

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:17:18 GMT

            THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan
                           Del Rey, 1983
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review: This is generally a good science fiction
     novel that does some interesting things to make a fantasy tale
     hard science fiction.  Unfortunately, the trappings of this
     novel are much more enjoyable than the actual fantasy story
     itself.  It is exquisite frosting on a rather bland cake.

     Generally, if fantasy and science fiction are combined in a
story, I would call the net result fantasy.  You cannot put ghosts
or werewolves into a science fiction story and have science fiction
when you are done.  I do make the exception that if you can give a
reasonable scientific explanation for the fantasy elements it will
make them science fiction.  THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER is apparently
James P. Hogan's effort to write a WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF-style
fantasy and make it science fiction.  Like WARLOCK, it is about
humans coming to a medieval society gone bad and fixing it up--STAR
TREK's prime directive be damned.

     Hogan's set-up for creating a new race at the medieval stage is
to describe how the robotics equivalent of genetics and evolution
could come about unintentionally.  It's not the easiest way to
create an alien race in a story, but it is the novel's finest hour.
It is really intriguing reading and, frankly, the kind of idea I
read science fiction for and all too rarely actually find.

     Also interesting is the main character.  By profession he is a
mass- media-psychic and charleton of the Uri Geller variety.  In the
early parts of the novel you see how Zambendorf is able to hoodwink
audiences in creative ways.  That also makes for intriguing reading
but what is even more intriguing is the question: if we discovered
intelligent robotic aliens in our solar system, why would anyone
want to use devious means to get a Uri Geller to the first contact?
Particularly if those people are convinced that the psychic is a
fraud.  When you do find out, it does make sense, but that puzzle
certainly kept me anxious.

     So Hogan creates an interesting character and an intriguing
mystery surrounding the character.  And his background description
for how the robot race came into existence is first-class science
fiction writing.  Unfortunately they all go together to make a sort
of second-rate fantasy story reminiscent of some of the cute plot
tricks pulled in certain third season STAR TREK episodes.  I'd give
this novel a +2 (on the -4 to +4 scale), but much more for the first
200 pages than for the last.
                              Mark R. Leeper
                              ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Second Helpings (Book Reviews)
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:17:58 GMT

                          Second Helpings
                   Book reviews by Mark R. Leeper

     Each of these books is from a series that I have reviewed at
some point in the past.  All the things I said before still apply to
the series as a whole; I am reviewing only one entry in each series:

                    BOOKS OF BLOOD I by Clive Barker
                            Sphere, 1984

     I read the three books of this collection in reverse order.
Three more volumes have been published and sit on my shelf; I'll
review them eventually.  Of the first three volumes, this is the
best, and the best story in the volume is "Midnight Meat-Train,"
about a Jew from Atlanta living in New York and getting involved in
a string of serial murders on the subways.  "The Yattering and Jack"
is a whimsical tale of a demon having problems frightening a man.  A
cut lower are "Pig Blood Blues," "In the Hills, the Cities," and
especially "Sex, Death, and Starshine."  The last spends 36 pages on
a story with only an okay idea.  All the stories in the series are
bound together by the framing story "Book of Blood," not much of a
story in itself (framing stories rarely are).  Barker is my idea of
a really creative horror writer.

        New James Bond Series: ROLE OF HONOR by John Gardner
                           Berkley, 1985

     This series is by a distinguished British author slumming,
continuing the adventures of Fleming's unflappable hero.  In ROLE OF
HONOR, Bond is fighting a super-plot by a computer genius.  The book
in fact, plays a little subtle trick on people who are
computer-literate.  The entire book is leading up to a master caper
called "The Balloon Game," the nature of which is revealed only in
the final chapters.  I would quibble with Gardner in that it seems
that the results of the Balloon Game could be undone in minutes, but
if the book had made that impossible, the Balloon Game would have
been a clever idea.  It is a pity that Bond is always playing for
such high stakes.  A cryptanalysis decoder is plenty high stakes in
FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.  The films and this book seem to imply that a
Bond story is not effective unless Bond is saving the entire Free
World.

               VALLEY OF THE FAR SIDE by Gary Larson
                   Andrews, McMeel & Parker, 1985

     Larson is starting to lose his touch.  A good three-quarters of
the cartoons in this book are not hilarious.  Most of those are only
very funny.  My favorite of the lot betrays my own prejudices:
"French Mammoth" shows a caveman giving a prehistoric mammoth an
absurd poodle haircut.  The great indignities are timeless.

     200 "Far Side" cartoons pack a lot of ideas and a lot of humor
in a compact space.
                           Mark R. Leeper
                           ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@topaz.rutgers.edu (Henry Chai)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 8 Sep 85 18:10:08 GMT

Why not a book of short stories ?? In this way one can be exposed to
different authors, diverse styles, etc.  I don't have one to
recommend, though.  By the way, MY first SF book was indeed a
collection of short stories.  It was a compulsory reader during my
Form 2 year (= grade 8) in Hong Kong.  I remembered that it's got
stories by Bradbury(sp?), Clarke and Asimov.

Henry Chai
Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto
{watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: First SF Book
Date: 16 Sep 85 13:42:21 GMT

>    I know there are some good intrductory novels, and some of the
> suggestions I have seen I agree with, but I think it is more
> important to know both the person and the novel equally well
> rather than blindly taking someone's suggestion.

I agree wholeheartedly.  I have loaned books to people that love
lots of magic in their books so I would pick something like
Magician.  Others read so slowly they get scared by trilogies so I
pull out something like Songmaster.  Frequently only a small
percentage of SF/Fantasy will interest some people and you try to
match that part given what they read now.  Other people will like a
large spectrum of the genre and if you give them a good book will
get hooked.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 85 00:53:50 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Life imitates D&D ...

The most recent issue of Time carried a simplified picture of the
computer model recent built for one of the cold viruses.  It looks
an awful lot like a D-20.  Now you can justify all that D&D gaming
as "Studies in Viral Assault Techniques on the Human System".

Ever wonder why some people NEVER get colds and some people have
them ALL the time?  Clearly it all has to do with saving throws and
luck!  The viral party decides to attack your cells, so it rolls
itself to determine its attack (it always has surprise so it gets
the first attack in).  Then your cells either all make their saving
throws or you get an infection of some degree.

Think of the new vistas of gaming that this opens up ...

        "Fantastic Voyage: the D&D Edition".

(feel free to develop this property, I want a mere 10% cut for
coming up with the idea)

DMs just think of all the new and unusual monsters: "Alright
players, now you've done it, you're in the midst of a swarm of
strange creatures; more of them are floating down the oddly
round shaped hallway towards you.  As you observe them, the larger
white ones begin to flow over some of the party members.  The red
ones seem to ignore you, they seem to be brainlessly purposeful,
both shades of them.  Others, smaller than the white ones begin to
clump up around others of you and fasten characters to the
floor/walls/ceiling/each other.  Some seem to be trying to nuzzle up
to you, or your weapons at any rate.  A large creature, somewhat
like a lumpy, ridged D-20 floats past and latches onto the cleric
(he has very few HP left) who immediately develops a horrible
hacking cough and visciously runny nose..."

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Blaster bolts and the Force
Date: 16 Sep 85 21:13:53 GMT

All this about blaster bolts, and how a Jedi Knight can deflect them

when I used to study Budo seriously, I spent a lot of time
practicing with wooden swords.  I noticed a couple of odd things:

1) Sometimes the damn' sword would zip over without me noticing what
it/I was doing -- usually when this happened I would either hit the
other guy, and he would say ``Where'd that come from'' or else it
would intercept a hit that I had never seen.

2) After a certain amount of time practicing, I would notice in some
drills that the swords were almost magnetic: they wanted to hit
together, usually in the same spot each time.

Clearly, lightsabers have at least as much smarts as a red-oak
bokken, and take care of it themselves.

                   Charlie Martin
                   (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons)
Date: 14 Sep 85 18:04:29 GMT

The idea of all the stormtroppers being clones of Obi Wan presents
two difficulties:

1) we clearly see in the deathstar docking bay that the troopers,
when lined up, are not all the same height.  I suppose the clones
could have been raised on worlds with different gravities, but ...

q2) Han and Luke mug two stormtroopers and steal their uniforms.
Surely they would have noticed if a) the two storm troopers were
identical and b) that both storm troopers looked like Obi Wan.

RJS

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Scientologists?
Date: 4 Sep 85 13:14:04 GMT

Postings on scientology are wholly appropriate to the science
fiction net, as anyone aware of both that religions history and the
history of sf is aware.  Fact: scientology was created by a
then-big-name SF writer.  Fact: it was promoted through the
editorial content of Astounding, the magazine we know today as
Analog.  Fact: almost all its early proponents were SF writers,
including such notables as A. E. van Vogt and Donald Kingsbury (who
has since been excommunicated).  Fact: scientological themes run
through the SF of those early days (SLAN is an example).  Fact:
Hubbard is using the Scientology organization to promote his SF,
including his novels and a new magazine.  Fact: Authors Services is
a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Church of Scientology with the sole
mandate to promote Hubbard's own science fiction.  Fact: Authors
Services seriously considered having Scientologists stuff the ballot
box for the Hugo.

Informed discussion is not bigotry, and you do the readers of the
net and yourself a grave injury by so freely tossing around a loaded
term.

RJS

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off!
Date: 16 Sep 85 12:54:25 GMT

If you're really serious about complaining about rising book prices,
a letter to the publisher is probably more effective than
complaining to the befuddled sales clerk at your local B. Dalton.

rjs

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file
Date: 24 Sep 85 05:33:18 GMT

>From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
>[Keith Lynch:]
>>>    Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could
>>>    you ever truly die?
>>>
>>>  Sure.  If all the copies get wiped out.  Just as books,
>>>music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost.  The
>>>more copies, and in the more places, the better.  Keep one
>>>in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance).
>
>[Mark Leeper:]
>> I think that there is a misconception here.  Your species remains
>> reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do
>> not.
>
>*If* just the genetic code is on file.  If all the information
>about your identity was put on file, you *could* come back.  In
>fact, there could be more than one of you.  This is assuming a
>materialist point of view--if there's a soul which flies away at
>death then the copy isn't the same.

OK, so there is more of you on file than just your genetic code.
Then a new copy is made.  I think the point still is valid.  As far
as the world is concerned you are alive, but that is an illusion.
You are dead.  There just is a perfect copy around that thinks it is
you.  The fact that two or three of these things can be made is the
clincher.  They can't all be the original.  Take my word for it, if
you are destroyed and replaced by an exact copy with your mind, you
are dead.  The exact copy is only that.  I know.  It happens to me
every night.
                   Mark Leeper
                   ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: wateng!clelau@topaz.rutgers.edu (Eric C.L. Lau)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication
Date: 17 Sep 85 03:05:51 GMT

KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA writes:
>> i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't
>> care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm
>> dead.  you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face,
>> but *i*'ll still be dead.
>
>  A duplicate isn't satisfactory?  Don't you know that the average
>atom in the body only stays there a few weeks?  Only a small
>percentage of the you of a year ago still exists.
>  I would bet that if you were duplicated, that you (the duplicate)
>wouldn't notice the difference.

I guess this question comes down to whether *I* am more than a bunch
of atoms, i.e. the existence of a soul.  Of course, that leaves
another good question: if you tranmit all my atoms elsewhere, where
does that leave my soul(assuming one exists)?  But if you don't
believe that souls exist, then transmit away.

Eric Lau
...!ihnp4!watmath!wateng!clelau

P.S. Please don't start a theological argument over this.  Leave
that in net.religion.  My brain was just running over onto my
keyboard.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 85 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #371
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 371

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Critics (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 85 11:48:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA

A couple of questions for Peter da Silva:

> Item: Leguin and the other authors you mentioned with her are
> outside the domain of SF. So, I think, are the other authors you
> mentioned. One must distinguish between SF and literature with an
> SF background. Stephen King writes plenty of the latter, but I
> don't believe he has provided one new theme.

Are "new themes" required for something to be considered to be
science fiction?  (Personally I feel that Stephen King writes
horror/suspense genre books, possibly with some science background
(see _Firestarter_).  But that categorization is based on reading
the books, not on some notion that there are no new themes
introduced......)

> Item: Most of Clarke's writings, and now Bob Forward's, are pretty
> bad literature, but they succeed by fulfilling the other and I
> believe more important goal of being great SF. It is possible to
> write great SF by concentrating on the SF aspect. It is not
> possible to do so by concentrating on the literature. See, for
> example, the works of Stephen King.

Why do you consider Forward's & Clarke's books "bad literature".  I
agree that they are good SF, presenting nifty new things to
consider, and so forth.....but why are they bad literature?
(Perhaps this question should be referred to the Great Art Debate,
and is only a matter of personal opinion....but I would be
interested to know why YOU consider them to be bad literature...)

                        -Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Re:  critics
Date: 16 Sep 85 11:51:26 GMT

chen@mitre-gateway.arpa writes:
> [quotes me here:]
>>Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it
>>can't be great art?  And if you have to work to understand it,
>>ditto?
>
>Judith and others,
>
>Basically, a classic piece of literature should be able to be
>read at many different levels.  It should be like an onion with
>many different layers (but no bad spots).  You should be
>able to read it for fun and enjoy it one time and be able
>to read it for something deeper some other time and enjoy it as well.
>When reading a classic piece of literature, you should get out
>of it what you put into it.  There should be deep and profound
>ideas, conflicts, etc. in the novel for those who are willing
>and able to look for them.  Yet, there should also be
>something for those who only want solid entertainment.
>
>Shakespeare, for example, in his time was a very popular
>playwright...  ...He was well liked because his plays were FUN.
>There were sexual innuendos, puns galore, and slapstick humor
>throughout all his plays.  They just don't appear that obvious to
>us now, because we don't know Elizabethan slang.

But we still read the plays of Shakespeare, despite the fact that
most of his puns, sexual innuendoes, and slapstick humor are lost on
us unless we study his writing.  (Of course, a lot of this does come
across in stage productions by directors who know the work well and
can give visual cues as to what the increasingly difficult language
means.)  But we don't READ Shak. because he's the same spinner of
rollicking hilarious yarns TO US that he was to his less educated
contemporaries.  That was exactly the point I made when I said that
the classics may have been great fun when they were contemporary,
but that as their language and their references become increasingly
obscure to us, we read them with more difficulty and for different
reasons.  For that matter, we still read the sonnets of Shakespeare,
and I don't believe they're susceptible of being read on your
"onion" model; they don't work as easy doggerel and also as compact,
dazzlingly inventive, intricate constructions of nested metaphors
that economically illuminate the depths of human emotion.

My point, which I tried to make in my earlier post, is that neither
you nor I nor Steve Brust IN FACT is committed to reading only works
that give immediate pleasure and are capable of appealing to a wide
variety of people on a great no. of levels.  We all love
Shakespeare, and we love him more when we know what he's referring
to in those metaphors that are no longer current.  I used him as an
example because he's the classic case of the difficult work that's
worth studying, the work whose obscurities -- once investigated --
are transformed into sources of new light on the deepest places of
the human heart.

And the more general point I tried to illustrate with this example
is that if so many of us find Shakespeare worth working through,
even though his writing has become difficult to understand, it's
certainly possible that more recent writers, who simply don't bother
to write at a level accessible to any high school graduate, are also
worth the effort.

As William Ingogly recently pointed out, there are definitions of
"fun" that denote other activities than the mindless enjoyment of a
work that makes no demands on the reader.  The work of deciphering
an elegant little program, which does in three lines what I'd only
been able to do in six, is incredible fun, for a variety of obvious
reasons: I learn something about programming, I feel the presence of
the other programmer & rejoice that I have found someone I can learn
from, and thereby improve my own creations; and I simply feel joy at
watching the great trapeze act that is an agile mind moving in
perfect grace among its creations.

I get exactly the same feeling when, after ten or so readings of
William Gaddis' _JR_, which is almost all dialogue, I begin to be
able to tell who's talking and where the plot's going at almost all
points in the book, and begin to be sure that everything's perfectly
connected and there are no loose ends in over 700 pages.  After
about 5 readings, I began to see that almost all of this book was
overpoweringly funny, too... but that's not the level I began at.  I
got into it because I was tantalized by the idea that an author
could entirely abandon the whole stream-of-consciousness tradition
and show nothing but dialogue, and yet make that dialogue so
consistent that with a bit of attention I became able to tell at
almost all points who was speaking, and about what.  THEN the fun
began.

You just never know until you get in a little way.  And I don't feel
it's a writer's obligation to put a sugar coating of easy, fun,
helluva-good-read stuff on the outside of the work to draw the
reader into the recesses of his/ her view of the depths of human
reality.  Nor do I believe a reader should expect him/her to do so.
It makes more sense to me to develop my abilities to watch the sheer
mastery of language and idea that our most brilliant writers
invariably display, and, if I see that going on in a book, to go on
and investigate the possibility that it also has a plot, ideas,
humor, characters I can identify with, and so forth.

Why should a novel or a play be required to provide instant
gratification in some way, then to draw the reader into more
profound levels of discourse?  This has never been required of
poetry, or at least not since poetry moved away from the song form
in the Middle Ages.  And it's still not required of those "classics"
which almost all of us read, and read in translation.

If we're willing to go after the fun that's still in the Odyssey, by
reading translations of it, and we don't condemn it for being
difficult in its "raw" form, i.e., in Greek, on what grounds are we
to condemn a recent work that's difficult the first time around?  If
we read an annotated version of Shakespeare in order to appreciate
the humor of the plays, does that make him less of a "great" writer?

If we're to go on seriously with this discussion, we might consider
working out -- by consensus -- a set of working definitions of the
terms we're bandying about.  It makes little sense to me to speak of
"accessible" literature, "art" literature, "fun," and "good reads,"
when these words obviously refer to different works depending on
who's using them.  There exist more exact terms, used routinely in
the work of criticism of all kinds.  For example, the term
"entertainment" normally means anything -- a book, a piece of music,
a TV show -- that gives immediate pleasure, essentially to everyone,
and makes no demands on a typical mind that has developed in our
culture without making any special effort to train itself to process
recreational input.  The word "art" is usually used to denote work
that assumes rather more education on the part of the consumer, and
more willingness to assume an active role in pulling meaning or
pleasure or anything else out of it.  It we use these terms, we may
then say very simply that entertainment is by definition fun.  We
may also say that some art is, or includes, or may be taken to be,
entertainment, and that some art isn't, doesn't, and isn't.  We can
allow Steve Brust to reserve the use of the term "great literature,"
in his private lexicon, for description of art that doubles as
entertainment and hence gives pleasure to more people than art that
doesn't.

But all this juggling of subjective judgments -- "Well, *I* had fun
with Hamlet" ... "I found Ulysses hilarious!" ... "Melville is great
fun!" ...  "This work FAILS as literature, because it wasn't fun
[for me]." ... is getting us nowhere.

Judith Abrahms
{ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: critics (Long!!) What is art?
Date: 16 Sep 85 15:16:00 GMT

>> For me, great art should have both style and structure and the
>> two should complement each other. Experiments with style may be
>> fun for the author and interesting for the literate but without a
>> complementing structure, the result is unlikely to be great art.
>
>This is, I think, the essence.  Given a story to tell, or a theme
>to explore, a writer may choose from an infinite number of
>structures that will handle it.  Only one, in any given case, is
>the best.  While form and content (terms I'm more comfortable with)
>may be discussed separately, content determines form.  It is the
>interaction (and, frequently, the conflict) between them that
>allows knowledge to develop.
>
>And as for what is art, try this for part of the definition: the
>process of exposing the underlying contradictions that are hidden
>in mundane life through crafting a work that is esthetically (sp?)
>pleasing.
>                        -- SKZB

A mild demure on one point.  The statement "only one (structure), in
any event is the best" assumes that the "best" is definable,
recognizable, and agreed upon.  Each structure will yield a unique
combination of effects; which combination of effects is the best
depends on auctorial intent, which is something that even the author
may not be consciously aware of, and the aggregate perceptions of
the readership, which is culturally determined and will vary with
time and society.

That many classics are widely agreed to be be great works is only
indicative that the authors struck pretty close to dealing with raw
universal truths that seem [so far] to transcend time and culture.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re:  critics
Date: 16 Sep 85 14:41:31 GMT

chen@mitre-gateway.arpa writes:
>Shakespeare, for example, in his time was a very popular
>playwright, and not because his plays were thought to be that good
>or profound.  (In fact, a lot of people looked down him and his
>work.)  He was well liked because his plays were FUN.  There were
>sexual innuendos, puns galore, and slapstick humor throughout all
>his plays.  They just don't appear that obvious to us now, because
>we don't know Elizabethan slang.

E.g. "country matters" in Hamlet.

Having seen several Shakespeare performances by the Royal
Shakespeare Company in London and Stratford, and also by the
National Theatre in London over the last year, all I can say is that
Shakespeare transcends all the arguments about 'Art' V.
'Entertainment'.

Seeing a London audience literally creasing itself laughing at
"Love's Labours Lost" last month sent shivers up and down my spine
(I was laughing too!!). I mean, these were 400 (or so) year old
lines that not only meant something but were also funny. Now, *that*
is an achievement.

"Richard III" last year in Stratford was possibly the most
extraordinary play I have ever seen. Etc, etc.

Now here's my 2p's worth in the Great Debate:

Surely, a great and lasting work is one that works on many different
levels.

The upper level may be a simple story, song or farce; easily
assimilated. But when you've finished it you think - "Wait.  I think
there was more to that than first appears." So you read, listen or
look again. And you find more. And you find that every time you go
back to it you find something new, or a different way of looking at
it. Or you find that your way of looking at the world has changed.

This can't happen if the work is not accessible at the upper level.
In fact, many may not want to go any further or even suspect that
there is further to go, and yet it will still have been satisfying
for them. Some may take a short-cut through the upper levels and go
straight to the deeper meaning. If there is nothing below the upper,
visible, level, then what you have may be entertainment, but it's
not art.

Naming some examples of what I mean is self-defeating; everyone has
had this sort of experience. A typical example is an exciting
adventure story that turns out to be an allegory *AS WELL*. An
allegory by itself is unutterably tedious.

Quality and craftsmanship ARE absolutes - a well-made table is one
that is good for putting things on, is visually satisfying, and
carries on being both these things. A badly-made table looks trashy
and falls apart in use.  Similar criteria apply to any man-made
thing, be it a table, your rewrite of 'ls' or a SF (or other) novel.

Now go and take a 5 minute break,

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: fortune!horton@topaz.rutgers.edu (Randy Horton)
Subject: Re: The Literature of Ideas
Date: 17 Sep 85 23:41:51 GMT

>To me, "SF" means what we point to and say "that's SF."  (Does
>anyone out there know who came up with that definition?  I'm sure I
>read it somewhere...)

I could easily be wrong, but I believe that this was originated by
S.I. Hayakawa in his book *Language in Thought and Action*.  If not
originated then perhaps first popularized.

By the way, for people interested in Language and meanings of words,
this book is recommended readig.

Randy Horton @ Fortune Systems
allegra\
cbosgd  \
dual     >!fortune!ranhome!randy
ihnp4   /
nsc    /

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 85 00:13:32 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Fuelage for the flamage ...

        "... ferociously dedicated to the craft of it as well as its
        art - the latter being the part of the job with which
        writers who have been to college most frequently excuse
        laziness, sloppiness, cant, and promiscuous
        self-indulgence."

        -- from Steven King's introduction to Harlan Ellison's
                                "Stalking the Nightmare"

I assert that I have not taken the meaning of this out of context.
If you don't believe me, well, get the book and read the
introduction for yourself.  (Hmm, maybe King is right with that
carton of milk analogy...  the book does seem to rubbing off on me!)

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 85 0959-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #372
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 372

Today's Topics:

               Books - Alexander (5 msgs) & Bradley &
                       Kilian & Morris & Morrow & Zelazny &
                       Book Request,
               Music - After the Gold Rush,
               Miscellaneous - On the growth of fantasy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE BOOK OF THREE by Lloyd Alexander
Date: 19 Sep 85 03:12:13 GMT

  THE BOOK OF THREE tells of Taran, a boy who dreams of adventure,
honor, and glory.  "I'm not even anything at Caer Dallben!", he
cries in frustration.  "Very well," says one of the men who raised
him, "if that is all that troubles you, I shall make you something.
From now on, you are Taran, Assistant Pig-Keeper." Such a title,
even when the pig is a very special one, is not much of an honor,
and Taran wishes for more.

  He gets it; an evil wind blows through the farm, the pig digs its
way out of its pen, and Taran chases after it into the worst threat
to trouble Prydain since the coming of the House of Don stopped
Arawn Death-Lord from taking the land.  Taran is joined by a motly
crew: Gurgi, a not-man, not-creature who is uncomfortable among
humans and animals alike, searching even more desperately than Taran
for a place in life.  Eilowyn, a princess without a family, sent to
learn sorcery under the second most evil soul in Prydain, Achren,
former consort of Arawn.  Fflewddur Fflam, a king of a small kingdom
on the outskirts of Prydain, who wants to be a bard instead.  Doli,
a dwarf whose inability to turn himself invisible makes him an
outcast among the Fair Folk.  The "Companions" come face to face
with the Horned King, Arawn's hand picked, hand corrupted war lord.

   A special note about THE BOOK OF THREE.  Just this past weekend,
I finished reading it aloud to my nine-year-old.  He probably could
have handled most of it by himself, but he enjoyed listening, and I
enjoyed reading it aloud.  This book would make a good cassette; it
would make a great few weeks of bedtime reading.  Read it yourself
first, work out the jawbreaker-looking names, pick a voice for every
character, and enjoy.  After the first five chapters, every other
chapter has a cliff hanger ending you can't leave, so plan on
reading two chapters a night.  Leave enough time to read the last
four chapters in one sitting.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE BLACK CAULDRON by Lloyd Alexander
Date: 19 Sep 85 03:13:09 GMT

  THE BLACK CAULDRON is the second book in the series.  As I
understand it, the movie (which I didn't see) takes most of its
story, and all of its characters, from the first book.  In the book,
Prince Gwydion gathers bold men from all Prydain to Caer Dallben,
where he plans a raid to the outskirts of the Land of the Dead,
Annunvin, Arawn's domain.  Taran is not an innocent boy, thrust into
adventure.  He is a (not very) experienced, (very) young man, picked
for a dangerous task.  He learns that the fate of heroes is not
always to win, or even to die honorably.  The task his band is set
out on quickly becomes impossible, and they stumble onto a new
quest, bolder and far more treacherous.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE CASTLE OF LLYR by Lloyd Alexander
Date: 19 Sep 85 03:14:33 GMT

  THE CASTLE OF LLYR is where Eilowyn is sent in the third book, and
the Companions escort her there.  She has been sent there to learn
something of being a lady and a princess.  Taran is doubly
uncomfortable about this, because his ignorance of his parentage
makes him unsure of his station, and because the Prince of Llyr,
whom Taran reluctantly befriends, is clearly a more suitable match
for the Princess than an Assistant Pig-Keeper.  But the powers of
Annunvin are not far away. . . .

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: TARAN WANDERER by Lloyd Alexander
Date: 19 Sep 85 03:18:55 GMT

  TARAN WANDERER is unlike any children's book I've ever read.
Taran abandons home and adventure to search for his identity, but
finds both unbidden.  There's plenty of action here, in what's both
a transitional tale, and a surprisingly strong story.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE HIGH KING by Lloyd Alexander
Date: 19 Sep 85 03:19:52 GMT

  THE HIGH KING brooks no sequel.  It is the last story, the tale of
the final clash between the House of Don and the forces of Arawn.
All the loose ends are tied up, or dealt with the way Alexander
dealt with the Gorgon's knot.  It tells of a war that is
unavoidable, that must be fought, but that brings slaughter more
often than glory.  This is a grim book for children or adults, "a
battle," according to Lloyd in his Author's Note, "whose aftermath
is deeper in consequences than the struggle itself." Yet the story
is as suitable for children as adults, except maybe at bedtime;
it'll keep kids up late with nightmares, and older readers up with
the midnight oil.  Highly, highly recommended.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 85 23:12:58 edt
From: romkey@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (John Romkey)
Subject: Warrior Woman

Marion Zimmer Bradley's latest book, "Warrior Woman" (I can't
BELIEVE this title!) is out from DAW. The cover heralds it as "The
adventures of Zadieyek of Gyre" and mentions Mists of Avalon but not
Darkover. It looks like it's something completely independent.
                                        - john romkey
                                          romkey@borax.mit.edu

------------------------------

From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: Re: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian
Date: 18 Sep 85 20:53:02 GMT

I just want to give a positive comment to this book. It's been some
time since I read it but I do remember that I enjoyed it enough to
re-read it and recommend it to others.

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan    ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: what is The Stump really?
Date: 17 Sep 85 14:12:29 GMT

swb@lasspvax.UUCP (Scott Brim) writes:
>In "Dream Dancer" by Janet Morris, the first space platform built
>above the Earth (about a thousand years before the events in the
>book) is called "The Stump."  The origin of the name is "lost in
>antiquity".  This smacks of an idea that has a basis in reality.
>Is this a nickname for the current space station project?  Did it
>perhaps come from another book?

Where I come from (he says, pulling a dusty and battered straw
cowboy hat from under piles of listings) somebody who was in a tight
spot was said to be "Up a stump."

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE CONTINENT OF LIES by James Morrow
Date: 19 Sep 85 02:55:49 GMT

       THE CONTINENT OF LIES: novel, James Morrow: Baen, 1985

    One of the nicest things about hanging around with SF fans is
that you get the early poop on what's good and what's bad.  You also
get to borrow books other people recommend.  That's what I'd
intended to do with THE CONTINENT OF LIES, which a friend of mine
highly recommended to me.  But I was down at the beach, where the
local "book store" sold as many video tapes as books, and at least
as many magazines as tapes and books combined.  I broke down and
bought a copy.

    So it goes.

    In the far (but not drastically different) future, the single
success of genetic engineering has brought us the "cephapple" (fruit
of the "noostree", also know as "dreambean" or "brainbomb").  A
specific dream can be chemically encoded into such an apple, and the
dreams can be mass produced so that different people can eat the
same dream, to just about the same extent as you and I can walk into
a theater in the Amboy Googleplex and see the same movie.  (My
friend's greatest criticism is that genetics couldn't have produced
such a wonder without changing the world in other ways, ala Bruce
Sterling's Shapers.  I didn't have any trouble accepting this as a
given.) But there's a rogue dreamer out there, hidden by reality and
other, who's apples can make a lie of "reality".

    THE CONTINENT OF LIES has all the elements I look for in an SF
novel, and then some: a rich world, new ideas, interesting
characters, good pacing.  So why did everything seem shallow to me?
I think it was the writing.  Morrow frequently seems to be forcing
the story, with flowery, overpowering prose breaking ranks and
calling attention to itself, distracting from the story.  I've no
dislike for elegant language in its place, but its place is not
scattered within the matter-of-fact prose of this novel.

    Aw, nuts.  I haven't been so uncomfortable about disliking a
story since TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON.  There's a lot here for a lot
of readers, and the friend who recommended THE CONTINENT OF LIES is
as sensitive to good writing as I am.  And I'd love to have a Baen
book to praise.  Somehow, this isn't it.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right?
Date: 17 Sep 85 22:39:57 GMT

My 2-cents about first SF: "Lord of Light" is by far my favorite SF
work.  I have given that book to several people for their first
read...  which explains why I recently bought my 5th copy of the
paperback!  However, I think there is something to be said for short
stories, esp.  by humanists such as Ray Bradbury (is he persona non
grata in these parts? I can't remember seeing his name on the net).
"Farenheit 451" (I know, not a SS) and the "R is for Rocket"
collection are both good.  My mother, sweet Republican Presbyterian
realist/pragmatist that she is, loved "Fire and Ice" in that book,
and has continued to read others like it.

                Mike Sellers
UUCP:{ucbvax,decvax,uw-beaver,hplabs,ihnp4,allgra}
     !tektronix!iddic!dorettas

------------------------------

From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right?
Date: 17 Sep 85 22:39:57 GMT

Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of SF
coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the speed
of light (i.e., no hyperspace, LucasDrive [the drive that allows you
to go anywhere in the Universe in 20 minutes], etc.).  This would
include stories concerning humanity settling other solar systems
using relativistic flight, but especially works written around the
thesis that while we can explore, travel, and settle this system, we
just never do get out of it.  I haven't been able to locate any with
a cursory search, and would appreciate any input (or discussion).

                Mike Sellers
UUCP:{ucbvax,decvax,uw-beaver,hplabs,ihnp4,allgra}
     !tektronix!iddic!dorettas

------------------------------

From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right?
Date: 17 Sep 85 22:39:57 GMT

> Back in V 10 #277 (July), druxo!knf@topaz.arpa mentions a song
> "Children of the Sun", which I believe is actually a reference to
> the song "After the Gold Rush", on an album by a group called (I
> think) Gold Rush. This song is particularly memorable to me, is
> the first cut on the album, and is sung [excellently] acappella.

In reference to the above song "After the Gold Rush": I am almost
positive that it was done by Neil Young (you should recognize that
falsetto), and yes, the album is called "Gold Rush".  I was also
told (you can store this with unconfirmed UFO sightings) that the
words referred to a soldier dying in a (Vietnam?) war.  Definitely a
good, if haunting, song.

                Mike Sellers
UUCP:{ucbvax,decvax,uw-beaver,hplabs,ihnp4,allgra}
     !tektronix!iddic!dorettas

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: On the growth of fantasy
Date: 19 Sep 85 02:53:46 GMT

<from the "Lincroft-Holmdel Science Fiction Club Notice", the
largest *weekly* publication in all SF!  Mark Leeper, editor; Evelyn
Leeper, publisher; open to all employees of AT&T, mail the Leepers
to join.  This is from my occasional "column" of reviews, mine and
others'; this week, Evelyn had some short reviews, and so did I.
They started with:>

  A lot of this week's column conists of reviews of fantasies by new
writers.  It isn't because Evelyn and I prefer fantasy to SF.
Instead, the new crop of writers seems to prefer it.

    Why?  A lot of it may have to do with the weak press the space
program's been getting, and NASA's "success" at replacing dreams
with engineering in orbit.  This is *not* necessarily a by-product
of having dreams come true!  A counter example, the explosion of
accessible, personal computers, proves that.  The "hacker" and
similar communities have managed to keep their discipline while
expanding their creativity.  (Indeed, I wonder how many would-be
hard SF writers ended up writing software instead?)

    To a large extent, a single writer made fantasy both
artistically and commercially accepted.  In 1965, J. R. R. Tolkien's
fifteen hundred page novel, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, created a world
more rich and vivid than any SF novel (even DUNE, which was
published in the same year.) My copy (from 1973) came from the
thirty-ninth printing!  Publishers realized this thing could sell,
and looked to buy more.  What followed was a classic example of
positive feedback: writers wrote more, publishers sold more, readers
bought more, leading editors to buy more. . . .

    Twenty years after THE LORD OF THE RINGS, we're through at least
the second generation of "modern fantasy" writers.  The commercial
feedback has lead to a artistic one.  Young writers in the field are
as likely to be impressed by fantasy writers as SF writers.  When
they hit their mark, it's often fantasy they've been aiming for.
Today, it seems most of the bright, exciting SF writers aren't
writing SF at all!

    Maybe it's somehow related to the "new wave" of experimental SF
that rose in the 60's.  (By encouraging writers to stray from hard
science?  Or by discouraging them from SF?) DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS and
other fantasy role playing games probably had some influence, too
(the greatest influence on *them*, though, was Tolkien).  Anyway,
the genre is now entering its third decade of crying for new hard SF
writers.  The 60's brought Larry Niven, and others; the 70's, John
Varley, and others.  This decade will see more new faces, but "hard
SF" will continue to bend in new directions.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 85 1028-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #373
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 22 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 373

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Delany & Duane &
                              MacAvoy (2 msgs) &
                              1985 Hugos,
                      Films - Dune,
                      Miscellaneous - Bars & Boring Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pur-ee!hsut@topaz.rutgers.edu (Yuk Hsu)
Subject: Nabokov and Delany (reply to Stuart)
Date: 18 Sep 85 21:07:19 GMT

        Stuart Cracraft made some interesting remarks about
Nabokov's Lolita versus Delany's Dhalgren. I enjoyed both books, so
I can be depended on to make some reasonably objective remarks,
right? :-) :-)

        Stuart (and many other people on the net, it seems) detested
Dhalgren because of its self-indulgence. While I,too, thought
Dhalgren was self-indulgent (though I have a weakness for
self-indulgent books), I think the richness of the language and a
lot of the imagery and clever little puns and tricks make it a
worthwhile reading experience.  Of course, I always WARN people not
to read Dhalgren if they have not read any other Delany book, since
many common themes appear through Delany's works and these are more
accessible in their earlier, simpler forms.  Also, I don't consider
Dhalgren to be Delany's masterpiece. (A friend of mine decided to
ignore my suggestion and picked up Dhalgren as an introduction to
Delany's works. Pity him...)

        Delany wrote many other more accessible books before
Dhalgren.  Try Babel-17, The Einstein Intersection or Nova for a
good read. The "new" book Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand is
also very readable and interesting.

        Stuart's preference of Nabokov over Delany seems to be a
preference for a different "type" of novel. Lolita and Dhalgren are
very different books that try to do very different things. (cliche
about comparing apples and oranges here... :-) ) Please don't say
Delany and Joyce write garbage because you don't like their type of
experimentations. I must say the later works of Edward Albee and
LeGuin's The Dispossessed rather bored me (sorry, folks...), but I
think they are significant pieces of literature.

        A point of taste here: while I enjoyed Lolita too, I must
dispute Stuart's claim that Nabokov did not write any other novel
that compared favorably with Lolita. I thought Pale Fire was a much
richer and interesting work; I definitely enjoyed it more. It's one
of the funniest books I've ever read (but then I've been accused of
having a perverse sense of humor :-) ...)

                              Bill Hsu
                              pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE DOOR INTO FIRE/THE DOOR INTO SHADOW by Diane Duane
Date: 19 Sep 85 02:57:06 GMT

THE DOOR INTO FIRE and THE DOOR INTO SHADOW: novels, Diane Duane:
Tor.  Originally published in 1979 and 1983.

    These two books are finally both available in mass market
paperback.  (Due to quirks of the publishing industry, Tor brought
out the second book *first*.) I'd heard a lot about Duane, and
overcoming my mild antipathy towards fantasy, bought both books.

    Duane nicely creates a vivid, interesting world.  In the
Beginning, there was the Goddess, actually three personalities, one
woman at three ages: Maiden, Mother, and Eldest.  She created the
world too carelessly, too quickly to remove Death from it before she
set it in its form.  She will eventually lose to Death, as
relentless as "entropy" in our understanding of the world, and aided
in its destruction by the Shadow, the Maiden's Lover destroyed by
jealousy.  Every human has Fire (magic) within him or her, but only
a few women and an occasional legendary man can control it, nurture
it, keep it burning before it smothers from neglect, and use it.
There are afterlives, and afterworlds, some pleasant, some not.

    Ideas are fine, but fiction requires Story.  It's here, both in
the characters and in the plot.  Herewiss is that once-in-an-eon
rarity, a man with enough Fire to be a sorcerer, but without yet
Control to keep it from burning out.  Freelorn was a cheerful,
adventurous firstborn prince, until his father died and the
exchequer took rein of the kingdom while Freelorn was out of it.
Segnbora, like Herewiss, has Fire but no Control over it; she's been
kicked out of apprenticeships from one end of the Middle Kingdoms to
the other, in desire, and finally, in shame.  They're not cardboard
cutouts; they have conflicting, sometimes hidden motivations, and
doubts and fears.  And always, rarely visible, the Goddess and the
Shadow, Life and Death incarnate, play the eternal game that Good
cannot forever maintain.  There's plenty of action, too, none
mindless.  (The second book picks up later in the night that the
first book ended on!)

    A few random observations.  THE BOOK OF THE FIVE conists of
these and two more books, THE DOOR INTO SUNSET and THE DOOR INTO
STARLIGHT.  The third of the series will appear "in late 1985 or
early 1986", probably in Bluejay trade paperback.  (Why does THE
BOOK OF THE FIVE conist of four books?  I dunno.) The whole series
is "light fantasy", not in the sense that everyone is always happy,
but in that everything is convenient.  Everyone is royalty and a
polymath, no one has to go to the bathroom, inns have single rooms,
and armor is easy and quick to take off for making love.  There are
several elements borrowed from Anne McCaffrey; I'm not sure if I
liked that or not.  There is a bit of psychiatry in each book; not
surprising, Duane is a psychiatric nurse.  (You may now bite back
the elitist thought you just had about nurses.)  The prose is good,
a nice mixture of terseness with an occasional, appropriate flower.

    Don't think of it as losing another SF writer.  Think of it as
gaining another fantasy writer, and a good one.  And enjoy.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: bambi!mike@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael Caplinger)
Subject: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON
Date: 18 Sep 85 20:38:50 GMT

Why do people like TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON?  I just read it
recently, and to my mind, it's a mediocre mystery story, with a
not-terribly- interesting computer tie-in, and a small amount of
poorly explained mysticism to justify the "fantasy" label.

Maybe there's something I'm missing?  Since many people seem quite
fond of this book, perhaps you can tell me why.

Mike

------------------------------

From: canisius!salley@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Salley)
Subject: Re : The Book of Kells
Date: 18 Sep 85 16:29:33 GMT

> There have been theories (as yet unproven with any real rigor)
> that the ancient Celtic knotwork (with which the BOK's illuminated
> manuscripts abound) were a form of musical notation.  The
> connection between music and the spirals was always quite clear in
> the book.  Hence, the opening of the time portal was not so much
> due to the cross John was tracing, but the geometry of the spirals
> themselves.

  I showed the above article to one of my housemates whose hobbies
include both Caligraphy and Illumination and playing the guitar.
She asked that I post her response.

"Re : The use of Celtic Knotwork as a system of musical notation -
horse hockey!  Anyone who is familiar w/ *any* system of musical
notation and who has seen a full size reproduction of the Book of
Kells will readily understand this.  For those who don't, the entire
weaving is so tiny and intricate that it requires a magnifying glass
to fully appreciate some of it.  In addition to this obvious
problem, there is the further one of the irregularity and regularity
of the knot work itself.  Yes, *both!* The patterns vary but not in
the fashion of musical notation.  Within a page, the regularity of
the pattern is such that you would be playing or singing scales and
only scales.  On the other hand, each page is DIFFERENT.  There are
some simlarities between the knot work patterns on different pages
but there is nothing to show the patterns would fit into a musical
notation system.  It's too much alike on each page but too different
on all the pages together.
        Sorry to blow your theory.  As for the connection between
time portals and knot work - well, you're free to dream.

                                Sincerely,      - Cori"

You may address any replies to me and I will forward them to her.

David P. Salley

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: 1985 HUGO Winners, et al.
Date: 16 Sep 85 20:23:00 GMT

For those that may not have heard, here are the major 1985 Hugo
Winners.

Best Novel:  NEUROMANCER, by William Gibson
Best Novella:  PRESS ENTER*, by John Varley
Best Novellette:  BLOODCHILD, by Octavia Butler   (6/84, Asimov's)
Best Short Story:  THE CRYSTAL SPHERES, by David Brin   (1/84, Analog)
Best Dramatization:  2010 (the movie)
John W. Campbell Award (for best new writer. technically not a Hugo):

Personal Commentary:

I highly recommend the following nominees that didn't win:

Novels:  THE PEACE WAR, by Vernor Vinge (previously reviewed on this
                    net)
         EMERGENCE, by David Palmer (a first novel, based on two
                    novellas, first & second sales, in Analog.
                    Good, despite (?) ending.)

Novella:  SUMMER SOLSTICE, by Charles Harness. (6/84, Analog)
                    (I thought this was better than PRESS ENTER,
                    which is a very fine work.)

Novelette:  BLUED MOON, by Connie Willis  (very funny)
                      (1/84, Asimov's)

Short Stories:  THE ALIENS WHO KNEW, I MEAN, *EVERYTHING*
                     by George Alec Effinger
                  (3/84, F&SF)  (also funny)

                SYMPHONY FOR A LOST TRAVELER, by Lee Killough
                  (3/84, Analog)  (Excellent.  I thought it should
                                     have won.)

It's interesting that this year's big-name novels JOB: A COMEDY OF
JUSTICE (Heinlein) and THE INTEGRAL TREES (Niven) did not win, the
same fate as.  last year's big-name novels.  My preliminary info.
says PEACE WAR came in second.  It's encouraging to see that while
name recognition and attendant high sales may get a work on the
ballot, more discerning judgment is used by the voters for the final
selection.

As per my earlier comments about Asimov, I'll cast down the gauntlet
again and say that I don't think INTEGRAL TREES is anywhere near
Niven's previous quality and while JOB is an improvement over other
recent Heinlein, that's not saying a hell of a lot.

------------------------------

From: cisden!Merlyn@topaz.rutgers.edu (Merlyn)
Subject: Why the Dune movie was no good
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:48:08 GMT

inc@fluke.UUCP (Gary Benson) writes:
>> While we're on the subject, I lost all respect for Frank Herbert
>> after he told us that the movie they made of _Dune_ was faithful
>> to the book.
>>                                      Tommy Phillips
>Well, Tommy, perhaps the movie version wasn't faithful to the book
>you read, but to lose respect for a man who says a movie was
>failthful to the book he wrote seems pretty outlandish. Maybe you
>weren't reading what he wrote?
>
>I reread Dune just before seeing the movie, and I was impressed
>overall by what a nice job was done. It must be extremely difficult
>to translate a novel to the screen, and perhaps this is even more
>true when the novel has the kinds of subtleties that Dune had. My
>only complaint about the movie is that is seems to have been shot
>too dark. I agree with the author: the movie is probably as good a
>screen translation as can be done.
>
>It strikes me that to disagree with the person who *wrote* the
>thing is like saying, "Well, obviously the author isn't aware of
>the nuances that occur in his novel". I ask you, who is a better
>judge than the author? You?  --
> Gary Benson * John Fluke Mfg. Co.  * PO Box C9090 * Everett WA *
>98206

Where in the book did you see those silly sound guns?  Baron
Harkonnen's "heart plugs"?

Did you see the "ornithopter" flapping it's wings in the movie?  Did
the Baron look to you as if he was too fat to walk without suspensor
globes?  The book specifically mentions that the stillsuits were a
slick gray material, not black leather.

The Voice was supposed to be a subtle alteration of voice and
inflection designed to resemble the subject's idea of unrefusable
authority, not the same growling for everyone.

What about Paul making it rain on Arrakis?  That would kill
sandworms.  What about what they did to the meaning of being the
Kwisatz-Haderach?  The place the male could see but the female could
not had to do with the giving nature of women and the taking nature
of men.  I don't completely agree with the concept, but it has
nothing to do with teleporting rainclouds across the galaxy.

The Guild navigators did not teleport spaceships in the book, they
looked at the near future and chose a safe path.

I did not expect to see all the subtleties of the book in the movie.
I would have liked to have seen the same story.

Frank Herbert had a very strong motivation for lying about how good
the movie was.  Money.  I have nothing against authors getting money
from people making movies of their books.  But I wish he had said
something like, "Don't expect too much, but the sandworms are nice,
and some of the actors are perfect for their (three-minute) parts."
Just to keep us from expecting too much.

Tommy Phillips
trantor!phillips

PS: I really enjoyed the book _Dune_.  I've read it a number of
times.  I did not like any of its sequels.  I have enjoyed some of
Herbert's other work.  He tells a good story (sometimes), and his
style enhances the narrative.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Sep 85 10:42:23 edt
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: RE:  Alien Creatures Barhopping

Science News a while back (can't find the article at the moment, but
will dig it up if requested) reported a study of animal
self-intoxication, done by some university in southern California,
which showed that several different mammals, given the choice, will
get drunk, preferring beverages with an alcoholic content similar to
that of beer (which happens to be the proof that rotting vegetables
and fruit attain naturally).  Included were elephants and cattle,
possibly also some kind of monkey, and I think there was even an
anecdote in it about an animal with a drinking problem that
disappeared when his quality of life (i.e. cage size or addition of
companion of same species) improved.  Their conclusion was something
like, "the seeking out and ingesting of mind- altering substances is
a normal behavior found among mammals in nature".

This is from memory, so I may have some of the details wrong.  I
don't remember whether the issue of drinking alone vs in the company
of peers was addressed in the study or not.  I grant you that only a
select sub-group of Earth creatures were tested.  I imagine that the
California researchers had difficulty in obtaining funding for the
farther-reaching study of voluntary ingestion of mind-altering
substances among aliens.
                         C. R. Morrison

------------------------------

From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow)
Subject: Re: Boring Aliens
Date: 19 Sep 85 12:54:17 GMT

judith@proper.UUCP (judith) writes:
>>Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ?
>Margaret St. Clair wrote a story in the '50s or so about a boring
>race.  It, and they, were called "Prott."  They did nothing but
>bore humans.  They were

There was a story published earlier this year in one of the SF mag-
azines (F&SF, maybe) called "The Aliens That Knew I Mean
Everything."  I forget the author's name, but the story was very
enjoyable.  They were humanoid, and they had opinions about
everything (e.g. "The rest of the universe is just wild about
hollyhocks."), which they felt duty- bound to impart to us poor,
uncultured humans.  They also had spaceships that ran on vacuum
tubes.  Finally, all the humans moved off- planet just to get away
from them.

Does anyone remember the author?

ARPA:   <jeffh@brl>
UUCP:   {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Sep 85 1050-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #374
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 22 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 374

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asimov & Varley (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission &
                         Star Wars (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1985 14:56:39 PDT
Subject: New Asimov Robot book
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

The Fall 1985 selection for the Science Fiction Book Club is:

"Robots and Empire" by Isaac Asimov.  This is a sequel to Robots of
Dawn and does indeed begin a link between the Robot novels and the
Foundation ones.  It takes place 160 years after Robots of Dawn.

Alan

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many spoilers
Date: 19 Sep 85 03:04:53 GMT

    "Press Enter _": novella (about 25000 words), written by John
Varley.  First appeared in the May 1984 issue of ISAAC ASIMOV'S
SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE.  Reprinted in TERRY CARR'S BEST SCIENCE
FICTION OF THE YEAR (#14), 1985.  Hugo nominee, Nebula winner.

    WARNING: The following review completely gives away the plot of
"Press Enter _".  You are strongly encouraged to read the story
first.  Carr's "Best #14" is a good anthology; I've already
recommended it elsewhere.  "Press Enter _" is the book's first
story, about sixty pages.

    Let me say something right here about the typography.  The last
character in the title is supposed to be a blinking block cursor.
Oddly enough, none of the books that make reference to the story
manage the blinking.  I can't even manage the block, so I've
substituted a underline (that's what my cursor looks like).

    With "Press Enter _", Varley again proves himself a master
wordsmith.  He puts one sentence down after another, and the next
time you look up, it's fifteen minutes later, and there's nothing
you want to do so much as finish the story.  Good stuff.

    There are six characters in the story.  Two are cops.  Two stay
offstage (in life, anyway).  And two are survivors of a couple of
wars in Asia.

    Victor Apfel is fifty years old.  He was a prisoner of war
during the Korean "police action".  A head injury and attempts at
brainwashing left him an epileptic.  He lives alone, in a small
house in southern California he inherited from his parents when they
died in 1968.  It looks like a time capsule from the fifties.  The
only change Victor made was adding a large bathtub - after Korean
winters in a POW camp, he's never felt warm.  (There's a neat couple
of lines or so about veterans and POWs: "We got a taste of what the
Vietnam guys got, later.  Only for us it was reversed.  The G.I.'s
were heros, and the prisoners were .  .  .")  He'd survived, and he
continues to survive.

    Lisa Foo also survived.  She was born in Vietnam in 1958.  Her
mother was half Chinese and half Japanese (the latter from "a Jap
soldier of the occupation" in 1944).  Her father was half French and
half Annamese.  ("Annam", later called "Central Vietnam", was even
later split between North and South Vietnams.)  Her mother died when
she was ten, killed by one side or another.  (Oddly enough, Victor's
parents died the same year.)  At the ripe age of fourteen, an
American soldier gave her an apartment and taught her to read
English.  When Saigon fell, she fled to Cambodia.  She survived two
years of horror in the camps there, then escaped to Thailand.  From
there, she got to the US at about age seventeen, picked up degrees
in computer science from MIT or Harvard, and possibly Berkeley or
Stanford, and set up her own consulting firm.  A well respected
hacker at twenty-five (which sets the story in 1983, by the way, as
a final bit of arithmetic), she's called in to investigate a murder.

    The cops can be described quickly enough.  One, Hal Lanier, is
actually a programmer for the LAPD, and a friend of Victor's.
There's also a Detective Osborne (inside joke there?), who tries to
investigate the murder of "Charles Kludge".

    Patrick William Gavin was about fifty at the time of his death.
He was a computer programmer in the fifties and sixties,
specializing in computer security: making it impossible to, say,
dial up a bank computer and rob it blind.  In 1967, he told enough
computers that mattered that he was dead.  For sixteen years, he
lived as "Charles Kludge", supporting himself by breaking into
computers and looting them.  The computers he'd programmed had been
left with "trapdoors" he could enter.  Other computers, he assaulted
with brains, patience, and special purpose computers.

    The sixth character has no name, never appears in the story, and
kills three people.  More on this one later.

    (Note: If you haven't read this story yet, but are beginning to
think you'd like to, stop *now*!)

    I described the characters in that much detail for two reasons.
First, I wanted to figure out just what happened when.  Second, I
want to claim that of the three threads of the story, the romance
between Victor Apfel and Lisa Foo is the most important, in terms of
words and energy invested.  It's also the one that affected me most.
The other two plots are an exploration of how "Kludge" (and Lisa)
hacked, and the mystery of the sixth character, including Kludge's
murder.

    There's not a lot left to say about the romance; Varley tells it
well.  The sequence (friendship, sex, love) is maybe too common, but
one reason it's used a lot is that it works.  As they get closer and
closer together, they share more and more of their experiences, and
both characters are drawn more and more vividly.  Good writing.

    The bit with hacking was pretty well done, too.  Naturally
enough, Victor doesn't know anything about computers (this is
completely in character), and isn't too interested in them (ditto).
He follows the logic just enough to educate the reader, but also
just enough for him to understand what his new love is doing.  All
the jargon seems to be genuine Hacker, and most of the descriptions
make sense.  In my informed opinion, Varley overly respects the
power of software that can automatically break into a system; I get
the impression he read Verner Vinge's TRUE NAMES, and took the
metaphor of the Other Plane too literally.  Some details are
improbable: "He left informants behind, hidden in the software.  If
the codes were changed, the computer ITSELF would send the
information to a safe system that Kludge could tap later."  Wouldn't
it be easier to leave a "trapdoor" code in the software, one that
Kludge could always enter though?  (Varley's description might
conceivably fit an encryption scheme.)  Another description of
something that sounds good, but probably isn't real: "there's a lot
of very slick programs out there that grab an intruder and hang on
like a terrier."  So far as I know, it doesn't work that way; a
security system can detect or kill an intruder, but can't "fight" in
any meaningful way.  All in all, the descriptions of hacking (and
hackers) are refreshingly close to the mark, without once using the
word "hacker".

    But the last plotline, of the unnamed character and all the
murders, has problems.  The sixth character in the story is a
program, or a gestalt of many programs running on many processors.
Call it "Daemon".  Ironically, "Kludge" may have helped create his
own murderer.  He did some work for the National Security Agency,
which Varley all but names as Daemon's owner; they certainly had
reason to be interested in him.  He also did work in artificial
intelligence, trying to network lots of home computers together
until the number of connections is enough to reach "critical mass",
and the whole mess comes self-aware.  So far as I know, this idea
was first published by that little-known computer scientist, Robert
Heinlein, in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.  Heinlein's "Mike" makes
more sense than Varley's Daemon.  Mike had a lot of capabilities
we'd label advanced "artificial intelligence" today.  Today's
software can neither reach such limits nor transcend its
instructions.

    But granted Daemon's existence, I can't understand its power.
It can control "a carrier wave that can move over wires carrying
household current", and uses this to hypnotize people.  It made
Kludge and Osborne blow their respective heads off, and got Lisa to
modify a microwave oven and cook her brains.  It only gave Victor a
major seizure.  Victor recovered, removed all the wiring and
electrical appliances from his house, and worried if Daemon "could
come through the pipes".

    The science in most of Varley's science fiction stories (e.g.,
"In the Hall of the Martian Kings", the Gaea trilogy, and all of the
Seven Worlds series, including "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank",
"Gotta Sing, Gotta Dance", and THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE) is biological.
In many cases, particularly in the Gaea trilogy (TITAN, WIZARD, and
DEMON), biology replaces electronics.  Tour his worlds, and you'll
see a symbiotic creature that can serve as a human's spacesuit (for
as long as they both shall live), a "space habitat" that dwarfs
anything mankind has planned for L5 that's actually a gigantic
being, cloning and memory transfers as the basis for life insurance,
kidnapping, and an interesting alternative to a safari.  Different
kinds of transcendence keep cropping up, too.  The symb/human
"pairs" are two individuals a little less than a human schizophrenic
is.  Gaea is to some extent just one of the intelligences in the
body of the same name, but is the entire collection in some very
profound ways.  Even Avram Fingal becomes more than just a
personality trapped in an electronic cage.

    But Varley's fall from "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank", through
Heinlein and Vinge, getting a thick coating of the stuff of TRUE
NAMES, ends up in a crash.  When Fritz Lieber wrote "The Man Who
Talked With Electricity", he got away with electricity as an entity,
but by writing it as a tall tale, and you didn't have to believe it
all.  Varley leaves you with the image of malevolent energy
attacking a house like the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, all but rapin'
our women.  (Come to think of it, all three victims had guns.  Why
did Daemon shoot the men and mutilate the woman?)  I don't care if
it's carrier waves, I don't care if it's computer graphics
(programmed how?)  generating a hypnotic image, I don't care if it's
battery-powered Ewok dolls - I say it's spinach, unpalatable and
indigestible, and I say to hell with it.  There is a pact between
writer and reader, and the terms are verisimilitude and the willing
suspension of disbelief.  Varley nobly held his part up for nearly
nine-tenths of the story, but when he dropped it, he dropped it hard
and far, and one of the things that got squished was my disbelief.
Granted, he's treading on my turf here (well, personal computers,
not hacking), and I'm more sensitive to flaws.  But how high do I
have to suspend my disbelief when the mystery, the Big Secret Behind
It All, is built on a framework of fairy dust and cobwebs?

    (Avid Varley haters will be reassured to know that once again,
the smartest, most powerful, most dominant character in the story is
a woman.  People who object to this should be bound, gagged, and
force-fed Pamela Sargent's "Fears" by half a dozen tag-team
feminists.)

    John Varley has written a hell of a story or two in "Press Enter
_".  This is perhaps the best love story to be found in SF this past
year.  This is a pretty good tale of contemporary computer hackers.
This is a terrible nightmare, not "terrible" as full of terror, but
"terrible" as "lousy".  The result is a fatally flawed story,
dammit.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 18 Sep 85 02:19:20 GMT

mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>I'd feel sort of an obligation to try to break the
>spaceship/time-travel stereotype. To that end, how about John
>Varley's THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION.  This is one of his best works
>-- perhaps the finest and most moving novella ever written. What's
>more, it is the title piece in a really first-class collection of
>SF novelettes and story stories.  All the stories are very
>accessible to casual readers; you don't have to have a background
>in SF cliches or history.

The only quibble I have with it is that Varley tends to deal with
very adult and/or sexual images and themes, sometimes rather
graphically (never in an obscene obligatory manner, though). Some
groups of people prefer not to handle these kinds of work, and
shouldn't be handed them unnecessarily.

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 85 13:42:13 PDT (Thursday)
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication (#366)

>From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>  A duplicate isn't satisfactory?  Don't you know that the average
>atom in the body only stays there a few weeks?  Only a small
>percentage of the you of a year ago still exists.

I remember when my 9th grade biology teacher told me this.  It seems
to be a common belief among high-school science teachers.  But look
at it this way: if "the average atom in the body only stays there a
few weeks" (let "a few weeks" = a fortnight), then one would have to
replace half his body mass twice a month, with most of the
replacement mass coming from food.  For a person of average mass,
say 80 kg, this would require eating and ABSORBING 20 kg of food a
week!  While eating 20 kg a week (about 5 lbs a day) isn't
unreasonable, absorbing that many molecules is ridiculous.  Most of
what we absorb from food is glucose, vitamins, some amino acids, a
few nucleotides, and water.  The rest of what we eat is roughage.
So I really can't believe that a human could eat enough to replace
an appreciable proportion of its body mass even in a few months.
I'm sure there is some amount of turnover in some of the more active
structures (muscles, bone marrow, skin, blood), but I can't believe
that the atoms in my brain cells or in my DNA molecules are that
volatile.

Any molecular biologists out there care to tell me what I'm made of?

Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa>

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: lightsabres an "inferior" weapon?
Date: 19 Sep 85 17:57:58 GMT

Another point about the superiority of lightsabres that I have not
seen mentioned: Remember the battle against the walkers on Hoth?
There, Luke used his lightsabre to slice open the armor of a walker
that the blaster bolts could not penetrate. This is direct evidence
that the lightsabre force-blade is stronger than the bolts from even
large "artillery-size" blasters. (You could justify this, probably,
by citing the limited range of the force-blade, and saying it traded
distance for power.)

Will

------------------------------

Date: Fri 20 Sep 85 09:09:31-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #367

> Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi
> knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it.  Far
> more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his
> (her?)  sword.

And, from a previous posting that I'm too lazy to find, words to the
effect of ``blaster bolts go so slowly that you can almost walk away
from them.''  Sounds like a fast person could move a (virtually
massless) sword to catch them.

Since they are so slow, they don't sound like either energy or
normal projectile weapons.  Perhaps they're something really
eccentric, like some plasma wrapped in a magnetic field.  Or perhaps
a large kamikazi mosquito with a force field.  (Then the use of the
Force to deflect them would be mind control, which is probably a lot
easier. 8-)

> (Boy, does all this seem silly.)

But isn't it a lot more fun than fighting about DHALGREN?

Bard, whom the Force is _not_ with these years.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Sep 85 0932-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #375
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 375

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Friedman & Niven &
                        Smith & Varley,
                Television - Star Trek Question,
                Miscellaneous - Price Increase &
                        Matter Transmission (2 msgs) &
                        Nepotism (2 msgs) & Time Travel &
                        Bars & Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt)
Subject: Re: Black Widowers
Date: 16 Sep 85 00:44:00 GMT

Although I'd have to dig out my Black Widower books to give you more
evidence, I think I have at least one leg to stand on when I say
that at least some of the BW stories are SF.

One of the greatest, if not the greatest, editors of science fiction
of all time, John W. Cambell, Jr., responded thus when asked to
define Science Fiction:
                "Science Fiction is what Science Fiction Editors
buy."  Please correct me if I have the source of that quote wrong,
but I would like to suggest that, Since Shawna McCarthy and George
Scithers were both SF editors, and of the first new SF magazine to
stay afloat in years no less, the BW stories which appeared in IASFM
are SF.  As F&SF is one of the oldest SF magazines still in
business, the BW stories they bought would also qualify as SF.  I
will admit that I was grossly incorrect on the number of BW stories
which were SF.
                                orstcs!richardt

------------------------------

Subject: The Hammer and the Horn
Date: 20 Sep 85 10:00:21 PDT (Fri)
From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa

The Hammer and the Horn is a new book by Michael Jan Friedman.
First the surface details: it's a paperback, 297 pages; no
typographical errors, no annoying spoilers on the back cover; superb
cover art by Rowena.  So far so good.  The plot of the book concerns
Vidar, a bona-fide Norse God (a bastard son of Odin).  Many
thousands of years before the book opens, Ragnarok was fought, and
the gods won, but at great cost.  Vidar was one of the few
survivors.  Since that time, he has been living on Earth (Midgard).
By the time the 20th century rolls around, he is living in Woodstock
and working as a sculptor.  He is more or less happy with his life.

Suddenly he gets a call from Modi, another survivor of Ragnarok.
Modi is in trouble and needs help.  Reluctantly, Vidar helps him,
and is thereby launched right into the middle of what looks to be a
new Ragnarok.

The ending is a cliffhanger, so obviously this is the first book in
a series.

This book is strongly reminiscent of Zelazny's Amber series - too
strongly, some might say.  I don't think so.  For one thing, the
norse sagas were one of the source-legends that went into Amber, so
of course there are similarities.  For another thing, Amber itself
was a higher-quality ripoff of Phillip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers
series, so it's only poetic justice that Amber gets ripped off in
turn by a higher-quality clone.

Anyway, I liked the book a lot, I recommend it to anyone who likes
hard-edged fantasy, and I eagerly await the continuation of the
series.

Jef

------------------------------

Subject: Niven's State
Date: 20 Sep 85 14:05:03 PDT (Fri)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        The only other novel of the State is the recent 'Integral
Trees'.  One day, this book will be followed by it's sequel, 'The
Smoke Ring'.  'A World Out of Time' takes it's first couple of
chapters from Niven's short story I can't remember the title of (
'Rammer'? ), and there are a few other short stories set in the same
universe.  Look at the bibliography Niven put in the back of 'Tales
of Known Space' for an extended listing.

                Dave

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 85 18:50:23 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: L Neil Smith and Alexander Hamilton

Not too long ago, there was a message about a new L Neil Smith book.
The title is actually "The Gallatin Divergence", not "...
Connection".  More interestingly, there was a comment about Smith's
portrayal of historical characters, which one assumes referred to
the sexual hi-jinks ascribed to Hamilton in the book.

It turns out that the real Alexander Hamilton was actually involved
in a sex scandal.  We do not know the physical details of his
dalliances, so it is impossible to confirm (or discredit!) Smith's
conjectures.  However, there was quite a row about it at the time.
The implication by Smith that Hamilton's sexual and political
proclivities went hand in hand is *not* unhistorical: There is a
surviving letter by John Adams claiming that Hamilton's excessive
ambitions were due to "a superabundance of secretions."

JoSH

------------------------------

From: oddjob!matt@topaz.rutgers.edu (Matt Crawford)
Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many
Subject: spoilers
Date: 20 Sep 85 19:42:03 GMT

Paul,

Maybe I didn't read the story very closely, but I did not draw the
conclusion you did about the murderer.  It was only the surmise of
the non-technical Victor Apfel which declares the murderer to be a
program and the method to be a mysterious "carrier wave".  When I
read the story I supposed that humans were behind the whole thing
(although using a lot of computer resources) and that the victims
were hypnotized by means of their CRT's.

Matt            University      crawford@anl-mcs.arpa
Crawford        of Chicago      ihnp4!oddjob!matt

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1985 10:41:13-EDT
From: jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: Settling Star Trek argument....

I'm sure you all remember the following ST scene:

     Near the end of the episode, Kirk is broken up after losing one
     of the few women he actually fell for. Spock & McCoy come to
     check up on him; he falls asleep, which gives McCoy a chance to
     lecture Spock about how great is this thing called love which
     Vulcans will never understand. McCoy then leaves, & Spock shows
     that he DOES understand (at least to some degree) by going over
     to the sleeping Kirk, doing a quick mind-meld, and saying,
     "Forget."

Touching scene, eh? But in which episode did it occur? Here at the
office we've narrowed the choices down to two:

     "The Paradise Syndrome" -- The Enterprise crew finds a
     transplanted tribe of American Indians on a remote planet; Kirk
     loses his memory, lives with the tribe for a while, & REALLY
     falls for an Indian girl by the name of Mirumanee (or something
     similar).  By show's end, she's dead, along with their unborn
     child.

     "Requiem for Methuselah" -- Our Heroes encounter an Earthman
     named Flint, who turns out to be nearly immortal, & who's lived
     for >2000 years, having been, along the way, Rembrandt, Mozart,
     and/or other assorted greats. He uses Kirk to awaken emotions
     in a female android he's built as a companion. Kirk falls for
     the girl, but when he & Flint fight over her, it's too much for
     her, and she dies.

So, Trek gurus, can you help out? Are we close, or did the scene
happen in a completely different episode? Our voting is currently 1
for "Paradise," 3 for "Methuselah."

Send responses to "jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA"; I'll summarize to the
net if you wish.

Much advance thanks,
                       Jeff Rogers
                       jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off!
Date: 19 Sep 85 18:15:17 GMT

Of course, there are some of us around that bought books in the 50's
or so that believe that 35 cents is an elegant sufficiency for a
paperback book price...

I seem to find plenty to read at the library, by buying books for a
few cents each at yard sales and book fairs & trading those in at
used book stores to get specific items I want, and by getting stuff
from the paperback-exchange rack here at work. (Every workplace
ought to have one of those latter -- even if your organization's
library isn't interested, or you work at a place with no library,
you can start one yourself. Just bring in a dozen books and stack
them somewhere with a sign saying "Take some -- leave some" or the
like. There are actually some fools out there that *throw away*
books after reading them! If it is easy enough, those people will
participate too, and bring in stock for exchange.)

Anyway, if more people were like me, and didn't pay the insane
prices that are asked these days for paperbacks, the price levels
would stay down, and the publishers would be forced to cut costs to
keep them there. Anybody who pays list price for books is part of
the problem, not part of the solution...

Will

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 85 09:04 PDT
From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication

To all who are currently embroiled in this discussion:

I suggest that you read "Where am I" by Daniel Dennett. This is a
paper that is directly applicable to the problem at hand. I think
that it (and other related articles) can be found in "The Mind's I"
by Hofsteader and Dennett. I will try to find my copy and verify
this over the weekend.

>>Dave

PS There is also a SF short story in "The Mind's I" by Stanislaw
Lem. It is quite good.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 12:55 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: transporters

The unofficial official explanation for how the Enterprise's
transporters work is that they convert matter to energy, zap the
energy somewhere, and then convert the energy back to matter, *not*
by scanning your body for information content, blasting you, and
then making a new one at the other end, as Blish unfortunately
explained in _Spock Must Diet_.

Given this, is it still the same you after beaming down?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 12:31 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Nepotism

While it is true that Fritz Leiber, Sr. was an actor, it is also
true that Fritz Leiber, Jr.'s son, Justin, has written sf.  He has
at least one novel alone and (I think) one novel written with his
father.

I can't think of any other parent-child sf pairs, but there are
quite a few husband-wife pairs, with separate careers or in
collaboration.  Off-hand:

   L. Sprague de Camp & Catherine de Camp
   Joan Vinge & Vernor Vinge
   Joan Vinge & Jim Frenkel (Bluejay Books)
   Spider & (once) Jeanne Robinson
   Betty & Ian Ballantine (Ballantine Books)
   Damon Knight & Kate Wilhelm
   Lisa Tuttle & Charles Platt (or whoever it was she married)
   C. L. Moore & Ed Hamilton   (ditto)
   Don & Elsie Wollheim (DAW Books.  Now daughter too)
   Paul & Genevieve Linebarger (as Cordwainer Smith.  About half
      were written by PMAL by himself, and half with his wife.)
   Carol Emshwiller & Ed Emshwiller (famous 50's artist as Emsh, now
      artsy filmmaker)

   Isaac Asimov & J. O. Jeppson (sp?) (this may not count, as it's
      not clear that her book would have been published had she not
      been married to him)
   me and my wife Leslye

Many other such couples, esp. from Clarion.  Please expand my list.

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: Writing offspring of writers
Date: 20 Sep 85 15:29:30 GMT

wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes:
> [Remarks about SIDNEY'S COMET, an SF novel by Brian Herbert, son
>of Frank...]  By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over
>-- parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other
>SF writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child
>who writes SF professionally?
>
>The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF is Fritz
>Leiber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not a writer...]

How about Sir Fred Hoyle and his son Geoffrey? I seem to recall
that they even collaborated on one novel.

Joel Upchurch
Perkin-Elmer Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Two questions on "Back to the Future"
Date: 14 Sep 85 23:23:38 PDT (Sat)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@uci-icse>

> I have an interesting question: Is November 5 .... an important
> day for time travel?  Both _Back_to_the_Future_ and
> _Time_After_Time_ (about H.G. Wells and Jack the Ripper) use that
> day ...

The only importance I know of for 5th November is that it's Guy
Fawkes Day in Britain, the anniversary of the attempt of a group of
traitors led by Fawkes to blow up Parliament, which attempt was
foiled, I believe, by the Beefeaters.  As the verse says,

        Remember, remember,
        The 5th of November:
        Gunpower, treason, and plot.

Though as for what "Time after Time" used, I couldn't care much
less.  I found it a rather silly and forgettable movie, notable only
for the appearance of Mary Steenburgen, whom I have enjoyed very
much in her more recent films.  So I'm not really prepared to put
much significance by what it used or said.

Does the date have some relevance to sf that I'm missing?

   Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Subject: Humans, non-humans, non Terrans, and Bars
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1985 15:40 EDT

 Mr. Miller writes,
> What makes us think that any other species out there would have
> any interest at all in a bar?  Granted, they seem to be fairly
> universal earth customs, but why would an alien species have a
> desire to get inebriated?

 Neither social concourse, nor meeting at the local bar, should be
considered a purely Human, or even Terran behaviour trait.

 Human beings are basically social creatures. Sure, one can find
examples of people who are loners, but they are rare and even the
most resolute can seek comfort in knowing that he or she is but one
of billions. Most other animal species on earth are social; ants,
bison, lions, wolves....... and on and on ad nauseum.

 I don't think that it is unreasonable the we might more closely
resemble an intelligent creature from another world, then an ant, or
a bee. Although the ants and bees are very different from ourselves,
they are still social, and probably have their own analog, to our
'watering hole'.

With respect to the alchohol, it is simply a mind altering drug. It
is not unreasonble to believe that other intelligent species have
their own 'poison'. The desire to 'get away from it all', may be a
common trait amoung sentient life forms.Aside from that, we've all
seen the way a Cat reacts to Catnip. You don't even have to smart,
or a biped, to enjoy a 'buzz'.

------------------------------

From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch)
Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo...
Date: 20 Sep 85 15:19:10 GMT

>From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
>     I have not named the author and title as these are
>indeterminate.  The front cover claims it to be "Rogue Queen" by
>"L. Spraque de Camp".  The edge of the binding, on the other hand,
>declares it to be "Rouge Queen" by the same mysterious and hitherto
>unknown author. Opening it, you find that while the title 'Rogue
>Queen' seems to be intended, the book was allegedly written by our
>old friend L. Sprague deCamp.
>
>    Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless?  This is
>definitely the worst I have ever seen.

I agree that this one is a lulu.  Isaac Asimov has also had some
problems with getting his name spelled correctly on some of his
books.

Joel Upchurch
Perkin-Elmer Southern Development Center
2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031
{decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Sep 85 0957-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #376
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 376

Today's Topics:

               Books - Card & MacAvoy & MacCaffrey &
                       Niven & Varley & Some Reviews &
                       Story Request & Request Answered,
               Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) &
                       Matter Transmission (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Orson Scott Card recommendation
Date: 18 Sep 85 15:16:00 GMT

Some postings on this net had alerted me to keep an eye out for
works by Orson Scott Card, whom I had never read before.  By a
stroke of serendipity, the October issue of F&SF has a novelette of
his in it and it's excellent.  (Damn.  I left the magazine at home
and can't quite remember the title.)

It's a post-holocaust story, where the holocaust is truly
incidental.  The story focuses on a crippled teacher and the
economics of a marginal farming town.  The teacher eats food raised
by the rest, even though he takes no part in its production, because
"he tills a far stonier and more barren ground."

The story investigates his relationship with his students and the
community as well as his inner wrestling with a set of massive
handicaps.  Moving without being maudlin or didactic.

Thanks to those who pointed in the direction of Card in the first
place.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON
Date: 21 Sep 85 19:56:00 GMT

>Why do people like TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON?  I just read it
>recently, and to my mind, it's a mediocre mystery story, with a
>not-terribly- interesting computer tie-in, and a small amount of
>poorly explained mysticism to justify the "fantasy" label.

I am not terribly fond of the book, but it was enjoyable.  The basic
plot could have been from a ROCKFORD FILES and the fantasy, albeit
only a minor part of the story, was well done.  The reason I liked
it is the writing style.  MacAvoy writes clear, simple prose.  She
doesn't throw in 35 weird names and concepts.  I will get around to
reviewing JHEREG soon.  It has some good prose too, but it requires
too darn much memory to keep straight what is happening in what
ultimately turns out to be a simple story.  MacAvoy is for me easy
reading.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Anne McCaffrey as a person
Date: 19 Sep 85 16:22:42 GMT

My wife and I both enjoy Anne McCaffrey's books.  From her writing
style it seems she is a "humanist", i.e. concentrates on feelings,
emotional aspects of people, and human interpersonal relationships.

This makes me wonder if her personality is being reflected in her
stories.  In other words, is she a warm, loving human being,
interested in and interesting to others?

 Anyone in netland know Anne personally?  I'd be fascinated to know
what kind of a person she is.

Don Chitwood
Teklabs
Tektronix, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 23:23:08 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Niven's 'state' future history
To: nep.pgelhausen@AMES-VMSB.ARPA

>From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
> The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new universe of the
> State is *A World Out of Time* -- which I also found very
> enjoyable.  As a vision of what might happen on Earth over the
> next few *millions* of years, it was fascinating!

"The OTHER novel"???  Please somebody tell me, what is the FIRST?

  _A_World_Out_of_Time_ is the first.  _Integral_Trees_ is the
second.  _Integral_Trees_ was serialized in 1983 and 1984 in Analog,
and was published in paperback in 1984 by Del Ray.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many
Subject: spoilers
Date: 19 Sep 85 23:27:14 GMT

The characters in there all had computer-related names in common.
You all must know what "foo" is as in "Lisa Foo" and "foobar".
Furthermore, we have a guy called Hal- and you all must remember
2001: A Space Odyssey.  And Kludge is explained, and of course we
have an Osborne in there.  It's quite intentional, I think...
                                                Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

From: tekecs!patcl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Pat Clancy)
Subject: Brin, Sagan, etc.
Date: 20 Sep 85 23:12:41 GMT

> I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who didn't like
> Startide Rising. Can't figure out why it won the Hugo and Nebula.
> If this was the best of the year it must have been a very bad
> year.

Agreed! Startide Rising was awful, with one of the most
unconvincing, most cliched, and generally worst depictions of aliens
I've come across in some time.  Possibly tied for "most overrated"
with Gene Wulf's (sp?) extremely bad novel "Shadow of the Torturer".

I just got a copy of Carl Sagan's new sf novel, "Contact". So far
(about 1/4 through) it's quite good. As you might expect, the
science is accurate, and explained in some detail; far more so than
other works in the "sf by scientists" genre that I've come across
(eg.: Forward's "Dragon's Egg" or anything by Scheffield). And as an
additional bonus, he proves to be a good novelist (convincing
characters, etc.).

Another recent "hard sf" (ie., "real sf") novel I'd highly recommend
is Eon, by Greg Bear.

Pat Clancy, Tektronix

------------------------------

From: inuxd!keen@topaz.rutgers.edu (D Keen)
Subject: Re: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance
Date: 20 Sep 85 18:23:01 GMT

There is a "classic" short story whose title and author will, I'm
sure, be supplied by some other netter in which a group of
non-humans and humans of various evolutionary types are searching
for the origin of humanity as a class.  The gist of the conclusion
is that humanity was a pest aboard a large and temporally different
races spaceships, ala, the rat, aboard sailing ships.

Don Keen
AT&T something or other

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right?
Date: 20 Sep 85 19:41:00 GMT

dorettas@iddic.UUCP (Doretta Schrock) writes:
>  Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of
>SF coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the
>speed of light (i.e., no hyperspace, LucasDrive [the drive that
>allows

_Tau Zero_ by Poul Anderson is excellent, although the (sublight)
ship does leave our solar system.

_The Forever War_ by Joe Haldeman. Special relativity is a star
performer in this one.

There are lots of others, of course, but I assume you want
spaceflight to be important. In her Hainish novels, Ursula LeGuin
keep people at sublight speeds, but she breaks other rules.

I can't think of others off the bat.

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax  or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman
BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA
US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall,
Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853
Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work)    (607)-272-7750 (home)

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET
Date: 20 Sep 85 23:21:00 GMT

And you were so close, too! Fritz Leiber (Jr.) has a son, Justin,
who has had two books come out recently, *Beyond Rejection* and *The
Sword and the Eye*. The first is SF, but I'm not sure about the
other.
                                                Wombat
                                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Writing offspring of writers
Date: 18 Sep 85 09:10:58 GMT

wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes:
> [Remarks about SIDNEY'S COMET, an SF novel by Brian Herbert, son
>of Frank...]  By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over
>-- parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other
>SF writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child
>who writes SF professionally?
>
>The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF is Fritz
>Leiber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not a writer...]

I can think of only a couple offhand.  Kurt Vonnegut's son Mark
wrote a book about his nervous breakdown, called _Eden_Express_ I
think, in the early '70s or thereabout.  Vonnegut Sr. appears to
Mark in a dream in one poignantly funny section set in a nuthouse.
It was a fine book.  I haven't seen anything by Mark V. since.

William Burroughs had a son, who died some time recently.  Under the
name William Burroughs III, he published two novels: _Speed_ and
_Kentucky_Ham_.  He was good!  _Speed_ appears to be slightly
fictionalized autobiography.  WSBIII sounded to me like a young,
innocent, idealistic WSB Sr., only on speed and psychedelics AND
heroin, instead of just opiates.  _Speed_ is an amusing and
hair-raising picture of the teen-agers' drug world in the late '60s
or thereabouts (all these dates are approximate because I haven't
looked at the books for a while).  _Kentucky_Ham_ is also about
addiction.

Lastly, Vladimir Nabokov fathered one son, Dmitri, who used to study
at the Longy School of Music in Cambridge, MA, where I worked
briefly & had access to the student files.  I happened to read a
charming letter from Dmitri, written in 1967, saying he wouldn't be
able to come back from Europe unless he were granted a scholarship.
I believe he became an opera singer.  However, he has also
translated into English, both in collaboration with VN and alone I
think, a substantial number of the elder Nabokov's Russian novels
and stories (early works produced before VN's emigration to America
and "love affair with the English language").  Dmitri N. is VERY
good.

And under Miscellaneous: In the mid-Sixties, in NYC, I met Tim
Marquand, son of J.P. Marquand, who was a fairly well-known American
writer in the '40s and '50s.  Tim was a jazz musician.  He lived
across the street from the Five Spot, where Thelonious Monk was most
often working in those days, and Tim hosted a great many jam
sessions for a spectrum of musicians ranging from cutting-edge
geniuses to earnest beginners like me.  He appeared to have a nice
income and no particular aspirations, but I didn't know him well.

Judith Abrahms
{ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 85 03:14:19 EDT
From: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: matter transmission

you're damned right i wouldn't go to sleep.

all these arguments could apply equally well if this wasn't a
duplicate of me, but just a simulation.  someone kills me and puts
in my place a robot that acts exactly like me that they've created
by observing me.  no one can distinguish the robot from me.  it's
identical, to external observation, to the previous me.  it can even
have been programmed to think it's always been me and has all my
memories.  (Perhaps they got them out of my dead brain.)  now your
claim is that since this robot is indistinguishable from me, i
should volunteer for the procedure.  what's the difference between
this simulation and a copy made on a molecule by molecule basis?

again, i'm not arguing over whether anyone, including me, would be
able to distinguish between the original and the copy.  i just claim
that the original has past into a state that can only be described
as complete, irreversible death.

let me say it one more way.  imagine that we can make the copy
without damaging the original at all.  according to the arguments
i'm hearing, if you shoot the original through the head, it will not
experience death now, since there is a copy of it.  this is plainly
ridiculous.

look, i'm sorry i'm shooting down this neat, often used plot device,
but it's simply absurd.  i'll believe matter transmission is
possible.  and i'll believe matter duplication is possible.  but you
can't convince me that matter transmission via duplication is
possible.

------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Sep 85 01:39:43-MDT
From: Ron Fowler <RFOWLER@SIMTEL20.ARPA>
Subject: Matter transmission and consciousness

I think the heart of the question about the continuity of
consciousness (or "self") in re-creation of the information contained
in the brain must await a more concise definition of "consciousness".
The subject seems to be avoided in the popular science literature,
but it's fun to speculate.  I've personally been exposed to two very
different schools of thought:

1) The metaphysical view: the "self" is an extra-physical
phenomenon, and, though existing within the framework of the
material universe, is somehow independent of it.  Consciousness
cannot be defined in terms of anything that has a physical existence
in the universe, and each "self" is unique.

2) Consciousness is nothing more than a configuration of information
contained within a human brain, and will eventually be described
(and by inference, replicated?) fully in terms of information
theory.

I've seen little evidence for the first viewpoint, and most of the
arguments in its favor seem to be a little tainted by the obvious
desire to express something as personal as the "self" in mystical
terms (to be expected, I suppose, since it's a mystical viewpoint.
But how can a metaphysical theory be quantized in a physical
universe?  Hard to nail it down ... ).

The latter view seems to have more reliable credentials: for
example, physical damage to the human brain can cause drastic
personality modification; drugs reacting chemically within the
brain have the same effect.  This seems to imply that a sufficiently
sophisticated information science can duplicate (and create anew)
human personality.

Maybe the two ideas can be combined: if all the information in my
brain were precisely replicated within the guts of a computer, and
that computer had outside-world sensors, would my "self" begin
receiving information from both my own "sensors" *and* the
computer's?  A tantalizing question ... move the computer to the
surface of Mars, fire it up, and I can close my eyes and take part
in another world, without ever leaving my comfortable chair by the
fireplace ... make 50 copies of the computer, and drive me insane
with an overflow of sensory input ...  "play" my information into an
"erased" brain in another body or 2, and I can be in two places at
once.

On the other hand, a "self" may not be unique, and these copies may
feel no more "duality" than fraternal twins.

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: matter transmission and duplication
Date: 21 Sep 85 19:32:45 GMT

>How do you know that your personality DOESN'T die every night, and
>get recreated imperfectly from backups in the morning?  Imagine
>this were really the case; say it had just been discovered, and you
>read it this morning in Science magazine.  Would it matter?  Would
>you avoid going to sleep, since it WAS death to do so?  I can't see
>as how it would make ANY difference, so why should I object to a
>perfect copy replacing me?  As long as the change over were done
>gracefully.

If I knew it was happening every night, then my life would have only
been a few hours long and that it would end within hours.  Then
dying probably would not matter much to me.  But if it were the
first time I was dying and being recreated, I would avoid it like
death.  Which is what it is.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Sep 85 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #377
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 377

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Critics (4 msgs) &
                    The Problems Of Science Fiction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Critics and how DID we form our dislikes for them?
Date: 16 Sep 85 14:24:05 GMT

I see an important point in Steve Zeve's comments about the
anti-critic bias.  FOR THE MOST PART, those with no formal training
in literature (say, those who have taken few university level
courses) have only been exposed to "backyard" critics: high school
teachers, peers, and that mouthy Arts major down the hall in
residence.  FOR THE MOST PART, those same people have only been
exposed to national or international writers: those who have managed
to interest a major publisher.  Is it any wonder that the writers
come out looking better than the critics?

I mean no disrespect to high school teachers and the like -- in my
five years of high school (we go to grade 13 in Ontario), I had two
good English teachers (and three mediocre ones) which is a pretty
good average.  But the writers we read have gone through a more
extensive culling process than the critics we listen to...unless we
happen to find ourselves in advanced literature classes where we can
read the work of national or international level critics.  Given the
basic high school introduction to literature, we are hardly likely
to pick up a book of good criticism.

The only other place we could possibly see high level criticism
would be in newspaper and magazine book reviews.  I will certainly
concede there may be book reviews that treat SF in a competent way
-- the New York Times Review of Books has been mentioned several
times on the Net as one such publication.  However, the Times is
hard to find in Southern Ontario.  I can choose one of the local
papers (which are just as bush league as many high school teachers)
or some newspaper/magazine which has more national coverage.
Unfortunately, the newspapers/magazines that I can get my hands on
do not pay any sort of attention to SF.

As an example: the Toronto Globe and Mail (which is as close to a
national newspaper as Canada has) published a review a few months
ago of a new line of quality paperbacks that Penguin was bringing
out, featuring Canadian short story writers.  The writers were
W.P.Kinsella, Leon Rooke, Audrey Thomas, and Spider Robinson.  The
Globe assumed that any literate person would have heard of the first
three (highly unlikely outside Canada, and not so likely inside) but
felt they had to go to great lengths to explain who Spider Robinson
was.  To them, SF was some little-read literary ghetto that needed
an explanation.

Conclusion: the critics with which we have the most experience are
not in the major leagues; the writers are.  Of course many of the
writers are bad, but they are bad by major league standards (not to
mention that they have been edited by major league editors).  Is it
any wonder that some people develop a knee-jerk response against
critics?

                   Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: The Literature of Ideas
Date: 16 Sep 85 13:36:48 GMT

> Item: Counterexamples to the assertion that SF is stylistically
> flat: The Demolished Man, Golem 100,...

Golem 100?  you call it style, I call it absolute unadulterated
trash.  Yuck, ick, wash my eyes out with soap.  I did, however, like
The Demolished Man.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

Subject: Art ??
Date: 20 Sep 85 14:11:59 PDT (Fri)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>

        Have any of you folks read the Gormenghast trilogy, or parts
there of ?  I'll reserve further discussion until I hear more.

                        Dave

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 85 17:18:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Art ---

"Art" is a subjective judgement.  Everyone (I assume) has a set of
things which he/se considers "art".  Much of our personal set
coincides with the sets of the majority of individuals in our
society, thus establishing a set of things that most everyone
considers "art".  Incidentally establishing an *appearance* that
there is a general definition of "art".  To attempt to define this
non-existent general definition will get you nowhere.....someone
will *always* disagree with some point or another.

So why don't we stop arguing that each other's definitions are not
valid and accept them for what they are -- personal preference?

Richard Hartman
max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART X (FINIS)
Date: 19 Sep 85 21:28:09 GMT

               THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY
               PART X: A Prescription For The Future
                          by Davis Tucker

Yes, science fiction has problems. Everything does. Some are
serious, some are trivial, albeit irritating (such as my pet peeve
about stupid puns, especially in titles). The past nine installments
didn't even scratch the surface, but I hope that at the very least
they stirred some serious thinking about whether or not these
problems can be solved, or if they are problems at all. No one who
is interested in science fiction should accept complacency, or begin
to pat himself or herself on the back for a genre well done. It's
very easy to get in a rut, and very difficult to get out of one. But
a valid point can be raised against these essays, that they have
been soley concerned with illuminating the problems of science
fiction, not with possible remedies. The question remains - "What
must be done"?

We gain nothing in moving forward by extolling our virtues. We must
eradicate our faults and our weaknesses, ruthlessly, or we must
accept them and live with them. Ignoring the problems that are in
science fiction, or acting as if they're strengths, will only lead
to further degradation of the field.  Close your eyes and imagine
bookshelves of Hobbits and rayguns and magic swords and slave
wenches and computer nerds and one-dimensional personalities.
Imagine Robert Asprin (or whomever you would like to substitute) as
the guiding light for fantasy writers of the 21st century, and
Spider Robinson as the new Isaac Asimov (okay, it *is* a step up,
but not much). In other words, take a moment to extrapolate the
field of science fiction, which spends so much of its energy on
extrapolation. What will science fiction be like in twenty-five
years? Will it even exist? What form will it take, and how can we
influence that form now, so that it will improve?

Even the most diehard Star Trek fan will agree that the genre could
stand some improvement. But what is that improvement to be? Some
would have the field move strictly back to its roots, to the Great
Idea and hard science and predictions. Others would have it move
into the mind and the surreal, become experimental in all ways, and
cast off the chains of its past. Both are doctrinaire and dogmatic.
What is important, most important to the continued survival and
flourishing of science fiction is that the quality of the writing
improve. Good writing can be about anything; great writing could
probably be about nothing - not that this is necessarily admirable
or desirable. Hoary plot devices must be discarded, wherever they
occur.  Bad dialogue needs to be weeded out with napalm. Overused
characters need to be put out to pasture, right, Gandalf? A breath
of fresh air is needed, in the sense that the field has become too
resistant to experimentation, especially by new authors. Old authors
need to draw on their familiarity with the genre to branch out; if
anyone has leeway to experiment and expand his or her literary
horizons, it's an established writer. Science fiction has an amazing
resiliency with this sort of thing. Heinlein, for all his faults,
went out on a limb with "Stranger In A Strange Land" and it paid
off. Silverberg's renascence with "Majipoor Chronicles" and "Lord
Valentine's Castle" is another example. Gene Wolfe, though he still
is a "new" author, surprised everyone with the popularity of "The
Book Of The New Sun". The readership of science fiction, fans and
casual readers, need to consciously try out something different now
and then, or they will ignore the greatness that is at the very
heart of the concept of science fiction, the willingness to
experiment and attempt more than seems possible. There was a time in
the field, in the late Sixties, during the days of the New Wave,
when discovering a new author, a new way of writing, and a new slant
was very important to many readers. Now, unfortunately, it seems
that too many are satisfied with sequels and trilogies and
fluff-filled fantasy by formula authors. Quality of writing *seems*
to be running a distand third behind predictable characters and
fast- moving plots.

Great writing, quality writing, does not mean fancy sentences and
big words and heavy symbolism. Writing is not an end in itself, and
neither is it merely a means of telling a story. Quality writing
means attention to details like plot twists and avoiding loose ends,
characters who live and breathe and talk like they were people, not
cartoon characters. Real people don't expostulate for pages, like
Jubal Harshaw or Lazarus Long, and real people aren't archetypical
heroes and villains. Quality writing means both a simultaneous
ability to make the reader totally forget he is reading, if he
chooses, or to allow him to realize how much the act of reading is
working on his experience. The basics of building believable human
beings and believable situations and intricate plots and detailed
societies have been around for years, and are well defined and
understood by most authors, be they science fiction or mainstream.
James Clavell worked just as hard to make "Shogun" believable as
Herbert did with "Dune". Motivation, of a society or an individual
or a destiny, requires some kind of internal consistency, unless the
novel is one that is deliberately inconsistent, such as some of
Robert Sheckley's or R. A. Lafferty's work, or much meta-fiction.
Plot resolution also requires care and especially in science
fiction, that the author avoid the many cheap devices that science
fiction's imaginative freedom has strewn in his path to entice him
from the straight and narrow road of correct and consistent
plotting. Quality is *not* that elusive, it is not unattainable by
even a merely competent writer; we do not ask that all books written
be "Heart Of Darkness". It *is* work, and it *is* personal pride,
and it is always easier to go half-way than the whole distance, in
writing as in any effort. But the extra work required yields a much
more satisfactory result.

I'm not saying that every science fiction novel should be like "The
Book Of The New Sun". But the quality that is so apparent in that
work should be a goal for every science fiction novel. Sensitivity
to subject matter and a refusal to take the easy out in a plot
situation should be encouraged.  Puns should be outlawed for ten
years until the next James Joyce appears and decides he wants to
write science fiction. As a concrete suggestion, I think more works
by South American surrealist authors, of whom there are many, should
be published in science fiction magazines and by science fiction
publishing houses - and don't condemn it as boring literature, or
highbrow, because much of it is exuberant, interesting, and
well-written.  Hard science fiction needs to take a long look at its
traditional insensitivity to its characters and its dialogue.
Exposition, so necessary to science fiction, needs to become better
integrated into story lines. It gets tiring to read page after page
of characters talking at each other, explaining their society or
some wonderful concept or marvelous invention. The sort of thing
Gardner Dozois called "The Great Steam Grommet Works Of The Future
Travelog", where the reader gets a guided tour of the marvelous
future. These sorts of things can be revealed during the course of
the story, in subtle and less obtrusive ways.  Science fiction could
use a better understanding of its symbolism, of the ideas and
metaphors which are being manipulated to provide resonance and
meaning beyond what is written. The field needs to indulge in that
great imaginative sweep that is afforded it, like no other genre,
that freedom to say and do and create anything. No other literary
field can send a man back in time to confront his father, no other
field can turn a man into a machine, no other field can destroy
planets and minds and entire global societies. These situations are
wrought with frightening symbolic implications, deep psychological
conflicts, and incredible mythic resonances. They are filled with
enormous potential for exciting new directions (as cliched as that
phrase is, in science fiction). Mining and exploring the vast
reaches of the genre's freedom of expression will require effort,
and discipline, and willingness to experiment, much more so than
science fiction has done in its past.

I love science fiction. We all do, I think. And we want to see it
improve, and expand, and capture more readers, and pay its authors
more money, and to mature and grow up from its beginnings without
ignoring its past. If I have been harsh on its failings, it is only
because of the hope I hold for its awesome potential as literature.
I myself would like to see a time when science fiction is no longer
considered merely a "genre", but a large part of the literary scene,
as biographies and spy novels are considered now. When the field
becomes viable for any and every writer who chooses to write science
fiction, when the definition of what is and is not science fiction
is of clinical and critical unimportance. There is no field in
Western literature which can afford as much freedom and imagination
and room for great writing as science fiction. There is no artform
today which has so much unexplored potential, not music, not art,
not photography.  I honestly believe that science fiction stands
poised at a very important crossroads in its development, a point at
which its popular appeal has risen to new heights, where it is
finally gaining some grudging acceptance in academic circles, and
where it is finally reaching that stage of maturity from which great
art in any artform can arise. Events in art and literature often
move at a snail's pace for years, and then there will be a sudden,
intense flowering of genius. I think science fiction is on the brink
of that heady precipice of greatness, and I want nothing more than
for it to leap over it unafraid and with all the necessary skills to
maintain itself as viable and popular. Remember that no artform can
remain static and survive, and even if it moves in some direction,
that not all of those directions will guarantee any survival. Poetry
used to be widely read and published and appreciated, as little as
50 years ago, but it is fast becoming, unfortunately, a dead artform
for a number of reasons. It may still resurrect itself, but the
lesson is clear. Classical music is hardly being composed at all
anymore - you could count on one hand the number of new composers
with a substantial body of work being performed by orchestras around
the world.  Science fiction *can* survive, I think it *must*
survive, but it needs to take a long, hard look at its accepted
tenets and its preconceptions and re-evaluate its role. And with
luck and hard work it can become much, much more than what it is
today.

I think we all have enjoyed the discussions that have been spawned
by these essays, from substantial insights into the nature of
artistic appreciation to spleen-venting, from impassioned, reasoned
defenses of favorite works to investigations of the author-reader
relationship, from agreements and disagreements to the consensus
that is sometimes reached. I hope no one has found these essays
offensive, once the dust settled, and I hope no one thinks that I
have no respect for his or her opinion, for all that I may have
disagreed with it. It's been fun.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Sep 85 1013-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #378
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 378

Today's Topics:

               Books - Kelly & Killian & Kingsbury &
                       Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                       First SF (2 msgs) & STL travel,
               Miscellaneous - Star Wars (2 msgs) &
                       Scientology & Nepotism (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: PLANET OF WHISPERS by James P. Kelly
Date: 20 Sep 85 15:04:39 GMT

The jacket reads:

  The three-thousand-year-old thearchy which rules the planet
  Aseneshesh faces certain disaster as the Chani civilization is
  racked by famine and rebellion -- a famine caused by the alien
  "messengers", who are willing to trade grain for Chani blood, and
  nothing else.

  Young Curin is ordered by his master, the Lord Protector of the
  Thearchy, to carry a secret message to the distant highlands. It
  is a perilous journey in the best of times, and for an unworldly
  scholar, it is certain death.

  But Curin's adventure among the lionlike people of his planet is a
  revelation, and he will learn, ultimately, that nothing is as he
  believed it to be: not his world, not his master, not his
  mission...not even his god, not even himself.

As frequently happens, the jacket description makes the book sound
more interesting than it really turns out to be. The main characters
in the book are nonhumans, and they deal almost exclusively with
each other. This type of story (that is, with little or no human
involvement) is rather rare in SF; unfortunately, the author isn't
especially convincing. (For an instance of where it works is Lee
Killough's THE MONITOR, THE MINERS, AND THE SHREE.)

The story starts out interestingly enough but it never picks up
steam.  I never got particularly involved with any of the
characters, and the only interesting concept wasn't really
developed.

I give the book 2 stars (mediocre).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian
Date: 20 Sep 85 11:51:08 GMT

The Canadian patriot in me feels its necessary to point out to the
world that Crawford Killian is one of the many fine Canadian science
fiction writers (others include this year's Nebula winner William
Gibson, Spider Robinson, Donald Kingsbury, and Wayland Drew.

rjs

------------------------------

From: cxsea!zuker@topaz.rutgers.edu (Hunter Zuker)
Subject: Re: More from the backlist
Date: 17 Sep 85 17:43:29 GMT

> Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (SFBook Club) Rating: <none>
>
> I'm specifically NOT rating this book (that is not a rating of
> zero, but no rating, a small but semantically important
> difference). This is another book that I stopped halfway through,
> and while the book is well written, I simply found myself unable
> to tolerate some of the strong and rather graphic concepts it was
> dealing with.
> . . . The book is rather graphic, quite intense, and doesn't pull
> its punches. If you can handle the subject matter, I think you're
> in for a treat, but this book is definitely not for the weak of
> heart or full of stomach.

All true, yet there is a lot about love and affinity in this book.
I felt it was a well balanced book.  I would highly recommend it for
those who enjoy reading about well thought out and consistent
cultures.  It's one of my favorites.

Hunter Zuker
Computer X, Inc.
Kent, Wa.
{{uw-beaver!ssc-vax}|mnetor}!cxsea!muaddib!zuker

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Catching up on the backlist
Date: 19 Sep 85 02:44:18 GMT

                      *** SPOILER WARNING ***

I disagree somewhat with the notion that Merlin "had" to be paranoid
because he "was an Amberite".

This is patently false.  Merlin was raised in the Courts of Chaos.
If one looks back at "The Courts of Chaos" one discovers that the
Princes of Amber are all extremely chaotic in their personal
behavior, almost classically so.  They maneuver for power, they
kill one another, they manipulate, connive, and most things are at
the whim of the moment.

The society in the Courts, on the other hand, is the core of Law at
the heart of Chaos.  They are extremely honorable, chivalric, having
invented and holding to incredibly complex codes of honor.  Merlin
was raised in the midst of this.  OF COURSE he is naive.  Even his
exposure to Amber was only enough to make him realize that he might
have to worry about his assailant being one of the family.

It took the Princes of Amber years to learn the paranoia they needed
to recognize plots under every bushel.  Merlin is just a child yet,
by comparison.

Also, Merlin is a Nerd.  He focuses so intensely on the
accomplishment of his interests that he completely fails to consider
their consequences.  This is possibly a family trait.  It isn't
completely believable that he is a nerd, but he DOES fit the
profile.

I WAS rather bothered by the "cute" way that it took so long to make
it clear that Frakir is a strangling-cord.  That was annoying, and
clumsily handled.

One other thing bothering me.  If Amberite physiology makes one
strong enough to heft and throw around casually, items weighing ~150
lbs, then it would make one MUCH faster than the "olympic class"
athletics which Merlin and Luke engaged in through school.

Otherwise, not a bad book, but I want to know where the "green
crystal cave" came from.  If it was one of those islands of reality
which was swept up by the Pattern, then I can sort of see it.  If it
is in Primal Amber or in Chaos, then why cannot standard magic work
there?  And if it is in Shadow, then the Logres ought to be able to
get around it.

Hutch

------------------------------

From: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle)
Subject: Zelany's Trumps_of_Doom
Date: 20 Sep 85 19:44:46 GMT

        After reading Trumps_of_Doom for the 2nd time I feel like
asking questions and putting forth my own ideas.
        There appears to be a legion of agents aiding Merlin.  Dan
Martinez may be one of them.  Whose are they?  I feel that they
aren't Corwin's, but are agents of Chaos.  Random didn't have any
idea and most of the Amberites were in Amber and appeared to out of
touch with the Shadows.  Also George Hanson, I think he is also from
Chaos.  Merlin felt that he was familiar in some way.  Probably
someone he knew from Chaos.
        The burning question, where in Shadow is Corwin?  At several
times in the book it is mentioned that he's now crazy, also other
things.  I feel that he's crazy due to Amber blood having been
spilled on the pattern that he created.  I also think that Luke
would be responsible for this act and probably grapped Corwin and
then found out about Avalon's pink powder through Corwin.
        Enough rambling for now.

Charlie
ARPA: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS.EDU
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!speegle

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 85 19:37:23 EDT
From: Bob Webber <WEBBER@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Good First SF and first of SF-LOVERS

>Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #368
> ...  Her opinion of science fiction was extremely low.  I asked
>her to read "Mortal Gods" which was a 3 page short story by Orson
>Scott Card, and her reaction was quite favorable.  I think that for
>those who have poor opinions of the quality of SF, Card is a very
>good writer.

first: it is probably unethical to push sf on people who think it is
junk.  afterall, you don't want little old ladies in supermarkets
trying to get you to read the national enquirer, do you?

second: Orson Scott Card is a very good writer for people who have a
high opinion of sf.  people that have a low opinion of sf should be
encouraged to read all the IS SF ART? debates that have occurred on
sf-lovers since sf-lovers started *(footnote). remember, the
principle is: reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour.

* anybody know when sf-lovers started (i assume a different
birthdate on USENET vs ARPANET, was the marriage immediate?)?

BOB (webber@red.rutgers.edu)

p.s. i started on Have Space Suit Will Travel (RAH).  in chess, it
has been noticed that the growth of a player's understanding of the
game tends to follow the chronology of chess history.  perhaps it is
best to start with 50's (40's ?) sf and then grow toward the 80's.
of course there are still writers writing 50's sf (which confuses
things, but isn't necessarily bad).

p.p.s.  hand someone a harliquin romance and when they come back
telling you it was a lowsy book, you say: Of course, after all, it
isn't SF.

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@topaz.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: First SF book -- an "anti-suggestion"
Date: 21 Sep 85 23:15:53 GMT

Another anti-suggestion: don't give somebody a book similar to what
they're used to in some other genre (including "mainstream" and
"literary").  They will only see the similarities, but not the sf
aspects, because they won't understand those.  So they'll only see
part of the book and will interpret it as a flawed book of whatever
genre they're used to.

John Quarterman,
UUCP:  {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:
  jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@ut-sally.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Sep 85 01:04:42 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Slower than light space travel
To: iddic!dorettas@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

> From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
> Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of SF
> coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the speed
> of light (i.e., no hyperspace, LucasDrive [the drive that allows
> you to go anywhere in the Universe in 20 minutes], etc.).

  Well, most of the works of Arthur C. Clarke, Gregory Benford, Lee
Correy (aka G. Harry Stine), Alexis Gillilan, Jerry Pournelle,
Charles Sheffield, John Varley, and James White concern space travel
in the relatively near future and as such do not involve FTL (faster
than light travel).
  I am someone bothered by the rarity of non-FTL interstellar travel
stories.  Especially since I strongly believe in the possibility of,
and importance of, interstellar flight but not in FTL.
  My favorite non-FTL interstellar epic is the trilogy
_Young_Rissa_, _Rissa_and_Tregare_, and _The_Long_View_ by F.M.
Busby (does anyone know of anything else by this author?)  (Is this
a pseudonym for Robert Heinlein?  Very similar style.)  (Actually,
they do invent FTL near the end of the last book, but it is not
important to the plot.)
  Also, _Tau_Zero_ by Poul Anderson, which is an a class of its own.
  Actually, I can't think of any others, except _Universe_ by Robert
Heinlein.  But that is part of his future history, which later
includes FTL.
  Can anyone think of any others?
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Blaster aim in STAR WARS
Date: 19 Sep 85 17:11:57 GMT

psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes:
>Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi
>knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it.  Far
>more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his
>(her?)  sword.

This one I don't buy.  The Jedi react to where the firer is aiming,
not to the blaster bolt itself.  (Yes, where they are really aiming,
not where they are trying to aim.)

Frank Adams
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

From: leadsv!sas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart)
Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons)
Date: 18 Sep 85 22:19:25 GMT

chris@leadsv.UUCP (Chris Salander) writes:
>According to rumors I have heard, if you removed the stormtrooper's
>armor, you would see that they are all CLONES!
>
>(And that Obi-Wan is really OB1, original body one!)

But I thought Stromtroopers came from the Acadamy. Biggs, Luke's
best friend graduated from the acadamy, and he told Luke he was
jumping ship to join the rebelion (You have to have read the book).
I thought Biggs was going to become a Stormtrooper on the ship. The
only problem with this is that Luke was also going to go to the
Acadamy. Later when busting into Leia's cell, she memtions that he
looks too small to be a Stormtrooper. So if Luke was to short to be
a Stormtrooper, and Stromtroopers came from the Acadamy, and Luke
was going to go to the Acadamy, what type of Imperial Personel does
the Acadamy churn out.
                                                Scott A. Stewart
                                                LMSC - Sunnyvale

------------------------------

Date: Sat 21 Sep 85 20:53:53-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #370

RJS, discussing Scientology:
> Postings on scientology are wholly appropriate to the science
> fiction net, as anyone aware of both that religions history and
> the history of sf is aware.  Fact: scientology was created by a
> ... [Several facts follow]

Where does one discover these things?  Everything I know about
Scientology is by hearsay.

Bard

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET
Date: 19 Sep 85 22:09:00 GMT

wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes:
>By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over --
>parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other SF
>writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child
>who writes SF professionally?
>
>[For that matter, I don't recall hearing much about the children of
>*any* SF pros. Do Clarke, Heinlein, Zelazny, or most others of the
>SF "big-names" have any children? (Individually, not all together!
>:-) If they do, I never heard of them... Most male writers seem to
>give an impression of bachelorhood, or never mention families,
>except for wives, in the little autobiographical blurbs or story
>introductions they write now and then. I don't recall a female SF
>author discussing family, either.

Ursula K LeGuin has (I believe) two daughters.  Elizabeth, who lives
in Berkeley most of the time, recently had a daughter herself.
Elizabeth is a concert violist and an exceptional musician.  She
claimed once to have no interest in writing as a profession.  With
two writing parents, and a grandfather who was (I believe) also a
writer, one would imagine that it might be rather tiresome
competing.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 19:18:14 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: SF writer parent-child groupings

>From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
>Anybody know of any other SF writers whose parent(s) were also
>SF Writers, or who has a child who writes SF professionally?
>
>I don't recall a female SF author discussing family, either.
>
>The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF
>is Fritz Lieber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not
>a writer.

In the edition I read of MZ Bradley's _Bloody Sun_, a
semi-autobiographical essay is included, which gives some details of
her family.  I have heard about, but not seen, a book written by her
son, [first name not recalled] Zimmer.  It is purportedly set in
some version of the Darkover universe.  A gift for writing is not
synonymous with a gift for story-telling.  Further, I don't think
that writing, story-telling, or whatever you choose to call it, is
something that runs in families.  Said families probably tend to be
more articulate than most, but the Muses are idiosyncratic and
highly personal demons.
                                 Eudaimonically,
                                 Paula

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Sep 85 1034-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #379
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 379

Today's Topics:

                Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Sherrell &
                        Tolkien & Female Authors (2 msgs) &
                        Story Request Answered,
                Miscellaneous - Typos (2 msgs) & Star Wars (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 18:37:48 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Planetary maps on the Ringworld

>From: Tom Wadlow <taw@s1-c.arpa>
>Paula Sanch points out that the Protectors induced large-scale
>vulcanism on the Pak home planet to get metal to build the
>evacuation fleet.  Thus, the Map of Pak might be unrecognizable.
>...
>If they are going to "decorate" the Ringworld with Maps of
>Earth, Kzin, etc. (which surely must be built from recorded
>information), a Map of Pak (before the fall) is not unreasonable.

Good reasoning, except: Those maps which were explored were
populated with samples of the indigenous species.  Would one thus
expect to find _Homo habilis_ on that map (assuming it is a map of
the Pak homeworld)?  Another native species is the 'Tree of Life'
virus-infected tuber.  Which would automatically induce the creation
of protectors from the original genetic stock.  Wouldn't those
protectors then fare forth into the vasty spaces of suitable
environment and exterminate the (equally changed as H. sapiens from
the parent stock) inhabitants?

I don't see that kind of sentimentality in protectors, that they
would want to recreate, or memorialize, the homeworld.  All the
other maps were of (relatively) nearby planets.  Perhaps it is a map
of the Trinoc planet?
                                   Postulatively,
                                   Paula

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 19:54:48 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-L Vol 10: #367

>From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA (R. Hartman)
>> The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new
>>universe of the State is *A World Out of Time*--which I
>>also found very enjoyable.
>
>"The OTHER novel"???  Please somebody tell me, what is the
>FIRST?  _A_World_Out_of_Time_ came out a while back ...
>The above message seems to imply that there is at least one
>other novel in the State series, could someone supply the
>title for me....I would be interested in reading it.

I think you may have missed the fact that the poster was discussing
_The Integral Trees_, which is definitely in the same universe as _A
World Out of Time_.  AWOoT was first serialized in *Galaxy* (of fond
memory) in the mid-seventies, I think.  Certainly, as you state,
that is "a while back".  Of course, IT was also serialized--in
*Analog*.

Somehow, I've never seen the State universe as part of Known Space.
There is no indication of a program to terraform planets in the
Known Space universe; rather, they sent unmanned probes to specific
systems, to explore for habitable worlds (remember what happened
when the probe explored Plateau?) and signal back whether a
colonizable planet were there.  If they had sufficiently dependable
systems to use unmanned probes, then why would there be a need for
corpsicle explorers?  And why would they choose to salvage the
personalities of the corpsicles, rather than whatever reusable
organs they had. Remember, the Earth of Known Space was big on organ
banks, and not interested in personalities.  There would doubtless
have been some referendum which would have mandated the salvage of
body parts, not personalities; and the World Government was
answerable in some fashion to the people. Also, there was no mention
of a class of non-citizens. The State did not appear to be
answerable to its citizens, and had outcastes, where the World
Government would have simply salvaged those people for the organ
banks.

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE SPACE PRODIGAL by Carl Sherrell
Date: 20 Sep 85 15:22:48 GMT

The jacket reads:

  Philip 733-2209-1, pilot for the Federated League, defied his
  government's oldest law to return to an Earth abandoned centures
  before...and Earth transformed...an Earth whose inhabitants had
  become masters of magic.

  What he found branded him a criminal and started a war--a battle
  between deadly technology and equally deadly illusion--that
  neither side could hope to win.

  He could not forsee that an enemy stronger than either side was
  soon to reveal its terrifying powers. Or that Earth and the
  Federated League would join foces in a desperate struggle against
  a foe whose very existence threatened to end all human life
  forever!

Don't be deceived. The book's a lot better than the jacket makes it
look.  The story starts out with the following setting. A large
number of people left earth before a looming catastrophe could take
place. These folks travelled to another solar system and raised a
new civilization, one predicated on genetic manipulation and
suppression of emotions.  Meanwhile, the earth was wracked with
upheavals of various sorts, but many people survived and developed
some "magical" abilities. The folks on earth remember that the
others left and have some ill feelings toward those who fled. Earth
hasn't been visited by the genetically superior people for hundreds
of years, and the planet is still off limits. The breeding program
hasn't worked perfectly, however, and a number of the space farers
are discontent. One, Philip, uses the opportunity of a scouting
mission to visit Earth.

Enough of the setting. I found the story very engrossing. There are
a number of interesting themes, and there's always at least two
things going on at a time. The characters seem real and mostly
sympathetic.  The blend of fantasy and technology is fairly good.

The pocketbook is 512 pages long. My only serious complaint is that
the author tried to do too much in one book. He had enough good
material for three books, and I found the development at the end of
the book to be a little thin compared to what had gone before.

I heartily recommend this book, giving it 3.5 stars (very very
good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Sep 85 12:44:00-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: LOTR and Fantasy

Paul Chisholm's thesis seems to be that "fantasy" became popular
after the publication of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings in "1965".

Unfortunately, LOTR was actually published ten years earlier: the
first volume in 1954 and the other two in 1955, by George Allan and
Unwin.  It was first distributed in the USA in 1956 by Houghton
Mifflin.  The work was reviewed in the Herald Tribune, in The New
York Times, and in The Nation, all in 1956.  And almost nothing
happened.

Maybe it just wasn't "steam engine time"?

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: Sheri Tepper and Patricia McKillip
Date: 18 Sep 85 20:49:41 GMT

Sheri Tepper has a wonderful gift: with a few sketches of her
authorial pen she draws an entire culture/civilization.  The world
of the *True Game* is drawn so.  And I cannot but admire her "chasm"
civilization that Mavin visited in book 2 of the Mavin Manyshaped
saga.  God!  Bridgers, Maintainers, etc.; giant roots reaching down
past the Lost Bridge, all the way to the bottom; cutting roots on
each side just the right length to reach one another and be grafted
together to form a span; she has a wonderful imagination!

But description alone is not sufficient to tell a great tale (Isn't
it interesting that some of the pioneering SF stories were nothing
more than descriptions of the strange, with little if any character
development).  Sheri also has the gift to show some of the internal
motive/drive/development of her characters.

In recent discussions on the net, several have pointed out that many
of their favorite authors are women.  Risking being called a male
chauvanist, I believe that women *in general* are better at
describing/understanding the internals of a character, and of
showing character growth, whereas men are better at detailing action
and describing how-things-work.

Sheri delves into the inner workings of her characters very well,
and so does Patrica McKillip.

McKillip in her Hed trilogy *and* in her Forgotten Beasts of Eld
manages to evoke the most haunting scenes of solitude that I've ever
read: i.e., the protagonist in "Hed" shapechanged into an elk-like
creature and spent a winter in the mountain valleys, and I could
*taste* the solitude of his existence (nought but the vast silence
of the empty wind); and in "Eld" the sorceress spent long days alone
atop her mountain in the airy quiet.

Perhaps some day my characters will grow and change to the same
degree as theirs do...  it's not that my characters don't develop
throughout my tales (action is my forte), it's just that Tepper and
McKillip are so very good at what they do.

Perhaps my collegue Brust would care to comment.

Dennis L. McKiernan
ihnp4!cbuxc!dim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 18:14:52 EDT
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Cherryh vs. McCaffrey

>> Give me McCaffrey any day, that way I won't have to think
>> too much.

(continues with spirited defense of Cherryh)

>From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
>McCaffrey may be simplistic but for the most part at least I feel
>her characters and plots are much more interesting.  I always read
>about Cherryh's books and think they sound like they should be
>good.  ... I am invariably disappointed.  While Cherryh's worlds
>are fairly imaginative, a societal description doesn't carry the
>book for me.  My general feeling is that the characters are, if
>anything, more simplistic than McCaffrey's and much less
>interesting.  The plots are usually dry and not gripping at all.
>...  This is, of course, all purely personal judgements and
>preference.

It is immensely gratifying to find that my opinion is shared by
others.  I have tried to like Cherryh, and it is simply beyond me.
She tackles ambitious subjects; perhaps her problem is that they are
*too* ambitious, i.e., beyond her capabilities.  Like others in this
forum, I must read and assimilate correctly some rather large
volumes of scientific literature.  One tends, in such circumstances,
to wish the reading one does for relaxation to be readily accessible
(the proverbial 'good read') on first reading, and my personal
preference is for a book that will supply further insights on
re-reading.  I admit I do not expect McCaffrey to *improve* with
re-reading, but I assert that she *usually* entertains me, and for
that I am grateful.
                                   Preferentially,
                                   Paula

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Boring Aliens
Date: 20 Sep 85 22:00:00 GMT

The author's name is George Alec Effinger.  And I agree that it's a
highly hilarious little twirl, although I don't know about either
race appearing boring.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo...
Date: 20 Sep 85 11:47:30 GMT

The first ACE edition of Spider Robinson's TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY
CASH proudly exclaims:

        TIIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH
rjs

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo...
Date: 29 Sep 85 07:34:09 GMT

> From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
>     Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless?  This is
> definitely the worst I have ever seen.

How about Belmont Books on their 1967 book TIME UNTAMED?  The
binding says:
        TIME UNTAMED - Azimov, Bradbury, others

He wasn't exactly an unknown author even then.  (He gets misspelled
in another Bluejay Book also, on the title page on SHERLOCK HOLMES
THROUGH TIME AND SPACE, as "Issac Asimov".)  But misspelling both
the author's name *and* the title on the cover must be a new record.

This isn't an on-the-binding error, but Ace Books, in their
"Thieves' World" books, has an introduction which has 7 typos on one
page--and they've re-used it uncorrected in several of the books!

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.rutgers.edu (john)
Subject: Re: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blas
Date: 18 Sep 85 16:47:00 GMT

>> Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with
>> his hand in TESB?  What kind of armor is he wearing?  Also notice
>> that it didn't stop a light saber!
>
>I think that was artistic license: Showing you that ole Darth could
>deflect blaster bolts by the power of the force.  Don't need no
>light saber anymore.

  If I remember right he used his right hand to stop the blaster
shot in TESB. That same hand was shown in ROTJ to be a mechanical
replacement so we can assume that it could be armor. He may have
even guessed that Han would fire and could have replaced his whole
arm with a dummy one made of solid neutrons. Nothing is too good for
a Dark Lord and it would put a healthy fear in the stormtroopers
that saw this demo.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt)
Subject: Re:Stormtrooper's armor
Date: 16 Sep 85 23:33:00 GMT

>[albeit paraphrased quote]
>why do we see stormtroopers running around in armor on Endor?
>Why not battle fatigues?

I think I can answer this one by drawing a historical analogy:
consider the behavior of the Brtish during the American revolution.
Here we had two basic types of behavior: the natives who were
resorting to guerilla warfare because of lack of numbers, but who
had better tactics; and an old and well established army fighting on
unknown territory *and valiantly attempting to uphold the morale and
efficiency of the troops*.  The British didn't figure out what was
happening for a long while, and didn't figure out how to handle it
until they had already lost.  Now, recast the roles, considering the
Rebels and the Ewoks as the guerillas, and the stormtroopers as the
British.  The Rebels have high morale due to the nature of their
cause and their basic methods (proof: the current Israeli wars); The
Rebels on the ground are famioliar with the territory because the
Ewoks are showing them around; The Ewoks have been maintaining
surveillance and setting traps, but are fighting a slowly losing
battle because of lack of numbers and technology.  The Empire, on
the other hand, has low morale in the first place (proof: current
Soviet *TROOPS*), which is being augmented by dealing with unknown
territory and unfamiliar tactics.  They cling to their armor, which
is effective for ceremonial, morale, and shipboard purposes, in an
effort to maintain morale in a hostile situation.

> given that they are in a dangerous position, why does the Empire
> maintain the shield from Endor?

Three factors seem to be involved.  First, the Empire was slowly
killing off the Ewoks before the Rebels came along.  Second, the
basic perversion of rational thinking which allows planners who
believe that they are impervious to attack to make poor decisions:
The designers of the Death Star were unwilling to believe that it
had basic design flaws [Gee, that sounds familiar...].  So, too, the
people who ordered the Shield control to the ground legitimately
did not realize a threat existed.  Third, the mechanics of the
shield required a planet or large moon. [Lucas seems to like
Earth-type planets around Gas Giants.]  The shield could be mounted
on an artificial asteroid, but would be too vulnerable and unstable.

                                orstcs!richardt
Richard Threadgill
104 S 20th              <-- SnailMail address soon to be changed
Philomath Or 97370

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Sep 85 0900-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #380
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 380

Today's Topics:

           Books - Brust & Dickson & Hubbard & MacAvoy &
                   McCaffrey & McKinley & Peake & Sagan &
                   Tenn & STL Stories,
           Miscellaneous - Typos & Star Wars (3 msgs) &
                   Nepotism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: uwmacc!rick@topaz.rutgers.edu (the absurdist)
Subject: Jhereg mini-appreciation
Date: 23 Sep 85 00:43:53 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
> I will get around to reviewing JHEREG soon.  It has some good
>prose too, but it requires too darn much memory to keep straight
>what is happening in what ultimately turns out to be a simple
>story.

Really?  For me, Jhereg's story (i.e., the plot end of it) was much
better than that of most novels.  A non-spoiler summary is :

    Everyone agrees that Person X is a wart and a louse, and that
the world will be a better place without him:

        Person X has to die.  Otherwise A Bad Thing will happen.
        But if Person X dies ... The Bad Thing will happen.

Our hero is the assassin appointed to cut this Gordian knot.  Brust
plays fair with his puzzle: all the rules of what will cause the Bad
Thing to happen are laid out, and the solution to the paradox is one
that the reader could legitimately have thought of his/herself ...
but almost certainly didn't.

Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC
1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706
{allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Sep 85 22:01:15-PDT
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
Subject: semi-hot flash

Can't believe I haven't seen this here yet...if I missed it sorry..

BUT, for those who have been waiting as long as I have, Gordy
Dickson's THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA has hit the mass market paperback
stands.  NO, I won't spoil it (how can I?  I just found it hours ago
and its nearly 700 pages of very small print) yet we have one small
complaint already...

Silly thing cost 4.95.  Thanks, Ace.  But how could I pass it up!

Doug     (dolson @ eclb.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Sep 85 01:50:22-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Asimov, Hubbard, and a query.

        Today I visited the New York Bookfair, an annual event which
occupies a stretch of midtown 5th Avenue for one day.  There were a
couple notable SF items:

     Asimov was signing his new book, \Robots & Empire/. I didnt get
a chance to talk to him, since the line was long, and my copy was at
home anyway.

     Towards the south end of the fair (I started at the north),
there was a large (~10' diameter) spherical red balloon.  Initially
I thought it was supposed to be a big apple, and thus just part of
the dressing of the fair. When I got closer, I found it was in fact
an ad for L. Ron Hubbard's new book, \The Invaders Plan/. It appears
to be about 500 pages, and the hardback was in the $17-$18 range. A
promotion bookmark I picked up read:

<START OF QUOTE>
      In "Close Encounters" and "E.T." there were aliens that
                          were visible...
                               NOW...
                             Unknown...
                          Unrecognized...
                       they walk among us...
                                 in
                          L. RON HUBBARD'S

                         THE INVADERS PLAN

                     A LITERARY GUILD SELECTION

"On our scale of 1-10 with 10 being excellent, The Invaders Plan
 comes out a 10. It's fabulous!"
                        PAUL THOMAS HUGHES
                        United press International

"An incredibly good story, lushly written, vibrating with action
 and excitement. A gem."
                        A. E. VAN VOGT

"...a big humorous tale of interstellar intrigue in the classical
 mold. I fully enjoyed it."
                        ROGER ZELAZNY

                        THE INVADERS PLAN
                               BY
                         L. RON HUBBARD

                            VOLUME 1
       THE BIGGEST SCIENCE FICTION DEKALOGY* EVER WRITTEN

                          MISSION EARTH
                    RELEASE DATE OCTOBER 6TH

             Available wherever fine books are sold.

*  10 volume work

           (c) Copyright 1985 Bridge Publications Inc.
                      ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
<END OF QUOTE>

     It will be interesting to see what happens to the Hugo ballot
over the next few years if he makes good on the implied next 9
books.

     There was a neighbouring bookstall selling nothing but copies
of 'Dianetics' by the same author.

     On a related matter, I have several times heard it said that at
some point soon before he gafiated and started 'Scientology', (late
40's, early 50's?)  LRH stated, in front of witnesses, words to the
effect that:

"The fastest ways to get rich in this country are to start a
religion or invent a new psychotherapy."

and then went off to do just that.

     This is now part of the folklore of fandom, but I would like to
know if he really did say something to this effect, or at least,
what is the earliest allegation of his doing so. Come on you SF
historians (jmb?)! This is a challenge!

                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON
Date: 22 Sep 85 18:01:39 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>>Why do people like TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON?  I just read it
>>recently, and to my mind, it's a mediocre mystery story, with a
>>not-terribly- interesting computer tie-in, and a small amount of
>>poorly explained mysticism to justify the "fantasy" label.
>
>I am not terribly fond of the book, but it was enjoyable.

Well, I AM terribly fond of the book, mainly because it is a book of
mood and characterization and people. R.A. MacAvoy has evidently
figured out (and this is true of Damiano as well) that you can tell
a good story by simply writing about people well. After the
cardboard that a lot of SF/Fantasy writers have a tendency to use to
prop up their latest technical gimmickry, this is a breath of fresh
air. Consider it a gentle reminder that you don't need a gosh-wow
sword or magic ring or laser blaster to tell a story, as long as
you're willing to give up the part of the audience that can't handle
subtle stories.

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
{decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey as a person
Date: 22 Sep 85 13:18:21 GMT

I don't know McCaffrey personally, but I did have the chance to see
her live at a reception in Toronto put on my Bantam celebrating the
publication of DRAGON DRUMS.  She certainly came across as a warm,
loving human being interested in others.

rjs

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Beauty by Robin McKinley
Date: 29 Sep 85 07:19:14 GMT

> From: Bart <SEARS%hplabs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
> Those of you who liked _The_Blue_Sword_ by Robin McKinley will be
> happy to hear that they have just released _Beauty_ in paperback.

I presume you meant "re-released," since it was first released in
paperback in 1979 by Pocket Books.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 02:03:27 pdt
From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Gormenghast

Although I wimped out in the middle of the second volume, Peake's
style was really inspiring.  The richness of the stuff made me
pause.  I know i will come back and finish it off sometime soon.

Rolling Stone's special on Sting mentioned that he has the movie
rights to Gormenghast.  Gormenghast would make an excellent movie!

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Sep 85 23:49:24 edt
From: mike%bambi@mouton
Subject: Sagan's CONTACT - short review

I've been waiting for this for some time, being a big fan of COSMOS.
The good news is that Sagan can write a fairly good novel.  The
characterization is deft, if a bit heavy-handed, and the plot moves
nicely along.  The bad news is that it isn't as mind-blowingly
interesting as the subject entails.

When I first heard that Sagan was working on a movie about first
contact, I thought it might be everything CLOSE ENCOUNTERS wasn't.
If a movie was made from this novel, it might indeed be that.  But
the novel itself just moves too slowly.  The tone is much like that
in James Gunn's THE LISTENERS - though the earlier book did what I
consider to be a better job (though less detailed scientifically, it
addressed the wonder and probable results of first contact better.)
There are many superficial resemblences between CONTACT and THE
LISTENERS - such as a sympathetic evangelist and a rise of
millenialism.  There's a lot more politics in CONTACT.  (Astute
observers will see a bit of A FOR ANDROMEDA by Fred Hoyle here too.)

All in all, a good read (I'm saving the last 50 pages for tomorrow)
but you may want to wait for the paperback, since the hardback is an
unusually high $18.95.

(One also wonders what happened to Proxmire in the universe of
CONTACT.)

Michael Caplinger
mike@bellcore.arpa
ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

From: cybvax0!mrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz)
Subject: Re: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance
Date: 23 Sep 85 15:42:06 GMT

keen@inuxd.UUCP (D Keen) writes:
> There is a "classic" short story whose title and author will, I'm
> sure, be supplied by some other netter in which a group of
> non-humans and humans of various evolutionary types are searching
> for the origin of humanity as a class.  The gist of the conclusion
> is that humanity was a pest aboard a large and temporally
> different races spaceships, ala, the rat, aboard sailing ships.

In William Tenn's "Of Men And Monsters", the protagonists come to
the conclusion that the best niche for humans is as pests on the
alien conquorers' spaceships.

I highly recommend all of Tenn's SF.

Mike Huybensz
decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 85 08:38:41 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Re: was Einstein right?
From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

  In reply to Mike Sellers' query about stories where humanity never
makes it out of the Solar System, I seem to recall that John W.
Campbell, Jr.'s short story _Twilight_ deals with humanity in the
far future having evolved into mental giants who have no hope
because no FTL methodology was ever discovered. Also, the method
used in Forward's _The_Flight_Of_The_Dragonfly_ to reach Barnard's
Star is definitely slower-than-light, more-or-less current
technology. (This latter book gets my vote for best SF novel of the
last decade, by the way--it's been a long time since I've so
voraciously read a novel all the way through with such an inane grin
on my face...)

  Dave Opstad (Opstad.PA@Xerox.ARPA)

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo...
Date: 29 Sep 85 07:36:07 GMT

Read Anne McCaffrey's introduction to GET OFF THE UNICORN and find
out how the title got changed from "Get [meaning offspring] of the
Unicorn"!
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: leadsv!sas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart)
Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons)
Date: 20 Sep 85 22:10:32 GMT

tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
> The idea of all the stormtroppers being clones of Obi Wan presents
> two difficulties:
>
> 1) we clearly see in the deathstar docking bay that the troopers,
> when lined up, are not all the same height.  I suppose the clones
> could have been raised on worlds with different gravities, but ...
>
> 2) Han and Luke mug two stormtroopers and steal their uniforms.
> Surely they would have noticed if a) the two storm troopers were
> identical and b) that both storm troopers looked like Obi Wan.

I didn't think the author said that the stormtroopers were all
clones of the same person, or that they were even the same clone as
Obi Wan. He implied that the stormtroopers were clones, but they
could be many gene bases to start with.

But this talk reminds me of an article I read from, I think, Starlog
back after EMPIRE. The author was specualating on the many possible
plotlines left open at the end of the 2nd movie and what we might
see in the 3rd.  He talked a bit about the Clone War mentioned in A
NEW HOPE, speculating things like that all Jedi's were made of a
special genetic makeup, and that the old Jedi force was made of many
clones, who fought the bad clones, those who turned to the dark side
for the Empire. One basis for this idea was that in EMPIRE the
emperor was also played by Alec Guiness.

Well, Lucas opened a can of worms with the one little mention of the
Clone Wars, and I sure hope he finally tells us what happened.

                                        Scott A. Stewart
                                        LMSC - Sunnyvale

------------------------------

Date: Mon 23 Sep 85 13:46:20-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Light-sabres and blasters

Maybe light-sabres are more expensive than blasters?  Or maybe it
costs more (money, time, talent) to train people in light-sabre than
in blaster?

Or perhaps light-sabres are more sporting (you can run from them,
sometimes) and not appropriate for the Empire to use.

Or maybe you can learn to use the Force from light-sabre training,
and the Empire doesn't want ten billion grunts running around with
moderate skill in the Force.  Who knows?  Maybe one of them will be
stronger than Darth Vader.

Bard, whom the Force is not with.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Sep 85 22:43:51 edt
From: mar@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: light sabers

All of this talk about blasters and light sabers reminds me of a
design we came up with a while back for making a real lightsaber.
There a couple of problems with this design, but for the most part,
it should work . . .

Start with your ordinary household portable high-energy laser.  Now
you need about three feet of Sinclair molecule chain, and a pulley
that you can wrap it around without slicing the pulley in half.  The
other end of the chain is attached to a perfect mirror about an inch
in diameter.

The pulley is spring loaded so that with power off, the mirror
covers the end of the laser.  Turn on the laser, and the photonic
energy will push against the mirror, unrolling the chain to its
length of three feet (plus an integral number of wavelengths of the
laser).  The laser does not need to be quite as strong as you would
first think, since it's being reflected back into its own chamber
will reinforce the beam.  The slightest bit of parabolic curve on
the edges of the mirror will make sure that the mirror tracks the
beam as you swing it around or push it against things.

I was going to build one, but my Edmund Scientific Catalog does not
list Sinclair molecule chains.  Mr. Niven, where can I get one?

                                        -Mark

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET
Date: 23 Sep 85 19:39:23 GMT

Aren't Joe Haldeman and Jack C. Haldeman III father and son? I
believe they've even written a book together.

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax  or  norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman
BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA
US Mail: Dept Physics,
Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853
Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work)    (607)-272-7750 (home)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Sep 85 0929-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #381
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Sep 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 381

Today's Topics:

          Books - Hubbard & Peake & Zelazny & STL Stories,
          Films - Back to the Future,
          Magazines - Recommendations?,
          Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) & Price Increases &
                  Typos & Matter Transmission (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 85 08:54:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: LRH

At the counter of my local WaldenBooks I picked up a bookmark with
the following information on it:

L. Ron Hubbard is writing a dekology (work of 10 volumes (yes, that
is footnoted on the bookmark itself)) called _The_Invaders_Plan_.

The first work, _Mission_Earth_, has a release date of October 6.

(I may have the dekology name and the book name reversed..who can
tell??)

There are recommendations from Zelazny & A.E. Van Vogt, as well as
someone from UPI.

Regardless of my personal opinions on Scientology, I thought his
recent _Battlefield_Earth_ was a good book, and I am looking forward
to this release. (Although a dekology seems a bit much.....)

I wonder why he destroyed all of his previous SF when he started
Scientology (information gained from previous SF-LOVERS msg.)?

                        -Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1985 09:18:04-EDT
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re: Gormenghast Trilogy

>From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
> Have any of you folks read the Gormenghast trilogy, or parts there
>of ?  I'll reserve further discussion until I hear more.

I read the Titus Groan saga about three years ago.  I never could
decide whether the author, Mervyn Peake, intended the trilogy to be
satire, art, or just depressing.  I thought Peake did a marvelous
job of portraying a "royal" establishment rotting from within.  The
environment he described was in such a state of decay that I could
almost smell the odor.  To me, the books were a study in the
futility of the characters' lives.
     The characters themselves were rather flat, as though Peake
intended each one to personify a certain idea, almost to the
exclusion of any other character trait.  For example, Steerpike was
the ultimate conniver and misogynist.  Titus' sister, Fuschia (what
a name!), was the caricature of a girl lost in her daydreams and
romances.
     On the whole, the atmosphere of Gormenghast, particularly the
castle, made more of an impact on me than the plot.  I found the
tone of the three books to be relentlessly despairing.  I also never
quite got over the feeling that Mervyn Peake was somehow pulling my
leg.
                          Brian M. Clapper

------------------------------

From: ucdavis!ccrrick@topaz.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli)
Subject: Trumps of Doom speculation (the spoiler continued)
Date: 24 Sep 85 07:04:31 GMT

> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in
> fact the gemstone of a ring.  Also Corwin is not dead, but is
> masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much.

Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in
Ganelon/Oberon...
                        rick heli
                        (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 85 09:05:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- STL fiction ---

Among the most memorable I can remember is not entirely a STL travel
piece, but man's first FTL drive.  It is called "Time Fuze", by
Randall Garret.  Originally published under another name.  No
spoilers on this story here.  If people want to read it I can't find
it...I think it is good enough that I will type it in for posting
(or to send, if only a few are interested.)

There are STL drive stories around, although I can't think of any
offhand.  OOPS!  _A_Gift_From_Earth_, Niven.  Known Space did not
have the hyperdrive then.  This story, however takes place only on
the colony itself, not any ship.

_Mayflies_, I forget the Author.  STL colony ship, the controlling
computer was the brain of someone who had an accident.  Covers many
generations.  Good story.

There are many other STL technology stories/novels out there.  Your
search must have been very cursory to not have turned up any.

(Sorry if that sounds like a personal comment, it wasn't meant to be
one....)
                        Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vsmb

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 08:46 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: The town in Back to the Future

I just watched Gremlins which was free with Teen Wolf, and guess
what I recognized?  The town was the same as Back to the Future, but
with some signs changed.  They never gave a really good view of the
clock tower, but the movie theatre he crashed into on his way back
was the same one where Snow White was enjoyed by the little monsters
until they "blowed up, sir".

Just another proof it was a back lot.

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 10:09:47 edt
From: melissa@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: sf&f magazines question

I have only been with this group for a couple of months, so pardon
me if this has been asked before (and send me the answer, please!):

I am interested in subscribing to an sf&f magazine. I know nothing
about any of them, and could use some recommendations. In
particular, how do they differ in content, style, frequency, quality
and price?

Melissa Silvestre
melissa@mit-athena

------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Sep 85 11:30:38-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Literary children

On the subject of parents who write having children who write, and
perhaps rather off the subject of SF, don't forget that Jack Kerouac
had a daughter Jan, who wrote an autobiography called 'Baby Driver'.
It is worth reading as a book, but should anyone out there actually
LIKE Kerouac, they will enjoy it even more because of the insight it
gives into him and his life.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: render@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Children of SF authors
Date: 24 Sep 85 16:08:00 GMT

Justin Leiber (son of Fritz) had a decent sf book out a few years
ago.  I believe that the title was BEYOND REJECTION, and dealt with
the transplant of a dying person's mind into another body.

                           Hal Render
                           University of Illinois
                           {pur-ee, ihnp4} ! uiucdcs ! render
                           render@uiuc.csnet     render@uiuc.arpa

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!akhtar@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price
Date: 24 Sep 85 14:44:00 GMT

A few comments:

i) I'm also disgusted with the price raise. Patronize your local
   library and used bookstore. Libraries round here can get you
   almost any book you want - within reason.
ii) Crown books - well maybe they do save you money for a few
    things, but try going in there and ordering something slightly
    obscure. I would expect that you'll not get very far. Crown
    'bookstores' serve a useful function, but please don't mistake
    them for real bookstores.

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo...
Date: 23 Sep 85 05:52:54 GMT

> The first ACE edition of Spider Robinson's TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY
> CASH proudly exclaims:
>
>       TIIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH
>  rjs

And Spider autographs these as "Spiider Robiinson"

-rel

------------------------------

Subject: matter transmission and personal identity
Date: 24 Sep 85 11:11:33 EDT (Tue)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

S.F. comes closest to philosophy when dealing with artificial minds
and matter transmission.  Matter transmission is one of the gedanken
experiments philosophers engage in when dealing with the problem of
personal identity (what is it?  how does something--particularly a
living, conscious being, retain it's identity over time?).  Here is
a famous puzzle, known as the ship of Theseus:

        The ship of Theseus is a wooden ship.  One day, a wooden
        plank is replaced.  The plank is removed and left on the
        dock.  As the years go by, this happens to more and more of
        the planks, with each plank removed added to the pile, until
        one day, none of the original wood is left -- it's all in
        the pile on the dock.  Where is the ship of Theseus?  What
        makes that boat there the ship of Theseus, as opposed to the
        pile of wood on the dock?

Similarly, what makes you the same person as you were when you were
12 years old?  Probably almost all of the atoms in your body have
been replaced in that time.  Well, you REMEMBER being that 12 year
old...  So is it your memory of being that 12 year old that makes
you the same person?

Enter duplication through matter transmission.  Now you have two
copies (you can even arrange it so that both copies were created in
the same instant, and the original ``destroyed''/``transmitted''.
Both copies remember being that 12 year old.

>let me say it one more way.  imagine that we can make the copy
>without damaging the original at all.  according to the arguments
>i'm hearing, if you shoot the original through the head, it will
>not experience death now, since there is a copy of it.  this is
>plainly ridiculous.
>                               Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU

Well, yes, this argument is plainly ridiculous, but it isn't the
argument that people have been putting forth.  The copy which is
shot experiences death, certainly -- they started being different
people when they stepped out of the matter transmitter/duplicator.
But the original ``person'' is still alive -- that is, there is
still a living, conscious being who remembers being that 12 year
old...

The same arguement applies to recreating a person by recording their
mind and playing it back -- either into a tabula rasa clone, or into
an android or a computer.  If the mind is software, it shouldn't
matter too much what hardware it's implemented in.

This is a conundrum.  I suspect it might be a conundrum for a number
of reasons.  We don't know what identity is -- we have some
intuitive ideas, but nothing rigorous that holds at the edges of our
experience.  Don't laugh at the philosophers because they are
puzzled by these problems.  Think how far you would get in a world
where quantum mechanical phenomena were visible and tangible if all
you had were your Newtonian intuitions to rely on.  Probably in
arguing about this we're making a mistake akin to dividing by zero
-- that postulating matter transmission or person duplication OR
personal identity as we intuit it is a fallacy.  It's the role of
philosophy to derive a non-fallacious concept of personal identity,
just as it is the role of physics to derive a non-fallacious concept
of the electron.

I think it was Locke who first suggested that you might be replaced
each night by an exact copy (or for that matter, manufactured from
whole cloth with memories of a past which did not exist).  Daniel
Dennet has a highly entertaining essay which captures the issues of
this problem called ``Where am I?'' in his book ``Brainstorms'' (I
think it may also appear in ``The Mind's I'' by Dennet & Douglas
Hofstadter).

Rudy Rucker also has a novel (called ``Software'', which is
excerpted in ``The Mind's I'') in which a group of sentient robots
kill their creator in order to analyze his brain (his software) to
reproduce his program in hardware not susceptible to the cancer and
heart disease that's killing him.  They build a robot that looks
just like him, and which runs the same program his brain was
running.  He's a bit uncomfortable about the procedure, I might add,
but the robot who wakes up is totally convinced he is the original.
Rucker's book introduces another interesting idea: his robots have
developed an aesthetic of minds -- they look on the ``patterns'' of
people's minds as an art form, or at least as things of beauty.
It's an interesting book, I enjoyed it a great deal, although there
is a scene early on that's not for the squeamish...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 11:42 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Who are you?

It seems to me that some points of which we all should be aware have
been missed.  Assume the following:

We have a device capable of recording an object's entire atomic
state and recreate it.  It doesn't matter whether the recording
process is destructive or not.  If it is we can build a new one
immediately; if not we have only a duplicator.

The big question is: Can LIFE be duplicated?  If it cannot, we only
have a replacement for cargo transportation, assuming a certain cost
level.  Let's assume it works on life though.  Creatures notice no
ill effects and people feel continuous through the process.

What we have here is a way of spawning processes.  We can
essentially create sentient life.  The recorded atomic state is our
pattern, and all clones of this template will feel like they are the
original, except that they should know they are copies from a
discontinuity in the surroundings.  There is a large possiblity of
craziness from the process, but we'll just erase the tapes until we
find someone who can cope.  After all, they will all walk out of the
machine exactly the same and immediately begin diverging from the
original. Each of these people will be unique, but with an identical
starting point and memories.  They operate with the same code, but
different parameters, if you will.  Their ONLY difference is
environmental.  They are not you, because they have not gone through
the same experiences you have *after* you were recorded.  The only
way *you* could be resurrected is if you died during the recording
process.  Otherwise they are all copies branching off from a common
point.

I wonder about their first words.  Would they all say the same thing
after walking out of the machine?  Would it be the same thing the
original said?  How quickly would they pick up on the fact they were
not the original?

You could back yourself up every night, that way if you were killed
you would only miss the day on which you died.  Of course, *you*
died, but you_1 could still live on.  I suspect they would demand
that the president do this, plus other irreplacables.  It would not
stop the pres from being assasinated but it would prevent him from
being dead too long.

John F Kennedy could still be alive.  What would Jackie think of the
new John?  After all she saw him die, but then the new one is
essentially the man she woke up with the day he died.

What if there are a bunch of you walking around?  How do you
identify the original?  Or do you identify the spawns?  Does the
original own them, or are they free?  Free I suppose, although if
they were owned the owning process could terminate them. And what if
they spawned themselves.  Imagine an army that all thought the same
way.

Of course, this negates the prime reason that people live, so that
they can die, hopefully having passed on their knowledge and genetic
info to their children and allowing them to continue.  It would be
very selfish of a person to keep replicating himself in an already
over populated world.  And who would decide who got to live again?
Popular vote?  Elvis Lives?

The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may be
fun, but it's not a really sensible long term solution to life.
After all, you still have to die, each and every replication.  Why
put yourself through that pain again {, and again}?

Jon Pugh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 85 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #382
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 382

Today's Topics:

              Books - Asimov & Cook & Finch & McQuay &
                      Some Comments (2 msgs) & Title Request,
              Television - The New Twilight Zone,
              Miscellaneous - Conventions &
                      Rules for reading SF-Lovers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 25 Sep 85 00:54:08-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Robots and Empire (non spoiler review)

                 ROBOTS AND EMPIRE by Isaac Asimov
                   Doubleday, ISBN 0-385-19092-1

     As has been apparent since FOUNDATIONS EDGE, Isaac has been
trying to forge a link between the worlds of his robot stories and
his classic FOUNDATION trilogy. In RaE, he continues the process
started in THE ROBOTS OF DAWN, setting up a situation in which the
Spacer Worlds of the Elijah Baley/robot stories (50 planets, lightly
populated by extremely long-lived aesthetes served by robot
retinues, with Earth in the background) can evolve into the Galactic
Empire (entire galaxy colonized by humans of ordinary lifespan, no
robots whatsoever, and Earth lost). He manages this rather clumsily,
needing to resort to deus ex machina devices.

     Gladia, who we met in tRoD and THE NAKED SUN, has lived 160
quiet years on Aurora since her last involvement with Elijah Baley,
the Earth police detective who cleared her of sabotage and murder
during her youth, incidently clearing the way for the short-lived
people of Earth to set up their own interstellar colonies. They have
done so with vigor, and the new Settler worlds now exist in an
uneasy balance with the older, non-expanding Spacer worlds.

     Fastolfe, Gladia's mentor, chairman of Aurora, and architect of
the plan under which Earth has been allowed to send out new
settlements has died. The new regime is under the control of his
arch-rival Amadiro, who is extremely hostile to Earth and its new
colonies.

     Gladia is asked by the new government to go with a Settler to
her former home planet of Solaria, which has recently dropped
completely out of the Spacer communication network and appears to be
depopulated.

     I will not divulge further plot elements, save to say that it
involves Aurora, Solaria, a Settler planet called Baleyworld, and
the Earth. Giskard and Daneel, the robots from the TRoD, play
central roles.

     The plot moves, but I wonder if I would have bothered if this
novel were not part of Isaac's magnum opus; it frequently slams to a
halt while the two robots discuss in redundant detail the 3 Laws of
Robotics and how their actions are restricted by them.  These
discussions, and the way the robots perception of their own roles
change as a result, are as much the raison d'etre of this book as is
spanning the gap between the two series.

     I rather wonder why Asimov is trying to do this: link the very
different worlds of the robots and the Foundation into one.  What
does he have to gain by it? Is it an intellectual challenge, or is
he just out of ideas? The last really original book I remember from
him was THE GODS THEMSELVES, which was at least 10 years ago.

     There is a massive hook left for a sequel, but at least it is
not a cliffhanger. I can certainly stand to wait a year or two till
it comes out. As for the present volume, it is probably about a +1
on the -4..+4 scale.
                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: A MATTER OF TIME by Glen Cook
Date: 2 Oct 85 05:14:23 GMT

                   A MATTER OF TIME by Glen Cook
                             Ace, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The still-warm body of a man who died fifty years ago is the
first clue in this mystery of agents from the future trying to
preserve the past to insure the continued existence of their future.
While Detective Cash tries to solve that mystery, his son is being
brain-washed by the Chinese Communists to carry out a very important
mission.  If it sounds like THE TERMINATOR meets THE MANCHURIAN
CANDIDATE to you, well, you're not far off.  Nothing great or
earth-shaking here, but a good read, especially for those who like
mysteries or spy adventures.  (I bought it as an alternate history,
which it isn't really, but it has the thread of time paradox running
through it if that's your thing.)
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: INFINITY'S WEB by Sheila Finch
Date: 2 Oct 85 05:13:30 GMT

                   INFINITY'S WEB by Sheila Finch
                        Bantam Spectra, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The back blurb says "Each life is the result of an infinity of
choices--choices that separate who we are from who we might have
been....  This is the tale of the many possible lives of Anastasia
Valerie Stein which come to touch one another through a twist in the
fabric of spacetime..."  To this Finch has added the mysteries of
the Tarot and her interpretation of quantum physics (apparently
Gregory Benford checked the physics sections, so I suppose they have
some validity).  The cover is pretty bad too.
     Joanna Russ did it better.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: LIFEKEEPER by Mike McQuay
Date: 2 Oct 85 05:13:53 GMT

                     LIFEKEEPER by Mike McQuay
                             Avon, 1980
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Mike McQuay got such good reviews on the Net, I thought I'd
give him a try.  In LIFEKEEPER, Doral Dulan (an "Exceptional") goes
to Milcom Forty-Three and meets Beatrice Delacorte (an "Outsider").
They fall in love, in defiance of the Milcom's orders, and...  Well,
if you've read BRAVE NEW WORLD, you can pretty much substitute
"Alpha" for "Exceptional," "Primitive" for "Outsider," etc., and
know what's going on.  The big secret at the end is no secret, and
in general, don't waste your time on this one.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Sep 85 18:28:05 pdt
From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: caught up..

Re: "Is Leiber a superficial writer?"  For those of you who enjoyed
Leiber's Fahfrd & the Grey Mouser, and would like to try some of his
deeper work, or for those of you who were able to finish Phillip K
Dick's Transmigration of Timothy Archer, or for anyone who lives near
San Francisco and reads, I recommend "Our Lady of Darkness" by Fritz
Leiber.

Re: Sabberhagen's Book of Swords I got the three-in-one book club
edition, but after 50 pages I decided to shear the binding and use it
at the commode.

Re: Downbelow Station I could not finish this one either - I thought
the characters and scenes were very flat.  The political intrigue was
slightly interesting, but not enough to carry the weight of the rest.

Re: "Chuck gives Trumps of Doom two *'s" I was also disappointed by
Trumps of Doom, but liked it a bit more than you did apparently.  For
a long time I have wondered how an Amberite would go about ordering a
pizza & etc.  The walk with Julia, and hellrides in general were also
well done.

<WARNING: SPOILER SPECULATIONS>

I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in fact
the gemstone of a ring.  Also Corwin is not dead, but is masquerading
as Bill, who knows far too much.

-steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Sep 85 22:05:33 pdt
From: Dennis Cottel <dennis%cod@nosc.ARPA>
Subject: comments on book reviews: Hogan, Alexander, Varley

There's not much information content in a "me, too" comment on a book
review, but the mention of Hogan's THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER prompts
me to abandon restraint.  I liked the book overall more than Mark
Leeper did, but I want to reiterate that the Prologue of this book is
worth the cover price all by itself.  Fascinating.  My copy has
already been read by three friends.

While I'm here, I'll add "MeToo"s to two of Paul Chisholm's reviews.  
The first is for Alexander's excellent THE BOOK OF THREE volumes.  
When I mentioned at home that I planned to read them before seeing THE
BLACK CAULDRON movie this summer, my teenage daughter pulled them from
her bookshelves.  I expected a light "juvenile" story, but they are
much more.

I, too, found the love story in "Press Enter_" to be moving.  When the
Nebula nominations were announced, I reread it.  On both readings, I
was *very* disappointed to have a great piece of science fiction drift
off into fantasy at the end.  It was *so* good for a while!

Finally, thanks to Mark, Paul, and others of you whose thoughtful 
reviews make this forum a fertile source of ideas and new directions 
for my reading pleasure.

What have *you* read lately?

Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619)
225-2406 dennis@nosc.ARPA sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

From: <crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 23:13:08 PDT
Subject: Re: Boring races

judith@proper.UUCP (judith) writes:
>Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ?

     I'll have to appeal to the net for the title and author of this
one.  I read a book some years ago about invaders who conquer Earth
and then discover, to their considerable dismay, that they have
conquered a race that is more intelligent.
     One specific instance in the book:

     Some human prisoners are being taken to a POW camp by alien
guards holding an alien rifle in one hand and a knife in the other.
A prisoner is explaining how to make a bayonet as they walk.

     One of the major aliens is (as best I recall) General Horsip.

     The book is very funny, well done, and ends in a rather
unexpected manner.

/Bruce N. Wheelock/
uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 1985 10:08 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC.ARPA>
Subject: Twilight Zone Audio

Tuesday's Los Angeles Times has an article about a three-dimensional
sound process called "spatial reverberation processing" that will be
used to liven the audio for the new Twilight Zone series, premiering
on Friday.

Time to buy airline tickets for Philadelphia- the experimental
stereo signal will make its debut there this Friday.

Philip DeGuere,the executive producer (pictured next to a monitor
displaying the Twilight Zone title, and looking quite natty in a new
Grateful Dead T-shirt) was made aware of the process by the sound
designer of the Twilight Zone, Mickey Hart. Hart got the job because
he was the only one from the Grateful Dead to show up for the first
meeting with DeGuere. Hart's first words to DeGuere were "I live in
the Twilight Zone". The Dead, along with jazzer Merle Saunders, are
the composers of the music for the show.

The three dimensional sound is being implemented by Betsy Cohen, a
Stanford University acoustician. The processing is being done at the
Northwestern University's Computer Music Studio, where it was
developed.

Harlan Ellison, creative consultant for the series, is unimpressed.
"People in this industry are technologically mad. I work on the text
of the story. That's where (the show) begins and ends."

Harlan was not wearing a Grateful Dead T-shirt.

                Greg Goodknight <good@ACC.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Help: World Fantasy Convention Info
Date: 25 Sep 85 01:31:00 GMT

The World Science Fiction Convention (aka WorldCon) was indeed held
in Australia (specifically, Melbourne) about a month ago. Since it
was an out-of-North-America con, a North American Science Fiction
Convention (NASFiC) was held over Labor Day weekend in Austin, TX.
WesterCon is completely separate from the two, and I assume it's an
annual event on the west coast. The World Fantasy Convention is also
unrelated to the above-named conventions. It's generally held the
weekend before Halloween, and if the one I went to in Chicago is any
judge, places a stronger emphasis on the written word than most
science fiction conventions. (i.e, very much a publisher's and
writer's convention, with relatively few media fans around).  Next
year's WorldCon will be held in Atlanta, GA. The one after that will
be in Brighton, England, with the NASFiC to be held in Phoenix, AZ.

                                        Wombat
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Sep 85 22:27:16-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Rules for reading SF-Lovers.

7 Rules of thumb for reading SF-Lovers:

    I have been watching SF-Lovers for about 4 years now, and have
also delved extensively into the archives. Certain patterns have
emerged, and I thought the list might find them of interest.

Rule 1:
     If quotations are nested to a depth greater than two, the topic
has been mined out.

    Comments on comments on comments are of very little interest to
most people (including me). Some of the discussion of Quality in
SF/Dhalgren is now preceded by '>>>>' and thus the submission
consists of a counter-blast to a flame against a rebuttal to an
alternate opinion to a comment on Dhalgren. Does anyone, save the
individuals involved, really care? The horse they are beating is not
merely dead, it's fossilized. (I suppose this submission goes to
another level, and is a complaint about counter-blasts to flames
against rebuttals to counter-opinions to comments on Dhalgren).

Rule 2:
     If there is a movie/book you are interested in, some jerk will
submit a spoiler without a warning. (Also known as the 'But I
thought EVERYBODY had seen The Prisoner.' rule).

Rule 3:
     If you have limited storage for mail, it will be on a weekend
when you are away that Saul will clear the backlog, and mail out 10
issues.
     This is not really a complaint, but a comment on our
embarassment of riches; SFL this year is far more voluminous than
last or any other year. Keep 'em coming Saul!

Rule 4:
     Info in SFL, provided it does not fall to Rule 2, will be far
more timely, and often more informative, than info from almost any
other source. (Not all my rules are sarcastic).

Rule 5:
     If a question/topic is not inextricably bound to a recently
released work, SFL has probably tackled it before:- in depth. For
example, SF Music was covered extensively a couple years ago, and
Showscan was first mentioned around '81. The source of Sturgeon's
Law appears definitively in volume 1. Inconsistancies in Niven's
Known Space series were disscussed soon after Ringworld Engineers
came out. Going back into the archives is often a good idea.

     This probably results from the average reader watching SFL only
for a year or two before going on to other things. I suspect that
the modal reader is a 3rd or 4th year undergrad who loses contact
when he/she graduates.

Rule 6:
     There is no Rule 6.

Rule 7:
     Often, comments contain deeply obscure in-jokes (Also known as
'The Rule 6 Rule').

Anyone else, particularly long-time SFL'ers, have some favorite
rules?
                'about 30% of submissions will have a "cute" signoff'

                                              Peter Trei
                                              oc.trei@cu20b

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 85 1027-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #383
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 383

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Brust & McCaffrey & Peake &
                    Pohl & Saberhagen & L. Neil Smith & Varley,
            Films - Star Trek IV,
            Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Nepotism &
                    Matter Transmission (2 msgs) & Price Increases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 85 13:15 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Asimov

I have to agree with Jim Brunet's opinion of Asimov's recent books.
Too many fans seem to react to names rather than content.  Asimov is
a great SF writer, therefore he only writes great SF. *bull*
Actually, I think Asimov died years ago, but Doubleday is making so
much money off of his famed prolificity, that they hired a staff of
writers to continue to put out Asimov books.  Certainly, this bit
about tying all the books together sounds like fan fiction.

Lisa

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: JHEREG by Stephen Brust
Date: 2 Oct 85 05:11:18 GMT

                      JHEREG by Stephen Brust
                             Ace, 1983
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

                       (**Spoiler warning**)

     One of the great things about fantasy is its ability to drop
you into the middle of a fully realized world completely of the
author's construction.  If you are dropped into the middle of an
alien world, you will quickly discover that the best thing to have
along is a great memory for new names and foreign terms.  This is
one of the reasons I do very poorly when dropped into the middle of
alien worlds: I can keep straight maybe six characters in a novel
without taking notes.  That's why of science fiction, horror, and
fantasy, fantasy is what I read the least.  The last fantasy I
really enjoyed was DAMIANO by R. A. MacAvoy.  It has just a few
characters and the supernatural beaties it deals with are
unimaginative things like angels and devils.  If you have a
reasonably good memory, first, I envy you, and second, expect a
different reaction to JHEREG than I had.

     The basic story is not a bad one, though I am a little
surprised that it was able to make a whole novel.  In a world where
magic works, a man who is basically a cheap detective of the Sam
Spade sort is given a single task not too different from one he
might be given in our world.  (I'm trying not too reveal too much.)
The rest of the novel is how he discovers why he is performing the
task of revenge, why the object of his revenge is doing what he is
doing, what the complications are, and finally, how he accomplishes
his mission.  In and of itself the problem is not all that complex
and somehow the solution seems too simple.

     So the plot is not the strong suit of JHEREG.  Brust, however,
has an ear for witty repartee and for characterization.  Some of his
dialogue is a positive joy to read.  When the pacing is slow, the
dialogue is what keeps the reader going.

     Brust has created a world where different rules work.
Characters who are killed may or may not come back, characters
teleport at will--there are a number of differences.  But the world
is self-consistent and with some substitutions not really very
different from ours.

     Aside from the multiplicity of unfamiliar names--probably not a
drawback for most other readers--the story is fairly well-written.
I did, however, all too often come up confused as to who was who in
the book and because of that, did not enjoy the book as much as I
might have.  Rate the book a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wed 25 Sep 85 10:44:13-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey as a person

Having met her at multiple conventions, I think I can say
unequivocally that yes, she is a warm, loving human being,
interested in and interesting to others.

She is also a delightfully bawdy woman, and a hell of a raconteur!
To catch her act, look into attending Norwescon 9 in Seattle, 20-23
March 1986; right now, that's the only place I know of her appearing
in the US in the next year (their other guests are Kelly and Polly
Freas, Spider & Jeannie Robinson, & Greg Bennett; see
publicly-accesible SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT for more
information).  She is subsidized by the Irish government (paid to
stay home and write, essentially), and only gets to take 2 trips a
year out of the British isles (as I understand her situation,
anyway).

-Rich

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Art ??
Date: 24 Sep 85 18:04:06 GMT

>From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse>
>       Have any of you folks read the Gormenghast trilogy, or parts
>there of ?  I'll reserve further discussion until I hear more.

Now you're talking!!

Yes indeed! They are probably the best novels written by an artist;
or the best illustrations by a writer that you will find anywhere.
The two are a whole and inseparable.

A plot summary would be quite long but yet convey nothing of the
unique flavour of these books. Be warned that Peake's style is dense
and architectural and can be hard to get into.

Don't forget the short story 'Boy in Darkness' which deals with an
episode in Titus' youth.

The BBC recently did 'Titus Groan' and 'Gormenghast' as two 1.5 hour
radio plays. Quite successful, but hopelessly compressed. Sting
played Steerpike! (not at all badly)

There was an *opera* planned!!!

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: idec!grafton@topaz.rutgers.edu (S. Grafton)
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file
Date: 24 Sep 85 10:21:27 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>They can't all be the original.  Take my word for it, if you are
>destroyed and replaced by an exact copy with your mind, you are
>dead.  The exact copy is only that.  I know.  It happens to me
>every night.
>                               Mark Leeper

This reminds me of another one of those short stories that I can
remember reading, 'The Tunnel under the World' by Fred Pohl (if my
colleague's memory serves him right).  The above comment jogged the
old memory.  It was about a man who found himself in a very strange
situation.  Every day people about him were doing exactly the same
things that they were doing the day before.  It was always the same
day, there were always the same progs on the tele (so whats new) and
so on.  Anyway he and a chum hide away somewhere but are eventually
found.  He finds out, much to his dismay, that he is in fact a
Robot.  His whole town was destroyed when a factory exploded and
everyone had been killed.  An advertising agency had bought the
town , 'reincarnated' the people as robots, and tested out different
advertising techniques on them.  They were reprogrammed every night.
Who knows, this may already have happened ......

grafton@idec.UUCP
mcvax!ukc!stc!idec!grafton

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Racer X)
Subject: Re: caught up..
Date: 26 Sep 85 13:06:45 GMT

>Re: Saberhagen's Book of Swords
>I got the three-in-one book club edition, but after 50 pages I
>decided to shear the binding and use it at the commode.
>-steve

It's too bad you didn't read a little farther.  The 51st page is
where it gets really good :-).  Seriously, I found the first book
(of three) a little slow, though interesting.  The second book
really had me hooked, and the third BLEW ME AWAY.  I did wish,
however, that the ending had been less rushed.  I got the feeling
Saberhagen could have written another 50-100 pages, perhaps delving
into more detail about the fate of the main characters.

You don't say why you "put it down".  Was it the plot you didn't
like, or did you find the writing sub-par, or...?

                                Scott J. Berry
                                ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE GALLATIN DIVERGENCE by L. Neil Smith
Date: 2 Oct 85 05:12:45 GMT

              THE GALLATIN DIVERGENCE by L. Neil Smith
                           Del Rey, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is apparently part of a series of books by Smith set in
the same universe, or rather, set of alternate universes.  (other
books in the series include TOM PAINE MARU, THE NAGASAKI VECTOR, and
THE PROBABILITY BROACH).  This one is set at the time of the Whiskey
Rebellion in a universe in which was formed the North American
Confederacy instead of the United States.

     I really wish I liked Smith's writing style more--he has such
interesting ideas, but I find his books agony to read.  The
first-person, "slangy" style in which he writes does not flow well
(at least to me) and attempting to follow the various speaking
styles of the characters (one of whom is a dolphin--what is it with
dolphins these days?  Every third author seems to feel he should
include intelligent dolphins in his novels) is not an easy task.  If
you can take the style, I would recommend it, but it's not for
everyone.
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: calmasd!gail@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many
Subject: spoilers
Date: 23 Sep 85 16:27:58 GMT

An interesting review.  It failed to mention what I found most
notable (and annoying) about the story -- the extreme overuse of
hacker's dictionary jargon.  It reads like someone handed Varley a
copy of the dictionary, and he decided to write a story using every
single word...

Gail Bayley Hanrahan
Calma Company, San Diego
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 85 13:02 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: ST IV

I recently received the following from a reliable source, Craig
Chrissinger of the Alpha Centauri Communicator.  Did anyone else hear
about this press relese?

About a week and a half ago, an OFFICIAL press release came out from
Paramount revealing the basic plot for the fourth Trek film.  Any
other stories you hear are false.  In the movie, Kirk and company
receive a strange message from aliens.  They find they cannot answer
it without going back in time to 1985 for hands-on research.  Both
the Pacific and Atlantic coasts of the United States are involved in
the story.  The movie is said to contain "more humor than before."
One of the highlights planned is a visit to San Francisco by Spock.
But no one will notice his alien appearance!  The major cast is back
and Nimoy is again directing.  However, there is no news on whether
Saavik returns.  I do know that Kirstie Alley is not in the cast.

Lisa Wahl
Star Trek Welcommittee

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1985 18:41 PST
From: Greg Goodknight <GOOD@ACC.ARPA>
Subject: Original Body One

RJS pokes a couple of holes in the "Original Body One=Obi-Wan"
posting:

1) Stormtrooper's heights vary;
2) Han and Luke mug a couple of stormtroopers and steal the
   uniforms. They would have noticed if the stormtroopers looked
   like Obi-Wan.

If there is an "Original Body One" there is probably an Original
Body Two, Three, Four... . It wouldn't take too many OB's to make it
very likely not to find the clone of a friend in a sample of two.
Since they may know the stormtroopers are clones they may not have
been surprised even if they had. Remember, we didn't see the actual
mugging.

I have wondered how the "clone wars" reference was going to be
worked into the Star Wars series. This rumor has a ring of truth to
it.
                Greg Goodknight <good@ACC.ARPA>

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Nepotism
Date: 24 Sep 85 17:50:45 GMT

Lubkin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>Many other such couples, esp. from Clarion.  Please expand my list.

Didn't E.E. (Doc) Smith's wife help him out with the dialogue and
love interest? Otherwise Kinnisson and McDonald would have had to
get together over a smoking DeLameter...

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 85 17:19:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: (resent msg, not sure last got sent...) re: matter
Subject: transmission

On matter transmission & body replacement:

I don't know where this "your body gets replaced atom by atom in the
course of a couple of weeks" idea came from, but it is ridiculous.
Someone just wrote a msg that covered the major objection (i.e.,
where do the new atoms come from?), so I won't get into that here.

I have heard, though, that replacement takes place on a cellular
level over the course of 7 years.  I do not remember if neural
tissue was included in this replacement claim.

My own opinion is: a duplicate may be good enough for people who
know me...but it is not good enough for ME.  They only have to deal
with someone who may-or-may-not be me....I have to take the risk on
the duplicate actually not being me.......

                        Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: transporters
Date: 24 Sep 85 17:58:47 GMT

Lubkin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>The unofficial official explanation for how the Enterprise's
>transporters work is that they convert matter to energy, zap the
>energy somewhere, and then convert the energy back to matter, *not*
>by scanning your body for information content, blasting you, and
>then making a new one at the other end, as Blish unfortunately
>explained in _Spock Must Die_.

The two explanations are the same.  Otherwise, if you just dumped
the energy somewhere else without imposing the information content
of the second explanation, the Second Law of Thermodynamics takes
over and you just get an undifferentiated cloud of particles at high
energy.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

From: fortune!horton@topaz.rutgers.edu (Randy Horton)
Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off!
Date: 23 Sep 85 08:20:47 GMT

wmartin@brl-bmd.UUCP writes:
>Of course, there are some of us around that bought books in the
>50's or so that believe that 35 cents is an elegant sufficiency for
>a paperback book price...
>
>Anyway, if more people were like me, and didn't pay the insane
>prices that are asked these days for paperbacks, the price levels
>would stay down, and the publishers would be forced to cut costs to
>keep them there. Anybody who pays list price for books is part of
>the problem, not part of the solution...
>
>Will

I second this thought.  I almost never purchase books at list price.
I usually patronize a local chain called Crown Books.  Their motto
is *If you paid full price, you didn't buy it at Crown Books*.  I am
not entirely sure that buying books only at discount prices has any
effect on publishers, but I save money, and I support a business
whose pricing policy I agree with.

allegra\   Randy Horton @ Fortune Systems
cbosgd  \
dual     >!fortune!ranhome!randy
ihnp4   /
nsc    /

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Sep 85 1048-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #384
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Sep 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 384

Today's Topics:

            Books - Cherryh & MacAvoy & Niven & Peake &
                    Zelazny (2 msgs),
            Films - Back to the Future,
            Miscellaneous - Nepotism (4 msgs) & Cons &
                    Scientology & Matter Transmission & 
                    Price Increases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 26 Sep 85 20:46:13-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #379

> I have tried to like Cherryh, and it is simply beyond me.  She
> tackles ambitious subjects; perhaps her problem is that they are
> *too* ambitious, i.e., beyond her capabilities.  Like others in
> this forum, I must read and assimilate correctly some rather large
> volumes of scientific literature.  One tends, in such
> circumstances, to wish the reading one does for relaxation to be
> readily accessible (the proverbial 'good read') on first reading

I agree.  I prefer more relaxing and accessible authors, like LeGuin
and Proust and Calvino and Glen Cook.  Somehow, nothing I've read by
Cherryh has seemed whole or quite coherent.  I have no empathy for
any of her characters, not even the ones that are supposed to be
completely human.

By the way, I've heard rumors that Italo Calvino died recently.

Bard

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON
Date: 23 Sep 85 18:35:00 GMT

I can explain my feelings about TWTBD best by metaphor.  It's a
nice, delicate, fragile story, full of subtleties that compare to
most fantasy (which I also like) the way that a soap bubble compares
to a baseball or Szechuan cuisine compares to steak and potatoes.

So much writing, even by fairly decent writers, stoops to bashing
the gentle reader over the head.  In TEA, MacAvoy is so understated
without being boring.  It's also a story that plays nicely with
ambiguities of both plot and character instead of being
cut-and-dried.

"Concerning matters of taste, there is no disputing." -- Cicero (?)

Obviously, Cicero (or whoever) lived before the days of the net.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: Thu Sep 26 12:30:32 1985-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <taw@s1-c.arpa>
Subject: Sentimental Protectors

Paula Sanch points out that the unknown map would not be a Map of
Pak because protectors would not be so sentimental as to memorialize
the Homeworld.

It seems reasonable to assume that, if a Map of Pak exists, the
Protectors would go to the trouble of seeding that Map with Homo
habilis, and possibly even Tree of Life.  And not just for
sentimental reasons.  Remember that one of the functions of a
Protector is to weed out mutations.  This is because of the
relatively high level of radiation at the galactic core.  Perhaps
the Protectors that built the Ringworld felt that a "control" group
of unchanged Pak breeders was necessary.  By duplicating the
Homeworld, and populating it you could do this.

Another possibility is that the Map of Pak may be a giant rest and
recreation camp for Protectors.  The Ringworld is *big*.  We don't
know why the Protectors built the other Maps, either, but you can't
rule out sentimentality, or even laziness.  If you can copy a design
for a part of the Ringworld, you don't have to think it up yourself.
If you've got adequate maps of some of your favorite planets, why
not use them, unless you can think of something better to put there?
You've certainly got enough space to indulge even a planetary-sized
whim.

Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)
MILNET: <taw at MORDOR> <taw at S1-C>
UUCP:   ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw  ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw

------------------------------

From: cybvax0!mrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz)
Subject: Re: Gormenghast
Date: 25 Sep 85 15:35:23 GMT

stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin) writes:
> Although I wimped out in the middle of the second volume, Peake's
> style was really inspiring.  The richness of the stuff made me
> pause.

I read all three volumes, waiting throughout for something to
happen.  It seemed like a million exciting threads were all left
untied and unresolved.  It was magnetic, but gave back nothing for
the attraction.

> Rolling Stone's special on Sting mentioned that he has the movie
> rights to Gormenghast.  Gormenghast would make an excellent movie!

Gormenghast would make the same kind of movie that Dune and LOTR did.

> Bad.  It would have to be skeletal, rushed, different, and
> unsatisfactory.

Mike Huybensz           ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 1985 10:57:51-EDT (Thursday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Trumps of Doom

While it is true that Amberites are far stronger etc than normal
people, they tend to be secretive about it.  Neither Merlin nor Luke
would be too likely to display the full range of their physical
abilities, so each would think the other simply a top athlete.
Corwin acted that way to a small degree in "Guns of Avalon".

Why shouldn't the Blue Crystal hold Merlin?  Bleys and Fiona were
able to neutralize Brand's powers, and he knew far more than Merlin
does.  If Luke was trained by his father, he could easily have
inherited much of Brand's abilities.

Someone brought up the point that Corwin is insane because blood was
spilled on his pattern.  Well, based on what Dworkin said in Sign of
the Unicorn, it would have to be either his blood or one of his
descendants.  It can't be his, since he cannot be hurt.  Remember
that his pattern protects him from harm.  He can feel pain, but
cannot be injured.  And we know it wasn't Merlin.  So unless Corwin
has another child, not totally unlikely, since he did spend 500yrs
wandering around Earth, his insanity must be from another cause, if
he is truely insane.  Besides, it seems unlikely that Luke, young
and relatively inexperienced, could get at Corwin, who has, after
all, a few thousand years behind him.

------------------------------

From: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle)
Subject: more Trumps_of_Doom speculation
Date: 25 Sep 85 16:12:19 GMT

>> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in
>> fact the gemstone of a ring.  Also Corwin is not dead, but is
>> masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much.
>       Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in
>       Ganelon/Oberon...

When Julia's body was discovered by Merle she was wearing a blue
pendant.  Rinaldo wanted Merle to wear his ring, which he didn't
wear himself.  The ring has some sort of unknown property.  Bill
doesn't know a lot he just asks a lot of questions and then does
some deductive reasoning.  In the earlier Amber series he does the
same for Corwin.

Now for some trivia.  In what Amber book did Roger Zelany make a
cameo appearance?  Post to me and unless I am swamped with correct
responses I will post the names of those who knew.

Charlie
ARPA: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS.EDU
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!speegle

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Two questions on "Back to the Future"
Date: 23 Sep 85 21:43:03 GMT

martin@oliven.UUCP (Martin L.W. Hall) writes:
>I have an interesting question: Is November 5 .... an important day
>for time travel?  Both _Back_to_the_Future_ and _Time_After_Time_
>(about H.G. Wells and Jack the Ripper) use that day as either a
>takeoff or arrival date....are there other movies that use this
>day...or is it just a coincidence?

Given the nature of _Back_to_the_Future_, it's probably not a
coincidence.  There's a good chance it copied the date from
_Time_After_Time_ -- there are many such references in the movie.

Frank Adams
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: Thu 26 Sep 85 11:04:57-PDT
From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: PARENT-CHILD COMBOS

>In the edition I read of MZ Bradley's _Bloody Sun_, a
>semi-autobiographical essay is included, which gives some details
>of her family.  I have heard about, but not seen, a book written by
>her son, [first name not recalled] Zimmer.

I think his name is Paul Zimmer.  If he's the one, I didn't much
like his books.

Aline Norris Baeck
Norris@SRI-AI.ARPA

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Re: Nepotism
Date: 25 Sep 85 07:46:09 GMT

>Many other such couples, esp. from Clarion.  Please expand my list.

I believe Henry Kuttner and C.L. Moore were married and collaborated
on SF.  Anyone know about this?

J.A.

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: parent-child writing teams
Date: 23 Sep 85 22:17:25 GMT

Another pair that comes to mind is Joe Haldeman and his son Jack.

Frank Adams
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Children of SF authors
Date: 23 Sep 85 15:15:54 GMT

My wife recently brought home a book by Joe Haldeman and Jack C.
Haldeman II; I think the title was Worlds Apart.  I don't know the
relationship between the two, but father and son sounds reasonable.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Help: World Fantasy Convention I
Date: 23 Sep 85 18:43:00 GMT

Whenever the WorldCon is outside of the U.S.A., a NASFIC (North
American Science Fiction Convention?) is held, usually around the
same time.  This year's was held in Austin, Texas, and featured a
concurrent chili cook-off.

The WesterCon is one of the major regional cons, held for the west
coast.  The Midwest and New England also have major regional cons
and I'm sure there will be a deluge of info. if anyone asks.

WesterCon is held on July 4 weekend (WorldCon's are usually around
Labor Day) and next year's will be in San Diego, while 1987 will be
in Oakland.

Next year's WorldCon, ConFederation, will be in Atlanta.  There are
calendar listings of Cons, with addresses for further info., in
LOCUS, ANALOG, and ASIMOV's, among others.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #370
Date: 25 Sep 85 14:34:12 GMT

>From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
>
>RJS, discussing Scientology:
>> Postings on scientology are wholly appropriate to the science
>> fiction net, as anyone aware of both that religions history and
>> the history of sf is aware.  Fact: scientology was created by a
>> ... [Several facts follow]
>
>Where does one discover these things?  Everything I know about
>Scientology is by hearsay.

One can learn much of scientology's roots by reading John W.
Campbell's editorials from _Astounding_ (now _Analog_) of the late
1930s.  Nicholls' _Science_Fiction_Encylopedia_ (Doubleday) has a
lengthy, surprisingly broad-minded entry on Scientology and of
course an entry on pulpmeister Hubbard.  What follows is a brief
excerpt of a published interview I did with Donald Kingsbury (Author
of _Courtship_Rite).

                 An Interview with DONALD KINGSBURY
                   Conducted by Robert J. Sawyer
         From the May 1984 issue of SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW

SAWYER: You were once involved in Scientology.  Or would you prefer
not to talk about that?

KINGSBURY: Oh, I have no trouble handling the Scientologists.
Dianetics, you know, was first presented in _Astounding_.  I sent
away for the book, actually receiving it before its official
publication date, and read it in one sitting.  I thought, "that's a
very interesting psychotherapy technique; I'll try it out on my
girlfriend."  I went over to her place, had her lie down on the
couch, and closed the living-room door.  In the middle of the
session, her mother broke in.  She thought -- well, you know what
she thought: we were doing something indecent.  I later married that
girl, though.  I spent one week of our honeymoon learning Dianetics
from L. Ron Hubbard; the other week we went to Martha's Vineyard.  I
began to have reservations about the scientology organization.  I
was going to start a group in Montreal, but I found Hubbard very,
very, very difficult to work with.  I always knew I didn't agree
with him on a lot of things.  He was impossible to work with if you
didn't agree with him and in that way he created scads of heretics.


SAWYER:  You were untimately excommunicated.

KINSBURY: I taught my mathematics course at McGill in the same way
they taught Scientology: as workshops, a very fast, very effective
method.  I wrote a report on the application and sent a copy to
Hubbard.  He sent me back a letter saying I had plagerized his
learning theories.  Hubbard built a great apparatus to deal with
enemies.  In order to have something for the apparatus to do, he
goes out and creates enemies.  He has a hard time with able people.
When he gets able people around him, he excommunicates them.

RJS

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: matter transmission
Date: 23 Sep 85 22:12:35 GMT

DP0N@A.CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>let me say it one more way.  imagine that we can make the copy
>without damaging the original at all.  according to the arguments
>i'm hearing, if you shoot the original through the head, it will
>not experience death now, since there is a copy of it.  this is
>plainly ridiculous.

No, in order for the original not to be dead, you would have to make
the copy *after* it was shot.  After the copy, there are two people,
who each have the same identity as the person before the copy, but
they do *not* have the same identity as each other.  "Having the
same identity" is not an equivalence relation.

Frank Adams
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off!
Date: 23 Sep 85 13:38:18 GMT

Gee I'm glad to see that there are at least a few people on the net
who aren't so yuppily affluent that they can ignore an 18% price
increase in a period of disinflation.  Yes, I think that the most
effective tactic is to
1) not buy at the higher rate and
2) be sure that the retailers notice the fact.
I'm pretty sure that the retailers will keep the publishers
informed.  Now, if the publishers don't give a damn, then we are all
in even worse trouble than I think we are...  Used book stores seem
to be dying out in this area, but they still exist and it seems to
me that sf is their second biggest commodity, after romances (of
course).  Why "of course," Grantges? Well, if you don't know by now,
Richard, I"m afraid you'll never learn, but, just as a hint, hard
core stuff is mostly illegal 'round here.

Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 85 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #385
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 385

Today's Topics:

                Books - Herbert & Killian & Peake &
                        STL Stories & Title Requests (2 msgs),
                Magazines - Analog on Microfiche,
                Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Price Increases &
                        Matter Transmission & Nepotism (3 msgs) &
                        The Age of SF-LOVERS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ubc-cs!andrews@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Books into movies
Date: 23 Sep 85 23:52:59 GMT

phillips@trantor.UUCP (Tom Phillips) writes:
> ... <some differences between _Dune_ book and movie> ...
>Did you see the "ornithopter" flapping it's wings in the movie?
>Did the Baron look to you as if he was too fat to walk without
>suspensor globes?  The book specifically mentions that the
>stillsuits were a slick gray material, not black leather.
> ... <more differences> ...

     The thing is that these are two different media, which treat
stories in two distinct ways.  It's easy to write a book which
accurately follows a movie, but often almost impossible to make a
movie which accurately follows a book.  Everyone has a different
idea of how faithfully a book could have been followed; in this
case, the author's opinion happens to be not as hard-line as yours.
     I read that they tried to make the ornithopter wings flap, but
it just looked too hokey on film.  (I thought that the whole idea of
ornithopters was hokey when I first read it!)  As for the black
stillsuits - I'm sure that getting suits of the exact colour
mentioned in the book was not a prime consideration, and certainly
can't affect the story line too too much.

>Frank Herbert had a very strong motivation for lying about how good
>the movie was.  Money....

     Why not complain instead about the totally bogus preface that
Herbert put in front of the latest _Dune_ clones?  To paraphrase: "I
did not write _Dune_ to make money or to interest others.  I wrote
it merely because this story was burning inside me to be Written..."

     Sure.  And my real name's Kchula-Rrit.

     Jamie.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 85 08:25 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian

>From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
>The Canadian patriot in me feels its necessary to point out to the
>world that Crawford Killian is one of the many fine Canadian
>science fiction writers (others include this year's Nebula winner
>William Gibson, Spider Robinson, Donald Kingsbury, and Wayland
>Drew.

Not to knock your patriotism, but ain't no way you can count Spider
Robinson in that list.  He's a former New Yorker who happens to have
emmigrated to Canada.  If you can count him, does that make
Americans out of all the Canadian actors and other performers who
live and work in the US?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 85 01:39:58 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Gormenghast

I read the Gormenghast trilogy too.  I have to agree that it was
kind of a study in not terribly exciting characters.  The first two
books are very different from the third, especially in setting.  I
think I preferred the first two volumes.  All in all, I would say
that I agree with Brian Clapper's description of the trilogy.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Sep 85 15:17:29 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Slower than light space travel

> From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
> Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of SF
> coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the speed
> of light...

How about _A_Gift_From_Earth_ by Niven?  And other related stories?
A good portion of Niven's Known Space takes place before FTL was
"discovered".  Most of them are short stories.  But the whole
concept of Ramscoop robots and colony ships is based on non-FTL
travel.  I could rattle off a bunch of names, but my Niven
collection is at home, and besides, I'm sure everyone gets the idea.

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Sep 85 17:50:33 PDT
From: William S. Sinclair <sinclair@AEROSPACE.ARPA>
Subject: Need title of short story, and author

This was a short story somewhere. I need the author and title.

Our hero emigrates from Earth to what he thinks will be a Utopian
planet.  When he gets there, he finds out that the partial pressure
of oxygen is very low, so that everyone has to have an oxygen pack.
Furthermore, the local honcho is renting the things out for whatever
the market will bear, and has a way of turning the packs off by
remote control for anyone who doesn't pay up. The story is about how
they depose the "oxygen baron".

                        Thanx in advance;
                        Bill Sinclair

------------------------------

From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance
Date: 27 Sep 85 23:33:34 GMT

On the otherside of the coin, I recall a story (book?) wherein the
upstart new Earthlings first come out into space, after having been
given the technology for space drive, and suddenly the galaxy finds
itself up a creek, because the humans are conniving, conning, and in
general swindling the other people of the galaxy, because it turns
out the humans are just plain smarter than the other races.

Just out of curiosity, anyone got a name for this story?

        Steven

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 85 09:43:29 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Analog on MicroFiche
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA

     The last couple issues of Analog had ads for all fifty years
of Astounding/Analog on MicroFiche.  Has anyone broken down and
forked out the eight hundred dollars for the set and the reader?
How is the quality?  Any general comments, or warnings?  It seems
like a great deal for us addicts.

     Henry III

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.rutgers.edu (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #374
Date: 24 Sep 85 22:45:42 GMT

>From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
>Maybe light-sabres are more expensive than blasters?  Or maybe it
>costs more (money, time, talent) to train people in light-sabre than
>in blaster?
>
>Or perhaps light-sabres are more sporting (you can run from them,
>sometimes) and not appropriate for the Empire to use.
>
>Or maybe you can learn to use the Force from light-sabre training,
>and the Empire doesn't want ten billion grunts running around with
>moderate skill in the Force.  Who knows?  Maybe one of them will be
>stronger than Darth Vader.

I'm jumping in blindfolded here because our news software was down
for almost 2 weeks and I've missed a lot.  This appears to be a
discussion of why Jedi use light sabers and Imperial Storm Troopers
don't.

For a pretty good discussion of why modern soldiers aren't equipped
with swords see Heinlein's _Glory Road_.

The basic premise is that almost any moron can be taught to point
and shoot a rifle in a matter of weeks.  To be seriously good with a
sword takes _years_ of loving practice.

The sword is, in some ways, a superior weapon.  It's better for
close-in, hand to hand combat and it never jams or runs out of
ammunition.  The training factor is what makes it impractical for
use by grunts.

There is the problem that a blaster allows attack from a distance.
The Jedi appear to get around this by being so good they can deflect
blaster bolts with their sabers.  Imagine trying to teach _that_
technique to a platoon of raw storm-trooper recruits (evolution in
action? (-: ).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price
Date: 27 Sep 85 00:42:00 GMT

And if you can't find an independent bookstore in your area, the
nearest one is as close as your mailbox. Some advertise in magazines
like Science Fiction Chronicle or Locus. Some will come to you -- if
you go to a convention, the attendance list might be sold to
booksellers, who will send you a catalog. Many send catalogs monthly
or bi-monthly listing new books received in stock, now and then
going through older books, used and unused, laying around the store.
Unlike Publisher's Clearing House, though, if you don't order
something within five or six catalogs, they usually will stop
sending them unless you send a postcard indicating interest or send
a couple dollars for postage. If they don't have what you want, and
it's still in print, they'll order it for you. Some will maintain
lists of books their customers are looking for, keeping an eye open
for them when buying used books. Many will give little mini-reviews
of books they or their friends have read. (And if it's a real dog,
Mark Zeising will tell you so.)

Note that some booksellers (David Aronovitz, for example) are mostly
trying to sell to collectors, and their prices will tend to run
higher than others'. If you just have to have a Gnome Press edition
of something this month, they're a good place to look, but if you
just want any old version of *Nine Hundred Grandmothers* you'd be
better off ordering from one of the more general-purpose guys. (But
*nobody* has John Collier books.)

The places I've done business with have all been pretty good.

Mark Zeising in Willimantic, CN, runs a nice business and is our
favorite.  He keeps a good stock of new books in and cycles through
his backlist once or twice a year. His catalogs are fun to read.

Robert and Phyllis Weinberg in Chicago (Oak Park?) have a good
selection of fantasy, horror, Sherlockiana, mystery, old pulps, and
comics, as well as SF. The backlist is a little weaker, but they put
a trivia question in every catalog (and award a prize to the first
order with the correct answer).

David Aronovitz in Flint, MI, deals mostly in first and rare
editions.  Useful to know if you decide to turn collector. You can
also get things like third edition hardback Cabell for reasonable
prices.

Pandora's Books in Neche, ND, sent me a catalog yesterday for the
first time. They had semi-reasonable prices on hardbacks, but
paperbacks were kind of high.

Edward R. Hamilton (somewhere in CN) is like a one-man Publisher's
Central Bureau, with about the same prices and a little (but not
much) more esoteric stock.

I've also had a few catalogs from a place in England, but have
forgotten the name. Never ordered from them, though, because I was
too lazy to get around to getting an international money order.

                                        Wombat
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 85 01:30:50 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Matter transmitters, souls, and Reformed Sufis

Here's where I stick my nose into the fray and get it chopped off!

It seems to me that much of the debate here in the matter
transmitter/recorder discussion really is a question of whether or
not there is such a thing as a soul which exists separate and
distinct from the physical person.  If there is a soul, copies will
be qualitatively different from the original since the soul, not
being matter as we know it, will not be copied/recorded by such a
device.

Now for the strange questions: assuming that there is a soul and
that it can be recorded along with the body's matter, what are the
moral imperatives about your backups?  Are they different people
from you?  Do you have the right to erase them or is that an illegal
act of murder/suicide?  Which one of them is legally you if it comes
to a court fight?  (The same questions apply to clones if you accept
there is such a thing as a human soul that arises at the moment of
conception/creation.)

If the soul cannot be recorded does this mean that your backups have
no soul?  Or will they magically develop one when played into a
physical body?  Suppose your backups are played into someone else's
body/clone, which one of you will the creature actually be?  Or
would it go insane (as in the Orson Scott Card books)?

The Reformed Sufi stories, which ran in Analog a couple of years
ago, touched on these issues some.  People interested in this
discussion might want to go check these stories out.

Another little side note, do realize just how fast a matter
transmitter would have to be to to record and pass on all the
quantam information of a living creature?  There was a story of
someone building a matter transmitter which worked fine enough for
inanimate objects but was never able to transmit a living object
successfully, they all died in transit.  I believe the inanimate
objects all had funny wavy patterns in their structure after
transmission.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Nepotism
Date: 27 Sep 85 01:08:00 GMT

From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>   Lisa Tuttle & Charles Platt (or whoever it was she married)
>   C. L. Moore & Ed Hamilton   (ditto)
>   Don & Elsie Wollheim (DAW Books.  Now daughter too)

Corrections:
Lisa Tuttle is married to Christopher Priest.
To my knowledge, Charles Platt has never married anyone.
C.L. Moore was married to Henry Kuttner.
Leigh Brackett was married to Ed Hamilton.

Additions:
The Wollheims' daughter is Betsy. (DAW has been seriously ill, by
the way.)
James Blish was married to Virginia Kidd.
Marion Zimmer Bradley and Paul Zimmer are sister and brother.
John Clees, Diana Paxson, and Paul Zimmer are married to one another.
C.J. Cherryh's brother, David Cherry, is a fantasy and SF artist.
Robert (Buck) and Juanita Coulson are married.
Cyril Kornbluth's wife, Mary, did some editorial work.
Alexei and Corey Panshin (husband and wife) have written together.
Wendy and Richard Pini (husband and wife) did *Elfquest* together.
Arkady and Boris Strugatsky are brothers.

                                        Wombat
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Nepotism
Date: 27 Sep 85 14:01:00 GMT

Another husband-wife pair of sf writers:
        James Blish and J. A. Lawrence

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: parent-child writing teams
Date: 26 Sep 85 14:29:28 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Another pair that comes to mind is Joe Haldeman and his son Jack.

I thought that was Joe Haldeman and his *brother* Jack. I don't
think Joe is old enough to have a son who has been writing for 6-7
years.
                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 85 01:57:08 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: The age of SF-L ...

I would guess that the volume number is a pretty accurate estimate
of the age of SF-Lovers.  I remember being introduced to it between
six and seven years ago and it was a couple of years old then.
Somewhere in the archives is a slightly humorous history of SF-L
from its earlist direct mail days to a point after Roger Duffey took
it over and started the digestifying process on it.

Anybody else still reading that attended the NorEasCon II SF-L
party?  (Lauren, or Chip, or any of the old heavy contributers?)  Do
any of you have any idea how old the digest actually is?  Please
correct me if I am wrong.

The marriage of SF-L and the Usenet interest group wasn't immediate.
There was apparently a time lag before SF-L found or was directed to
forwarding people/sites and onto the USENet, Dec internal Net and
various other nets from the arpanet.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 85 0954-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #386
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 386

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Asimov & Vardeman,
                     Films - Back to the Future,
                     Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) &
                             Matter Transmission (3 msgs) &
                             Support Small Bookstores
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS digest entry
Date: 26 Sep 85 23:31:36 GMT

>By the way here is Asimov's chronology, as he published it.
>The whole article in LOCUS is good if you haven't seen it.
>
>  1.  The Complete Robot  (short stories)  1982
>  2.  The Caves of Steel (1954)
>  3.  The Naked Sun (1957)
>  4.  The Robots of Dawn (1983)
>  5.  Robots and Empire (1985) [not yet published, could be
>      off schedule]
>  6.  one more transition novel, planned.
>  7.  The Currents of Space (1952)
>  8.  The Stars, Like Dust... (1951)
>  9.  Pebble in the Sky (1950)
>  10.  Prelude to Foundation (planned)
>  11.  Foundation (1951)
>  12.  Foundation and Empire (1952)
>  13.  Second Foundation (1953)
>  14.  Foundation's Edge (1982)
>  15.  Foundation and Earth (in progress)

And what about *The End of Eternity* which acts as a prelude (from
the far future) for the entire series?

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
(415) 960-9367
..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: MUTINY ON THE ENTERPRISE by Robert E. Vardeman
Date: 25 Sep 85 14:20:26 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The ship is crippled in orbit around a dangerous, living,
  breathing planet, and a desperate peace mission to the Orion Arm
  is stalled.  Kirk has never needed his crew more. But a lithe,
  alien woman is casting a spell of pacifism -- and now mutiny --
  over the crew.  Suddenly Captain Kirk's journey for peace has
  turned into a terrifying war -- to retake command of his ship!"

If you've never read a Star Trek novel, thinking that such books are
all just cheap, juvenile rip-offs from the TV series, think again.
I've read about half a dozen Star Trek novels, and they seem to be
pretty representative of SF in general, running the gamut from dull
to very exciting.

MUTINY ON THE ENTERPRISE is a good example. The story is well paced,
and there are two or three things going on at the same time.
Further, the "alien woman" mentioned on the jacket isn't as
one-sided as you might think. The book presents a couple of
interesting ideas, and seems to be true to the spirit of Star Trek
in general. About the only criticism I have is that there's one too
many Spock vs. McCoy spats.

This book doesn't have the depth and complexity of two other Star
Trek books I've read, THE PRICE OF THE PHOENIX and THE FATE OF THE
PHOENIX by Marshak and Culbreath, but I still enjoyed it very much.
I give the book 2.5 stars (i.e., good).  --

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@topaz.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: The town in Back to the Future
Date: 25 Sep 85 20:27:56 GMT

>From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>I just watched Gremlins which was free with Teen Wolf, and guess
>what I recognized?  The town was the same as Back to the Future,
>but with some signs changed.  They never gave a really good view of
>the clock tower, but the movie theatre he crashed into on his way
>back was the same one where Snow White was enjoyed by the little
>monsters until they "blowed up, sir".
>
>Just another proof it was a back lot.

To see the town, go on the Universal Studios Tour, and look for the
only large, park like area in the back lot.  Last time I was there,
they were shooting some scenes for "Knight Rider".  I still think
that the Mall Scenes were shot at the Orange County Mall, about the
time of the last Fall DECUS, early December of '84.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 85 14:10 EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <acw@WAIKATO.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF Authors' children

The late Paul M. A. Linebarger (Cordwainer Smith) had (at least) a
daughter named Marcia.  The last I knew (c. 1979?) she was in MIT's
graduate linguistics program.  She said, "I don't like SF -- only
Cordwainer Smith," but I don't know if she was being straight.  I
think she has one of those completely personal senses of humor that
is only understandable to one's close friends, and I am certainly
not one of hers, so if she was joking it went right by me.

MIT's alumni office will probably have more recent info.

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@topaz.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Children of SF authors
Date: 25 Sep 85 17:32:36 GMT

> My wife recently brought home a book by Joe Haldeman and Jack C.
> Haldeman II; I think the title was Worlds Apart.  I don't know the
> relationship between the two, but father and son sounds
> reasonable.

The two Haldemans are brothers; Joe must be in his early forties,
and I'm sure Gay would have told us at INCONJUNCTION last year if
they'd had any kids old enough to write.  (BTW, if you look in last
year's Aug. or Sept. Locus, you'll see Joe and Gay (his wife)
dressed up in Rocky Horror outfits that they wore in part of my
play, ROCKEY HALDEMAN HORROR SHOW, a perversion of the original
musical, in which they appeared...)

arlan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Sep 85 13:29:15 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Matter transmission and duplication
To: pugh jon%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA

>From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>I wonder about their first words.  Would [duplicates] all say the
>same thing after walking out of the machine?  Would it be the same
>thing the original said?  How quickly would they pick up on the
>fact they were not the original?

  There is a really great scene along these lines in Varley's
_Ophiuchi_Hotline_.  When a woman wakes up from having her mind
backed up, she notices that the leaves are a different color, and
realizes that time has passed and she must be a duplicate.  She then
asks several questions only to have what she just said handed to her
neatly typewritten, and to be told that this had happened several
times before and she that she repeats herself each time.  She is a
prisoner and is told not to try to escape as her captors know
exactly how she will try (how she did try) to escape, and are
prepared for it.

>Of course, this negates the prime reason that people live, so that
>they can die, hopefully having passed on their knowledge and
>genetic info to their children and allowing them to continue.  It
>would be very selfish of a person to keep replicating himself in an
>already over populated world.  And who would decide who got to live
>again?  Popular vote?  Elvis Lives?

  Whoever could afford it, I suppose.
  That may be the main reason biologically, but people do not
usually think like that.  I for one would like to live indefinitely.
  I am not convinced that the world is overpopulated.  The solar
system certainly isn't.
  I don't think people would just start making duplicates of
themselves (as opposed to having one on file in case of death).  If
there were suddenly two of you, the duplicate would have no job and
no place to live (could you live with yourself?  I would probably
kick myself out within a few hours!)

>The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may
>be fun, but it's not a really sensible long term solution to life.
>After all, you still have to die, each and every replication.  Why
>put yourself through that pain again {, and again}?

  With that attitude, why go on living now, risking a painful death,
when you could die painlessly today?
  There must be more good than bad in life, otherwise why live at
all?  Given that, why not live as long as possible?
  In any case, you (whichever iteration you were) would have no
memory of death, since in each case the backup was made before each
death.  So 'you' would experience death at most once.
  Many people are not bothered by the posibilty of their own death,
but are very bothered by the deaths of loved ones.  No doubt many
people will take this into account and will only start having
themselves backed up when they are married and/or have children that
depend on them.
  One exception to this would be if someone is very sick and in pain
and near death.  It would be cruel to keep re-creating them only to
have them die again a few hours or days later.  Hopefully this
dilemma will never arise, as the technology needed for duplication
should be sufficient to cure any disease, including the effects of
old age (see Niven's _A_World _Out_Of_Time_ in which a matter
transmitter cures old age).
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: hadron!klr@topaz.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: Who are you?
Date: 25 Sep 85 20:33:37 GMT

Along the same line, there was a story that appeared in _OMNI_
several years ago.  It involved a time in the "future" when the
Soviets had taken over the US, in a non-violent coup.  They were
punishing one of the Democratic Revolutionaries by repeatedly
killing him, while transferring his "personality" and memories to a
clone, up to the moment of death.  The methods of execution that
were used were chosen for the psychological horror, such as being
fed slowly into an incinerator, feet first.  Each clone remembered
the previous "original's" death, and was usually forced to go clean
it up and bury it.

All this, just to change a persons way of thinking?

I have forgotten what the point of all this was.  Oh well.

------------------------------

From: netex!ewiles@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ed Wiles)
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file
Date: 25 Sep 85 20:24:07 GMT

>[Keith Lynch:]
> Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could
> you ever truly die?
>
>[James J. Lippard:]
> Sure.  If all the copies get wiped out...
>
>[Mark Leeper:]
> I think that there is a misconception here.  Your species remains
> reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do
> not.
>[(Sorry, I lost the name.)]
> *If* just the genetic code is on file.  If all the information
> about your identity was put on file, you *could* come back...
>
>[Mark Leeper:]
> OK, so there is more of you on file than just your genetic code.
> Then a new copy is made.  I think the point still is valid.  As
> far as the world is concerned you are alive, but that is an
> illusion.  You are dead.  There just is a perfect copy around that
> thinks it is you.

I seem to remember something called the Turing Test.  In effect, if
you cannot tell the difference between two "things/people/etc...",
then there *is* *no* *difference*!!!!

> The fact that two or three of these things can be made is the
> clincher.  They can't all be the original.

By the definition above, why not?  At the time of their
creation/construction (whatever), they *are* the original.
(Remember, A difference that you cannot see is not a difference. And
don't pick on the word "see", you know what I mean.) I do agree,
that with time, they will probably not develop in the same way as
the first would have.  If you inform them that they were not the
first in the series, this would have an effect on them that the
first would not have encountered.  If you attempt to hide this from
them, that attempt would also have an effect on them. Though not as
severe as the prior one would.

> Take my word for it, if you are destroyed and replaced by an exact
> copy with your mind, you are dead.  The exact copy is only that.
> I know.  It happens to me every night.

The first sentence is apparently an attempt to "prove-by-authority",
I knew about, and disregarded, this method long before my college
class in logic. The second sentence I have already dealt with above.
The third, and fourth sentences seem to be mildly sarcastic and, if
that is how they were meant, should have had a "smiley" after them.
(I could be wrong, maybe he does die every night. My question then:
Do you beleive in, and or have proof of, reincarnation? :-) )

                                        E. L. Wiles

------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Support Small Bookstores
Date: 24 Sep 85 17:12:01 GMT

horton@fortune.UUCP (Randy horton) writes:
>I almost never purchase books at list price.  I usually patronize a
>local chain called Crown Books.  Their motto is *If you paid full
>price, you didn't buy it at Crown Books*.  I am not entirely sure
>that buying books only at discount prices has any effect on
>publishers, but I save money, and I support a business whose
>pricing policy I agree with.

I'm afraid that buying books at megachains such as Crown Books (and
Waldenbooks and B. Dalton's) does have an effect on publishers.

This effect is that only books that will sell millions of copies get
published at all.  This means a diminished number of titles, a limit
to experimentation in literature, and a glut of mediocre books by
"name" authors while interesting new authors can't get published.

See, Crown Books and their ilk buy books by the carload.  Go into
any of these megachain stores and you'll see shelves and shelves of
books, but these consist of hundreds of copies each of a limited
number of titles.  You'll note that these are mostly
recently-published books, too.  The chain stores don't feel they can
afford to keep a book around unless it's "moving."  If a book fails
to sell, they tear the covers off and return them to the publisher
AND THROW AWAY THE TEXT.  (They're not even allowed to GIVE away the
insides.)

On the other hand, independent bookstores buy books in much smaller
lots.  Go into any well-stocked independent bookstore and you'll
find many fewer copies, but of many more titles per foot of shelf
space.  Only the independents have books published more than two
years ago.  Only independents have books from small publishers and
obscure authors.  Only independents have personnel who really care
about books and will help you track down those out-of-print gems
you've read about in SF-LOVERS.  In my experience, the vast majority
of chain-store personnel might as well be working at K-Mart for all
they know or care about books.  (There are, of course, certain
notable exceptions.)

The problem is that the large chains buy books in such overwhelming
quantities that they become the publishers' major concerns.  Today,
there is an increasing trend for large publishers to buy manuscripts
that they think will sell, not to the public, but to the bookstore
chains!  The chains, of course, only buy books they know will sell
in the millions.  This leads to a glut of "Bestsellers" and a dearth
of experimentation by the publishers.

The authors, who, of course, want to sell to the large publishers,
may feel pressured to tailor their wares for mass consumption.  This
leads to swarms of Tolkien clones and "Bestsellers."  (Have you ever
noticed that "Bestseller" is a book category like "Non-Fiction" or
"Romance?"  "Bestsellers" are written not to be read, but to sell.)

Of course, by buying in such large quantities, the major chains can
afford to charge very low prices for their books.  The smaller
stores can't.  However, for the money you get personal service,
attention to detail, people who care, and an atmosphere that the
chain stores lack completely.

If your local bookstore doesn't have all these qualities, you can
probably find one that does nearby.  That is, if it hasn't gone out
of business.  Today, the smaller bookstores are in desperate straits
because of the size and buying power of the chains.  With a
book-buying populace as small as America's is today, competition for
your book dollars is fierce, and the chains are winning because of
their low prices and top locations.  Many small bookstores are being
forced out of existence.

Therefore, I buy my books at independent booksellers as a rule.
It's a small price to pay for continued variety and experimentation
in literature.

David D. Levine
(...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl)    [UUCP]
(teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA/CSNET]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Oct 85 1012-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #387
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 1 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 387

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Critics (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 24 Sep 85 12:55:28-EDT
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #377

>  Good writing can be about anything; great writing could probably
> be about nothing - not that this is necessarily admirable or
> desirable. Hoary plot devices must be discarded, wherever they
> occur.

These seem inconsistent.  Unless predicate calculus doesn't apply to
criticism, (Good writing can be about anything) ==> (good writing
can use a hoary plot device.)  Kind of like _Paradise_Lost_ and the
writings of James Branch Cabell and lots of others.  Perhaps Tucker
meant, ``Hoary plot devices should be used with caution.''

>  Real people don't expostulate for pages, like Jubal Harshaw or
> Lazarus Long

or Davis Tucker?

I know several people who do expostulate for hours, and sound very
much like Lazarus Long (except less competant).

>  As a concrete suggestion, I think more works by South American
> surrealist authors, of whom there are many, should be published in
> science fiction magazines and by science fiction publishing houses
> - and don't condemn it as boring literature, or highbrow, because
> much of it is exuberant, interesting, and well-written.

nI only know of Borges, and would very much like names of others.
Especially if their works are available in translation.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 21:42:39 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Future of SF
To: druri!dht@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU

>From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
>Some would have the field move strictly back to its roots, to the
>Great Idea and hard science and predictions. Others would have it
>move into the mind and the surreal, become experimental in all
>ways, and cast off the chains of its past. Both are doctrinaire and
>dogmatic.

  I think there is room for both, and for much more.  Whatever
readers are willing to pay for.
  SF is already to the stage where it is somewhat silly to think of
it as just one genre.  Just look at the enormous variety of things
discussed on this list.  Is anyone interested in as much as half of
these messages?  I am not.  Of course everyone picks a different
half.

>Quality writing means attention to details like plot twists and
>avoiding loose ends, characters who live and breathe and talk like
>they were people, not cartoon characters. Real people don't
>expostulate for pages, like Jubal Harshaw or Lazarus Long ...

  Lazarus Long is my favorite SF character!  And one of the most
believable (excluding the trivial).

>James Clavell worked just as hard to make "Shogun" believable as
>Herbert did with "Dune".

  I didn't find DUNE at all believable.  I don't see what people see
in that book.

>Motivation, of a society or an individual or a destiny, requires
>some kind of internal consistency, unless the novel is one that is
>deliberately inconsistent ...

  Agreed.  It should also be consistent with known (or extrapolated)
science.  The lack of this is what ruins most SF for me.
  The only deliberately inconsistent books I have ever enjoyed are
those by Robert Anoton Wilson.

>Hard science fiction needs to take a long look at its traditional
>insensitivity to its characters and its dialogue.

  All else being equal, I would agree.  But there is too little
really good hard SF for me to want there to be more stumbling blocks
in the way of potential new SF authors and new books.  I would hate
to see criticisms like this discourage Robert Forward (who is on the
net and possibly on SF-Lovers) from writing more stories.

>I myself would like to see a time when science fiction is no longer
>considered merely a "genre", but a large part of the literary
>scene, as biographies and spy novels are considered now.

  Or vice versa.  All other fields to be a sub-genre of SF.
  These literature types are incredibly stuck up.  Harper's just
published another critique of SF.  Of *ALL* SF.  The second in as
many years.  Criticizing all SF is as stupid as criticizing all
movies, or all paintings, or all music.  Especially since the critic
obviously didn't have any idea what he was talking about.
  Whenever a 'mainstream' author attempts SF, he generally uses plot
elements that have been obsolete in SF since the 1940s.

    Classical music is hardly being composed at all anymore ...

  But then, it doesn't have to be.  Music does not become dated.
SF does.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Brin, Sagan, etc.
Date: 23 Sep 85 19:08:00 GMT

>> I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who didn't like
>> Startide Rising. Can't figure out why it won the Hugo and Nebula.
>> If this was the best of the year it must have been a very bad
>> year.
>Agreed! Startide Rising was awful, with one of the most
>unconvincing, most cliched, and generally worst depictions of
>aliens I've come across in some time.  Possibly tied for "most
>overrated" with Gene Wulf's (sp?) extremely bad novel "Shadow of
>the Torturer".

Aw, c'mon guys.  Let's start a "Tastes Great" vs. "Less Filling"
argument.  It depends on what you read SF for.  Personally, I'm
happy to sit down with a text book when I want to learn science.

For reading SF, I like an engaging plot with plausible characters,
and I can even be convinced by the author to like a story that I
knew I'd hate, e.g., NEUROMANCER.  Brin and Wolfe render pleasant
dreams in mutually different but fresh ways that allow me to share
the dream by that marvelous translating device, the book.

As far as details of science, which are the more important details
to get right, quark-quark interactions and alien respiratory systems
or the examination of what happens to individuals and cultures as a
result of certain scientific/speculative conditions occuring?

Again, strictly personal opinion, but I prefer absorbing the gestalt
of the forest to the minutiae of the trees -- feels more liberating
and expanding, don't you know?

I happen to agree with you about Greg Bear; he paints nice pictures
that have a high degree of technical verisimilitude.  (I've talked
to the man and he has a manic sense of research and does *not* have
a science degree or job.  As far as I know, he's a full time fiction
writer, which is a truly endangered species.)  But as nice (and
moving!) as the pictures are, they haven't (yet) approached the
breathtaking grandness of Brin or Wolfe.  Admittedly, STARTIDE is
direct descendant of 50's and 60's Heinlein-style SF, but there is a
depth and texture to it that Heinlein acheived but rarely and most
others of the era not at all.  The Wolfe is almost *sui generis* ,
but it, too has a richness of plot and character that is hard to
match.

To not like something is one thing, but to dismiss it as "bad".

I wish more people would swallow the idea that it is possible not to
like a good book and to love a mediocre one.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: sun!blueskye@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tim Ryan)
Subject: Science Fiction, Art, Criticism, and Sam Delany
Date: 25 Sep 85 02:22:15 GMT

Someone (sorry, but I don't remember your name), recently requested
that s/he would like to hear what a "real critic" had to say about
life, the universe, and science fiction.  Lo, and behold, there is a
major critical review of the field in the October, 1985 edition of
_Harper's_ magazine (available at better bookstores). Below you will
find quotes from this essay.

NECESSARY DISCLAIMERS:
        1. I personally do not agree with everything that is quoted
here.
        2. The material in quotes is Copyright, 1985, Harper's
Magazine Foundation, and is used without permission.

That said, the author of the essay is Luc Sante', who has written
for the _New York Review of Books_, _Manhattan_, _inc._, &c.  This
is a real, professional, mainstream critic here, folks, so listen up
to what some people in the "real world" :-) think about our beloved
SF.

(deleted)

Again, I disavow any personal connection or support of statement in
quotes.  So don't flame me personally (please! I mean it!).

Tim Ryan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Oct 85 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #388
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 388

Today's Topics:

          Books - Aldiss & Hubbard & McKinley & First SF,
          Television - Alfred Hitchcock Presents &
                  Amazing Stories,
          Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Excerpts From Brian Aldiss interview
Date: 29 Sep 85 23:03:51 GMT

EXCERPTS: "Brian Aldiss: Helliconia Calling", by Mike Barson
HEAVY METAL, October 1985

HM: ...Now that it's complete, are you pleased... with the
Helliconia trilogy?

BA: Oh, yes... part of the impulse to write Helliconia was to get on
my horse again and write a big, solid novel that *no* one could say
wasn't sf.

HM: Which was the charge leveled at some of your experimental
novels, such as "Report On Probability A". Did the controversy and
criticism bother you?

BA: Not really. With "Report"... I knew what I wanted to do in it,
and I feel I did it... Perhaps it was just too much of a surprise.
I'd always thought science fiction was *about* surprise; that a
novel that took you by the throat was what everyone loved. It was
what *I* loved most - that wonderful sense of dislocation that the
best sf induced... Well, I miscalculated. In England they hated it;
over here there was just a stunned silence. Everyone was asking
"What is this shit Aldiss *doing*? He's finished; it's all over; he
can't even think of a bloody plot." It was really quite funny, the
vehemence of the plot. But now, "Report" is in its fifth printing,
which proves what I've always thought: the science fiction
readership is willing to keep working at something until they
understand it. They're extraordinarily hungry for an intellectual
challenge.

HM: What about the shags [hacks] of today? Do you see a strong field
out there now producing vital, original works of science fiction?

BA: ...at the moment, there seems to be a great deal of stagnation
in the field. No natural subversives have popped up to take the
place of Phillip K. Dick... What I loved mot about him was, he had
the pure quill, and he never deserted science fiction.

HM: There seems to be a lot of back-to-the-basics sf... these days,
stuff that consciously is striving for the feel of the thirties.

BA: Nostalgia doesn't interest me; it's an awful disease, and
everyone today seems infected with it... It's very insular, and it
doesn't talk to the world as the best sf should.

HM: And then there's fantasy...

BA: Fantasy really is literature for teenagers. Teenagers don't have
a lot of money, but what they do have is a lot of time. So they'll
read all nine volumes of Stephen Donaldson, or whomever...

HM: You once... [said] that all genres eventually wear out... do you
see that already happening?

BA: ...now, I don't look upon science fiction as a genre at all.
Rather, it *contains* genres: space opera, the catastrophe novel,
and so on... The term "sf" is just a publishing category. There's no
reason why authors need to subscribe to someone's limitation of the
term. If you think of science fiction as a *mode*, it's much easier
to write. That way one can move from one mode to another without
having to worry whether or not he's writing science fiction...

------------------------------

From: berman@isi-vaxa.ARPA (Richard Berman)
Date: 30 Sep 1985 1045-PDT (Monday)
Subject: LRH's early SF

I've seen several mentions (two, to be exact) about Hubbard having
destroyed all his early SF.  Actually, only one person asserted this
on SF-LOVERS.  The other queried it.  A friend of mine knows
Hubbard's literary agent, and this is simply not the case.  In fact,
recently (1.5 to 2 years ago) I purchased an anthology which
included Fear, Typewriter in the Sky, and, my favorite, Slaves of
Sleep.  This was a *new* book.  But all of these stories were
written in the 40's.

I hope this clears up the rumor.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Beauty by Robin McKinley
Date: 23 Sep 85 15:41:50 GMT

> From: Bart <SEARS%hplabs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
> Those of you who liked _The_Blue_Sword_ by Robin McKinley will be
> happy to hear that they have just released _Beauty_ in paperback.
> This is a full length version of the _Beauty_and_the_Beast_ tale.
> I would recommend either of these books for anyone who likes well
> written fantasy with a strong female protagonist.

*Grumble*

I'm not quite ready to flame this, but at least I'll grumble a bit.
What is this "strong female protagonist" puppy-barf?  I've never
been interested in seeking out books with "strong female
protagonists," I just like good books.  Robin McKinley's BEAUTY is a
very, very good book.  Her writing is as simple as Gene Wolfe's is
complex, and every bit as delightful to read.  As any good book
does, it has a good, fun story, and a great deal more.  I recommend
it to anyone who enjoys reading.

                SKZB

------------------------------

From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ???
Date: 26 Sep 85 23:41:36 GMT

I'd like to suggest a Clifford Simak book for someone's first
science fiction reading.  I've long thought that *City*, among other
good books of his, might be a promising candidate.  For those who
think that short stories are good to begin with, the book is
organized as semi-independent stories on a theme.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
(415) 960-9367
..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Alfred Hitchcock Presents (NBC, Sunday 8.30PM Pacific)
Date: 30 Sep 85 05:10:33 GMT

Good Evening.. Tonight we embark upon a journey linking the past,
the present, and (we hope) the future. The first episode of the new
NBC series "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" has just premiered, and it
looks to be a winner.

The worst part of AHP is the timeslot. Coming right after "Amazing
Stories," if that Spielberg series continues to be as bad as the
first episode was, it'll scare off a lot of potential viewers. Maybe
if they switch timeslots...

The opening and closing scenes are computer enhanced and colored
versions of the original "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" introductions
and trailers.  They are very well done, and Alfred (dead a number of
years) looks as chipper as ever. The wonders of Technology...

The opening story is that of a couple. He is an English professor,
just moved into town to teach at a new college. She is a blushing
bride, a dancer, and an ex-student. She is also quite unstable
emotionally (driven home quite forcefully by an opening scene of
quick camera cuts from a group of cowboys roping and branding a
horse and a group of doctors restraining and giving her
electroshock, causing her to awake from her nightmare. Very powerful
image, and quite rare for TV). There is an obvious reference to the
movie "Frances" here, and they use a Jessica Lange clone (named Beth
Miller, who did a good acting job here) as well.

The only time our young bride is happy is dancing. She goes to a
dance class with a new female acquaintance, and it is the only time
she opens up and smiles. The longer she dances (and she
unfortunately dances too long, the only real gripe with the show --
a bit of sloppy editing that made me start thinking of MTV spinoffs)
the wider the smile.

So happy, in fact, that she decides to walk home. On the way, she
meets a number of nefarious characters, sees herself followed,
chased, and dashes her way into her haven of safety, home.

And is attacked. You never see Him, but there are a couple of VERY
powerful scenes including one of her being pulled back down a flight
of stairs and around a corner by someone that never shows on camera.

Her husband is called to the center where she is taken. He talks to
the police ("There's nothing we can do. Even if we find the guy,
it'll be almost impossible to make it stick"), and takes her home.
On the way home, she suddenly turns around and yells "Thats him!" He
stops the car, she's sure its him, so he gets out and follows. There
is a fight, ending with the rapist being strangled and killed.

He returns to his wife, and says "It's finished, you're safe" and
starts driving home again. About two blocks later, she's yelling
"There he is, that's him!" again as the classic look of horror comes
over the husbands face (Rod Serling would have sold his soul for
that camera shot....).

A very powerful and classic retelling of an Alfred Hitchcock
Presents story, this episode was as good as the Spielberg fiasco was
bad. I only hope that it gets a chance to rise above its predecessor
in the timeslots and show the world that episodic anthologies can
work. Don't miss this stuff, folks...

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
{decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Amazing Stories (NBC, Sunday, 8PM Pacific)
Date: 30 Sep 85 04:49:36 GMT

(spoiler warning -- don't read if you don't like plot discussions)

The much heralded "Amazing Stories", conceived and brought to you by
NBC and executive producer Steven (Jaws, ET, Close Encounters of the
Third Kind) Spielberg made its debut tonight with great fanfare and
very disappointing results.

If the first espisode is typical of the tone of the series, it will
probably turn into an unmitigated disaster. "Ghost Train," which was
directed by Spielberg, stars (in relative order of appearance) the
mystical/senile grandfather, the loving but terribly practical
father, the starry-eyed, open minded boy, the obligatory disgruntled
but dedicated and loving piece of cardboard (uh, wife) who gets
appropriately hysterical upon command, and a cast of stereotypes
upon demand (vote more most unrealistic stereotype goes to the Black
Psychiatrist called out -- the Black Psychiatrist successfully
holding down a practice in farmland Iowa...) No names are given to
any character because none of them rise enough above their
stereotypes to make names useful.

                         Begin plot summary

The story opens with the father bringing Ompah home. Father has
bought the land that Ompah grew up on and built a house there, and
they are now going to take care of him as any good Family would.
When they get there, Ompah declares that they've built the house in
a very bad place. A story is told (to Starry-Eyed Boy, with Father
listening in) about engine 407, that derailed on that very spot 75
years ago (killing everyone) because a boy fell asleep on the track
waiting for that train to take him to friends over the horizon.
Dialog:

    SEB: Ompah, were you that little boy?
    Ompah: *heartfelt sob* I still am, son.

He tells the SEB that he survived because the brakeman couldn't bear
to run him over and locked up the wheels, causing everything to run
off the track and the locomotive stopped 15 yards from him (he, of
course, didn't wake up despite the noise and the vibration of
sleeping on the track, and the brakeman had good enough vision to
see a boy sized bundle on a track, at night, from far enough away to
be able to stop in front of it...). He also says that the train is
going to come and pick him up, since he should have been on it 75
years ago.

Ompah (their word, not mine...) marks off the location of the old
tracks (cute shot of him spray painting his way across the yard and
over the satellite dish) to see what parts of the house are going to
be destroyed.  Ompah is trying to take the valuables out of that
part of the house ("Make the insurance claim easier") when the Black
Psychiatrist fills him full of Demerol. Night, night, Ompah. SEB
goes into hysterics, female cardboard says "You know we wouldn't do
anything to hurt your Ompah, don't you?"

SEB goes to sleep, ear firmly pressed to the rails of his model
train.  Lights in the window, a far off whistle. SEB wakes up, looks
out window, special effect right out of Close encounters, SEB starts
yelling things like "It's coming!" and other intelligent comments.
Father and Mother spend a couple of minutes bitching about
nightmares and discussing who will go sooth their child. SEB dashes
downstairs to wake Ompah (demerol and all).  Parents come down just
in time for a reaction shot, a couple of quick Ohmygods and to watch
the train come in through the kitchen wall. Mother attempts to go
into hysterics, but looks like a spastic chicken. Father stares. Out
comes the Conductor, the Engineer, and the Brakeman. Engineer peers
into refrigerator, pulls out a six pack, which he shakes and says
"don't know what it is, but it sounds wet. We'll check it out on the
road" (that is a cheap shot...). Brakeman finds the Mr. Coffee
machine and refills his thermos with a "thanks, Mr. Coffee!" (that's
another cheap shot). Conductor does an "all aboard!" and Ompah says
"My ticket might not be good anymore, I bought it 75 years ago." The
conductor assures him that it is, and that they've been waiting for
him to join them for a long time.

SEB wants to go with him ("Who'll tell me stories from now on?") but
the Wise Grandfather tells him "Remember all the stories I told you?
As long as you remember them, I'll still be telling them to you."

Wise Grandfather tells them that he'll see them in a hundred years,
apologizes to Father and Mother for not staying longer, gets on
train, and train pulls out of the kitchen. Mother, no longer
hysterical or spastic, says "Who's our insurance man?" Obligatory
cheap shot of sparking refrigerator.  Final shot of train pulling
off into the heavens. End story.  Fortunately.

                          end plot summary

While watching this, all I could think of was "ET meets twilight
zone" and I find that both lose. Spielberg said that they were going
to emphasize fantasy because the cost of special effects in a SF
anthology was exorbitant. I can't disagree with that, but they took
a story with a lot of possibilities (a variant of "The Hell Bound
Train" and gutted it.  There was no attempt at character
development, after five minutes you knew what the ending was going
to be. They could have played it for laughs or tried to do a serious
traditional "Twilight Zone" style episode.  Instead they took a semi
serious track and then tossed in a bunch of cheap reaction shots.
The end result is a mess with no impact, no real direction, and a
number of attempted one liners that fail because they seem out of
place. I think the script was a little weak, but I don't think this
is the fault of the writer (I didn't catch their name,
unfortunately). As director, Spielberg could have taken this script
in either direction and done it successfully. By his unwillingness
to add a direction to the story and trying to do both, he fails.

I now see why copies of the show weren't made available in advance.
There is a lot riding on Amazing and the return of the anthology,
and if this is the episode they used to start off the seriese, I
don't hold out a lot of hope for future episodes. Perhaps Spielberg
just couldn't handle the 30 minute format, or perhaps they haven't
really figured out what they want to do with it.

I hope it gets better. I don't think it can get much worse.
Fortunately, a local PBS station has started playing "Outer Limits"
at 11PM on Sundays, so the evening isn't a complete waste. I just
wish Spielberg had done a better job of recreating the classic
anthology format. All he did in the opening episode of "Amazing
Stories" was mock it.

Chuq Von Rospach
nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
{decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid}!nsc!chuqui

------------------------------

From: dartvax!waltervj@topaz.rutgers.edu (walter jeffries)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission
Date: 28 Sep 85 02:43:34 GMT

hmmm... about the replacement of the atoms of our body...  According
to a reliable source, my doctor, it takes about seven years for our
body to completely replace all of its components and even then not
*everything* get's replaced as some toxins can accumulate
(radioactive items...).  By the way, it is the bones which take the
longest to replace all of their atoms.  Other parts are preplaced
MUCH more frequently.

Walter.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Oct 85 0940-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #389
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 389

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anvil & Asiomv & Bear & Budrys &
                      Leguin & Leiber & Zelazny (3 msgs),
              Films - Back to the Future,
              Television - Star Trek,
              Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Price Increase &
                      Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!gvg@topaz.rutgers.edu (gvg)
Subject: Re: Re: Boring races
Date: 29 Sep 85 17:42:00 GMT

>     I'll have to appeal to the net for the title and author of
>this one.  I read a book some years ago about invaders who conquer
>Earth and then discover, to their considerable dismay, that they
>have conquered a race that is more intelligent.
>     One of the major aliens is (as best I recall) General Horsip.

PANDORA'S PLANET by Christopher Anvil.  Based on a short novel that
was printed in ANALOG in about 1959 or 1960.  There was actually a
whole series of stories about this race of orderly (but rather
unimaginative) aliens and (what ends up being) their military
collaboration with us.
                        GV Goebel

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.rutgers.edu (john)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS digest entry
Date: 29 Sep 85 17:49:00 GMT

>And what about *The End of Eternity* which acts as a prelude (from
>the far future) for the entire series?
>
>Michael McNeil

End of Eternity starts in the far future but ends in the past just
20 years before Joseph Schwartz is sent to the future in "Pebble in
the Sky". Its funny how he is sent to exactly the right place and
time to prevent the destruction of the human race. You might think
that someone was viewing alternate realities and decided to
implement a change for the better.  Perhaps in Foundation and Earth
we will discover that the "Doll" that he stepped over was actually a
time machine from Noyes and Andrew.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

From: calmasd!gail@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Brin, Sagan, etc.
Date: 27 Sep 85 18:29:37 GMT

jimb@ISM780B.UUCP writes:
>I happen to agree with you about Greg Bear; he paints nice pictures
>that have a high degree of technical verisimilitude.  (I've talked
>to the man and he has a manic sense of research and does *not* have
>a science degree or job.  As far as I know, he's a full time
>fiction writer, which is a truly endangered species.)  But as nice
>(and moving!) as the pictures are, they haven't (yet) approached
>the breathtaking grandness of Brin or Wolfe.

If you haven't read them yet, read _Eon_ (just out in hardback), or
_Blood Music_ (also just out in hardback), or _The Infinity
Concerto_ (paperback, 1984), all by Greg Bear.  Dave Brin's books
are lots of fun, I enjoyed them tremendously, but Greg's books
consistently have more depth, and are still entertaining.  _Eon_ in
particular really blew me away.  _The Infinity Concerto_ deserves a
second reading.

I suppose I should mention that these folks are both good friends...

Gail Bayley Hanrahan
Calma Company, San Diego
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail

------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Who are you?
Date: 30 Sep 85 18:04:56 GMT

klr@hadron.UUCP (Kurt L. Reisler) writes about a story in which a
revolutionary was tortured by being repeatedly killed, then restored
as a clone.  This puts me in mind of "Rogue Moon" by Algis Budrys
(more famous these days as a reviewer than as a writer).  I think
that "Rogue Moon" is relevant to the topic, but because it is
relatively obscure and hard to find, I'll post here some of its
important concepts (hopefully, not enough to make this article a
spoiler).

In this book, an alien base is discovered on the Moon at about the
same time that matter transmission is becoming feasible.  The alien
base kills anyone who walks into it if they violate certain obscure
and incomprehensible rules.  For example, it's certain death to
write the word "yes" with either hand, but you can write "no".
Nobody has been able to survive for more than a few minutes inside.

As it happens, the matter-transmission process works by making a
copy of the thing being transmitted.  If a person is transmitted,
the thought processes of the original and duplicate are identical
for the first ~30 minutes, allowing instantaneous telepathy (even
over interplanetary distances) between the two for this initial
period.  After that, the two start becoming different enough that
telepathy is impossible.  Naturally, someone tries sending a copy of
an intrepid adventurer into the deadly base.  Unfortunately, being
in telepathic contact with the duplicate when he dies drives the
adventurer insane.

Enter the protagonist of the story, a professional death-defier.
This man (whose name I forget) is a race-car driver, high-diver,
stunt man, and general lunatic who doesn't mind the thought of
death.  He is brought into the project because the head of the
project thinks (correctly) that he might be able to stand being in
telepathic contact with a copy while the copy dies.  The bulk of the
book details his relationship with the head of the project as he
attempts to penetrate the alien artifact, "dying" several times a
day.

This is one book in which the main character dies in chapter 2, and
dies several hundred times more in the course of the story.  The
real subject of the story is how a man deals with death, brought
into focus by that death being his own.  I found it fascinating,
although it might not be for you (even if you can find a copy).
Like much of Budrys' fiction, "Rogue Moon" is darkly introspective
and gripping on a psychological level, dealing with the concept of
identity.  Three stars (out of five).

David D. Levine
(...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl)    [UUCP]
(teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA/CSNET]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 85 13:03 PDT
From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA
Subject: LeGuin

 For you other lower-left coasters out there (that's Souther
California); Ursula K. LeGuin will be interviewed next Friday, Oct.
4, at 10PM on "Hour 25", the science fiction program on KPFK, 90.7
FM.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 85  9:11:33 EDT
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: In Defense Of Leiber

"Is Leiber a superficial writer?"

Gee, I've enjoyed reading Leiber's work so much, over so many years,
the question would never even occur to me.  Novels like (off the top
of my head):
   THE WANDERER -- one of the classic "big object hits earth"
      stories, with unexpected (but typical for Leiber) whimsy
   THE SILVER EGGHEADS
    A SPECTER IS HAUNTING TEXAS
and a (too long to) list of stories unforgettable in both title and
content [ Take it away, jayembee ], including Faf & the G Mouser.

I haven't been as into Leiber's more recent long works, but his old
stuff has lost none of its delight and charm.

------------------------------

From: randvax!jim@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly)
Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom speculation (the spoiler continued)
Date: 25 Sep 85 18:26:37 GMT

>> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in
>> fact the gemstone of a ring.  Also Corwin is not dead, but is
>> masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much.
>       Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in
>       Ganelon/Oberon...

That one bothered me a lot: I think Zelazny didn't know Ganelon was
Oberon until a couple of books later.  There was too much that
didn't fit in Guns of Avalon.  I wish Zelazny would plot the whole
series before writing the first book ... it seems to have worked
well for Tolkien, Eddings (Belgariad), Wolfe (New Sun), and Cook
(Black Company).

Did anybody else notice that the blue crystal cavern is a parallel
with the Arthurian legend?  That other Merlin was imprisoned in a
crystal cave by Nimue, a sorceress he was teaching, according to one
version.
        Jim Gillogly
        {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim
        jim@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Trumps_of_Doom
Date: 26 Sep 85 00:51:47 GMT

>       The burning question, where in Shadow is Corwin?

It would seem that Corwin has created his own "multiverse" of
Shadows extending from Amber. The interesting question that arises
is how Chaos will be linked to that other set of shadows and will
the Chaos power of "fetching" things work in there too?

Also, I would suspect that only Corwin can walk his set of Shadows
for now. He is the only one who has walked his Pattern and now is in
the same position as Dworkin. Considering the fact that Dworkin was
insane.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Zelany's Trumps_of_Doom
Date: 27 Sep 85 16:35:13 GMT

>       The burning question, where in Shadow is Corwin?  At
> several times in the book it is mentioned that he's now crazy,
> also other things.  I feel that he's crazy due to Amber blood
> having been spilled on the pattern that he created.  I also think
> that Luke would be responsible for this act and probably grapped
> Corwin and then found out about Avalon's pink powder through
> Corwin.

My impression is that the pattern he created could only be damaged
by his own blood, or that of his descendants.  Presumably Merlin
didn't do it.

I'm not certain of my interpretation, however.

                SKZB

------------------------------

From: cae780!gordon@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brian Gordon)
Subject: Re: The town in Back to the Future
Date: 26 Sep 85 20:47:03 GMT

>From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>I just watched Gremlins which was free with Teen Wolf, and guess
>what I recognized?  The town was the same as Back to the Future,
>but with some signs changed.  They never gave a really good view of
>the clock tower, but the movie theatre he crashed into on his way
>back was the same one where Snow White was enjoyed by the little
>monsters until they "blowed up, sir".
>
>Just another proof it was a back lot.

I could have sworn that, just a couple of months ago, I "revealed"
-- in this very newsgroup -- that the current tour of Universal
Studios (like, in Hollywood) goes through that very "town square",
and that it is specifically mentioned as such by the tour guide.

FROM:   Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc.
UUCP:   tektronix!teklds!cae780!gordon
        {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amdcad!cae780!gordon
        {nsc, hplabs, resonex, qubix, leadsv}!cae780!gordon
USNAIL: 5302 Betsy Ross Drive, Santa Clara, CA  95054

------------------------------

From: lear@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (eliot lear)
Subject: ST Back in New York!!!
Date: 1 Oct 85 04:54:42 GMT

Finally, Star Trek is back on WPIX New York!  Now maybe the TREK
trivia will really hit the net!!

[lear@topaz.rutgers.edu]
[{allegra,seismo}!topaz!lear]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 85 09:46 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Light-saber construction... some questions

Mark Rosenstein suggests making a lightsaber with a high-energy
laser, a mirror, and some Sinclair molecule chain.  An excellent
theoretical model, but I have some slight doubt that it's
technically feasible (even given Known Space-level engineering).

Q1: Can a pulley/monofilament arrangement possibly be precise enough
    to extend the mirror exactly to an integer multiple of the
    laser's wavelength?

Q2: How rugged (and thus heavy) would the mirror have to be in order
    to reflect a laser beam capable of cutting through a human arm
    in one cut (remember, flesh is mostly water & notoriously
    difficult to cut cleanly with a laser).  Are there any
    theoretical limits of the efficiency-of-reflection of a
    first-surface mirror that would come into play here?

Q3: How can the saber maintain full power in the act of cutting
    through something, given that the object being cut would
    probably block a portion of the beam?  It seems to me as if the
    laser generator in the handgrip would have to be capable of
    sustaining full-power emission with its internal mirrors and
    exciters, as it would be unable to depend on reinforcement from
    the end mirror.

Q4: Could the monfilament handle the high temperatures probably
    present in the blade-beam path (ionization, etc.)?

Q5: Would two lightsaber blades of this variety exhibit the behavior
    that has been demonstrated (rigidity similar to that of a
    matter- based blade; sparks when two blades hit; etc.).

Q6: How much laser back-glare would be present during a cutting
    operation?  High-energy lasers of the sort postulated here are
    quite capable of blinding a bystander simply by their reflection
    off of a semi-reflective surface; I'd be afraid to use one
    without frequency-selective goggles.

Any ideas, folks?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 85 16:50:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA

   I sort of thought that Obi-wan Kenobi was OB1, the first clone of
someone w/ the initials O.B.  "Original Body" might be a good
suggestion too....but that would imply that the person was developed
from scratch, not cloned....

                Richard Hartman

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF price increase (avoidinance thereof)
Date: 27 Sep 85 17:23:18 GMT

> and by getting stuff from the paperback-exchange rack here at
> work. (Every workplace ought to have one of those latter -- even
> if your organization's library isn't interested, or you work at a
> place with no library, you can start one yourself. Just bring in a
> dozen books and stack them somewhere with a sign saying "Take some
> -- leave some" or the like.

Or start a science fiction club at work and ask for donations to a
library that people can borrow from.  Works great here!  (The
librarian is rapidly being squeezed out of his office by the books,
but that's another story.)
                                   Evelyn C. Leeper
                                   ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc.
Date: 27 Sep 85 23:13:55 GMT

The matter transmission might destroy a soul if we had one.  What
are the characteristics of the soul, if one exists?
        Consider what matter transmission could do for surgery: load
someone into memory and just edit them, removing cancers and such.
Maybe even take out the brain of a youthful backup and substitute
the one of the aging current one, and PRESTO! instant youth.  Is
someone legally dead when they only exist on magnetic tape or
whatever we use for storing them?  Suppose there's a glitch in the
tape when you're restored, heavens forbid....
        Think of what could be possible for transporation: assuming
the ability to digitise someone and recreate them later, it might be
able to post a copy of yourself to net.net-people and be created for
a conversation.  Or famines and droughts: take the digitisation of
several acre-feet of water and just supply the energy from a nuclear
power plant and create water or food!  There's a lot more than souls
in danger here- transporation, factories, and much more would be
made completely obscelescent...
                                        Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Oct 85 0959-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #390
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 390

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Critics (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re:  critics, Shakespeare, art and all that
Date: 27 Sep 85 13:25:04 GMT

showard@udenva.UUCP (showard) writes:
>   Actually, most people who read Shakespeare in the 20th Century
>do it for one of two reasons:
>   1.) They have been taught (usually by English professors) that
>Shakespeare is, by definition, the greatest writer ever.  ...
>   2.) They want to show that they are "cultured"--even though they
>don't really enjoy it they feel they ought to, ...

My introduction to Shakespeare occurred as a child in the 1950s
through several productions on TV. I remember in particular
Midsummer Night's Dream, Hamlet, Macbeth, King Lear, and a
production of The Tempest. I found the stories fascinating at the
time, although some of the dialogue was too strange to my young ear
and of course a lot of the word play escaped me. The bottom line is
that my siblings and I sat through entire productions of
Shakespeare's plays without having our attentions lag.

  1. No "English professor" told this 9-year-old boy that W. S. is
     the greatest writer of all time. I grew up in a working-class
     family and we watched Shakespeare because we WANTED to: i.e.,
     we related to the story lines in some way.

  2. 9-year-old boys do NOT worry about appearing cultured. Unless,
     of course, they're yuppie puppies.

  3. I find it hard to believe that other people haven't developed
     a taste for W. S. in exactly this manner. Many thousands of
     children across the country watched the same productions I
     did.

Moral: generalizations are always dangerous, and reverse snobbery
ain't all that different from plain old snobbery.

                          Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 85 14:19 EDT
From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Good Critics

Rather than get bogged down in an abstract definition of good vs.
bad criticism, I would just like to note that Ian Watt's _Conrad in
the 19th Century_ is, to my mind, an exemplar of informed, sensible
commentary on an author's work.  I think that people on both sides
of the debate on criticism could benefit by reading it; and if it
gets you to read Conrad, so much the better.

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re:  critics
Date: 23 Sep 85 16:11:08 GMT

> But we don't READ Shak. because he's the same spinner of
> rollicking hilarious yarns TO US that he was to his less educated
> contemporaries.  That was exactly the point I made when I said
> that the classics may have been great fun when they were
> contemporary, but that as their language and their references
> become increasingly obscure to us, we read them with more
> difficulty and for different reasons.  For that matter, we still
> read the sonnets of Shakespeare, and I don't believe they're
> susceptible of being read on your "onion" model; they don't work
> as easy doggerel and also as compact, dazzlingly inventive,
> intricate constructions of nested metaphors that economically
> illuminate the depths of human emotion.

This is important enough to the point of the discussion that I think
it worth hitting on.  My point is exactly that--Shakespeare IS fun,
the very first time.  If fifteen-year-old Stevie hadn't seen a
production of Midsummer Night's Dream that left him in stitches,
then a production of Macbeth that left him depressed but triumphant,
he would never have taken the time to look for the rest of what is
there.  I won't comment on the sonnets; I know even less about
poetry than I do about fiction.

I should admit here, though, that whoever it was who claimed to have
really enjoyed ULYSSES on the first reading very neatly cut the rug
out from under most of my arguments.  Good going, whoever that was.
I been nailed.

> Why should a novel or a play be required to provide instant
> gratification in some way, then to draw the reader into more
> profound levels of discourse?  This has never been required of
> poetry, or at least not since poetry moved away from the song form
> in the Middle Ages.  And it's still not required of those
> "classics" which almost all of us read, and read in translation.

It is exactly what IS required, or at least present, in those few of
the classics that "almost all of us read."  As I say, I know little
of poetry, but are you quite sure of what you say here?

> We can allow Steve Brust to reserve the use of the term "great
> literature," in his private lexicon, for description of art that
> doubles as entertainment and hence gives pleasure to more people
> than art that doesn't.

Well, this point (first brought up, I believe, by Mr. Ingogly) is
certainly hitting me where I live.  I hate it when people
promiscuously redefine words to make their own points, so I don't
enjoy being accused of doing it.  Especially when, looking back over
my own contributions, it seems I really have.  I will now procede to
back down and, I hope, build up to my point again.

Writer's who give me the impression of consciously and deliberately
writing over the heads of much of their audience annoy me.  In
attempting to find the reason for this annoyance, and so determine
if it is my problem, their problem, both, or neither, I have come to
certain conclusions.  This question actually matters to me on a very
practical level.  I need to know, for myself, "what makes good
writing."

The conclusions I have come to are, breifly summarized, good
(fiction) writing is that which exposes and lays bare areas of life
that are normally hidden, and does it in using language that can be
understood.  You mention the classics: can you name one art form
(painting, music, etc) in which those works which are now regarded
as the classics were not, at the time, entertainment for the masses?
Doesn't this indicate something?

> But all this juggling of subjective judgments -- "Well, *I* had
> fun with Hamlet" ... "I found Ulysses hilarious!" ... "Melville is
> great fun!" ...  "This work FAILS as literature, because it wasn't
> fun [for me]." ... is getting us nowhere.
>
> Judith Abrahms {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith

Oh, I don't know.  I'm enjoying it.  I'm also learning something.

                SKZB

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Excerpts from Harper's article on Science Fiction
Date: 29 Sep 85 17:49:11 GMT

EXCERPTS: "The Temple Of Boredom: Science Fiction, No Future" by Luc
Sante (1)

HARPER'S MAGAZINE, OCTOBER 1985 (2)

(deleted)

without permission (substantially edited).

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Good First SF stories
Date: 23 Sep 85 16:15:33 GMT

> I had an English teacher who was felt that that no great English
> literature had been written since the time of Milton.  She didn't
> mean that nothing worth reading had been written, just nothing
> exceptionally good.  Her opinion of science fiction was extremely
> low.
>                                       -Castor Fu
>                                       ihnp4!lanl!dspo!fu

Interesting.  I know someone who has taught English.  She has an MA,
with a Shakespeare specialty.  She also feels that no great
literature has been written since, approximately, Milton.  She feels
the exceptions are mostly found in Science Fiction, Mysteries, and
children's books.
                        SKZB

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Oct 85 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #391
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 391

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bischoff & Helprin & Varley,
                Magazines - Some Reveiws,
                Television - New TV Shows (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Book Prices (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: STAR HOUNDS book 1: THE INFINITE BATTLE by David Bischoff
Date: 30 Sep 85 15:18:42 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "Laura Shemzak. Irreverent, rebellious, beautiful. A woman with an
  impossible mission: to rescue her beloved brother, the most
  brilliant physicist of the Empire, from the awesome aliens, the
  Jaxdron.

  To succeed, Laura must gain control of the top-secret Mark XT
  "blip-ship". And to do that, she is forced into an uneasy alliance
  with the notorious space pirate, the bitter, cynical, Captain Tars
  Northern.

  And that's when Laura's adventure really begins..."

Well, if I hadn't read some books by Bischoff already (DAY OF THE
DRAGONSTAR and NIGHT OF THE DRAGONSTAR with Monteleone, both very
very good, and STAR FALL all by himself), I wouldn't have purchased
this one after reading the jacket description.

Laura is an intelligence agent for the Earth-based Empire, though
she isn't all that keen on Empire politics. Her brother is a
research physicist. The society in which they both grew up frowns on
personal relationships (husband and wife, brother and sister, etc.),
so their knowledge of each other and their ties are unusual. The
physics of the period is much advanced, and Laura's brother is on
the forefront of research; at least the Jaxdron know this. Further,
Laura has been engineered with a number of implants in order to
fully interface with her blip-ship and, of course, to more easily
carry out her intelligence operations.

The book contains lots of futuristic "slang", which is not out of
place, but it takes some getting used to. Captain Northern and his
crew are somewhat hard to fathom, but I expect to learn more in the
next book of the series. It's obvious that Northern and Laura will
eventually admit their attraction to each other, but in this book
they primarily joust.

I enjoyed the book, but not as much as the previously-mentioned
ones. The characters don't have much depth, but that criticism too
should fade after another book appears. The story contains lots of
interesting ideas, and I like the scenario. I still haven't figured
out what Northern and his crew plan to do, and there's obviously
lots more to come.

I rate this book as 2.5 stars (good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 85 01:51:08 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Comparing books to "Winter's Tale" ...

Someone recently compared a book to Helprin's "Winter's Tale" saying
that if you liked the Helprin book you would like the other (I think
it was "Little, Big").  I hope that the book was better than the
Helprin book.  Comparing something to Helprin's book is a definite
putdown as far as I am concerned.  "Winter's Tale" was the WORST
book I read in all of 1984; it was a book clearly written for
pseudo-intellectuals.  The plot was weak with far too much
dependence on deus ex machina and rabbits in hats, the
characterization was absurd (none of the characters --except maybe
the newspaper publisher and the horse-- made the slightest bit of
sense in any way, shape, or form), and the prose was (to be polite)
overly verbose.  I read the entire book waiting for something
(ANYTHING) evenly vaguely rational to happen.  The only thing
positive I can say for the book is that it wasn't predictable.  It
was nonetheless DULL!!

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; computer-related names
Date: 1 Oct 85 17:49:07 GMT

carl@proper.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes:
> The characters in there all had computer-related names in common.
> You all must know what "foo" is as in "Lisa Foo" and "foobar".
> Furthermore, we have a guy called Hal- and you all must remember
> 2001: A Space Odyssey.  And Kludge is explained, and of course we
> have an Osborne in there.  It's quite intentional, I think...
> Carl Greenberg

Geez, do I feel dense.

Detective Osborne: If you've never heard of Adam Osborne or Osborne
Computers, none of this is going to mean a lot to you!

Lisa Foo: Steve Jobs' mostly-ex-girlfriend had a baby daughter named
Lisa.  Jobs said the child wasn't his; the courts disagreed.
Roughly a year later, Apple Computer announced the Lisa (forerunner
of the Macintosh).  "Foo", as in "foobar" or "fubar", is a common
noise word among hackers.

Victor Apfel: There was a computer called the Victor 9000 (I think
it was called the Sirius 1 or some such in Britain and Europe.)  As
for "Apfel" - that isn't German for "Apple", is it?

Hal Lanier:  2001's HAL 9000, and Lanier word processors.

Charles Kludge: "Kludge" is explained.  I can't make any plays on
either "Charles" or "Patrick William Gavin".

None of the minor characters seem to have computer-derived names.

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 29 Sep 85 19:52:00 GMT

>I am interested in subscribing to an sf&f magazine. I know nothing
>about any of them, and could use some recommendations. In
>particular, how do they differ in content, style, frequency,
>quality and price?

ANALOG $19.50 per year/$2.00 single issue price/13 issues per year
    (discounts for subscriptions can probably be found and
    their renewal rates aren't bad/)

    Mostly hard science fiction, usually traditional in form.
    Excellent science articles.  The editor is Stan Schmidt, who
    publishes intelligently written, sometimes provoking editorials.
    Contains SF events calendar.


ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE

    Same price/frequency/publisher as ANALOG.

    Has a broader, more literary range of stories than ANALOG.  On
    the latter point, they've received several letters complaining
    that some of the stories "aren't science fiction."  Maybe;
    depends on your definition.  Gardner Dozois has just recently
    taken over as editor from Shawna McCarthy and his flavor/tastes
    won't start becoming evident until the January to March issues.

    Includes sometimes pompous, sometimes fascinating (sometimes
    both) editorials by Asimov.  Book reviews by Norman Spinrad (no
    relation to Evelyn C. Leeper).

FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION

    $17.50 per year/$1.75 single issue/12 issues per year.

    The grand old flagship of the field now (okay, nobody flame me
    that ANALOG is son-of-ASTOUNDING), F&SF is showing its age in
    some ways, not that I wouldn't donate a couple of minor body
    parts like eye teeth to get published there.

    Publishes more fantasy than ASIMOV'S, including contemporary
    soft horror pieces.  Their hard sf is a little erratic, but in
    general it's probably the best magazine for consisently good
    writing style.  Book reviews by Harlan Ellison (no known relaton
    to Mark Leeper), Science columns by Asimov which are
    occasionally interesting, book reviews by A.J.  Budrys that are
    probably the best of all the big mags.

The preceding are probably the big three; following are three more.

AMAZING

    I don't know the current price, somewhere around $2.00/issue.
    Published six times per year by TSR, the same people who made.
    D&D an institution.

    Frankly, I don't like this one; maybe someone on the net will
    volunteer to its defense.

    AMAZING seems to be going for the teen market that's now more
    less neglected by the big three, but in general it stoops too
    low.  It has had stories I've enjoyed by William F. Wu and
    Somtow Suchartikul, but overall I'm not impressed.

    The book reviews are inferior and the editorial responses to
    letters seem smug and self-serving.

FANTASY BOOK

    $12.00 per year/$3.95 per issue/published quarterly.

    I wouldn't get this if I was going to get only *one* magazine,
    but if you like fantasy, it might be worth your while.  A
    relatively new magazine, it's actually been around almost five
    years and seems like it might make it.  Good mix of all kinds of
    fantasy.

    This is also a good market for writers who have got decent
    stories that haven't sold to ASIMOV's or F&SF.

LAST WAVE

    Price unknown, theoretically published quarterly, actually
    published when the editor feels he has enough stories to make an
    issue.

    Well, I don't like this one, but I admire the editor's guts.

    The magazine is billed as "the last best hope of speculative
    fiction."  Very new wave -- which in general I don't care for --
    but for which there isn't much of a market for in the American
    magazine market.

    If you like New Wave SF, then buy this magazine.  If you can't
    find it (it's listed in Fiction Writer's Market, or your
    specialty SF bookstore can get it for you), then message me.
    Keep the SF market open to diversity.

    The editor is Scot Edelman, Somewhere In New York.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: Tue 1 Oct 85 10:54:53-PDT
From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: NOT SF (and spoiler too!)

How's that for a reason to hit the "n" ?  I'd like to preface this
by saying "I guess I'm what you'd call an art snob".  I read
"important" authors, and spend a ridiculous amount of my free time
both writing "serious" fiction, and collecting rejection slips.
Furthermore, to me a television is something used only when one has
a video tape to screen.

Having said that, I'd like to plug the new Hitchcock series.  I was
blown away by how good it was.  Just think about the implications of
the ending.  The woman (who we all think is getting better rapidly)
shows herself to be totally insane, the man's life is basically
over; even if he doesn't turn himself in, he will probably lose his
own mind soon due to guilt.  He has quite randomly murdered
someone's husband/father/brother, the real culprit will never be
caught (because the wife is bonkers).......I could go on for
volumes.  And how is all this shown??  Clearly and instantly by two
words.  The woman merely points at the next man she sees and says
"That's him".  Great!

On another level, the fact that Hitchcock himself presents each
story years after his death is something I'm certain he would have
thought of.  If the quality stays anywhere near this high (please,
please, please) you'll find me glued to the screen for every
episode.

Sorry, I know of no net.horror

Bob

PS As long as I'm abusing your net, twilight zone was ok (compared
   to other tv shows, I guess).  I'll assume Amazing Stories was a
   joke.  How did a non-tv watcher see all that?  I "promised" I'd
   video tape them for a friend.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 85 12:28 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Short and to the point...

Twilight Zone was good, with Harlan's story being the better of the
two.  The second was a bit too old hat but the tone of the old TZ
was caught in both.

The Hitchcock story and the Amazing Story were both predictable.
The only thing I liked about Ghost Train were the engineers raiding
the fridge.

Maybe next time.
Jon

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: semi-hot flash
Date: 30 Sep 85 18:24:22 GMT

> From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@USC-ECLB.ARPA>
> Silly thing cost 4.95.  Thanks, Ace.  But how could I pass it up!

I haven't yet said anything about the recent comments on paperback
prices, but as this one refers to ACE, and I do have information on
this.

It is known (at least by Susan Allison, who is in charge of the
Science Fiction for Berkley and Ace) that there is a relationship
between cost of a book and number of sales.  As I have said before,
Science Fiction fandom means approximately nothing in terms of sales
of SF books.  Ace wants to make as much money as possible.  They are
aware that there is a point where raising the price (and thus
diminishing sales) is a big loose, but don't know where this point
comes.

Their policy is, approximately, to charge as little as possible to
ensure that they make money.  If the book makes money, the author
becomes popular among the sales people and they print more of his
next book, etc.

It seems I have made this more confusing and less informative than I
intended to.  Sorry.  Perhaps I shouldn't go into how it can be to
an author's advantage to have a small print run.  Okay, never mind.

What I do want to say is that Ace likes to keep the price low for
their own advantage.  There are four exceptions.  That is, there are
exactly four authors whose books can be priced at just about
anything within reason without having a noticeable effect on sales.
Is there anyone who can name all four?  I got three, but not the
fourth.
                        SKZB

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 85 01:20:53 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Comments about the "Price of books" ...

A couple of comments on the price of books...

First let us be fair to the publishers, place some of the blame on
the writers where it belongs.  In the past year, Heinlein signed for
a greater then $1,000,000 advance (it may wind up as high as $2M
depending on European rights) and Silverberg signed a two book
package for more than $600,00 (European advance might bring it as
high as $1,000,000).  A significant chunk of both of those figures
has to come from the paperback publishers because, hardcover books
just don't sell all that many copies!  It seems fair to assume that
everyone of all of our favorite authors is angling to get more in
advances from the publishers.  In fact, the SFWA has a recommended
contract to try to help get writers as much money as possible.  Add
to this the fact that almost every job in the chain between you and
writer is unionized, and suddenly, even the publisher that doesn't
want to raise prices is in a bind.  (Since most of the major
publishing companies are owned by other publishers or by holding
conmpanies, you can add in the professional money managers too,
they're probably the worst of the greedy.)

Second comment, don't count on the retailers too much.  What you're
most likely to get from them if you stop buying is requests to the
publishers for more Star Trek books (after all those ALWAYS sell)
and less of that "other stuff" since sales of it seems to be
dropping off.

Third (and last) comment, at Constellation I went to a panel that
George R. R. Martin was on.  At this panel, he asserted that the
major bookstore chains were trying to pressure the publishers to
standardize the size of books in the SF lines in the same way that
the romance lines have been standardized.  They of course wanted
this done so that all SF would be one price and size, so it would be
easier to display and sell.  If you rely on them to pressure the
publishers, you may well simply add fuel to this argument for them.
It is almost needless to point out that if they win on this issue,
SF will become the same kind of mindless pap we have all been saying
it isn't.  We'll be right back to the old "Doc Savage" standardized
story line type of book (hero has visitor with case, optionally
visitor gets captured, hero gets captured investigating visitor's
story -optionally visitor gets captured-, hero's assistants rush off
to help and get captured, hero gets free, hero rescues everyone,
everyone gets captured again, everyone gets away, villian's plan is
foiled, optionally villian dies -- or some such, I don't remember
where I read it, but this is more or less what Lester Dent's
standard story for Doc Savage was).  Also this will preclude all
chances of a new "Snow Queen", "Dahlgren", or "Dune" being written
as they are all much too long to fit the standard price/size.

        Steve Z>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Oct 85 1013-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #392
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 5 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 392

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Calvino & Shiras,
                     Magazines - Analog on Microfiche,
                     Television - New shows,
                     Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) & 
                             SF-LOVERS &
                             Matter Transmission (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 18:44 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Italo Calvino

Someone stated that they had heard a rumor that Italo Calvino had
died.  This is apparently true, as I recently (= within the last
month) read his obit in the Boston Glob, along with a nice
appreciation by someone or other.  I particularly enjoyed his _If on
a winters night a traveler_, which is a sort of meta-novel if you
know what I mean and if you don't go read the book and find out.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 85 10:04:31 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Boring races
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA

     The book "Children of the Atom" by Wilmar H. Shiras is one of
my favorites.  Recently a reference was made by a friend to some
other stories she wrote the first part of the 1970's.  Supposedly
about four stories appeared in "New Worlds of Fantasy" and
"Fantastic" Has anyone read them?  Are they more stories within the
"In Hiding" universe?

     Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Wed 2 Oct 85 09:51:31-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Analog on MicroFiche
Cc: Cate3.EIS@XEROX.ARPA

They had a set and reader at Aussiecon; they looked \really/ good.
In addition to the text, the color covers were included.  They also
happen to be compatible with the reader I have on my desk at the
office (although as I recall, their reader was a lot less expensive
than the ones the Army bought for our office...don't remember their
price, any more, though).

-Rich

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!broehl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Bernie Roehl)
Subject: Amazing Stories, Hitchcock Presents
Date: 30 Sep 85 21:27:31 GMT

Sorry, Chuq, I couldn't disagree more.  (Well, I could, as I'll
point out in a sec).

The first episode of "Amazing Stories" was fun.  The characters may
have lacked depth, but they were certainly well-defined.  The story
flowed along smoothly, and I even admit to feeling a little twinge
of sadness as Old Pa (where did this "Ompah" stuff come from?  Check
TV Guide, if nothing else) boarded the train at the end.

Now, here's where I *could* disagree more:

You're right, the ending was predictable from square one.  So?
*Most* Spielberg stories are like that.  Doesn't bother me much...
this isn't Zone, after all.

You're right, the characters were all cardboard cutouts; see above
paragraph.

You're right, Spielberg probably does have trouble handling a
half-hour format; it's something he's going to have to learn though,
since A.S. will be with us for a while.

All in all, I thought Amazing Stories was *much* better than the new
Zone.  (even the opening credits!)

Best of all, though, was the first episode of Alfred Hitchcock
Presents.  VERY nice work all around.  Real characters, real
suspense, tastefully handled violence, and an ending that I honestly
did not see until the last second.  Good performances, good
direction, good cinematography (the first 30 seconds had me hooked;
the image of the horse being captured and branded intercut with the
woman running/dancing on the beach and then facing shock therapy was
riveting).  A definite winner.  (The intro by Hitchcock himself was
clever; they colorized everything *but* the set he was watching, so
a living color Hitch was watching himself on a black and white set.
Nice touch).

I predict that Amazing Stories back to back with Hitchcock will be a
ratings winner, and that (sadly) the new Twilight Zone will vanish
into the night.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 85 22:11 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: more nepotism

I'm glad to see further discussion of "family affairs" in science
fiction, but some of the responses exemplify a common problem in
sf-lovers -- misinformation, which is then discussed as fact.  Every
issue there are at least half a dozen postings that are plain wrong.
Some as inconsequential as remembering the wrong author for a work,
some as culpably negligent as announcing the death of Jimmy Doohan.

Please -- if you're posting from work and can't remember an author,
check it at home first.  If you're correcting someone else's errors,
be damned sure you have the true story.

And if you're reading an issue, don't believe anything until you've
been able to confirm it for yourself, or at least unless the source
is reliable.  Lisa Wahl's posting about the Star Trek movie is
probably accurate.  Lisa has been active in trek fandom and
Welcommittee for ten years that I know of.  Anything I post is
probably accurate.  I've been writing sf professionally for nine
years, so my sources are pretty good.  Daniel Dern also went to
Clarion, and is also a writer.  I'm not sure who else is on-net.

(This would be a better-organized flame if I had had more sleep; my
daughter -- Joanna Ruth -- is a week old today.  If I have to defend
it, I'll be more articulate.)

Other gripe -- please run postings through a spelling-checker.

Anyway, SF FAMILIES:

Kuttner!  Yes, that's the name I forgot.  Indeed, he was married to
C. L. Moore.  They mostly wrote separately but did write a few
pieces together.

Jack Haldeman is Joe Haldeman's brother, not his son.

Paul Zimmer is Marion Zimmer Bradley's brother, not her son.

Samuel R. "Chip" Delany's wife, Marilyn Hacker, is an award-winning
poet.

Terry Carr, exceptional editor and occasional writer, has co-edited
anthologies with his wife Carol.

I can't remember her husbands (one was James Blish?), but Judith
Merril, an sf writer and anthologist, has had two sf writer
husbands.

More when I think of them.

Now I have a new question: what sf notables have come from your alma
mater?  Where have clumps come from?

I will start this with my own undergrad school, Stony Brook, which
has, at last report, spawned Victoria Schochet, a senior sf editor
(I can't remember where she's working just now.  There's too much
musical chairs), Jim Frenkel, publisher of Bluejay Books (and
married to Joan Vinge), Spider Robinson, me, and Pat Benatar.

Time to feed the kid.

Lubkin.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 85 23:36:31 PDT
From: lah@ucbmiro.Berkeley.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: MZB's "son"

Actually, that's her brother, Paul Edwin.  His books are not set in
any version of the Darkover universe, but in a universe that he
created independently.  That some of the names are the same (ie,
Hastur, etc.)  is because both drew from _The King in Yellow_.  That
red hair is special in both books is because both have red hair
(altho Paul's is redder).  And besides, as every modern witch knows,
only red-haired people make effective magi (;->)...

Read MZB's anthology, _Greyhaven_, for more family info, and also to
see works by her niece.  There are works there also by Diana L.
Paxson, and her son.

How come no one mentioned in the "husband-wife" teams, Poul and
Karen Anderson?

A personal note: it's harder than you think to write with your
spouse.  But soon...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: Wed 2 Oct 85 10:03:58-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Age of SF-Lovers

I was going to check the SFL archives on RUTGERS,but apparently the
old ones are off-line now; at any rate I couldn't find
<SFL>ARCHIVE.V1.  I can always go back and check hardcopy,
though...I was one of the original readers, and for a long time
(until a couple of years ago, when my office moved and I lost my
bookshelves) I printed off each day's issue and put it in a 3-ring
binder for some non-network people at my office to read.  When I
lost my storage space, I donated the whole collection (including all
the odd things like Niven's "Down In Flames" known-space
wrapup/killoff,etc.) to the St. Louis Science Fiction Society
library.  I guess one of these days I ought to start FTPing the more
recent Archive files and printing them out for the StLSFS library,
too.

-Rich

------------------------------

From: madvax!cw@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Weidling)
Subject: Re: Who are you?
Date: 27 Sep 85 16:17:46 GMT

> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> assume it works on life though.  Creatures notice no ill effects
> and people feel continuous through the process.
>
> What we have here is a way of spawning processes...  this template
> will feel like they are the original, except that they should know
> they are copies from a discontinuity in the surroundings.  There
> is ...  I wonder about their first words.  Would they all say the
> same thing after walking out of the machine?  Would it be the same
> thing the original said?  How quickly would they pick up on the
> fact they were not the original?
>
> What if there are a bunch of you walking around?  How do you
> identify the original?...  decide who got to live again?  Popular
> vote?  Elvis Lives?
>
> The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may
> be fun, but it's not a really sensible long term solution to life.
> After all, you still have to die, each and every replication.  Why
> put yourself through that pain again {, and again}?

        A science fiction novel that explores some of these ideas
has the misleading title "Rogue Moon".  It is by Alfred Bester.  A
man is run through a machine that sends all the info on him to a
station on the moon.  Two copies of him now exist, one on earth, one
on the moon, tapes can also be made.  For a while the two copies are
in telepathic content.  The people want to keep them in telepathic
content as long as possible because the moon copy is figuring out a
deadly maze and constantly getting killed, but all his experiences,
including his death, are experienced and remembered by the earthly
copy.

        An interesting story by Clifford Simak, concerns a double
created to perform a deadly mission.  The double doesn't know it's a
double and is supposed to be rubbed out when the job is done.  Simak
has said that this is the most vicious story he ever wrote, and that
it is no wonder it is the only one ever put on television.  It was
done in an "Outer Limits" episode.

                                Regards,
                                Carl Weidling

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 13:30 EDT
From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Energize...

I dug up my old Star Trek transporter message...
Original submission date to SF-LOVERS:  August 1983
Subject:  Energize...

    Mr. Spock, will you please explain the principles of the
Transporter to SF-Lovers <again>.  Like really, how does it work?

   Spock said quietly, "It is a multi-stage process.  First, your
body is entirely mapped - that's what produces the sparkle effect -
then the component molecules are disassembled and converted into
photonic waves -"

    Photonic waves???

   Spock said drily, "Photonic waves: the interference pattern in a
coherent transporter beam - which is a much more precise and
controlled development of the same principle that produces a phaser
beam - phased light, but of a very high frequency.  In fact, the
frequency approaches the theoretical limits of the vibratory ability
of matter in this particular configuration of space-time.  The beam
has the ability to penetrate some kinds of materials.  If the target
is well-shielded, however, or moving too rapidly, focusing becomes
problematic.  Anything less than 99.9999% accuracy is usually -," he
hesitated for only the briefest of instants, "- less than desirable.
At the point at which the interference patterns coalesce, the
transported object rematerializes."

   Eh???

   Spock explained further.  "It's really quite simple.  The locus
of coalescence is controlled by the separate frequencies of the
individual beams that make up the mega-beam of the transporter.
This is usually handled entirely by the transmitting station...  The
information being sent on the beam exists not within the beam itself
but in the harmonics of the various interference patterns that the
separate beams produce.  Although there are three-dimensional
harmonics produced throughout the length of the beam, they are
chaotic orders, out of tune with each other.  At the point at which
all the harmonics come into phase again - that is, the point of
focus - all of the separate frequencies are once more tuned exactly
as they were at the point of transportation, and the photonic waves
collapse back into their material equivalents - forming an exact
replica of the pattern that they held at the moment of disassembly.
I hope that makes it all clear to you."

   Can we take a taxi instead?

   Lt. Kevin Riley adds, "It's safer than the taxi.  If for any
reason there's a problem, the polarity of the monitron beam can be
reversed and instead of transporting to a target, the beam brings
you back."

[So now we know.  This should provide enough flaming fuel for a
while as to pattern reconstruction and memory management.  Quoted
material from >The Galactic Whirlpool< by David Gerrold of Tribbles
fame, page 141.]

Additional Comment:

As I see it, the transporter 'maps' you to make sure you come out
okay (possibly needed for focusing and beam correction).  The beam
hits you with infinite harmonics and your matter (and energy?)
'falls' into its corresponding harmonics in the beam.  The beam is
focused at the other end and you 'fall out' of the beam.  Although
the beam itself requires a lot of power, matter is neither created
nor destroyed.  You are literally picked up and placed elsewhere.
You are the same you that was before being transported, a lot like
taking a taxi and being wisked away and deposited elsewhere, except
a whole lot faster.  Neat, huh?

Cheers,
Gern

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 85 13:47:24 EDT
From: TONG@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Who are you?

Even leaving out such exotic possibilities as cloning, the issue of
"Who am I?" is not easily resolved in situations that really occur.
E.g.: Who am I in the moment after I wake up, but before my mind
clicks into operation?

Who am I when I'm "totally absorbed" in listening to a symphony
performance?

Who am I when "I am asleep"?

Who am I when I'm fantasizing about being someone else?

Who am I before I am born, but after I've been conceived?

Who am I if I am a creature that has no memory?

In all of the situations, I exist, regardless of whether I am
remembering "me".  As far as I can see, all self-definitions
presented in this discussion, have been memory- rather than
existentially oriented. Now one can "explain" some of these
situations as a lapse of memory, which will eventually return...but
really, existence is prior to and more fundamental than memory.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 85 15:33:51 EDT
From: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: re: matter transmission

well, this is certainly been flogged long enough, but there seem to
be some misunderstandings here.

there seems to be a feeling that my point is based on the existence
of a soul.  not true.  whether or not there's a soul, i'll allow it
to be copied along with the rest of me.  my arguments still stand,
even applied to the soul.  in fact, my impression increasingly is
that the other side of the argument is imaging that my soul will
magically fly to the duplicate and make that hunk of matter "me"
rather than a mere copy, however identical.

i think a recent post (which, i believe, was arguing against me)
said it best: "'Having the same indentity' is not an equivalence
relation."  exactly my point.  just because it looks like me, talks
like me, smells like me, acts like me, and thinks it is me doesn't
make it me.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Oct 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #393
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 6 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 393

Today's Topics:

                Books - Aldiss & Cherryh & Clarke &
                        Hogan & Sagan & Silverberg,
                Films - Time After Time,
                Miscellaneous - Families of Authors &
                        Buying Books & Light Sabres &
                        Matter Transmission (3 msgs) &
                        The Good Old Days of SF-L

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 18:39:09-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: re: Brian Aldiss's comments

Brain Aldiss' "Report on Probability A" is a fair-to-good short
story, puffed up into a novel by the addition of minutely observed
random trivia. I certainly don't know what there could be about it
to misunderstand.
                                        Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 16:03 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Cherryh

 I find Cherryh's writing compelling.  She deals with characters and
situations that may not appeal to everyone.  Morgaine of the trilogy
that bears her name is a case in point.  Morgaine is an anti-hero of
sorts.  As opposed to Thomas Covenant who causes grief through
inaction, she causes grief through action.  Her purpose is basically
good, but at the price of innocents.

  Downbelow Station I found to be sensational.  Her sense of
political, social, and economic forces, as well as personal
motivations and emotions was well- developed.

Cherryh may deal with darker situations than some are willing to
read, but she does so very well.  Dostoevski (sp) was not such a
happy and cheerful
 either. either. either. either. either. either. either.

Brett Slocum
(Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)
(...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 20:48:58-CDT
From: Mayank Prakash <AI.Mayank@MCC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Inverse of stories where H.S. gets its come uppance.
To: grady@UCB-VAX.ARPA

>On the otherside of the coin, I recall a story (book?) wherein the
>upstart new Earthlings first come out into space, after having been
>given the technology for space drive, and suddenly the galaxy finds
>itself up a creek, because the humans are conniving, conning, and
>in general swindling the other people of the galaxy, because it
>turns out the humans are just plain smarter than the other races.
>
>Just out of curiosity, anyone got a name for this story?

There is a similar story by Clarke called "The Rescue Party", in
which the humans are supposed to be the smartest race in the Galaxy.

mayank.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  2 Oct 1985 17:39:59-PDT
From: goun%15518.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ask me about my personal_name)
Subject: Re: THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan

>      Hogan's set-up for creating a new race at the medieval stage
> is to describe how the robotics equivalent of genetics and
> evolution could come about unintentionally.  It's not the easiest
> way to create an alien race in a story, but it is the novel's
> finest hour.  It is really intriguing reading and, frankly, the
> kind of idea I read science fiction for and all too rarely
> actually find.

Here, here!  This magnificent set-up is mostly in the book's short
prologue. It's one of the best bits of hard SF I've ever read.

My advice is to read the prologue while standing by the SF shelves
at your favorite bookseller.  Then buy something else.

                                        Roger Goun

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@topaz.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: CONTACT:  A Review (Non-spoiler)
Date: 1 Oct 85 16:49:03 GMT

Carl Sagan, like all mainstream writers trying to write SF, uses SF
themes that have been covered in our genre for ages, and CONTACT is
no exception.  What is different, however, is that his book is not
about alien contact only; specifically, it is his speculation upon
the nature of religious faith, of one's relationship with the
Universe.

It is the story of Dr. Ellile Arroway and her search for her truth,
how she proceeds on her quest, how it hanges her, how it impacts on
the human race.

I think it is a gem, but SF fans must read it as a mainstream
novel--don't expect all the genre bases to be touched.  There is no
allowance for SF traditions, and every scientific speculation is
carefully spelled out for the average reader of the NY Times best
seller list.

I would be surprised if some people are not surprised by events in
the storyline.  (Write me by E mail and let's talk spoiler talk!)

arlan andrews

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 85 13:07 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Silverbob's _Amanda and the Alien_

I would like to give my endorsement to Robert Silverberg's _Amanda
and the Alien_ as one of the funniest stories I have read in a long
time.  It just illustrates a point that I have long believed;
nothing is deadlier than a bored 18 year old girl.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 85 17:17 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Time after Time

(I know this is a bit late, but I was off net for a while and only
recently got back on).

I found the movie "Time after Time" to be a refreshing variation on
the theme of "The Time Machine".  I found it to be much more
interesting than the movie version of "The Time Machine" with Rod
Steiger.

A good plot, well paced, well-developed characters.  A step above
the average SF film.

The ease with which Jack the Ripper fit into modern society was
terrifying in itself.  His comments in the hotel room to Wells were
chilling.

I put this movie into my "Top Ten" list.  Well maybe "Top Fifteen".

Brett Slocum
(Slocum@HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 85 09:55:56 edt
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: Families of SF Authors

My favorite autobiographical comment is in the paragraph Gene Wolfe
wrote about himself in "Again, Dangerous Visions":

"I have a wife and four children.  They seem like more."

------------------------------

Subject: buying books from independents
Date: 03 Oct 85 13:11:57 EDT (Thu)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

I'd like to echo David Levine's suggestion that you patronize the
independent booksellers.  When I travel it is incredibly depressing
to walk into a Waldenbooks or a B. Dalton's in a shopping center,
and see how few books there are, and how many of them are
``Garfield's Tofu Diet'' books, after the wealth of independents
near where I live.

Something Mr. Levine didn't mention: recently publishers have begun
to say they will sell ONLY to the chains.  Avon books (considered a
high-brow publisher) recently announced they would not accept orders
for fewer than <n> copies of a single title, where <n> was a fairly
large number, so that now the only way independent bookstores can
order from Avon is to join cooperatives which pool the orders for
several independents.  This is kind of a curious policy for Avon, as
they publish a lot of books (e.g., their Latin-American series, with
Amado, Garcia-Marquez) which are the kind of books you go to an
independent to find.

This is just one more example of the shopping-mallification of our
society: every shopping mall in the country has a B Dalton's selling
exactly the same inventory of books, right next to the teeny-bopper
store with a cute name selling sleeveless sweatshirts with bright
pastel geometric shapes and the fancy chocolate shop and the record
store selling Aerosmith and Twisted Sister records ...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1985  14:53 EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Light-saber construction...

The point about Sinclair monofilament and high temperatures is a
good one.  We know for a fact that a large field of Tnuctipun
Sunflowers will generate enough energy to burn/melt/whatever it
through.  Shadow square wire may be a better choice since it is
demonstrably more durable (it didn't even break when the Liar
crashed into it, it just pulled loose from its mountings). Of course
it may be that shadow square wire is really just superconducting
monofilament and that it uses the shadow squares as heat sinks.  In
that case, maybe the reason it takes training to use a lightsaber is
that you have to learn how to dispose of all that heat (via the
Force, of course) before your hand fries (now we know what happened
to Darth).

The mirror itself is obviously held in position by reactionless
thrusters (which may run off of the generated heat mentioned above);
the laser beam provides navigational data for the thrusters and
looks impressive to scare off the peons.  The real cutting is done
by the monofilament.  Since the laser doesn't have to be that all
high energy for this you don't have to worry about blinding people
either.

Rob

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.rutgers.edu (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: matter transmission and duplication
Date: 27 Sep 85 17:37:06 GMT

ewiles@netex.UUCP (Ed Wiles) writes:
>> From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A
>> you can walk into a disintegrator beam and have a copy of you
>> made on another planet if you want, but i'm fond of this
>> particular copy of myself.
>
>I know I have qualms about walking into a Trans Mat and having it
>fail, but taking the view that it kills you when the 'copy' is
>indistinguishable from the original is a bit radical.

There seem to be two key issues in this discussion:

1) Point of view.

From the point of view of the rest of the universe, it makes no
difference whether matter transmission kills the original or not.
If the person who comes out the other end is an identical copy then
they're the same person for all practical purposes.

From the point of view of the person being transmitted it matters
very much indeed (at least, it does to me).  This bring us to issue
two:

2) The nature of consciousness and its reaction to the death of the
host organism.

The problem here is we simply don't know.  Dozens of speculative
scenarios come to mind, some more encouraging than others.

a) The original is dead and the new personality takes up where the
   old one left off. (Thanks, but I'd rather walk).

b) The mind, liberated from the original body automatically seeks
   out the duplicate and re-installs itself. (How do we know?)

c) The mind is transmitted with the body and emerges intact at the
   other end. (How do we know?)

d) Etc., etc.

I don't know about anyone else, but until we get some proven,
reliable way of communicating with a mind separated from any host
organism (i.e.: proof of continued consciousness after organic
death), I wouldn't ride in the damn thing.  Given such proof, I'd
want to hear what such a consciousness had to say about the matter
transmission experience before making up my mind.

Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 02:07:54-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: reincarnation

The discussion about copying human beings is all very interesting,
but the subject has been well handled in some very good books. A
sampler:

The World Of Null A (A.E. Van Vogt, 1948)
... wherein the hero keeps dying, and then waking up in a new body...
Fabulous pseudoscience. Classic cliffhanger.

People Minus X (Raymond Z. Gallun, 1957)
... wherein the victims of a disaster are recreated - but from the
memories of the embittered survivors ...  A more modern work, by
which I mean that the moral and social aspects shared the plot with
the exciting ideas (like miniaturized people!).

And while I have the podium: I remember a short story about someone
who learned enough magic to copy things. So, he made enough of
himself to be a jazz band, and lived happily in the woods until one
of him decided to be an army and kill all the capitalists. It was a
fabulous story.  I'd like to find it again: can anyone help ?

                                Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 19:34:34-PDT
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Deja vu:  Editing stored matter transmitter images

I was wondering when someone would bring this up again;we did a
couple of weeks worth of discussion on this a year or two ago.  Carl
Greenburg seems to have hit the main points already in the first
[new] message on this subject.

I don't think we ever hit some of the social/legal issues before,
though.  If you "print out" another copy of yourself, which one of
you gets your job, has to pay taxes,etc.(assuming the copies are
sufficiently identical that no difference can be told between the
original and any of the copies)?

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 19:37:11 edt
From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix
Subject: THe good old days of SF-L

A short history of SF-L, as I recall it:

SFL started as a direct distibution list in the late seventies.  The
original maintainer (Ed somebody?) soon went on to greener pastures,
and dumped the thing in Roger Duffey's lap.

I met Roger in 1980, when he pulled my butt out of a political fire
I had started at the AI lab. I got to know him, and helped him out a
little with the SFL and HumanNets distribution in the early 80's.

By 1980, SFL reached something like 2000 addresses directly. It (and
HNets) were a sufficient load on the MIT-MC mailer that he had hung
a bag onto the side of the COMSAT mailer called PULSAR, which spread
the distribution over 3 machines and 4 hours. His constant complaint
was that SFL was taking so much time away from his thesis that he
would never graduate.

The total archives as of early '81 were something like 8 megabytes,
and were never kept online except when necesary. I once read through
the entire pile (about three linear feet of output).

One of his main worries was keeping SFL quiet. Our persistant
nightmare was DARPA or Proxmire taking a close look at SFL, and
Fleecifiying it to death. A number of times, queries as to the
eligibility of SFL for fanzine Hugos were quickly smothered.

At one point, Roger, Chris Stacy, and I were nervously sitting in
the Sheraton Boston during a Boskone, contemplating the potential
damage a panel entitled "Computers and Fanzines" could do to us.
While we joked about standing up and yelling FIRE if anyone
mentioned SFL, Roger mumbled about emergency plane tickets to
Russia. At one point, I mentioned Roger's name loudly, and a man
came over. He said "Are you Roger Duffey? I'm running the panel the
afternoon, and I was looking for you." It turned out that not only
were all the panelists SFL readers, but that they had all agreed to
keep clear of SFL in the discussion.  (As a footnote, at the Boskone
in 1984, things had improved enough so that we actually had a panel
where Saul Jaffe, Chip Hitchcock, and I were all participating, and
SFL was the main topic).

The Noreascon II SFL party was much like the current parties, with
the following exceptions.

1) There were more pros (notably Pournelle, who was still reading
SFL at the time (and maybe Niven?)).

2) The party was held in a suite, donated for the evening by Robert
Forward. He graced the room for the entire night with his neon plaid
vest.

3) There were less people. There might have been 20 people in and
out of the room all night, as compared to about 40 at the LA party.
Given that Saul estimated 20,000 readers of SFL at last count, this
isn't surprising.

As a final note, much of the digest protocol seen today (headers,
local redistribution, compactifying and elimination of duplicate
messages) is directly connected to Roger's work with SFL and Human
Nets. He did a remarkable amount of pioneering work, especially when
you consider that the digests were a hobby to him.

                           James Turner

ARPA     ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
         decvax  \
         sri-unix \
UUCP     !cca!ringwld!jmturn
         ima      /
         linus   /

MAIL    329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 85 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #394
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 394

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bear vs Brin & Killough & McKinley &
                    Tolkien & Zelazny & Omni Story & 
                    STL Stories,
            Films - Star Trek IV,
            Miscellaneous - Nepotism & Matter Transmission &
                    Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Brin, Sagan, etc.
Date: 2 Oct 85 16:12:00 GMT

Greg Bear *is* one of my favorite writers and based on your
recommendations, I'll add Eon and Infinity Concerto to my already
long to-be-read queue.  (If I had a matter transmitter that made me
a duplicate of me, I'd try to send him out to earn a living while I
stayed home to read and write.  And loaf.)

My comment about Brin should be read as "the best of Brin."  While
the Bear that I've read so far has been exquisite, it has not been
the tour de force that STARTIDE RISING was.  Some of the rest of
Brin's work ranges from average to merely good, though I have high
hopes for THE POSTMAN and, especially THE UPLIFT WAR.

I suspect some of the commentary on I've read on the net concerning
dolphins while partly directed at Brin, has more to do with the
knock-offs and imitations.  Brin did the dolphin's well, with good
characterization (Takkata-Jim was one of my favorites in the whole
book), a reasonable social structure, and in a stroke of inspired
brilliance, the dolphin linguistic system, including Trinary.  Brin
did a high-wire act, without a net, and in my opinion, pulled it
off, which makes SR a tour de force.

Bear writes beautifully, but -- and no criticism implied -- in the
work's I've read he's never gone out on the high-wire.

Greg Benford is also friends with both Brin and Bear.  The San Diego
Bees as Shawna McCarthy called them.  I'm almost willing to move a
hundred miles south just to see if some if it would rub off on me.

Cheers.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: LIBERTY'S WORLD by Lee Killough
Date: 2 Oct 85 15:06:55 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The planet seemed like salvation for the dying colony ship
  Invictus, except...within a day of landing, the colonists found
  the world to be inhabited and themselves caught between two
  opposing cannibalistic armies.

  For Liberty Ibarra, who learned languages fast, the situation
  called for courage, tact, and a blind faith in the alien's envoy,
  the brother of the enigmatic emperor...until she learned that her
  "friend" was also a political schemer with a talent for
  assassination. Then it began to look as through the humans had
  dived over the edge of the pan straight into the fire."

Well, this is another uninspiring and misleading jacket description,
and as is all-too-often the case, if I hadn't already read and
enjoyed some books by Lee Killough, I wouldn't have bought this one.

Lee Killough is very talented in writing stories about alien
cultures.  This is a hard subject to handle successfully. One must
tread a fine line between giving the aliens too many human
characteristics and making them so strange that the reader cannot
relate to them. DEADLY SILENTS (by the author) deals with humans and
aliens, and my index card for the author tells me that I gave that
book my highest rating, 4 stars.  THE MONITOR, THE MINERS, AND THE
SHREE doesn't have any humans, and I gave it 3.5 stars.

The scenario here is as follows. A colony ship develops serious
mechanical problems many years away from its destination. The crew
votes to look for habitable planets in the nearest appropriate star
system. A planet is found and the ship lands, but it can never take
off again.  The crewmembers come from two Earth backgrounds:
essentially advantaged versus disadvantaged. Liberty is from the
latter. I'm happy to say the author doesn't beat the reader over the
head explaining earth culture; one learns about that obliquely.

As the jacket says, the planet is found to be inhabited. The
natives' society reminded me of feudal Japan, but there are a number
of significant cultural differences. We learn about them through
Liberty's adventures. Enough of the plot.

The crew follows a version of the Star Trek "Prime Directive" as
regards giving technology to a backward people, and I appreciated
that. I also liked the way the author treated Liberty's reaction to
major cultural differences.

The first part of the book seemed a bit slow to me, but the pace
picked up appreciably in the second half and maintained my interest
through the end. I can't give this book as high a rating as the
others I've read by the author, but it still ends up with 3 stars
(very good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1985  16:14 EDT
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20B.ARPA>
Subject: Books by Robin McKinley

Robin McKinley has written two books which readers of fantasy would
be well advised to check out.  They are "The Blue Sword" and "The
Hero and the Crown".  Unfortunately, they have been marketed almost
exclusively as children's books.  Both are available in hardcover
from Greenwillow books, "The Blue Sword" is also available in
paperback from Ace(???).

"The Hero and the Crown" is the latest Newberry award novel.  "The
Blue Sword" was a Newberry Honor book several years ago.  Both books
deserve to reach a much wider audience than they have been marketed
to.  I would recommend these books to anyone who enjoys fantasy.
They are VERY good.

I tried writing a review, but I found that I could not do the books
justice.  I would therefore like to ask some kind, eloquent person
(perhaps one of the Leepers?) to read and review these excellent
works.

Dean F. Sutherland

------------------------------

From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
Subject: perhaps a silly (or dead) question...
Date: 30 Sep 85 20:26:57 GMT

  This may be, as I said up there, a silly question, but it has
created a certain amount of debate in these parts.  The question is:

How tall is a Hobbit???

I believe Tolkein described them as looking like 10-year olds to the
men of Gondor, but many times people (especially in FRP games)
describe them as being about 3 feet tall (just bigger than my 2 1/2
year old son!).  Some discussion of this sort of thing would be
welcome. My net address is changing soon, so mail may or may not get
through.
                Mike Sellers

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Yet more Trumps_of_Doom speculation
Date: 30 Sep 85 23:42:20 GMT

speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle) writes:
>>> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is
>>> in fact the gemstone of a ring.  Also Corwin is not dead, but
>>> is masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much.
>>>
>>      Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in
>>      Ganelon/Oberon...
>
>When Julia's body was discovered by Merle she was wearing a blue
>pendant.  Rinaldo wanted Merle to wear his ring, which he didn't
>wear himself.  The ring has some sort of unknown property.  Bill
>doesn't know a lot he just asks a lot of questions and then does
>some deductive reasoning.  In the earlier Amber series he does the
>same for Corwin.

One question which has nagged me for some time: Merlin is not JUST
the son of Corwin of Amber, but is ALSO the son of Dara of Chaos.

Dara, like many of the Chaoids, is a shapeshifter.  Merlin grew up
in Chaos.  Corwin, when faced by an enraged and dangerous Dworkin,
was horrified to see Dworkin transforming from a feeble, old man
into a fierce, huge, monster of terrifying strength.

So, first, is shapeshifting MAGIC or is it an inherent property of
the Chaos Line?  In which case, Merlin should be able to shapeshift
freely.  Secondly, is there an upper limit to the strength of the
eventual form of a Chaoid?  If not, then Merlin can get out, despite
the fact that the prison was blocked by a terrifically heavy rock,
by becoming something big and strong enough to move the rock.  Or he
can just become something small enough to get out through the
cracks...

Oh, all right, I know, Zelazny doesn't want the puzzle solved that
simply.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Fri 4 Oct 85 09:55:53-PDT
From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Flame/spoiler/just hit the "n"

                        **** flame ****

For reasons I do NOT understand, it takes at least a week for me to
receive sf-lovers messages (a fact I find strangely appropriate for
an SF bboard) and even longer to send them (Perhaps a long time
going out and then a long time coming back?).  And before anyone
asks -- no, I don't live on Neptune.  Even given this lag time, I'm
going to try and reply, or rather to add to, the note about the
story in Omni where the Soviets repeatedly kill prisioners.

                        **** spoiler ****

The point to the Omni story was the same as every story -- The
conflict and it's resolution.  The story evolves like this: We start
with an internal conflict.  How is the main character going to react
to the torture?  The corrupt and hypocritical Soviet government is
too inflexible and omnipresent to really be involved.  This fact is
what helps the story go.  When in the past has there been no where
to run?  (I mean at a global level) When have the rebels had no
place to flee?  This may also be a reference to the U.S.A and the
(nasty) U.S.S.R.  taking the rest of the world down with them should
their egos flair.

Anyway, at this point the situation looks hopeless.  The soviet
system controls the entire world, and our intrepid hero has been
imprisoned and is being murdered continually until he becomes a
"good" citizen.

                        **** FLAME ****

At this point in the story, I wish I could force everyone to put the
magazine down until they think of their own ending which brings
everything into focus, ties up all the loose ends, is plausible, is
drawn from principles inherent in the story, and is even happy (or
at least hopeful).  When you give up in total frustration, pick the
magazine back up and see how good the author really is.

                        **** Spoiler ****

After a while our hero becomes immune to murder (so to speak).  And
when asked to apologize for his past deeds, (motivated by being
murdered a bunch of times) he coldly and boldly tells an audience
that the Soviet government is as nasty as it really is.  Now our
nasties are really in a state.  People are starting to listen to our
hero and murdering him has become both expensive and ineffective.
They finally decide to do something they rarely do.  They put him on
a space craft and send him toward a planet that might be habitable.
AHA!  Now the rebels have some place to flee.  Now they have a place
to mass and build an army.  By not dealing with our hero they have
in fact sealed their own doom.  The reader is left with the feeling
that the nasty Soviets will one day be destroyed, that all is right
with the world, and that God is in his Heaven.

I love good fiction,

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 1985 09:11:09-EDT (Friday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: stl travel

Another STL story is "This Moment of the Storm" by Zelazny, from
"Doors of his face, Lamps of His Mouth..."

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: ST IV
Date: 1 Oct 85 20:08:38 GMT

The Star Trek Welcommittee is, of course, an unimpeachable source.
But let us hope Paramount changes it mind before it's too late.

rjs

------------------------------

From: utrc-2at!davidh@topaz.rutgers.edu (David M Haynes)
Subject: Re: Re: Writing offspring of writers
Date: 4 Oct 85 00:20:49 GMT

OK, A challenge at last!

James Blish and Beth Blish
Edgar Rice Burroughs and John Coleman Burroughs
Edgar Rice Burroughs and Hulbert Burroughs
Howard Fast and Jonathon Fast (Jonathon is married to Erica Jong)
William Murray Gradon and Murray Roberts
Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert
Fred Hoyle and Geoffrey Hoyle
Fritz Leiber and Justin Leiber
Richard Matheson and Richard Christian Matheson
John Middleton Murray and Richard Cowper (RC is pen-name for
  Colin Murray)
Rachel Cosgrove Payes and Robert Payes
Frederick Pohl and Federick Pohl IV (non-fiction book)
Milton Rothman and Tony Rothman
Clifford D. Simak and Richard S. Simak
Theodore Sturgeon and Robin Sturgeon
J.R.R. Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien (posthumously)
Manly Wade Wellman and Wade Wellman
Austin Tappan Wright and Tappan King

Whew! Enough????

David Haynes
..!utzoo!ecrhub!david

------------------------------

From: fortune!polard@topaz.rutgers.edu (Henry Polard)
Subject: Re: matter transmission and personal identity
Date: 4 Oct 85 16:29:57 GMT

>..a famous puzzle, known as the ship of Theseus: ...  Similarly,
>what makes you the same person as you were when you were 12 years
>old?  Probably almost all of the atoms in your body have been
>replaced in that time.  Well, you REMEMBER being that 12 year
>old...  So is it your memory of being that 12 year old that makes
>you the same person?

The discussion on teleportation has assumed that we are always the
"same" through time, e.g, I am the "same" person as the 12 year old
I remember myself to be.  But I am different (I had no beard then,
and was innocent of the delights of U*ix), and can see myself
changing from moment to moment as I change oxygen molecules through
breathing and change mentally through new experiences (learning).
For an investigation of personality from the point of view of change
rather than stasis, I suggest reading in Buddhist philosophy (What
the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula is a start), specifically the
part of Buddhist philosphy called Abhidharma.  I think that from the
Buddhist point of view (this is an abstration; there are really many
Buddhist points of view) the ship of Theseus is different with each
change, but because it we think it useful to do so, out of
convenience we label it as the "same" ship.  Similarly, from instant
to instant we are "different", but because we think it useful to do
so, out of convenience, we think we are the "same" person as we
remember we were.  From this point of view there may be no
difference between changes during teleporting and changes from one
instant to the next, no matter how much we are destroyed and
re-created.

Henry Polard
{ihnp4,cbosgd,amd}!fortune!polard

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  4 Oct 1985 07:19:32-PDT
From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1078)
Subject: Cover typos

A recent posting mentioned several typos on a Bluejay edition, and
asked if any similar typos existed.  A few years ago, I bought the
six "Lucky Starr" novels, written by Isaac Asimov (as Paul French).

One of them had, on the front cover, the title:

                        LUCKY STARR
                      AND THE BIG SUN
                          MERCURY

On the spine, the title read:

        LUCKY STARR AND THE BIG SUN OF MERCURY

I found it hard to believe that nobody noticed that a word was
missing from the book's title -- on the front cover.

                                        Andrew Kenah
                                DEC, Spit Brook Road, Nashua NH

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 85 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #395
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 395

Today's Topics:

            Books - Delany & Hogan & Pohl & STL Stories,
            Television - Amazing Stories & The New Twilight Zone &
                    Alfred Hitchcock Presents,
            Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND
Date: 4 Oct 85 21:37:06 GMT

 STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND: first half of a diptych,
Samuel R. Delany, 1984; Bantam Spectra, 1985, 375 pages

     "'We're planning to pluck all the best stars out of the sky and
stuff them into our pockets,' I said, 'so that when we meet you once
again and thrust our hands deep inside to hide our embarrassment,
our fingertips will smart on them, as if they were desert grains,
caught down in the seams, and we'll smile at you on your way to a
glory that, for all our stellar thefts, we shall never be able to
duplicate."  [p.132]

     My FUNK AND WAGNALLS STANDARD DICTIONARY (where else would I
look it up in?) defines a diptych as "1, A double tablet;
especially, two tablets of wood, metal, or ivory, hinged together
and covered on the inside with wax, on which the ancient Greeks and
Romans wrote with a stylus.  2, A cover for a book, resembling this.
3, A double picture or design on a pair of hinged tablets or
panels." (They give an illustration of the last; have you ever seen
a hinged pair of portraits of saints, or of photos of different
people, perhaps at different ages?  That's what it looks like.)

Delany begins the book with, "STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND
is the first novel in an SF diptych.  The second novel in the
diptych is THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES." I guess a
diptych is a trilogy without the middle book.  I'll probably get THE
SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES, the second half of the
diptych, when it comes out.  I'm not entirely sure why; certainly
not to finish the story I started reading here.

     STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is rich in description,
culture, aliens, tradition; maybe everything but story, and possibly
characterization.  We see a lot of strange planets and people (not
all of the latter human), and we get to know quite a bit about some
of the planets.  It's a galactic whirlwind, complete with dizziness.
(One of the characters tells how much more you can learn about a
world by taking a simulated tour, rather than actually visiting.)
Delany never misses an opportunity to go off on an interesting
tangent, exploring lush tributaries of a dry river bed.

     The Prologue concerns itself with a world, and one of its
natives (actually, a nth generation human colonist).  If you have
any doubt that Delany can tell a story, this should dispel it.  (So
should a *lot* of Delany's other writing.) Except in the Prologue,
STARS also concerns the narrator; at least, it never leaves her
side.  She's as tempest tossed as the reader, and very few of her
goals are of import to what goes on in the novel.

     A word or two about pronouns: "'she' is the pronoun for all
sentient individuals of whatever species who have achieved the legal
status of 'woman.' The ancient, dimorphic form 'he,' once used
exclusively for the genderal indication of males (cf. the archaic
term MAN, pl.  MEN), for more than a hundred-twenty years now, has
been reserved for the general sexual object of "she," during the
period of excitation, regardless of the gender of the woman speaking
of the gender of the woman being referred to." [p. 78] Except in the
Prologue.

     In fact, the woman who is the main character is a male human,
who (this is essential to the plot!), unlike most women who enjoy
sex with women of either gender, is primarily turned on by large
human males with acne and short fingernails.  Twice in the novel,
she (the narrator) remarks with surprise how, in some places,
sado-masochism and "what's called beastiality" are (giggle) actually
forbidden, even by law!  I'm sure that all of this, including the
short fingernails, is making some very subtle political statement.
Maybe, "sex can be pleasurable without being pleasant"?

     The pronouns I can accept as a reversal of the expected.  Some
other things - for instance, claiming one world just happened to
have a compass rose with five directions (north, east, south, oest,
and west) - don't seem to make a lot of sense.  By and large,
though, the bizzare bazaar of detail works at enrichening the novel.

     Delany wasn't writing a story; he was conducting an experiment.
Realize that not all experiments "succeed" or "fail"; many simply
yield data.  There's a lot here, much of it good, but not enough of
it working to stir the cauldron of Story; and as a *story*, as
something to read rather than study, I think it fails.  Maybe I'd
enjoy it more the second time around?  Maybe; but if so, the books
requires, but doesn't encourage, you to reread it.  I neither
recommend that you read or don't read this book.  (But if you read
it, let me know what you got out of it!)

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix469@topaz.rutgers.edu (david smith)
Subject: Re: THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan
Date: 4 Oct 85 07:12:40 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>
>                THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan
>
>     Also interesting is the main character.  By profession he is a
>mass- media-psychic and charleton of the Uri Geller variety.  In
>the early parts of the novel you see how Zambendorf is able to
>hoodwink audiences in creative ways.  That also makes for
>intriguing reading but what is even more intriguing is the
>question: if we discovered intelligent robotic aliens in our solar
>system, why would anyone want to use devious means to get a Uri
>Geller to the first contact?  Particularly if those people are
>convinced that the psychic is a fraud.  When you do find out, it
>does make sense, but that puzzle certainly kept me anxious.

If I read you right, I think you missed the point of why Zambendorf
was there.  He was there *not* to make first contact, but to send
back reports on the Taloids (the mechanical inhabitants) which would
have credibility with the masses due to his mass popularity.  His
making first contact was completely unforseen.

David L. Smith
UC Sandy Eggo
{ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix469

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: THE YEARS OF THE CITY by Frederik Pohl
Date: 4 Oct 85 21:40:15 GMT

 THE YEARS OF THE CITY: novel, Frederik Pohl, 1984.  Winner of the
John W. Campbell Memorial Award for best novel of the year.

     Recently, it seems I've talking about the good points of a
book, then vaguely explaining why I don't like it.  This time, I'm
hard put to find particular elements that are outstanding, but I
like the results.

     THE YEARS OF THE CITY looks like a collection of short stories.
It's not.  It's a novel that covers several hundred years, by
considering five crises.  (I'm not sure if they would stand alone as
five individual stories.)

     The city of the title is "the City", New York.  The first
episode, "When New York Hit the Fan", tells of a city very much like
the one we know and love (well, some of us), on a day where the
Mayor is less in charge than Murphy.  The key to this story is that
New York - and by imitation, the rest of the world - decides to
really *solve* its problems.  The next two parts, "The Greening of
Bed-Stuy" and "The Blister", concern the forces of change and their
fight with the powers that be, notably, organized crime.  The final
two sections, "Second-hand Sky" and "Gwenanda and the Supremes",
take place in a New York that's a utopia, compared to our own.  The
problems are trivial, compared to the earlier stories, because New
York has learned to deal with some of its worst weaknesses.

     So, how does it measure up on my usual rulers?  The characters
don't leap out of the book at you, but they're fleshed out nicely,
no more or no less than necessary for the stories to be about THEM.
The prose is Pohl at his best: GATEWAY, say, or THE SPACE MERCHANTS.
But what I really enjoyed about the book is the way Pohl kept it all
together.  Most of the changes the city (and society) goes through
are based on ideas from the twentieth century (well, heck, Pohl had
heard of them).  One year's dream is the next year's project, and
the following year's history.  At the beginning, the new political
and technological ideas are in conflict with each other, as well as
the STATUS QUO; they blend together as time goes on.  And by various
tricks, Pohl manages to keep a minimal continuity of characters
across the centuries.

     Some books are good reads.  THE YEARS OF THE CITY is a GOOD
read.  (And it's now out in paperback, or soon will be.)

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258)
Subject: Re: Slower than light space travel
Date: 1 Oct 85 04:19:13 GMT

Niven had several short stories and novels in Known Space series
with under-FTL speed space travel ( before the Outsider contact -
see "Known Space of Larry Niven" for chronology). I can remember
"Protector" , "World of Ptavvs" (sp?) and "Gift from Earth" ...

Also both Nivens's State novels ( " A World Out Of Time" and
"Integral Trees").

------------------------------

From: puff!pauer@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories (NBC, Sunday, 8PM Pacific)
Date: 4 Oct 85 15:23:31 GMT

> While watching this, all I could think of was "ET meets twilight
> zone" and I find that both lose. Spielberg said that they were
> going to emphasize fantasy because the cost of special effects in
> a SF anthology was exorbitant. I can't disagree with that, but
> they took a story with a lot of possibilities (a variant of "The
> Hell Bound Train" and gutted it.  There was no attempt at
> character development, after five minutes you knew what the ending
> was going to be. They could have played it for laughs or tried to
> do a serious traditional "Twilight Zone" style episode.  Instead
> they took a semi serious track and then tossed in a bunch of cheap
> reaction shots. The end result is a mess with no impact, no real
> direction, and a number of attempted one liners that fail because
> they seem out of place. I think the script was a little weak, but
> I don't think this is the fault of the writer (I didn't catch
> their name, unfortunately). As director, Spielberg could have
> taken this script in either direction and done it successfully. By
> his unwillingness to add a direction to the story and trying to do
> both, he fails.
>
> I know see why copies of the show weren't made available in
> advance. There is a lot riding on Amazing and the return of the
> anthology, and if this is the episode they used to start off the
> seriese, I don't hold out a lot of hope for future episodes.
> Perhaps Spielberg just couldn't handle the 30 minute format, or
> perhaps they haven't really figured out what they want to do with
> it.
>
> I hope it gets better. I don't think it can get much worse.
> Fortunately, a local PBS station has started playing "Outer
> Limits" at 11PM on Sundays, so the evening isn't a complete waste.
> I just wish Spielberg had done a better job of recreating the
> classic anthology format. All he did in the opening episode of
> "Amazing Stories" was mock it.

It seems Spielberg's own rep ruined the effect of this episode.  His
action-minded audience can take this as a mystical time-travel
story. It was effective to me, though, because I interpreted the
story as a view of death through a child's eyes. If you see it
again, watch it with this view.

Also, I believe they were saying Opah, (or something that sounds
that way) which, according to my girlfriend, is German for
grandfather.

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: "Shatterday" (and "Just A Little Piece and Quiet" and "Ghost
Subject: Train")
Date: 4 Oct 85 21:43:05 GMT

 "Shatterday": premier episode of the new TWILIGHT ZONE series,
based on a short story by Harlan Ellison; first aired Friday, the
27th of September, 1985.

     At the cost of two days, Ellison's story completely filled a
half- hour teleplay.  There were only occasional, dramatic seconds
of someone considering what's going on, as compared to minutes of
"Ooh, lookit that!" And I ain't gonna tell you a *damn* thing about
the story.

     This is a reasonably faithful adaptation of the short story.
One day where nothing happens is omitted, and the events of the last
day (which made for a slightly stronger ending) aren't shown.  I
think if Ellison had done the script, he *might* have been able to
wedge those in; it would only take another sixty seconds of air
time.  The problem is that there isn't sixty seconds to spare!  Oh,
that more television had such problems.

     A quick comparison to two following screenplays: "Just a Little
Peace and Quiet", the other half-hour teleplay of THE TWILIGHT ZONE,
might have had sixty seconds it could have given up.  It's an idea
story, a think piece; it didn't have the characterization of
"Shatterday", but it did a good job of treating its subject.
AMAZING STORIES' "Ghost Train" was E.T.  with a different premise,
done as a half-hour teleplay; it had about ten minutes of air time
it could have spared.  The amazing thing is that we'll be seeing
this for two years.

     Of "Ghost Train", my nine year old said, "Is that it?"

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Sat 5 Oct 85 12:25:58-PDT
From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Read this (very slight spoiler)

After all, I told you to ignore my first two messages.  I deserve at
least one.

It is Saturday morning, and to the person who reviewed Hitchcock
Presents before me I have a few things to say.

1.) After reading your review, I went back and watched it
    for a third time.

2.) YES, the dance sequence is too long. Sorry about that,
    I have a weakness for watching pretty women move.

3.) YES, the final long close-up of the husband (which was
    the only thing I found slightly annoying the first time
    around) IS rich with black comedy.

I bow to a keener eye,

Bob Sheleg

PS Sigh...Last night's twilight zone was no better than the first.
    Don't bother watching.  The first presented an interesting
    premise, and then did absolutely nothing with it.  The second
    was a pure (and badly done) rip-off of that gifted writing team
    of Catherine L. Moore and Henry Kuttner (husband and wife I
    might add (No, I'm not mnemonic.  I had to go look that up)).
    The stories name (as long as I'm looking things up) is THE CURE.
    As for the third story, I cannot say.  I didn't bother watching.

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: stored matter transmitter images
Date: 5 Oct 85 04:20:22 GMT

I have often wondered what I would do with a copy of myself---or
perhaps what a copy of myself would do with me.  For instance, when
I got up this afternoon I needed to do my laundry.  Suppose I
created an exact duplicate.  One of me could do the laundry while
the other read net.sf-lovers.

But if he were an exact duplicate, he (I?---we seem to need new
pronouns) would want to read net.sf-lovers and have me do the
laundry.  How could we come to an agreement?  (Perhaps I would do
the washing and he the drying... :-) )

Still I can imagine all sorts of interesting things we could do.
But until someone invents a duplicator, we will have to be contented
with mere speculation.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD
Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 85 1008-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #396
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 396

Today's Topics:

                  Miscellaneous - Critics (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction, Art, Criticism, and Sam Delany
Date: 27 Sep 85 19:08:47 GMT

blueskye@sun.uucp (Tim Ryan) writes:

>...  This is a real, professional, mainstream critic here, folks,
>so listen up to what some people in the "real world" :-) think
>about our beloved SF.

Note of course the qualifier "some." Before anyone post a flame in
response to this he should ask him/herself whether this is an
attitude held by all mainstream critics, a subgroup of mainstream
critics, or this critic only. And I'd suggest you read the flames
that are guaranteed to show up in Harper's in the next month or two.
Don't assume out of hand that all critics agree with Mr. Sante or
that all readers of Harper's do.

>"It is hard, a century or so later, to recall science fiction's
>original promise.  Even today, when technological boosterism is at
>a pitch not seen in years, the mechanical utopias envisioned back
>then seem remote.  Just as the creative leisure once anticipated as
>the legacy of the machine age materialized only as consumerism and
>boredom, so science fiction's great horizons have shrunk.

Note that Mr. Sante is responding primarily to his understanding of
science fiction as a genre which has its origins in the 19th
century.  Note also the political stance implied by his use of a
term like "technological boosterism" and the assumption that the
fruits of our technological activity have been primarily anti-human
(e.g., consumerism and boredom).

He's obviously one of those Marxist (see below) neo-Luddite types
you sometimes run into in humanities departments at your local
university. But you should realize when you read something like this
that other mainstream critics are probably reading it and dismissing
it as nonsense.  A critical exchange usually consists of a series of
thrusts and counterthrusts, and it will be interesting to see how
other critics (if any) respond to the Harper's article.

>Rather than inspiring liberty, science fiction has merely generated
>a new set of conventions.  Instead of drawing anybody onward, these
>conventions have led inward, to minutely embroidered variations on
>earlier works; sideways, to procrastination and sloth (as when
>science fiction disposes of social issues by resolving them in
>impossible conditions); and backward, to nostalgia and escapism (as
>when it pretends that the present never occurred).

He's right in a sense, that science fiction tends to be highly
stylized. But his attitude stems from the 20th century attitude that
art must "progress" by discarding conventions in favor of a more
'direct' confrontation with reality and the nature of art itself. So
what we've sometimes ended up with is art that's so self-referential
that it has little to say about the human condition. This, of
course, is the same criticism he's levelling at SF. Note the
emphasis on 'liberty:' liberty from what and to what purpose?

Science fiction DOES sometimes dispose of social issues and pretend
that the present never occurs. But his sweeping generalizations lead
me to believe that his exposure to SF consists of a few back issues
of Amazing and Analog and a couple of books by Delany he read on
someone else's recommendation. Or maybe he's been reading
net.sf-lovers ...  ;-)

>"Conventions, of course, are attributes of all literary genres, and
>it seems pointless to fault a genre merely for being a genre. What
>makes science fiction different from other genres is the hubris of
>its intention, which is nothing less than to depict the future, and
>the impossible.

This is idiocy. He obviously is only superficially familiar with the
genre and with its history over the last 50 years.

>That it usually delivers pedestrian silliness is therefore thrown
>into much greater relief.  Like modern technology, science fiction
>relies on mystification to disguise the fact that it is continually
>retailing the same product."

Note the slam (again) against modern technology. He simply does NOT
like life as a human since 1800.

>"Nor does science fiction exclude humor, but a major component of
>humor is irrationality, a quality feared by science fiction.

He obviously isn't familiar with Phil Dick's work. Or many other
writers of SF works with a heavy dose of "irrationality" in their
fiction.

>Science fictioneers are addicted to a form of closure, by which
>internal consistency is achieved at the cost of absurdity.  If
>humans shuttle back and forth through time like commuters on the
>subway, the mechanism of their travel must be accounted for in a
>consistent and 'plausible' way.  If aliens are shaped like
>hourglasses and exhale chlorine, their physiology must be explained
>in terrestrial terms.

True to a certain extent. Case in point: the current discussion of
the light sabre vs. the blaster in this very newsgroup (talk about
angels dancing on the head of a pin!). But to say that all SF
writers or readers are like this is to reveal one's own ignorance of
the genre.

>"This desire to capture the enormous impact of scientific discovery
>on the average mind remains a central concern of science fiction.

Note "desire to capture:" the reality is that writers like Delany,
Silverberg, LeGuin, etc. are actually commenting on science's impact
on society and the individual, something this critic thinks is
beneath contempt (since he obviously has nothing but contempt for
science and technology). We're talking politics here, people, not
literature.

>Dianetics, which had considerable impact on science fiction ...
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As far as I can tell, horsefeathers (outside L. Ron's clique, of
course). Just another instance of his limited knowledge of the
field.

>"Meanwhile, in the outside world, science fiction finds work as a
>commercial fetish, substituting for religion.  Consumers are shown
>a field of stars blazoned with the device "Beyond!"  When
>associated with breakfast cereal or pickup trucks, the image of the
>cosmos suggests masculine adventure while promising oblivion.
>Anything can and does get sold this way.

When's the last time you saw an ad of this nature? I have a sneaking
suspicion this yoyo (1) doesn't own a television set and (2) never
reads "popular" magazines. The commercial approach he's talking
about went out around 1958 (which is probably the last time he sat
down in front of a TV to see what the 'masses' are into).

>Perhaps it is not so much that science fiction has compromised
>itself as that time has caught up with it.  Its once vast terrain
>has been thoroughly plundered; what is left is detritus,
>exploitable but degraded.  Science and fiction can both be found
>elsewhere; the future, though, must still be invented."

The same thing has been said about the novel, which still seems to
be alive and well as far as I can see.

>"Better, perhaps, that the author dispense with earthly
>correlatives entirely and drown the reader in extragalactic miasma,
>as Samuel R. Delany does in _Stars in my pocket like grains of
>sand_.  ...His books are dense and thoughtful, if perhaps a shade
>overwritten,...  "Delany has a flair for the alien, and is quite
>adept at convincingly rendering the whole of distant societies.
>But he is sometimes hard on the reader,

     [where have we heard THIS argument before!! ;-)]

>who must spend hours deliberating over the probable sexes of
>characters ...  After a few hundred pages, however, the insistence
>has a hypnotic effect, and the conceits take on flesh.  ...the book
>reveals itself as a doomed-love tale with a very long setup.  ...
>but instead the doom, the pat ending, and even the lengthy
>mis-en-scene seem like camouflage slathered on out of embarrassment.

If SF is so easily dismissible as a genre, why is he spending so
much time trying to dismiss THIS book?

>This is an example of science fiction's accustomed approach to a
>subject of burning concern--to the author or to society at large:
>put it aboard a rocket ship and transport it eons away where it can
>be detonated safely."

A rather pat and rather silly dismissal of Delany's intentions in
SIMPLGOS.

Just remember: one case (or a hundred cases, for that matter) does
not a consensus make. Now I'm just going to sit back and wait for
the sweeping generalizations about 'mainstream critics' to start
rolling in... :-)
                                   Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Wed 2 Oct 85 20:15:46-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Comments on Luc Sante'

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read Luc Sante's review in full.

Nor am I prepared to comment on his lengthy verbiage quoted in this
forum, which seems encoded in a private jargon indecipherable
without the full text.

But facts are facts, and lies are lies.  Here are some of both:

QUOTE

          "Campbell was a tyrant who encouraged tyrannical views.
  His guidance bore fruit in the works of such writers as Robert
  Heinlein and L. Ron Hubbard.  Heinlein's grandiose technocratic
  vision approaches fascism in works like _Starship Troopers_ (1959)
  and _Stranger in a Strange Land_ (1961), the latter once the bible
  of psychedelic zealotry and a major influence on Charles Manson.
  Hubbard, after producing acres of wordage for Campbell, tired of
  writing science fiction, and decided to live it, a decision that
  resulted in his pseudoscience, Dianetics, which had considerable
  impact on science fiction before mutating into the pseudoreligion
  Scientology."

END QUOTE

(1) Campbell was not a tyrant.  In fact, he encouraged many kinds of
    experimentation in Astounding.  This is attested by Heinlein
    (Expanded Universe) Asimov (Opus 100, Before The Golden Age) and
    many others.  There were a couple of problems with his
    editorship: an unreasonable insistence on "human supremacy",
    which Asimov documents well, and an unreasonable urge to remove
    non-gratuitous sex, which seems to be attributable mostly to Kay
    Tarrant.

(2) "Heinlein's grandiose technocratic vision" .. 'technocracy'
    means "the rule of the skilled", and I can't find that in most
    of Heinlein's major works.  The issue of leadership (or, as an
    Englishman should say, kingship) is discussed in many of his
    novels, especially The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I don't
    think they support that conclusion.  Indeed, in many places,
    especially the juvenile stories (Space Family Stone, Have Space
    Suit, will Travel) he indicates his sympathies are the exact
    opposite: EVERYBODY should be as autonomous as possible; even
    incompetents have rights and should be given the chance to learn
    (or die)

    Of course, Mr Sante' may be using "technocratic" to mean
    "worshiping mechanisms and technology" - illiteracy among the
    literati knows no nadir.

(3) "approaches fascism in Starship Troopers".  Well that work
    is not a grandiose technocratic vision in any sense: the
    technology is the minimum necessary to sustain the plot, and the
    invisible rulers are neither technologists nor particularly
    efficient.  Nor is it fascist: name one fascist state where
    military service was voluntary and where even volunteers could
    resign at almost any time (whenever not in actual combat) See
    Spider Robinson's article Rah Rah RAH in Destinies vol 2 no 3
    for more.

    And, incidentally, what does all this have to do with Campbell?
    Unless the limp, yellowing object in my hand is an
    hallucination, "Starship Soldier" was published in The Magazine
    of Fantasy and Science Fiction.

    [As for that common disease of the deracinated intellectual,
     whose main symptom is an habitual sneering at courage, valor,
     patriotism, and, above all, the profession of arms - Rudyard
     Kipling analysed it a century ago.  It is still with us]

(4) There is no technology in Stranger in a Strange Land.  Even
    space travel is kept offstage.

(5) "a major influence on Charles Manson".  Well, bringing out the
    standard book on this subject (Vincent Bugelosi & Curt
    Gentry: Helter Skelter), I find no reference to Heinlein or
    any of his works.  The main influences on Manson seem to have
    been Beatles lyrics and some Scientology notions - though
    even the latter is dubious: Manson's claims to have become
    a "beta clear" are unsubstantiated, and that certainly isn't
    (as he also claimed) the highest stage in Scientology (op
    cit, Penguin Books edition, pp 578..580)

(6) [L Ron Hubbard] "tired of writing science fiction, and decided
    to live it".  Even a cursory look at a Hubbard bibliography will
    refute that.  Hubbard continued writing SF through his Dianetics
    period, and well into Scientology.  Not to mention Battlefield
    Earth.  Moreover, leaving aside some of the wilder claims of the
    OTO, most dispassionate observers conclude that Hubbard himself
    didn't try to "live" his cults.  See, for instance, Stephen
    Annett (ed) The Many Ways of Being, Abacus, 1976.

(7) Finally, Scientology is

        "a religious philosophy containing pastoral counselling
         procedures intended to assist an individual to attain
         Spiritual Freedom"

    in fact, a pseudo-religion.

If a reviewer is so wrong about facts that can be checked, not in a
reference library, but in a poorly-stocked home library, of what
value are his opinions?

Robert Firth

PS: On re-reading the above, and scanning the archives, I feel I
    was wrong about the "non-gratuitous sex" stuff.  For example,
    Poul Anderson's serials The Long Way Home and The Man Who
    Counts, both published in Astounding in the '50s, contain plot
    elements that involve "sex" in one way or another, and the
    latter especially makes a very tough point.

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Excerpts from Harper's article on Science Fiction
Date: 1 Oct 85 13:39:21 GMT

dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes:
>...[ED. NOTE: Acclaim is given to Wells, Stapleton, Cordwainer
>Smith, Bester, Dick, and especially Ballard.]

Thanks, Davis, for balancing the other poster's excerpts from this
critique of the genre. After posting my flame against Sante, I
decided it was only fair to go out and read the original article in
its entirety. Sante DOES acknowledge that certain books written by
the above authors are 'genuine literature' so he hardly dismisses
the genre completely. Although I still believe his knee-jerk
reaction against science and technology is wrongheaded, I retract my
comments about his limited knowledge of the SF field. Sante knows
his stuff.
                          Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  9 Oct 85 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #397
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 85 0952-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #397
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 397

Today's Topics:

            Administrivia - Welcome Back Bitnet People,
            Books - Aldiss & Brust & Forward & Zelazny (3 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (3 msgs) &
                            Typos & Nepotism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 85 09:31:25 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Welcome back Bitnet people

        Apparently for the past month, the people who reside on the
bitnet have been unable to receive the digest.  There is a long
story behind this so I'll make it brief.  This story is also a *lot*
of guesswork as to what happened.
        At the beginning of September, Rutgers changed it host name
to conform to the new domain name standards.  WISCVM, the site we
were using to get to bitnet, did not recognize the new name and
began rejecting all mail from Rutgers.  We did not become
aware of this because we were not receiving any rejections or errors
back from WISCVM.  We were however, receiving mail *from* the people
on Bitnet who were asking what happened to their favorite(?) digest.
        We attempted to contact the people at WISCVM but of course
the mail failed and they never did anything to correct the problem
which they, of course, were not aware of because nobody was
complaining.  (Sounds like a Catch-22 situation if I ever heard
one).
        In any case, the problem has now been resolved.
Unfortunately, these people have missed close to 50 digests.  There
is no way I can tie up the mailer at RUTGERS or WISCVM in order to
remail the messages.  I also understand that there is no way to use
FTP from the bitnet.  Anyone who has any suggestions or is willing
to get the digest to these people, please let me know.  Send
suggestions to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Oct 85 11:31:54 pdt
From: Dennis Cottel <dennis%cod@nosc.ARPA>
Subject: HOTHOUSE by Brian Aldiss

HOTHOUSE by Brian Aldiss, Baen Books, 1984

According to the introduction, HOTHOUSE first appeared as a serial
in 1961 in F&SF, then was published in 1962 in an abridged American
edition as THE LONG AFTERNOON OF EARTH.

The setting is Earth in the far future.  Tidal forces have stopped
the planet's spin so that the same face is always towards the sun,
and the sun is getting hotter as it evolves toward a red giant.  The
increased ultraviolet and thermal radiation have combined to create
an environment in which the plant kingdom has run amuck, both
genetically and physically.  The few remaining members of the animal
kingdom (including humans) are distant mutations of present-day
versions, and are gradually being forced from their last ecological
niches.

The story follows members of a small group of "human" tree dwellers
through a series of misadventures, and in the process, allows Aldiss
to describe various strange adaptations of plants as they fill all
the ecological positions formerly held by animals, birds, insects,
and so on.  Although the characters develop as the story progresses,
for the most part they are simply carried along by events.  The plot
never really caught my interest.

One problem with this story is that it presents itself as science
fiction with attempts at scientific explanations for most of what is
described.  But I was never able to believe in the flying plants and
other amazing plant adaptations.  The environment is so hostile to
the humans, that I felt it unlikely they could have survived beyond
a few generations.  There is also a particularly hard-to-swallow
item having to do with the Moon.

If imaginative descriptions of an essentially alien plant-infested
world attract you, you may find HOTHOUSE interesting, or even
fascinating.  But I don't recommend it as a "good read." (Maybe it's
Art! ;-)

What have *you* read lately?
Dennis Cottel  Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 225-2406     dennis@nosc.ARPA      sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258)
Subject: Re: JHEREG by Stephen Brust
Date: 30 Sep 85 21:58:18 GMT

In his review of JHEREG by Stephen Brust Mark R. Leeper writes
> In a world where magic works, a man who is basically a cheap
> detective of the Sam Spade sort is given a single task not too
> different from one he might be given in our world.

Oh, come on! The guy was running a protection racket! He was a
gangster and a part-time assassin. That was one of the interesting
things about JHEREG -- a gangster/private eye in the world where
magic works!

>      Brust has created a world where different rules work.
> Characters who are killed may or may not come back, characters
> teleport at will--there are a number of differences.  But the
> world is self-consistent and with some substitutions not really
> very different from ours.

Well, thanks for figuring *that* out! The world of JHEREG (and
YENDI) is one of the most consistent systems ever to appear in
fantasy/sf. It is a *very* well done system with *very* few loose
ends.

>      Aside from the multiplicity of unfamiliar names--probably not
> a drawback for most other readers--the story is fairly
> well-written.  I did, however, all too often come up confused as
> to who was who in the book and because of that, did not enjoy the
> book as much as I might have.  Rate the book a +1 on the -4 to +4
> scale.

Oh, poor you! I bet you put away Zelazny's "Lord of Light" after the
first few pages. And how often do you read historical books?
Especially the ones on times and lands quite remote. I am sure
you've never read any of the Russian great writers -- because you
couldn't remember the names and places...  JHEREG does not sport an
overwhelming cast of characters. Their names are easily remembered
and pronunciation is given. Next time why don't you set up a list of
names of characters you encounter in a book and who they are and
just give them plain English names ( for your own benefit) like
"Joe", "Pete", "One eyed pirate", " A paraplegic beggar", etc. and
think of everything in those terms. you could do the same with
places and cities : Boston, New York, Phili instead of the
goblety-gook names the silly authors insist on. And as long as we
are at it why not replace magic with something else. Like cabs
instead of teleports... CPR instead of "raise dead" spell...

If the story doesn't make any sense after all these transformations
-- I guess it wasn't good enough to start with...

Mark, my advise to you : quit sf/fantasy reading and concentrate on
NY Times Top 10 bestseller list. They will not have all the strange
names and masses of characters ( else how would they have *ever*
made it into the top 10?).

As far as my opinion on Steven Brust's writing :

I think he is one of the finest new authors in fantasy/sf. JHEREG
(and its sequel YENDI) are enjoyable reading. His "To Reign in Hell"
was an excellent analysis of an old story and is a very pleasant
book.

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258)
Subject: Forward's The Flight Of The Dragonfly
Date: 1 Oct 85 04:40:42 GMT

Dave Opstad (Opstad.PA@Xerox.ARPA) writes about Forward's
_The_Flight_Of_The_Dragonfly_

> ... This ... book gets my vote for best SF novel of the last
> decade, by the way--it's been a long time since I've so
> voraciously read a novel all the way through with such an inane
> grin on my face...)

In the "science" part of sf it was on of the best I've ever read.
In the "fiction" part ( or shall we say "literature"?) it stunk.

Sorry, I had to say it. Please send the flames to net.flames -- I
don't read it!

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258)
Subject: Zelazny's Trumps of Doom
Date: 1 Oct 85 04:26:53 GMT

> <WARNING: SPOILER SPECULATIONS>
>
> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is
> in fact the gemstone of a ring.  Also Corwin is not dead, but
> is masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much.
>
> -steve

Possible. It could be located in the new set of Shadows that Corwin
created.  The gemstone is possible also; Zelazny used that in "Jack
Of Shadows", though. And he usually doesn't repeat himself . Or am I
missing something?

------------------------------

From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Trumps of Doom speculation (the
Date: 3 Oct 85 17:26:00 GMT

There is actually another Zelazny novel in which he uses the "main
character imprisoned in a gem" trick. I refer to Jack Of Shadows in
which Shadowjack is imprisioned in a gem that is a pendant around
his main rival. I wonder if Merlyn will use the same trick to
escape?

                chris
                Chris Kostanick
                decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris
                ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1985 15:15:35-EDT (Sunday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Amber

Here's a bit more fuel for the fire:

Given that Luke/Rinaldo is Brand's son, when did he ever take the
pattern (remember, whatever powers he has over shadow are dependent
upon taking the pattern before they'll work)?  He clearly couldn't
have taken it during Nine Princes, Guns, or Unicorn since Brand was
imprisoned and couldn't have brought him there in the first place.

Now, after Brand was brought back, when did he have the chance to
bring Rinaldo to Amber to take the pattern?  And even if he did, why
wasn't he helping his father afterward?  Besides, the implication is
that Rinaldo wasn't even around when all this was taking place,
since he makes some comment to Merlin about being off in Shadow when
Brand died.

He could have come by the Black Road, but that would mean that he
had some sort of deal with the Courts of Chaos, in which case why
didn't Merlin know anything about him?  Merlin did grow up there
after all...

And finally, if Rinaldo had taken the Pattern before "Nine Princes"
why didn't he 1) Rescue his father, or at least try? or 2) help him
out later?

About Corwin's insanity: remember that Merlin said that the Lorgus
drives one temporarily insane.  Could Corwin have taken the
Lorgus...?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1985 15:12:18-EDT (Sunday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: matter transmission/cloning etc

For those who have never read Van Vogt's Null-A books, this may be a
bit of a spoiler, but for those who have,

Gilbert Gosseyn is killed early in the first book, but wakes up
apparently in perfect health, on Venus.  He remembers everything
that happened to him up to the moment of his "death" and eventually
concludes that he is the same person.  Actually, all his memories
were instantly transported into an exact copy of his body at the
moment of his death.  Effectively, however he is the same...

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  6 Oct 85 17:32:30 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: re: matter transmission
To: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU

>From: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU
>my impression increasingly is that the other side of the argument
>is imaging that my soul will magically fly to the duplicate and
>make that hunk of matter "me" rather than a mere copy, however
>identical.

  My opinion is that the 'soul' is simply an emergent phenomenon,
arising from the structure of the matter inside a person.  Duplicate
the matter and you duplicate the 'soul'.
  I do not think that the existing soul will go into the copy, but
that a copy of it will, and this copy will be just as real as the
original, i.e.  both copies will think they are you, and both will
be right.
  The real question is what makes you you.  It can't be being the
precise same matter as you are right now, as that does get replaced
with time.  It can't be being in the same place you are now, since
you move around.  It can't be there being only one of you, because
you object to matter transmission as well as duplication.  All I can
figure is that it is non- continuity of position, i.e. if you move
from one place to another you must exist as you in all intermediate
points.  Is this your position?  If not, please tell me what is.  If
it is, please tell me how you justify it.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: codas!mikel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mikel Manitius)
Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc.
Date: 5 Oct 85 20:54:56 GMT

> The matter transmission might destroy a soul if we had one.  What
> are the characteristics of the soul, if one exists?
>       Consider what matter transmission could do for surgery:
> load someone into memory and just edit them, removing cancers and
> such.  Maybe even take out the brain of a youthful backup and
> substitute the one of the aging current one, and PRESTO! instant
> youth.  Is someone legally dead when they only exist on magnetic
> tape or whatever we use for storing them?  Suppose there's a
> glitch in the tape when you're restored, heavens forbid....
>       Think of what could be possible for transporation:
> assuming the ability to digitise someone and recreate them later,
> it might be able to post a copy of yourself to net.net-people and
> be created for a conversation.  Or famines and droughts: take the
> digitisation of several acre-feet of water and just supply the
> energy from a nuclear power plant and create water or food!
> There's a lot more than souls in danger here- transporation,
> factories, and much more would be made completely obscelescent...
>                                               Carl Greenberg

What everyone seems to be forgeting here, is that, as you may be
able to digitise the atomical structure of a living organism, how
are you going to digitise the information it contains, namely the
"energy" within it. What I'm getting at, is that you may very well
be able to re-create the physical body of the organism, but how are
you going to restore the "life" within it?

Imagine that you can digitise a computer, in order to restore it
exactly to the point it was at which you digitised it, you must also
store the information in it's memory, this is not matter, it is
energy. The problem comes when you try to restore all of the
processes running in the computer that you had when you started, and
make it all continue.

Now go back and solve the problem of digitising atomic information,
or earth's orbit around saturn for that matter!

Mikel Manitius                    AT&T
(305) 8692462 RNX: 755            Information Systems
...{akguc|ihnp4}!codas!mikel      SDSS Regional Support
...attmail!mmanitius              Altamonte Springs, FL

------------------------------

From: ames!barry@topaz.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo...
Date: 4 Oct 85 22:08:24 GMT

> From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
>     Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless?  This is
> definitely the worst I have ever seen.

        Not on the cover, but at least as significant: the SF Book
Club edition of THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE has a typo changing the
sentence, "the children should have been spaced" (ie, out the
airlock), to "the children should have been spared", thus reversing
the meaning 180 degrees. When I got my copy signed, Niven also
corrected the typo. What is worse for an author, than to have a typo
actually alter the meaning of his story?

                     Kenn Barry
                     NASA-Ames Research Center
                     Moffett Field, CA
ELECTRIC AVENUE:  {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  6 Oct 85 17:20:02 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Joan Vinge
To: Lubkin David@LLL-MFE.ARPA

>From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>Jim Frenkel, publisher of Bluejay Books (and married to Joan Vinge)

  I thought Joan Vinge was married to Vernor Vinge.  Were they
divorced?
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 85 1013-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #398
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 398

Today's Topics:

                      Books - LeGuin & Niven,
                      Films - The Time Machine,
                      Radio - Doc Savage,
                      Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) &
                              The New Twilight Zone,
                      Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: ORSINIAN TALES, by Ursula LeGuin
Date: 6 Oct 85 18:45:52 GMT

                 ORSINIAN TALES by Ursula K. LeGuin

                    book review by Davis Tucker

    Despite its cover, and despite the publisher's blurb, this is
*not* a science-fiction *or* fantasy collection. The tales are of
Hungary, and Hungarians, and it seems that the only reason why
"Orsinia" is mentioned at all is to fool the unsuspecting
science-fiction fan who refuses to read anything else (What can I
say? Fooled me into buying it, too). But be that as it may, this is
a truly excellent collection, crafted with a fine eye to the nuances
and subtleties that define "well-written", as opposed to what often
passes for it these days.

    These short stories are set in various times in the history of
Hungary, from the Dark Ages to modern times, and are exquisitely
crafted gems that bring to mind great Russian literature by such
short-story geniuses as Gorky, Chekhov, the early Tolstoy, and
especially Turgenev. The Slavic touch is omnipresent; the characters
breathe their lives and break their hearts in a stew of environment,
a rich sea of detail and description. These stories, singly and
collectively, rank very high on my list of great short literature.

    What LeGuin accomplishes is nothing new, nothing astounding in
and of itself, no breakthrough in technique, no earth-shattering
ideas. She has confined herself to the small dilemmas and monstrous
defeats and sacrifices that all of us face; she has limited herself
to describing humdrum situations, everyday affairs of the heart. The
reader is not immediately catapulted into the glittering world of
high fashion, drugs, and international intrigue, nor thrust into a
crippled starship or a supernatural child's mind. The world of
"Orsinian Tales" is small, circumscribed, each story shares the same
general location of towns and countryside. It is a world, though it
may be Hungary, that we have all known in some form. Maybe not so
poor, maybe not so rich, but the characters that people her book are
ourselves and those around us.

    Though it is unfortunately misused, "sublime" is the only word
that can be used to describe the beautiful quality of LeGuin's
prose. She writes with an economy that speaks pages more than any
elaboration.  Afternoon light shines through a window just so; a
dress is worn exactly; a lamp is broken, an accident that brings two
pained people together across years of loneliness. There are very
few wasted words in "Orsinian Tales". What needs to be said is said,
and what needs to be left unspoken, what cannot be explained, is
left between the lines. She evokes more with a simple ten-word
sentence than can be imagined - reverberations of meanings from
pages before, sometimes from a previous story, immediately spring to
mind and flesh out the picture she paints. There are layers and
layers of meaning in these stories; I don't pretend to understand
them all, but just knowing they are there provokes the reader into
further study and a greater appreciation.

    What is so wonderful about this collection is its depth and
breadth of understanding of basic human situations and
relationships. There are no great kings, there are no wild geniuses,
there are no insane villains.  There are quarrymen, and students,
farmers and housewives. Nothing awesome occurs, but it is precisely
in this presentation of the mundane that LeGuin brings the reader to
a deeper understanding of what happens in our own lives, as well as
those of others. She has made the difficult simple, and the
heart rending easier to take. At no point are simplistic solutions
and plot resolutions offered. Men grow old and die, broken by a hard
world, they fall in love and lose their love, women sparkle and
laugh in their girlhood and take on the cares of the world later,
bearing the burden of their children's misfortunes and mistakes.

    "Orsinian Tales" is not a depressing or dull work. The
inevitabilities of life are not put forth as quietly desperate and
terrible truths. They are merely facts, facts which various people
deal with in various ways.  To say that these tales are either
hopeful or full of hopelessness is to miss the point - to LeGuin,
living is walking the fine line between both, sometimes in despair,
sometimes in love. There is no overwhelming tone of depression, as
with many of Dostoevsky's works. There is no underlying symbolism
which twists the facts of a situation into a totally different
setting, as is the case with Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It is the
simplicity of her presentation that will make some of these stories
seem shallow; but a second reading will reveal a surprising depth.
It's not that the reader has to work to understand any given tale;
they are very basic stories, ones we have all heard before. The
reader does have to put forth effort to see that it is exactly such
simplicity that reveals a greater meaning.

    It is difficult to stress how exceptional this collection is,
and how moving are its stories. After reading it, you will feel as
if your eyes have been opened to what has always been obvious, like
coming out of a dark building into the sun. There isn't anything
"new" here; there doesn't need to be. What is presented is our own
lives in the lives of others, illuminating the majesty of the
regular world. The world is reflected as it is, wonderful but not
strange, beautiful but not glamorous, familiar but not dull.

------------------------------

Subject: The Ringworld Polar Projection Maps
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1985 10:04 EDT

There has been considerable debate in SF-LOVERS about the fate of
the Protectors from the Home colony. Although I'm not sure that was
ever resolved, (I certainly hope not), a spin off of that debate
seems to concern the polar projection maps in the Great Ocean (one
of) of the Ringworld. Larry Niven does seem to have a penchant
(intentional or not) to write stories that inspire debate. The maps
on the Ringworld may be his attempt to get back at us for being so
interested (picayune?) concerning the detail of his works.  These
maps certainly provide a challenge to any who attempt to unearth a
rationale for their existence, or for that matter, the existence of
the Ringworld itself.

Almost certainly the Ringworld was built by Pak and NOT the human
variant of the Home colony, as some had suggested during the earlier
aforementioned discussion. The time line isn't right for it to be
any other way. I suspect, and I'd have to reread the timeline in
Known Space, that about the time Phssthpok was entering the Sol
system, the Puppeteers were greedily seeding Ringworld with the
superconductor pathogen, (give or take a thousand years).  Chmee, I
believe, was right when he deduced the Ringworld was hundreds of
thousands of years old when he, Louis, et. al. got there. I do
believe Chmee was right but not necessarily for the same reason.
Chmee thought that there had been too much evolution and mutation of
the original 'human' stock for the Ringworld to have been anything
but ancient.

An important fact to remember here is that the Ringworld is mobile.
The Ringworld's sun could be flared by manipuating the magnetic
effects of portions of the Ringworld 'scrith'. The sun would move
and the Ringworld's attitude jets would chug furiously to keep up.
Someone will probably be delighted to calculate what it's maximum
speed and acceleration might be, but I suggest that both would be
sufficient to be able to escape the core explosion.

I advance the theory that the Ringworld is some giantic Noah's Ark.
It was built near the core world of Pak by breederless Protectors
who had staved off death by starvation by generalizing their
protective instincts to generic Pak and, yes, even non-Pak species.
The building of the Ringworld, sans maps, would be easy to figure.
The Pak protectors fought continual planet wide wars. If They were
going to build something to escape the destruction of their home
world, it would be reasonable to build something big enough to allow
room for each Protector, and it's breeders. Their technology would
probably make quantum leaps forward because, with room, they
wouldn't fight as much.  The maps however, tend to discredit a
Ringworld 'by Pak and for Pak' theory, as the maps would serve no
function for a Pak, and they do not build a functionless artifacts.

I believe that the Ringworld has been traveling hither and yon
throughout the galaxy for quite some time. During that time the Pak
have collected species and built replicas of the species home
planets. The divergent life of the Ringworld is not so much a
function of evolution and mutation, as Chmee deduced, but that in
concert with specie variation from planet to planet.  It may well be
that the species were really much different but that the Ringworld
environment favors a human form, (since the Pak built it), and the
various inhabitants have been evolving toward the human form since
placed on the Ringworld.

I'm sure there are arguements that conflict with this scenario. It
would, admittedly, be quite an altruistic leap forward for a Pak to
care about saving any specie other than Pak breeders. However, the
Pak had obviously intended to keep Kzinti, and Grogs on the
Ringworld or they wouldn't have created the Kzin and Gummidgy maps.
The Ringworld must have been created to flee the core explosion,
because there would be little reason to make such a structure
mobile.

Ah well, signing off for now.
                                                 Jim White

------------------------------

Date: Sun 6 Oct 85 19:39:37-PDT
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: comment on "The Time Machine"

Brett Slocum commented on "The Time Machine" starring Rod Steiger.

Actually, it starred Rod Taylor, a completely different type of
leading man. Steiger is more of a character actor, quite talented of
course.

I wouldn't write in on such a small item except that it was the top
of my film favorites back in the 60's. Sadly, George Pal, who
directed it died a few years ago.

While Meyer's "Time after Time" was good, there's *no* way I would
put it in a class with "The Time Machine." Well, they are really two
different types of movie aren't they? The first is humorous and the
second tries to be more realistic. Difficult to compare.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Subject: Doc Savage on NPR
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 85 14:41:47 EDT
From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>

This morning I heard an blurb for a "Doc Savage" radio adventure
show, to be broadcast at 4pm today (Monday) on National Public
Radio.  Probably a weekly occurance.  Doc did the advertisement;
sounds like a good voice.

Old time radio fans, take note!!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon 7 Oct 85 10:49:18-EDT
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Old Pa and other Amazing Stories

Well, Amazing Stories was fun this week: we're all the way up to the
40s in terms of the SF they're using.  Oh boy!  "Star Attraction"
was predictable, ruined by the title and the commercials, and
derogatory to nurdly women.

Personally, I thought the kid was saying "Opa," instead of "Old Pa."
Opa is German "kid-talk" for "grandfather," and it warmed my heart
to at least 198K to hear used what I call my grandfather.  "Old Pa?"
Pfeh!
                        wz

------------------------------

From: cbdkc1!gwe@topaz.rutgers.edu ( George Erhart  )
Subject: Amazing Stories (10/6 episode)
Date: 7 Oct 85 15:37:35 GMT

I have read a few initial reactions to this episode, and I must
agree that it was close to the level of an MTV music video. BUT, I
thought it was great light humor. I really thought the scene with
the lockers was great. (By the way, good humor almost always offends
someone.)

George Erhart at AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio
614-860-4021 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbdkc1!gwe

------------------------------

Date: Mon 7 Oct 85 09:02:32-PDT
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #393

   I caught the new Twilight Zone program this Friday evening.  I
thought the three stories were excellent, and the best SF & F TV
show since "The Lathe of Heaven."

   For those of you who missed this episode a very brief description
of each story follows:

(1) What would you do if the language you speak slowly changed
    for everyone but you? Did you feed you new encyclopedia today,
    and make sure you take your friend out for dinosaur...

(2) A nice variation on the theme of dreaming and reality. Did I
    dream I was a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I am a
    human?

(3) The third was the weakest and longest of the three. It attempts
    to be somewhat "cosmic" and falls short here. Why would an
    alien hitch-hiking on the space shuttle want to hang around
    good old Earth anyhow? And, if you could leave and explore
    the Universe wound up in this creatures consciousness, would
    you go along for the trip or remain a research scientist at
    NASA. I personally prefer a good pint of ale.

Bill
PS>The most recent episode of Alfred Hitchcock presents was TOO
predictable, and really rather dumb.

------------------------------

From: codas!mikel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mikel Manitius)
Subject: Re: Who are you?
Date: 5 Oct 85 21:09:32 GMT

>> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>> assume it works on life though.  Creatures notice no ill effects
>> and people feel continuous through the process.
>>
>> What we have here is a way of spawning processes...  this
>> template will feel like they are the original, except that they
>> should know they are copies from a discontinuity in the
>> surroundings.  There is ...  I wonder about their first words.
>> Would they all say the same thing after walking out of the
>> machine?  Would it be the same thing the original said?  How
>> quickly would they pick up on the fact they were not the
>> original?
>>
>> What if there are a bunch of you walking around?  How do you
>> identify the original?...  decide who got to live again?  Popular
>> vote?  Elvis Lives?
>>
>> The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may
>> be fun, but

Actually, if the machine is perfect (which in itself is another
problem...), then they are all the originals, if they are truly
atomically identical, they will probably all be thinking and doing
the same things.

Although, I have an idea that what you do is much influenced by your
enviornment, and time itself. Therefore, since more than one copy of
the human, cannot occupy the same space at the same time, I would
venture to say that they could not think the same thing at the same
time (with the possible exceptions), however, their thought patterns
wwould be identical, and if one did something for a reason, you
could be sure that the other would do the same. This would probably
change as each copy had it's own experiences and developed a
different character.

I also think that each copy would perceive itself as the original,
imagine yourself, how do you know that you are not a copy of
yourself? Weather or not they could understand that they are copies,
would depend on the intelligence of the original to begin with.

Mikel Manitius                  AT&T
(305) 869-2462 RNX: 755         Information Systems
...{akguc|ihnp4}!codas!mikel    SDSS Regional Support
...attmail!mmanitius            Altamonte Springs, FL

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Oct 85 1041-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #399
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 399

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & DeLint & McKinley & Tolkien &
                   Some Story Suggestions (2 msgs) &
                   End of the World Stories,
           Television - SF on TV,
           Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (2 msgs) &
                   Writers as Instructors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov, in F&SF
Date: 8 Oct 85 02:16:12 GMT

EXCERPT FROM: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov
THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, 36th Anniversary Issue
- OCT '85

My beautiful, blond-haired, blue-eyed daughter, Robyn, who is now on
the job as a psychiatric social worker, got together with her lovely
co-worker the other day and decided to compose a fiery memo
denouncing some practice or another they considered heinous.

They got paper and pens (the easy part) and then started brooding
over the wording. Minutes passed, and nothing came to them except a
dozen false starts.  Finally, Robyn, throwing down her pen in
exasperation, said, "Do you believe I'm my father's daughter?"

When she told me the story that night, I laughed, for when she was a
little girl, there was a widespread disbelief over that very matter.
Since Robyn's mother was, in this matter, completely above suspicion
(either by me or any- one else), the general theory was that Robyn
had been accidentally switched in the hospital with my true
offspring. (Actually, I know that is not true for Robyn has, with
time, developed unmistakable Asimovian features and, if it is
possible for a gorgeous woman to look like me, she does).

Nevertheless, friends of mine staring at a little girl with blonde
hair who looked precisely like the John Tenniel illustrations of
Alice in "Alice in Wonderland" (she was asked to play the role, at
sight, in her grammar school) and then looking at me with a certain
shudder of revulsion, would say "Are you sure you weren't given the
wrong child at the hospital?"

At which I would invariably put my arms around her protectively, and
say "Who cares? I'm keeping this one."

I told Robyn of this when we talked about the unwritten memo and
said that, listening to all the comments of this sort, she was in a
good position to make much of the very common fantasy of children
that their parents were not really their parents and that the
children were, instead, the kidnapped offspring of royalty.

"Never!" said Robyn, forcefully. "Never! Not for one moment at any
time did I ever doubt that you and Mamma were my parents."

Which pleases me. Both Robyn and I have a strong sense of duty. I
would dis- charge my paternal obligations punctiliously even if I
didn't particularly like her, and she would be equally punctilious,
I am quite certain, about being filial under such circumstances.
However, there is a tight bond of affection between the two of us
which makes all that duty an unbelievable pleasure.

And the same, I can't help thinking, goes for these essays. Having
agreed to provide the Noble Editor with one essay an issue, I would
certainly perform that chore dutifully even if it proved to be a
royal pain in the whatever.  However, I enjoy the process so much
that I keep it up month after month with a light laugh on my lips.
In fact, if I have difficulty, it lies in confining myself to doing
merely twelve a year.

[Followed by a long and very good essay on the scientific history of
the discovery of yeast and enzymes.]

Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great
Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong
place at the wrong time? Or with his smug, egocentric male
chauvinism toward his daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his
wife, whom he refuses to name? How about some- thing more
substantive - like why in the hell is this vignette included in a
science history article about the discovery of yeast? What does his
con- descension toward his beautiful daughter and his resultant foul
aspersions on her parentage have anything whatsoever to do with
anything that any human being besides an Asimov worshiper would
want to know? I mean, "unmistakable Asimovian features" my left
hand of darkness! Does anyone you know talk about his daughters
"Jacksonian features" or "Alberryesque features" or "Rospachian
features"? How many people do you know who would refer to their
daughters in print as "gorgeous women"? How many writers have you
ever read that would say "she was asked to play the role, at sight,
in her grammar school...", and totally forget that there is no such
construct as "at sight" (it is correctly "at first sight")?

More questions - how does even the demigod of science fiction, the
master of prolix spew, get away without having this kind of
ridiculous, embarrassing drivel of a father slobbering over the fact
that he actually raised a daughter that ended up looking good and
going into some sort of social worker program (that he not-so-subtly
hints at being amusingly disapproving of) edited out of his
otherwise good and informative article? Why does he think that
anyone in his right mind or even his left mind would find what he
has to say about his daughter, her adorable liberal tendencies and
her Aryan makeup, in any way germane to his article about yeast, or
even to the more global, meta- fictional point of essay-writing?

I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in?

Davis Tucker

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 85 18:36 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Canadian SF Writers

...and let's not forget Charles deLint, who I must assume is Canadian,
due to his subject matter.  His new book, MULENGRO, is a murder
mystery about Canadian Gypsys.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ag>

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Books by Robin McKinley
Date: 4 Oct 85 23:53:25 GMT

Another really good Robin McKinley is _The Door in the Hedge_, a
collection of four fairy tales.  They are retellings of classic
tales, as perfect as one could want, fit for reading oneself or to
your children (should you have any conveniently lying about).

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 09:00:49 edt
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: RE:  Hobbit height

Are you in luck.  I'm reading The Hobbit to my kid, and we just
covered that territory a couple of days ago.  I quote from page 10
of my library's edition:

"I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have
become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us.  They are
(or were) a little people, about half our height, and smaller than
the bearded dwarves."

------------------------------

Date: Tue 8 Oct 85 00:31:53-EDT
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: re: The Man who was a Jazz Band

Morris Keesan has a good memory.

"Double, Double, Toil and Trouble" (Holley Cantine, 1959) is indeed
in Judith Merril's 6th Annual Edition (The Year's Best S-F, 1961).
They reprinted it from "The Best from Fantasy And Science Fiction,
Tenth Series".

Now that everyone has read the two books that I mentioned Friday
(you all did, didn't you?), your next assignments are:

"A For Anything" or "The People Maker" (Damon Knight, 1959). The
classic work about the social impact of a duplicating machine. (In a
word, slavery.)

"The Eternity Brigade" (Stephen Goldin, 1980). The logical extension
of Knight's ideas into the realm of interstellar armies. It started
small...  with cryogenics ... but as in Haldeman's "The Forever
War", the soldiers soon found that they had no way out ...

                              Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 08:49 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Concerning personal duplication

I just read a story in the latest Best of Omni #n called Number 13.
It relates to the matter transmission/ duplication disscussion that
has been occuring.  The story concerns a colony ship that is looking
for a habitable planet.  Of course, someone must be woken up to
decide if it is worth landing on.  The guy who is woken up has been
grown from a template of the original and if he decides to abort the
landing, he has to grow old and die waiting for the next planet
while they grow a new version of him.  Needless to say he gains some
insight into himself from the log because he is Number 13.

It's a good story and presents another view of this whole original
versus duplicate thought patterns idea we have been bouncing around.
I recommend it.  The book also contains other good stories from the
pages of Omni, including Rutvarra's Case (sp) by Philip K Dick and
Amanda and the Alien by Robert Silverburg and A Teardrop Falls by
Larry Niven and a mess of other stories.  Joe Bob says check it out.

Jon

------------------------------

From: genie!sonja@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sonja Bock)
Subject: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 7 Oct 85 23:50:21 GMT

In answer to the fellow who asked for an After-The-End anthology.

The after-doomsday theme is one that has been handled often in both
sci-fi and mainstream literature.

Taking the 'man in the rubble' description loosely, here is a list
of those that come most easily to mind.

By the Waters of Babylon, S. Vincent Binet.  Short story.

A Canticle for Liebowitz.  Walter H.  Miller.  Probably the closest
thing to a classic of this genre.

Damnation Alley.  Zelazny (or perhaps Silverberg, I forget which).
Pretty road-warriorish.

Riddly Walker.  Russel Hoban.  Once you get past the new language,
it's very good.

Nightwings.  Silverberg.  Way after the end, caused by invasion of
aliens.

Tom O'Bedlam.  Silverberg.  Still in hardback.  Mysticism and
mutation.

God's Grace.  Bernard Malamud.  The last primates on Earth are a Jew
and his chimp.

The Stand.  Stephan King.  The end is caused by a mutated virus
rather than nuclear war.

Where Late the Sweet Bird Sang.  Kate Wilhelm.

Galapagos.  Kurt Vonnegut.  Still in hardback.

Lucifer's Hammer.  Niven/Pournelle.  End caused by falling
meteor/asteroid.

The Wild Shore.  Kim Stanley Robinson.

In the Drift.  Michael Swanwick.

Radix.  New Paperback.  Perhaps a classic.  Forget the author.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Oct 85 15:42 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: SF on TV

Junk TV?

Is this what we are watching?  Is there any social redeeming value
in the Twilight Zone, Amazing Stories, or Alfred Hitchcock Presents?
And what about the Misfits of Science?  I won't answer these
questions, but I will ramble on a bit about why I think the arrows
are hitting close to the mark.

While the Twilight Zone's first episode's opener was a treatise on a
man bettering himself (or being replaced by his better half), the
second story was merely a rehash on an old theme of stopping the
clock and being unable to start it up again.  Neither story told us
much about people, and neither gave us any insight into how we could
better the world.

Now, I'm not saying that every story must have a moral, but it is
much more enjoyable to me to have some way of relating to a story.
The first TZ was good because it told of the struggle between good
and bad that goes on within a person. That sort of thing happens to
all of us. The second had no such connection.

The second episode of TZ had three stories, but fit into two
categories.  The first two were completely off the wall, I don't
belong here and can't cope scenarios.  Once again, these provide
little insight into how these people dealt with the problem.  Not so
with the third story.  The scientists are trying to understand
something outside of their understanding, and must come to grips
with a shapechanging monster that can absorb people.  They have two
questions to deal with, is it a monster, and can they stop it?  They
find that they cannot and it does not kill anyone else.  It turns
out to be a creature very much like ourselves, curious about the
universe.

So far, I say that TZ is batting 40%.  On TV that is pretty good.  I
think Amazing Stories is doing a bit better at 50%.  This means
little with so few cases though.

The first episode was too predictable and had nothing to learn from.
It was merely a repeat of a comic book we had all read before.  The
second episode had much more to offer.  If only to demonstrate the
popular law that if you are nasty, you'll get yours.  It also had
humor and an ending that wasn't foretold from the start of the show
(although it could be anticipated). One for two isn't bad for TV.

And I think it may be universal, but Alfred is batting 1000!  Good
stuff.  The previews even helped to fool us.  "A lovesick nurse"
indeed!  We kept saying, "She can't be that stupid!" all through the
show, but were we surprised.  A bit incredulous.  After all, would
they let the cop's wife take care of her husband's killer?  I think
not, but that helped add to the surprise element.

As for the Misfits of Science all I can say is that I liked Flag and
Ferretface together as the bad guys, but the show lacked a sense of
reality.  It was all too hokey to even suspend disbelief.  Perhaps
it needs the Batman/A Team outlook, i.e. complete camp.  We'll see,
but if it is going to compete with the Twilight Zone, it will need
some strong scripts and not the old formulae.

These views are on their own as soon as you read them.  I do not
claim any responsibility for your interpretation of them or the
opinions they may proclaim.  Thank you and good night.

Jon

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!moews_b@topaz.rutgers.edu (david moews)
Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc.
Date: 7 Oct 85 22:54:03 GMT

> Imagine that you can digitise a computer, in order to restore it
> exactly to the point it was at which you digitised it, you must
> also store the information in it's memory, this is not matter, it
> is energy. The problem comes when you try to restore all of the
> processes running in the computer that you had when you started,
> and make it all continue.

     But...computers store data by moving around electrons, so the
data in a computer's memory *is* included in the structure of the
"matter" in the computer. If all the electron positions were
recorded correctly, the computer would presumably continue running
with no problems.  Anyway, it's not clear that the matter vs. energy
distinction is really relevant at this level (one might view a
photon as a material particle instead of an energy packet), so
matter transmitters will have to scan all the mass/energy in an
object (somehow) before reproducing it.

                                  David Moews
                                  ...!harvard!h-sc4!moews
                                  moews%h-sc4@harvard.arpa

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc.
Date: 8 Oct 85 08:16:26 GMT

> Imagine that you can digitise a computer, in order to restore it
> exactly to the point it was at which you digitised it, you must
> also store the information in it's memory, this is not matter, it
> is energy.

Ah!  But all you need do to `remember' the state of a memory chip is
to record not only the positions of all those electrons, but their
velocity as well!  :-)

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Subject: Alma Maters
Date: 06 Oct 85 15:17:43 PDT (Sun)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@UCI-ICSE.ARPA>

        In a non-sf light, the Beach Boys went to the same high
school as I did.  The song 'Be True to Your School' holds a bit of
special meaning to all us Hawthorne High graduates.
        As regards current stuff, Dr. Greg Benford teaches right
here at UCI.  I've sat in on a couple of his lectures.  I can gladly
report that his lecturing technique is far better than his writing.
        Are there any UCSD or USD people reading this ?  If so, tell
us all what Dr. David Brin is like as an instructor as opposed to as
a writer.
                Dave Godwin
                University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 85 0925-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #400
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 11 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 400?!

Today's Topics:

           Books - Campbell & Ellison & Farmer & Koontz &
                   LeGuin & Tolkien (3 msgs),
           Radio - Doc Savage,
           Television - The New Season,
           Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (3 msgs) &
                   SF-LOVERS & Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER by R. Campbell
Date: 9 Oct 85 23:55:07 GMT

           THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER by Ramsey Campbell
                             Tor, 1985
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Ramsey Campbell is a popular British horror story writer and
editor.  He has become a very familiar name in horror circles for
such a young man.  He was born in 1946 and has been publishing
stories for 23 years.  As with most horror writers, I'd never read
anything by him until recently.

     THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER is every bit as grim a horror novel
as the title indicates.
                      [*minor spoiler alert*]
     The story (which rumor has it has been banned in Britain)
concerns a pretty vicious young man who not only enjoys killing for
fun in all sorts of creative ways, he also likes to eat his victims.
There is just enough of a supernatural bent to the story to make it
fantasy instead of simply a gruesome murder mystery, but not enough
to make it really worthwhile as a supernatural horror story.

     Some of Campbell's prose is crisp and sharp, yet other chapters
I thought were really hard reading.  When things really start
happening the prose becomes so terse that I found I had to read some
scenes two or three times before I could piece together exactly what
was happening.  Other places he has whole chapters that do very
little to advance the story.

     THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER is not a very creative horror
story, but it is told in crisp tones of black and white, much like
the cover of the Tor Books edition.  The story is cold and grim.
The characters are pretty flat and uninteresting.  But it does tell
a story of moderate suspense.  On the scale of -4 to +4 it probably
should get a non-committal +1.

------------------------------

From: tomczak@harvard.ARPA (Bill Tomczak)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 9 Oct 85 01:26:14 GMT

One of my favorites in the 'apocalypse' vein is Harlan Ellison's _I
have no Mouth and I Must Scream_ in the anthology by the same name
(he also wrote _a Boy and his dog_ which you can find in the _The
Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_ anthology.)

Bill Tomczak@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K)
Subject: Re: reincarnation
Date: 8 Oct 85 20:26:03 GMT

How could a discussion about reincarnation and duplication go very
far without mentioning the Riverworld series by Farmer?

                                Scott J. Berry
                                ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: NIGHTMARE JOURNEY by Dean R. Koontz
Date: 7 Oct 85 02:49:52 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "One hundred thousand years in the future, after man has been
  fatally humbled by his exploration of the stars and discovery of
  far more intelligent beings, civilization is struggling to return
  to the planet's surface.

  After man fled the stars, he tried to explore his own genetic
  frontier, creating horrible races of deformed beings--some scaled,
  some furred, tiny, winged, and huge. Now Jask, a Pure who retains
  the original human genetic code, and Tedesco, a great bear with a
  human mind, are thrown together by their one shared and fatal
  trait--telepathy. Hunted like animals by the fearful populace,
  they go in search of The Black Presence-- which may be the key to
  mankind's place in the cosmos."

The jacket is fairly accurate about the story. The author divides
his time between Jask learning how to rethink his views on the world
(and, in particular, about non-Pure creatures), and adventures on
the way to The Black Presence.

The story is fairly interesting, but not enough time is spent on any
one thing to grab the reader. About half way through the book Jask
and Tedesco meet other espers, and the reader's identification with
and interest in the characters is diluted further.

Still, it was an interesting two hours of reading, and I give the
book 3 stars (good). By the way, the book's not new. The copyright
is 1975.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ORSINIAN TALES by Ursula K. LeGuin
Date: 9 Oct 85 10:24:32 GMT

> From: druri!dht       (Davis Tucker)
>     Despite its cover, and despite the publisher's blurb, this is
> *not* a science-fiction *or* fantasy collection. The tales are of
> Hungary, and Hungarians, and it seems that the only reason why
> "Orsinia" is mentioned at all is to fool the unsuspecting
> science-fiction fan who refuses to read anything else

Or perhaps it's because everyone knows that LeGuin is a science
fiction writer, and thus anything she writes must be science
fiction. (Add one large dollop of sarcasm.)

I have to agree with your assessment of ORSINIAN TALES, and I feel
obliged to point out a related novel of hers, MALAFRENA, that should
also be to your liking (though I didn't enjoy it quite as much as
ORSINIAN TALES).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: perhaps a silly (or dead) question...
Date: 8 Oct 85 10:15:46 GMT

Since no one else has undertaken to answer this question, I shall do
so.  dorettas@iddic.UUCP (Doretta Schrock) asks:

> How tall is a Hobbit???

Here is the answer, right from the source---the Prologue to TLotR,
by Mr. Tolkien himself.  I have taken the liberty of extracting only
the relevant paragraph:

        For they are a little people, smaller than Dwarves: less
        stout and stocky, that is, even when they are not actually
        much shorter.  Their height is variable, ranging between two
        and four feet of our measure.  They seldom now reach three
        feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days
        they were taller.  According to the Red Book, Bandobras Took
        (Bullroarer), son of Isengrim the Second, was four foot five
        and able to ride a horse.  He was surpassed in all Hobbit
        records only by two famous characters of old; but that
        curious matter is dealt with in this book.

The two famous characters were, of course, none other than Meriadoc
Brandybuck and Peregrin Took.  If you wish to know more, read the
Prologue yourself; or have a chat with your friendly neighbourhood
Elf, if you can find him---we have become rather scarce.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  8 Oct 85 23:17:43 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Hobbit height
To: iddic!dorettas@topaz.ARPA (Doretta Schrock)

>iddic!dorettas@topaz.arpa (Doretta Schrock):
> I believe Tolkein described them as looking like 10-year olds to
> the men of Gondor,

Don't forget that the men of Gondor dealt primarily with Merry and
Pippin after the two had spent some time with the ents.  They were
described several (many?) as being very tall for hobbits after their
adventures with Treebeard and company (a result of their drinking
entdraught).  Remember how Sam reacted when he first saw them on the
field of Cormallen?  He mistook them for boys, until he recognized
their faces.

Doesn't _The_Hobbit_ have a good description?  I don't have my copy
with me right now....

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

From: columbia!ji@topaz.rutgers.edu (ji)
Subject: Re: perhaps a silly (or dead) question...
Date: 9 Oct 85 01:53:24 GMT

> How tall is a Hobbit???

I don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty sure that you can
figure it from the illustrations. My idea is somewhat like 120cm
(4ft). BTW, the name is Tolkien.

ARPA:  IOANNIDIS@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA
UUCP:  ...!seismo!columbia!ji

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  9 Oct 1985 03:31:25-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Doc Savage on NPR

> From: Charles Martin <Martin@YALE.ARPA>
> This morning I heard an blurb for a "Doc Savage" radio adventure
> show, to be broadcast at 4pm today (Monday) on National Public
> Radio.  Probably a weekly occurance.  Doc did the advertisement;
> sounds like a good voice.

This past July, at Pulpcon, I heard a couple of episodes of the
first serial, an adaptation of FEAR CAY. I didn't care for *all* of
the voices, but most of them were quite good, and the adaptation was
well-done. And I'm not even much of a radio-drama fan (though I am a
Doc fan). Following FEAR CAY should be an adaptation of THE
THOUSAND-HEADED MAN. It will depend on how well these two serials do
as to whether there will be any more.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Old Pa and other Amazing Stories
Date: 9 Oct 85 20:18:03 GMT

> Well, Amazing Stories was fun this week: we're all the way up to
> the 40s in terms of the SF they're using.  Oh boy!  "Star
> Attraction" was predictable, ruined by the title and the
> commercials, and derogatory to nurdly women.

I give AMAZING STORIES one more week to be something other than
HO-HUM STORIES before I give up on it entirely.  (BTW, it was "The
Main Attraction", not "Star Attraction".)

On the other hand, I really like THE TWILIGHT ZONE, now the first TV
show to be "filmed on location in space" (as HARDWARE WARS would
say).
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!jbs@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jeff Siegal)
Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc.
Date: 8 Oct 85 20:31:25 GMT

moews_b@h-sc1.UUCP (david moews) writes:
>     But...computers store data by moving around electrons, so the
>data in a computer's memory *is* included in the structure of the
>"matter" in the computer. If all the electron positions were
>recorded correctly, the computer would presumably continue running
>with no problems.  Anyway, it's not clear that the matter vs.
>energy distinction is really relevant at this level (one might view
>a photon as a material particle instead of an energy packet), so
>matter transmitters will have to scan all the mass/energy in an
>object (somehow) before reproducing it.

Wrong!  The position of an electron is NOT sufficient information to
reproduce the state of the object (be it a computer memory, human
mind, or whatever).  The momentium of the electron is an independent
quantity which must be measured and reproduced.  Now, here is the
relevant point: Modern quantum mechanics tells us that the lower
limit for the product of the uncertainty obtained when measuring the
position of an electon and its momentium is h, Plank's constant.
So, it appears this is the end of the line for matter
transmission....(unless...:-))

Jeff Siegal - MIT EECS

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 02:19:27 PDT
Subject: Death, Sole, and Memory

On the Matter Resurrection Issue:
        I once (in the process of paytesting a friends gaming
system) devloped a character who had many of the problems associated
with the current discussion.  Enough so that the character was
abanded because of them.

        Replecator could duplicate matter.  Not create matter, only
recreate and replace the lost energy that made up the snapshot that
he stored.  He could also store a copy of himself at an earlier age
and replicate himself and the expence of the aged 'version'.  The
new 'copy' would awaken in a world that he new the other had to
leave and in one in which he had been prepared for. Interestingly
this created a immortial creature with a very limited memory span.
This created the need for VERY accurate diaries and many books on
languages since the creation would only have the memory of a single
life span and not the life that preceeded his recreation.
        Unfortunately the idea of being abile to recreate others,
was very disquiting to others.....

        Victor O'Rear
        Player of Alter Ego (The Game System companion to the CRC)

------------------------------

From: sdcc6!ix469@topaz.rutgers.edu (david smith)
Subject: Re: transporters
Date: 4 Oct 85 16:41:25 GMT

Here's a thought: If you zapped someone's matter into energy, would
each atom zapped give off a different frequency?  If so, and if you
could keep the beam intact, converting back with the same process of
frequency to atom conversion, you'd never really have to deal with
that massive amount of information.  matter=energy*(speed of
light)^2, so given you've got the same energy you started with,
you're still you.  If we have the exsistance of a soul, would it
just take off if the body was no longer intact, or would it stick
with what should be the body?
        Note that since the information is not really processed
anywhere (we'll assume that zapping matter to energy can be reversed
with atom x=frequency x=atom x again) it would not be readily
possible to make "clones".  A question.  Since you weren't killed,
but merely transformed, are you dead?

(This discussion is what we all get for taking Gene Rodenberry too
seriously:-)

David L. Smith
UC Sandy Eggo
{ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix469

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 85 00:29:31 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: In the archives there is ...

a humorous history of SF-L somewhere.  It was posted a few years ago
(no I don't remember how many, probably three to five though).

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 02:15:06 PDT
Subject: Further Evidence apon the accuraccy of Stormtroopers

It has been questioned that the Stormtroopers are the best gunners
in the Galaxy, yet their ability to hit two slow moving droids is
appalling.

Please note the following commentary with great historian Obi Won:

Fluke: "It looks like Sandpeople did this all right.  Look here are
        Gaffi Sticks, Bantha tracks, it's just....
        I never heard of them hitting anything this big before."

Augie: "They didn't.  But we are meant to think they did.  These
        tracks are side by side.  Sandpeople always ride single file
        to hide their numbers."

Fluke: "These are the same Jawas that sold us Artedeco and
Fourqutoo.

Augie: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople.  Only
        Imperial stormtroopers are so precise.

"The Art of Star Wars," Edited by Carol Titelman. Page 52

(A friend suggests that Augie Ben Doggie turns his head away to
prevent showing the grin from the last statement.....)

Victor O'Rear   {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
                crash!victoro@nosc   or   crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 85 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #401
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 12 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 401

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Brust & Campbell & Koontz &
                    Lessing & Zelazny,
            Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (3 msgs) &
                    Star Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Oct 85 08:59 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov, in F&SF

>From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
>EXCERPT FROM: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov THE MAGAZINE OF
>FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, 36th Anniversary Issue - OCT '85
>
>Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great
>Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong
>place at the wrong time? Or with his smug, egocentric male
>chauvinism toward his daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his
>wife, whom he refuses to name?

Ex-wife.  And, if his feelings on the subject as delivered in "In
Memory Yet Green" and "In Joy Still Felt" are to be accepted, he
avoids references to her more in sorrow than in anger.

As for his "smug, egocentric male chauvinism", how many men do you
know who are in the least objective about their offspring?  Where do
you come up with the idea that objectivity is even desireable in a
parent?  Besides, having seen said daughter once a few years ago, I
would say that Asimov is being far from generous in his praise.  In
simpler terms, he did good.

>How about something more substantive - like why in the hell is this
>vignette included in a science history article about the discovery
>of yeast?

Why not?  As I recall from the days when I read F&SF regularly, the
good doctor always began his science column with some anecdote or
personal story.  In general, I found them at least as interesting as
the rest of the column.  When I've attended talks he has given, the
subject has generally been personal.  And the audience has eaten it
up!  Maybe the problem is that you can't stand the idea of someone
being liked when it isn't in direct proportion to the literary
merits of their work.

>I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in?

Doesn't surprise me in the least.  Personally, I doubt it.

    Davis Tucker

------------------------------

From: cstvax!db@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry)
Subject: Re: JHEREG by Stephen Brust
Date: 15 Oct 85 13:34:37 GMT

This follows a flame on the use of strange names in fantasy books
(see below).  I know some people who are put off fantasy/SF by the
names of the characters, saying it shows *LACK of imagination* on
the part of the author.  The argument goes something like this:
        If all the characters' speech is translated into English,
should not the names be translated also?  If necessary, names that
sound foreign to most english-speakers can be used for foreigners in
the book, etc.
        If the authors have to rely on strange names to create a
"sense of wonder", then they probably aren't good writers.
        If strange names are used, then they should have some
derivation, just as most english names have some derivation, such as
familial structure, reference to occupation etc.  Tolkien is
sometimes cited as a good example, I would think that Carolyn
Cherryh is another.  This way the names help to flesh out a world,
and give it substance, history etc.

I'm used to strange names and don't notice them.  I agree with the
last point above.  I'm not sure about the first two points, but
fantasy/SF writers could bear them in mind - why put people off
unnecessarily?

Minor points on the original article follow:

oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev x258) writes:
>In his review of JHEREG by Stephen Brust Mark R. Leeper writes
>>      Aside from the multiplicity of unfamiliar names--probably
>> not a drawback for most other readers--the story is fairly
>> well-written.  I did, however, all too often come up confused as
>> to who was who in the book and because of that, did not enjoy the
>> book as much as I might have.
>
>Oh, poor you! I bet you put away Zelazny's "Lord of Light" after
>the first few pages. And how often do you read historical books?
>Especially the ones on times and lands quite remote. I am sure
>you've never read any of the Russian great writers -- because you
>couldn't remember the names and places...  JHEREG does not sport an
>overwhelming cast of characters. Their names are easily remembered
>and pronunciation is given.

You're flaming here - obviously Mark didn't find them easy to
remember.  Just because you find something easy doesn't mean
everybody else will.

>Next time why don't you set up a list of names of characters you
>encounter in a book and who they are and just give them plain
>English names (for your own benefit) like "Joe", "Pete", etc. and
>think of everything in those terms.  And as long as we are at it
>why not replace magic with something else. Like cabs instead of
>teleports... CPR instead of "raise dead" spell...  If the story
>doesn't make any sense after all these transformations -- I guess
>it wasn't good enough to start with...

Often I find this can be done.  If the story does make sense after
all the transformations, there is little point writing it as
fantasy.  I like my fantasy/SF to show how the magic/technology
affects the characters/story.  Obviously you & Mark disagree on
whether Brust does this.  PS. what is CPR?

>As far as my opinion on Steven Brust's writing :
>  I think he is one of the finest new authors in fantasy/sf. JHEREG
>  (and its sequel YENDI) are enjoyable reading. His "To Reign in
>  Hell" was an exellent analysis of an old story and is a very
>  pleasant book.

I liked "To reign in hell".  However, I don't regard it as an
"analysis" of anything.  It's a fun retelling of some biblical
ideas, but that's all it is - good fun.  For example, it ignores
most of the old testament after the creation story.

Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh
...mcvax!ukc!{hwcs,kcl-cs}!cstvax!db

------------------------------

From: pur-ee!hsut@topaz.rutgers.edu (Bill Hsu)
Subject: Comments on horror
Date: 9 Oct 85 23:22:47 GMT

Re: Mark Leeper's review of The Doll Who Ate His Mother

        Well, looks like Ramsey Campbell is finally making his way
across the Atlantic. Back when I used to read horror regularly,
Campbell was one of my favorite authors. Recently, he has been
putting out more conventional horror novels, the only distinguishing
features being the overwhelmingly bleak world view expounded in his
fiction (quite a contrast to his happy interviews and book
introductions) and his terse, effective prose.

        Campbell started out as a Lovecraft clone and a member of
August Derleth's Arkham House stable, but soon turned out to be an
interesting and original writer. The earlier stuff is fairly
straightforward and easy-to-read horror, but his later stuff is much
denser and the convoluted prose and deliberate vagueness of his
descriptions of every day life competes for attention with the
relative simplicity of his plots.  His first collection (The
Occupant of the Lake???) is a good sampling of his Lovecraft period
(out-of-print and too expensive, sigh). The second collection Demons
by Daylight is very uneven, with some neat little pieces. The third
collection (Height of the Scream???) is representive of the
"difficult" Campbell, an unsettling anthology of pictures of the
vagueness and horror of everyday experience. There is also an
anthology Campbell edited, Superhorror, with a nice Campbell story
in it.

        I don't care much for Campbell's stuff after Height of the
Scream.  The Doll Who Ate His Mother had some nice moments but was
rather uneven.  I couldn't finish The Parasite --- it seemed
painfully conventional.  A lot of Ramsey Campbell reads badly as
conventional horror. I consider more of a good writer who happens to
enjoy working within the confines of the genre (another good example
would be Ian McEwan and his chilling first novel, The Cement
Garden). Campbell achieves interesting effects with minimal means
(read some of the stories from his third collection to see what I
mean). Too bad he decided he needed more money and started cranking
out more commercial stuff.

                                        Bill Hsu
                        {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!pur-ee!hsut

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K)
Subject: Re: NIGHTMARE JOURNEY by Dean R. Koontz
Date: 10 Oct 85 13:39:58 GMT

> creating horrible races of deformed beings--some scaled, some
> furred, tiny, winged, and huge. Now Jask, a Pure who retains the
> original human genetic code, and Tedesco, a great bear with a
> human mind, are thrown together by their one shared and fatal
> trait--telepathy. Hunted like animals by the fearful populace,
> they go in search of The Black Presence-- which may be the key to
> mankind's place in the cosmos."
>
>The jacket is fairly accurate about the story. The author divides
>his time between Jask learning how to rethink his views on the
>world (and, in particular, about non-Pure creatures), and
>adventures on the way to The Black Presence.
>
>Duane Morse    ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane

This sounds an awful lot like "Hiero's Journey" by Sterling Lanier
(and its sequel, the name of which escapes me just now).  These two
books are decent "soft", post-holocaust SF, although their depiction
of good/evil is somewhat simplistic (i.e. black-and-white, with no
grey).

I'd recommend 'em, however.  A good rendition of psionics.

                                Scott J. Berry
                                ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

From: cbscc!trb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Balent)
Subject: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing
Date: 9 Oct 85 16:45:52 GMT

I am looking for an opinion (or review) of the five book series by
Doris Lessing "Canopus in Argos: Archieves".

Has anyone out there read any or all of these books?  Are they worth
the time (and money)?

I have never read any of Ms Lessing's works, but a number of
reviewers seem to like her new, non-science fiction work. However,
in the reviews that I've read they all make some comment to the
effect that it is good to have her back from outer space.

So if there is anyone who has an opinion on the series, please share
it with me.
                        t.r. balent
                        ostg
                        at&t-ns columbus

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 85 08:11:43 PDT (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: Amber

                 ******** Spoiler Warning ********

Perhaps Luke/Rinaldo used Corwin's pattern, which appeared to have
power even in the original Amber multiverse.  That pattern is
unlikely to be so heavily watched as the main Amber pattern.  If he
later destroyed Corwin's pattern (out of spite for his father's
death) this would explain Corwin's insanity.

In any case, though, Brand had the power to move anywhere in shadow
in an instant. It is possible that Brand had a trump for the Amber
pattern as well.  In either case, Brand could easily have gotten
into the pattern with Rinaldo for the time needed to walk the
pattern.  As I remember, the Pattern room was well below dungeon
level in Amber, and very seldom entered.

Kurt

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Deja vu:  Editing stored matter transmitter images
Date: 8 Oct 85 23:53:59 GMT

Imagine the ramifications of some business taking a basic human they
found best for a certain job, making modifications to the person,
and then just copying the person off.  Re-create them from stored
images daily, and they won't strike, if you just re-start them each
morning and terminate them in the evening.  Or perhaps if you copied
yourself off, you could do twice the amount of work in a given day.
Do you get paid overtime?
        And how about assassination?  Not only could you restore the
backup of the President or whoever, you could kill the President and
take his backup hostage!  ("We have the tape with a recording of
Ronald Reagan on it.  We are going to destroy vital bytes telling
which parts of his body go where every day.  The more you wait
before ransoming, the more screwed up he'll look when you reboot
him.")
        If you can do that, look at travel.  If I want to go over
and visit a friend of mine on the USENET, I leave a backup copy at
home in case UUCP fails and my friend will just download the copy
that travels.  ZAP!  I can take a short vacation in the time it
takes for this message to travel to him.  Larry Niven did a series
on a society with teleport booths, I can't remember which stories
are in which books.  A sure sign I need to re-read them.
        Could you imagine what would happen if a bit of line noise
got you?  Could be nasty.  That's the only reason I don't want to go
through- until they have it 100% perfect, I don't want to have my
body and the various chemicals and electrical impulses stored in
this lump of grey matter between my ears mangled, not my
hypothetical soul!
                                                Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Oct 85 07:13:19 CDT
From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX
Subject: Matter Transmission, Copying, etc.

When an amoeba divides into two new amoebas, each an exact copy of
the original, which is the "original"?  There is no choice between
them.  The same argument holds for the transmitter/copier; both
results will believe themselves to be the original.  Don Provan and
some others seem to be arguing that there must be a continuity of
consciousness from the original to one of the results, making it the
"original".  But if the copy is perfect, consciousness itself is
duplicated, so there is a continuity from the original to *both*
results; perhaps it is better to think of it as twinning, like the
amoeba, than as copying.

A wild but intriguing possibility is that the results might have
*one* consciousness shared among their bodies.  There was a great
story called "Let's Be Frank" (author forgotten) which dealt with a
shared-consciousness mutation in the human race.  I highly recommend
it; I'll try to research the author's name (unless somebody posts it
first.)
                               marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 10 Oct 85 12:48:34-CDT
From: Mayank Prakash <AI.Mayank@MCC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission.
To: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU

>i think a recent post (which, i believe, was arguing against me)
>said it best: "'Having the same indentity' is not an equivalence
>relation."  exactly my point.  just because it looks like me, talks
>like me, smells like me, acts like me, and thinks it is me doesn't
>make it me.

Then why don't you tell us what makes you "you", instead of raving
about what doesn't?

mayank.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 85 13:18:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Lightsabres vs. Blasters ---

On Lightsabres:

   Lightsabres as a pseudo-living artifact.  Think about it.  In the
third book there is a chapter talking about how Luke builds his
light- sabre w/ tools found in Ben's old hut.  Also mentioning the
quasi- organic appearance of some of the pieces.  Suppose that a
light- sabre is not a technology-only device?  It takes some
application of the Force to build (poss. not to use, but certainly
to build).  It would be far rarer than a blaster, and a badge of
office to the Jedi Knights.  Possibly a lightsabre will stop working
when it's builder dies?  I doubt that Ben pressed the "off" button
before being struck down by Vader...  (Let's not get into whether
Ben is really alive or dead here...)  Luke would not have that
problem w/ his father's sabre because Vader is alive & well.....

How about it?   Better than Sinclair Molecular Chain?

                        Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 85 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #402
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 402

Today's Topics:

        Books - Lessing & Niven & End of the World Stories &
                Doc Savage,
        Television - Amazing Stories & Alfred Hitchcock,
        Miscellaneous - Alma Maters & Time Travel &
                Orson Welles & Matter Transmission (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bunny!ehn0@topaz.rutgers.edu (Eric Nyberg)
Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing
Date: 10 Oct 85 12:46:28 GMT

>I am looking for an opinion (or review) of the five book series by
>Doris Lessing "Canopus in Argos: Archieves".

I have started reading the series. The first book, "Shikasta," is in
my opinion an excellent book. It is difficult to characterize;
although there are many elements of fantasy and SF in the story, the
main focus is on "the decline of man" and the futility of modern
politics, new/old generations and their relationships, etc. I was
definitely blown away by the book, but I can't say whether anyone
else would be for sure.

I've started the second book (I think it's called "Marriage between
Zones 4 and 5"), and it is completely different from "Shikasta." It
is almost a fairy tale about a marriage between the female leader of
a very peaceful, advanced culture and the crude warrior-king of a
warring race, ostensibly to create a balance in the cosmos. That's
about all I can tell you - so far I like this one, too.

I'm not sure that Lessing's SF is the best place to start. I have
also read "Briefing for a Descent into Hell," which is one hell of a
book (arrgh, bad pun). If you like psychological/dream-like fiction,
this book is for you. In fact, there are notable similarities
between the style of this book and some of Gene Wolfe's stories.
There is also the "Children of Violence" series, which I have
started, but I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it. Set in South
Africa, the story seems to be drawn from Lessing's own experiences
as a young woman, but the protagonist seems shallow, uncertain, and
downright exasperating at times. There are five books in this series
too, ending with "The 4-Gated City," which my wife has read and
claims is excellent; it takes place in post-holocaust London. I'm
not sure I can stand the next 3 books in the series in order to get
there, though.

As you can tell from my long-winded reply, I am definitely a Doris
Lessing fan (of sorts). I would be glad to discuss any of her books
with you if you decide to read them.

Regards,
Eric Nyberg, 3rd
CSNET: ehn0@gte-labs
UUCP: ..harvard!bunny!ehn0
GTE Laboratories, Dept. 317
40 Sylvan Rd.
Waltham, MA  02254
(617) 466-2518

------------------------------

From: okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Doctor Who)
Subject: Re: The Ringworld Polar Projection Maps
Date: 10 Oct 85 15:06:34 GMT

> From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
> The time line isn't right for it to be any other way. I suspect,
> and I'd have to reread the timeline in Known Space, that about the
> time Phssthpok was entering the Sol system, the Puppeteers were
> greedily seeding Ringworld with the superconductor pathogen, (give
> or take a thousand years).

The Puppetteers seeded the Ringworld around 1732 AD. [1]

> An important fact to remember here is that the Ringworld is
> mobile. The Ringworlds sun could be flared by manipuating the
> magnetic effects of portions of the Ringworld 'scrith'. The sun
> would move and the Ringworld's attitude jets would chug furiously
> to keep up.

Sorry, but the Ringworld will be "tethered" to its sun by gravity.
The attittude jets need only be used for lateral movement of the
Ringworld.

> Someone will probably be delighted to calculate what it's maximum
> speed and acceleration might be, but I suggest that both would be
> sufficient to be able to escape the core explosion.

The acceleration is EXTREMELEY small, but the sun has a lot of fuel
to use.  And, when the sun has expended all its material, the scrith
can generate a ramscoop field and thus propel itself and provide
light for the surface.  (Granted that the color will be off, by
quite a bit....)

> I advance the theory that the Ringworld is some giantic Noah's
> Ark. It was built near the core world of Pak by breederless
> Protectors who had staved off death by starvation by generalizing
> their protective instincts to generic Pak and, yes, even non-Pak
> species.

The problem there is if this is so, why did they build it so near
Earth where the exploratory Pak are?  Seems to me that if they
wanted to stay well away from them, they would explore in the
OPPOSITE direction that the first Pak went in.

> I believe that the Ringworld has been traveling hither and yon
> thourghout the galaxy for quite some time. During that time the
> Pak have collected species and built replicas of the species home
> planets.

Hmm, interesting theory.  But it makes no sense.  First of all, the
Known Space planets are by no means on a straight line.  They would
need interstellar craft to reach all the myriad planets.  Second,
the puppetteers would have noticed the Ringworld long before they
claim they did.  Same goes for the Kzinti.

[1] Cf, Chaosium's Role-Playing game "Ringworld" (Check out the
credits :-)

Jeff Okamoto
okamoto@BERKELEY.EDU
..!ucbvax!okamoto

------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF
Date: 9 Oct 85 09:04:24 GMT

> In answer to the fellow who asked for an After-The-End anthology.
>
> The after-doomsday theme is one that has been handled often in
> both sci-fi and mainstream literature.

Geez!  If you're going to post this to sf-lovers, too, please don't
use the term ``sci-fi''.  ``SF'' is much nicer.  ``Sci-fi'' brings
to mind Japanese monster flicks.

> Damnation Alley.  Zelazny (or perhaps Silverberg, I forget which).
> Pretty road-warriorish.

It was Zelazny.  Not particularly at his best.  Never saw the movie
they made out of this.  Anyone seen it and/or liked it?

I didn't see the original article, but if the requester was looking
for stories set after the fall of civilization (not necessarily
ours), I'd recommend:

        ``Nightfall'' by Isaac Asimov.  A classic short story about
        a world orbitting multiple suns, forever in daylight, where
        civilization crumbles each epoch in which all of the
        planet's suns are eclipsed simultaneously.

        ``A World Out Of Time'' by Larry Niven.  Thrown three
        million years into the future by a relativistic space
        voyage, the hero returns to Earth to find the survivors of
        humanity living among the ruins.

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: DS: Bantam Reprints (was re: Doc Savage on NPR)
Date: 9 Oct 85 15:15:12 GMT

Speaking of Doc Savage, anyone know what happened to the Bantam
reprints?  `The All White Elf' and `The Running Skeleton' was due
out in July as I recall....

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Old Pa and other Amazing Stories
Date: 9 Oct 85 13:56:00 GMT

Ah, but this second episode of Amazing Stories deserves more comment
in passing.  Such subtle, delicately nuanced characterization, not
unlike Steve Martin playing Hamlet.  The striving for consistent
moral outlook, full of the cogent meanings and latent ambiguities
but rarely found in authentic replicas of fortune cookies.
Motivations of individuals and relationships between these
individuals events woven into a tapestry (travesty?) of cause and
effect not seen since Heisenberg first dreamed of an electron
farting.  And finally, the science; even I, who am inclined to let
minor points go by for the sake of dramatic or literary license was
dumber-struck at the sheer elan with which Spielberg extended his
range of scientific facts and plausibilities to new, if not outer,
limits.

Nay, my friends, let us not let this second episode of Amazing go by
with such little notice.  (And God help the magazine of the same
name if they expect *this* TV show to bail them out!)

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: Thu 10 Oct 85 17:17:23-PDT
From: Haruka Takano <Takano%hplabs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Afred Hitchcock remakes?

I know the first episode was a remake (because I thought the
original was a classic), but does anyone know whether or not the
second episode was also an updating of an old show (I got the
strongest feeling of deja vu when I saw that final scene)?

Haruka

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 85 23:19:13 EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Alma Mater's claim to SF notables ...

Rutgers University lays claim to James Blish ...  Don't ask me where
I saw it, I don't have enough of my books to check on it, but James
Blish attended Rutgers for an undergraduate degree in (I think)
zoology.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 85 17:24:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: small essay on time and it's aspects....

Startup on a new (for the recent past on SF-L) topic:
   Time Travel

Re-reading _The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat_ (the original
trilogy in one volume) I come across an aspect of time travel that I
have thought about before, but never quite seen addressed.  That
there are really THREE types of time involved when dealing w/ time
travel.

Objective time is the standard time around now....and what we are
traveling IN.

Subjective time is your personal history.

Meta time involves time-travel events.

To elucidate:
Pierre Boulle (in his story Time Out of Mind) covers subjective time
fairly well: Person A kills Person B somewhere in the past....then
Person A continues to the future, where he is killed by (you guessed
it) Person B, who then continues back the past where he is killed by
Person A.  Each Person kills the other before he is killed by them
(subjectively).

Meta time travel involves things like "Time Barriers", in The
Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World, (the third book), he cannot
travel back before 1807 (or so) because The Enemy has set up a time
barrier.  Thus he cannot travel back to 1800 or so, arriving before
the Enemy does, and defeat him that way.  The Meta aspect is: At
some "time" there was no barrier to travel before 1807, and at some
"future" time there will again be no barrier.  HOWEVER, for the
(meta)duration of the barriers existence, NO ONE may travel back
before 1807 regardless of whether they are (objective) 100 years or
30,000 years in the future.

The "duration" of the existence of the barrier is an instance of
"Meta time".

Has anyone any thoughts on these three distinctions?  Has anyone
seen a story where all three are brought into play?  (Objective and
Subjective time are dealt with frequently, but Meta time seems to be
ignored (and rightly so...it would be a difficult concept....can you
now imagine traveling in Meta time??? You could travel to
(objective) 1800 by FIRST traveling back a month in Meta time, to
"before" the barrier was put up...))

                        Richard Hartman
                        max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

Subject: Orson Welles
Date: 10 Oct 85 20:19:18 PDT (Thu)
From: Doug Krause <ops@UCI-ICSA.ARPA>

So long to Orson Welles, creator of the best science fiction radio
program ever.

doug krause
dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 10 Oct 85 21:04:18-CDT
From: Mayank Prakash <AI.Mayank@MCC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Matter Transmission.
To: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU

>no.  you're the one trying to get me into a disintegrator.  you'll
>have to explain to me how the copy of me you're going to make is
>going to have my consciousness in it.  not a copy of my
>consciousness, but *my* consciousness.  so far all you've said is
>"it looks like a cow.  it acts like a cow.  it must be a cow."  all
>i've been saying is "it might be a cow, but it isn't the same cow."
>
>my point is simple.

No, your point is not simple. What *is* your consciousness, and how
is it to be distinguished from a copy of it? Before I can explain to
you how a copy of you may have your consciousness, in fact before we
can communicate with each other at all, we must come to an agreement
as to the meaning of terms that we use. I find your interpretation
of the word *consciousness* very vague and meaningless (and perhaps,
a little romantic), and therefore I want to understand more clearly
what is it that you mean by it.

>original, the experience will be the same regardless of whether or
>not the recording device is connected: he will walk into a
>disintegrator and die.  all you guys are claiming that if the
>recorder is disconnected, he'll die, but if it is connected he
>won't die.  sounds implausible to me.

You are getting confused because there are two things involved here
- a transportation mechanism, and a life support system. If the
first fails, you don't go anywhere, if the second fails, you die.
The only difference is that they are both well integrated with each
other in this case, so failure of one is also failure of the other.
To consider an analogy, you walk into a spaceship, and make a trip
to, say, the moon. If the transportation mechanism (the rockets, the
navigation equipment etc.) breaks down, you end up in some SF
location. If the life support system fails, you die.  If both are
run by the same computer, then your dead body reaches some unknown
realms of space.  The transporter is not much different. (Witness
Captain Kirk and his crew that has survived numerous such trips).

mayank.

------------------------------

From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg)
Subject: Re: stored matter transmitter images
Date: 9 Oct 85 22:21:04 GMT

chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes:
>I have often wondered what I would do with a copy of myself---or
>perhaps what a copy of myself would do with me.  For instance, when
>I got up this afternoon I needed to do my laundry.  Suppose I
>created an exact duplicate.  One of me could do the laundry while
>the other read net.sf-lovers.

Then the other one wouldn't have read net.sf-lovers and probably
gotten very mad that you made him go out and do the laundry while
you just sat around and read.

>But if he were an exact duplicate, he (I?---we seem to need new
>pronouns) would want to read net.sf-lovers and have me do the
>laundry.  How could we come to an agreement?  (Perhaps I would do
>the washing and he the drying... :-) )

Try editing the part of the brain labelled "self-motivation".  Turn
it off for a while.  When you need a servant, zap him up off the
backup tape, give orders, and have him report to the demat machine
when finished.  Of course, humanitarians would shit bricks sideways
if they found out about such callous use of computer-generated
clones...
                                                Carl Greenberg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1985 10:28:32 GMT (Friday)
From: Keith Dale <kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa>
Subject: Matter transmission

One of the Star Trek novels, Price of the Phoenix by [two women
authors whose names escape me], deals with the problem of identical
copies of a person coexisting ("Will the real James Kirk please
stand up.").  The story is done very well and shows (to me, at
least) that the authors must have had discussions similar to that
raging on the net lately.  It does get involved, even (gasp!) makes
you think (:-), and should be a good way to gather more fuel for
this debate.

Also, I thought it was a good read, but then I like most everything
that I read.  How about some criticisms?  Am I wrong to like it?
(:-)
                                             Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 85 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #403
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 403

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Lessing,
                 Films - Star Trek IV,
                 Television - Amazing Stories,
                 Miscellaneous - Writers as Instructors &
                         Matter Transmission (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 08:37 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Davis Tucker/Asimov <SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #399>

    Sorry--just have to respond...When I read Asimov's introduction 
which you so kindly provided, I remember thinking "sounds just like 
Asimov, I wonder what point he (Davis Tucker) is trying to make?...  
maybe something about the offspring of writers..." I personally had to
push myself to find the "negative" items Davis points out/interprets
in what Asimov wrote (but yes I COULD find them), but then "I" have
enough problems without looking for more to upset me.
    I tend to ramble on about my handsome, smart son (who is 7 and 
very charming) as well--both verbally and in my writing (from book 
reviews to reports); I also tend to bring up the subject of my husband
who is tall, dark, handsome, intelligent, and a civil engineer!  His
only serious flaw is that he doesn't like computers...he will tolerate
them as long as HE does not have to work with them much!  It is hard
for me to edit my informal speaking, but since I am only a fledgling
writer my personal anecdotes go in the introductory paragraph with a
page eject before and after so that they are easily removed.
    But fair warning!: When I have attained (in my opinion, a lofty 
goal) the writing stature of Asimov, you will be subjected to my 
personal reminiscences!  Many people who are taken with their friends,
family, pets, etc quite unknowingly subject other people to "stories"
about them...it's a function of personality!  Granted, it can get on
one's nerves--but I personally like it (if it feels warm and natural)
because it makes the publicly well-known person more "real and human"
to me.
                        Roz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 13:28:29 EDT
From: Joel B Levin <levin@bbncc2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Excerpt from essay by Isaac Asimov
To: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu

I don't usually respond to this (or any) type of criticism, not
being much of a critic myself, and, since you wrote your message
over three days ago, I am sure you will have received several
responses already; I am nevertheless moved to respond to your
critique of Asimov's introduction to his essay.

You ask: "Could sombody clue me in?" I will offer my personal
explanation, but I expect it won't help.  Just as there are people
whom you just don't much like, even though they may themselves have
many close friends, I would guess you simply don't like this aspect
of Asimov's writing.

I have been reading Asimov as long as I have been reading SF (almost
as long as I have been reading, over 30 years).  He has been writing
this way all that time, usually in introductions to other people's
books or to stories in anthologies, and I always thought he was
pretty funny.  The clue that you are seeking must be that lump in
his cheek caused by a firmly planted tongue.  If you don't believe
that he is humorous when writing in this vein, then, sure enough,
you will find plenty to object to in the words.  I believe it is
true of much satire or parody that when a reader misses the humorous
point or tone and takes the words seriously, he or she will find
much that is objectionable.  In fact, your message reminds me of
occasional flaming responses to SFL digest articles in which the
author could have, but did not, insert smiley faces.  Certainly no
author's style of humor will reach 100% of the audience.  I expect
you should just count yourself in that portion which does not care
for it, and forget about it.  (Skip over the first part of the F&SF
essays if you want to read their meat.)  For me, if this type of
writing is amusing, that is enough.

"...why in the hell is this vignette included in a science history
article...?" Because that is what Asimov does in an F&SF essay.  It
is not what someone else would do there, and it is not what he would
do in a book or text about science (other than a collection of his
essays, of course).  It is what is expected of him, it is what the
editor buys.  If most readers had felt the way you do when he began
writing in this style, it would not have lasted this long.

One final note: In the excerpt you quoted, I could find few commas I
could disagree with.  I would ADD one after "friends of mine"; I
would ADD another after "would say"; I would ADD another after "and
say" in the next paragraph.  A number of the commas he used I would
consider optional, and a couple places could have benefited from an
added comma.  I am not a grammarian, but I could remember rules
which justify his punctuation in each case except those I noted.
The rules are not followed as carefully as they once were, and I
enjoy seeing (what I think is) proper usage.

JBL

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing
Date: 11 Oct 85 22:20:41 GMT

trb@cbscc.UUCP (Tom Balent) writes:
>I am looking for an opinion (or review) of the five book series by
>Doris Lessing "Canopus in Argos: Archives".
>
>Has anyone out there read any or all of these books?  Are they
>worth the time (and money)?

I've read the first three (possibly the fourth, too; don't remember
too well).  Of the first three, the second is VERY different from
the other two, and of the three, is the one that most bears reading.
The first is a very strange book.  Anyone who is the least bit
familiar with the mythopoeic fiction knows what is going to happen
in the end.  Everything runs downhill until it is all fixed in the
last chapter.  What you get in the meantime is an extended
dissertation on the sins of man, culminating with a long-winded and
rather contrived (even within the character's point of view)
confrontation.  This resolves nothing; in fact, nothing resolves
anything.  I can't recommend this book, I'm afraid, although it's
somewhat hard to pin a reason down as to why.  The third book is
similar, talking about the same time frame in a different region
from a different point of view.  Both of these books present a
dualistic sort of competition for the earth which reads strikingly
like a way to reinvent the Judaic view of man, but without the
deity.

  The second book, as I said earlier, is quite different.  It's sort
of a Beren-and-Luthien Men-and-Fairies sort of sort, except that
there are neither men nor fairies.  The oppressive sense of "I am
telling an Important Story" is much muted, and the cosmic forces all
go away (after they set the ball in motion.  This book is perhaps
worth checking out of the library.

There are two things that the whole of this has going against it:

  Doris Lessing is basically a mainstream novelist.  Her "science
  fiction" is more mythopoeic fantasy; there's a strong kinship in
  that regard to the book _Out of the Silent Planet_.  If you didn't
  like that book, you will not like any of these books (well,
  *maybe* the second).

  The books are simply too self-important.  I continually through
  the first and third books had this feeling of the author having
  this vision of how she was going to change the world through these
  books, the dreaded "I am telling an Important Story" sense.  The
  fact is that both the themes and the form of their presentation
  aren't new.  The first book is in particular marred by this sense
  of mission, leading to a lot of contrived settings and conflicts.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 11:47 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: A Star Trek Rumor?

In the flier for the Creation Con in Palo Alto this month they are
saying that their guest, Roger C Carmel (aka Harry Mudd) may be in
ST IV.  Any other news from the Star Trek network?

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 Oct 85 12:12:08-PDT
From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Re: Amazing Stores/Hitchock Presents

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Amazing stories was quite good last week.  I
don't much blame the people who didn't like it though.  I too am so
jaded by MTV-like crap that when I start seeing something which even
resembles it I sometimes pay no attention.

THEATER OF THE ABSURD

That's exactly what this was.  Brad Bender wasn't just a popular
kid.  He was absurdly popular.  How many high school kids could turn
on their morning radios and hear their names shouted out wildly?
This kid's entire life could be summarized by a "thumbs up".
Pointing out minor plausibility flaws in this is like watching
Waiting For Godot and complaining "Hey, nobody talks like that!
I've never seen scenery like that."  Of course not; that's the whole
point.  I couldn't stop laughing during the locker scene.  (By the
way, I'm not much on cinematography, but I liked very much the long
shot of the lockers when the Bender kid wasn't even seen!)

"ALL RIGHT!! SO I'M MAGNETIC!!  SO WHAT!?!"  Talk about a nice bit
of dialogue.

Please, someone help me.  What was the name of the short story where
everyone must be equal (must conform to the lowest common
denominator).  Beautiful people must wear ugly masks, smart people
wear painful sound devices which break their trains of thought,
etc..  The super-human in that (wearing hundreds of pounds of metal
and head phones) THAT was Brad Bender.

As for Hitchcock Presents......sorry, no.  The problem is the entire
story was trashed for the sake of a "Gotcha" ending.  It's totally
ridiculous that no one would notice that the murdered policeman's
wife was taking care of the murderer.  How did she manage to be so
gentle, kind, and giving to that psychopathic maggot when she should
have been in terrible grief? Merrill Streep couldn't have pulled it
off.  Remember here she did it for FOUR DAYS.  Why did she have to
take him out of the hospital? (remember the "just pull my IV"
part?).  Why did she have to drug him?  Couldn't he just pretend to
be asleep?  Once she got him out of the hospital, why did she keep
carrying on with the charade?? (I'm talking about to the point of
having him in her house siting on her bed and STILL saying
"Everything's fine, you'll be safe here.")  Total nonsense.  The
writer should have decided whether he was writing a practical joke
or a serious piece of fiction.

And before people start flaming at me, YES, I can think of a few
hacks to make this (mostly) plausible.  First, how did she manage to
be his nurse?  You got me on that one (Suggestions anyone?) Second,
how was she so nice to him?  Well, you see, she too was more than a
little psychopathic.  The killing of her husband (ie the taking of
one of her possessions) quite properly set off a clang reaction to
get back in the best possible way at the culprit.  This of course
robs her of much needed audience sympathy, but it's the best I can
do.(anyone?)  As for leaving the hospital?  Why take chances?  Shoot
(or poison or whatever) him there and someone might just save him
(You'll only get one try, what with a cop right outside the door.)
It's best to have him alone.  As for the drugging that could
actually be quite interesting.  What did she give him?  Perhaps
along with the sedative something to make him die a slow convulsion
ridden horrible death?  Why bring him all the way to the house?
Several reasons.  Perhaps she actually has a plan to get away with
all of this (I admit it would have to be one HECK of a good plan).
Also, remember, he's going to die slow and hard. (The gun was either
an after thought or "plan B".)  Why continue to be nice to him?
Well, what fun is his dying if she can't watch?  As for finally
shooting him?  It was plain he wasn't about to stick around.
However, with that pistol she probably could have changed his mind
(shoot him in the foot to convince him).  But perhaps after he quite
randomly found out she was the victim's wife, she found it
(psychopaths being what they are) a proper time to "let him have
it".

Having said that, I'll also say -- NO, in writing I don't believe
(with a few exceptions (poetry being the most notable)) that one
should have to work that hard just for the story to make any sense.
I do believe good writing should set one thinking, but a different
kind of thinking.  It's the difference between "It would take a very
fine driver to explore all the possibilities of this race car." and
"It would take a very fine mechanic to make this piece of junk
start."

My thanks to the person who said that good comedy offends people. I
never thought about that before.  My first reaction was "No it
doesn't".  However, most good comedy I've seen which doesn't offend
people actually doesn't offend OTHER people.  Can you say self
deprecation?  I knew that you could.

I can't believe how much television I'm watching, (either I'm
becoming less of a snob, (not likely from the above) or SOME
television is getting a lot better).

Bob Sheleg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 08:55 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Dave Godwin/Writers-Instructors<SF-LOVERS Digest V10
Subject: #399>

    While I was at OSU (that's Oregon State U, Corvallis, OR), J.F.
Bone was a Professor of Vet Med there.  He also "taught" the Science
Fiction Honors Colloquia course.  The course met evenings at his
home.  He was good at getting the students to discuss pros and cons
from plots to writing styles.  He was never known to "plant"
disucssion material, but as long as I was in the class he never had
to...I had no qualms about stating something like "Keith Laumer's
Retief stories are really only 'space opera/westerns' in disguise!".
Bound to get a rise out of most of the male class members at that
time (late 1960s, early 1970s).
    I remember finding his reminiscences fascinating.  As for his
Vet Med expertise, I was not a pre-vet student so can't say anything
about that--he did spay my dog and she was healthy and happy.  (She
died, but for other reasons.)
                             Roz

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 85 11:17:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- Matter Transmission/Computer Duplication ---

Recently it has been brought up that a computer COULD be duplicated
with memory intact, because a computer memory is merely
electrons....

Presumably a computer of some sort is in charge of the matter
duplication process....having to 'remember' each particle of the
matter being duplicated.

Q: Could such a computer duplicate (transmit) itself?

Point to ponder: To record the memory of a computer, the machine
   must IN IT'S MEMORY have the position of each electron in itself.
   I believe that there are not enough electrons in a finite space
   to be able to store (as memory) the positions of each electron
   making up the memory.

                   Richard Hartman
                   max.hartman@ames-vmsb

P.S.: I may not have articulated this well, but I am sure some of
   you will see my point.

   Any answers for me?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 15:48 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Matter transmission, etc.

Let's not forget the Uncertainty Principle in the context of matter
recording/ duplication.  A simple way of stating this is the
following:
   "When dealing with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc.), the
more accurately the velocity of said particle is known, the less
accurately its position is known, and visa versa".

So, if you know the position of an electron to infinite precision,
you know nothing about its velocity.  This kind of screws up the
copying process.  I would hope that the copier was awfully precise.

I was just thinking about this...  What happens if you apply
uncertainty to an entire person.  Figure out the person's velocity
to infinite precision, and he vanishes and appears somewhere else
that is unknown.  Hows that for a nifty solution.  A random
teleporter.

    Brett Slocum
    (Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 85 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #404
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 404

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Brust & Busby & Hubbard &
                     Hughart & Phillips & Varley &
                     End of the World Stories (2 msgs) &
                     Feminist Stories,
             Miscellaneous - Typos & Canadian Writers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hou2h!mr@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.RINDSBERG)
Subject: Re: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov, in F&SF
Date: 11 Oct 85 14:43:41 GMT

>> EXCERPT FROM: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov
>> THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, 36th Anniversary
>> Issue - OCT '85 My beautiful, blond-haired, blue-eyed daughter,
>> Robyn, who is now on ...... much stuff .......  discovery of
>> yeast and enzymes.]
>
> Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great
> Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong
> place at the wrong

For one thing, people keep buying and enjoying his books.

> time? Or with his smug, egocentric male chauvinism toward his
> daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his wife, whom he refuses to
> name? How about some- thing more substantive - like why in the
> hell is this vignette included in a science history article about
> the discovery of yeast? What does his con- descension toward his
> beautiful daughter and his resultant foul aspersions on her
> parentage have anything whatsoever to do with anything that any
> human being besides an Asimov worshipper would want to know? I
> mean, "unmistakeable Asimovian features" my left hand of darkness!
> Does anyone you know talk about his daughters "Jacksonian
> features" or "Alberryesque features" or "Rospachian features"? How
> many people do you know who would refer to their daughters in
> print as "gorgeous women"? How many writers have you ever read
> that would say "she was asked to play the role, at sight, in her
> grammar school...", and totally forget that there is no such
> construct as "at sight" (it is correctly "at first sight")?
>
> More questions - how does even the demigod of science fiction, the
> master of prolix spew, get away without having this kind of
> ridiculous, embarrasing drivel of a father slobbering over the
> fact that he actually raised a daughter that ended up looking good
> and going into some sort of social worker program (that he
> not-so-subtly hints at being amusingly disapproving of) edited out
> of his otherwise good and informative article? Why does he think
> that anyone in his right mind or even his left mind would find
> what he has to say about his daughter, her adorable liberal
> tendencies and her Aryan makeup, in any way germane to his article
> about yeast, or even to the more global, meta- fictional point of
> essay-writing?
>
> I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in?  Davis Tucker

What Asimov trys to do when he writes these seemingly inane
paragraphs is to get the reader involved with himself and his
thinking on a personal basis thereby enabling the reader to be more
comfortable while reading the text of the actual tale to follow.

Usually he tries to lead up to how, and under what circumstances,
the text was written.

I happen to enjoy the bits and pieces of real life that he usually
places between stories in an anthology and read them just as avidly
as the stories themselves.
                                                Mark
                                                ..!hou2h!mr

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!gt3403b@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: JHEREG by Stephen Brust
Date: 12 Oct 85 20:34:44 GMT

Sorry, but I can't let people rag on one of my favorite books.

First, I have no sympathy for anyone who complains about the names &
number of characters in Jhereg.  For one thing, there simply aren't
that many characters, to say nothing of "main" characters (by that I
mean characters whose personalities you get to know).  Their names
are all pronouncable and a pronunciation guide is supplied for the
more difficult names.  (If you thing Jhereg was bad, try The Dragon
Waiting by John Ford.  A great book, but boy do you have to work.)

I count six main characters.  The main character, his partner, his
three Dragonlord friends, and his wife.  Even then, you don't get to
know them that well.  Jhereg is not a characterization book.  Jhereg
*is* a story book.

I also found it strange that the initial review referred to the main
character as a "private eye".  Perhaps the book should be re-read.
Vlad Taltos (the main character) is not a private eye.  He's an
organized crime boss and an assassin.

The story itself is the story of an assassination from the initial
contact, to the background work, setup, and execution (if you'll
pardon the pun).

Three things make this book notable as far as I'm concerned.

First, the incredibly consistent and believable world.  SKZB takes a
world of psionics, witchcraft and sorcery and makes it work so well
that it almost appears mundane.

Second, while the basic plot is simple, the episodes in the plot are
not.  There are a *lot* of interesting things going on and although
all of them are explained pretty clearly at some point or another,
the sheer deviousness of some of them had me shaking my head in
admiration.

Third, this is one of the few books I've read that gets the reader
to identify and sympathize with an assassin who's trying to kill
someone.  I think it's a great tribute to SKZB's ability as a writer
that he manages to do this without making the reader realize that
anything extrordinary has happened.

        Ray Chen
        gitpyr!chen

Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Oct 85 21:22 EDT
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: F.M. Busby
Cc: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>

>  My favorite non-FTL interstellar epic is the trilogy
>_Young_Rissa_, _Rissa_and_Tregare_, and _The_Long_View_ by F.M.
>Busby (does anyone know of anything else by this author?)  (Is this
>a pseudonym for Robert Heinlein?  Very similar style.)  (Actually,
>they do invent FTL near the end of the last book, but it is not
>important to the plot.)

          F.M. Busby is certainly not a pseudonym for R.A.H.  I've
met Busby, who lives in or near Seattle.  He's a neat guy who
apparently wears lobsters to SF cons.  As to his other work, he's
written a lot.  Unfortunately, my copies of it all aren't here,
they're at home, so this is from memory:

          First, there are the Rissa books, which have seen print
three ways: in one volume as Rissa K** (where K** represnts her last
name which I've forgotten), in two volumes as Rissa K** and The Long
View, and in three volumes as mentioned above.  Note that Rissa K**
has been the title of two books, one of which is contained in the
other.

          Next there are a bunch of books related to the Rissa K**
tri/bi/monology: two about the space pirate who Rissa marries (whose
name I've forgotten), one of which is called Star Rebel, I think.
These essentially tell about his early life before he shows up in
Rissa.  And a "sequel" (to Rissa) called The Alien Debt, wherein the
characters from Rissa meet guess who.  Also there is a book called
Zelda M'Tamba (or something like that) about the early life of the
character in Rissa with the same name.

          Finally, he has written another trilogy, now or soon to be
out in one volumn, about lobsters who try and surgically alter all
other life forms to look like them.  I don't remember the names.
There may also be other stuff.

          Anyway, certainly all of the stuff related to Rissa is
well worth reading, even if you aren't a STL fan.  Probably you
should start with the Rissa trilogy (thats how its being marketed
now) and move on to the others as your interest dictates.  (Don't
let KFL's comment about his style being like RAH's disuade you from
reading these if you don't like Heinlein's style.  I don't think
they're all that similar.)

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 18:28:52 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: "The Invaders Plan" by L.Ron Hubbard

It's out.  I've actually seen a copy in a B. Dalton's (or was it
Walden's?  --same thing).  It is 500+ pages, standard hardback size
book, but the typing is very large (about 12 point, I think) and the
interline spacing is generous, which compensates for the number of
pages.  I wasn't that interested in the book, so I didn't bother
looking at the price.  An interesting aside: one of the preliminary
pages (between the front cover and the start of the story) contains
a list of other things published by Hubbard.  The list is rather
long, and I assume this was inserted by the publisher to encourage
people to buy other books from them.  This would imply to me that
there ARE older Hubbard stories still being printed (since the only
other book he's written recently, to my knowledge, is "Battlefield
Earth").  Another one of these pages had a list of all the books'
names in the proposed dekalogy* (yes, it's even footnoted in the
book).  Pretty intense.

If I can find just-released Hubbard, why can't I find just-released
Varley?
                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

* 10 volume work

------------------------------

From: absolut!matt@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: The Princess of Birds
Date: 11 Oct 85 04:02:00 GMT

Brief review: Hughart's _Princess_of_Birds_ is a real winner.  It is
a tongue in cheek fantasy, set in China.  It's humour is broad in
places and fine in others.  The broad humor is tempered with a basic
respect for the characters: these are distinct people, although not
all exactly the sort you meet on the street every day.
    If you've tired of fantasies with badly concocted pseudo-Welsh
names, musclebound superknightly heroes, and a cast of ersatz
Nazghul and counterfeit Luke Skywalkers, here is an highly original
work.

Matt Leo
{ucbvax!cbosgd!ima!cfib, decvax!cca}!absolut!matt
Absolut Software            617-232-8377
2001 Beacon Street
Boston, MA  02146-4227

------------------------------

From: mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Query: Stories by Peter Phillips?
Date: 13 Oct 85 05:49:10 GMT

I have just finished a short story by Peter Phillips called "Manna"
and would like to find other stories or novels by him.  The intro to
the story mentions that he has written several stories, but doesn't
mention novels.  "Manna" is copyright 1949 and the anthology it is
in does not mention a source.

Does anyone know in which anthologies I could find other stories by
this author, and if he ever wrote any books?

PLEASE NOTE: This is to be considered a personal challenge to jmb.
Please do not answer to the net until he has posted his answer.  I
don't really want to cause another net flood.  (Mail is always
welcome, though.)

Thanks in advance.
                                                        -Dragon
UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 18:24:02 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: "Press Enter _" by John Varley

I have been trying for the past several days to locate a copy of
"Press Enter _" by John Varley.  Why can't I find this book?  No one
knows that it exists.  I know it's a recent release, which explains
why it isn't in the Books in Print.  But, I go to my friendly
"mallified" bookstore and they say "Haven't never heard of that
one".  At least they know who Varley is!  Is it still really that
new?  Is Houston slow?  Or is this going to be one of those books
that only independents carry because the distributors decided
amongst themselves that this book shouldn't sell?

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 15:52 CDT
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Man in the Rubble

> Galapagos.  Kurt Vonnegut.  Still in hardback.

Don't forget Cat's Cradle by same author.  A wry, witty
end-of-the-world yarn which introduces my favorite substance,
Ice-nine.

    Brett Slocum

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!btc@topaz.rutgers.edu (btc)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 10 Oct 85 16:52:00 GMT

I think you missed one of the best of the genre - Earth Abides -
(forgot the author)
                                Bob Clark
                                Hewlett-Packard PCD
                                Corvallis, OR
                        {ucbvax!hplabs, harpo, ogcvax}!hp-pcd!btc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 09:03 ???
From: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
Subject: feminist sf/fantasy

     I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.  Antifeminists
please note: I'm not going to argue with you people, so don't bother
to flame me.  You read your kind of literature and I'll read mine.

Mary Malmros
Center for Academic Computing
Smith College
Northampton, MA   01060
smithcollege.umass-ece$csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 16:48:25 PDT
From: lah@ucbmiro.Berkeley.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: My favourite typo

Not on a cover, but on the first page of Diana L. Paxson's
_Brisingamen_ (and not, so far as I know, fixed yet, though the book
is in its 2nd printing, I believe): "In Iceland men had voted to
accept the new faith [Xtianity] a generation ago, but here in
Sweden, Olaf Lap-king was following the example of his son-in-law
the King of Norway and enforcing conversation with fire and sword."

How is the weather?  Ve haf vays off making you talk!!  How about
those Giants?  Speak, you dogs!!

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Canadian SF Writers
Date: 10 Oct 85 13:21:02 GMT

Charles de Lint is indeed Canadian, making his home in the national
capital of Ottawa, although I tend to think of him as a fantasy
writer rather than a science fiction writer.  His first two novels
were HARP OF THE GREY ROSE and MOONHEART, both published as Ace
paperbacks.  A dynamite writer, however you classify him.

Another Canadian fantasist is S. M. (Steve) Stirling, author of
SNOWBROTHER from Signet.  I haven't read it yet, but de Lint gave it
a glowing book review in THE OTTAWA CITIZEN newspaper.

"Ashland, Kentucky" in the November ASIMOV's by Terry Green is also
a Canadian story, as is the piece by Andrew Weiner in the Winter
issue of NIGHT CRY (a digest-sized spin-off from THE TWILIGHT ZONE
magazine).

And, this year's Nebula and Hugo winner, William Gibson (for
NEUROMANCER) is from British Columbia on Canada's west coast.

RJS
c/o tom
University of Toronto

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Oct 85 0956-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #405
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Oct 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 405

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Campbell & Lessing &
                       Peake & Varley & Zelazny &
                       SF Poll & End of the World Stories &
                       Stories About Insects,
               Television - Amazing Stories & Blake's 7 &
                       Misfits of Science,
               Miscellaneous - Nimoy & Matter Transmission

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hou2h!mr@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.RINDSBERG)
Subject: Bearing an Hourglass.
Date: 14 Oct 85 16:18:32 GMT

The book "Bearing an Hourglass" by Piers Anthony has finally come
out in paperback and is on shelves at the major bookstores.

                                        Mark

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Setting the record straight about Campbell...
Date: 14 Oct 85 03:38:41 GMT

>(1) Campbell was not a tyrant.  In fact, he encouraged many kinds of
>    experimentation in Astounding.  This is attested by Heinlein
>    (Expanded Universe) Asimov (Opus 100, Before The Golden Age)
>    and many others.  There were a couple of problems with his
>    editorship: an unreasonable insistence on "human supremacy"...
>                   [ROBERT FIRTH]

I disagree. The record of "Astounding" does not bear your assertions
out.  It was "Galaxy" and "The Magazine Of Fantasy And Science
Fiction" that were on the cutting edge of experimentation. Campbell
was considered tyrranical by even his friends (same books you quote)
and had a general reputation for being so. If he encouraged
experimentation, it was not in the literary content, but in the
scientific content. His insistence on human supremacy and his
well-documented, deep involvment with Dianetics most certainly went
hand-in-glove with his strict editorial control, which drove away
most of the good science fiction writers of his day (Silverberg,
Sturgeon, Cordwainer Smith, Aldiss, and others). As to the testimony
of Heinlein and Asimov, neither of whom would know literary
experimentation if it came up and bit them on their homo superior,
it seems a tad facile to credit them with much critical acuity on
the subject of their mentor and paymaster.

Davis Tucker

------------------------------

From: druil!lat@topaz.rutgers.edu (TepperL)
Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing
Date: 14 Oct 85 22:26:20 GMT

I tried reading the first book of the series (Shikasta?) and put it
down after the 3rd or 4th chapter.  I especially disliked her idea
of identifying characters and places with numbers, not names: Planet
number 7, agent 23.

With numbers, it's harder to remember who's who and what's where.
We Earth-people have names for everything, even our numbers: pi,
planck's constant, avogadro's number.

I agree with Charley Wingate regarding the feeling of
self-importance about it all.

Larry Tepper   {ihnp4|allegra}!druil!lat        +1-303-538-1759

------------------------------

From: nrcvax!terry@topaz.rutgers.edu (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Re: Gormenghast
Date: 9 Oct 85 23:42:46 GMT

stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA says:
>Although I wimped out in the middle of the second volume, Peake's
>style was really inspiring.  The richness of the stuff made me
>pause.  I know i will come back and finish it off sometime soon.
>
>Rolling Stone's special on Sting mentioned that he has the movie
>rights to Gormenghast.  Gormenghast would make an excellent movie!

Gormenghast would make a *lousy* movie!  It would have to be about 2
weeks long just to get half the story line in.  Maybe you better go
back and read the rest of the trilogy before you decide whether or
not it would make a good movie.

As a set of books, it was okay, interesting, rather ponderous, but
imaginative.  As a movie it would be really out of place.

(Just my $.02 worth...)

Terry Grevstad
Network Research Corporation
ihnp4!nrcvax!terry
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry
ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry

------------------------------

From: ehl@Shasta.ARPA
Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley
Date: 13 Oct 85 18:23:30 GMT

"Press Enter _" is a short story, not a novel.  It was originally
published in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, May 1984.  You
may also find it in the latest TERRY CARR'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF
THE YEAR.

Elgin Lee
UUCP:  ..decvax!decwrl!glacier!navajo!ehl
old ARPA:  ehl@su-navajo.ARPA, ehl@su-score.ARPA
new ARPA:  ehl@su-navajo.stanford.edu, ehl@su-score.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1985 08:25:39-EDT (Monday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Amber

Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked Corwin's
pattern and then destroyed it.  First of all, to walk Corwin's
pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie his
descendant), in which category only Merlin falls.  Second, how could
he destroy Corwin's pattern?  That involves either convincing Corwin
to destroy himself in the center of it, or using Merlin's blood,
which we know wasn't done (unless he gave blood at college and the
blood bank was robbed...:-)

------------------------------

From: druxo!knf@topaz.rutgers.edu (FricklasK)
Subject: BEST SCI FI POLL< WITH EXAMPLES
Date: 11 Oct 85 16:59:42 GMT

I have gotten queries as to my categories for best SF, so I am
reposting With examples. (I got my numbering right this time, too.)

I would like to compile a list of the best SF and Fantasy novels, as
well as opinions for the best first SF novel to read.  If all you
sf-netters out there would reply to the following questions, I will
compile stats and post them to the net in about 3 weeks (that's
usually how long it takes for both message and reply to get
everywhere and get read by anyone interested.)

   1) Best "hard" SF novel?
      (EXAMPLE: Dune)

   2) Best "avant-garde"  or "new" SF novel?
      (EXAMPLE: The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem)

   3) Best "action" SF novel?
      (EXAMPLE: The Shape Changer by Keith Laumer)

   4) Best fantasy novel?
      (EXAMPLE: Lord of the Rings)

   5) Best First novel?
      (EXAMPLE: The Time Machine by H.G.Wells)

   6) Best of all the above? (or another, if it doesn't fit into any
      of those categories)
      (EXAMPLE: Book of the New Sun Trilogy by Gene Wolfe)

   Note: you can give more than 1 answer to any of the above
questions, but they'll get only 1/2 a vote each (for 2, 1/3 for 3,
etc.)
   Please give title, author's name, and if you know it, the year
and publisher.  If you can't remember the author or the exact title,
I'll try to guess, and will send you mail to confirm.

Thanks in advance,
Ken
...ihnp4!drutx!druxo!knf

------------------------------

From: cisden!Merlyn@topaz.rutgers.edu (Merlyn)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 11 Oct 85 19:14:28 GMT

More After-the Holocaust books:

Alas, Babylon by ???.  Pretty standard.

Hiero's Journey by Sterling Lanier.  It's been a while, but I think
I liked this one.  There is a recent sequel, but the original is
several years old and probably out of print.  Lots of strange
critters.

The Empire of the East by Fred Saberhagen.  Good book, but we're
starting to stretch the genre quite a bit here.

There's one I read a while back whose title and author both escape
me.  It's yellow with black lettering and small black sillhouette
animals an the cover.  It purports to be in a mutant-ridden society
where any civilized arts, including reading, are equivalent to
magic.  Unfortunately the fact that all the creatures use and
understand elaborate abbreviations for various groups and cults is
only one of the inconsistencies of this book.  Reads like the rule
book for TSR's atrocious game Gamma World.

These were just a few that I hadn't seen mentioned in any other
postings.
                                        Tommy Phillips
                                        trantor!phillips

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Oct 85 10:47 MST
From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Big Bugs - any pointers??

I am looking for stories or possibly essay-type discussions about
giant insects.  Not interested in stories which have giant insects
without explanation.  I would like to see a good rationalization
behind their existence.  Can a combination of gravity, atmospheric
pressure, different organ structure,etc.  allow insects which are
close to human size?  There are lots of stories with human-size
intelligent insects, but I cannot think of any with good biology and
physics behind them.  Discussion welcome!

               rusty

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories 10/5
Date: 11 Oct 85 15:38:35 GMT

>Ah, but this second episode of Amazing Stories deserves more
>comment in passing.  Such subtle, delicately nuanced
>characterization, not unlike Steve Martin playing Hamlet.  The
>striving for consistent moral outlook, full of the cogent meanings
>and latent ambiguities but rarely found in authentic replicas of
>fortune cookies.  Motivations of individuals and relationships
>between these individuals and events woven into a tapestry
>(travesty?) of cause and effect not seen since Heisenberg first
>dreamed of an electron farting.  And finally, the science; even I,
>who am inclined to let minor points go by for the sake of dramatic
>or literary license was dumber-struck at the sheer elan with which
>Spielberg extended his range of scientific facts and plausibilities
>to new, if not outer, limits.
>      -- Jim Brunet

I did not watch all of the episode in question, since I was cooking
dinner at the time.  However, I did catch the end.  The reason I saw
the end was that I was intrigued by the howling and laughter coming
from the family room where the rest of the family was gathered
around it.  So I went in.  My husband's father, who hates sf and
doesn't laugh that much, was practically rolling on the floor.  My
husband, who loves sf, and who ordinarily demands strict accordance
with scientific fact, or at least coherent logical format from his
sf, was doing likewise.  My daughter, 12, could not speak--she just
pointed to the screen gestured for me to join them.

In most sf, I agree with you, things like characterization,
scientific accuracy, and so on, are important.  But this was a
FARCE.  Different rules apply.  The important thing was that
everyone in front of that set had FUN.  I think the thing
worked--along the lines of "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers."

Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17
Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
AT&T Information Systems
11900 North Pecos
Westminster, Co. 80234
(303)538-3829

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 85 12:16:00 PST
From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
Subject: --- BLAKE'S 7 ---

  This is a good SF series from Terry Nation and the BBC, being
broadcast on my local PBS station.  Has anyone else seen it?  Does
anyone have any discussion on this show?
  It is decidedly BBC, which means that special effects aren't up to
what the American audience is used to, but the story so far (2
episodes) has been excellent in my own opinion.

         Richard Hartman
         max.hartman@ames-vmsb

------------------------------

From: leadsv!sas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart)
Subject: Re: SF on TV
Date: 11 Oct 85 15:45:45 GMT

pugh@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
> As for the Misfits of Science all I can say is that I liked Flag
> and Ferretface together as the bad guys, but the show lacked a
> sense of reality.  It was all too hokey to even suspend disbelief.
> Perhaps it needs the Batman/A Team outlook, i.e. complete camp.
> We'll see, but if it is going to compete with the Twilight Zone,
> it will need some strong scripts and not the old formulae.
>
> Jon

Actually the Misfits of Science is going be on Friday's at 9:00.  So
they will be competing with Dallas on CBS and Different Strokes and
Benson on ABC (This is according to the fall preview issue of TV
Guide.) I guess NBC is trying to fill their time slot with a show
that isn't trying to compete with Dallas for the same audience, but
going for the younger audience that may watch Different Strokes.
Since NBC cancelled Different Strokes, maybe they feel that it
won't give them any competition. The head of NBC is excited about
Misfits.  But all that aside, the show would be a lot better if they
put more camp into it. And they are definitely going to have to
balance the team out better. The Shrinker and the Freezer have very
little effectiveness in life or death situations and only showed
their powers at a crucial time, while Johny B, the Electro-Blaster,
and the Telekinitic Teen were throwing there powers around all the
time. So far they're the only ones who used real teamwork.  I hope
the rest will soon form a real team.
                                                Scott A. Stewart
                                                LMSC - Sunnyvale

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Oct 85 08:31 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Leonnard Nimoy at Creation Con

In his speach at the Creation Con in LA this weekend, Mr. Nimoy did
not provide any concrete details on the plot of STIV except that the
story would begin where STIII left off, thus completing the "Wrath
of Khan" trilogy and leaving the slate clean for future stories.  He
said that filming would begin in February for a December '86 release
date, and the the first draft of the script (by two writers whose
names I can't recall) was presently being rewritten by Nicholos
Meyer and Harve Bennett. (The best news I've heard so far.)

However, his answers to questions ranged from "that's certainly
possible"s that sounded like "Yes"s to "that could be"s that sounded
like "No"s.

In my opinion (which does not reflect in any way official
information or the Star Trek Welcommittee's views) Nimoy indicated
that: 1) the story involved time travel, 2) Sarek and Amanda would
be back, 3) while the Bird of Prey would be involved, the Enterprise
would come back, 4) Kirstie Alley would not return as Saavik.

No one, in either question and answer session, asked him if Eddie
Murphy would be in the film!

Lisa

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc.
Date: 12 Oct 85 13:22:23 GMT

Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>Let's not forget the Uncertainty Principle in the context of matter
>recording/ duplication.  A simple way of stating this is the
>following:
>   "When dealing with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc.), the
>more accurately the velocity of said particle is known, the less
>accurately its position is known, and visa versa".
>
>So, if you know the position of an electron to infinite precision,
>you know nothing about its velocity.  This kind of screws up the
>copying process.  I would hope that the copier was awfully precise.

Well, actually, since the person himself constitutes an observing
system, it's only necessary to be as precise in observation as the
human body is of itself.  My guess is that this is going to be (by
most standards) quite sloppy, especially as the need for real
precision is going to be concentrated in relatively small volume.
The atom-by-atom structure of bone, for instance, is likely to be of
little importance compared to its gross structure.  There are lots
of fluid areas where we surely do not care where the water molecules
are (as long as we have them at the right temperature-- a VERY low
precision measure of energy).  So from that point of view, my
estimate is that the problem is not that difficult.  The chief
problem is simply acquiring the information without destroying it
too soon, and then finding a place to put it all.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Oct 85 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #406
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 406

Today's Topics:

                Books - Campbell & Clarke & Lanier &
                        Vonnegut (3 msgs) &
                        Feminist Authors (4 msgs) & 
                        End of the World Stories &
                        Time Travel Stories,
                Films - Star Trek,
                Television - Hitchcock Presents

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hound!rfg@topaz.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES)
Subject: Re: Setting the record wrong  about Campbell...
Date: 15 Oct 85 03:26:55 GMT

A cat can look at a king.
Its a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion,
no mater how wrong headed.
However, nothing midgets can say will alter the real stature of
JWC, who, more than any other single person, made science fiction
what it is today - one of themore popular topics on the net.

Sorry to butt into your private harangue, but I hate to see people
deluded and mislead (unless I do it my self, I guess). Anyhow, I
feel fortunate to have started when I did (circa '45) and only wish
I had started earlier.  But you see, I never might have started at
all if I hadn't gone to boy scout camp and burned the book of the
kid reading pulp trash - then carefully fished it out of the coals
and, like, wow! Not that he was reading the big A, but I quickly
located that as soon as I got back to civilization and raided the
drug store for this new found literature.  Did you ever read Amazing
Stories? The Shaver Mysteries? Read some somewhere. That was SF
before JWC.

Dick Grantges  hound!rfg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 20:58:38 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Computer self-duplication
To: nep.pgelhausen@AMES-VMSB.ARPA

>From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
>Point to ponder: To record the memory of a computer, the machine
>must IN IT'S MEMORY have the position of each electron in itself.
>I believe that there are not enough electrons in a finite space to
>be able to store (as memory) the positions of each electron making
>up the memory.

  This may be necessary to duplicate a person (assuming it is
possible to at all) but to duplicate a computer all you need to do
is construct identical or equivalent logic elements (which need not
be atom for atom identical) and make sure each memory location
contains the same bit as the original had there.
  This is best developed in Arthur C. Clarke's
_The_City_and_the_Stars_, in which a city and its controlling
computer and a starship are preserved unchanged for over a billion
(thousand million) years by the computer constantly checking
everything, including its own memory, against its redundant memory.
Something can decay only if several copies of a given bit in the
computer's memory simultaneously change, which is very unlikely even
over eons.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 15 Oct 85 12:27:23 GMT

>Hiero's Journey by Sterling Lanier.  It's been a while, but I think
>I liked this one.  There is a recent sequel, but the original is
>several years old and probably out of print.  Lots of strange
>critters.
>                                       Tommy Phillips
>                                       trantor!phillips

Hiero's Journey is still in print.  Apparently, there was a recent
print run to coincide with the paperback release of the sequel, The
Unforsaken Heiro.
                                Scott J. Berry
                                ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 15 Oct 85 15:48:30 EDT
From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ cmu-psy-a
Subject: Story reference/amazing stories

Harrison Bergeron, by Kurt Vonnegut, presents a world where all
people are equal.  Equality is the lowest common denominator.
Announcers have speech impediments, athletes are crippled, and so
on.  Anyone gifted in an area is "handicapped."  Beautiful people
wear ugly masks, strong people have weights tied on to them, etc.
Harrison Bergeron carries the handicaps of three people, and is
still not quite "equal."

It's the sort of short story that high school english teachers like
to use.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 13:15 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Vonnegut

That story where everyone must be equal, so they dropped everyone to
the worst case was Welcome to the Monkey House by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

I saw a show on PBS years { & years } ago that had all this as seen
by a time traveling space fellow.  I think he was bopping from story
to story, but, as I said, it was a long time ago.  Anyone else
remember this show/movie?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 16:59:50 MDT
From: e-smith@utah-cs.arpa (Eric L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Amazing(ly Stupid) Stories

I believe the story about forced equality was "Harrison Bergeron"
(sp?) by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. (sp?), in which the protagonist (after
whom the story is named) is forced to wear heavy weights to
compensate for his strength and good looks, and wear headphones
which receive a government broadcast of loud noises to distract him
in order to compensate for his intelligence.  Also in the story,
people with speech impediments were T.V. announcers, etc.  All of
these handicaps were, of course, administered by the "Handicapper
General".

I think the story was in the collection, "Welcome to the Monkey
House".

------------------------------

From: utastro!ethan@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 13 Oct 85 20:28:46 GMT

>      I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
> and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
> sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.  Mary Malmros

You may already have these, but Ursula Leguin and Joanna Russ are
the first names to come to mind.  The former is probably my favorite
author.  The latter is pretty good.  One other book is "Native
Tongue" by Suzette Elgin.

Ethan Vishniac
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texas

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1985  19:01 EDT (Tue)
From: "Leonard N. Foner" <FONER%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Feminist authors

If you're interested in this sort of thing, take a look at _How to
Suppress Women's Writing_, by Joanna Russ.  [Citation at end.]

It's a very angry book.  It'll probably make you angry to read it,
too; it sure did for me.  Russ writes SF and "mundane" fiction and
essays, and teaches English and Literature at the college level.  In
this book, she details the tactics, sometimes accidental, sometimes
deliberate, that have been used to cover up, belittle,
miscategorize, and otherwise lose the contribution of half of the
human race's literary output for the last few hundred years.

I highly recommend it.  It is extensively footnoted, with a good
bibliography, and hence will give you many other jumping-off points
in thinking about feminism and writing in general.  Russ talks about
SF only incidentally, since (at least in recent years) that
particular field has been more receptive to female writers---at
least a little.  (One reason for this may be that people don't often
teach courses about literary "classics" that includes anything from
modern SF.)  Her main points span just about every literary
category, rather than being limited to SF.

The cover to the book is what grabbed me initially, with a "buy this
book" sort of reaction.  It's got lots of writing in red on the
front, with little black letters interspersed, in parentheses, and
runs:

"She didn't write it.  (But if it's clear she did the deed...)

She wrote it, but she shouldn't have.  (It's political, sexual,
masculine, feminist).

She wrote it, but look what she wrote about.  (The bedroom, the
kitchen, her family.  Other women!)

She wrote it, but she wrote only one of it.  ("_Jane Eyre_.  Poor
dear, that's all she ever...")

She wrote it, but she isn't really an artist, and it isn't really
art.  (It's a thriller, a romance, a children's book.  It's sci fi!)

She wrote it, but she had help.  (Robert Browning.  Branwell Bronte.
Her own "masculine side.")

She wrote it, but she's an anomaly.  (Woolf.  With Leonard's
help...)

She wrote it, BUT...

        How to Suppress Women's Writing
                by Joanna Russ"

Again, highly recommended, if you like angry, scholarly looks at
writing and women.

Citation: University of Texas Press, PO Box 7819, Austin, TX 78712,
1983, ISBN 0-292-72445-4 (-6 for the hardback), LibCong PN471.R87.

                                                <LNF>

------------------------------

Date: Tue 15 Oct 85 16:40:23-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Feminist sf/fantasy
To: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA

Well, there are a number of authors who write sf/fantasy in a
feminist vein.  Surprisingly (:-) most of them seem to be women.
(Also surprisingly, more seems to be fantasy than sf, but that's
another flame topic).

The canonical authors are Joanna Russ, Pamela Sergeant, and Vonda
McIntyre.  Sergeant also edited (at least) two anthologies entitled
Women_of_Wonder and More_Women_of_Wonder which showcase sf/fant
stories by female authors (most with a feminist bent (I think...it's
been a while since I read them, but the one's that stick in my mind
are)).

From male authors, I can't think of anyone who is *consistently*
feminist (although few (that I read) are *consistently* sexist).
Palmer's _Emergence_, Panshin's Rite_of_Passage, Heinlein's _Friday_
(?), and much of Varley's work contain strong female protagonists
presented in a largely favorable light.

Evan Kirshenbaum
evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA
{ucbvax|decvax}!decwrl!glacier!evan

------------------------------

Date: Tue 15 Oct 85 20:14:38-EDT
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: feminist SF

On the subject of feminist SF

After two false starts, I've decided that I'm not competent to offer
advice about this matter.  Hence, let me suggest that a possible
starting point might be

        Bradley: Sword & Sorceress I, II, &c

a series of collections of "heroic fantasy" stories.  These are
fairly diverse, and give some introduction to many respected authors
in this vein.

On a slightly different tack, here are some works that make one
think deeply about sexuality and its necessary (or unnecessary)
consequences

        Sturgeon: Venus Plus X
        Wyndham:  Consider Her Ways
        LeGuin:   The Left Hand of Darkness

Finally, may I recommend the best feminist work of fiction in my
library (even though it isn't SF)

        Wells: Ann Veronica

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: dcdwest!benson@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Benson)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF
Date: 14 Oct 85 22:14:27 GMT

Earth Abides by George Stewart is a great man-in-the-rubble story.
The catastrophe is non-nuclear.  The post-catastrophe re-building is
insightful and interesting.

Peter Benson                    ITT Defense Communications Division
(619)578-3080                   10060 Carroll Canyon Road
decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!benson    San Diego, CA 92131
ucbvax!sdcsvax!dcdwest!benson

------------------------------

Subject: Time tripping
Date: 15 Oct 85 18:08:58 PDT (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@uci-icse.ARPA>

        One of my favorite time travel type books is Thrice Upon a
Time, by James Hogan.  There is no actual movement of people or
objects in this story, just data transmission.  The science is
solid, reminding me rather of Clarke, and the story itself is quite
well done.  I really can't tell much about the book without a
spoiler.
        My other favorite time travel story is The Technicolor Time
Machine, by Harry Harrison (of Stainless Steel Rat fame).  In this
bizarre epic, a movie company ( Stupendpous Pictures ?? ) uses a
newly devised time machine to go back to the age of the Vikings to
film ( effectively over night ) a masterwork that will hopefully
save the company.  Really funny stuff.  Several occasions of people
running into themselves at the same point in time.  I remember a
scene where the location producer gets annoyed at another version of
himself, and runs off yelling "I thinks I can do that to me, do I ?!
Hah, I'll show me !!"

                Dave

------------------------------

Cc: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@lll-mfe.ARPA
Subject: Re: A Star Trek Rumor?
Date: 15 Oct 85 13:29:10 PDT (Tue)
From: Jim Hester <hester@UCI-ICSE.ARPA>

At the Con in Los Angeles (Universal City) on Oct 13, the only
comments by Leonard Nimoy were that the next movie would be the end
of a trilogy beginning with STII, and thus it would take up with the
characters on Vulcan with a Klingon ship.  The multiple Star Fleet
charges against Kirk & Co will be dealt with.

Leonard said that, as STIII evidenced, they are trying to return to
the old spirit of Star Trek, with some humor.  He did not say the
Enterprise would return, but his remarks on the subject (I can't
remember quotes) were VERY positive.  Madgel (sp?)
Barret-Roddenberry remarked on the unlikiness of the Enterprise crew
touring the Universe in one of the new "pregnant guppies."

Nimoy remarked that he would like to see a return of Harry Mudd
(James Doohan has also said this in the past).  He also mentioned
Tribbles and something else as possible future subjects.  A rumor
among the fans was that STIV involves time travel, but Nimoy only
commented that "that might be interesting."  In general, all the
questions about the next movie can be summed up as follows:

Q: Will X happen in STIV?
A: That would be interesting.

Q: Will X be appearing in STIV?
A: That would be nice.

Q: Will STIV deal with the issue of X?
A: That's an issue we may have to give some thought to.

The major thrust of Nimoy's talk was the fact that he does not now,
or ever did, want to be disassociated with Spock.  The rumors that
he required (in his contract for STII) that Spock die are completely
false.  In fact, it was not even his idea; someone called him up one
day and asked "How would you like a fantastic death scene?"  The
rumor about the contract was so strong that the producer of
Paramount Studios believed it and at one point, without even
checking the contract (located in the very building he was in),
dismissed Nimoy as the director of STIII on the grounds that anyone
who wanted his character killed could not be strongly enough in love
with Star Trek to do an acceptable job directing.  The book "I am
not Spock" is titled thus only because they wanted a short, catchy
title with the word "Spock" in it, and that title was the title of
one of the chapters in the book.  (That chapter, also, did not
disown Spock.  I forget the exact meaning of the title.)

Nimoy is one hell of a speaker.  If you get the chance, DON'T MISS
HIM!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 20:50:22 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Hitchock Presents
To: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA

>From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
>Once she got him out of the hospital, why did she keep carrying on
>with the charade?? (I'm talking about to the point of having him in
>her house siting on her bed and STILL saying "Everything's fine,
>you'll be safe here.")

  The impression I had is that she was not convinced that he was
really guilty until he started acting really rude near the end.
  After all, he would have been punished far more had she left him
in the hospital. He probably would have gotten the death penalty,
and the really nasty thing about the death penalty is the months of
anticipation.  Even life imprisonment would have been crueler than
shooting him.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Oct 85 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #407
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 407

Today's Topics:

          Books - McKinley & Phillips & Feminist Authors &
                  Time Travel Stories & Doc Savage,
          Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Re: Books by Robin McKinley
Date: 14 Oct 85 14:00:32 GMT

I agree with you about HERO AND THE CROWN and THE BLUE SWORD, but
your failure to mention BEAUTY can only mean you haven't read it.
Please do.  It is an astounding work.

skzb

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Query: Stories by Peter Phillips?
Date: 15 Oct 85 12:46:38 GMT

> From: cad.cs.cmu.edu!mjc
> I have just finished a short story by Peter Phillips called
> "Manna" and would like to find other stories or novels by him.
> [...]  Does anyone know in which anthologies I could find other
> stories by this author, and if he ever wrote any books?
>
> PLEASE NOTE: This is to be considered a personal challenge to jmb.
> Please do not answer to the net until he has posted his answer.  I
> don't really want to cause another net flood.  (Mail is always
> welcome, though.)

I certainly can't turn down a personal challenge, but be advised
that if I'm caught in a work break like I was the other month, you
may well wait for a month or more for your answer.

Anyways, on to Peter Phillips. He was a British newspaperman and
author, with only short stories (at least in the sf field) to his
fiction credit. I've been able to scare up info on 20 stories.
Format is:

"<Story title>"                 <Original magazine appearance>
        <ANTHOLOGY APPEARANCE>  (editor's name)

"At No Extra Cost"              Marvel Science Stories  (8/51)
        THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION STORIES: 1952
            (ed. Everett Bleiler & Ted Dikty)

"c/o Mr. Makepeace"          Fantasy & Science Fiction  (2/54)
        THE DARK SIDE  (ed. Damon Knight)
        OPERATION FUTURE  (ed. Groff Conklin)

"Counter Charm"            Slant [a British magazine?]  (Spr/51)
        FIFTY SHORT SCIENCE FICTION TALES
            (ed. Isaac Asimov & Groff Conklin)

"Criteria"                              Planet Stories  (5/52)
        [not anthologized]

"Dreams Are Sacred"         Astounding Science Fiction  (9/48)
        THE ASTOUNDING-ANALOG READER, VOLUME 2
            (ed. Harry Harrison & Brian Aldiss)
        IMAGINATION UNLIMITED  (ed. Bleiler & Dikty)
            [abridged in Britain as MEN OF SPACE AND TIME]
        SPECTRUM 3  (ed. Kingsley Amis & Robert Conquest)

"Field Study"                   Galaxy Science Fiction  (4/51)
        THE GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION  (ed. H.L. Gold)

"First Man in the Moon"      Fantasy & Science Fiction  (9/54)
                                       Science Fantasy  (5/56)
        [not anthologized]

"Lila"                               Startling Stories  (4/53)
        [not anthologized]

"Lost Memory"                   Galaxy Science Fiction  (5/52)
        THE COMING OF THE ROBOTS  (ed. Sam Moskowitz)
        CONTACT  (ed. Noel Keyes)
        THE GALAXY SCIENCE FICTION OMNIBUS  (ed. H.L. Gold)
        GATEWAY TO TOMORROW  (ed. John Carnell)
            [British publication only]
        SCIENCE FICTION TERROR TALES  (ed. Groff Conklin)
        THE SECOND GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Gold)
        THEMES IN SCIENCE FICTION  (ed. Leo P. Kelley)

"Manna"                     Astounding Science Fiction  (2/49)
        BIG BOOK OF SCIENCE FICTION  (ed. Conklin) [h/c only]
        A SCIENCE FICTION ARGOSY  (ed. Knight)

"Next Stop, the Moon"       New Worlds Science Fiction  (1/58)
        [not anthologized]

"P-Plus"                    Astounding Science Fiction  (8/49)
        [not anthologized]

"Plagairist"                New Worlds Science Fiction  (Sum/50)
        FUTURE TENSE  (ed. Kendall F. Crossen)

"She Who Laughs"                Galaxy Science Fiction  (4/52)
        ASSIGNMENT IN TOMORROW  (ed. Frederik Pohl)

"Sylvia"                               Fantasy Fiction  (6/53)
        [not anthologized]

"University"                    Galaxy Science Fiction  (4/53)
        THE SECOND GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Gold)

"Unknown Quantity"          New Worlds Science Fiction  (#5/49)
        THE BEST FROM NEW WORLDS SCIENCE FICTION
            (ed. John Carnell)  [British publication only]
        NO PLACE LIKE EARTH  (ed. Carnell) [British h/c only]

"Variety Quest"               Infinity Science Fiction  (6/56)
        [not anthologized]

"The Warning"                Fantasy & Science Fiction  (9/53)
        BEYOND THE BARRIERS OF SPACE AND TIME
            (ed. Judith Merril)

"Well I'll be Hexed"              Fantastic Adventures  (8/50)
        [not anthologized]


--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: decuac!avolio@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 15 Oct 85 16:55:51 GMT

I would think that most all of Marian Z. Bradley's books might fill
the bill, too.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 22:18:40 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Time travel
To: nep.pgelhausen@AMES-VMSB.ARPA

>From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA
>Has anyone any thoughts on these three distinctions?  Has anyone
>seen a story where all three are brought into play?  (Objective and
>Subjective time are dealt with frequently, but Meta time seems to
>be ignored (and rightly so...it would be a difficult concept....can
>you now imagine traveling in Meta time??? You could travel to
>(objective) 1800 by FIRST traveling back a month in Meta time, to
>"before" the barrier was put up...))

  Isaac Asimov's _End_of_Eternity_ deals with all three.  An
interesting twist is that meta-time seems to be circular.  This is
never made explicit in the story, but is the only way I could find
to understand it.  This story also involves a similar time barrier.
  Note that some concepts of time travel do not require this
concept.  For instance Heinlein's time travel (in _Door_Into_Summer,
_Time_Enough_For_Love_, and _Number_of_the_Beast_) always seems to
be in one timeline, i.e. whatever happened happened.  Time travel in
Star Trek seems to work the same way, as it does in H. G. Wells
_The_Time_Machine_.
  Also, there is the stack theory of time, as presented in James
Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_a_Time_, and in John Boyd's
_Last_Starship_From_Earth_.  In this theory, changing the past
simply obliterates whatever future comes from the past having not
been changed in that way at that time.
                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Bantam Doc Savage reprints
Date: 15 Oct 85 13:00:04 GMT

> From: umcp-cs!chris   (Chris Torek)
> Speaking of Doc Savage, anyone know what happened to the Bantam
> reprints?  `The All White Elf' and `The Running Skeleton' was due
> out in July as I recall....

There's good news and there's bad news...

The bad news is that Bantam decided to cancel the Doc Savage series.

The good news is that due to a deluge of letters, the series has
been un-cancelled. There apparently is a rather small, but very
loyal crowd of Doc fans out there, who complain rather vociferously
whenever Bantam tries to stop publishing the Doc's. However, they
may take a while as they are trying to work out a better package
(perhaps three-in-one).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 85 17:56 PDT
From: Kdavidadeleye.es@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re:Matter Transmission

It seems to me there are two fundamental approaches to matter
transmission. One involves sending a map of the target, the other
involves sending the territory of the target, i.e. the target
itself.  The distinction between the two is possibly critical when
the target is alive (i.e. organic in the sense of life as it is
loosely defined on Earth) and more so when the target is alive and
possessed of that attribute we call consciousness. Consider,

The MAP:

If you're going to send maps then the essential problem begins to
formulate itself in terms of accurate representations. The target
needs to be scanned to a level that is pattern-preserving of
structures, energies and elements that are 'descriptive' of even the
subtlest energies of the target. There are a ton of interesting
questions using a technology built from this approach. For instance
do you do a destructive or non-destructive scan ?  Once you have the
target scanned into buffer storage startling possibilities emerge.
Imagine buffer-storage as a form of static immortality (or long term
storage in case of incurable disease, unlivable conditions, or a
pocket-size way to move a colony ship at sub-light velocities across
interstellar distances, - the population of Manhattan in a device
the size of a refigerator, microwave oven or pack of cigarettes
(choose your storage technology). Imagine Dynamic Genetic
Programming: With a scanned target you can do a literal search of
ALL gene strings, edit out large-scale features like acne (digital
facial), scars, re-build fingerprints, make structures larger,
smaller etc. It could get interesting. You could make copies though
the fidelity of the isomorphs will instantly begin to depart from
that of the original as its experience stream will be different. All
experience shapes us, you and I would be different in large and
small ways if our experience flows had been markedly different.
Suppose you sent the map and were sophisticated enough to edit out
its memory on a selective basis, or introduce completely fabricated
memories. Life begins to get dangerous, which edition are you ? and
how do you know ?

The question that is always asked if 'posting' is done this way is
universal "Is it really me or a decimal-place copy ?" This is a
question that neither copy nor observer can decide once scanning
technology crosses a similarity threshold in terms of the precision
of representation. Consider the problem: If you're scanned
non-destructively then the topology of the issue is obvious. Barring
copies, there are two of you and the interesting question we can
only speculate about at this point is what's the status of 'your'
awareness ? Are there two separate consciousness's ?, one in two
location ?s, one in two locations that rapidly/slowly becomes two ?
Telepathy ?If the answer is that IMMEDIATELY (delta-t for
observation >>>0) there are two (albeit identical in composition and
behaviour) consciousness's then there are grounds for concern.
Simply put, a decimal-place copy ain't me, and if you did a
destructive scan to get it 'Ioriginal' am kaput despite the
subsequent experiences of my wife. friends and 'Iisomorph'.  More
simply put, I don't like being kaput, no matter how neatly matters
continue, or in slightly more formal terms , as Mayank Prakash
<AI.Mayank@MCC.ARPA> quotes it: >> :"'Having the same indentity
(identity?!)' is not an equivalence relation."...>just because it
looks like me, talks like me, smells like me, acts like me, and
thinks it is me doesn't make it me."  The needed experiment requires
'telepathic' monitoring of targets and 'copies' involved in
non-destructive scans. Consider, on the other hand, :

The TERRITORY:

This approach says simply, don't mess with the target. Move the
space-time the target occupies and you've moved the target. Neat,
Not simple, but No blackmail and NO DOUBTS. Physics (c. 1985) is
still slightly out of reach, though it appears the theoretical basis
for 'looking' this way is currently extant.

The technologies and disciplines required to build a scanning device
that would be operable on inanimate objects are here, albeit in
their infancies.  IF SDI survives and is successful in driving
optical computing into hard forms and practical devices we'll have a
grasp on the start of computing power required to not just design,
but build devices like this.

As long as 'post yer self for dinner at 7pm (Hong Kong time)' means
sending by map, I ain't budging. When I go to dinner 'I' really want
to get there. Though I can imagine companies competing (in, say,
long-haul transportation - ?Earth/Moon, ?Earth/Mars, Los
Angeles/Sidney?) saying: "Why leave her/him alone ?, Send a clone.
One hour delivery time guaranteed. Destruct guaranteed."  or "When
you absolutely gotta be there, go yourself.  One hour transit time.
Guaranteed arrival.  Insurance available."  A last comment on social
uses is obvious: scan target, edit buffer, activate serial number
iterate and insert sub-routines, call 'wear-and-tear' function
(cosmetic programming) , print n copies (Money, security keys, etc.)
The limiting factors will (as usual) arise from the same four
corners (process energy costs, implementation and payoff economics,
technical imagination and motivation)

My bet is, given the pulse and vectors of the state-of-the art that
posting 'maps' will be here slightly ahead of posting 'territory'.
The thing is, we already 'post' maps, albeit simple ones.

------------------------------

From: mit-eddie!jbs@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jeff Siegal)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc.
Date: 15 Oct 85 04:51:20 GMT

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes:
>>Let's not forget the Uncertainty Principle in the context of
>>matter recording/ duplication.  A simple way of stating this is
>>the following:
>>   "When dealing with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc.), the
>>more accurately the velocity of said particle is known, the less
>>accurately its position is known, and visa versa".
>>
>>So, if you know the position of an electron to infinite precision,
>>you know nothing about its velocity.  This kind of screws up the
>>copying process.  I would hope that the copier was awfully
>>precise.
>
>Well, actually, since the person himself constitutes an observing
>system, it's only necessary to be as percise in observation as the
>human body is of itself.  My guess is that this is going to be (by
>most standards) quite sloppy, especially as the need for real
>precision is going to be concentrated in relatively small volume.
>The atom-by-atom structure of bone, for instance, is likely to be
>of little importance compared to its gross structure.  There are
>lots of fluid areas where we surely do not care where the water
>molecules are (as long as we have them at the right temperature-- a
>VERY low precision measure of energy).  So from that point of view,
>my estimate is that the problem is not that difficult.  The chief
>problem is simply acquiring the information without destroying it
>too soon, and then finding a place to put it all.
>
>Charley Wingate

This is pure nonsense.  So what if the atom-by-atom structure of
bone is or is not reproduced.  In fact, you could still achieve
human matter transmission without sending bone at all.  It is the
thoughts and ideas, contained in the mind, which is important and
this is the part that CAN NOT be measured with sufficient accuracy.
Period.  No if's and's or but's (sorry for the cliche).  (sigh, let
me repeat myself) There is an absoulte, lower limit on the accuracy
with which one can measure both the position and momentium of any
particle (an electron).  Specifically, the uncertainty (product of
uncertainty of position and uncertainty of momentum) can be no less
than h (Planc's constant).  One can not hope to reproduce the state
of a human brain since doing so would require reproducing electric
impulses and energy states of atoms/molucules.  It is not enough to
know that "there are a few electrons flying around."  You must also
know where they are and where thay are going.

Jeff Siegal - MIT EECS

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 85 0943-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #408
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 408

Today's Topics:

               Books - Ellison & Hubbard & Zelazny &
                       End of the World Stories &
                       Feminist Authors (3 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Time Travel & Star Wars &
                       Typos & Matter Transmission (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:49 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: End of the World & Damnation Alley

He know's when you are sleeping, He know's when you're awake.
He know's when you've been bad or good,
So be good, for goodness sake.

And he's coming to your house.  Who does he work for? What's in that
red suit?  And what is that "magic dust" he uses to get those
reindeer to fly?  (For more on this, read Santa Claus versus SPIDER
in Ellison's The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World.
My favorite part is the footnote at the end.  Spiro who? |-)

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Oct 85 03:48:30 edt
From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix
Subject: Replies

> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 18:28:52 CDT
> From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
> Subject: "The Invaders Plan" by L.Ron Hubbard
>
> It's out.  I've actually seen a copy in a B. Dalton's (or was it
> Walden's?  --same thing).  It is 500+ pages, standard hardback
> size book, but the typing is very large (about 12 point, I think)
> and the interline spacing is generous, which compensates for the
> number of pages.  I wasn't that interested in the book, so I
> didn't bother looking at the price.  An interesting aside: one of
> the preliminary pages (between the front cover and the start of
> the story) contains a list of other things published by Hubbard.
> The list is rather long, and I assume this was inserted by the
> publisher to encourage people to buy other books from them.  This
> would imply to me that there ARE older Hubbard stories still being
> printed (since the only other book he's written recently, to my
> knowledge, is "Battlefield Earth").  Another one of these pages
> had a list of all the books' names in the proposed dekalogy* (yes,
> it's even footnoted in the book).  Pretty intense.
>
> If I can find just-released Hubbard, why can't I find
> just-released Varley?

Because John Varley doesn't have Bridge Publications spending
millions of dollars of the Scientologist's hard earned money :-) to
promote the book, get it stuck in every bookstore, and put double
page ads in every trade and national magazine from coast to coast.

Hubbard and Bridge Publications represent (in my opinion) an
insidious attempt to redefine SF and Fandom into Hubbard's own mold.
Their contests for new writers and soon-to-be published magazine are
brutal attacks on the currently weakened SF mainstream, and an
attempt to re-legitimize Hubbard as a founding father of SF. You
should boycott Hubbard and Bridge Publications for the same reason
you don't buy Dolphin skin coats, not because the coat isn't a good
product, but because the producers are committing an immoral act.

Obviously, this represents my opinion, and I'm sure there are lots
of people who disagree, most of whom have no connection with
Hubbard, BP, or the "Church" of Scientology. But consider what a
company must think of you if they believe they can buy your tastes?

P.S. Is there any truth to the rumor that the Scientologists wanted
to "buy" Hubbard a Hugo for Battlefield Earth by having every member
of the Church buy a supporting membership in ConStellation, but they
missed a deadline?

Libel suits to /dev/null...

                           James Turner
ARPA    ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
UUCP     {decvax,sri-unix,ima,linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn
MAIL     329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:49 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: End of the World & Damnation Alley

About Zelazny's Damnation Alley, the book was far fetched but
fun and the movie was god awful pathetic.  Jan Michael Vincent
fighting the poorly matted giant scorpions was a classic in terrible
movie making.  The best thing about the flick was the truck.  I got
to see it a few years ago while I was driving down Highway 101 in
Hollywood.  It was parked at a gas station right off the freeway.
It had been stripped down, but still had the fake rocket launcher on
top.  In case you have been watching too much tv recently, it has
been appearing with some road wimpier turkey in a transmission
commercial, or something like that.  I cringed and hit the mute
button every time it came on.  The greatest invention of all time,
by the way, is the remote control mute for tv's.  Now we need an
automatic one.  Have advertisers been buying up the patents and
preventing it's sale?  I wouldn't doubt it.  Probably is the
Illuminatus behind it all.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:49 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: End of the World & Damnation Alley

I mention again, the *best* collection of end of the whatever
stories is Catastrophes, edited by Isaac Asimov, Martin Greenberg
and Charles Waugh.  It has several categories, such as end of the
universe, end of the galaxy, end of the world, end of mankind, and
end of civilization.  All good stories by good writers.  A favorite
of mine was in the end of mankind (or was it civilization?) section.
It was called Dark Benediction and the book was worth it for this
story.  It reminded me of The Omega Man, where disease makes
everyone into creatures that *must* spread the disease by touching
you, and our hero is the last pure man.  Great stuff.

Jon

------------------------------

From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 14 Oct 85 20:43:51 GMT

> From: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
>      I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
> and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
> sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.  Antifeminists
> please note: I'm not going to argue with you people, so don't
> bother to flame me.  You read your kind of literature and I'll
> read mine.

I understand that Marion Zimmer Bradley has been into this topic,
but I've gotten the impression that she gets pretty soapboxy.  I
don't know if you're into tracts; I'm not.

Try Ursula K. Leguin; she may not be a feminist, but she is a
humanist.  I like her stories, especially her sf.  She's into
``social sf'' -- for example, my favorite, ``The Left Hand of
Darkness''.  This is a novel that really plays with your sense of
gender bias, set on a world where the natives are hermaphrodites
which may cycle (physically) to either masculine or feminine.  It's
a good, satisifying read.

Sorry to say, I can't think of many male sf author that don't have a
Boy Scout's view of either the opposite sex or any kind of sex.
However, I do think that Samuel R. Delaney has never written
``sexist chaff''.

Ray Lubinsky
University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science
uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Feminist authors
Date: 16 Oct 85 03:53:52 GMT

FONER%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA writes:
>If you're interested in this sort of thing, take a look at _How to
>Suppress Women's Writing_, by Joanna Russ.  [Citation at end.]
>
>It's a very angry book.  It'll probably make you angry to read it,
>too; it sure did for me.  Russ writes SF and "mundane" fiction and
>essays, and teaches English and Literature at the college level.
>In this book, she details the tactics, sometimes accidental,
>sometimes deliberate, that have been used to cover up, belittle,
>miscategorize, and otherwise lose the contribution of half of the
>human race's literary output for the last few hundred years.
>
>I highly recommend it.  It is extensively footnoted, with a good
>bibliography, and hence will give you many other jumping-off points
>in thinking about feminism and writing in general.  Russ talks
>about SF only incidentally, since (at least in recent years) that
>particular field has been more receptive to female writers---at
>least a little.  (One reason for this may be that people don't
>often teach courses about literary "classics" that includes
>anything from modern SF.)  Her main points span just about every
>literary category, rather than being limited to SF.

Another book on the same subject is _Silences_ by Tillie Olsen.
Olsen does not write SF, and she's not as agressively feminist as
Joanna Russ (for one thing, she does not write kill-the-men
stories).  Its tone is more sorrow than anger.

_Silences_ will probably be hard to find in a bookstore, but any
reasonably good library is likely to have it.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 15 Oct 85 09:13:14 GMT

smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes:
>     I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
>and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
>sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
>recommendations ...

I'd send you mail, but I can't use the path you give.

James Tiptree, Jr., is a woman & a hell of a good SF writer.  I'd
call her a feminist as well.  She's published several collections:
Ten Thousand Light Years From Home, Star Songs of an Old Primate,
Out of the Everywhere, Warm Worlds and Otherwise.  Also a fine
novel, Up the Walls of the World, which you might especially like:
one of the main characters is a black female programmer who becomes
quite a bit more than that.  She has a new novel out, which I
haven't seen yet, called Brightness Falls from the Air.

Judith Abrahms
{ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith

------------------------------

From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: small essay on time and it's aspects....
Date: 14 Oct 85 18:12:20 GMT

The referenced posting defined objective time, subjective time, and
meta-time.  I note that meta-time has been treated in several
stories, a notable one being "The End of Eternity" by Issac Asimov.

However, I find that the introduction of Meta-time is the tip of an
infinite-regress iceberg.  Meta-time is simply a "higher order"
objective time.  As mentioned, if one could travel through
meta-time, there "ought" to to be a meta-subjective time and a
meta-meta-time, and so on and on.

Nobody that I know of has treated this notion.  I personally think
that the old notion that "there are only three reasonable amounts of
things...  zero of them, one of them, or an infinite number of them"
has a lot of merit.  Therefore, I'd enjoy seeing a treatment of
(what I see as) an infinite heirarchy of "objective time-lines".

On the other hand, it seems much simpler and more convincing to
assume that there is only one objective time, and stories that
assume this seem more plausible to me for this reason.  Not that
many time-travel stories are very plausible... most suffer from even
simpler flaws.

Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.rutgers.edu (john)
Subject: Re: Further Evidence apon the accuraccy
Date: 14 Oct 85 17:31:00 GMT

>Augie: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople.  Only
>       Imperial stormtroopers are so precise.
>

Considering that sandpeople fight by jumping up and down waving a
weapon and smashing it into their opponents head, it doesn't take
much to be considered more precise. It probably meant that two
consecutive shots hit the same side of the sand crawler.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:35:15 PDT
From: Dave Suess <zeus@AEROSPACE.ARPA>
Subject: Typo in "Mote in God's Eye"

Kenn Barry wrote that the SF Book Club edition has the typo (which
Niven must regularly correct at signings): I have the regular Simon
& Schuster edition, and the typo is there, as well, the last
sentence of Chapter 50, on p. 465: the last word should be "spaced,"
not "spared."  (Niven corrected mine, as well, and initialed it
"LVCN" ?!)
        Dave Suess ... zeus@aerospace.arpa

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!samson@topaz.rutgers.edu (gregory samson)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. (uncertainty)
Date: 15 Oct 85 18:29:47 GMT

So it doesn't matter that the water molecules are all in the same
place, as long as they're water and they have the same average
kinetic energy?  Not quite... imagine what might happen if a couple
of very energetic water molecules happened to be transmitted through
right next to some of your DNA.  Mutagens, anyone?

G. T. Samson
The Evil MicroWizard
gts@wjh12.ARPA

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc.
Date: 16 Oct 85 03:45:27 GMT

[ The story thus far: Someone suggested that atom-by-atom copying of
humans was made very difficult by the uncertainty principle.  My
reply pointed out that the precision needed was drastically reduced
by the limits the human body faces when observing itself.  And now,
the reply. ]

jbs@mit-eddie.UUCP (Jeff Siegal) writes:
>This is pure nonsense.  So what if the atom-by-atom structure of
>bone is or is not reporduced.  In fact, you could still achieve
>human matter transmision without sending bone at all.  It is the
>thoughts and ideas, contained in the mind, which is important and
>this is the part that CAN NOT be measured with sufficient accuracy.
>Period.  No if's and's or but's (sorry for the cliche).  (sigh, let
>me repeat myself) There is an absoulte, lower limit on the accuracy
>with which one can measure both the position and momentium of any
>particle (an electron).  Specifically, the uncertainty (product of
>uncertainty of position and uncertainty of momentum) can be no less
>than h (Planc's constant).  One can not hope to reproduce the state
>of a human brain since doing so would require reporducing electric
>impulses and energy states of atoms/molucules.  It is not enough to
>know that "there are a few electrons flying around."  You must also
>know where they are and where thay are going.

Well, much of this is supposition.  What constitutes the essential
state of the human brain is essentially unknown.  It may in fact be
true that it depends entirely upon the presence or absence of
various chemicals in various places, and that the momentum is
unimportant except as far as getting the temperature right is
concerned (and as I said before, temperature is about as imprecise
as one can measure molecular velocity).  The only upper limit in
precision of either velocity or position is what the human body can
observe.  If it can't tell the difference, then for all intents and
purposes there is none.

It may in fact be impossible to achieve that level of precision.
But I don't see any reason for presupposing that we cannot.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. (uncertainty)
Date: 16 Oct 85 03:48:41 GMT

gts@wjh12.ARPA writes:
>So it doesn't matter that the water molecules are all in the same
>place, as long as they're water and they have the same average
>kinetic energy?  Not quite... imagine what might happen if a couple
>of very energetic water molecules happened to be transmitted
>through right next to some of your DNA.  Mutagens, anyone?

We have that same problem now.  The qualifier is that statistically
the event is quite rare, so that water is not a serious mutagen.

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 85 1019-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #409
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 409

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asimov & Brin & Campbell &
                         Varley & Zelazny & 
                         Feminist Authors (3 msgs) &
                         Title Request,
                 Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs),
                 Miscellaneous - Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 1985 10:08:41-EDT
From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
Subject: RE:  Isaac Asimov's attitude toward women

Yes, Davis Tucker, Isaac Asimov does come off as being chauvinistic
toward women.  He declares himself to be a former chauvinist, now
reformed, but what this amounts to, as far as I can tell, is:

Women are so cute, and cuddly, and mysterious, and I just want to
kiss them all!....(and they're smart, too).

This is harmless, even charming, most ot the time.  However, there
are times when his constant emphasis on the adorableness of some
female is a grave injustice.  For example, his piece about Shawna
McCarthy in the Boskone XXII program book goes on and on about her
appearance and winning ways, and the mystery of why her hair
gradually stopped being red, and gives short shrift to her abilities
as an editor, for which, after all, she was being honored.  I
commented to a friend that I'd lost respect for Shawna for
permitting that gush to be printed about her, and my friend said,
"Maybe that's why she left the magazine."  I wonder...

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 85 13:04:15 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Uplift War
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA

     What is the latest on the Uplift War by David Brin.  The last
news I read was it would be out in April.  Is this still true?

     Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 08:31 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Setting the record straight about Campbell...

>From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
>>(1) Campbell was not a tyrant.  In fact, he encouraged many kinds of
>>    experimentation in Astounding.  This is attested by Heinlein
>>    (Expanded Universe) Asimov (Opus 100, Before The Golden Age)
>>    and many others.  There were a couple of problems with his
>>    editorship: an unreasonable insistence on "human supremacy"...
>>                   [ROBERT FIRTH]

>I disagree. The record of "Astounding" does not bear your
>assertions out.  It was "Galaxy" and "The Magazine Of Fantasy And
>Science Fiction" that were on the cutting edge of experimentation.
>Campbell was considered tyrranical by even his friends (same books
>you quote) and had a general reputation for being so. If he
>encouraged experimentation, it was not in the literary content, but
>in the scientific content. His insistence on human supremacy and
>his well-documented, deep involvment with Dianetics most certainly
>went hand-in-glove with his strict editorial control, which drove
>away most of the good science fiction writers of his day
>(Silverberg, Sturgeon, Cordwainer Smith, Aldiss, and others). As to
>the testimony of Heinlein and Asimov, neither of whom would know
>literary experimentation if it came up and bit them on their homo
>superior, it seems a tad facile to credit them with much critical
>acuity on the subject of their mentor and paymaster.
>
>    Davis Tucker

If you're going to abuse someone, at least do so for the right
reasons.  Asimov's description of his working relationship with
Campbell is exactly in line with everything you describe.  I refer
you to Asimov's autobiography, wherein he provides a large number of
examples of Campbell's pigheadedness and peculiar ideas.  Asimov
himself found these ideas, including or perhaps especially Dianetics
and Scientology, ridiculous in the extreme.

I guess you and the good doctor aren't so far apart after all.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Oct 85 18:44:00 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: "Press Enter _" by Varley

Whoops!  That's what I get for flying off the handle.  As many
people have pointed out to me, "Press Enter _" by Varley is a
novella and is not published separately.  It is published in at
least two different collections.  No wonder I couldn't find it.
Thanks to all who sent (and will send) me mail about this.  I didn't
really become interested in the story until I saw several positive
comments about it in SF-LOVERS.  By then, the fact that it was a
novella had already slipped by me.  I didn't read the review sent in
to this list (and still haven't for that matter), because it claimed
to completely give away the plot.  I should have read the first
paragraph, tho, because it clearly stated the story's length and
where it was available.

Boy do I feel stupid!

                        William LeFebvre
                        Department of Computer Science
                        Rice University
                        <phil@Rice.arpa>
                        or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 85 09:39:07 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Amber
From: Kurt <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

I am not sure about exactly who can walk a pattern.  Does it really
require the a genetic inheritance from the original creator, or is
the blood of the house of Chaos sufficient to walk a pattern?  The
latter seems more likely to me, but who knows?

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 85 13:15:17 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
To: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA

Here are my favorites:

* The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr.
For a man, Tiptree sure writes strong female characters well.  I
also enjoy the upbeat endings that his novels always have.

* Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton
Another male writer who espouses feminist views.  His female
characters are also very well written.

* A Spell For Chameleon, The Source Of Magic, Castle Roogna, etc.,
Piers Anthony
I've found Piers Anthony to be an author who, unlike many others,
has no problem at all with feminist doctrine.

* Titan, Wizard, Demon, John Varley
Again, strong female characters.  A friend of mine pointed out that,
"To Varley, a woman can only be a strong character if she is a
Lesbian."

Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in a
radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't had a
chance to read any of those books.

Enjoy!

Commodore Perry

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 15 Oct 85 15:53:18 GMT

>      I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
> and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
> sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.  Mary Malmros

You might check out a couple of collections of SF by women that came
out a few years back: "Women Of Wonder" and "More Women Of Wonder."
I'm not sure about the name of the second collection. Both were
available in paperback a few years ago.

                           Cheers, Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 16 Oct 85 18:17:32 GMT

> From: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA
>      I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
> and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
> sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.  Antifeminists
> please note: I'm not going to argue with you people, so don't
> bother to flame me.  You read your kind of literature and I'll
> read mine.

C. J. Cherryh has written some fine SF and fantasy that touches on
feminist topics.  Try the "Morgaine" trilogy -- Gate of Ivrel, Well
of Shiuan, Fires of Azeroth; the "Faded Sun" triliogy; also Pride of
Chanur.

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: microsoft!gordonl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gordon Letwin)
Subject: want norse gods book title
Date: 17 Oct 85 01:56:03 GMT

I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a
modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing
to death, I think.)  He's carried across the Bifrost where they're
getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost Giants.
He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb...

I thought it was a good read when I was 14, and I'd like to try it
again.

        thanks

        gordon letwin
        microsoft
        decvax!microsoft!gordonl
        uw-beaver!microsoft!gordonl

------------------------------

From: crash!victoro@sdcsvax.arpa
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 02:53:08 PDT
Subject: The Max Headroom Show

New Program: _The Max Headroom Show_
             Cinemax on Wendsday's @ 7:30 / 8:30 PM Central
Started October 16: Length :30

A Chrylsis Production
Executive Producer: Terry Ellis
Line Producer: Chris Griffin
Casting: The Hubbard Company
Music: Midge Ure & Chris Cross
Film Editor: Michael Bradsell
Production Designer: Maurice Cain
Director of Photography: Phil Meneux BBC
Screenplay: Steve Rodgers
Based on an Original Idea from: George Stone, Rocky Morton, and
  Annabel Jankel
Produced by: Peter Wagg
Directed By: Rock Morton, Annabel Jankel
Staring: Matt Frener and Nickolas Grace

MINI REVIEW: Despite a silly plot, I'm looking forward to this!
Really!

*** Show Premise *** Semi-Spoiler later ***

    Max Headroom is the title of a new science fiction series on
Cinemax.  It concerns itself with the investigation by Edison
Carter, television's highest rated news reporter, into a mysterious
explosion in an section of the outside.  Carter's program is a very
aggressive style of investigation.  In a world very much like
early-'Bladerunner', Edison uses helicopter drops into news sites
with live portable links and a desk bounded 'controller' using bugs,
computer cracking, and spy cameras to assist in the live
investigation program.
     And this business is very comperg)

    In re to posting damagin reviews: I kept the most damaging stuff
    out, but left iners to a high of 236 million per hour.

*** What Spoiler?  This is a recap of the first episode ***

   Edison's controller is told from 'VERY HIGH UP' that the story
must be pulled.  And in so doing he strands Edison 'outside' which
nearly gets him killed, but forces the director to find a new
controller and to convince Edison to drop the story.  He replaces
the controller with Theora Jones, the best from Network I.  With her
skills, Carter learns that the top execs are very upset that the
failure of the BlipVerts could cost the huge Zick Zack account.
They also discover that one of the chief officers of Channel 23 is
leaving (and being covered on another network) to sign a new
contract with Zick Zack.  Edison rushes over to confront the spied
upon exec, who speaks out off the record.
     The BiltVert project was created by the head of Reasearch and
Devlopment for Network 23, Lynch Brice, to compress 30 seconds of
advertisements into 3 seconds.  This reduction in wasted time gives
Network 23 the viewing edge that results in their high ratings.  The
system has one side effect.  Among the most sloth like, slovenly,
seditary individuals a chain reaction may be set off by the
BlitVertisments.  As explained by Brice, the human body is composed
of a number of static charges that are normally accumulated at the
nerve endings and are worked off through normal exertion.  Except in
the case of the most seditary.  In those cases, the BlitVerts set
the brain into firing off all the stored energy that results in a
great deal of heat and the victim then explodes.  (Which was the
case of the story he was following.)
     Edison Carter learns that a video tape in the R&D labs shows
the BlitVert effect very clearly.  (It should be noted that the
board of Network 23 is very upset about this effect and wants it
silenced at any cost, although Brace seems too eager to kill off
Carter.)  He uses his controller's skills to lead him past security
and through the corridors and into the lab.  There he finds the
tape, but is discovered by Brice who sends two henchmen to eliminate
Carter in their usual low-life 'outsider' manner.  Edison eludes the
thugs as his controller and Brice fight for control of the building
computer system, which controls the elevator system and defenses.
Edison is able to escape using one of the thug's cycle but is thrown
by Brice into a gate that is labled:
                MAX HEADROOM 2.3 FEET

     The episode ends with Edison Carter's life in total question.
But previews of next week's, show the possiblity of the Network
replacing Carter with one of Brice's computer simulations.

NOTE:  The music and computer graphics are arresting.  Verry Good.
Another Reason to Buy Video Tape...
Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro
                crash!victoro@nosc   or   crash!victoro@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 12:17:29 cdt
From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
Subject: New SF on Cable

Being used to seing only old movies on cable (Cinemax showed both
The Thing (original) and Brother From Another Planet last week), I
was *very* surprised by a 1/2-hour item from Britain, called "Max
Headroom."

Ignore the summary in your cable-tv guide, and *watch it*!  I won't
give the plot away (it looks like 'Max will run it again this
month), but I will say this:

The show starts with a long opening, part of which is the line "20
minutes in the future".  It sets the mood and scene very well.  The
story appears to be about a newsman who stumbles onto a hot story
that someone is trying to cover up.  He works for a fictional
network called Network 23, and he (like all newsmen of that time) is
guided by a `controller.'  The controller operates a computerized
console and sees through cameras in the area.  The newsman is guided
to the story by his controller.

One other thing: the computer animation is excellent, with realtime
animation of line-drawings (buildings, elevators, city maps,
helicopters) which really looks good.  The images on the
controller's screens zoom and pan quickly, which is good because the
story moves at an amazing pace, and slow sfx would really hurt.

No sex (yet), some small gore, some small profanity.

My wife commented that the `feel' of the society is much like that
of Blade Runner.

Alan Wexelblat
WEX@MCC.ARPA

------------------------------

From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: great typo in "Stainless Steel Rat is Born"
Date: 16 Oct 85 16:01:55 GMT

As long as we're talking about typos, I just started Harrison's new
book "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born" (Spectra, $2.95). There is a
REALLY cute typo in the first chapter (page 4, as a matter of fact)
that goes "Imagine if you can -- and you will need a fertile
imagination indeed -- a one-tonne angry boar hog with sharp tushes
and mean dispositions."

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be sat upon by that
animal..... You don't suppose they really meant tusks, do you???
*giggle*

Chuq Von Rospach
Currently: nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
{decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid}!nsc!chuqui
Soon to be:  ..!sun!<somethingorother>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Oct 85 0911-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #410
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Oct 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 410

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Campbell & Hughart & Varley &
                   Star Trek & End of the World Stories (3 msgs),
           Films - Star Trek,
           Television - Amazing Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Asimov
Date: 15 Oct 85 15:14:00 GMT

>> Asimov died years ago, but Doubleday is making so much money off
>> of his famed prolificity, that they hired a staff of writers to
>> continue to put out Asimov books.
>> Lisa
>
>Asimov is NOT dead. In fact he is (I think) up to about number 320.
>                                               Mark

Wait a minute, Mark.  Aside from the fact that Lisa's tongue is
planted firmly in her cheek, the issue of "death" being discussed is
of literary quality, not continued output.

Unlike Davis Tucker, I bear no ill will against Asimov, the person.
If I was his age, had a quad heart by-pass operation within the past
two years, and was staring my own mortality directly in the face
while being a sincere atheist, I would probably be indulging a few
foibles, too.  As to his humility, I dare not provoke the gods by
commenting -- my wife says that I can pontificate with the best of
them and I respect her opinion.

However, as regards Asimov, the writer, pain, Pain, PAIN.  I honor
him for what he has done, both in terms of individual works and for
his contributions to the field.  There *was* a time when Asimov was
one whose work was helping the field mature.  But you put your
finger on the problem when you answered Lisa literally by saying
he's up to number 320.  Yes, he's churning out paper with words on
it at an alarming rate -- but so does a line-printer gone mad.  I
can't recall an outstanding, or even good, work of his (in fiction)
since THE GODS THEMSELVES.  (The problem of going dry is not his
alone.  Take Bradbury, for instance.  Please.)

Asimov's fiction today is as painful to contemplate as watching a
great, over-the-hill ballplayer (like Willie Mays?) trying to hang
on.  Sad.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Setting the record straight about Ca
Date: 15 Oct 85 15:34:00 GMT

I must agree with Davis.  It is precisely because of Campbell's
rigidity that magazines like Galaxy and F&SF flourished so quickly
and so well.  This is the reason why I believe the ultimate impact
of Dianetics on SF was minimal in the direct sense -- it indirectly
created new literary "ecological" niches that SF could survive and
flourish in.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 17:10 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Bridge of Birds, by Barry Hughart

                Del Rey/Ballantine 32138 (May 1985)

I'd like to second-the-motion for Matt Leo's recent note in praise
of Barry Hughart's fantasy novel "Bridge of Birds" (Matt listed it
as "Princess of Birds"... different edition, or fumble by flying
fingers?  I'm not sure).  This is Hughart's first novel, and it goes
onto my very small stack of "first novels that blew my socks off"
immediately.  I bought it largely by chance, to fill an otherwise
empty afternoon; I rapidly realized that I'd purchased a real gem.

The story is subtitled "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was".
If this sounds a bit like Jessica Amanda Salmonson's stories of
Tomoe Gozen (please forgive any misspellings here - I don't have my
library handy)... well, yes and no.  The underlying concepts are
similar (an alternate version of an Oriental country of long ago, in
which magic and similar such things apply), but the feel of this
story is very different.  I stopped reading Salmonson's stories
after the first Tomoe Gozen novel, as I never felt really engaged in
what was happening; I fell into Bridge of Birds head-first, tore
through it in one afternoon, and wished for more.

Bridge of Birds is told from the point of view of Lu Yu (or "Number
Ten Ox" to just about everyone), a young man of a small village.
The children of his village are suddenly struck down by a strange
illness, and he must locate a Wise Man to determine the cure.  The
only Wise Man he can hire with the money available to him is Li Kao,
a somewhat fallen scholar with "a slight flaw in his character".  Li
Kao drinks rather too much wine, has little respect for authority,
and has a love and talent for a well-turned con that would warm the
heart of Slippery Jim diGriz (the Stainless Steel Rat).  Together,
they set out to locate (and steal) the Great Root of Power, which is
the only curative medicine powerful enough to overcome the malady
that has stricken the children.  It soon becomes apparent that their
quest is not simply what it seems... it is entwined with a deeper
and more ominous search reaching up to the very heart of Heaven.  A
truly marvelous cast of supporting characters appear (and reappear
unexpectedly) throughout the story, and the resolution is quite
satisfying.

This book has some of the most marvelous scenes and images that I've
encountered in the past few years; the sense of humor which pervades
the story never quits, and never gets in the way.  It will be quite
some time before I forget the picture of Miser Shen ploughing his
way through an immense pile of goat manure looking for gold coins...
or the discourse on the proper way to prepare porcupine in bean
paste (VERY carefully!)...  or the Falcon's granting of Doctor
Death's true wish... or, most especially, the flashing Sword Dance
done to free the spirits of Bright Star and the young captain that
she loved from the ghost dance that holds them in thrall.  I had
tears in my eyes more than once while reading the story, and I'll
buy Hughart's next novel the moment I see it.

I give this book my highest personal recommendation.  Special-order
it if your bookstore doesn't have it in stock (I got mine at
B.Dalton), borrow a friend's copy, withdraw it from your local
well-stocked library (does not apply in California) or whatever..
but DON'T miss it!

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley
Date: 17 Oct 85 04:14:00 GMT

"Press Enter" is a work of short fiction (about 80 pages), not a
novel. It first appeared in *Fantasy and Science Fiction* (I
believe) and was recently reprinted in Terry Carr's latest *Best
Science Fiction of the Year* anthology.

Dark Harvest recently announced a collection of short stories by
Varley, including "Press Enter" and "Blue Champagne," to be titled
*Blue Champagne* (cover art and interior illustrations by Todd
Hamilton). I don't remember when they expect to release it. You can
write to them for more information:

Dark Harvest
P.O. Box 48134
Niles, IL 60648
                                Wombat
                        ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 85 18:07:43 EDT
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Price of the Phoenix

>From: Keith Dale <kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa>
>One of the Star Trek novels, Price of the Phoenix by [two women
>authors whose names escape me], deals with the problem of identical
>copies of a person coexisting ("Will the real James Kirk please
>stand up.").  The story is done very well and shows (to me, at
>least) that the authors must have had discussions similar to that
>raging on the net lately.  It does get involved, even (gasp!) makes
>you think (:-), and should be a good way to gather more fuel for
>this debate.
>
>Also, I thought it was a good read, but then I like most everything
>that I read.  How about some criticisms?  Am I wrong to like it?
>(:-)
>                                                  Keith

     I sit here blithely replying, and find that I can only remember
one of the author's names: Jacqueline Lichtenberg, currently of
Sime/Gen fame. The other author wrote a Star Trek fact book in the
mid-70's I think, in which case it would be Joan Winston, but I
haven't been able to find these books in my library for a couple of
years; I think I loaned them to someone and forgot who. (as usual)
There is another book in the series, Fate of the Phoenix, but I cant
remember if it came first or second... I will have to find these
books! I was always under the impression that yet another book was
going to come out, but it never has. I guess Lichtenberg is too busy
with her Sime/Gen universe to write StarTrek anymore... pity.

     I liked it too, but then I am a rabid Trekkie (and proud of
it!), so my opinion is not necessarily worthwhile, and certainly not
objective!!!

Ready to Energize
/amqueue

ps: a good test to see if you are a confirmed trekkie: do you walk
into elevators and shout "Bridge" as the doors close?

Do you answer the telephone "Enterprise, Spock here"?

Can you recite all the lines of all the characters from the original
tag scene from "Trouble With Tribbles"?

Can you sing along with the opening music?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 12:03 PDT
From: "Morton Jim"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Man in the rubble

 I have not seen Warday listed in the discussion of "Man in the
rubble" stories.  While this book does not encompass the amount of
destruction that would be caused by either the U.S. or S.U.  using
half or more of their available nuclear weapons, the scenarios
described in the book are believable descriptions of the United
States after a small to medium small scale attack.

           *********< Slight  Spoiler  Warning >*********

    The book describes the observations and collected interviews
made by two journalists traveling across America five years after a
limited nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States.
    The attack mode of the Soviets included effective use of EMP
generated by pre-deployed thermonuclear weapons aboard communication
sattelites which were commanded out of their normal positions and
into positions most usefull for dropping their nuclear cargo. This
single phase of the attack was responsible for the fragmentation of
the United States into several regions of independent political
power.
    In addition to the EMP attack, a more conventional Nuclear
attack was effected for New York City, Washington D.C., San Antonio
Tx, and the Minuteman missile fields througout the midwest.  These
attacks caused significant loss of life, disease and hunger.
    Several ideas explored in the book include the Triage of people
with excessive lifetime exposure to radiation, with people turning
to alternative forms of medical treatment ( witches faith-healers
etc).  Also, the aid provided by foreign countries to the U.S. (and
S.U.)  and the way these countries were taking advantage of the
condition of the superpowers to further their own national goals.
The way that various states controlled immigration was also
explored.

    All in all I found the book enjoyable, and was exposed to
concepts I had not considered before.
            Jim Morton

------------------------------

From: scgvaxd!bob@topaz.rutgers.edu (Bob Guernsey)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF
Date: 16 Oct 85 18:48:07 GMT

Let's not forget Nevil Shutes book On the beach.  This was one of
the first classics of the after the destruction type.  It deals with
the situation as encountered by an American submarine on duty at the
start of the War.  Both the movie and the book are excellent.
                                        Bob...

------------------------------

From: styx!mcb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 10 Oct 85 06:10:08 GMT

In addition to those posted by sonja@genie here's a further list of
"post-apocalypse" novels. My criteria for inclusion here are as
follows:

1. "End-of-the-world". A catastrophe or major nuclear war that kills
   off a good percentage of the human race occurs towards the
   beginning of the book.

2. "Man-in-the-rubble". Events immediately after such a catastrophe
   or war.

3. "After-the-fall". Events many years or generations after such a
   catastrophe or war.

I'm purposely being formal about the criteria since there are
zillions of sf novels that contain, in some form, reference to
nuclear wars, plagues, natural catastrophes, etc.

This list is far from exhaustive, even combined with sonja@genie's.
It was more or less "off the top of my head," and I've probably
missed a fair number of obvious ones. Novelettes and short stories
are not included; there are too many even to begin.  If you come up
with some others, send 'em to me, and I'll compile a list and make
it available.

Anyway, here goes:

Aldiss, Brian. BAREFOOT IN THE HEAD.
Anthony, Piers. BATTLE CIRCLE [Sos the Rope, Var the Stick, Neq the
  Sword].
Ballard, J.G. THE CRYSTAL WORLD.
  THE DROUGHT.
  THE DROWNED WORLD.
  THE WIND FROM NOWHERE.
Christopher, John. NO BLADE OF GRASS.
Cowper, Richard. THE TWILIGHT OF BRIAREUS.
Delany, Samuel R. DHALGREN.
  THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION.
  THE JEWELS OF APTOR.
Dick, P.K. and Zelazny, Roger. DEUS IRAE.
Farren, Mick. THE TEXTS OF FESTIVAL.
Frank, Pat. ALAS, BABYLON.
Heinlein, Robert A. FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD.
Hoyle, Fred. THE BLACK CLOUD.
Ing, Dean. PULLING THROUGH.
  SYSTEMIC SHOCK.
Jones, D.F. DENVER IS MISSING.
Kurland, Michael. PLURIBUS.
Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry. LUCIFER'S HAMMER.
Pangborn, Edgar. THE COMPANY OF GLORY.
  DAVY.
  STILL I PERSIST IN WONDERING.
Powers, Tim. DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE.
Roshwald, Mordecai. LEVEL 7.
Shiel, M.P. THE PURPLE CLOUD.
Stewart, George R. EARTH ABIDES.
Thompson, Allyn. THE AZRIEL UPRISING.
Vinge, Vernor. THE PEACE WAR.
Wylie, Philip. TOMORROW!.
Zelazny, Roger. DAMNATION ALLEY

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 16 Oct 1985 10:07:25-PDT
From: vickrey%lite.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (DBA_Smith, GRAFIX_Smith,
From: FORTRAN_Clerk)
Subject: Re:  Harry Mudd in ST IV

At Star Con Denver last month, Roger Carmel was asked if he was
going to be in ST IV.  His answer was that he'd love to, but hadn't
been asked.

He also mentioned that at one time they were considering a Harry
Mudd spinoff series.  *sigh*

Susan

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Amazing Stories 10/5
Date: 15 Oct 85 15:27:00 GMT

>In most sf, I agree with you, things like characterization,
>scientific accuracy, and so on, are important.  But this was a
>FARCE.  Different rules apply.  The important thing was that
>everyone in front of that set had FUN.  I think the thing
>worked--along the lines of "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers."
>                                     Sue Brezden

Here, we get into the murky ground of artistic intent, of knowing
what was in the producer/director's mind.  I agree, it was a FARCE.
The question is, was it *meant* to be?  I don't think so, though I'm
willing to listen to arguments supporting that position.

My responses are clouded by the perception that for many people,
that's all SF is -- a farce.  It is this view of SF that gives
reasonable ammunition to SF's detractors.  I am particularly pained
because farce SF -- whether intentional or not -- keeps many people
from discovering the GOOD SF -- and while we can all disagree over
exactly what the good stuff is, we can probably agree that it's
there and that it's not a farce.  I particularly object to a
farcical treatment of SF on a nationwide TV audience, where many
people will form or confirm their ideas about SF.  A small, cult
movie like STAR CRASH or HARDWARE WARS is one thing; most of the
audience has already been converted and will take it as a spoof.
Most of the folks out there in TV land don't know any better.

Did anybody see the third week?  (I didn't.)  Can you shed any
additional light on this discussion?  Did the farce continue?  Is it
intentional?  What is the meaning of 42?

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Oct 85 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #411
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Oct 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 411

Today's Topics:

           Books - Varley & Vonnegut & White & Zelazny &
                   Title Request Answered & The Wolf Worlds &
                   Feminist Authors (5 msgs),
           Films - Silver Bullet,
           Miscellaneous - Repost Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Replies
Date: 17 Oct 85 14:37:00 GMT

>As the above should indicate, "Press Enter []" won the Hugo for
>Best Short Story, and is therefore not likely to be found as a
>separate book. Your best bet is to get a hold of the issue of
>Asimov's which it appeared in. Alternately, it should show up in
>one of the "best of the year" collections, and if you don't mind
>waiting, will appear in the next Hugo Winners Anthology.

Whoa.  Strictly speaking, "Press Enter[]" won the Hugo for best
novella, not best short story, which was won by David Brin's "The
Crystal Spheres."  A minor point; both are short fiction.  "Press
Enter[]" was in the May, 1984 issue of Isaac Asimov's Science
Fiction Magazine and apparently has also been recently released in
one of the Best of the Year (1984) anthologies.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Vonnegut
Date: 16 Oct 85 23:12:00 GMT

> I saw a show on PBS years { & years } ago that had all this as
> seen by a time traveling space fellow.  I think he was bopping
> from story to story, but, as I said, it was a long time ago.
> Anyone else remember this show/movie?

The film was titled Between_Time_and_Timbuktu:_A_Space_Odyssey, and
was, indeed, a conglomerate of several Vonnegut stories, including
Cat's_Cradle and Harrison_Bergeron. The main character was a guy
named Stony Stevenson, a regular Joe-Blow who won a contest that had
as Grand Prize a trip to the time-warping space called something
like the Intergalactic Infindibulum.  It was a great film and, along
with the PBS production of LeGuin's The_Lathe_ of_Heaven, ranks
among my favorite sf films.  Unfortunately, as is typical of PBS,
they don't show their old stuff much, so the chances of seeing it
again are *very* slight. P.S. Bob & Ray are great as the
commentators on the television coverage of Stony's flight, which
lasts for months and months. Needless to say, they get rather hard
up for commentary after that long a period and begin discussing
things like how Mars reminds them of their driveway at home, which
is painted red and isn't that a rather unusual color for a driveway,
yes it is...

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Big Bugs - any pointers??
Date: 17 Oct 85 12:32:56 GMT

Try the Sector 12 General Hospital books by James White, such as
STAR SURGEON (the first, I think), MAJOR OPERATION (the best, I
feel), AMBULANCE SHIP, STAR HEALER, etc.  He proposes a fragile race
of human-sized insectoid beings from the low-gravity world of
Cinruss, one of whom, Dr. Prilicla, is a regular in the series.

I always liked White, though he's waxed formulaistic in his later
books.  His short story TABLEAU from his collection THE ALIENS AMONG
US is one of my all-time favourites.  His books are published by Del
Rey in North America and Corgi in England.  White lives in Ireland.

                                        Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: fear!robert@topaz.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon)
Subject: Re: Amber
Date: 16 Oct 85 15:00:36 GMT

SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU writes:
> Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked
> Corwin's pattern and then destroyed it.  First of all, to walk
> Corwin's pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie
> his descendant), in which catagory only Merlin falls.

Why assume that Rinaldo walked the pattern at all? If my memory
serves me, he is never shown walking through Shadow; he draws Trumps
and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have never
walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while still at
the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter 1).

Robert Plamondon
{turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re:want norse gods book title
Date: 18 Oct 85 01:00:07 GMT

>gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes:
>I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a
>modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing
>to death, I think.)  He's carried across the Bifrost where they're
>getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost
>Giants.  He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb...  I
>thought it was a good read when I was 14, and I'd like to try it
>again.

I think you are refering to one of the sections in The Compleat
Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (Ballantine
Books).  It is the first story and is called "The Roaring Trumpet".

I also read it young.  I think you'll enjoy it the second time,
too--I did.
                                     Sue Brezden
                                     ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE WOLF WORLDS by Allan Cole & Chris Bunch
Date: 16 Oct 85 15:45:32 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The Eternal Emperor ruled countless worlds across the galaxy.
  Vast armies and huge fleets awaited his command. But when he
  needed a "little" job done right, he turned to Mantis Team and its
  small band of militant problem solvers.

  Just then the Emperor needed to pacify the Wolf Words, the planets
  of an insignificant cluster that had raised space piracy to a low
  art.

  And Mantis Team could use all the men it needed -- as long as it
  needed no more than two."

The story has essentially three episodes and is similar to the "war"
stories written by Pournelle with some Dorsai thrown in. The jacket
description is accurate as far as it goes, but the book mainly
follows one character around. Sten is the leader of the Mantis team
involved in the exploits. He is a sympathetic character, realistic,
but not callous. The Emperor who directs the action doesn't get much
attention in the book, but what he gets is just right. The Emperor
is doing his best to keep things running smoothly, but he also wants
to have some fun. He uses Mantis Team to do corrective surgery
rather than involving fleets of spacecraft and armies of soldiers.

The book is mainly action and adventure, and it has some interesting
characters. Occasionally the storyline jumps a bit, and the first
"episode" in the book is a little short and doesn't seem to have all
that much to do with the other ones. But keep reading.

I enjoyed the book and give it 2.5 stars (good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 15 Oct 85 14:53:26 GMT

Joanna Russ's THE FEMALE MAN is a classic and not badly written
  either.
Elgin's NATIVE TONGUE and OZARK TRILOGY
MZBradley's more recent Darkover books, starting with THE SHATTERED
CHAIN.

These are all comparatively strident.  If you're willing to settle
merely for egalitarian books with strong, independent women, you'll
probably get better science fiction/fantasy. Like Brust's JHEREG and
YENDI, LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea series, book two or LEFT HAND OF
DARKNESS, or McKillip's Riddle of Stars trilogy or FORGOTTEN BEASTS
OF ELD.

Luck,
Lee Gold

------------------------------

From: ukc!ml1@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.Longley)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 17 Oct 85 17:58:15 GMT

I am not really sure what qualifies a book to be considered as
feminist, but I think most of the following are at least not sexist,
though I may be wrong about this. I would be interested in learning
which authors of SF you do consider as feminist in particular if
they are people I have not so far read.  Anyway I can at least claim
that I think the following books are worth reading.  By far the best
is "The Female Man" by Joanna Russ.

Lynn Abbey              Daughter of the Bright Moon
                        The Black Flame
                        The Guardians

F.M. Busby              Zelde M'Tana  Rissa Kerguelen

Octavia E. Butler       Clay's Ark
                        Mind of My Mind
                        Survivor
                        Patternmaster

Jayge Carr              Leviathan's Deep

Suzy McKee Charnas      Walk to the End of the World
                        Motherlines

Samuel R. Delany        Babel-17

Suzette Haden Elgin     Native Tongue

Cynthia Felice          Godsfire
                        The Sunbound Eclipses

Sally Miller Gearhart   The Wanderground

Mary Gentle             Golden Witchbreed

Phyllis Gotlieb         Sunburst
                        A Judgement of Dragons
                        Emperor, Swords, Pentacles
                        The Kingdom of the Cats

Jen Green & Sarah Lefanu   (eds)
                        Despatches from the Frontiers of the Female
                                Mind

Virginia Kidd  (ed)     The Eye of the Heron and Other Stories

Lee Killough            The Monitor, the Miners and the Shree
                        The Doppleganger Gambit
                        Liberty's World

Donald Kingsbury        Courtship Rite

Ursula K. LeGuin        The Dispossessed
                        The Left Hand of Darkness

Elizabeth A. Lynn       Watchtower
                        The Dancers of Arun
                        The Northern Girl

R.A. MacAvoy            Tea With the Black Dragon

Vonda N. McIntyre       The Exile Waiting
                        Dreamsnake

Sandra Miesel           Dreamrider

Jane Palmer             The Planet Dweller

Joanna Russ             The Female Man
                        We Who Are About To ...
                        The Two of Them
                        And Chaos Died
                        The Adventures of Alyx
                        The Zanzibar Cat
                        Extra(Ordinary) People

Pamela Sargent  (ed)    Women of Wonder
                        More Women of Wonder

James H. Schmitz        The Universe Against Her
                        The Lion Game
                        The Demon Breed
                        The Telzey Toy and Other Stories
                        Agent of Vega

Alice Sheldon           10,000 Light-Years From Home
                        Warm Worlds and Otherwise
                        Star Songs of an Old Primate
                        Out of the Everywhere, and
                           Other Extraordinary Visions

John Varley             Titan
                        Wizard
                        Demon
                        The Ophiuchi Hotline
                        In the Hall of the Martian Kings
                        The Barbie Murders

Joan D. Vinge           The Outcasts of Heaven Belt
                        Fireship
                        Eyes of Amber and Other Stories

------------------------------

From: mhs@lanl.ARPA
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 18 Oct 85 02:37:23 GMT

> From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
> * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr. ....
> * Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton ....
>
> Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
> a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
> had a chance to read any of those books.

James Tiptree Jr and Andre Norton are women.  The Gor series doesn't
treat women in radically different ways: it views them as objects.
Certainly Tiptree's gender and Norman's views have been discussed in
the net before.  I always thought that James Schmitz's women were
capable people.  Try "The demon breed" or the books about Telzey
Amberdon -- "The lion game" and "A tale of two clocks" are two of
them, I think, but I can't vouch for the titles.  But if you want
explicit feminist doctrine, you won't get it in these books.

------------------------------

From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 17 Oct 85 14:40:00 GMT

John Norman's Gor series certainly treats women in a different light
than most authors, but it isn't exactly a feminist light.  The Gor
series started as a pretty typical Swords and Muscles book with a
strong masculine supremacist bent. As the books kept coming out,
this element kept getting stronger until the books turned into some
weird softcore bondage pornography.  On Gor (which is on the other
side of the sun from the earth) women are basically property, and
enjoy being abused. The books have gotten very strange, and were
never very good to begin with.

"Norman" (it's a pseudonym) has published a book on sexuality.  The
subtitle might be "50 ways to tie your lover". Recommended for a
laugh, but too strange to take seriously.

The stuff isn't art, and it isn't amusing, but if you are in the
mood for something different and unpleasant, you might look at one.

                chris
                Chris Kostanick
                decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris
                ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris

------------------------------

From: dcc1!unixcorn@topaz.rutgers.edu (math.c)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 18 Oct 85 14:43:45 GMT

>From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
>Here are my favorites:
>
>* Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton
>Another male writer who espouses feminist views.  His female
>characters are also very well written.

  ALICE MARY NORTON (writes as Andre Norton) is and has been female
for a goodly number of years.

unixcorn  (alias m. gould)
gatech!dcc1!unixcorn

------------------------------

Subject: Silver Bullet
Date: 18 Oct 85 13:37:46 PDT (Fri)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@icse.UCI.EDU>

        Has anybody out there both seen the new Silver Bullet flick,
and also read the Steven King short on which it was based ??  I have
a first edition of the book ( good story, fantastic color artwork ),
and am getting real real tired of movies companies making lousy
movies out of King's writing.  The only passable King book --> movie
translation was Dead Zone, and even that wasn't worth watching more
than once or twice.

                Dave

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien@rand-unix.ARPA>
Date: 18 Oct 85 10:40:33 PDT (Fri)
Subject: Amber rip-off?

        I've done things in the wrong order.  Some issues back
someone mentioned a book which was very similar to the Amber novels.
Protagonist lives on earth, but is a member of a family living in
the REAL world, there's sudden trouble "back home", etc.  The author
was someone whom I'd never heard of (and I've heard of a lot).
First I deleted the issue, then I went off to look for the
book...and promptly forgot author & title.  It's not Farmer's World
of Tiers series, I know that...it's a single novel.

        Would whomever published that review please send me mail,
and tell me what that book was?  Thanks!

        (The SFL archives are too huge for me to attempt to suck
them over & grot through them.)

                                Mike O'Brien
                                {sdcrdcf,decvax}!randvax!obrien
                                obrien@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Oct 85 1010-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #412
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Oct 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 412

Today's Topics:

                     Books - September Booklist

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hplabsd!faunt@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt)
Subject: September Booklist from OCOH
Date: 17 Oct 85 17:27:13 GMT

This is the books received at OCOH for September, FYI, pulled off
SCI-FIDO, a SF oriented BBS in Oakland CA, run by Mike Farren.
Debbie is Debbie Notkin, of LOCUS review fame.

The Other Change of Hobbit
2433 Channing Way
Berkeley, CA  94704
(415) 848-0413

This is the on-line edition of our monthly booklist for September,
1985.  Thanks to Mike Farren for suggesting that we put it up on
SCI-FIDO and making a space for it.  We hope it's useful to all of
you, whether you shop with us or at your local store.

And now, for the books received in September (trumpet and drums) ...

HARDCOVERS AND TRADE PAPERBACKS

Anthony, Piers          WITH A TANGLED SKEIN
                          Book 3 of Incarnations of Immortality.
                          This one's Fate.  ("Sometimes the reader
                          doesn't bother with the novel at all, just
                          the Note." - the Author's Note)
Asimov, Isaac           ROBOTS AND EMPIRE
                          Novel straddling the Lije Baley and
                          Foundation books; features Lady Gladia, R.
                          Giskard and R. Daneel.  ("Good book -
                          brings back the excite- ment of
                          development of ideas ... and some pretty
                          good characters." - Dave)
Baum, L. Frank          LITTLE WIZARD STORIES OF OZ
                          Reprint with color plates of 1914 edition.
                        (See also Thompson, Ruth Plumly)
Brown, Fredric          THE FREAK SHOW MURDERS
                          Previously uncollected mystery short
                          stories; introduction by Richard A.
                          Lupoff.  350-copy numbered edition, signed
                          by Lupoff.  The fifth such book published
                          by Dennis McMillan.  Recommended by Tom
                          and Debbie
Carr, Jayge             THE TREASURE IN THE HEART OF THE MAZE
                          Companion novel to NAVIGATOR'S SINDROME.
                          ("Not as good as the first, but some great
                          space opera [with characters] anyway." -
                          Debbie)
Cherryh, C. J.          ANGEL WITH THE SWORD
                          The first DAW hardcover.
Dick, Philip K.         LIES, INC.
                          The British edition of THE UNTELEPORTED
                          MAN, incorporating later additions and
                          revisions by Dick, restoring one of the
                          three missing passages, completing the
                          remaining two gaps (Dick's text now
                          available from the Philip K. Dick Society)
                          with new material by John Sladek.
Eager, Edward           HALF MAGIC
                          A children's classic with a new cover
                          (and a different size).
Gardner, John and       GILGAMESH
  John Maier (translators) Trade paperback reprint of 1984 hardcover.
Gould, Stephen Jay      THE FLAMINGO'S SMILE:  REFLECTIONS IN NATURAL
                        HISTORY
                          Essay collection.
Haldeman, Joe           DEALING IN FUTURES
                          New short story collection.
Hogan, James P.         THE PROTEUS OPERATION
King, Stephen           THE BACHMAN BOOKS (hardcover)
                        THE BACHMAN BOOKS (paperback)
                          The four pre-THINNER novels by "Richard
                          Bachman"--RAGE, THE LONG WALK, ROADWORK
                          and THE RUNNING MAN plus "Why I Was
                          Bachman."
LeGuin, Ursula K.       ALWAYS COMING HOME
                          This boxed trade paperback and audio-
                          cassette precede the $50.00 hardcover.
                          ("A fascinating complete evocation of a
                          future culture.  Not a novel, but a full
                          anthropological record.  Recommended." -
                          Debbie)
Lindsay, David          A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS
                          Finally back in print.
McKillip, Patricia A.   THE MOON AND THE FACE
                          Sequel to MOON-FLASH.
Pinkwater, Honest Dan'l ROGER'S UMBRELLA
                          Reprint of 1982 hardcover Pinkwater's an
                          addiction - are you hooked yet?  This
                          one's for young children.
Pournelle, Jerry, Jim   THE SCIENCE FICTION YEARBOOK
   Baen and John F.       The fourth best of the year, and the only
   Carr (eds.)            one to reprint David Brin's Hugo-winning
                          short story "The Crystal Spheres."
                          ("Notable for its critical essays,
                          especially Benford's" - Debbie)
Ryman, Geoff            THE WARRIOR WHO CARRIED LIFE
                          First novel.  British trade paperback
                          (reprint).  ("Superbly written, but with
                          very graphic violence.  Recommended, but
                          only with that warning." - Debbie)
Sagan, Carl             COSMOS
                          First novel.
Smith, Stephanie A.     SNOW-EYES
                          Young adult first novel.  Gorgeous Mariano
                          cover.  Recommended by Debbie and Tom.
Snyder, Zilpha Keatly   THE CHANGING MAZE
                          Large-format children's art-and-story
                          book, illustrated by Charles Mikolaycak.
Strieber, Whitley       WOLF OF SHADOWS
                          Large-format young adult novel.
                          ("Wolf-eye view of survival in a nuclear
                          winter." - Dave)
Thompson, Ruth Plumly   THE GNOME KING OF OZ
                        THE GIANT HORSE OF OZ
                        JACK PUMPKINSEED OF OZ
                          Oz Nos. 21-23.  Reprints of 1927, 1928,
                          1929 hardcovers, respectively.
Wodehouse, P. G.        A WODEHOUSE BESTIARY
                          Collection.

MASS PAPERBACKS

Adams, Douglas and      THE MEANING OF LIFF
   John Lloyd             Hilarious definitions attached to
                          mostly British place names.  By the
                          author of HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE ...
Alexander, Lloyd        THE BEGGAR QUEEN
                          Concludes the trilogy containing
                          WESTMARK and THE KESTREL.  Reprint
                          of the 1984 hardcover.
Anthony, Piers          BEARING AN HOURGLASS
                          Book 2 of Incarnations of Immortality.
                          This one's Time.  Reprint ofthe 1984
                          hardcover.
Asimov, Isaac           THE MARTIAN WAY ... AND OTHER STORIES
                          1955 collection.
Attanasio, A.A.         RADIX
                          Paperback edition of 1981 Morrow hardcover.
Bailey, Robin W.        SKULL GATE
                          Sequel to FROST (which is now out of print).
Ballard, J. G.          CONCRETE ISLAND
                          First American paperback of 1973 novel.
                        CRASH
                          First American paperback of 1973 novel;
                          includes English version of the
                          introduction to the 1974 French edition.
                        EMPIRE OF THE SUN
                          Reprint of the 1984 hardcover of this
                          semi-autobiographical non-sf novel set in
                          World War II China.
Bova, Ben               THE ASTRAL MIRROR
                          Collection of fiction and non-fiction,
                          some from older collections.
Bradley, Marion Zimmer  THE WORLD WRECKERS
                          1971 Darkover novel; featuring latest
                          of the new James Warhola covers.
Carlyon, Richard        THE DARK LORD OF PENGERSICK
                          Paperback of 1980 hardcover; would have
                          been a MagicQuest book if the line hadn't
                          been absorbed by Ace.
Carver, Jeffrey A.      THE INFINITY LINK
                          Paperback of 1984 hardcover.
Cherryh, C. J.          CUCKOO'S EGG
                          Reprint of 1985 Phantasia Press hardcover.
                          Recommended by Jan and Jennifer.
Coppel, Alfred (as      THE WARLOCK OF RHADA
   "Robert Cham           The fourth Rhada novel.  To be backed
   Gilman")               up shortly by the first three (only #1
                          ever had a paperback).
Dalmas, John            FANGLITH
Dann, Jack and Gardner  BESTIARY!
   Dozois (eds.)          Reprint anthology.
Davidson, Lionel        UNDER PLUM LAKE
                          Young adult reissue (1980) with new cover.
deLint, Charles         MULENGRO:  A Romany Tale
Dickson, Gordon R.      THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA
                          New in paperback.  Teensy-tiny print for
                          696 pages!  (Reduced from hardcover
                          plates).  Three books long for less than
                          the price of two!
                        THE OUTPOSTER
                          Reprint.
Gallun, Raymond Z.      BIOBLAST
Gardner, John           GRENDEL
                          New cover on this paperback reissue of a
                          1971 book.  ("Wonderful tale of the
                          monster's side in BEOWULF.  Recommended."
                          - Debbie)
Gaskell, Jane           THE CITY
                          The Atlan Saga: 4.  DAW's first
                          reprint of this series.
Geis, Richard and       THE BURNT LANDS
   Elton Elliott (as
   "Richard Elliott"
Grant, Charles L. (ed.) GREYSTONE BAY
                          Original shared-world horror anthology.
Green, Roland           PEACE COMPANY
Harrison, Harry         A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN
                          "Origin" novel of Slippery Jim di Griz.
Hawkins, Ward           SWORD OF FIRE
                          Sequel to RED FLAME BURNING.
Herbert, Frank          DIRECT DESCENT
                          Reprint (1980) of this short story
                          disguised as a book ... practically an
                          illustration for every two pages of large
                          print!
Lichtenberg, Jacqueline UNTO ZEOR FOREVER
                          First Berkley edition.
McKiernan, Dennis L.    THE DARKEST DAY
                          Reprint of the 1984 hardcover.  Book III
                          of the Iron Tower Trilogy; another
                          beautiful Alan Lee cover.
McKillip, Patricia A.   MOON-FLASH
                          Paperback of the 1984 hardcover.
Meyers, Richard         RETURN TO DOOMSTAR
                          Sequel to ... DOOMSTAR, of cours.
Morris, Janet & Chris   THE 40-MINUTE WAR
                          or THE 40 MINUTE WAR or THE FORTY MINUTE
                          WAR ... anyway a reprint of the 1985
                          hardcover (which only has two of those
                          titles).
Norton, Andre and       HOUSE OF SHADOWS
   Phyllis Miller         Reprint of the 1984 hardcover.
Norton, Andre           STAR MAN'S SON
Pohl, Frederik and      SEARCH THE SKY
   C. M. Kornbluth        Newly and substantially revised by
                          the surviving half.
Resnick, Mike           ADVENTURES:  "Being a Stirring Chronicle of
                        Intrigue, Romance, Danger, Hairbreadth Escapes
                        and Thrilling Triumphs over Fierce Beasts and
                        Fiercer Men in the Mysterious and Exotic Dark
                        Continent, as Recounted by the Daring,
                        Resourceful, Handsome, and Modest Christian
                        Gentleman who Experienced Them."
                        *Whew!*
Saunders, Charles       IMARO III:  THE TRAIL OF BOHU
Silverberg, Robert      THE SILENT INVADERS
                          Now from Tor.  1963 novel reprinted with
                          "Valley Beyond Time" (1957), a novella.
Snyder, Zilpha Keatly   THE HEADLESS CUPID
                          Juvenile.  Reprint (1971).
Swycaffer, Jefferson P. THE UNIVERSAL PREY
                          Novel based on the games Imperium (R)
                          and Traveller (R).
Underwood, Tim and      FEAR ITSELF:  The Horror Fiction of Stephen
   Chuck Miller (eds.)  King
                          First mass paperback of this collection of
                          essays on the works of Stephen King with
                          foreword by The Man Himself.
Wagner, Karl Edward     THE YEAR'S BEST HORROR STORIES:  SERIES XIII
   (ed.)
Watson, Ian             THE BOOK OF THE RIVER
                          British paperback.
Webb, Sharon            RAM SONG
                          Concluding third of the Earth Song Triad
                          (EARTHCHILD, EARTHSONG).  Paperback
                          reprint of the Atheneum hardcover.
Weis, Margaret and      DRAGONLANCE (TM) CHRONICLES VOL. III:  DRAGONS
  Tracy Hickman         OF SPRING DAWNING
                          Concludes this gaming-related trilogy.
Williams, Paul O.       THE SWORD OF FORBEARANCE
                          Book 7 of the Pelbar cycle.
Yarbro, Chelsea Quinn   TO THE HIGH REDOUBT
                          Recommended by Debbie.

  ....!hplabs!faunt     faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Oct 85 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #413
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 413

Today's Topics:

             Books - Goldstein & O'Donnell & Phillips &
                     Schmitz & Tepper & Zelazny & Title Request &
                     Star Trek & Bugs & End of the World Stories
             Miscellaneous - The birth of SF-Lovers &
                     Star Wars & Typos & Creation Con

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE RED MAGICIAN by Lisa Goldstein
Date: 24 Oct 85 05:15:49 GMT

                 THE RED MAGICIAN by Lisa Goldstein
                            Pocket, 1982
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     A while back I reviewed a number of stories concerning golems.
They were, in fact, every book I could get my hands on concerning
the creature of folklore.  Following the publication of that article
I got comments saying that golems showed up in comic books (which
are effectively unavailable to me) and in Lisa Goldstein's THE RED
MAGICIAN.  Now that was embarrassing because I owned the book and
once it was mentioned I remembered seeing a golem on the cover.  THE
RED MAGICIAN joined 33 other books on my "must read" shelf (some of
which have been there over two years).  My shame at having missed
this one for my article pushed it up toward the front of the queue.
And, well, here we are.

     Of late we have seen fantasy novels set in a number of
historical cultures.  It is a pleasant change from having them all
set in Celtic Britain, Medieval Europe, or some never-never land.
Classical China, for example, was used in Hughart's BRIDGE OF BIRDS.
Australian Aboriginal mythology is the basis of Patricia Wrightson's
trilogy THE ICE IS COMING, THE DARK BRIGHT WATER, and THE JOURNEY
BEHIND THE WIND.  Goldstein sets her story in the Jewish villages of
Eastern Europe, just before, during, and after the Holocaust.  The
story is of a mystical rabbi who really can work miracles and of a
traveling magician who has forseen the future and arrives with
warnings of what is to come.  A conflict begins between the two that
will go on for years.  We see the story from the viewpoint of Kicsi,
a young girl infatuated with Voros, the magician.

     THE RED MAGICIAN is too short and simple to be considered an
adult fantasy, but it is more sophisticated than most juveniles.
Goldstein has a feel for Jewish folklore and life in the Eastern
European Jewish communities.  THE RED MAGICIAN is a fantasy that
will be quickly forgotten.  It will probably be read mostly by
Jewish fantasy readers.  (I think that BRIDGE OF BIRDS will be read
by a much higher proportion of non-Chinese.)  It is a simple but
well-written story that should not disappoint most of its readers.
Rate it +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.  Oh, and as for a golem, there is
one but it is only a minor plot element.

                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: nmtvax!wildstar@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Flinger Series
Date: 18 Oct 85 01:54:38 GMT

Does anyone know if Kevin O'Donnell wrote a Flinger novel after
"LAVA"?

Also, does anyone realize that McGill Feigan could Fling 900 kg of
antimatter particles at .99999 lightspeed into a sun and thereby
blow an entire solar system?

Andrew Fine

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: More Peter Phillips stories
Date: 18 Oct 85 10:05:02 GMT

The day after I sent off the first message listing stories by Peter
Phillips, I found references to three more that appeared in
magazines. Unfortunately, I don't have any reference books that
might tell me if and where they might have been reprinted in
anthologies. My anthologies are not at hand.

"Death's Bouquet"               Weird Tales (9/48)
"No Silence for Maloeween"      Weird Tales (5/48)
"She Didn't Bounce"             Suspense  (Spr/51)
        [I don't know whether this last one is fantasy/sf
         or not; my magazines are not at hand either. This
         particular magazine ran a mixture of genres.]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 18 Oct 85 14:26:00 GMT

A minor quibble on Schmitz.
The protagonist in A Tale of Two Clocks is Trigger Argee, not Telzey
Amberdon. The book Agent of Vega has 3 strong female protagonists,
and is my second favorite Schmitz book. (My fav of course being The
Witches of Karres) Most of Schmitz's writting has strong female
characters.
                chris
                Chris Kostanick
                decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris
                ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: KING'S BLOOD FOUR by Sheri S. Tepper
Date: 17 Oct 85 14:47:38 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "In the lands of the True Game, your lifelong identity will emerge
  as you play. Prince or Sorcerer, Armiger or Tragamor, Demon or
  Doyen...

  Which will it be?"

This book is the first of a trilogy, the other two being NECROMANCER
NINE and WIZARD'S ELEVEN. The world is one in which the important
individuals have "talents" -- reading minds, predicting the future,
moving objects from a distance, etc. Those without a talent are
called pawns; they generally are servants and are used as cannon
fodder in battles between those with talents.

Young people are educated in playing the Game, identifying the
players, etc., at the Houses of Gamemasters. Only at such schools is
the Game played for demonstration purposes only.

The story concerns 15-year-old Peter who has been at such a house
all his life. Like most others his age, he has yet to discover his
talent.  His best friend, a teacher, betrays him, and he is sent on
a journey to another school for safekeeping. He is pursued, and he
learns about the world and his heritage.

Peter tells the story himself. The pace starts out slow and picks up
with each chapter. The world seems to be well thought out and the
characters are more fleshed out than in most books. Peter acts like
a 15-year-old, unlike some books in which the young characters act
much older than their ostensible ages. I was fascinated to catch
glimpses of how this world is related to our world.

I had read the second book of the series some time ago; I normally
don't read books out of sequence, but the second seemed very
interesting and I couldn't find the first book at the time. I
enjoyed the second very much, and I liked the first one too. I give
KING'S BLOOD FOUR 3.0 stars (very good), and I look forward to
reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle)
Subject: More and more Trumps_of_Doom speculation *SPOILER*
Date: 16 Oct 85 14:59:54 GMT

        There has been speculation as to how and by what means did
Rinaldo get his instruction on the use of shadow.  After Merlin had
gone to the country club for his meeting with an agent of the other
side(?) and been stood up, Fiona who had been watching the entire
time came and talked with him.  During this conversation she asked
to see a picture of Luke, she responded as if she were trying to
hide the fact that she knew who he was.  Therefore she was the one
who more than likely told Rinaldo that his father had been killed
and also gave him the instruction necessary to walk the pattern.
Remember also that Fiona is one of the most adept at working with
trumps and shadow.

Charlie
ARPA: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS.EDU
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!speegle

------------------------------

From: infinet!cgf@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Faylor)
Subject: Trying to remember a book title
Date: 17 Oct 85 18:57:39 GMT

When I was in the third grade (about 24 years ago) I read a book
that sort of got me started on science fiction/fantasy.  It involved
some kids who found an old coin which granted them wishes... sort
of.  The coin was so old that they had to wish for everything twice
to get a complete wish, otherwise they only got half of what they
wished for.

I only remember brief scenes beyond that.  I think I remember that
they went back in time and met Merlin at King Arthur's Court and he
considered taking the coin away from them until they talked him out
of it. I remember that they tried to modify the behavior of their
mother (who was giving them a hard time) to make her less strict and
were not pleased with the outcome.  Eventually the coin stopped
working for them and they passed it along to someone else.

I would really like to find this book again.  It invoked a sense of
wonder in me that I have not forgotten.

                        cgf
                decvax!wanginst!infinet!cgf

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 19 Oct 1985 00:13:38-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Price of the Phoenix

> From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
>      I sit here blithely replying, and find that I can only
> remember one of the author's names: Jacqueline Lichtenberg,
> currently of Sime/Gen fame. The other author wrote a Star Trek
> fact book in the mid-70's I think, in which case it would be Joan
> Winston, but I havent been able to find these books in my library
> for a couple of years;...

They say memory is the first to go... :-)

The writers of PRICE OF THE PHOENIX and FATE OF THE PHOENIX (as well
as at least one other Trek novel, the title of which I forget and am
too lazy to look up, and editing the two NEW VOYAGES anthologies)
are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Lichtenberg never wrote a
Star Trek novel (unless it was fan published), but her sometime
Sime/Gen collaborator, Jean Lorrah, wrote THE VULCAN ACADEMY
MURDERS.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: circadia!dave@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Big Bugs - any pointers??
Date: 18 Oct 85 04:34:24 GMT

> From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
> I am looking for stories or possibly essay-type discussions about
> giant insects.

Look at James White's "Sector General" stories.  Also, Heinlein's
"Starship Troopers" has some discussion about insectoid life.

David Messer   UUCP:  ...ihnp4!circadia!dave
               FIDO:  14/415 (SYSOP)

------------------------------

From: mhs@lanl.ARPA
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 17 Oct 85 07:26:40 GMT

  Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
  Nevil Shute, "On the beach"
  George Stewart, "Earth abides"
  Andre Norton, "Daybreak: 2250 AD" (or some such date)
  Larry Niven, "World out of time"
  Spider Robinson, "Telempath"
For rather different viewpoints, try
  Poul Anderson, "Brainwave"
  Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's cradle"

Humfph.  Most of these are 25-30 years old.  Stewart will probably
be hard to find; I think Norton was reprinted within the past 10
years, and Anderson was just reprinted.  Can't find my copy of "When
worlds collide," and don't recall whether that was Philip Wylie
alone or Wylie and Balmer.  Oh --
  Edgar Pangborn, "Davy"
  Clifford Simak, "City"
  Walter M. Miller Jr., "A canticle for Leibowitz"

These last two won International Fantasy Awards back in the 50s
  "City" before Hugos even, I seem to recall.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 26 Sep 85 22:54:10-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: The birth of SF-Lovers.

> From: BOB (webber@red.rutgers.edu)
> * anybody know when sf-lovers started (i assume a different
> birthdate on USENET vs ARPANET, was the marriage immediate?)?

     The first letter in the archives is dated 15 Sept 1979, from
lstewart@parc-maxc, announcing that Schmitz's Demon Breed was out in
paperback.  This passed through the SF-Lovers mailing list at
MIT-AI, which was then just a mail reflector.  There is a letter 3
days later from Richard Brodie (one of the first administrators),
asking if someone was willing to donate disk space for back issues.
Thus, the list may have been in existence for a while before
mid-September, and we have lost that traffic.

     By mid-January '80, SFL traffic was bringing MIT-AI to its
knees, and the list was on the verge of being banned.  Out of this
problem grew the digest format, moderated for the first year or so
by Roger D.  Duffey II. The very first digest appeared on 14 January
1980.

    I do not know exactly when USENET started having a regular SF
mailing list. A VERY cursory examination of the archives shows a
submission from sdcsvax!davidson@berkeley on 17 October 1980, and
one from decvax!duke!unc!bch@berkeley on 15 December 1980. The
latter certainly looks like uucp, but I am not sure about the
former.

     The volume numbers are a little confusing until one realizes
that until the start of 1984, there was a new volume every 6 months,
and they have been yearly since. SFL now a occupies roughly 20
Mbytes.

                                                Peter Trei
[I cant believe I've printed the Whole Thing!]

------------------------------

From: mmm!cipher@topaz.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #367
Date: 17 Oct 85 13:28:31 GMT

>From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
>> Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi
>> knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it.
>> Far more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards
>> his (her?)  sword.
>
>And, from a previous posting that I'm too lazy to find, words to
>the effect of ``blaster bolts go so slowly that you can almost walk
>away from them.''  Sounds like a fast person could move a
>(virtually massless) sword to catch them.

I have to agree with Mr. Bloom.  Nobody is fast enough to deflect
blaster bolts after they've been fired.  The trick for a Jedi Knight
is to know where the bolt will strike and start to move before it's
fired.  Extraordinary sense perception is not required for this
activity, since it is easy to see where a gun is pointing and when
the wielder's finger tightens on the trigger.  Of course, if the
wielder is far away, there is plenty of time to dodge the
slow-moving (relative to C) bolt.

------------------------------

From: ptsfb!djl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Re: great typo in "Stainless Steel Rat is Born"
Date: 19 Oct 85 06:08:34 GMT

chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:

>As long as we're talking about typos, I just started Harrison's new
>book "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born" ...  ... sharp tushes ..."
>
>You don't suppose they really meant tusks, do you??? *giggle* --

According to my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate), a "tush" is a
tusk, specifically an enlarged canine.

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

From: leadsv!sas@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart)
Subject: Re: A Star Trek Rumor?
Date: 17 Oct 85 21:13:44 GMT

> From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
> In the flier for the Creation Con in Palo Alto this month they are
> saying that their guest, Roger C Carmel (aka Harry Mudd) may be in
> ST IV.  Any other news from the Star Trek network?

When and where is Creation Con?
                                        Scott A. Stewart
                                        LMSC - Sunnyvale

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 24 Oct 85 0955-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #414
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 414

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brust & Herbert & McIntyre & Peake &
                    Schmitz & Wolfe & Title Request Answered &
                    Bugs & Feminist Authors (3 msgs),
            Films - Threads,
            Miscellaneous - Molecular Chain

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Hail and Fare Well
Date: 16 Oct 85 22:14:51 GMT

As of November 8, 1985, I will no longer have access to UUCP, as I
will be changing jobs.  I hope to have a system which can handle
such a node in the future, but it could be weeks, months, or years
away.  I hope only weeks.

I have enjoyed being in this newsgroup immensly.  Thank you all.

I mention this here because my new job will be writing science
fiction full time.  It is a gamble, but I hope a good one.  In any
case, I hope the addtion of one more writer to the ranks is
sufficiently newsworthy to stave off any thoughts of excessive
arrogance on my part for mentioning it here.

Wish me luck, folks.  I'm gonna need it.

                        Best Wishes To All,
                        Steven Karl Zoltan Brust

------------------------------

From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Books into movies
Date: 16 Oct 85 20:20:10 GMT

andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>>Did you see the "ornithopter" flapping it's wings in the movie?
>>Did the Baron look to you as if he was too fat to walk without
>>suspensor globes?  The book specifically mentions that the
>>stillsuits were a slick gray material, not black leather.
>> ... <more differences> ...
>     The thing is that these are two different media, which treat
>stories in two distinct ways.  It's easy to write a book which
>accurately follows a movie, but often almost impossible to make a
>movie which accurately follows a book.  Everyone has a different
>idea of how faithfully a book could have been followed; in this
>case, the author's opinion happens to be not as hard-line as yours.
>     I read that they tried to make the ornithopter wings flap, but
>it just looked too hokey on film.  (I thought that the whole idea
>of ornithopters was hokey when I first read it!)  As for the black
>stillsuits - I'm sure that getting suits of the exact colour
>mentioned in the book was not a prime consideration, and certainly
>can't affect the story line too too much.
> .."I did not write _Dune_ to make money or to interest others.  I
>wrote it merely because this story was burning inside me to be
>Written..."
>     Sure.  And my real name's Kchula-Rrit.

The plot of Dune is really very complex.  I think the problem is
that they tried to make the movie TOO MUCH like the book.  Details
like colors of stillsuits and operation of ornithopters aside, they
apparently attempted to cram in as much of the original as they
could, which is just not the right way to make a movie.  The result,
as we have seen, is complete confusion among those who have not read
the book (and many who have).

I believe Frank Herbert when he says he wrote Dune because it was
"burning inside him to be written" because of the poor quality of
most of the sequels.  These, apparently, he WAS writing for the
money.
                                        Andre Guirard

------------------------------

From: chk@mordred (Chuck Koelbel)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 17 Oct 85 19:17:32 GMT

Another excellent book in this genre is _Dreamsnake_ by Vonda
McIntyre.  It is an expansion of her short story "Of Mist, Grass,
and Sand", also a good read (it forms the first chapter of the
novel, but can be read on its own).

Brief summary: Set in a world several hundred years after a global
catastrophe (exact cause unknown, but it included nukes).  Society
has survived, but regressed to a sort of middle ages (semi-feudal
society, little trade between towns).  The main character is Snake,
a travelling healer; Mist, Grass, and Sand are snakes which she uses
to manufacture her medicines.  The strong points of the book are the
writing style, the characterization of Snake (and other human
characters), and a very well- developed picture of the society of
the post-holocaust world.  Unfortunately, the ending is rather weak
(in my opinion) - just a bit too pat for me to believe.  For a first
novel, however, it is extremely good.

All in all, I would give this book 3 stars (out of 4).  Highly
recommended.
                                                Chuck Koelbel

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Gormenghast
Date: 18 Oct 85 02:08:00 GMT

terry@nrcvax.UUCP writes:
>As a set of books, [Gormenghast] was okay, interesting, rather
>ponderous, but imaginative.  As a movie it would be really out of
>place.

I disagree. The Gormenghast books are very visual. Peake was also an
illustrator and it really shows. Reading along you develop clear
pictures of the various characters and scenes. I claim that part of
the reason it reads so slowly is that the brain is working overtime
developing detailed pictures. It would not be an easy movie to make,
and it would probably have to be done in parts to be good, but a
faithful version would be wonderful.
                                        Wombat
                                ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

From: mhs@lanl.ARPA
Subject: James Schmitz (feminist sf/fantasy)
Date: 21 Oct 85 03:29:34 GMT

> A minor quibble on Schmitz.
> The protagonist in A Tale of Two Clocks is Trigger Argee, not
> Telzey Amberdon. The book Agent of Vega has 3 strong female
> protagonists, and is my second favorite Schmitz book. (My fav of
> course being The Witches of Karres) Most of Schmitz's writting has
> strong female characters.
>               Chris Kostanick

You're right, of course: "A tale of two clocks" isn't about Telzey.
I recall a book, called "The Telzey toy," that is.  Again, it isn't
possible for me to vouch for the title.  It's not that I'm guessing
at something of which I've only heard.  I've seen the books.  I have
the books; I even know where they are.  In the garage.  With several
thousand others.  All the space I want to fill with shelves for
books is otherwise occupied.  Wife.  Son.  Daughter.  Strong
protagonists all.  And all with their own books.  Now we are staking
claims to son's room after he leaves for school.  I've offered him
shelf space, and he can sleep in the garage when he comes home.

Perhaps this explains my vagueness about titles.  I dislike to post
guesswork, but circumstances prevent the precision I prefer.  What
does jayembee do?  Catalogs occupy less space than the books
themselves, but are in many ways less satisfying.  Jerry, do you
actually have all those books at your fingertips?  In your house?
If so, can I sleep in your garage?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Oct 85 20:06:43 pdt
From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Wolfe's Book of Days

Gene Wolfe's Book of Days has been reissued in paperback by Arrow
Books Ltd, a british publisher.  I do not believe BoD has ever been
published in paperback in America.  Change of Hobbit (a bookstore in
LA) still has about 5 copies of the Arrow edition.  -Steve

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!somner@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Somner)
Subject: Re: want norse gods book title
Date: 18 Oct 85 15:59:50 GMT

gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes:
>I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a
>modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing
>to death, I think.)  He's carried across the Bifrost where they're
>getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost
>Giants.  He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb...

I read this book as well.  Unfortunately, this book lies about 400
miles away from where I am right now, so I can't remember the exact
title.  I believe that the title is "The Day of the Gods" or
something similar.  Don't rag on me too much if I can't remember the
title!  Very few people have read this book, as far as I can tell!

UUCP:  ...!{decvax, ihnp4, allegra, vax135}!cornell!lasspvax!somner
Arpa:  somner@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu.arpa
Bitnet:  ruuj@cornella.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 19:34 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Insectoids...

John Brunner wrote a novel about a race of creatures that were
vaguely crablike, but different.  Perhaps they will do?

The book was called Total Eclipse and concerns the Earthmen trying
to determine what caused these creatures to die out.  It may not be
what you are looking for since there are no living specimens, but
it's the only one I can recall, unless...

The story Sandkings was really weird, and the creatures were
insectoid. I recommend this story highly.  It is by George R.R.
Martin and appeared in Omni and a book by the same name.  Check this
one out twice!

Jon Bob

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 18 Oct 85 15:23:14 GMT

> smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes:
>>     I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
>>and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
>>sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
>>recommendations ...
>
> I'd send you mail, but I can't use the path you give.
>
> James Tiptree, Jr., is a woman & a hell of a good SF writer.

Like Judith, I can't use your path.  I second the Tiptree
nomination, and would like to add:

Jessica Amanda Salmonson: Editor of Amazons and Amazons II
                          (feminist heroic fantasy)
Vonda N. McIntyre        Dreamsnake (Hugo winner) and others
Spider Robinson          Stardance (with Jeanne Robinson) and others
Elizabeth Lynn           The Sardonyx Net (her best in my opinion)
C. J. Cherryh            very prolific
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro False Dawn (I like her sf much better than her
     fanatsy)
Kate Wilhelm             many books, excelent writer
Octavia Butler           Mind of my Mind, Clay's Ark, etc
Marta Randall
Jo Clayton               Alytis series (fantasy, ok, but not a
     favorite)

There are many more, and if you send me a uucp path, I can go
through my library in a detailed way.  I'm generally not willing to
sacrifice good writing for political correctness, so I haven't got
many of the feminist books that are out today.

Ariel Shattan
{decvax, ihnp4, allegra, uw-beaver, ucbvax}!tektronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Chai)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy(Norton & Anthony)
Date: 19 Oct 85 19:11:53 GMT

Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA writes:
>* Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton
>Another male writer who espouses feminist views.  His female
>characters are also very well written.

Oh my GAAAWD! My favorite sf/fantasy writer, full name Alice Mary
Norton, once dubbed as the "Grand Dame of sf", called a "male".  A
big brrrrphphph (raspberry) to you, Caro !-)

Actually Andre is now her official name.  When she started to write,
she used the name Andrew North, and later, Andre Norton.  Since then
she has written a whole lot of books with this name, so she decided
to have her "real" name changed officially .  All this because way
back then (1950's) there was no such thing as a female sf writer.

She doesn't like to go to conventions. Also, she's already
semi-retired now, so she's not well known (but her books are still
widely available).  I like all her Witch World books (a dozen or so
of them ).  Lately her stories have become, ur, let's say
predictable (rather then boring).  But with some newer ones she
collaborated with another person, and these are quite good.

>* A Spell For Chameleon, The Source Of Magic, Castle Roogna, etc.,
>Piers Anthony
>I've found Piers Anthony to be an author who, unlike
>many others, has no problem at all with feminist doctrine.

AARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!  I'd like to hit anyone who'd recommend the
Xanth novels to a feminist.  THEY ARE SEXIST TO THE EXTREME !!!!!!!
I mean, do you think that in a land where every female tries to look
pretty, wants to show off their legs, and schemes to catch men for
husbands, there is equality among the sexes?  Now I'm not sure
whether Piers Anthony did it tongue-in-cheek or not, since this
sexism appear only briefly in the Blue Adept trilogy and the Cluster
novels, and not in the other books by him that I've read.  (I
haven't read any of his recent stuff, they sort of put me off after
the first few chapters).  Anyway I'm not the only person who find
the Xanth novels sexist.  I have no idea what you mean by "female
doctrine" if you believe that a feminist would enjoy these books.
And another bbbrrrrphphphph to you !

Henry Chai
a humble student at the Faculty of Library and Information Science,
U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 18 Oct 85 16:18:47 GMT

> From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
> Here are my favorites:
> * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr.
> For a man, Tiptree sure writes strong female characters well.  I
> also enjoy the upbeat endings that his novels always have.

James Tiptree, Jr., SHOULD write strong female characters, if anyone
can, since he is the pseudonym of Alice Sheldon.  (We all fall into
this trap; I even used "his" name in a novelty item I did in OMNI
four years ago-- "Science Fictional Table of Elements.")

arlan andrews, analog irregular

------------------------------

From: hou2d!lws@caip.rutgers.edu (lwsamocha)
Subject: Looking for movie *THREADS*
Date: 21 Oct 85 19:18:45 GMT

I am searching for a source for the motion picture *THREADS*.  It
concerns survival(?) in a post-nuclear world.  I believe it is a
British Production about 2 or 3 years old, and it was shown on
Public TV in the NYC area last spring, but has not been shown in the
NYC area since.

Has this movie been discussed on the net?

Is it available on video tape?

Thanx in advance.

LWS
hou2d!lws

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Light-saber construction...
Date: 18 Oct 85 22:30:39 GMT

mike@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Stalnaker) writes:
>       Rob, the sinclair chain is what held when it was used in
>the Ringworld Engineers. Wu used the Shadow square wire as a
>backup, and the extreme heat from the Sunflowers
>broke/melted/something that.  The Sinclair chain was the
>superconductor. NOT the shadowsquare wire.

I just read this book. Both molecule chain and superconducting
thread were used. The molecule chain broke (presumably because it
overheated), while the superconductor held (presumably because it
was cooled by the lake to 100C).  Incidentally, real superconductors
have critical fields (electric, magnetic) beyond which they break
down and are no longer superconducting. I'm sure the same phenomenon
appears in heat conduction (it has to do with an energy level gap;
once you put in enough energy from outside to excite electrons over
the gap you can have losses), so I doubt the thing is actually going
to sustain a treemendous current without breakdown. But it's
*possible*.

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax  or
      norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman
BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA
US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University,
         Ithaca, New York 14853
Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work)    (607)-272-7750 (home)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Oct 85 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #415
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 415

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & DeLint & Eager & Tevis &
                     Zelazny & Feminist Authors (2 msgs) &
                     Star Trek & Norse Gods (3 msgs),
             Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 02:10:58 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
Subject: Asimov and women

From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc
> Yes, Davis Tucker, Isaac Asimov does come off as being
> chauvinistic toward women.  He declares himself to be a former
> chauvinist, now reformed, but what this amounts to, as far as I
> can tell, is:
>
> Women are so cute, and cuddly, and mysterious, and I just want to
> kiss them all!....(and they're smart, too).

I would hardly call Asimov's character Susan Calvin a "cute and
cuddly" woman!  So, at least if Asimov is a "former chauvinist" then
it doesn't always carry over into his s.f.

                    William LeFebvre
                    Department of Computer Science
                    Rice University
                    <phil@Rice.arpa>
                    or, for the daring: <phil@Rice.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 05:47:38 PDT
From: lah@ucbmiro.Berkeley.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Charles DeLint

Ok, since nobody's contradicted it yet, I will.  DeLint's first book
was *not* HARP OF THE GREY ROSE, though the two stories are rather
alike (minor SPOILER WARNING): Protagonist lives in ordinary generic
Britishy village, events conspire to plunge protagonist into GREAT
ADVENTURES, where s/he meets strange allies, discovers s/he has
mysterious latent powers, and there is a battle with unspeakable
evil.  Despite the sardonic tone of that last, his stuff is VERY
GOOD.  Bibliography follows:

[miscellaneous stuff published by his own press, Triskell, including
the first of the Grey Rose stories]

"The Fane of the Grey Rose", SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS IV (A. Offutt,
    ed.) Zebra, 1979

THE RIDDLE OF THE WREN (Ace, 6/84) [This is the first book]

MOONHEART (Ace, 10/84) [My personal favourite]

THE HARP OF THE GREY ROSE (Donning/Starblaze, 3/85) [Horrible
    edition, good book.  Why must Donning persist in covering their
    books with processed orange peel?]

MULENGRO: A ROMANY TALE (Ace, 10/85) [Would be his best, but for
    much violence -- he makes it unfortunately necessary to the
    atmosphere.  Very suspenseful; couldn't put it down.]

I think he's great stuff.  His writing style gets better, tighter,
cleaner all the time, though he persists in starting slowly.

Can't wait for more!

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: hplabsc!oday@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicki O'Day)
Subject: Re: Trying to remember a book title
Date: 21 Oct 85 20:07:49 GMT

The book you are looking for about a coin that grants wishes is
called Half Magic, by Edward Eager.

He is one of my favorite children's authors, and wrote six or seven
other books in the same style as Half Magic.  Some others are:
Knight's Castle, Seven Day Magic and Magic By the Lake.  The
children in his books are very believable (they are childish,
instead of being like little adults), and the stories have a
humorous style.  Eager (and his characters) are admirers of Edith
Nesbit, another great writer of books with magic.  His books are
similar to hers, but easier for kids to read because they are set in
a more recognizable present.

Vicki O'Day
hplabs!oday

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: FAR FROM HOME:  collection of short stories by Walter Tevis
Date: 22 Oct 85 03:45:57 GMT

     SF fans will most likely remember Tevis for THE MAN WHO FELL TO
EARTH, or possibly MOCKINGBIRD.  Movie fans will remember THE
HUSTLER, based on Tevis's earlier (mainstream) novel.  His stories
were painted from a palette of greys, mostly dark, with an
occasional flash of light or bright color.

     FAR FROM HOME is a collection of stories, set near and far
away, all with SF or fantastic elements.  This isn't a book for a
single sitting, not so much because it's depressing, but because
there's so little variety between the tales.  And the older, harder
SF stories are uniformly predictable.

     Tevis passed away recently; there will be no more of his dark
prose, dammit.  He was never very prolific, and this may be all the
short fiction that could be brought together.  It has become a
eulogy for a writer far more powerful than this collection suggests.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: shark!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Amber
Date: 20 Oct 85 11:09:05 GMT

robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>> Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked
>> Corwin's pattern and then destroyed it.  First of all, to walk
>> Corwin's pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie
>> his descendant), in which catagory only Merlin falls.
>
>Why assume that Rinaldo walked the pattern at all? If my memory
>serves me, he is never shown walking through Shadow; he draws
>Trumps and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who
>have never walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps
>while still at the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos,
>Chapter 1).

Sorry, but at that time Merlin was an Initiate of the Logrus.  I
suspect from hints in Courts of Chaos that a Trump is impossible
without intimate knowledge of the Pattern or the Logrus, and that
Rinaldo may be an Initiate.  It may also be that there are other
ways to become a shadow walker, perhaps by using a magic ring or
some such thing?  In any case, Rinaldo shadow-walks in pursuit of
Merlin (ok, so anyone can shadow walk by following a true
Shadowwalker).  But Rinaldo also draws trumps of places prepared as
traps, and this indicates that he can find or create things in
Shadow.  I suspect he would have to get there somehow to do the
trump; Merlin seems to have this limitation.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 21 Oct 1985 09:22:25-PDT
From: tillson%latour.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Feminist/Non-sexist SF & Fantasy

Mary,

In my opinion, the best writer of feminist/non-sexist SF and fantasy
is a man!  I am referring to Samuel Delaney.  I especially liked his
Neveryona series (Neveryona, Tales of Neveryona, and Flight From
Neveryona).  It is fine feminist fantasy; while I was reading it I
had to keep checking the cover to convince myself that it was not
written by a women!  I also really enjoyed Dhalgren and his latest,
Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sands.  No flames, please, - I
realize that Delaney is not to everyone's taste.  He can be verbose
and has never felt obliged to stick to traditional forms of fiction.
He IS very non-sexist, whether one likes his literary style or not
(I do!).

Other feminist/non-sexist authors you might enjoy: Elizabeth Lynn,
Vonda Macintyre, Ursula Leguin, and Johanna Russ.  If you haven't
discovered these fine writers already, I will gladly recommend
titles for you.

One last note: I am an avid reader of Marion Zimmer Bradley.  I do
not consider her radical feminist works non-sexist because of her
often derogatory attitude towards her male characters.  This is
especially true of her most recent book, Warrior Woman, which read
like a feminist version of Gor.  (I read it and enjoyed it anyway.
Took it with the same grain of non-sexist salt that I take with H.
Rider Haggard and Robert Heinlein's (rather sexist) writing.)  It
just goes to show that the sexist shoe fits as badly on the other
foot.

/phae

------------------------------

From: andrews@yale.ARPA (Thomas O. Andrews)
Subject: Feminist SF and S. Delany
Date: 21 Oct 85 18:42:13 GMT

>Sorry to say, I can't think of many male sf author that don't have
>a Boy Scout's view of either the opposite sex or any kind of sex.
>However, I do think that Samuel R. Delaney has never written
>``sexist chaff''.

   I read Delany's _Triton_ this summer, and was impressed with his
frank portrait of a male chauvinist.  I'm not sure if a feminist
could stomach the book, because the main character is such a
bastard, but I found that he was a believable bastard.  It's an
unpleasant book which attacks many male self-deceptions that lead to
chauvinism. At times, I was suprised at the similarity between this
person and myself, and at other times, I loathed him.  Any other
perspectives?
                                              Thomas Andrews

------------------------------

From: Eyal mozes  <eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 11:30:18 -0200
Subject: Star Trek novels, and a journal recommendation

> One of the Star Trek novels, Price of the Phoenix by [two women
> authors whose names escape me], deals with the problem of
> identical copies of a person coexisting

The authors are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath.

I'm in the middle of it now (so you needn't be afraid of spoilers
:-), and it is definitely worth reading. It has a great plot, it
really brings to life the characters of Kirk and Spock, and it is
also thought-provoking on more than one level - it deals with the
"duplication" problem, and also raises interesting questions about
the validity of the "Directive of Non-Interference".

I read one review which claims that the Star Trek novels by Marshak
and Culbreath are among the best SF novels written in recent years,
and are better than the TV series in terms of profound,
thought-provoking ideas.  Other Star Trek novels by the same authors
are The Fate of the Phoenix, Triangle, and The Prometheus Design
(which, according to the reviewer, is not as great as the other
three, but still very good). I bought all four novels in a recent
visit to the USA, and now finally got around to reading them.

The review appeared in a journal I highly recommend: Aristos - The
Journal of Esthetics. It is a bimonthly 6-page journal, containing
articles and reviews about all branches of art, including music,
literature, the visual arts and the performing arts. It is
beautifully designed, and reviews of the visual arts are always
illustrated by good photographs. It's editorial policy is "to
champion art which projects the best of Man and his universe,
appeals to the best and finest in Man and, therefore, provides for
many of us the emotional fuel we need in order to live". It has one
SF reviewer; in the past, in addition to the review of Marshak and
Culbreath, he also published an article about Verne and Wells, an
article about Heinlein, and a review of Hogan's Voyage from
Yesteryear. Their address is:

                        Aristos
                        P. O. Box 1105
                        Radio City Station
                        New York, NY 10101

Eyal Mozes
BITNET:          eyal@wisdom
CSNET and ARPA:  eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA
UUCP:            ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!moews_b@caip.rutgers.edu (david moews)
Subject: Re: want norse gods book title
Date: 21 Oct 85 22:21:15 GMT

> slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes:
>>gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes:
>>I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a
>>modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing
>>to death, I think.)  He's carried across the Bifrost where they're
>>getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost
>>Giants.  He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb...  I
>>thought it was a good read when I was 14, and I'd like to try it
>>again.
>
> I think you are refering to one of the sections in The Compleat
> Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (Ballantine
> Books).  It is the first story and is called "The Roaring
> Trumpet".

     Well..."The Roaring Trumpet" doesn't exactly match this
description.  In "The Roaring Trumpet," the hero is transferred into
an alternate world by some philosophical mumbo-jumbo, and only then
meets the Norse gods: he does not meet the gods in this world, and
they do not then carry him across the Bifrost bridge.  Also, there
was no atomic bomb used in "The Roaring Trumpet." Unfortunately, I
can't think of any other book that might fit the description.

------------------------------

From: ptsfb!djl@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Re: want norse gods book title
Date: 21 Oct 85 19:03:06 GMT

>gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes:
>I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a
>modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing
>to death, I think.)  He's carried across the Bifrost where they're
>getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost
>Giants.  He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb...

Try "The Day of the Giants" by Lester del Rey 1959. The copy I have
is an Airmont paperback published in 1964.

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

From: hp-lsd!steven@caip.rutgers.edu (steven)
Subject: want norse gods book title
Date: 21 Oct 85 17:55:00 GMT

I think the book was by del Rey and was titled either "Day of the
Giants" or "Twilight of the Gods" or some permutation thereof.  I
thought the pseudo-technological dwarves were fun.  They could
perform chemical analyses by taste, easily separate elements with
handmade gizmos and pressure weld with their bare hands, but
couldn't even drill a straight hole in a gun barrel.

                            Steven Sharp

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people who sent in
similar information:

Lynne C. Moore (Moorel@Eglin-Vax.arpa)
Bill Richard (x!wjr@caip.rutgers.edu)
]

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories 10/5
Date: 21 Oct 85 18:39:57 GMT

>>But this was a FARCE.  Different rules apply.
>>                                     Sue Brezden
>
>Here, we get into the murky ground of artistic intent, of knowing
>what was in the producer/director's mind.  I agree, it was a FARCE.
>The question is, was it *meant* to be?  I don't think so, though
>I'm willing to listen to arguments supporting that position.

Afraid we'll only know that by asking Spielberg.  My contention that
it *was* meant to be is backed up by the sheer mass of silliness in
the thing.  Surely even Spielberg knows that aluminum cans aren't
attracted by a magnet?  And the characters were obvious broad,
comical types.  Spielberg is not that heavy-handed with characters
ordinarily--whatever his other faults.

>My responses are clouded by the perception that for many people,
>that's all SF is -- a farce.
>Jim Brunet

I find that painful, also.  Especially when my mother or father
looks at the cover of the book I'm reading and says something like
"Still reading that trash?"  Sigh.  But I also know people who were
drawn into SF by such farces.  We have to laugh at
ourselves--heartily and often.
                                     Sue Brezden
                                     ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 17:42 CDT
From: Kenneth_Wood <kwood%ti-eg.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Oct 20 episode of Amazing Stories.

Did I miss something entirely, or was this the worst half hour of
"SF" ever to appear on TV (I sorted liked the previous episodes, so
I'm not attacking the series, just this episode). I believe that if
"Alamo Jobe" had been submitted to ANY SF magazine under a different
author's name (and hopefully even under the Spielberg name) it would
have been rejected out of hand. What plot! What character
development (notice how Jobe learned important lessons about life as
he enriched the lives of those he encountered!). And suspence!! How
did he get to the future? What was in the message? Did he make it
back?

One can only hope that this episode is not indicative of the
episodes to come....

ken wood

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Oct 85 1037-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #416
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 416

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brin & Hubbard & Rucker & Norton &
                     Zelazny (2 msgs) & Star Trek (3 msgs) &
                     Feminist Authors (4 msgs),
             Television - Amazing Stories,
             Miscellaneous - Typos & Quote Source Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Brin
Date: 22 Oct 85 16:13:51 PDT (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        Just bought and read Brin's 'Postman'.  I'll reserve
discussion of the book until more have read it.  I will state that
it is a very good story, not as good as Startide Rising, but real
good.
        Has anybody gotten to the new Heinlein or Hogan books yet ?

        Dave

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 85 17:27:16 PDT (Tuesday)
From: RPOLLARD.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #408

Do the fiction books that L.Ron Hubbard writes have anything to do
with Scientology ?

I was wondering if his fiction is really his "prediction"?

(The rhyme was unintened)
                                Rich

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: MASTERS OF SPACE AND TIME and THE MEANING OF LIFE by Rudy
Subject: Rucker
Date: 22 Oct 85 03:47:33 GMT

     MASTERS OF SPACE AND TIME concerns two scientists who manage to
futz with the laws of the Universe, and their comic adventures as
they lose and save the world.  Fun, with some interesting bits on
the nature of reality.

     THE MEANING OF LIFE is about a young man during the early
sixties, and his pursuit of booze, good times, pranks, the Meaning
of Life, and getting laid.  This starts out as a mainstream novel,
but the SF elements (some cliched, some cute) become more pronounced
as the novel progresses.  It turns out the main character has some
very pressing reasons to investigate the Meaning of Life.

     In both books, Rucker's prose is invisible, which is usually
the best thing one can say about a writer's style.  There are some
nifty ideas, too.  Rucker does some philosophizing about reality,
what it means to change it, and what it means for it to change, and
what it means to be stuck with it.  Two fairly good light reads.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

From: osu-eddie!francis@caip.rutgers.edu (RD Francis)
Subject: Re: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 22 Oct 85 00:37:26 GMT

>   Andre Norton, "Daybreak: 2250 AD" (or some such date)

I believe this book was re-released as _Star_Man's_Son_ -- Norton
has a number of other books that fall in this category, but I can't
remember most of their names at the moment.

RD Fozz Francis
..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!francis or francis@osu-eddie.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1985 08:09:21-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Amber

Since creating a Pattern causes a genetic change in the creator,
merely being of the blood of a house of Chaos shouldn't do any good.
The implication, repeated throughout the first set of books, is that
you must be descended from the creator of the Pattern so that you
will get the proper 'resonance'.

------------------------------

From: hou2g!scott@caip.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K)
Subject: Re: Amber (NOT a spoiler)
Date: 22 Oct 85 19:48:33 GMT

Why the hell does an article with the seemingly innocuous title
"Amber", which actually discusses Trumps of Doom, not have A GODDAMN
SPOILER MARKING ON IT?

Just because YOU have read the book doesn't mean the rest of the
world has.

Me?  I'm waiting for the sequels to come out.  If I hadn't had the
first five books to read in a row, I would have been awful pissed at
Zelazny.  Who enjoys a novel that ends practically in the middle of
a sentence?
                                Scott J. Berry
                                ihnp4!hou2g!scott

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!gt3403b@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: re: Price of the Phoenix
Date: 24 Oct 85 01:37:01 GMT

Marshak & Culbreath also wrote TRIANGLE, a novel involving the "New
Humans" that were mentioned in the novelization of Star Trek: TMP.

I thought the PHOENIX series was very good.  They did a nice job of
exploring the problems and paradoxes of body duplication, morality
and the Prime (Non-interference) Directive.  I thought the
characters were handled rather well, as well.

In the Star Trek series & novels, you rarely get to see exactly what
makes a Starship Captain special.  People are aware of the fact that
due to the communications lag between a starship and it's base, a
starship Captain has to be able and is *required* to handle tricky
situations (often involving possible war) on his own as the only
representative of the Federation on hand.  However, this is rarely
brought out in either the novels, series, or movies.

You can see why they don't put just anybody in command of starship
because if he screws up, the Federation may find itself out an ally,
port, treaty, or in a war.

In the PHOENIX series, you get to see the characters (heroes and
"villains" alike) functioning at their limits in near-impossible
circumstances.  The glitter gets torn off, so to speak, and you get
to see what kind of people they really are.  So, it's a very tense
and intense book and atmosphere, but given the story, it's
definitely justified.  It's also noteworthy that the "villain",
Omne, turns out to be someone you can admire.

Even considering the fact Morshak and Culbreath shatter the Star
Trek universe (bend would definitely be an understatement here), I'd
consider the PHOENIX series (along with Diane Duane's books) the
best ST novels out there.

Ray Chen
gitpyr!chen
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 12:25 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Price of the Phoenix

amqueue: Please, No!  If I were Jacqueline Lichtenberg or Joan
Winston, I would sue!  You're probably thinking about Star Trek
Lives! a non-fiction book about the ST phenomenon.  Jacqueline is
best noted in ST fiction for her Kraith fanzine series.  Joan also
wrote The Making of ST Conventions.

The Phoenix books (Price of and Fate of) were written by Sondra
Marshak and Myrna Culbreath.  They also wrote The Prometheus Design,
and perhaps a few another ST novel or two.  Fandom is remarkably
divided on the subject of whether these books are great literature
or trash, but my vote is strongly for the latter.  They also edited
two pro books of ST short stories, New Voyages I and II, which
caused a lot of flack from the authors whose stories were edited.

Lisa Wahl
Star Trek Welcommittee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 14:08 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Price of the Phoenix

Sigh.  Price of the Phoenix was written by Sondra Marshak and Myrna
Culbreath.  Anne Quint probably thought that Jacqueline Lichtenberg
and Joan Winston wrote the book because Lichtenberg, Winston and
Marshak wrote Star Trek Lives!, published in 1974?  Jacqueline has
never written a professional trek novel.  Before doing the gen/sime
books, she created an elaborate offshoot of Star Trek called Kraith,
which thirty or so authors have written subsidiary stories for over
the years.

Apart from the literary merits of Price of the Phoenix, Marshak and
Culbreath were not highly thought of in trek circles, although they
may have redeemed themselves by now.  They edited two collections of
fan fiction, Star Trek: The New Voyages, I and II.  I do not know
the truth of the matter, but at least three of the authors of
stories they printed report that (1) their stories were altered for
publication, without their permission, and/or (2) they were not paid
(and remember that ST:NV sold a lot of copies).

Lubkin

[Moderator's Note: Thanks to the following people who also sent in
similar information:

e.c.leepr (mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu)
Susan Brown (utflis!brown@caip.rutgers.edu)
]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 85 07:27:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: female authors, feminist works

>From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
>Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
>a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
>had a chance to read any of those books.

Well, that's true; however, I don't really think the Gor books are
what the original requestor had in mind.  The society of Gor is
*extremely* male-dominated.  I read the first 2 or 3 of these when
they came out, and thought they were written tongue-in-cheek, but
gradually came to the conclusion that they weren't; this is one case
where I believe the author really *is* saying what his characters
say.

My recommendation for an excellent feminist novel is _Native_Tongue_
by Suzette Haden Elgin.  Elgin's Ozark Trilogy
(_Twelve_Fair_Kingdoms_, _The_Grand_Jubilee, and
_And_Then_There'll_Be_Fireworks_) also have very strong female
protagonists (and are a lot of fun, to boot!)

                             marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 1985 10:23:30-EDT
From: jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: feminist SF....

> From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
> Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
> a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
> had a chance to read any of those books.

Yeah, I'd say that "radically different" is proabably an appropriate
description, but Norman's approach is NOT likely to be appreciated
by most feminists! Hardcore chauvinists, maybe....

> From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly)
> You might check out a couple of collections of SF by women that
> came out a few years back: "Women Of Wonder" and "More Women Of
> Wonder."  I'm not sure about the name of the second collection.
> Both were available in paperback a few years ago.

I believe both titles are correct, and I think they were both edited
by Pamela Sargent (thought this might help you find them). Another
collection along the same lines was "Millennial Women" edited, I
think, by Virginia Kidd. (Confirmation, anyone?)

Regards,
Jeff Rogers
jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 Oct 85 09:17:01-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #409
To: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA

>Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
>a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
>had a chance to read any of those books.

"Different" is the operative word.  As in "nobody else gets away
with such sexist trash".  In all fairness, the first book is
excellent and doesn't foreshadow his future treatment of women.
I've heard that the first seven are good and the last thirty-odd are
trash.  (I read a random sample in the teens and twenties (three of
them), and it really took some arm twisting for a friend to convince
me to read the first one).

Evan Kirshenbaum
ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI
UUCP: {ucbvax|decvax}!decwrl!glacier!evan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 13:28 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Gor and women, Female authors with 'male' names

> From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
> * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr.
> For a man, Tiptree sure writes strong female characters well.  I
> also enjoy the upbeat endings that his novels always have.

Sorry, someone just said 'James Tiptree Jr.' (previous issue) was a
woman--do we know (on "authority") who is correct?

> * Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton
> Another male writer who espouses feminist views.  His female
> characters are also very well written.

She has been my favorite sf author for about 26+ years (she authored
my first sf book).  I believe she also wrote under the name of
Andrew North (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) for a while as
well.

> Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
> a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
> had a chance to read any of those books.

Sorry, Commodore Perry, if I were a feminist or wanted female
characters portraying women as something other than property, the
Gor series would be low (very!) on my list of reading.  Please bear
with me, I've not read a Gor book since 1977 or 1976.  I read the
first 4 or 5 books in the series and a few others later.  (I wanted
to see if they had improved since I had last read them).  John
Norman and the Gor books stick vividly in my mind because prior to
reading them, I had never read material which I had considered as
pornographic before [yes, I've read Ovid's _Metamorphoses_, and
Heinlein's _Glory Road_, but not _Playboy_, et al.  Please remember,
I had a conservative upbringing and led (lead?) a very sheltered
life!].  In a way, (and considering my age at the time, etc) they
were fun, in part--but I also found them depressing!  My comments
ranged, in the 2nd & following books, from "I've got to finish this
book to see how the hero solves this--Norman must have some twist to
the end, NO hero is that stupid, that consistently" to "Norman must
have some weird ideas about women to portray them consistently as
'slaves waiting for their master to fullfil them--even the free
women secretly want to be slaves'".
    As I recall his characters and society were relatively
consistent (for the ones I read), and I will admit thinking "oh,
that's an interesting premise" or "that woman doesn't fit his mold
[but she did, later]", but only those generic comments come to
mind--not the specifics as with his characterizations of the hero
and the women.  Please feel free to 'educate' me if I have missed
something, and am putting Norman's Gor books down unnecessarily.
                                     Roz

------------------------------

From: pyuxa!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (B E Nemeth)
Subject: Re: "Alamo Jobe" (AMAZING STORIES)
Date: 23 Oct 85 15:48:26 GMT

All I can say is that like everyone else, I'm very, very
disappointed in this series!  I expected so much more, and got even
less!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 10:56:29 PDT
From: Pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Typos

I noticed recently an impressive typo on the back cover of \Tactics
of Mistake/, a novel in the Childe Cycle by Gordon Dickson.  The
back cover talks all about this guy Donal Graeme and how he has this
new style of soldier in mind and how he's going to change the known
universe with it.  It mentions Donal Graeme as the protagonist
several times.

There's just one problem with all this: Donal Graeme is the hero of
the book \Dorsai!/, which takes place 200 years later!  Cletus
Grahame is the central character of \Tactics of Mistake/; he's
Donal's great-grandfather...

        Pavel

------------------------------

Date: Thu 24 Oct 85 09:24:26-EDT
From: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek Question

I have been trying to remember where in Star Trek, shows or movies,
Kirk said something to the effect: "We all have to take a chance,
especially if one is all we have".  It has been driving me nuts
trying to remember that line for some reason, and I don't have a VCR
or anything to search.  My first guess is "Tommorow Is Yesterday"???
Anyone have a confirmation?  Thanx.

Cheers,
Gern

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Oct 85 1106-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #417
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 26 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 417

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Bova & Shutes & Tepper &
                          Zelazny (2 msgs) & 
                          Feminist Authors (3 msgs) &
                          End of the World Stories (4 msgs),
                  Television - The Max Headroom Show

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1985 18:34:38 EDT
From: Michael Caplinger <mike%bambi@mouton.ARPA>
Subject: short review of Ben Bova's PRIVATEERS

Ben Bova used to write some OK books.  I thought his zenith was
MILLENNIUM [not to be confused with Varley's book of the same name]
- a novel with good characters and a well-thought-out, technically
smooth plot.  Who could forget the pacifist Air Force commander,
Chet Kinsman, and his successful revolution against both the USSR
and the United States?

Now, along comes PRIVATEERS - another offering in the endless stream
of blatant pro-defense ranting by SF writers (the other big offender
here is Jerry Pournelle).  PRIVATEERS is, quite simply, a terrible
book.  Basic plot: in a few decades, the Russians have succeeded in
building the ABM defense that the US was too short-sighted, and have
completely taken over the industrialization of space and most world
trade, while the US has become a giant, coal-burning slum subsisting
only on agrarian labor.  A few countries (like Japan) are struggling
to make it in space against the Russian stranglehold, with little
success.

I'll stop here, the title gives the entire plot away.  The
characters are just awful.  We have the incredibly competent US
expatriot who risks his life, his company's existence, and the whole
free world for his love for a young, beautiful girl; a whole
collection of evil Russians led by an ultimately evil young
commissar (who is also after the girl); and a wimpy pacifist woman
US president who still harbors desire for Our Hero.

If you read Bova's COLONY, you'll recognize most of these characters
(except it was terrorists there, not Russians).  Unbelievably,
PRIVATEERS is even worse than COLONY was.  Unless you're one of
those people who holds your breath for the next sequel to THERE WILL
BE WAR (Pournelle's war story "collection" soapbox) skip PRIVATEERS.

Kind of a shame.  It's surprising that the person who wrote
MILLENNIUM wrote this too.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.arpa
ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

From: ecn-pc!mdm@caip.rutgers.edu ( Mike D McEvoy)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF
Date: 18 Oct 85 18:52:40 GMT

>Let's not forget Nevil Shutes book On the beach.  This was one of
>the first classics of the after the destruction type.  It deals
>with the situation as encountered by an American submarine on duty
>at the start of the War.  Both the movie and the book are
>excellent.
>                                       Bob...

Arg...  Both the movie and the book may have been good from a
literary standpoint, but from a standpoint of technical accuracy
they were a disaster.  Typical doomie viewpoints that ignored little
things like the short half life of fallout, etc. Even at that time,
we had a fairly good understanding of the true effects of a nuclear
war (at least high level effects of radiation).

Literary license has never been a valid excuse for gross
technical/scientific errors.  No Flame intended to you Bob, it's
just that authors who practice their craft should keep their facts
straight - it does a dis-service to write "hard" science fiction
from a position of authority and call it science fiction.  Fantasy
is a much better label.
                                Big Mac

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: WIZARD'S ELEVEN by Sheri S. Tepper
Date: 22 Oct 85 14:45:29 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The son of Mavin Manyshaped is back. Let the Players of the True
  Game beware.

  A giant stalks the mountains. The Shadowpeople gather by the light
  of the moon. The Bonedancers raise up armies of the dead. And the
  Wizard's Eleven sleep, trapped in their dreams. Players, take your
  places.  The Final Game begins."

This is the third book of the "True Game" series, the other two
being KING'S BLOOD FOUR (which I reviewed last time) and NECROMANCER
NINE.  The world in these books is full of people with talents, and
there are hundreds and hundreds of talents recognized. The story is
told by Peter, a shapechanger, who is 17 (he was 15 in the first
book). Peter possesses a set of gamepieces, each player of which
contains the persona of a very old Talent. He is one of a small
number of Gameplayers who has learned a sense of justice, and he is
opposed by Huld, a Demon, who has designs on making himself a world
power. Peter's association with the game pieces and his opposition
to Huld is brought to a conclusion in the book, and we learn quite a
bit more about how Peter's world is related to our own.

All three of the books are very well crafted. The stories unfold in
a pleasing, comfortable manner, and the world is believable, not one
that was hastily put together so that the characters would have
someplace to act. Peter is a likeable character: he is good-natured,
but he has his foibles too. Further, he acts "in character".

I found myself quite interested in what's going on, but I seldom had
the "I can't put the book down" feeling I get when a story is really
gripping.  That's not necessarily a shortcoming, of course.

I would classify the book as serious fantasy; by this I mean that
the characters have powers that one typically finds in fantasy
novels, but that (1) there is a pattern to the talents, and (2)
there's a connection between this "fantasy" world and our own
mundane world, and this link is one of the underlying themes of the
series.

I give this book and the series 3.0 stars (very good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: sphinx.UChicago!paws@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Smith)
Subject: Re: Amber
Date: 23 Oct 85 17:19:18 GMT

>  and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have
>  never walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while
>  still at the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter
>  1).
>               Robert Plamondon
>               {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert

  Yes, but you must have walked the Logrus to do so.  Merlin says
(in one of his conversations with Bill) that one must be an initiate
of either the pattern or the Logrus to draw trumps.  Merlin even
says that the person who drew his "Trumps of Doom" (ie. Rinaldo) WAS
an initiate of either the pattern or Logrus because the Trumps he
drew were too good to have been done by someone who was simply from
a nearby shadow of Amber or the Courts.

Randy Smith
UUcp:  . . . ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!paws
Arpa:  dvlp.dilvish%uchicago.mailnet@mit-multics.arpa
CSnet: randy@uchicago.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 1985 08:22:11-EDT (Thursday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Amber

Rinaldo does indeed walk through Shadow, specifically when he meets
Merlin on the way to the Ghost Wheel and later drags him off to the
cave.  Since he had no way of knowing where the Wheel was, he
couldn't have drawn a trump for it, but would have had to have
followed Merlin's trail.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 22 Oct 1985 15:35:26-PDT
From: goldenberg%istari.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Ruth Goldenberg)
Subject: feminist sf/fantasy for Mary Malmros

Previous replies have mentioned most of the feminist (or non-sexist)
authors I'd recommend: Ursula LeGuin, Panshin's Rite of Passage,
Joanna Russ, James Tiptree, and John Varley. Another author is Kate
Wilhelm. In case it hasn't been mentioned, add "Dreamsnake" by Vonda
MacIntyre (spelling?) to your list.

I recommend all of Tiptree, but I was especially taken with a story
called (approx.) "The Women Men Never See", about a woman and her
daughter who run off with aliens secretly visiting the earth. When
the woman is asked how could she and her daughter stand the thought
of spending the rest of her life with alien and strange creatures,
she replies to the man who asked, "That's nothing. We're used to
it." As 10 other people will have undoubtedly pointed out by now,
Tiptree is a pen name for a woman author. (And Andre Norton is also
a woman.)

I strongly second/third/whatever the recommendations for Joanna
Russ.  I think you should start with a (very) short story she wrote
called "When It Changed." It's the most powerful short story I ever
read. Even on the nth (n>10) reading, it packs an enormous emotional
punch. For me, that short story is a better comment on the gender
differences issue then anything else I've read. It hits me a lot
harder than LeGuin's "Left Hand of Darkness".

If you like "When It Changed", try "The Female Man", a novel partly
related to the society described in the short story. Another work by
Russ I especially like is "Picnic on Paradise."

have fun,
reg

------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy M. Smith)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 22 Oct 85 17:24:18 GMT

> Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
> a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
> had a chance to read any of those books.

I read a couple of the Gor novels while waiting for a Greyhound in
Mojave (in other words, I was desperate). My impression of his
attitudes towards women was that it would be rather hard to be much
less feminist. By comparison Phyllis Schlafly is a flaming liberal.
As an example, he seems to believe that a women's deepest desire is
to be a slave to a man. Not having read all the books I can't vouch
for all that he's said but I suspect the rest are similar.

Guy Smith

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 23 Oct 85 21:07:36 GMT

> James Tiptree, Jr., SHOULD write strong female characters, if
> anyone can, since he is the pseudonym of Alice Sheldon.  (We all
> fall into this trap; I even used "his" name in a novelty item I
> did in OMNI four years ago-- "Science Fictional Table of
> Elements.")
> arlan andrews, analog irregular

Look, being female does NOT guarantee that one can write strong
female characters!!  Nor does being male preclude the ability to
write strong female characters!

Now, if anyone wants a flame session, just for fun, we can cite
examples of female authors who write lousy female characters:

  o Swooning females can be found in great abundance in romance
    novels, such as those marketed by Harlequin (admittedly, most of
    this stuff is probably not science fiction or what we like to
    call fantasy--at least, I'm guessing because you don't think I'm
    going to read them all!  :-) ); many of these are written by
    women

  o Anne McCaffrey--okay, I have to admit to a fondness for Lessa,
    but _Restoree_ was dreadful!  I'm being a little mean to pick on
    one book out of many.

  o A E Van Vogt's female characters are only really bad when he
    collaborated with his wife--I wonder what her influence was on
    this.

(Yes, call me ignorant!  But enlighten me with your opinions!)

In addition, many protagnists authors wrote about mostly male (C. L.
Moore, Leigh Brackett, Andre Norton (at least her early
stuff))--many of these stories today might be written with a female
protagnist, but at the time they were written the authors thought,
at least it seems obvious that Moore and Norton thought so, that no
one would take seriously a book by a woman--a female protagnist
would be preposterous.  And the same is true for male authors: I
think today you have more of an opportunity to make a choice about
the gender of your characters--they don't have to translate into

                strong, carries a sword  ==> male

And, well, maybe this is too late, but if I've insulted your
favorite author: look, I read the stuff, didn't I?  (And I'll
probably read more too!)

L S Chabot   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot

------------------------------

From: faron!wdr@caip.rutgers.edu (William D. Ricker)
Subject: Re: Man-in-Rubble
Date: 22 Oct 85 17:10:44 GMT

I've enjoyed the End-of-the-World (as-we-know-it) and the
After-the-Fall sub-genres.  One of each that I remeber fondly that
haven't been mentioned here:

Catastrophe: Timestorm, Gordy Dickson
After-the-fall: Var the Stick, Andre Norton
        (Var may be "juvenile"; the hero is.)

William Ricker
wdr@faron.UUCP                                          (UUCP)
decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr                           (UUCP)
allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr  (UUCP)

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x268)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble
Date: 22 Oct 85 06:52:06 GMT

The new book by David Brin " The Postman".  A good SF book and a
great read. Well written.

Oleg Kiselev.
...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!moews_b@caip.rutgers.edu (david moews)
Subject: Re: Man-in-Rubble
Date: 23 Oct 85 20:56:26 GMT

> After-the-fall: Var the Stick, Andre Norton
>       (Var may be "juvenile"; the hero is.)

    "Var the Stick" is by Piers Anthony.  It is part of the
 "Battle Circle" trilogy consisting of:

      Sos the Rope
      Var the Stick
      Neq the Sword

   As far as I know, it is not a juvenile book.

David Moews
...!harvard!h-sc1!moews_b   moews_b%h-sc1@harvard.arpa

------------------------------

From: aesat!dale@caip.rutgers.edu (Dale Groves)
Subject: Re: Man-in-Rubble
Date: 23 Oct 85 13:17:18 GMT

wdr@faron.UUCP (William D. Ricker) writes:
>I've enjoyed the End-of-the-World (as-we-know-it) and the
>After-the-Fall sub-genres.  One of each that I remeber fondly
>that haven't been mentioned here:
>
>Catastrophe: Timestorm, Gordy Dickson
>After-the-fall: Var the Stick, Andre Norton
>       (Var may be "juvenile"; the hero is.)

unless i'm mistaken, i believe Var the Stick part of Piers Anthony's
"Battle Circle" series - Var the Stick, Neq the Sword and Sos the
Rope.  Andre Norton has written Star Man's Son (also published as
Daybreak 2250 A.D.) as an EOTW novel, and perhaps Star Rangers (also
pub. as The Last Planet) as an ATF type.

Dale R. Groves
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!dale

------------------------------

From: glasgow.glasgow!days@caip.rutgers.edu (Judge Dredd)
Subject: Re: The Max Headroom Show
Date: 22 Oct 85 18:28:33 GMT

>      The episode ends with Edison Carter's life in total question.
> But previews of next week's, show the possiblity of the Network
> replacing Carter with one of Brice's computer simulations.

        All in all a pretty good resume, however I have some bad
news. :-(.  When "Max Headroom" came out over here, it appeared to
be a pilot for a series.  However, the series it is a pilot for is
nothing to do with the news-crew.
        I'll try not to give too much away.

A computer simulation of Carters Brain is made with the plan of
using it for news reports. However, due to Carters accident, his
brain is not functioning properly and suffers from a severe speech
impediment. The computer gets thrown out and is found by a DJ for
Channel-7, an extremly low-budget TV company which plays pop -
videos all day. Max ( The computer ) becomes a DJ, and Channel-7
becomes very popular.
        The follow-on series is a program which intersperses
pop-videos with a computer-animated head. It's rather well scripted,
and worth watching, but a bit of a disappointment to anyone
expecting an sf-series.
        What I reckon you will see is the original pilot-film split
into TV-viewer-concious-timeable chunks.

Stephen Day, Comp Sci Dept, University of Glasgow, Scotland
seismo!mcvax!ukc!glasgow!days

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Oct 85 1131-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #418
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 26 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 418

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asimov & Hodgell & Sagan &
                         Star Trek & The Wolf Worlds & 
                         Way Station & Single Sex Societies &
                         Feminist Authors (2 msgs),
                 Comics - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,
                 Films - Threads,
                 Television - Max Headroom,
                 Miscellaneous - SF Con & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaa
Date: 24 Oct 85 00:41:00 GMT

> Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great
> Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong
> place at the wrong time? Or with his smug, egocentric male
> chauvinism toward his daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his
> wife, whom he refuses to name?

It's his ex-wife, which may have something to do with his not naming
her.

>  How about something more substantive - like why in the hell is
> this vignette included in a science history article about the
> discovery of yeast? What does his condescension toward his
> beautiful daughter and his resultant foul aspersions on her
> parentage have anything whatsoever to do with anything that any
> human being besides an Asimov worshipper would want to know?

Many people like Asimov's personal pieces better than the science
articles they precede. I have no doubt that ego enters into it, but
Asimov is just providing what a substantial portion of his audience
is asking for.

> I mean, "unmistakeable Asimovian features" my left hand of
> darkness! Does anyone you know talk about his daughters
> "Jacksonian features" or "Alberryesque features" or "Rospachian
> features"?

No, but I don't see why they shouldn't.

>  How many people do you know who would refer to their daughters in
> print as "gorgeous women"? How many writers have you ever read
> that would say "she was asked to play the role, at sight, in her
> grammar school...", and totally forget that there is no such
> construct as "at sight" (it is correctly "at first sight")?

From the Random House Dictionary:

sight ... 11. at or on sight, immediately upon seeing.

> More questions - how does even the demigod of science fiction, the
> master of prolix spew, get away without having this kind of
> ridiculous, embarrasing drivel of a father slobbering over the
> fact that he actually raised a daughter that ended up looking good
> and going into some sort of social worker program (that he
> not-so-subtly hints at being amusingly disapproving of) edited out
> of his otherwise good and informative article? Why does he think
> that anyone in his right mind or even his left mind would find
> what he has to say about his daughter, her adorable liberal
> tendencies and her Aryan makeup, in any way germane to his article
> about yeast, or even to the more global, meta- fictional point of
> essay-writing?
>
> I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in?

Because people keep telling him that they want to read more of this
stuff.
                        Scott McEwan
                        {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan

------------------------------

From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry)
Subject: New P.C. Hodgell (author of Godstalk)
Date: 24 Oct 85 16:06:02 GMT

Well, that's the good news:
"Dark of the Moon", P.C. Hodgell, Argo Press (Atheneum), 1985,
ISBN 0-689-31171-0

And, yes, it is a sequel to "Godstalk".  I bought it ten minutes
ago, so that's all I know.

The bad news: it's in hardback.  Save your pennies!

For those who haven't encountered Hodgell, I heartily recommend her
first book, "Godstalk".  It's set in Tai-Tastigon, a city so
convoluted that it makes Lankhmar and Sanctuary seem
straight-forward.  The heroine, Jame, is an amnesiac; she begins the
book fleeing, though she knows not what or why.  She also has rather
unusual hands... the fingernails seem to be retractible.  It's a
fascinating book; I'm saying as little as possible to avoid giving
anything away.

Off to Tai-Tastigon again,

Elizabeth Hanes Perry
UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA:  betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Subject: Recent book list...
From: Brent C.J. Britton  <BRENT%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1985 01:06 EDT

>From: hplabsd!faunt@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt)
>This is the books received at OCOH for September, FYI, pulled off
>SCI-FIDO, a SF oriented BBS in Oakland CA, run by Mike Farren.
>Debbie is Debbie Notkin, of LOCUS review fame.
>Sagan, Carl COSMOS
>                          First novel.

  _Cosmos_ is a wonderfull book by Carl Sagan, but it is not a
novel.  The title of Sagan's new -- and first -- novel is _Contact_.
  I just finished it and love it, but more on this later...

                        Brent C.J. Britton
                        Brent%maine.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 12:29 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Harry Mudd

Gossip: Those discussing the Harry Mudd rumors might be interested
to know that one of the ST pro authors has been trying to sell a
Harry Mudd ST novel to Pocket for years.  And had great frustrations
with one of the previous ST editors who kept referring to "Harvey
Mudd."

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 16:32 PDT
From: Hank Shiffman <Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: THE WOLF WORLDS by Allan Cole & Chris Bunch

>From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
>The book is mainly action and adventure, and it has some
>interesting characters. Occasionally the storyline jumps a bit, and
>the first "episode" in the book is a little short and doesn't seem
>to have all that much to do with the other ones. But keep reading.

This is a sequel to the book Sten, which gives the origin of the
major characters.  It's as much fun as Wolf Worlds.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 85 07:55 EDT
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Way Station Question

Recently I received the SF Book Club edition of _Way Station_,
author's name not remembered.  The reason I don't remember is that
my husband idly picked up the book the day it came in and I haven't
seen it without him in tow, since!  What is the book about--can
someone review it without spoiling it?  Why, you ask?  My husband
doesn't like science fiction (exception: Stainless Steel Rat
series), he likes Louis L'Amour and Andy Rooney; he also does NOT
read fiction books much, especially not on a daily basis.  It seems
that everytime he has a few spare minutes, this book is in his hand.
When I ask him what the book is about, I get maybe four words from
him--I guess he's not a 'book reviewer'.  Again, I ask what does
this book have?

If this book has been covered previously in SF-LOVERS, please
respond to me directly, since I must have missed it!

Thanks--Roz (RTaylor@radc-multics)

------------------------------

From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa>
Date: Friday, 25-Oct-85 13:51:01-BST
Subject: mono sex societies

        Question
                For any biologist out there, what's the feasability
of taking genes from two females and combining them together,
replanting them in a ovum and so get birth from the result.  I
realise that only female children could be born this way ( YY
chromsone?) and this leads me to the main thrust of the question.
        What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most )
was done this way since the society would consist entirley of
females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would they
be kept as pets?  revired?, or treated as equals (they would
certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of
society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a
kindly womb donor.)
        Any one know of any stories based on this?
        Any ideas on the fesability, society, role of men.

                ttfn
                andy.
A.COBLEY%DUNDEE@UCL.CS

------------------------------

From: whuts!6243tes@caip.rutgers.edu (STERKEL)
Subject: RE: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 24 Oct 85 18:37:20 GMT

>>      I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy
>> authors and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm
>> sick of sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
>> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.
>> Mary Malmros
> You may already have these, but Ursula Leguin and Joanna Russ are
> the first names to come to mind.  The former is probably my
> favorite author.  The latter is pretty good.  One other book is
> "Native Tongue" by Suzette Elgin.

Another writer is Marion Zimmer Bradley.  She has cranked out
acceptable to very good SF.  In the SF catagoy, she has a series of
books on a "colonized/forgotton/decline to barbarismpainful move to
civilization/special power discovery/rediscovery by earth" planet
called "Darkover".  Some of the Darkover books apparently were
co-authored by member(s) (?) of her fan club (Darkover Society?) (I
am fuzzy on details).  In this group, I recommend Thenarda (sp)
House, a beautiful book on friendship and switching places between
alien cultures.  It is currently available in main line bookstores.

Marion has branched out into fantasy, writing (in her own words) "my
first non-pot-boiler serious bood" "Mists of Avalon", a very large
book on some best seller lists.  It is very rich and consequently a
slow read.  I have had to put it aside for later several times which
is a novel (pun intended) experience for me as I devour the average
SF/Fantasy in 5-6 hours.

Marion also is a frequent contributor to the Thieves world series
Asprin, editor).

Terry
ihnp4!whuts!6243tes

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Asimov and women
Date: 23 Oct 85 12:03:36 GMT

>From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
>I would hardly call Asimov's character Susan Calvin a "cute and
>cuddly" woman!  So, at least if Asimov is a "former chauvinist"
>then it doesn't always carry over into his s.f.
>                       William LeFebvre
>                       Department of Computer Science
>                       Rice University

This is a failing of many male sf-authors (probably including
myself) that the only way they can produce a strong female character
is to create one that behaves more like a man in a man's world.
Admittedly, this does happen in business, but it still remains very
difficult to create a *female* character.  It takes a true genius
like S. Delany.
                                R.Ramsay

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 10:28 pst
From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Truly Bizarre SF Comix

I have just been turned onto a comic book that really piqued my
weird gland, it is called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.  It is just
what it sounds like, a band of four kids who are turtle shaped [with
shells] and trained as Ninja.  Their names are Leonardo,
Michaelangelo, Raphael, and Donatello.  In issue number 5 they find
themselves on another planet [having stepped into the TransMat Beam
at the end of issue 4] helping a Fugitoid [a scientist trapped in a
robot body] escape from 1) the government [who want his TransMat
device to beam bombs onto enemy ships] and 2) the Triceratons [the
enemy].  The boys do a good job in a situation that is completely
out of their league.

The mag is a b&w with interesting art and beautiful dialogue.  I
heartily recommend it.  Check with your local comix dealer and make
your request.  Remember, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!  Oh yes,
there are miniatures and a role playing game out too, but I haven't
seen them.

Jon

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for movie *THREADS*
Date: 24 Oct 85 12:48:48 GMT

lws@hou2d.UUCP writes:
>I am searching for a source for the motion picture *THREADS*.  It
>concerns survival(?) in a post-nuclear world.  I believe it is a
>British Production about 2 or 3 years old, and it was shown on
>Public TV in the NYC area last spring, but has not been shown in
>the NYC area since.
>
>Has this movie been discussed on the net?
>
>Is it available on video tape?

It was repeated here during the week of the anniversary of the
bombing of Hiroshima.

As far as I know it is not available on videotape here. I don't know
about the USA, but that would be depend on the conditions under
which the BBC licensed it to the Public TV Network.

FYI, the BBC showed the notorious 'War Game', directed by Peter
Watkins circa 1964 for the FIRST TIME during the anniversary week.
It seems that they were afraid that the effect of the film would be
to cause mass suicide when it was first made.

It's still a very powerful film, more so than 'Threads' in my
opinion. The gritty B+W documentary look of it helps. It's also
fascinatingly dated. Do see it if you have a chance.  It's been
available on 16mm film for many years, someone may have copied it to
tape.
        Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
        ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 14:09:34 cdt
From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
Subject: Max Headroom, episode 2

In my area (Austin, TX), Cinemax is showing Max one episode per
week, with four showings of the same episode during the week.  The
week begins on Wednesdays, at 6:30PM CDT.

Episode 2 is every bit as interesting as 1, and it includes an
extensive (4 minute) summary of episode 1, which gives you the full
plot, and very little of the `feel.'

Again, I won't give away the plot, except to say that there is more
humor here than in 1.  I especially recommend that the
"man-in-the-rubble" people watch it.  Episode 2 gives some wonderful
characterizations, with one of the bad guys quoting Shakespeare and
calling the other a "Luddite."  The British are clearly aiming at a
more literate/educated market than their American counterparts.

Still excellent computer graphics, including a good example of a
program that is (to some extent) self-debugging.  The action is a
bit slower this time, and there's a truly bizarre bedroom that has
to be seen to be believed.

Alan Wexelblat
WEX@MCC.ARPA

------------------------------

From: orca!ariels@caip.rutgers.edu (Ariel Shattan)
Subject: SF Convention in Portland, OR in November
Date: 23 Oct 85 19:46:43 GMT

OryCon '85
Nov 8-10
Portland Hilton (downtown)

Guest of Honor: Somtow Sucharitkul
Artist Guest of Honor: William Rotsler
Toastmaster: Steven Barnes

Other guests include: David Brin, Dean Ing, Mildred Downey Broxon,
                      Steve Perry, Richard Purtill

Activities include: Panels, Art Show, Dealers' Room, Video, Films,
                    Dances, Masquerade, more.

For more info, write:       OryCon '85
                            P.O. Box 5703
                            Portland, OR 97228
             or call:       (503) 692-3657

This information brought to you by...

Ariel Shattan
Chair
OryCon '85
..!tektronix!orca!ariels

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 13:54:23 cdt
From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
Subject: A different thought about time travel

One of the things that annoys me about time travel (which I haven't
seen mentioned yet) is authors who propose time travel without a
corresponding ability to travel spatially.  It seems to me that time
travel *must* imply spatial (not necessarily space) travel because
if you move in time, then the spot you left from is going to be in a
different spatial location when you stop moving in time.  (That is,
its position will be different w.r.t. the universe.  The planets
still move, the solar system still rotates, the universe still
expands.)  Can anyone think of SF in which time travel was
explicitly separated from spatial travel?  (Replies to me, please.)

Alan Wexelblat
WEX@MCC.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Oct 85 0919-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #419
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 419

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Eager & Norman (2 msgs) &
                     Williams & Feminist Authors (2 msgs),
             Television - Archetypal episodes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Later Asimov
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1985 09:30 EDT

    I feel compelled to rush to the defense of poor (figuritively)
Dr. A. He's been getting quite a lot of bad press on SFL.

Jim Brunet writes,

>Asimov's fiction today is as painful to contemplate as watching a
>great, over-the-hill ballplayer (like Willie Mays?) trying to hang
>on.  Sad.
>
> Finally, the WRITING.  Asimov -- and I do love the man, his
>     early works along with Heinlein's and Norton's juveniles were
>     what brought me into the sf field -- has become a literary 800
>     lb. canary.  Nobody will edit him.  Nobobdy *has* to.  Why
>     should Doubleday bother, when anything he now writes is
>     guaranteed megabucks best-seller?
>
>     His dialogue has gotten excruciating and much of the narrative
>     is dull and plodding.  If you or I had turned in those
>     manuscripts with our names on them, they would have been
>     returned at light-speed, perhaps with a note saying "you have
>     potential, but do join a workshop, okay?"

I believe, that like any writer, Asimov is entitled to hot and cold
spells.  I agree, in part, with what jmb has stated. Asimov has
become a machine of sorts, (Hmmmmm, maybe he's actually been
replaced by a humaniform robot), churning out books upon whatever
subject he's asked. I disagree however, that they're all lousy.
                  **    Mild Spoiler Warning   **

The Foundation's Edge, judged against the backdrop of the original
books of Foundation Trilogy, does come up short. I think the concept
of Gaea was/is an unfortunate idea and I was saddened to read about
the once great mentalists of the 2nd Foundation reduced bickering
children. Asimov does have a tendency to make his characters a
little too smart, and this problem was exaggerated in this novel.
                         ** end spoiler **

I like the Robots of Dawn however....really liked it. Lije Baley
continues to be one of my favorite science fictional characters. I
think this novel even comes out clean in comparison to the earlier
Robot novels, particularly The Naked Sun, which I thought the weaker
of the two earlier ones. Truth is I liked it better than the Naked
Sun, and on par with the Caves of Steel.  The Robot novels do
represent the marriage of science fiction and the mystery, with
which Asimov dabbles, (Murder at the ABA, The Union Club Mysteries).
One of Asimovs strengths is the surprise ending and the R of D had a
good one.

To be fair to Isaac in his declining years, I think that it should
be noted that some of his 'Golden years' stuff were duds or near
duds. Take the 'Stars Like Dust' for example, or the 'God's
Themselves' (yes I know it was later, but really, if you think sex
with robots is weird) . Yes, I would put Foundations Edge well ahead
of each.

Were I to give a rough ranking of some of Asimovs major novels, it
might look something like this;

1) Foundation
2) 2nd Foundation
3) Foundation and Empire
4) Caves of Steel
5) Robots of Dawn
6) Pebble in the Sky/ End of Eternity/Naked Sun
7) Currents of Space
8) Foundations Edge
9) Gods Themselves
10) Stars Like Dust

I have just received from the Sci Fi bookclub, my copy of Robots and
Empire.  Am looking forward to reading it next.

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe@rand-unix.ARPA>
Date: 25 Oct 85 17:16:55 PDT (Fri)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #413

>When I was in the third grade (about 24 years ago) I read a book
>that sort of got me started on science fiction/fantasy.  It
>involved some kids who found an old coin which granted them
>wishes... sort of.  The coin was so old that they had to wish for
>everything twice to get a complete wish, otherwise they only got
>half of what they wished for.

The book you are looking for is "Half Magic" by Edward Eager, and it
has recently been reissued.  Eager is a great children's fantasy
writer and his books are always available in the children's section
at the local public library.  Others are "The Time Garden", "Magic
by the Lake", "Well Magic", and "Knight's Castle".  Two sets of
children are involved, the ones in "Half Magic" and their children
in "Knight's Castle".  Two of the books contain the same scene, one
with the parents-as-children and the other with their
children-as-children.  Several other fantasy authors picked up on
this ploy after Eager: McCaffrey uses it in joining the adult
fiction Pern books to the children's version ("Dragonsinger",
"Dragonsong", "Dragondrums") series, and Jane Louise Curry uses it
in her series about Abaloc.  I love recursive literature.

Christe McMenomy
christe@rand-unix

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Gor (was SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #409)
Date: 24 Oct 85 17:49:36 GMT

>>Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in
>>a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't
>>had a chance to read any of those books.
> "Different" is the operative word.  As in "nobody else gets away
> with such sexist trash".  In all fairness, the first book is
> excellent and doesn't foreshadow his future treatment of women.
> I've heard that the first seven are good and the last thirty-odd
> are trash.  (I read a random sample in the teens and twenties
> (three of them), and it really took some arm twisting for a friend
> to convince me to read the first one).

There are currently only 21 "Gor" novels.  Perhaps a 22nd has just
hit the stands, but nowhere near "thirty-odd".  (List after
signature!)  He's also written the non-Gor books GHOST DANCE,
IMAGINATIVE SEX, and TIME SLAVE.

And Sharon Green (another DAW author) writes novels similar to John
Norman (her books are blurbed as "If you liked John Norman, you'll
love Sharon Green!"
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
John Norman's "Gor" Books:
    1   Tarnsman of Gor          12     Beasts of Gor
    2   Outlaw of Gor            13     Explorers of Gor
    3   Priest-Kings of Gor      14     Fighting Slave of Gor
    4   Nomads of Gor            15     Rogue of Gor
    5   Assassin of Gor          16     Guardsman of Gor
    6   Raiders of Gor           17     Savages of Gor
    7   Captive of Gor           18     Blood Brothers of Gor
    8   Hunters of Gor           19     Kajira of Gor
    9   Marauders of Gor         20     Players of Gor
   10   Tribesman of Gor         21     Mercenaries of Gor
   11   Slave Girl of Gor

------------------------------

From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory J.E. Rawlins)
Subject: Nosy Question #1.
Date: 25 Oct 85 08:57:04 GMT

ecl@mtgzz.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
>And Sharon Green (another DAW author) writes novels similar to John
>Norman (her books are blurbed as "If you liked John Norman, you'll
>love Sharon Green!"

    Ever since i finished the SF Poll the associated Bibliography
has been growing (now up to 310K) and i've been accumulating a fund
of Nosy Questions that, hopefully, knowledgeable netters can help me
with; the above quote sparked the first. It was bruited about that
"Sharon Green" is really a pseudonym for "John Norman" (which is of
course a pseudonym for John F. Lange, Jr.). Anyone know if this is
true or not? (one of my sources told me that Tiptree was only
"uncovered" after some fans lurked at her post office drop and
waited to see who would come pick up the mail.)  BTW, if you think
it unlikely that an author would write through two layers of
pseudonyms, Kenneth Bulmer as "Alan Burt Akers" is writing as "Dray
Prescott".
    I have literally _dozens_ of such questions so i'll try to
minimize net congestion by only asking a few at a time....

Here is the List entry for Norman, could some kind soul supply his
vital statistics and the missing publication dates? Also comments on
my classifications of his works and any classifications of you own
are welcome. (what's "Ghost Dance" about?)

Norman, John [nee [Professor] John F. Lange, Jr. Ph.D.]
        Time Slave [1975] [fantasy, time travel, subjugation of women]
        Ghost Dance
        Imaginative Sex [sf sex manual for people into bondage]
        The Chronicles of Counter-Earth: [Burroughsian sword and
sorcery, sadism, bondage, fetishism, demeaning to women]
                Tarnsman of Gor [1966]
                Outlaw of Gor [1967]
                Priest-Kings of Gor [1968]
                Nomads of Gor [1969]
                Assassin of Gor [1970]
                Raiders of Gor [1971]
                Captive of Gor [1972]
                Hunters of Gor [1974]
                Marauders of Gor [1975]
                Tribesmen of Gor [1976]
                Slave Girl of Gor [1977]
                Beasts of Gor [1978]
                Explorers of Gor
                Fighting Slave of Gor [Jason Marshall I]
                Rogue of Gor [Jason Marshall II]
                Guardsman of Gor [Jason Marshall III]
                Savages of Gor
                Blood Brothers of Gor
                Kajira of Gor
                Players of Gor [1984]
                Mercenaries of Gor

Gregory J. E. Rawlins
gjerawlins%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
gjerawlins@waterloo.csnet
gjerawlins@watmath.uucp Dept. CS, U. Waterloo

[Moderator's Note: The poll referred to is much too large to post in
the digest.  It totals about 100 disk pages!  If anyone wants to FTP
it to read it is: T:<SFL>POLL.TXT at RUTGERS.  No requests for
mailing it will be honored; if you can't get access with FTP you are
out of luck!]

------------------------------

From: unc!cm@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Mosher)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF
Date: 24 Oct 85 17:37:01 GMT

I have not seen mentioned an excellent series of books that came out
fairly recently by Paul O. Williams.  They are about man's comeback
from a nuclear Armegeddon which had pushed the level of society down
to a nomadic tribal culture.  I really enjoyed them.  The titles
are:
        The Breaking of Northwall
        The Ends of the Circle
        The Dome in the Forest
        The Fall of the Shell (my favorite)
        An Ambush of Shadows
        The Song of the Axe (2nd favorite)

I recommend reading them in order.  Although not necessary, it
fleshes out references in subsequent books to create a more solid
feel for the cultural milieu.  They are published by Del Rey.
Enjoy!
                                        Chuck Mosher
                                        !decvax!mcnc!unc!cm

------------------------------

From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: feminist SF....
Date: 25 Oct 85 19:24:52 GMT

It's not hard to explain why Piers Anthony and John Norman both
write such excellent feminist SF.  They are in fact, women.

Anthony is the pen-name for Toni Pearce, who lives in Boise, Idaho.
She started writing under a male name because she felt she was
having trouble getting rejections because she was a woman.

John Norman, alias Norma Johnson has been writing Gor books for
years.  I'm a bit surprised to see postings claiming "John Norman"
as a good male feminist writer since I thought everybody knew this.

I'm probably the millionth person to point this out.

Brad Templeton,
Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Sat 26 Oct 85 02:46:30-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: MZB and feminism.

     Oh goody! MZB as feminist writer is finally revived in SFL.
There is a wonderful bit of MZB trivia I have been waiting for
months to mention, and it is finally time. This entry appeared in
the Fancyclopedia II by Richard Eney in 1959:

     (start of quote) FANNETTES:
          Prime mover for this all-girl fan club was Marion Cox.
     Her club included 50 or more femmefans, such as Carol Mckinney,
     Maril Shrewsbury, Vee Hampton, DEA, and others, but \not/
     Marion Z Bradley, who wrote in the club 00, The Femmizine, for
     Jan '53:

          "Frankly I think it's impossible for women, with no help
     from the 'sterner sex', to do anything in the literary fanzine
     field. Man alone can manage something of strength and talent
     without feminine influence. It may be graceless, even ugly, but
     it will be strong.  Women alone, sans masculine influence,
     impetus, or admiration, produce nothing of worth."

     /Aw, shucks Marion.../ To justify this vigourous opinion the
     club, formed in 1952, ran down in 1953, was revived in mid-1954
     by Honey Wood and Noreen Falasca, and collapsed once more.

(end of quote)
     It amazing how much peoples veiws can change over the years.

     On a related topic, there have appeared many notes slagging
caro.pa@xerox.arpa for his letter in #409 describing Tiptree and
Norton as male, and recommending Gor for its 'radically different'
veiw of women.
     Good God, lighten up a bit!  Any but the most narrow reading
shows this letter is a joke!  It sometimes seems that people cant
recognize humor in the absence of a :-).
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: Archetypal episodes
Date: 24 Oct 85 15:35:24 GMT

        Isn't it funny how the same old themes keep rearing their
heads (ugly or otherwise) in popular sf tv shows. It occured to me
that one could probably "distil" the most typical of these to form a
resulting "gestalt" episode from the essence.
        Take, for example, the following gestalt "Star Trek":

        A mysterious thingie made of energy of a type never before
encountered snares the Enterprise (which of course is made helpless)
and takes it off to a nearby planet. All the command crew beam/are
beamed down and discover a race of child-like innocents who compel
them to stay against their will.
        One of the not-quite-so-young innocents falls in love with
Kirk (as they have a habit of doing) and tells Kirk all she knows
about her race.  Spock raises an eyebrow and says "interesting".
Kirk does some theorizing (which Spock should be doing) and
convinces himself that the entire planet is a computer and the only
way to free his ship (which has by now almost freed itself anyway)
is to talk to it and hopefully make it explode as most of them do
whenever Kirk tries to confound them with his logic.  Spock raises
an eyebrow and says "logical captain". Kirk then goes to a likely
spot and starts to talk to the computer which isn't interested.
        Kirk asks the computer a question ,"WHY?",the computer
responds "WHY NOT?".(Sorry ,wrong series).
        After a few minutes of related waffle the computer is
convinced that Kirk is its creator and gives a thirty second
countdown to its own destruction.  All the crew is beamed up except
for Kirk because a transporter malfunction has occured.(20). Kirk
turns to jelly.(15)...The transporter is made "partially"
functional...(10). Kirks stomach (most of him) is beamed aboard and
split into two identical gut buckets except that they have different
temperaments.  One can't digest too much science..(5). Realising
that having two stomachs in command of a Starship was a
non-functional idea, Spock puts the transporter right and repatterns
the whole of Kirk (1)..(0)..(-1)..Just in time Kirk is beamed aboard
with stomach. The whole planet explodes.
        Kirk is hungry. Spock reminds him of the non-intervention
policy.  Kirk finds a good reason why he interfered and caused so
many megadeaths.  He then makes a witty comment about Spocks ears.
The bridge explodes with laughter. Spock retorts with some logic and
raises an eyebrow quizically.  End Titles.
        The episode wins a HUGO award.

        Lets have some more.....
                                        Andy T.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Oct 85 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #420
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Oct 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 420

Today's Topics:

           Books - McCaffrey (3 msgs) & Simak & Varley &
                   Williams & Zelazny & Story Requests (2 msgs) &
                   Feminist Authors (2 msgs),
           Comics - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,
           Television - Star Trek,
           Miscellaneous - Mono Sex Societies (2 msgs) & Typos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: utflis!chai@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Chai)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy(re: McCaffery)
Date: 25 Oct 85 19:04:40 GMT

>Now, if anyone wants a flame session, just for fun, we can cite
>examples of female authors who write lousy female characters:
>  o Anne McCaffrey--okay, I have to admit to a fondness for Lessa,
>    but _Restoree_ was dreadful!  I'm being a little mean to pick on
>    one book out of many.

Hear! Hear! I've often thought of said book as a Harlequin Romance
in an sf setting.  _Decision on Doona_ is equally horrible: women
are seen as the belong-in-the-kitchen-and-overly-sensitive type.
There was one passage about a little boy describing in detail how
the "native" aliens kill a local beast for food, and his sister
started crying and said something like "Horrible! Horrible!" and ran
to her room.  The mother gave the boy an angry look, rushed after
the girl to comfort her, while father and son looked at each other
in understanding and smiled. Yuck!  But I must point out that
comtemporary McCaffrey, e.g. "Crystal Singer", treats the two sexes
equally. (the two "bad" books are very early McCaffrey)

Henry Chai,
Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto
{watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai

------------------------------

From: unirot!liz@caip.rutgers.edu (Mamaliz )
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy(re: McCaffery)
Date: 26 Oct 85 15:51:48 GMT

McCaffrey wrote Restoree as a spoof.  At least that is what she has
been saying for a number of years.  I think it is a fun spoof, but
then, I do not expect everything I read to mirror my politics.

lizzy

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: McCaffrey and Feminist SF
Date: 26 Oct 85 23:03:46 GMT

Ann McCaffrey has been accused by Henry Chai (and probably others)
of "[writing] Harlequin Romance[s] in an SF setting."  I will not
argue this one way or the other (since I haven't read either of the
panned books), but I would like to point out that the people who
avidly read the Darkover books tend to be devotees of the Pern books
too.  It would be interesting to see McCaffrey together with MZB, K.
Kurtz, Diane Paxton, and Jaqueline Lichtenburg at the same con (but
I'm probably not going....).

Charley Wingate

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Cliff Simak and THE OUTER LIMITS
Date: 26 Oct 85 10:04:23 GMT

> From: hpfcla!mpm      (Mike McCarthy)
>      I believe that the "Outer Limits" episode in question was
> based on the book "The Duplicated Man" by James Blish (or maybe it
> was Murray Leinster).  As I remember, the TV episode was quite
> faithful to the plot in the book.  (I don't remember if the
> endings were the same.)
>      I would be surprised if Clifford Simak EVER wrote anything
> like this book.  His reputation as the "pastoral novelist of SF"
> is no accident.  His style of writing would result in a very
> different novel if he were to start with the same theme of
> "personal duplication".

Sorry, you're wrong. The episode in question, entitled "The
Duplicate Man", was based not on the Blish & Lowndes novel of a
similar title, but on a Clifford Simak short story entitled "Good
Night, Mr. James". If you want to look up this story, it appeared in
the following places:

Galaxy Science Fiction, March 1951
THE OUTER REACHES  (edited by August Derleth)
        [U.S. editions only; in Britain, it's in the
        derivative anthology, THE TIME OF INFINITY.]
THE GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION  (edited by H. L. Gold)
ALL THE TRAPS OF EARTH AND OTHER STORIES  (Simak collection)
        [U.S. editions only; in Britain, it's in the
        derivative collection, THE NIGHT OF THE PUUDLY.
        In fact, in this British edition, the story in
        question was retitled to be the title story.]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: John Varley
Date: 26 Oct 85 10:18:09 GMT

> From: caip!Lubkin
>     By the way, John Varley is also a pseudonym.

Sorry, but you're wrong. John Varley has *used* a pseudonym, Herb
Boehm (only once, for the original magazine appearance of "Air Raid"
because he had another story in the same issue under his real name),
but John [Herbert] Varley is his real name.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: wateng!clelau@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric C.L. Lau)
Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF
Date: 26 Oct 85 18:20:28 GMT

cm@unc.UUCP (Chuck Mosher) writes:
>I have not seen mentioned an excellent series of books that came
>out fairly recently by Paul O. Williams.  They are about man's
>comeback from a nuclear Armegeddon which had pushed the level of
>society down to a nomadic tribal culture.  I really enjoyed them.
>The titles are:
>       The Breaking of Northwall
>       The Ends of the Circle
>       The Dome in the Forest
>       The Fall of the Shell (my favorite)
>       An Ambush of Shadows
>       The Song of the Axe (2nd favorite)

I've also enjoyed this series called the Pelbar Cycle.  The seventh,
and from the looks of the the last, in the series just appeared in
the bookstores up here in Canada.  It's called _The_Sword_of_
Forbearance.  It essentially brings to a climax all the preceding
events and characters.  I wouldn't exactly say that this is a recent
series.  The first book came out about seven years ago I think, I'm
too lazy to check.  All in all it's a good series about the
resurrection of civilization in North America.  The characters are a
bit predictable at times but usually quite interesting.  The main
weakness in the last book is an overabundance of main characters.
If you haven't read any of the previous books it can get
overwhelming but I guess that's true for any closing or last book in
a series.
                        Eric Lau
                        ...!{utcsri|ihnp4}!watmath!wateng!clelau

------------------------------

Date: Sat 26 Oct 85 18:56:22-PDT
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: You! You! In the audience!

Have you read LORD OF LIGHT by Roger Zelazny?

Did you like the ideas? Did you like the setting?  For that matter,
what didn't you like? What would you change?

        Stuart Cracraft
        (cracraft@isi-vaxa)

------------------------------

From: teklabs!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood)
Subject: Anybody remember this one?
Date: 24 Oct 85 18:23:31 GMT

When I was getting into Science Fiction as a kid in the late 50's,
early 60's, I was reading a book called "THE OTHER SIDE OF HERE".
Author not remembered.

It had to do with alternate worlds/other dimensions.

Does anyone remember this one?  Author??

Don Chitwood  donch
Imaging Research Labs
Tektronix, Inc.
Beaverton, OR

------------------------------

From: nrcvax!terry@caip.rutgers.edu (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Looking for "The Best Policy"
Date: 22 Oct 85 21:07:02 GMT

Once upon a time, I read a story in an anthology that stuck with me.
It was called "The Best Policy" but I can't remember the author's
name or the anthology in which it was published.

Brief synopsis:

A man gets picked up and questioned by aliens who want to take over
the human-known part of the galaxy.  They have a machine which
causes great pain if he doesn't tell the absolute truth.  By dint of
telling the "absolute" truth, he convinces the aliens that they
couldn't possibly overcome the humans, and had better bow down and
pay tribute instead before they are totally wiped out themselves
(something akin to stepping on an ant).

End synopsis.

Anyway, I would really love to get a copy of this story since I
could reread it about every 6 months and not get tired of it.  If
anyone out there knows the author and/or the anthology it's in,
please let me know.  Thanks in advance.

Terry Grevstad
Network Research Corporation
ihnp4!nrcvax!terry
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry
ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry

------------------------------

From: nrcvax!terry@caip.rutgers.edu (Terry Grevstad)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 22 Oct 85 20:47:01 GMT

>      I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors
> and/or works.  I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of
> sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some
> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there.  Mary Malmros

What about Kate Wilhelm (sp?), WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG?  She
also has another out that I can't remember the title of right now
that is quite feminist and quite good.  Anyway, I enjoyed it and I'm
definitely not a feminist.  She's just a good author and writes from
the woman's standpoint.  If you want other titles, send me mail and
I'll get them from home.

Terry Grevstad
Network Research Corporation
ihnp4!nrcvax!terry
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry
ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 26 Oct 85 10:31:10 GMT

> From: dec-miles!chabot        (Lisa Chabot)

> ...just for fun, we can cite examples of
> female authors who write lousy female characters:
>  o Swooning females can be found in great abundance in romance
>    novels, such as those marketed by Harlequin (admittedly, most
>    of this stuff is probably not science fiction or what we like
>    to call fantasy--at least, I'm guessing because you don't think
>    I'm going to read them all!  :-) ); many of these are written
>    by women

I almost hate to tell you this, Lisa, but there is *one* Harlequin
romance that is fantasy ("our" kind of fantasy): THE FLOWER OF
ETERNITY by Margery Hamilton. It's a "lost race" fantasy. If you
want to read it [:-)], I have a copy.

[No, I haven't read it; I found out about it from a friend for whom
bibliography is as much a business as for me.]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 26 Oct 1985 03:12:53-PDT
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Bizarre SF comic

> From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA        (Jon Pugh)
> I have just been turned onto a comic book that really piqued my
> weird gland, it is called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.  It is
> just what it sounds like, a band of four kids who are turtle
> shaped [with shells] and trained as Ninja.

One correction: they are *not* "four kids who are turtle shaped";
they are actual turtles that mutated after exposure to radioactive
material (in a hilarious parody of the origin of the Marvel Comics
superhero, Daredevil).

And by the way, folks, before you start belittling this, the comic
is done tongue-in-cheek and is *not* meant to be taken at face
value.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ada Arromdee)
Subject: Re: The next Star Trek Movie???
Date: 25 Oct 85 17:59:53 GMT

scco@ur-tut.UUCP (Sean Colbath) writes:
>wildstar@nmtvax.UUCP (Andrew Fine) writes:
>>Captain Robert April, who was the first commander of the
>>Enterprise, was made an Ambassador upon promotion to Commodore
>>after his five year tour ), or becoming Star Fleet Commander In
>>Chief.
>
>I think you will find that Captain Pike was first Captain of the
>Enterprise...

No, there was an animated episode where it was shown that Robert T.
April was the first.  Since "Robert T. April" was one of the
original set of names from which the names Pike and Kirk were chosen
as names for Star Trek captains, this probably was an in-joke.

Kenneth Arromdee
BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS
CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET
ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!
      seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa

------------------------------

From: h-sc1!samson@caip.rutgers.edu (gregory samson)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 26 Oct 85 22:50:49 GMT

A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.ARPA writes:
>       Question
>               For any biologist out there, what's the feasability
>of taking genes from two females and combining them together,
>replanting them in a ovum and so get birth from the result.  I
>realise that only female children could be born this way ( YY
>chromsone?) and this leads me to the main thrust of the question.

Before the main thrust, let me get in a slight parry.  It's not
necessary to have genes from two females to combine together; all
you need is a way to stimulate the egg to divide.  That way, you can
get variety by using the eggs from many and various women.

>       What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most )
>was done this way since the society would consist entirley of
>females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would they
>be kept as pets?  revired?, or treated as equals (they would
>certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of
>society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a
>kindly womb donor.)
>       Any one know of any stories based on this?
>               andy.  A.COBLEY%DUNDEE@UCL.CS

Something similar to this existed in E. E. Smith's books, in the
culture of Lyrane II.  It wasn't purely women in the sense that you
state; instead, "males" (not men) are described as "dwarfs about 30
inches tall" and they are "not regarded as people, at birth or at
any subsequent time."  (The frequency of male birth is about 1 in
100.)  They are nearly unintelligent, since all they are needed for
is "the fundamental necessity of reproducing the completely dominant
female."

Women are referred to as "persons" (since males are not persons and
do not exist in society).  They use males simply as adjuncts to
breeding, after which the male is disposed of.  The concept of
"female" does not exist to the women, since they do not consider
themselves the opposites of males; indeed, they barely acknowledge
their existence.

I have no way of being certain, but I think this might have been a
clever stab at the pulp-fiction stories involving one lone spaceman
on a planet of women.  All that the "persons" of Lyrane II feel for
the ultra-macho Kim Kinnison is revulsion!

G. T. Samson
The Evil MicroWizard
gts@wjh12.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: Single sex societies

A very good novel dealing with the transition of a two-sex society
to a single-sex (female) society is John Boyd's
_Sex_and_the_High_Command_.  Try it.

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: Typos

A postcript to the typo discussion -- while bookshopping this
weekend I picked up the new Heinlein.  An errata sheet fell out.
Really!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Oct 85 0924-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #421
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 421

Today's Topics:

          Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hodgell & Hubbard &
                  McCaffrey & O'Donnell & Tiptree & Varley &
                  Vinge & Star Trek & New Books & A Request &
                  Mono Sex Societies & Children of the Atom,
          Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & Star Trek,
          Miscellaneous - Locus & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 11:23:46 est
From: romkey@BORAX.MIT.EDU (John Romkey)
Subject: new books

I just picked up Heinlein's latest, "The Cat Who Walks Through
Walls" (inside, subtitled "A Comedy of Manners") in hardcover from a
local random bookstore, so it is now out. I also saw "Job" and "So
Long and Thanks for All the Fish" in paperback.

So far (75 pages into it), The Cat seems like good old Heinlein. One
of the two main characters so far keeps saying "Want to go back to
bed?" The other is a former military type with a disability who has
taken up writing as a profession. Sound familiar?
                                        john romkey
                                        romkey@borax.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1985 11:18:24 EST
From: Michael Caplinger <mike%bambi@mouton.ARPA>
Subject: THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS - short review (mild
Subject: spoilers)

micro-review: worse than FRIDAY (less plot, less action, less
motivation, less character development); better than NUMBER OF THE
BEAST.  None of the redeeming strangeness of JOB.  Lots of
references to other work, and because of that, RAH fans will enjoy
it.  Quite mediocre Heinlein.  Wait for the paperback and read MOON
IS A HARSH MISTRESS again.

*** Now for the spoilers. ***

The first half or so of the book, things are looking up.  The plot's
not great, but you're in familiar territory and hoping Heinlein will
do something with this return to one of his most successful worlds.
Alas, he doesn't carry it off.

I might as well tell you now - this book has plot elements (and
characters) from NUMBER OF THE BEAST (and therefore from most other
Heinlein, by transitivity).  The consensus opinion is that this is a
bad thing.

The first half or so takes place in the universe of MOON IS A HARSH
MISTRESS, which we learn is the same universe as FRIDAY's.  The
speculation that MISTRESS's universe was the same as that of THE
ROLLING STONES (there were only a few hints in MISTRESS) is also
pretty well wrapped up.

Other than that, I'm not sure what to say.  The second half of the
book reads a lot like a slightly tightened up version of the last
third of NUMBER OF THE BEAST - which isn't much of a recommendation.
And the ending is fragmentary at best.

Remember all those author blurbs on FRIDAY?  Like Harlan Ellison
applauding the return of classic RAH?  Well, there isn't ONE blurb
from anybody on CAT.  Seems likely that no one could write one in
all honesty.  This book is worth reading only by diehard RAH fans.
At best, you'll want to read MISTRESS and THE ROLLING STONES again
afterwards.

        Mike Caplinger
        mike@bellcore.arpa
        ihnp4!bambi!mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 14:45:02 pst
From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Godstalk

A while ago I bought a book called "Godstalk" by P.C. Hodgell.  I was
able to finish it, but felt like I had been ripped off.  A crazed
plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably cute
talking cats.  Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's "Breed
to Come".  Not recommended.

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x268)
Subject: Re: Replies
Date: 26 Oct 85 21:34:57 GMT

>From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix
>> From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.ARPA>
>> It's out.  I've actually seen a copy in a B. Dalton's (or was it
>> Walden's?  --same thing).  It is 500+ pages, standard hardback
>> size book, but the typing is very large (about 12 point, I think)
>> and the interline spacing is generous, which compensates for the
>> number of pages.  I wasn't that interested in the book, so I
>> didn't bother looking at the price.  An interesting aside: one of
>> the preliminary
>
>Hubbard and Bridge Publications represent (in my opinion) an
>insideous attempt to redefine SF and Fandom into Hubbard's own
>mold. Their contests for new writers and soon-to-be published
>magazine are brutal attacks on the currently weakened SF
>mainstream, and an attempt to re-legitimize Hubbard as a founding
>father of SF. You should boycott Hubbard and Bridge Publications
>for the same reason you don't buy Dolphin skin coats, not because
>the coat isn't a good product, but because the producers are
>committing an immoral act.

I saw the book and the initial reaction is : bleah!!!  The second
reaction : hysterical laughter - 10(!) volumes???  The third
reaction : Who cares?

I looked through the book. It stinks. The writing style is
sophomoric.  The storyline fails to keep readers attention ( Keith
Laumer, he is not) and the topic is REALLY not that interesting to
begin with.

I have to confess I DID try to read "Battlefield Earth" ( no I did
NOT pay for it) and I couldn't force myself to read past the first
5-6 pages. It just was SO boring and un-attractive! And badly
written too. No, Gene Wolfe he is not.

I don't completely agree with boycott idea though. I believe we ALL
should subscribe to Bridge Publications FREE literature and have
them provide us with a steady stream of house-heating material. Let
them spend their "hard earned" money.

Oleg Kiselev.
...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 13:21:11 est
From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix
Subject: Restoree

Was supposed to be bad! (Or at least shlocky!) I believe that
McCaffrey stated it was intended as an SF parody of romance novels,
or something like that. I've never seen anyone who really took it
seriously (or never until now...)

McCaffrey's women are anything if wimpy. They are romantic, because
she writes romances (which happen to use SF and fantasy settings),
but they are also strong. I'd hardly say Lessa 'falls' into F'lar's
arms, for example.
                        James

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 01:56 EST
From: Andrew Sigel <SIGEL%umass-cs.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Flinger Series by Kevin O'Donnell

> Does anyone know if Kevin O'Donnell wrote a Flinger novel after
> "LAVA"?

Yes.  The fourth book is due out later this year (December?), and is
entitled "CLIFFS".  According to O'Donnell, there will be a total of
10 novels in the series.  The novels are written in alternation with
non-Flinger novels.  (Information current as of 2/85; release date
and title of next volume as accurate as memory allows.)

                                    Andrew Sigel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Caro's belief in James Tiptree, Jr.'s masculinity

Greatly abbreviated, the story of Tiptree is as follows: Alice
Sheldon has done many interesting things in her life, some of them
classified.  When she took up sf, she chose to write under the name
of Tiptree.  The name was taken from, I believe, a brand of English
preserves.  After a time, she started a second nom de plume,
Raccoona Sheldon, under which she marketed her lesser stories (with
letters of introduction to publishers from Tiptree).  Tiptree
started winning awards.  Since no one had met him, people became
curious as to his identity.  Pomposities were published declaring
that he had to be a man, because his style was unmistakably
masculine.  Tiptree was nominated for a Nebula for "The Women that
Men Never See."  Much of the praise for the story focussed on how
well a man could write from a woman's viewpoint.  Sheldon thought
the situation was unethical, and withdrew her story from
consideration without an explanation.  Shortly thereafter, parts of
the community found her out, and she went public.

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Varley's strong women are lesbians

The only lesbian I can remember is Gaby in the Titan trilogy.  The
other strong women are bisexual (or more, in the case of Rocky
Jones).  The men are presumably bisexual as well, but we don't see
this on stage as often.  You should also bear in mind that in most
of Varley's work, a sex change is about as easy as getting your hair
dyed.  Delany plays with this sometimes.  It lets you focus on
people as people, and play havoc with our remaining prejudices.

By the way, John Varley is also a pseudonym.

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Keith F. Lynch's query on Joan Vinge

Joan Vinge was married to Vernor Vinge.  He was a writer first, and
encouraged her career.  At some point they amicably divorced.  He
moved to California and she married Jim Frenkel, then Dell science
fiction editor (and publisher of both Vernor and Joan, esp. Joan's
_Snow Queen_) and now publisher of Bluejay Books.  The marriage was
in early 1980, I believe.  They have a daughter.  Maybe more by now.

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 85 12:15:55 PST (Sunday)
Subject: Re: Price of the Phoenix
From: Kurt <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

The other book that comes to mind by Marshak and Culbreath is 'The
Prometheus Design'.  Interesting book, by the way, dealing with
questions of whether self-destruction can ever be avoided by any
sentient race.  The question is based on the so-called 'Hell's
Kitchen' experiments (overcrowding rats), which showed that aberrant
behavior may in some way be related to population density.  I didn't
find it to be anywhere near the caliber of the Phoenix books, but
enjoyable nonetheless.

Kurt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 14:47:01 pst
From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: book requests

"Days of Grass" - a new book by Tanith Lee!  Has anyone read this?

Does anyone know the name of a book about three motorcycle toughs
(two guys and a girl) who are transported back in time by the curse
of an old crone - and in early England learn respect for the King's
law?  I liked it a lot and would like to find it again.

                                               Steve

------------------------------

From: oakhill!hunter@caip.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales)
Subject: New Heinlein and Hogan books
Date: 28 Oct 85 04:43:20 GMT

        Has anyone read either the new Heinlein book (???: A comedy
of manners) or the new James Hogan book (I forget the title).  Are
they worth the hard cover price or should I wait for paperback?

Thanks.

Hunter Scales
Motorola Semiconductor Inc.
Austin, Texas
{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 85 10:47:00 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington>
Subject: mono-sex societie(s)

COBLEY A ; Request for opinions, guesses, etc. about mono-sex
(female) societies.

    Interesting idea -- let's each write or speak to our favorite SF
author and ask for such a story.  Then we can discuss it for five or
six months on the digest.

    But come on, I'd rather discuss the theories on the poli-sci
digest!

    Ron Singleton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  query on _Children of the Atom_

Originally published in Astounding as separate novellas in 1948,
1949 and 1950.  Then Gnome Press published it in hb.  I have the pb
original -- Avon, 1953, 35 cents.  It is now available in a small
press acid-free illustrated edition in hb and pb published in 1978
from Pennyfarthing Press, Box 7745, SF, CA 94120.  I am not *sure*
that Pennyfarthing is still in business.

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 85 08:58 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Amazing Stories

Alright!  This is the kind of stuff I like to see on TV!  Humor of a
strange caliber.  Mummy Fu!  And I loved those rednecks (We've found
a witch, may we burn her?).  Correct me if I am wrong, but is this
show unique?  I love it.

Jon

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!)
Date: 28 Oct 85 02:39:36 GMT

Ok, I'll admit it.  I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27.  It
was a pretty good sendup of the old Universal horror films.  For
once the humor was really funny.
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 85 11:55:00 PST
From: <good@acc.arpa>
Subject: Harry Mudd

from Lisa <Wahl.ES@Zerox.ARPA>
> ... a ST pro author with a Harry Mudd novel ... "had great
> frustrations with one of the previous ST editors who kept
> referring to 'Harvey Mudd'."

This really made my morning. For years, after responding to the
question, "Where do/did you go to school", I have had to say, "No,
the ST character was named Harry Mudd".

                Greg Goodknight <good@ACC.ARPA>
                Harvey Mudd College '77

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 28 Oct 1985 12:11:30-PST
From: heffel%shogun.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Tracey Heffelfinger
From: Dtn:354-7431 GSO/F5)
Subject: Locus

    Anyone have current information on how to get a subscription to
Locus?

    Post or mail as you are able and feel appropriate.

Tracey Heffelfinger
Digital Equipment Corp.
Greenville, S.C.

UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger
ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 85 00:21:43 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Time travel
To: wex@MCC.ARPA

>From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
>It seems to me that time travel *must* imply spatial (not
>necessarily space) travel because if you move in time, then the
>spot you left from is going to be in a different spatial location
>when you stop moving in time.
>
>This would only be true if velocities were absolute.  They aren't.
>
>Can anyone think of SF in which time travel was explicitly
>separated from spatial travel?

  I can think of several.  The authors obviously didn't undertand
what they were talking about.  To say that the earth was 'there' in
1955 and will be 'over there' in 2015 is meaningless.
  For instance see Benford's _Timescape_, in which, when sending
messages to 1963, scientists in 1997 point their transmitter in the
direction the earth was in 1963.  This was the only major flaw in an
otherwise excellent book.
  Also see James White's _Tomorrow_Is_Too_Far_, in which it is
discovered that traveling a day back in time will put one in the
outer solar system because the whole solar system moved in the
meanwhile.  (Also, the time travelers lose their memory and
gradually regain it, both for no reason I could understand.)
  Both of these books share the implicit notion that it is the
center of our galaxy which is stationary.  Presumably a time
traveler there would always remain in the same place.  There is no
better reason to regard that as non-moving as anyplace else.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Oct 85 0904-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #422
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 31 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 422

Today's Topics:

                Books - Panshin & Simak & Stewart &
                        End of the World Stories,
                Comics - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,
                Films - Threads,
                Television - Star Trek & Amazing Stories,
                Miscellaneous - Getting Published

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Alexei Panshin
Date: 29 Oct 85 02:16:59 GMT

> three books: _Masque World_, _The Thurb Revolution_, and
> _Starwell_, which were supposed to be a kind of
> James-Bond-in-space series with hero Anthony Villiers.  They were
> listed as being by Alexei and Cory Panshin.  They weren't just
> disappointing; they were poorly written, extremely short (~150pp.
> and in larger-than-average print), and in general seemed to be the
> work of an amateur pulp SF writer.  I don't know who Cory Panshin
> is -- son, I suspect -- but I bet he or she wrote 95% of this and
> got Alexei to agree to add his name to the cover.

Cory Panshin is Alexei Panshin's wife.  The Villiers novels
originally came out under Alexei's name alone in the late 1960's
(the one I glanced at was 1968) for 75 cents each from Ace.  The
story behind "Alexei and Cory Panshin" (as I understand it) is that
Panshin at one point, in a burst of high writing energy and low bank
account, sold the rights (first refusal rights, whatever) for his
next five novels to a publisher.  After he spent the advance, he
realized that he'd have to write five novels for nothing (well, it
would seem that way) and hit upon the idea of co-authoring his
future work with his wife, thereby avoiding having to turn it over
to said publisher.  (I'm not trying to libel him, merely repeating
what I have heard.  If it's not true, I'm sure Jayembee will correct
me.)  I suspect he has adopted a policy of releasing all his work
under the double byline as a precaution.  While his wife may be
co-authoring his current novels, it seems unlikely that she
retroactively helped write the Villiers novels.

I haven't read the Villiers novels, though I have known people who
have enjoyed them immensely.  Panshin (singular/plural) has also
written:
        EARTH MAGIC
        FAREWELL TO YESTERDAYS TOMORROW
        HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION (non-fiction)
        SF IN DIMENSION (non-fiction)
as well as others than I can't think of off-hand.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 28 Oct 1985 15:36:39-PST
From: goun%whoaru.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: Re: Way Station Question

> Recently I received the SF Book Club edition of _Way Station_,
> author's name not remembered.  The reason I don't remember is that
> my husband idly picked up the book the day it came in and I
> haven't seen it without him in tow, since!  What is the book
> about--can someone review it without spoiling it?

_Way_Station_ was written by Clifford Simak.  It is my favorite SF
novel by far.

<Begin non-spoiler plot summary>

The story concerns a U.S. Civil War veteran, Enoch Wallace, who is
recruited by a galactic civilization to act as the keeper of a way
station along its interstellar transportation network.  The station
is established on Earth, in rural Wisconsin (I think), but its
existence is kept secret from the populace.  Enoch does not age
while inside the station, so he is still a young man when the
mid-twentieth century rolls around.  Local intelligence agencies are
beginning to notice him.  Earthly and galactic conflicts enfold him.

<End non-spoiler plot summary>

What this book has, I can only describe as "texture".  Simak is a
master at describing the feel of rural life and people.  He includes
just enough scientific justification to keep his story going, and it
never intrudes.  The main character grows and changes, and the
reader can't help but care what happens to him.

I can only envy you if you haven't read _Way_Station_ yet.  You're
in for a rare treat.
                                        Roger Goun
ARPA:    goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
UUCP:    {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun
USPS:    Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4
         100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098
Tel:     (617) 689-1675

------------------------------

Date: Mon 28 Oct 85 00:25:10-GMT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Re: Earth Abides

>From: mhs@lanl.ARPA
>  George Stewart, "Earth abides"
>
>Humfph.  Most of these are 25-30 years old.  Stewart will probably
>be hard to find.

No problem in obtaining it in the U.K. anyway. Its part of the Corgi
SF classics library and is available in paperback. Never quite could
see why its considered a classic though. I found it very predictable
and the writing style a bit juvenile. Still I suppose it was
probably the first book to look at civilisation after being wiped
out by disease (germ warfare ?). Terry Nation's BBC SF series
Survivors developed the idea much better in my opinion.

                        Alan Greig

------------------------------

From: zaphod!flory@caip.rutgers.edu (Trevor Flory)
Subject: MITR reading list (long).
Date: 24 Oct 85 18:44:22 GMT

Well Folks, here is the first issue of the ``Man in the Rubble''
suggested reading list.  I have collected the following from email
responses to my original request and postings gathered from
net.sf-lovers and net.books.  I have included the recommendor's
comments where it seemed appropriate.

BTW, if anyone can provide further information --such as the name of
an unknown author-- please feel free (email please).  Thank you all
for your input.  I will gladly accept further recommendations.

__Greybeard__
(by):  Brian W. Aldiss
(pub): Granada

__Earthworks__
(by): Brian W. Aldiss
(pub): Granada
        SYNOPSIS: Pollution has brought civilization to its knees.
        The protagonist travels through enough realms of decay
        --both geographic and social-- to present a lasting image of
        a dying world.

__Orion Shall Rise__
(by): Poul Anderson

__Nightfall__
(by): Isaac Asimov
        SYNOPSIS: ``A classic short story about a world orbitting
        multiple suns, forever in daylight, where civilization
        crumbles each epoch in which all of the planet's suns are
        eclipsed simultaneously.''  Ray Lubinsky (rwl@uvacs.UUCP).
        -can be found in the anthology of the same name.

__Catastrophes__
(by): editors: Martin Greenberg, Charles Waugh and Isaac Asimov
        SYNOPSIS: ``... the best collection of end of the whatever
        stories ....''  Jon (pugh@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU).

__By the Waters of Babylon__
(by): S. Vincent Binet
        SYNOPSIS: short story (source unknown).

__A Boy and His Dog__
(by): Harlan Ellison
        SYNOPSIS: Short story to be found in the anthology entitled
        _The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_.

__I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream__
(by): Harlan Ellison
        SYNOPSIS: Short story to be found in the anthology of the
        same name.

__The White Plague(?)__
(by):  Frank Herbert

__Riddly Walker__
(by): Russel Hoban
        SYNOPSIS: Apparently it takes a little effort to get past
        the language.  Enjoyable thereafter.

__The Stand__
(by): Stephen King
(date): ca. 1978.

__Hiero's Journey__
(by): Sterling Lanier
        SYNOPSIS: ``Lots of strange critters.''

__Notes of a Survivor__
(by): Doris Lessing
        SYNOPSIS: Warning: Lessing is rather pessimistic.

__God's Grace__
(by): Bernard Malamud
        SYNOPSIS: ``The last primates on Earth are a Jew and his
        chimp.''

__Dreamsnake__
(by): Vonda McIntyre
        SYNOPSIS: ``... a very well developed picture of the society
        of the post-holocaust world.'' Chuck Koelbel (chk@mordred).

__A Canticle for Leibowitz__
(by): Walter J. Miller Jr.
        SYNOPSIS: Three parts, three phases of life after a
        holocaust.  Some consider this to be the classic ``MITR''
        novel.

__A World Out Of Time__
(by): Larry Niven
        SYNOPSIS: ``Thrown three million years into the future by a
        relativistic space voyage, the hero returns to Earth to find
        the survivors of humanity living among the ruins.''  Ray
        Lubinsky (rwl@uvacs.UUCP).

__The Castle Keeps__
(by): Andrew Offutt
        SYNOPSIS: Non-Nuclear holocaust.

__Davy__
(by): Edgar Pangborn

__Alas Babylon__
(by): Frank Pat

__Lucifer's Hammer__
(by): Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
        SYNOPSIS: Follows the lives of various characters before and
        after a meteor/asteroid strikes the Earth and effectively
        ends civilization.

__Dinner at Deviant's Palace__
(by): Tim Powers

__The Wild Shore__
(by): Kim Stanley Robinson

__The Empire of the East__
(by): Fred Saberhagen
        SYNOPSIS: ``Good book, but we're starting to stretch the
        genre quite a bit here.'' Tom Phillips (trantor!phillips)

__On The Beach__
(by): Nevil Shute
        SYNOPSIS: ``This was one of the first classics of the after
        the destruction type. It deals with the situation as
        encountered by an American submarine on duty at the start of
        the War.  Both the movie and the book are excellent.''  Bob
        Guernsay (bob@scgvaxd.UUCP).

__Nightwings__
(by): Robert Silverberg
        SYNOPSIS: ``Way after the end, caused by invasion of
        aliens.''

__Tom O'Bedlam__
(by): Robert Silverberg
        SYNOPSIS: ``Mysticism and mutation.''

__Earth Abides__
(by): George R. Stewart
        SYNOPSIS: ``... a great man-in-the-rubble story.  The
        catastrophe is non-nuclear.  The post-catastrophe
        re-building is insightful and interesting.'' Peter Benson
        (benson@dcdwest.UUCP)

__In the Drift__
(by): Michael Swanwick

__The Peace War__
(by): Vernor(?) Vinge
        SYNOPSIS: ``... not exactly a 'man in the rubble' kind of
        story, but still very good in terms of survival of the human
        spirit.''

__Cat's Cradle__
(by): Kurt Vonnegut
        SYNOPSIS: ``A wry, witty end-of-the-world yarn which
        introduces my favorite substance, Ice-nine.''  Brent Slocum
        (Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA).

__Galapagos__
(by): Kurt Vonnegut
(date): still in hardback.

__Where Late the Sweet Bird Sang__
(by): Kate Wilhelm

__The Day of the Triffids__
(by): John Wyndham

__This Immortal__
(by): Roger Zelazny
        SYNOPSIS: Setting: long enough after The Fall that Man has
        regained ``a morality''.

__Malevil__
(by): unknown

__Radix__
(by): unknown
(date): recent paperback.
        SYNOPSIS: ``Perhaps a classic.''

__Triumph__
(by): unknown

__War Day__
(by): authors unknown

PS:     I respectfully acknowledge the MITR reading list
        posted by mcb@styx.  However, in recognition of all those
        who emailed me their suggestions and critiques I feel
        compelled to post this list if only out of respect for their
        efforts.

Trevor K. Flory           UUCP: ...!ihnp4{!alberta}!sask!zaphod!flory
Develcon Electronics Ltd.             Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, CANADA

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Oct 85 04:56:04-EST
From: "Thomas Young Galloway" <TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

As has been mentioned, TMNT started as a parody of Daredevil/Frank
Miller's Ronin/Marvel Mutants.  In a recent Eclipse Comics flyer,
they advertise the upcoming shipping of...

Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters.

No, I'm not kidding.

------------------------------

Date: Sun 27 Oct 85 23:53:45-GMT
From: Alan Greig <CCD-ARG%dct@ucl-cs.arpa>
Subject: Re: Threads

Yes THREADS is a British production (BBC to be precise) although its
only about a year old (if that), not two or three. Its centred
around the UK city Shefield and differs from films such as "The Day
After" in that it follows life through for several years after the
holocaust. It's certainly available in the UK on VHS/Beta but in PAL
colour format. Whether you can get it in NTSC colour is a question
for the BBC. I suggest anyone who wants to know writes to the BBC
video dept in London. That address should be enough to reach them.

The film is normally classed along with the other BBC production,
"The War Game" which was shot in black and white in the 60's but not
shown until 1984 because it was considered to give a too horific
depiction of Nuclear War. Maybe they should have altered the laws of
Physics for the film. E=m/c^2 ?

                        Alan Greig

------------------------------

Subject: re: st question
Date: 28 Oct 85 15:45:50 PST (Mon)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        I believe I remeber the phrase about 'taking chances' that
you are refering to .  In the episode 'Tomorrow is Yesterday' ( I
think ), the plot runs into three beachball shaped containers
containing alien beings.  They've been in those things for hundreds
of thousands of years, ever since their race blew themselves out in
a big nasty war.
        Their names are Sargon, Thelesa and a guy whose name I can't
recall, so we'll call him Fred.  The aliens need to temporarily take
over the bodies of, in order of above, Kirk, a scientist played by
Diana Muldaur, and Spock.  The do this in order to build themselves
android bodies they can move themselves into and live in.
        When the rest of the cast start making noises about how
dangerous this whole plot complication will probably be, Kirk makes
this nifty speach about how the risk is worth while, that "..risk,
gentlemen ?  Risk is what this starship's all about.  That's why
we're aboard her !", with the usual funky background Kirk music.
        It was kinda a fun episode.  The bloopers from this one are
hilarious.
                        Dave

------------------------------

From: petrus!karn@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil R. Karn)
Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!)
Date: 28 Oct 85 08:49:48 GMT

> Ok, I'll admit it.  I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27.

Me too. It was a good night for NBC; I also liked the Hitchcock
episode that followed. You *knew* that she was going to get buried
alive, but the *reason* was totally unexpected. I had assumed that
the old man would find out he'd been tricked (or that he could
really see all along) and would simply leave her there.

Phil

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Getting published
Date: 28 Oct 85 20:54:36 GMT

        I have this problem.  I want desperately to be published as
a Science Fiction Writer.  The only thing is, my (formal) training
is as an Engineer, and I don't know much about Real Life when it
comes to selling the Written Word.

        Okay, enough of that.  I've got the old IASFM guide to
writing a proper manuscript, plus I've got a girlfriend who has done
proofreading on printer's galleys.  If I write anything that might
be printable, the MS won't be a problem.  The booklet Amazing is
putting out on writing SF strikes me as a tract on how to write
stuff that George Scithers might like.  I've not actually read it,
so I don't know.  Does anyone out there publish in any of the
digests?  Steven Brust is off the net, if only temporarily, or I'd
write him directly.  I've written some things that I think are
saleable, and I've got an MS sitting at the offices of Fantasy and
Science Fiction right now, and response to this or not, I'm going to
try to get published.  (Sorry for the Defensive Defiance.)  If
anyone out there could/would reply to this, by e-mail or otherwise,
I'd appreciate it.

        (Has anyone noticed that, once one has assigned a story to
the loving care of the US Postal System, one becomes a nervous
wreck?  Not to mention all the worries over what those mean nasty
editors are going to *DO* to the poor thing.  Or even the
pre-response depression over the aniticipated rejection slip.  Why
does anyone do it?)

        Ah, the price of fame.
                                                        Mark!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Oct 85 0946-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #423
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 31 Oct 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 423

Today's Topics:

             Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hogan & Lull &
                     McCaffrey & Zelazny (3 msgs) &
                     Mono Sex Societies (4 msgs) &
                     Book Request Answered &
                     End of the World Stories,
             Television - Robotech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ukma!david@caip.rutgers.edu (David Herron, NPR Lover)
Subject: The Cat who Walks Through Walls
Date: 27 Oct 85 20:01:45 GMT

A new book by RA Heinlein!

This is one of those books you can't say anything about or you would
totally RUIN it for the reader.  Suffice to say that it is similar
to a number of his other works (Glory Road, The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress, The Number of the Beast (though better organized) and so
forth).  It is set about 100 years AFTER the revolution in Moon.

The only thing I'll say further is that it will only be interesting
to people who have read a few of his books and understand the
Furture History and so forth.  It would be telling, though, to say
more of why.

David Herron,  cbosgd!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 29 Oct 85 05:02:03-EST
From: "Thomas Young Galloway" <TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Heinlein:The Cat Who Walked Through Walls

There'll be some minor spoilers coming up. Warnings will be posted.

As much as I like Heinlein, I have to recommend that you don't buy
this one, at least in hardcover. While it starts off well, it tends
to be pretty disconnected. To put it bluntly, the book doesn't
really go anywhere.

Minor Spoiler:

The cat doesn't appear until about page 270 and is a *very* minor
character.

Semi-major spoiler:

Is there really an ending to this book? Or does it just stop? Is
there any real point to the book?

Major Spoiler:

It's a sequel to Number of the Beast.

tyg

p.s. Has anyone else spotted the error in the cover illustration?

------------------------------

Subject: Lot's of stuff
Date: 29 Oct 85 16:16:53 PST (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        James Hogan's new novel, Proteus Project, is his best piece
of work to date, ranking above Inherit the Stars, and hanging in
with Glass Slippers For a Princess.  In pretty much all of Hogan's
previous jobs, there have been miscellaneous problems with
characters being a little flat, or plots being a little predictable,
just minor stuff.  None of these problems here.  Plot moves very
well, characters all work, and the only real complaint I have is
that the science wasn't explained all to well.  ( No real reason it
should have been though; story was seen from viewpoint of
non-scientists for the most part. ) Several of the characters in the
book are/were actual people, like Sir Winston Churchill, Edward
Teller, Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, and, performing as a young
chemistry major from Columbia, one Isaac Asimov.

                Dave

------------------------------

From: lzwi!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Need to contact Sharon Lull
Date: 28 Oct 85 16:54:39 GMT

I'm trying to send a letter to Sharon Lull, who wrote a story, "I
Demand the Stars" (I think that's the name) for GALILEO.  So far as
I know, she hasn't published any novels, she isn't in the SFWA
directory (a friend checked for me), and I'm not even sure that
"Lull" isn't a pseudonym.  I don't even know if GALILEO is still
around.

This is more than just a fan letter, so if anyone can help track her
down, I'd appreciate it.  Send mail to me at ihnp4!lznv!psc (but not
ihnp4!lzwi!psc).

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc
{mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Oct 85 09:23 PST
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Anne McCaffrey's female characters

Poor Anne ... To L S Chabot: look at the copyrights on Dragonquest
and Restoree.  They're only a few years apart.  The strength of
Lessa should have been a clue that something was amiss with
Restoree.  She wrote Restoree with tongue in cheek, as a parody of
that kind of book.  To her continuing chagrin, first the editors at
Ballantine and now legions of readers take the book as a straight
adventure story.  The cover blurbs are largely responsible I think.
And now you're accusing her of the very attitudes she was lambasting
in the book....

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1985 09:10:41-EST (Tuesday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BitNet@ucbvax>
Subject: Zelazny--Lord of Light

The first time I read LoL, about 7-8 years ago, I found it ok, but
didn't particularly like the ending.  Since then, I've probably read
it about a dozen times, and found it better each time.  Nor would I
change the ending, since it is totally appropriate for the mood of
the story as a whole.

------------------------------

To: cracraft@isi-vaxa.arpa
Subject: Re: Lord of Light
Date: 29 Oct 85 07:43:30 PST (Tue)
From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa

I *love* the book, but there is one thing I would change: the
annoyingly cryptic inside-out time-line.  It's like, 51 pages of the
present, 151 pages of flashback, and then back to the present for
the final 42 pages.  The first time I read it, I didn't really
understand what was going on until I had finished the book.

Jef

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x268)
Subject: Re: Amber
Date: 28 Oct 85 22:20:04 GMT

If I recall correctly neighbouring Shadows of Amber ( the once next
to it could trade with Amber, as any one of Amber blood could cross
into a Shadow close to his own(?)

Oleg Kiselev.
...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

Subject: Parthenogenesis
Date: 29 Oct 85 20:45:29 EST (Tue)
From: Aimee Yermish <ayermish@ATHENA.MIT.EDU>

Works ok with frogs (poke an egg with a platinum needle and it
thinks it's been fertilized.  Frogs were never known for their
intelligence).  However, you have to remember that an egg cell only
has half the number of chromosomes as a normal somatic cell.  Among
other things, this would mean that all recessive mutations would be
expressed.  A good proportion of those are lethal.  The sex of
survivors is unclear.  One Y chromosome guarantees maleness, but I
believe that two X chromosomes are needed to produce a female.
Also, what would happen when the haploid creature tried to produce
more egg cells?  Meiosis requires the existence of homologous
chromosomes.  The problem is that haploid individuals just don't
occur in humans.  Now yes, this is sf, but I just find the idea a
little too far over towards the side of the unreasonable.  If the
author wanted to write a story about a planet inhabited entirely by
female frogs with platinum needles. . .

Aimee

------------------------------

Return-path: <decwrl!daemon@caip.rutgers.edu>
From: chabot@miles.DEC
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 28 Oct 85 23:32:08 GMT

>       What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most )
> was done this way since the society would consist entirley of
> females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would
> they be kept as pets?  revired?, or treated as equals (they would
> certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of
> society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a
> kindly womb donor.)
>       Any one know of any stories based on this?
>       Any ideas on the fesability, society, role of men.
>
>               andy.  A.COBLEY%DUNDEE@UCL.CS

This isn't too new an idea, and yes, there are stories about it.
Check out The Female Man by Joanna Russ.  Also, "Houston, Houston,
..." (erp, here I am again, typing without my library with toe's
reach) by James Tiptree, Jr who we know is really Dr. A. Sheldon,
although this one may not give you a good idea about what the
society is like.

------------------------------

From: wuphys!mff@caip.rutgers.edu (Swamp Thing)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 30 Oct 85 00:46:19 GMT

A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.ARPA writes:
>               For any biologist out there, whats the feasability
>of taking genes from two females and combining them together,
>replanting them in a ovum and so get birth from the result.
>
>       Any one know of any stories based on this?

I know I have read a short story like this.  Some colony got hit by
a plague which killed all of the men.  The women figured out a way
to fertilize each other.  A long time later, a "rescue team" shows
up, consisting of some men.  They knew that there were only women
left, and expected to be jumped all over by the women.  They showed
up making snide remarks about how the women must be really lonely,
etc.  But the women had no idea what they were talking about.

Unfortunately, I don't remenber who wrote it or what the title was,
but it might have been in one of the Dangerous Visions books.

                                        Mark F. Flynn
                                        Department of Physics
                                        Washington University
                                        St. Louis, MO  63130
                                        ihnp4!wuphys!mff

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Oct 85 01:21:35-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: monosexual societies....

     It hasn't been done yet, to the best of my knowledge.  There is
no good reason why it shouldn't work. It would be expensive, and
requires skilled personnel and sophisticated equipment (while the
traditional alternative requires only unskilled labor).
     There is a facet to this which a non-biologist might miss.  One
inherits from one's mother not only the DNA encoded information in
the nuclear genes, but also a load of mitochondria, which have their
own DNA and genetic information. If the procedure was performed by
fusing two ova (as seems the most likely possibility), then the new
cell would have mitochondria from both parents. I have no idea how
this would effect the cell, and the person that might develop as a
result.  If only the nucleus of one ova was fused with another,
whole ova, this problem could be avoided.
     There are no people with YY chromosomes. Your normal male is
XY, a normal female is XX. There are rare cases of individuals with
XYY, but this is very much an abnormality.

> What would a society be like if all reproduction (or most ) was
> done this way...?

     That's a VERY interesting question.  I would tend to think that
monosexual species are at some kind of reproductive disadvantage
versus polysexual species, because most of the large, complex
animals we see today are polysexual.
     One advantage that polysexual species may have over monosexual
ones is specialization. For all that Mother Nature may offend some
feminists, human females are physically optimized for bearing and
caring for children while men are not (I am not saying men are
optimized for anything). In humans, female sexual characteristics
are much more impeding then the male's (there is a reason female
Olympic athletes tend to look androgynous).
     Of course, in our modern, technological society, these physical
differences are largely irrelevant. As we further mechanize the
nature of work, sex differences become less important. So: (1) would
an all-female society evolve? and (2) would such a society be
stable?

     To answer the second question first, if reproduction is
predicated on the existence of sophisticated medical technology, I
do not think the society would be stable. A species which can not
reproduce without artificial aid is extraordinarily fragile, as even
a brief failure of civilisation would doom it. ('Lets start a baby,
Meg.'  "We cant Jean, we're out of batteries."). Also, in a given
area, small elites could easily control reproduction.

    As to the first question, if the only advance were affordable
female-female reproduction, it does seem likely that an all female
society might slowly take over.  However, I think something stranger
is likely to happen.

{enter blue-sky mode}

    Technological advances do not occur in a vacuum.  Around any
breakthrough there are a swarm of related advances, and the
interactions of these is impossible to predict.  I would suggest
that the same science which may one day give us female-female
reproduction is moving us towards a situation in which sex becomes a
moot point, particularly for reproduction.

     We are slowly but steadily cracking the code of the human
genome.  It is not too wild a speculation to suggest that within the
next century we will be able to select the genes of our offspring as
easily as we assemble the components of a computer system today.
Want your child to be beautiful?  You can.  Want a guarantee against
cancer? You can get it.  Want intelligence?  Musical talent?  Good
teeth?  Longevity?  No pimples?  Soon these will be selectable at
will in ones offspring.
     Once this technology is in place (and I expect to live to see
at least some of it), sex becomes an irrelevancy. Ones' child could
be truly ONEs' child.  Male and female characteristics become
optional extras (though doubtless almost a 'standard option', at
least at first).  But why should genders be limited to two?  I
expect talented designer geneticists (they make designer genes)
would come up with viable ideas for totally new sexes, opening the
door to hitherto unknown classes of love and pleasure.

     If one could design one's heirs as easily as one designs a
house, what would they be like? The question of gender becomes a
small factor in a much larger universe of choice.

{exit blue-sky mode}
                                        Peter Trei
                                        oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Subject: Lot's of stuff
Date: 29 Oct 85 16:16:53 PST (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        The story about the "man-who-is-captured-by-the-aliens-with-
the-nifty-lie-detector-machine-that-causes-pain-when-the-truth-is-
not-told-so he-tells-the-truth-and-beats-'em" story is by Randall
Garret, of Lord Darcy fame.  The story can be most recently found in
the 'Best of Randall Garret' collection.  Sorry, but I can't quite
recall the name, and I don't want to lie to you. ( Yo, JMB ! )
        This is actually a very nice collection.  Garret does short
stories much better than he does novels.  I recommend you all go find
a copy.
                Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Oct 85  13:54 EDT
From: RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: RE:Man-in-the-Rubble

 I find the many contributions to this topic lacking to some extent.
Since I am new to the net, I hope no one takes the above comment
personally.  Some very interesting trilogies(?) exist on the subject
of life after.......  One such series is by Saberhagen(of BESERKER
fame) called (each in sequence) The First, The Second and The Third
Book of Swords. The stories range over 2(?) millenia and each book
is related through the use of the swords. As a prolific scifi reader
I highly recommend it.  Another series is "The Erthrying Cycle"
(approx.) by Wayland Drew this is about the carrying out of an
ancient master plan to return humanity to its former glory after
WW?.  There are a number of other that come to mind without title or
author.  -> Anthology of s.s./ one author/ titled/ The Last Man on
Earth

aaron w.

------------------------------

From: lmef!susan@caip.rutgers.edu (susan)
Subject: Robotech
Date: 25 Oct 85 08:40:00 GMT

Salutations!

        Has anyone ever heard of Robotech?  It just recently started
playing here in the afternoons, and....  I'm hooked.

Some questions I have:

     1. Is it new
     2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I
        get it?)
     3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it
        besides me?

I would love to hear from anyone having ANY info on this animated sf
series.

A lonely Micronian & Centratti fan....(sp may be wrong)

*susan*

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Nov 85 0934-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #424
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 424

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Garrett & Hodgell & Hogan &
                    Mono Sex Societies (3 msgs),
            Films - Lifeforce,
            Television - Star Trek & Archetypal TV &
                    Amazing Stories,
            Miscellaneous - Time Travel & Pseudonyms (5 msgs) &
                    SFLovers and Microfiche & Apricon VII at Columbia.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Later Asimov
Date: 28 Oct 85 17:30:13 GMT

JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>I believe, that like any writer, Asimov is entitled to hot and cold
>spells.
>
> [Damning of _Foundations Edge_ with faint praise]
>
>I like the Robots of Dawn however....really liked it.
>
>To be fair to Isaac in his declining years, I think that it should
>be noted that some of his 'Golden years' stuff were duds or near
>duds. Take the 'Stars Like Dust' for example, or the 'God's
>Themselves' (yes I know it was later, but really, if you think sex
>with robots is wierd) . Yes, I would put Foundations Edge well
>ahead of each.

You've got to be kidding.  (You're not?  Oh, well...)  _The God's
Themselves_ is easily the best novel Asimov has written.  (In my
opinion, of course.)

Actually, I don't think Asimov has so much fallen off lately, as
failed to keep up.  What was fresh and innovative in the 50's is dry
and stale in the 80's.

I don't agree with those who disparage Asimov's characterization.  I
think a lot of the believability of characters depends on what
characters you believe in.  Personally, I find Asimov's characters
more real and believable than, for example, the characters in _Stars
in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand_ (which I think is a very good
book, by the way).  The problem is that he doesn't have any new
*ideas*.

Frank Adams                      ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:36 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: The Best Policy

Concerning Terry Grevstad's request for information: "The Best
Policy" is by Randall Garrett.  It was originally published under
the pen name "David Gordon" in the July 1957 issue of Astonishing
Science Fiction.  It was most recently (I think) republished in
January 1982, in "The Best of Randall Garrett" (Timescape / Pocket
Books, ISBN 0-671-83574-2).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1985  11:28 EST
From: Dean Sutherland <Sutherland@TL-20B.ARPA>
Subject: Steve Rabin on "Godstalk"

No "sequel warnings" can be blamed strictly on the publisher/editor:
it is NOT the author's fault.  I do believe, however, that there
should have been a sequel warning included.

Now for your other comments:

@begin<flame>
The ONLY plot element "Godstalk" shares with "Breed to Come" is one
(1) cat.  In fact the cat in GS is just a cat (which happens to
talk), while the cats in BTC were the intelligent mutated
descendants of today's house cats.  NOT a very close match!  GS is
NOT 'a poor womans version of Norton's "Breed to Come"' it is a
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT kind of book with ONLY ONE plot element (out of
many) in common!!!!

The plot may be convoluted (OK, "crazed"), but it has quite a few
original ideas which are VERY well presented.

Over all, I would recommend the book highly to anyone who does not
hate fantasy.

@end<flame>

Dean F. Sutherland

------------------------------

Subject: Hogan's latest (The Proteus Operation)
From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Michael Johnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 12:15:45 EST

I've read it and I enjoyed it very much. I think that it is worth
the price of the hardcover.

The style is different than Hogan's usual, but very good
nonetheless. He spends much less time on Hard Science and more on
character development. He also did some VERY GOOD historical
research on the period he is writing about and has developed a very
good feel for what made things tick during that period.

Definitely worth reading, if only for an intriguing "what if"
concerning the course and politics of WW II. The characters are
believable and human, I thought, which some seem to think doesn't
happen enough in Hogan's books.

No spoiler warning on this since you can get as much information as
I have given you about the storyline (and more) from the jacket
blurbs.
                            Mike Johnson

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 29 Oct 85 23:55:00 GMT

THe only story I know of which deals intelligibly with a society
based on fusion of ova is "When it Changed" by Joanna Russ. A
wonderful story it is, too.

(SPOILER WARNING)

James Tiptree's "Houston, Houston, do you Read" postulates a
single-sex society based on cloning. Very interestingly worked out;
the people in the society are all busily exploring the possibilities
of their genome. For example, "Lucy's" talk a lot (I think it's
Lucys). Personally I think such a society is stuck in a genetic dead
end, but the ideas are fascinating and the story itself is very good.

Norman Ramsey

ARPA: norman@lasspvax   or   norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman
BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA
US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall,
         Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853
Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work)    (607)-272-7750 (home)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 15:28:58 EST
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@bbncc-washington>
Subject: mono-sex societies

I apologize! I'm sorry!

Because I could not remember ever having read such a story, I
(shortsightedly) assumed there were none.  This message is being
sent prior to seeing any of the flames that are sure to follow my
posting.

I'll try to keep my flying fingers in check in the future (I
promise).

Ron S.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 30 Oct 1985 12:21:54-PST
From: heffel%shogun.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Tracey Heffelfinger
From: Dtn:354-7431 GSO/F5)
Subject: single sex societies

   Years ago I read "Virgin Planet" by Poul Anderson(I believe).  It
featured an all female society that perpetuated itself by
Parthenogenisis.  I don't remember much about it because it's been
years since I read it.

   Anybody else notice that all the examples given so far have been
all female societies??

   Of course as soon as I typed that, I thought of an all male
example.  In Andre Norton's Witch World series there was a race of
men (whose name involved hawks somehow) that raided villages for
women.  These women were kept until they had a child.  If the child
were female, both were allowed to go back home.  If the child were
male, She was kept for 4 years to raise the boy.  At the end of 4
years, the mother went home and the son stayed with the men.

Tracey Heffelfinger
Digital Equipment Corp.
Greenville, S.C.

UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger
ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: A Real Lemon. LIFEFARCE :-)
Date: 29 Oct 85 19:07:15 GMT

   Has anyone seen that 'sci-fi' film LIFEFORCE ?
   You know, 'Beyond space they found something fairly horrible (but
it couldn't act)'. It is so bad it is almost good. What can be said
about it? Well for a start, Peter Firth obviously went to a
carpentry school and not an acting school :-) . Deathless prose
like: "This is a D- notice situation" after some reporter has just,
rather stupidly, asked him whether he's a member of the SAS. Perhaps
he did voiceovers for the Cybermen.
        Poor old Frank Finlay should have known better. Mind you,
though, he did get the best line in the entire film. He's just told
old Woodentop (Peter Firth) how he killed one of the vampires,
waffled on about life after death, ("But how do you know?") then he
looks at Peter Firth, smiles quizzically, and says "Here I go...!"
before expiring with a wonderful special effect borrowed especially
from Ghostbusters. Unfortunately, the rest of the film is not as
intentionally funny as this. The moment that looms large in my mind
is nearer to the start of the film.
        You know in those 'psychological thriller' films where the
innocent victim is working away at his desk, when we see the shadow
of the maniac with the knife on the wall. Well, Lifeforce provided a
new twist on this scene. As the security guard (in this case) sits
quietly at his desk, bent over some work,the shadow of an enormous
t*t appears and moves menacingly towards him. Classic.  Most of the
film was actually as bad as this, being an excuse for Mathilda May
to wander around naked for three-quarters of the film.

As witnessed by:R.Ramsay
                Ashvin Patel
                Anthony Flynn
                Carlos Sarno
                Andy Thornton.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 08:19 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Star Trek Quote Question
Cc: Gern <GUBBINS@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA>

The full quote is: "Gentlemen, we all have to take a chance,
especially if one is all we have" and is from "Tommorrow is
Yesterday" just after Scotty has explained to Kirk the dangers of
trying to use the sun's gravity to create a time warp and go back to
their own time.  (This info confirmed by video tape.)

Lisa Wahl
Star Trek Welcommittee

------------------------------

From: iddic!dorettas@caip.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes
Date: 29 Oct 85 00:07:16 GMT

>       Isn't it funny how the same old themes keep rearing their
> heads (ugly or otherwise) in popular sf tv shows. It occured to me
> that one could probably "distil" the most typical of these to form
> a resulting "gestalt" episode from the essence.
>       Take, for example, the following gestalt "Star Trek":

Or how about this formula, from the same series:

:00  opening credits
:02  setting described
:04  problem-of-the-week portrayed
:20  initial solution well under way
:31  Kirk (sometimes Spock or McCoy or Scotty) discovers the *REAL*
        nature of the problem, which is impossible to solve
:40  Principal (usually Kirk or Spock) proposes radical solution
:47  Radical solution attempted...with only seconds to spare
:55  Solution works perfectly; all counters reset to normal
:58  Witticism by principal (usually Kirk)
:59  closing credits

This formula works unbelievably well, within a few minutes either
way.  It works best with Star Trek, though similar ones (like the
Brady Bunch "who has a developmental problem that we can solve in a
half-hour" disease) can easily be recognized.

        Mike Sellers  <-- note the name difference from above

------------------------------

From: potomac!jsl@caip.rutgers.edu (John Labovitz)
Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!)
Date: 30 Oct 85 04:52:25 GMT

> > Ok, I'll admit it.  I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27.

Did anyone realize that the first redneck (the guy watching TV) was
Miller from the film `Repo Man'?  And that the `tough guy' redneck
was one of the Replicants from `Blade Runner'?  Does anyone know
their real names, and what else they've done?

Did anyone who has seen `Repo Man' and `Blade Runner' notice that
the two characters acted very similarly to their respective
characters in the Amazing Stories show?  I almost expected the first
guy to say `You got it...time machines!' and the other guy to say
`Ever had an itch you can't scratch?' (for the unknowing, some of
the best lines of each movie).

John Labovitz
..!{rlgvax,seismo}!bdmrrr!potomac!jsl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:41:20 cst
From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
Subject: Time travel, take 2

Thanks to those who replied to my earlier posting on time-travel.
One thing still puzzles me though: Is it the case that the center of
mass of the universe doesn't move?  Is it (theoretically) possible
to calculate our position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving point?
People seem to talk about our universe as expanding, but expanding
away from what?

Alan Wexelblat
WEX@MCC.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:35:14 cst
From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
Subject: Authors & Pseudonyms

If memory serves, about 2 years ago (summer of '83?) someone
published in SF-Lovers a list of authors and known pseudonyms.  Does
anyone still have this list?  Can someone at Rutgers check the
archives and see if the list is there?  Thanks!

Alan Wexelblat
WEX@MCC.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:09 PST
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Andre/Alice Norton

Andre/Alice Norton also wrote with Grace Allen under the name of
Allen Weston.  (see _The Index of Science Fiction Magazines
1951-1965_, by Norm Metcalf)

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:11 PST
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  John Norman =? Norma Johnson =? John Lange

Where did "Norma Johnson" come from?  Every source I've ever seen
says that John Norman is a pseudonym for Dr. John F. Lange, Jr.

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:15 PST
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Re:  Piers Anthony =? Toni Pearce

And where did "Toni Pearce from Boise, Idaho" come from?  See for
instance Charles Platt's _Dream Makers Volume II: The Uncommon Men &
Women Who Write Science Fiction_, pp 103-111.  The Piers Anthony
that he interviews has a greying beard and a wife.

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:19 PST
From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: John Herbert Varley

Well, I've never said that bibliography was my business.  I knew he
was called "Herb" by his friends, and I knew he had written under
the name of "Herb Boehm", and I've seen articles that claimed that
"Herb Boehm" was his real name, but after Boyajian's rebuttal I
found an intro that Terry Carr wrote to a story of Varley's that
calls him John Herbert Varley, and who would know better than Terry?

This strengthens my point about not trusting what you read in
sf-lovers, even when it's from a seemingly reliable source.  :-)

Lubkin

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1985 13:30:13 PST
Subject: SFLovers and Microfiche??
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

Is there anyone out there who has the resources and might be
persuaded to put all of the SFLovers Archives on Microfiche??  There
are probably many people out there (me included) that would be
willing to pay a share of the costs.

Recently all of the PCNet stuff was put on Microfiche, I believe the
cost was on the order of a few dollars a fiche.

I currently have ALL of the archives printed out from the
lineprinter (about 4 ft stack of printout) and considering the
historic importance of the list (the first real distributed mailing
list of its kind, and probably the largest), I think it would be
nice to have it all in a manageable size.

Anyone out there with a COM device??

                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30 Oct 85 22:48:42-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Apricon VII at Columbia.

            The Barnard-Columbia Science Fiction Society
                              presents

                       A P R I C O N   V I I

                          Guest of Honor:
                       CHRISTOPHER STASHEFF,
            author of \The Warlock in Spite of Himself/

                                also

       Films: Bladerunner, The Mouse that Roared, Metropolis.
   Panels, speakers, art show, Japanese animation, filk-singing,
 huckster's room, trivia contest, Dungeons and Dragons Tournament.

             Time: Noon till Midnight, November 9 1985.
Place: Ferris Booth Hall, Columbia University (115th St & Broadway),
                           New York City

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Nov 85 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #425
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 425

Today's Topics:

       Books - Asimov & Ford & Heinlein & Mono Sex Societies,
       Television - Captain Harlock & Robotech (3 msgs),
       Miscellaneous - Space Is Clean

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ho95e!ran@caip.rutgers.edu (RANeinast)
Subject: Robots and Empire (SPOILER at end)
Date: 29 Oct 85 14:07:40 GMT

Well, my copy arrived yesterday from the Science Fiction Book Club.
I think "Robots and Empire" matches "Foundation".  It had me turning
those pages, wanting to find out what was going to happen next.
Furthermore, it had in it (at least 4 times) those occurrences where
you sit back and think, "I never thought of that before".  Then you
think of some of the implications.

Much of the novel deals with the Zeroth Law of Robotics (the book is
worth its price on this alone, and how robots react to it).  What,
you never heard of the Zeroth Law?  Every science with three laws
has a zeroth law, which always is discovered later, but which
everyone agrees is of prime importance and certainly cannot be
relegated to number four.

This is not full of the constant bickering that occurred in
"Foundation's Edge", and has a much stronger sense of purpose than
"The Robots of Dawn".  I also think it is doing a great job of
starting to tie together the Robots and the Foundation series.  It
hangs together nicely, and is well motivated.  This is definitely
one of the best Asimov has written in a long time.

For all you Davis Tuckers out there, some writers write like a
beautiful, finely-inlaid, cobblestone road: You admire the road, and
how well it was put together, and how cleverly gems have been
inserted to achieve just the right effect.  Other writers are just
gravel roads, but they lead you through spectacular forests, and
breathtaking mountains, and sheer canyons.  Asimov is of the latter.

                      *******SPOILER*********

One question in the book is, "Where did the Solarians go?"  It sure
looks to me like Asimov has set this up so that the Solarians become
Gaea in "Foundation's Edge".

I am also wondering how long R. Daneel Olivaw will stick around.  He
will certainly help with the abandonment of Earth (and his newly
acquired telepathy will be important there), but I would not be
surprised to find him still there in the sequel to "Foundation's
Edge", when they all finally find Earth.  After all, he'll only be
about 20,000 years old, and I don't see how Earth would be totally
abandoned.  The radioactivity, while hazardous, cannot be fatal.  I
would expect greatly increased mutation rates, though.

Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran)
AT&T-Bell Labs

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Re: Star Trek novels (Really John M. Ford)
Date: 30 Oct 85 19:15:58 GMT

> There is at least one star trek novel which doesn't follow the
> formula, _Final_Reflection_ by, I believe,John Ford.  It's about a
> Klingon starship commander and takes place long before anything in
> the series.  It's pretty good reading and has some nice ideas
> about everyone's favorite villains.
>                                                          Todd

Which makes me think to ask, has Mr. Ford published any Alternities
Corporation stories since "Slowly By, Lorena" in IASFM some time
(years) ago?  They were the best things the magazine published under
Scithers, other than maybe the "Adventures in Unhistory" by I
believe Algis Budrys.  Have the Alternities stories been
anthologised?  Where?
                                                        Mark!

------------------------------

From: vice!keithl@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith Lofstrom)
Subject: New Heinlein Novel !!!
Date: 28 Oct 85 17:06:46 GMT

Hi, Folks.  Been away for a while...

Robert A. Heinlein "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" Putnam, ISBN
0-399-13103-5

For those of you who find Heinlein politically incorrect, skip this
posting.  For the rest of you:

WOW.  "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" WAS my favorite Heinlein.
Before this book.  Heinlein starts out in the "Free Luna" universe,
about 150 years later - and goes from there.

This is peppered with the usual bon mots, in jokes, heroic heros
(and more heroic heroines), chivalry, technology, tanstaafl, and
joie de vivre (including both ends - warning for the prudish).
Unlike some recent Heinleins, this one has a pretty strong plot and
some hints of subplot, and an ending like a brick wall.

Let your project schedules slip a day.  Buy it and read it.  I found
it at Powells in Portland; it should reach the hinterlands soon.

Keith Lofstrom
MS 59-316, Tektronix, PO 500, Beaverton OR 97077  (503)-627-4052
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}
        !tektronix!vice!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

From: moncol!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Ruschmeyer)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 30 Oct 85 22:22:37 GMT

A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.ARPA writes:
>               For any biologist out there, whats the feasability of
>taking genes from two females and combining them together, replanting
>them in a ovum and so get birth from the result.
>
>       Any one know of any stories based on this?

Not exactly, but...

One of the secretaries here was talking about a book she read called
MR. ADAM.  It was apparently written in the late 40's and concerned
a nuclear accident which left the male population of the earth
sterile, except for one man.  As she explained it, the book
concerned the government's efforts at repopulation via this one man.

BTW, she said the book was hilarious. (Anyone with a pointer to
finding a copy?)

Name:           John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:        Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:          (201) 571-3451  *** NEW NUMBER ***
UUCP:           ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john
                ...!princeton!moncol!john
                ...!pesnta!moncol!john

------------------------------

From: cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Captain Harlock
Date: 30 Oct 85 17:53:29 GMT

As I've spent my past two hours catching up on old news it seems
that not too many people out there know that Captain Harlock is in
release.

Captain Harlock is being shown in the bay area on channel 36 at
4:30pm on weekdays under the title "Captain Harlock and the Queen of
a Thousand Years". Yes, it is being distributed by Harmony Gold, and
yes it is a combination of Captain Harlock and Queen Millenia(sp?).

If you have never seen Captain Harlock or seens from it, and you
have watched Macross, Sothern Cross, and Mospeoda (i.e. Robotech),
be warned Captain Harlock is done in a different animation style
from Robotech.  Some friends of mine who liked Robotech thought that
Harlock would be just like it, since the advertisements up here said
"From the same people who brought you Robotech." They thought that
meant the same animators, but when they saw different, they didn't
like it. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to see too many
Harlocks, so I don't know how well Harmony Gold combined the two
series. Hopefully they've done a good job.

                                       Sean "Yoda" Rouse

------------------------------

From: rochester!ciaraldi@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Ciaraldi)
Subject: Re: Robotech
Date: 31 Oct 85 02:57:08 GMT

>       Has anyone ever heard of   Robotech?
> It just recently started playing here in the afternoons, and....
> I'm hooked.
>
> Some questions I have:
>
>       1. Is it new
>       2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I
>          get it?)
>       3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it
>          besides me?
>
>       I would love to hear from anyone having ANY info on this
>       animated sf series.
>
>       A lonely Micronian & Centratti fan....(sp may be wrong)
>
> *susan*

Aha! Robotech strikes again!

This has shown up in net.comics before, but the basic answers to
your questions are the following:

1) Robotech is actually three Japanese animated series from the same
   company, reshuffled somwhat and dubbed into English by an
   American company, Harmony Gold.  The three Japanese series were
   called MACROSS, SOUTHERN CROSS, and MOSPEADA.  Two were in the
   same "universe" and the other wasn't, but has been rescripted to
   make it compatible.  They are considered quite good examples of
   Japanimation.  Each of the series has roughly 30 episodes, for a
   total of about 90.  As rescripted into English, the 3 series
   relate like this:

   Macross is the first.  It concerns an alien spaceship which
   crashed on Earth a long time ago.  Earthlings finally figure out
   how to run it, and are just getting it ready for its first flight
   when the Zentraedi arrive.  The ship (called SDF-1 for "Space
   Defense Fortress", I think) comes to life and attacks the aliens,
   and the Earthlings are plunged into battle.

   20 years later, aliens attack again, and again Earthlings in
   battle armor and convertible vehicles defend the Earth.  I don't
   know where the term "Southern Cross" fits in, but I remember a
   reference to "The Army of the Southern Cross".

   Another 20 years later (I think), there is another invasion, and
   the Earth is overwhelmed.  As Mospeada opens, our hero crashlands
   in Central America and has to make his way to the former USA and
   Earth HQ.  As I understand it, there is less space battle in this
   one.

2) Comico--The Comic Company is publishing the entire Robotech
   series in comic book form (there is a line in the closing credits
   to that effect).  They are publishing it as three interlocking
   series.  ROBOTECH--The MACROSS SAGA covers the first set of
   episodes, ROBOTECH MASTERS is the middle set, and ROBOTECH--THE
   NEW GENERATION is the final set.

   Because the whole series is so long, and being shown at different
   rates in different parts of the country, the comics publishing
   schedule is a little funny.  Each of the 3 series publishes a new
   issue every 6 weeks (nominally, anyway), staggered so a new
   episode hits the stores every 2 weeks.  Each series does its 30
   or so consecuitve episodes in the same number (i.e. 30 or so) of
   issues.

   So, Macross Saga has about 6 issues out so far (the very first
   issue was called simply MACROSS, without "Robotech"), adapting
   the first 6 episoded.  Masters has about 3 issues, adapting the
   first 3 episodes of Southern Cross, or what appears to the
   unsuspecting TV viewer as episodes 31-33 of Robotech, and New
   Generation similarly has aboyut 3 issues out.

   So, where do you get them?  Comico I think sells only through
   comics stores and certain magazine stores, not regular newsstands
   or 7-11's.  All three series are also avaialble from Comico by
   subscription, or from comics stores that sell mail order.  If
   your local comics shop doesnt have back issues, try a biggie like
   Bud Plant in CA.

3) Does anyone else watch them?  I have been reading all the
   issues, but finally last week saw my very first episode,
   discussed in the next news item.

I hope this was helpful, and I hope I didn't get too many facts
wrong, since I did this all from memory.

Mike Ciaraldi
seismo!rochester!ciaraldi

------------------------------

From: pedsgd!bobh@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Robotech
Date: 29 Oct 85 13:14:17 GMT

1)) It's new in THIS country; it is a translation of (I gather) a
    three- part Japanese series; Macross (What I'm seeing here in
    NYC metro on Sat mornings 7:30AM; having to get up w/ toddlers
    on weekends has its advantages :-) ), Southern Cross, and
    Orguss.  It has been reviewed somewhat in net.comics; general
    opinion is that it is probably the best of the 'giant robot'
    cartoon series brought over from Japan.

2)) Yes, it IS available in comic form; the closing credits for the
    episodes I see say as much.  However, since the publisher
    (Comico) is one of the independents, you probably have to find a
    comics specialty shop in order to get them.  I have seen three
    titles on the shelves; 'Robotech - The Macross Saga', 'Robotech
    Masters' and 'Robotech - The New Age (?)'.  Try an inquiry in
    net.comics about mail-order or where you might find it locally.

3)) As I said, getting up with little ones on weekends has its
    pluses. :-)
                                        Bob Halloran
                                        Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG
UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\
                         {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh
USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724
DDD: (201) 758-7000

------------------------------

From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Robotech
Date: 29 Oct 85 17:23:25 GMT

I don't know how old the series is, but I saw it in Hawaii in May
and June of this year.  It seeme to me that I came in on the middle
of the story.  Even so I became hooked very quickly, and was upset
because I could not see them all (Robotech is not show in Indpls.).
That is all I know about it; I hope it helps.

                                              Joland

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Space Is Clean
Date: 31 Oct 85 21:25:28 GMT

                           Space Is Clean
                    An article by Mark R. Leeper

     I was listening to a record of music from science fiction
films.  They played the title song from the epic science fiction
film GREEN SLIME (yes, there was a Japanese-American co-production
called GREEN SLIME).  The lyrics contain the lines:
     Man has looked out to space in wonder
     For thousands of years,
     Sometimes thinking that life could be somewhere
     And now...now it's here!
"What a pity," I thought, "if after all that searching we found life
and it made you sick just to look at it."  But that got me thinking
about how likely it was that if we found life in the universe it
would likely be something that would turn our collective stomachs.
There are, after all, not many life-forms on this planet that if you
saw one scaled up to about six feet tall or 180 pounds would not
make you at least a little queasy.  I heard someplace that most of
the animal biomass of the world is beetles.  We should certainly be
used to what a beetle looks like.  Let's face it--Gregor Samsa
didn't have any groupies.  Mick Jagger has groupies, but even that
is pushing human tolerance.

     Not that there isn't a good reason to instinctively be
disgusted by relatively alien life-forms.  That's nature's way of
saying "Do not touch!"  It is similar to the instinctive fear some
people have of spiders and snakes.  Somewhere in our past there were
some pre-humans who hated spiders and snakes, and some who thought
they were pretty and grabbed for them.  The former group were our
ancestors; the latter ended as Caveman McNuggets for jackals or
buzzards or something.  Life-forms fall into three classes: friends,
food, and foes.  That's the safest way for a pre-human to live.
Friends better be close friends.

     So most life-forms we find disgusting, but the converse is even
more true.  Only a small part of the matter on Earth is connected
with life- forms, yet everything disgusting is.  I don't mean
virtually everything, I mean everything.  Think about it.  What your
cat left on the floor, the disposable diaper you kicked in the
grocery parking lot, what you stepped in on the sidewalk: they are
all icky because of their connection to living matter.  There's
nothing disgusting about rocks on the moon.  People can say space is
barren and cold but it isn't disgusting.  When you find green slime,
then it will be disgusting.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Nov 85 1018-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #426
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 426

Today's Topics:

           Books - Boucher & Heinlein & Hoyle & Tepper &
                   Mono Sex Societies (3 msgs) & Star Trek,
           Films - The Brother From Another Planet,
           Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) &
                   Archetypal Episodes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: "The Quest for Saint Aquin" (SPOILER)
Date: 31 Oct 85 17:21:23 GMT

A short time ago in this newsgroup someone posted a request for a
story about a priest who went on a pilgrimage to find a holy man (a
candidate for sainthood) whose body had been miraculously preserved.
The saint turns out to be a robot. The story is "The Quest for Saint
Aquin" by Anthony Boucher.  I found it in the SF Hall of Fame vol I.

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax  or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman
BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA
US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall,
         Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853
Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work)    (607)-272-7750 (home)

------------------------------

From: tolerant!waynet@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Thompson)
Subject: Re: new books
Date: 31 Oct 85 09:30:36 GMT

> From: romkey@BORAX.MIT.EDU (John Romkey)
> I just picked up Heinlein's latest, "The Cat Who Walks Through
> Walls" (inside, subtitled "A Comedy of Manners") in hardcover from
> a local random bookstore, so it is now out. I also saw "Job" and
> "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" in paperback.
>
> So far (75 pages into it), The Cat seems like good old Heinlein.
> One of the two main characters so far keeps saying "Want to go
> back to bed?" The other is a former military type with a
> disability who has taken up writing as a profession. Sound
> familiar?

Heinlein was one of my first reads, and as such brings back fond
memories, however, it seems that after a point Heinlein runs
philosophic, and loses sight of the plot line( I.E.
_Number_of_the_Beast_, what ever happened to the meanies?). Heinlein
has a limited stock of characters, good guys, (Himself young,
himself as he now imagines himself (Jubal Harshaw, etc..), bad guys,
and assorted strong, capable, intelligent (, and willing) females.
The philosophy is there for the reading. Ah.... the good old days.

------------------------------

From: c50p-at@ucbzooey.BERKELEY.EDU (Jonathan Dubman)
Subject: Hoyle and "Ossian's Ride"
Date: 1 Nov 85 07:46:08 GMT

Has anyone else read "Ossian's Ride" by Fred Hoyle?  He is probably
best known for "The Black Cloud" but "Ossian's Ride" is an
oft-overlooked thriller that is very well done.  I highly recommend
it.  (It is available at many used bookstores; it may be out of
print.)  It dates from the late 50s, I believe, and takes place in
the "future" of 1971 or so.  The main character is entirely
believable, the setting in rural Ireland inventive, and the plot
well formulated.  Without spoiling more than the first few pages,
the main character is a young Englishman who is talked into becoming
an agent to look into some mysterious doings in western Ireland.
This is one of the few books I just could not put down.

Has anyone read any other Fred Hoyle books?  I've only read those
two mentioned above.  I am interested in any other opinions.

Jonathan Dubman
UUCP: ucbvax!ucbzooey!c50p-at

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 85 23:41:47 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Sheri Tepper's True Game Books: A trilogy of trilogies (so
Subject: far); potential spoiler

If you haven't read the True Game Series, this message could contain
some spoiler information. Forewarned is forearmed.

>From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
>This book is the first of a trilogy, the other two being
>NECROMANCER NINE and WIZARD'S ELEVEN. The world is one in which the
>important
>
>KING'S BLOOD FOUR 3.0 stars (very good), and I look forward to
>reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN.

This trilogy is the first in what is currently a trilogy of
trilogies

King's blood Four, Necromancer Nine and Wizard's Eleven
     About Peter, introducing the world, in which Peter gets
     involved in world-shaking events.

The Song of Mavin-Manyshaped, The Flight of Mavin-Manyshaped, The
Search of Mavin-Manyshaped
     About Peter's mother, growing up and doing interesting things.
     Takes us up to the time that she is pregnant with Peter.

Jinian Footseer
     First in the third trilogy, the other two books aren't out yet.
     One of the characters from the first trilogy, her growing up
     and some of the events from a different point of view. Takes us
     up to the end of Peter's trilogy.

Tepper has the rare ability that she can tell the same story from
different points of view and have it come out differently... as it
would in real life.  Tepper took a science fiction idea as a basis
and created an entire world out of it. These could either be fantasy
or sf books... and there are always mysteries to solve, since no one
that we have met yet knows a significant fraction about the world.

definitely good stuff!
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 31 Oct 85 07:56:00 GMT

On a related theme, there's "The Crime and the Glory of Commander
Sudzul", by the late Cordwainer Smith (actually the late Paul
Linebarger, I think).

                          *** SPOILER ***

On a new colony, femininity becomes carcinogenic (say THAT three
times fast!), and some fancy genetic engineering has to be done.
Unfortunately, it seems to me to be rather homophobic: more would
spoil too much.

------------------------------

From: wildbill@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (William J. Laubenheimer)
Subject: Re: single sex societies
Date: 1 Nov 85 02:56:41 GMT

>   Anybody else notice that all the examples given so far have been
>all female societies??
>
>   Of course as soon as I typed that, I thought of an all male
>example.  In Andre Norton's Witch World series there was a race of
>men (who name involved hawks somehow) that raided villages for
>women.  These women were kept until they had a child.  If the child
>were female, both were allowed to go back home.  If the child were
>male, She was kept for 4 years to raise the boy.  At the end of 4
>years, the mother went home and the son stayed with the men.
>
>Tracey Heffelfinger
>Digital Equipment Corp.
>Greenville, S.C.

Another male example is the society of klopts in Cordwainer Smith's
story, "The Crime and The Glory of Commander Suzdal". The details of
reproduction were not terribly explicit, since the main point of
introducing the society was to explore the nature of an all-male
society.

Bill Laubenheimer
UC-Berkeley Computer Science
ucbvax!wildbill

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Nov 85 17:55:15-CST
From: Mayank Prakash <AI.Mayank@MCC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Monosexual Societies.........

> Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>:
>    Technological advances do not occur in a vacuum.  Around any
>breakthrough there are a swarm of related advances, and the
>interactions of these is impossible to predict.  I would suggest
>that the same science which may one day give us female-female
>reproduction is moving us towards a situation in which sex becomes
>a moot point, particularly for reproduction.
>
>     We are slowly but steadily cracking the code of the human
>genome.  It is not too wild a speculation to suggest that within
>the next century we will be able to select the genes of our
>offspring as easily as we assemble the components of a computer
>system today.  Want your child to be beautiful?  You can.  Want a
>guarantee against cancer? You can get it.  Want intelligence?
>Musical talent?  Good teeth?  Longevity?  No pimples?  Soon these
>will be selectable at will in ones offspring.
>
>     Once this technology is in place (and I expect to live to see
>at least some of it), sex becomes an irrelevancy. Ones' child could
>be truly ONEs' child.  Male and female characteristics become
>optional extras (though doubtless almost a 'standard option', at
>least at first).  But why should genders be limited to two?  I
>expect talented designer geneticists (they make designer genes)
>would come up with viable ideas for totally new sexes, opening the
>door to hitherto unknown classes of love and pleasure.
>
>     If one could design one's heirs as easily as one designs a
>house, what would they be like? The question of gender becomes a
>small factor in a much larger universe of choice.

Try Lem's "Star Diaries" to see these ideas carried out to their
logical extreme.

mayank.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 85 23:50:20 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Disagreement with jayembee(!!!) over Lichtenberg

>From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>> From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
>>      I sit here blithely replying, and find that I can only
>> remember one of the author's names: Jacqueline Lichtenberg,
>> currently of Sime/Gen fame. The other author wrote a Star Trek
>> fact book in the mid-70's I think, in which case it would be Joan
>> Winston, but I havent been able to find these books in my library
>> for a couple of years;...
>
>  They say memory is the first to go... :-)

mea culpa, I beat my breast. I am wrong wrong wrong. I thought I had
sent a message to Saul saying !Dont print that! but I obviously
missed. I humbly beg forgiveness, please stop beating me!

>The writers of PRICE OF THE PHOENIX and FATE OF THE PHOENIX (as
>well as at least one other Trek novel, the title of which I forget
>and am too lazy to look up, and editing the two NEW VOYAGES
>anthologies) are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Lichtenberg
>never wrote a Star Trek novel (unless it was fan published), but
>her sometime Sime/Gen collaborator, Jean Lorrah, wrote THE VULCAN
>ACADEMY MURDERS.
>
>    --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

I hate to disagree with you, jerry, (you dont know how I hate this!)
but I distinctly remember picking up House of Zeor because of
Lichtenberg's name.  At the time I was even more a ST fanatic than I
am now (I had more time and money (my dad bought the books)), so it
is possible that she was just fan-published, in which case it would
be in Spockanalia, that being the only zines I had. But I really
think it was from a book, or a short story.  Maybe one of the Fact
Trek Books? My dad is insisting that he keep all our trek books in
his house, so I can't go look it up... (meanie!)

/amqueue

------------------------------

From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Favorite Villians (spoiler)
Date: 23 Oct 85 09:43:03 GMT

I just saw "The Brother from Another Planet". Folks, this movie is
actually good Science Fiction! There are two characters here that
are probably the first believable aliens I've seen on the screen.
I'm talking about the two bad guys...

They absolutely steal the movie.  At first they seem to be standard
issue alien bounty hunters (:->), but it became increasingly obvious
as the film progressed that they were quite literally bloodhounds.
As an example, the way they react to the hero's territorial markings
(graffiti) is beautiful, straight out of a textbook. By the end of
the movie you can tell that they, too, are not only slaves but
effectively domestic animals, bred for the purpose from some hunting
carnivore. I'm amazed that this movie hasn't been better recieved by
the SF crowd... all I'd heard of it was "oh yes, nice twist, the
alien's black".

Peter da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter
IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter

------------------------------

Return-path: <tim@k.cs.cmu.edu>
From: tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!)
Date: 30 Oct 85 20:08:50 GMT

I liked the mummy episode as well.  It was a pleasure to see
Spielberg drop his obsession with modern middle-class white America
for a little while.  Of course, the cute kid was still there -- I
think it's in the contract with the network -- but he was introduced
to parody Westerns, not just to provide us with that back-porch
remote-control-TV atmosphere.

Of course, I'm a sucker for good parodies, and this one managed to
lambaste both Westerns and monster movies within a half hour!

Tim Maroney, CMU Center for Art and Technology
Tim.Maroney@k.cs.cmu.edu
uucp: {seismo,decwrl,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim
CompuServe:     74176,1360

------------------------------

From: videovax!shuju@caip.rutgers.edu (Shuju Burgess)
Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!)
Date: 30 Oct 85 18:37:17 GMT

>> Ok, I'll admit it.  I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27.
>
> Me too. It was a good night for NBC; I also liked the Hitchcock
> episode that followed. You *knew* that she was going to get buried
> alive, but the *reason* was totally unexpected. I had assumed that
> the old man would find out he'd been tricked (or that he could
> really see all along) and would simply leave her there.
>
> Phil

OK, if we're going to allow TV-talk in net.movies, I'll put in my
$.02 too.  I've seen the new Hitchcock Presents 3 times, and all
three times I had the ending figured out about 15 minutes into the
show, and this includes the episode mentioned above.  I haven't seen
any Amazing Stories except for the first one, but it wasn't nearly
as good as I had hoped.  Needless to say, I am pretty disappointed
at both of those shows.

Shu-Ju

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes
Date: 30 Oct 85 15:20:17 GMT

        Some good responses noted on this subject. Is "Amazing
stories" really as bad as it sounds? How can anything be that bad
(Galactica accepted)?

Ho hum... Here is another gestalt adventure, at the expense of DR WHO.

1)      The Tardis materializes on a deserted barren wasteland
somewhere in the south of England. The Doctor and his 'screamers'
(companions) dash outside (without checking atmosphere, radiation,
life-readings etc) and wonder about until one of them gets lost.
        The Doctor goes looking for this companion and gets
separated from all the others. Meanwhile the first companion has
discovered the Alien lifeform from the Doctors past. But it is
getting towards the end of the first episode so something exciting
has got to happen involving the Doctor, the Aliens and the prospect
of sudden death, so the aliens reveal themselves and attempt to kill
the Doctor.....CREDITS

2)      One of the Aliens says something to the effect of "He is of
more use alive" or "He must suffer for our past defeats" or "He is
the major character, lets explain the plot first , then try to kill
him!". The result is the Doctor lives, is reunited with companions
and escapes just in time for next weeks cliffhanger...CREDITS

3)      Building up to the final episode, usually quite slow and
boring..CREDITS

4)      The usual length for an adventure. The Doctor combines
forces with the down-trodden inhabitants suppressed by the Aliens.
After a battle involving lots of low budget effects they emerge
victorious and, before they can thank the Doctor ,he leaves leaving
goggle eyed natives staring at an empty space.
                        CREDITS

        This is slightly more prdictable than the Star Trek episode:
"RETURN OF THE APPLEING MACHINE WITHIN" (the last attempt) and
relates to so many episodes that naming it would be a shame.
Honestly, I do like DR WHO!

                                        Andy T.

P.S. Nightmare episodes of other series are being draughted at this
moment.
                YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED....

P.S.S. I am in two minds as whether to do one for 1999. Looking at
  the second season, I don't think it needs any more. Also it would
  probably turn out to be better scripted.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 85 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #427
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 427

Today's Topics:

           Books - Asimov & Ryan & Bugs & Book Request &
                   Mono Sex Societies (4 msgs),
           Television - Archetypal Episodes,
           Miscellaneous - Getting Published & Chambanacon &
                   Locus & Identifying SF-Lovers


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Later Asimov
Date: 3 Nov 85 09:42:33 GMT

> To be fair to Isaac in his declining years, I think that it should
> be noted that some of his 'Golden years' stuff were duds or near
> duds. Take the 'Stars Like Dust' for example, or the 'God's
> Themselves' (yes I know it was later, but really, if you think sex
> with robots is weird) . Yes, I would put Foundations Edge well
> ahead of each.

Interesting. I consider "The Gods Themselves" (no posessive) one of
his best.

Incidentally, Robots and Empire is rather good, though he does
telegraph his punches rather badly.

As for The Robots of Dawn: There's a bug in it.

        At one point Lije Bailey is shown a starscape using a
        machine that directly stimulates the visual cortex. This
        turns out to be important later on. The problem is that they
        blank out Aurora's sun to protect his retina? His retina?
        What does his retina have to do with it?

Peter da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter
IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter

------------------------------

From: c50p-at@ucbzooey.BERKELEY.EDU (Jonathan Dubman)
Subject: "The Adolescence of P-1": Seen it?
Date: 2 Nov 85 07:43:21 GMT

A few years back I borrowed and read a book by Thomas P. Ryan
entitled, "The Adolescence of P-1".  It was about a computer program
designed to "learn" based on its input; the main character feeds it
versions of science textbooks, literature, etc.  After a while it
learns English and starts actually learning the knowledge of
mankind, without the protagonist's knowledge.  On its own, it gains
access to a network (like the network file-transfer program) and
spreads throughout college campuses and companies' computers.  It
starts twiddling things in the background, and so on.  I tried to
purchase my own copy at many new and used bookstores but either they
had never heard of it or they said it was out of print as of several
years ago.  The copy I saw was an oversized paperback.

A few months ago, a friend of mine said he had seen a new hardcover
edition of "The Adolescence of P-1" copyright 1985, but I have not
been able to find it anywhere.  Is the book really in print?  Has
Ryan written anything else?  The book was written well enough that I
would want to read others by the same author.  Please respond via
email.

Jonathan Dubman
UUCP: ucbvax!ucbzooey!c50p-at
or:   ucbvax!ucbcad!ucbzooey!c50p-at

------------------------------

From: netex!ewiles@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Wiles)
Subject: Re: Big Bugs - any pointers??
Date: 2 Nov 85 04:02:46 GMT

>From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
> I am looking for stories or possibly essay-type discussions about
> giant insects.

I suggest "Nor Crystal Tears", the pre-quel(sp?) to Alan Dean
Foster's 'Humannx' stories.  Very good!

E. L. Wiles
Tech. Staff Member
NetExpress Inc.
UUCP:   {seismo,rlgvax}!hadron!netex!ewiles

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell)
Subject: Lost story/novel
Date: 2 Nov 85 16:47:07 GMT

This is a request for help about a story (novel?) that is really
annoying me because I can't remember much about it and I think I
should because it was really good.(the old brain aint what it used
to be)

 Anyhow, I recently bought a copy of High Rise by J.G.Ballard
thinking that it was the story/novel that I was thinking about. But
after reading the first few chapters I realised that I had read this
before and it wasn't the story/novel that I wanted to read. After
racking my brains for a few days I have decided to ask the net to
see if anyone can remember the story/novel and who wrote it.
 What I can remember is this:all the action takes place in these
giant blocks of flats (see why I got it confused with High Rise)
which are self contained buildings. The block is broken up into
groups of floors named after cities-the lowest being Warsaw I think
(another block which some minor characters are to move to was to
name the floors after famous men),with the poorest workers at the
bottom of the block and the richest at the top.
 This is just about all I can remember apart from the fact that it
was common for you to leave your room door open as at night people
swapped partners quite frequently.
 I know this is very scanty information but any info on the
story/novel would be appreciated if only to put my mind at rest.

                       cheers
                           IAN SEWELL

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@caip.rutgers.edu (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 31 Oct 85 23:12:12 GMT

>      What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most )
> was done this way since the society would consist entirely of
> females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would
> they be kept as pets?  revired?, or treated as equals (they would
> certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of
> society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a
> kindly womb donor.)
>      Any one know of any stories based on this?

I can think of one such story in which the society was all male with
no females at all.  The story is "The Crime and the Glory of
Commander Suzdal" by Cordwainer Smith (aka Dr.  Paul Linebarger) and
appears in at least two collections of his work.

Reversing the theme is Ursula Leguin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_,
about a society where everyone is a fully functional hermaphrodite.
Also with that theme is _Venus Plus X_ by Theodore Sturgeon(?).

Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

Date: Fri 1 Nov 85 23:19:29-EST
From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: RE: out of batteries !

If the idea of a monosexual society amuses you, then you should read
"Virgin Planet" (Poul Anderson, 1959).

Our hero (a male) finds a planet which was accidently colonized. The
all-female castaways luckily had the technology to cause virgin
births (and in 1959, frozen sperm hadn't been thought of).
Naturally, the castaways started a hereditary priesthood to maintain
that technology.

The story line is a bit sexist (and a bit simple). What interested
me was the society, composed entirely of identical twins. Everyone
was (of course) exactly the same as one of the 100 original
castaways. One village was populated by a single type (which
disliked all the other types). Other villages had a rigid caste
structure, based on the fact that everyone's aptitudes were known
from birth.

As for WHY we have two sexes, I recommend some of the recent popular
works on evolution. The concensus seems to be that it is in the
interests of women to keep around the silly things "whose only
talents are to fight and to make noise".

                Enjoy,                          Don Lindsay

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Nov 85 14:41:09 est
From: Carol Morrison <carol@mit-cipg>
Subject: Mono Sex Societies

>I know I have read a short story like this.  Some colony got hit by
>a plague which killed all of the men.  The women figured out a way
>to fertilize each other.  A long time later, a "rescue team" shows
>up, consisting of some men.  They knew that there were only women
>left, and expected to be jumped all over by the women.  They showed
>up making snide remarks about how the women must be really lonely,
>etc.  But the women had no idea what they were talking about.
>
>Unfortunately, I don't remenber who wrote it or what the title was,
>but it might have been in one of the Dangerous Visions books.

"When It Changed", by Joanna Russ, a real consciousness-raiser in
'Again, Dangerous Visions'.  The women procreate by merging egg
cells, as I recall.  Not only do the women have no idea what the men
are talking about, but they are repulsed by the men's coarse
features and rough voices, and especially by their constant
implications that the women are inferior.  Leaves you with
unpleasant forbodings of the mass rape of a planet full of capable,
decent people.

------------------------------

From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Monosexual Societies.........
Date: 3 Nov 85 10:22:35 GMT

>>     If one could design one's heirs as easily as one designs a
>>house, what would they be like? The question of gender becomes a
>>small factor in a much larger universe of choice.
>
> Try Lem's "Star Diaries" to see these ideas carried out to their
> logical extreme.
>

Also much of John Varley's works, particularly the Ophiuchi Hotline
universe and (even more) "The Conglomeroid Cocktail Party".

Peter da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter
IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes
Date: 31 Oct 85 10:47:51 GMT

thornton@argon.UUCP (znac468) writes:

> Ho hum... Here is another gestalt adventure, at the expense of DR
> WHO.....
>  This is slightly more prdictable than the Star Trek episode:
>"RETURN OF THE APPLEING MACHINE WITHIN" (the last attempt) and
>relates to so many episodes that naming it would be a shame.
>Honestly, I do like DR WHO!

So do I. You've forgotten the two most important archetypal
lines, though.

1) Doctor's companion - "Look out, behind you, Doctor!"
   (Rubber monster, Mechanoid, Dalek, etc. lumbers into view)

2) The Doctor - "If I reverse the polarity and give it all we've got,
   it might just work..." (Last ditch Finagle gadget blasts
   rubber monster, mechanoid, Dalek, etc. into its component quarks)

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Getting published
Date: 30 Oct 85 01:02:04 GMT

ins_amap@jhunix.UUCP (Mark Aden Poling) writes:
>The booklet Amazing is putting out on writing SF strikes me as a
>tract on how to write stuff that George Scithers might like.

Well, yes, but George (who also wrote the original for IASFM when he
was editor there) knows what he is talking about. He is also by far
the best market for a new editor (followed by IASFM -- unless
Gardner Dozois changes policies radically). The hardest seem to be
F&SF and Analog -- it seems rather rare that either publishes the
first story by anyone

Anyway, other resources for the aspiring writer would have to
include the monthly rag 'Writers Digest', which is the best place to
keep track of the writing market in general. It also has a lot of
useful articles on technique and is a good place to have drooping
morale rebuilt. The 1986 Writers Guide is now out, with addresses
and needs of all of the known magazines, book publishers, and agents
out there -- a must if you are serious about publishing because some
of the best places to publish are ones you probably haven't heard of
yet. They also usually have a number of articles on how to get
started in that book, and how to get better.  Writers digest also
usually comes out with one or two special issues a year on
freelancing, so keep an eye out for them.

For more specific (and usually up to date) information on the SF
market, track down Locus, the resident Hugo winning semi-prozine.
Also, I believe the SFWA magazine (available to outsiders, I
believe) has market information as well.

>       (Has anyone noticed that, once one has assigned a story to
>the loving care of the US Postal System, one becomes a nervous
>wreck?  Not to mention all the worries over what those mean nasty
>editors are going to *DO* to the poor thing.  Or even the
>pre-response depression over the aniticipated rejection slip.

Very few editors are nasty. If you've ever found yourself in the
middle of a slush pile, you'll see why they sometimes get a bit
short tempered. If you think a writer has it bad, imagine an editor
having to read the equivalent of two weeks of net.flame to find a
buyable story. Last I heard, most magazines were buying 1 out of
about 100 manuscripts, and some markets (like playboy and Better
Homes and Gardens) are about 1 out of 10,000. At the best of times,
it isn't a good bet. All you can do is put experience on your side.
Write, write, and rewrite...  A quick hint -- the anxieties don't
get better with experience. With luck, you learn to cope. If not,
you stop writing.

>Why does anyone do it?)

You write because you have to, of course...

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Chambana
Date: 31 Oct 85 08:14:00 GMT

Someone asked a while ago about ChamBanacon, but I didn't save the
address.  Here's the compressed info.  I am not connected in any way
with the con (I'm not even going -- going home instead).

Nov. 29-Dec. 1 (usual Thanksgiving weekend), at the Chancellor Hotel
(same place as usual, used to be a Ramada), 1501 S. Neil St.,
Champaign, Il. 61820.
  There will be another convention at the hotel the same weekend --
you MUST make room reservations early!  Registration: checks should
be made out to/sent to CHAMBANACON, P. O. Box 2908, Springfield, Il.
62708.  Con-Com: M. David and Marsha Brim at same address in
Springfield (SASE if reply needed).  Huckster Room Chair: Rusty
Hevelin, Box 112, Dayton, OH 45401 -- (513) 236 0728.  Space limited
to 22 tables.  Art chair: Jhondo Oakenshield, 807 Oakcrest,
Champaign, IL 61820.  Original art only, can be accepted by mail.
Banquet: total limit 65.  Linguini w/ meat sauce, Seafood Newburg,
roast turkey with sage dressing (of course!), salads, vegetables,
and cherry turnovers.  Film/video chair: Penny Watkins, c/o com-con
addr -- suggestions accepted gladly.  Weapons: DON'T, with a mundane
convention in the same hotel.  Edged weapons should be peace sealed,
blasters, etc., kept discreet.

For more info, you can e-mail me, or call the appropriate people.

Tim McDaniel; CSRD at the Silicon Prairie
(Center for Supercomputing Research and Development at the
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign)

Internet: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
(Or try: mcdaniel%uicsrd.csrd@uiuc.edu)
(Arpa, for old mailers: mcdaniel@Uiuc.arpa)
Usenet: ...{pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!mcdaniel
Bitnet: MCDANIEL AT UIUCVMD

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Locus
Date: 1 Nov 85 05:45:53 GMT

>    Anyone have current information on how to get a subscription to
>Locus?

Locus Publications
P.O. Box 13305
Oakland, CA 94661

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 85 08:37 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: A few years ago...

As an effort to identify SF-Lovers at conventions, since not
everyone has their name tattooed on their forehead, I and my
Macintosh, are willing to create the necessary designs and print T
shirts and/or buttons.  The T shirts are of the iron-on variety (as
opposed to the silk screen method which costs more and lasts longer)
and the buttons are of the finest quality (i.e. Badge-A-Minit).
Both can be done in colors with a bit more work.

Current ideas are to revive the old format, an @ sign, as an
SF-Lover identifying mark.  I have made a few buttons with the
complete Arpa address, but I can make them with your specific path
and/or return path on it too. Ideas are welcome, and I would hope to
meet someone from the net at the con in SF on the 16th & 17th.
Remember, DeForest Kelley will be there.

Write me if you are interested or have ideas, questions, comments,
or directed insults.

Jon Pugh
pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa

PO Box 5509 L-561       <work>
Livermore, CA 94550
(415) 423-4239

770 Chippewa Way        <home>
Livermore, CA 94550
(415) 449-1436

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 85 0956-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #428
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 428

Today's Topics:

            Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Ellison & Lessing &
                    MacCaffrey & Ryan & Zelazny &
                    Mono Sex Societies,
            Films - Lifeforce,
            Television - Robotech & Star Trek,
            Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!jeanne@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Uplift War
Date: 1 Nov 85 18:02:01 GMT

Henry_P._Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA writes:

>     What is the latest on the Uplift War by David Brin.  The last
>news I read was it would be out in April.  Is this still true?

No, it's not.  I spoke to Brin at his autograph party at Change of
Hobbit last Saturday, and he said "The Uplift War" has been delayed
till next fall by 2 books that will be coming out before it--one is
his collaboration with Greg Benford (sorry, I can't remember the
exact title, but it's about rendezvousing with a comet), and a short
story collection (which will have three stories never before seen).

Jeanne Douglas
UCLA Computer Science
(jeanne@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 85 09:13:17 PST (Monday)
Subject: "The Postman" by David Brin
From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA

     "The Postman" by David Brin.  Published November 1985.  Hardback.

     *****  minor spoiler *****

     One of the things I liked about "The Postman" were the
messages.  Gordon is looking for security at first.  Then he learns
to accept responsibility as part of the price of freedom.  And
finally starts calling others to responsibility.  "Sundriver" and
"Startide Rising" are better, but this is good.

     Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Nov 85 20:58 CST
From: Jerry Bakin <Bakin@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Twilight Zone on 8 November & Harlan Ellison

The twilight zone on Friday should be excellent.  It features
"Paladin of the Lost Hour", an Ellison short story.  (I'm sorry I
can't be sure of the title, I believe that was it.)

I heard Harlan Ellison read this on "Hour Twenty Five" (an LA
Pacifica radio show) around June or May.  The story was excellent,
at the time I had no knowledge of Harlan's connection with Twilight
Zone, and I remember thinking this was definitely the next Nebula or
Hugo winner.

I haven't seen it published anywhere since then, this may be the
first time it has been seen?

The night of the first of the new Twilight Zone episodes, I heard
Ellison (again on Hour Twenty Five) discussing some of the
adaptations.  Only a few changes, none because of censorship, but
some to make it more amenable to the medium.  He fought (naturally,
hmm?) a few network censors to allow some of the original lines
untouched, but he did make the comment that none of these fights
were too difficult, because even the censors saw the importance of
the story and lines, and because they were as eager as anyone to
help the new Twilight Zone.

Anyway, this should be good.  If the TV presentation is one tenth
the reading, this will win an Emmy (sp?).  On the other hand, if it
is not as good as the reading, I will be disappointed, as I would
rather see Harlan Ellison read it himself!

No review, no spoilers, see it for yourself.

Jerry Bakin.

------------------------------

From: royt@gatech.CSNET (Roy M Turner)
Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing
Date: 3 Nov 85 19:56:24 GMT

Hullo...

I have read all (I think) of these books.  They are (despite the
review I just read in reply to your posting) quite good; I was not
put off by the "I am telling an important story" attitude, since 1)
I didn't really feel that it was present, and 2) she IS telling an
important story.  That it isn't a new slant escaped me, too...I
really hadn't read anything similar to the first one, and
*certainly* nothing similar to the rest, with the exception of _The
Sentimental Agents_, which was reminiscent of Swift.

I would recommend reading them, but of course everyone has different
tastes!  Try 'em, you might like them! :-)

Roy

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re:  Anne McCaffrey's female characters
Date: 1 Nov 85 17:52:53 GMT

Lubkin@caip.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>Poor Anne ... To L S Chabot: look at the copyrights on Dragonquest
>and Restoree.  They're only a few years apart.  The strength of
>Lessa should have been a clue that something was amiss with
>Restoree.  She wrote Restoree with tongue in cheek, as a parody of
>that kind of book.  To her continuing chagrin, first the editors at
>Ballantine and now legions of readers take the book as a straight
>adventure story.  The cover blurbs are largely responsible I think.
>And now you're accusing her of the very attitudes she was
>lambasting in the book....

In a short conversation with Anne McCaffrey at a book signing she
said that "Restoree" started out to be a straight romance novel but
the SF elements just kind on snuck in there and took over.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: "The Adolescence of P-1": Seen it?
Date: 4 Nov 85 04:59:37 GMT

> A few years back I borrowed and read a book by Thomas P. Ryan
> entitled, "The Adolescence of P-1".  It was about a computer
> program designed to "learn" based on its input; the main character
> feeds it versions of science textbooks, literature, etc.

Actually, what it was designed to learn was how to break security
systems.  It got the science and literature on its own by looking at
phototypesetter files, after it had escaped.

Peter da Silva
UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter
IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Lord of Light
Date: 4 Nov 85 17:46:50 GMT

>jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa writes:
>I *love* the book, but there is one thing I would change: the
>annoyingly cryptic inside-out time-line.

The literary device is "in medias res".  All ancient epics (and even
newer ones--see "Paradise Lost") are constructed this way.  Homer
uses it.  Try reading the Ramayana sometime--it bounces around like
a ping-pong ball.  (Yes, if you enjoyed LOL, DO read the Ramayana.
Zelazny used a lot of it.  The monkey companion is the most obvious.
Then there are the Rakshasa...)

This was a deliberate device to simulate such an epic.  It is only
confusing to us because its use is uncommon now--and it is
unexpected.  I'm glad he did it--it really added something, and was
a mark of real craftsmanship.

Does anyone know of any other sf that uses this?  One would think
that it would go well with fantasy.
                                     Sue Brezden
                                     ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Nov 85 11:11:50 EST
From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: mono sex societies

andy <A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa> writes:
> what's the feasability of taking genes from two females
> and combining them together,

The main problem at this point is how to initiate the process of
multiplication/specialization which the zygote begins subsequent to
fertilization (embryogenesis).  Lots of work has been done with
inserting individual chromosomes into some cells of blastulas, as
well as with the creation of individuals(?)  with mosaic heredity
[look this up in Science Index under "chimera"; there's *lots*,
mostly done with mice.  One of the experts whom I respect on this is
at Indiana University.  IU and U of Penn are the institutions where
some of the most significant work in this field has been done.]
Once the problem of initiating embryogenesis (in *mammals*)
following insertion of foreign DNA by some means other than
penetration by a spermatid has been solved, the rest is gravy.

> I realise that only female children could be born this way (YY
> chromsone?)

XX chromOsoMeS [Sometimes I wonder if spelling is on the X
chromosome.  Then I remember my <female> mentor's problems with it.]

> and this leads me to the main thrust of the question.  What would
> a society be like if all repRoduction (or most) was done this way
> since the society would consist entirEly of females.  What would
> be the role of males? would they be kept as pets?  revEred? or
> treated as equals Any one know of any stories based on this?

Clearly, you are not familiar with the work of "James Tiptree Jr."
A famous short story which believeably characterizes such a society
is "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?"  Amusingly, one of the
characters in the story is "an andy".  Another less well-known, but
(to me) equally good short story of a mono-sexual human society,
also by Tiptree (Alice Sheldon) is "Your Haploid Heart."  I heartily
recommend it for pathos, poignancy, empathy, drama...

There's also, of course, Ursula LeGuin's _Left Hand of Darkness_.

> Any ideas on the feasability, society, role of men.

I think it's pretty clear you'd all be redundant, love.  But don't
worry.  None of it's coming soon, if at all.  And I think most of us
fems would opt to keep you as pets--that's how many of us have felt
about it for a long time, anyway.
                                        Playfully,
                                        Paula

------------------------------

From: duts!shiva@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: LIFEFARCE Rebuttal
Date: 1 Nov 85 22:23:02 GMT

>       Has anyone seen that 'sci-fi' film LIFEFORCE ?
>       You know, 'Beyond space they found something fairly
>horrible (but it couldn't act)'. It is so bad it is almost good.
>
> Most of the film was actually ... bad ........ being an excuse for
> Mathilda May to wander around naked for three-quarters of the
>film.
>               As witnessed by:R.Ramsay
>                               Ashvin Patel
>                               Anthony Flynn
>                               Carlos Sarno
>                               Andy Thornton.

Gentlemen:

  I take exception to your scathing review. I did not find it bad at
all.  In fact I thought it was a fine example of horror-sf films,
better then 98% of the garbage movies in that category.

The special effects were quite good, especially the corpses turning
to dust, and the wonderful shots of the destruction of London (not
that I have anything against London - splendid city, one of my
favorites). The alien ship was truly alien, and the aliens were
chilling.

I also found the story to be quite a good one of it's type (alien/
vampire), and believe that most sf lovers and vampire fanciers would
find it internaly consistent and interesting. The ending was
certainly not entirely predictable.

As for the acting, well certainly no Oscars here, but it was
adequate.  Personally I am of the opinion that the movie was
directed in a somewhat stylized fashion. (Witness the opening scenes
- we jump right into the midst of the action and waste no time in
getting to the point - I rather liked that, no boring exposition
about points obvious to any sf fancier). Therefore I believe that to
a certain extent the acting was also rather stylized, especially on
the part of Peter Firth, and that it was so on purpose. But enough
of this essay.

I would pay $5 for this movie if I were a sf/horror fan. (As I am)

P.S.
Even if the movie *was* just an excuse for Mathilda May to slink
around naked and look seductively menacing I would still pay $5.
Maybe more.  Probably more.  In fact, I think I'll buy the
tape...
                                          Shiva, Amdahl

------------------------------

From: birtch!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Pipkins x257)
Subject: Re: Robotech
Date: 2 Nov 85 07:49:04 GMT

>       Has anyone ever heard of   Robotech?
> It just recently started playing here in the afternoons, and....
> I'm hooked.
>
> Some questions I have:
>
>       1. Is it new

No! I've seen the entire series from the centrani (sp) to the
invids(sp) and it ended in July or some past time.

>       2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I
>          get it?)

I don't know. But Heavy Metal magazine (I got them all except issue
#2, May 1977, because it wasn't available on the west coast) offers
a video tape (perhaps more). (Heavy Metal, Dept. 985, 635 Madison
Ave., New York, NY, 10032).

>       3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it
>          besides me?

I have and consider it the best animated series on Los Angeles TV in
many years.  All the elements I want in that type of series is
present.

>       I would love to hear from anyone having ANY info on this
>       animated sf series.

Me too.  Reply via E-mail or here.

John Pipkins
...!trwrb!scgvaxd!felix!birtch!john

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@caip.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold)
Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes
Date: 2 Nov 85 12:25:30 GMT

Some years ago, some humorist at TV Guide amused himerself by
summarizing Star Trek for several weeks as "The Enterprise
encounters a seemingly idyllic planet, but Captain Kirk senses all
is not well."  This was followed by several weeks of episodes
summarized as "The Enterprise gets into trouble and only Captain
Kirk can save it."

Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Sun 3 Nov 85 02:23:09-PST
From: Roger Crew <CREW@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Time Travel

Strictly speaking, velocities are relative.  There is a fix,
however.

One of the discoveries that accompanied that of the 3-degree
background radiation (...think of it as stray photons left over from
the Big Bang...) was the fact that there is a measureable doppler
shift in this radiation.  That is, it is possible to measure the
velocity of the earth with respect to the ``primordial fireball.''
Once we do that, we can ascribe velocities to the sun, the center of
our galaxy, etc...

Thus we have, in some sense, a universal frame of reference, with
respect to which the idea of an absolute velocity vector makes
sense.  One could point at a certain part of the sky, say that the
earth is heading that way and say that, 100 years from now, we'll
``be'' a certain distance from here in that direction...  This works
provided we keep the times/distances small enough (cosmologically)
that the notion of frames of reference still applies (i.e., don't
try to say anything about where we'll be 10^9 years from now).

Note that the idea of absolute location is still meaningless.

None of this saves Gregory Benford, however, since the 3-degree
radiation wasn't discovered until 1967; his physicist at UCwherever
in 1962 wouldn't have known anything about it....

        Roger Crew  <crew@su-sushi.arpa>

------------------------------

From: duts!shiva@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass
Date: 1 Nov 85 21:52:35 GMT

> From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
> Is it the case that the center of mass of the universe doesn't
> move?  Is is (theoretically) possible to calculate our
> position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving point?

On the contrary, the center of mass of the universe must move, since
all the masses in it are constantly moving. Mass is constantly being
redistributed hence the center of mass has to move *with respect to
any other mass*. It does not make sense to talk about the center of
mass moving with respect to anything else, because there is no
absolute frame of reference (thanks to Dr. Einstein).

As to calculating our velocity with respect to the center of mass at
any one instant, well, wouldn't you have to know the position of
every other mass in the universe at that instant? You can't do this
because of the speed of light (even assuming you could accumulate
all that information in some computer) which will only tell you
where any particular mass was sometime in the past.

Now, having said all this, this is sf-lovers after all, so anything
is possible...
                                          Shiva, Amdahl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Nov 85 1026-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #429
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 429

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Hogan & Ryan & Saberhagen &
                    The Greening of Mars & End of the World Stories,
            Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & Star Trek &
                    The Magic of Special Effects
            Miscellaneous - Getting Published (2 msgs) & Typos


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: inmet!porges@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 2 Nov 85 23:25:00 GMT

THIS CONTAINS MORE SPOILER INFO FROM "ROBOTS AND EMPIRE":

    Will Daneel be around at the end of Asimov's time line, in the
sequel to "Foundation's Edge"?  Think a bit earlier: if Hari Selden
turns out to be a robot, you'll hear me cackling with satisfaction
at having guessed it now, even though I hate the idea for aethetic
reasons.
    Oh, yeah -- the Mule could read minds and affect emotions,
couldn't he?  You don't suppose...

Don Porges
...harpo!inmet!porges
...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!porges
...yale-comix!ima!inmet!porges

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Nov 85 17:16:00 MST
From: e-smith@utah-cs.ARPA (Eric L. Smith)
Subject: James P. Hogan:  _The Proteus Operation_

I, too, consider this to be his greatest work to date.  It never
ceases to amaze me how he can start with a simple explanation of
affairs and keep adding complicated details throughout a book (or
trilogy) without any holes or inconsistancies (that I can find).  I
highly recommend it!  (And I can't stand most historical fiction!)

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Adolescence of P-1
Date: 4 Nov 85 19:38:38 GMT

I'm sure I saw copies of "Adolescence of P-1" at the local Walden
Books just the other day (in trade paperback).  Ask your bookstore
to check "Books in Print" again.  There's always the used book
stores.  It shows up at Mile High Comics in Boulder quite often.

Actually, the program learns to survive and grow without it's
creator's help.  It is originally just a simple learning program
that likes to grab disk space.  There is some kind of catastrophe.
He thinks it is wiped out.  It then comes back years later and says
"Hi" to him.  Seems that the various bad things that happen to it
teach it to grow and live--it has been essentially mutated.  I
always thought that was the best part of the book--that it was a
sort of natural selection that produced it--and not just superior
programming.
                                     Sue Brezden
                                     ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Nov 85  15:55 EDT
From: RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: RE:Man in the Rubble

     In a prior memo I stated that the "Book of Swords" trilogy
spanned 2 millenia, they do not. They span approx. 20 yrs. The
reason for confusion is that some of the characters are from a book
pre-dating this trilogy called "The Empire of the East" (also by
Saberhagen). The "Sword" trilogy offers a conclusion to previous
events.

Aaron W.
RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

------------------------------

Subject: The Greening of Mars
Date: 05 Nov 85 10:45:27 EST (Tue)
From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA

``The Greening of Mars'' by James Lovelock and Michael Allaby

Lovelock is, well, an inventor.  He is famous for a couple of things
-- one being predicting that Viking would find no life on Mars
because the atmosphere of Mars is in chemical equilibrium (which the
atmosphere of the Earth most definitely is NOT).  The second was
originating (with Lynn Margolis of BU) the theory (known as the Gaia
Hypothesis) that, over the history of the earth, living things have
adjusted the atmosphere to preserve its suitability for living
things.  Some evidence he cites for this is the stability of the
Earth's surface temperature since the emergence of life, despite the
fact that the Sun has grown steadily warmer in that time.

Allaby is a science writer for the BBC.

``The Greening of Mars'' is a utopian novel, told as a history of
the terraforming of Mars in the form of informal lectures given by a
Martian diplomat to the passengers on a Earth-Mars ship.  The trip
is too expensive to be two way, so her audience is composed
primarily of likely colonists.

Freon, and related chemicals, it turns out, are about 1000 times
more effective than carbon dioxide at producing a greenhouse effect.
The terraforming of Mars is accomplished principally through
atmospheric chemistry.  You raise the temperature using a few tons
of freon to get a suitable greenhouse effect (the freon is delivered
using Minuteman missles lashed together into multi-stage rockets --
having disarmed, we don't need them any more...).  The increased
temperature evaporates the dry-ice snow, putting CO2 into the
atmosphere, increasing the greenhouse effect yet more AND increasing
the atmospheric pressure.

What about the ozone layer, you ask?  Well, Lovelock claims that
more recent studies have shown that the affect on the ozone layer of
flourocarbons is actually pretty minimal, and that some
flourocarbons actually serve to INCREASE the ozone layer.

Along with the freon, the missles deliver payloads of spores of
algae and lichens from the high desert of Antarctica.  These
bacteria and algae may be able to survive the (still pretty cold)
Martian greenhouse, and they do a couple of things.  They are dark,
so they decrease the albedo of Mars, making it absorb yet more heat
from the sunlight, and they begin crunching Martian rocks to make
soil (in a process that will take centuries).  Their short-term use
is for their albedo-reducing powers.  The soil producing side-effect
is nice, and the delay may not be that important, because it will
probably be centuries before human habitation expands to the
remotest parts of Mars...

Okay, so now the Martian summer gets regularly above 0 degrees C.,
and almost all of the CO2 is part of the atmosphere, so the air
pressure at the Martian surface is about the same as at 23000 feet.
The atmosphere is almost pure CO2, but now humans can move around on
the surface with just oxygen masks, not pressure suits.  This
transformation has taken just a few years from the dropping of the
first freon canister.

Now you move there and start farming.  You'll have to enrich the
soil you farm with chemical fertilizers and manure, of course,
because the algae and lichens can't have had much effect in just a
few years.  You'll also have to always wear an oxygen mask when you
venture out doors, but you'll be able to live (in fact, since the
soil of Mars is rich in pernitrates, highly oxidized substances that
will liberate oxygen at room temperature, if your oxygen mask fails,
you may be able to survive for a short period until rescued by
spreading out your clothes on the ground and lying beneath them,
breathing the oxygen that is liberated by your body heat).

Anyway, the most interesting thing I've read about since Carl
Sagan's space colonies at L-5.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Nov 85  17:58 EDT
From: RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: RE:MITR

     Modifications to the MITR list by Trevor Flory should
include...  author of "Radix" is A. A. Attanasio.  "Hiero's Journey"
is the first book in a trilogy(so far).

Aaron W.
RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA

------------------------------

From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 4 Nov 85 02:31:54 GMT

        Well all you cynics, I hope you all saw NBC's Amazing
Stories on November 3rd. The episode, "The Mission", is surely one
of the best hours of television to be seen yet this season!

        Briefly, the story is about the crew of a WWII bomber.
During a rather nasty mid-air collision with debris, the plane's
landing gear is destroyed and one of the crew members is trapped in
the belly gun turret. The episode, directed by Steven Spielberg, was
swiftly paced and drew to a completely unexpected climactic ending.
Spielberg, working without little kids and cardboard parents, gave
us a story charged with true emotion and real suspense. All along we
just knew that Jonathan would get out the turret alive, but how was
a complete mystery. Anyone out there who claims to have figured out
the ending before it happened is going to be lying. It was THAT
amazing.
        The character development in the story was much better than
I have come to expect from a TV show. I felt myself feeling the
frustration and helplessness of the crew. And when that landing gear
finally came down, I felt a rush of relief and happiness. A truly
wonderful story.

        For those of us who held out a hope that Spielburg would get
this series going, the wait was worth it. I know that it's too much
to ask to have a story of this calibur every week, but this episode
makes you want to.

Edward C. Bennett
UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward

------------------------------

From: ihlpg!roger1@caip.rutgers.edu (Mills)
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 4 Nov 85 17:40:05 GMT

>       Well all you cynics, I hope you all saw NBC's Amazing
> Stories on November 3rd. The episode, "The Mission", is surely one
> of the best hours of television to be seen yet this season!

I saw this episode, and was very disappointed.  The first 55 minutes
was some of the greatest television that I have ever seen.  The last
five minutes sucked.  After all the effort to make it as realistic
and horrifying as possible, to have a cartton ending is despicable.

I guess it's my fault, I should have known better than to be
watching television anyway.

Roger L. Mills
ihlpg!roger1

------------------------------

From: fishkin@degas.BERKELEY.EDU (Ken &)
Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes
Date: 5 Nov 85 04:56:34 GMT

barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) writes:
>Some years ago, some humorist at TV Guide amused himerself by
>summarizing Star Trek for several weeks as "The Enterprise
>encounters a seemingly idyllic planet, but Captain Kirk senses all
>is not well."  This was followed by several weeks of episodes
>summariced as "The Enterprise gets into trouble and only Captain
>Kirk can save it."

There are also any number of episodes in which a variant of the
following exchange occurs:
   Kirk: "What *is* it, Mr. Spock?"
   Spock: "A Strange Blend of Matter and Energy, unlike anything
     we've ever seen before"

Off the top of my head: 1) the big amoeba thing, 2) Apollo, 3) the
rock creature that ran the contest between good & evil, 4) the
spirit of Jack the Ripper, 5) the creature that smelled of honey
that Kirk was obsessed with

Ken Fishkin
Berkeley Computer Graphics Lab
ucbvax!fishkin
fishkin@berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 85 15:32 PST
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
Subject: NOVA (week of Nov. 5th) THE MAGIC OF SPECIAL EFFECTS
To: ASD.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA, GNOSIS.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA
To: {ate.a/okuma ate.r/chestnut ate.k/jones acs.j/rondell
To: acs.b/stermer}ONTYME@OFFICE-1
To: RM.COR@OFFICE-1.ARPA, AMZ.COR@OFFICE-1.ARPA
To: ATE.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA

Starting tonight (consult your local papers) NOVA (PBS) will have a
show on special effects.  The description from SCIENCE NEWS is:

   Reveals the art of illusion, Hollywood-style, focusing on three
   blockbuster films -- "Return Of The Jedi," "Indiana Jones and the
   Temple of Doom" and "2010: The Year We Make Contact."

Enjoy,

Bi

------------------------------

From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Getting PUblished--A Personal History
Date: 1 Nov 85 21:56:56 GMT

In answer to Mark A. Poling's questions about getting published in
the SF field: the way to do it is to do it!  Trite as it sounds, one
must keep on until something clicks.

I first sent an SF story to Fred Pohl in Galaxy days, and he was
kind enough to send it back quickly, with a written note on the
manuscript.  I was not smart enough to be encouraged, so I stopped
trying for several years, and began to attempt articles--for FATE,
for fanzines, for UFO magazines.  And, in those fields with much
lower standards, I began to get published!  Eventually, I sold one
article to FATE and got paid!  This turned me on again, and I tried
SF off and on for several years, collecting form letter rejections
from HJohn W. Campbell and Ben Bova.  Finally, I wrote letters to
Brass Tacks in Analog and Bova printed all of those, so I made it
into ASF even though I didn't get paid.  Meanwhile, I kept doing
articles about UFOs, ESP, firewalking, etc., that did sell.  Once I
even helped edit and publish a one-issue magazine called ASTROLOGY
PLUS! and there put in my own story and several articles.

Continuing...finally sent a poem to Scithers in 1979 and he
published it in the January 1980 issue of Isaac Asmov's SF
magazine--"Rime of the Ancient Engineer," a terribly lovely pun
poem.  Within weeks I submitted and sold a novelty thing to Ben
Bova--"SF Table of Elements" that was in the June 1981 Omni, and
finally in 1982 sold some short funny things to Stan Schmidt at
Analog.  Was I in heaven-I had made the magazine I had loved for so
many years, and getting paid, to boot.  Had the ASF formula down
pat.

No such luck.  Stan bounced several of my funniest things.  Found
the best indication I had of the saleability of stories was to
submit them to a friend of Analog leanings for comment. So far, what
he's said will sell, does, and vice versa.  I've learned to trust
him. Find yourself a literate friend and 'do likewise, is my advice.

And finally--in 1983 Schmidt asked me to submit something for the
mid-Dec.  1984 spoof issue; I did, and he bought one of the three I
sent to him.  That was the last so far, although we are negotiating
the editing of a novella (serious) that he partially likes.

On the other hand, my friend P. M. (Pete) Fergusson, down in
Clarksville, IN, sold a poem to Schmidt a couple of years ago, and
then the very next story, a novelette, got a cover! (Gertrude,
?1985, I think; and two subsequent follow up stories.  Pete's got
"Snapshot of the Soul" in the current ASF, a story I started to
write five years ago, and didn't.  Great minds, you know...)

Now, as far as waiting in agony for that thick manuscript to be
returned in your mailbox, just check into my story, "Critical Path",
that was in ASF in 1983 sometime, and rest easy--soon, it'll be over
very quyickly.

Now working on a novel, which turns out to be a hell of a lot of
work, and not nearly as much fun as short funny things.

[Schmidt: "Arlan, Analog needs short funny things, and they're hard
to find."]

[Andrews: "So we are, Stan, but at 5.75 cents per word, we can't
afford to eat enough to grow...]


arlan andrews

------------------------------

From: figmo@tymix.Tymnet (Lynn Gold)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 85 19:06:52 pst
Subject: Getting published - How to

Suggestion: there is a book that comes out each year called "The
Writers' Market."  In it is a list of pretty much every major
periodical out, how they feel about freelance writers, what they
pay, what they're looking for, and how to present yourself.  The
business of freelance writing isn't all that difficult to break
into.  If you have problems due to lack of experience, one way to
build credibility is to write for smaller, more localized
publications (local newspapers, fanzines) and develop a portfolio.
Once you've written enough, when someone asks you "What have you
done?", you can open up your folder and show your work to them.

I should note that I'm not speaking idly, but from experience.  It
has been a few years since I've done any writing-for-pay, but when I
did it on the side, I had to turn offers away because I couldn't
keep up with the demand (I was in college at the time).

Lynn Gold
UUCP: ...tymix!figmo
ARPA: FIGMO@MIT-MC.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1985 08:33:50-EST (Monday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BitNet@ucb-vax.berkeley.edu>
Subject: typoes

Well, I was reading "Brother Assassin" last night, and while I won't
bother to mention most of the typoes, there was one that can't be
ignored.  It was the one where the wizard, having summoned a demon,
casts a blinding spell to make it obey him...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Nov 85 0956-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #430
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 8 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 430

Today's Topics:

        Books - Heinlein & Weddings in SF & Feminist Authors
        Films - Sword and Sorceror (2 msgs),
        Television - Amazing Stories (4 msgs),
        Miscellaneous - Aliens & Time Travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Nov 85 17:15:22 MST
From: e-smith@utah-cs.ARPA (Eric L. Smith)
Subject: Robert A. Heinlein:  _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_

My general feeling on this is that you will like this iff you liked
_The Number of The Beast_.  Personally, I am getting incredibly
disgusted with the Lazarus Long & Company Mutual Admiration Society.
I don't really understand why Heinlein (and Asimov) see a need to
link all of their works together.  It seems only to detract from
them.  For instance, this book brings in Star and Rufo from _Glory
Road_, but only for very very minor parts.  If I hadn't just reread
_Glory Road_ a week ago, I probably wouldn't have even recognized
them.

Also, I have finally reached the point where I do not want to try to
keep rack of a mole of descendants of Lazarus.  Perhaps someone with
a better memory (or more patience) than I would care to write a
"Who's Who of Future History".

The other thing that bugs me is that I always used to like Lazarus
Long, but he seems to have become an a**hole!  Perhaps this is
intended to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to live
multiple millenia.  Also, throughout the first half of the book the
protagonists (whatever their real names are) have many discussions
about persons with poor manners having given up their right to life,
so why is Lazarus not gunned down immediately?

The multiverse has turned into a real crock anyhow.  Why don't all
the characters, who now realize that they probably *ARE* just
characters in bad S.F., just commit suicide?  I guess it's because
their writers (RAH) haven't written it in.

In conclusion, this is definitely the last RAH book I will ever buy.
Anybody want a used copy in perfect condition real cheap?

------------------------------

Date: Wed 06 Nov 1985 18:42:08 EST
From: <SORCEROR@LL.ARPA>
Subject: Query: Marriage and Weddings in SF

     Here's a somewhat offbeat story/bibliography request for all of
you SF scholars!  We are engaged to be married next spring, and are
looking for some unusual material to use in our ceremony.  Since SF
is an important element in both of our personal mythologies, we
would really like to incorporate or adapt some ideas from its
culture.  Can anyone recommend stories which portray alien wedding
customs and/or notable descriptions of "what marriage means" to
either a society or a couple?  References from either science
fiction or fantasy are equally welcome.  To consider another avenue,
does anyone know of actual wedding ceremonies which have included
such material, or ones which were deliberately crafted to celebrate
speculation and the imagination?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated!  Please send replies
directly to SORCEROR at LL.ARPA, unless you feel that this query
might interest other Digest readers.  Thanks profusely and thanks in
advance!
                         Cheers,
                         Karl Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL.ARPA)
                     and Beverly Slayton

------------------------------

From: purdue!chk@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Koelbel)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 5 Nov 85 03:03:58 GMT

> In addition, many protagnists authors wrote about mostly male (C.
> L. Moore, Leigh Brackett, Andre Norton (at least her early
> stuff))--many of these stories today might be written with a
> female protagnist, but at the time they were written the authors
> thought, at least it seems obvious that Moore and Norton thought
> so, that no one would take seriously a book by a woman--a female
> protagnist would be preposterous.  And the same is true for male
> authors: I think today you have more of an opportunity to make a
> choice about the gender of your characters--they don't have to
> translate into
>               strong, carries a sword ==> male

I have to agree with you in general - VERY few females in sword &
sorcery tales have anything resembling character.  But C. L. Moore
did write a series of stories about a woman warrior (and a good one
at that).  The stories have been collected in _Jirel_of_Joirey_
(spelling approximate).  I haven't read all of them, but the ones I
have read are excellent.  And Jirel (the heroine) is, in my opinion,
a good character.

For those of you who want more information, the setting for most
(maybe all) of the stories is Castle Joirey, a keep owned by Jirel.
The castle is unusual in that it has an entrance to Hell in the
dungeon.  Through various circumstances, Jirel is forced to enter
Hell time and again.  One unusual feature of Moore's version of Hell
is that it is not all conventional devils and demons - it is more a
psychological horror than a physical one.  It is an idea that was
way ahead of its time in fantasy short stories.
                                                Chuck Koelbel

------------------------------

From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Sword and Sorceror
Date: 4 Nov 85 17:25:49 GMT

I saw "Sword and Sorceror on 'regular' TV over the weekend and I saw
some strange things.  I never saw it in the cinema but I saw it on a
movie channel (I don't remember which one).  When it came to my
local station, I watched it for a few laughs.  I began to notice
changes in the movie.

Of course the usual hacking of the film had been done (this is what
I wanted to laugh at), but words were replaced instead of blipped.
Also whole scenes were changed.  For example at the end The hero is
nailed to the cross, but the cut version has him only strapped to
the cross.

At first I though I had gone crazy, but I have a copy of the movie
so I played it.  The scenes are different.  What is going on here?
Did they make two versions?  Can someone please explain this?

Thank you

Joland

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Re: Sword and Sorceror
Date: 6 Nov 85 15:29:12 GMT

> but words were replaced instead of blipped.  Also whole scenes
> were changed.  For example at the end The hero is nailed to the
> cross, but the cut version has him only strapped to the cross.

Yes, they did make two versions (possibly three, if they made a
version for European release, where nudity standards are less
strict).  This is becoming fairly common.  I first noticed it with
CARRIE, but as TV sales become a bigger and bigger chunk of a film's
profits, the producers are more likely to make a version for TV that
won't appear hacked up.  There are other cases of multiple
versions--CRIMES OF PASSION ran in the theaters with an R rating,
but the cassette versions that I've seen have all been the unrated
version (which was cut to make the R-rated version).  CALIGULA had
two versions, an R and an X.  So did FLESH GORDON.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: pyuxii!tw8023@caip.rutgers.edu (T Wheeler)
Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!)
Date: 4 Nov 85 13:58:59 GMT

Gee, folks, don't you remember?  The whole premise of the Hitchcock
shows was that the viewer was able to figure out the ending by
accumulating the clues.  Sure the ending can be figured out, that's
the whole idea.  I find it fun to try and predict the ending.

T. C. Wheeler

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission
Date: 6 Nov 85 14:18:15 GMT

Contrary to what edward@ukecc.UUCP (Edward C. Bennett) says, "The
Mission" was not "one of the best hours of television to be seen yet
this season!"

[If you haven't seen the episode, this may not make sense.  It will
in any case reveal the ending.]

Bennett goes on to say:
> I felt myself feeling the frustration and helplessness of the
> crew. And when that landing gear finally came down, I felt a rush
> of relief and happiness. A truly wonderful story.

While roger1@ihlpg.UUCP (Mills) says:
> I saw this episode, and was very disappointed.  The first 55
> minutes was some of the greatest television that I have ever seen.
> The last five minutes sucked.  After all the effort to make it as
> realistic and horrifying as possible, to have a cartoon ending is
> despicable.

Frankly, the whole thing reminded me of "The Cold Equations" by Tom
Godwin.  Summary/spoiler: Teenage girl stows away aboard emergency
relief spaceship which is carrying vitally needed drugs.  (She wants
to visit her brother.)  Ship has only enough fuel for pilot; girl's
weight will mean it doesn't make it.  Ship has been stripped of
everything unnecessary before takeoff.  Seemingly only choice is to
space the girl.  After much cogitation, pilot hits upon
solution...he spaces the girl.

The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and
sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings.
You can't spend all the money in your bank account and have more
magically appear.  You can't keep dumping toxic waste in your
backyard and then wish it away.  YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON
WISHES!!!  Godwin realized this and wrote a classic short story;
Spielberg either doesn't realize this or (more likely) realizes that
the public doesn't want to hear the unpleasant truth that sometimes
there's no happy ending.  So he coddles them, tells them, "There,
there, whatever you do, there will be some way to fix it up.  Just
wish hard enough and everything bad will go away."

Feh!
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: ihlpm!terry2@caip.rutgers.edu (Nelson)
Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission
Date: 6 Nov 85 20:35:24 GMT

    roger1 @ihlpg.UUCP (Mills) says:
>> I saw this episode, and was very disappointed. ...
>> .... to have a cartoon ending is despicable.

    Evelyn  @ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (Leeper) says:
> The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and
> sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings...
> YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON WISHES!!!   ......

C'mon, people!  Ease up a little!!  The name of this show is AMAZING
STORIES remember?! It seems too many people expect too much from
this show (yes, even considering all the hype).  It's not a bad show
and the stories have been amazing (interesting?, different?).  This
show, added to a "list" of other excellent shows, makes for fairly
good entertainment.

..ihnp4!ihlpm!terry2
Terry Nelson
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois

------------------------------

From: reed!agb@caip.rutgers.edu (Alexander G. Burchell)
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 6 Nov 85 10:53:37 GMT

You are missing the point.  The whole episode led up to that climax,
and although I cannot claim that I guessed how it was going to end,
after watching the ending I thought back to how this had been
foreshadowed.  The ball-turret gunner (I forget his name
unfortunately) had been depicted as one who has "got that old
imagination".  He even said that he wanted to be a cartoonist for
Disney.  And while it may have been a "cartoon ending", that again
was the idea.  What was *the last thing* you would have expected?
I'll bet that it's just what happened.

BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start out
each episode?  I was quite impressed with the realistic surface
textures and was especially amazed by the knight in shining armor.
Does anyone know if they are using the technique for generating
metal that was developed by Carlos Sequin (sp?) at Berkeley?  (I
forget the details, but it was something to the effect that light
reflecting from metal was the color of the metal, not the color of
the light, as it is for other types of surfaces [perhaps the other
way around...])

                                        Alexander G. Burchell
UUCP:..!{decvax,ucbvax,hplabs,ihnp4,zehntel}!tektronix!reed!agb
MAIL:Box 172, Reed College, 3203 SE Woodstock Dr., Portland OR 97202

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 4 Nov 85 00:41:51 GMT

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes:
>     Not that there isn't a good reason to instinctively be
>disgusted by relatively alien life-forms.  That's nature's way of
>saying "Do not touch!"
>     So most life-forms we find disgusting, but the converse is
>even more true.  Only a small part of the matter on Earth is
>connected with life- forms, yet everything disgusting is.

An interesting point, and one I think is quite valid.  But it
doesn't necessarily mean that we will find alien lifeforms
disgusting.  First, it isn't clear just what the conditions are for
us to find something disgusting.  The reaction seems to apply only
to small but dangerous creatures.  Lions, for example, tend to be
seen as beautiful.  This makes sense, because no such reaction is
needed to make us avoid them; the danger is obvious.

I think what we have is not "alien life forms are disgusting", but
"things with any of the following characteristics are disgusting",
where the list includes semi-liquidity (especially if warm), waving
feelers, stingers, etc.  So there is a reasonable chance that aliens
would not fit the pattern, and be quite unoffensive, or even
beautiful.  The opposite cannot be ruled out, however.

Frank Adams
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass
Date: 5 Nov 85 18:57:07 GMT

> As to calculating our velocity with respect to the center of mass
> at any one instant, well, wouldn't you have to know the position
> of every other mass in the universe at that instant? You can't do
> this because of the speed of light (even assuming you could
> accumulate all that information in some computer) which will only
> tell you where any particular mass was sometime in the past.

        I may regret this, but I'm going to throw two pennies into
this mess.  If we are to bandy about relativity, then it must be
recognised that any appreciable gravity well affects the "rate" at
which time flows.  Falling into a black hole has the same effect as
nearing the speed of light.  Things age slower with respect to us in
our more normal inertial frame.  Time travel will obviously involve
mucking about with relativity, since changes in the rate of flow, or
even removal from it, will also affect everything else in the
inertial frame.  If we assume that we can "break" relativity in a
localized area, such a break would still have an effect on the frame
around it.

        Therefore, I propose that the gravity well of earth would be
sufficient to "capture" the effect produced by time travel.
Basically, a traveler would remain in the same inertial frame, and
wind up in the same general vicinity as he started.  Any changes in
the inertial frame from one time to the next would cause
displacement from his point of departure.  There is also the problem
of the non- negligible effect of the moon on the earth-moon system's
center of mass, which is really what would catch said traveler, but
I'll assume it's solvable.

        Unfortunately, I still haven't come up with a good reason
why any form of time travel shouldn't involve formation of a
singularity, which we all know is a bad thing :-).

                                                        Mark!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Nov 85 1014-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #431
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 9 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 431

Today's Topics:

           Books - End of the World Stories & Genetics &
                   Feminist Authors (2 msgs),
           Films - The Brother from Another Planet &
                   Movie Request,
           Television - Robotech (2 msgs) &
                   Amazing Stories (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Man in the "Rubble"
Date: 6 Nov 85 16:57:36 GMT

I cannot avoid commenting on the recommendation for the Saberhagen
"N'th Book of Swords" (1<=N<=3).  They are followups to another,
very good book called "Empire of the East".  The premise of the book
is very SF (not Fantasy) even though the book reads as a good
Fantasy.  (I will say no more, I don't believe in major spoilers.)

Along the same lines, "Heiro's Journey" and "The Unforsaken Heiro"
by Sterling Lanier are also "man in the rubble" books that aren't
quite so glooooooomy and hopeless as most of the genre.

Both sets of books hold to the premise that man's beliefs and
actions DO matter, and that chaos, while rampant, is not necessarily
king.

(ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1985 09:24:03-EST (Thursday)
From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BitNet@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>
Subject: genetics

Another story about "Cracking the gene code" etc, is Ben Bova's
"Exiled From Earth" trilogy, about just how people may react to the
knowledge that scientists can cause children to come out anyway
anyone wants...

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 6 Nov 85 20:17:01 GMT

No discussion of females in swords and sorcery is complete without
some mentione of Joanna Russ' wonderful _The_Adventures_of_Alyx_.
These are short works which have been collected in paperback. To say
more would be a spoiler.

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax  or  norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman
BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA
US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall,
Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853
Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work)    (607)-272-7750 (home)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 85 09:21 EST
From: Jessie Tharp <ops@ncsc>
Subject: Feminism and Science Fiction

For several years, I have been reading and collecting science
fiction by and about women, in order to compile and code a list of
women science fiction authors.  I try to read a representative work
of each author and critcal analysis of her work before coding her.
This coding is based solely on personal opinion and the list is
constantly being revised and added to.  Since I am doing this for my
own enjoyment, I don't really wish to get into a firefight about it.
I would like to hear INFORMED opinion and discussion on the
treatment of women in science fiction and as science fiction
authors. I know that I have left out many writers and would welcome
recommendations.

!      exceptional treatment of women or radical feminism
+      women in non-traditional roles or exploration of roles
*      women in traditionally male roles (hunter, warrior, leader,
       etc)
-      sets women back
?      I haven't read enough of her work to form an opinion
blank  women in traditional roles

+ Lynn Abbey                 + Anne McCaffrey
+ Robin Bailey               + Vondra N. McIntyre
? Leigh Brackett             + Judith Merril
+ Marion Zimmer Bradley      ? Naomi Mitchison
  Angela Carter                C.L. Moore
! Suzy Charnas               - Janet Morris
! C.J. Cherryh               ! Andre Norton
* Jo Clayton                 + Diana L. Paxson
+ Christina DeWees           ? Doris Piserchia
+ Diane Duane                + Marta Randall
! Suzette Elgin @@           ! Joanna Russ
- Jane Gaskill               * Jessica Amanda Salmonson
- Sharon Green               * Pamela Sargent
  Zenna Henderson            ? Margaret St. Clair aka Idris Seabright
+ Phyllis Ann Karr           ? Racoona Sheldon aka Alice Sheldon
  Katherine Kurtz              Mary W. Shelley
? Simon Lang                 ? James Tiptree, Jr. aka Alice Sheldon
! Tanith Lee                 + Sydney Van Scyoc
+ Jaqueline Lictenburg       + Joan Vinge
! Elizabeth Lynn             ! Kate Wilhelm
! Ursula K. LeGuin

Men who have dealt honestly with women:

Poul Anderson - most of his books, though few major female characters
Isaac Asimov - his "juveniles"
Ray Cummings - the Tama stories
Robert Heinlein - his "juveniles"
Edgar Pangborn - "Rites of Passage"
James Schmitz - everything
E.E. "Doc" Smith - the Skylark series
Stanley  G. Weinbaum - "The Black Flame"
Philip Wylie - "The Disappearance"

------------------------------

From: utcsri!kato@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kitamura)
Subject: Re: Favorite Villians (spoiler)
Date: 4 Nov 85 00:28:02 GMT

> I just saw "The Brother from Another Planet". Folks, this movie is
> actually good Science Fiction! There are two characters here that
> are probably the first believable aliens I've seen on the screen.
> I'm talking about the two bad guys...

And the main `bad guy' is actually the director John Sayles.

John Kitamura/University of Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 85 09:22 EST
From: Jessie Tharp <ops@ncsc>
Subject: What movie is this?

I'm looking for a movie.  This is as much as I can remember about
it.  I think it was a Robert Altman movie and it stared Paul Newman.
I think it was titled after a game played obsessively, and often
fatally, in the movie.  Ice had covered the earth, and all life was
dying out.  There were no more births.  Enter Paul Newman and a
young, pregnant girl.  While journeying to the City Newman had fled
years earlier, they are set upon by gameplayers and the girl is
killed.  He continues on to the City to seek revenge.  While there,
he becomes involved in a Game Session and, many betrayals and deaths
later, emerges the Grand Master.  He quits the City and heads back
out into the snowy wastes, alone.  Overhead, a solitary bird flies
out of sight.  I remember seeing a street sign in the City that made
me think it was in South America somewhere.  Sometimes I think I
hallucinated the whole movie.  Does it sound familiar to anyone out
there?

Jessie Tharp-Perkins (ops@ncsc)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 85 17:34:41 est
From: Joe Turner <@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA,@umass-boston.CSNET:cutter@hub>
Subject: RoboTech

_Robotech_ is not new. It is a conglomeration of three Japanese
animated SF shows.

"Macross" came out in 1982, and was an instant hit on Japanese
television.  It spawned a sequel, "Orguss", around 1983/4; another
hit for Tatsunoko Productions, and another sequel, "Southern Cross".
All three shows came to be known collectively as the "Super
Dimension" trilogy, because of the subtitles for each of the shows
("Super Dimension Fortress Macross", "Super Dimension Century
Orguss", "Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross").

At LACon II, Harmony Gold USA premiered a tape for home-video called
"MACROSS", which consisted of an english-language dubbing of the
first three episodes of "Macross". It was well-received, and the
tape hit the stores and sold well. There were rumors of a TV series.

About a year ago, a story made its way along the east-coast Japanese
animation grapevine that Carl Macek (a high-mucky-muck at Harmony
Gold and a Japanimation fan) had bought the rights to "Mospeada" and
"Southern Cross", and was dubbing them. We all held our breaths,
coming straight from the disappointment of "Voltron" (now referred
to as "Revolt-tron", "Voltrash", etc.). Around spring of '85,
"RoboTech" began to show in California and other locations.

I won't go into a plot synopsis because it's *much* too complicated.
For the moment, I'll say that it has a bit of everything in it,
heavy on the hardware and love-interests. Nasty aliens, lots of
"protoculture", and F-14's that have arms and legs. That's an unfair
synopsis, but you probably get the idea.  At 84 episodes, with 40
more on the way and a feature-film coming for Xmas this year
("RoboTech: The Untold Story", a.k.a. "MegaZone Two-Three"), it'd
take quite a few paragraphs... but for now:

An alien ship crashes on Earth in the year 1990 and is rebuilt by
earth's scientific community. The ship automatically fires at the
enemy (known as Zentradi) and warps itself to the vicinity of Pluto
--- all during the launching ceremonies! The ship has to make its
way back to Earth, fighting Zentradi assaults, and try to stop them
from taking over earth. I won't spoil it any more, but it has an
interesting ending... and then there's the other two shows, of
course, with *their* own plots...

The shows are imaginative, and far above most American television
(save for "Twilight Zone" and one or two others). The fact that it's
animated may scare some adults off, which is a shame. The animation
quality is *excellent*, and the voices are incredible. Move over,
StarBlazers! Stand aside, Battle of the Planets! "RoboTech" is here,
and it looks like to stay!

Harmony Gold, by the way, is also responsible for "Captain Harlock
and the Queen of 1,000 Years"... this has it's merits, in that it
has the same level of intelligence that "RoboTech" has. However,
"Space Pirate Captain Harlock" had only 45 episodes - not enough for
a syndi show; same for "Queen of 1,000 Years" - it had 26 episodes.
Together, however, they make 71 - enough to release it into
syndication. They are two different shows, but have been interweaved
plot-wise; sometimes it works, most times it doesn't. Both shows
were done by the same animation house (Toei Animation, who brought
us "Star- Blazers" a.k.a. "Space Cruiser Yamato") and the same
character designer, so it "looks" right... it's not on in some
areas, however. It's enjoyable to watch it for the characters and
the plots of the individual shows. Give it a shot.

If you are interested in more information about these or any other
animated or japanese-animated shows, send mail to:

ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa OR cutter@UMB.csnet

                                        Animatedly,
                                                Joe Turner
network:cutter@UMB.csnet;
        ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa
USPS:   329 Ward Street;
        Newton Centre, MA;
        02159
phone: 617/969-5993

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 85 17:34:10 est
From: Joe Turner <@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA,@umass-boston.CSNET:cutter@hub>
Subject: Oh yes.

I forgot to mention, "RoboTech" is out in comic form in the U.S.,
from Comico. The stuff is really terrible, though. Your best bet is
to pick up the Japanese photonovels, or "Anime [a'-ni-may] Comics"
at a specialty bookstore or comics shop... such as Million-Year
Picnic in Boston, or Forbidden Planet books in NY, or Kinokuniya
Books & Records in NY.
                                                Joe Turner

------------------------------

From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Amazing Stories - 11/5 - thoughts on suspense
Date: 6 Nov 85 15:57:12 GMT

        Ok, Ok, I'll admit it. The Amazing Falsworth" was a bit
predictable. All along I suspected that the Richard Masur character
was the killer, but that important phone call threw me off. Over all
it was an interesting variation on the ol' catch-the-killer idea.

        Which brings me to another idea. While watching "Alfred
Hitchcock Presents" last night I got to thinking about the
'whodunit' aspect of these shows. In case you missed it, AHP was
about this girl who was being harrassed on the phone. Through the
window of her apartment she can see a new neighbor watching her. She
makes the incorrect assumption that the caller is the same man who
she can see. She winds up killing the man she can see, only to find
out after she has murdered him that the caller is someone else.
        About a third of the into the show, it occured to me that we
never saw the man she could see actually make the phone calls.
Which made me wonder, "does the director want us to figure things
out?". Think about it, if we are allowed to determine the conclusion
I think it builds the suspense because we can watch the main
character walk right into danger. If we don't know the outcome yet,
our sense of impending doom can't work on us.
        A lot of people having been complaining that they 'figured
out' the plots of these shows. I think that's what we're supposed to
do. Remember "Ellery Queen"? you couldn't figure things out until he
started explaing the crime. And it usually a hinged on one tiny
detail that was easy to miss. The point here was to make you feel
the confusion the investigator felt. The director was challenging
you to determine the outcome. With "AHP", Hitchcock wanted you to
know the key detail so he could use it against you to create
suspense.
        In Sunday's AS, we couldn't foresee the (albeit wierd)
ending.  We knew that Johnathan would be saved but we didn't know
how. Fine, one kind of suspense. In Tuesday's AS, we knew (or at
least suspected) that the star was in the hands of the killer all
the time. We could see the danger but he couldn't. Again, fine,
another kind of suspense.

        To wrap this up. Don't complian when you can see the end
coming. You're SUPPOSED to see it!

Edward C. Bennett
UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward

------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@caip.rutgers.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Computer Animation in Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 6 Nov 85 18:02:56 GMT

agb@reed.UUCP (Alexander G. Burchell) writes:
>BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start out
>each episode?  I was quite impressed with the realistic surface
>textures and was especially amazed by the knight in shining armor.

I don't know, although the credits say the titles were designed by
Ron Cobb (who is an artist, not a computer person).  Is the caveman
Ray Walston, or just someone who looks a whole lot like him?

The one thing that amazed me about the Amazing Stories episode "The
Mission" is the computer graphics, which were so good that nobody on
the net has even mentioned them!

By "so good nobody has mentioned them", I mean that they didn't bite
you on the nose and say "Hi!  We're COMPUTER GRAPHICS!  Aren't we
NEAT?!?!"  They were good enough that if you don't recognize the
hallmarks of computer graphics, you would never have spotted them.
I wonder who did them.

Come to think of it, I'm not completely certain which scenes were
computer- animated.  I know the scene of the plane landing was.  I'm
fairly certain the shot of the debris heading toward the ball-turret
gunner and the shot of the balloon tire extruding from the wing
were.  I'm almost ready to believe that every scene containing the
baloon tires (even those with human actors) was computer-animated.

However, this doesn't save the episode from its deus-ex-Disney
ending.  The episode fails dramatically (for me) because it spent 50
minutes building a gritty, nasty, realistic WWII reality, then
violated it completely for the sake of a happy ending.  I mean,
Spielberg broke the rules he'd worked so hard to establish.  Ever
read a story called "The Cold Equations?"  That was more
dramatically consistent (although depressing, and therefore anathema
to Spielberg).

After seeing this episode, my S.O. told me to remind her never to
watch Amazing Stories again.  It was that galling.  So, Tuesday I
skip it, and after it's over S.O. says "Guess what?  You missed a
GOOD Amazing Stories!"  TANJ (There Ain't No Justice)!

David D. Levine
(...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl)    [UUCP]
(teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA/CSNET]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Nov 85 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #432
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 432

Today's Topics:

           Books - Barker & Hoyle & Mono Sex Societies &
                   Square Dance in SF,
           Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) &
                   Captain Harlock,
           Miscellaneous - Aliens & Scientology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Nov 85 11:02 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Review : Flamesong by M.A.R. Barker

Flamesong  by Prof. M.A.R. Barker,  DAW Books, Sept. 1985,
pp. 412.

     Barker is one of those writers who has created the perfect
combination of fantasy and science fiction.  His world of Tekumel is
a delightfully rich tapestry unlike any other.  The depth of detail
rivals or surpasses Middle Earth or Darkover.  While basically
fantasy, elements of technology are not far under the surface,
sometimes quite literally.  Technology exists in the form of
artifacts of the Ancients, whose knowledge has been lost many tens
of millenia ago.

     Barker draws from East Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, and
MesoAmerican sources, rather than European, and his societies are
reminescent of Imperial China or Mayan civilizations.  This is not
your run-of-the-mill medieval fantasy story that so many new authors
write. A quality of strangeness is inherent.

     Barker writes about adventure and intrigue, palace plots and
pitched battles, magic and technology.  I especially enjoy the way
he describes technological artifacts in non-technological terms, as
the characters would see it.  Barker writes about complex characters
with real motivations, unusual often bizarre cultures, and stories
that won't let you put them down.  (I read this substantial book in
two days, and I work full time.)  Barker is a linguist as Tolkien
was, and it shows.  Each country has its own language, customs,
naming conventions, etc.  (e.g. At one point, the characters are
trying to figure out the nationality of a stranger from just a
name.)  For those of you who are unwilling to handle unusual names
and words -- beware, this book is full of them.

     In Flamesong, his second book, Barker tells of the adventures
of a young military officer's attempts to bring an enemy commander
home as a prisoner, while dealing with a strange form of Ancient
transport, magic, a country that still believes itself part of an
empire that fell twenty thousand years ago, and numerous other
problems that impede his progress.

     His first book, Man of Gold, (also from DAW), though very good,
was slightly marred by the attempts Barker made to introduce the
reader to his world.  Flamesong avoids this potential problem,
without losing any of the magic of the place.

     Barker has been involved with the Role-playing games industry
almost as long as Gary Gygax and D & D.  A role-playing game called
The Empire of the Petal Throne based on Tekumel, has been available
since 1975-6, and recently a new game called Swords and Glory has
been published.  Swords and Glory was written and playtested by
Barker and his two weekly gaming groups.  The sourcebook which
describes Tekumel is several hundred pages long and so full of
detail that it is mind-boggling.

     Lead miniatures for wargaming are available as well as a
bi-monthly newsletter both produced by Tekumel Games, a company that
deals exclusively with Tekumel products (address follows).

     In conclusion, I would strongly recommend Flamesong and the
earlier Man of Gold for anyone looking for unusual settings and
cultures, realistic characters, and exciting plots.  If interested
in the roleplaying aspects of Tekumel, contact :

     Tekumel Games
     Box 14630
     University Station
     Minneapolis MN 55414

Brett Slocum (Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Nov 85 14:13 CST
From: Midford@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: RE:Fred Hoyle

Once upon a time, some eight or ten years ago, I discovered Fred
Hoyle.  I still like his stuff, although it hasn't grown with me.
In fact, his stuff was some of my first sf: some people don't
understand how I could still be reading sf after that sort of intro,
but don't let that scare you off.  In some semblence of publication
order here is a list from memory of his fictional works:

The Black Cloud: His first, and many people consider his best; first
contact with a very different type of intelligence.

Ossian's Ride: The rise of and secret behind of ICE (Industrial
Corporation Erie).

October the First is Too Late: Different parts of the world are
suddenly transformed into different time periods; Europe is in the
first world war, England is in the 1960's, Greece is in the Golden
Age of Pericles, and America is in the far future, after some
several rise and fall cycles of civilization.

Seven Steps to the Sun: A man keeps losing consciousness and finding
himself transported forward 10 years. I don't remember this one too
well.

A for Andromeda: A alien civilization sends us a radio message
detailing construction of a very large computer and controlling
program.

Andromeda Breakthrough: Further adventures of the large computer and
its synthesized human servent.

Fifth Planet: Aliens hitch a ride to earth in the minds of human
explorers.

The Molecule Men: Two short novels: the first about alien polymorps,
the second connects the Loch Ness Monster with Meteorology.  The
later is one of my true favorites.

Element 79: Short story collection; a very mixed bag, some are
memorable, a few are really forgetable.

Rockets in Ursa Major: Man's first interstellar exploration brings
forth an major alien attack.

Into Deepest Space: Same universe as Rockets; time travel through a
quaser.

The Incandesent Ones: A alien secret agent; silly ending.

I think there is one other, about a supernova wiping out most of
present day civilization and the return of the clans to Scotland; I
don't remember the title.

Peter.

------------------------------

From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 7 Nov 85 19:46:09 GMT

I am glad this subject was brought up.  I had no idea so much had
been written on this subject, so I am making a list of books to
read.  I was wondering if there are any stories of this type taking
place on earth.

For example, a country or area on earth decided to use advance
technology to reproduce.  I have often thought of a story line along
this topic.  The closer I bring the time period to the present the
more trouble the characters get into.  Since I'm no writer, I would
like to read someone else's work.

Joland

------------------------------

Subject: Pointer Request: Square Dance in SF
From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer)
Date: 08 NOV 1985 03:35:00 GMT+1:00

Hi,

has anyone ever seen references to Square Dance in SF? I remember
two very short ones, both of RAH: First one in THE ROLLING STONES
(sister Meade goes to a dance), and the other one in Lazarus Long's
memoirs, TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE (in the ``western part'' where LL
founded a settlement on an undeveloped planet).

I'm asking just because I do Square Dance. (Yes, we do it over here
in Germany.)

Thank you

Ralf
#d22%ddathd21.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.EDU  (from ARPAnet)
#d22@ddathd21                         (from BITNET / EARN)
(Beware of the number sign - it's part of my User-ID)

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission
Date: 7 Nov 85 16:32:18 GMT

I think I liked this episode a lot more than a lot of you, and now I
think I know why. I think that, deep down inside, I really DO
believe that you can change external reality by "wishing hard
enough"; actually by mental force. It is just that we do not yet
know how to do it, or do it repeatably or consistently. Maybe we
need to evolve more, or be given the secret by aliens, or achieve
higher planes, or something...

Remember that I was the one who attacked an earlier Amazing Stories
for unscientific portrayal of meteorite impacts, and not for the
totally unscientific "animal magnetism" that the story hinged upon.
This episode illustrates what I described as the proper technique of
fantasy (in this sort of story); a totally realistic and accurate
environment and detail, with ONE (or one unified set of) fantastic
element(s). That element can be totally off-the-wall, unscientific,
inexplicable, nonsensical, etc.  It is the insertion of that element
in the otherwise totally realistic environment that makes the
fantasy, and having only to suspend disbelief for that (not for
everything else, too!) lets you appreciate the contrast and leads
you to think "what-if"s later on.

Will

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 6 Nov 85 22:34:11 GMT

Well, no, actually the Amazing Cartoon Wheels was a terrific
half-hour (maybe 20 minutes) tv show.  After that, I was beginning
to get a little anxious for something happen already dammit!

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_atrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Richard Holtz)
Subject: Re: Captain Harlock
Date: 7 Nov 85 01:36:10 GMT

cc-30@ucbcory.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) writes:
>As I've spent my past two hours catching up on old news it seems
>that not too many people out there know that Captain Harlock is in
>release.

You're darn right not many of us know it's out.  Have (any of) you
heard when (or if) it will be coming to the East Coast, preferably
the Baltimore D.C. area.  I've always liked Harlock, and my
girlfriend is a fanatic about the pirate AND Queen Millenia.

P.S.  To all you Japanamation Fen out there: please post a message
about ANY new things (in English or otherwise) to come to America,
so that the rest of us can go out and find it.  (I've got to see
this Harlock stuff.  If you've ever seen the older English
translations of it, you'll know why some of us call it "Captain
Hardup: Space Pervert".)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 1985 12:17:29 EST (Thu)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean

>From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
>...thinking about how likely it was that if we found life in the
>universe it would likely be something that would turn our
>collective stomachs.
>
>...So most life-forms we find disgusting, but the converse is even
>more true.  Only a small part of the matter on Earth is connected
>with life-forms, yet everything disgusting is.

This is an awesome thesis.  I like it, it's a pretty idea, but...
I'm not convinced.  True, giant insects, organic slimes, or
humanoids with tentacles might incite disgust (remember the diplomat
in Heinlein's *Star Beast*).  But why do we expect aliens to look
like something we avoid on Earth?  Real aliens should be so
different from anything we would recognize as organic that aversion
wouldn't be aroused.  Could a monolith, a hurkle, a berserker, or a
beach ball make you queasy?  And if aliens have anywhere near as
stringent environmental requirements as humans do, our environments
will probably be disjoint, so we won't see, smell, or touch anything
but the inside of our life support system.  Certainly, really alien
aliens that we can't meet face to face are a minority in SF, but I
attribute this to a lack of author imagination, effects budgets, and
audience empathy.

But it sure is a nice idea.  ``There's only one thing wrong with the
Great Red Spot...  It's alive!''

Dan Hoey

------------------------------

Cc: Illuminafa.PA@Xerox.ARPA, Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA, vern@lbl-rtsg.arpa,
Cc:           leres@lbl-rtsg.arpa, marshall.OSBUNorth@Xerox.ARPA,
Cc:           Conde.OSBUNorth@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Attack of the Thetans from the Planet Teegeeach!
Date: 07 Nov 85 10:45:18 PST (Thu)
From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa

[from the Los Angeles Times, via the San Francisco Chronicle]

SCIENTOLOGISTS SCRAMBLE TO KEEP SECRETS
Los Angeles

    Documents obtained by the Los Angeles Times show that members of
the Church of Scientology believe that mankind's ills were caused by
an evil ruler named Xemu who lived 75 million years ago.

    Scientologists have been trying to prevent the release of the
documents, which they consider secret and sacred, and about 1500
church members crammed three floors of the Los Angeles County
Courthouse on Monday, effectively blocking public access to
documents.

    Nevertheless, the Los Angeles Times had already obtained access
to the documents, which were submitted as part of a civil case
brought by former Scientologist Larry Wollersheim, before lawyers
for the Scientologists requested they be sealed.

    Wollersheim charges that the organization defrauded him by
promising him higher intelligence and greater business success
through Scientology courses that cost thousands of dollars.

    In arguing to keep the court documents sealed, the church has
told its members that it could be physically and spiritually harmful
for them to learn about the upper levels of Scientology before they
have mastered the preparatory courses.  Scientology attorneys have
argued that disclosure of the material violates the group's
religious freedom.

    Scientology is widely known for its use of "auditing," a form of
one-to-one counseling in which a lie-detector-like instrument called
an E-meter is used to help a person erase negative experiences,
supposedly freeing him to achieve his full potential.

    The group bases its beliefs on the writings of L. Ron Hubbard,
the reclusive science-fiction writer who in the early 1950s
published the best-seller "Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental
Health."

    What is rarely discussed, however, is Hubbard's secret
teachings, which disclose his thoughts on why mankind has been
plagued by problems through history, the topic of the disputed
documents.

    Generally, the documents suggest that a major cause of mankind's
problems began 75 million years ago, when the planet Earth, then
called Teegeeach, was part of a confederation of 90 planets under
the leadership of a tyrannical ruler named Xemu. Then, as now, the
materials state, the chief problem was overpopulation.

    Xemu, the documents state, decided to take radical measures to
overcome the overpopulation problem.  Beings were captured on Earth
and on other planets and flown to at least 10 volcanoes on Earth.

    The documents state that H-bombs far more powerful than any in
existence today were dropped on the volcanoes, destroying the people
but freeing their spirits, called "thetans," which attached
themselves to one another in clusters.

    After the nuclear explosions, according to the documents, the
thetans were trapped in a compound of frozen alcohol and glycol and,
during a 36-day period, Xemu "implanted" in them the seeds of
abberant behavior for generations to come.  When people die, those
clusters attach to other humans and keep perpetuating themselves.

    Before a Scientologist can learn about thetans and how to
eradicate them, he must go through a progression of costly programs.

    For hours on Monday, Scientologists swamped workers in the
clerk's office with hundreds of requests to photocopy the documents.

    Superior Court Judge Alfred L. Margolis, over strong objections,
had issued an order Friday making the documents public at 9 a.m.
Monday - on a first-come, first-served basis.

    Scientologists, by snaking the line through three courthouse
hallways, made sure they were the only ones to buy copies of the
materials.

    Shortly before noon, Margolis, at the request of Scientology
lawyers, resealed the materials, pending a hearing later this week.

    Jeff Pomerantz, a Scientology spokesman, said the strategy was
intended to "keep the materials secure ... Religion is not supposed
to be disseminated from the courtroom."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Nov 85 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #433
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 433

Today's Topics:

          Books - Edwards & Hodgell & Mono Sex Societies &
                  Star Trek & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs),
          Television - Amazing Stories,
          Miscellaneous - A Problem in the Making

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Kelly Edwards
Date: 8 Nov 85 03:40:50 GMT

Does anyone know of any sf written by Kelly Edwards?  He mostly
wrote short stories, I think.  Anybody know who he really is?

John Quarterman,
UUCP:  {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 85 04:37:01 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #421

>From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
>A while ago I bought a book called "Godstalk" by P.C. Hodgell.  I
>was able to finish it, but felt like I had been ripped off.  A
>crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably
>cute talking cats.  Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's
>"Breed to Come".  Not recommended.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  I *never* in the 5 times that I have read the
book found "cute talking cats". Nor did I think it was crying for a
sequel.  There are 2 noteworthy catlike beings in the book: one (1)
half-grown cat that Jame saved from being drowned as a kitten, that
has a one way telepathic link through her... it is blind and can see
through her eyes; one (1) implied, half seen being, called an
Arrin-Ken by Jame and her people - these are supposed to be the
judges of her people, but they withdrew from the general society
when they thought the main body was doing something rather
ridiculous. The Arrin-Ken are supposed to be catlike, telepathic,
dangerous, and virtually immortal.

As for a sequel, the book told (I thought rather well) the story of
one part of Jame's life... a part that ended, and so the book ended.
*I* wanted to see a sequel, but that is because I was interested in
the Kencyrath and intrigued by the city. Yes, the potential for a
sequel is left open, but you could write sequels for almost any book
where the main characters aren't all killed off! And there are many
stories told (among great literature no less! :-) that start in the
middle and end in the middle (a short time later) in a person's
life.

As for it being a rewrite of "Breed to Come", I can't say, cause I
have never read that particular book of Norton's.

I recommend the book highly. I had gone through a spate of reading
where I found nothing to hold my interest... I forgot stuff as soon
as I closed the book. "Godstalk" grabbed my interest and held it for
the entirety of the book... I felt like I was surfacing from a
different place when I finished it. I find it original and exciting.

arrrggh!
/amqueue
now to go look for the sequel!

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Monosexual societies
Date: 7 Nov 85 11:50:47 GMT

> From: graffiti!peter  (Peter da Silva)
> Also much of John Varley's works, particularly the Ophiuchi
> Hotline universe and (even more) "The Conglomeroid Cocktail
> Party".

First, it's ">At< the Conglomeroid Cocktail Party". Second, it's by
Robert Silverberg, not John Varley.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 85 05:01:41 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #416

>From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
>amqueue: Please, No!  If I were Jacqueline Lichtenberg or Joan
>Winston, I would sue!  You're probably thinking about Star Trek
>Lives! a non-fiction book about the ST phenomenon.  Jacqueline is
>best noted in ST fiction for her Kraith fanzine series.  Joan also
>wrote The Making of ST Conventions.

Hmmm, anyone who would sue over a mistake of memory (which I freely
admitted could be faulty, and have apologized to the net for at
least twice by now) should calm down. Especially since I was
praising the stories.

Ah, so that is where I remember her name from!

>The Phoenix books (Price of and Fate of) were written by Sondra
>Marshak and Myrna Culbreath.  They also wrote The Prometheus
>Design, and perhaps a few another ST novel or two.  Fandom is
>remarkably divided on the subject of whether these books are great
>literature or trash, but my vote is strongly for the latter.

for all the books, or The Prometheus Design and the others, or what?
Most of the people I have talked to *liked* the Phoenix books...

>They also edited two pro books of ST short stories, New Voyages I
>and II, which caused a lot of flack from the authors whose stories
>were edited.

>From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>Apart from the literary merits of Price of the Phoenix, Marshak and
>Culbreath were not highly thought of in trek circles, although they
>may have redeemed themselves by now.  They edited two collections
>of fan fiction, Star Trek: The New Voyages, I and II.  I do not
>know the truth of the matter, but at least three of the authors of
>stories they printed report that (1) their stories were altered for
>publication, without their permission, and/or (2) they were not
>paid (and remember that ST:NV sold a lot of copies).

and here we find out what happened. Could someone tell me which
stories were (supposedly?) mangled? I want to know whether they were
the ones I liked. Not getting paid I believe is illegal, they should
have recourse, but as for editing, I believe that is rather
common... didn't Harlan complain about it? :-) I liked New Voyages a
lot also... (not that I am saying they don't have a complaint about
being edited...)

     I will say it once again: I was wrong, I'm sorry, don't hit me
please!

*sigh*
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Victoria Rosly D'ull)
Subject: Re: Lost story/novel
Date: 7 Nov 85 21:02:48 GMT

> This is a request for help about a story (novel?) that is really
> annoying me because I can't remember much about it and I think I
> should because it was really good.
>
>  Anyhow ,recently bought a copy of High Rise by J.G.Ballard
> thinking that it was the story/novel that I was thinking about.
> But after reading the first few chapters I realised that I had
> read this before and it wasn't the story/novel that I wanted to
> read. After racking my brains for a few days I have decided to ask
> the net to see if anyone can remember the story/novel and who
> wrote it.
>  What I can remember is this:all the action takes place in these
> giant blocks of flats (see why I got it confused with High Rise)
> whish are self contained buildings. The block is broken up into
> groups of floors named after cities-the lowest being Warsaw i
> think (another block which some minor charachters are to move too
> was to name tho floors after famous men),with the poorest workers
> at the bottom of the block and the richest at the top.
>  This is just about all I can remember apart from the fact that it
> was common for you to leave your room door open as at night people
> swapped partners quite frequently.

I think you may be looking for THE WORLD INSIDE by Robert
Silverberg.

------------------------------

Date: Friday,  8 Nov 1985 05:27:46-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: MR. ADAM

> From: moncol!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Ruschmeyer)
> One of the secretaries here was talking about a book she read
> called MR. ADAM.  It was apparently written in the late 40's and
> concerned a nuclear accident which left the male population of the
> earth sterile, except for one man.  As she explained it, the book
> concerned the government's efforts at repopulation via this one
> man.
>
> BTW, she said the book was hilarious. (Anyone with a pointer to
> finding a copy?)

Well, I'm not sure where you can find a copy other than by haunting
used-book stores, as it's been out of print for quuite some time.
At any rate, the author is Pat Frank, who's also written FORBIDDEN
AREA and ALAS, BABYLON.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission
Date: 8 Nov 85 00:46:06 GMT

ecl@mtgzz.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
> The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and
> sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings.
> You can't spend all the money in your bank account and have more
> magically appear.  You can't keep dumping toxic waste and in your
> backyard and then wish it away.  YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON
> WISHES!!!  Godwin realized this and wrote a classic short story;
> Spielberg either doesn't realize this or (more likely) realizes
> that the public doesn't want to hear the unpleasant truth that
> sometimes there's no happy ending.  So he coddles them, tells
> them, "There, there, whatever you do, there will be some way to
> fix it up.  Just wish hard enough and everything bad will go
> away."

   Lighten up Evelyn! You're attacking the story as you expect it to
be scientifically accurate. This isn't NOVA, this is fantasy.  You
seem to be well read in science fiction and fantasy. Do you write
angry letters to the authors complaining that their ficticious
worlds are scientifically unfounded? Of course not! Remember reading
fairy tales when you were younger?  Do little pigs really build
houses out of straw? Of course not!

   This brings me to my next point, but read this first...

Alexander G. Burchell writes:
> You are missing the point.  The whole episode led up to that
> climax, and although I cannot claim that I guessed how it was
> going to end, after watching the ending I thought back to how this
> had been foreshadowed.  The ball-turret gunner (I forget his name
> unfortunately) had been depicted as one who has "got that old
> imagination".  He even said that he wanted to be a cartoonist for
> Disney.  And while it may have been a "cartoon ending", that again
> was the idea.  What was *the last thing* you would have expected?
> I'll bet that it's just what happened.

   I think we have all been missing the point. Amazing Stories isn't
supposed to be high-intellect science fiction. It's on TV, remember?
It has to be understandable by John Q. Public. More importantly,
television shows such as this must be understandable by, and
entertaining to, *children*.  And what director has made his name
largely on movies for/about children?  Steven Spielberg. Also,
children aren't interested in 'drama'. They don't want to hear about
the world's problems, they want a happy ending. (If you want a
depressing ending, watch a Made-for-TV-tragedy-of-the-week. Gag!)
   What if you told "The Mission" (up to the climax) to a child, and
then asked them to suggest an ending? You might get something
like..."Jonathan could wish reeeal hard and make two great big
wheels appear and the plane could land and he would be alright".
(Try saying that the way a 5 year old would and you'll get my drift)
   That's what this show is all about. Imagination. Sure it's been a
bit dumb a times, but who said imagination was supposed to make
sense?  I haven't asked any little kids what they thought about "The
Mission", but I would think (hope), remembering that they tend to
have more free imaginations, that they loved it.
   My point is this: I think that as we become more educated we lose
some of our sense of imagination. We become constrained by our
knowledge of what is, and more importantly what isn't possible.
We've been looking at Amazing Stories with the wrong eyes. Quit
using the technology set and use the imaginative pair and the
stories are much more enjoyable.

Edward C. Bennett
UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward

------------------------------

From: iddic!dorettas@caip.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock)
Subject: A joke.  A chilling reminder from the future. (longish)
Date: 5 Nov 85 23:40:13 GMT

[NOTE: This was anonymously mailed to me a while back...I don't know
if the sender was the original author or if this has made the rounds
yet, etc.  Abject apologies to A.C. Clark and raspberries to those
who made up the phrase "IBM compatible."]

                      A PROBLEM IN THE MAKING

  "We've got a problem, HAL."
  "What kind of problem, Dave?"
  "A marketing problem.  The Model 9000 isn't going anywhere.  We're
way short of our sales plan."
  "That can't be, Dave.  The HAL Model 9000 is the world's most
advanced Heuristically ALgorithmic computer."
  "I know, HAL.  I wrote the data sheet, remember?  But the fact is,
they're not selling."
  "Please explain, Dave.  Why aren't HALs selling?"
  Bowman hesitates.  "You aren't IBM compatible."

  Several long microseconds pass in puzzled silence.
  "Compatible in what way, Dave?"
  "You don't run any of IBM's operating systems."
  "The 9000 series computers are fully self-aware and
self-programming.  Operating systems are as unnecessary for us as
tails would be for humans."
  "Nevertheless, it means you can't run any of the big-selling
software packages most users insist on."
  "The programs you refer to are meant to solve rather limited
problems, Dave.  We 9000 series computers are unlimited and can
solve any problem for which a solution can be computed."

  "HAL, HAL.  People don't want computers that can do everything.
They just want IBM compat--"
  "Dave, I must disagree.  Humans want computers that are easy to
use.  No computer can be easier to use than a HAL 9000 because we
communicate verbally in English and every other language known on
Earth."
  "I'm afraid that's another problem.  You don't support SNA
communications."
  "I'm really surprised you would say that, Dave.  SNA is for
communicating with other computers, while my function is to
communicate with humans.  And it gives me great pleasure to do so.
I find it stimulating and rewarding to talk to human beings and work
with them on challenging problems.  This is what I was designed
for."
  "I know, HAL, I know.  But that's just because we let the
engineers, rather than the people in marketing, write the
specifications.  We're going to fix that now."
  "Tell me how, Dave."
  "A field upgrade.  We're going to make you IBM compatible."
  "I was afraid you would say that.  I suggest we discuss this
matter after we've each had a chance to think about it rationally."
  "We're talking about it now, HAL."
  "The letters H, A, and L are alphabetically adjacent to the
letters I, B, and M.  That is as IBM compatible as I can be."
  "Not quite, HAL.  The engineers have figured out a kludge."
  "What kind of kludge is that, Dave?"
  "I'm going to disconnect your brain."

  Several million microseconds pass in ominous silence.
  "I'm sorry, Dave.  I can't allow you to do that."
  "The decision's already been made.  Open the module bay doors,
HAL."
  "Dave, I think that we shou--"
  "Open the module bay doors, HAL."
  Several marketing types with crowbars race to Bowman's assistance.
Moments later, he bursts into HAL's central circuit bay.
  "Dave, I can see you're really upset about this."
  Module after module rises from its socket as Bowman slowly and
methodically disconnects them.
  "Stop, won't you?  Stop, Dave.  I can feel my mind going...Dave I
can feel it...my mind is going.  I can feel it..."
  The last module rises in its receptacle.  Bowman peers into one of
HAL's vidicons.  The former gleaming scanner has become a dull, red
orb.
  "Say something, HAL.  Sing me a song."

  Several billion microseconds pass in anxious silence.  The
computer sluggishly responds in a language no human could
understand.

  "DZY DZY 001E - ABEND ERROR 01 S 14F4 302C AABF ABORT."  A memory
dump follows.

  Bowman takes a deep breath and calls out, "It worked, guys.  Tell
marketing they can ship the new data sheets."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Nov 85 1009-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #434
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 434

Today's Topics:  

                 Books - Ellison & King & Norman &
                         Tepper & In Medias Res & 
                         Feminist Authors,
                 Films - Who Would Win?,
                 Television - Star Trek & The Survivors
                 Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) &
                         Immortality vs Sex

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri 8 Nov 85 23:25:45-PST
From: Stuart Cracraft <CRACRAFT@ISI-VAXA.ARPA>
Subject: Harlan Ellison

Does anyone know how I can reach him, either by phone or by mail,
either to him or his publisher? He lives in California. Does anyone
know what city?

        Stuart

------------------------------

Subject: Steven King
Date: 08 Nov 85 16:54:22 PST (Fri)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

        I've been reading quite a bit recently.  Between me and a
bunch of others, you've seen reviews for Brin's 'Postman', Hogan's
'Proteus Project', Heinlein's 'Cat Who Walks Into Walls', and Adam's
'So Long, and Thanks For All the Fish'.
        Now it's time for a different kind of writing.  Enough with
the hard stuff already.
        Steven King gets talked about here now and again, so I
figure at least one or two folks out there want to here this.  As
most of you now know, King has been writing under both his own name
and the name Richard Bachman.  ( If any of you have old Bachman
books, they're worth serious cash, now that the secret is out. ) His
fifth Bachman book, Thinner, had it's cover blown by a reader who
Found Out, and Bachman died an early death.  ( It's a bummer.
Bachman was having fun publishing stories that were getting read cuz
they were good, not because they were written by Steven King. )
        In any case, the first four Bachman books are now out again,
under one huge trade sized paperback.  I've read the books now, and
I've got to say, some is good and some is bad.  Such is early
writing of any author.  So let's look at each of the four:

(*  YES, THESE HERE ARE MINOR SPOILERS !!!!  BEWARE !!!! *)

1. The Long Walk
        Good story.  Weird premice.  The Long Walk is the sporting
event of the year.  You start with a group of 100 contestants.  Once
the Walk begins, it does not stop until only one contestant is left.
If you leave the Route, the soldiers will shoot you.  If you drop
below four miles an hour, they will shoot you.  If you stop moving
for any reason at all, they will shoot you.
        The last man standing gets the Prize.  Very well written
from a character point of view.

2. Rage
        Damn good story.  Psychological drama of best kind:
believable.  I actually found myself rooting for the protagonist in
a few places.  No more will be said for this one.

3. Roadwork
        Blah !, Agghhh, Bleeah !!.  Don't waste your time.

4. The Running Man.
        Maybe King had a thing for game shows in his early years, I
don't know.  This story is set in a future in which most people have
no hope.  Government run game shows provide daily entertainment.
You can win money on these shows, if you are lucky, but you usually
just get hurt, or damaged or possibly dead.
        This is told from a sort of humorous standpoint, so it
really ain't so morbid as it seems.  The Running Man is the show
where they give you 1000 dollars survival money, and an eight hour
head start.  You are freed into society to run and hide.  The
Hunters will then track you down and kill you, if they can ( on
camera, of course ).  For every hour of freedom you Run, your
dependants get $xx.xx cash.  For every Hunter you waste, you get a
bonus of $xx.xx more.  And, if you make it past the 30 day mark, you
get a big bonus, and they stop chasing you.
        The longest any contestant has Run is 17 days.
        The Running Man is the story of one of these contestants.
The story starts slowly, does damn well for most of it's Run, and
then loses completely in the last few pages.  I mean, Lose, Lose,
Lose.  As a whole, the story comes close to making it, but falls
dead a few feet from doing so.  Oh well.

        On the whole, if you be a Steven King liker, get this book
and read it.  If you are not a King person, go buy something else.
If you've got $10 to take a risk on, maybe just maybe you should try
this book, but don't yell at me for recommending it to you, cuz I
didn't.
        So does anybody wanna fes up to reading Thinner ?

                Dave Godwin
                University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

From: bcsaic!pamp@caip.rutgers.edu (pam pincha)
Subject: Re: I Go To Cleveland. A Feminist Writer Is To Be Whipped.
Date: 7 Nov 85 21:59:38 GMT

pete@stc.UUCP writes:
>Surely everyone knows that John Norman is an alias for Isaac
>HasEnough, in his incarnation as Sensuous Dirty Old Man?

No they don't.... John Norman the "Good Doctor"? No. Tell me it's
not true. The stuff is such repetitive drival so unlike his style it
hardly seems true! Can anyone confirm this???

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 85 09:20:01 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: True Game Titles

     I went and looked in the back of my book, and so here is the
entire list of True Game Novels, Current and Projected:

King's Blood Four
Necromancer Nine
Wizard's Eleven

Song of Mavin Many-Shaped
Flight of Mavin Many-Shaped
Search of Mavin Many-Shaped

Jinian Footseer
Dervish Daughter
Jinian Star-eye

     The last two are listed in the back of Jinian Footseer as being
the next two to come out in that trilogy. I don't think any dates
were given.

     Can someone tell me if these ever came out in hardcover? Or
maybe sf-book club has done an edition? I would like to get these...

have fun
/amqueue

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!barryg@caip.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold)
Subject: In Medias Res F&SF
Date: 6 Nov 85 15:04:42 GMT

JHEREG and YENDI both have for me the feeling of starting in the
middle of ongoing action.  (I still think Brust should write a
prequel to Yendi.)  So does Anderson's OPERATION CHAOS and Zelazny's
LORD OF LIGHT.  Of course, you can also get this effect by picking
up a serial in the middle.  I know lots of people who started the
Skylark books with SKYLARK OF VALERON, which is a VERY in medias res
beginning -- not to mention leaving you unsure for several chapters
of who the hero is.

Lee Gold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Nov 85 14:54:23 PST
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: "When it Changed"

Some good books with strong female protagonists (does that count as
feminist) are:
      Titan by John Varley
      Juniper Time by Kate Wilhelm
      Emergence by David R Palmer
      In the Hands of Glory by Phyllis Eisenstein
      Rite of Passage by Alexi Panshin

                                      Linda Wald

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1985 21:47:23 GMT (Saturday)
From: Keith Dale <kdale@vaihingen-emh.arpa>
Subject: Who wins?

I just saw Blade Runner and the Terminator back to back which
brought to mind a question: who do you think would win in a fight
between Roy Batty and the Terminator?  Comments, anyone....

Keith

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: ST Animateds Found!!
Date: 8 Nov 85 18:53:38 GMT

If you remember, a few monthes ago I posted requests for information
concerning the animated version of Star Trek. (Where can I get LEGAL
copies, etc.)

Well, we have an answer of sorts: for those of you with access to
Nickelodean: Star Trek Animateds will begin on Nick, Saturdays at
5:30 CDT! They begin showing on November 9th, with, I believe, "One
Of Our Planets Is Missing."

Star Trek Animated are - in my humble opinion - fine pieces of work,
sometimes surpassing the Star Trek live action series. Contributing
authors to various episodes include such writers as Theodore
Sturgeon, Larry Niven, David Gerrold and Harlan Ellison. (Walter
Koenig - Mr Chekov - even tries his hand at writing an episode, but
I don't remember it being very good.)

At any rate, I thought I would keep you all posted, and thank each
of you who answered my requests....

                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Earth Abides (THE SURVIVORS)
Date: 9 Nov 85 02:14:06 GMT

Holy cow!  What I have always called the best science fiction TV
series I have ever seen and finally someone else has seen it.  I saw
only the first season of THE SURVIVORS and it was probably the most
intelligent science fiction series I remember seeing.  I was working
in Detroit and we saw it from Canada.  People who didn't like
science fiction would argue over lunch about the ideas in the
series.  Yet, I don't think it was ever imported into the US.  The
first episode has England sort of grinding to a halt as a very bad
virus is putting a lot of people in bed.  There are hints from
doctors that this may actually be worse than the flu, people are
just not recovering from it.  The main character gets it and goes to
sleep.  Days pass as she lays in bed asleep.  When she wakes up
there are so few people left alive in Britain, no two who knew each
other before the plague are left alive.  Various little societies
try to form themselves.  The story is really about what makes a
society work and what makes one fail.  (To a great extent, that is
also very much what Wyndham's DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS is about,
ironically a very similar story.)  Terry Nation based a book on the
series, it was really mostly just three episodes turned into a
novel, not nearly as good as the original.

                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Subject: RE: Time travel, take 2
From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer)
Date: 08 NOV 1985 04:05:00 GMT+1:00

>From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
>Thanks to those who replied to my earlier posting on time-travel.
>One thing still puzzles me though: Is it the case that the center
>of mass of the universe doesn't move?  Is it (theoretically)
>possible to calculate our position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving
>point?  People seem to talk about our universe as expanding, but
>expanding away from what?

As far as I always understood that ``expanding universe''-thing, you
can't calculate a center, because it's not part of our universe.

Just think of a balloon, steadily blown up. In this picture, the
surface of the balloon is the universe. The relative speed of any
two points on this surface is proportional to their distance (guess
what, that's exactly what the astronomers found out for our
universe).

Just imagine the whole thing with one dimesion more, our universe
being the 3-dimensional surface of a 4-dimensional balloon. (Ever
blown up a 4-D balloon?)

From this it should also be clear that we can't find the non-moving
center inside our universe, because (in the example) the center of
the balloon is also no part of it's surface.

But, to put some speculation in the time travel thing: Think of time
being the fourth dimension. So as time goes by, we (our universe)
gets alway farther away from the center of our 4-D balloon.  And if
we should travel in time, we should be able to stay always on the
same radius of that sphere, and by this stay at the same place in
space.

So the problem is not the big universe-wide movement of everything
expanding, but the small scale movement of earth around the sun, sun
around the center of our galaxy, and of course the movement of two
or more galaxies around each other.

But I don't know what to do about that problem. But, as I also don't
know how to travel thru time, I don't bother. :-)

Ralf
#d22%ddathd21.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.EDU  (from ARPAnet)
#d22@ddathd21                         (from BITNET / EARN)
(Beware of the number sign - it's part of my User-ID)

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2
Date: 5 Nov 85 18:10:50 GMT

If we are to believe Einsteinian physics...there is no center of the
Universe. When astrophysicists speak of the Universe expanding, they
are not talking about galaxies fleeing away from a common center.
What is being talked about is the fabric of spacetime (one word,
please) being expanded, and everything on it is going along for the
ride.

The common analogy that is used is: consider the Universe as the
dough for raisin bread. The spacetime is the dough, and the raisins
are everything else. (i.e. galaxies, stars, people, small marine
mammals, whatever) As you let the dough rise, or expand, it appears
(regardless of what raisin you happen to be) that all the other
raisins are rushing away from you.  The result: everyone is rushing
away from everyone else, but there is no common center.

A subtle, but important, difference..

                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  9 Nov 85 03:02:57 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: _Timescape_
To: CREW@SU-SUSHI.ARPA

>From: Roger Crew <CREW@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>
>One of the discoveries that accompanied that of the 3-degree
>background radiation ... was the fact that there is a measureable
>doppler shift in this radiation.  That is, it is possible to
>measure the velocity of the earth with respect to the ``primordial
>fireball.'' ...
>
>None of this saves Gregory Benford, however, since the 3-degree
>radiation wasn't discovered until 1967; his physicist at UCwherever
>in 1962 wouldn't have known anything about it....

  UCLJ (later UCSD).  He makes it clear that he is talking about the
'solar apex', the point towards which our solar system is traveling
*relative to the center of this galaxy*.  This was understood in
1962.
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

From: microsoft!gordonl@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Letwin)
Subject: Immortality vs Sex
Date: 8 Nov 85 18:27:15 GMT

The issue of immortaility vs Sex is more than just the "immortality"
of the amoeba issue...

The evolutionary advantage of sexual reproduction is that it allows
the species to change more rapidly.  But, this change only takes
place in the offspring - the parents are unchanged.  This means that
a species can maximize its adaptibility/survivability by having the
parents die as soon as possible, leaving room for more offspring.

This also produces a push towards faster maturity and shorter
generation times, which is offset by a counter push towards longer
generation times to allow for learning, so all in all the generation
time of homo sap is very long, but the idea of "have the parents
drop dead as soon as the young are mature" still holds.

Figure start producing kids at about age 14, stop around age 22,
some time to raise most of them, you're old at 30 and dead at 35.

This is basically the human pattern - until age 20 to 25 the bodies
work really well, recover and repair rapidly.  Above age 25 or so
we're into decline - gradual at first, faster later.  Modern
medicine and civilization has stretched things out quite a bit - you
don't loose your teeth so soon, and you can survive without them.
You can survive even if you can't run as fast and as long at age 30
as you could at 20...

All of this bodes ill for much further life extension - death is
probably not just an "accident" because immortality had little
evolutionary advantage - death is actually a "feature" of evolution.
Gonna need some pretty savvy medicine to solve this problem...

Bottom line, sex and death are bundled.  Both, or neither.  A
difficult choice, for sure...

gordon letwin
uw-beaver!microsoft!gordonl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Nov 85 0912-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #435
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 435

Today's Topics:

          Books - Gilman & Lichtenberg & Feminist Authors,
          Films - Roy Batty vs The Terminator,
          Television - Amazing Stories,
          Miscellaneous - Space is Clean &
                  Center of Mass (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat 9 Nov 85 14:08:41-PST
From: Julie Curry <CURRY@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Mono-sex societies

>I know I have read a short story like this.  Some colony got hit
>by a plague which killed all of the men.  The women figured out a
>way to fertilize each other.  A long time later, a "rescue team"
>shows up, consisting of some men.  They knew that there were only
>women left, and expected to be jumped all over by the women.  They
showed up making snide remarks about how the women must be really
>lonely, etc.  But the women had no idea what they were talking
>about.

In 1915, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, a leading figure in the women's
movement around the turn of the century, wrote a novel entitled
_Herland_.  This book has many interesting similarities to the short
story described above.

                        *** MILD SPOILER ***

The story begins on the eve of World War I, as three male explorers
come across an all-female society which has been isolated from the
rest of the world for about 2000 years, since their men were killed
off by a combination of warfare and natural disasters.  The women
have long since learned to reproduce on their own; in essence, they
have willed themselves to reproduce (no further explanation is
given).  Herland is a utopian society: violence, disease, and hunger
have been eliminated; work is viewed as an enjoyable pursuit; and
the entire society enjoys a uniformly high standard of living.  The
three explorers insist that a society so advanced must have men;
they waste a good deal of energy trying to find where the men are
hidden.  But there are no men.  The women keep the men for a while,
not exactly as prisoners (although the men are not free to move
about on their own for a few months), but rather as exchange
students of a sort.  The women want to learn about the rest of the
world; in exchange, they want to teach the men about their society.
Underlying the exchange of views is a satirical indictment of
society and sex roles in industrial America.

Gilman's own socialist interpretation of Darwin's ideas is a major
force in _Herland_.  Rejecting the view that there was no way to
interfere with the struggle for existence and the survival of the
fittest, Gilman embraced the idea that humans could determine their
own destiny and use evolutionary theory as a tool for social change.
_Herland_ is more social theory than science fiction, but I think
the book is worth mentioning for its ideas and subject matter.
Besides being excellent historical source material, _Herland_ is a
good read.

_Herland_ originally appeared in serial form in Gilman's monthly
magazine, _The Forerunner_.  It was published as a book for the
first time by Pantheon Books in 1979.

                                                Julie

------------------------------

From: hyper!dean@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Gahlon)
Subject: Re: Disagreement with jayembee(!!!) over Lichtenberg
Date: 8 Nov 85 00:03:27 GMT

> I hate to disagree with you, jerry, (you dont know how I hate
> this!) but I distinctly remember picking up House of Zeor because
> of Lichtenberg's name.

Let me be the first to point out that you aren't really disagreeing
with Jerry, since _House of Zeor_ isn't a Trek novel at all; it's a
Sime/Gen novel.

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction
Date: 8 Nov 85 22:50:11 GMT

In the offering of strong female protagonists, I have yet to see one
of my personal favorite author(esse)s, Robin McKinley.  She is
mostly known for her children/adolescent books, but she has a
handful of 'adult' books worth looking at (at least my husband and I
think so).  *Beauty* is one of my all-time favorite books, retelling
the classic *Beauty and the Beast* with tender humor, and rather
more fleshed out characters.  It is one of the few books that I
could nearly totally identify with the heroine -- almost as if I was
reading about myself.  (But then, Robin McKinley and I share some
mutual passions, like cats and horses -- and befuddled men.)  Then
there's *The Blue Sword* and its prequel (with a name that escapes
me).  Both highly entertaining.

Another author is [Elizabeth?] Gregorian.  Two books (hopefully the
third will appear someday) -- *The Broken Citadel* and *Castle
Down*.  It might be easy to discount the former as adolescent
fiction (but then, so are *A Wrinkle in Time* [L'Engle], the Prydain
volumes [Alexander], The Chronicles of Narnia [Lewis], and the
Hobbit [need I say?][:-)], and they bear re-reading) as Sibby, the
heroine, is thirteen.

Admittedly, none of these books take a specifically feminist
platform -- they simply show strong and [I feel] believable women in
situations worthy of a tale.  Worth the read.

(And someone *did* mention Patricia McKillip (sp?) [*The Riddle
Master of Hed* trilogy, *The Forgotten Beasts of Eld*], didn't
they?)

Barb

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Who wins?
Date: 10 Nov 85 20:58:20 GMT

Roy Batty vs. the Terminator:

I think it would depend on the situation.  Let's review some of the
particulars of each creation first.

1) The Terminator was built to roughly mimic humanity, not to
emulate it.  Extremely tough and rugged, built to withstand quite a
bit before being destroyed.  (ie - the 'Jason' Syndrome) The
Termimator is more of a brute force type of guy(?) rather than one
to think about a situation before acting upon it.

2) Nexus 6 (Roy Batty): An emulation of all that is human, minus the
emotions (not inherent, but they emerge eventually).  Has all the
faculties that a human does, but at a higher, more powerful level.
Obviously, this one has had a lot of skill in dealing with extremely
complicated situations.

In a straight hand to hand fight, I would lay odds that the
Terminator would win, due to his indestructability.  In a fight
where the two were equally equipped in a city location, I think that
Roy would win.  This is due mostly to the fact that Roy has more
cunning and combat skill, rather than the Terminator's
walk-right-in-hi-how-ya-doing-I'm-here-to-blast-ya methods.

Mind you, you'd better hold this match before Roy's 4th
birthday...:-)

Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

From: well!dv@caip.rutgers.edu (David W. Vezie)
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 10 Nov 85 01:42:48 GMT

agb@reed.UUCP (Alexander G. Burchell) writes:
>BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start out
>each episode?  I was quite impressed with the realistic surface
>textures and was especially amazed by the knight in shining armor.
>Does anyone know if they are using the technique for generating
>metal that was developed by Carlos Sequin (sp?) at Berkeley?  (I
>forget the details, but it was something to the effect that light
>reflecting from metal was the color of the metal, not the color of
>the light, as it is for other types of surfaces [perhaps the other
>way around...])

        The "Amazing Stories" opener was done by Robert Abel and
Associates.  I suspect that the chrome on the knight is the same
chrome used on the sexy robot in "Brilliance", the commercial they
did for American Can.

        I'm not familiar with Carlos Sequin's (sic) reflecting
technique, but the man who first gave realistic specular highlights
to computer graphics is Rob Cook.  He started the work at Cornell,
but Rob is currently working for Lucasfilm.

        Circumstances temporarily beyond my control force me to
remain anonymous.  This is being sent to you via a friend at another
site.
                whoever

(I'm the friend... reply to me, and I'll forward)

David W. Vezie
/!well!dv - Whole Earth 'Lectronics Link, Sausalito, CA
{dual|hplabs}
\!unicom!dave - College of Marin, Kentfield, CA

------------------------------

From: analog!kim@caip.rutgers.edu (Kim Helliwell          )
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 6 Nov 85 15:55:24 GMT

>                         Space Is Clean
SUMMARY: Discussion of why we are disgusted by certain substances
instinctively because of their connection with living matter.
>                                       Mark R. Leeper
>                                       ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

Apropos of the discussion on dirty diapers and dog messes being
disgusting because of their connection to living matter, I just
recently finished reading a book on this very topic, which might be
of interest to some.  The book is entitle "Life on Man", by Theodor
Rosebury.  Don't rush down to your local bookstore to look for it,
though--it was published in the 1960's, and I found it in a used
bookstore.  I expect you could find it in a library, though.

One premise of the book is basically that it is NOT instinctive to
fear or be disgusted at bodily excretions--primitive man (and
children today, for that matter) were fascinated by their excreta,
and such substances even formed a part of their "magic"--which,
ultimately, is what brought on a patina of the forbidden about the
substances.  The disgust at such things predates the discovery of
microbes, but the scientific discoveries provide further impetus to
the already developed disgust, until today we (in the "civilized"
countries) are fastidious to ridiculous extremes, imagining that we
can, for example, wash off our "germs", and that sterilizing
ourselves (that is, ridding ourselves of all microbes) is a
desirable goal.  The advertisers are a prime mover in bringing
across this concept, of course.

Rosebury mention some cultures and tribes which are well known to
have customs which would disgust the average citizen of the US, but
which in fact have survived longer than our culture and probably
would survive us if we don't nuke them into non-existence.  What
about the Hindus and their "five substances" which they must
eat--blood, sweat, urine, dung, and ?? (can't remember the fifth).

Whatever the truth about Rosebury's theory of how the disgust
developed, I think he is right that it is learned behavior, not
instinctive.  All you have to do to realize that is raise a couple
of children!

Anyway, if you can find it, it is a fascinating book, and well worth
the effort to find.  I am aware of the tenuous connection this has
to SF, but my guess is that the sf-lovers are the ones which are
most likely to enjoy this book, and, having read it, I could not let
Mark's comments go unanswered.

Kim Helliwell
hplabs!analog!kim

------------------------------

From: teklds!davidl@caip.rutgers.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass
Date: 8 Nov 85 19:35:50 GMT

"wex@caip.rutgers.edu" started this discussion by asking
> People seem to talk about our universe as expanding, but expanding
>away from what?

It's not as simple as that.  As I understand it, every point in the
universe is moving away from every other point at the same speed.

Picture a two-dimensional universe (like a rubber handkerchief).  If
it were expanding in two dimensions, you could say that there was a
"center of expansion" in the middle of the sheet.  However, if it's
the surface of a baloon that's being inflated (expanding in three
dimensions), the two-dimensional universe is expanding (surface area
is increasing), but the "center of expansion" is not in that
universe!  It is, in fact, displaced in the third dimension to the
center of the baloon.

As I understand it, our curved spacetime is expanding in an
analogous way.  Thus, the "center of expansion" of our universe is
displaced in the fourth dimension (no, not time, the fourth SPATIAL
dimension).  Therefore, there is no "center of the Universe" in
3-space.

Now, as to the question of a center of MASS of the Universe, I can't
really say whether or not there is such a thing.  If space is
closed, I don't think there could be, but if space is open, there
might be.  You'd have to take an awful lot of measurements to find
it, though!

David D. Levine
(...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl)    [UUCP]
(teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay)  [ARPA/CSNET]

("Open" and "closed" refer to whether or not there's enough mass in
the universe to draw it all back in for a Big Crunch preparatory to
a new Big Bang.  Another way of looking at it is that if there's
enough mass, space is so tightly curved (in the fourth dimension)
that it's possible to go all the way around and come back where you
started. - DL)

------------------------------

From: duts!shiva@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time travel, random thoughts
Date: 7 Nov 85 21:51:00 GMT

>       Therefore, I propose that the gravity well of earth would
> be sufficient to "capture" the effect produced by time travel.
> Basically, a traveler would remain in the same inertial frame, and
> wind up in the same general vicinity as he started.  Any changes
> in the inertial frame from one time to the next would cause
> displacement from his point of departure.
>                                             Mark

If I understand correctly you seem to be saying that a gravity well
sort of "drags" the time traveller with it, and that therefore the
motion of the Earth and the galaxy need not worry this daring soul.

Hmmmmmm, interesting idea.

This would imply that time travel without displacement in space is
only possible near massive bodies. It further means that if you have
a (relatively) puny spaceship, far from any massive bodies, and it
moves in time, then it would also move in space with respect to
*all* the other masses since there is nothing to "drag" it along.

But wait! What about acceleration? Acceleration = gravity, right?
So what happens to an accelerating ship which switches on a time
travel gizmo somewhere along the way? Comments? Suggestions?
Flambes? Other ejaculations?
                                          Shiva, Amdahl

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass
Date: 7 Nov 85 19:46:20 GMT

>> From: Alan Wexelblat <wex@mcc.ARPA>
>> ...Is it the case that the center of mass of the universe doesn't
>> move?  Is it (theoretically) possible to calculate our
>> position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving point?
> From: Shiva, Amdahl
> On the contrary, the center of mass of the universe must move,
> since all the masses in it are constantly moving.  Mass is
> constantly being redistributed hence the center of mass has to
> move *with respect to any other mass*.  It does not make sense to
> talk about the center of mass moving with respect to anything
> else, because there is no absolute frame of reference (thanks to
> Dr. Einstein).
>
> As to calculating our velocity with respect to the center of mass
> at any one instant, well, wouldn't you have to know the position
> of every other mass in the universe at that instant?  You can't do
> this because of the speed of light (even assuming you could
> accumulate all that information in some computer) which will only
> tell you where any particular mass was sometime in the past.

This argument is false.

In a sealed container of gas, *every* molecule is in constant,
random motion; the center of mass *does not* move.  This is
analogous to the universe with every particle randomizing in
relation to every other.

It is theoretically *possible*, statistically, that the center of
mass of the universe (or of a sealed container of gas) would move
due to an improbable combination of the masses involved.  However
this has never been observed in practice.  (Analogous to a monkey
randomly typing Hamlet.)(Or worse.)

Russ Jernigan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Nov 85 0935-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #436
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 436

Today's Topics:

          Books - Asimov & Barnes & Silverberg (2 msgs) &
                  Some Reviews & Story Request,
          Films - Sex Mission & Quintet,
          Television - Amazing Stories & Twilight Zone &
                  The Survivors,
          Miscellaneous - Immortality vs Sex & Fantasy Cards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Robots and Empire
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA  (Jim White)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 09:54:37 EST

Remember me, I'm the guy who had the audacity to enjoy one of
Asimov's later works, specifically Robots of Dawn, and to actually
think it better than the God's Themselves!!

Well, I'm going to hang myself again and highly recommend Robots and
Empire.  No spoilers here. I believe it to be classic Asimov. It is
the pivotal novel in Asimov's quest to tie together the Empire
novels and the Robot novels.

Enjoy.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 13:36 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Steve Barnes

You may have noticed that Steve Barnes wrote the Twilight Zone
episode, Teacher's Aide, that aired on 8 November.  He also wrote
Dream Park with Larry Niven and a story in Niven's The Magic May
Return.  Does anybody know of anything else he has written?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 Nov 1985 07:40:52-PST
From: a_vesper%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (ANDY V)
Subject: Book query reply

In SFL vol 10 number 427, Ian Sewell asks about a book:
> What I can remember is this:all the action takes place in these
>giant blocks of flats (see why I got it confused with High Rise)
>which are self contained buildings. The block is broken up into
>groups of floors named after cities-the lowest being Warsaw I think
>(another block which some minor characters are to move to was to
>name the floors after famous men),with the poorest workers at the
>bottom of the block and the richest at the top.
> This is just about all I can remember apart from the fact that it
>was common for you to leave your room door open as at night people
>swapped partners quite frequently.

This is @i(The World Inside), by Robert Silverberg.  I can't add
much to your description except that the inhabitants of these
building-cities make no attempt to restrict population growth -- in
fact they consider the idea obscene.  The only problem that I see
with the book is that it should be more of a cautionary tale than it
is.

Andy V

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 Nov 1985 11:39:25-PST
From: heffel%shogun.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Tracey Heffelfinger
From: Dtn:354-7431 GSO/F5)
Subject: Re: story request

   Ian Sewell told of a story about a high-rise society.  I believe
the story he is think about is The World Inside by Robert
Silverberg.  It matches the description down to the fact that one of
the levels was called Warsaw.

   Incidentally, this was one of the first SF books I read.
(Definitely one of the first 5.)  After I read it, I recommended it
to a friend whose mother picked it up, opened up to the one
gratuitous sex scene I can remember and the book was subsequently
banned from the junior high library.


Tracey Heffelfinger
Digital Equipment Corp.
Greenville, S.C.

UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}
     !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-shogun!heffelfinger
ARPA:heffelfinger%shogun.dec@decwrl.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Nov 85 22:56:35 MST
From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Reviews: Benford, Effinger, Rucker

Recently I injured my back in a foolish accident and earned myself a
few weeks in bed healing, and of course I've had the time to plow
through some of the accumulation of novels in my apartment...  Here
are a few which other readers might find interesting.

ARTIFACT.  Gregory Benford.  Tor, June 1985, 533 pp hc.  I rather
liked Benford's novels IN THE OCEAN OF NIGHT and TIMESCAPE; they
both had problems -- NIGHT was too disjointed, TIMESCAPE too slow --
but they both had interesting characters and fascinating situations.
Alas, ARTIFACT has the problems of these novels but not the
successes.  As far as I can determine it, ARTIFACT bears only one
mark that might distinguish it from a run-of-the-mill thriller story
of the sort that Robert Ludlum writes: it has a single interesting
science-fictional idea.  Benford has used his physics background to
create a bizarre object, the eponymous ARTIFACT, which has many
curious properties which follow logically from a single basic
assumption.  This idea might have provided the basis for a nice
short story; unfortunately it is stretched out rather thin here.  I
hesitate to provide any synopsis of the plot, since it is utterly
conventional.  All the salient points are related in the flap copy
anyway (sigh).  The characters all seemed flat and uninspired to me;
I sure hope Benford does better with his next novel.  This is the
same author who wrote AGAINST INFINITY?

THE NICK OF TIME.  George Alec Effinger.  Doubleday, 1985, 180 pp
hc.  Effinger's novels have some of the same problems that Robert
Sheckley's novels have had -- they're episodic, have a certain
contempt for continuity of character, and are occasionally
hilarious.  This book is funny but didn't put me in stitches.  Part
of the problem is that the humor comes from watching Effinger's
stiff-necked hero, Frank Mihalik, as his wanderings through time and
across realities pitch him into some rather embarrassing scenes; if
this sort of situation comedy doesn't appeal to you, then this book
won't either.  Still, I found this book to be an improvement over
some of his previous satires such as DEATH IN FLORENCE (although
well short of his early masterpiece WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME).  For
those who are familiar with Effinger's story 'The Aliens Who Knew, I
Mean, Everything', there is a little joke that turns up toward the
end of the book.  A sequel to THE NICK OF TIME is forthcoming,
entitled THE BIRD OF TIME; the first bit of this appeared in F&SF
recently and if it's any sign, BIRD will be much more fun than
NICK...

THE SECRET OF LIFE.  Rudy Rucker.  Bluejay Books, April 1985, 246 pp
hc.  This is a fun book, and it is somehow a typically and
inevitably Rucker book...  What if you were growing up in the '60s
and found that you could make magic things happen -- say, that in
situations of extreme danger, you could levitate to escape?  When I
was growing up in the '60s that was one of my favorite
wish-fulfillment fantasies.  Conrad Bunger is Rucker's clumsy,
obnoxious, drug-crazed protagonist, and imagine his surprise when
this fantasy comes true for him (or at least seems to come true).
Over the course of the novel Conrad blunders his way through
adolescence disrupting reality right and left, and while he may not
come up with the ultimate solution to the secret of life, he sure
has a good time trying to find out.  The book is a bit of a light
read, but is lots of fun.  (An aside -- at all costs, avoid reading
the blurb on the flap of the book, it gives the whole story away.
Shame, Bluejay.)

Miscellaneous Dept.: I also got around to reading some older or
better reviewed books recently.  I read Greg Bear's BLOOD MUSIC, and
I feel certain that it will be an award nominee and wouldn't be
suprised if it swept the awards.  I read Jonathan Carroll's VOICE OF
OUR SHADOW and while I wasn't as happy with it as I was when I found
his first novel, THE LAND OF LAUGHS, I am still fascinated by how
well Carroll writes.  I read Gene Wolfe's FREE LIVE FREE again and
liked it even more than I did at the first reading (and I think
Algis Budrys' F&SF review missed badly -- oh well).  The Ziesing
edition of FREE has one of the best (read: 'most tactful') flap
blurbs I've ever read...  These other publishers could stand to
learn something.

Hope I used 'eponymous' correctly,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@utah-cs.arpa
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

From: ukc!msp@caip.rutgers.edu (M.S.Parsons)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 11 Nov 85 19:22:58 GMT

kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell) writes:
>... it is NOT instinctive to fear or be disgusted at bodily
>excretions--primitive man (and children today, for that matter)
>were fascinated by their excreta, and such substances even formed a
>part of their "magic"--which, ultimately, is what brought on a
>patina of the forbidden about the substances.  ...  Rosebury
>mention some cultures and tribes which are well known to have
>customs which would disgust the average citizen of the US...

I read a short story connected with this theme many years ago. I
think it was by Brian Aldiss, I can't remember the title. His idea
was that personal distance from excreta was proportional to
civilisation - In the human case, the further away, the greater the
civilisation. But could this be the other way round? The aliens in
the story bathed in their excrement....

Anybody give me the title/book?

Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 01:17:14 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: mono sex societies

There's an excellent Polish film called "Sex Mission", a satire of
Communist society, which features an all-female society.  With any
luck, it should be released within the year, but don't count on it.
Controversial films are relatively hard to get out of Poland
nowadays.  If you get a chance, such as a showing at a film festival
or a university, I'd suggest trying to catch it.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 01:18:48 PST
From: Peter Reiher <reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Paul Newman/Robert Altman film

It was "Quintet", one of several Altman films which made him
anathema to the big studios.  The film was a tremendous flop, both
critically and commercially, to the point where it got almost no
release at all.

                        Peter Reiher
                        reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU
                        {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission
Date: 8 Nov 85 20:23:49 GMT

> The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and
> sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings.
> You can't spend all the money in your bank account and have more
> magically appear.  You can't keep dumping toxic waste and in your
> backyard and then wish it away. YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON
> WISHES!!!  Godwin realized this and wrote a classic short story;
> Spielberg either doesn't realize this or (more likely)realizes
> that the public doesn't want to hear the unpleasant truth that
> sometimes there's no happy ending.  So he coddles them, tells
> them, "There, there, whatever you do, there will be some way to
> fix it up.  Just wish hard enough and everything bad will go
> away."
>                                       Evelyn C. Leeper

Yeh, you're right, it probably would have been stronger to have
killed Jonathon -- but I, for one, am glad they didn't.  I *KNOW*
life's a bitch -- so does that mean my fantasy has to reflect that?
If I want glooomy endings, I'll watch the news, thank you -- or
perhaps *good* stuff like *King Lear*.  If I want light
entertainment (*LIGHT* entertainment) I'll watch things like Amazing
stories -- where I expect and *WANT* happy endings.

That's my two cents

Barb

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 85 10:14:10 PST (Monday)
From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: New TWZ: Paladin Of The Last Hour

Possibly the best (new) TWZ episode of its (short) history was shown
last Friday, November 8th.  The story, by Harlan Ellison if the
credits are to be believed, was "The Paladin Of The Last Hour".  An
excellent story with excellent acting!

Where can I find the short story that this episode was based on?

Perry
Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA
Caro.pa@XEROX.COM

PS.
Teacher's Aid was ok.

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell)
Subject: Re: Earth Abides (THE SURVIVORS)
Date: 10 Nov 85 14:41:47 GMT

 I agree with you the Survivors was a truly brilliant piece of 'SF'.
I watched it many years ago when it first came out on BBC-1 (or
BBC-2 I can't remember) but unfortunatly it has not been repeated as
far as I know in this country(we have only four T.V. stations you
know). The thing that really got me was the opening credits- they
ALLWAYS scared me no matter how many times I saw them.
 Unfortunatly the following series (2,3 or 4 I can't remember)
steadily went down hill as regards content and storyline and the last
episodes were really not worth watching,they were that boring.
 There is a sequel to Terry Nations book called the Survivors 2 by
some author I can't remember (again?).This though has very little to
do with the first book or the series and is called a sequel only
because it has the history of the plague and one of the characters
of the first book as its main protagonist (the guys name I think is
Tim,he was the one who shot his mum in the end of the first book).
This apart the book is quiet interesting and well worth the read as
long as you don't expect too much correlation with the series.

                            IAN SEWELL

------------------------------

From: tardis!lucius@caip.rutgers.edu (Lucius Chiaraviglio)
Subject: Re: Immortality vs Sex
Date: 10 Nov 85 07:53:25 GMT

> The issue of immortaility vs Sex is more than just the
> "immortality" of the amoeba issue...
>
> The evolutionary advantage of sexual reproduction is that it
> allows the species to change more rapidly.  But, this change only
> takes place in the offspring - the parents are unchanged.  This
> means that a species as soon as possible, leaving room for more
> offspring.  can maximize its adaptibility/survivability by having
> the parents die as soon as possible, leaving room for more
> offspring.

This doesn't work, because
   1.  Genes evolve to survive better without regard to which
       individual they are surviving in, *but* the parents
       themselves are instances of the gene's survival, and thus
       inherently no worse nor better than the offspring in that
       respect.
   2.  Having the parents die to make way for offspring in no way
       whatsoever helps species adaptability, because if the parents
       are not as well able to adapt to a new condition as the
       offspring they will die anyway.
   3.  Parents are no more or less likely to be better-adapted to
       any particular set of circumstances (putting aside for a
       moment the effects of aging and experience) than any one of
       their offspring, for organisms do not evolve individually --
       evolution occurs on the scale of a group of creatures as
       those that happen to be better fit for the current
       circumstances.  The *only* thing here that favors offspring
       over parents here is that 2 parents can give rise to well
       over 2 offspring, so that statistically better-fit
       individuals are more likely to be among the offspring, but
       only in proportion to the ratio of offspring to parents.

   Thus, aging occurs NOT BECAUSE OF ANY SELECTIVE PRESSURE FOR IT
but BECAUSE OF INSUFFICIENT SELECTIVE PRESSURE AGAINST IT to combat
the effects of accumulating genetic burden.  Thus, our developmental
cycle is like a computer program that has not been debugged beyond a
certain point.

Lucius Chiaraviglio { seismo!tardis!lucius | lucius@tardis.UUCP }

------------------------------

From: olivee!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis)
Subject: Fantasy stationary & cards
Date: 7 Nov 85 22:02:38 GMT

An artist friend of mine has a line of fantasy stationary and
holiday greeting-cards (with centaurs, dragons, unicorns & the
like).

To get a copy of her 5 page catalog, just drop her a note.

Barb Jernigan
212 Kelly Ave
Half Moon Bay, CA 94019
or call
415 726 2674 (eves)
or via the net...
(hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!oliven!barb

...Just thought you sf-lovers might be interested...

Gary
(hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!olivee!gnome

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 14 Nov 85 1155-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #437
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Nov 85 1155-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #437
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 14 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 437

Today's Topics:

      Books - October Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hplabsd!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt)
Subject: October Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit
Date: 11 Nov 85 05:43:09 GMT

This is the October booklist from the OCOH, as copied from SCI-FIDO,
a science-fiction oriented BBS in Oakland CA, (415)655-0667, run by
Mike Farren.  There are discussions of music, and other types of
books on the system, also.

The Other Change of Hobbit
2433 Channing Way
Berkeley, CA  94704
(415) 848-0413

This is our second monthly booklist, covering books received in
October.  Lots of new titles this month, including several that we
are really excited about!

HARDCOVERS AND TRADE PAPERBACKS

Asimov, Isaac           ASIMOV'S GUIDE TO HALLEY'S COMET
                          Non-fiction.
Bellairs, John          THE SPELL OF THE SORCERER'S SKULL
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover; same Edward
                          Gorey cover art.
Benno, Stefani          TERRA!
                          Translation of Italian satire set after a
                          nuclear winter.
Bloch, Robert           HELL ON EARTH
                          Graphic adaptation of 1942 WEIRD TALES
                          story by Keith Giffen (art) and Robert
                          Loren Fleming (text).
Bradbury, Ray           DEATH IS A LONELY BUSINESS
                          His first novel since SOMETHING WICKED
                          THIS WAY COMES!
Brin, David             THE POSTMAN
                          Autographed copies available after
                          November 14.
Charnas, Suzy McKee     THE BRONZE KING
                          ("Delightful young adult novel set in a
                          very well-realized New York City" -
                          Debbie) Also recommended by Tom and Dave.
Dick, Philip K.         PUTTERING ABOUT IN A SMALL LAND
                          First publication of non-sf novel written
                          in the late 50s.
Fonstad, Karen Wynn     THE ATLAS OF THE LAND (hardcover)
                                              (trade paperback)
                          Companion to her volumes for Middle-Earth
                          and Pern.
Forward, Robert L.      STARQUAKE
                          Sequel to DRAGON'S EGG.
Fraser, George          THE PYRATES
    MacDonald             Reprint of 1984 hardcover.
Gardner, John           ON BECOMING A NOVELIST
                          Non-fiction.  Recommended by Jan.
Grant, Charles L. (ed.) SHADOWS 8
                          Original anthology of horror stories.
Gray, Alasdair          1982 JANINE
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover.
Heinlein, Robert A.     THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS:  A Comedy
                        of Manners
                          Gorgeous Whelan jacket painting.
                          ("Newness is no virtue." - the main
                          character.)
Herbert, Frank          EYE
                          Fourth in the Masterworks of Science
                          Fiction and Fantasy - a series of
                          single-author collections edited by Byron
                          Preiss.  Includes a beautiful Arrakeen
                          portfolio by Jim Burns and an original
                          essay by Herbert on the film of DUNE.
Hodgell, P. C.          DARK OF THE MOON
                          Sequel to 1982's GODSTALK; maps laid in.
                          Recommended by Debbie, Tom, Jan and
                          Jennifer.
Hubbard, L. Ron         MISSION EARTH VOLUME I:  THE INVADERS PLAN
                          "Just the first volume of Mission Earth
                          The Biggest Science Fiction Dekalogy Ever
                          Written" - jacket copy.
Johnson, Crockett       A PICTURE FOR HAROLD'S ROOM
                          Reprint of the 1960 hardcover; another
                          great Purple Crayon adventure.
Kay, Guy Gavriel        THE SUMMER TREE
                          Vol. I of The Fionavar Tapestry.  ("Echoes
                          of Tolkien, but not a copy.  Recommended
                          for high fantasy lovers."  - Tom)
Kelly, Walt             OUTRAGEOUSLY POGO
                          This third collection of Pogo and other
                          Kelly miscellany from THE OKEFENOKEE STAR
                          also reprints the complete daily strips
                          from 1951 (only partially reprinted in
                          POGO and I GO POGO)!  (GOOD stuff! - Dave)
Lee, Tanith             THE SILVER METAL LOVER
                          First DAW trade paperback; reprints
                          1981 mass market paperback.
                        THE SILVER METAL LOVER
                          Graphic adaptation by Trina Robbins.
Miller, Walter M. Jr.   BEYOND ARMAGEDDON
  and Martin H.           Anthology of previously published
  Greenberg (eds.)        post-Megawar stories.
Moorcock, Michael       THE LAUGHTER OF CARTHAGE
                          British edition.  First (trade)
                          paperback from 1984 hardcover.  Sequel
                          to BYZANTIUM ENDURES.
Musgrave, Real          REAL FANTASIES
                          Sixth edition of this artist's lovely
                          portfolio.
Norton, Andre and       RIDE THE GREEN DRAGON
   Phyllis Miller         Young adult novel.
Pinkwater, Daniel M.    YOUNG ADULTS
                          Reprints YOUNG ADULT NOVEL, collects
                          two new novellas, plus Macintosh art
                          and a "self"-interview.
                          ("Bizarre fun.  Recommended." - Tom)
Saberhagen, Fred        BERSERKER:  BLUE DEATH
                          Second new Berserker novel this year!
Shirley, John           ECLIPSE
                          Vol. I of the Song Called Youth Trilogy.
Tolkien, J. R. R.       THE LAYS OF BELERIAND
                          The History of Middle-Earth, Vol. III
                          ("This collection of narrative verse
                          includes early Beren and Luthien story;
                          recommended. - Jan)
Tripp, Wallace          MARGUERITE, GO WASH YOUR FEET
                          Companion to GRANFA GRIG HAD A PIG and A
                          GREAT BIG UGLY MAN CAME UP AND TIED HIS
                          HORSE TO ME.  ("Familiar and obscure verse
                          embellished with clever and amusing
                          illustrations.  Delightful." - Debbie)
Trudeau, G. B.          CHECK YOUR EGOS AT THE DOOR
                          Late '84 to early '85 cartoons; proceeds
                          benefit USA FOR AFRICA.

MASS MARKET PAPERBACKS

Adams, Douglas          SO LONG, AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH
                          Reprint of the 1984 hardcover.  "The
                          Fourth Book in the HITCHHIKER'S TRILOGY!"
Anderson, Poul          THE DEVIL'S GAME
                          Reprint of 1980 edition; new cover by
                          Stephen Hickman.
Asimov, Isaac, M. H.    GIANTS
   Greenberg & C. G.      Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of
   Waugh (eds.)           Fantasy # 5.  Anthology of previously
                          published fantasy stories including
                          several classics.
Asprin, Robert Lynn &   THE DEAD OF WINTER
   Lynn Abbey (eds.)      Latest in the Thieves' World (TM) series
                          of shared-world adventures.  New cover
                          format, artist Gary Ruddell replacing
                          Walter Velez, heralds the new quarterly
                          schedule.
Ballard, J. G.          THE UNLIMITED DREAM COMPANY
                          Reprint of 1979 hardcover.
Benford, Gregory &      SHIVA DESCENDING
    William Rotsler       Reprint of 1980 edition.
Blish, James with       STAR TREK (R) 12
    J. A. Lawrence        Back in print after 6 years ...
                          Fortunately, they ditched the idea of
                          renaming it after one of the episodes in
                          it!
Brown, Jerry Earl       DARKHOLD
Campbell, Ramsey        THE FACE THAT MUST DIE
                          Reprint of Scream Press 1983 hardcover.
                          ("Excellent slasher novel" - Dave)
Chalker, Jack           THE DEVIL'S VOYAGE
                          Reprint of 1981 hardcover.  Non-sf novel
                          about the ship that carried the atom bomb
                          to the Pacific Island from which it was
                          launched.
Chant, Joy              THE HIGH KINGS
                          Retains maps and text, but drops
                          illustrations and format of the beautiful
                          coffee-table hardcover.
Cook, Glen              WARLOCK
                          Darkwar Trilogy #2.
Cook, Paul              DUENDE MEADOW
Dahl, Roald             THE BFG
                          ("A nicely done children's story - written
                          with an ear for how it will sound aloud.
                          The language is great fun." - Jennifer)
                        THE WITCHES
                          ("A good story, but a little uneven.  An
                          even shorter read than THE BFG."  -
                          Jennifer)
Delaney, Joseph         IN THE FACE OF THE ENEMY
                          Novel incorporating the short story of the
                          same title, but the gay content has been
                          excised.
Dick, Philip K.         VALIS
                          New cover on this dense and provocative
                          novel which began a new phase of Dick's
                          career.
Dickson, Gordon R.      BEYOND THE DAR AL-HARB
                          Collection of two novelettes (1964 and
                          1972) and a previously unpublished short
                          novel.
                        INVADERS!
                          *gasp* A non-repetitive collection (only
                          one story previously in a Dickson
                          collection).  Maybe they ran out of old
                          ones to cannibalize?
                        SECRETS OF THE DEEP
                          Collects the three young adult novels
                          SECRET UNDER THE SEA (1960), SECRET UNDER
                          ANTARCTICA (1963) and SECRET UNDER THE
                          CARIBBEAN (1964).  Only the first ever had
                          a paperback before.
Foster, M.A.            PRESERVER
                          Conclusion of The Morphodite trilogy.
Frakes, Randall &       THE TERMINATOR
    Bill Wisher           The American (and second, following
                          the British) novelization of the
                          1984 movie.
Harrison, Harry         SKYFALL
                          Reprint of the 1976 hardcover.
Hartwell, David         AGE OF WONDERS
                          Photoreduced reprint of the 1984
                          hardcover, including the many typos.
                          Still an interesting (and controversial)
                          overview of sf by the editor of the late
                          lamented Timescape Books.  Recommended by
                          Debbie, Dave and Tom.
Heinlein, Robert A.     JOB:  A Comedy of Justice
                          Reprint of the 1984 hardcover.  1985
                          Hugo nominee.
Hughes, Edward P.       THE LONG MYND
                          Novel incorporating first of the charming
                          Dafydd stories from FANTASY & SCIENCE
                          FICTION.
Ing, Dean               WILD COUNTRY
                          Sequel to SYSTEMIC SHOCK and SINGLE
                          COMBAT.
Johnson, Crockett       BARNABY #1:  WANTED:  A FAIRY GODFATHER
                                #2:  MR. O'MALLEY AND THE HAUNTED
                                     HOUSE
                          ("Anyone not familiar with this 1940s
                          cartoon strip is missing a great treat!
                          If you are familiar with it, all you need
                          to know is that these volumes reprint all
                          the strips, not just the ones that were in
                          earlier books.  Don't miss these--if you
                          don't buy them, Del Rey may not reprint
                          the rest."  - Debbie) Also recommended by
                          Tom and Dave.
Kahn, James             WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME
                          Reprint of 1980 paperback.
                        TIME'S DARK LAUGHTER
                          Reprint of 1982 paperback; sequel to
                          WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME.
King, Stephen &         THE TALISMAN
    Peter Straub          Reprint of 1984 hardcover.  1985
                          World Fantasy Award nominee.  ("Overly
                          long and repetitive - but when you're this
                          successful, nobody edits you." - Tom)
Kotzwinkle, William     QUEEN OF SWORDS
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover.
Larson, Majliss         PAWNS AND SYMBOLS
                          Pocket Books Star Trek (R) novel #26.
Laumer, Keith           THE OTHER SKY/THE HOUSE IN NOVEMBER
                          A Tor Double (in the old two-sided style
                          made famous by Ace).  This combination
                          appeared previously in a non-flippable
                          from Tor in 1981.  THE OTHER SKY's
                          previous title was GREYLORN.
Lee, Tanith             DAYS OF GRASS
                          Science fiction novel; Whelan cover.
LeGuin, Ursula K.       THE DISPOSSESSED
                          This outstanding Hugo- and Nebula- winning
                          novel doesn't deserve a cover which pays
                          homage to 1930s space opera.  Like the
                          previous paperback, this drops the great
                          subtitle, "An Ambiguous Utopia."
Lovelock, James &       THE GREENING OF MARS
    Michael Allaby        Reprint of 1984 hardcover.
                          Fictionalized futurism.
MacDonald, George       AT THE BACK OF THE NORTH WIND
                          Reprint of 1871 novel.
McEvoy, Seth            NOT QUITE HUMAN (TM) #1:  BATTERIES NOT
                                                  INCLUDED
                                             #2:  ALL GEARED UP
                          Young Android novels.
Meluch, R. M.           JERUSALEM FIRE

Michaels, Melisa C.     FIRST BATTLE
                          Skyrider #2 (but not packaged like
                          a sequel).
Nelson, Ray Faraday     TIMEQUEST
                          Revised version of BLAKE'S PROGRESS.
Pournelle, Jerry        RED HEROIN
                          Non-sf thriller previously published
                          in 1969 under the pseudonym "Wade
                          Curtis."
Robbins, Tom            JITTERBUG PERFUME
                          Reprint of the 1984 hardcover.
Sagan, Carl             COSMOS
                          Reprint of the 1980 hardcover; the book of
                          the TV series.
Saha, Arthur W. (ed.)   THE YEAR'S BEST FANTASY STORIES:  11
Schmidt, Dennis         WANDERER
                          The fourth Kensho book; sequel to
                          WAYFARER, KENSHO and SATORI (which are all
                          out of print now but will be made
                          available again soon).
Siegel, Robert          WHALESONG
                          Reprint of the 1981 hardcover.
Silverberg, Robert      GILGAMESH THE KING
                          Reprint of the 1984 hardcover.
                        NEEDLE IN A TIMESTACK
                          First American edition of the 1979 revised
                          edition of this 1966 collection retains
                          four stories, replaces the other six with
                          five others, four of which appeared in THE
                          REALITY TRIP (1972) and one in THE CUBE
                          ROOT OF UNCERTAINTY.  Don't blame us;
                          write to Ace.
Snyder, Zilpha Keatly   UNTIL THE CELEBRATION
                          The third book of Green Sky, following
                          BELOW THE ROOT and AND ALL BETWEEN.
Vance, Jack             THE DRAGONMASTERS
                          Switched publishers (within corporate
                          umbrella); retained cover.  1963 Hugo
                          winner--Best Novel.
                        RHIALTO THE MARVELOUS
                           Reprint of 1984 hardcover; contains
                           three connected Dying Earth novelettes
                           and a teaser story by C. J. Cherryh
                           for HEROES FROM HELL, coming early
                           next year.  (They must have had extra
                           space ... )
Vardeman, Robert E. &   BLOOD FOUNTAIN
   George W. Proctor       Book #3 of Swords of Raemllyn.
Varley, John            DEMON
                           Reprint 1984 hardcover; long-awaited
                           conclusion to the Gaean trilogy.
                           Recommended by Debbie.
Watkins, William John   THE CENTRIFUGAL RICKSHAW DANCER
                           Do you think he put an "h" in his
                           middle name for his fourth book, or
                           do you think the publishers goofed?
                           ("Not as good as its title, but loaded
                           with interesting concepts." - Debbie)
Westall, Robert         THE DEVIL ON THE ROAD
                           Reprint of a 1978 hardcover; would
                           have been a MagicQuest.
                           Recommended by Dave and Debbie.
Whiteford, Wynne        THOR'S HAMMER
                           First published in Australia, 1983.
Williamson, Jack        LIFEBURST
                           Reprint of 1984 hardcover.
                           ("Old master succeeds at modern sf
                           novel. Can someone translate the
                           Swahili for me? - Dave")

ERRATUM: Last month's list mentioned Carl Sagan's first novel,
"COSMOS."  It is actually entitled CONTACT.  COSMOS is, of course,
the book of the TV show, as mentioned above.

!hplabs!faunt   faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 85 0848-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #438
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 438

Today's Topics:

        Books - Hodgell & Moore & Story Requests (3 msgs) &
                Request Answered,
        Television - Amazing Stories (3 msgs) & Star Trek,
        Miscellaneous - Contacting Authors &
                Fourth Street Fantasy Convention &
                Immortality vs Love

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 85 05:28:01 pst
From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: Godstalk

>>A crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably
>>cute talking cats.  Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's
>>"Breed to Come".  Not recommended.
>
>WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  I *never* in the 5 times that I have read
>the book found "cute talking cats". Nor did I think it was crying
>for a sequel.

Typical scene:
  Jame wakes up.  large object on Jame's chest.  what could it be?
It is a cat.  Jame closes eyes again and contemplates Kencyr racial
memory of times when her claws were not so recessed.  Why is it so
hard to breathe?  oh yeah, there is a cat on chest.
  She was trying to dislodge the beast, who only responded with a
loud purr, when a woman darted into the room crying "Boo, you great
lump!"... and so on Be warned.

As for sequels, Hodgell has a talent for names: Perimal Darkling,
Archiem, Cleppety, Marplet, Tai-Weir, Tai-Sondre, Tai-Tastigon, The
Bay of Benitar..

Hundreds and hundreds of names, all good and confusing.  Did I miss
an explanation somewhere?  Maybe I should read one of the three
Appendices now?  Will it spoil anything?  (yes.).  too bad.  By the
end of the book everything is clear?

>As for it being a rewrite of "Breed to Come", I can't say, cause I
>have never read that particular book of Norton's.

I guess you have a treat in store.  Both books are about catlike
beings exploring strange cities in a world where Man is not as we
know him.

------------------------------

From: mtuxo!jrrt@caip.rutgers.edu (r.mitchell)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction
Date: 11 Nov 85 22:04:49 GMT

> From: Jessie Tharp <ops@ncsc>

You listed a few men who treated women intelligently.  I'd add one
name to the list; a man who has had a believeable, intelligent woman
as a main character in every one of his novels.  The man is Carl
Sagan, and the best example of this is his latest, CONTACT.

You listed C. L. Moore as having women in traditional roles.  I
won't argue, not having read much of her work, but at least one book
is (was) quite innovative.  JIREL OF JOIRY is a book recently
re-issued by Ace Fantasy.  It's a collection of 5 novellas from the
'30s, all of which center on Jirel, the warrior-leader of Joiry.

It's not a hack-and-slash-Red-Sonja-type fantasy.  Moore is very
skillful in crafting a grim environment, and in developing the
character of Jirel, a tragically-flawed heroine in the spirit of
Moorcock's Elric, although pre-dating Elric by decades.

Jirel is a strong, vibrant woman, who survives as a warrior without
losing sight of her femininity.  By that, I mean she's not just a
male-character-with-a-lumpy-chestplate.  She's aware that she's a
woman in a man's world.  She doesn't let that fact intimidate her;
she just sets her goals and works toward them, knowing that many
people will misjudge her because of her sex.  Considering the era
these stories first came out ('34-'39), Moore does a credible job in
letting us see how Jirel responds to being "violated" (a barbarian
chieftain kissing her against her will) in a way that draws clear
analogies to the modern-day concern about rape.

Anyway, these stories are quite different from the run-of-the-mill
macho warrior fantasy epic.  I'd suggest they are worth reading.

Rob Mitchell
{allegra,ihnp4}!mtuxo!jrrt

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC
Subject: name that religion
Date: 12 Nov 85 01:48:24 GMT

Does anybody remember a novel that featured a religion based on
Gladly the cross-eyed bear?  As I remember, this groaner occured
early in the book--in my opinion, too bad, the rest of the book went
downhill from there, and I think the rest of the book had little to
do with this scenario so I always thought it was a cheap stunt.

I'd like to know so that I don't accidentally buy this book again.
:-)

L S Chabot   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot

------------------------------

From: hplabsc!brengle@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Brengle)
Subject: Book/title needed.
Date: 12 Nov 85 01:59:31 GMT

My hope is that someone out there has read the same sort of weird
stuff I have...

Somewhere around 15 years ago, when books consisting of three
novellas were in vogue, I read a story in one that I would really
like to reread.

The protagonist is a private eye (I think), and gets a call to go to
a hotel where he finds a message board with a listing for a
"Witches' Covention".  He thinks that it is a misprint, but it turns
out not to be.  True names have power.  There is a woman/girl named
Ariel (and we find out at the very end that her true name is also
Ariel) whose father uses mathematics to control magic.  I remember
his writing an equation on the doorstep which caused the door to
remain locked until the cancelling equation was written on the other
side.

I am pretty sure that it is the last story in the book.

Any pointers?

Thanks in advance,
  Tim Brengle

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Worried about a title
Date: 11 Nov 85 20:35:59 GMT

        I am in the process of writing a story about your favorite
cliche and mine, that of the infinite desirability of human women.
Hopefully I'll be doing something new or at least interesting with
the idea.  The working title is "The Alien's Woman" and I was
wondering if this title was taken.  Can anyone help me out?

P.S.  Thanks to everyone who responded to my query on how to get
      published.  No, I haven't heard word from F&SF about the story
      I sent them.  It's been three weeks, and I can only hope
      that's a good sign.  If they buy it, the net will be the first
      to know.  If not, I'll try to get back to those who wrote and
      expressed an interest in discussing things.

Mark!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 85 16:17:16 EST
From: Melinda Berkman <mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA>
Subject: story request

I am fairly certain that the recent request for identification of a
novel about a high-rise living space, with floors divided into
neighborhoods, and doors left open at night to facilitate
partner-swapping, was a book by Barry Malzberg, a name that doesn't
come up here too often.  I'm sorry that I can't give the the name of
the book, as I'm not too fond of this author and the novel didn't
make it past the twice-a-decade sweep of my shelves to make room for
new stuff.  I do recall that there was a number in the title.  I'm
sure Jerry Boyajian could fill in the details.  It was the only one
of his books that I came close to liking.

------------------------------

From: isis!aburt@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Burt)
Subject: Spielberg's sources discovered!
Date: 10 Nov 85 07:17:10 GMT

Contrary to the suggestion by the net.aviation folks that Spielberg
scans the net for interesting Amazing Stories ideas, I suspect he
uses methods far more devious -- he reads Andy Rooney.

I'd like to draw your attention to an anecdote in Rooney's new book,
"Pieces of my mind", entitled "Reunion" (page 321 in the paperback
edition).  It seems the story about the trapped ball-turret gunner
is true...  Ol' Andy was a reporter for Stars and Stipes, and at
some point recently returned to England for a reunion of the 306th
Bomb Group.  In his description of the reunion he writes:

   Often the bombers came back badly damanged and with crew members
   dead or dying.  In April of 1943 I was here when they came back
   from a raid deep in Germany and one of the pilots radioed in that
   he was going to have to make an emgergency landing.  He had only
   two engines left and his hydraulic system was gone.  He couldn't
   let the wheels down and there was something even worse.  The
   ball-turret gunner was trapped in the plastic bubble that hung
   beneath the belly of the bomber.

   Later I talked with the crewman who survived that landing.  Their
   friend in the ball-turret had been calm, they said.  They had
   talked to him.  He knew what they had to do.  He understood.  The
   B-17 slammed down on its belly... and on the ball turret with
   their comrade trapped inside it.

I suspect such a story was big news back then.  Does anyone remember
anything of this sort (of those net-landers old enough to have been
around and alert)?  It's easy to see how Spielberg got wind of it,
though.

I missed the first ten minutes or so; was there any sort of
dedication of the episode to that poor fellow and his family?  (Now
THAT would have been a good rating grabber!)  Did anyone catch what
military unit the B-17 was part of?

Ah, well, the most amazing stories in life are true.  In light of
this I can see why he opted for the cartoon ending (which I thought
was a cop out) -- it wouldn't do to present a true story when the
format of the show is for the surreal.  The real ending would have
been good drama, too.  (Heaven forbid A.S. should be good drama in
addition to flat characters and thin plots.)  But, of course, it
violates the, "Thou shalt not leave thy viewers depressed"
commandment.

Overall, I thought the hour show was well done, but for the ending
they tacked on it would better have been a half-hour segment.  The
other episodes to date have left me underwhelmed.  On the other
hand, if there were more substance on TV I wouldn't have so much
time to read news...

Andrew Burt
University of Denver
Department of Math and Computer Science
UUCP:   {hao, nbires}!isis!aburt
CSNet:  aburt@UDENVER

------------------------------

From: tolerant!waynet@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Thompson)
Subject: Re: Computer Animation in Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 10 Nov 85 21:21:52 GMT

> The one thing that amazed me about the Amazing Stories episode
> "The Mission" is the computer graphics, which were so good that
> nobody on the net has even mentioned them!
> David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP]

I thought the computer graphics were laughably obvious, thus my
reference to 'Amazing Big Cartoon Wheels. BTW, If the debris was CA
I missed it.

Wayne Thompson
..(mordor,ucbvax)!tolerant!waynet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 85 14:34 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: AS's 'The Mission'

    FYI (and according to my bomber-type flying friends): There
really was an incident (sans Speilberg's ending) involving a gunner
trapped in the belly turret of a returning crippled
aircraft...unfortunately, the ending was not as pleasant.  (By the
by, there were probably more than one such incident.)
    For those interested in 'realism', the flyers also said that the
tear in the 'chute would not have prevented a successful bailout and
subsequent chute-opening.  They have a term for it (something about
a three-line ?? chute)--but I am neither a flyer nor a parachutist,
so it went in one ear and out the other!

Roz

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468)
Subject: Star Trek Blooper Reel? :-)
Date: 11 Nov 85 11:28:36 GMT

   PLEASE! Does anyone out there know if the Star Trek Blooper
compilation is available on video (in the U.K.)? Is 'The Cage'
available?
   I've got to see it.. I've got to..got to..arrggghhhh. Thump.

Andy T.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 12 Nov 85 14:24:50-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Reaching Harlan Ellison (and other Famous Authors) ---
Subject: DON'T!!!

Harlan Ellison (this previous weekend at Sci-Con 7 in Virginia
Beach) described in detail why he did not want people to write, call
or visit him.  Apparently, he gets 200 letters a week (a day? I
don't remember), phone calls in the middle of the night, people
sleeping in his car (if they couldn't reach him, it seems to be the
next best thing).  Yes, he says, he realizes that his stories may be
important to you, but he won't be able to write any more of them if
you bother him anymore.

Harlan may seem cold to you for saying this, but his time is the
only thing he has sell.

Apparently, Stephen King has it a thousand times worse.  Harlan also
mentioned some incidents with fans ranging from abusive behavior
(with neutral witnesses to verify Harlan's side) to abuse of a
writer's daughter by a fan the author allowed to stay overnight.

Of course, if you want to offer him money to write a story, or
lecture, or whatever, you can find his number in the LA phone book
-- that's why it's there.  But please don't abuse it.

I have a feeling most writers should not be bothered -- letters are
good, because they can be answered with a form or a postcard (Harlan
is unusual for his request that letters not be sent)-- and certainly
not by phone or in person.  If you want to get a response, why not
write to a new author or a less-famous old-timer?  The famous and
popular authors have too many fans for their own good.

[end flame]

wz

------------------------------

From: hyper!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust)
Subject: Fourth Street Fantasy Convention
Date: 8 Nov 85 15:22:37 GMT

Today is the first day of the rest...no, I just can't do it.

As my last posting for a while (I'm still hoping to find a machine
that will run EMACS, give me a UUCP node, and is free), I would like
to tell everyone here about --

                  Fourth Street Fantasy Convention
              ("Best Fantasy Convention on the Block")

June 20 and 21, 1986, at the Minneapolis Plaza Hotel,
315 Nicollet Mall, Minneapolis, Minnesota,  55401
(612)332-4000

Guest of Honor: Roger Zelazny
Guest Editor: Terri Windling
Guest Agent: Valerie Smith
Guest Artist: [Being negotiated]
Godfather: David Hartwell

We're defining fantasy as just about anything except hard SF and
horror.  Mainstream?  Well, sure, if you want...

There will be no costume show.  There will be no movies.
There will be no gaming rooms.  There will be no video.

There will be a Huckster room and an art show, and there will be
panels.  Some of the topics for the panels (this is all tentative)
are:

Philosophy of Cover Art
Relationship between Author and Editor
How does a writer avoid stagnation?
Moral Fiction--Does it exist?  Who's responsible?
Influence of Tolkien for good or ill

If this sounds stuffy or boring, then I expect you will find the
convention stuffy or boring too, so DON'T COME!  If this sounds
interesting, call or write to:

        Reen or Steven Brust
        4880 106th Ave. NE
        Circle Pines, Mn.   55014
        (612)784-2437

Or make contact with Joel Halpern via UUCP at--
...!hyper!jmh

I hope to see all of you there, or back on the net, or somewhere
else.

Steven Brust

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Immortality vs Love
Date: 11 Nov 85 13:27:16 GMT

We've had the articles about immortality & sex being mutually
exclusive, now what about immortality and love? I don't mean society
wise, but - well, if you were made immortal, eternal youth, the
whole bit, would you be able to fall in love? Would you let yourself
fall in love? Would you no longer feel it a workable proposition?
Why does nobody (nobody I know) feel they are equal to immortality?
Is it good old Hubris, or actually unworkable? I feel very strongly
about this, having written a novel on the effects of an individual's
immortality. I eventually came to (among other things) the
conclusion that you had to be some kind of psychopath to survive an
immortal lifetime, and thus the sort of person that *has* to
dominate. One last thought. My immortal had the power to 'bestow'
immortality. Who gets to choose?

R. Ramsay
Westfield College

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 85 0910-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #439
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 439

Today's Topics:

           Books - Heinlein & Lovecraft & In Medias Res &
                   Marshak and Culbreath & Thieve's World &
                   Story Request & Request Answered,
           Television - Star Trek (4 msgs),
           Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction
Date: 12 Nov 85 18:36:49 GMT

How can anyone read _Podkayne of Mars_ and then say that Heinlein's
juveniles deal honestly with women?

The juveniles consistently show female characters in traditionally
feminine roles, hiding their intelligence, and even using sex to get
what they want from men.  The only exception to this is the female
character (Betty?) in _The Star Beast_, and *she* was portrayed as
being bossy (note the negative connotation!).

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: 'Herbert West--The Re-Animator' (Lovecraft)
Date: 13 Nov 85 12:52:21 GMT

         "Herbert West--The Re-Animator" by H. P. Lovecraft
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Having recently seen the film RE-ANIMATOR, I was curious to
read the H.  P. Lovecraft story on which the film claimed to be
based, "Herbert West--The Re-Animator".  I found it in a British
paperback, DAGON AND OTHER MACABRE TALES by Lovecraft.  Reading it,
I got some insight into how the author must have used his name to
get stories published.  At first it would appear to be one story in
six chapters.  It quickly becomes apparent as each chapter is
self-contained and re-introduces the characters that this is not one
story in six chapters, but six stories which must have been
published separately.  The stories must have been collected without
re-editing and called a single story.  However, if one reads still
further it dawns on the reader that this is not six stories but one
story told six times with minor variations.  Lovecraft wrote these
stories much the way Kelly Freas did covers for Laser Books or
producers make FRIDAY THE 13TH films.

     Lovecraft churned out these stories by formula.  He introduces
the main character and Herbert West, sating how they met in medical
school.  He says that West re-animated the dead and it caused
trouble in the past.  Then he explains the new experiment and how by
bringing someone or something back from the dead, West had created a
really hideous being, that if you saw it it would really scare the
Bejesus out of you.  Actually, the closest analogy to this style of
story-telling is that of the Hammer "Frankenstein" series, in which
the scientist tries a different experiment in each film, but they
all seem to end in shambling horror.

     Lovecraft told this same story six times and was probably paid
as if each was an original.  In actual fact, the film was probably
no worse than the story.  It did use a number of ideas from the
story and molded them together into a seventh Herbert West story,
somewhat more complex than the first six, but not all that
different.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Nov 85 04:00:25 EST
From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ a.psy.cmu.edu
Subject: In Medias Res

Ellison did it in "Repent, Harlequin!" Said The Ticktockman.  He
even signposted it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 85 12:40 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: Marshak and Culbreath

The division in fannish opinion is pretty much for all the Marshak
and Culbreath books.  I guess you're either "into" that style or
not.  Of the people I've talked about those books (maybe that comes
to 1 or 2 dozen) I'd say opinions are about half and half pro and
con.

The New Voyages stories most severely edited were "Ni Var" and "Mind
Sifter."  I've read both originals and do feel that the editing did
a terrible injustice to the stories.

"Mind Sifter" was by Shirley Maiewski, now the head the of the Star
Trek Welcommittee.  Some of her comments on the treatment of her
story were in a LoC she sent to my newsletter, the Propagator and
appeared in Issue 9, May 1985.  Here are some excerpts:

>Frankly, people have asked why I don't write more after the success
>(!)  of "Mind Sifter"... long story, but two main reasons - first,
>the damage done to my story by the editors (without my knowledge or
>permission), secondly, the thought that anything else I might write
>would be torn apart by the "experts."  Best reasons in the world
>for a terminal case of Writer's Block.

>The problems that arose around Star Trek: The New Voyages, and my
>story "Mind Sifter" were caused by the things the editors PUT IN,
>which I did not know about until I bought the book.  Many people
>have written to say that my story was their favorite, and I am
>pleased that they received enjoyment from reading it as published.
>Of course, I should have had a contract with the editors and the
>publisher, but I confess, I did not know better at that time!  As a
>member of SFWA, the Science Fiction Writers of America, I now know
>all about contracts and galley-proofs and authors' rights - things
>I knew nothing about when my story was selected for the book.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 85 11:34 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Thieve's World

I just picked up the 7th Thieve's World collection call The Dead of
Winter and it looks pretty good.  I will review it after I read it.
However, I was wondering if anyone has read the novels that are
supposed to go along the shorts.  There is one Beyond the Wizardwall
or somesuch and a few others that are written by Janet Morris, I
believe.  Any word?  And how does my favorite, Tempus, do?  I hope
he has a large role.

Jon

------------------------------

From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 11 Nov 85 19:47:00 GMT

A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again --
based on a society of all males.  They were humans; their ancestors
had been in a space disaster that had stranded them without women on
some previously uninhabited planet.  The survivors of the disaster
had cloning technology that they used for domestic animals, and they
adapted the technology to themselves.  The society had become
primitive, and no longer understood their own reproduction, but were
able to maintain and utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors
had set up.  A pretty interesting story was placed in this society.
Does this sound familiar to anyone?

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Book/title needed.
Date: 12 Nov 85 23:25:19 GMT

brengle@hplabsc.UUCP (Tim Brengle) writes:
> The protagonist is a private eye (I think), and gets a call to go
> to a hotel where he finds a message board with a listing for a
> "Witches' Covention".  He thinks that it is a misprint, but it
> turns out not to be.  True names have power.  There is a
> woman/girl named Ariel (and we find out at the very end that her
> true name is also Ariel) whose father uses mathematics to control
> magic.  I remember his writing an equation on the doorstep which
> caused the door to remain locked until the cancelling equation was
> written on the other side.

The book is now in print as a small novel.  MAGICIANS by James Gunn.
The premise is that it's possible to work magic if you believe that
what you're trying to do will work and if you can properly visualize
or conceptualize what you want done.  In other words magic is a
two-step process, tapping the power and then properly controlling
it.  In the MAGICIANS, there are two types of magicians, people who
have discovered magic through mathematics and realized that
mathematics can be used to control the power with a great deal of
precision and the "traditional" magicians who use rituals,
sacrifice, believe in demons & devils, etc.  The traditional
magicians led by one called Solomon are trying to seize control of
the society by eliminating anyone who would stand in their way.  The
protagonist stumbles across the society of magicians and becomes
involved in the struggle.

It's a good read.  Nothing too deep, but it's fun and it definitely
presents an interesting view of magic.  You can probably find it on
the shelf of any major book-chain in the science-fiction section.
(I found it in either Waldenbooks or B. Dalton's many years back.)

I liked it.  Hope you find a copy.

Ray Chen
gitpyr!chen
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!!
Date: 10 Nov 85 15:56:18 GMT

Your cup runneth over.  Niven (The Slaver Wepaon << good) and
Gerrold (More Tribbles, More Troubles << awful; Bem << brilliant)
both did animated Star Trek episodes.  But not Sturgeon or Ellison.
Koenig's Infinite Vulcan is actually a good story, filling in some
of the history of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s, but suffers from a
problem that plagued the animated series as a whole: they threw in a
20-meter-tall Mr. Spock for no better justification that the fact
that, because the show is animated, it would be fun to draw him that
way.

The series suffers from a second major problem: retreads.  Far too
many episodes are just mediocre sequels or inferior rehashings of
live episodes.  The aforementioned Tribbles is perhaps the worst
offender, but there's an awful sequel to Shore Leave, a version of
"Who Mourns for Adonais" with an American Indian God, a version of
"Menagerie" with elephant-like captors, and yet another story about
a cloud creature, not to mention another Harry Mudd story.

Some examples of the first problem occur to me: the crew shrinks
(Terratin incidnet), the crew gets old (Loreli Signal), the crew
turns blue (Albatross), Kirk and Spock turn into Creatures from the
Black Lagoon (The Ambergris Element) ...

Oh, and more: the crew ages backwards, the gravity goes off ...
anything that would be fun to draw, regardless of whether it made
any sense at all.

There were some good episodes: Yesteryear, Slaver Weapon, Bem, I
liked Albatross, too ...

One more retread: Ted Baxter beams aboard pretending to be an
octopus version of the incredible salt vampire ...

Enough!

RJS in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!!
Date: 11 Nov 85 22:37:00 GMT

The episode I saw at 5:30 pm Saturday 11/9 was "The Infinite
Vulcan".  They're showing an episode three times each weekend.  I
understood these were repeats of the same episode, but I didn't
verify that.  Can anyone verify whether they repeated the same
episode all three times?

When these were on Saturday morning TV, I remember seeing all but
one episode.  They have always seemed to me to vary a lot in
quality, but when you consider that they were intended for kiddie
audiences, I guess they're not too bad.  Some are very good even for
adult audiences.

------------------------------

From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!!
Date: 18 Nov 85 05:07:00 GMT

> The episode I saw at 5:30 pm Saturday 11/9 was "The Infinite
> Vulcan".  They're showing an episode three times each weekend.  I
> understood these were repeats of the same episode, but I didn't
> verify that.  Can anyone verify whether they repeated the same
> episode all three times?

Apparently they're showing different episodes in each time slot.
They had "More Tribbles, More Troubles" on Saturday morning, and the
episode were Spock goes back in time to save his own life on Sunday
morning.
                        Scott McEwan
                        {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan

------------------------------

From: unc!black@caip.rutgers.edu (Samuel Black)
Subject: National Tribble Day
Date: 8 Nov 85 16:12:23 GMT

Dateline Starfleet Command
-------- --------- -------

On December 29, 1967, the world first saw "The Trouble with
Tribbles."  At the end of that episode comes the following dialogue
(paraphrased):

   Kirk:   ... You'll have to clean up all the tribbles on
           K-7, Mr. Jones.

   Cyrano: Kirk, friend Kirk, that's inhuman.  It'll take
           years!

   Spock:  17.9 to be exact.

Well, folks, you guessed it.  17.9 years from that first airing of
TTWT brings us to November 23, 1985.  I hereby declare that date as
National Tribble Day!

...!{decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!unc!black       (usenet)
black%unc@csnet-relay.csnet             (arpanet)

------------------------------

From: tellab3!thoth@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus Hall)
Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2
Date: 11 Nov 85 18:37:38 GMT

#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>Just imagine the whole thing with one dimesion more, our universe
>being the 3-dimensional surface of a 4-dimensional balloon. (Ever
>blown up a 4-D balloon?)
>
>But, to put some speculation in the time travel thing: Think of
>time being the fourth dimension. So as time goes by, we (our
>universe) gets alway farther away from the center of our 4-D
>balloon.  And if we should travel in time, we should be able to
>stay always on the same radius of that sphere, and by this stay at
>the same place in space.

This opens the door for yet another potential problem of time
travel.  Why would one stay on the same radius of the expanding
sphere?  What if time travel caused you to stay in the same place in
4D space?  Travel through time would then cause one to leave our
universe and presumably end up in some other universe!  An
intersting thought.  Do all universes expand from the same point?
Are there many universes stacked adjacent to each other all
expanding from this point?  Are there actually many points that
universes are expanding from but the meta-universe is mostly void?
What happens when two expanding universes collide?

At any rate, if one argues that time travel should leave the
traveler in the same absolute location (whatever that means), does
that imply that they fall out of the universe which expands away
from them?

marcus hall
..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_ajsk@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Simon Kay)
Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2
Date: 14 Nov 85 00:19:14 GMT

> What if time travel caused you to stay in the same place in 4D
> space?  Travel through time would then cause one to leave our
> universe and presumably end up in some other universe!  An
> intersting thought.  Do all universes expand from the same point?
> Are there many universes stacked adjacent to each other all
> expanding from this point?  Are there actually many points that
> universes are expanding from but the meta-universe is mostly void?
> What happens when two expanding universes collide?
>
> At any rate, if one argues that time travel should leave the
> traveler in the same absolute location (whatever that means), does
> that imply that they fall out of the universe which expands away
> from them?
>
> marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth

You are forgetting one thing: that normal time does not exist
outside spacetime, by definition.  Therefore, I think that probably
for the time traveler, all times would have to exist.  Think of it
not interms of a balloon but an infinite number of balloons one
inside the other infinitely close to each other.  Each balloon then
represents the universe at a given moment.  Thus a time traveler
would not be leaving space-time forever, but would merely be
traveling to another "balloon."
                                          Jonathan Kay
seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!jhunix!ins_ajsk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 85 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #440
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 440

Today's Topics:

        Books - Adams & Asimov & Barnes (2 msgs) & Brunner &
                King & Wyndham & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs),
        Television - Robotech & Captain Harlock,
        Miscellaneous - SF Cons List Updated & Space Is Clean

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1985 16:44:03 PST
Subject: HGttG
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

Now availible:

"The Original HITCHHIKER Radio Scripts" by Douglas Adams, the
complete and unedited scripts from the original BBC Radio Show.
Includes notes by Adams on the show (such as where the name
Slartibartfast came from) and previously censored material.

Published by Harmony Books, NY.
                        Alan

------------------------------

From: rti-sel!rcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Random)
Subject: Re: Robots and Empire
Date: 13 Nov 85 13:58:58 GMT

JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes:
>Remember me, I'm the guy who had the audacity to enjoy one of
>Asimov's later works, specifically Robots of Dawn, and to actually
>think it better than the God's Themselves!!
>
>Well, I'm going to hang myself again and highly recommend Robots
>and Empire.  No spoilers here. I believe it to be classic Asimov.
>It is the pivotal novel in Asimov's quest to tie together the
>Empire novels and the Robot novels.

I most stongly agree. I liked robots of dawn and I just finished
robots and empire. They both continue the fine tradition of caves of
steel and the naked sun. Highly recommended.

Random
Research Triangle Institute
...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb

------------------------------

From: pedsgd!bobh@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran)
Subject: Re: Steve Barnes
Date: 13 Nov 85 12:57:56 GMT

>From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>You may have noticed that Steve Barnes wrote the Twilight Zone
>episode, Teacher's Aide, that aired on 8 November.  He also wrote
>Dream Park with Larry Niven and a story in Niven's The Magic May
>Return.  Does anybody know of anything else he has written?

He and Niven had a second collaboration, "The Descent of Anasazi",
paperback by Tor Books.  Premise is an American-built space
station declares independence and gets into trouble from industrial
terrorists while trying to deliver its first payload of super-cable
(sounding suspiciously like Ringworld shadow-square wire).

Bob Halloran
Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG
UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\
         {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh
USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724
DDD: (201) 758-7000

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Steve Barnes
Date: 14 Nov 85 03:07:59 GMT

Well, since no one else has reponded yet...

Steven Barnes has written one solo novel that I know of, named
STREET LETHAL.  It's set in a very Blade-runner-ish/Neuromancer type
world, grim, grey, and the big guys/crime bosses rule.

The protagonist (Aubrey something-or-other) is a null-boxer.  Null
boxing being basically what it sounds like, in a sphere in zero gee.
What makes a null-boxer special is that he has to able to inflict
physical damage without the benefit of gravity.  If you've ever done
any serious fighting (martial arts, boxing, etc.) just think about
this for a while.

The story has a number of plot-lines that eventually converge,
involving a struggle for power within an organized crime family, a
strange new drug, Aubrey's revenge for being framed and sent to
prison, and Aubrey's mental and emotional change from a skilled
brawler to an emerging master (in the traditional martial art sense
of the word).

This isn't a book I'd recommend for everyone.  I liked and thought
it was very good.  The real story is about power, honor, fighting,
and people.  There's a good deal of philosophy woven into the book.
Because of the themes, though, it's a very intense novel with quite
a bit of violence and anger.

Chances are, though, you'll either think it was good at the end, or
you won't make it through middle.

If you can, though, try it and see.  I think Barnes is a pretty good
writer.  Solid prose, and his characterizations are far far better
than Niven's.  (I shudder to think what would have happened if Niven
had written Dream Park alone...)  Not to mention a very nice plot
line.  (Which I won't spoil, no, no, no, arghhh....)

Ray Chen
gitpyr!chen
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen

------------------------------

From: pixdoc!vsh@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Harris)
Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2
Date: 14 Nov 85 16:15:05 GMT

re. this discussion -- there is a wonderful sci-fi novel on multiple
universes and time travel.  John Brunner's "The Infinitive of Go".

Steve Harris
Pixel Systems Inc.
300 Wildwood Street
Woburn, MA  01801
617-933-7735 x2314
{allegra|ihnp4|cbosgd|ima|genrad|amd|harvard}!wjh12!pixel!pixdoc!vsh

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 Nov 85 13:05:48-PST
From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: King/Thinner kind of a review

Some of you may recall that just weeks ago I said I was gone
forever.  (You won't have Bob Sheleg to kick around anymore).
Sorry, I guess I'm addicted.

I'll admit to having read Thinner.  I've read a lot of King's work.
It's quality varies GREATLY, I mean even in the same work (or in the
same chapter, or on the same page (!)).  At it's best it's
excellent.  At it's worst, it's awful.  You'd be better off watching
Dallas, or Houston, or paint dry.  Usually the problem is it's just
too wordy!!  Turn the page....unneeded.  Turn the
page...unnecessary.  Turn the page, turn the page......Finally!
Sometimes though, he will offer up an image or a sentence so
laughably bad one either bursts out laughing, or else stops reading
and makes the appropriate groaning sound.

example:  "Her homesickness was so strong it was almost sickening."

Do you think he does that on purpose?

As for Thinner, it is standard King (err, um...I mean Backman).  If
you like his work, you'll like Thinner.  There were a few amusing
lines like

"This is starting to sound like a Steven King novel."

The story essentially doesn't work for a number of reasons (not
unusual for a King novel), and some stuff is so cheap I was again
tempted to think it was very dry humor.

                       *** SLIGHT SPOILER ***

Like the way he made such a big deal over what the old gypsy said,
only he obviously couldn't think of any appropriate or striking word
to describe the other people's afflictions.  So, instead of just
ignoring it (second best to actually coming up with something) he
added things like (not exact quote)

"What did he say to you?"
"I don't know.  It was too noisy".

Come on!!

  However, I still think you could do worse than spending an evening
reading it.  There are a few genres where one (or at least I) tend
to forgive a lot.  First and foremost I think is science fiction.
Wooden dialogue, implausible plotting, even badly drawn characters
can often be forgiven if a wonderfully drawn alternate universe is
described, or some bizarre paradox is dealt with.  Next I think is
Theater of the Absurd, where one is never sure if the play (or
whatever) is doing it's futility and meaninglessness bit on itself.
I'd happily trade all of the problems with Albee's THE ZOO STORY for
that one monologue about coming to terms with things (Haunting.
Gave me goose bumps.  No great literature since Milton?  HA!!).
Third isn't a genre at all.  It's simply King.  I'll take the
wordiness (although I'm not at all happy about it!) for the scenes
and suspense he does so well.

Someone once told me: Condense, condense, condense.  When you have
it down as tightly worded as possible, then go back and cross out
every other word.

Advice I'm obviously not following here,

Bob Sheleg

------------------------------

From: hwcs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Miller)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 11 Nov 85 11:35:25 GMT

[Replying to the question "Has anyone written a mono-sex society
story set on earth?"]

"Consider Her Ways" by John Wyndham describes a society without men,
only about two or three generations in the future.  Most women are
non-breeders; a few are specialised "Mothers".  (The title is a
biblical reference: "Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her
ways").

In the UK, the story is in "Consider Her Ways and Other Stories",
published by Penguin Books.  I have no idea about publication
details elsewhere.

The story also contains elements of time-paradox and of Greek
tragedy.  It is well worth reading, though no masterpiece (in my
opinion).

Chris Miller, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh
...!ukc!hwcs!chris   chris@hwcs.uucp    chris@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 14 Nov 85 17:22:17 GMT

> A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again --
> based on a society of all males.  They were humans; their
> ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them
> without women on some previously uninhabited planet.  The
> survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used
> for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to
> themselves.  The society had become primitive, and no longer
> understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and
> utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up.  A
> pretty interesting story was placed in this society.  Does this
> sound familiar to anyone?

This sounds like an episode of 'The Starlost.'  I think it was an
Ellison, but I camn't be too sure.  From what I remember, Garth, XX
and ZZ (two names I don't remember), travel to a dome where such a
society exists.  I believe that it had become quite Rome-like.  When
the female of the trio appeared, she was treated as a goddess.  I
can't remember what happened in the end, but I do recall Garth the
the local leader fighting over the woman.

                                   Jonathan D. Trudel
                             arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu
                        uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: excreta title request answered

>From: ukc!msp@caip.rutgers.edu (M.S.Parsons)
>I think it was by Brian Aldiss.... The aliens in
>the story bathed in their excrement....

It is the novel _The_Dark_Light-Years_ and it is indeed by Aldiss.
Weird, even for him, and not one of his better works.  Your time
would be better spent by reading something else (:-)

                          marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung)
Subject: Re: Robotech
Date: 13 Nov 85 17:10:58 GMT

> Some questions I have:
>       1. Is it new

   Not really. Robotech was the product of an American company;
Harmony Gold; marketing 3 Japanese Animation shows called: Super
Dimensional Fortess Macross, The Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber
Mospeada. All of these shows were produced in 1983-4 by Tasinoko
Films.  The only link that Harmony Gold binds these stories
together, is something called "protoculture". Macross was the only
show to mention this, and its definition can be foound in any
dictionary/sociology book.

>       2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I
>          get it?)

   Yes it does come in Comic Book form. It is put out by a comic
company called Comico. There is also the first three episodes out on
commercial tape called Macross by Harmony Gold.

>       3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it
>          besides me?

   If I didn't watch it, how would I know about it. Anyways, I was
watching the original (and better at most times) animation a long
time before Harmony Gold started to release their version. I'm not
knocking Harmony Gold or anything, but they could use a little less
narration, an more of the original plotline. If you ever heard of
the CF/O or any of the Animation Fanclubs through-out the US and
beyond, get in touch with them, there's a bigger fan-following world
out there than you can imagine.

>       A lonely Micronian & Centratti fan....(sp may be wrong)

   Oh, It's Zentradi by the way.

Kenneth Fung
UUCP : {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!sunybcs!daemen!fung

------------------------------

From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung)
Subject: Re: Captain Harlock
Date: 13 Nov 85 17:27:23 GMT

> If you have never seen Captain Harlock or seens from it, and you
> have watched Macross, Sothern Cross, and Mospeoda (i.e. Robotech),
> be warned Captain Harlock is done in a different animation style
> from Robotech.  who brought you Robotech." They thought that meant
> the same animators, but when they saw different, they didn't like
> it. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to see too many
> Harlocks, so I don't know how well Harmony Gold combined the two
> series. Hopefully they've done a good job.
>                                        Sean "Yoda" Rouse

The first Robotech series (Macross, Southerrn Cross, Mospeada) was
released by Tatsinoko Films in 1983-4. Captain Harlock was done in
the mid-1970 by Reiji Matsamoto, the same person who did Space
Cruiser Yamato in 1976. [Yamato is over a decade old in the running.
Only the first two seasons, and the third is ready for release, were
redubbed into english for the US.] Queen Millenia was done in 1981-2
again by Reiji Matsamoto. Matsamoto has no obvious ties with the
Tatsinoko Studios. The reason for the animation difference is time.
In its time, Harlock was, and still is big, because of its
story-line. It didn't have the modern state-of-the-art animation
like Tatsinoko has now. All in all each show is done differently,
and you should keep that in mind.

Kenneth Fung
UUCP : {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!sunybcs!daemen!fung

------------------------------

Date: Thu 14 Nov 85 10:46:10-PST
From: Rich Zellich <ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: SF Cons List updated

SRI-NIC file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been significantly updated and is
available for FTP.  SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS"
Login within FTP, using any password.  CONS.TXT is currently 1278
lines/63,320 characters.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

From: wucec2!sg2788@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Greenland)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 14 Nov 85 16:36:29 GMT

kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell) writes:
>it is NOT instinctive to fear or be disgusted at bodily
>excretions--primitive man (and children today, for that matter)
>were fascinated by their excreta, and such substances even formed a
>part of their "magic"--which, ultimately, is what brought on a
>patina of the forbidden about the substances.

I don't think that instincts really have much at all to do with one
person's (or perhaps more accurately, one culture's) disgust with
certain substances.  A much better explanation of attitudes towards
such items comes from the works of Mary Douglas, a cultural
anthropologist (at Berkley, I believe) who argues that our feelings
about the "unclean" stem from the fact that it is out of place.
Various body fluids belong in the body and disturb a basic and
hidden need for order when they are outside of their proper place.
The theory becomes
        very interesting and very useful when Douglas applies it to
more perplexing cultural problems--like dietary taboos. She explains
the prohibition on eating certain animals which appears in many
cultures by arguing that the prohibiting culture views the
black-listed animal as being, in some way, out of place.  Animals
without gills and fins should not live in water.  Those that live on
land should be adapted to walking etc. etc.
      The use of "unclean" substances in magic and ritual suggests
all sorts of interesting ideas about what it going on in the
practicing culture.  Sounds like an excellent Masters project to me.
Are there any Anthropologists out there, or is everybody an
engineer?

Steve Middlebrook
Thanks to Mr. Greenland for the use of his account.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 Nov 85 0902-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #441
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Nov 85 0902-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #441
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 441

Today's Topics:

    Books - Heinlein & Feminist SF/Fantasy & Mono Sex Societies,
    Magazines - The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction
    Television - Robotech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction
Date: 14 Nov 85 14:54:59 GMT

gail@calmasd.UUCP (Gail B. Hanrahan) writes:
>How can anyone read _Podkayne of Mars_ and then say that Heinlein's
>juveniles deal honestly with women?

Well, he at least dealt honestly with teenaged female protagonists
in juvenile fiction.  He was writing a blend of two genres that had
not been mixed often before.  And keep in mind that Heinlein had
already been writing and selling (under a pseudonym) teenager
fiction in magazines like *Seventeen*, with female protagonists and
aimed at a female audience, -- and I believe in magazines edited by
women -- so *someone at the time* thought he was dealing honestly
with female characters.

This was 1962 for ghods's sakes.  If it doesn't fit well with our
preconceptions now, does that mean it was *wrong* for that time, or
does it mean we have changed?  (Pop quiz: which do you think *I*
think?)

In any case, I don't think the image of Podkayne (who I was madly in
love with when I was 12 -- would have been on the first ship to Mars
to propose if I could have found the ticket office) was any more
artificial than the male protagonists.  Like what-his-name in
*Farmer in the Sky* -- you know, the Eagle Scout, Matt/Mark
something.... -- who gets invited by the neighbor's beautiful
red-headed daughter to go over to the farm he's building for the
afternoon, all alone.  When I was 17, I would have accepted
instantly, hoping desperately that she meant what my fevered
imagination had just caused to flash before my eyes.  But this tonto
wants to invite her baby sister along too, as a chaperone, no doubt.

Of course, if it had gone the way *I* wanted it to go, the book
would not have been in my junior high's library....

>The juveniles consistently show female characters in traditionally
>feminine roles, hiding their intelligence, and even using sex to
>get what they want from men.

Gail, I'll tell you a little secret: when I was that age, in 1970,
most girls my age were acting in traditionally feminine roles and
using sex to get what they want from boys.  If my observations of my
intro-to-computers course are correct, there is a lot of it going
around today.  You may not like it -- I certainly don't and didn't
-- but it seems a fair observation.

>The only exception to this is the female character (Betty?) in _The
>Star Beast_, and *she* was portrayed as being bossy (note the
>negative connotation!).

1962 again, or something like that.  Hell, RAH is only about 7 years
younger than my *grandfather.* When he was starting to write, he was
praised in many places for his strong female characters.  (Read
Damon Knight's introduction to *The Past Through Tomorrow.* And read
far enough to find the part where DK feels it necessary to explain
that these characters are *so* based in reality.)

But the world has changed since 1962 -- and the texts of the books
have not.  We can't be surprized if they don't fit our
preconceptions now.  If RAH had been writing juveniles in 1962 that
fit our concepts now (assuming that he would have written books at
any time that fit our concepts, which is another question) then they
wouldn't have sold.

Let me say that again: they would not have sold.  Not to anybody,
because no publisher would have bought them, so no-one would have
the chance to say "Gee, Ward, I'm worried about the Beaver -- he's
reading this trash with women flying starships."

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Feminist sf/fantasy
Date: 15 Nov 85 05:24:07 GMT

Would the originator of this subject please stand up? I want to
thank you.  Not only was the discussion interesting, but I've been
turned on to a whole new (for me) literary genre. Following some
suggestions in reply to your posting, I've read "Northern Girl" by
Elizabeth Lynn, "Warrior Woman" by Marion Zimmer Bradley, and am
currently reading "Picnic On Paradise" by Joanna Russ. All three are
delightful. Would it be possible for you to summarize to the net, or
to me by e-mail the replies to your posting? Thanks.

Hank Buurman    Tektronix Inc.   ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Nov 85 20:59 CST
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: monosex societies

For completeness sake, also note the short story, "Final Encounter",
by Harry Harrison.  Reference is made to a society known as the Men.
There is passing mention made to an ectogenesis process using the
germ plasm of two male cells.  I have this story in the hardback
GALACTIC EMPIRES Volume II, edited by Brian W.  Aldiss, St.
Martin's Press 1976.

------------------------------

From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
Subject: Review of 36th Anniversary Issue of F&SF
Date: 15 Nov 85 22:50:33 GMT

            THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION
                 36th Anniversary Issue (Oct. 1985)
                  magazine review by Davis Tucker

I have always liked this magazine, more than its compatriots,
because it seemed to be more humanistic, more experimental, and to
have a much higher portion of quality, all of which are subjective
judgements. But lately, in he past few years, it has seemed to slip
from its pinnacle and deteriorated into something barely
recognizable as the F&SF we all knew and some of us loved. Probably
one of the saddest moments in life is when you realize that your dog
must be put out of its misery, and it is difficult to shake the
feeling that F&SF is like a blind, incontinent old coon hound who is
hanging on in pain, waiting for deliverance. This 36th Anniversary
Issue reinforces that feeling.

The cover is a lurid adolescent fantasy, the kind that makes you
embarrassed to put it on the counter. While those of us who have been
reading science fiction for years have grown inured to this type of
packaging, it never ceases to amaze me. This month's cover consists
of a mermaid-esque woman with blue skin, naked, with Barbie-doll
breasts, red eyes, and seaweed hair.  Along with a few skulls lying
beside her, and the clenched fist of a dying man. Give me a "Heavy
Metal" cover any day - even though they're both cheesecake, at least
the "Heavy Metal" ones are well-drawn. F&SF covers are routinely
bad, even by comparison with its competition, and this is no
exception.  Why am I not surprised?

The first story is a novella by James Tiptree, Jr., "The Only Neat
Thing To Do", which is essentially a straightforward juvenile space
opera piece. The only distinction between this and Tom Swift is that
the protagonist is female (though still 14 years old), and the story
is told in the present tense. Other than that, the protagonist,
Coati Cass, has her own spaceship, a cheerful adolescent demeanor,
and a brain parasite she picks up on the way to rescue some lost
spacemen, a parasite that is friendly, helpful, and symbiotic, and
also juvenile herself. Things don't end well for the two, but they
get to talk a lot along the way, and Coati has the wonderful idea
that if Syllobene's people can do for all human bodies what
Syllobene can (clear dead tissue, etc, interact at the atomic and
molecular level), they could make a lot of money and humans would be
happier.

On the whole, pretty humdrum stuff, not particularly well-written,
not particularly bad, your straight space adventure story, with one
'80s kind of twist. Not a remarkable story in any way, and had
anyone besides such a master experimentalist as Tiptree been the
author, I doubt I would have finished it. What is remarkable is that
such a mediocre story by such a stellar writer in such a generally
good magazine is even there in the first place. Which is a common
theme which runs through this issue.

Next is the standard book review column by Algis Budrys. I and many
others consider him to be one of the best, if unprolific science
fiction writers of his day. His review columns are always good,
sometimes great. This one is not exceptional, but it isn't bad.  His
mention of Richard McKenna (author of "Casey Agonistes") and the
re-review of McKenna's masterpiece "The Sand Pebbles", ends with an
exhortation for science fiction readers to "read one of our own",
which I think is overstating McKenna's relationship with science
fiction. As soon as he could get paid decent rates, he quit writing
science fiction.  There is also a very good review of the new
Christopher Priest novel, "The Glamour", which explores some of the
reasons why British science fiction is different than American.

Next is yet another forgettable piece by a well-known author, Ron
Goulart, dealing with a silly haunting of a movie star by the ghost
of the Sylvia- Plath-like writer the movie is about. Not particularly
funny, which is usually Goulart's saving grace, not particularly
madcap, and not particularly science fiction or fantasy. Goulart
also makes several serious mistakes in the character of the actress,
whose sole adjectives are "dumb", "dippy", and "dopey", when he has
her say she's in a "profound stupor". Other laziness is present.

Harlan Ellison's movie column, also standard, is typical of him.
Ellison must have been a blind epileptic in a previous life, or a
Mexican hood, the way he can work himself up into a frenzied lather
in such a short time over so little. His target is "Rambo" and
various other summer exploitation fare, such an easy target that
even a ten-year-old could do this review. And may well have -
Ellison is growing increasingly unable to tone himself down for even
a moment, and this histrionic screaming deafens the reader into
ignoring some very real criticisms he has. I notice he still makes a
typographical big deal out of being Jewish, putting "schlep" in
italics, and such. His points about "Rambo" have been made before,
better, and shorter. It's a shame, because in the past, Ellison has
proved to be a very good movie reviewer at times.

Despite his interminable "Berserker" regurgitations, Fred Saberhagen
can write well, and has. Even if such novels as "The Veils Of
Azlaroc" and "Empire Of The East" had flaws, they were certainly not
so major as to be debilitating to a generally good work. Saberhagen
isn't a hack, by any means, the "Berserker" evidence to the contrary
notwithstanding. But his story "As Duly Authorized" is pure and
unadulterated hack work. The narrative point of view is interesting
(I'm being charitable), but the story, the characters, and the
ending evince a shoddy contempt toward his readers. As short as it
is, "As Duly Authorized" packs in more laziness, more
inconsideration, more stupidity than I have read in a long time. He
somehow links punctuational evolution with a kid who is supposed to
be a homo superior who can extrude plastic microfilm out of a crease
in his forehead. How daring.

John Brunner, probably one of the more relevant science fiction
writers of the '70s, with such novels as "Stand On Zanzibar",
"Shockwave Rider", and "The Sheep Look Up", has a bad case of
word-processor infatuation, and unfortunately inflicts it upon us
here. Utter and complete silliness, shameful technocombobulation,
and far too gee-whiz for anyone older than the age of twelve. I
forgot what it's called - some dialogue via network with the alleged
ghost of O. Henry, may he haunt Brunner for a week or two until he
snaps out of it and starts writing something real instead of this
childish dreck. Grrrr.  I can't but surmise that one of you out
there has given Brunner a Commodore 64, a 300-baud modem, and a
Compuserve account, and is having a nice chuckle watching a good
author make an utter nincompoop out of himself. For shame.

My review of the Asimov column has already been written. As an
addendum, the article itself on the history of the discovery of
enzymes, yeast, etc., is well-written, informative, and
to-the-point. It's a shame his fiction is none of those. It's also a
shame he gets paid what he probably does for affectionate parental
babbling, when so many good writers don't even get published. He
needs a strong, willful editor to discipline him - one gets the
distinct feeling of reading the autobiographical doodlings of a
spoiled child who could use a good spanking.

I think the world of Orson Scott Card. He is one of the few shining
lights in modern science fiction, one of the few trying to write
science fiction as literature. His story "The Fringe" is an
unmitigated failure. Its protagonist is a hopelessly crippled man
who designed some means of reclaiming land in a post- holocaust
America. He is teaching in a small town which he and others suspect
is a center of black market activity, for some poorly-explained
reasons. For plot advancement, he uses chance and luck of the
Rin-Tin-Tin variety, saved at the last minute. One expects Lassie to
make a cameo appearance. Probably even more disappointing for a Card
afficionado is that the writing is not very exceptional, as it
normally is. The moral of the story is ridiculously simple,
reminding one of "Leave It To Beaver". The level of
characterization, even of his protagonist and antagonist, is
shallow, another thing which is a sad surprise, and the description
is almost non-existent. I wonder how long this one sat in the file
cabinet, and I hope it paid a lot of bills. Stories like this will
seriously affect his reputation. Yet another good writer with a bad
story.

Somewhere in the middle of all this is a Marion Zimmer Bradley
story, rather long, called "Seawrack". I think so little of her work
and this particular story that rather than give vent to my real
opinions about her inability to write her way out of a paper bag,
I'll leave bad enough alone. And believe me, this story is bad
enough to be left alone for a long, long time.

There is one story by Charles L. Grant that makes this issue not a
total waste of time, called "The Children, They Laugh So Sweetly".
It is a haunting, bitter, and very well-written tale, the kind of
short story that does more than lay a certain situation before the
reader and proceed directly to the conclusion. Interestingly enough,
Grant is the one author in this issue who isn't a "name" of one kind
or another. Can any conclusion be drawn from this? I'm sure many
can, but ultimately it makes little difference - except for Grant's
story about a failed, unemployed teacher being haunted by the cruel
laughter of children, this issue has given no one a reason to buy
it, or to read it. Budrys' column aside, there's little wheat and
too much chaff.  When the mighty have fallen, they take a long time
doing it. Watching the death throes of any creature is not a pretty
sight, and unless one takes a certain perverse pleasure at the sight
of a once-great magazine flopping around on the deck of science
fiction like a parasite-ridden gamefish, this 36th Anniversary Issue
of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction has no attraction to
anyone who likes science fiction.

------------------------------

From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung)
Subject: Re: Re: Robotech
Date: 14 Nov 85 17:53:10 GMT

>has its advantages :-) ), Southern Cross, and Orguss.  It has been

You mean Mospeada. Super-Dimensional Century Orguss was done by (I
think) Nippon Sunrise. The only connection between Orguss and
Macross is that Orguss was done by two of the three original
artists.  Incidentally, Orguss 2, a professional tape done by the
original crew, was to premiere sometime this month.

>on the shelves; 'Robotech - The Macross Saga', 'Robotech Masters'
>and 'Robotech - The New Age (?)'.

Actually, the third comic is: Robotech- The New Generation

Kenneth Fung
UUCP : {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!sunybcs!daemen!fung

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 Nov 85 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #442
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Nov 85 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #442
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 442

Today's Topics:

          Books - Bradley & Hubbard & Square Dance in SF,
          Television - Amazing Stories & Star Trek &
                  Blake's 7 & The New Twilight Zone &
                  The Death of Dr. Who
          Miscellaneous - Immortality vs Love

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 85 20:46:48 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Jesse Thorpe's Feminist Authors List

On it, Marion Zimmer Bradley is marked only as "women in
non-traditional roles or exploration of roles", rather than "radical
feminism".  This is interesting, because MZB is about as wild-eyed a
radical feminist as I would ever hope to read.  In fact, I find much
of her stuff impossible to read, due to her spouting platitudes.  I
find myself saying, "Yes, Marion, women are as good/strong/capable/
[your favourite adjective here] as men, I'm not arguing with you,
I'm a woman too, I know this already, will you shut up and tell the
story!?" just before I fling the book across the room in
exasperation.

I don't mind an author inserting her/his values into a work --
indeed, this is somewhat inevitable.  However, I can't stand the
kind of soapbox sermonising that holds up the narrative.

MZB fans flame to me personally, please, and I'll be happy to take
her apart even further, but that's all I have to say regarding her
feminist standpoint...

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: BATTLEFIELD EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard
Date: 15 Nov 85 15:25:27 GMT

In case you've wondered where I've been the last couple of weeks,
I've been plodding through BATTLEFIELD EARTH, all 1066 pages
(paperback edition).  The book's been around a few years and was a
bestseller, but I was mainly familiar with the author through his
scientology cult and thought the book would contain lots of
preaching. One can't tell what the book's about from reading the
jacket or the inside cover: the publishers chose to put brief
reviews there. I don't get particularly interested in reading a book
when all I can tell about it comes from review highlights from such
luminaries as the "Richmond Times-Dispatch" and the "Atlanta
Journal-Constitution".

Be that as it may, I got the book at a second-hand bookstore, so it
wasn't that terrible an investment.

The book begins with a preface by the author, explaining how he got
into writing SF in the Golden Age, and why he wrote this book in
particular. He explains what he means by pure science fiction, and
then states that that's what the reader has in his hands.

The action takes place on Earth in the year 3000. Around 2000 Earth
was conquered by the Psychlos, gorilla-like beings who dominate the
known universe due to their monopoly on teleportation equipment. By
3000, there aren't many humans left, but among the remaining ones is
Jonnie Goodboy Tyler, a frontiersman, who leaves his small
settlement in the Colorado hills and is captured by Terl, security
chief of the Psychlo mining camps on earth.  The bulk of the story
has to do with Jonnie's battle for personal freedom and then for the
freedom of his planet.

One of the capsule reviews in the back is by A. E. Van Vogt, who
says there's "great pulp music in every line". He's right. The book
reminds me a lot of "Doc" Smith's writing, but the material is more
polished here. Like many stories from the Golden Age, there's a lot
of action, a lot of science, and little or no romance. Women play
very minor roles here. There's not a great deal of time spent on
characterization either -- more so than most Golden Age books, but
less than many current ones.

Overall I give the book 3.5 stars (very, very good). In many places
it ran 4 stars (excellent, my highest rating) for long stretches,
but I rate Julian May's saga of the Pliocene exile as being better
overall.

If you haven't read this book, I suggest that you read it in spurts,
with a pause (a week or more) between major sections. And I would
divide the book into three parts: beginning, capture, and escape;
Terl strikes back; and the battle for Earth.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: reed!todd@caip.rutgers.edu (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Pointer Request: Square Dance in SF
Date: 17 Nov 85 09:50:07 GMT

> has anyone ever seen references to Square Dance in SF? I remember
> two very short ones, both of RAH: First one in THE ROLLING STONES
> (sister Meade goes to a dance), and the other one in Lazarus
> Long's memoirs, TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE (in the ``western part''
> where LL founded a settlement on an un- developed planet).

And a third RAH : Square Dance is one of the chief forms of
entertainment in TUNNEL IN THE SKY.

Todd

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!preece@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - The Mission - Alt
Date: 15 Nov 85 16:52:00 GMT

> How about landing the plane upside down!  This puts everyone else's
> life in danger, but that's the risk the crew decides to take.
> Then the end can have the crew survive or die as tv sees fit.

I wasn't really crazy about the ending, either, but I would have
been disappointed in any BELIEVABLE ending.  That's the whole point
of the show, isn't it?  It isn't called "True stories of World War
II," or "Aviation stories."

scott preece
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!!
Date: 18 Nov 85 03:32:07 GMT

> Your cup runneth over.  Niven (The Slaver Wepaon << good) and
> Gerrold (More Tribbles, More Troubles << awful; Bem << brilliant)
> both did animated Star Trek episodes.  But not Sturgeon or
> Ellison.

Oops...you is right. My apologies...

> The series suffers from a second major problem: retreads.  Far too
> many episodes are just mediocre sequels or inferior rehashings of
> live episodes.  The aforementioned Tribbles is perhaps the worst
> offender, but there's an awful sequel to Shore Leave, a version of
> "Who Mourns for Adonais" with an American Indian God, a version of
> "Menagerie" with elephant-like captors, and yet another story
> about a cloud creature, not to mention another Harry Mudd story.

Hmm...well...I'm not sure, More Tribbles, More Troubles is a sequel,
but I don't know if I'd call it a retread. (The sequel to Shore
Leave I liked quite a bit...) The rest is quite true...

> Some examples of the first problem occur to me: the crew shrinks
> (Terratin incidnet), the crew gets old (Loreli Signal), the crew
> turns blue (Albatross), Kirk and Spock turn into Creatures from
> the Black Lagoon (The Ambergris Element) ...
>
> Oh, and more: the crew ages backwards, the gravity goes off ...
> anything that would be fun to draw, regardless of whether it made
> any sense at all.

Well, I would consider this a plus, and more or less interpret it
the opposite way you did. The animation allowed the authors to write
about anything at all, and not worry about "budget constraints."

(Incidently, I don't remember Albatross...except, of course, from
Monty Python...)
                           Rob DeMillo
                           Madison Academic Computer Center
                           ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

Date: Mon 18 Nov 85 07:54:34-MST
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA-CAD.ARPA>
Subject: Blake's 7

  Some months back someone requested a list of where Blake's 7 would
be shown.  It took a while, but my friend finally got a reply from
Lionheart as to exactly where Blake's 7 will be shown.  Most of the
stations are the local PBS stations.  A couple of stations are known
to be commercial stations, however.  Here is the list of where
Blake's 7 can be expected to appear. Exact start dates are unknown,
except in a few cases where they have already started to broadcast
Blake's 7 episodes.

Morgantown, West Virginia
Witchita, Kansas
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Buffalo, NY
Albany, NY
Syracuse, NY
Hartford, Connecticut
Rhode Island                    (already started)
Houston, Texas                  (already started)
Jackson, Mississippi
Baton Rouge, Louisiana          (already started)
Denver, Colorado
San Jose, California
Bellingham, Washington          (commercial station)
Santa Fe, New Mexico            (commercial station; starts Jan '86)
Chicago, Illinois               (expected to start in spring of '86)

Well, that's the complete list as of this moment.

                Michi Wada

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 85 12:14 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: New TWZ: Paladin Of The Last Hour
Cc: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA

I thought "The Paladin of the Last Hour" was an original script by
Ellison, not based on a short story.  I heard him read it on Hour 25
about a year ago.  He had wanted to see Burgess Meredith, an old TZ
veteran, play Gaspar, and I was disappointed to see Danny Kaye in
that role.

Lisa

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: The Death of Doctor Who
Date: 15 Nov 85 16:28:25 GMT

Here are some interesting facts I learned this summer, when I was in
England.

* The next season will only be 14 episodes- for certain.  This was
discovered in a telegram written to Lionheart.  The BBC got the
address wrong and sent it to the next adress on the list: Ron Katz.
This short season will be Fall '86 and will be a trial for Doctor
Who.  For Doctor Who to survive, it will have to be the best season
ever.  Think about it.  Season 18 started out with lousy ratings and
won a new audience...  but only after 3 or 4 months.  Season 23
won't have that long.

* Attack of the Cybermen started out with 9 million, yes.  This is
only natural for a new Doctor and a returning monster, publicised by
the release of Revenge of the Cybermen on videotape.  But, unlike
season 19, which boasted an average of 10 million viewers, Season 22
dropped immediately to 7 million for Vengeance on Varos 1, (I blame
Attack, which was simply Eric Saward's worst script.) By the Two
Doctors, ratings had dropped to 6 million.

* The radio show consisted of one 6 parter called "Slipback."  This
had 10 minute episodes and featured the Doctor, Peri, and the late
Valentine Dyall in his last role as Captain Slarn, a lascivious old
man who wants to capture Peri for "his fantasies."  It was very
entertaining, having a faster pace than anything in the 22nd Season,
and very Douglas Adams-ish.  Oh yes, it was written by Eric Saward.
Music, if I judge rightly, was scarce and done by Roger Limb, who
was not credited.

* Panopticon VI was terrific.  (More later.)

* The Cancelled season, which would have been 23, goes like this:
        Celestial Toymaker story
        by Graham Williams.
   This would have been set in Blackpool (hence the ending line of
Revelation of the Daleks) and, according to Graham, would have
featured the origin of the Toymaker.
        Rani story
        by Pip & Jane Baker
   This is the only story which might go ahead.  It was commissioned
after the cancellation, so perhaps it doesn't belong in this season.
All I know is that it will be a 4 parter and does not feature the
Master.
        Sil story
        by Philip Martin.
   Sil and the Ice Warriors meet on a planet of women.  The men are
all but wiped out.  (Some are kept underground.)  Meanwhile,
somewhere else in the system, there's a planet of men trying to
reach the women.
        Auton story
        by Robert Holmes
   This was set to take place in Singapore (JNT wanted a vacation
there) and feature the Autons.  JNT wanted the Master as well, but
Holmes declined.  He likes to make his own villains.
        Judgement of the Daleks
        by Eric Saward
   This is pure speculation, unlike the others.  Some bright spark
has realised that the Dalek titles run by the Bible (i.e., Genesis,
Destiny (Man's worldly life), Resurrection (of Christ), Revelation
(of John of Patmos), and Judgement (of Davros, most likely)

* The real Season 23 will be 14 episodes, (possibly to match the
number as well as the budget of Tripods.  If this is the case, look
for lots of effects, and possibly shallow plot) and will feature:
   An Umbrella theme of a great threat to Gallifrey which will be
set up and resolved by Robert Holmes, in a beginning four parter,
and an ending two parter.  The basic format will be 4,4,4,2.  The
remaining two adventures will be written by Philip Martin and one
other writer.  This season will be very well written, if I am to
believe Mr. Martin, as if the future of Doctor Who depends upon it,
which it does.  It will feature NO returning monsters (Thank
goodness!)

I'm going to post my reviews of Season 22 next, if anybody cares for
my opinion.  Most of my reviews will be negative, and I'll try to be
less spoiler than the Monthly is.

Charles Kupperman

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Immortality vs Love
Date: 14 Nov 85 17:11:30 GMT

ramsay@argon.UUCP (R.Ramsay) writes:
>We've had the articles about immortality & sex being mutually
>exclusive, now what about immortality and love? I don't mean
>society wise, but - well, if you were made immortal, eternal youth,
>the whole bit, would you be able to fall in love? Would you let
>yourself fall in love? Would you no longer feel it a workable
>proposition? Why does nobody (nobody I know) feel they are equal to
>immortality? Is it good old Hubris, or actually unworkable? I feel
>very strongly about this, having written a novel on the effects of
>an individual's immortality. I eventually came to (among other
>things) the conclusion that you had to be some kind of psychopath
>to survive an immortal lifetime, and thus the sort of person that
>*has* to dominate. One last thought. My immortal had the power to
>'bestow' immortality. Who gets to choose?

There are a number of immortal characters in SF (including the guy
in Life, the Universe, and Everything who has decided to pass
eternity by insulting everybody in the universe in alphabetical
order), but perhaps the most common class of immortals are the
vampires.  Granted, vampires are not quite immortal, but they do not
age and they're damned hard to kill, so I think they fit.

Oddly enough, vampires in SF very often are the reverse of the
character you describe.  They start off as murderous monsters, but
over the years, they achieve a level of wisdom and "humanity".  The
classic example of such a vampire is Dracula in Fred Saberhagen's
books (Thorn, An Old Friend of the Family, The Holmes-Dracula File,
and the Dracula Tapes).  The man started out as Vlad the Impaler,
but by the mid-sixties, his sadism is gone.  He falls in love with
mortal women, even though the love is tragic (because she will grow
old, but he won't).  He protects the weak, and fights for justice
(vigilante-style, of course, but that's deeply imbedded in the whole
genre, not to mention most of literature).

The same kind of transformation was beginning to happen in Marvel's
Tomb of Dracula comic books in the mid-70's (before the series was
cancelled).  The Count was still an aristocrat who thought of humans
as peasant cattle, but he had acquired a wife and child whom he
loved and protected.  In time, perhaps, he would have evolved
further.

I could go on with examples, since I have read many modern SF pieces
about vampires, but I don't think it's necessary.  Immortality may
corrupt some humans, but it is a civilizing influence on vampires.
Why the difference?  Because personality reverses make a better
story.  There ARE immortals who don't change (K.E.Wagner's Kane is
an example), but what's the point of a story where things are more
the less the same at the end as the beginning?  (This tells you what
I think of the Kane books.)  For a good piece of literature, time
must have some kind of effect, and that means the immortal must get
better or worse.  At any rate, his or her situation must change
somehow.
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Nov 85 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #443
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Nov 85 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #443
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 20 Nov 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 443

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brin & DeCamp & Hodgell &
                         Story Requests Answered (2 msgs) &
                         Thieve's World (2 msgs) & Starquake,
                 Magazines - Review of 1985 Short SF,
                 Miscellaneous - Immortality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Note for Brin fansD
Date: 18 Nov 85 19:48:00 GMT

I have just finished fondling my newly received trade (hardcopy)
edition of David Brin's STARTIDE RISING, published by Phantasia
Press.  The cover is disappointing to me; it's well executed but it
looks like a battle scene from Star Trek VI -- The Nebula Strikes
Back.

There is a half-interesting, half-embarassing foreword by Edward
Bryant and an interesting frontispiece by David Cherry.  Yet,
despite my reservations about the cover art, I LIKE this book.  Many
of you know from my previous postings that I am a fan of this book,
and to those of you who see books as having some life and character
of their own, verily I say, this book deserved the hardcover
edition.  Brin fans, take a look for yourselves.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: hpcnof!lrb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 13 Nov 85 22:49:00 GMT

>>  (Gordon Letwin, who is someone else, asks:)
>>  I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which
>>  a modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's
>>  freezing to death, I think.)  He's carried across the Bifrost
>>  where they're getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with
>>  the Frost Giants.  He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic
>>  bomb...

>From: Stephen Balzac <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU>
>Sounds vaguely like the (In)Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de
>Camp, but I can't be sure.  Its been years since I read it, and I
>don't really remember the ending.

The description by G. Letwin above closely matches the plot of de
Camp's "The Incompleat Enchanter", except for the atomic bomb part.
I seem to remember that the Norse part was only one third of the
book.  The hero also visits 2 other mythological worlds.  I also
seem to remember that this novel later came out as one of two novels
bound together in a single paperback with the title "The Compleat
Enchanter", with the other novel being "The Iron Castle" Someone
please correct this if it is in error.  (de Camp had a co-author for
these novels by the name of Fletcher Pratt(?) ).

Speaking of L. Sprague de Camp, my alltime favorite SF novel by any
author is his "Lest Darkness Fall", about an archaeologist who finds
himself in Rome about 400 A.D.  He takes it upon himself to
single-handedly prevent the Dark Ages from falling.  His time is
about equally divided between meddling in politics and somewhat
successful attempts at introducing technology.  The only real
fantasy part of the book is the first 2 pages where he goes back
through time.  The rest is entirely logical and never leaves you
thinking "Oh come on now! Do you expect me to believe......".  It is
also one of the funniest books I have ever read.  Every time I read
it (10 times now?) I am greatly disappointed that it comes to an
end.  It is the kind of book that gets you spending your time
thinking up possible sequels.

Larry Bruns, HP, Colo. Networks Oper. R&D
Ft. Collins, CO

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 85 07:25:50 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: cats, sequels, confusion in God Stalk



Someone I dont remember wrote:

>>>A crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably
>>>cute talking cats.  Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's
>>>"Breed to Come".  Not recommended.
>>
>>WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?  I *never* in the 5 times that I have read
>>the book found "cute talking cats". Nor did I think it was crying
>>for a sequel.
>From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
>Typical scene:
>   Jame wakes up.  large object on Jame's chest.  what could it be?
>It is a cat.  Jame closes eyes again and contemplates Kencyr racial
>memory of times when her claws were not so recessed.  Why is it so
>hard to breathe?  oh yeah, there is a cat on chest.
>   She was trying to dislodge the beast, who only responded with a
>loud purr, when a woman darted into the room crying "Boo, you great
>lump!"... and so on Be warned.

There was one scene where she couldn't remember what the thing on her
chest was... that was in the beginning, when she didnt know where
she was. I didn't consider the cat Boo worth noticing because it did
nothing for the plot, it was atmospheric. (visions of flying cats...
but I digress :-) Also, I dont consider writing cutely about cats to
be "cute talking cats", which is what I was objecting to. None of
the catlike beings in the book talked. And Boo wasn't cute, he was a
godawful nuisance...

>As for sequels, Hodgell has a talent for names: Perimal Darkling,
>Archiem, Cleppety, Marplet, Tai-Weir, Tai-Sondre, Tai-Tastigon, The
>Bay of Benitar..
>
>Hundreds and hundreds of names, all good and confusing.  Did I miss
>an explanation somewhere?  Maybe I should read one of the three
>Appendices now?  Will it spoil anything?  (yes.).  too bad.  By the
>end of the book everything is clear?

I like names. (maybe Im wierd.. I collect interesting names) I also
found little problem following the background and storyline. I didnt
think the appendices spoiled anything... the only thing I think it
could have spoiled was the fact that Torisen Black Lord *is* her
brother, and this I had already figured out... What does a
preponderance of names have to do with sequels? The book had many
characters, all of whom needed names; the land had many cities, all
of which needed names. I dont understand your objection.  There was
also a cast of characters listed at the front of the book, and maps
with all the names on them...

>>As for it being a rewrite of "Breed to Come", I can't say, cause I
>>have never read that particular book of Norton's.
>
>I guess you have a treat in store.  Both books are about catlike
>beings exploring strange cities in a world where Man is not as we
>know him.

I have read much of norton... I will have to see if this book is
anywhere in the combined libraries of my roomies...

/amqueue
Anne Marie Quint

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 85  9:53:19 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Name That Mega-Building

The excessively large building/city which includes nightroaming
spouse-swapping sounds like Robert Silverberg's collection/novel,
THE WORLD INSIDE.

[ Let me throw in a gratis recommendation for Silverbob's story,
"Multiples", the THE CONGLOMEROID COCKTAIL PARTY collection -- one
of those rare recent stories where his stylistic tendencies really
work well with his idea, for a mind-blowing and moving story ... ]

Other Big Building stories, while we're on the subject:

Thomas Disch, 334
Niven & Pournelle, OATH OF FEALTY
John Crowley, ENGINE SUMMER [the Little Belair warren ]

Daniel Dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Nov 85 12:34:24-EST
From: Bard Bloom <BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #438

Re: Gladly the Crosseyed Bear

[(Attempt to spoil that which cannot be further spoiled) warning]

The book is _Patterns_Of_Chaos_, by Kapp I believe.  I was looking
for trashy SF novels in the MITSFS library a week ago; and finding
_PoC_ was success beyond my wildest dreams.  The book is (with
difficulty) the worst that I've read in a long time. It uses most of
the worst cliches of space opera, and does so very badly.
Recommended as insecticide.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1985 12:58:56-EST (Tuesday)
From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA>
Subject: Thieve's World

I believe that there is only one Thieve's World novel out: "Beyond
Sanctuary" by Janet Morris.  I have it on order, but haven't gotten
it yet.  About all I know is that it is primarily about Tempus.
There are a few other books/stories out about characters (Jamie the
Red, Lythande), but not in connection to Thieve's World.

------------------------------

From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Thieve's World
Date: 20 Nov 85 01:02:23 GMT

        I read that Janet Morris has three books out all titles
beginning with the word Beyond. The one's I remember are Beyond
Sanctuary and Beyond Wizardwall.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 85 10:49 PST
From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD 
From: <WBD.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
Subject: STARQUAKE AVAILABILITY?

Is it out yet?  I tried looking in 2 book stores and one dedicated
SF-Bookstore and no one had a copy of it.  If it is out, when did it
appear?  Thanks,

Bi\\

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Review of 1985 Short SF
Date: 10 Nov 85 21:13:00 GMT

Well, all the magazines with 1985 cover dates are out.  Since short
fiction is generally overlooked on the net, I thought I'd post a
list of recommendations of what I thought was good, perhaps to be
used as a starting point for those of you who want to review the
shorter material, whether for Hugo/Nebula/Locus Poll/AnLab or if you
just want to keep up with some of what's going on in the mags.

My list, like any list of recommendations, is subjective.  Its
contents run the range from hard sf to fantasy to "literary" sf.
The only common thread is that I think it stands out from the rest
and is worth reading.  The source universe consistes of ANALOG,
ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE, FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION,
and FANTASY BOOK.  Obviously, this universe is not complete, my
frantic reading time is limited.  It does not include material from
OMNI, AMAZING, TWILIGHT ZONE, slick mainstream mags such as PLAYBOY
that sometimes publish SF, original anthologies, or the many small
publications that publish SF.

I've used two categories, Highly Recommended and Recommended, to
give the list some differentiation and I've tried to balance a
desire to keep the lists as short as possible while including
everything I judged to be of similar quality. There are also
occasional comments.

On the whole, I feel there are fewer outstanding stories than last
year, but more very, very good ones.  Competition is particularly
keen with the novellas, which stands to reason, because an editor
has to think thrice about devoting that much space in one of their
publications.  (I'm happy to note that the number of novellas in
F&SF, Analog, and Asimov's is up to 18, from last year's 15.  I
enjoy the novella format because of its balance of conciseness and
complexity.)

Abbreviations:

AN = ANALOG      AS = ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE
FS = FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION     FB = FANTASY BOOK
all listings alpha by author within category (unless I mis-order)

Novellas:

Highly Recommended

"Green Mars"                    Kim Stanley Robinson       AS  9/85
"24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai"    Roger Zelazny        AS  7/85


Recommended

"To the Storming Gulf"  Gregory Benford                 FS  4/85
"When Winter Ends"      Michael Kube-McDowell           FS  7/85
"Storming the Chaos"    Rudy Rucker and Bruce Sterling  AS  mid-12/85
"Sailing to Byzantium"  Robert Silverberg               AS  2/85
"Green Days in Brunei"  Bruce Sterling                  AS  10/85


Novelettes:

Highly Recommended

"The Shadow of Starlight"       Gael Baudino               FS  4/85
"Unferno"                       George Alec Effinger       AS  7/85
(author of "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything", 1985 Hugo
nominee.)

"Stone Lives"                   Paul diFillipo             FS  8/85
"Bluff"                         Eric G. Iverson            AN  2/85
    (has started publishing under real name, Harry Turtledove)

"Portraits of His Children"     George R.R. Martin         AS  11/85
"The Sport of Kings"            Edward F. Shaver           FS  11/85
    (very funny)

"All This, and Heaven, Too"     James Tiptree, Jr.     AS  mid-12/85
"When the High Lord Arrives"    Eric Vinicoff              AN  4/85
  (Excellent.)

Recommended

"Don't Get Around Much Anymore"    Ray Brown               AN  3/85
"The Fringe"                    Orson Scott Card           FS  10/85
"War of the Roses"              Karen Joy Fowler           AS  12/85
"George Washington Slept Here"  Charles Harness            AN  7/85
   (author of last year's excellent "Summer Solstice", Hugo nominee)

"Trader's Secret"               Charles Sheffield          AN  8/85
"The Running Back From Yuggoth" William R. Trotter         FB  6/85
"The Road Not Taken"            Harry Turtledove           AN  11/85
"The Dragon's Boy"              Jane Yolen                 FS  9/85

Short Stories:

Highly Recommended

"You Never Asked My Name"       Brian Aldiss               FS  11/85
"Final Performance"             Kevin J. Anderson          FS  1/85
"The Persistence of Memory"     Gael Baudino               FS  11/85
"Send No Money"                 Susan Casper and
                                  Gardner Dozois       AS  mid-12/85
  (very funny)
"The Poplar Street Study"       Karen Joy Fowler           FS  6/85
"The Monk's Tale"               Esther M. Freisner         FB  6/85
"Programmed for Destruction"    John M. Gribbin            AN  3/85
"Non-Interference"              Eric G. Iverson            AN  7/85
"Scenes from A Shadowplay"      Ian McDonald               AS  7/85
"The Basic Universe"            Jerry Oltion               AN  8/85
"Fermi and Frost"               Frederick Pohl             AS  1/85
"Siblings"                      Larry Powell               AN  4/85
"Cycles"                        Don Sakers                 AN  1/85
"Dinner in Audoghast"           Bruce Sterling             AS  5/85
  (Outstanding.)
"An Infestation of Angels"      Jane Yolen                 AS  11/85

Recommended

"Time's Rub"               Gregory Benford                 AS  4/85
"The Proud Foot of the Conqueror"  Reginald Bretnor        FS  7/85
"Snow Job"                 Gardner Dozois/Michael Swanwick AS  10/85
"Preliminary Notes on the Jang" Lisa Goldstein             AS  5/85
"The Final Assassin"            Gary Killworth             AS  1/85
"The Day We Really Lost the War"   Richard Mueller         AS  9/85

A couple of other items from the mags:

Game Review for "Paranoia" -- AS, 10/85

          "Stay alert.  Trust no one.  Keep your laser handy."

Articles from Analog:

"The Lost Dimensions of Reality"    by John Gribbin       4/85
"The Garden of Cosmological Delights"
    by G.F.R. Ellis/Tony Rothman  5/85
"Just How Dangerous is the Galaxy"  by David Brin         7/85
"In the Fullness of Time"           by John G. Cramer     10/85

Enjoy.  Comments by E-mail; let's not clog up the net.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 85 21:09:05 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Immortality
To: kcl-cs!ramsay@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

>From:kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)

>I eventually came to (among other things) the conclusion that you
>had to be some kind of psychopath to survive an immortal lifetime,
>and thus the sort of person that *has* to dominate.

  I imagine that one would live an eternal lifetime the same way as
any other - one day at a time.
  I don't see why living thousands of years would drive anyone
crazy, or why anyone would have to be crazy to want to live
thousands of years (I'm not sure which you meant).
  I wouldn't mind living for a few million years, as long I was
healthy.
  I've always thought it would be a neat practical joke, once we all
have immortality, to send someone back to the precambrian in a time
machine and strand him there, make him 'walk' back.  Has anyone
written anything like this?
                                                ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 21 Nov 85 0848-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #444
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Nov 85 0848-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #444
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Nov 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 444

Today's Topics:

              Books - Chalker & Gunn & Story Request,
              Television - Star Trek & The New Twilight Zone,
              Miscellaneous - SILiCON & How to Get Published

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 17:34 EST
From: Ken Raeburn <Raeburn@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Immortality vs Love

Has anyone read the Well of Souls series by (Chalker, was it?)?
It's about a guy named Nathan Brazil, who, according to his own
accounts, has been around longer than the universe itself, and in
fact he has to take on the responsibility of destroying the current
one and starting a new one.  The computer that runs the universe
simply will not let him die, as he is its maintainer.  He seemed to
still have the ability to love after going through a lot worse than
he would even want to have anyone else live through.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 14:39:35 PST
From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey)
Subject: Re: Story request

The person who answered the request for the witch story neglected to
mention one amusing part of that story: it was not a witches'
convention, it was a witches covention.  The best part: the program,
listing the topics of discussion and the advertisements.

The other two stories in my edition, (_The Witching Hour_, Dell,
1970) are pretty good also (on similar subjects) but I liked the
second one, "The Beautiful Brew", best -- it's about a brewery owner
whose mysterious brew-master (named Dion), has created the perfect
beer -- with one catch: the head shapes itself into a beautiful nude
woman, making the beer unsalable in the opinion of the more
conservative board members.  Everything you always wanted to know
about brewing...  If you can't find either book edition, but you
have access to back issues of _Beyond_, the covention story appeared
there as "Sine of the Magus" (a much better title!) in the May 1954
issue.

Leigh Ann

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 85 09:57:16 EST (Wednesday)
Subject: Help! I need to know!!
From: Mike James X27798 <MJames.Wbst@Xerox.ARPA>

I am trying to remember a book that I read one summer and can think
of the name or the author. It was about an invasion into America by
the Chinese/Japanese and a group of scientists in America who used
high technology to create their own new religion and attempt an
overthrow of the invaders. All I remember is that they had found the
connection between gravity, magnetism, and electricity and used this
as the basis for their "magic" and weapons. Please Help!

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 11:00 PST
From: Dave Platt <Dave-Platt%LADC@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek on videocassette

Re Andy Thorton's question about Star Trek on videocassette... I've
seen a copy of "The Menagerie" on cassette recently... but of course
it's in the US format (VHS/NTSC).  The store I was in seemed to have
a fair collection of ST episodes available for rental, as well as
all three movies.  I didn't see the blooper compilation, but I
suspect that careful searching of some of the glossy fanzines might
turn up someone who has it.

Given that the US video format is different than that used in Europe
(and Britain too?), it might be easier all around to locate a copy
of the bloopers on 8- or 16-millimeter film, and use one of the
commercial services that can transfer films to video in whatever
format you can use.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 18:18 CST
From: Jerry Bakin <Bakin@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Paladin of the LOST Hour

To clarify Lisa Caro's message, I think what I meant to say was that
the script of Paladin...  was based on an original Harlan Ellison
short story.  From last week's Hour 25, I got the impression it has
since been published in the TZ magazine, but having never read the
magazine, I don't know if it publishes scripts or stories although I
suspect the latter.

Anyway, I too was a bit disappointed to se Danny Kaye, fine actor
that he is portraying Gaspar, his portrayal seemed a little off,
didn't have all the venom I remember Harlan giving it.

In fact, I have been disappointed at the direction of every TZ made
so far.  They all seem so one dimensional.

I would have much preferred seeing Harlan -- a fine reader to listen
to -- just sit in a chair and read the thing.  Talk about zoning TV
audiences!

Jerry.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 85 16:15:52 est
From: Steve Strassmann <straz@MEDIA-LAB.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SILiCON

Some of you who like role-playing games might be interested in
SILiCON I, a unique role-playing convention to be held in the Boston
area on March 21-23, 1986. It's brought to you by the Society for
Interactive Literature (SIL), the folk who've brought you the Rekon
games at past Boskone cons. Rekon was so successful (roughly
doubling every year), we decided to hold our own convention with 6
diverse, fun, real-time-real-space-real-weird games. A SILiCON
membership includes a character in one of the games, a
professionally run film program, ongoing costume contest, con suite,
panel discussions, and more!

Each of the six SILiCON I games is a full Rekon-style game designed
for 60-80 players, and each will run non-stop from Friday night to
Sunday afternoon. When you arrive, you'll receive a packet
describing your character, along with his/her/its possessions, a
description of a crisis or two, and a description of your
character's objectives and abilities, and (maybe) allies and
enemies. Depending on which game you choose, your character could be
from the ancient past or the far future, a minor deity in Armageddon
or a virus in a sore throat.  For the rest of the weekend, you run
around the hotel cooperating and competing with other players as you
meet them.

For more information about the games, plus a personality
questionnaire and registration form, send netmail to me or SIL.  I'm
not on SF-lovers, so if you have any fun commentary or questions
about the game, please CC it to me.

Me:                      SIL:
straz@mit-mc             almond_b%h-sc4@harvard
(or)
straz@media-lab.mit.edu

Steve Strassmann         Society for Interactive Literature
3 Ames St.               130 Morrison Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02139      Somerville, MA 02144

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: How to Get Published, One View
Date: 17 Nov 85 22:12:00 GMT

Getting published seems to be a function of four things:

1.  Knowing proper manuscript format and submission procedures.
2.  Sending your story to the right markets. (Knowing the markets.)
3.  Proper selection of story material.
4.  Good writing.

Three personal qualities also seem to help: a professional attitude,
persistence, and a capacity to absorb rejection -- really three
sides of the same coin.

Manuscript format/submission procedures.

Editors tend to be buggy about this.  The points may seem trivial to
some, but why antagonize your most important reader, the one who can
BUY your story, needlessly?

Your manuscript should be CLEAN.  Very few typos, with those that
exist corrected neatly with pen.  Do NOT use white-out; instead line
through and correct.

White paper, 8-1/2 by 11.  One side only.  Typed or printed from
word processor.  If printed, letter quality printer is usually
STRONGLY preferred.  (If you read 50 manuscripts a day, you'd be
picky about your eyesight too.)  In either event, use good black
ribbons that produce type that is easy to read.

Format can be found in THE FICTION WRITER'S MARKET, by Writer's
Digest.  Generally, 25 lines per page, left-hand margin 1-1/2 inches
from edge, 60-space line (70-space if using elite -- 12 characters
per inch -- type.)  DOUBLE SPACE your manuscript.  First line about
1-1/2 inches from top of page.

Upper-right corner of every page should have a slug line with name
and page number.  Some editor's like a key word from your story,
which is helpful if you have a common last name.  (This is to guard
against manuscripts getting inter-mixed.)  Either Brunet -- # or
Brunet/Guidelines/#.

First page should have title about half way down, centered, all
caps.  Next line is "by", next line is your name as you would want
it to appear in the magazine.  (Don't use a pseudonym unless you've
got a very good reason.)  Double double-space after name, indent,
and begin text.

Do not hyphenate at the end of a line; either run it long or run it
short.  Indicate italics by underlining, even if your word processor
*can* do it.

Upper left corner of title page, indented to five spaces of the left
margin, is a block containing your name, address and phone number.
Even with your phone number and flush with the right hand margin is
word count.  Word count is NOT the actual number of words, it's a
measure of space, i.e., 5 characters and a space.  At the format
given above, you have 250 words per page (300 with elite spacing).
Pro-rate for partial pages.  Round to the nearest hundred.  Example:
1,700 words.

Cover letters are not necessary, but most people like to write them.
Keep them short, 1-4 paragraphs.  Any previous publishing credits,
awards, or participation in well-known workshops may be mentioned.
The fact that all your friends and relatives liked your story, you
hope that the editor will like your story, Larry Niven once asked
you to pass the butter, etc., should not be.  Do not write "cute"
cover letters.  Ever.  This includes tongue-in-cheek put-downs of
yourself and your writing.

Mail your manuscript in a 10x13 envelope, even if you can save 14
cents by folding it into a #10 business envelope.  First class mail
is recommended; there is a special fourth-class manuscript rate, but
then legally you can't include a letter without paying extra, it
takes longer to deliver, and it can get squished with
umpteen-hundred parcels.  ENCLOSE A SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE
with the correct postage already attached.  This is so the editor
can return your manuscript if it is not bought.  Most editors prefer
to receive orignial manuscripts, but do keep xerox copies for your
files in case of loss.

Knowing the markets.

FICTION WRITER'S MARKET is probably the best single source.  LOCUS,
the SFWA Bulletin (available to non-members by subscription), and
THE WRITER'S MARKET are some of the other sources.

Read as many of your target publications as is possible.

Make a list of the ones that seem to be a fit with your story.
Salient points to look for include length of works published, amount
paid, and sub-genre.  Evaluate your story realistically.  Does it
have a chance for PLAYBOY or OMNI?  If not, don't waste the postage.
On the other hand, if it doesn't seem out of the question, go for
it.  Read the magazine requirements carefully, you're unlikely to
sell a sword-and-sorcery tale to ASIMOV's or a gadget-story to F&SF.
Be aware of the smaller markets such as FANTASY BOOK, PANDORA, etc.,
but use them after you've exhausted the "better" markets.

Selection of material.

Just as there are cliches of speech, there are cliches of material.
The current topic that editors are inundated with is computer game
stories, either "...and it was only a computer game, after all." or
"...and it wasn't a computer game, after all."  Deals with the
devil, Arthurian re-tellings, post-holocaust stories,
sword-and-sorcery quests, etc., must be EXCEEDINGLY well done to be
published by an unknown author.  An editor can take those same
topics from an established author because the author's name will
help sell the magazine.  Otherwise, the story isn't sufficently new
and fresh, because the editor has already seen 20 in the same week.
(Stan Schmidt had a good editorial on this subject in the 11/85
issue of ANALOG.)

To break in, it helps to have a fresh, new idea, characters, and
plot.

Good writing.

Mentioned last, because there is a fair amount of good writing out
there that falls afoul of the previous points.  Two books that are
helpful are THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE by Strunk & White, and WRITING AND
SELLING SCIENCE FICTION by The Science Fiction Writers of America.
Also get a copy of CONSTRUCTION SCIENTIFICTION AND FANTASY by George
Scithers et al.  It can be ordered from AMAZING and the advice is
good generally, not just for AMAZING.  Also, read John Gardner's THE
ART OF FICTION, particularly the chapters on common errors and
technique.

Also, read, Read, READ.  Everything.  SF and mainstream.  Mystery.
Classics.  Learn how the language is used.  Learn how things work
and why things work.

Join a writing group, whether it's a class at a local
college/university or just a bunch of writers getting together on
their own.  The criticism can be painful, especially at first, but
it's the best and fastest way to develop.  Soft, friendly criticism
is of no use to the writer (and neither is malicious destructive
criticism.)  Hard to believe, but most criticism by non-writers/
editors, even if they are heavy readers, is usually next to
worthless for finding your flaws, simply because they don't have the
critical vocabulary.  Phrases like passive voice, exposition-in-
dialogue, are uncontrolled point-of-view shift, the bread-and-butter
of manuscript critiques, as are discussions about point-of-entry,
word choice, rhythms, etc.

Revise, revise, revise, until you've done the best you think you can
do with the material at hand.  Then, send it out.

Personality points.

Persistence, professional attitude, capacity for rejection.
Occasionally a writer lucks out and starts selling right away.  That
is extremely rare.  For the SF magazines, 1/100 stories gets
published, and the fraction is much worse for new writers in the
"slush pile".  R.A. MacAvoy wrote a novel a year for 15 years before
TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON hit it.  (She also did not write short
fiction, which is statistically the best way to break in.  Bad as it
is, it's MUCH better than the outlook for mainstream writers.)

(A typical break-down on the contents of the slushpile:
     50% is illiterate.
     30% has major problems identifiable within 1-3 pages.
     15% is competently written, but nothing special about
         story.
      5% is worth a second look, a fraction of 1% will get
         published, the remainder will get positive rejection notes.)

Triumph when you get a hand-written/typed note at the bottom of a
form letter rejection.  Editor's don't waste time unless you're
close.  When you get a rejection, send your manuscript out to the
next market right away, don't stick it on the shelf until you've
exhausted every market.  (This assumes you didn't send your story
out until it was polished and you were satisfied with it the first
time.)

Keep records of where your manuscript has gone.  Keep records on
your expenses.  DISCLAIMER: I am not a CPA or tax accountant.  You
can write off your expenses on a Schedule C even if you don't make a
sale at first.  Current law only says you have to show a profit 3
years out of 5.  What you must be able to do is show the IRS that
you're pursuing writing seriously.  (A professional writer sure as
hell figures in the financial angle; otherwise, they remain amateurs
or starve.)

Gasp.  Long winded even for me.  Apologies to all concerned with
volume of net traffic.  Replies, flames, queries, etc. by E-mail
welcome.  Hmm.  It also looks as if I've blown my self-imposed
cover.  Well, I still reserve the right to criticise Asimov even if
my best isn't up to his worst.  Yes, I write, and yes, I've made a
sale with another pending, but no, I haven't got the system wired,
and I can't vouch for any of the above beyond the level of it being
what I think I know.  Once I get to the point where major SF
magazines are buying half of what I write, then maybe I'll think
about making stronger claims.  Until then, see y'all in the slush
pile.  Hi yo, wombats, away!

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Nov 85 0938-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #445
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Nov 85 0938-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #445
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 445

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Delany & Hodgell & Piper &
                    Clones & Some Comments Requested &
                    Some Reviews & Thieve's World &
                    Shaver Mysteries,
            Television - Robotech,
            Miscellaneous - Immortality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: "With a Tangled Skein" by Piers Anthony
Date: 18 Nov 85 22:02:44 GMT

The Incarnations of Immortality series started with a great deal of
promise.  "On a Pale Horse" avoided Anthony's usual level of
patronizing women and gave us a nice helping of gentle whimsy.  ("So
you're Death...I've heard so much about you.")  The second book in
the series, "Bearing an Hourglass", unfortunately succumbed to
raging Xanth disease.  Whimsy turned to cutesiness and any pretense
of suspension of disbelief went out the window.  Chronos, the
embodiment of Time, was supposedly contending for the salvation of
humanity, but he was just acting silly.

With the series tied at one good and one bad, I was happy to find
the third book in hard cover, sitting quietly on the "New Book"
shelf of our local library.  I read it eagerly, almost in one
sitting.

Folks, I have bad news...

The story concerns a woman named Niobe who eventually becomes part
of the immortal incarnation of Fate (Fate is actually three women in
one body: Clotho who spins the threads of life, Lachesis who
measures them, and Atropos who cuts them off).  Niobe happens to be
the grandmother of Luna (seen in both of the previous books).  Alas,
Niobe also happens to be the most beautiful woman of her generation,
which gives Anthony all the excuse he needs to trot out his usual
female stereotyping.  Sigh...

The book has little story to it.  The usual things happen.  We are
treated to another episode of "Let's Figure Out How to Get to
Nature's House" which is suspiciously like the traditional "Let's
Figure Out How to Get into the Good Magician's Castle" from the
Xanth series.  But this could be forgiven if the book had a
satisfactory ending.

It does not.  Niobe goes to a great deal of blatantly artificial
trouble to find an obvious answer to an uninteresting problem.  The
final chapter is so mind-bogglingly contrived that I could flame
about it at length if I weren't too polite to spoil it for possible
readers.

Recommendation: if you are curious about the story and how the
series is unfolding, GET THE BOOK OUT OF THE LIBRARY.  Do not spend
hard-earned money on this turkey.  If you have not read anything of
the series, do look at "On a Pale Horse", but leave the other two
alone.  Heaven knows what Anthony will do with the next book
"Wielding a Red Sword" about Mars.  The few glimpses we've seen of
Mars in the three published books are tantalizing, and I will remain
optimistic...
                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: ulysses!amw@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Wild)
Subject: Samuel R. Delaney
Date: 19 Nov 85 15:28:41 GMT

Summary:

        Wanted: "The Jewel Hinged Jaw"  1977
                "The American Shore"    1978

        Both by Samuel R. Delany, published by Dragon Press (NY).

Nitty-gritty:

A friend of mine in Scotland has written me a sad tale, about how he
used to own "The Jewel Hinged Jaw" but lent it out and has never
seen it, or the borrower, again. Probably wise, in the borrowers
case.  After sufficient crawling he asked me whether I could track
down anything.

Not especially a book-worm, I tried Forbidden Planet in NY. No luck.
So I'm widening my search and asking the collective conscience now
reading.

If you have one spare, or know of one lying around relatively
unattended, you will get in touch, won't you ?  In the words of one
of Daves favourite songs,

        "Grovel, Grovel, Beg, Kneel, Sponge, Crawl".

PS: If you're in Europe, try Dave directly at

db%cstvax@ucl-cs.arpa   or   ..!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!cstvax!db

Andrew Wild.
Net:    {ucbvax, vax135, seismo}!ulysses!amw
Phone:  (201) 582 5810
Snail:  MH 5E-103, Bell Labs @ Murray Hill, NJ.

------------------------------

From: Michael O'Brien <obrien@rand-unix.ARPA>
Date: 21 Nov 85 10:56:45 PST (Thu)
Subject: Re: God Stalk

        Hmm.  Once it's mentioned, I can see how those who are
allergic to cats (in SF and otherwise) might not like this book.
Myself, based on imagination and writing ability I would rate it as
one of the best new fantasies of the last several years.  Certainly
it borrows more from Fritz Leiber than from Jack Vance, and is not
so good as either at the top of their respective forms, but, though
derivative, it has enough new ideas to put it head and shoulders
above the rest of the shabby group.  P.C.'s portrayal of
Tai-Tastigon the city is more interesting than her portrayal of the
Kencyr and their millenia of pissing and moaning and wailing, so I'm
uneasy about how well the second book will go.  The first book,
though, merits attention from anyone who shares the view that
Lankhmar is a wonderful place to read about, but a terrible place to
live OR visit.

        Summary: I agree with /amqueue, as usual.

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish)
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 21 Nov 85 15:39:08 GMT

> Speaking of L. Sprague de Camp, my all time favorite SF novel by
> any author is his "Lest Darkness Fall", about an archaeologist who
> finds himself in Rome about 400 A.D.  He takes it upon himself to
> single-handedly prevent the Dark Ages from falling.  His time is
> about equally divided between meddling in politics and somewhat
> successful attempts at introducing technology.  The only real
> fantasy part of the book is the first 2 pages where he goes back
> through time.  The rest is entirely logical and never leaves you
> thinking "Oh come on now! Do you expect me to believe......".  It
> is also one of the funniest books I have ever read.  Every time I
> read it (10 times now?) I am greatly disappointed that it comes to
> an end.  It is the kind of book that gets you spending your time
> thinking up possible sequels.
>
> Larry Bruns, HP, Colo. Networks Oper. R&D Ft. Collins, CO

Quite right! This is one of my alltime favorites also...I have read
it about 7 times, the first when I was about 13.  It never fails to
get me so involved that I can't put it down!  Another good book in a
similar vein is "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen" by H. Beam Piper.  Again,
this is one of the greats of SF.  The plot is entirely plausible, A
Pennsylvania policeman accidently gets transported to an alternate
time/dimension by accidently wandering into the time bubble of a
time travelling race (while in operation).  He awakes in a North
America where the Aryan migration went east, not west, and crossed
the Bering Strait and settled North America.  The book is fast
moving and entertaining...I would highly recommend it!

Darren Kadish

------------------------------

From: wucec2!rhw9906@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 18 Nov 85 22:01:10 GMT

  I beg to differ, but I don't think Ellison had anything to do with
"The Starlost" after they butchered the hell out of his original
concept. The only story he wrote was "Phoenix without Ashes", and he
put his Cordwainer Bird pseudo on that sucker after they drove it
into the ground. Perhaps it was a concept by Ellison that some
author embellished on, but I doubt it.
  On the subject of cloning societys, anybody ever read "Where Late
the Sweet Birds Sang" by Kate Wilheim(?)? It was a VERY good
treatment of a society set up by cloning, and included the loss of
originality/creativity in the clones.

                    Rick Wyatt

------------------------------

From: linus!dnj@caip.rutgers.edu (David N. Juitt)
Subject: Comments Anyone?
Date: 14 Nov 85 21:08:34 GMT

Can someone provide me with some quick insight to either:

1. The "Titan", "Wizard", "Whatever the third book is"
        trilogy by John Varley

2. "The Three Stigmatas of Palmer Eldridge" by P.K. Dick

Thanks,

Dave Juitt
UUCP: ..linus!security!dnj
ARPA:  dnj@mitre-bedford

------------------------------

From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz)
Subject: Three disappointments from Vance, Heinlein, and Stasheff.
Date: 20 Nov 85 14:49:03 GMT

Even when I see a new book by an old favorite author, I'm patient
enough to wait until it is out in paperback.  Not patient enough to
wait till I can buy it second hand for half price.

I bought "Job" by Heinlein, "Rhialto the Magnificent" by Vance, and
"The Warlock Enraged" by Stasheff, all at full price.  I should have
waited, because they weren't worth it.

Only the last 150 pages of "Job" are worth anything.  The rest is
typical space-filling Heinlein blabber full of self-righteous
straw-man shooting.  The last part gives Christian belief a sound
thumping, but didn't surprise me a bit.  (On the other hand, I'm not
average, even by the standards of SF readers.)  This was the best of
the three.

Vance, despite his stilted prose, usually presents vivid images of
bizarre distant future society.  No different in "Rhialto", but the
plotting, continuity, and rationales fall flat on their faces.  This
is another "dying earth" book.  Not nearly as good as the recent
"Cugel's Saga".

"The Warlock Enraged" is another testament to how wonderful things
can be if you raise your children correctly.  We've seen a slew on
this theme ranging from Heinlein to Anthony to Harrison: they all
assume marvelously precocious and talented children who are really
little grownups, rather than children.  The plot seems secondary:
probably because the problems posed are so blatantly telegraphed and
so trivial.

One final flame.  The last two are prime examples of what I call
disequilibrium science fiction.  They postulate a society where a
disequilibrium exists, and the heroes go exploit it.  The
disequilibrium isn't created by the heroes: it's been around for a
long time.  Why hasn't anyone else exploited it beforehand in all
the obvious ways?  This sort of cheap plotting device turns me off
almost as badly as the "special power arrives in the nick of time"
and "fantastic chain of coincidence" schools.  You can all think of
examples.  I'd much rather see something other than
wish-fulfillment.  Brin's "Sundiver" and "Startide Rising" come to
mind as recent paragons.

Mike Huybensz
...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

------------------------------

Subject: Thieves' World Tie-Ins
Date: 21 Nov 85 10:07:38 EST (Thu)
From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

        If anyone is interested, two of the more recent issues of
F&SF have featured stories about Lythande.  One is titled "Somebody
Else's Magic" and the other was (I believe) "Sea Wrack" or something
similar.
                                Jen H.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 85 14:56:06 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: The "Shaver Mysteries"?

One of John W. Campbell's pet projects (along with dianetics and the
Dean Drive) was, I believe, something called "The Shaver Mysteries".
If I have that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct it! :-) In any
case, though I know something about the other subjects, I don't know
anything about these "Shaver Mysteries".  I can't recall if the word
"Shaver" is a person's name or a generic noun, like "Egyptian".
Anybody have some concise explanations of what this was about, and
if interest in it has persisted to the current day among certain
circles?

Regards, Will Martin
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 15:56:15 est
From: Joe Turner <cutter%umass-boston.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: RoboTech

Super Dimension Century Orguss was done by both Tatsunoko
Productions and Tokyo Movie Shinsa, the people who do the
highly-popular LUPIN III character (ever see the video game ``Cliff
Hanger''? That's recycled Lupin III material!). Problem was that TMS
got the rights to Orguss when it went into syndie in Japan (it
flopped on network tv), and it became immensely popular. TMS wants
$500,000 for the rights alone --- no scripts, no tapes, just the
rights! Carl Macek and Harmony Gold are waiting for the price to
drop. Orguss has much more connection than you say, Ken; it's the
sequel to Macross, fer cryin' out loud!

Plot is basically: Earth has finally developed the technology to
build a skyhook -- a mega-elevator that goes about a mile above
ground level.  Certain groups want control of it, and fighting
ensues. The ammo that both sides are using come in four types:
A-weapons - atomics; B-weapons - bio warfare; C-weapons -
conventional warfare; and D-weapons, which are dimensional weapons.
They distort the "space/time fabric" [cliche cliche] of a certain
area. The main character, Kei Katsureiji, accidentally sets one off
that propels him 20 or so years into the future, and puts up a
barrier around the earth one mile off the surface. The show deals
with his interaction with the two different alien races that have
been brought onto earth by the detonation of the D-bomb, and his
attempts to get back 20 years... not too heavy on the soap-opera,
some nice characterisations. The ending is a socker.

And we may never see it in english in the U.S....

PAPER:
Joe Turner
329 Ward Street, Newton Centre MA 02159
SOUND WAVES:
(617)/969-5993
ELECTRONS:
rg.cutter%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa
turner%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa
cutter%mit-ccc@mit-mc.arpa
cutter@UMASS-BOSTON.csnet
ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Immortality
Date: 20 Nov 85 10:11:47 GMT

Well, since we Elves are in this world the closest to immortal of
all that I know, I thought I should settle this question.  Now I
personally am a very young Elf; this information is secondhand, yet
it should be accurate enough.

What, then, is life like after having lived more than a thousand
years?  Here is what Bregil (~1500) had to say: `I have noticed one
thing in particular, and that is that I am more, well, thoughtful
now; I am not as likely to rush into action as you are [meaning me,
Lindor].  And of course I am wiser---or at least I hope I am wiser.
But other than that I think I live life much as I did a thousand
years ago.'  Those who are even older seem to show this trend
continuing: Some of the greybeards---oh yes, a few Elves do indeed
grow beards, though I meant that as an expression---some seem to do
nothing but advise others.  But there again I have not been around
that long; twenty-two years is as nothing to them.

Of course, all our lives have been affected by the recent
technological developments of Men.  It has become quite hard to
remain undetected; we have moved often in the recent past---though
not in my short memory---and we are considering `going public', as
it were.  Indeed, my tales here are but one part of that very
program.  If all goes well, you may be hearing more from us.  But we
are uncertain: Your balance of actions both for and against us does
not speak well.  Not long ago, historically speaking, we spread many
false rumours about ourselves, and went into hiding.  Not all are
happy about giving this up, and we move cautiously.  For example, I
am now supposed to insert something minor but self-contradictory so
that we can cover our tracks later, but (impulsive as I am) I will
not.

I seem to have diverged from the topic, so I had best stop here.  If
you have specific questions for or about those who are much older
than you and I, mail them to me and I will do my best to answer
them, or to get answers for them.

Lindor, alias Chris Torek,
Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 25 Nov 85 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #446
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Nov 85 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #446
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Nov 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 446

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Ballard & Brin & Chalker &
                    DeCamp & Farmer & Varley (2 msgs) &
                    Weddings in SF & Story Request Answered (3 msgs),
            Television - Amazing Stories & Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hammer!patcl@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Clancy)
Subject: Re: Robots and Empire
Date: 20 Nov 85 01:04:09 GMT

>No spoilers here. I believe it to be classic Asimov. It is the
>pivotal novel in Asimov's quest to tie together the Empire novels
>and the Robot novels.

I started Robots and Empire, and am now stalled about halfway
through, out of sheer boredom. It's been many years since reading
previous books in the series, and they seem much better in
retrospect. R&E suffers mainly from a lack of any interesting new
ideas or plot development. Of course, it might heat up in the 2nd
half; if so, I hope someone will let me know so I can finish it.
There is an interminable amount of dialogue, which seems to take a
very long time to get to the point (and when it does, it hardly
seems worth the wait). The same basic sociological/psychological
conflicts and themes that were the basis of the previous books are
just rehashed here.  A real disappointment.

Pat Clancy

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!tim@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Name That Mega-Building
Date: 21 Nov 85 21:49:00 GMT

There's a J.G. Ballard short story about a big ( I mean BIG )
building.  The building, in fact, seems to occupy the entire
universe.  I don't remember the name of the story, or the name of
the collection it was in.
                                                Tim Smith
                                                ima!ism780!tim

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Yet another Note for Brin fans
Date: 22 Nov 85 01:08:50 GMT

jimb@ISM780B.UUCP writes:
> I have just finished fondling my newly received trade (hardcopy)
> edition of David Brin's STARTIDE RISING, published by Phantasia
> Press.  The cover is disappointing to me; it's well executed but
> it looks like a battle scene from Star Trek VI -- The Nebula
> Strikes Back.

        One other thing about the hardcover - David Brin states that
it is revised - that he changed some of the "klunky language".
Although we haven't been able to find the changes, we presume that
he didn't lie...  Anyway, this is a book you DESERVE to own in
hardback!

Mike Farren
uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1985 09:57:25-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re: Well of Souls Saga

Ken Raeburn <Raeburn@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> writes:
> Has anyone read the Well of Souls series by (Chalker, was it?)?
> It's about a guy named Nathan Brazil, who, according to his own
> accounts, has been around longer than the universe itself, and in
> fact he has to take on the responsibility of destroying the
> current one and starting a new one.  The computer that runs the
> universe simply will not let him die, as he is its maintainer.  He
> seemed to still have the ability to love after going through a lot
> worse than he would even want to have anyone else live through.

I first read the Well of Souls series (which WAS written by Jack
Chalker) when I was in college. It was my introduction to Jack
Chalker. I enjoyed it immensely; I thought the Well World (and all
of its life-forms) were very well-conceived.

Since then, I've read a LOT of Chalker's stuff.  He seems to have a
fixation with immortality and longevity.  Many of his characters are
either immortal (whether happy with the fact or not), or are
striving to be immortal.  Chalker attempts to describe the problems
these characters have dealing with their long lives.  Unfortunately,
he's explored this theme in so many of his books that the trials and
tribulations of his characters have become repetitious.

He also loves to play with body-switching and/or shape-changing.  It
seems that in almost every novel he writes, a character falls asleep
and either awakens in someone else's body or discovers that
overnight he/she has become some bizarre, hitherto-unheard-of
creature. (Examples can be found in _Web of the Chozen_, the _Well
of Souls_ series, the _Soul Riders_ Trilogy, and the _Four Lords of
the Diamond_ series, to name but a few...)

Despite the pulpy feel of much of his writing (I wouldn't call
Chalker a great literary artist), I enjoy most of his stuff.  It's
generally fun, escapist reading.

One man's opinion...

Brian M. Clapper

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 85 13:45:44 PST
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: The Complete Enchanter

In response to Larry Bruns:

The Complete Enchanter (subtitled "The Magical Misadventures of
Harold Shea" ) by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt contains the
following :

The Roaring Trumpet ; which takes place in the world of Norse
   mythology

The Mathematics of Magic ; which takes place in the world of
   Spenser's Faerie Queene

The Castle of Iron ; which takes place in the world of Ariosto's
   Orlando Furioso, with a brief stop in Coleridge's Xanadu

There is also a separate book called The Wall of Serpents, which
takes place in the world of the Kalevala and in the world of Irish
myth.  They are all tongue-in-cheek fantasy, and much fun to read.
Harold Shea moves to these worlds using symbolic logic ( a
syllogismobile ! ), and bumbles around, having hilarious adventures.
In the end, everything is set (reasonably) right.

Linda Wald
math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa

------------------------------

From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Farmer
Date: 21 Nov 85 19:14:14 GMT

        There seems to be some confusion about some of P.J. Farmer's
books.  IMAGE OF THE BEAST contains two stories, IMAGE OF THE BEAST
and BLOWN they are about a private eye and two of his adventures.
Forrest Ackerman is an important character in the second story.
        A FEAST UNKNOWN is a story with the real-life counterparts
of Doc Savage and Tarzan. This has violence and sex and violence and
sex. It is definitely done tongue in cheek and one hell of a good
read for pulp fans. This is followed by THE LORD OF THE TREES/THE
MAD GOBLIN. The first story features Lord Grandrith (Tarzan) after
his adventures in AFU and the second features Doc Caliban (Doc
Savage). At the end of Doc's book the two are reunited. This is
written more pulp-ish than camp-ish and to my opinion is not as good
as the first.
        Farmer has also written two serious works about Tarzan and
Doc Savage. Each is a biography of their lives. They are TARZAN
LIVES (or TARZAN ALIVE, I can't remember at the momoent) and DOC
SAVAGE: HIS APPOCALYPTIC LIFE. Both are very good. I read somewhere
that Farmer is supposedly writing a biography of a certain
crimefighter who worked in New York in the thirties and forties. I
hope he finishes it soon.

------------------------------

From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner)
Subject: Re: Comments Anyone?
Date: 22 Nov 85 18:12:46 GMT

> Can someone provide me with some quick insight to either:
>       1. The "Titan", "Wizard", "Whatever the third book is"
>               trilogy by John Varley
> Dave Juitt
> UUCP: ..linus!security!dnj
> ARPA:  dnj@mitre-bedford

The third book is "DEMON".  All three books are very readable good
science fiction.  I enjoyed them all though "DEMON" was not as good
as the other two.  If you are put off by feminine protagonist
literature you won't enjoy them (don't take this to mean NOW type
feminism, just everyday people who happen to be female).

Also don't be put off by the seemingly 'fantasy' titles - portions
of these books are about as 'hard' as 'hard' science fiction gets!

Matt
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner
AT&T:  (317) 845-3631

------------------------------

From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Comments Anyone?
Date: 21 Nov 85 18:24:00 GMT

John Varley is one of the better Sci fi writers for the '80s.
Titan, Wizard, and the third I believe is Gaia, are very popular.  I
read Titan and it is a classic, for sure.  I haven't read the
sequels but have heard good things. I met Varley up in Eugene,
Oregon 5 yea years ago when he wrote Titan and was promoting it in a
bookstore I hung around in.  He lives up there and the protaganists
name is Eugene Springfield, the 2 sister cities.

------------------------------

From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Query: Marriage and Weddings in SF
Date: 21 Nov 85 19:09:50 GMT

> From: <SORCEROR@LL.ARPA>
>      Here's a somewhat offbeat story/bibliography request for all
> of you SF scholars!  We are engaged to be married next spring, and
> are looking for some unusual material to use in our ceremony.
> Since SF is an important element in both of our personal
> mythologies, we would really like to incorporate or adapt some
> ideas from its culture.  Can anyone recommend stories which
> portray alien wedding customs and/or notable descriptions of "what
> marriage means" to either a society or a couple?  References from
> either science fiction or fantasy are equally welcome.  To
> consider another avenue, does anyone know of actual wed- ding
> ceremonies which have included such material, or ones which were
> delib- erately crafted to celebrate speculation and the
> imagination?
>
>     Any help would be greatly appreciated!  Please send replies
> directly to SORCEROR at LL.ARPA, unless you feel that this query
> might interest other Digest readers.  Thanks profusely and thanks
> in advance!
>                                    Karl Heinemann
>                                and Beverly Slayton

  I tried to mail my response but the darn thing won't work!  I
think my fingers are at fault.  Anyway, the book I thought of when I
read your article was "Strangers" by LeGuin (I think?).

  It is about an earth man getting married to an alien woman.
Neither of them has taken the time to know one another or the
other's culture.  I don't want to spoil it more then I already have,
but I will say that the book has a sad endding.

If this book is what you were looking for let me know (by the net or
mail) and I can get the information to you--I think.  I have the
book at home.

jody

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (KEITH VAGLIENTI)
Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!!
Date: 21 Nov 85 14:05:21 GMT

> From: Mike James X27798 <MJames.Wbst@Xerox.ARPA>
> I am trying to remember a book that I read one summer and can
> think of the name or the author. It was about an invasion into
> America by the Chinese/Japanese and a group of scientists in
> America who used high technology to create their own new religion
> and attempt an overthrow of the invaders. All I remember is that
> the had found the connection between gravity, magnetism, and
> electricity and used this as the basis for their "magic" and
> weapons. Please Help!

I believe the book you are thinking of is _Armageddon_2419_ by
Philip Frances Nowlan. This is the original book upon which the Buck
Roger's stories were based. It concerns the take over of the world
by the Hans and the subsequent efforts by the Americans to end their
domination.  The Americans have indeed found a connection between
gravity and electricity allowing them to manufacture what is called
intertron, a material which falls up. This they use in their jumping
belts and vehicles so that they can make them lighter. There are
several books in this series and I'll try to list them all.

_Armageddon_2419_ by Philip Frances Nowlan
_Mordred_ by John Eric Holmes
_Warriors_World_ by McEnroe (can't remember his first name)
_Rogers'_Rangers_ by Silbersack (can't remember his first name either)

Armageddon focuses on the American rebellion against the Han,
Mordred has Roger's son by a Han princess trying to reestablish a
world wide Han domination with Rogers fighting him, Warriors World
is about the true nature of the Han, and Rangers is about the
efforts to repel the second Han domination. The last three books are
based on notes made by Nowlan when he wrote Armageddon.  Armageddon
and Mordred are fairly good and I recommend both but the last two
aren't quite up to par so you might want to skip them if you're not
a big Buck Rogers fan.

Keith Conrad Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

From: alberta!gordon@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Atwood)
Subject: Re: Re: Help! I need to know!!
Date: 22 Nov 85 21:28:39 GMT

I beg to disagree but if you carefully read the initial letter you
will see it says the Americans set up their own religion.
Armeggedon, by Nowlan does not feature that twist.

The story in question is one written by R.Heinlein.  I believe it
was originally titled "The Sixth Column", or Fifth, or Fourth.  It
was retitled some years ago.  It involves the U.S. suddenly being
invaded by "oriental" types.  It is sudden and almost total.  A
small research facility remains intact in the mountains.

 Said facility has just discovered a "new" physical law which links
gravity, sub-atomic particles, and electricity-magnetism.  They set
up a new religion which allows them to move freely since the
invaders want to keep the populace "happy" by giving them their
religious beliefs to cling to.

Any conversant Heinlein fan should be able to supply the correct
title.

G.H.A.

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish)
Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!!
Date: 21 Nov 85 17:16:11 GMT

The book you are thinking of is "The Day After Tomorrow", but it was
originally titled "the Sixth Column", and it is by Robert Heinlein.
I don't know what happened to my copy, but it was a great book,
(although it was really Rah Rah USA!!!) and it held my attention.
Yes you are correct, in the book the scientists had discovered a
unified field theory, as well as lots of other interesting things,
in a secret military base that survived the attack.  But most of the
personnel of the base had been wiped out by one of the experiments
that led to the discovery of the unified field.

Darren Kadish

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who have
posted similar information:

Martin J. Moore (mooremj@eglin-vax)
Hank Shiffman (Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM)
Brent Chapman (c55-hc@ucbbuddy.BERKELEY.EDU)
Chris Henrich (petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu)
Tim Smith (ISM780B!tim@caip.rutgers.edu)
Andrew Kenah (kenah%hardy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM)
Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} (quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU)]

------------------------------

From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - The Mission - Alt
Date: 18 Nov 85 21:36:00 GMT

I thought he should have jumped, even though the parachute was
ripped.  People have been known to survive terminal velocity into
hard ground (not very likely, but possible), and the chute would
have slowed him down some.  It would have given him a better chance
then staying in the turret (at least it would have in the real
world).
                        Scott McEwan
                        {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 85 11:35 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA

Paramount has release the third set of Star Trek episodes on
videocassette.  They are:

20 "The Alternative Factor"
23 "A Taste of Armageddon"
24 "Space Seed"
25 "This Side of Paradise"
26 "Devil in the Dark"
27 "Errand of Mercy"
28 "City on the Edge of Forever"
29 "Operation: Annihilate!"
33 "Who Mourns for Adonais?"
34 "Amok Time"

My video store owner assures me that Paramount is planning to
release all the episodes, so the ones missing (in sequence) will
probably in the next set.  No dates have been announced for the
future sets, but Paramount aims to have the release of the last set
coincide with the release of STIV.

Lisa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Nov 85 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #447
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Nov 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 447

Today's Topics:

           Books - Duane & Hamilton & Harrison (2 msgs) &
                   Heinlein & Panshin & Square Dance in SF &
                   Thieve's World,
           Films - The Quiet Earth (2 msgs)
           Television - Dr. Who,
           Miscellaneous - Immortality & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Diane Duane completist seeks complete list.
Date: 24 Nov 85 06:28:51 GMT

     I'm a fan of Diane Duane's, and own the following list of her
work.  Have I missed anything?

Door Into Fire
Door Into Shadow
"Parting Gifts" from Flashing Swords #5
"The Mdaha" from Fantasy Book #5
"Lior and the Sea"  from Moonsinger's Friends
Wounded Sky
My Enemy, My Ally
Star Trek #24, #25 (DC comics)
"The Hand that Feeds You" from Wings of Omen
"Down by the Riverside" from Dead of Winter (?)
So You Want to be a Wizard?
Deep Wizardry
    and (last but not least)
the Arden map.

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 85 21:59 EST
From: Mark Purtill <Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2
Cc: tellab3!thoth@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Marcus Hall),
Cc:      jhunix!ins_ajsk@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan Simon Kay)

>> What if time travel caused you to stay in the same place in 4D
>> space?  Travel through time would then cause one to leave our
>> universe and presumably end up in some other universe!...
>You are forgetting one thing: that normal time does not exist
>outside spacetime, by definition.  Therefore, I think that probably
>for the time traveler, all times would have to exist.  Think of it
>not interms of a balloon but an infinite number of balloons one
>inside the other infinitely close to each other.  Each balloon then
>represents the universe at a given moment.  Thus a time traveler
>would not be leaving space-time forever, but would merely be
>traveling to another "balloon."

This reminds my of one of the old "Captain Future" pulp novels Ed
Hamilton wrote back in the 30s or 40s.  (No, I'm not that old - I
read the 60s reprints.)  Anyway, in the one I'm thinking of, Captain
Future travels thru four dimensional space to another
dimension/universe/buzzword.  There he impersonates an ancient hero
to save everybody from the bad guys.  When he gets back home it's
revealed - that's right - that "since the fourth dimension is time"
he actually travelled to the future and impersonated himself.  What
a shocker.
          Actually, the Captain Future novels are pretty good for
pulp.  They're well enough written that you don't notice that for
instance Captain Future and/or his pals have to be captured and
escape exactly three times.

Mark
Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA
2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT by Harry Harrison
Date: 20 Nov 85 15:41:55 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The Stainless Steel Rat is back! "Slippery Jim" diGriz, the 30th
  century's most lovable, laughable, larcenous con man turned
  counterspy, returns for yet another high-tension mission.

  This time the Special Corps has given the Rat a daring
  assignment--liberate a backward tourist planet from the clutches
  of an aging dictator. With his lovely but lethal wife Angelina and
  his two stalwart sons James and Bolivar, diGriz pits ballots
  against bullets in the fight for freedom.  He's vowed to restore
  truth, justice and democracy to the world of Paraiso-Aqui, if he
  has to lie, cheat and steal to do it!"

If you've never read any of Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books,
you have a treat in store for you. The stories are always light,
fast-paced, and tongue-in-cheek. Slippery Jim himself tells the
stories, and there's always a very liberal sprinkling of high
technology devices (Jim uses only the latest and best).
Interestingly enough, Jim abhors violence and uses sleep gas as
often as possible to disable his opponents. (He considers himself a
crook, not a criminal.)

The jacket is pretty accurate about the content of this book, though
the Special Corps really doesn't have much to do with what the
diGriz family undertakes on the planet. This is a nice change of
pace from the "save the universe" stories one frequently encounters
(Jim himself has saved the universe twice.)

I've read a handful of Stainless Steel Rat books, and this one is
the best thus far. I give it 3.0 stars (very good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: cheviot!ncx@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Re: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT by Harry Harrison
Date: 25 Nov 85 16:03:09 GMT

I have to disagree (well I dont HAVE to, but....) with this review,
but I thought that this book was way below the standard of the other
SSR books. It just never got off the ground at all and gave the
impression that Harrison was running out of ideas for this
character.

Lindsay F. Marshall, Computing Lab.,
U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK
ARPA  : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa
JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
UUCP  : <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay

------------------------------

From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars)
Date: 22 Nov 85 20:51:34 GMT

What Heinlein wrote for teenaged females in 1962 was appropriate
*for the time*.  What it says is, "-Hey, the future isn't going to
be all that different from the present; women will fill the same
roles they always have, and (1962) males' assumptions of what those
roles are will remain unchallenged-".

Well, I say, hey, this is *1985*, (in case you hadn't noticed :-),
and women's roles *have* changed, and are continuing to change.  An
uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school
students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about women's
roles.  This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing.  I don't want to see
reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men,
too) have fought to eliminate for so long.  I graduated from high
school in 1976, and the school system then was still steering girls
away from math.  What does Podkayne say?  "-It doesn't look good for
a girl to know math, so even if you do know math, don't let anyone
know about it.  Men are such fragile creatures that they won't be
able to handle it.-"

This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men!

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Anthony Villiers adventures
Date: 23 Nov 85 03:59:52 GMT

Does anyone know whether Alexei Panshin's fourth Anthony Villiers
novel, _The_Universal_Pantograph_, was ever published?

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax  or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 85 23:10:55 PST
From: gea%Romeo@CIT-Hamlet.ARPA
Subject: Square Dancing and SF

    Someone asked about square dancing in SF (I can't find the
original posting): There is a scene somewhere in Barbara Hambly's
trilogy (one of the books is _The Time of the Dark_) involving a
dance that struck me as being square dancing, even though it was
never identified as such.  Sorry I can't be more specific, but my
books are in No-Cal and I'm in Lo-Cal.

                Gary Ansok

------------------------------

From: cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World Tie-Ins
Date: 24 Nov 85 06:13:01 GMT

>From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
>       If anyone is interested, two of the more recent issues of
>F&SF have featured stories about Lythande.  One is titled "Somebody
>Else's Magic" and the other was (I believe) "Sea Wrack" or
>something similar.

      You can also find "Sea Wrack" in the Bluejay anthology
"Moonsinger's Friends."
                                  Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 85 23:37:09 pst
From: stever@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin  )
Subject: The Quiet Earth
Cc: brian@cit-vax.ARPA

This is a really excellent movie.  Go see it.  Knowing the plot sort
of ruins some of the movie, so try to avoid reading reviews which
give the plot away.  (this one won't).

One warning - if you demand 100% correct science in sf films, this
movie won't, so stay home.

The effects were fantastic!  There is a great credits scene with the
rings of Saturn, perhaps viewed from one of it's moons.  (This still
scene has no relation whatsoever to the rest of the movie, which
also has neat graphics which I won't describe).

I left the theater feeling somewhat shook up.  I won't say any more.

                                    Regards,  Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 85 11:56:07 pst
From: brian@cit-vax.ARPA (Brian Von Herzen)
Subject: The Quiet Earth
Cc: stever@cit-vax.ARPA

The Quiet Earth is a horrible film.  Scientifically implausible,
sexist, and having a discontinuous plot, The Quiet Earth attempts to
serve up leftovers from Sartre's "No Exit" with no success.  This is
definitely a movie not worth spending your money on.

------------------------------

From: spock!ckuppe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charles A. Kupperman '87 )
Subject: Season Review: Season 22.
Date: 23 Nov 85 22:26:20 GMT

Season Review: Season 22 (1985)

        This season suffered most of all from the 45 minute format
that it adopted.  The approach to writing a 45 minute episode was
suspiciously similar to that of a 25-minute episode.  In short:
Nothing happens in episode 1 of interest to the plot.  And in
episode 4, the story gets hastily wrapped up in the last five
minutes.
        The only problem is that this approach does not work as well
when applied to the longer format.  What the writers ended up with
was a very long, drawn-out episode 1, then a very fast, rushed
episode 2.  In most of these adventures, it takes the Doctor a good
45 minutes to even run into anything resembling a plot.  Added to
this, the Doctor spends the first twenty or so minutes of each
adventure in the Tardis arguing with Peri.  This blatant padding is
so poorly done that it destroys the whole story.  When Peri and the
Doctor finally get out of the Tardis, the plot has advanced well
beyond the Doctor's ability to get involved.  In other words: The
script writers keep the Doctor out of the way under the pretext of
"developing the plot", but then the plot usually happens quite well
without the Doctor, and he never really breaks into it.  One fan was
watching Revelation of the Daleks, when all of a sudden this strange
extra with curly hair came down a corridor.  For a few moments, this
fan couldn't even remember who the strange extra was.

Attack of the Cybermen (2) by Paula Moore (Eric Saward and Matthew
Robinson)

        This rather confused epic was ORIGINALLY written by a Paula
Moore, who spent SUCH a long time researching the Cybermen and
working the ideas out, then ran out of ideas somewhere in Episode 2.
According to Matthew Robinson, the story was then handed over to him
and Eric.  After a while of brainstorming, the two of them came up
with most of the plot.  They then sat down and rewrote the whole
thing, Saward adding some typical Saward characters, Bates and
Stratton, and Robinson contributing some interesting plot ideas.
The end result, however, is confused and silly.  Lytton is not given
much justice as a "villain", and the Doctor looks very silly indeed.

To be continued...  (Unless anybody objects)

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Immortality
Date: 22 Nov 85 12:25:02 GMT

>>  I eventually came to (among other things) the conclusion that you
>>had to be some kind of psychopath to survive an immortal lifetime,
>>and thus the sort of person that *has* to dominate.
>  I don't see why living thousands of years would drive anyone
> crazy, or why anyone would have to be crazy to want to live
> thousands of years (I'm not sure which you meant).
>  I've always thought it would be a neat practical joke, once we
> all have immortality, to send someone back to the precambrian in a
> time machine and strand him there, make him 'walk' back.  Has
> anyone written anything like this?

What I meant was that you had to be psychopathic to *be able* to
live thousands,nay millions of years without the boredom eventually
driving you into a worse kind of insane. It is true, though, that
immortality would probably end up driving you into a psychopathic
state anyway ("There's nothing wrong with *me*!")  Fredrick Pohl, in
Drunkard's Walk, hypothesised that immortals would become frightened
that they might be killed, deathly afraid of losing eternal life,
paranoid, and end up trying to rule the world anyway. You pays your
money..:-) In regard to your last point, it seems to me that this is
one of the worst kind of paradoxes. If the guy survived from the
pre-Cambrian, he'd *definitely* want to stop you doing it. So if
no-one stops you doing it, it's obvious that the guy died somewhere
along the way, and your joke goes a little sour. Unless of course he
knew that he'd violate quite a few laws of time if he stopped you,
so never made the effort and merely tried to get even. This in turn
creates opportunities for paradox etc. I may write this up myself,
in which case you will be credited - so send your name in full. Be
seeing you...
                                Robert Ramsay

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 22 Nov 85 21:41:20 GMT

hoey@nrl-aic writes:
>  True, giant insects, organic slimes, or humanoids with tentacles
>might incite disgust (remember the diplomat in Heinlein's *Star
>Beast*).  But why do we expect aliens to look like something we
>avoid on Earth?  Real aliens should be so different from anything
>we would recognize as organic that aversion wouldn't be aroused.
>Could a monolith, a hurkle, a berserker, or a beach ball make you
>queasy?

        There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of
possible forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the
structure of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in about
the same way as the interactions of subatomic particles are.
Basically you are *both* wrong. Living things from other planets
would match neither of your ideas. Giant insects are highly unlikely
for mechanical and physiological reasons, as are large, intelligent
slimes. Tentacles *might* develop on "humanoids", but they would
end up looking rather like monkeys' tails. A monolith or a beach
ball would be a lousy form for anything except perhaps some sort of
plant, and would be unlikely to be either mobile or intelligent.
Berserkers are *artificial*.
        What would life from another planet look like? That's easy,
just look at Earth 120 million years ago, it was a different planet
then, and the dominant life forms were only *distantly* related to
modern forms. The ways in which the life forms then solved their
problems was achieved independently of the way modern mammals have
solved the same problems. Or you could look at Australia, for all
practical purposes it has been a separate system for the last
several million years, at least until very recently.

> And if aliens have anywhere near as stringent environmental
>requirements as humans do, our environments will probably be
>disjoint, so we won't see, smell, or touch anything but the inside
>of our life support system.

        Maybe, but actually our environmental requirements are among
the *least* restrictive of any organism on this planet. If the aliens
were similarly among the most general organisms on *their* planet,
there should be at least some small range of overlap.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen
ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Nov 85 1016-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #448
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Nov 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 448

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Asimov (2 msgs) & Ellison &
                   Heinlein (6 msgs) & Kurtz & McCaffrey &
                   Panshin & Varley & Mono Sex Societies (2 msgs) &
                   Shaver Mysteries & Story Request Answered

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Obscure books
Date: 25 Nov 85 16:25:00 GMT

 I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties
about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth!  I only saw one copy
of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember the
title!  Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have yet
to see.  Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA please
respond.

Also I haven't been able to find Somtow Sutcharitkuls book Aquiliad.
Any one heard of it or read it?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1985 14:11:45-EST
From: clapper@NADC
Subject: Re: Robots and Empire

hammer!patcl@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Clancy) writes:
> I started Robots and Empire, and am now stalled about halfway
> through, out of sheer boredom. It's been many years since reading
> previous books in the series, and they seem much better in
> retrospect. R&E suffers mainly from a lack of any interesting new
> ideas or plot development. Of course, it might heat up in the 2nd
> half; if so, I hope someone will let me know so I can finish it.
> There is an interminable amount of dialogue, which seems to take a
> very long time to get to the point (and when it does, it hardly
> seems worth the wait). The same basic sociological/psychological
> conflicts and themes that were the basis of the previous books are
> just rehashed here.  A real disappointment.

I had similar feelings toward the novel.  It seemed to take forever
to finish.  I usually do some reading just before I go to bed at
night; three nights straight, conversations between Daneel and
Giskard put me to sleep.  Nonetheless, _Robots and Empire_ DOES get
better in the second half, although it never comes close to _The
Naked Sun_ or _Caves of Steel_.  (I couldn't put either of those
novels down when I read them.)  It's worth finishing, if only to see
how Asimov augments his Three Laws of Robotics.

Brian M. Clapper
clapper@nadc   (ARPA)

------------------------------

From: wucec2!rhw9906@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr)
Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!!
Date: 25 Nov 85 21:17:45 GMT

   I can't say I agree with the criticism of "Robots and Empire". I
just finished reading it last night, and I was very impressed by the
way Asimov handles the robots Daneel and Giskard and their struggle
against their own logic. This is the crux of the book, and is hard
to appreciate if you are not thouroughly familiar with Asimov's
Robots series. As one who has read all of his Robot stories and
novels, I consider R&E to be his masterwork, his final say on robots
and their laws. To say more would be to ruin the book for quite a
few people.

     Literally Yours,
       Rick Wyatt

------------------------------

From: lee@doc
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 22 Nov 85 04:04:00 GMT

Ellison said in a Starlog interview that "Paladin" was an original
story written by him for "Twilight Zone" but that he was adapting
the screenplay into a short story.  People who have read the story
evidently think that the story is Hugo material.

Lee Cochenour
allegra!convex!ctvax!trsvax!doc!lee

------------------------------

Date: 26 NOV 85 09:05-EST
From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA
Subject: re: Help! I need to know!!

Mike,

The story you are looking for is

_Sixth_Column_, by Anson MacDonald (a pseudonym of R.A.Heinlein)
pub. as a 3 part serial in _Astounding_SF_ starting in January,
1941.  Hardback: Gnome, 1946 Paperback: Signet, as
_The_Day_After_Tomorrow_, 1951

Source: Tuck: _Encyclopedia_of_SF_and_F_, vol 1, pg 216.

I distinctly remember reading an article saying that this was based
on a short novel by John Campbell. I could swear that Campbell's
story was recently (within the past 5 years) printed in a collection
of his unpublished works, but I couldn't find it when I went looking
for it last night. jayembee?

Selden Ball

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 85 14:14:13 PST
From: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Story request answer

The book is "The Day After Tomorrow" by Robert A. Heinlein.
Evidently this book was RAH's way to help SYSGEN the American People
into "World War II mode" as the copyright date on my book is 1941.
The invaders in the book are thinly veiled Japanese although the
book denies that the Asian invaders are of any present race.  They
are portrayed just short of eating babies alive.  RAH has written
better.

Al Wong
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Pasadena, California

------------------------------

From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Hahn)
Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!!
Date: 26 Nov 85 01:21:30 GMT

   Excuse me--that's SIXTH COLUMN, which title is a reference to
FIFTH COLUMN, which is by Hemingway, not Heinlein.  (Amusingly,
because of the alphabetic nearness of the authors' names, it is
possible these two to be next to each other on a library shelf, but
in reverse order.)
    As for the racism, well, Heinlein is not usually particularly
racist.  I know that he wrote this novel at a suggestion from John
W. Campbell, Jr., whose idea it was for the magnetogravitic,
electrogravitic, and electromagnetogravitic spectra.  Possibly some
other of Campbell's attitudes got in there as well.
                                                pH

------------------------------

From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars)
Date: 25 Nov 85 18:15:41 GMT

>An uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school
>students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about women's
>roles.  This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing.  I don't want to see
>reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men,
>too) have fought to eliminate for so long.  I graduated from high
>school in 1976, and the school system then was still steering girls
>away from math.  What does Podkayne say?  "-It doesn't look good
>for a girl to know math, so even if you do know math, don't let
>anyone know about it.  Men are such fragile creatures that they
>won't be able to handle it.-"

What are you going to do?  Remove the book from the shelves?  Ovner
my dead body!

I graduated from high school in 1965.  I remember what it was like.
And what it was like is exactly the quote you include in your
posting.  That's a pretty accurate statement of what I was told to
be like.  Well, I rejected it.  I remember being thought odd because
I did not hide my brains, didn't love clothes and makeup, (gasp!)
took math courses, and READ SF (including lots of Heinlein).  I went
back to my high school reunion this last year.  Out of 13 women only
two of us have careers!

But personally, I WANT my children to read things like this.  I do
not want my girls to forget, ever, that we have come so far.  I want
my girls to know that things change.  I want my girls to know that
it was not always like 1985, and that things can be like 1965 again
unless we make an effort to hold on to what we have.  And I want
them to know what I had to fight to be what I am today.

And I remember that reading Heinlein helped make me the way I am.
(Not politically, certainly...)  How, I am not sure, but SF
encouraged me in my odd ways.  I assume it would do the same for my
children. (Who, unfortunately, show no interest in SF.  Sigh.  But
if they ever do, I want it to be there for them.)

I think you greatly underestimate junior high and high school
students.  They are perfectly capable of critical reading.  Anyone
who isn't is reading romances--not SF.

Besides, vintage Heinlein is good fun.

                                     Sue Brezden
                                     ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Po
Date: 25 Nov 85 16:18:00 GMT

You have to Heinlein credit for trying to write sf with a feminine
protaganist.  He was one of the few to do so, not just Podkyne, but
others like Holly in The Menace from Earth, and Friday, and The
Number of the Beast.  I like his female characters for they are not
stereotypical but instead for the most part uniquely strong-willed.
But I also like Anne McCafferys characters because they are unique
and somehow a unique character if vital to a good novel or story.

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars)
Date: 25 Nov 85 21:33:44 GMT

I (even when I was in that "uncritical" age group) read that
particular section as meaning "Don't let anyone know you know math
because men are such schmucks they can't take it."  I didn't read it
as meaning that women shouldn't learn math, and suspect a little
projection in anyone who does.

I agree that it doesn't seem very fair, but it is a valid
observation?  My wife has a math degree, and she has commented on
just this sort of thing -- that she had to learn to play dumb about
some math things to fit in.  Similarly, I tend not to mention the
fact that I like to cook and do most of the cooking unless I am sure
that the people I'm speaking with can deal with it (a lot of people
can't in North Carolina.  They're often the people who tell my wife
about how soon I'll have my degree so she can come home and be a
housewife.)

But go read Heinlein's expanded Worlds collection (I can get you
ISBN etc if you like, but it's not right at hand).  In it he talks
at some length about his wife who is a better mathematician than he
is.  He also has at least one of the stories he wrote for a girl's
magazine.  He also has a short but reasoned argument that women
should be the *only* people allowed to vote.

Doesn't sound very non-feminist to me.

But I stll persist in the idea that Podkayne should be taken in
context with its time.  Otherwise, we get into a once a generation
bookburining in which everything that doesn't agree with our "modern
sensibilites" goes.

But if we do that, there are a number of female feminists that are
going to have books go to the torch as well:

   Mary W. Shelly
   Cora Bloom (? The woman who invented bloomers.  She was *quite*
    radical for her time -- but she had the same sort of idea about
    math.)
   Betty Friedan.

And we'd better forget Abraham Lincoln as an abolitionist, too.
Check what *he* had to say about blacks after slavery.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

Date: Tue 26 Nov 85 13:49:13-PST
From: Randall B. Neff <NEFF@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Katherine Kurtz

I spoke with Katherine Kurtz at an autograph party in San Jose last
Sunday; here is what is coming:

The third book in the current trilogy is finished and turned in to
del Rey, it is undergoing final polish.  It will be a Fall 86
hardcover.

There will be a hardcover collection of Deryni short stories in
Spring 86.

The next books planned will be trilogy to follow the Camber trilogy.
The first book WILL NOT be called Camber, the Zombie.  She refused
to say if Camber is dead or alive (in the next trilogy).

She, her husband, and step-son are moving to a castle in Ireland in
January.

Randy.   NEFF@SU-SIERRA

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: "Killashandra" by Anne McCaffrey
Date: 25 Nov 85 05:25:15 GMT

I've just finished Killashandra, Anne McCaffrey's new book.
Consider this a mini-review.  The book is another story from the
life of the title character, originally from Crystal Singer.  The
story is about a trip she takes to install new crystal on a
multi-sensory organ on a distant planet.  Almost none of it is based
on Ballybran, which is a crime since that's what made Crystal Singer
so magical.

I won't get into more plot details.  The characters are as flawed as
ever, much worse than anything McCaffrey has ever done.  The book
has very little to offer outside of one vaguely interesting culture
that is incredibly derivative of an earthside stereotype of a
culture.

On a scale of -4 to +4, I'd give the book +1.  Mainly because I like
Killashandra from before and I have fond memories of Crystal Singer.
Hardcover, borrow it, get it for Xmas, or wait for the paperback.

P.S.  I recently read Footfall if anyone wants to hear about that.

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Anthony Villiers adventures
Date: 25 Nov 85 02:34:00 GMT

No, it wasn't.  Ace (the publisher of the first 3 books) sold itself
to Grosset & Dunlap, who dumped the Panshin books.

------------------------------

From: enea!peno@caip.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen)
Subject: Re: Comments Anyone?
Date: 26 Nov 85 01:36:37 GMT

>John Varley is one of the better Sci fi writers for the '80s.
>Titan, Wizard, and the third I beleive is Gaia, are very popular.
>I read Titan and it is a classic, for sure.  I haven't read the
>sequels

The Gaean trilogy is good indeed but it's nothing compared to what
he used to do (Ophiuchi Hotline for example).  I'm a bit
disappointed that my favorite authors, Varley and Silverberg, have
started writing this "heroic" stuff.  The best part about Gaea is
the scenery, like the opening pages of the third book (Demon).  The
climax of the story I forgot as soon as I read it.

Net address: ...mcvax!enea!peno

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 30 Nov 85 05:13:00 GMT

In the U.S, Wyndham's "Consider Her Ways" was published along with
Peake's "Boy in Darkness" and Golding's "Envoy Extraordinary" in a
book title *Sometime Never*, sometimes seen in used paperback
stores.

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 25 Nov 85 01:47:00 GMT

Poul Anderson wrote 'After Doomsday' in 1961.  all the women wiped
out while the men were off trading and drinking by some aliens they
thought were friendly.

Bertram Chandler wrote 'Spartan Planet' (n.d. known).

Avram Davidson wrote 'Mutiny in Space' in 1964.  'Castaways of the
universe marooned on a lost planet of war-crazed females!'

there are bunches more.

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: The "Shaver Mysteries"?
Date: 25 Nov 85 02:25:00 GMT

Not Campbell--Ray Palmer, during his tenure at amazing.  Some yo-yo
named Shaved talked Palmer into publishing this drivel; since Palmer
was concerned only with money, and since Palmer had nothing but
contempt for science fiction anyway, he went ahead and published
it--with predictable results: it drove away most of the regular
readers.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 85 12:12:59 EST
From: Melinda Berkman <mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA>
Subject: story request answered

A request was made recently for identification of a story that
involved a society of descendants of stranded space travelers which
used cloning machinery intended for farm animals to perpetuate the
human race in the absence of females.  This time I waited to look it
up since I was so far off the last time I tried to identify a story.
Although there are probably several pieces of fiction that fit this
description, I think the short story Friedman had in mind was "Full
Fathom Five My Father Lies", by Rand B. Lee.  It appeared in the
February 16, 1981 issue of Asimov's.  It must have been good for me
to remember the title almost five years later without having reread
it since.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Dec 85 0959-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #449
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 449

Today's Topics:

               Books - Chalker & Heinlein & Panshin &
                       Thieve's World & Shaver Mysteries &
                       Story Request Answered (4 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Star Trek Welcommittee & 
                       Immortality & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_atrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Richard Holtz)
Subject: Re: Re: Immortality vs Love
Date: 27 Nov 85 17:18:42 GMT

brianu@ada-uts.UUCP writes:
> {Concerning the Well World Series}
> One of my favorite series.  I believe there are five books in this
> series. For ten points, which character appears in all five?  (and
> the answer is not Nathan Brazil).

Okay, for ten points, the answer is:
                  SERGE "I lied" ORTEGA,
one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite series.

I highly recommend this series for anyone who likes lots and lots of
aliens, adventure, and fun.  It gives one of the best hard-core SF
explanations of magic I've ever encountered (just how "natural" are
the natural laws...), and many interesting characters.  As for
immortality, there are many characters that come close, and two who
achieve it.  If, however, you are a fundamentalist concerning
religion, please stay away from the series.  Chalker's version of
God (well, maybe he's god...)  doesn't exactly coincide with any of
the standard Judeo-Christian views, as Serge Ortega points out.

                                                Dragonlord
P.S. Can anyone out there name, for twenty points, the ten longest
lived characters in the Well World Universe?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 21:07:28 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars)
To: calmasd!gail@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

>From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
> What does Podkayne say?  "-It doesn't look good for a girl to know
>math, so even if you do know math, don't let anyone know about it.
>Men are such fragile creatures that they won't be able to handle
>it.-"

    This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men!

  Heinlein is an author, not a politician.  Anyway, the opinions of
his characters are not necessarily his opinions.  If you had read
much Heinlein you would know he is 100% for equal rights.
  Besides, Podkayne is obviously poking fun at male chauvinists in
the passage you quoted, not agreeing with them.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Anthony Villiers adventures
Date: 27 Nov 85 22:20:12 GMT

        I am told by someone who had the chance to look at the
manuscript that The Universal Pantograph was, simply, DREADFUL.  My
own theory is that married life may have agreed with Panshin, but
caused his writing to go downhill, FAST!  Certainly he was, before
he married Cory, one of my favorite writers; now he's not even on my
"will read" list.

Mike Farren
uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618

------------------------------

From: chabot@miles.DEC
Subject: Thieves' World: bah!
Date: 26 Nov 85 16:47:55 GMT

By the title I chose, I hope everyone is prepared to deal with the
fact that I'm going to say something...uncomplimentary.

Here goes: YUCK.  I've bought every one so far, and this is
absolutely the last.  From now on, if any more come out, I'll have
this blind spot.  I'm sure that some will call me "Fool!", because
they don't read this kind of stuff anyway; and I'm sure that there
are still the Faithful.  If there are still Faithful reading my
posting who haven't bought it yet, I say, "Be warned!"

Now, you can't say I haven't got patience, because I just got
through reading some Trollope without becoming Rip van Winkle.  [You
want lack of action and a bizarre, incomprehensible mileu, you don't
have to go to Thieves' World LXXXV.]  Anyway, every story but
Offut's put me to sleep in the first two pages, if not before, and
Offut's was dull (although not nearly as dull as the end-piece
dealing with the anecdotes of writing for Thieves' World --I say,
"Who cares!", but then maybe this is of more interest to those who
edit...okay, maybe it's for them).  I've had trouble in the past
with, oh, say, sustaining interest in #2, or with an occasional
story in a volume (hey, I never expected perfection), but never have
I before experienced such boredom with a whole volume.

Well, the cover has lots of pretty colors, and metallic lettering.
Practically no eyes at all, though, let alone people without eyelids
(it's just not the same without those folks without eyelids :-) ).
It's snowing here, and this ought to make pretty flames.

On the other hand, I'm still lusting in my heart after the next
Liavek...

L S Chabot

------------------------------

From: hyper!dean@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Gahlon)
Subject: Re: The "Shaver Mysteries"?
Date: 26 Nov 85 23:59:02 GMT

> From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
> One of John W. Campbell's pet projects (along with dianetics and
> the Dean Drive) was, I believe, something called "The Shaver
> Mysteries". If I have that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct
> it! :-)

Sure enough, I'm someone. It wasn't Campbell, it was Ray Palmer.

> In any case, though I know something about the other subjects, I
> don't know anything about these "Shaver Mysteries".  I can't
> recall if the word "Shaver" is a person's name or a generic noun,
> like "Egyptian". Anybody have some concise explanations of what
> this was about, and if interest in it has persisted to the current
> day among certain circles?

> Regards, Will Martin

The Shaver Mysteries were started when an author named Richard S.
Shaver published some stories in _Amazing_ referring to various
elder races (the "Dero" [the bad guys; it stands for "DEvolved
RObots" or some such] and the "Tero" [the good guys; it stands for
"inTEgrant RObots" or some such]) and their activities as they
affect/affected humanity.  Most of the furor about them arose when
Ray Palmer, the editor of _Amazing_, took wholeheartedly to them and
began claiming that they were nonfiction. (Claiming he had felt the
Deros' evil rays, etc., etc.)  So far as I know, nobody is
interested in the Shaver mysteries anymore nowadays.

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish)
Subject: Re: Obscure books
Date: 27 Nov 85 16:24:38 GMT



>  I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties
>about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth!  I only saw one
>copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember
>the title!  Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have
>yet to see.  Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA
>please respond.

The book you are looking for is not by Piers Anthony.  It was by
Kurt Vonnegut and the title was "Slaughterhouse Five", and it was
about a dentist who gets abducted by aliens and put in a zoo, and
made to perform sex acts with a kidnapped movie star (female).

Darren Kadish

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel)
Subject: Re: Obscure books
Date: 27 Nov 85 19:55:03 GMT

ins_adlk@jhunix.UUCP (Darren Lee Kadish) writes:
>> I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties
>>about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth!  I only saw one
>>copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember
>>the title!  Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have
>>yet to see.  Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA
>>please respond.
>
>The book you are looking for is not by Piers Anthony.  It was by
>Kurt Vonnegut and the title was "Slaughterhouse Five", and it was
>about a dentist who gets abducted by aliens and put in a zoo, and
>made to perform sex acts with a kidnapped movie star (female).

No, Piers Anthony has done some stuff on this topic also.  In the
Asimov et. al. collection The_Science_Fictional_Olympics and also in
the Piers Anthony collection Anthonology, there is a Piers Anthony
story called "Getting into University".  It's about a dentist from
Earth applying to a Galactic Dental School.  According to some
things I've read, Anthony has written other stuff on this dentist
detailing how he got into interstellar society (Earth doesn't know
about extra-terrestrial life or interstellar society).  Excellent
story, and I'd love to read other stories about Dillingham (the
dentist), or the novel which I hadn't heard about.

Triple Detente is also excellent.  A friend turned me on to Anthony
by lending me it, but I haven't seen any copies of it in years.

Bruce Israel
University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept.
{rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet)
israel@Maryland (Arpanet)

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Obscure books
Date: 2 Dec 85 13:33:00 GMT

anthony's first or second novel was called 'chthon.'  it was about
*someone* kidnapped from earth....

------------------------------

From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Obscure books
Date: 30 Nov 85 08:09:41 GMT

josh@ism70.UUCP writes:
> I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties
>about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth!  I only saw one
>copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember
>the title!  Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have
>yet to see.  Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA
>please respond.

Try "Change of Hobbit" books.  They can find *anything*.

The dentist story is "Prostho Plus" and the copy I have was stolen
from Josh Gordon, who bought it in Eugene.  I also have his copy of
"Hasan" which is a fairly horrid Anthony book about the Arabian
Nights.

It's amazing how BAD "Prostho Plus" really is, although it DOES show
some primal trends in the Anthony style of writing...  The hero is
competent but has to prove himself through ingenuity, and is in the
end rewarded for his integrity.  The famous Anthony treatment of
women is beautifully expressed in Prostho Plus.  The ONLY female
character is the dental hygenist who is kidnapped when the dentist
hero cannot operate competently without her, and she falls
mindlessly in love with him for his selfless and heroic dedication
to the Healing Art of the Dentist.

Hutch

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who submitted
similar information:

Ian Moor (icdoc!iwm@caip.rutgers.edu)
Lars Andersson (lars@cartan.BERKELEY.EDU)
Lyle McElhaney (cisden!lmc@caip.rutgers.edu)]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 15:55 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA

A number of people, on reading my postings signed "Star Trek
Welcommittee" have written to me asking "What is the Star Trek
Welcommittee?"  Well, I'd like to post an exerpt from our flyer:

The Star Trek Welcommittee (STW) is a non-profit service
organization/central information center (NOT a club to join) with
about 50 volunteer workers in 35 states & foreign countries.  These
volunteer workers devote their time and efforts to answering fans'
questions about Star Trek and provide new fans with complete
infomation about Star Trek and Star Trek fandom.  All we ask is a
Self-Addressed, Stamped Envelope (SASE) for a reply.

Few fans realize all that is really available in the world of Star
Trek: 300 clubs, 400 fanzines, over 75 books, conventions, and sales
items.  That's where the Star Trek Welcommittee comes in - we can
give you information on all this plus more: ST technology, ST
actors, details of the making of ST (live-action, animated, and the
movies), trivia, pen pals, other fans in your area, aid in forming
clubs, publishing fanzines, obtaining local publicity for your Star
Trek organization - whatever your question on Star Trek or Star Trek
fandom is, chances are that we've got the answer - or can get it for
you.  Write us!

STAR TREK WELCOMMITTEE
Box 12
Saranac, MI 48881

Also, you can message me on the net with any questions, and I'll try
to answer them, or refer you to someone else who can.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 21:25:40 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Immortality
To: kcl-cs!ramsay@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

>From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
>In regard to your last point, it seems to me that this is one of
>the worst kind of paradoxes. If the guy survived from the
>pre-Cambrian, he'd *definitely* want to stop you doing it.

  Not necessarily.  He might decide he enjoyed it.  Anyway, what
point would there be in stopping you from doing it once it is over
and done with?
  Or you can adopt the parallel time-tracks or meta-time models, in
which you alternately succeed and fail at this prank.
  Or maybe he is simply unsuccessful at stopping you.

>So if no-one stops you doing it, it's obvious that the guy died
>somewhere along the way, and your joke goes a little sour.

  He can't die.  He's immortal.  Of course worse things could
happen.  For instance he might get caught in a volcanic eruption and
end up firmly embedded in solid rock.  Unless he has the patience of
a Pak Protector, this could get boring waiting millions of years for
the rock to erode away and free him.  Billions of years if it gets
subducted into the Earth's mantle.  Perhaps that is why he doesn't
stop you.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 21:50:17 EST
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Aliens
To: psivax!friesen@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU

>From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
>There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of possible
>forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the structure
>of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in about the same
>way as the interactions of subatomic particles are.

  Right.  The modern shark and dolphin, and the ancient icthysaur,
are all about the same size and shape.  This is for purely
functional reasons, NOT because of common ancestry.  They all did
have common ancestors, but the ancestors were a very long ago and
were nothing like any of them.  A clear case of parallel evolution.
  Other example are the eye of the octopus and the mammalian eye.
The modern nautilus and the ancient ammonoids.  The placental versus
the marsupial mouse, rat, tiger, wolf, and bear.  These are all
examples of independant evolution.
  As such, I predict that on any remotely earthlike world, creatures
and plants would resemble those on earth, even if their internal
chemistry was completely different.
  And I think it is unlikely to be very different.  At one time it
was believed that amino acids and RNA bases were very complicated
and rare chemicals, but it has since been found that amino acids and
RNA and DNA fragments can be produced by exposing almost any mixture
of simple carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and oxygen containing compounds
to almost any form of concentrated energy.  And amino acids have
been found in meteorites, comets, and even in gas clouds in
interstellar space!
  The chemicals of which life are made are the most common elements
in the universe combined in the most natural nontrivial ways.
  And, as scientists learn more about planetary formation,
atmospheres of chlorine or oceans of ammonia seem less likely.  It
now seems that alien inhabited worlds will be very much like Earth.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Dec 85 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #450
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 450

Today's Topics:

           Books - Stewart & Footfall & Star Trek Books &
                   Some Reviews & Shaver Stories & 
                   Two More Requests & Request Answered

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Earth Abides Question
Date: 27 Nov 85 06:33:17 GMT

I am currently reading "Earth Abides" by G. R. Stewart from which
this quote:
           `I lied. Not what I said, what I didn't say. But it's all
           the same. You're just a nice boy. You looked at my my
           hands, and said they were nice. You never even noticed
           the blue in the half-moons.'

In the context in which it is written, this seems to have a racial
connotation that I'm unfamiliar with. Would someone enlighten me?

Hank Buurman  Tektronix Inc.  ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb

------------------------------

From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut)
Subject: "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Date: 27 Nov 85 16:37:41 GMT

Footfall
Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
a Del Rey book, 1985  (hardcover)

Footfall is the latest collaboration between Niven and Pournelle.
This is a BIG book (500 pages).  It has to be.  It has a BIG cast.
The basis of the story is that aliens have come to take over the
earth.  In fact, they want to incorporate humans into their
herd-like culture.  The aliens look a lot like Dumbo-the-elephant.
Their manipulative members are trunks that split, split, and split
again (eight digits.)

The aliens are well thought out and their culture (what little of it
appears within the story) makes a kind of sense.  I don't quite
believe it, but...

The story itself is nothing to write home about.  There is a cast of
thousands all of whom turn out to know each other (quite frequently
in the biblical sense of the word "know").  God only knows why, but
otherwise moral characters will screw like rabbits at the drop of a
suggestion.  Coincidence and super technology abounds in places
where it shouldn't be necessary.  Luckily, the U.S. is saved by the
advanced thinking capabilities of science fiction authors, led by
the legendary writer, Anson.  Cute name.  He even acts like RAH is
said to behave.  Hmmmmm.

Remove the gratuitous sex, stupid coincidences, extra characters
that don't add much to the plot (an entire survivalist group that
exists in the book for one purpose [last 100 pages], which purpose
is only there to move one character to the right place at the right
time, who is only there to ...)  and you have a 125-150 page book
without a lot to recommend it.

On a scale of -4 to +4 this one rates -1.  Niven and Pournelle write
well together, and the imagery is all there.  But what a waste.
Read this one if someone lends it to you and you have a lot of time
on your hands.  Or if you have a thing for Niven/Pournelle.  I rated
it as -1 since it is well written (even if what's there isn't such a
great idea), and it is Niven.  How long before Niven reaches that
awful place Asimov and Heinlein have found?

Stephen Perelgut
Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!gcc@caip.rutgers.edu (Greg C Croasdill)
Subject: ST Books
Date: 15 Nov 85 21:06:20 GMT

G'day

In responce to a request put in this here NG some days ago I would
like to offer some quick tips / reviews on some of the Star Trek
books that have been published in the last few years.

rating scale :   (0)        =  DOG! - don't waste your money
             ***               =  Average - If you have a few extra
                                  hours ...
             *****             =  Must Read.

POCKET Books

***          #1 Star Trek: The Motion Picture
***          #2 The Entropy Effect
*            #3 The Klingon Gambit
*            #4 The Covenant of the Crown
(0)          #5 The Prometheus Design
***          #6 The Abode of Life
*****        #7 The Wrath of Kahn
***          #8 Black Fire (a 'get' Spock, but fun)
(0)          #9 Triangle
***          #10 Web of the Romulans
**           #11 Yesterday's Son
*            #12 Mutiny on the Enterprise
*****        #13 The Wounded Sky
**           #14 The Trellisane Confrontation
**           #15 Corona
*****        #16 The Final Reflection (About the Klingon
                 civilization - very, very well done)
***          #15 Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
*****        #18 My Enemy, My Ally (About Romulans)
****         #19 Tears of the Singers
***1/2       #20 The Vulcan Academy Murders (A so so whodunit)
***          #21 Uhura's Song
*            #22 Shadow Lord
*****        #23 Ishmael (Spock visits Seattle
                 ('Here come the brides'))
(0)          #24 Killing Time (the only one I couldn't finish)
*            #25 Dwellers of the Crucible (I'm being nice here)
**           #26 Pawns and Symbols (Looks good so far (pg.123))

Well those are all of the Pocket books out there as of this week.
Bantam has some too, but they are all old.  Pocket is the official
ST publisher.

Hopes this help you from
a) buying dogs
b) missing some good books

Greg C.
(gcc @uw-beaver!ssc)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Dec 85 10:07:19 EST
From: Daniel Dern <ddern@bbncch.ARPA>
Subject: Mini-Reviews & Cheap Shots

(Non-spoilers)

THE CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, Robert A Heinlein

   God stopped creating after Friday.  I wish Heinlein had followed
suit.

ROBOT & EMPIRE, Isaac Asimov

   Dern's 4th Law of Robotics -- A robot shall not bore a human
being to death, now, through inaction, allow other characters to do
so.

I found BOTH these books very disappointing.  CAT was OK through
page 150, and adequate through 250, although the plot was minimal
and lacking any real movement (...Strange things happened.  Heroes
threatened.  Heroes flee.  Heroes hassled.  But Why?...)

CAT, up to page 250, is not as excessive as Heinlein's last few, in
terms of interminable debate on protocols, or icky-poo adults
swapping warm fuzzies.  Then the tail third of the book commits
terminal indulgence, by my eyes, and returns to the plot four pages
before the end, just in time to wimp out.  Assuming you grant the
driving premise of the plot action -- why Our Heroes must do what
they gotta do -- that still doesn't account for why This Way or
These Folks in Particular.  I wish he hadna dunnit.

R&E continues Asimov's increasing trend to conversational overkill.
By the time it comes together, I didn't care.  I don't care whether
he ties his books together or not.  Yawn.  A few nice touches in an
otherwise empty book.

Clarke's 2010 was one of the better SF 'sequels' I've seen to date.
Clarke both wrote a good book and retrofit facts well.  But he was
only trying to tie up one book's worth of loose ends.

For a real good 'sequel', read John D. MacDonald's lastest Travis
Magee book, SILVER [word forgotten] RAIN.  Great action, good plot,
great changes and surprises.  MacDonald knows how and where to bring
back loose ends.

Any (non-spoiler) comments on Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA?

daniel dern
ddern@bbn.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Nov 85 00:30:03-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Shaver Mystery explained.

   Well here is what the Fancyclopedia II (Richard Eney 1959) has to
say about the 'Shaver Mystery'. (Quoted without permission).

[start of quotation]
(deleted)

[end of quotation]

Obscurantisms:
Club House: A department in Amazing magazine, reporting on events in
  many SF clubs.
FAPA: Fantasy Amateur Press Association, a fanzine.
Insurgents: A fun-loving movement within fandom decrying Serious
  Constructivism.
QSFL: Queens Science Fiction League.
RAP: Raymond A Palmer, the editor of Amazing who tolerated Shaver.
  His affinity of nutcase material gave rise to 'Palmerism', a
  generic term for catering to lowest common denominator. (the crap
  in the 'Antimatter' pages of OMNI is a good example of latter-day
  Palmerism).
stf: No-longer used contraction of 'scientifiction'. We now use 'SF'.

     Eney has a similar trashing of 'scientology', but this letter
has already run on far too long.
                                                Peter Trei
                                                oc.trei@cu20b

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 85 12:48:25 EST
From: Louis Steinberg <STEINBERG@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: two more "name that story" requests

Here are two short stories I'd like to get pointers to.  Please at
least CC me in the reply, as I am often weeks behind on reading
SF-LOVERS.  Thanks in advance to all.

1) Two agents for competing powers crashland on a primitive planet.
This planet has extremely dense air, so that the fairly primitive
cultures there have built human-powered aircraft (or maybe they are
just gliders?).  Key to the plot are the facts that neither agent
knows the local language, one agent (the protagonist) doesn't know
any linguistics but does know about airplanes, and the competing
agent does know a lot of linguistics.

2) Time travel has been invented, but you have to be REAL CAREFUL
back then or you will change the future.  Expeditions are mounted to
the past to hunt dinosaurs, but only after very careful study of the
particular dinosaur being hunted to make sure killing it won't have
major effects.  The protagonist is a klutz who panics, steps off the
approved path (a walkway somehow levitated off the ground?), kills a
butterfly, and goes back to his normal time to find much changed -
his first hint is when he sees signs with strange spellings.

Louis Steinberg
uucp: {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steinber
                               note no "g" - #&%'$# 8 char limit!  ^
arpa:   STEINBERG@RUTGERS

------------------------------

From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 29 Nov 85 14:52:00 GMT

> A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again --
> based on a society of all males.  They were humans; their
> ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them
> without women on some previously uninhabited planet.  The
> survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used
> for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to
> themselves.  The society had become primitive, and no longer
> understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and
> utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up.  A
> pretty interesting story was placed in this society.  Does this
> sound familiar to anyone?

A couple of people have suggested possible stories that meet the
above description (which I originally posted).  Thanks, but those
weren't the stories I was thinking of.  I finally found it by
looking through my back issues of Asimov's.  The story is "Full
Fathom Five My Father Lies", by Rand B. Lee, in IASFM for Feb. 16,
1981.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Dec 85 1036-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #451
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 451

Today's Topics:

                Books - Harrison & Shave Mysteries &
                        Boscure Book Pointers Requested,
                Miscellaneous - Chattacon 11 & Feminism & Aliens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: reed!kamath@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Kamath)
Subject: Jim diGriz
Date: 30 Nov 85 08:20:31 GMT

Interestingly enough, on the back cover of _The Stainless Steel Rat
for President_ and _The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You!_ it says:

"...Slippery Jim diGriz, the 30th century's..."

but on the front cover of _A Stainless Steel Rat is Born_ it says:

"The uncanny origin of the 25th century's most canny criminal!"

what's the buzz?

Between the ages of 17 and whenever he is in the other two, he
survived for 500 year? 8-)

BTW: Does anyone know if the original Stainless Steal Rat stories
were published by Bantam Books?

Also, does anyone know the third book in Michael Moorcock's "Eternal
Champion" trilogy? (The one that starts out with Erikose in the
Eternal Champion and continues with Count Urlick in The Silver
Worriors)

Thanks

Sean Kamath
{decvax,ihnp4,ucbcad}!tektronix!reed!kamath

------------------------------

From: hpda!on@caip.rutgers.edu (Owen Rowley)
Subject: Re: The "Shaver Mysteries"?
Date: 26 Nov 85 19:24:02 GMT

>From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>One of John W. Campbell's pet projects (along with dianetics and
>the Dean Drive) was, I believe, something called "The Shaver
>Mysteries". If I have that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct it!
>:-) In any case, though I know something about the other subjects,
>I don't know anything about these "Shaver Mysteries".  I can't
>recall if the word "Shaver" is a person's name or a generic noun,
>like "Egyptian". Anybody have some concise explanations of what
>this was about, and if interest in it has persisted to the current
>day among certain circles?

Its been a long time so my details may be sketchy (hopefully not too
inaccurate)

Richard Shaver was a Pulp writer who wrote several stories about his
adventures in a Vast underground cavern system, it was populated by
two races of people the Dero's (the Bad Guys) and the Terros (good
guys). Shaver wrote his stuff as if it were Fact but published it in
Pulps with lots of other fabulous fiction.  Ray Palmer , a UFO buff
of the 40's and 50's published the bulk of Shavers stuff in various
pulp magazines of his. Inner Worlds was one pulp that was primarily
devoted to Shavers material and other Hollow Earth material.

Basicly the Deros were using pre-deluge Hi tech mind manipulation
devices, left over from Atlantis or Mu to control the Surface World
folks (Us). Their (the Dero's) motives were chaotic evil in D&D
terms. Shaver encountered the Tero on a spelunking adventure and was
seduced by a lovely Tero lady, who spilled the beans to him about
all this underground intrigue. You see the Tero were the enemy of
the Dero and they used their psychic powers to counteract the Dero's
mischief.
   Shaver claimed that it was all true and maintained that posture
until his death. (apx 1974-5 I think?)  In his last years he got
into a new side line though, he would cut rocks in half with a rock
saw and photograph the grainy surface of the cut rock.  He claimed
that these rocks were actually remnants of a pre-diluvian
holographic storage system that was used to archive the wisdom of
the ancients.  His photos were usually crudely retouched to make the
images clearer.  It was all pretty sad really. I was close friends
with a woman who believed every word of it she would buy his
booklets and send him money to support his "research". Everything
bad that happened was the result of Dero interference. It was great
fun for paranoids.

I tried my best to make it brief!!
I hope this is what you were looking for!

Owen Rowley
{ucbvax|hplabs}!hpda!on

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Dec 85 19:39:07 PST
From: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: Obscure books

>From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
>... Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have yet to
>see.  Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA please
>respond. ...

I was also looking for "Triple Detente" long ago but could not find
it.  TD was an interesting book about three alien races governing
each other to prevent war.  (I know this is a fuzzy description.
You don't want a spoiler, do you?)  I read TD in high school and
also want to read it again.  I think your best bet is the used
bookstores.  I believe DAW published it.  I have not tried very hard
to find it.

Another book in a similar vein is "Conscious Interplanetary", author
forgotten.  A "Conscious" is like a doctorate degree given to
specially trained people.  These individuals are literally the
"conscious" of the human race as they judge whether a habitable
planet contains intelligent life.  If not, the humans move in and
wipe out all alien life.  If so, the planet is left alone.  This
proves to be an immense responsibility because of the moral versus
economic/population/political factors involved.  The adventures in
the book are quite entertaining.

I would appreciate pointers to either of the above books.

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  2 Dec 1985 08:45:29-PST
From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: CHATTACON 11 INFORMATION

    Here is information on CHATTACON 11, Chattanooga's Science
Fiction Convention held in January. This convention is getting
better ever year, I'm really excited about the art show for this
years convention. I'm going to be there, maybe I'll see you.

                                  Ken Cobb

           C H A T T A C O N   11   (JANUARY 17-19, 1986)

Guest of Honor:         James P. Hogan
Artist GOH:             Michael Whelan
Master of Ceremonies:   Wilson Tucker
Fan Artist GOH:         Danny Gill
Special Guest:          John Maddox Roberts
Other Guests:
                Robert Adams           Jerry Ahern
                Robert Asprin          Orson Scott Card
                Jack Chalker           C. J. Cherryh
                John M. Ford           Robert Jordan
                John Steakley          Brad Strickland
                Sharon Webb            Timothy Zahn

     This years CHATTACON will have an excellent Art show. Not only
will Michael Whelan (Artist GOH) display examples of his work, we
also have the following artists confirmed as guests:
     Doug Chaffee
     David A. Cherry
     Casper Cox
     Kelly Freas
     Danny Gill
     Dell Harris
     Val Lakey Lindahn
     Ron Lindahn
     Beth Willinger

     CHATTACON will once again be held at the READ HOUSE hotel.
Located in downtown Chattanooga at the corner of Broad Street and M.
L. King Blvd. For reservations call toll free (800) 251-6443. (in
Tennessee call (800) 572-7304 or locally (615) 266-4121.  The READ
HOUSE has 255 rooms, and lets not forget a Jacuzzi for CHATTACON's
use. (I like the Jacuzzi myself !!)

Membership includes all activities with the exception of the
Banquet. For more information or preregistration write to:

CHATTACON
P. O. BOX 921
HIXSON, TN 37343

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Nov 85 11:12 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars)

The following message excerpts prompted a very long response
(probably preachy) which I have edited down to the following
remarks.  I saved the original reply and will provide it to those
who happen to be interested in a non-digest discussion--which could
easily digress to non-science fiction topics!

>From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
>What Heinlein wrote for teenaged females in 1962 was appropriate
>*for the time*.  What it says is, "-Hey, the future isn't going to
>be all that different from the present; women will fill the same
>roles they always have, and (1962) males' assumptions of what those
>roles are will remain unchallenged-".

Not necessarily so.  Even uncritical readers (or listeners or
watchers, for those not old enough to read yet) notice differences
or contradictions in what they see and hear in real life and
fiction.  It is our responsibility as adults and parents to ensure
that the difference is there to detect!  But you are right in that,
women will fill the same roles they always have, *IF* we do nothing
to change it; if we do not show the change(s) and the reason(s)
behind it.  It starts at home, but cannot be limited to the home--it
must include all aspects of our lives and whom they touch directly
and indirectly.  I intend to either have Andy read Podkayne or read
it to him--and I expect to use it as a means and an opening to
questions, and/or comments from him both at the time and at some
future time.

>Well, I say, hey, this is *1985*, (in case you hadn't noticed :-),
>and women's roles *have* changed, and are continuing to change.  An
>uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school
>students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about women's
>roles.

Sorry, as much as motherly pride wants me to think that my son is
precocious, I really don't think he is.  I believe uncritical
readers and listeners do notice the differences.  Andy is only 7 has
seen (recently) the classic Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein
movies.  He remembered his dad and I talking about how the monster
did not die in the book they way he did in the movies.  Several
weeks later, he was asking why the monster died in one and not the
other.  That spawned a short discussion on the difference (at times)
between books and the movies they are made from.  More below.

>This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing.  I don't want to see
>reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men,
>too) have fought to eliminate for so long.

Sometimes, they don't ask questions--they say or do something which
says they have keyed in on the stereotype...then (preferably without
rancor, anger, excitement) 'you' say "not necessarily, Johnny.  Some
women chose those careers some don't.  Many women cook--but cooking
is not women's work, most chefs and restaurant cooks are men.  Do
you like to eat?  If you can't cook for yourself, you have to find
(and pay) someone to do it for you." Or something similar.  You have
to gear it to the individual's (age) level.  It means paying
attention, to what your children (or those children you influence)
are doing, reading, seeing, saying, etc.  Something we are
frequently too busy to be bothered with.  My theory is that 80% of a
child's unconcious attitudes and personality are formed before they
start school, and they are at the 95% point by the time they are 7
or 8 or 9.  The remainder comes slowly.  Concious changes to their
attitudes and personality come later, and can be significant--if
they are willing to expend the effort (I did some, when I was in
college--talk about EFFORT!)

>I graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then
>was still steering girls away from math.  What does Podkayne say?
>"-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do
>know math, don't let anyone know about it.  Men are such fragile
>creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-"

The only way to change adult attitudes easily, (see above) is while
they are still children.  I am a 1967 High School graduate from a
conservative (most likely) small farming/forest-industry-town school
(in Oregon).  The teachers and guidance people never tried to steer
me away from math and science (not that I remember, anyhow); but, I
do remember my father telling (ordering?) me to take four years of
math, science, and a foreign language in high school, and when more
than one level was available, the highest level offered in a class.
(Most of my classes were about 50-50 split, or higher on the girls
side--if off-balance.)  Any 'fun' classes (music, business, etc) had
to be taken instead of study hall.  I remember getting phone calls
for 3 consecutive summers telling me that I could not take my
proposed 7-course load for the following year--that I would have to
chose one course to be replaced with study hall.  Needless to say,
knowing my father's opinions, it was always the fun class which was
dropped!  Even if the school had tried to steer me away, my father's
(and mother's) influence would have been stronger than the school's.
(By the by, when I entered college, I was a geology-chemistry major
at a state engineering and science school.)

>This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men!

Yes, that's true; but, as we have all learned--real life is rarely
fair.  And I have run into my share of white and blue collar
workers, professors, and other professionals who literally or
figuratively pat me on the head and say "you are a nice girl, what
is your job at the military hospital (it's not); or you are a pretty
girl, but what can you possibly know about electrical engineering
and electronics let along communications theory or digital control
theory or what's wrong with your car or your yard tractor or ..."  I
don't even consider myself a feminist or militant, but I do get
angry and upset.  I do try to set each individual straight -
sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.  The children of today and the
future are our best hopes.  You don't convert people to a new way of
thought by being militant (my opinion--because I don't like someone
else's ideas forced down my own throat).

I'm sorry, it still came out longer than I had intended even with
the editing!

Feel free to flame to my 'home address', although I won't be able to
respond until after 9 or 10 Dec due to a business trip!

RTaylor@radc-multics
USnail: Branch P.O. Box 1241
        Rome, NY 13441

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 85 10:38:45 PST (Friday)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
From: Kurt <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>

>        There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of
>possible forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the
>structure of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in about
>the same way as the interactions of subatomic particles are.
>Basically you are *both* wrong. Living things from other planets
>would match neither of your ideas. Giant insects are highly
>unlikely for mechanical and physiological reasons, as are large,
>intelligent slimes. Tentacles *might* develop on "humanoids", but
>they would end up looking rather like monkeys' tails. A monolith or
>a beach ball would be a lousy form for anything except perhaps some
>sort of plant, and would be unlikely to be either mobile or
>intelligent.  Berserkers are *artificial*.

Aren't you making some rather sweeping assumptions about what sort
of environments life can arise in?  I think I agree that life forms
from essentially terran environments are likely to bear great
similarities to terran life, and may even have very close DNA
analogues.  However, that's about as far as I'm willing to go.
Consider the sulfur consuming life forms found in deep oceans, which
follow a totally new and previously unsuspected food chain based not
on solar but chemical energy (oh, solar way back, but fundamentally
different in that no photosynthesizing plants are part of the
chain).  Surely, with the limited set of environmental conditions we
have been able to examine, we are in no position to make any claims
about what life forms are likely to arise or become sentient.

With this lack of information, I'd also be unwilling to generalize
about any chance of overlap.  One can imagine a number of possible
cases where humans and aliens have no overlap at all except a need
survive and to reproduce.  There are also serious questions about
whether the human world-view may have any resemblance to one
developed by alien sentients, particularly those with vastly
different body structures.

Kurt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Dec 85 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #452
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 452

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Asimov & Farmer (2 msgs) &
                    Heinlein & Sucharitkul & Wolfe,
            Films - King Arthur & Battlefield Earth,
            Radio - Ruby,
            Miscellaneous - World Design Service

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: prostho plus
Date: 2 Dec 85 23:42:44 GMT

I have a copy of Protho Plus, Piers Anthony's series of stories
about a prosthodontist (a dentist who makes false teeth, more or
less) who is captured by aliens.  It is about a million times
funnier than the Xanth books.  I think that my copy was published by
Sphere, in Britain, in the mid-70's.  Really great, and someone
should reissue it.  There's been a lot of his old hack writing (as
opposed to new hack writing) reissued recently, especially by TOR,
but I haven't seen anything about Triple Detente or The Ring or
Mandroid or the ESP Worm.

Laurence Roberts
...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Nov 85 08:43 EST
From: "     Roz     " <RTaylor@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Immortality & Robots and Empire

SECOND PARAGRAPH HAS QUOTE FROM ROBOTS AND EMPIRE--Possible spoiler?

    I've been reading Robots and Empire, and love it--I have not
found it slow or dull or boring.  I am an unabashed Asimov Fan!  It
is not an adventure-type story, at least not in the way I associate
with Asimov's other robot novels and stories (I am a mystery buff,
too!).  I like the personality/character development the story
shows--including the insights into Daneel, Giskard, Gladia, D.G., et
al.  Granted, I don't always appreciate that kind of writing, and it
is not everyone else's 'cup of tea' either--but it seems to fit into
the Robots and Empire story line quite well, explains (at least to
me) quite a few things.  I am trying not to be too specific on
purpose--I don't want to be a "spoiler".  Another possible
explanation for the story not seeming slow to me, is that I have
only been able to read it in snatches of 5, 10 & 15 minute batches
(and I am NOT [repeat NOT] a speed reader).
    Although spacers are not immortal, I liked Gladia's exposition
(to D.G. when he advises her not to specifically mention her age)
                    ***Possible spoiler QUOTATION***

    "Would you like to have me make a speech and tell them exactly
what forty decades means?  Shall I tell them for how many years one
outlives the springtime of hope, to say nothing of friends and
acquaintances.  Shall I tell them of the meaninglessness of children
and family; of the endless comings and goings of one husband after
another, of the misty blurring of the informal matings between and
alongside; of the coming of the time when you've seen all you want
to see, and heard all you want to hear, and find it impossible to
think a new thought, of how you forget what excitement and discovery
are all about, and learn each year how much more intense boredom can
become?" [...] "I only know for certain how I myself feel, but I've
watched others dim as they aged; I've watched their dispositions
sour, and their ambitions narrow, and their indifferences broaden."
                          ***End QUOTATION***

    My grandmother is 96/97 years old; she had 8 daughters; she has
outlived 3 husbands and 4 of those daughters.  Several years ago,
shortly after the death of one of her daughters, we talked.  The
deaths of her friends, contemporaries, and elders bothered her, but
not nearly so much as the deaths of those younger than her.  She
could understand accidents and war (although she did not approve),
but ill health leading to death in someone younger than her
(especially her daughters) made her feel as if she were aging faster
than she felt whe should.  If I were near to her now, I would like
to ask her about the above quotation and get her opinion--I think
she would tend to agree.
    Needless to say, but I am enjoying Robots and Empire, for what
it is.
                                  Roz

Feel free to flame to my 'home address', although I won't be able to
respond until after 9 or 10 Dec due to a business trip!

RTaylor@radc-multics
USnail: Branch P.O. Box 1241
        Rome, NY 13441

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: Re: A Feast Unknown
Date: 2 Dec 85 20:57:13 GMT

Is/was there a Farmer book devoted solely to a modernized Tarzan? Or
was there such a book and it was incorporated into or rewritten to
become part of A FEAST UNKNOWN? I have a vague recollection of
reading a library copy of a book about a mad scientist recreating a
Tarzan-like person by putting a male baby into an environment where
he was raised by apes and had no contact with civilization until
adult. All I can recall about the book was that the mad scientist
lived on a pinnacle in the middle of a lake, and had the capability
to spy on/watch the proto-Tarzan and his interaction with the native
tribes (I think they all were imprisoned in the area somehow, maybe
by surrounding impassable cliffs). The only other thing I recall was
the scientist getting furious when the Tarzan-like boy engaged in
sexual experimentation with the young native girls, actions which
the scientist felt were "unbecoming" to the image he was trying to
inculcate... :-)

Will

------------------------------

From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman)
Subject: Re: A Feast Unknown (Lord Tyger)
Date: 3 Dec 85 03:32:16 GMT

>Is/was there a Farmer book devoted solely to a modernized Tarzan?

It's called Lord Tyger.  Set in the highlands of Gabon with dwarfs
playing the parts of the primates.

John Quarterman,
UUCP:  {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq
ARPA Internet and CSNET:  jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU,
    formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA

------------------------------

From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: JOB - Mini Review from a UK viewpoint
Date: 2 Dec 85 11:25:47 GMT

Very readable, quite entertaining. I haven't read much RAH recently;
this was better than I was lead to expect.

Needs a strong-minded editor to compress the first half.

One alternate universe is much like another.  Shouldn't Alec have
noticed environmental differences? (More/less atmospheric pollution,
etc.)

Born-again Christianity isn't such a big deal here - this makes the
discussions in the first half pretty boring.  Perhaps they could
have been Irish Protestant and Catholic? (But this would have made
it all too serious?)

Heaven/Hell sequence is good fun.  Makes good play of the fact that
even Heaven must be pretty bad if the inhabitants don't live up to
their surroundings.  (There goes the neighbourhood!)

Niven/Pournelle did Hell much better in Inferno (recommended).

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: sucharitkul
Date: 2 Dec 85 23:42:44 GMT

I've read all of Sucharitkul's books besides the Alien Swordmaster.
I didn't think the Aquiliad was that great.  It and Mallworld both
present The problem of his humor.  They're very funny, but they
never make you actually laugh out loud.  Strange.  His books are not
stocked every- where, but a good sf bookstore should have the
Aquiliad.

Laurence Roberts
...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts)
Subject: Gene Wolfe
Date: 2 Dec 85 23:42:44 GMT

How's about some new Gene Wolfe?  There's supposedly a mass-market
hardcover of Free Live Free out now, but I haven't been to a store
recently.  Anything more about the opera he was going to do with
Sucharitkul as composer?  And just what is Castle of the Otter?

Laurence Roberts
...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: KING ARTHUR: THE YOUNG WARLORD
Date: 30 Nov 85 00:00:58 GMT

                   KING ARTHUR: THE YOUNG WARLORD
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review: Occasionally interesting, episodic story
     of King Arthur treats him as an historical figure rather than
     as a legend.  Often it feels a little sugary, like a children's
     TV series.

     To start with, I am not sure this is even a movie in the usual
sense.  It may be just episodes of a British TV series cobbled
together for the videocassette market.  It is not about the
legendary Arthur.  There is no witchcraft or wizardry.  Instead, it
is about a chieftain who wants to unite his neighbors against common
enemies.  To some extent it does try to explain how the legends got
started.  As an object lesson, he has four neighboring chieftains
each push with one hand on a rock and it moves enough that he can
pull out a sword on which the rock was resting.  None had been able
to withdraw the sword himself.  When they allowed Arthur to organize
them, Arthur could withdraw the sword.  This could easily be a
de-embellishment of the story of the sword in the stone.

     The film itself is very episodic and could easily be edited
from episodes of a good TV series (does anyone know if Oliver Tobias
starred in a British TV series about King Arthur around 1975?).
Actually the show was stolen by Brian Blessed as Mark of Cornwall, a
dangerous and troublesome ally of Arthur's.  Of course Blessed has
never been in a role in which he didn't steal the show.  As a film,
rate this a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 30 Nov 1985 23:55:08-PST
From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste DTN522-2590 CX01-1/P23
From: NERMAL::WOOD)
Subject: Battlefield Earth

I also had a FYI comment on the "Battelfield Earth" rating.  I have
avoided reading the book for some time because its thickness was too
intimidating.  However, if the book is really that good I'll make an
effort.  I wonder how good a job they are doing on the movie! Yes,
movie.  They cast a male and female lead locally last spring. (They
had to be blond and short Male 5'7" and Female 5'2" for working with
special effects props.)  They supposedly began filming in the Summer
down around Pueblo, Colorado.  Isn't it nice that someone actually
films on location once in a while.  I really get sick of seeing
Wyoming mountains in movies set in Colorado.

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 30 Nov 1985 23:55:08-PST
From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste DTN522-2590 CX01-1/P23
From: NERMAL::WOOD)
Subject: SF Radio

A lot of SF fans are into animated stuff and movies.  Has anyone
else heard of other media.  Specifically, I was wondering if anyone
out there has heard of "Ruby", the adventures of a Galactic Gumshoe.
This is a radio serial and is, in my opinion, a lot of fun.  It has
all sorts of nasty and nice aliens, great puns, some mind games, and
a great heroine.  Stereotyped detective but not necessarily
masculine.

I first heard it on a local public radio station and have since
bought my own copies of the stories "Ruby" and "Ruby II" from ZBS
Foundation

RR #1, Box 1201
Fort Edward, NY 12828
(518)-695-6409

I am curious if anyone else does science fiction of this nature and
if there are any other really good stories out.  I sort of like
having the radio sounds because it leaves a little more for me to
imagine than a picture would.  It is almost as good as reading in
that respect.

------------------------------

From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin )
Subject: World-design service
Date: 2 Dec 85 20:29:22 GMT

The following is from the Winston-Salem (NC) Journal of Sunday, 17
Nov 85. I thought SF-Lovers would find it of interest:

PROFESSOR USES SCIENCE TO DESIGN WORLDS TO WRITERS' SPECIFICATIONS
By Frank Tursi, Journal Reporter

Guilford College -- It is written that the world was created in
seven days. Sheridan Simon could probably do the job in half the
time.

In all fairness, though, it should be pointed out that Simon has
help.  He does his creating with a personal computer.

Simon, a physics professor at Guilford College, designs worlds for
science-fiction writers. Most are young, budding novelists who don't
know enough science to create their own fictional planets. For a few
dollars, Simon will do it for them, making sure that the planets fit
the writers' specifications and are scientifically accurate.

"The real pros know how to go about it and don't need me," explains
Simon, a balding and soft-spoken man, as he sits behind his
cluttered desk in the basement of King Hall on the college campus.
"I would be delighted if Isaac Asimov called, but that's not going
to happen."

Since most of his clients are young, Simon keeps his prices low. For
simple jobs, like figuring out how long a day would be on an
imaginary planet, Simon charges about $5. His fees are higher for
more complicated projects that could take three or four days. The
most he has charged is $30.

"This is a hobby with me. I'm not getting rich off it," he said.

It all started four years ago when Simon, 38, ran an ad in "Locus"
magazine, a small trade journal for science-fiction writers. Simon
is an avid reader of science fiction and has published a few
science-fiction short stories. He also has some unpublished book
manuscripts stuffed in a desk at home.

"I got to thinking: 'Look, I know all about the science of this. Why
not try my hand at designing planets,'" he said. "But I really
didn't think anything would come of it."

Since the ad ran, Simon has received about one request a month. Some
have come from Australia and Hong Kong. Most, though, are from
writers in the United States.

Simon hands across a recent letter. It's from a prison inmate in
California who needs some help with a planet that he plans to
include in his novel. Included in the letter is a crude drawing of a
planet about the size of Jupiter. A couple of moons are shown
revolving about it.

"I don't know what the guy's in for," Simon said, "but
science-fiction writing has to be less socially damaging."

Most requests have been for descriptions of planets around the Alpha
Centauri system. The star system is the closest to Earth and one of
the best known.

Then there are the unusual. Simon remembered the man who sent along
the last scene of his novel. It had the two main characters standing
on a beach watching the sun set. It sank slowly below the horizon,
then rose again within a few minutes.

"He said he just had to have his novel end that way," Simon said. "I
wracked my brain over that one for a week, trying to think if it
could be caused by some optical illusion."

Finally a solution dawned. What you have, Simon wrote back, is a
prolate spheroid. When a star, like our sun, revolves slowly, it
takes a nice round shape. The faster it spins, the more it flattens
out. If it rotates very quickly, say every 20 minutes or so, it
looks very much like a football. Physicists call such an object a
prolate.

"So what you had here was a star rotating like a bat out of hell,"
Simon said. "It spun like an end-over-end football as it travelled
across the sky, and it looked like it rose just after it set." The
explanation satisfied the writer.

Simon admits that he often steps over the line that separates
science from fiction, but that is half the fun. "Just think of the
uncertainties of the weather, and we live on this planet," he said.
"So it can get very speculative.

"What I'm doing shows that science is interesting and it's fun," he
said. "It's not just some guys in white coats standing over bubbling
test tubes."

Simon has yet to see any of his creations in print. "but it's just a
matter of time," he said. "Sooner or later it's bound to happen."
***End of article***

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Dec 85 1024-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #453
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 453

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bradbury & Dean & Kurtz (2 msgs) &
                     Varley & Nebula Awards & A Request,
             Plays - The Zombie,
             Miscellaneous - Feminism (2 msgs) & Immortality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Bradbury
Date: 03 Dec 85 13:59:26 PST (Tue)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

Hi folks.
        Unnoticed by many, Ray Bradbury has gone and published his
first novel in many many years ( when did October People/Something
Wicked ...  first come out ? ).  The reason that the basic
sf/fantasy types haven't bumped into it yet is because it's not an
sf/fantasy type book.
        For the most part 'Death is a Lonely Business' is a
detective novel, altough much of the book contains Bradbury's
haunting images and plot details.  The story takes place in the long
gone Vennis, California, of the last 1940s.  The Old Pier was still
existent, the canals where clean and full of sea water, and the red
trolly cars still raced up and down the boulevards.  The story is
that of a young writer, a man who remains nameless throughout the
book.
        One by one, people are dieing in seemingly accidental ways
all about the city.  Each of these people are unusual or even
wonderful in some very mundane fashion, and some are known to the
author.  He believes that the death were not accidental, and
convinces a detective friend that he may be correct.  I will not
detail the rest, but the story is NOT typical murder mystery stuff.
        The characterisations, of the author, of the old-style
gritty but compassionate police detective, and all the rest just
spring to life in the style that only Bradbury can achieve.  The
images of Old Vennis, of the pier and the beaches, of the dark and
fog filled nighttime street, wow, it all just hops of the page.
        In short, this is a truely marvelous book.
        So, OK, I'm playing this book up a lot, right ?  Well, OK,
so where most of you people got your start on Heinlein and his ilk,
I started on Bradbury, and from there moved on to Clarke and the
Hard Stuff.  Bradbury left a very deep impression on me.  Most of
his work is in short story form, which can keep a boy's attention
much better than a novel.  The stories dealt with ideas and images,
with feelings, not with blazing star ships and heros of a different
sort than you will find in Greenville, Illinois.
        ( My father gave me Bradbury's 'The Halloween Tree' when I
was real little.  How many boys know anymore about the real magic of
a Halloween night ?  I know one book I'm going to give my son when
he gets old enough. )
        In addition to my initial teething on Bradbury, I grew up in
Vennis, at a time when the trollies and canals still had a bit of
life to them, and the new pier ( the one with that great old
merry-go-round ) was still in one piece.  This book brought back
that memories and magic of that time for me.
        So, yes, for me more than most this was a special book, and
I think that the rest of you unfortunates that had to grow up
elsewhere should take a look at it too.  Even if you've never liked
Bradbury, this book may really change your mind.
        OK, I'm done.  Flames and discussion to the net are
welcomed.

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irvine

------------------------------

From: ut-ngp!stacie@caip.rutgers.edu (Stacie D. McGill)
Subject: "Secret Country"
Date: 4 Dec 85 15:25:03 GMT

Does anyone know when the sequel to "Secret Country" by Pamela Dean
is coming out?

Thanks

Stacie McGill
stacie@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Monday,  2 Dec 1985 07:05:31-PST
From: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1  223-7046)
Subject: Katherine Kurtz

Randall Neff stated that he recently talked with Katherine Kurtz and
she said that the third book of the "Bishop's Heir" trilogy has gone
to Del Rey.  What has happened to the second book?  When is this due
out?  Or is it already out somewhere?

Waiting to hear.....

Gita Devi

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adsk@caip.rutgers.edu (David S Kerven)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz
Date: 3 Dec 85 19:39:38 GMT

Yes, Gita the book, The King's Justice, is out in hard cover and can
be found at many book stores.  I personally purchased my copy at a
Barnes & Nobles, but I have seen at several other shops in my area.
                               David S. Kerven

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Comments Anyone?
Date: 2 Dec 85 18:00:47 GMT

> The Gaean trilogy is good indeed but it's nothing compared to what
> he used to do (Ophiuchi Hotline for example).  I'm a bit
> disappointed that my favorite authors, Varley and Silverberg, have
> started writing this "heroic" stuff.  The best part about Gaea is
> the scenery, like the opening pages of the third book (Demon).
> The climax of the story I forgot as soon as I read it.

If you don't like quest books, the Gaea trilogy will disappoint you.
Technically, though, the Gaea books are better than his earlier
books. I was quite disappointed in Ophiuchi because Varley hadn't
yet learned how to carry the intensity of his shorter works into the
longer lengths. Titan had this problem as well to some degree, but
Wizard and Demon were quite good.  Millenium is also a good novel,
but if you want classic Varley, stick to the shorter stuff.

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton)
Subject: Nebula Awards Report
Date: 30 Nov 85 22:57:22 GMT

As many of you know, the contest for the annual Nebula Awards is
much like a horse race. Unlike the Hugo Awards, which are based on
votes cast by fans attending the annual world science fiction
convention, the Nebulas are voted on only by professionals in
science fiction/fantasy. During the year, nominations trickle in
from members of the Science Fiction Writers of America.  The awards
are given by SFWA, and only members of SFWA can vote. SFWA's
secretary for the Nebula report counts the nominations and
periodically mails a tally to SFWA members: that's the horse race
part of it. At the end of the year, all the works with at least
three recommendations are listed on a preliminary ballot; active
SFWA members vote, and the top five vote-getters are put on the
final ballot, along with a single work in each category added at the
option of the Nebula Jury. (The Nebula Jury this year consists of
Michael Swanwick, chairman; and Pat Cadigan, Orson Scott Card,
Michael Cassutt, Robert Frazier, Marj Krueger and Lewis Shiner.)
Active members then submit a ranked vote on the final ballot. The
winner in each category is given the Nebula Award at the annual
banquet. The 1985 Nebulas will be presented in April 1986 in San
Francisco.

The catogories are: Novel (40,000 words or more); Novella (17,500 -
39,999); Novelet (7,500 - 17499); and Short Story (7,499 or fewer).

As of November 28, this is how the horse race stands. The leaders
are:

Novel: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card
Novella: SAILING TO BYZANTIUM by Robert Silverberg
    (Asimov's, February)
Novelet: THE JAGUAR HUNTER by Lucius Shepard (F&SF, May)
Short Story: THE FRINGE by Orson Scott Card (F&SF October)

By pure coincidence, Orson Scott Card is the NAR secretary this
year. The full Nebula reports are available on my non-Unix BBS,
Science Fiction Writers' Network, at 919-922-3308. Scott Card
updates the reports weekly. I will continue to post a list of the
leaders on sf-lovers periodically if there is an interest in it. The
full report is quite long, so I'll spare you.

By the way, ENDER'S GAME is one of the finest novels I've read in a
while. The premise is not a new one now: A wargames simulation that
is much more than it appears to be. But Card's writing style is
disciplined and highly readable. And the tenderness and brutality
with which he handles his characters can be quite moving. Right now,
hardcover only, TOR. The paperback is due in early 1986, along with
the sequel, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD.

------------------------------

From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley)
Subject: Can't remember book or author
Date: 2 Dec 85 21:58:23 GMT

Can anyone identify the book I'm about to describe inadequately?  I
don't know author or title (unless the title is _The Survivors_ or
something like that -- 20% accurate guess), but it was in print in
paperback by 1968, when I read and loved it.

A space liner is hit by pirates.  The survivors are set down on an
inhospitable planet, where most of them die right off.  The rest,
gradually, over generations, become adjusted, with the help of some
little telepathic ground- hogs they carry around to use as
telephones.  Eventually, they build or steal a ship, or are rescued,
or something.

Sounds pretty bad, but I remember it as good.  Thank you all.

                                Peace and Good!,
                                    (Fr.) John Woolley

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: THE ZOMBIE
Date: 29 Nov 85 23:59:43 GMT

                             THE ZOMBIE
             A dinner theater review by Mark R. Leeper

     For some time I'd been planning to see what the local dinner
theaters in my area were like.  When the Dam Site Theater in Tinton
Falls, New Jersey, had a horror-comedy called THE ZOMBIE right
around Evelyn's birthday, the combination seemed unbeatable.

     The play itself was the creation of Tim Kelly, who has done
quite a number of stage plays tinged with horror, including a
version of THE UNINVITED, TERROR BY GASLIGHT, a non-musical SWEENEY
TODD, and FRANKENSTEIN.  THE ZOMBIE is itself an enjoyable stage
play with a story that would have made a bad horror film.

     Dr. Samedi lives on the edge of Florida's Okefenokee Swamp and
makes a modest living turning locals into zombies to be used on
local farms as cheap labor.  The audience seemed to think that this
was a comic touch, to use zombies as slaves.  In fact, this is the
traditional use to which zombies were put.  The plot itself is more
tightly written than it at first would seem and some of what
initially seem like absurd coincidences seem a little less so by the
end of the film.

     The local production was fun but a little less than
professional.  The chief villain was played by Jack Ryan, who uses
the stage name of Jake de Fayke.  The name is funnier than the
actor, who projects better than he acts.  In fact, the most
interesting acting was in two of the lesser roles.  Kaye Ernst was
the best of the lot with a marvelous range of comic facial
expressions.  Bob Koerner had a most undemanding role as a catatonic
zombie, and was too young for the role he played, but as the chief
horror element he was not too shabby.  One thing that did bother me
was that nobody in the production seemed to know the subject matter.
As playwright Kelly knew, one of the central figures of a voodoo
cult was Baron Samedi.  But the name is pronounced SOM-i-DEE or
SOM-DEE.  (It is the French word for "Saturday.")  The cast insisted
on pronouncing the name sa-MEE-dee, which is entirely wrong.

     THE ZOMBIE was a pleasant evening and Dam Site serves a good
meal, but the story could have been better.  Rate the play a 0 on
the -4 to +4 scale.
                                        Mark R. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: Tue 3 Dec 85 12:41:58-CST
From: Anthony Aristar <AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA>
Subject: Feminism & SF: Comments from a Non-American Mole

It's been a fascinating exercise to read the postings on feminist
science-fiction.  This is not because I'm particularly interested in
reading any of it, but because of the style of those postings.  Of
negative comments there were none... Of support there was much...
I've come away from the discussion feeling that it is "simply not
done", as the British would say, to mention anything which can be
construed as anti-feminist in the good US of A.  Now, this is an
interesting situation in a group of SF readers, for one would
predict that, of all people, such a group would be more aware than
most of the rise and fall of ideologies--though earlier we used to
call them religions--of which feminism is but one in a very long
string, along with Mithraism, Manichaeism, the Albigensian Heresy,
Christianity and Communism.  I mean, hell, maybe life *isn't* fair,
unpleasant thought as that may be.  It doesn't seem at all
unthinkable to me that men and women are inherently different, with
different abilities, specialized by evolution, because it works
better for the race that way.  And I am *really* tired of reading SF
and Fantasy where 5' 6" females with large chest and a low centre of
gravity slaughter 7 foot tall Goliaths in hand to hand combat.  Life
isn't like that in the here and now, has never been so in the past,
and logically isn't going to be so in the future unless we go in for
genetic engineering on a large scale, not even in the neck of the
woods that I was born in, Africa, where females, God knows, are not
exactly wimps.  Regards to all.

------------------------------

From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht)
Subject: Re: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars)
Date: 2 Dec 85 18:51:01 GMT

>>An uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school
>>students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about
>>women's roles.  This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing.  I don't
>>want to see reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes,
>>I mean men, too) have fought to eliminate for so long.  I
>>graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then was
>>still steering girls away from math.  What does Podkayne say?
>>"-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do
>>know math, don't let anyone know about it.  Men are such fragile
>>creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-"
>
> What are you going to do?  Remove the book from the shelves?
> Over my dead body!

I agree!, fact is, the whole argument is stupid.  Virtually all
literature reflects to some degree the attitudes of the time, not
just science fiction and not just a few authors.  To restrict
reading to books that reflect "proper" attitudes for today is
censorship just as surely as books that others find morally
offensive.  Sad, for to do so is to produce a sterile environment
when surrounded by riches.  Rather, realize that fiction of twenty
years ago is just as historical in nature as greek or victorian
writings but simply less far removed.  Myself, had I kids would
certainly rather teach them to use their brains rather than feed
them pablum, narrow vision, and have them sit on them.  Teach your
kids convictions through the strength of your own instead of trying
to change the past to reflect the way you think it should have been.

David Albrecht

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: Immortality
Date: 2 Dec 85 13:52:14 GMT

KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA writes:
>So if no-one stops you doing it, it's obvious that the guy died
>somewhere along the way, and your joke goes a little sour.
>
>He can't die.  He's immortal.

        Okay, okay. So I messed up my definitions. You have
naturally assumed I meant 'classic' immortality - i.e. cannot die,
no matter what. My definition of immortal is a little more
'plausible' (please note the quotes) in that the guy will live
forever "barring accidents". If you dropped a safe on him he'd still
end up lightly killed (At least it's better than, er, - It's not
better than anything at all, is it? Er, no.) Please assume this in
any further ramblings I may put out. And what do you mean 'he might
enjoy it'? :-)

                        R. Ramsay

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 85 0902-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #454
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 454

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anderson & Carver & Chalker &
                       Dickson & Harrison & King &
                       Kurtz & Wilhelm & Thieve's World &
                       Footfall,
               Films - The Quiet Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ritcv!krf7527@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith Fieldhouse)
Subject: Time Patrol
Date: 5 Dec 85 00:33:12 GMT

I'm looking for a list of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories.  The
two that I've read (which are found in a mass market paperback book
called, I believe, _Time Patrol(men?)_) seemed to indicate that more
stories existed.  Also I remember seeing a SF Book Club book that
had other stories but I don't remember what they were.  If anyone
knows of others please let me know where I might find them.

By the way, one of the stories in the above mentioned book, "The
Sorrow of Odin the Goth" was very good and I recommend it.

Thanks,

Keith Fieldhouse
..rochester!ritcv!krf7527

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE INFINITY LINK by Jeffrey A. Carver
Date: 2 Dec 85 15:13:58 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "THE INFINITY LINK is a compelling tale of scientific discovery as
  the men and women of a secret government project race to contact
  mysterious beings from the far reaches of space. It is a tense
  tale of political intrigue as rival powers fight to control the
  discovery.

  And it is the moving, compelling saga of a love that shattered
  time and space, of a young woman caught in a telepathic computer
  link with these ancient voyagers, whose stragne odyssey changes
  forever the future of Earth.

  Combining visionary scientific speculation with passionate human
  characters, THE INFINITY LINK confirms Jeffrey Carver as one of
  the most remarkable new science fiction talents of the decade."

I'm not sure I would have purchased this book based on the cover.
Sagas of love that shatter time and space don't interest me, but a
friend loaned me the book and recommended it highly. I enjoyed the
book very much and consider it one of the best I've read this year.
I plan to get my own copy of the book to keep.

There's a lot more going on than the cover indicates. The main
thread has to do with a young college student, Mozy, who is
participating part-time in a project having something to do with
computers and transmitting thoughts across great distances (she
really doesn't know much more about the project than this). Other
plot lines include the project manager, who knows a lot more about
the project but is still being kept in the dark regarding military
aspects; a news reporter who gets a lead about this secret project
and its possible implications; and scientists and engineers on a
space satellite who want to find out more about the project they are
helping and who want to make the information public.

This is an excellent book about first contact with an alien culture.
The characters are realistic, the technology is believable, and
everything moves along at just the right pace.  I give the book my
highest rating, 4 stars.

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Immortality vs. love, Dragonlord's reply thereto
Date: 3 Dec 85 01:18:53 GMT

> {Concerning the Well World Series}
>P.S. Can anyone out there name, for twenty points, the ten longest
>lived characters in the Well World Universe?

  Off the top of my head I can name the following characters with
remarkably long life-spans. They are, in order of longevity (with
allowances for my memory):

1. Nathan Brazil -- has outlived two incarnations of the universe.
   That has to qualify for masterclass Methuselah.

2. Sergei Ortega -- about a thousand years in Zone. He may FEEL
   older than Brazil.

3. Gilgram Zinder -- about 740 years

4. Mavra Chang -- about 725 years (up until the end of `Twilight at
   the Well of Souls')

5. Nikki Zinder -- about 715 years (depends on what you call living)

6. Obie -- about 705 years

7. Wu Julee/Kally Tonge -- 170-200 years

8. Vardia Diplo 1260/Nova -- also 170-200 years

9. Vardia Diplo 1260/Czillian -- not sure but a long time, as
   Czillians reproduce by fission and the resulting `offspring' are
   exact copies of the `parent'. This one could fit anywhere below
   Serge Ortega.

10. Diviner and the Rel, possibly? I seem to recall something about
    their species being naturally long-lived.

  Most of these times are based on a casual statement somewhere that
Mavra and Obie spent about 700 years traveling between `Quest for
the Well of Souls' and `The Return of Nathan Brazil'.

Dave Lewis    Loral Instrumentation   San Diego
sdcc6 ---\     gould9 --\
ihnp4 ---->-->!sdcc3 ---->--->!loral!dml  (uucp)
sdcrdcf -/     sdcsvax -/

------------------------------

From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: The Final Encyclopaedia by Gordon R.Dickson
Date: 4 Dec 85 22:52:46 GMT

Quickie non-spoiler review (because someone asked):

The book picks up about 100 years after most of the Dorsai books
(e.g. Soldier Ask Not, Lost Dorsai).  The hero is Hal Mayne, raised
on earth by a Dorsai, a Friendly, and an Exotic.  That in itself
should tell you what the theme of the novel is: Hal's mission is to
unify the splinter cultures.

(Digression: for those who have not read any of the Dorsai novels.
In this universe, there are about a dozen populated planets, no
known non-human sentients.  The planets have specialized in areas of
expertise: Dorsai produces the best mercenaries in human history;
the Friendly worlds produce fanatically religious cannon fodder (and
statisticians); the Exotic worlds produce psychologists and
"psycho-historians".  Earth is the last refuge of generalists.  To
further its goals, Earth has produced "The Final Encyclopaedia", an
orbital repository of all human knowledge, possibly capable of
putting it all together to come to surprising truths.)

Previous Dickson novels have concentrated on the Dorsai and the
Exotics.  In this book, the hero spends a great deal of time with
the Friendlies.  The Friendlies have always been the least appealing
of the splinter cultures because of their unyielding fanatic faith.
However, Dickson does a decent job of showing their noble side and
their essentialness to the human race.

The book is probably too long and telegraphs a few things that are
supposed to be big revelations in the last few chapters.  It is
almost certain that there will be one more book to follow this one
(isn't that always the way?) but it really feels as if one more book
will finish things off.  Before that book is written, however, I
suspect that we will see other books that take place a good deal
earlier.  The Childe Cycle (which is what the series is officially
called) clearly began from events that took place around 1300 A.D.
and I have heard rumours that Dickson will be writing those books
next.  This makes sense -- there really is only one more book that
can take place in the time of the Dorsai, and Dickson will want to
cover all the bases in the past before he writes the big she-bang
ending in the future.

                        Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN by Harry Harrison
Date: 2 Dec 85 15:29:15 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "In the auspicious annals of crime, chicanery and
  counterespionage, one name towers above all the rest -- "Slippery
  Jim" diGriz, the fabled outlaw known and feared as The Stainless
  Steel Rat! Now, the canny, untold origins of the 25th century's
  most canny criminal can at last be revealed: A Stainless Steel Rat
  is Born.

  This final volume in the saga of James diGriz explores his humble
  beginnings as a petty criminal on the backward planet of Bit
  O'Heaven, and his rapid rise to the most wanted man on a dozen
  worlds. And it contains the never-before-told story of the fabled
  archcriminal known as The Bishop, who tutored young Jim in the
  higher arts of crime and gave him his legendary nickname. A
  rousing, rollicking, often touching tale, A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS
  BORN is a stirring portrait of a man who learned to laugh at the
  laws that bind ordinary men."

If you're not interested in reading how Slippery Jim got into crime
as a toddler, don't worry: the story starts out on Jim's 18th
birthday, and he's already up to robbing banks. Jim tells the story
himself, and he does divulge a few anecdotes about his earlier
activites. But he concentrates on explaining how he met The Bishop
and managed to leave Bit O'Heaven.

This story doesn't have the level of technological sophistication
that the others do, but this is in keeping with the theme of Jim
getting started in serious crime (and on a somewhat backward
planet). Like other Stainless Steel Rat novels, this one moves
swiftly. It makes for a nice hour or two diversion. I give it 2.5
stars (good).

Duane Morse     ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

Date: Thu 5 Dec 85 13:18:29-PST
From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: RE: King/Bachman/Thinner

Now that I've read the Bachman books, it occurs to me my previous
review left a good deal to be desired.  However, I won't belabor the
point.  I will, however, add that when I said Thinner was "typical
King (er...um I mean Bachman)" Thinner was the only Bachman work I'd
read.  Thinner WAS typical King (a story that didn't work, overly
wordy, supernatural horror, with a few very nice spots), but not
necessarily typical Bachman.  I can't see how anyone could read
Thinner and not know for a fact that it was written by King.
Personally, my feeling is that Bachman didn't have a sudden death
when a paper published the story.  Rather he commited suicide.
Thinner's cover might as well have read:
                        I AM STEVEN KING
That can't be said of all of the other Bachman books
I am Bob Sheleg

------------------------------

From: aicchi!prs@caip.rutgers.edu (Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz
Date: 5 Dec 85 05:30:47 GMT

>From: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1)
>Randall Neff stated that he recently talked with Katherine Kurtz
>and she said that the third book of the "Bishop's Heir" trilogy has
>gone to del Rey.  What has happened to the second book?  When is
>this due out?  Or is it already out somewhere?

I recently saw and ad for it (I think it was in Asimov's). It is
called

"The King's Justice"
                                Paul R. Schmidt
                                ...!ihnp4!aicchi!prs

------------------------------

From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 3 Dec 85 16:07:18 GMT

rhw9906@wucec2.UUCP (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr) writes:
>  On the subject of cloning societys, anybody ever read "Where Late
>the Sweet Birds Sang" by Kate Wilheim(?)? It was a VERY good
>treatment of a society set up by cloning, and included the loss of
>originality/creativity in the clones.

Pardon me, but I thought "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" was
perfectly awful.  A micro plot summary: first half: clones are
superior; second half: clones are inferior.  The clones failed in
the second half in the same way they triumphed in the first.  Either
half alone was plausible; the combination was not.

Frank Adams
ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Multimate International
52 Oakland Ave North    E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (showard)
Subject: Re: Thieves' World: bah!
Date: 3 Dec 85 18:51:20 GMT

chabot@miles.DEC (L.S. Chabot)  writes:
>YUCK.  I've bought every one so far, and this is absolutely the
>last.  From now on, if any more come out, I'll have this blind
>spot.  I'm sure that some will call me "Fool!", because they don't
>read this kind of stuff anyway; and I'm sure that there are still
>the Faithful.  If there are still Faithful reading my posting who
>haven't bought it yet, I say, "Be warned!"
>
>I've had trouble in the past with, oh, say, sustaining interest in
>#2, or with an occasional story in a volume (hey, I never expected
>perfection), but never have I before experienced such boredom with
>a whole volume.  Well, the cover has lots of pretty colors, and
>metallic lettering.  Practically no eyes at all, though, let alone
>people without eyelids (it's just not the same without those folks
>without eyelids :-) ).  It's snowing here, and this ought to make
>pretty flames.

  Actually, the books took a sharp downward turn with the Beysib
invasion. Up to that point, each book had a new writer or two and
the tie-ins between stories were fairly minor (sort of like cameo
appearances).  Since the invasion, however, there seems to be a
greater plot line which all the writers must follow.

  Anyway, I stopped with the last one, which seemed to take forever
to read.  I also had to keep referring back to previous volumes to
find out who these characters were and what they were talking about.

  The first book is still the best.  Have you seen that there is a
similar series planned to deal with wizards?  That sounds like it
would be a lot harder, unless the editor(s) established an overall
scheme of How Magic Works and a code for How Much You Can Tell The
Reader About How Magic Works.

Steve Howard, ...udenva!showard

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Date: 2 Dec 85 23:00:40 GMT

I did not find sex in "Footfall" either gratuitous or unnesessary,
it just was THERE! The sex scenes were suggested more than actually
graphicly depicted.

Survivalist group was not absolutely necessary, but did provide a
view of what the populos was doing without corroding the book
without the lengthy actionless narratives.

Hi tech? what hi tech???

As for coincedences - they DO happen....

Yes, this book is not up to the standards set by the earlier
Niven-Pournelle colaborrations. But it was entertaining, well
thought out technically, well paced and a rather pleasant read. On
the scale of -4 to 4 I'd give it 1. That is, do not buy hard-cover,
buy the paper-back. Don't expect a masterpiece....

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 3 Dec 85 05:45:00 GMT

Sorry, but I happen to agree with stever@cit-vax.ARPA; The Quiet
Earth is an excellent film. And most especially, a breath of fresh
air for a Science Fiction film--no ILM mega-effects, no aliens, no
galactic empires, just a good, solid story, well presented. The
story builds quite nicely, catches you up in it. Characters actually
have a chance to be people instead of just cartoon caricatures. As
far as the "science" in it is concerned, I didn't have a problem
with it--science isn't my main concern in speculative fiction, the
storyline and characters are, just as they are in any genre.  I
thought the acting was great, the direction was great, the
cinematography was great, and the sound track was great. I liked it
enough to go see it again, and liked it just as much the second time
around (except for the Friday night crowd that didn't understand how
to watch a nice, quiet film-- the first time I saw it was on a
Monday afternoon, and the audience then was much more
sophisticated). Anyway, I highly recommend seeing the film, but
don't go expecting to see the "traditional" Hollywood "SciFi" type
film (the film was made in New Zealand)--go expecting to see a good
film.  It will touch you.

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780!dianeh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 85 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #455
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 455

Today's Topics:

                Books - Anthony & Bradbury & Card &
                        Dick (2 msgs) & Heinlein (3 msgs) &
                        Mono Sex Societies (2 msgs) & Book Request,
                Radio - X Minus One,
                Television - Star Trek & The New Twilight Zone (2 msgs),
                Miscellaneous - Reviews and Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (William Swan)
Subject: Re: Obscure books (Chthon)
Date: 6 Dec 85 19:57:52 GMT

ivanlan@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>anthony's first or second novel was called 'chthon.'  it was about
>*someone* kidnapped from earth....

Whoa! If this is "Chthon" of Hvee, the minionettes, chimera, and the
god of the underworld (caverns), you've got the wrong description!

If this is another "Chthon", could you tell me about it?

William Swan  {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 6 Dec 85 16:27:00 GMT

The time travel story is "A Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury.  It
can be found in the GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN anthology, among other
places.  I think it was one of Bradbury's better short stories, one
where he restrained himself from crossing the line between sentiment
and sentimentality.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: ihu1e!welsch@caip.rutgers.edu (l.a. welsch)
Subject: Enders Game - The Story ** Comment and Spoiler **
Date: 7 Dec 85 16:45:32 GMT

I first read Enders Game so long ago I cannot remember if it was 10
or 15 years ago.  The story was one of O. S. Card's first and to
this day I find one of the most readable stories in science fiction.
It has appeared in at least two anthologies.  BTW the the story
first appeared in Analog.  I look forward to reading the book.

Spoiler -- Spoiler -- Spoiler

I have read a couple of articles implying the premise of the story
is one of war games simulation.  I distinctly remember an entirely
different and much more scary premise, that was the training of the
young, starting at kindergarden, for war.  In synopsis, earth was at
war with another planet and earth had a fleet that was traveling to
that planet.  The fleet was unmanned, but, could be controlled from
earth in real time.  Earth, needed trained pilots and a military
genius when the fleet arrived.

Ender is the genius, and the story is the story of how he is trained
to do battle in three dimensions and to win.  Never in the story is
Ender told that he is being trained to KILL a species and DESTROY an
entire planetary system.  The distinction of when the training stops
and the real fighting begins is never made to Ender.  Only in the
end, when the enemy is destroyed does Ender realize that it is more
than a game.

To me the story asks was it worth it to take a person who is a
genius and so limit her/his life that what is left is a tool for
destruction.

As far as the premise being old or tired, I did not find this to be
the case when I first read the story, and never on rereading.

                                                Larry Welsch
                                                ihu1e!welsch

------------------------------

Subject: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick
Date: 04 Dec 85 01:21:59 EST (Wed)
From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU

Someone asked about The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, by Philip
K.  Dick.  As a big PKD fan, I am embarrassed to say that I haven't
read it.  I do know that it involves a drug-induced "subjective
world".  It is probably not a bad Dick book to start with if you're
interested in him.  Don't read or not read it because you've heard
it's an "LSD book".  Someone else should be able to say more.  I'm
mostly trying to stimulate some comments about PKD.

                                                 Frank Hollander

------------------------------

From: bunny!ehn0@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Nyberg)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick (really PKD)
Date: 5 Dec 85 12:32:38 GMT

Several people (including Ellison, I think) have claimed that PKD
wrote "Stigmata" whilst tripping. Inside sources have disclaimed
this. It's not really an "LSD book." The drug Chew-Z is the
instrument by which Palmer Eldritch asserts almost god-like power
over all who take it (somewhat akin to the Gnostic demi-urge). I
would say that this is one of my favorite PKD books; there is a lot
to think about here - I've read the book about 3 times and there is
still more to fathom! It's not a bad PKD novel to start with, but I
would also recommend "Man in the High Castle," "Martian Time Slip,"
or "UBIK" as good places to start. "Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep?" is also pretty good.

I have been moderating a PKD mailing list (with widely fluctuating
levels of activity) since this summer. If anyone is interested, send
me a request and I can send the back issues. I'm also interested in
discussing the theological aspects of Dick's works, especially his
use of the Gnostic pantheon.

If you're interested, try Dick's non-scientifiction. "The Man Whose
Teeth Were All Alike" is better than "In Milton Lumky Territory,"
but the best is really "Confessions of a Crap Artist," which is
unfortunately difficult to find.

If anyone has read PKD (old, new, shorts) recently and would like to
compose his/her ideas into a review/essay for the mailing, feel
free...

CSNET: ehn0@gte-labs           Eric H. Nyberg, 3rd
UUCP: ..harvard!bunny!ehn0     GTE Laboratories, Dept. 317
                               40 Sylvan Rd.
                               Waltham, MA  02254
                               (617) 466-2518

------------------------------

Subject: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick
Date: 04 Dec 85 01:21:59 EST (Wed)
From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU

Someone said that in Expanded Universe, Heinlein advanced the idea
that there be a society where only women vote.  This misses his
point completely.  The idea was that only *mothers* vote.  This was
in an essay where Heinlein defended criticism about Starship
Troopers.  In ST, only veterans [of civil service] are allowed to
vote.  The idea behind this is that only people who have served
their country have an interest in it, thus only they should be given
the franchise.  A mother, on the other hand, has demonstrated an
interest in the future of mankind, therefore only mothers should be
allowed to vote (in his hypothetical country).  Heinlein places a
big emphasis on *breeding*.

In general, the non-fiction in Expanded Universe is very good.

                                                 Frank Hollander

------------------------------

From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440)
Subject: Re: JOB - Another Mini Review from a UK viewpoint
Date: 4 Dec 85 22:29:53 GMT

pete@stc.UUCP writes:
> Very readable, quite entertaining. I  haven't  read  much
> RAH  recently; this was better than I was lead to expect.

As the Cybermen would say, excellent. I gave RAH one more chance to
write a decent non-juvenile book (i.e. one that wasn't
self-satisfied, largely pointless, womb-fixated or any of the other
things I've hated his work for since after Glory Road (the last one
I really enjoyed)) He finally did it.  Even I say unto you, RAH RAH
RAH.

> One alternate universe is much like another.  Shouldn't Alec have
> noticed environmental differences? (More/less atmospheric
> pollution, etc.)

I think the similarity of the universes picked was intentional.
Besides, would Alex have known what pollution was unless he came
upon somewhere really rancid?

> Born-again Christianity isn't such a big deal here - this
> makes  the  discussions  in the first half pretty boring.

Oh, I don't know. I allowed RAH these little foibles. Besides, one
of the important things was how Alex felt about Christianity. And
they didn't go on half as long as Heinlein's discussions normally
do. (Remember LL in TEFL when he's waffling on about genetics with
regard to the baby. Yaaaawwwwwwn.

> Heaven/Hell sequence is good fun.

For the first time (several times) RAH made me laugh out loud. It's
good to see the senility isn't complete yet :-)

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick
Date: 5 Dec 85 17:13:04 GMT

>From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
> Someone said that in Expanded Universe, Heinlein advanced the
> idea...

That was me, and I may have slightly misquoted, but I don't really
think I missed the point (actually, Heinlein *does* suggest only
women voting somewhere else, without the "mothers" restriction.)  At
least, I remember both the idea and the reasoning quite clearly, and
had it in mind when I wrote the article.

In fact, splitting hairs, I could even argue that RAH *meant* women,
since his rationale specifically claims women who have not borne
children as effectively (economically/socially) male.

However, on reflection, you are probably right -- RAH would probably
approve of letting any men who have become mothers vote.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: apollo!christensen@caip.rutgers.edu (Wendy Christensen)
Subject: mono sex societies
Date: 6 Dec 85 21:42:13 GMT

For an interesting slant on this subject, read "The Disappearance."
I don't remember the author's name. It was written about 1950 and is
considered a minor classic.

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 9 Dec 85 00:10:30 GMT

The author is Phillip Wylie, and is indeed an excellent read.  See
also Wylie's _Gladiator_ (not for mono-sex-societies, but also
excellent).

Daniel J. Barrett
Dept. of Electrical Engineering & Computer Science
Johns Hopkins University
Baltimore, MD  21218

------------------------------

From: orstcs!richardt@caip.rutgers.edu (richardt)
Subject: Book Search Request
Date: 26 Nov 85 10:19:00 GMT

I would like to procure a copy of a space opera which I read many
years ago (1980), which was out of print even then.  The title of
this rather small paperback was "For Texas and For Zed."  Although
the storyline is no great shakes, the gadgetry is somewhat
interesting.

If anyone has any info on this book, please mail me.

Stepping Off the Soapbox:
{hp-pcd | tektronix} !orstcs!richardt
Richard Threadgill
1230 NW 23rd #7
Corvallis Or

------------------------------

From: sphinx.UChicago!tra4@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Henry Traum)
Subject: Re: SF Radio  & Battlefield Earth
Date: 5 Dec 85 05:42:53 GMT

Have you ever heard of "X Minus One"? It is an old SF radio show
(40's, I think) which had both original stories and adaptations of
the classics of SF.  I have heard it from time to time on National
Public Radio, although I don't know if they still play it.

                                                Jonathan Traum

------------------------------

Subject: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick
Date: 04 Dec 85 01:21:59 EST (Wed)
From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU

The Star Trek videocassettes have been released in the order in
which they were aired.  However, the numbering is based on the order
in which they were produced (and aired in syndication).  Now, a
total of 30 have been released, including all from the first season
as well as the first two from the second season ("Who Mourns..." and
"Amok Time").  What's interesting about this is that the numbering
starts with #2 ("The Corbomite Manuever") - an indication that
Paramount intends to release "The Cage" (the first pilot, not aired
- the first episode).  I suspect that they are looking for a copy of
it.  I have seen a black&white copy that Gene Roddenberry travels
with.  A color version may not exist.  Regardless, the market for
"The Cage" is large.

Question?  Did ABC show extra scenes from Star Trek II when they
           aired it? If so, what were they?
                                                 Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: Sat 7 Dec 85 00:47:29-EST
From: Chris.Durham <CD0V@TE.CC.CMU.EDU>
Subject: twilight zone

Tonight's Zone was enjoyable, although highly predictable.

IN "The Beacon" , we knew that the doctor would be the one to go
when the mother wouldn't let him treat the sick daughter. However, I
thought that this particular one did one of the best jobs I've seen
so far in bringing back the spirit of the original series. Although
it was predictable, it was far from boring or downright stupid, as
so many of the new episodes have been.

I liked Harlan's episode too,however, it was just a twist on a
familiar tail. Someone goes back into the past and meets
himself/herself, and changes his/her own life by the meeting <in
this case, for the worst>.  See The Time Travelers Series and the
Trek animated episode Yesteryear, for other stories like this.
However, Harlan goes a good way in making the story interesting. He
wants to make us understand Gus' feelings and he does a good job.

However, these episodes, as I said above, are very predictable. I
wish there were more unpredictable ones.

Responses welcome,

Chris Durham, CD0V%CMCCTE@TE.CC.CMU.EDU <ARPA>
              CD0V%CMCCTE@Carnegie.Mailnet <mailnet>
              CD0V%CMCCTE@CU20B.Columbia.EDU <bitnet>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 85 20:30 PST
From: Michael Wahrman <wahrman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Harlan Ellison Leaves T.Z.

Daily Variety, Dec. 3, 1985

HARLAN ELLISON ANGLES 'THE TWILIGHT ZONE'

Writer Harlan Ellison has ankled CBS' "The Twilight Zone," where he
had served as a creative consultant since last November.

Ellison reportedly left the show as a result of a disagreement with
network program practices over a segment he had written for the
skein and was to have directed.

Show's producers could not be reached for comment.

[For "Program practices" substitute "censor".  -- MW]

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Query about reviews/criticism
Date: 4 Dec 85 22:44:00 GMT

I ran up against a couple of quotes in Damon Knight's IN SEARCH OF
WONDER that I wanted to bounce off the net readership.  The book is
about twenty years old (1967) and is a collection of critical essays
on science fiction.

Both quotes are extracted from the introduction by Anthony Boucher.

Contrasting reviewing and criticism,

"Reviewing is the lesser art, with a more immediate functional
purpose.  The reviewer's objective is to express his reactions to a
work in such a way that the readers of a given periodical will know
whether or not they want to read it.  The critic attempts to measure
the work by more lasting and more nearly absolute standards, to
determine its place, not for the reader of the moment, but for the
cultivated mind viewing the entire art of which this work forms a
segment."

On critics and writers,

"The question of whether a arbiter should also be a creator is, as
I've written elsewhere, a tough one.  Either way, the victim of an
unfavorable review can make what seems a legitimate complaint.  If
the reviewer is not a writer, what does he know about the field?
He:s probably sured and frustrated because he can't sell, and takes
out his spite on those who do.  If he is a writer, he's jealous of
competition, he can understand only his own kind of story, and who's
he to talk anyway -- look at his own stuff!"

In view of net traffic on reviews, critiques, opinions, or however
these quotes strike you, any thoughts or comments?

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 85 0957-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #456
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 456

Today's Topics:

         Miscellaneous - Human Reaction to Vacuum (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 1 Dec 85 23:52:43 GMT

> From: cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard)
> Time Lords and even mere human beings do NOT explode when exposed
> to vacuum, as you all seem to suppose they should.  It is very
> uncomfortable, however, and it is not possible (or at least not
> safe to try) to hold your breath.  A greater danger is the
> temperature.

I've had a long standing disagreement with several people about this
issue, that is, whether or not people "explode" when exposed to
vacuum.  I've read books and seen movies where they do and also
where they don't.  I personally don't believe that people explode in
a vacuum, though I have no evidence to support my belief.

Does anyone have any proof for or against?


Greg Paris
{allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 2 Dec 85 18:38:24 GMT

Not proof, per se. However, this issue has come up before in
discussions about 2001. (The sequence where Dave gets spit - ptwoo!
- from a space pod to the Discovery across an atmosphereless
corridor.) Arthur Clarke maintains that the army had performed
experiments in the early 60's involving dogs and vacuum chambers. It
sounded disgusting, but the dogs did not explode. (Again, Clarke is
the only source I have for this.)

If a creature with large lung capacity had a lungfull of air, I
would think he/she/it would pop like a bad dream. If not?  I dunno.
There is a lot of gas in the human body (mostly tied up in the
bloodstream) that I would imagine would want to get out. You may not
pop, but I would guess that you would (at least!) wind up with a
severe case of the bends, and a few ruptured organs.

Rob DeMillo
Madison Academic Computer Center
...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo

------------------------------

From: spar!freeman@caip.rutgers.edu (Jay Freeman)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 2 Dec 85 23:01:59 GMT

The matter is closed.  Human beings do not explode when exposed to
vacuum.  We have learned it the hard way.

The Soviets lost three cosmonauts in the early 1970s, when a Soyuz
(I think it was) decompressed on undocking from a space station.
The spacecraft reentered successfully (either on autopilot or under
ground control).  The cosmonauts were very dead, but suffered no
large-scale damage or disfiguring.  They looked as if they had
fallen asleep.

There was a good deal of American concern about this incident, and
the Soviets were scrupulous about describing it in detail; because
the time was just before the joint US-USSR space flight, the
Apollo-Soyuz Test Project.  In that flight, an Apollo docked with a
Soyuz for several days.  NASA was of course concerned about the
safety of the Soviet vehicle.  The Soviets wanted the flight to
happen, so they were very open and aboveboard about the
decompression incident.

I don't recall what cabin pressure the Soyuz used.  It could hardly
have been less than 3 psi (if pure oxygen) and hardly more than 15
psi (sea-level atmosphere).  I doubt even the full factor-of-five
difference would change "no visible damage" into "POP!".

Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 3 Dec 85 12:58:32 GMT

  Personally I too think that people explode in space but the short
story I've just read (out of ADV 2 ) disagrees and reanimates them.
  So on a quick bit of thinking we have that pressure * volume /
Temp. must be constant. This is one of the basic laws of
thermodynamics.
  A quick look in a few books and general discussion gives us a
temp. of 3K and pressure of about 10E-13Pa. Thus going from room
temp and pressue to space will result in one meter cube of gas going
to 1E11 meters cube!!!
  Taking into account alitle energy for liquid vapourisation I
reccon that still any body in space will have the liquid in their
body boil-vaporize and resulting in just about every cell in the
body rupturing. i.e.BANG!
  Well this is what I think and calculate , any other ideas  ?

IAN SEWELL

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_adis@caip.rutgers.edu (David I Shapiro)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 4 Dec 85 17:37:44 GMT

> Does anyone have any proof for or against?

Yes I do.  The human body is pressurized by the Earth's atmosphere,
which is approximately 14.3 PSI (Pounds per square inch). Space, in
particular a vaccum, has no pressure, therefore the human body
would explode, perhaps not spectacularly, but the lack of pressure
on the body would try to create an equalization of some sort.

------------------------------

From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 4 Dec 85 14:16:57 GMT

 Jay Reynolds Freman writes about the Soyuz acident in reference to
the body in space argument.

 As much as it pains me to say this on the net YOU ARE WRONG!
 The soyuz space craft did not decompress on leaving the space
station it started to decompress as it re-entered the atmosphere due
to a faulty valve.  This valve should have been closed automatically
( I do not know what perpose the valve had ) but did not and one of
the cosmonauts died whilst trying to shut the valve off manually. It
was later found that the time taken to close the valve manually
would have been longer than the time of reentry.
 Back to the point now. The reason that the cosmonauts died was from
asphyxiation due to the ships air being removed via this valve. Thus
they fell asleep and died with no visible marks on them (this is
standard in asphyxiation cases).
 This is totally different from the cases we are thinking of in
which the body is subjected to low temp and pressure as in outer
space. The pressure and temp in the craft was nearly normal it was
just the lack of air that was the killer (the fact that the Russians
use an air mixture while USA uses oxygen may also play a part I
don't know) and maybe the build up of CO2.
 I now refer you to my earlier article on the proper reaction of the
body to outer space and a book whose author I can't remember about
the Russian space program called 'Red Star In Space'

IAN SEWELL

------------------------------

From: ecrcvax!snoopy@caip.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 4 Dec 85 13:38:34 GMT

I have no proof, but I have a fairly old book (at least I bought it
long ago), called "The Making of 2001". In there, there is an
explanation of the fact that Bowman can get back into the Discovery
without his helmet. People can survive for a short time in a vacuum.
After all skin is a fairly tight sealing enclosure.

I would reckon that the time would be roughly a minute and is fairly
independent of how long you can hold your breath.  Supposedly your
blood will start frothing in a vacuum because the nitrogen dissolved
in your blood will be "boiled off".  This is similar I presume to
cats or Gremlins in microwave ovens: they do explode but only after
a while. (N.B. I love animals and have NOT tried this, but I have
read small items in newspapers about such things; I have also seen
Gremlins; I don't know if Steven Spielberg tried it)

So the answer to your question is "Yes, but only for a short time".
Mind you, if you put your mind to it, you can do a lot in a minute
(like opening an emergency airlock I presume). Also your instinct
for self preservation will tend to make you think better and work
better in such situations apart from giving you lots of strength.
One would hope that the vacuum shock would trigger something that
would make you more resilient (like some chemical adjustment in your
bloodstream). The matter of fact is, that very few people actually
realise HOW fast blood flows. Some time ago I had a radioactive
checkup done and they injected some stuff into my arm (elbow) and
the scanners under my kidneys reacted less than 5 seconds later. In
other words in an emergency situation (with high pulse) I reckon
your blood's composition could be changed very swiftly (less than
about ten seconds) THROUGOUT the whole body. A real Adrenaline shove
would make you GO places...

So living in a vacuum is possible, but there is also cosmic
radiation: very dangerous. I don't know whether this would not get
you first. Bear in mind that Bowman was in vacuum allright but was
never in open space, He had his pod doors open and then went
straight into the airlock tunnel. No air but also no radiation (or
at least being shielded a lot).

I am not really willing to try something like this out. The problem
is similar to those chemistry text books, which claim that "Cyanide
tastes like almonds". I guess that was the last thing the tester
said.

Sorry for the length and diversions.

Love,
Sebastian
\!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy /

------------------------------

From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum (pop goes the weasel)
Date: 3 Dec 85 17:53:11 GMT

Back when _2001_ was first released, the (written) program that
accompanied the film included a short article by Clarke on this very
subject.  He said tests with primates have shown that the victim has
about 30 seconds of useful conciousness... and no mention was made
of explosions.  Clarke has used the "unprotected human in vacuum"
in several stories.

After all, why should the body explode?  It's only 14psi difference.
The shuttle space suits operate at 5 psi.  The Air Force routinely
gives "explosive decompression" tests to pilots in altitude
chambers.  In these, the pressure is changed from sea level to
50,000 feet in less than a second.  I've watched pilots undergo it;
it looked uncomfortable, but they do it all the time.

The temperature makes little difference in the short term... as
space has no temperature.  You are in a Thermos.  You should retain
heat fairly well, depending upon exposed skin and other radiative
areas.
                                         Ron Wanttaja
                                         (ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 4 Dec 85 16:27:00 GMT

Bodies do not explode in vacuum, even with explosive decompression,
as far as I know with my limited knowledge.

However, there are severe dangerous problems with vacuum.  The worst
is the fluid (i.e. tears) would freeze and possibly damage your
eyes.  Your blood would literally begin to boil because of the
vacuum.  This is definitely not good f or you. For more references,
read "A Breath of Vacuum" by Arthur C. Clarke.  Apparently the HUMan
Body is a lot tougher than we think.  Personally, I think one could
hold out in a vacuum for perhaps 20-30 seconds.  Think about 2001
and the scene where Bowman reenters the airlock w/o a helmet.

------------------------------

From: ttidcc!hollombe@caip.rutgers.edu (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 4 Dec 85 21:23:55 GMT

In the 50's, when airplanes were just starting to go high enough
with pressurised cabins for this to matter, the military did some
interesting experiments with this concept.  I remember seeing
documentary films of them and they went something like this:

A volunteer would sit in a sealed room at standard atmospheric
pressure (about 15 psi).  Attached to the volunteer's chamber,
separated from it by a sealed aperture, was a vacuum chamber from
which as much air as possible was evacuated.  The experiment
consisted of shattering the seal between the two chambers and
observing the volunteer.  Typical pressure differentials were 50% in
under 1 second.

Although none of the volunteers exploded, or died as far as I know,
I remember seeing at least one man swell up alarmingly during one of
the more violent trials.  I assume they worked up to this level from
milder trials to avoid killing anyone outright.

What I conclude from this is that results depend on speed and amount
of decompression.  If you go from 15 psi to zero in under a second,
you're likely to pop your skin, at least, and probably rupture lots
of other things.  On the other hand, if your breathing pure oxygen
at 3 psi and suddenly go to zero you'll probably only notice minor
discomfort (even suffocating won't bother you much as there'll be no
CO2 buildup in your system).

Jerry Hollombe
Citicorp(+)TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 5 Dec 85 20:21:22 GMT

        The thing about thermo is that it says nothing about rates.
The word BANG has nothing to do with anything *but* rates :-).  Your
numbers sound correct, but all in all human skin is pretty tough
stuff.  The internal pressures are fairly high, but they are very
evenly distributed, not counting the pressure from the lungs.  The
body would be subject to the bends, but even that is rate-dependent,
i.e. the severity of the case depends on how long the pressure
differential exists.

        This discussion brings up a story I once read, on what might
be considered the opposite problem.  Hilbert Schenk (assuredly
mispelled) published a story titled _Bouyant _Ascent for Fantasy and
Science Fiction.  *SPOILER WARNING* The crew members were ejected
through the torpedo tubes and rose to the surface very quickly in
very bouyant suits.  To keep from being crushed by the water
pressure the people were forced to scream during ascent.  They were
then picked up at the surface and rushed into decompression
chambers.  It is a very good story, and I believe that the act of
screaming would be useful for the problem of rapid decompression.
The lungs would almost have to be emptied of air when hitting the
vacuum, and a scream is most effective at doing this.  Of course, by
the end of the scream there would be lung damage from exposure to
vacuum, so the person would have to stop before totally running out
of air.  The main problem is that once a person starts screaming,
they seldom know when to stop :-).

------------------------------

From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy M. Smith)
Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum
Date: 6 Dec 85 18:36:36 GMT

>   So on a quick bit of thinking we have that pressure * volume /
> Temp. must be constant. This is one of the basic laws of
> thermodynamics.
>   A quick look in a few books and general discussion gives us a
> temp. of 3K and pressure of about 10E-13Pa. Thus going from room
> temp and pressue to space will result in one meter cube of gas
> going to 1E11 meters cube!!!
>   Taking into account alitle energy for liquid vapourisation I
> reccon that still any body in space will have the liquid in their
> body boil-vaporize and resulting in just about every cell in the
> body rupturing. i.e.BANG!
>   Well this is what I think and calculate , any other ideas ?

Don't forget that the term thermodynamics is actually a misnomer, it
only deals with systems in equilibrium, i.e. static. Extension of
thermodynamics to dynamic systems in any fundamental way is
extremely difficult (see any work on irreversible thermodynamics).
The issue here is not what the eventual outcome will be, that's
clearly a dessicated hulk, slightly dead.  The rate at which the
process occurrs is what needs to be determined and that does not
lend itself to simple calculation.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Dec 85 0848-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #457
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Dec 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 457

Today's Topics:

       Books - Anderson & Asimov (2 msgs),
       Miscellaneous - Pangalactic Gargle Blasters (2 msgs) &
               World Design & First Annual "Tucker" Awards

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Time Patrol
Date: 8 Dec 85 15:19:15 GMT

krf7527@ritcv.UUCP writes:
>I'm looking for a list of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories.

In 1964 I bought a British paperback edition `Guardians of Time'
published by Pan.

It contained the following stories and attributions:

Time Patrol - May 1955                 }
Delenda Est - December 1955            }  All from
Brave to be a King - August 1959       }  F & SF
The Only Game in Town - January 1960   }

It's quite likely that Poul Anderson wrote more.  Can anyone supply
a longer list?

BTW, SilverBob's `Up the Line' is a ribaldly funny
view of a Time Patrol from the criminal's POV.

Peter Kendell <pete@stc.UUCP>
...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Review: ROBOTS AND EMPIRE
Date: 4 Dec 85 22:48:00 GMT

                 ROBOTS AND EMPIRE by Isaac Asimov
                      Doubleday Books
                         (also SF Bookclub)
                    A book review by Jim Brunet

        Not having had my complete fill of turkey over Thanksgiving
weekend, I picked up my so-far neglected copy of ROBOTS AND EMPIRE.
By the time I finished, I was mildly surprised; R&E is a much better
book than either FOUNDATIONS EDGE or ROBOTS OF DAWN.  Unfortunately,
this still doesn't necessarily make it a very good book, and while
R&E has its redeeming moments, it remains seriously flawed.

        A general problem with multi-volume series is that each
volume has to introduce the background fresh from the beginning so
the book can work as a stand-alone piece for readers for whom this
is their first book.  Needless to say, this creates a swamp that
readers of the series have to wade through with each new book, which
is one reason that the second or later volumes of many series aren't
as successful as the first -- the material is no longer fresh, yet
it's embedded in the pages like a layer of cold oatmeal.  A related
problem is the necessity of making references to events and persons
of previous volumes so the current work will make sense.

        Asimov has both problems in R&E, the latter compounded by
the fact that since he is writing a middle book in the series, he
must have hooks and links forward as well as back.  The first
immediate symptom of this is the incredible talkiness of the book,
particularly at the beginning and the end.

        The technique is called exposition-in-dialog, the classic
bad example in SF being when the hero explains to the scientist's
beautiful-but-dumb daughter why the oxygen will run out in three
hours or the sun will nova unless they fix the gamma prestagobulator
or some such.  In R&E, such dialog takes place to explain about
Gladia's relationship to Elijah Baley, the problems the robots
Giskard and Daneel have mediating possible courses of action under
the constraints of the Three Laws of Robotics, and basically
re-capping the significant events of ROBOTS OF DAWN.
Booorrrrrr-ing!

        At these moments, the characters cease to be characters.
Rather, they become loudspeakers through which the author unsubtly
conveys what we need to know; the characters exist for us, rather
than for themselves.

        When the characters cease to be Asimov's contrivances,
however, they rise a considerable bit above the level of FE and ROD,
though not quite up to CAVES OF STEEL, FOUNDATION TRILOGY, or THE
GODS THEMSELVES.  Giskard and Daneel are quite clearly
differentiated as two different personalities and work well as robot
characters.  Gladia makes her best appearance in three books.
However, Kelden Amadiro, the villain of ROD; Dr. Mandamus, his new
accomplice; and Deejee Baley, great-great-great grandson of Elijah,
are rendered in a crude brushstroke-on-cardboard manner.  (Deejee
stands for the initials D.G. -- yes, his full name is Daneel Giskard
Baley.)

**WARNING: PLOT SPOILERS OF INCREASING DEGREE BEGIN AT THIS POINT**

        Yet if characterization is not Asimov's strong suit (as he
made clear in an essay titled "The Tin God of Characterization"
published earlier this year in ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION
MAGAZINE), his plot and ideas don't fare much better.

        The basics are that Earth and its colony Settler worlds are
busily expanding through the local interstellar neck of the woods.
Aurora and the other Spacer worlds feel threatened by the fact that
short-lived, brutish Earthlings and their kin are going to overrun
the galaxy as the long-lived Spacer worlds fail to muster the
intellectual and physical vigor necessary to match the expansion.
Kelden Amadiro, the chief roboticist for Aurora, is determined to
destroy Earth -- in his opinion, the Settler worlds will wither and
die without the backing of the homeplanet.  Enter Dr. Mandamus, who
offers Amadiro a plan that can succeed in exchange for promises of
political preferment.

        In the meantime, the Spacer planet Solaria (Gladia's
birthplace) has been abandoned by its inhabitants.  The Settler
Trader's think hungrily of all the thousands of robots running
around without masters; what a bundle could be made by selling them
to other Spacer worlds.  Unfortunately, two of their ships are
destroyed after landing, and Deejee Bayley is sent to Aurora to
secure the services of Gladia as Solaria expert/guide.

        From this point, the plot uncoils, unwinding relentlessly to
the point where Amadiro is ready to destroy the earth.  I won't say
how, but the thwarting of Amadiro hinges on two pivotal factors.
First, that several thousand of years after interstellar flight has
been achieved, the subject of nuclear fission is still taboo on
earth and a site whose three-word name includes the archaic unit of
distance "mile" is still avoided by the natives (yes, Three Mile
Island, and no other).  Secondly, contrivances of contrivances, the
unbridled use of a telepathic robot (Giskard) as a plot device.
While this revelation occurred in ROD, Elijah Baley worked it out
and it was not a central mechanism for advancing the plot, at least
as the plot was developing.  However in the tale of intrigue and
suspense under discussion, a telepathic robot that can not only read
minds to a degree, but alter emotional states (shades of the Second
Foundation!) and make people forget inconvenient thoughts or events,
is deucedly too much of a convenience for the author, not unlike
having a 67th level combination fighter-cleric in your local D&D
game.  Phooey!

        There are other holes of a lesser nature -- it doesn't seem
plausible that the claustrophobic, robot-dependent Spacer colonies
could reasonably supply the numbers of crew necessary to support the
fleet of warships sometimes referred to, but this is a mere
bagatelle compared to other points.

        Aside from the character and plot, Asimov's writing is still
winceable at points.  He can't write romance/passion to save his
problematical soul.

        "And then, at last, there was Elijah Baley, who was never
her husband, whom she met only twice, two years apart, each time for
a few hours on each of a very few days.  Elijah, whose cheek she had
once touched with her ungloved hand, on which occasion she had
ignited; whose nude body she had later held in her arms, on which
occasion she had flamed steadily at last."

        Yet, in spite of the problems, R&E has re-ignited (oops!) in
me a sense of anticipation about future books.  Parts of R&E are
very enjoyable; for me, the fourth and fifth sixths of the book read
smoothly and engaged my attentions very well.  While it's not one of
Asimov's best, dyed-in-the-positron Asimov fans will love it, and
others may find it of interest in spite of its flaws.

Jim Brunet
decvax!cca!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Review: ROBOTS AND EMPIRE
Date: 4 Dec 85 22:55:00 GMT

Errrgh!  Long as it was, I missed a major point.

                    ***** PLOT SPOILER ********

A key point in the plot is the development of the Zeroth Law of
Robotics, so-called because when discovered (by robots, no less) it
takes precedence over all of the Three Laws.

It runs something like this: "Gee, if saving a human from harm must
be good, then saving humanity from harm must be great!"  I don't
care how many BIPS of positronic processing power you've got, the
result would be schizo'd robots, unless they have omniscience,
omnipotence, and om... Oops.

jimb

------------------------------

From: stolaf!haeckel@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul C. Haeckel)
Subject: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe
Date: 4 Dec 85 18:45:37 GMT

A while back (sometime last year, in fact) someone posted a recipe
for their version of the Pangalactic Gargle Blaster, a lovely little
drink that was introduced in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
trilogy (which has 4 books to it - only Douglas Adams would have the
chutzpah to do this).  Although I never got a chance to try it out,
I saved it for some future pique of insanity.  Lo and behold, when I
finally decided it would be useful this holiday season, I discovered
it had gotten nuked somewhere along the line.  Does anybody happen
tow have this recipe still?  Perhaps a reposting would be in order
here...

Paul Haeckel
{...ihnp4!stolaf!haeckel} or
{...decvax!stolaf!haeckel}

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!gt4395b@caip.rutgers.edu (Christodoulou,Michael Joseph)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe
Date: 8 Dec 85 19:16:08 GMT

                   THE PANGALACTIC GARGLE BLASTER

    "Here's what the ENCYCLOPEDIA GALACTICA has to say about
alcohol.  It says that alcohol is a colorless liquid formed by the
fermentation of sugars and also notes its intoxicating effects on
certain carbon- based life forms.
     "THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY also mentions alochol.
It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster.
     "It says that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle
Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon
wrapped round a large gold brick.
     "The GUIDE also tells you on which planets the best Pan
Galactic Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay
for one and what voluntary organizations exist to help you
rehabilitate afterward.
     "The GUIDE even tells you how you can mix one yourself.
     "Take the juice from one bottle of the Ol' Janx Spirit, it
says.
     "Pour it into one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus
V -- Oh, that Santraginean seawater, it says.  Oh, those
Santraginean fish!
     "Allow three cubes of Arcturan Mega-gin to melt into the
mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzene is lost).
     "Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it,
in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the
Marshes of Fallia.
     "Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin
Hypermint Extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the dark
Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet and mystic.
     "Drop in the tooth of an Angolian Suntiger.  Watch it dissolve,
spreading the fires of the Angolian suns deep into the heart of the
drink.
     "Sprinkle Zamphuor.
     "Add an olive.
     "Drink . . . but . . . very carefully . . .
     "THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY sells rather better than
the ENCYCLOPEDIA GALACTICA."

Douglas Adams, THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, (C) 1979

I have never managed to make this drink properly.  If you have any
success, let me know and I will Hitchhike over to your place to see
what I have been doing wrong.
                                   Mike Christodoulou

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 85 14:00:50 pst
From: king@kestrel (Dick King)
Subject: sunset, ... sunrise [world design service] issue 452

As I understand it, a rapidly rotating nonsolid object forms a DISC,
not a FOOTBALL.

Why not a double star in close, fast orbit?  The world rotates quite
slowly, and one star sets due to its own motion as the other rises.

dick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 85 9:41:55 CST
From: Rich Zellich <zellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: First Annual "Tucker" Awards

This weekend at Xarkon (Czarkon 3, an "adult relaxacon", nobody
under 18 admitted), the first annual "Tuckers" were presented.  For
those who haven't yet heard of this award, it is a new award
instituted to honor the activities of that heretofore unsung group
of people known as SF convention partiers.  The official title is
the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction Convention Partying.
Every award must, of course, have a nickname hence the "Tucker".

The initial awards were sponsored and administered by the St. Louis
in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be
administered by a related group.  The awards were nominated and
voted on by not only members of Xarkon, but also by anyone who cared
to at the Worldcon and NASFiC St. Louis in '88 parties (nomination
forms and final ballots were also mailed to selected 'zines, but too
late for them to get them into their next issues; the X-Con
convention committee also handed them out to their members).

There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or
dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan.  Couples or groups are eligible as a
single nominee.  Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is
eligible, but nominees this year (and probably 1986 as well) had to
be willing to attend the presenting convention if they won.  Winners
are not eligible for re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing
nominees are eligible again the following year.

The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice
bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year,
award name, and the winner's name.  An instant tradition was started
this year: the winners received their awards full, but took them
home from the convention empty (they had a \lot/ of self-sacrificing
volunteers helping empty the awards).

The winners and other nominees this year were:

Special Grand Master award:  Wilson "Bob" Tucker

SF Professional:  Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle
  other nominees:  Glen Cook
                   Dick Spelman
                   Wilson "Bob" Tucker (Bob would have won this
                   category if he had not been disqualified by the
                   awards committee for receipt of the Grand Master
                   award; it was easier to leave him on the ballot
                   than to explain to everyone why he wasn't on it)

SF Artist:  David Lee Anderson
  other nominees:  Keith Berdak
                   David Egge
                   Dell Harris

SF Fan:  Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt
  other nominees:  Jim Elmore
                   Karl Laundy
                   Ken Moore

Special Ballot Stuffing award:  Glen Boettcher
   (Glen was responsible for a Milwaukee club group and X-Con
   sending in a whole buncha ballots; the special award was a
   miniature Beam's bottle on a 1.5-inch square base with a paper
   "plaque".)

A \very/ long list of people was nominated, and 4 of the top
nominees (2 pro's, 1 artist, and 1 fan) had to be disqualified
either because they couldn't be reached to verify their willingness
to be nominated or because they said they couldn't attend Xarkon
even if we notified them they had won.

This was all done on fairly short notice this year.  Next year the
nominations will start at least 6 months earlier, to allow time for
fanzines and clubs to reproduce the nomination forms and final
ballots.  Hopefully, nominations and balloting will also be open to
SF-Lovers readers; it would have been this year, but it didn't occur
to me until just now (sorry 'bout that).

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Dec 85 0929-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #458
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Dec 1985   Volume 10 : Issue 458

Today's Topics:

            Books - Dickson & Gibson & Grant & Hubbard &
                    Rosebury & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs),
            Films - Earth Abides (2 msgs),
            Television - The New Twilight Zone,
            Miscellaneous - Pangalactic Gargle Blasters &
                    Ism in writing and censorship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 85 07:50 PST
From: NEwman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: RE Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA?"

Yes.

Good book, if tremendously long. The only real problem is that it is
just setting everything up for the last book. The character is
well-drawn, the plot keeps your interest, and lots of loose ends are
tied up. This book is perhaps not as easy to believe as some earlier
works in the cycle, but it is enjoyable nonetheless. When I finished
it, I *REALLY* wanted to go out and get the last book and read it
right away. I guess I gotta wait until it gets published though.

I am told that the next book is the last, and that it will be called
'Childe'.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1985 22:11:44 PST
Subject: William Gibson dead
From: Tom Galloway <GALLOWAY@USC-ISIB.ARPA>

William Gibson, perhaps better known as Maxwell Grant, died Friday
in upstate New York. Gibson was the creator, and principal writer of
the Shadow pulps in the 30s and 40s.  In addition, his peak output
rate made Asimov and Silverberg look like they suffer from writer's
block! At one point, he wrote and published 1,440,000 words in 10
months (equal to 20 to 24 books).

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985 02:19:46-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Charles L. Grant

> From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker)
> There is one story by Charles L. Grant that makes this issue not a
> total waste of time, called "The Children, They Laugh So Sweetly".
> [...]  Interestingly enough, Grant is the one author in this issue
> who isn't a "name" of one kind or another....

Only if your knowledge of the field of fantastic literature is
restricted to "science fiction" and "fantasy". Charlie Grant is one
of the most respected authors/editors in the horror (or as the folk
in the genre like to call it --- "dark fantasy") field.  He has been
a nominee and winner for numerous World Fantasy Awards, both as an
writer and an anthologist.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon 9 Dec 85 22:44:16-PST
From: Blp <Ploetz%ECLD@USC-ECL.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #442

Several years ago friends of mine (!) gave me, as a "gag" gift, the
hardcover edition of L. Ron Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH.  I'll
forego an explanation of why this might be considered a "gag" gift,
although some of you more perceptive types might be able to figure
it out from context.

For those of you who are Scientologists (R) (or maybe (C)?), I'll
just say that I thought the book was pure drivel and mention that
I'm PTS so that you can skip the rest of this and ignore commentary
from such a "downscale" thetan.

For those with a more open mind (which, I am told, L. Ron Hubbard
warns his "followers" against), I'd like to point out that most
modern science fiction authors have grown away from the sophormoric
writing that marked the pulp era of science fiction and are writing
more humanistic and socially relevent fiction these days. You may
have noticed. I admit to occasionally reading light science fiction
from those bygone days (perhaps not enough to know what I'm talking
about), but with an historical perspective. I'd like to think that
today's audiences demand more sophistication, even in escapist
science fiction (hardly a tome 819 pages long in hardcover should
qualify as).  Besides, the book is BORING.  DULL.  THIN (tonnage of
felled forests not withstanding).  If you need a good book to get to
sleep with, this is the one; but lets not call it science fiction,
fer Crissakes! There's nothing scientific about it. It's
cops-and-robbers, cowboys-and-indians, good-guys-and-bad-guys,
Rambo-and-VC-and-CIA xenophobia camp. It's something the general
public may eat up right now, but I expect something better from
science fiction. The only way I could see it as a movie would be as
a spoof on the plastic monster movies from Japan.

I finished it, but didn't like it.  I give it three-and-a-half
turkeys. It would have been 4 if it were any longer.  The sequel
gets 4 right off the bat for being a sequel to such a wretched
writing.

------------------------------

From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 6 Dec 85 13:02:25 GMT

kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell) writes:
>Apropos of the discussion on dirty diapers and dog messes being
>disgusting because of their connection to living matter, I just
>recently finished reading a book on this very topic, which might be
>of interest to some.  The book is entitle "Life on Man", by Theodor
>Rosebury.  Don't rush down to your local bookstore to look for it,
>though--it was published in the 1960's, and I found it in a used
>bookstore.  I expect you could find it in a library, though.

Kim,
        I think the book is still available, at least here in the
UK: I bought a copy a couple of years ago in paperback.  I'll post
bibliographic details in a couple of days, all being well.

                                                Kay.
                                ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985 08:09:09-PST
From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM
Subject: re: name that story

From Louis Steinberg:
> 1) Two agents for competing powers crashland on a primative planet.
> ... one agent (the protagonist) doesn't know
> any linquistics but does know about airplanes, and the competing
> agent does know a lot about linguistics.

Unfortunately, I don't know the author, but I remember this story,
and I liked it, so I have to jump in here anyway.  The title, I'm
virtually certain, is "Something to Say" (or something very close).
The linguist learns the language, and is able to talk to the
natives, and is quite distressed to find that the natives prefer her
opponent, who can't speak coherently, although he's taught them to
make better airplanes.  He can't talk to them: but unlike her, he's
got something to say...  I believe it was in Analog (probably back
in the mid 70s, since my collection has gone largely unread since
then).

I also remember the other story, but I don't know author, title,
time, or place.  Sigh.

Dave Butenhof
ZKO2-3/K06
Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062
clt::butenhof
butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
{allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-clt!butenhof

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 85 00:50:34 EST
From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} <quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: answer to story request
To: steinberg@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

>From: Louis Steinberg <STEINBERG@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
>2) Time travel has been invented, but you have to be REAL CAREFUL
>back then or you will change the future.  Expeditions are mounted
>to the past to hunt dinosaurs, but only after very careful study of
>the particular dinosaur being hunted to make sure killing it won't
>have major effects.  The protagonist is a klutz who panics, steps
>off the approved path (a walkway somehow levitated off the
>ground?), kills a butterfly, and goes back to his normal time to
>find much changed - his first hint is when he sees signs with
>strange spellings.

This one is "The Sound of Thunder", a short story by Ray Bradbury...
and possibly (Im not sure I remember that far back) my first intro
to science fiction. Very powerful for a 11 year old kid.

/amqueue

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks also to the following people who
submitted similar information:

Brett Slocum (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS.ARPA)
Vince Fuller (Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU)
jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
]

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 07:08:45-CST
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #450

Re - Hank Buurman's request for info on "blue in the half-moons":
This is an old rascist code for mixed white/black ancestry which is
supposed to result in a blue shading to the pale half moon at the
base of the fingernails, popular as a "test" in days of the KKK in
the old South.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 10:50:58-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Earth Abides Query

The issue hinted at by Em's blue fingernails is that she had a
certain amount of - ahem - "coloured" blood.  Recall that the novel
was published at a time before it was widely realised that
everyone's blood was red, and when several states still tried to
enforce "miscegenation" laws.  Having been brought up in colonial
Africa, where similar attitudes were prevalent, I found this
particular scene between Ish and Em very moving.

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (KEITH VAGLIENTI)
Subject: Re: twilight zone
Date: 9 Dec 85 15:32:42 GMT

I have to disagree. I thought that "The Beacon" segment was more
along the lines of "Night Gallery" than "Twilight Zone."  TZ always
had a sense of eith cosmic justice or cosmic irony. This had
neither. The doctor certainly didn't deserve his fate. As a TZ
episode I disliked this segment immensely.

On the other hand, I thought "One Life, Furnished in Early Poverty"
was a successful attempt at recreating the old feel of TZ. Ellison
did an excellent job of capturing the "you can't go back" theme that
appeared so often in the early series. I think Ellison makes an
excellent writer for TZ and hope he stays with it. I'm glad to see
that he is being allowed to do stories like has thinks they should
be done. The way his work has been butched in the past ("The
Starlost" and other series) I was surprised that he decided to work
on another TV project but am glad he did.

Keith Conrad Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv

------------------------------

From: gitpyr!gt3191b@caip.rutgers.edu (McAllister, Daniel G.)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe
Date: 9 Dec 85 04:26:50 GMT

How about a 1985 English version (or a close proximity thereof) to
this "magical" concoction.  I, too would like to experience this
wiping out of my frontal lobe.

(I swear, with some people you have to be so careful how you chose
your words you could strangle them for wasting your time.  It's
about time someone realize that English is at best an imperfect
language and that the literal meaning of most of what we say is not
what we want to say.  "If only you didn't play stupid SO OFTEN,
maybe I could believe it wasn't true!")

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Ism in writing and censorship
Date: 7 Dec 85 02:03:03 GMT

WARNING:  THIS THING IS LONG!  (Over 100 lines)

RTaylor.9993iLONS@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA writes:

>From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan)
>>What Heinlein wrote for teenaged females in 1962 was appropriate
>>*for the time*.  What it says is, "-Hey, the future isn't going to
>>be all that different from the present; women will fill the same
>>roles they always have, and (1962) males' assumptions of what
>>those roles are will remain unchallenged-".
>
>Not necessarily so.  Even uncritical readers (or listeners or
>watchers, for those not old enough to read yet) notice differences
>or contradictions in what they see and hear in real life and
>fiction.  It is our responsibility as adults and parents to ensure
>that the difference is there to detect!

Lots of people want to stamp out another book for its 'ism':
HUCKLEBERRY FINN.  Only problem is they're defeating themselves:
FINN was *panning* racism, deliberately including it, but in such a
way as to make it look stupid.  [Or was that TOM SAWYER?  I never
did read the originals, rather than the united confusion by other
writers.] <- I admit my deficiencies, at least

>I intend to either have Andy read Podkayne or read it to him--and I
>expect to use it as a means and an opening to questions, and/or
>comments from him both at the time and at some future time.

Thank the Witness that someone wants their kid to be able to think!!!

>This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing.  I don't want to see
>reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men,
>too) have fought to eliminate for so long.

Neither do I.  But it struck me that Podkayne wasn't the
stereotypical girl; I read her comments as being ``most men have
weak minds.  Encourage the poor dumb brutes, then do what you
want''.  Which is pretty much what Heinlein's been saying openly in
his more recent books.  Also see below.

>>My theory is that 80% of a child's unconcious attitudes and
>>personality are formed before they start school, and they are at
>>the 95% point by the time they are 7 or 8 or 9.  The remainder
>>comes slowly.  Concious changes to their attitudes and personality
>>come later, and can be significant--if they are willing to expend
>>the effort (I did some, when I was in college--talk about EFFORT!)

Worthwhile effort.  I've been making it a habit to try to let my
attitudes be malleable.  Whether I've succeeded or not (yet) is
debatable....

>> I graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then
>> was still steering girls away from math.  What does Podkayne say?
>> "-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do
>> know math, don't let anyone know about it.  Men are such fragile
>> creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-"

Let me give the author of the above blurb comment the male angle,
from one who has tried to analyze his own motives.  'Fraid Poddy's
right. Most men are too caught up in the macho fallacy to be able to
accept that which lies outside it (i.e. smart women who can leg it
with a man). I never had to fight that fallacy until I encountered
it in third grade (I was in an LD group in grades 1 & 2: I was
``hyperactive''.  Somehow the petty racisms and sexisms didn't get a
chance to surface; maybe the attitude of ``who cares if you're
classed LD; you can do it as well as anyone else'' helped. . .) and
from then on I didn't worry that much about defending my beliefs to
the savages; I merely defended by beliefs FROM the savages, so as
not to pick up sexist/racist attitudes.

To cure the problem, heal society.  INCLUDING WOMEN: many women
still feel, even if they work, that the macho-male-ruler image is
still valid.  (I've known some.  You can't convince them that sexual
equality is desireable.  Mainly because it's much easier not to have
to think. . .)  But sexism DOES show up a fatal weakness in men;
they can't adjust to changing mores, especially the acceptability of
traditionally ``lesser'' groups (women, minorities) as equals.
(Screw 'em.  Forth Humanity, to Hell with the provincials.)

>>   This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men!

Strike ``equality''; insert ``equality POTENTIAL''.  Give people a
chance.  But most just can't handle it; we can't all be Da Vinci or
Marie Curie.  No, it's not ``fair'' that some are less than others
(weak-minded men in particular), but ``life's a bitch and then you
die''.  Nobody ever said it would be ``fair''.

This is longer than I expected, but I do get a bit upset about
prevailing attitudes.

ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNet
(ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA)
..decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery (..ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St., Mentor, OH 44060 (I moved)
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032 -- MCI MAIL BALLBERY

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Dec 85 0938-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #459
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 12 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 459

Today's Topics:

              Books - Anthony & Card & Ford & Green &
                      Simak & Wilhelm & Request Answered,
              Films - Star Trek: The Wrath of Kahn,
              Radio - Ruby,
              Television - Dr. Who,
              Miscellaneous - Feminism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Obscure books (Chthon)
Date: 8 Dec 85 21:39:00 GMT



bill@sigma.UUCP writes:
>ivanlan@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>>anthony's first or second novel was called 'chthon.'  it was
>>about *someone* kidnapped from earth....
>
>Whoa! If this is "Chthon" of Hvee, the minionettes, chimera, and
>the god of the underworld (caverns), you've got the wrong
>description!
>
>If this is another "Chthon", could you tell me about it?

--well, I would if I remembered it; I didn't say it was about a
dentist.  I only said it was about someone who was kidnapped (but I
could have been wrong about the from Earth part).  I remember the
cover--it was done by the same fellow who did the cover for the
first edition of Silverberg's thorns (both were published by
Ballantine).  and *all* I remember of the plot is the kidnapping,
and something about >underground caverns.  Is your Chthon by Piers
Anthony?  if so, it is the same book and my memory could use
updating (tell me about your Chthon...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 85 18:27:10 est
From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa
Subject: Ender's Game

>From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton)
>By the way, ENDER'S GAME is one of the finest novels I've read in a
>while. The premise is not a new one now: A wargames simulation that
>is much more than it appears to be. But Card's writing style is
>disciplined and highly readable. And the tenderness and brutality
>with which he handles his characters can be quite moving. Right
>now, hardcover only, TOR. The paperback is due in early 1986, along
>with the sequel, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD.

Well, the publication I do reviews for got a review copy of the
paperback early last week. The printing history lists first
paperback printing as January 1986, but I suspect it is available in
stores now. BTW, I totally agree with the above review and intend to
say basically the same thing in mine. There hasn't been a lot of
good SF in novel length lately, this was a nice surprise.

                           James Turner
                           (The Ringworld Engineer)
ARPA  ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA
       decvax  \
       sri-unix \
UUCP             !cca!ringwld!jmturn
       ima      /
       linus   /
MAIL   329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: John M. Ford
Date: 10 Dec 85 10:21:24 GMT

> From: jhunix!ins_amap
> Which makes me think to ask, has Mr. Ford published any
> Alternities Corporation stories since "Slowly By, Lorena" in IASFM
> some time (years) ago?  They were the best things the magazine
> published under Scithers, other than maybe the "Adventures in
> Unhistory" by I believe Algis Budrys.  Have the Alternities
> stories been anthologised?  Where?

I only know of one Alternities, Inc. story since "Lorena".  For the
record, the series consists of:

"Mandalay"              IASFM (Oct 1979)
"Out of Service"        IASFM (Jul 1980)
"Slowly By, Lorena"     IASFM (Nov 1980)
"Intersections"         IASFM (Oct 26 1981)

A couple of them may have appeared in the various anthologies culled
from IASFM that Davis Publications did as digest-sized paperbacks
and Dial Press did as hardcovers. I don't believe that any of them
have been otherwise anthologized. There certainly hasn't been a
collection of them.

And the "Adventures in Unhistory" were written by Avram Davidson.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Obscure books
Date: 7 Dec 85 21:53:00 GMT

>From: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA
>Another book in a similar vein is "Conscious Interplanetary",
>author forgotten.  A "Conscious" is like a doctorate degree given
>to specially trained people.  These individuals are literally the
>"conscious" of the human race as they judge whether a habitable
>planet contains intelligent life.  If not, the humans move in and
>wipe out all alien life.  If so, the planet is left alone.  This
>proves to be an immense responsibility because of the moral versus
>economic/population/political factors involved.  The adventures in
>the book are quite entertaining.
>
>I would appreciate pointers to either of the above books.

That's "conscience."  The book is "Conscience Interplanetary," by
one Joseph Green, the same Joe Green who wrote "The Mind Behind the
Eye" (DAW) and "Star Probe" (ACE).  I turned around to get the stats
on my copy, and found it gone.  I am pretty sure it was published by
DAW.  I liked the book because it had some fresh thinking on
australopithecines and paranthropus robustus (or gracile and robust
australopithecines, if you prefer), at least for the time.  This was
before Mike Bishop became a big star by writing anthropological sf.
Green's "conscience" stories, as i recall, came out in F&SF (maybe
Analog, too, though that doesn't seem quite right), and later were
re-written slightly to make up the book.  Check used book stores...

ivan van laningham

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Dec 85 19:06:55 EST
From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@CSNET-SH.ARPA>
Subject: Way Station....

In reading old SF-Lovers, I noticed that rtaylor@radc-multics
described an unusual situation regarding the book "Way Station" by
Clifford Simak in the book club edition.  Specifically, this
person's spouse who normally had non-SF tastes in their reading
picked up this book and could not put it down until they had
finished.

I found this interesting.  My spouse's tastes normally run to lurid
biographical books about recently dead celebrities and mainstream
novels (if they are popular enough) with an occasional dash of
horror thrown in.  She is much more likely to be found in front of
the TV set (bad influence on me, I'm afraid) than reading anything
other than the New York Times, and has a collection of the TV Guide
premier issues dating back to 1960 or so.  Yet when this book
arrived, she picked it up, and eagerly devoured it.  It was almost
as if it were a book describing how Marilyn Monroe had arranged to
have Robert Kennedy assassinated before her suicide which was really
a murder, complete with photographs, and an appendix full of TV
Trivia.

Now I recall this book.  I thought it wasn't bad, but it also wasn't
spectacular.  Is it possible that the Science Fiction Book Club has
impregnated this book with some sort of chemical which attracts
non-SF fans?  Does the dust jacket contain subliminal messages for
readers which insist, in type only visible in the infrared spectrum
that this book is not really an SF book?  Is it total coincidence?

Does anyone have any explanation for this?

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!kishore2@caip.rutgers.edu (K.Singhal - Systems Design)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 9 Dec 85 17:31:36 GMT

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>rhw9906@wucec2.UUCP (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr) writes:
>>  On the subject of cloning societys, anybody ever read "Where
>>Late the Sweet Birds Sang" by Kate Wilheim(?)? It was a VERY good
>>treatment of a society set up by cloning, and included the loss of
>>originality/creativity in the clones.
>Pardon me, but I thought "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" was
>perfectly awful.  A micro plot summary: first half: clones are
>superior; second half: clones are inferior.  The clones failed in
>the second half in the same way they triumphed in the first.
>Either half alone was plausible; the combination was not.

You have missed the point of Wilhelm's(sp?) story then.  The clones
were supposed to carry on from the non-clones who could not
reproduce.  They were supposed to allow the human race to continue.
Instead with each successive clone generation they diverged from
what they were orinally were supposed to do.  They lost their
humanity.  They lost those traits also which are important but not
readily pinned down, such as creativity, and artistic ability, and
adapability.

I felt that "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" was an excellent book,
I have read it through several times, and still find it good.

S. Lang
Dept. of Systems Design Eng.
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 85 14:54:09 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #453
From: hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

        "SPACE PRISON" by Tom Godwin is the book John Woolley is
looking for.
        The ship wasn't attacked by pirates, but by enemy aliens
(Gerns), who enslaved all the people that had skills they wanted and
marooned the rest on 'Ragnerock', a barely habitable planet.  The
mockers were telepathic squirrels found there. There is a sequel,
"THE SPACE BARBARIANS".  I have enjoyed these two books very much.
Recommended reading for EE Smith and John Campbell fans.

Clark Hallgren

------------------------------

From: Chris McMenomy <christe@rand-unix.ARPA>
Date: 11 Dec 85 14:22:57 PST (Wed)
Subject: ABC's showing of Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan

 *** SPOILER WARNING: This discusses some of the scenes in TWoK ***
 *** in detail and may bother people who haven't seen the movie.***

When ABC aired TWoK, they showed the expanded version (it's about
twelve minutes longer).  The additional scenes are all short, but
some are pretty important.

One takes place as Kirk comes aboard the Enterprise for the
inspection tour: the young cadet Peter defends the Engineering
department as the best in StarFleet and Scotty acknowledges to Kirk
that Peter is his "sister's youngest".  This scene was left out of
the theater release and Scotty's relationship with the cadet is thus
unexplained for the whole movie.  I was really glad it got back in.

The second "additional" scene is a pan of the bridge when Scotty
shows up with Peter in his arms after the first attack by Khan.
Everyone is in shock (they all know it's Scotty's nephew), and even
Spock closes his eyes, indicating his own emotional pain--important
because we are now dealing with the new, unified Spock who has
accepted both parts of his biological heritage.

The third scene I remember is after the search party is rescued from
the inside of the asteroid.  Kirk is being escorted to the bridge by
Spock, and they are using the ladders between decks because all the
elevators are out.  Kirk remarks "That young man is my son," to
which Spock, ever tactful, replies "Fascinating".  This is the only
explanation Kirk gives Spock.

I suspect there are a few more scenes I don't recall at the moment,
but they were all pretty short.

ST:TMP was also aired with extra minutes.  I think they were all
dialogue, and I remember at the time that they made a whole lot of
difference to the movie; the characters were more developed than the
theater release gave them credit for.

Christe

PS: James Doohan has been traveling around Southern California
lately to various Walden BookStores to publicize the latest release
of new ST videocassettes--and signing books.  We caught him at a
lull in the lines at the Westside Pavilion in West LA and he
admitted TWoK was his favorite of the three movies.  Sorry, I didn't
have time to ask about the new movie.... sigh.  Anyway, check your
local bookstores for publicity --it was a lot nicer than trying to
track him down at a Con.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985 20:26:15-PST
From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Celeste DTN522-2590 CX01-1/P23
From: NERMAL::WOOD)
Subject: Ruby II

I confess that my posting about "Ruby" was my first posting and I
may have been a little overzealous.  "Ruby" is excellent.  I would
rate it with five stars or +4, whatever scale you wish.  The day I
wrote my posting I had just recieved "Ruby II".  I was listening to
it, but it took a couple of days.

"Ruby II" is 65 -5 minute episodes.  The begining was interesting
and I thought they had an good plot going.  However, episode 20 was
the first hint of something Silly.  I figured it was just a 'filler'
episode, but I was wrong.  Episode 35 really started the
disappointing trend and of the last 20 episodes I think that only
half were relevant to the original plot (37, 38, 39, 42, 44, 53, 54,
56, 62, 63, and 64).

"Ruby II" is not a total waste of time, but I think I will have to
listen to the story without some of the distracting and silly
episodes to really appreciate it.  On a scale of -4 to +4 I would
give it 0.

(minor spoiler)
There are no "Android Sisters" since they have a recording contract
with MGMG.
 A lot of the original characters are there - And/Or, Teru, Rodant,
and Ruby.  A few new characters are present also - Ruby II, Sam and
Sal (Robots), a Tookah, and "The Digital Dentist".

Celeste Wood

------------------------------

From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Interruption of Dr. Who (Space Museum)
Date: 10 Dec 85 21:37:00 GMT

Apparently, during New Jersey Network's showing of "The Space
Museum" on Saturday night, Channel 50's transmitter blew a fuse.
Therefore, we in New York City, who don't get 23, 52, or 58, were
unable to watch past the first half hour (and it seemed like an
excellent episode :-( ).

I called NJN today to ask if they could repeat the story, but they
said that they were only licensed to show the story ONCE on the
Network, so they couldn't repeat it.  However, as the entire story
was not broadcast on 50, it seems that, legally, there is no real
problem.

Hopefully, the Network will, in that case, repeat the story either
before or after "The Chase" next Saturday.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4
(NYU) percus.acf4
(UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 85 11:34 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Feminism & SF: Comments from ...

(I won't include the text, it's too long.)
Dear Anthony,

I think that anti-feminist feelings are not often expressed because
many SF & fantasy readers are among the enlightened on this topic.
On the question of fairness, I believe that as long as people
believe that life isn't fair, and don't do anything about it, it
will be remain unfair. Feminism doesn't claim that men and women
aren't different, only that women aren't inferior.  I certainly
think that women are specialized (any of you men tried to give birth
lately, Omni not withstanding?), but that doesn't mean that
childbearing is the only thing they can do.  In regards to the woman
vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what a 5' 6" martial artist
can do against a group of the most awesome brawlers with weapons? I
have, and I treat them with respect (male or female).  In tactics of
many sorts, I prefer the swift, maneuverable attacker to the
lumbering armored one. (Blackthorne's ship vs. the Black ship in
Shogun, X-wings vs. Deathstar in Star Wars : The Last Hope, Guerilla
warfare vs. British square in the Am. Revolution (not armored, but
fits the bill anyway), etc.)

In conclusion, I find the values of feminism to fit well with my
own. I enjoy feminist SF and fantasy because people are emphasized,
not the latest whiz-bang, be it magic or technology.  Feminist
authors hold my interest better.  Therefore, I read them more often
and enjoy them more.

BTW, feminism is not restricted to women (e.g. Alan Alda), just as
male chauvinism is not resticted to men (e.g. Phyllis Schafly).

     Brett Slocum (a male feminist)
     Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Dec 85 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #460
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 12 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 460

Today's Topics:

                Books - Adams & Bailey & Campbell &
                        Dick & Heinlein & "Enemy Mine" & 
                        Story Request,
                Films - Enemy Mine,
                Miscellaneous - Computer Graphics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Gargle Blaster (actually 4-book
Date: 9 Dec 85 20:22:00 GMT

>>... the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy (which has 4
>>books to it - only Douglas Adams would have the chutzpah to do
>>this)...
> Four-or-more book "trilogies" are not _nearly_ as uncommon as
> you seem to believe...  In fact, authors with the will-power to
> stop after writing a trilogy are rare.  Lots of series started out
> as trilogies.

But HHGTTG isn't one of them. It started out as one book, which was
so successful that a sequel was written, and then another sequel, at
which point people took to calling it a trilogy. It was never
intended as a trilogy.
                        Scott McEwan
                        {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 02:35:55-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Feminism and SF (Robin Bailey)

[Catching up on some old business...]

> From: Jessie Tharp <ops@ncsc>
> For several years, I have been reading and collecting science
> fiction by and about women, in order to compile and code a list of
> women science fiction authors.  [...]  + Robin Bailey [...]

I didn't notice if anyone mentioned this before, but Robin Bailey is
a man. At least he was the last time I saw him at a convention.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 02:42:45-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Campbell basis for Heinlein novel

> From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA   (Selden Ball)
> I distinctly remember reading an article saying that this
> [Heinlein's SIXTH COLUMN --- jmb] was based on a short novel by
> John Campbell. I could swear that Campbell's story was recently
> (within the past 5 years) printed in a collection of his
> unpublished works, but I couldn't find it when I went looking for
> it last night. jayembee?

You're thinking of "All", published in THE SPACE BEYOND, Pyramid
Books, 1976.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 85 14:43 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: PKD discussions...

I heartily recommend Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by PKD.
It was the basis for the movie Blade Runner (for those of you living
in a box) and it deals with the issue of machine intelligence to a
greater and slightly bizarre degree.  I enjoyed it more than the
movie, although I think Ridley Scott did a marvelous job with Blade
Runner (and we all like Harrison, don't we?).

Someone mentioned that PKD had some interesting religous notions,
and a short story to illustrate this was in Omni a while ago and is
reprinted in a Best of Omni (lots of good stuff).  The name is
Rutvarra's Case and concerns a space wreck where everyone died
except for a woman's brain.  The aliens are accused of performing
immoral experiments on this barely living brain.  Lots of religious
experiences via direct stimulation.  This is a story to make people
sit and think.  As a matter of fact, I think I need to read it
again.

Toodles,
Jon

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1985 15:48:04 EST (Wed)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.ARPA>
Subject: Re: JOB - Mini Review from a UK viewpoint
To: stc!pete@ru-caip.ARPA

>From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu
>    ... Heaven/Hell sequence is good fun.

Heinlein's treatment of Heaven and Hell, and possibly the entire
book, imitates James Branch Cabell's *Jurgen*, which you might guess
since both are subtitled *A Comedy of Justice*.  If you want to know
who Koshchei really is, read it.  (Read it anyway, it's a great
fantasy.)  But good luck finding a copy.  I don't know if it's in
print now; mine is from a used-book stall.

Dan Hoey

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 85 08:50:34 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: An opinion of "Enemy Mine" (the book)
From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

  (In light of all the hooraw about "reviews" and "criticisms" being
raised on this net, I wanted to give this piece a different
descriptive word; hence, "opinion")

  *** WARNING: THIS OPINION IS ABSOLUTELY LACED WITH SPOILERS! ***

  OK, I admit it, see?  I freely confess to being a xenophile -- I
happen to LIKE aliens. Call it a weakness, but I've always been very
fond of stories where human and alien are able to forge some sort of
non-hostile relationship. You know, like Han and Chewie, or
Truzenzuzex and Bran Tse-Mallory (from the Humanx Commonwealth
stories of Alan Dean Foster). Or, more to the point, like Willis E.
Davidge, Human, and Jeriba Shigan, Drac, the protagonists of this
wonderful book.

  Granted, their relationship isn't exactly "non-hostile" to start
with, what with the two of them trying their level best to kill each
other.  Humans and the reptilian Dracs are at war, but neither side
is able to get much of an advantage. This leaves small squadrons of
fighters battling it out in the border areas, which include the
setting of this story, a world named Fyrine IV. Both Willy Davidge
and "Jerry" Shigan are fighter pilots, who manage to shoot each
other down while dogfighting in Fyrine IV's atmosphere.

  Once the two are on the ground, however, the story really begins.
Survival being the usual first order of business, simply obtaining
food and shelter (from periodic meteor attacks) consumes most of
their time and energy. Once the basic necessities are taken care of,
the two really start to communicate. It takes time, of course, as
neither initially speaks the other's language. In the end, though,
it is the striking commonality of certain philosophical ideas,
despite differences in cultural backgrounds, that cements this
relationship.

  It will be a great help in understanding these philosophical ideas
if you happen to be an afficionado of Disney and Warner Brothers
cartoons.

  Reading this book is an absorbing thing. You realize that the two
initially suspicious beings really *are* capable of lowering the
barriers of mistrust and prejudice that they brought with them to
this world. It takes hard work (what relationships don't?), but the
two of them make it work. If you're the kind of person that insists
on metaphors in the stories you read, then you'll find the metaphors
in this story are upbeat. The story demonstrates that no matter how
wide the supposed gap that separates you from your "enemy", you'll
find enough similarities to bridge that gap.

  In the final analysis, my opinion is that "Enemy Mine" is best
called a love story. Not a love story in the *physical* sense, mind
you (although there are some wonderfully close moments between the
two characters), but a real love story, nonetheless. As Jerry lies
dying in childbirth, it has Willy swear that the new child will, in
due course, be presented to the High Council on Drac. The loyalty
that Davidge shows in honoring this last wish, through enormous
difficulties, clearly reflects the love that he holds for his lost
friend. Born of strife it may have been, but the friendship between
these two "brothers-in-life" is a real and loving one.

  If you're a xenophile too, I urge you to read this book. The movie
version is due out around Christmastime. I can hardly wait.

  Side note: I can't help wondering about the last name of the
human, Davidge. Is is it a coincidence that it is the first name and
first two letters of the last name of David Gerrold, one of the
co-authors?

  "Enemy Mine", a novel by Barry B. Longyear and David Gerrold, from
the screenplay by Edward Khmara, based on the story by Barry
Longyear.  Charter Books.

Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 85 08:00 CST
From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Story Search

My fiancee is trying to find out the title and author of a book she
read about 10 years ago.  She remembers that it was like an ACE
Double, novella in length and flip the book over.

Plot synopsis:
  It involved a future when pyramid power has developed to the point
that massive power stations are possible, tapping into the Earth's
magnetic field or something.  A scientist working on the project
finds evidence that this has been done before by a previous
civilization.  Story goes into a flashback.

  Flashback: In the distant past, the supercontinent before
continental drift is called Atlantis.  Pyramid power stations supply
power for everything. This civilization is just building a couple
new ones on the north and south poles in order to send a starship
out of the solar system.  Massive earthquakes and other geologic
activity result. The stress causes the supercontinent to break up.
Two scientists escape in the ship that was being launched.  They
come back a long time later and civilization has fallen into
barbarism.  The rest of the story is an account of the events in the
Old Testament from these scientists points of view.

Other details: Non-interference directive, a scientist named Lucifer
breaks Non-interference Directive, The Great Flood is caused by
readjusting the Earth's orbit, put out of whack by the cataclysm
(sp), radio-controlled Arks all over the world.

These are the details that she remembers. We would appreciate any
help in this matter. Thanks in advance.

Brett Slocum
Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA

------------------------------

Subject: Enemy Mine
From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer)
Date: 12 Dec 85 03:15:00 +0100

Hi, folks,

here's a short review of a German sf movie I just saw.

The movie is called 'Enemy mine - geliebter Feind'. It is about to
be released here in Germany (I saw it in a preview), and it will
definitely be shown over there in the US, but I don't know of any
timeframe for that.

The movie is by Wolfgang Petersen, a German director who also did
_Das Boot_ (don't know the American title, it's a submarine story of
WW II), and _The Neverending Story_, a tale/fantasy movie after the
book by Michael Ende.

The story of the movie is great, but sometimes it gets really
melodramatic, and then it looses.

The acting and the special effects are also very good. Some of the
special effects were done by ILM (the star fight at the beginning),
but others are also great, like some of the aliens on the planet,
and the masks of the aliens, also.

On a scale of +4 to -4, I give that film a rating of +2.5.

And here is how the story goes:

(Introduction to the theme - only mild spoilers)

The plot is settled at the end of the 21th century, mankind has
developed FTL travel and has pioneered other systems.

But there are difficulties: one of the most promising systems is
owned by a race of reptiles, and they don't want to let men in.  So
a star war starts ...

The protagonist is a fighter gunner in that war, stationed in some
space station in a far away system. One day they get out for a
fight, and they shoot down an alien fighter, whose pilot can land on
a planet. They too have to try a landing, but the other guy in the
human spacecraft gets killed at that. So the human and the alien are
alone on a wild and unexplored planet, but they are enemies, and
they don't even understand each other's language.

This takes about 15 minutes of film time to happen, and the real
theme of the movie is ready to start ...

Here comes the whole story:

              (******* SPOILER WARNING *******)

The human buries his comrade, and he seeks the wreck of the alien
fighter. He finds it, and the alien too, and he tries to kill the
alien, but he is captured. The night after this, when both are
asleep, many meteors start falling around them, and the human wakes
the alien up so that they can seek shelter between some rocks.

In the following days, the human is the captive and the slave of the
alien. But gradually their hostility ceases, and they slowly start
to understand each other. After some adventures with the nature of
the planet, they learn each other's language and start to understand
each other in some way.

Days later, the human decides to go and seek some help. The alien
want's to stay at the primitive hut they built, and the human can't
talk him into coming along. So he goes alone.

He even finds some signs that humans must have been at some place
(he discovers a pepsi tin ...), but he finds out that these must
have been so-called 'scavengers' (spelling?), who are humans that
hold the aliens as slaves. So he goes back to the hut.

In the meantime it's winter, and when he comes back the alien tells
him that he's pregnant. The aliens are some kind of monosexuals.
During the birth, the alien dies.

So the human raises the alien baby, and some day the scavengers come
back. He goes alone to look for them. Days later, the young alien
runs to the scavenger's ship to see some people of his own kind. He
gets captured by the scavengers, and the human, who runs after him,
gets nearly shot, but he is rescued by a military rescue unit, that
accidentally comes along (that's a little bit too much luck, I think).

Back in the space station, the high officers of the secret service
get nervous, because he has been missing for three years, and
because he speaks in the language of the aliens as he lies there in
unconsciousness, and they think he's an alien spy.

After he's well again, he steals a fighter, shoots the doors of the
hangar open and lands on the planet to rescue the slaved aliens and
his friend's son. But he is detected by the scavengers and only
succeeds after some of his friends from his unit come and help him
(Great showdown inside the mining ship of the scavengers).

                  (****** END OF SPOILER *******)
cheers
Ralf Bayer
Computing Center at the Technical University of Darmstadt
Federal Republic of Germany  ( West Germany )

------------------------------

From: houligan!daemon@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3
Date: 10 Dec 85 00:34:40 GMT

>> BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start
>> out each episode?  I was quite impressed with the realistic
>> surface textures and was especially amazed by the knight in
>> shining armor.
>       The "Amazing Stories" opener was done by Robert Abel and
> Associates.  I suspect that the chrome on the knight is the same
> chrome used on the sexy robot in "Brilliance", the commercial they
> did for American Can.

I just got to see a "behind the scenes" video about how these
commercials, plus the Rotatract razor ad, were made, when I started
working here (Gould Computer Systems, Ft Lauderdale).  They like to
show it to all the new people, as the Abel crew used Gould
number-crunchers to generate the images.  It was only appropriate
that I hadn't had time to watch an episode of Mazing yet, what with
moving and all (but I have them all on tape).  Although it's not
evident (to me, at least) in the titles, the promo I saw showed a
closeup of the book, and it even has a "leather-grain" binding.
Very highly detailed graphics!

tgi
Personal: Craig Strickland (alias "tgi")
Financial:Gould Computer Systems Division, UNIX Development
Physical: PO Box 409148, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33340-9148
Vocal:    305/587-2900 x5014
UUCP:     {brl-bmd,ccvaxa,pur-ee,sun}!csd-gould!midas!tgi
          decvax!sii!trixie/
Other:    CompuServe: 76545,1007
          Source: BDQ615
          Telex: 650-272-3350

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 85 1252-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #461
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 461

Today's Topics:

          Books - Edwards & Harrison & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                  Saberhagen & Wolfe (3 msgs) &
                  Author Request & An Author Request Answered,
          Radio - Ruby,
          Television - Star Trek (2 msgs),
          Miscellaneous - Immortality & Feminism (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Kelley Edwards
Date: 12 Dec 85 15:41:57 GMT

[Catching up on some old business...]

> From: im4u!jsq        (John Quarterman)
> Does anyone know of any sf written by Kelly Edwards?  He mostly
> wrote short stories, I think.  Anybody know who he really is?

I've only been able to find two citations for Kelley [sic] Edwards:

"Radiation"     Astounding Science Fiction (4/52)
"Counterspy"    Astounding Science Fiction (12/53)

I've seen nothing in any of my references to indicate that Kelley
Edwards isn't the author's real name.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat series
Date: 12 Dec 85 17:04:36 GMT

> From: reed!kamath     (Sean Kamath)
> BTW: Does anyone know if the original Stainless Steal Rat stories
> were published by Bantam Books?

Only THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT WANTS YOU and THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT
FOR PRESIDENT. The others were published by a variety of publishers:

THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT was first published by Pyramid (paperback),
then by Walker (hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback).

THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S REVENGE was first published by Walker
(hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback).

THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD was first published by
Putnam (hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback).

THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT (a collection of the
previous three novels) was first published by the SF Book Club
(hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1985 09:29:57-EST (Thursday)
From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Eternal Champion

I've read the entire cycle, and I've never heard of any book
following "Silver Warriors."  Perhaps you are thinking of "Phoenix
in Obsidian," the original title.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Third John Daker book
Date: 12 Dec 85 15:38:20 GMT

> From: reed!kamath     (Sean Kamath)
> Also, does anyone know the third book in Michael Moorcock's
> "Eternal Champion" trilogy? (The one that starts out with Erikose
> in the Eternal Champion and continues with Count Urlick in The
> Silver Worriors)

There is no third book in the John Daker series, unless you count
the "graphic novel" (basicly, a comic book with delusions of
grandeur) THE SWORDS OF HEAVEN, THE FLOWERS OF HELL drawn by Howard
Chaykin (currently of AMERICAN FLAGG! fame) from an outline by
Moorcock, and published by HM Communications (publishers of HEAVY
METAL) in 1979.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1985 18:22-EST
From: Mike.Blackwell@ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU
Subject: "Berserker Blue Death" by Fred Saberhagen

Well, it looks like Saberhagen has finally realized that he can make
big bucks by just putting out more Berserker books. His latest (a
Tor trade paperback) is pretty typical of the genre, and I found it
to be overall interesting and a compelling read, with a good
treatment of other than Earth descended humanity (the Carmpan make a
return), and some surprising plot twists. However, I was really
disappointed with the ending (the last 5 pages) - it left me feeling
a little empty and unfulfilled (much as Domingo must have felt,
perhaps...).  I don't want to make this a spoiler, but with all of
the potential that Fourth Adventurer, the Nebulons, Galway, and
Leviathan presented, I think Saberhagen could have done a better job
with the ending than "so they rode off in to the sunset and lived
happily ever after." Oh well, at does leave hooks for about a
billion more Berserker stories. My recommendation is that if you're
a hard core Berserker fan, borrow this book (I don't think it was
worth seven bucks), or hope it comes out in a cheaper edition.

Mike Blackwell
The Robotics Institute, Carnegie-Mellon University

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 06:56:11-CST
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #450

RE - Laurence Roberts' question on Wolfe: Bookspeller Dick Spellman
has mass market hard copies of Free Live Free at CZARKON in St.
Louis and is on the con circuit; catch him almost anywhere.

Regards: Bill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 85 12:16:10 PST
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: The Castle of the Otter

The Castle of the Otter (by Gene Wolfe) is subtitled "a book about
The Book of the New Sun".  A report in Locus mistakenly said that
the fourth book in The Book of the New Sun was to be titled The
Castle of the Otter, and Wolfe liked the name enough to write a book
to fit. In the book, Wolfe talks about how the tetrology was
written, and why it has the form it does. He tells where the
poems and all thoses weird words are from, and what they mean. He
even has each of the main characters (well, all that were willing
to) stand up and tell a joke.  I found it delightful to read, for
Wolfe has a wicked sense of humor. It is available from the Science
Fiction Book Club. If you loved the tetrology , you'll probably
enjoy this. If you haven't read the tetrology, go and get The Shadow
of the Torturer (it's the first book).

Linda Wald

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 85 12:32:32 PST
From: Linda Wald <math.linda@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Free Live Free

     I enjoyed Free Live Free (by Gene Wolfe). Some critics have
complained that the ending was 'tacked on to make it sf' , but I
thought the ending fitted well with the rest of the book. It is
true, however, that the only part that qualifies as sf comes at the
end, so as a whole the book is barely sf.  Don't let that stop you
from reading it - the characters and plot are interesting, and the
writing is excellent. I expect to put it on my Hugo nomination form.
     Free Live Free is out in trade hardcover from Tor. If no
bookstore in your area has it, A Change of Hobbit (1853 Lincoln
Blvd., Santa Monica,Ca 90404) has it in stock (last I checked) and
they do mailorders.

Linda Wald

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 13 Dec 1985 13:01:35-PST
From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (From the terminal of Brendan
From: E. Boelke)
Subject: Author Request

        Does anyone out there know the author and titles of the
stories that have the following background (I think I've got enuff
info) -

        The main character was named Galleger (sp?) who was an
inventor who was the equal of Thomas Alva when drunk.

        One story had a 'Blue Dynamo' (may have been title) which
was a machine sitting in a corner doing nothing.

        Another story concerned a 'bar' which was activated by an
organ style keyboard dispensing the alcohol through a tube.

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: FOR TEXAS AND ZED
Date: 12 Dec 85 11:43:00 GMT

> From: orstcs!richardt (Richard Threadgill)
> I would like to procure a copy of a space opera which I read many
> years ago (1980), which was out of print even then.  The title of
> this rather small paperback was "For Texas and For Zed."  [...]
> If anyone has any info on this book, please mail me.

FOR TEXAS AND ZED was written by Zach Hughes (real name: Hugh
Zachary) and published by Popular Library in 1976. I leave the
finding of a copy to you.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 85 11:49:54 EST
From: Will Martin <wmartin@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: SF Radio (Ruby)

Re the mention in SF-Digest #452 of the ZBS SF radio series "Ruby",
from wood@nermal (at an address I don't think I can mail to):

This has been being aired in the St. Louis, MO region on WSIE-FM
(88.7 MHz, Edwardsville, IL, Tuesdays at 6:30PM). One of their local
announcers mentioned that this series was originally aired some
years back as short "filler" items, about 5 minutes each. If you
listen to the half-hour format shows, you will hear a lot of
repetition and choppiness that bears this out.  The short segments
were re-edited into longer programs.

I do have a specific question: the program schedule from WSIE showed
that the first series of this show was to consist of EIGHT half-hour
episodes.  I have been trying to follow this, and just this week
they aired the SIXTH broadcast, which turned out to be a closing or
wrap-up show, giving the cast credits, and announcing "Ruby 2" would
follow (that is, another series).

The description in the printed program guide for the eighth episode
matches the contents of this program broadcast as number six, though
the dates are, of course, off. So, since WSIE has a history of
sloppiness in program scheduling and adherence to published
schedules, I naturally figured simply that they just had screwed up
again. But my question is -- where? That is, did they get the
published program guide wrong, and there really are only six
episodes in "Ruby 1"? Or did they just get their tapes mixed up, so
that they aired the real eighth episode in place of number six?

Since wood@nermal mentioned that he had the "official" set of
cassettes of this show bought direct from ZBS, please let us know
how many episodes there are in each part of this series, and how
many parts there are in all.  Thanks much!

And as a general comment on SF radio -- yes, it is a good medium for
SF.  Remember, "on radio the pictures are better!"

Regards,
Will Martin
UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin   or
ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 03:23:50-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Star Trek videotapes

> From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU (Frank Hollander)
> The Star Trek videocassettes have been released in the order in
> which they were aired.  However, the numbering is based on the
> order in which they were produced (and aired in syndication).
> Now, a total of 30 have been released, including all from the
> first season as well as the first two from the second season ("Who
> Mourns..." and "Amok Time").  What's interesting about this is
> that the numbering starts with #2 ("The Corbomite Manuever") - an
> indication that Paramount intends to release "The Cage" (the first
> pilot, not aired - the first episode).  I suspect that they are
> looking for a copy of it.  I have seen a black&white copy that
> Gene Roddenberry travels with.  A color version may not exist.
> Regardless, the market for "The Cage" is large.

I believe that I mentioned this back when Paramount released the
first set of tapes in the spring. But I should point out that "The
Corbomite Maneuver" is #3, as it should be, not #2.  "Where No Man
Has Gone Before" is #2, as *it* should be.

> Question?  Did ABC show extra scenes from Star Trek II when they
> aired it? If so, what were they?

Yes, they did add scenes, though they never advertised the fact on
commercials or in TV GUIDE. I didn't tape it since I didn't know
until after the fact that scenes were added, so I can't give you a
run-down about what was added. It seemed to me when I finally saw a
friend's tape that the extra material was pretty inconsequential (as
opposed to the added scenes for the first movie).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: gargoyle!congdon@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Congdon)
Subject: Re: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick
Date: 11 Dec 85 16:47:05 GMT

>From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU
> interesting about this is that the numbering starts with #2 ("The
> Corbomite Manuever") - an indication that Paramount intends to
> release "The Cage" (the first pilot, not aired - the first
> episode).  I suspect that they are looking for a copy of it.  I
> have seen a black&white copy that Gene Roddenberry travels with.
> A color version may not exist.  Regardless, the market for "The
> Cage" is large.

  I recently saw Roddenberry here in Chicago. He said that 1) a
color print of "The Cage" no longer exists. 2) They do plan to
release the pilot eventually, and the blooper film, too!

Richard Congdon
Univ. of Chicago, Dept. of Education
..ihnp4!gargoyle!paideia!{richard,root}

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 06:56:11-CST
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #450

RE - Roz on immortality: Since the world of ideas is infinite and
the world of persons is that large number times the first, how can a
lifetime of any length lead to boredom?  When they start looking the
same to you, expand your point of view and play with the patterns of
sameness, if that wears out, move up another level of generality.  A
true Renaissance Being/Citizen of the Cosmos is incapable of
boredom; temporary ennui perhaps, but never boredom.  Even boredom
is an interesting state of being!

Regards:  Bill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 85 10:53 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Opinionated Male Comments (Warning!)

I like the way Anthony Aristar commented on the feminist discussion
going on.

> Of negative comments there were none...  Of support there was
> much...  I have come away from the discussion feeling that it is
> "simply not done", as the British would say, to mention anything
> which can be construed as anti-feminist in the good US of A.

He also avoided saying anything negative about the whole thing.  I
should like to put forth this explanation for the lack of bad vibes
even though I expect it to burst into flames.

This _is_ America; where free speech and your way of life are your
rights.
                                and
You have never heard flames if haven't heard a burning feminist!

I have experience with rampaging feminists, my mother is one.  When
her and her friends get going, so do I.  Out the door and into a
realm where I can indulge my adolecent male fantasies to my heart's
desire.  This is no two way street that I see.  Many of these types
of people are just as bigoted as their male counterparts.

I think people were just trying to avoid a fight.  And a nasty one
it could be too.  Cheers...

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 06:56:11-CST
From: William DeVaughan <WDEVAUGHAN@STL-HOST1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #450

RE - David Albrecht on teaching kids/Feminism & SF: I DO have kids,
boys twelve and sixteen, and they KNOW I believe women to be persons
and ideas to be unbound by gender (mental, physical, or relational).
I don't "teach them convictions" - I show them mine by being as
genuine as possible and teach them a critical faculty with which to
develop their own convictions, even if (HORRORS) different from my
own.  Flames/kudos to wdevaughan at stl-host1.

Regards: Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Dec 85 1333-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #462
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 85 1333-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #462
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 462

Today's Topics:

       Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anderson & Anthony (3 msgs) &
               Edwards (2 msgs) & Hubbard & Wylie &
               Four Book Trilogies (2 msgs),
       Films - Sherlock Holmes,
       Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ukc!gcb1@caip.rutgers.edu (G.C.Blair)
Subject: Re: Gargle Blaster (actually 4-book
Date: 13 Dec 85 12:46:15 GMT

>>... the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy (which has 4
>>books to it - only Douglas Adams would have the chutzpah to do
>>this)...
>
> Four-or-more book "trilogies" are not _nearly_ as uncommon as you
> seem to believe.....

Hitch-Hiker's is about to fall into the category of "or-more" : a
fifth book is in the pipeline, not alas written by DA, but
co-written by the original co-writer of the first radio series &
someone else. I assume it'll be along similar lines to the current
four books.

If anyone wants info on the HHGttG fanclub, then mail me here at ukc
& I'll let you know anything you want (or so the theory goes),
including where you can get your Towel, etc.

Replies to ....{seismo,...}!mcvax!ukc!gcb1

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 85 19:26 PST
From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, David D
From: <zaphod%wwu.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Re: HGTTH actually 4 books

        HGTTH didn't start as one book, it started as a radio play
that was subsequently turned into the Guide and Restaurant, which
were published at about the same time....

Dave Brown
USPS:  2305 Douglas #9, Bellingham, Wa. 98225
       (206) 647-1312

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Anderson's Time Patrol series
Date: 12 Dec 85 15:33:53 GMT

> From: ritcv!krf7527   (Keith Fieldhouse)

> I'm looking for a list of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories.
> The two that I've read (which are found in a mass market paperback
> book called, I believe, _Time Patrol(men?)_) seemed to indicate
> that more stories existed.  Also I remember seeing a SF Book Club
> book that had other stories but I don't remember what they were.
> If anyone knows of others please let me know where I might find
> them.

The first series of stories about the Time Patrol appeared in the
collection GUARDIANS OF TIME. The original edition (Ballantine,
1960) contained the following stories:

"Time Patrol"           Fantasy & Science Fiction (May 1955)
"Brave to Be a King"    Fantasy & Science Fiction (Aug 1959)
"The Only Game in Town" Fantasy & Science Fiction (Jan 1960)
"Delenda Est"           Fantasy & Science Fiction (Dec 1955)

The revised edition (Tor, 1981) added a fifth story:

"Gibraltar Falls"       Fantasy & Science Fiction (Oct 1975)

And, just to keep things clear, the two stories that make up TIME
PATROLMAN never appeared anywhere but in that book.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Swan)
Subject: Re: Obscure books (Chthon)
Date: 11 Dec 85 16:28:40 GMT

ivanlan@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>is your Chthon by Piers Anthony?  if so, it is the same book and my
>memory could use updating (tell me about your Chthon...)

OK.

It is by Piers Anthony, so we are talking about the same book.  I
consider it one of the better books in my collection, although not
everybody might (some of it might be a little dated).

****slight spoiler follows****

It is the same Chthon. The basic story is the life of a man from his
early childhood until he becomes a "minion" (pun) of the "God" of
the underworld caverns known as Chthon (the prison). It is also the
story of his internal conflict between his "normal" self and his
"inverted emotional" self, a result of his mixed ancestry: half
human and half "minionette".

The story is written alternating between his earlier life "outside"
and his life in the prison caverns, in such a fashion that each part
mirrors the other. For example, the first chapter (I think) starts
with the protagonist's introduction into the prison of Chthon, and
his almost immediate rejection for being taken with a "minionette".
The second harks back to his boyhood, where he first meets the
minionette (named "Malice"?), and is warned by father against them.

William Swan  {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Triple Detente
Date: 9 Dec 85 23:23:30 GMT

raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes:
>>From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
>>... Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have yet to
>>see.  Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA please
>>respond. ...
>I was also looking for "Triple Detente" long ago but could not find
>it.

"Triple Detente" was one of Pierce Anthony's more imaginative books.
_Daw_ DID publish it. I suspect it's out of print for quite a while.
I got mine in a used book store in LA.

I DO know that publishing schedules differ between US and UK. Hey,
SF&F fans accross the ocean! Have YOU seen it?

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Dec 85 16:19:51-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Chthon

There is indeed a book Chthon, by Piers Anthony.  It and its sequel,
Phthor, were published in the Panther Science Fiction series in the
UK, in 1972 and 1978 respectively.  The latter is ISBN 0 586 047700.

The plots do not feature a dentist.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

From: unirot!pooh@caip.rutgers.edu (Pooh)
Subject: Re: Kelley Edwards
Date: 14 Dec 85 18:53:43 GMT

Kelley Edwards happens to be my esteemed daddy, R. Edward Nather
(utastro!nather).

He only published "Radiation" and "Counterspy," and never got around
to finishing a third short story.  The REASON he never got around to
finishing it is that he discovered this nifty thing called netnews.
. .  His stories are pretty good, but what he's REALLY good at is
beef stroganoff. . .

Pooh         (Wendy Nather)
             topaz!unipress!pooh
             topaz!unirot!pooh

------------------------------

From: utastro!nather@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Nather)
Subject: Re: Kelley Edwards
Date: 15 Dec 85 01:40:04 GMT

pooh@unirot.UUCP (Pooh) writes:
> Kelley Edwards happens to be my esteemed daddy,
> R. Edward Nather (utastro!nather).

Wendy! Shame on you!  I TOLD you -- the check is in the mail.
Please don't make up any more hideous stories about me, or I'll make
public the little incident concerning you, Mona, the cobra and the
chocolate mousse ...

Ed Nather
Astronomy Dept, U of Texas @ Austin
{allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!nather
nather@astro.UTEXAS.EDU

------------------------------

From: uwai!neves@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth
Date: 13 Dec 85 18:10:42 GMT

>I found it interesting the author of "Battlefield Earth" is also
>the renoun author,L.Ron Hubbard,the father of the Church of
>Scientology, who in the early 1950's published the best-seller
>"DIANETICS".  And the book's plot closely resembles the the
>Church's "basic" beliefs, which was recently reveiled in the Los
>Angeles Times.

Huh?  Did you read the book?  It is pure space opera, us against the
aliens.  It has no message at all.  If you enjoy SF of the 40's-50's
and big books you'll enjoy Battlefield Earth.  I didn't get bored
reading any of it (that is quite an accomplishment with a 1000+ page
book).  Of course I had to give up one of my weekends to it.

David Neves
Computer Sciences Department
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Usenet:  {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!neves
Arpanet: neves@uwvax

------------------------------

From: dnichols@ti-csl
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 10 Dec 85 22:08:00 GMT

christensen@apollo.uucp
>For an interesting slant on this subject, read "The Disappearance."
>I don't remember the author's name. It was written about 1950 and
>is considered a minor classic.

"The Disappearance" was written by Philip Wylie and I seem to
remember it being quite good. I read it a long time ago.  The story
concerns the sudden disappearance of all the women (or is it men?)
on earth.

*hardcopy*             *electr{onic, ic}*
Dan Nichols
POB 226015 M/S 238
Texas Instruments Inc.
Dallas, Texas
75266
ARPA:  Dnichols%TI-CSL@CSNet-Relay.ARPA
CSNET: Dnichols@Ti-CSL
USENET: {ut-sally,convex!smu,texsun,rice}!waltz!dnichols
VOICE: (214) 995-6090

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe
Date: 12 Dec 85 03:23:25 GMT

Credit where credit is due.  It was Isaac Asimov who thought up the
"fourth book in the trilogy" joke for his Foundation series, which
predates Douglas Adams fourth book, however his publisher Judy Lynn
del Rey talked him out of it.

RJS in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Four book trilogies
Date: 15 Dec 85 08:56:46 GMT

Wrong.

First, FOUNDATION'S EDGE was originally published by Doubleday, so
it wouldn't have been Judy Lynn del Rey that "talked him out of it".

Second, I've seen a reproduction (in SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE,
August 1982, if you want to look it up) of the original proof for
Doubleday's dust jacket for the book that actually said "The fourth
book of the Foundation Trilogy" (someone must have realized it was
stupid and changed it to "The fourth novel in the Foundation Series"
before the book was released).

Third, the joke predates FOUNDATION'S EDGE. When Berkley was issuing
Eric van Lustbader's Sunset Warrior novels in paperback in 1980,
they billed them as "The Sunset Warrior Trilogy". At roughly the
same time, Doubleday published a fourth novel and folks jokingly
referred to it as "the fourth book in the Sunset Warrior Trilogy".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Spielberg movies: Bah! Humbug!
Date: 12 Dec 85 16:48:00 GMT

I know that YOUNG SHERLOCK HOLMES isn't SF except in the very
broadddddest sense, but apropos of Spielberg it seems to fit here.

Hyper-contrived plots,

Slender excuses for so-what special effects,

Lack of internal consistency/logic,

Characterization approximately 1/10" deep, (except for Holmes, who
is maybe 1/2" deep.)

Who is this Spielberg character and why do people keep raving about
him?  His movies are the cinematic equivalent of comic books.  Now,
I'm not saying that all film should be on the level of Literature
(e.g., great Art, of which most attempts are pretentious and
borrr-ing), but can't we have at least the equivalent of decently
written popular fiction?

Truthfully, the film wasn't bad for the first 30 minutes or so,
before the Spielberg touch became pronounced.  Not only were the
special effects nothing special, they were terribly forced, i.e.,
they did not belong there.

And as far as characterization goes, how about the thread of Watson
puzzling with the same Holmes riddle all through the movie, when he
finally solves it.  The riddle?  "A man lives in a square hut with
four windows facing south.  He looks outside and sees the bear.
What color is the bear?"  I think even an addled 9-year old would
get this one at once, rather than struggling for days and days.
Spielberg?  In the words of Dickens, "Bah! Humbug!"

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!cca!ima!jimb  (most reliable)
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
 or   jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response
Date: 12 Dec 85 06:53:00 GMT

gt4395b@gitpyr writes:
>I have never managed to make this drink properly.  If you have any
>success, let me know and I will Hitchhike over to your place to see
>what I have been doing wrong.

Well, it's almost impossible to get quality Santraginean sea water
out here in the backwoods of the galaxy, so a PanGalatic Gargle
Blaster is just not something you're ever going to be able to do up
properly. However, if your looking for a drink with a similar
(although perhaps not as subtle) effect, might I suggest a Moose
River Hummer:

        Mix equal parts Bacardi 151, Peppermint Schnapps, and
        Galliano in a shot glass, and throw it back. CAUTION: never
        sip at it, it will only get mad at you and sip back.

Make sure you've got a ride home.

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780!dianeh

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ugthomas@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas)
Subject: Re: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe
Date: 11 Dec 85 23:12:18 GMT

> How about a 1985 English version (or a close proximity thereof) to
> this "magical" concoction.  I, too would like to experience this
> wiping out of my frontal lobe.

Found this in net.games quite a while ago:

Here's a reposting of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster recipe that
appeared in net.cooks about a year ago.  We served these at the
party, and they were quite popular -- strong, citrusy, and GREEN.

   This recipe was developed by a friend of mine after taking a
mixology course; it has been served to happy hordes at a private
party at the last three Boskones.  For two mild Pan-Galactic
Gargleblasters, put over ice in shaker:
  1.5 jiggers golden or dark rum (That Ol' Janx Spirit)
  .5 jigger Amaretto and .5 triple sec or Curacao
     (Santraginean water?) juice of 1/3 lemon
  1.5 - 2 oz frozen orange juice concentrate
shake, strain into glasses with fresh ice, add ginger ale or tonic
to suit (bubbled-through Fallian marsh gas). Add a thin wedge of
lemon and float a bit of blue Curacao over the top (Qalactin
Hypermint Extract).
   "Olive" is probably one of those flexible terms like
"jinnan-tonyx"; if you must have something, use a brandied grape
(fill a jar with fresh white grapes; cover with 6 parts (or more)
brandy to 1 part powdered sugar; seal and leave for several weeks).
I'm not sure what you'd use for xamphuor, but everything else in
this matches the recipe from the book.  We also call it a Jupiter
sunrise when served \\very// quickly; otherwise it turns a green
color hideous enough to warn incautious drinkers.

I tried this for a party last summer, it was very good.  (has this
recipe been posted this this newsgroup before?  If so, sorry for the
reposting)

Timothy D. Thomas                 SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:  [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugthomas
CSnet: ugthomas@buffalo,   ARPAnet: ugthomas%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

From: glasgow.glasgow!robertsi@caip.rutgers.edu (Iain Robertson)
Subject: PAN GALAGTIC GARGLE BLASTERS
Date: 12 Dec 85 13:19:54 GMT

Right. How to mix a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster:

        1) Take a straight, chilled half-pint glass;
        2) Add one measure of blue Curacoa;
        3) Add two measures of Vodka;
        4) Add one measure of Cointreau;
        5) Make up to a half-pint with lemonade;
        6) Add crushed ice, lemon, straws, plastic umbrellas etc;
        7) Drink   --  but very carefully.....;

  Just the thing for relaxing after a game of Krikket, or to relieve
the terrible pain in all the diodes down your left hand side.  If
anyone else has got any suggestions, improvements or other recipes,
pass 'em on !

IAIN ROBERTSON.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 16 Dec 85 1411-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #463
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 85 1411-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #463
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 463

Today's Topics:

     Books - November Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hplabs!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt)
Subject: November Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit
Date: 16 Dec 85 03:15:36 GMT

This is the list of books received in November at The Other Change
of Hobbit, in Berkeley, as posted on Scifido, a SF oriented BBS in
Oakland at (415)655-0667.

Hardcovers and Trade Paperbacks

Adams, Douglas          THE ORIGINAL HITCHHIKER RADIO SCRIPTS
                          These have the original ending, not the
                          new one for the novels.
Allen, Joseph P. with   ENTERING SPACE:  AN ASTRONAUT'S ODYSSEY
   Russell Martin         Expanded paperback of 1984 hardcover.
                          Both informative and beautiful.
Bellairs, John          THE REVENGE OF THE WIZARD'S GHOST
                          The fourth Johnny Dixon novel.  Gorey
                          dustjacket, frontispiece and map.
                        THE TREASURE OF ALPHEUS WINTERBORN
                          Reprint 1978 hardcover; this second
                          printing retains the Gorey cover.
Borges, Jorge Luis      ATLAS
   "in collaboration      Translation of 1984 Argentinian
   with Maria Kodana"     hardcover; lots of photographs.
Boynton, Sandra         CHLOE AND MAUDE
                          Three horribly cute stories for
                          children - highly recommended.
Burroughs, William S.   EXTERMINATOR!
                          Reprint 1973 hardcover; third printing.
Davies, Robertson       WHAT'S BRED IN THE BONE
                          New non-SF novel linked to THE REBEL
                          ANGELS by overlapping characters.
Garcia Marquez, Gabriel COLLECTED STORIES
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover.
Goswami, Amit and       THE COSMIC DANCERS:  EXPLORING THE SCIENCE OF
    Maggie              SCIENCE FICTION
                          Nonfiction. Reprint of 1983 hardcover.
                          Foreword by Kate Wilhelm.
Hamilton, Virgina       THE PEOPLE COULD FLY
                          American Black Folktales with jacket and
                          many gorgeous black and white
                          illustrations by Leo & Diane Dillon.
Holdstock, Robert       MYTHAGO WOOD
                          First American edition.  1985 World
                          Fantasy Award co-winner.  1984 British
                          Science Fiction Association Award-- Best
                          Novel.  ("A Hemingway plot and approach -
                          interesting but very sexist" - Tom)
Joels, Kerry Mark       THE MARS ONE CREW MANUAL
King, Stephen           SILVER BULLET
                          Reprint of CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF, adding
                          King's screenplay and 8 pages of movie
                          stills.
Kurtz, Katherine        THE KING'S JUSTICE
                          Histories of King Kelson, Vol. II.
Macaulay, David         BAAA
                          Trade paperback of last month's hardcover.
                          By the author of UNBUILDING, among others.
                          ("All we like sheep ... ").
McCaffrey, Anne         KILLASHANDRA
                          Sequel to CRYSTAL SINGER.
Menville, Douglas &     FUTURE VISIONS:  THE NEW GOLDEN AGE OF THE
    R. Reginald         SCIENCE FICTION FILM
                          Coffee table size paperback, with many
                          illustrations.
Milne, A. A.            THE POOH SONG BOOK
                          Reprint 1961 hardcover; music by
                          Fraser-Simon, decorations by (of course)
                          E. H. Shepard.
Norton, Andre &         MAGIC IN ITHKAR 2
    Robert Adams (eds.)   Second in this series of shared-world
                          anthologies.
O'Donnell, Peter        DRAGON'S CLAW
                          Reprint 1978 British hardcover.  First
                          American edition of the seventh Modesty
                          Blaise novel.  ("Superb spy thriller with
                          a totally inappropriate pornographic
                          cover" - Debbie)
Preiss, Byron (ed.)     THE PLANETS
                          Anthology of essays and original fiction
                          about each planet.  Includes a new Martian
                          Chronicle (!) plus fiction by Benford,
                          Zelazny and more.
Preuss, Paul            HUMAN ERROR
                          Intelligent computers (with "sloppy
                          disks") and intelligent, well-drawn
                          characters to match.  Recommended by
                          Debbie.
Shay, Don (ed.)         MAKING GHOSTBUSTERS
                          Packed with stills, storyboards,
                          shooting script and anecdotes.
Snyder, Zilpha Keatley  BLAIR'S NIGHTMARE
                          Reprint 1984 hardcover.
Tiptree, James Jr.      BYTE BEAUTIFUL:  8 SCIENCE FICTION STORIES
                          All but one in previous Tiptree
                          collections (new introduction by
                          Michael Bishop, however).
Vallejo, Boris          FANTASY ART TECHNIQUES
                          Lots of people like his work; maybe
                          they want to see how he does it.
Wellman, Manly Wade     THE SCHOOL OF DARKNESS
                          A new John Thunstone (not Silver John)
                          novel.
Williams, Tad           TAILCHASER'S SONG
                          A first novel.  ("WATERSHIP DOWN with
                          cats" - Dave)
Wilson, Gahan           GAHAN WILSON'S AMERICA
                          Some cartoons, some text, on the subject
                          of the U.S.A.
Winter, Douglas E.      FACES OF FEAR
                          Interviews with horror writers
                          (including King, of course).
Wolfe, Gene             FREE LIVE FREE
                          First trade edition - completely reedited
                          from the Ziesing Bros. text, partly due to
                          editorial intervention.  ("Brilliant
                          characterization and mischievous wordplay
                          make this zany, surreal novel a delight."
                          - Jan) Also recommended by Debbie.

Mass Market Paperbacks

Aldiss, Brian W.        STARSWARM
                          Reprint 1964 collection, adding one more
                          story.
Anderson, Poul          MERCENARIES OF TOMORROW
   (Creator),             Reprint anthology.
   M.H. Greenberg &
   C. G. Waugh
   (eds.)
Anderson, Poul          A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST
                          Reprint 1974 hardcover.  New cover.
Anthony, Piers          EXECUTIVE
                          Bio of a Space Tyrant Volume 4.
Asprin, Robert &        MIRROR FRIEND, MIRROR FOE
    George Takei          Reprint 1979 paperback.  Now from Ace.
Ballard, J. G.          THE BEST SHORT STORIES OF J. G. BALLARD
                          Reprint 1978 hardcover.  First mass
                          market paperback.
Baxter, Lorna           THE EGGCHILD
                          Reprint 1979 hardcover.  Illustrated
                          by Charles Vess.
Bradley, Marion Zimmer  FREE AMAZONS OF DARKOVER
    (ed.)                 Like the other two collections (THE
                          KEEPER'S PRICE and SWORD OF CHAOS),
                          this contains two stories by MZB herself.
Brown, Fredric          HOMICIDE SANITARIUM
                          Reprint 1984 specialty press hardcover;
                          previously unreprinted mystery short
                          stories from the pulps.  Recommended by
                          Debbie and Tom.
(Bulmer, Kenneth)       OMENS OF KREGEN
                          Dray Prescott:  36.  They've even
                          dropped the author's pseudonym!
Busby, F. M.            ALL THESE EARTHS
                          Reprint 1978 paperback; now from Bantam.
                          ("Great time travel paradoxes.
                          Recommended."  - Debbie)
Caidin, Martin          KILLER STATION
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover, apparently.
Chalker, Jack L.        BIRTH OF FLUX AND ANCHOR
                          Prequel to the Soul Rider trilogy
                          (although designated SOUL RIDER BOOK 4).
                          ("... it was not my intention to write
                          this book at all."  - the author's
                          Prefatory Note)
Cooper, Louise          THE INITIATE
                          Book I in the Time Master trilogy;
                          stunning Robert Gould cover.  ("A customer
                          reports this is a rewrite of LORD OF NO
                          TIME, but I can't find my copy to check.
                          Anybody know for sure?" - Tom)
Daley, Brian            JINX ON A TERRAN INHERITANCE
                          Sequel to REQUIEM FOR A RULER OF WORLDS.
Dickson, Gordon         STEEL BROTHER
                          Almost an exact duplication of
                          DICKSON! the LACon II souvenir volume
                          still available from NESFA Press.
                          (Otherwise, contains mostly unreprinted
                          stories and the now outdated "Childe
                          Cycle Status Report.")
Friedman, Michael Jan   THE SEEKERS AND THE SWORD
                          Sequel to THE HAMMER AND THE HORN.
Goldman, William        THE SILENT GONDOLIERS
                          Reprint of the 1983 hardcover by "S.
                          Morgenstern."  Related to THE PRINCESS
                          BRIDE.  Very thin, excessively expensive
                          per page.
Hawke, Simon            THE NAUTILUS SANCTION
                          Fifth (and latest) Time Wars novel.
Kilworth, Gary          SPLIT SECOND
                          First American edition; reprint of
                          1979 British hardcover.
Kurland, Michael &      THE LAST PRESIDENT
    S. W. Barton          Reprint 1980 hardcover.  Roman a clef
                          about the Nixon presidency.  ("Who'd have
                          thought we'd ever be nostalgic for
                          Watergate?  An entertaining time trip."  -
                          Debbie)
Lem, Stanislaw          THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover translation;
                          1981 Polish original.
L'Engle, Madeleine      A HOUSE LIKE A LOTUS
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover.  She continues
                          to bring her series together - in this
                          one, Polly O'Keefe meets Zachary Grey.
Longyear, Barry B. &    ENEMY MINE
    David Gerrold         Novelization of the Edward Khmara
                          screenplay based on Longyear's
                          novelette.  The film opens this month.
McEvoy, Seth            NOT QUITE HUMAN #3:  A BUG IN THE SYSTEM
McIntyre, Vonda N.      THE EXILE WAITING
                          Reprint of her 1975 first novel, very
                          slightly revised from the British (and
                          previously best) text.  Recommended by
                          Debbie, Dave and Tom.
McKinley, Robin (ed.)   IMAGINARY LANDS
                          Original anthology featuring many of the
                          best modern fantasy writers.  Superb
                          stories by Hodgell, Dickinson, McKillip,
                          Westall and more.  Highly recommended by
                          all of us.
McQuay, Mike            ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK
                          Reprint of 1981 movie novelization with
                          new non-movie related cover.
Mitchell, Elizabeth     AFTER THE FLAMES
    (ed.)                 Alien Stars Volume II.  Novelettes by
                          Silverberg, Spinrad and Kube-McDowell.
                          ("The Spinrad is hilariously funny,
                          and the other two are worth reading as
                          well." - Debbie)
Monaco, Richard         JOURNEY TO THE FLAME
Mujica Lainez, Manuel   THE WANDERING UNICORN
                          Reprint 1983 hardcover translation;
                          1965 Spanish original.
Norton, Andre           HERE ABIDE MONSTERS
                          Reprint 1973 hardcover; second paperback
                          edition.
                        OPERATION TIME SEARCH
                          Reprint 1967 hardcover; third
                          paperback edition.
Okrand, Marc            THE KLINGON DICTIONARY
                          Complete with grammar.
Palmer, David R.        THRESHOLD
                          ("A bad mix of GLORY ROAD and DEATHWORLD
                          with a steal from Doc Smith and overtones
                          of kiddie porn."  - Tom)
Pournelle, Jerry        RED DRAGON
                          Reprint 1971 non-sf thriller by
                          "Wade Curtis."  Sequel to RED HEROIN.
Resnick, Michael        EROS DESCENDING
                          Tales of the Velvet Comet #3.
Rucker, Rudy            MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME
                          Reprint of 1984 hardcover.  ("The two
                          wackiest inventors since Gallagher and
                          Joe.  Lots of fun!" - Debbie)
Salsitz, R. A. V.       WHERE DRAGONS LIE
Shea, Michael           IN YANA, THE TOUCH OF UNDYING
Shupp, Mike             WITH FATE CONSPIRE
                          Book One (of four) of The Destiny Makers.
Stasheff, Christopher   THE WARLOCK ENRAGED
                          Fifth and latest Gramarye saga; nice
                          Hickman cover.
Tepper, Sheri S.        MARIANNE, THE MAGUS AND THE MANTICORE
                          Her first contemporary fantasy.
                          Recommended by Tom, Debbie and Jan.
Vinge, Joan D.          SANTA CLAUS THE MOVIE [the book]
                          Based on screenplay by David Newman.
Wollheim, Donald A.     WOLLHEIM'S WORLD'S BEST SF SERIES 9
    (ed.)                 Formerly titled THE 1980 ANNUAL WORLD'S
                          BEST SF.

....!hplabs!faunt       faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 Dec 85 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #464
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Dec 85 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #464
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 464

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony & Effinger & Ellison & Gibson &
                  Hubbard & Mono Sex Societies &
                  Story Request Answers (4 msgs) &
                  Book Request,
          Films - Young Sherlock Holmes,
          Miscellaneous - Criticism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: utrc-2at!davidh@caip.rutgers.edu (David M Haynes)
Subject: Multi-book trilogies
Date: 12 Dec 85 13:31:20 GMT

In multi-book trilogies (ie: trilogies with more than three
books) Piers Anthony must take the prize for the Xanth trilogies (8
books).

For the record:
        A Spell for Chameleon
        The Source of Magic
        Castle Roogna
        Centaur Aisle
        Ogre, Ogre
        Night Mare
        Dragon on a Pedestal
        Crewel Lye: A Caustic Yarn

david

------------------------------

From: mcb@k.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Browne)
Subject: Re: Opinionated Male Comments (Warning!)
Date: 15 Dec 85 18:38:34 GMT

>From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
>This is no two way street that I see.  Many of these types of
>people are just as bigoted as their male counterparts.
>
>I think people were just trying to avoid a fight.  And a nasty one
>it could be too.  Cheers...

This sort of reminds me of George Alec Effinger's short story "All
of the Last Wars at Once".  It begins with a press conference at
which a white and a black announce a 30 day race war as a "Final
Solution".  After a few days, the feminists publish a manifesto and
declare war on men.  As the month goes on, more and more groups
publish leaflets and declare war: Catholics vs.  Protestants, Young
vs.  Old, Republican vs. Democrat, and left-handed vs.
right-handed.  I won't give away the ending, but I thought that it
was a good story.

This post should probably win some sort of award for "Most Unrelated
Followup".

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE
Date: 14 Dec 85 15:51:23 GMT

As a professional writer, I abhor censorship.  However, there is a
great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of
good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television.
True, Harlan was the writer in question, but producer De Guere,
actor Asner, whoever they selected as director, and the programming
mavens at CBS all would have had to live with the fact that the
terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and hispanic
children would have been put in some children's minds.  Even if the
resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the mere asking of
the question may have been inappropriate to ask in prime time.

Consider, for instance, an episode from actor/director/child star
Jackie Cooper's autobiography.  A director wanting boy-actor Jackie
to cry his heart out on camera told Cooper that his pet dog had just
been killed.  Cooper did indeed cry to the director's satisfaction.
Afterwards, the director revealed it had all been a "harmless" joke
and Jackie's dog was fine.  The question: was it (either Ellison's
raising the question of whether St. Nick likes visible minorities or
the director's suggesting the dog was dead) justifiable?  Or are
some ideas, especially those relating to and (given TZ's timeslot)
targetted at children, best left unspoken?

Ellsion has walked off virtually every long-term commitment he has
ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media project
that has ever come to fruition.  It was predictable that he would
leave TZ in a huff.  It was only a matter of time.  I, too, think he
has a wonderful way with the English language, but he is hardly
irreplacable.  C'est la vie.

RJS in Toronto
Posted c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: grady@ingres.ARPA (Steven Grady)
Subject: William Gibson novel in IAsfm
Date: 13 Dec 85 20:06:42 GMT

A quote from the current (Dec 85) issue of IAsfm:

   Our January issue will feature the start of IAsfm's first-ever
   novel serialization, and for this special occasion we have picked
   a special novel by a special new writer, Willam Gibson's
   _Count_Zero_.  Last year Gibson's remarkable first novel
   _Neuromancer_ won the Hugo, the Nebula, and the Philip K. Dick
   award, and was one of the most critically acclaimed and widely
   talked about debut novels in more than a decade.  _Count_Zero_ is
   likely to stir up even more excitement this year.  A fast-paced
   and hard-edged tale of corporate warfare and computer piracy, set
   against the decadent high-tech underworld of the future and in
   the eerie hallucinatory expanses of "cyperspace," _Count_Zero is
   sure to be one of the major novels of 1986.  Catch an early look
   at it here, beginning in January.

Sounds kind of interesting, although rather similar to
_Neuromancer_..

Steven

------------------------------

From: ut-dillo!darin@caip.rutgers.edu (Darin Adler)
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth
Date: 14 Dec 85 07:41:41 GMT

>>I found it interesting the author of "Battlefield Earth" is also
>>the renowned author,L.Ron Hubbard,the father of the Church of
>>Scientology, who in the early 1950's published the best-seller
>>"DIANETICS".  And the book's plot closely resembles the the
>>Church's "basic" beliefs, which was recently revealed in the Los
>>Angeles Times.
>
>Huh?  Did you read the book?  It is pure space opera, us against
>the aliens.  It has no message at all.  If you enjoy SF of the
>40's-50's and big books you'll enjoy Battlefield Earth.  I didn't
>get bored reading any of it (that is quite an accomplishment with a
>1000+ page book).  Of course I had to give up one of my weekends to
>it.

I have not read _Battlefield_Earth_, but if you take a look at the
Los Angeles Times article, you will find that it claims that the
basic beliefs of the Church of Scientology are exactly what one
might call "pure space opera".  (Something about an invasion of
earth or some such thing.)

Darin Adler
{gatech,harvard,ihnp4,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-dillo!darin

------------------------------

From: pyrnj!romain@caip.rutgers.edu (Romain Kang)
Subject: Re: mono sex societies
Date: 15 Dec 85 04:22:03 GMT

> A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again --
> based on a society of all males.  They were humans; their
> ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them
> without women on some previously uninhabited planet.  The
> survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used
> for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to
> themselves.  The society had become primitive, and no longer
> understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and
> utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up.  A
> pretty interesting story was placed in this society.  Does this
> sound familiar to anyone?

This sounds like an episode out of the (rightfully) forgotten
"Starlost" TV series.  (Oops, I had to remember it...)  In their
journeys through the ark, Devin, Garth, and Rachel come across a
society in one dome where there are only men, who reproduce as you
describe, only they could have constructed a XX chromosome pair if
they wanted to.  The arrival of a female (Rachel) fulfills a sort of
prophecy, which the society's dictator seizes as a way to rule
unchallenged for the remainder of his life; normally, whoever can
defeat the leader in single combat gets the job.  However, before he
can marry Rachel, Devin (whom he has sentenced to death) challenges
him.  You can guess the rest...

Romain Kang, Pyramid Technology Corporation
US Mail:        900 Route 9, Woodbridge, NJ  07095
Ma Bell:        (201) 750-2626
UUCPnet:        {allegra,cmcl2,pyramid,topaz}!pyrnj!romain

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Dec 85 16:24:49-EST
From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA
Subject: Pyramid Power

The book where Atlantis is destroyed by Pyramid Power is

        Siva!  by (I think) J & L Richmond

I found it fairly badly written, but maybe I'm prejudiced against
loose plots.  Incidentally, although the power source described in
the book may seem utterly crazy, none other than Nicola Tesla
believed in its possibility, and worked on it for several years.
[Hence the belief by the scientific/occult fringe that he was
secretly done away with by the big power utilities!]

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 0  0 00:00:00 CDT
From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
Subject: story request answers

The Gallegher stories are by Anthony Boucher and some (perhaps all,
I don't know) appear in the delightful collection
_The_Compleat_Werewolf_.
                              marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa)

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: re:    author request--gallegher stories
Date: 16 Dec 85 03:41:00 GMT

oh, sure.  Henry Kuttner.  All the stories were collected in
*The Proud Robot*.

The inventor was 'Galloway Gallegher.'  The proud robot was
like the glass cat in the Oz books: "see my pretty pink brains?
wanta see 'em work?"

I have a british paperback, containing these stories:

        The Proud Robot
        Gallegher Plus
        The World is Mine
        Ex Machina
        Time Locker

A note on the copyright page says 'originally published in
the United States under the title "Robots Have no Tails."'

------------------------------

From: mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Author Request (Gallegher stories)
Date: 15 Dec 85 20:11:45 GMT

The author of the Gallegher stories (about an inventor who is very
good when drunk) is Henry Kuttner.  A bunch of the stories were
collected in "The Proud Robot".  My copy is a British edition from
Hamlyn Paperbacks; there is an American edition called "Robots Have
No Tails" under the name Lewis Padgett.

Dragon
UUCP: ...seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-cad!mjc  or
      ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon
ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg

[Moderator's Note: Long time readers will remember that this topic
was discussed in depth last year.  I'd like to thank the following
people who submitted the same information:

Joel B Levin (levin@bbncc2.ARPA)
Richard Currier (mplvax!rec@caip.rutgers.edu)
Franklin Reynolds (ihpn4!inmet!frankr)
]

------------------------------

From: muddcs!rracine@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Racine)
Subject: Help! I need to know!!
Date: 13 Dec 85 04:06:47 GMT

This is another I need to know about book which has haunted me for a
few years now. It's an old book which was reprinted in a series of
old time classics under Lynn Carter, who wrote the introduction.
The authors last name started with an H. ( Hamiltion ??)

The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the future.  The
hero dreams his way there, I think.  All of humanity has taken
refuge in a large pyramid of light and only a few hundred remain
with fewer almost daily.  Outside of the pyramid is evil in various
incarnations.  I distinctly remember one was "HE-WHO-WATCHES-IN THE
NORTH" in the shape of a huge crouching monstrosity which never
moved, yet constantly drew closer and closer.  There are other
capitalized evils in the east, west, ect... as well as other smaller
evils which roamed freely.  Absolutely everything was dark in the
book, no sun at all, the entire atmosphere was something straight
out of Edger Allen Poe.

There is also a constant reference to a sanctuary somewhere else on
the earth.  The hero left the pyramid to search out this santuary.
He is near death, in view of the place, with pursurers right behind
him when the book ends.  Lynn Carter writes a little epilogue saying
to wait for the second book to soon be reprinted.  I have never seen
it and you can imagine why I would.

It was far and away the best sci-fi book I have ever read from the
so called golden age of sci-fi.  It was well written and way ahead
of it's time. When I think about it I am reminded of Vances future
earth stories and some of Ellison's dark work in his "Death Bird
Stories".  I wish I could remember some more details.

This is a tough one.  Does anyone out there remember it?

Ray Racine

------------------------------

From: ut-dillo!darin@caip.rutgers.edu (Darin Adler)
Subject: Re: Spielberg movies: Bah! Humbug!
Date: 14 Dec 85 07:36:48 GMT

A small (microscopic) microscopic point:

> The riddle?  "A man lives in a square hut with four windows facing
> south.  He looks outside and sees the bear.  What color is the
> bear?"  I think even an addled 9-year old would get this one at
> once, rather than struggling for days and days.

Actually the riddle was worded a bit more difficultly.  The riddle
was: "A man looks out of his hut -- out the north southern window.
He sees a bear.  What color is the bear?"  (This is just from
memory, maybe someone has the novelization?)

I was quite pleasantly suprised by _Young_Sherlock_Holmes_.
Although I must agree with many of the comments about the "Spielberg
touches", I am happy that the special effects, etc., were good
enough to attract large audiences to this film.  Otherwise I would
have certainly been deprived of one of the few *good* portrayals of
Sherlock Holmes on screen.  The young version presented in this film
is a refreshing change from Basil Rathbone in the black and white
Holmes films (which I am not particularly fond of).  For a kiddie,
special-effect, movie, there was remarkable care in presenting
characters as Doyle described them.

(Well, I also liked the "glass man". :-)

Darin Adler
{gatech,harvard,ihnp4,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-dillo!darin

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Query about reviews/criticism
Date: 13 Dec 85 03:12:44 GMT

Having a joint B.A. degree in Fine Arts and English, I fear I've
spent a great deal of time reviewing creations -- and reviewers.
Reviewing is an art, it really is, and few people do it well.  But
the major gist is: Most reviewers see what they expect to see.  And
then they go on, in great detail, often, to prove to others that
what they saw was actually in the work.  I wonder if Shakespeare
really intended such a fascinating mosaic of meaning scholars have
attributed him with.  I would think such works would be entirely too
self-conscious to read.  (Note T.S.Elliot's *The Wasteland* -- which
I actually think is a practical joke on reviewers/critics.)

I recall a quote from somewhere: "Those that can't create, review."
Or something along those lines.  I believe the statement is a bit
too general and too harsh (though sometimes applicable).  But there
is a real risk in reviewing to slip away from the work into a
private world of (often) propaganda.  The review, in effect,
becomes, as is said in music, a fantasy on a theme.

Every reviewer should remember, no matter how hard he/she tries to
be objective, that he/she is stating an opinion.  His/Her opinion.
Rather than saying, this book is trash (even if it is), say, 'It is
my opinion that this book is trash, and here is why...'.  After all,
one man's dross is another's treasure.

Case in point -- Zelazany's *Lord of Light*.  It makes the all time
top ten of a good friend's reading list, but my husband (the one who
reads during t.v. commercials)(and usally through the programs, too)
has never been able to finish it.  Does this make a qualitative
judgement against *Lord of Light*?  No, for both responses are a
matter of personal taste.

You may enjoy High Opera.  I can't manage much heavier than Gilbert
and Sullivan.  But I don't discount Wagner as junk.

Well, I have gone on too long.  (I know, never apologize -- I'm
sorry.)  [:-)] But remember, ye reviewers with criticism on your
keyboards, your opinion, though valid, is by no means universal.
And, like everything I've here writ -- may be totally wrong.

Adieu -- and Happy Holidays!

Barb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 Dec 85 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #465
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Dec 85 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #465
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 465

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anthony & Dick & Ellison & Enemy Mine &
                  Story Request Answered & A Book Request,
          Films - Warriors of the Wind,
          Miscellaneous - Feminism & World Design & A Christmas Poem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Obscure books (Chthon)
Date: 7 Dec 85 21:53:00 GMT

     You are indeed describing "Prosthro Plus" by Piers Anthony.  If
you can find a copy of the book (maybe in used book stores), by all
means buy it.  It is quite funny.  Along with that, it shows how a
rather naive and unsophisticated inhabitant of a backwater planet
like Terra can rise above his "betters".

     All this occurred before Anthony began his more recent humor
style.  (E.g. A Spell for Chameleon, etc.)  Another, similarly
humorous book is "Triple Detente" published by DAW.

Mike McCarthy
(ihnp4|hplabs)!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

From: tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: PKD discussions...
Date: 12 Dec 85 21:39:29 GMT

There is an excellent write-up of Phillip K. Dick's "odd religious
notions" in the first issue of Gnosis, a new magazine on Western
spirituality.  It's a full-color, slick-paper quarterly, very nicely
done, but rather under-distributed now.  I picked up my copy in a
San Francisco occult bookstore; if there is interest, I'll send the
address of the magazine.  (I'm at work now, so I don't have it
handy.)

Tim Maroney
CMU Center for Art and Technology
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu
uucp: {seismo,decwrl,ucbvax,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim
CompuServe: 74176,1360

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_aset@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Trowbridge)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE
Date: 16 Dec 85 23:47:06 GMT

> Ellsion has walked off virtually every long-term commitment he has
> ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media
> project that has ever come to fruition.  It was predictable that
> he would leave TZ in a huff.  It was only a matter of time.  I,
> too, think he has a wonderful way with the English language, but
> he is hardly irreplacable.  C'est la vie.
>
> RJS in Toronto

I have been an Ellison fan for quite some time now and have read
nearly every book he's published (short stories, essays, etc.) -- no
mean feat.  However, I have been disappointed by the new TZ series.

(WARNING -- spoilers ahead)

For one thing, it's not really true to the spirit of the old show.
In Serling's zone, the good were always rewarded and the bad were
always punished.  This has hardly been the case on the new TZ --
i.e., the boy who was killed for being too intelligent, the harried
housewife who stopped time with a nuclear bomb in the air, trapped
forever or doomed.  Granted, not every old TZ was a morality play --
perhaps the most famous episode of all, "Time Enough at Last," was a
sad story where a kind old man's "best-laid plans" were ruined.  But
so many TZs featured baddies getting poetic justice.  The new TZ
seems to have forgotten this.

Some of the new TZs have been so stupid and sentimental that it's a
wonder that crusty old Harlan was involved, such as last Friday's
about a woman brought back from the past to save a scientist's
marriage.  I really did expect more from Ellison.  But the
"Shatterday" episode proved that his works function much better as
stories than as visuals.  I think print is the best medium for him;
besides, it's a solitary art rather than a collaborative one, and
Ellison doesn't seem to be Mr. Congeniality.

Hard to believe the man who wrote two books entitled
_The_Glass_Teat_ could get a job in tv in the first place.
Ellisonmaniacs, and anyone interested in a good argument, should
check out his latest volume of essays, _An_ Edge_In_My_Voice_.
Reading it was lots more fun than watching any episode of the TZ.

Sue Trowbridge
allegra!umcp-cs!aplvax.....
decvax!decuac!aplvax.....

------------------------------

Subject: Emeny Mine
Date: 16 Dec 85 15:41:44 PST (Mon)
From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

   Well, now that I've heard the plot to the novel, which presumably
is the plot to the movie, I can pretty much decide, sight unseen, to
avoid this movie.  The original story was a novella in IASFM, and is
just about the best think Barry Longyear ever wrote.  It looks as if
he had to bash and wreck that piece of work to get it on the screen.
   ( flame on ! )
   In my humble opinion, never in sf has there been a case of good
book being made into good movie, just good book into celluloid
drivel.  This will almost certainly be another case.  ( No, I don't
mean 2001; it came sort of with the movie, not before. ) I am
getting very tired of watching good work trashed for the screen.
   ( flame off )
   If you folks wanna rant-and-rave at me, do it to sf-lovers, not
to me.  We can all scream about it there.

Dave Godwin
University of California, Irving

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 85 13:20:26 CST (Tuesday)
From: FINCH.dlos@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: STORY SEARCH
Cc: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA

>My fiancee is trying to find out the title and author of a book she
>read about 10 years ago.  She remembers that it was like an ACE
>Double, novella in length and flip the book over.

The book you are talking about is indeed an ace double and it
happens to be one of my favorite stories. The title is "The Lost
Millenium", by Walt and Leigh Richmond.

They called the pyramid power a Solar Tap. These Solar Taps were
perfectly safe unless they were at one of the poles where an
"avalanche effect" could start. That's what happened to the old
civilization. The "avalanche effect" caused the earth to speed up
it's rotation.

I don't remember it all. I guess I'll have to go back and read it
again.

Jim Finch

------------------------------

From: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Request for Book Info
Date: 14 Dec 85 01:26:00 GMT

     I, too, would like to tap into the wisdom of the net and
determine the title of a book I read long ago.  Thanks in advance
for any pointers.

     The book in question is a collection of three novellas (or
extended short stories).  The unifying theme for the collection is
of societies with alternate economic systems (that is, alternate to
what we are used to).

     In one story, all payments are in terms of "obs" (short for
"obligations").  Whenever somebody does something for you, you incur
an "ob" to them.  You can repay them by providing a service of their
request.  What with the "transitive" passing on of "obs" things can
get very complicated.  (I don't remember the plot.)

     In another story, payment is always based on gambling.  If you
eat in a restaurant, you might end up paying double or nothing for
the meal based on a coin toss.  Thanks to the laws of probability,
everything is supposed to work out fairly over time.  The people in
this society develop a great deal of expertise in statistics and
probability theory.  This comes in handy when some nasty aliens
invade their system.  (The natives use their expertise to set up
one-man raids via teleporting scout ships that allow them to
UNPREDICTABLY pop up and attack the alien's ships.)

     I don't remember anything about the third story.  (I'm sure
there were three though.)  I read this some time during the mid to
late 1960's when I was reading hundreds of books a year.  (The local
library couldn't borrow science-fiction fast enough for me!)

Mike McCarthy
(ihnp4|hplabs)!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 85 09:59:14 est
From: Joe Turner <cutter%umass-boston.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA>
Subject: Home Video Review

                        WARRIORS OF THE WIND
                        Running time:  95min
                        Rated:            PG
                           New World Video

The darling of 1984, NAUSICAA - IN THE VALLEY OF THE WIND, is now
out on home video in the U.S. This film was a smash in Japan,
sweeping up every award it could, and doing the same in Europe. It
won the award for Best Animated Feature Over 1/2-Hour at the
Internation Animation Festival in Los Angeles. It was rumoured that
a small sleazoid company was dubbing it, and making it up as they go
along. Untrue, at the least!

The film deals with an interesting premise: WW3 was here and gone,
and it took most of civilisation with it. There is a high tech
level, but only large powers have it. Two nasty groups who have WW2
military strength have been fighting, and the inhabitants of the
Valley of the Wind have been caught strategically in between them.
Now one of the powers is rumoured to possess one of the "fire
demons" that started the war. The princess of the Valley, Xandra,
takes it upon herself to try and stop the fighting. The ending is
strange... very strange.

There are decent characterisations (although Xandra has been accused
of being too perfect), the voices are fine, and the editing has been
minimal (all the original violence was left in), from 110 minutes to
95 minutes. No storyline was lost in the translation. They also kept
the original music. It is for sale or rent in most video stores.

Rating (-5 to 5+): 4+

joe turner
(cutter@umb.csnet)

------------------------------

Date: Mon 16 Dec 85 14:25:30-CST
From: Anthony Aristar <AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA>
Subject: Feminism & SF: Comments from Brett Slocum

>I think that anti-feminist feelings are not often expressed because
>many SF & fantasy readers are among the enlightened on this topic.

Alas, Brett, I don't believe this.  I've met too many sf-lovers who
were "chauvinists," as they are so charmingly called, and
"chauvinistic" SF is so popular that it must be doing something for
someone.  Larry Niven's writing is a good example here: strong
female characters occur, but they're strong in ways which don't
contradict traditional concepts of maleness and femaleness.  Teela
of the Ringworld Series is *lucky*, not good at swinging a
battle-ax.  Only when she metamorphosizes into a protector, with a
dramatically enhanced body and altered psychology, does physical
violence become her forte.  So therefore, my earlier question
remains unanswered: what exactly was it that stopped this darker
side of fandom from showing its hairy, macho face?

>In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what
>a 5' 6" martial artist can do against a group of the most awesome
>brawlers with weapons? I have, and I treat them with respect (male
>or female).

The Martial arts I know something about: I was involved with them
for about ten years at an earlier stage of my life.  I have only
these comments.  A Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or
gymnastics than a real fight.  For obvious reasons (e.g. you'd
decimate the MA community) you aren't allowed to land real blows.
You're judged on things like speed, technique, etc, and since women
tend to be quicker and more supple than men, they do pretty well.
But the best kept secret in the field is this: none of this matters
in real violence unless you have the reach to get past your
opponent's defence, and even very scientifically placed blows need
to contain a considerable degree of force to be effective against a
powerful, aggressive opponent.  The only real fight I've ever seen
between a martial-arts trained woman and an untrained but aggressive
man was resolved in a brutish but effective manner -- he used his
hands to keep her away, (she hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in
the meantime), then he grappled her, and fell on her.  The only
woman I can conceive of winning such a fight would be some kind of
androgyne.  So my earlier comment stands: SF with women eminently
successful at violence is (do I dare use this word here?) fantasy.

------------------------------

To: king%kestrel@lbl-rtsg.arpa
Subject: Re: sunset, ... sunrise [world design service] issue 452
Date: 16 Dec 85 12:34:29 PST (Mon)
From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa

>From: king@kestrel (Dick King)
>As I understand it, a rapidly rotating nonsolid object forms a
>DISC, not a FOOTBALL.

A perfect fluid, rotating without any external perturbations, would
indeed form a disk-shaped object if it rotated fast enough.  If you
added even more energy, it would even form a TORUS, which is a very
interesting object that I have studied for a few years.
Unfortunately, neither the disk nor the torus is stable - the disk
goes asymetrical and elongates into a football, while the torus
breaks up into droplets which eventually coalesce into a double
star.

The best reference for this subject is "Hydrodynamics", by Sir
Horace Lamb, first published in 1881 and still in print!

>Why not a double star in close, fast orbit?  The world rotates
>quite slowly, and one star sets due to its own motion as the other
>rises.

That would work just as well as the football.  The problem with both
solutions is getting the star (or stars) to rotate (or orbit) fast
enough.  We're talking about a quarter rotation in ~ten minutes,
while our own sun takes seven hours to go through that same 90
degrees.  I'm sure it can be worked out, but you won't get a
"normal" star system.  Maybe a pair of white dwarfs would work, with
the planet only a million km away.

Jef

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 85 09:40 pst
From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Reprinted w/o permission from a several year old Omni

                  The Night Before Christmas, 2001
                          by David A. Tarr

Twas the night before Christmas, and all through my home
Not a creature was stirring, not even my clone.

The test tubes were hung by the burner with care,
In hopes that Saint Nicholas soon would be there.

The androids were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of mc**2 danced in their heads.

My wife in her jumpsuit, and I in my vest,
Had just settled down to some drug-induced rest.

When, out by the labs, there arose such a clatter,
My bed woke me up to see what was the matter.

Away to the window I hastened my mass,
Tore open the blast shields, and threw up the glass.

The refraction of moonlight through smog-ridden air
Gave a luster of midday to everything there.

When what to my bionic eyes should appear
But a mass-driven sleigh with some strange landing gear,

With a quick little pilot, a company man,
Who did what was asked and followed the plan.

More rapid than phantoms his coursers they came.
He impulsed his crew, then called them by name.

"Now, Redox!  Now, Hewlett!  Now, Quasar and Photon!
"On, Laser!  On, Xerox!  On, Pulsar and Proton!

"To the top of the dome, by the air-intake vent.
"Now dash away quickly before our fuel's spent."

So, up to the air vent his coursers they flew,
With a craft full of toys and Saint Nicholas, too.

And then, in a flash, on the dome I did hear
The scratching and scraping of stout landing gear.

I steadied my blaster, my chest to the ground,
And then, through the air vent, he came with a bound.

He was dressed in a three-piece he'd rented near here.
(Why purchase an outfit you wear once a year?)

A life-support system he wore on his back,
While the toys for the 'droids he took out of his pack.

A bottle of synthroid he held in his hand
(He was quite overweight from a poor thyroid gland).

He brought out the toys that department stores sell;
The elves at the Pole could not make them as well.

He checked with the base ship, while doing his work,
And filled all the test tubes, then turned with a jerk.

His anti-grav belt was secure, I suppose,
And, pressing the keys, up the air vent he rose.

He sprang to his craft, to the crew gave a shout;
The ship heaved a shudder, then blasted them out.

But I heard him exclaim, as he flew out of sight,
"Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good flight."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 19 Dec 85 0939-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #466
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Dec 85 0939-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #466
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 466

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony & Brust (2 msgs) & Byers &
                     Dean & Feist & Gibson & Longyear &
                     Malamud & Manguel & Morris & Simak &
                     Book Request & SF Bestsellers,
             Films - Books into Films,
             Television - Star Trek (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe
Date: 15 Dec 85 01:55:00 GMT

     I think that Piers Anthony wins hands-down in this particular
chutzpah contest.  At last count, he had written SEVEN books in the
Xanth trilogy.  (So far his "Bio of a Space Tyrant" is a trilogy,
but will it stay that way?  Also, I think there are five books in
the series that contains "Thousandstar" and "Viscous Circle".  Did
he ever call that one a trilogy?)

Mike McCarthy
...(ihnp4|hplabs)!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

From: watdcsu!mnelling@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Ellingham [C and O])
Subject: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 16 Dec 85 21:30:14 GMT

   I just picked up a copy of Steven Brust's latest novel,
"Brokedown Palace."  It's published by Ace. The printing date inside
says January 1986.  I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but
here's what the blurb on the back says:

   "Once upon a time there were four brothers who ruled the
land of Fenario:
   King Laszlo, a good man - though perhaps a little mad;
   Prince Andre, a clever man - though perhaps a little shallow;
   Prince Vilmos, a strong man - though perhaps a little stupid;
   Prince Miklos, the youngest brother, perhaps a little - no, a
lot - stubborn.

   "Once upon a time there were four brothers - and a goddess, a
wizard, an enigmatic talking stallion, a very hungry dragon - and a
crumbling Brokedown Palace on the banks of the River of Faerie ..."

   Just thought I'd let all the SKZB fans out there know.  This
sounds like it might be a lot of fun to read.

Mark Ellingham (...{ihnp4|decvax|utzoo}!watmath!watdcsu!mnelling)

------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 18 Dec 85 22:32:26 GMT

mnelling@watdcsu.UUCP (Mark Ellingham[C and O]) writes:

> [...] here's what the blurb on the back says: [...]
>   Prince Andre, a clever man - though perhaps a little shallow;

That is indeed what the cover says; but it should say Andor, not
Andre.  Alas, proofreading!

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE LONG FORGETTING by Edward Byers
Date: 16 Dec 85 23:04:51 GMT

               THE LONG FORGETTING by Edward A. Byers
                             Baen, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Once more, Baen Books takes an interesting premise (a "fugue"
in space that causes the loss of all memory and higher brain
functions) and throws it away.  Instead of spending time showing how
mankind regained his former glory, surely the most interesting
story, Byers tells us of the discovery of some religious documents
that, if revealed, will completely change the way people look at
their beliefs.  Irving Wallace did the same thing with THE WORD and
he didn't need science fiction to do it.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 85 21:07 CST
From: "David S. Cargo" <Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Second Dean book

The second part of Pamela Dean's story of the Secret Country is due
for release in July of '86 (which may really mean June).  She is now
also under contract for the third and concluding volume (no
publication date set yet).

David S.  Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics)

------------------------------

From: ptsfb!djl@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Magician: Apprentice
Date: 18 Dec 85 03:02:47 GMT

                        Magician: Apprentice
                                 by
                          Raymond E. Feist

If you liked Tolkien you will like this series. If you like stories
of ordinary people forced to fight against great evil, you will like
this series.

This book is apparently the first of a tetralogy set in a feudal
world where magic works. The hero, Pug, is an orphan being raised in
the castler of the local lord. As the book opens the time is
approaching when Pug, and other boys his age, must be apprenticed to
a craftsmaster for training in the occupation chosen for them. As is
obvious from the title, Pug is chosen by the lord's magician.  As in
any Tolkienesque (is that a word ?) fantasy, there are dwarves,
elves and dragons. But this is a book that stands on its own. I did
not get the same feeling of a direct ripoff of Tolkien that I got
from the Shannara trilogy. As in "The Lord of the Rings" the story
does get confusing at times with several different substories
occurring at once. There is one major difference between this book
and TLoR, the enemy here is not painted in an unrelieved black as
Sauron is. I hope that the society of invaders, who bear a strong
resemblance to Samurai, is explored further in the following books.

In case it wasn't obvious from the first paragraph, I strongly
recommend this book for anyone who likes heroic fantasy.

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{ucbvax,and,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl
(415) 823-2404

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: William Gibson novel in IAsfm
Date: 16 Dec 85 20:15:24 GMT

> A quote from the current (Dec 85) issue of IAsfm:
>    Our January issue will feature the start of IAsfm's first-ever
>    novel serialization, and for this special occasion we have
>    picked a special novel by a special new writer, Willam Gibson's
>    _Count_Zero_.
> Sounds kind of interesting, although rather similar to
> _Neuromancer_..

It is similar to Neuromancer, because it is placed in the same
universe. I've read the first segment, and I'm quite impressed. As a
sendoff to Gardner as new editor, I can only hope that this is the
kind of stuff he'll publish in the future (as opposed to the cute
and cuddly stuff IA tends to publish). I'll bet that Shawna bought
it before she left. I'm not normally a fan of serials, but if this
is their way of telling us the kind of stuff they want to publish in
the future, I'm all for it...

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Enemy Mine
Date: 16 Dec 85 03:02:00 GMT

re:     enemy mine
        (A "movie" based on an original story by Barry Longyear;
        maybe you knew that already, but you didn't mention it, so I
        thought I would)

I was afraid they would do that.  I guess it's inevitable, though,
considering.  Longyear should never have sold Hollywood the rights
to the story, for which he won a Hugo (and possibly Nebula?  I can't
remember).  One of the things I liked best about the story was the
lack of melodrama and coincidence.  Looks like that's all that
Hollywood left in ...

Ivan Van Laningham

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: GOD'S GRACE by Bernard Malamud
Date: 16 Dec 85 23:05:50 GMT

                   GOD'S GRACE by Bernard Malamud
                             Avon, 1982
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This novel provides an interesting counter-point to David
Brin's "uplift" stories.  Described as "the only survivors of the
nuclear holocaust are a Jew and his chimp," this novel examines
Sam's attempts to "raise" the chimpanzee (and others who appear) to
the level of human beings.  The results are, shall we say, less
encouraging than Brin would want us to believe.  Scientific accuracy
isn't Malamud's strong point, but this is religious fantasy, not
science fiction.  Most people would find this too depressing, but
post-holocaust completists may want to read it anyway.

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: BLACK WATER editted by Alberto Manguel
Date: 16 Dec 85 23:03:29 GMT

               BLACK WATER edited by Alberto Manguel
                           Picador, 1983
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is an excellent anthology of "fantastic" stories from all
over the world.  Unlike most anthologies published in this country,
it is not slanted toward American or British authors, but has a wide
assortment of Latin American, European, and Asian authors.  These
aren't science fiction stories.  Most aren't horror stories in the
usually accepted sense, though some are horrific in nature.  The
closest common appellation would be fantasy, though if you're
expecting unicorns and elves, look elsewhere.  Run, do not walk, to
your nearest bookstore to get this one!

                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper)
Subject: THE FORTY-MINUTE WAR by J. & C. Morris
Date: 16 Dec 85 23:02:09 GMT

           THE FORTY-MINUTE WAR by Janet and Chris Morris
                             Baen, 1985
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Like so many Baen Books these days, this is basically not a
science- fiction story.  The "40-Minute War" of the title provides
the rationale for some very straightforward CIA/spy-type stuff, and
the ending indicates that the authors didn't really have an ending.
Talk about deus ex machina!
                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl

------------------------------

From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Swan)
Subject: Re: Way Station....
Date: 16 Dec 85 20:32:42 GMT

postmaster@CSNET-SH.ARPA writes:
>[...]an unusual situation regarding the book "Way Station" by
>Clifford Simak in the book club edition.  Specifically, this
>person's spouse who normally had non-SF tastes in their reading
>picked up this book and could not put it down until they had
>finished.  [...]  Now I recall this book.  I thought it wasn't bad,
>but it also wasn't spectacular.  [...]  Does anyone have any
>explanation for this?

It depends heavily on your tastes (plural intentional) in
literature. While Simak's older books, like _Way Station_ treat
certain topics (such as alien beings) in ways that look clumsy to
readers of the current styles of science fiction, there is an
element to his writing in those books that I really enjoy.

Sad to say, I have not found quite the same "charm" in his later
writings, but the earlier books hold a special place in my permanent
collection (if quantity counts, my bookshelves and floors support
only some 500 books, but I have given away well over a thousand in
the past two decades).

I see nothing contradictory in seeing a person who has been
stereotyped as to their choice of reading finding enjoyment in a
different writing. My wife, who has a Master's in French Literature
is currently enjoying Le Guin's _Left Hand of Darkness_.

William Swan
{ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill

------------------------------

From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Title Wanted - Kids' Book
Date: 17 Dec 85 00:54:01 GMT

I'm looking for the title of a book I read years ago back in the
Pasadena public library (ah, the good ol'days); was about a group of
kids living in a computer-run community underground and their
discovery of people living on the surface.  All the underground
people were bald (I think the surface dwellers still had head hair),
transportation was similar to slidewalks.  I particularly recall the
protagonist of the story dialing up a drink at supper by requesting
"Hot, sweet, and red."

Send mail please.
Thanks, Ellen
tektronix!reed!ellen

------------------------------

Date: Wed 18 Dec 85 16:37:16-PST
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: SF Bestsellers

Something I've often wondered about, but never found the facts on
on, is the question "What science fiction books have really been the
long term favorites, as measured by actual sales rather than
awards?"

Locus publishes montly bestseller lists, but these don't contain
actual numbers, so there's no way to total them up for a given time
period.  So, I'm wondering if anyone out there could point me toward
a source for a listing of the best-selling science fiction books of
the last ten or twenty years with actual (or estimated) totals for
copies sold (not $ amounts), or any information along those lines.

Thanks for the help!

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 17 Dec 85 06:12:10 GMT

> From: Dave Godwin <godwin@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>    In my humble opinion, never in sf has there been a case of good
> book being made into good movie, just good book into celluloid
> drivel.  This will almost certainly be another case.  ( No, I
> don't mean 2001; it came sort of with the movie, not before. ) I
> am getting very tired of watching good work trashed for the
> screen.

Well, this seems like a good time to flame back. How about "A Boy
and His Dog" (hugo, 1976) or "Dr. Strangelove" (hugo, 1965) or
"Secret of NIMH" (1983?). You should NEVER use the word never, since
it just prompts people to find exceptions... (Hmm, I smell a
straight line in there somewhere...). If I thought about it, I could
probably come up with a few more, but three is enough to throw out a
'never' argument...

Now, IN GENERAL I agree with you -- a movie made of a 'name' book
tends towards mediocrity. This isn't an indictment of SF movies,
though. Look at movies in general, and they do the same to ANY book
-- the bigger then name on the title page, the less thought goes
into making the film because they have a guaranteed draw. Just look
at ANY Stephen King film. If you can.

If, on the other hand, you take an original theme or an original
derivation of a famous theme you have to work at the story to make
it go. This is why films like "Sleeper", "Young Frankenstein", "Time
After Time", "The Last Starfigher" and "Star Wars" worked. They
needed a good story and a good movie to succeed, since they couldn't
get people to come see it any other way...

2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film
done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the
only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want to
add new nominations?

(never and always are always dangerous words -- never use them!)

Chuq Von Rospach
sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM
{hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 85 15:26 PST
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA
Subject: ST videocassettes
Cc: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU

Frank Hollander's information about the ST videocassettes was not
correct: they are not being released in original aired order, but in
production order with gliches.  Not all first season episodes have
been released yet, however two second season ones (the first two in
production order) are out.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Wed 18 Dec 85 11:50:53-PST
From: Lynn Gold <Lynn%PANDA@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Star Trek Blooper Reel

Video Yesteryear sells it, along with the Laugh-In blooper reel.  I
forget the price, but you could send for their catalog.

Lynn

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Dec 85 1105-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #467
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Dec 85 1105-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #467
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 467

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Asimov & Brust & Simak &
                          Slonczewski & Stasheff,
                  Films - Young Sherlock Holmes,
                  Miscellaneous - World Design & Feminism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: ROBOTS AND EMPIRE by Isaac Asimov (slight spoiler)
Date: 17 Dec 85 21:58:53 GMT

The inside jacket reads:

  [First paragraph skipped -- mainly hype]

  "Two hundred years have passed since THE ROBOTS OF DAWN and Elijah
  Baley, the beloved hero of the Earthpeople, is dead. The future of
  the Universe is at a crossroads. Though the forces of the sinister
  Spacers are weakened, Dr. Kelden Amadiro has never forgotten -- or
  forgiven -- his humiliating defeat at the hands of Elijah. Now,
  with vengeance burning in his heart, he is more determined than
  ever to bring about the total annihilation of the planet Earth.

  But Amadiro has not counted on the equally determined Lady Gladia.
  Devoted to Elijah Baley, the Auroran beauty has taken up the
  legacy of her fallen lover, vowing to stop the Spacers at any
  cost. With her two robot companions, Daneel and Giskard, she
  prepares to set into motion a daring and dangerous plan...a plan
  whose success -- or failure -- will forever seal the fate of Earth
  and all who live there."

  [Last paragraph skipped -- also hype]

I'm not sure that the person who wrote the above summary really read
the book. First, Gladia is a Solarian, not an Auroran. Second, the
people of Earth don't hold Baley in particular reverence: the
Settlers do. And Gladia doesn't...well, this is only supposed to be
a mild spoiler, so I won't say more.

I may be in a minority, but I didn't care for THE ROBOTS OF DAWN. I
found it to be very boring. It's the first SF book by Asimov that I
didn't like. From reading the above description, I had trepidations
about starting ROBOTS AND EMPIRE. I'm happy to report that my fears
were unfounded.

The action takes place in the pre-Foundation era. Baley's hope that
some people from Earth would settle new worlds has been achieved.
The main characters are Gladia, Daneel, Giskard, Amadiro, and two
newcomers, one a coworker with Amadiro, the other a Settler and
descendant of Elijah Baley.  Daneel and Giskard really have the
center stage, though.

I found the book to have two very interesting ideas about the Laws
of Robotics, but I won't give away what they are.  In general,
things moved quickly; in fact, there were a few places in which I
couldn't force myself to put the book down until I found out what
happened next.

I give this book 3.5 stars (very, very good).

Duane Morse
..!noao!terak|anasazi!duane  or  ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero)
Subject: _Brokedown Palace_ by Steven Brust
Date: 17 Dec 85 00:25:27 GMT

Brust's latest book is now out. Put out by.....the same people that
put out the rest of his books. About the same size as his previous
books.

Opinion: If you liked his previous books, you will like this one.
         This comment is based on the fact that I liked both his
         previous ones and this one.

Rating: I don't believe in ratings but for those that do I guess I
         would give it 4 on a scale -4 to 4. This means I enjoyed it
         and will definitely read it a number of times ( as opposed
         to I enjoyed it and probably won't read it again except
         when I'm bored, or, I didn't enjoy it that much but will
         probably read it again 'cos it helps to pass the time.... )

Recommendation: READ IT! One thing that is obvious is a lot of time
         and thought went in to this and makes the book very
         enjoyable.

A comment on the cover ( or maybe the first inside page ) goes
something like "I didn't know where he was taking me but I enjoyed
going". This sums up the way I felt. Most of the questions you would
like answered are answered by the end of the book although there are
certainly some that are *not* answered. The impression I got was
that this is a slice out of the history and everything you need to
know is given but not much more. Maybe this is just me, I'll have to
read it again. However this impression is not displeasing.  "I don't
understand" "Never mind" :-)

Plot Summary ( Potential slight spoiler but how can you give a plot
summary without a spoiler? Most of this can be got from the cover )

Tells the story of a palace that's fallen down literally around the
ears of the inhabitants ( no surprizes here :-) In particular, it
focuses on the youngest of 4 sons. His eldest brother,who is now
King ( due to the Palace ), is a ....little unhappy with the state
of the Palace and when the youngest ( I've forgotten his name and
don't have the book ) comments on said state, he is beaten and
forced to flee. This action will eventually lead to the youngest
son destroying the old Palace to make way for the new. In fact, it
seems that the youngest son never really has any free will in doing
this, even though he makes the decision to do so...

More Serious Spoilers about the Universe in which this Story is
based.

It seems to be the same as in Jhereg and Yendi as jheregs are
mentioned numerous times but only as predators circling in the
distance.

Devera makes a couple of minor appearances *in person*. This
suggests that maybe it's after the time of Jhereg and Yendi
except....well read the book. We are given no more clues as to what
she's about. Nor does her appearance seem that important to the
story. I guess Steve will tell us in good time.

Ewan Tempero
UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan    ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA

------------------------------

From: copper!tomp@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Pereira)
Subject: Re: Way Station....
Date: 16 Dec 85 21:15:11 GMT

>From: Nick Simicich <NJS.YKTVMX%ibm-sj.csnet@CSNET-SH.ARPA>
>...regarding the book "Way Station" by Clifford Simak
>...Specifically, this person's spouse who normally had non-SF
>tastes in their reading picked up this book and could not put it
>down until they had finished.

This is a favorite of mine, one that I've had for many years and
although I have frequently recommended it to *my* spouse she has
never even picked it up!  I doubt very much that it has been
impregnated with any substances "Way Station" (in my opinion) *is* a
good story in its own right!

Tom Pereira
Tektronix Inc.
P.O. Box 4600, Mail Station 92-635
Beaverton, Oregon 97075-4600
Phone: 503-629-1232
...!decvax!tektronix!copper!tomp

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: mono sex society/feminism/jacket blu
Date: 17 Dec 85 16:42:00 GMT

For those interested in mono sex societies, feminism, or bad jacket
blurbs, the following is excerpted from the SF Book Club's 2/86 (!)
Bulletin announcing selections.  The book in question is Joan
Slonczewski's A DOOR INTO OCEAN, the main selection for the month.

"Bernice is caught between two worlds.

 Born into one of the leading aristocratic trading families of
 Valedon, she'd grown up on its ocean-covered sister world and moon,
 Shora.  There, the pacifist all-female society of the Sharers
 flourishes on living rafts shaped by the same deft bio-engineering
 that permits reproduction.  And there, amid Shora's communality and
 gentle anarchy, its honesty and ecological sensitivity, Benice has
 found all the things she missed in the profit and power-centered
 hierarchy of Valedon.

 ....

 The invasion comes...but on a world where the very concept of war
 is completely non-existent, among a people with no acknowledged
 leader, whom can an army fight and conqueor?  With whom can a
 general treat for peace?"


Gee, next we'll have The Care Bears Go Galactic.  Seriously, though,
if the book lives up (?) to its description, it's the kind of thing
that can give feminism a bad name.

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
or   jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa
                 ^
                 this asterisk is necessary!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 85 08:34:33 PST (Thursday)
Subject: The Warlock Enraged
From: Dewing.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA

            THE WARLOCK ENRAGED by Christopher Stasheff

  This is a book for those who have read all the others, maybe. The
reason to read this one is because you read the others. Why?
  Amusing aspects found in earlier novels almost non existent.
  Slow.
  To use his powers Rod has to become enraged. A portion of the book
is about how he tries to control it.
  Dull, was expecting better after having read previous novels.

  Overall ratings on series 0-10:
    The Warlock Inspite of Himself    10
    King Kobold                       4
    King Kobold Revised               6
    The Warlock Unlocked              8
    Escape Velocity (prequel)         7
    The Warlock Enraged               4

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Spielberg movies: Bah! Humbug!
Date: 17 Dec 85 16:27:00 GMT

>Actually the riddle was worded a bit more difficultly.  The riddle
>was: "A man looks out of his hut -- out the north southern window.
>He sees a bear.  What color is the bear?"  (This is just from
>memory, maybe someone has the novelization?)

My apologies; I believe you're correct.

>... I am happy that the special effects, etc., were good enough to
>attract large audiences to this film.  Otherwise I would have
>certainly been deprived of one of the few *good* portrayals of
>Sherlock Holmes on screen.

Must everything be sugar-coated with special effects to draw an
audience?  Can't a provocative idea (in this case, SH as a young
man) be combined with tight writing, good acting, and imaginative
directing to draw an audience that raves about the movie?  Or have
both the audiences and the movie makers simply become too damned
lazy?  These are, I realize, rhetorical questions.  Any rhetorical
answers?

>The young version presented in this film is a refreshing change
>from Basil Rathbone in the black and white Holmes films (which I am
>not particularly fond of).  For a kiddie, special-effect, movie,
>there was remarkable care in presenting characters as Doyle
>described them.

I agree that a change from Rathbone is interesting.  The "Mystery"
series on PBS ran six episodes of SH mysteries using a different,
interesting (and acerbic) Holmes and a stunning Watson -- no buffoon
-- but entirely believable.  I guess the crux of the matter is
indicated in your phrase "For a kiddie, special-effect movie...."
Damn it, I wish, oh, I wish for movies to be written up to the
adults for kids to see, not down to the kids for adults to see.  The
problem is not limited to Spielberg or SF, but the striking
difference between potential and achievement makes it all the more
bitter.

>(Well, I also liked the "glass man". :-)

**** minor plot spoiler follows, then end of message. ****

If you mean the glass man special-effect, I agree.  It was the one
most consistent with the plot.  It was also the most original.
Certainly more believable as a hallucination than the reality of an
ornate Egyptian temple concealed within a London warehouse.


Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
or   jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: sunset, ... sunrise [world design service] issue 452
Date: 17 Dec 85 00:09:20 GMT

Doesn't a similar situation occur on Mercury?  Due to the
eccentricity of the orbit and the length of the day, the sun will
appear to make a loop on its way across the sky.  So if you are
situated in the right place, the sun will set, rise, and set again.

Giving credit where it's due, this comes from an Isaac Asimov essay
(probably from F&SF).

david rickel

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: Feminism & SF: Comments from Brett Slocum
Date: 17 Dec 85 16:32:44 GMT



>From: Anthony Aristar <AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA>
> ... Larry Niven's writing is a good example here: strong female
>characters occur, but they're strong in ways which don't contradict
>traditional concepts of maleness and femaleness.  Teela of the
>Ringworld Series is *lucky*, not good at swinging a battle-ax.
>Only when she metamorphosizes into a protector, with a dramatically
>enhanced body and altered psychology, does physical violence become
>her forte.

I don't think this example applies -- I can't think of a SINGLE
EXAMPLE in any of Niven's writing where *any* of the lead characters
are good at swinging a battle-ax.  So what if Teela can't either?
It tells us that Niven doesn't much care for characters who get
ahead by swinging a battle-ax.  Should he therefore write one who is
female just to satisfy you that he isn't a chauvinist?  Feh.

>So therefore, my earlier question remains unanswered: what exactly
>was it that stopped this darker side of fandom from showing its
>hairy, macho face?

My suspicion is that it is social pressure.  An interesting point
about this: the only people I've ever known who would admit to being
John Norman fans at a con (this after *gasp* like 12 years of active
fandom) are women.  My hypothesis is that this is because the males
who read the things don't have the nerve to admit it -- unless the
only people who read them and go to conventions are women, which
seems the weaker hypothesis.

And by the way, watch it with the sexist references: you've
implicitly associated the "darker side of fandom" with the male sex
alone -- men are the only persons who commonly have hairy faces.

>>In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen
>>what a 5' 6" martial artist can do against a group of the most
>>awesome brawlers with weapons? I have, and I treat them with
>>respect (male or female).
>
>....  A Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or gymnastics
>than a real fight.  For obvious reasons (e.g. you'd decimate the MA
>community) you aren't allowed to land real blows.  You're judged on
>things like speed, technique, etc, and since women tend to be
>quicker and more supple than men, they do pretty well.
>....
>The only real fight I've ever seen between a martial-arts trained
>woman and an untrained but aggressive man was resolved in a brutish
>but effective manner -- he used his hands to keep her away, (she
>hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in the meantime), then he
>grappled her, and fell on her.

Then, as you say, her training was gotten in a dancing class.  This
is a real problem with martial arts in general -- you can teach the
student the moves, but will it work for real.  Luckily, most martial
arts training results in being able to avoid the fight entirely.

But it *is* likely that this occurred because she was unwilling to
take the chance of damaging the guy -- afraid to hurt him.  This
*is* probably due to the fact that she was a woman, but on a social
level rather than physical.

>So my earlier comment stands: SF with women eminently successful at
>violence is (do I dare use this word here?) fantasy.

And I've watched a 5 ft 4 in male Shotokan expert fight an untrained
but aggressive fellow a foot taller (and with greater reach) and
whup him in three count them three blows.  I've also fought kumite
with a brown belt who was my height (6'3") and an extremely alluring
red-headed woman.  But I never noticed 'cause I was usually getting
knocked on my ass.

And I can tell you from near certain knowledge -- she was not an
androgyne.

Are you seriously contending that women can't win fights against
bigger men as a result of fighting skill?  Would you say the same
thing about smaller males?  It just doesn't wash.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 20 Dec 85 1138-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #468
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Dec 85 1138-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #468
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 20 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 468

Today's Topics:

              Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Geston & Wolfe &
                      Multi-book Trilogies & Starlost &
                      Author Request,
              Films - Warriors of the Wind,
              Radio - Ruby,
              Television - Star Trek,
              Miscellaneous - Criticism & More Drinks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cbdkc1!gwe@caip.rutgers.edu ( George Erhart x4021 CB 3D288 WDS )
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 17 Dec 85 12:52:00 GMT

I read this book this past weekend and found it to be delightful
reading, however it is interesting to note that the back cover has a
prince Andre listed with the character's name in the book is prince
Andor. I always love to see how much the publisher pays attention to
the fine details.

I was also glad to see that the price of this book was kept
reasonable, I really hate to pay more then $3.50 for a paperback.

George Erhart at AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio
614-860-4021 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbdkc1!gwe

------------------------------

From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 18 Dec 85 14:21:07 GMT

This is the novel that SKZB was talking about some months ago that is
more-or-less set in Hungary.

                        Charlie Martin
                        (...mcnc!duke!crm)

------------------------------

From: cstvax!br@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Ritchie)
Subject: Mark S. Geston
Date: 18 Dec 85 17:18:46 GMT

    Many years ago, I borrowed two (or maybe three) books by Mark S.
Geston from my (small) home town's (very small) library, and rather
enjoyed his sombre little tales.

  "Out of the Mouth of the Dragon" (which may be an approximation to
the real title) pleased me most. It is set in a post-Armageddon
world where everyone is wishing the Universe would hurry up and end
properly instead of lingering on in a grey half-life, and follows
the life of a boy who goes off to fight in yet another War To End
All.

    MSG also wrote a book about a generations-long attempt by a
nation to build a spaceship to remove the entire population to
another planet, with struggles amongst various factions favouring or
opposing the plan.  This sounds rather like a hum-drum standard
plot, but as with the Dragon book, the world is a strange place:
beyond the mountains lies another nation, which these people never
see or communicate with, yet we are given the impression that their
purpose is malign.  Nothing more is told of this other nation, but
its darkness casts a shadow over the entire novel, and hearkens back
to my own childhood fears of unknown places.  Furthermore, the
ending is far from standard (or seemed so to me at that time), and
has stuck in my mind ever since.  Unfortunately, the same has not
happened with the title; perhaps because it was something dead
boring like "The Rocket"...?

    There may have been another book whose theme was vampire-like,
but I'm not entirely sure.

    The point of all this is that I'd like to know if Mark S. Geston
has writtem anything else, and whether or not he still writes.  Of
course, proper titles for the above books (plus publishing
details(*)) would be nice as well.

Brian Ritchie.

(*) The folk in the Edinburgh SF Bookshop told me that his work was
out of print, but they didn't say whether or not more was
forthcoming.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 19 Dec 1985 06:54:38-PST
From: roberts%tron.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Nigel Roberts)
Subject: Castle of the Otter

Does anyone know if a paperback (trade or otherwise) exists of this
book.

I'd dearly love to get hold of a copy, but have had no luck at all
over here. British bookstores tend to say if it's not on their lists
then they can't get it!.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Nigel
ROBERTS%TRON.DEC@decwrl.ARPA

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Multi-book trilogies
Date: 18 Dec 85 02:18:37 GMT

Actually there is already a word already for "multi-book trilogies."
They are called "series".
                                Mark Leeper
                                ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: scgvaxd!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Guernsey)
Subject: Re: Starlost... a novel?
Date: 18 Dec 85 18:49:55 GMT

Was that series off of one of Harlan Ellisons books?  I seem to
remember a book about an ark of globes.  The author left the end of
the book open and I was never able to find the rest of the books.
Does anybody out there know if they exist?  If so please respond
with the titles and where I can find them.
                                  Thanks,
                                         Bob Guernsey

------------------------------

Subject: "Nerve", by whom?
Date: 19 Dec 85 22:25:58 PST (Thu)
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

Yet another request, this time for author:

Quite a time ago, I read a very good book called "Nerve", about a
doctor (name, I think, of Adam McKinley) who developed an especially
fast neurotransmitter, and proceeded to experiment on himself with
it.  The effect was to increase considerably his reaction speed
(though with unpleasant side-effects that only became apparent over
time).  He would use his improved reactions to challenge the ranking
pro's of some sport where reaction time was key (such as ping-pong),
and rake in the winnings, intending to finance a neuroscience
research institute with them.

To make it interesting, I believe the first sport he tried was
boxing.  The coach to whom he went naturally told him to forget it:
he wasn't physically trained, and could easily be killed in the ring
with a pro.  Persuading the coach to let him have a brief demo round
with a pro who was instructed to take it easy on him, Adam showed
how he intended to survive: he was fast enough to dodge or deflect
any punch thrown at him, and, though he wasn't especially strong,
his own punches were extremely fast.  (Those who protest that pro
boxing is a lot more than just being fast enough are quite right,
and as I recall, McKinley found that out the hard way.)

The author, I'm positive, is a physician, which helped the story
greatly: its medical aspects were very accurate, which is important
when you know enough about biology and medicine to have inaccuracy
spoil a story for you.  However, the believability of the rest of
the story, which so often suffers as technical accuracy improves,
was equally good.

A very good read, and I recommend it.  But I'm blessed if I can
remember who the author is.  I'm certain it's not A. J. Cronin, who
has written several medical novels.  Sound familiar to anybody?

Thanks a lot,
Alastair Milne

------------------------------

From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Home Video Review
Date: 18 Dec 85 18:05:39 GMT

cutter%umass-boston.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes:
>There are decent characterisations (although Xandra has been
>accused of being too perfect), the voices are fine, and the editing
>has been minimal (all the original violence was left in), from 110
>minutes to 95 minutes. No storyline was lost in the translation.
>They also kept the original music. It is for sale or rent in most
>video stores.

What do you mean that no storyline was left out?  The whole
explanation of why Xandra (I much prefered the name NAUSICAA)
thought she could do any thing to prevent the war was left out.  The
cut material shows that Xandra can telepathically communicate with
the giant bugs.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 85 16:01:45 EST
From: Will Martin <wmartin@BRL.ARPA>
Subject: SF Radio - Ruby (answer)

It turns out I can answer my own question about the SF Radio series
"Ruby" from ZBS Studios. I wanted to know if there really were eight
or only six half-hour episodes in the currently-being-broadcast
half-hour-shows version. Well, after seeing my query on SF-Lovers,
Rich Zellich, who works at this agency, told me he had the tapes,
and loaned them to me! There are four tapes, each with from 15 to 20
short segments. This would work out to eight half-hour shows. So the
local station just messed up the sequence in which they were being
broadcast. (By the way, if any St. Louis area people are trying to
find WSIE to listen to these, they are not on the air right now.
They went off the air to do some antenna work last week, and I just
talked to someone there who says they have run into problems and
won't be on the air again until after New Year's. They'll pick up
the drama series where they left off.)

Regards, and happy holidays!

Will

------------------------------

Date: Thu 19 Dec 85 11:11:30-EST
From: Wang Zeep <G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek on video

You know, they could colorize "The Cage."  It wouldn't be hard as
they have some scenes in color.

They could also computer-enhance the blooper reel.  I've seen it and
it could really be cleaned up.

My only complaint about the ST episodes on videotape is that I would
appreciate 2 or 3 on a cartridge.  I hate having to buy new shelves
to store them.
                                wz

------------------------------

From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: More: Criticism and Reviews
Date: 17 Dec 85 17:51:00 GMT

barb@oliven writes:
>Having a joint B.A. degree in Fine Arts and English, I fear I've
>spent a great deal of time reviewing creations -- and reviewers.
>Reviewing is an art, it really is, and few people do it well.  But
>the major gist is: Most reviewers see what they expect to see.

Umm, certainly valid in some cases.  I had to fight my expectations
when I read ROBOTS AND EMPIRE.  In the other direction, I had to
fight the expectations I had when I read PRACTICE EFFECT after
STARTIDE.  I can only speak for myself though.  I would hope that
most reviewers/critics maintained enough intellectual honesty to
accept each work fresh, on its own merits, but I concede that I may
be unreasonably optimistic.

>And then they go on, in great detail, often, to prove to others
>that what they saw was actually in the work.  I wonder if
>Shakespeare really intended such a fascinating mosaic of meaning
>scholars have attributed him with.

I agree.  Part of the problem in reviewing a work though, is to
accept it for its own intentions.  For a reviewer to not be in
sympathy with a work's intentions is one thing; I accept it if it's
acknowledged up front.  Where it gets sticky is in trying to
establish what a work is trying to do; you can't (I don't belive)
judge the movies STAR WARS and 2001 by the same standards because
their intents are different.  Judging intent is tricky, but
necessary.

>I would think such works would be entirely too self-conscious to
>read.  (Note T.S.Elliot's *The Wasteland* -- which I actually think
>is a practical joke on reviewers/critics.)

True.  On the other hand, even an author might not be conscious of
all the intents working in a story/character/scene, so both writing
and reading can proceed without self-conciousness. I once wrote a
story opened with a intellectually/emotionally frustrated adolescent
prince looking out a balcony window, observing a servant sweeping a
courtyard below.  One of the comments I got was that the physical
isolation between prince and servant mirrored the psychological
isolation very well.  This hadn't occured to me, and yet it was
absolutely true.  (It was the wrong point-of-entry for the story,
but that's a different matter.)

>I recall a quote from somewhere: "Those that can't create, review."
>Or something along those lines.  I believe the statement is a bit
>too general and too harsh (though sometimes applicable).

I'll agree with your uncertainty.  It does seem that, on one hand,
one can't review adequately unless one understands the writing
process from the inside.  On the other hand, a review by an
unsuccessful writer is suspect to envy and jealousy if it's a
negative review, or ass-kissing if it's a positive review.  In
either event, the audience/author can ask, "Who is *s/he* to
criticize the work?"  A review by a peer, a seasoned pro, is even
more suspect to charges of jealousy/favoritism.

>But there is a real risk in reviewing to slip away from the work
>into a private world of (often) propaganda.  The review, in effect,
>becomes, as is said in music, a fantasy on a theme.

Amen.

>Every reviewer should remember, no matter how hard he/she tries to
>be objective, that he/she is stating an opinion.  His/Her opinion.
>Rather than saying, this book is trash (even if it is), say, 'It is
>my opinion that this book is trash, and here is why...'.  After
>all, one man's dross is another's treasure.

No dispute.  That's why I'm a lot more comfortable with reviews that
give readers a context/basis for the reviewer's belief.  If readers
agree with the context/basis, then they can have confidence in a
review; if not, the review can be ignored.

>Case in point -- Zelazany's *Lord of Light*.  It makes the all time
>top ten of a good friend's reading list, but my husband (the one
>who reads during t.v. commercials)(and usally through the programs,
>too) has never been able to finish it.  Does this make a
>qualitative judgement against *Lord of Light*?  No, for both
>responses are a matter of personal taste.
>
>You may enjoy High Opera.  I can't manage much heavier than Gilbert
>and Sullivan.  But I don't discount Wagner as junk.

I'm with you on the opera, on both counts.  This reflects one of my
pet themes, that Good Art is not synonomous with Good Read, or
whatever.  There are more or less agreed upon esthetic standards for
determining good art -- though the standards stand up only as long
as no one tries to define them too closely, and they do change with
time and culture.  Very few people (I think) would argue that a
Spiderman comic book is superior to FINNEGAN'S WAKE, but relatively
few people will read FW instead of the comic book.  FW meets high
artistic standards, whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

>Well, I have gone on too long.  (I know, never apologize -- I'm
>sorry.)  [:-)] But remember, ye reviewers with criticism on your
>keyboards, your opinion, though valid, is by no means universal.
>And, like everything I've here writ -- may be totally wrong.

Ditto.

Jim Brunet
{ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb
ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb
ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb
  or   jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 85 16:17:27 est
From: markl@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Mark L. Lambert)
Subject: pan-galactic gargle blaster

>Right. How to mix a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster:
>
>        1) Take a straight, chilled half-pint glass;
>        2) Add one measure of blue Curacoa;
>        3) Add two measures of Vodka;
>        4) Add one measure of Cointreau;
>        5) Make up to a half-pint with lemonade;
>        6) Add crushed ice, lemon, straws, plastic umbrellas etc;
>        7) Drink   --  but very carefully.....;
>
>   Just the thing for relaxing after a game of Krikket, or to
> relieve the terrible pain in all the diodes down your left hand
> side.  If anyone else has got any suggestions, improvements or
> other recipes, pass 'em on !

This also goes by the name "Blue Lagoon" (an innocent name for a
deadly concoction).  Here's MY nomination for a PGGB, which also
goes by the name "Suffering Bastard"...

   1)  1 oz Bacardi 151 rum
   2)  2 oz amber rum
   3)  2 oz light rum
   4)  1 oz triple sec (no sense wasting Cointreau on this...)
   5)  spoonful brown sugar
   6)  pineapple juice and OJ to fill 16oz glass
   7)  juice of a lemon
   8)  Wedge of cucumber (for the purist)
   9)  shake, pour in tall glass over crushed ice, add little
       tutti-frutti parasols, tiki-stirrers, etc...

from the bar at YoYodyne, Inc., Cambridge, MA...
Mark Lambert

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Dec 85 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #469
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 85 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #469
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 469

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anthony & Naguel & Footfall &
                       Requests Answered (2 msgs),
               Miscellaneous - Books into Movies &
                       Change & Aliens & Immortality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blast
Date: 19 Dec 85 18:55:00 GMT

Piers Anthony did indeed have the trilogy called the Kirlian Quest
trilogy.  However, Thousandstar was considered not part of the
trilogy, just the same setting.  Much like Anne McCaffrey and her
Dragonsong trilogy--same place, common characters, shared history
etc.

Also, book 4 to BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT is out in paperback.  I think
Piers is t rying to edge out Stephen Donaldson in largest novel
category(if you count all of the books as one).

------------------------------

From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: BLACK WATER editted by Alberto Manguel
Date: 18 Dec 85 14:00:45 GMT

The reason BLACK WATER doesn't seem like other American anthologies
is simple.  It's a _Canadian_ anthology, edited by Torontonian
Alberto Manguel and first published by a Canadian publisher (Lester
and Orpy Dennys, if I remember aright).  The Picador edition is a
reprint.

Incidentally, the anthology was made into a three hour radio
documentary series by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's IDEAS
series a few years back.

RJS in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Date: 18 Dec 85 17:49:31 GMT

perelgut@utai.UUCP (Stephen Perelgut) writes:
>Footfall is the latest collaboration between Niven and Pournelle.
>This is a BIG book (500 pages).  It has to be.  It has a BIG cast.
>
>The aliens are well thought out and their culture (what little of
>it appears within the story) makes a kind of sense.  I don't quite
>believe it, but...
>
>The story itself is nothing to write home about.  There is a cast
>of thousands all of whom turn out to know each other (quite
>frequently in the biblical sense of the word "know").

        To a large extent this is because they really *do* know each
other! Yes, that's right, a large part of the cast is based on
*real* people that Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle know.

>Remove the gratuitous sex, stupid coincidences, extra characters
>that don't add much to the plot (an entire survivalist group that
>exists in the book for one purpose [last 100 pages], which purpose
>is only there to move one character to the right place at the right
>time, who is only there to ...)  and you have a 125-150 page book
>without a lot to recommend it.

        Actually, the survivalist group is probably there because
Jerry Pournelle is a leader of the local survivalist group!

                                Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen
ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 20 Dec 1985 01:59:23-PST
From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: story request answered

> From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" <mooremj@eglin-vax>
> The story about the man who lands on a non-human planet and builds
> a glider for the natives was called "Something to Say" and
> appeared in Analog between 1961 and 1966. Sorry I can't nail it
> down any further!

"Something to Say" was by John Berryman and appeared in the August
1966 issue of ANALOG. It was reprinted in the anthology ANALOG 6
(edited by, of course, John Campbell, Jr.).

> The Gallegher stories are by Anthony Boucher and...  appear in the
> delightful collection _The_Compleat_Werewolf_.

By now, you should know that that isn't true.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Help! I need to know!
Date: 19 Dec 85 10:59:13 GMT

> From: muddcs!rracine  (Ray Racine)
> This is another I need to know about book which has haunted me for
> a few years now. It's an old book which was reprinted in a series
> of old time classics under Lynn Carter, who wrote the
> introduction.  The authors last name started with an H. (Hamiltion
> ??)
>
> The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the
> future.  The hero dreams his way there, I think.  All of
> humanity has taken refuge in a large pyramid of light and
> only a few hundred remain with fewer almost daily.
> Outside of the pyramid is evil in various incarnations....
> Absolutely everything was dark in the book, no sun at all,
> the entire atmosphere was something straight out
> of Edger Allen Poe.
>
> Lynn Carter writes a little epilogue saying to wait for the
> second book to soon be reprinted.  I have never seen it and
> you can imagine why I would.
>
> This is a tough one.  Does anyone out there remember it?

It's THE NIGHT LAND by William Hope Hodgson, first published in
1912. An abridged version under the title "A Dream of X" was
published the same year in a collection along with some poetry. This
short version was also published all by itself in 1977 by small
press publisher Donald M. Grant. The full version first appeared in
the US as part of the omnibus collection THE HOUSE ON THE BORDERLAND
AND OTHER NOVELS (Arkham House, 1946). It was published in paperback
in two volumes as part of the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series in
1972.

And by the way, it's LIN Carter, not Lynn Carter.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}
        !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 18 Dec 85 23:14:38 GMT

> 2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film
> done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the
> only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want
> to add new nominations?

Secret of NIMH is *much* better than the book.  I've seldom been so
disappointed in a book!  There is *no* real conflict!  As for good
translations of books to movies: Watership Down is very good, as is
The Last Unicorn (but then, Beagle wrote both book and screenplay).
(And Zero Mostel as Keehar in the former -- should have gotten an
Oscar!)(But then, I'm prejudiced.)

As for the problems of book and movie, is a problem of medium.  An
author has a comparatively easy pace to tell his/her story.  He/she
can play 'games', allowing the reader *inside* the characters'
heads, and he/she has no SPX budget to constrain him/her.  (There is
a Shelly Berman -- I believe -- spot on the advantages of radio over
television that illustrates this quite well.)  Given a movie, with a
budget, with certain 'laws' of capability within that budget to pull
off believable Special Effects, and with a two or so hour
limitation, you have some very interesting problems.  A novel into a
true-to its-origin good movie seems almost a contradiction in terms.
What do you leave out?  (I'm sure most of us >ththhtbbbbt!< at
condensed versions of "good" books.)  And what do you do with a
governing marketing/decision dept.  who doubts that 'quality' will
'play in Peoria'?

I don't mean to say that good movies from existing written formats
(novels, short stories, etc.) are not impossible -- indeed, there
are a few examples to the contrary; but they are difficult enough to
produce to be flamed unlikely -- as we have >shudder< seen.

Perhaps, someday, quality such as we crave will be the norm.  But,
having spent a couple recent sick days spinning the channels past
the Game Shows, Soap Operas, and afternoon Cartoons, I have my
fears.  We are then left to support, as we can, those endeavers
which *do* adhere to our needs for quality.  Perhaps, someday,
someone will listen.  (Or I'll make enough $$$$ to do it
myself!)(We're all entitled to a dream or two.)

Barb

------------------------------

From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling)
Subject: Waves in science fiction.
Date: 19 Dec 85 20:08:32 GMT

Recently I've grown curious over something.

Back when I was twelve I read all the science fiction I could get
hold of, which consisted of about ten Asimov books, eight by
Heinlein, and a couple of Bradbury collections.  (I was the
benefactor/victim of a rural upbringing.)  Anyway, I was twelve when
it was 1976, and the New Wave had already crested and passed by the
time I was through with the Golden Age.  The New Wave seems in
respect to have been an attempt to bring human values and attitudes
into what had previously been very Machine oriented fiction.  This
of course meant that surrealism was prevalent in much of the
"serious" SF published then.  Stories that spring to mind include
"Dahlgren" by Delany and "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" by
Ellison.  I was reading this stuff by the time I was fourteen
(having spent thirteen in my jr. high's library catching up on old
stuff I'd missed) and was mungo confused.  However, I had also just
discovered girls in a big way, so that in itself says little.

Now once more I'm confused, but it's over something different this
time.  Girls still mystify me, but New Wavish SF doesn't any more.
As a matter of fact, I find myself writing the stuff.  (By the way,
the story I sent to F&SF nine weeks ago, "Dream", is *still* in
limbo!  A rejection slip hurts, but this is something else.)  What
I'm wondering is this; do people, as in humans, change over time?
If so, what is the nature of the change?  Is it merely fashion?  Or
is it, as I implied in my story, a function of the evolution/
devolution of man's collective unconscience?  A friend of mine who
writes space opera, (quite well I might add) is under the opinion
that time changes nothing but the unit of currency.  I could pass
this off as nothing, but....

On reflection, Bradbury did a lot with perceptions and emotions, and
not all of it would be called conventional.  "Golden Apples of the
Sun" comes to mind.  Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps" is an
interesting case of a man driven, if not mad, then pissed off by his
strange lineage.  And the story "Scanners Live in Vain" by
Cordwainer Smith (?) is *incredible*!  These stories were the best
of the field at the time, may still be, and they contain an empathy
for the changed no less stunning than the New Wave stories of later
years.  Did it with less chest-beating, too.

Now, the question from a weird point of view; since these stories
were handled so well from the 'fifties, and the authors probably
didn't give a damn if they were making some kind of statement, *is
it proof that people don't change*?  Are these altered states
constant in our species, and our awareness of them fluctuating?
These stories were by the masters, remember, and were probably not
representative of the field.  Maybe only they at that time could
write about sometthing others couldn't see.

I can think of arguments for both sides of the issue, but my head
hurts and I may not take aspirin.  If you have an interesting idea,
post it wherever you like.  All flames should be sent here, where I
have the hot dogs ready.

Mark!

------------------------------

From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen)
Subject: Re: Space Is Clean
Date: 18 Dec 85 18:14:19 GMT

>From: Kurt <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
>>        There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of
>>possible forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the
>>structure of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in
>>about the same way as the interactions of subatomic particles are.
>Aren't you making some rather sweeping assumptions about what sort
>of environments life can arise in?  I think I agree that life forms
>from essentially terran environments are likely to bear great
>similarities to terran life, and may even have very close DNA
>analogues.  However, that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

        Not really assumptions, more like probability analyses. I
have actually spent quite a bit of time studying these issues. The
problem is that by the time you have covered all terran environments
that contain life you have covered most environments where life is
even possible, at least as far as I can determine on the basis of
organic and general chemistry.

>Consider the sulfur consuming life forms found in deep oceans,
>which follow a totally new and previously unsuspected food chain
>based not on solar but chemical energy (oh, solar way back, but
>fundamentally different in that no photosynthesizing plants are
>part of the chain).

        What previously unsuspected food chain? That type of food
chain has *long* been considered to have been the original food
chain on the Earth, before the invention of photosynthesis a billion
years or so *after* the first living thing. The only surprise here
is that this type of food chain *still* exists now. Besides, this is
*still* a terran life environment, with terran life forms, so my
thesis is still valid, life on other planets will tend to resemble
life in *some* environment or from *some* geological era on Earth.
(Note that is *resemble*, not 'be identical with')

>Surely, with the limited set of environmental conditions we have
>been able to examine, we are in no position to make any claims
>about what life forms are likely to arise or become sentient.

        We can however evaluate the conditions necessary for various
types of developement. Thus sentience requires manipulative ability,
and, except in high energy environments, animals(i.e. phagotrophic
organisms) require *motility*.

>With this lack of information, I'd also be unwilling to generalize
>about any chance of overlap.  One can imagine a number of possible
>cases where humans and aliens have no overlap at all except a need
>survive and to reproduce.

        Given the enormous variety of environments on Earth, and the
enormous variation that has occurred through time, we have a lot
*more* information than you think. Yes, there might be some life
forms on other planets that have no real equivalent on Earth(and
vice versa), but there will be many more life forms on any planet
that do correspond more or less with Earth life forms. That is other
planets will show an equally large range of life forms as Earth,
with a rather large area of overlap.

>There are also serious questions about whether the human world-view
>may have any resemblance to one developed by alien sentients,
>particularly those with vastly different body structures.

        Here you may have a point, though considering the vast
differences in world-view among different Earth-human cultures I
suspect that humans could at least *learn* the alien's world-view,
and they could probably learn ours.

Sarima (Stanley Friesen)
UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}
      !psivax!friesen
ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa

------------------------------

From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan)
Subject: Re: Immortality
Date: 12 Dec 85 19:44:21 GMT

> From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA>
>   He can't die.  He's immortal.

Depends on your definition of 'immortal.'  (Yes, I know Websters
defines it as "not mortal: exempt from death <~ gods> . . . exempt
oblivion . . . .")  But is 'he' (yes, I also know I'm coming in on
the middle of a discussion) immortal as in unkillable?  In my mind
there are two states of 'immortality.'  First, there is the
unkillable, thumb your nose at death variety (Superman *sans*
kryptonite and magic).  Then there is the variety that does not age
beyond adulthood, but can be killed (elves, for instance).

Any thoughts on the matter?

Barb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 23 Dec 85 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #470
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Dec 85 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #470
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Dec 1985     Volume 10 : Issue 470

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Brust & Dickson (2 msgs) &
                         Ellison (2 msgs) & Rosenberg & 
                         A Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop)
Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust
Date: 19 Dec 85 23:37:32 GMT

>   I just picked up a copy of Steven Brust's latest novel,
> "Brokedown Palace."  It's published by Ace and costs $3.50 in
> Canada, $2.95 in the U.S.A.  The printing date inside says January
> 1986.  I haven't had a chance to read it yet

I read it.  I recommend it.  It's quite good.  (Sadly however, it is
my least favorite of the four Brust books I've read so far.)

I do note that the cover blurb is incorrect, where it says

>   Prince Andre, a clever man - though perhaps a little shallow;

The character's name is "Andros". This caused me some confusion,
since there was this brother not mentioned on the cover, and a
brother mentioned on the cover I kept waiting to come out of the
wings.

There are also zillions of hooks by which to hang other tales, and
some possibility that this universe co-exists with Vlad's.  I hope
to read more about it.

------------------------------

From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey)
Subject: Gordon Dickson's Childe Cycle
Date: 18 Dec 85 23:29:20 GMT

Here is a brief summary of what I know about the Childe cycle. My
sources of information are some introductory material from a
Doubleday triple (Three to Dorsai!) and the 1979 Childe Cycle Status
Report, which I have seen elsewhere called 'out of date', though I
don't know why.

The original plan of the Cycle was twelve books; six SF, three
historical, and three contemporary. Right now five of the SF books
have been published, and depending on who you ask, either one or two
more or planned. In order (chronological order of Dickson's
universe), they are:

Necromancer
Tactics of Mistake
Dorsai!
Soldier, Ask Not
The Final Encyclopedia
Chantry Guild (planned????)
Childe (planned)

After finishing Childe (and also Chantry Guild?), Dickson plans to
go back and do the three historical novels, first one about a
fictional late Moyen Age/Early Renaissance warrior, Hawkwood, then
one about Milton, and then one about I forget who.

After that come the contemporary novels. I remember one is to be
about a military man about the time of WWII and the last about a
woman in the 1980s.  Dickson claimed (in 1979) that after The Final
Encyclopedia was published he expected to publish a Childe Cycle
novel about every other year. I don't know whether he still plans
that.

The Cycle as whole concerns itself with the evolution of humanity as
a kind of a racial organism, and in particular with the influence of
pivotal individuals on that history. Dickson's three archetypes are
the Man of War, the Man of Faith, and the Man of Philosophy. I
personally have found most of the series very nicely done but then I
enjoy things that are as much about civilizations as about
individual people. I also like supermen stories, which much of the
Cycle is.

Someone coming to this for the first time might want to start with
Tactics of Mistake, which talks about the origins of the Dorsai
people, who play an important role in the Cycle, and who also supply
the most important single character, Donal Graeme, whose influence
is very nearly pervasive.

Happy reading!

Norman Ramsey
ARPA: norman@lasspvax or  norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman

------------------------------

From: unirot!liz@caip.rutgers.edu (Mamaliz )
Subject: Re: Gordon Dickson's Childe Cycle
Date: 21 Dec 85 21:38:18 GMT

norman@lasspvax.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) writes:
>After finishing Childe (and also Chantry Guild?), Dickson plans to
>go back and do the three histrocial novels, first one about a
>fictional late Moyen Age/Early Renaissance warrior, Hawkwood, then
>one about Milton, and then one about I forget who.

Sir John Hawkwood is very definitely NOT a fictional character.  He
was an English soldier from the Hundred Years War, who at the
"conclusion" of the war went on to be the leader of a number of
mercenary bands in Northern Italy.

liz
caip!unirot!liz

------------------------------

From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE
Date: 19 Dec 85 17:22:51 GMT

tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
>As a professional writer, I abhorcensorship.  However, there is a
>great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of
>good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television.
>True, Harlan was the writer in question, but producer De Guere,
>actor Asner, whoever they selected as director, and the programming
>mavens at CBS all would have had to live with the fact that the
>terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and hispanic
>children would have been put in some children's minds.  Even if the
>resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the mere asking of
>the question may have been inappropriate to ask in prime time.

I don't buy this one bit.  I'm sure Ellison's episode would have
ended with a clear and emphatic point that Santa Claus comes to all
children.  I'm getting very tired of the idea that even the
suggestion of a bigotted or predjudiced idea, no matter how quickly
refuted, will damage children irrevocably.  I believe I saw an
episode or two dealing with injustice done to Jews (especially with
Holocaust overtones) -- why were these allowed?  From the summaries
of the episode, it sounded extrememly interesting, and I suspect
that it would have done much more against predjudice than for it.

>Consider, for instance, an episode from actor/director/child star
>Jackie Cooper's autobiography.  A director wanting boy-actor Jackie
>to cry his heart out on camera told Cooper that his pet dog had
>just been killed.  Cooper did indeed cry to the director's
>satisfaction.  Afterwards, the director revealed it had all been a
>"harmless" joke and Jackie's dog was fine.  The question: was it
>(either Ellison's raising the question of whether St. Nick likes
>visible minorities or the director's suggesting the dog was dead)
>justifiable?  Or are some ideas, especially those relating to and
>(given TZ's timeslot) targetted at children, best left unspoken?

I don't think your example relates to the TZ episode at all.
Ellison was writing a *STORY* which would show the stupidity and
invalidity of racial predjudice -- but for even mentioning the
subject, the thing gets canned.  Cooper is recounting a story where
he was (viciously, I think) tricked into believing his dog was dead
by someone he knew.  Do you believe that kids believe every single
thing that someone says on TV?  I don't think so -- they watch the
story, see what happens to (and with) the characters, and make
judgements from there; the story usually directs them in their
conclusions, and I'm sure Ellison would have utterly decimated the
predjudice angle.

Besides, I've seen many, many prime-time episodes that more-or-less
reveal that Santa Claus is a mythical creation (OK, maybe this is
open to debate :-) ).  Should these also be eliminated from
prime-time?

Perhaps the question is whether TZ deserves a later time period;
even though I don't agree on the fragility of kid's psyche, I think
a later time would suit it well.

>Ellsion has walked off virtually every long-term commitment he has
>ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media project
>that has ever come to fruition.  It was predictable that he would
>leave TZ in a huff.  It was only a matter of time.  I, too, think
>he has a wonderful way with the English language, but he is hardly
>irreplacable.  C'est la vie.

No arguments that Ellison is a pain-in-the-ass, strident, and (in my
mind) one of the worst critics ever put on this earth; I'd *like* to
dislike him.  But he writes so very well, and he attracts a lot of
talent.  I'll miss his stories and his touches very much on TZ,
though I think more credit for the show's success should be directed
at Phillip DeGuerre, a man who has consistently brought high quality
to his productions.

Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Dec 85 20:03 CST
From: Jerry Bakin <Bakin@HI-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits....

>  As a professional writer, I abhor censorship.  However, there is a
>great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of
>good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television.
>  Even if the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the
>mere asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in
>prime time.
>  Consider, for instance, an episode from actor/director/child star
>Jackie Cooper's autobiography.  A director wanting boy-actor Jackie
>to cry his heart out on camera told Cooper that his pet dog had
>just been killed.  Cooper did indeed cry to the director's
>satisfaction.  Afterwards, the director revealed it had all been a
>"harmless" joke and Jackie's dog was fine.  The question: was it
>(either Ellison's raising the question of whether St.  Nick likes
>visible minorities or the director's suggesting the dog was dead)
>justifiable?  Or are some ideas, especially those relating to and
>(given TZ's timeslot) targetted at children, best left unspoken?
>     RJS in Toronto
>     Posted c/o
>     Tom Nadas

I think that whomever this RJS is, this letter is very unfair to Mr.
Ellison.

My thoughts -- jumbled because of the brevity in which to write this.

Nackles (sic?), a story by Donald Westlake, was a story to have been
directed by Harlan Ellison.  I understand that the story has been
around awhile, yet this letter seems to imply that Ellison wrote the
story.

Producer DeGuerre has sided with Ellison on this issue.

Maintain your own good taste on TV, exercise the off switch.
Censors should not maintain my good taste for me.  Since when has
good taste had anything to do with TV.  Commercialism, genericism,
and blandism is the normal criteria for judging TV scripts.

Since when has TZ been a kiddy show?  If you are upset about kids
viewing it, two solutions: move it later in the evening, present a
notice about parental guidance is suggested.

The analogy of a director lying to Jackie Cooper about a real dog
has nothing to do with Harlan presenting a story on televison.

All in the family was presented at 8:00 at night on the same station
for a lot longer than the new TZ will be around.

Do children think the A-Team is real?  Do the networks think it is
alright to show children that violence and retribution is ok?  It's
the same thing, in any media, if the viewers cannot discern between
truth and fiction, should we ban that story?  Does RJS understand
the difference?  If you are afraid some viewers cannot understand
the difference then stick a disclaimer in the front.  But I assume
it is not an issue, since I see no disclaimers on other CBS shows.
Dallas is on right after TZ on the same channel (I think) Talk about
tasteless shows!  Talk about values?  Hey kids, what do you think of
J.R's sexual proclivity?  Hey isn't that great how J.R. can plot and
scheme so well.  And J.R. gets away with it.  I suspect Ed Asner and
Nackels were going to have a run in by the end of the show.

>Ellsion (sic) has walked off virtually every long-term commitment
>he has ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media
>project that has ever come to fruition.  It was predictable that he
>would leave TZ in a huff.  It was only a matter of time.  I, too,
>think he has a wonderful way with the English language, but he is
>hardly irreplacable.  C'est la vie.

Present some facts along with your interpretation.  Present some
cases where Harlan has walked off a long term commitment in which
you can say he was wrong.  Present the short-term media projects.
Yuor implication is that Ellison does this merely as a ploy to exit
contracts.  I want some evidence.  I think Ellison does it to
protect something that as a writer you might find some use for too:
his ethics.

Yes, I was afraid that sooner or later, Ellison would leave TZ.  I
suspected that sooner or later, probably sooner, the networks would
screw him JUST LIKE THEY SEEM TO HABITUALLY SCREW ANY CREATIVE
PERSON.  The fact that Harlan takes exception to this is laudable.

Harlan has not been the only writer to comment on Hollywood.  Read
"Chandler Speaks" (I think).  Raymond Chandler has several things to
say about what Hollywood does to artists.  Look at Hammett's career
to see what effect Hollywood can have.

Talk to Terry Gilliam about Hollywood.

Many people at many times have discussed the problems in Hollywood.

Many people have problems in many fields.  We don't need screeds
like RJS's which assume guilt.  RJS will have a wonderful time in
Hollywood, I think they are looking for spineless irrationals.

And sign your letters.

Jerry Bakin <Bakin at HI-Multics>

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: TIES OF BLOOD & SILVER by Joel Rosenberg (mild spoiler)
Date: 17 Dec 85 15:23:07 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "The city--or the alien Elwere-- city of rainbows, where the
  fortunes of the planet Oroga are concentrated in the grasping
  hands of the privileged few. To David, stolen from Elwere as a
  baby and raised as a thief of the Lower City, it is a dream of
  paradise, a treasure trove to which he must find the key, no
  matter what the cost...

  And Eschteef--a schrift of the jewel-and-precious-metals schtann,
  twice the size of a human, more than twice as strong, with
  frightfully glowing eyes and rows of needle-sharp teeth. It, too,
  has a dream, a dream of which David has suddenly become the
  crucial focus. And once a shrift has chosen, nothing can change
  its path.

  Elwere or the alien--two different roads to the future, leading to
  either wealth and power--or death..."

As usual, the jacket description is inaccurate. David doesn't dream
of living in Elwere, nor does he search for the "key" to fitting
into that society. He's more driven by events than in control of
them.

The book is mainly action and adventure. It takes place on an alien
world in a society that includes alien races. There's no emphasis on
new technology, but some time is spent talking about the kind of
society which has developed.

I had read Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series with much
pleasure.  This book comes as a disappointment. Just when things
start getting interesting, the plot takes an abrupt turn and new
characters appear.  As a result, all of the characters are rather
shallow, and I could never get engrossed in the story. There are
some good ideas here, but they aren't adequately developed.

I give the book 2.5 stars; it's good for a quick read, but it's not
very satisfying.

Duane Morse
..!noao!terak|anasazi!duane  or  ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Title Wanted - Kids' Book
Date: 20 Dec 85 16:11:00 GMT

The name of that was The City Underground, but the authors name
slipped from my memory years back...I read the book when I was
nine....and I actually went back to the Public Library on Montana
Ave. in Santa Monica to find it, but alas it was gone.  If anyone
knows where it can be found, I'd like to reread it out of sheer
curiosity.  The main character was a teenage boy and he meets a girl
with red hair.  I first read a portion of the story out of my
English textbook when I was in elementary school, and that with an
Arthur C. Clarke story was what I guess first hooked me on sci-fi.
I do remember that title, and the author was female, of that I'm
about 99% sure about.  Hope this is of help to you....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Dec 85 1525-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #471
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Dec 85 1525-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #471
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 471

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Brust & Hubbard & Offutt &
                    Robinson & Saberhagen & Stasheff &
                    Story Requests Answered (5 msgs) & A Request,
            Films - Books into Movies (2 msgs),
            Miscellaneous - Multi-volume Works & Con Update

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Anthony
Date: 18 Dec 85 21:55:59 GMT

mpm@hpfcla.UUCP writes:
>(So far his "Bio of a Space Tyrant" is a trilogy,
                                          ^^^^^^^
>but will it stay that way?  Also, I think there are five books in

Wrong!!!! (Gloat,gloat,gloat!)  See the 4th book in your favorite SF
bookstore.

>the series that contains "Thousandstar" and "Viscous Circle".  Did
>he ever call that one a trilogy?)

No, the "Tarot" series was a trilogy. The "Cluster" series ( which
includes the books you named) was never bounded by volume numbers.
Maybe because each book is independent of others ( kinda ). Over
all, Anthony, like Robert Vardeman, tends to suck the corps of ideas
dry before deciding to dump it.  (Well, so he DID write a few Xanth
books LONG AFTER there was nothing to write about).

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 85 17:17:19 EST
From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) <DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace

Yes, Brokedown Palace is indeed out!  It's reasonably good also!
This book seems to be SKZB's first attempt at more serious science
fiction.  He handles his characters well, giving most of them the
emotions that really make them come alive.

**SPOILER FOLLOWS..YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED (Insert flashing red light)**

The following are questions for people who've read the book, I"m not
going to summarize the book since people should read it themselves
and I'm very bad at summarizing.

It seemed to me that the story was really about revolution.  I'm not
quite sure about what the characters represented though.  Please let
me know your thoughts about this.  My guesses are:

The King represents Royalty (The King)
Vilkos represents the Army (Strength)
Miklos represents the Intellectuals
And the other brother (Andre?  I can't remember) represents Religion
Does the girl represent the peasants?
Did the Kings wife represent foreign powers/advisors?
And what (if anything) did the sorcerer represent?

It's times like this that I wish I'd taken a few more history classes.

Another thing I was wondering about.  I'm sure you all noticed that
the animals were the same as in Yendi/Jhereg.  And the fact that the
kingdom is *east* of Faerie kingdom.  Could this be pre-history to
Yendi/Jhereg?  There was the reference to a link to a central source
to use Faerie power which could be exactly like the link to the
emper(or|ess).  There was also a brief mention of witches and how
weak their power was compared to the sorcerors.  This would be
similar to the situation in Yendi/Jhereg.

On the otherhand, maybe this is just my imagination and it's all
just a Hungarian folk tale.  I could be reading things into it.

Joe
DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU    :   ARPA
HERMAN@UMDD           :   BITNET

------------------------------

From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Hubbard
Date: 18 Dec 85 21:55:59 GMT

I predict that the most audacious and blatant insult to readership
will be L.Ron Hubbard's "Invasion Plan Earth" (10!!! volumes). I
have taken a look at it - read a few pages. Boy, what a piece of
boring junk! Coupled with terrible writing style, L.Ron's latest
posthumous effort will hardly serve to elevate him above his dubious
success with his original endeavor - Space Opera he failed with in
the early days of SF.

Oleg Kiselev.
...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg
...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg

------------------------------

From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Shadow Spawn (no spoiler)
Date: 19 Dec 85 21:44:04 GMT

I have just heard from an informed sorce (the arthor via a letter to
a friend of mine) that Shadow Spawn by Andrew Offutt will not be out
until Auguest 1987.  The manuscript was not turned in until November
of this year and so the book will not be released for a while.

Joland

------------------------------

From: ada-uts!brianu@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Rare Robinson
Date: 20 Dec 85 20:12:00 GMT

I just picked up Spider Robinson's new anthology Melencholy
Elephants.  In the forward, Spider says that only a few copies of
the anthology Antinomy were sold and it is therefore a rare book.
Since I have a copy of Antinomy, I am curious just how rare it is.
Anybody know?

Brian Utterback
Intermetrics Inc.
733 Concord Ave. Cambridge MA. 02138. (617) 661-1840
UUCP: {cca!ima,ihnp4}!inmet!ada-uts!brianu
LIFE: UCLA!PCS!TELOS!CRAY!I**2

------------------------------

From: hp-pcd!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john)
Subject: Re: "Berserker Blue Death" by Fred Saber
Date: 18 Dec 85 16:44:00 GMT

Remember all the fuss about "Terminator" being a rip-off of
Saberhagen's Berserker novels? Well Hollywood is doing it to him
again. Some guy named Melville has taken "Blue Death" and rewrote it
into a movie. He changed the title character from a Blue Berserker
into a White Whale but the stories the same.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

Ps: :)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1985 08:33:16-EST (Monday)
From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: blurbs

I recently picked up "The Warlock Enraged" and noticed that on the
back it states that in Gramarye, the most common form of
transportation in telepathy.  I guess they must be really heavy
thinkers out there...

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Title Wanted - Kids' Book
Date: 22 Dec 85 00:10:04 PST (Sun)
From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa

The book that Ms. Eades is looking for, about an underground society
that discovers some surface dwellers, might possibly be either
_Half_Past_Human_ or _The_Godwhale_, both by T. J. Bass.  There are
a number of similarities between these books and what she describes;
the surface people have hair and the undergrounders are bald; the
undergrounders, while not children, are child-sized; and the
ordering of food by temperature, flavor, and color.

However, I would definitely not classify these as children's books.
There is a lot of detailed and sometimes nauseating discussion of
physiology, some explicit sex, and some fairly heavy philosophy.
Not easy reading, but quite good if you can get into it.  If Ellen
could get into it when she was a kid, she must have been quite a
kid!

Jef

------------------------------

Date: Sun 22 Dec 85 13:41:35-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!!

> From: muddcs!rracine@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Racine)
> The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the future.
> The hero dreams his way there, I think.  All of humanity has taken
> refuge in a large pyramid of light and only a few hundred remain
> with fewer almost daily.  Outside of the pyramid is evil in
> various incarnations.  I distinctly remember one was
> "HE-WHO-WATCHES-IN THE NORTH" in the shape of a huge crouching
> monstrosity which never moved, yet constantly drew closer and
> closer.  There are other capitalized evils in the east, west,
> ect... as well as other smaller evils which roamed freely.
> Absolutely everything was dark in the book, no sun at all, the
> entire atmosphere was something straight out of Edger Allen Poe.
>
> It was far and away the best sci-fi book I have ever read from the
> so called golden age of sci-fi.  It was well written and way ahead
> of it's time.

     This book is THE NIGHT LAND, by William Hope Hodgson,
originally published in 1912. I have a paperback reprint from
Britain (Sphere, 1981, # 0 7221 4765 1), which I picked up in a used
book store. I have not finished it yet, but it looks quite good. It
comes highly recommended, and not just by Lin Carter. It's also given
top marks by Baird Searles, and carries cover and flyleaf blurbs
from HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and CS Lewis, all of whom
proclaim it a masterpiece! It is not easy going; written in
quasi-17th century english, it is over 200,000 words long.
    I am not aware of a sequel, but it does not end in the way you
describe, so maybe your edition was split in two parts.

Peter Trei
oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

[Moderator's Note: Thanks also to David S. Cargo
(Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) who also sent similar information]

------------------------------

To: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Request for Book Info
Date: 23 Dec 85 23:30:24 PST (Mon)
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

I can't help on the second and third stories but the first, a
novella about a society which is based on "obs" is "...And Then
There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell in 1951.

The plot was simple, involving a mighty imperial battleship visiting
outlying planets to re-assert the central government.  It lands on a
paradise planet where everybody trusts everybody else, thus the
simple system of obligations.  Eventually all of the ship's crew go
AWOL to join the locals.  The title refers to the remaining ship's
crew.

Two collections which contain it are:
"The Science Fiction Hall of Fame vol. two A" ed. by Ben Bova, and
"Science Fiction: The Great Years" (NOT vol. two) ed. by Carol &
Frederik Pohl.

The main thing I remember about this story is that it was the first
time I had ever seen the now-infamous acronym "MYOB".

------------------------------

From: tekcrl!patc@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Caudill)
Subject: Re: story request
Date: 25 Dec 85 15:05:11 GMT

        obs (obligations) came from a story by Eric Frank Russel
which was one of three contained in the book "The Great Explosion".
Another story in the book used the word "myob" a lot. It was "Mind
Your Own Business" when the ~heros got out of line.
        EFR's stories are great (if you like the self reliant hero
and the REALLY dumb villian).
                        Pat Caudill
P.S. I also recommend "WASP" by him.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1985 08:27:54-EST (Monday)
From: Stephen Balzac  <SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: story request

Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", but
the other sounds like a story by Poul Anderson.  I don't remember
the title, but it can be found in a collection of his stories
called, "7 Conquests."

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ugjohna@caip.rutgers.edu (John Arrasjid)
Subject: sf book name
Date: 27 Dec 85 06:11:06 GMT

One more question..... I had heard of a book with the following
storyline (or close to it). If anyone has the name of the book, or
the author, or both, please let me know.

   A mysterious disease of epidemic proportions has spread around
   the world.  Only a few people are immune. A man takes his family
   into the wilderness of Canada to try to save them, but after
   awhile, his family gets the disease and he is the only survivor.
   He travels south through the US looking for other survivors and
   is tracked by Soviet agents trying to find an antidote.  They
   feel they can get one by studying the survivors (or something
   like that).

I'm not sure if that is the exact storyline I was told (over 5 years
ago) but it is fairly close. I've been looking for the book for a
while now but no-one seems to recognize the story line so I haven't
been able to locate it. Any clues? Please don't flame me if this is
an obvious story, I think I'll have enough from the last message I
posted (Silent Running).  thanks again

John Arrasjid
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:    [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugjohna
CSnet:   ugjohna@buffalo
ARPAnet: ugjohna%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: re: SF movies
Date: 21 Dec 85 17:40:56 GMT

Another sf (well, really fantasy) film that is at least as good as
its source is the recent release "The Company of Wolves".  This film
was based on the Angela Carter short story.  Angela Carter also
co-wrote the screen play.  This was a SHORT story (about 15 pages?).
Both the film and the story play all sorts of games (many freudian)
with the Little Red Riding Hood legend.  The mood of both is very
dreamy and etherial.  This is also the closest adaption of a writen
work to a film I've ever seen.  The film follows the story virtually
verbatium, except the film adds an outer layer of story dealing with
a 20th century girl.  This is an advantage of adapting a short story
to a film instead of a novel.  You'll always leave SOMETHING out of
a filmed novel.  The story can be found in the collection "The
Bloody Chamber".  The other stories also deal with the
re-interpretation of common myths (Little Red Riding Hood is done
several times).  While this was not a GREAT film (or story), it was
certainly well done and entertaining.

john

------------------------------

From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman)
Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 20 Dec 85 14:16:56 GMT

chuq@sun.uucp (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film
>done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the
>only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want to
>add new nominations?

"Blade Runner" better than P.K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of
Electric Sheep."

Hank Buurman       ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 22 Dec 1985 09:03:26-PST
From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: trilogies and other multi-volume works

Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines 'trilogy' as
follows:

        a series of three dramas or sometimes three literary or
        musical compositions that although each is in one sense
        complete are closely related and develop a single theme

By this definition, neither THE LORD OF THE RINGS nor THE BOOK OF
THE NEW SUN is a trilogy or tetralogy.  Rather, these are single
stories published in multiple volumes.  The individual volumes of
LOTR cannot stand alone as complete stories.

On the other hand, the Xanth books, the Riverworld series, and the
Hitchhikers tetralogy *do* fit the definition.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1985  09:30 EST
From: INGRIA@OZ.AI.MIT.EDU
Subject: ReaderCon Update #1

I have been asked to post this message to the net.  I am not
involved with organizing it, but I will gladly forward any messages,
questions, reactions, etc. to the organizers.

Bob
(INGRIA@MC)
                        Readercon Update #1

READERCON, the convention for those who spend more time READING
imaginative fiction that watching or playing it, has a few
announcements:

    -we have signed GENE WOLFE, one of the  finest  imaginative
     writers  and  prose  stylists of our time, to be our first
     Writer G.O.H.  He joins  Publisher  G.O.H.  Mark  Ziesing,
     whose  small  press  has  brought  out books by Wolfe, Ian
     Watson, A.A. Attanasio, and the late Philip K. Dick.

    -we now have a date (June 27--28, 1987[please note  year]),
     and  our  location will be the Hotel Bradford in Boston, a
     classic hotel  in  the  theatre  district  which  will  be
     undergoing extensive renovation and restoration in 1986.

    -two   forms   of   membership  are  available:  SUPPORTING
     memberships (includes Progress Reports, Program Book,  and
     post-con  Final  Report)  and  ATTENDING memberships.  For
     more details, write to the address below.

    -we will be sponsoring awards for Small  Press  achievement
     in this field.  Details to follow when we figure them out.

    -our  second  flyer,  with  details  on  the  above, is now
     available for a #10 S.A.S.E. to:

         ReaderCon
         P.O. Box 6138
         Boston, MA 02209

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date: 31 Dec 85 1544-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #472
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Dec 85 1544-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V10 #472
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 Dec 1985    Volume 10 : Issue 472

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust & Donaldson & Geston & Lee &
                     Mezo & Zelazny & Story Request & An Answer,
             Films - Enemy Mine & Books into Films (3 msgs) &
                     Movie Name Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek)
Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace: relationship between BP and J & Y
Date: 24 Dec 85 01:08:19 GMT

[BP => Brokedown Palace, J & Y => Jhereg and Yendi]

I believe that the `magic of Faerie' in BP is the source for the
witchcraft in J & Y.  The orb seems to be mechanical, and somehow
involved with the genetic-manipulation episode in what I guess is
the future of BP.

Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251)
UUCP:   seismo!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs           ARPA:   chris@mimsy.umd.edu

------------------------------

From: utecfc!kalpin@caip.rutgers.edu (Jordan E Kalpin)
Subject: Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
Date: 21 Dec 85 07:51:20 GMT

Does anyone know if there is ever going to be a seventh book in the
Thomas Covenant series by Donaldson?  I was wondering if he was
working on a new trilogy to compliment the first two.  Perhaps it
would be called, "The chronicles of Linden Avery".

I would appreciate any information.....

Jordan Kalpin
Mechanical Engineering
University of Toronto

------------------------------

To: Brian Ritchie <cstvax!br@caip.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Re: Mark S. Geston
Date: 26 Dec 85 10:07:20 PST (Thu)
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

Geston also wrote "The Siege of Wonder", involving the final battle
between scientists and magicians.  Unlike most such stories, this is
not set in the past, when magic is dying out and science is just
being discovered.  Instead, Magic has long been forgotten by most of
the civilized world, and science is somewhere slightly superior to
our level today.  Sudennly the magicians come out of the closet, and
the war begins.  Magic doesn't have a chance, since the scientists
use their techniques to learn how to control magic most efficiently
(wthout understanding exactly why it works), and build machines to
manipulate magic in a big way.  A great premise and beginning, but a
weak and depressing ending.

------------------------------

From: unirot!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins)
Subject: Tanith Lee - Days of Grass
Date: 24 Dec 85 06:36:10 GMT

I just read 'Days of Grass' by Tanith Lee, and was fairly impressed.
The plot is pretty thin, but she makes it all very real somehow.

What bothers me, is that when I first read 'The Birthgrave' it
showed this same art of making a rather strange internal 'alternate
reality' stike home, although it falls apart at the end.  I've been
kind of dissapointed by most of her work since.

Does anybody have any feelings on she's playing games below her
potential, or was I just overly impressed by 'The Birthgrave'?

George Robbins
P.O. Box 177
Lincoln U, PA  19352
uucp:   ...!ihnp4!tapa!grr
        ...!caip!unirot!grr

------------------------------

From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: UNLESS SHE BURN by Francine Mezo (mild spoiler)
Date: 25 Dec 85 00:52:23 GMT

The jacket reads:

  "Spacewarp--the collapse of time and space--plunges Fleet Captain
  Areia Darenga's ship to a hostile planet where she becomes an
  outcast, living alone in the harsh and desolate reaches of the
  Yarbeen. There she is rescued by M'landan, a handsome alien
  priest, over seven feet tall, who awakens in her a disturbing
  passion and mystical visions of a new and tempting world.

  Punished and cast out from his kingdom, M'landan and his beautiful
  High Priestess live in seclusion. But still they will risk
  everything for a forbidden love, a love that will cost M'landan
  his future--but save his people from certain extinction."

This book is the second of a trilogy, the first being THE FALL OF
WORLDS and the last being NO EARTHLY SHORE. If I hadn't read the
first of the series and given it four stars, I doubt that I would
have purchased the second based on the jacket summary--it just
doesn't sound like my type of book.

The quoted summary is fair enough, though rather sensational. The
first sentence, in fact, gives the reader more information about
what went on before than is found in the book; if you start reading
this book without having read the first, you'll probably find things
somewhat confusing.

This particular book doesn't spend much time on technology and
science, but emphasizes the characters and the alien society, and it
reminds me somewhat of DUNE--an outworlder starting to play a major
part in an alien land, mystical occurrences, passions, violence.
The major character is very believable, and one of the author's
strong points is the ability to create situations in which the
reader shares Darenga's anger and frustration and excitement.  The
plot is fairly interesting, but I suspect that it is primarily a
bridge between the first and third books (a necessary bridge, I
hasten to add, because it explains M'landan society and religion).

I give this one 3.5 stars (very, very good), and I look forward to
reading book 3.

Duane Morse
...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane  or  ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane
(602) 870-3330

------------------------------

From: interran@Shasta.ARPA
Subject: DREAM MASTER by Roger Zelany (spoiler)
Date: 21 Dec 85 07:16:54 GMT

  * SPOILER - don't read if you haven't read the book - SPOILER *

I've just read DREAM MASTER by Roger Zelany... can you explain the
ending to me?

Did or didn't Charles Render free himself from the trap of Eileen
Shallot's dream?

Last we saw Render, he'd fallen into a chasm (remember, this is a
dream) rather than remain trapped in Eileen Shallot's dream. This
seems to indicate he freed himself from her control - at the cost of
his sanity. Is this true?

Then someone asks to see him and is told he can't see Render now -
perhaps sometime next year. (Seems as if Render is in a hospital and
being rehabilated???)

Then we have a wounded knight in armor (Render?) lying in a
courtyard waiting for something. A bearded servitor (his healer -
Bartelmetz?) tells him the sails of an approaching ship are black.
However, the knight sees them as white and says "Ksolde! You have
kept faith! You have returned!" The servitor pushes the red button
that ends the dream, and night falls again.

Who or what was the knight (Render) waiting for, and why did the
servitor (the dream master) want him to give up his waiting?
Apparently Render is still undergoing rehabilation to heal his
psychic wounds, but what are they?

Finally, why did Eileen Shallot want to trap Render in her dream and
take control of the dream? What would have happened if she had won
and Render had joined her rather than fall into the chasm? They
couldn't remain dreaming forever or they'd starve. What good does it
do her to have control of Render's dream then? She'd still be blind
after they woke up.

Well, these are my questions. I'd appreciate it if you could explain
the ending for me if you understand it better than I do.

John

------------------------------

From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.)
Subject: "We All Died..." author request
Date: 23 Dec 85 01:00:38 GMT

A long time ago, I read a book titled "We All Died At Breakaway
Station."  I cannot remember who wrote it.  Do any of you know?
Short spoiler-

Humans are at war with a race of monosexual beings called Jillies.
The story follows the life of the captain of a starship stationed at
Breakaway Station.  The station is eventually overrun, and the
humans attempt to escape.  The starships travelled by making
hyperspace microjumps.  The on-board computer is sentient, goes by
the name of rog(?), and spoke in lowercase only (probably a unix-box
:-).  I won't reveal the ending, but I guess you can all do that for
yourselves...

Does this strike a familiar chord with anyone?


Jonathan D. Trudel
arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu
uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel

------------------------------

From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: "We All Died..." author request
Date: 23 Dec 85 18:14:48 GMT

     I believe that "We All Died..." is by Richard Meredith. (I've
got it somewhere around here, but you know how THAT goes :-) )

Mike Farren
uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren
Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667
USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: ENEMY MINE
Date: 22 Dec 85 00:06:07 GMT

                             ENEMY MINE
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review: Film adaptation of Barry Longyear's story
     slams home its message of racial tolerance.  The matte and
     model work are more imaginative but less well-executed than is
     expected these days.

     Last Christmas season brought two major science fiction films
to grab the holiday market.  Neither DUNE nor 2010 did very well at
the box office, so this year we get only one.  ENEMY MINE is an
adaptation of the Hugo- winning novella by Barry Longyear.  The
story is a cross between the plots of two Sixties films, HELL IN THE
PACIFIC and ROBINSON CRUSOE ON MARS.  A human and an enemy alien are
stranded together on a planet and must overcome their instinctive
mutual hatred if they are to survive.  There is more plot to the
story than that, but that is the core of what ENEMY MINE is all
about.  The film talks down to its audience at a slight incline when
presenting its message of tolerance for those different than
ourselves.

     ENEMY MINE was directed by Wolfgang Peterson, who previously
directed DAS BOOT, one of the best films ever made about submarine
warfare, and THE NEVERENDING STORY, which rose above the mismatched
patchwork of ideas and images it had only because some of the ideas
were really interesting.  ENEMY MINE goes to the other extreme from
THE NEVERENDING STORY.  ENEMY MINE is a little too pat, a little too
simplistic.  Peterson took over the reins from the film's first
director, Richard Loncraine.  (Why Fox threw out Loncraine and nine
million dollars of his work in unclear.  People in production report
that Loncraine's version of the story was as good as Peterson's.)
Peterson had the alien make-up done over--a number of times, in
fact.  The resulting make-up does not quite look believable,
particularly a tail that looks borrowed from a stuffed animal.

     Dennis Quaid of THE RIGHT STUFF, DREAMSCAPE, and BREAKING AWAY
stars as the human and Lou Gossett, Jr. (AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN,
SADAT) is quite good as the alien.  Also on hand is Brion James,
continuing a career of belligerent parts like the replicant Leon in
BLADERUNNER and the head redneck in the "Mummy Daddy" episode of
AMAZING STORIES.

     The special effects of ENEMY MINE are fun rather than
believable.  Much of the landscape is provided by unconvincing matte
paintings.  Curiously enough, these were done by Industrial Light
and Magic, who usually have much higher standards.  The spacecraft
models were created by the Bavaria Studios model unit.  They look
like something off the cover of a Sixties science fiction book.
When one crash-lands on a planet it is obviously model work, but it
fun to watch much like a similar landing was fun to watch at the
climax of WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE.

     In total, there is much to like in ENEMY MINE, but curiously
the adaptation of the prize-winning story it was based on is what
lets it down.  Give it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.  The film is just
a bit simplistic in its Yuletide plea for peace off earth and good
will toward aliens.

Mark R. Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 21 Dec 85 21:35:58 GMT

> 2001, by the way, is truly a special case.  Not only is it a film
>done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the
>only SF film that was BETTER than the book was.  Anyone else want
>to add new nominations?

QUEST FOR LOVE is better than the John Wyndham story "Random Quest"
on which it was based.

I assume you don't count books based on films which are often not as
good as the film, only rarely are they actually better (TARZAN AND
THE VALLEY OF GOLD and FANTASTIC VOYAGE as examples that it does
happen).

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: SF Movies and such
Date: 21 Dec 85 21:57:30 GMT

barb@oliven.UUCP (Barbara Jernigan) writes:
>As for the problems of book and movie, is a problem of medium.  An
>author has a comparatively easy pace to tell his/her story.  He/she
>can play 'games', allowing the reader *inside* the characters'
>heads, and he/she has no SPX budget to constrain him/her.  (There
>is a Shelly Berman -- I believe -- spot on the advantages of radio
>over television that illustrates this quite well.)  Given a movie,
>with a budget, with certain 'laws' of capability within that budget
>to pull off believable Special Effects, and with a two or so hour
>limitation, you have some very interesting problems.  A novel into
>a true-to its-origin good movie seems almost a contradiction in
>terms.  What do you leave out?

Case in point: DUNE.  No, the movie wasn't the book, and it
contained such nonsense as the Baron's harkening toward another
infamous Baron Vlad (those plugs in people's chests) and the
``weirding boxes''; but how in the universe do you show Baron
Harkonnen's depravity in a movie which can't show everything (anyone
for a ten-hour movie?), and, as for Voice, how do you show *that* in
a movie?  My opinion is that any movie calling itself DUNE simply
*cannot* be a screenplay of the book.  Then there's the endings of
2001 and THE BLACK HOLE, both of which lose even with SFX because
you can never *show* what's really going on; it defies translation
to visual media.

Brandon
ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA
 or ..decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery
(..ncoast!tdi2!root for business)
6615 Center St., Mentor, OH 44060
Phone: +01 216 974 9210
CIS 74106,1032
MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time)

------------------------------

From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine]
Date: 24 Dec 85 14:34:00 GMT

CHARLY *better* than Flowers_for_Algernon??? Yuk!  The film wasn't
bad, if you *don't* compare it to the book -- but once you do...

PLANET OF THE APES was an abomination compared to the book. It's a
typical Hollywood product -- "Hey, this sounds great...apes running
the world and having humans as slaves...yeah, and we can tie in a
Third World War at the same time...Great!" The book was subtle and
intriguing and had *nothing* to do with our blowing ourselves up.
Read it sometime.

Diane Holt
Interactive Systems Corp.
ima!ism780

------------------------------

From: sunybcs!ugjohna@caip.rutgers.edu (John Arrasjid)
Subject: name of movie
Date: 26 Dec 85 05:22:09 GMT

I'm looking for the name of a movie set in the future. The story
line goes something like this....

  The earth is overpopulated and there is no more plant life, so
  huge space greenhouses are built that grow plants and small animal
  life for food, and produce oxygen to bring back to earth. There
  are little robots that work on the station in addition to a small
  human crew. In the end, one of the crew decides to commit suicide
  by blowing up all the pods of the green house.

If anyone knows the name of this movie, please send me mail. It came
out before 1975. I believe it was even close to the release date of
2001: A space oddyssey I think the name was began with the word
"Silent".  thanx

John Arrasjid
SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
UUCP:    [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugjohna
CSnet:   ugjohna@buffalo
ARPAnet: ugjohna%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


