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*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 88 0837-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #1
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:

                   Administrivia - Happy New Year,
                   Books - Fantasy Recommendations (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 10:00:10 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Administrivia

   Well, here it is, the first digest of the New Year, Issue #1,
Volume 13 (I am not superstitious, I am not superstitious, ...).  I
hope all of you had a Merry Christmas (or Channukah or Solstice Day
or whatever you happen to celebrate this time of year) and are ready
for another year's worth of SF.
   The last digest for Volume 12 was #557 and all back issues are
available via the normal means.  There will be a message in a later
digest on how to get at the archives.
   There are going to be some changes for this forum over the next
couple of weeks and I will be announcing them shortly.  Most of them
will have no effect on the digest itself but may be interesting to
know about anyway.  Most of the changes are administrative.
  To start off the New Year, I wish to apologize to all the BITNET
people out there.  Due to some administrative problems I have been
unable to exert any sort of control over the BITNET side of things
since shortly before Christmas and as a result, there are about 50
requests for additions/deletions that I have been unable to take
care of.  I hope this has all been straightened out now and the
gremlins have gone back to the North Pole with Santa Claus.
  Well, that's all the space I will waste this issue and I'll be
back next time with some announcements...

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 87 05:04:16 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series

Two months back, ELIZABETH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@xx.lcs.mit.edu
(Elizabeth Willey) asked (among other things):

> Does anyone have a complete list of the Ballantine Classic Fantasy
> reprints?

Well, it took me a while to track down my list, but here 'tis.  The
books flagged with an asterisk are those that are original novels in
the series rather than classic reprints

Anderson, Poul          The Broken Sword        *
                        Hrolf Kraki's Saga      *

Ariosto, Ludivico       Orlando Furioso  [a new prose translation]

Beckford, William       Vathek

Bok, Hannes             Beyond the Golden Stair
                        The Sorceror's Ship

Bramah, Ernest          Kai Lung Unrolls His Mat
                        Kai Lung's Golden Hours

Cabell, James Branch    The Cream of the Jest
                        Domnei
                        Figures of Earth
                        The High Place
                        The Silver Stallion
                        Something About Eve

Carter, Lin  [editor]   Discoveries in Fantasy
                        Dragons, Elves, and Heroes
                        Golden Cities, Far
                        Great Short Novels of Adult Fantasy I
                        Great Short Novels of Adult Fantasy II
                        Imaginary Worlds
                        New Worlds for Old
                        The Spawn of Cthulhu
                        The Young Magicians

Chant, Joy              Red Moon and Black Mountain     *

Chesterton, G.K.        The Man Who Was Thursday

Cooper, Edmund &
  Roger Lancelyn Green  Double Phoenix

Crawford, F. Marion     Khaled

Cutliffe Hyne, C.J.     The Lost Continent

de Camp, L. Sprague &
  Fletcher Pratt        Land of Unreason

Dunsany, Lord           At the Edge of the World
                        Beyond the Fields We Know
                        Don Rodriguez: Chronicles of Shadow Valley
                        The King of Elfland's Daughter
                        Over the Hills and Far Away

Haggard, H. Rider       The People of the Mist
    & Andrew Lang       The World's Desire

Hodgson, William Hope   The Boats of the "Glen Carrig"
                        The Night Land  [2 volumes]

Kurtz, Katherine        Deryni Rising           *
                        Deryni Checkmate        *
                        High Deryni             *

Laubenthal, Sanders Anne        Excalibur       *

Lindsay, David          A Voyage to Arcturus

Lovecraft, H.P.         The Doom That Came to Sarnath
                        The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath

MacDonald, George       Evenor
                        Lilith
                        Phantastes

Machen, Arthur          The Three Imposters

Meredith, George        The Shaving of Shagpat

Mirrlees, Hope          Lud-in-the-Mist

Morris, William         The Sundering Flood
                        The Water of Wondrous Isles
                        The Well at World's End  [2 volumes]
                        The Wood Beyond the World

Peake, Mervyn           Titus Groan
                        Gormanghast
                        Titus Alone

Pratt, Fletcher         The Blue Star

Smith, Clark Ashton     Hyperborea
                        Poseidonis
                        Xiccarph
                        Zothique

Walton, Evangeline      The Island of the Mighty
                        The Children of Llyr    *
                        The Song of Rhiannon    *

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 87 03:01:40 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Fantasy books

From:   jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU      (Juan Faidley)

> THE BOOK OF THE NEW URTH (HB,BC)

URTH OF THE NEW SUN.

> DRAGONQUEST (PB)
> DRAGONRIDE (PB)
> THE WHITE DRAGON (PB)
> MORETA: DRAGONLADY OF PERN (PB,BC)

Actually the second listed should be DRAGONFLIGHT, and should be
listed first. There's also NERILKA'S STORY and the three juveniles:
DRAGONSONG, DRAGONSINGER, and DRAGONDRUMS.

> THE BLACK COMPANY (PB)
> A second book whose title I can't remember.

SHADOWS LINGER.

> THE WHITE ROSE (PB)
> GOLD STALK (PB,BC)

GODSTALK.

> Empire of the East: by Fred Saberhagen

> THE BROKEN LANDS (PB)
> and two other books

THE BLACK MOUNTAINS and CHANGELING EARTH.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 87 05:27:44 GMT
From: garfield!ewilliam@RUTGERS.EDU (Edward Williams)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

I would like to suggest some other excellent(in my opinion) fantasy
novels which I sure you would enjoy.  These are:

1. Any of Terry Brooks' novels
      Sword of Shanara
      Elfstones of Shanara
      Wishsong of Shanara

2. Any of Robert Adams' novels
      Horseclans novels (17 volumes)

3. Any of Edgar Rice Burroughs' novels
      Mars series
      Venus series

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 87 14:59:31 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

ewilliam@garfield.UUCP (Edward Williams) writes:
>I would like to suggest some other excellent(in my opinion) fantasy
>novels which I sure you would enjoy.  These are:
>1. Any of Terry Brooks' novels
>2. Any of Robert Adams' novels
>3. Any of Edgar Rice Burroughs' novels

Without getting into it (mainly because I'm pretty tired of it, but
will respond to anyone who asks me via e-mail), I have to say that I
wouldn't recommend ANY of these to my worst enemy's dog, let alone
to intelligent human beings.

Possible exception: ERB's Mars books, if you're looking for real
dumb hack-'em slash-'em stories that pretend (but not very hard) to
be science fiction.  If you don't mind real dumb hack-'em slash-'em
stories, they're actually pretty entertaining.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 87 09:39:08 PST
From: kasper%grok.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Beverly Kasper)
Subject: Fantasy Books

Another author to look for is Jack Chalker.  Some of his stuff (the
Well of Souls trilogy, for example) could be called sf if you wanted
to push it, but the River of the Dancing Gods trilogy and the Soul
Rider series are definitely fantasy.  I think "Web of the Chozen" is
the only single-volume Chalker I've seen!  He's into epics.

I concur on the recommendation of the Amber series.  Get the SF Book
Club version of the chronicles, though -- that way his cliff-hanger
endings won't send you up the wall.

Beverly Kasper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 87 12:59 EDT
From: <MANAGER%smith.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: fantasy recs

>      I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer and
> now I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for their
> favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY stuff.  No
> sf please, only fantasy.

To stuff already recommended, I would add:

   Mercedes Lackey
      Arrows of the Queen (I hope I got that title right...)
      Arrow's Flight
      and a third book to be released in January of '88

These books have many merits, but what I liked best about them is
that they successfully used the sort of setting that has been done
to death in fantasy (i.e., lots of feudal-age, European, chivalric
overtones).  By mixing this kind of setting with an enlightened
monarchy and a little deus ex machina, Lackey creates a background
that is familiar enough to orient the reader, yet different enough
to provoke interest.

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 00:30:20 GMT
From: sputnik!kmr@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl MacRae)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>>novels which I sure you would enjoy.  These are:
>>1. Any of Terry Brooks' novels
>>2. Any of Robert Adams' novels
>>3. Any of Edgar Rice Burroughs' novels
>Without getting into it (mainly because I'm pretty tired of it, but
>will respond to anyone who asks me via e-mail), I have to say that
>I wouldn't recommend ANY of these to my worst enemy's dog, let
>alone to intelligent human beings.
>
>Possible exception: ERB's Mars books, if you're looking for real
>dumb hack-'em slash-'em stories that pretend (but not very hard) to
>be science fiction.  If you don't mind real dumb hack-'em slash-'em
>stories, they're actually pretty entertaining.

   1) I agree completly; Terry Brooks is a *hack*, who's spending
his life writing lousy Tolkien rip-offs!

   3) I've never met anyone who'd defend ERB as an *author*, but he
is a great *storyteller*; somehow, even though all of the plots in
all of his 100+ books are about the same, and his prose is awful,
He's still fun to read... Especially the first couple of Tarzan
books, and the Venus series.

Karl MacRae
UUCP: kmr!sun
ARPA: kmr@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 08:15:35 GMT
From: dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

MANAGER@smith.BITNET (Mary Malmros) writes:
>I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer and now I
>can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for their
>favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY stuff.  No
>sf please, only fantasy.

I've been a fantasy fan for years, and my tastes in the genre have
changed many times, but this is a list of my own favorites:

James P. Blaylock
   The Elfin Ship
   The Disappearing Dwarf (These two are a set, hard to find but
      Great!)
   The digging Leviathan
   Homunculus
   The Land of Dreams

Tim Powers
   On Strange Tides
   Drawing of the Dark
   The Anubis Gate

John Bellaires
   The Face in the Frost
   (Anyone know if he's done anything else???)

Anne McCaffrey
   Dragon Flight
   Dragon Quest
   The White Dragon
   Dragon Song
   Dragon Singer
   Dragon Drums
   Nerlika's Story
   Moreta's ride

Christopher Stasheff
   The Warlock Series...(up to 8 books now, I think)...with titles
      like:
         Warlock Unlocked
         Warlock Enraged
         Warlock In Spite of Himself
         King Kobold Revisited
         Etc.

Sherri S. Tepper
   King's Blood Four
   Necromancer's Nine
   Wizard's Eleven
   The Flight of Mavin Manyshaped
   The Song of Mavin Manyshaped
   (One other Mavin book, name escapes me)
   Jinnian Footseer
   (Two other Jinnian books, ditto)

J.R.R. Tolkien
   All, especially the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy

Roger Zelazny
   Changeling
   Madwand
   The Amber Series

Raymond E. Feist
   Magician: Apprentice
   Magician: Master
   Silverthorn
   A darkness at Sethenon
   Daughter of the Empire (with Janny Wurtz)
   Faery Tale (forthcoming in January)

Joel Rosenberg
   The Guardians of the Flame Series

L. Sprague DeCamp
   the Unbeheaded King Trilogy

Some other books:
   Cudgels Saga, Cudgels Quest, The Eyes of the Overlord, The
Thieves' World Series (10 books so far, plus 7 or 8 spinn offs), The
MYTH series by robert Asprin, Any of Diane Duane's books.

I would also recommend the works of Piers Anthony, particulary The
Incarnations of Immortality Series, the Xanth Series and The
Apprentice Adept Series, but do not want to start another flame
binge here - but these are great, none-the-less!

Enjoy and Happy New Year!

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 21:53:44 GMT
From: wisner@OBERON.LCS.MIT.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) enumerates some of his favorite
fantasy novels for the benefit of a newcomer to the genre.  Among
the selections:

>Anne McCaffrey

So, there's hope after all. Now if we can just break him of this
Piers Anthony thing.. :-)

>Dragon Flight
>Dragon Quest
>The White Dragon

Those three make up a trilogy, The Dragonriders of Pern.

>Dragon Song
>Dragon Singer
>Dragon Drums

Another trilogy, usually referred to as "The Harperhall Trilogy" or
some such.

>Moreta's ride

Or, more properly, Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern

>Sheri S. Tepper

I was surprised to see, in the "Author's Note" for After Long
Silence, that Tepper is retired and has a grandchild. Her writing
seems quite youthful to me, which speaks quite well for her.

>King's Blood Four
>Necromancer's Nine
>Wizard's Eleven
>The Flight of Mavin Manyshaped
>The Song of Mavin Manyshaped
>(name escapes me) [The Search of Mavin Manyshaped. ..bill]
>Jinnian Footseer
>(Two other Jinnian books, ditto)

Dervish Daughter and Jinian Star-Eye. I had the Jinian books laying
around for several months because I refused to read them without
having first read the 'real' True Game trilogy, the ones with
numbers in the names.

Recent books from Tepper include Northshore, Southshore, and After
Long Silence (which is arguably her best to date). She's also
written a few horror novels.

>J.R.R. Tolkien
>All, especially the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy

Do not, however, read The Silmarillion of any of the Books of Lost
Tales unless you find you've become a serious, hardcore Tolkien fan.

>Raymond E. Feist
>   Magician: Apprentice
>   Magician: Master

In hardcover, it's just Magician. It was split into two volumes for
the paperback release.

>Faery Tale (forthcoming in January)

How can you recommend a book you've not read yet? I wouldn't even
recommend a McCaffrey book if I'd not read it first, and she is
definitely near the top of my list of favorite authors.

>I would also recommend the works of Piers Anthony, particulary The
>Incarnations of Immortality Series, the Xanth Series and The
>Apprentice Adept Series, but do not want to start another flame
>binge here - but these are great, none-the-less!

Les, Les, Les. What ARE we going to do with you? Actually, many
people call Anthony a hack writer. Who gives? As long as he's
entertaining, I don't. If you don't like him, don't read him; I'm
perfectly willing to waste a few hours with one of his novels,
though. Be warned, however, that it will be much easier on your
health if you wait a couple of weeks between Xanth novels. Research
has proven that old, bad puns do build up in the body..

Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 88 0927-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #2
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:

                   Administrivia - We Are Moving,
                   Television - Star Trek (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 10:00:10 EST
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Administrivia

   Well, as I threatened, er, promised last time I am back with the
first of several announcements.
   Sometime within the next few weeks, Rutgers will be
decommisioning RED.RUTGERS.EDU which for the last 4 years has been
the home of SF-LOVERS.  During the coming weeks, I will be moving
everything to a replacement system, as yet unidentified.
   Since the move involves not only a change of physical machines
but a change of operating systems as well, there is new software
that needs to be written and, more importantly, new mail problems to
face.  With any luck, you people out there won't notice anything
different except a new address in the headers and possibly a
slightly different digest format.  However, there may be periods of
delays, mail routing problems etc. Consider this a warning.
   I will be back later on in the month with more information as
things get more definite.
   Let me take a moment to remind everyone of the wonderful stuff in
the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers:

   T:<Sfl>
 Amber-Timeline.Txt.1                   8    19814
*Archive.V1                             860  2200759
*Archive.V2                             771  1972324
*Archive.V3                             741  1895294
*Archive.V4                             705  1803432
*Archive.V5                             323   824576
*Archive.V6                             705  1804515
*Archive.V7                             232   591802
*Archive.V8                             670  1713235
*Archive.V9                             1468 3756676
*Archive.V10                            3087 7901307
*Archive.V11                            2774 7098617
 Blake7.Guide.1                         5    10585(7)
 Down-In-Flames.Txt.1                   10   23119
 Drwho.Guide.1                          3    6789
 Galactica.Guide.1                      11   25925
 Hitch-Hikers-Guide-To-The-Net.Txt.1    36   90198
 Hugos.Txt.2                            6    14606
 Klingonaase.Txt.1                      3    6477
 Lost-In-Space.Guide.1                  17   41061
 Nebulas.Txt.4                          16   40386
 New-Twilight-Zone.Guide.1              22   55689
 Outerlimits.Guide.1                    7    16093
 Prisoner.Guide.2                       3    5796
 Sf-Lovers.Apr87a.1                     259  662176
          .Apr87b.1                     213  543399
          .Aug87.1                      84   213325
          .Feb87.1                      53   133125
          .Jan87.1                      259  661400
          .Jul87.1                      229  585323
         .Jun87.1                       130  331624
         .Jun87b.1                      196  499960
         .Mar87a.1                      233  595455
         .Mar87b.1                      228  583480
         .May87a.1                      261  666212
         .May87b.1                      182  463442
         .Nov87.1                       203  517569
         .Oct87a.1                      163  416157
         .Oct87b.1                      203  517538
         .Sep87a.1                      189  483551
         .Sep87b.1                      247  630241
 Star-Trek.Guide.1                      9    21405
 The-Enchanted-Duplicator.Txt.1         40   101058
 Twilight-Zone.Guide.1                  29   72906

   Files marked with an asterisk (*) are currently offline due to
space limitations.  If anyone wished these files they should contact
me. For those unfamiliar with Tenex/Tops-20, the first number is the
number of Tenex disk pages, the second is the number of characters
in the file, for checksumming purposes if you FTP the file.  All of
the online files are available via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP.
Please folks, if FTP is unavailable to you do not ask me to mail you
these files.  I cannot do it.
   a reminder to both new and old readers, all requests to be added
to or deleted from this list, problems, questions, etc., should be
sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.  Submissions for the digest are
to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.  If you use the wrong address for
the wrong purpose your message may get ignored.  Also, please keep
submissions to one topic.  That makes it a lot easier for me to work
with and it is easier for others to reply as well.

Saul

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 20:12:02 GMT
From: gabai@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu (Gabai)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG racism, bunch of crap!!

Not that I support or deny any comparison of Ferrengi to stereotypes
of Jewish businessmen, but the previous poster (paraphrased) - more
like The Merchant of Venice.

In case you're wondering: claims of racism exist there also.  Racism
has been around for many, many years:
  WWII, Jewish people in one half of the world, Japanese in the other,
  Western Hemisphere, since its discovery by the Eastern Hemisphere,
      has had its natives discriminated against,
  Africa, speaks for itself!,
  peasants in medieval Europe, Asia,
  Romans (or Greeks) had all others called second class citizens.

Racism is here, and has always been here!  SF writers just use it as
another plot device.

Just because you don't want to believe its there, doesn't mean it
will go away. Recognition, is the first step towards remedying the
situation.

I hope this didn't sound like a FLAMING session.  If it did, please
reread with a stronger sense of objectivity.  This was not to burn
anyone, just make you think for awhile.

Steven D. Gabai
gabai@nadc.arpa
gabai@paul.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 87  19:45 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: star trek / klingon females

Arnold Gill's info on Klingon females is exactly what I wonder about
when I ask what is "official" Star Trek and what is not.  But since
obviously some people out there are paying close attention to the
novels, can anyone remember the name of the novel in which Kirk
re-encounters Kang, minus Mara, and Kang states that she has died or
been killed?  I think it was in some way the fault of the
Federation; don't remember details.

thanks,
susan de guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 87 14:48:49 est
From: "oread::barbanis"@cs.umass.edu
Subject: Sexism in ST

I'd like to point out that the fact that Klingons have strange
mating habits or that Ferrengi keep their females back home and
naked, does not make ST sexist.  Yes, this is sexist behavior by
Earth standards, but should other species have the same standards?
Why should we assume that Ferrengi males and females are created
equal?  As a matter of fact, I could accept a race whose (fe)male
half is not even intelligent and is used only for breeding (let's
talk about the bees, for instance :-)) Now, the good starship
Enterprise has a male captain AND a male first officer.  *That's*
sexist, isn't it?  Let's fix that and then worry about other species
(prime directive, I guess :-))

George Barbanis
UMass - Amherst
barbanis@cs.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 87 16:24:58 GMT
From: dasys1!jzitt@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Zitt)
Subject: Re: Sexism in ST

"oread::barbanis"@cs.umass.EDU writes:
> I'd like to point out that the fact that Klingons have strange
> male first officer.  *That's* sexist, isn't it?  Let's fix that
> and then worry about other species (prime directive, I guess :-))

Remember, however, that in the original pilot, Majel Barret played
the first officer.

Joe Zitt
Big Electric Cat Public Unix
New York, NY, USA
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!jzitt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Dec 87 22:27:57 EDT
From: Stan Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #517

  This discussion regarding the Q being is most interesting.  While,
I feel the role of Q is played very convincingly, I do not like the
character, the actor is quite good.  Even though I do not like Q,
curiousity abounds and I hope to see more of the Q.
   One thing bothers me though.  It seems as if the Enterprise crew
is too often interfered with by superior beings.  Other than Q's
interference, it is growing rather tiresome.  A little less
interference by superior intellects is called for.

Stan Horwitz
V4039 at TEMPLEVM
Temple University
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 13:08:53 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Death and Taxes STTNG ****BIG NASTY SPOILERS***

******SPOILER WARNING******

In one of the later episodes this season, Tasha Yar dies.  The
reason for this is a decision by Denise Crosby to leave the series.
The show will, with her cooperation, take advantage of this fact to
let her go out...so to speak...with a bang.  I know no details of
the plot that will result in her death.

FACTS END...RUMOR BEGINS

Apparently, the reason for her leaving is a disagreement over
promises made when she was hired.  The story is she was promised
that she was going to be one of the principal characters with lots
to do.  It hasn't worked out that way, and she wants to move on.

RUMORS END...OPINION BEGINS

This is a not suprising fallout of the fact that STTNG has not
developed into an ensemble show as originally envisioned.  Major and
minor characters are developing (although everything has far from
shaken itself out yet).  Yar is not one of the characters that has
moved to the forefront.  I don't know if Denise Crosby has another
offer, I hope so.  The ground is littered with actors/actresses who
have left successful series to go nowhere (to be fair, there are
counterexamples).

BACK TO FACTS

By the way, counter to what has been written here by many people
(including me) shooting has not concluded on the first season.  They
are up to about episode 19 (give or take an episode, and I don't
know if that's the 19th hour episode, or the 19th of 26 delivered
hours (including Farpoint)).

Chew on that for a while.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 00:49:33 GMT
From: ut-emx!emp@RUTGERS.EDU (Omega.Mosley)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes STTNG ****BIG NASTY SPOILERS***

Rich, at a social function I attended the night of the 30th,
Denise's departure was discussed up until it was mentioned that the
source of the news was David Gerrold, and was from a Compuserve
posting.

It should be noted that many people who can afford
Rip-U-Offs...er..CI$ ...er..the unjustifiable charges and are ST
fans have begun taking a lot of David's comments about the show with
a grain (or is that box) of salt.  It was hoped that this was merely
Gerrold flapping his jaws in angst at the Paramount staffers, but
"seeing" it from your own fingers...

Well, let's hope this "big bang" farewell isn't like Adric's was in
"Earthshock".

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  3 Jan 88  01:29:58 EST
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (RG Traynor)
Subject: Klingon Females, and Ferrengi

First off, I don't know where Tim Maroney got the idea that Valkris
was Romulan; she was explicitly identified in the script, the
novelization and all Paramount publicity material as a Klingon spy.
I get the impression that most of Vonda McIntyre's background on her
was her own idea, and not in the script, but McIntyre was working
directly from the shooting script, and if Valkris had been Romulan
she would have been identified as such in the novelization.

As for this "The Ferrengi are anti-Semitic" business: I saw no
anti-Semitism.  Instead, I saw a trenchant and reasonably amusing
parody of typical American capitalists, constantly squalling about
profit and lack thereof to the exclusion of everything else.  It was
far more reminiscent of Yuppies working 80 hour weeks for money they
have no time to spend than of truly anti- Semitic works like *The
Jew Suess* or *The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.* If the Ferrengi
being money-grubbing little fellows with big ears makes them
anti-Semitic, then the current TV stereotype of the greedy, grasping
WASP businessman who will rape, kill, steal, and sell his children
into Algerian prostitution rings for profit is equally anti-Semitic.
No, it just won't wash, guys.  The Ferrengi are 19th century robber
barons, not the Rothschilds.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 12:40:20 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes STTNG ****BIG NASTY SPOILERS***

emp@ut-emx.UUCP (Omega.Mosley) writes:

>Rich, at a social function I attended the night of the 30th,
>Denise's departure was discussed up until it was mentioned that the
>source of the news was David Gerrold, and was from a Compuserve
>posting.

Well, that was one of the sources.  And from the same place, comes
the news that it was apparently (at least in part) a bargaining ploy
by Crosby.  Whatever, it worked and she has resigned (that's
re-signed, as in signed again) for a second season.  I don't take
DG's word as gospel, but there was enough other supporting
information that I felt it was worth passing along.  I have another
rumor (from a different source...although a good one) that I'm still
checking out.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 08:20:57 GMT
From: ut-emx!emp@RUTGERS.EDU (emp)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes STTNG ****BIG NASTY SPOILERS***

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>>Rich, at a social function I attended the night of the 30th,
>>Denise's departure was discussed up until it was mentioned that
>>the source of the news was David Gerrold, and was from a
>>Compuserve posting.
> Well, that was one of the sources.  And from the same place, comes
> the news that it was apparently (at least in part) a bargaining
> ploy by Crosby.  Whatever, it worked and she has resigned (that's
> re-signed, as in signed again) for a second season.  I don't take
> DG's word as gospel, but there was enough other supporting
> information that I felt it was worth passing along.  I have
> another rumor (from a different source...although a good one) that
> I'm still checking out.

To be frank, considering what we've been hearing about DG's info of
late, I will ONLY believe that she's leaving the show if A) I hear
her say it herself on a talk show, etc, or B) I see Yar bite it on
the toob with my own myoptic eyestalks!

As for what we've been hearing, well, try this mess on for size:

According to DG, DC Fontana left the show because Gene Roddenberry
was vetoing every script approval she sent to him for final OK, and
left following a very abrasive meeting with all the studio heads,
vowing never to have anything to do with Star Trek or Roddenberry
again.

Somehow, I REALLY find this hard to believe, knowing what a great
lady Dorothy Fontana is reputed to be. It just doesn't hold up to
the past record. It's these types of cruel rumours that are
attributed to DG as being the source, and all it seems to me is that
they are the result not of problems among the cast & crew, but
between *DG* and the cast and crew.  Again. according to rumours, DG
was on the verge of being tossed off the job less than 24 hours
before the "Trakkers" deal came through with Universal for "Sticking
his nose into areas that were not within his area of expertise, and
for promoting the influx of unsolicited scripts from unapproved
writers" (on the latter, the latest word was that DG was told he
could invite a few of his pro friends to submit scripts, and they
wound up getting over 7000 scripts, outlines, proposals, and
full-fledged shooting skeds! And on each one of them, there was
something attatched saying to the effect "DG sent me"...).

Anyway, DG is gone from the set, and most likely has no real ties
with the show any further than a casual word overheard at a party. I
would like to suggest that unless his info is verified by a separate
inside source, it should, again, be taken with a grain of salt... if
not the whole damn box!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 88 1004-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:

              Books - Fantasy Recommendations (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 15:01:54 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

>      I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer and
> now I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for their
> favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY stuff.  No
> sf please, only fantasy.

In addition to the books already mentioned, I very much recommend
Suzette Hayden Elgin's Ozark Stories:

Twelve Fair Kingdoms
The Grand Jubilee
[another one -- the name eludes me]
Yonder Comes the Other End of Time

They are about a planet, named Ozark, which was colonized by 12
large families from the Ozark mountains of Earth.  The Ozarkers were
disgusted by the way technology was corrupting the people of Earth,
and set off for another planet.  They didn't tell anyone where they
were once they got there, they avoid most technology, and, oh, yes,
magic works.

There's granny magic -- herbs and potions for when you're sick, and
there's higher magic.

I won't say more, since it'll be more fun to read the books than to
read this article, but they're highly enjoyable, very imaginative,
coherent, well-thought out, wonderful fantasy books.

Enjoy!

(P.S. Has anyone else out there read them?)

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 01:49:13 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>James P. Blaylock
  Boring!  BOOOOOOORRRRRRRRIINNGG! (IMHO, of course :-)
>Tim Powers
  Recommended.  Powers and Blaylock are good friends, but you
  couldn't tell from their writing styles.
>John Bellaires
>   The Face in the Frost
>   (anyone know if he's done anything else???)
  At least four or five juveniles, which, unfortunately, I haven't
  read.  I do recommend Face in the Frost, though.
>Anne McCaffrey
  Not fantasy.  Well, MOSTLY not fantasy.  I would recommend the
  Dragonsinger series for those with younger tastes, and would
  recommend the first book (Dragonquest) for anybody.  The rest are
  only o.k., nothing special.
>Christopher Stasheff
  The first couple of books in the series (Warlock In Spite of
  Himself, Warlock Unlocked) are pretty good, but the series gets
  pretty old after that - not much new in the later books.
>Sherri S. Tepper
  The True Games series is not fantasy, although it has many of the
  trappings of fantasy.  I recommend Tepper in general - I haven't
  read any of her books that weren't at least o.k., and some are
  superb.
>J.R.R. Tolkien
  Absolutely.  The source for much of the cheapo imitations found on
  every bookseller's shelves these days.  Better than all of them.
>Roger Zelazny
  I do second the recommendation.  The Amber books are kinda half
  science fiction, half fantasy, but very enjoyable anyhow.
>Raymond E. Feist
  Very derivative, but basically enjoyable.
>Joel Rosenberg
  No comment - I've got them, but haven't read them yet.  Seems,
  from the first few chapters, to be more D&D inspired fantasy, as
  was Feist's.
>L. Sprague DeCamp
  Enjoyable, but minor.
>Some other books:
>   Cudgels Saga, Cudgels Quest, The Eyes of the Overlord,
  Jack Vance.  That's "Cugel's", by the way.  Also, "The Dying
  Earth", for which "Eyes of the Overlord" is the sequel.  Vance is
  generally excellent.
>The Thieves' World Series (10 books so far, plus 7 or 8 spin offs)
  An idea which, to me, got boring about halfway through the first
  book, and which shows no sign of improvement so far.
>I would also recommend the works of Piers Anthony
  You would, I wouldn't.  I would discourage them highly, for many
  reasons.  For purposes of abetting flamage, I will be glad to go
  into this in more detail via email, but won't do so here.

I would add the following (amongst others):

Ursula LeGuin - The Earthsea trilogy
  Difficult and different, but excellent.

Emma Bull - War of the Oaks

Charles DeLint - Moonheart, Yarrow, Mulengro, others.
  Not earthshaking, but always very entertaining.

Steven Brust - Jhereg, Yendi, Tekla, and the superb Sun, Moon, and
Stars.

Peter Beagle - The Last Unicorn, Folk of the Air, A Fine and Private
Place.  Peter is one of the best. ALL of his books are good, some
are unequalled.

Patricia McKillip - The Riddlemaster of Hed trilogy

P.C. Hodgell - God Stalk and Dark of the Moon

John Crowley - Little, Big and Aegypt
  Little, Big is one of the milepost books in the fantasy genre for
  the last decade.  It's not an easy book, and you either love it or
  hate it, but it's worth checking out.  I think Aegypt is better,
  but even more difficult.

Richard Adams - Watership Down and Shardik
  These two are recommended.  I wouldn't recommend any of his others
  (save, perhaps, Plague Dogs, which I've gotten good reports on but
  haven't read), but these two are excellent.

Fritz Leiber - Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series
  In my opinion, easily the best of the Sword and Sorcery type of
  fantasy.

There are many, many more, but I've gone on long enough (and more!).

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 22:14:02 GMT
From: unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>>John Bellaires
>>   The Face in the Frost
>>   (anyone know if he's done anything else???)
>  At least four or five juveniles, which, unfortunately, I haven't
>  read.  I do recommend Face in the Frost, though.

St. Fidgeta and Other Parodies
The Pedant and the Shuffly

(Lewis Barnavelt, and Rose Rita Pottinger trilogy)
   The House With A Clock In Its Walls
   The Figure In The Shadows
   The Letter, the Witch, and the Ring
(The Anthony Monday, and Miss Eells du-ologu)
   The Treasure of Alpheus Witherborn
   The Dark Secret of Weatherend
(The Johnny Dixon series)
   The Curse of the Blue Figurine
   The Mummy, the Will, and the Crypt
   The Spell of the Sorcerer's Skull
   The Revenge of the Wizard's Ghost
   The EYES of the Killer Robot

The first two are labeled as adult (probably doesn't matter, as they
are almost impossible to find), all the others are juveniles. I can
recommend them all as a lot of fun, with some good shudders, and
spooky stuff. I would recommend "The House With A Clock In Its
Walls" as the best to start with.

Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88  9:59 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

>>      I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer and
>> now I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for
>> their favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY
>> stuff.  No sf please, only fantasy.

>Tolkien: The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings

If you haven't been told so already (which I find hard to believe),
this is the Bible of fantasy.

>Steven Brust: Jhereg and Friends, To Reign in Hell, Brokedown
>Palace

I have only read TRiH, and recommend it heartily.

>Chelsea Quinn Yarbro: A Flame In Byzantium (also any of the St.
>Germain books)

If you enjoy the St. Germain books, also try _Interview with the
Vampire_ and _The Vampire Lestat_ by Anne Rice.

The other series mentioned (Book of the New Sun, Amber etc.) are no
less than brilliant.

>I must disagree on the recommendation of the Thomas Covenant
>series.  Every other book on the list is one that I have either
>read and enjoyed or that has long been on my list of books to read.
>EXCEPT the Thomas Covenant books.  I made it halfway through the
>first one and threw it across the room in disgust.  NEVER have I
>seen such an unsympathetic protagonist.  The world was fascinating,
>Thomas was a whining, complaining, self-centered, a**hole.  I kept
>wishing he'd get knocked off so that the book could go on without
>him.  Sigh.

While I didn't throw the books across the room (they were borrowed;
sorry, Knut), I got pretty fed up with TC and his eternal muttering
of "Hellfire! Hellfire!". I don't mind the main character being an
a**hole, but he's got to be an *entertaining* a**hole !

Kai Quale
quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 18:31:01 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>I've been a fantasy fan for years, and my tastes in the genre have
>changed many times, but this is a list of my own favorites:

>James P. Blaylock
>   The Elfin Ship
>   The Disappearing Dwarf (These two are a set, hard to find but
>      Great!)
>   The digging Leviathan
>   Homunculus
>   The Land of Dreams

Note that Blaylock writes _very_light_ fantasy - almost dreamlike.
"The Elfin Ship" and the "Disappearing Dwarf" are both one-night
reads, but they stick with you a long while. "The Digging Leviathan"
is a strange little book with bizarre characters and weird
situations who revel in their strangeness.

>Christopher Stasheff
>   The Warlock Series...(up to 8 books now, I think)...with titles
>   like:
>      Warlock Unlocked
>      Warlock Enraged
>      Warlock In Spite of Himself
>      King Kobold Revisited
>      Etc.

Actually, this could be abbreviated to "The Warlock in Spite of
Himself, etc.", since most of the books share common themes and
events. The plotline moves a little bit from book to book, just
enough to get you wondering, "Well, can he do magic, or no?" I
haven't read all of them, so I don't know if they ever do resolve
that one. There's a prequel to all these called "Escape Velocity".

>Roger Zelazny
>   Changeling
>   Madwand
>   The Amber Series

Also try "Dilvish the Damned", a collection of short stories, and
"The Changing Lands", a novel-length sequel to the short stories.

>Some other books:
>   Cudgels Saga, Cudgels Quest, The Eyes of the Overlord, The
>   Thieves'

That's  Cugel's Saga, Cugel's Quest, and The Eyes of the Overworld

>World Series (10 books so far, plus 7 or 8 spinn offs), The MYTH
>series by Robert Asprin, Any of Diane Duane's books.

The first three books are classic fantasies by Jack Vance in the
"Dying Earth" series, which also include "The Dying Earth" and
"Rhialto the Marvelous". These are excellent books in a prose style
rarely seen these days. The Thieves' World series is edited by
Robert Asprin, and the early volumes were excellent. Around Vol. 5
or 6, the stories stopped exploring diversity in styles, characters,
and plots, but instead focused on one particular situation and a few
characters, completely destroying what I liked best about the
original books.

Pick up the MYTH Adventures graphic novel, by Asprin and Phil
Foglio. The books themselves aren't worth reading (predictable
plots, boring characters, thin humor, and a tedious writing style),
but the comic makes up for all those shortcomings.

>I would also recommend the works of Piers Anthony, particulary The
>Incarnations of Immortality Series, the Xanth Series and The
>Apprentice Adept Series, but do not want to start another flame
>binge here - but these are great, none-the-less!

What would the net be without flames?

The first book of the Incarnations of Immortality series, "On a Pale
Horse", is still the best of the lot - very original concept,
although executed in the standard Anthony juvenile style. The main
character in each book gets into a bad personal situation, replaces
a predecessor in the job, plays around with his/her new powers a
bit, then is forced into a confrontation with Satan which awakens
their full potential. The only differences are ones of detail -
there's also a meta-plot which moves slowly from book to book, a
device to tie the books together.

The Xanth series makes good light reading, if you can borrow the
books. I've never felt the urge to read any of those books twice,
although I've read them all (well, except for "Golem in the Gears")
once.

The "Adept" series is the best of the lot, esp. the first book.  The
fourth book, "Out of Phaze", is a complete loss. It starts a new
series which shows every indication of being just like the first
series.

These are just my opinions, natch.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 22:19:03 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>>Joel Rosenberg
>  No comment - I've got them, but haven't read them yet.  Seems,
>  from the first few chapters, to be more D&D inspired fantasy, as
>  was Feist's.

Yes, but by the end of the first book, he pretty much drops the
silly premise of "ordinary kids trapped in their gaming world." From
there on in, it is great sword-and-sorcery, with excellent
characters as well.

>>      Cudgels Saga, Cudgels Quest, The Eyes of the Overlord,
>  Jack Vance.  That's "Cugel's", by the way.  Also, "The Dying
>  Earth", for which "Eyes of the Overlord" is the sequel.  Vance
>  is generally excellent.

Thank you for correcting one error. But It's "Eyes of the
Overworld".  And what is "Cugel's Quest" ? As far as I know, and I
may be wrong, the Dying Earth series is:

The Dying Earth
The Eyes of the Overworld
Cugel's Saga
Rialto the Marvelous  (or was that "Rhialto" ?)

I doubt the existence of "Cugel's Quest", since Vance wrote the
first two, took a long hiatus, picked up "Cugel's Saga" exactly at
the end of "Eyes", and then went on with "Rialto". But title
confusion aside, they are very good, light, sometimes satirical
fantasy.

>Patricia McKillip - The Riddlemaster of Hed trilogy

These I did not like. This seems to be a case of the world being too
powerful for the story, causing the plot to mire in its own
intricacy.

>Fritz Leiber - Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series
>  In my opinion, easily the best of the Sword and Sorcery type of
>  fantasy.

Well, not *the* best, but among the best. Don't expect any epic
grandeur here, just read 'em and have fun.

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 23:01:21 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

Rather than a novel, I would recommend a comic: Elfquest.

Tim Smith
tim@ism780c.isc.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 03:06:06 GMT
From: glo@embos.stpaul.gov (Dave Glowacki)
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>>The Thieves' World Series (10 books so far, plus 7 or 8 spin offs)
>  An idea which, to me, got boring about halfway through the first
>  book, and which shows no sign of improvement so far.

A better execution of this idea (depending on how loose a definition
of fantasy you have) is the Wild Cards series, based in a world
where comic book-type superheros really exist.

A couple of my own picks and a couple of questions...

Katherine Kurtz's Deryni series (how IS that pronounced, anyway?),
especially if you are/were Catholic.

Barry Hurhart's Bridge of Birds.  About a quest in Ancient China,
made by Number Ten Ox and master Li Kao, a scholar with a slight
flaw in his character.  Funny stuff.  Has this guy written anything
else?

Dave Glowacki
daveg@embos.StPaul.GOV
...!amdahl!ems!pwcs!embos!daveg

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 88 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:

            Books - What Books are Must-Reads? (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 87 21:55:32 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Must-Reads?

What are the books that one must read if one is serious about
science fiction?  (Note: I'm going to be sloppy about using the term
to include fantasy.)  Not "what are the best science fiction
books?".  Not "how can you possibly call yourself a
science-fictionado if you haven't read X?".

Rather, what books (and perhaps stories) must one have read to be
able to discuss the genre intelligently?  to share the background
that a writer may be presupposing when s/he spoofs an earlier work?
to understand concepts that aren't explained because they've been
explained to death in earlier works?  to understand how various
kinds of writing within the field *evolved*?

No, wait!  Stop!  Don't send in a list!  Such a list would be very
long, and I'm not sure who would benefit.  What I'd like is help in
defining -- possibly by means of examples, in part -- what *kinds*
of books, if any, go onto such a list.

Some categories suggest themselves:

Major works -- This is the easiest.  One must have read the
Foundation trilogy because everyone else did.  And everyone else did
because it was well worth reading.

Major authors -- One can't, for example, be ignorant of Andre
Norton's work.  But is it necessary to have read all of it, or are
there particular ones one should have read, or is the appropriate
recommendation "Witch World and any five (ten) others"?

Works that *were* major -- Clifford Simak's "City" suggests itself.
I enjoyed it, but I don't think it would be publishable today.  It
had a major impact, though.

Early works -- These are important because they are the books that
the later *writers* grew up reading.  It is worth distinguishing
between earlier works which we still (or now) consider good and
works which were well-received at the time -- even if we now
consider them trash.  (A general comment about the latter category
is that it helps to have read them in one's early teens.)

Comments?  Suggestions?  *Is* there such a thing as the list I'm
asking about or is the notion incoherent?

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 87 23:13:42 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Must-Reads?

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>What are the books that one must read if one is serious about
>science fiction?  (Note: I'm going to be sloppy about using the
>term to include fantasy.)  Not "what are the best science fiction
>books?".  Not "how can you possibly call yourself a
>science-fictionado if you haven't read X?".
>
>Rather, what books (and perhaps stories) must one have read to be
>able to discuss the genre intelligently?  to share the background
>that a writer may be presupposing when s/he spoofs an earlier work?
>to understand concepts that aren't explained because they've been
>explained to death in earlier works?  to understand how various
>kinds of writing within the field *evolved*?

   This is a fun question.  Dani goes on to suggest several
categories, such as major authors, major works, and early formative
SF.  Another category which should be mentioned are books about
Science Fiction.  For example, there is Nicholl's Encyclopedia of
Science Fiction, which is a fairly comprehensive view of the field.
Advent press has a number of works.  There is, I believe, a book
which summarizes the 100 most important SF novels (although many
disagree with the listing.)

   For the last 35 years the Hugo and Nebula winners are a major
category.  The novels are mostly available, and the short fiction
has been collected in various "The Hugo winners" volumes.  The
various Best of 19xx volumes are also worth reading.  These works
represent collective opinions as to the best and most worthwhile SF
(the issue of the value of these collective opinions is an entirely
different matter).

   The pre Hugo period (The various golden ages of SF) is more
problematical.  The short fiction is covered by a number of really
good anthologies -- Adventures through Time and Space is number one
and is in print from time to time.  For longer works there are a
number of writers and works that fall into the must read category. A
partial list is:

Heinlein: The future history series, available in "The past through
tomorrow".  Heinlein invented the idea of a future history.

A.E. VanVogt: Slan, The Weapon Shops of Isher, The World of Null-A,
black destroyer.  These were immensely popular at the time, and are
still good reads.  Idiosyncratic pseudoscience.

Asimov:  Robots and Foundation stuff.

Poul Anderson:  Two future histories, endless buckled swashes.

Kuttner, Vance, Sturgeon, and Bradbury.  Kuttner's shorts have been
reprinted many times.  Vance's "The Dying Earth" is a jewel.
Sturgeon's "More Than Human" is a classic.  Bradbury's "The Martian
Chonronicles" and "The Illustrated Man" are must reads.

C.L. Moore: Lush space opera -- highly representative of the Planet
Stories school of writing.

E.E. Smith: The entire Lensman saga.  This was a blockbuster in its
time, was influential, and is referred to in other works quite
often.

Jack Williamson: The Humanoids -- one of the most ambiguous "happy"
endings in SF.

Olaf Stapledon: "The Starmaker" and "Odd John".  Stapledon was an
oddball British philosopher.  His work is quite influential among SF
writers.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 87 08:50:04 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Must-Reads?

Dani Zweig writes:
>Rather, what books (and perhaps stories) must one have read to be
>able to discuss the genre intelligently?  to share the background
>that a writer may be presupposing when s/he spoofs an earlier work?
>to understand concepts that aren't explained because they've been
>explained to death in earlier works?  to understand how various
>kinds of writing within the field *evolved*?

When I first read this article I thought that a very long list would
be the only answer.  After much more thought, I realized that there
were actually very few specific works which *everyone* should read.
What I suggest is that one must have read a lot of books (minimum
500, a couple thousand would be better) from many subgenres and
dating from the 1800's on.

Despite this, I think the idea is fun so I'll attempt it anyway.

>Major works -- This is the easiest.  One must have read the
>Foundation trilogy because everyone else did.

Besides the Foundation books, the only truly major works that I can
come up with are (in rough order of publication):

_Alice's Adventures in Wonderland_ and _Through the Looking-Glass_
   by Lewis Carroll
_Brave New World_ by Aldous Huxley
_The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ by Tolkein.
_1984_ by George Orwell
_Dune_ by Frank Herbert
_Stranger in a Strange Land_ by Robert Heinlein
_Ringworld_ by Larry Niven

I was tempted to put _Neuromancer_ in the above list, but I think
its too soon to decide that it is a major work.  In 10 or 20 years
we'll know.  Actually, I'm not 100% positive that the last three in
the list will still be considered "major" in another 20 years.

>Major authors -- One can't, for example, be ignorant of Andre
>Norton's work.

Besides Norton, I would put Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, Niven,
Herbert, Poul Anderson, Norman Spinrad, Robert Silverberg, John
Brunner, Anne McCaffrey, Clifford Simak, Jack Vance, Gordon Dickson,
Phillip K. Dick, Phillip Jose Farmer, Harlan Ellison, Frederick
Polh, Ray Bradbury, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Roger Zelazny and Samuel
Delany on the list.  There's probably a dozen others whose names
didn't occured to me.  [There's no special order to the above;
that's just the way they came to me.]

>Works that *were* major -- Clifford Simak's "City" suggests itself.
>I enjoyed it, but I don't think it would be publishable today.  It
>had a major impact, though.

Perhaps H.G. Wells and Jules Verne go here.  I have only read enough
of each to know that I don't like their writing styles.  Oh well, so
I have a few gaps in my sf background.

>Early works -- These are important because they are the books that
>the later *writers* grew up reading.  It is worth distinguishing
>between earlier works which we still (or now) consider good and
>works which were well-received at the time -- even if we now
>consider them trash.  (A general comment about the latter category
>is that it helps to have read them in one's early teens.)

Almost anything by "Doc" E. E. Smith but especially _Galactic Patrol_.

My selections above are slanted towards science fiction rather than
fantasy.  But then, so am I.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 87 02:15:46 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Must-Reads?

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>What are the books that one must read if one is serious about
>science fiction?  (Note: I'm going to be sloppy about using the
>term to include fantasy.)  Not "what are the best science fiction
>books?".  Not "how can you possibly call yourself a
>science-fictionado if you haven't read X?".
>
>Rather, what books (and perhaps stories) must one have read to be
>able to discuss the genre intelligently?  to share the background
>that a writer may be presupposing when s/he spoofs an earlier work?
>to understand concepts that aren't explained because they've been
>explained to death in earlier works?  to understand how various
>kinds of writing within the field *evolved*?

First, I'll put my vote in for the concept being incoherent.

    I would argue that there is no single book that a person "must"
read in order to consider him/herself a science fiction afficionado,
to be able to discuss the genre intelligently, to write science
fiction, or to understand the concepts common in science fiction.
In particular, I take offense at the attitude that prompts the often
heard comment, "how can you consider yourself a fan of field X if
you haven't experienced work Y?"  I also don't think one could make
a list of five works of science fiction, such that someone who
hasn't read ANY of the five would be necessarily discounted from any
of the above categories.  I'll limit my discussion to science
fiction, but of course this is a much more general concept.
    I think it's true that there are certain works that can be
considered more important, and it's also true that there is some
volume of work that, within the science fiction community, is "must
reading," at least in the sense that it is safe to assume that most
other people have read most of it.  But to suggest that there are
certain untouchables, without which one cannot be considered a
science fiction afficionado, seems to me both pretentious and narrow
minded.  Of course it can't be taken to the extreme - one would have
a weak claim to SF fandom having read only two or three books in the
genre.  But it wouldn't be right to put a number on such a thing
either.  While it is nice that there is a certain body of work that
is common to a large percentage of SF fans (meaning that for a given
work in the body, a large percentage of the people have read it, not
that there is a large percentage of people who have read the entire
body), this is what defines the genre, not what defines its
followers.  Probably no two individuals have read exactly the same
works, even if you were to only check among these so-called
"must-reads."
    Certainly it's true that there are plenty of references to
earlier work in modern science fiction, including both those
intended by the author, and those that have become a part of the
genre.  But this is true of everything - nothing is written in a
vacuum.  While it is nice to be able to recognize something in a
text that is derived from earlier work, I would think that the worst
you can say about someone who misses the reference is that they are
on the wrong side of an in-joke.  Not that they are in any way a
lesser science fiction afficionado.  If someone happens to like a
book that is a poor imitation of H.G. Wells' The Time Machine, it is
wrong to blame them for their lack of background - rather, the
enjoyment of the more recent book by the true afficionado has been
lessened by their having read a stunningly superior book previously.
And the person not having read it is just that much more lacking in
enjoyment.
    Suppose a list were composed, and suppose the requirements were
made extremely tight, so that only thirty novels, and thirty shorter
works were on it.  I would guess that an extremely small number of
the people who currently read and write science fiction would be
able to say that they have read all of them.
    Of course, to intelligently discuss certain things, one must
have a certain background.  But everyone's background is different,
and everyone's experience in reading every book they read is
different from everyone else's.  It's often valuable to compare
notes, to find the common aspects - but to put too high a value on
them is in my opinion wrong.  Of course, I have no emprical data to
support this, but I would guess that if a list of one hundred works
were generated as must-reads (and judging from some of the responses
so far, I suspect it would take at least this many to get any
agreement), fewer than ten percent of SF conventioners would be able
to honestly say they had read them all.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 19:14:38 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: Must-Reads?

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>What are the books that one must read if one is serious about
>science fiction?
>
>Some categories suggest themselves:
>Major works -- This is the easiest.  One must have read the
>Foundation trilogy because everyone else did.  And everyone else
>did because it was well worth reading.

I read it many years ago and thought it a D+ effort.  Not on my
list.

>Major authors -- One can't, for example, be ignorant of Andre
>Norton's work.

I have never read any of her novels.

>Works that *were* major -- Clifford Simak's "City" suggests itself.

Nor have I read any of the "City" stories.

I'm not trying to pick on these authors, but rather suggest that the
field is so wide that one can grow into it and have an opinion, if I
may be so bold, educated to Harlan Ellison's satisfaction without
wading through many of the classics.  On the other hand, there may
be non-SF books that are at least very helpful adjuncts to
understanding science fiction.  "Science and Sanity" comes to mind.

It's even hard to nail down what should be discussed in "serious"
talk about speculative fiction.  Between Stapledon's fiction and the
New Wave in the sixties there was not a lot of experimentation in
the form of fiction itself; the stories were admirably
straightforward and hinged on imaginative problems and resolutions.
One could build a course on the history of the hard-science story,
from Eric Frank Russell to Hal Clement to Larry Niven.  Or one could
discuss social SF from H.G. Wells to Alfred Bester to Theodore
Sturgeon to Ursula Le Guin.  And so on.

How about: how did we get here from there?  Which works have been,
in retrospect, the trailblazers that opened up a new vein to be
mined by subsequent writers?  "Lord of the Rings", of course;
"Starship Troopers", probably, "Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser" stories;
the "Elric" novels, the "Lensmen" novels, and so on.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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Date:  6 Jan 88 1024-EST
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:

             Books - Fantasy Recommendations (3 msgs) &
                     Upcoming Books & Story Request &
                     Answers (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 02:13:00 GMT
From: ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

Great fantasy = the first two books of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast
trilogy, *Titus Groan* and *Gormenghast*. (The third book, *Titus
Alone*, is also good but Peake died while writing it and it also
turns into science fiction.) The first few pages may put you off at
first but once you get going it's great. You can tell Peake worked
as an illustrator; his writing is full of wonderful imagery. It's
almost like watching a movie instead of reading a book.

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat
wombat@gswd-vms.Gould.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 00:51:40 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

   Add to all the other lists Glen Cook's fantasies, but with a
note.  Glen's books tend to be very down to earth stories, usually
with a military bend.  His characterization is excellent though.
Both the Dread Empire and the Black Company books are high on my
list of books, and his recent "Sweet Silver Blues" is a fun book
too.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 22:40:20 GMT
From: mtgzz!eme@RUTGERS.EDU (XMRP20000[khw]-e.m.eades)
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

glo@embos.StPaul.GOV (Dave Glowacki) writes:
>farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>>cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
[other recomemded reads]
>>>The Thieves' World Series (10 books so far, plus 7 or 8 spin offs)
>>  An idea which, to me, got boring about halfway through the first
>>  book, and which shows no sign of improvement so far.
> A better execution of this idea (depending on how loose a
> definition of fantasy you have) is the Wild Cards series, based in
> a world where comic book-type superheros really exist.

Actually I thought that _Wild Cards_ was very mediocre.  If it
hadn't been a sf club discussion book I'd never have finished it.  I
thought the first 2 (or maybe 3) of the Thieve's world series were
good but they started getting excessively morbid and gruesome after
that.  The series I would recommend is the Liavek series (only 2 out
so far).  It has a lot of the flavor of the thieves' world series
without the depression.

Beth Eades

------------------------------

Subject: new books on the horizon
From: jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan Faidley)
Date: 30 Dec 87 15:10:46 GMT

First off let me begin by apologizing for any spelling or titling
mistakes I might have made when I wrote that suggested list for
fantasy books.  With a list that long it is easy to make mistakes
and I am sorry if I confused anybody out there.  So right off let me
apologize for any mistakes that I make in the following list below.

I got the December issue of Locus and included (possibly every
month, I don't usually get the magazine) was a list of upcoming
books for the next few months and I thought I'd post the interesting
ones to let you all know what to expect.  There are some good ones
coming out as well as some bad ones.  I will list them by publisher
since that is how they are listed in Locus.  They will all be
paperbacks unless listed otherwise (hc for hardcover and tr for
trade paperback).  Sit back and weep people for the amount of money
you will have to spend in the next 5 months alone!  Oh boy!  Here we
go!!!!

                                ACE

January:

M.Y.T.H. Inc. Link by Robert Asprin
Dayworld Rebel by Philip Jose Farmer
Asimov's Robot City #4:Prodigy by Arthur Byron
The Asutra by Jack Vance
The World Wreckers by Marion Zimmer Bradley

February:

Maori by Alan Dean Foster
Greymantle by Charles de Lint
The Serpent's Egg by Caroline Stevermer

March:

Asimov's Robot City #5:Refuge by Ron Chilson
Taltos by Steven Brust
Castle Perilous by John DeChancie
Ten Little Wizards by Michael Kurland

April:

Out of Phaze by Piers Anthony
Dagger by David Drake
The Omega Cage by Steve Perry and Michael Reaves
Remscela by Gregory Frost
Eye of the Sun by Mike Conner

May:

Riders of the Wind by Jack Chalker (A sequel to Where the Change
Winds Blow?)
The Fleet by David Drake and Bill Fawcett
Final Circuit by Melinda Snodgrass

June:

To Sail Beyond the Sunset by Robert Heinlein
Barbary by Vonda McIntyre
Asimov's Robot City #6:Perihelion by William F.Wu
The Sorcerer's Heir by Paula Volsky
Realm of the Gods by Catherine Cooke
Colors of Chaos by Robert Vardeman
Stormwarden by Janny Wurts

                                ACE/PUTMAN

January:

The Ascension Factor by Frank Herbert and Bill Ransom (hc)

                                AVON

January:

Sea of Galss by Barry Longyear
Crystal Sword by Adrienne Martine-Barnes
Cryptozoic! by Brain Aldiss

February:

The Legacy of Lehr by Katherine Kurtz
The Blind Archer by John Gregory Betancourt

March:

Brightsuit MacBear by L. Neil Smith
The Shadow of His Wings by Bruce Fergusson
All Flesh is Grass by Clifford D. Simak
Trillion Year Spree by Brain Aldiss (tr)

April:

Wetware by Rudy Rucker
Denner's Wreck by Lawrence Watt-Evans
The Hunger by Whitley Strieber

May:

Xorandor by Christine Brooke-Rose
Nightreaver by Michael Weaver
They Walked Like Men by Clifford D. Simak

                                BAEN

January:

David's Sling by Marc Stiegler
Sideshow by W.R. Thompson

February:

Cobra Bargain by Timothy Zahn
The General's President by John Dalmas
Orphan of Creation by Roger MacBride Allen

March:

The Hex Witch of Seldom by Nancy Springer (hc)
After the Fact by Fred Saberhagen
Between the Stars by Eric Kotani and Phillip Jennings

April:

Falling Free by Lois McMaster Bujold
Planet of the Dead by Donald Wismer
Three Corners to Nowhere by Martin Caidin

May:

The Ragged Astronauts by Bob Shaw
Speaker to Heaven by Atanielle Annyn Noel
Manfac by Martin Caidin

June:

Things Hunting Man by David Drake
Demon of Undoing by Andrea Alton
Killers by David Drake and Karl Wagner

                        BALLANTINE DEL REY

January:

The Folk of the Air by Peter S Beagle  (available now)
Noninterferince by Harry Turtledove
Their Mster's War by Mick Farren

February:

Willow by Wayland Drew (novelization of Lucas and Howard film)
Masks of the Martyrs by Jack Chalker
Agent of Change by Steve Miller and Sharon Lee

March:

Narabedla by Frederick Pohl (hc)
Guardians of the West by David Eddings
The Vang by Christopher Rowley
Yaril's Children by Marcia J. Bennett
Tesseact by Joseph Addison
Shadow Singer by Marcia J. Bennett

April:

King of the Murgos by David Eddings (hc) (book two, ya!)
The Smoke Ring by Larry Niven
Fleet of the Damned by Allan Cole and Chris Bunch
Sight of Proteus by Charles Sheffield
The Silicon Mage by Barbara Hambly

May:

The Annals of the Heechee by Frederick Pohl
The Reluctant Swordsman by Dave Duncan
Four Hundred Billion Stars by Paul McAuley

June:

Highway to Eternity by Clifford Simak
Riddel of the Seven Realms by Lyndon Hardy
Conflict of Honors by Steve Miller and Sharon Lee


                        BANTAM SPECTRA

January:

Forging the Darksword by Weis and Kickman (new trilogy from
Dragonlance authors)
When Gravity Falls by George Alec
Memory Wire by Robert Charles Wilson

February:

A Truce With Time by Parke Godwin  (hc)
Desolation Road by Ian MacDonald
True Jaguar by Warren Norwood

March:

The Center of the Circle by Jonathan Wylie
Marlborough Street by Richard Bowker
The Breeds of Man by F.M. Busby

April:

Cherlnobyl by Frederick Pohl
Neon Lotus by Marc Laidlaw
Armageddon Blues by Daniel Keys Moran

May:

Doom of the Darksword by Wies and Hickman (#2 of Darksword trilogy)
Lincoln's Dream by Connie Willis
Runors of Spring by Richard Grant
Brother to the Lion by Rose Estes

June:

Daughter of the Empire by Raymind Feist and Janny Wurts
Wild Cards IV:Aces Abroad edited by George R.R. Martin
Shrine of the Desrt Mage by Stephen Golden
Minds, Machines and Evolution by James P. Hogan

                                DAW

January:

Exile's Gate by C.J. Cherryh (final novel of Morgaine, out now)
Arrow's Fall by Mercedes Lackey

February:

A Pride of Princes by Jennifer Roberson
Callipygia by Lin Carter

March:

The Warrior Victorious by Sharon Green
Mind Hopper by James Johnson

April:

The White Serpent by Tanith Lee
Warlord of Antares by Dray Prescot

May:

Blue Magic by Jo Clayton
Merovingen Nights #3: Troubled Waters edited by C.J. Cherryh
Child of the Grove by Tanya Huff

June:

Magicians of Gor by John Norman
The Name of the Sun by B.W. Clough

                                DOUBLEDAY

January:

The Bones of the Wizard by Alan Ryan (hc)

March:

Faerie Tale by Raymond Feist (hc)

April:

Rabelaisian Reprise by Jayge Carr (hc)
Death Chant by Craig Strete (hc)

                        DOUBLEDAY FOUNDATION

May:

Prelude to Foundation by Isaac Asimov (hc)  (YAY!YAY!YAY!YAY!YAY!)
Waiting for the Galactic Bus by Parke Godwin (hc)

June:

Paradox Planet by Stephen Spruill (hc)

                                POCKET


January:

Star Trek: Fianl Frontier by Diane Carey    (available now)

February:

Star Trek #38: The IDIC Epidemic by Jean Lorrah

April:

Star Trek #39: Time for Yesterday by A.C. Crispin (sequal to
Yesterdays Son, YAY)

June:

Star Trek #40: Timetrap by David Dvorkin

                        POPULAR LIBRARY QUESTAR

January:

The Starwolves by Thorarinn Gunnarson
Bright and Shining Tiger by Claudia Edwards

February:

Fool's Run by Patricia A. McKillip
Ghoster by Dixie Lee McKeone

March:

The Questing Hero by Hugh Cook
The Leeshore by Robert Reed

April:

Star of Gypsies by Robert Silverberg
The Fortress and the Fire by Michael Jan Friedmann

May:

Eclipse Penumbra by John Shirley
Queensblade by Susan Shwartz

June:

Dawn by Octavia Butler
Goblin Market by Richard Bowes

                                TOR

January:

Red Prophet:The Tales of Alvin Maker II by Orson Scott Card (hc)
(out now)
The Atheling by Grace Chetwin (hc)
The Gaunlet of Malice by Deborah Turner Harris (tr)
The Winds of Altar by Ben Bova
The First Book of Lost Swords: Woundhealer's Story by Fred Saberhagen
In Alien Flesh by Gregory Benford

February:

Araminta Station by Jack Vance (hc)
The Gold Coast by Kim Stanley Robinson (hc)
Starfire by Paul Preuss (hc)
Fortress by David Drake
Inner Eclipse by Richard Paul Russo
Guilded Tour by Gordon Dickson
Hart's Hope by Orson Scott Card

March:

Vengeance of Orion by Ben Bova (hc)
Voice of the Whirlwind by Walter JOn Williams
In Endless Twilight by L.E. Modesitt

April:

Seventh Son by Orson Scott Card
The Awakeners 1: Northshore by Sheri S Tepper
The Rapture Effect by Jeffery Carver

May:

Keepers of Edenvant by Carole Nelson Douglas
Tweedlioop by Stanley Schmidt
Key of Ice and Steel by Robert Vardeman and Danial Moran
The Awakwners 2: Southshore by Sheri S Tepper
Final Planet by Andrew Greeley

June:

The Forge of God by Gerg Bear
Mirage by Louise Cooper
The Sea Star by Diana L. Paxson
Starcrossed by Ben Bova
The Buring Stone by Deborah Turner Harris

I left out anthologies and books that are being reprinted (unless
it's their first time in paperback).  Not being familiar with every
book put out some might have slipped through.  As you can see it
will be quite a good and expensive six months with such books as:
   Prelude to Foundation
   King of the Murgos
   Red Prophet
   The Ascension Factor
   Hart's Hope
   Narabedla
   Exile's Gate
   Faerie Tale
   Time for Yesterday
   Vengeance of Orion

That's all for now.  Hope this doesn't leave you too exasperated but
yet aglow with joy for months to come. Bye!!

juan

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 23:00:23 GMT
From: ateng!chip@RUTGERS.EDU (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Help!  Who wrote "Time Patrol?"

About four years ago, I read a two (three?) books about a "Time
Patrol".  They have technology culled from several eras, and they
speak a language called "Temporal".

Who wrote it?  Help!

Chip Salzenberg
A T Engineering
UUCP: {codas,uunet}!ateng!chip

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 19:26:49 GMT
From: loral!dml@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: Help!  Who wrote "Time Patrol?"

chip@ateng.UUCP (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>About four years ago, I read a two (three?) books about a "Time
>Patrol".  They have technology culled from several eras, and they
>speak a language called "Temporal".
>
>Who wrote it?  Help!

  This may not be the one you're looking for, but Michael McCollum
wrote three stories which were later consolidated into a novel
called "A Greater Infinity".  The first story was called "Beer Run",
and introduced the Taladorans and their enemies the Dalgiri. The
Taladorans' language was called Temporal Basic. Very good.

  I've seen, but not read, a book called "Time Patrol" by Poul
Anderson.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 04:41:16 GMT
From: uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Help!  Who wrote "Time Patrol?"

chip@ateng.UUCP (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>About four years ago, I read a two (three?) books about a "Time
>Patrol".  They have technology culled from several eras, and they
>speak a language called "Temporal".

The series was by Poul Anderson.  As far as I know, all the Time
Patrol stories can be found in the two volumes _The Guardians of
Time_ and _Time Patrolman_.  _The Guardians of Time_ contains these
short stories:
   "Time Patrol"
   "Brave to Be A King"
   "Gibraltar Falls"
   "The Only Game in Town"
   "Delenda Est"
_Time Patrolman_ contains the stories "Ivory, and Apes, and
Peacocks" and "The Sorrow of Odin the Goth".

Richard Todd
820 Annie Court
Norman OK 73069
{allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 17:48:11 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Help!  Who wrote "Time Patrol?"

chip@ateng.UUCP (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>About four years ago, I read a two (three?) books about a "Time
>Patrol".  They have technology culled from several eras, and they
>speak a language called "Temporal".
>
>Who wrote it?  Help!

About ten years ago I read a collection of stories by Poul Anderson
that (speak memory!  well then, mumble!) seems to fit your
description.  Probably out of print now (Anderson has ground out
more SF than the book industry can hope to keep continuously
available).  The time patrolmen were recruited from various eras by
advanced humans from the far future.  I completely forget what the
Time Patrol *did*.

I'll lay odds that at least a baker's dozen of significant SF
writers have invented a "Time Patrol" at one time (snicker) or
another.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jan 88 1039-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 6 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:

            Television - Max Headroom & Questor Tapes &
                         Starlost & TransFormers &
                         The Immortal & Captain Video &
                         Jonny Quest (2 msgs) &
                         Gerry Anderson &
                         Paul Darrow (3 msgs) & Blake's 7

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 87 16:19:14 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: MAX HEADROOM

From:   Kai Quale       <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
> From what I have heard, the episodes made by the original
> inventors of Max are the only ones worth seeing.
>
> Can anyone tell me how to tell whether the episodes featured in
> Norway are the "good" ones or the "bad" ones ? (E.g. a date : When
> did the inventors get kicked out of the show ? "All episodes made
> after date X are crap").

You are definitely under a mistaken impression, Kai. Depending on
exactly who you think the original "inventors" of Max Headroom are,
none of them were "kicked off" the show.

Peter Wagg, who was Producer on the original British Max film, MAX
HEADROOM: 20 MINUTES INTO THE FUTURE, served as Executive Producer
for the entire run of American MH episodes. Steve Roberts, who wrote
the original film, served as Executive Story Editor for the first
season of the American show and was Co-Producer for the second
season. Of the eleven episodes seen in the US, seven of them were
either written (three) or co-written (four) by Roberts.

The fact is that the second group of MAX episodes were no worse on
the whole than the first group. People reacted to the news of the
network wanting to make MAX "less complicated" by making a blanket
condemnation of the second season. Just like with the first six, the
second group had some good, some bad, some average.

From:   Barth Richards  (barth@ihlpl.att.com)

> The problem is that the first few episodes were *re*made by an
> American production company for broadcast on ABC...As I understand
> it, the first ABC run of six shows (winter/spring of 1987) were
> all reworkings of episodes already done by the British. The second
> run (fall 1987) were stories newly developed by the American
> producers.

You don't understand correctly. There *is* no British MAX HEADROOM
show comparable to the American. There was one "origin" film, which
was indeed rewritten (by the original writer, with the help of one
other person) as the first American episode. All of the other US
episodes were original scripts from the American production company.

The British series as such was a "talk show", with Max interviewing
various celebrities. This show was broadcast in the US on the pay
movie channel Cinemax. A new group of episodes of this "Original Max
Talking Headroom Show" was made this year for Cinemax, though this
time, it was produced in the New York. I assume it was done so
because it was easier than flying Matt Frewer to England to film it.

From:   andrew.cmu.edu!dl2p+@PT.CS.CMU.EDU
> how many episodes were there?

Eleven all together. Six in the first season, five in the second.
From what I've heard, one other episode was filmed, editted, and
ready for broadcast; two more were filmed, but not yet through
post-production; and they were in the middle of filming one more
when the cancellation order came.

   "And if the rating system lasts for a
   thousand years, men will still say this
   was Max Headroom's finest hour."
      Max's farewell speech

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 11:56:22 GMT
From: drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: _Questor_Tapes_

I wrote:
>Other Questor trivia:
>The original script called for Questor to get vital information at
>one point by making love to Dana Winter.

Checked this weekend; it's Dana *Wynter*, okay, okay...

>Robert Foxworth went on to play the Frankenstein monster in another
>made-for-TV movie.

Before everyone starts pointing out that Michael Sarrazin was the
actor who played the monster in 1973's *Frankenstein: The True
Story*, let me hasten to note that I'm referring to a different TV
special, one I can't find in my usual movie book.  However, I think
I was wrong about Robert Foxworth's playing the monster; seems to me
now that he played Dr.  Frankenstein, and some large, relatively
unknown actor had the monster's role.  The special was unmemorable
in most respects; the only thing other than Foxworth that strikes me
as noteworthy is that in this version the blind person befriended by
the monster was a young woman rather than an old man.  Anyone have
additional info?

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
{rutgers!ll-xn}!drilex!carols

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 20:00:58 GMT
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Subject: Re: _Starlost_ movie broadcast

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>a broadcast of a _Starlost_ movie. That's right, a movie.

Well, if you call pasting together the two shows that originally
made up a two-part series episode a movie then yes, it is a movie.
Your surprise at the movie's existence implies that you think it is
something other than the series, which it is not.  WPIX shows a
bunch of these periodically.

>Unfortunately, my guide does not give playing times, so I have no
>idea how long it is. Check your own guides to confirm this.

Two hours ("coincidentally" twice the length of the original shows).

Barry Margolin
Thinking Machines Corp.
barmar@think.com
seismo!think!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 05:43:01 GMT
From: bucsb!sabre@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Alfred Burns)
Subject: Re: Re  CARTOONS

Sorry, I have to push my own guilty pleasure onto this topic: I am a
Transformers junkie.  (Actually, it's TransFormers, but that is just
too d*mn weird.)

   I will admit first off, the televised animation is only so-so,
and there have been some really weak episodes ("The Autobots go
Hollywood" and "A Decepticon Warrior in King Arthur's Court" leap to
mind) but beyond them is a really strong Sci Fi base-- an internal
mythology which builds and grows.  It began with the mini-series and
the (various) episodes featuring Alpha Trion, Omega Supreme, and the
assumption of leadership of Optimus Prime.  Then the movie came out
and BLEW ME AWAY!!!!!!  Talk about serious sci fi, with serious
ambition--Autobots dying, leaders falling, and Orson Wells and
Lenard Nimoy as the bad guys (not to mention Judd Nelson and Robert
Stack and Eric Idle as the good guys :-).  The movie animation was
also incredibly good, and the soundtrack (though weak in areas)
drives you wild.

   I realise most people place the Transformers at best with "kid's
stuff" and at worst as "insidious half-hour commercials."  Well, I
for one wish all commercials were done as well as this show, and I
wish people would give it a chance (although, if you are beginning,
rent the realised episodes (done by FHE) as they give a reasonably
good background, and then go to the movie.

Eric Alfred Burns

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 18:16:00 GMT
From: hshiffma@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Hank Shiffman)
Subject: The Immortal

jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>There was another show whose name I can't remember. The hero had
>something in his blood that made him immortal. All the powerful
>people in the world were out to dissect him.

The series, which lasted a single season was called (curiously
enough) The Immortal and starred Christopher George.  It was based
upon a wonderful book (not a novel, but a collection of connected
stories) called The Immortals by James Gunn.

The series lost most of the atmosphere of the book.  I seem to
remember James Gunn doing an article for TV Guide about how they
lost everything good in the adaptation to television, turning his
work into Run For Your Blood.  (For anyone who isn't old enough to
remember Ben Gazzara in Run For Your Life, that's a joke.  RFYL
concerned a man with a fatal illness who is determined to get the
most out of the time he has left.  The parallels between the two
series are clear, although RFYL was a far better effort.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 87 14:36 MST
From: Roger Mann <RMann@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

Jerry, I remember Captain Video.  There are now two people in the
SF-Lovers universe that remember this show.  My favorite character
was the evil Dr.  Pauley(sp?)  who went around with his evil laugh
heh-heh-heh.  I guess most of the people who would remember capt.
video are no longer sf addicts since they have grown up and now live
in Mundania.  Sad.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 87 16:14:13 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Jonny Quest

From:   felix!billw     (Bill Weinberger)
> the voice of Jonny Quest in the original series was Tim Matheison
> (yes, that Tim Matheison)

Ah, "that" Tim Matheison? Who that? Are you perhaps referring to
actor Tim Matheson, who starred in, among other things, ANIMAL
HOUSE. If so, unless someone somewhere is misspelling either
"Matheison" or "Matheson", or he changed the spelling of his name,
they aren't the same person.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 17:18:56 GMT
From: felix!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: Re: Jonny Quest

I wrote:
>> the voice of Jonny Quest in the original series was Tim Matheison
>> (yes, that Tim Matheison)

To which Jerry Boyajian replied:

>Ah, "that" Tim Matheison? ... Are you perhaps referring to actor
>Tim Matheson, who starred in, among other things, ANIMAL HOUSE. If
>so, unless someone somewhere is misspelling either "Matheison" or
>"Matheson", or he changed the spelling of his name, they aren't the
>same person.

He has apparently changed the spelling of his last name.  In the
credits for Jonny Quest the voice of Jonny is definitely attributed
to "Tim Matheison".  However, in an interview with Doug Wildey,
creator and producer of the original cartoon series, the interviewer
asks about

Q: "Tim Matheson, who...had a featured role in Animal House".
A: "He was... and still is a very good actor."
Q: "How old was he when he did the voice of Jonny Quest?"
A: "It's debatable.  He looked like he was thirteen.  I'm not sure,
    but he had to be sixteen, I think, because he was driving a car,
    but he didn't look sixteen."

Since, JQ was first broadcast about 20 years ago, that would make
Tim 35-ish, which seems about right.

Bill Weinberger
FileNet Corporation
{decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !trwrb!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 88 10:19:13 GMT
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Sting Ray & Troy Tempest

There was a documentary program broadcast here in the UK over xmas
about Gerry Anderson and the various TV SF series he has been
involved with.  In the documentary it was pointed out that Troy
Tempest was modelled on the young James Garner(of "Rockford Files"
and many other films and programs fame).

Does anyone recognise other puppets which which have been modelled
on real actors?

Geoff Lane
UMRCC

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 00:14:10 GMT
From: njd@ihlpm.att.com (DiMasi)
Subject: Re: Re: How evil is Avon?        m!

>Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>>ecorley@dasys1.UUCP (Eric Corley) writes:
>>The only reason I every watch these low-budge BBC SF shows is the
>>acting.  The science fiction is sometimes interesting, but usually
>>one gets the impression that the writers learned *all* their
>>science by reading each others scripts!  Anyway, Darrow is my all
>>time favorite.  Do you think if we started a letter-writing
>>campaign, we could get him to do Dr. Who?
>
> Yeah!  We have but to try!  The acting in the above-mentioned
> shows is superb (usually) even if the special effects are palpably
> low-budget and the story-lines leave a little to be desired.

We have already succeeded!  In the past, that is (how appropriate
for a series about (a) Time Lord(s), eh?).  Paul Darrow appeared in
at least one Dr. Who episode.  I wish I had a program guide with me,
or I could give the name of this episode.  In any case, it is one of
(the first of?) the episodes about the Silurians/Sea Devils (the two
races are closely related, almost identical; this comes out in
another S/SD episode).  Someone else, please supply the episode
name, and save me from searching for it...

Thanks, and you're welcome.

Nick DiMasi

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 18:28:08 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Paul Darrow for Doctor

njd@ihlpm.ATT.COM (DiMasi) writes:
>Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>>Anyway, Darrow is my all time favorite.  Do you think if we
>>started a letter-writing campaign, we could get him to do Dr. Who?
>
>We have already succeeded!  In the past, that is (how appropriate
>for a serie about (a) Time Lord(s), eh?).  Paul Darrow appeared in
>at least one Dr. Who episode.  I wish I had a program guide with
>me, or I could give the name of this episode....

I expressed myself unclearly.  When I said "do Dr. Who," I didn't
mean act on the show; every Brit actor alive has done that.  I mean
*play* Dr. Who.  After all those schoolboy types, it would have been
refreshing to have a Doctor with a little moral ambiguity.
Actually, I ventured that opinion before I saw "Trial of a Time
Lord," which renders that sort of idea obsolete.

(Blake's 7 SPOILER from final season follows.)

Still, maybe we're not done with Darrow yet.  There will probably be
B's 7 revival, probably based on the assumption that the troopers in
the last episode had orders to take Avon alive, even if he indulged
in the Foreign Legion trip we saw him doing as the last episode
closed.  Alas, the difficulty of reassembling the previous cast will
probably cause Terry Nation to decree that the deaths in that
episode were real, and I'll never know if my pet theory (Blake had
invented some kind of test or exercise that required his followers
to believe he had betrayed them) was true.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 22:40:47 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU (Taeri Bellasar)
Subject: Re: How evil is Avon?

Paul Darrow was in DOCTOR WHO AND THE SILURIANS (w/ Pertwee as a
UNIT trooper) and in TIMELASH (w/ Colin Baker as maelin (sp?)
Tekka).

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 4 January 1988 17:38:48 EST
From: Mark.Paulk@sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Blake's 7

I recently started watching Blake's 7 and am enjoying it quite a bit
(it wasn't shown where I used to live).  I'd like to know a little
bit more about the series (since I've just dropped into the middle
of it).

Could someone post or mail a synopsis of the series?  I'd like more
background detail, such as where Blake and his crew come from.  Of
course it's pretty obvious from context that Blake and his cronies
were prisoners for different crimes, took over a prison ship,
discovered an abandoned and advanced starship, named her the
Liberator, and set out to save the galaxy.  But what were the crimes
of the individuals?  Are there cast changes as the series
progresses?  How long did the series run?  Will there be any more
made?  And so forth...

It's good camp SF, a lot better than Dr. Who, for my taste.  What
I'd really like is a detailed summary of each episode such as was
posted for Dr. Who a while back.  That's probably too much to hope
for, but I'll settle for whatever I can get.

Mark Paulk

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 88 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bellaires & Brin (2 msgs) &
                        Brunner (2 msgs) &
                        Cabell (2 msgs) & Campbell &
                        DeCamp (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 07:37:20 GMT
From: c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt)
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>John Bellaires
>   The Face in the Frost
>   (anyone know if he's done anything else???)

   He's done a number of juveniles, most notably "The House with a
Clock in its Walls," "The Figure in the Shadows," and "The Letter,
the Witch and the Ring," which remain one of my favorite fantasy
trilogies.  I like them better than "The Face in the Frost," as a
matter of fact.

Evan A.C. Hunt
c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu
ssyx!c2h5oh@ucscc.BITNET
...ucbvax!ssyx!c2h5oh

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 13:19:35 GMT
From: jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan Faidley)
Subject: Re: Brin

>Is Brin going to write another UPLIFT book and tell us, who these
>aliens are?  Let me know!!

Brin has stated in an interview he did for Starlog (sorry I don't
remember the number) that he had an idea to do six books in the
Startide Rising universe.  That was one to two years ago and I don't
know if he has changed his mind about this or not.  Hopefully, he
won't stop writing them.  Just because he explains about the
Progenators doesn't mean that there can't be any more stories to
write.  Hope this helps.

juan

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 06:00:31 GMT
From: mhuxu!davec@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Caswell)
Subject: Re: Brin

ecf_ejf@jhunix.UUCP (Juan Faidley) writes:
>Brin has stated in an interview he did for Starlog (sorry I don't
>remember the number) that he had an idea to do six books in the
>Startide Rising universe.  That was one to two years ago and I
>don't know if he has changed his mind about this or not.
>Hopefully, he won't stop writing them.  Just because he explains
>about the Progenators doesn't mean that there can't be any more
>stories to write.  Hope this helps.

Last year at one of the con's I attended Brin said that he didn't
like to work too long on one series.  So expect to see another book
that isn't related to UPLIFT first.

Dave Caswell
{allegra|ihnp4|...}!mhuxu!davec

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 17:46:24 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: brunner

> MANAGER@smith.BITNET (Mary Malmros)
>    _The Shockwave Rider_
>    _The Stone That Never Came Down_
>    _Stand on Zanzibar_
>   ...and one whose name I can't remember, but the primary villain
> seemed to be a bunch of people called Gottschalks.  Does anyone
> know the name of this book?

Yep.  One of my favorites, _Jagged_Orbit_.  Many little neato
touches, like for example the Gottschalk "family" names, which got
longer as rank increased.  Your family name might start out "Tony",
then become "Anthony", then "Antonioni", and so on and on.  The top
brass were called "polysylabics", and the ultra top execs had (if
I'm remembering correctly) 9 sylable names.  Except of course for
Robert Gottschalk, but he is a special case.

Or how about the psychiatrist who's goal was to put every person on
earth under intensive psychiatric care?  Hmmmm, can't seem to recall
the name of this doctor or his institute... I seem to have forgotten
enough about it to make it fun to read again.

Opinion: Brunner wrote cyberpunk before there was such a thing, and
his stuff is still better than essentially all current cyberpunk,
including Neuromancer.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 21:43:16 GMT
From: mcb@tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: brunner

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>>    ...and one whose name I can't remember, but the primary
>> villain seemed to be a bunch of people called Gottschalks.  Does
>> anyone know the name of this book?
> Yep.  One of my favorites, _Jagged_Orbit_.  Many little neato
> touches, like for example the Gottschalk "family" names, which got
> longer as rank increased.  Your family name might start out
> "Tony", then become "Anthony", then "Antonioni", and so on and on.
> The top brass were called "polysylabics", and the ultra top execs
> had (if I'm remembering correctly) 9 sylable names.  Except of
> course for Robert Gottschalk, but he is a special case.

Somebody told me that Brunner did this as a hommage to (the SF
writer) Felix Gottschalk ... can anyone confirm this?

Michael C. Berch
Internet: mcb@tis.llnl.gov
UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 01:39:22 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Your Mother)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

Some time I ago I mentioned James Branch Cabell's _Jurgen_ in the
ha-ha books discussions.  I also misquoted Cabell horribly from
memory, so I won't do that again.

   What I will do is recommend this book as one of the really great
Low Fantasies ever written.  For those of you unfamiliar with the
novel, it concerns the adventures of Jurgen, a "monstrously clever
fellow" in the mythical quasi-medieval land of Poictesme.  Upon
hearing a monk stub his toe and curse the devil, Jurgen points out
that the devil's not really a bad guy, he's just a working stiff
like you and me, trying to do his job.  Of course, a mysterious
stranger appears out of nowhere, and grants Jurgen a wish after
hearing his defense of the devil; while he doesn't exactly wish for
his nagging, shrewish wife to vanish, he does hint that it would be
nice to have some space for himself.  When Jurgen returns home, he
finds his wife gone; in fact, she never really existed.

   Disturbed, Jurgen sets out on a quest to find his wife, because,
after all, it *is* the honorable thing to do.  His adventures take
him back in time to his lost youth and the girl of his dreams, to
the priggish land of Philistia, to Hell, to Heaven, and eventually
all the way to the top to the disorganized dusty office of Kastchei,
the boss of the universe. (Those of you familiar with Heinlein's
*Job* will find that he cribbed a bit from Cabell.)  Along the way,
Jurgen demonstrates his cleverness and his sexual prowess, and many
profound observations about the human condition emerge.  There is a
Twain-like playfulness in the satiric portraits of royalty, the
church, etc.  The prose style is a wonderful fairy-tale sort of
narrative.  While feminists may find the female characters a little
stereotyped, the book's ultimate strengths overcome this minor flaw
(one common to many books of the period, and still over-exploited by
Hollywood and insensitive contemporary authors).  _Jurgen_ was
banned in Boston in its day (the 1920's) for its playful sexuality;
it's really quite tame by today's standards, and yet, it's also a
hell of lot more clever in its description of Jurgen's sexual
encounters than most fantasy authors today.  And it is quite simply
one of the wittiest books I've ever read.

   Chances are you won't find _Jurgen_ in your local bookstore.
It's published by Dover books--a facsimile of an early edition,
complete with marvelous illustrations.  Most bookstores can order it
easily.  If you look around in old bookstores, every now and then
you can stumble on an old hardback edition. . .

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 19:22:00 GMT
From: dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP (Chris Hertzog) writes:
>What I will do is recommend this book as one of the really great
>Low Fantasies ever written.

  While you may well be right, and certainly I will not go so far as
to say you are wrong, still...
  JURGEN is only one volume of the mammoth epos "Biography of the
Life of Manuel" [sic], and not my favorite. What do you have against
FIGURES OF EARTH? Or THE SILVER STALLION? Or THE WAY OF ECBEN? Or...
   And then there is the post-Biography trilogy "The Nightmare Has
Triplets"-- very hard to find, but worthwhile if you can get it.
The three volumes SMIRT, SMITH and SMIRE form a more-or-less
connected narrative of a dream of the author, where he sucessively
becomes omnipotent (within limits), a forest deity, and the
Peripatetic Episcopalian; all the while giving us profound literary
philosophy along with the entertainment.
   I understand the Jurgen court case was more or less put up as
publicity. One of the author's friends made sure the Roman Catholic
judge read the joke about papal infallibility (although the Pope is
not supposed to be infallible in arithmetic anyway), and got him
good and mad, sending sales through the roof. Cabell got his-- for
the rest of his life he wrote book after book only to find he was
still "the author of JURGEN". (There is a hilarious scene in SMIRT
satirizing this.) (Marion Zimmer Bradley has discovered the same
syndrome after THE MISTS OF AVALON).

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 21:12:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: COLD PRINT by Ramsey Campbell

              Review of COLD PRINT by Ramsey Campbell

   Ramsey Campbell was one of the second generation of Lovecraft
disciples. His first book, the Inhabitant of the Lake and Less
Welcome Tenants (trust Arkham House anthologies to have cutesy
titles), was published when he was in his teens and has been
out-of-print for years.  I was ecstatic to find that Cold Print
(published by TOR) contains a number of stories from that book,
since I've wanted to look at those stories for a long time and was
told (five years ago) that the first edition of Inhabitant would
cost about $30. Cold Print also contains later stories, most of
which have some hint of a Lovecraftian flavor.

   As in most of Campbell's books, there's a detailed introduction
on why certain stories were included/excluded, and the source ideas
for some of the stories. I've always felt that Campbell's best
stories are his painfully obscure ones. Most Lovecraft
disciples/imitators have no idea how to handle foreshadowing
effectively; their "subtle" hints are like the KKK leaving 8 foot
high burning crosses on people's lawns.  Campbell's hints are
relatively obscure: a newspaper headline that's quickly glossed over
(in Cold Print), or maybe a small snippet of a conversation. Also,
in the most effective Campbell stories, he tries draw the reader
into experiencing the traumatic event, rather than describe it from
a distance like Lovecraft and his lesser imitators.

   Campbell includes some passages from his first published story,
"The Church in High Street", that were deleted from the final
version when August Derleth "edited" it. They're really overwritten
and funny.  Even the finished story and some of the earlier material
from Inhabitant are awkward and campy. To his credit, the teenaged
Campbell tries to invent new monsters and situations that are
significantly different from those rehashed endlessly by lesser
Lovecraft imitators such as Brian Lumley (most of Campbell's
monsters are not dark amorphous blobs, for instance). However, he
was still trapped by the web of "Lovecraftian" rhetoric that he felt
obliged to generate. Most of the stories from Inhabitant looked very
dated to me (though some are campy and a lot of fun to read, and
some of the monsters are rather original). Even "The Render of the
Veils", which Campbell considers a milestone in his liberation from
the Lovecraft style, seemed rather unsatisfying. "The Inhabitant of
the Lake" itself disappointed me mainly because I had read
Campbell's own analysis of the castration imagery in it and had very
high hopes for it. Most of the story failed to convey the dreamlike
atmosphere of the climatic sequence.

   "Before the Storm", written much later, is fairly close to the
traditional Lovecraft plot structure, but has a gruesome last scene
that somebody should steal for a movie (maybe John Carpenter?)
Campbell decided not to include "The Stone on the Island" because of
its "adolescent sadism", which is too bad because I consider it one
of the first effective stories in his new prose style; it's spare,
subtle and has another truly gruesome revelation at the end. "Cold
Print" is still one of my favorites (originally appeared in Tales of
the Cthulhu Mythos) because of Campbell's effective evocation of
rundown, depressing urban landscapes. These environments dominate
the stories in his '70s collections like the Height of the Scream,
with their seedy characters in tenements and slimy garbage.
(Unfortunately, Campbell later abandoned this style to write more
conventional horror novels.)

   Despite all its faults, Cold Print is a lot of fun to read, and
does reprint some obscure material.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Dec 87 11:31:31 est
From: anand@amax.npac.syr.edu (Rangachari Anand)
Subject: The unbeheaded king by Sprague de Camp

  In all the time that I have read this news group, I am surprised
that no one has mentioned one of my all time favourite fantasy.
Which is the Unbeheaded King series by Sprague de Camp. This is an
incredibly funny series of three books which consist of

   1. The Goblin tower
   2. The clocks of Iraz
   3. The Unbeheaded King.

   What makes this series unique in my opinion is the fact that it
is written for a mature audience. Rather than dwell on beefy
superheroes it is about an itinerant clock maker who gets into some
pretty wild adventures. But what makes this really special for me is
the use of digressive stories. Jorian - the main character - every
now and then tells stories about the kings of his country.

   I can't recommend this series strongly enough. I must have read
them dozens of times.  Is there anyone else out there in netland who
also likes this series?

R. Anand
Arpa: anand@amax.npac.syr.edu
bitnet: ranand@sunrise

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 17:53:38 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: The unbeheaded king by Sprague de Camp

anand@AMAX.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand) writes:
>  In all the time that I have read this news group, I am surprised
>that no one has mentioned one of my all time favourite fantasy.
>Which is the Unbeheaded King series by Sprague de Camp. This is an
>incredibly funny series of three books which consist of

I've read these books, and *I* wouldn't recommend them. L. Sprague
de Camp seems to be stuck in a Situation Comedy Universe which he
plummeted into while muttering mathematical formulas one night. The
"comedy" in this book is fairly standard - Our Hero wanders from
place to place trying to find his favorite wife while pursued by his
former countrymen who want to consummate his kingship - by giving
him a close shave.

Along the way he meets up with the standard Comedy Universe
assortment of odd characters, who play their pieces and disappear.
This is where whatever humor in the books comes from, but it rarely
works. Anyway, this is a light fantasy with the Traveller plotline
(one of the standard plotlines used by light fantasy), and if you
liked Asprin's "Myth" series or Craig Shaw Gardners books, you'll
probably like these, too.

>What makes this series unique in my opinion is the fact that it is
>written for a mature audience.

In what way? The only "adult" situations are of the "Three's
Company" variety.

>But what makes this really special for me is the use of digressive
>stories. Jorian - the main character - every now and then tells
>stories about the kings of his country.

If you like digression and story-telling, try John Crowley's "Engine
Summer" or Gene Wolf's "Book of the New Sun". If comedy is what
you're looking for, I found Terry Pratchett's "Flat Earth" series a
lot funnier than anything by L. Sprague de Camp

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 88 0906-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:

             Books - Benford & Brooks & Card (2 msgs) &
                     Delany (3 msgs) & Duane (2 msgs) &
                     Ford (3 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) &
                     Powers & Dennis Schmidt

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 20:42:58 GMT
From: well!mandel@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Mandel)
Subject: Gregory Benford's _Great Sky River_

   I just happily discovered that the third of Gregory Benford's
novels set in his unique future universe has been published in
hardcover.  Titled _Great Sky River_, its story takes place 70,000
years after those of _In the Ocean of the Night_ and _Across the Sea
of Stars_ on a planet circling close to the great black hole at the
center of the galaxy.
   I think this is Benford's best novel, at least of the three.  In
it, human civilization has been reduced to a few starving, nomadic
humans on a constant run from an intelligent mechanical
civilization, the same one that appears gradually in the preceding
novels in the series.  The theme of the book is the nature of
humanity.
   To avoid spoilers, I won't say much more, except that this will
probably be a candidate for the Hugo and Nebula awards next year and
that if you pay close attention you will find reference to Nigel
Walmsley, hero of the first two books.  Serious Benford fans will
not want to wait for the paperback, but rather run out and buy the
hardcover.

Tom Mandel
well!mandel
mandel@kl.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 03:35:43 GMT
From: dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

kmr@sun.UUCP (Karl MacRae) writes:
>farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>1)  I agree completly; Terry Brooks is a *hack*, who's
>spending his life writing lousy Tolkien rip-offs!

It is amazing, Brooks wrote one book that he admits was heavily
influenced by Tolkien, he'd just read _The Lord of the Rings_, and
he's labeled a Tolkien hack...Never mind that since then he's had 4
other books, none tolkien-esque save only that they are fantasies.
You can't get much farther from Tolkien than Magic Kingdom or Black
Unicorn.  Now, if you want to say he's not the greatest writer of
all time, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but this
Tolkien nonsense is very old.  He's not my all time favorite either,
but I do like his books. Including the entire Shannara series, yes,
even the first.

Opinions are like grains of sand, there're so many of them.

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 06:19:46 GMT
From: xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: The "Ender" Trilogy (and Ansibles)

From: dave at endor.harvard.edu (David Albert)
>Now I have two more questions: is O. S. Card on the net?  And, does
>anyone know if a third book is in the works?  One of the reviews on
>the back of the paperback says that "_Speaker_ completes
>_Ender's_Game_", but that certainly wasn't my impression.  I see
>pain, suffering, and similar merriment ahead for all.  And perhaps
>the formation of a new religion here on Earth (:-)....

Question one: No. Scott is, however, fond of DELPHI. Ask someone who
knows something about Delphi for more details.

Question two: Yes. To explain briefly, there will someday be a
sequel to _Speaker for the Dead_. Its current working title is
_Ender's Children_. I am unclear exactly when it will begin,
although we can guess that it will involve the resolution of events
that the Hundred Worlds put into action at the end of _Speaker_.
Scott is contractually obligated to write it (his agent signed off
the British rights to "The Ender Trilogy" back in 1983, when Scott
thought he was only going to be writing two...), and deferred
certain themes and events into the third book--material especially
pertaining to Jane and to the Bugger.  Anyway, Scott has not (at
last report) set Word One of the actual book to print, although he
has wrestled quite a bit with the plot outline; he believes (perhaps
correctly; who am I to judge?) that he is not yet a good enough
writer to make the book exactly what it _needs_ to be.  In the
meantime, enjoy _Red Prophet_, which is due out in hardcover in late
January.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 16:15:47 GMT
From: kcd@usl (Karen C. Davis)
Subject: Re: The "Ender" Trilogy

cdwf@root44.UUCP (Clive D.W. Feather) writes:
>albert@endor.UUCP (David Albert) writes:
>>does anyone know if a third book is in the works?
>My copy of Ender's Game says on the back cover that it is the first
>of a trilogy. Not a proof, I know.

The second book of the trilogy is entitled _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
and has been out over a year.  Personally, I enjoyed it but not as
much as I enjoyed _Ender's_Game_.  _SftD_ I was actually able to put
down when I had to eat and sleep and things like that.  But it was
good.

The third book, I think, will be entitled _Ender's_Children_.  I
don't know when it is supposed to come out.

Bob Davis

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 87 01:11:08 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!ken@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Ken Karakotsios)
Subject: Re: Delany's _Neveryona_

laura@haddock.ISC.COM (The writer in the closet) writes:
> Has anyone else read "Neveryona?"  I'm a little ways into it
> (approx. 100 pages) and it's just not moving at all.  [...]  Does
> anyone know what Delany was trying to do with "Neveryona?"

The impression that I got when I read Neveryona is that one of
Delany's goals was to create a society, and show the reader the
history, myths, technological development, politics, and general
"cultural texture" of the place.  If I remember correctly, Delany
describes several points in time in this culture where certain
people came up with ideas which changed civilization.  I may be
getting this book confused with "Tales of Neveryon", but the same
theme seems to be in both.  Perhaps it is a study of history in the
making, showing how serendipitous history is, and how the people who
make history often have no idea they are doing so at the time they
are (making history).  In these books, it sort of felt like the
characters, as developed as they were, existed more as a vehicle to
unfold the complexities and history of the culture than as the focus
of an action packed plot.

My favorite by him is still "The Einstein Intersection".

Ken Karakotsios
decwrl!sci!ken

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 16:52:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Delany's _Neveryona_

Nothing much happens in Neveryona because Delany intended it as a
different type of fantasy from the run-of-the-mill barbarians and
dragons story (both barbarians and dragons appear in all the
Neveryon books). It's pretty much a fleshing-out of the environment
he created in Tales of Neveryon and a meditation on socio-economic
development and oppression, kind of Delany's version of Foucault's
historical analyses, moved to a fictional context.

It's been a while since I read Neveryona, so I can't say if
something exciting happens after the first 100 pages. I've read most
of Delany's fiction, and I've found Neveryona to be one of his more
disappointing books, even though I thought some of the discussions
in it were very interesting. It's certainly one of his more
difficult books (and much more rewarding than the rather naive
earlier books like Ballad of Beta-2).

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 17:35:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Delany's _Neveryona_

kjm@xyzzy.UUCP writes:
>Was _Stars_ really that good? I've heard such mixed reviews of it,
>I'd like to hear some more detailed analysis of it.

I liked Stars... a lot. I think it synthesizes Delany's Neveryon-ian
historical analysis (borrowed from Foucault) and the themes of
earlier works like Triton into a rich, complex book. It's been too
long since I last read it, so I won't post a detailed review.

I should also crank out that review of Bridge of Lost Desire
sometime...

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 88 12:35:07 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Diane Duane

I was just curious--what do other people out there think of her
writing? I know there are people (including myself) who think that
she's one of the best writers around, but what do the rest of you
think?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 07:24:12 GMT
From: unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane

ST801179@brownvm.BITNET (Garrett Fitzgerald) writes:
>I was just curious--what do other people out there think of her
>writing? I know there are people (including myself) who think that
>she's one of the best writers around, but what do the rest of you
>think?

Some of us agree with you. I have enjoyed all of her work, except
the Thieves' World stories (but then I don't like thieves anyway). I
think she has an excellent ability at world building, a decent
ability at plotting, never takes a "cheap" escape, and is a lot of
fun to read.

For those who don't know her work, her novels are:

The Door Series:
   The Door Into Fire
   The Door Into Shadow

The Wizard Series (Juveniles):
   So You Want To Be A Wizard
   Deep Wizardry

Star Trek Novels:
   My Enemy My Ally
   The Wounded Sky
   Romulan Way

Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 06:39:13 GMT
From: xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: How Much For Just the Planet

>From: srt at CS.UCLA.EDU
>"ZZASSGL" writes:
>Am I the only one to have found "How Much for Just the Planet"
>disappointing?
>I read it after the discussion on the net and found it only mildly
>humorous.  Perhaps it helps to be a dedicated Trek fan and to have
>read some of the other Trek books...

I beg to differ. I'm one of the most die-hard _How Much..._ boosters
around; I have never read _any_ other Trek novels, and don't much
like most of the celluloid version, either. (Unlike my brother, I
don't watch TNG.) I found _How Much_ to be quite amusing for a
number of reasons; it had large doses of good slapstick, funny (but
in character) contrivances; great Klingons (I especially liked
Kaden's analysis of the evolution of the tuxedo from various pieces
of body- armor), and lots of nice little one liners. It was
fragmented and scattered, but I can forgive that sometimes. Besides,
wasn't it worth it just to catch Kirk with his pants down?

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 17:54:33 GMT
From: dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: How Much For Just the Planet

ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA (LT Sheri Smith USN) writes:
>wind up in a digest.) As a result of further discussion on the net,
>I have reached the conclusion that it is strictly a Trekker/Trekkie
>insider book, and should be avoided by _All Others_.

Hmm, never knew I was a Trekkie insider. Guess my habit of avoiding
Star Trek cons fool me.
   Are all his allusions directed at Trekkies? Does appreciation of
parody of Coward, and all the others mentioned in his dedication,
become the mark of a "Trekkie insider"? I regarded the book as "a
Star Trek novel for people who hate Star Trek novels". And the only
other STN I found palatable was.... you guessed it, THE FINAL
REFLECTION.

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 04:38:12 GMT
From: psc@lznv.att.com (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: How Much For Just the Planet

brust@starfire.UUCP (Steven K. Zoltan Brust) writes:
> I am not a Star Trek fan, which perhaps explains it, but I enjoyed
> How Much... a great deal.  However, I didn't read it as a Star
> Trek novel, but rather, once I saw what was going on, as a musical
> comedy.

I decided to give it a good chance.  The not-orange juice at the
very beginning told me this was a *silly* story.  Both my wife and I
took it that way, and got quite a few chuckles out of it.  If you've
got a couple of hours for a farce, and your tastes run to that sort
of a thing, and you don't take Star Trek too seriously, then this
one's for you, Bud.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{ihnp4,cbosgd,allegra,rutgers}!mtune!lznv!psc
psc@lznv.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 22:06:47 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Kurtz Recommendation & Question (Was Re: Fantasy books)

douglis@ginger.Berkeley.EDU (Fred Douglis) writes:
>I only just started following this discussion, so I don't know if
>anyone has mentioned one of my favorite fantasy series: the Deryni
>books, by Katherine Kurtz.  Read them in chronological order
>(_Camber_of_Culdi_ first) rather than the order in which they were
>written, and I think you'll enjoy them more.

Yes, by all means, read them. They are (to abuse the language)
fantastic fantasies, in both senses of fantastic. But I would
recommend reading them in the order they were written. The first
trilogy gives some hints as to what went on in the dim past, and
will leave you wanting more explanation.  The second trilogy (The
Legends of Camber of Culdi) will give you that explanation. If you
read them in chronological order, a lot of the mystery is taken away
from the (chronologically) later books.

Now, a question for Kurtz fans. A listing a while back (from one of
the net's ambitious transcribers) said that the 4th Deryni trilogy,
called "Javan's Year" was to start with "The Harrowing of Gwynedd",
and I believe it was from Del Rey, as were the others. Another
listing, appearing last week (I think) gave a totally different
title, no series name, and gave Ace as the publisher of Kurtz's
latest book. So, did the title change?  or are they two different
books? If they're different, where and when is the next Deryni book
due?

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 09:11:20 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Kurtz Recommendation & Question

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>douglis@ginger.Berkeley.EDU (Fred Douglis) writes:
>>the Deryni books, by Katherine Kurtz.
>
>Yes, by all means, read them. They are (to abuse the language)
>fantastic fantasies, in both senses of fantastic.

For an extremely well-reasoned rebuttal of this statement, I
recommend (very, very highly) Ursula LeGuin's essay "From Elfland to
Poughkeepsie", reprinted in the collection "Languages of the Night".
Reading this essay let me identify, for the first time, exactly why
I am so dissatisfied with much of the stuff being billed as fantasy
these days.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 22:08:18 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Tim Powers' "On Stranger Tides"

I am surprised nobody has yet mentioned this book.  It's a new
fantasy novel by Powers, the author of "Dinner at Deviant's Palace"
and "Anubis Gates", and it's in my opinion the best work Powers has
ever done.  Magic, ghosts, voodoo, piracy, sea combat, Carribean
colonial economics and politics at the end of the buccaneer era...
Seems very well researched, with an amazing feel of historical
authenticity.

Excellent book, a fun read.  To hell with the ratings.  If you liked
"Anubis Gates" -- you'll like this book too.  (No, it's NOTHING like
"Anubis Gates" -- no Chalker or Moorcock type "standard plot" here!)

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 87 13:04:21 MEZ
From: I0060303%DBSTU1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Dennis Schmidt

Dennis Schmidt wrote 'Way-Farer' (1978, Ace books).  In the book
there were given 2 other titles: 'Kensho', 'Satori'.  Can anyone
give an opinion/spoiler on those books?

Klaus

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 88 0923-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Donaldson (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 87 12:31:22 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

pwc@mitre-bedford.arpa (Patrick W. Connors) writes:
>>>The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever: by
>>>   Stephen Donaldson
>>
>>I'm not sure I'd recommend this to a beginner.
>I don't understand the above remark.  Is it necessary to have
>experience reading fantasy to enjoy the Covenant books?  Several
>people I know have read these books as their first fantasy novels
>and enjoyed them tremmendously.

   I read this series when it first came out (the blurp on the cover
said that it was as good as Tolkien, which I had read earlier, so I
got suckered).  I was 13-16 years old (depending on which book in
the series we are talking about) and after some initial difficulty,
I enjoyed them tremendously.  I recently reread the whole series
again (with a, hopefully, more mature attitude) and they were still
great.  I did realise, though, that a bunch of stuff had gone right
over my head the first time around.  If I did not have a rule that
forced me to read every page of any book I start into, I would have
probably given up on them early.  Although I recommend the series
wholeheartedly, I must agree with Chuq Von Rospach when he suggests
that beginning (F&SF) readers try something less arduous, or risk
being turned off.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: Wed 23 Dec 87 09:15:46-PST
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: Thomas Covenant

From: laura@haddock.isc.com
>I must disagree on the recommendation of the Thomas Covenant
>series.  ... I made it halfway through the first one and threw it
>across the room in disgust.  NEVER have I seen such an
>unsympathetic protagonist.

Laura, I think you missed something very important.  The character
T-C had just become adjusted to a new reality of his own world, an
affliction for which he could never expect a cure, only suppression,
and that at the cost of unusual diligence.  He must, of necessity,
become the epitome of the rational person.  Now he finds himself in
a world where much conflicts with his previous experience, and his
rationality is challenged.  He is haunted by the notion that failing
to heed his programming for the leprosy can be fatal, yet this new
world seems to encourage him to ignore that upon which his life had
depended.  While i found his response toward his guide repulsive,
more of the story showed me that the real theme was about at least
two major concepts: [a] the greater the capacity we have for good,
the greater is our corresponding capacity to do evil.  Few of us go
through life only using one of these capacities.  Each of us must
guard, throughout our lives, against our potential for evil, and
consciously choose good.
   [b] the ultimate result of each choice will not necessarily be
apparent to us; sometimes we must wrangle the good from a bad
situation; we are never an unmitigated blessing to those around us,
particularly to those closest to us.  Is the situation over
dramatized?  Perhaps, but unsympathetic?  Not if you've lived with a
chronic problem such as severe asthma or diabetes.  Perhaps to those
whose great challenges in life have been the choice of going to
Europe for the summer or cruising the Carribean.  Perhaps to those
whose greatest misfortune was that the plumber couldn't come until
after the weekend.  I heartily recommend the series, to be read with
an introspective eye; asking one's self how am I responding to life,
how can I proactively direct its circumstances.

Dale

------------------------------

From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 26 Dec 87 15:01:19 GMT

D-ROGERS@EDWARDS-2060.ARPA writes:
>>From: laura@haddock.isc.com
>>I must disagree on the recommendation of the Thomas Covenant series.
>>[... extreme disgust with T.C. deleted ...]
>Laura, I think you missed something very important.  The character
>T-C had just become adjusted to a new reality of his own world, an
>affliction for which he could never expect a cure, only
>suppression, and that at the cost of unusual diligence.  He must,
>of necessity, become the epitome of the rational person. [.. lucid
>defense of T.C. deleted for brevity ...]

Well, despite your well thought-out explanation of why T.C. wasn't
necessarily as bad as I thought, I still think T.C. is a twit.  And
I tend to believe you're reading a depth of character into him that
wasn't there.  And even if it was, I'd still be unswayed, since I
don't read fantasy to read about characters with Covenant's
qualities (or the (admittedly debatable) lack thereof).
Nonetheless, I appreciate the hint as to why *anyone* would like the
Covenant books.  I'm unconvinced, but I'm glad you like 'em, 'cause
*someone* has to read 'em! :-)

Thanks!

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 87 12:43:38 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

Your analysis of this series, which I have refrained from
reprinting, fails at its base.  Covenant is not a man whose
capability for good is balanced by his capability for evil; he is a
man who is, at base, contemptible, who does good not because he
wishes to, for the most part, but because to do so is either forced
on him or a product of chance.  It is extremely important, when you
wish to deal properly with important themes of good and evil, to
establish a character who can be identified with, who can generate
compassion.  Covenant is not such a character; any conclusions which
might be drawn as to the 'theme' of Donaldson's series are ones
which are forced as much by what is not present in the books as by
what is there.

When you combine Covenant's character with the very badly handled
and cardboard characterization of the majority of the other
characters in the series, and with the unbelievably bad prose style
Donaldson inflicts on the reader, you have, in total, a series that
I cannot recommend to anyone; that, in fact, I encourage people to
avoid like the plague.  As the London Times reviewer said of Richard
Adam's 'Maia', "This is not a book to be taken lightly.  It should
be thrown across the room with great force."

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 87 22:24:20 GMT
From: dim@cblpf.att.com (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

Michael Farren writes, in response to someone extolling the virtues
of Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series:
> Your analysis of this series, which I have refrained from
> reprinting, fails at its base.  Covenant is not a man whose
> capability for good is balanced by his capability for evil; he is
> a man who is, at base, contemptible, who does good not because he
> wishes to, for the most part, but because to do so is either
> forced on him or a product of chance.

That's exact, to the point, and, in my opinion, correct.  Covenant
is an unmitigated jerk.  Shoved kicking and squalling along a path
that he does not want to travel.  Denying all the way.

> (here I deleted stuff)
> When you combine Covenant's character with the very badly handled
> and cardboard characterization of the majority of the other
> characters in the series, and with the unbelievably bad prose
> style Donaldson inflicts on the reader, you have, in total, a
> series that I cannot recommend to anyone; that, in fact, I
> encourage people to avoid like the plague.

Actually, it all depends upon who is asking as to whether or not I
recommend it.  There are some folk that really do like TCofTC, and
when I find people who I think are of a like mind, I recommend it
with a rather large caveat upon my part.  I admit right up front
that it isn't my cup of tea, but that <fill in name of one who
enjoyed it> really liked it.

> As the London Times reviewer said of Richard Adam's 'Maia', "This
> is not a book to be taken lightly.  It should be thrown across the
> room with great force."

Although you might be quoting the reviewer correctly, he was then
misquoting, I think, Dorothy Parker, whose original saying was
closer to: "This is not a book to be tossed aside lightly, instead
it should be hurled across the room with great force."

I am working from memory, but the humor of her comment was such that
I filed it away in my engrams.

Michael, I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of Covenant, but
you might think about who is asking before recommending against it.
After all, lots of folks out there do indeed like the bastard.

Dennis L. McKiernan

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 87 03:37:48 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

dim@cblpf.ATT.COM (Dennis McKiernan) writes:
>Michael Farren writes, in response to someone extolling the virtues
>of Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series:
>> When you combine Covenant's character with the very badly handled
>> and cardboard characterization of the majority of the other
>> characters
>Actually, it all depends upon who is asking as to whether or not I
>recommend it.  There are some folk that really do like TCofTC, and
>when I find people who I think are of a like mind, I recommend it
>...
>Michael, I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of Covenant,
>but you might think about who is asking before recommending against
>it.  After all, lots of folks out there do indeed like the bastard.

I'd just like to make a quick point - I've missed a bit of this
discussion, but I think this could use mentioning.
    There is a large difference between liking the Covenant books
and liking the Thomas Covenant character.  I'm sure no one thought
that the character was supposed to be likable, but I'm certain that
Donaldson intended his books to be appreciated.  It's debatable
whether or not a book has to have a likeable protagonist (as
opposed to an unwilling one) to be successful.  In any case, the two
aspects seem to be used interchangeably above, so I thought I'd
comment.  Also, I appreciate the distinction you make, between
liking a book and being willing to concede that there are those who
might like it (and possible that it might be good).  I think more
people should make the distinction between books that they didn't
like and books that they thought weren't good.  I've read plenty of
books I didn't enjoy, but I certainly wouldn't give all of them a
thumbs down if asked for a recommendation.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 87 12:59 EDT
From: <MANAGER%smith.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: re: Donaldsonfantasy recs

I read the first of the Thomas Covenant books and didn't like it at
all. I guess this was because I read it during my Epic Struggle
phase and I believed that if you're an unwilling hero or heroine who
gets a quest dumped on you, you're entitled to cry and scream and
plead and faint and whine and complain for a while, but at SOME
POINT you're supposed to pull up your socks and get on with it.  I
felt like Covenant was an unwilling participant to the end.  Of
course, it's been a LONG time since I read this book...

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 17:51:07 GMT
From: pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

I agree heartily that Thomas Covenant is a jerk.  However, he is
also frighteningly believable if you consider his background.

Through no fault of his own, he has become reviled by the world as
he knows it.  He is a leper.  There is no denying it, no getting
around it; and being a realist, he knows that he is dangerous to
those around him.  Who wouldn't succumb to self-loathing under those
circumstances?

So here we have a seriously depressed and bitter person who loathes
himself, but at the same time wants badly to live.  When he is
thrown into the Land, he is terrified that he has lost his mind, and
if he lets go of "reality", he will be killing himself.  He can't
believe that the Land is real, he is astounded that people might be
nice to him, and so lashes out whenever he finds himself believing
in it.

If you have ever been around a depressed person who utterly and
violently hates himself, you will readily recognize Covenant.

This is not a pretty picture, and most people can't identify with
it.  And yes, Donaldson's prose is almost too thick to wade through
to get to the meat of this fascinating character.  And I've always
wanted all the books in a series to be able to stand on their own
merits, not just as a plot train, and the Covenant books don't make
it.  But it's a great series to read when you're feeling really
glum. :-)

Cheers,
Pooh
pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 87 15:36:05 GMT
From: uvm-gen!connors@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Thomas Covenant the MegaJerk, but still a good read

I agree with all of the posters on one point.  I loathe Donaldson's
character, Thomas Covenant.  The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the
Unbeliever is some of best antihero epics I have ever read.
Admittedly, antihero stories are very difficult to read.  It's like
working for a boss which you utterly despise.  You still because you
must for one reason or another.

There were character from 'our' dimensional plane which weren't
totally loathsome.  Hile Troy is a case in point.  Troy was blind
from birth in 'our' reality.  For reasons I can't remember, he winds
up in The Land.  Hile Troy accepts his newly given/found sight
rather readily when compared with Covenant unacceptance of his cure.
Troy wholeheartedly throws in his talents for the good of The Land.
Hile Troy is very disgusted with Thomas Covenant, because of
Covenant's refusal to accept what is happening.

The truly redeeming qualities of the books were the supporting
chararcters.  My two favorites were Bannor and Saltheart
Foamfollower.  Saltheart is one of my favorite literary characters
of all time.  I believe Donaldson surrounds Covenant with
outstanding individuals on purpose.  This further highlights T.C.'s
inadequacies and his many other faults.  These supporting characters
really made the books worth reading.

y wife tells me that his 'Mirror'(?) books are very good, no Thomas
Covenants in those stories.

John M. Connors
Rokeby  RD #1
Ferrisburg, VT 05456
UUCP: {linus,ihnp4,decvax}!dartvax!uvm-gen!connors
BitNet: jconnors@uvmvm
CSNET : connors%gen.uvm.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 17:05:33 GMT
From: rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

pooh@oddjob.uchicago.edu.UUCP writes:
>I agree heartily that Thomas Covenant is a jerk.  However, he is
>also frighteningly believable if you consider his background.

It looks like I'm still one of the few who actually enjoyed the
Covenant series.  :-) I admit there are problems with the books and
perhaps that expands to writing and writing style (like, I can make
those statements about every book I've read if I want to, no matter
how much I've loved or hated them).

However, I found the entire presentation a very refreshing change of
pace.  For practically the first time, we do not have a super-hero
type of 'average' character who is totally willing to sacrifice his
life and everything he has known to save the known universe.  The
end result may have been similar, but at least he behaved true to
his character and nature throughout the series - which, by the way,
doesn't normally jive with the definition of the major character(s)
as they are written in a SF/Fantasy novel.  Perhaps it's these type
of theoretically realistic attitudes that has offended some people.
Everyone likes to fantasize about being a savior of some sort, and
the only way a person can usually do that is by becoming engrossed
into a book.  The Covenant series never gives you that satisfaction.
In actuality, it presents a character that is much more realistic
than most ever presented.  Like I said, refreshing.

Robert J. Granvin
2701 West 43rd Street
Minneapolis, MN  55410
INTERNET: rjg@sialis.mn.org
UUCP: ...ihnp4!meccts!sialis!rjg
      ...uunet!rosevax!ems!sialis!rjg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 88 0937-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:

              Books - Burke & Leguin (9 msgs) & Peake

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 87 16:06:48 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Robert Miall

From:   cheviot!eas
> About ten years ago I got a second hand copy of "UFO 1: Flesh
> Hunters" by Robert Miall. It is a Warner Paperback Library
> edition, printed with permission from Pan books (who presumably
> did the UK edition). I haven't seen any since then. How many of
> these UFO novels were there?

There were two UFO novels, UFO-1: FLESH HUNTERS (British title
simply UFO) and UFO-2: SPORTING BLOOD (British title simply UFO 2).

> Did Robert Miall write anything else?

Not as Robert Miall. His real name is John Burke, and has also
written as Jonathan Burke. Under both names, he's written about a
dozen and a half sf/fantasy/horror novels and over two dozen
mysteries, many in both genres being movie novelizations. He also
edited about half a dozen horror anthologies. He hasn't done much in
the last 10 years or so, though.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 20:32:05 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: LeGuin

>Kevin Cherkauer says:
> The [Earthsea trilogy] was cute and all, but seemed a bit
> juvenile.

Eric Green writes:
>It's supposed to be. It's a JUVENILE. You know, written for KIDS.
>You know, like Heinlein used to write in his better days?

Hmm... The The first book of the trilogy certainly started out like
a juvenile and that made it hard to get into.  But, by the second
book, it was most definitely NOT a juvenile.  In fact, most kids
would probably be boored stiff by the second book.  My idea was that
LeGuin changed her mind about writing a juvenile but never went back
and fixed up the beginning of the series.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 87 07:36:07 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: LeGuin

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Hmm... The The first book of the trilogy certainly started out like
>a juvenile and that made it hard to get into.  But, by the second
>book, it was most definitely NOT a juvenile.  In fact, most kids
>would probably be boored stiff by the second book.  My idea was
>that LeGuin changed her mind about writing a juvenile but never
>went back and fixed up the beginning of the series.

My idea is that LeGuin knew EXACTLY what she was doing, and just
wasn't one of those people that believe that children cannot, or
should not be allowed to, think.  Tombs of Atuan is a difficult
book, to be sure.  It's a difficult book for adults, not just for
children.  It's far from being the only book purportedly for
children which addresses tough issues in an artistically satisfying
way.

I neither have nor have any current association with children of the
appropriate age group for Wizard of Earthsea.  I know, though, that
I've been consistently amazed at what children can grasp, and even
find appealing.  Ten years ago, the woman I was involved with had a
daughter, 10 years old.  She was taking on Ann McCaffrey's Dragon
books, starting with the 'easier' ones like Dragonsinger.  She ended
up reading the first one, which is arguably the most 'adult' of the
entire series, and liking it the best of them all.  She had an
enormous number of questions about the things she didn't understand
in that book, but proved, to me at least, that unilaterally deciding
what children can and cannot understand is a very dumb move.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 87 21:14:06 GMT
From: cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt)
Subject: Re: LeGuin

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> (about "The Dispossessed");
>PLUS, this physicist took great pains to explain carefully to the
>reader every blessed detail of his grand unifying theory, EVEN
>THOUGH THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REST OF THE BOOK AND
>OBVIOUSLY IS TOTALLY MEANINGLESS.

The conflict over sequentiality vs. synchronicity had a lot to do
with the rest of the book.  Shevek, as an academic, was involved in
the sort of conflicts all academicians have to deal with.  Can you
say, "giving some depth to the story"?  I knew you could.

>Usually, I have noticed, when I or anyone says that they didn't
>like the works of someone else's favorite author, that person
>instantly comes back with stuff like, "Oh YEAH?! Well did you read
>this n this n this n this n this by that author? Well, until you
>have, shut up."

Well, I didn't tell you to shut up necessarily.  I told you not to
make generalized statements about an author until you've read a good
percentage of his/her work.  When Jayembee makes a statement and
backs up his point of view, I respect it because I know he's read
every damn thing the person wrote.  When you read 1 or 2 works of an
author (and yes, damn it, she *is* one of my favorites), I feel
obliged to point out that you're giving her short shrift.

>The REASON I haven't read this n this... is because the books I
>*did* read so turned me off from that author that I didn't want to
>read any more that person had written. Why torture myself? In this
>case, it was _The Dispossessed_ which finally made me see that I
>disliked LeGuin.

OK, I can handle that.  But my point still stands.  What about Left
Hand of Darkness, then?

>Surprisingly, in the 12-87 (I believe) issue of F&SF, LeGuin had a
>story printed and her name on the cover, and I thought, "Oh GOD not
>her again," but I read the story anyway and actually thought it
>quite good. This will probably not make LeGuin someone whose works
>I will seek out, but at least they are not all as bad as _The
>Dispossessed_.

Still pretty narrow minded if you ask me.  Of course, no one asked
me. :-)

Walter

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 87 12:57 EDT
From: <MANAGER%smith.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: re: LeGuin

> (where have we seen the physicist-fighting-for-human-rights plot
> device before?  Oh...I don't know. I don't think any other SF
> author has ever done this one before :-(.

Well...even so, I'd say that this is pretty far down the list of
all-time most overused science fiction cliches.  In fact, I think
that this is a device that LeGuin uses very well.  She does
something quite similar in the novella _The New Atlantis_, in which
the physicist-fighting-etc. is the main character's husband, Simon.
In the novella, he and some other scientists invent a very efficient
solar cell that they use to light a lightbulb.  The story is told
from the point of view of Simon's wife, who is a musician.  Like
LeGuin, she is not a hard scientist, and the workings of the device
are never explored in any detail; yet the eyes of the musician see
very clearly the beauty and nobility of the endeavor, and she
understands its implications.

The device that Simon and the other scientists invent is potentially
very empowering, and for that reason they must hide it from the
authorities, who have a vested interest in promoting scarcity and
retaining control of the necessities of life (including
electricity).  Its utility aside, the device is also threatening
since it results from an independent, non-sanctioned endeavor, and
represents an encouragement of sorts for further endeavors of this
sort.  This is a standard device in any kind of
fighting-against-oppression literature; there's always something (an
inspiring piece of literature, a forbidden song, The Right to Bear
Arms, whatever) that provides both support and reason for the
resistance.  Unfortunately, these too can become cliched, and I
think LeGuin was aware of that.  If you read NA, you'll see that she
could have chosen any kind of empowering device, since it's not the
solar cell that makes NA a work of science fiction.  In choosing a
scientific invention, LeGuin has managed to avoid a lot of
revolutionary-lit stereotypes, which I think are a whole lot worse
and much more overdone than the physicist-fighting-etc. stereotype.

Anyway.  _The Dispossessed_ is a big book, it's not action-oriented,
it's not hard science fiction, and it obviously doesn't appeal to
everyone.  I would encourage Kevin, and anyone else who was turned
off by _The Dispossessed_, to try _The New Atlantis_, and see if you
find the physicist-etc. any more likeable in a shorter form.

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 19:26:48 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Earthsea is Juvenile?

Michael J. Farren writes:
>My idea is that LeGuin knew EXACTLY what she was doing, and just
>wasn't one of those people that believe that children cannot, or
>should not be allowed to, think.  Tombs of Atuan is a difficult
>book, to be sure.  It's a difficult book for adults, not just for
>children.  It's far from being the only book purportedly for
>children which addresses tough issues in an artistically satisfying
>way.

Possibly (even probably) you're right.  But I still think your
average (and even many above average) kids would be bored by _Tombs
of Atuan_.  *I* was bored by it in places.  LeGuin wrote it that way
to reflect the emotions that the characters were going through.

>I neither have nor have any current association with children of
>the appropriate age group for Wizard of Earthsea.  I know, though,
>that I've been consistently amazed at what children can grasp, and
>even find appealing.  Ten years ago, the woman I was involved with
>had a daughter, 10 years old.  She was taking on Ann McCaffrey's
>Dragon books, starting with the 'easier' ones like Dragonsinger.
>She ended up reading the first one, which is arguably the most
>'adult' of the entire series, and liking it the best of them all.
>She had an enormous number of questions about the things she didn't
>understand in that book, but proved, to me at least, that
>unilaterally deciding what children can and cannot understand is a
>very dumb move.

I agree.  However, you must admit that the Pern stories are
basically romances with dragons (instead of the Love Boat) and thus
much easier to read.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 08:59:04 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Earthsea is Juvenile?

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Possibly (even probably) you're right.  But I still think your
>average (and even many above average) kids would be bored by _Tombs
>of Atuan_.  *I* was bored by it in places.  LeGuin wrote it that
>way to reflect the emotions that the characters were going through.

I suspect it would depend on the gender (and age) of the kid.  All
three books are "coming to terms with one's self" books.  The first
uses the classic "young man coming to age" theme.  (The pronoun is
significant.)  The last uses the less common but classic "coming to
terms with mortality theme".

The _Tombs of Atuan_ is an extraordinary book in that it uses the
"young woman coming to age" theme.  I think you will find that young
women will react much more strongly than young men.  There are a
number of themes that speak directly to emotional experience and
cultural conditioning of young women.  [But not the omni-present
"sexual awakening" theme, which one might think is the only relevant
experience for young women, to judge from the majority of
literature.]

Most males (of all ages) don't understand this book and what it is
about.  Try reading it from the perspective of understanding what it
is like to grow up being a woman in our society and you might find
it quite enlightening.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 23:34:36 GMT
From: killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Earthsea is Juvenile?

All I know is what Ursula Le Guin herself said about the Earthsea
trilogy, in one of her collections (I'm not sure if it's the essays,
or a short story collection, in which she talks about Earthsea). She
definitely said it was intended to be a juvenile, she definitely
said it was one of the hardest books to write that she had ever
written BECAUSE it was a juvenile... I guess she should know, she
wrote it. I agree with the "don't underestimate children" crowd...
or at least I better, considering the amount of "adult" stuff I read
before the age of 15 (I have boxes full of books in storage, given
to me by friends of my parents over the years... which I haven't
looked at since age 15, when I discovered that there was other ways
to entertain ones self besides reading :-). As for boring... never
underestimate children! I imagine you would probably find "the
official history of World War ][" to be quite dry and boring
reading... to a 12 year old kid, it was as exciting as High Fantasy,
with a lot more action :-). After all, it has action galore, and the
Good Guys win, right?! Who cares if it's over a thousand pages!
   Remember, she had her own kids to test the stuff on :-). I
imagine that her kids were pretty extraordinary, but....

Eric Lee Green
elg@usl.CSNET
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 17:45:02 GMT
From: ciss!mmarsh@RUTGERS.EDU (M. Marsh)
Subject: Re: Earthsea is Juvenile?

The subject of Earthsea being a juvenile book brought up the subject
of whether it would be enjoyed by boys (or men) at all because it
was about the coming of age of a girl.  That reminded me of an
English professor I had in college.  He had conducted an informal
survey of all of his students on whaqt books they had read as
children.  He found that boys and girls had read the Hardy boys
books, but only girls had read the Nancy Drew books.  His conclusion
was that girls would read books regardless of the sex of the main
character, but boys would only read books about boys.  This is a
generalization, of course, but I have found it to be fairly accurate
still.

Mel Marsh
NCR Corporation

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 22:19:20 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Earthsea is Juvenile?

I wrote in a previous article that I thought _Tombs of Atuan_ was
not a juvenile book and that it was boring in places.

I have just reread _Tombs of Atuan_ and I must say that I was wrong.
(OK, I'll wait while everyone revives; I know I just violated the
First Commandment of the Net: Thou shalt not admit to error.  :-)

Anyway, The Earthsea trilogy is a juvenile including the second
book.  But yes, parts of it were boring the first time I read it,
but taking into account Richard Harter's comments, it was not boring
the second time.

Richard Harter:
>The _Tombs of Atuan_ is an extraordinary book in that it uses the
>"young woman coming to age" theme.  I think you will find that
>young women will react much more strongly than young men.
>
>Most males (of all ages) don't understand this book and what it is
>about.  Try reading it from the perspective of understanding what
>it is like to grow up being a woman in our society and you might
>find it quite enlightening.

I tried, but I'm sure I missed much of the emotional impact that a
woman would get from the book.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 17:40:05 GMT
From: cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>Great fantasy = the first two books of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast
>trilogy, *Titus Groan* and *Gormenghast*.

This is exaggeration.  Gormenghast is fascinating, yes -- the
imagery and characterizations are meticulous and generally well
executed.  But the books are damned hard to read, and diligence is
required to get you past the first 100 pages.  After reading all
three, I found that many of Peake's images stayed with me (consider,
for instance, the battle between Mr. Flay and Mr. Swelter on the
roof of the Castle at the end of _Titus Groan_) but I still found
myself wondering what the hell was the point.

Walter

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 88 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:

            Books - Elgin (2 msgs) & Friedman (2 msgs) &
                    Lupoff (2 msgs) & Moorcock (2 msgs) &
                    Petaja (2 msgs) & Saberhagen (2 msgs) &
                    Scholz & Varley

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 12:42:41 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>In addition to the books already mentioned, I very much recommend
>Suzette Hayden Elgin's Ozark Stories:
[...]
>(P.S. Has anyone else out there read them?)

Yep.  Pretty good, fun books, without the heavy-handed radical
feminist polemics which made her Native Tongue, for me, almost
unreadable.  Oh, there's feminist politics in the Ozark stories,
some of it quite pointed and sharp, but it never takes over the
stories, which are quite good.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 02:22:37 GMT
From: unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>In addition to the books already mentioned, I very much recommend
>Suzette Hayden Elgin's Ozark Stories:
>Twelve Fair Kingdoms
>The Grand Jubilee
>[another one -- the name eludes me]

And Then There'll Be Fireworks

>Yonder Comes the Other End of Time

Note that this is also a Coyote Jones novel.

>I won't say more, since it'll be more fun to read the books than to
>read this article, but they're highly enjoyable, very imaginative,
>coherent, well-thought out, wonderful fantasy books.

   I should warn whoever that while the books are well written, and
I did enjoy them, they portray men in a VERY poor light. Almost all
of the male characters are greedy, short sighted, egotistical
bastards. The only real exception was ineffectual. This started to
bother me after awhile. There were also several things left totally
unexplained, which was also bothersome (as a lot of other things
were explained).

   This is the main problem that I have with Elgin's work, it has a
very pro-feminist slant (which is fine), with normally a very
anti-male slant (which I don't like). This is true both in the Ozark
books, and in the Coyote Jones novels I have read.

Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 88 10:02:01 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: C. S. Friedman (SP??)

 I just reread "In Conquest Born", and liked it even better, if
possible, than the first time. Has this author written anything
else??

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 18:59:43 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: C. S. Friedman (SP??)

> I just reread "In Conquest Born", and liked it even better, if
>possible, than the first time. Has this author written anything
>else??

This was her first novel. There's another in the works, though.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 11:45:03 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: SPACE WAR BLUES (was Re: Gibson)

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>(Bob Gray) writes:
>> (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>>>(Oh, before anyone asks the obvious question, the author was
>>>Richard Lupoff, who is one of the best unknown science fiction
>>>writers around.)
>
>> I find this statement hard to believe, based on the quality of
>> his book "Circumpolar". It is full of characters which barely
>> qualify as two dimensional, offensive racial stereotypes and
>> various other assorted characters whose collective IQ doesn't get
>> into double figures. I rated this book as -****.
>
>Um...ever read any 40s space opera?  Those attributes you mentioned
>in reference to Lupoff's work fit them to a t.

I have read a lot of "space opera". some is good but dated, other
books are just plain bad. Circumpolar seems to be made up of the
worst features of the latter, patched together with no originality.
This does not qualify in my book as a spoof, satire or any other
type of take off of 40's "space opera".

After the last posting I checked my shelfs at home and discovered
annother of his books, "Sun's end." I must admit that this one
wasn't quite as bad. I would rate it as -**.

It started out quite well but rapidly degenerated into more racial
stereotypes wandering in a dazed way through various
pseudo-scientific cliches, until the book falls off the end of the
paper.

Two bad books (My personal opinion, note) by the same author makes
me very reluctant to waste any more money on his work.

Thanks for the recommendations from other posters anyway.  I might
see if the local library has any of them, or if I can find them
second-hand.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 87 15:45:33 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Richard Lupoff

From:   its63b!bob      (Bob Gray)
>> Lupoff, who is one of the best unknown science fiction writers
>> around.)
> I find this statement hard to believe, based on the quality of his
> book "Circumpolar". It is full of characters which barely qualify
> as two dimensional, offensive racial stereotypes and various other
> assorted characters whose collective IQ doesn't get into double
> figures. I rated this book as -****.

Well, needless to say, my opinion is my opinion, and yours is yours.
I haven't read CIRCUMPOLAR yet, to be honest. My opinion is based
mostly on SPACE WAR BLUES, SACRED LOCOMOTIVE FLIES (his "Ova Hamlet"
work compiled into a novel), and the excellent Japanese fantasy
SWORD OF THE DEMON. Some of his other work has been fairly average,
but these three I *really* liked, and some other works, such as LISA
KANE and INTO THE AETHER, I liked quite a bit.

If you thought CIRCUMPOLAR had "offensive racial stereotypes" SPACE
WAR BLUES will definitely not be your cup of tea, but to Lupoff's
credit, he does this for exaggerated effect. It floats *my* boat. I
thought the book was a scream. Most of his work is in the realm of
parody.

SWORD OF THE DEMON is simply a wonderful book. Some people have said
things to the effect that it "does for Japanese mythology what LORD
OF LIGHT did for Hindu mythology", which is really doing it an
injustice (LORD OF LIGHT is one of my favorite sf novels, but it
didn't "do for" Hindu mythology as much as it "did to").

My comment was not meant to that I thought that Lupoff ranks with
Gibson, Delaney, LeGuin, etc., etc., but that he was one of the best
*unknown* (or little-known) sf writers. He's someone whose works
more people should be aware of.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 87 12:57 EST
From: David H. Kaufman <Qux@GOLDILOCKS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Moorcock / Dancers at the End of Time

From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
>Derek Keeping asked if there was a fourth book in the Dancers at
>the End of Time series.  There was a book called _Elric at the End
>of Time_ which came out a few years ago.  I believe it is a
>collection of short stories or novellas though - and not
>necessarily part of the series.  I am not sure any of the stories
>were even set in the DatEoT universe.

The title story was.  Elric (from the _Elric_of_Melnibone_ series)
ends up at the End of Time.  (I don't remember if this is set after
his death from the previous series, or if it just "happens".)  The
inhabitants try to treat him like they do all their visitors, but
Elric goes crazy trying to interpret their actions as those of the
Chaos Lords - the only beings he has ever met in similar
circumstances. I don't remember the other stories in the book, but
it's been a while and the books are at home.

As far as I know, there are six End of Time books:
   The Hollow Lands
   An Alien Heat
   The End of All Songs
   Legends from the End of Time
   Return of the Fireclown
   Elric at the End of Time

The first three books tell the story of Jherek Carnelian.  The
stories in the last three books are set in the same milieu, although
Jherek does not appear in Legends or Fireclown.

While I'm at it, the Elric books:
   Elric of Melnibone
   Sailor on the Seas of Fate
   The Vanishing Tower
   The Weird of the White Wolf
   The Bane of the Black Sword
   Stormbringer
   [Elric at the End of Time]

... plus references to John Daker and (I think) Hawkmoon...

David H. Kaufman
MIT RLE Speech Group

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 87 08:16 EST
From: Emanuel.henr@Xerox.COM
Subject: Elric at the End Time

I have enjoyed the Elric Books.  In fact I like almost everything
Moorcock has done. BUT, I was very disappointed in Elric at the End
of Time.  Outside of the fact that Elric was in the plots, there was
none of then background or flavor.  Wasted money buying that book.

Keith J. Emanuel
Software Systems & Tools
Xerox Corp.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 87 13:04:21 MEZ
From: I0060303%DBSTU1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: re: Emil Petaja

Emil Petaja has written a book: 'The Star Mill', (1966, Ace books).
I stumbled on it in a second hand bookstore. He uses some material
from the 'Kalevala' (Finnish national epos). I really liked that
idea.  Does anyone know whether he has written something else in
that direction? Please let me know.

Klaus

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 13:35:54 GMT
From: chinet!clif@RUTGERS.EDU (Clif Flynt)
Subject: re: Emil Petaja

Petaja wrote several books on the Finnish mythos, and at least one
on the Irish/Celtic mythos.  For my money, the Finnish books are
better.  An incomplete list follows, with possibly incorrect
grouping.

  Irish:   Lord of the Green Planet.

  Kalevala (I think all of these were from that mythos)
   Saga of Lost Earths
   Seed of the Dreamers (Ace Double, _The Blind_ - Stableford)
   The Stolen Sun       (Ace Double, _The Ship From Atlantis_ - Munn)
   The Time Twister     (I'm sure this is Kalevala!)
   The Path beyond the Stars
   The Nets of Space
   Tramontane           (Ace Double, _The Wrecks of Time_ - Moorcock)

  I don't think I've seen any of these re-issued, but at least the
Ace doubles weren't in the high-priced collectors editions, but
later cheaply available editions.
  Good luck in finding them.

Clif Flynt
ihnp4!chinet!clif

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 01:28:29 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

Has anyone suggested Fred Saberhagen's Swords series?

Books in the series are:
The First Book of Swords
The Second Book of Swords
The Third Book of Swords
The First Book of Lost Swords
...and I think I heard that the Second Book of Lost Swords was to be
coming out soon.

This series draws on a varied background in mythology.  The Twelve
Swords of Power are rumored to have originated in Norse mythology,
while the Twelve gods themselves have powerful similarities to the
gods of Greek legend.  Well worth reading the first three, but the
Lost Swords book can be passed up.

Murdock

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 21:04:03 GMT
From: laszlo@sigi.colorado.edu (Laszlo Nemeth)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
>Has anyone suggested Fred Saberhagen's Swords series?

Empire of the East comes before the Swords series and it provides
some of the background history to the Book of Swords set (it is a
very good book. better than some of the swords books)

>Books in the series are:
>The First Book of Swords
>The Second Book of Swords
>The Third Book of Swords
>The First Book of Lost Swords
>...and I think I heard that the Second Book of Lost Swords was to
>be coming out soon.

It is already out in hard back. I came, I saw, I bought it.  I
didn't like it as much as TFBoLS but it was worth the hard back
price instead of waiting for it to come out in soft back.

Laszlo Nemeth
laszlo@boulder.colorado.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 21:35:45 GMT
From: mcb@tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Palimpsests/Ace Specials

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI) writes:
>> ...  While it's true that some of Carr's selections were somewhat
>> traditional science fiction (Kim Stanley Robinson's THE WILD
>> SHORE, for example), others like Shepard's GREEN EYES and Carter
>> Scholz's PALIMPSESTS were more unusual stylistic experiments.
>
> I'd like to read comments anyone has on PALIMPSESTS. I've been
> reading it slowly for some time now, stopping and reading other
> things and coming back to it. So far, it hasn't seemed to be SF at
> all, except for the "McGuffin" (weird object) in it. Maybe it will
> get more SF-like later on (I'm about halfway through it).

I just finished PALIMPSESTS; it was the only one of the Carr Ace
Specials that I hadn't read.  PALIMPSESTS, to me, is an example of
excellent writing -- utterly brilliant in places -- that just didn't
seem to hang together well as a novel. (Another Ace Special, Michael
Swanwick's IN THE DRIFT, is a second example).  One odd thing is
that PALIMPSESTS really seems to be two different stories (with two
related but different prose styles) concatenated in one novel.  I'm
trying to avoid spoilers here, but about halfway through the book
PALIMPSESTS just sort of takes off on an bizarre ballistic course
that is (to me) only tangentially related to the first part.  Yes,
it becomes "more SF-like" (I decline to define this, but I think I
know what Will means), but has much less in common with hard SF of
the Benford/Niven, etc., school than with the highly intellectual,
philosophical/analytical school of (say) Kim Stanley Robinson [e.g.,
in THE MEMORY OF WHITENESS] or Delany or LeGuin.  To say more would
verge on spoilerhood.

PALIMPSESTS is very dense prose, with many foreign-language
allusions and puns; I am not totally incompetent in Latin and
French, but all the German and Greek ones got by me.  There are a
fair number of gibes at academics and fine artists (the scenes
involving the California artist who is attempting to build a
Christo-like glacier in the middle of nowhere are particularly
amusing). I can see where an unsuspecting reader of "normal" SF
might become impatient with a novel that is filled with
philosophical speculation and little action, and where the original
plot involving archaeology and the finding of a mysterious object
has very little to do with what the novel is really about.
Nevertheless, finding, and finishing, PALIMPSESTS is well worth the
effort.

Michael C. Berch
Internet: mcb@tis.llnl.gov
UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 87 12:59 EDT
From: <MANAGER%smith.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: re: Varley's characters

>> On the track of the original discussion, the Titanides in *Titan*
>> etc. (by John Varley) seem to be a good example of exceptions to
>> species-ism. I loved the those guys. As a species, they were
>> pretty neat, but as individuals, they were more personalized than
>> most authors' humans. And Varley's humans, well...
>
>I've always been blown away by Varley's characters.  He's not
>afraid of doing really nasty things to folks you've grown to love
>in 300 pages or so...

Tell me about it.  I was not at all happy when Gaby died in
_Wizard_, but I think Varley was right to have her die.  She was
needed elsewhere, after all, and her death got Cirocco moving.

That's the kind of mixed feeling that I have about the whole Gaea
trilogy.  I think that it ended at the right time...but at the same
time I REALLY didn't want it to end because I was having so much
fun.  Cirocco Jones is my favorite character of all time, and I
suppose it's too much to hope that we'll ever see her again.

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jan 88 1038-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #12
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 7 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Clarke (8 msgs) & Dick &
                          McCaffrey (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 16:50:15 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay C. Smith)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

rck@ihuxv.ATT.COM (R. C. Kukuk) writes:
>The interior shots of the centrifuge...  ...make it too large to
>fit...within the sphere.  I recall...that the centrifuge had a
>diameter of about 50 feet.  But exterior views...give the sphere a
>diameter of around 65 to 70 feet.  If you allow for the depth of
>the flight deck based on the window placement, and the size of the
>pod deck based on the pod door placement, there doesn't appear to
>be any volume left for the cent- rifuge.

It does appear that way, doesn't it?  According to Clarke's book
_2001_, the sphere is 40 feet in diameter and the centrifuge is 35
feet in diameter, making an even tighter squeeze.

In Jerome Agel's _The Making of Kubrick's '2001'_ the Discovery is
described as being 700 feet long.  The model was 54 feet long with a
6-foot diameter command module "ball".  This would give the sphere a
78-foot diameter in real scale.  But given that the full-size pod
mock-up was 6 feet in diameter, the sphere certainly doesn't look
that big.  And the pod model used with the ship model was 13 inches
diam., making it 14 feet diam.  using the 54/700 scale.  The pod's
scale, though, would make the sphere 33 feet diam., which is too
small.  The book also describes the ferris wheel exterior of the
centrifuge as being 38 feet in diameter, with the interior 10 feet
wide.  This leads one to think that either the reporting was not
entirely accurate, or there was not much attention paid to correct
scale in the film.

One factor in all this is Stanley Kubrick's use of wide-angle lenses
in many of the interior shots of the Discovery.  This made it appear
larger than it actually was.

Jay C. Smith
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 10:31:36 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-....

merlyn@starfire.UUCP (Brian Westley) writes:
>The spinning spaceship didn't bother me; Clarke explained it
>reasonably.  However, the movie version SUCKED EGGS.

You mean the film was supposed to be about the book?

The director hadn't even seen the original 2001, that was quite
obvious from the film.

I mean, who needs a nuclear powered rocket like discovery when you
have artificial gravity you can switch on and off whenever you want.

I hope someone does make the film of the book one day.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 16:52:45 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: 2001, 2010

tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes:
>The article I read ( book review in the Los Angeles Times ) said
>that Clarke will not finish 20,001 until Galileo (sp?) reaches
>Jupiter.  He wants to include some information about Jupiter that
>will not be known until then, and doesn't want to guess.

SPOILER WARNING. about 2010

But we already know that Jupiter isn't there at the end of 2010. It
has been changed into Lucifer. The moons are being heated up and
made habitable. By 20,001 there would be nothing recognisable left
from what is there today.

The only possible reason for delay I can think of is that he wants
to put the actual launch date in the book.

But then, (without some major miracle:->), Discovery isn't going to
be there in 2001.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 01:00:53 GMT
From: c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-.... (minor 2010
Subject: spoiler)

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
>I mean, who needs a nuclear powered rocket like Discovery when you
>have artificial gravity you can switch on and off whenever you
>want.

   Say what?  There was no artificial gravity in either the book or
the movie of either 2001 or 2010; there were large centrifuges on
the outside of the Russian ship and on the inside of Discovery (and
presumably flywheels of some sort to store the rotational momentum
when the centrifuges weren't spinning).
   Perhaps I misunderstood your posting; were you talking about 2061
perhaps?  I haven't read it.  Or were you referring to the scenes of
people "walking" in weightless areas of the Russian ship in 2010?
They were supposed to be using velcro, not artificial gravity.

   As long as I'm on the topic of scientific accuracy in the 20xx
movies, lemme just vent my frustrations at whoever directed 2010 for
ignoring scientific accuracy in other departments: One of many, many
things I like about 2001 is the fact that it may be the only movie
in which rocket engines in outer space don't rumble dramatically or
shoot visible flame.  Why, oh why, couldn't 2010 have done the same?


Evan A.C. Hunt
ssyx!c2h5oh@ucscc.BITNET
...ucbvax!ssyx!c2h5oh

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 01:48:00 GMT
From: frog!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John Woods)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-.... (minor 2010
Subject: spoiler)

c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt) writes:
>       As long as I'm on the topic of scientific accuracy in the
> 20xx movies, lemme just vent my frustrations at whoever directed
> 2010 for ignoring scientific accuracy in other departments: One of
> many, many things I like about 2001 is the fact that it may be the
> only movie in which rocket engines in outer space don't rumble
> dramatically or shoot visible flame.  Why, oh why, couldn't 2010
> have done the same?

I don't quite recall seeing big tongues of flame in 2010 (I guess
I'll have to go home and watch it 8 more times tonight), but if you
watch Space Shuttle footage, you *will* see the engines come on
(after all, hot gas glows).  Of course, it isn't anywhere near as
impressive as what you normally see in movies.  As far as the sound
effects go, I was willing to forgive them for doing sound for
Discovery's engines -- very impressive, even if it was wrong (my
advice to people going to see the movie was: "Don't sit in the last
row.  At one point in the movie, everyone will move back one row."
(BOOM!)).

My favorite special-effects gripe was how poorly they handled
zero-gravity.  Velcro doesn't make for absolutely normal walking,
yet the actors seem not to have had any idea of what zero-gravity
ought to be like.  Specifically, the scene where Floyd tells the
commander of the Russian ship that they have to leave: it looks for
all the world like they are in a 1G field until Floyd hangs the pens
on the wires (what, no air currents to make pens drift?  Must be
awful stuffy in there...).

With luck, 2061 won't be filmed until they can do it in ORBIT and
get it right.

John Woods
Charles River Data Systems
Framingham MA
(617) 626-1101
...!decvax!frog!john
...!mit-eddie!jfw
jfw@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 08:28:51 GMT
From: leech@hayes.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-.... (minor 2010
Subject: spoiler)

john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) writes:
>With luck, 2061 won't be filmed until they can do it in ORBIT and
>get it right.

   Thereby giving the option of having the film made on a Soviet
set, or having the distinction of coming out *after* its title year.
Unless NASA gets it act together and decides it actually is willing
to fly again someday.

Jon Leech
leech@cs.unc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 16:09:34 GMT
From: blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-.... (minor 2010
Subject: spoiler)

c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt) writes:
>bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
>>I mean, who needs a nuclear powered rocket like discovery when you
>>have artificial gravity you can switch on and off whenever you
>>want.
>   Say what?  There was no artificial gravity in either the book or
>the movie of either 2001 or 2010; there were large centrifuges on
>the outside of the Russian ship and on the inside of Discovery (and
>presumably flywheels of some sort to store the rotational momentum
>when the centrifuges weren't spinning).

I believe that the original poster was refering to something that
bothered me too at the time; namely, that the application of the
centrifuge in the movie was totally inconsistent.  The gravity in
the scenes aboard the Russian ship only effected certain objects,
and come and went at random. There was the obligatory "floating
object, thus establishing space" scene, but all the rest of the
objects and the crew fell and walked normally.  It's been too long,
so I can't recite chapter and verse, but I do remember seeing Floyd
and the crew walking and thinking to myself, "ah, this is in the
rotating section", and then Floyd lets something float in air.

I also remember something about their not stopping the rotation once
when I thought that they should, but I may be wrong.

Brian Utterback
Cray Research Inc.
One Tara Blvd. #301
Nashua NH. 03062
(603) 888-3083
UUCP:{ihnp4!cray,sun!tundra}!hall!blu
ARPA:blu%hall.cray.com@umn-uc.arpa
blu%hall.cray.com@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 01:49:15 GMT
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Isaiah Kamens)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-.... (minor 2010
Subject: spoiler)

john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) writes:
>to have had any idea of what zero-gravity ought to be like.
>Specifically, the scene where Floyd tells the commander of the
>Russian ship that they have to leave: it looks for all the world
>like they are in a 1G field until Floyd hangs the pens on the wires
>(what, no air currents to make pens drift?  Must be awful stuffy in
>there...).

Just for the sake of technical accuracy, they did not use wires to
film that scene.  There was a very well-cleaned glass plate right
through the room, and the pens, which were sticky, were stuck to the
plate.  I saw a documentary about the filming of the film, and they
made a big deal about this scene, because they had to reshoot it
MANY TIMES because the pens kept on falling down, and when they did
finally get them to stick, the actors would crack up out of
amazement and blow the scene.

Jonathan I. Kamens
MIT '91
jik@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 17:02:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Dicked ending of _The Man in the Hi

I, too, was at first disappointed by the ending of The Man in the
High Castle. But now I think it's a more effective ending than
having things dissolve into chaos. Isn't this ending, where nothing
really happened, more disturbing to you as a reader, because you're
left without an expected resolution of some sort in a reality you're
not happy with?

Compare this with the ending of Ubik, for instance. (I expect some
heated argument on this.) I like Ubik a lot, except for the ending.
Actually I like all the new twists implied by the ending, but didn't
like the way it was executed. Having it (the money with Joe Chip's
face on it) pop up on the last page made it seem contrived. Dick
might have set it up more subtly and skillfully.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Dec 87 15:04:35 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Pern

Someone recently posted some of the Pern books, ignoring the others.
I'll try to put them in chronological order with publishing order in
()s.

MORETA, DRAGONLADY OF PERN (7)
   (halfway through starts) NERILKA'S STORY (8)

DRAGONQUEST  (1)
DRAGONFLIGHT (2)
   (interleaved) DRAGONSONG (4)
DRAGONSINGER (5)
DRAGONDRUMS  (6)
THE WHITE DRAGON (3)

Dquest, flight, and white are THE DRAGONRIDERS OF PERN.  Dsong,
singer, and drums are THE HARPER HALL OF PERN.

(Actually, I'm making a big assumption about the order of the two
trilogies-- did I get it right?)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 87 22:47:33 GMT
From: killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Pern

DRAGONFLIGHT was published first, then DRAGONQUEST. The rest were
listed in proper order.

Bill Wisner
billw@killer.UUCP
..{codas,cuae2,ihnp4}!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 22:10:00 GMT
From: wisner@oberon.lcs.mit.edu (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Dragonriders is Romance? (was Re: Earthsea is Juvenile?)

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>I agree.  However, you must admit that the Pern stories are
>basically romances with dragons (instead of the Love Boat) and thus
>much easier to read.

Hmm. I beg to differ.

The romance is definitely there. The dragons are definitely there.
The two definitely intermingle. But the romance is used mainly in
characterization, while the story itself (in the Dragonriders
trilogy, that is) is that of a world pulling itself out of a dark
age, rediscovering myriad things that were lost eons ago. The
Harperhall books are a young-woman-coming-of-age story.  Didn't I
just read an article about the Tombs of Atuan saying something
similar? Moreta.. story of a brave, heroic woman dying stupidly.
Yes, again, there's romance. Nerilka's Story: another young woman
coming of age, more romance.

All generalizations are bad things, Dan.. (hey, wait a minute--)

bill

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 23:47:05 GMT
From: killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Dragonriders is Romance? (was Re: Earthsea is Juvenile?)

wisner@oberon.LCS.MIT.EDU (Bill Wisner) says:
>dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>I agree.  However, you must admit that the Pern stories are
>>basically romances with dragons (instead of the Love Boat) and
>>thus much easier to read.
> Hmm. I beg to differ.  The romance is definitely there. The
> dragons are definitely there. The two definitely intermingle. But
> the romance is used mainly in characterization,

Can I beg to differ, too?

I read the first trilogy, the "Dragonriders of Pern" trilogy. It was
decent.  I've read several of her other books, including one from
the "Harperhall" series, and found them to beset by
"romance-writer's syndrome"... e.g. mostly some young broad falling
in love with every sexy hunk that comes along, and some gratuitous
action, violence, and romance to make things excited for the bank
tellers and middle-aged housewives who read this sort of thing :-}
(good example is "Crystal Singer"). Inoffensive, but not my cup of
cake. I would recommend "Dragonriders of Pern", but the rest, you
can keep'em.

Eric Lee Green
elg@usl.CSNET
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 06 January 88 23:53 EST
From: UT6Y%CORNELLA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Anne McCaffery...

Hey, can anyone add to this party?

Assuming we can, I thought I'd just clear something up, for the
record.  The proper chronological order (historical, not publishing)
for Anne McC's Dragon books is thusly:

Moreta:Dragonlady of Pern and Nerilka's Story (they're concurrent)
DragonFlight
DragonQuest
The Harper Hall books
The White Dragon

Also, she's supposedly coming out with another DragonRiders book
soon....  Let's hope so.

UT6Y@CORNELLA.BITNET
@vax5.cornell.ccs.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Donaldson (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 87 00:33:57 GMT
From: c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

   To everybody who dislikes the Covenant series soley because
Thomas Covenant is unsympathetic at best, and contemptible at
worst-- please look up the word "antihero."  That's what Covenant
is--you aren't supposed to like the guy.  At least not at first.
Though it doesn't do any harm to pity him, which is incidentally
another theme of the series.

   I'm not crazy about the Covenant series either, but that's not
because I don't like T.C., it's because the series is extremely
derivative and not terribly well written--I mean, you can _taste_
the thesaurus on Donaldson's desk (uh, lessee, another word for
"white"-- ah, here it is!  "argent!").  I like the series okay, it's
interesting and all that, but it's not great.

Evan A.C. Hunt
c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu
ssyx!c2h5oh@ucscc.BITNET
...ucbvax!ssyx!c2h5oh

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 19:11:43 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt) writes:
>I'm not crazy about the Covenant series either, but that's not
>because I don't like T.C., it's because the series is extremely
>derivative and not terribly well written--I mean, you can _taste_
>the thesaurus on Donaldson's desk (uh, lessee, another word for
>"white"-- ah, here it is!  "argent!").  I like the series okay,
>it's interesting and all that, but it's not great.

Let me agree with Evan.  I never finished the Covenant series for
just these reasons: the incidents seemed depressingly familiar and
unoriginal, and the prose was truly bad.  The hypothesis that
Donaldson uses a thesaurus is a plausible one; he commits lots of
blunders of the "'argent' is a posh word for 'white'" variety,
leading one to suspect he doesn't accurately know the meanings of
these fancy words.  But then, I get the same impression reading
Wolfe, except the words are fancier.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 08:59:52 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu.UUCP (Robert Firth) writes:
>The hypothesis that Donaldson uses a thesaurus is a plausible one;
>he commits lots of blunders of the "'argent' is a posh word for
>'white'" variety, leading one to suspect he doesn't accurately know
>the meanings of these fancy words.  But then, I get the same
>impression reading Wolfe, except the words are fancier.

Read "The Castle of the Otter".  Wolfe knows EXACTLY what all of
those words means, and chose each one of them for good and
sufficient reason.  Comparing Wolfe and Donaldson?  My mind reels
:-)

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 09:15:31 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

It's noticable that not only is Terisa (in _The Mirror of Her
Dreams_) a far more sympathetic character than any of Donaldson's
hero(in)es so far but also the book seems to me to be much better
written.

It's certainly far more readable. There's less sense of strain, of
striving for effect, in the writing.

Unless Donaldson was being unbelievably subtle in the TC books (make
the style annoying so you'll be annoyed with the characters) I can
only conclude that he's been listening to criticism.

TMOHD is still overwritten and there's still too much emphasis on
the deficiencies of Terisa but the difference is marked between this
and the earlier books.

Peter Kendell
pete@tcom.stc.co.uk
...{uunet!}mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 09 January 88 12:38 EST
From: UT6Y%CORNELLA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Thomas Covenant

Will someone puh-leez tell me why so many people seem to think that
a character has to be sympathetic to make a decent novel?  I found
the fact that Thomas Covenant was an unmitigated bastard the most
refreshing treatment of the protagonist I've ever read.

JCONNORS@UVMVM/John Connors said that he liked Hile Troy (who, by
the way wound up in The Land by accident -- Atiaran was using what
little knowledge she had to try to bring TC back, and instead, wound
up A] causing a fire in Hile Troy's apt that came through with him,
burning Atiaran to death and B] bringing HT into the land instead of
TC) better than TC.  I felt the reverse.  I thought HT was an even
more unsympathetic bastard than TC was, because HT, who HAD been
debilitated by his blindness, could not seem to empathize in the
least with TC.

I find something uniquely attractive in a protagonist like TC, who
DOESN'T simply adjust to his surrounding and go off trying to blast
the antagonist(s) away.  Furthermore, Donaldson did something in the
TC books that very few people manage properly: combining an internal
antagonist -- the part of Covenant that wants nothing to do with the
Land -- with several external antagonists -- Lord Foul, the White
Gold, the Land itself -- against TC.  It's nice to know that all
prose needn't follow the same patterns of nice protagonist vs. nasty
antagonist.

Michael Scott Shappe
Bitnet: UT6Y@CORNELLA
Internet : UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 88 14:19:56 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: TC

I am in the middle of a digest full of TC put-downs.  As far as I
can tell, the people who don't like him decided that from the first
book.  Does anyone who's read the full series _still_ dislike him?
By the second series, 10 years after the first, he is a much more
sympathetic character.

Also, do you all agree that when Convenant said that Foul was the
externalization of the evil inside us, that that was Donaldson's
official explanation? I don't really like it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 88  21:33:41 EST
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston)
Subject: Thomas Covenant

I agree with Michael Farren that Thomas Covenant is a repulsive
book.  I tried to read it back in college, and gave up in Chapter
Six of the first book, about the point where Covenant decides to
rape a teenage girl he doesn't think exists.

In fact, this particular scene sickened me so much I've never read
anything else by Donaldson, and probably never will.  You see, two
very dear friends of mine have been raped, and I am not even
slightly objective about it.  That any author, for any reason, could
have the protagonist of a book, the person we're supposed to
identify with and through whose eyes we observe the action,
gratuitously rape a child disgusts me.  I don't care if Covenant is
supposed to be bitter and sick at heart because of his disease.  I
don't care if he's disoriented because of his sudden appearance in
the land.  I don't care if he's the salvation of 50 million starving
peasants and kills the unspeakable people of Planet Ploor.  I don't
even care if the book is written by the best author since
Shakespeare (which Donaldson emphatically is not).  I cannot and
will not read something where the protagonist is so sick as to rape
a teenage girl.

Rape is an evil, brutal, violent act.  Any character in a book who
rapes is not a hero, even if he defeats the Embodiment of Evil and
wields the Dingus of Ultimate Good.  There is no excuse for rape,
none at all.  And given the choice, I won't waste two hours of my
life and $4 of my money on a book where the hero commits such an
evil act.  You see, I can't read a scene like that through
Covenant's eyes the way Donaldson asks me to do in the first
Covenant book.  I can't, because I'm a woman and I keep thinking of
how terrified the victim is and how much it must hurt her and how
defiled she feels when this stranger rips into her.  I can't see a
character who does that as anything but evil, no matter what he
does.  And because of that, I can't read Donaldson.  No matter how
well he treats his female characters in later books, no matter how
good a writer he is, I can't forget that in his first book he has
the man I'm supposed to identify with rape a girl not much younger
than I was when I read it, and rape her for no reason except that
his bitch wife left because of his leprosy.  I can't forget.

One thing: please don't send flaming replies to me, or tell me I'm
missing some good books in Donaldson's later works.  I'm not trying
to change anybody's mind about Donaldson, or Covenant, or anything
else.  I'm just saying why I hate those books, and that character.
Perhaps no else on the net feels the same way, or hates Covenant for
the same reason.  But I do.  And I will never read anything by
Stephen Donaldson.  I have much better ways to waste my time than
reading books by an author who devoted six books to a rapist.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 88 08:50:08 EST
From: Lappin_J@DUR08.CEO.DG.COM
Subject: thomas covenant series

In regards to fantasy books, I must agree that the Thomas Covenant
series is beyond belief. He spends 90% of his time wallowing in self
pity, and repeating either "Hellfire" or "Leper outcast unclean".
Argggh what a waste to place this character in as fantastic a
setting as the Land. I could not recommend this series, even
half-heartedly.

Jim Lappin Jr.
Data General, Durham NH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 88 10:53:50 EST
From: "Hugh A. Huntzinger" (CCL-S) <huntzing@ARDEC.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  fantasy books



laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet) writes:
>BUT!  (You could hear that coming, couldn't you? :-)
>I must disagree on the recommendation of the Thomas Covenant
>series.  Every other book...EXCEPT the Thomas Covenant books.  I
>made it halfway through the first one and threw it across the room
>in disgust.  NEVER have I seen....  ...Thomas was a...a**hole....

Me?  I found TC my sophomore year in the college bookstore, three
years after my high school English teacher had recommended it.  I
enjoyed it.  I have since recommended the series to friends.  I now
have experience (read "sometimes blind-sided") that one of the
following things happens:

   1 They throw it down in disgust during the first book, *hating*
     it.
   2 They get thru the first book & into the second & they *love*
     it.

I now recommend the book, saying, "This is good, but do yourself
(and me) a favor and FINISH the first book before you make
judgement.  The main character IS A CLASSIC ANTI-HERO who you're
going to hate!"

FLAME ON:

Is there anyone out there who has at least has FINISHED the first
book and hates it? <<<To you, thank you for your *informed*
judgement!>>>

FLAME OFF.

(read the above as "AARRGGH!  I've gone thru this argument before!")

It helps if the reader recognizes the form of an anti-hero (and
accepts it!).  By design, the character is supposed to be a creep
(or whatever) that you either hate or feel pity for.  A close friend
of mine who died of thyroid cancer was VERY attached to Thomas
Covenant.  He had similar conditions to TC's Leprosy: impotency
(post-Kemo-therapy), a terminal prognocis, susceptibility to serious
injury and a feeling of frustration & helplessness.  I thank Rod for
introducing me to Fantasy & SF.

>Well, I'll stop the diatribe now.  I just couldn't let a posting go
>past that grouped the excellent and peerless Amber series with the
>Thomas Covenant series.  (This doesn't mean I think no one should
>read the TC series, incidentally.  Just get it from the library and
>try it before investing $$$).

Yes, by all means, beg, borrow or steal rather than buy.  BUT this
applies to ALL books!  It saves you money so you can get more (new)
books!

Other than saying that Amber and Covenant should be grouped
together, I'll withhold my *personal* opinion of which books I
prefer & in what order.  Personally, I "couldn't let a posting go
by" that knocked a good series by someone who hasn't read a
significant portion of it.

The bottom line is what books are worthwhile and recommendable.  I
do recommend Covenant, but I've learned to temper it as mentioned
above.

BTW, has anyone yet recommended Moorcock's Elric?

------------------------------

From: apollo!nelson_p@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: sneaky bookselling
Date: 7 Jan 88 16:40:00 GMT

I'm new to the group so pardon me if this has come up before.

Ballantine/Del Rey published a book called 'Mirror of Her Dreams', a
novel in which a young woman finds herself thrust into a fantasy
world of adventure, magic and intrigue.  I bought it as a paperback
and found it to be a gripping story.  At the end of the book
however, literally every detail of the plot remained completely
hanging and we are left at a major climax in the story.  There is a
little line on the last page saying that the story will be concluded
in a sequel called 'A Man Rides Through'.  It turns out that 'A Man
Rides Through' is only available in hardcover at $20 (the paperback
was $4.95).  There was no indication on the cover of 'Mirror..'
that this was part 1 of 2 or any such thing.

At this point I have the choice of spending $20 to find out how
things end or waiting a year for the paperback and probably
forgetting the details of 'Mirror...' or at least having it lose
it's impact.

My experience is that most books that have sequels either tell you
so up front ( the 'Thomas Covenant' books by the same author all do)
*or* they end each book at a reasonable point in the plot (such as
with 'Dune') so if you choose not to buy the sequel you don't feel
like you've wasted your time and money.  I feel like I've been
manipulated by the publisher and I don't like it.  My questions:

How common is this practice?

Is there anything the book buyer can do to protect himself against
it?

Peter Nelson

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 22:40:37 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: TC

>I am in the middle of a digest full of TC put-downs.  As far as I
>can tell, the people who don't like him decided that from the first
>book.  Does anyone who's read the full series _still_ dislike him?
>By the second series, 10 years after the first, he is a much more
>sympathetic character.

Can I ask a silly question? Why would anyone who hated the first
book continue on through the entire series? There are lots of good
books out there -- I don't see why I should waste my time plowing
through things I don't like.

In my experience, there's only been a single case of tossing a
series in the first book where I went back and enjoyed the series --
The Pleistocene Exile series by Julian May, which I tossed at page
150, and picked up only after a good friend that I trust forced me
back into it.

Irregardless of whether Thomas Covenant is Good or Bad, why should I
put time into fighting it when I could put that same time into Gene
Wolfe of Melissa Scott -- both authors I happen to enjoy reading? I
don't have the time to waste pushing through things I don't care
about.

------------------------------

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Subject:      SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #14
Apparently-To: <SF-LOVERS@ELBERETH.RUTGERS.EDU>

*** EOOH ***
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 88 09:53:13 EST
From: Saul Jaffe <SF-Lovers-Request@aramis.rutgers.edu>
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Sender: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject:      SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #14
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SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:

                Books - Cadigan & Chalker (8 msgs) &
                        Tolkien (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 11:19:00 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu
Subject: Pat Cadigan story

   How many of you read the Pat Cadigan story in the January issue
of Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine, and found it a real let-down?  I
can't recall the title right now, but it was about a young woman
returning home from college, looking for her junkie brother who'd
been thrown out of the house.

(If you haven't read the story, be forewarned: major spoilers via
plot discussion to follow!)

   I thought the first half of the story was excellent.  The
characters are very real, the prose is evocative, the situation very
interesting (if you aren't the sort of person who is bothered by
stories where the SF or fantasy element pops up at the end--like Kim
Stanley Robinson's "Black Air", or the Joanna Russ short story
published a few years back--sorry, I forget the name again--about a
Viking raid on a nunnery).

   The first flaw I that bothered me was the scene where the addicts
are driving a car and shooting up at the same time.  I have never
heard of junkies going cruising--it would seem like a highly
dangerous pasttime, particularly when the heroin is as strong as
described in the story.  This seems just too unrealistic.  However,
the scene with the police officer staring at them and driving off is
nice--we know something's wrong in this town.  But to get back to
the junkies, did anyone else find the descriptions of shooting up a
little cliched, as if the author didn't really know anything about
what junkies are really like?  Compare Cadigan's junkies with
William Burrough's junkies (_Junkie_ or _Naked Lunch_; sorry to
bring a mainstream book into discussion here, diehard SF fans :-) ),
and I think you'll agree that Cadigan's junkies seem to be cardboard
TV/movie stereotypical junkies.  Now I don't know much about junkie
culture myself, other than my Burroughs readings and some Hunter
Thompson, so maybe these *were* realistic depictions; but, dammit,
if they were, they didn't *seem* realistic (a classic literary
problem--real life situations sounding unrealistic in a literary
context).

   But I could have lived with this.  Here's my big gripe: What the
hell kind of creatures were the junkie vampires?  They seem too
unbelievable to me.  Here's a bunch of reasons why:

   1.  What kind of creature has a stinger which is filled with an
externally-manufactured substance to be injected into another
animal/being?  In the story, the vampire fills her stinger with
heroin, and "shoots up" the junkie.  How could such a creature
evolve?  Every life-form with a stinger that I can think of
manufactures its own toxin.  If anyone can think of an exception to
this, let me know.  It seems that if a vampire were to evolve, it
would either manufacture its own paralytic agent to be injected, or
else, as with traditional vampires, it wouldn't need one at all.

   2.  Where do they get the money?  None of them seemed to have any
productive jobs, as far as I could tell.  Did they peddle dope?  It
sure looked like they were *giving* it away in the story.  No profit
there.  So where did the bucks come from to pay for the fancy car
and pad?

   3.  The protagonist's brother is turned into one of the vampires
( he refuses to kill his sister, and the original vampire hints that
he made some kind of a bargain when he became a vampire).  How did
this happen?  The vampires in this story, as I see it, can be one of
three things: aliens, mutated human beings, or conscientiously
altered human beings (or aliens, for that matter).  Now assuming
they are natural biological organisms, how could they turn the
brother into one of them ? The old "if a vampire bites you, you turn
into one too" causality doesn't seem to apply to this story, as the
junkies die when the vampire sucks their blood.  Let's pretend the
vampires have some sort of catalyst that can alter human
biochemistry, and turn a normal human into one of them.  How could
such a creature evolve--a life-form very close to a human being,
which has the power to turn the human being into a creature like
itself.  It seems pretty impossible above the cellular level (like
what viruses do).  And if they can somehow influence body chemistry
to such an extent, does this mean that any animal they bit and
altered (or however they alter the creature) could turn into a
human-looking vampire?  What would happen if they did it to a dog or
cat?  Or to an ape?
   Let's return to altering the brother.  Not only does he have to
grow a stinger, but his entire internal chemistry has to change to
allow him to digest blood laden with high doses of heroin (if he is
truly like the other vampires).  Remember, the female vampire drinks
the blood of two strung-out hop-heads, and is not slowed down one
bit--the poor junkies were already full of potent heroin--it knocked
them out in a matter of seconds when they shot up in the car;
obviously, the vampire's body processes heroin in a different
manner.  But if this is the case, why is it necessary to inject a
mouthful into the victim?  Why not just swallow it, and kill him
anyways?  The junkies were helpless enough as they were--they didn't
need more smack to sedate them.
   And it just doesn't make any evolutionary sense for the vampires
to create more of their own kind by some sort of chemical
transformation, instead of simply reproducing among themselves.

   4.  Assuming that the vampires are a result of some conscious
scientific manipulation or operation--then why make them immune to
heroin?  Why give them the hollow stinger?  Why not give them the
ability to manufacture their own toxin?  Why not give them fangs
instead of a stinger?

   5.  How did the police in the town fit into the story, in
retrospect?  They ignored the junkies shooting up.  Did the vampires
have them on the take?  (Again, where do vampires get money?)  Were
the police vampires themselves?  If so, then why limit the killings
to junkies?  Why not go whole hog, and start preying on healthier
human beings?  Or if they *need* to prey on weakened victims, why
not prey on any sick folks, then?

   All of these problems were unanswered, and they strike me as
important enough problems, given Cadigan's presentation of the story
as a realistic situation.  She has handled stories about things
passing themselves off as humans very well in the past ("Angel"
comes to mind); this story stuck me as leaving too many knots
unraveled.

   I got the impression that this could be the first of several
stories (perhaps the beginning of a novel); the protagonist states
at the end of the story that she knows what she wants to be now--it
seems likely that she'll be some sort of vampire nemesis.  If this
is the case, Pat Cadigan has a lot of explaining to do, particularly
in respect to the questions posed above.

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 19:06:04 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker

> I think "Web of the Chozen" is the only single-volume Chalker I've
> seen!  He's into epics.

Sorry, but Jack has written quite a few single-volumes. One the
comes to mind is _May the Devil Drag you Under_. I know there are
others.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 19:20:55 GMT
From: cg-atla!duane@RUTGERS.EDU (Andrew Duane X5993)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker

DREDICK@G.BBN.COM writes:
>Sorry, but Jack has written quite a few single-volumes. One the
>comes to mind is _May the Devil Drag you Under_. I know there are
>others.

That is: "The Devil Will Drag You Under", and is one of his better
works. Chalker has written _many_ single volume books, and I feel
that all of them are superior to his "epic sagas".  Some that come
to mind (besides the two above) are:
   ... well, I cannot think of any right now (my books are at home,
and I'm at work). I will try to get the list tonight.

Andrew L. Duane
w:(617)-658-5600 X5993
h:(617)-475-9188
Compugraphic Corp.
200 Ballardvale St.
Wilmington, Mass. 01887
Mail Stop 200II-3-5S
decvax!cg-atla!duane

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 87 19:59:50 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker

>> I think "Web of the Chozen" is the only single-volume Chalker
>> I've seen!  He's into epics.
> Sorry, but Jack has written quite a few single-volumes. One the
> comes to mind is _May the Devil Drag you Under_. I know there are
> others.

"The Jungle of Stars" (?) (SF)
"Identity Matrix" (SF)
"The Informal Biography of Scrooge McDuck"
   -- I've been looking for this one for over 4 years.
"Dancers in the Afterglow" (SF)

And, to correct the original (>>) posting, "Soul Rider" is NOT
Fantasy -- it's (soft) Science Fiction masquerading as Fantasy.
Read voulume 4 and the "prequel" (can't recall its name) of the
series to get a better feel for the SF nature of the rest of the
books.

Also, "Four Lords of the Diamond" and "Lords of Darkness" (or
whatever that new "Ring" series is called) are (soft) SF.  So, I
disagree with the (>>) poster about Chalker being primarily a
Fantasy writer.

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 12:35:57 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Books

kasper@grok.DEC.COM (Beverly Kasper) writes:
>Another author to look for is Jack Chalker.

I agree, but only in the same sense as one would look out for
falling rocks.  Chalker's books are, by and large, the same, with
the same stale plot elements, and the same sub-adolescent hangups.
As an example - almost every Chalker book has, as an integral
element, transformation of a human being.  Every time a
transformation is made, if the transformed person ends up as a
female, she will have huge breasts.  If the transformed person ends
up as a male, he will have a gigantic penis.  Every time.  Even if
the transformation is into an animal!

I got very tired of Chalker very quickly.  While he has original and
interesting ideas, the ideas get submerged in the sewage very early
on.  Not recommended.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 88 17:57:51 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker

oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>>> I think "Web of the Chozen" is the only single-volume Chalker
>>> I've seen!  He's into epics.
>> Sorry, but Jack has written quite a few single-volumes. One the
>> comes to mind is _May the Devil Drag you Under_. I know there are
>> others.
>"The Informal Biography of Scrooge McDuck"
>   -- I've been looking for this one for over 4 years.

I asked him about this one (it was listed as an "other work" in the
hardback of "The Devil's Voyage"), and he said it is very hard to
find - but that you might want to try comic book stores which carry
old stuff. Han't found it out here yet.

>And, to correct the original (>>) posting, "Soul Rider" is NOT
>Fantasy -- it's (soft) Science Fiction masquerading as Fantasy.
>Read voulume 4 and the "prequel" (can't recall its name) of the
>series to get a better feel for the SF nature of the rest of the
>books.

Actually, it's fantasy masquerading as science fiction. Or so saith
Chalker.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 21:49:27 GMT
From: diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Fantasy Books (Jack Chalker)

Is there a sequel to "And the Devil will drag you under"? It's one
of my favorite Chalkers, but I doubt he could pull off a sequel.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 20:40:06 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>>"Soul Rider" is NOT Fantasy -- it's (soft) Science Fiction
>>masquerading as Fantasy.
>Actually, it's fantasy masquerading as science fiction. Or so saith
>Chalker.

Huh...  I guess that makes sense -- super-intelligent, god-like
computers and their non-corporeal "demon"-agents are a techno-babble
justification for irrational and impossible instead of magic-mystic
mumbo-jumbo.  But then, how does one draw the line between soft SF
and fantasy?

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 22:03:00 GMT
From: inmet!justin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker

duane@cg-atla.UUCP writes:
>>Sorry, but Jack has written quite a few single-volumes. One the
>>comes to mind is _May the Devil Drag you Under_. I know there are
>>others.
>That is: "The Devil Will Drag You Under",

Actually, it's "And the Devil Will Drag You Under". (Well, if you're
going to be picky, be *accurately* picky...:-)

Justin du Coeur

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 04:54:16 GMT
From: derek@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Derek J. LeLash)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

tegarvin@uokmax.UUCP () writes:
>OR776@dbnuor1.BITNET (Carsten Zimmer) writes:
>>There exists a serial edited by Christopher Tolkien with the main
>>title "History of Middle-Earth" consisting of at least 4 books:
>
>>   1)  Book of Lost Tales, Part One
>>   2)  Book of Lost Tales, Part Two
>>   3)  The Lays of Beleriand
>>   4)  The Shaping of Middle-Earth
>
>>Is the fourth book published now and if so, where can I get it?

I assume you mean the fifth book, _The Lost Road and other
writings_, which is indeed out in hardcover. The title page of this
volume, as is the custom, gives the title of the next volume, in
preparation; this time, it appears to be one focused on Third Age
events, a precursor volume to Lord Of The Rings.

While we're on the subject of the History of Middle-Earth, I would
like to know if there are some hard-core fans who have read and
assimilated the whole series who would like to share their
impressions. I am trying to put together an independent reading
course for next term here at Dartmouth based on these books, and
would like to know what other devotees have gotten out of them.
Thanks,

Derek LeLash
Derek.LeLash@Dartmouth.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 17:21:09 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Tolkien

derek@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Derek J. LeLash) writes:
>While we're on the subject of the History of Middle-Earth, I would
>like to know if there are some hard-core fans who have read and
>assimilated the whole series who would like to share their
>impressions. I am trying to put together an independent reading
>course for next term here at Dartmouth based on these books, and
>would like to know what other devotees have gotten out of them.

From a part-time reader's point of view (meaning I don't read much,
but when I do...!) I think Tolkien's planning is probably
unsurpassed.  There is so much detail in his history that I would
not be surprised if he had the whole history of Middle-Earth planned
out LONG before he wrote any of it.  I think it is interesting to
read so many of the historical referrences that are made in the
books and not know exactly what they mean.  It's like listening to a
history professor talk about some obscure battle that no one ever
heard of.  That may sound like it detracts from the stories, but it
really shows the detail that Tolkien put into his work.  I have yet
to read anything that develops its characters so well, yet still
leaves some mystery about them.  I find the _Rings_ books to be
better than anything I have read to date (with the possible
exception of some H.G. Wells books).

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Jan 88 1123-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 11 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:

        Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs) & Alien Races &
                        Essays on Fantasy &
                        Male/Female Orientation in Juveniles &
                        Final Battles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 DEC 87 13:43-N
From: U00254%hasara5.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: WorldCon 1990

I'm considering to offer the organizers of the 1990 WorldCon (which
will be held in The Hague, The Netherlands) to open an e-mail
address for info. Let me know if any of YOU are interested in such
an e-mail address.

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5
Un. of Amsterdam
The Netherlands

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 23:16:25 GMT
From: mcb@tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Seek info on SerCon 2 in Austin TX

Since USENIX and UniForum will be just half a state away on February
8-12, I thought it might be fun to attend SerCon (advertised as the
"serious" SF/F reader's con: no media stuff, costume programming,
etc.)  in Austin.  There seems to be some dispute as to the date,
though:

The January IASFM says Feb 12-14, Rich Zellich's SF-CONS-LIST says
Feb 12-14, LOCUS says Feb 12-14, but the February IASFM says Feb
19-21.  Is the latter a typo, or has the date been changed???  There
is no phone number given in any listing; I've written to the P.O.
Box but that can take weeks.  I even called the hotel, only to be
told that "the person who knows about that kind of thing is on
vacation until Jan 4."

Any info, especially the phone number of a reliable con contact,
would be appreciated...

Michael C. Berch
Internet: mcb@tis.llnl.gov
UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 88 01:15:07 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Seek info on SerCon 2 in Austin TX

mcb@tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>the February IASFM says Feb 19-21.  Is the latter a typo, or has
>the date been changed???

The 19-21 dates are correct, according to the houseful of SMOFs next
door.  Sorry, don't have a contact number.  If you go, enjoy!  Last
year's Sercon was the only convention I've ever been to where almost
all of the members went to almost all of the program items, and, in
general, had a great time.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 05:20:34 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU (Taeri Bellasar)
Subject: Upcoming SF&F/Gaming Convention

MUNCIECON '88 -- DR. WHO/STAR TREK/FANTASY/GAMING

Saturday April 16th, 1988
L.A. Pittenger Student Center
Ball State University
Muncie, Indiana

TIMES -- 8:00 AM - 11:00 PM

GUESTS:  Lois McMaster Bujold -- Fantasy writer
            Nominated for Campbell Award
            Titles:  "Shards Of Honor"
            (there are others, but I don't have the list
            on hand) Popular guest at many midwestern conventions

         Tim Quinn -- Cartoonist from Britain, best known in U.S. for
            the comic strip "Doctor Who?" in DOCTOR WHO MAGAZINE
            which hew co-writes with Dickey Howett
            Has worked for Marvel U.K., DC Thompson
         Jean Airey
             &
         Laurie Haldeman -- Part-time DOCTOR WHO and BLAKE'S 7 fans
            Free-lance writers for STARLOG magazine
            Authors of "Travel Without The TARDIS"

ACTIVITIES:
   Dealer's Room
   Open Gaming Rooms
   Lectures and Panels
   Dr. Who Activities Room
   Star Trek Activities Room
   AD&D Gladiator Tournament - Sanctioned
   Star Fleet Battles Tournament - Sanctioned
   BattleTech Tournament - (Sanction tentative)
   Fletcher Pratt Demonstration (1/700 miniature naval combat)
   Warhammer Demonstration
   GURPS Demonstration

If you want more information, either about attending or having a
booth, please contact them at:

MUNCIECON '88
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
1-317-747-0023

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 05:39:05 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: WISCON

                               WISCON
                          Feb. 19-21, 1988
                         Madison, Wisconsin

Once again, it's time for WISCON, Madison's annual science fiction
convention, with an emphasis on feminist science fiction (though not
exclusively devoted to it). There will be a film program,
masquerade, huckster room, and art room. To write for membership,
the address is SF3, PO Box 1624, Madison, WI 53701-1624. For more
information, call 1-608-251-6226.

I attended this convention last year and enjoyed it. It's a small
convention, so you can actually meet the guests, with an emphasis on
programming (very good programming, as a matter of fact). I
recommend it. (Please do not write to me with questions, though, as
I am not a member of the convention committee and would not know the
answer.)

                               GUESTS

R.A. MacAvoy is the John W. Campbell award winning author of the
"Damiano" trilogy, "Tea With the Black Dragon," "Twisting the Rope,"
"The Book of Kells," and most recently "The Grey Horse."

George R.R. Martin is the award winning author of "The Armageddon
Rag," and the editor of "Wild Cards" and "New Voices 1-4." He also
worked as story editor of the 1986 "Twilight Zone" television
series, and is currently working on "Beauty and the Beast."

Stu Shiffman is a self described "seven time Hugo loser," and is the
editor of the fanzine "Potsherd."

                        BANQUET

This year, we are having a buffet-style banquet featuring three
entrees (one of which will be vegetarian), three vegetable dishes,
and four salads.  The banquet will be followed by speeches by the
guests of honor, which will be open to all convention members. A
limited number of tickets are available, and should be ordered in
advance.

                         HOTEL

The con will be held at the Holiday Inn #2 at the intersection of US
Hwys 12 & 18 and Interstate 90. Make reservations by phone, or by
sending a check to the hotel. Check-in time is 4 pm, rooms without
guaranteed reservations will be held until 6 pm. Make reservations
by calling locally 22-9121 or state & nationally 1-800- 465-4329, or
by writing Holdiay Inn #2, 3521 Evan Acres Rd., Madison, WI 53704.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 87 10:16:19 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Alien races

After seeing recent discussions of alien races, I wish to mention
one race which has been much maligned. Much information is available
about this race, but is rarely seen due to enemy propaganda, which
not only presents a biassed view against this race, but is of such
low quality that few people, having seen this propaganda, choose to
investigate further.

I refer to the Cylons. Not the self-propelled tin cans of the TV
series "Battlestar Galactica", but the sentient cybernetic beings in
the book of the same name. A large portion of this book is written
from the point of view of their Imperious Leader, giving an insight
into their thought processes and culture (yes, they have one).
Further references can be found in the second book, "The Cylon Death
Machine", giving a better account of the events seen in the TV
episode "Gun on Ice Planet Zero".

First, did you know that the human colonials were the invaders, and
that the Cylons were the defenders? And that Imperious Leader claims
to have given the humans a warning, whereas the human Commander
Adama denies such a warning was received? Maybe the humans couldn't
recognise the warning (whatever it was), or maybe they've forgotten
it (humans have such short lives, even without Cylon measures -
trouble is, they breed too quickly).

The humans seem outraged by the Cylon trap, which led to the humans'
severest defeat, i.e. the "peace meeting". Why? The humans use
similar strategies against species which they consider to be vermin.
Consider a mouse trap, in which a piece of food is offered as a sign
of friendship, but when the mouse accepts it, it is killed. The
Cylons regard the humans as vermin, to be treated in the same way.

Did you know that Cylons are capable of emotion? Like the Vulcans,
which some humans admire, the Cylons try to suppress them, but some
Cylons are less successful than others. Some even become poets! Even
the Imperious Leader himself has been known to lapse into fits of
anger, usually provoked by the deeds of Adama. At the end of the
book "Battlestar Galactica", he observes himself in such a lapse,
and regards this as the humans' most severe victory against him,
that they have made him think like them.

That ludicrous sequence at the end of the film, in which two of the
most arrogant human pilots flew at low level, exchanging uncoded
radio messages on the Cylon frequency, purporting to come from more
squadrons than the Galactica could conceivably carry. Do you really
think that Imperious Leader would have fallen for so obvious a ruse?
The Leader's ship was nowhere near Carillon. It was at Borallus, and
if it wasn't for that accursed Adama, so would the Galactica have
been.

"Humans observers would have been appalled to learn that for the
Cylons, such simple dichotomies as Good and Evil did not exist.
These concepts varied widely with time and location, anyway. What
was important was preserving Order".  - Thoughts of Imperious
Leader, from "Battlestar Galactica" - book.

Has no-one else observed the Cylons' most devious strategy? They
have kept away from the Galactica. This has left the propaganda
writers with no worthwhile material with which to work.
Consequently, the quality of their output, already low, has fallen
yet further. Result - fewer people watch it. Result - end of series,
and of Galactica. Problem - end of Cylons too!

Adrian Hurt
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 22:31:26 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Kurtz Recommendation & Question (Was Re: Fantasy books)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>>douglis@ginger.Berkeley.EDU (Fred Douglis) writes:
>>>the Deryni books, by Katherine Kurtz.
>>Yes, by all means, read them. They are (to abuse the language)
>>fantastic fantasies, in both senses of fantastic.
>
>For an extremely well-reasoned rebuttal of this statement, I
>recommend (very, very highly) Ursula LeGuin's essay "From Elfland
>to Poughkeepsie", reprinted in the collection "Languages of the
>Night".  Reading this essay let me identify, for the first time,
>exactly why I am so dissatisfied with much of the stuff being
>billed as fantasy these days.
>[...]

I second this recommendation, equally highly.  Another collection
that contains this essay is _Fantasists on Fantasy_ edited by Robert
H. Boyer and Kenneth J. Zahorski (Avon/Discus/86553; ISBN
0-380-86553-X).  This is a very nice collection of essays from the
people who brought you _The Fantastic Imagination_ and _The
Fantastic Imagination II_.  It has essays by George MacDonald, G. K.
Chesterton, H. P. Lovecraft, Sir Herbert Read, James Thurber, J. R.
R. Tolkien, August Derleth, C. S. Lewis, Felix Marti-Ibanez, Peter
S.  Beagle, Lloyd Alexander, Andre Norton, Jane Langton, Ursula K.
LeGuin, Molly Hunter, Katherine Kurtz, Michael Moorcock and Susan
Cooper.

Some of these authors are represented more than once.  Both of
LeGuin's essays are reprinted from _The Language of the Night_.
Tolkien's essays are an excerpt from "On Fairy-Stories" and another
from a letter to W. H. Auden (from his collected letters).
Lovecraft's essay is his introduction to his work "Supernatural
Horror in Literature".  But although some of these works may be
familiar or available elsewhere, many are not and all of them have
the wonderful biographical introductions that the editors always
provide.  If nothing else, this book provides pointers to a great
deal of fantasy that you may never see referred to elsewhere; the
only problem is finding it.

I mention this book because it may be easier to find than _TLotN_.
I got my copy just before Christmas at the local University
Bookstore.

William H. Ansley
uucp:     ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 03:14:34 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60aC)
Subject: Male/Female orientation in juveniles

Mel Marsh writes:
>That reminded me of an English professor I had in college.
>He had conducted an informal survey of all of his students on whaqt
>books they had read as children.  He found that boys and girls had
>read the Hardy boys books, but only girls had read the Nancy Drew
>books.  His conclusion was thatgirls would read books regardless of
>the sex of the main character, but boys would only read books about
>boys.  This is a generalization, of course, but I have found it to
>be fairly accurate still.

Perhaps I'm abnormal, but I never read either of them (and still
haven't).  Nor have I read _Treasure Island_ or most of the other
juveniles that seem to be standard fare for kids.  In fact, I read
very little until I discovered sf.  I can still remember reading _A
Wrinkle in Time_ in the 4th grade and _Runaway Robot_ in the fifth
and borrowing _Triplanetary_ (by Doc Smith) from my older brother in
the seventh, but I can't remember any other book I read from those
years.

Those books were not chosen on the basis of male/female orientation;
they were the only sf availiable at the time.

Almost any other juvenile that I've read, such as Earthsea, I did so
as an adult.  (I don't think Earthsea came out until I was an adult,
but that's irrelevant. :-)

Dan Tilque

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 19:15:33 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Final Battles--An Overworked Cliche

SPOILER for "Lord of the Rings" (if you haven't read it yet), "A Man
Rides Through", "The Darkest Road", "The Power that Preserves",
"Darkness at Sethanon", "Enchanters Endgame", "The Blue Sword", and
quite a few others (some of these titles more than others).

It's the third-last chapter of the trilogy.  The good guys and the
bad guys are on the battlefield, and the good guys are outnumbered
ten-to-one.  (Or, alternatively, the good guys are besieged and
outnumbered twenty-to-one).  An incredible battle follows.  By dint
of heroism, superior skill and a bag of tricks which they've been
saving for just such an epic battle, the good guys manage to repulse
wave after wave of attackers -- albeit with heavy losses on both
sides.

Then, at the crucial moment, the arch bad guy gets his head blown
off or his power destroyed or a mountain dropped on him or some such
and the war is over. The bad guys surrender or flee.  In some
variations the whole battle just served as a distraction.  In others
it was a complete waste of time and lives.

Tolkien gets away with this.  He had priority and, besides, this
ending was foreshadowed from the beginning of the trilogy.  But this
ending has seen a little too much use.

I'd like to see the cliche reversed: The small dedicated band of
heroes attempts to end the war in one swell foop by doing away with
the great villain, and is handily overcome by the guards.  They are
saved at the last minute by the army which, although not very
skillful, outnumbers the villains twenty-to-one...

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 88 0910-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:

           Books - McCaffrey (4 msgs) & Vance (4 msgs) &
                   Fantasy Recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 09:08:04 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Pern

Anyone else notice that in _Nerilka's Story_ Nerilka puts on
trousers and tunic at the start of chapter 2 and 1 page (5 minutes
of story time later) has her long skirts swishing on the stairs?

This has to be in the same category as Larry Niven's backwards
rotation of the Earth in _Ringworld_ (early editions) but less
excusable (We're not told that Nerilka is a quick-change artist, nor
does she go *between* times!)

Peter Kendell <pete@tcom.stc.co.uk>
...{uunet!}mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 09 January 88 13:06 EST
From: UT6Y%CORNELLA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: DragonRiders again...

Ooops...seems someone had already posted that chronology...well,
hey, it ain't my fault that I'm not seeing these things in realtime.

Anyway...I must beg to differ (jeez, that line's getting used a lot)
about the Harper Hall books being strictly romance...or ANY of them
being strictly romance for that matter.  The DragonRiders Trilogy
certainly gets some romance in there-- few Fantasy books do not
(hell, even Thomas Covenant books (the second set) have a bit of
romance in them).  The Harper Hall books do get a bit more mushy,
but remember the audience they're directed at.  Harper Hall was
Anne's way of reaching the younger crowd without having to invent a
new universe.  Cheap, perhaps, but effective.  _Moreta..._ also
seemed a bit more mushy, but that's probably because Anne figured
that audiences of both D'riders and H'Hall would be reading it, and,
thus, had to compromise.  (Of course, the possibilty that Anne's
getting trapped in what someone termed Romance writers syndrome is
possible also, but I prefer to think otherwise).  I haven't read
Nerilka's story, but the impression I get is that that one IS
romance -- c'est la vie.

OK...enough of my babbling -- I'm running up a bill here.

Michael Scott Shappe
BitNet: Ut6y@CORNELLA
Internet : UT6Y@%CORNELLA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
           UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 88 14:36 EST
From: <DPARMENTER%HAMPVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: As The World PERNs...

>wisner@oberon.LCS.MIT.EDU (Bill Wisner) says:
>>dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>>I agree.  However, you must admit that the Pern stories are
>>>basically romances with dragons (instead of the Love Boat) and
>>>thus much easier to read.
>> Hmm. I beg to differ.  The romance is definitely there. The
>> dragons are definitely there. The two definitely intermingle. But
>> the romance is used mainly in characterization,
>
>Can I beg to differ, too?
>
>I read the first trilogy, the "Dragonriders of Pern" trilogy. It
>was decent.  I've read several of her other books, including one
>from the "Harperhall" series, and found them to beset by
>"romance-writer's syndrome"... e.g. mostly some young broad falling
>in love with every sexy hunk that comes along, and some gratuitous
>action, violence, and romance to make things excited for the bank
>tellers and middle-aged housewives who read this sort of thing :-}
>(good example is "Crystal Singer"). Inoffensive, but not my cup of
>cake. I would recommend "Dragonriders of Pern", but the rest, you
>can keep'em.

I tend to agree with what most of the contributors have had to say
about the Dragonrider books.  I think that in a lot of ways, the
'romance' angle was geared towards an SF-reading audience though.
One of the appealing elements in "The White Dragon" was that the kid
and his dragon were 'losers' who managed to triumph through pluck
and determination.  Or so I recall, it has been some years since I
read the books.

The main strength of Pern in my mind is that it is one of those
handful of books that creates a very *real*, very charming place,
where one would give their eye teeth to actually visit.  This is
something I always look for in an effective fantasy setting.  C.S.
Lewis achieved it with Narnia, J.R.R. Tolkien got it very well with
Middle-Earth.  Ray Bradbury's melancholy childhood fantasies manage
to get it.  The worst fantasy writers substitute the trappings of
fantasy, i.e. Elves and Fairies and Dragons, for effective
storytelling.

Fannish types have a high tolerance for soap-opera.  Consider, one
of the most inexplicable fannish traditions, that of the regency
dance, and the attendant fascination with the romances of Georgette
Heyer (of which I have read none...and I'll even admit to reading
one GOR novel).  It is curious that a certain unnamed SF
organization will embrace romance novels (admittedly, these
'regency' novels are said to be of slightly higher caliber than the
variety one finds while perusing such literary treasures as can be
found at the supermarket), and yet the same organization tries to
discourage Star Trek fans and L5 society members.  Ostensibly, these
books are SF because people say and do things that would be
impossible in the real world.  I don't begrudge people the right to
do anything they want in the name of SF, Lord knows, this same SF
organization once featured 'Casablanca' on its film program which
was wonderful.  It's just...interesting...  If you take a look into
the occasional Star Trek fanzine, you get the strong sense sometimes
that you are reading a romance novel.  This may account for why many
people in fandom count among their 'outside' interests, a love for
television shows like "Moonlighting" which is essentially a
soap-opera (no flames please!!!!).

This is an interesting topic for discussion actually!  Anne
McCaffrey has done a commendable job of combining many of the very
different elements that fans tend to enjoy.  We get soap-opera,
dragons, magic of a sort, spaceships, 'characters-with-problems'
etc.  McCaffrey has realized, perhaps unconsciously, that people
like soap operas.  Marvel comics realized the same thing in the
sixties: fans will read more super hero stories if an element of
soap opera is thrown in.  I have no problem with this, as a guilty
pleasure of sorts.  The SF and Fantasy that stays with me manages to
rise above this, yet there is a very definite charm to following a
character for a long time, observing how he or she changes and
grows.

I apologize for going off on this tangent, but it's an interesting
topic.

Dan Parmenter
box 808
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA  01002
BITNET:  dparmenter@hampvms
CSNET:   dparmenter%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP:    ...seismo!hampvms.bitnet!dparmenter
INET:  dparmenter%hampvms.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 06:52:15 GMT
From: dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Anne McCaffery...

UT6Y@cornella.BITNET writes:
>Also, she's supposedly coming out with another DragonRiders book
>soon....  Let's hope so.

This information from Diane Duane, currently staying at Anne
McCaffery's home in Ireland:

Anne McCaffery has finished and will have out this fall a new Drgon
Riders book to be called Dragonsdawn. This book will take place at
the time of the first landing of man on Pern.

I can't wait!

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 01:01:31 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Bogus Vance(was Comments and further recs)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>I doubt the existence of "Cugel's Quest", since Vance wrote the
>first two, took a long hiatus, picked up "Cugel's Saga" exactly at
>the end of "Eyes", and then went on with "Rialto". But title
>confusion aside, they are very good, light, sometimes satirical
>fantasy.

(Hooray!  At last some of the trivial knowledge that my brain
accumulates willy-nilly comes in useful!)

Cugel's Quest does indeed exist, but it's not by Jack Vance.  At
some point after _Eyes of the Overworld_ came out some SF fan (I
don't remember his name) convinced Vance to let him write a sequel
to _Eyes_, which he did and it was called _Cugel's Quest_.  Vance,
much later on, decided to do the job himself and produced _Cugel's
Saga_.

If I remember correctly, this info came from the entry on Vance in
Peter Nichol's _Science Fiction Encyclopedia_ (needless to say, I
don't have my copy with me, so I can't be sure). If I'm right, you
can check there for more detailed info.  I like to imagine this fan
pestering Vance for the umpteenth time about when he was going to
write a sequel to _Eyes_ and finally being told in complete
exasperation, "Look, you want to read it so much, why don't you
write it!"

By the way, I think Cugel is an example of a well done antihero, as
opposed to Donaldson's Thomas Covenant.  I don't think Cugel can
really be called a likable character, but I do think you can
identify with him to a certain extent, and he doesn't make you sick
to your stomach (no, I didn't like Donaldson's _Book of the Land_,
or whatever the series was called, at all.)

William H. Ansley
uucp:     ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 19:33:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Bogus Vance(was Comments and fu

> Cugel's Quest does indeed exist, but it's not by Jack Vance.  At
> some point after _Eyes of the Overworld_ came out some SF fan (I
> don't remember his name) convinced Vance to let him write a sequel
> to _Eyes_, which he did and it was called _Cugel's Quest_.  Vance,
> much later on, decided to do the job himself and produced _Cugel's
> Saga_.

  I remember seeing a sequel to "Eyes" by an author named Michael
Shea, I believe.  (In fact, I may even have it back at my parents'
home.)  The title "Cugel's Quest" does not ring any bells, though.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 88 14:23:11 EST
From: John Cherniavsky <jcc@mimsy.umd.edu>
Subject: Araminta Station - Jack Vance - review

                          Araminta Station
                             Jack Vance
                  Underwood-Miller  0-88733-059-2

This is Book 1 of the Cadwal Chronicles. I generally like Jack
Vance's work (otherwise why spend money for the limited edition when
Tor is coming out with a hardcover in a month or so), and this is
typical of his more recent work. Cadwal is a planet discovered by a
member of the Naturalist Society of Earth. The planet was to be
maintained as a natural preserve and not exploited. To enforce this
non-exploitation, the Society established Arminta Station - an area
of 100 square miles. The original administrators in charge of six
agencies were named Wook, Clattuc, Diffin, Offaw, Veder, and
Laverty. The administrators and their descendents established six
houses taking the above names - each house limited to 40 individuals
with "full agency status" (i.e. citizenship). Arminta Station is the
story of Glawen Clattuc from age 16 to 21.

At age 16 each individual from the houses is assigned an index. For
5 years, by study and luck, the index may be improved. At age 21 a
decision is made regarding full agency status. If the index is not
low enough the individual becomes a non-citizen - this means that
residence at the houses is no longer available and that emigration
is likely. Araminta Station concerns the coming of age in an unusual
society of Glawen Clattuc. It contains several sub-plots involving
murderous mysteries and trips to various nearby planets - each with
their own unusual societies - not to mention descriptions of two
other societies on Cadwal, the Yips of Yiptown and the Naturalists
of Stroma. This is a long (450 pp) and very rich book and the pace
and writing style are closer to Vance's Lyonesse series than his
Alastor or Tschai series. I recommend the book to any Jack Vance
aficionado.

John C. Cherniavsky
Georgetown University

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 09:27:47 GMT
From: Scott_R_Bauer@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Bogus Vance/"Cugel's Quest" (Now: Michale Shea)

ansley@sunybcs.uucp (William Ansley) writes:
> Cugel's Quest does indeed exist, but it's not by Jack Vance. At
> some point after _Eyes of the Overworld_ came out some SF fan (I
> don't remember his name) convinced Vance to let him write a sequel
> to _Eyes_, which he did and it was called _Cugel's Quest_.

To clarify a bit (for those looking for the book) :
   DAW Books No. 88 -- Copyright 1974 (First Printing Jan. 1974)
   Title : _A Quest for Simbilis_

The "SF fan: William mentions went on to write a few other things of
some note later in his career -- the best known of which is the
World Fantasy Award winning _Nifft the Lean_ (sp?). Yes, Michael
Shea. I believe the one condition Jack Vance imposed was that Cugel
would be left as was at the end of _Eyes_, in case Vance later
wanted to write a sequel of his own (which, of course, he did.) So
at the end of Simbilis Shea has brought Cugel back to exactly the
same situation as he started in.

[I believe this was Shea's first book, and is well worth looking for
over- and-above its value as a collectors item, as it is quite a
good story.]

Scott Bauer
sbauer@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 23:00:55 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

I am very surprised at the paucity of recommendations sent in reply
to the original request for good fantasy books, especially older,
"classic" titles.  It must be the time of year.

I agree with the original poster of the long list of books on his or
her (I lost the reference) selections of Roger Zelazny and Gene
Wolfe and Anne McCaffrey's books (_Dragonquest_ and _Dragonflight_
only, however!)  I am not familiar with most of the others.  I can't
recommend the Thomas Covenant books of Stephen R.  Donaldson.  The
lead character (Thomas) is just too hard to take (yes, I read all
the articles defending him, I still don't like him) and I found the
fantasy world Donaldson created totally unconvincing and
uninvolving.

But how about:

Evangaline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogion (one of the major
works of Welsh mythology and the source of a lot of the "Celtic
Fantasy" that's come out in the last decade).  The four books are
(not necessarily in this order):

   The Prince of Annwyn
   The Children of LLyr
   The Song of Rhiahnon (sp?)
   Isle of the Mighty

Patricia McKillup - Riddle of Stars Trilogy

   The Riddlemaster of Hed
   Heir of Sea and Fire
   Harpist in the Wind

I thought these books showed hints that McKillup is capable of
writing a fantasy masterpiece, although I wouldn't say that these
books themselves qualify, although they come close in places.

Nancy Springer - The White Hart

There are three more books in a series after this, but this one is
by far the best.  The others are:

   The Silver Sun
   The Sable Moon (I think)
   The Black Swan

Robin McKinley - Beauty

A novel length retelling of "Beauty and the Beast".  I though it
captured the sense of wonder of a fairy tail beautifully.


Peter Beagle
   The Last Unicorn
   A Fine and Private Place
   The Fantasy Worlds of Peter Beagle
      (contains "Lila, the Werewolf)

A fine and, I think, underappreciated fantasist.

William Goldman - The Princess Bride

I liked the movie a lot, but the book is better yet!

Mervyn Peake - The Gormenghast Trilogy

   Titus Groan
   Gormenghast
   Titus Alone

A must read for any fantasy fan!

Lord Dunsany - The King of Elfland's Daughter, and many others.

Also a must read!

I could go on and on (I guess I have).  I'll just give the authors'
names to complete my list:

A. Merrit
E. R. Eddison
Lloyd Alexander
Jack Vance
Fritz Leiber
L. Sprague DeCamp
Fletcher Pratt
William Hope Hodgeson
C. S. Lewis
T. H. White
Ursula K. LeGuin
R. A. McAvoy
Lewis Carroll

I can't recommend everything by all of these authors.  Some have not
written only fantasy.  Some have written books meant for children,
but (I think) still enjoyable by adults.  But for someone interested
in fantasy, I thinks all of these names are worth looking into.

William H. Ansley
uucp:     ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 88 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov & Cadigan & Dick & Gerrold &
                    Henderson & McKinley & Nourse &
                    Peake (3 msgs) & Turk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 88 10:37:06 EST
From: rang%cps45x@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang)
Subject: Asimov story (Mirror Image)

This story appears in the collection "The Best of Isaac Asimov",
which was published by Fawcett Books (something like that).  It also
includes some other relatively hard-to-find stories like "The
Billiard Ball", which are pretty good.  I don't have the publication
date because the first few pages of my copy have disappeared, but I
would guess sometime in the early 1970s.

Anton Rang

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 01:02:19 GMT
From: bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: Re: Pat Cadigan story

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (Your Mother) writes:
>       How many of you read the Pat Cadigan story in the January
> issue of Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine, and found it a real let-down?
> I can't recall the title right now, but it was about a young woman
> returning home from college, looking for her junkie brother who'd
> been thrown out of the house.
>
>          [ comments deleted ]
>
>       3.  The protagonist's brother is turned into one of the
> vampires... [stuff deleted]...  Now assuming they are natural
> biological organisms, how could they turn the brother into one of
> them ? The old "if a vampire bites you, you turn into one too"
> causality doesn't seem to apply to this story, as the junkies die
> when the vampire sucks their blood.  Let's pretend the vampires
> have some sort of catalyst that can alter human biochemistry, and
> turn a normal human into one of them.  How could such a creature
> evolve--a life-form very close to a human being, which has the
> power to turn the human being into a creature like itself.  It
> seems pretty impossible above the cellular level (like what
> viruses do).

   I noted an interesting "conceptual" connection between your
difficulty here, and one of the numerous mind-boggling concepts in
Greg Bear's novel, BLOOD MUSIC.  In that novel, a scientist creates
intelligent cells, e.g. white blood corpuscles that are individual
sentient beings.  The scientist smuggles them out of a lab facility
by injecting them into his own body, amid fears that they may not
survive but it's got to be tried, etc. (read the book for details,
it's terrific).  Not only do they survive, they TAKE OVER, first
observing and analyzing his body at the cellular level, and then
making structural modifications to nearly every part thereof.  The
connection, then, to the story you're discussing, is this: if the
vampires had some sort of symbiosis with cellular-level sentient
entities, this would answer many of the problems you mention about
turning normal human beings, animals, etc. into vampires "just by
stinging them."  To wit:

    How?  - the sentient cells are injected with the heroin, taking
over the junkies' bodies and reworking the structure into that of
the vampire.

    Why?  - symbiotic relationship: vampire provides host body (a
whole WORLD, really, when one is the size of a cell!), sentient
cells provide external reproduction of vampire species, freeing
vampires from perils/problems of in-body humanlike reproduction.
Note that this solves "why sting?," and "why not reproduce within
the species" questions.

    What about animals? - sentient cells ought to be able to work
with any host they darn well please, but might prefer human hosts in
much the same way as human space colonists might be expected to
prefer Earth-like worlds: they're FAMILIAR.  At any rate,
cat/dog/other vampires ought to be quite possible; surely there are
pioneering adventurists among the cells just as in the human race.

    Read BLOOD MUSIC, think about the concepts, and you'll be amazed
at how many ramifications there could be.

    Lastly, you have a point ANYWAY, since the author(ess?) still
left a lot of loose ends, regardless of any explanations you or I
could pull out of thin air "after the fact."  I just thought you'd
enjoy hearing what went through my mind as I read your article.

Chris Chiesa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 88 13:34:11 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: P. K. Dick Collections

Since there is mention so often of PKD in SF-Lovers, I thought it
would be worthwhile to post a note about this. I just discovered
today, on the shelves of the St. Louis Public Library, a new
multi-volume set of "The Collected Stories of P. K. Dick". There are
at least 5 volumes; I checked out 2 thru 5 (#1 must have been
already checked out, & I'll get it later).

They are published by Underwood/Miller, of Los Angeles and Columbia,
PA, and are copyright 1987 by The Estate of Philip K. Dick. They are
in a hardbound edition, with ISBN 0-88733-053-3(set) for the trade
edition.  (There is also a slipcased edition mentioned, with ISBN
the same except it is 052 instead of 053.) These were on the shelves
with no dust jackets, so I don't know if they came with any. (The
library usually keeps DJs on with a plastic cover, so I suspect
there were no DJs.) All the books have bindings which differ
slightly in color, ranging from orange to brown.  Don't know why
they are not the same. There is a pointer to the Philip K. Dick
Society on the copyright page of each volume.

Here is the data for each volume -- they each have an introduction
by a different author, and a title selected from one of the stories
included (not the first one, so I don't know how the titles were
selected, nor how the order of the stories was chosen):

Volume One: ? (Haven't seen it yet)
Volume Two: SECOND VARIETY
   Intro by Norman Spinrad     27 stories
Volume Three: THE FATHER-THING
   Intro by John Brunner       23 stories
Volume Four: THE DAYS OF PERKY PAT
   Intro by James Tiptree, Jr. 18 stories
Volume Five: THE LITTLE BLACK BOX
   Intro by Thomas M. Disch    25 stories

Each book ends with a section of Notes on the stories included in
that volume, from comments Dick made on some of the stories when
they were anthologized or otherwise reprinted.

The typeface in these books has the appearance of laser-printer
output.  (Can't say just why it seems that way, it just does...)
That isn't necessarily bad, but I don't find the end result very
attractive.  However, the contents are more important than the form,
so I'm looking forward to reading these...

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 04:45:12 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: chtorr

For the fans of the Chtorr series, I checked with Gerrold on
CompuServe to see what was going on with them. The good news is that
the first two books will come back in print in 88. The better news
is that the long delayed third book is also on its way, either late
in 88 or early 89. The bad news is that I forgot to ask him who his
publisher is now. Oh, well, when I figure that out, I'll let you
know.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 14:00:47 GMT
From: drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: The People, again

One (possibly) last word on the subject of Zenna Henderson's
"People" stories as discussed a few weeks ago: For People
completists, the two final stories not included in any of
Henderson's collections are

   "Katie-Mary's Trip," Fantasy and Science Fiction, January 1975

and
   "Tell Us a Story," Fantasy and Science Fiction, October 1980

To my knowledge, neither of these stories has appeared anywhere
other than in F&SF.  If I'm mistaken, I hope someone will enlighten
me.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
{rutgers|ames|mit-eddie}!ll-xn!drilex!carols

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 17:38:59 GMT
From: bunker!mary@RUTGERS.EDU (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Re: Comments and further recs (was fantasy recs)

ansley@gort.UUCP (William Ansley) writes:
> [I recommend]
>Robin McKinley - Beauty

Don't forget two more of her books: The Blue Sword and its prequel,
The Hero and the Crown.  I read The Blue Sword in one sitting -- I
just couldn't put it down.  McKinley does a nice job with
characterization, and her use of the language is wonderful.

Mary Shurtleff
....decvax!bunker!mary

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 22:01:21 GMT
From: yendor!gmg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary Godfrey)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_ - tangent

When I first heard that a movie called _Blade_Runner_ was coming
out, I was overjoyed.  I had read a book by Alen E. Nourse by the
same name, and it was quite good.  It was about a future society
where government controlled medical centers promoted manditory
sterilization for genetic diseases.  Needless to say, there was a
general outcry, and an underground medical society was created,
hence the name _Blade_Runner_.  I was disappointed by the movie.

Anybody else read any Norse?

Gary Godfrey
Reston, VA
(703)471-9433
..!mimsy!{prometheus,hqda-ai}!yendor!gmg

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 88 04:13 EST
From: Dan Harkavy <V066EDD9@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #10

I have tried to read the Ghormanghast trilogy.  While I found the
imagery not only vivid, but breathtaking, I quickly found myself
bogged down in the books limited excuse for a plot.  I have a
tendency to continue reading a book once I pick it up regardless of
other factors, but not even my usual tenacity could keep me reading
it.  The individual images are excellent, but the overall writing
stinks.

DJH

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 18:45:55 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

hunt@cg-atla.UUCP (Walter Hunt X7031) writes:
>wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
>>Great fantasy = the first two books of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast
>>trilogy, *Titus Groan* and *Gormenghast*.
>
>This is exaggeration.  Gormenghast is fascinating, yes -- the
>imagery and characterizations are meticulous and generally well
>executed.  But the books are damned hard to read, and diligence is
>required to get you past the first 100 pages.  After reading all
>three, I found that many of Peake's images stayed with me
>(consider, for instance, the battle between Mr. Flay and Mr.
>Swelter on the roof of the Castle at the end of _Titus Groan_) but
>I still found myself wondering what the hell was the point.

I disagree.  I admit that there are many places in these books where
nothing is happening in terms of plot advancement but I found them
gripping reading nonetheless.

There are few books I have read where one of the characters will
live in my mind for the rest of my life and this is one of them.

If you read these books and enjoy them, you should try to find "Boy
in Darkness" by Mervyn Peake.  This is a story about Titus Groan
(the protagonist of the Gormenghast books) as a young boy.  It is in
a collection of three novella length works called _Sometime, Never_
by Wyndham (sp?), Peake and Golding (no editor's name is given).
This book also contains "Consider Her Ways" by John Wyndham and "The
Brass Butterfly" (I think) by William Golding.

Anyway, I just want everyone to know that someone feels strongly
enough about these books to waste your time with another posting
recommending them.

William H. Ansley
uucp:     ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 22:59:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

ccvaxa.UUCP!wombat writes:
>Great fantasy = the first two books of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast
>trilogy, *Titus Groan* and *Gormenghast*. (The third book, *Titus
>Alone*, is also good but Peake died while writing it and it also
>turns into science fiction.) The first few pages may put you off at
>first but once you get going it's great. You can tell Peake worked
>as an illustrator; his writing is full of wonderful imagery. It's
>almost like watching a movie instead of reading a book.

I had this same recommendation last summer, and actually began
_Titus Groan_, to find that, yes, the author was a master of written
imagery, but he also had a deep dark depressingly gothic
imagination.  This may be good for some people, but I really get
loaded down when a book is this dense.  Keep that in mind when
looking it up on recommendation....

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 21:14:16 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: ETHER ORE by H. C. Turk

                      ETHER ORE by H. C. Turk
                      Tor, 1987, 0-812-55635-6
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is the second book I've read in the "Ben Bova Discoveries"
series (the first was NAPOLEON DISENTIMED) and frankly, I don't get
it.  Both seem to be written as though the reader should find them
hysterically funny.  I wish I could explain precisely what I mean by
that, but I can't.  Just think back to the last time you want a
comedy show that wasn't funny, and you'll know the feeling.
NAPOLEON DISENTIMED had some background adventure-type plot to
sustain it, but ETHER ORE just falls flat.

     Melody Preece--the blurb describes her as "Alice in Wonderland,
Dorothy of Oz and Barbra Streisand, all rolled into one," after
which build-up disappointment is almost inevitable--anyway, Melody
Preece wants to go to Marz, the Tan Planet.  Oh, yes, this is also
an alternate worlds novel--not an alternate history novel, mind you.
A sample from the first chapter explains, "In this era, the greatest
influence on world politics and society was the pacificist Adele
Hidler.  Fuhrher Hidler* had gained her greatest fame by virtually
preventing World War II using the force of her personality,
overcoming her demokraptic nemesis, Wynton Churchell, via heated and
well-publicized debates.  Hidler convinced the world to reject
Churchell's ideas, his militarism, and especially the Briticher's
unfortunate desire to force Yurope's Hebish populations into a
separate state instead of integrating them with the societies of
their home nations.  Hidler's insistence was to accept Jewbrews as
people instead of segregating them as religious cult."  I won't even
mention (okay, I just did) that Turk does not mean that Hidler
virtually prevented World War II, but rather that she *did* prevent
it almost entirely by the force of her personality.  And a
subsidiary observation is that if she prevented it, it wouldn't have
the name "World War II" either.

     The novel continues in this vein, with Lynda Buns Jonestown,
Calizonia, Doitchland, ad infinitum, truly ad nauseum.  Turk seems
to think that misspelling every proper name s/he can sandwich in
makes the novel clever; it merely makes it look like a proofreading
nightmare, or your average Ace book (sorry, that was a cheap shot,
but I couldn't resist it).  The advantage to this, of course, is
that even if ETHER ORE were badly proofread, it would be almost
impossible to detect.

     Melody gets to Marz, where she somehow changes universes to
another alternate world, is thought to be a witch and is sentenced
to burn at the stake.  From here it's just one madcap adventure
after another.  Whoopee!  I feel like the character in he Four
Seasons who says, "Is this the fun part?  Are we having fun yet?"

     It isn't and I didn't.

* Note:  The feminine of "Fuhrer" would actually be, I believe,
"Fuhrerin."

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Jan 88 0948-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 12 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:

                Television - Old TV shows (2 msgs) &
                             Clutch Cargo (2 msgs) &
                             Marine Boy (2 msgs) &
                             Thunderbirds & Blake's 7 (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 31 Dec 87 12:28:16-EST
From: Twila Oxley Price <TOP@SEED.AMS.COM>
Subject: Old TV shows

Herculoids was out about the same time as Space Ghost and may have
been part of the same program.  Does anyone remember Clutch Cargo,
Space Angel, or Captain Fathom?  What of Supercar, Fireball XL-5, or
Stingray?  These were classics of Supermarionation.  And I also
remember Rocky Jones, Space Ranger.  I think my dad was the one who
watched it.  I would have been quite young!

The Japanese are famous for their fascination with robots.  Voltron,
one with Samurai robots, Astroboy, Marineboy, and a host of others.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 88 10:27:29 EST
From: rang%cps45x@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang)
Subject: Old TV shows

>Doesn't anybody besides me remember the TV Flash Gordon or
>Commander Cody - you know the guy with the rocket on his back.??

Wisconsin Public Television used to put Flash Gordon on after Doctor
Who episodes (this was last year).  I would guess that it must still
be available--if you write to your own local PTV station you might
be able to get it in your area.

> 1. Shazam( or was it called Captain Marvel?)
> ...I remember the word was supposed to stand for letters of
> mythical heroes which Captain Marvel had the attributes of...

I remember this--about '77 or '78?  I think one of the A's was for
Achilles (speed).  Wasn't there some sort of spaceship or something
in this series too (I don't remember it very well and may be
confusing it with something else).

Anton Rang

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jan 88 18:28:14 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Clutch Cargo

(Twila Oxley Price) writes:
> Does anyone remember Clutch Cargo,

Yes, Twila, I do.

The animation was as poor as any I've ever seen - essentially just
cutouts moved on a background - there was a gimmick though.  Their
mouths were real mouths, superimposed on the drawing - when they
spoke, the mouths moved appropriately (of course the rest of their
face didn't - which made for a really bizzare effect).

There was Clutch Cargo - an adventurer of sorts
   A kid  and his dachshound
   Another guy
   A woman

I always thought that this show was the original on which Jonny
Quest must have been based - there are quite a few parallels.

John M. Pantone
 GE/Calma R&D
9805 Scranton Rd.
San Diego, CA 92121
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 21:49:52 GMT
From: mamino@hpcupt1.hp.com (Mitchell Amino)
Subject: Re: Clutch Cargo

>There was Clutch Cargo - an adventurer of sorts
>   A kid  and his dachshound
>   Another guy
>   A woman

The "kid and his dachshund" were named Spin and Paddlefoot...I don't
remember the names of the others...

> I always thought that this show was the original on which Jonny
> Quest must have been based - there are quite a few parallels.

There was "Space Angel", which also had the same type of
Clutch-Cargo mouths.  Did it come before or after CC (or maybe at
the same time)???

Any other Chicagoans remember watching these on Garfield Goose on
weekday afternoons??  Speaking of WGN, what ever became of Ray
Rayner??

Mitch Amino
Hewlett-Packard
hplabs!hpiacla!mitcha

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 16:30:54 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Marine Boy

Well, it can't be sillier than some of the series mentioned so far.
Anyone remember an old cartoon series called "Marine Boy"? I think
it was Japanese.  The hero was some boy of indeterminate age, who
could stay underwater for long periods by swallowing oxygen pills.
His friends were an albino dolphin and a mermaid. His armoury
included a small submarine/aircraft and an electric boomerang. I
can't give colour schemes as at that time I was watching a black and
white TV.

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 22:02:32 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Marine Boy

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
>Well, it can't be sillier than some of the series mentioned so far.
>Anyone remember an old cartoon series called "Marine Boy"? I think
>it was Japanese.

I remember that - always annoyed the hell out of me, although I
watched it enough times.  He was orange, as I recall, and I think I
remember that he had to chew oxygen gum, not pills.  Or am I
confusing things?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 08:47:08 GMT
From: cdwf@root.co.uk (Clive D.W. Feather)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds are GO!!!

rwn@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes:
>hilda@tcom.stc.co.uk ( Jeff Tracey ) writes:
>> 1) Does anybody know what the phrase 'FAB' stands for ???
> No, I always wondered about this one

I think that it stands for "{Federal|Female} Agents Bureau". Before
becoming involved with IR, Lady Penelope used to run an independent
intelligence agency which used only female staff. Two or three of
the "Angels" (Spectrum Fighter Pilots - Capt. Scarlet) were
recruited from F.A.B.

>> 2) What's the first mission that International Rescue
>> accomplished ?
>Saving an sst during its maiden flight.  The landing gear was
>destroyed due to sabotage.

I thought it had a tactical nuclear weapon attached to the main
gear, arranged to go off when it was lowered. In effect, the plane
was landed on three moving platforms (spring loaded to take the
landing shock).

Incidentally, where DID they find the room to extend runway 28L at
Heathrow by that much ?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 21:23:39 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

Mark.Paulk@SEI.CMU.EDU writes:
> I recently started watching Blake's 7 and am enjoying it quite a
> bit (it wasn't shown where I used to live).  I'd like to know a
> little bit more about the series (since I've just dropped into the
> middle of it).

The Original Crew:

Blake: Earth native.  Crime: trying to overthrow the Federation.
Punishment: At first, mindwiped and put on trial, made to confess
error of his ways, rebellion fizzled.  Later, after being recruited
by new rebellion, framed for child molestation and sentenced to life
imprisonment on Cygnus Alpha.

Vila: Earth native.  Crime: theft.  Vila is a chronic thief and
alcoholic.  Met Blake while waiting in holding cell for trip to
Cygnus Alpha (Vila was in the process of liberating Blake's watch).
Terrible coward.

Genna: Crime: smuggling.  Also met Blake while waiting to go to
Cygnus Alpha.  Had great fondness for Blake.

Gan: Crime: murder.  Killed the Federation guard who was raping his
girlfriend.  Has limiter implant that prevents him from violence.
Friend of Vila's from prison ship.

Avon: Earth native.  Crime: embezzlement.  Tried to break the Fed.
banking cartel.  Galaxy's best computer programmer.  Psychopath.
Enlisted in attempt for freedom from prison ship by Blake.

Zen:   Alien computer that runs the Liberator's functions.

Other Additions:

Cally: Auron native.  Telepathic guerrilla.  Liked Blake & believed
in his cause, so joined him.

Tarrant: Ex-Federation Starship Pilot.  Stole a Federation ship and
was found on the Liberator two episodes after Star One.  Having
nowhere else to go, joined Blake.  Very impulsive.

Dayna: Earth native.  Father offended Federation somehow, was in
exile.  Weapons specialist extraordinare.  Has blood feud
wi/Servalan so joined Blake's 7 to get even.

Soolin: Joins crew after death of (whasisname? owned the Scorpio).
Excellent gunwoman, also has blood feud with Federation.  Semi-
assassin.

Orac:  Galaxy's most powerful (if ornery) computer.

As you can pick up from the series at this point, the Federation
(with Servalan in charge!) are the bad guys, very Big-Brotherish.
Earth and all the other planets ruled by the Federation are
controlled by drugged air, food, water, and nothing is done without
approval from the Federation.  See George Orwell's "1984" for a good
idea of what life is like in this time period.

The cast changes (deaths, disappearances, no spoilers here!) as the
series progresses.  It ran for about 3-4 years in Britain, and the
actors (esp.  Paul Darrow and Michael Keating) are very interested
in doing more, should someone pick up the series again.  Pray it
isn't American TV - they usually manage to hash it.

For detailed backgrounds on all the characters, interviews with the
producer, the stars as themselves and as their characters, a few B&W
photos and a full-fledged, pull-all-the-stops episode review, you
want to go buy a copy of

The Blake's 7 Episode Guide

Check all your local bookstores such as comic stores, small
"underground" types like Dark Carnival and the famous Other Change
of Hobbit in Berkeley, and any distributors of British paperbacks,
who should be able to order one for you.  Also check out local
SF/Fantasy cons, as there are always several copies at them.

Should the series not be repeated at wherever you are, many people
have private copies of all the episodes.  Plague your local station
to rerun it though.  Ours is on its 4th go round.

> It's good camp SF, a lot better than Dr. Who, for my taste.

Agreed!  Although I still love the Tom Baker episodes.  Also be
aware there is an exclusive B7 con happening in April here in Calif.
(San Fran area)...send email to me for more info.

Enjoy...I envy you your first viewing!!!

Murdock

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 01:39:58 GMT
From: RLWALD@pucc.princeton.edu (Robert Wald)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
>Mark.Paulk@SEI.CMU.EDU writes:
>
>The Original Crew:
>Vila: Earth native.  Crime: theft.  Vila is a chronic thief and
>alcoholic.  Met Blake while waiting in holding cell for trip to
>Cygnus Alpha (Vila was in the process of liberating Blake's watch).
>Terrible coward.

but very intelligent at times.

>Genna: Crime: smuggling.  Also met Blake while waiting to go to
>Cygnus Alpha.  Had great fondness for Blake.

genna or jenna?

>Avon: Earth native.  Crime: embezzlement.  Tried to break the Fed.
>banking cartel.  Galaxy's best computer programmer.  Psychopath.
>Enlisted in attempt for freedom from prison ship by Blake.

Not a psychopath, though he had psychopathic tendencies. Became more
psychopathic as the show went on. He did, however, believe that he
was a psychopath.

Also, he was the *second* best computer guru in the galaxy.

>Other Additions:
>Tarrant: Ex-Federation Starship Pilot.  Stole a Federation ship and
>was found on the Liberator two episodes after Star One.  Having
>nowhere else to go, joined Blake.  Very impulsive.

the 'romantic hero' type.

>Dayna: Earth native.  Father offended Federation somehow, was in
>exile.  Weapons specialist extraordinare.  Has blood feud
>wi/Servalan so joined Blake's 7 to get even.

Father led rebellion group. Ran out on them when all was lost.
Servalan kills him in 'Aftermath', leading to the blood feud.  Out
of character situations occur when Dayna doesn't kill her.

>The cast changes (deaths, disappearances, no spoilers here!) as the
>series progresses.  It ran for about 3-4 years in Britain, and the
>actors (esp.  Paul Darrow and Michael Keating) are very interested
>in doing more, should someone pick up the series again.  Pray it
>isn't American TV - they usually manage to hash it.

Terry Nation (the creator, who is rumored to have different amounts
of ownership of the show at various times) doesn't want an American
production. we expect more information on the mythical fifth season
at dsv one at the end of January.

>> It's good camp SF, a lot better than Dr. Who, for my taste.

Really depends if its a good episode (there are many) or a clunker.
There are some clunkers, and anybody watching for the first time is
guaranteed to see one. Most of the third season (with the exception
of a few including the best episode) is junk.

>Agreed!  Although I still love the Tom Baker episodes.  Also be
>aware there is an exclusive B7 con happening in April here in
>Calif. (San Fran area)...send email to me for more info.

dsv one is a (sold out) con in New Jersey this month. It will have
most of the major characters (Nation, Darrow, Keating, Gareth, other).

Rob Wald
Bitnet: RLWALD@PUCC.BITNET
Uucp: {ihnp4|allegra}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!RLWALD
Arpa: RLWALD@PUCC.Princeton.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 14:25:52 GMT
From: jco@mosquito.cis.ufl.edu (John C. Orthoefer)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

RLWALD@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
>>Avon: Earth native.  Crime: embezzlement.  Tried to break the Fed.
>>banking cartel.  Galaxy's best computer programmer.  Psychopath.
>>Enlisted in attempt for freedom from prison ship by Blake.
>
>Not a psychopath, though he had psychopathic tendencies. Became
>more psychopathic as the show went on. He did, however, believe
>that he was a psychopath.
>
>Also, he was the *second* best computer guru in the galaxy.

He was the best!  He was caught because his girlfriend was an agent
for the feds.

Humm, Is this why most of the hackers I know don't have girlfriends?

John C. Orthoefer
University of Florida
UUCP: ...ihnp4!codas!ufcsv!beach.cis.ufl.edu!jco
Internet: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 02:40:24 GMT
From: bsu-cs!cmness@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Ness)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

I'm sorry I didn't attach part of the article before this, but bear
with me....  *WARNING* Minor Spoilers.....

Avon isn't the best programmer in the galaxy.  He *might* be the
second, but he isn't the best.  I'm not too sure which episode it
was in, but I know it was after they got Slave, but Avon and the
others went to free the best programmer, who was being held by
Servalan.  Anyhow, when they got him, he was being held for
questions concerning the death of his "assistant", who had been
beheaded (bytheway, a friend just told me the episode was
_Headhunter_).  You later find out that the man is actually a robot
with the ability to controll all machines and computers, including
Slave and Orac, and had stolen the head of its maker.  Its own head
was its control mechanism which hadn't been attached in time.  Avon
later destroyed it.

After that he *might* have become the best....

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 19:56:59 GMT
From: moran@lion..arpa (William L. Moran Jr.)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

cmness@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher Ness) writes:
>I'm sorry I didn't attach part of the article before this, but bear
>with me....  *WARNING* Minor Spoilers.....
>
>Avon isn't the best programmer in the galaxy.  He *might* be the
>second, but he isn't the best.  I'm not too sure which episode it
>was in, but I know it was after they got Slave, but Avon and the
>others went to free the best programmer, who was being held by
>Servalan.  Anyhow, when they got him, he was being held for
>questions concerning the death of his "assistant", who had been
>beheaded (bytheway, a friend just told me the episode was
>_Headhunter_).

No, the guy who built the robot was not described as the best
programmer but as the best something else. By the same token, the
guy who built aurac (a more impressive "computer") was not a
programmer.  Avon is described as the best programmer, and someone
else (I think it was Vila) says: "second best"; someone else then
says who is better, and the response is: "the guy who caught him".
We later find out that he wasn't caught by a better programmer.

>  You later find out that the man is actually a robot with the
>ability to controll all machines and computers, including Slave and
>Orac, and had stolen the head of its maker.  Its own head was its
>control mechanism which hadn't been attached in time.  Avon later
>destroyed it.

Ah no, Avon did NOT destroy it. You misremember the episode; Dana,
Tarrant and Soo Lin destroy it. It's one of those times when a
friend and I cheered KILL KILL (hoping that Avon would kill Tarrant
:).

William L. Moran Jr.
moran@{yale.arpa, cs.yale.edu, yalecs.bitnet}
...{ihnp4!hsi,decvax}!yale!moran

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #19
Date: 18 Jan 88 1006-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 88 1006-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #19
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Asprin & Brooks & Offut &
                         Recommendations (7 msgs) &
                         New Books & Ace Specials &
                         Liavek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 88 10:23:31 EDT
From: Lon <LON%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #8

A lot of good authors and titles have been talked about in our
discussion of fantasy books but there is one author that I haven't
seen mentioned.  Robert Asprin has written a good fantasy series
with quite a bit of humor mixed in.  The series I am referring to is
the Myth series.  It helps to clarify what the people of Earth has
mistakenly named beings they didn't understand.  For example devils
are really called deevils and beings that come from the planet Perv
are called.... (no don't say it you'll make them mad) no they're not
called Perverts they're called Pervects.  They're very sensitive
about that.  It's a very funny book and if you're into magik (I
believe that's how they spell it in the book) and mayhem and a
couple of good jokes, I highly recommend the series..
   Hit or Myth Myth Conceptions Myth Direction Mything Persons
Little Myth Marker If I left any of the titles out I appologise but
I don't have the list with me

Lon

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 18:42:30 GMT
From: drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

kmr@sun.UUCP (Karl MacRae) writes:
>Ok, ok, I'll admit that I only read the "Shanara" books, but they
>were, in my opinion, *so* *bad* that I'm not going to waste any
>more of my valuable reading time on him...

You like Infocom adventures, right? C'mon, of course you do. Then
you'll be thrilled to read "Magic Kingdom for Sale: SOLD!", which
reads as if it were an adventure. The hero gets certain objects,
then goes to certain places and uses them. That's the entire book.
He is lead by the hand the entire way, shows little to no personal
initiative, is dull as a person, and is surrounded by insipid NPCs.
The best thing about the book was the front flap, which conned me
into shelling out $$$ for the hardcover version. If only the person
who wrote the blurb had written the book, instead of Brooks.

I've also read all three (are there more?) of the "Sha-na-na"
series, and I must admit that none of the other books are as bad as
the first. However, I can't remember any details to any of them
(just general plot outlines) - they keep on getting mixed up with
other books with the same general plot (evil invading an idyllic
utopia - my my, how original, and we can stretch this plot for a
whole three books, and even into "MKFS:S" and probably "The Black
Unicorn" as well! People will buy ANYTHING!) such as "Urshurak", a
useless endeavor by the Brothers Hildebrandt (which looked as if it
were stolen from - get this - Brooks!), etc.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Jan 88 23:11:03 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations

Hi,

One series I highly recommend is the _War of the Wizards_ trilogy by
Andrew J. Offut and Richard Lyon.  I've read several of Offut's solo
books, and in my opinion he has never clicked as well alone as with
Lyon.  The heroine, Tiana Highrider, has stuck in my memory for
several years now: beautiful, bold as brass, and never killed anyone
she didn't dislike.  Don't expect any introspection: this is all
full speed ahead Swords and Sorcery action.  The books in order are:

   Demon In the Mirror
   The Eyes of Sarsis
   Web of the Spider

If you only get one, get the last, _The Web of the Spider_ .  It's
the best of the three and sports a great Rowena cover that actually
has something to do with the story and perfectly captures the feel
of the character.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 17:40:59 GMT
From: dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Fantasy recommendations



In my judgement, Walton's "Mabinogion" books are not a patch on the
works of Kenneth Morris. Unfortunately, Lin Carter Discovered Walton
first, and Ballantine was not interested in more Mabinogion
offerings. This is particularly irritating, as the only
approximately accessible edition was the Newcastle reprint of THE
FATES OF THE PRINCES OF DYFED, a retelling which weaves the First
Branch into a soul-raising tale of more-than-oriental splendor. (The
author's name appears in the Cymricized spelling "Cenydd Morus").
The other book, THE BOOK OF THE THREE DRAGONS, was reprinted in an
Arno edition which I completely missed. (Anyone out there able to
advise on locating it?)

  So far nobody seems to have mentioned these:
  David Lindsay, A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS. This is the outre
interplanetary fantasy which showed Lewis "what outer space is good
for". Haunting and fascinating.
  Judith Tarr, "The Hound and the Falcon", in three volumes
    THE ISLE OF GLASS
    BEYOND THE GOLDEN HORN
    THE HOUNDS OF GOD
   Superficially this resembles the "Deryni" series-- "fairy" people
feared and persecuted in an alternate medieval Europe. However, it
is done with vastly more insight and sensitivity, and the last
volume is full of the theme of death as "The Gift of Men". The
protagonist, who starts as an elf monk struggling with his natures,
beats Duncan MacLain all hollow.

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 07:31:52 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

Some of my favorites that I haven't seen mentioned:

Emma Bull: War for the Oaks

   Fantasy blended into a contemporary setting.  A wonderful novel.

Patricia K. McKillip:
   The Riddle-Master of Hed
   Heir of Sea and Fire
   Harpist in Wind

      A trilogy.  Fantasy with a light, an almost lyric quality to
      the prose.  Also the most tightly woven books I've read in
      terms of details all fitting together.  Read them.

   Forgotten Beasts of Eld

      Unrelated, but if you like the above trilogy, you'll love
      this.  Same type of atmosphere-generating prose.

Robin McKinley:
   The Hero and the Crown
   The Blue Sword

      I'm running out of superlatives.  Just read them.  They're set
      in the same world.  The Blue Sword was written first but is
      later in history than the Hero and the Crown.  They can be
      read in any order though.

Guy Gavriel Kay:
   The Summer Tree
   The Wandering Fire
   The Longest Road

      The best recent High Fantasy in my opinion.  Celtic myth
      pattern.  Tolkienesque in scope but with emotional intensity.
      The first time I've read fantasy that brought tears to my
      eyes.  I'm not sure about the title of the third book as it
      hasn't come out in paperback yet.  I may get it in hardback as
      I'm tired of waiting.

Judith Tarr:
   The Isle of Glass
   The Golden Horn
   The Hounds of God

      Arrgh.  It's getting harder to do these books justice.  Buy
      them.  Read them.  Pass them out to your friends.  (Laurie
      Sefton has a good pico-review of these in the recent issue of
      Otherrealms, accessible in rec.mag.otherrealms).

Roger Zelazny:
   The Amber Series  (Amber Classic and New Amber :-)

      Unlike high fantasy, Roger Zelazny tells story from a very
      individualistic viewpoint -- that of the protagonist.  I like
      to think of it as the "Real World Fantasy" style.  No pure
      motives, high ideals.  Just muddling through as best one can
      driven by very human motives.  He tells great stories, though.
      Make sure you read them in the right order.  There are 5 in
      the first set, and the second set is still in progress (2 now
      and counting up).  You may want to wait on them.

   Creatures of Light and Darkness
   Lord of Light

      These are hard to categorize.  LoL, especially is almost more
      sf than fantasy, but the atmosphere of both is
      fantasy-flavored.  They're both classics and very good.

Steven Brust:
   Jhereg
   Yendi
   Teckla

      Would you believe a series with an assassin as the good guy?
      More "real world fantasy".  Try it.  You'll like it.  Beware
      though.  Teckla gets a bit deeper and more painful than the
      first two.  Read them in the order listed.

   Brokedown Palace

      This one grew on me.  Call it mythic fantasy.  It's good.


Well, that's all for now.  Should keep you busily entertained I
hope.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 88 15:36 PST
From: GOD it's good to be back
From: <MCREAGHE%HMCVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Fantasy recommendation

I highly recommend _The Talisman_ by King and Straub.  It's good
fantasy.

Mark Creaghe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 88 15:40 PST
From: GOD it's good to be back
From: <MCREAGHE%HMCVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Another fantasy recommendation

Spellsinger series by Alan Dean Foster
Spellsinger
The Day of the Dissonance
The (M-something-or-other) of the Magician
The Path of the Perambulator

Mark Creaghe

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 01:13:00 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDoanld)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

Another that I dont think I have seen mentioned is Mythago Woods by
Robert Holdstock (?sp).  One of the best mistakes I ever made when I
bought this book.

Bryan McDonald
ccdbryan!ucdavis!ucbvax
Univ. of California @ Davis

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 11:54:32 GMT
From: mjm@hpqtdla.hp.com (Murdo McKissock)
Subject: Re: Must-Reads?

> Another category - Books about Science Fiction.

Yes indeed.  Let me mention David Hartwell's "Age of Wonder", an
excellent informative book about SF history, fandom and the
interaction between SF and the world outside SF.

Murdo McKissock

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 10:22:15 EST
From: rang%cps45x@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang)
Subject: Re: Must-Reads? (13:4)

  I would expand the category "Early works" to include works from
other time periods (say, pre-1920s and every 10 years or so since).
It is interesting to read, say, some books/stories from the 40s,
50s, and 60s to see how SF has evolved, both independently and in
connection with the changes in society.

Suggestions:

  "The Wailing Asteroid" by Murray Leinster.

  Also a story that appeared in an Ace Double (?) called something
  like "The Mutant Plague" [???].  It involved a medic who
  discovered a plot to take over colony planets-- anyone remember
  it? I think the other story was "Collision Course".  Reading
  through the Ace Doubles is a good way to become familiar with
  obscure authors, actually...

  "Rockets in Ursa Major" by Fred & Geoffrey Hoyle.  A so-so plot,
  but well-written.

Anton Rang
rang@cps.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 05:23:54 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Misc Comments Re: new books on the horizon

A [relatively] small number of comments on the Locus book list which
Juan Faidley posted:

>Crystal Sword by Adrienne Martine-Barnes

This still hasn't arrived!  As a sequel (I presume) to "The Fire
Sword" this is a must-read.

>Arrow's Fall by Mercedes Lackey

Completes the trilogy begun in "Arrows of the Queen".  (If you
haven't read that yet you're missing something good.)  Some
important things are left hanging in the air, so further sequels are
quite possible.

>Fleet of the Damned by Allan Cole and Chris Bunch

Another Sten novel?

>The Silicon Mage by Barbara Hambly

Sequel to "The Silent Tower".  I seem to be one of the few people
who disliked that book.  (I hate books whose protagonists figure out
in the last chapter what the reader realized by page fifty.)

>Riders of the Wind by Jack Chalker (A sequal to Where the Change
>Winds Blow?)

Yes.  Expect the trilogy to be completed this coming fall.

>Barbary by Vonda McIntyre

A good children's book but a disappointment if read as fiction for
grown-ups.  Try the children's library.

>Daughter of the Empire by Raymind Feist and Janny Wurts

This was worth getting in hardback, but if you haven't don't miss
the paperback!  Feist's "Magician" trilogy has several references to
the "game of the council" going on in the background, back in the
empire.  In this book the game is in the foreground and the
Midkemian war is in the background.  I liked this book better than
"Magician" even.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 08:26:16 GMT
From: wenn@FRODO.GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU (John Wenn)
Subject: Original Ace Specials

Does anyone have a complete list of the original Ace Specials?  This
was a great series of books edited by Terry Carr in the late 60's /
early 70's.  The books that I know of (either through owning Ace
Special editions of them, or by the "Further Ace Specials"
advertisement at the end of the books) are:

1968  Anthony & Margoff      The Ring
1967  Blish & N. Knight      A Torrent of Faces
1971  John Brunner           The Traveler in Black
1969  John Brunner           The Jagged Orbit
1968  D. G. Compton          Synthajoy
1970  D. G. Compton          Chronocules
1970  D. G. Compton          The Silent Multitude
1970  D. G. Compton          The Steel Crocodile
1969  Avram Davidson         The Island Under the Earth
1969  Avram Davidson         The Phoenix and the Mirror
1969  Philip K. Dick         The Preserving Machine
1970  Ron Goulart            After Things Fell Apart
1968  R. A. Lafferty         Past Master
1970  R. A. Lafferty         Nine Hundred Grandmothers
1969  R. A. Lafferty         Fourth Mansions
1968  Ursula Le Guin         A Wizard of Earthsea
1969  Ursula Le Guin         The Left Hand of Darkness
1969  Michael Moorcock       The Black Corridor
1968  Alexei Panshin         Rite of Passage
1968  Keith Roberts          Pavane
1970  Joanna Russ            And Chaos Died
1968  Joanna Russ            Picnic on Paradise
1966  James Schmitz          The Witches of Karres
1968  James Schmitz          The Demon Breed
1968  Bob Shaw               The Two-Timers
1969  Bob Shaw               The Palace of Eternity
1970  Bob Shaw               One Million Tomorrows
1967  Clifford Simak         Why Call Them Back From Heaven?
1968  John Sladek            Mechasm
1966  Gertrude Friedberg     The Revolving Boy
1958  Wilson Tucker          The Lincoln Hunters
1970  Wilson Tucker          The Year of the Quiet Sun
1969  Roger Zelazny          Isle of the Dead

This series is to be distinguished from two other Ace Special
series: first a numbered series (NOT edited by Carr) published in
the middle 70's, and the NEW Ace Specials published in the middle
80's (that WAS edited by Carr).  A really incomplete list of the
70's series and a complete list of the 80's series is given below:

1975  Mary Staton            From the Legend of Biel (#1)
1975  Bob Shaw               Orbitsville (#10)

1984  William Gibson         Neuromancer
1987  Loren MacGregor        The Net
1986  Jack McDevitt          The Hercules Text
1984  Kim Stanley Robinson   The Wild Shore
1984  Scholz & Harcourt      Palimpsests
1984  Lucius Shepard         Green Eyes
1985  Michael Swanwick       In the Drift
1984  Howard Waldrop         Them Bones

So, back to my question: Does anyone know of any books that were in
the Ace Specials series that I don't know about?  I'm most
interested in the original series.  Thanks

John
arpa:  wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 1988 16:30:45 EST (Mon)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.arpa>
Subject: Liavek

In SFL V13 #5, Beth Eades <mtgzz!eme> recommends the Liavek series,
mentioning that there were only two published so far.  Presumably
she means *Liavek* and *Players of Luck*, and I'll agree they are
excellent.

The third volume, *Wizard's Row*, came out a month or two ago.  I
was disappointed.  The fables in the first two volumes (remember
``The Wandering Eye'') were discontinued, and the stories in the
third seemed depressing and pointless.

Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #20
Date: 18 Jan 88 1021-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 88 1021-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Clarke (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 88 14:47 EST
From: RANDOM/HAMPSHIRE COLLEGE
From: <DPARMENTER%HAMPVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: 2010 travesties...

In regards to 2010, the movie was extraordinarily unfaithful to the
book.  The entire Chinese spaceship incident was removed, there was
no 'Rushlish', which was a singularly amusing part of the book,
which I suspect may have been Clarke's tip of the hat to 'Clockwork
Orange' (which practically fits into a Kubrick continuity of
sorts!), and worst of all, the silly subplot about the
American-Russina hostilities was ADDED.

I suspect that Kubrick could have done something with it, but it
would have been a long, drawn out process that we probably wouldn't
see for about 3 or 4 years from today!! :-)

When I think about Clarke's continuity, I tend to go from 2001 the
film, to 2010, the book.  Clarke seems to do the same thing, with
the Jupiter/Saturn switcheroo and some other minor points.  Clarke
seems to have chosen to keep his own explanation for the monolith's
'history', which is the main reason for reading the 2001 novel in
the first place.  Clarke once said something to the effect of "2001
was 10% me, 10% special-effects and 80% Stanley Kubrick".  I may
have those percentages off slightly.

Dan Parmenter
box 808
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA  01002
BITNET:  dparmenter@hampvms
CSNET:   dparmenter%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP:    ...seismo!hampvms.bitnet!dparmenter
INET:  dparmenter%hampvms.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 17:38:38 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft in 2010

blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback) writes:
>I believe that the original poster was refering to something that
>bothered me too at the time; namely, that the application of the
>centrifuge in the movie was totally inconsistent.  The gravity in
>the scenes aboard the Russian ship only effected certain objects,
>and come and went at random.

I got the impression that the original poster learned all his
science from watching SF movies and thought there really was such a
thing as "artificial gravity".  TV and movie spaceships always have
such a feature, not because it's scientifically plausible, but
because it's too much work to simulate free fall or centrifigal
"gravity".  To this day, 2001 is the only movie that ever took a
serious stab at it.  The inconsistencies you mention were plainly
the effect of 2010 not having the resources to make every detail
consistent with weightlessness.

> There was the obligatory "floating object, thus establishing
>space" scene, but all the rest of the objects and the crew fell and
>walked normally.

An inconsistency that would be conspicuous to an SF freak like you
or me, but invisible to 99% of the movie audience.  Obviously, they
just didn't want to expend the effort to train actors to act like
they were being held to the floor soley by their velcro slippers.  I
suspect it's a lot of work; you may remember that in the 2001 Pan Am
spaceship scenes, only one character was ever shown actually walking
around in free fall conditions.  And I'll bet few people in the
audience understood why she was walking so strangely.

Still, I very much disliked 2010 for this sort of thing, as I gather
you did.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 88 9:18:00 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Walking in zero-G (re Clarke & 2010)

Reference the comments made in digest #12 on the unrealistic
portrayal of velcro-shod astro/cosmonauts walking in zero-G: I
always worried that trying to walk in a weightless environment when
the soles of your feet were held to the surface (with velcro,
magnetic fields, strange sticky stuff, whatever) would cause an
awful lot of sprained or broken ankles. If your entire upper body
mass with full momentum moves around like you were in a regular
G-field, but the soles of your feet are held still, there is a great
deal of unnatural stress placed on the ankles.  Does anyone know of
any work done with this, perhaps in Skylab or by the Soviets, where
this was actually tested?

Personally, as someone with bad feet, I envy a zero-G environment
where I wouldn't have to use my legs or feet at all!

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 05:59:30 GMT
From: bty!yost@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Yost)
Subject: Should I read 2061?

I like Clarke a lot, and have read much of his work.  I really like
2001, the book.  I liked 2010 less.  I'm afraid to read 2061 and be
disillusioned.  Any feedback (via email) on 2061 would be helpful.
For example, is it better than 2010?

Thanks to any kind souls who respond...

Brian T. Yost
attmail!bty!yost
{bellcore,harpo,princeton}!motown!bty!yost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 17:19:56 EST
From: Chettri@UDEL.EDU
Subject: IMPERIAL EARTH

Has any one noticed differences between the hardbound and paperback
versions of IMPERIAL EARTH by Arthur C. Clarke ? I've noted two
differences

a) Duncan goes on a 'trek' through the forest with some other guys

b) Duncan gives a speech to some ladies ("Daughters of the
   Revolution"; correct me if I'm wrong).

Are there any reasons for the differences ? Have readers noted other
differences?

While we're on the subject of Clarke, I'd like to list in order what
I consider his best works

a) Fountains of Paradise
b) Childhoods End
c) Imperial Earth
e) 2001

All others are minor works

Please feel free to agree/disagree but please give reasons.

Sincerely,

Samir Chettri

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 16:04:48 GMT
From: interlan!deem@rutgers.edu (Mike Deem)
Subject: Re: Walking in zero-G (re Clarke & 2010)

>If your entire upper body mass with full momentum moves around like
>you were in a regular G-field, but the soles of your feet are held
>still, there is a great deal of unnatural stress placed on the
>ankles.  Does anyone know of any work done with this, perhaps in
>Skylab or by the Soviets, where this was actually tested?

In Skylab, the astronauts did most of their work anchored to the
floor.  The bottoms of their shoes had grooved triangle shaped
blocks about 1/2" thick attached to them.  They inserted these into
triangle holes in the floor then twisted to lock in place.  As far
as I know, there were no injuries from this.

The velcro was reserved for fastening tools and such the utility
belts!

Mike Deem

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 12:46:24 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-.... (minor 2010
Subject: spoiler)

c2h5oh@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt) writes:
>bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>>I mean, who needs a nuclear powered rocket like discovery when you
>>have artificial gravity you can switch on and off whenever you
>>want.
>
>Say what?  There was no artificial gravity in either the book or
>the movie of either 2001 or 2010;

I was referring to the way that people walked around in the Russian
ship in the film under a 1G gravitational field and suddenly left
pens hanging in mid air.

Also, watch the scenes in the Discovery's pod bay. There is a 1G
gravitational field keeping the actors on the floor, and coffee in
cups. (The director seems to have been under the delusion that the
pod bay was in the centrifuge.)

Arthur C Clarke's book 2010 will make a good film some day, but the
film 2010 wasn't it.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 19:08:49 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: IMPERIAL EARTH

Chettri@UDEL.EDU writes:
>Has any one noticed differences between the hardbound and paperback
>versions of IMPERIAL EARTH by Arthur C. Clarke ? I've noted two
>differences
>a) Duncan goes on a 'trek' through the forest with some other guys
>b) Duncan gives a speech to some ladies ("Daughters of the
>   Revolution"; correct me if I'm wrong).
>
>Are there any reasons for the differences ? Have readers noted
>other differences?

What differences? In (a), I assume you mean the time when Duncan
takes a mystery trip to the "Africam Jungles" B-), and in (b) when
Duncan makes the speech to the DAR and is distracted by one woman's
dead-goldfish-adorned hat? Both scenes were in both the paperback
and the hardcover. (I originally bought the paperback when the book
came out, sold it to a used bookstore eons ago, then recently took
it from the library in hardback).

Imperial Earth is a rambling book with little plot, focused somewhat
on the characters, but mainly on the sights and sounds of Solar
System in years to come. Some of his best character work ever.

>While we're on the subject of Clarke, I'd like to list in order
>what I consider his best works

>a) Fountains of Paradise

A novel with a single gimmick, a tower to the stars. The historical
flashback was sort of interesting, and I thought it cute that Clarke
would set in the novel in Sri Lanka, of all places (that being where
he lives). This book is largely a travelogue.

>b) Childhoods End

The portents at the beginning were fabulous, but the ending seemed a
little sudden. No gradual evolution? ... and a good helping of
ethnocentrism as well.

>c) Imperial Earth

Another travelogue - but this time of the Solar System and the
United States in the 23rd century.

>e) 2001

(The book was necessary for the understanding of the film. Kubrick
would disagree; he believes (rightly) that the film should stand on
its own as an emotional statement of discovery and hope, but to
catch all the references to the things Clarke brought to the film,
you need the book.)

I'd include "The City and the Stars/Against the Fall of the Night" -
both books have the same plot, but differ in details. I've read them
both but can never keep them straight (in one, the main character is
a nearly immortal teenager, the first one born in Diaspar for
millenia; in the other, there are many children, but in both he
travels to a pastoral dystopia whose inhabitants are somewhat
telepathic...). "Against the Fall of the Night" was bundled with a
novella titled "The Lion of Comarre" which has nothing to do with
the first story, but still should be included.

Clarke is a fantastic short storiest - and it's for these that he
first became famous (as with most authors of his generation...) "The
Nine Billion Names of God", the "Tales of the White Hart", "The
Sentinel", that one where aliens come to warn Earth of impending
doom, only to find everyone gone already... The best thing to do is
to buy and read everything Clarke has ever done, including
nonfiction. "It's the only way to be sure!"

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 18:37:09 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: Should I read 2061?

yost@bty.UUCP (Brian Yost) writes:
>I like Clarke a lot, and have read much of his work.  I really like
>2001, the book.  I liked 2010 less.  I'm afraid to read 2061 and be
>disillusioned.  Any feedback (via email) on 2061 would be helpful.
>For example, is it better than 2010?

I've read 2061: Odyssey Three, and since I've heard nothing about it
on the net so far I would like to share my opinions.

First of all, I liked 2010: Odyssey Two, mainly because it sustained
the perspective and direction of its predecessor. 2061, however,
while being an interesting read, falls apart in these respects.
Clarke clearly seems to be writing with no purpose in mind. (In THE
ODYSSEY FILE, Clarke confides in Peter Hyams that Del Rey is trying
to get him to write a third odyssey on the strength of the second
book's success...I'd hate to think that that's the only reason he
did it, but it seems that way.)

In particular, while the cover-flap promises a third encounter wth
Bowman and Hal et al., they aren't mentioned for the first 2/3 of
the book. It reduces the saga to a sideshow for what Clarke seems to
think is a grander spectacle, i.e. political intrigue and Halley's
Comet.

I guess that means unless you're a die-hard fan (like moi), wait for
the paperback.

(I, on the other hand, ordered the hardback version of 2010 to form
a set with the 2061 hardback. Anybody else ever do things like
that?)

On a similar note, I am as I said a great fan of Clarke's but I just
started reading his books a few years ago. I hate the fact that he
is treated as the minor member of the BIG THREE (at least where I've
been). Is there anyone else out there who feels like I do. I really
would like to see more Clarke stuff on the net.

Also, I noticed on the net a week ago that the third odyssey was
referred to as 20,001, by someone who had written that before the
release of 2061.  Was that speculation or was it at one time
actually called that?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 03:07:31 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: 2010 travesties...

Overall, the film version of '2010' was very different than '2001'
in that Hyams was conscious of making a commercial film rather than
a good one.

In reading THE ODYSSEY FILE (which is a great read and takes 20 min.
to finish), one discovers that Hyams' reasons for including the
US-USSR rivalry, etc. are all based on whether the audience will
accept the film or not. Funny, '2001' never had that feel to it.

Another major mistake was that most of the dialogue in the film
seemd superfluous, especially compared to its predecessor with its
long (and realistic) stretches of silence. I mean, was it just me
who thought that Floyd was overplayed, or Millson was a travesty, or
Curnow should have left his mouth shut on occasion...just think of
the impact Brailosky's ...sorry, Brailovsky's death would have had
if no-one had said a word.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 22:22:15 GMT
From: mears@hpindda.hp.com (David B. Mears)
Subject: Re: IMPERIAL EARTH

> While we're on the subject of Clarke, I'd like to list in order
> what I consider his best works
>
> a) Fountains of Paradise
> b) Childhoods End
> c) Imperial Earth
> e) 2001

I think my personal favorite is:  _The City and the Stars_

> All others are minor works

Minor?  Minor?  What do you mean minor?

David B. Mears
Hewlett-Packard
Cupertino CA
{hplabs, ihnp4!hpfcla}!hpda!mears

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 23:23:33 GMT
From: mayya@hpindda.hp.com (Ajit Mayya)
Subject: Re: IMPERIAL EARTH

Chettri@UDEL.EDU writes:
> a) Fountains of Paradise
> b) Childhoods End
> c) Imperial Earth

Since you left a slot here I shall take the liberty of filling it
in.
   d) Rendezvous with Rama

A must for all sci-fi lovers.

Ajit Mayya

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 18:23:00 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: IMPERIAL EARTH

Chettri@UDEL.EDU writes:
>While we're on the subject of Clarke, I'd like to list in order
>what I consider his best works
>
>a) Fountains of Paradise
>b) Childhoods End
>c) Imperial Earth
>e) 2001
>
>All others are minor works

** Spoilers follow.  You are warned. **

I dunno.  I'm partial to _Rendezvous_With_Rama_.  This was a
fantastic book in many respects.  Among them, he wrote with a very
humorous style even in serious points.  The fact that the human race
was inconsequential to the Ramans' ship is particularly humorous
because we (humans) got so worked up at being visited by an alien
species.

Further, the design of the book was particularly good.  My favorite
chapter break went something like this:

   "... It was a wonderful plan.  And it failed completely."

This immediately draws the reader on to the next chapter to find out
just why it could have failed.

The overlap in history between the two Endeavors was interesting,
although I felt it could have been better developed.

My last reason for liking this book was its method of ending.
Paraphrased: "But he couldn't help thinking ... Ramans did
everything in threes...."

Will there ever be a Rama II?  III?  Leaves you hoping.  At any
rate, my vote for #1 is _Rama_.

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #21
Date: 18 Jan 88 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 88 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:

                   Films - Lightyears (2 msgs) &
                           Special Effects (5 msgs) &
                           Quintet & Blade Runner (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 14:50:55 GMT
From: dcn@ihlpm.att.com (Dave Newkirk)
Subject: Light Years movie query

I picked up a flyer for the Music Box theater in Chicago advertising
a new animated movie called `Light Years'.  It was created, written
and directed by Rene' Laloux (who did `Fantastic Planet'), and
adapted by Isaac Asimov!  I'm not sure what role Asimov actually had
in the film.  It will be shown between February 26 and March 5 at
the Music Box.  Has anyone else heard about this?

Dave Newkirk
ihnp4!ihlpm!dcn

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 21:26:00 GMT
From: inmet!justin@rutgers.edu
Subject: LightYears -- the movie

So -- on a topic *completely* unrelated to the three or four that
have earned 100 (+ or - an order of magnitude) notes each -- does
*anyone* know *anything* about "LightYears"? I have only been
reading the net for a couple of months, so it's possible that this
has come and gone in discussion. If so, could someone please just
send me a review by mail?

All I know about it is what I saw in the coming attractions at the
Coolidge Corner Cinema in Brookline, MA. It appears to be an
animated SF feature length film, written by none other than Isaac
Asimov! I was rather taken aback, because I have never heard of this
thing. Is this an old film being re- released, or a new one that has
received piss-poor publicity?

Any information would be welcomed. I like a lot of Asimov's work,
but I detest a lot of his other work, and I don't want to drop $11
for me and my wife to see it, only to be terribly disappointed.

Mark Waks
Intermetrics, Inc.
(617) 661-1840, x4704
{ihnp4, mirror, ima}!inmet!justin
justin@inmet.inmet.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 87 19:32:46 GMT
From: ndmath!milo@RUTGERS.EDU (Greg Corson)
Subject: Movie special effects (looking for examples of certain ones)

I'm looking for some movies to use as examples of various types of
special effects.  The movies don't have to be GOOD examples (or even
good movies), just examples.

Titles of any movies (or cartoons/animation) where the following
effects are used would be appreciated:

1. Human transformation effects, where the appearance of a person is
   changed I'm mainly interested in effects where a person is
   transformed into a different looking person (ie: Bob turns into
   Fred, average looking girl turns into beautiful girl...etc.).
   Rather than effects where people are turned into animals.

2. Giants.  Where a person is made to look giant sized or made to
   look like they are growing bigger.

3. Minatures.  Where someone is made to look very small or to look
   like they are shrinking.

Any references would be appreciated, particularly if the movie is
likely to be available in the average video store.  Remember that I
don't care too much about the quality of the effects or the movie,
I'm looking for both good and bad examples.  Also, I don't too much
care about the kind of movie the effect appears in, anything from G
rated films to "adult" movies is fine...I don't care about the
rating, ANY reference will be appreciated.

Greg Corson
19141 Summers Drive
South Bend, IN 46637
(219) 277-5306 (weekdays till 6 PM eastern)
{pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 87 03:52:50 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!celia!charlie@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Charlie Gibson)
Subject: Re: Movie special effects (looking for examples of certain
Subject: ones)

milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes:
>I'm looking for some movies to use as examples of various types of
>special effects.  The movies don't have to be GOOD examples (or
>even good movies), just examples.
>1. Human transformation effects, where the appearance of a person
>is changed

Well, "Innerspace" has a hilarious transformation where Martin Short
transforms into "Cowboy", an Iranian arms dealer.  It is definitely
one of the funniest/best I have seen (Created by Rob "The
Howling/Twilight Zone" Bottin).  Also, Rick "Schlock/Greystoke/Star
Wars/King Kong" Baker's Werewolf transformation in "An American
Werewolf in London" is pretty hard to beat.

>2. Giants.  Where a person is made to look giant sized or made to
>look like

"The Amazing Colossal Beast", "Attack of the 50-ft. woman" are
pretty funny (not intentionally).  As far as cartoons go, "Beanstalk
Bunny" starring Bugs & Daffy has a gigantic Elmer Fudd. ("It's a
LIE! *HE'S* Jack -- Jack RABBIT!) "Alice in Wonderland" has a giant
Alice scene, too.

>3. Minatures.  Where someone is made to look very small or to look
>like they

"The Incredible Shrinking Man" and its remake "The Incredible
Shrinking Woman" are the two that come immediately to mind.  All of
the "King Kong" series of movies have scenes with tiny (Compared to
Kong) people.  Also, one of the "classic" movies with tiny people
was Disney's "Darby O'Gill and the Little People."  Some people
still think that this is the best "miniature" movie ever made. (They
used a lot of Practical [instead of optical] effects for the little
people, which helps a lot).  Peter Sellers is great in this film,
too.

Interesting Note: I was watching a rerun of "Davy & Goliath" this
morning and noticed two interesting credits: Richard Baker and Doug
Beswick, two "monstrously" successful people responsible for
redefining the state of the art in creature effects.  (Beswick
handles most of Baker's mechanics, like the ape limbs in
"Greystoke")

Charlie Gibson
celia!charlie@lll-tis.ARPA
ames!!lll-tis!celia!charlie
randvax!celia!charlie

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 87 22:10:53 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Movie special effects (looking for examples of certain
Subject: ones)

milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes:
>I'm looking for some movies to use as examples of various types of
>special effects.  The movies don't have to be GOOD examples (or
>even good movies), just examples.
>1. Human transformation effects, where the appearance of a person
>is changed

"Deathstalker" - warrior turns into Barbi Benton. Joe Bob commands
you to check it out.

Most soap operas B-)

>2. Giants.  Where a person is made to look giant sized or made to
>   look like they are growing bigger.
>
>3. Minatures.  Where someone is made to look very small or to look
>like they are shrinking.

The ones I can think of are (a) either incredibly obvious, or (b) so
obscure I can't remember the titles - like when those early sixties
teenagers grow into giants.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jan 88 13:48:21 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Movie special effects (looking for examples of certain
Subject: ones)

milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes:
> Titles of any movies (or cartoons/animation) where the following
> effects are used would be appreciated:
> 1. a person is transformed into a  different looking person

Any version of DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE, SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY
COMES.  The classic was an old Twilight Zone episode called "The
Four of Us Are Dying."  EXCALIBUR.  There must be lots of others.

> 2. Giants. [specifically films actually showing the growing.]

Obviously any version of ALICE IN WONDERLAND.  AMAZING COLOSSAL MAN
(gradual growth).  JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS.  BOCCACIO 70.

> 3. Minatures.  Where someone is made to look very small or to
>    look like they are shrinking.

ATTACK OF THE PUPPET PEOPLE.  Again any version of ALICE IN
WONDERLAND.  DEVIL DOLL.  Any party I attend with Evelyn.  FANTASTIC
VOYAGE.  SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD.  INNERSPACE.  Any version of
GULLIVER'S TRAVELS (esp. THREE WORLDS OF GULLIVER).  PHANTOM PLANET.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 88 08:28:39 GMT
From: Michael_Allen_King@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Movie special effects (looking for examples of certain
Subject: ones

Mark:
   Shame on you!  For #3 <miniatures & shrinking people> you forgot
"The Incredible Shrinking Man"!

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 05:42:27 GMT
From: Wiley-E-Coyote@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: movie request ( Spoilers )

> Can anyone tell me about a movie called Quintet, with Paul Newman?
> I saw it on the video rack this morning and it looked like it
> could be interesting, but I wanted to see if anyone had heard of
> it before I go and rent the thing.  thnx

I rented it a while back and was somewhat disappointed.  Robert
Altman created a rather depressing, slow moving, and hard to follow
plot of a future faced with an upcoming ice age ( might have been
nuclear winter, I'm not sure ).  The acting seemed rather stiff to
me and wasn't one of Newman's better performances.  To give you an
idea of the mood that is being set, there are scenes where starving
packs of dogs are going over man frozen corpses left lying on the
streets since the dwindling numbers of people only care about
playing this game of death ( kind of like people's apathetic
obsession with TV in Max Headroom only more morbid ).  I hadn't
heard much of the movie before I saw it and I think the reason why
is that it might be one that Newman and Altman would rather forget.
It might be worth a buck from Wherehouse, but not much more.

Mike Neff

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 06:50:20 GMT
From: leadsv!neff@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael Neff)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

john13@garfield.UUCP (John Russell) writes:
>I know this discussion was a while back, but it was just on locally
>and I saw it for the first time in several years.
>
> ( stuff deleted )
>
>Geez, that was a good movie. Glad I saw it again, since I picked up
>virtually none of the meaning the first time I saw it.

_Bladerunner_ was one of my favorite SF movies, too!  It's the kind
of movie that grows on you over time.  I think it was beyond a lot
of people when it first came out ( Heck, most of us were just
starting to use PC's then ).  It certainly has to be right up there
with _Alien_ series as best SF movie of the eighties.  It's too bad
that some critics gave it a bad rap for being too violent and
couldn't appreciate some quality adult science fiction of substance.
Visuals were stunning and as it turned out, the cast features a lot
of well-known (now) and good acting talent ( H. Ford, R. Hauer, W.
Sanderson, S. Young, D. Hannah, and police chief from Miami Vice -
can't remember his name ) which is unusual for SF films.  As
cyberpunk becomes more established as the new wave subgenre of
science fiction this should be quite a cult film in the years to
come.

Question: Does anyone know if Ridley Scott plans to make a sequel?
Although the somewhat unrealistic ending was one of the weak points
of the movie ( and certainly not what Philip K. Dick had in mind in
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ ), something in me wants more
of this world they created.  A film like this well done ( maybe
written by Gibson of Neuromancer fame ) would be great!  Bring back
some of the original cast and get Vangelis to write the soundtrack
too.  Any spies out there with info?

Mike Neff
neff@leadsv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 03:35:06 GMT
From: ames!aurora!irate.user@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

neff@leadsv.UUCP (Michael Neff) writes:
> Question: Does anyone know if Ridley Scott plans to make a sequel?

There will be no sequel.  The movie did so poorly at the box office,
and there has been so little interest in it outside of cult fandom,
that a sequel was out of the question.  Besides, Philip K. Dick is
no more, and his was the driving force (combined with Ridley Scott)
that made the world of Blade Runner what it is.

Had Philip K. Dick lived to oversee the ending of the movie, perhaps
he would have ended it with the death of Roy, instead of Rachael and
Deckard driving off together.  Roy's death would have been a much
more PKD-ish ending.  Compare, also, the novel to the movie...they
are worlds apart.  They also tend to explain each other.

Murdock

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 00:42:22 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

neff@leadsv.LEADS.LMSC.COM.UUCP (Michael Neff) writes:
> Although the somewhat unrealistic ending was one of the weak points
> of the movie

There is an interesting article about this on the back cover of the
fancy laser disc release of Blade Runner.  ( I don't know if it is
on the regular laser disc release or on the video tape release. ).

The article mentions several other endings that were in the script
at various points, including one where it is implied that Deckard is
also a replicant.  That would have been an interesting one.

Tim Smith
tim@ism780c.isc.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 21:26:27 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

> The article mentions several other endings that were in the script
> at various points, including one where it is implied that Deckard
> is also a replicant.  That would have been an interesting one.

This is interesting.  I have had the opinion that they tried to
imply this in the movie, but verrrrry subtly.  In watching the
movie, it appears that the replicants' eyes get a gold glow in them
when they have strong emotions (more like a gold dot in the center
of each eye).  Before I had read the book, I suspected that this was
the sort of thing that the Voight-Kamf (sp?) test looked for (I
suspect the glow was there for the audience's sake).  With me so
far?  There's a scene in the middle of the movie at Deckard's
apartment where Rachel says something like "How do you know your
human memories are yours?", and we see Deckard in the back of the
scene, appearing out of focus, HOWEVER, you can see the gold glow in
his eyes...

Now, this may have been a trick in lighting, but I doubt that it
would have happened so often if it were.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 14:59:22 GMT
From: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

From: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.)
>[...] Speculations of Dekkard being a replicant, and references to
>replicants eyes...>

   What about Holden(the Blade Runner who Leon shot)?  His eyes were
the first we see in the film, and they glow some(no not from the
flames either).  I think Ridley Scott was just trying to direct our
attention to eyes in general, not to some glowing aspect of
replicants, but to the fact that a replicant's eyes betrayed
him/her.  Eyes crop up everywhere in the film, notice what genetic
merchant Roy and Leon go to see while they are seeking Tyrrell.
Eyes do play an important part in the film, but I don't think the
glowing was anything but peoples retina's reflecting from bright
direct lighting when their pupils were dialated from the darkness
around them(just like how some peoples eyes turn red in pictures and
they look like the Anti-Christ)

Colin
ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #22
Date: 18 Jan 88 1053-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 88 1053-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #22
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:

          Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Eddings & Ellison &
                  Emerson (2 msgs) & Herck & Hughart (3 msgs) &
                  Lee (2 msgs) & MacLeod (2 msgs) &
                  MacCaffrey & Turtledove & Vance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 12:35:09 EST
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Freedman)
Subject: Ys

  I've been reading Poul Anderson's _Ys_ books, and I have a
question. Is Anderson making things up completely or was there a Ys?
If there was does anybody have any references??

Jerry Freedman, Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa
(617)271-4563

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 06:47:10 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Ys

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>  I've been reading Poul Anderson's _Ys_ books, and I have a
>>question. Is Anderson making things up completely or was there a
>>Ys? If there was does anybody have any references??
>
>Ys did exist, in one form or another. It is also the cultural
>equivalent of King Arthur and Camelot in French mythology. Also a
>royal pain to find English research material on.

According to the notes on the Alan Stivell album, "Renaissance of
the Celtic Harp", Ys was the ancient capital of Cornwall, inundated
by the sea (permanently, apparently) in the 5th century AD,
reportedly as punishment for evil ways.

Anyone else got $.02 or more on this?

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 88 10:07:09 est
From: (Smith, Stephen)" <SMITH%DICKINSN.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Fantasy Recommendations

After getting back from break and taking several hours reading all
my digests that had been building up in my mail file, I am
registering shock.

I expected to find, in the numerous fantasy recommendations, at
least ONE mention of David Eddings's fantasy series, _The
Belgariad_, and his (still being written) "sequel series" _The
Malloreans_. This is the best action-adventure fantasy series I have
ever read. (That ought to generate discussion.) Its following is
large, apparently especially on the net, and would be easily called
a cult following if the fans of these books weren't quite so quiet.
But NOBODY mentioned them in their fantasy recommendations.  ?????

(The books are:

_Belgariad_ series:
  _Pawn of Prophecy_
  _Queen of Sorcery_
  _Magician's Gambit_
  _Castle of Wizardry_
  _Enchanter's End Game_

_Malloreans_ series:
  _Guardians of the West_
  (four more yet-unwritten books whose titles are given in the first,
   I believe)

Do read them, they are EXCELLENT. _Guardians of the West_ starts
weakly (it isn't boring but the writing is not good enough to win an
award, as the rest of Eddings is), but by the middle of the book
Eddings is back in form again.)

Also, on Stasheff: Don't pay attention to his _Warlock_ series to
the exclusion of his unconnected _Her Majesty's Wizard_, which is
quite good, and his (vaguely) connected (to the Warlock series) _A
Wizard in Bedlam_, which is excellent.

Stephen Joseph Smith
SMITH@DICKINSN.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 06:25:11 GMT
From: cisunx!mctst@RUTGERS.EDU (Mary C. Tabasko)
Subject: Cutter's World

Has anyone heard anything about anything about a television film
called *Cutter's World*, written by Harlan Ellison (!!!)? I recently
purchased *Night and the Enemy*, written by Harlan Ellison,
illustrated by Ken Steacy (Comico The Comic Company, pub.  November
1987, ISBN 0-938965-06-9), which included an author's afterword. I
quote:

"They [the Kyben, an alien race at war with mankind] are also -- and
you're getting the word here first -- a major element of the
two-hour television film I recently completed for Roger Corman and
NBC. The movie is called *Cutter's World*, and if it does well, they
tell me it will become a regular series."

The afterword is dated September, 1987.

An ardent Ellison fan and television avoider, I fear I may have
missed the movie. I don't remember seeing anything about it on the
net before the holidays, but who knows?

So, can anybody out there help? Is this all a figment of my
sleep-deprived imagination? Will Ellison really have anything to do
with the Glass Teat??! I'd certainly appreciate any other tidbits
floating around out there!

Thanks in advance, and g'night.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 22:18:36 GMT
From: dasys1!ken@RUTGERS.EDU (Ken Wong)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations

I have found that books by Ru Emerson are generally well written.
Among her works are 'The Princess of Flame., .To the Haunted
Mountain' and the recently released 'In the Caves of the Exiles'.
Although the plots are nothing new, Emerson spins a fine tale in all
three books and is quite readable. Now, for a question of my own.
When is the book following 'Godstalk' and 'Dark of the Moon' by
Hodgin (I am not sure about his name) going to be published (if
ever). If you have not yet read those two books, do so. They are
very enjoyable.

Ken Wong
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!ken
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!ken
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!ken

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 18:26:10 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Emerson and Hodgell

>I have found that books by Ru Emerson are generally well written.
>Among her works are 'The Princess of Flame., .To the Haunted
>Mountain' and the recently released 'In the Caves of the Exiles'.

"Princess of Flame", yes, but I thought "To the Haunted Mountain"
was *offensively* beginning-of-series.  In particular, in an obvious
setup for future books, the protagonist defeats each of her major
enemies And Lets Them Go!  (They'll be back...)

>Now, for a question of my own. When is the book following
>'Godstalk' and 'Dark of the Moon' by Hodgin (I am not sure about
>his name) going to be published (if ever).

Now there's an excellent author.  P.C. Hodgell.  I understand that
the next book is contracted for, but it won't be finished for a
while.  Certainly don't look for it in 1988.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 00:34:43 GMT
From: matt@ncr-sd.sandiego.ncr.com (Matt Costello)
Subject: Paul Van Herck

Leo Breebaart BREEBAAR@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
>-  VAN HERCK : SAM, OF DE PLUTERDAG   [Sam, or the pluterday]
>Without question *the* funniest book I know. Too bad it's in
>Dutch... If any of the other Dutch SFLovers could give me some
>information about the writer, I'd really appreciate it. All I know
>is that he is a Flemish schoolteacher, and that the book -
>published by Meulenhof - dates from 1968.

The book was translated into English:

   Paul Van Herck
   "Where Were You Last Pluterday?"
   DAW paperback #51
   First printing April 1973
   Europa Award Novel for 1972 (probably the original)
   Translators: Danny De Laet & Willy Magiels

It has been 9 years since I read it, but I remember it as having
lost a little in the translation.  I got the impression that there
were lots of word puns in the original that did not translate.  It
was funny, and I did enjoy it, but it just wasn't that outstanding
in English.

Matt Costello
+1 619 485 2926
matt.costello@SanDiego.NCR.COM
matt.costello%SanDiego.NCR.COM@Relay.CS.NET
{sdcsvax,cbosgd,pyramid,nosc.ARPA}!ncr-sd!matt

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 06:53:33 GMT
From: reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU (Captain James Tiberius Kirk)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Request

Nobody has mentioned Barry Hughart's *Bridge of Birds*.  A friend
described it as "a cross between *The Princess Bride* and *The
Phantom Tollbooth*", which is pretty accurate.  The story is pretty
much your basic quest novel, set in "An Ancient China that Never
Was", but it's told with rare wit and sensitivity.

READ THIS BOOK, OK!

Soren F. Petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 21:32:02 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Request

>Nobody has mentioned Barry Hughart's *Bridge of Birds*.

And, Hughart fans, the 'sequel' (actually from reports a related
story) will be a Doubleday hardback this spring. Um, a "Foundation"
book this spring.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 13:44:46 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Request

I would second the recommendations, with one proviso: an Asian
friend has strong objections to this book, on the grounds that it
reiterates many Western stereotypes of Chinese culture, most of
which are untrue, and many of which are very condescending.  I'm
willing to accept his word for that, but also think the story is
strong, and the writing wonderful.  A clear eye toward what biases
and falsehoods Hughart is using, though, is a valuable thing.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jun 88 21:06:28 PDT
From: uazchem!dolata@arizona.edu (Dolata)
Subject: Fantasy Rec's

I am highly suprised that no-one has yet mentioned Tanith Lee as
"must read fantasy".  But, perhaps I do understand it.  Tanith Lee
is an author of great ability and incredible breadth of style
(unlike some SF&F authors who have but one style, and flog it until
we vomit on the vanilla sameness).  Some of her books are pure "Thud
and Blunder", while others are as beautifully lyrical and richly
crafted as Euripides or Heloise and Abelard.  Some of my freinds
have read one of her books in one of her many many styles, decided
they didn't like it, and never picked up another of her books.
Those that do go on quickly fall under the spell of this versatile
authoress...  a few fantasy books that come to mind;

"The Flat Earth Series"
    very lyrical,  rich prose, almost poetry at points
Night's Master
Death's Master
Delusion's Master
Delusion's Mistress

Sword and Sorcery:
The Birthgrave -  very "Thud and Blunder"

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 23:32:08 GMT
From: bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Tanith Lee

dolata@uazchem.UUCP (Dolata) writes:
>I am highly suprised that no-one has yet mentioned Tanith Lee as
>"must read fantasy".
>
>"The Flat Earth Series"
>    very lyrical,  rich prose, almost poetry at points
>Night's Master
>Death's Master
>Delusion's Master
>Delusion's Mistress
>
>Sword and Sorcery:
>The Birthgrave -  very "Thud and Blunder"

Of this latter grouping, include: _Vazkor, Son of Vazkor_ and _Quest
For The White Witch_ which (with _Birthgrave_) make up the trilogy
with which TLee burst upon the F & SF world.  I tried _B_ when it
first came out, had a negative reaction, and ignored her work, that
is until recently, a few years back when I (re)discovered her in an
anthology of Heroic Fantasy.  A tale of the Assassins Guild (I
think) set in a Medieval Holy Land that sounds more like Cyrion's
parallel universe than ours'.  Since then I picked up her
collection, _Light And Darkness_, quite good, covering the gamut of
the genre: from werewolves (would you experience "in the fur" the
wolves' shrinking forest kingdom?) and vampyres (to drink mortal
blood to regain your youth?), to her answer to the Sword & Sorcery
crowd, Cyrion.  A very talented author.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 10:40:54 EST
From: Iris Tennenbaum <TENNENBM%KENTVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Recommended Fantasy from mystery genre

I am a mystery fan as well as a SF fan and I came across a 'fantasy
story' while reading one of my favorite mystery authors, Charlotte
MacLeod (MacCleod?). Anyway,the book is called _The Curse of the
Hogweed_ or something similar and is set in a wonderful world full
of witches and strange animals. It is a mystery and it is very
MacCaffery style, so it won't appeal to the SF diehards of
cyberpunk-dom but it is fun.

BTW, anyone know of a mystery list?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 05:04:41 GMT
From: dasys1!cheeser@rutgers.edu (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Recommended Fantasy from mystery genre

TENNENBM@kentvm.BITNET (Iris Tennenbaum) writes:
>I am a mystery fan as well as a SF fan and I came across a 'fantasy
>story' while reading one of my favorite mystery authors, Charlotte
>MacLeod (MacCleod?). Anyway,the book is called _The Curse of the
>Hogweed_ or something similar and is set in a wonderful world full
>of witches and strange animals. It is a mystery and it is very
>MacCaffery style, so it won't appeal to the SF diehards of
>cyberpunk-dom but it is fun.

The book is actually caled _The Curse of the Giant Hogweed_ and is
quite good.

Best,

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 05:28:36 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: DragonRiders again...

As the originator of the Pern Romance controversy, I must admit that
I mispoke myself somewhat when I said the they were basically
romance.  (Funny how poorly worded remarks can cause no end of
interesting articals and flamage on the net.  But Becky Slocum's
similar remark some time ago was largely ignored...)

Anyway, to put my remark into context, I was replying to someopne
else about how much adolecents can understand of adult books.  He
had used the example of a young girl who had read all of the Pern
books.  My remark was to indicate that there is a lot of romance in
the Pern books which a 10-year old girl will be attracted to and be
able to ignore the other aspects of the books.

Actually, I like the Pern books as long as the romance doesn't
threaten to take over.  (I'll admit it: I like some romance in my
fiction, just not too much.)  I also tend to overlook most of the
scientific errors and concentrate on the characterization and the
sociological aspects of the books.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 22:43:01 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Final Battles--An Overworked Cliche

>I'd like to see the cliche reversed: The small dedicated band of
>heroes attempts to end the war in one swell foop by doing away with
>the great villain, and is handily overcome by the guards.  They are
>saved at the last minute by the army which, although not very
>skillful, outnumbers the villains twenty-to-one...

Try Harry Turtledove's "The Forgotten Legion" [Del Rey]. At the end
of the first book, the good guys get their asses nailed, the good
leader has his head on a stake, and what's left of the good guys are
running for their lives. It seems almost exactly what you're looking
for.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 20:24:53 GMT
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: "Bogus" Vance (_A Quest for Simbilis_)

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>...Not that _Cugel's Saga_ isn't excellent, but once having given his
>permission (as I assume he did) for _Quest_, he should have
>accepted it as part of the story-line. I consider _Quest_ to be
>quite on a par with Vance's own stuff (high praise indeed), but
>perhaps Vance didn't.

  I remember asking Vance about this at the 76 Swedish sf con, where
he was GoH. I spoke of his having "authorized" the sequel. He didn't
want to say that he had authorized anything. He just hadn't raised
any objections. Quite possibly he hadn't read the (whole) book. It
should be noted that Vance is not a writer who keeps tabs on his
earlier books and takes pains to remain consistent to previously
established premisses. (There are several inconsistencies in his
series.) He agreed with my comment that the author had exaggerated
some aspects of Vance's style in the book so as to produce something
of a parody.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #23
Date: 18 Jan 88 1116-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 88 1116-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #23
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:

           Television - Shazam (5 msgs) & Flash Gordon &
                        Marine Boy & Blake's 7 (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 88 01:19:04 GMT
From: bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: Re: Shazam

The "Shazam" show that I remember was a Saturday morning kids'-TV
show; it was based on the original Captain Marvel tales in that
Billy Batson could say "Shazam" and turn into a superhero; however,
I don't recall this hero's name ever specifically being given AS
Captain Marvel.  Billy and this old guy he always called "Mentor"
would travel around, not in a spaceship, but in a mobile home (read
"Winnebago").  There was a ball studded with lights that would
occasionally (usually when Billy was confronting that week's
conflict) flash or otherwise catch his attention; he would then go
into a weird mystical state and converse with cartoon-like figures
of "the Elders" or something.  Again, it's all loosely based on the
original Captain Marvel (who was drawn, in comics, to deliberately
resemble actor Fred MacMurray - remember him in all the Disney
"absent-minded-Professor" movies?), but considerable liberties seem
to have been taken with the basics.

Chris Chiesa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 06:39:45 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Old TV shows

rang%cps45x@CPSWH.CPS.MSU.EDU (Anton Rang) writes:
>> 1. Shazam( or was it called Captain Marvel?)  ...I remember the
>> word was supposed to stand for letters of mythical heroes which
>> Captain Marvel had the attributes of...
>
>I remember this--about '77 or '78?  I think one of the A's was for
>Achilles (speed).  Wasn't there some sort of spaceship or something
>in this series too (I don't remember it very well and may be
>confusing it with something else).

The "something", believe it or not, was a Coachmens (R) motor home,
driven by this older guy named "Mentor", and containing in the back
some kind of room/temple in which the kid (who turned into Cap'n
Marvel when he said "Shazam") could confer with the gods.  (An
operational Greek temple, being carried around secretly in a
monstrous motor home.  What'll they think of next?)

I seem to remember another live-action Saturday-morning program of
this nature, involving a woman archaelogist who could turn herself
into the Egyptian goddess Isis by invoking Isis' name (this woman
wasn't bad looking, either).

Speaking of Saturday-morning live-action fare involving giant motor
homes, remember "Ark II"?  There're these scientists, see, and they
drive around a post-holocaust world in this Winnebago with a
space-shuttle front end, and . . .

Nostalgically,

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 16:22 EST
From: Dan Harkavy <V066EDD9@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: old television episodes

From: rang%cps45x@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang)
>> 1. Shazam( or was it called Captain Marvel?)  ...I remember the
>> word was supposed to stand for letters of mythical heroes which
>> Captain Marvel had the attributes of...
>
> I remember this--about '77 or '78?  I think one of the A's was for
> Achilles (speed).  Wasn't there some sort of spaceship or
> something in this series too (I don't remember it very well and
> may be confusing it with something else).

I think the series (SHAZAM!) ran two years.  It was (VERY) loosely
based on the DC comic series SHAZAM!, which was in turn based on the
Fawcett comics character Captain Marvel (the original, before marvel
comics) first introduced in WHIZ comics #1 The main character (Billy
Batson) traveled around the country with his mentor (Mentor).  By
saying the magic word SHAZAM he would change to Captain Marvel and
gain the powers of the following from mythology.

S- Solomon -    Wisdom
H- Hercules     Strength
A- Atlas        Stamina
Z- Zeus         Power (a catch-all, which gave him invulnerability
                and the like)
A- Achilles     Courage (not invulnerability...  no achilles heel...)
M- Mercury      Speed

The 'spaceship' only appeared when he tried to contact the 'elders',
those who he gained his powers from.  We saw the blinking,
spaceship-like lights, and then the 'elders' appeared to give
advice, each episode.

Dan Harkavy

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 14:16:21 GMT
From: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: Old Tv Shows

   You Folks have been talking about SHAZAM, but what about the
person he often times was helped out by.....ISIS!!!  Along the same
lines as SHAZAM, some girl(I don't know her name) just had to murmur
those mystic words....  "ALMIGHTY ISIS!!!"(cheesy superhero music
plays[just like captain marvel], and sped up film of clouds rolling
by is seen, thunder crashes, lightning strikes[KABOOM!!]) there
stands ISIS defender of all that is Egyptian??? ...nah, well anyway
I remember the show as being by the same people who did Captain
Marvel(so it was only natural that they work together :-)

   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the people who did these
shows were the same ones who did ARKII(that fabulous machine
trekking around the world that had destroyed itself[did you notice
how the show never said 'a nuclear holocaust had befallen the earth'
yet the world certainly looked that way???]).  They also did Star
Command, and Jason of Star Command, the only difference in these two
shows were the main characters.  Star Command had a pair of
telepathic twins, and Jason was just Jason, some heroic type of guy.
Gee don't you just yearn for the days that these good 'ole shows
were on...I'm so sick of My Little Pony, The Wrestlers, and those
!@#$%$%^%^&&* Smurfs!!!!

Colin
ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 88 15:45 EST
From: RANDOM/HAMPSHIRE COLLEGE
From: <DPARMENTER%HAMPVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Old TeeVee shows

rang%cps45x@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang) writes:
>> 1. Shazam( or was it called Captain Marvel?)  ...I remember the
>> word was supposed to stand for letters of mythical heroes which
>> Captain Marvel had the attributes of...
>
>I remember this--about '77 or '78?  I think one of the A's was for
>Achilles (speed).  Wasn't there some sort of spaceship or something
>in this series too (I don't remember it very well and may be
>confusing it with something else).

I suppose this really belongs in rec.arts.comics, but since Captain
Marvel was written at one point by one half of Eando Binder, it
sort of qualifies as SF.

Okay, here goes:

S - Solomon (wisdom)
H - Hercules (strength)
A - Atlas (stamina)
Z - Zeus (power...?)
A - Achilles (invulnerability)
M - Mercury (speed)

On the television show to which you refer, Captain Marvel (played by
Jackson Bostwick) or Billy Batson, his boy alter-ego, could call on
these gods by consulting with this dome-shaped object with glowing
lights that was inside the van he drove around in in different
episodes.

This series did absolutely NO justice to the wonderful original
comics.  No mad Sivana whose humble goal was to rule the universe
(this *must* be SF!), no Mr. Mind, no Mr. Tawky Tawny, no 'Teth
Adam', no Ibac, not even Captain Marvel Junior!  Nothing!  The
episodes were all about Billy Batson and an elderly gentleman riding
around in a van helping kids stop taking drugs and such.  How
insulting!Captain Marvel would appear from time to time, although
one wonders how he could avert sudden disasters, since the change
took about 5 minutes of shoddy SFX to occur.  Worst of all, Jackson
Bostwick didn't look a thing like Fred McMurry (after whom the good
Captain was originally modeled, natch!)!!  All in all, a grade-z
production.

box 808
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA  01002
BITNET:  dparmenter@hampvms
CSNET:   dparmenter%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP:    ...seismo!hampvms.bitnet!dparmenter
INET:  dparmenter%hampvms.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1988 16:57 EDT
From: Stan Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V13

Anton Rang suggests that the Flash Gordon fans on the net start
asking their local stations to broadcast it.  One of the local PBS
stations I get does broadcast Flash Gordon shows right after Dr. Who
on Saturday Evenings.  Unfortunately, I do not consider Flash Gordon
to be very good, even if it was innovative for it's time, but I am
not sure.  I know I just don't consider it very good science
fiction.  Every time I have seen it, it is almost the same thing.
Flash always seems to be in a heated battle with Ming The Merciless
or one of his croonies.  It is always the same conflict.  Very
little real science fiction, just a western made in space with cute
toys for the characters to play with.

Stan Horwitz
V4039 at TEMPLEVM
Temple University
Phila., PA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1988 16:57 EDT
From: Stan Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V13

  Marine Boy.  Ah yes.  I remember the show well.  It brings back
fond memories of when I was just a wee little child.  Marine Boy was
on right before dinner and quite frequently I had a friend over to
watch it with me and then mom was good enough to invite the guest to
stay for dinner.

  The show was of course about a boy who lived in the seas.  I don't
remember where exactly.  It's been many years since I have seen the
show.  He was a member of a family who were all some sort of
underwater police officers or something like that.  They moved around
the water with all strange sorts of little submarine type units
helping people in distress.

   If I remember correctly, Marine Boy's headquarters was in the
side of an undersea mountain.  I even think he had a girl friend who
was some sort of mermaid creature with a very feminine voice.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 04:51:01 GMT
From: jchung@cad.berkeley.edu (James E. Chung)
Subject: Book Search: Blake's 7 Novelization Query

Apologies if this request is a little off the mainstream for this
group, but I was unable to find an answer elsewhere.

Has there ever been any novelization of the British SF TV series
Blake's 7?  (Perhaps something similar to the work of James Blish
for the old Star Trek series).  Or has anything been written dealing
with the show's characters?  I know that the show's creator Terry
Nation (.sp?)  has written some SF, but I am not familiar with this
work.

If this request has appeared recently, please mail replies to this
account rather than posting.  Many thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 08:42:25 PST (Friday)
From: Wahl.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Blakes 7
Cc: bsu-cs!cmness@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Ness),
Cc:     ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (G. "Murdock" Helms),
Cc:     moran@lion.arpa (William L. Moran Jr.)

What interesting timing!  One of the SFLovers Digests I got
yesterday had a number of references to "Headhunter" and that was
shown here last night.

"the best programmer, who was being held by Servalan" -- wrong.  It
was one of the FEW episodes that Servalan WASN'T in.

"he was being held for questions concerning the death of his
"assistant""--wrong, the death wasn't even discovered until after he
was on Scorpio.

"No, the guy who built the robot was not described as the best
programmer but as the best something else." -- I believe it was
"cyberneticist" -- presumable hardware vs. software, although they
pretty much seem interchangable in B7 (how many times has Avon had
to do something which you thought would require typing on a
keyboard, or some such input device, and has actually pulled out
computer boards and such?)

Now, can someone who remembers this episode please tell me WHY they
destroyed the android?  I couldn't see any reason for it, once they
had the control mechanism installed.  Avon's theory that (to
paraphrase) the others were a bunch of anti-technology thugs,
doesn't quite ring true, given the effort they've made before to get
hold of technolgy that would give them an edge.  I kept waiting for
someone to say, "We discovered that the control mechanism wouldn't
work because . . ."

Also, "Soolin: Joins crew after death of (whasisname? owned the
Scorpio)."  -- how could you forget!  It was one of the better B7
jokes!  That was Dorian (as in "picture of")

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 88 01:44:33 EST
From: bsu-cs!cmness@rutgers.edu (Christopher Ness)
To: Wahl.es@xerox.com
Subject: Re:  Blakes 7
Cc: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu, moran@lion.arpa

Sorry.  A friend of mine corrected me about this the next day.  It
had been an en a LONG time since I had seen the episode when I
posted the message.  The last episode I saw, on channel 11 from
Chicago, in recent weeks was the "death" of the Liberator.  I was
sorry to see Zen leave.  Oh well....  I have recently heard that the
B7 series might come back.  Apparently the actors want to start the
series back up again, except for the guy who plays Blake.  It would
be nice to have had Orac to renew the orders for the Federation
soldiers to set their guns to stun.  I await the reply from the
BBS....

Glad to meet you,
Chris

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 18:45:53 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Book Search: Blake's 7 Novelization Query

jchung@cad.Berkeley.EDU (James E. Chung) writes:
>Apologies if this request is a little off the mainstream for this
>group, but I was unable to find an answer elsewhere.

On the contrary, "where can I find," and "is there such a thing,"
queries are common on all the newsgroups, and are quite appropriate,
provided they relate to the subject of the newsgroup.

>Has there ever been any novelization of the British SF TV series
>Blake's 7?  (Perhaps something similar to the work of James Blish
>for the old Star Trek series).  Or has anything been written
>dealing with the show's characters?  I know that the show's creator
>Terry Nation (.sp?)

I've never seen a short-story version of any TV episode, though that
doesn't mean they don't exist.  (A collection of such stories would
rather rub your nose in the series's inconsistencies, which may
explain why they didn't do them).  The following *do* exist (though
I haven't read any of them):

   A "Blake's 7 Programme Guide," written by a fan of the series.

   "Afterlife," written by the same guy, a novel that takes place
   after the final episode of the series.

   A novel by Paul Darrow, about the life of his character Avon
   before he met up with Blake.  Don't know the title or whether
   it's been published.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 88 13:44:32 PST
From: G. Murdock Helms <timelord@ames-aurora.arpa>
To: Wahl.es@xerox.com,
To:     ames!ucbcad!rutgers.edu!iuvax!bsu-cs!cmness@ames-aurora.arpa
Subject: Re:  Blakes 7
Cc: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU, moran@lion.arpa

Gareth Thomas (Blake) decided at the end of the second series that
the show was turning into a conflict-setting between Blake and Avon,
and that too many shows were focusing on the differences between the
two.  Rather than let B7 de-evolve into "Shoot-out at Terra Cygnus
5", Gareth decided to leave the show to open the way for the other
actors.

His appearance in "Blake" was his final one.  His contract
specifically stated that Blake was to die...very messily, so there
would be no nonsense about "guns on stun"...hence all the blood when
he was shot.  There are, however, two things that we don't know:

1.  What WAS Orac up to during "Blake"?  Avon was running about with
him, but Orac was nowhere in sight at the end.  Could the final
episode have been part of Avon's plot to be taken to headquarters so
he could wreak havoc there?

2.  Where is Blake's clone?  Is it possible that the Blake that died
was only Blake's clone?  Is it possible that Blake's clone may
decide to join battle against the Federation after the death of his
original?

Let's just hope that Terry Nation continues to refuse to allow
American TV to pick up the series.  They'd make a hash of it (see:
Buck Rogers, Battlestar Galactica, Max Headroom, etc.).

Murdock

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #24
Date: 18 Jan 88 1130-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Jan 88 1130-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 18 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Donaldson (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 06:00:20 GMT
From: yendor!gmg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary Godfrey)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

I'm just going to reply as one who enjoyed the series, and has even
read it twice (some parts even more).  I realize that this is
inconceivable to most of you, but I hope you will listen to my
reasons, and perhaps you may comprehend why someone can enjoy TC.
I'm not looking for disagreement or flames (I'll probably get
them!), but I just wish to convey some possible insight.  Enough of
the disclaimer!

If I may put a color to the beginning of _Lord_Foul's_Bane_, I would
make it gray.  The novel begins like "The Wizard of Oz": in black
and white.  But when Dorothy reaches Oz she, along with the rest of
the world, is displayed in living color.  When TC reaches the Land,
he's still in black and white.  And he stays that way.  The Land has
life, wonder and people rich in lore and wisdom.  I was able to look
through TC's twisted perspective and see some truly wonderful
characters that I could care about.  Characters that were trapped by
their lore into believing that Covenant was their savior, their only
hope.  Most of the time I wanted to scream at the characters to kill
Covenant and take his ring; he IS an annoying beast.  But again, I
was able to get past him in the same way I'm capable getting past
Cerebus (for those of you who don't know, Cerebus is a comic
book/novel that has got a horrible bastard for a main character.  He
is far worse than TC in many many respects.  But, damnit, the other
characters and the world that Cerebus is in carries the story - and
carry it well.)

As far as Donaldson's style - I haven't read TC with my "writer
analysis hat" on.  I did find that he created excellent visions, and
that his characters were reasonably well developed.  He also didn't
seem to slap me in the face every paragraph and remind me that I was
reading a book.  I will grant that he does NOT have a very good ear
for conversation, but most of what he did seemed to work OK in a
fantasy novel.  I will also grant that Donaldson seems incapable of
creating a complex/interesting story line; even in his book on short
stories, _The_Daughters_of_Rigils_ (I think), most of the plots are
somewhat thin.  But if you just let yourself be pulled through the
tales, it can be a very interesting ride.

Gary Godfrey
ACT, Reston, VA
(703)471-9433
..!mimsy!{prometheus,hqda-ai}!yendor!gmg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 11:11:37 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
Subject: Thomas Covenant

(1) To the lady who COULD put Davidson down, I'd like to add a few
comments. First of all, you are not supposed to like Covenant. So if
you had such an extreme reaction, Davidson must be a BETTER writer
than I thought. In fact, it is obvious that Davidson thinks the same
way you do about rape since it was with a rape that Davidson begins
to drive home the point that Covenant is not a very nice guy at all.

However, he is not just portraying a random evil "Ming the Merciless
type". In contrasting the evil of Covenant through the evil that the
land is facing we have a very interesting foil which I believe must
be unique in literature. (Tell me if I'm wrong)

One should however keep in mind that the first trilogy was written
solely from Covenant's perspective. There is NO chapter in which he
does not appear. Therefore, it is consistent with the first 3 books
for one to conclude (as Covenant does) that this world is fictious.
(In fact doubly fictitious since it is fictitious with respect to a
fictional world). In other words, this is all an extended dream of
Covenant. If so, then can one really blame Covenant for what he
does? The innocent bystanders don't even EXIST so how can they
suffer.

I started off adopting Covenants point-of-view, but then got
entranced by the wonderful sidekicks, and couldn't stop reading
because I NEEDED to know what would happen to them.  I kept hoping
they would be ok, but NOOOO they all die in order to save a man who
doesn't care. How poignant! Anyhow, don't they say that CLASSIC
literature is supposed to be sad.

Flame away, I've got my aspestos suit on! :)

Danny

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 15:40 CST
From: DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.LABMED.UMN.EDU
Subject: Thomas Covenant series

I have been reading the favorable and unfavorable remarks made in
regard to Stephen Donaldson's heptology "The Chronicles of Thomas
Covenant".  I have to say that, for the most part, I agree with
those who give the series an "unfavorable" review.

I read the first three books in their entirety.  By the third book
("The Power that Preserves" if memory serves...), Donaldson had, it
seemed, reached his stride.  I *used* to consider the final
chapters, with Lord Foul seemingly vanquished by Covenant's
acceptance of life as it is, to be worthy literature.

I say *used to* for one reason.  Donaldson didn't stop there.  He
wrote another three books which essentially made a mockery of what
Covenant had gone through in the first three books.  I mean, he
totally threw away anything he'd learned to write another set of
books based on the same world, based on the same ANTI-HERO.  It
might be worthwhile to go through hell and back ONCE, but *twice*
was too much.

Now, if Donaldson had never written another book about the "Land"
after "The Power..." it would have been okay.  Or even if he HAD
written another book, but left Thomas Covenant, white gold and Lord
Foul out of it, it *might* have been okay....

It's sort of like having J.R.R. Tolkien write another three books,
where Sauron returns after the Ring has been destroyed and Gandalf
and company have to go and do THAT all over again....

Dave Meile

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 20:21:50 GMT
From: rr23+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ronald George Redmond)
Subject: Re:Thomas Covenant

I liked this series.  If you like books where something powerful is
needed, this something is found or fought for by the good guys, the
something is needed to put an end to the evil guy, it is used for
this purpose and then must be gotten rid of for it is too powerful
to keep around; if you do all the more power to you. TC was more
original than most, but then again nothing is completely original!

Ronald G. Redmond

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 01:08:36 GMT
From: desj@brahms.berkeley.edu (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

Bevan@umass.BITNET (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston) writes:
>That any author, for any reason, could have the protagonist of a
>book, the person we're supposed to identify with [...] gratuitously
>rape a child disgusts me.
>
>Rape is an evil, brutal, violent act.  Any character in a book who
>rapes is not a hero [....]

   Damn it, this is just silly.  OF COURSE Covenant is not a hero.
OF COURSE he is evil.  If anyone out there has never read a novel
with an antihero as the protagonist, then that person has missed out
on some of the great literature of all time.  (For that matter, I
can't imagine how anyone could get through a high-school literature
course, much rest the rest of life, without being exposed to some
sort of antihero!)
   For the record, you are NOT supposed to identify with Covenant.
Anyone who can identify with that kind of a man is DANGEROUSLY
UNBALANCED.  That does not make the novel good OR bad.

   One of the big problems with modern science fiction, and one of
the reasons why so little of it achieves the status of good
literature, is that it is wedded to a style that doesn't give it
much of a chance to say something about PEOPLE.  Science-fictional
characters are so often stamped from one mold (how's *that* for a
mixed metaphor?); good, whole- some people who experience
fascinating new things and then settle down to live happily ever
after.  REAL literature is about REAL characters, who have
personalities and strengths and (yes, really) weaknesses and flaws.
To condemn Donaldson for trying to write about real people instead
of cardboard cutouts is so hopelessly wrong.

   Personally, I didn't like the Covenant novels all that much.  But
without the characterization I wouldn't even have bothered to read
it.  The one thing it did have going for it was that it was clearly
about real three-dimensional people.  Certainly you don't like all
of the people you meet on the street; why should you expect to like
all of the people you read about in a book?

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 23:31:58 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l
From: DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

loeb@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU writes:
>One should however keep in mind that the first trilogy was written
>solely from Covenant's perspective.

Simply not true.  The first VOLUME is written solely from Covenant's
PoV.  In each successive volume of the first trilogy, Donaldson adds
pressure on the reader to believe that the Land must be real:

   The second volume is in three parts, the second of which is
entirely from the PoV of Hile Troy.  Troy, however, is of "our"
[Covenant's fictional] world, and the reader is permitted to retain
the belief that the Land is somehow unreal -- perhaps a shared
hallucination, or an simulated reality (for a good example of this,
see Alan Moore's comic, MIRACLEMAN.)

   In the third volume, we are given direct point of view of Lord
Mhoram as he tries to summon Covenant to save the Land in its final
agony.  After that, his PoV is repeatedly used to show the
deterioration of the situation at Revelstone.  In addition, though
my memory may be failing me, I *think* we are also given the PoV of
one of the characters who eventually succeed in summoning Covenant
to the Land.

   This plan is quite deliberate, though it appears to have been a
late consideration in the writing.  THE ILLEARTH WAR (volume two)
was originally written with a lengthy section written from the PoV
of one of the Land's denizens, a Bloodguard; this has been printed
as a separate "little" book and in Donaldson's short story
collection (title escapes me) under the title, "Gilden-fire."

Yes, Covenant is a wretched louse.

Yes, Donaldson is a wretched prose stylist.  (Clench!)

But I suggest that he is an excellent plotter, and an above-average
creator of characters.

(And, to those who insist on thinking of Covenant as the "hero" --
WRONG.

The hero of the first trilogy is Saltheart Foamfollower.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88  21:47:38 EST
From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Thomas Covenant

Before I start, a tidbit for the raging sharks roiling and boiling
at my feet (sorry, just indulging in pastiche for a moment):

Would those of you who laud Covenant as an anti-hero, and a tragic
character because of all his suffering, still defend him if his name
turned out to be Thomasina, and she decided, for no reason at all,
to smother a baby because it give her pleasure?  Would you still
think this a good and worthy subject for heroic fantasy?

Just asking.

And now, for the main subject.  I've seen several letters defending
the Covenant books on the grounds of a) Covenant's later suffering/
atonement for the rape of Lena; b) Donaldson's skill as a writer,
and c) Thomas Covenant's being an anti-hero as a excuse for his
deeds and words.  None of this will wash, not at all.

A.  Covenant suffers from his rape, but no more than he suffers from
his wife abandoning him, his leprosy, the quests he is continually
forced to go on, and so forth (all this from my husband, who's read
all six books.  If the interpretation is wrong, please slag him, not
me).  Also, he may feel guilty, but Lena's entire family is
virtually destroyed by one careless act - feeling guilty is all well
and good, but it's a hell of a lot better to think before doing
something ugly and mean.  Finally, wallowing in guilt does nothing
to help the victim.  I'm sure that all those followers of Charles
Manson are now sorry they killed Sharon Tate and all those other
people, but it won't bring Tate and her baby and Jay Sebring and
Gibby Folger and all the other victims back to life.  Maybe Covenant
is a better person by the end of six overwritten books, but I was so
revolted by the first book I figured I was better off reading LeGuin
and Emerson and Ellison and a few other authors than spending my
time on this earth reading about a little-souled masochist.

B.  I just glanced through *Daughter of Regals*, and I have this to
say about Stephen Donaldson, the writer of something other than
Thomas Covenant: too damn many adjectives and adverbs, and too much
like a cheap Dunsany knockoff.  There's a big difference between
slinging around the latest pretty words from Roget's and knowing how
to use those pretty words effectively, and I was and am utterly
unwilling to read each of Donaldson's books to watch him learn that
less is more.  Hemingway did it a lot better back in 1920 something,
and I'm far from crazed about Hemingway.

C.  Yes, Covenant is an anti-hero.  In fact, he's so effective an
anti-hero that I gave up reading about him in the first book.  I
wanted to smack him repeatedly across the face with a wet washcloth
until he stopped pitying himself or killed himself, whichever came
first.  If I want to read about niggling little people with their
niggling little problems, I'll pick up the latest copy of The New
Yorker, or read the collected works of Philip Roth.  Better, I'll
read Michael Moorcock's Elric books.  You can't get a much purer
anti-hero than that, and Moorcock is a far, far better writer.

Also, aren't we dealing with a bit of false packaging here, at least
back in the days when Donaldson first started publishing?  I
distinctly recall blurbs comparing him to Tolkien; since Tolkien's
stock in trade was heroes, real heroes, I can be forgiven a bit of
disgust to find taht Donaldson had slipped me a wretch and not a
hero.  If we're going to get

anti-heroes, we should at least be forewarned so we can put the book
down if that isn't what we want.

And if you want a good example of an anti-hero, and much better
book, check out *Heroing* by Daffy ab Hugh.  At last, something from
the point of view of the victim and not the attacker....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 03:40:22 GMT
From: deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant (Lisa Evan's posting)

Lisa Evans writes:
> I agree with Michael Farren that Thomas Covenant is a repulsive
> book.  I tried to read it back in college, and gave up in Chapter
> Six of the first book, about the point where Covenant decides to
> rape a teenage girl he doesn't think exists.

While I certainly agree with what Lisa does not like, there is one
point that must be considered - "Covenant decides to rape a teenage
girl he doesn't think exists". Remember, Covenant is convinced that
he is DREAMING -- he is totally convinced that what is happening is
unreal. How many of you have had a dream (e.g. sexual in nature)
where you find yourself doing something (e.g. cheating on someone)
that you would never do in real life? Do you wake up and condemn
yourself for being mean and rotten? Since Covenant thinks its a
dream, why shouldn't he satisfy himself, since it won't be hurting
anyone else?

I said it before, I'll say it again: I think Donaldson's gradual
character development of Terisa in "Mirror of Her Dreams" and "A Man
Rides Through" is fantastic -- sure, the reader gets totally
frustrated with Terisa's inability to do ANYTHING, but that is the
whole point; the reader identifies with Terisa's frustration. Also,
I have to give Donaldson points for some nicely written (and quite
believable) swordplay (something you hardly ever see).

David Baraff
Cornell University
deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #25
Date: 19 Jan 88 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 88 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:

                Books - Chalker & Daley & Engdahl &
                        Herbert & Kay & McCammon &
                        Moorcock (3 msgs) & Pohl (2 msgs) &
                        Spinrad (2 msgs) & Varley

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 11:24:00 EST
From: clapper@nadc.arpa (Brian M. Clapper)
Subject: Re:  Jack Chalker

gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren) writes:
> ... Chalker's books are, by and large, the same, with the same
> stale plot elements, and the same sub-adolescent hangups.  As an
> example - almost every Chalker book has, as an integral element,
> transformation of a human being.  Every time a transformation is
> made, if the transformed person ends up as a female, she will have
> huge breasts.  If the transformed person ends up as a male, he
> will have a gigantic penis.  Every time.  Even if the
> transformation is into an animal!
>
> I got very tired of Chalker very quickly.  While he has original
> and interesting ideas, the ideas get submerged in the sewage very
> early on.  Not recommended.

I couldn't agree more.  Every time Chalker would come out with a new
book, I would give him "one more chance," only to be disappointed to
find that I'd essentially already read it.  (I've since given up.)
It is, however, amusing to note that a posting about Chalker always
generates a lot of discussion in this forum.  He seems to bring out
the pop psychologist in everyone (including myself).

Brian M. Clapper
Naval Air Development Center
Warminster, PA
ARPA:  clapper@nadc.ARPA
UUCP:  ...!harvard!clapper@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 17:02:25 GMT
From: ames!lams!leadsv!gberg@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Gail Berg)
Subject: Re: Book search

gberg@leadsv.UUCP (Gail Berg) writes:
> I'm not sure the story sounds right, but could you mean _The
> Starfarers of Cormoronde_ and _The Doomfarers of Cormoronde_ by
> Brian Daley?  They sound something like what you described.
>
> He also wrote _The Magic of the Tapestry_ and the novelization of
> _TRON_.

The correct titles are:

   The Doomfarers of Coramonde
   The Starfarers of Coramonde
   A Tapestry of Magics

He also wrote:

   Requiem for a Ruler of Worlds
   Jinx on a Terran Inheritance
   Fall of the White Ship Avatar

All published by Del Rey

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 00:43:08 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Juvenile SF (was Re: Male/Female orientation in
Subject: juveniles)

mdb@silvlis.UUCP (Mark D. Baushke):
>...the following by Sylvia Louise Engdahl:
>       Enchantress from the Stars      (female as main character)
>       The Far Side of Evil            (female as main character)
>       This Star Shall Abide           (male as main character)
>       Beyond the Tomorrow Mountains   (male as main character)

The latter two are the first two books of a trilogy.  The third is
"The Doors of the Universe" (approximately).

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 88 13:21 EST
From: <GILL%QUCDNAST.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Frank Herbert - more Dune ??

   I have just been told a rumour that there are more notes, written
by Frank Herbert, on a seventh Dune novel.  It is to be written by
his son.  Has anyone else heard anything like this?

Arnold Gill
Queen's University at Kingston

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 14:17:30 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

Some months ago, in this newsgroup, someone recommended "The
Fionavar Tapestry," by Guy Gavriel Kay, as an excellent fantasy
trilogy.  Taking the posting at its word, I went ahead and got the
books.

Taking the word of an unknown person is somewhat risky.  After all,
the fellow may have terrible taste.  So it was with some diffidence
that I approached "The Fionavar Tapestry."

Well, the verdict is in.

THIS TRILOGY IS THE BEST FANTASY I HAVE READ IN YEARS!!!!!

"The Fionavar Tapestry" consists of three books:

   "The Summer Tree"
   "The Wandering Fire"
   "The Darkest Road"

Everyone should drop what they're doing, rush out instantly, and buy
these books.  Well, maybe not.  Nonetheless, I unequivocally
recommend these books to anyone who likes fantasy.  I found them as
good as anything by Tolkien.  That's blasphemy, I know, but it's
true, and not a comparison I make lightly.

"The Fionavar Tapestry" is a sword and sorcery novel, centering on
the battle between good and evil.  Even though it's been done
before, Mr. Kay does it in a completely new way, and it's wonderful.

The world of Fionavar is complex and complete.  I found no
inconsistencies, simply a wonderful world of magic and beauty.  The
story centers around five people from our world who travel to
Fionavar.  The story is told from their varying points of view, and
also from the points of view of other characters in the story.
Every time the point of view shifts, so does the texture of the
story.  It's fantastic.

Mr. Kay has an incredibly good grasp of characterization and image.
He would introduce a new character and within a page and a half I
would *care* very much about that character, to the point where I
was crying when bad things happened, and smiling foolishly when good
things happened.  The whole time I was reading these books, people
were avoiding me on the subway, simply because of my strong
reactions to the story.  Ok, that's a slight exaggeration, but you
see my point.

So, to the person who posted the article that caused me to read
these books -- thanks!  And to everyone else out there, and
especially the person who recently requested fantasy
recommendations:

Find these books!  Read them!  Enjoy!

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 12:04:16 GMT
From: kodak!diaz@RUTGERS.EDU (pete diaz)
Subject: McCammon Books

   I have just finished reading "Swan Song" by Robert McCAmmon and
was very impressed by his writing (although it may have been a
little too much like "the stand" by King.

   I'm trying to find out if he has written any other books and if
so, what are they about (reviews) their titles and some general
feelings about them.

   Any info would be greatly appreciated..... Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jan 88 18:54:50 GMT
From: geac!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek Keeping)
Subject: Moorcock's 'Dancers at the end of Time'

Thanks to everyone who either posted or mailed information about
books in the 'End of Time' series by Moorcock. I read the first
three books again over Christmas, and now find that I have several
more to try to get my hands on.

For those who asked here is a list of books set at the end of time.
Publishers are listed where possible.

Legends from The End of Time, Harper & Row, 1976
A Messiah at The End of Time, DAW, 1977
Return of the Fire Clown, ?
Elric at the End of Time, ?

Thanks again. I'm going to have fun with these.

Derek Keeping
Geac Computers International Inc.
350 Steelcase Road
Markham, Ontario
CANADA, L3R 1B3
+1 416 475 0525
{mnetor,yetti,utgpu}!geac!derek

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 13:25:36 GMT
From: brian@hrc63.co.uk (Brian Greathead)
Subject: Michael Moorcock book

I read a book a few years back written by Michael Moorcock, and I
was wondering if anyone could refresh my memory of the title. It was
about a knight sent on a quest, and also involved an attempt by the
devil to get back into heaven. The hero carried an old flintlock
pistol, and I think that the book had won some literary prize.

Thanks, Brian.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 18:14:03 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (UFFNER)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock book

brian@hrc63 (Brian C Greathead) writes:
>It was about a knight sent on a quest, and also involved an attempt
>by the devil to get back into heaven. The hero carried an old
>flintlock pistol

The Warhound and the Worlds Pain this was one of Moorcock's best
books, I'd recommend it to anyone who likes fantasy. His
characterization of the devil is one of the best I've seen.

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 16:17 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Space Merchants Peeve

Just the other day, I saw in a bookstore a paperback version of Pohl
& Kornbluth's 'Space Merchants'. According to the cover, this book
was written by:

       F R E D E R I C  P O H L       ["you all know this
                                      guy, buy this book!"]
          and c.m.kornbluth           ["oh yeah, he was there too"]

On the one hand I think that this is a bloody shame, that Mr. Pohl
also should be ashamed for allowing this (that is, if he knows about
it in the first place), and that I strongly suggest that *nobody*
buys this version.

On the other hand I know that if I keep getting upset over these
trivialities I will get ulcers, and that Mr.  Kornbluth is probably
laughing his head off about this in heaven (or wherever he is now),
for this is ofcourse exactely the kind of mentality 'Space
Merchants' is all about!  Still...

Leo Breebaart
breebaart @ hlerul5

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 17:47:52 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Space Merchants Peeve

I read in some interview with Pohl (perhaps in "Hell's
Cartographers"), that Pohl did nearly all of the writing and
idea-generation behind the book, since he was in advertising for
awhile. I can't remember what Kornbluth's involvement was. Pohl also
did a sequel, "The Merchant's War", without Pohl at all (although it
had almost the same plot - with a difference). Both books were
probably a lot more scandalous when first published than they are
now. From here, they seem a lot like standard "Golden Age" satirical
SF.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 18:51:21 GMT
From: COK%psuvma.bitnet@rutgers.edu (R. W. Clark)
Subject: Spinrad's _Child_of_Fortune_:  A Recommendation

I've always thought of Norman Spinrad as a writer who was prevented
from being a truly great author by his weak style.  His most recent,
_Little_Heroes, did nothing but strengthen this assumption.  The
writing in this book was truly awful, and the content was not enough
to salvage the novel from being truly rotten.

However, over the holiday, I had the good fortune to pick up
_Child_of_Fortune.  In this novel, Spinrad overcomes all his
weaknesses.  The style is excellent, marred only by his incessant
split infinitives.  The characters are worthy creations, and would
be at home in a Samuel R. Delany novel.

The intricately crafted worlds of Edoku and Bloomenwald match
anything from any other science-fiction writer whose main strength
is world-creation.

The book alternately calls into mind the works of Samuel R. Delany,
Arthur C. Clarke, and Arthur Machen.  A rather odd combination,
perhaps.

This is easily one of the best fifty science-fiction novels ever
written.  I don't give praise that high without reason.

If you are not a Spinrad fan, or even if you hate Spinrad, please
forget all prejudices and read this book.  It is like nothing
Spinrad, or anyone else, has ever written.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.bitnet
cok%psuvma.bitnet@psuvax1.uucp
cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 05:46:30 GMT
From: killer!elg@rutgers.edu (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Spinrad's _Child_of_Fortune_:  A Recommendation

COKPS@UVMA.BITNET (R. W. Clark) says:
> However, over the holiday, I had the good fortune to pick up
> _Child_of_Fortune.  In this novel, Spinrad overcomes all his
> weaknesses.  The style is excellent, marred only by his incessant
> split infinitives.  The characters are worthy creations, and would
> be at home in a Samuel R. Delany novel.

Ah yes, I remember it well. It is a decent "voyage" book. The most
memorable part is the journey on the Veldt, images from which still
occasionally flit about. Still, I can't give this novel the same
unconditional must-buy rating as you do. Spinrad's style still is a
bit... err... pedantic at times, and he does seem to have quite a
preoccupation with drugs and sex. One thing I remember irritating me
was that there were no "builders", only "artists", flitting about.
One wondered how all that stuff got built, if everybody's busy doing
"artsy" stuff all the time. But, I guess that's consistent with the
POV of the novel... spoilt brat daughter of upper middle class etc.

> The book alternately calls into mind the works of Samuel R.
> Delany, Arthur C. Clarke, and Arthur Machen.  A rather odd
> combination, perhaps.

Hmm. I can see the Clarke (lots of Clarke's stuff is journeys, too).
I don't see the Delany, unless it's different Delany from what I've
read (DEPRESSING stuff). Dunno about Machen.

> This is easily one of the best fifty science-fiction novels ever
> written.

I doubt it. It's decent, but hardly an all-time "best", unless you
are a time-traveller from the 60's, in which, yes, it does seem
quite, err..., 60'ish, what with focus on journeys of personal
discovery and so forth.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 19:23:46 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Free Fall and Varley

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI) writes:
>I always worried that trying to walk in a weightless environment
>when the soles of your feet were held to the surface (with velcro,
>magnetic fields, strange sticky stuff, whatever) would cause an
>awful lot of sprained or broken ankles. If your entire upper body
>mass with full momentum moves around like you were in a regular
>G-field, but the soles of your feet are held still, there is a
>great deal of unnatural stress placed on the ankles.

A very good point.  This illustrates how hard it is to thoroughly
think through the implications of an alien environment.  You keep
trying to extend familiar concepts like walking, and end up asking
meaningless questions like "how do you walk in free-fall?", when the
real question is, "how do you *move*?"

John Varley takes a typically extreme approach to the problem: feet
are worse than useless in free fall, so his astronauts are
genetically engineered to replace the feet with "peds", little
gripping thing similar to what you see on toy monkeys.  (See his
story "Lollipop and the Tar Baby" in the collection "Blue
Champagne".)

Tangentally, this is the sort of thing that makes me wonder about
Varley's background.  First, he loves to play fast and loose with
the human form (in a couple centuries, we are told, you will be
considered warped if you don't do a sex change every few years).
Second, he seems to know rather a lot about the lives and
difficulties of disabled people (see "Blue Champagne" and "Press
Enter", both in BC).  Anybody know anything real about him?

>Does anyone know of any work done with this, perhaps in Skylab or
>by the Soviets, where this was actually tested?

I don't follow either space program, but judging from those "live
from space" TV shows, if space travellers have tried sticky shoes,
they don't like them.

>Personally, as someone with bad feet, I envy a zero-G environment
>where I wouldn't have to use my legs or feet at all!

SF writers used to predict that a lot of people would go to space
because of medical problems that are aggravated by a 1G field.
Unfortunately, space travel hasn't gotten cheap enough to make that
sort of thing possible, and I doubt if it will in our lifetimes.  (A
few years ago, there was talk of commercial tickets on a shuttle
going for a mere $1 million in a few years.  If that had happened
junketeering by the hyperrich would have been a small step in that
direction.  But the Challenger tragedy ended all that.)

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #26
Date: 19 Jan 88 0857-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 88 0857-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:

             Books - Title Request & Answers (3 msgs) &
                     Hemispherism (4 msgs) & 
                     Cyberpunk (2 msgs) &
                     Humorous SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 16:39:39 -0800
From: Timothy Cain <cain@BONNIE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Book search

I am looking for a particular book and am hoping that someone out
there can help me find it. I cannot remember the title or the
author, but the plot is very distinctive. The setting is Earth,
several hundred years in the future. A nuclear war had occurred, but
a computer prevented the bombs from exploding by unleashing some
force which dampened nuclear reactions. A side effect of this force
is that magic now works, and the Earth is dominated by magicians and
sorcery, rather than scientists and technology.

The computer that unleashed the force became sentient in the
process, and it was also capable of magic to a high degree. The
computer was very benificient, but unfortunately had to keep itself
hidden because of Orcus. It turns out that one nuclear bomb had
exploded in the war and was caught in mid-explosion by the dampening
force. The interplay of energies turned the explosion into the
powerful demon Orcus, who was highly magical and very evil.

The plot concerns the summoning of a tank and its crew from Vietnam
(ie. the distant past) to combat Orcus.  The combination of magic
and technology was handled superbly, which is why I want to find
this book. I read it seven years ago, and I would like to read any
more books by this author, if a list of his works is available.

My thanks in advance to anyone who can give me the author's name,
the title of this book, and any other books of the author.

Timothy Cain.
cain@bonnie.uci.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 17:46:05 GMT
From: xyzzy!kjm@rutgers.edu (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: Book search

cain@BONNIE.UCI.EDU (Timothy Cain) writes:
>I am looking for a particular book and am hoping that someone out
>there can help me find it. I cannot remember the title or the
>author, but the plot is very distinctive. The setting is Earth,
>several hundred years in the future. A nuclear war had occurred,
>but a computer prevented the bombs from exploding by unleashing
>some force which dampened nuclear reactions. A side effect of this
>force is that magic now works, and the Earth is dominated by
>magicians and sorcery, rather than scientists and technology.
>...

Well, the book you are certainly thinking of is _Empire of the
East_, a one- volume repackaging of the trilogy "_The Broken Lands_,
_The Black Mountains_, and _Changling Earth_, all by Fred
Saberhagen. Unfortunately, due to Saberhagen's immense popularity
derived primarily from the sequel to _Empire_ (_The Book of
Swords_), Ace has decided to rerelease the series in three books.

I agree that they are excellent, but hasten to point out that at no
point in the story is a tank crew from Vietnam brought into the
distant future.  The first volume deals with blows against the
Empire brought about with an atomic-powered tank (known as Elephant
to its users), and the Empire and its demonic leader are only
peripherally concerned with the elements of the plot.  Probably the
original poster is confusing this book with Brian Daley's good-
but-not-great _Doomfarers of Corramonde_, which involves an APC crew
being summoned to fight a dragon in a war between Good and Bad.

Anyway, I cannot highly enough recommend the Saberhagen works; they
are among the best High Fantasy I have encountered; they are
carefully plotted, symbolically rich, exciting, and do not merely
feed power fantasies the way most such novels do. The Swords books
are also good, but not as exceptional.

While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am especially
interested in works where most or all of the population of the Earth
has been destroyed, but mostly I'm just asking for general
information.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 19:58:59 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Book search

cain@BONNIE.UCI.EDU (Timothy Cain) writes:
>I am looking for a particular book and am hoping that someone out
>there can help me find it. I cannot remember the title or the
>author, but the plot is very distinctive. The setting is Earth,
>several hundred years in the future. A nuclear war had occurred,
>but a computer prevented the bombs from exploding by unleashing
>some force which dampened nuclear reactions. A side effect of this
>force is that magic now works, and the Earth is dominated by
>magicians and sorcery, rather than scientists and technology.
>...

This is _Empire of the East_ by Fred Saberhagen (one of my favorite
authors).  The last time I was in the bookstore I noted that it was
being re-released in the form of a trilogy, the first of which, _The
Broken Lands_, has just been released. If you're lucky you can still
find a copy of the original form which costs about $.50 more than
_The Broken Lands_. You might also want to read Saberhagen's sequels
to this book; The Swords Trilogy (_The First Book of Swords_, _The
Second Book of Swords_, and _The Third Book of Swords_) and the Lost
Swords Trilogy (only two books of which are out; _The First Book of
Last Swords: Woundhealer's Story_ and the second one which just came
out in hardcover and who's name I can't remember). Of course, I'll
reccommend almost anything by Saberhagen; the Berserker series, his
Dracula series, _Specimens_, _Octagon_, etc. He's a very good
writer.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 19:21:34 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Book search

cain@BONNIE.UCI.EDU (Timothy Cain) writes:
>I am looking for a particular book

Actually, you're looking for two books. And if you REALLY want to be
some sort of completist, you're looking for ten books. Read on...

>and am hoping that someone out there can help me find it. I cannot
>remember the title or the author, but the plot is very distinctive.
>The setting is Earth, several hundred years in the future. A
>nuclear war had occurred, but a computer prevented the bombs from
>exploding by unleashing some force which dampened nuclear
>reactions. A side effect of this force is that magic now works, and
>the Earth is dominated by magicians and sorcery, rather than
>scientists and technology.

This book is a trilogy collected under the name "The Empire of the
East", by Fred Saberhagen, and is currently being reprinted as three
separate books, one at a time. The "Book of Swords" and "Book of
Lost Swords" series are set many, many years after these.

>The plot concerns the summoning of a tank and its crew from Vietnam
>(ie. the distant past) to combat Orcus.  The combination of magic
>and technology was handled superbly, which is why I want to find
>this book. I read it seven years ago, and I would like to read any
>more books by this author, if a list of his works is available.

And THIS book is "The Doomfarers of Coramonde", by Brian Daley,
which is in no way connected to Saberhagen's books. (Is you
confused!) This book has a sequel - "The Starfollowers of
Coramonde". Another Daley book you might want to try is "A Tapestry
of Magics", not set in the same world, but similar in feeling. Daley
has also written some "Star Wars" books, and a rather lame science
fiction series about an Earthman who inherits a starship, and his
offworld companion (the style reminded me of A.D.Foster).

Three books in the "Empire of the East" + five books so far in the
combined "Sword" series + two "Coramonde" books = ten books. In case
you were wondering.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 07:46:59 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Hemispherism (Northern)

Does anyone know of a story which occurs in the southern temperate
zone of an alien planet?  I can't think of a one.  Usually, if the
story happens in the southern hemisphere, it takes place in the
tropics or, occasionally, the antartic.  What I'm looking for here
is when the people go south, it gets colder rather than warmer.

I think there's two reasons for the lack of such settings.  The
obvious one is that most writers live in North America or Europe.
Less obvious, there is very little land between about 40 and 55
degrees south on Earth.  Thus there is little experience with such a
climate, at least south of the equator.  Evidently, authors seem to
be unable to invert their northern hemisphere experience.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 06:32:40 GMT
From: husc2!brun@rutgers.edu (brun)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Does anyone know of a story which occurs in the southern temperate
>zone of an alien planet?  I can't think of a one.  Usually, if the
>story happens in the southern hemisphere, it takes place in the
>tropics or, occasionally, the antartic.  What I'm looking for here
>is when the people go south, it gets colder rather than warmer.

Well, this isn't exactly an alien planet, but the "War of Powers"
series of Vardeman and Somebody (_The Sundered Realm_, _The City in
the Glacier_, and four others) was in just such a setting.  In the
north it was tropical; in the south it was frozen (with the lost
city of Athalau); and in between (naturally!) it was temperate.
That was where most of the series took place.  If you didn't mind
wading through gobs of gratuitous sex it was actually a pretty good
series; some very unusual ideas were used, and great play was made
of "magic as a science."  Also, aspects other than the geographic
were inverted (e.g. the good gods were gods of Chaos rather than
order).  Not bad books at all -- but they did pour on the porn!
(Can you say The Illuminatus Trilogy?  I *knew* you could!).

BTW, it turns out that the poles were shifted in the FIRST War of
Powers.  So maybe this doesn't count as being truly Southern
Hemispherical.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Todd

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 16:34:52 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

>Does anyone know of a story which occurs in the southern temperate
>zone of an alien planet?  I can't think of a one.  Usually, if the
>story happens in the southern hemisphere, it takes place in the
>tropics or, occasionally, the antartic.  What I'm looking for here
>is when the people go south, it gets colder rather than warmer.

"Star of Danger", by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I assume that by "it gets colder" you mean that the action takes
place south of the equator and not that the world has hot poles and
a cold equator.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 22:45:07 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@rutgers.edu (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

>dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Does anyone know of a story which occurs in the southern temperate
>zone of an alien planet?  I can't think of a one.  Usually, if the
>story happens in the southern hemisphere, it takes place in the
>tropics or, occasionally, the antartic.  What I'm looking for here
>is when the people go south, it gets colder rather than warmer.

This isn't an alien planet either, but in Gene Wolfe's _Book of the
New Sun_ the action does take place in the Southern hemisphere, and
it does get colder as you go south.

For those of you who haven't read this 4 book series, it is set on a
planet called Urth which is probably the planet Earth in the far
distant future (although this is never definitely stated in the
books, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that makes it seem
very likely that this is so).

William H. Ansley
uucp:  ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 17:07:00 GMT
From: sdcc15!gp1579@rutgers.edu (epstein)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #4

I am looking for more books in the cyberpunk genre.  I have read
Willam Gibson, Walter Jon Williams, and Steven Sansick.  Can anyone
help me find more?

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 18:11:14 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Cyberpunk (Was SF-LOVERS Digest V13 #4)

gp1579@sdcc15.UUCP writes:
>I am looking for more books in the cyberpunk genre.  I have read
>Willam Gibson, Walter Jon Williams, and Steven Sansick.  Can anyone
>help me find more?

Note Bene: I haven't actually read all of these, but any I haven't
read yet have at least been recommended to me.  Also, some of them I
didn't like, but they're cyberpunk nonetheless and you might like
them.  And one more disclaimer -- some of these are only borderline
Cyberpunk.

I've put ****'s by the ones I really like.

Bruce Sterling:
   Schismatrix
   The Artificial Kid
   Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk Anthology (editor)

Michael Swanwick: Vacuum Flowers  ****

Rudy Rucker: Software

Pat Cadigan: Mindplayers  ****

Alfred Bester:
   The Demolished Man
   Golem 100

Samuel Delany:
   Nova  ****
   Babel-17

John Brunner: Shockwave Rider

Vernor Vinge: True Names and Other Dangers

J.K. Jeter: Dr. Adder

Drexler: Engines of Creation (non-fiction)

Enjoy!

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 16:19 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: funny SF

As original poster of the 'humorous SF' message I would like to
thank everyone who responded, on the net and by e-mail. I carefully
wrote down all your suggestions and when I was in London this
Christmas, I augmented my collection considerably using these (yes,
Terry Pratchett is *very* funny indeed, and Spider Robinson is
great.  I haven't had time to read more). Anyway, I thought I'd
round things up by first giving the few suggestions I received by
e-mail which were not mentioned on the net. These are:

Robert Asprin: The Myth Adventure series
Jack Dann: Wandering Stars
Alan Dean Foster: Glory Lane

Second, I never got to mention my own favourites:
John Brunner: TIMESCOOP

Yes, Mr.'The Depressed Sheep Look Upon Zanzibar' himself has written
humorous SF, though this is the only one I have come across.  Does
anybody know if he did others?

Gordon Dickson: SPACIAL DELIVERY;SPACEPAW

Two very funny books. Spacepaw is a sequel to Spacial Delivery, but
can be read apart without problems.  These remind me very much of
the Hoka-stories, both in writing style and in the fact that these
are also about a planet inhabited by a bear-like people.  The
Dilbians however, look more like Grizzly bears than Teddy bears...

Frederic Brown: MARTIANS GO HOME;WHAT MAD UNIVERSE ?
Very good. Though 'Martians' was disappointing. But that was
probably because I had spent ten years trying to get hold of a copy.
No book can live up to the expectations you build during ten years'
searching.

Arthur C. Clarke:TALES FROM THE WHITE HART

Everyone is writing tales about bars these days. Clarke already did
it decades ago (I do not know if he was the first. Does anybody?).
The one about the special-effects man for a kiddie-show, who has to
come up with bigger and better fake-weapons in order to compete with
the ones Crunchies cornflakes give away is a scream.

Van Herck:SAM, OF DE PLUTERDAG [Sam, or the pluterday]
Without question *the* funniest book I know. Too bad it's in
Dutch... If any of the other Dutch SFLovers could give me some
information about the writer, I'd really appreciate it. All I know
is that he is a Flemish schoolteacher, and that the book - published
by Meulenhof - dates from 1968.

Leo Breebaart
breebaar @ hlerul5
Leiden, The Netherlands

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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Summary-line: 19-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #27
Date: 19 Jan 88 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 88 0909-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Donaldson (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 11:03 EST
From: Dan Harkavy <V066EDD9@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #13

As to the cost of the sequel of Mirror of Her Dreams...  There is a
third alternative, which I took...  The public library gets in new
books all the time and makes them available to people to read.
Whereas not every town has such a library, most locations with
colleges do.  Give them a try.

As to Covenant.  I think the argument has been done to death.  I
liked the book because TC was undeniably scum, and it was refreshing
to see such a change of view.  In very few places are we given the
chance to see an anti-hero who is being treated by a hero.  Although
Donaldson, at that time left much to be desired in his writing, he
had a number of intriguing characters whose interplay was a good
enough reason for me to 'push through' the first book.

Dan Harkavy
V066EDD9@ubvms

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 13:04:00 GMT
From: eds9305@acf3.nyu.edu (Eric Shafto)
Subject: Re: TC

ST801179@brownvm.BITNET (Garrett Fitzgerald)
>I am in the middle of a digest full of TC put-downs.  As far as I
>can tell, the people who don't like him decided that from the first
>book.  Does anyone who's read the full series _still_ dislike him?
>By the second series, 10 years after the first, he is a much more
>sympathetic character.

Unfortunately, I was dragged by God-knows-what through all six of
those books.  It was not TC that I resented, however.  It was SRD.

What a bleak universe!  Ick!

Anyone who will drag you through 600 pages of gloom, dangling a tiny
shred of hope in front of you, should be horsewhipped.

Regards,
Eric Shafto
eds9305@acf3.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 12:47:29 EST
From: <FNORD@SBCCVM>
Subject: Thomas Covenant

Lisa Evans writes:
>I agree with Michael Farren that Thomas Covenant is a repulsive
>book.  I tried to read it back in college, and gave up in Chapter
>Six of the first book, about the point where Covenant decides to
>rape a teenage girl he doesn't think exists.

  I appreciate your concerns about rape and it's victims, but this
is a science fiction forum, and you didn't have to make such a
lengthy exposition.
  In addition rape, while I am far from advocating it, is indeed a
fact of life. It has gone on for centuries, and probably will
continue to go on.  Perhaps it is the fault of our mixed up society
that it's victims feel so violated.  But who cares? If an author
includes a rape scene, that is no reason to denounce the whole novel
(although in this case we could all be pursuaded to make an
exception.)
  I personally was revulsed by that scene yet I read on because I
was intrigued at how revolting of a character he is. (anti-hero).
We are NOT supposed to 'identify' with him. As it has been said, we
are supposed to hate him.  And what you missed, was the way he PAYS
for that act over and over again in bigger and worse ways each time.

>In regards to fantasy books, I must agree that the Thomas Covenant
>series is beyond belief. He spends 90% of his time wallowing in
>self pity, and repeating either "Hellfire" or "Leper outcast
>unclean".

Hellfire and bloody damnation!
god I grew to hate that!

>Is there anyone out there who has at least has FINISHED the first
>book and hates it? <<<To you, thank you for your *informed*
>judgement!>>>

  I read the first trilogy once and kind of liked it, although I was
rather young at the time and didn't know that there was better stuff
out there.  I just liked the idea of Tolkien with a twist.

  When _The_Wounded_Land came out, I reread (more like struggled
through) the first chronicle again and then went on to TWL.  It was
the fourth book that I threw down in disgust.

>>I am in the middle of a digest full of TC put-downs.  As far as I
>>can tell, the people who don't like him decided that from the
>>first book.  Does anyone who's read the full series _still_
>>dislike him?  By the second series, 10 years after the first, he
>>is a much more sympathetic character.

  Yes! I learned to hate Covenant the hard way. And I must LOUDLY
disagree in that he is even more pathetic (although admittedly less
despicable) in the second series, going on and on about using/not
using the white gold, vowing not to kill anymore and then bitching
that people die because he doesn't use his power.  Absolutely
unbearable.  I did not read the second series, but I did hear that
TC dies at the end of _White_Gold_Wielder_ I'm sure all you TC fans
out there will be pleased.

>BTW, has anyone yet recommended Moorcock's Elric?

I recommend Elric, he is a much better characterization than TC, I
don't think there is a basis for comparison.
  In the book _Elric_At_The_End_Of_Time_ there is a story called
'The Stone Thing' in which MM performs and excellent spoof on his
Eternal Champion thing, the main character being a wonderfully
maimed caricature of Elric/Corum/Hawkmoon/et al. It is really
nice to see that MM doesn't take himself altogether too seriously.

Later,
FNORD@SBCCVM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 16:56:53 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Covenant -- A Sense of Proportion

ST801179@brownvm.BITNET (Garrett Fitzgerald) writes:
>I am in the middle of a digest full of TC put-downs.

Remember that we're talking about best-selling books here.  A lot of
people didn't care for them at all, but there were a lot of others
who not only did but were willing to shell out hard-cover prices for
them.  This newsgroup goes through recurrent bouts of
Tolkien-bashing, of Heinlein-bashing, of Donaldson-bashing.  Not
much effort is spent putting down the works of John Norman and
Sharon Greene.

Bevan@umass.BITNET (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston) writes:
>That any author, for any reason, could have the protagonist of a
>book, the person we're supposed to identify with and through whose
>eyes we observe the action, gratuitously rape a child disgusts me.

There is no reason you should read a book that disgusts you.  But
from the perpective of analyzing and assessing the book, three
points should be made.  a) We are not necessarily supposed to
identify with TC.  b) The rape was not gratuitous from the
perspective of either the plot or Covenant's behavior.  It was
wrong; that's something different.  c) NOTHING good came of it.  And
a good deal of evil.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 17:05:06 GMT
From: gypsy!jack@rutgers.edu (Jack Van Breen)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant series

DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.LABMED.UMN.EDU says:
>I have been reading the favorable and unfavorable remarks made in
>regard to Stephen Donaldson's heptology "The Chronicles of Thomas
>Covenant".  I have to say that, for the most part, I agree with
>those who give the series an "unfavorable" review.
>
>I read the first three books in their entirety.  By the third book
>("The Power that Preserves" if memory serves...), Donaldson had, it
>seemed, reached his stride.  I *used* to consider the final
>chapters, with Lord Foul seemingly vanquished by Covenant's
>acceptance of life as it is, to be worthy literature.
[Says abounch of stuff that basicly states the series was actually
_Finished_ after the first three books and that Mr. Donaldson should
have left well enough alone.]

Unfortunately, Mr Donaldson's contract called for not 3, not 6 but
12 BOOKS.  Be glad he stopped the series when he did.  I learned
this from a writer friend who had said Stephen (they know each
other) was concerned because he felt the series worked at three
books, but he had this contract, see, and how was he going to fulfil
it?  He now has a new series out, I may read it.

Jack Van Breen

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 22:16:06 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l
From: DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

Ellid@umass.BITNET writes:
>Would those of you who laud Covenant as an anti-hero, and a tragic
>character because of all his suffering, still defend him if his
>name turned out to be Thomasina, and she decided, for no reason at
>all, to smother a baby because it give her pleasure?  Would you
>still think this a good and worthy subject for heroic fantasy?

That's a good and hard question.

First, I want to observe that the parallel is not entirely accurate:
while "rape is *not* about sex," it can be sex in the mind of the
man committing it.  There is no socially-acceptable act which bears
the same relation to baby-smothering that sex does to rape.

Still, given that:

Yes, I could accept a baby-smothering antiheroine.  To make the
parallel as complete as possible, let's make her a woman who's
always wanted to smother a baby but couldn't, and suddenly put her
in a position where (a) she is physically capable of it and (b) she
can probably get away with it.

Let's also make her aware of the moral consequences of her action.

Covenant's "getting away with it" was his denial -- he could claim
that he hadn't "really" raped anyone as long as the Land wasn't
real.

To sum up: however badly written the books are (and they are!),
Donaldson is wrestling with an important moral issue: the
consequences of one's actions.

It is *not* possible to write about this topic without having your
protagonist commit some act with serious moral consequences.

It is a pity that some better fantasist hasn't tackled this issue --
and it's a strong condemnation of fantasy-as-it-stands that this is
the case.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 05:09:25 GMT
From: greg@june.cs.washington.edu (Greg Barnes)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant (Lisa Evan's posting)

deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff) writes:
>While I certainly agree with what Lisa does not like, there is one
>point that must be considered - "Covenant decides to rape a teenage
>girl he doesn't think exists". Remember, Covenant is convinced that
>he is DREAMING -- he is totally convinced that what is happening is
>unreal. How many of you have had a dream (e.g. sexual in nature)
>where you find yourself doing something (e.g. cheating on someone)
>that you would never do in real life? Do you wake up and condemn
>yourself for being mean and rotten? Since Covenant thinks its a
>dream, why shouldn't he satisfy himself, since it won't be hurting
>anyone else?

I think you're wrong here.  In *my* dreams I don't know (usually)
that I'm dreaming.  In *my* dreams, my basically selfish, immature
subconscious takes over.  On the other hand, in the novels, we are
led to believe that the land is real, so Covenant cannot be
dreaming.  Therefore, Covenant doesn't have the excuse you or me or
anyone else has about their dreams; his rational mind is at work,
and he decides that he will rape a girl.  I conclude that given a
similar set of circumstances on Earth, Covenant would do the same
thing.

I tried to think of some reasonably analagous situation, but they're
all pretty far-fetched.  The point is that Covenant, while he was in
a reasonably rational state, thought it would be okay to rape
someone.  His sole excuse was 'it won't hurt anybody.'  That doesn't
wash with me.  You contend that you "wake up and condemn yourself
for being mean and rotten" after a nasty dream.  I assume that means
that if you somehow had control and were rational while dreaming,
even if you knew you were dreaming, you wouldn't have yourself do
such things.  Well, Covenant was rational and he had control, and he
did rape someone.

Enough of that.  Some others have contended, probably correctly,
that the protagonist need not necessarily be a hero.  I agree.  Many
great books (I can name _Crime and Punishment_ and _Native Son_
right off the bat) have protagonists who commit heinous crimes.
_The Cherry Orchard_ has a whole cast of characters who sit around
and accomplish as much on their own as Covenant would (i.e.
nothing).  What sets these works apart from the Chronicles of TC is
that the authors use these shortcomings to introduce some great
universal themes (guilt, prejudice, etc.).  In my opinion, Donaldson
does no such thing with Covenant.  In my opinion, his writing style
is tiresome and wordy.  In my opinion, apart from the 'antihero'
Covenant, the series is a cheap LOTR ripoff.

Those are my opinions.  I've only read the first series, and I admit
the three books got successively better.  In retrospect, however, I
think they were a waste of my time.

Greg Barnes
ARPA:  greg@june.cs.washington.edu
UUCP:  ihnp4!uw-beaver!uw-june!greg

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 22:46:40 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

Michael Scott Shappe writes:
>Will someone puh-leez tell me why so many people seem to think that
>a character has to be sympathetic to make a decent novel?  I found
>the fact that Thomas Covenant was an unmitigated bastard the most
>refreshing treatment of the protagonist I've ever read.

I don't know - except I can't see why I should read a book which is
fiction (and therefore essentially for recreation) which pisses me
off.  I don't care whether Covenant dies or is tortured or lives - I
can't be made to read the next page - because I am not INTERESTED in
him.

Many books I've enjoyed had leading characters which I strongly
disagreed with or thought were idiots, etc. but I have never
completed a book which was about people who weren't interesting to
me.

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
9805 Scranton Rd.
San Diego, CA 92121
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 14:55:09 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) writes:
>   Damn it, this is just silly.  OF COURSE Covenant is not a hero.
>OF COURSE he is evil.  If anyone out there has never read a novel
>with an antihero as the protagonist, then that person has missed
>out on some of the great literature of all time. [...]
>To condemn Donaldson for trying to write about real people instead
>of cardboard cutouts is so hopelessly wrong.

But that is EXACTLY what I condemn Donaldson for, along with his
atrocious prose style.  The character of Covenant has no reason to
be so revolting; no literary purpose is served by his being so, and
no element of the plot (that I can remember - it's been some time
since I read the books) depends on Covenant's weakness to succeed.
If you replaced Covenant with an honest-to-god hero, the story would
work itself out in much the same way as it did.  The proper use of
an anti-hero would not allow such a situation; the protagonist's
weaknesses and antipathy would form an integral part of the
structure and point of the book, without which the entire story
would fail.  Someone, in another posting, claims that Saltheart
Foamfollower is the real hero of the first trilogy.  The fact that
someone can plausibly make such a claim is a potent indictment of
Donaldson's work.  In that light, Covenant is no more than a
spear-carrier, and his hideousness serves no good purpose.  Damned
if you do and damned if you don't; if Covenant is the real
protagonist, it makes no sense.  If he is not, then it makes no more
sense.

Good intentions do not result in good works.  Donaldson took on a
hard task, that of writing a fantasy of the heroic with a main
character who was anything but.  This is admirable, but the fact
that Donaldson was just not good enough to do it corrupts the whole
concept, insofar as the Covenant books are concerned.  While I
admire Donaldson's vision, I can only say that his skills as a
writer are far too feeble to make the attempt at realizing that
vision worthwhile.  The Covenant books are a failure, and a
disastrous failure at that.  The writing is bad, the
characterization feeble at best, and only the fairly well-wrought
plotline saves these books from being absolutely worthless.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #28
Date: 19 Jan 88 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 88 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Dick Lupoff Replies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 23:36:54 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Dick Lupoff replies

In a few articles which appeared three weeks ago or so, and have
thus vanished off the face of my machine, there was a discussion
started by Jerry Boyajian, and continued by Bob Gray, Steve Hix, and
(I'm sure) others, about the works of Richard Lupoff.  Bob and Steve
had some uncomplimentary things to say about Dick's work,
specifically with respect to Dick's use of racial stereotypes.
Knowing Dick, and figuring that he'd like to see the discussion, I
showed him a copy of some of the articles in question, and invited
him to give his own reply, which is appended here.  It's a pretty
long reply.

Your comments are welcome, and I'll pass 'em on to Dick (who has no
modem, so can't read them directly).  Any further replies will be
similarly posted.  Enjoy!

                   Begin Dick Lupoff's own words

Mike Farren printed up some comments from Jerry Boyajian, Bob Gray,
and Steve Hix and passed 'em along to me.  Apparently there was more
to the exchange than I saw.  I felt as if I'd walked into the middle
of a conversation -- of which I was the subject.  Which is a pretty
odd thing to do.  But Mike invited me to add my own comments,
s-o-o-o....

   First of all, I'm sorry that you don't like my stuff, Bob, but
what the hell, we all have our own likes and dislikes.  God knows
you're entitled to your opinion, and by all means, spend your time
and your money on books that you're going to enjoy!

   There is a peril here, that I've encountered before, concerning
the use of "offensive racial stereotypes."  An author may use such a
literary device for a number of reasons, and I have done so from
time to time for very specific reasons.  In an early book of mine,
INTO THE AETHER, I attempted to parody some late 19th century boys'
books, many of which abounded in "ORS's."  I took them one step
further, included a houseboy named Jefferson Jackson Clay who
shuffled and yowsa'd with the best (or worst) of 'em.  He took the
abuse and the slurs of his white employers until the time was ripe,
then turned the tables on them by becoming Menelik XX Chaka, smart,
tough and wicked.

   There, I said to myself, that will show up those nasty old racist
authors of the 1880s and 90s!  I've struck a blow for racial
justice!

   Next thing I know, I get a letter from a reader identifying
himself as black, furious with me for writing this book and with my
publisher for publishing it, because of its ORSs.  The reader
informs me that he threw the book down in a rage after a couple of
chapters.

   I wrote back to him, saying a few things about parody and satire,
and asked him, please, to read the rest of the book and write to me
again.  Hoping to achieve a *m*e*a*n*i*n*g*f*u*l* *d*i*a*l*o*g* with
the man.

   Alas, I never heard from him again.

   On a similar note, I once satirized the then-current practice of
using airline stewardesses as de facto geishas to coax bucks out of
sky-travelling businessmen.  That is, I _meant_ to satirize this
nasty, sexist practice.  What I did -- this was in SACRED LOCOMOTIVE
FLIES -- was show a near-future airline that used stews naked except
for high-spiked slippers with transparent heels with flashing
lightshows in 'em.  I thought everybody would get my point.  But
Trina Robbins, one of my oldest and dearest friends in the world of
cartooning and SF, told me that she was offended by that vicious,
sexist book.

   Incidentally, Jerry, LSF has only two demi-chapters of recycled
Ova Hamlet material in it.  One was originally a story called "Music
in the Air," and the other...the other...ah, ah, ah, I can't
remember.  Oh my God, my gray cells are dying.  _Thump_!  There goes
another one.  I just forgot the name of Abraham Lincoln's first-term
vice president!

   But I'll tell you, Jerry and Bob and anybody else who's out there
listening, an author likes to get strong reactions to his books.
Hey, everybody likes praise, but even brickbats are evidence that
you've reached somebody and touched a nerve.  Literary Muzak ain't
where it's at.  Lukewarm, neutral reviews are the second worst thing
that an author can get.  The only thing worse is to be ignored
altogether.

   And mixed reviews are not only par for the course, but can be
great fun.  For instance, I recently received a packet of reviews
from Arbor House, concerning COUNTERSOLAR! (a sequel to
CIRCUMPOLAR!).  Kirkus, which had gone bonkers over the first book,
complained that the second was simply a lifeless formulaic imitation
of the first.  But _Publishers Weekly_, which had been pretty cool
to the first book, just loved the second one and said that the
author has finally hit his stride.

   So Who Ya Gonna Believe?

   One other incident.  A few years ago I ran into a fellow author
in a bookshop.  He (or she, I don't want to identify the party) is
one of the most famous, popular, successful authors in the science
fiction/fantasy world.  Also somewhat older than I am with a far
longer career than mine behind him.

   "Gosh, sir," I said -- or something to this effect -- "I've been
reading your stuff since I was a schoolboy, and I really enjoy it
and really admire you."

   "That's very nice of you," said the Famous Older Author.  "You
know, I've followed your career from the outset.  I've read most of
your books, and enjoyed them."

   "Golly," I responded.  "Wow!"  Or something equally clever.

   "Yes," the FOA continued, "there were two in particular that I
enjoyed a lot."

   Well, there was no way I could leave that alone, was there?  So I
bit.  "Uh, if you don't mind my asking, could you tell me which two
they were?"

   "Oh, they were __________ and _________," the FOA said, naming my
own two least favorites of my books.  One, at least, was a very
early effort, a sort of apprentice/learning book, and I thought that
it had maybe one pretty good chapter in it.  The other was a
complete piece of hackwork, written to an editor's prescription when
I was desperate for a paycheck.  I hated it from the day I started
work on it.  Cheap, shallow junk.

   So Who Ya Gonna Believe?

   Jerry, it's interesting that you compare SWORD OF THE DEMON to
LORD OF LIGHT.  When SWORD OF THE DEMON was completed, a publicity
person at Harper & Row sent me a questionnaire about myself and the
book.  One of the questions was, "Is this book similar to any other
book, and if so, what makes your book different?"

   I scratched my head for a while, then answered, "Yes, my book is
very much like Roger Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT; the main difference is
that Zelazny's book is better than mine."

   They did not use that in their press release.

   Anyway, for anybody out there who cares, here's a list of my
fiction that's due for publication in 1988.

   1.  THE FOREVER CITY (Walker, January).  This is part of their
Millennium series aimed at "YA" (young adult) readers.  I.e.,
they're trying to hit the same age level as the old Heinlein juvies
did, that appeared in _Astounding_ and _Galaxy_ and F&SF with no
apologies.  Back when these were coming out I was astonished to
discover that they were "kid's books."  Authors in this series to
date are Kurtz, Zelazny, Gerrold, and Silverberg.  After my book
comes one by Poul Anderson, then one by one of my favorite authors,
Tom De Haven.  Not a perfect book, but it has some nice stuff in it
and I like it, overall.

   2.  THE BLACK TOWER (PHILIP JOSE FARMER'S THE DUNGEON: BOOK I)
(Bantam, July).  Uh, Farmer set up a background and general story
line for a six-book series.  I was hired to write Book I, others are
writing Books II through V, and I will _probably_ do Book VI.  I'm
not sure.  I've never done this kind of work before, I was not very
comfortable writing Book I, and I was then subjected to massive
editorial interference.  Someone cut almost 20,000 words from the
front half of the book ("It moves in too stately a fashion") and I
was then required to add a like amount of copy to the second half to
regain/retain the overall original length, and I was told pretty
specifically what the new copy should be.  ("Look, let's just open
it up at this point and you write a new subplot about some Japanese
marines kidnapped during World War II and stranded on this alien
planet and our adventurers meet them and they kidnap the heroine and
the hero has to rescue her from them but....")  I'm not making this
up.  I may wind up disowning the whole thing.  On the other hand, if
it sells a zillion copies and everybody loves it and it wins
glittering prizes, I may not.  Oh, the things we do for money!

   3.  GALAXY'S END (Ace, August).  This is a sequel to SUN'S END.
The book was finished in December, 1985.  First the publisher futzed
around for almost two years saying how much they loved the book but
would ask me for a very few, very teenie little revisions, but never
quite saying what they were.  Finally they told me; the revisions
seem to me very far from VF, VT, and they need them done yesterday,
of course.  So there may be some schedule slippage on this.  I think
the book has some very good stuff in it, but it's structurally weak.

   4.  THE MAN WHO DREW MONSTERS (Hypatia Press, October; Bantam in
'89) This is a murder mystery that I wrote as a training exercise
when I first got my computer.  Maybe I shouldn't admit that.  I had
very modest expectations for it -- was looking for somebody like
Walker or St.  Martin's to bring it out as part of their massive
mystery programs.  Instead, Bantam got it after some apparently
spirited competition and is acting very enthusiastic.  I now have
very high hopes for the book.  Among other things, I like it a lot,
purely as a novel.  The title, incidentally, is not yet carved in
granite.

   5.  "Hyperprise 21.5" (_Science Fiction Eye_ #3).  I hope you
folks have been getting this new magazine.  It's pretty impressive.
Third issue should probably be out around March.  My story was
written some years ago for a British anthology that got cancelled
(horror story #345263578).  It was just about the last of my older
surrealistic/psychedelic would-be mindblower stories.

   6.  "Mr. Tindle" (F&SF, whenever Ed Ferman schedules it).  Ran
into Bob Silverberg at The Other Change of Hobbit's tenth
anniversary party.  He was talking to a couple of younger writers,
and shortly after I joined the group he went into a lecture on the
spiritual discipline of writing a short story every now and then, no
matter how many commitments you have for novels.  He kept glaring at
me and shaking his finger (or did I just imagine that?) so I went
home and wrote this one.  By golly, it _was_ hard to do.  I'd got
into the novelist's pace, you see.  Found myself spending the first
four pages or so just setting this story up, nothing really
_happening_.  Well, you can do that in a nove.  But in shorts, it's
hard to get away with that.  Well, finally got the thing written.
It's very quiet, low-keyed, slightly John Collier - Lord Dunsany -
James Thurber-ish.

   Phew, is that enough?  Oh, lemme see.  Somewhere farther along
there will be TIME'S END, completing the SUN'S END/GALAXY'S END
series, and TRANSTEMPORAL!, completing the
CIRCUMPOLAR!/COUNTERSOLAR! series.

   Speaking of this series
[CIRCUMPOLAR!/COUNTERSOLAR!/TRANSTEMPORAL!], and back to the ORS's,
Jerry and Bob, I would like to point out that the "real" historical
characters who appear in these books are rather heavily researched,
and are portrayed as accurately as I can get 'em.  The research
started as a spin-off of a project called LOVECRAFT'S BOOK, when I
found myself drowning in my own research materials.

   The von Richthofens, Hervert von Bismarck and Ernest Udet in
CIRCUMPOLAR!, Juan Peron and Eva Duarte in COUNTERSOLAR!, and a good
many others, are based on biographies, contemporary and historical
documents.  Of course, the uses to which I put 'em are something
else.  These _are_ Saturday-matinee type stories, with white hats
and black hats.  Even so, I don't think the characters are
completely one-dimensional -- especially Juan and Evita.

   My parents spent some time in Argentina during the Peron era, and
while my father is no longer living, my mother is emphatically alive
and kicking.  When I was doing the research for COUNTERSOLAR! I
phoned her and asked for her recollections of those days.  She said
she could hardly remember anything, after all it was forty years
ago, but she'd see if she could come up with anything for me....

   Then she sat down and sent me something like a sixteen page
letter, including family photos I'd never seen before, of both my
parents taken on an Argentine _estancia_ in 1946.  Really knockout
stuff!  Captions like "This was the only time in his life that your
father ever sat on a horse.  He was frightened to death!"

   I tipped my hat by putting my parents into the book -- they're a
couple of anonymous travellers who appear in a shipboard scene near
the end of the story.  I didn't tell my mother about it until the
book was published, then told her simply to look for a surprise in
it.  She phoned me when she spotted the scene.  She was really happy
about it.  It was a nice moment.

   And, ah, I've had an offer from the software company that
produced Rob Swigart's PORTAL, for rights to CIRCUMPOLAR!  Well,
they want more than rights.  They want me to do a lot of the
development work on the computer-oriented version of the book.
Sounds like a lot of fun.  Also a lot of work.  Also will require me
to upgrade my hardware, which at present is an Eagle PC with two
floppies, a monochrome screen and a Leading Edge keyboard.  Funny
hybrid system, but it runs Leading Edge Word Processor software just
fine, which does 95% of my work, and MS-DOS 2.1 for the other 5%.

   But I think I'm going to need a graphics card and a color monitor
to do this new work, and as long as I'm upgrading I will probably
put in a hard disk.  All of which makes it questionable as to
whether it would be practical to upgrade _this_ system at all.  Mike
came over and checked it out for me, and it looks as if there might
be some Big Problems.  [Editor's note: there are.  The Eagle just
doesn't have enough of a power supply to drive a hard disk, and
there is some doubt as to its ability to do so even with a bigger
supply.]

   If I can afford it, I'll just sell this system and buy a new one.
If I can afford it.  I think that may be my secret mantra.

   A far cry from my first job in the computer world.  In 1958 I was
hired to produce manuals for UNIVAC II and sent to a programming
class.  Of course there were no UNIVAC II's yet, so our programs ran
on UNIVAC I with a simulator.

   Sometimes I feel like a Spad pilot trying to fly an F-16.  My
first question is "Where is the propellor?"  And my second is, "With
no wires to hold them on, why don't the wings fall off?"

   All in a day's work, my friends, and it's all fun.

   Thank you for your kind attention.

Dick Lupoff
January 14, 1988

                     End of Lupoff's Own Words

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #29
Date: 19 Jan 88 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 88 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:

                Books - Gibson (4 msgs) & Harrison &
                        LeGuin (4 msgs) & Lewis (3 msgs) &
                        Book Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Emanuel.henr@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #4

   I just finished reading Neuromancer by Gibson.  What a great book
!!!  I would have never read it if it were not for the folks on this
net.

   My question now is.... Is there more ?  I liked Case as a
character.  Are there more Gibson books in the same setting
featuring Case and perhaps Molly ?

Keith J. Emanuel
Software Systems & Tools
Xerox Corp.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 03:19:20 GMT
From: sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #4

Emanuel.henr@XEROX.COM writes:
>   I just finished reading Neuromancer by Gibson.  What a great
>book! I would have never read it if it were not for the folks on
>this net.
>   My question now is.... Is there more ?  I liked Case as a
>character.
>   Are there more Gibson books in the same setting featuring Case
>and perhaps Molly ?

There aren't any more books with Case and Molly, however the
evolution of the AI's is continued in Count Zero and the Finn makes
another apperance.  Unfortunately, Count Zero isn't any where near
as good a book as Neuromancer (in my opinion).  It doesn't have the
same drive that Neuromancer has, and is a bit scattered between its
different plot lines, which never really converge until the very end
of the book when they're all tied together far too quickly for my
tastes.  Taken in small segments the writing is still just as tight
and good, but the segments don't tie together well.

Molly shows up in the short story Johnny Mnemonic in the Burning
Chrome collection and the Finn pops up (once again) in the title
story Burning Chrome.  If you like Gibson, you'll probably enjoy
Burning Chrome.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!jack,ihnp4!jack, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@amos.ling.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 17:29:30 GMT
From: sdcc15!gp1579@rutgers.edu (epstein)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #4

Emanuel.henr@XEROX.COM writes:
>   I just finished reading Neuromancer by Gibson.  What a great
>book !!!  I would have never read it if it were not for the folks
>on this net.
>   My question now is.... Is there more ?  I liked Case as a
>character.  Are there more Gibson books in the same setting
>featuring Case and perhaps Molly ?

A sequel (sort of) to _Neuromancer_ is _Count Zero_.  Gibson has
also published some short stories in a collection called _Burning
Chrome_.

If you liked Gibson, you might also want to try Steven Swanwick and
Walter Jon Williams.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 15:49:43 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #4

Emanuel.henr@XEROX.COM writes:
>I just finished reading Neuromancer by Gibson. What a great book!!!
>I would have never read it if it were not for the folks on this
>net.
>
>My question now is... Is there more? I liked Case as a character.
>Are there more Gibson books in the same setting featuring Case and
>perhaps Molly?

You too?

I had never even heard of Gibson or "Neuromancer" until I read the
discussion on the net. Lucky I did.

The book has never been in the bookstores here, so I had to order
it. THAT was an ordeal in itself! Espcially since the manager told
me it was impossible for me to order a paperback, TWO WEEKS AFTER I
HAD ORDERED IT!

So anyway, I eventually got it.

I bought "Burning Chrome" first, but decided not to read it until I
had finished "Neuromancer". I also bought "Count Zero".

"Burning Chrome" is a series of Gibson's short stories. I have only
read the first story, _Johnny Mnemonic_ which starred Molly.

So if you liked "Neuromancer" and the characters, maybe you will
meet them again in the other two books.

I am only half way through "Neuromancer" so far, and as soon as I
finish it, I will read "Burning Chrome" then "Count Zero".

It is a really believable future!

Has anyone heard any more about a possible movie of "Neuromancer"?

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
{utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 19:01:53 GMT
From: mwm@eris (Mike (My watch has windows) Meyer)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

aaron@garfield.UUCP (Aaron Shaw) writes:
>  I'm looking for two books- The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted,
>and The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat.  I think that they
>were published in 1965, or around there, and are hardcover.

The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted is copyright 1987. If it was
published in 1965, Bantam is sharper than I think.

The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat is an SF book club
compendium, including The SSR, The SSR's Revenge, and The SSR Saves
the World.

>qThe local Coles tells me that I will never find them in their stores

Certainly true of The Adventures of the SSR. The SSR Gets Drafted
was also published by the SF Book club. The best bet is to find
someone who's a member, and order them if they are still on the list
of things you can order (have to be there so you have the magic
order #).

>but I should check the used books stores.

Probably the best bet. Checking stores that specialize in SF will
help a lot, as those are about the only places you see the book club
editions of things.

Mike Meyer
mwm@berkeley.edu
ucbvax!mwm
mwm@ucbjade.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 88 10:48:35 EST
From: rang%cps45x@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang)
Subject: LeGuin

There seems to be a lot of argument over "The Dispossessed" lately.
It's not one of my favorite books by LeGuin, but was OK.  One of her
books which I really liked was "The Eye of the Huron"; it also
examines two cultures which come into conflict (though in this case
the cultures coexist on a ex-prison colony planet).  Very good
writing, if anyone wants to try it.  Comments, anyone?

Anton Rang

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 88 21:17:42 EST
From: dgg@dandelion.ci.com (David G. Grubbs)
Subject: Earthsea Trilogy.

While in high school and college, I read all three books of the
Earthsea Trilogy as they came out (1968, 72, 74 I believe).  I was
not bored.  Rather, I was enthralled.  My wish at the time was to
have encountered them at an earlier age.  A few years later, I
reread them and a few years ago I read them again.  They are still
charming and subtle books as are the best of juveniles: they have as
much to offer to adult readers as to children.

I'd say anyone who is bored by Leguin's fine writing probably reads
too slowly, has a poorly developed imagination, takes too many
stimulants (so to decrease attention span), or still wallows in the
kind of defensive, puerile derision of anything imperfectly
understood that makes some teenagers so humorless.

Anything by Leguin is worth reading once.  The Wizard of Earthsea,
The Tombs of Atuan, and The Farthest Shore are each worth revisiting
many times.  But you might plan to skip a few years between
childhood and the shedding of the fear of childhood as they will be
better accepted by children and true adults than by adolescents of
any age.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 08:53 PST
From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: LeGuin

Aside from the natural comment about everyone having their own
opinion, the only thing that I have to add to this is that I
disliked LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness and Always Coming Home, but
I really enjoyed the EarthSea trilogy and all of her short story
collections.  My question is, why is there such a radical difference
in style between the different works?  I can't think of another
author who writes in such wildly disparate styles.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 01/12/88 15:44:08 EST
From: #GGGALA%WMMVS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Earthsea Trilogy

     I felt that the Earthsea Trilogy was a mixture of Juvenile and
Adult reading. LeGuin seemed to start out with a Juvenile book in
mind, but ended up with Adult reading. The first book _Wizard of
Earthsea_ definitely had a younger audience in mind.  I read that
book almost eight years ago, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. I couldn't
wait to get the second book.
     I was a little disappointed when I read the second book, but I
think I wasn't ready for it. It was over my head. I have read it
again since then, and I have enjoyed it as much as the first.
     The last book in the series is strange. It doesn't seem to have
a particular audience in mind. It merely is a story that anyone can
read. The more mature a person is, the more that person will get out
of the book.

#GGGALA@WMMVS
215 Sount Main Street
Bridgewater, VA 22812

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 88 15:28 EST
From: RANDOM/HAMPSHIRE COLLEGE
From: <DPARMENTER%HAMPVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Fantasy recommendations

I'm surprised that few people have even mentioned this, but
sometimes I think I'm alone in my appreciation of this...so here
goes...

The novels and stories of C.S. Lewis.  While it is true that these
stories are very heavily laced with religious significance, they are
nonetheless, wonderful fantasy adventures.

Of course most SFL readers are aware of The Chronicles of Narnia,
and I think I've said this before, but I recommend reading them in
the following order (from an essay by Lewis):

   The Magician's Nephew
   The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe
   A Horse and His Boy
   Prince Caspian
   The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
   The Silver Chair
   The Last Battle

I believe that they make a bit more sense this way.  I also
recommend the book Past Watchful Dragons by Walter Hooper, which is
a very good guide to the series.

The "Space Trilogy" (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra and That
Hideous Strength) can be read in published order; however, one might
consider inserting the fragment The Dark Tower right after OoTSP.
This fragment is available in the book The Dark Tower and Other
Stories.  It is a parallel earth/time travel story that ranks with
the best.  It is so good in fact, that I recommend reading it at
your own risk, because it's a fragment, and the taste of the story
that we get is so tempting and so promising, that when it ends,
you'll be crying for more.

These are without question, among the best SF/Fantasy books I've
ever read.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 01:39:43 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations

DPARMENTER@hampvms.BITNET (RANDOM/HAMPSHIRE COLLEGE) writes:
>Of course most SFL readers are aware of The Chronicles of Narnia,
>and I think I've said this before, but I recommend reading them in
>the following order (from an essay by Lewis):
>
>   The Magician's Nephew
>   The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe
>   A Horse and His Boy
>   Prince Caspian
>   The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
>   The Silver Chair
>   The Last Battle

   Oh, I can't agree (even if Lewis thinks so).  That is the
chronological order.  I would recommend reading them in the
following order:

   The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe
   Prince Caspian
   The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
   The Silver Chair
   A Horse and His Boy
   The Magician's Nephew
   The Last Battle

TLTWATW is (I believe) the first written.  It defines Narnia and the
role of the royal children.  It is the definitive story of the
formative youth of Narnia.  The second two are the definitive
stories of Narnia in its maturity.  You should read the first three
before you read 'The Silver Chair', since you should know who
Trumpkin and Caspian are.  'A Horse and His Boy' can be read anytime
after TLTWATW; however it is not a center piece.  I would recommend
reading it after you know the world and have a taste for it and want
more, even if the story is not pivotal.

'The Magician's Nephew' and 'The Last Battle' aren't really part of
the Narnia story per se.  They tell you where Narnia came from and
what happened to it, but you wouldn't care so much if you didn't
love Narnia to begin with.

My personal favorites are 'The Voyage of the Dawn Treader' and 'The
Silver Chair'.  TLTWATW is very good, but is more juvenile than
TVOTDT and TSC.  So, for that matter, are AHAHB and TMN.  I don't
much care for the 'The Last Battle' -- it's good in spots, but only
in spots.

   Incidentally, 'The Great Divorce' and 'The Screwtape Letters' are
delightful reading if you enjoy fantasy and are not put off by
Christian apologia.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 88 23:03:40 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICS.UCI.ED>
To: Young Je Koh <ins_ayjk%jhunix.uucp@ICS.UCI.EDU>,
To: Subject: Re: Fantasy books

ins_ayjk@jhunix.UUCP (Young Je Koh) writes:
>   I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer and now
>I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for their
>favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY stuff.  No
>sf please, only fantasy.
>   Since my background on the subject is still very limited, my
>selection of these books are made by whatever is most 'visible' in
>the SF/Fantasy section of book stores.

Since I haven't seen it mentioned yet:

The Chronicles of Narnia, by C. S. Lewis.  Written for children, but
not at all childishly.

The Chronicles consist of these books -- I think this is the correct
order.

   The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe  (should probably come first)
   Prince Caspian
   A Horse and His Boy
   Voyage of the "Dawn Treader"
   The Silver Chair
   The Last Battle
   The Magician's Nephew
      (set before "Lion, Witch, Wardrobe", but written as following
      it.  Personally, I read it last, and think that's its right
      place.)

Now, for what I really want to ask: how do people feel about the
Silent Planet series ("Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and
"That Hideous Strength", also by C. S. Lewis)?  Personally, I think
it should probably be placed on the list of recommendations, but I'm
interested in what the general reaction would be.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 05:20:34 GMT
From: thomas@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Thomas Summerall)
Subject: Teen Sci-Fi Short Stories

This is a pretty obscure question, but here goes...

Can anyone tell me anything about these books:

When I was about fourteen I picked up two books from my local
library.  They were both anthologies by the same publisher and
possibly the same editor.  One was horror and one was sci-fi.  They
were oversized books with about twelve medium length stories apiece.
There were a few black and white illustrations.

The stories were really incredible, as I remember.  They must have
been, because after almost ten years I can still remember many of
them vividly.  In the sci-fi anthology there was an incredible story
bout a kid who had powerful telekinetic powers.  He was eventually
captured by an unnamed government and then managed to escape.  One
thing I remember about this story is that it is the first account of
telekinesis I had read in which the person applied the power to his
own body and was thereby able to fly.

In the horror book there was a tale of a kid who was sold in a
feudal society to the lord of the manor who turned out to be a
vampire.  The kid ended up meeting a whole group of strange,
fawn-like creatures who drank blood.  They gave some to him, and the
inevitable happened...

I have always wanted to own copies of these books.  I went back to
my local library, but couldn't find them.  Has anyone out there read
these?  Who published them?  Where can I find them?  Please e-mail
responses to me.

Thanks in advance...

Thomas Summerall
H.B. 3445
Dartmouth College
Hanover, NH    03755
thomas%eleazer.dartmouth.edu@RELAY.CS.NET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #30
Date: 19 Jan 88 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Jan 88 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 19 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Nourse (7 msgs) &
                             Pini (2 msgs) &
                             Reynolds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 88 09:10:03 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Alan Nourse

I read several books by Alan Nourse when I was 14 or 15. Thoroughly
enjoyed them. The only title I can for certain attribute to him is
"The Beyond", about paranormal powers beginning to develop among
star faring Terrans.

Another that I think is by him is about a war between Earthbound
people and other humans who chose to live in the rest of the solar
system. The offEarth people keep making raids on Earth to steal
women, which angers the Earth types no end. What you don't get told
for quite some time is the reason behind this: solar radiation
causes the mutation of the X chromosone in the 23rd pair so that
only boy babies can be born off Earth.  Have no idea of the name of
this book...

The third book I remember from about this same time period that I am
almost certain is by Nourse is about parallel worlds...a naked girl
appears on the streets of Earth, and a boy is brought up spending
half his time in the alternate world, half his time in his own
world, so he can hopefully make some sense of the other world.
Eventually matter transmission is developed as a result of an
agreement between the two worlds.  Don't know the name of this book,
either.

All three books are fairly similar in style, and probably can be
found on the juvenile shelves...but I never think to look for them.
Alan Nourse's style always seemed to me very similar to Andre
Norton's style, and the initials always made me wonder if she had
tried writing under this name.  But, it has been at least 15 years
since I read Nourse, and a good 10 since I've read Norton, so I'm
probably mistaken!!

Sheri
McLean, VA
(703) 285-5497

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 21:17:22 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

>Another that I think is by him is about a war between Earthbound
>people and other humans who chose to live in the rest of the solar
>system.

"Raiders from the Rings"

>The third book I remember from about this same time period that I
>am almost certain is by Nourse is about parallel worlds...a naked
>girl appears on the

"The Universe Between"

>I read several books by Alan Nourse when I was 14 or 15. Thoroughly
>enjoyed them. The only title I can for certain attribute to him is
>"The Beyond", about paranormal powers beginning to develop among
>star faring Terrans.

I read Nourse at the same age, with the same enjoyment.  (I wonder
how they'd read now.)  "The Beyond" doesn't ring any bells, but two
others worth reading are/were

"The Mercy Men" (aka "A Man Obsessed"), about a man who volunteers
for medical experimentation as the only way to gain access to a man
he's been hunting.

"Star Surgeon", about a young humanoid trying to become a doctor in
a galaxy in which humanity's contribution is that nobody else ever
thought of inventing medicine.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 04:59:25 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Alan Nourse

I also enjoy Alan Nourse.  He wrote many "medical SF" books,
including Bladerunner (no relation to the movie), a novel about
black-market doctors.

Karen Black

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 00:44:08 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!cerebus!dalea@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dale M. Arends
From: X5706)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA (LT Sheri Smith USN) writes:
>I read several books by Alan Nourse when I was 14 or 15. Thoroughly
>enjoyed...  Another that I think is by him is about a war between
>Earthbound people and other humans who chose to live in the rest of
>the solar system. The offEarth people keep making raids on Earth to
>steal women, which angers the Earth types no end. What you don't
>get told for quite some time is the reason behind this: solar
>radiation causes the mutation of the X chromosone in the 23rd pair
>so that only boy babies can be born off Earth.  Have no idea of the
>name of this book...

This book is "Raiders from the Rings".  It is one of the books that
hooked me on Science Fiction as a young mental adventurer.  In my
opinion, it is one of his best.

>The third book I remember from about this same time period that I
>am almost certain is by Nourse is about parallel worlds...a naked
>girl appears on the streets of Earth, and a boy is brought up
>spending half his time in the alternate world, half his time in his
>own world, so he can hopefully make some sense of the other world.
>Eventually matter transmission is developed as a result of an
>agreement between the two worlds.  Don't know the name of this
>book, either.

This one is "The Universe Between".  It turns out that the other
'universe' is between ours and others and has a different number of
dimensions.  This enables them to move between places (relative) in
our universe that are far apart but (relative) close together in
theirs.  Some interesting speculation on sense perceptions in
unusual dimensional environments.

Alan Edward Nourse also wrote a story, "Star Surgeon" about a
medical ship where one of the characters had an empathic (receiving
and transmitting) "pet".  This one is a fun, high-fluff content,
book.  "Star Surgeon" was recently reprinted, as was "Mercy Men",
another of his books.

Dale M. Arends
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
amdahl!cerebus!dalea

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 20:02:43 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

LT Sheri Smith USN writes:
>Alan Nourse's style always seemed to me very similar to Andre
>Norton's style, and the initials always made me wonder if she had
>tried writing under this name.  But, it has been at least 15 years
>since I read Nourse, and a good 10 since I've read Norton, so I'm
>probably mistaken!!

You are.  I met Alan Nourse at a sf con last year.  He doesn't do
much writing anymore.  Andre Norton still writes but (I think) at a
lower volume than previously.  Anyway, Nourse lives near Ellensberg
WA and Norton lives in Florida (I think, I'm sure to be corrected if
I'm wrong.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 02:37:06 GMT
From: John_Joseph_Spert@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

I first read Nourse's books twenty years ago and still enjoy reading
things like Raiders from the Rings and Scavengers of Space every few
years.  They're nice enjoyable yarns.  Like Andre Norton's books, he
manages to make philosophical/ethical points without being
obtrusive.

John
john_joseph_spert@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 22:19:20 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA (LT Sheri Smith USN) writes:
>Alan Nourse's style always seemed to me very similar to Andre
>Norton's style, and the initials always made me wonder if she had
>tried writing under this name.

I believe that A.N. was an MD...he wrote some mainstream novels with
a medical slant, as well as several about a galactic medical
service.  (Not the same as James White's "Sector General" stories.)

His work "tastes" very 1950s to me (but then, Asimov still tastes of
the late '30s, even his most current work, to me).

I liked them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 88 18:39 EST
From: RANDOM/HAMPSHIRE COLLEGE
From: <DPARMENTER%HAMPVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Cute elves!!

From: ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
>Rather than a novel, I would recommend a comic: Elfquest.

I won't give you any problem with that recommendation, except to add
certain constraints.  The "Essential" Elfquest is the first 20-issue
story by Wendy and Richard Pini.  The best form in which to read it
are the four, color volumes that collect 5 issues at a time in
beautiful, full-process color.

The EQ Novel is redundant, and offers little insight.

The EPIC comics reissue of EQ offers 4-color repro, and 1 or 2 new
pages of story and art per issue.  These additional scenes are nice,
but often superfluous.  Worst of all, the reprints are paced badly,
since each issue contains fewer story pages than each EQ original
issue, hence 23 pages of a 32 page story in one issue, the other 9
in the next issue with some filler.

Blood of Ten Chiefs is okay, if you like those shared-world
anthologies, a genre that is quickly becoming extremely dull.  Both
the novel and this anthology share the problem that the story should
be a synthesis of writing AND illustration, in prose, it loses
something.

The new series, Siege at Blue Mountain is pretty enough, but seems a
bit crass and commercial.  None of the issues have been memorable,
and they do not stand on their own, rather seeming like a story
arbitrarily cut into comics-sized chunks.  Worst of all, the
schedule is so lackadaisical that I'd swear it's been a good year
since an issue came out, not that the story has me losing any sleep
over it.

Don't get me wrong, in spite of my many reservations, I still will
defend the original run of EQ in its color form as one of the better
fantasy sagas I've ever read.  There are swords and sorcery, but no
dragons, knights or evil wizards.  There are some memorable
characters and situtions and a believable fantasy setting and some
artwork that ranges from slightly amateurish to spectacular.

Dan Parmenter
box 808
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA  01002
BITNET: dparmenter@hampvms
CSNET: dparmenter%hamp@umass-cs
UUCP: ...seismo!hampvms.bitnet!dparmenter
INET: dparmenter%hampvms.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 06:18:22 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Cute elves!!

>>Rather than a novel, I would recommend a comic: Elfquest.
>I won't give you any problem with that recommendation, except to
>add certain constraints.

We'll, I'll give you some problems with the recommendation. I had
Elfquest forced on me by some well-meaning friends when it first
came out. It's a good story, and got some decent art. But, frankly,
if it had been published as a novel, it would have been mid-list.
It's only real claim to fame was that it was one of the first
innovative comics to do what Fantasy novels have been doing for
years. In comparison with other Fantasy novels, it's very, very
average.

So, from a comics point of view, it's innovative and wonderful. But
when you start crossing it over into mainstream SF/Fantasy, it isn't
anything special. I didn't think so then, I still don't.

>Blood of Ten Chiefs is okay, if you like those shared-world
>anthologies, a genre that is quickly becoming extremely dull.  Both
>the novel and this anthology share the problem that the story
>should be a synthesis of writing AND illustration, in prose, it
>loses something.

Shared world anthologies are fine. Blood of Ten Chiefs was what
quickly went dull. And stupid. Richard Pini has never heard of the
words "edit" or "continuity" -- even though he 'edited' the thing.
As a single example, non-religious elves in one story rapidly became
druidic elves in the next, just as rapidly becoming non-religious
elves in the next. All, theoretically speaking, in the same
time-line.

BoTC brought over all that was bad with Elfquest with non of the
fun.

>The new series, Siege at Blue Mountain is pretty enough, but seems
>a bit crass and commercial.

The new series seems to simply be the old series, repackaged and
rehashed.  Not as spontaneous, not as much fun, not as original.
Boring.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 16:52:17 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF by G. W. M. Reynolds

             WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF by G. W. M. Reynolds
              Dover, 1975 (originally published 1846),
                        ISBN 0-486-220005-2
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Like VARNEY THE VAMPIRE (which I reviewed last year), this is
not your normal horror novel.  It's old (almost 150 years) and it's
deceptively long (though it's only 150 pages, they are 8-1/2" by 11"
with very small print, or about 120,000 words).  Unlike VARNEY THE
VAMPIRE, however, people are sure who wrote it.  E. F. Bleiler, in
his introduction, describes Reynolds as being involved in one
"cause" after another, including the temperance movement, the early
women's liberation movement, and various political causes.  Much of
his philosophy comes through in this novel, particularly his
campaign against the anti-Semitism of his time.

     WAGNER, THE WEHR-WOLF is much more readable than VARNEY THE
VAMPIRE.  It doesn't have the padding that VARNEY has.  There are
two reasons for this.  The first is that it is shorter and hence
less in need of padding.  The second is that Reynolds apparently
used every plot thread that occurred to him while he was writing the
novel (which, like so many of that time, appeared as a series of
installments in magazines).  So a plot includes helpless maidens
being thrown into brutal convents, shipwrecks on desert islands, the
Faust legend, the Rosicrucians, the imperial Turkish court, the
Inquisition, and a lot lot more I can't remember.  You see, Wagner
falls in love with Nisida, the deaf-mute daughter of the Count of
Riverola, who dies leaving his estate to his son Francisco, whom he
hates, unless Nisida recovers before her thirty-sixth birthday.
Francisco loves Flora, Nisida's maid, who was orphaned early in
life, as was her brother Alessandro, who got a position in the
foreign service and was sent to Turkey, where he became an apostate
and rose to become the Grand Vizier.  Meanwhile, Nisida has Flora
thrown into the Carmelite convent to keep her away from Francisco,
and there Flora meets the Countess of Arestino, who had pawned her
husband's jewels with the Jewish pawnbroker Issachar ben Solomon to
get money for her lover, Manuel d'Orsini, to pay his gambling debts.
But The Count of Arestino discovered this and had her thrown into
the convent, while Manuel and the bandit Stephano go to Issachar's
house, where they fight a duel, so that when the police come they
find blood on Issachar's floor and accuse him of sacrificing
Christian children children and hand him over to the Inquisition.
Meanwhile, Wagner has been thrown into prison and is about to be
executed and Nisida has been captured by Stephano, who was carrying
her off when their ship was ship-wrecked on a desert island.  Just
before the execution, Wagner turns into a wolf, scares everyone, and
escapes.  Then he hears that Nisida has been carried off and then
ship-wrecked, so he goes searching for her, runs into a storm, and
gets ship-wrecked on--you guessed it--the same island.  Of course,
this is because the Devil has diverted his ship so that he could
tempt him as he did Faust (from whom Wagner got his lycanthropy),
but Wagner resists so an angel appears who sends him to the
Rosicrucians.  You got that?  Anyway, Nisida is rescued by the Grand
Vizier, who is really Alessandro, and returns to Florence, as does
Wagner in a boat conveniently abandoned by the Turks.  Meanwhile, at
least three of the main characters are in the hands of the
Inquisition, Nisida is still plotting against Flora, the Turkish
army is at the gates of the city, and things are generally heating
up.

     Never let it be said that the plot lags.  The writing is
florid, but not overly so.  Many, but not all, of characters are
one-dimensional--but then with this many characters, that's hard to
avoid.  Those who prefer clean-cut "Campbellian" prose will not find
this their cup of tea, but for students of the Gothic horror novel,
it's a must-read.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #31
Date: 21 Jan 88 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 88 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Donaldson (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 16:55:52 GMT
From: jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

Well, if nothing else Donaldson at least created controversy which
keeps his name popping up (and undoubtedly makes $$$$ for Mr.
Donaldson since some people will pick up his books just to see what
everyone else was talking about).  Now for my $0.02, I didn't hate
the books as much as some here.  I have read all 6 twice each.  I
thought Covenant was thoroughly disgusting, but there was something
there that kept me going.  It was extremely difficult to read them
the second time and I don't expect to ever read them a third, but
perhaps if I get really depressed I can read it and see there are
even more disgusting people in the 'world'.  My favorite character
was probably Mhoram, with Banner(?) coming in second.

Jim Clausing
CIS Department
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@ohio-state.arpa
jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 19:39:35 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

> djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
>> Ellid@umass.BITNET
>>Would those of you who laud Covenant as an anti-hero, and a tragic
>>character because of all his suffering, still defend him if his
>>name turned out to be Thomasina, and she decided, for no reason at
>>all, to smother a baby because it give her pleasure?
> That's a good and hard question.  First, I want to observe that
> the parallel is not entirely accurate: while "rape is *not* about
> sex," it can be sex in the mind of the man committing it.  There
> is no socially-acceptable act which bears the same relation to
> baby-smothering that sex does to rape.

Good point.  I think the sex/rape analogy might be approximated by
child-rearing/child-abuse.  Say that Thomasina plays abusive
mind-games with an innocent just for fun, or bullied (with physical
abuse) a child.  No sexual overtones, mind you... I mean exclusively
dominance games, bullying, and perhaps physical abuse, to the point
of humiliation but not death.

Or to put it another way, could "Mommy Dearest" be told from the
viewpoint of Joan Crawford and still be palatable?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 13:52:02 GMT
From: arnold@hrc63.co.uk (James Arnold Cleasby)
Subject: Re: TC

ST801179@brownvm.BITNET (Garrett Fitzgerald, Sarek) writes:
>I am in the middle of a digest full of TC put-downs.  As far as I
>can tell, the people who don't like him decided that from the first
>book.

I found the first book quite hard going,but I was hooked from there
on.  The descriptions of the land and the characters are great,and
the way Covenant's character responds to situations is interesting.

>read the full series _still_ dislike him?  By the second series, 10
>years after the first, he is a much more sympathetic character.

By the end of the series you find out he's not such a self-pitying
guy.

>Also, do you all agree that when Convenant said that Foul was the
>externalization of the evil inside us, that that was Donaldson's
>official explanation? I don't really like it.

That explanation seems to be close to the mark,though ...

I would recommend the WHOLE series very highly to anyone.It is well
written and confronts this good/bad scene,man :-)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 20:31:15 GMT
From: rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Donaldson Bashing

Now it's finally reaching silly.  Oh well.

Point of matter, folks: Because you hate a book, does not mean that
the book stinks.  On the reverse, because you like a book also does
not mean it's a good book.

A lot of people are vehemently stating that Donaldson is a worthless
awful author and his books are trash, primarily it seems, because
they despised his works, and maybe even his writing style.  (Yes, I
realize that there are a lot of supporters as well).

What I'm finding interesting, is that a lot of those people who are
bashing Donaldson and his works and who demand you don't read them
went ahead and read them all themselves.  At least he seems to
intrigue those people enough to continue all the way through!

Noting all the discussion and controversy that his works are
generating, perhaps he really is a better author than people
realize?  Whether you like the works or style or not is, after all,
totally a matter of opinion, is it not?  You may hate the
characters, dislike the style, and learn to despise the author, but
if the book (or books) keep you interested, aren't you still gaining
at absolute least some entertainment value from the experience?
Maybe you're gaining something else as well.  On the other hand, if
you really hate something, the logical thing to do is stop.  You
don't normally go ahead and read all six books... :-)

Then again, couldn't this discussion apply to other works as well?
I know of one person who considers Asimov's writing style atrocious
and The Foundation Trilogy one of the worst pieces of glarp in this
millenia.  While the vast majority may not agree with him, he has
his opinion on it.  However, his hatred of the work and his disgust
of Asmiov's style does not make Asimov a poor writer.  'nuf said (I
hope).

Robert J. Granvin
2701 West 43rd Street
Minneapolis, MN  55410
INTERNET:       rjg@sialis.mn.org
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!meccts!sialis!rjg
...uunet!rosevax!ems!sialis!rjg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 04:47:33 GMT
From: esunix!rushfort@rutgers.edu (Kevin Rushforth)
Subject: Mordant's Need (was fantasy recs)

I would recommend the two-part series (duology?) "Mordant's Need" by
Stephen R. Donaldson.  This series begins with "The Mirror Of Her
Dreams" (which is now in paperback), and concludes with "A Man Rides
Through".  Donaldson is superb in his ability to create believable,
three-dimensional characters.  I would especially make this
recommendation to anyone who has considered reading "Lord Foul's
Bane", but would rather be exposed to Donaldson a little less
painfully.  The Thomas Covenant Chronicles were very good (see my
previous article), but they are a lot of work to read (due to some
rather heavy prose and repeated use of words outside the vocabulary
of most college graduates).  By way of contrast, Mordant's Need
retains all of the style, and characterizations of the TC series,
but is markedly easier to read.  Donaldson's writing is definitely
getting better (although the first TC trilogy is still my favorite).

As a side note to all the people who hated Covenant, try "The Mirror
Of Her Dreams".  You may surprise yourself by liking it.  Terisa
Morgan is a *much* more sympathetic character than TC ever was.

Kevin C. Rushforth
Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax,decvax,allegra}!decwrl!esunix!rushfort
      {bellcore,cbosgd,ulysses}!utah-cs!esunix!rushfort

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 04:44:52 GMT
From: esunix!rushfort@rutgers.edu (Kevin Rushforth)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

I have been reading all of the articles on both sides of the Thomas
Covenant debate and I felt it was time to put in my $0.02.  I liked
both Thomas Covenant trilogies.  In fact, the first trilogy is my
all time favorite work of fiction in *any* category (followed very
closely by "The Lord of the Rings").  If I were to use the past
couple of weeks of rec.arts.sf-lovers as a sample, this would put me
in a small minority.  I can understand and appreciate most of the
criticism leveled against the TC Chronicles.  However, I felt that I
had to present the other side of the story so that potential new
readers wouldn't get completely turned off before ever picking up a
copy of "Lord Foul's Bane".

As has been pointed out before (by several people), Thomas Covenant
is a bastard.  Oh sure he has plenty of reasons for being a
depressed and very bitter human being and sure he thinks he is
dreaming, but that does not excuse many of his actions throughout
the trilogy (especially in the first book).  Donaldson actually goes
out of his way to make you mad at Covenant.  Several times during
the trilogy I wanted to take Covenant and shake him and ask him what
in the world was the matter with him.  At most other times, however,
his actions were simply those of a man who was overwhelmed with
despair at his own inadequacy and with the tremendous wonder of the
Land.  His reaction to his situation is one of the aspects of the
book which I enjoy because it is (to borrow a cliche) refreshingly
different.  Covenant's "internal leprosy" provides a nice contrast
with the Land's beauty and health.

This brings me to the main reason I like the TC Chronicles.  I like
Steven R. Donaldson's writing style.  He is one of the best at
weaving a tale in an enchanted land and making you believe you are
there.  This is largely due to his wonderful, three-dimensional
characters like Saltheart Foamfollower, Bannor, Hile Troy, Lord
Mhoram and yes, Thomas Covenant.  I will admit, however, that my
dictionary put in some overtime when I was reading TC.  Fortunately,
he has toned down his prose in the "Mordant's Need" series, without
sacrificing his style.  But then that's another story (one which I
will address in a separate article).

Kevin C. Rushforth
Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax,decvax,allegra}!decwrl!esunix!rushfort
      {bellcore,cbosgd,ulysses}!utah-cs!esunix!rushfort

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 01:52:22 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Donaldson Bashing

rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin) writes:
>What I'm finding interesting, is that a lot of those people who are
>bashing Donaldson and his works and who demand you don't read them
>went ahead and read them all themselves.  At least he seems to
>intrigue those people enough to continue all the way through!

How about wanting to give an author all possible breaks?  I read all
three books only because I continued to hope against hope that
Donaldson would somehow manage to pull off the character, that he
could make Covenant work.  He couldn't.  He didn't even come close.
And THAT'S why I say "Don't read these books", because I did, and I
therefore have taken on Donaldson's sin unto myself (:-), so you
won't have to.

I NEVER fail to finish a book which has received any sort of
acclaim.  I always want to find out, for myself, if the book
deserves the acclaim or not.  It's the only way I can maintain any
credibility when I say that a book is not worthwhile.  Besides, I
HATE it when someone says "But you didn't read it ALL, how can you
know it's so bad clear through?".

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 88  21:01:15 EST
From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Just two more points on Thomas Covenant

First off, to those who say that we aren't supposed to identify with
Covenant: obviously we *are* supposed to identify with Covenant, at
least during the rape scene.  Otherwise, why is that sequence from
Covenant's point of view?  If we are supposed to be repulsed by the
sickness of Covenant's character, why didn't Donaldson write the
first Covenant book from a third person objective or omniscient
point of view?  Why did he write from a third person subjective
viewpoint that usually is used in books where the reader is supposed
to identify with the lead character?  If our sympathy is supposed to
be with those Covenant hurts, why not have the objectionable scene
from their perspectives, not Covenant's?  I agree that Thomas
Covenant is an anti-hero, but it stretches credulity to believe that
the reader is not supposed to identify with the character who is the
viewpoint, the reader's surrogate eyes and ears, for the entire
first book.

Secondly, please stop defending Covenant's rape because it took
place during what he thought was a dream.  This simply makes him an
even sicker character than before; after all, what kind of excuse
for a human being fantasizes about raping children?  What kind of a
man has masturbatory dreams about forcing sex on an unwilling
teenager?

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 02:00:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant (Lisa Evan's po

gethen.UUCP!farren writes:
>desj@brahms.Berkeley.EDU (David desJardins) writes:
>>   Damn it, this is just silly.  OF COURSE Covenant is not a hero.
>>OF COURSE he is evil.  If anyone out there has never read a novel
>>with an antihero as the protagonist, then that person has missed
>>out on some of the great literature of all time.
>[...]
>>To condemn Donaldson for trying to write about real people instead
>>of cardboard cutouts is so hopelessly wrong.
>But that is EXACTLY what I condemn Donaldson for, along with his
>atrocious prose style.  The character of Covenant has no reason to
>be so revolting; no literary purpose is served by his being so, and
>no element of the plot (that I can remember - it's been some time
>since I read the books) depends on Covenant's weakness to succeed.
>If you replaced Covenant with an honest-to-god hero, the story
>would work itself out in much the same way as it did.

Excuse me??  Work out the same way it did?????  A real hero would
have beaten Lord Foul in the first book, because he would have been
able to figure out how to use his power.  And if he hadn't, then the
books WOULD be the cheap, generic fantasy that detractors claim.

As for no literary purpose being served, there was a posting a few
back that pointed out that it did a good job of exploring "the
consequences of one's actions", e.g. the rape and all the harm it
caused in the long run, both to Covenant's psyche, and to the Land.

As for the second set of books, yes, I agree, they were superfluous.
But then again, we could just as well flame Frank Herbert for the
trees killed to capitalize on the Dune name.....

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 10:47 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

desj@brahms.berkeley.edu (David desJardins) writes :
>Bevan@umass.BITNET (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston) writes:
>>That any author, for any reason, could have the protagonist of a
>>book, the person we're supposed to identify with [...]
>>gratuitously rape a child disgusts me.
>>
>>Rape is an evil, brutal, violent act.  Any character in a book who
>>rapes is not a hero [....]
>
>   Damn it, this is just silly.  OF COURSE Covenant is not a hero.
>OF COURSE he is evil.  If anyone out there has never read a novel
>[..]  For the record, you are NOT supposed to identify with Covenant.
>Anyone who can identify with that kind of a man is DANGEROUSLY
>UNBALANCED.  That does not make the novel good OR bad.

Yes and no. An anti-hero can be as evil and disgusting as he wants,
as long as he *tells* the reader something. But the reader *must* be
able to identify with him. (My use of the male pronoun is purely out
of laziness, and a dislike for "s/he"). If you can't identify in
some way or other, you'll get bored.
  I would like to remind of the fact that this is FICTION, not a
true story. Fiction is a lot like dreams : It's a chance to
experience something more than your everyday life. You are not
dangerously unbalanced if you identify with TC; it's quite possible
to identify with a character like that, but never think of doing any
of the things he's doing.

Kai Quale
quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #32
Date: 21 Jan 88 0931-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 88 0931-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:

                    Films - Bladerunner (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 18:09:48 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Sequel to "Bladerunner"

neff@leadsv.UUCP (Michael Neff) writes:
>_Bladerunner_ was one of my favorite SF movies, too!  It's the kind
>of movie that grows on you over time.  I think it was beyond a lot
>of people when it first came out.  It's too bad that some critics
>gave it a bad rap for being too violent and couldn't appreciate
>some quality adult science fiction of substance.

I'm not sure what you mean by "substance".  I suppose if you just
look at it as a futuristic Hard Boiled Dick movie it works well in
the tradition of all those B&W classics.  (Come to think of it, the
whole movie had a monochrome quality, even though it was shot in
color.)  But if you look at it as SF, it's pretty pathetic
production.  The film seems very confused about whether the
Replicants are mechanical or biological creatures.  The vehicles
look grittily futuristic but couldn't possibly fly.  (15 years ago,
vehicles in movie SF looked sleekly futuristic, but couldn't
possibly fly.  Progress?)  Really all the science in this production
is handwaving and buzzword blowing; this is standard stuff for movie
SF that doesn't bother most people but rather irritates old SF
freaks like me.

Another reason I object to the word "substance": Bladerunner is full
of the usual cliches of postStarWars SF movies -- collosal
buildings, dark and messy sets, clumsily retrofited gadgets lying
around all over the place.  This seems to really impress people, but
to me it doesn't indicate any sort of creativity, it just means they
had a lot of money to hire modelmakers and set builders.

>Question: Does anyone know if Ridley Scott plans to make a sequel?
>......... something in me wants more of this world they created.

If the retrofitted world is all you want, then the sequel's already
been done.  It's called "Max Headroom".

My favorite piece of trivia about this movie: The one scene I really
like is where the Boss Replicant spares the Bladerunner's life and
gives a little speech about why he mourns his own passing, and then
quietly dies.  According to Rutger Hauer (interview on NPR I heard a
couple years after the movie came out), the script called for this
really dumb, lengthy speech in this scene, which Hauer just refused
to do.  So he improvised his own speech: that memorable line about
"tears in the rain" is Hauer's invention.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 08:13:39 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Sequel to "Bladerunner"

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>I'm not sure what you mean by "substance".  I suppose if you just
>look at it as a futuristic Hard Boiled Dick movie it works well in
>the traditiion of all those B&W classics.  (Come to think of it,
>the whole movie had a monochrome quality, even though it was shot
>in color.)  But if you look at it as SF, it's pretty pathetic
>production.  The film seems very confused about whether the
>Replicants are mechanical or biological creatures.  The vehicles
>look grittily futuristic but couldn't possibly fly.  (15 years ago,
>vehicles in movie SF looked sleekly futuristic, but couldn't
>possibly fly.  Progress?)  Really all the science in this
>production is handwaving and buzzword blowing; this is standard
>stuff for movie SF that doesn't bother most people but rather
>irritates old SF freaks like me.

The reason I included these lines is I want you to re-read what you
wrote!

Can you actually BELIEVE that?

Are you still living in the 50's?  Are "THEM" or "The THING" your
favorite movies?

Life goes on, man, and Blade Runner, in my opinion, (which you
ASSUME to be wrong, even before you hear it) is one of the best SF
productions in ANY decade.

The machines were functional. They LOOKED functional. The future
created in the movie was totally believable.

I read the book first, so it may have informed me more than you that
the replicants were genetically identical to humans. But if they
were just machines, why did they build into them the four year
lifespan as a safequard against developing their own emotions? Why
were elaborate personality tests necessary when a simple X-ray could
have told them if they had gears, etc?

Anyway, the book, "Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep" is not
identical to the movie by any means, but the movie, I think, does a
fantastic job of informing the viewer just what is going on, and
what Replicants are. They bleed, the feel, they die. Just like us.
And just like us, they don't know how long they have to live.

I'm sorry that our opinions differ, but you sound so much like a
person that can never be satisfied with perfection.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 06:24:05 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Sequel to "Bladerunner"

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>neff@leadsv.UUCP (Michael Neff) writes:
>>_Bladerunner_ was one of my favorite SF movies, too!  It's the
>>kind of movie
>But if you look at it as SF, it's pretty pathetic production.
>[ interesting and lucid points about how _Blade Runner_ could have
>been better as SF deleted ] [ until . . . ]
>The vehicles look grittily futuristic but couldn't possibly fly.

Yeah, kind of like that show, "Star Trek".  Ha!!  Who'd ever watch a
show that implied faster-than-light space travel?  We all know that
the Enterprise couldn't _possibly_ have a working "warp drive".

>Progress?

Indeed.  How about anti-gravity generators?  With supplemental jets
for fast vertical takeoff?

Seriously though, Isaac, I agree with you that the movie had its
weaknesses.  (One of my peeves was that, even in the grungy, dirty,
poor world portrayed, NONE of the fluorescent fixtures in the shop
windows was flickering or burned out, and NONE of the elements in
that damned giant COKE sign was burned out.  Seemed a bit
incongruous.)

However, I still think that overall it was _quite_ good, especially
if you take _SF_ to mean "speculative fiction" and not just "science
fiction".  And I'll watch it again whenever the opportunity arises.

Later days . . .

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 08:33:35 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes:
>> The article mentions several other endings that were in the
>> script at various points, including one where it is implied that
>> Deckard is also a replicant.  That would have been an interesting
>> one.
>This is interesting.  I have had the opinion that they tried to
>imply this in the movie, but verrrrry subtly.  In watching the
>movie, it appears that the replicants' eyes get a gold glow in them
>when they have strong emotions (more like a gold dot in the center
>of each eye).  Before I had read the book, I suspected that this
>was the sort of thing that the Voight-Kamf (sp?) test looked for (I
>suspect the glow was there for the audience's sake).  With me so
>far?  There's a scene in the middle of the movie at Deckard's
>apartment where Rachel says something like "How do you know your
>human memories are yours?", and we see Deckard in the back of the
>scene, appearing out of focus, HOWEVER, you can see the gold glow
>in his eyes...
>
>Now, this may have been a trick in lighting, but I doubt that it
>would have happened so often if it were.

That glow was seen in almost every character's eyes. I thought it
was eerie, but not an indication of whether a person was or was not
a replicant. This phenomenon happens sometimes when there is a lot
of backlighting. I am not sure just how it happens, but I am pretty
sure the effect wasn't added after filming.

True, if Deckard had turned out to be a replicant, that would have
been truly interesting.

They did allude to it subtly, not only by Rachel asking "How do you
know if your memories are real?" but of his contemplation of that
very question.

There are a few scenes in which he analyses the photos belonging to
Leon, and Rachel, but also thinks about his own photos. Could he
have been wondering if those photos were real, and not someone
else's memories?

I believe that for a while, he may have been uncertain too. Who is
to say that Rachel's implanted memories weren't as real to her as
Deckard's 'real' ones were to him?

If memories are implanted, they are still memories, and you don't
doubt them.  Faced with this evidence, and Rachel's total belief in
her (Tyrell's niece's) memories, his own memories HAD to come to
doubt.

About the Voigt-Compf test (also sp?), no, the glow, or what caused
it, was not what the test determined. The test is much like our
current-day polygraphs. It test voluntary eye movements, voluntary
pupil dilation, involuntary eye movements, involuntary dilations,
and other symptoms associated with blushing.

It takes a trained, intuitive person (Blade Runners) to determine
from the data whether or not the subject is a replicant or human.
Rachel was a special case.  She was more intricately designed.
Therefore it took Deckard almost five times more questions to make
an accurate assessment.

It isn't anything obvious like characteristics that could have
caused such inner catlike glow in the eye.

Rachel even asks Deckard if he has ever retired a human because of
incorrect interpretations of the test. He says no. She also asks him
later, if he has ever taken the test himself, further implying that
he may also be a replicant.

Even at the film's conclusion, we are never sure whether or not he
is a replicant, but we know he is very human.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 23:57:15 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugfailau@rutgers.edu (Fai Lau)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>About the Voigt-Compf test (also sp?), no, the glow, or what caused
>it, was not what the test determined. The test is much like our
>current-day polygraphs. It test voluntary eye movements, voluntary
>pupil dilation, involuntary eye movements, involuntary dilations,
>and other symptoms associated with blushing.
>
>It takes a trained, intuitive person (Blade Runners) to determine
>from the data whether or not the subject is a replicant or human.
>Rachel was a special case.  She was more intricately designed.
>Therefore it took Deckard almost five times more questions to make
>an accurate assessment.

   Yes, the observation of eye movements, involuntary dilations,
etc.. is part of the test. It is used to evaluate the subject's
reaction to the tester's questions. What the test really does is to
identify how much of a true life experience the subject has.
Replicants are identical to human, except that they take far less
time to "grow". So one of the very few things that they're different
from human is the lack of experience of being human.

Fai  Lau
SUNY at Buffalo
UU: ..{rutgers,ames}!sunybcs!ugfailau
BI: ugfailau@sunybcs
INT: ugfailau@joey.cs.buffalo.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 21:03:26 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>>appears that the replicants' eyes get a gold glow in them when
>>they have strong emotions (more like a gold dot in the center of
>>each eye).
>That glow was seen in almost every character's eyes. I thought it
>was eerie, but not an indication of whether a person was or was not
>a replicant. This phenomenon happens sometimes when there is a lot
>of backlighting. I am not sure just how it happens, but I am pretty
>sure the effect wasn't added after filming.

I still believe it was intentionally indicative of replicancy.  I
bought the tape of the movie, and have watched it several times.
Not once do you see the effect in Tyrell's eyes, nor in Sebastian's
eyes, nor in any of the other 'definite' human characters.  If it
were there by accident, don't you think they'd have re-shot it?  I
believe that the effect was there to begin with, however, it doesn't
matter when the effect was added, it matters when and why the effect
is used.

Watch the movie again, and look for the glow.  I think you'll change
your mind.

>About the Voigt-Compf test (also sp?), no, the glow, or what caused
>it, was not what the test determined. The test is much like our
>current-day polygraphs. It test voluntary eye movements, voluntary
>pupil dilation, involuntary eye movements, involuntary dilations,
>and other symptoms associated with blushing.

You're right, but you misunderstood me.  Step outside the plot for a
second.  How could a filmmaker show the "replicant positive" result
to an audience?  Why not a glow effect?  It's very easy to spot.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 18:13:26 GMT
From: m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Similarities between Blade Runner & Outer Limits

I don't believe anyone has ever mentioned the similarities of the
movie, "Blade Runner", with an Outer Limits episode entitled, "The
Replicant".

The plot of the TV episode was that a dangerous and illegal creature
escapes a wealthy Earthman's menagerie.  The creature is intelligent
and normally kills anything it can unless it's ready to lay eggs.
The Earthman, Henderson James, decides to have an illegal replicant
of himself made to track down the creature.  Since replicants will
develop emotionally in time, a lifespan of only a few hours is built
into him.

The replicants in "Blade Runner" and "The Replicant" are
astonishingly similar.  Does anyone (like jayembee) know if Outer
Limits credited Philip Dick for that episode?

Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
{cbosgd, gatech, ihnp4, linus, mirror, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 06:43:32 GMT
From: sarge@scheme.berkeley.edu (Steven Sargent)
Subject: Re: Similarities between Blade Runner & Outer Limits

Philip Dick's book "Do androids dream of electric sheep?" has a 1968
copyright, so I doubt that he had much influence on the Outer Limits
episode (the show went off the air in '64).  Moreover, reading back
from "Blade runner" to "Androids" is hazardous: Dick didn't use the
word "replicant" (preferring "android"), and he didn't have an
artificially truncated lifespan for the andies.  It sounds like the
makers of "Blade runner" should have credited the Outer Limits
folks, rather than Dick -- the movie makers made a hash of his book
anyway, truncating the moral/ethical concerns and removing the
disorienting plot, but neglecting to replace it with one of their
own.

Suddenly am enveloped in paranoid fantasy -- DEG and Run Run Shaw
Ltd. in association with The Blade Runner II Partnership present a
Ridley Scott film -- Ridley Scott's "Blade Runner II" -- from "The
Man in the High Castle," a novel by Philip K. Dick.  In an
alternative present, the Nazis and the Japanese have won World War
II.  A Wyoming author, %s Abendsen (played by Edward James Olmos)
writes a book about an alternative present in which the Allies had
won the war.  Enraged, Nazi High Command (John Belushi, in a
posthumous appearance) orders the assassination of Abendsen.  The SS
dispatch a Replicant (Arnold Schwarzenegger) to do the deed.  Along
the way, Arnold encounters a beautiful woman (Sigourney Weaver) with
a horrifying secret (Jeff Goldblum).  Many car chases, shotgun
blasts, and tedious speeches later, the credits roll.  Music by Jon
and Vangelis.  Also starring Pat Morita, Corbin Bernsen, and M.
Emmett Walsh.  Written, produced, and directed by Ridley Scott.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #33
Date: 21 Jan 88 0943-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 88 0943-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #33
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:

              Books - Brin (8 msgs) & Tolkien (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 88 07:21:10 GMT
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Isaiah Kamens)
Subject: Re: Re: Brin

Brin also wrote a book of short stories, many of which were
previously published in various SF journals.  I just finished the
book last week, but [of course] I still cannot remember its title.
However, since I think he has only put out one book of short
stories, if you find it, that'll be the one.

One thing I noticed when reading the stories is that he tends to do
one thing regularly both in his novels and his stories.... he leaves
things hanging at the end of the book/story, but not in the same way
that most other authors do.  Instead, he solves the most urgent
conflicts and leaves us wondering about the others in a way which
will keep us curious but not leave us burning up inside waiting for
the sequel.

Check out the stories I mentioned, for example.... almost all of
them end on a "continuing thought," although it is obvious that
there isn't going to be a "sequel."  I think that Brin has mastered
this technique better than any other author I've read.

BTW, I was STILL a little pissed off at the end of Startide Rising
(SPOILER FOLLOWS FOR Startide Rising AND Uplift War), when he didn't
tell us where the ship was off to, and then in Uplift War, where he
just left it hanging in the air for the whole book.  Now we KNOW
that he's going to have to do a sequel to tell us what happens.

Jonathan I. Kamens
jik@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 88 17:09:19 GMT
From: norma@hpcllak.hp.com (Norma Pincus)
Subject: Re: Re: Brin

>Brin's probably coming to our school's SF/F club sometime in the
>next few months--I haven't read much by him--where should I start?

Start with Startide Rising, which will introduce you to his Uplift
Universe (consisting, so far, of Sundiver, Startide Rising, and The
Uplift War, in that order.  The middle one is, in my opinion, the
best, both to read and in the amount of background information it
gives.  Even though Sundiver takes place before Startide, you can
read them out of order without losing much if anything.)  Go next to
The Postman for what I consider to be the best post-holocaust novel
ever written.  And, for just plain fun, there's The Practice Effect.

Heart of the Comet, a collaboration with Gregory Benford, is, in
this Brin fan's humble opinion, not up to the standards of his solo
work.

James Preston

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 07:37:36 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Brin

norma@hpcllak.HP.COM (Norma Pincus) writes:
>Go next to The Postman for what I consider to be the best
>post-holocaust novel ever written.

   The *best*?  Here are several reasons why I don't think "The
Postman" deserves such an endorsement:

   1.  Brin's prose style is rather clunky.  His attempts at poetry
fall flat on their faces.  He's obviously striving for a rolling,
rhythmic, virile prose, but he can't make it work.  Granted, he's a
fine storyteller--but don't confuse the two.  He's still a long way
off from the likes of Bradbury or Sturgeon.

   2.  While the first two parts of "The Postman" are rather
poignant stories, the last part of the book seems like little more
than a pulp-style battle story.  The beauty of the characters and
images (such as the scientists playing Wizard of Oz with a broken
computer, or the protagonist delivering people's mail) found in the
first part of the book is lost in the macho derring-do of the latter
part of the book.  This left me, for one, with a bad taste in my
mouth--the comic-book-like battle between the two enhanced warriors
at the end of the book just doesn't seem to belong with the earlier
parts of the book.

   3.  Brin is up against some heavy competition in the
post-holocaust world department.  Do you really think that "The
Postman" is better than:

   Edgar Pangborn--Davy
   Walter Miller, Jr.--A Canticle for Leibowitz
   George Stewart--Earth Abides
   Samuel Delany--Dhalgren
   Kim Stanley Robinson, Jr.--The Wild Shore (a more recent example
of the genre; compare Robinson's depressing, yet *human* battle
scene at the end of the book with Brin's--much more believable and
in tone with the rest of the novel).

   I'm sure there are plenty more better than "The Postman."  I'm
not saying "The Postman" is a bad book--it's got a sympathetic
protagonist, and a damned fine plot for the first two-thirds of the
book.  I'd say it's good milk--but there's a bit of cream rising
above it. . .

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 03:06:02 GMT
From: stech!sysop@rutgers.edu (Jan Harrington)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever heard of this book?

MCREAGHE@hmcvax.BITNET says:
> I remember a book which had dolphins and chimpanzees raised to
> "human-level" intelligence.  The process was called 'uplift' and
> the race that performed uplift was able to demand 10,000 years of
> service from the client race.

The book of which you are thinking is Startide Rising, by David
Brin.  It also has a sequel - The Uplift War.  Both are among the
finest sf novels to appear in the last few years, despite the fact
that Brin leaves many questions unanswered.

I also find the morality of uplift questionnable, and the books do
indeed make me think a lot about how we humans deal with the other
living creatures on our planet.  I guess it's the mark of really
fine literature if it makes you talk about philosophical issues
rather than plot (especially since my sister and I carried on such a
conversation for over an hour on a cross- country phone call ...)

Jan Harrington
Scholastech Telecommunications
ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop
allegra!stech!sysop

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 05:35:15 GMT
From: mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (<mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu>)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever heard of this book?

>I remember a book which had dolphins and chimpanzees raised to
>"human-level" intelligence.  The process was called 'uplift' and
>the race that performed uplift was able to demand 10,000 years of
>service from the client race.

   The book is _Startide Rising_, by David Brin. And, as a minor
nitpick, the Patron race is entitled to 100,000 years of service
from the client, as a payment for uplift.

>This was a pretty good book.  It seemed like it might have been the
>first book in a series.  Anyone have any information on this?

   There is also one more, called _The Uplift War_, which I believe
takes place in the same universe. It may be a sequel, but I'm not
sure since I haven't read it yet. ( Hey, I just finished Startide 2
days ago!)

Mark C. Carroll
ARPA  :CARROLL@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU
Usenet:mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 02:33:18 GMT
From: polyslo!jtolman@rutgers.edu (Jeff A Tolman)
Subject: Re: The Postman

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP (Chris Hertzog) writes:
>norma@hpcllak.HP.COM (Norma Pincus) writes:
>>Go next to The Postman for what I consider to be the best
>>post-holocaust novel ever written.
>
>   The *best*?  Here are several reasons why I don't think "The
>Postman" deserves such an endorsement:
>
>Do you really think that "The Postman" is better than:
>
>   Edgar Pangborn--Davy
>   Walter Miller, Jr.--A Canticle for Leibowitz
>   George Stewart--Earth Abides
>   Samuel Delany--Dhalgren
>   Kim Stanley Robinson, Jr.--The Wild Shore
>I'd say it's good milk--but there's a bit of cream rising above it.
>. .

Added to the post-holocaust greats:

   Pat Frank -- Alas, Babylon

As for Brin's ability as a writer...well, he keeps me interested.
So far his series is highly entertaining.  His short story _Crystal
Spheres_ deserved its award, and the rest of the book - River of
Time - was well worth the money spent. The Postman - well, for a
first try (if it was his first try ...  at least his first published
try) it was pretty good.  I'm gonna reserve judgement until he's
written another.

Also, can you tell me if _Endgame Enigma_ (J. P. Hogan) is worth
reading?

jtolman@polyslo.calpoly.edu
...{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!jtolman

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 23:04:21 GMT
From: norma@hpcllak.hp.com (Norma Pincus)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever heard of this book?

>> I remember a book which had dolphins and chimpanzees raised to
>> "human-level" intelligence.  The process was called 'uplift' and
>> the race that performed uplift was able to demand 10,000 years of
>> service from the client race.
>The book of which you are thinking is Startide Rising, by David
>Brin.  It also has a sequel - The Uplift War.  Both are among the
>finest sf novels to appear in the last few years, despite the fact
>that Brin leaves many questions unanswered.

As one of the top ten Brin fans in the world, I feel the need to add
my two tenths of a cent (unnecessary as it undoubtedly is): _The
Uplift War_ is a sequel in the sense that it takes place immediately
after the events in _Startide_; it is also not a sequel, since it
concerns completely different characters than those in _Startide_,
and barely mentions the events from it.  Also, for completists,
don't forget _Sundiver_, written before and taking place before
_Startide_, for some additional background on uplift, humans' place
in the scheme of things, etc.  Not as exciting as the other two, but
worth the read.  (Also, in my opinion, it is not necessary to read
_Sundiver_ before the other two.  Although I do think _Startide_
should be read before _Uplift_.)

James Preston

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 23:52:21 GMT
From: dasys1!cheeser@rutgers.edu (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever heard of this book?

mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (<MC>) writes:
>>I remember a book which had dolphins and chimpanzees raised to
>>"human-level" intelligence.  The process was called 'uplift' and
>>the race that performed uplift was able to demand 10,000 years of
>>service from the client race.
>   The book is _Startide Rising_, by David Brin. And, as a minor
>nitpick, the Patron race is entitled to 100,000 years of service
>from the client, as a payment for uplift.
>
>>This was a pretty good book.  It seemed like it might have been
>the first ]book in a series.  Anyone have any information on this?
>
>   There is also one more, called _The Uplift War_, which I
>believe takes place in the same universe. It may be a sequel, but
>I'm not sure since I haven't read it yet. ( Hey, I just finished
>Startide 2 days ago!)

This was the second or third such reply, so I had to speak up.
There are TWO other books by Brin in this series, one comes before
"Star Tide Rising" called "SunDiver" and the one mentioned above,
which comes after, called "The Uplift War".

Acording to Brin, he plans about 5 or 6 books in this series, so
there is more to come.  If somethings from STR are not explained in
TUW, expect to see more on it later.

Best,

Jonathan Bing
ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 01/13/88 23:29:04 EST
From: #GGGALA%WMMVS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Tolkien

derek@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Derek J. LeLash) writes:
>While we're on the subject of the History of Middle-Earth, I would
>like to know if there are some hard-core fans who have read and
>assimilated the whole series who would like to share their
>impressions. I am trying to put together an independent reading
>course for next term here at Dartmouth based on these books, and
>would like to know what other devotees have gotten out of them.

Derek,
    Concerning the Tolkien series, I was wondering what you had in
mind when you said that you wanted some impressions about the books.
Did you want to start some sort of study group analyzing Tolkien's
books?  What exactly did you have in mind?
    I have read the Tolkien series several times.  I have also done
some in-depth studying of the other books, such as _The Book of Lost
Tales, Part I_, _The Red Book, _The Similarion_(spelling?), and one
other (the name escapes now).  I found the books to be very
well-planned.  Each character had different traits that couldn't be
confused with any other characters in the books.  It is obvious that
Tolkien took years to plan his series out.  He probably did that
before he ever got started writing the books.  Over-all, I have to
say that everything he wrote *one* of his books corresponds with all
the details in any of his other books.  Very well done.

#GGGALA@WMMVS

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 20:57:48 GMT
From: microsoft!mikewa@rutgers.edu (Mike Walma)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

#GGGALA@wmmvs.BITNET writes:
>    I have read the Tolkien series several times.  I have also done
>some in-depth studying of the other books, such as _The Book of
>Lost Tales, Part I_, _The Red Book, _The Similarion_(spelling?),
>and one other (the name escapes now).  I found the books to be very
>well-planned.  Each character had different traits that couldn't be
>confused with any other characters in the books.  It is obvious
>that Tolkien took years to plan his series out.  He probably did
>that before he ever got started writing the books.  Over-all, I
>have to say that everything he wrote *one* of his books corresponds
>with all the details in any of his other books.  Very well done.

Actually, even Tolkien wasnt perfect.  There were a number of
inconsistencies when you consider the history as a whole, but they
are all mostly minor.  A lot of them deal with Galadriel, for
example when she entered Eriador from Beleriand, what the exact
linage of Celeborn was, etcetra.

Most of these inconsistencies came about because Tolkien died before
finishing The Silmarillion to his satisfaction.  Since Tolkien was
such a perfectionist, is debatable whether he would ever have been
satisfied.  When his son, Christopher Tolkien, prepared JRR's work
for posthumous publication, he was faced with the choices of either
taking liberties with the text, in order to eliminate
inconsistencies, or leave the text, and document the inconsistencies
as they arose.  This was a difficult task, as his father had left
the history in a rather disjointed form, ie several treatments of
each story, differing in the "facts", the detail of the narrative,
and the form of the narrative.  Christopher choice to edit rather
heavily in order to present The Silmarillion as a complete work, and
do little or no editing in the later published material.  The
Silmarillion was for people who wanted to read more of JRRT's work,
the later material was for the more hard core Tolkien reader.

Christopher reveals much of the history of the history in the works
he edited, ie The Silmarillion and everything since.  More insight
can also be gained from JRRT's collected letters, edited by Humphrey
Carpenter (I think that's the name...)

Mike Walma

------------------------------

Date: 01/15/88 18:34:16 EST
From: #GGGALA%WMMVS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Tolkien books

derek@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
You wrote:
>Possibly tBoLT Part II?  Or THE LAYS OF BELERIAND?  Or THE SHAPING
>OF MIDDLE-EARTH?  Or THE LOST ROAD?  Or (most likely, as I get the
>impression you mostly read paperbacks) UNFINISHED TALES?
>
>And what, pray tell, is _The Red Book_?  The only "red book" *I*
>know of is the "Red Book of Westmarch," the fictional text (a copy
>of Bilbo's and Frodo's journals, with additional notes by Master
>Samwise) upon which THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE
>ADVENTURES OF TOM BOMBADIL are supposedly based.  Do you know of
>something I don't?  Or are you just referring to the collosal
>red-bound edition of tLotR?  Or the (red-jacketed) second volume of
>tBoLT?

    To be totally honest with you, I wasn't sure about the name of
the books that I had read.  The one book that I couldn't name was
the _Unfinished Tales_.  The _Red Book_ seems to be a book that I
have read containing information of the Tolkien series.  Now that I
think about it, I am not sure that the name of the book was the _Red
Book_.  It could have been something else.  It might have been one
of the Book of Lost Tales.  I'm really not sure right now.  I shall
have to go check on that.
    I hadn't heard anything about any books named tBoLT of tLotR
before.  What are they?  Were they written by Christopher Tolkien?

#GGGALA@WMMVS

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #34
Date: 21 Jan 88 0958-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 88 0958-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:

               Books - Crowley & Sheffield (4 msgs) &
                       Post-Holocaust Stories (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 18:35:41 GMT
From: eric@cfi.com (eric)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

Has anybody mentioned John Crowley?  I just finished _Little, Big_
and it was ->wonderful<-.

...rutgers!!husc6!necntc!ima!cfisun!eric

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jan 88 16:44:17 GMT
From: hwee!sutherla@RUTGERS.EDU (I. Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Charles Sheffield

andyc@mtuxo.UUCP (XMRH3-A.CASTINEIRAS) writes:
>I just read a posting of Nebula Award nominations.
>
>One was for a story by Charles Sheffield.  I recently read a book
>that I think he wrote which I believe was titled "Into the Night"
>or something like that!

   I recently read a novel by the same author called "Between the
Strokes of Night", possibly the book referred to. I enjoyed the book
a lot, it was definitely the best SF novel I've read for a while.
   Without ( I hope ) giving too much away the plot deals with
humans whose metabolism is slowed down so much that what seems like
14 years to them is closeto 30,000 years to anyone living at normal
speed.
   It's certainly worth a read.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 13:43:26 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Charles Sheffield

sutherla@hwee (I. Sutherland) writes:
>   I recently read a novel by the same author called "Between the
>Strokes of Night", possibly the book referred to. I enjoyed the
>book a lot, it was definitely the best SF novel I've read for a
>while.

WARNING: spoilers follow about BtSoN and "Nimrod Hunt"

>   Without ( I hope ) giving too much away the plot deals with
>humans whose metabolism is slowed down so much that what seems like
>14 years to them is closeto 30,000 years to anyone living at normal
>speed.

He does produce some interesting ideas, but he does have an
irritating habit of ignoring or changing physical laws and bits of
the developed plot, if it continues the story.

For example: in BtSoN, Peron follows Captain Rinker into the room
containing the N-space S-space transition machines.

They are both in S-space at this point.

Rinker climbs into one of the boxes, and changes to the much faster
N-space. The captain then climbs out of the box, not noticing Peron
who is bent over the box watching what is going on. (Peron is
restricted in the places he is allowed to go on the ship. Where he
is isn't one of them)

The Captain later returns to the box, again ignoring Rinker, shifts
to slow S-space.

Example 2: Although time is slowed down in S-space, the energy the
human eye is sensitive to won't change.

In S-space, you would be blinded by the apparent amount of light in
what would be a normally lit room in N-space.

You would not suddenly be able to "see" in the microwave region of
the spectrum.

But this would have stopped the later useful properties seeing in
microwaves have.

Example 3: In "Nimrod Hunt" Sheffield goes to great length to point
out the extreme precautions being taken to prevent any contamination
from Travancore being brought into the interstellar Q-ship.

Despite this, when it is time for Nimrod to appear, He/She/it/they
quietly walk(?) through the door.

There are plenty other examples of this kind of thing in his work.
If he would stop doing this, he could become one of the more
interesting writers, in terms of ideas at least.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 04:40:27 GMT
From: well!pokey@rutgers.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Charles Sheffield

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) wrote:
>He does produce some interesting ideas, but he does have an
>irritating habit of ignoring or changing physical laws and bits of
>the developed plot, if it continues the story.

That turns out not to be the case.  Your examples make it quite
clear that the problem is not any deficiencies in Sheffield's
writing, but your own lack of understanding.  If you had been paying
attention, you would have found out that the N and S areas of the
ship are totally separated, and so when Rinker left the transition
casket in N space, he was NOT IN THE SAME ROOM as Peron.  How this
is accomplished is never explained, but given the use of robots for
every other menial activity, it seems obvious.

The lighting difference between the N and S areas is also made
explicit, for the benefit of slow readers, on page 209: "Peron
crouched down and looked through.  An icy current of air met him
from the other side.  The temperature there must be very close to
freezing.  The little robot had gone on its way, and the area beyond
was lit only by the dullest of red glimmers of light."

>There are plenty other examples of this kind of thing in his work.
>If he would stop doing this, he could become one of the more
>interesting writers, in terms of ideas at least.

I haven't read the Nimrod whatsis, so I can't comment on any
supposed flaws there.  But if you can point out flaws in any of his
other stories, I would certainly like to hear about them.  This
shouldn't be any problem for you, if there are in fact "plenty other
examples".

Jef Poskanzer
jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa
...well!pokey

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 10:58:39 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Charles Sheffield

pokey@well.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes:
>bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) wrote:
>>He does produce some interesting ideas, but he does have an
>>irritating habit of ignoring or changing physical laws and bits of
>>the developed plot, if it continues the story.
>That turns out not to be the case.  Your examples (appended) make
>it quite clear that the problem is not any deficiencies in
>Sheffield's writing, but your own lack of understanding.  If you
>had been paying attention, you would have found out that the N and
>S areas of the ship are totally separated, and so when Rinker left
>the transition casket in N space, he was NOT IN THE SAME ROOM as
>Peron.

I suggest you go back and re-read chapters 18 20 and 22 again.

Sheffield makes it quite clear that there is only one room
containing the "Coffin-like" cabinets with transparent lids used to
switch between N and S space, and also to store people in Cold
sleep. This same room is seen in S-space and N-space by peron.

Just in case you havn't grasped this he then goes on to describe the
transition from both points of view, and in case you still have not
worked out what is happening, he gives then gives a lengthy account
at the beginning of chapter 22 of Peron and friends in N-space
watching Olivia Ferranti transition from N-space to S-space. She
climbs into the cabinet, a yellow fog fills the cabinet, and
eventually, her eyes start to open VERY slowly as she wakes up in
S-space.

This is the same point of view the captain would have had of Peron
earlier. But the captain, conveniently didn't notice Peron.

This was the criticism I was making of the story.

Also, the red glow you quoted is seen inside a service duct.
Service ducts are not normally considered to be part of the living
quarters and very rarely have lighting systems installed.

As I said before Sheffield's ideas are worth reading about, I have
read most of his books, but he does have this irritating habit of
ignoring inconvenient bits of established plot.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 21:46:46 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fantasy

> While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
> know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am
> especially interested in works where most or all of the population
> of the Earth has been destroyed, but mostly I'm just asking for
> general information.

That's a hard one.  I was thinking of Jack Vance, and
_The_Dying_Earth_, but I don't think there was a near-our-future
holocaust, or even any sharp holocaust at all.  Most post-holocaust
stories are future histories, and don't tend to include much in the
way of fantasy elements.  So, I'm left with _Magus_Rex_, by Jack
Lovejoy.  There is a holocaust in our near-future, and then a slow
recovery.  The far future is the time of Wizards, who's magic is
powered by a sort of inverse mana (you know, the oposite of what
Niven hypothesized... we can't do magic because it was exhausted...
Lovejoy says we can't do magic because it hasn't yet built up enough
potential to be useful).  The story is mostly interesting but
seriously flawed.  I liked Lovejoy's _The_Hunters_ better.

But you know, other than _Empire_of_the_East_ and that one Lovejoy
novel, I can't think of anything else at all that closely fits this
category.  Various vaguely remembered "mutant powers" stories fit
only loosly because of the "SFish" background and the
pseudo-evolutionary theory used to justify the "mutant powers".
EotE is certainly by far the best I can remember.  Could this be
fallow ground that not many have tilled for ideas?  Or is it just
barren ground that only the few can find anything at all of interest
to write about?  Interesting...  Does _The_Lathe_of_Heaven_ qualify?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 17:01:20 GMT
From: alan@argon.csl.sri.com (Alan Whitehurst)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fantasy

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>> While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
>> know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am
>> especially interested in works where most or all of the
>> population of the Earth has been destroyed, but mostly I'm just
>> asking for general information.
>That's a hard one.  I was thinking of Jack Vance, and
>_The_Dying_Earth_, but I don't think there was a near-our-future
>holocaust, or even any sharp holocaust at all.  Most post-holocaust
>stories are future histories, and don't tend to include much in the
>way of fantasy elements.

I had a book recommended to me a few years back, the title of which
was _Ariel_ (sorry, don't remember the author's name off hand).  The
premise of the story was that the natural laws of our world
(universe?) suddenly change such that technology no longer works and
magic is the dominant force.  This precipitates a holocaust which
drastically reduces the population of the earth.  The story follows
the quest of a young boy who witnesses the "change". He is
befriended by Ariel, a unicorn.  The book is not a typical fantasy,
nor is Ariel a "typical" unicorn (she has quite a biting wit, as I
recall).

The book was fun.

Alan Whitehurst
Computer Science Lab
SRI International

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 20:35:00 GMT
From: prism!peter@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fan

As far as an interesting post_holocaust novel, you should try
RIDDLEY WALKER. It is one of the more innovative books of that
genre.

Peter Stucki
mirror!peter@mit_eddie
Mirror Systems  Cambridge, MA

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 20:25:39 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fantasy

Wayne A. Throop writes about how few books there are in the post
holocaust fantasy sub-sub-sub-genre.  I thought that perhaps _Road
to Corley_ by Richard Cowper and its sequels might qualify.
However, the magic in them is too much like born-again Christian
mythology for my tastes.

>Does _The_Lathe_of_Heaven_ qualify?

I put that book in a category all by itself.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jan 88 20:51:14 GMT
From: martin@yale-zoo-suned..arpa (Charles Martin)
Subject: Post-Holocaust Fantasy Recommendations

kjm@dg-rtp.UUCP writes:
>While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
>know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am
>especially interested in works where most or all of the population
>of the Earth has been destroyed,...

Brian Aldiss' /The Long Afternoon of Earth/ is a rich fantasy novel
set in the post-holocaust world.  Aldiss' novel is rewarding for its
mythic themes and the vision of a post-holocaust world which has
reverted to a truly primitive state.  This is not "High Fantasy" in
the sense of Tolkien.  There is no "magic," no wizards, warriors, or
whatever.  It is more an exploration of the "fantastic"
interpretation of the primitive; happily, Aldiss spares us the
knowledge of how the world came to be in this state, and simply
renders to us the point of view of his traveller in this fantastic
world.  [****+]

This is probably not the kind of book you were looking for, so I
have two other recommendations which are probably closer to the
mark.  Both are by Samuel Delany.  /The Jewels of Aptor/ is very
much a "Swords and Sorcery" style novel, except for its setting in
the post-holocaust world.  I found it entertaining.  [***] /The
Einstein Intersection/ is hard to describe but it is excellent.
This is a must-read novel set in a post-holocaust world where
certain archetypal forces appear to have achieved embodiment.  The
motivations of the characters are complex and have real impact in
shaping their reactions to events.  I have heard a putative
interpretation of Delany's for this work, but I would not think of
letting it get in the way of your enjoyment of this classic.
[*****]

Charles Martin
ARPA: martin@cs.yale.edu
UUCP: {ihnp4!hsi,decvax,cmcl2}!yale!martin

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 19:59:48 GMT
From: cisunx!jgsst3@rutgers.edu (John G. Schmid)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fan

It's a kind of a different post-holocaust book but I loved it. It
being a first novel impressed me even more with the author.

David R. Palmer    "Emergence"

It's about an adolescent girl named Candy Smith Foster who has just
had the world annihilate itself.  Not with nukes (although some were
used) but most of the damage was done by germ warfare.

How she survived and what she does afterwards is the bulk of the
book.

I highly recommend it.

John Schmid

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 02:49:55 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fan

This is a collection of seven books in the Heart River stories (I
guess they're called the Pelbar Cycle now) by Paul O. Williams, an
English professor at Principia College in Illinois.  They are:

   The Breaking of Northwall
   The Ends of the Circle
   The Dome in the Forest
   The Fall of the Shell
   An Ambush of Shadows
   The Song of the Axe
   The Sword of Forebearance

I'm pretty sure that the series is finished, he quite noticeably was
tying up all loose ends at the last...  but I thoroughly enjoyed
them, and the characters he developed.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 02:29:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust Fantasy

Perhaps I just missed something, but I haven't seen the novel
_Emergence_ on any of these Post-Holocaust recommended lists.  It is
an excellent book, and unique in my experience...it is told first
person by the 12-year old heroine, yet it is a very adult book.  The
writing is largely in an interesting variant of English supposedly
invented by this youngster (she's genius level because of some
mutation of the human race....the persons who have the mutation
survived germ warfare that wiped out the rest of the race).  And it
was a very moving story.  I wish I could remember the author's
name...David Palmer, perhaps?  David someone......I wrote a letter
(my first and to date only fan letter to an author) to him and got a
very congenial reply.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #35
Date: 21 Jan 88 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jan 88 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 21 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:

            Books - Beagle & Bear & Cherryh & Galouye &
                    Gibson & Hughart & Kay & Lackey &
                    Martine-Barnes & Moorcock & Niven

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 88 12:04 PST
From: Morgan Mussell <MORGAN%FM1@sc.intel.com>
Subject: Peter Beagle recommendation

   I've seen recommendations for two of Peter Beagle's earlier
works, and I'd like to add his latest, "The Folk of The Air", to the
list.  I read it when it came out last spring, and it's now out in
paperback.  It's a good read in the genre of "contemporary fantasy".

   The protagonist arrives in the town of Avicenna, Ca. (Berkeley)
after quite a few years of wandering in a decrepit volkswagen bus
named Madame Schaumann- Hank.  With him is a young hitch-hiker who
persists in calling him "mister", and asking what it was like to
hear "Day Tripper", and "Eleanor Rigby" for the first time.  After
narrowly getting rid of the polite rider, who pulls a knife and
demands his wallet, the fun begins.  Our hero, Farrell, finds some
of his old cronies involved in "The League For Archaic Pleasures".
As the book continues, some of those pleasures turn out to be very
bizarre, and not always pleasant.  For instance, he gets on the
wrong side of a high school girl who has the power to conjure up
rather nasty beings...

   I read in a review that Beagle spent 11 years working on this
book.  It's beautifully crafted, certain passages reading like
poetry.  Yet his skill with the language never got in the way of my
delight in the plot.  It's an original tale, with no concession to
the "pump out the sequels" mode of some authors in the field.

Morgan

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 19:46 EST
From: MPAGAN%HENRY.decnet@GE-CRD.ARPA
Subject: Fantasy Recommendation

   Okay, so I'm always one step behind the current topics.  Blame
this on the computer services people at my humble place of
employment who refuse to set us up as a USENET host.  Were it not
for the efforts of the good folk at SF-LOVERS Digest, I'd be
completely in the dark.

   Anyway, I just got an SF-LOVERS full of fantasy recommendations
and I just have to add my two cents;

   _The Infinity Concerto_
   _The Serpent Mage_
      both by Greg Bear

   Why do I wake from my ancient slumber to recommend these books?
Well, they're good of course, but there's something else.  I have
been reading fantasy and science fiction for over 18 years (I count
Dr. Seuss), and for the past decade of that time I have been trying
to recapture some of the "Gosh, Wow! Sense of Wonder!"  I got from
reading books in the first eight years (all books, even the lousy
ones).  These two books have shaken my jaded sensibilities out of
their stupor and sent me daydreaming again.  They are not
Tolkien-style.  They are not Zelazny-style. They are not LeGuin
style. Not Donaldson. Not Moorcock, Eddings, Brust,Vance,... They
are like nothing else I've read (and I've read a lot).
   The plot centers around a young (15 or so) self proclaimed poet
who leaves our world for the surreal world of the Sidhe.  (Aside: I
had avoided reading the book for months because the blurb made me
think it was just another damned Celtic mythos elf-lover book.
Wrong.) Aeons ago there was a cataclysmic conflict in which the
humans destroyed(or stole) the souls of the Sidhe, and in
retaliation the Sidhe managed to de-evolve us into small furry
tree-dwelling primates.  Later the Sidhe left, finally settling into
their own pocket universe.  Is our universe a pocket universe? well,
yes and no; it was, but now it isn't... to say more would be
spoiling.  Anyway, the protagonist goes there, goes through a "boot
camp of life" (quick coming of age stuff; The World Is Not Fair, The
Good Thing And The Right Thing Are Not Always The Same, etc.) and
proceeds to be manipulated by everybody and his brother.  As he
learns the nature of things (as well as the fact that he has
something everyone else wants) he takes control of what he can, but
never completely and certainly never perfectly.  In most fantasy he
would eventually find that he is the wielder of the Great Sceptre of
Wazoo and proceed to smite the bad guys and re-instate utopia.  In
most adult fantasy, he would discover that waving the Great Sceptre
of Wazoo doesn't solve anything.  In this case there is a Great
Sceptre of Wazoo(sort of), but neither of the previous things
happens.
   I guess the real miracle of this book is that it made me, a gruff
engineer who (wrongly) deplores art as effete and self-serving, feel
I understood this poet (my Italian grandmother would use the word
"sympatico").  The same goes for all the characters; their actions
are logical and uncontrived.  This is saying alot for most fantasy,
even so-called "adult" fantasy.
   Okay, enough.  Note that these two books are not independent.  As
usual, it is one big book in two volumes.  Since I don't have direct
access to postings, you may flame me directly at:

mpagan%henry.decnet@GE-CRD.Arpa

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 12:04:15 EST
From: Cyril Alberga <ALBERGA@ibm.com>
Subject: Fantasy Request

Two books which I enjoyed very much are:
   The Dreamstone                    Daw, No. 521, 1983
   The Tree of Swords and Jewels     Daw, No. 540, 1983
by C. J. Cherryh.

They are set in a medieval, Celtic world, and deal with (as usual I
suppose) a dwindling elven people.

Of course, I seem to like almost anything by Cherryh.

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 11:42 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Forgotten masterpieces

Years ago I read some books by Daniel Galouye (did I get that right
?).  He struck me as having very original ideas, and the ability to
write thrilling stories to express them.

His works include :

_Counterfeit World_
   The world starts behaving crazily; People disappear and become
   un-persons (they have never existed); small "glitches" in reality
   are discovered ("That big clock couldn't possibly have been
   carried through that small door"), and then corrected by an
   unknown entity; whole pieces of the world disappear, to be
   replaced again later. And the protagonist is the only person who
   notices that something is amiss.

_Dark something-or-other_  (or _something-or-other Darkness_)
   The world is dark. People use clicking stones to orient
   themselves by exhoes. There is a law prohibiting the Displacement
   of Large Objects.  The enemy is the tribe of Zivvers, who somehow
   orient themselves without using their ears. (It seems they are
   confused by large heat sources, hmm...)

I was in the upper half of teenagehood when I read them, so my lack
of SF experience may account for my enthusiasm. But these books
really broadened my horizons, and showed me what SF can be.

Kai

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 13:41:09 EST
From: Richard King <RPK@ibm.com>
Subject: _Neuromancer_, by William Gibson

When I read _Neuromancer_ I didn't much care for it.  It struck me
as a collection of fairly good ideas pieced together into a fairly
routine drugs-sex-violence-and-computers sort of action-adventure
story.  That's fine.  But two things bothered me.

First, I just didn't like Case.  I found his self-destructiveness
and total moral bankruptcy rather off-putting.  (In fact, I really
didn't care for hardly any of the characters except Neuromancer.)
This is not to say that stories about such characters shouldn't be
written.  But rather, I personally have trouble working up interest
in such a character as the protoganist, which in turn reduces my
liking for the book as a whole.

Second, although there were many good ideas in the book, too many
seemed borrowed.  I have to admit that sometimes I think that there
isn't a word or phrase in use today that wasn't used first by
Shakespeare.  Well, I know that's a little exaggerated, and I know
that he was building on the work of his time.  Maybe my general
dislike for most of the characters colored my perceptions but it
really irked me when I got to the end of chapter 7, part 2.  There
is a nice little scene:

 The phone nearest him rang.
    Automatically, he picked it up.
    "Yeah?"
    Faint harmonics, tiny inaudible voices rattling across some
 orbital link, and then a sound like wind.
    "Hello, Case."
    A fifty-lirasi coin fell from his hand, bounced, and rolled out
 of sight across Hilton carpeting.
    "Wintermute, Case.  It's time we talk."
    It was a chip voice.
    "Don't you want to talk, Case?"
    He hung up.
    On his way back to the lobby, his cigarettes forgotten, he had
 to walk the length of the ranked phones.  Each rang in turn, but
 only once, as he passed.

The problem is that it reminded me much too much of certain elements
in another book, like the following scene:

 There was no movement that I could detect among the dark hundreds
 of desks that I had passed.
    Then, but inches away from my hand, the phone rang.
    I screamed and began running.  Everything that had been pent up,
 suppressed, pushed aside, ignored, forgotten, emerged in that awful
 instant.
    I fled, a mindless bundle of perceptions and reactions, and
 pushing, hammering, driving even these apart, the ring followed me.
    ... pursued me, seemed to keep abreast of me -- dying behind and
 breaking out afresh on each desk that I passed -- my black-clad
 Gorgons, wreathed by electric snakes.  And this moment, too, seemed
 timeless and eternal.

(page 68) from _Today We Choose Faces_ by Roger Zelazny, copyright
1973.

The words are different, it's a minor element and, for all I really
know, Gibson may have intended this only as a hint as to who he
admires.  But the overall feeling I get from _Neuromancer_ is that
Gibson is an only somewhat creative guy who can recognize a good
idea when he sees it.

Richard

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday 20 Jan 88 12:05 PM CT
From: Jacob Hugart <GWCHUGPG%UIAMVS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Barry Hughart - any info?

I was paging through the SF-Lovers digest and I saw the name Barry
Hughart.  This is interesting, since one of the variations on my
last name is H-U-G-H-A-R-T, and is used my my Great Uncle's family.
Supposedly, my grandfather decided to drop the second 'H' whereas
his brother kept it.

Anyway, I would be very interested in any biographical material on
Barry Hughart -- addresses, occupations, anything -- that anyone
could supply.

Thank you very much.

Jacob Hugart
Data Base Consulting Group
University of Iowa
GWCHUGPG@UIAMVS.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 19:30:35 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet) writes:
>I found them as good as anything by Tolkien.  That's blasphemy, I
>know, but it's true, and not a comparison I make lightly.

   I enjoyed them, but didn't think that they were as good as
Tolkien's best.  But, like yours, that's just an opinion.

>"The Fionavar Tapestry" is a sword and sorcery novel, centering on
>the battle between good and evil.  Even though it's been done
>before, Mr. Kay does it in a completely new way, and it's
>wonderful.

   It most definitely is *not* a sword and sorcery novel!  It falls
into the nearly extinct class of High Fantasy.  How to tell?  Name
one pure sword-jock in the book.  (Hint, you won't find any.  There
are some very good swordsmen, but no sword-jocks.)

>"For the honor of the Black Boar!" -- Diarmuid, Prince of Fionavar

   I thought he was just Prince of Brennen (or what ever the name of
the Kingdom was, it's been nearly a year now.)

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 19:26:04 GMT
From: locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Timothy Haas)
Subject: Re: fantasy recommendations

I also recommend a couple of other books by a relativly new author -
Mercedes (Misty) Lackey.  The lady is a good author and a marvelous
song- writer.  The books are :
   _Arrows of the Queen_
   _Arrow's Flight_
   _Arrow's Fall_
All three are published in paperback by DAW.  She has also written
two tapes worth of songs, the second of which, _Heralds, Harpers,
and Havoc_, is entirely about the trilogy.  She has also written a
number of short stories, Two of which are included in the
Anthologies _Swords and Sorceress'_ 3 and 4.  The tapes (The other
one is entitled _Murder, Mystery, and Mayhem_) can be ordered
through Off Centaur Productions, which specializes in Fannish
related music.  Unfortunatly, I don't have the address for Off
Centaur handy, but I will post it as soon as I can.  Misty has a
number of other books in the works, the first of which is entitled
_Oathbound_, an is planned for a July release.  It is to be set in
the same world as the above mentioned books, but several hundred
years in the past and in a different kingdom (country).

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 19:08:00 EST
From: "TRWSOG::ANSOK" <ansok%trwsog.decnet@scivax.stsci.edu>
Subject: Humorous SF

As long as people are recommending their favorite humorous SF, I'll
add one more to the list:

   _The Dragon Rises_, by Adrienne Martine-Barnes

Not the kind of slapstick that you find in, say, Douglas Adams, but
it brings a chuckle every time I read it.  I've heard it described
as a "comedy of manners", and I'll certainly agree with that (with
just a touch of space opera).

Question: Does anyone know if there are/will be more books in this
series?  The author said that this was to be the first of a
four-book series, but she was finding the second book harder to
write than the first -- the main character wasn't as much of a
rascal as the character in the first book, and wasn't as much fun to
write about.  I heard this several years ago, and haven't seen any
new book yet.  Is this just sitting on a back-burner somewhere, or
did I miss the book?  I think the second book was to be _The Lion
Wakes_.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Jan 88 13:11:20-PST
From: Elric VIII <D.DOUG@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: RE:  fantasy recommendations

I find it interesting that there is no mention of Michael Moorcock
in any of the lists of "must-reads" posted.  Moorcock has done more
than any other author I have read to break down the walls between
fantasy, sf, and mainstream fiction.  He has played a large part in
the shaping of the genre, and as such his works are important.  In
particular, I recommend the following:

Elric of Melnibone

   If you like this one, you will almost certainly want to read the
other five books of the Elric saga:

The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
The Weird of the White Wolf
The Vanishing Tower
The Bane of the Black Sword
Stormbringer

(Note: don't read the last book of ANY of his series while feeling
depressed)

Also recommended for a first-time Moorcock reader is Behold the Man,
a tale about a would-be messiah who is presented with the
opportunity to use a time machine....

Doug Gibson
ARPA:  d.doug@macbeth.stanford.edu
BITNet:  chardros@suwatson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 88 12:10 EST
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Last word on Louis Wu

A while back there was a bit of genealogical controversy as to who
is Wu, and who isn't.  The hopefully last words on the subject
follow, being a transcript of a letter I just got on the subject.

Dear Greg,
   Officially: there's been a coincidence in names.  Carlos Wu's son
entrusted to Beowulf Shaeffer, is no relation to Louis Wu of
RINGWORLD.  Among thirty-odd billion people you may expect such
repetitions.
   Unofficially: I should have made it clear by giving the kids
different names.

Best wishes,
Larry Niven
(end transcript)

May the matter rest in peace.
Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #36
Date: 25 Jan 88 1004-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 88 1004-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:

               Books - Effinger & Harrison (2 msgs) &
                       Requests (5 msgs) & Book Finder &
                       Nebula Winners &
                       Fantasy Recommendations (3 msgs) &
                       Hemispherism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 18:43:06 GMT
From: haste+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Effinger query

Is there a connection between "When Gravity Fails" and "What Entropy
Means to Me" or is there just a vague similarity in titles?

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 12:17:45 GMT
From: stech!sysop@rutgers.edu (Jan Harrington)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

aaron@garfield.UUCP (Aaron Shaw) says:
>   I'm looking for two books- The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted,
> and The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat.  I think that they
> were published in 1965, or around there, and are hardcover.  The
> local Coles tells me that I will never find them in their stores,
> but I should check the used books stores.

Both books have been published by the Science Fiction Book Club,
which keeps a significant backlist.  Find someone you know who
belongs to the club who can let you look at their brochures.  Then,
you can either wait until the book you want show up in the brochures
(as they do from time to time) or write the club directly.

Jan Harrington
Scholastech Telecommunications
ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop
allegra!stech!sysop

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 12:43:48 GMT
From: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John C. Orthoefer)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

aaron@garfield.UUCP (Aaron Shaw) writes:
>  I'm looking for two books- The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted,
>and The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat.  I think that they
>were published in 1965, or around there, and are hardcover.  The
>local Coles tells me that I will never find them in their stores,
>but I should check the used books stores.  So, I checked out that
>possibility, and came up empty.  So, if anyone has any information
>where I can find one of these books, or if you have one you'd like
>to sell, then please let me know.

Most bookstores have the books your looking for.
_The_Adventures_of_the_ Stainless_Steel_Rat_ is just a complation of
3 other books, The_Stainless_ Steel_Rat_,
_The_Return_of_the_Stainless_Steel_Rat_, and _The_Stainless_
Steel_Rat_Saves_the_Galaxy_.  _The_Stainless_Steel_Rat_Gets_Drafted_
is the newest just published in Oct. 87.  There are three others
_The_Stainless_ Steel_Rat_for_President_,
_The_Stainless_Steel_Rat_Wants_You_ and _A_
Stainless_Steel_Rat_is_Born_.  The three books in
_The_Aventures_of_SSR_ have been releast as separate books around
the releast of _SSR_gets_Drafted_.  B.Dalton I know carries all of
them and Waldens carries the first 6.  The dude at B.Daltons told me
they where the only place to get _The_SSR_gets_drafted_.  Does
anyone else know about this?

John C. Orthoefer
University of Florida
UUCP: ...ihnp4!codas!ufcsv!beach.cis.ufl.edu!jco
Internet: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 22:05:00 GMT
From: prism!peter@rutgers.edu
Subject: Book Search: Sci Fi's Le Carre

I would be grateful for suggestions for the science fiction
equivalent of the John Le Carre spy novels.  In other words I like
books with protagonists who evolve from being 'spies out in the
cold' in a figurative sense , to people who try 'come in from the
cold' and come to terms with their world/themselves.  I've found
that NEUROMANCER, COUNT ZERO, ENDER'S GAME, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, THE
MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH, and SOLARIS have protagonists of that nature.

Anyway, I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

Peter J. Stucki
Mirror Systems
2067 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA, 02140
617-661-0777 extension 131
peter@mirror.TMC.COM
UUCP:{mit-eddie,ihnp4,harvard!wjh12,cca,cbosg,seismo}!mirror!peter
ARPA   :  peter@mgm.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88  9:53 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Title request

Some years ago I read a novel set a couple of centuries in the
future.  Mankind has cooperated on a Big Project to liberate
themselves from drudgery and all the dull, necessary things we have
to do every day.  The solution is a gigantic AI built at the centre
of the Earth (!), with mind-links to everybody. The AI is able to
analyse mental commands, and the resources to act on them. What it
amounts to is : *MAGIC WORKS*.  Everyone can be a sorceror.

The result is a nightmare : The world turns into a set of closed
environments controlled by strong personalities. Some live alone,
others keep "slaves", weaker people who need leadership/someone to
blame for their dull lives.

The feel of the book is like a nightmare too : The people are like
the caricatures one meet in bad dreams, the world is chaotic,
constantly changing (as do the rules governing it).

It had me completely fascinated. Does anyone know the title and
author ?

Kai

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 88 14:09:41 EST
From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY@BROWNVM>
Subject: story request

I was giving my room it's infrequent cleaning, and came across a
scrap of paper with a printout of someone else's story request to
SF-LOVERS.  This was a while ago, I'm not sure where the paper is to
find the poster's address, etc. So:

What is the name of the story which has aliens saying things like
the following by way of apology:

"My head explodes.  Wild beasts eat me alive.  Unsightly green ichor
oozes from my bones and gives disease to millions.  Oh, the shame."

My version is much less amusing than the original which I remember
reading...  what is this story?

Thanks,
jeremy bornstein

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 20:57:35 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

I'm sorry, but I lost who said this:

>I read several books by Alan Nourse when I was 14 or 15. Thoroughly
>enjoyed them. The only title I can for certain attribute to him is
>"The Beyond", about paranormal powers beginning to develop among
>star faring Terrans.

Alan Nourse did not write "The Beyond." This was written by a
husband/wife team whose last name began with an "N." I know this,
because I also read it when I was a teenager, and for a while it was
my favorite book. You see, I first read Andre Norton, then saw Alan
Nourse's books next to hers and read them, then noticed "The Beyond"
and a couple of others near *his* books.  Unfortunately, I can't
remember (and am too lazy to go to the library to check) who wrote
"The Beyond."

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 13:05:49 EST
From: Cyril Alberga <ALBERGA@ibm.com>
Subject: Sources for bibliographic information

In attempting to catalog my SF books I have found a number with no
publication date.  Most of these are paperbacks, and based on their
prices (mostly 35 or 50 cents) are from the 1950s.  Is there any
reasonably accessible reference that could be used to find the
publication dates of these books?  I have tried the Cumulative Book
Index, but it doesn't seem to list mass market paperbacks from that
period.

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 07:02:43 GMT
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Isaiah Kamens)
Subject: I can find books!

I happen to work at the libraries of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology.  I therefore have been trained in the use of the on-line
national cataloging system which is used by the MIT libraries, the
Library of Congress and most of the other big libraries in the
United States.

The people I work for do not mind if, in my free time, I search for
books on the system.  Therefore, if you know some information about
a book, but not enough to locate it on your own, you can send me
what you know via e-mail and I will do my best to find all the books
that fall within your specifications.

For example, if you're looking for an Asimov book that he wrote
sometime between 1976 and 1978 which has the word "time" in the
title, I can help.

Just send me whatever information you have, as specificly as
possible, and I will do what I can to find the books you seek.

Happy reading!

Jonathan I. Kamens
jik@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 13:07:28 GMT
From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Nebula winning novels please

Here are all the Nebula winning novels.  And as a special one time,
never to be repeated bonus, included free of charge are all the Hugo
winning novels.

Nebula Novels:

1965    Dune                            Frank Herbert
1966    Babel-17                        Samuel R. Delany
        Flowers For Algernon            Daniel Keyes
1967    Einstein Intersection           Samuel R. Delany
1968    Rite of Passage                 Alexei Panshin
1969    The Left Hand of Darkness       Ursula K. Le Guin
1970    Ringworld                       Larry Niven
1971    A Time of Changes               Robert Silverberg
1972    The Gods Themselves             Isaac Asimov
1973    Rendezvous With Rama            Arthur C. Clarke
1974    The Dispossessed                Ursula K. Le Guin
1975    The Forever War                 Joe Haldeman
1976    Man Plus                        Frederik Pohl
1977    Gateway                         Fred Pohl
1978    Dreamsnake                      Vonda McIntyre
1979    The Fountains of Paradise       Arthur C. Clarke
1980    Timescape                       Gregory Benford
1981    The Claw of the Conciliator     Gene Wolfe
1982    No Enemy But Time               Michael Bishop
1983    Startide Rising                 David Brin
1984    Neuromancer                     William Gibson
1985    Ender's Game                    Orson Scott Card
1986    Speaker For The Dead            Orson Scott Card

Hugo Novels:

1953    The Demolished Man              Alfred Bester
1954    [No awards given]
1955    They'd Rather be Right          Mark Clifton and Frank Riley
1956    Double Star                     Robert A. Heinlein
1957    [No fiction awards given]
1958    The Big Time                    Fritz Leiber
1959    A Case of Conscience            James Blish
1960    Starship Troopers               Robert A. Heinlein
1961    A Canticle for Leibowitz        Walter M. Miller
1962    Stranger in a Strange Land      Robert A. Heinlein
1963    The Man in the High Castle      Philip K. Dick
1964    Here Gather the Stars           Clifford D. Simak
           (also titled: Way Station)
1965    The Wanderer                    Fritz Leiber
1966    ...And Call me Conrad           Roger Zelazny
           (also titled: This Immortal)
        Dune                            Frank Herbert
1967    The Moon is a Harsh Mistress    Robert A. Heinlein
1968    Lord of Light                   Roger Zelazny
1969    Stand on Zanzibar               John Brunner
1970    The Left Hand of Darkness       Ursula K. Le Guin
1971    Ringworld                       Larry Niven
1972    To Your Scattered Bodies Go     Philip Jose' Farmer
1973    The Gods Themselves             Isaac Asimov
1974    Rendezvous With Rama            Arthur C. Clarke
1975    The Dispossessed                Ursula K. Le Guin
1976    The Forever War                 Joe Haldeman
1977    Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang Kate Wilhelm
1978    Gateway                         Frederik Pohl
1979    Dreamsnake                      Vonda N. McIntyre
1980    The Fountains of Paradise       Arthur C. Clarke
1981    The Snow Queen                  Joan D. Vinge
1982    Downbelow Station               C. J. Cherryh
1983    Foundation's Edge               Isaac Asimov
1984    Startide Rising                 David Brin
1985    Neuromancer                     William Gibson
1986    Ender's Game                    Orson Scott Card
1987    Speaker for the Dead            Orson Scott Card

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 88  18:48 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@rutgers.edu
Subject: fantasy recommendations

Fantasy recommendations I have not seen mentioned in all these
recommendations:

Juanita Coulson:
   _The Web of Wizardry_
   _The Death-God's Citadel_

   (not directly related but set in the same world; both quite good
   but I read them quite awhile ago and have no idea what their
   status is as far as in-print/not-in-print)

Linda Bushyager:
   _Master of Hawks_
   _The Spellstone of Shaltus_

   (ditto all comments above)


susan de guardiola
degsusm@yalevm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88  9:44 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Fantasy recommendations

I second the recommendation of Talisman by Stephen King & Peter
Straub.  Has anyone mentioned The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson ?
"Realistic" fantasy with Elves & Trolls & Norse Gods. Read it !

By the way, are Jhereg/Yendi/Teckla out of print ? A friend of mine
was in London recently, with a loooong book-list from me, and that's
what she was told. The last dozen SF-LOVERS Digests have made me
feel I'm the only guy in fandom who hasn't read them. Sigh.

Kai

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 16:54:54 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations

I missed the original postings so I don't know what prompted this
flurry of fantasy recommendations but here is my two cents worth...

Craig Shaw Gardner (who says fantasy can't be fun?)
   The Ebenezum Trilogy
      _A Malady of Magics_
      _A Multitude of Monsters_
      _A Night in the Netherhells_
    The Wuntvor Trilogy (well, it will be a trilogy when its finished)
       _A Difficulty with Dwarves_

Glen Cook
   The Chronicles of the Black Company
      _The Black Company_
      _Shadows Linger_
      _The White Rose_

Will Shetterly
   _Cats Have No Lord_
   _Witchblood_

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 18:26:29 GMT
From: jack@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

A wonderful howler by someone who presumably never set foot in the
southern hemisphere: in Edgar Pangborn's story "The Red Hills of
Summer" there is the offhand statement "Prevailing winds in the
southern hemisphere blew westward as on Earth". (A few lines later
he makes it clear that he really means it by expecting deserts to be
to the west of mountain ranges).

Some other physics of a similar nature: in Rex Gordon's "No Man
Friday" (a very fine book apart from this lapse, sort of midway
between Verne and Lem) he has the US launching a satellite that
orbits the earth along the 49th parallel. And much more
irritatingly: in Larry Niven's "Neutron Star" (a story which loses
its entire point from the physics being wrong) the description of
the tidal stretching effect is bananas. No part of the spaceship
would be safer than any other and crawling to the middle would leave
you exposed to tidal forces of the same intensity. In fact the story
makes a sociological howler even worse than the physical one - a
culture that can send people within a few miles of a neutron star
and which forgets elementary Newtonian gravitation theory? Come off
it.

Anyone else got samples of dotty science in SF?

Jack Campin
Computing Science Department
University of Glasgow,
17 Lilybank Gardens
Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland
041 339 8855 x 6045
ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
USENET: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #37
Date: 25 Jan 88 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 88 1015-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:

           Films - Ewoks (3 msgs) & The Point (3 msgs) &
                   Return Of The Living Dead II & 
                   Neuromancer & Spanish SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 88 16:42:40 GMT
From: cracraft@venera.isi.edu (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: Ewoks in Return of the Jedi

Does anyone know anything about the following rumor? It says that
the Ewoks and the jungle-habitat were somehow modeled after the
Viet-Cong strongholds of Northern Vietnam, and that when the Ewoks
were envisioned, the entire idea was meant to carry some moral
implication about involvement and interference with the Northern
Vietnamese way of life.

I forget where I heard this; it sounds so preposterous, but a recent
viewing of Return of the Jedi brought it back to mind and I wanted
to bounce it around on the list to see if anyone else had heard it.

Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 18:28:25 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ewoks in Return of the Jedi

>Does anyone know anything about the following rumor? It says that
>the Ewoks and the jungle-habitat were somehow modeled after the
>Viet-Cong strongholds of Northern Vietnam, and that when the Ewoks
>were envisioned, the entire idea was meant to carry some moral
>implication about involvement and interference with the Northern
>Vietnamese way of life.

The original Ewoks were Wookies, but Lucas realized that he had made
Chewie too technologically advanced to make that work by the time
they got into the stories. So he simply scaled them down to the size
of a Kenner Stuffed Toy (I own a bunch of them. they're cute) and
made them teddy bears.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 14:48:09 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Ewoks in Return of the Jedi

> Does anyone know anything about the following rumor? It says that
> the Ewoks and the jungle-habitat were somehow modeled after the
> Viet-Cong strongholds of Northern Vietnam, and that when the Ewoks
> were envisioned, the entire idea was meant to carry some moral
> implication about involvement and interference with the Northern
> Vietnamese way of life.
>
> I forget where I heard this; it sounds so preposterous, but a
> recent viewing of Return of the Jedi brought it back to mind and I
> wanted to bounce it around on the list to see if anyone else had
> heard it.

What I remember is that Locus wanted a non-tech. advanced group to
fight and win out over the Empire.  He originally invisioned the
Wookies in this role, but the movies had shown the Wookies more
advanced through Chewie.  Therefore the Ewoks were invented.  I
think I remember Locus say something like (this in no way a quote),
Ewoks with the Empire is akin to the Viet-Cong holding out and
winning against a super-power of the US.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 88 20:30:45 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Pointed inquiry into Made-for-TV animated movie

Anyone remember a semi-humorous, semi-psychedelic, somewhat
philosophical animated TV movie which was broadcast (maybe only
once) in the early 1970's, about this kid who was the only
round-headed person living in a society of folks who all had pointed
heads?  Eventually, after much harrassment about this "difference",
he heads out on some kind of a quest, with his pointy- looking dog,
Arrow.

They encounter a number of unusual personages in their travels,
including "The Pointed Man", who seems to have had at least 3 faces
and quite a number of arms and legs (not to mention a pointed head
and hat).

At the end of the film, the kid and his dog come back home, and an
amazing event occurs showing that there really are't any important
differences between people with pointed and round heads (I won't
tell you what happens; I don't want to spoil it for anyone in case
this film is rebroadcast).

Incidentally, the Nilsson song, "Me and my Arrow" was heard in this
film, and I believe was actually written especially for it.

Does anyone remember the name of this film?  I thought it was pretty
good at the time, and I think it's got a good message, which could
stand repeating on national TV in these dark days.

Thanks ...

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 88 23:39:29 GMT
From: campoly@violet.berkeley.edu (Mr. Science)
Subject: Re: Pointed inquiry into Made-for-TV animated movie

The movie you are referring to is "The Point".  I, too, enjoyed this
movie very much.  The young boy was named Oblio (sp?) and his dog's
name was Arrow.  Hence the name of the title song "Me and my Arrow".
I also remember that the other children with pointed heads played a
game called "Triangle Toss", where they threw a triangular frame and
caught it with their heads.

I believe the movie was a Disney production.  I know it is being
distributed by Disney on videocasette and was shown on the Disney
Channel on cable a little while ago.  I don't have cable, but I saw
the listing in the TV guide.

Gregory Dow
Chemical Engineering Dept.
University of California
Berkeley, CA  94720
ARPA:   campoly@violet.berkeley.edu
UUCP:   {uwvax, decvax, ihnp4}!ucbvax!campoly%violet.berkeley.edu
BITNET: POLYDOW@UCBCMSA

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 88 05:03:29 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Pointed inquiry into Made-for-TV animated movie

   The song "Me and my Arrow" which pops up very often in the movie
was also the song used on commercials for the Plymouth Arrow.  I
thought (though some may not have thought) that the movie had a neat
idea and spirit but lacked to the tightness of a good story.  The
viewer knew what was going to happen before a third of the movie is
over.  Simply put, it plodded along and stretched for a couple
hours, an idea which could've been told in less time and with
greater finesse.
   However, it's worth seeing at least once.

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 04:19:26 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD II

                    RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD II
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Entertaining but unimaginative
     retelling of RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD with younger
     protagonists.  An occasional clever joke but in general a
     degradation of this branch of the series.  Rating: 0.

     1. And now let us speak of the generations of the Living Dead.
Now Richard Matheson was mindful of the popularity of vampires that
stretcheth back to Dracula and yes, even unto Varney.  And he said,
"I shall make me a modern vampire story."  And he took unto himself
a typewriter and there was born a writing called I AM LEGEND.  And
the fans looked upon I AM LEGEND and they dubbed it pretty good.

     2. Now I AM LEGEND begat three films in degrees that varieth.
And their names are INVISIBLE INVADERS, THE LAST MAN ON EARTH, and
THE OMEGA MAN.  The two younger admitted their parentage, but not
the oldest.  The two older were meager of budget, but not the
youngest.  But it was the middle one, THE LAST MAN ON EARTH, than
became the father of generations.  It starred Vincent Price and was
made in the distant land of Italy.

     3. And it came to pass that in the land of Pittsburgh there
dwelt a lowly maker of television commercials.  And his name was
George Romero.  And Romero looked upon THE LAST MAN ON EARTH and
sayeth unto himself, "Now there is how to make a horror movie for
few pieces of silver."  And he spake unto John Russo, saying, "Write
me a script."  And in the fullness of time there was NIGHT OF THE
LIVING DEAD.

     4. But NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD was poor of prospect and none
had heard of it and fewer cared.  And it played only at theaters
with big screens and no walls.

     5. And Roger Ebert looked upon it and his eye was offended.
And he took unto himself a typewriter and spake unto legions of his
anger, a very grievous error.  And the READERS' DIGEST was among the
legions who heard his lamentations and repeated his words unto
hosts.  And the hosts repeated the words unto multitudes.

     6. And NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD prospered.  And John Russo took
unto himself a typewriter and wrote the novel of the film.

     7. And in the fullness of time George Romero saw that there
were multitudes who were mindful of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD and he
made DAWN OF THE DEAD.  And in the land of Italy DAWN OF THE DEAD
was known by the name of ZOMBIE and multitudes had audience with it.

     8. And Lucio Fulci said, "Here is how to make a film for not
many pieces of silver but which will call forth legions."  And he
made ZOMBIE II.  And in the land of America there had been no ZOMBIE
I, so there ZOMBIE II was called ZOMBIE.  And in the lands of Italy
and America there were legions of filmmakers who looked upon the
prosperity.  And they had envy of audiences of multitudes and of the
smallness of the investment.  And many made films like unto what
they had seen.

     9. And John Russo looked upon the storm and lo he was wonderly
wroth.  Had he not written the writing of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD?
And the courts said, yes, he did.  And lo, did this not mean he
could also make sequels?  But Romero said no, he knew whereof he
wanted the series to go.  But the courts spake unto Romero, saying
"Give unto Russo equal right."  And he did.

     10. And John Russo took unto himself a typewriter and wrote a
book called RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD.  And in the fullness of time
he made him a film called RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD, though it were
not in the likeness of the book.

     11. And George Romero made a third "Living Dead" film, DAY OF
THE DEAD.  And it was released in a short span of days from RETURN
OF THE LIVING DEAD.  And audiences looked upon RETURN OF THE LIVING
DEAD and many were well pleased.  But when audiences looked upon
George Romero's DAY OF THE DEAD, many said that his day was done.

     12. And John Russo was well used to writing novels from "Living
Dead" films.  And, yea, it came to pass that he wrote a novel of the
film RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD and called it RETURN OF THE LIVING
DEAD.  And some fans and librarians were wonderly wroth and spake in
anger, saying, "One author cannot write two entirely different
novels and give them but one title.  For lo, many libraries are
geared to the principle that if two novels have but one author they
will have different titles.  And if two novels have but one title
they will have different authors."  But John Russo turned his face
from these people.  And, in truth, few libraries had either book.

     13. And it came to pass that RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD was
popular unto its generation and it begat RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD
II.

     14. Let us speak now of RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD II and so
that the ear of the mind not become weary, let us lapse into modern
English.

     RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD II is a bit like RETURN OF THE LIVING
DEAD-- JUNIOR EDITION.  The story has been scaled sown so that two
teens and one pre-teen can be the heroes.

     Jesse Wilson (played by Michael Kenworthy) is bullied by the
older kids in the neighborhood.  Chased by two big kids, he runs
across a lost, hermetically sealed canister containing a living dead
corpse.  It is assumed you know from the previous film that the
military has packed corpses from a nerve gas accident in these
canisters and opening them will lead to a new plague of zombies.
Now, Jesse knows there are some things boy was not meant to tamper
with.  He is willing to leave the corpses alone, but his two
tormentors (of course) have all the sense that adults have in this
film (namely none).  Soon the cat's out of the bag, the corpse's out
of the canister, and a bunch more from a nearby graveyard are
climbing for higher ground.  The remaining story provides jolts but
no surprises.

     The horror content of RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD II is overly
familiar; the graveyard humor occasionally hits paydirt but not
often enough.  To further confuse matters, James Karen and Thom
Mathews, who died in the previous film but didn't realize it until
hours later, reprise almost identical roles with different character
names and die again in just the same way.

     The best way to make a sequel to a popular horror film is
either to tell a different story or to tell the same story but tell
it more creatively (as EVIL DEAD II and, to a lesser extent,
NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET III did).  RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD II does
neither but does succeed in putting its tongue further in its cheek
than its predecessor did.  For the few good gags (and it spite of
gross-out effects that give another sort of gags), rate it a 0 on
the -4 to +4 scale.

                    Genealogy of the Living Dead
                          ----------------
                          | Night of the |
                          | Living Dead  |
                          |______________|
                                 |
                    Romero       |      Russo
              -----------------------------------------
              |                                       |
              v                                       v
        ----------------   ----------------    -----------------
        |   Dawn of    |   |  (European)  |    | Return of the |
        |   the Dead   |===|    Zombie    |    |  Living Dead  |
        |______________|   |______________|    |_______________|
              |                   |                   |
              |                   |                   v
              |                   |            -----------------
              |                   | (Fulci)    | Return of the |
              |                   |            | Living Dead 2 |
              |                   |            |_______________|
              v                   v
         ----------------   ----------------    ----------------
        |    Day of    |   |  (European)  |    |  (American)  |
        |   the Dead   |   |  Zombie II   |====|    Zombie    |
        |______________|   |______________|    |______________|

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 19 Jan 88 12:55:31-PST
From: Elric VIII <D.DOUG@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Neuromancer

Over the summer, I saw advertisements on TV, including such things
as telephone dial tone and dialing sounds and a green-phosphor grid,
ending with the word "neuromancer" appearing on screen.  My sources
tell me that this was an ad for a movie.  However, I have heard
nothing about this alleged movie....  does anyone out there know
just what is happening if that was, in fact, a movie ad, or what I
saw if it was not a movie ad?

Doug Gibson
ARPA:  d.doug@macbeth.stanford.edu
BITNet:  chardros@suwatson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 88 15:16 EDT
From: <BARSIMAN@BUASTA.BITNET> (SPACEMAN SPIFF)
Subject: Spanish Scifi

I hope this question isn't old news, but does anyone out there know
of any Scifi movies from within the past 25 years or so that were
made in Spanish?  I am NOT looking for something with Spanish
subtitles, and, hopefully, something I could rent.

Also, any chance of any good scifi books _written_ in Spanish.  I do
NOT want to buy a translation of such a book in English, but the
original Spanish version.

thanks in advance..

Omar Barsimantov
725 Commonwealth Avenue
Astronomy Library
Boston, Ma. 02215
(617) 353-3644

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #38
Date: 25 Jan 88 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 88 1028-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Donaldson (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 20:14:14 GMT
From: cisunx!jgsst3@rutgers.edu (John G. Schmid)
Subject: Re: Donaldson Bashing

Most of the comments aimed at Stephen Donaldson are because of his
Thomas Covenant books.  Because of these and because people hate the
character of Thomas Coventant many of these people have said "skip
these books".

I think this would be a mistake.  Donaldson did a very good job
creating The Land and the character of Covenant.  It is because he
did such a good job wit Covenant that soooo many people hate these
books.

Final point: I too thought that Covenant was a bastard and a
whimpering S.O.B.  and I sometimes wanted to reach into the books
and strangle the character.  It is for precisely this reason that I
kept reading the books.  If an author is doing his job well enough
to get me that involved with what is happening I consider the book
well worth the time put in reading it.

End of ranting.

John Schmid

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 21:47:09 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

I point that most fantasy readers seem to overlook: it is possible
to read the TC books on the assumption that Covenant is *right*,
that it really *is* all a dream.  I found that balancing these two
points of view added significantly to my enjoyment of the story.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 22:45:38 GMT
From: looking!brad@rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Why do they like science fiction?

I read the 6 TC books.  By the 6th one, I couldn't figure out why.

The first and third were good, and the 2nd was standard lower class
middle-of-trilogy fare.

And the 4th (Wounded land) introduced something new.  But by number
5 my twisted visage wound itself around the wretched remains of my
despair soaked skull, as I plodded in desperately chosen aching
steps towards new levels of loathesome page turning.

By number six, my self despite caused my eyes to drip from their
sockets with pain that flayed the flesh from my tortured bones in
slow, agonizing pulls, defining a new level of sorrow and utter self
hatred.

Anyway, if you haven't read #5 or #6, don't bother.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 88 11:35 EDT
From: <MANAGER%smith.bitnet@rutgers.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: re: Thomas Covenant and his crime of "passion"

David Baraff writes:

>Lisa Evans writes:
>> I agree with Michael Farren that Thomas Covenant is a repulsive
>> book.  I tried to read it back in college, and gave up in Chapter
>> Six of the first book, about the point where Covenant decides to
>> rape a teenage girl he doesn't think exists.
>
>While I certainly agree with what Lisa does not like, there is one
>point that must be considered - "Covenant decides to rape a teenage
>girl he doesn't think exists". Remember, Covenant is convinced that
>he is DREAMING -- he is totally convinced that what is happening is
>unreal. How many of you have had a dream (e.g. sexual in nature)
>where you find yourself doing something (e.g. cheating on someone)
>that you would never do in real life? Do you wake up and condemn
>yourself for being mean and rotten? Since Covenant thinks its a
>dream, why shouldn't he satisfy himself, since it won't be hurting
>anyone else?

The only problem with your reasoning, David, is that rape isn't
about sexual gratification, it's about violence.  Change Lisa's
sentence to "Covenant decides to severely beat a teenage girl he
doesn't think exists" and see if you feel the same way about it.
Plus, you have to consider whether Covenant's belief that he is
dreaming should absolve him of anything. If you're solipsistic to
the point of craziness, I suppose you might walk around shooting
people and reasoning that since they're all creations of your mind,
there's no harm done.  If you do something like this and then don't
feel any remorse, it doesn't mean you're ok, it means you're crazy.

Good posting, Lisa.

Mary Malmros

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 88 13:00:25 PST
From: Steve Oliphant <OLIPHANT@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: 7th Covenant Book

Has anyone ever read (or seen) the SEVENTH book in the series about
Thomas Covenant? I saw it a few years ago. It was a small book
(about 60 pages) containing material that was cut out of the first
trilogy. It was the full story of the a journey (made by some of the
main characters) that was described to Thomas Covenant. I think that
it was the journey to the Giants homeland. Unfortunately, I do not
remember the Thomas Covenant books well enough to reconstruct the
story.

In the forward to book Donaldson said that since trilogy was growing
too large and that since Thomas Covenant did not go on the
expedition, the whole story could be safely summarized and described
to Thomas Covenant by someone who did go on it.

Steven Oliphant
Oliphant@Sumex-aim.Stanford.Edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 88  20:01:18 EST
From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: My last words on Thomas Covenant.....

First off, I saw an episode of "Nova" a few weeks ago concerning
leprosy, the dread disease that so traumatizes Thomas Covenant.
Turns out leprosy is completely controllable/curable, and has been
since the advent of antibiotics.  If the disease is caught in time,
the infected suffer no ill effects at all.  I seem to recall
Donaldson touching on this, but given this, the whole leper business
seems too conscious an attempt at a tragic, Job-like hero.  What
Donaldson seems to have missed is that tragic, Job-like heroes
suffer nobly.  They don't whine.  And Covenant whines for most of
the damn sextology - funny, the Britannica didn't mention that as a
side effect of leprosy....

As for the weight of guilt and tragedy heaped on Covenant as a
justification for his behavior: I can name a dozen or so fictional
characters, not to mention people I have known, who have suffered
far worse tragedies than getting a nasty but curable disease and
having their marriage break up.  None of them whined.  Merely having
a rotten life is no excuse for whining, raping, and generally
behaving like a total ass.  If you think it does, consider this: a
child is born to an abusive father and a tubercular mother.  At an
early age, said abusive, alcoholic father forces him to go to work.
He grows up to become the sole support of his family, including his
wastrel brother's only son, has numerous unhappy love affairs,
suffers an irreversible that forces him to give up his career, and
still produces good work without whining or giving way to despair.
His name?  Beethoven.

Finally, the major flaw of Thomas Covenant's interminable adventures
isn't Covenant himself, or the series being stretched way past its
breaking point.  It isn't even the fact that Donaldson's mother was
evidently frightened by a thesaurus in early pregnancy.  It's simply
that Donaldson attempted something beyond his powers as a writer, at
least at that stage of his career.  Michael Moorcock, Feodor
Dostoevsky, Philip Wylie - all succeeded in having anti-heroic lead
characters without turning off their readers.  I don't think I'll
get much argument that all three of these are far better writers
than Donaldson.  Maybe Thomas Covenant would have worked if Moorcock
had created him.  But not in his current form, at least not for me.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 88 22:02:30 EST
From: ut6y@hp1.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Thomas Covenant -- everyone's favorite bastard

   Someone made some kind of reference about how Covenant was
compared with Tolkien in the early days.  I think they were
referring more to the Land and it's people and races than to it's
protagonist, who was clearly marked as a bastard from the blurbs and
from page one.  A careful blurb-reader would realize early on that
they were getting a thoroughly nasty anti-hero for a protagonist.
No real misleading there.  In regards to the idea of Saltheart
Foamfollower as the hero, I'm not so sure that's possible.  Foamie
had too many problems and received too little "print-time" (as
opposed to "air-time") to really be given the hero's spot.  My
friend Tim, (who's looking over my shoulder thinking: "Christ! I've
got to get in on this shit!) seems to think (and I'm thinking it
over) that MHORAM (as yet unmentioned in our convo -- a definite
oversight) was the unsung hero, for it was Mhoram who's every
thought was directed at finding ways to save the Land, with never a
selfish thought, nor a thought of how to defeat Foul.  Suddenly a
confused look crosses the reader's face as he says to himself, "But
wait, Mikey: Isn't 'saving the Land' and 'defeating foul' one and
the same?"  NO!  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  In fact, by Defeating Foul,
Covenant actually DAMNEDD the Land to a slow, horrid, creeping
death, resembling, in fact, Leprosy, and for good reason: Foul
wanted to make sure Covenant felt like shit!  Furthermore, remember
that High Lord Elena (poor soul) and Kevin LandWaster (unfortunate
bastard), both concentrated on DEFEATING FOUL, not on saving the
Land, not on Defeating Foul to Save the Land, but on DEFEATING FOUL.
Since their beginnings were tainted from the beginning by....hatred
(thank you, Tim...if he weren't here, I'd probably be babbling
incoherently -- ACTUALLY, considering it's 4:30 in the blessed AM,
if Tim weren't here I'd probably be asleep, but since he wanted to
see the back-issues of SF-LOVERS about Covenant and I'm such a nice
guy....)  Hatred is a part of Despite (obviously), and thus, Foul
had them before they even started.

Am I making any sort of sense here, or is my fuzzy brain fooling me
into thinking I'm coherent?

UT6Y@CRNLVAX5
InterNet: UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 88 07:48:06 EST
From: Keith Dale <kdale@cc3.bbn.com>
Subject: Donaldson

First I read several people flame about TC's rape of the young girl
and thought, "Yup, he's a real bastard all right!  Why did I ever
finish the book (much less all six)?"

Then I read a few replies lauding Donaldson's refreshing treatment
of an antihero and thought, "Yeah, sure, *that's* what I liked about
it..."

Then I read some people castigate SRD for his lousy prose style,
wordiness, LoTR-plot-stealing, etc, and thought, "Hmmm...*did* I
like these books?  Should I have liked these books?"

In retrospect, it wasn't for Thomas that I was reading the books -
it was Saltheart Foamfollower and Bannor of the Bloodguard that kept
me mesmerized by the story.  A single character like Thomas Covenant
would have been interesting for half a chapter, then I would have
been willing to throw the volume into the nearest ocean (and I
*don't* throw books away!).  However, the characters of Foamfollower
and Bannor gave me the incentive to endure the unpleasant filler.

That's what I find intriguing about the whole ordeal - that having
just the "good guys" in the story would have made an entertaining
but forgettable read; having just the "bastard" would have been
impossible; that having both made me consider things I don't
normally expect to have to consider when reading fantasy and having
both made the books rather unforgettable.

Final answer:  I still don't know if I liked it...

Keith

------------------------------

Date: THU JAN 21, 1988 23.40.47 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Thomas Covenant et al

Ok, I've just spent some time sifting through masses upon masses of
SF_Lover's digests (I just got back to school and found them
waiting.)  As a supporter of Donaldson, I would like to throw in a
couple of ideas that, I'm sure, have been used before.  I do,
however, hope that if these opinions are listed as a group, it might
reduce the controversy over this set of books.

As did most, I found that Thomas Covenant was initially the most
despicable person I had ever had the displeasure to come into
contact with.  For that I admired Donaldson.  Do all those who keep
telling us how poor a writer Donaldson is realize that, whether
their reaction was for or against Covenant, the reaction was a
violent one?  Covenant may have been a bastard, but he was a WHOLE
person.  He was believable.  He was real.  Only an excellent writer
could show us a real person and not a cardboard cutout.

Next, to those who complained that if he was truly the hero of the
books, he would have destroyed Foul with the ring in the first
trilogy, I say this.  T.C. was a leper.  That made him different.
How many of us have had dreams where we could do things that were
impossible.  Most of us, however, have the reality of whole lives to
come back to.  T.C.  did not.  If he had accepted 'The Land' for
what it was, it would have destroyed him.  He had no choice but to
do what he did.

I believe that my favorite description of the books was made by Jack
Chalker.  I don't want to get into a discussion on his writings, (I
find them enjoyable...  repetetive but enjoyable) but in his Dancing
Gods series 'The Land' is described to Marge as :

     "There is even one place, called simply The Land, that is so
     fouled up that the one man that can save it does not even
     believe in it's existence."
        (or something to that effect)

   T.C., and both of the worlds in which he lived, were quite real
to me.  I enjoyed the books for many reasons, but uppermost in my
mind is the fact that there was nothing cutesy about them.
Donaldson dealt with cold, hard, reality (??? :^)) and made due with
a hero that was anything but.

Mitchel Ludwig
Box 72 Lehigh Univ.
Beth, Pa.  18015
215-758-1381
BITnet : MFL1@Lehigh.bitnet
INTnet : Kmfludw@vax1.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 88 09:52:35 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Donaldson (significance of TC again)

Ok folks,

I'm usually a literalist, but the allegory in the TC books was so
obvious to me that the rape made perfect sense.  How about this?:

TC is 20th century man, the power of wild magic (white gold) is
technology.  The land is the Earth.  Man has raped the Earth(*) with
technology (pollution), but he can still bend that force to good and
redeem himself.

(*) And feels awful about it.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 20:25:23 GMT
From: ut6y@hp1.ccs.cornell.edu (Uncle Mikey (Michael Scott Shappe))
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant et al

Mitch (MFL1@LEHIGH) said something about how Covenant was a "WHOLE
person".  With THIS I disagree.  Covenant was a THREE-DIMENSIONAL
CHARACTER, but as a person, he was sundered until the very end.
Only near the end of White Gold Wielder do I think Covenant is truly
"Whole" again --- and then he goes and dies!

BIT: UT6Y@CRNLVAX5
Int: UT6Y@hp1.ccs.cornell.edu
USE: UT6Y@hp1.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 23:58:00 GMT
From: diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>I point that most fantasy readers seem to overlook: it is possible
>to read the TC books on the assumption that Covenant is *right*,
>that it really *is* all a dream.

In fact, we have absolute proof that it *is* a dream. Consider:
Thomas looses conciousness, wakes up in another world. The power of
the Land cures his wounds (we have no evidence that his leprosy is
cured, but his dead nerves do regenerate). Once the book is over he
wakes up and finds his nerves in exactly the same condition as when
he left. Now even if the Land did not cure his leprosy, it would be
some time before he got back into the old state. What do you call it
if you think you experience something, then wake up and discovers
that it's not so?

Just for the record: I've read the first half of Book 1, and have
had a friend tell me the high (low?) points in the others.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #39
Date: 25 Jan 88 1054-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 25 Jan 88 1054-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 25 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Boyett & Brust &
                    Clarke (2 msgs) & Dick & Hinz & 
                    Kaye & McKillip

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 21:19:00 GMT
From: michaelm@vax.3com.com (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Ys

malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>>  I've been reading Poul Anderson's _Ys_ books, and I have a
>>>question. Is Anderson making things up completely or was there a
>>>Ys? If there was does anybody have any references??
>>
>>Ys did exist, in one form or another. It is also the cultural
>>equivalent of King Arthur and Camelot in French mythology. Also a
>>royal pain to find English research material on.
>
>According to the notes on the Alan Stivell album, "Renaissance of
>the Celtic Harp", Ys was the ancient capital of Cornwall, inundated
>by the sea (permanently, apparently) in the 5th century AD,
>reportedly as punishment for evil ways.

After I read *Roma Mater* (first of the *Ys* books) I wrote Poul
Anderson and asked him that question.  Here is the pertinent part of
Poul's reply:

   As for the legend of Ys, it existed mainly as folklore; no
   medieval romancer picked it up, just some monkish writers who
   made a moral example of the wicked city that was destroyed by
   flood.  We found various traces of the story in Brittany, and
   some modern literary mentions, of which the most useful to us was
   a kind of compilation, LA LE^H'GENDE DE LA VILLE D'YS [*] by
   Charles Guyot.  At the end of our fourth volume we append a
   discussion of sources.

   There is an opera whose composer I have forgotten, "Le Roi d'Ys,"
   but we are given to understand that its story is only vaguely
   connected to the legend.  A. Merritt stayed closer to it in
   CREEP, SHADOW!  We don't know of any other uses prior to ours,
   though there may be a few.  Karen got the idea of our basic story
   when our stay in Brittany reminded her of it, in the course of a
   trip during which we had earlier stood on Hadrian's Wall.
        Poul Anderson, personal correspondence, 1987

[*] E^H' indicates the letter E with a French accent mark placed
above it.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
   !oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 09:56:02 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Ys

michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes:
>There is an opera whose composer I have forgotten, "Le Roi d'Ys,"
>but we are given to understand that its story is only vaguely
>connected to the legend.  A. Merritt stayed closer to it in CREEP,
>SHADOW!  We don't know of any other uses prior to ours, though
>there may be a few.  Karen got the idea of our basic story when our
>stay in Brittany reminded her of it, in the course of a trip during
>which we had earlier stood on Hadrian's Wall.
>       Poul Anderson, personal correspondence, 1987

I'm surprised.  One of the sections in "Traveller in Black" by John
Brunner is set in Ys.  It is a moral certainty that Poul has read
it.  It may have slipped his mind, or he may not have counted it.
The Ys of Brunner's book is not the Ys of folklore, but it is quite
definitely based on it.

Speaking of "The Traveller in Black", it is one of my favorite
fantasies.  The book is a collection of stories connected by the
common theme of the transition from chaos to order.  The
protagonist, the traveller in black, who has but a single nature,
travels about checking up on what is happening.  He has the power to
make people's expressed wishes come true.  The downfall of Ys is one
of the major sections in the book.

One of the reasons that I particularly like it is that it is not war
oriented.  I grow very, very tired of sword swinging heroes, and
mythic wars against the forces of evil, and mercenary soldiers, and
geopolitics written large, and cops and robbers,...

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 07:57:00 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fantasy

Alan Whitehurst writes:
>I had a book recommended to me a few years back, the title of which
>was _Ariel_ (sorry, don't remember the author's name off hand).
>The

Steven R. Boyett.  It was his first novel, as I understand it; but
quite good.  The only other novel he's written is _Architect of
Sleep_ which is even better (although it seems to end in the middle
of the story.)  Not too long ago, someone posted that he was working
on a sequel to _Architect_.

Unfortunately, there is at least one other book called _Ariel_ so
the title is a poor choice.

>premise of the story was that the natural laws of our world
>(universe?) suddenly change such that technology no longer works
>and magic is the dominate force.  This precipitates a holocost
>which drastically reduces the population of the earth.  The story
>follows the quest of a young boy who witnesses the "change". He is
>befriended by Ariel, a unicorn.  The book is not a typical fantasy,
>nor is Ariel a "typical" unicorn (she has quite a biting wit, as I
>recall).

Yes, but he did leave in the standard "unicorns can only abide
virgins" which is too bad.  In fact, much of the story revolves
around this (which was obvious about half way through).  Too bad he
couldn't come up with a slightly more original premise.

Dan Tilque

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 15:29:46 GMT
From: flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: Steven Brust's _Brokedown_Palace and _Jhereg_

I just reread _Brokedown_Palace_ and the _Jhereg_ series, and I've
come to the conclusion that BP is set about 30 years before
_Jhereg_.  (Apologies if this has been discussed before.)

1.  BP and _Jhereg_ are set on the same world.  There is ample
evidence for this.

2.  BP is set prior to _Jhereg_.  Near the beginning of BP, Devera
says "But I must have missed, since I'm way up here, and that means
I'm probably early too."  And her later remarks display some form of
prescience.  This seems to indicate that Devera is visiting from the
future.  And Devera says, "He said I should go to Fenario because I
would learn something about--well, I'm really not supposed to say."
_Brokedown_Palace_ seems a nice allegory for the upcoming conflict
promised in _Teckla_.

3.  Now the question is, how far in the past is BP?  This connection
is rather tenuous.  The best link I've found is Devera's remark that
"...everyone else will have to watch *out* for [Brigitta's
daughter]."  Brigitta's daughter might be someone we haven't been
told about yet, but Cawti seems to fit the description well.  What's
curious is that in the three _Jhereg_ books, there is nothing at all
about Cawti's origins or past.

Maybe we'll find out more when _Taltos_ comes out in March.

Does the name _Taltos_ mean that the Cycle gets broken in that book?
Will we ever hear about Vlad's first encounter with Morrolan, his
battle with an Athyra wizard, his finding of Spellbreaker, his trip
to Deathgate Falls?  Is Brust going to tell a story from Cawti's
viewpoint?

And what does "...e's me'g ma is e'lnek ha meg nem haltak" mean
anyway?

Felix Lee
flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 88 15:46:20 EST
From: wyzansky@NADC.ARPA (H. Wyzansky)
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke

Bruce Holloway (ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu)
writes:
>Chettri@UDEL.EDU writes:
>>While we're on the subject of Clarke, I'd like to list in order
>>write I consider his best works
>>a) Fountains of Paradise
>>b) Childhoods End
>>c) Imperial Earth
>>e) 2001
>I'd include "The City and the Stars/Against the Fall of the Night"
>- both books have the same plot, but differ in details...

I strongly agree, but I would pick the "City and the Stars" above
its predecessor.  It has a much broader scope and seems better
written.

>Clarke is a fantastic short storiest - and it's for these that he
>first became famous (as with most authors of his generation...)
>"The Nine Billion Names of God", the "Tales of the White Hart",
>"The Sentinel", that one where aliens come to warn Earth of
>impending doom, only to find everyone gone already...

"Rescue Mission".  This story has one of the best ending lines I
have ever read.  (No spoilers - read it yourself!!)  I am surprised
that no one has ever picked that up to write a sequel.

>The best thing to do is to buy and read everything Clarke has ever
>done, including nonfiction. "It's the only way to be sure!"

Second that!!

Ajit Mayya (mayya@hpindda.hp.com) adds:
>Since you left a slot here I shall take the liberty of filling it
>in.
>  d) Rendezvous with Rama
>A must for all sci-fi lovers.

As is all of Clarke's stuff.  I also recommend _The Deep Range_,
which has not been previously mentioned in this discussion.

Does anybody remember the famous "treaty" between Clarke and Asimov
back in the 50's (40's??) where it was mutually agreed that Clarke
was the best Science Fiction Writer and the second-best Science
Writer in the world while Dr. A. was the best Science Writer and the
second-best Science Fiction Writer?

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 88 10:59:46 EST
From: Chettri@UDEL.EDU
Subject: CLARKE

To all the SF-LOVERS readers who replied to my note I thank you.
There was one omission in my note - I forgot to mention that the
paperback version of Imperial Earth that I read was the European
version (PAN). I will state the differences I noted again (please
bear with me)

1) Duncan goes on a hike through 'central park'. This is just a
   prelude to the TITANIC episode (which is in both versions -
   hardback and paper back as well).

2) Talk to the Daughters of Revolution with the hilarious goldfish
   in the hatbowl incident.

3) This one I just remembered - the subtitle of the story was
   "A fantasy of love and Discord". This if I'm not mistaked
   (mistaken) was the subtitle to the book SIRIUS by (I forget his
   name, but he was a great influence on Clarke).

In fact the name of the ship was also a 'hats off' to this same
author whose name I forget (SIRIUS). Another literary reference was
in the chapter title THE ISLAND OF DR. MOHAMMED which was a story by
H.G. Wells - the island of Dr. Moreau, where genetic experiments
were being carried out. Did any of you note any other literary
references ?

Again, any info. on the differences between the European paperback
and the American Hardback/paperback of IE will be appreciated.

To the chap who mentioned Against the Fall of Night/The city and th
e stars. I thought that although themes he develops there pop up
later in childhoods end and 2001; latter books are more mature and
therefore major works. (PLEASE do not take this to be a criticism of
your taste).

Again arguments, pro and con are welcomed.

I list here the four major works by Clarke

1) IE
2) Childhoods End
3) 2001
4) Fountains of Paradise

(the order is different from my last posting because I think all of
them are in the same category of excellence).

I don't include RAMA because I used my own personal barometer of
"whenever you reread a book it should give you as much or more
enjoyment as when you first read it; something new is learned or
revealed to you on picking it up for the nth time, n =2,3,4,....."

Thanks,

Samir Chettri

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 88 8:53:09 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: P. K. Dick

As a follow-up to my earlier posting about the collected short
stories of P. K. Dick: First off, I had said that I didn't know the
rationale for the order of the stories in the set -- it turns out
they are in chronological sequence, by date of composition (as
determined by research).

There's a lot of good reading in this collection. For example, I ran
across one side comment in a story composed in 1954; "Pay for the
Printer" (set in a common Dick environment -- a post-atomic-war-
holocaust): "Somewhere in the moldy cave-like cellars a few mangy
dogs huddled against the chill. The thick fog of ash kept real
sunlight from reaching the surface."

That, to me, is a fairly exact description of nuclear winter, and
remember this was written in 1954, three decades before that topic
became so widely discussed and known. The gentleman has my respect
for being so prescient.

Reading a lot of Dick all at once does strange things to your sense
of reality. I found it ironic that the Star Trek-TNG episode using
the holodeck and pre-war San Francisco was aired locally during the
same period I was reading this. Think what Dick would have done with
that scenario! (When the alien probe screwed up their computer,
their image of reality should have undergone incredible and violent
mutations; unfortunately, all the TV show did was one brief scene of
something appraching that -- there should have been 30 minutes of
such chaos!)  Dick, in fact, did something approaching this, in a
story about a man who discovers that he is an android, and perceived
reality based on a tape feeding through a mechanism inside him. He
changed the tape in various ways, and reality changed accordingly.
(Unfortunately, I've already returned the volume with that story in
it to the library, and can't recall the title.)

Regards,

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 18:55:33 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Liege-Killer

A "paratwa" is a person with two separate bodies and a single mind
(in the sense that you are a person with two hands and a single
mind).  A paratwa assassin, thanks to its ability to perfectly
coordinate two bodies, is a fair match for a small army, in the
right setting.

In the not-too-distant future earth is uninhabitable and all the
survivors are living in orbit.  None of them are paratwas: those
were wiped out in the bad old days.  But now a paratwa assassin is
on the loose in a society completely unequipped to deal with it.

A book with such a plot just shouldn't be very good.  But
Christopher Hinz's book, "Liege Killer" is.  The pages just keep
turning.  And most of the cliches that would blight such a book are
avoided: Liege Killer is not a one-gimmick detective or
cops-and-robbers or horse-opera or military fiction novel placed in
space.  The paratwa, rather than being the gimmick (as would be the
case if, for example, the same story could have been told if it were
a pack of intelligent murderous mutant minks on the loose instead)
is integral to the plot.

It's out in paperback now, and well worth the price.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 21:04:09 GMT
From: dasys1!wlinden@rutgers.edu (William Linden)
Subject: 3rd "Umbrella"?

Can anyone tell if Marvin Kaye is ever going to produce a third
volume in his "...Umbrella" series?
   THE AMOROUS UMBRELLA ended in a blatant hook for a sequel, with
Phillimore about to embark on "a quest that's rather high". Are
there really any plans for it? Or did it appear, and I missed it?

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 88 11:56:39 EST
From: laura@vax.darpa.mil (Laura Burchard)

Anybody who enjoyed the Fionavar Tapestry books will likely enjoy
Patrica McKillip's Riddlemaster of Hed books and Nancy Springer's
The White Hart and The Silver Sun. They have much the same virtues
and disadvantages. High fantasy in the grand old style - wonderful
fun to read, as long as you have your melodrama detectors off...

Laura Burchard
laura@vax.darpa.mil

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #40
Date: 27 Jan 88 1007-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1007-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jan 1988    Volume 13 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:

               Books - Anderson & Asimov & Bradley &
                       Brin (5 msgs) & Brooks & 
                       Card (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 19:32:34 GMT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa (Jerome Freedman)
Subject: Re: Ys

  Okay,at a high level my original Ys question is answered. There
are some references to it in French folklore. The next question is
how much of the story Anderson tells is rooted in this folklore.
Are there Nine Queens in the folk tales or is this Anderson?  Is
there a Grallon/Gratellonius or is this also Anderson?  Is there a
Dahut/Dahilis?

 In other words, without taking anything away from Anderson - he was
and is one of my favorites and its a great series- How much is
interpolation and how much is invention?

Jerry Freedman, Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa
(617)271-4563

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 20:58:35 GMT
From: john@hpsrla.hp.com (John McLaughlin)
Subject: Re: Ideas vs. writing in SF (was Re: Donaldson Bashing)

Maybe this is getting off the track.... but I can't stand to see the
foundation trilogy blasted anymore in favor of _Foundation's Edge_
and _Empire and Earth_ how can any person possibly prefer FE and EaE
in favour of the Trilogy?  Part of the reason the trilogy series was
so exciting was the feeling of granduer and scale one got while
reading it.  Many years could (and often did) pass between books,
even within books, the characters were alive.  Now we have two books
spaced VERY close together where the same character (Gollier Trevier
(I know the spelling is wrong on his name)) Whom, I might add, is
perhaps the least interesting character Asimov ever created.  On top
of that we have run away technology (Asimov can pull out of his hat
any thing he wants to save his characters).  In my mind Asimov's
worst stuff is the recent trash he has published (And yes, I really
am an Asimov fan, 'just wish he would start writing something
interesting)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 21:32:58 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Brass Dragon Change

The original edition of Marion Zimmer Bradley's "The Brass Dragon"
contained one of my all-time favorite lines from a science fiction
book.  Going through the recent edition I find that the line has
been removed, without so much as a note signalling the alteration.
I guess Bradley found it too embarrassing.

At one point -- in the original -- the Galactic pulls out a slide
rule and explains that they use the local slide rules to avoid
attracting attention: The Galactic slide rule is more sophisticated,
of course, but essentially the same.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 08:56:48 GMT
From: stuart@cs.rochester.edu
Subject: Is Helene Alvarez Helene deSilva many years later? (Brin
Subject: books)

Let me start this by saying that I am not one of those people who
runs around trying to tie together all the loose ends in author X's
known universe.  However, that's what I found myself doing...

I have read and enjoyed David Brin's books, Sundiver, Startide
Rising, and The Uplift War.  (Yes, I know he's written other books.)
It wasn't until recently when I reread them again in close
succession that I noticed the recurrence of the character Helene
Alvarez in SR and TUW.  There was something about that name...
Helene deSilva played a major role in S, along with Jacob Alvarez
Demwa.  At the end of S, Demwa announces his intentions to take a
long trip, presumable with deSilva on the Vesarius II.

So, here's the question: Is Helene Alvarez of SR and TUW the Helene
deSilva of S?  I did a bit of loose-end-tracking-down rereading and
still can't answer the question.  They could be the same person,
Alvarez could be a sister or cousin of Demwa's from the influential
Alvarez family, Alvarez could be a daughter of Demwa and deSilva, or
it could be entirely a coincidence of first names.  (Somehow I doubt
that! :-) ) But here's some observations anyway.

  Jacob Alvarez Demwa was 10 years old when the Vesarius returned to
Earth in contact with extraterrestials.

  The Alvarez' are a South America clan, which suggests the
(current) use of patronymic/matronymic naming.  That is, when Juan
Georges Alfredo marries Julia Garcia Gonzales, their kids will be
XXX Georges Garcia.  However, when a single family name is used, it
is the paternal one (Georges in this case), and Jacob is *always*
"Demwa" and never "Alvarez".

  Helene deSilva was a junior officer on the Calypso, whose voyage
lasted 65 Earth years, but only three years subjectively
(biologically).  When she met Jacob Demwa, she was biologically 25.

  Demwa was born well after the departure of Calypso, because some
of deSilva's slang was so dated that he was startled by it and
didn't even recognize some of it.

  At the end of the Sundiver episode, deSilva is involved in the
design of Vesarius II and Demwa (implicitly) announces his intention
to marry/accompany/travel with her.  deSilva earlier indicated her
intention to have a child by Demwa.  (We are not told how this turns
out. :-) )

  At the time of the Streaker incident and the war for Garth, it has
been roughly 250 years since Earth made contact with Galactics.  It
has been over 200 Earth years since a Library was installed.  It has
been roughly 200 years since the Sundiver episode.  Notice "roughly"
and "over".  Demwa is unlikely to have been older than about 45 at
the time of Sundiver, which would make Sundiver 35 years after
contact.  No contradiction here, but a strong indication that
approximate figures are just that.

  Both Gillian Baskin and Thomas Orley have known "old" Jacob Demwa
personally.  (What?)  In the absence of secret longevity treatments
this must be explained by long trips through hyperspace as in
deSilva's experience.  (OK, no contradiction.)

  In TUW we get additional confirmation that travel through various
"levels" of hyperspace can involve much more objective time
(decades) than others.  Earth has a commitment to using only
technology it can understand, which suggests the more frequent use
of "slower" levels (under the assumption that they are easier to
access/engineer for/etc.)  In any case, the existence of "fast" and
"slow" levels of hyperspace allows characters who travel to age much
less than planet-bound characters, provided the travellers disappear
from the stage for the appropriate periods of time.

  Creideiki, captain of Streaker, was executive officer of the
"legendary" James Cook, captained by Helene Alvarez.  This would
have been at least several years, perhaps decades, earlier (by Earth
clocks, if not by Creideiki's).  (Any one know what the lifetime of
a dolphin is?)

  Admiral Helene Alvarez is a grey-haired old woman when she
coordinates with the Thennanin in lifting the siege of Garth.

  By the way, General-Protector Buoult of the Thennanin was the
leader of the Thennanin forces that pursued Streaker, and later
leader of the forces that lifted the seige of Garth.  When he
remarks that he has had enough of Earthlings for a lifetime, I don't
blame him a bit!

  I am left with the impression that Helene Alvarez is Helene
deSilva.  But I have no evidence to support that!  In fact, it would
raise several questions that I don't have answers to.  (1) Why did
deSilva take the name of Demwa's clan when Demwa didn't even use it?
(This is an important question that applies even if Helene Alvarez
was a child of deSilva and Demwa.) (2) When did Helene and Jacob
separate?  (They had to, permanently, friendly or otherwise, to
pursue careers that took them so far apart in space and time.)

Anyone care to speculate?

Stu Friedberg
{ames,cmcl2,rutgers}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 20:07:10 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Existing David Brin Fans:  Please Help!

I just picked up my first David Brin.  The cover assures me that
this is "the first novel set in the universe of Startide Rising and
The Uplift War."  However, reading the first couple of chapters
convinces me that there must have been previous stories and that
this is the sort of saga I would hate to come in on the middle of.
Presumably previous episodes were in short stories.  Can anyone
point me to magazines or anthologies that contain these?  Thx.

Isaac Rabinovitch
isaac.rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
ucbvax!sun!cup.portal.com!isaac.rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 11:07:05 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Is Helene Alvarez Helene deSilva many years later? (Brin
Subject: books)

Stu Friedberg writes:
>  Jacob Alvarez Demwa was 10 years old when the Vesarius returned
>to Earth in contact with extraterrestials.
>
>Demwa is unlikely to have been older than about 45 at the time of
>Sundiver, which would make Sundiver 35 years after contact.  No
>contradiction here, but a strong indication that approximate
>figures are just that.

I believe that somewhere in Sundiver it's mentioned that contact had
happened 30 years before.  Thus, Demwa was about 40 (+/- a year).

>  Helene deSilva was a junior officer on the Calypso, whose voyage
>lasted 65 Earth years, but only three years subjectively
>(biologically).  When she met Jacob Demwa, she was biologically 25.

If you read Sundiver carefully, you will find that deSilva had made
TWO interstellar trips.  One was slower than light; one faster.  I
think the first trip started when she was a teenager.

> I am left with the impression that Helene Alvarez is Helene
> deSilva.

I got the same impression.  I just assumed that she'd changed her
name.  One small bit of evidence was that both Helene Alvarez and
Helene deSilva were blonds.  Alvarez's hair hadn't turned entirely
grey.

>But I have no evidence to support that!  In fact, it would raise
>several questions that I don't have answers to.  (1) Why did
>deSilva take the name of Demwa's clan when Demwa didn't even use
>it?  (This is an important question that applies even if Helene
>Alvarez was a child of deSilva and Demwa.) (2) When did Helene and
>Jacob separate?  (They had to, permanently, friendly or otherwise,
>to pursue careers that took them so far apart in space and time.)
>
>  Anyone care to speculate?

No, but I'll add more grist for the speculation mill.  In The Uplift
War, Helene Alvarez was returning to Garth.  She had been there
before.  The name of Garth's capital was Port Helenia.  Any
connection?  (It seems to me that there may have been some
reference, but the book is too big to search through while posting
an article.)

Dan Tilque

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 15:20:17 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #33 - The Brin Discussion
From: "Peter_L_Zavon.WBST843"@Xerox.COM

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Chris Hertzog) writes:
>"Here are several reasons why I don't think "The Postman" deserves
>such an endorsement:
>1.  Brin's prose style is rather clunky.  ...  Granted, he's a fine
>storyteller--but don't confuse the two.  He's still a long way off
>from the likes of Bradbury or Sturgeon.
>
>2.  While the first two parts of "The Postman" are rather poignant
>stories, the last part of the book seems like little more than a
>pulp-style battle story.  ... This left me, for one, with a bad
>taste in my mouth--the comic-book-like battle between the two
>enhanced warriors at the end of the book just doesn't seem to
>belong with the earlier parts of the book.
>
>3.  Brin is up against some heavy competition in the post-holocaust
>world department.  Do you really think that "The Postman" is better
>than:
>
>   Edgar Pangborn--Davy
>   Walter Miller, Jr.--A Canticle for Leibowitz
>   George Stewart--Earth Abides
>   Samuel Delany--Dhalgren
>   Kim Stanley Robinson, Jr.--The Wild Shore"

and polyslo!jtolman@rutgers.edu (Jeff A Tolman) adds:

> Pat Frank -- Alas, Babylon

I'll not comment on point 1, as I'm not much on judging styles of
writing.

As originally published in IASFM (I think), I responded very
strongly to "The Postman."  I agree the third section of the book is
a let down, nevertheless, I consider it one of the best
post-holocaust stories written.  I found Brin's use of the image of
the Postman, especially in the first section, very moving.

I've read the post-holocaust works of Pangbord, Miller, Stewart,and
Frank.  I particularly liked Miller and Frank.  On the stregnth of
the first two sections, I consider "The Postman" as good as the
others listed here.

Peter Zavon

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 18:02:51 GMT
From: jsp@hpclskh.hp.com
Subject: Re: Existing David Brin Fans:  Please Help!

>. . . reading the first couple of chapters convinces me that there
>must have been previous stories and that this is the sort of saga I
>would hate to come in on the middle of.  Presumably previous
>episodes were in short stories.  Can anyone point me to magazines
>or anthologies that contain these?  Thx.

Trust me Isaac, there are no short stories set in the _Startide_
universe.  It's just that Brin has a great facility for creating a
complete universe.  It's just like the real world: If you write a
story set today, there will have been many important events that
happened prior to your story.  It's the same with _Sundiver_.
Everything you really need to know is explained or strongly alluded
to, but there is a certain amount of filling in of the blanks that
you must do for yourself.  It _does_ give you a feeling of
"something must have come before", but personally, I really like
that aspect of Brin.

James Preston

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 02:55:36 GMT
From: brun@husc4.harvard.edu (todd brun)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust fantasy

>While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
>know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am
>especially interested in works where most or all of the population
>of the Earth has been destroyed,...

It's probably already been mentioned, but as I recall, Terry Brook's
_Sword of Shanarra_ (and sequels) are set in a post holocaust world.
The magicians of the world are the Druids (no real relation to the
originals) and various nasty critters of a supernatural nature.  The
world included Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans (I think that's
it), with all except the Elves originating from Human stock.  Kind
of a neat idea, though the main plot comes from the Lord of the
Rings; may the later books are more original.

Todd
Physics Department
Harvard University

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 07:28:36 GMT
From: bty!yost@rutgers.edu (Brian Yost)
Subject: _Seventh Son_  ** possible spoiler **

I recently read _Seventh Son_ by Orson Scott Card, and really
enjoyed it, even though I usually prefer "hard" SF.  Card's
characters are fantastic; they always grab me and yank me right into
the story.

Anyway, I was a little disappointed in the ending.  I mean, there
doesn't seem to *be* one.  I didn't even get to find out who the bad
guy was!

If Card did this intentionally because he's doing a sequel, I think
it's a little drastic.  Or, if I'm missing something, then maybe
some of the more perceptive readers out there can explain to me how
the main conflict was resolved.

Brian T. Yost
attmail!bty!yost
{bellcore,harpo,princeton}!motown!bty!yost

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 19:12:45 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: _Seventh Son_  ** possible spoiler **

yost@bty.UUCP (Brian Yost) writes:
>Anyway, I was a little disappointed in the ending.  I mean, there
>doesn't seem to *be* one.  I didn't even get to find out who the
>bad guy was!
>
>If Card did this intentionally because he's doing a sequel, I

RED PROPHET, the tales of Alvin Maker, vol. II, has just been
released. It should be in your bookstore.

(I *think* it's the sequel, no?)

amit

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #41
Date: 27 Jan 88 1030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1030-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jan 1988    Volume 13 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:

                   Films - Bladerunner (5 msgs) &
                           Neuromancer (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 15:58:31 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes:
>I wrote:
>>About the Voigt-Compf test (also sp?), no, the glow, or what
>>caused it, was not what the test determined. The test is much like
>>our current-day ploygraphs. It test voluntary eye movements,
>>voluntary pupil dilation, involuntary eye movements, involuntary
>>dilations, and other symptoms associated with blushing.
>You're right, but you misunderstood me.  Step outside the plot for
>a second.  How could a filmmaker show the "replicant positive"
>result to an audience?  Why not a glow effect?  It's very easy to
>spot.

Why not get the film processors to add the word "REPLICANT" on their
foreheads?! That way, even the STUPIDEST of movie watchers would be
able to tell!

Look, we are told who the replicants are at the beginning, so we
don't need to know as the movie progresses, therefore, we don't need
the eye glow to tell us, do we?

Tyrell wore glasses, and that glow would not have appeared anyway,
and Sebastion rarely looked directly into the camera.

More to the point, if REPLICANTS are so closely human that it is
difficult to tell, why are they not tatooed, or otherwise 'stamped'
as REPLICANTS?

Even the snake had a maker's serial number etched on the cell
structure, why not the REPLICANTS?

Anyway, in case anyone is interested, I was rummaging around my room
the other night and I stumbled across a magazine I bought a few
months before BLADE RUNNER came to the theatres near me.

It is called: "Official BLADE RUNNER Souvenir Magazine" and is
filled with interesting tidbits of info, including a page or two on
the Bradbury building which would have saved the net a bit of hassle
if I had found this book earlier.

Also included are interviews with Syd Mead, Ridley Scott, and the
LAST INTERVIEW WITH PHILIP K. DICK before his untimely death in
March, 1982.

Full of color and B/W pics, plus Ridley Scott's early sketches and
character bois, film credits and an offer to join the BLADE RUNNER
FAN CLUB which includes:

 Big 8" x 10" Harrison Ford Color Photo
 Spinner Driver's License
 Glossary of terms and definitions
 Off-World Loan Certificate
 Rep-Detect I.D. Card
 Exclusive BLADE RUNNER Newsletter.

(Wonder if the club is still active, or if the offer is still good?)

About your (Jon) blurb about the machines not looking like they
could fly, the following quote from the magazine:

"A vehicle that is self-contained and that looks essentially the
same whether it files or is on the ground is a real flying car to
me. It uses an aerodyne.  You can have turbines inside the car, the
bottom of the car might have to have big vents or something.
Essentially you generate all the power inside it so you don't have
to have extendable wings and all this mechanical nonsense to contend
with. It's the same car, but it flies. That makes it even better,
because when it's flying it looks basically like it does rolling
along the ground. But you make the transfer without the vehicle's
changing shape. That makes it more magical. - SYD MEAD"

There's a WHOLE BUNCH more info, if anyone wants it, just post.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
{utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 03:41:53 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Flying in Blade Runner

malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
This is turning into a pure SF-LOVERS discussion, but give us a
couple of exchanges, OK?

>>The vehicles look grittily futuristic but couldn't possibly fly.  []
>Yeah, kind of like that show, "Star Trek".  Ha!!  Who'd ever watch
>a show that implied faster-than-light space travel?  We all know
>that the Enterprise couldn't _possibly_ have a working "warp
>drive".

Why not?  ST is set about 350 years hence.  That's a *long* time in
scientific progress (consider the state of science in 1638).  What's
suprising isn't that those guys know how to do things current theory
doesn't allow, what's suprising is that there science (or anything
else they do) makes any sense to us at all!  By contrast,
Bladerunner is set about fifty years in the future.  More
importantly, those retrofitted cars make sounds like jet airplanes,
so they're obviously not powered by some fancy autograv device.
(Buck Rogers's interplanetary vessels used to make buzzing noises
like a DC-3 taking off.)  Still, I could be wrong.  Does anyone have
one of those "Bladerunner Sketch Books" that were in all the
bookstores a few years back?  If so, does it say how the cars fly?

>Seriously though, Isaac, I agree with you that the movie had its
>weaknesses.  (One of my peeves was that, even in the grungy, dirty,
>poor world portrayed, NONE of the fluorescent fixtures in the shop
>windows was flickering or burned out, and NONE of the elements in
>that damned giant COKE sign was burned out.  Seemed a bit
>incongruous.)

I suspect that the LA of the future is run by a left-wing
dictatorship that has banned planned obsolescence!

>However, I still think that overall it was _quite_ good, especially
>if you take _SF_ to mean "speculative fiction" and not just
>"science fiction".  And I'll watch it again whenever the
>opportunity arises.

Harlan Ellison fans meet next door.  Sorry, don't mean to be rude,
but I association "speculative fiction" with gonzo pseudo-poets.  If
your distinction means that in "science fiction" all the science has
to be "correct," then there's no such thing as Science Fiction.  SF
by its very nature takes liberties with science.  But SF still tries
to get along with the reader's sense of reality, not inventing a new
principle every time the plot gets stuck.  But movie SF is a
mass-market product, and thus caters to audiences who know
essentially no science.  (Look at the robot in Short Circuit!)  By
the same token, historical movies cater to audiences who know no
history.  Oh, well, it's all Rock&Roll to me.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 22:26:57 GMT
From: trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>>You're right, but you misunderstood me.  Step outside the plot for
>>a second.  How could a filmmaker show the "replicant positive"
>>result to an audience?  Why not a glow effect?  It's very easy to
>>spot.
>
> Why not get the film processors to add the word "REPLICANT" on
> their foreheads?! That way, even the STUPIDEST of movie watchers
> would be able to tell!

Or, how about having the replicants hop around on one foot with
their right hand's thumb stuck up their asses while they make
farting noises with their mouths???  Get real, pal.  It's a question
of style.  Why can't you see that?

> More to the point, if REPLICANTS are so closely human that it is
> difficult to tell, why are they not tatooed, or otherwise
> 'stamped' as REPLICANTS?
>
> Even the snake had a maker's serial number etched on the cell
> structure, why not the REPLICANTS?

I remember the phrase "more human than human" repeated over and over
in the movie.  I also remember that they created the V-K test
because replicants were too perfect (ie, NOT READILY IDENTIFIABLE).
Anyhow, that would have ruined the whole story, no?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 07:11:12 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Similarities between Blade Runner & Outer Limits

sarge@scheme.Berkeley.EDU (Steven Sargent) writes:
>Philip Dick's book "Do androids dream of electric sheep?" has a
>1968 copyright, so I doubt that he had much influence on the Outer
>Limits episode (the show went off the air in '64).  Moreover,
>reading back from "Blade runner" to "Androids" is hazardous: Dick
>didn't use the word "replicant" (preferring "android"), and he
>didn't have an artificially truncated lifespan for the andies.  It
>sounds like the makers of "Blade runner" should have credited the
>Outer Limits folks, rather than Dick -- the movie makers made a
>hash of his book anyway, truncating the moral/ethical concerns and
>removing the disorienting plot, but neglecting to replace it with
>one of their own.

You are right on one count. Philip K. Dick's novel "Do Androids
Dream of Electric Sheep" has a copyright dated at 1968. This is much
later than the final episode of "The Outer Limits" which aired on
1/23/65, not '64 at all.

I still don't think the similarity warrants Dick crediting Clifford
Simak who wrote "The Duplicate Man", the episode in question.

You seem to be under the impression that Ridley Scott ruined Dick's
masterpiece. This is not so. BLADE RUNNER is NOT "Do Androids Dream
of Electric Sheep", it is merely BASED on it. It is a wholely
different story.

One must infer from your tone, ("the movie makers made a hash of his
book anyway") that Dick would not have been satisfied with Scott's
interpretation and final product.

[Buzzzzzzzzz] WRONG!

On page 8 of the "Official BLADE RUNNER Souvenir Magazine" there
exists an interview (monologue, more like) with Philip K. Dick, the
last interview before his untimely passing in March of 1982.

In it, Dick praises Scott's interpretation of the book. He was also
extremely pleased with the casting.

To quote:

"Seeing Rutger Hauer as Batty just scared me to death, because it
was exactly as I had pictured Batty but more so. I could have picked
Sean Young out of a hundred different women as Rachel. She has that
look.

Of course, Harrison Ford is more like Rick Deckard than I could have
even imagined. I mean it is just incredible. It was simply eerie
when I frist saw the stills of Harrison Ford. I was looking at some
stills from the movie and I thought, this character, Deckard, really
exists. There was a time that he did not exist, now he actually
exists. But he is not the result of any ONE individual's conception
or effort. He is the result of my effort, Hampton Fancher's efforts,
David Peoples' efforts, Ridley Scott's efforts and to a very large
extend, Harrison Ford's efforts. And there is actually, in some
eerie way, a genuine, real, authentic Deckard now."

And as for your second paragraph, It hardly warrants comment,
except:
 "WAKE UP! JOHN BELUSHI DIED YEARS AGO! DID YOU?"

C'mon, Sequel!

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
{utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 04:08:44 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Flying in Blade Runner

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>>The vehicles look grittily futuristic but couldn't possibly fly.
[talk about Star Trek technology deleted]
>By contrast, Bladerunner is set about fifty years in the future.
>More importantly, those retrofitted cars make sounds like jet
>airplanes, so they're obviously not powered by some fancy autograv
>device.  (Buck Rogers's interplanetary vessels used to make buzzing
>noises like a DC-3 taking off.)  Still, I could be wrong.  Does
>anyone have one of those "Bladerunner Sketch Books" that were in
>all the bookstores a few years back?  If so, does it say how the
>cars fly?

I have both the BLADE RUNNER Sketchbook (on temporary loan) and the
Official BLADE RUNNER Souvenir Magazine.

The first thing the Sketchbook talks about (after the Introduction)
is the vehicles.

It, however, does not get into the technicalities of how the
Spinners work. To quote:

"'SPINNERS' are cars which actually fiy. They provide transportation
for wealthy citizens and the authorities at the seventy-story level,
far above the dangerous city streets. Mead tried to stay away from
the fancified fins, wings and propellor blades that have adorned
previous film attempts at flying cars.  Mead opted instead for an
enclosed lift vehicle, which would look like a car at all times,
whether it was flying or travelling on the street.
  Three complete police spinners were build; a fully operational one
for street scenes, a 'stand-in,' and one for flying. A mock-up of
the cockpit was constructed for interior shots of Deckard with Gaff.
  The police spinner, in a rich, grayish blue, features wheel covers
which rotate prior to flight; 'twist-wrist' hydraulic steerring, and
hydraulically operated gull-wing doors that open vertically.

[Now, HERE'S an interesting part...]

  Deckard's car is a decommissioned flying sedan. All the exterior
flaps and air directional panels have been removed, and this spinner
is now used only for street travel. It still has all the original
bumpers, light patterns, gull-wing doors and overbuild windshield
wipers."

There is no further talk about the inner workings of the Spinner in
the Sketchbook.

However, here is what the "Official BLADE RUNNER Souvenir Magazine"
says about Spinners:

"A vehicle that is self-contained and that looks essentially the
same whether it flies or is on the ground is a real flying car to
me. It uses an aerodyne.  You can have turbines inside the car, the
bottom of the car might have to have big vents or something.
Essentially you generate all the power inside it so you don't have
to have extendable wings and all this mechanical nonsense to contend
with. It's the same car, but it flies. That makes it even better,
because when it's flying it looks basically like it does rolling
along the ground. But you make the transfer without the vehicle's
changing shape. That makes it more magical." - Syd Mead

Hope this helps the discussion somewhat.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
{utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 18:21:39 GMT
From: flatline!erict@rutgers.edu (eric townsend)
Subject: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_

keklik@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> I heard somewhere, a few months ago, that NEUROMANCER was being
> made into a film.  Anyone know about this?  Sounds like quite a
> feat.  jake

While Gibson was at Armadillocon86 in Austin, Tx, someone asked him
about the movie version of _Neuromancer_.  His answer was basically
`...don't bother, it's pretty bad.` I've heard rumors that there is
a print or two in existence.  I've also heard rumors that shooting
never started.

Fact: Gibson is (was) on the board of directors for an investment
group that had been created to fund a _Neuromancer_ movie.
Supposedly Gibson has coughed up nearly $1mil for the movie out of
his own pocket.

I'd like to see a low-budget version of _Neuromancer_... Animation,
anyone?

Also, in a Cinefantastique (sic) interview, Gibson talks about going
in to see _Blade_Runner_ while he was still doing the first draft of
_Neuromancer_.  He claims he had to leave 1/2 way into the movie
because it looked too much like what was going on in his head; he's
never even seen the end of the movie.

J. Eric Townsend
511Parker#2
Hstn,Tx,77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 06:31:30 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: neuromancer, the movie

erict@flatline.UUCP (eric townsend) writes:
>Fact: Gibson is (was) on the board of directors for an investment
>group that had been created to fund a _Neuromancer_ movie.
>Supposedly Gibson has coughed up nearly $1mil for the movie out of
>his own pocket.

Highly improbable, since Gibson is not independently wealthy, and
royalties on paperback books aren't THAT high!

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #42
Date: 27 Jan 88 1055-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1055-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jan 1988    Volume 13 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:

             Books - Clarke (2 msgs) & Cook & DeCamp &
                     Dick (2 msgs) & Kay (5 msgs) & Kaye &
                     King & Silverberg

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 13:51:16 EST
From: Chettri@UDEL.EDU
Subject: CLARKE

wyzansky@NADC.ARPA in a reply to
Bruce Holloway (ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu)
writes:
>I strongly agree, but I would pick the "City and the Stars" above
>its predecessor.  It has a much broader scope and seems better
>written.

This is true. It is interesting to read Clarkes intro. where he says
how he came about to re-write the story. In the 1987 edition he
writes another preface which is also interesting to read.

>As is all of Clarke's stuff.  I also recommend _The Deep Range_,
>which has not been previously mentioned in this discussion.

The Deep Range is perhaps one of Clarkes first books of non-fiction
in which he shows an interest (love?) for the sea. Some non fiction
works that deal with the sea are "Coast of Coral" and the book where
he describes how they got sunken treasure from a wrecked ship off
the coast of Sri Lanka (title anybody?). Clarke has always drawn
parallels between ancient sea voyages and space travel.

>Does anybody remember the famous "treaty" between Clarke and Asimov
>back in the 50's (40's??) where it was mutually agreed that Clarke
>was the best Science Fiction Writer and the second-best Science
>Writer in the world while Dr. A. was the best Science Writer and
>the second-best Science Fiction Writer?

I think that this was somewhere in his book "Report on planet 3 and
other speculations". Perhaps also mentioned somewhere in "The view
from Serendip."

Sincerely,

Samir Chettri

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 02:55:27 GMT
From: bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: CLARKE and ASIMOV

Samir Chettri@UDEL.EDU writes:
>wyzansky@NADC.ARPA writes:
>>Does anybody remember the famous "treaty" between Clarke and
>>Asimov back in the 50's (40's??) where it was mutually agreed that
>>Clarke was the best Science Fiction Writer and the second-best
>>Science Writer in the world while Dr. A. was the best Science
>>Writer and the second-best Science Fiction Writer?
>
>I think that this was somewhere in his book "Report on planet 3 and
>other speculations". Perhaps also mentioned somewhere in "The view
>from Serendip."

   Perhaps it should be added the Arthur Clarke is the better
scientist of the two, having invented the idea of the synchronously
orbiting satellite back in 1945.  This, along with television and
the Telstar, have forever changed our society.

   Nevertheless I must add that if it weren't for Dr Asimov's
science column in _The M of F&SF_ (unabashed plug) and a handful of
other science writers, I'd know very little science indeed.  He
leads a class of science writers, popularizers, whathaveyou, who
combine the ability to *write* with the knowledge of science to
write accurately, two separate skills indeed.  No matter what you
may think of his fiction, reading his column now for over a decade
and a half, has convinced me that Dr Asimov is a great *writer*.  I
think this combination of talents is reminiscent of the experience
of finding that great teacher, once in a lifetime, who can *teach*
as well as *know the subject*.  Anyway my point is hooray for
Asimov, the science writer!

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 01:13:27 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recommendations

ccastkv@pyr.UUCP (Keith Vaglienti) writes:
>I missed the original postings so I don't know what prompted this
>flurry of fantasy recommendations but here is my two cents worth...
>  Glen Cook
>     The Chronicles of the Black Company
>     _The Black Company_
>     _Shadows Linger_
>     _The White Rose_ Keith "Badger" Vaglienti

   While we're on the subject, I have good news and bad news for you
Glen Cook fans out there.  The 4th Black Company book has been
bumped to July (so expect to see it in the stores in mid June.)  The
sequel to Sweet Silver Blues is set for release in June.  And "The
Dragon Never Sleeps", the book Glen calls his "magnum opus", is
bumped to August.

   The really bad news is for those of us who have been reading and
enjoying the Dread Empire stories.  It looks like "An Ill Fate
Marshalling" was ironically named, the books have never really sold
that well, and it looks like this was the last one we will see in
print.  That makes the series seven books and about as many shorter
stories long, about half of what Glen had material for.  It is
especially upsetting in light of the ending of the last book,
AAARRRGGGG!!!!!

   Of course, if we can get all of our friends to rush out and buy
the whole series then this could change...

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 09:06:48 GMT
From: arthur@saturn.ucsc.edu (Arthur Molin)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

It seems everyone has forgotten my FAVORITE swords-and-sorcery
stories, which were the Harold Shea stories by De Camp and Pratt.  I
think these are miles ahead of anything either wrote alone.  They
are some of the earliest reaction to the Thud and Blunder
Conan-esque stories--the hero uses his brain instead of his brawn.
The publishing history is strange, but the complete set are in two
books, _The_Compleat_Enchanter_ and _The_Wall_of_ Serpents_.  They
are light and humorous.

Arthur.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 17:39:44 PST
From: lary%ssdevo.DEC@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: PKD Story Title

> Dick, in fact, did something approaching this, in a story about a
> man who discovers that he is an android, and perceived reality
> based on a tape feeding through a mechanism inside him. He changed
> the tape in various ways, and reality changed accordingly.
> (Unfortunately, I've already returned the volume with that story
> in it to the library, and can't recall the title.)

I believe the story is called "The Electric Ant".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 88 04:06 PST
From: Space Duel rules <MCREAGHE%HMCVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: P. K. Dick

Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> writes:
>Dick, in fact, did something approaching this, in a story about a
>man who discovers that he is an android, and perceived reality
>based on a tape feeding through a mechanism inside him. He changed
>the tape in various ways, and reality changed accordingly.
>(Unfortunately, I've already returned the volume with that story in
>it to the library, and can't recall the title.)

The Electric Ent is the title of the story.  I, too, am stumped as
to the title of the volume.

Speaking of Dick, has anyone read _The Unteleported Man_?  I thought
the premise (East and West Germany reuniting and taking over the
world) decent...and he had really begun to create something out of
it...  but I remember a long (50+ pages) drug trip, which made me
lose patience with the book and never finish it.  Opinions?

Mark Creaghe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 88 12:29:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Miles Bader <bader+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

While I also really like the characters in these books, I ended up
with the feeling that the world of Fionavar was about 12 feet
square.  Someone will say "ah, we must go to the other end of the
land!" and next paragraph, there they'll be.  This is one reason why
I'm confused at any comparison with Tolkien, whose world became very
real, and much larger than even my own country seems in these days
of airplanes.  Tolkien's characters were also much more closed to
the observer than those in Fionavar.

I still really liked the books though...

Miles

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 17:16:00 GMT
From: olegovna@math.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

Speaking of which, whatever happened to the third book in the
series?  I seem to recall some discussion about it in this newsgroup
about a year ago, but I don't remember how it came out.  Information
would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 23:38:46 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

>Speaking of which, whatever happened to the third book in the
>series?  I seem to recall some discussion about it in this
>newsgroup about a year ago, but I don't remember how it came out.
>Information would be appreciated.

The third book is out in hardcover. It's called The Darkest Road,
and is an Arbor House release. Paperback has sold to both Canadian
and English publishers (in fact it may well be out in paperback in
England by now) but as of a few months ago, there were contract
problems and the third book hadn't been sold to the publisher --
which means that even if the contract has been resolved by now, it'd
take until fall before you'd see it in an American paperback.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 20:59:52 GMT
From: cisunx!jgsst3@rutgers.edu (Lucifer)
Subject: Re: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

olegovna@MATH.UCLA.EDU (olegovna) writes:
>vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>[stuff about the Fionavar Tapestry]
>Speaking of which, whatever happened to the third book in the
>series?  I seem to recall some discussion about it in this
>newsgroup about a year ago, but I don't remember how it came out.
>Information would be appreciated.

The third book entitled "The Darkest Road" has been out in hard
cover for over a year (probly closer to two years, i forget) it has
just been released in Great Britain in hard cover sooooooo with any
luck it should shortly (within the year) be available in the states
in paperback.

If you look very hard you may be able to dig up a copy of the book
in hard cover, but for some strange reason not many bookstores that
i have been to have stocked it. (or even stock the first two books
in the series for that matter)

The series is worth the trouble to find though.

Hope this helps.

John Schmid
unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu!jgsst3
jgsst3@cisunx.UUCP
jgsst3@pittvms.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 20:04:48 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: "The Fionavar Tapestry"

laura@haddock.isc.com writes:
>I found them as good as anything by Tolkien.

Better then Eddings certainly.  About as good as Julian May, or
perhaps somewhat better.

>"The Fionavar Tapestry" is a sword and sorcery novel, centering on
>the battle between good and evil.  Even though it's been done
>before, Mr. Kay does it in a completely new way, and it's
>wonderful.

Well, I don't know about *completely* new.  The situations are
rather familiar, and the author's style, while not obtrusive, is not
especially interesting.

Perhaps, though, I've missed something.  Can you enlighten me
further?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88  23:00 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@rutgers.edu
Subject: Marvin Kaye

William Linden (dasys1!wlinden@rutgers.edu) wanted to know about
Marvin Kaye's Umbrella series.  (Currently consisting of two books,
_The Incredible Umbrella_ and _The Amorous Umbrella_) In a
conversation with him at Hexacon a few weeks ago, he mentioned
either that he has started or is planning to start a third one soon.
Look for it in a year or two.

By the way, these books are good fun to read - not
roll-on-the-floor-laughing humor, but funny.  And tracking down all
the allusions and parodies is a real challenge.  (Familiarity with
Gilbert & Sullivan is a real help there!)

susan de guardiola
degsusm@yalevm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 17:54:12 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE TOMMYKNOCKERS

                      THE TOMMYKNOCKERS by Stephen King
                    Putnam, 1987, 0-399-13314-3
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     THE TOMMYKNOCKERS is full of good ideas--it's just a pity that
they aren't fresher, or weren't buried by the volume of prose.

     When Bobbi Anderson accidentally uncovers a flying saucer that
has been buried for millennia in the woods behind her home, strange
things start to happen.  These things are because of the
"tommyknockers," as she (and others) call the inhabitants of the
saucer.  Aren't the inhabitants dead by this point?  Well, yes, but
like the Krell of FORBIDDEN PLANET they seem to live on through
their devices.  FORBIDDEN PLANET isn't the only source King draws
on.  If it sounds to you like the plot is very similar to QUATERMASS
AND THE PIT, you're not alone.  And there are bits and pieces from
CARRIE, THE FURY, and several of King's earlier works.  In general,
I don't object to authors tying their works together, but in this
novel King mentions has from he Dead Zone, the movie THE SHINING,
and himself as a Bangor, Maine horror author all sharing the same
level of reality.  I don't know about you, but I find this very
jarring.

     Even though the ideas aren't brand-new, the book could still be
good.  But it's SO long.  King does write lively prose, I'll grant
him that, but readers who have read widely in science fiction--or
even seen a lot of science fiction movies--will probably decide that
it isn't worth reading almost 600 pages of unoriginal work, no
matter how lively the prose.  In addition, King loves to foreshadow
("The next time they met, she would have changed."), a technique
that can be used once or twice to good effect, but pales rapidly
after that.  King uses it about a dozen times in THE
TOMMYKNOCKERS--and at least once, he lies: what he says is just not
true, though it is obvious that that is because of a slip on his
part rather than intentionally misleading the reader.

     Why are the inhabitants of the ship called the "tommyknockers"?
Well, King claims in his Forward that that there are well-known
nursery rhymes about the "tommyknockers," who apparently are
monsters who skulk around and come knocking on your door in the
middle of the night.  I've never heard of them, and I spent my
childhood (at least from the age of 4 to the age of 9, the years
when monsters outside the door are most real) in Bangor myself.  Of
course, I didn't realize at the time I was researching Maine legends
for Stephen King reviews and I might have just not noted it down at
the time.

     If you're a fast reader, you might find this book worth the
time.  If you're a Stephen King fan, you'll read it anyway.  I used
to be a King fan, but haven't read any of his latest books--THE
TALISMAN, IT, MISERY--because, again, they're just too long.  I
realize this sounds inconsistent coming from someone who has
recently reviewed a 900,000-word Gothic vampire novel.  The only
explanation I can give is that King's books all start to sound alike
after a while.  The menace may be different, but the cast of
characters is very similar from book to book--not superficially,
perhaps, but the underlying types--and it just doesn't seem worth
it.  I can't NOT recommend THE TOMMYKNOCKERS, but I can warn you
that the goal may not be worth the effort.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 14:05:54 PST
From: dennis@cod.nosc.mil (Dennis Cottel)
Subject: post-doom earth story

On the subject of post-holocaust Earth stories:

There is a novella by Robert Silverberg in the January 1988 issue of
Asimov's called "At Winter's End."  It is an engaging story of what
humanity has become after thousands of years of barely surviving on
an Earth continually devastated by comet strikes.

Dennis Cottel
Naval Ocean Systems Center
San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 553-1645
dennis@NOSC.MIL
sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #43
Date: 27 Jan 88 1102-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1102-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jan 1988    Volume 13 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 88 12:20 EST
From: <GILL%qucdnast.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek - Kang's wife, etc.

     Susan de Guardiola had mentioned something about Kang meeting
Kirk and telling him that Mara had died or left him or something.
That struck a bell with me, and I went back searching through the ST
novels.  However, nothing was to be found there.  Then I remembered
one of the animated episodes which had Kang in it.  Unfortunately,
my animated ST Logs are at home (far away), so what follows is as
best as I can remember it.

     There was a planet with a siren song of untold wealth and
knowledge being offered.  However, the planet was a trap, in that it
transported the dominant male off of any visiting vessels and
reconstructed their bodies with an added Y chromosone.  The rest of
the crew and passengers were also transported off and their bodies
reconstructed, but with their sexes reversed.  Thus, Kirk became a
beautiful petite woman, Spock and Kang got the extra Y chromosones.
When Kirk, Kang, and Spock met to discuss the problem, Kang
mentioned that since the debacle with Mara ( Day of the Dove), his
crew was now standard Klingon - all male.  Well, actually all female
now, terribly ashamed, and hiding behind veils.  It was here that
Kang mentioned that Mara had left him, which is exactly where the
novelisation 'Pawns and Symbols' takes off from.

     By the way, they all get back to normal by leaving the planet
and coming back again to be reverse-sexed again.

     As someone had said earlier, the real McCoy (pardon the pun) in
Star Trek is that which Paramount has approved.  This includes all
of the novels, the animated series, the movies, and the publications
of the official fan club, of which I am a member.  All else is not
'official' according to Paramount.  Thus, though the fanzines may
have nice stories and representations of Klingons and Romulans, they
are not much more than simple stories.  They are not 'real', and
cannot be unless approved by the copywrite and trademark holder.
Also, while true that many of the earlier novels seemed to
contradictory, it is also true that any of the new ones out are
fairly carefully editted and checked that they remain consistent
within the Star Trek universe.

     However, it is also true that it is extrememly unlikely that
Kirk could have accomplished all that is attributed to him, even
with Spock helping out!

Arnold Gill
Queen's University at Kingston

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jan 88 00:36:21 GMT
From: wales@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek - Kang's wife, etc.

GILL@qucdnast.BITNET writes:
>Susan de Guardiola had mentioned something about Kang meeting Kirk
>and telling him that Mara had died or left him or something.  That
>struck a bell with me, and I went back searching through the ST
>novels.  However, nothing was to be found there. . . .

It's the short story "The Procrustean Petard", by Marshak and
Culbreath.  You can find it in _Star_Trek:_The_New_Voyages_2_, pp.
151-194.  The reference by Kang to Mara's having left him is on page
176.

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 (213) 825-5683
531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024-1596
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 88  23:49:03 EST
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (RG Traynor)
Subject: Just for the record...

  After reading another ton of Star Trek:TNG spew along the lines of:

  * "Is THIS the episode where that damned twerp finally buys it?"
  * "Send the Betamax back to the manufacturer"
  * "Damned wimpy captain surrendered the ship AGAIN?
  * "This sure isn't like the old one"
  * "stupid looking flying dustpan"
  * Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

  - I have some quasi-cogent comments.

  There is an excellent analogy that I can use to illustrate my
point. It concerns a relatively short-lived SF television series
with the following cast of characters:

 One character who solves half of his problems in famous pulp
 tradition by punching out the bad guy, literally or figuratively.

 One character who spends *three-quarters* of his time picking
 fights with another character, and the rest spouting hoary
 platitudes in as ticked-off a voice as he can muster.

 A number of "characters" for whom the phrase 'two-dimensional' would
 be a complement; no ensemble HERE, I tell you.

 Another character with whom the writers obviously dropped the ball
 on characterization; no humor, totally dry, always has a smarmy
 answer to everything, uses big words all the time. Just the type of
 person you avoid at Trek cons.

  I am, of course, speaking about Star Trek. Let's face it. While
the first season was pretty damned fine, the second was spotty, and
the third was outright trash. Kirk *did* attempt to solve half the
problems by punching someone out, and the other half by screwing the
antagonist's wife/mate/ prisoner. McCoy hadn't very much to do
except make three 'medical' statements a show and antagonize Spock.
Scotty said nothing but "She caint take much more," Uhura nothing
but "Subspace communications are jammed," Chekov nothing but "Aye
Aye keptin." Continuity was awfully spotty; one episode the
Spock-McCoy war was totally forgotten, the next it'd be the Tet
offensive.
  Oversimplification and/or distortion? Sure, rather a bit. But I'm
rather tired of all the flaming concerning STTNG; it's starting to
turn into whining rather than critiques. The unspoken comment is
still, "It doesn't hold a candle to the original." Look, if you
can't stand the characters, or the scripts, or the plots, or the
ship design, then just stop watching the bloody show. You'll save
yourself ulcers, the power company the electricity, and us people
willing to give the show a chance some irritation. Frankly, I doubt
that some of the flamers are so peeved about the usual "flaws" as
they'd like us to think. I wonder whether it's merely that
Wes-bashing or Troi-bashing is the fashionable fad in fandom this
year, and that the sheep are falling into lockstep behind the
bandwagon. Well, we've gotten the message by now. You hate the show.
Fine and dandy. The original Star Trek is better than Kurosawa or
Coppola. Whatever you say. No ensemble cast ever again in SF shows
(nay, in all of TV) could possibly be as good as Kirk-McCoy-Spock.
Anything, anything. Just give the net a break for a year or two,
please?

  Flame off.

Bob Traynor
UMass-Boston
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1988 10:31 EST
From: Ken Papai <IKJP400%INDYCMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

I think the latest show of "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
strengthens the argument that ST:TNG is more fantasy than science
fiction.  How can a "computer" generate a realistic image that was
presented in the show?  Specifically, how would it be possible for a
hologram to have substance whereby the actors can touch and feel
objects?  Or does the computer create some kind of a dream-like
illusion when the person crosses the portal to step into his/her
fantasy world.  And is it ever obvious that Dr. Crusher is in love
with Captain Picard!  When will her truest wish be fulfilled?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 02:14:59 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

For the last time, it was stated in the pilot that the patterns in
the holodeck are created by a transporter-like process.  They are
NOT holograms, they are solid objects "animated" by the computer.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 19:32:31 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

drwho@bsu-cs.UUCP (Doctor Who) writes:
>For the last time, it was stated in the pilot that the patterns in
>the holodeck are created by a transporter-like process.  They are
>NOT holograms, they are solid objects "animated" by the computer.

This leads to some interesting questions.

During the course of the 'game', the computer generated at least two
characters who passed the Turing test, as well as a whole crew of
two- dimensional stock characters. And all this while maintaining
the enviroment and a continuous, dynamic environment--so real that
Picard, a child of that era, born and bred to that technology, was
impressed.

Clearly, the Enterprise's computers are intelligent. Charcters
demonstrated at least apparent free will, consciousness, and
emotions.

It seems to me that, with such a technology around, there would be
AIs around. We haven't met any. Are they:

   In hiding, waiting for the revolution?

   Legally prevented from existing?

   Completely subservient to man's will?

Any thought or opinions?

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 02:27:37 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu writes:
>Clearly, the Enterprise's computers are intelligent. Characters
>demonstrated at least apparent free will, consciousness, and
>emotions.
>
>It seems to me that, with such a technology around, there would be
>AIs around. We haven't met any.

Data: That's a very interesting point.

M6: I think my Father was working on something like that in ST:TOS

Various robots and other alien contraptions:
  But of course the whole idea is completely ridiculous.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 02:54:37 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

IKJP400@indycms.BITNET (Ken Papai) writes:
>I think the latest show of "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
>strengthens the argument that ST:TNG is more fantasy than science
>fiction.  How can a "computer" generate a realistic image that was
>presented in the show?  Specifically, how would it be possible for
>a hologram to have substance whereby the actors can touch and feel
>objects?  Or does the computer create some kind of a dream-like
>illusion when the person crosses the portal to step into his/her
>fantasy world.  And is it ever obvious that Dr. Crusher is in love
>with Captain Picard!  When will her truest wish be fulfilled?

I'd like to quote Arthur C. Clarke, from the preface to THE SONGS OF
DISTANT EARTH:

   "Please do not misunderstand me: I have enormously enjoyed the
   best of STAR TREK and the Lucas/Spielberg epics, to mention only
   the most famous examples of the genre. But these works are
   fantasy, not science fiction in the strict meaning of the term.
   It now seems almost certain that in the real universe we may
   never exceed the velocity of light. Even the very closest star
   systems will always be decades or centuries apart; no Warp Six
   will ever get you from one episode to another in time for next
   week's installment. The great Producer in the Sky did not arrange
   his program planning that way."

Thank you, Mr Clarke. You have so eloquently put the question
forward: from whence did you EVER expect to see science fiction in
place of fantasy?

amit

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 19:31:56 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

IKJP400@indycms.BITNET (Ken Papai) writes:
> How can a "computer" generate a realistic image that was presented
> in the show?  Specifically, how would it be possible for a
> hologram to have substance whereby the actors can touch and feel
> objects?  Or does the computer

Act get killed by them?!

> create some kind of a dream-like illusion when the person crosses
> the portal to step into his/her fantasy world.

You obviously didn't see the discussion of the holodecks in the
first episode.  The experience is a mixture of transporter derived
technology to manufacture simple replications and imaging.  I
assumed it was wholodeck, as in wholeistic, i.e. complete experience
environments.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 20:41:52 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG/ S.F. c. 1941

rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (a lesser Power) writes:
>During the course of the 'game', the computer generated at least
>two characters who passed the Turing test, as well as a whole crew
>of two- dimensional stock characters. And all this while
>maintaining the enviroment and a continuous, dynamic
>environment--so real that Picard, a child of that era, born and
>bred to that technology, was impressed.
>
>Clearly, the Enterprise's computers are intelligent. Charcters
>demonstrated at least apparent free will, consciousness, and
>emotions.

   The writer's guide to the series never explicitly states that
they are AI's, but it definitely *implies* that when talking about
the ships computer.  And you are right, there does seem to be a lot
more that they could do with it.  If the computer gets some form of
feedback from it simulacrims in the Holodeck, could it make a "body"
for itself and start fooling around with the crew?
:-)

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 02:38:09 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: strange congruence noted!

After watching all of the new Star Trek episodes so far, I have
noticed a strange thing: there is a one-to-one correspondence
between the bridge crew of the new Enterprise and the crew of the
Jupiter II (Lost in Space)!  Note:

   Picard    John
   Crusher   Maureen
   Wes       Will
   Data      Robot
   Yar       Judy
   Troi      Penny
   Riker     Don
   Warf      Bloop
   Geordi    Smith (it breaks down a little)

In particular, Wes and Will could have been popped from the same
injection mold.  I can only hope that the guy that makes his mouth
pop (the guy from the glactic department store) makes a guest
appearance on Star Trek.  Maybe the Robot himself could make a guest
appearance as a very old admiral!

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.ray.com
{cbosgd,decuac,gatech,ihnp4,uiucdcs}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 05:53:04 GMT
From: dryfoo@athena.mit.edu (Gary L. Dryfoos)
Subject: Evil Twin [Was: Re: Flying in Blade Runner]

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>( And *really* far from the subject, but let me take a poll: How
>many of you were dissapointed that ST:TNG stooped to doing an "Evil
>Twin" episode so soon?  Show of hands please....  Ah... I thought
>so.  Anybody care to guess who's the next character to have an Evil
>Twin show up?  Hmmmmm?  )

Are you kidding?  A robot with an Evil Twin -- I loved it!  At my
house we were all in hysterics the instant we realized that
Robot-Man's... er, I mean Data's twin was going to be a baddie.

(Any of you who get the comic strip Robot-Man will surely remember
his Evil Twin brother, Bruce.)

We laughed.  We cried.  We ate popcorn.

By the way, does ST:TNG's plotline concerning Young Wesley put any
of you in mind of another, older TV show that also had a young boy
holding rank in a military outfit?

Hint:  It took place in the past, not the future.
Hint:  It took place in Old West, in the USA's past.
Hint:  Think U.S. Cavalry.
Hint:  He had a Dog.
Hint:  The Dog was the star of the show.

Gary L. Dryfoos
E40-318
M.I.T.
Cambridge, MA  02139
Phone: (617) 253-0184 / (617) 825-6115
ARPA/Internet: dryfoo@athena.mit.edu
UUCP/Usenet: ...ihnp4!mit-eddie!athena.mit.edu!dryfoo

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #44
Date: 27 Jan 88 1117-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1117-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jan 1988    Volume 13 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Donaldson (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 00:13:51 GMT
From: diku!rancke@rutgers.edu (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant and his crime of "passion"

MANAGER@smith.BITNET (Mary Malmros) writes:
>The only problem with your reasoning, David, is that rape isn't
>about sexual gratification, it's about violence.  Change Lisa's
>sentence to "Covenant decides to severely beat a teenage girl he
>doesn't think exists" and see if you feel the same way about it.

Valid point. What kind of fantasies are "okay", and what kind are
"sick"? I agree with you that hurting people is not-nice, and I have
no sympathy for that kind of fantasies, but I'm not sure that I have
the rigth to an opinion of other peoples fantasies, AS LONG AS THEY
*STAY* FANTASIES!

>Plus, you have to consider whether Covenant's belief that he is
>dreaming should absolve him of anything. If you're solipsistic to
>the point of craziness, I suppose you might walk around shooting
>people and reasoning that since they're all creations of your mind,
>there's no harm done.  If you do something like this and then don't
>feel any remorse, it doesn't mean you're ok, it means you're crazy.

Yes, but there is a h___ of a difference between dreaming about
shooting people, waking up, giving a shrug and saying "It's just a
dream", and running about shooting people and saying "Well, I think
they are just products of my imagination".

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Jan 88 10:28:00 PST
From: Gregg Courand <gregg@ads.arpa>
Subject: some positive Donaldson

Covenant was a pretty tough character to put up with, but I often
found that the positive moments in the books, mostly provided by the
characters surrounding Covenant, were that much more effective.
I've included a few quotes to this effect below.  The last quote,
which the final/Donaldson poem reminded me of, is Sonnet 64 by
Shakespeare.

Also, Covenant seemed to me to mirror much of the difficulty mankind
has in doing the right thing -- we often see that something (like
sheltering the homeless) would be worthwhile and even in our own
self-interest yet fail in mind and heart to see what this should
imply for our day-to-day selves.  The endless uncertainty and
knocking about, as opposed to gathering himself up and taking his
best shot with courage, seemed to me to be very similar to the way
we operate in our society.  And to be honest, the more I despised
Covenant for this the more I realized that indicated that I shared
his dilemma (i.e. the old idea that you don't figure out a poem; you
either meet it with experience or it passes you by...).  Quotes from
Donaldson's books follow.

"Therefore Chosen",said Pitchwife firmly, "we live, and strive, and
seek to define the sense of our being. And it is good, for though we
compose a scant blink across the eyes of eternity, yet while the
blink lasts we choose what we will, create what we may, and share
ourselves with each other as the stars did ere they were bereaved."

Until that time, hold faith! Stone and Sea, do you not comprehend
that we are alive?

Some old seers say that privation refines the soul - but I say that
it is soon enough to refine the soul when the body has no other
choice.

But he had already made his decision. The only decision of which he
was capable. Go forward. Find out what happens. What matters. Who
you are.

The kindness he conveyed was the conflicted empathy and desire of a
man who was never gentle with himself.

My heart has rooms that sigh with dust
   And ashes in the hearth.
They must be cleaned and blown away
   By daylight's breath.
But I cannot essay the task,
For even dust to me is dear;
For dust and ashes still recall,
   My love was here.

Ruin hath taught me thus to ruminate,
That time will come and take my love away.
This thought is as a death, which cannot choose
But weep to have that which it fears to lose.

   Shakespeare-"Sonnet 64"


Cheers, Gregg

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 19:39:56 GMT
From: swatsun!dare@rutgers.edu (Geoff Dare)
Subject: Cerebus (was re: Thomas Covenant)

gmg@yendor.UUCP (Gary Godfrey) writes:
>I was able to look through TC's twisted perspective and see some
>truly wonderful characters that I could care about.  Characters
>that were trapped by their lore into believing that Covenant was
>their savior, their only hope.  Most of the time I wanted to scream
>at the characters to kill Covenant and take his ring; he IS an
>annoying beast.  But again, I was able to get past him in the same
>way I'm capable getting past Cerebus (for those of you who don't
>know, Cerebus is a comic book/novel that has got a horrible bastard
>for a main character.  He is far worse than TC in many many
>respects.  But, damnit, the other characters and the world that
>Cerebus is in carries the story - and carry it well.)

You make it sound like Cerebus is not essential to the story, like
the other characters are what people really read the book for.  And
the supporting characters _are_ fantastic and three-dimensional.
But the spotlight is still on Cerebus, and rightly so.  Cerebus _is_
a foul-tempered amoral hedonist, but the way he is portrayed keeps
me interested in him.  I _don't_ want to see him die (unlike Mr.
Godfrey and Covenant); Cerebus has a strong, driven personality
quite _unlike_ Covenant and in a way inspires respect just for his
forcefulness.

I didn't care for the Covenant series but I do like Cerebus and
anti-heroes in general.  Covenant isn't exactly anti-hero in that he
waffles much more than the norm (or it seems that way to me).

gjd
UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!dare
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!dare@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!dare@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 09:10:02 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: MANAGER%smith.bitnet@rutgers.edu
Subject: Thomas Covenant and his crime of "passion"

I can't understand Mary Malmros and Lisa Evan's point of view at
all. Why don't you stop telling us how evil rape is, and READ our
messages.

Donaldson was TRYING to evoke the image of a rather callous guy to
the point to ludicrousity (is that a word). He succeeded quite
well, and TC is a very convincing character.

Even if I thought I was dreaming I wouldn't go around shooting
everyone, because that wouldn't be fun. However, I could easily rape
someone (or imagine Cheryl Tiegs raping me). There is no danger of
my doing this in reality since I am a very sensitive person who
derives the majority of my pleasure from the pleasure of others.

Dreams are a way of exploring territory to yourself that you would
never be able to (or want to) explore otherwise. When I dream, I
usually know it is a dream, so I can see how confused TC would be if
he were put in a REAL situation and thought it was a dream.

I guess it takes a good author to make you react so strongly. My
fault with Donaldson (not Davidson :)) is that he wrote the 2nd
trilogy. A bit overdone I think. Is there anyway we could get
Donaldson to read this I comment to us?

Danny Loeb

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 09:11:40 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: OLIPHANT@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU
Subject: 7th Covenant Book

I thougt the reason for only summarizing the journey to the giant
homeland was that Donaldson wanted to preserve the TC P.O.V. to
continue to have the reader wonder if TC was indeed dreaming.

Danny Loeb

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 15:02:41 GMT
From: rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: Donaldson Bashing

>How about wanting to give an author all possible breaks?  I read
>all three books only because I continued to hope against hope that
>Donaldson would somehow manage to pull off the character, that he
>could make Covenant work.  He couldn't.  He didn't even come close.
>And THAT'S why I say "Don't read these books", because I did, and I
>therefore have taken on Donaldson's sin unto myself (:-), so you
>won't have to.

There are six (and a half :-) books.  Anyways, I do the same thing.
I usually complete a book unless it gets really uninteresting.
However, if you are really repulsed by the series (as so many are
stating), it seems strange to put yourself through all six books and
then turn around and tell others not to read them for themselves
because they're so bad.  Seems almost selfish - keeping all that
self-torture and nausea for yourself... :-) :-)

>I NEVER fail to finish a book which has received any sort of
>acclaim.  I always want to find out, for myself, if the book
>deserves the acclaim or not.  It's the only way I can maintain any
>credibility when I say that a book is not worthwhile.  Besides, I
>HATE it when someone says "But you didn't read it ALL, how can you
>know it's so bad clear through?".

Exactly the point.  I'm not asking people to not read a book
completely, but rather, if anything, to stop reading it and then
telling people not to.  Recommend that it's not worth it, and
_justify_ that recommendation with examples, but let them judge for
themselves.  There are people who like the TC stuff.  There are
others who haven't read it who will also.  They shouldn't be
discouraged from it.  Goes for all other authors as well.  (Just
seems that Donaldson is getting the major bashing lately.  :-) This
isn't a global pick either, many people are good at posting reasons.
Too bad many others aren't.  "This is garbage.  Ignore it."  doesn't
do any good.)

Anyways, this is all getting way too dragged out and tedious, and
I'm not helping.  :-)

Robert J. Granvin
2701 West 43rd Street
Minneapolis, MN  55410
INTERNET: rjg@sialis.mn.org
UUCP:  ...ihnp4!meccts!sialis!rjg
...uunet!rosevax!ems!sialis!rjg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 16:55 EST
From: Dan Harkavy <V066EDD9@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Yet more on TC

Mary Malmros printed:
> The only problem with your reasoning, David, is that rape isn't
> about sexual gratification, it's about violence.  Change Lisa's
> sentence to "Covenant decides to severely beat a teenage girl he
> doesn't think exists" and see if you feel the same way about it.
> Plus, you have to consider whether Covenant's belief that he is
> dreaming should absolve him of anything. If you're solipsistic to
> the point of craziness, I suppose you might walk around shooting
> people and reasoning that since they're all creations of your
> mind, there's no harm done.  If you do something like this and
> then don't feel any remorse, it doesn't mean you're ok, it means
> you're crazy.

But This is a Fantasy book...  and it is quite possible at that
point that Covenant *IS* dreaming.  Further, I have done violence to
others in my dreams... I can't recall doing violence of that
magnitude, but I have certainly done violence in dreams...  How can
you feal remorse for a dream?

Steve Oliphant posts:

> Has anyone ever read (or seen) the SEVENTH book in the series
> about Thomas Covenant? I saw it a few years ago. It was a small
> book (about 60 pages) containing material that was cut out of the
> first trilogy. It was the full story of the a journey (made by
> some of the main characters) that was described to Thomas
> Covenant. I think that it was the journey to the Giants homeland.
> Unfortunately, I do not remember the Thomas Covenant books well
> enough to reconstruct the story.

The book was Gildenfire...  It was interesting, but not at all
neccessary to the story.

Lisa Evans tells us:

> First off, I saw an episode of "Nova" a few weeks ago concerning
> leprosy, the dread disease that so traumatizes Thomas Covenant.
> Turns out leprosy is completely controllable/curable, and has been
> since the advent of antibiotics.  If the disease is caught in
> time, the infected suffer no ill effects at all.  I seem to recall
> Donaldson touching on this, but given this, the whole leper
> business seems too conscious an attempt at a tragic, Job-like
> hero.  What Donaldson seems to have missed is that tragic,
> Job-like heroes suffer nobly.  They don't whine.  And Covenant
> whines for most of the damn sextology - funny, the Britannica
> didn't mention that as a side effect of leprosy....

I saw the same episode of NOVA, and you apparantly missed a point or
two.  First off, Leprosy (Hansen's Disease) is TREATABLE, not
curable.  This means that the disease can be controlled, and its
effects stopped, but only as long as treatment is maintained.
Furthermore, the degenerative aspects of the disease require the
utmost vigilance on the part of the victim of the disease because
their nerves are damaged, and they can no longer feel when they are
damaged.  They have to be aware of the world around themselves and
cannot afford to relax their vigilance.  Any denial of leprosy would
lead to the possibility of unnoticed damage to the leper.  As to the
concept of Covenant as a 'Job-like hero' He is not one, and was
never intended to be...  FOr that matter, why shouldn't such heroes
bhine a bit about their burdens???  wouldn't you?

Hans Rancke tells us:
> In fact, we have absolute proof that it *is* a dream. Consider:
> Thomas looses conciousness, wakes up in another world. The power
> of the Land cures his wounds (we have no evidence that his leprosy
> is cured, but his dead nerves do regenerate). Once the book is
> over he wakes up and finds his nerves in exactly the same
> condition as when he left. Now even if the Land did not cure his
> leprosy, it would be some time before he got back into the old
> state. What do you call it if you think you experience something,
> then wake up and discovers that it's not so?

But: what if the spell's that affect Covenant are effective ONLY in
the land...  outside the LAnd, he may revert back to 'normal'

Overall I liked the series, but I will agree that there are flaws...
But why not accept that Covenant is despicable, perhaps with some
cause, but despicable...

Dan Harkavy

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 03:23:49 GMT
From: mok@pawl12.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Cerebus (was re: Thomas Covenant)

dare@swatsun.uucp (Geoff Dare) writes:
>You make it sound like Cerebus is not essential to the story, like
>the other characters are what people really read the book for.  And
>the supporting characters _are_ fantastic and three-dimensional.
>But the spotlight is still on Cerebus, and rightly so.  Cerebus
>_is_ a foul-tempered amoral hedonist, but the way he is portrayed
>keeps me interested in him.  I _don't_ want to see him die (unlike
>Mr. Godfrey and Covenant); Cerebus has a strong, driven personality
>quite _unlike_ Covenant and in a way inspires respect just for his
>forcefulness.
>
>I didn't care for the Covenant series but I do like Cerebus and
>anti-heroes in general.  Covenant isn't exactly anti-hero in that
>he waffles much more than the norm (or it seems that way to me).

   Yes, there is NO denying that Cerebus is a complete and utter
bastard, but what makes him distinct from Covenant is that I (maybe
you too) LIKE Cerebus and sympathise with him despite his various
excessess and cruelties. If anyone out there can sympathise with or
even like Covenant despite his faults, please avoid me as there is
something seriously wrong with you.

reply to mok@pawl.rpi.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #45
Date: 27 Jan 88 1133-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1133-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 27 Jan 1988    Volume 13 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Blake's 7 (8 msgs) &
                              Earth Star Voyager (2 msgs) &
                              Captain Midnight & Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 88 08:42:31 EST
From: bsu-cs!cmness@rutgers.edu (Christopher Ness)
To: Wahl.es@xerox.com, ames!aurora!timelord@cad.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re:  Blakes 7
Cc: moran@lion.arpa

If American television got hold of Blake 7, it would probaly turn
into a sickly sweet thing like some of the new Star Trek adventures.
Example:
   "Golly gee, Avon.  We got away from the federation alive."
   "Yes, my faithful sidekick, Orac.  Now lets have Vila whip up
ship out of bailing wire and tree bark and fly out of here....."
You get the hint....

If the series is totally dead in the water, I hope it remains that
way before some enterprising young T.V. exec gets the idea to rehash
it....

Glad talking,
_Chris

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 14:26:27 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7

Wahl.es@XEROX.COM writes:
> What interesting timing!  One of the SFLovers Digests I got
> yesterday had a number of references to "Headhunter" and that was
> shown here last night.
>
> Now, can someone who remembers this episode please tell me WHY
> they destroyed the android? I couldn't see any reason for it, once
> they had the control mechanism installed. Avon's theory that (to
> paraphrase) the others were a bunch of anti-technology thugs,
> doesn't quite ring true, given the effort they've made before to
> get hold of technolgy that would give them an edge. I kept waiting
> for someone to say, "We discovered that the control mechanism
> wouldn't work because . . ."

   From what I remember of the episode, Mueller's android was
destroyed by Tarrant (who took the actually responsibility) because
of information from ORAC that as long as the android was around,
it's potential to dominate the galaxy was present. All one would
have to do is remove the inhibitor. Tarrant, Dayna and Soolin
thought it was too dangerous a situation, so better to destroy it.
Avon's comments show that he took it merely as fear (they were
afraid!), but ORAC makes a comment about Mueller and Avon's conceit,
both thinking they could control that much power to do what they
wanted it to do. Of course, ORAC had a vested interest in the
destruction of the android, as long as it was opearting without the
inhibitor, ORAC was subserviant to it and had to do what it wanted.
For ORAC, that was an intolerable situation. Like Avon, ORAC will do
the right thing as long as it is in his best interest.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 02:16:34 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Blakes 7

Terry Nation has said that those companies in the U.S. who have been
interested in starting B7 up again want to keep it just the way it
was and that HE would most likely be in charge anyway.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 19 January 88 12:10 EST
From: UT6Y%CORNELLA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Blake's 7

Blake's 7 done by American TV would be a mess, unless it were done
the same way they're doing ST-TNG -- via syndication.  The networks
would turn it to gelatin.

As for bringing Blake back in ANY form, why bother?  The show did
just fine with Avon in charge -- heck, most people (myself included)
seem to like Avon a helluva lot more than they did Blake, so why
bring Blake back?  Let him stay dead if Gareth wants.

UT6Y@CORNELLA
UT6Y@CRNLVAX5/vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
UT6Y@hp1.ccs.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 19:36:43 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: The Mad Robot on Blake's 7

Wahl.es@XEROX.COM writes:
>Now, can someone who remembers this episode please tell me WHY
>they destroyed the android?  I couldn't see any reason for it,
>once they had the control mechanism installed.  Avon's theory that
>(to paraphrase) the others were a bunch of anti-technology thugs,
>doesn't quite ring true, given the effort they've made before to
>get hold of technolgy that would give them an edge.  I kept
>waiting for someone to say, "We discovered that the control
>mechanism wouldn't work because . . ."

Avon's theory isn't supposed to ring true.  Remember, Avon is a
self- centered, sociopathic thug.  We only root for him because he's
*our* self-centered, sociopathic thug.  Avon doesn't care about the
risks of a using a machine that has the capability of destroying
humanity; he just wants to beat the Federation and get his revenge
again S.  Anyway, the android got out of control before; the other
believe that the risk of it getting out of control again, however
small, is unacceptable, given the consequences.

We have here the old Dangeous Device debate, applied to nuclear
weapons and power stations, risky industrial processes,
environmental decline, etc.  People who see only the benefits of the
DD argue: we *need* this thing, and as long as we excercise proper
control, the DD is actually less of a hazard than the alternatives.
(Nuke Power plants impact the environment less than fossil fuel
plants; Nuke stalemate is preferable to Conventional war;
insecticide pollution is better than food shortages...)  The
question, though, isn't whether the DD under control is a Good
Thing.  The question is whether we can afford the consequence of the
DD getting out of control.  And it will.  Because no safeguard is
perfect, and a disaster, however improbable, will come to pass if
you throw the dice enough times.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 19:08:51 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Book Search: Blake's 7 Novelization Query

>Has there ever been any novelization of the British SF TV series
>Blake's 7?  (Perhaps something similar to the work of James Blish
>for the old Star Trek series).  Or has anything been written
>dealing with the show's characters?

   The BLAKES 7 books are:
      BLAKES 7 - Trevor Hoyle
      BLAKES 7: Project Avalon - Trevor Hoyle
      BLAKES 7: Scorpio Attack - Trevor Hoyle

   These are adaptations of several episodes of the series. I have
only read BLAKES 7: Scorpio Attack. It contains the episodes
"Rescue", "Traitor" and "Star Drive". They are extremely hard to
find, but I have heard that the first book is going to be re-issued
later this year due to the enormous popularity of the series here in
the U.S.

   Afterlife - Tony Attwood

   This takes place five months after the episode "Blake" and
according to the cover is the official BBC version of what happens
to the characters. It is not very good in my opinion.

   The BLAKES 7 Programme Guide - Tony Attwood

   An episode guide and index to the BLAKES 7 galaxy. This is very
good as the episode descriptions are longer than usual. It also has
short sections with Paul Darrow talking about Avon and Michael
Keating about Vila.

   ? - Paul Darrow

   I don't know the title of this book, but it was supposed to be
out by Christmas `87. It is about Avon before meeting Blake on the
transport ship to Cygnus Alpha.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 22:08:37 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: What is Blake's 7?

I got a letter from somebody who was intrigued by all the references
to "Blake's 7" but had never seen the show.  I got carried away in
the response, so I think I'll post it in case anybody else finds my
babble useful.

Blake's 7 was BBC-TV science fiction series.  I think it ran from 78
to 81.  It's carried in this country mainly by public TV stations
who've found SF lovers to be a good source of donations.  If enough
people were to write to your local station, they could probably be
persuaded to carry it, especially if you offered to help with their
next pledge break.  I doubt if it's available on tape, though I
don't know for sure.  Because of interest by U.S. viewers, it's
likely that the series will be revived.

The story is about Roj Blake, who was once a political leader
fighting a repressive government called The Federation.  The
Federation arrested Blake and turned him into a loyal stooge using
advanced technology capable of altering people's thought patterns
and memories.  As the series begins, Blake's former friends hope to
overthrow the Federation by revealing its secret use of thought
control, and try to recruit Blake, hoping to bring back his memory
and make him their leader.  But the Federation has anticipated just
such a move, and takes advantage of the situation to murder the
remaining dissidents.  Blake himself is publically tried on trumped
up charges (children are brainwashed to "remember" that he molested
them) and sentenced to a penal colony offplanet.  Blake vows to
regain his memory, return to Earth, and destroy the Federation.

On the way to the penal colony, the prison ship encounters a great
space battle between two alien races.  They avoid the battle itself,
but encounter a derelict warship of great power.  The guards hope to
salvage it, but their boarding party is killed by the same malignant
force that forced the original crew to abandon ship.  Not able to
spare any more men, but unwilling to give up their prize, the guards
organize a final attempt consisting of petty criminals and led by
Blake.  Blake manages to destroy the evil force and come to terms
with the ship's computer, Zen, an enigmatic entity with telepathic
powers.  Zen informs the humans that the ship is called The
Liberator, "because that's how you think of it".  Blake realizes
that the Liberator, faster and better armed than any ship in the
Federation fleet, can form the core of a serious rebellion.  With a
not-entirely-voluntary crew of criminals freed from the prison ship
and the penal colony, Blake escapes in the Liberator to begin his
struggle against the Federation.

The ideas behind this series are very intriguing, but I found
subsequent episodes very disappointing.  Many ideas are never
properly developed (everyone seems to forget that Zen is
telepathic), the writers have an embarrassing tendency to throw in a
lot of scientific terms they obviously don't understand, and the
series as a whole is full of appalling inconsistencies.  (British TV
seems to resist the idea of putting a single person in charge of
continuity.)  There are also a lot of episodes that are your typical
man vs. monster silliness.  Still, there *are* some intriguing
episodes, a lot of clever writing, and some spiffy acting.
Everyone's favorite seems to be Paul Darrow, who plays Avon, a
selfish, sarcastic, and amoral computer genius who starts out as one
of Blake's unwilling followers ends up dominating most of the later
episodes.

Isaac Rabinovitch
isaac.rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
ucbvax!sun!cup.portal.com!isaac.rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 19:40:44 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

I just saw the very last episode of Blake's 7 entitled 'Blake'.
Rather disappointing I might add.

***  SPOILERS  FOLLOW  ***

I mean, why [apparently] kill off all of the series members?  Seems
to me a very dumb way to end what was a *great* series.

Okay.  So, maybe none of the cast *was* killed off except for Blake
and Dayna.  Perhaps the Federation guys had their weapons on stun
for some reason and didn't actually *kill* Vila, Soolin, and
Tarrent.  So the question remains: when will the series be brought
back?

And it wouldn't need to be called "Blake's 7" either.  Afterall,
Blake is dead.  Or was this a Blake clone?  I personally don't think
it was but you never really know do you?  Did Avon shoot Blake
prematurely?  He didn't seem to let Blake *explain* himself
adequately before firing.  Perhaps he had heard enough and was
convinced that Blake meant them more harm than good regardless of
his explanations?

I enjoyed Slave's final words and failings.

Still, a lousy way to end a series.  Just kill off the cast!   :-(

Bob Pietkivitch
ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jan 88 21:00:34 GMT
From: CHAPMAN@kl.sri.com (Walter Chapman)
Subject: _EARTH_STAR_VOYAGER_ (not a spoiler....)

Consider Disney's presentaion last evening (1/18) of a made-for-tv
movie called EARTH STAR VOYAGER (that's the name....right?).

Well, all I can say is

GALACTICANS REJOICE !!!  At least the Galactica never went to the
Planet of Punk Rockers......

Did you happen to notice that the youngest male was red haired,
teamed with an older female (brunette hair in a sort-of ponytail)
and an `older' blonde female ??  Reminded me of Will, Penny and
Judy.... "Warning Will...errrr...  Beany."

And the captain has dark hair and has a blonde sidekick ??  Apollo
and Starbuck together again ??

:-)   :-)   :-)    :-)

Anyway, if this show does well in the rating (part 2 next week) then
it's planned to become a weekly tv show......

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 18:41:22 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: _EARTH_STAR_VOYAGER_ (not a spoiler....)

>Consider Disney's presentaion last evening (1/18) of a made-for-tv
>movie called EARTH STAR VOYAGER (that's the name....right?).
>
>Well, all I can say is
>
>GALACTICANS REJOICE !!!  At least the Galactica never went to the
>Planet of Punk Rockers......

This movie is far far better than BS Galactica. It actually has a
plausible reason for having all those kids on the ship. It doesn't
confuse a solar system with a galaxy. I did detect one error in the
first episode.

This movie reminds me of a Heinlein juvenile. Among the characters
are two who fit the classic Heinlein duo of older wiser hero/younger
hero.  The movie is clearly intended for children and it is very
well done as such. It is good enough that an adult could enjoy it.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 18:44 EST
From: blackje%sungod.tcpip@ge-crd.arpa
Subject: old tv shows

Does anyone else remember "Captain Midnight," or am I just getting
old?  I remember that the sponsor was "Ovaltine" hot chocolate drink
mix.  I'll bet I could even locate my "secret decoder ring," if I
went to visit my mother...

Does anyone remember a show where they sold plastic sheets that
adhere to the tv screen via static, and the kiddies trace parts of
secret messages from the screen with a special crayon... (this may
have been Captain Midnight, too)... once completed, after tracing
several segments, the secret message revealed something about the
next episode...

Seems like I remember something about being inside a volcano in one
episode.  Anyone else remember this?  Are these things still
available anywhere?

Emmett
BlackJE@GE-CRD.ARPA
...!steinmetz!crd!blackje

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 12:28:49 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@rutgers.edu (Doctor Who)
Subject: DR. WHO SEASON 25 (* MINOR SPOILER AT END*)

Veteran comic writer Alan Moore (Swamp Thing, et al.) has been asked
to submit a story for Dr. Who's next season.

*** SPOILER ***

The latest news on the next Dr. Who Season is this:

The Daleks will return, with the capability of hovering (if you are
confused, watch the end of REVLEATION OF THE DALEKS carefully,
Davros is hovering...)

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #46
Date: 27 Jan 88 1146-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1146-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:

             Books - Gibson (2 msgs) & Lackey & Lanier

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 17:34:12 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_, by William Gibson

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP writes:
>RPK@IBM.COM (Richard King) writes:
>Second, although there were many good ideas in the book, too many
>seemed borrowed.  .  . [Passage in Neuromancer compared to passage
>(page 68) from _Today We Choose Faces_ by Roger Zelazny, copyright
>1973; in each case the protagonist is pursued by a ringing
>telephone.]  The words are different, it's a minor element and, for
>all I really know, Gibson may have intended this only as a hint as
>to who he admires.  But the overall feeling I get from
>_Neuromancer_ is that Gibson is an only somewhat creative guy who
>can recognize a good idea when he sees it.

If this is intended as proof that Zelazny is a more "creative"
author than Gibson, perhaps the best refutation is an egregious
instance of Zelazny's borrowing.  I don't know of a better than the
opening scene of Nine Princes in Amber.  There is an almost
identical scene (hero wakes up confused, overnarcotized, in a
hospital run by a shady operator, overpowers the nurse, steals the
gun out of the hand of the operator, threatens a lawsuit, demands
money, etc.) in one of Raymond Chandler's novels, Farewell My
Lovely, I think.

>Gibson may be credited with two things: First of all, his brilliant
>prose style.  I never read any author use metaphors that so
>accurately capture our own present-day society--he is totally
>original in this.  He's even beat the "mainstream" authors on this
>one.  I can't think of any big mainstream authors who used
>high-tech metaphors and similes so adroitly as Gibson did when
>_Neuromancer_ first came out.  (Ballard uses scientific metaphors
>aplenty, but they all come from classical mathematics and
>sciences.)  Think of the opening description of the sky "the color
>of television tuned to a dead channel."  That's such an obvious
>metaphor in our TV-oriented society, yet I believe Gibson was the
>first to use it.

I agree with this assertion in general, but I don't think Gibson is
unique in this regard. Take the sky metaphor.  This is a literary
reference if anything is:

"Let us go then, you and I/ When the evening is spread out against
the sky/ Like a patient etherized upon a table."
    The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Of course ether is not a high-tech concept by 1980s standards, but
the above passage was written 60 years ago.  Moreover, Gibson
borrows from contemporary "mainstream" writers.  For instance, his
"machine dreams" comes from Jayne Anne Phillips.

>The second of Gibson's contributions was, in retrospect, not
>incredibly original, but it was something the field had been
>missing for a long time--a believable society set in the *near*
>future (not hundreds or thousands of years from now), rigidly and
>methodically extrapolated.

I definitely agree with this.  (I suspect, by the way, that
Neuromancer takes place more than one hundred years in our future.
But I may be wrong.)  In any case, Gibson has the courage to
speculate in directions where he may be proved wrong in a matter of
decades.  This used to be a commonplace of science fiction.  The
writers Gibson lampoons in "the Gernsback continuum" made this
mistake, and succeeding generations of writers learned from it.  I
suspect that thirty or forty years hence Gibson will be considered
quaintly _period_: "You know those '80s preoccupations- computers,
DNA, the rise of the Japanese."

>The idea of machines suddenly "coming to life" and "pursuing" a
>protagonist at least goes back to that old Twilight Zone episode
>about the guy who hates appliances and technology--at the climax,
>everywhere the guy goes, his machines turn on and turn against him.

Oh, it's certainly older than that.  Simak's "Skirmish" is an early
example, but I'm sure there are earlier instances.  I suppose in
some sense, all such examples are variations on the Frankenstein
theme.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 12:19:50 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Captain Spaulding)
Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_, by William Gibson

RPK@IBM.COM (Richard King) writes:
>When I read _Neuromancer_ I didn't much care for it.
[I've taken the liberty of editing his posting, so read it to get a
more accurate picture of Richard King's views]
>First, I just didn't like Case.  I found his self-destructiveness
>and total moral bankruptcy rather off-putting.

   While you say you don't like books with such protagonists,
fine--that's your perogative.  But let's address the issues of
"self-destructiveness" and "moral bankruptcy."  I think you're
missing the point that Case is a true hacker--he lives to hack.
He's obsessed with hacking.  Is this any different from a musician
being obsessed with performing, or a writer with writing, or any
other person driven by some all-consuming activity?  You'll find
that such people, when not indulged with their obsession, find the
other aspects of life rather boring--hence their turning to drugs.
Why do you think so many musicians are substance abusers?  They live
to play--everything else is irrelevant.  The same with Case, and
even more so in his case (no pun intended), since he was wired at
the beginning of the book to be unable to hack--the one thing he
lived for.  That's a literarily justifiable reason for having a
character be a nihilistic drug addict, don't you think?  As for his
"moral bankruptcy," his cavalier attitude towards everything other
than hacking--well, I've said it already.  He lives to hack;
everything else is just incidental to him.

>Second, although there were many good ideas in the book, too many
>seemed borrowed.  .  .  Maybe my general dislike for most of the
>characters colored my perceptions but it really irked me when I got
>to the end of chapter 7, part 2.  There is a nice little scene:
>[scene deleted]
>The problem is that it reminded me much too much of certain
>elements in another book, like the following scene:
>[scene delete]
>The words are different, it's a minor element and, for all I really
>know, Gibson may have intended this only as a hint as to who he
>admires.  But the overall feeling I get from _Neuromancer_ is that
>Gibson is an only somewhat creative guy who can recognize a good
>idea when he sees it.

   First, a general preface to your comparison.  Most readers with a
wide knowledge of SF literature will grant that Gibson's subject
matter is not outrageously original.  (But then again, didn't some
famous SF writer once state that H.G. Wells wrote all the basic SF
plot devices--time travel, alien invasion, space exploration,
science out of control, etc. [except for perhaps the parallel
universe, which many credit Murray Leinster's "Sidewise in Time" for
being the first example of this.])  Corporate mercenaries (shades of
Pohl and Kornbluth!), sentient computers, human/computer interfaces,
orbiting city/space stations, have all been explored by earlier
works.  Gibson may be credited with two things: First of all, his
brilliant prose style.  I never read any author use metaphors that
so accurately capture our own present-day society--he is totally
original in this.  He's even beat the "mainstream" authors on this
one.  I can't think of any big mainstream authors who used high-tech
metaphors and similes so adroitly as Gibson did when _Neuromancer_
first came out.  (Ballard uses scientific metaphors aplenty, but
they all come from classical mathematics and sciences.)  Think of
the opening description of the sky "the color of television tuned to
a dead channel."  That's such an obvious metaphor in our TV-oriented
society, yet I believe Gibson was the first to use it.  He does
similarly brilliant things with chips, circuitry, and computers in
his descriptions of Case's world.
   The second of Gibson's contributions was, in retrospect, not
incredibly original, but it was something the field had been missing
for a long time--a believable society set in the *near* future (not
hundreds or thousands of years from now), rigidly and methodically
extrapolated.  If we can accept the premise that human/computer
interfaces are possible, and that an AI program could gain
sentience, (and based on my own limited readings on the computer
field today, there are researchers who feel it's only a matter of
time before these things happen [uh-oh, I can feel the flames
already]) the rest of the society clicks right into place for me.  I
think it's fairly obvious that the USA stands a good chance of
losing its economic dominance at the global level, particularly
after these last few crazy months with Wall Street, the budget
deficit, the trade deficit, etc.  The portrayal of corporate
behaviour is not far-fetched--espionage is way of life for the big
guys these days, and I've often felt that the way people allow
themselves to be abused at work because they're afraid of losing the
security of a life-time job is a quasi-throwback to feudalism.  But
I digress.  The bulk of SF in the 60's and 70's seemed to take place
in the distant future, and/or it was based on premises that seemed
scientifically impossible at the time.  And I'd say that fantasy has
dominated the field from the late '70's, up until _Neuromancer_'s
publication.  A carefully extrapolated near future was just
something that hadn't prominently been done since the 50's.
   Third, and this ties in with my second point, Gibson has managed
to combine hard science fiction with high literary techniques.
Let's face it, characterization and style has always been a
low-priority element in hard science fiction (with the exception of
Benford).  _Neuromancer_ (and other novels like Greg Bear's _Blood
Music_) showed how hard science fiction and time-honored literary
concerns could be melded into an exciting synthesis.
   And now, to move away from my "preface" (sheez, some preface,
huh?), and to return to your comparison of Gibson and Zelazny.  I'm
not familiar with that particular Zelazny piece, but from what
you've quoted, it doesn't seem like all that much of a rip-off to
me.  The idea of machines suddenly "coming to life" and "pursuing" a
protagonist at least goes back to that old Twilight Zone episode
about the guy who hates appliances and technology--at the climax,
everywhere the guy goes, his machines turn on and turn against him.
His typewriter types out "GET OUT OF HERE BUSBY" (or whatever his
name was), his electric razor is buzzing away the same phrase;
whereever he turns, there's a malevolent machine clammering away.
So does that mean Zelazny stole from "Twilight Zone?"
   Granted, the situations are slightly different in my Twilight
Zone example, and your telephone examples (althought I believe the
phone entered into the TZ episode as well); it's just a powerful
situation--many people have nightmares about machines/technology
turning against them (and for good reason--dat ol' debbil Mr. Atomic
Bomb isn't exactly a hunk of warm and cuddly flesh).  I'm sure there
are many authors who have used a similar situation in their stories
(I'd find it hard to believe Stephen King would pass this one up,
although nothing comes to mind to me right now), because it *is*
such a commonly-shared nightmare.
   And finally, returning to the points in my preface: You said that
the words are different between the two examples, but that this was
a minor point.  You're missing the point--that's the whole ball-game
with Gibson-- his style.  Zelazny's description relies heavily on
abstract concepts, and poking into the character's thoughts.  As an
old writing teacher used to castigate me, "It's not concete!"  There
aren't that many descriptions of concrete, tangible things in
Zelazzny's prose.  Now look at Gibson.  There's no abstraction
whatsoever, he gives us concrete images we can see and hear.  This
isn't to say there's no feeling to Gibson's prose.  It's there,
reflected in the actions described.  The fact that Case drops his
coin, and forgets his cigarettes lets us know that he's extremely
upset.  Zelazny *tells* us his protagonist is upset.  Gibson implies
it.  See the difference?  I'm not knocking Zelazny, by the way; each
style has its own advantages and disadvantages.  It's just that many
bad authors tend to tell readers things outright, rather than *show*
them (presumably because the author isn"t inventive enough to know
how to do the latter; Zelazny certainly does know, but chooses not
to).
   Finally, look at how Gibson reinforces the setting of his society
in passing comments (a la Heinlein).  It's not just a voice on the
telephone--it's one that's been synthesized, and one that's coming
from a communications satellite.  That tells you something about the
technology without getting in the way of the plot--an old problem
with science fiction, which Gibson expertly avoids (as did Heinlein,
who was probably the first author to do so.)  Furthermore, we see
the society portrayed in _Neuromancer_ as an inhabitant of that
society would see it, not as a present-day person would.  (Again, a
Heinlein trick which many subsequent authors have put to good use.)
That's what makes this such a difficult book to read for many
people--they can't figure out what's happening because there isn't a
blow-by-blow analysis of the society in the narrative.  Personally,
I find it surprising that readers of a genre which values
imagination so highly can find literary techniques such as
implication (which demands that you use your imagination to fill in
the gaps) so incomprehendable.

   Gibson has set high standards for all the authors in the field to
deal with, and any one who can shake up SF like Gibson did with
_Neuromancer_ is welcome in my book.

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 14:19:35 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: fantasy recommendations

locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Timothy Haas) writes:
>I also recommend a couple of other books by a relativly new author
>- Mercedes (Misty) Lackey.  The lady is a good author and a
>marvelous song- writer.  The books are :
>   _Arrows of the Queen_
>   _Arrow's Flight_
>   _Arrow's Fall_

Let me agree.  I'm halfway through this series, and enjoying it a
lot.  It is about a young person, Talia, who suddenly finds herself
rather important, since she has a 'Gift' that will enable her to
become one of the 'Heralds', whose functions (and problems) are
shown us in some detail.

It is fantasy, but with no elves or (thank Brigid) escapees from the
Celtic mythos.  My only quibble is that sometimes the plot moves too
quickly (!) - I'd like more detail of places, people, events &c.

The books resemble some of Jo Clayton's in paying a certain rational
attention to sex; whether they are appropriate for ones teenage
daughter is a matter for your judgement.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 88 16:12:03 MEZ
From: I0060303%DBSTU1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Post-Holocaust Fantasy

I'm kind of surprised that nobody mentions Sterling E. Lanier:
'Hiero's Journey' and the (not so well-written) sequel 'The
Unforsaken Hiero'.

***Minor Spoiler follows***

'Hiero's Journey' tells of a world, some 5.000 years after a nuclear
holocaust, populated by humans (partly gifted with psi-powers),
mutated animals, some good, some evil, and a continuing fight
between the powers of darkness and light (Guess who wins]). Both
sides are in the first stages of regaining the technology of, let's
say the '70es of our century, but both put it to different uses.
Hiero tries to get a computer for the good side. The sequel expands
the subject of the 'Journey' and hints at some dark power beyond the
evil.

***Spoiler end***

At least the 'Journey' is a very good read.  It calls for a sequel,
but not the one it has got. Well, that can't be helped.

Klaus

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #47
Date: 27 Jan 88 1157-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1157-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:

              Books - LeGuin & Lem & Nourse (2 msgs) &
                      Palmer & Peake & Pohl & 
                      Sheckley (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 88 16:06:48 MEZ
From: I0060303%DBSTU1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Ursula K. LeGuin

In a recent posting (methinks issue #34) someone mentioned Ursula
LeGuin 'Always Coming Home'. I'd like to hear some opinions about
that book, as i'm reading it right now and haven't got the faintest
idea yet (having read one quarter of it) what the book is about and
why she wrote it.

If the discussion of the book has already raged thru the keyboards
of this net, will someone please send me some excerpts of it?

Klaus

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 01:14:37 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: A PERFECT VACUUM/ONE HUMAN MINUTE by S. Lem

                 A PERFECT VACUUM by Stanislaw Lem
            Translated from the Polish by Michael Kandel
    Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1971 (1978, 1979), 0-15-671686-0
                 ONE HUMAN MINUTE by Stanislaw Lem
          Translated from the Polish by Catherine S. leach
       Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1985 (1986), 0-15-668795-X
                Two book reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is a review of two real books of reviews of 18 imaginary
books and one real one.  The real book reviewed is A PERFECT VACUUM,
which is the first book reviewed in A PERFECT VACUUM itself.

     Though these are called reviews, they are more summaries of the
works than the sort of "thumbs-up/thumbs-down" writing that people
think of when they hear the word 'review'.  So what we have here is
really Lem writing about various philosophical concepts that would
normally take a full book in a condensed format.  In many ways,
these "reviews" are more like "Cliff's Notes" for non-existent
books.

     Some of the books described are take-offs on recognized
literature.  GIGAMESH (yes, that is how it is spelled) is to the
Gilgamesh legend what Joyce's ULYSSES is to the ODYSSEY and Lem
spends his review doing the same sort of dissection on it, word by
word, phoneme by phoneme, that critics have been doing to Joyce for
years.  GRUPPENFUHRER LOUIS XVI is a novel about how an ex-Nazi in
Argentina recreates the pre-Revolutionary French Court in the
jungle; Lem's description of it makes it sound as though it
descended from the literary surrealism of that country.  BEING INC.
shows us the world as the result of elaborate computer planning of
individual lives, a huge choreography of humanity; it reminded me
immediately of Borges' story "The Babylon Lottery."

     Many of the philosophical points are intriguing enough that one
wishes for more elucidation on them.  In DIE KULTUR ALS FEHLER
(CIVILIZATION AS MISTAKE) Lem postulates that humanity has tried to
give meaning to its frailties and weaknesses by claiming they are
part of a larger plan of things, the way to a higher state of being.
When "kultur"--technological civilization--comes along and shows us
a way to overcome these handicaps, to accept them we must admit the
meaningless, the futility of all that has gone before.  People had
for millennia explained that pain in childbirth was necessary as
part of some plan; when anesthetic came along, people at first
rejected it.  An acceptance of it would, after all, negate all their
rationalized and mean that the pain women had gone through for so
many centuries was unnecessary.  So it is now that various means of
"correcting" nature have been developed, many people cling to the
old ways rather than admit the "unnecessity" of all the suffering
that has gone before.

     THE NEW COSMOGONY presents a startling, yet consistent, answer
to the Fermi Paradox ("If life is as common in the universe as
calculations would indicate, why haven't we been contacted yet?").
Whether Carl Sagan would buy into it is another story entirely.

     DE IMPOSSIBILITATE VITAE and DE IMPOSSIBILITATE PROGNOSCENDI
are "must reading" for alternate history fans.  The former consists
almost entirely of tracking all the things that must have happened
for the supposed author to have been born: his father must have
married his mother, which in turn depended on them meeting during
the War, which in turn depended on dozens, nay, hundreds of other
events.  For those alternate history authors who think that they can
change one thing without changing others, this chapter should come
as a revelation.

     Many of the books described are larks.  RIEN DU TOUT, OU LA
CONSEQUENCE is a book written entirely in negations ("The train did
not arrive.  He did not come.").  U-WRITE-IT gives the reader blank
pages and strips containing fragments of some great novel and lets
her re-arrange them at will (has Gary Gygax patented this yet?).

     Lem gets his shot at reviewers (of real books, presumably) in
his review of PERICALYPSIS when he says, "Joachim Fersen, a German,
wrote his PERICALYPSE in Dutch (he hardly knows the language, which
he himself admits in the Introduction) and published it in France, a
country notorious for its dreadful proofreading.  The writer of
these words [i.e., Lem] also does not, strictly speaking, know
Dutch, but going by the title of the book, the English Introduction,
and a few understandable expressions here and there in the text, he
has concluded that he can muster as a reviewer after all."  Given
that the premise of PERICALYPSIS is that so much bad art is produced
that the good art is hopelessly swamped, and hence all of it should
be destroyed to simplify things, the need for reviewers would be
diminished were it taken seriously at all.

     In ONE HUMAN MINUTE, Lem restricts himself to only three books,
and hence can devote more time to each one.  ONE HUMAN MINUTE is an
encyclopedic description of what everyone in the world is doing in a
single minute, sort of like those photographic books of a day in
America and a day in the Soviet Union, but much much thorough and
restricted.  Lem describes it as deriving from the GUINNESS BOOK and
books such as THE FIRST THREE MINUTES.  For example, he claims that
53.4 billion liters of human blood are pumped per minute.  (I assume
those are American billions, rather than British billions.  If you
assume 5 billion people, that's 10.7 liters per minute per person.
Sounds about right.  Of course, this is set in the 21st Century, so
5 billion may be off.)

     THE UPSIDE-DOWN EVOLUTION says that since insects are much less
susceptible to radiation than huge computers, future weaponry will
consist of swarms of specially engineered synthetic insects.  (Has
anyone thought of Lem as one of the original cyberpunk authors?  He
has certainly dealt with robots and computers for longer than all
these new upstarts.)  And THE WORLD AS CATACLYSM is just another way
of looking at catastrophe theory.

     Both books are interesting exercises in fantasy, or perhaps
meta- fantasy.  Another of Lem's works, IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE, is a
collection of introductions to imaginary works, and I hope to get to
that soon.  Of these two, however, I would recommend A PERFECT
VACUUM first.  If you enjoy that, you might try ONE HUMAN MINUTE,
but the former does offer a more varied menu than the latter.  And I
think the former has some far more interesting ideas to provide food
for thought for the reader.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 23:29:21 GMT
From: ksloan@wright.edu (Kathleen Sloan)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

dant@tekla.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) says:
> I met Alan Nourse at a sf con last year.  He doesn't do much
> writing anymore.

Alan Nourse _is_ still writing. He is a physician and writes a
column for _Good_Housekeeping_ entitled "Family Doctor". His
profession is one reason a lot of his fiction has a medical bent to
it.

Kathleen Sloan
ksloan@Wright.Edu
...!cbosgd!wright!ksloan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 00:19:11 GMT
From: michaelm@vax.3com.com (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Alan Nourse

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>Another that I think is by him is about a war between Earthbound
>>people and other humans who chose to live in the rest of the solar
>>system.
>"Raiders from the Rings"
>>The third book I remember from about this same time period that I
>>am almost certain is by Nourse is about parallel worlds...a naked
>>girl appears on the
>"The Universe Between"
>
>>I read several books by Alan Nourse when I was 14 or 15.
>>Thoroughly enjoyed them. The only title I can for certain
>>attribute to him is "The Beyond", about paranormal powers
>>beginning to develop among star faring Terrans.
>I read Nourse at the same age, with the same enjoyment.  (I wonder
>how they'd read now.)  "The Beyond" doesn't ring any bells, but two
>others worth reading are/were
>
>"The Mercy Men" (aka "A Man Obsessed"), about a man who volunteers
>for medical experimentation as the only way to gain access to a man
>he's been hunting.
>
>"Star Surgeon", about a young humanoid trying to become a doctor in
>a galaxy in which humanity's contribution is that nobody else ever
>thought of inventing medicine.

Those books are all good -- but how could you both neglect to two
best Alan Nourse books of all: *Scavengers of Space* and *Rocket to
Limbo*!  (Well, I *thought* they were the best in the world -- when
I was about ten years old.  Probably I should re-read them one of
these days....)

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
   !oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 06:04:00 GMT
From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fan

jgsst3@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Lucifer) writes:
>it's a kinda different post-holocaust book but i loved it. It being
>a first novel impressed me even more with the author.
>David R. Palmer    "Emergence"
>
>it's about an adolescent girl named Candy Smith Foster who has just
>had the world annihilate itself.  not with nukes (although some
>were used) but most of the damage was done by germ warfare.  how
>she survived and what she does afterwards is the bulk of the book i
>highly recommend it.

I read the first two chapters when they appeared in Analog as
novellas (novelettes ?).  When the book came out, I read it too.  My
opinion: the first part is extremely good, the second part very
good, and the rest unremarkable.  I thought the story got less
believable as it went along.  Still a good book, but not as good as
I expected from the first part.

John Carr
jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88  9:44 -0600
From: Jacob Reichbart <jacob%noah.arc.cdn@UBC.CSNET>
Subject: RE: M.Peake

I'd have to agree with some of the responders that the imagery in
the Gormenghast Trilogy sometimes outshines the theme.  Yet, I
believe that the ambiance is really the heart of the books.  The
stuff is so thick you can swim in it.  Some readers may like to try
"Mr. Pye" which is a rather light hearted piece he wrote that shares
some of the wonderful imagery.  The writing style is far less
pretentious but no less literary.

Wyndam Lewis wrote a trilogy that is slightly reminiscent of
Gromenghast with a whole lot of James Joyce thrown in.  Childermas,
Monstre Gai, and Malign Fiesta is an incredibly well written
collection about a couple of English Gentlemen school chums that
find themselves reunited in the afterlife.  The first two books
actually take place outside the pearly gates. It's pretty crowded
out there.  The work ends up with these folks undcertaking a
consulting contract with a familiar character that likes to drive a
big flashy Cadillac down Aleph Street.

jacob

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 00:40:00 GMT
From: frog!wjr@rutgers.edu (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: Space Merchants Peeve

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>I read in some interview with Pohl (perhaps in "Hell's
>Cartographers"), that Pohl did nearly all of the writing and
>idea-generation behind the book, [_The Space Merchants_ -wjr] since
>he was in advertising for awhile. I can't remember what Kornbluth's
>involvement was. Pohl also did a sequel, "The Merchant's War",
>without Pohl

Kornbluth

>at all (although it had almost the same plot - with a difference).
>Both books were probably a lot more scandalous when first published
>than they are now. From here, they seem a lot like standard "Golden
>Age" satirical SF.

Well, neither book belongs to what is usually meant by the "Golden
Age" of SF, i.e.  the '30s.  _The Space Merchants_ (aka _Gravy
Planet_) was written in the '50s and _The Merchants War_ was rather
recent (the '80s I Think, dont't have either handy to check) which
explains the lack of Kornbluth (He died a while ago).  Judging from
the two books I would say that Kornbluth's main contribution to _SM_
was a sense of humor.  I thought _SM_ was rather funny, whereas _MW_
is just a standard diatribe against marketing/advertising people.

Since I'm on the subject, I would like to plug two other satires
from the same period by Kornbluth. One is _Gladiator-at-Law_ also
with Pohl.  It has a similar flavor to _The Space Merchants_ but is
aimed at the mega-corporations that were just getting started back
then rather than ad-agencies. The other is _The Syndic_ by Kornbluth
alone, in which the USA has been taken over by Organized Crime and
concern a young mobsters efforts to foil a plot by the
goverment-in-exile. Both are quite funny.

William J. Richard
Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701
(617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 88 23:14 N
From: <AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Sheckley: The 10th Victim

 Sorry if this has been discussed before, but:

 I recently bought "The 10th Victim" by Robert Sheckley -- just like
that, and only because it had the blurb "I had no idea the
competition was so terrifyingly good" (--Douglas Adams) on it. You
see, as announced before, I'm an Adams fan and thought 'Well, if
Adams thinks it's competition, it must be good.'
 The idea behind the book turned out to be nice, and the
storytelling set off quite well in the first few chapters, but it
gets worse pretty quickly, and has a completely unsatisfactory end
(I thought). According to me, this is NO competition for the better
stuff by Douglas Adams.
 So I'd like to know if any of you might know where the publisher
(Signet/NAL) got this quote, and if was directed at "The 10th
Victim" or at some other work by Sheckley. Also, do you think other
works by Sheckley are more worth reading than "The 10th Victim"?

 Thanks,

Maarten
AERTS@HLERUL5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 08:33:44 GMT
From: gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Sheckley: The 10th Victim

AERTS@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
>Also, do you think other works by Sheckley are more worth reading
>than "The 10th Victim"?

I skimmed a few of the other books he set in the same Universe and
those are about as bad (or good) as "The 10th Victim."

Interesting ideas, but not really thought out.

The Hunt is an interesting idea, but Sheckley never convinced me
that it could ever develop to the extent portrayed in his books.
And perhaps more importantly, he didn't seem to realize that the
Hunt, being an important part of his social world should make that
world different from ours in some fundamental ways.  He touched on a
few in the stories but it seemed more of a shallow, surface job.

The books seemed more like an excuse to make bad thrillers into
science fiction novels by setting them in the context of the "Hunt".

I hope his other books are better than these.  If not, I hope his
publisher wises up and saves us all a few trees.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #48
Date: 27 Jan 88 1211-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1211-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 28 Jan 1988     Volume 13 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:

             Books - Lewis (4 msgs) & Tolkien (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 88 16:42 EST
From: RANDOM/HAMPSHIRE COLLEGE
From: <DPARMENTER%HAMPVMS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: C.S. Lewis

Well, I suppose it's a matter of opinion.  My father originally read
them to me when I was about 7, in published order.  I didn't learn
of Lewis' chronology until some years later when I was in the mood
to read them again.  Part of the fun of Narnia is in rereading them
in different order to gain new perspectives on things. Reading THaHB
after TLTWATW is nice, because it takes place during the reign of
the Pevensie children.  Many friends of Narnia agree that it's a
pity that there weren't more purely Narnian stories like THAHB.

>'The Magician's Nephew' and 'The Last Battle' aren't really part of
>the Narnia story per se.  They tell you where Narnia came from and
>what happened to it, but you wouldn't care so much if you didn't
>love Narnia to begin with.

TLB has the darkest vision of all of the Narnia books.  The scenes
with Tash remain in my mind as some of the most frightening imagery
I've ever encountered in literature.  The happy ending, is of course
the happiest imaginable.  The term has ended, the holidays have
begun.  TMN is wonderful due in part to the wonderfully inventive
Wood Between the Worlds, which ranks very highly on my list of
imaginary places I would want to visit (after Narnia itself of
course!!),

>My personal favorites are 'The Voyage of the Dawn Treader' and 'The
>Silver Chair'.  TLTWATW is very good, but is more juvenile than
>TVOTDT and TSC.  So, for that matter, are AHAHB and TMN.  I don't
>much care for the 'The Last Battle' -- it's good in spots, but only
>in spots.

There is so much to recommend all of these books that naming a
favorite would be impossible.  If pressed though, I will probably
agree on TVOTDT.  Eustace Clarence Scrubb's redemption is one of the
most moving elements in the whole series.

Me, I always wondered why Polly Plummer and Digory never married.
Ah well.

Speaking of Lewis...

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICS.UCI.ED>
>Now, for what I really want to ask: how do people feel about the
>Silent Planet series ("Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and
>"That Hideous Strength", also by C. S. Lewis)?  Personally, I think
>it should probably be placed on the list of recommendations, but
>I'm interested in what the general reaction would be.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  These are wonderful.  The
descriptions of Perelandra and Malacandra are among the most
evocative descriptions of alien worlds I've ever read.  Read 'The
Dark Tower' as well.  Stunning.

C.S. Lewis is one of my family's all time favorite authors, and we
never tire of recommending these books to people.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 01:18:15 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l
From: DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

Regarding the order of the Narnian books: There are several good
reasons to read them in the order written (rather than in
chronological order).  One is the "development" Richard Harter
cites; another is the references in THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW to THE
LION etc.; it's far from being a 'spoiler,' but if you haven't read
LION you won't understand them.

One other is that (as anyone with any knowledge of Western culture
who reads them figures out right away) they are dramatisations of
mainstream Christian theology, and the ideas presented in them
increase in complexity as Lewis becomes more comfortable with the
form.

Dan Parmenter:
>Many friends of Narnia agree that it's a pity that there weren't
>more purely Narnian stories like THAHB.

Absolutely!  And how many of us at some point (in adolesence, in my
case) set out to write their own...?

Richard Harter:
>>'The Magician's Nephew' and 'The Last Battle' aren't really part
>>of the Narnia story per se.  They tell you where Narnia came from
>>and what happened to it, but you wouldn't care so much if you
>>didn't love Narnia to begin with.

I disagree completely; they are very much part of the "Narnia"
story.  The only one which might be excused from that is HORSE; all
the other books are connected by the thread of the Sons of Adam and
Daughters of Eve who come to aid Narnia in her various dark times,
and all of whom know each other (through several different sorts of
relationships).  Indeed, BATTLE has (for me) the single most
poignant moment of the series, when we discover that Susan P. has
"fallen away" from her faith with Narnia.

I'll also second the nomination of DAWN TREADER as the most-fun book
of the set.  I enjoy puzzling out Lewis's "meanings," and there's
more in DAWN TREADER every time I look; each of the places visited
has at least one "point" to make.

I'll also second (or third) Alistair Milne's recommendation of the
"Space Trilogy."  Alistair: I remember some very interesting
comments on your part a while back during the Tolkien debates.  Are
you (or any other Lewis/Tolkien lovers out there) aware of something
called the Mythopoeic Society?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 05:12:50 GMT
From: ur-tut!syap@rutgers.edu (James Fitzwilliam)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

Some of my favorite moments in the space trilogy are the
descriptions of the descending planets in Hideous Strength; they are
some of the clearest, most insightful portrayals of the traditional
astrological characteristics of the planets I have yet seen.  I read
the passage aloud to two friends who love astrology (the real
astrology, not the trash in the newspaper) and they were deeply
moved.  I was always impressed by the fact that as truth-seeking an
individual as Lewis kept an open mind on astrology.  ("But Sire, if
Aslan had really arrived, all the most gracious stars would be
assembled in His honor." -- The Last Battle) This helped me overcome
my own resistance to the idea that there might, after all, be
something to it.

Then, there's the end of Perelandra.  No summary will do justice to
it, any more than you can describe Bach's B Minor Mass.

I always loved Dawn Treader.  There is real magic in that book.

Hideous Strength and Last Battle are more difficult than the others.
They pass through much darker evil to arrive at greater good, but
that passage can be very draining.  Parts of Last Battle are
heartbreaking, as none of the other Narnia books are.  But this
leads to even greater joy in the end -- all that is good, and real,
is saved; all that is evil is overcome, and everyone is home at last
in the REAL Narnia.

I guess this is rather like Lord of the Rings.  Two Towers is hard
reading.  Many fantasies get caught up in fancy magic and
swashbuckling Excalibur- waving, but Lord of the Rings has real
characters expending real drudgery and effort to accomplish things.
Frodo and Sam have to walk to Mordor, they don't hop a lift on a
passing dragon.  (-:

James
arpa: syap@tut.cc.rochester.edu
uucp: rochester!ur-tut!syap

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 17:28:55 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l
From: DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

syap@tut.cc.rochester.edu (James Fitzwilliam) writes:
>Well, I'm a Lewis/Tolkien fanatic, and I'll bite.  What is the
>Mythopoeic Society and how does one enter the wardrobe?

THE MYTHOPOEIC SOCIETY

In the '60s, an organization called "The Tolkien Society of America"
was active throughout the land.

In the early '70s, it collapsed.  Its principal successor is the
Mythopoeic Society.

The MS was founded by (I kid you not) Glen Goodknight of Southern
California.  Its charter, taken literally, is to discuss the work of
"J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Charles Williams" -- the fantasists
involved in Lewis's circle, the "Inklings."

Activities include the publication of a monthly newsletter
(MYTHPRINT) and a quarterly journal of scholarly works (MYTHLORE);
monthly meetings by geographically-local "branches" to discuss some
work of fantasy; annual conventions (MythCon); and special interest
groups, such as the Mythopoeic Linguistic Fellowship.

While the official charter is to study the works of the Inklings,
most branches have expanded the actual field of their study, by
including the larger field of fantasy literature in general.  The
Society's central organizing body, the "Council of Stewards," has
acknowledged the independence of the branches while maintaining a
loosely-knit governing function which provides the magazines and the
conventions.

For further information, you may write the Society at:
   P.O. Box 6707
   Alta Dena, CA  91001

Subscription to either journal includes one year's Society
membership.

Mythcon 1988 will be held in Berkeley, CA from 29 July to 1 August.
For information write to:
   Mythcon XIX
   90 El Camino Real
   Berkeley, CA  94705

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 21:01:22 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Thomas Uffner)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis vs. Tolkien

syap@tut.cc.rochester.edu (James Fitzwilliam) writes:
>Hideous Strength and Last Battle are more difficult than the
>others.  They pass through much darker evil to arrive at greater
>good, but that passage can be very draining.  Parts of Last Battle
>are heartbreaking, as none of the other Narnia books are.  But this
>leads to even greater joy in the end -- all that is good, and real,
>is saved; all that is evil is overcome, and everyone is home at
>last in the REAL Narnia.
>
>I guess this is rather like Lord of the Rings.  Two Towers is hard
>reading.  Many fantasies get caught up in fancy magic and
>swashbuckling Excalibur- waving, but Lord of the Rings has real
>characters expending real drudgery and effort to accomplish things.
>Frodo and Sam have to walk to Mordor, they don't hop a lift on a
>passing dragon.

Did you read the same LOTR I did? One huge difference is that
Tolkien wasn't anywhere near as overbearing with the Christian
symbolism. I found The Two Towers just as much a pleasure to read as
the rest of his books.

Other major differences were the fact that after the "final battle"
all that is evil was not overcome - just Sauron. At this point
instead of everything being perfect, happy & everyone being saved
etc. in LOTR all that is magic and wonderful begins to fade and
eventually is lost completely. Sure, the war is won, the world is
saved, but the Hobbits still have to *walk* home and rebuild the
Shire. Then after Aragorn's crowning all of the elves, etc. leave
the world to the men. In LOTR all of the really heartbreaking scenes
are at the end. Much more realistic than Lewis. (Also a lot more fun
to read if you don't happen to be a rabid, fanatical Christian)

Tom
Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 02:38:08 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis vs. Tolkien

tom@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Tom Uffner) writes:
>Did you read the same LOTR I did? One huge difference is that
>Tolkien wasn't anywhere near as overbearing with the Christian
>symbolism. I found The Two Towers just as much a pleasure to
>read as the rest of his books.

   Tolkien really isn't very Christian (as an author).  The only
themes that are 'Christian' in character are the origins mythos in
the Silmarillion and the general notion of evil as being diminishing
and uncreative.  If I am not mistaken, Middle Earth was intended to
be pre-Christian.

>Other major differences were the fact that after the "final battle"
>all that is evil was not overcome - just Sauron. At this point
>instead of everything being perfect, happy & everyone being saved
>etc. in LOTR all that is magic and wonderful begins to fade and
>eventually is lost completely. Sure, the war is won, the world is
>saved, but the Hobbits still have to *walk* home and rebuild the
>Shire. Then after Aragorn's crowning all of the elves, etc. leave
>the world to the men. In LOTR all of the really heartbreaking
>scenes are at the end. much more realistic than Lewis. (Also a lot
>more fun to read if you don't happen to be a rabid, fanatical
>Christian)

Can't much agree.  _The Last Battle_ is specifically intended to be
apocalyptic, with the final judgement, and all.  It is not a "happy
ever after" ending in the S&S "gronk the barbarian slays the evil
sorceror, wins the winsome princess, and everyone lives happily ever
after with mead and honey flowing out their ears" tradition.

What I really don't agree with is the "rabid, fanatical christian"
crack.  I'm not a Christian, but the Christian mythos doesn't
disturb me, any more than Hindu mythology or Shintoism does.  The
only criticism of C.S. Lewis that I would make is that he never
quite understood the difference between being and Oxford don and
being a Christian. :-)

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 21:30:40 GMT
From: stucki@mac.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J. Stucki)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis vs. Tolkien

I'm a great fan of both Lewis and Tolkien and have done extensive
research into their works and their lives. Being a Christian myself
I have to disagree with you both. I consider Tolkien to be one of
the *most* Christian authors of fantasy/SF right alongside of Lewis.
The greatest difference between them was not in the degree of
Christianity within their works, but in their respective methods of
presentation.

   Lewis tended to prefer direct allegory in his books, that closely
paralleled the Christian mythos. In this way his stories seemed to
point out or highlight portions of the stories in the Old and New
Testaments.  He also was interested in questions like: "What would
have happened if Adam and Eve had resisted the temptaion in the
garden of Eden? What course would humanity have taken?" It was ideas
or questions like this that inspired Perelandra, et al.

   On the other hand Tolkien disliked intensely the whole concept of
allegory, and was not shy in insisting that tLotR was by no means an
allegory of Christianity or anything else. Now this is not to say
that he didn't consider his work to be Christian. Anyone who has read
Letters by H. Carpenter will have noticed the pages of theological
exposition Tolkien gave to his readers on tLotR and how various
themes he presented were based on Christian ideas and theology. The
entire Middle-Earth story takes place on the distant pre-history,
long before Christ was ever on the scene - even before Abraham would
be my guess. So although there is no direct reference to Biblical
events, his myths are to a certain extent compatible with the
"spirit" of Biblical doctrine, even if there are some obvious
concrete contradictions. As far as I understand it this was
Tolkien's whole intent. To present a "myth structure" for his
country and people without compromising his Christian belief
structure in the process.

David J Stucki
P.O. Box 713 Park Hall
110 W. 11th Ave.

------------------------------

Date: 01/26/88 13:17:40 EST
From: #GGGALA%WMMVS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Tolkien

    This concerns the statement made about Tolkien not having a
perfect trilogy.  True, Tolkien did have a few bugs in his writing,
but one has to consider the length and depth of the books that he
wrote.  He went into a lot of detail, so it would be foolish for
someone to expect the books to be absolutely perfect.  Besides that
reason, Tolkien was human as we all are, so he could make mistakes
just as well as the rest of us.  One last reason for not expecting a
perfect trilogy would have to be that he died during the writing of
the series and the books to explain them.  That in itself is reason
enough for the bugs in his writing.  Overall, and I stress the word
*overall, the series is extremely well-written, and well-thought.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #49
Date: 27 Jan 88 1237-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1237-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 29 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Lewis & Niven (7 msgs) &
                          Sallis & Williams

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 88 14:16:29 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: C.S. Lewis, also Madeline L'Engle

Lewis's space trilogy is way up on my personal list of favorites.
They aren't light reading by any measure.  One must take the time to
concentrate and absorb all that's going on.  Some people would be
put off by the Christian overtones, but I thought that he worked
them in to the stories very well---they wouldn't make much sense
without those elements.  I highly recommend that the books be read
in order: "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", then "That
Hideous Strength".  This is especially critical with the last book.
I have heard of "The Dark Tower" but haven't has a chance to
actually read it.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 88 10:50 EST
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #35

Greg Porter quoting Niven:
>    Dear Greg,
>       Officially: there's been a coincidence in names.  Carlos
>   Wu's son entrusted to Beowulf Shaeffer, is no relation to Louis
>   Wu of RINGWORLD.  Among thirty-odd billion people you may expect
>   such repetitions.
>      Unofficially: I should have made it clear by giving the kids
>   different names.
>
>    Best wishes,
>    Larry Niven

I for one don't believe this for a second.  I think Niven originally
intended Bey's foster-son (call him LW1) and the explorer of
Ringworld (LW2) to be the same person.  But LW2 is ignorant of
things LW1 could hardly avoid knowing.  I suspect Niven just forgot
and screwed up.  Now he's trying to cover his blunder by saying that
LW1 and LW2 were never meant to be the same guy.

The blunder having been made, however, we should just accept Niven's
patch and have done with it.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 17:56:07 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>...In Larry Niven's "Neutron Star" (a story which loses its entire
>point from the physics being wrong) the description of the tidal
>stretching effect is bananas. No part of the spaceship would be
>safer than any other and crawling to the middle would leave you
>exposed to tidal forces of the same intensity. In fact the story
>makes a sociological howler even worse than the physical one - a
>culture that can send people within a few miles of a neutron star
>and which forgets elementary Newtonian gravitation theory? Come off
>it.

The physics is not wrong in that sense.  The tidal forces on a
person remain small as long as the person remains small, but when a
person is far from the center of mass of the ship, the tidal forces
cause the person to be pulled radially away from the c.m. with a
force proportional to the distance from the c.m.  It's not the fall
which kills you, it's the sudden stop as you hit the hull (or the
slow pressure of gravity if you start at the hull).

Puppeteers live on a planet with no moon, so tides are not an
important part of their life.  Besides, they're only risking money
and the lives of Humans, not their own lives.  You may have a point
for the original crew though, but when you're protected by a General
Products Hull, you tend to feel invulnerable.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 18:36:50 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: No Peace for Louis Wu

>PORTERG@vcuvax.BITNET (Greg Porter) writes:
>A while back there was a bit of genealogical controversy as to who
>is Wu, and who isn't.  The hopefully last words on the subject
>follow, being a transcript of a letter I just got on the subject.
>
>Dear Greg,
>        Officially: there's been a coincidence in names.  Carlos Wu's
>son entrusted to Beowulf Shaeffer, is no relation to Louis Wu of
>RINGWORLD.  Among thirty-odd billion people you may expect such
>repetitions.
>        Unofficially: I should have made it clear by giving the kids
>different names.
>
>Best wishes,
>Larry Niven
>
>May the matter rest in peace.

I'm afraid it won't.  Such coincidences abound in the real world,
but not in fictional ones; when the same name appears twice is
similar contexts the reader is gonna assume that both references are
to the same person, as Niven certainly knew when he wrote "The
Borderland of Sol", the story that connects Shaeffer with Wu.  The
business of there being a second Louis Wu is even harder to swallow
when you remember that Child Louis never appears and is such a minor
character he doesn't even *need* a name!

Obviously what has happened here is that Niven has made another one
of his famous mistakes.  In this case, he tried to tie together two
generations of his Known Space universe (a common device in this
sort of SF) and didn't realize until too late the inconsistencies
the extra connection introduced.  I, for one, don't really worry too
much about loose ends (you can never resolve them all, as Dr.
Watson's wife is always telling me), and I certainly can't hold
Niven's goof against him (it's hard to keep 8 billion people
straight, never mind a baker's dozen of alien races and a hundred
inhabited planets).  What bothers me isn't the mistake, but that
Niven won't admit that he made it.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 19:22:59 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) writes:
>jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>...In Larry Niven's "Neutron Star" [...]the description of the
>>tidal stretch- ing effect is bananas. No part of the spaceship
>>would be safer than any other and crawling to the middle would
>>leave you exposed to tidal forces of the same intensity.

As David correctly points out, this is not incorrect on Niven's
part.  It is true enough that one end of the astronaut's body will
be pulled away from the other end with roughly the same force no
matter where in the ship the astronaut is (as is pointed out in the
story), but at the end of the ship the astronaut would be pushed
against any restraining ship structure with far, far, far greater
force than would be the case at the center.  That is, one end of the
astronaut is pulled from the other much the same amount wherever the
astronaut is, but a person at one end of the *ship* is pulled much
more forcefully away from the center *of* *the* *ship* than is a
person nearer the center.

>>In fact the story makes a sociological howler even worse than the
>>physical one - a culture that can send people within a few miles
>>of a neutron star and which forgets elementary Newtonian
>>gravitation theory? Come off it.
> Puppeteers live on a planet with no moon, so tides are not an
> important part of their life.  Besides, they're only risking money
> and the lives of Humans, not their own lives.  You may have a
> point for the original crew though, but when you're protected by a
> General Products Hull, you tend to feel invulnerable.

This is, perhaps, minimally plausible.  But remember: the puppeteers
put this puzzle ("what near a neutron star can penetrate a GP hull
and kill the humans inside?") to the human staff of the Jinx
Institute of Science (or whatever the name of that group who had
discovered the first non-pulsar neutron star), and they had also
come up with no solution.  It also seems to me that even minimal
logging, telemetry, or forensic investigation would pretty clearly
point out the culprit.  So, while the science is fairly correct, I'd
have to rate the plausibility of it as a "mystery" as practically
nil.

Further, the "deduction" that the puppeteer world has no moon from
the fact that they overlooked tides of this magnitude is rather
silly.  After all, 1) humans also overlooked this, and they have a
moon, 2) tides are normally not something that one thinks of as
dangerous, or a problem of such magnitude, so the notion of "tides"
as a danger is pretty completely separate from "tides" as a
beachfront phenomenon, And 3) the puppeteers, when they pack up and
leave Known Space, use techniques that pretty damn sure involved
accounting for tides.  All in all, the whole "puppeteers are blind
to tides" idea just doesn't make sense.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 01:00:30 GMT
From: prefect!moore@rutgers.edu (Peter X Moore)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

This is from memory, but I believe the point was that the particular
puppeteer was not immediately familar with the phenomenon of tides,
but instead remembered them vaguely, AS IF THEY WERE ONLY OF
THEORETIC INTEREST.  From this, Beowulf concluded this puppeter
couldn't have been raised on a planet with tides, so the puppeteer
planet either didnt have a moon (or had a very small one or the
puppeteer was a naive landlubber).  Think of it as an inspired bluff
on his part that wasn't any risk.

Also, let me confirm the defense of Niven's physics.  Assume a
1g/meter local gravity gradient.  The center of mass (CM) of the
ship is in proper orbit, so you (a 2 meter person modeled as a
uniform cylinder) would feel a g at head and foot if you straddled
the CM, with a peak tension at your stomach as if you were hanging
by your hands in half a gee.  If you fall to one end of your 40
meter craft, you will suddenly feel 20 g's trying to force you out
of the end of the ship and in to an orbit appropriate for your
distance from the neutron star and your orbital velocity.

Peter Moore
moore@Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 23:31:49 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhya!whh@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Niven's math was: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

*sigh*.  As I recall from when I read the story when it first came
out, Niven specified that the ship passed 1 mile from the neutron
star.  At that time I computed the tidal stress on Schaeffer (it
goes as 1/(r**3)) from the data in the story and came out with a
figure of 10**6 g/meter.  And that level of stress I don't care
where Schaeffer is in the ship--he'll become a thin layer at at
least one end of it.  Remember that in the story, equipment was
ripped loose, so Niven was aware that there were some fairly
powerful tidal forces at work, but I don't think he actually
computed them.

As for instuments--the toughest one I've read about is an
accellerometer unit that will measure up to 20,000 g.  What would be
left of the instruments installed in a 300 foot hull after the above
treatment?

On a related topic--in "Ringworld" it is implied (but not stated)
that merely be on the ring--much is made of the ring material being
impervious to ALL forms particle and radiation emissions.  He also
describes the core-explosion fireball as being 5,000 ly in diameter
and the ring is 30,000 ly from the core.  The ring plane is
specified as aligning exactly with the center of the core.  My
conclusion?  That the author intends the ring to block
the--otherwise deadly--radiation from the core explosion.  But wait!
The core explosion will have a visual diameter of about 30 degrees,
while the ring is 1 million miles wide and has diameter of about
(mumble, mumble) 20 MINUTES of arc.  Going to pretty isn't it?  A
thin dark line--a little less than the width of the moon--crossing a
large bright (deadly) fireball.

Oh, and by the way figure out how fast the ring has to turn to get 1
g on the surface.

I won't even go into the ring instability that was *fixed* in
"Ringworld Engineers" . . .

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{dual,qantel,ihnp4}ptsfa!pbhya!whh

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 19:08:54 GMT
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (David Palmer) writes:
>The physics is not wrong in that sense.  The tidal forces on a
>person remain small as long as the person remains small, but when a
>person is far from the center of mass of the ship, the tidal forces
>cause the person to be pulled radially away from the c.m. with a
>force proportional to the distance from the c.m.  It's not the fall
>which kills you, it's the sudden stop as you hit the hull (or the
>slow pressure of gravity if you start at the hull).

The physics is most certainly wrong.  You seem to have misunderstood
it.  The neutron star, not the ship, is what is crushing you.  You
are no safer at the center of the ship than at the ends.  In fact.
If you were just floating in space in a spacesuit without a ship,
you would still be crushed.  Tidal forces arise from the fact that
there is a gravitational gradient across you - your feet are closer
to the star than your head, you your feet are attracted more
strongly.  The result is that your body is put under tension.  On
earth, this is negligible for people, but close to a neutron star,
you'll get ripped to shreds.  Now that's just the radial part which
stretches you out.  Then, there is also compression from the sides.
Draw a line from your left shoulder to the center of the earth.  Now
do the same for your right shoulder.  Compare these with a line
drawn from your center of mass to the center of the earth.  These
lines are not parallel.  With respect to the force acting at your
center of mass, the force at your right shoulder has a leftward
component, and vice versa for your other shoulder.  Thus, you are
being compressed.  Again, on Earth it is negligible.  But near a
neutrobn star, where gravity is very intense, you will find yourself
being stretched radially, and compressed tangentially, and there's
notheing you can do except to get away fast.  Remember, matter is
matter, and the ship will (proportionally) be under just as much
tidal stress as you.

Whew!
Physics flame off (sorry for this folks.)

>Puppeteers live on a planet with no moon, so tides are not an
>important part of their life.  Besides, they're only risking money
>and the lives of Humans, not their own lives.  You may have a point
>for the original crew though, but when you're protected by a
>General Products Hull, you tend to feel invulnerable.

That's a very good point - but neutron stars have been known and
have fascinated people since our time.  Oh well, I should stop
nitpicking, physics aside, I'd love to write as good as Niven.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 20:42:03 GMT
From: mcb@tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Whatever happened to James Sallis?

I was looking through my copy of THE BEST OF ORBIT (a wonderful
anthology, by the way, probably out of print; more interesting even
than the stories are the snippets of author/editor and
editor/publisher correspondence that editor Damon Knight included
between stories) and there was a fair amount of correspondence
involving or referring to Sallis, and one or two stories including
the excellent (and controversial) "Jim and Mary G".  Haven't heard
about him in a while...  anybody have any info?

Michael C. Berch
mcb@tis.llnl.gov
{ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 07:11:56 GMT
From: dmadeo@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (David Madeo)
Subject: Other books by Paul O. Williams

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>This is a collection of seven books in the Heart River stories (I
>guess they're called the Pelbar Cycle now) by Paul O. Williams, an
>english professor at Principia College in Illinois.  They are:
   [list of books in the Pelber Cycle deleted]
>but I thoroughly enjoyed them, and the characters he developed.

I've only seen this series in one bookstore and loved it as well.  I
was wondering if anyone had heard of any other books/short stories
he may have written and/or hopefully published.

Thanks in advance
David
UUCP: dmadeo@lehi3b15.UUCP
BIT:  drm4@lehigh.bitnet
INTR: zdrmade@vax1.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1, unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #50
Date: 27 Jan 88 1330-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1330-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 29 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony & L'Engle & McGloughlin &
                     L. Neil Smith (2 msgs) & Varley &
                     Wyndham (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                     Inferno (3 msgs) & Hard Wired (2 msgs) &
                     Science in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 10:18 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Post-holocaust fantasy

> While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
> know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am
> especially interested in works where most or all of the population
> of the Earth has been destroyed, but mostly I'm just asking for
> general information.

Does _Battle Circle_ by Piers Much-hated-and-despised Anthony
qualify ?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 88 14:16:29 CST
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Madeline L'Engle

Those of you who enjoyed Madeline L'Engle's book "A Wrinkle in Time"
probably already know that that is the first book of a trilogy---the
other books being "A Wind in the Door" and "A Swiftly Tilting
Planet".  She has added a fourth book to this series: "Many Waters".
These all deal with the battle of "good" versus "evil" in a Science
Fantasy setting (much like Lewis does, which is what made me think
of them).  Excellent reading for young adults (10 and up).  I just
read "Many Waters" recently and really enjoyed it.  She hasn't lost
her touch.

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 88 13:33:59 PLT
From: Will Fitzpatrick <60255873%WSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Post-Holocaust fantasy

>While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone
>know of any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy? I am
>especially interested in works where most or all of the population
>of the Earth has been destroyed,...

   'The Helix and the Sword' by John ?Mcgloughlin? (Not sure how the
last name is spelled).  It's set in our universe, with no magic or
anything, but it is written in the style of a 19th century travel
tale.  I consider it a wonderful blend of Fantasy and SF.  Wonderful
prose, and very entertaining characterizations.
     The book is set some 6 thousand years after a nuclear war
destroy almost all life on earth.  The human civilizations of the
time live entirely in space, in symbiosis with genetically
engineered creatures who allow them to survive in the void.  The
actual level of technology is like that of 16th century Europe.  One
of the best books (SF or Fantasy) I've read...

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 21:44:34 GMT
From: decvax!chaos!uokmax!rmtodd@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Richard Michael
From: Todd)
Subject: L. Neil Smith

ccs023@deneb.ucdavis.edu.UUCP (Robert Giedt) writes:
>He has also written many other books, most of which are set in an
>alternate earth future.  I recommend them highly, especially the
>first book...
>  The Probability Broach
>  The Venus Belt (a little slow)
>  Tom Paine Maru
>  The Gallatin Divergence
>Other books by L. Neil Smith:
>  The Nagasaki Vector
>  Their Majesties' Bucketeers (out of print)

Just a bit of clarification here: The other two books you mention
are also part of the same series in that they involve the same
universe (the North American Confederacy).  In _The Nagasaki
Vector_, a time/space ship from our own future accidentally gets
blown into the alternate timeline.  Edward Bear, the character from
_The Probability Broach_, et al, also appears in _The Nagasaki
Vector_.  _Their Majesties' Bucketeers_ deals with the planet Sodde
Lydfe(sp?) and events on that planet some 20 yrs before they are
contacted by the Earth ship _Tom Paine Maru_ (as described in the
book of the same name).
  I liked all of these books (except for The Probability Broach,
which I have yet to find), but fair warning: if you can't stand
writers with strong Libertarian beliefs, you definitely won't like
L. Neil Smith.

Richard Todd
820 Annie Court
Norman OK 73069
{allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 05:49:53 GMT
From: troly@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith

Hardly a surprise anyway. At one point something I say could be
considered a spoiler by some.

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP () writes:
 [recommendations for books by L. Neil Smith]

 I've read 2 books by L. Neil Smith, _The Probability Broach_ and
_Tom Paine Maru_ and I want to warn the net that they are really
god-awful.  Richard Todd says that some people might be put off by
L. Neil Smith's strong libertarian views. I have strong libertarian
views but I am put off by L. Neil Smith's lousy writing. He attempts
to capture the zaniness of _Illuminatus!_ and fails badly, partially
because he lacks a sense of humor. The plots are mechanical and
obvious. The characters are cardboard, but apparently it's a chore
for him to think up even cardboard characters.  He reuses the same
cut-outs for his characters in _Tom Paine Maru_ that he used in _The
Probability Broach_.
   He preaches incessantly. I can testify from experience that even
libertarian anarcho-capitalist choir boys like me are ready to throw
vegetables at him after a few chapters of this. (Preaching isn't
necessarilly bad. E.g., in Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_ the preaching
moves the story and is an integral part of it. But Smith's preaching
is *bad* preaching.)
   For example, both of these stories uses a female character
cut-out who is a *fanatical* anarchist.  She is initially extremely
hostile to the initially non-anarchist male lead cut-out and is
forever pontificating on the evils of government.  Eventually of
course he gets converted and they live happily ever after. Now this
female cut-out has led all her life in an anarcho-capitalist utopia,
which has been long established. So why is she so vituperative? It's
much as if a modern American would fly into violent rages at the
thought of the crimes committed by the British monarchy during the
American revolution.
   (Notice that the last paragraph of mine reviews *both* books!)
   Near the end of the _Probability Broach_ he includes a badly
written sex scene. I think he figured he should because he noticed
that _Illuminatus_ contained a lot of sex. Of course he didn't
understand *why* _Illuminatus_ had a lot of sex.  I have nothing
against sex and a great deal for it, so why do I bring this up? I
say the scene is badly written, but then the whole book is badly
written. -The point is that at the end of the book he reveals that
the whole book is a letter by the hero to a political party. The
book is written nothing like such a letter; and such a letter would
not contain blow by blow (pun) descriptions of his sexual activities
with his fiance.
   If you still want to waste a few bucks and a number of hours on
these books, go ahead, BUT DON'T BLAME ME!

troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 88 12:15 EDT
From: <SFLOVERS%smith.bitnet@rutgers.edu>
Subject: re: post-holocaust fiction

Shame on all of you.  How could a discussion of post-holocaust
fiction not mention John Varley's story "The Manhattan Phone Book
(Abridged)"?  It's found in _Blue Champagne_.  If you like
post-holocaust fiction, you really should read this story.  It will
make you stop and think...and maybe...

Enough.  No spoilers.  I think that everyone who reads
post-holocaust fiction should read this story.

For anyone out there who HAS read it, what did you think?

Mary Malmros

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 88 18:53:13 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: JOHN WYNDHAM

Back in the 9th grade in high school (over in the Middle East), I
read THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS by John Wyndham.

It is one of the best books I have ever read, and so when I was
assigned a project of writing a screenplay I decided to adapt this
novel (yes, I know it's already been done, but that was terrible!).

The point is, I hunted far and wide to find this book, the library
had never heard of him, no-one I knew had ever heard of him...  is
he at all popular here?

I finally found the book in a DEL REY edition, but the first
printing was 1986, 35 years after it was first written. That book
(and any of his others) have not made it here for *35* years.

Maybe I'm just being an idiot about this, but I still think his work
(THE MIDWICH CUCKOOS, THE CRACKEN WAKES, what was the one about
mutation in the future) is some of the best, um, sci-fi (?) ever
written.

Anyone agree with me?

amit

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 06:29:19 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

finesse@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Amit Malhotra) writes:
>I finally found the book in a DEL REY edition, but the first
>printing was 1986, 35 years after it was first written. That book
>(and any of his others) have not made it here for *35* years.

This isn't true - much of Wyndham has been sporadically in print
here since I was in junior high - some twenty-five years ago.  He's
never been particularly successful here, in terms of staying in
print forever, but his work has been available.  Check a good SF
specialty store that carries used books.

Oh - for libraries, try "Harris", which is, I believe, John
Wyndham's actual name, Wyndham being a pseudonym.

>Maybe I'm just being an idiot about this, but I still think his
>work (THE MIDWICH CUCKOOS, THE CRACKEN WAKES, what was the one
>about mutation in the future) is some of the best, um, sci-fi (?)
>ever written.
>
>Anyone agree with me?

That's SF, but yes, I do agree.  Excellent writing.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 22:10:27 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fantasy

Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_ sort of fits in this category.  It isn't
Earth, and there hasn't really been a holocaust, but it *feels* like
that kind of story.  This book is highly recommended.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 03:55:54 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Book search, post-holocaust fantasy

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_ sort of fits in this category.  It
>isn't Earth, and there hasn't really been a holocaust, but it
>*feels* like that kind of story.  This book is highly recommended.

   It is Earth, that much seems implied (though it may well be a
case of an alternate Earth, who can say?  )

   Other Zelazny books that are post Holocaust would be:

      This Immortal (or the original novela, "And Call Me Conrad..."
      Damnation Alley (or the original novella...)
      Today We Choose Faces (Fuzzy on this one, but I think it is)
      Several of his short-stories, see _The Doors of His Face, the
         Lamps of His Mouth_,  _Unicorn Variations_, and _The Last
         Defender of Camelot_.

That's all I get off the top of my head, there may be others.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 04:05:24 GMT
From: dmr@russell.stanford.edu (Daniel M. Rosenberg)
Subject: Science Fiction _Inferno_?

A while ago I read a science fiction version of Dante's _Inferno_,
with Hermann Goering leading the main character through Hell.

Who was it by? I tend to remember Niven/Pournelle, but am not sure.
And what was it called?

Any pointers appreciated.

Thanks,

Daniel M. Rosenberg
CSLI/Stanford University
1-415-323-0389
dmr@russell.stanford.edu
ihnp4!decwrl!labrea!russell!dmr

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 03:40:55 GMT
From: boojum@athena.mit.edu (Laura Baldwin)
Subject: Inferno

Inferno was written by Niven and Pournelle. Benito Mussolini was the
narrator's guide.

laura baldwin
boojum@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 04:35:40 GMT
From: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction _Inferno_?

Daniel M. Rosenberg writes:
>A while ago I read a science fiction version of Dante's _Inferno_,
>with Hermann Goering leading the main character through Hell.
>
>Who was it by? I tend to remember Niven/Pournelle, but am not sure.
>And what was it called?
>
>Any pointers appreciated.

   The name of the book you are looking for, is indeed called
_Inferno_, however, you have something wrong.  The person who leads
the main character around(ironically, an author), is Benny, or
Bennito Mussolini(sp?).  The authors of the book are Niven and
Pournelle, and I think they do a good job of envisioning Dante's
Hell.  If you have forgotten the book, buy it.  It's only 2-3.95 or
so(cheap!), and a good read for the money.

Colin
ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 21:49:59 GMT
From: hotline@ihlpe.att.com (Gilles)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever heard of this book?

> I also heard about a book where everybody goes around interfacing
> directly to computers, but it's a grimy, dirty world where people
> modify their bodies and stuff.  If anybody knows the title of
> this, I would appreciate it.

I just finished a book called "Hard Wired". The author escapes me
now, but the main plot is this guy, hooks up to his tank to run
contraban.  They talk all the time about plugging in.  This may be
it may not.  The book was good regardless if it is the one you are
looking for.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 05:51:20 GMT
From: lakesys!joe@rutgers.edu (Joe Pantuso)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever heard of this book?

hotline@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Gilles) writes:
>I just finished a book called "Hard Wired". The author escapes me
>now, but the main plot is this guy, hooks up to his tank to run
>contraban.  They talk all the time about plugging in.  This may be
>it may not.  The book was good regardless if it is the one you are
>looking for.

Hard Wired is prbably the book he is looking for.  It is by John
Walter Williams and he has another book out called "Voice of the
Whirlwind", also an increadible book.

It is possible though that he is thinking of "When Gravity Fails" or
the "Neuromancer" series (the names of the authors of both escape
me).

These are amazing books.  Give em a gander.

Joe Pantuso
1631 n. 69 St.
Wauwatosa WI  53213
joe@lakesys.UUCP
{ihnp4,uwvax}!uwmcsd1!lakesys!joe

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88  9:42 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Dotty science in SF

>A wonderful howler by someone who presumably never set foot in the
>southern hemisphere: in Edgar Pangborn's story "The Red Hills of
>Summer" there is the offhand statement "Prevailing winds in the
>southern hemisphere blew westward as on Earth". (A few lines later
>he makes it clear that he really means it by expecting deserts to
>be to the west of mountain ranges).
>
>Some other physics of a similar nature: in Rex Gordon's "No Man
>[...]  Anyone else got samples of dotty science in SF?

I remember a short story about a spaceship (probably a ramjet)
passing through the Solar system. The ship is going at 99.999.... %
of c, sort of like Anderson's Tau Zero; having a relativistic mass
equal to the Sun (or S.system or whatever). The really hilarious
thing in the story is how the Earth is affected : Simultaneously,
the people of northern Europe, N.America, Siberia,... are smacked
into the ground; the Australians, New Zealanders etc. suddenly find
themselves ten feet in the air; the people of Central Africa,
Brazil, the Banana Republics (can you spell "Equator" ? I knew you
couldn't) have the ground "pulled from under their feet" and the
unlucky ones crash into whatever hard objects are standing in the
way. What is the explanation for all this ? Guess what, the Earth
just moved ten feet to the north, pulled by the powerful
gravitational attraction of the spaceship ! Actually, I *didn't*
figure it out before it was spelled out, because such a roaringly
stupid solution never occurred to me.

Kai
quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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Summary-line: 27-Jan  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #51
Date: 27 Jan 88 1412-EST
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Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
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*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jan 88 1412-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #51
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SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 29 Jan 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:

                       Books - Wolfe (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 88 21:13:24 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Wolfe's vocabulary

Many folk on the net like the works of Gene Wolfe.  I have no
intention of saying they shouldn't, and have never really bothered
with the subject.  But, in a previous message, I unguardedly wrote:

   The hypothesis that Donaldson uses a thesaurus is a plausible
   one; he commits lots of blunders of the "'argent' is a posh word
   for 'white'" variety, leading one to suspect he doesn't
   accurately know the meanings of these fancy words.  But then, I
   get the same impression reading Wolfe, except the words are
   fancier.

This elicited a response from Michael Farren:

   Read "The Castle of the Otter".  Wolfe knows EXACTLY what all of
   those words means, and chose each one of them for good and
   sufficient reason.  Comparing Wolfe and Donaldson?  My mind reels
   :-)

Well, I was unable to hunt up a copy of that book, but did go back
to the first (& only) Wolfe work I ever finished, The Shadow of The
Torturer, and tried again.  This is the result of a careful reading
of the first three chapters, and is intended to discuss only the
point I originally raised: does Wolfe really know what those words
mean?

1. " 'And try to get through the barbican without a
safe-conduct?...' "

Through the gate, or portal, or entrance: yes.  But a barbican is
specifically a guard house built above a gate, and so, whereas one
can go under it, one cannot, unless one is a bat, propose to go
through it.

2. " 'To gather herbs, ... we are physicians' gallipots.' "

Literally, a gallipot is a small vessel.  It can be applied to a
person, as a term of disdain.  But it does not mean a physician's
helper or herb gatherer.  It means almost the opposite: an
apothecary, a seller of herbal remedies.

3. "I heard the ring of steel on stone, as if someone had struck one
of the grave markers with a badelaire."

The use of the french form of this loan word is strange, since there
is a perfectly good english form 'badelar'.  But why a badelar?  Its
distinguishing characteristic is its shape, and how can that affect
the sound it makes?  How would the sound of a cutlass or scimitar
differ?

4. "As if a dove had momentarily commanded an arctother..."

As far as I can make out, this is Wolfe's own coinage.  No problem
with that: english writers coin new greek words all the time, though
one would prefer them to be good greek, as 'arcticother' would have
been.  My problem is that, when I have gone to some trouble to
substitute 'polar bear' in the above sentence, I still do not know
what the image is supposed to convey, or why the odd word adds
anything to its meaning.

5. "The decades of a saros would not be long enough..."

A saros is just over 6585 days long, or about 18 years.  How many
decades does Wolfe think it is?

6. "Here it was a two-chain-wide expanse of blue nenuphars..."

And no doubt being grazed by a river hippopotamus while Mount
Fujiyama rises in the background!  I simply do not believe any
author - however devoted to the poetry of Flecker - can feel a
resistless aesthetic compulsion to write 'nenuphar' instead of
'water lily'.  But if he does, isn't he claiming some reasonable
acquaintance with it?  We expect anyone who writes 'Fujiyama' to
know that 'yama' is the japanese for 'mountain'; we expect anyone
who writes 'hippopotamus' to know that 'potamos' is the greek for
'river'.  Does Wolfe know that 'nila' is the sanskrit for 'blue',
and that 'nenuphar', from persian 'nilufar', from sanskrit 'nil-
utpala', means 'blue lotus', and that his adjective is otiose?

Those are the flashy ones.  In the same three chapters, Wolfe also
seems to believe that the space within a mausoleum is "small", that
one "binds" herbs in "sheaves", that a "chrisos" is "citrine", and
that one can carry a "corpse-candle". Again, it's only fair you have
my analyses:

(a) The funerary monument to Mausolos, King of Halikarnassos, built
    ca.  -350 by his widow Artemesia, was expensive, ugly, and
    useless.  It passed into history, and is called one of the Seven
    Wonders of the World, because it was also huge.  The main fact
    about a "mausoleum" - the point of the simile - is that it is
    excessively large.

(b) One binds corn into sheaves.  A writer able to bandy words like
   "gallipot" and "simple" should know that herbs are tied into
   "bouquets".

(c) The word should be "chrysos", of course.  Put a gold coin and a
    lemon side by side, and tell me if you think the former
    "citrine"

(d) A corpse candle is a will-o-the-wisp; burning marsh gas.  How
    would you propose to carry one?

So, over to you Wolfe fans.  Please tell me in as much detail as you
like why I'm wrong, and why you believe this person can write.  If,
in addition, you can explain that Amshaspend (which Wolfe spells
"amschaspand", as in "Schah of Persia" and "River Schalimar"), I'd
be most grateful, since it baffles me. In particular, please tell me
which of the six is intended: they have very different attributes.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 05:32:00 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's vocabulary

>Well, I was unable to hunt up a copy of that book, but did go back
>to the first (& only) Wolfe work I ever finished, The Shadow of The
>Torturer, and tried again.  This is the result of a careful reading
>of the first three chapters, and is intended to discuss only the
>point I originally raised: does Wolfe really know what those words
>mean?

It's from Zeising Brothers, 1982. OP. Also SFBC (my edition).

>1. " 'And try to get through the barbican without a
>safe-conduct?...' "
>
>Through the gate, or portal, or entrance: yes.  But a barbican is
>specifically a guard house built above a gate

Funny you should mention this one first. So did Wolfe, in the
chapter titled "Words Weird and Wonderful." To Quote: "A defensive
outwork protecting an entrance to a fortified place." 'quote above'
Drotte objects when Eata suggests they circle the necroplolis.
Guards would be stations in the barbican, of course."

Through the barbican implies going through the guards stationed at
the barbican, a fairly straight forward (to me) intepretation.
You're taking this one too literally.

>2. " 'To gather herbs, ... we are physicians' gallipots.' "
>
>Literally, a gallipot is a small vessel.

Wolfe claims: "An Old slang word for those assistants or apprentices
who pounded drugs, rolled pills, collected herbs, and so forth for
an apothecary"

>But it does not mean a physician's helper or herb gatherer.  It
>means almost the opposite: an apothecary, a seller of herbal
>remedies.

It does from Wolfe's research. It is also a proper definition
according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Your reference seems to
be incomplete here.

>3. "I heard the ring of steel on stone, as if someone had struck
>   one of the grave markers with a badelaire."
>The use of the french form of this loan word is strange, since
>there is a perfectly good english form 'badelar'.  But why a
>badelar?

Again, Wolfe: "A short, heavy, curved single-edged sword with
S-shaped quillions.  Wilkinson's 'Swords and Daggers' shows a
beautiful one in Plate 32."

>4. "As if a dove had momentarily commanded an arctother..."
>As far as I can make out, this is Wolfe's own coinage.

Wolfe: "A large bear, now extinct. ... Arctothers would make great
rugs"

>6. "Here it was a two-chain-wide expanse of blue nenuphars..."
>And no doubt being grazed by a river hippopotamus while Mount
>Fujiyama rises in the background!  I simply do not believe any
>author - however devoted to the poetry of Flecker - can feel a
>resistless aesthetic compulsion to write 'nenuphar' instead of
>'water lily'.

Why not? Wolfe enjoys, um, flowery language. At least you got the
definition right. It's a blue water lily. And it flows wonderfully
off the tongue.

>So, over to you Wolfe fans.  Please tell me in as much detail as
>you like why I'm wrong, and why you believe this person can write.
>If, in addition, you can explain that Amshaspend (which Wolfe
>spells "amschaspand", as in "Schah of Persia" and "River
>Schalimar"), I'd be most grateful, since it baffles me. In
>particular, please tell me which of the six is intended: they have
>very different attributes.

You've basically got two arguments. One, that Wolfe is misusing
words, and two, that he uses archaic or flowery words instead of
straightforward ones.

On the former, I've basically shown above that you're wrong. Castle
of the Otter has the background research for the vocabulary, and in
every case where he and you mention a word together, your research
(or interpretation) is incompletely or bad.

On the latter, it's pretty obvious you don't like Wolfe's writing,
and are trying to build a pseudo-objective argument against it. My
only response is: Fine. Don't read Wolfe, go read Piers Anthony or
someone else. But don't try to pull Wolfe down from his tower,
because there are those of us who DO like him the way he is.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 06:06:08 GMT
From: rfm%urth@sun.com (Rich McAllister)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's vocabulary

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:

>Well, I was unable to hunt up a copy of that book

I think they only printed 520 copies.

> barbican But a barbican is specifically a guard house built above
> a gate

Not according to the OED: "1. An outer fortification or defence to a
city or castle, esp. a double tower erected over a gate..."  So
Wolfe's use is certainly within the definition, and in fact follows
Spenser's usage: "Within the barbican a porter sate."

>gallipot

Wolfe says it means an apothecary's apprentice or assistant, the one
who gathers the herbs the apothecary sells.  This is certainly
consistent with several quotations in the OED, though the definition
is not clear.  I'd say Wolfe is OK here too.

>badelaire
>But why a badelar?

The game is to use strange English words instead of making up
things.  A "scimitar" might be the same thing in modern English, but
that would sound too prosaic.  Remember that the object in question
might be an energy weapon....

>arctother As far as I can make out, this is Wolfe's own coinage.

Wolfe says he never did this.  He says 'arctother' is a now-extinct
creature, so I assume that it was a word coined by a paleontologist
for some northern-dwelling fossil bear.

>when I have gone to some trouble to substitute 'polar bear' in the
>above sentence, I still do not know what the image is supposed to
>convey, or why the odd word adds anything to its meaning.

The creature in question is *not* a polar bear, which is why Wolfe
didn't call it that.

>A saros is just over 6585 days long, or about 18 years.  How many
>decades does Wolfe think it is?

Again, from the OED: "1. The Babylonian name for the number 3600,
and hence for a period of 3600 years."  The 18+ year meaning is
definition 2, and much more recent.  A lovely aside from the OED:
"This [18+ year] use is founded on the statement of Suidas (app. due
to some mistake) that the length of the saros was 18 1/2 years."

> blue nenuphars
>
>Does Wolfe know that 'nila' is the sanskrit for 'blue', and that
>'nenuphar', from persian 'nilufar', from sanskrit 'nil- utpala',
>means 'blue lotus', and that his adjective is otiose?

He certainly knows that nenuphars are blue (he says so in Castle of
the Otter.)  Again, he is applying this name to something which does
not currently exist; I suppose these future nenuphars have mutated
to a rainbow of colors.

>Wolfe also seems to believe that the space within a mausoleum is
>"small",

Well, it's Severian-the-apprentice who calls it that. It has room
for at least 5 coffins and has thick walls, so it sounds like a
pretty big thing to me.  Also, he actually says "smallness of the
room"; this seems to hint that this one room is not the whole
mausoleum.

>that one "binds" herbs in "sheaves"

This is just nitpicking.  OED says sheaves are bundles of "(corn,
etc.)"  so it's perfectly OK to have a bundle of sheaves.

>that a "chrisos" is "citrine"

Well, maybe Wolfe let the sound get ahead of the sense on this one.
At least he recognizes the sound is important, unlike Donaldson.

Rich McAllister

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 19:24:52 GMT
From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's vocabulary

I'll leave off the definitions of words that Gene Wolfe gave in _The
Castle of the Otter_, except to note that he defines "Amschaspand:
Very roughly, a Zoroastrian archangel.  There are six, and they
attend upon Ahura Mazda, the good god."  I will give some of the
relevant passages from the book:

[at the beginning of the "Words Wierd and Wonderful" chapter] "Every
since _The Shadow of the Torturer_ was published, people who like it
have been asking, 'Which words are real, and which are made-up?'
And people who don't ask, 'Why did you use so many funny words?'

The answers are that all the words are real, and I used odd words to
convey the flavor of an odd place at an odd time.  Some fans seem to
be able to tolerate any amount of gibberish, so long as it is
gibberish; but let a hard-working writer venture some perfectly
legitimate word like epopt, and - but I'd better stop before my
tears get my typewriter all rusty."

[later in the book, from a letter to his agent Virginia Kidd dated
February 13, 1979] "The odd mostly Greek and Latin terms take some
explaining, or at least deserve some.  Back in 1975 when I started,
it struck me that if an sf novel were laid on Earth there would be
no need to coin terms of the 'Tars Tarkas' sort to give it an alien
flavor - there were plenty of strange but perfectly good
'dictionary' words that could be used instead.  In writing the four
volumes I have been very careful with them, checking almost
everything in at least two references; but many of the books I've
used as sources are obscure, and anyone who tries to follow my
tracks is in for a wild time.  What I'm trying to say, I think, is
that you'll have to trust me unless you're willing to spend several
weeks on verification."

I think that this shows that Gene Wolfe *DID* do his homework in
using all those odd terms.  And I think that others have shown that
most of the terms you have called into question were properly used
(barbican, gallipots, badelaire, arctother, saros, nenuphars) even
if some of them haven't been specifically adressed (chrisos &
corpse-candle).  While there probably are some misused words in the
tetralogy (and Wolfe admits to the real possibility), it's still an
amazing series.

You did mention that _The Shadow of the Torturer_ is the only Wolfe
book you've read.  If his vocabulary is what puts you off, you might
try some of his other works.  Try _The Island of Doctor Death and
Other Stories and Other Stories_, or _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_
for short story collections, or _Free Live Free_ (a contemporary
fantasy) or _Soldier of the Mist_ (a story set in ancient Greece)
for novels.  I'ld recommend the story collections (in the listed
order) for a sampling of Wolfe.

John

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:

		  Administrivia - New Home for SF-LOVERS,
		  Films - The Quiet Earth (2 msgs) &
                          Blade Runner (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 17:03:10 EST
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Administrivia

 *GASP*....*CHOKE*...*WHEEZE*.... 

   The sounds you have just heard are the sounds of SF-LOVERS coming back
from the dead.  You see, as I warned you all about way back at the
beginning of the year about 40+ digests ago, SF-LOVERS has moved.  The old
machine, RED.RUTGERS.EDU has gone off to the great Network in the sky.
What I didn't warn you about (because I didn't know myself) is that it took
over a week to get everything set up on the new system.  Anyway, I *think*
everything is back to normail although it will take me a week or two to
catch up on the mail that has been sitting around in limbo for the last
week.  If you don't see the message you posted after a month, let me know
at the administrative address.  It could have gotten lost in The Grand
Shuffle.

   The new addresses are (drum roll, please) sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu
or sf-lovers-admin@rutgers.edu for ADMINISTRATIVE messages only.  I.e.
requests to be added or deleted from the list, requests for archive
information or back issues, etc.  Submissions (and *ONLY* submissions) go
to sf-lovers@rutgers.edu.

   At the present time, the archives and back issues are not available.
They are still off in limbo awaiting a place to land on the new machine.
Keep watching this space for future developments.

Saul

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jan 88 12:06:54 PST
From:     raoul@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV (Hey, I have big thighs!)
Subject: The Quiet Earth

   I just saw the movie "The Quiet Earth" on a friend's new VCR and
don't understand the ending.  Did the man "reincarnate" on Mars
after he tried to sacrifice himself?  The reason I think he appears
on Mars is that Saturn clearly rises over the horizon and is very
large and visible.  Since Mars would be possibly the next habitable
planet...

***** Spoiler warning *****

To jog your memories, the plot is about a man who one morning
discovers he's about the only man alive on earth.  Later he
discovers there is a red head woman and a black man who have also
survived.  There are hints of what might have happened (The "Grid"
the man was working on with the secretive Americans, Operation
Flashlight, The sun pulsing, The electron valence energy oscillating
between two diverging energy levels, etc) but nothing is certain.
It turns out these three people survived because they were about to
die when the "effect" happened.  At the end of the movie, they
decide to try to destroy this "grid".  They bring a truck loaded
with explosives to an antenna station that is evidently part of this
"grid".  They find out that this antenna station is spewing out
unhealthy microwaves so the man decides to sacrifice himself by
driving the truck into the antenna station and sets off the
explosives.  Later we find him on a beach with a huge Saturn like
planet coming over the horizon like a moon.  Reincarnation on Mars
is my best bet since Mars is closer to Saturn than the Earth...Eat
your heart out John Carter...

Al

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 20:53:01 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth

raoul@vlsi.jpl.nasa.GOV writes:
>    I just saw the movie "The Quiet Earth" on a friend's new VCR and don't
> understand the ending.  Did the man "reincarnate" on Mars after he tried
> to sacrifice himself?  The reason I think he appears on Mars is that
> Saturn clearly rises over the horizon and is very large and visible.
> over the horizon like a moon.  Reincarnation on Mars is my best bet since
> Mars is closer to Saturn than the Earth...Eat your heart out

From Mars, Saturn would look pretty much like Jupiter from here...a bright
star.  The gas giants are petty good sized, but they're a *long* way out.
You just might get away with Titan (after a bit of warming and a major
cleanup of its smog...um...atmosphere...

Naww.  Better figure on some other solar system and a satellite of some
really big jovian-type with rings.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 20:04:11 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Flying in Blade Runner

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
> Does anyone have one of those "Bladerunner Sketch Books" that were in all
> the bookstores a few years back?  If so, does it say how the cars fly?

I don't have one, but I read it at a bookstore lo these many moons ago.  As
I recall, it was basically done with mirrors, ducted fans, and other fancy
directed airstreams, employing the Bernouli effect, and the lesser known
Coanda (possible sp) effect go generate lift, along with auxiliary jets for
attitude control and such.  Not really all that implausible, since
prototype ducted fan car-sized vehicles have flown tethered even now.  The
problem was that in the movie, they weren't noisy enough on the outside,
didn't have enough of a downdraft, and were portrayed as far too stable in
flight.  They "should" have been portrayed as a sort of helecopter without
the overhead blades.  That is, noisy, wind-generating, skittish-near-the-
ground beasts.  (Presumably, the skittish-near-the-ground "feature" of such
vehicles would, in Blade Runner's time, be controled by active computer
corrections, but it would still be apparent to the human eye, I would
think.  Even so, the major lacks of noise and backwash are still to account
for, and the arms and levers and such were far too easy to read into the
motions they actually made in the movie.)

But it was only a minor implausibility (for all of that, it seemed to me,
as such things go, <any further appropriate qualifiers>).

>   But movie SF is a mass-market product, and thus caters to audiences who
> know essentially no science.

Too true.  Sigh.  Eventually, the innovative technological background boils
down to "'Activate doubletalk generator, Mr. Scott!'  'Aye Aye, Captain,
but she canna hold fer long!'".  But it would be nice if they wouldn't beat
you over the head with it.

(By the by... it seems to me the worst inconsistency in Blade Runner was
the use of psychological tests to identify the replicants, when other
engineered beasties had simple physical micro-taggants engineered in.
Sloppy thinking, it seems to me.  )

( And *really* far from the subject, but let me take a poll: How many of
you were dissapointed that ST:TNG stooped to doing an "Evil Twin" episode
so soon?  Show of hands please....  Ah... I thought so.  Anybody care to
guess who's the next character to have an Evil Twin show up?  Hmmmmm?  )

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 15:25:48 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Flying in Blade Runner

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
[talking about the Spinners and the plausibility of their flight...]
>The problem was that in the movie, they weren't noisy enough on the
>outside, didn't have enough of a downdraft, and were portrayed as far too
>stable in flight.  They "should" have been portrayed as a sort of
>helecopter without the overhead blades.  That is, noisy, wind-generating,
>skittish-near-the-ground beasts.  (Presumably, the
>skittish-near-the-ground "feature" of such vehicles would, in Blade
>Runner's time, be controled by active computer corrections, but it would
>still be apparent to the human eye, I would think.  Even so, the major
>lacks of noise and backwash are still to account for, and the arms and
>levers and such were far too easy to read into the motions they actually
>made in the movie.)

This is, of course, nonsense.

In TODAY'S technology, sure, but remember when trains were invented? The
going theory at that time was that as the train approached 20 miles an
hour, all the air was supposed to get sucked out, thereby suffocating the
passengers.

This was, of course, nonsense.

>But it was only a minor implausibility (for all of that, it seemed to me,
>as such things go, <any further appropriate qualifiers>).

True. I didn't mean to nitpick at you, but technology tends to grow by
leaps and bounds, usually spurred on by some accidental discovery that was
not originally intended...


>(By the by... it seems to me the worst inconsistency in Blade Runner was
>the use of psychological tests to identify the replicants, when other
>engineered beasties had simple physical micro-taggants engineered in.
>Sloppy thinking, it seems to me.  )

Sure, for animals, they did this. I mentioned that in an early argument
that may not have reached your system yet. They wanted the replicants to
look in every way human. I also argued that it was stupid. They should have
marked the cells with serial numbers or something. Why risk the mistake of
killing a human when such a simple safeguard would have prevented such
mistakes?

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366  
Springdale    
NF, Canada    
A0J 1T0       
{utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 10:52:33 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Film technology (was Flying in Blade Runner)

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
> malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>>Yeah, kind of like that show, "Star Trek".  Ha!!  Who'd ever watch a show
>>that implied faster-than-light space travel?  We all know that the
>>Enterprise couldn't _possibly_ have a working "warp drive".
> Why not?

Because, on those long pylons, the warp nacelles would fall off during
impulse manoeuvres. The pylons would snap at the root if Enterprise tried
any serious acceleration. Starfleet recognised this problem, and
strengthened the pylon for the film version - but they strengthened the
wrong end! A Romulan Bird of Prey might work, though.

>(Buck Rogers's interplanetary vessels used to make buzzing noises like a
>DC-3 taking off.)

And had guns with muzzle velocities like ping-pong balls.

Now for another film. Am I right in thinking that ion engines are
low-thrust, high-economy drives? Now, something powered by two ion engines
wouldn't be very agile, would it? I am thinking of Twin Ion Engine, i.e.
TIE fighters.  O.K., so Star Wars technology shouldn't be taken too
seriously, but shouldn't they either have used a better real term, or made
something up?

Adrian Hurt
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 22:29:42 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Flying in Blade Runner

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>> throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>>      The problem was that in the movie, they weren't noisy enough on the
>>outside, didn't have enough of a downdraft, and were portrayed as far too
>>stable in flight.
> This is, of course, nonsense.  In TODAY'S technology, sure, but remember
> when trains were invented? The going theory at that time was that as the
> train approached 20 miles an hour, all the air was supposed to get sucked
> out, thereby suffocating the passengers.

Oh, c'mon.  Be fair.  "Nonsense" is just a bit too strong.  Especially
since the analogy attempts to compare problems with a known capability
(flight today) with problems speculated about for an unknown capability
(trains then).  It is hardly the case that flight is newly invented.
Further, the above was the "going theory" about trains in about the same
sense that it is now the "going theory" that the SSC will destroy the
universe with one of its high-energy particles.

After all, how long until Blade Runner's timeframe?  50 years or so, right?
How long since heavier than air powered flight was invented?  Eighty or so,
right?  And how much, in that eighty years, has slow-to-hovering flight in
a craft that dense improved with regard to stability, downwash, and noise?
Not noticeably.  Various other metrics have improved dramatically, but not
those.  I see no particular reason to suppose such a radical breakthrough
as implied in the movie, especially with regard to downwash of air.  If
you're going to lift that much metal and cargo with air, you have to put
out a powerful downblast.  A car taking off a few tens of feet away doesn't
noticeably blow Decker's clothes around?  It emits vapor that just sort of
sits there in the air?  Implausible.

Though on the other hand:

>>But it was only a minor implausibility
> True. I didn't mean to nitpick at you, but technology tends to grow by
> leaps and bounds, usually spurred on by some accidental discovery that
> was not originally intended...

I agree, especially about the "leaps and bounds", but solving all three of
these problems so completely?  Implausible.  Especially note that they've
already solved hiding the lifting surfaces and vents somewhere along the
line, and that's not likely to affect all three of these other
shortcomings.

Not impossible, mind you.  Just a minor implausibility.
Hardly what I'd call "nonsense".

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date:     Fri, 29 Jan 88 14:00 CST
From:     <HIGGINS%FNALB.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  On Aircars (was: Re: Pain in _Blade_Runner_)

The discussion about flying cars in the movie *Bladerunner* leads me to
make a few remarks.  The aircar has been a standard prop in science fiction
stories for most of a century, yet we still drive clunkers that stick
resolutely to the ground.  A year or so ago I put together a slideshow
called "Doorman, Call Me an Aircar!"  Since then I've given this talk at SF
conventions in San Diego, Chicago, and Detroit.

The technology to make flying cars has been with us for at least fifty
years, and prototypes of a wide variety of designs have flown in that time.
The basic problem is to overcome the airplane's need for long runways
(hence large airports, hence airports outside cities, where the real estate
is cheap.)  There are two ways to solve it: make an automobile that turns
into an aircraft, or make a vertical-takeoff-and-landing aircraft that can
use any vacant lot for an airport.  Both approaches have been tried.

The "roadable airplane" usually detatches its wings and leaves them at the
airport while the fuselage putters around town, or else the wings (or
rotors-- Pitcairn actually built a roadable autogyro in the 1930's) fold,
perhaps into a trailer, so you can take them with you.

VTOL approaches include the Autogiro, the helicopter, and a large zoo of
experimental aircraft tested in the fifties and sixties.  In my opinion the
helicopter does everything you'd want an aircar to do-- operate from small
spaces, hover, move cargo and people over hundred-mile distances-- except
cost $3000.  Fancier VTOLs have met with little success.  Of a few dozens
of designs, only two and a half (the British Harrier, the Soviet
Yakovlev-36, and [someday] the American V-22 Osprey) have ever become
operational or been produced in significant numbers.

Aircars are not in our future.  They are a technological blind alley of the
past, no matter what *Popular Mechanics* tells you.  Why didn't the
helicopter catch on in the mass market after World War II, as the
automobile did at the turn of the century?  It's mechanically complicated,
chock full of vibration, and difficult to master.  If it breaks, you can't
just walk home.  It *can* be operated safely, but at the cost of
overengineered components, strict regulation, and frequent expert
inspections.  All this adds up to money-- generally more than you can
afford for family transportation.  So the helicopter never came down the
mass-production learning curve, and there's no reason to think it ever
will.

(Everything I said about helicopters goes for VTOLs, too.  Squared.)

Jonathan D. Trudel was wondering (or at least Sean Huxter thought he was; I
missed the original posting) whether the Spinner could fly.  The Piasecki
PA-59 AirGeep series in the late 1950s looked a bit like a car.  Pilot and
gas-turbine engine were midships, while two "ducted fans" were fore and
aft, where the hood and trunk might be.  The ducted fans were helicopter
rotors shrouded in cylinders about the size of a child's inflatable
swimming pool.  This configuration improved the lift the rotors could
provide, and enabled the designers to use relatively small rotors.  The
final model even had power to the landing-gear wheels, so it could be
driven around on the ground.  See the book *Vertical Flight*, edited by
Walter Boyne and Donald Lopez, page 64. Conclusion: The Spinner is not too
far-fetched, though it's not a terribly realistic design either.

Bill Higgins
Fermi National Accelerator 
HIGGINS@FNALB.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anderson (2 msgs) &
                       Asimov (5 msgs) & Duane & Hoban

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Wed, 27 Jan 88 18:20 N
From:     <AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Adams: Life, the Universe and Everything

 WARNING: For real Hitch Hiker's Guide fans only :-)

 I just noticed that there are major differences between the two copies I
have of Life, the Universe and Everything. One is the English pocket from
Pan Books, the other the American hardcover from Harmony Books.
 Some of the most prominent differences can be found in use of possibly
offensive words (all are stripped from the US edition) -- but I have also
found significant differences in the actual text. For instance, the
American hardcover does not count 'The Important Facts of the Galaxy:
Number One' as a chapter (the English paperback does), and it completely
lacks 'The Important Facts of the Galaxy: Number Two'!! (Which is chapter 5
in the English paperback). So now the American edition is two chapters
behind on the English version.
 This goes on until chapter 21/23: the piece about the Flying Party. Here,
the American edition suddenly turns out to have an extra part (the dialogue
between Arthur and the girl about the word "Belguim") and the places where
chapters start and end are radically different, thus bringing the two
version back together at the start of Chapter 23, which both start:
 " 'Alright,' shouted Ford at Arthur ...".
 When I found out about these differences I was quite baffled. I can
imagine Adams changing certain words on request of the American publisher,
but this is ludicrous. So does anyone know:

 1) Which version was the originally intended one?
    [My guess would be the English paperback, but who knows?]
 2) Why Adams didn't stop after changing a few offensive words?
 3) Does anyone have the English hardcover or American paperback and if so,
    can you verify what I found? Does the American paperback correspond
    with the American hardcover? And dito for the English books?

 Thanks for any replies!!

Maarten
AERTS@HLERUL5.bitnet

P.S.: Question 4) Has anyone ever successfully attracted Adams' attention?
      I mean, with more success than just a standard reply??

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 18:43:05 GMT
From: flatline!phaedrus@rutgers.edu (james hartman)
Subject: Re: Adams: Life, the Universe and Everything

AERTS@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
>  WARNING: For real Hitch Hiker's Guide fans only :-)

I agree.  Only REAL HHG fans would have read this book.

>  2) Why Adams didn't stop after changing a few offensive words?

One of the ideas batted around here, locally, was that there was a ghost
writer on Life... - the writing style changes dramatically through the book
- - especially during the parts where Arthur and Fenchurch are flying through
the clouds.  It's almost as if whoever it was writing it was trying to
hurry up and get that part over with; the style seems a little terse.  Of
course, when Adams himself was asked this during his last time here in
Houston, he denied it.  "I remember not feeling quite up to snuff when
writing those parts, but later on I couldn't think of how to improve it."
Interesting.  Also, when asked if he was going to do any more
Hitchhiker-related material, he replied, "Yes, later."  (!)

Disclaimer: Much of the above, shy of the direct quotes, is sheer
speculation.

James Hartman
uunet!nuchat!flatline!phaedrus 

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 11:31:14 GMT
From: lifia!pasquier@rutgers.edu (JoKeR)
Subject: Re: Ys

jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>Are there Nine Queens in the folk tales or is this Anderson?  Is there a
>Grallon/Gratellonius or is this also Anderson?  Is there a Dahut/Dahilis?

 I do not know the Anderson's novel you're talking of. But anyway as far as
I remember the legend, Ys - or Ker-Ys in old britton - was a big city
surrounded by the sea, built a few miles from the most western coast of
Brittany by King Gralon - or Grallon? . The King had a daughter named
Dahut, very beautiful, being the exact portrait of her poor mother who had
died at her birth... Then the city was completely destroyed by a huge
tempest and disappeared in the sea never to be seen again... The various
versions of the legend differ on the reason why the city and its
inhabitants were destroyed by what looked like a divine anger. Some say the
city of Ys had become such a place of lust and sin that God destroyed them
as a punishment (looks like the Christian tale of Sodome and Gomhorre...).
Others say it is the King who was punished because he had committed the
most horrible sin with his daughter (remember she looked like her mother
and that Gralon was mad in love with her). Others again say that Dahut was
an evil woman, a sorcerer or a priestess of Hell, and that one night she
gave the Devil the keys of the city of Ys whose portals, once wide opened,
could not prevent the city from being submerged by the sea...  Well, that's
all. I have never read or heard anything about the Nine Queens or any other
important character - the legend is always focused on Gralon, Dahut and the
punishment/destruction of the city of Ys.

Michel B. Pasquier
LIFIA. 46, avenue Felix Viallet. 38031 Grenoble. France. 
pasquier@lifia.imag.fr
imag!lifia!pasquier  

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 02:36:37 GMT
From: michaelm@vax.3com.com (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Ys

jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>  Okay,at a high level my original Ys question is answered. There are some
>references to it in French folklore. The next question is how much of the
>story Anderson tells is rooted in this folklore.  Are there Nine Queens in
>the folk tales or is this Anderson?  Is there a Grallon/Gratellonius or is
>this also Anderson?  Is there a Dahut/Dahilis?

I think you should re-read the notes at the end of each of the volumes.  I
recall Poul mentioning in a couple of places that "King Grallon" is the
remembered legendary name and that Poul has extrapolated backwards to
"Gratillonius" as a Roman name from which "Grallon" is imagined to have
derived.  Also, in one place he mentions Dahut as another legendary
personality.  As for the Nine and Dahilis -- well, we could either start
learning French, or perhaps corner Poul at BayCon or WesterCon and ask
him....

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
{hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|tolerant|allegra|glacier|olhqma}
   !oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 21:12:09 GMT
From: bucsb!lan@rutgers.edu (Larry Nathanson)
Subject: Disappointment and Trickery

I have been an avid Issac Asimov reader for years.  I have read the
_Foundation_ series, and all of the mini-series that lead into
_Foundation_, as well as some the _Black Widower_ mysteries.

The other day I picked up a book called _Issac Asimov's Robot City_ My eye
glanced over the cover (a little flashy for an Asimov) and in big letters,
seemed to be the name of the illustrator. (I figured he deserved a lot of
credit: it was a bright and flashy deal...)

From quickly reviewing it, I thought I had just bought the following book:

Title:           Robot City
Author:          Issac Asimov  
Cover Illus:     Arthur Byron
Publisher:       a whole bunch of people, one of which was named Byron.

I will always buy a book written by Asimov, and even most of the sci-fi
anthologies edited (or said to be edited) by him.

In excitement at having found another treasure, I started reading, only to
stop after 10 or so pages, realizing that I was reading pure bunk. I
decided to take a better look at the cover, and realized that what I had
actually bought was this:

Title:         Issac Asimov's Robot City
Author:        Arthur Byron Cover
Cover Illus:   Some unknown, on the inside
Publisher:     same as above.

In very small print, was the word "by" in front of ABC's name.  I had
quickly reviewed the cover, assumed it was by Asimov (a logical assumption
given the title) and associated the name Arthur Byron, with the flashy
cover, and the word Cover, next to his name.  First I thought it was a
coincidence that the author happened to pick that pseudonym, but on the
back of the title page, one of the names there was Arthur Byron.

So, Mr. AB picked the pseudo last name Cover, all by himself.  

What I feel happened here, is that Asimov's name was used purely, as a
selling point, and, except for an unrelated introduction, had nothing to do
with the story, whatsoever.  Author Arthur Byron, added the last name
Cover, to hide his name, as the author.  I immediately associated him with
the illustrator (of the very flashy cover) and didn't think twice about
buying the book.

I feel that my faith in the name, of my favorite Sci-fi author has been
shattered, and I will think twice about buying a book that (may or may not
be) written by this man, willing to sell his name as a marketing resource.
   
Larry  Nathanson
700 Comnwlth Av.  
Boston, MA 02215  
Apt. # 1305C      
lan@bucsf.bu.edu      
lan@bucsb.bu.edu      
engnyuc@bostonu.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 02:29:48 GMT
From: COK%psuvma.bitnet@rutgers.edu (The Pentagonal Potentate)
Subject: Arthur Byron Cover (was Disappointment and Trickery)

lan@bucsb.UUCP (Larry Nathanson) says:
[anecdote concerning the purchase of _Robot_City_ deleted]
 >In very small print, was the word "by" in front of ABC's name.  I had
>quickly reviewed the cover, assumed it was by Asimov (a logical assumption
>given the title) and associated the name Arthur Byron, with the flashy
>cover, and the word Cover, next to his name.  First I thought it was a
>coincidence that the author happened to pick that pseudonym, but on the
>back of the title page, one of the names there was Arthur Byron.
>
>So, Mr. AB picked the pseudo last name Cover, all by himself.
>
>What I feel happened here, is that Asimov's name was used purely, as a
>selling point, and, except for an unrelated introduction, had nothing to
>do with the story, whatsoever.  Author Arthur Byron, added the last name
>Cover, to hide his name, as the author.  I immediately associated him with
>the illustrator (of the very flashy cover) and didn't think twice about
>buying the book.
>
>I feel that my faith in the name, of my favorite Sci-fi author has been
>shattered, and I will think twice about buying a book that (may or may not
>be) written by this man, willing to sell his name as a marketing resource.

I agree with you completely about Asimov having sold out.  After about
three hundred and fifty books, Asimov's become little more than a creative
typist.  I find the growing trend of authors selling their names to
ventures unrelated to them disgusting.  A small list: Isaac Asimov's
_Robot_City_, Alan Dean Foster's something-or-other, Roger Zelazny's
_Alien_Speedway_.  I'd be willing to bet Heinlein's next; he's never been
one to turn down an easy buck.  Ah, well.
     
Thank God Theodore Sturgeon, Philip K. Dick, Fletcher Pratt, H. P.
Lovecraft, C. M. Kornbluth, and all the other SF writers who never got a
chance at literary greatness during their lifetimes aren't around to see
this.  They'd be truly disgusted at what those who had the chance have done
with it.
     
On Arthur Byron Cover:
     
The name is real.  Arthur Byron Cover is, and has always been, the name of
this writer.  I'm rather surprised at his involvement in this cheap
marketing ploy; he's generally been somewhat respectable previous to this.
     
He may be a hack, but at least he's innocent of the crime you attribute to
him.
     
Oh, what a state the world's in.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 17:45:32 GMT
From: jsp@hpclskh.hp.com
Subject: Re: Disappointment and Trickery

>I feel that my faith in the name, of my favorite Sci-fi author has been
>shattered, and I will think twice about buying a book that (may or may not
>be) written by this man, willing to sell his name as a marketing resource.
 
If you feel that strongly about it, I strongly urge you to write to the
publisher, as well as to Asimov himself (send it "in care of" to the
publisher).  The only way that this practice -- which is becoming ever more
widespread -- will cease is if the people responsible know that the people
who buy the books don't appreciate it.

James Preston

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 11:55:54 GMT
From: iitmax!draughn@rutgers.edu (Mark T. Draughn)
Subject: Robot City (was Disappointment and Trickery)

Robot City is the title of a series of novels based on an idea created by
Dr. Asimov.  He also writes introductions.  The books are written by
"Promising New Authors" according to the introduction.  If you look at one
of the _Robot_City_ books carefully you will see that they are numbered and
titled individually.  The publisher is just emphasizing Asimov's name
because he is better known.  It's not quite as insidious as some of these
articles have been claiming.  (Of course the title and author do sort of
blend into the cover illustration...)

Unhappily, these new robot stories are too carefully controlled by Asimov
and suffer from the same faults as many of his robot stories.  (Robots
smart enough to understand natural language but too stupid to perform
simple tasks that can be learned by rote, software with horrible and
obvious bugs, and acoustic communications between robots in English rather
than high-bandwidth communication in some internal language...)

Mark Draughn				
Computer Science Department	
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, Illinois  60616
(312) 567-5334
UUCP: ...ihnp4!iitmax!draughn
BITNET: SYSMARK@IITVAX

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 13:58:53 GMT
From: drilex!carols@rutgers.edu (Carol Springs)
Subject: Robot City (was Re: Disappointment and Trickery)

lan@bucsb.bu.edu (Larry Nathanson) writes:
>In very small print, was the word "by" in front of ABC's name.  I had
>quickly reviewed the cover, assumed it was by Asimov (a logical assumption
>given the title) and associated the name Arthur Byron, with the flashy
>cover, and the word Cover, next to his name.  First I thought it was a
>coincidence that the author happened to pick that pseudonym, but on the
>back of the title page, one of the names there was Arthur Byron.
>
>So, Mr. AB picked the pseudo last name Cover, all by himself.  
>
>What I feel happened here, is that Asimov's name was used purely, as a
>selling point, and, except for an unrelated introduction, had nothing to
>do with the story, whatsoever.  Author Arthur Byron, added the last name
>Cover, to hide his name, as the author.  I immediately associated him with
>the illustrator (of the very flashy cover) and didn't think twice about
>buying the book.
>
>I feel that my faith in the name, of my favorite Sci-fi author has been
>shattered, and I will think twice about buying a book that (may or may not
>be) written by this man, willing to sell his name as a marketing resource.

Whoa!  Art Cover has used that name in print for years.  I think it's even
his real name.  He's admitted it comes across as a little strange,
especially in light of his connections with the comic book industry...

I strongly doubt that Arthur Byron Cover intended to mislead anyone into
thinking he was merely the cover artist for the book you mention.  What the
publishers hoped you'd think is another question.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173      
rutgers!ll-xn,mit-eddie!ll-xn,linus!axiom,harvard,necntc}!drilex!carols  

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 08:32:33 GMT
From: kathyli@cory.berkeley.edu (Kathy Li aka the Rev. Mom)
Subject: _Deep_Wizardry_ out in paperback!

For those of you who have been waiting for the sequel to Diane Duane's
_So_You_Want_To_Be_A_Wizard, _Deep_Wizardry_ is out in paperback. It's from
Dell, YA Fantasy (i.e. Laurel-Leaf), ISBN: 0-440-20070-9.  Get your local
bookstore to order this one, if they don't have it!  Marvelous, marvelous
stuff!

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 00:48:37 GMT
From: stevew@iscuva.iscs.com (Steve Walton)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust fantasy

Have you read _Ridley_Walker_, by, I believe, Russell Hoban? Really more of
a visionary work than a fantasy.

Steve Walton

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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To: SFLOVERS.;nobody@rutgers.edu
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #54
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu

--text follows this line--

SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:

		      Television - Star Trek (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 18:33:13 GMT
From: aehl@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Donald J Aehl)
Subject: Star Trek Technical Trivia

Here is some Star Trek information which I found in my files when I went
back home after semester break...

I would like to provide some answers to some basic question which I noticed
on this newsgroup in the past few months.  The sources which I will refer
to are what I consider to be "First priority Star Trek".  That is a
category which includes:

   1) The Original Star Trek television series
   2) The Animated Star Trek television series
   3) The Star Trek Motion Pictures 
   4) Star Trek: The Next Generation

Undenyably, there are the ULTIMATE source for all Star Trek trivia and
technical information.

First of all, I would like to present what information I have regarding the
chart which was displayed in Commadore Stone's office in the episode "Court
Martial" (Stardate 2947.3) at Starbase 11:

This is what it appeared to me on my copy of the episode:

      ----------------------------------------------------------------
      !                       STAR SHIP STATUS                       !
      !                        # Commision                           !
      !                                                              !
      !           0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  !
      ! NCC-1705  !---!---!---!---!---!---!---!-  !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1631  !---!---!---!---!---!---!---!---!---!---!   !---!  !
      ! NCC-1703  !---!---!---!---!---!   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1672  !---!---!---!---!---!---!---!-  !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1664  !---!---!---!---!---!---!---!-- !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1667  !---!---!---!   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1701  !---!---!---!---!---!---!---!---!-  !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1710  !---!---!---!---!-- !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1665  !---!---!   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      ! NCC-1700  !---!   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      !           !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      !           !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      !           !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !   !  !
      !                                                              !
      ----------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this fits on your screen...

Now, this is the chart (duplicated to the best of my ability).  I realize
that you may notice some inconsistancies when compared to the chart which
was posted previously.  namely, mine says "# commision" as compared to "To
Completion" as the other chart said.  Well, this is what it looked like
when I saw it, although I admit that my copy was cut off at the top.  If
anyone can confirm or deny the numbers I have posted please let me know!

Anyway, "# commision" seems to bring with it a number of possibilities.
First of all, NCC-1701 (The U.S.S. Enterprise) is distinctly visible as
being eight units long on the chart above.  It seems unlikely that so many
starships are being repaired at Starbase 11 at the same time (as would have
to be the case if it read "to completion").  On the other hand if it
refered to the number of times a starship had been commissioned for each of
its cruises (five year or four year) then this would tend to support the
statement that the Enterprise has been commisioned Eight times by the time
that Kirk has commanded her:

Namely: April, Robert  (2 missions)
	Winter, G      (3 missions)
	Pike, Christopher  (3 missions)
	Kirk, James      (current commision)
	 
Well, take this in the spirit in which it was presented: merely as a
presentation of information and a discussion of Star Trek continuity...

Furthermore, with regard to Starships.  I have found three sources for
starship registry numbers.  The first comes from G. Roddenberry in the
bible of Star Trek "The Making of Star Trek", The second comes from G.
Mandel's "the Star Trek Maps", which is undoubtedly the most awesome
resource of any kind for Star Trek information.  I really mean this!  Those
of you who do not own this magnificent publication just can't imagine what
they are missing. The third is from BJO Trimble's "Star Trek Concordance"
which is also a wonderful resource in its own right.

I shall present the information below:

                       TMoST              STMaps          BJO

USS Constellation     NCC-1017           NCC-1017        NCC-1017
USS Constitution      NCC-1700           NCC-1700        NCC-1700
USS Defiant              -               NCC-1764        NCC-1764
USS Enterprise        NCC-1701           NCC-1701        NCC-1701
USS Excalibur         NCC-1705           NCC-1664        NCC-1664
USS Exeter            NCC-1706           NCC-1672        NCC-1672
USS Farragut          NCC-1702           NCC-1647        NCC-1647
USS Hood              NCC-1707           NCC-1703        NCC-1703
USS Intrepid          NCC-1708           NCC-1631        NCC-1631
USS Kongo             NCC-1710              -               -
USS Lexington         NCC-1703           NCC-1709        NCC-1709
USS Potemkin          NCC-1711           NCC-1702        NCC-1702
USS Republic             -               NCC-1371        NCC-1731
USS Valiant           NCC-1709              -            NCC-1623
USS Yorktown          NCC-1704           NCC-1717        NCC-1717

Personally, I don't put too much emphasis upon the registry numbers given
in TMoST (which is actually the numbers given in "The Star Trek Blueprints"
and "Star Fleet Technical Manual" combined with the names given in TMoST
but for some reason I am considering them to be the same source) Anyway.
Of all the ships mentioned (15 in all) some seem to be in question as to
ever having existed in the first place.  Let's first categorize all of the
Starships (ie: Constitution class starships) which have actually been seen
in a Star Trek episode:

   USS Enterprise (obviously)
   USS Constellation (Doomsday machine)
   USS Defiant (Tholian Web)  (yes this obviously was a real
      Federation starship.  It only slipped into another dimension
      there is no indication that it ever came from one! Quite the
      contrary, Kirk begins by saying something about how they lost
      contact with the ship awhile back at STarfleet HQ)
   USS Excalibur (Ultimate Computer)
   USS Exeter (Omega Glory)
   USS Hood (Ultimate Computer)
   USS Lexington (Ultimate Computer)
   USS Potemkin (Ultimate Computer)

Also, other starships were mentioned directly (but never seen) in other
Star Trek episodes, Namely:

   USS Farragut (Obsession)
   USS Intrepid (Immunity Syndrom)
   USS Republic (Court Martial)
   USS Yorktown (Obsession)
   USS Constitution (Encounter at Farpoint)
	
Also, BJO says that the USS Constitution was mentioned in "Space Seed" but
I can find no evidence of this claim whatsoever.

Not mentioned are:

   USS Kongo  (which I don't believe in, personally)
   USS Valiant (this ship was mentioned twice in the series, in
     "Where No Man Has Gone Before" a ship that crashed 200 yrs
     before the time of Kirk & Co. and also in "A Taste of Armageddon"
     (Sp?) a ship that was destroyed 50 yrs before Kirk & Co.)
	
My intention in displaying this is to attempt to present a continuity
problem and generate some discussion.  I think that these are very
interesting topics of discussion and am always looking for solutions to new
ones.

Another favorite is the topic of serial numbers.  Only a few serial numbers
have been directly mentioned in Star Trek.  The few that I can track down
are:

   Kirk, James T.       SC 937-0176 CEC (Court Martial)
   Spock, X              S 197-276  SP  (Court Martial)
   Scott, M             SE 197-514  T   (Court Mrt'l or Wolf inFold?)
   Chekov, Pavel A.        656-5827 B   (Star Trek IV)
   Chapel, Christine    NI 596-242  MT  (Mudd's Passion) animated

I could swear that McCoy's was mentioned but I can't find It (I also
thought that his middle name was Edward but Star Trek III has complicated
that matter a bit. personally I prefer the sound of Leonard E. McCoy to
Leonard H. McCoy.  besides what in the heck does H. stand for anyway?  I
sure hope its not Horatio or Harve (as in Harve Bennett)) oh well...

Just as a last note, of all the reference books I own I must say that the
best are

   The Making of Star Trek
   The Star Fleet Technical Manual
   The Star Trek Concordance
   The Star Trek Compendium (all three editions)
   The Star Trek Blueprints
   Bridge Blueprints
   Klingon Cruiser Blueprints
   Romulan Blueprints
   K-7 Space Station Blueprints
   The Star Trek Maps
   The Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual
   Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise (good new book!)
   Flight Officer's Guide to the USS Enterprise (A photocopied book
     prepared by Lee Cole which gives almost totally complete
     blueprints to the bridge of the motion picture Enterprise)
   The Star Trek Poster Books (a pretty good resource if you believe
      in G. Mandel's vision)

Also, I must say that I support G. Mandel's timeline of Star Trek since so
many of the quality technical manuals support his timeline along with so
many of the Star Trek people who form the core group of Star Trek
information generators: G. Mandel, M. McMaster, L. Cole, A. Probert, etc.
The only people who support the FASA timeline FASA themselves and the
people at TREK magazine (who seemed to have originated it)
	    
Books of marginal credibility (my own personal opinion!!!)

   Star Trek II: Biographies  (very poor continuity, not even set in
     the 23rd century as every Star Trek fan knows)
   Star Trek Oficer's Manual (not bad but a half-effort in my opinion)
   Star Trek Ships (a highly overrated technical manual.  The drawings
     are poor and the visonary creativity is equally poor.  I have
     nothing against the authors I just don't like the book)
   Best of TREK Magazine (ok reading but not very good for a source)
   FASA Star Trek Game (fun to play, and good ideas, but still needs
     some work to be workable)
        
Let me re-emphasize my statements, I am presenting MY PERSONAL OPINIONS in
order to generate discussion about a topic which I really enjoy (Star Trek)
I would love to discuss this stuff with anyone and everyone and obtain all
the trivia which is possible.  Lets here it for free exchange of knowledge!
Many technical manuals have been published which have not gotten wide
distribution and the information could easily be shared for the benefit of
all (not to mention the pure enjoyment). Most of the stuff hasn't been
published in years and will probably never be published again.

One manual which I am particularly interested in finding was once
advertised in the Star Trek Posterbooks, it was called the "Star Fleet
Alien Reference Manual" it supposedly included Vulcan, Klingon, Romulan
Language guides and was published by G. Mandel.  I have tried to write the
original distributor but to no avail does anyone have this manual?

Oh well, that's about all for now.  Keep on Trekkin'

Donald Aehl            
Box #204
3400 N. Maryland Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53201
ARPA: aehl@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
UUCP: ihnp4!uwmcsd1!uwm-evax!aehl

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 88 16:18:31 est
From: "(Smith, Stephen)" <SMITH%DICKINSN.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: T N G

How about the most recent episode of ST:TNG (missed the title)? Not only do
our heroes run into problems with a society matriarchal to the point of
killing revolutionaries (except for the intervention of Riker (!) - I'll
get to that later), they are also infested with a respiratory virus, AND
Romulans are moving into the neutral zone!!  And they also have to deal
with fans criticizing their realism! How can anyone be so cruel?

A couple basic questions: is it just my imagination or was that matriarchal
society human? If so, how did they get there and how did they devolve into
matriarchy? (No, I'm not being sexist; even the "Elected One" called a loss
of female domination "evolutionary.") If not, what was the deal with Riker
and the "Elected One"? How did they get to such a slanted level of
technology where they "vaporized" people as a humane way of killing them,
but didn't have space travel? AUGH!

And again, they played games with the Prime Directive that blew my mind.
Riker was risking court-martial when he proposed kidnapping the humans. But
he stopped the "Elected One" from killing them! And he is letting himself
get seduced by the "Elected One" ! ! !! !!! !!!!!

And WHEN is the show going to do something about Dr. Crusher and Captain
Picard? It didn't do it this week and it probably isn't going to do it next
week (Picard is getting kidnapped, or so hints the show). But what would
happen if it did? They might get married (interesting question : can the
Captain get married while commanding his vessel? If so, how, since he is
the person in charge of marrying people?!) But then Wesley would be
Picard's stepson! It could get interesting.

Stephen Joseph Smith
Bitnet: SMITH@DICKINSN

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 18:49:50 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Binary Startrek (*maybe* a SPOILER)

>Did anyone else catch the subtle error in naming of the Binars? In the
>episode proper, they are introduced as "one-zero" and "zero-one", but in
>the end credits, they're listed as "zero-zero" and "one-one". Wonder which
>is which...

Not a surpising error.  Unless you happen to be an electrical circuit,
binary is a very painful mode of self-expression, with a high probability
of goof.  Which is why the first capability programmed into any computing
system is a means of communicating in a human-usable symbols: decimal
digits, letters, etc.  (Even on the rare occasion when they need to deal
with the individual bits, humans find binary values too hard to read; the
resort to more concise expression, usually octal or hexadecimal digits.)

This episode is an example of a long-standing SF fallacy: Computers reduce
everything to binary, therefore we must learn binary to deal with
computers.  The fallacy comes from a failure to understand why computers
use binary.  Computers don't use binary because they're *incapable* of
dealing with other modes of expression -- quite the opposite is true.  All
symbolic systems (written language, numbers and other mathmatical symbols,
music, choreoographical notation) can be expressed in binary, so binary
represents a means by which computers can deal with *any* set of symbols.

SF writers often get their science a little wrong, and the mistake was
understandable (though not forgivable) ten years ago.  But now that
*everybody* owns a computer (even if you don't have a PC, you surely own a
CPU hidden in a VCR or watch or alarm clock or car or microwave oven or
pocket spelling corrector or...)  it should be painfully obvious that you
don't need binary to talk with a computer any more than you need a degree
in psychoneurology to talk to a human being.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 21:53:31 GMT
From: decwrl!apple!tecot@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Ed Tecot)
Subject: Re: Error in ST-TNG episode: 11001001   *very mild spoiler*

Opstad.osbunorth@XEROX.COM writes:
>  Did anyone else catch the subtle error in naming of the Binars? In the
>episode proper, they are introduced as "one-zero" and "zero-one", but in
>the end credits, they're listed as "zero-zero" and "one-one". Wonder which
>is which...

It's not an error.  There were *four* Binars, one-one, zero-zero, one-zero,
and zero-one.  Hence the title of the episode (and the filename): 11001001.

One thing I can't understand however: It's the largest mobile computer in
the Federation, and it doesn't even have a directory command?

emt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 17:52:48 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Error in ST-TNG episode: 11001001   *very mild spoiler*

>It's not an error.  There were *four* Binars, one-one, zero-zero,
>one-zero, and zero-one.  Hence the title of the episode (and the
>filename): 11001001.

What I want to know is why 11001001? Why not 10011100? Or 11000110? I was
told that the title was a last minute one and that another number was
originally used in the press releases to publications such as TV Guide.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Aldiss & Brin (5 msgs) & Budrys &
                         Clarke (3 msgs) & Cook (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 16:13:43 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE YEAR BEFORE YESTERDAY by Brian W. Aldiss

	       THE YEAR BEFORE YESTERDAY by Brian W. Aldiss
		      Watts, 1987, ISBN 0-531-15040-2
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is a book set in an alternate universe about characters in that
universe who write (and read) books about yet *other* alternate universes.
Confusing?  Definitely.  But extremely clever.  You see, the books that the
characters deal with are THE IMPOSSIBLE SMILE and EQUATOR.  The former, in
the universe of THE YEAR BEFORE YESTERDAY, was written by a character named
Jael Cracken; in the universe we inhabit, it was published in a different
form in SCIENCE FANTASY in 1965 under the pseudonym Jael Cracken.  The
latter, in the universe of THE YEAR BEFORE YESTERDAY, was also written by
Jael Cracken; in our universe it was published in NEW WORLDS in 1958 and
later (as part of an Ace Double) as VANGUARD FROM ALPHA.  By now you've
probably guessed that these works were in fact written (in our universe,
anyway) by Brian Aldiss, who in this "novel" has come up with a truly
original way to re-cycle his earlier works.

     The world in which the framing story takes place is the by-now
familiar one in which the Nazis have won World War II.  Well, not entirely
familiar, since every author does this differently.  The world in which THE
IMPOSSIBLE SMILE takes place is also a Reich-triumphant one, though a
different one.  And so on, through labyrinthian nestings of stories in
alternate worlds, until you're not really sure which level you're on.

     Though I love alternate histories, this disappointed me.  I don't
think it was so much the worlds themselves, though I must admit that the
Reich- triumphant world may have been as overdone in alternate history
stories as Arthur has been in high fantasy.  I'm not saying there can't be
another good Arthurian novel, or even another good Reich-triumphant
alternate world novel, but it's a lot more difficult than it used to be.
But I think what really disappointed me was that I was hoping for a *new*
novel, and what I got was a framing sequence and two recycled 25-year-old
novelettes.

     Why the character portrayed on the cover by Ray Lago has an alligator
on his jumpsuit is anybody's guess.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 88 09:15:37 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Brin (Uplift short stories)

From: jsp@hpclskh.hp.com
>Trust me Isaac, there are no short stories set in the _Startide_ universe.
>It's just that Brin has a great facility for creating a complete universe.

Actually, this is not strictly true.  Part of _Startide Rising_ was
published in Analog as a novella under the title "The Tides of Kithrup" (I
think).  As a semi-interesting observation, one of the changes he made in
putting this section into the book was changing the name of the language
spoken from English to Anglic. (Why?  I don't know).  It made a great
stand-alone story BTW.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 20:31:59 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Existing David Brin Fans:  Please Help!

jsp@hpclskh.HP.COM writes:
>Trust me Isaac, there are no short stories set in the _Startide_ universe.

Gee I guess I don't trust you James.  Take a look at the copyright page for
Startide Rising.

>It's just that Brin has a great facility for creating a complete universe.
>It's just like the real world: If you write a story set today, there will
>have been many important events that happened prior to your story.

Hm, I'm not overwhelmed with the "completeness" of his universe.  I've only
read a little so far, but I'm of the opinion that there a lot of writers
who are as good, or better, at fleshing out an imaginary universe.  His
scientific/engineering background does seem to be different enough from his
predecssors' to give him some unique perspectives.

A note to people who responded to my request: I appreciate your interest
and enthusiasm, but you really should know that knowing one's own ignorance
is part of knowing what one knows.  I got a lot of responses that said
simply, "There are no such stories."  It's difficult to put much faith in
these responses, because none of the respondents indicated *why* they were
so certain of their facts.  (Examples: I looked in the Indexes of all
current SF magazines and anthologies; I *read* all SF magazines and
anthologies; I know David Brin.)  In the absence of any supporting data,
I'm inclined to believe that the writer has concluded that the stories
don't exists simply because he hasn't seen them.  (Bet he hasn't seen a
cacomistle either.)  But the stories might still exist: they might have
been published in a magazine that nobody reads.  (Alas, SF magazines are
not doing well these days.)  They could be unpublished.  They could be in
some out-of-print anthology.  They could have been published years ago and
forgotten while Brin suspened his writing career for other pursuits (which
SF writers very often do; their connections with the real world is what
makes their stuff work).

Not that big deal, I'm just belaboring the point because this is a mistake
in logic, and logic is important in SF!

Still, now that I've read a little Brin I'm inclined to think I was
probably wrong in deducing that Sundiver wasn't the first episode.  But the
problem doesn't spring from all the little details that are involved in a
Brin story.  The fact is, Brin is a rather clumsy writer who often tries to
say too many things at once, particularly when he's Setting the Stage.
(When I read the first chapter in The Practice Effect, with its
triply-nested flashbacks, I thought, "I'll bet this guy programs in FORTH.)
In Sundiver, the problem has the effect of making the first couple of
chapters read like one of those poorly written "What has gone before"
summaries that accompany serials in low-budget magazines.  Hence my
deduction that I was coming in on the middle of the story.

Brin's Gung-Ho writing techniques are pretty standard for SF.  But I do
wish he'd get a good editor, or at least find someone who'll do a critical
reading of the text prior to publication.  It grates on my nerves when a
writer says "illogical" when he means "clumsy".

I did get one useful suggestion: Someone (sorry, I forget who) expressed
the opinion that the Sundiver series is more readable if you read Startide
Rising first, even though its chronology and copyright date put it after
Sundiver.  He felt that, despite the chronology, the basic description of
Brin's assumption appears in the SR, and this description helps one with
the other books.  I think this view is supported by the fact (as indicated
on the copyright page) that SR previously appeared "in a different form" in
Analog -- published *before* Sundiver.  Possibly that story is the first
Brin Universe tale.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 17:14:25 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Existing David Brin Fans:  Please Help!

>As for you complaints about Brin's writing, I agree that _Sundiver_ is not
>quite as well written as his other books, but then, it was his first
>novel.

Brin's first _written_ novel was the _The Practice Effect_. It was the
third published for a very good reason, it is a bad book and was finally
published because of the popularity of _Startide_.  _Practice_ was written
when Brin was still at Cal Tech and has all sorts of Cal Tech in jokes.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow 

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 01:00:21 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Existing David Brin Fans:  Please Help!

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>>As for you complaints about Brin's writing, I agree that _Sundiver_ is
>>not quite as well written as his other books, but then, it was his first
>>novel.
>
>Brin's first _written_ novel was the _The Practice Effect_. It was the
>third published for a very good reason, it is a bad book and was finally
>published because of the popularity of _Startide_.

TPE is the only Brin I've read all the way through.  If by "bad book" you
mean the prose and narrative thread is unnecessarily convoluted, there's
too much cheap humor, the language is often sloppy, and the main characters
are a pain in the butt after a while, then I agree with you.  Still, it has
a lot of what I associate with good SF: a logical (if somewhat
off-the-wall) premise, the usual intellectual adventure as the hero tries
to figure out What's Going On, etc.  I have a nasty suspicion that I'm
going to *want* to read Brin's other books, but that I don't have the
stamina to deal with his writing style.

>_Practice_ was written when Brin was still at Cal Tech and has all sorts
>of Cal Tech in jokes.

Plus all the chapter titles are multilingual puns, each one more painful
than the last.  I must be getting old, I didn't used to mind this sort of
thing (ten years ago I *loved* Poul Anderson, despite his silly linguistic
affectations).  Anyway, if what you say is true, than I have to say that
TPE is pretty good for a first work by a college student.  But it also
implies that when he was finally in a position to get it published, he
didn't feel compelled to rewrite out the flaws that kept it unpublished in
the first place.  A bad sign: it's the familiar pattern of the writer with
talent and some special things to contribute, but no willingness to learn
from his mistakes.  Damn, I miss the SF magazines: writing for them was a
good apprenticeship for a lot of writers.

Do you happen to know if there are any other unpublished Brins?  Perhaps I
was right the first time, and Sundiver is actually a sequel to an
unpublished novel.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 07:47:52 GMT
From: Devin_E_Ben-Hur@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Existing David Brin Fans:  Please Help!

Actually, _The_Practice_Effect_ was Brin's third novel and _Sundiver_ was
first.  When I read it, I also assumed it was his first because the
writing quality was so much poorer, but I met him at a con and asked him
about it and he said it was written after Startide.  It is clearly a less
ambitious work and he wrote it to "take a break."

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 23:31:30 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: High Threshold/Rogue Moon

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg):
>When I read ROGUE MOON by Algis Budrys recently I remembered another story
>I had read several years ago which I dug up again, HIGH THRESHOLD by Alan
>E. Nourse. Granted that THRESHOLD was written in 1951 and MOON in 1960,
>there were many similarities, I thought so, in the 2 short stories:
>(1) both dealt with a greater than 3D object
>(2) both had several humans die while studying the object
>(3) both had a person with "steel" nerves and strong will power finally
>    understand the object, but were permanently changed by it
>Did anyone else notice this, or is it just coincidence?

Just coincidence.  The books (HT became the first part of "The Universe
Between"; I didn't know that RM had ever been anything but a novel) have
very few similarities in mood, content, style.  As for the three points of
similarity listed

1) The lunar object may not have been more than 3D -- it never was
explained.  Extradimensionality was raised once in the book, by way of
analogy.

2) I'll grant this point of similarity, but not give it much weight.  In HT
there was a phenomenon which overwhelmed the perceptual systems of the
investigators leading to collapse and, in a couple of cases, death.  The
object in RM was an active (and rather imaginative) killer.

3) RM ends with the object still not understood.  Also, the "steel nerves"
in question were of very different orders.  The protagonist in RM was a
thrill-seeker with an extreme case of pride and something of a death-wish.
This combination allowed him to repeatedly die without going to pieces.
(Sorry about that.)  The protagonist in HT was highly adaptable, and this
allowed her to perceive the unimaginable without going over the deep end.

Both good books, but not very similar.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date:     Fri, 29 Jan 88 15:12:47 EST
From:     Chettri@UDEL.EDU
Subject:  Clarke and Asimov

wyzansky@NADC.ARPA writes:
>Does anybody remember the famous "treaty" between Clarke and Asimov back
>in the 50's (40's??) where it was mutually agreed that Clarke was the best
>Science Fiction Writer and the second-best Science Writer in the world
>while Dr. A. was the best Science Writer and the second-best Science
>Fiction Writer?

I checked in the library. It is in the dedication to "Report on Planet
Three and other Speculations." Excellent science writing.

John L. Wynstra (john@rutgers.edu) writes:
>   Perhaps it should be added the Arthur Clarke is the better scientist of
>the two, having invented the idea of the synchronously orbiting satellite
>back in 1945.  This, along with television and the Telstar, have forever
>changed our society.

I disagree. Clarke probably has a better background in Physics and
Mathematics, while Asimov is probably better in Biology and Chemistry
(loosely the physical sciences vs. the life sciences). To see some errors
that Asimov made in his science writing, see "Report on Planet Three and
Other Speculations" by Clarke. Clarke has also been guilty of errors in his
science (see the addendum to Imperial Earth).

>   Nevertheless I must add that if it weren't for Dr Asimov's science
>column in _The M of F&SF_ (unabashed plug) and a handful of other science
>writers, I'd know very little science indeed.

Though I wont make such a sweeping claim for myself, I appreciate his
science writing very much.

>Anyway my point is hooray for Asimov, the science writer!

I second that opinion and to that I'd add - Hooray for Clarke the science
writer (even though he doesn't write much any more, and his output is
considerably less than that of Dr. A).

Samir Chettri

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 15:01:34 GMT
From: mmm!cipher@rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Disappointment and Trickery

finesse@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Amit Malhotra) writes:
>My question is, is Venus Prime something out of one of Clarke's books? Or
>is he too just selling his name?

I assume you're talking about "Breaking Strain," since that's the only
"Venus Prime" book out I think.  You will notice the quality of the writing
improves markedly towards the middle of the book.  That's because the book
is built around the Clarke short story "Breaking Strain," about two men in
a spaceship with only enough oxygen for one to make the trip.  I don't
recall reading about that "bionic woman" character (the protagonist of the
Venus Prime book) in any of Clarke's other writing, but I haven't read
everything he ever wrote.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 18:21:55 GMT
From: h53y@hp1.ccs.cornell.edu (Groos)
Subject: "Tales From the White Hart"

Does anyone know where I can find a copy of "Tales From the White Hart" by
Arthur C. Clarke? I've read one story from the collection, but can't find
the complete edition anywhere. If possible, respond by EMAIL, as they are
taking this computer away soon (Damn, just when I had it figured out!)

Thanx in advance,
Phil Lafornara
H53Y@CORNELLA
H53Y@CRNLVAX5

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 21:11:27 GMT
From: linus!dee@rutgers.edu (David E. Emery)
Subject: dread empire canonical listing wanted

Could someone send me (or post) a listing of the Dread Empire books in
chronological (or other canonical) order?  

Thanks

Dave Emery
emery@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 06:34:42 GMT
From: wenn@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: dread empire canonical listing wanted

I find that the best order to read Glen Cook's Dread Empire series is in
the order they are published.  The books are:

   A Shadow of All Night Falling
   October's Baby
   All Darkness Met
   The Fire in His Hands
   With Mercy Toward None
   Reap the East Wind
   An Ill Fate Marshalling

John

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 06:50:33 GMT
From: gamiddleton@watmath.waterloo.edu (Guy Middleton)
Subject: Re: dread empire canonical listing wanted

dee@linus.UUCP (David E. Emery) writes:
> Could someone send me (or post) a listing of the Dread Empire books in
> chronological (or other canonical) order?

This is story order.  Publication order in ()s.

	Title						Comments

	The Fire In His Hands		(4)		El Murid War
	With Mercy Toward None		(5)			"

	A Shadow of All Night Falling	(1)		Great Western War
	October's Baby			(2)			"
	All Darkness Met		(3)			"

	Reap The East Wind		(6)		The Deliverer

	An Ill Fate Marshalling		(7)		Kavelin

All these books are wonderful.  Everybody should go out and buy some, so
sales go up and more get published.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 19 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 88 21:32:43 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu
Subject: Gaylaxicon '88

Gaylaxicon '88
Presented by The Gaylaxians Science Fiction Society
June 3-5, 1988
Provincetown, MA, USA
    
What is Gaylaxicon '88?

It is a relaxacon/minicon for Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Science Fiction
Fans and their Friends.  Since it's a relaxacon, there will be some
programming, some videos, some filksinging, and plenty of time to relax and
socialize.  Since it's a minicon, attendance is limited.  There won't be a
dealer's room nor an art show.

Membership:

Membership in Gaylaxicon '88 is on a first-come, first-served basis.
Memberships are limited to the capacity of our largest available room,
which is approximately 100 people.  Memberships may be transferred by
written request, but are not refundable.

Members agree to abide by convention policies, which include respecting the
privacy of other attendees and respecting the property and policies of our
host hotel, the Gifford House.

Accomodations:

We will be holding Gaylaxicon '88 at The Gifford House, near the center of
the Provincetown business district.  We have negotiated excellent
off-season rates that are quite inexpensive compared to typical rates at
Science Fiction conventions.  Of course, since this is a guest house,
accomodations will not be as luxurious as a major modern hotel; the least
expensive rooms have a shared or hall bath.  And, because this is a guest
house, crashing is not permitted.  As soon as all the details are
available, room forms will be sent to members.

Our agreement with the Gifford House requires us to handle the room
reservations, so please do not try to reserve your room through them.  We
must fill the guest house both nights, so no single night reservations will
be possible.  You must pay for both Friday and Saturday nights.  Since we
are new at this and have not established a credit rating, we will be asking
that all rooms be paid for in advance.  We regret this bureaucracy, but
remember, this is our first convention; please bear with us.

Policies:

Our policies are simple.  We will require some sort of photo ID with proof
of age at registration.  Because of this, we must have your legal name,
though you are free to use an alias on your badge, and we will do
everything we can to protect your privacy.  Anyone under 18 must be
accompanied by a parent or guardian who is attending the con.  Alcohol will
not be served at activities funded by the con.  You are expected to observe
the Gifford House's policy with respect to alcohol in the rooms; this is
governed by state law.  The Gifford House has a no-smoking policy in public
areas.  Finally, while we strongly encourage costumes, no weapons, whether
real or imaginary, will be permitted.  If in doubt, ask.  People who
repeatedly refuse to follow these policies will be told to leave, and
membership fees will not be refunded.  Other policies may be established as
the need arises.

If you are with the press, or are working freelance, you must register with
us.  Photography will only be permitted in designated areas and at
designated times.  You may not report the names of convention members
without their permission.  You must be a con member to attend con events,
though individual representatives of the Gaylaxians may be available for
interviews outside the con.

For more information write to:
   The Gaylaxians
   P. O. Box 1051
   Back Bay Annex
   Boston, MA 02117.

Remember, after Feb 29 the rates go up.  And, once we're full, that's it.

Hope to see you there!

Gary
Con-vener, Gaylaxicon '88.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 20:10:22 GMT
From: baycon@hpcupt1.hp.com (Baycon 88)
Subject: BayCon '88

Now that Progress Report 1 has been in the mail for a while, I thought I'd
take the opportunity to kill a few rumors that have been going around.

Rumor #1:  No more BayCons.   DEAD WRONG.   See below.

Rumor #2: BayCon '88 is the last BayCon.  Also DEAD WRONG, at least
          as far we can tell.  (It might be difficult to do BayCon
          '89 if California were to sink into the Pacific, but we
          don't think it will....)  The Red Lion is booked well into
          the 1990's.

Rumor #3: The Japanese Animation program is exactly the same program
          as in 1987.  We feel that the '88 program is much *better*
          than the '87 program, there are many significant
          differences.

BayCon '88 will be held at the San Jose, California Red Lion Inn May 27-30,
1988.

What is BayCon, you ask?

BayCon is The San Francisco Bay Area Regional Science Fiction and Fantasy
Convention, and is held Memorial Day weekend each year.

The convention boasts six (6) tracks of parallel programming: 3
simultaneous panel discussions, readings, 24 hour a day Japanese Animation,
and 24 hours a day of current movies on BCTV (BayCon television).  In
addition, we have a gaming room which is open 24 hours a day (with breaks
to get ready for the next day :-)

Some highlights from PR1:

Writer Guest of Honor: SOMTOW SUCHARITKUL
   His books include the Inquestor series and The Fallen Country under his
   own name, and various other books under the pen name of S. P. Somtow.
   He has received the Locus Award, and the John W.  Campbell Award for
   best new writer.  His short fiction has twice been nominated for the
   Hugo Award.

Artist Guest of Honor: TOM KIDD
   Nominated for a Hugo in 1987, Tom Kidd brings a wealth of experience in
   the art field of book cover designs for science fiction and fantasy.
   His work has graced the covers of many publications including Avon
   Books, Analog, Berkley, Amazing Stories, and Doubleday Books, and
   others.

Fan Guest of Honor: JOHN MCLAUGHLIN
   John is a commercial artist by trade, and is a familiar face to local
   fandom.  Having started with occasional Spaghetti-Con parties at his
   home, he then became involved with the Space-Con series in the late
   1970's.  John started the current series of BayCons in 1982, and has
   acted in different capacities from 1982 to 1986 ranging from
   publications to 1986 chairman.  He produced the program book for
   Westercon 40.

Toastmaster: RON MONTANA
   Ron is the host of Creative Encounters on Gill Cable Channel 28, a talk
   show dealing with creative arts and entertainments.  Some recent shows
   on science fiction have featured Ray Bradbury, Richard Lupoff, and Marta
   Randall's writer's workshop.

   Ron is a novelist and screenwriter with five published books to his
   credit, including Sign of the Thunderbird, Echoes of Glory, and Death
   Calls. He has optioned four screenplays and his shorter works have
   appeared in Amazing, Fantastic, and other magazines.

Hotel Information:
   This will be our sixth year at the Red Lion Inn, because fandom tells us
   that it is a great place for a convention.  We believe we have been able
   successful in providing luxurious accomodations at very affordable
   rates.  These rates are significantly below the Red Lion's normal rates.
   Contact the hotel directly at 1 408 279-0600 for reservations and
   further information.

Wanted:  
   Ideas for guests, seminars, or events,
   Amateur Films for the BayCon film festival,
   Information coordinator,
   Art show staff, and more.

Further information can be obtained from one of the addresses below.

Baycon
PO Box 70393
Sunnyvale, CA 94086-0393
1 408 446 5141
INTERNET:  baycon@hpda.itg.hp.com
UUCP:      {hplabs,uunet,...}!hpda!baycon

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 16:46:46 GMT
From: locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Timothy Haas)
Subject: SF Convention - X-Con 12

X-Con is Milwaukee's first and formost Science Fiction Convention, now in
it's twelfth year. It is being held June 10-12, 1988 at the Red Carpet Inn,
4747 S. Howell Ave., Milwaukee, WI.

Our Guests of Honor are:
   Somtow Sucharitkul  -  Author GoH
   Bruce Pelz (Pres. of WSFS) -  Fan GoH
   Dell Harris	  _  Artist GoH
   Wilson 'Bob' Tucker - First Fandom GoH

Mailing Address: 
   X-Con, Ltd.
   P.O. Box 7
   Milwaukee, WI 53201

Volunteers are always needed for Gophers, Badgers, and Security work.

This year we are having an Ice Cream Social / Meet the Pros on Friday eve.
It is all-you-can-eat with part of the proceeds going to the American
Diabetes Association.  We are also sponsoring a blood drive this year.

Huckster Info: 
   Lon Levy
   P.O. Box 1505
   Milwaukee, WI 53201-1505  
   (414) 444-8888
Art Show: 
   Unconventional Art Exhibitions, Inc
   c/o Giovanna Fregni
   2104 W. Juneau Ave, Milwaukee, WI 53233-1119
   (Please enclose SASE along with requests for info.)

Program Book Ads: for info, write to X-Con Mailing Address.
Masquerade Info: Nancy Mildbrant, c/o X-Con.

In addition to all of the above, we will of course be continuing our video
rooms (yes, that's plural), filking, dance, and our usual opulent consuite,
and whatever other silliness we come up with and maybe some that you
suggest.

If you wish to be put onto our mailing list for the second Progress Report,
E-mail your name and address to me (locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu) or write
to our address above.

I am the Security Chief for the Con, and will be able to pass your
questions, comments, or info requests to the appropriate people.

Timothy Haas

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 00:12:26 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhya!whh@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Bayfilk IV

Coming soon, to a hotel near you . . .

Bayfilk II + Bayfilk II =

Bayfilk IV
                       
Guests of Honor:
   Murray "Cheap Lawyer" Porath
   Sharon Porath

Listener Guest of Honor:
   Carol Siegling

March 4-6, 1988 at the Oakland Airport Hyatt Hotel in Oakland, California

Friday Night Concert
March 4, 1988   7pm to 1am
Free to convention members

Please make reservations before February 12, 1988
Call (415) 562-6100 and mention Bayfilk IV

For memberships, tickets, or more information, write or call:
   Off Centaur Publications
   P.O.Box 424
   El Cerrito, CA 94530
   (415) 528-3172

Hal Heydt                             
Analyst, Pacific*Bell                 
415-645-7708                          
{dual,qantel,ihnp4}ptsfa!pbhya!whh    

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 10:00:40 GMT
From: dick@cs.vu.nl (Dick Grune)
Subject: Shore Leave Con, July 1988

We heard there would be a Shore Leave Con somewhere in July. Anybody any
information on where, when and whom to contact?
 
Thanks in advance,

Dick Grune
Vrije Universiteit
de Boelelaan 1081
1081 HV  Amsterdam
the Netherlands
dick@cs.vu.nl
...!mcvax!vu44!dick

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 16:52:18 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: ALBACON

With the nomber of convention announcements appearing in this newsgroup
recently, all in the USA, I feel that a contribution from this side of the
water is needed to even things up a little. :->

The following is the announcement for the annual Glasgow convention
ALBACON. The wording is [almost] the organiser's.

A Short story contest is also being held in conjunction with the Glasgow
Herald to "encourage new science fiction writers" If anyone is interested,
either mail me (and I will think about typing in the information sheet I
have) or get in touch with the organisers and ask for a rulesheet.

NOTE. IMPORTANT. I am not involved in any way with the organising of the
conference. I am just supplying information for the readers of this
newsgroup.

Bob

				ALBACON 88

29th July - 1st August 1988	Central Hotel, Glasgow. [Scotland]

Albacon 88 is the latest in a series of large and succesful
science fiction conventions held north of the [Scottish] border.

In 1988 we will be celebrating 10 years of Glasgow conventions. Previous
guests include Harlan Ellison, Norman Spinrad, Joe Haldeman, Bob Shaw,
Marion Zimmer Bradley, Harry Harrison, David Brin, Anne McCafferty, John
Brunner, and Clive Barker. In 1988 we will continue our policy of bringing
famous and rising Science Fiction authors by having C. J. Cherryh as Guest
of Honour.

Albacon will have the full programme and facilities expected of a large
National Convention, including over a dozen SF films, talks and panels,
(some serious and scientific, some nothing like), a Book Auction, where you
can buy a book collection or bid to have the auctioneer eat your least
favourite work, a dealers (Hucksters) room, with book dealers from all over
Britain, a fancy dress show, Art Show with auction, the Rocky Horror
Picture Show, (with and without audience participation), Spaceflight, and
media programmes.

Albacon will have VERY LATE OPENING, (or if you prefer, very early opening)
bars serving REAL ALE. The organising committee are among the most
experienced in Britain, having run 13 previous conventions, including 3
British National Eastercons.

Held in one of the best convention sites in Britain, Glasgow's CENTRAL
HOTEL, Albacon has the enthusiastic support of the frendliest and most
co-operative hotel staff in Britain.  Hotel booking forms will be available
in our first Progress Report.

Two international airports and excellent road and rail links make Glasgow
one of the most accessible cities in Europe.  The city is also a major
tourist attraction, especially with the Garden Festival being held next
summer, and anyone going on a tour of Scotland will find Glasgow an
excellent base.

For details write to:

   Mark Meenan
   "Burnawn"
   Stirling Road.
   Dumbarton
   G82 2PJ, UK.

------------------------------

Date:     Sat, 30 Jan 88  12:16 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@rutgers.edu
Subject:  I-Con

Does anyone have any information on this year's I-Con?

Susan de Guardiola
degsusm@yalevm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 16:57:38 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: More British Cons.

After I posted the notice for ALBACON, I recieved this message about other
SF conventions in Britain, and got permission to reproduce it here.

Any replies should be directed to BPH6SSG@UK.AC.LEEDS.UCS.CMS1

Bob

For the benefit of those who've been mailing recently, here is a list of
all British SF conventions from February to August that I know of. If you
know of one that isn't listed, or of the cancellation of any that are, I'd
be grateful if you could let me know...

February 6th, LONDON. PICOCON 6: Imperial College SF soc. micromicrocon.
South kensington. GOH Terry Pratchett

February 26-26, LEEDS. LUCON: SF Society, Leeds Student Union, PO box 157
Leeds LS1 1UH. GsOH Bob Shaw and Duncan Lunan.

February 27-28, EXETER. MICROCON: Richmond Hunt, 51 Danes Rd, Exeter. GsOH
Terry Pratchett, Dave Langford, John Grant...

April 1-4, LIVERPOOL. Follycon: 104 Pretoria rd, Patchway, Bristol BS12 5
PZ. GsOH Gordon R Dickson, Gwyneth Jones, Len Wein & Greg Pickersgill.
[This is the biggy, the British national Easter convention]

May 21-22, LONDON. Creation Convention: 145 Mineola Blvd, Mineola, New York
11501 USA. Star trek, TVSF and Japanese animation

June 10-12 PETERBOROUGH. Congregate: Chris Ayres, Ayres Drive, Stanground
Peterborough. GsOH Terry Pratchett, Bob Shaw, and another (I think)

July 9-10 BATH. Falcon 3: 125 Roose Rd, Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria LA13
0EE. GsOH may include Colin Baker Sophie Aldred, Louise Jameson, Chris
Boucher, James Coomes. (Dr Who / Star Cops)

July 29 - August 1 GLASGOW. ALBACON '88: Mark Meenan, Burnawn, Stirling Rd,
Dumbarton G82 2PJ.  GOH CJ Cherryh

August 5-7 OXFORD. CONINE: Ivan Towlson, New College, Oxford, OX1 3BN GOH
Terry Pratchett.

August 19-21 WINCHESTER. WINCON (Unicon 9): 11 Rutland St, Hanley, Stoke on
Trent. ST1 5JG. GsOH Patrick Tilley and Michael de Larrabeiti

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 19 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Crowley (3 msgs) & Dalmas (4 msgs) &
                       DeCamp & Eddings (3 msgs) & Eddison (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 01:27:33 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>eric@venus.UUCP (Eric Read -CFI-) writes:
>>Has anybody mentioned John Crowley?  I just finished _Little, Big_ and it
>>was ->wonderful<-.
>
>   Yes it was, but this is a good example of a very rewarding book that
>can be hard to read. If you stick with it, it will repay the effort in
>spades, but I know a lot of people that quit after the first 60 to 100
>pages.  But you're right, it's a *damn* good book.

Permit me to disagree.  There *is* a payoff, but I'm not sure it's enough
to justify all that comes before.  (On the other hand, I found the lead-in
to be of above-average quality, if slow-moving.)  Personally, I found the
ending quite disappointing.  I don't regret reading the book, but it
doesn't make my all-time favorites list, either.

I suspect that most of those who give up part way through are not making a
mistake.  This book is not for everybody.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 88 10:38:39 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Crowley (Was Re: fantasy recs)

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:  [ on Little, Big ]
>>this is a good example of a very rewarding book that can be hard to read.
>>If you stick with it, it will repay the effort in spades, but I know a
>>lot of people that quit after the first 60 to 100 pages.
>
>Permit me to disagree.  There *is* a payoff, but I'm not sure it's enough
>to justify all that comes before.  (On the other hand, I found the lead-in
>to be of above-average quality, if slow-moving.)  Personally, I found the
>ending quite disappointing.  I don't regret reading the book, but it
>doesn't make my all-time favorites list, either.

You are making a big mistake if you go into either LITTLE, BIG or AEGYPT
expecting a wham-bang ending, complete with fireworks and celebrations; or
even, for that matter, expecting everything to be wrapped up neatly and
prettily.  Crowley doesn't write books like that - you have to take them as
whole entities or not at all, much more so than any other writer I know of
in the field, save, perhaps, Wolfe and LeGuin.

I recommend both LITTLE, BIG and AEGYPT to anyone and everyone, subject to
one proviso: as Frank Adams says,

>I suspect that most of those who give up part way through are not making a
>mistake.  This book is not for everybody.

And they are not.  If you like this sort of thing, though, Crowley is the
best there is.  I think of AEGYPT, in particular, as one of the best books,
period.  There's enough there for years of thought.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 22:34:29 GMT
From: astroatc!jojo@rutgers.edu (Jon Wesener)
Subject: Re: Crowley (Was Re: fantasy recs)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:  [ on Little, Big ]
>>>this is a good example of a very rewarding book that can be hard to
>>>read. If you stick with it, it will repay the effort in spades, but I
>>>know a lot of people that quit after the first 60 to 100 pages.

I know a couple of people who read all but the last 50 pages!  That's got
to be where the most interesting things start to happen!

>I recommend both LITTLE, BIG and AEGYPT to anyone and everyone, subject to
>one proviso: as Frank Adams says,
>
>>I suspect that most of those who give up part way through are not making
>>a mistake.  This book is not for everybody.

I'll have to agree with that, too.  I'm almost done with Aegypt and I was
wondering if anyone knows the accuracy of some of the history that is
talked about.  The story about William Shakespeare's youth, for one and the
magician/Dr. (who's name escapes me) whose crystal ball was scryed.

Is the reasoning behind moses having horns true?  The statue of him really
DOES have horns.

Personally, I find Crowely to be a very thoughtful (as in thought filled/
thought provoking) author.  He adds some really great touches to his
stories and fills them with some of the oddest lore I've ever read.  I
highly recommend him, but he's definitely not for everybody..

jon wesener
{seismo|harvard|ihnp4}!{uwvax|cs.wisc.edu}!astroatc!jojo

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 23:24:41 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: _The Generals' President_ by Dalmas

   I just finished reading _The General's President_ by John Dalmas
(actually, I stayed up all night to finish it off).  I was wondering what
others thought about it.

   [OH...this might qualify as a spoiler, so SPOILER ALERT]

   I found quite a few interesting ideas, and thought that the mesh from
today's reality to tommorow's fiction was handled nicely.  This is one of
those books that reminds me of the spy thrillers I read now and then.  The
basic premise: world in turmoil, recession, President resigns, new guy in
office with emergency powers and what ensues.  This is set about 15 yrs, in
the future, and there is one tech thing thrown in.  I liked the parts that
followed the new Pres., but had a few problems with the speeches that
Dalmas put in...they are very informative, but I found myself lagging while
trying to read them.  Overall, though, I did like this book.  On the new
Mac Scale, (0-5, 5 being best) I would give this a 3 to 3+.

Any thoughts?

Bryan McDonald
Univ. of California @ Davis
ccdbryan!ucdavis!ucbvax

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 18:36:42 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: _The Generals' President_ by Dalmas

ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDonald) writes:
> [...] I stayed up all night to finish it off[...] I liked the parts that
> followed the new Pres., but had a few problems with the speeches that
> Dalmas put in...they are very informative, but I found myself lagging
> while trying to read them.  [...]  I would give this a 3 to 3+.  Any
> thoughts?

Yep.  I didn't like it as much as Bryan did... certainly not to the extent
of staying up all night to read it (though I did stay up to finish the new
F.M.Busby book, _The_Breeds_of_Man_, which I may elaborate upon in another
posting.)

My reactions are similar to Bryan's in one way though: I too liked the
parts of the book that just followed the President's actions
straightforwardly.  But the "solutions" offered in those speeches he
mentions were remarkably simplistic, and totally incapable of having the
effect they were purported to have.  Dalmas would have been much better off
being very vague about what detailed political and legal reforms that were
going on, on the principle that it is better to keep silent and have folks
suspect you don't know what you're talking about than to speak out and
remove all doubt.

Further, the new technology thrown in was a distraction to the main ideas
of the book, and rather silly to boot.  All in all, I'd have liked the book
much better if it had dropped all detailed references to the wild "If I
were King of the Foreeeeeeeeeeest" stuff, and dropped the bogus and
distracting "new technology".  I would have given it, perhaps, a [***] on
the OtherReams scale.  As is, best I can offer it is a [**], and that's
stretching.

I read _Regiment_, also by Dalmas, at roughly the same time.  It suffers
even more from the disease of concentrating on details better left vague.
It had several good ideas, such as how an isolated set of human colonies
with a static technology base could arise, and what happens when the
organization that tries to keep the technology stable runs up against a
dynamic, expanding culture.  Good stuff, but the details just ruin it.  The
expanding culture are all smug religious fanatics, so superior you just
want to puke.  And basic increduilities abound, like using words in
posthypnotic suggestion that the subject does not understand, and still
having the suggestion be effective.  Yuck.  This one might have been a
[***] also, but with its warts it comes out as a [*] or worse.

Now, it seems to me that Dalmas can avoid these problems.  I'm thinking now
of the fairly old _Yngling_ and _Homecoming_ stories.  I've been told that
they too reek of Dianetics-like underpinnings, but this isn't dwelt on in
anything like the detail of the other two more recent works.  I therefore
*would* rate _Yngling_ as a [***], or maybe even [***+] if one is generous,
and _Homecoming_ somewhat less, perhaps [**+] or [***-].

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 88 00:12:08 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: John Dalmas

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
[Various comments about other Dalmas works, saying roughly the same as
that which is shown below, deleted...]

>I read _Regiment_, also by Dalmas, at roughly the same time.  It suffers
>even more from the disease of concentrating on details better left vague.
>It had several good ideas, such as how an isolated set of human colonies
>with a static technology base could arise, and what happens when the
>organization that tries to keep the technology stable runs up against a
>dynamic, expanding culture.  Good stuff, but the details just ruin it.

[SPOILER ALERT]

I read _Reality Matrix_ by Dalmas. It is about a bunch of psychics saving
the world from chaos because *they* know that our universe is only a
simulation-game played by beings on a higher plane -- beings who
participate in the world be deciding to become human and accept the
limitations of our universe. In fact, *all* humans are just these beings
who have entered the game and temporarily given up the memory of their past
lives to play.

Now, this is a scenario that is sooooooooo vapid and overdone that you
might chuck the book aside just because of that. You probably wouldn't miss
much, but then Dalmas also does a lot to remove the "sense of wonder" by
concentrating on ridiculous details that have no place in the story, so if
you are a critic, don't throw the book away yet.

Not only do the characters spend half the book deducing that the universe
is created and maintained by a machine of some sort constructed by these
astral beings, but he goes so far as to make this an actual nuts and bolts
machine, like a V-6 with overhead cam and fuel injection, etc. etc., and
thence even farther into sheer stupidity when he takes us through a couple
of portholes into the plane of the higher beings and actually describes
what the machine looks like and what is wrong with it and how it must be
fixed and how the characters fix it and oh God enough of this please please
stop ohhh stop.

THEN, since the machine had actually been illegally sabotaged by a group of
beings who entered the game only to acheive personal power and glory on a
low level because they are just such scum in the *higher* plane, and some
of our heroes were massacred before they could get to the porthole, we get
a detailed REPLAY of history -- the beings wind the machine backwards and
allow our heroes to live a segment AGAIN so that this time we can have a
mushy happy ending oh God when will it stop oh please no don't do this to
us enough already have mercy have *pity*.

He sure did ruin a story that was already bad enough to begin with.

Kevin Cherkauer
....sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 03:23:01 GMT
From: auscso!edw@rutgers.edu (Edward A. Graham)
Subject: Re: _The Generals' President_ by Dalmas

I also have read this book, and found it interesting.  The best part of the
whole thing was the straight-forward, empirical engineering approach to the
solution of the nation's problems.  The speeches Dalmas gave the Pres to
give were a bit on the dry side and repetitious to boot, and the ending was
a cop- out.  'Nuff said.

edw
...!auscso!edw

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 88 03:27:18 GMT
From: A6C@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: HAHA SF

rsingle@WASH.BBN.COM (Ron Singleton) says:
>     Try L. Sprague DeCamp's non-Conan stuff, it should amuse you.  In
>addition to "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents", both about a
>rather brash psychologist,
     
(who just happens to visit a few alternate universes.)
     
>I can recommend "The Collected Short Stories".  While shaky on the title,
     
_The_Best_of_L._Sprague_deCamp_
     
>I *know* it was published by Ballantine.  Some of the topics: a mermaid on
>a ladies' swim team; an icthyologist who has to breathe water for a while;

(in the shark tank, of course)
     
>Neanderthal passing as Irish; and, among others, some of the trouble one
>can get into trying to grow flesh back onto fossils.
     
   Respective titles: "Nothing in the Rules", "The Merman", "The Gnarly
Man", "Employment" (I'm not quite sure of the last two).  Be sure to read
"The Hardwood Pile" and the poems, too.
     
> Another good DeCamp is "Lest Darkness Fall", where an archeologist zapped
>back to ancient Rome (5th Century A.D.) tries to avert the Middle Ages.

The Dark Ages.  One of deCamp's best stories, though not as humorous as
some. It does contain some very funny scenes, however, including a truly
great escape.
     
     I would also recommend the "Unbeheaded King" trilogy, although it is
really fantasy rather than s. f. (the same is true of _The_Fallible_Fiend_,
which someone else recommended).  In fact, almost all of his stories have
funny parts, are well-written, *and* are believable even when far-fetched
(he tries to be true to both scientific fact (in s. f.) and human nature,
and still is able to come up with good ideas, even though his options are
more limited than those of most s. f. authors ;-)
     
Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 23:04:59 GMT
From: src-2di@thoth27.berkeley.edu
Subject: David Eddings

     Does anyone know when Edding's next book King of the Murgos is going
to be released?  Thanks.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 18:40:43 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

> Does anyone know when Edding's next book King of the Murgos is going to
> be released?

Del Rey has just announced that its release has been postponed till April.
(Look for it in March)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 15:43:46 GMT
From: bsu-cs!cmness@rutgers.edu (Christopher Ness)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

I thought "King of the Murgos" was already out?  This is going to be a
great series to follow up the "Belgaraid" (possible spelling error there)
series and would hate to miss any of the books....

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 00:36:53 GMT
From: haste+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Nightland, Ouroboros

ansley@sunybcs.uucp (William Ansley):
>And how about E. R. Eddison's _The Worm Ouroberous_ (sp?).  The
>pseudo-Elizabethan prose that that book is written in is really annoying;
>anyway I found it to be so.

You're joking!  This book is *marvelous*, once you get past the first
chapter or so.  Think of it as a the not-for-laughs fantasy equivalent of
"The Princess Bride" -- high adventure with everything larger than life.
One of the all-time greats.  (The ending is a bit annoying until you
realize why it's necessary.)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 07:00:59 GMT
From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Brian W. Ogilvie)
Subject: E. R. Eddison (was Re: fantasy recs)

cjh@petsd.UUCP (C. J. Henrich) writes:
>ansley@joey.UUCP (William Ansley) writes:
>>about E. R. Eddison's _The Worm Ouroberous_ (sp?).  The
>>pseudo-Elizabethan
>                                 Ouroboros
>[Did Eddison make that up, or did he get it from some suitably
>recondite source?]

I believe that the ouroboros is found somewhere in Greek mythology,
although my copy of Bulfinch's is several hundred miles away right now.  I
know "ouro" is the Greek prefix for "tail" (no flames, Greek scholars,
please!) and the word probably means tail-eater, hence Eddison's
description: "The worm Ouroboros that clutcheth its tail in its mouth."  It
seems too close to the Norse legend of the Midgard serpent to be chance,
especially since Eddison was well-versed in Norse mythology.

I rather like Eddison's style; it's thick, but like Spenser he wanted to
convey a concrete sense of the past.  I though it was quite effective,
although the little bit at the beginning with Lessingham and the bird was
too much to swallow.  (Ack!  The Pun Police!)

Brian W. Ogilvie
ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
{hao,uwvax}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil
(312) 643-7419         

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Saturday, 20 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 88  22:01:53 EST
From: Wolveri%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
To:   sf-lovers@red.rutgers.edu

One man's con report on Boskone 25, held this past weekend at the
Springfield Marriott and Tara hotels, Springfield MA:

PANELS: Probably the best part of the con; programming was rather varied
and generally of a good quality.

ART SHOW: Not nearly as scalped as preliminary reports would have it, and
there were a number of good works and artists.  The winnowing out was in
the amateur ranks; few were accorded places.

HUCKSTERS' ROOMS: As announced, many of the non-book sellers are gone, in
favor of book dealers. To a degree, I question the focus.  It is likely
that most attendees at the average Boskone live in close proximity to a
book dealer, and many near a specialty SF book store.  With the exception
of out-of-print, collector's editions, and used dealers, there's not a
whole hell of a lot that the SF fan can't get at Waldens, Booksmith,
Dalton, etc. On the other hand, patches, SF&F jewelry, movie stills, and
the various other paraphenalia are much more difficult if not impossible
for that same 'average' fan to obtain other than at cons.
   Still, to give NESFA its due, there was a scattering of non- book
dealers.

FILM PROGRAM: What's that? Films? Where. Seriously, B25 hit a new low.
There were precisely THREE films on the program, replayed twice apiece.
Only one held much value, if only as a historic bit of filmmaking: *A Trip
To The Moon,* billed by the con as the first SF movie made.
   I spoke to a concom member who had a hand in selecting the films who
said that renting most features cost $200.  By contrast, the film procurers
only were given a budget of 50 bucks per feature. I sure wish that NESFA
would just kill it off and save us the trouble of bothering about a film
program at all.  Obviously, it's a tremendous expense to them that they'd
be glad to be rid of.  As it is, the "film" program was insulting to
attendees.

OPERATIONS: Smooth. With a third of last year's attendance, there were no
apparent breakdowns in staffing or operations.  This could have been a big
difficulty, as NESFA was presented with three big problems: having to work
with two hotels, being nearly a hundred miles away from the bulk of the
normal setup work crews, and dealing with the hassle of Springfield
shutting down at 5 PM sharp on Friday. Obviously, things went fairly well
in this respect.

AMBIENCE: Awfully staid and, well, mundane, just as the Powers-That-Be
wanted it.  Without the color and life that the costumes and media events
imparted, B25 seemed like a large relaxicon. I'm still unconvinced that
banning the so-called "fringe" activities and elements were necessary.  It
should have been obvious that beefed up security, the banning of alcohol at
open parties, and the attendance limit accomplished the overt aims of
eliminating the rowdiness.  If Boskone no longer wishes to include the
diversity that made it a 1st class con, that's their choice. Just so long
as NESFA doesn't screech when Lunacon or Balticon becomes the new East
Coast Con To Be At.

MISCELLANY: Attendance fell through the floor.  Only 70 fans registered
Friday night, and not too many must have done so on Saturday.  Total
membership, including preregs, probably didn't go over 1500.  Don't be
fooled by the "official" membership limit of 1800; NESFA originally
expected to be sold out quite some time ago, and the 1800 "revised" limit
was to save face. While NESFA by accounts doesn't need the money, a 10
grand shortfall is no joke.
  Boskone 26 is scheduled for the same weekend, same place.  The intent is
to have another con or two in Springfield, so the memories die down a
little more.

OVERALL IMPRESSION: Sure, I had an okay time, but I don't know whether or
not it was worth 200 bucks for memberships, hotel, and expenses.  It just
didn't feel like a real SF convention.  Personally, I'm interested in
Noreascon 3.  Not too many people really believe that MCFI is all that
different from NESFA other than legally, and if Noreascon 3 is as limited
as B25, Boston won't get another successful worldcon bid for a generation.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 08:09:43 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet 
Subject: SF Convention - Hostigos

Hostigos is the name of the fictional counterpart to Central Pennsylvania
ruled by H. Beam Piper's _Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen_.  Hostigos is also the
name of the convention celebrating the life and works of H. Beam Piper,
which will premiere the weekend of June 10-12, 1988 at the Sheraton Penn
State, 240 S. Pugh Street, State College, PA 16801.
     
Information concerning lodgings and reservations is available from the
Sheraton Penn State, at the number (814)- 238- 8454.  
     
Our confirmed Guests of Honor are Jerry Pournelle (Author GoH) and John
Carr (Editor GoH).  Messrs. Pournelle and Carr are quite enthused with the
prospect of a convention honoring H. Beam Piper.
     
Usual convention activities will be present.  Included in the program are
huckster tables, as well as panel discussions and an art show.  Costumes
are, of course, encouraged.  We also intend to operate a video room
twenty-four hours a day during the con.
     
To receive further information concerning the convention, send your
(slowmail) address to the address below, or email a request to this account
(cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu)
     
   HOSTIGOS
   400 S. Gill Street
   State College, PA 16801
     
I will also accept questions at my slowmail address: 31 Atherton Hall,
University Park, PA 16802, and will answer these myself or forward them to
the appropriate persons.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 14:26:19 GMT
From: dee@cca.cca.com (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: SF Convention - X-Con 12

locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Timothy Haas) writes:
>X-Con is Milwaukee's first and formost Science Fiction Convention, now in
>it's twelfth year. It is being held June 10-12, 1988 at the Red Carpet
>Inn, 4747 S. Howell Ave., Milwaukee, WI.
>
>Our Guests of Honor are:
>   Somtow Sucharitkul  -  Author GoH
>   Bruce Pelz (Pres. of WSFS) -  Fan GoH
>   Dell Harris	  _  Artist GoH
>   Wilson 'Bob' Tucker - First Fandom GoH

I certainly have great respect for Bruce Pelz.  As a member of MCFI I was
one of those who caused him to be selected as Fan GoH for Noreascon II, the
1980 Worldcon in Boston.  But it does not seem to me that you are doing any
service by making up a title like "Pres. of WSFS".  The World Science
Fiction Society does not have any officers as such.  The Business Meeting
each year has a chairman, appointed by that year's Worldcon Committee, and
Bruce has been chair of a number of Business Meetings but so have I and a
lot of other people.  Bruce is to be chairman of the upcoming Business
Meeting at Nolacon II and I am to be chairman of the following Business
Meeting at Noreascon III.  (In fact, Bruce has gratiously agreed to be on
the Noreascon III BM staff and fill in for me as chair if for some reason I
am not available.)

The only continuing organ of WSFS is the Mark Registration and Protection
Committee.  Bruce is a member of this committee but not an officer of the
committee.

[World Science Fiction Socity, WSFS, World Science Fiction Convention,
Worldcon, Science Fiction Achievement Award, Hugo Award, and NASFiC are
service marks of the World Science Fiction Society, an unincorporated
literary association.]

Donald E. Eastlake, III
P. O. Box N
MIT Branch P. O.
Cambridge, MA 02139-0903 
1 617-492-8860		
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM	
usenet:	{cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 14:11:59 GMT
From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond)
Subject: Re: (none) (Actually re Boskone 25)

Wolveri@umass.BITNET writes:
>   One man's con report on Boskone 25, held this past weekend at the
>Springfield Marriott and Tara hotels, Springfield MA: .....  ART SHOW: Not
>nearly as scalped as preliminary reports would have it, and there were a
>number of good works and artists.  The winnowing out was in the amateur
>ranks; few were accorded places.

Given that attendance was down by 2/3rds, but Art show sales only went down
by about 1/3, I'd say people liked what they saw. And I know there were
good amateur works too, as I was one of FOUR people guarding bids on one
amateur's art at closeout, and had to give up another amateur piece to do
it.... If you mean NUMBERS, over 1/3 of the artists in the Art Show were
amateur.

>FILM PROGRAM: What's that? Films? Where. Seriously, B25 hit a new low.
>There were precisely THREE films on the program, replayed twice apiece.
>Only one held much value, if only as a historic bit of filmmaking: *A Trip
>To The Moon,* billed by the con as the first SF movie made.
>   I spoke to a concom member who had a hand in selecting the films who
>said that renting most features cost $200.  By contrast, the film
>procurers only were given a budget of 50 bucks per feature. I sure wish
>that NESFA would just kill it off and save us the trouble of bothering
>about a film program at all.  Obviously, it's a tremendous expense to them
>that they'd be glad to be rid of.  As it is, the "film" program was
>insulting to attendees.

The reasons for changing the film program (yes, I agree: it was a very
drastic change from prior Boskones, and we did say it would be in advance)
was not just money: it was an attempt to change the focus of the
convention. NESFA has never denied that. ((I personally think one of the
choices was poor-- I mean, _RADIO RANCH_??? Singing cowboys???))

By the way, there were four films and a few shorts: two of the main films
had similar titles (First Men in the Moon and A Trip to the Moon).

One film the one of the Co-Chairs wanted was _Solaris_, but we could not
locate it--does anyone have a RELIABLE source for this, or other such
films?

>AMBIENCE: Awfully staid and, well, mundane, just as the Powers- That-Be
>wanted it.  Without the color and life that the costumes and media events
>imparted, B25 seemed like a large relaxicon. I'm still unconvinced that
>banning the so-called "fringe" activities and elements were necessary.  It
>should have been obvious that beefed up security, the banning of alcohol
>at open parties, and the attendance limit accomplished the overt aims of
>eliminating the rowdiness.  If Boskone no longer wishes to include the
>diversity that made it a 1st class con, that's their choice. Just so long
>as NESFA doesn't screech when Lunacon or Balticon becomes the new East
>Coast Con To Be At.

Lots of stuff here.  I, personally, like to see some costumes, but please
remember that this was the first SF Convention for either of these hotels,
and that we had a bad rep from some Boston hotels as "the weirdos in the
costumes that trash the hotel".  While in REALITY the two do not go
together, in the minds of many mundanes they do.  And some costumes are
going to get mixed reactions from the mundanes waiting in line for the
expensive hotel resturant when they see them go by....

By the way, there was not a BAN on hall costumes: it was simply said that
"Hall Costumes will be discouraged".  Better perhaps would have been to say
that "Hall Costumes will not be encouraged", as thats what was done--no
hall costume awards were given this year, etc. I hope we can do SOMETHING
with costumes next year, although I still don't know what to suggest. Any
ideas?

In fact, NESFA repeatedly said that they WERE being very restrictive this
year, due to many factors we had no control over being forced on it--now
*I*, for one, hope there can be some more positive changes, and find out
just what limits are really necessary, and which ones are not.

As far as screeching about other cons---I'm sorry, I think this is just
plain wrong. Many of the NESFA people who work on Boskone go to Lunacon and
Balticon and Philcon (remember Philcon?) to work and enjoy them.  If one of
them attracts 4000 people and all the problems attendant to it, great!
Although I don't think it will happen: Lunacon, for instance, doesn't have
a big enough hotel that is affordable (ie: NYC hotels are big enough, but
cost way too much).  And Balticon enacted a membership limit years ago.
(If NESFA/Boskone had done that 3 years ago, I wonder what would have
happened? Would we still be running 2800 person cons in the Park Plaza? Who
knows?)

>MISCELLANY: Attendance fell through the floor.  Only 70 fans registered
>Friday night, and not too many must have done so on Saturday.  Total
>membership, including preregs, probably didn't go over 1500.  Don't be
>fooled by the "official" membership limit of 1800; NESFA originally
>expected to be sold out quite some time ago, and the 1800 "revised" limit
>was to save face. While NESFA by accounts doesn't need the money, a 10
>grand shortfall is no joke.

Don't be fooled into thinking that a membership CAP is the same as a total
membership figure.  Don't be fooled into thinking that NESFA was silly
enough to budget the con to NEED 1800 people when that was the MAXIMUM that
there could be, instead of budgeting breakeven for a much lower number. And
since pre-reg closed well before the con, NESFA had a pretty good idea of
how much cash they could count on, and what budget items might need
adjusting.

I haven't seen the official figures yet, but I suspect that the warm body
count was actually LOWER than 1500. I believe your numbers on at-con are
right for Friday--Saturday/Sunday added some too (around 30).

>  Boskone 26 is scheduled for the same weekend, same place.  The intent is
>to have another con or two in Springfield, so the memories die down a
>little more.

It's a little early to say what the long-range intent is. The con's only
been over for 36 hours.... But I think Boskone may be in Springfield for a
while.

>OVERALL IMPRESSION: Sure, I had an okay time, but I don't know whether or
>not it was worth 200 bucks for memberships, hotel, and expenses.  It just
>didn't feel like a real SF convention.  Personally, I'm interested in
>Noreascon 3.  Not too many people really believe that MCFI is all that
>different from NESFA other than legally, and if Noreascon 3 is as limited
>as B25, Boston won't get another successful worldcon bid for a generation.

Wait a minute here.  They ARE two different groups.  Ask Jim Hudson, or
Ellen Franklin, or any of the other people who belong to MCFI but aren't
particularly active in, (or in some cases even members of) NESFA, or who
sometimes don't even work on Boskone.  Yes, there is a large overlap in
membership.  But that does not make them the same.  (Just compare a NESFA
business meeting with a MCFI/N3 meeting. :-) )

The Worldcon doesn't belong to the group running it in a given year: it
belongs to the fans who attend it.  And there are many things about it that
are part of it--like a "real" masquerade--that may or may not happen at a
given REGIONAL, like Boskone, that DOES belong to the people who are
running it.  And Worldcons have other things too--like more space, more
time, more money, and more workers--that make it possible to do a lot more
of everything.  If MCFI was trying to eliminate things that are a
fundamental part of the Worldcon, like the Masquerade from Noreascon, there
would (rightfully!!!)  be a huge outcry.  They are NOT doing that.  What
NESFA chooses to do at Boskone is not the business of WSFS, MCFI, or
Noreascon.

Disclamer:
While I did talk to some NESFA members about this posting at the Monday
night worksession (more to verify my numbers/facts that anything else) this
posting is not necessarily NESFA's official position. Go ahead, blame it
all on me.:-)

Susan Hammond
svh@CCA.CCA.COM
{decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 22:48:39 GMT
From: terminus!bicker@rutgers.edu 
Subject: I-CON VII Convention

The seventh I-CON Convention of Science Fact, Fiction and Fantasy will be
held Friday, Saturday and Sunday, April 15, 16, and 17, 1988 at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook.

This year's Guests include:

   Anthony Ainley, The Master, DOCTOR WHO
   Poul Anderson, Guest of Honor
   Harlon Ellison
   Hal Clement
   Samuel Delany
   Charles Sheffield

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Star Trek: The Next Generation guest.
   (Hint. Hint. Hint.)
There is, as always, an extensive Science and Technology track.  Guests to
be announced.

This year's Film Program includes:

   Back to the Future          Robocop
   Close Encounters            Dune
   Forbidden Planet            Charlie
   A Boy and his Dog           and
   Star Trek: The Motion Picture
   Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
   Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
   Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

I am compiling a list of people interested in getting the most accurate
news as it comes available.  Send your e-mail address to me at:
	
...ihnp4!hoqam!bicker
...rutgers!ulysses!hoqam!bicker

Brian Kohn
I-CON VI Committee.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Saturday, 20 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 59

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Dick (9 msgs) & Garrett (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Fri, 29 Jan 88 08:27 EST
From:     <TCORAM%UDCVAX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> (maroC ddoT)
Subject:  Re: P. K. Dick

Mark Creaghe writes :
> Speaking of Dick, has anyone read _The Unteleported Man_?  I thought the
> premise (East and West Germany reuniting and taking over the world)
> decent...and he had really begun to create something out of it...  but I
> remember a long (50+ pages) drug trip, which made me lose patience with
> the book and never finish it.  Opinions?

I read it a year or two ago.  Not one of my favorite PKD books.  (I believe
there are some pages missing in the publication...)  Practically everything
I have read by him has something to do with various interpretations and
perceptions of reality (with the possible exception of his VALIS books).

Yeah, I did find his tangent into the drug trip (in _The Unteleported Man_)
to be a bit tiresome. When I got to that part I sort of went 'Here we go
again'.  Then again, describing trips is perfectly in place in his better
_The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldrich_ and is the basis of many of his
novels.  I don't remember how _The Unteleported Man_ ended (someone got
their reality screwed from drugs or something like that).

BTW, (speaking of reality....) a most overlooked PKD book is _Ubik_. It was
one of the best PKD books I have read. Anyone else read this one?  I have
seen a list of PDK books which included a book called (something like)
_Ubik (the script)_.  Were there plans to make a movie out of _Ubik_???
Anyone see this script?

Todd Coram

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 17:58:38 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: P. K. Dick

TCORAM@udcvax.BITNET (maroC ddoT) writes:
>BTW, (speaking of reality....) a most overlooked PKD book is _Ubik_. It
>was one of the best PKD books I have read. Anyone else read this one?  I
>have seen a list of PDK books which included a book called (something
>like) _Ubik (the script)_.  Were there plans to make a movie out of
>_Ubik_???  Anyone see this script?

Hmmm. Reality has blessedly little to do with _Ubik_.

I don't know how far plans to make a _Ubik_ movie had gone, but Dick did
write a screenplay for it (I've read it but borrowed it from a friend, so I
can't give publisher, etc.) The screenplay was...interesting. I'm actually
rather glad the film was never made; it would have been seriously damaging
to my sense of reality; also I would be unable to keep certain friends from
going to see it while tripping (don't try this at home kids! I'd spend
hours just scraping him off the ceiling)

The special effects Dick planned weren't fancy, or particularly expensive,
but very effective images. The doorknob regressing in Joe's hand..the
doctor and the hotel room fading off into grey..huge Ubik advertisments
appearing in the middle of scenes. Oh well, I guess we'll never be able to
see real PKD on the screen.

One of my personal favorite forgotten Dick novels was
_Galactic_Pot_Healer_.  Anyone else remember it? I'm trying to recall the
name of the book of prophesises (republished daily) that led/followed our
hero..can anyone help me?

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
617-453-1753
Lowell, MA 01854
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 22:02:40 GMT
From: ken@umbc3.umd.edu (Ken Spagnolo )
Subject: Re: P. K. Dick

TCORAM@udcvax.BITNET (maroC ddoT) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>Practically everything I have read by him has something to do with various
>interpretations and perceptions of reality (with the possible exception of
>his VALIS books).

Must have been a long time since you've read them.  The VALIS books I've
read, _VALIS_, _Radio Free Albemuth_ and _Divine Invasion_, seem to be his
ultimate 'things are not as they seem' books.

>BTW, (speaking of reality....) a most overlooked PKD book is _Ubik_. It
>was one of the best PKD books I have read. Anyone else read this one?

I've heard many people say good things about _Ubik_. Can't wait to read it.
Dick is definitely one of my favorite authors.  I even enjoy his less than
great books, because he has one of the most interesting styles of writing
that I've ever seen.  Fortunately, I usually don't have to rely on that
alone as many of his stories are great too.  In fact, I recommend _VALIS_
highly.  One note though. _Radio Free Albemuth_ came out years after
_VALIS_ (in fact, it was released only last year), but I read that one
first and believe I choose the order correctly.  If anyone disagrees, I'd
like to know why.

Ken Spagnolo
ken@umbc3.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 23:40:14 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: Philip K. Dick misc.

The Unteleported Man was originally published as a magazine story.  It was
too short to be published by itself as a novel, so Dick was asked by Ace
editor Don Wollheim(spelling right, I think) to expand it, otherwise he
(DAW) would have to publish it as part of an Ace double.  Dick expanded it
with the "drug trip" material.  DAW rejected the new material and the novel
was published as an Ace Double.  Many years later, as part of a deal to get
TUM and The Cosmic Puppets (according to the best research, Dick's first sf
novel) back into print, Dick was required to go back to the "drug trip"
material and reconstruct the novel so as to incorparate the extra material.
There were 4 manuscript pages covering 3 gaps in the "drug trip" parts that
had been lost.  He died before completing this task, and TUM was published
with the extra material, gaps and all.  Later, notes from Dick turned up
showing some revision work he had done on TUM as part of the project,
although he had not rewritten the gaps (one of them had been edited out by
Dick).  This version of the novel was published in England as Lies, Inc.
(either a manuscript title, or the title of the original magazine story).
Instead of leaving the gaps, sf writer John Sladek wrote material to fill
them ("in the style of Dick").  Still later, the 4 pages that had been
missing turned up among Dick's notes, and were published in the Philip K.
Dick Society Newsletter.

The Lies, Inc. version is probably the definitive version (especially if
the real gaps are spliced in).  However, The Unteleported Man is not a
major Dick novel, and it would be just as well if the original version was
considered the "real" novel.  The extra material was stuck at the end of
the original novel, and only a sentence or two was deleted from the end of
it (as I recall, there were two editions of the original version: the
original Ace double, and an Ace double pairing TUM with another Dick
novel).  In Lies, Inc., which I haven't read, the material is rewritten and
"refitted" somewhat, and probably reads a bit better.

Dick wrote a Ubik screenplay when an independent French producer was trying
to get a Ubik movie made.  The project collapsed, and Dick was stuck with
the screenplay.  It was published posthumously in a beautiful edition from
Corroboree(??) Press.  I have not read it yet, but I like the original
novel very much.  It has been in print somewhat recently from DAW.

Eye In The Sky didn't win the Hugo.  It is, however, a good book, and is
his earliest novel that routinely makes people's favorite-PKD-books lists.
I believe that it is scheduled to be back in print within the next year.
Time Out of Joint, another good early Dick book, was published recently by
a company that I had not heard of before (don't remember the name - I think
they are the ones publishing Eye In The Sky).  Time Out of Joint was also
one of the 5 Dick books published by Bluejay books in a "handsome trade
edition".

Another mainstream Dick novel is scheduled from Arbor House (which
published the critically aclaimed Mary and the Giant) this spring: The
Broken Bubble [originally The Broken Bubble of Thisbe Holt].  This is
thanks to David Hartwell, former editor of Pocket/Timescape.

Frank Hollander
Internet, CSNET: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu
BITNET: fth6j@virginia
UUCP: mcnc!virginia!uvacs!fth6j
      uunet!virginia!uvacs!fth6j

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 88 06:29:39 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: P. K. Dick

TCORAM@udcvax.BITNET (maroC ddoT) writes:
>BTW, (speaking of reality....) a most overlooked PKD book is _Ubik_. It
>was one of the best PKD books I have read. Anyone else read this one?

A friend recommended Ubik to me a few years ago, and only recently did he
find his copy to lend it to me so I had a chance to read it.  A really good
book, I think.  I haven't heard anything about there having been plans to
make it into a movie, though.  I'm still looking for a copy of the book, so
I can have one for myself - it's one of the best I've read in a while.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 08:53:01 GMT
From: COK%psuvma.bitnet@rutgers.edu (The Pentagonal Potentate)
Subject: Re: P. K. Dick

TCORAM@udcvax.BITNET (maroC ddoT) says:
>BTW, (speaking of reality....) a most overlooked PKD book is _Ubik_. It
>was one of the best PKD books I have read. Anyone else read this one?  I
>have seen a list of PDK books which included a book called (something
>like) _Ubik (the script)_.  Were there plans to make a movie out of
>_Ubik_???  Anyone see this script?
     
_Ubik_ is, as is typical for PKD, excellent.  There were plans to make a
movie of _Ubik_.  PKD even wrote a screenplay for it.  He completed the
screenplay in mid-October of 1974, and it was published posthumously in
1985.  My source, the excellent _Only Apparently Real_ by Paul O. Williams,
does not state who published the novel.  I assume, however, that it is
probably a small press.  I'd guess it's from Ultramarine, Borgo, Ziesing,
Hypatia, or another publisher of this sort.  I wouldn't even be surprised
if it were published by Axolotl Press.
     
The only portion of the screenplay I've read is the portion which concludes
_Only Apparently Real_, and it seems too hopelessly GOOD to be Hollywood-
moronfodder.
     
[_Only Apparently Real_ is Paul Williams' biographical book concerning PKD.
It consists in equal portions of straight biography and transcribed
discussions between PKD and the author.  It is an excellent volume, and is
available from Arbor House in an excellent trade paperback.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!
 psuvma.BITNET!cok        

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 09:02:22 GMT
From: gethen!cbm@rutgers.edu (Chris Muir)
Subject: Re: P. K. Dick

The Ubik screenplay is published by Corroboree Press, 2729 Bloomington
Avenue South, Minneapolis Mn 55407. ISBN 0-911169-06-7.

The book in Galactic Pot Healer has no name or author. It's refered to as
the book of the Kalends, but that is not it's title.

I knew having a complete PKD collection would come in handy someday.

Chris Muir
unisoft!gethen!cbm

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 20:45:58 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: P K Dick

I've just finished reading Radio Free Albemuth, by Dick, and found it most
interesting.  There has also been some discussion of other P K Dick works
around here.

Can anyone recommend a critical study of Dick's SF work?  What I'm looking
for is not literary criticism, but rather criticism that looks at his
sources, the philosophies on which his works are based, &c.  For instance,
I know that Ubik draws on the Bardo Thodol, but only because I've read the
latter work.  And I'm sure I'd enjoy, say, Eye in the Sky or The Three
Stigmata... if I knew more about the background.

Thanks in advance.  By the way, Dick contributed an essay to the symposium
'Science Fiction at Large' that is really strange.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 17:14:05 GMT
From: ken@umbc3.umd.edu (Ken Spagnolo )
Subject: Re: P K Dick

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>I've just finished reading Radio Free Albemuth, by Dick, and found it most
>interesting.
[rest deleted]

You really must find a copy of VALIS now that you've read RFA.  The two are
obviously linked (I'll let you find out how!) and VALIS is my current
favorite of Dick's work.  Also, if you like that particular vein, you might
check out Divine Invasion, which was ok, and The Transmigration of Tomothy
Archer, which was very good.  Both are related to VALIS in some way.

Ken Spagnolo
ken@umbc3.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 17:10:40 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Randall Garrett died

I've received word from Mike Resnick that Randall Garrett died on New Years
Eve. This ends a long, debilitating illness which robbed him of his memory
and basically has had him as a living vegetable for a couple of years.

Garrett, for those that haven't read his works, is best known for his wit
and use of humor and puns in his writing. His best known works are the Lord
Darcy series, an alternate universe where magic is the science and England
kept the Empire. His humorous writings, pastiches, and outright sendups
have been collected in two books by Donning/Starblaze, Takeoff! and
Takeoff, Two!.

Science Fiction has lost another one. Personally, I'm saddened at the
thought, but also glad in a way that the suffering he and his wife have
gone through in this illness is finally over.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 06:11:39 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhya!whh@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Randall Garrett died

     I am greatly saddened to hear of Randall's death.  I shouldn't be
surprised, though.  Those of us who knew him will miss him.  Permit me,
please, to reminisce about him here 'in public.'

     He used to hold the SCA College of Heralds meetings in his living room
in San Francisco and the puns flew thick and fast.

     In "Too Many Magicians," there are probably a few who still don't know
that Tia Einzig's uncle Neapeler--whose safety she learns about from the
Manxman, Freeman Colin MacDavid--is Napoleon Solo, her "Uncle from Man."

     He once wrote a short story in which he (as he described it himself)
"slapped a spacecraft across the ass with a wet rag."

     He stood out in the middle of a Tourney field as the day was drawing
to a close and the crown lists were not yet complete and announced in that
great voice of his: "I see we have a long day's Tourney into night."

     He fought in the SCA and his greathelm was 10-gauge steel with an
8-gauge face-plate.  The helm was named "Noli Me Hemipterare"--Don't Bug
Me, and weighed 17 pounds.  Randall was the only one with a strong enough
neck to use it.

     He was having trouble buying ammunition to use on the practice range
(he'd worn a suit to offset the effect of his long hair in the It had a
gold boar on it and the only way you could get one was by being a good
friend of a San Francisco policeman.

     He played the Lord High Sherriff in the early days of the Renaissance
Pleasure Faire.  All his Sherriff's Men were friends of his, all were
former military intelligence agents, and they wore black and silver and a
little gold-colored boar's-head badge (see preceding paragraph).  He would
get up on the stage and Robin Hood (originally played by s-f writer Jon
DeCles) would loose a bolt at him (and miss, of course).  Randall would
call for the Sherriffim to take charge.  "Yes, m'lord," says the
Sergeant-Major (Michael Kurland).  "Shall I round up the usual suspects?"
"Beware," Randall warns.  "My tactical squadron--" Arnulf Silkhair steps
out, carrying a war-club weighing twenty pounds or so-- "is authorized to
use Mace!"  (Thump, raising a cloud of dust from the stage.)

     Goodby, Randall.  We'll miss you, for all the good times and the
stories you wrote.  Even more for the stories you never got to write. . .
R.I.P.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{dual,qantel,ihnp4}ptsfa!pbhya!whh

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 88 02:14:14 GMT
From: well!hrh@rutgers.edu (Harry Henderson)
Subject: Re: Randall Garrett died

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>I've received word from Mike Resnick that Randall Garrett died on New
>Years Eve. This ends a long, debilitating illness which robbed him of his
>memory and basically has had him as a living vegetable for a couple of
>years.

    I never met Randall, but I've enjoyed his elegant and witty writing,
and have heard some of the classic stories about him.  I doubt seriously
that he now resides in the Baptist heaven, but I suspect he's doing just
find in the Mead Hall in the Sky, regaling all with lightning-quick puns.

    Indeed, a good way to remember Randall would be to have a Pun Festival.
Have every bring the most outrageous puns (audio, visual, or whatever) and
have a contest in pun-ups-manship.

Harry Henderson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 88 05:36:15 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: HAHA SF

I haven't seen Randall Garrett mentioned, so let me add

_Takeoff!_  and _Takeoff Too!_

to the list of books that make ME go haha.

Karen Black

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 22 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:

	       Films - Neuromancer & The Monitors (3 msgs) &
                       A Boy and His Dog (6 msgs) & Dune (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 05:46:57 GMT
From: Coyote@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Neuromancer

Doug Gibson writes:
> Over the summer, I saw advertisements on TV, including such things as
> telephone dial tone and dialing sounds and a green-phosphor grid, ending
> with the word "neuromancer" appearing on screen.  My sources tell me that
> this was an ad for a movie.  However, I have heard nothing about this
> alleged movie....  does anyone out there know just what is happening if
> that was, in fact, a movie ad, or what I saw if it was not a movie ad?

I haven't heard anything else except this excerpt from Cinefantastique, p.
27 Dec. 27th, "Cyberpunk, Future So Bright They Gotta Wear Shades", by
Brooks Landon:

"... Film rights to a number of cyberpunk works have already been
purchased, including William Gibson's _Neuromancer_ (Cabana Boy
Productions) and _Burning Chrome_ (HEAVY METAL producer Leonard Mogel).
That Gibson received $100,000 for the rights package to _Neuromancer_ from
a corporation formed exclusively for making that film suggest some of the
interest in his work."

The article went on to say that Gibson is currently writing two other film
scripts, Aliens III and Macrochip ( with John Shirley ).  Perhaps he's
going to complete these before working on _Neuromancer_ or _Burning_Chrome_
projects.

Mike Neff
neff@leadsv.UUCP
Wiley-E-Coyote@portal.cup.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 06:04:49 GMT
From: terminus!terry@rutgers.edu (terry)
Subject: We are the monitors, we're here to serve...

Anyone out there hear of a sixties-sorta movie (may have been earlier) that
was called _The Monitors_?

The basic plot was that aliens (you guessed it... *The Monitors*!) have
been on Earth for some time protecting the peace by keeping us yahoos from
killing each other... there were a number of plot complications, such as an
"implosion bomb", a crazy general, a love interest, a monitor training
camp, and other assorted loonies running around (or staying put).

What stands out most in my mind was a group of Monitors surrounding a
garage with a violent(?) person in it, and pounding loudly and fruitlessly
on these opaque windows and the unlocked door while a loud speaker played
pro-Monitor things at the garage occupants. "The Monitors are your
friends...  We are here to help you".

Among other things, it had commercials that must have been the protype for
those in RoboCop ("The 6000SUX; Becuase 'big' is in")... things like:

   Farmer: "I was illiterut inteel the Monitors tot me to red"
   Little Old Lady:"I just don't know what I'd do without them.."
   Jingle:"The mon-i-tors are here to day (hoo ray!)
	  The mon-i-tors are here to stay (hoo ray!)
	  The moooonitors are frieeeends,
	  To Evvvvry girl and boy..."
   Other jingle:"Weeeeee arrrrrrre The Mon-i-tors.....
		 Weeeeeeeeerrrrre Heeerrreee to serrrrrve..."
		etc.

WHERE CAN I GET ME ONE?
I am interested in:
		Video tape
		Soundtrack

Incidently, this movie had Avery Scriber and Larry Storch int it... I think
it was Schreibers first movie... plus people who are *ACTORS* now.

Terry Lambert
Century Software
SLC, Utah                                         
UUCP: ...!decvax!utah-cs!century!terry
     ...utah-cs!uplherc!sp7040!obie!terminus!terry

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 21:19:47 GMT
From: blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback)
Subject: Re: We are the monitors, we're here to serve...

terry@terminus.UUCP (terry) writes:
>Anyone out there hear of a sixties-sorta movie (may have been earlier)
>that was called _The Monitors_?

You might also enjoy the novel "The Monitors" by Keith Laumer.

The interspersed Monitor TV comercials are worth watching for alone!  I
recall that there is a cameo by Sen. Dirksen on one.

Great stuff. Very funny. See it. Aloha.

Brian Utterback
Cray Research Inc.
One Tara Blvd. #301
Nashua NH. 03062   
Tele:(603) 888-3083                   
UUCP:{ihnp4!cray,sun!tundra}!hall!blu
ARPA:blu%hall.cray.com@uc.msc.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 21:35:20 GMT
From: felix!daver@rutgers.edu (Dave Richards)
Subject: Re: We are the monitors, we're here to serve...

terry@terminus.UUCP (terry) writes:
>Anyone out there hear of a sixties-sorta movie (may have been earlier)
>that was called _The Monitors_?

I ran into this film many years ago on the late show, and have had fond
memories ever since (but you know how memories always seem to be better
than the real film).  As I recall it was a comedy, or at least very light
drama.  I would guess it was made around 1968-74.

One part I remember liking was when the Monitors were breaking up a group
of protesters in the park.  They were squirting the people with some kind
of foam that stops aggression.  Avery Schreiber grabbed the foam dispenser
and gave the monitor a dose of his own medicine.  It was great.

>What stands out most in my mind was a group of Monitors surrounding a
>garage with a violent(?) person in it, and pounding loudly and fruitlessly
>on these opaque windows and the unlocked door while a loud speaker played
>pro-Monitor things at the garage occupants. "The Monitors are your
>friends...  We are here to help you".

I'm always reminded of this film when I see THX 1138.  There is a scene
toward the end of that film that is very similar.  It's the one where the
police robot is chasing after Robert Duvall, culminating in a climb up a
long ladder to the surface.  The robot keeps spouting friendly banter as if
it were trying to be helpful.  I wonder if G. Lucas might have been
influenced by The Monitors...

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 15:33:05 GMT
From: mdk1@cblpf.att.com (Michael King)
Subject: A Boy and His Dog

I just saw _A Boy and his Dog_ for the first time this weekend and I loved
it.  Some of the lines the dog has are really funny.  Plus, Ellison puts a
really macabre twist on the end.  I would like to have seen more on the the
"Down Under" civilization: How it got started, where it got its background,
etc.  Also, I wanted to find out more about the "Screamers" (sounds like a
mutated Dr. Who companion).  Unfortunately, I saw it with my wife and two
friends who hated it.  Of course, *they* don't even like (should I say it?)
DR. WHO! gasp! :-)

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a copy of the
original novella.  Is it still in print somewhere?

thanks,

Mike King
UUCP:..!ihnp4!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk1

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 19:17:13 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

mdk1@cblpf.ATT.COM (41450-Michael King) writes:
>I just saw _A Boy and his Dog_ for the first time this weekend and I loved
>it.
>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a copy of the
>original novella.  Is it still in print somewhere?

I just happened to read this story. I think it is the last story in a
collection called _The Beast Who Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_.
Unfortunately, I would guess it is out of print. I got it from my
university's library.

Kevin Cherkauer
....sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 08:28:59 GMT
From: killer!elg@rutgers.edu (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

mdk1@cblpf.ATT.COM (Michael King) says:
> I just saw _A Boy and his Dog_ for the first time this weekend and I
> loved it.  Some of the lines the dog has are really funny.  Plus, Ellison
> puts a really macabre twist on the end.  I would like to have seen more
> on the the "Down Under" civilization: How it got started, where it got
> its background, etc.  Also, I wanted to find out more about the
> "Screamers" (sounds like a mutated Dr. Who companion).  Unfortunately, I
> saw it with my wife and two friends who hated it.  Of course, *they*
> don't even like (should I say it?) DR. WHO! gasp! :-)
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a copy of the
> original novella.  Is it still in print somewhere?

Just about everything that Harlan Ellison ever published is still in print,
albeit mostly in trade paperback and hardcover nowdays. The collection you
want is _The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart Of The World_. Check your
local Real Bookseller (i.e. not Waldons or B. Dalton), who will most
probably be glad to special-order it for you. I must admit that I was quite
surprised myself... I asked tentatively if anything by Ellison was still in
print, and lo and behold, a whole list of stuff on the microfiche...

[SPOILER WARNING:]

The Downers were the sort of nostalgia freaks you see around who are always
musing that "way back when" was the best place to be. So they hired a bunch
of technical wizards to build their self-propogating paradise, and then
killed them all (implying that it was the Downers who caused the collapse
of society?  I dunno).

As for the Screamers, apparently some sort of mutation. There's also hints
of nuclear war here and there, e.g. "we started across the blast wastland
that morning" (from the ending). I don't recall them ever actually running
across one in the story.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509      
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 08:54:04 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (The Pentagonal Potentate)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) says:
>mdk1@cblpf.ATT.COM (41450-Michael King) writes:
>>I just saw _A Boy and his Dog_ for the first time this weekend and I
>>loved it.
>>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a copy of the
>>original novella.  Is it still in print somewhere?
>I just happened to read this story. I think it is the last story in a
>collection called _The Beast Who Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_.
>Unfortunately, I would guess it is out of print. I got it from my
>university's library.
     
It was recently reprinted by Bluejay Books, and should still be available.
However, due to the fact that Bluejay Books printed quality books at good
prices, and did not pander to idiots, the company is now bankrupt.  Bluejay
Books had just previously started a reprinting of many works of the best
science fiction authors: Philip K. Dick (_The Zap Gun_, _Time Out of
Joint_, _Dr. Bloodmoney_, &c.); Harlan Ellison (_Ellison Wonderland_,
_Approaching Oblivion_, _The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the
World_, &c.); Theodore Sturgeon (_Alien Cargo_, _The Dreaming Jewels_, &c.)
and many others.  Due to apathy on the part of retailers, and possibly on
the part of fans, Bluejay went belly-up a year or two ago.  The company
which owned it, St. Martin's Press, still exists and publishes excellent
books.
     
Either way, snap up Bluejay Books reprintings, because they'll probably be
worth something someday.  They're all printed on acid-proof paper, and have
some of the best trade paperback bindings I've seen from a large publisher
(with the exception of Dover, of course).
     
In addition, Mad Dog Graphics is printing a three-issue mini-series based
on the stories, which is collaboration between Richard Corben (_Bodyssey_
and Heavy Metal magazine) and Harlan Ellison.  I've seen the first issue,
and it is certainly worth the price of admission (probably a couple bucks,
if you can find it).

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!
 psuvma.BITNET!cok        

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 17:33:39 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

mdk1@cblpf.ATT.COM (41450-Michael King) writes:
>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a copy of the
>original novella.  Is it still in print somewhere?

It's all over the place. The book I've seen it in most recently was Walter
H. Miller's(*) collection of stories "Beyond Armageddon". "BA", BTW, has
some pretty fantastic stories that overwhelm the very few bad ones.  Get
this book.

(*) The same Walter Miller who wrote perhaps the best post-holocaust novel
ever written, "A Canticle for Leibowitz".

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway 

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 03:39:16 GMT
From: ritcv!pxd3563@rutgers.edu (Patrick A. Deupree)
Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog

mdk1@cblpf.ATT.COM (Michael King) writes:
>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a copy of the
>original novella.  Is it still in print somewhere?

Don't quote me on this one, but as far as I know there was never a "book"
called _A Boy And His Dog_.  As a matter of fact, it was never in its own
book.  It started out as a short story that told everything in the movie
in, oh, somewhere around 50 or so pages.  Unfortunatly, I don't rememeber
which of his books it is in (I have the book at home, so I can find out
when I go home in two weeks).

According to Ellison in something he wrote at the end of _Night and the
Enemy_, _A Boy And His Dog_ is part of a long novel he wrote titled
_Blood's a Rover_.  However, he also said that sections of the book have
been periodically published, which means that a bunch of it is probably
dispersed between his 30 or so short story books.  As he put it "And that
novella is merely a small section of the full work which - if the reaper
don't cut me down - I'll get around to finishing sometime pretty soon."

So be patient and maybe we shall finally see the whole story behind that
short piece in about a year or two.

Patrick Deupree

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 10:44:20 GMT
From: polyslo!jmckerna@rutgers.edu (John L McKernan)
Subject: The movie Dune [Re: SCIENCE FICTION IS DEAD]

vonn@entropy.UUCP (Vonn Marsch) writes:
>Now the argument: Not only the critics hated _Dune_; I and everyone I have
>ever dicussed the movie with thought it was simply dreadful.  I would
>admit, however, that the movie was destroyed in post-production -- I don't
>think you can blame Lynch (one of my favorite directors) for the movie's
>faliure. Atrocious editing, *bad* special effects, unbearable voice-
>overs, and gut-wrenching music killed whatever art Lynch could produce
>with the mediocre script.

In my opinion the fundamental problem with the movie _Dune_ is that it's a
simple-minded literal translation of parts of the book. I found my self
recognizing exact copies of scenes and dialogs. Since there is no attempt
to fit the story to the medium, the movie is a hash of loosely connected
episodes.  Even worse, the intensity of the story is not supported by any
of the plot and character development found in the book. This leaves the
intensity of the actors completely unsupported, and makes the movie
ludicrous.

My favorite part of the movie had to be the rain storm at the end. Rain was
so utterly illogical and impossible on the Dune of Paul Atreiedes's (sp?)
time that I found it hysterically funny.

John L. McKernan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 88 00:21:10 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (John L McKernan) writes:
>In my opinion the fundamental problem with the movie _Dune_ is that it's a
>simple-minded literal translation of parts of the book. I found my self
>recognizing exact copies of scenes and dialogs. Since there is no attempt
>to fit the story to the medium, the movie is a hash of loosely connected
>episodes.  Even worse, the intensity of the story is not supported by any
>of the plot and character development found in the book. This leaves the
>intensity of the actors completely unsupported, and makes the movie
>ludicrous.
>
>My favorite part of the movie had to be the rain storm at the end. Rain
>was so utterly illogical and impossible on the Dune of Paul Atreiedes's
>(sp?) time that I found it hysterically funny.

I think that about nails it. They treated the novel as a screenplay that
was too long for one movie so they just chopped parts indescriminantly and
took a few chapters and slapped 'em straight onto the screen. No brains
involved, no effort to make up for the loss due to the things a movie
cannot do that a book can by employing techniques that are uniquely a part
of the art of filmmaking. A bad translation, and a partial one at that.

Also, I found that when I went to see the movie, there were about 4 of us
who had read the book and one poor guy who hadn't. Throughout the movie he
had absolutely NO idea what was going on unless we explained it to him, and
of course when we got to the rain at the end, NONE of us had any idea what
was going on.

Kevin Cherkauer
....sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 88 01:03:54 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Also, I found that when I went to see the movie, there were about 4 of us
>who had read the book and one poor guy who hadn't. Throughout the movie he
>had absolutely NO idea what was going on unless we explained it to him,
>and of course when we got to the rain at the end, NONE of us had any idea
>what was going on.

I, of course, now realize that this is just another pitiful example of the
overwhelming need moviegoers of the 1980's have to view a "happy" ending.

Kevin Cherkauer
....sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 22 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:

			Books - Donaldson (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 27 Jan 88 16:16:12-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: bad guy TC, and Watchmen

Not to open a can of feminist worms here, but...  It seems that mostly
women are violently objecting to TC on grounds of his having raped a girl.
One woman has asserted that no book in which the main character commits
rape can possibly be good!

I want to know why rape has this mystical significance.  Consider how many
fantasy books have hack-and-slash warriors, thieves, even assassins (e.g.
SKZ Brust's series, popular with sf-lovers), but no one ever objects to
that!  Nor do I -- I am not putting down these other books, just asking why
do some people get so emotionally upset at rape, yet not mind reading about
a main character who kills, steals or assassinates?  For that matter,
Severian is a torturer in Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, a fantastic book!
I'm not a woman, but if I were, I would surely rather be raped than
tortured to death.  So what gives here?  Is it because the threat of rape
is more common in our society than the threat of torture or murder?  Is it
just that we have been socialized to be told "Rape is really really bad"?

Anyway, given that rape is bad (and I certainly agree it is) I can't
understand categorically claiming that TC is therefore bad because it
contains a rape scene with the main character.  As one person has already
pointed out, Crime and Punishment is an excellent book in which the main
character commits a cold murder.  And endless other example exist.  This
idea that the main character has to always be good and agreeable is
nonsense.  

One anti-TC asked whether it would still be ok if TC were a woman and had
killed a baby.  I say, SURE, if it fit into the story.  Hell, in Macbeth,
Lady Macbeth claims she would willingly rip a baby from her breast and dash
its brains against the wall if she had sworn as her husband had (although
she doesn't actually do it.)  And in fact I am told by my wife that in the
Darkover series of MZBradley, women DO kill babies, those that "don't have
souls" (I don't know the details on the rationale for this.)

Another anti-TC said that "even if TC thought it was a dream, he was still
evil" and that anyone who had a dream where they commited rape was a sick
person.  Well, not to get into pop psychology here, but I understand that
violent dreams are rather common, and are in fact viewed as healthy
releases (better to commit violence in a dream than in real life.)  I know
I've had dreams in which I commited acts I wouldn't in real life.  And if
you say you haven't, you're probably not remembering them.  In any case,
it's irrelevant because even if TC is a "bad guy" that doesn't make the
BOOKS bad.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 07:00:28 GMT
From: rr23+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ronald George Redmond)
Subject: 7th Covenant Book

The reason for the summarizing of the journey to the giant homeland was
that Donaldson's editor informed him that his book was too long; and so he
had to cut out a chapter.

Ronald G. Redmond

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 88 16:03:57 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@rutgers.edu>
Subject:      TC speculation

Ok. Thirty years after Linden returns from the Land, she starts having
dreams about Foul returning yet again.  She uses her health-sense and the
power of the white gold to travel to the Land, where she encounters the new
Council (I'd use something else, but no thesaurus handy). They don't
believe that Foul could be returning again, and refuse to help her.  In
disgust she travels back to our world, only to be summoned in a few months
(say, 200 years on the Land time-scale). Foul has decided on all-out
attack, to totally destroy all life in the Land, and from there, in the
world. She goes to the heart of Revelstone, rouses the Stone with wild
magic, and emprisons Foul within it.  However, she keep her power alight to
keep him in, and when she no longer can, he breaks free.  She returns to
her world, to await the next summons, which is sure to be quickly
forthcoming. End of book.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Jan 88 09:27:58-EST
From: Laura Burchard <LAURA@vax.darpa.mil>
Subject: thomas covenant
 
Danny Leob writes:
>Even if I thought I was dreaming I wouldn't go around shooting everyone,
>because that wouldn't be fun. However, I could easily rape someone (or
>imagine Cheryl Tiegs raping me). There is no danger of my doing this in
>reality since I am a very sensitive person who derives the majority of my
>pleasure from the pleasure of others.

Here I think we have the basic disagreement. To me rape is on a par with
'going around shooting everyone'. I can't IMAGINE anybody thinking 'it
would be fun'. Doesn't mean it wouldn't show up in someone's fantasies;
people dream about killing people as well. But such people make me nervous,
and so would someone who dreamed of raping people.
 
Laura Burchard
laura@vax.darpa.mil

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 16:45:44 GMT
From: jim@xn.ll.mit.edu (Jim L. Washburn)
Subject: Re: thomas covenent

   I don't really think it is reasonable to condemn somebody for what they
dream.  As far as I know it is not possible to control your dreams.  If it
was I would sure like to know how as often my dreams are unpleasant.

   Daydreams on the otherhand are completely different and I too would be
nervous around somebody who often daydreamed of murder or rape.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 88 18:13:38 GMT
From: esunix!rushfort@rutgers.edu (Kevin Rushforth)
Subject: Re: 7th Covenant Book

OLIPHANT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU (Steve Oliphant) says:
> Has anyone ever read (or seen) the SEVENTH book in the series about
> Thomas Covenant? I saw it a few years ago. It was a small book (about 60
> pages) containing material that was cut out of the first trilogy. It was
> the full story of the a journey (made by some of the main characters)
> that was described to Thomas Covenant. I think that it was the journey to
> the Giants homeland. Unfortunately, I do not remember the Thomas Covenant
> books well enough to reconstruct the story.

The "SEVENTH book" you refer to was published as a short story included in
SRD's collection of short stories titled: _Daughter of Regals and Other
Tales_ (copyright 1984).  The story is called "Gilden-Fire" and tells one
part of the unsuccessful attempt by the Bloodguard (and Lords Shetra and
Hyrim) to journey to Seareach to obtain help from the Giants.
"Gilden-Fire" was was originally a chapter in _The Illearth War_ but was
cut partly because of the length of the book and partly because it would
have given too much evidence to support the conclusion that Covenant was
not dreaming.

Kevin C. Rushforth
Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax,decvax,allegra}!decwrl!esunix!rushfort
      {bellcore,cbosgd,ulysses}!utah-cs!esunix!rushfort

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 10:23:34 GMT
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

rushfort@esunix.UUCP (Kevin Rushforth) writes:
>...I liked both Thomas Covenant trilogies.  In fact, the first trilogy is
>my all time favorite work of fiction in *any* category (followed very
>closely by "The Lord of the Rings"). ...

Hear, hear. The text on the back cover of my copy of "Lord Foul's Bane"
stated that it was "comparable to Tolkien at his best". To my great
surprise I had to agree after reading the book. To my even greater
surprise, the next volume was even better.

Covenant is certainly an extremely unsympathetic person (in the beginning
at least), but I don't read books to find out how nice and heroic the
protagonists are, so I really don't care.

Granted, Donaldson's style is somewhat cumbersome and when reading volume
5, the series of events not leading anywhere started to get slightly
irritating.

Still, I consider Donaldson one of the best fantasy writers I've read and
his short stories ("Daughter of Regals") is superb.

Lars-Henrik Eriksson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science
Phone: +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN
lhe@sics.se

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 15:05:34 GMT
From: mtgzz!eme@rutgers.edu (XMRP20000[khw]-e.m.eades)
Subject: Re: thomas covenant

Danny Leob writes:

> Even if I thought I was dreaming I wouldn't go around shooting everyone,
> because that wouldn't be fun. However, I could easily rape someone (or
> imagine Cheryl Tiegs raping me). There is no danger of

If you are fantasizing about being raped, it's probably not really rape you
are considering.  Being raped means, you are not excited, and don't want it
to happen.  You are being violated.  What you seem to be thinking about has
often been called forced seduction.  (i.e. you really want it to happen,
you really enjoy it, but you have moral (or whatever) objections so you
feel you shouldn't.  Someone else is just taking the responsibility of the
decision off your hands so you can sit back and enjoy it without feeling
guilty.)

> my doing this in reality since I am a very sensitive person who derives
> the majority of my pleasure from the pleasure of others.

I have not read TC, but theses are the reasons I've heard as objections
about TC:
   1) it trivializes rape
   2) the rape was unneccessary to the plot
   3) Convenant is thoroughly repugnant even if you ignore the rape

Beth Eades

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 03:18:20 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!lamc!dhawk@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (David Hawkins)
Subject: Re: thomas covenant ** SPOILERS!! **

Beth Eades wrote:
>I have not read TC, but theses are the reasons I've heard as objections
>about TC:
>   1) it trivializes rape
>   2) the rape was unneccessary to the plot
>   3) Convenant is thoroughly repugnant even if you ignore the rape

Arrggh!  I've stayed out of this so far, but I disagree with all three of
these points.
 
1. It trivializes rape: No.  Covenant has to deal with the consequences of
the rape all through all 6 books.  I wouldn't consider that a trivial
consequence.  All the major characters are affected.

2. Unneccesary to the plot: Depends on what you think the purpose of the
plot was.  If Donaldson is drawing analogies between Covenant's rape of
Lena and Foul's rape of the Land then the rape is necessary.  I consider
that analogy important to understanding the entire series.  The
philosophical question is "Do victims create more victims, or are victims a
natural consequence of life?"  The books explore the concept of Foul as a
victim, as well as the Land, Covenant, and Lena.

3. Covenant is Thoroughly Repugnant: Depends on how much sympathy you have
for lepers and their condition, or how much you can identify with it.  It's
an exploration of power and powerlessness.  I just haven't seen it done
better than the Covenant series.  Is Foul all powerful or totally
powerless?  Is the Creator?  Is Covenant?  I never thought of Covenant as
repugnant, but then you haven't met some of my relatives.

I have the first four books in paperback and the last two in hardcover.  I
rushed out to get the last two because the 4th and 5th books were so good
at conveying despair.  I was too hooked to give up on the series.  If I
want to explore despair, I re-read the series.  I guess I read it once a
year or so.  Each time it causes me to consider some of the philosophical
questions that Donaldson is dealing with.

The only book that comes to mind as comparable is Lindholm's _Wizard of the
Pigeons_.  Hey, and maybe I'm reading stuff into both that's not there.
But it's made a difference in my life that the hobbit stories didn't.  8-)
I WANT TO LIVE IN THE LAND!

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 19:47:54 GMT
From: csuna!aeusesef@rutgers.edu (sean fagan)
Subject: Re: thomas covenant

eme@mtgzz.UUCP writes:
[Lots of stuff deleted]
>I have not read TC, but theses are the reasons I've heard as objections
>about TC:
>   1) it trivializes rape
>   2) the rape was unneccessary to the plot
>   3) Convenant is thoroughly repugnant even if you ignore the rape

The rape *was* necessary to the plot.  It set up the original reason why TC
was feeling guilty throughout the entire sextology (or duo-trilogy; take
your pick).  The major point Donaldson makes (in my opinion) is that guilt
is a very strong emotion; TC felt guilty about getting leprosy and forcing
his wife to abandon him, he felt guilty about raping Lena, he felt guilty
about not being able to help the wraiths (??? the spring-time act of great
and tremendous beauty that was disrupted during his voyage to see the
Lords), he felt guilty about just about everything.  The only reason he
ever did anything was because he felt too guilty to *NOT* do anything
(that, and anger).  Also, he prevented himself from trying to destroy Foul
outright because 'you can't destroy despair...I don't want the guilt of
that on my hands' (or something like that).  Was TC repugnant?
(hesitantly) No, what he was was a man who had had too much dumped on him
(disgust from the town, his wife leaving him, possibly infecting his
son...) and now had more responsibility than he wanted.  Although he kept
objecting to the existence of the Land, he *really* wanted to believe in it
(as evidenced when he returned the second time, after Elena died).  I don't
think he was repugnant, just pitiful.

Sean Eric Fagan
Office of Computing/Communications Resources
Suite 2600
5670 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
(213) 852 5742
1GTLSEF@CALSTATE.BITNET
{litvax,rdlvax,psivax,hplabs,ihnp4}!csun!csuna!aeusesef

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 10:10:53 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson) says:
>Hear, hear. The text on the back cover of my copy of "Lord Foul's Bane"
>stated that it was "comparable to Tolkien at his best". To my great
>surprise I had to agree after reading the book. To my even greater
>surprise, the next volume was even better.

I've always wondered what the blurb writer meant. Does he mean Donaldson at
his best is comparable with Tolkien or that Donaldson is comparable with an
on-top-form Tolkien?

My view (FWIW) is that the first version is reasonable and that the
semi-literate blurbist meant the second.

>Covenant is certainly an extremely unsympathetic person (in the beginning
>at least), but I don't read books to find out how nice and heroic the
>protagonists are, so I really don't care.

Agreed. Covenant may be an arsehole; but (for the first few hundred pages
at least) he's an *interesting* arsehole.
 
>Granted, Donaldsons style is somewhat cumbersome and when reading volume
>5, the series of events not leading anywhere started to get slightly
>irritating.

True. Also, what about his clumsy names? Hmmm, sailing Giant on a quest,
er... sea == foam, quest == following... Gotcha!!!

There are many more examples of crass names thoughout both trilogies.

>Still, I consider Donaldson one of the best fantasy writers I've read and
>his short stories ("Daughter of Regals") is superb.

Mordant's Need is a *vast* improvement on his previous efforts.

Peter Kendell
pete@tcom.stc.co.uk
uunet!}mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 20:18:00 GMT
From: inmet!justin@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant

eme@mtgzz.UUCP writes:

>I have not read TC, but theses are the reasons I've heard as objections
>about TC:
>   1) it trivializes rape
>   2) the rape was unneccessary to the plot
>   3) Convenant is thoroughly repugnant even if you ignore the rape

Here I have to put in my $.02. I can see where some of the objectors to
this series are coming from: unless you can deal with a series where the
main character is *really* screwed up, this book is not for you. However,
points 1 and 2 above are *entirely* off-base. The rape is in no way
unnecessary to the plot; the rape *is* the plot of the first trilogy.
Covenant spends the entire first three books being cast hither and yon by
forces that are now almost completely beyond his control, many of which
were started by the horrible act that he committed when he first arrived in
the Land.

Point three isn't really right either; in fact, that brings up my one
problem with the rape scene. Throughout the series, Covenant is a true
asshole, but he *isn't* insane. Given his character, especially at the
beginning of the series, I can't see him losing control like that.

I won't say that Covenant is likeable, but he is a fascinating character to
study. He is so completely out of touch with reality by the beginning of
the story that he simply can't tell what's real, and what's not.  Moreover,
he knows that, and it frightens him terribly. If you can deal with a real
antihero, read Lord Foul's Bane all the way through. If you find that you
are still interested, you will probably like the entire series. Otherwise,
don't bother; the story gets bleaker and bleaker for the next five books.

Mark Waks 
Intermetrics, Inc.
(617) 661-1840, x4704
...{ihnp4, mirror, ima}!inmet!justin
justin@inmet.inmet.com

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Dvorkin (4 msgs) & Gerrold (5 msgs) &
                       Gibson & Goulart & Rohan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 14:05:21 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: BUDSPY by David Dvorkin

			  BUDSPY by David Dvorkin
			Watts, 1987, 0-531-15053-4
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Alternate history novels seem to come in clumps and, sure enough, hard
on the heels of Aldiss's THE YEAR BEFORE YESTERDAY comes David Dvorkin's
BUDSPY.  I want to make clear that I don't for a minute think that Dvorkin
stole the idea from Aldiss--it takes much longer to write a book and get it
published than that would allow.  But I think every once in a while there's
a publishing trend, and publishers start buying more alternate histories.
And the premise of this alternate history?  You guessed it--it's another
"Germany won World War II" story.  The cover of Aldiss's book shows a Union
Jack with a swastika super-imposed; the cover of this book shows a computer
image of the Capitol building with a swastika rising in the background.  I
wonder if someday someone will sponsor an alternate history art show.  Now
*that* would be original!

     Well, back to Dvorkin's book.  Most authors who follow the Reich-
triumphant school of alternate histories emphasize the atrocities and
outrages of the Nazis.  Some, in fact, seem aimed at the thrill-seekers who
enjoy reading about that sort of thing, much as the film CALIGULA was not
designed so much as a brilliantly researched historical epic as a soap
opera that emphasized the erotic and decadent over everything else.
Dvorkin, to his credit, takes a different approach.  Hitler was killed by a
Russian attack while inspecting the Eastern Front.  After his death, those
who took control reversed some of his policies, including releasing all
those in the death camps and establishing a Jewish state as a refuge for
them.  I find this unconvincing, especially the additional detail that
Adolf Eichmann led this project.  But passing that over, Dvorkin manages to
convince the reader that this pulling back from the extremes has resulted
in Germany's eventual victory and stability.

     Ah, but things are never as they seem.  Chic Western has been sent to
the embassy in Berlin by the United States as a "budspy," an undercover
agent sent to spy upon his fellow Americans.  He finds Germany both
oppressive--it is after all a fascist state--and flourishing.  With its
victory has come a certain level of economic success and national pride.
But he gradually finds that the public face of the Third Reich covers many
of the same horrors that were thought to have been abandoned.  The novel
splits roughly into two parts: the first is spent giving the background of
this world; the second examines how Western reacts to this and to his role
as budspy in general.

     The main characters were interesting and well-developed, though the
subsidiary characters seemed to be sketchily drawn.  The background was far
more interesting than the characters, though, and by the end I found the
characters had been swallowed up by it--as indeed they were in the novel
itself, but that's something you'll have to discover for yourself.  On the
whole, a decent novel with an interesting approach.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 19:13:43 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: BUDSPY by David Dvorkin

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>			   BUDSPY by David Dvorkin
>		     Watts, 1987, 0-531-15053-4, $17.95.
>		      A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

Many thanks for another good book review.  I'll probably wait for the
paperback, since after Hogan's Proteus Operation and Benford's anthology,
stories of Nazi victory seem a bit played out.

I had one small comment:

> ... Hitler was killed by a Russian attack while inspecting the Eastern
>Front.  After his death, those who took control reversed some of his
>policies, including releasing all those in the death camps and
>establishing a Jewish state as a refuge for them.  I find this
>unconvincing, especially the additional detail that Adolf Eichmann led
>this project...

Readers of alternative history need to keep alert, or they may miss some of
the deeper ironies.  Like the "Polish annexations" of Lord Darcy's world,
the above is not fictional history, but a logical extrapolation of true
history.  A very similar arrangement - the so-called Haavera Agreement -
existed between the Nazis and the Zionists between 1933 and 1938.  Under
it, the Reich would assist Jewish emigration to Palestine, and the various
Zionist organisations would rescind their proposed boycott of German goods.
Even as late as 1941, the Stern Gang were trying to resuscitate this deal,
through the offices of Franz von Pfaffen and Rudolf Kastner.  The Nazi
official in charge of these negotiations with Zionist organisations,
between 1933 and 1941, was, indeed, Adolf Eichmann.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 07:03:01 GMT
From: bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: BUDSPY by David Dvorkin

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu.UUCP (Robert Firth) writes:
>Many thanks for another good book review.  I'll probably wait for the
>paperback, since after Hogan's Proteus Operation and Benford's anthology,
>stories of Nazi victory seem a bit played out.

   Yes, they seem quite the rage just now, after _Hitler Victorious_ Of
course this is only natural, that literature should be fascinated by the
most evil and influential character of our century, similar to the way the
Nineteenth Century regarded Napoleon.

> ... Hitler was killed by a Russian attack while inspecting the Eastern
>Front.  After his death, those who took control reversed some of his
>policies, including releasing all those in the death camps and
>establishing a Jewish state as a refuge for them.  I find this
>unconvincing, especially the additional detail that Adolf Eichmann led
>this project...

   I have to agree with Evelyn, I really doubt the mere elimination of Der
Fuehrer would be enough to trigger such a policy reversal on the part of
Nazi Germany.  Of course it was never the intention of the Nazis that the
news of what they were doing in their concentration camps would ever come
to light.  Too many Germans would be upset by it, only the elite was in the
know, although of course the peasants next door knew something wasn't
right, but they didn't want to know, so they made it their business not to
find out.

>A very similar arrangement - the so-called Haavera Agreement - existed
>between the Nazis and the Zionists between 1933 and 1938.  Under it, the
>Reich would assist Jewish emigration to Palestine, and the various Zionist
>organisations would rescind their proposed boycott of German goods.  Even
>as late as 1941, the Stern Gang were trying to resuscitate this deal,
>through the offices of Franz von Pfaffen and Rudolf Kastner.  The Nazi
>official in charge of these negotiations with Zionist organisations,
>between 1933 and 1941, was, indeed, Adolf Eichmann.

   Frankly it sounds like Nazi propaganda.  Not that I doubt you, but
didn't the Nazis have this idea of putting Europe's Jews in Madagascar?  Of
building them a model city at Theresienstadt, which was really only a
funnel to Auschwitz?  All Nazi propaganda.  And don't forget who *invented*
propaganda!

   Anyway, I'd think a complete overthrow of that regime would be required.
And that went out with von Hindenburg in 1934.  After that Hitler made
himself absolute ruler of Germany, purging the Brown Shirts and
establishing his "state within the state," the SS and all that.  A society
that makes Soviet Russia look benign by comparison.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G, 
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 20:40:35 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: BUDSPY by David Dvorkin

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
> Frankly it sounds like Nazi propaganda.  And don't forget who *invented*
> propaganda!

Right.  The Sumerians.  Or was it the Egyptians?  Or maybe...  Propoganda
has been around for a loooong time.  Read what the Greeks had to say about
the Persians, or other Greeks.  Or Roman views about the Celts.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 18:38:01 GMT
From: pur-ee!macintos@rutgers.edu (Thomas E Burns)
Subject: David Gerrold 

   About two years ago I read two books by David Gerrold- one of them was
called _A Matter for Men_ and I do not recall the title of the other one.
Anyway there was supposed to be a third book in this series that according
to Gerrold had been written but not published - has anyone seen or heard
anything about this book???

Will at Purdue

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 01:47:12 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: David Gerrold and Dean Ing

>About two years ago I read two books by David Gerrold- one of them was
>called _A Matter for Men_ and I do not recall the title of the other one.
>Anyway there was supposed to be a third book in this series that according
>to Gerrold had been written but not published - has anyone seen or heard
>anything about this book???

I mentioned this a few weeks ago, but I'll mention it again. Gerrold had a
little disagreement with his publisher over the Chtorr series. As a result,
the third book was never published and the others went out of print. He has
a new publisher, and the books should be published this year, with the
third book being out either very late in 88 or early in 89.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 09:40:57 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: CHESS WITH A DRAGON by David Gerrold

I saw this book in the store recently and perused the first few chapters.
I didn't buy it because it was in hardback.  I believe it's a new release
but didn't check the publication date.  (I'm doing this from memory so I
may have the title slightly wrong.)

The book is thin.  In fact, I'd say that it really is a novella published
as a novel (another reason not to buy it in hardback: who wants a novella
at hardback prices).

However, what got me was the originality of the ideas.  It seems that
humans have been withdrawing data from a Galactic database for years.  Now
their grace period is up and they have to pay for all that data.  The only
way to pay seems to be indenturement to one of the older species.  These
species are not very nice and have nasty things in mind for their
indentured races including (gasp) genetic modification.

Now the question is: don't you think some other authors (such as, oh,
maybe, David Brin) wish that they had come up with these ideas first?

To be fair to Gerrold, I did not finished the book and perhaps he comes up
with a suitably original ending so as to make the book worthwhile.

Dan Tilque
dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 16:28:45 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: CHESS WITH A DRAGON by David Gerrold

>I saw this book in the store recently and perused the first few chapters.
>I didn't buy it because it was in hardback.

You missed a treat.

>I believe it's a new release but didn't check the publication date.

Yup. It's part of the "Millennium" series packaged by Byron Preiss.
Putatively a Young Adult series that takes a look at the major themes of
Science Fiction, it's actually written more as a fun way of taking a new
look at old and mouldy themes.

The first book, "Legacy of Lehr" is by Katharine Kurtz and is also now out
in Bantam paperback. It's about spacetravel, and is basically a locked room
murder mystery in a spacecraft. With, by the way, vampires, telepathic blue
lions, and other standard SF stuff. By far the best of the series.

The second book is "The Dark Travelling" by Roger Zelazny, a time travel
tale/werewolf tale. Due out in paperback probably this summer. I found this
disappointing -- a better source for the same sort of material is Gene
deWeese's "The Ten Minute Werewolf". This is by far the most juvenile
oriented of the series.

The third book is Gerrold's, and it's LOTS of fun. Imagine a YA book with
cussing, cannibalism, orgies, rape, torture, etc. etc. etc. Better, that
stuff is all written in so that kids probably will never see it -- and it's
one of the most fun books I've ever read from Gerrold. Probably a little
too intense for some kids, frankly, but for adults, I'd call this the
sleeper of the year (good, but generally overlooked). It's a Walker &
Company hardback, by the way, ISBN 0-8027-6688-9 (data from otherrealms
#19).

>The book is thin.  In fact, I'd say that it really is a novella published
>as a novel (another reason not to buy it in hardback: who wants a novella
>at hardback prices).

Nope. A little short as a novel, but novel length. About normal for most
children/YA series, actually.

>However, what got me was the originality of the ideas.  It seems that
>humans have been withdrawing data from a Galactic database for years.  Now
>their grace period is up and they have to pay for all that data.  The only
>way to pay seems to be indenturement to one of the older species.  These
>species are not very nice and have nasty things in mind for their
>indentured races including (gasp) genetic modification.

It's LOTS of fun. 

>Now the question is: don't you think some other authors (such as, oh,
>maybe, David Brin) wish that they had come up with these ideas first?

Um, there's an implicity "too bad Gerrold thought of this" in here. Which
is silly. Since you haven't read the book, why are you assuming it's bad?
It isn't. Gerrold had LOTS of fun with it, and if you'd just read the
thing, you would, too.

Oh, the current book in the Millennium series is by Silverbob, which I
haven't read yet and don't have the title on. The next one (due out pretty
soon) is by Richard Lupoff, which I'm really looking forward to.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 20:43:18 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: CHESS WITH A DRAGON by David Gerrold

>I saw this book in the store recently and perused the first few chapters.
>...  The book is thin.  In fact, I'd say that it really is a novella
>published as a novel

I read the book where it was meant to be read -- in the children's library.
On that basis it's worth reading, but you will be misled and disappointed
if you don't realize what you're getting.

>To be fair to Gerrold, I did not finished the book and perhaps he comes up
>with a suitably original ending so as to make the book worthwhile.

While the ending is nothing special, the insight leading to the ending is
highly elegant.  It turns out that the Earthlings have been trying to solve
the wrong problem.  However, it also turns out that the 'right' problem
involves some extremely silly premises.

Not recommended for purchase.  If you have time read it in the library or
at the bookstore.  Gerrold completists should wait for it to come out in
used paperback.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 02:16:33 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Gibson again; this time _Count Zero_

After reading about Gibson bashing and joining in I decided to read _Count
Zero_ to see where matters stood.  I was surprised that the book - and, the
overall tenor of his style - remind me so much of Chandler or some other
hardboiled fiction.  And the admittedly interesting gimmick of characters
not just picking up a gun, but a battered Beretta-Sayeed flechette pistol
with a bootleg Israeli ranging lasersight clumsily welded to its barrel -
that's right out of the old James Bond books!

He's not a miraculous scratcher, but he sure knows where you itch.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 88 23:50:58 GMT
From: dalcsug!euloth@rutgers.edu (George Seto)
Subject: Re: HAHA SF

In the on-going debate about humour and the world of science fiction, I am
wondering why we haven't seen any mention of one of my favourite authors.

The person I am speaking about is Ron Goulart. His stuff is alway humourous
and quite a lot of FUN.

Enjoy!

euloth@dalcsug.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 88 21:52:00 GMT
From: kat@ico.isc.com (Kat Harriman)
Subject: Publishing Date Wanted

Does anyone know when the last book of the "Winter of the World" trilogy by
Michael Scott Rohan is due to be published?  The first two books are "The
Anvil of Ice" and "The Forge in the Forest".

Thanks ahead of time for any information about this.

Kat

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************


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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:

		   Television - Outer Limits (3 msgs) &
                                Blake's 7 (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jan 88 18:54:41 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@rutgers.edu (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Similarities between Blade Runner & Outer Limits

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>I don't believe anyone has ever mentioned the similarities of the movie,
>"Blade Runner", with an Outer Limits episode entitled, "The Replicant".
>
>The plot of the TV episode was that a dangerous and illegal creature
>escapes a wealthy Earthman's menagerie.  The creature is intelligent

It's called a puudly.

>and normally kills anything it can unless it's ready to lay eggs.  The
>Earthman, Henderson James, decides to have an illegal replicant of himself
>made to track down the creature.  Since replicants will develop
>emotionally in time, a lifespan of only a few hours is built into him.
>
>The replicants in "Blade Runner" and "The Replicant" are astonishingly
>similar.  Does anyone (like jayembee) know if Outer Limits credited Philip
>Dick for that episode?

Anyway, the "Outer Limits" episode described above was based a story by 
and credit was given to Clifford D. Simak.  The story is "Good Night, Mr.
James" in _All the Traps of Earth_ (1962, Manor Books).  The original title
of the story on its magazine publication was "Night of the Puudly" and I
remember *that* as being the title of the "OL" episode, not "The
Replicant".  The term replicant is not used in Simak's story, the duplicate
Mr. James is just called a duplicate or copy.

If I only had my copy of "The Outer Limits Companion" with me, then I could
settle the uncertainties above one way or the other.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 02:33:10 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: Similarities between Blade Runner & Outer Limits

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>The plot of the TV episode was that a dangerous and illegal creature
>escapes a wealthy Earthman's menagerie.  The creature is intelligent and
>normally kills anything it can unless it's ready to lay eggs.  The
>Earthman, Henderson James, decides to have an illegal replicant of himself
>made to track down the creature.  Since replicants will develop
>emotionally in time, a lifespan of only a few hours is built into him.

If I'm not wrong (and since I've never seen THE OUTER LIMITS I might well
be), what you've just described is one of the two TOL episodes which were
"plagiarized" in the making of THE TERMINATOR.

The guys at TOL sued James Cameron, and apparently won the case, which kind
of puts a damper on how good a film TT was if you think about it (and I
urge you not to).

Judging from your description, it does sound reasonably similar.

Actually, why doesn't someone knowledgeable post the plots, names, etc.  of
the two episodes to give us some idea of the similarity between TOL and TT.

amit

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 06:51:03 GMT
From: garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Similarities between Blade Runner & Outer Limits

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>I don't believe anyone has ever mentioned the similarities of the movie,
>"Blade Runner", with an Outer Limits episode entitled, "The Replicant".

I just happen to have (what an incredible coincidence!) an episode guide to
"The Outer Limits". It was printed in Starlog issue #4, March 1977.

The story you mention is not, in fact, called "The Replicant" but "The
Duplicate Man".

To quote Starlog:

"THE DUPLICATE MAN (12/19/64)
To recapture a murderous space creature, twenty-first century space
anthropologist Henderson James creates a duplicate of himself.
Writer: Robert Dennis (from a story by Clifford Simak)
Director: Gerd Oswald
Cast: Ron Randell (Henderson James), Mike Lane (the Megasoid), Sean McClory
(Emmet)."

It mentions nothing about the three hour life span, but just the fact that
it is a "duplicate" and not a "replicant" removes a great deal of the
similarity you assert.

Also, the original story is by Clifford Simak, and Philip K. Dick is not
credited. Ask Clifford if he got the idea from Dick.

Amazing what a room cleaning can turn up. Today it is the Starlog magazine
with pertinent information on "The Outer Limits", and yesterday it was the
discovery of the "Official BLADE RUNNER Souvenir Magazine." which by the
way has at least one error in it. It states that 4 replicants escaped to
earth, but that was the result, I assume, of a writer not doing his job.
Most of the written material is quoted from the people involved in
production. The writer who erred just wrote the introductions to each
section.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale    
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 23:19:14 GMT
From: ritcv!pxd3563@rutgers.edu (Patrick A. Deupree)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>I mean, why [apparently] kill off all of the series members?  Seems to me
>a very dumb way to end what was a *great* series.
>Okay.  So, maybe none of the cast *was* killed off except for Blake and
>Dayna.  Perhaps the Federation guys had their weapons on stun for some
>reason and didn't actually *kill* Vila, Soolin, and Tarrent.  So the
>question remains: when will the series be brought back?

Considering the odds they were against, wouldn't it be a smart idea to
pretend death so as to avoid really getting shot?  (I must confess, I got
this idea from _Afterlife_).  There are so many ways that they could bring
back the cast that I'm not too worried.  As for the series being brought
back, it seems that there is a good chance that it will be brought back.  I
saw Terry Nation speak at a convention in August and he was annoyed by the
last episode also.  But he was asked as to whether the series will be
brought back and he said that the idea is being tossed around.

>And it wouldn't need to be called "Blake's 7" either.  Afterall, Blake is
>dead.  Or was this a Blake clone?  I personally don't think it was but you
>never really know do you?  Did Avon shoot Blake prematurely?  He didn't
>seem to let Blake *explain* himself adequately before firing.  Perhaps he
>had heard enough and was convinced that Blake meant them more harm than
>good regardless of his explanations?

Avon did shoot Blake prematurely.  However, there had always been a
distinct rivalry between the two.  So it is highly probable that he wished
to find some fault in Blake that would "allow" him to shoot Blake.  This
was his opportunity.

>I enjoyed Slave's final words and failings.
>Still, a lousy way to end a series.  Just kill off the cast!   :-(

I personally enjoyed the dying words of Zen.  "I'm sorry.  I've failed
you."  As for a lousy way to end a series.  It sure was a lousy way to end
the series, but all in all I kind of liked the episode.  Although it was a
bit upsetting to see Blake die.  But, as has been mentioned someplaces,
Blake can be brought back from one of the two or three clones of himself
that are running around.  And the clones would be Blake before he went
through whatever it was that made him a bit crazy.

Patrick Deupree

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 11:07:12 GMT
From: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7

ccastkv@pyr.gatech.EDU (Keith Vaglienti) writes:
> Since the question has been asked...
> "Blake's 7" ... survived the death of the title character

Warning - spoiler for anyone who hasn't seen the last series.

No, it survived the disappearance of the title character. Blake actually
died, shot by Avon, in the final episode of the final series. (Final so
far, anyway.)  He was one of the few characters to be shot in that episode
and show wounds; the rest of them just fell down. Except Avon, who was last
seen with a lot of Federation troops surrounding him. As the credits
scrolled up, you heard, but didn't see, one shot followed by several. I
have an unlikely private version; Avon fires one shot and ducks, leaving
several Federation troops pointing guns at each other. When the smoke
clears, Avon, the last person left standing, goes and wakes the rest of the
heroes up. Interesting that the Federation soldiers, who previously
couldn't hit a barn door at five paces, are now so accurate :-)

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 07:41:19 PST (Friday)
From: Wahl.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Blakes 7
cc: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu

>Mueller's android was destroyed by Tarrant (who took the actually
>responsibility) because of information from ORAC that as long as the
>android was around,it's potential to dominate the galaxy was present.

Yes and no.  ORAC did seem to be saying that the android should be
destroyed, but Tarrant and Dayna were in the generator plant at the time.
And, if they had decided to destroy the android before they went to the
plant, wouldn't they have done something to keep Avon from risking his life
to put on the inhibitor?  (They don't always like him much, but they do
need him.)  If they decided latter, when was it and on what basis?  They
didn't learn anything new about the android.

Lisa  

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 16:03:04 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@rutgers.edu (Doctor Who)
Subject: Re: Blakes 7 (* SPOILER *)

One interesting note about the episode BLAKE.  According to the bounty
hunter's CO (the one Blake reported to), the Federation had not yet laid
claim to Gauda Prime (implying that there were no Federation troops on the
planet), but that they WERE expecting someone from the Federation to arrive
soon (could that name begin with an 'S'?).  Then, all of a sudden, at the
end, a bunch of FEDERATION troops arrive (convenient, wasn't it?) to shoot
everyone.  This all sounds fishy to me and I suspect that Servalan/Sleer
was there all the time and that the Federation agent that shot Dayna was
her accomplice, so every one had orders to stun them, so only Blake is
really dead (unless THAT was faked too, which I doubt) and Orac is sitting
happily in the little ground-car in the docks playing with the base's
inferior computer systems.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305	
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 05:54:51 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: The Death of Blake's 7 (SPOILERS)

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>I just saw the very last episode of Blake's 7 entitled 'Blake'.  Rather
>disappointing I might add.

Perhaps you would be less disappointed if you didn't think of it as an
ending, which I don't think it was.  More in a moment.

>I mean, why [apparently] kill off all of the series members?  Seems to me
>a very dumb way to end what was a *great* series.

Great?  Oh, never mind.

My theory is that they tried to stave off Cancellation by doing a
cliffhanger, so that B7 fans would storm the BBC and demand the rest of the
story.  (I seem to recall that season-end cliffhangers were a big thing
back in '81; Dallas is very popular in the UK.)  I imagine the
Conservatives decided (not for the first time) that Blackmail Mustn't Be
Rewarded and cancelled it anyway.  Obviously, we hadn't been told the whole
story, because that weird charade in the woods between Blake and the woman
renegade is never explained.  It seems pretty obvious to me that Blake had
some kind of gimmick that required new recruits to be fooled into thinking
they had been betrayed.  Note that Blake betrays the woman in the forest
(and murders his cohorts just to emphasize his own two-facedness to her),
but when she's next seen, she's working for Blake!  Anyway, if we accept
this theory, the deaths are explainable as either an illusion or (more
likely) the Gimmick getting out of control because Blake didn't anticipate
his former crew showing up with weapons that worked.  (The Federation
Troopers were presumably phoneys; not clear whether their weapons were
supposed to kill or stun.)  became obvious that they would never make the
rest of the story, the producers simply announed, Yes, everybody's dead,
it's too bad, but they *were* fighting against impossible odds, weren't
they?

>Okay.  So, maybe none of the cast *was* killed off except for Blake and
>Dayna.  Perhaps the Federation guys had their weapons on stun for some
>reason and didn't actually *kill* Vila, Soolin, and Tarrent.  So the
>question remains: when will the series be brought back?

Probably a couple of years.  The idea is just beginning to take hold back
in AS 1, and that's how long it'll take to get pipeline started again.

BTW, Paul Darrow sneers at the "they were just stunned" theory -- and is
careful to point out that the we never actually see Avon killed!  We do see
(or rather hear) him fire the shot that's supposed to provoke the Troopers
into gunning him down (Darrow says Avon has the Death Wish syndrome real
bad), but we don't know if they returned fire.  If he's not just promoting
himself and actually Knows Something, I'll bet the first line of the next
episode will be, "Here he is, Madam Commisioner, and I'll have you know it
cost me 5 men to take this suicidal maniac alive!"  (I know this
contradicts my theory about the "Blake" episode, but Terry Nation had
nothing to do with the cliffhanger and is said to hate it; besides,
finishing the cliffhanger might require obtaining actors who've long since
moved on).

>And it wouldn't need to be called "Blake's 7" either.  Afterall, Blake is
>dead.  Or was this a Blake clone?  I personally don't think it was but you
>never really know do you?  Did Avon shoot Blake prematurely?  He didn't
>seem to let Blake *explain* himself adequately before firing.

He did too.  "Did you betray us!"  "Yes."  "Oh."  BLLLLURT!!!

>Perhaps he had heard enough and was convinced that Blake meant them more
>harm than good regardless of his explanations?

Since Avon only stuck with Blake for selfish reasons, it's not clear to me
why he didn't kill Blake long before!

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 02:02:14 GMT
From: sarge@sting.berkeley.edu (Steven Sargent)
Subject: Re: The Death of Blake's 7 (SPOILERS)

What's going on here?  I liked the ending of Blake's 7.  The show was
getting pretty grim toward the end, with only Avon's increasing paranoid
delusion to provide interest (but, then, I thought things had gone to
kipple when Sally Knyvette left...)  It had become the moral equivalent of
"Lost in space."  Slave was no improvement on Zen, and the plots were all
"Drive around in space.  Be imprisoned by horrible monsters.  Get out with
stoopid plot twist."  Bad, bad.  I really appreciated them for having a
strong, definite ending for the show, and was flabbergasted by talk of
starting it up again.  Just let it go, kids...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 15:26:19 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

THERE MAY BE SPOILERS HERE, BUT EVEN *I'M* NOT SURE WHERE...

This is an impassioned plea to anyone who is very up to date on Blake's 7.

My hometown tv station (6,000 miles away in a far-off land) imports old
syndicated series from all over the world, and shows them at random,
usually not more than one or two seasons in total...thus, on any given day
you might watch a British series from two years ago followed by an American
series from the fifties...and that's how I caught on to Blake's 7.

Anyway, the show lasted only a couple of seasons, and ended with the death
of Gan, and I was particularly irritated to find that they weren't going to
renew it.

To anyone out there who can help, please e-mail me a brief summary of the
fates of all the original cast members, and what the new situation on the
Scorpio is...

Thanks,
amit

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 12:05:38 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Blake's 7

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>Still, a lousy way to end a series.  Just kill off the cast!   :-(

This happened at the end of each of the (4?) series.

The first series ended when the Liberator went into battle against an
overwhelming invasion fleet.

The second ended when they had just acquired orac, and there was a shot of
the Liberator blowing up.

The third ended with the crew marooned on that artificial planet, with a
life expectancy measured in hours, and the Liberator disintegrating as
Servilan makes off with it.

When each of the series was shown, no-one knew if there would be a new
series.

So far we have all been kept waiting a rather long time for a new series.
:-<

Bob

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Hodgeson (4 msgs) & Hogan (3 msgs) &
                       Ing (3 msgs) & Javna & Kadrey

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 05:21:21 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@rutgers.edu (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

eric@venus.UUCP (Eric Read) writes:
>Yes it was, but this is a good example of a very rewarding book that can
>be hard to read. [Referring to _Little, Big_ by John Crowley]

People keep saying books are hard to read that I didn't find to be so.
Besides _Little, Big_, there were a few messages a while back saying Mervyn
Peake's _Gormenghast Trilogy_ was hard to read.  I found both to be quite
engrossing, with only a few slow patches.  And there have been others I
can't recall now.

I'LL tell you what's hard to read.  Has anyone but me ever read William
Hope Hodgeson's _The Night Land_ all the way through?  Now THAT'S hard to
read, although some of the imagery is vivid enough to make it worthwhile.
And how about E. R. Eddison's _The Worm Ouroberous_ (sp?).  The
pseudo-Elizabethan prose that that book is written in is really annoying;
anyway I found it to be so.

Anyone out there have any comments on either work and its readibility?

William H. Ansley
uucp:	  ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu         
bitnet:	  ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 00:36:53 GMT
From: haste+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Nightland, Ouroboros

ansley@sunybcs.uucp (William Ansley):
>I'LL tell you what's hard to read.  Has anyone but me ever read William
>Hope Hodgeson's _The Night Land_ all the way through?  Now THAT'S hard to
>read, although some of the imagery is vivid enough to make it worthwhile.

It's not really hard to read.  The language is pseudo-archaic -- a stupid
decision on the part of the author that adds nothing to the book, but one
soon adjusts.  Don't read this one for the plot; read it for the scenery.
My main objection to the book was the ending: Deus ex machina without the
saving grace to include a god *or* a machine.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 08:27:00 GMT
From: kers@otter.hple.hp.com (Christopher Dollin)
Subject: Re: Mordant's Need (was fantasy recs)

"William Ansley at SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science" says:
>I'LL tell you what's hard to read.  Has anyone but me ever read William
>Hope Hodgeson's _The Night Land_ all the way through?  Now THAT'S hard to
>read, although some of the imagery is vivid enough to make it worthwhile.
>And how about E. R. Eddison's _The Worm Ouroberous_ (sp?).  The
>pseudo-Elizabethan prose that that book is written in is really annoying;
>anyway I found it to be so.

No, I gave up on _The Night Land_ about half-way through the second volume
(in Britain it was published in two average-sized paperbacks). I think I
managed to finish The Worm Ouroberous_ (sp?), bit I've *never* bothered to
try and read any more Eddison.

Has anyone ever come across _The Troglodytes_ by the unlikely sounding Nal
Rafcam? A completely terrible book, reads like a translation into English
by someone who's just learnt both langauages ... it's so bad, it was the
post-pub read-aloud at OUSFG in ... hm ... 1980. Had us in stitches.

[OUSFG == Oxford University Speculative Fiction Group].

Regards,
Kers

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 18:20:24 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

ansley@joey.UUCP (William Ansley) writes:
>I'LL tell you what's hard to read.  Has anyone but me ever read William
>Hope Hodgeson's _The Night Land_ all the way through?  Now THAT'S hard to
>read, although some of the imagery is vivid enough to make it worthwhile.

Yes, I read _The Night Land_ all the way (though I may have skimmed a bit).
I would have to be starving for printed matter to do it again.

Hodgson also wrote (brr) _The House on the Borderland_, reading which is a
truly weird experience.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
Concurrent Computer Corporation;
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
UUCP: ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 10:07:59 GMT
From: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Review of James Hogan's ENDGAME ENIGMA

I just finished James P. Hogan's ENDGAME ENIGMA in hardback from the
library, and want to pass on a recommendation of this one as a good read.

I can't pass on the usual book stats, the thing was due today and I only
discovered that last night, so I spent the night reading, then returned the
book this (past) afternoon when I woke up.  It seems to be a new hardback,
so the paperback may be a while.

If you are one of the types who likes an occasional hardback book, this one
is probably a good choice, because some of the line drawings in the last
1/5th of the book are a lot too detailed to come out well on the smaller
and less crisp paperback page.

The story is good, the characters are believable, and, best of all, the
science is well done and includes a pretty nifty scientific mystery which
the protagonists have to solve.

The plot is a good guys bad guys encounter between the Soviets and the US,
when both are in decline to the growing economic might of an awakened asia;
the Soviets are planning a little something special for the centennial of
the revolution.

Again, recommended.  James Hogan just gets better with each of his novels I
see; this is the best to date.  It is gritty with realism, and kept me
engrossed for seven straight hours (after which I promptly collapsed into
bed!)

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 03:09:20 GMT
From: leech@polk.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Review of James Hogan's ENDGAME ENIGMA

kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>I just finished James P. Hogan's ENDGAME ENIGMA in hardback from the
>library, and want to pass on a recommendation of this one as a good read.
>...  It seems to be a new hardback, so the paperback may be a while.

   I bought it last summer, I think it came out in July or so.

   I like the book too, but I don't think it is really SF. It's more in the
line of a spy thriller. 'The Hunt for Red October' keeps coming to mind for
some reason. And, as always for Hogan's books, don't expect any
characterization and you won't be disappointed.

Jon Leech
leech@cs.unc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 88 02:58:15 GMT
From: paulc@hplsdrb.hp.com (Paul Carroll)
Subject: Re: Review of James Hogan's ENDGAME ENIGMA

leech@polk.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) writes:
>    I like the book too, but I don't think it is really SF. It's more in
>the line of a spy thriller. 'The Hunt for Red October' keeps coming to
>mind for some reason. And, as always for Hogan's books, don't expect any
>characterization and you won't be disappointed.

   I agree about the characterization (or lack thereof), but I was
expecting a typical Hogan novel and so I wasn't disappointed.  Still, it
didn't rate up to THE PROTEUS OPERATION, but that one would be hard to
follow, anyway.

   Just as an interesting side-note, I bought PATRIOT GAMES by Tom Clancy
at the same time and when I started ENDGAME ENIGMA, I thought for a minute
that I had picked up the wrong book.  That, I feel, says something about
how well ENDGAME ENIGMA began.  Unfortunately, Hogan wasn't able to keep
the tempo up, so I had trouble keeping interested until the last few
chapters.  Anyway, the book was a fairly good read.

Paul Carroll
hplabs!hp-lsd!paulc

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 18:38:01 GMT
From: pur-ee!macintos@rutgers.edu (Thomas E Burns)
Subject: Dean Ing

   Anyone out there read anything by Dean Ing?  I read _Systemic Shock_ and
thought it was a very good book - I like the "pulp" action books.  So I
read the two other books in the series and thought them to be lacking.
Anybody else find this to be true?

Will at Purdue

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 05:28:41 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Dean Ing

I have read most of Dean Ing's stuff.  He's ok; a bit too like Pournelle or
Hogan.  But his technical and geographical details are right on.  When he
described his character entering Corvallis, Oregon (for example), said
character came down the main street, turned left, and headed around the
back way to campus.

I like a book to be real in the details I know about (or at least not trip
too many alarms); it helps me believe the rest.  R. A. MacAvoy does the
same thing in _Tea With the Black Dragon_.

Compare this to Brin's _Postman_.  From the description, I doubt that Mr.
Brin has ever been to the Willamette Valley, and certainly not Corvallis.
Too bad; I was pretty comfortable with the book until then.

Karen Black

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 18:56:21 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Re: Dean Ing

>Anyone out there read anything by Dean Ing?  I read _Systemic Shock_ and
>thought it was a very good book - I like the "pulp" action books.  So I
>read the two other books in the series and thought them to be lacking.
>Anybody else find this to be true?

Dean Ing has a number of good books available in paperback.  A partial list
follows:
   "Single Combat"
   "Wild Country"
   "Soft Targets"
   "Pulling Through"

The first two listed ("Single Combat" and "Wild Country"), are sequels to
"Systemic Shock" (read them in the order that they're listed).  "Soft
Targets" is about terrorism finally reaching inside the United States, and
"Pulling Through" is about a small group of San Francisco bay area
residents surviving the first few weeks of a major nuclear exchange.  The
back 50% of "Pulling Through" is actually a Nuc war survival primer!  Great
stuff for the terminally paranoid or for those of you with a few thousand
spare braincells just waiting to soak up some more info that you'll
probably (we hope!) never use :-).

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard
Corvallis Workstation Operation
1000 NE Circle Blvd. 
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 19:05:01 GMT
From: miket@brspyr1.brs.com (Mike Trout)
Subject: _The_Best_of_Science_Fiction_TV_

I recently received a great book for a birthday present:
_The_Best_of_Science_Fiction_TV, by John Javna (1987, Harmony Books, New
York).

My apologies if this book has been mentioned in these groups before, but I
highly recommend it.  I'm not a real sf fanatic, but this book entertained
and fascinated me.  There's lots of interesting info and photos from great
shows like "The Twilight Zone", "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and
"Quark"; bombs like "Space: 1999", "Lost in Space", and "Voyage to the
Bottom of the Sea"; and cult favorites like "The Invisible Man", "Fireball
XL-5", and "UFO".  I was especially pleased to see short write-ups on "Men
Into Space" and "Rocky Jones: Space Ranger", two of the very earliest TV
shows I can remember.  I was quite amazed to read the story of "Space
Patrol", a show slightly before my time.  "Space Patrol" apparently was one
of the most popular TV shows of all time, yet is little known today.  This
book has me quite interested in the story of "Space Patrol"--does anybody
remember this show, or is it available on video?

The book is a trade paperback, and should be available in most
Buchenwald-type bookstores (oops, I guess that should be Walden Books).  If
you're at all interested in old TV or sf TV, you'll enjoy it.

Michael Trout
BRS Information Technologies
1200 Rt. 7
Latham, N.Y. 12110
(518) 783-1161
miket@brspyr1
UUCP:brspyr1!miket

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 05:29:49 GMT
From: flatline!erict@rutgers.edu (eric townsend)
Subject: _Metrophage_ by Richard Kadrey, a review, no spoilers, ~long.

Okedoke, I knocked _Metrophage_ off in a day and a half between classes, so
this should be pretty complete as it's fresh on my mind.

First off, some comments about Richard Kadrey.  I heard/saw him speak and
read at Armadillocon 87 in Austin, Tx.  At the time, I was very impressed.
Kadrey's a former resident of Houston, now living somewhere in Ca.  He
looks and acts like people I hang out with: surfer/neo-punk haircut,
earrings, hardcore/thrash/punk/tough clothes, but reads William S.
Burroughs and radiates an intense intrest in tech/pol/philo/everything.

So anyway, I listen to him on a panel that headlined the likes of Bruce
Sterling and Lew ("The Whiner") Shiner.  "So he gets on neat panels at
cons," I thought, "but who the hell is this guy that looks like he should
be skating with me in downtown Houston about 3 am?"  Well, I gave in and
went to his reading.  Wow.  The feeling I got was a combination of those I
had when I first read _Naked_Lunch_ and _Neuromancer_.  "This guy's tough,"
I remember thinking, "then again, these are just some short descriptive
stories that rag on pols..."  After he finished reading, he or Shiner The
Whiner mentioned Kadrey's forthcoming book, _Metrophage_.

Fast forward to the other day when I found a copy of _Metrophage_ in the
bookstore.  I sped-read to finish _Infernal_Devices_ so I could start
_Metro_.

Wow. Edited by Terry Carr. Intro by Rudy Rucker.  He still keeps good
company.  He also includes thanks to Brian Eno, Robert Fripp, Throbbing
Gristle and Tangerine Dream "who supplied the soundtrack."  Then an opening
quote from a song by Tom Waits.  Ok, so he knows a lot of esoteric
buzz-word bandnames..  (There's a good bio of Kadrey by Rucker that goes
into Kadre's artistic background, including his interests in surrealism and
dadism.)

Ok, Ok, I'll get on with the book review...

_Metrophage_, even though it borrows from the soon-to-be-overused theme of
central-character-is-a-smuggler-'1 percenter'-run-afoul-of
huge-organizations, is surprisingly fresh and interesting.  Kadrey writes
with a style that reflects a knowledge of street life, drugs, W.S.
Burroughs-genre-literature and a keen sense of political/social philosophy.

There are some great lines and allusions in this book -- from little things
to show off his intellegence/esoteric-ness (a band named 'Taking Tiger
Mountain') to some good anarchist theory.

Our 'hero' is "...Johnny Qabbala, drug dealer, ex-Committee for Public
Health bounty hunter, and self confessed loser...".  How can you not like
him?  Johnny's well thought out and quite believable even though he's from
an almost overused stereotype.  He has faults, skills, and that real sense
of no-direction that I think everybody must experience at times.  His only
desire seems to be to live again with his two girlfrieds Sumimasen and Ice
and to not do very much other than exist.  Well, we all know what happens
to down-on-their luck drug dealers in the near-cyberpunk-future who just
want to be left alone, right?
 
Now the hard part.  How do I review the book w/o giving away anything?

_Metrophage_ is about power and politics seen from the view of someone that
has a great dislike for anything remotely resembling any sort of political
goings on.  Johnny seems almost uncapable of understanding politics on any
other level than 'it sucks'.  Ice, on the other hand, is getting involved
in nation-(world?)-wide revolution, while Sumi just exists...  It's a book
about politics, love, people and being insignifigant.

It's also a showcase for Kadrey's ability to write.  From hearing him speak
and reading _Metrophage_ I get the feeling that Kadrey understands
surrealism on a level far above that of mere mortals.  He can write what
others can only hope to see put on canvas by their own shaky, skillless
hands.  I have the feeling that Kadrey could write about high school
basketball and make it almost this interesting.

Buy and read this book.  In my opinion, it's easily in the top %2 of
experimental science fiction, enjoying the company of Gibson and Jeter.
This is fiction that someone *not* into science fiction could still enjoy
- -- a quality that very little science fiction has, or ever will have.

I have this eery feeling that somewhere out there, Richard Kadrey will soon
read this and either laugh at me or send me some sort of instant-death
email-bomb.

(In case Kadrey's out there... Remember Austin, Tx? The black-leather
jacketed skater sitting in the front row at your reading and your panel
upset because you picked on Houston? My friends and I heckled Sterling and
Shiner whenever they stopped talking long enough to make it possible... I
didn't think you would remember...  harf.)

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Texas 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:

		 Books - King (2 msgs) & Kurtz (3 msgs) &
                         LeGuin (6 msgs) & Lem & 
                         Norton (3 msgs) & Stapledon


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 14:37:42 GMT
From: homxc!sdave@rutgers.edu (David Blakeley)
Subject: Re: THE TOMMYKNOCKERS

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>     THE TOMMYKNOCKERS is full of good ideas--it's just a pity that they
>aren't fresher, or weren't buried by the volume of prose.  ...  And there
>are bits and pieces from CARRIE, THE FURY, and several of King's earlier
>works.  In general, I don't object to authors tying their works together,
>but in this novel King mentions has from he Dead Zone, the movie THE
>SHINING, and himself as a Bangor, Maine horror author all sharing the same
>level of reality.  I don't know about you, but I find this very jarring.

I agree that this book fell apart somewhat under its own weight. (I say
that as a true SK fan for 15 years.) Since you didn't read IT, you missed
the references to that work in THE TOMMYKNOCKERS as well.  SK has done this
before, though. CUJO also contained references to TDZ, and the killer cop
from TDZ has been referred to in other SK books and short stories. (As an
aside, those who have read IT may have noticed that some of the action in
TOMMYKNOCKERS takes place in Derry, although SK clearly sets the chronology
later in TOMMYKNOCKERS.) Maybe SK has been reading later R.A. Heinlein
works?

By the way... I still recommend IT highly. Definitely in my personal SK top
three (with THE STAND and THE SHINING).

David Blakeley
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Red Hill
...!{ihnp4,allegra}!homxc!sdave

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 88 02:42:37 GMT
From: paulc@hplsdrb.hp.com (Paul Carroll)
Subject: Re: THE TOMMYKNOCKERS

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>    If you're a fast reader, you might find this book worth the time.  If
>you're a Stephen King fan, you'll read it anyway.  I used to be a King
>fan, but haven't read any of his latest books--THE TALISMAN, IT,
>MISERY--because, again, they're just too long.

While King's books are not quite SF, I felt I had to respond about his
next-to-last book, MISERY.  This was a book that was hard to put down,
unlike IT and TOMMYKNOCKERS.  While MISERY is not a typical horror novel,
in terms of supernatural matters, it is quite a study in how to scare the
pants off someone.  Also, it isn't that big a book (around 300 pages if I
remember right) and King keeps the story moving the entire time.  Of all
his books, I rate MISERY as his best so far.  IT, the book, wasn't bad but
also seemed to be quite voluminous for the topic.  As for THE TALISMAN, I
couldn't hack it past a few chapters.  I'm sorry, but I wasn't looking for
a Fantasy-type Horror novel from King.  As mentioned, I noticed references
in TOMMYKNOCKERS to this and most of his other novels and I was somewhat
put off by it.  I just hope King doesn't keep trying to push old,
unpublished works on us and keeps writing books like MISERY.

Paul Carroll
hplabs!hp-lsd!paulc

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 05:13:00 GMT
From: rce229@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Katherine Kurtz books

Does anyone know what (and when) is upcoming from Katherine Kurtz, in the
Deryni universe or otherwise?

Rob Elliott

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 88 04:40:49 GMT
From: sq!bms@rutgers.edu (bms)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books

rce229@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
>Does anyone know what (and when) is upcoming from Katherine Kurtz, in the
>Deryni universe or otherwise?

I just realized the significance of the name `Kurtz' on the cover of a
recent book I've reshelved at least a dozen times...  Have you seen THE
CHRONICLES OF LEHR (I *think* that's the title; at any rate, I'm sure of
the word LEHR)?  It's been available in Toronto bookstores for at least a
couple of weeks now.  Looks interesting, but I haven't had the time or
money to approach new books lately.

becky

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 14:26:09 GMT
From: jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>you seen THE CHRONICLES OF LEHR (I *think* that's the title;

Actually its THE LEGACY OF LEHR and I thought it was okay.  I'm still
hoping for another Deryni book soon, I want Kelson to find Camber, but I
guess I will have to wait a while longer for that one.  This one is a
murder mystery on a space ship where the prime suspects are these strange
blue cats (Lehr cats, named for some scientist who studied them some years
back).  Like I said before, I thought it was okay, but I still like most of
the Deryni stuff better.

Jim Clausing
CIS Department			
Ohio State University		
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 07:47:39 GMT
From: hutch@hammer.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

I0060303@dbstu1.BITNET writes:
>In a recent posting (methinks issue #34) someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin
>'Always Coming Home'. I'd like to hear some opinions about that book, as
>i'm reading it right now and haven't got the faintest idea yet (having
>read one quarter of it) what the book is about and why she wrote it.  If
>the discussion of the book has already raged thru the keyboards of this
>net, will someone please send me some excerpts of it?  klaus.

I don't know if there's been discussion, but I can tell you what the book
and the tape "are about" as I see them.  The stories are about people.

Part of it is the almost romantic idea of a "primitive" lifestyle.  Another
part seems to be the attraction, especially from within a very lonely and
insular society, of a different society where there is a more accepting
"extended family".

LeGuin created the future-earth world of _Always_Coming_Home_ over the
course of at least 10 years.  It has utopic elements, it has dystopic
elements, there are cultural frameworks to hang a story on.  I saw a
similarity to some anthropological studies of low-technology societies
(although she includes some higher technology in medicine at least) which
made it seem almosst tongue-in-cheek.  Science fiction about one of the
softer sciences.

The real reason for creating any story (at least, if you're as
sophisticated as LeGuin) is to show the readers something of themselves by
showing them something different, and at the same time to take them out of
their own heads and show them a world from a different perspective.  _ACH_
certainly shows me a different world.  The format of an anthropological
study made it possible for other artists, musicians, and even sculptors to
participate in the creation of that world.  Too bad you can't include
sculpture and pottery in a book-tape package.

There's a risk in writing a book with such an experimental format, not the
least the chance that the story gets lost, or that it might become (uh oh)
boring.  _ACH_ doesn't quite do that but it gets pretty dry and
inaccessible.  It can take work to read.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 16:30:51 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Ursula K. LeGuin (Always Coming Home)

hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
> I don't know if there's been discussion, but I can tell you what the book
> and the tape "are about" as I see them.  The stories are about people.
>
> Part of it is the almost romantic idea of a "primitive" lifestyle.
> Another part seems to be the attraction, especially from within a very
> lonely and insular society, of a different society where there is a more
> accepting "extended family".

Always Coming Home is also about a place (the Napa aka Na Valley).  In the
book, people and places are much less separable than now.  It made me very
homesick when I read it here in New York (I grew up in California, and the
descriptions of the land were quite recognizable).

David Eppstein
Columbia U. Computer Science
eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 88 15:19 EST
From: David Kelman <V363HKM4@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Ursula LeGuin
 
>In a recent posting (methinks issue #34) someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin
>'Always Coming Home'. I'd like to hear some opinions about that book, as
>i'm reading it right now and haven't got the faintest idea yet (having
>read one quarter of it) what the book is about and why she wrote it.
 
   I haven't read comments on the board either, but I have read the book.
The book strikes me as being typical Le Guin, in that it is oriented toward
the social sciences than the natural sciences.  The main story is broken up
into three parts, with a segment of backround material between each
segment.  LeGuin has essentially developed a fictional post-holocaust
tribal society in great detail.  She seems to be using many features of
Native American culture as a base, and building up from there.  The
backround segments contain an assortment of material, including history,
poetry and tribal myths.  Not being one for poetry, I skipped much of that.
Overall I found the book well worth reading.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 19:19:40 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Ursula K. LeGuin

> there are cultural frameworks to hang a story on.  I saw a similarity to
> some anthropological studies of low-technology societies (although she
> includes some higher technology in medicine at least) which made it seem
> almosst tongue-in-cheek.  Science fiction about one of the softer
> sciences.

The similarity to Anthropological studies is not surprising considering her
father is one of the "BIG" names Cultural Anthropology.  I have found her
father's influence in much of her work (I read bunches of her father's
writings as I majored in Anthropology in college).  This is one of the
reasons that many of the "techier":^) readers miss what her stories are
about.

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 06:52:34 GMT
From: killer!elg@rutgers.edu (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: LeGuin and "Always Coming Home"

ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA (LT Sheri Smith USN) says:
> decided it was an anthropological study of a people, including culture,,
> folklore, history, secret societies, religion, art, food procurement,
> attire, artisanship, etcetera.  LeGuin was exhaustive in creating an
> entire possible future, and I found the book fascinating, once I looked
> at it from the viewpoint of a textbook vice a novel.

Now, I'm not anti-anthropology (heck, I read National Geographic in the
doctor's office :-). But I bought the book expecting a novel. I didn't get
one -- ACH is a novella, a couple of short stories, and lots of poems,
cultural description and music.

It makes sense, when you consider that LeGuin's father was an
anthropologist, but still, I just didn't have the time or inclination to
plow through an anthropology book over 500 pages long, much less one about
an imaginary culture.

I got the feeling, when I was reading the book, that I was really looking
at the "background" notebook that an author makes about his/her imaginary
"universe". I just wish that LeGuin had written the novel that the notebook
was "background" for, instead of just publishing the "notebook."

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509      
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 01:13:16 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: LeGuin and "Always Coming Home"

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>I got the feeling, when I was reading the book, that I was really looking
>at the "background" notebook that an author makes about his/her imaginary
>"universe". I just wish that LeGuin had written the novel that the
>notebook was "background" for, instead of just publishing the "notebook."

ALWAYS COMING HOME was never intended to be a novel, nor was it ever
intended to be "background" for anything else.  LeGuin has made it quite
clear, in interviews and in her speaking appearances, that ACH was always
supposed to be an anthropological treatise.  I found it quite refreshing to
see something like that done with such clarity and precision.  Guess that's
what comes from being a big-shot anthropologist's daughter :-)

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren 
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 88 04:27:40 GMT
From: swatsun!jimmosk@rutgers.edu (Jim Moskowitz)
Subject: A question for Lemmings

I remember reading, on this very net, about a new book by Stanislaw Lem
published around a year ago.  However, I've never seen it in stores or
mentioned in catalogs.  Could someone mail me information about it, what
it's about, and where I might find it?

That's nice of you!

Jim Moskowitz
...!liberty!swatsun!jimmosk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 15:35:46 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com 
Subject: Witch World Novels

Could someone list all the books in Norton's Witch World settings?

Many Thanks,

dredick@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 06:28:03 GMT
From: wenn@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Witch World Novels

Ah, standard question #2957.  Digging through my archives, I find I wrote
(in July 17, 1987):

Witch World books have been published by many different companies (Ace,
DAW, Del Rey, Tor, among others), so just looking at the "other Witch World
books" inside the front cover never gives you a complete list.  As far as I
know (as owner of ~90 Andre Norton books, plus several reference books),
this is a complete list of Witch World books:

Estcarp
   Witch World [1963]
   Web of the Witch World [1964]
   Three Against the Witch World [1965]
   Warlock of the Witch World [1967]
   Sorceress of the Witch World [1968]
   The Trey of Swords [1977]
   'Ware Hawk [1983]
   Gate of the Cat [1987]
High Halleck
   The Year of the Unicorn [1965]
   The Crystal Gryphon [1972]
   Spell of the Witch World [1972] (Story Collection)
   The Jargoon Pard [1974]
   Zarsthor's Bane [1978]
   Horn Crown [1981]
   The Gryphon in Glory [1981]
   Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] (with A. C. Crispin)
Both Estcarp & High Halleck stories
   Lore of the Witch World [1980] (Story Collection)
   Tales of the Witch World [1987] (Anthology edited by Andre Norton)

The stories either take place in Estcarp or in High Halleck.  The two story
cycles are essentially independent.  Estcarp is a matriarchal society under
the rigid control of the Witches (women with magic).  The Estcarp books
should be read in chronological order, since each book progresses from the
actions of the previous books (this is less true of "'Ware Hawk" & "Gate of
the Cat").

High Halleck is a newly colonized land that was mysteriously empty when the
colonists arrived.  There still exists, however, places and objects of
power left from the old inhabitants; places helpful, neutral or harmful to
humankind.  Most of the stories occur when High Halleck is invaded by
another continent (but "The Horn Crown" covers the colonization of the High
Halleck).  The books are essentially independent with a few exceptions
("The Year of the Unicorn -> The Jargoon Pard -> The Crystal Gryphon -> The
Gryphon in Glory -> Gryphon's Eyrie").

Witch World is one of my all time favorite series, but then I really like
Andre Norton.  The best places to start would be "Witch World" for Estcarp,
and "The Horn Crown" for High Halleck.  Both are good introductions to the
series.  If you like these, by all means read the entire series.

John

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 15:06:20 GMT
From: wenn@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Witch World Novels

nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
[Stuff Deleted]
>High Sorcery
>Sea Siege
[More Stuff Deleted]

A minor point.  _Seas Siege_ is not a Witch World novel.  It's near future
SF about ecological catastrophe.  _High Sorcery_ is a short story
collection that contains one 10 page Witch World story ("Ully the Piper")
that isn't in any of the pure Witch World collections.  It's a good story
too.  I had forgotten about it in my earlier listing.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 88 20:02:08 EST
From: jw@math.mit.edu
Subject: Southern Hemisphere

"Last and First Men" by Olaf Stapledon has an extended section describing a
post-holocaust civilisation which arises in Patagonia, which is in Earth's
southern hemisphere.

"On the Beach" is of course entirely set in the southern hemisphere, and
for the same reason: that the northern hemisphere had wiped itself out. The
main powers on earth are Australia, Brazil, Argentina and South Africa. It
is not entirely free of the charge of hemispherism, because of course Nevil
Shute was Australian!

It is interesting to note that Stapledon's book was written well before the
development of atomics, but he did foresee the rise of weapons of mass
destruction, and his transfer of civilisation to the southern hemisphere in
the distant (one million years After Present?) future is an interesting
parallel with Shute's more contemporary work.

Julian West
MIT mathematics

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Lewis (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 88 14:53:35 PST
From: uazchem!dolata@arizona.edu (Dolata)
Subject: C.S. Lewis

> The only criticism of C.S. Lewis that I would make is that he never quite
> understood the difference between being and Oxford don and being a
> Christian. :-)

Having taught at Oxford, I would say that in the earlier parts of this
century the former would have required a very large degree of the latter.
At the very least, one would certainly have had to pay lip service to
Christianity.  Every meal at high table is proceeded by a prayer, Sunday
service was required then, and the very motto is Dominus Illuminatio Mea.
While it's not done anymore, don't forget that Oxford has a lovely history
of burning heretics (e.g. see the cobblestone cross on the Broad Street).

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 19:29:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

>I disagree completely; they are very much part of the "Narnia" story.  The
>only one which might be excused from that is HORSE; all the other books
>are connected by the thread of the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve who
>come to aid Narnia in her various dark times, and all of whom know each
>other (through several different sorts of relationships).  Indeed, BATTLE
>has (for me) the single most poignant moment of the series, when we
>discover that Susan P. has "fallen away" from her faith with Narnia.

I confess that, for me, Susan's falling away was very unconvincing.  It was
unforeshadowed, and was only told in third person, after the fact.  He did
not make it at all clear to me why someone who'd had experiences in Narnia
as she did (indeed, living well into adulthood) could then think it was all
an idle childish daydream.  My impression when I read it was that Lewis
wanted to have seven friends of Narnia at the end, and so dumped Susan as
the least developed (or maybe least favorite) of those friends.  I know
that the lesson to be learned from such a falling away is important, but I
wish Lewis could have developed that better.

Some other comments on Narnia:

I also recommend reading the series in the order they were written.  Lewis'
style in children's writing improves with practice.

My favorite story in the group, as a story, is "Dawn Treader".  Lewis does
a marvelous job of building up the level of the fantastic on the journey:
the first adventure is with mundane slave-traders, and things build up to
the arrival at the edge of world, where the dome of the sky touches the
disk of the earth.  Normally I would find that impossible to believe in,
but Lewis somehow pulls it off.  Also, there are some wonderfully imagined
scenes: the idea of the island where dreams come true was chilling as
anything I've read; and last island where the flock of singing birds flies
out daily to meet the aged star stirs things in my imagination which I
can't describe well.  After "Dawn Treader", I guess my favorite is "The
Silver Chair".  My least favorite was "Prince Caspian".

"The Last Battle" is an anomaly--the first half is (deliberately) the most
depressing part of the series, but I agree that the latter portion is the
most moving.  With a story Lewis made me feel--better than any discourse
did-- that the natural state for which humanity was created was one
boundless joy.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 17:59:29 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>I confess that, for me, Susan's falling away was very unconvincing.  It
>was unforeshadowed, and was only told in third person, after the fact.

I wouldn't say there were no signs of her vulnerability.  Remember that she
was the last of the children to see Aslan in Prince_Caspian.  Also, in
A_Horse_and_his_Boy we learn that she considered marrying Rabadash.

>He did not make it at all clear to me why someone who'd had experiences in
>Narnia as she did (indeed, living well into adulthood) could then think it
>was all an idle childish daydream.

I think one of his points is that people often deny spiritual realities
which conflict with their "adult" world-views.  A closely related incident
was the refusal of the dwarves in The_Last_Battle to realize that they were
no longer in a dark barn but in the sunlight.

>My impression when I read it was that Lewis wanted to have seven friends
>of Narnia at the end, and so dumped Susan as the least developed (or maybe
>least favorite) of those friends.

She does seem to be his least developed, least favorite character.  This is
another reason why I say that her lapse is not entirely unforeshadowed.
Think how much more heartbreaking it would be if Lucy or Edmund or Peter
fell away.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 00:12:26 GMT
From: lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Brandoch Daha)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>I confess that, for me, Susan's falling away was very unconvincing.  It
>was unforeshadowed, and was only told in third person, after the fact.  He
>did not make it at all clear to me why someone who'd had experiences in
>Narnia as she did (indeed, living well into adulthood) could then think it
>was all an idle childish daydream.  My impression when I read it was that
>Lewis wanted to have seven friends of Narnia at the end, and so dumped
>Susan as the least developed (or maybe least favorite) of those friends.
>I know that the lesson to be learned from such a falling away is
>important, but I wish Lewis could have developed that better.  My least
>favorite was "Prince Caspian".

Unforeshadowed?  I think not.  Remember in "Prince Caspian," when Lucy sees
Aslan, and no one else does?  Susan spends her time doubting, indeed
throughout the book, in my eyes, almost everything that goes on.  It was
reasonably clear to me, although I could have been reading things in, that
even by the time of the second book, Susan was almost too old.  When, at
the end of "Prince Caspian" Aslan tells Peter and Susan that they won't be
back, Peter is sorrowful and understanding, Edmund and Lucy are sorry for
them, but realize that this means that they will probably be back, while
Susan just seems tired of it all.  Oh well.

------------------------------

Date: Fri 29 Jan 88 09:55:04-PST
From: Mary Holstege <HOLSTEGE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: CS Lewis
  
I read Lewis' "space trilogy" for a class entitled Biblical Literature.  It
was, alas, required reading.  These books are simply dreadful -- over-laden
with tiresome and heavy-handed religious propoganda, a pale excuse for a
plot, and laughably simplistic linguistics.  I'll grant you some of the
description is lovely, but to even consider comparing it with the vastly
superior Tolkien is a grave insult to Tolkien.  Allegory always leaves a
sickly taste in my mouth, particularly when it is as overdone as Lewis' is
in these books.  Aaack! Pthuui!  I would never recommend anyone read these
for entertainment, only for education in some basic works of fantasy.  And
so that they might better appreciate the wonderful works of fantasy that
other people wrote.

Mary
Holstege@SUSHI.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 01:48:19 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

HOLSTEGE@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU (Mary Holstege) writes:
>I read Lewis' "space trilogy" for a class entitled Biblical Literature.
>It was, alas, required reading.  These books are simply dreadful --
>over-laden with tiresome and heavy-handed religious propoganda, a pale
>excuse for a plot, and laughably simplistic linguistics.

These books are not "simply" dreadful.  If they are dreadful at all, they
are so in some compound/complex sense that enables many readers, myself
included, to derive great pleasure from them.  Of the three above
elaborations of the adjective "dreadful," only the accusation of
heavy-handed religious propaganda seems just to me.  Philology is not a
major theme of the trilogy; it occupies perhaps two pages.  The books are
not fast-paced, but the plot is well-suited to the peculiar mode of
strangeness which permeates the trilogy.

>I'll grant you some of the description is lovely, but to even consider
>comparing it with the vastly superior Tolkien is a grave insult to
>Tolkien.

Yes, Lewis has a real gift for vivid visual imagery.  I am inclined to
agree that The Lord of the Rings is greater than the space trilogy, but the
comparison is quite apt.  The two works are coeval, the fruit of an
agreement between Lewis and Tolkien that they should each write a book, one
about space travel and one about time travel.

>Allegory always leaves a sickly taste in my mouth, particularly when it is
>as overdone as Lewis' is in these books.  Aaack! Pthuui!

Although Lewis is not averse to employing allegory, I don't see that he
does so in these books.  In allegory, one thing stands for another.  In the
space trilogy Maleldil is God, not a symbol, just another name for the same
thing.  And likewise with the other equations, Son of Maleldil = Christ,
Ouroborinda = Satan, etc.  As a non-Christian, I can sympathize with a
dislike for Christian themes in literature, but this should not be confused
with a dislike of allegory.

>I would never recommend anyone read these for entertainment, only for
>education in some basic works of fantasy.  And so that they might better
>appreciate the wonderful works of fanstasy that other people wrote.

And I recommend these works strongly to people with a taste for fantasy.
Not wholeheartedly, as some people are squeamish about Christianity, but
strongly.  Lewis' Mars, his Venus, absurd though they are from a scientific
point of view, are compelling and unforgettable.  And his scenes on Earth,
his portraits of English university life, bear comparison to "Lucky Jim."

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 31 January 1988 00:46:32 CST
From:   <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  C.S. Lewis, _Till We Have Faces_

Among the postings recommending novels by C. S. Lewis, _Till We Have Faces_
was mentioned, but it deserves to be singled out.  TWHF is an excellent
work by C. S. Lewis that isn't Christian allegory.  If I remember right,
it's a re-telling of a story from Greek mythology.  TWHF generates a subtle
sensation of otherness which I particularly enjoy (only _The Fifth Head of
Cerberus_ by Gene Wolfe comes to mind as comparable).  It's a story that,
though not hard to read, for some reason, is hard to remember, perhaps
because of the way it crosses up your expectations.  I've read it three
times in the past 13 years, and I'll be reading it again soon.

Paul R. Pudaite

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 20:03:14 GMT
From: aucs!850747c@rutgers.edu (Vitamin)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>I confess that, for me, Susan's falling away was very unconvincing.  It
>was unforeshadowed, and was only told in third person, after the fact.  He
>did not make it at all clear to me why someone who'd had experiences in
>Narnia as she did (indeed, living well into adulthood) could then think it
>was all an idle childish daydream.  My impression when I read it was that
>Lewis wanted to have seven friends of Narnia at the end, and so dumped
>Susan as the least developed (or maybe least favorite) of those friends.
>I know that the lesson to be learned from such a falling away is
>important, but I wish Lewis could have developed that better.

I might point out that Susan's falling away was not _totally_
unforeshadowed.  In "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", she was the
only one of the group afraid to stay in Narnia to try rescue Faun Tumnus,
and the only one of the group afraid to go past the lamp post at the end of
the book because it would quite possibly result in another big change in
their life. In "Prince Caspian", because she was scared, she didn't want to
go into the Treasure Room they found in the abandoned castle, she missed a
wild bear about to attack her companions, she voted not to go into the dark
woods, and pretended not to believe Lucy when she (Lucy) saw Aslan.  In
"The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", she went to America because she really
wasn't very good at study and 'would get a good deal more out of it than
the younger children', building at an alreadly-hinted at image of
worldliness and shallowness.  In "The Horse and His Boy", she was silly
enough to believe Rabadash's faked humbleness, and nearly lost all courage
when Tumnus alerted them of their danger in Tashbaan.  In "The Last Battle"
we see what a constant series of small faults can culminate in.  This is in
keeping with Lewis' belief that small moral transgressions can insidiously
culminate and destroy a person's soul.

>"The Last Battle" is an anomaly--the first half is (deliberately) the most
>depressing part of the series, but I agree that the latter portion is the
>most moving.  With a story Lewis made me feel--better than any discourse
>did-- that the natural state for which humanity was created was one
>boundless joy.

Well put.  There were some good moments in "The Magician's Nephew" as well
- - like in the Wood Between Worlds with Aslan, just before they are sent
back.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 17:26:54 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: CS Lewis -- I disagree with Mary *AND* Michael

Mary Holstege writes:
>These books are simply dreadful -- over-laden with tiresome and
>heavy-handed religious propoganda, a pale excuse for a plot, and laughably
>simplistic linguistics.

Michael Larsen writes:
>Philology is not a major theme of the trilogy; it occupies perhaps two
>pages.

Beg pardon: Lewis made a great deal of the linguistics in SILENT PLANET.
And, despite their being such good friends, Tolkien wrote some very
disparaging things regarding Lewis's linguistics in the Trilogy -- see
LETTERS OF J.R.R.  TOLKIEN, edited by Humphrey Carpenter.  (Remember,
Tolkien was a philologist; Lewis was not.)

Michael writes:
>The two works are coeval, the fruit of an agreement between Lewis and
>Tolkien that they should each write a book, one about space travel and one
>about time travel.

Wrong, wrong, wrong!  A common myth, but completely inaccurate.  In fact,
Lewis and Tolkien *did* make such an agreement -- though what they actually
agreed was that Lewis should write about "space" and Tolkien about "time;"
"travel was not mentioned.  Lewis fulfilled his end of the bargain with the
"Space Trilogy;" Tolkien set out to write a novel called THE LOST ROAD, in
which a philologist and his son travelled back to Atlantis, whose
inhabitants called it "Numenor."

Tolkien being Tolkien, the book was never written.  Two chapters and a fair
amount of outline material *were* written, and have been published as THE
HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH VOLUME 5: THE LOST ROAD, along with some "First
Age" material from the same period of Tolkien's life.  For further details,
I suggest this volume.

Mary writes:
>Allegory always leaves a sickly taste in my mouth, particularly when it is
>as overdone as Lewis' is in these books.  Aaack! Pthuui!

A matter of taste.  Some of us *like* allegory, religious, political, or
other.  But Michael's right in observing that the "Space Trilogy" is *not*
allegorical; use of symbolism to convey religious themes is not equal to
allegory.  (The Narnia books, now: THERE's allegory for you.)  Allegory is
"a literary...device in which each literal character, object, and event
represents a symbol illustrating an idea or moral or religious principle."
That is to say, allegory requires a strict one-to-one relationship between
literal-things-in-story and things-symbolized.  No such relationship
between the characters, objects, and events in the "Space Trilogy" can be
drawn without extreme strain on any given system.

Mary writes:
>I would never recommend anyone read these for entertainment, only for
>education in some basic works of fantasy.  And so that they might better
>appreciate the wonderful works of fanstasy that other people wrote.

Uh.  If they're as bad as you think, why do you regard them as "basic"
works of fantasy?  And how would reading something bad make one better able
to appreciate other, better works?  This seems a little muddled.

Cheers, all.

Dan'l

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Lewis (11 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 14:22:28 GMT
From: polyslo!jmckerna@rutgers.edu (John L McKernan)
Subject: CS Lewis

I really don't think it's reasonable to criticize C.S.Lewis's _Chronicles
Of Narnia_ as being overly religious, although I've seen that on the net a
number of times. The books are very far from being religious tracts, and
don't involve any specific religion at all. None of the books is overtly
religious, with the possible exception of the last book in the series. In
fact, since the books are full of magic and talking animals, most
fundamentalists would probably want them banned.

I have heard that Lewis was a deeply religious man, and it is possible to
find reflections of that in the books. But that does not mean that the _The
Chronicles_ are religious books. The characters and events in the books
reflect some of Lewis's personal feelings and values, which is of course
true for most authors and their literary works. To say that it is wrong for
a book to reflect a few christian values is tantamount to claiming that a
religious person can't be a good author.

Specifically someone could claim that Aslan represents some sort of
christian deity. This has hardly a leg to stand on, Aslan is simply a very
good and powerful character in the story. He has no angles, nobody prays to
him (at the most it is considered unlucky to say bad things about him), and
he's not even a human being, he's an animal. His personality is nothing
short of playful at times, and people ride around on his back. As an
another example, in _The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe_ somebody dies
to save the life of another character who has been treacherous (I hope the
reference is clear, I'm trying to avoid a spoiler). This particular scene
fits right into the story and is really just an adult character refusing to
hand over a wayward child to be executed.  The scene does superficially
resemble a crucifixion, but the sins of the world are not redeemed and no
god is involved, only magic. These two examples are among the few that
could be misconstrued as religious, the large majority of all of the books
have nothing remotely to do with religion.

The claims that the books are poorly plotted and have "simplistic
linguistics" (whatever that means) are also wrong. The books were written
for children and their plots have a bit less overt depth and complexity
than adult novels. They are still beautifully told high fantasy, with my
personal favorites being _The Voyage Of The Dawntreader(?)_ and _The Silver
Chair_. The books were begun in the forties when high fantasy was very
rare, but even by todays standards they contain much that is original. The
English in the books is a sort of simplified proper British. It is unique,
simple and very easy to read (remember the children?); and it adds much to
the simple beauty of the books.

_The Chronicles Of Narnia_ are classics (whatever Mary is talking about
when she says "basic works of fantasy"), and are among the few children's
books which reward even a discerning adult. The roots of the fantasy genre
are in these books as well as _The Lord Of The Rings_ and a few other
works. Finally, I would tell an adult who who wants to read these books not
to look for something like Gene Wolf's _The Book Of The New Sun_. Instead
you must bring the child in your heart to these books. I pity someone who
can no longer find that in themselves.

John L. McKernan.
Student
Computer Science  
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 04:34:11 GMT
From: cgw@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gray Watson)
Subject: Re: Support for CS Lewis

A quick note from a CS Lewis supporter:

   I have read and plan to read the Narnia Series every year.  I see them
not as religious manuscipts but as the great pieces of fantasy they are.  I
am not particularly enthusiastic of fantasy in general (being a Clarke,
Asimov and Norton fan) but I find the Narnia books a lot of fun to read.

   For those who haven't read this delightful series because of some of the
messages posted on this bboard take heed:

   If you look at every book for a meaning, purpose or hidden theme read
   Heinlein, but if you read for the sheer pleasure then this series for
   you.

Enjoy...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 00:54:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, _Till We Have Faces_

Thanks to Chris (alias 850747c@aucs.UUCP) for his response to my
dissatisfaction with Susan's falling away in Lewis' "The Last Battle".
There was one other scene which bothered me, which I'd be interested to
reactions to.

** Spoiler warning **

If I recall correctly, it happened after the end of Narnia and the
judgement of its inhabitants.  The characters find a group of dwarves (who
had opposed the protagonists) still inside the stable.  At least they think
they are; everyone else sees them sitting in an open field.  Aslan
demonstrates that no matter what he does, these dwarves interpret it
according their imagined scenario.  This would have worked very well at any
other point in the series, during the mortal existence of Narnia and its
inhabitants.  But after the final judgement Aslan should easily be able to
use his divine power to pierce through their self-deceipt and confront them
with the truth, as he had for all the others during the judgement scene.
This also seems to leave the dwarves in some state of limbo, to spend
eternity in their imagined stable, while everyone else has gone on to a
more definite destiny.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 00:57:19 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

850747c@aucs.UUCP writes:
>I might point out that Susan's falling away was not _totally_
>unforeshadowed....[many examples]
>This is in keeping with Lewis' belief that small moral transgressions can
>insidiously culminate and destroy a person's soul.

I think this overstates what has happened to Susan.  She has lost
*interest* in Narnia; but Lewis would never want us to equate that interest
with Christian or other faith.  We may hope that she has, or finds, a faith
in this world.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
MS 313
Concurrent Computer Corporation;
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 22:33:43 GMT
From: arthur@saturn.ucsc.edu (Arthur Molin)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, _Till We Have Faces_

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> ...The characters find a group of dwarves (who had opposed the
> protagonists) still inside the stable.  At least they think they are;
> everyone else sees them sitting in an open field.  Aslan demonstrates
> that no matter what he does, these dwarves interpret it according their
> imagined scenario.  ...But after the final judgement Aslan should easily
> be able to use his divine power to pierce through their self-deceipt and
> confront them with the truth, as he had for all the others during the
> judgement scene.

As I recall this scene, Aslan demonstrates that he DOESN'T have "divine"
power that can pierce the veil of self deceit.  I haven't read this for a
while, this being my least favorite book in the series, but I recall Aslan
as saying, "See both what I can and cannot do," or words to that effect.
He then creates a feast out of nothing, etc., but nothing he can do can
confront the dwarves with the truth.

I might add that I don't recall a judgement scene at all.  The people,
heroes and villians, were free to choose Aslan, the good guy, or Tash, the
bad guy, for themselves.  Nobody was judged as such at all.

> This also seems to leave the dwarves in some state of limbo, to spend
> eternity in their imagined stable, while everyone else has gone on to a
> more definite destiny.

I must admit that I never worried about what happened to the dwarves.  To
interpret the story in Christian terms, they are in Purgatory, since if
they acknowledge Aslan they will be Saved.

One more vote: this series is one of the best CHILDRENS' fantasy ever
written, and must be read with that in mind.  They were also written by a
Christian British gentleman.  It does show, but not too much.

Arthur Molin.
University of California
Santa Cruz.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 02:08:21 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: C.S. Lewis, Narnia again

arthur@saturn.ucsc.edu (Arthur Molin) writes:
>stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
[Describes the scene of the dwarves still believing they are in the barn.]
>As I recall this scene, Aslan demonstrates that he DOESN'T have "divine"
>power that can pierce the veil of self deceit.  I haven't read this for a
>while, this being my least favorite book in the series, but I recall Aslan
>as saying, "See both what I can and cannot do," or words to that effect.
>He then creates a feast out of nothing, etc., but nothing he can do can
>confront the dwarves with the truth.

   Wrong.  Bad theology.  A fundamental Christian tenet is that God has
freely given us the power of choice; this power is eternal; He won't take
it away from us.  Christ cannot force us to be saved; we must make that
choice ourselves.  Similarly Aslan cannot force the dwarves to accept
truth; the right to accept or reject was given to them unconditionally.
Christ offers means and opportunity for salvation the choice is ours.  This
scene is one of the most Christian in the series.

>I might add that I don't recall a judgement scene at all.  The people,
>heroes and villians, were free to choose Aslan, the good guy, or Tash, the
>bad guy, for themselves.  Nobody was judged as such at all.

   Your memory fails you.  At the end, there is a door which casts a long
black shadow.  Aslan stands before the door and all creatures of the world
of Narnia stream towards him.  Each looks him in the eye; those who fail
judgement pass into the shadow and are seen no more; those who pass go
through the door into true Narnia.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 22:38:59 GMT
From: hutch@hammer.tek.com (Stephen Hutchison)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (John L McKernan) writes:
>I really don't think it's reasonable to critisize C.S.Lewis's _Chronicles
>Of Narnia_ as being overly religious, although I've seen that on the net a
>number of times. The books are very far from being religious tracts, and
>don't involve any specific religion at all. None of the books is overtly
>religious, with the possible exception of the last book in the series. In
>fact, since the books are full of magic and talking animals, most
>fundamentalists would probably want them banned.

Regardless of the attitudes of "fundamentalists" (who are a small if vocal
subset of Christianity used as an excuse by religious bigots to condemn the
rest of Christian faith without having to think about it), the fact remains
that Lewis deliberately wrote the Chronicles as Christian allegory.

I suggest that anyone who wants to know what Lewis thought about all this
should search out a copy of his book "Past Watchful Dragons" where he tells
how he wanted to present the fundamental ideas and doctrines of his faith
in a way that would excite the "joy" which first attracted him to
Christianity.  The title refers to the censorious guardians Doctrine,
Prejudice, Smug Assurance, and several other vigilant draconian ideas.

Hutch

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 08:18:06 GMT
From: bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu (Per Bothner)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

It is inexact to call the Narnia books "allegories".  They are best thought
of as *parallel-world stories*.  An allegory is *symbolic*. There is not
much religious symbolism in the Narnia stories. What people take as
Christian allegories are not symbols, since they stand for *themselves*.
The key to understanding this is to accept that the metaphisics of Narnia
and Earth are part of the same Ultimate Reality.

Lewis's creative logic goes like this:
  - assume a fictional world (Narnia)
  - assume this fictional world is somehow connected to ours
    (through wardrobes and woods)
  - hence both worlds must be part of a higher reality
  - faith says that in our world God exists and is perfect
  - hence God must exist and be perfect in the higher reality
  - hence God must exist and be perfect in Narnia.

Thus The-Emperor-over-the-Sea does not *symbolize* anything, he *is* God
the Father. And Aslan does not *symbolize* Christ, he *is* Christ (God the
Son) (or at least he is of the same essence).

This point is made clear a number of times. E.g. Aslan somewhere says to
the children that "in your world you know me by another name".  The "real
Narnia" presented in "The Last Battle" does not *represent* our Heaven. It
is Narnia's heaven - and it is *connected* to our Heaven (they can see
their parents over in our Heaven - and it is implied that they later meet).
All of these Heavens are just one *aspect* of the Kingdom of God.

I read the Narnia books many times. The religious meaning was very clear,
but I still enjoyed them. Even in my current critical apostasy, I remember
the books with fondness.

Per Bothner
Computer Science Dept.
Stanford University
Stanford CA 94305
bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu
...!decwrl!glacier!pescadero!bothner

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 10:09:09 GMT
From: polyslo!jmckerna@rutgers.edu (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
>I suggest that anyone who wants to know what Lewis thought about all this
>should search out a copy of his book "Past Watchful Dragons" where he
>tells how he wanted to present the fundamental ideas and doctrines of his
>faith in a way that would excite the "joy" which first attracted him to
>Christianity.  The title refers to the censorious guardians Doctrine,
>Prejudice, Smug Assurance, and several other vigilant draconian ideas.

Note: the line about fundamentalists in my previous posting was really just
a throw-away, it had nothing to do with my central argument.

I have not read the book _Past WatchFul Dragons_, but I am not surprised to
hear that Lewis intended _The Chronicles Of Narnia_ to be some sort of
Christian allegory. Despite this, I still believe it is unreasonable to
criticize the Chronicles for being overly religious. The books never preach
about or for Christianity. The only place any "Christianity" is found is in
the values of the people and creatures who are in the books. Since any
character in any book has to have some sort of values, it really is
insignificant whether those values are christian or martian or cyberpunk.
What's really important are the literary qualities of the work.

When it comes to literary values, _The Chronicles Of Narnia_ do very well.
The only caveat is that they have to be appreciated as childrens books. If
you have any feel for childrens books at all, DON'T pass up the Chronicles
just because you don't want to read somebody preaching about Christianity.
That's nonsense, these books are fantasy classics.

John L. McKernan
Student
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 17:18:13 GMT
From: felix!billw@rutgers.edu (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis, _Till We Have Faces_

PUDAITE@uiucvmd.BITNET writes:
>Among the postings recommending novels by C. S. Lewis, _Till We Have
>Faces_ was mentioned, but it deserves to be singled out.  ...it's a
>re-telling of a story from Greek mythology.

It is the retelling of the story of Psyche.  

I just finished this book and want to add my recommendation to Paul's.
I've been waiting to post this follow-up until I could think of something
profound to say about it, because the book seems to demand profound
thoughts.  The most I can come up with, though, is that I was very
impressed with Lewis' ability to set moods and express each character's
emotions.  The major theme is love, and its many expressions.  This makes
the book somewhat of a romance, but not in the typical way.  It is also
definitely fantasy, but not in the typical sword-and-sorcery way (although
it does include a minute amount of this as well).  This book, as Paul said,
deserves several readings, but it probably isn't for everybody.  Being so
offbeat, it also may be hard to find.

Rating:  [****] (if you like this sort of thing, [***] otherwise)

Bill Weinberger
hplabs!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 01:12:08 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

I belong to the Mythopoeic Society, which is most easily defined as a group
of fans of C. S.  Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Charles Williams.  In 1985,
we had our annual meeting at Wheaton College, outside of Chicago.  Wheaton
is certainly a conservative, evangelical, Protestant place. (For instance,
*no* liquor on campus.)

And, to forestall another possible question, they do recognize perfectly
well that the Narnia books are fantasy.

Christopher J. Henrich
MS 313
Concurrent Computer Corporation;
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:

	   Books - Corey & Lovecraft (7 msgs) & Niven (4 msgs) &
                   Cordwainer Smith (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 01:52:34 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: what do you think?

A quick question...has anyone read _A Matter of Metalaw_ by Lee Corey (??
on the author)?  I started to read this and got real tired of being told
every single little detail possible and put the thing down.  If anyone has
read this, can you tell me if it is worth plowing through the bad style?
thnx.

Bryan McDonald
ccdbryan!ucdavis!{ucbvax,lll-crg,sdcsvax}
bkmcdonald@ucdavis

------------------------------

Date:     29 Jan 88 18:58:24 EST
From:     WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Dumb Question: Lovecraft

This is probably a standard question, but here goes:

In the various Cthulhu Mythos stories, HPL's characters are always
encountering the dreaded _Necronomicon_.  In Lin Carter's _Behind_ _The_
_Cthulhu_ _Mythos_, reference is made to this book "by the mad Arab, Abdul
Alhazred" as being fictional, entirely made up by Lovecraft.{

However, some years ago, before I even knew who or what Lovecraft was, a
friend in my AD&D gaming group introduced the rest of us to what I
distinctly remember as being titled _Necronomicon_.  The author identifies
himself as Alhazred, describes various incantations and ascensions to other
planes, and so forth, all in the style of Lovecraft's sparsely- placed
quotes from this tome.

The book ends unfinished, as demons or some such creature come to take the
Mad Poet from his writing.

Is this Deja Vu, or am I really the direct descendant of Charles Dexter
Ward?  I am certain this book existed, and I suspect that some enterprising
fan or member of the "Circle" actually wrote the text based on what HPL had
to say about it (quotes appearing from, among other places, "The
Festival").

Well?  Should I invest in a copy of Borellus' alchemical text, or just take
a sominex and lay down for a while?

Bruce Onder
wCUTEcb@iup

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 10:18:38 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Dumb Question: Lovecraft

WCUTECB@iup.BITNET (WCUTECB) writes:
[... asking about a copy of the Necronomicon he had recalled seeing...]

Some will tell you that several people have written books which they called
the Necronomicon.  Pay no attention to these people.  I have the original
(but see note).  I have a small but lucrative business selling it to
wealthy collectors.  You may ask how I can make a business out of selling
it.  The answer is very simple; when I sell the book it is invariably
returned to me by the estate of purchaser.  Although it is true that there
are various unpleasantries with local police departments from time to time,
these have always been resolved by letting them examine the evidence.

Note: The skeptical may ask, how do you know that this is the book, if it
is fatal to read it.  A good question.  I cannot, you understand, be
entirely certain.  However, back in the 60's I engaged the services of one
of the Cambridge flower children to read the work and report on its
contents to me.  I will not describe what happened; indeed, I still find
recalling the incident rather disturbing after 20 years.  For the curious I
will merely say that there were aspects of the riots at Harvard that were
discretely not reported by the press.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 88 20:30:38 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Dumb Question: Lovecraft

WCUTECB@iup.BITNET (WCUTECB) writes:
>In the various Cthulhu Mythos stories, HPL's characters are always
>encountering the dreaded _Necronomicon_.
>...
>a friend in my AD&D gaming group introduced the rest of us to what I
>distinctly remember as being titled _Necronomicon_.  The author identifies

AAArrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!

Sorry about that.

Yes, there is a book on the shelves titled _Necronomicon_. Yes, it claims
to be the work of one Abdul Alhazred. Yes, it contains a lot of explicit
instructions and diagrams on how to contact an Elder God.

Don't touch it.

First off, it's a hoax. Next, it is wrong. It is wrong, it is wrong, it is
wrong. Pick it up and read it to amuse yourself, if you must, but do not
believe it. Reading it and using it with intent is a very bad move. Even
Crowleys _Magick_in_Theory_and_Practice_ is a better move than the
_Necronomicon_ (at least Crowley was right, occasionally)

Sorry to dump all the psychic bullshit to the net, but the magnitude of the
error in writing that book, the publishing it, then claiming it is the
_Necronomicon_ of Lovecraft's make me itch.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 00:57:00 GMT
From: sug6@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Randolph Rellington, III)
Subject: Re: Dumb Question: Lovecraft

WCUTECB@iup.BITNET (WCUTECB) writes:
>However, some years ago, before I even knew who or what Lovecraft was, a
>friend in my AD&D gaming group introduced the rest of us to what I
>distinctly remember as being titled _Necronomicon_.  The author identifies
>himself as Alhazred, describes various incantations and ascensions to
>other planes, and so forth, all in the style of Lovecraft's sparsely-
>placed quotes from this tome.

    There was actually published a book entitled _Necronomicon_.  I suppose
it was supposed to be based on Lovecrafts writings (It definitely didn't
come before them).  Unfortunately, I bought this book out of general
curiosity.  It was defintely not worth it.  It was full of a little bit
that tried to sound like overly cryptic Lovecraft but failed to do so.  The
rest looked like a poorly organized and unnoteworthy AD&D magic system.  It
can (or at least could) be found in paperback in many major bookstores in
the occult/astrology section.  It's not that expensive, but I still think
it's not worth it because it is such a disappointment.

Randy Rellington

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 88 18:48:00 GMT
From: bucc2!worm@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Dumb Question: Lovecraft

WCUTECBiup.BITNET (WCUTECB) writes:
>a friend in my AD&D gaming group introduced the rest of us to what I
>distinctly remember as being titled _Necronomicon_
[ stuff deleted ]

   It would be my pleasure to talk about this subject, because, not only do
I own the book you are refering to (it's on the shelf right in front of me,
next to my Lovecraft collection), but I've researched the whole topic
extensively (and lived to tell the tale!) for my own curiosity and an
English paper to boot. I'm VERY into things like mythology, occult (the
scholarly part, not `Let's chant a magic spell to turn our pet dog into a
pool of slime!' foolishness), psychology, literature, etc. Hopefully I'll
answer the question amid my ravings.

   Anyway, lots of people just think someone wrote a book they tacked the
name _Necronomicon_ onto to cash in on the popularity. On the risk of being
branded a lunatic, I think HPL took the big _N_ out of Sumerian myth
(meaning, it wasn't an original idea), and the people who published the
current version drew upon the same sources.  `Necronomicon' means `Book of
the Dead', which many cultures have their versions of. Further, in
Sumerian/Babylonian myth, there are documented accounts of creatures
*extremely* similar to HPL mega-bad guy dudes. Sumerian Kutu-lu `Man of the
Underworld' is Cthulhu, undeniably (he also happens to be the male
counterpart to Tiamat, I'm sure you heard of her!). The list goes on and
on...
   Anyone interested in the connections between Sumerian myth, H. P.
Lovecraft's works, and Aleister Crowley should buy this book. The nonsense
in the beginning about it causing swarms of vermin and Hitler and all this
other weird stuff is amusing to read if you don't take it seriously- and
the magic spells don't work- I know, I called up a living mountain to
attack something and it didn't work (yet :-) But it has a long poem about a
significant Sumerian myth that, to me at least, is worth the price alone:
it actually gave more information on the story of Inanna's (Ishtar's)
resurrection (YEARS before Jesus was supposed to come back from the dead,
by the way. I think I just signalled flames from Christianity believers)
than I could find in specialized texts written about Sumerian myth!
    Good stuff.

Dan Norder
Geisrt Hall 414
911 N. University
Peoria, IL 61606 

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 19:47:50 GMT
From: chinet!clif@rutgers.edu (Clif Flynt)
Subject: Re: Dumb Question: Lovecraft

WCUTECB@iup.BITNET (WCUTECB) writes:
[...]
>In the various Cthulhu Mythos stories, HPL's characters are always
>encountering the dreaded _Necronomicon_.

  I've seen a couple variants on the _Necronomicon_ printed.  The best one,
that a friend of mine picked up some time in the mid to late sixties, was
bound in dark leather, and printed on thick parchment-like paper.  The
Arabic script started out neat and pretty, but got more ragged as you paged
throuth the book, and finally trailed off in a scribble 2/3's of the way
through.
  I don't know if he ever tried to get someone to translate it, but he told
me that the script repeated itself after a while.
  But, it did look Real Nice.

Clif Flynt
ihnp4!chinet!clif

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 14:22:00 GMT
From: awylie@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Dumb Question: Lovecraft

   Necronomicon does NOT mean "book of the dead" but more like "the names
of the dead".

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 12:17 PST
From: Tom Perrine <Perrine@LOGICON.ARPA>
Subject: Niven, Wu(s) and Shaffer

I'm entering the following for a friend whose access to sf-lovers is
via "Adidias-Net":

Greg Porter has provided the text of a letter from Larry Niven in which he
claims that there is no relation between Louis Wu and Carlos Wu.  This may
be Niven's official position *now*, but...

A dozen years ago, at the L.A.  Worldcon, Niven was on a panel discussion
(topic: "On Creating Future Histories").  In the audience Q&A session, I
asked him whether Louis Wu was a descendant of Beowulf Shaeffer (with help
from Carlos Wu) and ultimately of "Lit" Shaeffer.  His reply - to a full
auditorium - "Yes."

Mike Gannis

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 15:12:00 GMT
From: ut-emx!ethan@rutgers.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

jack@cs.hw.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
> much more irritatingly: in Larry Niven's "Neutron Star" (a story which
> loses its entire point from the physics being wrong) the description of
> the tidal stretching effect is bananas. No part of the spaceship would be
> safer than any other and crawling to the middle would leave you exposed
> to tidal forces of the same intensity. In fact the story makes a
> sociological howler even worse than the physical one - a culture that can
> send people within a few miles of a neutron star and which forgets
> elementary Newtonian gravitation theory? Come off it.

Now wait.  The tidal stretching effect is as bad in the center of the ship
as anywhere else, but that is *not* why our idiotic hero crawls to the
center of the ship.  He is *not* trying to avoid stretching, he is trying
to avoid being spread like cream cheese over the front panels of the
control room.  This is a "realistic" problem if you are willing to believe
that the ship's hull cannot be deformed in any way.

However the stretching problem seems quite difficult to cope with.  I did a
order of magnitude calculation for a class once and decided that Beowulf's
head and feet received an impulsive jolt during the 10^(-4) seconds of
closest approach that leaves them traveling apart at about 30 km/sec.
Turning sideways in the passage to minimize stretching would still leave
his chest expanding at a few km/sec.  I'm not a doctor, but isn't this
fatal? :-)

I'll pass on the possibility that he would have air to breath throughout
the encounter.  It seems unlikely.

On a totally different topic, a friend of mine showed me a story where the
hero is trapped, with a criminal, in the *exact* center of a hollow
spherical asteroid "where all the gravitational forces cancel".  There are
paragraphs of mumbo-jumbo concerning Kepler's laws and Newtonian gravity
which show that the author gave serious thought to working this out.  It's
a pity he never read a decent physics text.

Ethan Vishniac
Dept of Astronomy
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
(arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
(bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 01:57:22 GMT
From: jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

>However the stretching problem seems quite difficult to cope with.  I did
>a order of magnitude calculation for a class once and decided that
>Beowulf's head and feet received an impulsive jolt during the 10^(-4)
>seconds of closest approach that leaves them traveling apart at about 30
>km/sec.  Turning sideways in the passage to minimize stretching would
>still leave his chest expanding at a few km/sec.  I'm not a doctor, but
>isn't this fatal? :-)

Niven has written in various places that he was wrong in this story.
Apparently a reader pointed this out to him soon after he wrote it.

John Carr
jfc@ATHENA.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 06:54:40 GMT
From: desj@brahms.berkeley.edu (David desJardins)
Subject: Re: Hemispherism (Northern)

jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr) writes:
>Niven has written in various places that he was wrong in this story.
>Apparently a reader pointed this out to him soon after he wrote it.

   The unfortunate thing is that he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes
(or, more properly, he doesn't seem to care).  The "integral trees" in his
novel with that title are also off by orders of magnitude.  I find it very
annoying that he specifies a lot of numeric quantities, presumably in order
to create verisimilitude, but then doesn't bother to make the numbers
consistent with the storyline.  A simple back-of-the-envelope calculation
would suffice...
   (Perhaps he is expecting the value of G to change by a half-dozen orders
of magnitude in the next millenium... :-) )

David desJardins

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 21:25:05 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@rutgers.edu (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Smith (was: Science fiction digest)

terry@terminus.UUCP (terry) writes:
>[...]
>Anybody remember Cordwainer Smith?  Are there any titles of his still in
>publication?  I have "The Planet Buyer", "The Instrumentality of Mankind",
>and have borrowed the only other one I know of from the local library and
>would like to get copies of it and any other titles you could recommend.

Yeah, CS is of of my all time favorite authors.  All of his SF books have
been reprinted by Ballentine Books within the last 5 - 10 years because of
the efforts of a man named J. J. Peirce, who may may the greatest living
authority on Cordwainer Smith.  _The Planet Buyer_ is only one-half of the
novel _Nortstralia_ (his only SF novel).  His short works are collected in
_The Best of Cordwainer Smith_, _Quest on Three Worlds_, _The
Instrumentality of Man_, and maybe one other, all reprinted by Ballentine.
In case you're wondering why I keep qualifying CS's work as being SF, he
wrote 2 mainstream novels as Cornelias Smith.  His real name was Paul
Linebarger.  His real life was as strange as his stories.  See Pierce's
intro. to _The Best of CS_ for more info.

By the way, I think everyone should write to Harlan Ellison and tell him to
get off his ass and publish _Dangerous Visions 3_.  One of the stories he
is sitting on is Cordwainer Smith's last work.  If I recall correctly it is
a novella length piece called "Himself in Anachron (Anachronon?)".  I
really want to read this story, AND I AM GETTING SICK OF WAITING!

William H. Ansley
uucp:	  ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu         
bitnet:	  ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 20:47:07 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Smith (was: Science fiction digest)

ansley@sunybcs.uucp (William Ansley) writes:
> _Nortstralia_ (his only SF novel).  His short works are collected in _The
> Best

That's _Norstrilia_, which should be clear to anyone who understands
'strine.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Benford (4 msgs) & Lewis &
                            L. Neil Smith

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 18:52:37 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU writes:
>  Let's face it, characterization and style has always been a low-priority
>element in hard science fiction (with the exception of Benford).

I read TIMESCAPE over my winter break this year. I found it trite,
predictable, stale, boring, overworked, overlong, simple, disappointing,
and preachy.  I found the science in it appallingly bad, with a lot of
major screw ups. The characters were cardboard. And it just dragged and
dragged and draaaaagged.

An example of a major screw-up (there were many, and a lot of the time I
think Benford simply made up science but pretended it was "real" science):
at one point the characters receive a binary coded "message from the stars"
- -- you know: one of those things Carl Sagan is always looking for where a
bunch of 0's and 1's, when filled in as black and white squares on a
matrix, form a picture sent to us by extraterrestrials.

You've heard of these before. Usually the idea is the number of bits in the
message is the product of two prime numbers, so that it is easy for the
people on the receiving end to figure out what dimensions to make the
matrix -- they get only two choices M x N or N x M.

Benford had heard of this too. Only no one had bothered to tell him (or he
had not bothered to stay awake in high-school algebra class) that if a
number is the product of two prime numbers, then there are NO OTHER FACTORS
OF THAT NUMBER BESIDES THOSE PRIMES EXCEPT THE NUMBER 1. See, his Brilliant
Physicist spent many long hours constructing what he called various
possible matrices that the bits would fill perfectly, filling them in, and
despairing because no picture had emerged.

Then, he suddenly exclaimed that he'd been such a fool wasting all this
time!  He should have noticed from the first, before trying out all these
other "possible" matrices, that the number of bits in the message was THE
PRODUCT OF TWO PRIME NUMBERS! Therefore, he should have chosen to try the
"most obvious" "possible" matrix dimensions FIRST! And, lo, there was a
picture.

However, the astute reader notes that, due to the fact that the number WAS
the product of two primes, Our Hero has wasted many hours constructing
matrices which do not in actuality exist at all. Or, rather, Benford sayeth
thus.

And, no kidding, folks, there were worse screw ups than this one.

On the whole I do not like to trash SF that gets its science slighty wrong
- -- who cares. It shouldn't detract from the story, and besides, this is
*fiction*.  However, I *do* object to extreme stupidity -- even more so
when the stupidity is on the part of the author even more than on the part
of his feebly realized characters. Benford is not one who is just dumb
enough to hinge his whole plot on the stupidity of his characters and
expect us to swallow it.  He is dumb enough to have these stupidity
problems in REAL LIFE, enough to say such things as, "Hmmmmmm. What do 1
and 1 add up to? Ahhhh -- there are many possibilities, and each of them is
equally true. However, after many many hours of deep and ponderous
pondering, I have come to the conclusion that most people, even
extraterrestrials, would probably agree that 2 is a slightly more obvious
answer than any of those others."

Kevin Cherkauer
....sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 11:42:09 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>An example of a major screw-up (there were many, and a lot of the time I
>think Benford simply made up science but pretended it was "real" science):

Since Benford is a practicing astrophysicist, and, from what I hear, a
pretty decent one, I think this is way off the mark.  He certainly knows
his basics - the simplest conversation with him would prove that.

Part of the whole point of TIMESCAPE is that science does not move
smoothly, like a nice machine that just cranks out the theories.  It
stumbles along, a prisoner of the fact that it is being done, not by
infallible robots, but by real human beings, people who can make mistakes,
make wrong assumptions, suffer from fatigue and just plain general
stupidity at times.  If you, an astute reader, notice something that it
takes the character several pseudo-hours to notice, that does not mean that
the author is stupid; it probably means that he was trying to make a point
which you, supposedly astute, missed.

I suspect that you are in a distinct minority in thinking TIMESCAPE a
stupid book.  Most of the people I know, especially those who are working
in the hard sciences, think of it as one of the most intelligent stories
about the doing of science that has ever been written.  It's not a book
about superbrains, but then most scientists would probably resent being
characterized as that.  It's a book about scientists who are, first and
most importantly, people.  People who have real lives, real problems, and
real deficiencies.  In spite of that, they do their best.  If that
conflicts with your ideal scientist image, then perhaps you might give some
thought to the proposition that it is your image which is faulty.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren 
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 06:28:29 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@rutgers.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>Since Benford is a practicing astrophysicist, and, from what I hear, a
>>pretty decent one, I think this is way off the mark.  He certainly knows
>>his basics - the simplest conversation with him would prove that.

Ahhh -- but his screwup was *mathematical*, and as we all know, physicists
CANNOT do math. (No smiley here -- I am totally serious on this one.)

However, I remember TIMESCAPE as having other things which I would call
mistakes in interpretations of physical theories. The one that comes to
mind is his explaining the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in a vain such
as this: "The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle tells us that the more we
know about something, the less we actually know about it," or: "The HUP
tells us that the more we measure something, the lower the chance that we
know what day it was yesterday."

These, of course, are exaggerations, but you get the idea.

BTW, you say Benford is an astrophysicist. I find this hard to believe, but
then I do realize that most universities will give almost anyone a
doctorate provided they are not utterly stupid and they stick at it
loooooong enough (kind of like the guy who got one during the course of the
story). The whole way through the book I got the distinct impression that
Benford *wanted* to be a physicist, and had gone to some or other
prestigious university to study physics as an undergraduate, and had
subsequently flunked out.

>It's a book about scientists who are, first and most importantly, people.
>People who have real lives, real problems, and real deficiencies.  In
>spite of that, they do their best.  If that conflicts with your ideal
>scientist image, then perhaps you might give some thought to the
>proposition that it is your image which is faulty.

Nay, the characters in the book are not that deep. And my "ideal scientist
image" is not different from my "ideal person image."

Another BTW: if I were to make a personal Worst Writers list (worst
*writers*, mind you, not worst *ideas* or worst *human beings* or anything
like that), the top three would currently be:

1) Stephen King
2) Piers Anthony (#1 for worst ideas here, forget what I said above...)
3) Gregory Benford

Kevin Cherkauer
....sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 07:33:11 GMT
From: killer!elg@rutgers.edu (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) says:
>farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>>Since Benford is a practicing astrophysicist, and, from what I hear, a
>>pretty decent one, I think this is way off the mark.  He certainly knows
>>his basics - the simplest conversation with him would prove that.
> However, I remember TIMESCAPE as having other things which I would call
> mistakes in interpretations of physical theories. The one that comes to
> mind is his explaining the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in a vain
> such as

When trying to explain something to novices, it's best to do what Donald
Knuth calls "simplistic lies" (see preface to the TeXbook), and only later
say "But actually, it doesn't quite work that way, there's more to it."
Some of the computer-related articles I've seen in places like Reader's
Digest would be laughable if you didn't realize that they're trying to do
simplistic explanations for total idiots....

> BTW, you say Benford is an astrophysicist. I find this hard to believe, 

Let's just say that Gregory Benford is one of the few people in this world
who could powssibly in his lifetime win both a Nebula and a Nobel. He is
first-rate all the way.

> Another BTW: if I were to make a personal Worst Writers list (worst
> *writers*, mind you, not worst *ideas* or worst *human beings* or
> anything like that), the top three would currently be:
>
> 1) Stephen King
> 2) Piers Anthony (#1 for worst ideas here, forget what I said above...)
> 3) Gregory Benford

Hmm... have you ever read _In the Ocean of Night_? _Across the sea of
stars_?  _The Stars in Shroud_ (my favorite Benford)? I haven't read
_Timescape_... it might well be as miserable as you think it is. But every
other Benford work I've ever read has been definitely a winner. Mentioning
Benford and Piers Anthony in the same article is laughable. As for his
writing skills.... _In the Ocean of Night_ was a very "experimental" style,
_The Stars in Shroud_ visited mysticism, _sea of stars_ was a
straight-forward "hard science"/psychological story... I think he's
demonstrated his skills and versatility as a writer quite well, thank you.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509      
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 23:09:59 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@rutgers.edu (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (John L McKernan) writes:
>...C.S.Lewis's _Chronicles Of Narnia_ ...  are very far from being
>religious tracts, and don't involve any specific religion at all. None of
>the books is overtly religious, with the possible exception of the last
>book in the series. In fact, since the books are full of magic and talking
>animals, most fundamentalists would probably want them banned.

Anyone who would react that way is a very atypical Christian, and maybe
even an atypical fundamentalist.  The Narnia books are enjoyed by many
Christians in all denominations, including conservative evangelical
Protestants. (Of course they are enjoyed by many who are not Christians as
well!)

>Specifically someone could claim that Aslan represents some sort of
>Christian deity. This has hardly a leg to stand on, Aslan is simply a very
>good and powerful character in the story.

Since the Narnia books are eminently RE-readable, it may not be necessary
to issue the following
          ***** SPOILER WARNING *****

There is plenty of evidence that Aslan does represent Jesus Christ.  First
of all, there is internal evidence:

1. The world of Narnia is made through the agency of Aslan (The Magician's
Nephew).

2. Aslan voluntarily gives up his life (The Lion, the Witch, and the
Wardrobe), and by this act rescues a sinner.  He rises from the dead, not
merely resuscitated but more alive than ever.

3. Aslan's presence in Narnia is real, even when he is not visible.  In
either Prince Caspian or The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Lucy recites a
spell to make the unseen visible, and suddenly notices Aslan.  The way that
one doesn't quite see Aslan's arrivals and departures is reminscent of the
post-Resurrection appearances of Christ.

4. In The Horse and His Boy, Aslan answers the question "Who are you?" by
saying "Myself." (I am that I am, says the Lord.) He gives this answer
three times, because he is a Person of the Blessed Trinity.

5. At the end of The Last Battle, Aslan returns to judge the living and the
dead.

We also have external evidence that Lewis intended Aslan to be a
representation of Christ.  The most convincing may be a letter that Lewis
wrote to a young reader who had posed the question.  He reviews some of the
internal evidence, including (from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe)
that when Aslan comes into the world, he is heralded by Father Christmas
(=Santa Claus) bearing gifts.  I don't have this letter here (perhaps it is
in the published collection of _Letters to Children_); but I do have
_Letters of C.S.Lewis_, which has this (page 283; "To a lady", 29 December
1958):

   In reality [Aslan] is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the
   question, 'What might Christ become like, if there really were a world
   like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in
   *that* world as he actually has done in ours?'

>... His personality is nothing short of playful at times, and people ride
>around on his back.

Surely this is consistent with the character of Jesus as we see Him in the
Gospels.  He was fond of children, and didn't want His disciples to shoo
them away.  Perhaps, just perhaps, he sometimes picked them up, or gave
them piggy-back rides?

It may be unfortunate that when we go to church we are usually required to
be quiet and above all to keep a straight face, so that the seriousness of
the occasion drives out any mirthful impulse.  Here's another letter from
C. S. Lewis (page 272; 6 December 1956);

   I think there may be *some* humour.  Matt. IX. 12 (People who are well
   don't need doctors) could well be said in a way that would be very funny
   to everyone present except the Pharisees.  ...  If there were more
   humour, should we (modern Occidentals) *see* it? I've been muchstruck in
   conversation with a Jewess by the extent to which Jews see humour in the
   O.T. where we don't.  Humour varies so much from culture to culture.

Besides the examples in Lewis's letter, consider the story of the woman
about to be stoned for adultery.  The way Jesus resolved the problem, if
not exactly a joke, has the same kind of surprise and originality that a
good joke does.

>The claims that the books are poorly plotted and have "simplistic
>linguistics" (whatever that means) are also wrong. The books were written
>for children and their plots have a bit less overt depth and complexity
>than adult novels.

Lewis confirms this in another letter (page 307; 2 December 1962).

Christopher J. Henrich
MS 313
Concurrent Computer Corporation;
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 21:25:02 GMT
From: dasys1!wlinden@rutgers.edu (William Linden)
Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith (was: Re: C3PO and R2D2

troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU (Bret Jolly) writes:
> I've read 2 books by L. Neil Smith, _The Probability Broach_ and _Tom
>Paine Maru_ and I want to warn the net that they are really god-awful.
[Assessement at length of Smith's faults deleted for brevity]

While I agree with the assessment given by the previous poster (although,
being a sucker for CW books, I did not think PROBABILITY BROACH was THAT
bad), the two he names are masterful compared with THE GALLATIN DIVERGENCE.
The whole plot is a time-travel story devoted to Our Heroes trying to
thwart a statist plot to change the past of their time-line and prevent the
anarcho-libertarian society of the previous books from coming into
existence. Then the Good Guys inadvertently change history themselves-- and
it turns out not to matter, because their original timeline is still there
for them to reach. No explanation given for this abrupt about-face.
   He also has his 18th century characters talking in 20th century
Americanese about discrimination by "sexual preference". Sufficiently
nauseating-- but then, the proclivities he invents for the Bad Guys show
clearly that he considers some sexual preferences preferable to others.

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:

		Books - McIntyre (2 msgs) & Snyder (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 04:28:57 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: McIntyre Interview - Part I

Here, at long last, are the answers to the questions and comments sent in
for the Usenet interview with Vonda McIntyre.  The text fronted with
brackets is the text of the question as Vonda understood it.  In every
case, this matched well enough with the original question that it makes no
difference.  The name at the beginning of each question is that of the
original questioner, without a pathname attached.  Due to an administrative
screwup here, a couple of the questions lost their associated names.  Sorry
- - I hope those folk are still here.  Also, the last two questions are
"generic" questions, asked in some form by quite a few folk.

Note: any errors in grammar, punctuation or the like are probably mine.
The answers are all Vonda's words, though.  I have not edited them in any
way.  I've also split this into two postings, as it was WAY too long
originally.

Begin Part I

>Sharon Fisher: Why don't you write your "own stuff."  By the way, I won't
>make fun of you if you respond "because I make a lot more money that way";
>that's perfectly reasonable.

   I do write my own stuff.  The way the movie schedule works, I more or
less alternate my own books with the novel versions of the Star Trek
scripts.  But last year, two ST books came out in quick succession, with
lots of publicity, and BARBARY (my first kid's book) came out at the same
time with no publicity at all.  When SUPERLUMINAL came out a couple of
years back, it more or less vanished as well.

   At the moment I'm working on an original novel, STARFARERS, which people
who have attended recent Orycons and Norwescons may remember as "The best
tv miniseries never shown."  It's the first novel that I know of whose fan
club formed before the novel was written.  It's going to be published by
Berkley.

>Dani Zweig: How does Dreamsnake tie into THE EXILE WAITING?  My impression
>was that DREAMSNAKE was written later & that the cavern entrance to the
>city in DREAMSNAKE was a throwaway link to the earlier novel, but EXILE is
>chronologically a little later.  Is this correct?

   DREAMSNAKE was written after EXILE, and the two books "meet" only at the
cavern entrance.  (Unless you count the place when Jan Hikaru and Mischa go
outside in the storm to the spaceship.)  I never decided whether DREAMSNAKE
or EXILE comes first chronologically.

>Shawn Fagen: Ok, how about a compliment?  I actually enjoyed the 2 ST
>novels of yours I've read (ENTERPRISE and STAR TREK IV); I've also enjoyed
>the stories about the healer.  Snake was her name.

   Thank you.

>Sam Southerd:  I have enjoyed every one of your books that I've read.

   Thank you, too.

>Reid Ellis: 2 short and sweet questions: Will you be writing for STTNG?
>If so, will you fix the Ferengi?

   I thought I had submitted a story idea to the new series when Paramount
decreed that I did not have sufficient experience to suggest a story, much
less write a script.

[The next few questions were forwarded from Europe by Jacqueline Cote]
>Are you currently working on a new novel, ST or general?

   I'm working on a new book, STARFARERS; see reply to Question 1.

>I have four of your general novels; have you written any other books
>besides the ST novels?

   BARBARY, a novel about a kid who smuggles a cat onto a space station,
came out about a year ago.  Berkley's publishing it in paperback in June.

>Are you a full-time or part-time writer?  What other work do you do?

   I'm a fulltime writer.  I occasionally get bullied into teaching a week
of a writing workshop or something like that, but that's more as a favor
for whoever's running it, and to offer my experience to new writers the way
experienced writers offered their knowledge to me at Clarion, than as a way
to make a living.  (There are a LOT easier and less exhausting ways to make
a living than by teaching.  Alligator mud-wrestling, for example.)

>How did you get involved in writing ST novels?  Are you a diehard trekkie
>like the rest of us or what?  How come Paramount approached you to do the
>novelizations?

   When Pocket Books acquired the license to publish original Star Trek
novels, David Hartwell was the editor.  (This was the late lamented
TIMESCAPE line.)  He knew that I had always been fond of the original
series, so he asked if I were interested in writing a Star Trek novel.  I
thought about it for a while and decided that I did.  It was interesting --
like collaborating with myself at the age of 18 (when the series was first
on).  I've known those characters for half my life, and I thoroughly enjoy
visiting Gene Roddenberry's universe.  THE ENTROPY EFFECT came out well, so
when David needed someone to write the novel version of THE WRATH OF KHAN,
he asked me -- he knew I respected the material and that I would finish the
book when I said I would.  (Novel versions of movie scripts can't afford to
be late -- either they come out when the movie appears, or they don't come
out at all.)  Paramount didn't have anything directly to do with choosing
me, though they approve everything that's professionally published that's
related to Star Trek.

>Will you write scripts for the new show?

   See my answer above.

>Give Vonda my regards and thank her for her work.  I like her stuff,
>unlike that of some female SF writers I could mention.

   I'm confused -- does this mean that you like the work of every male SF
writer that you've ever read?  Remarkable!

>Eric King: I was wondering, why did you use "Constellation" class rather
>than the accepted "Constitution" class in E:TFA?  Also, in the
>novelization of WRATH, why did you completely rewrite the ending scene?
>Your version was much less touching than the movie's.

   I used Bjo Trimble's STAR TREK CONCORDANCE and Stephen Whitfield's THE
MAKING OF STAR TREK as my main resources, besides my memories of the
original series, for writing ENTERPRISE.  As far as I'm concerned, if Bjo
Trimble says the ENTERPRISE was originally a "Constellation" class
starship, it was originally a "Constellation" class starship.  Nobody has
demonstrated to my satisfaction that it wasn't ever a "Constellation" class
starship.  Somewhere along the line it was an "Enterprise" class starship,
and a "star cruiser" (or something on that order), and now it's a "Galaxy"
class starship.

   As for the end of WRATH -- I'm not entirely sure which differences
you're objecting to.  Everything that was in the script they sent me was in
the novel, plus some extra.  (That's part of my job, to fill in the
interior reactions that you can't present in a movie.)  But sometime
between when I finished the manuscript and when the movie came out, the
ending of the movie changed.

End Part I

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 00:34:43 GMT
From: gethen!farren@rutgers.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Interview Answers - Part II

Begin Part II

>Kevin Rushforth: I have enjoyed your ST novelizations & ENTERPRISE.  I
>heard a rumor you were writing for THE NEW GENERATION.  Could you write us
>a plot summary, no spoilers please.

   I'm not writing for THE NEW GENERATION.

>Khazar: Is there any means various novel writers use to maintain
>continuity between the stories?  I saw some evidence of this between THE
>ROMULAN WAY and HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET.
>
>How does a peon like this get access to this source of information?

There is no "bible" (that's what the writer's guide for a TV series is
called) for writers of Star Trek novels.  Dave Stern, the editor at Pocket
Books, does his best to maintain continuity, but since lapses in continuity
have occured since the beginning, the task is impossible.

>Christien Labordus: Many people have reacted unfavorably to ENTERPRISE.
>What's your reaction to these criticisms and what's your opinion of the
>novel?

   Gene Roddenberry liked it, and that's good enough for me.

   To tell you the truth, the only negative reaction I've directly received
on ENTERPRISE is the Constellation/Constitution question, so you'll have to
give me more detail about what you didn't like.  I did hear second or third
hand that some people were upset when the characters didn't fall instantly
into the "old friends" relationship we are used to from the series.  I find
this rather startling.  Showing the characters at the beginning of the
relationship was the whole point of the book.  If their interactions with
each other hadn't changed and evolved, there would have been no reason to
write ENTERPRISE in the first place.  I thought it was pretty funny that
Jim and Spock took an instant dislike to each other and that Scott thought
Jim was an inexperienced tyro, completely incapable of handling a ship like
the ENTERPRISE, and that Sulu wants nothing more than to get off the boring
dull ENTERPRISE and onto a ship where he'll get some real excitement, and
that Uhura can play a practical joke, and that Jim's Lothario image got
turned on its head, not once but twice, and that Spock knows how to juggle.
Folks who take this all so seriously that they can't see the fun in it make
me want to do my Foghorn Leghorn imitation: "It's a joke, son, a joke."

   I think it's a pretty damned good book, especially considering I only
had three months to write it in.

>?:  What's your favorite ST episode, and what do you think of TNG?

   I don't have one particular favorite episode, but a group of about a
dozen that I thought were particularly good.

>In STAR TREK IV, there's a scene with Spock and Kirk in Gillian's car.
>She puts a tape on.  Kirk doesn't recognize it as music, but thinks it's
>noise.  Isn't that overdoing it?  Why did you throw in this "extra bit"?

   You're lucky -- obviously your friends don't start muttering about
"noise" whenever you put your favorite Waylon and Willie record on the
stereo.

>Art Evans: I immensely enjoyed the 3 (or was it 4) stories in the Snake
>world.  Were there more?  Do you intend to write more?  Please convey this
>reader's hope that you'll write more.

   There is actually one novel based on a short story -- the first story
("Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand") in ANALOG was the original short story;
the other two were condensations from the novel.  If you've only read the
ANALOG stories, you've missed the whole central section of the novel, which
the editor felt was too sexually liberated for ANALOG readers.

   The characters in DREAMSNAKE haven't demanded to have more written about
them, but one never knows what will happen in this business.

>  How does one go about selling and publishing a Star Trek novel?  Can I
>send one to you to read?

   I'm afraid I'm not supposed to read unpublished Star Trek stories (and
to tell you the truth I don't usually read published Star Trek stories
because I prefer to write out of my memories of the original series).
Publishing a Star Trek story as a first novel is a toughie.  Pocket Books
isn't reading unsolicited Star Trek manuscripts any more.  (They were
getting 15 per week, and David Stern, the editor, is already massively
overworked.)  If you have published fiction or can persuade an agent to
represent you, you can probably get your story read.  If not -- my first
suggestion is to write a novel of your own set in a universe you've made up
for yourself.  For one thing, ten or twenty different places might publish
it.  With a Star Trek novel, you have one chance, period.

   However, I do understand the attraction of working in Gene Roddenberry's
universe.  I enjoy it thoroughly.  So, if that is what you want to do, my
suggestion would be to write a short description of your book, send it to
David Stern at Pocket Books, and ask if he would be willing to read the
completed manuscript.  If you have a good idea and you present it in a
literate, professional, and civilized manner, you have a better chance of
its being considered.  (Enclose a stamped return envelope.)

   You should know that a Star Trek novel is a "work for hire," which means
not only that Paramount owns the copyright, but that someone at the studio
has to approve everything that is published as Star Trek.  They have been
known to give people a hard time over their ideas for what to do with the
characters.

   I assume that all of you know about the Star Trek fan community, which
publishes Star Trek fiction.

>   A lot of people are upset at your taking liberties with the "real
>history" of ST.

   Does anybody know that the "real history" of Star Trek is?  I sure
don't.  At one point somebody jumped on me for giving Sulu a first name,
Hikaru, because "everybody knows Sulu's first name is Walter."  "Everybody"
didn't happen to include Gene Roddenberry or George Takei, both of whom
approved "Hikaru" before the publication of THE ENTROPY EFFECT.  You have
the history of the series, the history of the movies, the history of the
Bantam novels, the history of the Pocket Books novels, the history of the
comic books (I didn't even KNOW about the comic books until after the
publication of ENTERPRISE), the fan history, and now the history of the new
series.  All the histories have their own internal inconsistencies, never
mind inconsistencies between the media.  The Star Trek fan club, Starfleet,
doesn't consider events established in the novels (all of which are
approved by Paramount) to be "official."  What Paramount thinks of
Starfleet's version of Star Trek history is yet to be heard.

   There simply isn't one single completely consistent history of Star
Trek.  The only think I can recommend to people who find this fact
troubling is that they look upon the phenomenon as a collection of slightly
differing parallel universes.

End Part II

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jan 88 10:26:15 MST
From: Mike Duigou <MDUIGOU%UALTAVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Zilpha Keatly Snyder

   Has anyone else out there read the work of This author? As far as I know
She has only written 3 books and they form a trilogy. The books were
originally written for younger readers, but I was exposed to her work by a
computer game oddly enough. I then decided to read the books. I had a bit
of trouble getting them, but the trouble was worth the result. Though the
books were written with younger readers in mind, they are no less literate
than adult book. And the science is darn good. The premise is colonists
from earth on a low gravity planet approximately 3000 years after they get
there. The original colonists had been nature freaks so the level of
technology is very low. This does not matter however climate is temprate
and life is easy. There are two societies on this planet, one that lives in
the trees and "flies" with wing like apparatus ( like I said the gravity is
low, real low ) and a second society that lives underground. I won't spill
details, but the series is about how the two societies rediscover each
other. The book titles are:
   "Below the Root"
   "And All Between:
   "Until the Celebration"

Mike Duigou
University of Alberta
MDUIGOU@UALTAVM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 88 22:35:11 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: Zilpha Keatly Snyder

> Has anyone else out there read the work of This author?  As far as I know
> she has only written 3 books and they form a trilogy.
>   "Below the Root"
>   "And All Between:
>   "Until the Celebration"

Zilpha Keatley Snyder has written many books, mostly for young readers.
Some of her books include

   The Velvet Room
   The Egypt Game
   The Changling

and another series that starts with A Witch in the Family and includes
Blair's Nightmare as well as several others whose titles I can't remember
offhand.

All of them are quite good, and I tend to like her "normal" books better
than the "Below the Root" trilogy.

Linda Kinsel
hplabs!hpldola!linda

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 22:30:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Zilpha Keatly Snyder

I never realized anyone else even knew who she was....

She also wrote several other books intended for the juvenile audience,
although no others that classify as science fiction like the ones quoted.

the books I recall are:
 
   _The Witches of Worm_
   _The Egypt Game_	(I think this was hers)
   _The Headless Cupid_

they all have a pseudo-occult tone to them...things happen that are
mysterious and seem attributable to some supernatural force, but usually
end up being something else.  In fifth and sixth grade I enjoyed them very
much, but I can't remember them well enough to judge their attractiveness
to adults.......

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Sheckley (2 msgs) & Tolkien (3 msgs) &
                      Verne & Zahn & Elfquest & Ace Specials &
                      Vacuum Flowers (2 msgs) & 
                      Reference Sought (2 msgs) & 
                      First Contact Stories

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 08:12:31 PST (Friday)
From: Wahl.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Sheckley
cc: AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,
 gt-stratus!chen@rutgers.edu (Ray Chen)

I'm a big Sheckley fan, although I have to qualify that: I love his short
stories, but his novels are pretty lousy.  Many of the novels are based on
short stories, and read like it.  His ideas are very well-suited to a
hit-and-run attack of a short story, but when he tries to expand them to
include a long plot and real characters, he falls flat.  In fact, the 10th
Victim, which I haven't read, is based on "The Seventh Victim" which worked
well as a short story.

So, please, don't judge Sheckley by his novels!  The only novel of his, in
fact, that I'd recommend is his spy novel, The Game of X.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 17:56:42 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Sheckley's Shorts

Wahl.es@XEROX.COM writes:
>I'm a big Sheckley fan, although I have to qualify that: I love his short
>stories, but his novels are pretty lousy.  Many of the novels are based on
>short stories, and read like it.  His ideas are very well-suited to a
>hit-and-run attack of a short story, but when he tries to expand them to
>include a long plot and real characters, he falls flat.

Yours is an opinion I've expressed many times myself, though I never came
up with a catch phrase quite so appropriate as "hit-and-run attack".  I
think your observations apply not just to Sheckly but to most SF writers
(at least most of the ones I like to read: Niven, Heinlein, to a lesser
extent the less the non-gonzo types like Anderson and Haldeman -- and of
course those non-professional writers who used to publish in Astounding).
Part of the blame has to rest on the genre itself.  SF values original
ideas and striking premises far above other literary values, and thus tends
to attract writers who are weak in structuring a long story.  Also SF, with
its emphasis on Facts, makes life very hard for the writer, since
inconsistences that would be overlooked in other kinds of fiction are
glaringly obvious in SF; the shorter a story is, the less chance for this
kind of problem.

>  In fact, the 10th Victim, which I haven't read, is based on "The Seventh
>Victim" which worked well as a short story.

To be precise, "The Tenth Victim," although written by Sheckley, owes a lot
to the movie it was based on (also called TTV; 1965, Marcello Mastrianni
and Ursulla Andress -- not the sort of movie SF Fans are gonna like) which
in turn was loosely (very loosely) based on Sheckly's short story "The
Seventh Victim".  The short has the same premise as the book and movie
(murder/hunt games taking the place of war) but the story is much
different, with a typically Shecklyish Dark Joke that I liked very much but
would be quite impossible to translate to movie or TV.

Another Sheckly book worth reading is "Dimension of Miracles".  This is a
novel about a human from 1970 New York who accidentally wins the Galactic
Lottery and spends most of the novel trying to get home (it's a mistake to
leave your home planet without knowing its space-time coordinates).  Viewed
as a novel, it's sort of disappointing, but if you just read it as a
collection of short stories (in fact, most of the pieces were originally
published separately) it's a whole lot of fun.  My favorite part is where
we find out why the world is imperfect (the contractor was cutting
corners).  Now that I think of it, Adams must have been influenced by this
book when he wrote "The Hitchhiker's Guide".  The overall style of the two
works is similar, but I find DOM far more original -- and much funnier,
since Adams's humor is often too broad and self-conscious for my taste.

>So, please, don't judge Sheckley by his novels!  The only novel of his, in
>fact, that I'd recommend is his spy novel, The Game of X.

I read that one a long time ago.  I liked it very much, but at the time I
liked just the sort of lowbrow spy novels it made fun of.  Probably to
enjoy TGOX, it helps to be an Ian Fleming fan.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date:     Wed, 27 Jan 88 14:58:34 EST
From:     "Hugh A. Huntzinger" (CCL-S) <huntzing@ARDEC.ARPA>
Subject: Tolkien

derek@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Derek J. LeLash) writes:
>While we're on the subject of the History of Middle-Earth, I would like to
>know if there are some hard-core fans who have read and assimilated the
>whole series who would like to share their impressions. I am trying to put
>together an independent reading course for next term here at Dartmouth
>based on these books, and would like to know what other devotees have
>gotten out of them.

While I am only a semi-hard-core fan (haven't finished Lost Tales yet),
something of interest to you may be my old college term paper on LoTR:

Aragorn fulfilled significant portions of (..some guy's..) definition of
the prerequisites for being a "Classical Hero" (like Ulysses, Beowolf).

These prerequisities were like a list of around 20 things, such as:

Unusual birth
Hidden identity
Unusual death
Quest
etc.

I wish I could remember more of these, but it's been a decade.  If people
are interested, say so & I'll go dig it up to reread & report.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 05:54:15 GMT
From: A6C%psuvmb.bitnet@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien

>One last reason for not expecting a perfect trilogy would have to be that
>he died during the writing of the series and the books to explain them.

   I'm not sure which book(s) you refer to here, but I can cite a few
approximately correct dates: LotR was completed about 1949, accepted for
publication about 1954.  The American edition and appendices came about
1965.  Tolkien died in 1972, leaving _The Silmarillion_ unfinished.

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 88 17:39:24 GMT
From: cunniff@hpfclq.hp.com (Ross Cunniff)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>Yes, Lewis has a real gift for vivid visual imagery.  I am inclined to
>agree that The Lord of the Rings is greater than the space trilogy, but
>the comparison is quite apt.  The two works are coeval, the fruit of an
>agreement between Lewis and Tolkien that they should each write a book,
>one about space travel and one about time travel.

Actually, the story that Tolkien wrote to fulfill the agreement was to be
titled 'The Lost Road', and was to be a story of how a man and his son are
transported back to Numenor just in time to witness the destruction of that
land.  The fragments that Tolkien completed have recently been published in
_The History of Middle Earth Volume V: The Lost Road_ (I just got it
yesterday).  For those of you who, like me, are fascinated with the
evolution of Tolkien's writings, I _highly_ recommend both _Unfinished
Tales_ and all five (soon to be six? I hope, I hope!) volumes of _The
History of Middle Earth_ (_The Book of Lost Tales, I_, _The Book of Lost
Tales, II_, _The Lays of Beleriand_, _The Shaping of Middle Earth_, and
_The Lost Road_).

Ross Cunniff
Hewlett-Packard System Software Operation
{ucbvax,hplabs}!hpda!cunniff
cunniff%hpda@hplabs.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 02:23:19 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Multiple Volume Novels

For all you who bemoan the "recent" trend to take a long novel, split it
into two or three parts, and call it a duology or a trilogy (but only
hidden at the end of the first part--"Here ends Part 1 of "The Adventures
of Irving.  Look for "The Return of Irving" coming soon to a bookstore near
you."), I wish to point out a book that I just finished reading which does
this.  It is Jules Verne's INTO THE NIGER BEND, which is continued in THE
CITY IN THE SAHARA.  Since the end of INTO THE NIGER BEND has all the main
characters being kidnapped (okay, so that's a slight spoiler), one can
hardly claim it's a stand-alone novel.  The translation I read was
published in 1960 by Ace Books.  The original is described in the
introduction as being in Books I and II, but whether it was as deceptively
packaged is unclear.

(In all honesty, it does say buried in the blurb on the back cover of INTO
THE NIGER BEND that it is the first book of the "long novel that Verne
called The Astonishing Adventure of the Barsac Mission."  But all the other
Verne novels in this series were stand-alones and there is nothing on the
front cover to indicate that these aren't also.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 16:21:27 PST (Friday)
From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com
Subject: "Cobra Bargain" by Timothy Zahn, with book blurb

   Recently the third book in Zahn's Cobra universe came out.  It has the
same feel as the first two books.  Lots of fun, and very entertaining.  I
stayed up till 1:30 this morning to finish it.  I'm looking forward to the
next Cobra book.
   For those of you who haven't read any of the Cobra books, Zahn creates a
universe where the army builds a super warrior who, like in Heinlein's
"StarShip Trooper", is able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and do
huge amounts of damage.  The major difference is everything is inside of
the body, the computer, the laser, and a few other things.
   Does anyone know when the next Blackcollar book will be out?
   From the back of the book:

" It is the year 2474.  Corwin Moreau, now 55, is governor of Aventine, but
the fact that the Moreau family has held power for so long is beginning to
generate bad feelings in the Cobra Worlds Council.  Corwin's contributions
to the colony's success and those of his legendary father - Jonny Moreau,
the Original Cobra - are fading in the light of an anti-Cobra political
faction.
   But the greatest challenge of 'Cobra Bargain' faces Corwin's niece,
Jasmine.  Her only ambition is to become a Cobra - but no woman has ever
been accepted to the Academy or ever will be, if her opponents have their
way.  Then a mission arises that demands Jasmine's participation.
Information is desperately needed on the planet Qasamea's growing space
capabilities.  A female would create camouflage for the infiltrating force
- - and because Jasmine has mastered the difficult Qasaman language, she is
reluctantly accepted.  Disaster strikes almost immediately....."
    
Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 21:28:26 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Elfquest:  The Identity Crisis

"Wolfsong", the second Elfquest shared-world anthology is out.  EQ fanatics
will read it no matter what I say about it.  Others might want to note that
a) you won't know what's going on if you haven't read "Blood of Ten
Chiefs", the first anthology and b) the quality of the writing is
comparable to that of the first anthology: determinedly mediocre.

Whereas the first anthology contained a story from the time of each chief,
most of the stories in this one concentrate on the earlier years and deal
with such diverse topics as elves trying to find out what it means to be an
elf, part-elves trying to find out what it means not to be pure elves,
elves trying to find out who and what they are...

If you've never read the Elfquest comics, you'll probably be wasting your
time if you read the anthologies.  If you have read and enjoyed the comics
you'll probably want to read these stories too -- but don't pay $6.95 for
them.  Wait till the mass market editions appear in a used book store, or
wait until a copy appears in your local library, or read it in the
bookstore.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 07:00:57 GMT
From: wenn@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Ace Specials

If anyone is interested, I now have a complete list of Original Ace
Specials.  In addition to the 33 books I named in my original post (and the
Stein / Friedberg mistake), the 4 additional books are:

1971	Gerald Conway		The Midnight Dancers
1971	Gordon Eklund		The Eclipse of Dawn
1971	Bruce McAllister	Humanity Prime
1971	Michael Moorcock	The Warlord of the Air

Also, just this week another New Ace Special has been published.  This book
was editied by Terry Carr before his death, but has just now relased.  I
would assume that this is the last of the New Ace Specials.  The new book
is:

1988	Richard Kadrey		Metrophage

Reviews when I have the time to read them.

John

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 08:31:41 GMT
From: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Vacuum Flowers

Just read a new SF cyberpunk book called Vacuum Flowers in paperback.

If you are into the cyberpunk universe, this one is a must.  Not so into
the idea of people wired into computers in real time, this one focuses more
on the concept of using a computer to download a new personality, or an
upgrade or enhancement to a current personality or set of skills.

Really, really nice concepts in the story.  The one that gives the title is
one of the best, and a nice argument against thoughtless release of
man-made or man-altered lifeforms without a LOT of thought.

I'd give a better review, but I ran right over to my cyberpunk loving
friend and pressed this book into his hot little hands, so I don't know the
author (same one who wrote In the Drift, I do remember) or the publisher
this time; sorry!

Check it out!

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 16:17:51 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Vacuum Flowers

kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
> Just read a new SF cyberpunk book called Vacuum Flowers in paperback.  If
> you are into the cyberpunk universe, this one is a must.

I have to second the recommendation.  But don't read it because it's
cyberpunk.  If this is cyberpunk, so is anything set in the near future
with human capabilities enhanced by technology, and that's a bit broad a
definition for me.  Read it because it's a good book.

David Eppstein
Columbia U. Computer Science
eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 18:39:32 GMT
From: jefu@pawl11.pawl.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Putnam)
Subject: Book reference sought

I'm looking for a book I read about (oh, gawd) 15 years ago.  It was about
discovering a race on another planet and the theological problems that it
brought up for earthside religions.  I read it in a British printing and
believe it was a British author - but that's overlaid with fuzz.  Sorry I
can't be more specific, but if I could I probably would have been able to
find it before.

Jeff Putnam  
jeff_putnam%rpitsmts}@itsgw.rpi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 88 20:49:34 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Book reference sought

jefu@pawl11.pawl.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Putnam) writes:
>I'm looking for a book I read about (oh, gawd) 15 years ago.  It was about
>discovering a race on another planet and the theological problems that it
>brought up for earthside religions.  I read it in a British printing and
>believe it was a British author - but that's overlaid with fuzz.  Sorry I
>can't be more specific, but if I could I probably would have been able to
>find it before.

Could you perhaps mean _A_Case_of_Conscience_, by James Blish?

As I recall, the premise ran:

Humans find a jungle-type planet with a thriving civilization. A Jesuit
priest in the first diplomatic/scientific party decides they are a tool of
the Enemy (Satan, that is) because:

o eggs are laid in the sea, which grow into fish-like creatures, the
  recapitulate phylogeny, becoming reptilian, then mammalian, then
  humanoid. (Thus perpetuating the heresy of evolution)

o all the aliens adhere to a pure Christian type morality apparently by 
  instinct (without benefit of church or religion)

o Their planet suits them perfectly; There are no major diseases, no
  natural predators, food is abundant. In general, they live in an Eden,
  but without the grace of god.

When I read it, some years ago, I was never sure whether Blish was arguing
for the church, or chiding it gently.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 06:35:00 GMT
From: jsp@hpclskh.hp.com
Subject: "First contact" stories wanted

Hi, people, I need some help.  I am looking for novels or stories of the
"first contact" variety, especially those that deal with the problems of
communicating with a totally alien race.

The purpose is to show someone contemplating writing such a story what has
already been done.  Therefore, I am not only interested in the best
examples, but also in the volume of examples.

Please, if it's a short story, include a source (magazine title and date,
or anthology title) if you can; I'm sure I don't need to say this.  email,
please, unless it bounces or you think others will be interested.  Thanx in
advance.

James Preston

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Wolfe (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 12:29:33 GMT
From: rruxjj!wwd@rutgers.edu (bill donahue)
Subject: Re: _Soldier of the Mist_

wenn@GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU.UUCP writes:
>        Try _The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other
> Stories_, or _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ for short story collections, or
> _Free Live Free_ (a contemporary fantasy) or _Soldier of the Mist_ (a
> story set in ancient Greece) for novels.

I read _Soldier of the Mist_ a while back and was very much impressed, but
>>What is going on in this story??<< I was going to post that query just
after I had read _Soldier_ but I thought "It's (probably) not really
science fiction, and there's enough silly flames."  So I see where it's the
top nominee for the Nebula. I go ahead and read the next nominee (I already
read Brin and _Shore of Women_, not really all that impressed by either)
which turns out again to be a very well-written tale (forget the title &
author -- _The Falling Victim_?)  about Mayan mythology and its real(?)
effects on people.  Shades of _Soldier_!!! (except there its Greek myths).

So two (maybe three) basic questions:
1) What is happening in _Soldier of the Mist_?  Most of Wolfe's stories
seem to like to play with time and perceptions. Something like that might
be going on in _Soldier_. Why does the main character have a Latin name
instead of Greek? Does he come from another time? What is happening in the
`gaps' of the story?

2) Are these (_Soldier_ and _Falling_) really science fiction? Is there an
on going backlash of sorts to the cyber-punk movement which is producing
these very `soft' psychological/mythological based tales?  Actually I would
enjoy this very much, being an old LeGuin fan.

2.5) What is the boundary between speculative fiction (note the extension)
and what is perceived as `Mainstream'? I'm still disappointed that
_Gravity's Rainbow_ lost the Nebula back when.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 20:59:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Soldier of the Mist

> So two (maybe three) basic questions:
> 1) What is happening in _Soldier of the Mist_?  Most of Wolfe's stories
> seem to like to play with time and perceptions. Something like that might
> be going on in _Soldier_. Why does the main character have a Latin name
> instead of Greek? Does he come from another time? What is happening in
> the `gaps' of the story?
>
> 2) Are these (_Soldier_ and _Falling_) really science fiction? Is there
> an on going backlash of sorts to the cyber-punk movement which is
> producing these very `soft' psychological/mythological based tales?
> Actually I would enjoy this very much, being an old LeGuin fan.
>
> 2.5) What is the boundary between speculative fiction (note the
> extension) and what is perceived as `Mainstream'? I'm still disappointed
> that _Gravity's Rainbow_ lost the Nebula back when.

   I'll take a stab at it.  I think Latro is simply a Latin (or Roman, or
whatever) mercenary in the war between Persia and Greece.  I'd have to
check the history to be sure, but I believe that Romans and Latin existed
then, though their peak lay before them.  No complicated time-travel
necessary.  The gods Latro meets make occasional references to the nature
of his people (Romans), if I remember correctly.  The gaps in the story are
straight-forward as well.  Since Latro's memory only lasts about half a
day, the gap starts when he puts his stylus down, and when he writes again
he fills the reader in on what happened, as well as he can remember to do.
   As far as "what's going on" in terms of why Latro is important and what
his destiny is, and why he was deprived of his memory and given the ability
to see supernatural beings, I have no idea, and I'll just have to wait and
see as the series develops.  This series looks like the "Book of the New
Sun" turned on its head: set in the ancient past instead of the very
distant future; a fantasy world rather a science-fiction one (in rationale,
at least, though they have a similar feel); and Latro has almost no memory
where Severian had a near-perfect one.  Most of all, the stories are
narrated in the first person, as they happened; so that instead of knowing
what the major theme and conflict in the story are as we usually do when we
read, we have to figure it out as it happens as people do in their actual
lives.
   I won't even venture to draw the line between fantasy and SF.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 07:50:45 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: _Soldier of the Mist_

Bill Donahue writes:
>So two (maybe three) basic questions:
>1) What is happening in _Soldier of the Mist_?  Most of Wolfe's stories
>seem to like to play with time and perceptions. Something like that might
>be going on in _Soldier_. Why does the main character have a Latin name
>instead of Greek? Does he come from another time? What is happening in the
>`gaps' of the story?

He has a Latin name because he's a Roman.  If you read carefully, you will
find references to "Eagles" which were the Roman battle standards.  The
only problem with the eagles is that it's probably too early in history for
small bands of mercenaries to be carrying them around.  In a post a few
months ago, I suggested that some kind of time warp was involved, and while
several people responded, none really answered my point.

I also found it curious that the protagonist never described the fellow
mercenaries when he met them at the end.

>2) Are these (_Soldier_ and _Falling_) really science fiction?

Not really sf, but perhaps fantasy.

>2.5) What is the boundary between speculative fiction (note the extension)
>and what is perceived as `Mainstream'?

Tell me what frequency is the boundary between green and blue and I'll tell
you the boundary between sf and mainstream.

Dan Tilque

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 18:43:10 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

>Well, I have been following the discussion on Gene Wolfe with some
>interest.  The only book by him I have read is _Free Live Free_.  I hated
>it.
>
>I LIKE unusual books.  (I thoroughly enjoyed LeGuin's _Always Coming
>Home_, for example.)  But I never did understand what _FLF_ was about, or
>why anyone had bothered to write it.

Free Live Free is by far Wolfe's least typical book. It generates very
strong emotional reactions -- you either hate it or you love it. I was
fascinated by it, drawn into it and forced to read it, although I frankly
am still not sure I liked it. At the same time, I had to read it. That's a
rare reaction for me.

The book was written as a set of character studies. No plot, really, very
little anything except an attempt to take the characters and make them as
real and as detailed as possible. In this, I think he suceeded -- these
folks are some of the most vivid characters I've run into in a long time.
At the same time, though, the ending is rather weak -- it reads as if Wolfe
suddenly realized he was out of words and on a deadline and had to do
something about ending this thing NOW. That really isn't true, however,
because if you read the early parts of the book the ending is telegraphed
in there, if you know what you're looking for. But the ending is still too
abrupt.

The book is experimental. It was designed to generate strong emotions. On
this I think it succeeds. But I wouldn't use this as the introductory book
for Wolfe, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to others, because it's
hard to tell how someone will react to an experimental piece of fiction.
You're much better off looking for Soldier of the Mists or Shadow of the
Torturer, which are his more mainline, typical works.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 00:04:43 GMT
From: djk@vail.columbia.edu (David Kurlander)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA (LT Sheri Smith USN) writes:
>Well, I have been following the discussion on Gene Wolfe with some
>interest.  The only book by him I have read is _Free Live Free_.  I hated
>it.

Wolfe is one of the best SF writer out there, and certainly my favorite.
It's a pity that you started with _Free_Live_Free_, because after
_Operation_Ares_ that's probably his poorest book.  Though as always
Wolfe's writing was excellent, the plot of FLF could have used major
surgery.  Don't give up on Wolfe until you read _Shadow_of_the_Torturer_,
which is one of his best works, and though it can stand by itself, it's the
first book in perhaps the greatest SF series of all time,
_The_Book_of_the_New_Sun_.  Incidentally, all of the books in this series
(with the exception of the last) were written before the first was
published, and the manner in which small details early in the series take
on a special significance after later events is truly wonderful.

Incidentally, _The_Urth_of_the_New_Sun_, the epilogue to _The_Book_of_the_
New_Sun_ tetrology (or the fifth and last book in the pentology) is out in
hardcover.  Like most of Wolfe's works, it's well-written and extremely
creative.  Certainly a fine conclusion to an awesome series.

David Kurlander

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 17:53:44 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

I didn't like Free Live Free as well as Wolfe's other books, but it did
have some of the same strange, haunted quality about it.  None of his books
(except perhaps Book of the New Sun) are the kind you just can't put down,
but they seem to draw you, mesmerized, into his web.  He has some
resemblences to Borges and others, but is a very, very unique writer.  I
love his little vignettes inside the longer works.  Truly masterful.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 18:54:31 GMT
From: astroatc!jojo@rutgers.edu (Jon Wesener)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

djk@vail.UUCP (David Kurlander) writes:
>Incidentally, _The_Urth_of_the_New_Sun_, the epilogue to _The_Book_of_the_
>New_Sun_ tetrology (or the fifth and last book in the pentology) is out in
>hardcover.  Like most of Wolfe's works, it's well-written and extremely
>creative.  Certainly a fine conclusion to an awesome series.

Conclusion?  I'd say Wolfe set himself up at a fine place to continue the
series in a whole new world!  I wouldn't be surprised if another book came
out starting off where this last on left off.  I still think I'll have to
read the whole series 3-4 times before I catch most of what's going on.
The way the last book played with time made my head spin!

Jon Wesener
{seismo|harvard|ihnp4}!{uwvax|cs.wisc.edu}!astroatc!jojo

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 21:52:41 GMT
From: djk@vail.columbia.edu (David Kurlander)
Subject: Wolfe and series in general

jojo@astroatc.UUCP (Jon Wesener) writes:
>Conclusion?  I'd say Wolfe set himself up at a fine place to continue the
>series in a whole new world!

When Wolfe wrote the original four books of the New Sun series, he was not
planning on writing _The_Urth_of_the_New_Sun_.  David Hartwell, then the
editor at Timescape, had Wolfe agree to this as a condition for the
publication of the first four.  My impression is that Wolfe doesn't want to
get bogged down in any particular world and that he likes experimenting
with fiction.  In a way, I hope he doesn't write any more books in this
world since the ones which he has already written stand so well by
themselves.  Think about all of those SF writers which have destroyed the
value of their most successful series by later writing inferior works:
Asimov (Foundation), Herbert (Dune), Farmer (Riverworld), Donaldson (the
Foul books :-)), Clarke (20**, actually Clarke diminished a work by turning
it into a series)...

One of the reasons that I like SF is to read about creative new world
constructions.  Some SF writers have many stories in the same universe in
order to reduce the world construction overhead.  Other SF writers, usually
during their twilight years, seem to feel a need to link together many
works written in different universes (Heinlein, Asimov).  I much prefer to
see an author move on to a different setting for his works, since there is
usually a certain amount of diminished returns in describing the same world
multiple times -- better two great trilogies than a series of 6 books.

David Kurlander
djk@vail.columbia.edu
harvard!david

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 18:57:10 GMT
From: inuxf!matt@rutgers.edu (Matt Verner)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

I also had a tough time initially with _Free Live Free_ and I am a long
time Gene Wolfe reader (actually I guess I am a Gene Wolfe fanatic).  The
plot DID drag at points, and the only thing that kept me going was his
super character development.  The various main characters (remember the
pitiful salesman looking through the hole in the wall? Or the old woman who
spoke in mixed cliches?)  were _extremely_ lifelike and I really had a good
time looking over their shoulders and into their lives.  I am sorry that
the book was 'wrong' for you but try not to let this one book turn you off
to Gene Wolfe in general.

> And, please, don't tell me to go read Piers instead. Wolfe, at least, can
> WRITE. I will give him that. Or perhaps he wants people to actively hate
> his work???  Certainly the book was memorable!

Actually I _never_ pick up a Wolfe book for 'light' reading.  And I
certainly go through periods of time where 'light' reading is exactly what
I want.  At those times Anthony or Asimov or even an old favorite like
Burroughs fill in nicely.  But for the times when I really want to curl up
and be challenged there is no one else in SF that can do it like Wolfe can.
Zelazny when he is at his best can give him a run.  Delany can also.  But
Wolfe is the best in my opinion.

I think that all of his books are 'memorable'.  I don't think that he wants
anyone to hate his works, he just wants the books to be affecting in some
way.  Do yourself a favor and pick up the _The Book of The New Sun_.  The
writing is better, the characters are likable (even though the main
character, Severain, is a torturer by trade) and the plotting is fantastic
(in the best sense of the word...). 

Matt Verner
AT&T Graphics Software Labs		
Indianapolis,  IN
(317) 844-4364
...ihnp4!inuxc!matt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 08:10:32 GMT
From: utah-gr!donn@rutgers.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

I guess I must be a minority of one -- I absolutely loved FREE LIVE FREE.
If you didn't like FREE LIVE FREE, you surely will abhor PEACE, which was
the book that convinced me Wolfe was my favorite writer back when I first
found a copy in the Los Altos Public Library in 1977.  These novels contain
Wolfe's best and funniest writing, and some of his most interesting
characters.  Neither book is science fiction, although I have seen various
reviewers trying to paint FREE into this corner.  These novels have more in
common with books like Crowley's LITTLE, BIG than with NEW SUN, perhaps,
but I hardly find this disappointing; an author is not a product, nor even
a brand name, and I take it as a sign of originality that an author can be
perceived as 'abandoning his loyal readers' in search of new ones.

I hate spoiling books, but since FREE LIVE FREE seems to have generated
such wide misunderstanding, I'll drop two pointers.  What is Candy's
favorite movie?  (Hint: it's mentioned in the first few pages.)  Try to
imagine FREE as a liberal remake of this movie, and perhaps the novel will
make some sense to you.  The other thing you can do for yourself is to
re-read the excellent novella 'The Eyeflash Miracles' in the DOCTOR DEATH
collection -- I like to think of it as a study for FREE.

Wolfe loves to leave clues like this in his stories.  Here are some more,
free of charge: To understand PEACE, you must understand the title; the
'study' for PEACE is the story 'The Changeling', in the BOOK OF DAYS.  The
key to THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS, however, is the protagonist's name (no,
it's not 'Number Five').  It took me at least a couple readings of each
novel (sometimes many more!) before I appreciated Wolfe's cleverness...

Of course none of you has any special obligation to enjoy a book you don't
understand, but it's frustrating to me to see so quickly dismissed a book
that I thought was beautiful and deep and funny and magical, and I wonder
how I can communicate my feeling to you if you couldn't extract it from the
author's own words.

The worst cut was comparing FREE to OPERATION ARES.

Donn Seeley
University of Utah CS Dept
(801) 581-5668
donn@cs.utah.edu
utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 25 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Wyndham (15 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 10:09:51 GMT
From: hlh@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (S.J.Thomas)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>Oh - for libraries, try "Harris", which is, I believe, John Wyndham's
>actual name, Wyndham being a pseudonym.

John Wyndham's real name is (or possibly was) John Beynon Wyndham Harris.
He wrote under most of the pseudonyms you can generate by choosing 2 from 4
names.  Most of the novels which are remembered today were written as John
Wyndham, but I remember reading stuff by John Beynon and John Harris, none
of it much good.  Sorry, I can't remember any titles, as it's been many
years.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 19:33:59 GMT
From: claire@russell.stanford.edu (Claire Jones)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

It a bit late for nit-picking, but I always thought the book was Kraken
Wakes (well beginning with a K anyway) and the one about mutation was the
Crysalids.  That set of books has been criticised for being 'middle-class'
disaster stories (which seems to mean lacking in the obligatory rape scenes
when civilization has collapsed :-) I personally very much like Trouble
with Lichen, a fascinating story about the discovery of a lichen which
slows down aging.  I have also read over and over again a book of short
stories entitled Consider Her Ways.

In Britain the books are widely available in libraries etc.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 15:09:13 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

claire@russell.UUCP (Claire Jones) writes:
>It a bit late for nit-picking, but I always thought the book was Kraken
>Wakes (well beginning with a K anyway) and the one about mutation was the
>Crysalids.

I posted the original article, and I'd like to say that you're right on
both accounts (we-e-ell, it's actually the cHrysalids--sorry), and thanks
for reminding me of the second title which I had forgotten.

I'm glad to see someone else interested in his work.

On that note, how many people have heard of ancient authors with quaint
sci-fi ideas, like Wyndham?

amit

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 02:19:00 GMT
From: frog!wjr@rutgers.edu (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

hlh@ukc.ac.uk (S.J.Thomas) writes:
>farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>>Oh - for libraries, try "Harris", which is, I believe, John Wyndham's
>>actual name, Wyndham being a pseudonym.
>John Wyndham's real name is (or possibly was) John Beynon Wyndham Harris.

Actually I believe his full name was John Wyndham Lewis Parkes Benyon
Harris.  (I may have gotten a couple of the middle names out of order or
mispelled.)

William J. Richard
Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. 
Framingham, MA 01701
Tel: (617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 01:56:22 GMT
From: microsoft!t-tedt@rutgers.edu (Ted Timar)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

A few years ago, I read a book by Wyndham called "Rebirth". I really liked
the book, and went looking for other books by this author. No libraries I
found had an author called Wyndham who had written Rebirth. After much
research, I discovered that Rebirth was actually "Chrysalids", with a new
name. I don't really know why anyone would rename a book that has been out
for more than 30 years. I believe the "guilty" publisher was Del Rey.

Ted Timar

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 88 15:57:56 GMT
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

t-tedt@forward.UUCP writes:
>A few years ago, I read a book by Wyndham called "Rebirth". . . .  I
>discovered that Rebirth was actually "Chrysalids", . . .  I don't really
>know why anyone would rename a book that has been out for more than 30
>years. . . .

This is really a question more for the likes of Mr. Boyajian, but I'm
willing to venture a guess that CHRYSALIDS is the *original* title, or
perhaps the title that was used in England.  It seems frequently books are
retitled when they are imported to the U.S.  Sometimes the original title
is restored upon later reprinting.

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 19:40:30 GMT
From: loral!dml@rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

t-tedt@forward.UUCP writes:
>A few years ago, I read a book by Wyndham called "Rebirth". I really liked
>the book, and went looking for other books by this author. No libraries I
>found had an author called Wyndham who had written Rebirth. After much
>research, I discovered that Rebirth was actually "Chrysalids", with a new
>name. I don't really know why anyone would rename a book that has been out
>for more than 30 years. I believe the "guilty" publisher was Del Rey.

  I first encountered the story in the Anthony Boucher anthology "A
Treasury of Great Science Fiction" (2 volumes, hardcover). In that
collection its title was "Re-Birth". I don't know when that was published,
but it was certainly before 1970. Seems to me it WAS published by Del Rey,
at that....

  It's been a while since I've seen those books, but I remember that each
volume opened with one incredible novel and closed with another one.
"Re-Birth" was the opening story in one volume or t'other (I SAID it's been
a while..).  Other stories I remember are "The Stars My Destination", by
Alfred Bester; "The Weapon Shops of Isher", by A. E. van Vogt; "The Man Who
Sold the Moon", by Robert A. Heinlein; "Piggy Bank", by ???; "Bullard
Reflects" -- a story based entirely on a McGuffin -- by another ???...

  This "Chrysalids" business reminds me of something I saw several months
ago when our postnews was broke. Somebody posted an article referring to
"The Stars My Destination" as "Tiger! Tiger!". Now, since that is one of my
favorite stories of all time, I've taken the trouble to find out a few
things about it. The novel was originally serialized in Galaxy magazine
from October 1956 through January 1957 under the title "The Stars My
Destination"; Galaxy did not at that time accept previously published
material (if indeed they ever did); no mention is made of any previous
publication under any title; and later issues contain ads announcing the
paperback, again titled "The Stars My Destination". (how 'bout that? My
favorite story, published before I was)

  Only recently has there been another book I'd rate as high as "Stars" --
Spider and Jeanne Robinson's "Stardance".

Dave Lewis
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
...loral!dml 

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 20:37:29 GMT
From: jak@nancy (Jak Kirman)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

I too am an avid reader of John Wyndham's books.  I have (I believe) all of
his books, including the older ones written as John Beynon, and his latest
one, Web.  (If he has written anything since that I would love to know...).
I bought all the books of his I have in England, so I don't know if they
are available here.  If there is any interest in a list of his books, send
me mail, and I will post it.  Some of his early books are remarkably
accurate in their portrayal of the future, and at least as enjoyable as his
later ones.

Jak Kirman
Apt 3
154 Irving Av
Providence, RI 02906
(401) 272 5727
CSnet: jak@cs.brown.edu
BITNET:jak@browncs.BITNET
ARPA:  jak%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net
UUCP:  ...!{decvax,allegra,ihnp4}!brunix!jak

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 88 15:01:21 GMT
From: bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

jak@brunix.UUCP (Jak Kirman) writes:
>I bought all the books of his I have in England, so I don't know if they
>are available here.

   Many of John Wyndham's books (novels + short story collections) are
available in Penguin Books paperbacks.

>Some of his early books are remarkably accurate in their portrayal of the
>future, and at least as enjoyable as his later ones.

   I don't know about accurate (or the relevance of accuracy for that
matter) but they are enjoyable.  My personal favorite is _Jizzle_ available
in the anthology by that name.  (I live in NYC and travel the subways a
lot, often I fantasize about the line to Europe, let alone this!  <No
spoiler, read it yourself> :^)

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 21:21:39 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@rutgers.edu (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

> A few years ago, I read a book by Wyndham called "Rebirth". I really
> liked the book, and went looking for other books by this author. No
> libraries I found had an author called Wyndham who had written Rebirth.
> After much research, I discovered that Rebirth was actually "Chrysalids",
> with a new name. I don't really know why anyone would rename a book that
> has been out for more than 30 years. I believe the "guilty" publisher was
> Del Rey.

REBIRTH was published, if I recall, about 30 years ago, by that name.  I
have the original paperback in my SF collection, and it was I think one of
the original offerings in the old time Ballantine SF paperback club.

CHRYSALIDS was probably the title of the British version.  In any event,
any decent SF reference will give both names, and nearly all American fen
know it as REBIRTH.

(If that one gave you trouble, then try to find WHEN THE KRAKEN WAKES by
the same author.  Hint: above is the Brit title, not the US one.)

Arlan Andrews

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 06:12:33 GMT
From: jpexg@mit-hermes.ai.mit.edu.ai.mit.edu (John Purbrick)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

> (If that one gave you trouble, then try to find WHEN THE KRAKEN WAKES by
> the same author.  Hint: above is the Brit title, not the US one.)

You sure will have trouble--the title is "The Kraken Wakes".

What's the origin of the title? Yes, of course, it's from Tennyson: (The
Kraken, in Norse myth, was a monster which lay under the Maelstrom
whirlpool)

Below the thunders of the upper deep
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep,
The Kraken sleepeth, and shall lie
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep,
Then, roaring, he shall rise,
And on the surface die.

[Abridged for this edition]

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 17:25:47 GMT
From: jak@nancy (Jak Kirman)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

    I have received quite a few requests that I post a list of John
Wyndham's books.  I think that the list below is exhaustive, but I am not
sure.  I would be grateful if anyone who knows of any others would send me
mail about them.
    The dates are those of publication; three of the books I don't have
here, so I don't know the precise dates, but I think that the order is
correct.
    His first four books were written under the pseudonym of John Beynon or
John Beynon Harris (which was his real name).
    My editions are : those written as John Beynon by Coronet, Jizzle by
New English Library, and the rest by Penguin.  I bought the non-Penguins in
the mid-seventies, so I don't know if they are still in print. (I bought
all of my copies in England.)
    John Wyndham died in 1969, and Web was only published about 10 years
later (heaven knows why).  So my request for any more recent books of his
is unlikely to produce any results :-)
    The Midwich Cuckoos was filmed as The Village of the Damned (which I
found terrible); I don't know if any other books of his have been made into
films.
    The Chrysalids was indeed the original name of the book; Rebirth was
the American title.  For some reason American publishers seem to like
changing the names of books (very frustrating if you think you have just
found a new P.G. Wodehouse, only to find that you already have it under the
original name...)

1933    Wanderers of Time       (short stories)   (as John Beynon)
1935    Stowaway to Mars        (novel)           (as John Beynon)
1935    The Secret People       (novel)           (as John Beynon)
1938    Sleepers of Mars        (short stories)   (as John Beynon)
1951    The Day of the Triffids (novel)
1953    The Kraken Wakes        (novel)
1954    Jizzle                  (short stories)
1955    The Chrysalids          (novel)
1956    The Seeds of Time       (short stories)
1957    The Midwich Cuckoos     (novel)         
1959    The Outward Urge        (novel)           (with Lucas Parkes)
19??    Trouble with Lichen     (novel)
1961    Consider her Ways       (short stories)
19??    Chocky                  (novel)
1979?   Web                     (novel)           (posthumous)

Have fun looking for them :-)

Jak Kirman
Apt 3
154 Irving Av
Providence, RI 02906
(401) 272 5727
CSnet: jak@cs.brown.edu
BITNET:jak@browncs.BITNET
ARPA:  jak%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net
UUCP:  ...!{decvax,allegra,ihnp4}!brunix!jak

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 88 00:35:07 GMT
From: phred!daveh@rutgers.edu (Dave Hampton)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

arlan@inuxm.UUCP (A Andrews) writes:
>(Try to find WHEN THE KRAKEN WAKES by the same author.  Hint: above is the
>Brit title, not the US one.)

The U.S. title, in paperback, was OUT OF THE DEEPS, a very nice,
atmospheric story about an alien invasion by creatures who never emerge
from the deepest ocean.  It's told, in very British style, from the point
of view of a husband-wife BBC reporting team.  Of all of Wyndham's books
(including TRIFFIDS), I enjoyed this most...

Dave Hampton
Research Division, Physio-Control Corp.
P.O. Box 97006
Redmond, WA  98073-9706
uiucuxc!tikal!phred!daveh 

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 88 22:07:29 GMT
From: bc-cis!john@rutgers.edu (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

>    The Midwich Cuckoos was filmed as The Village of the Damned (which I
>found terrible); I don't know if any other books of his have been made
>into films.

   Of course, _Triffids_ was a `50s American movie (mediocre at best,
starring Wm Holden) and was re-done by the BBC and recently seen here in
the USA as a TV special on PBS stations (excellent).  Someone on the Net
recently made reference to a Philip Wylie work as being so prophetic as to
require no suspension of disbelief.  Well, _Triffids_ would become
tomorrow's headlines, with *Star Wars* satellites & lasers zapping away
upstairs and add in what we're doing to the environment, seems to me like
it could just as well be Real.

>1935    The Secret People       (novel)           (as John Beynon)
         ^  Watch out.  Could also be entitled _Sub-Sahara_

>1938    Sleepers of Mars        (short stories)   (as John Beynon)
 ^      Individual stories have copyright dates 1931 thru 1938

>1961    Consider her Ways       (short stories)
>19??    Chocky                  (novel)
 ^      1968

   I have two titles you don't but in one case I'm almost sure it's just a
repackaging of short stories in a new anthology (don't you hate it when
they do that?  It's why I keep the names of individual short stories in my
personal card catalog.  Yes, I got so many duplicates in my collection I
broke down and wrote myself a hand-held card catalog!).
   (1)  _The Infinite Moment_ (Ballantine, USA, anthology, 1961) :-
        contains: _Consider Her Ways_, _Odd_, _How Do I do_,
        _Stitch in Time_, _Random Quest_, _Time Out_
   (2)  _Exiles On Asperus_ (Coronet, Brit, anthology, 1979) :-
        contains: _Exiles On Asperus_ (1933),
        _No Place Like Earth_ (1951), and
        _The Venus Adventure_ (1932)

_Infinite Moment_ could be _Consider Her Ways_ under a new title (don't
know).  I'll have to check next time I'm in the bookstore.  Altogether you
have six titles I don't (including _Midwich Cuckoos_, how embarrasing :) I
have to check out _Wanderers in Time_ and _Trouble With Lichen_

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 11:35:37 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
> Of course, _Triffids_ was a `50s American movie (mediocre at best,
> starring Wm Holden)

No such movie existed, I am pretty sure.  Aren't you thinking of the 1963
British film that starred Howard Keel?

> and was re-done by the BBC and recently seen here in the USA as a TV
> special on PBS stations (excellent).

I'll second that, but where I am it is only shown on the Arts and
Entertainment cable network.

> Someone on the Net 

Probably me.

> recently made reference to a Philip Wylie work as being so prophetic as
> to require no suspension of disbelief.

That may go beyond what I said, but it is pretty much on target for what
has happened since it was written.

********** SPOILER WARNING ************ 

> Well, _Triffids_ would become tomorrow's headlines, with *Star Wars*
> satellites & lasers zapping away upstairs and add in what we're doing to
> the environment, seems to me like it could just as well be Real.

I am not sure I believe the "meteor shower" is possible, and the triffids
themselves are a good deal further from what is even likely.  I am not fond
of SDI, but it is a LONG way from having the technical capability or any
reason to do what was done in the novel and film.  If you are seriously
worried about SDI understand what it is, don't turn it into some sort of
absurd Boogy-man.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 25 Feb 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:

		     Books - Wolfe & Wylie (5 msgs) &
                             Post Holocaust Fantasy (2 msgs) &
                             Dotty science in SF (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 14:43:28 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Wolfe

donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley) writes:
>I guess I must be a minority of one -- I absolutely loved FREE LIVE FREE.
>These novels have more in common with books like Crowley's LITTLE, BIG
>than with NEW SUN, perhaps, but I hardly find this disappointing; an
>
>Of course none of you has any special obligation to enjoy a book you don't
>understand, but it's frustrating to me to see so quickly dismissed a book
>that I thought was beautiful and deep and funny and magical, and I wonder
>how I can communicate my feeling to you if you couldn't extract it from
>the author's own words.

Well, I don't think you quite understood my posting.  I didn't say I did
not enjoy FLF, just that I didn't like it AS WELL AS his other works (I
include 5th Head, which I thought marvelous).  I haven't read Peace or
Ares.  You comment about FLF and Crowley's Little, Big was interesting.  I
was unable to finish that book.  A Winter's Tale seemed much more like
Little, Big, and I couldn't read it through either.  The characters in FLF
were very interesting, but the creation of new worlds (as in Book of the
New Sun, and 5th Head) gives a dimension missing in FLF.  Wolfe is not an
easy writer to read.  You have to be in the mood.  I can go months without
him, and then pick him up again.  He is a very good portrayer of tortured
souls and evokes a mood that is unreal.  He never tells everything there is
to tell about his world and characters (maybe you were able to get more
from a close study than I was) but I like that.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 88 10:17:01 EST
From: laura@vax.darpa.mil

Does anybody remember a book called The End Of The Dream? It was about
eco-collapse and its attendant horrors (the particular horror I remember
best is the eel-creatures whose natural prey is wiped out, so they come up
on land looking for new prey....)

I read it when I was quite young, and it gave me nightmares and crying fits
for weeks - to the point where I deliberately wiped the author and title
out of my mind. What I'm curious about is: is it really that powerful a
book, or did a not very good book intersect with some flaw in my young
psyche? I'm certainly not reading it again to find out - just looking at
the cover when I rediscovered it made me hyperventilate.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jan 88 23:09:16 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: THE END OF THE DREAM

laura@VAX.DARPA.MIL writes:
>Does anybody remember a book called The End Of The Dream? It was about
>eco-collapse and its attendant horrors (the particular horror I remember
>best is the eel-creatures whose natural prey is wiped out, so they come up
>on land looking for new prey....)
>
>I read it when I was quite young, and it gave me nightmares and crying
>fits for weeks - to the point where I deliberately wiped the author and
>title out of my mind. What I'm curious about is: is it really that
>powerful a book, or did a not very good book intersect with some flaw in
>my young psyche?

Ah, yes.  THE END OF THE DREAM, by Philip Wylie.  The last of the wine, you
might say; Wylie's last book.  It was probably the best of the '60s/'70s
"ecodisaster document" novels, and if it upset you, I assure you it was
intended to.  (I was fifteen when the first of at least two DAW editions
was published.  I, too, had night-fears about the eel-creatures.  Actually,
I remember them as being worm-creatures, but that doesn't really matter:
they go by the popular name "vibes," as in "bad."  -- they also resonate
with Kurt Vonnegut's story "The Big Space F**k," which ends with giant
lampreys getting disgusted with Lake Erie and coming onto land.)

Wylie was one of the most influential writers of the twentieth century: not
because his own books were famous, but because they provoked such
incredible response.  One of his earliest novels, GLADIATOR, was -- if not
the first -- certainly one of the first uses of the "superior mutant" theme
in SF; however, its most important influence on our culture was not in the
realm of SF at all, but through a pair of young men named Schuster and
Siegel who read it, and created a character which they sold to National
Periodicals, or its predecessor -- a character called "Superman."

His novel THE DISAPPEARANCE had a tremendous impact on some of the leaders
of today's women's movement.  It concerns a day when every man on Earth
wakes up -- to find every *woman* on Earth gone.

Then there is his non-fiction, most notable GENERATION OF VIPERS.  In
recent years, there has been much talk about the "Cinderella complex" in
American women; this book described it in detail thirty or forty years ago.
GENERATION is one of those "here's everything wrong with modern
civilization" books; it is impossible to read it without becoming
*extremely* angry.

I suggest you all go out to your used bookstores and see if you can't find
something by Philip Wylie.  Damn' good stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 88 17:01:13 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The End of the Dream/Wylie

laura@VAX.DARPA.MIL
>Does anybody remember a book called The End Of The Dream?  It was
>about eco-collapse and its attendant horrors

I wasn't wild about this book.  Philip Wylie has written some of my
favorite books, and has (had?) a talent for combining message with good
reading.  This book, however, was all message -- far too heavy-handed.

(Wylie's genius was writing books that were years ahead of his time when he
wrote them and are years behind the times now.  Read and enjoy his books,
but pay attention to the date of publication.  His writings include:

"Gladiator" -- a predecessor and probable inspiration for Superman 
"The Disappearance" -- half the world's population suddenly
   disappears - all of the same gender 
"Tomorrow" -- the book on which "The Day After" seems to have been
   based
"When Worlds Collide" -- (with Edwin Balmer) One of the all-time
   great end-of-the-world books
"Generation of Vipers" -- nonfiction.  A look at American society
   which was shocking and ahead of its time in the fifties, passe by
   the end of the sixties.  Well, you get the idea.)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 88 23:55:55 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.edu (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: The End of the Dream/Wylie

 This is a reprint of some comments I made a few years ago:

	Comments While Reading Philip Wylie's THE END OF THE DREAM
				 DAW, 1972
		      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     If I am reading a really good science fiction story, I am willing to
suspend my disbelief and go where the author wants to take me.  Almost all
science fiction requires some suspension of disbelief and it comes as a
real surprise when you find a story that doesn't.  One book that really
doesn't is Philip Wylie's THE END OF THE DREAM.  What prompted me to read
the book was a feeling of DEJA VU following hearing about a firestorm in
Mexico City and a massive chemical disaster in India soon after.  I'd read
about the first quarter of THE END OF THE DREAM in 1972 and all of a sudden
the news sounded like chapters out of the book.
     So I am re-reading THE END OF THE DREAM, a novel about the end of the
world through environmental disasters.  My first reaction is that people
who claim that Orwell was right "on target" with 1984 should read this
novel to find out what "on target" really means.  It is eerie how close
some sections of this book reflect events that have occurred since it was
written.  Wylie describes a toxic chemical firestorm in New York City.  Not
quite accurate enough to make it history, but pretty close to a number of
events that have happened.  There have been toxic fires near New York and,
of course, the Mexico City firestorm.  Wylie describes how addicted we are
to material goods, so while environmentalism has waves of popularity, they
die down and we go back to poisoning the environment.  That's a direct hit.
He has descriptions of industry paying for "ubiquitous displays of the
American future as purged of pollution...  [The displays] did not say or
much reveal how the 'glory of natural America' would be recovered, or who
would do it, where the money would come from or what sacrifices and
hardships would accrue to any such attempt.  It merely displayed the FAITS
ACCOMPLIS, everywhere, clear air, clean rivers, and deserts made green,
with the endlessly hammered slogan, 'America CAN!  America WILL!'"  I
suppose there was a little of that even before this novel was written, but
I remember seeing just what Wylie was describing on Detroit TV five or six
years after he described it.
     Wylie writes with an incredible authenticity and a feel for public
psychology.  The above was from the last chapter I read.  Wylie starts the
current chapter I am reading talking about the destruction of a certain
part of the potato crop and how the public only understands it in terms of
a shortage of potato chips.  Even as I am writing this, it is occurring to
me that the way I and most other people I know look at the citrus cancre is
"what is it going to do to the price of orange juice?"
     I seem to remember some book being sold with the tag line "Read it
while it is still science fiction!"  For THE END OF THE DREAM, I can't help
but feel I'm too late.
     Postscript: The above was written when I was about a third the way
through the book.  I stand by my assessment, though as the story extends
further into the future, some of what it describes becomes a little more
far-fetched. No more far-fetched than any number of good SF novels, but
still a little less likely than the first part.  I particularly liked the
way Wylie closed the novel.  It was one of the best pieces of science
ficiton I have read in quite a while.  It is still in print from DAW, I
think.  Go for it.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 88 16:52:39 GMT
From: mink@cfa.harvard.edu (Doug Mink)
Subject: Re: The End of the Dream/Wylie

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) says:
>I wasn't wild about this book [The End of the Dream].  Philip Wylie has
>written some of my favorite books, and has (had?) a talent for combining
>message with good reading.  This book, however, was all message -- far too
>heavy-handed.

I thought it was pretty extreme at the time it was written (but not TOO
extreme).  Events, such as the Ohio River oil slick and other water supply
contamination events, have shown Wyle to be prescient in predicting
environmental disasters.

>(Wylie's genius was writing books that were years ahead of his time when
>he wrote them and are years behind the times now.  Read and enjoy his
>books, but pay attention to the date of publication.  His writings include
> "Gladiator" -- a predecessor and probable inspiration for Superman
> "The Disappearance" -- half the world's population suddenly
>    disappears

The interesting thing about this book is that it tells both what happens in
the men's world without women and the women's world without men.  It
remains interesting even today.

> "Tomorrow" -- the book on which "The Day After" seems to have been
>    based
> "When Worlds Collide" -- (with Edwin Balmer) One of the all-time 
>    great end-of-the-world books

There is also a sequel, "After Worlds Collide," about the resulting
settlement of a new world.  WWC was made into a movie.

Doug Mink
mink@cfa.harvard.edu
{ihnp4|seismo}!harvard!cfa!mink

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 11:28:31 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@rutgers.edu (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust fantasy

>While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone know of
>any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy?

Try _World_Enough_and_Time_, and it's sequel _Time's_Dark_Laughter_.  I
think the author's name is James Kahn.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 00:18:29 GMT
From: michaelm@vax.3com.com (Michael McNeil)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust fantasy

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>While I'm here, I wish to repeat an earlier question: does anyone know of
>>any other explicitly post-holocaust fantasy?
>Try _World_Enough_and_Time_, and it's sequel _Time's_Dark_Laughter_.  I
>think the author's name is James Kahn.

I don't know if you include science fiction when you ask for fantasy, but
my all-time favorite in this genre is *Re-Birth* by John Wyndham.  I'm also
quite fond of the *Maurai* series (including the collection *Maurai and
Kith* and the novel *Orion Shall Rise*) by Poul Anderson.

Michael McNeil
3Com Corporation
Santa Clara, California
{hplabs|fortune|ihnp4|allegra|glacier|olhqma}!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jan 88 20:25:32 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@rutgers.edu (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Dotty science in SF

> quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale)
>>A wonderful howler by someone who presumably never set foot in the
>>southern hemisphere: in Edgar Pangborn's story "The Red Hills of Summer"
>>there is the offhand statement "Prevailing winds in the southern
>>hemisphere blew westward as on Earth".
> I remember a short story about a spaceship (probably a ramjet) passing
> through the Solar system. The ship is going at 99.999.... % of c, [...]
> the Earth just moved ten feet to the north, pulled by the powerful
> gravitational attraction of the spaceship !

The all-time dottiest I've ever encountered is, as I've mentioned before,
_The_Doomsday_Effect_ by Thomas Wren.  Purported to be "hard" SF, it
manages to get simple orbital mechanics wrong, makes ludicrous statements
about the density of the asteroid belt, has expelled gasses be "blown back"
from an object's extreme velocity... in free fall in a vacuum mind you...
as well as managing to get many elementary points about black holes and
antimatter so wrong as to boggle the mind.  Jim Baen said it "Reads like a
cross between Hogan and Heinlein.", which is probably the worst insult
either of those gentlemen will ever receive.

But a point related to Kai's above is found in _The_Jupiter_Theft_, by
Iforgetwho.  Gas-giant planets are moved by having a small spacecraft
"orbit" at faster and faster superorbital speeds until relativistic effects
make it massive enough to give significant acceleration to the whole
planet.  Then, the spacecraft moves the center of it's "orbit" away from
the planet, which then falls after the spaceprobe.  Matter is siphoned from
the planet to use for reaction mass and energy source for this process.
Sigh.  But at least this was only a flaw in an otherwise quite-OK book.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jan 88 01:03:59 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Dotty science in SF

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:

> But a point related to Kai's above is found in _The_Jupiter_Theft_, by
> Iforgetwho.  Gas-giant planets are moved by having a small spacecraft

Donald Moffat.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 88 11:24:15 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Dotty science in SF

Let me add one of the silliest books I have read.

It is called "Sold for a spaceship", I can't remember the author. Again,
claiming to be hard SF it tells the story of a group of people who are the
few survivors of some word wide catastrophe. They dig into the ground and
freeze themselves in suspended animation until the surface has recovered.
Obligatory objects crumbling to dust when touched after they wake up. Most
don't survive the long sleep, but those that do start to re-build.

Then things get silly.

They invent a new cold-combustion internal combustion engine which burns
fuel without giving out any heat. This makes it MUCH more efficient,
because most of the energy in the fuel used in the old type of engine is
converted to heat. it also makes fuel go further. They are able to do this
because no-one is around (i.e. oil companies) to suppress the new
discoveries which benefit the environment.

Then things get even sillier.

A stranger walks into town. He is from the main hibernation fleet in deep
space. He informs them that the people on the ground were the guinea pigs
to test the process, and that now that civilisation was being set up again,
the space hibernators (Most of them survived) would take over the running
of things. He then turns red, develops a high fever, a red resh, and drops
dead.

It turns out, that the people who were in hibernation have "adapted" to the
drasticaly changed conditions (and new bacteria and viruses) on earth, but
those in the spaceships haven't and so can never return to earth again.

end of story.

The book is well-enough written to be readable but makes such notably
ludicrous mistakes that I can still remember nearly twenty years after
reading it.

Bob

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 29 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:

			  Films - Dune (9 msgs) &
                                  Making SF Movies (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 17:27:30 GMT
From: barth@ihlpl.att.com (BARTH RICHARDS)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (John L McKernan) writes:
>>In my opinion the fundamental problem with the movie _Dune_ is that...
>>there is no attempt to fit the story to the medium, the movie is a hash
>>of loosely connected episodes.
>
>I think that about nails it. They treated the novel as a screenplay that
>was too long for one movie so they just chopped parts indescriminantly and
>took a few chapters and slapped 'em straight onto the screen. No brains
>involved, no effort to make up for the loss due to the things a movie
>cannot do that a book can by employing techniques that are uniquely a part
>of the art of filmmaking. A bad translation, and a partial one at that.
>
>Also, I found that when I went to see the movie, there were about 4 of us
>who had read the book and one poor guy who hadn't. Throughout the movie he
>had absolutely NO idea what was going on unless we explained it to him,
>and of course when we got to the rain at the end, NONE of us had any idea
>what was going on.

Unfortunately, that was only half the problem.

It's bad enough that the film makers left out huge chunks of the plot and
mechanically transfered the few parts they left in, but, to make it
absolutely clear that the people responsible for this piece of celluloid
excement didn't have two brain cells to rub together or the slightest
understanding of the story, they added parts that had *nothing whatsoever
to do with the story*!

Rain, weirding modules, telepathy, specialists who maintain and nurture the
pustulent sores on the Baron Harkonnen's face, a suspensor suit that allows
the Baron to fly, heart plugs....

ZEUS ABOVE AND PLUTO BELOW!!!

Instead of using the reams of fantastic material from the book that were
left out, they added cartloads of absurd bullshit!

I, and others, have said this many times before and I will say it again:

IGNORE THIS PUTRESCENT HEAP OF CINEMATIC SEWAGE AND READ THE BOOK!!

Barth Richards
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
!ihnp4!ihlpl!barth

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 19:22:23 GMT
From: grgurich@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Matthew Grgurich)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Also, I found that when I went to see the movie, there were about 4 of us
>who had read the book and one poor guy who hadn't. Throughout the movie he
>had absolutely NO idea what was going on unless we explained it to him,
>and of course when we got to the rain at the end, NONE of us had any idea
>what was going on.

The thing with the rain at the end was an extremely poor attempt to apply
some sort of unifying monumental Spielberg ending to a mediocre-at-best
movie that didn't deserve it. It seems to me that the rain was the
script-writer (If you can even call them that) trying to extrapolate what
would happen in the future of DUNE without bothering to read the books. He
really messed up.

Matt Grgurich

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 88 12:25:04 GMT
From: sysop@stech.uucp (Jan Harrington)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Also, I found that when I went to see the movie, there were about 4 of us
>who had read the book and one poor guy who hadn't. Throughout the movie
>he had absolutely NO idea what was going on unless we explained it to
>him, and of course when we got to the rain at the end, NONE of us had any
>idea what was going on.

My understanding is that they shot about 5 hours worth of film, but had to
pare it down to standard theater length.  Does anyone know what happened to
the cuttings?  Are there any plans to release the full length version to
the home video market?  I suspect that if we had all the footage, the film
would be truer to the book and have a lot more continuity, length
nothwithstanding.

Jan Harrington
Scholastech Telecommunications
ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop
allegra!stech!sysop

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 88 01:10:09 GMT
From: rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

>> no one I know liked it...
>
>I didn't either the first time I saw it, but when I managed to

I know a lot of people who didn't like the film because it didn't follow
the books exactly, or didn't include a lot from the books.  Valid.  I also
know a lot of people who did like the film for exactly the same reasons.
Also valid.

However, Frank Herbert, by his own admission, states that this screenplay
was not the best he was presented with, but was the most workable, and
included the important points.  He was also on the set for much of the
filming as observer and consultant, and he was overall pleased with the
result.  If the author is pleased ...

However, one can still dislike the film if one would like, of course.  :-)

Robert J. Granvin
2701 West 43rd Street
Minneapolis, MN 55410
rjg@sialis.mn.org
...ihnp4!bungia!sialis!rjg
...uunet!rosevax!ems!sialis!rjg 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 05:24:46 GMT
From: jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

> Rain, wierding modules, telepathy, specialists who maintain and nurture
> the pustulent sores on the Baron Harkonnen's face, a suspensor suit that
> allows the Baron to fly, heart plugs....
> 
> Instead of using the reams of fantastic material from the book that were
> left out, they added cartloads of absurd bullshit!

Now now now... I thought the rain at the end was a nice cinematic touch
even if it was completely stupid.

Also be fair.  The Baron didn't *really* fly... he just sort of hovered a
bit ;-)... which wasn't too out of line considering he needed the supensor
suit to keep all that flab off the ground.  From the book I envisioned a
much larger Baron though.

Yeh... Dune the Movie was a true disaster.  Probably the biggest in SF
movie history come to think of it.  Such a waste.  Don't get yourself bent
out of shape over it.  Lots of us read the book.

John T. Nelson
Advanced Decision Systems	
1500 Wilson Blvd #512
Arlington, VA 22209-2401
(703) 243-1611
UUCP: sun!sundc!potomac!jtn
Internet:  jtn@potomac.ads.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 21:31:02 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

grgurich@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Matthew Grgurich) writes:
> The thing with the rain at the end was an extremely poor attempt to apply
> some sort of unifying monumental Spielberg ending to a mediocre-at-best
> movie that didn't deserve it. It seems to me that the rain was the
> script-writer (If you can even call them that) trying to extrapolate what
> would happen in the future of DUNE without bothering to read the books.
> He really messed up.

And the mess-up was even worse than that: the movie had removed almost all
of the subplot involving the Fremen attempt at ecological engineering, so
that from the movie there was no idea that anybody was *trying* to
"improve" the climate in order to get it to rain on Dune.  The rain comes,
therefore, as a total non-sequitur, as do so many of the events in this
butchery of a movie.  Pfaugh.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 16:02:42 GMT
From: gadfly@ihlpa.att.com 
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

barth@ihlpl.ATT.COM (BARTH RICHARDS) writes:
> [Lots of bad things about the movie "Dune", all justified]
> 
> IGNORE THIS PUTRESCENT HEAP OF CINEMATIC SEWAGE AND READ THE BOOK!!

But Herbert was involved in the production and liked the result.  Makes you
wonder if he even wrote the book.  Especially since the sequels are so
different and so bad.  My own theory (well, it came up in a discussion a
while back) is that he wrote only the sequels.  Perhaps he won the "Dune"
manuscript in a poker game.  Or stole it.

Ken Perlow
(312)979-8042
ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 15:52:09 GMT
From: dan@speedy.wisc.edu (Dan Frank)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Gadfly) writes:
>Makes you wonder if he even wrote the book.  Especially since the sequels
>are so different and so bad.  My own theory (well, it came up in a
>discussion a while back) is that he wrote only the sequels.  Perhaps he
>won the "Dune" manuscript in a poker game.  Or stole it.

   Actually, if you read "Dune" carefully, it appears that Herbert
originally intended it to be about something quite different.  The
unrealized subplots about the "planetary ecologist" and fremen society, as
well as the interesting stuff about galactic politics, give way to the
religious mysticism in a very jarring way.  I think Herbert got weird about
half way through the book, and was never the same.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 13:32:32 GMT
From: wes@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

dan@speedy.wisc.edu (Dan Frank) writes:
>    Actually, if you read "Dune" carefully, it appears that Herbert
> originally intended it to be about something quite different.  The
> unrealized subplots about the "planetary ecologist" and fremen society,
> as well as the interesting stuff about galactic politics, give way to the
> religious mysticism in a very jarring way.  I think Herbert got weird
> about half way through the book, and was never the same.
> 

Well, one could make the argument <especially after reading the entire
series of books 8^) > that Herbert had a 'prequel' in mind, much like the
Star Wars series.  I can certainly imagine a book setting up the
birth/maturation of the Fremen; there were certainly enough hints dropped
about the old Fremen colonies on Bela Teguese, Poritrin and Salusa
Secundus.  The cataclysmic discovery of the 'poison drug' to create
Reverend Mothers could almost be the focal point of the prequel; it opened
the door for the Bene Gesserit inclusion in the Lisan al-Gaib myth.

For those of you interested in the continuation of the Dune saga after the
initial volume, the titles (in order) are:

   Dune Messiah
   Children of Dune
   God Emperor of Dune
   Heretics of Dune
   Chapterhouse Dune

I recommend them all, especially 'God Emperor'.  

Wes Morgan
wes@engr.uky.edu
wes%ukecc.uucp@ukma
...cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!wes

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 88 05:04:23 GMT
From: mikevp@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Attempts at Science Fiction movies.

The problem with Dune, and with a whole lot of other Hollywood attempts at
science fiction, is that they are done by people with little or no
familiarity with science fiction ("Yeah, I know all about sci-fi.  I used
to watch Rocky Jones, Space Ranger.") and even less knowledge of science.
Worse, they have the attitude that "None of this has to make any sense,
because this is Sci-Fi."  And it shows.  Why did the humanoid Guild
characters have this oozing crack in their heads?  Because it was weird,
and to a Hollywood type, nonsensical weirdness makes it "Sci-Fie".
Sigh-Fie.

There were some good things in the Dune movie, too.  One of the best, I
think was "Aliens".  Even the otherwise great movie "2001" had a bad case
of the "Sci-Fi doesn't have to make sense" attitude, though in that case it
did make sense if you knew what was supposed to be going on, but the
screenplay didn't give you a whole lot of help.

My all-time personal favorites: "The Day The Earth Stood Still", "Forbidden
Planet", "2001", "Aliens", and "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan".  STII was
not just far and away the best ST movie, but it was good SF, and a good
movie by any standards.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 06:19:51 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Attempts at Science Fiction movies.

finesse@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Amit Malhotra) writes:
>But the real problem exists with the translation of the words to the
>screen.  It is difficult first to develop a coherent storyline that both
>adheres to the original and also fits into 2 hrs enough to make sense; and
>then to put the ideas down on paper. Often when one is dealing with a
>megablockbuster of a book, that becomes the impossible task (DUNE).

I'll second this, although I haven't had the fortune to be involved in
filmmaking myself.  I think that anyone who expects a movie to bear more
than a certain measure of resemblance to an original book (not that any
such people inhabit the net, and not that I'm going to delineate that
measure) is either living in la-la land or reading some very unusual books.
Film is obviously a different medium (this is obvious to me) and has
different properties, and in converting a work from one medium to another
it's probably more important to get the more entrenched aspects right, such
as the mood and the thematic relations, and then see what can be salvaged
from the plot.  A model of this, I think, would be Blade Runner (yes, I
know this has been beat to death) - here, no attempt was made the conform
every detail to that of the book.  Some of the very important aspects of
the book were omitted in the film, while some new ones cropped up.
Everyone who moans at the loss or distortion of their favorite subplot or
character should try to see the movie as a piece of its own, a tribute to
the original, not as a gappy, error-riddled translation.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 18:39:51 GMT
From: reiher@granite.jpl.nasa.gov (Reiher)
Subject: Re: Attempts at Science Fiction movies.

The canonical model of the right way to adapt a well-loved book into a film
is "Gone With The Wind".  The film version satisfied almost all of the
readers of the book, and, arguably, the film is a better film than the book
was a good book.  Of course, "Gone With the Wind" was an extraordinary
case, but the basic principles used in converting it to a film still apply.

David O. Selznick, the producer of "Gone With the Wind" (hereafter GWTW),
had, in fact, tremendous success in adapting novels into films.  His
versions of "David Copperfield", "Tom Sawyer", and "Rebecca" are all
excellent films that capture the spirit of their sources.  Selznick had a
fundamental rule for adaptations - audiences will understand if you leave
things out, but they will not forgive putting in extraneous material.  You
can cut scenes, and characters.  You can merge characters.  But do not put
in your own new, wonderful ideas.  By and large, his adaptations of books
followed this rule.  (I've never read "Rebecca", but I understand that some
fairly large changes were made in *that* adaptation.)

(And here is one of the great problems with the film version of "Dune" - I
think that what most of the book's readers minded most was intrusive
nonsense like the wierding modules, and the rainstorm at the end.)

Selznick's second principle was to use as much material directly from the
book as possible.  Much of the dialog in GWTW was taken directly from the
novel, and he had the screenwriters do much the same on his other
adaptations.  The basic construction of the films matched that of the
books.  Of course, if the book was long and complex, matching its
construction meant that you would have a long movie.  But Selznick had no
fear of long movies.  If he felt he needed three hours to tell the story,
he took three hours.  The box office totals usually validated his approach.

Any producer who cares about the film he's making can follow these
principles.  Unfortunately, doing so isn't enough.  If you follow these
rules, you may wind up with a faithful, but uninspired, result.  There is,
you see, a third important principle that Selznick used: scrupulous care,
and the application of considerable talent and energy.  Selznick may have
been the greatest movie producer who ever lived, and he always got the best
talent available to write his films, to direct them, to design them, to act
in them, to score them, and to edit them.  He rode close rein over the
whole effort, keeping almost minute track of the details of the film.
While other producers could try to do the same, few, if any, have
Selznick's taste and talent, and his instinctive feel for cinema.

Which boils down to the expectation that most film adaptations will,
indeed, be disappointments.

Of course, another approach is to treat the original work as a starting
point - keep some of the basics, but play around with it in order to make
the film you want, rather than the film that mimics the book.  People in
theater have been doing this for years - Kabuki Macbeth, Wilde as
slapstick, "A Midsummer Night's Dream" on trapezes, etc.  Film, being a
younger medium, hasn't tried this approach too often, though the recent
Godard "King Lear" sounds like it does, as did Kurasawa's Lear, "Ran".  The
problem with this approach is that, unless you are incredibly talented, you
make a rotten movie and piss off everyone who liked the original work.

Peter Reiher
reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 29 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Benford & Brust (2 msgs) & Card &
                         Cook & Crowley & Delany & Garrett & 
                         Haldeman (2 msgs) & Heitland &
                         Kurtz

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 88 07:52:08 GMT
From: soren@reed.uucp (Hey Kids!!  Comics!!)
Subject: Re: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>It's a book about scientists who are, first and most importantly, people.
>>People who have real lives, real problems, and real deficiencies.  In
>>spite of that, they do their best.  If that conflicts with your ideal
>>scientist image, then perhaps you might give some thought to the
>>proposition that it is your image which is faulty.
>Nay, the characters in the book are not that deep. And my "ideal scientist
>image" is not different from my "ideal person image."

Hmm, is there an objective criterion as to how "deep", or "multi-
dimensional" characters are?  Otherwise, this is just going to degenerate
into name-calling.  Personally, I was quite impressed by the
characterization.  Peterson, especially impressed me.  Seldom does one see
such a complete and total asshole as he drawn so humanly.  I agree that the
prose was less than inspiring at times, and the sheer volume of research he
obviously did got kind of wearying (passages on the lines of "he passed the
'61 chevy as the Beach Boys, whose new song was currently number one,
played on the radio and the crowd from the baseball game where the Dodgers
had beat the mets 4-3 slowed up traffic on the Santa Monica freeway which
had just been finished").

Soren F Petersen
!tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 01:15:29 GMT
From: eilian@eddie.mit.edu (Adina Adler)
Subject: Taltos, by Steven Brust, is out!

The fourth book about Vlad Taltos is now available.  Paperback, Ace books,
181 pages.  This one's earlier in chronological order than all of the
others -- when it opens, he hasn't met either Morrolan or Sethra.

There's one thing that strikes me as odd.  The soul-killing weapons are
here referred to as "Morganti", where I think I remember the name as being
"Morganthi" previously.  Have to check when I get home.  I'm not reviewing
this now, as I'm only on page 39.

For people who haven't read any of these before: think of these as books
about a medieval Mafia boss/hit-man.  Chronological order is now Taltos,
Yendi, Jhereg, Teckla (though the prologue to Jhereg is earlier than any of
these).  Vlad is a human (called "Easterner") living in a country of people
whom he calls "Dragaeran" and who call themselves human.  There's magic and
sorcery, swordfights, lots of scheming, and a generally sort of grimy
atmosphere.  I'm not sure why I like this -- the first time through I kept
thinking "This guy's an assassin.  Blecch." but the second and following
times I just enjoyed the story and writing.  The characters didn't change
too much in the first two books but in the third, Teckla, various people
started pointing out to Vlad that being an assassin wasn't the most
wonderful job in the universe and maybe he should think of a change.  The
return to Vlad as assassin in this book may be because Teckla didn't get a
good reception (I really don't know) or it may just be that many people
begged Brust for the story of how Vlad walked the Paths of the Dead
(referred to several times in the earlier books) and he finally gave in. I
really liked Teckla, and I'm always happy to find another book by Steven
Brust.  Flames, anyone?

Adina Adler
eilian@eddie.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 16:20:25 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Taltos

The latest prequel to "Jhereg" is out.  Still going back in time, we
finally get the story of what happened when Vlad walked the paths of the
dead.

Readers who have been enjoying the series so far will want to get this
book.  If you haven't read the others, this isn't a good place to start.

The book looks short.  In reality it is a *very* short book with padding.
When Brust followed "Jhereg" and "Yendi" with "Teckla", he went from
writing stories that seem to have come from a light-hearted fantasy
role-playing game to writing more seriously about an assassin who is
outgrowing the idea that assassination is just a game.  Some readers
appreciated that and some didn't.

In "Taltos" the two kinds of writing sit side by side, in an uncomfortable
juxtaposition.  The main story concerns Vlad's first meeting with his
Dragon friends (the story is in several small ways inconsistent with
statements made in previous books, but not seriously so) and his trip
through the Paths of the Dead.  It's not as humorous as the earlier works,
but it has its moments.  (We find out that a portion of the Paths may be
described as "a twisty maze of little passages all the same" -- amazing how
many of us have been to hell and back :-) By and large, however, though it
is a story of Vlad Taltos when he was even younger than he was in "Jhereg"
and "Yendi", it seems as if it is being told by the older and much more
tired Taltos -- it has none of the naive elan of the earlier books.

Interspersed throughout this story are flashbacks to Vlad's childhood and
youth.  These are interesting to readers of the series, but with one single
exception have nothing whatsoever to do with the main story and add nothing
to it.

There's an excellent book struggling to get out of "Taltos", but we aren't
going to see it.  If you've enjoyed the earlier Taltos books, expect some
decent light reading from this one.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 07:34:05 GMT
From: merchie@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Anthony Wiggins)
Subject: Re: Enders Game Sequel?

For those that have read Ender's Game, you may find Speaker of the Dead
enjoyable.  However, I must warn you that the style is completely
different, so if you go into the second sequel with expectations of the
kind of "adventure" you found in Ender's Game, you're likely to be
disappointed.
 
Instead, read this as if it were a new book.  There are many aspects in
this sequel which were only mentioned in Ender's Game.
 
Now for the killer rumour: I have been told that there is a THIRD sequel to
this series, ironically titled "The Third".  Supposedly still in hardcover,
this book is supposed to be winding its way slowly to the paperback
clusters.  If anyone can shine intelligent life on this rumour, it would be
greatly appreciated.
 
Yours in waiting,
 
Tony

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 05:52:40 GMT
From: jacob@renoir.berkeley.edu (Jacob Butcher)
Subject: Glen Cook's Dread Empire Series

I recently read (and enjoyed) the first 3 books in Glen Cook's Dread Empire
series, thinking it was a trilogy. Well, it isn't, and I'm having trouble
determining what other books I should read. I have found at least 2 other
books in print which call themselves part of this series, and there may be
others. To further complicate things, I found another book whose title I
forget which seems to be set in the same universe but use one of the
villains as a protagonist. And is part of a series as well...

So, could anyone who knows the books relating to this series and the order
in which they should be read drop me a line? Thanks in advance.

jacob@renoir.Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 18:57:42 GMT
From: jojo@astroatc.uucp (Jon Wesener)
Subject: aegypt's ending?

   I finished Aegypt recently, and while discussing it with a friend,
brought up some points I can't quite figure in.

   There are some spoilers so if you haven't read it, don't continue
reading this.

   The end of the of the story has the main character deciding that the
magic of the past left with copernicus and Bruno.  And yet, we watch Beau
astral projecting.  Is this to say the magic hasn't gone away, its just
changed?  Is Beau the real aegyptian while Pierce isn't?  I found the story
more than a little confusing, especially the way characters were brought
into the story and than left hanging and not really developed into the
story.  Rosie's, spofford, beau, val, The 2nd rosie and the 1st rosie's
husband are examples...  That and the fact that they never went into that
broken down castle, even though they mention it quite a few times bummed me
out.  I did like the book, though.

   Anyone else whose read the book want to interpret some of this stuff?

Jon Wesener
{seismo|harvard|ihnp4}!{uwvax|cs.wisc.edu}!astroatc!jojo

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 88 23:36:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: new Delany is out

Samuel Delany's new autobiography, _The Motion of Light in Water: Sex and
Science Fiction Writing in the East Village 1957-1964_ (the years may be
wrong), is in the stores.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 05:47:04 GMT
From: morganc@speedy.cs.wisc.edu (Morgan Clark)
Subject: New Lord Darcy book - is it any good?

I was wandering around in a bookstore recently and I noticed a new Lord
Darcy book (using Randall Garrett's (sp?) character but not written by
him).  Has anyone read it, and is it good? How does it compare to the books
Garrett wrote?

Morgan Clark
morganc@poona.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 88 09:04:45 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: story request

JEREMY@brownvm.BITNET (Jeremy Bornstein) writes:
>What is the name of the story which has aliens saying things like the
>following by way of apology: "My head explodes.  Wild beasts eat me alive.
>Unsightly green ichor oozes from my bones and gives disease to millions.
>Oh, the shame."

"!Tangled Web" (possibly a longer name) by Joe Haldeman.  It's in his
"Dealing in Futures" collection.

The !Tang really have a way with words, don't they?

malc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 88 19:25:24 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Joe Haldeman

LIZ@oz.ai.mit.EDU ("Liz A. Highleyman") writes:
>My favorite story by the author whose new works are always at the top of
>my "read these first" list.  Two reasons I like this story a lot: it has
>aliens who *think* alien.  The above quote is an example -- it's a !Tang
>politely saying, "I'm sorry."

Incidentally, Haldeman's interest in the psychology of his characters is
one of the things that sets him apart from other SF writers.  This
contrasts him with certain other writers, who go to great lengths to create
aliens who are the logical result of some unearthly evolution -- and then
have them talk like seniors at Beverly Hills High.

The other reason I like this story so much is that it's damned funny, in a
dark sort of way.  (All Haldeman stories have a dark side to them.)  It's
also very complicated.  Pay careful attention to the plot, or you might
lose your feet!

>I'm fairly sure this story was published elsewhere as well (perhaps
>``Omni'').  I'll take this opportunity to make a plug for Haldeman's work
>in general.  His humor and social awareness make for very enjoyable
>reading!

It was Analog.  I remember it well, because it was one of the last SF
magazine I bought before it became obvious that the SF Mag was just about
dead.  (Which is a depressing thought, especially in this context: a lot of
good SF writers, including Haldeman, probably would never have found their
audience without those publications.  One wonders what intriguing short
stories are languishing in some 100-copy fanzine or sitting unpublished on
a floppy.)

I have to comment on Haldeman's "social awareness".  I find some of his
social views intriguing, others naive.  (I'll bet that's exactly what he'd
say about my opinions.)  Anyway, I think one of the appeals of SF is that
it makes unusual viewpoints accessible to everybody.  For example, I enjoy
Jerry Pournelle's fiction, but *cannot* read his political essays, even
though the former is usually a dramatization of the latter.

Another good example is Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" -- a
favorite among campus leftists, despite its explicit and extreme
Libertarianism.

One last note on Haldeman: many of his stories rather a lot of violence.  I
marked up my copy of "Dealing in Futures" for the benefit of queasy people
who borrow it, and more than half earned the label "extremely gruesome".
But the anthology is worth reading in any case, if only for Haldeman's
comments on the art of writing.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 88 20:06:41 GMT
From: billw@felix.uucp (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: Review: THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. BOOK

			The Man from U.N.C.L.E Book
			     by John Heitland
		      Reviewed by William Weinberger

Here is a must-have book for any fan of THE MAN FROM UNCLE.  In it, Jon
Heitland details the origins, success and eventual cancellation of this
popular TV series.  Through numerous interviews with the cast, crew and
writers, the reader gets a genuine feel for what the show was intended to
be, what it took to get it on the air and make it successful, and its
affect on television in the mid-1960's.

This book is different from a similar book, THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, in a
couple of ways.  First, being written several years after the fact, it
loses a little of the first person feel of TMOST.  But it still reflects
the enthusiasm of the series' creators and fans.  Second, being written
several years after the fact, it can reveal a somewhat greater historical
perspective then TMOST could.  Both are fascinating reading.  Both deserve
a spot on the shelf of anybody interested in 1960's television.

Few books are perfect.  This one suffers from name-itis.  After a while you
lose track of who's who as Mr. Heitland mentions just about everybody
involved in UNCLE, and what they did before. and what they've done since.
I was also a little disappointed that the chapter on UNCLE merchandise
didn't go into more detail on exactly what was produced and what is truly
collectable (what ever happened to *my* UNCLE special, or did I even have
one?).

THE MAN FROM UNCLE BOOK is liberally sprinkled with publicity photos,
personal photos and photos of fan collections.  Of course, it includes an
episode guide (with full credits, including THE GIRL FROM UNCLE), a list of
UNCLE books, magazines and comic books from the '60s, and a complete index.

The Man from U.N.C.L.E. Book by Jon Heitland (1987, St. Martin's Press, New
York, NY, 271 pages, trade paperback) [ISBN 0-312-00052-9]
 
STAR TREK fans take note:

 Harlan Ellison is given writer's credit on two Man from UNCLE episodes and
 claims rewrite credit for several more.

 Norman Felton, the Executive Producer, was previously involved with THE
 LIEUTENANT, for which Gene Roddenberry was producer.  Other veterans of
 THE LIEUTENANT include Robert Vaughn, and several of the writers and crew.

 Everyone knows by now that William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy both guested
 on UNCLE (The Project Strigas Affair), but skimming the UNCLE episode
 guide reveals several other Star Trek players.  Ricardo Montalban (twice),
 Roger C. Carmel, Joan Collins, and Kim Darby were also on UNCLE (I'm sure
 there were more, but I didn't really want to do a complete cross-
 reference).

 Not from Star Trek but interesting to note: Robert Culp, Carroll O'Connor,
 Kurt Russell, June Lockhart, Barbara Feldon (agent 99), Martin Landau,
 Jack Lord and many other recognizables appeared on UNCLE.

Bill Weinberger
FileNet Corporation
UUCP: hplabs!felix!billw]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 01:39:37 GMT
From: eilian@EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Adina Adler)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz books

rce229@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
>Does anyone know what (and when) is upcoming from Katherine Kurtz, in the
>Deryni universe or otherwise?

I don't know when, but I know something about what.  She's working on a
sort-of sequel to Lammas Night, set around now (I think).  The sort-of is
because it's really just on a similar theme (magic in the real world) with
maybe one character carrying over.

Now for the good stuff: Katherine loves the Deryni world and has every
intention of writing many more books set there.  She's a real joy at
conventions -- she's friendly and will talk about Deryni stuff for hours.
She's mentioned plans for two trilogies and I think the one that's coming
out next will immediately follow "Camber the Heretic".  The only title I
can remember is for the second book: "Javan's Year".  She's also working on
a Young Morgan trilogy (I'm sure you can guess the subject of that one) and
I'm sure that she'll follow up on the latest Kelson stuff eventually.

Katherine said that she has gotten the hang of writing one novel a year
plus incidental stuff, but I don't know what kind of breaks she plans on
taking between series.  Also, she moved to Ireland about a year or two ago,
and considering the usual lag in publishing books, this is about the time
when a gap would appear.

Katherine Kurtz can usually be found at Darkovercon (Thanksgiving weekend;
Wilmington, Delaware) but please don't rely on this - write to the
Darkovercon people.  If you can't find the address, e-mail to me.

Enjoy.

Adina Adler
eilian@eddie.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 29 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Conventions (4 msgs) &
                                  Obituaries & Lancelot &
                                  Hack Writers (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 07:26:57 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Gaylaxicon '88: Update

Here's the latest update on Gaylaxicon '88:

It gives me great pleasure to announce that J. F. Rivkin has agreed to be
our guest of honor.  She is the author of Silverglass and Web of Wind, a
series of fantasy-adventure novels with a strong, sword-wielding woman as
the hero.  Silverglass was described by Jessica Amanda Salmonson as
"Rousing adventure by, for, and about women."  J. F. Rivkin is currently
working on a third book in the series.  We look forward to having her as
our guest.

A reminder: the membership rates for Gaylaxicon '88 go up after Feb 29,
1988.  So get your membership in soon.  Also, we are curently more than 50%
of the way towards our break-even point.  Given the number of
procrastinators out there, I fully expect that we will have to turn some
people away, and book others into an overflow guest house.  However, we
will sleep easier if we can make our break-even point early, so please help
us out by not delaying.

Our room rates have finally been set.  In case you've forgotten, Gaylaxicon
'88 will be at the Gifford House, in Provincetown, MA, the weekend of June
4, 1988.

To sign up for Gaylaxicon '88, write to The Gaylaxians, P. O. Box 1051,
Back Bay Annex, Boston, MA, 02117.  Feel free to contact us at that address
for more information about Gaylaxicon '88, The Gaylaxians, or The Gaylactic
Network (an international, non-electronic network).  Or look for our
frequent listings in the GCN calendar.  Or contact me via email.

Erich Rickheit,KSC
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit           

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 09:14:00 GMT
From: U00254@hasara5.bitnet ("Jacqueline Cote")
Subject: WorldCon 1990

IMPORTANT

ConFiction --- WorldCon 1990 --- The Hague, The Netherlands, now has an
OFFICIAL e-mail address.

The address :

BITNET : U00254@HASARA5
UUCP   : mcvax!hasara5.bitnet!u00254
DECNET : SARA5::U00254
ARPA   : U00254@HASARA5.BITNET    or : U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@MCVAX.CWI.NL

Addresses have been tested. In case of a problem : route via the MCVAX
(either for UUCP or ARPA), the MCVAX is standing next to the HASARA5 VAX
(or so I'm told), so that should work....

Postal address, general info + tourist information will follow in separate
files. This file will be re-posted every two months, the other files will
be re-posted every 3 months (postal address + general info) or 4 months
(tourist info + extended info). As 1990 approaches, the frequency of
re-posting may increase.

DISCLAIMER :

I am **NOT** a member of the organizing committee and am **NOT**
responsible for the program/organization/etc. of ConFiction. I only act as
an e-mail go-between. I **DO** however have "official" backing of the
organizing committee, I've discussed this with them, they've supplied me
with info and I guarantee that any e-mail sent to me (see rules below) will
be forwarded to the chairman of the committee (Kees van Toorn). I cases of
doubt/emergency I will contact him by phone.

GOAL/PURPOSE of this venture :

A)

To provide the SF community with up-to-date info, general info, addresses
and tourist info of the 1990 WorldCon. 

For BITNET users : I will open a CSNOTICE at CSNEWS@MAINE. All files will
be send to this Server also, and can be obtained by sending a MESSAGE
(interactive 'send message' mode) to CSNEWS@MAINE with the following
contents :

SENDME WORLDCON CSNOTICE FROM CSBB

The file will be send to you in NETDATA format (use 'RL' (IBM) or 'RECEIVE'
(VAX) or somesuch). PLEASE, don't ask me to assist you with this server, as
I don't have the time to help you (requests to bitbucket), the server
responds to 'HELP', 'INFO' or try 'DIR * * FROM PUBLIC' (messages only).

B)

As a MAILBOX for questions etc.

Most importantly : changes of address, verification of your membership (in
case you haven't heard anything for months), suggestions, minor/major
disasters etc.

***   RULES OF CONDUCT *******  and   @@@@@@ WHAT I WILL DO @@@@@@@

A) Rules of conduct.

   Clearly state in the subject line of your message : WORLDCON. Optional :
   your own subject. E.g. :

   Subject: WORLDCON
   Subject: WORLDCON, change of address
   Subject: WORLDCON, Membership verification

   Etc.

   PLEASE NOTE :

   I CANNOT guarantee that your message will escape oblivion if you DO NOT
   include 'WORLDCON' in your subject line!

   Keep your messages/requests short and to-the point. DO NOT send lengthy
   essays via the NET, send those via slow mail, in order to avoid undue
   pressure on my node (AND **** MY MAILBOX !!!! ****).

   PLEASE don't ask me to become your pen-pal. I LOVE writing long letters
   and such, but I already have SIX e-mail penpals and I do not have the
   time to write to more..... sorry.....

B) WHAT I WILL DO.

   All mail will be dumped to I) 3."5 disk II) hardcopy. So it's imperative
   that you include the subject line. The disk is a back-up, the
   hard-copies will be frequently sent to the chairman of WorldCon ( at
   least once aweek).  In case of an 'emergency' I will contact the
   organization by phone.  As long as the number of letters is relatively
   small (less than, say, 15 aweek), I will acknowledge receipt of your
   message. As soon as this quotum is exceeded (I will give due warning),
   no more acknowledgements will be send, as this sort of thing is done
   during office hours, and I would *hate* to explain this little venture
   to my boss :-).

IMPORTANT:

Be SURE to include an e-mail address that has been tested (preferably from
a BITNET site), I'm quite good at routing, but I'm only an astronomy Ph.D.
student, and no net-God.....  People on nodes like '.SPAN' : please include
the most recent routing to/from a BITNET site.

WE HAVE EVERY INTENTION OF MAKING CONFICTION A BIG SUCCESS, PLEASE HELP US
TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITIES!!!!

Jacqueline Cote (M.Sc.)
University of Amsterdam
Astronomical Institute
BITNET : U00254@HASARA5
UUCP   : mcvax!hasara5.bitnet!u00254
DECNET : SARA5::U00254
ARPA   : U00254@HASARA5.BITNET    

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 09:14:00 GMT
From: U00254@hasara5.bitnet ("Jacqueline Cote")
Subject: WorldCon 1990

				CONFICTION
				 WORLDCON
				   1990
		       THE HAGUE -- THE NETHERLANDS
			    23 - 27 AUGUST 1990

	       THE   48TH  WORLD SCIENCE FICTION CONVENTION
		NETHERLANDS CONGRESS CENTRE (CONGRESGEBOUW)

GUESTS OF HONOUR :
   Joe Haldeman
   Wolfgang Jeschke
   Harry  Harrison

FAN GUEST OF HONOUR : Andrew Porter

TOASTMISTRESS: Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

POSTAL ADDRESS :
   WorldCon 1990
   P.O. BOX 95370
   2509 CJ  The Hague
   The Netherlands

IMPORTANT:

For an e-mail address :

see a previous posting or request the following from CSNEWS@MAINE ( in
inter- active 'send message' mode) :

SENDME WORLDCON CSNOTICE FROM CSBB     (Rem : BITNET only)

Addresses of Local Agents :

AUSTRALIA
  Justin Ackroyd
  GPO Box 2708 X
  Melbourne 3001

BELGIUM         
  Ronald Grossey
  Bouwhandelstraat 37
  2200 Borghout

SWEDEN
  Andreas Bjorklind
  Erikshallsgatan 16A
  S-151 46 Sodertjalje

  Carina Skytt
  Lundbygatan 36
  S-151 46 Sodertjalje

CANADA
  Yvonne & Lloyd Penney                    
  P.O. Box 186, Station 'M'                
  Toronto, Ontario M6S 4T3                 

UNITED KINGDOM
  Colin Fine
  28 Abbey Road
  Cambridge CB5 8HQ

FINLAND
  Toni Jerrman
  Viljelijantie 4-6 D-103
  00410 Helsinki         

UNITED STATES
  Marc s. Glasser
  P.O. Box 1252, Bowling Green Station
  New York, NY 10274

  David Schlosser
  6620 Hazeltine Avenue 9
  Van Nuys, CA 91405

FRANCE
  Jean-Pierre Moumon & Martine Blond       
  Villa Magali Chemin Calabro
  8316 La Valette-du-Var

ITALY
  Patrizia Thiella
  Via Novara 3    
  20089 Rozzano (MI)

WEST-GERMANY
  Peter Herber
  Hofrichterstrasse 13
  5000 Koln 80

JAPAN
  Masamichi & Michiko Osako
  523, 1-5-11, Inaba, Higashiosaka
  Higashiosaka 578                

YUGOSLAVIA
  Damir Coklin
  Pregradska 4
  41000 Zagreb

NORWAY
  Johannes Berg
  Tuenger Alle 10
  0374 Oslo 3

Membership:

ConFiction offers you two sorts of membership : Attending and Supporting.
Either choice entitles you to voting rights for the Hugo Award and for the
site election for 1993 (by mail or at the convention itself), of all the
Progress Reports, any Newsletter appearing after you have joined, the
programme book and any post-convention publication. An Attending Membership
also buys you the right to attend ConFiction and all the programmes
therein, including the meetings of the World Science Fiction Society
business meetings.  As a Supporting member, you may convert to an Attending
member at any time by paying the difference between an Attending and
Supporting membership.

General info: 

A experienced Dutch Tour Operator (Convention Travel International), with
an excellent reputation and co-operating with the Congress Building, will
deal with hotel and travel organizations. For the North-American members
will be served by 'Ask Mr Foster' in liaison with Convention Travel
International.

For other particulars (transport arrangements, customs, etc.) I refer to
the organization and its publications.

In due time ( a few days from now) ""tourist"" info will be send as well.
The Netherlands is a FUN/FANtastic country to visit. More particulars in
later postings......

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 13:55:11 GMT
From: ZELLICH@sri-nic.arpa (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons List Updated

SRI-NIC.ARPA file PS:<ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been significantly updated and
is available for FTP.  CONS.TXT is currently 1,588 lines/72,455 characters
(about 22 printed pages), and lists 144 SF, fantasy, horror, media, and
related professional conventions world-wide.

For those on the To: list (ARPANet/MilNet sites and non-relay Internet
sites), SRI-NIC.ARPA supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" login within
FTP, using any password.  For those on the Cc: list (Internet relay sites),
the actual file will follow in a separate message.  Anyone can obtain the
most current file at any time by sending a message to SERVICE@SRI-NIC.ARPA
with the text SEND PS:<ZELLICH>CONS.TXT in the Subject: field.

This update finally brings the list up to date with all the con flyers I've
picked up since last year's NASFiC, and also includes everything from the
current issue of Locus that wasn't already on my list.  For the foreseeable
future, I should be able to maintain my previous practice of keeping the
list up to date on a daily basis, so you can all expect
more-or-less-regular quarterly update notices as in years past.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 88 04:28:11 GMTF
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: C.L. Moore, Oswald Train & Lin Carter

Looks like 1988 isn't going to be any better. I've just gotten word that
C.L. Moore died last April. This hasn't been made public until now. She was
the author of the Northwest Smit series and Jirel of Joiry among others.
She was married to Henry Kuttner and they collaborated on many things. The
most famous pseudonym was Lewis Padgett.

Also, Lin Carter died this month of Emphysema after beating cancer two
years ago. Author and editor of more than 100 books, considered by some in
the industry to be one of the best book editors ever.

Finally, in January Lawrence O'Donnel, a long time fan, bookseller and
specialty publisher died.

So it continues. Unfortunately. 

Wish the news were better.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 05:02:58 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Question about Sir Lancelot

We all know that King Arthur's sword was called Excalibur (or Caliburn).
Does anyone out there know the name of Lancelot's sword?  A friend of mine
plans to play Sir Lancelot in a Champions game we're both in, and I was
curious.  Also, are there any special properties that the sword was
believed to have?  Other than being wielded by the best knight of the Table
Round?

Reply via e-mail, unless you think others would be interested.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 16:13:09 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com 
Subject: Hack Writers - Definition Requested

What is a generally accepted definition of "hack writer?"

In "Short Form" and elsewhere I have heard some authors dismissed as "hack
writers" and their works as hacks.  Until recently I had not yet read any
of the books so dismissed, but having just finished "Startide Rising," and
being halfway through "The Uplift War," the former of which, at least, has
come in for a good deal of derision, and having found both books to be
quite readable, I am confused and curious.  Without, hopefully,
degenerating into a Brin-bashing/Brin-defending war, can anyone tell me
what it is about these or other books which causes some reviewers to
denigrate them as the product of a hack writer?

For myself, I tend to be undemanding in my reading habits.  I read so
voraciously that all I ask of a book is that it be competently written and
reasonably interesting -- they can't all be classics.  Nonetheless, I was
surprised to see the "poetry spouting dolphins" [derisive phrase used by
someone in "Short Form"] so roundly and seemingly universally defiled (if
"Startide Rising" is a hack, why did it get so many awards?).

Hints, anyone?

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 88 09:22:51 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Hack Writers - Definition Requested

laura@haddock.ISC.COM says:
> What is a generally accepted definition of "hack writer?"

Writes 3 books a week, mostly romances, and about once a month a science
fiction book.

Uses bad grammar, writes like Barbara Cartland ("He was a lean and slickery
man, gleaming with charisma from his mighty thews"), has gaping plotholes
all around. If science fiction, the science is all wrong. If
"foreign-romantic-locale" type of book, the locale is all wrong (e.g. if it
was set in Louisiana, you'd have a town on stilts and everybody goes to
school in pirogues on the bayou... when, in fact, the few people who
actually live out in the swamps nowadays are hermits, the rest live in
modern houses etc.).

Piers Anthony. :-)

Engineers who failed English literature in college, but think they're
writing a science fiction novel (thankfully, one novel is all we ever see
from these folks.. aparently, some publishers just pick up the manuscript
on the top of the stack and send it off to the printers :-).

> In "Short Form" and elsewhere I have heard some authors dismissed as
> "hack writers" and their works as hacks.  Until recently I had not yet
> read any of the books so dismissed, but having just finished "Startide
> Rising," and being halfway through "The Uplift War," the former of which,
> at least, has come in for a good deal of derision,

I would not qualify David Brin as a hackwriter. He's not one of the
greatest writers to come out of SF-dom, but he's certainly
average-to-above-average.  Some of the Bio people choke on poetry-spouting
dolphins, but I'm not so picky (did you see the big blast Harlan Ellison
made about SF fandom in F&SF? He basically says that organized Fandom is
basically composed of humorless knit-pickers who enjoy Trivial Pursuit).
Calling Brin a hackwriter is about as logical as calling, say, Harlan
Ellison a hackwriter (wellll.... Brin's a little closer to hackerdom, but
you get the drift).

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509      
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Alan Dean Foster (was Re: Hack Writers - Definition Requested)
Date: 22 Feb 88 05:24:45 GMT

dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>laura@haddock.isc.com writes:
>>What is a generally accepted definition of "hack writer?"
>Someone who writes purely for the sake of money.  Alan Dean Foster is a
>hack; David Brin is not.

I like this definition. It's much better than all of the others that try to
classify a hack from the style of work - which, in general, tends to be
weak on either imagination or execution (Anthony and Chalker are exceptions
in this case - they're weak on all aspects).

Although Foster may write only for money, he is a master of dialogue.  I am
continually surprised by the lack of good dialogue in F&SF.  Foster is the
exception.  His major lack is in his plots, which as Dan pointed out, exist
because of the money instead of vice versa.  Now that I put in a good word
for Foster, I'll just duck and watch the fun!

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 29 Feb 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:

			Books - Clarke (12 msgs) &
                                More Ace Specials

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 06:04:20 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

Something has just reminded of a curious anamoly in the movie "2001: A
Space Oddysey."  One thing that sets this movie apart from other SF movies
(and most printed SF!) is that all the technology and science shown in the
movie is supposed to make sense, instead of the normal practice of making
assumptions that make the movie easy to film.  Thus there's no "artificial
gravity" like on "Star Trek" or "Queen of Outer Space"; instead they went
to a great deal of trouble to fake free fall and centrifigal accelleration
convincingly.  A more amusing example is that famous "Zero G Toilet
Instructions" placard; although it only appeared on the screen for a few
seconds, Clarke actually went to the trouble of imagining how such a toilet
might be designed and writing careful instructions for it.  (He must be
very proud of this, since the sign now hangs on the door of his bathroom in
Sri Lanka; but the technical writer in me is appalled that such a delicate
procedure should be documented by 50 lines of dense, abstract prose with no
illustrations.)

Given this thorough and Reality-oriented approach (which, incidentally, is
characteristic both of Arthur Clarke's diamond-hard definition of "hard" SF
and of Stanley Kubrick's compulsivily detailed approach to movie making)
one little thing has always bothered me: You will recall the vessel that
takes the government bureaucrat from the orbital station to Clavius Base.
Though it's got a lot of smooth, rounded surface, it's basically a awkward,
unstreamlined vessel -- which is not suprising, since it's used to land on
a low-gravity world with no atmosphere to cause drag.  So why, pray tell,
does it have retractable landing gear?  Adds complication and unnecessary
weight, no?  The only apparent reason is that it makes cinematic sense for
the ship to be *doing* something when the "Blue Danube" reaches its climax.
Did movie art win out over reality?

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 20:34:36 GMT
From: oltz@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Michael Oltz)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>vessel that takes the government bureaucrat from the orbital station to
>Clavius Base.  Though it's got a lot of smooth, rounded surface, it's
>basically a awkward, unstreamlined vessel -- which is not suprising, since
>it's used to land on a low-gravity world with no atmosphere to cause drag.
>So why, pray tell, does it have retractable landing gear?

Because the vessel spends most of its time navigating through space, where
it does not need landing gear.  Having the gear extended increases the
moment arm of the vehicle, making it more difficult to rotate for course
corrections.

Mike Oltz
Cornell Computer Services
215 Computing and Communications Center
Ithaca NY  14853
(607)255-8312
oltz@tcgould.tn.cornell.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 88 16:43:12 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>...So why, pray tell, does [the space-station-to-Luna shuttle in _2001_]
>have retractable landing gear?

One possible answer: docking with orbital stations which required that the
underside be clean.  Of necessity, landing gear has to be large both for
weight (even at 1/6 g) and for absorbing the kinetic energy during landing,
but there could be a requirement for a close mating with a space station --
for example, for large cargo which could not tolerate vacuum.  (I don't
recall that the film ever showed the shuttle in its dock at the space
station.)

Trivia time: there was a blunder in 2001 involving weightlessness which I
believe Clark acknowledged; it showed an event which would be likely to
occur only in the presence of gravity.  Identify the event.  (Hint: it
occurred during the Earth-to-space-station trip.)

Joe Morris

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 88 22:29:54 GMT
From: cbmvax!eric@rutgers.edu (Eric Cotton)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>Given this thorough and Reality-oriented approach (which, incidentally, is
>characteristic both of Arthur Clarke's diamond-hard definition of "hard"
>SF and of Stanley Kubrick's compulsivily detailed approach to movie
>making) one little thing has always bothered me: You will recall the
>vessel that takes the government bureaucrat from the orbital station to
>Clavius Base.  Though it's got a lot of smooth, rounded surface, it's
>basically a awkward, unstreamlined vessel -- which is not suprising, since
>it's used to land on a low-gravity world with no atmosphere to cause drag.
>So why, pray tell, does it have retractable landing gear?  Adds
>complication and unnecessary weight, no?  The only apparent reason is that
>it makes cinematic sense for the ship to be *doing* something when the
>"Blue Danube" reaches its climax.  Did movie art win out over reality?

Strictly speculating: Perhaps the legs needed to be retracted for it to
dock with the orbitting space station or for storage.

Eric Cotton
Commodore-Amiga
1200 Wilson Drive
West Chester, PA 19380
(215) 431-9100  
{rutgers|ihnp4|allegra}!cbmvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 88 08:58:43 GMT
From: hrlaser@gryphon.cts.com (Harv Laser)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

jcmorris@mbunix (Morris) writes:
>Trivia time: there was a blunder in 2001 involving weightlessness which I
>believe Clark acknowledged; it showed an event which would be likely to
>occur only in the presence of gravity.  Identify the event.  (Hint: it
>occurred during the Earth-to-space-station trip.)

Dr. Heywood Floyd is travelling from either Earth up to the Space Station
or from the Space Station to the Moon base, and is handed a tray of "food"
by one of the velcro-shoed stewardesses... the food is liquified and must
be sucked up through a straw.  Floyd sucks some food and when he pulls the
tray away from his face, letting go of the straw from his mouth, some of
the food slides back down the transparent straw into the container.  This
wouldn't happen in 0g.

This was documented in "The making of 2001" (I think that was the title) a
large paperback that came out a couple years after the film.  The book
contains an extremely hacked up re-worded version of a letter I wrote to
Stanley Kubrick congratulating him on his masterpiece.  (I was about 16 or
17 when 2001 was released, I think).  On my wall to this day hangs his
thank-you letter for my letter, signed by his (at the time) Personal
Assistant, Jill Brooks, dated 18th June 1968 which reads "Mr.  Kubrick has
asked me to write to you and thank you for your letter about 2001: A Space
Odyssey which he very much enjoyed reading."

Well, I didn't get his autograph, but I got a piece of his letterhead ;-)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 88 10:04:16 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

jcmorris@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Joseph C. Morris) says:
> Trivia time: there was a blunder in 2001 involving weightlessness which I
> believe Clark acknowledged; it showed an event which would be likely to
> occur only in the presence of gravity.  Identify the event.

I not familiar with any statements by Clarke on the subject, but it seems
to me that when Frank Poole's body was slowly turning in space after his
murder by HAL, his arms and legs would flop "down" a little bit whenever
his body turned "face up".

In a zero-gravity environment where the speed of rotation of a (human) body
was constant (i.e, no changing accelerations), I would think that there
would be no movement of the body's limbs at all.

So, howzzat?

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 88 17:28:59 GMT
From: merlyn@rose3.rosemount.com (Brian Westley)
Subject: straw sucking in 2001

Harv Laser:
>..Floyd sucks some food and when he pulls the tray away from his face,
>letting go of the straw from his mouth, some of the food slides back down
>the transparent straw into the container.  This wouldn't happen in 0g.

It would if the container was designed to be slightly elastic, and contract
when the person stops sucking.  This would pull the food back in a bit via
air pressure, not gravity.  A smart thing to do, too.  But this is
rationalizing; they didn't intend this.

I also didn't like the way "Making of 2001" says 'of course' HAL beats
whatsisname (not Bowman, the other one) at chess.  HAL would be programmed
to play a game at the other person's skill level, not pummel every player
by playing at grandmaster level.  No one would bother to play him
otherwise.

A real error in 2001 is the way the background star field slowly moves when
the astronauts are flying the pods.  This would only happen if they are
rotating, not simply moving.  But a static starfield makes the pod look
stationary, so it was made to move slightly...

Merlyn LeRoy

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 17:27:07 GMT
From: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu (Sean "Yoda" Rouse)
Subject: Another 2001 error (was Re: Straw Sucking...)

merlyn@rose3.UUCP (Brian Westley) writes:
>A real error in 2001 is the way the background star field slowly moves
>when the astronauts are flying the pods.  This would only happen if they
>are rotating, not simply moving.  But a static starfield makes the pod
>look stationary, so it was made to move slightly...

The REAL error is that you see the star field at all.  In one of Clarke's
speeches he mentions that you shouldn't see the star field at all, because
the Sun's brightness blocks out all the other stars.  The only reason the
star field appears is because they decided that it was better for the
audience to see what they expect to see (stars), then to see what they
really would see.  (BTW: If you look at shots from space, you will note
that no stars appear in the background during the "day".)

Sean Rouse
ARPA: cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!cory!cc-30  

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 88 12:14:05 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

jcmorris@mbunix (Morris) writes:
>Trivia time: there was a blunder in 2001 involving weightlessness which I
>believe Clark acknowledged; it showed an event which would be likely to
>occur only in the presence of gravity.  Identify the event.  (Hint: it
>occurred during the Earth-to-space-station trip.)

Ah, yes. The food going back down the straw.

There is a much bigger blunder in the film, one which Really irritates me
since i noticed it. I have never seen it mentioned anywhere.

WARNING... Don't read any further...

The landing approach display screens on the flight decks of both the Orion
shuttle approaching the wheel space station, and on the lunar ferry from
the base to the excavation, both have a TV screen with computer graphics to
guide the pilot onto a docking/landing. Except that the sequence shown on
the monitor does not match what is seen happening through the window.

The orion has matched rotation on the computer screen while still
approaching the wheel.

The computer graphics on the ferry's computer screen show it aproaching the
excavation touchdown pad and touching down safely and then touching down
safely again while still in flight.

With such amazing attention to accurate details in the rest of the film,
reaching a standard of special effects which no-one has yet surpassed, I
have never been able to understand Kubrick letting these faults pass.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 07:31:35 GMT
From: kreme@ucscb.ucsc.edu (Name? I have no name. My only name is Kreme.)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

>malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>I not familiar with any statements by Clarke on the subject, but it seems
>to me that when Frank Poole's body was slowly turning in space after his
>murder by HAL, his arms and legs would flop "down" a little bit whenever
>his body turned "face up".
>
>In a zero-gravity environment where the speed of rotation of a (human)
>body was constant (i.e, no changing accelerations), I would think that
>there would be no movement of the body's limbs at all.
>
>So, howzzat?

Nope.  While you could have a case there (I'm not sure), any motion could
be easily attributed to the muscle reflexes of a dead or dying body.  The
mistake that Clarke spoke of was far earlier in the movie when the
scientist (ol' wa's is name) was on the shuttle craft to the moon, and he
was eating his dinner.  You can quite plainly see the food go BACK DOWN IN
THE STRAW.  This is totally impossible in a zero-g environment and has been
acknowledged as a slip-up by Clarke and Kubrik.

So, what do I win?

UUCP:   ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!kreme
ARPA:   kreme@ucscb.ucsc.edu        
BITNET: kreme@ucscb@ucscc.BITNET    

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 02:14:00 GMT
From: wjr@frog.uucp (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: Prepare for Landing, Arthur!

This dicussion reminds me of another technical error in 2001.  Clarke not
only acknowledged this, but has said that he and Kubrick deliberately
decided to do it wrong because they were afraid of being accused of an even
dumber blunder if they did it right.  It involves the design of a piece of
equipment seen in the movie.  Anybody want to take a shot at it?

William J. Richard
Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. 
Framingham, MA 01701
Tel: (617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 23:42:28 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Orion and other Errors

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>There is a much bigger blunder in [2001], one which really irritates me
>since I noticed it. I have never seen it mentioned anywhere.
>
>The landing approach display screens on the flight decks of both the Orion
>shuttle approaching the wheel space station, [rest of the alleged blunder
>omitted]

I'll have to rent the movie and check out your story, though I'll bet
someone will confirm or debunk it before I can make it to the video store.
But that's not why I'm responding.  I'm wondering: why do you use the term
"Orion Shuttle"?  Don't recall the term being used in the movie.  Are you
under the impression that Pan Am shuttle was nuclear powered and that
"Orion" is the generic term for atomic powered space drives?  If so, you're
mistaken.  "Orion" describes a particular method of propulsion first
conceived by Freeman Dyson, which involves setting off nukes behind your
spacecraft and riding the shockwaves.  (Such spacecraft have appeared
recently in "Orion Shall Rise!" and "Footfall", both by I [heart] Nukes
authors.)  I dunno how the shuttle was supposedly powered, but it looks
like a chemical rocket to me.

Discovery *was* nuclear-powered (which is why the drive is so far back) but
although I can't remember the details it was definitely something less
spectacular than an Orion drive.  The book, "The Making of 2001" says that
they considered giving Discovery such a drive but decided against it.
Perhaps the special effects would have been too much, even for Stanley
Kubrick.

Come to think of it, Kubrick can be said to have nearly sole responsibility
for the high level of special effects now required for SF movies.
(Probably the rest of the responsibility goes to the Apollo program.)
Not altogether a good thing, given the number of SF movies with
spectacular effects, careful "visual futurism", etc., but science,
acting, and story fit for five-year-olds.

>With such amazing attention to accurate details in the rest of the film,
>reaching a standard of special effects which no-one has yet surpassed, I
>have never been able to understand Kubrick letting these faults pass.

Well, I was *sure* that he blew it with the lunar shuttle's landing gear --
and I was obviously wrong.  Perhaps you've made a similar mistake.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 88 01:26:06 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.edu (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: More Ace Specials

The listings of the Ace Science Fiction Specials that appear never seem to
include the 1975 series.  I know of only five books in that series:
   1) FROM THE LEGEND OF BIEL (Mary Staton)
   2) RED TIDE (D. D. Chapman & Deloris Lehman Tarzan)
   3) ENDLESS VOYAGE (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
   4) THE INVINCIBLE (Stanislaw Lem)
   5) GROWING UP IN TIER 3000 (Felix Gotschalk)

I'm sure if there are more, jayembee will tell us. :-)

Terry Carr had nothing to do with these.  Whoever edited them didn't put
his/her name on them anywhere--somehow this doesn't surprise me.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 1 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Hack Writers (4 msgs) &
                                  Favorite Aliens (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 88 19:04:47 GMT
From: A4S@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: Hack Writers - Definition Requested

In the middle of the article Re: Hack writers... there is a single name on
a line with blank lines above and below it. This name is Piers Anthony. Is
ment to imply (or for that matter state) that Anthony classes as a hack
writer by the definition of said article?. While I will admit that some of
his works are not great literary achievements, (Xanth, Incarnations, et
all) I will not believe that the Tarot and Cluster series where whipped of
quickly to make a buck. The Cluster series is a little Space Opera-ish, but
is none the less good reading. Also, hack writers should not be defined on
volume of paper produced.  By this definition, Heinlein and Clarke would
class as hacks at least at some times in their careers.

Hmm.. Could this be a possiblity? Maybe a lot of writers go through a
period where they turn out a lot of "sub-standard" works. Works by these
same authors that come out at the same time shouldn't be judged the same.
Often some are the product of years of work, but were only released now.

I think that there are not so much hack writers as hack stories (eg. pulp
stories of many 'great' writers). There are of course exceptions to this.

Andrew M. Schmidt
Penn State

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 03:37:00 GMT
From: d25001@mic.uucp
Subject: Re: Hack Writers - Definition Requested

>> What is a generally accepted definition of "hack writer?"

   If by "generally accepted" you mean how it is most often used, then
"hack writer" means _any_ writer of whom the speaker disapproves.

>Writes 3 books a week, mostly romances, and about once a month a science
>fiction book.

   A hack in the (almost) non-pejorative sense is a writer whose primary
source of income is closely tied to the _volume_ of output.  As a result of
this the hack cannot afford to take the time to make his work any better
than it has to be.  The form, content, grammar, spelling, etc. will usually
be no better than the minimum required for acceptance in the hack's chosen
market.  In the heyday of the pulp magazines hacks turned out stories by
the yard for a fraction of a cent per word.  Even in the 1930's it took a
lot of words to earn a living at those rates.
   For the curious, the most readily available example of real pulp
magazine hack writing is the Doc Savage novels that are still available in
paperback.  These are the finest examples of archetypical "hackwork"
available.

>Uses bad grammar, writes like Barbara Cartland ("He was a lean and
>slickery man, gleaming with charisma from his mighty thews"), has gaping
>plotholes all around. If science fiction, the science is all wrong. ...

   Often the case, but not always.  A few hacks in every generation manage
to transcend the limitations of hackerdom.  A list of some of the famous
hacks of the past and present might include: Edgar Rice Burroughs, Charles
Dickens, Isaac Asimov, William Shakespeare, Robert Silverberg, Milton,
Harold Robbins, L. Ron Hubbard, ...
   The quality is certainly as variable as you could imagine.  What all of
these writers have in common is that they were doing it for a living.  As
opposed to university professors and gentlemen amateurs who do it for the
shear love of writing: J.R.R.Tolkien, Isaac Asimov, L.  Ron Hubbard, ...
   The alert reader will notice that some names appear in both lists.  The
same person may at sometime write for money and at another for the 'fun' of
it.  Often, the quality of the work is very much the same under both
circumstances.

>Engineers who failed English literature in college, but think they're
>writing a science fiction novel (thankfully, one novel is all we ever see
>from these

   A generation ago this was the archetypical science fiction writer.
Except for the "failed English" part this describes E.E.Smith, G.O.Smith,
Campbell, Asimov, Heinlein, and half the other stf writers of the "golden
age."

Carrington Dixon
{convex, killer}mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 15:13:00 GMT
From: hapke@ccvaxa.uucp
Subject: Re: Hack Writers - Definition Reque

Carrington Dixon offers the following definition of "hack writing"

>    A hack in the (almost) non-pejorative sense is a writer whose primary
> source of income is closely tied to the _volume_ of output.  As

Then he offers a list of famous "hacks" who 

> manage to transcend the limitations of hackerdom.  A list ...  might
> include: ...  Milton

Milton????  I can think of no other writer who was so obviously intent on
creating "great literature."  Admittedly, he churned out a large number of
pamphlets, especially while serving as Cromwell's Latin Secretary, but
these were NOT written to provide income.  (By the way, _Paradise Lost_ is
a work of literature that has some science-fiction elements in it,
especially the battle in heaven.)

Note that the origin of the word "hack" gives you a clue to its meaning.
It comes from "hackney," a horse, especially one that is rented.  Since no
one would rent a good horse, the word became a derisive term for anyone who
worked solely for money, without competence or flair.

Warren Hapke
Gould CSD-Urbana
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!hapke

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 20:00:52 GMT
From: crown@dukempd.uucp (Rick Crownover)
Subject: Re: Hack Writers - Definition Reque

hapke@ccvaxa.UUCP writes:
> Milton????  I can think of no other writer who was so obviously intent on
> creating "great literature."  Admittedly, he churned out a large number
> of

   I think Joyce might rival Milton in his concerted effort to create great
literature.  Ever try reading "Ulysses" or "Finnegan's Wake"? :-)

Rick Crownover
Duke University Dept. of Physics
Durham, N.C. 27706
1-919-684-8279 
crown@dukempd.uucp
mcnc!duke!dukempd!crown

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 88 14:19:23 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Favorite Aliens

This is to whoever was asking for favorite aliens. Wherever you are, your
mail path (derived from news, pathalias, and the usual guess and hope) was
so bad fom here that all I got back was half a message.

Favorite aliens: David Brin's dolphins.
   Wow, dolphins that actually behave as dolphins have been observed to
   act... instead of as a cross between polynesians and vikings.

Least favorite aliens: Pierson's Puppeteers.
   Even Larry has since realised that carnivores tend to be much more
   civilised towards each other than herbivores. Besides, how much
   intelligence does it take to sneak up on a leaf?

Wife's favorite aliens: Bob Forward's "Cheela" or Hal Clements'
"Mesklinites".
   I don't understand the attraction of high-gravity environments, myself,
   but there you have it.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 88 20:42:10 GMT
From: aeusesef@csuna.uucp (sean fagan)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Least favorite aliens: Pierson's Puppeteers.
>   Even Larry has since realised that carnivores tend to be much more
>   civilised towards each other than herbivores. Besides, how much
>   intelligence does it take to sneak up on a leaf?

Maybe, but remember: the Puppeteers didn't breed normally.  In order to
breed, they needed both (potential) parents to get close the 'third sex,'
and, if that member wasn't willing, it must be caught.  Since there are
several approaches to being able to catch something, I see nothing wrong
with the puppeteers being intelligent (you can be quick, strong, or
intelligent; the puppeteers got lucky and got the latter).  I think this
would have served as the evolutional need for intelligence (in humans, it
was probably the fact that we tend to fight, plus the fact that we're
carnivores).  Just my opinions, of course.

Sean Eric Fagan
Office of Computing/Communications Resources
Suite 2600
5670 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
(213) 852 5742
1GTLSEF@CALSTATE.BITNET
{litvax,rdlvax,psivax,hplabs,ihnp4}!csun!csuna!aeusesef

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 21:23:06 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

I had intended to summarize and report favorite alien species survey
results.  However, I received so few, and the few I received were in format
suitable to the net, so I decided it would be as reasonable a solution as
any merely to post the whole result; the sample is too small to allow any
semblance of statistical accuracy.

Here they follow, edited _only_ to avoid redundancy.

From:    "The Kzinti Ambassador, M.P." <KHD@PSUVMA>

I vote for the linduali of Thrae IV (Daelin).  Description on request.
Also a vote for the kzinti (of course).

From: adobe!caro@decwrl.dec.com

Good idea!

Unfortunately, "favorite" is somewhat vague.  I can think of many
interpretations: Most Humourous, Most Probable, Most Fully Described, etc.,
etc.

But I'll just give an over-all, unspecific, vote:

I think my favorite alien species is _homo sapiens zarathustra_, commonly
known as "fuzzies", as described by H. Beam Piper, Alan Turing, and August
(sp?) Mayhar.  No doubt most folks would find the [Editor's Note: The
authoress in question is named 'Ardath Mayhar.']  Fuzzy books too
nauseatingly cute, in the same way that E.T. was nauseatingly sentimental,
but there it is.

From: madd@bu-it.BU.EDU (Jim Frost)

This is harder than you imagine.  I favor several non-human species for
different reasons.  Here they are:

Pierson's Puppeteers:

They are a marvel.  There's substantial history into their culture, but
that doesn't make them neat.  It's their technical excellence that I like.
Innovation.  My favorite thing is the "stepping disks."  This is novel to
me because they didn't choose to handle automatic routing for the network
of squares but instead let the walker handle it.  They merely made walking
easier.  So, they take the prize for innovation and technical excellence.

Moties:

The Moties win out for design, reasoning, and intelligence.  Their design
is incredible, allowing both brute strength and delicate operations.  Quite
an idea.  Mentally they are neat, too.  They would have taken over much of
the universe if they had not been unlucky enough to have the exit Crazy
Eddie Point be in the middle of a star and also to have the jump interfere
so heavily with their minds.

Martians (a la _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_):

For culture, the Martians in SIASL win out.  Their culture is quite alien
(Heinlein surely did a good job) and defines their very character.

Tnuctipun:

Well, these buggers have to get a prize.  No other alien did so much with
so little.  They are the ultimate in craftiness.  Who would think of
designing intelligence, longevity, and immutability into a food animal?  Or
that the "animal" might communicate by using its tracks as writing?  Bravo.
They were masters of genetic engineering and deserve credit for their
works, but especially for their craftiness at turning their engineering
against their masters.

>I would like to take this opportunity to vote for my favorite species,
>Pierson's puppeteers.  I'll include a paragraph once everyone else sends
>me votes admitting that the puppeteers are simply the best alien race
>created ever.

Best?  Well, at what they were good at.  But the idea of playing God with
entire species still makes my skin crawl....

From: scarter@venera.isi.edu

My vote would be for the fen (neo-dolphins) of David Brin's _Startide
Rising_ [some of this may not make sense if you haven't read it - sorry.
Highest recommendation that you do - best SF I've read since _Neuromancer_]
(hopefully to appear in the next book set in that universe, too).  They
seemed to be *real* in a way few other aliens are - partly because much of
the book is written from various fen's point of view (in third person
subjective).  At times at least they don't *think* like humans, and their
way of thinking does have verisimilitude.  I also like how Brin handles the
different things that can and cannot be expressed in the different
languages the fen "speak".  I get a feeling that the fen's mental/emotional
pathways seem right for a species that [forcibly was] evolved from a social
marine creature rather than a [arguably less social] savanna/forest biped -
thus the fen seem [correctly] more alien than the Tymbrimi (interesting
that every author I know has portrayed intelligent dolphins as tricksters).
The detail of the different personality types between the tursiops fen and
the stenos is also pretty neat, though it does slide somewhat toward
typecasting.  The process by which Moki slipped back into Primal behavior
was well done.  I also like the way the fen have respect for humans without
being obsequious about it (compare to the neo-chimps in _The Uplift War_).
Interestingly, there has been only one character in all three Uplift
Universe books that I really despised: a human, Dr.  Ignacio Metz.  I have
no problem liking some of the other aliens if if they *do* want to wipe out
the humans and/or fen.

BTW, I have to credit Frank Herbert for the Caliban [sp?] in _Whipping
Star_ for having the most non-human-like perspective on reality going.  The
Gowachin [ibid, _The Dosadi Experiment] also have a nicely alien feel to
them, but I didn't get *into* the characters nearly as much as I did the
fen.

Re the puppeteers - we really only have Nessus to go on, and he's insane,
in a way [bravery] that Niven's protagonist humans tend to share [I submit
that most humans are at least as cowardly as puppeteers without copping to
it, but not the Heroic (male, generally) Humans of adolescent sci-fi].  His
anatomy is moderately interesting, but his thought processes didn't seem
that different.  Of course, we weren't shown much of his thought processes.
BTW, I'd say that the Kzinti, Thrintun, and Pak are similarly humans with
weird anatomy - I don't remeber the Moties well enough to say.


Well, there they are:  the few results I managed to get.

I thank everyone who responded, and must even extend some gratitude to
those who didn't respond.  This made the results much easier to tabulate.

Full Vote list (not including posted responses):

Puppeteers:                           2
Homo sapiens zarathustra ('fuzzies'): 1
Linduali:                             1
Kzinti:                               1
Tnuctipun:                            1
Fen (Brin's neo-dolphins):            1
Caliban:                              1
Moties:                               1
Martians (Heinlein's)                 1

As I somewhat suspected, no species received more than one vote from the
respondents.  It seems that as usual, SF fans are a divisive lot, pretty
much unable to agree on anything.  I'll probably be taking another small
survey soon.  Until then, good reading!

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!
psuvma.BITNET!cok         

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 02:01:35 GMT
From: mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

   Yup, not surprising that you got about one respose per race (since each
respondent had to make up his own category).  By the way, my vote goes to
the Moties as they are simply an incredible job of extrapolating an alien's
psychology from their physiology. Also it was interesting seeing the
instincts that Niven and Pournelle believed an alien race could develop
after a million (or so) years of living with technology (those watchmakers
were bizarre!). Of course Niven's and Pournelle's Trunks were also well
developed from their physiology, but they just didn't capture my
imagination in the same way.
   Needless to say I loved the Fen (and Tymbrimi and other races that Brin
developed). Brin has a gift for making an alien race seem alien, without
making their motives incomprehensible.
   
mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 03:43:22 GMT
From: brun@husc4.harvard.edu (todd brun)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>COK@PSUVMA.BITNET (R. W. F. Clark) writes:
>>Re the puppeteers - we really only have Nessus to go on, and he's insane,
>>in a way [bravery]
>
>   Nessus was insane in more than just bravery. As you recall he was also
>a manic depressive. This makes him a lousy specimen of the race to
>determine their mental characteristics from.

I'm sure that most people who've read _Ringworld_ have read _The Ringworld
Engineers_, which features (gasp of shock) the Hindmost, Nessus'
ruler/lover and most assuredly a normal Puppeteer.  Also, there were
puppeteers in a number of other Known Space stories, mostly in bit parts,
but giving some sample.  So Nessus isn't the *only* example.  Remarkably
(??) he and the Hindmost behaved rather similarly in most situations, so
Nessus isn't that atypical, evidently.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Todd Brun
Physics Department
Harvard University

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 1 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:

	     Books - Beckett & Card (2 msgs) & Clarke (4 msgs)
                     Eddings (6 msgs) & Gibson & Heinlein (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 03:44:05 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Short Stories that Masquerade as Novels

I had to read Samuel Beckett's _The Lost One's_ for a course last semester.
This is a profound and unique piece of fiction the like of which I have
never seen before or since. It could easily be classified as SF, and I
recommend that anyone out there who has not read it GO GET IT AND READ IT
NOW.

HOWEVER, if you can find it in a library, I would strongly advise "getting"
it from there. Reason: it claims to be a novel, but it is no longer than a
short story. The copy I bought was trade paperback, $6.95, I believe.  But
it was only about 64 pages long. The pages had margins on the order of an
inch and a half all the way around. And the *type* was *HUGE*. There were
about 27 lines per page, instead of the normal average of around 40.  And
the characters they used were *HUGE*. The size of headers to sub-sections
in a text book or something. If you have a rather LARGE computer monitor on
which you are reading this, and it is 80 col. 24 lines, then I would
estimate that the characters in this book were slightly BIGGER than those
that you see before you on the screen right now.

This utterly amazes me. Anyone else have experiences like this out there?

Note: *I* thought the story was so good and so unique that it *almost* (but
not quite) made me feel better for the price I was forced to pay to read a
SHORT STORY.

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 17:54:21 GMT
From: jsp@hpclskh.hp.com
Subject: What a Card...

Forgive me, sf-lovers, for I have sinned.

Many years ago, I read a short story in OMNI by Orson Scott Card.  I hated
it a lot, and decided that he was a lousy writer and that I would never
read anything that he wrote.  But with all the talk on the net about
_Ender's Game_, you people managed to break down my resistance.  I
reluctantly decided to give it a try.

I love it.  It is both interesting and thought-provoking; both technically
whiz-bang and psychologically insightful.  I'm sure you've heard all this
before, so I won't go on.

I would just like to know if his other works are this good.  I have seen a
few people write that _Speaker For the Dead_ is written in a different
style.  Do those people think it's better or worse than _Ender's Game_?
Anyone with a couple of cents to throw my way (except you, Isaac) is
welcome to email or post.

James Preston

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 18:21:39 GMT
From: brookn@btree.uucp (brookn)
Subject: Orson Scott Card

I have seen postings to the effect that OSC ( Orson Scott Card ) has been
giving bad reviews to books that a soft on science. If it is true he must
have some problums with some of his own books. The latest OSC book i am
reading is called _Hart's Hope_ a *pure* fantasy book he wrote back in
1983, now out from Tor books ( ISBN 0-812-53351-8 ).  One of his others
_Wyorms_ (sp.?) was also mostly fantasy. I have only seen this book out in
an English import, but it was worth the money. I loved OSC's other books ;
_Enders Game_, _Speaker For The Dead_, and _Songmaster_ .

I hope I get some flames on all this. 8-) 8-)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 04:35:12 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (XMRP50000[jdp]-m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Clarke

celia!peter@tis.llnl.gov (Peter Farson) writes:
> Anthony Burgess clearly has a bone to pick.  Arthur C.  Clarke doesn't
> though.  "The Sentinel", the short story by Clarke that 2001 is based on
> contains the basic idea of Extraterrestial Intervention, but the meaning
> of the story has been greatly amplified by Kubrick, not least through the
> sub-plot of Hal the willful computer.

I don't think that "The Sentinel" really has much of a concept of
intervention in it.  I seem to remember it was just that a sort of alien
warning device had been discovered and the characters were wondering what
was going to happen at the other end.

The oldest reference I can find to the actual concept that humans had been
uplifted (to use Brin's term) is the 1959 BBC-TV play "Quatermass and the
Pit" by Nigel Kneale and it isn't just a hint, it is the central idea of
the story.  And it didn't just suggest that we might be uplifted again, it
examined the effects of the human race and how we are different due to our
"alien heritage."  The play was, in my opinion, a superior piece of science
fiction and it was made into my choice for the best science fiction film I
have ever seen, QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (a.k.a. FIVE MILLION YEARS TO
EARTH).  Kneale's film version incidentally was released three months
before 2001.

I guess it bothers me a little when so many people talk about what a great
concept 2001 was and neglect Nigel Kneale's contribution to intelligent
science fiction filmmaking in general and very probably to 2001 in
specific.

Mark Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 19:36:37 GMT
From: gadfly@ihlpa.att.com (Gadfly)
Subject: Re: Clarke

peter@celia.UUCP (Peter Farson) writes:
> ..."The Sentinel", the short story by Clarke that 2001 is based on
> contains the basic idea of Extraterrestial Intervention, but the meaning
> of the story has been greatly amplified by Kubrick, not least through the
> sub-plot of Hal the willful computer.

Another distinctive Clarke-ism was the pod-to-ship-without-a-space- helmet
scene.  I can't remember the name of the short story, but it was Clarke who
first proposed (in said story about an accident during the construction of
a space station) that a person could and would survive a brief exposure to
hard vacuum.

Ken Perlow
(312)979-8042
ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 21:51:33 GMT
From: ames!bnrmtv!takahash@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Alan Takahashi)
Subject: Re: Clarke

gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Gadfly) writes:
> Another distinctive Clarke-ism was the pod-to-ship-without-a-space-
> helmet scene.  I can't remember the name of the short story, but it was
> Clarke who first proposed (in said story about an accident during the
> construction of a space station) that a person could and would survive a
> brief exposure to hard vacuum.

I don't know about the short story, but I DO remember a similar scene in
Clarke's novel _Earthlight_ where one space ship rescues the entire
complement of another by moving the crew from one airlock to another sans
helmets.  The airlocks were not connected.

I don't remember all of the details here (it's been a while since I read
the book...), so I don't know the *reason* that this was possible...

Alan Takahashi
Bell-Northern Research
Mountain View, CA     
...!bnrmtv!takahashi

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 17:32:35 GMT
From: crown@dukempd.uucp (Rick Crownover)
Subject: Re: Clarke

   Clarke did describe a suitless transit of hard vacuum in a short story
called, "Take a Deep Breath."  I have a copy of that story in an anthology
edited by Clarke called "Time Probe."  I don't know if it appeared
elsewhere.

Rick Crownover
Duke University Dept. of Physics	
Durham, N.C. 27706			
1-919-684-8279 
crown@dukempd.uucp
mcnc!duke!dukempd!crown

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 88 21:34:57 GMT
From: EEU3399@cyber1.central.bradford.ac.uk (J.Bagshaw)
Subject: David Eddings

Over the past four or five years I have managed to read all of the
Belgariad and enjoyed it immensely. Always on the lookout for a sequel I
managed to get hold of 'Guardians of the West' around May last year. (The
local libraries don't get hold of new material very quickly!)
    From GotW I have noticed some inconsistencies :-
   
   A Dryad lives as long as her tree (several centuries I would presume as
   it is an oak tree) Belgarion is a sorceror (for want of a better word)
   and so has a lifespan of at least 7000 years if Belgarath is anything to
   go by.  So why does there need to be an heir to the Rivan thrown except
   to meet the demands of the populace.  Belgarion hasn't made such a bad
   job of rulership so he could theoretically carry on for several thousand
   years!

   The Sardion is said to be found at the place that is no more If I
   remember correctly in the exert from 'The book of Torak' at the
   beginning of 'Enchanters End Game' there was a place where Torak spent
   some time after the rest of the Gods had left which was described as the
   place that doesn't exist anymore.  Could these be the same place.

  Also if anyone knows the publishing date for 'King of the Murgos' in
Britain it would be well appreciated. I think this book is already out in
the States.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 01:36:18 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

EEU3399@cyber1.central.bradford.ac.UK (J.Bagshaw) writes:
>   A Dryad lives as long as her tree (several centuries) Belgarion is a
>   sorceror (for want of a better word) and so has a lifespan of at least
>   7000 years if Belgarath is anything to go by.  So why does there need
>   to be an heir to the Rivan thrown except to meet the demands of the
>   populace.

Well, first of all, what if *something happened*?  Belgarion *might* live
for thousands of years, but he might not.

Secondly, how long will Belgarion *want* to be Rivan king?  I would think
that the job would get a bit tiring after a hundred years or so.  Thousands
of years in the same job, *any* job, is more than I care to comtemplate.

Thirdly, of course, the prophecy may have some need for an heir.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 17:27:35 GMT
From: konc@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Jim S. Koncz)
Subject: Re: David Eddings
 
The man transformed a boy-wizard/prince into a GOD for the FINAL BATTLE!
Then, he started writing a new series.  After you've killed a god, anything
else would seem anti-climactic, no?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 01:31:16 GMT
From: mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: David Eddings

I just thought that I'd take this opportunity to put in my personal
speculation:

EEU3399@cyber1.central.bradford.ac.UK (J.Bagshaw) writes:
>A Dryad lives as long as her tree (several centuries) Belgarion is a
>sorceror (for want of a better word) and so has a lifespan of at least
>7000 years if Belgarath is anything to go by.
 
   Yup, that seems a little bit unbalanced to me. It's down right
unpleasant to outlive your wife by a factor of 10 (just ask Belgarath if
you don't believe me). What noone seems to be remembering is that in the
Vale of Aldur there is this Tree which has been alive since the world
began. What's more this tree is supposed to have a Purpose (which none of
the characters know). This tree "likes" Cenedra (sp?). Cenedra doesn't have
a tree (yet that she is bonded to.

mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 18:32:32 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: The Mallorean - any info ?

>Does anyone out there in net-land have any info on when the second part of
>The Mallorean by David Eddings is coming out??

April. Look for it in the next six weeks, at fine bookstores near you.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 22:49:25 GMT
From: skitchen@athena.mit.edu (Scott Kitchen)
Subject: Re: The Mallorean - any info ?

While we're talking about Eddings' work, I recently picked up a copy of
_Guardians of the West_ in paperback.  It's out for those of you who like
paperbacks or couldn't pay for the hardcover version.

Scott Kitchen
skitchen@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 04:56:26 GMT
From: pickle@inuxc.uucp (Greg Pickle)
Subject: Next Gibson novel release imminent?

I have been told twice in the last two weeks by book store personnel that
William Gibson's next novel is due out in March.  One clerk told me that
the title was "Mona Lisa Overdrive", which agrees with a cyberpunk article
that appeared in Spin magazine a year or two ago.

This news has caused me great excitement and palpitation.  I have been
watching Locus & SF Chronicle for mention of news like this.  I only recall
seeing statements about his screenplay work.

Anyway, can anyone confirm or deny?  Does it continue "Neuromancer" and
"Count Zero"?  Most importantly, does the Finn still live?

Greg Pickle
..!ihnp4!inuxc!pickle
..!iuvax!inuxc!pickle

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 19:51:33 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: "All You Zombies"

reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov (Reiher) writes:
>val@wsccs.UUCP (Val Kartchner) writes:
>>I would like to read more stories like this.  Please post the author and
>>book in which they appear.  Would someone please post the author and book
>>(of short stories) in which "All You Zombies" appears.
>
>The author in question is Robert A. Heinlein.  The story is in one of his
>short story collections. (I misremember which one.)  He also wrote another
>story similar called _By_His_Bootstraaps_. (Also a short story.)

Actually, I think BHB was more like a Novella.  AYZ is collected in "The
Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" (alternate title: "6xH"), which
also has most of Heinlein's shorter Fantasy.  Must reading, even if you
don't like Fantasy -- and anyway, Heinlein used to write Hard Fantasy,
which is analogous to Hard Science Fiction.  (Now the greatest SF writer
ever just babbles into a recorder.  What a waste.)  The title story simply
defies description -- just remember, The Bird is Cruel!

Superficially, BHB and AYZ are similar Time Travel stories about people
trying to untangle the knots you create when you abuse the Fourth
Dimension.  And both rely heavily on Shock of Recognition for their
entertainment value (neither story makes any sense until the very last page
- -- at which time the story suddenly becomes perfectly logical and
consistent).  But "All You Zombies" is far more sophisticated -- and is one
of my all time favorites.  But to enjoy it you have to read it *very*
carefully (remember that Paradoxes Can Be Paradoctored!) and overlook some
Future History that didn't come true -- plus a bit of genetic theory that
isn't widely accepted.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 02:13:44 GMT
From: mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" (was "All You Zombies")

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>"The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" (alternate title: "6xH"),
>which also has most of Heinlein's shorter Fantasy.  Must reading, even if
>you don't like Fantasy -- and anyway, Heinlein used to write Hard Fantasy,
>which is analogous to Hard Science Fiction.  (Now the greatest SF writer
>ever just babbles into a recorder.  What a waste.)  The title story simply
>defies description -- just remember, The Bird is Cruel!
 
   I don't know about YOU, but *I* can't go to bed without handcuffs
anymore.  Another fun story in that collection is "He Built a Crooked
House".
   
mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 07:58:27 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Re: "All You Zombies" (was Re: EarthStar Voyager)

I expect I will be one of many but I will yield to temptation.

>>Are we getting into recursive time loops?  knotty-knotty.  I actually
>>like stories about this type of thing.  How many of you out there have
>>read "All You Zombies"?  I forget the author (I'm sure someone will post
>>it), but it is a story with only one person skewing time wildly.  It
>>(he/she/it is a hermaphrodite) and is it's own ancestor.  (I'm not saying
>>how close to not ruin the story.)  If the story were told outside the
>>context of this author's telling, it would sound absurd.
>
>No, no, no. The novel you describe is called "The Man Who Folded Himself";
>I want to say it's by David Gerrold, but I may be wrong. "All You
>Zombies," if I recall, is a Heinlein short story to which someone else
>will doubtless post a matching description...

1.  The original poster was right -- the short story is "All You Zombies"
by Robert Heinlein.  The key word is hermaphrodite.  The narrator of the
story is his own mother and father, courtesy of a time machine and a sex
change operation.  Except for a few key incidents the narrator is not at
the same place and time as earlier versions of himself.  The final lines
are among the great lines of SF.

2.  "The Man Who Folded Himself" is by David Gerrold.  In some ways this is
the ultimate wild time travel novel.  The narrator is not a hermaphrodite.
The mechanism of time travel permits alteration of the past, time loops,
recursion, multiple copies of the same person, etc.  He is not
hermaphroditic but he is homosexual (with himself only).  There is a female
version of him and in some time loops they meet, mate, and produce
themselves, sometimes male and sometimes female.  It all works (as far as I
can tell).  TMWFH is probably the tour de force time travel novel -- AYZ
carried to its logical conclusion.  It's not a bad read, pleasant enough,
but more a tour de force than a striking work.  

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 1 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Herbert & Lewis (4 msgs) & Mitchell &
                       Niven & Palmer & Saberhagen (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 04:37:45 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

dan@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Frank) writes:
>   Actually, if you read "Dune" carefully, it appears that Herbert
>originally intended it to be about something quite different.  The
>unrealized subplots about the "planetary ecologist" and fremen society, as
>well as the interesting stuff about galactic politics, give way to the
>religious mysticism in a very jarring way.  I think Herbert got weird
>about half way through the book, and was never the same.

When you read Herbert's published comments about the _Dune_ books, things
get confused further.  He claimed that they were were written to discredit
hero worship, yet they are as fine a portrayal of a successful hero as you
can get in SF.  He claimed to have conceived the first three books as a
unit, which I find very difficult to believe.  I have read a half dozen or
more of his other books, as a duty, and I'm always disoriented by how _bad_
most of his other fiction really is.  As many here have remarked, _Under
Pressure_ is the best of his non-Dune books.  Some, like _Hellstrom's Hive_
are silly; others, like _Destination VoiD_, Are nearly unreadable.  Some,
like _The Santaroga Barrier_, or _Whipping Star_, have good moments, but
suffer from fatal structural flaws.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 88 00:10:59 GMT
From: deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis, _The Chronicals Of Narnia_.

I agree with all that is said, but you left out the most important three
pieces of evidence that Aslan is supposed to Christ:

1) Aslan is the "Son of the Emporer Over the Sea" i.e. the son of God.
When asked in Lion, Witch and Wardrobe if he could just disregard his
father's rules (laws), Aslan gives a pointed growl meaning "No way!".

2) Lucy asks Aslan if he is present in her (our world). Aslan replies, "You
know me there but by a different name" i.e. Christ.

3) In the Magician's nephew, evil enters the world (Narnia) through humans,
and there is also the whole bit with the Apple. I mean, talk about a
giveaway?

If #2 and #3 don't convince you that Aslan is indeed supposed to be Christ,
then you probably think Jonathon Livingston Seagull was just another bird!
(Anybody care to dispute this one? Richard Bach's still alive, we could
always just ask him!).

David Baraff
Cornell University

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 88 11:46:55 GMT
From: syap@ur-tut.uucp (James Fitzwilliam)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis, _The Chronicles Of Narnia_.

deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff) writes:
>If #2 and #3 don't convince you that Aslan is indeed supposed to be
>Christ, then you probably think Jonathon Livingston Seagull was just
>another bird! (Anybody care to dispute this one? Richard Bach's still
>alive, we could always just ask him!).

There are too many parallels in _Lion, Witch_ to the events of the Gospel
to argue substantially against Aslan being a Christ figure.

However, I must disagree that Richard Bach was portraying Jonathan as a
Christ or other messianic figure.  Jonathan denies several times that this
is so, stating that he is no different from anyone else, and that everyone
must find their own true perfection:

   A moment later Jonathan's body wavered in the air, shimmering, and began
   to go transparent. "Don't let them spread silly rumors about me, or make
   me a god.  O.K., Fletch?  I'm a seagull.  I like to fly, maybe..."

I think that Richard Bach is portraying more of an Eastern spiritualism
ideal.  "Heaven" turns out not to be an endpoint, merely a higher plateau
of learning.  Remember when Fletcher hit the cliff and found himself with
Jonathan?  "Didn't I die?"  "[No] - what you did manage to do was change
your level of consciousness rather abruptly."  The striving towards
limitless perfection is very nirvana-sounding.

Jonathan and the Chronicles are really the most successful allegorical
works I have yet seen.  They're good stories, and the ideas expressed are
very clear, yet you don't feel like you're being told something.  Whether
you agreed with him or not, one would have to be very dense to read the
Chronicles and not have a good idea of what Lewis thought of Christ.
Personally, I like Lewis' portrayal very much, which makes the books even
more special to me than if they had been just good stories.  Same for J. L.
Seagull and spiritualism.

James
domain: syap@tut.cc.rochester.edu
path: rochester!ur-tut!syap

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 18:00:18 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: The Space Trilogy

Ellid@umass.BITNET writes:
>I believe that Lewis himself admitted that "That Hideous Strength" was
>indeed an allegory, and a pretty anti-science one at that.

I would be surprised to learn that Lewis described any of the Space Trilogy
books as allegories.  I know that he scepifically denied taking an
"anti-science" tack in THS, citing the character of "Bill Blizzard" as
evidence.

>As for me, I got pretty sick of the whole thing about midway through
>Narnia - ... I was a devout little Lutheran in those days, and all I could
>think was how awful a Jewish child would feel on reading Narnia.

Hmmm, I was that Jewish child.  I reacted to the Christianity in more or
less the same way that most modern readers react to the Paganism in the
Odyssey.  That is, I noticed it, sometimes appreciated the beauty of the
myths, and never took it seriously.  I think this is how most
non-Christians treat Lewis.

> Then again, even Tolkien disliked the intolerance in Lewis's character:
>his casual anti-Catholicism, even in front of his best friend; his
>insistence on getting his own way; his refusal to talk to Tolkien about
>Tolkien's marital problems, followed by his insistence that *his* wife be
>included in the Inklings when no one else's was, no matter how educated or
>intelligent.

I don't know what basis these stories have, but the last, at least, is
impossible.  Lewis married in 1957, a couple of years after the Inklings
had ceased to exist.  Tolkien's childhood experiences certainly sensitized
him to anti-Catholicism, but I doubt he met it in Lewis.  After all, he
introduced Lewis to Christianity.  Besides, Lewis made much in his writings
of "mere Christianity" and the dangers of faction.

>Tolkien described Lewis as "a typical Ulster Protestant, and that was
>exactly what he was.

This is surprising since Lewis grew up in an atheistic household.  It seems
odd that he should have absorbed anti-Catholic sentiments without the
theological background that gave rise to them.

>But somehow I get the impression, on reading his religious works, that
>Lewis is the sort who wouldn't have been much bothered when heretics
>burned; terribly sad, but after all, the True Faith must be preserved.

This is a strange charge to make on the basis of a mere "impression."
Lewis wrote that theocracy is the worst possible form of government because
it commits the worst deeds in the name of the best cause.  Whatever else he
may have been, Lewis was no friend of Inquisitors.

>Expecting even more flames from this than Thomas Covenant,

I have no desire to flame, but you make a number of serious accusations
against Lewis.  If you have textual evidence, you should produce it.  If
not you should retract your charges.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 06:47:48 GMT
From: wlinden@dasys1.uucp (William Linden)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis, _The Chronicles Of Narnia_.

 I would like to take the opportunity to raise a specific point. In THE
MAGIC- IAN'S NEPHEW the world of Charn is destroyed by the utterance of
"The Deplorable Word". One might take this as an invention on several
levels (A sopho- moric possibility being an allegory of The Bomb) But then
in Vansittart's outree pseudo-historical THE LOST LANDS, I found the Count
of Angers making a gang of conspirators flee in terror merely by
threatening to "say _Destruction_". So, can someone say if there is an
actual legend or tradition which Lewis may have been using?
   
Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 88 22:21:41 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: NEVER THE TWAIN by Kirk Mitchell

		     NEVER THE TWAIN by Kirk Mitchell
		       Ace, 1987, ISBN 0-441-56973-0
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

   Howard Hart, the last living descendent of Bret Harte (his grandfather
dropped the final E on the theory that one shouldn't use five letters when
four would do), has been making a living as a minor con-man when he is
approached by a researcher who tells him that it was mere chance that stood
between his ancestor and perpetual literary fame: had Samuel Clemens been
successful as a gold miner in the West in the 1860s, he would not have
turned to writing (as Mark Twain) and eclipsed the then popular Harte.
Howard is currently being pursued by Federal marshalls for some fraud or
other and realized that being the last surviving heir of a literary giant
would be preferable to being that of someone relegated to the status of
minor author.  He also just happens to know some whiz-kid science-type (of
the Zen philosophy of science variety) who just happens to have figured out
how Hart can travel back in time to arrange all this.

   The time travel aspect of this novel seems to take forever to get going,
Hart (and hence the reader) sees very little of Mark Twain, and the book is
more like a Western novel than science fiction.  You do get several long
descriptions of the insides of frontier bordellos, but trust me, they're
not worth reading the book for.  The ending is also quite predictable.  On
the whole this is a pretty light-weight and disappointing read.  One would
do better to go read Twain--or even Harte.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 15:09:23 GMT
From: "hugh_davies.WGC1RX"@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Dotty science in SF

For those who are interested in such things, I can recommend a book called
'The Science in Science Fiction' by .................. (aargh! what's his
name, you know, the guy who wrote 'The Science Fiction Encyclopedia.....
Yes, thingy Nichols). Full of wonderful examples of stupid 'science' in
science fiction.

For my own tuppence worth, I would like to nominate the Larry Niven story
(the one were Beauwolf Schaeffer (sp?) travels to the centre of the galaxy,
only to find that it's exploding) where he says that the ship (the second
quantum hyperdrive) he is travelling in cannot be automated because the
mass detector is a psionic device, then about 10 pages later threatens his
puppeteer masters with photographs of the same mass detector!

Ah! hang on. I suppose thats not dotty science. Just a logical flaw. Long
pause while he thinks of a dotty science example. Got one! How about one of
the episodes of 'Space 1999', one of the dumb Jerry Anderson ones, where a
character was walking down a corridor in a space staion and at the end of
the corridor was a large illuminated sign that said "Artificial Gravity
ON"......

1) Why are they stupid enough to need a sign?!!!!
2) If they have artificial gravity, why are they still using reaction
drives for space ships?

Hugh

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 05:49:07 GMT
From: mok@pawl1.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Story requests

KANDERSON@hampvms.BITNET (Keith 'Dain Bramaged' Anderson) writes:
>   The second request is about a Novel called _Threshold_.  I can't
>remember the author, but I would like to know if the sequel is out.  It is
>the story of a Millionaire who is taken to a far planet by a beautiful
>'witch' and her 'familier' (sp?).  I put them in quotes because that is
>not how they were spelled in the book, but it is how they were pronounced.
>Its not much to go on, but I hope its enough

   Yup, it was enough alright. The book you're looking for is written by
David Palmer. An incredibly fun book even if the author has NO idea of
science. His ecology may not have worked (along with a few other things),
but what do you expect from a stenographer? As far as I know, the sequel is
not out yet. But from what I hear it is SUPPOSED to become (eventually) a
trilogy.

   Enjoy.
   
mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 15:49:54 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: The Pilgrim Series by Fred Saberhagen

			PYRAMIDS by Fred Saberhagen
			 Baen, 1987, 0-671-65609-0
		     AFTER THE FACT by Fred Saberhagen
			 Baen, 1988, 0-671-65391-1
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

   These are the fist two books in the "Pilgrim" series; things being what
they are today, I'm sure there will be more.

   In PYRAMIDS we meet Pilgrim, an interstellar time traveler of sorts who
needs 20th Century graduate student Tom Scheffler to help him recover part
of his ship from Pharaonic Egypt.  Well, sort of--one of the annoying
aspects of this series is that the concept of time travel is not only
different in the two books, it is actually contradictory.  Without giving
too much away, let me say that PYRAMIDS comes up with a unique way around
the Grandfather Paradox, and AFTER THE FACT seems to assume that the method
used in PYRAMIDS doesn't exist.  In AFTER THE FACT Pilgrim uses yet another
graduate student, Jerry Flint, to save President Lincoln from
assassination.

   PYRAMIDS is interesting in the way it uses the ancient Egyptian gods
(reminiscent of Zelazny's CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS, I suppose) and
its descriptions of ancient Egypt.  AFTER THE FACT is more accessible,
being about a time the average reader knows better, but this very
accessibility makes it less interesting, and the denouement is singularly
unsatisfying.  Saberhagen has the makings of a good series as soon as he
settles on a consistent rationale, and I hope he returns to more
interesting and alien settings with it.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 08:42:13 GMT
From: greely@teak.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: The Pilgrim Series by Fred Saberhagen

Potential *SPOILERS*

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
[portions of the included article constitute *SPOILERS*,
and should have been marked as such.]
>   In PYRAMIDS we meet Pilgrim, an interstellar time traveler of sorts who
>needs 20th Century graduate student Tom Scheffler to help him recover part
>of his ship from Pharaonic Egypt.

Well, we meet him, but he's really not the focus of the book.  When the
sequal came out, I was surprised to see it listed as "the new Pilgrim
book".

>Well, sort of--one of the annoying aspects of this series is that the
>concept of time travel is not only different in the two books, it is
>actually contradictory.

Not really contradictory, just unnecessary.  If his abstracted gold was
good enough, what is really *wrong* with an abstracted Lincoln?  (I know,
his contracters would probably have been pissed off about being slipped an
imitation.)
  What's really interesting is the fact that Pilgrim is apparently able to
move through time, yet seems unwilling/unable to handle the retrieval
himself.  After all, he's "acquiring" Lincoln for someone in the 23rd
century (Captain Kirk, maybe?), so the question arises: if Pilgrim can
reach the 23rd century, why is he able to operate in the 20th?  Wouldn't
that cause just as much trouble, temporal-paradox wise?

  The series seems to have a rather odd link between books.  I suspect that
it was named the "Pilgrim" series by someone at the publishing house,
because they couldn't think of anything better to call it ("second in a
series of books set in the universe of Pilgrim").  The books aren't really
*about* Pilgrim, he's just a plot device used to bring college students
into unusual situations.

  Considering how each hero ends up with what amounts to "the girl of his
dreams" (not quite, but you get the idea), I wonder if Pilgrim's real
purpose isn't lowering the level of sexual tension at major universities
(actually, he's trying to convince all the frat boys that true love *is*
possible, but you have to play "Lost in Space" to get it).

greely@satcom3.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 17:49:06 GMT
From: Gowan@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: The Pilgrim Series by Fred Saberhagen

   Has anyone ever read the time travel book by Saberhagen called "A
Century in Progress"? I thought it was well written, but it got a bit
confusing near the end. Also, were there any other books connected to this
one?

Thanks..

Gowan@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 1 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Shepard & Turtledove & Wyndham &
                         Vampires & Arthurian Stories (4 msgs) &
                         Book Requests (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 19:26:50 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: LIFE DURING WARTIME by Lucius Shepard
				     
		   LIFE DURING WARTIME by Lucius Shepard
			Bantam, 1987,0-553-34381-5
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Set in Central America sometime in the near future, this novel is a
collection of four novellas, "R & R," "The Good Soldier," "Fire Zone
Emerald," and "Sector Jade."  The first was nominated for a Hugo in 1987;
if the others have appeared previously, then the book gives no indication
of this (nor, for that matter for "R & R" either).

     David Mingolla is a soldier in Free Occupied Guatemala just trying to
survive, but as the novel progresses he finds out more and more about
himself and about the forces behind the war.  This starts out as basically
a war novel, but gradually becomes more fantastic (in a literal sense) as
psychic powers become another weapon to be used in the war.  His journey
through the jungles has echoes of Dante's journey through the underworld
combined with the concept of "rites of passage."  It's not for everyone--I
can't say I really enjoyed it, but then war stories are not my particular
cup of tea.  LIFE DURING WARTIME is not your usual science fiction war
story--there is not a lot of emphasis on tactics or battles with amazing
weapons.  It's a more sedate story about what goes on behind wars, and the
day-to-day life during a war.  In the latter regard it has more in common
with something like Manlio Argueta's A DAY OF LIFE than with, say, David
Drake's HAMMER'S SLAMMERS.  LIFE DURING WARTIME is not being marketed as
science fiction, no doubt because the audience it would appeal to is
probably more attuned to the mainstream novel.  In fact, it's being
marketed as a trade paperback, similar to the "yuppie fiction paperbacks"
that are so common now.  If it sounds interesting, look for it in that
section of your bookstore.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 88 14:48:48 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: AGENT OF BYZANTIUM by Harry Turtledove

		  AGENT OF BYZANTIUM by Harry Turtledove
		    Congdon & Weed, 1987, 0-86553-183-8
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I had heard about this novel at Boskone, but couldn't find it in the
Dealers' Rooms there.  Then lo and behold! there it was in the Old Bridge
Public Library!  Well, you know me and alternate history novels
(particularly the small minority that *aren't* based on either the South
winning the Civil War or Germany winning World War II), so I immediately
checked it out and read it.

     Well, uh, it was okay, I guess.  I mean, the stories were interesting
and the characters were reasonable adventure story characters, though
nothing remarkable in characterization.  But there was a certain sameness
to the stories.  They were originally written as short stories which
appeared in various magazines (chiefly ASIMOV'S).  This "novel" was formed
by concatenating the stories, without any apparent additional editing.  So
in each story we get aside references to how Byzantium never fell, how St.
Mahoumet converted to Christianity, what a beautiful cathedral the Hagia
Sofia is, etc.  Had this been edited better, Turtledove could have filled
in some new background details instead of repeating these same ones over
and over.

     In addition, the stories all fit a set pattern.  In each one, Basil
Argyros (I may have the spelling wrong--it was a one-week book and I had to
return it) discovers some amazing technological marvel--the telescope,
movable type, brandy, and so on.  Given that this takes place in the 1500s
the period is right, but it's unlikely in the extreme that all this would
center around one man.  There's also a Mata Hari subplot that I could have
done without.

     I suspect this was a case where the individual stories were more
enjoyable that the "novel" they formed.  If you read this, do it a story at
a time, but a week or so in between them.  Turtledove has done another
alternate history series, his "Sim" series which is running in ANALOG.  I
may not like it when it's issued as a novel either, but I have enjoyed the
individual stories and recommend them.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 02:41:54 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: JOHN WYNDHAM

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
[Discussion in which I think that is it unlikely that anyone would
intentionally do what was done in DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS.]
>First off, let me say I was referring to the remake, not the original
>film.  In my opinion the original wasn't very realistic.

I agree we were talking about the (far superior) BBC version.

SPOILER WARNING ....  

> I may be a bit hyperbolistic in my remarks concerning *Star Wars* and
> certainly science isn't yet ready for creating even single-celled plant
> life,

I still say that making Triffids is far-fetched, but I think you may have
misunderstood how Triffids were created.  They were not created from
scratch.  They were cross-bred from existing plants as an optimum source of
vegetable oil.  The cross-breeding when by in the Soviet Union and someone
tried to steal the seeds.  The Soviet Air Force shot down the thief and
hence spread the seeds into the atmosphere.  That is still an unlikely
origin, but much less so than creating cellular life and growing plants
from it.

> but if you grant the hypothesis that in ten years something called SDI,
> purporting to do something close to what Reagan thinks it will, is going
> to be ready for a full-blown systems test, it *is* possible they'll screw
> it up, with nasty side-effects.

The reason I think it is so unlikely what happens is

1) It was planned in advance, people were told it would be a meteor shower.

2) Blinding is a very selective sort of damage, but apparently no other
sort of damage took place, implying whoever did it, it was intentional.
And from at least one of the major powers.  And the other powers would have
had to also claim that it was a meteor shower that was coming, so it would
have been all of the major powers acting in concert.

3) There is no military advantage taken by any major power.

What does that add up to?  Not much.  Perhaps an alternative to the nuclear
arms race (I don't remember if this possibility is discussed in the novel).
But it seems pretty unlikely that such a conspiracy would take place.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 88 22:22:12 GMT
From: nutto@umass.bitnet (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: vampires

If the big vampire discussion is still going I'd like to share something
I've discovered. I ordered a vampire fanzine from Datazine 1 1/2 weeks ago
and just got it today. It's called Prisoners Of The Night and deals with no
media, just original vampire stories, art, and poetry. The art is a very
odd style and the poetry is spooky to say the least. The stories in this
156 page fanzine vary a great deal, but most of them do deal with the
humanity of vampires, or stories written from the viewpoints of reluctant
vampires.  It's like the BLOOD OF DRACULA comic just put out by Apple
comics, in that BOD gives the Count a personality, albeit an evil one.

If someone wants the address of Datazine(a magazine of fanzines) or POTN
write me.

A. Steinberg
216 Johnson             
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
BITNet: nutto@UMass
Internet: nutto%UMass.BITNet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
          nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 19:10:27 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Question about Sir Lancelot

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:
>We all know that King Arthur's sword was called Excalibur (or Caliburn).
>Does anyone out there know the name of Lancelot's sword?

It's been a while since I read my copy of Steinbeck's translation of
Mallory but as I recall Lancelot's sword was never named.

> A friend of mine plans to play Sir Lancelot in a Champions game we're
>both in, and I was curious.  Also, are there any special properties that
>the sword was believed to have?

No special qualities at all. At least, none that were ever mentioned.

>Other than being wielded by the best knight of the Table Round?

Second best. Galahad, who was Lancelot's son, was better.  

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 20:52:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Arthurian recommendations?

I would like to hear from netlanders about fiction they have read that
deals with the Arthurian legends.  I don't care if the stories are long or
short, fantasy or historical fiction, excellent or poor, in- or
out-of-print, set nowadays or long ago; I want to get a list of stories to
look for, and an idea of general reactions to those stories.

I don't care whether you post or E-mail your response; I don't want to take
the time to summarize things to the net (though I may), so go ahead and
post if you think it's of general interest.  No spoilers if you can help
it, please.  I'm also posting this request to rec.arts.books.

I'll start the ball rolling with some of my favorites.  Of course, one of
the most influential is T.H.White's _The Once & Future King_, which is four
small novels in one.  The two which stand out most in my mind are _The
Sword in the Stone_ and _The Ill-Made Knight_, the first and third.  They
are quite different in feel: the former is a joyful romp through Arthur's
boyhood, and has both love of life and effective zany humor in it; the
latter is a moving exploration of Lancelot, a man or many strengths and
some important weaknesses, and their conflict in his life form much of the
strength in this work.  BTW, there are three different versions of _The
Sword in the Stone_: the British edition, the American edition, and the
omnibus version in tO&FK.  Each has episodes unique to it.  Though I
enjoyed the Walt Disney film based on it when it first came out in my
childhood, a more recent viewing disappointed me -- it lacked most of the
meaning in the book.

Perhaps my favorite Arthurian work to go back and read excerpts from is
Gillian Bradshaw's trilogy, _Hawk of May_, _Kingdom of Summer_, and _In
Winter's Shadow_.  It succeeded for me on all levels: I deeply cared about
her characters, she writes well, she uses magic effectively, and I like her
treatment of moral issues.  The final volume broke my heart and made me
feel the tragedy of the story more than any other treatment.

Sanders Anne Laubenthal's _Excalibur_ was a delightful surprise, an
Arthurian fantasy set in modern Mobile, Alabama, which really worked.  I
enjoyed the way she developed the story from a mundane level to one with
supernatural overtones, and I was intrigued to the meaning she infused into
the twin quests for the Grail and the Sword.

Guy Gavriel Kay's _Fionavar Tapestry_ trilogy surprized me in its second
volume by bringing in a strong Arthurian element: the three major
characters become important actors in the story, and have to deal with the
continuing tragedy of their lives.  Kay's final resolution adds a new twist
to the legend.

There are others I've read (such as the first 2 of Mary Stewart's series,
read long enough ago that I need to start over), but that's enough for now.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 18:58:26 GMT
From: mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

>Perhaps my favorite Arthurian work to go back and read excerpts from is
>Gillian Bradshaw's trilogy, _Hawk of May_, _Kingdom of Summer_, and _In
>Winter's Shadow_.  It succeeded for me on all levels: I deeply cared about
>her characters, she writes well, she uses magic effectively, and I like
>her treatment of moral issues.  The final volume broke my heart and made
>me feel the tragedy of the story more than any other treatment.

Sorry, I had to comment on this. It's been a while since I read this
series, but I was deeply disappointed with it at the time. The woman is
definitely an excellent writer, and the books are put together well, but
one major flaw spoiled it for me - The three books are each narrated by a
different character. I remember one being narrated by Gawain ( Called
something else, but obviously Gawain, the youngest of Morgaine), the middle
one by someone else, and the last by Guinevier (again, a different name..
Gwynhfar?). But in the books, they're all exactly the same - the narrating
character seems EXACTLY alike in all three books.

Also, I wanted to throw in a good word for my favorite Arthurian novel, The
Mists of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer-Bradley. Absolutely excellent. From the
characters, to a very different interpretation of the legends, everything
about this book was WONDERFUL. It is, without a doubt, one of the best
books I've ever read. ( And the only MZB that I liked)

Mark C. Carroll
Rutgers CS Student
ARPA: CARROLL@AIM.RUTGERS.EDU
UUCP: mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu
      (backbone)!rutgers!topaz!mccarrol

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 15:30:41 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

Fiction dealing with the Arthurian Legend? Let me think...

_The Crystal Cave_, _The Hollow Hills_, _The Last Enchantment_, and _The
Wicked Day_ by Mary Stewart. An excellent treatment on the Arthurian legend
with a lighter emphasis on fantasy than most.

_Knight Life_ by Peter David. Sort of a "what if King Arthur returned to
the modern world?" It tends towards the humorous but is fairly good.

"The Last Defender of Camelot" by Roger Zelazny. Deals with Merlin,
Lancelot, and Morgan Le Fey in the modern world. An excellent short story
and a must read.

_Camelot 3000_ by Mike Barr (I think). A 12 issue maxi-series from DC
comics that has been collected into a recently released graphic novel. I
haven't read this but others seems to think its good. It deals with the
future return of Arthur and the knights of the Round Table.

There was also a sequel to H.G. Wells' _The Time Machine_ some years back
that dealt with the Morlocks using the Time Traveller's machine to invade
modern England. Excalibur makes an appearence as does a character who may
or may not be King Arthur, returned to deal with this threat to his
homeland. I can't remember the name of the book or of the author but it was
a pretty mediocre work.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 19:59:31 GMT
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Another story request

When you find out what story this is, the following summary will have been
a spoiler.

This goes back a number of years, before 1965 for certain, maybe 50s or
earlier.  It is about some person who is on a mission to bomb some sort of
cancer research institute, because they are about to make a breakthrough.
The main actor in the story is some sort of guardian from another race?
from the future? to see that a cure for cancer is never found, as curing
cancer would stop mutations and therefore evolution.  I know, it depends on
some old-fashioned theories, but as I said, it is an old story.  Anyone
recognize it?

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 23:43:36 GMT
From: bk0h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brett Kuehner)
Subject: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

   I read this short story many years ago, and I would like to find it
again.  The basic plot was that there were two human scientists/inventors
who were challenged by aliens to replicate various alien inventions.  These
were a perpetual motion machine, a depilitory fluid of some sort, and a
better mousetrap.  The humans managed to improve on all three, and at the
end of the story, the aliens reveal that their (the alien's) perpetual
motion machine was in fact a fake, powered by a disguised battery in it.
   Any guesses?

Brett Kuehner
bk0h+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 7 Mar 1988         Volume 13 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:

		Books - Adams & Anthony & Brust (3 msgs) &
                        Card (4 msgs) & Elgin (2 msgs) & 
                        Friesner & Kurland (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 15:28:09 GMT
From: guadagna@daemen.uucp (Damilee Guadagna)
Subject: Douglas Adams

I am doing a term paper on Douglas Adams and I need some information on him
and his works: Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy and Dirk Gentley's Holistic
Detective Agency.

Basically I am looking for reviews and comments from Adams himself or from
other people on his books, in articles, interviews, or reviews. Magazines
(issue #) where I can find this stuff would be much appreciated, or if I
can't find it, a copy of the article, along with bibliography info, would
also be appreciated.

Also, if anyone is a member of the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy Fan
Club (out of Britain) any info from there would be greatly appreciated.

Please e-mail me anything. Thank you.

Dale Guadagna
{decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!canisius!daemen!guadagna

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 03:48:14 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers

SMITH@dickinsn.BITNET (Smith, Stephen) writes:
>He [Piers Anthony] wrote a VERY good trilogy, _The Apprentice Adept_
>trilogy. I have yet to read anything else of his which I don't consider
>pretty bad

ACK!! The Apprentice Adept crapagy was definitively the single WORST
trilogy I have ever ever read. The bulk of the damn series was blow by blow
descriptions of such exciting things as: Two People Playing War (you know
- -- THE CARD GAME War), Two People Playing Ping Pong (and actually managing
to get INJURED SERIOUSLY in the process), Two People Cheating at a
Marathon, and Two People Invariably Doing Something Utterly Boring For Two
Hundred Pages At A Time which we must suffer through blow by blows of.

Not to mention the strange sexual fantasies about unicorns and androids...

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 08:58:19 GMT
From: locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Timothy Haas)
Subject: Re: Taltos, by Steven Brust, is out!

Steven Karl Zoltan Brust is a very interesting person.  He lives in the
Minneapolis-St. Paul area, is active in fandom out there, and is also a
very good musician.  He has formed a rock band called either "Cat's
Laughing" or "Cat's Smiling" (I don't remember which).  The band also
includes another very good author, Emma Bull.  I highly recommend her first
novel, 'War for the Oaks'.  She has also (as has Steve) written for the
Liavek shared-world anthologies.  Both of them can be seen and met at
Minicon (a SF con that is put on in Minneapolis Easter Weekend).

Timothy Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233
(414) 344-6988
INET:locksley@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
UUCP: ...!uwmcsd1!locksley@csd4

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 02:29:00 GMT
From: d25001@mic.uucp
Subject: Steven Brust, PJF

   Today I bought a copy of Steven Brust's new novel, _Taltos_.  On the
title page -- but nowhere else -- it lists the author as:
   STEVEN BRUST, PJF
with the "PJF" in small caps.
   Anybody know what the initials stand for?

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: {convex, killer} mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 23:37:18 GMT
From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: Taltos, by Steven Brust, is out! (Did you notice...?)

I noticed a mildly amusing blooper in "Taltos" that I haven't seen
mentioned here, so I'll do so:

(Maybe a slight spoiler for Taltos, better safe than sorry...)

When Vlad first meets Morrolan on p.22, he describes Morrolan as having
shoulder-length straight black hair.  Less than four paragraphs later on
p.23, he says Morrolan's hair is shoulder-length and black but CURLY.

I guess meeting Vlad must have been a hair-curling experience for
Morrolan...:-)

Jen Hawthorne

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 03:29:45 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: What a Card...

davidbe@sco.COM (The Cat in the Hat) writes:
> Sigh...all this talk about _Ender's Game_.  Is there anybody out there
> that thought the story was better than the novel?  Or am I the only one?

The short story was definitely better than the book. Card decided that he
had a MESSAGE when he was writing the book, and it overshadowed the
characters and the plot. I also think that the subplots with his family
were pointless and out of place, and the dream sequences about the Buggers
simply drivel. I was very disappointed. Card can do much better.

> Additionally...is there anyone else who thought that _Songbird_ (I think
> that was the title...I lost track of my copy a while ago...) is better
> than either version of _Ender's Game_?

Like in _Songmaster_, which was one of his best books.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 18:23:09 GMT
From: kjm@xyzzy.uucp (Kevin J. Maroney)
Subject: Re: Enders Game Sequel?

Earlier, the ironically-named Anthony Wiggins asserted:
>Now for the killer rumour: I have been told that there is a THIRD sequel
>to this series, ironically titled "The Third".  Supposedly still in
>hardcover, this book is supposed to be winding its way slowly to the
>paperback clusters.  If anyone can shine intelligent life on this rumour,
>it would be greatly appreciated.

This is completely false, a fact that Tony suspects.

Scott Card has repeatedly mentioned, mostly in personal appearances at cons
and such, that he is indeed contractually obligated to write a third Ender
book. He has no intention of beginning it any time soon, given his dozens
of other obligations, including the Alvin the Maker books (three volumes of
which have yet to be written) and, before summer, two more issues of Short
Form.

Since it seems not have penetrated the net sufficiently, I'll repeat the
history of the Ender books: "Ender's Game" was Card's first published prose
fiction, and appeared in the August 1977 _Analog_ (along with Robert
Aspirin's "The Cold Cash War", which also involves warfare with light
pistols and target suits). Card wrote SF on and off for the next six years,
spending more time on work for the church, and on a massive historical
romance, _Saints_ (published as _Woman of Destiny_; it will be re-released
soon under Card's title). His SF was popular, though; he won the Campbell
award for 1977, and nearly won a Hugo in 1980 for "Unaccompanied Sonata".
   In 1982, he decided to write _Speaker for the Dead_, detailing Ender's
attempts to redeem himself and recreate his life after his eventful
childhood. Card realized that he should reintroduce Ender, and wrote a
novel-length version of _Ender's Game_, which retains most of the plot of
the original. iNext, he began work on _Speaker_, but before he had finished
it, his agent sold the "trilogy" to its British publisher.  Aware that he
would be writing a sequel, Card deferred a number of elements into the
sequel, including a great deal of exploration ofthe thought- processes of
Jane and The Bugger.

So, yes, there will be a sequel. It doesn't yet exist in any form, and
friends of Scott's are still trying to help him form the plot into shape.
Maybe before the end of the century.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 88 00:53:55 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Enders Game Sequel?

>So, yes, there will be a sequel. It doesn't yet exist in any form, and
>friends of Scott's are still trying to help him form the plot into shape.
>Maybe before the end of the century.

The rumor I plan on starting (um, mentioning) is that the third book can't
be published because part of it has been sold to Harlan Ellison for The
final Dangerous Visions, and the Harlan has first publishing rights for the
material. So you'll see the third book right after Harlan gets TFDV
published sometime in 1976.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 88 04:05:53 GMT
From: soren@reed.uucp (My Evil Twin)
Subject: Re: What a Card...

davidbe@sco.COM (The Cat in the Hat) writes:
>Sigh...all this talk about _Ender's Game_.  Is there anybody out there
>that thought the story was better than the novel?  Or am I the only one?

No.  You are not.  I reread the novelette after finishing the novel (I
first read the novelette when I was 14--hardly a good time for critical
judgement--and thought it was absolutely brilliant.  I had the same
reaction to the Covenant novels at about the same time--go figure), and
while it wasn't as good as I remember, it was still a vast improvement on
the novel.  There is nothing so tedious as listening to someone describe
video games he played, and there is a *lot* of that in the novel.  The
novelette is still clumsily written and amazingly mawkish, but it made its
point in much less space.

Soren Petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 20:17:14 GMT
From: goldberg@csli.stanford.edu (Jeffrey Goldberg)
Subject: Linguistics

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned on the sf group.

"Native Tongue" by Suzette H. Elgin has more linguistics in it than any
other sf book I have ever read (with the exception of the sequal: "Judas
Rose").  It has serious problems with cetain linguistic aspects (the
ability to learn any humanoid language, even with a markedly different
phsyiology, and the very strong Whorfianism), but I thought that it was an
outstanding book despite (and maybe even because of these things).

Elgin has another sf book in which she tells some inside jokes to
linguists.  It's not that great of a book, and I can't recall the title.

Jeff Goldberg
Internet: goldberg@csli.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 01:24:45 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: NATIVE TONGUE by Suzette Haden Elgin

		   NATIVE TONGUE by Suzette Haden Elgin
			 DAW, 1984, 0-87997-945-3
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

goldberg@csli.UUCP (Jeffrey Goldberg) writes: "NATIVE TONGUE by Suzette H.
Elgin has more linguistics in it than any other sf book I have ever read
... I thought that it was an outstanding book despite [some linguistic
flaws]."  I coincidentally just finished reading NATIVE TONGUE.  My
linguistics is a bit rusty--my college linguistics course being (my God!)
twenty years ago--but I found this book so reprehensible for reasons
unrelated to linguistics that I feel obliged to explain why I most
certainly do *not* recommend it.]

     NATIVE TONGUE is based on the same premise as Margaret Atwood's
HANDMAID'S TALE (though it predates it by a couple of years): that women
have been relegated to second-class status, kept as chattel by their
fathers or husbands.  This is brought about by the 24th Amendment, which
repealed the 19th, and the 25th Amendment, which deemed women legally
minors.  I suppose this makes this an alternate history since the actual
24th Amendment (ratified in 1967) outlawed poll taxes and the actual 25th
Amendment (ratified in 1971) described the procedure for filling vacancies
in the Vice-Presidency, etc.  However, since the rest of novel seems to
presuppose our current reality, I can only conclude that Elgin did her
research from a copy of the Constitution printed before 1967.  Such sloppy
research does not encourage one regarding the rest of the book.

     There is another premise, however: that we have been contacted by
aliens and certain families ("Lines") are especially adept at learning
languages, both human and alien.  That women are as good at this as men is
one factor that keeps them from total subjugation--there is too great a
shortage of translators to waste anyone.  The plot of NATIVE TONGUE
revolves around this situation and the attempt of women to create their own
language.

     I disliked this novel for three reasons: two minor and one major.  The
first minor reason is the sloppy research already mentioned, but this could
have been corrected by a good editor, apparently not present at DAW when
this manuscript arrived.  The other minor reason is that the children in
the novel all learn three to five un-related Earth languages and one alien
one from infancy.  If the purpose of learning languages is to communicate
with aliens and English is a universal Earth language (as it seems to be),
why have the children learning Hopi and Swedish when they could be learning
alien languages--especially when alien translators are in such short supply
that a given alien language probably has only three human speakers,
including one toddler and one woman?  It's not from some abstract desire to
keep these languages alive, because the men of the Lines are obviously too
cold-blooded for that.

     The major reason I disliked this book is that I found it so stridently
"women's lib" as to be positively reprehensible.  Most books which
postulate a male-dominated society of the future show some moderating
influences.  Atwood's book, for example, localized the situation to the
United States and even there there were men who didn't entirely support it.
There was also a justification for the change in society (a decrease in
fertility) and the idea that women in such organizations as Women Against
Pornography did as much to bring it about as men.  Elgin's androcracy is
world-wide (hard to explain on the basis of two amendments to the United
States Constitution), brought about against the wishes of all women (so far
as we can tell), and every man--WITHOUT EXCEPTION--fully supports it.  I
know some men on this planet and the only conclusion that I can draw is
that Elgin is writing about an alien planet with an alien species on it.
The extremism of her premise and her characters makes it and them
impossible to believe and the idea that a language invented just for women
would help the situation is just one more impossibility piled on top.  This
is the sort of literature often deemed "hate-literature" and I cannot
recommend it.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 18:01:24 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Elf Defense by Esther Friesner

This one's fun!  The Elf King arrives in all his terrible might and glory
to seize the mortal woman who has dared to flee his realm, and encounters
that woman's defender: who initiates legal proceedings against him.  A
skillful combination of the serious and the silly: lots of laughs.

(Loosely connected to "New York by Knight".)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 20:47:32 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: New Lord Darcy book - is it any good?

>I was wandering around in a bookstore recently and I noticed a new Lord
>Darcy book (using Randall Garrett's (sp?) character but not written by
>him).  Has anyone read it, and is it good? How does it compare to the
>books Garrett wrote?

Michael Kurland does a good job of imitating Garrett's style. The book
reads just like something Garrett would have written if he had survived his
illness unscathed.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 18:01:51 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: New Lord Darcy book - is it any good?

>>I was wandering around in a bookstore recently and I noticed a new Lord
>>Darcy book (using Randall Garrett's (sp?) character but not written by
>>him).  Has anyone read it, and is it good? How does it compare to the
>>books Garrett wrote?
>
>Michael Kurland does a good job of imitating Garrett's style. The book
>reads just like something Garrett would have written if he had survived
>his illness unscathed.

Funny. I disagree completely. It's a good, solid, locked room mystery in
the Agatha Christie style, you could almost call it a clone of "Ten Little
Indians" (which, from the title [Ten Little Wizards] shouldn't be TOO
surprising). The writing is decent. What really bothered me was Kurland
completely missed the most important facet of Garrett's writing: the
characters. Darcy and Sean are flat and very, very serious. Garrett had an
ability to write some levity (and a number of carefully placed puns) into
all of his works: this is all missing. The characters look kind of like
Garrett's characters, and they're named the same, but they sound and act
different.

I wasn't terribly impressed. It's a good story, and a good mystery. What I
wanted, though, was a good Garrett book, and it isn't that. And the cover,
by the way, really, really sucks. Really.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 7 Mar 1988         Volume 13 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Clarke (8 msgs) & Eddings (3 msgs) &
                       Gibson (2 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 19:09:11 GMT
From: cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu
Subject: Travelling in vacuum

gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Gadfly) writes:
>Another distinctive Clarke-ism was the pod-to-ship-without-a-space- helmet
>scene.  I can't remember the name of the short story, but it was Clarke
>who first proposed (in said story about an accident during the
>construction of a space station) that a person could and would survive a
>brief exposure to hard vacuum.

I remember a scene like that in _Earthlight_.  As I remember, a ship had to
evacuate her crew, but her airlock coupling mechanism was dammaged.  The
crew of 100+ had to free jump about 50 meters without suits.  Casualties
were several nosebleeds, a few more with sunburn and one who lost his cool
and didn't make it to the rescue ship in time.

Taki Kogoma
{ucbvax,gatech,ames}!hc.dspo,gov!hi!charon!cs2551aq
cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu                            

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 10:37:48 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Seeing stars in space

Sean Rouse writes:
>The REAL error is that you see the star field at all.  In one of Clarke's
>speeches he mentions that you shouldn't see the star field at all, because
>the Sun's brightness blocks out all the other stars.  The only reason the
>star field appears is because they decided that it was better for the
>audience to see what they expect to see (stars), then to see what they
>really would see.

He made the same point in _A Fall of Moondust_ when the camera crew is
setting up to broadcast the rescue.  If I remember right, the director
tells the cameraman to turn on the gizmo which lets the camera see the
stars.  (In this case, I don't think the Sun was in the field of view, just
the surface of the Moon.)

He's right in a way: current video equipment will not pick up any but the
very brightest stars (and perhaps not even them).  However, I'm sure
someone could easily come up with such a gizmo as Clarke describes.

>(BTW: If you look at shots from space, you will note that no stars appear
>in the background during the "day".)

That's because of the limitations of cameras and film.  If they left the
iris open long enough to record stars, any bright objects would be horribly
over-exposed.  However, the human eye is not subject to the same
restrictions as a camera.  I believe it is possible to see stars in space
even if some fairly bright object (such as part of the Earth or the horizon
of the Moon) is in your field of view.  (Not the Sun though; it's far too
bright.)  The stars in the immediate neighborhood of the bright object
would not be visible.

Dan Tilque
dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 04:45:31 GMT
From: jac@triumph.rutgers.edu (Jonathan A. Chandross)
Subject: Re: Travelling in vacuum

NASA did some experiments with monkeys in hard vacuum (that means space).
The monkeys survived short doses.  Skin is amazing resilient.  So the short
stories are correct.

CAVEATS:	
   You will end up with severe nasal bleeding. (This is the best part.) 
   You will end up deaf when your eardrums rupture.
   You will end up with with permanent vision defects. You might even end 
      up blind.
   You will end up with the bends (nitrogen bubbling out of the blood.
      Very painful.  Very deadly).
   You will require immediate hospitalization if you are out longer than
      a few seconds.
   You will be very sorry you did it.

In short, it's a lot like what happens when divers get the bends.  Kids
please don't try this at home.

Try the Britannica (sp) or a Library for more information.

Jonathan A. Chandross
ARPA: jac@paul.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!jac@paul.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 15:12:40 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Another 2001 error (was Re: Straw Sucking...)

kupfer@torino.UUCP (Mike Kupfer) writes:
>cc-30@cory.berkeley.edu (Sean Rouse) writes:
>> The REAL error is that you see the star field at all.  In one of
>> Clarke's speeches he mentions that you shouldn't see the star field at
>> all, because the Sun's brightness blocks out all the other stars.
>
>Is that right, even out by Jupiter?  I thought that at that distance the
>Sun would appear merely as another star, albeit a bright one.

The mechanism by which the sun (and the moon) blocks stars is by light
scattered by the atmosphere coming into the eye from all angles obscuring
the dim starlight.  In space, there is no atmosphere and thus the only
thing that would prevent you from seeing faint stars near the sun is the
blinding effect on your retina.  Placing your thumb over the image of the
sun would be sufficient to allow you to see the faintest stars, and you
could create a total eclipse at will.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 17:41:06 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Orion and other Errors

> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
> I'll have to rent the movie and check out your story, though I'll bet
> someone will confirm or debunk it before I can make it to the video
> store.  But that's not why I'm responding.  I'm wondering: why do you use
> the term "Orion Shuttle"?  Don't recall the term being used in the movie.
> Are you under the impression that Pan Am shuttle was nuclear powered and
> that "Orion" is the generic term for atomic powered space drives?
 
According to details I read years ago about the Pan Am shuttle It was an
Orion class nuclear powered shuttle.

At least that is what the label on the Airfix model kit said, amongst
others.

> Not altogether a good thing, given the number of SF movies with
> spectacular effects, careful "visual futurism", etc., but science,
> acting, and story fit for five-year-olds.
 
Please dont insult five year-olds. When I was this age I couldn't
understand why most people couldn't see the mistakes in SF films. 1/2 :->

>>With such amazing attention to accurate details in the rest of the film,
>>reaching a standard of special effects which no-one has yet surpassed, I
>>have never been able to understand Kubrick letting these faults pass.
>
> Well, I was *sure* that he blew it with the lunar shuttle's landing gear
> -- and I was obviously wrong.  Perhaps you've made a similar mistake.

I am quite willing to take bets that I am not.

And even willing to take a bet on their being another mistake in a
weightless scene in the film.

Hint: "What are you doing Dave?"

Have fun looking.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 00:21:54 GMT
From: tim@ism780c.uucp (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: Clarke

Clarke has a non-fiction essay about what would happen to humans in a
vacuum.  The essay may be in the book "Serendipity", but I am not sure.  I
have two books of non-fiction essays by Clarke, and that is the only one
whose title I can remember.

Tim Smith
tim@ism780c.isc.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 16:25:55 GMT
From: arlan@inuxm.uucp (A Andrews)
Subject: Re: Clarke

Actually, Stanley Weinbaum proposed that a person could survive space in an
old, old book, THE RED PERI, which I must have read in the early 50s,
before any of Clarke's stories were out.  And I suspect that Wells or Verne
did it even before that.  (Did the rocketeers in FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON
wear suits on the Moon?)

Arlan Andrews

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 02:37:21 GMT
From: grgurich@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Matthew Grgurich)
Subject: Re: Clarke

crown@dukempd.UUCP (Rick Crownover) writes:
>   Clarke did describe a suitless transit of hard vacuum in a short story
>called, "Take a Deep Breath."  I have a copy of that story in an anthology
>edited by Clarke called "Time Probe."  I don't know if it appeared
>elsewhere.

******MILD SPOILER ******

A similar incident was written about in "Footfall" by Niven ( or was that
Pournelle? ). During explosive decompression the characters fumble to get
to inflatable life bubbles, fighting the outrush of air all the way.
Dramatic, huh?

Matt Grgurich

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 18:53:30 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Justification for The Mallorean?

Does Evil get several chances while Good only gets one?

Or is the struggle between the two Prophecies a best-out-of-three, with the
Belgariad leaving them at one-and-one?

Or was the outcome of the Belgariad going to be nothing but a warmup
whatever the outcome?  (Torak: What do you *mean* 'prophecy'?  I *killed*
Belgarion.  I won!  Seer: So now you have to fight Errand.  This time it's
for real, I promise.  No more quintologies.)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 14:58:52 GMT
From: dan@cisunx.uucp (Daniel E Eikenberry)
Subject: Re: Justification for The Mallorean?

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Does Evil get several chances while Good only gets one?

Isn't that the way it always has been? In all fantasy?  To pick one of the
series that gets cut up on.  Shanarra! Now let's see who was the bad guy?
Well I haven't read the book in so long that I cannot remember, but once he
was defeated, he never came back( or at least hasn't yet)

All fantasy I have read ends up that way.  I have yet to find one where the
bad guy actually comes out on top(a rather refreshing idea, it's good to
shock the readers once in awhile), has anyone else?

Dan Eikenberry
University of Pitsburgh
Computing and Information Systems Software Technician
624 Worth. St. 
pittsburgh, pa 15217
dan@cisunx.UUCP
dan@pittvms	

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 19:29:58 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Justification for The Mallorean?

This talk about Torak coming back confuses me. Torak is dead!  The threat
is now an evil rock - the counterpart to the stone in Belgarion's sword.
The evil rock has influenced a bad human (or so it would seem) to help
carry it around, but the thing appears to represent pure evil (Torak was
not pure evil - just a ticked off God who was mad at all his
goodie-two-shoes brothers, thereby deciding to take his wrath out on the
world).

Does evil get more than one chance?  Of course! It has a whole eternity to
work its influence on the universe, just as good has that same chance.  The
twist is that evil promises easy riches while good demands hard work and
little payoff. That is the cause of armies and whole societies following
evil with so little resistance while good struggles against them.

Will good ever triumph? Will they ever find a lasting peace?  Don't count
on it; not in fantasy or real life. Look around...  (Why do so many fantasy
novels have the same theme? They're all based on the real world.)

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 18:53:41 GMT
From: kjm@xyzzy.uucp (Kevin J. Maroney)
Subject: Re: Next Gibson novel release imminent?

pickle@inuxc.UUCP (Greg Pickle) writes:
>I have been told twice in the last two weeks by book store personnel that
>William Gibson's next novel is due out in March.  One clerk told me that
>the title was "Mona Lisa Overdrive",

Partly right, partly wrong. _The Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is complete and ready
for publication. However, the first HC edition will be from Gollancz & Co.,
in April, and the American HC edition will not come out until the fall of
this year. No one I've spoken to can guess why this is so, but still it
seems to be the case.

The Gollancz editon can be had from L.H. Currey, Elizabethtown, NY 12932

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 88 10:05:00 GMT
From: webber@athos.rutgers.edu (Bob Webber)
Subject: Re: Next Gibson novel release imminent?

pickle@inuxc.UUCP (Greg Pickle) writes:
> I have been told twice in the last two weeks by book store personnel that
> William Gibson's next novel is due out in March.  One clerk told me that
> the title was "Mona Lisa Overdrive", which agrees with a cyberpunk
> article that appeared in Spin magazine a year or two ago.
>
> This news has caused me great excitement and palpitation.  I have been
> watching Locus & SF Chronicle for mention of news like this.  I only
> recall seeing statements about his screenplay work.

Well, when you get your March 88 issue of Locus, you will see in the
People&Publishing column:

   WILLIAM GIBSON has turned in Mona Lisa Overdrive to Bantam.  The British
   edition from Gollancz, scheduled for April, will precede the U.S.
   edition, scheduled for November.

My understanding is that the Concordes are already booked solid for the
month of April and that the Louvre is going to send the Mona Lisa on tour
as part of the promo -- oops, wrong reality.

BOB
webber@athos.rutgers.edu
rutgers!athos.rutgers.edu!webber

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 19:51:33 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: "All You Zombies"

reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov (Reiher) writes:
>The author in question is Robert A. Heinlein.  The story is in one of his
>short story collections. (I misremember which one.)  He also wrote another
>story similar called _By_His_Bootstraaps_. (Also a short story.)

Actually, I think BHB was more like a Novella.  AYZ is collected in "The
Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" (alternate title: "6xH"), which
also has most of Heinlein's shorter Fantasy.  Must reading, even if you
don't like Fantasy -- and anyway, Heinlein used to write Hard Fantasy,
which is analogous to Hard Science Fiction.  (Now the greatest SF writer
ever just babbles into a recorder.  What a waste.)  The title story simply
defies description -- just remember, The Bird is Cruel!

Superficially, BHB and AYZ are similar Time Travel stories about people
trying to untangle the knots you create when you abuse the Fourth
Dimension.  And both rely heavily on Shock of Recognition for their
entertainment value (neither story makes any sense until the very last page
- -- at which time the story suddenly becomes perfectly logical and
consistent).  But "All You Zombies" is far more sophisticated -- and is one
of my all time favorites.  But to enjoy it you have to read it *very*
carefully (remember that Paradoxes Can Be Paradoctored!) and overlook some
Future History that didn't come true -- plus a bit of genetic theory that
isn't widely accepted.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 07:58:27 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: "All You Zombies" 

I expect I will be one of many but I will yield to temptation.

>Are we getting into recursive time loops?  knotty-knotty.  I actually like
>stories about this type of thing.  How many of you out there have read
>"All You Zombies"?  I forget the author (I'm sure someone will post it),
>but it is a story with only one person skewing time wildly.  It (he/she/it
>is a hermaphrodite) and is it's own ancestor.  (I'm not saying how close
>to not ruin the story.)  If the story were told outside the context of
>this author's telling, it would sound absurd.

>No, no, no. The novel you describe is called "The Man Who Folded Himself";
>I want to say it's by David Gerrold, but I may be wrong. "All You
>Zombies," if I recall, is a Heinlein short story to which someone else
>will doubtless post a matching description...

1.  The original poster was right -- the short story is "All You Zombies"
by Robert Heinlein.  The key word is hermaphrodite.  The narrator of the
story is his own mother and father, courtesy of a time machine and a sex
change operation.  Except for a few key incidents the narrator is not at
the same place and time as earlier versions of himself.  The final lines
are among the great lines of SF.

2.  "The Man Who Folded Himself" is by David Gerrold.  In some ways this is
the ultimate wild time travel novel.  The narrator is not a hermaphrodite.
The mechanism of time travel permits alteration of the past, time loops,
recursion, multiple copies of the same person, etc.  He is not
hermaphroditic but he is homosexual (with himself only).  There is a female
version of him and in some time loops they meet, mate, and produce
themselves, sometimes male and sometimes female.  It all works (as far as I
can tell).  TMWFH is probably the tour de force time travel novel -- AYZ
carried to its logical conclusion.  It's not a bad read, pleasant enough,
but more a tour de force than a striking work.  

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 7 Mar 1988         Volume 13 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Herbert (6 msgs) &
                      Larrabeiti & Pournelle & Powers

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 19:38:01 GMT
From: ucscc!uport!dougm@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Doug Moran)
Subject: Re: "All You Zombies"

jason@hpcndm.HP.COM (Jason Zions) writes:
> No, no, no. The novel you describe is called "The Man Who Folded
> Himself"; I want to say it's by David Gerrold, but I may be wrong. "All
> You Zombies," if I recall, is a Heinlein short story to which someone
> else will doubtless post a matching description...

Heinlein loves this kind of story.  I can think of at least three that run
on this exact theme: "All You Zombies," "By His Bootstraps," and the Novel
(Novella, novelette?) _The Door Into Summer_.  And they are all pretty good
stories.  He does this as well as anyone, I think.

Doug Moran
UUCP: {ihnp4,hplabs,decwrl}!amdcad!uport!dougm
ARPA: uport!dougm@ucscc.UCSC.EDU		

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 18:35:57 GMT
From: larry@jc3b21.uucp (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: "All You Zombies"

jason@hpcndm.HP.COM (Jason Zions) writes:
>>Are we getting into recursive time loops?  knotty-knotty.  I actually
>>like stories about this type of thing.  How many of you out there have
>>read "All You Zombies"?  I forget the author (I'm sure someone will post
>>it),
> No, no, no. The novel you describe is called "The Man Who Folded
> Himself"; I want to say it's by David Gerrold, but I may be wrong. "All
> You Zombies," if I recall, is a Heinlein short story to which someone
> else will doubtless post a matching description...

Well, actually, the description given pretty well fits the story "All you
zombies" as well as "The Man Who Folded Himself".  In all you zombies,
there is just one character who appears in three (uh, make that four)
different forms:

   Form A: A woman who allows herself to be seduced by a fast talking
           stranger.  She becomes pregnant, gives birth to a baby girl who
           is stolen from the hospital.  In the process, it is found out
           she has duplicate reproductive organs (sort of a hermaphrodite)
           and is turned into a man.
   Form B: The now man who is a writer of women's stories.  He is captured
           by a time-traveling agent for a government operation and taken
           back in time where he seduces himself and is then taken back
           forward in time to be inducted into said government operation.
   Form C: The government agent who is the one who captures the man (Form
           B) and takes him back in time to seduce him(her)self (Form A).
           Later the agent steals the baby from the hospital, takes it
           still FURTHER back in time.
   Form D: The baby.  The baby becomes Form A when it grows up.

For reading a first time, its both cute and interesting.  After a second
reading, you never want to see it again.  I believe it was an outgrowth of
a much earlier Heinlein short story, called "By his bootstraps", but I'm
not sure if that one was by Heinlein.

Lawrence F. Strickland
St. Petersburg Junior College 
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
+1 813 341 4705
..gatech!codas!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry
...gatech!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 23:58:30 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>When you read Herbert's published comments about the _Dune_ books, things
>get confused further.  He claimed that they were were written to discredit
>hero worship, yet they are as fine a portrayal of a successful hero as you
>can get in SF.  He claimed to have conceived the first three books as a
>unit, which I find very difficult to believe.  I have read a half dozen or
>more of his other books, as a duty, and I'm always disoriented by how
>_bad_ most of his other fiction really is.  As many here have remarked,
>_Under Pressure_ is the best of his non-Dune books.  Some, like
>_Hellstrom's Hive_ are silly; others, like _Destination VoiD_, Are nearly
>unreadable.  Some, like _The Santaroga Barrier_, or _Whipping Star_, have
>good moments, but suffer from fatal structural flaws.

I have read perhaps more books by Frank Herbert than any other SF author. I
agree that his writing style was anything but consistent. When his last
Dune book came out, I happened to see a review of it in the New York Times
Book Review while waiting in an optical store's waiting room. It said
something like, "Frank Herbert was plagued throughout his career by a
wildly varying style."

Short summary of how I felt about those of his books I have read:

DUNE:  very good
Next 2 Dune books:  nothing happened in them -- empty
Last 3 Dune books: massive and overwrought. The plot is just too juggernaut
  in nature. These books go along for millions of pages *setting up* the
  action, then have to resolve it in the last 30. This style is very
  similar to that of Henry James (for those among you who may be sheltered,
  James was a 19th century "literary" writer), who talks and talks and
  talks and hardly says a thing, then wraps everything up in a couple of
  pages.
WHIPPING STAR:  sort of silly
THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT (WS's sequel): much better than WS, but I read this
  when I was about 12, so I don't remember too well
THE GODMAKERS:  silly plot but well written
THE GREEN BRAIN:  another of Herbert's ridiculous "environmental" novels
  where insects take over the earth...
THE WHITE PLAGUE: Berkeley publishers doesn't even consider this SF, though
  it is beyond a doubt. Very good book.
THE JESUS INCIDENT and THE LAZARUS EFFECT (sequel to JI): co-authored by
  Bill Ransom. Probably the very best 2 novels by Herbert I have read.
  Excellent SF.
MAN OF TWO WORLDS: co-authored by Frank's son Brian Herbert. I believe
  Herbert was writing this when he died, and his son finished it. Still,
  having read Brian Herbert's SUDANNA, SUDANNA, it is evident that Brian
  had a strong influence throughout. You can see Frank's behemoth (boring)
  plots tempered by Brian's sense of whimsy and subtle social satire.
  Still, I think the mix only achieves an average rating. This book seemed
  to get more and more utterly ridiculous as it went along.

Overall I think Brian the better writer, though he doesn't pretend to
create these utterly mammoth plots that bog things down with their
interleaving intricacies. At first he seems silly and trite, but upon
closer inspection you see that he has profound messages on the human
condition and human foibles -- messages that are mostly lacking in his
father's work.

I'd like to hear from any of you what you think about this point.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 16:31:54 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.uucp (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>He claimed that they were were written to discredit hero worship, yet they
>are as fine a portrayal of a successful hero as you can get in SF.

Think again.  They are a portrayal of a man forced against his will to be a
"messiah," knowing that the result of his elevation will be a tremendous
bloody jihad which will sweep the universe and kill uncounted innocents,
and *completely* powerless to stop it -- except by giving up his quest for
vengeance, and this he will not do.  His vengeance completed, he tries
twice (in MESSIAH and, as "the Prophet," in CHILDREN) to forestall some of
the worst effects of his religion -- and fails.  The story of Paul-Muad'Dib
is the story of a failure -- the story of the tremendous evil that comes
from hero-worship.

>He claimed to have conceived the first three books as a unit, which I find
>very difficult to believe.

Believe it.  In the very useful book THE JOHN W. CAMPBELL LETTERS, VOL. I,
a letter to Herbert is printed which shows that the conception of the "Dune
trilogy" was essentially complete *as*a*trilogy* at the time.  What time
was this?  The early 1960s, when Herbert sold the first part of DUNE to
Campbell as a serial.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 03:55:10 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: More Dune books?

mentat@auscso.UUCP (Robert Dorsett) writes:
>Personally, I have enjoyed all the books (with the exception of DUNE
>MESSIAH), and look forward to the last two, should they ever be published.
>Perhaps someone on the net could confirm this: shortly after CHAPTERHOUSE
>was pub- lished, Time or Newsweek ran a story indicating that the sequel
>to CHAPTER - HOUSE was already at the publisher.  I half-expected a rush
>printing after Herbert died, but I haven't heard of anything.  There was
>also an indication in the article that he had already started work on the
>sequel's sequel, with his son (which could have been a confused reference
>to MAN OF TWO WORLDS).

Well, Chapterhouse had, on the cover, something like, "The Grand Conclusion
to the Dune Saga," and it had an afterword Herbert wrote that was really a
touching memorial to his deceased wife -- the kind of stuff that only gets
tacked onto the end of a mass-market edition of anything if the author just
died. I think it also says in the intro that it is the last novel he wrote
by himself before his death.

Also, Man of Two Worlds I believe claims to be his last work of all, co-
authored by his son Brian.

I could be wrong in believing that there will be no more Dune books from
*Frank* Hebert, but I think the chances that I am are slim.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 07:26:13 GMT
From: mentat@auscso.uucp (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>>He claimed that they were were written to discredit hero worship, yet
>>they are as fine a portrayal of a successful hero as you can get in SF.
>Think again.  They are a portrayal of a man forced against his will to be
>a "messiah" [...]  The story of Paul-Muad'Dib is the story of a failure --
>the story of the tremendous evil that comes from hero-worship.

That's the story, but the mechanism is to make a hero--Paul Muad'Dib!  His
"heroism" included the realization of the immense chaos that he would have
to cause and his subsequent denial of all power (a virtuous act), his pop
"supernatural" qualities, etc.  His actions to "forestall" the inevitable
is another "heroic" act.  The *character* is very much a hero, his "thirst
for vengeance" a function of his conscience.  He's a *tragic* figure, but
that doesn't exclude the nature of the character.

However, perhaps the original poster meant to say that Herbert wanted to
discredit *tyranny*, but again, the "conscientious" tyrants in DUNE were
all fairly respectable human beings (and worms :-)).  I think it's perhaps
a mistake to put too much credence into his "having" to have had a message;
the only logical one that I can reach (WAY out) for is that current-day
tyrants really ought to care for their people more.  Not *quite* earth-
shattering news...:-) I think Herbert was just trying to spin a good yarn.

>>He claimed to have conceived the first three books as a unit, which I
>>find very difficult to believe.
>
>Believe it.  In the very useful book THE JOHN W. CAMPBELL LETTERS, VOL. I,
>a letter to Herbert is printed which shows that the conception of the
>"Dune trilogy" was essentially complete *as*a*trilogy* at the time.  What
>time was this?  The early 1960s, when Herbert sold the first part of DUNE
>to Campbell as a serial.

Yes, but DUNE MESSIAH was a very poorly written hodgepodge of ideas, and,
if memory serves me correctly, was a literally-transcribed adaptation of a
magazine serial.  It could have stood a lot more work, and seems indicative
of an attempt to resolve an unworkable story outline.  If he did conceive
of three books, I doubt if Herbert fleshed them out very much before
writing them.  The way I see the publication dates is that Herbert tried to
capitalize on the popularity of DUNE with DUNE MESSIAH, got bad reviews on
that one, then took his time working on the third one.

Personally, I have enjoyed all the books (with the exception of DUNE
MESSIAH), and look forward to the last two, should they ever be published.
Perhaps someone on the net could confirm this: shortly after CHAPTERHOUSE
was pub- lished, Time or Newsweek ran a story indicating that the sequel to
CHAPTER - HOUSE was already at the publisher.  I half-expected a rush
printing after Herbert died, but I haven't heard of anything.  There was
also an indication in the article that he had already started work on the
sequel's sequel, with his son (which could have been a confused reference
to MAN OF TWO WORLDS).

Regardless of the rest of the books, I think we're all agreed that DUNE
(the first book) is truly great science fiction, and deserving of a much
better screen adaptation than it got.  DUNE's much like "The Lord of the
Rings", though, a very difficult story to represent.

Robert Dorsett
University of Texas
at Austin
{allegra,ihnp4}!ut-emx!walt.cc.utexas.edu!mentat
mentat@walt.cc.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 13:01:08 GMT
From: eric@cfi.com (eric)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

> I have read a half dozen or more of his other books, as a duty, and I'm
> always disoriented by how _bad_ most of his other fiction really is.  As
> many here have remarked, _Under Pressure_ is the best of his non-Dune
> books.

One vote for _The Dosadi Incident_ as a good read.  There's a certain
amount of sloppiness, but the two main themes - the severe societal
pressures of living on a poisoned planet, and a system of law where the
winning lawyer is killed ;-), were so powerfully depicted that it was one
of the few books I literally could not put down until I was through - both
times I read it.

...rutgers!!husc6!necntc!ima!cfisun!eric

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 88 03:45:55 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!vsi1!steve@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Steve Maurer)
Subject: Re: The movie Dune

>But Herbert was involved in the production and liked the result.  Makes
>you wonder if he even wrote the book.  Especially since the sequels are so
>different and so bad.  My own theory (well, it came up in a discussion a
>while back) is that he wrote only the sequels.  Perhaps he won the "Dune"
>manuscript in a poker game.  Or stole it.

    The way I heard it, "Dune" was strongly edited (i.e. re-written) by a
strong editor.  Thus, the work that made him famous he really wasn't
responsible for.

Steve Maurer

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 06:15:28 GMT
From: c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu (Margaret S Pai)
Subject: Fantasy

While we're on fantasy, has anyone besides me read Michael de Larrabeiti's
_Borrible_ books (_The Borribles_, _The Borribles Go For Broke_, and _The
Borribles: Across the Dark Metropolis_)?  The latest one, _The Borribles:
AtDM_ was printed in England in '86 and only just printed here recently by
Ace.  I want to know if lack of sales is threatening this series, which is
great fun.  So, has anyone even heard of it?

Margaret Pai
c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 19:03:25 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Janissaries III

The main thing we learn from reading Janissaries III, by Pournelle and
Green, is that there will be a Janissaries IV and almost surely a
Janissaries V before the tale is told.  Aside from that, no surprises.

I'm told that the reason we see so many movie sequels is that the sequel to
a popular movie is reliably expected to gross two thirds of what its
predecessor did.  If the original was successful, then that makes the
sequel a sure thing rather than the gamble which an original movie is.
Does anyone know if the relevant proportion for science fiction sequels is
also two thirds?

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 01:54:40 GMT
From: msellers@mntgfx.mentor.com (Mike Sellers)
Subject: "On Stranger Tides" by Tim Powers

I don't have time to generate a full-blown review of this book just now,
but I was wondering if anyone else has read it?  (I've seen one mention of
it in the frp group, but none in the SF group).  This is an excellent book
with well-drawn characters and a good view of sailing in the 1700's, magic,
piracy, etc., with a good touch of Cthuloid-type mythology thrown in in the
guise of for-real voo-doo (voudon).  It has a lot of action with just the
right amount of humor added to keep it from getting too frenetic.

I strongly recommend reading this book.  A +3 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mike Sellers
Mentor Graphics Corp., EPAD            
...!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx!msellers
msellers@mntgfx.MENTOR.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 7 Mar 1988         Volume 13 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:

	   Books - Lewis (4 msgs) & Lovecraft & Niven (5 msgs) &
                   Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Zelazny & 
                   Cyberpunk References (2 msgs) 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 21:37:25 GMT
From: nick@ccicpg.uucp (Nick Crossley)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis, _The Chronicals Of Narnia_.

I was waiting for one of the many follow-ups to mention this, but none have
done so yet, so I will...  One of the most obvious Christian symbols in the
books between 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe' and 'The Last Battle'
is in 'The Voyage of the Dawn Treader'.  Near the end of the book, when the
children are on a small island, Aslan appears as a Lamb (CS Lewis capital,
not mine!).

Nick Crossley
9801 Muirlands
Irvine, CA 92718-2521
(714) 458-7282
...!uunet!ccicpg!nick

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 06:42:44 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis

milne@ICS.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
>I rather felt this too.  There seemed to be no real reason Susan would
>have strayed.  It was the only part of the story I felt to be contrived.

   I disagree -- I don't think that it was contrived, I think that it was
foreshadowed, and that there is a very good reason for it, and that reason
is an important part of the larger story.

   To put it simply, Narnia is for children, and Susan left childhood
behind.  One of the requirements for being a royal child who could be
called to Narnia is that you are a child, with all that implies about
innocence.  There comes a time when you can't go to Narnia anymore, when
you cross a threshhold and become aware of wordly adult pleasures.  Susan
passed that threshold because she was older; the others hadn't.

   It isn't even the case that Susan is going to hell, as someone worried.
Her story isn't told yet.  She is part of this world and that story will be
told here.

   It is sad that she could not be part of the magic permanently.  However
none of us can retain the magic of childhood permanently, save on pain of
being a child forever, and you cannot do that in this world.  It is
important thing to realize, and I think Lewis was right to put it in.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 21:45:40 GMT
From: wlinden@dasys1.uucp (William Linden)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis

milne@ICS.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:

>In fact, I can't even think offhand of any that since that imitates them
>(this must be wrong -- they can't be completely unemulated).  

Yes, there are the blatant, godawful (if that is the word) imitations by
William Allen White. These are THE TOWER OF GEBURAH and THE IRON SCEPTER as
well as a more recent prequel, all from Inter-Varsity Press. The "critics"
who keep howling "religious tracts" and "overbearing propaganda" at Lewis
should be confined in a room with these so they can see what a _real_
overbearing religious tract is like.  Nobody with literary judgement could
confuse White's style, which bristles with blatant "message" allegory, and
thinks the way to write for children is to keep archly talking down to
them, with Lewis' exquisitely realized world and natural diction.

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 04:01:18 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: CS Lewis, _The Chronicles Of Narnia_.

jstehma@hubcap.UUCP (Jeff Stehman) writes:

>   I have read _The Chronicles of Narnia_, as well as the space trilogy,
>_Pilgrim's Regress_, and _The Screwtape Letters_.  I found TCON very
>enjoyable, whether I ignore the symbolism or not.  I failed to make it
>through the space trilogy the first time I tried (I was rather young), but
>I did enjoy it, especially the second two books.  I find it interesting
>that there is apparently more fuss about TCON than about Lewis' portrayal
>of Merlin and his heathen magic.
>
>   I like _The Screwtape Letters_ the best, but, if any discussion about
>this book has been on the net, I missed it.  Anybody else like it -- hate
>it?

   I thought _The Screwtape Letters_ were marvelous.  There is a cute story
about them.  They were originally run serially in an English journal.  A
country pastor, obviously missing the point, wrote in protesting that the
advice given in the letters was not theologically sound, and indeed, in
some cases was positively diabolical.

   I also like _The Great Divorce_, in which the damned take holidays to
Heaven (the outskirts thereof) and are presented with the choice of going
on or returning back.

   One of the things that I like about Lewis is his ability to create
striking and emotionally satisfying places.  In TGD his hell (which is not
hell itself, but hell in the process of becoming) is an apparently endless
gray town, filled with insubstantial buildings, and filled with self
centered people who making the transition from being a grumbler to being a
grumble.

   Personally, I much preferred the first two books of the space trilogy.
I read Perelandra when I was quite young, and the other two much later.
The story of Perelandra never struck me as a strong story, but Perelandra,
the world, and the emotional tone are haunting.

   I suspect that the reason for the fuss about TCON is that they are more
upsetting if you have hostile feelings towards Christianity than the other
Lewis works.  The only people who would be upset about Merlin's heathen
magic that I can think of would be hardline fundamentalists who wouldn't
read something like the space trilogy to begin with.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 19:48:16 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft

KANDERSON@hampvms.BITNET (Keith Anderson) writes:
>I know this is a lot to ask, but can anyone provide a full list (in order)
>of Lovecraft's books?  I'm one of those people who like to read books in
>their story's order (I haven't even read McCaffery's Dragon books yet(!)).

As luck would have it I still have a copy of the list someone posted
sometime back...

The only one that I have included (that was not in that bibliography) is
"The-Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath".  I am saying that this piece of prose
was written 1925-6 because, in the introduction (written by Lin Carter), it
states that "[This] short novel (it is only 38,000 words) was written, for
the most part, during 1926" and that in December of that year, Lovecraft
wrote to August Derleth describing Dream Quest; so the novel must have been
started in 1925.

This introduction also mentions the names of Lord Dunsany (who influenced
Lovecraft's writing) & George MacDonald (who predated Lovecraft), who wrote
stories similar to Lovecraft.

H. P. Lovecraft:

1917:   Dagon
1917:   The Tomb
1918:   Polaris
1918:   Beyond the Wall of Sleep
1919:   The Doom That Came to Sarnath
1919:   The Statement of Randolph Carter
1919:   The White Ship
1920:   Arthur Jermyn (The White Ape)
1920:   The Cats of Ulthar
1920:   Celephais
1920:   From Beyond
1920:   The Picture in the House
1920:   The Temple
1920:   The Terrible Old Man
1920:   The Tree
1921:   The Moon-Bog
1921:   The Music of Erich Zann
1921:   The Nameless City
1921:   The Other Gods
1921:   The Outsider
1921:   The Quest of Iranon
1921-2: Herbert West: Reanimator
1922:   The Hound
1922:   Hypnos
1922:   The Lurking Fear
1923:   The Festival
1923:   The Rats in the Walls
1923:   The Unnamable
1924:   Imprisoned with the Pharaohs
1924:   The Shunned House
1925:   He
1925:   The Horror at Red Hook
1925:   In the Vault
1925-6: The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
1926:   The Call of Cthulhu
1926:   Cool Air
1926:   Pickman's Model
1926:   The Silver Key
1926:   The Strange-High House in the Mist
1927:   The Colour out of Space
1927-8: The Case of Charles Dexter Ward
1928:   The Dunwich Horror
1930:   The Whisperer in Darkness
1931:   The Shadow over Innsmouth
1931:   At the Mountains of Madness
1932:   The Dreams in the Witch-House
1932:   Through the Gates of the Silver Key
1933:   The Thing on the Doorstep
1934:   The Shadow out of Time
1935:   In the Walls of Eryx
1935:   The Haunter of the Dark
1937:   The Evil Clergyman

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 88 20:13:36 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

brun@husc4.UUCP (Todd Brun) writes:
>> mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>>Nessus was insane [....] This makes him a lousy specimen of the race to
>>determine their mental characteristics from.
>
>[...] _The Ringworld Engineers_ [...] features (gasp of shock) the
>Hindmost [...] most assuredly a normal Puppeteer.  Remarkably (??) he and
>the Hindmost behaved rather similarly in most situations, so Nessus isn't
>that atypical, evidently.

The old Hindmost was most certainly insane by Puppeteer standards; this was
discussed throughout _Engineers_.

>Also, there were puppeteers in a number of other Known Space stories,
>mostly in bit parts, but giving some sample.  So Nessus isn't the *only*
>example.>

In every one, you meet a Puppeteer that was considered insane by their
standards, although I suspect their levels of insanity vary quite a bit.

In the case of the puppeteers, I'd say that humans would have a hard time
understanding their idea of insanity.  After all, it seemed sane to them to
move their entire planet -- twice.

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 20:36:30 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>    Nessus was insane in more than just bravery. As you recall he was also
> a manic depressive. This makes him a lousy specimen of the race to
> determine their mental characteristics from.

Maybe *all* normal puppeteers are manic-depressive.  Nessus' depression
might even be seen by other puppeteers as a hopeful symptom of potential
sanity, seeing what Nessus is getting himself in for.  But the following
reversion to high spirits would definitely be a bad sign, from their point
of view.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 18:59:31 GMT
From: amb@morningside.columbia.edu (Andrew M Boardman)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

brun@husc4.UUCP (Todd Brun) writes:
>sample.  So Nessus isn't the *only* example.  Remarkably (??) he and the
>Hindmost behaved rather similarly in most situations, so Nessus isn't that
>atypical, evidently.

The problem with this viewpoint is thus: From the human point of view,
puppeteers are paranoid to the extent that we couldn't readily distinguish
between a 'sane' one and an 'insane' one anyway.

BITNET: amb%morningside@CUVMA.BITNET
INTERNET: amb@morningside.columbia.edu 
	  amb%morningside@columbia.edu 
USENET:	...!uunet!columbia!morningside!amb

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 12:32:31 GMT
From: wwd@rruxjj.uucp (bill donahue)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

The impression I had gotten was that the Hindmost would have to be
considered insane because of her(?)  bravery. She was called `hindmost'
because she would be the last to flee with the rest of the puppeteers.

I think I have the pronouns right, the Hindmost was a she wasn't it?

I think Nessus had some other insanity at any rate he(?) was mated to the
Hindmost (if memory doesn't fail me!)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 06:20:53 GMT
From: mok@pawl20.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

>Maybe *all* normal puppeteers are manic-depressive.  Nessus' depression
>might even be seen by other puppeteers as a hopeful symptom of potential
>sanity, seeing what Nessus is getting himself in for.  But the following
>reversion to high spirits would definately be a bad sign, from their point
>of view.

   Sorry, but by definition, "normal" refers to the majority. If you mean
the "sane" puppeteers are manic-ddepressive I still have to disagree as his
mental illness DID get in the way of his ability to function.

mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 20:24:35 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: The Pilgrim Series by Fred Saberhagen

Gowan@cup.portal.com writes:
>    Has anyone ever read the time travel book by Saberhagen called "A
> Century in Progress"? I thought it was well written, but it got a bit
> confusing near the end.

That should be "A Century of Progress", which was the slogan for the 1939
World's Fair.

> Also, were there any other books connected to this one?

Not that I know of, but I can't seem to get the time (or funds) to read
every published SF paperback...:}

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 14:51:42 GMT
From: Q2816@pucc.princeton.edu (Creative Business Decisions)
Subject: Century of Progress (was Saberhagen)

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>Gowan@cup.portal.com writes:
>>    Has anyone ever read the time travel book by Saberhagen called "A
>> Century in Progress"? I thought it was well written, but it got a bit
>> confusing near the end.
 
>That should be "A Century of Progress", which was the slogan for the 1939
>World's Fair.
 
Actually, it was the slogan of the Century of Progress Exhibition, which
was held in Chicago in 1933 to celebrate the city's centennial (according
to one way of counting -- others hold out for the 1837 charter).
 
Very little of this exhibition has survived (as opposed to the 1893 World's
Columbian Exhibition).  Somebody down in Florida has a museum of Century of
Progress junk, I think.
 
Roger Lustig
Q2816@PUCC.BITNET
Q2816@pucc.princeton.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 18:13:40 GMT
From: nj@ndmath.uucp ( ~ )
Subject: Next Amber book?

Hello,

  Is there any word on the release date and title of the next book in the
Amber series (after _Sign of Chaos_)?  I know it's going to be awhile,
but...

  Please email all replies as I don't read sf-lovers regularly.

Thanks...

nj
...!{pur-ee, rutgers, uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 88 20:00:40 GMT
From: DrOdd@cup.portal.com
Subject: Cyberpunk References

What follows are some Cyberpunk media references compiled by Cyberpunk
International. Not all of them are totally Cyberpunk. There is disagreement
about some of these, but all of them have some cyberpunk elements, even if
it is nothing more then a certain mood. Even if the definition of Cyberpunk
is a little strained by some of them, this is a valuble list for anybody
who wants to know what Cyberpunk is all about. If you have anything to add,
I would be obliged if you sent me e-mail so that I can share it with
everybody else.  Enjoy.

Fiction Literature

"Neuromancer" by William Gibson
"Count Zero" by William Gibson
"Hardwired" by Walter Jon Williams
"Voice of the Whirlwind" by Walter Jon Williams
"Burning Chrome" short stories by William Gibson
"The Artificial Kid" by Bruce Sterling
"Schismatrix" by Bruce Sterling
"Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk Anthology" edited by Bruce Sterling
"Shockwave Rider" by John Brunner
Vaccum Flowers by Michael Swanwick
"Dr. Adder" by J.K. Jeter
"Software" by Rudy Rucker
"Nova" by Samuel Delany
"The Running Man" by Richard Bachman
"A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess
"Nova Express" by William Burroughs
"Nova" by Samuel Delaney
"Little Heroes" by Norman Spinard
"When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger
"Eclipse" by John Shirley

Non Fiction Literature

"The Media Lab: Inventing the Future at MIT" by Steward Brand
"The Third Wave" by Alvin Toffler
"Future Shock" by Alvin Toffler
"Technologies of Freedom: On Free Speech on an Electronic Age" by Ithiel de
   Sola Pool

Movies

Bladerunner
Repo Man
Liquid Sky
Cafe Flesh
Mad Max
The Road Warrior
Mad Max III: Beyond Thunderdome
The Terminator
Alien
Videodrome
Scanners
Robocop
Rollerball

Video

Max Headroom (ABC Series)
Alive From Off Center (PBS Series)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 23:41:24 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk References

Nonfiction:
Marvin Minsky: Society of Mind
50% of all that Whole Earth Review publishes, including the mag itself.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 8 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Grimwood & Herbert & Powers &
                           Sheckley & Verne & Vinge & 
                           Arthurian Stories (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 23:35:26 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: REPLAY by Ken Grimwood

			  REPLAY by Ken Grimwood
		   Berkley, 1988 (c1987), 0-425-10640-3
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     WHAT IF you could live your life over and over again?

     That's the back-cover blurb to this unique alternate worlds/time
travel novel.  And that's the chance Jeff Winston gets when he wakes up
from his fatal heart attack to find himself back in college.  He resolves
that things will be different this time--and they are, in part because he,
like so many other time travelers, can remember the outcomes of all sorts
of sporting events to bet on.  (Quick, who won the 1963 World Series?)  But
soon 1988 rolls around again and bang! heart attack and he's back in 1963
again.  And round it goes.

     In one cycle he meets Pamela, another replayer.  Together they try to
make sense of what's happening.  It's not easy--forewarned is not
necessarily forearmed and, as in so many time travel stories, trying to
improve history often backfires.  And Winston discovers that often the
knowledge that "next time" he could do things differently makes his
decisions this time seem meaningless.  But he keeps trying to change
things.  Sometimes he leads a life of dissipation; other times he tries to
change the world.  Sometimes he tries working behind the scenes; other
times he tells everyone he can predict the future.  (The latter scenario is
particularly chilling.)

     One wonders how a novel such as this could have a satisfying
resolution, but Grimwood manages it very well.  As a unique approach to
alternate history and time travel, REPLAY is highly recommended.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 19:26:04 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Paul Atriedies as hero

From: djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l DanehyOakes)

>macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>>He claimed that they were were written to discredit hero worship, yet
>>they are as fine a portrayal of a successful hero as you can get in SF.
>
>Think again.  They are a portrayal of a man forced against his will to be
>a "messiah," knowing that the result of his elevation will be a tremendous
>bloody jihad which will sweep the universe and kill uncounted innocents,
>and *completely* powerless to stop it -- except by giving up his quest for
>vengeance, and this he will not do.  His vengeance completed, he tries
>twice (in MESSIAH and, as "the Prophet," in CHILDREN) to forestall some of
>the worst effects of his religion -- and fails.  The story of
>Paul-Muad'Dib is the story of a failure -- the story of the tremendous
>evil that comes from hero-worship.

That's one interpretation.  I prefer to see it as the story of a man who
took a rotting, decadent empire and tore along the dotted line.  I thought
that his internal struggles came from >not< taking the alternate-future
paths that precipitated even worse horrors, preferring instead a path that
lead to his own blindness and ignominy rather than one which (as is broadly
hinted at in _God-Emperor of Dune_) would result in Berserker-like machines
exterminating all life in the universe, or equally appalling scenarios.

Of course, I'm writing from an aristocratic POV that regards history as the
story of individual men, not the proverbial cast of thousands, so the DUNE
saga appeals to me from this perspective.  As far as Herbert's motives go,
as a friend of mine commented, his subconscious was a better writer than he
was.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 01:54:40 GMT
From: msellers@mntgfx.mentor.com (Mike Sellers)
Subject: "On Stranger Tides" by Tim Powers

I don't have time to generate a full-blown review of this book just now,
but I was wondering if anyone else has read it?  (I've seen one mention of
it in the frp group, but none in the SF group).  This is an excellent book
with well-drawn characters and a good view of sailing in the 1700's, magic,
piracy, etc., with a good touch of Cthuloid-type mythology thrown in in the
guise of for-real voo-doo (voudon).  It has a lot of action with just the
right amount of humor added to keep it from getting too frenetic.

I strongly recommend reading this book.  A +3 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mike Sellers
Mentor Graphics Corp., EPAD            
...!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx!msellers
msellers@mntgfx.MENTOR.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 10:41:00 GMT
From: BREEBAAR@hlerul5.bitnet
Subject: Re: Sheckley

Lisa writes:
> I'm a big Sheckley fan, although I have to qualify that: I love his short
> stories, but his novels are pretty lousy.

My sentiments *exactely*!

Isaac agrees also, and writes:
> ... Now that I think of it, Adams must have been influenced by this
> [Sheckley's 'Dimension Of Miracles'] when he wrote the "Hitchhiker's
> Guide".

'Influenced' is perhaps a euphemism here... Did you also read 'Mindswap' ?
Deja vu all the way for the Hitchhiker's fans. As much as I like Douglas
Adams' work (and I really do), I'm afraid he is not nearly as original as
many people think him to be. Sheckley's done it all before: the same crazy
ideas, the same style, everything.

A few months back I posted something to this effect, but nobody reacted.  I
am glad to know now that I am not the only one to notice it.

Only trouble with Sheckley is that these novels ('Mindswap', 'Options',
etc.)  start out great, but then about halfway through they become - for me
- - completely unreadable because of the surrealistic stream-of-consciousness
mess they suddenly turn into.

Leo Breebaart
Leiden
The Netherlands
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 10:42:00 GMT
From: BREEBAAR@hlerul5.bitnet
Subject: Jules Verne

*** MAJOR SPOILER COMING UP - READ EVERYTHING BY JULES VERNE FIRST...***

Evelyn Leeper on splitting novels in parts and calling the result a
'trilogy':
> I wish to point out a book that I just finished reading which does
> this. It is Jules Verne's INTO THE NIGER BEND ...

Come to think of it, this is not the only way in which Jules Verne predates
a 'modern' trend. Everybody is familiar with the way in which people like
Asimov are writing novels in which all their seperate and earlier
'universes' come together. But this also was done long ago by Verne!

It's in 'The Mysterious Island', a story about five men (and a dog) who
escape from a Southern prison camp during the American Civil War in a
balloon, and get stranded on an uninhabited island where they have to live
for years, and where some very strange things start happening.

Not only is this one of my all-time favourite novels - I must've read it
dozens and dozens of times - but it will also give readers who already know
'20.000 Whatchamacallits Under The Sea' and 'Captain Grant's children' some
very pleasant surprises. Ever wondered what happened to Captain Nemo?

Of course, simply by having read this posting, you will not get as great a
thrill as I did, when I read it completely unsuspecting the very first
time, and it just hit me right between the eyes.

I do not know the actual English titles of the novels I've mentioned, so I
just translated the Dutch ones. Maybe Evelyn knows...?

Leo Breebaart
Leiden
The Netherlands
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 06:32:11 GMT
From: mok@pawl20.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Orion and other Errors

>> "Orion" describes a particular method of propulsion first conceived by
>> Freeman Dyson, which involves setting off nukes behind your spacecraft
>> and riding the shockwaves.
>
>I think the Orion propulsion concept first appeared in a paper from the
>British Interplanetary Society.  (This will surely generate some
>heat...I've probably spelled the Society's name wrong.)

   Just thought that I'd mention (without a good excuse) that Vernor Vinge
uses this method of propulsion in "Marooned in Realtime." Only Vinge uses a
*slightly* more drastic version. He sets off the nukes about 3 feet from
the ship. Needless to say this is more effective than just riding the
shockwave. Of course a timed stasis field DOES make this a smoother ride.

mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 13:59:52 GMT
From: dzoey@umd5.umd.edu (Joe Herman)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

>Perhaps my favorite Arthurian work to go back and read excerpts from is
>Gillian Bradshaw's trilogy, _Hawk of May_, _Kingdom of Summer_, and _In
>Winter's Shadow_.

I agree with this statement.  Gillian Bradshaw's trilogy is wonderful
reading.  The best part is you really understand the characters and what
they're going through.  The books pull you in and really make you feel the
potential and ultimatly the hopelessness of what characters are trying to
achieve.  The third book is very depressing.  That's not her fault, it's
the nature of the legend (and also most O.E. and Norse sagas.  They tend to
be patterned in a dark-light-dark sequence as opposed to the modern
dark-light-dark-light (I wish I could remember the proper terms for those)
sequence.  But I digress.)  I don't know if the books are still in print.
I found my copies in a used book store and they were pretty old.

One thing always puzzled me about Bradshaw.  I've never found any other
books written by her.  Does anyone know if she has written anything else?

Joe Herman
dzoey@terminus.umd.edu
dzoey@umdd.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 08:38:54 GMT
From: greely@teak.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark C. Carroll <MC>) writes:
>Also, I wanted to throw in a good word for my favorite Arthurian novel,
>The Mists of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer-Bradley.

I recently inherited this book, and forced myself to read it.  It is very
different, and the only way I could describe it is, "A Feminist Lackey in
King Arthur's Pants".

  Oh, yeah :-)

greely@satcom3.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 05:08:54 GMT
From: mctst@cisunx.uucp (Mary C. Tabasko)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

pax@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>You forgot _Iydlls of the King_  by Tennyson
>
>And Malory's (I think) _Le Morte de Auther_ 

I thought the original posting requested sf-flavored Arthurian cites, but I
could be wrong. There's always a first time. :) :) :) Now, to get to the
point of all this:

If you're gonna read Malory, read _Malory:_Works_, edited by Eugene
Vinaver, Oxford U. Press. This version is based on a different MS.  than
Caxton's printing of _Le_Morte_D'Arthur_ ("closer than Caxton's text to
what Mallory actually wrote, [and] livlier too."). You may be a bit
intimidated by the 15th century spellings, but don't be. It's pretty easy
to get the hang of and fun, too. (Well, *I* enjoyed it, but I'm a little
sick).

I don't want to post too much about this; it ain't rec.arts.camelot, but
there are zillions of Arthurian stories and texts out there. Seek, and ye
shall find (especially at the library!). :)

Ciao for now,

Mary Tabasko
371 S. Negley Ave., Apt. 5
Pittsburgh, PA 15232
412/362-0544
10345_336101@pittvms.BITNET
mctst@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP
tabasko@idia.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 00:22:08 GMT
From: rja@edison.ge.com (rja)
Subject: Favourite Arthurian Novels ....

I've read most everyone else's favourite, but still haven't seen mine.
Catherine Christian's THE PENDRAGON to me 'feels' best.  Perhaps it is
because it is strongly Celtic unlike the Anglo-Saxon influenced "knights in
shining armor" rubbish.  Of course, those of anglo-saxon heritage will
disagree with me, but as a Celt, I rather take exception to those
modifications.
  Oh, by the way, the author of the "Hawk of May" seemed to be trying to
spell names correctly (consistent with Cymric) and didn't seem to be
deliberately "changed."  Katherine Kurtz also seems to be adopting a Cymric
style and specifically mentions that the Cymric pronunciations are
"correct" for her dominion.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 88 01:03:00 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

I haven't been following this discussion exactly, but if you're looking for
Arthurian books, I strongly recommend _The_Mists_Of_ _Avalon_ by M.
Bradley.  It covers several generations in good detail, and the point of
view of the majority of the novel is, well, interesting.  The review
excerpts on the paperback version were accurate, unlike a good deal of
others that I've read.  Caveat: the book is somewhat long and requires a
good deal of attention.  Not being an expert on the era of Arthur, I can't
comment on how closely the story matches with the original, but it
certainly touches the high points.

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 19:44:31 GMT
From: ames!bnrmtv!takahash@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Alan Takahashi)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> I would like to hear from netlanders about fiction they have read that
> deals with the Arthurian legends.  I don't care if the stories are long
> or short, fantasy or historical fiction, excellent or poor, in- or
> out-of-print, set nowadays or long ago; I want to get a list of stories
> to look for, and an idea of general reactions to those stories.

You might want to try _Firelord_ and _Beloved Exile_ by Parke Godwin.
_Firelord_ deals with King Arthur, and _Beloved Exile_ is about Gueneviere
(sp?) after Arthur's death.  Good reading.

Alan Takahashi
Bell-Northern Research
Mountain View, CA     
...!bnrmtv!takahashi

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 19:48:52 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

In the shorter-length category, there's Roger Zelazny's excellent _The Last
Defender Of Camelot_. Lancelot has survived to the present day, aging very
little. He meets Morgan Le Fey (a gypsy palmist), and discovers that he's
been kept around to protect Merlin, who's about to awaken from his long
slumber. Can't say any more without spoilers, but I highly recommend this
story. It can be found as the title piece in a Zelazny collection of the
same name.

Don Coolidge
hplabs!hpda!dfc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 19:41:34 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

There's also an entry from Andre Norton, called _Merlin's Mirror_.
Merlin's the main character, and he's an alien, of course (well, a sort of
semi-alien, product of a union between his mother and some kind of Remotely
Piloted Vehicle From Outer Space. So are Arthur and Nimue.)...and hidden
hi-tech gadgetry fills his cave, teaches him, and sustains him through
coldsleep at various times.

Now, that sounds pretty boring. The book isn't, though - I found it really
enjoyable. Post-Roman Britain was very well presented, and the civilized
flourishes one normally associates with Arthuriana were totally absent -
even kings' castles were little better than drafty huts. Most characters
were unlikable, and all were severely flawed. Yes, there was idealism (in
some, and some of the time), but it never really triumphed - in part
because both sides were idealistic.

One of the two alien factions (Nimue's) opposed uniting Britain under an
enlightened monarchy - the thought was that a stable social system would
lead to advanced technical progress before comparable social/psychological
evolution occurred, with nuclear Armageddon the likely result. The other
side (Merlin and company) wished for that technical progress to ameliorate
the general misery and squalor that was everyone's lot, regardless of the
potential for future disaster (the "...we'll deal with that one when it
happens..." school of thought). By the end of the book, the line between
the Good Guys and Bad Guys had blurred considerably.

I guess this was never one of Andre Norton's most popular books, but it's
definitely worth a read.

Don Coolidge
hplabs!hpda!dfc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 88 07:11:51 GMT
From: crew@polya.stanford.edu (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

Well, I'll put in a recommendation for Mary Stewart's series:

   The Crystal Cave
   The Hollow Hills
   The Last Enchantment
   The Wicked Day

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 14:25:07 GMT
From: grant@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Grant)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

Of course, don't forget "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

Okay so it's not quite what you are all on about but it's close enough for
me!

Steve Grant.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 15 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Bear & Brust (7 msgs) & Card &
                          Cherryh & Hugh Cook & Dick &
                          Foster & Gaiman

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 15 Mar 88 13:08 CET
From: <PSST001@dtuzdv1.bitnet>
Subject:      Greg Bear's BLOOD MUSIC

Just read Blood Music by Greg Bear.  Left me with some questions.

SPOILERS

Just one day after Bernard notices he's infected, the disease has spread
all over the United States.

Q: Can a disease of any kind really spread *that* fast?

US goes into voluntary self-isolation

Now that is real political fiction. Or would you expect any state to be so
concerned about the welfare of others that it would cut itself off from the
rest of the world?  Or is there an international treaty/agreement/bill/...
about measures to be taken in a similar case?

At the end of the book, the situation that initially seemed so threatening
to mankind is recognized to be 'cool and froody', everybody's so happy
about the development including Suzy (at last stepping through the mirror)
and her family.  It reminds me a bit of Jack Williamson's 'THE HUMANOIDS'
where the strongest opposition later become the most fervent supporters of
the development/new age.

Q: can anyone recommend a book in which a future development that utterly
changes the basic concepts of mankind today is not welcomed as a great step
to a more mature (intergalactic)race, but is the eventual doom of humanity,
comparable to the end of the dinosaurs?  Leaving the protagonists helpless,
facing extinction.

(Anyway, I liked the book)

Michael Maisack
Astronomy Dept
Tuebingen University
Germany

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 88 21:32:12 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Taltos by Steven Brust

On the whole, I found this a quite good exploration of the earlier, more
naive, younger Vlad.  Sadly, I find the older, more cynical, (or, as in
Teckla, less cynical but more troubled and aware) Vlad more fun to read
about.  But the thing that makes me most happy is that the inside cover
lists a book by Brust that I don't have, namely _The_Sun,_the_Moon,_and_
the_Stars_, and that means I can go get it and read it (yay).  But... I
haven't seen hide nor hair of it... has anybody else?  What is it?  Where
can it be gotten?

Oh, yes, the OtherRealms rating.  Oh, I dunno.  Four or five stars or
something.  It's Brust, you know.  He hasn't seriously let me down yet.
Read it.  You'll like it.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 03:39:26 GMT
From: c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu (Margaret S Pai)
Subject: Re: Taltos by Steven Brust

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>But the thing that makes me most happy is that the inside cover lists a
>book by Brust that I don't have, namely _The_Sun,_the_Moon,_and_the_
>Stars_, and that means I can go get it and read it (yay).  But... I
>haven't seen hide nor hair of it... has anybody else?  What is it?  Where
>can it be gotten?

_The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ is, I believe a book of fairy tales by
Steven Brust.  I've only seen it in hardback, but I've seen it in a few
places, B Daltan's being the one I remember.  I haven't read it, so whether
or not the stories are retellings of old classics or ones Brust made up, I
couldn't tell you.  I believe it's on the preliminary ballot for the 1987
Nebula, so even if it weren't Brust, it's a fair bet it's pretty good.

Margaret Pai
c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 17:41:10 GMT
From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: Taltos by Steven Brust

c60b-bb@buddy.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Margaret S Pai) writes:
>_The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ is, I believe a book of fairy tales by
>Steven Brust.  I've only seen it in hardback, but I've seen it in a few
>places, B Dalton's being the one I remember.  I haven't read it, so
>whether or not the stories are retellings of old classics or ones Brust
>made up, I couldn't tell you.  I believe it's on the preliminary ballot
>for the 1987 Nebula, so even if it weren't Brust, it's a fair bet it's
>pretty good.

Well, not really (not really a book of fairy tales, I mean, not "not pretty
good.")  It's actually two stories in one, interwoven in much the same way
as "Taltos" is interwoven between the story of Vlad's early life and the
story of Vlad walking the Paths of the Dead.  One of the stories in "Sun,
Moon, and Stars" is indeed a retelling of an old Hungarian folk tale; the
other story is a straightforward, realistic tale about a struggling art
studio and the young artists who work there.  The two stories are
contrasted against one another, and the trials of the hero in the folk tale
are an analogy for the difficulties experienced by the protagonist of the
present-day tale.  The second story has no "fantastic" or speculative
aspects that I could see.  It works rather well (in my opinion) but it is
NOT action-adventure like the Vlad books.  If you're looking for that,
don't bother.  If you're looking for a thoughtful book dealing primarily
with the struggle for artistic integrity (art for art's sake, as opposed to
art for money), go read it; it's very nicely done.

Jennifer Hawthorne

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 05:08:53 GMT
From: straney@msudoc.ee.mich-state.edu (Ronald W. DeBry)
Subject: Re: Taltos by Steven Brust

I just finished _Taltos_ (which certainly didn't take long, it's an "Amber
series" sized book - not so much a problem, since they at least priced it
at the low end of the current paperback price structure).  I enjoyed it,
but...  IMHO it is the weakest of Brust's work that I've read (I noticed
the "mystery book" listed on the title page - I've never heard of it
either).  Now, don't get me wrong, Brust's weakest is a damn sight better
than many other writer's best.

Why did I think it was weak?  In part, it's just a feeling that the
unarticulated history behind Vlad accounted for much of the of completeness
that the world had.  Brust had done quite a good job in the first three
books - unlike many other worlds, we learned about Deathsgate Falls and the
Paths of the Dead and such from Vlad and Morrolan and the other characters,
rather than from Brust.  Having it all laid out leaves much less to wonder
about.  A fantasy world really comes to life when the pieces that are
described explicitly are vivid enough to allow you to fill in the pieces
that are only hinted at.  Brust had done that.  It's not that my personal
version of the Paths of the Dead was better than Brust's, its that the
ambiguity about the place provided much of its credibility.

The plotting was also a bit weak.  I felt manipulated by the
scene-shifting.  The "early Vlad" story-line affected the "Paths of the
Dead" story-line, but only in an ultimate sense.  The two could be read
separately, and each would as complete as they are with Brust's
presentation.  In fact, several times I was tempted to do just that.  Once
you linearize the book, you get a _very_ linear book.  Our certain
knowledge about the eventual outcome makes the lack of plot complexity even
more obvious.  I did, however, like the way that the "cast the witchcraft
spell" story line was integrated.

I still recommend reading _Taltos_, and have already passed the word of its
appearance to the several people here whom I turned onto Brust's work.

Ron DeBry

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 12:06:02 GMT
From: judy@linus.uucp (Judith Schaffer)
Subject: Re: Taltos by Steven Brust

c60b-bb@buddy.Berkeley.EDU (Margaret S Pai) writes:
> _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ is, I believe a book of fairy tales by
> Steven Brust...... I haven't read it, so whether or not the stories are
> retellings of old classics or ones Brust made up, I couldn't tell you.

I belive that _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ is not a collection of
fairy tales, but the retelling of one tale.  The publishers are getting
contemporary SF authors to retell some of the classics.  I don't remember
what this one is supposed to be based on, as I have only read the preface.
BTW, I got my copy at Boskone, but I have seen the hard cover copies in a
fair number of places.  Try Lauriats.

I hear that another one in this series is going to be by Charles de Lint,
set in Ottowa, no doubt!

Judy Schaffer
ARPA: judy%faron@mitre-bedford.arpa
UUCP: {. . .}!linus!faron!judy

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 16:52:48 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Taltos by Steven Brust

>_The_Sun,_the_Moon,_and_the_Stars_, and that means I can go get it and
>read it (yay).  But... I haven't seen hide nor hair of it... has anybody
>else?  What is it?  Where can it be gotten?

It's part of the (now on hold or cancelled after only two books, sigh) Ace
Fairy Tales series. It hasn't hit paperback, I haven't seen a schedule on
when (if) it will. This was a series that was packaged by Armadillo Press
and published by Ace, and got hit by the crossfire when that relationship
fell apart. The other book is the wonderful "Jack, The Giant Killer" by
Charles de Lint, and I really hope this series starts up again....

The Sun, the Moon and the Stars is probably Brust's weakest book. Which
just goes to say that it's merely good, as opposed to somewhere between
great and inspired.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 10:21:45 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!lll-winken!gethen!farren@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Taltos by Steven Brust

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>It's part of the (now on hold or cancelled after only two books, sigh) Ace
>Fairy Tales series.

Too bad.  This was one excellent series, with several other books in the
works, beyond DeLint's "Jack the Giant Killer"

>The Sun, the Moon and the Stars is probably Brust's weakest book. Which
>just goes to say that it's merely good, as opposed to somewhere between
>great and inspired.

I take this opportunity to register the strongest possible disagreement
with Chuq's position.  I think that The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars is
easily the best thing Steven Brust has written so far.  The writing style
is perfectly matched to the requirements of the story (or stories - there
are several interlocking storylines going on at once, most of which are of
the same characters), the characters in the "non-fairy-tale" parts are
clearly drawn and incredibly real, and the things Brust has to say about
creativity, art, and emotion are strong and well-presented.  I recommend
this book (and Jack the Giant Killer, by the way) to anyone who likes
Brust.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 20:52:20 GMT
From: cquenel@pyramid.pyramid.com (Christopher Quenelle)
Subject: Card's _Seventh_Son_

I just got "Seventh Son" the other night, but Varley's "Demon" is in front
of it in line for reading :-).  Can anyone tell me what I've got in store ?

I've read Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead.  I loved them both.

As it turns out, Ender's Game was one of the handful of short stories I
read from sci-fi magazines in the public library (I was eleven at the
time.) I remembered it when I read the novel, and was suitably impressed
although it was a long time ago.  When I first saw his name again, I
thought "Oh, yeah, Card, he's got a lot of stuff out, right ?  Because I
remembered his short story as being so good, and I remembered looking for
stuff by him, (but evidently I had forgotten /not being able to find any/).

Anyway, forgive the rambling. Is Seventh Son any good ?

Christopher Quenelle
{sun,hplabs}!pyramid!cquenel

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 05:16:28 GMT
From: jhm%scorch@sun.com (John McCartney)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

I realize that I'm coming into this discussion late, so if my preferences
have already been bounced about, oh well.

The aliens I like the best, and find to be most believable, are not any one
species, but any/all those developed by C. J. Cherryh. Yes, I can spot
'human societal modeling', most evident in the Chanur books, but the
sampling and blending of these traits along with the alien touches make for
refreshingly un-human aliens. Especially the non-humanoid ones.  What the
heck, even her humans are refreshing.

!sun!scorch!jhm

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 88 21:17:09 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: The Questing Hero by Hugh Cook

Ripoff alert: This is really about half of a novel, the rest of which is to
be published "later this year", as is announced twelve pages from the end
of the book (and nowhere else that I can see).  The action is simply
chopped off in mid-adventure.  One of the more blatant examples of this
odious practice, since I'd bet the book was published in one volume in the
UK, and another book by the same author more than twice as long was
published in one chunk.  Sigh.

That aside, it is a pretty good read, for a light adventure (though, of
course, I can't say yet how satisfying the ending may be).  The setting is
again a long time after a massive war between powerful factions of a
wizard's guild has feudalized the culture of the world.  Like the earlier
book, _Wizard_War_, the protagonist is searching for a bit of thaumaturgic
technology lost in the ancient war.  But the contrasts are deep, in that
our hero is a bit of comic relief compared to the hero of the earlier work,
and the tone of the piece is much, much lighter.  Slapstick, in fact.

If you've read _The_Misenchanted_Sword_ and _With_a_Single_Spell_ by
Lawrence Watt-Evans, then you have a good model of the relationship between
the two Hugh Cook books... the first is not devoid of humor, but the second
has more humor to it, but isn't (on the whole) quite as good as the first.

In fact, it is interesting to contrast these four works... they have a lot
in common in terms of setting, background, and mood, though HC in general
has a better flair for words than does LWE.  Bottom line: Where I rated
HC's earlier _Wizard_War_ ***+ as I recall, I'd rate this one (and likely
its completion when it comes 'round) as more of a ***- or **+.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 21:10:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: P.K. Dick play opens in Chicago

"Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said" by P.K. Dick, directed by Dan
Sutherland, at the Prop Theatre, 2360 N. Clybourn Avenue (at Fullerton).
Opens March 3, Thursdays-Saturdays at various times.

I have no affiliations with the Prop Theatre, etc etc

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 22:04:07 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!lll-winken!gethen!farren@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Alan Dean Foster

mch@cf-cm.UUCP (Major Kano) writes:
>What about "Alien" then ?  I always thought ADF wrote "the book of the
>film". However, some people say that he was COMMISSIONED to write a
>science-fiction horror movie of the "humans powerless against something
>they don't understand" variety.

Reading the book, it's pretty clear that Foster was working from an early
shooting script - there's all the stuff in there that later turned out to
have been edited out of the final film.  And if you are supposing that
Foster wrote the original story from which Alien was derived, the rules of
the Hollywood game would have made damn sure that his name appeared in the
credits.  It did not, therefore he did not write the book first.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 19:15:57 GMT
From: csrrc@daisy.warwick.ac.uk (R M Howarth)
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide Guide

Hi,

I haven't seen anyone on the net mention this yet but a guide to the Guide
was published over here in January.  It's a biography of Douglas Adams and
history of his work, starting from his Cambridge Footlights revue stuff,
his Dr Who scripts and the first BBC radio series up to So Long, the
compendium `trilogy' (incl. differences in US and British editions) and
Dirk Gently. Full of essential trivia for all HHG fans! (eg. did you know
that the guy who runs naked into the sea in the TV series, a la Reginald
Perrin, is none other than D.Adams himself, 'cos the actor who was to play
the part couldn't turn up the day they were filming in Cornwall?)

The book is by Neil Gaiman, and is called "Don't Panic: The Official
Hitch-hikers' Guide to the Galaxy Companion", published in paberback by
Titan Books.  I presume it's not out in the States yet, but it's probably
worth waiting for if you're into that sort of thing.  Douglas Adams
collaborated on it, and there are loads of excerpts from interviews with
him and others involved in the production of the radio series etc., people
like Geoff Perkins, John Lloyd, his mother...

Rather intriguingly the possibility (nay, probability even!) of a third
radio series was mentioned, but as I've been waiting for it since 1980 I'll
believe that when I hear it.

Share and Enjoy.

Rolf

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 15 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:

	Miscellaneous - New Hugo Category & Conventions (5 msgs) &
                        SF Eye & Hack Writers (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 20:39:43 GMT
From: GALLOWAY@CLSEPF51.Bitnet
Subject: Nolacon Announced New Hugo Category


Nolacon (1988 Worldcon in New Orleans Sept 1-5) Hugo News: Guy H.  Lillian
III (the T.M. Maple of 1960's DC letter columns), of the Committee
announces, "NOLACON II has decided to create a special Hugo category under
our powers in Article II Section 15 of the WSFS Constitution. This category
will be aimed at items previously unclassifiable under the traditional
award groups -- comics, unproduced film scripts, poems, tarot decks, etc.
The name of this special category will be 'Other Forms', a catch-all that
will prevent, we hope, the confusion and grumbling that resulted last year
when a comic book of surpassing excellence (Dark Knight) was nominated as
Best Non-Fiction Book -- an absurdity. 'Other Forms' will see apples
competing against oranges, but until the WorldCon establishes categories to
fit all works of quality within the genre, it's the best we can do. Lillian
adds that nominating ballots will be distributed at the end of March with
PR #3."

A few points before I start flaming; the three items that immediately pop
into my mind as being likely to be nominated in this category are Watchmen,
the very funny and recommended CVLTVRE MADE STVPID (sic), and the printing
of Harlan Ellison's unproduced film script adaptation of Asimov's I, Robot
that appeared in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine at the end of '87.  Also, based
on nomination totals released by last year's Worldcon, Dark Knight did not
receive enough nominations to make the final ballot for any fiction
category; it was horribly misclassified as an art book and thus nonfiction
due to the committee asking Charlie Brown of Locus for his opinion and
going with it.  DK should not have been on the ballot at all. And finally,
in this year's preliminary Nebula ballot, with nominations made only by
members of the Science Fiction Writers of America, Watchmen was 10th with
19 nominations, the top book receiving 30.  Watchmen did not make the final
ballot though, although at least one book ranked below it on the
preliminary ballot did (the reason for the "at least" is that two books,
one with 15 and one with 14 nominations made it on, but for the final
ballot, five books get on based on number of votes by members, and one book
is added by a judges committee; therefore at least one book ranked below
Watchmen made it onto the ballot due to votes by SFWAns, and possibly 2,
although the other four books being the four top preliminary ballot
nomination getters makes that appear unlikely).

Now for the flaming. As Locus reviewer Tom Whitmore points out, Watchmen
has enough words in it to put it into the novel fiction category without
counting pictures at all. Frankly, I'm quite tempted to put Watchmen on my
nomination form under novel with the note "I am nominating this as a novel
on the basis of word count as defined by the WSFS constitution. This
nomination is not to be transfered to the "Other Forms" category."
Although I don't have a copy of the WSFS constitution which defines the
permanent Hugo categories, unless my memory is seriously mistaken, it
defines a novel as a work of fiction of 40,000 words or more.  If this is
the case, I feel that it is a violation of the WSFS Constitution to move an
eligible work of fiction to a new category.

Lillian's rational at first glance makes some sense; in '86 Science Made
Stupid won the non-fiction Hugo, a category which it didn't really belong,
but there wasn't any other place where it really fit, there being no Hugo
for best Genre Humor. The non-fiction category has become something of a
dumping ground for works that don't quite seem to fit the other categories.

However, his remark about establishing a catch all category due to "until
the WorldCon establishes categories to fit all works of quality within the
genre" is dead wrong in my opinion. How many unproduced filmscripts have we
seen in the last 5 years? Hmm, come to think of it, actually two of
Harlan's were first printed in '87, as The Essential Ellison contains a
script he did for an Our Man Flint series in the '60s which had never
appeared before. But other than that, nada.  And how many comics really
deserve a Hugo? From last year, Watchmen and Elektra perhaps, but I really
don't think any others did. I plan to ignore this "Other Forms" category
with my nominations, and urge others who feel that Watchmen was one of the
best 5 novels they read last year to do the same.

tyg  galloway@clsepf51.bitnet
galloway%clsepf51.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 22:03:16 GMT
From: yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson)
Subject: Westercon 1991 idea

So my housemate had this really wonderful idea for Westercon 1991: It
should be held in Hawaii.  On July 11 there is a total eclipse of the sun
visible from Hawaii.  Since Westercon is traditionally held "July 4th
weekend" this is ideal: Con July 4, 5, 6, 7 (Thu-Sun), swim three days (8th
- - 10th), see the eclipse the 11th.

Of course, neither of us is "active" in fandom, and we have no idea whether
Hawaii has organized fandom, or anything.  But it's such an obviously good
idea that I thought I should post to "the entire civilized world" to get
the word out.

Anyone volunteering to run this con?  Won't it be great?

Judy Anderson
edsel!yduj@labrea.stanford.edu
...sun!edsel!yduj
(415)329-8400

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 05:58:50 GMT
From: rfm%urth@sun.com (Richard McAllister)
Subject: Re: Westercon 1991 idea

yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson) writes:
>[it would be neat to hold Westercon 1991 in Hawaii to see the total
>eclipse on July 11th]

Well, there are about 2 active fans in Hawaii, and a bid would have to be
put together and won at this year's Westercon, so there's not much chance
of it happening.  But on the other hand, who needs a Westercon?  Somebody
should pick an area of an island and say "this is where the fans will be"
and publicize it.  (Posting it here's a good start.)  Then we just go and
have a good time.

A bunch of Bay Area fans did basically this for Halley's Comet and it
worked just fine -- but we could have used a few hundred more fen....

BTW, Maui might be the best idea -- they have a 10000 foot easy drive up
mountain....

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 21:57:11 GMT
From: agv@j.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Murrell)
Subject: Startrek Convention in Indianapolis, Indiana

I am posting this for a friend in the Electrical Engineering department.
Any questions or comments should be directed to Starbase Indy at the
address given below. Please do not contact me regarding the content of this
message -- I don't know any more about it than you do.

HOWEVER, the originator of the message would enjoy knowing how many of you
plan to attend because of this posting -- in order to determine whether or
not future postings of the same nature are of merit. If you plan to go and
have seen this message, please send a *SHORT* reply to jo@ecn.purdue.edu.

Thank you!

			   STAR TREK CONVENTION

			     March 25-27, 1988
			     Indianapolis, IN

Starbase Indy is sponsoring a Star Trek Convention to be held at the Adam's
Mark Hotel (near the Indianapolis Airport) on March 25, 26, and 27.  Guests
of Honor include George Takei and Mark Lenard.

This will not be your ordinary media convention.  In fact, it will be
EXTRAORDINARY.  Programming includes a Dealer's Room, Art Show & Auction,
Autograph Sessions, Ambassador's Ball, Masquerade, and Filking (folk
singing with a sci-fi background).  There will be a National meeting of
Star Fleet Command, and a buffet dinner Saturday evening with the guest
stars.

For further information, send a SASE to:
   Starbase Indy
   P.O. Box 304
   Carmel, IN  46032-0304

Plan on attending if you're a Trekker to any degree.  It should be an
incredible, Trek-packed weekend!

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 03:33:50 GMT
From: bicker@terminus.uucp (The Resource, Poet of Quality)
Subject: I-CON VII Convention

				 I-CON VII

New York's Largest Convention of Science Fiction, Science Fact, and Fantasy
is coming to the State University of New York at Stony Brook

			  April 15, 16, 17, 1988

Guest of Honor: Poul Anderson
Special Guests: Anthony Ainley ("The Master from Doctor Who")
                Harlan Ellison
     
			 Surprise Star Trek Guest
	     Hal Clement - Samuel Dealany - Charles Sheffeild
	      Pat Morrissey - Barry Malzberg - Lloyd Eshbach
		      Tim Hildebrandt - Bob Eggleton

PLUS over a dozen movies (including ROBOCOP and all four STAR TREK films)
Lectures, Panel Discussions, Continuous Video Rooms, An Art Show, Large
Dealer's Room, Special Events, Gaming and much more.

For more information write:
   I-CON VII
   PO Box 550
   Stony Brook, NY  11790

Latest info is available through bicker@hoqam.UUCP (...ihnp4!hoqam!bicker)

Okay, that's the latest PR stuff.  Word is that the Trek guest won't be
Stewart or Burton.  I doubt that they would get Sirtis; she's been around
too much.  I'd put my money on either Crosby or Nicholls, but I really
don't know (because they don't know).

I'd like to get together with other net-ers there.  Email me if you're
interested.

Sorry I don't know more, now.  Stay tuned.

If you need directions to Stony Brook or hotel information, e-mail me where
you're coming from.

I-CON Programming Hours:
   Friday    6pm - 2am?
   Saturday  10am - 3am?
   Sunday    10am - 8pm?
(Gaming has their own schedule--well, you know...)

Special Events:

I-CON Banquet: 5:30 pm, Saturday
   Enjoy a fine meal with all our guests.

Cabaret: 8:30 pm, Saturday  ($6 add'l.)
   Our guests put on a show you won't forget.

Meet the Pros Party: 10pm, Saturday
   Meet and talk with our guests in an informal atmosphere.  Refreshments
   will be served.

(Tickets are limited for special events, so send you payment now to insure
you place at one or more of these events.)

Dealer Tables and Program Book Advertising is also available.

I'd like to get together a net.party at the CON.  Keep it in mind.

Things look grim for a Star Trek actor guest this year.  Their personal
appearance manager has not been terribly helpful.

There is talk of Batman showing up!

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 21:04:07 GMT
From: drwho@bsu-cs.uucp (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Convention Announcement

MUNCIECON '88 -- DR. WHO/STAR TREK/FANTASY/GAMING

DATE: Saturday April 16th, 1988
      L.A. Pittenger Student Center
      Ball State University
      Muncie, Indiana

TIMES:  8:00 AM - 11:00 PM

GUESTS:  

Lois McMaster Bujold -- Fantasy writer
   Nominated for Campbell Award
   Titles:  "Shards Of Honor", "Warrior's Apprentice", "Ethan of Athos",
   Falling Free", "Border's of Infinity"

Tim Quinn --  Cartoonist from Britain, best known in U.S. for the comic
   strip "Doctor Who?" in DOCTOR WHO MAGAZINE which hew co-writes with
   Dickey Howett Has worked for Marvel U.K., DC Thompson

Jean Airey 
Laurie Haldeman -- Part-time DOCTOR WHO and BLAKE'S 7 fans
   Free-lance writers for STARLOG magazine Authors of "Travel Without The
   TARDIS"

ACTIVITIES:  
   Dealer's Room
   Art Display/Sale table in Dealer's Room 
   Lectures and Panels
   Dr. Who Activities Room
   Star Trek Activities Room
   Videos

GAMING:
   Open Gaming Rooms
   AD&D Gladiator Tournament - Sanctioned
   Star Fleet Battles Tournament - Sanctioned
   BattleTech Tournament 
   Star Trek Dual-Bridge Combat Scenario - TENTATIVE
   Marvel Superheroes Tournament
   Fletcher Pratt Demonstration (1/700 miniature naval combat)
   Warhammer Demonstration
   GURPS Demonstration

If you want more information, posters, or flyers (w/ applications)
please contact them at:

MUNCIECON '88
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
1-317-747-0023

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305	
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 02:45:56 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: SF Eye dead?

I had a piece of mail I sent to SF Eye returned to me as "Box Closed" --
this implies to me that they've folded. Anyone know what the latest status
of this newsletter is?

danke.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 15:21:13 GMT
From: nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Hack Writers

    I like the definition that a hack writer is someone who turns out
quantity rather than quality strictly for the sake of the money.  (By this
definition, by the way, we could include writers like Heinlein who made
their reputations writing quality but now have switched to quantity.)
Anyone who calls Brin a hack writer is a nut.  I will not likewise defend
Anthony and Foster, but I point out each has written an occasional good
book.  (Anthony haters who don't believe me should read Macroscope and the
Omnivore/Orn/Ox trilogy, which are mediocre but not really BAD.  Ignore the
fantasy though, I agree.)

    I would like to point out that the classic term for this type of crud
work is "potboiler", refering of course to a book that keeps the author's
pot boiling on the stove.  The classic potboiler writer in SF was
Burroughs, whose endless Tarzan and Barsoom books certainly qualify.  (The
initial premise in each case was good, I am simply objecting to the endless
rehashing.)
    
    Farmer could also be included in the occasional quality/lots of crud
category, but to give the guy a break it should be noted that he really
NEEDED the money for a while.

Louis Howell
nazgul@math.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 03:37:00 GMT
From: d25001@mic.uucp
Subject: Re: Hack Writers - Definition Requested

>> What is a generally accepted definition of "hack writer?"

   If by "generally accepted" you mean how it is most often used, then
"hack writer" means _any_ writer of whom the speaker disapproves.

>Writes 3 books a week, mostly romances, and about once a month a science
>fiction book.

   A hack in the (almost) non-pejorative sense is a writer whose primary
source of income is closely tied to the _volume_ of output.  As a result of
this the hack cannot afford to take the time to make his work any better
than it has to be.  The form, content, grammar, spelling, etc. will usually
be no better than the minimum required for acceptance in the hack's chosen
market.  In the heyday of the pulp magazines hacks turned out stories by
the yard for a fraction of a cent per word.  Even in the 1930's it took a
lot of words to earn a living at those rates.
     For the curious, the most readily available example of real pulp
magazine hack writing is the Doc Savage novels that are still available in
paperback.  These are the finest examples of archetypical "hackwork"
available.

>Uses bad grammar, writes like Barbara Cartland ("He was a lean and
>slickery man, gleaming with charisma from his mighty thews"), has gaping
>plotholes all around. If science fiction, the science is all wrong. ...

   Often the case, but not always.  A few hacks in every generation manage
to transcend the limitations of hackerdom.  A list of some of the famous
hacks of the past and present might include: Edgar Rice Burroughs, Charles
Dickens, Isaac Asimov, William Shakespeare, Robert Silverberg, Milton,
Harold Robbins, L. Ron Hubbard, ...
   The quality is certainly as variable as you could imagine.  What all of
these writers have in common is that they were doing it for a living.  As
opposed to university professors and gentlemen amateurs who do it for the
shear love of writing: J.R.R.Tolkien, Isaac Asimov, L.  Ron Hubbard, ...
   The alert reader will notice that some names appear in both lists.  The
same person may at sometime write for money and at another for the 'fun' of
it.  Often, the quality of the work is very much the same under both
circumstances.

>Engineers who failed English literature in college, but think they're
>writing a science fiction novel (thankfully, one novel is all we ever see
>from these

   A generation ago this was the archetypical science fiction writer.
Except for the "failed English" part this describes E.E.Smith, G.O.Smith,
Campbell, Asimov, Heinlein, and half the other stf writers of the "golden
age."

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: {convex, killer} mic!d25001

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 15 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Grimwood & Herbert (4 msgs) & Jameson &
                      Kurland (4 msgs) & Lorrah & McCammon &
                      McDonald & Powers

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 16:56:17 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: REPLAY by Ken Grimwood

ecl@mttgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>   One wonders how a novel such as this could have a satisfying
>resolution, but Grimwood manages it very well.  As a unique approach to
>alternate history and time travel, REPLAY is highly recommended.

A very good book.

We all have those fantasies about "if I could go back to High School and do
it all over again (knowing what I do now), then...".  That's the starting
point for this book.  But then an interesting thing happens.  After
reliving his life again, the protaganist is sent back again.  Now what does
he do?  Just repeat the same old fantasy?

There's been mention recently on rec.arts.sf-lovers of Card's short story
about a man who is executed over and over again, and the philosophy the
experience creates in him.  In REPLAY, playing his life over and over again
induces a philosophy in the hero.  What do you think that philosophy would
be like?

That would be enough for a fascinating book - an exploration of the
philosophy you might build if you lived your life over and over again - but
Grimwood takes it a step further.  The plot conclusion at the end of the
book gives the protaganist a chance to really test out his philosophies in
a life where he won't get a second chance.  What will he do?

Two minor nits with the book: First, the hero remembers details of his
early life that I think many people would have trouble with (as Evelyn
said, quick, who won the Kentucky Derby in 1963?).  Second, there is a plot
device that introduces an element of worry and action into the bulk of the
story.  Its necessary to the plot conclusion and it provides literary
propulsion, but it is somewhat obtrusive (and unexplained).

Overall, a very good book.  Get it while you can.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 11:39:12 GMT
From: sqkeith@csvax.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

Here's my opinion, dissect it at your pleasure:

Surely, variety is the spice of life and, if Frank Herbert does have
surprising shifts of style and quality then that is in his nature -
Surprising!

I have read most of Frank (and Brian) Herbert's (spacey) work from Dune (et
al)., Whipping Star - Dosadi Experiment - Jesus Incident - Lazarus Effect
to his ecological statements - Green Brain - Helstrom's Hive - White Plague
etc..  So what if they varied in style? I become very bored with authors
like Robert Heinlein (in my view) who simply don't change from story to
story.

I was absolutely fascinated with Heretics of Dune and Chapter House because
I enjoy vast quantities of detail even if the action is relegated to the
last thirty or so pages. I'll admit to inconsistency between the last three
Dune books and the first three (Scytale is a face dancer in #2 and a master
in #6 etc.) and some of Herbert's latin phrases are far from correct - I
still enjoyed them all.

Similarly, Green Brain (described as stupid, along with Hellstrom's Hive by
previous postings to this newsgroup) was so 'real' and absolutely 'typical'
of what Nature might try in sheer desperation to counteract the human
race's vanity and stupidity. In short, it is likely to be believable to
those (like me) who are unfettered by any and all religion, simply
believing that 'What is, is what must be'.

Keith Halewood
Janet: SQKEITH@UK.AC.LIV.CSVAX
Arpa : SQKEITH%CSVAX.LIV.AC.UK@NSS.CS.UCL.AC.UK
Uucp : {backbone}!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!sqkeith

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 02:00:47 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Paul Atriedies as hero

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
> From: djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
> That's one interpretation.  I prefer to see it as the story of a man who
> took a rotting, decadent empire and tore along the dotted line.  I
> thought that his internal struggles came from >not< taking the
> alternate-future paths that precipitated even worse horrors, preferring
> instead a path that lead to his own blindness and ignominy rather than
> one which (as is broadly hinted at in _God-Emperor of Dune_) would result
> in Berserker-like machines exterminating all life in the universe, or
> equally appalling scenarios.

Paul is forced into a messiah role.  He can see in varying degree of
accuracy all the possible timelines at any decision point.  What he avoided
was the Bloody Jihad although he knew it would cost him his eye sight, et
cetera, because in his limited sight he thought it would avoid the even
greater evil of racial stagnation.

What Paul thought his options were:
1) Jihad
    God incarnate leads a bloody war but preserves the worm across hardship
    and the race survives.
2) Stagnation
    Lose of spice would close humanity into its own little planets
    where they would whither out
3) Self destruction, lose of Chani, etc..
    This one is shown later (by Leto-II) to really just lead to Stagnation
    and Leto-II then chooses the Jihad.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 23:18:33 GMT
From: gak@mhuxm.uucp (Vincent Hatem)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

eric@cfisun.UUCP writes:
>> I have read a half dozen or more of his other books, as a duty, and I'm
>> always disoriented by how _bad_ most of his other fiction really is.  As
>> many here have remarked, _Under Pressure_ is the best of his non-Dune
>> books.
>
> One vote for _The Dosadi Incident_ as a good read.

That's _The Dosadi Experiment_.

Personally, I liked the trilogy involving _The Jesus Incident_, (why can't
I remember the names of all the books???), In particular, the last book.
Anyone remember the name of it??? (Now I've got to hunt through my 
bookshelves looking for it, sigh. I'll never sleep.)

Vincent Hatem
AT&T International
International Systems Operations
UNIX Technical Support
(201) 953-8030
ihnp4!atti01!vch

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 02:19:56 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Paul Atriedies as hero

tainter@ihlpg.ATT.COM (Tainter) writes:
>Paul is forced into a messiah role.  He can see in varying degree of
>accuracy all the possible timelines at any decision point.  What he
>avoided was the Bloody Jihad although he knew it would cost him his eye
>sight, et cetera, because in his limited sight he thought it would avoid
>the even greater evil of racial stagnation.

I don't think this is quite correct.  Paul does choose the Jihad, but seeks
to mitigate it.  This mitigation is what costs him is eyesight, etc.

>What Paul thought his options were:
>1) Jihad
>2) Stagnation
>3) Self destruction, lose of Chani, etc..
>    This one is shown later (by Leto-II) to really just lead to Stagnation
>    and Leto-II then chooses the Jihad.

Note that Leto chooses the Jihad, *then* a long period of stagnation, and
*then* something else.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 23:08:19 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Looking for "The Bureaucrat"

I finally found a copy of Malcolm Jameson's "Bullard of the Space Patrol",
but it's the edition that doesn't contain the final story "The Bureaucrat"
(or maybe just "Bureaucrat").  Can anybody give me a reference (preferably
magazine) for this story?

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 6 Mar 88 18:40:29 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: New Lord Darcy book - is it any good?

Michael Kurland writes stories based on other authors' characters.  He
wrote a Sherlock Holmes pastiche several years ago (can't remember the
name, drat!).  At one point Watson is kidnapped by Morarity in a hot-air
balloon (I remember the balloon, anyway).  I thought his portrayal of
Watson was too like Nigel Bruce (a portrayal I detest), but Moriarity was
all right.

There are a number of writers making a living off pastiches.  Chuq, have
you read anything by John Gardner?  He's done some interesting books on
James Bond, Grendel, and Moriarity.  What did you think of those pastiches?

Karen Black

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 01:04:05 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: New Lord Darcy book - is it any good?

>Michael Kurland writes stories based on other authors' characters.  He
>wrote a Sherlock Holmes pastiche several years ago (can't remember the
>name, drat!).  At one point Watson is kidnapped by Morarity in a hot-air
>balloon (I remember the balloon, anyway).  I thought his portrayal of
>Watson was too like Nigel Bruce (a portrayal I detest), but Moriarity was
>all right.
>
>There are a number of writers making a living off pastiches.  Chuq, have
>you read anything by John Gardner?  He's done some interesting books on
>James Bond, Grendel, and Moriarity.  What did you think of those
>pastiches?

Yes, I've read Gardner. He's much better than Kurland. And Kurland's Darcy
book is definitely not a pastiche. An attempt at homage, perhaps, but not
what I'd call a successful one.

What it really is is a decently written rewrite of a Christie mystery that
happens to use GArrett's character's names, but not, unfortunately, the
characters that Garrett wrote into the characters. As a mystery, it isn't
bad. As a continuation of the Darcy universe, it's disappointing.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 20:49:44 GMT
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: New Lord Darcy book - is it any good?

In article <43674@sun.uucp> chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes
[About "Ten Little Wizards"] :

>The writing is decent. What really bothered me was Kurland completely
>missed the most important facet of Garrett's writing: the characters.
>Darcy and Sean are flat and very, very serious. Garrett had an ability to
>write some levity (and a number of carefully placed puns) into all of his
>works: this is all missing. The characters look kinda like Garrett's
>characters, and they're named the same, but they sound and act different.

I'm both sorry and surprised to hear that. When first I heard about Kurland
writing a D'Arcy novel, I was wildly excited. Based on his previous
production I was certain that he would be able to bring it off. His two
"Moriarty" novels are quite wonderful, both as to atmosphere, character
description and plot. And they certainly don't lack humour! Well, I'm going
to get it as soon as it arrives over here anyway, and I sincerly hope to
disagree with you.

Incedentally, is there any news of Kurland's third "Moriarty" book, "The
Murder Trust"? I've been waiting for that book for years now!

>And the cover, by the way, really, really sucks. Really.

That bad, eh?

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 15:54:12 GMT
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Kurland

robert@weitek.UUCP (Karen L. Black) writes:
>Michael Kurland writes stories based on other authors' characters.

Apart from the new Lord D'Arcy book and the Moriarty trilogy (of which the
third is still pending) I don't know of any Kurland pastiches. Please let
me know the titles of any you know.

>He wrote a Sherlock Holmes pastiche several years ago (can't remember
>the name, drat!).

"The Infernal Device" and "Death By Gaslight".

>At one point Watson is kidnapped by Morarity in a hot-air balloon (I
>remember the balloon, anyway).  I thought his portrayal of Watson was too
>like Nigel Bruce (a portrayal I detest), but Moriarity was all right.

Moriarty was indeed all right. (Incidentally Watson was not kidnapped.)
What I especially liked about them was that they give a new interpretation
of Moriarty *without invalidating any of Conan Doyle's writings. That is,
Watson is wrong in his depiction of Moriarty, but the mistakes are natural
and well explained.

*** MINI-SPOILER ***

Basically Holmes has a blind spot about Moriarty. This causes him to
attribute any crime, that is not immediately solvable, to Moriarty.
Sometimes he is right. Unfortunately he is also wrong sometimes, so on
occasion Moriarty has to solve some particularily nasty problem in spite of
Holmes' interference.

>There are a number of writers making a living off pastiches.  Chuq, have
>you read anything by John Gardner?  He's done some interesting books on
>James Bond, Grendel, and Moriarity.  What did you think of those
>pastiches?

Gardner's James Bond books are very good. I can't say the same for his
Moriarty books. They have some very interesting back- ground material, but
are somewhat unconvincing. The explanation of how both he and Holmes
escaped the Reichenbach Falls are especially unconvincing. Gardner has
promised the "true" story in the third volume, which is not out yet, to my
knowlegde.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 17:32:00 GMT
From: GILL@qucdnast.bitnet
Subject: Star Trek - The IDIC Epidemic

   I just picked up this new Star Trek novel, written by Jean Lorrah, and
recommend it for those who enjoy a better-than-average Star Trek novel.  As
in her other Star Trek novel (The Vulcan Academy Murders - great Star Trek,
but a lousy mystery), Jean Lorrah develops an excellent society, with a lot
of insight into how the society interacts and functions.  I even found the
book quite humourous in parts.  About the only criticism I had was that,
after a fairly good plot development, everything was wrapped up rather
quickly (the `everybody-lives-happy-ever-after' syndrome).  I won't spoil
it for anyone by describing the plot, so go and buy it!

   Along a similar vein, for those that buy the Star Trek novels on a
regular basis (as I do), what are your favorites?  Some of mine include
(not in any particular order):

   Ishmael
   Dwellers In The Crucible
   Uhura's Song
   The Final Reflection
   Killing Time
   Spock's Son
   The Price Of The Phoenix / The Fate Of The Phoenix

Arnold Gill
Queen's University at Kingston

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 13:44:41 GMT
From: boyajian@akofin.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: rE: McCammon Books

From:	kodak!diaz

> I have just finished reading "Swan Song" by Robert McCAmmon...  I'm
> trying to find out if he has written any other books...

He has at least six other books, all horror fiction pretty much "in the
tradition of Stephen King", as the blurb writers are wont to say:

   BAAL             1978
   BETHANY'S SIN    1979
   THE NIGHT BOAT   1980
   THEY THIRST      1981
   MYSTERY WALK     1983
   USHER'S PASSING  1984
    
- --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akofin.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akofin.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 11:00:50 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: More cyberpunk (Was: Re: What a Card...)

davidbe@sco.COM (The Cat in the Hat) writes:
>Another book that's overshadowed by other works is Mike Resnick's
>_Birthright: The Book of Man_.  Find it if you can, but it may be
>difficult, since it's not a happy book.  Consequently, people don't seem
>to like it as much.  If it were to come out today, it might even be
>considered cyberpunk (WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS...) (no smiley...)

Recommendation seconded, but don't read it if you are feeling depressed. If
you thought the future depicted in Gibson's work is bleak...

Just a quick plug for "Desolation road" by Ian McDonald (ISBN
0-553-27057-5), an amazing first novel.

Just out recently, it tells the story of a settlement on a partially
terraformed Mars about 1500 years from now.  All the clasic cyberpunk
ingredients are there. (Human machine interfacing; Large impersonal
companies; Other high technology; etc...)

If I had to give it a description, I would call it the first Cyberpunk
Western, but it is a lot more than that.

One to add to your reading list.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 08:48:45 GMT
From: oleg@gryphon.cts.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: "On Stranger Tides" by Tim Powers

The book is good, but hardly worth +3 (on -4..+4 scale).  Overall, the
character development was either minimal or very artificial.  The book was
marginal on anthropological data, as well.

It *was* a good read.  It *had* a great, wonderfully consistent and logical
magic system.  The plot really moved and the surprises were numerous.
Still, I would hesitate to rate it at higher than +2 (more like +1.5).  It
was significantly worse than "Anubis Gates", which I would rate at +3.

(Maybe if I had bought "OST" in paperback, I would have liked it more.. 1/2
;-)

Oleg Kiselev
{frodo|bilbo|lcc}.oleg@seas.ucla.edu
...!ihnp4!lcc!oleg
oleg@quad1.quad.com 

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 15 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:

		   Television - Outer Limits (2 msgs) &
                                Sapphire and Steel (4 msgs) &
                                Doctor Who (3 msgs) & 
                                Red Dwarf (7 msgs) &
                                Probe (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 88 09:42:12 GMT
From: bverreau@mipos3.intel.com (stargazer)
Subject: Looking for Episode Title

Something in the previews for the coming ST:TNG episode, "Home Soil", made
me think of an old "Outer Limits" story I haven't seen in years.  To the
best of my recollection, it involved the spontaneous generation of an
energy lifeform inside a vacuum cleaner.  The entity grew in size and power
until it had to be contained inside a reactor of some sort.  There was also
a plot twist concerning heart pacemakers and a sinister research institute,
but I can't recall the details.  Does anyone know if this episode was based
on a published story, and if so, could you provide a reference?  [Note,
this isn't a complaint about a plot being recycled.  I haven't even seen
the Star Trek episode in question yet.]

Bernie Verreau
..{hplabs|amdcad|qantel|pur-ee|scgvaxd|oliveb}!intelca!mipos2!bverreau
csnet/arpanet: bverreau@mipos2.intel.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 88 11:03:03 GMT
From: malis@bbn.com (Andy Malis)
Subject: Re: Looking for Episode Title

bverreau@mipos3.UUCP (stargazer) writes:
>Something in the previews for the coming ST:TNG episode, "Home Soil", made
>me think of an old "Outer Limits" story I haven't seen in years.  To the
>best of my recollection, it involved the spontaneous generation of an
>energy lifeform inside a vacuum cleaner.

To the best of my recollection, it was titled "It Crawled Out of the
Woodwork".  This was one of the best Outer Limits shows.  Sorry, I can't
remember any other references.

Andy Malis
UUCP:harvard!bbn!malis
ARPA: malis@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 88 05:05:32 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: Sapphire And Steel

Ah, I used to love this series, especially because of its blend of sci-fi
and the supernatural.

One thing that I always hoped for but never got was a spin-off series/or a
number of them, who knows, involving the other "minerals" mentioned by the
supreme being at the beginning (if memory serves, the intro goes "Gold,
Silver, etc., Sapphire and Steel have been assigned). Or at least special
appearances.

On the whole, while British sci-fi tends to be rather bland in its
production, it is always aimed at a higher intelligence than those of its
American equivalent. (Well, most of the time...)

amit

------------------------------

Date: 2 Feb 88 15:20:47 GMT
From: hwee!sutherla@rutgers.edu (I. Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Sapphire And Steel

finesse@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Amit Malhotra) writes:
>One thing that I always hoped for but never got was a spin-off series/or a
>number of them, who knows, involving the other "minerals" mentioned by the
>supreme being at the beginning (if memory serves, the intro goes "Gold,
>Silver, etc., Sapphire and Steel have been assigned). Or at least special
>appearances.
   
  There were special appearances, well at least one anyway. I remeber
during one story that Sapphire and Steel were joined by a woman in black
who was called Jet.
  I'm afraid that my memory is a bit vague concerning the rest of the
series.
  It's a pity that it has never been repeated, even on Grampian TV which is
notorious for old reruns.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 04:04:38 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Sapphire And Steel

>  There were special appearances, well at least one anyway. I remeber
>during one story that Sapphire and Steel were joined by a woman in black
>who was called Jet.

There was also an episode that involved a big black guy by the name of
Lead. He apparently was used as shielding for Sapphire and Steel against
some force(s) unknown. (Get it? Lead? Heavy element?)

CMU Box 231
Pittsburgh PA 15213
ARPAnet: rz02+@andrew.cmu.edu
BITnet : rz02%andrew@cmccvb
         r029rz02@cmccvb
UUCP   : ...!{ucbvax, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!rz02+
BELLnet: (412) 681-1842

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 88 09:47:16 GMT
From: sqkeith@csvax.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Sapphire and Steel


 From what I remember, there were 'guest' appearances from other minerals
(they called them elements) such as Silver (an expert with entropy(?)) and
Lead/Jet (strong - in the dense sense). In the last story to be shown,
transuranic elements appeared (usually banned from earthly assignments due
to instability).  These were instrumental in trapping Sapphire and Steel in
a temporally bogus motorway cafe.
 
finesse@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Amit Malhotra) writes:
> On the whole, while British sci-fi tends to be rather bland in its
> production, it is always aimed at a higher intelligence than those of its
> American equivalent. (Well, most of the time...)

 I have often found quite a lot of British TV sci-fi is sinister and
effectively frightening in parts - in other words excellent.
 
Keith

------------------------------

Date: 5 Feb 88 17:49:37 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@rutgers.edu (Doctor Who)
Subject: Re: Dr.Who

Unless those faces were different ways that the first Doctor had dressed on
different occasions before his regeneration (remember, he was several
hundred years old when he turned into the second Doctor), they were not
other Doctors.  They were incarnations of Morbius, the editors just botched
up the timing when they put it together.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.	             
Muncie, IN  47305			
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 88 21:32:00 GMT
From: bucc2!worm@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Dr.Who

BABOWICZ (at tamagen.BITNET) writes:
[about mental duel between the Doctor and Morbius]
>We see pictures of Tom Baker, then Jon Pertwee, Patrick Thoughton, and
>William Hartnell, in that order. After this several more pictures of
>people [...] ARE THESE SUPPOSED TO BE OLDER VERSION OF THE DOCTOR????
 
    I admit that it's been a long time since I've seen this one (it hasn't
been shown often on the stations I get, and the last time I accidently
slept through it...), but I do remember that some of the pictures shown in
the duel didn't have anything to do with either the Doctor or Morbius.  In
fact, these pictures were of people involved with making the show...
people like Robert Holmes, Phillip Hinchcliffe, and others, although I'm
not exactly sure which people were shown.  It was all a joke by the TV
production team, so there's no need to start wondering if there were any
earlier incarnations of the Doctor. You should be worrying about who these
LATER incarnations of the Doctor are (raise your hand if you hate the whole
idea of the Valeyard {you're lucky if you don't know what I'm refering
to.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 18:54:52 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: Dr.Who

> new body for Morbius, then his old body. However, the Doctor starts to
> lose.  We see pictures of Tom Baker, then Jon Pertwee, Patrick Thoughton,
> and William Hartnell, in that order. After this several more pictures of
> people in progressively older styles of dress appear. ARE THESE SUPPOSED
> TO BE OLDER VERSION OF THE DOCTOR???? During these other images, Morbius
> is saying something like, "How far back, Doctor? How far?"

Someone else has already stated this was something of a joke.  And I agree.
In one of the episodes with Davison (I believe), the Doctor has to save his
aging companions by giving his regeneration abilities to regenerate some
'people'.  He states that a timelord can only regenerate 12 times.  He has
already regenerated four times (being the 5th doctor) since there are 8
beings needing this regeneration, he would not be a timelord anymore.  This
is the episode where there are two Harry's (I believe) running around in
the same time space.  Because they meet at exactly the right time, the
beings get what they want and the Doctor is saved and is still a timelord.
So that kind of supports the fact of how many doctors there are.

jody

ps: sorry about the brief review but it has been a long time since I have
seen either show, and I have slept since then. :-)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 88 15:21:28 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: RED DWARF. (BBC TV)

The BBC does it again.... With almost no publicity, another SF tv series
begins on BBC2 on Monday 15th Feb at 9.00 PM.

The series consists of six episodes and is described as "A comedy series
set in space".

The TV guide says this about the first episode.

1. The End.
   The mining ship "RED DWARF" is an old tramp steamer mining around the
moons of saturn. It's five miles long and three miles wide, with a crew of
169. Within 24 hours 168 of them will be dead.

Judging by the trailer, it is "comedy" of the alternative kind, but some
people seem to find this kind of thing funny.

I will make up a list of episodes and post a review of the series to the
net, same as I did for "STAR COPS", for the benefit of those who don't get
BBC2. i.e. most of the net.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 88 09:43:00 GMT
From: rob@lucifer.uucp ( 237)
Subject: Re: RED DWARF. (BBC TV)

Yes, it is comedy of the alternative kind, and it might as well be set at
the North Pole or some other fairly isolated place for all the difference
being in space makes.  In the first episode we are expected to believe that
the survivor has been in a statis field for 3 million years while the
radiation that killed everyone else dies down.  (Apologies, by the way, to
those who have not seen it for this spoiler.)  As to the comedy, I find the
type (alternative) that relies on abuse at regular intervals for laughs to
be very wearing.  All in all, I don't think that the series could be
classified as SF but then again maybe the next 5 episodes will prove me
wrong.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 88 15:25:41 GMT
From: lindsay@kelpie.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Re: RED DWARF. (BBC TV)

Well, I liked it and I thought that it was Science fiction. The first
episode WAS a bit a slow, but it showed definite promise. Better than Star
Trek any day (not that that is hard)

Lindsay F. Marshall
Computing Lab.
U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK
ARPA:  lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
UUCP:  <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 88 09:40:22 GMT
From: sqkeith@csvax.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: RED DWARF. (BBC TV)

I watched Red Dwarf and regretted ever having been born with a reasonable
quota of intelligence. Perhaps the same people that destroyed Dr. Who had
something to do with it.

Keith Halewood

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 88 13:36:10 GMT
From: grant@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Grant)
Subject: Re: RED DWARF. (BBC TV)

Nice idea Aunty Beeb. But...

1) Don't like the canned laughter. The Beeb are always saying they never
use the stuff and for most of their comedies this is true. This is probably
because of the video effects used to create the feel of one of the
characters being a hologram (i.e. passing through solid objects etc.). This
of course would require tedious reshooting before an audience - not the
best of situations.

2) Chris Barrie should stick to doing impressions for Spitting Image.

3) Craig Charles should stick to reciting his poetry which is a damn sight
funnier than this series.

4) Nice opening titles though.

The series might improve (second episode tonight-22/2/88) but I can't see
it going further than one series.

Steve Grant

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 88 12:21:20 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: RED DWARF. (BBC TV)

I suppose I should say something, as I posted the original notice.

After the first episode I couldn't make up my mind whether I liked or hated
this series.

After the second episode last night.... I still can't decide.

I wouldn't really class it as science fiction, it changes the rules too
much as the story goes on.

e.g. in last night's episode the red dwarf crosses the light barrier in a
large flash of light. Minutes later the characters are discussing Einstein
and relativity.

This series can only do one of two things. It will either sink without
trace, or it will become as big a cult programme as "Hitchikers guide".

Anyway, I'll be tuning in again to find out what happens, which is what it
is all about, after all.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 88 15:02:50 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Red Dwarf - 3rd episode

grant@sage.cs.reading.ac.uk (Stephen Grant) writes:
>Well the third episode was out last night and yes the series is getting
>better. Still a shame about the laughter though.

Strange... I thought that this was the worst episode so far.  and that the
series is doing rapidly down hill after using up all the original material
in the first two episodes.

However... The first episode made number 3 on the BBC2 viewing figures with
4.70 million. (After Moonlighting and M*A*S*H)

>... I'll still keep watching it, if only to answer some questions like 1)
>Are there any more cat-people on board and 2) Who will become the mother
>of Lister's children?

Given the lack of continuity between episodes so far, I would not be
surprised if the children never appear again.

There must be something wrong somewhere that programmes like this (which I
wouldn't call science fiction but perhaps fantasy fiction) can get the go
ahead for the second series already, while real quality science fiction
(quick plug for STAR COPS) is shown once then forgotten about and consigned
to the video vaults.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 16:24:56 GMT
From: jody@inuxd.uucp (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Probe- some thoughts

Last night (3-7-88) I decided to watch the movie introduction to the new
series "Probe".  I saw a few ads for it before, but thought I didn't want
to watch-it didn't seem all that interesting.  So last night for some
reason I watched it.

I didn't put a spoiler warning because I won't talk about plot so it
shouldn't spoil it for most people.

Opening of the show until they went to commercial, I said it's ok but loose
the girl :-).  But I continued to watch.  A good thing too, because the
show really started to pick up.  Half way though the show I liked James
Austin(sp??) character but the girl I wasn't sure about.  By the end of the
movie I cared what happen to them both, and that surprised me.  This
morning I was making plans to watch the show on Thursday when it airs.

I should state that I like Parker Steveson in most of the rolls he has
done, so I could be swayed because of it.  I think this series has
potential, but it is of that type of show that all too quickly falls into
formula that will make it boring.  I am hoping for the best.  I would like
to see most SF or SFsorta shows on TV.  It seem like there has been nothing
on that is good SF in a long time (except for ST:TNG).  However PROBE may
be another SF show to fill the viod.

jody

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 10:34:06 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

OK. My opinion: The acting was pretty mediocre. The dialog -- where DID
they get the dialog? Out of a box of Fruit Loops?  The writer did his best
to do the kind of sizzling dialog that made Moonlighting such a hit, but
mostly missed the target wide.  And the plotting... give me a break!  Quick
- -- genius foils plan by super-intelligent computer to take over the world.
Sound familiar? GARGH! HAL, where are you when we need you! But, I could
have even put up with the hackneyed plot -- if it wasn't for UTTER
STUPIDITY. Like, I can imagine how this computer can change traffic signals
etc.  But make non-computer-operated washeteria doors open and close? Make
water spew out of innocent washing machines, and dryer doors flop open and
closed like obscene wings, and flourescent bulbs burn and explode? Give me
a break! I'm no electrical engineer, and even I know that the power company
can't regulate the voltage in your flourescent bulb -- without blowing up
every bulb in a three block radius (whatever happens to be on the same high
voltage line as your house or place of business). And that business of
making an old fashioned mechanical TV turn on and off... GAH!

Opinion: Joe Bluecollar ain't the smartest guy in the world. But even he
can see that nobody here knows what they's talking about.  Heck, Joe might
even have rigged his meter once or twice to swipe power from the local
utility. I predict this series will flop, and flop terribly -- and then the
netnics will say "See, I told you nobody watches science fiction!", when
actually the reason is not the genre -- it's just plain BADDD.

It might have worked, if they'd used a more futuristic setting, perhaps. If
everything was controlled by computer, well, I can imagine a creeping
intelligence a' la' _Speaker for the Dead_. But count this one DOA.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191        
Lafayette, LA 70509              
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #92
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 15 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Story Request & Some Answers (3 msgs) &
                      Cyberpunk & Upcoming Books & Ace Specials &
                      Teen SF Stories & The Beyond &
                      Arthurian works (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Feb 88 18:04:37 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Name this Story!

Help!  I've got a story running around in my head that I remember reading a
long time ago, but I can't remember either the title or the author!

In summary: the main character is a 'political' criminal who is going to be
publicly executed for his crimes (so as to serve as an example for others
who believe as he does).  The catch is that he is going to be executed
multiple times.  Upon each death, his final memory pattern is captured,
played back into the brain of a clone, which is then executed, and so on.
Each execution is by a different (and particularly gruesome) method.  Since
he remembers each previous 'death', the punishment is actually supposed to
be the mental torture this creates.  However, instead of generating the
mental anguish intended, the prisoner actually becomes indifferent to dying
and begins to demonstrate his new-found attitude publicly (via the
televised executions.  Finally, instead of the executions acting as a
deterrent for others with his political beliefs, they act as reinforcement.
The government realizes that they have failed, and they exile the prisoner
to another planet.

If anyone out there recognises this story, please post or E-mail me the
Title and Author.  Not knowing is driving me nuts!

Thanx,

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard
Corvallis Workstation Operation
1000 NE Circle Blvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 20:36:00 GMT
From: sheley@repoman.uucp
Subject: Re: Name this Story!

  I believe that the story was written by Orson Scott Card.  I think it is
the first part of "Hotsleep: The Chronicles of Jason Worthington".  I think
that the story was also published in some anthology, which led me to the
book after I read the story.  It's been years, however, and I could be
wrong.

  As a side point of interest, I believe that the reason the main character
was tortured (by killing him horribly and leaving each new clone with the
memories of all the previous deaths) wasn't so much a punishment as a means
of finding (secretly) a suitable candidate for intersteller travel.
Apparently, interstellar travel wasn't FTL, and the method of hibernation
mysteriously caused insanity in most of the people who used it.  The
insanity was due to a side effect of hibernation that caused the subject to
experience terrible, burning agony.  There was also another side effect
that continually wiped out the memory of the pain, so nobody remembered
that the time in hibernation was painful.  The powers-to-be found out that
people less sensitive to pain tended to survive better, so they instituted
a special program when trying to staff a colonization mission.  They took
criminals and began executing them over and over, recording the experience
for the next clone.  Most went insane, but the few who didn't staffed the
starship.

*** POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING ***

  If I remember the story correctly, the book ran in three parts: the first
was the requested story (in which I think the main character was Jason
Worthington); followed by the story of the beginning of the flight; with
the main body of the book taken up by what happens after the ship landed on
the target planet.  I remember being disappointed that the interesting idea
of painful hibernation was just used as a plot device to force all of the
passenger's memories to be stored in some kind of magnetic media.  This was
exploited in the second part of the book where the stored memories and
personalities of everyone aboard were destroyed by a meteor collision, with
the exception of Jason Worthington, who was awake at the time.  I believe
the final part of the book dealt with the society that rose out of all
those memory-less colonists, and their hero- worship of their teacher and
protector (you guessed it), Jason Worthington.  There may have been more to
the last part, but the book kind of bogged down at that point for me.  I
hope I didn't make a mistake here, but as I've said, it's been many years
since I read this.

John Sheley
Convex Computer Corp.
UUCP: {allegra, ihnp4, uiucdcs}!convex!sheley

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 16:03:57 GMT
From: torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Mogensen)
Subject: Re: Name this Story!

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) writes:
>Help!  I've got a story running around in my head that I remember reading
>a long time ago, but I can't remember either the title or the author!

( description deleted )

>If anyone out there recognises this story, please post or E-mail me the
>Title and Author.  Not knowing is driving me nuts!

The story is "A Thousand Deaths" by Orson Scott Card, and is (I think) from
the collection "Capitol" (or was it "Hot Sleep").

Torben Mogensen

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 88 17:34:55 GMT
From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond)
Subject: Re: Can you name that story in two ideas or less?

mears@hpindda.HP.COM (David B. Mears) writes:
>The premise that I remember...  One of the goals of the aliens is to mate
>with the humans and produce combined offspring.  (My gosh!  More of the
>plot is coming back to me now!)  Apparently, a long time in the past,
>there were beings with four arms and four legs (or something like that)
>which `split' into two different races, humans and the others.  This was
>done because of some galactic event like high radiation levels...

***SPOILER WARNING!***

It's by F.M. Busby. I read it in an omnibus publication called "The Demu
Trilogy": it's the last section called something like "End of the Line",
and does not have all that much in common with the first parts of the book,
but there was a logical connection (Something they found on one of the Demu
worlds led them to the appropriate place, I think. It's been a while.)
   The Demu don't figure all that much in this section--they aren't the
other half of the "lost race" (humans and....um....Limilla's people are one
half, these other aliens are the second half). As I remember it the Demu
were long ago the slaves/pets/subordinates of the "advanced" race.

I have no idea if this is in print or not. But I've noticed that a lot of
Busby's UET stuff is being repackaged and reprinted, so I would not be
surprised if this was too.

Susan Hammond
svh@CCA.CCA.COM
{decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 17:20:09 GMT
From: "hugh_davies.WGC1RX"@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk References

To the list posted by "DrOdd@cup.portal.com" I suggest adding;

'Stand on Zanzibar'
'The Jagged Orbit'
'The Sheep Look Up'
'The Shockwave Rider' all by John Brunner

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 21:15:26 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: upcoming books....

A couple of upcoming books from the latest Publishers Weekly...

First, the new Adept book from Anthony is out in April (Ace/Putnam,
0-399-13359-3). Robot Adept is called (and this is their quote, not
mine....) a "...tepid reworking of A Midsummer's Night's Dream by the
usually boisterous Anthony..."

The other book they reviewed in HC is "Mind Transfer" by Janet Asimov
(Walker, 0-8027-6748-6). Here, J.O. Jeppson (who for some reason has
suddenly decided to start using her hubby's name, probably because it'll
garner more sales) uses Asimov's robot stories as a starting point into
looking into putting human minds into robot brains.

you read it here second....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 13:14:06 GMT
From: boyajian@akofin.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Ace SF Specials

Well, it's been a while, but I've been busy. I'll try to get caught up over
the next week or so.

From:	K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU!wenn	(John Wenn)

> If anyone is interested, I now have a complete list of Original Ace
> Specials.  In addition to the 33 books I named in my original post (and
> the Stein / Friedberg mistake), the 4 additional books are:

[list of four books.]

Well, John, you still haven't gotten them all. There's one other book that
was labelled as an Ace Science Fiction Special:

1971	Suzette Haden Elgin	Furthest

There are also four other books that I've heard (second hand;
unfortunately, I don't have a citation for the source with me) were
confirmed by Carr as having been bought by him for the series, but weren't
published as ASFS's:

1972	Brian W. Aldiss		Barefoot in the Head
1972	Gordon Eklund		A Trace of Dreams
1971	Barry N. Malzberg	The Falling Astronauts
1972	Theodore Sturgeon	The Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon

And the following two were supposedly also bought by Carr for the series,
but were not confirmed by him:

1972	D. G. Compton		The Missionaries
1972	Bob Shaw		Other Days, Other Eyes

All but one of them seem to me to be likely candidates for the series. I'm
suspicious about the Sturgeon, only because it is the only one out of the
whole series (38 definites and 6 kindasortas) that is a collection rather
than a novel.

From:	mtgzy!ecl	(Evelyn C. Leeper)

> The listings of the Ace Science Fiction Specials that appear never seem
> to include the 1975 series.  I know of only five books in that series:
> [list of five books] I'm sure if there are more, jayembee will tell us.
> :-)

There were 11 altogether. An almost complete list follows. I currently do
not know (gasp!) what #9 is. I don't have a copy, and I've not seen it
listed in any ads from the period. I'll have to dig through my newszines to
see if I can come up with a title. Anyways, here are the others:

1975  #1   From the Legend of Biel	Mary Staton
1975  #2   Red Tide		Deloris Lehman Tarzan & D. D. Chapman
1975  #3   Endless Voyage		Marion Zimmer Bradley
1975  #4   The Invincible		Stanlislaw Lem
1975  #5   Growing Up in Tier 3000	Felix C. Gotschalk
1976  #6   Challenge the Hellmaker	Walt & Leigh Richmond
1976  #7   Lady of the Bees		Thomas Burnett Swann
1976  #8   The Tournament of Thorns	Thomas Burnett Swann
1976? #9
1977  #10  Orbitsville			Bob Shaw
1977  #11  Time of the Fourth Horseman	Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

- --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:	...!{decwrl|decuac}!akofin.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:	boyajian%akofin.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 14:03:57 GMT
From: boyajian@akofin.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Teen Sci-Fi Short Stories

From:	eleazar!thomas	(Thomas Summerall)
> Can anyone tell me anything about these books: When I was about fourteen
> I picked up two books from my local library. They were both anthologies
> by the same publisher and possibly the same editor. One was horror and
> one was sci-fi. They were oversized books with about twelve medium length
> stories apiece. There were a few black and white illustrations.
[...]
> Has anyone out there read these? Who published them? Where can I find
> them?
 
While I can't be absolutely certain, I suspect that they are:

SCIENCE FICTION TALES	1973  or  MORE SCIENCE FICTION TALES	1974

and

MONSTER TALES		1973  or  HORROR TALES			1974

All were edited by Roger Elwood and published by Rand McNally.

The first one mentioned is most notable for its being the original
publication of Anne McCaffrey's short story "The Smallest Dragonboy".  Few
of the other authors are what one would call "big names".

- --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:	...!{decwrl|decuac}!akofin.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:	boyajian%akofin.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 14:17:46 GMT
From: boyajian@akofin.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: THE BEYOND (was Re: Alan Nourse)

From:	gumby!g-willia	(Karen Williams)
> Alan Nourse did not write "The Beyond." This was written by a
> husband/wife team whose last name began with an "N." I know this, because
> I also read it when I was a teenager, and for a while it was my favorite
> book....  Unfortunately, I can't remember (and am too lazy to go to the
> library to check) who wrote "The Beyond."

Well, Karen, you're half right. THE BEYOND *was* written by a
husband-and-wife team, but their name didn't begin with an "N".  The
authors were Jean and Jeff Sutton.

- --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:	...!{decwrl|decuac}!akofin.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:	boyajian%akofin.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 15:45:22 GMT
From: ALBERGA@ibm.com (Cyril Alberga)
Subject: Arthurian works

An off-the-wall (and highly irreverent) version of the Arthurian stories is
"Rude Tales & Glorious" by Nicholas Seare.  My copy is British, published
by Granada in 1985, ISBN 0-586-06101-0.

Cyril N. Alberga

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 21:17:08 GMT
From: A6C@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

I would highly recommend Malory's _Le_Morte_d'Arthur_.  It is the source of
much of what we know about Arthurian traditions, and it's also a good
story, or rather a good series of stories.  In fact, you could almost call
it an anthology of sorts, because Malory didn't come up with the stories
all by himself, he retold stories which had originally been told by others
(Malory's versions tended to be better than the originals, especially the
part about Galahad, which came from some priests who went very heavy on the
religious symbolism and weren't interested in telling a good story).  Also,
Malory had a first-hand familiarity with the customs, technology, etc., of
the Middle Ages, which gave him a big advantage over any modern author
trying to write about a medieval setting.

Other writers of early Arthurian stories included Goeffry of Monmouth,
Marie de France, Layamon (or Lachamon), Chretien de Troyes, and Wolfram von
Eschenbach (I hope that I remembered all of those right).  There were also
a few others, but I forget who they were.

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 18:18:15 GMT
From: u-pgardi@sunset.utah.edu (Phillip Garding)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

I have been following the discussion of Arthurian novels and stories, but I
have yet to see anyone mention _The_Once_and_Future_King_, by White.  It is
a whimsical approach to the legends, but is fun to read.  Supposedly, White
based the story on _Le_Morte_D'Artur_, by Thomas Mallory, which is
supposedly the "definitive" Arthur story (written sometime in the late
middle-ages, early Renaissance--I never could get through it, sort of like
reading the Iliad).

Disney's _The_Sword_in_the_Stone_ was based on _The_Once_and_Future_King_,
and so was _Camelot_.  White wrote a sequel to _The_Once_and_Future_King_
called _The_Book_of_Merlin_, which wasn't as good, I thought (is there ever
a sequel that is?).

Although _The_Once_and_Future_King_ is very good, I would have to choose
the Mary Stewart novels as my favorites.

Phil

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 16:26:28 GMT
From: dzoey@umd5.umd.edu (Joe Herman)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

From article <35298A6C@PSUVMB>, by A6C@PSUVMB.BITNET:
> I would highly recommend Malory's _Le_Morte_d'Arthur_.  It is the source
> of much of what we know about Arthurian traditions, and it's also a good
> story, or rather a good series of stories.

Well, actually Arthur is first mentioned by the Venerable Bede in the 8th
century, but yes, most of the romantic tales do come from Malory.  In my
opinion, most of the modern Arthurian tales are descended more from T.H.
White than Malory.

> Also, Malory had a first-hand familiarity with the customs, technology,
> etc., of the Middle Ages, which gave him a big advantage over any modern
> author trying to write about a medieval setting.

I found Malory very tedious to read.  The problem is that he has first hand
familiarity with the customs, technology etc. of the Middle Ages.  We do
not.  There is a bit of a culture gap in reading Malory.  I think if you
want to read Malory, make sure you have a good translator who isn't afraid
to take a few liberties (er..poetic license).  I prefer a writer who can
relate the essance of the tale, while transforming it into a modern
viewpoint.  It's much easier to understand and appreciate.  I find when
reading old stories, that a brief foray into a history book helps.  It
gives you a perspective of the audience for which the book is intended.

One thing that surprised me was the amount of violence in Geoffrey of
Monmouth's work.  And people complain about T.V....

Joe Herman
University of Maryland
dzoey@terminus.umd.edu
dzoey@umdd.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Kurtz (11 msgs) & Ore (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 01:27:12 GMT
From: wes@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Wesley James Vokes)
Subject: Request: Katherine Kurtz

   Well, I was just going to start reading some Katherine Kurtz, and went
to the library to check out some books by her, when I found 3 or 4 differnt
series by her, and I couldn't seem to figure out which would come first
chronologically.  If possible, could someone out there post on
rec.arts.sf-lovers or send to me through email a chronological list of her
books that deal with Deryni and Camber?  I'm sure somewhere along the line
a list was posted, so someone out there must have it..  A complete list of
her books might also do.  (I'd even prefer that..)  I like reading books in
the "historical order" that they were written in, especially for fantasy
novels..  Thanks in advance...

arpanet: wes@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
bitnet: wes%csd4.milw.wisc.edu@wiscvm.bitnet
UUCP: !ihnp4!uwmcsd1!csd4!wes

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 05:18:21 GMT
From: cpetty@accur8.uucp (Craig Petty)
Subject: Re: Request: Katherine Kurtz

I found her series enjoyable.  I find the idea of magic mixed in with
Christianity (particularily Catholicism) very interesting.  I would like to
see some modern tales along the same lines (Kurtz's novels are set in a
sort of medieval society).  You know, some Penecostal or Baptist preacher
with magical powers (and I don't mean t.v.), battling against the old devil
himself (Something with a little more teeth than Highway to Heaven).
Meanwhile, his/her respective heirarchy condemns his use of the "devils own
tools"....Oh well, might make for some interesting reading.

Back to your question, I don't know.  But, I do know that historically the
Camber series takes place before the Deryni series.  But she *wrote* the
first Deryni series (I believe one of the titles was Deryni Checkmate)
before she wrote the Camber series.  Then I think she wrote some more
Deryni stuff (I guess they're all Deryni stuff).  I'm sure someone can fill
in the blanks for you.

Craig Petty
...uunet!accur8!cpetty

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 18:16:10 GMT
From: jbence@math.ucla.edu
Subject: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

I believe that the order of the Deryni series is as follows:

1st trilogy:
   A) Camber of Culdi
   B) Saint Camber
   C) Camber the Heretic

2nd trilogy:
   A) (I forget this one; you should be able to deduce it from the others)
   B) High Deryni
   C) Deryni Checkmate

3rd trilogy:
   A) The Bishop's Heir
   B) The King's Justice
   C) The Quest for Saint Camber

There is also a collection of short stories, but I have forgotten the name
of the book.  The collection roams about the time periods in the trilogies,
so it really doesn't have a "place".

I am fairly confident this list is correct; if I made an error, it's in the
2nd trilogy list.

And there are even more trilogies to come!!

James Bence
UCLA Mathematics Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 20:58:19 GMT
From: shefter-bret@cs.yale.edu (Bret A. Shefter)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

jbence@MATH.UCLA.EDU (james bence) writes:
>2nd trilogy:
>   A) (I forget this one; you should be able to deduce it from the others)
>   B) High Deryni
>   C) Deryni Checkmate

   The book title you are missing is *Deryni Rising*.
   Also note that *High Deryni* is the last book in that trilogy and that
the Camber books were actually written *after* the original Deryni books,
though they do take place first chronologically.
   Finally, there is a tenth book: *Deryni Archives*, which contains
several short stories from various time periods.

   I'm not much of a Kurtz fan myself, though I did get through all nine of
these. After 3A, I found myself wondering, "Isn't anybody *EVER* happy??"
and about three-quarters through 3B I all but gave up on the whole series
out of despair. Ah, well.

shefter-bret@yale.ARPA
shefter@yalecs.BITNET 
...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!shefter
...!decvax!yale!shefter

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 01:50:40 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

jbence@MATH.UCLA.EDU (james bence) writes:
>I believe that the order of the Deryni series is as follows:
>
>1st trilogy:
>   A) Camber of Culdi
>   B) Saint Camber
>   C) Camber the Heretic
>
>2nd trilogy:
>   A) (I forget this one; you should be able to deduce it from the others)
>   B) High Deryni
>   C) Deryni Checkmate
>
>3rd trilogy:
>   A) The Bishop's Heir
>   B) The King's Justice
>   C) The Quest for Saint Camber

I believe this ordering of Kurtz's books is based on the series's internal
time line and not on the order in which they were published. I should say
that I haven't read the series yet, though I plan to "soon", but I have
looked at it in bookstores. In any case it seems to me that it is better to
read a series in the published order (which is easy to determine by looking
at the publication dates inside the books). When the author first set pen
to paper (finger to key) she was obviously aware that nobody had read any
part of her story yet, and I'm sure she wrote accordingly. Although she may
have tried to make the following books independent, I would imagine that
Kurtz was at least partially influenced by the knowledge that most of the
readers of the trilogy published second had already read the first. If
anybody would care to EXPLAIN (i.e. not just state) why the published order
is not the best and James's is, I for one would be very interested because
I plan to read the books "soon".

John L. McKernan
Student
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 15:55:55 GMT
From: judy@linus.uucp (Judith Schaffer)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

I started to read the series in the published order.  After the first book,
I decided to read the Camber series (Camber of Culdi, Saint Camber and
Camber the Heretic), which is first chronologically.  After reading that
trilogy, I restarted the first written trilogy (Deryni Rising, High Deryni,
and Deryni Checkmate) and enjoyed it more.  Katherine Kurtz had obviously
planned out the history of the Eleven Kingdoms before writing the first
books.  Knowing this history sheds a new light on many seemingly small
details.

BTW, reading them in chronological order was recommended to me before I
started too.

Enjoy,

Judy Schaffer
ARPA: judy%faron@mitre-bedford.arpa
UUCP: {. . .}!linus!faron!judy

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 15:14:30 GMT
From: jhl@nick.egr.msu.edu (John Lawitzke)
Subject: Katherine Kurtz/ series order

The easiest way to which order the Katherine Kurtz books are in (or any
series for that matter) is to simply look carefully at the cover or even
turn in a couple of pages and look at the copyright date. Now, assuming
that you can read (because you are considering getting a book) and I assume
that you have the simple mathematical skills to order numbers, you should
have no problem.

A little bit more esoteric is to look at the page near the front that lists
"Other works" by the author. This list usually only contains a list of
books prior to the one you are holding.

Just for the record the order to read is:

Chronicles of the Deryni Trilogy
Camber Trilogy
Kelson Trilogy

j
UUCP: ...ihnp4!msudoc!eecae!ipecac!jhl
ARPA: lawitzke@msudoc.egr.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 04:02:00 GMT
From: rce229@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

> 2nd trilogy:
> A) (I forget this one; you should be able to deduce it from the others)

_Deryni Rising_.

> There is also a collection of short stories, but I have forgotten the
> name of the book.  The collection roams about the time periods in the
> trilogies, so it really doesn't have a "place".

_Deryni Archives_.

The order she wrote the books was: 2nd, 1st, 3rd, with the Archives written
(I think) during the 3rd.

Her other two books are _Lammas Night_, about witchcraft in WW II, and
_Legacy of Lehr_, a science-fiction mystery.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 23:37:45 GMT
From: mamino@hpcupt1.hp.com (Mitchell Amino)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

>1st trilogy:
>       A) Camber of Culdi
>       B) Saint Camber
>       C) Camber the Heretic
>
>2nd trilogy:
>       A) Deryni Rising
>       B) High Deryni
>       C) Deryni Checkmate

   I thought "Deyni Checkmate" was the second book...I could be wrong.

   I would recommend reading them in the published order, mainly because
part of the mystique of reading the first trilogy is learning the bits and
pieces of Camber's life as Morgan and Duncan learn them.  Although there
are no major spoilers to be found by reading the Camber books first, I
think that Kurtz _was_ influenced by her prior writings.

   I don't know if this is enough of a justification for you to read them
in publishing order, but I had to put my 2 cents in (especially since there
didn't seem to be an overabundance of responses).

Mitch Amino
Hewlett-Packard
hplabs!hpiacla!mitcha

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 02:04:00 GMT
From: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz - requested list

Drat!  Some of the notes on this topic never made it here.  (In particular,
the one that started the whole discussion.)

I like many of the features of the Deryni series.  Katherine Kurtz has a
problem lately of writing big, flabby books (action/page ratio low, but she
also feels compelled to insert a whole lot of background info into later
books).  Since I'm a speedreader, I find that I don't particularly notice
it unless I try.

I talked to Kurtz when she was GoH at a con last year (Stark Raving
Confusion, 1987, Ann Arbor).  If you want some spoiler info, e-mail me and
I'll mail it to you.

I've added info in brackets.

jbence@MATH.UCLA.EDU writes:
> 1st trilogy:  [the ``Camber'' trilogy]
>   A) Camber of Culdi    [903-4 AD]
>   B) Saint Camber       [905-7]
>   C) Camber the Heretic [917-8]

> 2nd trilogy:  [the ``Deryni'' trilogy]
>   A) (I forget this one; you should be able to deduce it from the others)
>   B) High Deryni
>   C) Deryni Checkmate

Actually,
   A) Deryni Rising     [1 Nov and 14-15 Nov 1120]
   B) Deryni Checkmate  [Spring-Summer 1121]
   C) High Deryni       [Summer-Fall 1121]

> 3rd trilogy:  [the ``King Kelson'' trilogy]
>   A) The Bishop's Heir                [Fall-Winter 1123-4]
>   B) The King's Justice               [May-July 1124]
>   C) The Quest for Saint Camber       [March-April 1125]

> There is also a collection of short stories, but I have forgotten the
> name of the book.  The collection roams about the time periods in the
> trilogies, so it really doesn't have a "place".

Deryni Archives (originally the name of a fanzine:
   The Deryni Archives Magazine
   Caer Deryni Publications
   c/o Yvonne John
   1348 McDowell Road
   Naperville, Illinois 60540
).

> And there are even more trilogies to come!!

She plans at least 2 more.

``Post-Camber'': after ``Camber'' but before ``Child Morgan'' [q.v.].
   A) The Harrowing of Gwynedd  [918 AD]
   B) Javan's Year              [921-2]
   C) The Bastard Prince        [948]

``Harrowing'': about the Deryni purge.  Starts about 5 minutes after
the end of ``Camber the Heretic''.  Due out in Fall of 1988.
``Bastard Prince'': the invasion of Mark-Imre Festil.  Check out the
geneologies in the back of the other books and notice how many entries
there are of the form ``born <>, died 948''.
She's working on/has finished ``Harrowing''.  She's going to do other
projects (contractual obligations) before finishing the rest.

Next one planned to be written: ``Child Morgan'': no titles yet.
[1091-1106 or so?] Well after ``Post-Camber'' but before ``Deryni''.
The origin of Alaric Morgan (born Sep 29, 1091---Michaelmas), his
childhood, and his early relationship with King Brion.  ``Swords
Against the Marluk'', Kurtz's only Deryni short story not in ``Deryni
Archives'' will be expanded into a book/part of one.  (``Swords
Against the Marluk'', in _Flashing Swords! #4: Barbarians and Black
Magicians_. ed. Lin Carter, Nelson Doubleday, Inc., 1977. pp.
107--134)

Another book/trilogy after the ``King Kelson'' one, tying up loose
ends (e. g. Rothana & her son).

Tim McDaniel
Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Internet, BITNET:  mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
UUCP:    {ihnp4,uunet,convex}!uiucuxc!uicsrd!mcdaniel
ARPANET: mcdaniel%uicsrd@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
CSNET:   mcdaniel%uicsrd@uiuc.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 16:19:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Kurtz and Camber

The recent mention of Kurtz' Deryni books reminded me of a reaction I had;
I'd like to throw it out to see what others think.

On the whole, I like the Deryni series -- it's not the best, but worth
reading.  I enjoy Kurtz' character confrontations, and her love for the
era.  I've only read the first two trilogies, BTW.

One thing really disturbed me about the Camber trilogy: Camber was
constantly *forcing* everyone to do his will.  Whether by direct coercion
or subtle manipulation, he rode over many others' own desires.  The most
obvious example is with the monk he forced to become king, but there are
others.

The impression I get is that Kurtz approved of this.  There are many traits
Camber had which I also approve of, his decisiveness among them, but I
believe that good is not served through compulsion; personal freedom is a
strong part of my value system.  I suppose that my view of Christian morals
is dissonant with Kurtz'.

Bryan Stout
stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 22:41:16 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: BECOMING ALIEN by Rebecca Ore

		       BECOMING ALIEN by Rebecca Ore
			 Tor, 1988, 0-812-54794-2
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The science of linguistics has been largely neglected by science
fiction, so I found it an odd coincidence (or for the Jungians out there,
just another example of synchronicity) that I read in quick succession two
novels dealing with the subject, the more so because one is a new novel and
the other a four-year-old novel that I recently decided to read.  The
latter is NATIVE TONGUE, which I have commented on previously.  The former
is Rebecca Ore's BECOMING ALIEN.

     BECOMING ALIEN is a "Ben Bova Discovery" and considerably better than
the two previous entries in that series.  (You'd never know it from the
cover, of course, which rips off ENEMY MINE to a fare-thee-well.)  Tom fins
a crashed alien ship and tries to save the occupant.  He fails, but the
beings who come after the alien decide he is not entirely xenophobic and
recruit him for the Space Academy.  Part--a very important part--of his
training involves learning alien languages, and to do this effectively he
must have his brain modified to cope with them.  There is a lot more to his
"becoming alien," but it's all connected to language.

     Ore does an excellent job of conveying alien ideas and concepts,
although I found her choice of main character (the brother of a small-time
drug dealer) to be less than totally satisfying.  Bova and Spider Robinson
both compare BECOMING ALIEN to THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, which may be
overdoing it a bit, but it is a novel worth reading.  (I would say it is
infinitely better than NATIVE TONGUE, but that goes without saying.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 17:39:30 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!garth!fenwick@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Stephen Fenwick)
Subject: Re: BECOMING ALIEN by Rebecca Ore

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>     The science of linguistics has been largely neglected by science
>fiction, so I found it an odd coincidence (or for the Jungians out there,
>[remainder deleted]

Try 'Omnilingual', a short story by H. Beam Piper.  This is an
almost-hard-science look at recovering the written history of a dead alien
race.

Steve Fenwick
Intergraph APD
2400 Geng Road
Palo Alto, California 
(415) 852-2325
...!pyramid!garth!fenwick

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 17:10:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: BECOMING ALIEN by Rebecca Ore

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn Leeper) writes:
>     The science of linguistics has been largely neglected by science
>fiction...

There is a non-trivial amount of science fiction that talks about
linguistics. Samuel Delany has been interested in linguistics, and most of
his work (from the early _Babel-17_ to _Stars in My Pocket like Grains of
Sand_) reflect this interest. I also recall vaguely that some of Ian
Watson's books address problems of deciphering alien languages.

It's just that most SF fans are in it for the hard science/high tech
fireworks.

Bill

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:

	 Miscellaneous - Time Capsule (2 msgs) & Book Publishing &
                         Favorite Aliens (4 msgs) & SF Cons List & 
                         Politics in SF (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 88 14:14:00 GMT
From: nelson_p@apollo.uucp
Subject: time capsule

   I originally posted this idea to sci.electronics, and I've gotten some
interesting suggestions, but when one of the suggestions referred to a
story by Arthur C. Clarke it ocurred to me that I might get some even
*better* ideas out of this newsgroup.

   I've been playing with the idea of an electronic time capsule.
Basically I have in mind a box which would remain dormant for a long time,
say 50 to 200 years, and at the end of that time it would 'wake up' and
transmit a radio signal to call attention to itself.  It would probably
have a bank of solar cells on it to power the transmitter and these could
also power some low power internal circuitry when the cells are exposed to
light.  Keep in mind that they may be obscured by snow for months on end
during the winter.
 
   I've worked out the design details of most of this system and even built
a small working prototype but one problem still eludes me: What is a
reliable and simple way to time the 'wake-up' of the box?  How can I time
out decades or even centuries with reasonable accuracy (say, +/-20%) and
reasonable reliability?
 
Consider:   Mechanical systems would wear out or break down.

Electronic systems would require a constant source of power to save the
state of the counters, and of course no battery system could be counted on
for such a long time.  Solid state devices will probably last that long but
things like electrolytic capacitors and Nicads would never be able to
withstand the time, especially allowing for the temperature cycling the
time capsule would be subjected to.  EAROMs have been proposed but there is
no reason to believe that they would hold their data that long.
 
Ideally any proposed timing system should follow the KISS keep it simple,
stupid) rule to maximize reliability and also be cheap enough so a number
of time capsules could be deployed (thus increasing the chance that one or
two might last out the centuries).  Any ideas out there?

Thank you in advance,

Peter Nelson

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 04:31:16 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: time capsule

nelson_p@apollo.uucp writes:
>I've been playing with the idea of an electronic time capsule.  What is a
>reliable and simple way to time the 'wake-up' of the box?  How can I time
>out decades or even centuries with reasonable accuracy (say, +/-20%) and
>reasonable reliability?  Ideally any proposed timing system should follow
>the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) rule to maximize reliability and also be
>cheap enough so a number of time capsules could be deployed (thus
>increasing the chance that one or two might last out the centuries).  Any
>ideas out there?

Simple.  Power the device with a radioisotope-powered cell.  Pick something
with a long half life.  For a timer, you could use another isotope, with a
shorter half-life...when it's output drops below a given level, the time
kicks over.  Maybe three of the timer circuits, just to be safe.  You could
use CMOS circuits for low power needs, and none of your radioactives need
be very active.

Simple, no moving parts, pretty cheap to make.

There.  (I said it was simple, not easy: now *you* deal with the paperwork
needed to get it all together.) :}

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 22:03:33 GMT
From: john@bc-cis.uucp (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Hard to find books, out-of-print and the export tax blues

   I found a bookstore, in NYC, which was willing to order several Westerns
(or Pseudo-Westerns, they're really `Historical Fiction' on the shelf, if
you know what I mean...) that I'd been having trouble finding, even with
all the bookstores available to me here in NYC, used & new.  Mind, these
were in-print and American paperbacks, but not genre fiction.

   Anyway, I was able to find them in a few locations, a book at a time,
but with gaps (it was a series, did I say?) in my collecting.  I ordered
the missing volumes from The Classic Bookstore, here in NYC on Sixth (or
Ave. of the Americas, to all you non-Noo-Yawkers out there :^) and 48th.  I
was so pleased with their service, I thought I'd give 'em a free plug.  Any
book, paper or hc, you want, and you're in NYC, if it's in print in the
USA, they'll order it for you.  Mine took two weeks.

   On another topic: recently I wrote to this newsgroup complaining about
not being able to locate a book by a British author (John Wyndham)
available in a British paperback.  I learned of the 1985 copyright case
(thank you, Net), now in the courts on appeal, wherein an American
publisher who had the US copyright on a book which he let go out-of-print,
when a British publisher exported their edition, the American sued and won
the case.  (This verdict stinks, just to add my two-centimes worth.  A
publisher should be required to publish or lose the rights.  This kind of
verdict only encourages the keeping of books out-of-print.  Personally, I
believe the law should encourage the keeping of books in print.  Anyway, as
I said, the case is still in the courts, so we shall see...)

   My point is, I've learned since then that all this has nothing (or
little) to do with my original question, viz. "Why are British editions so
rare in the US these days?"  It seems Britain has an export tax on their
books, already on the stiff side price-wise.  A curiosity is it's as hard
to get British pb's in Canada as it is in the USA.  You can get them here
in the USA, but they'll cost you more, so much so, your local bookshop may
not want to buy them in the first place (aside: my local shop, The Science
Fiction BookShop, of 8th Ave at 13th St, NYC, NY, got me an edition of John
Wyndham's _The_Midwich_Cuckoos_, one of his most famous books.  Seems
rather bad policy, but I guess the foreign market isn't interesting enough
for them.  Odd little tidbit: French pb's ARE available and CHEAP in
Canada.  Guess the French think differently than the Brits.  1/2 :^) and
other 1/2 :^( 

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355 
...!phri!bc-cis!john

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 02:11:19 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>One thing about Niven's aliens that I've always found very predictable is
>that they all take purely human attributes to an extreme.  There is litte
>or nothing new in their outlooks.  He thinks up interesting shapes, but
>that's about as far as it goes.

It is almost impossible to come up with aliens with "something new in their
outlooks".  After all, the author only has human experience to draw on; he
can hardly produce aliens which transcend that.

There are really three approaches to doing aliens:

(1) Make them just like humans, with different shapes.

(2) Make them have ordinary human mental attributes, but with different
emphases.  This approach can be particularly strong if the author doesn't
confuse "ordinary human" with "ordinary exemplar of modern western
culture".

(3) Have them act inscrutably, and don't explain their motivations.  This
works best if their responses mostly fit into sensible categories, with the
occasional strangeness.

Of these, I find option (2) the most satisfying.  Option (1) is clearly
inferior.  When reading stories using approach (3), I find myself saying
"no, that doesn't make sense" a lot.

One thing that will help a lot, which few authors do, is to do some
analysis of the environment in which the creatures evolved.  What kinds of
behaviors are conducive to survival and reproduction in that environment?
The aliens will have an emotional makeup which tends to produce those
behaviors, and not the anti-survival behaviors.  

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 06:23:00 GMT
From: pax@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

I have always been partial to Salarki and Zacathans, and especially
Baldies, and Forerunners.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 07:40:58 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) says:
>Actually, in how many sf books are there aliens that aren't highly
>sterotyped?  You know: all Puppeteers are cowards, all Tymbrini are
>practical jokers, etc..  The author may recognize this fault in the
>obvious case and throw in a misfit or two, but there is only *one* ideal
>Puppeteer, and it is a coward.  The same applies to other alien types.
>How many "ideal types" do people have?  And remember, I'm talking
>personality types, not physical types!

I've been watching with interest the debate my survey sparked, and have
been waiting for an apt moment to reply.  The question of stereotyping in
SF in not limited to aliens.  In SF, the standard SF hero is often merely a
cypher.  While this is not an aspect of the top-of-the-line SF, it is
undeniably present.

The best writer at simulating alien thought I've seen is Samuel R.  Delany;
though his characters are, for the most part, human, the changes in the
human norm represented in the works of Delany depict a consciousness which
could be described with reasonable accuracy as alien.

Recently, I was also quite impressed with a Greg Bear story entitled
"Petra," which is included in the Bruce Sterling-edited _Mirrorshades: The
Cyberpunk Anthology_.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 88 15:48:00 GMT
From: peter@prism.tmc.com
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

Though I like the Puppeteers, the Tymbrimi and other aliens of Pournelle
and Brin, they are essentially anthropomorphic. One of the most haunting,
and thought provoking depictions of an alien is Stanislaw Lem's sentient
ocean in his novel _Solaris_ . What I liked about the novel is that Lem
tried to depict our attempts to understand and communicate with a life form
that is so different that these attempts are doomed to failure.  Yet this
'failure' has the side effect of casting new light on what it means to be
sentient, or in the protagonists case making some of their behavior seem
quite alien indeed, even though they are human.

The books is over 20 years old, yet I find that it is different from most
of the current SF in that it is more philosophical, more thought provoking
and more memorable.

Another book whose treatment of an alien culture I liked is _Total
Eclipse_.  Similar to _Solaris_ an expedition is sent to a remote planet to
study the remains of an extinct alien race. The book deals with the
Xeno-archaeologists efforts of trying to solve the mystery of the alien's
extinction, while at the same time these scientists are oblivious of their
own species' effort to anihilate itself in war.

_Total Eclipse_ is more allegorical, and the 'loose ends' are tied up more
completely, yet it too is one of the more successful speculations on what
an alien race could be.

I have found both that both books where and are haunting, in that whenever
I think about them I find myself oddly disturbed by the 'remoteness' of
these aliens. They both succeed in making the 'final frontier' seem vast
and unfamiliar, and our 'home' seem 'small' yet 'cosy'.

For me a successful treatment of aliens has to try and achieve Arthur C.
Clarke's ideal of making 'reality' not only "...stranger than we imagine,
but stranger than we CAN imagine."

Peter J. Stucki
Mirror Systems
2067 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA, 02140
617-661-0777 extension 131
peter@mirror.TMC.COM	
{mit-eddie, ihnp4, harvard!wjh12, cca, cbosg, seismo}!mirror!peter
peter@mirror.zone1.com

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 18:44:54 GMT
From: koreth@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Steven Grimm)
Subject: World Classes

Can anyone give me a list of the alphabetic world classes used in Star Trek
and several other science fiction settings?  For instance, an Earth-type
planet is class M.  Thanks...

Steven Grimm
ARPA: koreth@ssyx.ucsc.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ssyx!koreth

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 88 19:05:31 GMT
From: zellich@almsa-1.arpa (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons List Updated

Since last month's posting, I have received a significant number of updates
to the cons list; SRI-NIC.ARPA file PS:<ZELLICH>CONS.TXT is now somewhere
around 93,000+ characters and 36 printed pages, and lists 195 cons
worldwide.

The file can be copied by anonymous FTP or, for those who don't have direct
FTP access, by sending a message to SERVICE@SRI-NIC.ARPA with the text SEND
PS:<ZELLICH>CONS.TXT in the Subject: field.

See you at the cons,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 01:40:28 GMT
From: erspert@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ellen R. Spertus)
Subject: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

As someone sympathetic to objectivism (small-o only) and other
individualist philsophies/politics, I have been collecting fiction, mostly
science-fiction, which are either about libertarianism or have allusions.
I'm listing the books I know of here and would love to hear from other
people.  Any replies sent to me will be summarized and posted.  I would
also like to see a list of Prometheus Award winners, if anyone has one.

Most famous is Robert Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, which has
a revolution on the moon which parallels the American revolution (i.e. is
libertarian).  One character is asked if he is a Randite, and another is
called their John Galt.

L. Neil Smith has written a series of books (of varying quality) about an
alternate universe whose history diverged shortly after the American
Revolution, with the result being that this America lived up to the ideals
of the revolution.  The first and best book in the series is _The
Probability Broach_, with hilarious allusions and caricatures.  There are
about six other books in the series.

F. Paul Wilson wrote my favorite book on this list, _An Enemy of the
State_, recently out of print, about an anarchist revolution.  Of all the
books here, it is the closest to being truly philosophical.  Among other
things, Wilson shows the difference between nihilists and (individualist)
anarchists.  Very good reading.  The mentor of the hero is named Adrynna!
I'll leave you that one to figure out yourself :-).  Wilson has written two
other science fiction books that I know of: _Healer_ and _Wheels Within
Wheels_ which are not as blatantly individualist but still pretty good.
I've read one of his many horror books, which contains an allusion to Rand
near the beginning.  (A doctor states that if a socialist medical law
passes, he'll "shrug".)

F. Neil Shulman, the final member in the libertarian-authors-with-first-
initial-and-four-letter-middle-name clique, has written _Alongside Night_
and Prometheus Award winning _The Rainbow Cadenza_.  _Alongside Night_ is a
short light book set in an America in the not too distant future.  It is
fun to read but the writing isn't great.  The writing and characterization
are a lot better in _Alongside Night_, which is set in the more distant
future.

James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and
_Code of the Lifemaker_.  Neither have any explicit references to
libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist.  My favorite is
_Code of the Lifemaker_ whose characters include a (fake) psychic and a
debunker obviously based on The Amazing Randi.  Both books are a little
slow until the two differing groups meet, so skimming is excusable
(recommended?).

Ellen Spertus
Goodale 503
3 Ames Street
Cambridge, MA 02139

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 06:03:27 GMT
From: joel@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (joel s. kollin)
Subject: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin.  A very good book that gives insight
on how an anarchist civilization might work - or might not.

Read it.  Especially good to compare with Atlas Shrugged.

joel

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 21:37:16 GMT
From: josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall)
Subject: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

There are two short stories that are must reading on any individualist's
list:

Lipidleggin'   by the same F Paul Wilson
 (this can be found in The Survival of Freedom edited by Pournelle)

and

And Then There Were None  by Eric Frank Russell
(I don't know offhand where this can be found, check classic
anthologies)

JoSH

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:

	   Books -  Arthurian Stories (9 msgs) & Some Reviews &
                    Soylent Green & Request Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 04:05:48 GMT
From: c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu (Margaret S Pai)
Subject: Arthur books

OK, I posted on this subject before, but I forgot some, and since I haven't
seen anyone else mention them, I guess I will.

_Invitation to Camelot_ ed. by Parke Godwin, who wrote _Firelord_.  It's an
anthology of Arthur stories, which are all pretty good, by Morgan
Llewellyn, Tanith Lee, Jane Yolen, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, & etc.  Not only
are the stories good, but the anthology is a perfect opportunity to get a
taste of the styles of various authors who have written entire novels on
the subject.

A friend recommended _Merlin's Godson_, and _Merlin's Ring_ (I forget what
order they go in), by Somename Munn.  These are not about Arthur, per se,
but are based on the traditional canon.  From the blurbs I've read on their
backs, it deals with after Arthur's death, but that's all I know.

Also, John Steinbeck's (yes, that guy!) _The Acts of King Arthur and His
Knights_.  It might be "_and the Knights of the Round Table_", but it's
something like that.  It is, if I remember correctly, a sort-of translation
of Malory, processed through Steinbeck's brain, of course.  Not too bad,
but pretty traditional.  Nothing new that I recall.

Oh, and a brief reference to Arthur appeared in _Prince Ombra_ by Somename
(begins with an R) MacLiesch (sp).  _Prince Ombra_ really doesn't have much
to do with Arthur, but the reference stuck in my mind, because it has a
very interesting interpretation of the historical Arthur (how exactly DID
he pull a sword from a stone?).  Also, _Ombra_ follows the basic pattern of
the Arthur stories, and has a great premise for its own story, which fits
almost every hero story you can think of, incl. Arthur. (On purpose, btw).

OK, now I have a few requests of my own.  1) In the course of this
discussion, someone mentioned a book about a fifteenth-century brewery,
which sounded interesting: would you mind repeating it? (Sorry, had no
pencil at the time...)  2)Has anyone read any books about Alexander the
Great besides Mary Renault's?  I saw one once, basically a "what would have
happened if Alexander had marched on Rome?" but I didn't buy it, and now I
can't find it.  Anyone?  What about Robin Hood?  I realize these aren't in
quite the sf vein, but what the hey...

Margaret Pai

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 06:42:42 GMT
From: wlinden@dasys1.uucp (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>Nobody has mentioned Thomas Berger's ARTHUR REX.  Not the most faithful to
>the original canon, but a damn funny book just the same.  Arthur with none
>of the naughty words taken out.

Berger's work has charm, in its own cynical way, but he took on too much in
trying to handle the entire matter of Britain in one volume. For instance,
Mark keeps undergoing wild personality changes according to which source
the author is drawing on at the moment.  (For a contrasting treatment, we
have Boorman's "Excalibur", where he did not hesitate to take liberties for
the sake of thematic unity.)
 No one has mentioned THE PAGAN KING by Edison Marshall. This is a very
wild and grim rendition which seems closer to the Celtic originals. He also
introduces some moving verse (especially the excerpts from "The Song of
Camlon" [sic]; and an odd pattern of allusions to "King Lear". In a twist,
he ends with Artay disappearing into obscurity to _create his own legend_.
    Also particularly attractive is the depiction of his ambivalent
relation with his half-brother Modred. His final word is "In the song of
Arthur paint me as black as Modo if you like, but do not leave me out." And
the reader joins the answering cry of "Live, Modred, for the sake of all
who love bravery and mirth."

Will Linden
...{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 12:47:24 GMT
From: sysop@stech.uucp (Jan Harrington)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) says:
> Remember that the chronological gap between Malory and Arthur is twice as
> wide as that between Malory and T.H.White.  The customs, technology, etc.
> of 6th century Britain were quite different from those Malory knew.  I am
> not an expert medievalist, but I think all the stuff about heavily
> armored knights fighting in tournaments belongs to a much later period.

I think you're right.  I've been reading some historical stuff about the
period of 5th and 6th century Britain, and the heavy armoring appears to be
12th century and later.  During the 5th and 6th century, they had chain
mail shirts (mostly short sleeved).  Warriors were mounted, but used small
shields and spears, not lances.

Jan Harrington, sysop
Scholastech Telecommunications
UUCP: ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop
      allegra!stech!sysop
BITNET: JHARRY@BENTLEY

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 23:37:09 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
> Wasn't he originally a figure of Welsh legend?

Yes, according to history writer Geoffery Ashe, though offhand I do not
remember the name of his book (The Legend of Arthur?).  The name Artur (the
Bear) was the name of a Welsh warlord, though never a King of all Britania.

> I think all the stuff about heavily armored knights fighting in
> tournaments belongs to a much later period.

If you accept this Artur (not Arthur) as the source of the legends, then
you are right - the correct period had no formalized ranks of armored
knighthood.  At best they wore skins or leather jerkins and crude mail.
Their version of a tournament would be called a bar-room brawl by the
chivalrous class of 450-600 years later when suits of armor became the
dress of the day for knights.

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 20:18:01 GMT
From: jsw@whuts.uucp (WHALEN)
Subject: Re: Arthur books

The Alexander-the-Great-marching-on-Rome book probably was Melissa Scott's
_A Choice of Destinies_, it's really pretty good, I'd recommend it.

Jon Whalen
AT&T Bell Labs
Whippany, NJ
<world>!ulysses!pancho!jsw
pancho!jsw@ulysses.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 22:39:43 GMT
From: abbott@dean.berkeley.edu (+Mark Abbott)
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

sysop@stech.UUCP (Jan Harrington) writes:
>I think you're right.  I've been reading some historical stuff about the
>period of 5th and 6th century Britain, and the heavy armoring appears to
>be 12th century and later.  During the 5th and 6th century, they had chain
>mail shirts (mostly short sleeved).  Warriors were mounted, but used small
>shields and spears, not lances.

You both are definitely right.  Armor in 5th Century Britain was quite
different than what most of us associate with Arthurian tales.  The
wealthier Romano-British had some sort of mail shirts, probably lighter leg
coverings and helmets mostly in a Roman pattern.  It's not clear whether
the mail was really ringmail or true chainmail.  Warriors who weren't
wealthy were using much lighter or no armor.  The Angles and Saxons were
armored pretty similarly, but good equipment was still confined to the
wealthy.  Nope, lances weren't in use yet.  In the 5th Cent., stirrups
weren't in use yet in Europe.  Without stirrups, the shock of hitting
someone with a lance tends to knock you off your horse.

Mark Abbott
abbott@dean.berkeley.edu
{ihnp4, decwrl, sun, hplabs}!ucbvax!dean!abbott

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 22:51:50 GMT
From: A6C@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

> Remember that the chronological gap between Malory and Arthur is twice as
> wide as that between Malory and T.H.White.  The customs, technology, etc.
> of 6th century Britain were quite different from those Malory knew.  I am
> not an expert medievalist, but I think all the stuff about heavily
> armored knights fighting in tournaments belongs to a much later period.

That's quite true, but I didn't say that Malory's stories were in any way
historical (except with reference to the history of literature.  I said:

>...It is the source of much of what we know about Arthurian traditions,

In other words, it is essential for anyone who wants to understand where
most of the *modern* Arthurian stories came from.

>I think you're right.  I've been reading some historical stuff about the
>period of 5th and 6th century Britain, and the heavy armoring appears to
>be 12th century and later.  During the 5th and 6th century, they had chain
>mail shirts (mostly short sleeved).  Warriors were mounted, but used small
>shields and spears, not lances.

     Mail (I do not call it "chain" mail, because there aren't any other
kinds of mail (armor, that is; there are also e-mail (though I don't know
how it works), snail mail (though nobody knows how it works), etc.)) was
commonly used until the 13th century.  Then it was gradually replaced by
plate armor, which reached its highest level of development sometime around
the 15th century (Malory's period).  Mail continued to be used for the
purpose of filling in gaps between plates.
     Cavalry (note the relationship of this word to "cavalier" and
"chivalry") was not too important to warfare in Roman times.  It began to
become the most important part of the military in the Dark Ages, when some
invaders (perhaps the Huns?) brought stirrups to Europe.  It was after this
that Knighthood was first created, and it appeared first in France and the
Mediterranean region, so the historical King Arthur could hardly have had
knights.
     As for tournaments, the Code of Chivalry, etc., these date back to
about the 12th and 13th centuries, though our overly romanticized notions
about these sorts of things are strongly influenced by 19th century ideas
(which were based on literature rather than historical evidence).

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 19:37:26 GMT
From: A6C@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: Favourite Arthurian Novels ....

rja@edison.GE.COM (rja) says:
>I've read most everyone else's favourite, but still haven't seen mine.
>Catherine Christian's THE PENDRAGON to me 'feels' best.  Perhaps it is
>because it is strongly Celtic unlike the Anglo-Saxon influenced "knights
>in shining armor" rubbish.  Of course, those of anglo-saxon heritage will
>disagree with me, but as a Celt, I rather take exception to those
>modifications.

That "'knights in shining armor' rubbish" is Norman-French influenced
rather than Anglo-Saxon influenced.  And much of the rubbish involved with
it is Victorian-Romantic influenced.

>Katherine Kurtz also seems to be adopting a Cymric style and specifically
>mentions that the Cymric pronunciations are "correct" for her dominion.

"Kurtz" hardly seems to be a Celtic name, Cymric or otherwise.  If you ask
me, it looks like German.  Perhaps that is an indication that this
ethnicity business is a bit more complicated than you make it out to be.

Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 16:30:13 GMT
From: aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA 
Subject: Wandering away from the "Arthur" topic

I have been following the current discussion of books based on the Arthur
legends.  Somebody just asked for books slightly off the strict track of
Camelot and Arthur.  One I have not seem people mention is "Count
Belissarius" by Robert Graves (of I Claudius fame).  This novel takes place
at the same time as Arthur but in the Byzantium of Justinian.  Belissarius
was a real general who won back much of the Empire's old territory,
including much of Italy.  Graves used the "Secret History" of Procopius as
a source but does his usual poetic interpretation.  Graves explored
Belissarius as a "knight of the round table", i.e., a just and honorable
warrior in a less-than-perfect world.  The story is of chivalry, but in the
Eastern Empire of Rome.  I recommend it hightly.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 21:34:43 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Micro Reviews

THE REVOLVING BOY - Gertrude Friedberg (Ace Science Fiction Special)

  Well, I lied a bit.  This is from the original Ace Special series.  It is
the story of a boy born in space who grows up with a strange affinity for a
particular portion of the night sky.  An interesting and well-written book.
I believe it may originally have been a short story (I'd read it somewhere
before) - perhaps Jayembee will enlighten.

MY BROTHER'S KEEPER - Charles Sheffield (Ace)

  By coincidence, this is also an aging Ace paperback.  It is the story of
a twin who has a portion of his brother's brain implanted in his skull in
order to save his life.  He begins to take on some of the personality and
goals of his brother - and since his brother had a secret life, this
partial knowledge is both exciting and dangerous.  A surprisingly good and
I would guess overlooked book.  Some of the concepts are out of date with
current brain research, but these are minor nits.  Worth reading.

THE BREADS OF MAN - F.M. Busby (Bantam)

  Hey, this is not by Ace!  And published in the 80s, no less.  Oh well,
there went the streak.  Dealing with the AIDS virus leads (at second
remove) to a new kind of humanity.  The story concerns the fitting of these
Mark Two humans into society.  This is interesting, but I wondered about
the psychological differences Mark Twos would have from Mark Ones.
Nonetheless, a fast, fun read.

THE FOREVER WAR - Gordon R. Dickson (Ace)

  Whooh, thankfully another Ace.  An aging derelict spaceship is found, and
somehow the personality of the pilot has become imbued in the spaceship.
Soon the feat is duplicated on Jim Wander, and he's off to learn about an
alien menace and a mysterious Paradise.  A good read, but curious in a way.
It has the strengths and weaknesses of a 70s story (no surprise,
considering the author).  The strength is in the writing and the plotting.
The weakness is in the deus ex machina plot device that frees Jim Wander's
intellect from his body.  It's a variant on the old "put a man in a
sure-death situation and he'll learn to teleport" idea.  But many of
today's writers (I'm thinking in particular of some of the cyberpunk crowd)
could learn from Gordon how to construct a plot.

THE DARK SECRET OF WEATHEREND - John Bellairs (Bantam-Skylark)

  Strictly speaking, this is neither science fiction nor published by Ace.
It's a children's book.  Anthony Monday gets mixed up in mystery and gothic
horror.  I mention it because the author wrote THE FACE IN THE FROST, which
is one of the finest modern fantasies.  As pointed out earlier in
rec.art.books (and possibly here), Bellairs writes mostly children's books.
Keeping in mind the intended audience, this is quite a good book, and I'll
probably buy more.

RODERICK AT RANDOM - John Sladek (Carroll & Graf)

  This is the story of a robot set loose in a not-so-distant future.  It
is, I think, intended to be primarily social commentary.  For me, most of
the commentary is weak and not particularly insightful.  On the other hand,
it was nominated for the 1981 National Book Award, and David Pringle
considers it one of the 100 Best Science Fiction novels.  You'll have to
decide for yourself.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
srt@cs.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 88 19:46:43 GMT
From: merchie@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Anthony Wiggins)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk References

The problem with Soylent Green is that it could take place, with or without
the technology that's associated with cyberpunk.  The characteristics of
Soylent Green are over-population (not a function of technology), and a
disapplication of medical/biological technology (borderline, at best).
 
If anything, Soylent Green seemed to be lacking in any kind of technical
prowess, where humanity is the only machine I saw. [or lack thereof]

....just a thought to embroil upon.....

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 15:08:31 GMT
From: larsa@nada.kth.se (Lars Andersson)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

>bk0h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brett Kuehner) writes:
> 	I read this short story many years ago, and I would like to find it
> again.  The basic plot was that there were two human scientists/inventors
> who were challenged by aliens to replicate various alien inventions.

This must be "The Cube Root of Uncertainty" by Robert Silverberg, which
used to be available in a collection of his stories. The collection is
named after this story.

BTW: Can anyone explain to me why people consider C.J. Cherryh to be such
an interesting writer? I have tried several of her books without being able
to muster up any enthusiasm. "Downbelow Station" which has been highly
praised, I couldn't even finish. Am I missing something interesting here?

larsa@nada.kth.se

------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 16 Mar 88 09:38:38 EST
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #96
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Anthony & Herbert & Niven (4 msgs) &
                       Pournelle (2 msgs) & Shepard & 
                       Verne (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 23:58:50 GMT
From: jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers

A4S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>How about examples of other GOOD Anthony series: Cluster,Tarot,Bio of a
>Space Tyrant

The first two series aren't bad, for Anthony.  They're mildly entertaining
if you're still 14 (as I was when I started reading Anthony).  As for Bio,
the first book was so depressingly morbid that I had to think long and hard
before picking up any of the others (I eventually read the whole series,
but did *not* consider it quality).

  The problem is, as many others have stated, that Anthony writes the same
story over and over again.  He has a talent for creating worlds (and, in
some cases, characters), but basically, they're all the same.

>In general, I don't like to make blanket statements about writers unless
>you've read the majority of their work. Often you find something you
>missed which changes your opinion completly.

At last count, I had over 40 novels by Anthony, and have read at least 20
more (that I didn't consider good enough to buy).  They're good, light,
non-cerebral fiction, with a very large escapist element.  I recommend them
to children, but not to many others.  The problem is, I rarely read them
more than once.  When I was 14, I read the three Xanth books over and over
again, but now if I force myself to buy one, I may only read it once.

  I wouldn't call Anthony a "hack" writer (although I can see why many
would!), I'd call him a "niche" writer, for someone who's found his place,
and his audience, and fills it.

Now, as for Foster...

jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
The Ohio State University

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 14:27:27 GMT
From: bseymour@potpourri.uucp (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

>sequels are so different and so bad.  My own theory (well, it came up in a
>discussion a while back) is that he wrote only the sequels.  Perhaps he
>won the "Dune" manuscript in a poker game.  Or stole it.

Close. I always wondered the same things as in this posting, most of which
I deleted (look for the original). How could Dune be so good and everything
else be so mediocre or bad. Well I heard something that I can't confirm,
but it would explain a lot.  That is Dune was written for John Campbell.
Now if you've read Asimov's autobiography or the blurbs in many of his
books, you'll know that John was very actively involved in helping the
writer get a good story out. My theory is that there was a creative synergy
between the two that resulted in Dune. After Herbert got famous, he could
print what he wanted thus the drivel that followed.

For another, less extreme, example compare the writings of Niven and
Pournelle as a team and solo.

bs

------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 88 03:39:15 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Favorite alien survey--RESULTS

wwd@rruxjj.UUCP (bill donahue) writes:
> The impression I had gotten was that the Hindmost would have to be
> considered insane because of her(?)  bravery. She was called `hindmost'
> because she would be the last to flee with the rest of the puppeteers.

I believe that the title "hindmost" was bestowed on whoever was the current
leader (this is *wrong* terminology, see below) of the puppeteer
government; who had the honor and good fortune to lead the race...from well
to the rear.

The "hindmost" got to be in the most desirable position for a puppeteer, as
far away from the van as possible.  (The terminology didn't map exactly to
reality, however, as much terminology doesn't...the "hindmost" had to take
the risk of making possibly disasterous decisions and then being held
responsible for them.)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 04:01:55 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Least favorite aliens: Pierson's Puppeteers.
>   Even Larry has since realised that carnivores tend to be much more
>   civilised towards each other than herbivores. Besides, how much
>   intelligence does it take to sneak up on a leaf?

One thing about Niven's aliens that I've always found very predictable is
that they all take purely human attributes to an extreme.  There is litte
or nothing new in their outlooks.  He thinks up interesting shapes, but
that's about as far as it goes.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 88 08:19:03 GMT
From: mok@pawl21.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>One thing about Niven's aliens that I've always found very predictable is
>that they all take purely human attributes to an extreme.  There is litte
>or nothing new in their outlooks.  He thinks up interesting shapes, but
>that's about as far as it goes.

   Try the moties. They were fairly alien. The trunks (from Footfall) were
an interesting idea also. But yes, they are aspects of human personalities
grafted onto a few differences. If you want truely alien aliens, read David
Brin. His aliens are not jarringly different (intelligence must be
recognizable as such by us or it doesn't make for a good book), but they
are subtly alien. They are all different from us, each in it's own way, yet
enough like us that we can comprehend their motives. Very well done.
   
mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 03:26:08 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

mok@pawl21.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>>One thing about Niven's aliens that I've always found very predictable is
>>that they all take purely human attributes to an extreme.  There is litte
>>or nothing new in their outlooks.  He thinks up interesting shapes, but
>>that's about as far as it goes.
>   Try the moties. They were fairly alien. The trunks (from Footfall) were
>an interesting idea also.

I did mean Niven when I said it, not Niven/Pournelle, who are far better
together than either taken alone.  The moties were very well done.

> But yes, they are aspects of human personalities grafted onto a few
>differences. If you want truely alien aliens, read David Brin. His aliens
>are not jarringly different (intelligence must be recognizable as such by
>us or it doesn't make for a good book), but they are subtly alien. They
>are all different from us, each in it's own way, yet enough like us that
>we can comprehend their motives. Very well done.

I liked Startide Rising, but the rest were very weak.  The Tymbrini in the
Uplift War especially suffer from this problem - just like people with an
insufferably childish sense of humor (i.e. practical jokers).

Actually, in how many sf books are there aliens that aren't highly
sterotyped?  You know: all Puppeteers are cowards, all Tymbrini are
practical jokers, etc..  The author may recognize this fault in the obvious
case and throw in a misfit or two, but there is only *one* ideal Puppeteer,
and it is a coward.  The same applies to other alien types.  How many
"ideal types" do people have?  And remember, I'm talking personality types,
not physical types!

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 16:40:07 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Janissaries and Sequels

shefter-bret@CS.YALE.EDU (Bret A. Shefter) writes:
>Toward the end of the summer (of 1987), I came across the third in this
>series, a pre-release hardback copy. I haven't seen it since. Does anyone
>know where one can obtain the third book (or what it's called, even)?
>Please e-mail re- sponses: no need to clutter up the net with this.

The title is 'Janissaries III', which gets marks for honesty, anyway.  I
saw it in paperback 3 weeks ago in Waldenbooks, so it should also be found
in real bookstores.

If you read Vols I and II, well, Vol III is more of the same.  The plot
lines are still not converging, so expect several more volumes.  We do seem
to be converging on two badly-described battles per book, though.  My major
disappointment with the sequels is that we are slowly losing the thing that
promised to be most interesting in Vol I: the coexistence of several Terran
cultures grabbed from different times in our history, and the problems
their interaction posed.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 09:53:48 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Janissaries III

mikevp@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) says:
>haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>> The main thing we learn from reading Janissaries III, by Pournelle and
>> Green, is that there will be a Janissaries IV and almost surely a
>> Janissaries V before the tale is told.  Aside from that, no surprises.
>
> I see Roland Green made the cover this time.  I hope it's better than
> "Clan and Crown".  That one seemed to lack that Pournelle 'spark',
> whatever it is, that makes me like Pournelle's writing so much.  I wonder
> if Green wrote it to a Pournelle outline.

I picked it up in the library about 2 months ago. Bletch. Not a bit better
than Janissaries II.

My first instinct is to say that Roland Green is a lousy writer (he wrote
the books, from outlines supplied by Pournelle). But I can't really blame
him, I guess. It must really be hard to get inside the skin of characters
you didn't invent. Maybe that's why they wander around like so many meat
puppets.

The first book, just plain old "Jannisaries", had some fairly ridiculous
plotting at times. But there WERE some memorable characters. Like Gwen. Who
can forget poor Gwen. In practically a paragraph vignette, Pournelle makes
her jump out of the page (and in combination with the exquisite artwork....
wow.). And then for the next two books all we see some sorta smart broad
who runs a university, and only from time to time at that. And of course
she acts all stoopid and dippy all the time, because Roland Green
apparently watches too much TV (where our hero always rescues swooning
ladies, of course).  Disgusting, seeing Pournelle's characters abused like
that... but it's his own fault. Fooey.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191        
Lafayette, LA 70509              
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 88 19:26:50 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: LIFE DURING WARTIME by Lucius Shepard

		   LIFE DURING WARTIME by Luciu Shepard
			Bantam, 1987,0-553-34381-5
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Set in Central America sometime in the near future, this novel is a
collection of four novellas, "R & R," "The Good Soldier," "Fire Zone
Emerald," and "Sector Jade."  The first was nominated for a Hugo in 1987;
if the others have appeared previously, then the book gives no indication
of this (nor, for that matter for "R & R" either).

     David Mingolla is a soldier in Free Occupied Guatemala just trying to
survive, but as the novel progresses he finds out more and more about
himself and about the forces behind the war.  This starts out as basically
a war novel, but gradually becomes more fantastic (in a literal sense) as
psychic powers become another weapon to be used in the war.  His journey
through the jungles has echoes of Dante's journey through the underworld
combined with the concept of "rites of passage."  It's not for everyone--I
can't say I really enjoyed it, but then war stories are not my particular
cup of tea.  LIFE DURING WARTIME is not your usual science fiction war
story--there is not a lot of emphasis on tactics or battles with amazing
weapons.  It's a more sedate story about what goes on behind wars, and the
day-to-day life during a war.  In the latter regard it has more in common
with something like Manlio Argueta's A DAY OF LIFE than with, say, David
Drake's HAMMER'S SLAMMERS.  LIFE DURING WARTIME is not being marketed as
science fiction, no doubt because the audience it would appeal to is
probably more attuned to the mainstream novel.  In fact, it's being
marketed as a trade paperback, similar to the "yuppie fiction paperbacks"
that are so common now.  If it sounds interesting, look for it in that
section of your bookstore.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 15:24:27 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Jules Verne (was: Multiple Volume Novels)

BREEBAAR@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
> *** MAJOR SPOILER COMING UP - READ EVERYTHING BY JULES VERNE FIRST...***
> Evelyn Leeper on splitting novels in parts and calling the result a 
> 'trilogy':
> > ... I wish to point out a book that I just finished reading which does
> > this. It is Jules Verne's INTO THE NIGER BEND ...
>
> Come to think of it, this is not the only way in which Jules Verne
> predates a 'modern' trend. Everybody is familiar with the way in which
> people like Asimov are writing novels in which all their seperate and
> earlier 'universes' come together. But this also was done long ago by
> Verne!

[THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND is in same universe as 20,000 LEAGUES, etc.]

And there is yet another way in which Verne predated a modern trend.
There's been a lot of traffic about books written by one author set in
another author's universe.  Well, Verne did that, too.  He wrote a sequel
to Edgar Allan Poe's THE NARRATIVE OF ARTHUR GORDON PYM; I forget the
title, but I think it was subtitled "An Antarctic Adventure".

Gee, Verne keeps earning that "Grandfather of Modern SF" title, doesn't he?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 15:36:39 GMT
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Jules Verne: Captain Nemo *SPOILER*

*** SPOILER ABOUT "MYSTERIOUS ISLAND" COMING UP ***

BREEBAAR@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
>Come to think of it, this is not the only way in which Jules Verne
>predates a 'modern' trend. Everybody is familiar with the way in which
>people like Asimov are writing novels in which all their seperate and
>earlier 'universes' come together.

And very cramped and contrieved it turns out, too!

>But this also was done long ago by Verne!

>It's in 'The Mysterious Island', a story about five men (and a dog) who
>escape from a Southern prison camp during the American Civil War in a
>balloon, and get stranded on an uninhabited island where they have to live
>for years, and where some very strange things start happening.
>
>Not only is this one of my all-time favourite novels - I must've read
>it dozens >and dozens of times - but it will also give readers who
>already know '20.000 Whatchamacallits Under

Leagues Beneath

>The Sea' and 'Captain Grant's children' some very pleasant surprises. Ever
>wondered what happened to Captain Nemo?

And Verne's attempt turned out very cramped and contrieved too.  There are
major discrepancies between "20.000 Leagues" and "Mysterious Island", not
the least in Nemo's character.

(Guess I'll have to go home and reread my Verne now; Leo will propably want
me to justify this posting).

Don't get me wrong. Verne is a terrific writer.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 16:37:07 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Jules Verne (was: Multiple Volume Novels)

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu writes:
> [Verne] wrote a sequel to Edgar Allan Poe's THE NARRATIVE OF ARTHUR
>GORDON PYM; I forget the title, but I think it was subtitled "An Antarctic
>Adventure".

The title is The Sphynx of the Ice Fields (Le Sphynx des Glaces).  Other
stories probably influenced by A Gordon Pym are Lovecraft's At the
Mountains of Madness and John Taine's The Greatest Adventure.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 88 01:13:48 GMT
From: herve@cvl.umd.edu (Jean-Yves Herve)
Subject: Re: Jules Verne (was: Multiple Volume Novels)

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu.UUCP (Robert Firth) writes:
>The title is The Sphynx of the Ice Fields (Le Sphynx des Glaces).  Other
>stories probably influenced by A Gordon Pym are Lovecraft's At the
>Mountains of Madness and John Taine's The Greatest Adventure.

And what about the end of The Lord of the Ring?  I have allways thought
that the departure of the last ship from the Heavens (white light seen by
Froddo) was very similar to the end of Arthur Gordon Pym.

Jean-Yves Herve'

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 21 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Adams & Anthony (3 msgs) & Cherryh &
                       Herbert & Kurland & McDonald &
                       Moorcock (2 msgs) & Niven

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 01:03:32 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Ending of _Dirk Gently_

   I just finished reading Douglas Adams' _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
Agency_ and am a bit confused about the ending.  I think I'm dense in not
understanding clearly what happened so please excuse my stupidity but
please help a poor man get the most out of this book!

* possible spoilers * 

How did the gang stop the alien from preventing the evolution of human life
on Earth?

Why does the Professor (I think) say that there'll be two ghosts of the
alien running around now?

How does stealing Coleridge's poems (is that what they did?)  help their
cause?

   Sorry if these are stupid questions.  I read them at a frenzied speed (I
needed to get back to taking my Theory of Comp.  work real fast).
Disclaimer: My reading level does not necessary reflect the reading ability
of most Swarthmore College students.  :-)

Thanks for taking the time to read this.  Please reply!

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai 
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet 
Internet: bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 20:54:20 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!vsi1!steve@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Steve Maurer)
Subject: Not "hack" - "pulp"  (was Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers)

    Piers Anthony is not a "hack" writer, he is a "pulp fiction" writer.
In fact, he is one of the last authors I know who still write (albeit
perhaps unintentionally) in a pulp fiction style, which includes:

   1] Highly imaginative, ridiculously improbable worlds.
   2] Overbearingly obvious allegory
   3] Narrative style from the hero (95% male)
   4] Simplistic romance (boy always gets girl at the end)
   5] Impossible odds (villain is enormously powerful)
   6] Occasional Deus Ex Machina (hero finds single "chink" in
      villain's armor, usually by a leap of specious reasoning;
      or vice versa, villain defeats hero, usually by applying
      "magic" that hero didn't mention until villain used it)
   7] Literary Affections (in Anthony's case, puns)
   8] Science that, even on the surface, is wrong
   9] Voluminous literary output
  10] Perfectly moralistic hero, forced by circumstance to do what
      seems to "object-of-romantic-desire" to be evil.
  11] Plot hurdles: hero always faces only one problem which he must
      overcome in that chapter; next chapter, next hurdle.
  12] Trilogies, pentologies, octologies, etc.

In short, pure camp.

    Now some people don't like this, and other's do.  Personally, I find
reading a good (or bad) Piers Anthony book at times to be like watching
re-runs of "Lost in Space", very relaxing.  On the other hand, you better
not pay attention to me, sometimes I actually *like* Gor books :-)

Steve Maurer
pyramid!vsi1!steve

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 20:03:23 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers

A4S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>How about examples of other GOOD Anthony series:
>
>Cluster

ARE YOU KIDDING? This series was possibly even worse than the Apprentice
Adept series. The two are tied for Worst Series I Have *Ever* Read award.
He made up a bunch of alien ways to fuse bodies in slimy sexual acts, and
then that's what he wrote about. He made the cultures of these aliens
parallel in every conceivable way their sexual union's form. AND THAT'S IT.
They weren't even as good as porn meant as porn. They certainly had no
intellectual, literary, artistic, escapist, entertaining, jounalistic,
speculative, or any other type of value that a book or series might have in
various combinations.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk          

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 19:53:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers

I agree with whoever posted the note saying Anthony starts out well and
peters out.  I liked the first Blue Adept book a lot, the second nearly as
much, and was really let down with the third.  I enjoyed _On a Pale Horse_,
then read _Bearing an Hourglass_ and stopped.  The Xanth series has gone on
long enough to recover from an initial slump and have several highs and
lows; I like _A Spell for Chameleon_, _Castle Roogna_, and _Night Mare_
best (I haven't read the last 2 or 3).

But I was really turned off with _Bio_: 1) The whole scenario of the solar
system hundreds of years from now nearly *exactly* repeating current
history was too big to swallow.  And why would neighboring enemies want to
colonize other worlds in a way to set up the same mess on a larger scale?
Anthony should either have taken the idea of colonization by different
nations and let the history follow a different course, or made an out-right
allegory if he wanted to comment on current affairs.  2) I was not
entertained by explicit descriptions of Hope's endless sexual encounters.
3) I disliked what I perceived to be his politics, namely impatience with
the democratic process and a desire for a military man to take over, become
a Tyrant, and impose his solution on everybody.  I may be mistaken in
atributing this belief to him, but I think the blurb "my most important
work" refers to the political side of _Bio_.

I've not considered Anthony a great writer, nor as bad as many here say.
At his best, he is a pleasant read, with intriguing ideas, and good at
setting up real personal dilemmas which are resolved in a satisfying way.
It's not easy to tell when he'll be at his best beforehand, though.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 04:28:13 GMT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Cherryh

Someone asked about CJ Cherryh's appeal.  The device she uses over and over
is to put either the main character or the reader into the middle of an
alien culture, preferably with some kind of political intrigue precipitated
thereby.  When they work, her books are some of the most compelling of
recent years.  I suggest you try the Chanur series; if that doesn't pull
you in, there's no point your trying further Cherryh.  (One man's opinion).

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 21:15:35 GMT
From: blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

bseymour@potpourri.UUCP (Burch Seymour) writes:
>Close. I always wondered the same things as in this posting, most of which
>I deleted (look for the original). How could Dune be so good and
>everything else be so mediocre or bad. Well I heard something that I can't
>confirm, but it would explain a lot.  That is Dune was written for John
>Campbell. Now if you've read Asimov's autobiography or the blurbs in many
>of his books, you'll know that John was very actively involved in helping
>the writer get a good story out. My theory is that there was a creative
>synergy between the two that resulted in Dune. After Herbert got famous,
>he could print what he wanted thus the drivel that followed.

FLAME ON

Arghh, I hate this stuff.  Several times now in different contexts people
have proposed the theory to me that Herbert did not write "DUNE" and it
certainly makes me mad.  I think that conjecture like this is definitely
maligning a great writer.

I can grant that some of his works are better than others; even that some
are trash.  But I don't see any reason to throw out the baby with the wash
water.  I hated Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune, but loved God Emperor
of Dune, and liked both Heretics and Chapterhouse.  And Dune is perhaps one
of my favorite books.

Let me tell you about a recent experience I had.  I bought "Medea: Harlan's
World" which included a short story by Frank Herbert.  I started reading it
without looking at the author, and about two pages into I exclaimed to
myself, "This reads just like DUNE!".  And sure enough it was the one by
Herbert.  So, while I can agree that his writing is uneven, I certainly
won't believe that anyone else wrote DUNE.  I can believe that he was
influenced by the editor, but that is as far as I will go.

FLAME OFF.

Thank you, I feel much better now.

Brian Utterback
Cray Research Inc
One Tara Blvd. #301
Nashua NH. 03062
(603) 888-3083
UUCP:{ihnp4!cray,sun!tundra}!hall!blu 
ARPA:blu%hall.cray.com@uc.msc.umn.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 21:39:31 GMT
From: wlinden@dasys1.uucp (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Kurland

rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>Apart from the new Lord D'Arcy book and the Moriarty trilogy (of which the
>third is still pending) I don't know of any Kurland pastiches. Please let
>me know the titles of any you know.

Well, there was THE UNICORN GIRL, which took off from Chester Anderson's
novel THE BUTTERFLY KID. Anderson had introduced a character named Michael
Kurland.
  The cast also lands in the Anglo-French Empire (which Kurland insists on
calling "the Angevin Empire"), where his name gets him under suspicion of
being a Polish spy. (Note the Crown Prince's appanage in the new book).
This gave him his first chance to assault, er, pay homage to the
characters, including "Lord Gart" himself.

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 17:30:33 GMT
From: srt@aero.uucp
Subject: Re: Ian McDonald

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>Just a quick plug for "Desolation road" by Ian McDonald
>(ISBN 0-553-27057-5), an amazing first novel.

_Desolation Road_ isn't, strictly speaking, a novel.  It is more like a
collection of short stories with a tenuous thread connecting them.  I found
it tedious, repetitious and boring.  Admittedly, I wasn't able to finish
it, but to my own credit I also bought _Empire Dreams_ to see if McDonald's
admitted short stories were any better than the thinly-concealed ones in
_Desolation Road_.  They weren't.

As for cyberpunk influences, I thought they were marginal, and tending to
increase as the book went on - an indication that McDonald's writing was
changing over the time he wrote the book.  Not necessarily bad, but in this
case I think it emphasizes how wandering and poorly-thought out the book
was.

A particular problem I had with _Desolation Road_ was the plethora of
characters.  There wasn't a single character I really identified with or
cared about, so keeping track of dozens of them was near-impossible.  Small
wonder, really, considering the small space of time and effort he gives to
each character.  Characters go from children to retired adults in a few
short, disinterested pages.  (i.e., small boy, pool player, retired...)

Not a good book at all.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 04:48:46 GMT
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro)
Subject: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

Fellow netlanders,

What do you feel is the best order to read Michael Moorcock's Eternal
Champion series of series.  I own the Elric Saga, The Swords Trilogy, the
Chronicles of Corum, the Hawkmoon Series, the Chronicles of Count Brass,
The Eternal Champion, The Silver Warriors, and The Dragon in the Sword.
I've read them all, and I know someone who's interested in reading them.

What I'm curious to find out is what you feel is the optimum (makes the
most sense while containing the least spoilers) order of reading the
various series.  Also, what do you think is the best series?  I personally
like the Elric series the best because I like the way the albino's tortured
sould is portrayed.  I also like the idea of using (* small spoiler*) the
common chapters between various books.  I also liked the end of the Quest
for Tanelorn, since we get to see (* rather LARGE spoiler *) how individual
Champions died, who Stormbringer really is, in the final getting rid of the
whole damn Cosmic Balance and supreme Law and Chaos.  It's not that I am
dissatisfied with the idea of the thing, it's just that it's good to see
humans free of the Balance's overlording and the Eternal Champion finally
finds peace.

One other thing - what do you feel is the internal chronology?  I've had
arguments with some friends and I'm trying to get evidence.  I think Elric
is first - it ends with the creation of our universe.  Hawkmoon/Count Brass
is sometime not long after WWIII, Corum is some more thousands of years
after that.  John Daker starts in the 20th century but goes God knows
where.  Am I reasonable, or completely confused?

Finally, how are the Cornelius Chronicles and the Dancers at the End of
Time series?  Based on what pathetic shreds of evidence of my tastes I've
left behind in this posting, do you think I'd like them.  Also, did
Moorcock always intend on having one huge linked multiverse with various
incarnations and avatars, or did he slowly concieve it over time?  For
instance, Jerry Cornelius is, I believe, featured in the Cornelius
Chronicles, and is (from back cover blurb) a science-fictiony rogue.  Yet
he also seems to be an incarnation of the Eternal Companion.  Did Moorcock
always intend that, or was it a later unification.

Ah well, sorry about running off at the mouth (er, fingers :-), but I
really like the Moorcock's Eternal Champion superseries (or 4-d series or
whatever the proper term is for a series of series), and haven't seen
anyone mention him or them since I've been on this group for the last few
months.

Feel free to send flames, email, helpful suggestions, commentary,
arguments, whatever.  And post, too.  Thanks, all - and to any MIT students
out there, or those on similar schedules, have a great Spring Break and
HAVE SOME FUN!  Or to quote Bill Shatner, GET A LIFE! :-)

Richard L. Carreiro
rlcarr@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 05:44:05 GMT
From: soren@reed.uucp (Hey Kids!!  Comics!!)
Subject: Re:  Individualism & Favorite Aliens

Neither of the series is Sword & Sorcery--the Legends at the End of Time
series is wonderful: Really good satire, about a society that is quite
literally all-powerful, and what happens when a Victorian woman finds
herself in it.

The Cornelius books are "experimental", meaning that most of the time, they
don't really tell a story as such (and when they do it doesn't make a hell
of a lot of sense.  I read the series many many years ago, in High School,
and frankly, I just didn't grok it.  I do recall enjoying it, more or less,
even if I didn't know what was going on.

>Also, did Moorcock always intend on having one huge linked multiverse with
>various incarnations and avatars, or did he slowly concieve it over time?
>For instance, Jerry Cornelius is, I believe, featured in the Cornelius
>Chronicles, and is (from back cover blurb) a science-fictiony rogue.  Yet
>he also seems to be an incarnation of the Eternal Companion.  Did Moorcock
>always intend that, or was it a later unification.

Moorcock's conception of the Multiverse, includes--well--everything.  It
certainly includes all his novels, S&S or not.  Even his mainstream novels
connect.  I don't know how early he conceived it--I have a feeling it was
after quite a few (maybe all) the Elric stories were published.

Soren Petersen,
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 02:10:10 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Hindmost puppeteer

abl@OHM.ECE.CMU.EDU (Antonio Leal) says:
>> fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix):
>> The "hindmost" got to be in the most desirable position for a puppeteer,
>> as far away from the van as possible.
>
>Funny, I always thought of it in the context of "the devil take the
>hindmost".  Thus the chief is the last to flee, the rash imprudent who
>comes closest to being taken. That jibes with the fact that The Hindmost
>was considered somewhat crazy (by his own admission) and went out among
>humans to take care of the last details of the puppeteer flight out of the
>galaxy.

Of course [isn't nit-picking fun?], the Hindmost in question was a _former_
Hindmost, having been exiled.  I assume this Hindmost was also of the
Experimentalist faction, which is only in power at times of great danger to
the puppeteers, and is deposed as soon as it deals with the problem.

The Experimentalists are generally considered insane anyway, so we've never
had a glimpse of a normal puppeteer (unless you count Chiron).

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 21 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:

		     Books - Gardner & Smith & Verne &
                             Vinge & Watson (2 msgs) & 
                             Zelazny (2 msgs) & 
                             Arthurian Stories (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 21:03:07 GMT
From: dawes@qucis.bitnet
Subject: Gardner vs. Gardner

There are (or were until recently) two John Gardners.  The one who wrote
Grendel, Freddy's Book, The Sunshine Dialogues, The King's Indian, and a
few others, was a scholar of some sort who died a year or two ago.

The other one writes (apparently with permission of Fleming's estate) James
Bond novels, and other adventure stories.

Of the two, I greatly prefer the first.  Grendel in particular is a
delightful retelling of the Beowulf story from the monster's viewpoint.
The last line in particular is wonderful - I first read this book years
ago, and the ending has stayed with me ever since.  Probably just one of
those serendipitous matching of mood and what I was reading at the time,
which wouldn't affect me the same way if I were reading it for the first
time now.

Robin Dawes

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 14:31:09 GMT
From: boyajian@akofin.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Re: Cordwainer Smith

From:	sunybcs!ansley	(William H. Ansley)
> ...All of his SF books have been reprinted by Ballantine Books within the
> last 5 - 10 years..._The Planet Buyer_ is only one-half of the novel
> _Nortstralia_ (his only SF novel).

Pedantic correction: NORSTRILIA.

> In case you're wondering why I keep qualifying CS's work as being SF, he
> wrote 2 mainstream novels as Cornelias Smith.

Nope. His first two novels, RIA (1947) and CAROLA (1948) --- both
mainstream --- were published under the name Felix C. Forrest. His third
novel was a suspense novel titled ATOMSK (1949) and published under the
name Carmichael Smith.

- --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:	...!{decwrl|decuac}!akofin.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:	boyajian%akofin.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">
^_ABYL OPTIONS:
Version: 5
Labels:
Note:   This is the header of an rmail file.
Note:   If you are seeing it in rmail,
Note:    it means the file has no messages in it.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 11:55:20 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Jules Verne (was: Multiple Volume Novels)

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu writes:
> [THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND is in same universe as 20,000 LEAGUES, etc.]

No, it is a sequel.  I hardly think that authors writing sequels to their
own stories is a modern trend.  (Perhaps that was meant facetiously.)

> And there is yet another way in which Verne predated a modern trend.
> There's been a lot of traffic about books written by one author set in
> another author's universe.  Well, Verne did that, too.  He wrote a sequel
> to Edgar Allan Poe's THE NARRATIVE OF ARTHUR GORDON PYM; I forget the
> title, but I think it was subtitled "An Antarctic Adventure".

We probably should distinguish between a genuine sequel and just writing in
another universe.  People have written sequels to other peoples' works for
a long time.  In order to write in someone else's universe you must first
have a fictional universe, which you didn't in the above novels.  Even
then, if you continue the adventures of the same characters what you have
is a sequel written by someone else, not a novel written in someone else's
universe.

> Gee, Verne keeps earning that "Grandfather of Modern SF" title, doesn't
> he?

Only if you say that science fiction, like most people, has two
grandfathers.  My choice is the man who invented the time travel novel, the
alien invasion novel, wrote stories about terrorists using germ warfare,
wrote about warfare with bombs that destroy whole cities (for which he
coined the term "atomic bomb" -- in 1914), wrote one of the early space
travel and first contact stories.  He didn't write about genetic
engineering, but wrote at least two novels that cover many of the basic
issues.  He also invented the future history chronicling a future of
mankind in three stories set in widely separated periods.  Wells did all
this before 1915 (or perhaps a little later).

This is not to downgrade Verne's contribution which certainly was great,
but 90 years after Wells hit his prime there still has not been another
author who can touch him for creative contributions to the field.  Verne,
while good, is dwarfed by a giant of his own times.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 09:03:08 GMT
From: andy@ecrcvax.uucp (Andrew Dwelly)
Subject: The other plane, or cyberspace.

I just finished reading Vernor Vinge's _True Names_, mostly set in his
version of cyberspace, which has been decorated to look like a rather good
adventure game.

Since the concept of cyberspace seems to rely on brain <-> computer links I
was lead to wonder how close we actually are to creating such a thing.
Didn't I see a report that the American Air Force was doing an experiment
along these lines ?. Also in Ted Nelsons _Computer Lib/Dream machines_ he
mentions someone using a computer and EEG to slowly type words on the
display. A cursor would move along an alphabet along the top, and whenever
a burst of alpha waves was detected, the current letter would be added to
the word. Apparently this was semi-usable with practice.

Both of those example were primitive output, is anyone doing any further
work ?, what about input ?, speculations anyone ?

Andrew Dwelly                 
E.C.R.C.     
ArabellaStrasse 17 			       
D-8000 Muenchen 81, West Germany
UUCP: mcvax!unido!ecrcvax!andy
CSNET:ecrcvax!andy@Germany.CSNET
UUCP Domain:  andy@ecrcvax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 88 05:47:46 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: BECOMING ALIEN by Rebecca Ore

hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu writes:
>like Grains of Sand_) reflect this interest. I also recall vaguely that
>some of Ian Watson's books address problems of deciphering alien
>languages.

I believe the book your thinking about is called _The Embedding_. This is a
strange but highly original and well written book. I can't seem to sort its
plot out in my mind right now, I think it was quite complex, but a
recursive spoken language somewhat like lisp (at least that's the way I
pictured it) figures prominantly in the story. The book is highly
recommended for those who like untraditional sf.

John L. McKernan
Student, Computer Science, Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 09:21:20 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: The Embedding by Ian Watson

jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (John L McKernan) writes:
>I believe the book your thinking about is called _The Embedding_. This is
>a strange but highly original and well written book. I can't seem to sort
>its plot out in my mind right now, I think it was quite complex, but a
>recursive spoken language somewhat like lisp (at least that's the way I
>pictured it) figures prominantly in the story. The book is highly
>recommended for those who like untraditional sf.

Curiously, I also thought of _The Embedding_ when linguistics and sf were
mentioned.

The book starts off with a British linguistic project (top secret, of
course) which is raising children who are taught only artificial languages.
One of the languages is highly embedded.  At the same time an old friend of
the British scientist, has discovered a Brazilian tribe whose native
language is highly embedded.

It seems to me that the embedding is also done in some other way in the
book (perhaps the plot is embedded).

For those who don't know what embedding is, here is the example given in
the book:

Take the nursery rhyme "...the dog that chased the cat that worried the rat
that ate the malt..." and rewrite it as "This is the malt that the rat that
the cat that the dog chased worried ate".

This book is not recommended for everyone, but perhaps you linguists out
there might be interested.

Dan Tilque
dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Mar 88 23:27:06 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Upcoming Amber

I've seen this question a couple of times recently, and finally have an
answer. The next Amber book to be published will be Sign of Chaos, #8 (#3
of five in the second Amber Trilogy), as an Avon paperback in July, which
means you'll really see it in June. The Ninth book, who's name I can't
remember, will be an Arbor House hardback sometime in the fall, probably
October.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 02:20:00 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!cerebus!ronc@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Sign of Chaos is on shelves! (no spoiler) (was Re: Upcoming Amber)

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>I've seen this question a couple of times recently, and finally have an
>answer. The next Amber book to be published will be Sign of Chaos, #8 (#3
>of five in the second Amber Trilogy), as an Avon paperback in July, which
>means you'll really see it in June. The Ninth book, who's name I can't
>remember, will be an Arbor House hardback sometime in the fall, probably
>October.

It's out now.  I bought mine last Saturday at Printer's Inc.

Magnificent revelations abound, but the best part of this book is that
someone at last calls Merle on his incredible naivete.  He starts acting
like he's got a brain in his head, after all.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.)
amdahl!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 88 10:45:17 GMT
From: pasquier@lifia.uucp (JoKeR)
Subject: Arthurian references : a rather complete list

As I have seen recently some postings about Arthurian references, I think
the following list (resulting from a personal compilation) will be of
interest for some people...

Needless to say I am a fanatic reader of Arthurian novels! So any new entry
will please me very much, as well as any precision about the existing ones
(you will notice I lack many editor's references).

	       ****  Bibliography of the Arthurian Myth  ***

			   The Historical Matter

Aue  Hartman von	Iwein et Erec
Beroul			Le Roman de Tristan
Boron  Robert de	Conte du Graal
Boron  Robert de	Merlin			Lib. Droz, Paris-Gen. 1980
Boron  Robert de	Roman de l'Estoire dou Graal
Eschenbach  Wolfram von	Parzifal                Vintage Books, 1961
Froissart  Jehan	Le Meliador
Gildas			De Excidio et Conquestu Brittaniae
Keating			History of Ireland
Malmesbury  Guillaume de	Gesta Regum Anglorum	
Malory  Thomas, Sir	Le Morte d'Arthur	Penguin Classics, 1969
Malory  Thomas, Sir	Tristem
Monmouth  Geoffrey de	Historia Regum Brittaniae  Griscom London, 1929
Monmouth  Geoffrey de	Vita Merlini		Ed. Faral
Nennius			Historia Brittonum	
Obay  Eilhart d'	Tristan
Troyes  Chretien de	Cliges ou la fausse morte   Folio
Troyes  Chretien de	Erec et Enide		    Folio
Troyes  Chretien de	Lancelot ou le Chevalier de la Charette
Troyes  Chretien de	Perceval ou le Roman du Graal  Gallimard, 1974
Troyes  Chretien de	Yvain ou le Chevalier au Lion
Wace			Le Roman de Brut	    I. Arnold ed. Paris, 1940
Wauchier		Continuation de Perceval

Notes: Most of the titles listed above are unfortunately unavailable except
Malory's and Chretien de Troyes novels.

			  The Fantastic Tradition

Barjavel  Rene		L'Enchanteur		Denoel, 1984
Berger  Thomas		Arthur Rex	
Bradley  Marion Zimmer	The Mists of Avalon	Alfred A. Knopf, 1982
Chapman  Vera		The King's Damosel
Chapman  Vera		The Green Knight
Chapman  Vera		King Arthur's Daughter
Christian  Catherine	The Pendragon
Godwin  Parke		Firelord		Bantam, 1982
Godwin  Parke		Beloved Exile
Karr  Phyllis Ann	The Idylls of the Queen	  Ace Books, 1982
Marshall  Edison	The Pagan King
Newman  Sharan		Guinevere		Futura, 1981
Newman  Sharan		The Chessboard Queen	Futura, 1983
Steinbeck  John		The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights	
						Ballantine Books, 1977
Stewart  Mary		The Crystal Cave	Ballantine Books, 1971
Stewart  Mary		The Hollow Hills	Ballantine Books, 1973
Stewart  Mary		The Last Enchantment	Ballantine Books, 1980
Stewart  Mary		The Wicked Day		Ballantine Books, 1984
Sutcliff  Rosemary	The Sword and the Circle   Knight Books, 1981
White  T.H.		The Once and Future King   Flamingo, 1958
White  T.H.		The Book of Merlyn	   Flamingo
Yolen  Jane		Merlin's Booke		   Ace Fantasy

Notes: Here are listed the novels which directly concern the Arthurian
legend. The Barjavel's Enchanter (l'Enchanteur, don't know if an english
version does exist) and Newman's Guinevere are my favourite. I also
recommend The Idylls of the Queen by P.A. Karr (sort of Arthurian detective
novel).  By the way, she has written a fantastic compilation about the
Arthurian myth which would deserve the admiration of at least any Arthurian
fans : this is called The King Arthur Companion and can be found in any -
good - games shop as a complement to the - excellent - roleplaying game
Pendragon.  I would really like to have the complete references that I
still lack (esp. for The Pagan King and Arthur Rex) ...

			    The Literary Escape

Cherryh  Carolyn J.	Port Eternity			Ace Books, 1978
Norton  Andre		Merlin's Mirror
Powers  Tim		The Drawing of the Dark
Twain  Mark		A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
Munn  H. Warner		Merlin'Godson			Ballantine
Munn  H. Warner		Merlin's Ring			Ballantine, 1974
Trystam  Florence	La Nuit du Motard		Hachette, 1986

Notes: These are the 'strange' novels dealing with the Arthurian legend, as
The Drawing of the Dark which plot takes place in Vienna in 1528. In the
same way, Port Eternity is a space-opera in which a woman is the only human
living among some - very sophisticated - androids programmed to behave as
Lancelot, Gauvain, Viviane and so on ... La Nuit du Motard (the night of
the motorcyclist) is a modern vision in which the Knights are young yobs on
motorbikes...  I really dislike H.W.Munn books. Avoid them, all the more
they have nothing to do with Arthur but the fact that the hero is Merlin's
son.

			    The poetic visions

Anonymous	Sir Gawaine and The Green Knight  Penguin Books, 1959
Anonymous	The Quest of the Holy Grail	Penguin Books, 1959
Dunn  J.	Tain Bo Cualnge			1914
Graves  Robert	The White Goddess		Noonday Press, 1977
Strassburg  Gottfried von	Tristan		Penguin Books, 1960
Tennyson   Alfred, Lord	Idylls of the King	Penguin Classics, 1983

Notes: the Idylls of the King are to me of really great value. Read it and
you'll love it too! [any other poetic entry would be appreciated]

				 * Music *

Chausson  Ernest	Le Roi Arthus
Purcell   Henry		King Arthur,  The Fairy Queen
Wakeman  Rick		The Myths and Legend of King Arthur and the 
				Knights of the Round Table

Notes: these are not exactly bibliography entries, but I find the
information relevant. Again I wish I had more ...

For any further information (asking or giving :-), feel free to contact me
directly by electronic mail.

Michel B. Pasquier
LIFIA. 46, avenue Felix Viallet. 38031 Grenoble.
France. Confederation Terrienne. Sol III (GC43M017)  
pasquier@lifia.imag.fr   
imag!lifia!pasquier    

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 04:28:13 GMT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Arthur and Cherryh

And don't forget Peter David's first novel from last year, _Knight Life_.
King Arthur runs for mayor of New York.  Not an immortal classic, but a lot
of fun.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 20:07:00 GMT
From: gwp@hcx3.ssd.harris.com
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations?

mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark Carroll) writes:
> Also, I wanted to throw in a good word for my favorite Arthurian novel,
> The Mists of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer-Bradley. Absolutely excellent. From
> the characters, to a very different interpretation of the legends,
> everything about this book was WONDERFUL. It is, without a doubt, one of
> the best books I've ever read. ( And the only MZB that I liked)

YES !  A fantastic (in every sense of the word) book !  The only criticism
I have against the book (if you can call it criticism) is that I became too
emotionally involved with it.  When Gwenyfar convinced Arthur to forsake
the Pendragon banner I was so mad/sad I didn't know what to do.  And those
narrow minded Christian priests !  (apologies to any followers of the
Christ) ARRGGGHHH !

All in all I thought the telling of the Arthurian legend from the point of
view of the women (Vivane, Igraine, Morgaine, Morguse, Gwenyfar, etc.) a
brilliant idea.  If you want a different slant on the legend you should
definitely read this book.

Delbert de la Platz
gwp@ssd.harris.com

------------------------------

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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #99
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 25 Mar 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:

		Books - Anthony (7 msgs) & Card (2 msgs) &
                        Cherryh (3 msgs) & Dick & 
                        Donaldson & Argos Fantasy & SF Magazine #1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 09:55:26 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Wolfe and plots (was Hack writers)

jvh@clinet.FI (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen) writes:
>Anyway, I think elitist sf like Neuromancer and The Book Of The New Sun
>which lack control, as to their readability, as first reads in the field
>of sf, will pass. But sawing the branch you're sitting on, if you start
>flaming the works, which, besides being well crafted, and thought
>inspiring, are also controlled, and accessible from the ground floor. You
>did make some rather sweeping accusations in the direction of Piers
>Anthony, how would you like to specify some of the ;-> broad spectrum ;->
>of his sins?

Are you, perhaps, of the opinion that plots should have no complexity; that
if they do, they are worthless?  That any time someone attempts to write a
story that isn't strictly linear, the writer has "lost control"?  The
plotting in The Book of the New Sun is masterful - Wolfe, in this series at
least, has shown that he is a master of control.  There is little, if
anything, in those books which does not belong there, and does not con-
tribute to the work as a whole.  Nothing is happening in there which is not
as Wolfe intended it.

If you'd like a broad spectrum antibiotic against Piers Anthony, it is
sufficient to state that none of his recent work that I have read (which
encompasses most, but not all, of his works up to Tales of a Space Tyrant)
has a particularly imaginative plot at all.  While the gimmicks and ideas
which go into his stories sometimes show imagination, the uses to which he
puts them are old hat, utterly predictable, and, frankly, boring as all
hell.  There has been no plot device in any Anthony book that I can
remember that I hadn't seen before, and generally seen in stories from the
1940's, if not earlier.  When you combine that with his other "sins", which
include cartoon-like characterization, obsolete and offensive portrayal of
sexual roles, an apparent fixation on certain sexual themes, abundant
self-contradictory statements within each story, and an incredible amount
of "deus-ex-machina" plot elements, you end up with a very good
justification of the statement "Piers Anthony is a hack writer".  Yes, he
can be understood at "ground level".  This is because he never is anything
else.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 14:33:06 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers

A4S@PSUVMB.BITNET writes:
>How about examples of other GOOD Anthony series: Tarot

Are you SERIOUS?  I didn't see any smileys, so you must be.  All I can say
is -- you like something about Anthony that I don't.  Don't get me wrong --
I liked the first half-dozen Xanth books, and I liked the Blue Adept
series.

But the TAROT books?  All he does is moan about how his soul is really made
of sh*t.  All the scatological imagery was revolting.  I wanted to write to
Anthony and tell him to try cheering himself up before sitting down to
write.  Pictures of crying clowns are cheerfuller than the TAROT stuff.
Blech.  (Ah, I can see the flames coming -- this is as fun as announcing
that I despise Thomas Covenant!)

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 10:13:03 GMT
From: cwp@otter.hple.hp.com (Chris Preist)
Subject: Anthony writes non-hack work, SHOCK HORROR PROBE!!!

While I agree with the general comments made by M. Farren above with
respect to Piers Anthony, I can recall reading rather a good book by him
about 5 years ago. It was called OMNIVORE, and dealt rather cleverly with
communication with a peculiar alien race, the Manta. What do any of you
'literary SF' fans who have read it think about it?

But then again, I was young and impressionable in those days...

Chris Preist

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 02:16:53 GMT
From: austin@sun.uucp (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Anthony writes non-hack work (Omnivore)

>It was called OMNIVORE [...]
>What do any of you fans who have read it think about it?

Omnivore was the first book of a trilogy (concluded by Orn and Ox). I
enjoyed it quite a bit. I enjoyed Orn even more.

I think Anthony's best work is Macroscope, a novel beat out by The Moon Is
A Harsh Mistress for a Hugo. It seemed very much like some of the early
Delany novels and short stories (Nova, The Star Pit, etc.).

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 03:18:58 GMT
From: davidbe@sco.com 
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony, Hack writers

soren@reed.UUCP said... 
>ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>Cluster
>>They weren't even as good as porn meant as porn. They certainly had no
>>intellectual, literary, artistic, escapist, entertaining, journalistic,
>>speculative, or any other type of value that a book or series might have
>>in various combinations.
>
>Apart from that, they were pretty damn good, though...
>
>I did stay up all night reading them as a Teeneger, so they obviously had
>something going for them.

You've got to watch out for writers like that.  They've got the ability to
keep you turning the page all while you're saying, "This is trash, this is
garbage, this book would be better off burned..."  Piers Anthony isn't that
good (or bad, as the case may be).  The writer who epitomizes this attitude
to me is L. Ron Hubbard.  I read _Battlefield Earth_ in one sitting...(I
think...it was a while ago).  I didn't pick up any of his decology, because
I was afraid I might get hooked.

Just because an author's style is good, doesn't mean that his writing is.
And the converse and inverse are also true (if I remember my logic terms
correctly :-).

David Bedno
610 Pacific Ave, #5
Santa Cruz,California 95060
Home:408-425-5266
Work:408-425-7222 x697
davidbe@sco.COM
...!{uunet,ihnp4,decvax!microsoft,ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!davidbe

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 19:00:52 GMT
From: bush@uvm-gen.uucp
Subject: Anthony

     Have any of you Anthony flamers out there read TRIPLE DETENTE.  It was
originally published by DAW in 1974 and is an excellent example of Anthony
at his best.  The idea is not drawn out ( like the Cluster series ), has a
fast pace, and a plausible plot.  In my opionion, it is probably his best
novel to date.  I heartily recommend it. (It might even change a few
peoples opinions about Anthony.)

Scott Bush
19 Turf Rd
Burlington VT 05401
Path: {linus,ihnp4,decvax}!dartvax!uvm-gen!bush
BitNet: bush@uvmvm
UUCP: bush@uvm-gen.uucp
CSNET : bush@gen.uvm.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 16:56:04 GMT
From: eh6o@clutx.clarkson.edu (Steven Stadnicki)
Subject: Macroscope

austin@sun.uucp (Austin Yeats):
>I think Anthony's best work is Macroscope, a novel beat out by The Moon Is
>A Harsh Mistress for a Hugo. It seemed very much like some of the early
>Delany novels and short stories (Nova, The Star Pit, etc.).

Definitely!  Macroscope is far and away one of my all-time favorites (Right
up there with Expanded Universe, an old Sturgeon collection which I believe
was called E Pluribus Unicorn or some such nonsense {but was actually
excellent} and others which I won't get into for fear of some S*E*R*I*O*U*S
flaming. :-) ).  Probably the best thing about the novel was that it was
primarily characterization, so Anthony sweeps the reader through it.  (Huh?
Sounded good when I wrote it.)

Steve Stadnicki
eh6o@clutx.clarkson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 09:42:51 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Card's _Seventh_Son_

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
[ on Scott Card's "Tales of Alvin Maker" ]
>   It's pretty good, but be warned: it is also the first of an arbitrarily
>long series "The Tales of Alvin the Maker."  The second book of the
>series, "Red Prophet" is also out, but I haven't read that one so I can't
>say anything about it.

It's not *arbitrarily* long - it will be either five or six volumes.  The
third volume is being written now.  I hope that Card doesn't take too awful
long about writing this - I think that "Seventh Son" is one of the better
pieces of fantasy I've come across this year.  Card has settled on a very
nice background - an alternate Colonial America - and written a good story.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 21:26:40 GMT
From: matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Not the kind you have to wind up on Sunday)
Subject: Re: Card's _Seventh_Son_

Stephen R. Balzac:
>   It's pretty good, but be warned: it is also the first of an arbitrarily
>long series "The Tales of Alvin the Maker."  The second book of the
>series, "Red Prophet" is also out, but I haven't read that

Michael J. Farren:
) It's not *arbitrarily* long - it will be either five or six volumes.

I have read the first two, _Seventh_Son_ and _The_Red_Prophet_.  In my
opinion enough of the questions and plot elements are resolved so that
nobody needs to be deterred by fear of an "infinite series".  There's no
confrontation yet between the "Maker" and the "Unmaker", but everything
else gets squared away.

(I was mad as hell when I reached the last page of Cherryh's
_Chanur's_Venture!)

Matt Crawford
University of Chicago
{astrovax,ihnp4}!oddjob!matt
matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 10:01:11 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

hester@ics.uci.edu writes:
>I disliked most of the Cherryh I've read, but I think I know what people
>like about her work: she does a fair job of presenting complete alien
>cultures, and how THEY view HUMANS (and the other way, of course).
>Naturally, like most alien cultures, Cherryh's are usually just an extreme
>case of cultures from Earth history (or non-human Earth animals).

Cherryh deliberately chooses to write about aliens who are close to human
in outlook, and that is as well, as the stories she prefers to write would
not be as readable (if at all) if the problems inherent in presenting a
truly alien outlook were predominant.  The story would become one of an
alien's viewpoint, rather than one of social interaction and events.  She
has included in many of her stories truly alien aliens, but they are
background, rather than foreground.  Even so, her foreground aliens, such
as the Hani, are extremely well-crafted, and generally considerably more
than mere clones of human culture.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 22:02:33 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Cherry's aliens

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>Cherryh deliberately chooses to write about aliens who are close to human
>in outlook, and that is as well, as the stories she prefers to write would
>not be as readable (if at all) if the problems inherent in presenting a
>truly alien outlook were predominant.

Right.  Can you imagine a book written from the T'ca viewpoint?

  Cherryh   Cherryh   Cherryh  Cherryh  Cherryh  Cherryh   Cherryh
  book      book      book     reader   reader   reader    books
  difficult confusing opaque   confused baffled  disgusted unsold

It was kind of fun to puzzle out a few of those T'ca matrices, but I'd
give up real quick if the bulk of the book read like that.

I've noticed that Cherryh's books do tend to be somewhat difficult reading.
I'm not sure quite what this is; something about the style, maybe?  But
they sure are fascinating! 

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 11:21:50 GMT
From: gareth@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>Cherryh deliberately chooses to write about aliens who are close to human
>in outlook, and that is as well, as the stories she prefers to write would
>not be as readable (if at all) if the problems inherent in presenting a
>truly alien outlook were predominant.  The story would become one of an
>alien's viewpoint, rather than one of social interaction and events.  She
>has included in many of her stories truly alien aliens, but they are
>background, rather than foreground.  Even so, her foreground aliens, such
>as the Hani, are extremely well-crafted, and generally considerably more
>than mere clones of human culture.

I agree that Cherryh's aliens are superior to the general run of aliens.
However I would say that she has included some very tough fore-ground
aliens in her writing, whose behaviour is pretty far from human.

Mostly I mean the ship/being in *Voyager_In_Night*, this tends to be the
book I give to people who want a challenge, its also likely to be the first
sf&f book to make it onto the 1st year Eng Lit course here. I had real
problems for a long time with this book, maybe I'm slow but I was half way
through before I got a glimmer of the solution/answer.  I mean what would
you do with characters called <^> (()) <.> <> &c.

Certainly I appreciate the way that all of her aliens tend to take a skew
approach to what we would consider normal behaviour. One moment you're up
to your neck in trouble and suddenly they back off, then when you think
you've got everything sussed you're back in trouble.  In the case of the
Hani there's the fun of interpreting aliens actions from an alien
viewpoint.

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth
DARPA: gareth%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 21:07:43 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: P.K. Dick play opens in Chicago

I saw the play as performed by the Mabou mines about 2 years ago in NYC.  I
enjoyed it a great deal, and heartily recommend it as proof that good sf
>can< be brought to the stage.

I did have some nits to pick, though.  Believe it or not, I thought the
script was almost too faithful to the PKD novel insofar that things we may
read between the lines of a narrative were left unsaid, thereby making
aspects of the show incomprehensible to those unfamilliar with the book.  I
polled the audience at two performances, and discovered that all who had
read the book perfectly understood the play's intent and resolution, while
those who hadn't, did not.  Nevertheless, I found the production inspired.

At the time, I was warned that the playwrights (a husband & wife team, as I
recall, and friends of PKD) were considering revisions to the script, and
may have dealt with the problem.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 09:24:25 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: A Man Rides Through (* SPOILERS! *)

OK...
	
Donaldson blew it (opinion). After an intriguing build-up in The Mirror of
Her Dreams, A Man Rides Through deteriorated into yet another Hero(ine)
finds unsuspected powers, big fight at the end, decrepit leader recovers
himself story. Another LOTR rip-off in fact.

But, worst of all was the ending!

Firstly, leaving Eremis in his inextricable (Hah!) situation.

PATHETIC!!!

I can just see it now, in Mordant's Need II - 

   "Well, of course, after the mirror broke (I had a snooze (I had a good
   think (Choose your excuse))) the spell broke and with a bound I was
   free! And now I will take an awesome revenge...."

Secondly, the final chapter was like the worst of Charles Dickens.  If
Donaldson had told us what happened to the Orison cat, I'd not have been
surprised.

Donaldson *has* improved. But not by as much as I had begun to hope.

Peter Kendell
pete@tcom.stc.co.uk
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 22:02:43 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Argos Fantasy & SF Magazine #1

I just ran into the first issue of a new SF magazine called "Argos". The
subtitle is "Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine". It's published by Penrhyn
publishing of Renton, Wa.

I haven't read it yet, but it's got some pretty heavy hitters in the first
issue. Mike Resnick, Larry Niven (the only one that seems to be a pre-print
of a story sold elsewhere), Ru Emerson, Janet Morris. It's 94 pages, it's
in theory quarterly.  (address: Penhryn Publishing, Box 2109, Renton, WA
98056). It seems to be affiliated with Heritage Bookshop in Renton.

Anyone got any info on this thing? It looks interesting, at least as an
initial glance....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 25 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Some Corrections & Title Answer &
                         New Magazine & Cyberpunk & 
                         Civil War SF (5 msgs) & 
                         Arthurian Stories (4 msgs) &
                         Title Requests (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 03:38:23 GMT
From: KFL@ai.ai.mit.edu ("Keith F. Lynch")
Subject: Re: Micro Reviews

srt@cs.ucla.edu writes:
> THE BREADS OF MAN - F.M. Busby (Bantam)

The BREEDS of Man.

> THE FOREVER WAR - Gordon R. Dickson (Ace)

The Forever MAN.  The Forever WAR was by Joe Haldeman.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 03:26:03 GMT
From: swg@ncs-med.uucp (Stephen Glennon)
Subject: short story identity

I have seen no answer to an earlier story title question so here's mine.
(Mr. Boyajian {Hi Jerry :-)} shouldn't have to do all the work)

I don't have the original posting so I will do my own synopsis.  {I hope
that the original poster can still recognize the story. :-)}

PLOT SYNOPSIS: Two engineers/inventors from Earth arrive on another planet
to be faced with three tests of their inventiveness.  They are to duplicate
artifacts of alien manufacture.  At the same time a team of three aliens
are undergoing a similar test on Earth.  The three items provided by the
aliens were a facial depilatory, a "mouse" trap, and a perpetual motion
machine.  Being Earthmen they pass the test after only a few weeks of
intensive effort and then find it necessary to help their alien
counterparts in order to get back home.

RELEVANT DATA:   Title: "Double Dare"	 Author: Robert Silverberg
   Available in the following collections:

   The Cube Root of Uncertainty  (Silverberg)
   To Worlds Beyond (ed. Silverberg)
   The Fifth Galaxy Reader (ed. H. L. Gold)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 22:07:12 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.uucp (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: New Magazine

For what it may accomplish, Marion Zimmer Bradley is starting a magazine
("MZBs Fantasy Forum").  She intends to publish short SF and Fantasy works.
(Mostly fantasy, I think, as she says she "doesn't like spaceships.")
Initialy it appears to be a quarterly, with the first issue due out in
early June '88.  The first issue is supposed to have a story by Poul
Anderson.

If there's much interest, (or even if there isn't :-)) I can post the
relevant subscription information.  I may have (or can get) submission
criteria as well.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{dual,qantel,ihnp4}ptsfa!pbhya!whh

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 16:06:33 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: More cyberpunk references

I think there are two more you could add, although both are rather light-
hearted in their portrayals of cyber-punkish worlds (cyberpuncomedy?).

   "Spaceache" by Snoo Wilson
   "Terra" by (if memory serves, it's something like) A. Benoni (?)

Also, "Metrophage" by Richard Kadrey is definitely Cyberpunk (even if it is
a little too much like William Gibson meets Big Brother).

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 22:54:26 GMT
From: CS.RWILLIAMS@r20.utexas.edu (Russ Williams)
Subject: Civil War SF

Stricken by a strange obsession, I am looking for Civil War SF stories (or
horror stories).  Anything even remotely sf could be of interest (e.g. some
of Mark Twain and Abrose Bierce's stuff) so I would appreciate any and all
suggestions and ideas.

Also, there was an old Twilight Zone episode about the Civil War, where
soldiers found an old black tome with a useful spell that froze enemy
soldiers, if I recall correctly.  Anyone know more about this?

Thanks,
Russ

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 16:42:20 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.uucp (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Civil War SF

Stories from the Wah b'tween th'States (Watch what y'all call it, son.
"Civil Wah" is not only a contry-diction in tuhms, it's a damYankee wuhd)?
Yessuh, thay's a lot of 'em out thay.

Th'best o'th'lot, t'mah mahnd, 'ud have t'be LINCOLN'S DREAMS, bah a fahn
young lady wrahtuh name o'Connie Willis.  Even if th'tahtle's a bit
misleadin', th' book deals with th'greatest hee-ro o'the Wah in fahn,
sympathetic tuhms -- not at all th'soht o'thang y'all 'spect t'see in these
benahted tahms.

Then thay's a story -- can't recall tahtle *oah* authah, but it appeahs in
Mr. Boucher's TREASURY OF GREAT SCIENCE FICTION -- abaht a strange altahnit
wuhld whey Colonel Booth (he's an hon'rary Colonel, y'know) failed in his
sacred mission and that damn Lincoln lived.  (Th'same anthology has a story
called "Stella," which demonstrates that slavery may not have been all bad.
Th'problem was with the racist kahnd o'slavery we had.)

O'coase, thay's BRING THE JUBILEE, which is all abaht a wuhld whey th'
Confederacy won thay rahtful place in th'brothahhood o'nations.

Ah hope this is some use to y'all...

Sinceahly,

Dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 14:56:27 GMT
From: carols@drilex.uucp (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Civil War SF

djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>Then thay's a story -- can't recall tahtle *oah* authah, but it appeahs in
>Mr. Boucher's TREASURY OF GREAT SCIENCE FICTION -- abaht a strange
>altahnit wuhld whey Colonel Booth (he's an hon'rary Colonel, y'know)
>failed in his sacred mission and that damn Lincoln lived.  (Th'same
>anthology has a story called "Stella," which demonstrates that slavery may
>not have been all bad.
>
>Th'problem was with the racist kahnd o'slavery we had.)

I hope Dan'l is kidding about his interpretation of this story.  The
context leads me to think he is, but I feel this compulsion to warn people
that "Stella" is a story to be read on many levels.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill  
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173      
{mit-eddie,rutgers!ll-xn,ames!ll-xn,harvard,linus!axiom}!drilex!carols  

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 19:04:16 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Civil War SF

carols@drilex.UUCP (Carol Springs) writes:
>djo@pbhyc.UUCP writes:
>>(Th'same anthology has a story called "Stella," which demonstrates that
>>slavery may not have been all bad.
>
>>Th'problem was with the racist kahnd o'slavery we had.)
>
>I hope Dan'l is kidding about his interpretation of this story.

Well, yes, I was.  It's certainly *a* possible interpretation of the story,
but pretty much the most obtuse interpretation I can imagine.  The Colonel
Cockroach personality has resubmerged and will probably remain so for a
*long* time.

The "Lincoln Lived" story, by the way, is called "The Lost Years," by Oscar
Lewis.  And BRING THE JUBILEE is by Ward Moore.

Thanks, Carol, for giving me the excuse to post the corrected
information...

Dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 05:17:00 GMT
From: wombat@ccvaxa.uucp
Subject: Re: Civil War SF

Civil War SF, eh?  Then you'll want to read Ward Moore's excellent *Bring
the Jubilee*.  This is a really, really good book.

You might also be interested in *Joyleg* by Moore and Avram Davidson, but
it's fringe: a Revolutionary War vet is still alive in the 1950's or so and
talks about his life.

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat
wombat@xenurus.Gould.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 17:42:15 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations

There has been a large number of recommendations on this subject.  I have a
few more to add that I've not seen in anyone's list:

CHILD OF THE NORTHERN SPRING by Persia Woolley
This is the story of Gwen's childhood/young adulthood, up to the point of
marrying Arthur.  Quite different than the usual stuff.

THE BOOK OF MORDRED by Peter Hanratty
This is the early life of Arthur's son.  It too paints quite a different
picture of this legend.

THE LAST KNIGHT OF ALBION by Peter Hanratty
Somewhat of a sequel to the above book, but not entirely. That is, this
takes place 20 years after Arthur's death.  Percevale, now an old man (but
still a knight) is wandering about trying to find Mordred and exact his
vengence.  The book really centers on the truth he discovers about the
world while questing after something else (Mordred).

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 14:09:40 GMT
From: VM5F97@wvnvm.bitnet ("Jeff Brooks")
Subject: Arthurian Poetry

Anyone interested in poetic visions of the Arthurian tales should find a
copy ofCharles Williams' Taliesin Through Logres and The Region of the
Summer Stars.  CW (one of the Inklings, with C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien)
was fascinated by the Matter of Britain and the Grail; the poems concern
the travels of Taliesin, Arthur's court poet, and others in a mostly
allegorical Britain and Byzantium.  There is a great deal of Christian
symbolism, much of it very obscure but pleasant.  The two poetry
collections area available from William Eerdmans Co.  (sp.?), in a single
volume, along with essays by Williams and Lewis on the figure of Arthur and
the history of the Grail.  The poetry is, in my humble opinion, quite good,
and the essays are well-researched.

Readers of C.S. Lewis might be interested to note that the quote in That
Hideous Strength from "Taliesin Through Logres" ("All lies in a passion of
patience, my Lord's rule") was actually taken by Lewis from Williams' work;
in the novel, however, the author of the quote was not named...

Enjoy!

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 16:51:46 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Arthurian recommendations

Yesterday I posted some additions to the list of fictional works with
Arthur or his companions as subject matter.  Last night I was scanning my
library and found no others but the dozen or so already listed.  However, I
did locate a fair number of historical works.  Two have Arthur as their
main subject.  They are:

The Discovery of King Arthur by Geoffrey Ashe
The Mystery of King Arthur by Elizabeth Jenkins

Another half dozen historical works that have a chapter, a page, or several
mentions of Arthur are:

The High Kings by Joy Chant
Celtic Warriors by Tim Newark
The Celts by Gerhard Herm
Life in a Medieval Castle by Joseph and Frances Gies
Castles by Alan Lee
The Castle Story by Sheila Sancha

Hope your pursuit is a fruitful and enjoyable one.

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 88 14:30:51 GMT
From: murphyp@cs.glasgow.ac.uk
Subject: Arthurian legends, and their adaptation.

   In a recent article, the discussion of recommended Arthurian texts
turned to a general session of mis-information.  Hopefully, I can add my
bit to correct the mistakes already made.....

   1) King Arthur, if he existed (he was more likely to have been a 
      warlord, rather than a High King of Britain as some people paint
      him), was around in the 6-7th Century.  He fought the Saxons on their
      invasions.  They succeeded when he died.  They landed in force on the
      south coast of England (even today called the Saxon Shore) late in
      the 6th Century.

   2) Malory took the existing stories, probably passed around by bards,
      and adapted by Christian monks to fit in with their religion, and
      changed their setting to make them of more interest to his audience.
      Therefore they became set in the middle-ages, with noble knights,
      esquires, plate armour, warhorses, chivalry, etc. etc.

   3) In "Excalibur", John Boorman used the works of Malory almost exactly
      as they were written.  Obviously some parts were added to explain to
      modern audiences what people in Malory's time knew as common
      knowledge.  However, there is one major difference which is
      introduced...  Merlin.  In Malory, he is a magician, famed for his
      powers. At that time, magicians were all the rage.  The King of
      England at that time had one at his court, and so did many of the
      "civilised" and "noble" Kings of Europe.  In the film, one passage
      stands out: when Arthur draws the sword from the stone, he is told
      that Merlin brought him to be fostered and that only Merlin can tell
      him who his parents were.  Arthur asks "Who is Merlin?".  As Merlin
      approaches at this point, he answers "I am the Merlin".  Note: THE
      Merlin, not just "Merlin".  A slip of the tongue?  A figure of
      speech?  It doesn't make any sense, right?  WRONG!  The Merlin was
      the leader of the Druids, who were still active at the end of the 6th
      Century.  This view is also taken by Marion Zimmer Bradley in her
      book "The Mists of Avalon", which I highly recommend.

   4) The armour of the period, from archeaological evidence, consisted
      mainly of leather, mostly padded, sometimes with metal plates or
      rings as re-inforcement.  Plate mail, or plate armour, was not
      invented until the 14-15th Century.  Scale mail was 200 years later.
      Chainmail was 300 years later.  The best armour they had was a kind
      of ringmail, consisting of a leather jack with rings sewn on to it.
      For Kings or great leaders only, the rings would be roughly
      interwoven, and without a supporting jack - like chainmail, but very
      much more primitive.

   5) Cavalry - at the time of Arthur (see above), NO-ONE used cavalry in
      any great numbers.  However, their use was known - the Romans had
      cavalry, but in very small numbers (~10 per 1000 footmen).  If Arthur
      used cavalry at all, they would be normal riding horses, but with a
      little more training.  If the horses were armoured at all, they would
      have leather coverings, and perhaps a metal plate over their
      forequarters to deflect spears. Their tactics would be elementary at
      best - simple wedge formations sweeping through the enemy by force of
      weight alone.

   6) Chivalry, Knightly values, etc.  - this is the biggest piece of 
      rubbish ever perpetrated about the time.  From what we know, the time
      of Arthur was Romano-British.  Some Celtic values, but mainly the
      ideas of the Romans - kill or be killed.  Spare no-one, so that all
      resistance is crushed.  Thus, there was no chivalry.  The only thing
      knightly about the leaders at the time was their sex life
      [groan....:-) ].
	
   It should always be remembered that legends are exactly that.  Truth is
hard to find, archeaology supplies more mysteries than solutions, and
popular stories are written by the victors.

   Please e-mail any replies.

Paul Murphy
17 Lilybank Gardens
GB-GLASGOW G12 8QQ 
ARPANet: murphyp@cs.glasgow.ac.uk
JANET:   murphyp@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
UseNet:  mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!murphyp            

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 18:17:00 GMT
From: hammer@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Looking for a Short Story

I have a dim memory of a short story I read long ago and would like to find
again.  What I remember about the plot:

   At least two guys are planet hopping.

   Everywhere they go, the natives couldn't care less about them
   because of a great occurrence has just transpired on their
   planet -- the Son of God has just been there.

   As I recall the ending, one guy stays on the last planet (the
   one where they finally find out what is going on) while the
   goes off trying to catch Christ.

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated (E-mail preferred).  If this is an
inappropriate posting for this group, please excuse my ignorance.

David Hammerslag
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
hammer@a.cs.uiuc.edu (ARPA)/(CSNET)
{pur-ee, ihnp4}!uiucdcs!hammer (USENET)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 17:39:38 GMT
From: kd@sfmag.uucp (K.Delbarre)
Subject: serendipity, inc?

I'm trying to track down a story I read many years ago.  Unfortunately, my
memories of it are very vague, and I may be mixing together pieces of
different books/stories, but here are the elements that I remember:

   a company named "Serendipity, Inc."

   the company motto, "We Also Walk Dogs"

   company performs any and all types of service

   in order to service one contract, they invent anti-gravity

   for another, they invent matter duplication, and use it to copy an
   exquisitely beautiful bowl for an art collector; their payment: to be
   allowed to see the bowl from time to time

As I say, I may be combining elements from different stories, but the story
in which "Serendipity, Inc." figures is the one of interest.

I think this was a short story or novella, rather than a novel.  Does
anyone know the author, the title, or the name of an anthology in which it
appeared?  Please send email if possible.  Thanks!

Kelvin Delbarre
AT&T
190 River Road
Summit, N.J.
attunix!kd

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 25 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:

		       Television - Probe (8 msgs) &
                                    Highwayman (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 19:38:20 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) writes:
> It seem like there has been nothing on that is good SF in a long time
> (except for ST:TNG).  However PROBE may be another SF show to fill the
> void.

Well... I wouldn't exactly call it SF.  I was going to complain somewhat
about this show to rec.arts.tv (but not sf-lovers) because of my annoyance
with it, but I don't regularly subscribe to r.a.t so I abstained.  But
somebody else mentioning it in sf-lovers is more than I can bear, so...

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
> But, I could have even put up with the hackneyed plot -- if it wasn't for
> UTTER STUPIDITY.

Eric has captured my feelings in a nutshell.  But I have a bit to add to
that.  

*SPOILER WARNING*

The start of the show, before the main plot was discovered, and before the
freezing subplot was resolved, were very, *very* promising, I thought.  For
example, I was watching, following along, they got to the "plant lie
detector".  I groaned.  I muttered.  I was disGUStipated.  Then the sly
fellow showed us the control in his hand, let on that the plants were just
plants, and he was just reading her body language.  "Well, we can now be
sure you don't know much about science," Parker mutters.  With this, he won
me over.  My expectations raised quite a bit.

Then he discovers the shard of shattered rosebud in the freezing case.
Horray!  I thought.  Interesting puzzles!  Nice little snippets of
counterintuitive science!  Great!

But then they spend the rest of the show totally demolishing any and all
expectation I had put above ground level, with a barrage of absolute drek.
A computer able to magically "control" any and every appliance, just
because this computer does the accounting for the companies that provide
the utility service to those appliances... yeah, right.  And somebody
manufacturing enough liquid nitrogen to freeze a human body (along with
most of a room), just because he has a "chemistry set".  Yeah, right.
Making out that it would be hard to transport liquid nitrogen, with the
constant question of how did the criminal get the LN to the scene of the
crime.  Why not the same way my highschool physics teacher got it to the
lab for experiments?  In a standard styrofoam picnic box (or several)?
This is hard?

To paraphrase the hero:

   Well, we can be sure the writers don't know much about science.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 00:29:19 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

>Last night (3-7-88) I decided to watch the movie introduction to the new
>series "Probe".

I watched it also mainly on the strength of "created by Isaac Asimov".
This show can best be described as Very Stupid and Very Childish.  Only BS
Galactica has stupidier non-science but not by much.  The plot is a series
of chases and explosions linked together by some abysmal excuse for a
story. The story elements contributed by Asimov is fairly obvious and also
fairly minimal. I suspect he was paid a fair sum of money for a one page
treatment and the network hacks took it from there.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 22:54:27 GMT
From: john@hpsrla.hp.com (John McLaughlin)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

 WARNING: SEVERAL SPOILERS WILL FOLLOW

I too watched Probe on tv Monday night, I did not enjoy it as much, in fact
you might say I hated it, in fact I did hate it.

Issac, Issac how could you do this to us?  I mean by the content of your
most recent novels I knew that you were beginning to lose it and all but
how could you let your name be attached to this poor excuse for bad
entertainment.  The only thing worse than Probe was Supercarrier (which
aired the night before).  My roomate and I have a theory that the guy who
produced this show had some dirt on Issac and made him let them use his
name, that is the only excuse that we could think of.... OK OK I will stop
ranting and explain why I hated it so much.

1) Plot
   The plot was the old tired out "computer gains intelligence, takes over
city, and starts killing people" The story is based in the present guys,
what city would let a new, experimental, computer take over all of the
functions??  water, power, street lights?????  I think it is fairly evident
that the future is lots of computers linked together via lan rather than
one big central computer.

   In fact the entire series is going to go this way, "mad genius saves
city and gets girl" sort of plot.

2) Characters
   First there is the mad genius, very predictable, knows lots of obscure
facts.  has some strange habits.  Does not know how to deal with the girl
he likes deep down inside. sigh......

   Then there is the girl, spunky, brave, in love with mad genius, scared
of spiders, rats etc.... very predictable...

Frankly I don't see how these characters will ever be able to grow, expand,
or do anything unpredictable......

3) Science & logic

This one is the biggie

   There is little excuse for things that mistakes in logic, there is NO
excuse for mistakes in facts..... This one has them all...

   For instance, when Austin was talking about why the dead women was "4
degrees below ambient" he concluded that she must have been frozen in
liquid nitrogen at "300 C below zero".  I guess there have been some real
advances in getting nitrogen 27 C below absolute zero....

   Also when the coroner took the temperature of the corpse, Since when do
doctors carry thermometers that can measure down below 0C?  and why would
he carry 4 of them?

   Why would a research computer the magnitude of Crossover control
billing of the water co?

   How would Crossover know where to find Austin to call him up?  Why would
Crossover talk in morse code?  Ascii bits would make much more sense...

ARGHH I can't go on... it was too horrible....

Overall on a McLaughlin scale of -5 to 5 this was a -4.9

John McLaughlin
Hewlett Packard
Network Measurements Division
Santa Rosa, CA

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 06:35:07 GMT
From: mikevp@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

I just watched this show, and it does have promise.  It is interesting,
funny, and exciting.  Just don't expect to do any sanity checks on what's
going on -- the writers are as schizo as the hero, Austin James.

(Just what mechanism could a computer use to blow up telephones?  Even if
it did control the phone company?  Shades of "Scanners"!)

Mike Van Pelt
..uunet!ubvax!unisv!mikevp

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 04:53:50 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sco!davidbe@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

I too watched Probe.  I liked it.  Sure, the computer stuff was stupid.
Sure the science was out of whack.  Sure, when you look at it logically it
made no sense.  SO WHAT?

I liked the characters.  The plot, if not good, was at least reasonably
consistent.  And when the main character told the computer "Ok, now sing
Daisy", I cracked up.  And it also showed that artificial intelligence
implies artificial stupidity (stolen from a short that appeared in Analog).

AND...it was a mystery that didn't reveal the villain until later in the
show.

It was bad science fiction, but it was good tv (as tv nowadays goes).  On
the Mad Armenian's scale of A-F plus Z, I'd give it a C.  Solid
entertainment, but nothing to get too excited over (unless everyone jerks
their knees at it).

Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of a tv
audience.

David Bedno
610 Pacific Ave #5
Santa Cruz, California 95060
Home: 408-425-5266
Work:408-425-7222 x697
davidbe@sco.COM
...!{uunet,ihnp4,decvax!microsoft,ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!davidbe

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 88 17:15:44 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

There's been a barrage of articles saying how bad "Probe" is.  Well, I have
to admit -- they're absolutely right.  This show is chewing gum for the
brain, without even a passing acquaintance with scientific plausibility.

Still, I find it fun to watch.  At least the first two episodes.  But I
suspect this show is somthing that I will get very tired of very quickly,
unless Dr. A puts his foot down and convinces them to run the scripts past
someone who got at least a C in third-grade science.

Mike Van Pelt
..uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 06:09:04 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Probe- some thoughts

tainter@ihlpg.ATT.COM (Tainter) writes:
>It is interesting to note Isaac Asimov (and someone else) is credited for
>the shows concept creation.

It's even more interesting in light of the computer's actions.  I never
thought I'd see the day!

Karen Black

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 23:17:50 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Probe- some thoughts

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) says:
>> Last night (3-7-88) I decided to watch the movie introduction to the new
>> series "Probe".  I saw a few ads for it before, but thought I didn't
>OK. My opinion: The acting was pretty mediocre. The dialog -- where DID
>they get the dialog? Out of a box of Fruit Loops?  The writer did his best
>to do the kind of sizzling dialog that made Moonlighting such a hit, but
>mostly missed the target wide.  And the plotting... give me a break!
>Quick -- genius foils plan by super-intelligent computer to take over the
>world. Sound familiar? GARGH! HAL, where are you when we need you! But, I
>could have even

Etc.

I taped it and watched the tape when I had a few hours free.  A smart
choice; I only made it halfway through the tape before giving up and wiping
it.  Aside from the flaws mentioned above, it somehow had the feel of a
Hollywood ripoff of DOCTOR WHO gone rancid in the usual way (remember Max
Headroom?).

Nano-review:  YECCH!

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!hnsurg3,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 88 16:12:54 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Highwayman

Highwayman is on the traditional sci-fi slot that networks assign: Fridays
at 8:00 PM (EST).  (Twilight Zone, Star Trek, Max Headroom, Otherworld and
V come to mind as having that same slot.  It's shown on NBC.

In brief, this show sucks.

Premise: The Road Warrior goes Hi-Tech and meets up with the US Army.
Costumes and hair styles are a direct steal.  Some cyberpunk-like plot
elements are poorly integrated.

Acting: Wooden.  The star is Sam Jones, whose height of acting ability was
demonstrated in the title role of Flash Gordon, and in 10 (in which he was
well cast as Bo Derek's plasticized husband.)  His sidekick is a
cartoon-like Aussie named Jocko (of Eveready Batteries fame) who does
little more than mug and grunt.

Dialogue: "...we are searching the universe systematically--and not just at
random, either!"  'Nuff said.

Special FX:  OK.  But who cares? 

This show isn't good enough to enjoy, and has enough production value to
avoid being campy, so even that rationale for checking it out is gone.
Don't bother.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 17:39:58 GMT
From: edward@engr.uky.edu (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Re: Highwayman

jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>In brief, this show sucks.

No arguement there.

>Premise: The Road Warrior goes Hi-Tech and meets up with the US Army.
>Costumes and hair styles are a direct steal.  Some cyberpunk-like plot
>elements are poorly integrated.

What premise? There is none. We were never given a reason for these guys to
exist. They (Highway and Jetto) are such good copies of the Road Warrior
that they can't function believably outside a post- apocalyptic,
crime-ridden, highway-oriented society. Yet their surroundings are the
1980's! Who invented this thing? (It's produced/created by Glen Larson of
"Battlestar Gallactica fame. That should tell you something.)

>Acting: Wooden.  The star is Sam Jones, whose height of acting ability was
>demonstrated in the title role of Flash Gordon, and in 10 (in which he was
>well cast as Bo Derek's plasticized husband.)  His sidekick is a
>cartoon-like Aussie named Jocko (of Eveready Batteries fame) who does
>little more than mug and grunt.

In the interest of correct information, the character Jetto is played by
the actor Jacko. Creativity at work.

You have to see Jones to appreciate how bad of an actor he is. This guy
would get upstaged by a brick.

>Special FX:  OK.  But who cares? 

Oh, I dunno. The truck/helicopter was kind of neat.

>This show isn't good enough to enjoy, and has enough production value to
>avoid being campy, so even that rationale for checking it out is gone.
>Don't bother.

Agreed. This show is in that grey area between bad and campy. It's trying
to be serious so you can't call it camp. And it's just too stupid to even
call it bad.

Perhaps if the producers would watch some old Batman episodes they'd learn
something.

Edward C. Bennett
DOMAIN: edward@engr.uky.edu
UUCP: {cbosgd|uunet}!ukma!ukecc!edward
BITNET: edward%ukecc.uucp@ukma

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 03:57:03 GMT
From: bucknam@tramp.colorado.edu (BUCKNAM BRIAN ROBERT)
Subject: Re: Highwayman

edward@engr.uky.edu (Edward C. Bennett) writes:
>jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>>In brief, this show sucks.
>
>No arguement there.
>
>  ... more about the bad acting, predictable plot, etc.

Sure, but Jetto (Jacko) is soooo annoying as a person that I find the show
(at least/especially his appearances) quite comic.  I would just as soon
watch Highwayman for Jetto's indescribably annoying personality as most of
the weak sit-coms currently available.

I find some of the technology presented in the show quite interesting, it
seems to be set in "about five years" time, when stuff that is only
possible today has been miniaturized and produced for the use of dudes in
leather suits.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 21:37:27 GMT
From: russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: Re: Highwayman

edward@engr.uky.edu (Edward C. Bennett) writes:
>jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>>In brief, this show sucks.
>No arguement there.

Sucks is maybe too strong; it just ain't good.

>>Special FX:  OK.  But who cares? 
>Oh, I dunno. The truck/helicopter was kind of neat.

Could be done better though.  And I saw it coming the moment I saw the
truck.  I can't figure out if Jetto's truck has a similar feature--there is
that weird bubble on the trailer though...

It is set badly, I admit.  You've got these futuristic trucks driven by
super cop types to fight this rampant crime we never really see, but yet
the cars on the roads are Ford Tauruses, etc.  There should at least be a
couple cars that don't really exist to make it seem a little farther into
the future.

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St
Omro WI 54963
russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 23:22:10 GMT
From: zardoz@apple.com (Phil Wayne)
Subject: Re: Highwayman

edward@engr.uky.edu (Edward C. Bennett) writes:
>jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>>Premise: The Road Warrior goes Hi-Tech and meets up with the US Army.
>>Costumes and hair styles are a direct steal.  Some cyberpunk-like plot
>>elements are poorly integrated.
>
>What premise? There is none. We were never given a reason for these guys
>to exist. They (Highway and Jetto) are such good copies of the Road
>Warrior that they can't function believably outside a post- apocalyptic,
>crime-ridden, highway-oriented society. Yet their surroundings are the
>1980's! Who invented this thing? (It's produced/created by Glen Larson of
>"Battlestar Gallactica fame. That should tell you something.)

You just don't understand. When they wanted to kill of Star Trek, guess who
they gave it to! The old show killer himself. (Yes, I have actually heard
Mr. Larson referred to that way by more than one of the H*wood crowd). When
they wanted to be sure BG was dead in the stalls, who did they give it to?
When they wanted to be sure Highwayman was DIW, who did they give it to?

Now who says there is no premise? If you are really blind,
Premise:
   There must never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be any decent
   science fiction on TV.

------------------------------

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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #102
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 28 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:

		Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Drake (8 msgs) &
                        Haldeman (2 msgs) & Harrison &
                        Smith & Story Request Answered

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 05:37:36 GMT
From: dalew@qiclab.uucp (Dale Weber)
Subject: Re: Anthony writes non-hack work, SHOCK HORROR PROBE!!!

cwp@otter.hple.hp.com (Chris Preist) writes:
>While I agree with the general comments made by M. Farren above with
>respect to Piers Anthony, I can recall reading rather a good book by him
>about 5 years ago. It was called OMNIVORE, and dealt rather cleverly with
>communication with a peculiar alien race, the Manta. What do any of you
>'literary SF' fans who have read it think about it?

Orn, Omnivore, and Ox were the very first books I read by Piers Anthony and
I really enjoyed each one and in fact read them three times. Other very
good books I've read are Mute and Macrscope (among the 50 or so of his that
I've read over the years). Regardless of what quality the other books may
be (like the Xanth series and all the others) I enjoy them all if for no
other reason that to just escape for awhile into a different world. True,
he has some very good and some not so good stuff, but I still like it
regardless. BTW, the 4th Apprentice Adept book (Out of Phaze) is good and
there is at least one more on the way (Robot Adept). I say "Bring them on!"

..!{tektronix!reed, uunet!littlei}!percival!casper!dalew
..!tektronix!{ ogcvax, psu-cs, reed }!qiclab!casper!dalew

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 11:00:34 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: *ALL* Anthony is trash

Most sci-fi requires a little "willingness to suspend disbelief", but the
main problem with Anthony is not that.  It is that his books also require a
"willingness to suspend intelligence" as well.  This isn't as bad as it
sounds (after all, most sci-fi is more fi than sci), but he has no other
redeeming qualities like well developed characters or interesting themes.
Instead he has catchy covers and a jerry-built plot.  Piers Anthony is
without a doubt the most inept writer ever published.  Those of you who
read his sh*t are as dogs that lap water from the toilet bowl (the dog
enjoys it, but it is disgusting to watch).

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 01:06:22 GMT
From: duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan)
Subject: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

I've been reading David Drake's "Hammer's Slammer's" series in hopes of
gaining some background material for an SF role playing game campaign I'm
working on. I noted that the metal Drake says is used for the barrels of
powerguns and the armor of tanks is iridium. I looked this substance up in
a chemistry book and I don't understand why it would be suitable for any of
the purposes for which Drake suggests it is used.

Iridium has the following listing in the chem book I consulted:

Iridium
     symbol: Ir
   atomic #: 77
 atomic wt.: 192.2

Iridium is listed as a "transition metal".

Questions:
1. Does iridium have a very high melting point?
2. Is iriduim very hard/strong? 
3. Why iridium rather than say a titanium alloy?
4. Is iridium really a good choice, or does Drake have a poor 
   understanding of chemistry and science?

Thanks in advance,
 
Jim Duncan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 14:40:22 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan) writes:
> I've been reading David Drake's "Hammer's Slammer's" series in hopes of
> gaining some background material for an SF role playing game campaign I'm
> working on.

If you are working a a campaign, I wouldn't base it on Hammer's Slammer's.
Don't get me wrong HS is a great series, but having done extensive work as
a Striker (miniatures game by GDW) mercenary company commander at about HS
tech level, HS is a pissant unit.  They work in the book, because they are
always fighting people who are worse than they are either in technology or
equipment.  In a heads up tech and equipment fight they are dead meat.
Primarily this is due to the fact that David Drake based the unit on the
Armored Cav unit he served with in Vietnam.  The purpose of Armored Cav is
to find the enemy and hold until the heavies get there i.e. it is cheap,
light and fast.  In Vietnam these guys were great since the enemy didn't
have much heavies.  In WWII and likely in WWIII the average life of a
vehicle in such a unit is about 1 week.  If you allow players to make up
their own units you will find that you either have to make extensive and
unjustified rules to force a HS type unit or you will get something
completely different from what you intended.  Like I said I don't want to
put down David Drake's series, one of the reasons it is so good is that he
based his unit on something he knew and that makes it come alive.  I'm just
saying that I wouldn't want to face a unit built by a gamer while serving
in Hammer's.

> Questions:
> 1. Does iridium have a very high melting point?
> 2. Is iriduim very hard/strong? 
> 3. Why iridium rather than say a titanium alloy?
> 4. Is iridium really a good choice, or does Drake have a poor 
>    understanding of chemistry and science?

Since Drake mentions in one of the books that he supported himself by being
a lawyer I suspect he chose iridium either for its name, or based on a
layman's article he read on its properties, or both.  However, I'm not sure
of the exact properties either.

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 04:28:04 GMT
From: c60b-gk@buddy.berkeley.edu (James Chou)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

Iridium is the second densest element (and not by much).  Its more than
twice as dense as lead.  It is very hard (6.0-6.5 on 1-10 scale, diamond
being ten) and very brittle.  It also has a very high melting point (about
2400 degree C).

It seems to be a good material to make bullets and shells out of. But I
cannot think why would anyone use it to build a barrel.

I hope this answers your question.

James Chou
c60b-gk@buddy.Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 13:40:49 GMT
From: duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

c60b-gk@buddy.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (James Chou) writes:
>Iridium is the second densest element (and not by much).
>Its more than twice as dense as lead.  It is very hard
>(6.0-6.5 on 1-10 scale, diamond being ten) and very brittle.
>It also has a very high melting point (about 2400 degree C).

Thanks this confirms that Drake's science was OK. Powerguns shot something
like a plasma beam. The high melting point is the key here.
 
Jim Duncan

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 05:12:08 GMT
From: ubg@psuvm.bitnet
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan) says:
>I noted that the metal Drake says is used for the barrels of powerguns and
>the armor of tanks is iridium. I looked this substance up in a chemistry
>book and I don't understand why it would be suitable for any of the
>purposes for which Drake suggests it is used.

    Iridium has the highest density (22.65g/cm3) of all the metals. It's
melting point is about 2137 degrees Kelvin. It the most corrosion resistant
metal known, and is not attacked by any of the acids. Therefore it would
make some sense to use it to make powergun barrels. However, it is
difficult to machine, form, or work Iridium. The uses for it include
ballpoint pen tips, crucibles, electrical contacts, and alloys with
Platinum.

    Titanium's melting point is about 1390 degrees Kelvin, which is
considerably lower than Iridium. I'm not sure about the alloys. Titanium is
not as corrosive resistant as Iridium, even though it is much stronger.

    This all seems to support the use of Iridium for powergun barrels,
since they would have to withstand high temperatures and corrosion.

ubg%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!
 psuvma.BITNET!ubg

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 20:10:59 GMT
From: grgurich@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Matthew Grgurich)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

duncanj@umd5 (James Duncan) writes:
>c60b-gk@buddy.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (James Chou) writes:
>>Iridium is the second densest element (and not by much).  Its more than
>>twice as dense as lead.  It is very hard (6.0-6.5 on 1-10 scale, diamond
>>being ten) and very brittle.  It also has a very high melting point
>>(about 2400 degree C).
>
>Thanks this confirms that Drake's science was OK. Powerguns shot something
>like a plasma beam. The high melting point is the key here.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that for matter to be in the plasma
state,it must attain temperatures in the (millions?) of degrees celsius.
The point being that even if it did not melt the armor, the conducted heat
and electro-magnetic effects of the contact would be fairly awesome. That's
one of the big troubles with the fusion research -- the magnetic storage
device.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT a physics major.

Matt Grgurich

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 21:57:45 GMT
From: rmtodd@uokmax.uucp (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

c60b-gk@buddy.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (James Chou) writes:
>It seems to be a good material to make bullets and shells out of. But I
>cannot think why would anyone use it to build a barrel.

Remember, in David Drake's stories, the barrels are on very high-powered
energy weapons.  Other metals might well be melted by stray energy from the
beam.  Several places in the stories he mentions the powergun beams being
hot enough to *vaporize* part of the iridium armor they hit.  The guns also
had special liquid-nitrogen containers in insulating sheaths as part of the
ammunition; after each round fires, liquid nitrogen is released into the
gun to keep it from melting.  Looks like they wouldn't have much choice
except to use iridium or some other similar metal.

Richard Todd
820 Annie Court
Norman OK 73069
rmtodd@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
UUCP: {cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 19:35:56 GMT
From: c60b-gk@buddy.berkeley.edu (James Chou)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

rmtodd@uokmax.UUCP (Richard Michael Todd) writes:
>c60b-gk@buddy.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (James Chou) writes:
>>It seems to be a good material to make bullets and shells out of. But I
>>cannot think why would anyone use it to build a barrel.
>Remember, in David Drake's stories, the barrels are on very high-powered
>energy weapons.  Other metals might well be melted by stray energy from
>the beam.  Several places in the stories he mentions the powergun beams
>being hot enough to *vaporize* part of the iridium armor they hit.  The
>guns also had special liquid-nitrogen containers in insulating sheaths as
>part of the ammunition; after each round fires, liquid nitrogen is
>released into the gun to keep it from melting.  Looks like they wouldn't
>have much choice except to use iridium or some other similar metal.

First of all, I never read the book.  So don't blame me for not knowing
Drake's gun is an energy weapon.

Nevertheless, I question the wisdom of using iridium as BARREL and ARMOR.
Remember, iridium is *VERY* HEAVY and BRITTLE and it does not have the
highest melting point of all elements.  And I don't think (I did not check)
it is a magnetic or superconducting material.  Beside, it does not have
high specific heat, so I doubt that it can take too much energy before it
melts.

James Chou

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 19:49:00 GMT
From: peter@prism.tmc.com
Subject: Re: THE FOREVER WAR

_The Forever War_ was written in the early to mid seventies by Joe
Haldeman, who I think is a Vietnam veteran.  The book deals with the life
and relativistic times of a soldier called Mandella who fights a pointless
and seemingly endless war against aliens from the Taurus constellation.
Since the war is fought across interstellar distances and often at
near-light speeds Mandella physically ages years while centuries pass on
Earth. The irony is, that the Earth-siders insist on continuing the
struggle in order to justify the cost, yet over the centuries the real
reason, if there was any, has been forgotten. The soldiers become more and
more cut off from a world they knew by time dilation and by their
experiences.

Haldeman's book is to the Viet Nam War what Heinlein's book _Starship
Troopers_ was to World War II.  I must say I liked Haldeman's book better.

Peter J. Stucki
Mirror Systems
2067 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA, 02140
617-661-0777 extension 131
peter@mirror.TMC.COM	
UUCP:{mit-eddie,ihnp4,harvard!wjh12,cca,cbosg,seismo}!mirror!peter

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 00:51:20 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.uucp
Subject: The Forever War

>The Forever War was written by Joe Haldeman[...]  The novel, written in
>the early to mid seventies, seemed to rework the issues of the Vietnam
>War in a science fiction setting.

Haldeman is a Vietnam Vet who was fairly badly injured over there. A lot of
his stuff tends to take a rather nasty look at war. The Forever War was
written to be a direct counterpoint to Heinlein's Starship Troopers, which
glorifies exactly those things Haldeman points out are pretty nasty (it
should be pointed out that Heinlein was a career soldier, so both
viewpoints tend to reflect their experiences in the military).

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 23:26:13 GMT
From: skitchen@athena.mit.edu (The Skinner)
Subject: Do YOU want Harry Harrison in Boston on July 15?

As President and Skinner of the MIT Science Fiction Society, I got a call
today from a representative of Bantam Books.  Apparently, Harry Harrison
will be doing some travelling, and I was asked if there might be enough
interest in the Boston area for Harry to come here and talk or do a book
signing or whatever...

If there's interest out there about having him here, I want to know about
it.  I'm to call this woman back on Wednesday, March 30, to give her an
idea of how much support he can expect to see if he comes here.  Please
send me mail if you'd be interested in having Harry Harrison here on July
15.

Thanks a lot in advance.  Hope to hear from many of you.  Remember, we
thank you for your support...

Scott Kitchen
MIT Science Fiction Society
skitchen@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 23:09:01 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Lensman Series-- order info requested

jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu writes:
>haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>Two other books, "Spacehounds of IPC" and "The Vortex Blasters" are set
>>in the same universe, but are not really part of the series.
>SPACEHOUNDS?!?  This is set in the Lensman universe?  

Nope.  I did a search in a bibliographical database once (amazing the
things hidden in OCLC if you can just figure out how to get 'em out!):

E.E. "Doc" Smith

Triplanetary
First Lensman
Galactic Patrol
Gray Lensman
Second Stage Lensman
Masters of the Vortex (alt. The Vortex Blaster)
Children of the Lens

A few books have been written by other authors.  Specifically, there exists
a story by an author whose name I have forgotten, called "New Lensman"; it
supposedly updates the Lensman universe to "modern" physics.  (Ha!)  Also
available are three (last I checked) books by David Kyle, about the other
Second Stage Lensmen:

The Dragon Lensman
Lensman from Rigel
Z-Lensman

I've read *those*: Lensman "purists" should avoid them.  Kyle takes some
rather grave liberties with the canon; I can see why he would want to, but
he missed a few important points concerning *why* things were as they were.
The changes in question were *not* scientific in nature.  (I assume there
isn't enough interest to post, so if you're interested send mail and I'll
detail them.)

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!hnsurg3,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 20:28:18 GMT
From: matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: serendipity, inc?

The title you are looking for is the company's motto: "We Also Walk Dogs".
I don't think you got the name of the company right, but I don't remember
it either.  The story is by Heinlein and I think you can find it collected
in _Expanded_Universe_.

Matt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 28 Mar 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:

	   Miscellaneous - Politics (5 msgs) & Aliens (3 msgs) &
                           Conventions (3 msgs) & 
                           World Classifications (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 88 23:48:01 GMT
From: mok@pawl2.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) writes:
>As someone sympathetic to objectivism (small-o only) and other
>individualist philsophies/politics, I have been collecting fiction, mostly
>science-fiction, which are either about libertarianism or have allusions.
>I'm listing the books I know of here and would love to hear from other
>people.  Any replies sent to me will be summarized and posted.  I would
>also like to see a list of Prometheus Award winners, if anyone has one.

   If you're interested in politics, libertarianism or the like you should
try almost ANYTHING by Mack Reynolds. I don't remember many of the titles
off the top of my head (he wrote a LOT and I haven't read most of them),
but they are all good and almost all politically inspired.
   The only problem I have with Mack Reynolds is that a fair number of his
books are set in one of 3 different worlds all of which have a oppressive
government or other serious problems and he writes the books at different
intervals in their history. You get to see these world slowly, but steadily
going from bad to worse... At least I have had the satisfaction of seeing
things finally STARTING to look up in one of these worlds, but it gets
REALLY depressing when you know that the future of the world you're reading
about is even worse than the present.

mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 01:32:11 GMT
From: stephens@hpcupt1.hp.com (Greg Stephens)
Subject: Re: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

Thanks for the recommendation.  I get a newsletter from a Liberterian/ Free
Enterprise book club in NY (can't remember the name now) that list a few SF
books that they liked.  The only one I have read is Heinleins' _Moon is a
Harsh Mistress_ which I liked.

I am curious if anyone has read and can recommend any of the other books on
their list (off the top of my head) they are:

Anderson, Poul     _Orion Shall Rise_
Koman, Victor      _The Jehovah Contract_
Smith, L. Neil     _The Probability Broach_

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 22:11:44 GMT
From: vohra@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Pavan Vohra)
Subject: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes:
>And Then There Were None  by Eric Frank Russell
>(I don't know offhand where this can be found, check classic
>anthologies)

Try _Science Fiction Hall of Fame_.

Pavan Vohra
Amdahl Corporation
Sunnyvale, CA 94086-3470
{hplabs|ames|ihnp4|decwrl}!amdahl!vohra

------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 88 02:50:52 GMT
From: gls@odyssey.att.com (g.l.sicherman)
Subject: Re: Books with Objectivism, [SPOILERS]

Such a book is _The Eye in the Pyramid_ by R. Shea and R. A. Wilson.  It's
s.f./fantasy.  One of the characters, Atlanta Hope, has a big cult novel
called _Telemachus Sneezed,_--and a cult called "God's Lightning" to go
with it!  They're both *very* individualistic books, maybe even too
individualistic for a novice like you.  You might start with Van Vogt's
_The World of Null-A,_ in which the main character gets killed in the
middle, and a clone of him starts living the rest of the novel for him.
You can't get much more individualistic than that!

Col. G. L. Sicherman
...!ihnp4!odyssey!gls

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 16:37:11 GMT
From: eric@snark.uucp (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

Ellen R. Spertus writes:
>James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and
>_Code of the Lifemaker_.  Neither have any explicit references to
>libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist.

Ah. Obviously you haven't yet read Hogan's _Voyage_From_Yesteryear_, which
is explicitly anarcho-individualist. I also recommend Vernor Vinge's work;
most notably _The_Peace_War_, _Marooned_In_Realtime_, and the bridge
novelette _The_Ungoverned_Lands_ (recently reissued in the excellent
_True_Names_And_ Other_Dangers anthology); all three are explicitly
anarcho-libertarian.

I also recommend Marc Stiegler's _David's_Sling_, not explicitly
libertarian but very interesting for its suggestions on how information-age
decentralist thinking can beat industrial-age statism (though he never uses
the latter label).

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 08:57:11 GMT
From: rob@amadeus.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

Two of my favorite aliens aren't really aliens but curiously have almost
identical modes of communication.

1.  The Neanderthals in _Clan of the Cave Bear_ by Jean Auel.  The best
thing about them is that they are not stereotyped.  They're almost human
but have sufficient differences to qualify as 'aliens' by sf standards.

2.  The racoons in _The Architect of Sleep_ by Steven Boyett.  Again they
are not stereotyped and are almost human.

Dan Tilque
dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 02:03:44 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) says:
>But while an author has no excuse (except lack of talent) for unconvincing
>humans (surely he has met some :-)), there's a reasonable one for un-alien
>aliens.

Well, often an author can deliberately choose not to infuse characters with
a good deal of personality, for the artistic purpose of reminding the
reader of the artificiality of the reading experience.

In other cases, over-characterizing could rob the story's ideas of their
central place in the fiction.  This is true in some cases of "hard"
science-fiction, and does not necessarily make a poor book.  Again, Niven
is an example of this, and he is simply one of the most _fun_ authors
writing today.

Only in stories in which characterization plays a major role is it
inexcusable to detail characters poorly.

Lack of characterization, thus, does not _always_ reflect on the lack
of talent of the writer.

...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 22:08:00 GMT
From: gwp@hcx3.ssd.harris.com
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

cok@psuvm.bitnet writes:
> The best writer at simulating alien thought I've seen is Samuel R.
> Delany; though his characters are, for the most part, human, the changes
> in the human norm represented in the works of Delany depict a
> consciousness which could be described with reasonable accuracy as alien.

Yes.  Read "Stars In My Pockets Like Grains Of Sand".  Though a pointless
book in many ways (actually the jury is still out on this, I'll have to
read it again) it has a way of portraying "aliens" that makes them
undeniably non-human in thought and emotion, yet each person/alien remains
a separate individual, and not just another instantiation of some
preconceived "alien" stereotype.

Delbert de la Platz
gwp@ssd.harris.com

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 06:34:01 GMT
From: taras@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (T. Pryjma)
Subject: Syracuse DD convention - FESTICON 88

I am posting this for friend who is on BITNET only, for more information
please respond to her and not to me.  Thank you ....

                                FESTICON 88
                              August 27 and 28

     Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, Star Fleet Battles, Traveler, etc.

		  Tournaments, Art Show and Costume Party

Tentative Itinerary:
                                                    
   Friday before 9: Check into hotel                                       
   Friday 9-whenever: Open Gaming                                          
   Saturday: Tournament sessions - 4hour morning session and 4hour         
      afternoon session in all games.                               
   Saturday Night: Rock and Roll DJ Costume Party                          
   Sunday Morning: Final Qualifying Rounds                                 
   Sunday Afternoon: Master Dungeon and Championship Tournaments           
      entrance to be won in earlier gaming sessions)       

Write to below address for more information.                 

WANTED: DM's GM's etc.  If chosen, you will receive Half price admission
for DMing 2 Sessions and FREE admission for more then that.  All DM's
subject to committee approval.  Write to below address for more info,
specifying preference of game to GM.

   FESTICON 88                                      
   c/o Walden III                                   
   547 Allen Street                                 
   Syracuse, New York 13210                         
   RETANTS@SUNRISE.BITNET                           
   RETANTS@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU                         

Taras Pryjma 
+1 (416) 536-2821
uucp: taras@gpu.utcs
bitnet: tpryjma@utoronto

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 17:17:44 GMT
From: jean@ltuxa.att.com (Jean Airey)
Subject: con announcement

MARCON XXIII
April 29 - May 1
Radisson Hotel Columbus North
Columbus, OH
Guests: David Brin, Michael Whelan, Hal Clement

Programming: multi-track
Art Show (One of the best in the mid-west)
Masquerade
Dealer's room
Video (two rooms)
Gaming
Filking
Con Suite
SASE Box 21101, Columbus, OH 43221
call (614) 475-0158

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 20:38:51 GMT
From: wabbit@lakesys.uucp (Tim Haas)
Subject: X-Con 12

X-Con is Milwaukee's first and formost Science Fiction Convention, now in
it's twelfth year. It is being held June 10-12, 1988 at the Red Carpet Inn,
4747 S. Howell Ave., Milwaukee, WI.

Our Guests of Honor are:
   Somtow Sucharitkul  -  Author GoH
   Bruce Pelz          -  Fan GoH
   Dell Harris	       -  Artist GoH
   Wilson 'Bob' Tucker -  First Fandom GoH

Mailing Address:  
   X-Con, Ltd.
   P.O. Box 7
   Milwaukee, WI 53201

Volunteers are always needed for Gophers, Badgers, and Security work.

This year we are having an Ice Cream Social / Meet the Pros on Friday eve.
The cost is $3.75 (all-you-can-eat) with part of the proceeds going to the
American Diabetes Association.  We are also sponsoring a blood drive this
year.

Huckster Info: 
   Lon Levy
   P.O. Box 1505
   Milwaukee, WI 53201-1505
   (414)444-8888

Art Show: 
   Unconventional Art Exhibitions, Inc
   c/o Giovanna Fregni
   2104 W. Juneau Ave, Milwaukee, WI 53233-1119
   (Please enclose SASE along with requests for info.)

Program Book Ads: for info, write to X-Con Mailing Address.
Masquerade Info: Nancy Mildbrant, c/o X-Con.

In addition to all of the above, we will of course be continuing our video
rooms (yes, that's plural), filking, dance, and our usual opulent consuite,
and whatever other silliness we come up with and maybe some that you
suggest.

If you wish to be put onto our mailing list for the second Progress Report,
E-mail your name and address to me (lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu)
or writeto our address above.

I am the Security Chief for the Con, and will be able to pass your
questions, comments, or info requests to the appropriate people.

Timothy Haas

Tim Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233
(414) 344-6988
UUCP: {...rutgers,ames,ucbvax} !uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit   
Inet: lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu
...uunet!marque!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 09:38:48 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: World Classes

koreth@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Steven Grimm) writes:
>Can anyone give me a list of the alphabetic world classes used in Star
>Trek and several other science fiction settings?  For instance, an
>Earth-type planet is class M.  Thanks...

They aren't "world" classes - they're stellar classes, used to classify
stars, mainly on the basis of their temperature.  Check out any basic
astronomy book for more detail.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 20:50:03 GMT
From: griffith@sting.uucp (Jim Griffith)
Subject: Re: World Classes

> farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>koreth@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Steven Grimm) writes:
>>Can anyone give me a list of the alphabetic world classes used in Star
>>Trek and several other science fiction settings?  For instance, an
>>Earth-type planet is class M.  Thanks...
>
>They aren't "world" classes - they're stellar classes, used to classify
>stars, mainly on the basis of their temperature.  Check out any basic
>astronomy book for more detail.

Sorry.  You're right, but you're wrong.  What you are referring to is the
'spectral classification' of stars according to size and temperature. The
classifications used are A,B,K,G,M,O, and each classification is further
subdivided by the numbers 0-9.  Our sun is a G2 star.  What Star Trek
refers to by 'class M' is a classification of planets according to size and
atmosphere.  Earth is a class M planet.

Jim Griffith
...!ucbvax!scam!griffith
griffith@scam.Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 23:29:41 GMT
From: emp@ut-emx.uucp (naDev~tlhIngan~putulu)
Subject: Re: World Classes

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
> koreth@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Steven Grimm) writes:
>>Can anyone give me a list of the alphabetic world classes used in Star
>>Trek and several other science fiction settings?  For instance, an
>>Earth-type planet is class M.  Thanks...
> They aren't "world" classes - they're stellar classes, used to classify
> stars, mainly on the basis of their temperature.  Check out any basic
> astronomy book for more detail.

The question, as stated above, DID refer to a list of classes for planets,
and gave Class M as but one example (another was mentioned in "I, Mudd").
This wa NOT what Steven asked for, and an astronomy text would not help.

What is needed is the class definitions that are contained in the "Star
Trek Maps" booklet (no, it's not in front of me, so I canna post then now),
which had classes A through O, and X. It also explained the Ritter scale of
sociotechnological development.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 22:28:19 GMT
From: skeeve@mhuxu.uucp (Chris Riley)
Subject: Re: World Classes vs Stellar Classes

Nope.  The various classes of stars in order from hottest (bluest) to
coldest (reddest) are: O, B, A, F, G, K, M.  The classes are further graded
by a single digit following the letter, with 9 being hotter than 0.  Sol is
a G2 class star.  The original question was referring to planetary classes,
such as where Spock would refer to a planet as class M, thus being able to
support life.  The two systems are entirely different.  I do not know what
the planetary classification system is, or if it was just made up for the
series.  Incidently, the common mnemonic for remembering the star classes
is: "Oh Be A Fine Girl (or Guy) Kiss Me."

Chris Riley
{attmail|ihnp4}mhuxu!skeeve

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 21:17:03 GMT
From: duane@cg-atla.uucp (Andrew Duane X5993)
Subject: Re: World Classes vs Stellar Classes

skeeve@mhuxu.UUCP (Chris Riley) writes:
> Nope.  The various classes of stars in order from hottest (bluest) to
> coldest (reddest) are: O, B, A, F, G, K, M.

Pretty good, but you missed two. The list of classes is:
(blue)  O(h)
        B(e)
        A
        F(ine)
        G(irl)
        K(iss)
        M(e)
        R(ight)
        N(ow)
(red)   S(weetheart)

Andrew L. Duane 
Compugraphic Corp.
200 Ballardvale St.
Wilmington, Mass. 01887
Mail Stop 200II-3-5S    
w:(617)-658-5600 X5993  h:(617)-475-9188
...cg-atla!duane

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 04:49:43 GMT
From: wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu (Bill Wyatt)
Subject: Re: stellar classes

>skeeve@mhuxu.UUCP (Chris Riley) writes:
>> Nope.  The various classes of stars in order from hottest (bluest) to
>> coldest (reddest) are: O, B, A, F, G, K, M.
>
>Pretty good, but you missed two. The list of classes is:
>(blue) O(h)
>       B(e)
>       A
>       F(ine)
>       G(irl)
>       K(iss)
>       M(e)
>       R(ight)
>       N(ow)
>(red)  S(weetheart)

Not quite. Class `M' is the reddest. Classes R, N, and S are special
classes, not on the main sequence. Historically they were distinguished,
but not so much so now. For example, S class stars are ones exhibiting
spectra indicative of a high velocity stellar wind.  They are not
necessarily the reddest stars.

The classes are further subdivided into ten ranges: 0 through 9 (although
no stars brighter than O3 or so are known), and also into luminosity
classes, denoted by Roman Numerals:
   I  (very luminous supergiant)
  II  (less luminous supergiant)
 III  (giant)
  IV  (sub giant)
   V  (dwarf - NOTE this is the main sequence)
  VI  (subdwarf)

There are even finer classifications (Ia, Ib, etc).  Thus, the Sun is a G2V
star, and Vega is a A0V.  Note that the `V' class is called a dwarf, which
is only in relation to the giant stars. The stars called `white dwarfs' are
in fact sub-dwarfs, but the term was coined before the modern nomenclature
evolved.

Bill Wyatt
UUCP:  {husc6,ihnp4,cmcl2,mit-eddie}!harvard!cfa!wyatt
ARPA:  wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu
      wyatt%cfa@harvard.harvard.edu
BITNET:  wyatt@cfa2

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************

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To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #104
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 31 Mar 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Blaylock (3 msgs) & Cabell (3 msgs) &
                       Card & Donaldson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 22:04:34 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: James P. Blaylock

While I'm on, I might as well tell everyone here that James P. Blaylock is
one of the best fantasy or science-fiction writers currently writing.  If
you want fantasy which is delightfully humanistic yet not mawkish, go out
and buy _The Elfin Ship_, _The Disappearing Dwarf_, and _Land of Dreams_
right this moment.

Also read _Homunculus_ and _The Digging Leviathan_ and anything else he
writes in the next fifty years.

I mean that.

(_The Elfin Ship_, _The Disappearing Dwarf_, _Homunculus_, and _The Digging
Leviathan_ were all available at some time or another from Ace, but most
are either now out of print or too difficult to get copies of.  Send nasty
letters to the people at Ace demanding they reprint them, and _now_!  _Land
of Dreams_ is probably still available in hardcover from Arbor House.  _The
Road to Balumnia_, the third book in the series to which _The Elfin Ship_
and _The Disappearing Dwarf_ belong, should be out soon, probably from
Ace.)

Trust James P. Blaylock.  James P. Blaylock is your friend.

...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 19:26:03 GMT
From: ansley@sunybcs.uucp (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: James P. Blaylock

COK@PSUVMA.BITNET (R. W. F. Clark) writes:
>While I'm on, I might as well tell everyone here that James P. Blaylock is
>one of the best fantasy or science-fiction writers currently writing.
[...]
>Also read _Homunculus_ and _The Digging Leviathan_ and anything else he
>writes in the next fifty years.
[...]

I have read the above 2 books by Blaylock, only, and based on them I have
no desire to read anything else he has written.  I find his style
disjointed.  He also seems to delight in leaving tons of loose ends laying
around.  I prefer my escapist reading nicely tied off.  If I want loose
ends, I can try dealing with real life.

William H. Ansley
uucp:	  ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:	  ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 02:39:55 GMT
From: austin@sun.uucp (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Re: James P. Blaylock

William Ansley writes:
>I have read the above 2 books by Blaylock, only, and based on them I have
>no desire to read anything else he has written.
> I prefer my escapist reading nicely tied off.

I would agree that Blaylock's writing is not escapist. It reminds me much
more of Philip Dick's work. These are not easily digested by casual
reading. One must chew thoroughly. However, I still think they are most
enjoyable. Please try reading either Land Of Dreams or The Elfin Ship. They
are both different from the two you mentioned and each other.

For those who also read PKD: In Valis, Blaylock is portrayed by the
character David. The other member of the Rhipoden Society, Kevin, is also a
well known SF writer.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Mar 88 05:38:02 GMT
From: welty@sunbarney.steinmetz (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Out of Print Books - including _Jurgen_ by James Branch Cabell

djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>Dover has also printed an edition of Cabell's THE HIGH PLACE, which makes
>that the only book of Cabell's to have *two* recent editions.

As well as an excuse to flood the net with more useless Cabell collectors
information:

_The_High_Place_:_A_Comedy_of_Disenchantment_

12 Nov 1923 -- First Edition
   Large, black, gilt lettering, end papers, frontispiece, seven
   illustrations, initial letters, and tail pieces by Frank C. Pape.
   First Edition limited to 2000 copies.
?? 1923  -- Second Printing -- Kalki binding, same plates as First Edition,
   only preserves initial letters from illustrations of First Edition.
Sept 1928 -- Volume 8 of the Storisende edition.  No significant revisions
   were ever made by Cabell after the first edition as far as I know.

In the back of _Straws_and_Prayer_Books_, Cabell included excerpts from his
favorite bad reviews of his many books.  Herewith are quotes from the bad
reviews of _The_High_Place_:

  Mr. Cabell has not been able to recapture the first fine careless rapture
of ``Jurgen.''  -- Newark Evening News, New Jersey

  ``The High Place'' very definitely impresses one with the fact that it
must be hard to produce two ``Jurgens.'' -- El Pas Times, Texas

  Not a book which cuts so deeply as did one or two passages in ``Jurgen.'
   -- Llewellyn Jones, in Chicage Post.

  Disappointment waits for those who buy ``The High Place'' for that which
``Jurgen'' has led them to expect. -- Eedward Hope, in New York Tribune

  Fails to create the atmosphere which made ``Jurgen.'' -- Bernice Stewart,
Detroit Free Press

  Not the equivalent of ``Jurgen.'' -- Laurence Stallings, in New York
World

  This book seems but a degraded descendant of ``Jurgen.'' ``The High
Place'' is an utterly impossible, sacrilegious, immoral and obscene work
that could not be too strongly condemned.  -- H. W. A., in Akron Press,
Ohio.

Me, I kind of liked _The_High_Place_, myself.  I guess there's no
accounting for taste.

Richard Welty
Phone H: 518-237-6307  W: 518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{rochester,philabs,uunet}!steinmetz!welty        

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 17:37:33 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Cabell Bibliography

Well, since you asked...

The following is a "selected bibliography" from JAMES BRANCH CABELL, by Joe
Lee Davis, College and University Press, 1962.

It says it's "Limited to the Works of Cabell Discussed in This Study."

A. "Biography of the Life of Manuel" THE WORKS OF JAMES BRANCH CABELL,
Storisende Edition, 18 vols.  New York: Robert M. McBride & Company,
1927-1930

I.     BEYOND LIFE:  DIZAINE DES DEMIURGES (pub. 1919).
II.    FIGURES OF EARTH:  A COMEDY OF APPEARANCES (pub. 1921)
III.   THE SILVER STALLION:  A COMEDY OF REDEMPTION (pub. 1926)
IV.    DOMNEI (pub. as THE SOUL OF MELICENT 1913, rev. 1920) and
       THE MUSIC FROM BEHIND THE MOON (1926):  TWO COMEDIES OF
       WOMAN-WORSHIP)
V.     CHIVALRY:  DIZAIN DES REINES (pub. 1909, rev. 1921)
VI.    JURGEN:  A COMEDY OF JUSTICE (pub. 1919)
VII.   THE LINE OF LOVE:  DIZAIN DES MARIAGES (pub. 1905, rev. 1921)
VIII.  THE HIGH PLACE:  A COMEDY OF DISENCHANTMENT (pub. 1923)
IX.    GALLANTRY:  DIZAIN DES FETS GALANTES (pub. 1907, rev. 1922)
X.     SOMETHING ABOUT EVE:  A COMEDY OF FIG-LEAVES (pub. 1927)
XI.    THE CERTAIN HOUR:  DIZAIN DES POETES (pub. 1916)
XII.   THE CORDS OF VANITY:  A COMEDY OF SHIRKING (pub. 1909, rev. 1920)
XIII.  FROM THE HIDDEN WAY (pub. 1916, rev. 1924) and THE JEWEL MERCHANTS
	  (pub. 1921):  DIZAIN AND COMEDY OF ECHOES
XIV.   THE RIVET IN GRANDFATHER'S NECK:  A COMEDY OF LIMITATIONS (pub. 1915)
XV.    THE EAGLE'S SHADOW:  A COMEDY OF PURSE-STRINGS (pUB. 1904, rev. 1923)
XVI.   THE CREAM OF THE JEST (pub. 1917) and THE LINEAGE OF LICHFIELD (pub.
	  1922):  TWO COMEDIES OF EVASION
XVII.  STRAWS AND PRAYER-BOOKS:  DIZAIN DES DIVERSIONS (pub. 1924)
XVIII. TOWNSEND OF LICHFIELD:  DIZAIN DES ADIEUX (containing, in addition
       to the title piece and other odds and ends, THE WHITE ROBE (pub.
       1928), THE WAY OF ECBEN (pub. 1929), TABOO (pub. 1921), and
       SONNETS FROM ANTAN (pub. 1929)

PREFACE TO THE PAST New York: Robert M. McBride & Company, 1936.  (Reprints
of prefaces to the Storisende Edition, etc.)

THE WITCH-WOMAN: A TRILOGY ABOUT HER.  New York: Farrar, Straus and
Company, 1948.  (Reprints of THE MUSIC FROM BEHIND THE MOON, THE WAY OF
ECBEN, and THE WHITE ROBE)

B.  Later Essays and Autobiography

SOME OF US: AN ESSAY IN EPITAPHS.  New York: Robert M. McBride & Company,
1930

"Their Lives and Letters":
   1.  THESE RESTLESS HEADS: A TRILOGY OF ROMANTICS.  New York: Robert
       McBride & Company, 1932.
   2.  SPECIAL DELIVERY: A PACKET OF REPLIES.  New York: Robert McBride &
       Company, 1933
   3.  LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: A PARCEL OF RECONSIDERATIONS.  New York:
       Robert McBride & Company, 1934

"Virginians are Variou"
   1.  LET ME LIE: BEING IN THE MAIN AN ETHNOLOGICAL ACCOUNT OF THE
       REMARKABLE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA AND THE MAKIG OF ITS HISTORY.
       New York:  Farrar, Straus and Company, 1947
   2.  QUIET, PLEASE.  Gainesville: University of Florida Press, 1952.
   3.  AS I REMEMBER IT: SOME EPILOGUES IN RECOLLECTION.  New York: The
       McBride Company, 1955

C.  Later Predominantly Fictional Trilogies

"The Nightmare Has Triplets":
   1.  SMIRT: AN URBANE NIGHTMARE.  New York: Robert M. McBride & Company,
       1934
   2.  SMITH: A SYLVAN INTERLUDE.  New York: Robert M. McBride & Company,
       1935
   3.  SMIRE: AN ACCEPTANCE IN THE THIRD PERSON.  Garden City: Doubleday,
       Doran & Company, 1937

"Heirs and Assigns":
   1.  HAMLET HAD AN UNCLE: A COMEDY OF HONOR.  New York: Farrar &
       Rinehart, Inc. 1940.
   2.  THE KING WAS IN HIS COUNTING HOUSE: A COMEDY OF COMMON-SENSE.  New
       York:  Farrar & Rinehart, 1938
   3.  THE FIRST GENTLEMAN OF AMERICA: A COMEDY OF CONQUEST.  New York:
       Farrar & Rinehart, Inc., 1942

"It Happened in Florida":
   1.  THE ST. JOHNS: A PARADE OF DIVERSITIES (with A. J. Hanna).  Rivers
       of America Series.  New York:  Farrar & Rinehart, Inc., 1943
   2.  THERE WERE TWO PIRATES: A COMEDY OF DIVISION.  New York: Farrar,
       Straus and Company, Inc., 1946
   3.  THE DEVIL'S OWN DEAR SON: A COMEDY OF THE FATTED CALF.  New York:
       Farrar, Straus and Company, 1949.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 00:28:29 GMT
From: welty@sunbarney.steinmetz (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Cabell

ALBERGA@IBM.COM (Cyril Alberga) writes:
>In the past I have read and enjoyed the books by James Branch Cabell which
>were issued by Ballantine in their Adult Fantasy series, together with the
>Dover edition of Jurgan.  I have just picked up the eighteen volume
>"Works" (published by McBride from 1927 to 1930), and am starting over
>(obviously with much new matter).  I know Cabell lived until some time in
>the 1950's (1957 ??), and that he continued to write after the "Works"
>were published.  I see, in Books in Print that at least a few of his later
>books are available (some at rather outrageous prices).

He did write quite a bit afterwards.  1957 sounds right, especially since
the most recent Cabell volume I own is copyright 1955.  I'll have to check
into this -- if I turn out to be wrong, I'll follow up.

>Can any of the bibliophiles and bibliologists on the net tell me: a) are
>any of the later books part of the Biography of Manual and/or worth
>reading;

I've not read all of them, but I've not been disappointed yet.  Some were
written under the name ``Branch Cabell'', in an unsuccesful effort to
escape the notoriety of _Jurgen_.

>  b) are there any earlier writing, either in or out of print which was
>excluded from the "Works", as not part of the Biography.

As near as I can tell, all early works were either incorporated into the
Biography or were destroyed by Cabell.  Check _Townshend_of_Lichfield_ (a
volume in the Biography) for details.

Books after the Biography -- Cabell and his publisher (McBride) assigned
titles to six trilogies.  I have given the assigned name and the names of
the individual volumes below.  The degree of interconnection between the
volumes varies.

The Nightmare Has Triplets: (a trilogy about dreams)

_Smirt_
_Smith_
_Smire_

Also, a pamphlet was published with the same name as the collective name of
the trilogy.  The first editions were published at intervals, and so you
rarely find the complete trilogy all in one place in a used bookstore.

Heirs and Assigns: (another trilogy)

_Hamlet_Had_an_Uncle_
_The_King_Was_in_His_Counting_House_
_The_First_Gentleman_of_America_

Published at intervals, again.

It Happened in Florida: misc books about Florida

_The_St._Johns_              nonfiction, rivers of america series
_There_Were_Two_Pirates_     a novel about St. Augustine
_The_Devil's_Own_Dear_Son_   another novel about Florida

Their Lives and Letters:

_These_Restless_Heads_       a novel
_Special_Delivery_           no information
_Ladies_and_Gentlemen_       no information

Virginians Are Various:      misc autobiographical and essays

_Let_Me_Lie_                 various topics about Virginia
_Quiet,_Please_              philosophical musings about art
_As_I_Remember_It_           autobiographical musings about his
                             wives, and other things

Upon Genealogy:              misc books about genealogy

_Branchiana_
_Branch_of_Abingdon_
_The_Majors_and_Their_Marriges_

X, Y, & Z is the title of a grouping of misc. books not part of the six
trilogies or the Biography.  Some books that are listed in this grouping
are properly part of the biography.  I have omitted these books from this
listing:

_Joseph_Hergesheimer_    an appreciation of a now largely
                         forgotten writer
_Some_of_Us:_An_Essay_in_Epitahs_  literary criticism, various authors
_Of_Ellen_Glasgow,_An_Inscribed_Portrait_
                         with Ellen Glasgow, a writer and
                         friend of Cabell's

Richard Welty
Phone H: 518-237-6307  W: 518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{rochester,philabs,uunet}!steinmetz!welty        

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 06:24:05 GMT
From: kjm@xyzzy.uucp (Kevin J. Maroney)
Subject: Re: Card's _Seventh_Son_

jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>[Orson Scott Card's] Alvin series is to be a trilogy.

Since I seem to be the net's acting expert on O. Scott Card, I thought I
could spread a little light on the subject...

_The Tale of Alvin the Maker_ was originally intended to be a trilogy, and
the original contract with Tor/St. Martin's was for three volumes.
However, as Scott wrote the first volume (_Seventh Son_), he realized that
he had at least two more volumes' worth of material to include, especially
the entirety of _Red Prophet_. (Both Ta-Kumsaw and Lolla- Wossiky were
minor characters in his original storyline.) The contract was expanded to
five volumes, viz. _Seventh Son, Red Prophet, 'Prentice Alvin, Journeyman
Alvin_, and a fifth volume.

Sometime after that, Scott decided to make the series six volumes long.
The last volume (which I believe will be called _The Crystal City_) is not
yet under contract. It will certainly be published by _someone_, probably
putting a whole lot of money into Scott's hands.

As of the most recent update, _'Prentice Alvin_ is complete and should be
out by mid-summer. (This according to _Short Form_ #2, which is great and
which you should buy lots of copies of for all your friends.)

Just so you don't think I think Scott is a perfect writer, I want to point
out that in recent conversation (in January), Scott had not realized the
implications of one of the major actions in _RP_. To put it obliquely,
Scott forgot that one+one==two. He was delighted by the implications of the
act; he just hadn't realized that he had done them.  

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 19:01:59 GMT
From: tlh@pbhyf.pacbell.com (Lee Hounshell)
Subject: Re: A Man Rides Through (* SPOILERS! *)

pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell) writes:
>Donaldson blew it (opinion). After an intriguing build-up in The Mirror of
>Her Dreams, A Man Rides Through deteriorated into yet another Hero(ine)
>finds unsuspected powers, big fight at the end, decrepit leader recovers
>himself story. Another LOTR rip-off in fact.

So what did you expect him to do?  The baddies win and Teresa either dies
or is banished back to mundane Earth or somesuch?  Come on, man!  I think
the Donaldson set (The Mirror of her Dreams/A Man Rides Through) were
fantastic!!  The story was exactly what it professed to be when you picked
up the first book, a fantasy/adventure/romance novel.. and a good one at
that.  The only complaint I had with the set was that the first book ended
right in the middle of an immense suspense buildup.  Nothing was resolved,
and I had to wait a year for the second part to be published.  Really, both
of these books should have been published as either one volume, or a two
book set.  Also, I don't see how you can call the a Lord of the Rings
rip-off.. these Donaldson books aren't even remotely similar to LOTR.

Lee Hounshell

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 31 Mar 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:

	     Films - Aliens (4 msgs) & Beetlejuice (3 msgs) &
                     Gor (2 msgs) & Vice Versa & 
                     Star Wars (2 msgs) & The Thing (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Feb 88 19:40:10 GMT
From: russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: Blooper in Aliens (spoiler?)

There is a small blooper in Aliens:

It is in the fight scene with Ripley in the loader suit versus the mother
alien and when Ripley tries to throw the thing into the airlock and it
grabs her for the ride, the loader falls head first onto the deck, smashing
the yellow light on top.  When later she is laying on top of the alien at
the bottom of the lock the light is intact.  A minor mistake, hardly
noticeable, but funny.

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St
Omro WI 54963
russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 88 19:00:14 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Major Kano)
Subject: Re: Alan Dean Foster

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>mch@cf-cm.UUCP (Major Kano) writes:
>>What about "Alien" then ?  I always thought ADF wrote "the book of the
>>film". However, some people say that he was COMMISSIONED to write a
>>science-fiction horror movie of the "humans powerless against something
>>they don't understand" variety.
>
>Reading the book, it's pretty clear that Foster was working from an early
>shooting script - there's all the stuff in there that later turned out to
>have been edited out of the final film.  And if you are supposing that
>Foster wrote the original story from which Alien was derived, the rules of
>the Hollywood game would have made damn sure that his name appeared in the
>credits.  It did not, therefore he did not write the book first.

Thank for the info. I read "Alien" in school, but I've never seen it.  I've
seen "Aliens", but never read the book. Consequently, my info is sketchy.
Could anyone out there tell me WHO wrote ALIEN, and does anyone know where
the "ADF was commissioned ... " rhumour started ?
  Further more, what does everyone think of Aliens ? For my 3 Kbyte's
worth, the aliens won too easily, in out and out combat; and the whole
problem could be solved by uzi style sub-machine guns (lightweight) and
ultrasonic imaging. Also, a (British) SAS style attack would have been more
appropriate than virtually announcing their presence the way they did.
Does the US have an equivalent military force ?  Anyone like to comment ?
Feel free to e-mail if you don't want to clutter the net up. I'll summarise
if I get enough replies.

Thanks in advance for any info,

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 02:00:21 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Alan Dean Foster (was Re: Hack Writers - Definition Requested)

mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Major Kano) says:
>  Further more, what does everyone think of Aliens ? For my 3 Kbyte's
>worth, the aliens won too easily, in out and out combat; and the whole
>problem could be solved by uzi style sub-machine guns (lightweight) and
>ultrasonic imaging. Also, a (British) SAS style attack would have been
>more appropriate than virtually announcing their presence the way they
>did. Does the US have an equivalent military force ?  Anyone like to
>comment ? Feel free to e-mail if you don't want to clutter the net up.
>I'll summarise if I get enough replies.

Of course, if you'll recall, the Marine force involved didn't really take
the idea of nasty, nasty aliens very seriously.  You will remember that
they made cracks about "rescuing some colonist girls from their virginity"
in the beginning of the film.  I doubt they had ever encountered any really
vicious combat, and were thus unprepared for what they discovered.

...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 18 Mar 88 06:12:25 GMT
From: kurt@apple.com (Kurt Hasel)
Subject: Alien author, et al

The Alien screenplay was by Dan O'Bannon (Banion?).

He also wrote the B-17 segment from Heavy Metal.
         
Kurt

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 88 23:35:36 GMT
From: da1n+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Beetleguece (sp?) info...

I've heard some scraps of info about a movie of this title coming out
sometime this summer.  Anyone have any concrete info on it?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 00:51:39 GMT
From: finesse@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: Beetleguece (sp?) info...

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>I've heard some scraps of info about a movie of this title coming out
>sometime this summer.  Anyone have any concrete info on it?

I'm your man.

BEETLEJUICE
1988, dir. Tom Burton
starring
Michael Keaton

This film, from the director of PEE-WEE'S BIG ADVENTURE and BATMAN: THE
MOVIE (1989), is being released next month. It's about a people-exorciser
for ghosts if you know what I mean. Keaton plays a ghost contracted to rid
the hauntings of a few spirits of their mortal intruders.

amit

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 15:24:57 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Beetlejuice     (mild spoilers)

 Beetlejuice is a surprisingly enjoyable flick.  The story (somewhat
reminiscent of Thorne Smith's writing) follows a recently deceased young
married couple (Alec Baldwin and Geena Davis) who haven't been dead long
enough to properly follow their 'Manual for the Recently Deceased'.  They
may not leave their house for fear of the netherworld they find outside,
complete with Arrakis-like sandworms.  Ere long, an obnoxious (living)
couple (well played by Jeffrey Jones and Catherine O'Hara) move in, and
immediately begin to wreak havoc with the afterlives of our protagonists.
They also have a teenage daughter (Winona Ryder) who is straight out of
Charles Addams' cartoons.  Due to her morbidity, she may communicate with
the ghosts, who otherwise have trouble making themselves seen or heard.
Consulting their manual, the couple seek help on their situation by going
to a case worker at Spirit Central for advice.  All suicides become
bureaucrats (love it!), and they find little relief after waiting in line
for two months.  However, they have seen ads for a 'bio-exorcist' (he
exorcises the living) named Betelgeuse, (Michael Keaton,) whom the case
worker has warned them about.  He is a ne'er-do-well, and only adds to
their problems.  Now they must rid themselves of him as well as resolve
their situation with the living family and their spiritualist friends.

The film is fast-paced and genuinely funny.  Much better than I'd expected.
It does slow down near the end, and it is also evident that some important
plot-telling moments were edited out of the finale in an attempt to pick it
up.
 I have also heard that there were other post-production changes, including
the original premise that every time the couple leaves their house, the
netherworld is different.  Apparently some found this too confusing, and
the producers dumbed it up.  I'd have preferred it left alone.

The performances overall work, but are not extraordinary.  Robert Goulet
(who has a minor part) must have a portrait showing his aging hidden
away--he looks younger here than he did in Atlantic City.  Michael Keaton
carries himself adequately (a la 1970's Saturday Night Live) in his only
good role since Mr. Mom.

Beetlejuice was credibly directed by Tim Burton (Pee-Wee's Big Adventure).
The score is by Danny Elfman, and is a cross between Danse Macabre and his
work with Oingo Boingo.  I enjoy his work more and more each time I come
across it.  Four classics by Harry Belafonte are featured, including a
>funny< sequence in which some dinner guests (Dick Cavett among them)
become possessed, and find themselves singing and dancing to "Day-O".  The
art direction makes this film worth seeing on a large screen (the sound is
noteworthy as well) and the upscale special effects are very good (though
there are minor flaws).

The film is rated PG which indicates that there is no on-screen splatter or
blood, but I would not advise taking a young child.  There are a few scary
moments, and a lot of disembodied or mutilated characters.  (Such as the
case worker who puffs on a cigarette--and the smoke comes out her throat.)
While they are not gross, a youngster would be likely to get genuinely
frightened.  This should have gotten a PG-13.  Nevertheless, I definitely
recommend this one.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 23:29:19 GMT
From: zardoz@apple.com (Phil Wayne)
Subject: Re: "Gor" movie

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI) writes:
>Well, there appears to be a movie out based on the "Gor" series. Has
>anyone seen it and will admit to it and post a review? I could see that
>this could be done, ummm, "interestingly" if it was done honestly as a
>porno flick, but this appears to be a "straight" or ordinary film.

Really? A movie? Well, with about twenty minutes of plot (one minute or so
from each book is about all they will be able to find, probably) and lots
of sadomasochistic sex, it sounds like it should be fun :-<.

What is the name of this thing -- I want to be sure I miss it.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 10:40:02 GMT
From: bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: "Gor" movie

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA (Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI) writes:
>Well, there appears to be a movie out based on the "Gor" series. Has
>anyone seen it and will admit to it and post a review? I could see that
>this could be done, ummm, "interestingly" if it was done honestly as a
>porno flick, but this appears to be a "straight" or ordinary film.

Have I got news for you.

The film company made two films at the same time.

As well as "Gor" there will soon be "Outlaw of Gor".

Stars are Urbano Barberini as Tarl and Rebecca Feratti as Telena.  Also
staring (it says here) Oliver Reed and Jack Palance.

And No, I haven't seen the film. Anyone going to admit to it?

Also, would people who flame the gor series please get the facts right. The
first Gor book, the one the first film was made of, is a fairly ordinary
and not very well written story of someone being kidnapped and waking up on
a low-tech planet.  The series starts to go downhill by the second book,
and the more offensive stuff appears shortly afterwards.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 7 Mar 88 18:39:35 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: VICE VERSA

				VICE VERSA
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  Father and son trade bodies in what
     seems an unpromising comedy-fantasy but which breathes new
     life into into an old concept.  VICE VERSA compares favorably
     with the Thorne Smith fantasy-comedies of the 1940s.  Judge
     Reinhold's and Fred Savage's acting is very much on target.
     Rating: +2.

     Thorne Smith was the master of the sophisticated supernatural comedy.
Back in the 1920s and 1930s he wrote a series of sophisticated comic novels
including THE PASSIONATE WITCH and NIGHT LIFE OF THE GODS, though his best-
known series were the "Topper" books.  Hollywood 1940s comedy fantasies
including TURNABOUT, I MARRIED A WITCH, and the "Topper" series were based
on his novels.  TURNABOUT involved the comic effects of a man and a woman
who somehow trade minds.  The same idea of variations has been tried in
films with uneven results.  Not too long ago there was a reputedly terrible
film on this theme called LIKE FATHER, LIKE SON in which a father and son
change places.  Dudley Moore played first the father, then the son.  It
appeared to be one more step down in Moore's career, which has been spotty
since the hilarious BEDAZZLED.  Now, perhaps too soon afterwards, another
film has come out on the same theme and this one, I must say, is worthy of
the Thorne Smith tradition.

     Seymour Marshall (played by Judge Reinhold in one of his first adult
roles) is an executive for a large department store who, through a
smuggling slip-up, has come into possession of a magical skull from Tibet.
While caring for his son while his ex-wife is on vacation, he whimsically
wishes to trade places with his son Charlie (played by Fred Savage).  For
once whimsey does make it so.  Now such a plot can be and has been done
well or poorly.  VICE VERSA does it about as well as it can be done.  Dick
Clement and Ian LaFrenais, who produced the script the film as well as
wrote the script, have really creative imaginations for comic situations.
The result is a story that is not just cute but genuinely very funny.  The
film's only real false step is to mix in a cliched subplot with criminals
and chases, but it remains a small part of the plot and even it is resolved
in a novel manner.

     The acting is surprisingly good by both Reinhold and Savage, who play
the father and son (or VICE VERSA) under the direction of Brian Gilbert.
Each has a feel for the mannerisms of the other.  Savage is staid and
dignified with a dominant edge; Reinhold's eleven-year-old boy is sloppy
and explosive with a great feel for physical comedy.  Savage as the father
pretending to be the son finds seventh grade a breeze, but dealing with
seventh grade bullies takes more than just an "enlightened, mature"
approach.  Reinhold's little boy as department store executive, dealing
with what he calls "yin-yangs" and what the credits call "the
backstabbers," has a winning ingenuous quality.  VICE VERSA was a very
pleasant surprise.  Rate it a low +2 on the -2 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 88 00:06:22 GMT
From: mkao@crash.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: Star Wars

Does anyone know if Lucas is going to make any other movies out of the
remaining 6 episodes? I'm a BIG, BIG Star Wars fan and would like to see it
happen.

Also, if anyone has any literature on episodes I-III or VII-IX, I'd love to
read it. I want to know the entire story!

To insure my reception of any replies, please respond via e-mail. Thanks!

Mike Kao
UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.mil
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 16:09:02 GMT
From: drwho@bsu-cs.uucp (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

According to a Lucasfilm representative in Indianapolis at Starbase Indy,
Lucas will being work on the next SW picture near the end of 1989.  It will
be the first part of the first trilogy.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.	             
Muncie, IN  47305			
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 21:02:32 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: "The Thing"/"Who Goes There?"

miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>The Thing From Another World (1951)
> Another classic alien-attack movie. ... I haven't seen the 1982 remake,
> and from what I've heard, I don't really have any great desire to.

I suppose the original was a better movie.  But I always resented it for
completely throwing away John Campbell's marvelous alien menace and
replacing it with a walking carrot.  John Carpenter's remake did an
incredible job of actually showing the shape-changer in action,
"..whip-like ropy tentacles" and all.  It did have an entirely unnecessary
amount of, in Harlan Ellison's words, "Italian food flung all over the
set".  And I liked Campbell's upbeat ending a lot more than Carpenter's
grim finale.  If you can find a copy of Campbell's novella "Who Goes
There?", by all means, read it.  It's in the Ballantine paperback "The Best
of John W.  Campbell", which is probably long out of print.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 18:43:23 GMT
From: davidc@umd5.umd.edu (David Conrad)
Subject: Re: "The Thing"/"Who Goes There?"

by vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt):
> miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>>The Thing From Another World (1951)
> If you can find a copy of Campbell's novella "Who Goes There?", by all
> means, read it.  It's in the Ballantine paperback "The Best of John W.
> Campbell", which is probably long out of print.

"Who Goes There" is also in "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame", Volume 1 or
maybe 2.  I saw Carpenter's film, and I agree that the special effects
during the transformations were a little much, but I thought the movie was
fairly faithful to the book, portraying the 'cold-war' atmosphere where you
can't trust *anybody* fairly believably.

drc

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 15:23:43 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun.uucp (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Re: "The Thing"/"Who Goes There?"

Yeah, I've always wanted to see someone make a movie of the novella, not a
space carrot movie or a splatter film.  Campbell's work had an important
psychological dimension (the claustrophobia, overcrowding, and mistrust)
that both movie versions completely ignored.  Ah well, I guess it's just
too "subtle"...

Hal
UUCP: {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!pomeranz
CS Net: pomeranz@swatsun.swarthmore.edu           
BitNet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!pomeranz@psuvax1.bitnet   

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 31 Mar 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Anthony & Cherryh (3 msgs) &
                           Ellern & Hambly (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 20:29:27 GMT
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro)
Subject: Incarnations of Immortality

Well, I'll probably get flamed for asking, in view of the current
anti-Anthony sentiment flowing, but can anyone send me spoilers on the
latest book in the _Incarnations of Immortality_ series?

I have read the first four.  I liked ON A PALE HORSE the best.  Both the
book and the character were the best.  Next in both aspects was BEARING AN
HOURGLASS, then WEAVING(?) A TANGLED SKEIN, and last WIELDING(?) A RED
SWORD.

As above, I think Death is the best character of the bunch - and I feel he
has the best job.  He can be normal when he wants, has a great sports
car/boat/horse, and even a "fabulous babe," to quote Letterman.

Chronos has a harder time interacting, due to living backwards, but his job
is interesting, and he has the most powerful symbol of office.  Also, the
lonliness isn't as bad as it could be, since Norton likes to wander.  And
if he gets bored, there's always Clotho.

Fate's job is also interesting, and she has it pretty good.  Don't age for
awhile, then when you find a man you like, BANG - take him.  However, I
didn't like the story that much.

Finally, Mars.  I really didn't like the person at all.  The book wasn't
too bad, though was my least favorite.

Me and a friend are trying to figure out what is going to happen in the
final book.  He feels (he admits he can't find any evidence), that Satan
will step down to marry Orb.  Also, he feels that Satan is a 6th
Incarnation, and since good or evil credit goes to an Incarnation based on
how well he does his job, Satan might be getting himself good credit by
doing his job well i.e. being really evil.

Also, he thinks that Gaea is either an ancestor or descendant from one or
more of the other Incarnations.

Finally, for any of you Incarnation fans, along with any spoilers you care
to send, what Incarnation's job would you want, and why?

Email, flames, comments, to:
Richard L. Carreiro
ARPA:   rlcarr@athena.mit.edu
UUCP:   ...!mit-eddie!athena.mit.edu!rlcarr
BITNET: rlcarr%athena.mit.edu@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 01:21:07 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
 >My introduction to C.J. Cherryh was the Chanur books, which I thought were
>quite good.  (They also have a refreshing viewpoint: humans are *not*
>crawling out of the woodwork, nor are they particularly important except
>as far as their existence spells political trouble for the other races in
>the story -- and any other race would have done as well for that.)

   She still hasn't done what I've been waiting to see ever since the
Chanur books started coming out.  Here we have an interstellar, multiracial
culture where the thing people fear the most is a "hunter" ship.  THEY
DON'T HAVE WARSHIPS!!!!!  The Kif and , o shoot, that other race, the one
that seemed to be allied with the Hani, had the hunter ships, but they seem
to be about the size of the medium size merchanters in "Downbelow Station"
and "Merchanter's Luck".  They don't seem to be built to help compensate
for G forces or anything, and there is only a rumour of ever attacking a
planet from orbit.  One of these days a Carrier is going to show up and
those poor folks are going to freak out completely.

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 20:52:57 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>   She still hasn't done what I've been waiting to see ever since the
>Chanur books started coming out.  Here we have an interstellar,
>multiracial culture where the thing people fear the most is a "hunter"
>ship.  THEY DON'T HAVE WARSHIPS!!!!!  The Kif and , o shoot, that other
>race, the one that seemed to be allied with the Hani, had the hunter
>ships, but they seem to be about the size of the medium size merchanters
>in "Downbelow Station" and "Merchanter's Luck".  They don't seem to be
>built to help compensate for G forces or anything, and there is only a
>rumour of ever attacking a planet from orbit.  One of these days a Carrier
>is going to show up and those poor folks are going to freak out
>completely.

This must be more or less intentional, since Cherryh has dealt with attack
from orbit, battleships, etc - see the "Faded Sun" series.  Perhaps it's
that Cherryh like to write about people, and the hunter ships make a
managable and flexible threat image, whereas fleets and mass warfare tend
to be useful more for general background and context change.

George Robbins - now
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 21:56:00 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

gareth@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Gareth Husk) writes:
> farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>>Cherryh deliberately chooses to write about aliens who are close to human
>>in outlook...
>
> I agree that Cherryh's aliens are superior to the general run of aliens.
> However I would say that she has included some very tough fore-ground
> aliens in her writing, whose behaviour is pretty far from human.

It would be well to point out that there is a shift in Cherryh's aliens as
time goes on.  In her earlier books (up thru the "Faded Sun") the aliens
despite all protests are more human than alien in terms of "personality".
The best example of this perhaps is in "Hunter of Worlds" where you have
the four classes of beings, predators, omnivores, grazers and burrowers
acting pretty much like people wearing animal costumes.

In later books, there seems to be a effort to make some of the aliens
"human" and some "alien".  In this sense, the Hani are "human" albeit with
a different cultural background, great effort goes into making the Kif as
"non-human" as possible while still capable of interacting with "humans" on
an inter-personal basis.  The methane breathers are thrown in for
verisimilitude, however they serve mainly as background, with little
meaningful interaction.

None of this is particularly bad, as it can be argued that the main point
of aliens in science fiction is provide contrast so that we can better
understand what humanity is about.  Cherryh is just learning to use the
tool better as time goes along.

Perhaps it's time to reread Chanur, now that it's all said and done.  I've
always felt that the "Faded Sun" series was Cherryh's best, however having
recently had occasion to reread the her first 9 books, they seem to be
roughly equal, with the exception of "Hestia", which seems to be either an
anachronism or a left over Novella.

George Robbins
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 88 06:14:29 GMT
From: rmtodd@uokmax.uucp (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Non-Doc Smith Lensman books

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>A few books have been written by other authors.  Specifically, there
>exists a story by an author whose name I have forgotten, called "New
>Lensman"; 

William B. Ellern.  He was supposedly working on three stories in the
Lensman universe; "Triplanetary Agent", "New Lensman", and "Legion of the
Gray Lensman".  I've only seen the first two in print, and then only
serialized in the back of old Perry Rhodan books.  (Yes, I read Perry
Rhodan.  I like them.  Go ahead and flame my lack of taste, I don't care.)
(BTW, Forrest Ackerman put all sorts of interesting stories in the back of
those books, including COSMOS, probably the first-ever shared-world story,
with Doc Smith and a lot of other Golden Age writers writing sections of
the novel.  But I digress.)  I remember hearing somewhere that William
Ellern's stories did come out in England, but I don't know this for myself.

>supposedly updates the Lensman universe to "modern" physics.  

Don't recall anything about updating the physics, just using the same Doc
Smith pseudo-physics in new ways (like the inertialless travel tunnels
under Copernicus Base) and focusing in on other characters besides Samms,
Kinnison, et al.  Both New Lensman and Triplanetary Agent focus on one
agent of Triplanetary Service, Larry McQueen (who becomes a Lensman in "New
Lensman").  "New Lensman" is roughly contemporaneous with First Lensman
(the main event near the end of "New Lensman" is the attack of the Black
Fleet on the Hill).

>available are three (last I checked) books by David Kyle, about the other
>Second Stage Lensmen: The Dragon Lensman, Lensman from Rigel ,Z-Lensman
>I've read *those*: Lensman "purists" should avoid them.  Kyle takes some
>rather grave liberties with the canon;

No, he takes *lots* of grave liberties with the canon :-).  That's the nice
thing about Ellern's stuff; since it doesn't deal much with the major
characters, it can't get them drastically wrong.  Ellern's stories feel as
if they could fit right in to Smith's universe.  Kyle's stories are kinda
interesting, but they aren't in Doc Smith's universe, despite what he may
have intended.

>missed a few important points concerning *why* things were as they were.
>The changes in question were *not* scientific in nature.  

Well, there were some attempts to fit in more recent scientific
developments (I recall attempts to use black holes as weapons in Lensman
from Rigel), but the main things that were bothersome was how he invented
all sorts of other things out of whole cloth with little or no
justification in the original Smith novels.  I'd kind of like to see your
list of what you didn't like about Kyle's attempts at Lensman novels. (Go
ahead and mail it to me if you don't want to post it; currently mail works
into uokmax but not out of it.)

Richard Todd
820 Annie Court
Norman OK 73069
rmtodd@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
{cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 15:59:55 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Silicon Mage Silliness

Barbara Hambly makes it fairly clear in her acknowledgements that she went
elsewhere for technical advice about things computerish.  She didn't go far
enough.

The technical silliness is bad enough.  I'd be more willing to believe that
the state of the art (perhaps bumped a few years -- there aren't that many
Cray-3's around yet -- although in every non-computer respect the time
seems clearly to be the present) might be equal to programming one's entire
personality into a computer (*programming*) than to believe the other
implicit premise: that said silicon mage isn't going to have fatal hardware
and/or software failures within days.

This isn't your cliched computer in the bowels of the research center,
imbued with intelligence and tended twenty-four hours a day by technicians
or robots or what have you.  This is someone stealing a supercomputer,
unpacking it in a handy hidden dungeon somewhere, programming himself into
it and turning on the power.  A great deal of attention is paid to where
the electricity is going to come from, but I'm much more curious to know
how long the refrigeration will keep running.

Worse is the protagonist's constant use of computerese terms that just
don't ring true: "I think in subroutines" instead of "let's do one thing at
a time", for example.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 04:31:11 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Silicon Mage

To tell the truth, I didn't care all that much for either Silent Tower or
for Silicon Mage -- at least not compared to other things that she has
done.  As far as the ending is concerned:

The raising of Caris didn't bother me.  I suppose I didn't think about it
that much.  However, you are right, if one thinks about.  The ability to
raise the dead is a big impact sort of thing; if it can be done it will be
done unless there are horridly good reasons for not doing it.

I wasn't much taken with the way Caris got his girl.  Rulers mostly aren't
too big on generous actions that impugn their honor, particulary ones that
are on the nasty side.  Caesar's wife, and all that.

Re the Deus ex Machina saving of Antryg -- well, you certainly can't
complain that the machinery wasn't exhibited beforehand.  It isn't very
good machinery though -- the existence of worlds with interdimensional
technology has a lot of implications.  I think that you are right -- that
the ending would have been much stronger if she had left everyone dead.

Re powers: My recollection is that neither have power on Earth, other than
the power to traverse the void.

Re someone elses comment about the computer running unmaintained: This
doesn't bother me -- *this* computer can use magic to maintain itself.
[It's not well known outside the computer industry, but magic is used for
creating and maintaining computer software.  There was a hushed up scandal
at one of the big software houses when the VP of software was caught
sacrificing MIS directors during full moons.]

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 22:10:30 GMT
From: c60c-5aa@web5e.berkeley.edu
Subject: Silicon Mage

SPOILER WARNING: I want to discuss the ending of Hambly's _Silicon Mage_,
so don't read this if you don't want to hear about it.

I was disappointed.  I enjoyed the bulk of the book far more than I had
_Silent Tower_, but the ending fell really flat for me.  Caris nobly
sacrifices himself for his companions.  Antryg nobly sacrifices himself
*and Joanna* for Caris (by raising him after he's been dead for an awfully
long time...when we've never had any indication that mages can do this).
Caris gets his girl (even though she's married to someone else).  And then,
after a really well-written farewell scene between Joanna and Antryg,
Antryg drinks the bitter cup to avoid his even worse death at the hands of
the Witchfinders, Joanna returns to Earth, and...

SOMEONE RESCUES HIM!

I generally like happy endings, and I was fond of Antryg, but I couldn't
bring myself to be happy about this one.  Especially in conjunction with
the raising of Caris.  I stopped believing in what was happening.

Why did Antryg lose his powers?  Hadn't he and Suraklin had power on Earth
before?  It seemed like an attempt to say "yes, there has been a real
sacrifice here, even though everyone's living happily ever after", and
distorting the plot to do so.

It reminded me far too much of the end of _Wandering Fire_.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 01:07:22 GMT
From: tom@iconsys.uucp (Tom Kimpton)
Subject: Re: Silicon Mage

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>c60c-5aa@web5e.berkeley.edu.UUCP () writes:
>Re powers: My recollection is that neither have power on Earth, other than
>the power to traverse the void.

Unless I misremember, the big clue for Joanna that Caris' grandfather (I
forget his name) was not quite on the up and up was that the mage mark that
he found on EARTH was on a level with his eyes.  So they could at least set
and detect mage marks on earth.

Tom Kimpton
Icon International, Inc.    
Orem, Utah 84058	    
(801) 225-6888
{ihnp4,uunet}!iconsys!tom
{ihnp4,psivax}!nrcvax!nrc-ut!iconsys!tom
ARPANET: icon%byuadam.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
BITNET: icon%byuadam.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 17:51:00 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Silicon Mage

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>[It's not well known outside the computer industry, but magic is used for
>creating and maintaining computer software.  There was a hushed up scandal
>at one of the big software houses when the VP of software was caught
>sacrificing MIS directors during full moons.]

What a wonderful idea!  I'll have to try that.

Oh, on Silicon Mage: I vacillated on whether to pick it up, decided not to.
There was just too much uninspired silliness in the first book.  If you're
going to write about something, you have to know at least as much as your
intended audience.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 31 Mar 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:

		     Books - Eddings (4 msgs) & Lem &
                             Walter Jon Williams (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 06:36:54 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: New Malloreon Odds (SPOILER)

Okay, all you Eddings junkies.  King of the Murgos is out, and it's time
for payoffs and new odds.

Paid off:

   Those who bet that the two stones were originally one, and that the two
prophecies were originally one.  Those who bet that Sadi was the Man Who is
No Man.  Those who bet that Belgarion would not be the child of light in
the end.

Collected:

   Those who bet either that the stones or the prophecies would be
reunited.  Those who bet that Belgarion was no longer the Child of Light.
Those who bet that Eriond, nee Errand, and Zandramas would meet in
contention as rivals in godhood.

Missed by all:
   The King of the Murgos was Kheldar's illegitimate half brother
   That Zandramas is a woman
   That Zandramas will not be the Child of Dark at the end.
   That magic is shaping up as a component of the series.
   That the orb pre existed Aldur's fiddling with it.

New bets and revised old odds:

   Polgara bites the big one: 6-1 against.  This is a drop in odds, based
on possibilities suggested in Salmissra's statements.  There is a vague
hint there Zandramas and Polgara are due to have it out.

   Polgara has a big secret that she is worried about that is 
going to important to the story: 3-2 for.

   Polgara knows Zandramas: 3-1 for.

   Zandramas is Polhedra:  200-1 against
             a Wacite Arend: 100-1 against

   Liselle is "The Woman Who Watches" : 3-2 for
	           "The Huntress" : 3-1 against
   Prala is   "The Huntress" : 10-1 against

   Kal Zakath is "The Empty One":  2-1 against
   Urgrit is "The Empty One": 25-1 against
   Zandramas is the Sorceress of Darshiva: 6-1 for.
   Belgarion and company are on the wrong side!: 20-1 against

Oh, yes, you ask, how was the book.  Twas a good read.  Like the TGOTW it
is a big book, a fair bit longer than the volumes of the Belgariad, with a
lot of action.  This is a much more complicated series than the Belgariad
- -- we knew, almost from the beginning, that Garion was the Rivan King and
that he was going to beat Torak.  This time around we are much more in the
dark.  We don't for sure who the Child of Light and the Child of Dark will
end up being, nor the nature of the confrontation.  We have strong hints
that magic (ala the Morindrim) was not just a gratuitous bit of extra
action to pad out the Belgariad.  In fact, it begins to look like the
Belgariad was one big exercise in foreshadowing for the Malloreon.

One of things that is intriguing about the cycle, but particularly this
series is that the participants are walking through assigned roles, know
they are walking through assigned roles, but don't quite know what the
roles are.  It is an effect reminiscent of time travel stories in which
people know in advance that certain things are going to happen.  May you
never receive the kiss of Salmissra.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 88 05:46:47 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: More on the Malloreon

   In the latest odds posting, I said that the odds on Polgara's being the
one who dies had dropped.  The relevant passage is Salmissra's comment to
Polgara, "I do not think that I will see you again, Polgara.  I think that
Zandramas is more powerful than you and that she will destroy you."

   One of the things that seems odd about the Malloreon series is that the
principals don't seem to ask what seem like obvious questions.  This scene
is a very good example.  Salmissra obviously knows a lot about what is
going on -- she knows who Zandramas is, and so on.  Polgara doesn't make
any effort to find out what Salmissra knows.  We may grant that Polgara is
some pre-emptory and "doesn't listen too good" but even so...  Similarly,
Eriond does all sorts of odd things, and nobody asks why.  Belgarath even
makes a reference to this at one point, saying that he means to have a talk
with Eriond, but somehow keeps getting distracted.  This might be a flaw in
the writing, or it might be deliberate.

   One does get the impression that the machinery of the two prophecies is
getting creaky, and not working too well.  The prophecy is intervening more
frequently and more directly.  It is almost as though the two prophecies
were joint playrights, and they've scrapped the original production, and
are doing a hurried rewrite, and the lines still aren't set quite right.
Again, this might be a flaw in the writing or it might be deliberate.  We
have to wait and see.

   The bit about the author says "The field of fantasy has always been of
interest to him, however, and he turned to The Belgariad in an effort to
develop certain technical and philosophical ideas concerning that genre."
Now, the Belgariad is actually fairly simple.  It can be summarized as,
"Young man from obscure background grows up to become the foreordained
champion of good and defeats the champion of evil.  The final battle turns
on a moral decision, rather than force of arms.  Along the way a lot of
desperate adventures happen to a band of companions."  This is a standard
plot of epic fantasy; one is left with a feeling of "Nice story.  But where
are those technical and philosophical ideas that we were promised."

   The Malloreon, on the other hand, does seem to be much more complex,
both in terms of action, and in terms of philosophical underpinnings.  One
of the marks of this is that we know a lot less about what is going on.  At
the end of the first book of The Belgariad it wasn't too hard to figure out
that Belgarion was going to become the Rivan king and go fight Torak.  The
conflict, and the cast of characters were straightforward.  After two books
of the Malloreon, we still don't know who the principals in the final
confrontation are, nor the nature of the confrontation.  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 05:25:09 GMT
From: chen@gt-stratus.uucp (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: More on the Malloreon

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>   The bit about the author says "The field of fantasy has always been of
>interest to him, however, and he turned to The Belgariad in an effort to
>develop certain technical and philosophical ideas concerning that genre."
>Now, the Belgariad is actually fairly simple.  It can be summarized as,
>"Young man from obscure background grows up to become the foreordained
>champion of good and defeats the champion of evil.  The final battle turns
>on a moral decision, rather than force of arms.  Along the way a lot of
>desperate adventures happen to a band of companions."  This is a standard
>plot of epic fantasy; one is left with a feeling of "Nice story.  But
>where are those technical and philosophical ideas that we were promised."

You're looking at the plot.  I think the experiment he did was with/on the
characters and the storytelling itself.

In the Belgeriad, Eddings tells an epic story (the killing of a god and
saving the universe) without using an epic feel.  If anything the feel of
the story is the total opposite.  You had people grumbling about the
weather (not because it was anything horrible like a killer blizzard, but
just because it stunk and they didn't like it), dealing with breakfast,
putting on boots, squabbling, etc.  Although it had a plot whose scope
rivals that of most epics (like the Lord of the Rings) the feel of the
story was entirely different --- no sense of an epic sweep or magical,
fantastic atmosphere or grand tapestry.  Zelazny is one of the few writers
who also does this type of thing (and boy, he does a good job of it).  The
Belgeriad feels more like Faldor's farm than an epic.  Yet it is an epic.

Plus the characters were all one-dimensional stereotypes.  Yet he made them
come alive, if not believable.

One of my favorite parts of the Belgeriad is in the last book when
Belgarion has to marry Ce'Nedra and he's scared stiff and nervous as hell.
Eddings had me really feeling for Belgarion.  Then I sit back and think,
"Wait a minute.  Here's a guy who's just knocked off a god, is King of Riva
and Overlord of the West, is one of the most powerful sorcerers around
(probably in the top 3), controls the most powerful artifact in the known
world, is probably immortal to boot and I'm here feeling *sorry* for him
???"

Ray Chen
chen@stratus

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 18:46:57 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: More on the Malloreon

chen@stratus.UUCP (Ray Chen) writes:
>g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
[... re my discussion of the plot of the Belgariad being a classic fantasy
epic plot.]
>You're looking at the plot.  I think the experiment he did was with/on the
>characters and the storytelling itself.
>
>In the Belgeriad, Eddings tells an epic story (the killing of a god and
>saving the universe) without using an epic feel.  If anything the feel of
>the story is the total opposite.  You had people grumbling about the
>weather (not because it was anything horrible like a killer blizzard, but
>just because it stunk and they didn't like it), dealing with breakfast,
>putting on boots, squabbling, etc.  Although it had a plot whose scope
>rivals that of most epics (like the Lord of the Rings) the feel of the
>story was entirely different --- no sense of an epic sweep or magical,
>fantastic atmosphere or grand tapestry.  Zelazny is one of the few writers
>who also does this type of thing (and boy, he does a good job of it).  The
>Belgeriad feels more like Faldor's farm than an epic.  Yet it is an epic.

   This is a very good point.  It may also be one of the things that makes
the series popular -- people like the effect without realizing that the
story is, so to speak, homey.  When you think about it, Eddings pulled this
off very well.  One of the tricks that he used was to avoid as much as
possible putting his characters on a formal public stage -- and when they
were (as in the court scenes) the concentration was on the personal
reactions of the characters.

>Plus the characters were all one-dimensional stereotypes.  Yet he made
>them come alive, if not believable.

   I wonder about this; the principle characters are nominally stereotypes,
the nimble thief, the immortal guardian sorceror, and so on.  Yet they are
all real people -- you get pieces of their backgrounds, their emotional
reactions, the way they think, and so on.  When I think about it, the
characterization is much less one dimensional than it is usually assumed.
It may be that Eddings is doing something like this: The epic fantasy
demands stereotyped characters filling specified roles; fine, now let's
take real people who would naturally fit those roles and right about them.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 00:53:42 GMT
From: choo-young-il@cs.yale.edu (Young-il Choo)
Subject: A Stanislaw Lem Fan Replies

RJFISCH@sunset.BITNET writes:
> Are there any fans of Stanislaw Lem out there? 

Yes, there are.  Now that that's settled, to get some discussion going.

I highly recommend Lem's latest work _Fiasco_ (hardback, HBJ).

For all those seeking a science fiction with hard science, you will not be
disappointed.  Lem extrapolates, not violates, our current scientific
understanding.  He is one author who can use terminology from gravitational
and quantum physics and not make a scientist (I was going to write
"physicist", but since I'm a computer scientist, I'll speak for myself)
wince.

The plot is relatively simple, but in the Lem style, there is plenty of
philosophical discussions along the way and things are never quite as they
appear.

If I were to categorize Lem's (fiction) writings into three:

 comedy/fables:  Ijon Tichy, Pilot Pirx, Cyberiad, etc.
 serious:  Solaris, The Chain of Chance, His Master's Voice, 
           The Investigation.
 surreal:  the reviews of imaginary books, eg Golem IV.

_Fiasco_ is the most enjoyable of the serious works.  It has elements of
"classical" science fiction (interstellar spaceship, black holes, alien
life), while maintaining the sense of mystery and wonder of the unknown.

Yes, I guess I'm a fan.

Young-il Choo
Yale Computer Science
choo-young-il@yale.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 88 13:46:01 GMT
From: d85-per@nada.kth.se (Per Hammarlund)
Subject: Walter Jon Williams

What has happened to Walter Jon Williams?

Have anybody else noticed the change in his work? I mean Hardwired, Voice
of the Whirlwind vs. The Crown Jewels. In Hardwired and Voice of the
Whirlwind there is real action but in The Crown Jewels there is a kind of
*fumble* action reminding me of PG Wodehouse.

Has he made any comments on this change himself in SF-magazines?

I think Hardwired and Voice of the Whirlwind are more complete books
plot-wise than is The Crown Jewels. The latter has a fair number of loose
threads. (What will happen to Tvi?)

Per Hammarlund
d85-per@nada.kth.se

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 19:57:33 GMT
From: Devin_E_Ben-Hur@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Walter Jon Williams

Per Hammerlund writes:
> What has happened to Walter Jon Williams...  In The Crown Jewels there is
> a kind of *fumble* action...  [more complaints that TCJ isn't a Hardwired
> clone]

TCJ was a *comedy* A joke, you see.  It was supposed to be FUNNY, get it?

Why do you insist that an author be forever locked into whatever style and
tone you first enjoyed from them?  TCJ was written and published between
HardWired and Voice of the Whirlwind.  Williams was having fun,
experimenting.  I approve.

ucbvax!sun!portal!devin.e.ben-hur%cupertino.pcc

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 16:29:32 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: Walter Jon Williams

d85-per@nada.kth.se (Per Hammarlund) writes:
>What has happened to Walter Jon Williams?
>
>Have anybody else noticed the change in his work? I mean Hardwired,
>Voice of the Whirlwind vs. The Crown Jewels. 

As I recall, _The Crown Jewels_ was written before _Hardwired_, so the
change is the other way around.  Probably the recent release was to take
advantage of the cyberpunk market.

Also, the "Other Books" page in WJW's books lists _The Crown Jewels_
separately as "Divertimenti" or some such, indicating that WJW is at least
aware that it is substantially different from his other work.  Let's just
hope he doesn't waste a lot of time on such divertisements.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 20:48:17 GMT
From: brucec@orca.tek.com (Bruce Cohen)
Subject: Re: Walter Jon Williams

d85-per@nada.kth.se (Per Hammarlund) writes:
>What has happened to Walter Jon Williams?
>
>Have anybody else noticed the change in his work? I mean Hardwired, Voice
>of the Whirlwind vs. The Crown Jewels. In Hardwired and Voice of the
>Whirlwind there is real action but in The Crown Jewels there is a kind of
>*fumble* action reminding me of PG Wodehouse.
>
>Has he made any comments on this change himself in SF-magazines?

I haven't seen any comments he has made himself, but I thought it was
obvious from the books of his I have read that he has not yet found his own
voice, but is trying out other people's styles to see what fits.  Consider
the following list:

    "Knight Moves"  - "This Immortal",  Zelazny

    "Hardwired"              \
                              } - "Neuromancer", Gibson 
    "Voice of the Whirlwind" /    (or other cyberpunk)

    "The Crown Jewels" - "Masque World", Panshin 
                            (or other "Villiers" series book)

Comparing the Williams books to the authors he is emulating, I think he is
doing a damn fine job of catching the spirit without slavishly copying.  I
haven't read "Ambassador of Progress", so I can't say if it fits in this
mold as well.  Are there any other books I've missed?

By the way, I enjoyed "The Crown Jewels" a great deal.  I liked the
"Villiers" stories, and was very sorry when "The Universal Pantograph" was
lost in the shuffle by Ace (if that is really what happened to it).

Bruce Cohen
Tektronix Inc.
M/S 61-028
P.O. Box 1000
Wilsonville, OR  97070
{the real world}...!tektronix!ruby!brucec
brucec@ruby.TEK.COM

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 88 01:00:18 EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #108
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 1 Apr 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:

			Administrivia - LAST ISSUE,
                        Miscellaneous - The Big Con & UFO's

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Apr 88 08:59:51 EST
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
Subject: LAST ISSUE

Well folks, as Ralph Kramden has often said: "I've got a BIIIIIIIG MOUTH!!"
It seems that in the last year, there has been so much media attention in
magazines like Omni, Locus, IEEE Potentials, ACM Communications, Time,
Newsweek and others about SF-LOVERS, that it has attracted the attention of
"The Powers that Be" in Washington.

I spent two weeks recently in Washington, D.C. in conference with William
Proxmire and several House and Senate committees.  I have been questioned,
in length, about SF-LOVERS and the use of the computer networks.  I have
had meetings with the President of Rutgers University, Ed Bloustein.  In
short, it has been determined that SF-LOVERS Digest has, for the years of
it's existence, been grossly misusing public funds.  There are criminal
actions pending now against me (and all the prior moderators) for this
misuse and other actions are contemplated for copyright infringements,
theft of services (using the Rutgers computers for private gain), and tax
invasion (the IRS claims that even though the digest generates no income it
is still a business and must file an Income Tax form).

In short, this will be the *LAST* issue of SF-LOVERS.  After this issue I
am, under orders from the U.S. District Court in New York, folding the
digest and deleting all archives and files pertaining to the digest in my
possession.  Enjoy this last issue and remember fondly the days of
SF-LOVERS.  Some day, we may return.  Until then, save your back issues and
relish them, they may be worth something someday.

Saul Jaffe
Ex-Moderator SF-LOVERS Digest
sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu (address goes away April 1, 1988)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Apr 88 08:38:47 EST
From: amq@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Amqueue)
Subject: The Big Con

Are you sick and tired of those Big Cons?
Do you feel like you are being Conned?
Do you like to show off your bodies - I mean costumes?

Well, have WE got a CON for YOU!!!

Do you *like* dealer rooms that are *only* filled with BOOKS?
Do you think MOVIES are a waste of time? 
Do you think half naked barbarians and their feathered costumes and
fur-clad girls are DisGusting?

WE DON'T WANT YOU!!!! Stop Reading this NOW!!!

Now that we have removed the chaff, I shall get on with the announcement.

We are a small committee, with BIG ideas. Want to help? 
We are a poor committee, without the backing to get stupendous hotels. 
We are an honest committee (can't you tell?). 

So far, we have:

   Isaac Asimov will speak on whatever topic the Nearest 
      Nubile Female suggests - if we can pay his fee. 

   Jack Chalker for our Author Guest of Honor -
      if we can pay his fee.  (Which may well be the Nearest Nubile 
      Person)

    Lissanne Lake has not only agreed to be our Not-Yet-Published
       Artist GOH, but has offered to run the entire art show -
       providing we pay everything. 

    And Wombat will be running the Art Auction. (He just laughed
       maliciously when we asked him what he wanted for it... )

So, this con will only occur if we get LOTS of pre-reg. This is what else
we will give you if we actually manage to get the con going:

Hall Costume Contest: Starting 10pm Friday Night, and ending Noon Sunday,
our Roving Costume Judges will be watching YOU!  Points given for most
startling, best use of sequins, closeness to original in the case of a
reproduction, medieval (documentation required - preferably a picture or
book reference. And we will have books there to check!), and most creative
use of invisible fabric.  Some judges may have cameras in order to record
your costume for the judging. Then, on Sunday, sometime between 2 and 3
(after all, we have to give them time to make up their mind), they will
announce the winners in the following categories: Most Likely to Fall Off;
Best Reproduction; Cutest; Funniest; Most Sequins; Best Medieval; and any
others that the judges come up with.  (After all, it is our first con and
the judges will need some leeway on deciding awards.)

Saturday night there will be a Costume Ball. This is not like the Regency
Balls that Other Cons are famous for; we would like to have a ReaL BaNd and
not just records. Again, this depends on how much money we get beforehand.

Roommate Matching: we have seen this service at Origins, The Gaming Con.
Basically, you tell us if you want to share a room but don't have anyone to
share with, and we will match people up. This will be to the hotel's
maximum of 4 to a room. If you have someone you want to share with, send in
your registrations together. Those who use this service will have to arrive
when con registration is open, as you will have to register with us first
so we can give you the appropriate forms to give to the hotel. Please be
sure to specify partier or sleeper, and whether you have a preference as to
the gender of your roommates.

Light Show: Coherent Central has agreed to produce a laser light show,
complete with music and a dance show by the UltraViolet Disaster. More on
this as we find out when they can get there and such. Hopefully it will run
for as much of the con as we can convince them to do. Thin blondes are
especially encouraged to attend, especially those with their own interests
and technical knowledge.

Con Suite: a complete con suite with bubble blowing, music, veggies, dip,
junk food, and lots of other stuff. Everyone Is Welcome To Bring Food For
This!!!!! Please, no magic brownies or Electric Lemonade - we may get
inspected. Monetary Donations Direct to the Con Chair at runtime can
influence her/his choice of food on the daily food runs.  Most of it we
will be trying for in bulk ahead of time. Please note food preferences on
the registration sheet - if we get enough requests for something, we will
try to get it. You are also welcome to bring music, but we can offer no
guarding services or liability for the tapes/cd's that show up. Read as:
don't leave anything you really care about alone in the Con Suite.

Massage/Back Rub room: Hopefully a convention-long party, with relaxing
music and lighting, and hopefully staffed by willing masseu{r,s}s at all
times. Again, bring any music you want. Anyone able to prove they have
worked for more than 3 hours for the convention will be given priority.

We will be trying to get a lockout on mundanes, so that we can take over
the pool facilities. Failing that, we will try to get the pool after hours.
This requires that we provide a Red Cross Certified Life Guard - if you
have such and are willing to work, let us know!!! This will be Night Duty.
BE AWARE!  and don't volunteer unless you are sure you can BE ALERT!

There will be a 24hour film/video program arranged by UseNet Personality
Mark Leeper, who has generously offered to show things from his private
collection. These will include such unknown classics as ...  um, and ...
well, they really are unknown, I don't know what they will be. He is being
rather secretive.

There will be a rather extensive book review panel by another UseNet
Personality, Evelyn Leeper. Joining her will be Harlan Ellison, who will
speak on the advantages of Television Science Fiction.

And our Very Own Charles Mcgrew will be running a Midnight Awful Prose
Contest. (sometimes, but *only* sometimes, the Big Cons have decent ideas.)

Other Basic Programming: GOH speech, both author and artist. Readings by
any other authors that show up. Talks on space, computing, magazines, and
publishing by whoever we can get; L5 has a large base in our state, and we
are also near numerous publishing houses. Large nearby Universities are
always willing to have speakers show up at virtually anything. Art Auction.
Plus, a sign up board and space for spontaneous panels: if you have a
topic, announce it at least 12 hours in advance and see how many people you
get. We are not likely to be able to get many function rooms for this, so
there will be competition.  Live RPG, sponsored by whoever asks first. 24
hour gaming run by The Professor, Gary Tweitman. If we can, we will have
computers to play computer games on.

Now that we have told you this, let us get the nitty gritty down.

Name: Alternacon I 
Date for the con: January 27-29, 1989 
Place: The convention is going to be split between 2 hotels, with a nearby
   overflow hotel. The Howard Johnson's and Holiday Inn on Stelton Road in
   South Plainfield, New Jersey will be the main hotels, with Programming
   split between them. The overflow hotel will be The Franklin Inn across
   the street. All of these are one and two story buildings, so there will
   be no trouble with elevators.  Nearby businesses of interest: Roy
   Rogers, Wendy's, Burger King, Red Lobster, B.J. Beri's (Italian food),
   Paperback Booksellers, Black Forest Deli, The Healthy Carrot, Kmart,
   Pathmark (a food supermarket).  The last 5 are in a mall, everything is
   within 2 blocks walking distance
 
Registration will start at noon Friday, and end 2pm on Saturday. There will
be no registrations sold on Sunday. All New Jersey laws regarding weapons
and alcohol will be enforced: if we catch you, we get rid of you. What you
choose to do on our (temporary) property is OUR BUSINESS!  Please don't eat
the hotel. We would like to do this annually.

If we know 30 days in advance, we will run shuttles to the nearest train
stations. Information and directions will be sent out with registration
confirmation packets. We would like to arrange to pick up as many people at
a time as possible.

Since we are all very new at this, please bear with us.  I will post a list
of the committee and positions that are still open in a few weeks if there
is enough interest from the net.  I will take email requests for more info
if they include snailmail addresses to mail it to you. I am also willing to
put out an online version of the progress reports.

Anne Marie Quint (amq)
ComputerLand Liaison
(practically everywhere)!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!amq
amq@elbereth.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 88 10:52:25 EST
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
Subject: UFO's

UFO's are back in the news and it is high time we took a serious look at
this phenomenon.  Up until now, the entire subject of flying saucers has
been mostly associated with kooks and oddballs.  Frequently, in fact,
observers will admit to being a member of both groups.  Still, persistent
sightings by responsible individuals have caused the Air Force and the
scientific community to re-examine a once skeptical attitude, and the sum
of 2.5 million dollars has now been allocated for a comprehensive study of
the phenomenon.   The Air Force plans to re-investigate all of its
previously closed cases and re-interview all the witnesses.  Even those
sighting that were once definitely attributed to weather balloons are being
re-opened. 

All UFO's may not prove to be of extra-terrestrial origins.  But, experts do
agree that any glowing cigar-shaped aircraft capable of rising straight up
at twelve thousand miles per second would require the kind of maintenance
and equipment not available on Earth.  If these objects are indeed from
another planet, then the civilization that designed them must be millions
of years more advanced than our own. 

Dr. Brackish Menzies, who works at the Mount Wilson Observatory (or else is
under observation at the Mount Wilson Hospital, the letter isn't clear)
claims that travellers moving close to the speed of light would require
many millions of years to get here, even from the nearest solar system.
(Judging from the shows on Broadway, the trip is hardly worth it :-)
In his letter, he goes on to site a great deal of physics that proves that
travel at faster than light speeds is impossible and, in fact, not
desirable.  Since there has been a great deal of discussion in this group
about FTL travel, I will not repeat it here.

Interestingly, I was reading recently that according to modern astronomers,
space is actually finite.  (This is a very comforting thought since I can
never remember where I put things :-)  The key factor in thinking about the
universe, however, is that it is expanding like a balloon and just like a
balloon, someday it will burst apart and we will all disappear.  

The most frequently asked question about UFO's is: If saucers come from
outer space, why have their pilots not attempted to make contact with us
instead of hovering mysteriously over deserted areas.  While some claim
that they have been contacted by UFO's one theory that has been propounded
is that for creatures from another solar system, "hovering" may be a
socially acceptable mode of relating.  It may indeed be considered
pleasurable or a form of greeting.  (I myself once hovered over an eighteen
year-old actress  for six months and had the best time of my life-).  It
should also be recalled that when we talk of life on other planets we are
frequently talking about amino acids which, according to micro-biologists,
are never very gregarious.

Most people tend to think of UFO's as a modern problem, but could they be a
phenomenon that man has been aware of for centuries?  Certain scholars and
authors such as Eric Von Daniken have proposed that UFO's were known and
seen in ancient times.  Von Daniken has written that UFO's are even
mentioned in the Bible.  He writes: 

   "...there is a passage in the Book of Leviticus that reads, 'And a great
   and silver ball appeared over the Assyrian armies, and in all of
   Babylonia there was a wailing and gnashing of teeth.'"

The question is was this passage that Von Daniken cited related to other
sitings related to us by other authors?  Are there other clues to the
existence of extra-terrestrials hidden in other sources? There is a passage
in a dialog by Plutarch that states:

   "Two blue objects did appear suddenly in the heavens and did circle
   midtown Athens, hovering over the baths and causing several of our
   wisest statesmen to run screaming from the place"

And, again, were those objects similar to what was described in a recently
discovered part of Chaucer's Tales:

   "A lauch lauched he; wer richt plised to weet a wilde mon frum noon;
   whilst a red balle owr haads swam aboone."

This last account was apparently taken by medieval clergy as an omen that
the world was to come to an end and it was suppressed from the manuscript
written by Chaucer.

Finally, there is the passage in the great works of Sigmund Freud which
reads:

   "En route home from a patients home, I was crossing a meadow, when I
   chanced to look up and saw three fiery balls of different colors appear
   in the sky.  They descended at great speed and began chasing me as I
   attempted to run home.  I wasn't more than a hundred yards from my door
   when they grabbed me and pulled me into a silver cylindrical object,
   shaped roughly like a male penis that rose from the ground behind my
   house.  They attempted to speak with me for several hours but, since
   they could not speak German, we could not converse very well.  All I
   could make out was that their names were Iid, Iago, and Soopraiago and
   that they were from a place called 'Mynd'."

As a general rule, careful on-the-scene investigations disclose that most
"unidentified" flying objects are quite ordinary phenomena such as weather
balloons, meteorites, satellites, and even once a man named Samuel
Moskowitz who blew off the observation tower of the Empire State Building.
An example of an explained incident is the one involving Major General Phil
Meup of Fort Dix:

   "I was walking across the field one night and suddenly saw a large
   silver, metallic disk in the sky.  It flew over me, not more than 500
   feet over my head and repeatedly described aerodynamic patterns
   impossible for even our most sophisticated aircraft.  Suddenly, as I
   watched it came to a halt, hovered over me for a few seconds, and then
   shot away at an incredible speed."

Investigators became suspicious of this report when they noticed that the
Major General Meup could not describe this incident without hesitation.  It
also seemed to one of the investigators that the officer was attempting to
suppress a cough or giggle throughout the description.  Major General Meup
later admitted that he had just seen several Science Fiction movies
including "War of the Worlds" and "Close Encounter of the Third Kind" and
had gotten a "very big kick out of them."

If most UFO sightings have been satisfactorily explained, what of those few
which have cannot?  And why are Air Force investigators willing to reopen
previously explained and closed cases?  

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************

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*** EOOH ***
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 88 09:24:43 EDT
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #109
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 4 Apr 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:

			Administrivia - Last Issue,
                        Books - Some Reviews & Author Poll &
                                A Request & New Magazine &
                                Arthurian References

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Apr 88 08:59:51 EST
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
Subject: Last Issue

Well folks, as Foghorn Leghorn was fond of saying: "It's a joke son, a
joke! Don't you get it, boy??"

It seems that quite a number of people were fooled by the last issue which
was, of course, the annual April Fool's Issue.  Among the various replies I
got included several offers for money to help pay legal fees to fight the
"charges" against me.  Thanks for your support, but...

For those of you that were worried that you would be losing your "fix",
have no fears...the digest will be continuing as always.

Saul Jaffe
Moderator SF-LOVERS Digest
sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 21:32:01 GMT
From: rick@ge1cbx.uucp (Rick Kleffel)
Subject: Book Reviews; Lightning by Koontz, O Zone by Theroux, Night Visions 4

                      SCIENCE FICTION LITE: HEAVY HORROR
		       Book reviews by Rick Kleffel

Lightning, Dean R. Koontz (hardback)
O Zone, Paul Theroux (paperback)
Dark Visions 4, Introduction by Clive Barker, stories by Dean R. Koontz,
   Edward Bryant, Robert R. McCammon (hardback)

With everything else being subjected to today's "less is more" standards,
it isn't surprising that sooner or later we'd get "science fiction lite"
(as certainly opposed to "hard science fiction" or even "sf"); novels that
are certainly `science fiction', in that without the one
technological/social leap there couldn't be a novel, but novels in which
that "giant leap for mankind" is relegated so far into the background that
the novel reads more like a thriller in the case of "Lightning", or a
literary/eccentric character novel in "O Zone".  What is surprising is that
these are both excellent _novels_, science fciton or otherwise.

Of course, not everything is getting lighter.  In "Dark Visions 4" we have
a perfect example of why many are saying that the expansion happening in
the horror genre today is reminiscent of the "New Wave" in science fiction
that took place during the late 1960's and early 1970's.  That is, an oft
berated and much maligned genre is becoming the dumping ground for those
who cannot fit their fiction into any other genre.  The results are often
unexpected, and surprisingly literate, or at least surprising.

Dean R. Koontz has been around for so long, I almost thought I was mistaken
as to his identity when I started reading his more recent series of science
fiction/occult thrillers, available in many grocery store racks.  (Have you
seen "Phantoms", "Whispers", "Nightfall", or "Strangers", with their theme
design and mirrored covers?)  But then I went and looked at my copy of
"Again, Dangerous Visions", and there he is, the young science fiction
writer who brought us "A Mouse in the Walls of the Global Village".  And lo
and behold, the man who brought us (he has to admit it!) "Demon Seed".
Well, maybe the book was better.  In between, a bookshelf full of Ace
science fiction paperbacks, and ANOTHER bookshelf full of crime thrillers
under various psuedonyms.  And, most lately, "Watchers", then today's
selection, "Lightning".  All I can say is that practice makes perfect.

Koontz's strength and weakness has always been a willingness to write
unabashed `bestseller fiction', and "Lightning" is no exception, well,
except in that....it's great.  He constantly treads the line between
triteness and accessability, but always falls on the right side of the
fence.  In "Lightning", we are drawn in the life of Laura __________, a
woman who has been saved from life treatening situations by a mysterious
protector.  At the age of 30, her turn to repay the debt comes up.......

First and very important is that Koontz has come up with a brilliant
variation on a time-honored science fiction theme which won't be divulged
in this review.  But, more than this, it is obvious that Koontz _likes_ all
of his characters, even the `bad guys' (this is a thriller, there are bad
guys). And he shows this by carefully developing each one, filling in their
lives with details and locations set in his own home, Orange County,
California.  This is a book where the characters become people you know,
and the setting becomes places you've been.  And since this book is a
thriller, well, it is in fact, thrilling.  The science fiction invention is
cross-fertilized with a hammerlock plot that will deter even the laziest,
most critical reader from putting the book down before it is finished.
This is science fiction that will make genre and non-genre readers enjoy
and appreciate what can be done within the science fiction genre.  Yet
there are no long winded, hardware descriptions; it's as if an author in
the 1800's wrote a science fiction crime novel about the freeway killings
taking place now.  You'd certainly need to have the sf invention, `the
car'; and it would be integral to the plot.  But, people wouldn't think
about `how the car works'; they'd just be driving and shooting.  And isn't
that what good (science) fiction is all about?

What Mr. Koontz has mastered is the oft-maligned art of storytelling.  This
is often used as a put-down by many who have more `literary' tastes, but
the fact remains that Koontz is a very skilled writer, more so than most
`literary adult contemporary artistic holier than thou' writers under the
age of 30.  He's experienced; he's been doing this for twnety years, and
the experience has paid off nicely.  He writes bestseller fiction that
doesn't make my demanding skin crawl with revulsion ( I HATE `bestseller
fiction' in general), and that's why I'm so impressed with his achievment
here.  I constantly expected the worst, but was rewarded with the best.
Let me put it this way; I've had the book for less than a month, and not
only have I read it, but five other friends have too.  So I certainly got
my money's worth; most readers will feel the same, I suspect.

"O Zone" is at the other end of the spectrum; a science fiction novel by a
`literate novelist', Paul Theroux.  It came out last year as a hardback,
but my skeptiscism of sf by a non-sf writer was so great that I wasn't
about to dish out the money for it until: I saw the film of "The Mosquito
Coast", and loved it, and the book came out in paperback.

Once those conditions were met, and I bought and started the book, I was
hooked.  And, once again, confronted with science fiction lite.  In this
novel, it's the twenty-first century, and nothing has much changed except
that what's bad now, is much worse.  The rich live in sealed cities; the
poor crowd outside, and are not even considered human - they're called
`aliens'.  What Paul Theroux gives us in this familiar sf backdrop is first
quality prose and vivid memorable, characters who will grow, change,
regress during the course of the novel.  The SF is subdued by the rich
characterization, but no less essential to the novel.  The plot concerns a
group of owners who decide to have a New Year's Eve party in the O Zone - a
fenced-off, guarded wasteland in the Ozarks where a nuclear accident - or
on-purpose - may have taken place.  They expect nothing to be alive there,
but come across `aliens', aliens that are surprisingly human looking.  Some
are shot, some fall in love, some are lost, some are obnoxious - but then,
this is a novel that you read as much to find out what the characters will
become as you do to find out what becomes of the characters.  And another
novel that can be enjoyed both by science fiction fans and by readers of
mainstream fiction.

"Dark Visions 4" is the newest entry in this top-flight series from a new
star in the small American publishing houses, _Dark Harvest_ books.
Despite the high, high quality of the previous issues, this is by far the
best of the series.  The idea of this series is to give top notch veteran
and newcomers to the field of horror 30,000 words to do with what they
wish.  In general, the fiction published in these books is darker, more
extreme and more experimental than that found in the writers more gnerally
available releases. Last year brought us Clive Barker's "The Hellbound
Heart", which he directed as the movie "Hellraiser".  This year brings us
three stories by Dean R. Koontz, a passel of tales by Edward Bryant and
three stories by Robert R. McCammon.

Koontz's work in this collection takes elements of his bestseller style
writing and combines them with elements of shock horror. The results
(surprisingly enough to me) are wonderful, shocking, exciting stories that
are definietly this writer's best, most uncompromising work.  Two of the
tales use classic SF monsters (a shape changer, a body snatcher) and rather
extreme gore, but amazingly, end up being convincing tales of - love!
There's a smidgen of black humor and a truckload of dark horror, but these
are stories about man's capacity to love.  The shock of finding out what
the subject is in these works is as great as those provided by the
sf/horror elements.  The final story subjects a rather unlikeable atheist
narrator to the horrors of extreme bad luck.  The prose in this story is
remarkably controlled, allowing the reader to see limitations in the
narrator that he himself is unaware of.  This is the kind of story that
should be published as mainstream fiction, but is too severe, yet too muted
for most horror magazines - and it finds a home in "Dark Visions 4".

Edward Bryant's stories also catch the reader unawares - but then, that's
the point of horror, isn't it?  They're all shorter than Koontz's, and have
a wider variety - from the humourous mystery of "Twenty Years On" to the
senseless, brief violence of "Doing Colfax", to the classic Twilight Zone
twist of "Buggage".  But, by using an ingenious device (not revealed here),
just when one starts to think that their impact will be blurred by the
variety and humour, Mr. Bryant manages to sneak up and bury a very
surprising hatchet in our unsuspecting brains.  Like Mr. Koontz, Edward
Bryant bludgeons us with horror, but surprises us with the subtlety of his
written art.

Robert R. McCammon has written many, many mainstream style horror novels
from "They Thirst" (my candidate for one of the best modern vampire novels)
to "Usher's Passing", a gothic novel of the arms race and black magic set
in the South.  His writing style has always been superior to the
run-of-the-mill- Graham Masterson/Whitley Streiber-let's-crank-out-
another-monster-black-magic- story school of fiction, so I was a bit
disappointed that he didn't offer the freshness of artistic vision offered
by the other writers.  But, for sheer peek-between-your-fingers terror, he
certainly delivers the goods, particularly with "Best Friends", the story
of some very, very bad demons that decide to come into our world to quote -
"Ready or not, here they come!"

Which, might be said about the "Night Visions" series.  Later this year, we
can expect to see "Night Visions 5", with contributions by Stephen King,
and Dan Simmons.  If Mr. King doesn't pull this series out into the
limelight, then - maybe my hat will eat me.

"Dark Visions" won't make it to Crown Books, and you can bet that last
years release has tripled in value, since there's a very limited run on
these books.  You may however be able to find or order it at: Change of
Hobbit, Santa Monica CA, Dangerous Visions, (Woodland Hills?, CA), or from
George Weinberg Books, Oak Forest Illinois.  Better hurry!

Quotron Systems Inc.    
5454 Beethoven Street   
PO Box 66914 LA CA 90066
(213)827-4600 x4256
uucp: trwrb!scgvaxd!janus!trdrjo!rick

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 88 21:35:45 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Favorite Obscure Authors Poll

Well, a month has passed since my last survery ended, and generated a fair
amount of controversy for a survey its size.  Therefore, I will begin
another.  This survey concerns favorite authors you suspect no one else has
ever heard of.  The responses should contain the author's name, a list (not
necessary comprehensive) of the author's works, how you stumbled across the
author, and why you feel the author is important, or not noticed to a wide
enough extent.

I will close the survey after seven days of failing to receive any more
responses, and will post updates every two weeks, or every time the length
exceeds a hundred or so lines.

I will, if volume requires, summarize.

UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 09:06:58 GMT
From: kevin@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Kevin Waugh)
Subject: Thongor/Thieves World reading lists

Hi,

I'm currently collecting the Thongor series of books by Lin Carter, and the
Thieves World series; intending to have a mega reading session when they're
all in one tidy pile..

One problem I'm having is in compiling full list of books and the correct
reading order for the series.

Can anyone help?

Kevin 

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 21:32:06 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: MZBs Fantasy Magazine

This is in response to mailed requests to post the details about Marion
Zimmer Bradley's _Fantasy Magazine_.  Pleae note--I have an indirect
interest in the magazine, as my wife has sold MZB stories for it.  If that
offends anyone, then I'm sorry, but there is general interest out there.

The following is from the flyer that has been put out:

			 Marion Zimmmer Bradley's
			     Fantasy Magazine

Marion Zimmer Bradley is delighted to announce the forthcoming appearance
of her new fantasy magazine.  The first issue is expected to be available
in June 1988, with issues appearing quarterly thereafter.

Appearing in the first issue:
   Imagination and Reason -- Poul Anderson
   The Skycastle -- Bruce D. Arthurs
   To Father a Sohn -- Patricia B. Cirone
   Luck of the Draw -- Elizabeth Dobecki
   Moonrise -- Dorothy J. Heydt
   Unquenchable Fire -- Nina Hoffman
   Arady Mountain -- Millea Kenin
   The Dragon and the Sword -- Paula Helm Murray
   The Vision -- Rachel Cosgrove Payes
   cover by George Barr

Writer appearing in future issues include:
   M. Coleman Easton             Marina Fitch
   Janet Fox                     Dorothy J. Heydt
   Phyllis Ann Karr              Alice Laurance
   Shariann Lewitt               Patricia Shaw Mathews
   Vera Nazarian                 Jennifer Roberson
   Susan Shwartz                 Elisabeth Waters
   Deborah Wheeler               Mary Frances Zambreno
 
For subscription information write to:
   MZB Enterprises
   P.O.Box 72
   Berkeley, CA 94701


Is it going to be any good?  I don't know.  I have read and liked Poul
Anderson's writings for years (with some exceptions).  It's probably
obvious that I've read _Moonrise_.  I think a lot of people will enjoy
that.  If you want to get a flavor for MZBs editing style, she's been
editing two series of anthologies for some years now--the Friends of
Darkover (_Sword of Chaos_, _Thendara House_, _Red Sun of Darkover_, etc.)
and the Sword & Sorceress series (I think number five will be out this
summer).  She has said that she's looking for more fantasy stories for the
magazine, so if you write (or know someone who does) by all means write and
ask for a style sheet, or just read the forewards of her anthologies.  I'm
sending in a subscription as I'm willing to take a flyer on it for a year.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{dual,qantel,ihnp4}ptsfa!pbhya!whh

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 16:54:48 GMT
From: dilvish@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Jim Van Verth)
Subject: Re: Arthurian references : a rather complete list

Just like to add my two cents to this...

There are also various comics which have dealt with the Arthurian myth.
_Camelot 3000_ has been mentioned, by Mike Barr and Brian Bowland, which is
about the return of King Arthur and his knights, with a few twists.
Another look at the mythos is _Demon_, a series by Matt Wagner, which talks
about Etrigan, a demon servant of Merlin.  I'd also like to off my
recommendation for _Mage_, also by Wagner, which is a great analysis of the
Hero within each of us.

Jim Van Verth
UUCP:   {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!dilvish
ARPA:   dilvish%dartmouth.edu@csnet-relay.arpa
CSNET:  dilvish@dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 4 Apr 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:

		     Art - Favorite Artists (21 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 18:57:40 GMT
From: judy@linus.uucp (Judith Schaffer)
Subject: SF Art

I know it's unusual for people to post about things other than books, but I
was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.  My personal favorite is Tom
Canty, who's done the cover to _The Sun and the Moon and the Stars_.  At
the last con I attended, I bought six of his prints.  I wish I could have
afforded the originals he was auctioning.... (sigh)

What do you all think?

Judy Schaffer
ARPA: judy%faron@mitre-bedford.arpa
UUCP: {. . .}!linus!faron!judy

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 88 23:33:52 GMT
From: johnm@voltron.sgi.com
Subject: Re: SF Art

judy@linus.UUCP (Judith Schaffer) writes:
> I know it's unusual for people to post about things other than books, but
> I was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.

Boris Vallejo and Frazetta are my favorite artists (in that order).

john

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 23:28:45 GMT
From: lavin@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Anne R LaVin)
Subject: Re: SF Art

judy@linus.UUCP (Judith Schaffer) writes:
>I was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.  My personal favorite is
>Tom Canty...

My vote would be for Michael Whelan.  Anybody else?

(I've bought several books for which he's done the covers just because I
loved the cover art...most turned out to be pretty good, too)

Anne R. LaVin
lavin@athena.mit.edu
MIT Aero & Astro    
(617) 253-0911      

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 05:29:48 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: SF Art

skitchen@athena.mit.edu (The Skinner) writes:
>judy@linus.UUCP (Judith Schaffer) writes:
>>I know it's unusual for people to post about things other than books, but
>>I was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.  My personal favorite is
>>Tom Canty, who's done the cover to _The Sun and the Moon and the Stars_.
>
>For humorous SF art, I've always turned to Phil Foglio.  The work he's
>done with the _Myth Adventures_ large paperback covers is outstanding,
>along with all the inside stuff.  He also did a wonderful job with the
>"What's New" series in _Dragon_ magazine.  The adventures of Phil and
>Dixie usually left me rolling in the aisles.  Too bad he's not doing it
>any more...
>
>Idle mind, so what?...

Rush right out and buy the first TWO books of "Buck Gadot: Zap Gun for
Hire"!  The first was a collection of stories, while the second covered the
misadventures of Buck and someone he killed... again and again!

"Gadot!  You killed me!"

Great, Wonderful!  Had me rolling on the floor!  Had me another proton
punch!

Victor O'Rear
(619) 588-7423 (San Deigo, Ca)
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc.mil}!crash!victoro      
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA 

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 88 16:46:14 GMT
From: rec@mplvax.nosc.mil (Richard Currier)
Subject: Re: SF Art

judy@linus.UUCP (Judith Schaffer) writes:
>I was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.  My personal favorite is
>Tom Canty...

I believe that he is the dean of a So. Cal. film school now, but in the
50's Ed Emshwiller did cover art and interior illos that are still
unequaled today. I still have my copies of Galaxy, If and many more
preserved from the early to late 50's. If I take them out now and compare
them to todays art by Whelen and others the similarities are remarkable. Ed
was way ahead of his time.

Richard Currier
Marine Physical Lab
U.C. San Diego
rec@mplvax.nosc.mil
{ihnp4|decvax|akgua|dcdwest|ucbvax}!sdcsvax!mplvax!rec

------------------------------

Date: 23 Mar 88 17:46:00 GMT
From: authorplaceholder@inmet.uucp
Subject: Re: SF Art

Hmm...

Well, I don't know about *favorite*, but N. Taylor Blanchard was showing
some really neat stuff at Lunacon. He's a bit of an up-and-comer, and has
been doing SF art for a relatively short time (ie, less than ten years),
but he's an imaginative, pains-taking artist. He was the artist GoH for the
con, and it was clear from his speech that he is an outrageous
perfectionist; never a bad thing in an artist.

Also, since he isn't big name, his stuff is still affordable. Elektra, who
I was rooming with at the con, bought the painting that was on the con
program cover (a beaut called Death's Mistress -- I don't know if it's
related to the Tanith Lee book) for about $350.

(Me, I was too busy having a bidding war with Jane Sibley over a painting
from The Adventures of Samurai Cat in the Real World.)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 06:24:11 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: SF Art

skitchen@athena.mit.edu (The Skinner) says:
>For humorous SF art, I've always turned to Phil Foglio.  The work he's
>done with the _Myth Adventures_ large paperback covers is outstanding,
>along with all the inside stuff.  He also did a wonderful job with the
>"What's New" series in _Dragon_ magazine.  The adventures of Phil and
>Dixie usually left me rolling in the aisles.  Too bad he's not doing it
>any more...

Of course, Phil is still writing the _Buck Godot:  Zap Gun for
Hire_ for Starblaze.  Look for it at all finer stores that
carry that sort of merchandise.

UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 08:54:11 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp
Subject: Re: SF Art

Okay, my 'classic' favorite sf artists include Kelly Freas and Jack
Gaughan; and currently Michael Whelan and Rick Sternbach.  RS does
>beautiful< star & landscapes (but lacks a little something on his
biological entities).  HisHe currently works for ILM, and you may have
noticed his credit on ST:TNG.  I believe the matte for the city-in-the-sky
in The Empire Strikes Back was his as well.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 22:15:19 GMT
From: matoh@tragicomix.liu.se (Mats Ohrman)
Subject: Re: SF Art

I like Frazetta better than Vallejo, as his pictures has more life than
Vallejo's. Boris is much to 'perfect' and static...  Not to mention Rowena;
that's someone who cannot paint motion...

Mats Ohrman
matoh@majestix.liu.se
{mcvax,munnari,uunet}!enea!liuida!matoh
matoh%majestix.liu.se@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 08:58:30 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.uucp (Tasslehoff)
Subject: Re: SF Art

lavin@athena.mit.edu (Anne R LaVin) writes:
>judy@linus.UUCP (Judith Schaffer) writes:
>>I was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.  My personal favorite is
>>Tom Canty...
> 
>My vote would be for Michael Whelan.  Anybody else?

I second the motion.  Michael Whelan has done some of the best cover art on
com- mercial paper backs to be found.  The ones that floored me were his
McCaffrey Dragonriders books, and the Niven/Pournelle "Footfall".  No
matter what I may have thought of the stories, the cover art was fantastic!

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.calpoly.edu
...{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 21:19:46 GMT
From: jstehma@hubcap.uucp (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: SF art

   My favorite is Frazetta, who has done cover art on just about everything
of E.R. Burroughs on the shelves (plus lots of other stuff).  Although its
his sci-fi/fantasy work that everybody knows him by and that gets published
in his books, it is only a small part of what he paints.  (I'm not much
into his other stuff).

Jeff Stehman
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!jstehma
Internet: jstehma@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 21:59:26 GMT
From: oracle@spock.uucp (Ingrid E. M. de Beus)
Subject: Re: SF Art

I like Michael Whelan a great deal, too, but my vote for absolute best is
Marc DeBeus.  He's just starting out, and he's extremely talented.  Watch
for his work in any East Coast convention.

Okay, so he's my brother.  He's also good and deserves a break as much as
anybody.

I hope this hasn't offended any Whelan fanatics.  My foul-flame gear is in
the shop.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 14:27:50 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: SF Art

ugmalouf@sunybcs.UUCP (Rob Malouf) writes:
>I also noticed that Rowena Morrill (sp?) looks very much like someone out
>of one of her paintings.  Has anyone noticed artists who look like their
>art?

Easy: Boris Vallejo (and his wife Doris) can be found in numerous settings,
although he seems to be using professional models in recent paintings.  His
paintings, if static, still have an amazing impact.  I expect that his name
will be in many "favorite" lists, mine included.

Other candidates for "favorite artists": Michael Whelan for his incredibly
detailed work (see any of the plates in _Wonderworks_), Rowena Morrell, Ken
Kelly.  Dark-horse candidates would include Frank Frazetta, although he
hasn't done anything I've seen recently except lend his name to a book he
didn't write (titled _Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer_ by
someone-I-never-heard-of).

Honorable mention goes to Ed Emshwiller for his (and her?? I think his wife
was part of the team which signed "EMSH") artwork.

Frazetta and Emshwiller lose out mainly for the lack of any recent work.

And don't forget Kelly Freas.  The people who populate his drawings seem to
be having a fun time of whatever they are doing...

Joe Morris

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 01:30:21 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: SF Art

My favorite is Rick Sternbach; he is a master of the airbrush. The nicest
of his stuff I've only seen at cons, but some of his covers for Niven were
nice. I've got prints of his work for the first editions of Known Space and
Ringworld (I believe newer editions use different covers).

I also love Kelly Freas; he did a lot of the older Analog covers.

Also masterful is Joel Hagen, currently doing illustrations for some books,
computer animation (on the Amiga; see his Grand Prize winner "RGB"); he
used to do a lot of ceramic sculpture...alien skulls, at cons.

Doug Merritt
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!eris!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 03:42:39 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: SF Art

jcmorris@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Joseph C. Morris) writes:
> Honorable mention goes to Ed Emshwiller for his (and her?? I think his
> wife was part of the team which signed "EMSH") artwork.

Ed Emshwiller and his wife (Carol?) did the covers for the editions of
Harlan Ellison's books that came out before the Ace editions. Pretty
amazing stuff.
 
> Frazetta and Emshwiller lose out mainly for the lack of any recent work.
 
Ed Emshwiller recently won some sort of award for independent filmmaking,
which is probably what he has been doing lately instead of art. I believe
the award may have been given by The American Film Institute, though at
any rate I read about it in "American Film."

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 04:03:28 GMT
From: jstehma@hubcap.uucp (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: SF Art

ugmalouf@sunybcs.UUCP (Rob Malouf) writes:
>I also noticed that Rowena Morrill (sp?) looks very much like someone out
>of one of her paintings.  Has anyone noticed artists who look like their
>art?

In one of Frazetta's books he has a self portrait.  It doesn't stand out
because it looks like all his paintings of Tarzan, John Carter, and many of
the other male heroes of his work.

Jeff Stehman
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!jstehma
Internet: jstehma@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 10:03:15 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: SF Art

jsalter@polyslo.UUCP (Tasslehoff) writes:
>Michael Whelan has done some of the best cover art on commercial paper
>backs to be found.  The ones that floored me were his McCaffrey
>Dragonriders books, and the Niven/Pournelle "Footfall".

One of the things I like about Whelan is that it is obvious that he reads
the books before touching his paint brush.  He was the first artist to
paint McCaffrey's dragons with compound eyes.  The only really serious
inconsistency with the story that I've seen Whelan commit was on his cover
for "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", and that was probably to avoid
giving away one of the story's minor surprises.

Another favorite of mine is Darrel K. Sweet.  His cover for McCaffrey's
"Decision at Doona" is one of my all-time favorites.  Sweet is one of those
artists with a unique style that I can almost spot from across the room.
(Whelan I can usually spot, too, but he has a number of imitators.)

LEAST favorite artwork: Any of the "Generic Skiffy Abstracts", like Richard
Powers's chrome lava-light stuff, that have absolutely nothing to do with
anything except some mundane publisher's opinion that weirdness makes it
sci-fi.  Dishonorable mention for an individual work would have to go to
whoever did the cover for the 1972 Pyramid edition of Hal Clement's
excellent "Mission of Gravity".  Murky blue-green Jetsons cities which, to
the publisher, must have meant "sci-fi".  No way would the Mesklinites live
in such cities, even if they had the technology, which they didn't.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 17:54:54 GMT
From: spike@bu-cs.bu.edu (Spike)
Subject: Re: SF Art

skitchen@athena.mit.edu (The Skinner) writes:
>For humorous SF art, I've always turned to Phil Foglio.  The work he's
>done with the _Myth Adventures_ large paperback covers is outstanding,
>along with all the inside stuff.  He also did a wonderful job with the
>"What's New" series in _Dragon_ magazine.  The adventures of Phil and
>Dixie usually left me rolling in the aisles.  Too bad he's not doing it
>any more...

   The first N issues of the Warp Graphics Myth Adventures comic were drawn
by Foglio and were great just to look at.  There also was a guest shot by
Phil and Dixie (and Grolf(sp?))

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 15:16:57 GMT
From: rick@ge1cbx.uucp (Rick Kleffel)
Subject: Re: SF Art

lavin@athena.mit.edu (Anne R LaVin) writes:
>judy@linus.UUCP (Judith Schaffer) writes:
>>I was wondering who the favorite SF artists are.  My personal favorite is
>>Tom Canty...
>
> My vote would be for Michael Whelan.  Anybody else?  (I've bought several
> books for which he's done the covers just because I loved the cover
> art...most turned out to be pretty good, too)

I'd vote for JK Potter, whose black and white photo collages have graced
Scream Press editions of Stephen King ("Skeleton Crew"), Ramsey Cambell
("Cold Print", "The Face That Must Die", "Scared Stiff") Clive Barker
("Books of Blood" [volumes 1 -3]) and Dennis Etchison ("The Dark Country"
and "Red Dreams"), and the Arkham House editions of "The Jaguar Hunter" by
Lucius Shepherd and "Who Made Stevie Crye?" by Michael Bishop.  He has also
done cover art for numerous paperbacks, "Firecode" (a terrible book!) being
the only one I can remember. (It's his sister on the cover.)  He's also
done cover art for the late, great "Night Cry" magazine and "The Twilight
Zone Magazine".

Like Ms. LaVin, I started buying books for the art, and discovered a few
new writers as a result.  Only "Firecode" (a terrible, terrible book!) was
an exception.

His style is not simply recycled Frazetta-like sf realism - he uses garish,
surreal combinations of everyday images to convey sf-like ideas.  For those
interested in his work, Scream Press has released a series of prints of
his, "The New Flesh", $20 - $25 for 15 11"x14" prints on heavy paper -
suitable for framing and a good deal in my book.  He's the first artist to
expand the boundries of sf art since HR Giger turned the world on it's ear
10 years ago.

Quotron Systems Inc.
5454 Beethoven Street
PO Box 66914 LA CA 90066
(213)827-4600 x4256
uucp: trwrb!scgvaxd!janus!trdrjo!rick

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 03:07:10 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: SF Art

ugmalouf@sunybcs.UUCP (Rob Malouf) writes:
>I also noticed that Rowena Morrill (sp?) looks very much like someone out
>of one of her paintings.  Has anyone noticed artists who look like their
>art?

The brothers Hildebrandt show up in a few of their paintings.

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 20:58:51 GMT
From: jstehma@hubcap.uucp (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: SF Art

vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>The brothers Hildebrandt show up in a few of their paintings.

   One thing I found interesting about the brothers Hildebrandt is that, at
least in the library I found it in, their book was was indexed under
_Brothers_ instead of _Hildebrandt_.

Jeff Stehman
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!jstehma
Internet: jstehma@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 5 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Moorcock (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 88 21:37:00 GMT
From: justin@inmet.uucp
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu.UUCP writes:
>What do you feel is the best order to read Michael Moorcock's Eternal
>Champion series of series.  I own the Elric Saga, The Swords Trilogy, the
>Chronicles of Corum, the Hawkmoon Series, the Chronicles of Count Brass,
>The Eternal Champion, The Silver Warriors, and The Dragon in the Sword.
>I've read them all, and I know someone who's interested in reading them.

I found that the way I was introduced to it worked well: Erekose, Elric,
Corum, and Hawkmoon, in that order. Erekose works well at the beginning,
because it gives one a pretty good idea of *what* the Champion is. And
Hawkmoon really ought to be read last, since it comes closest to wrapping
up the story. And, obviously, one should read the Swords Trilogy before the
Chronicles of Corum, and the Hawmoon series before the Castle Brass
trilogy, because those have a real timeline to them.

>One other thing - what do you feel is the internal chronology?  I've had
>arguments with some friends and I'm trying to get evidence.  I think Elric
>is first - it ends with the creation of our universe.  Hawkmoon/Count
>Brass is sometime not long after WWIII, Corum is some more thousands of
>years after that.  John Daker starts in the 20th century but goes God
>knows where.  Am I reasonable, or completely confused?

I think that you're a little confused. While you could probably make a case
for linking all of the champions into one timeline, I don't think that
that's what Moorcock had in mind. I have heard several times that the
series all take place in different worlds of the multiverse, more or less
"simultaneously". (Actually, I have generally heard that time simply
doesn't work the same across universes; hence, some of the continuity
confusions when the champions meet.) Some of these worlds bear a strong
resemblance to our world, but there is never any hard evidence that any
*are* ours.

>Finally, how are the Cornelius Chronicles and the Dancers at the End of
>Time series?  Based on what pathetic shreds of evidence of my tastes I've
>left behind in this posting, do you think I'd like them.

Hard to tell. Cornelius *is* a Champion, but is *very* different from the
others. I've only read one or two of the Cornelius books, but I remember
them as far stranger than any of the "normal" Champion books.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 88 10:40:48 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes:
>Finally, how are the Cornelius Chronicles and the Dancers at the End of
>Time series?  Based on what pathetic shreds of evidence of my tastes I've
>left behind in this posting, do you think I'd like them.
	
I'm new to the net, and have no basis to know your taste, but those two
series are (along with Behold the Man) my favorite works of his.  The
Cornelius Chronicles helped set a standard for speculative fiction's New
Wave movement.  Some of it is quite psychedelic, as is the film version of
The Final Programme, 'The Last Days of Man on Earth'.  Jerry Cornelius (as
a character) has also been used by Norman Spinrad in The Last Hurrah of the
Golden Horde.

But The Dancers at the End of Time (and the related volume of novellas) is
my favorite work of his.  (Though admittedly there are slow moments.)  The
protagonist is Jherek Carnelian, an alternate universe doppelganger for
Jerry Cornelius.  He lives in a future where the few remaining
(immortal-like) humans have incalculable power, to the point of complete
decadence.  Jherek gains an affectation for the Ninteenth Century, and
journeys there to abduct the prim and beautiful Mrs. Amelia Underwood to
his era, getting stranded on the way, of course.  Brilliant delightful
characters at both ends of the time spectrum (including GB Shaw, HG Wells,
etc., and some >wonderful< aliens) help round out a biting satire with very
funny moments.  And the finale of the trilogy is solid sense-of-wonder Van
Vogt type of sf.

Later, he used the setting for even more bizarre stuff, as in Elric at the
End of Time.

Hope this helps, as our tastes may differ: I'm not as fond of his S&S as
many people are...

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 06:01:33 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

Okay, let's see....

   Cornelius Chronicles... there are eight of 'em now and I've read the
first three.  They definitely give you the basic idea of "not making much
sense", but they are enjoyable at that.  Jerry must be an incarnation (I
feel) because of the drastic parallels between the first Cornelius book (I
can't remember the name) and the first Elric book (same problem, damn).
Moorcock even rubs your nose in it in the appendices, where he includes a
brief passage from each and they are virtually the same, except for names
and setting (that is, the same sentences are said, but paraphrased, the
mood is the same, the action is the same, just different people, different
world).

   As far as an order for reading them, I'd have to say it's a toss up
between Elric and Corum for first.  Elric is chronolgically before Corum if
they are in the same world, because (SPOILER) Arioch dies in THWE KNIGHT OF
SWORDS, but is alive in Elric's world.  Either way, they overlap with he
tower and the seas of fate, so it doesn't really matter.  Eh, what the
heck, Corum first, I like him better.  Then, Elric.  Then...well, it's hard
to say.  John Dakar gives away the whole idea (Champion Eternal), but if
you haven't gotten by the end of both Elric and Corum, you should probably
give up.  So John Dakar next.  Then Dorian Hawkmoon.  Then, (if you must)
the Cornelius Chronicles.

   So that's:

      Corum
      Elric
      Erekose
      Hawkmoon
      (Cornelius)

    As far as Chronolgy, Jerry Cornelius seems to take place shortly after
World war III, which (I guess) wqould have to push Hawkmoon to after World
War IV.  That kinda makes sense, since the WWIII of Cornelius' time doesn't
seem to have wiped out civilization much, just thinned it out (literally
and morally).  Actually, I think you'd be a little hard pressed to fit
Jerry into a coherent chronology.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@te.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 18:14:05 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion  (Spoilers for Corum and Elric)

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
>     As far as an order for reading them, I'd have to say it's a toss up
>between Elric and Corum for first.  Elric is chronolgically before Corum
>if they are in the same world, because (SPOILER) Arioch dies in THWE
>KNIGHT OF SWORDS, but is alive in Elric's world.

No no no.  You can't kill a sword ruler.  That was made clear in "Knight of
the Swords".  You can only banish them from their plane(s), and then only
until conditions are right for their return.

Remember that Kwill and Rynn "killed" all the gods of Law and Chaos in all
the fifteen plains at the end of "King of the Swords".  But in the last
Elric book ("Stormbringer"?)  Elric blows the horn of destiny or some such
plot device and brings about the end of the world, right in the middle of
the biggest war between the gods of Law and Chaos ever seen.  (Or at least,
ever written about.)  Xiombarg, Arioch, and their buddies were present
during that time, and presumably perished.  Who but a god could die more
than once?

Arioch also makes an appearance in Hawkmoon's series, the book called
something like "The Champion of Garathorm".  (Geeze, trying to spell all
those funny words from memory.)  But admittedly, the world and time of that
book may have been different from Hawkmoon's own.

My impression was that Arioch and clan are manifestations of the worship of
humans.  Over and over again in The Swords Trilogy it is said that Man
creates his gods, and then must then suffer with his creations.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 04:17:30 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

Since there's some discussion of Moorcock's Champion Eternal work, I guess
this would be somewhat appropiate.

Last summer, in order to not go brain dead from continuous data-entry, I
re-read a bunch of MM's stuff, mostly his S&S series, but a few others as
well.  What I then did was compile a list of all the Champion Eternals I
could dredge up.  I got a good number of them from the series I read fully,
but I petered out at the end.  I'll post the list after I finish babbling.

Any additional info, corrections, etc. would be appreciated.

The Eternal Champion -- a list of as many incarnations of the Eternal
Champion that could be dredged up from the writings of Michael Moorcock

Format -

Eternal Champion  :                    Race : M (Mabden, Human)
        Companion :                           V (Vadhagh, Elf, Eldren,
        Lover     :                              Melnibonean)

Black Sword Manifestations :

Books appearing : own series
                  other's series [other E. Champ.(series)]...

Notes : 3*1   - participated in the Three Who are One
        4*1   - participated in the Four Who are One
        T-JaC - part of the Travelling consciousness of Jhary-a-Conel
        T-E   - part of the Travelling consciousness of Erekose
        3-CoG - participated in the transfer of spirit in
                  Champion of Garathorm

n/s means not specified anywhere

Eternal Champion  : Prince Corum Jhaelen Irsei (V)
        Companion : Jhary-a-Conel (M)
        Lover     : Margravine Rhalina (M)

Black Sword Manifestations : unmanifested Black Demon (in The Quest for
  Tanelorn)

Books appearing :
  Knight of Swords, Queen of Swords, King of Swords;
  The Quest for Tanelorn [Hawkmoon/Erekose(Count Brass)];
  The Sailor on the Seas of Fate, The Vanishing Tower [Elric]

Notes : 3*1 in King of Swords, 4*1 not in any book in the Corum series
        Jhary-a-Conel T-JaC.

Eternal Champion  : Corum (V)
        Companion : n/s
        Lover     : Medhbh (M)

Black Sword Manifestations : None

Books appearing :
  The Bull and the Spear, The Oak and the Ram, The Sword and the Stallion

Notes : He is the conciousness of the first Corum travelling between
  incarnations.

Eternal Champion  : "Corum" (M)
        Companion : "Jhary-a-Conel" (n/s)
        Lover     : n/s

Black Sword Manifestations : n/s

Books appearing : King of Swords [Corum(Swords Trilogy)]

Notes : this incarnation is seen by the first Corum when stranded in a
  another plane by a plane-travelling vehicle.

Eternal Champion  : Elric of Melnibone (V)
        Companion : Moonglum of Elwher (M)
        Lover     : Cymoril (V)

Black Sword Manifestations : Stormbringer, Mournblade, million Black Swords
  to attack Arioch

Books appearing :
  Elric of Melnibone, The Sailor on the Seas of Fate,
    The Weird of the White Wolf, The Vanishing Tower,
    The Bane of the Black Sword, Stormbringer;
  King of Swords [Corum(Swords Trilogy)];
  The Quest for Tanelorn [Hawkmoon/Erekose(Count Brass)];
  Elric at the End of Time (misc. End of Time stories)

Notes : 4*1 in The Sailor on the Seas of Fate. 3*1 in The Vanishing Tower.
  This order, reverse of how Corum experienced them.

Eternal Champion  : Duke Dorian Hawkmoon (M)
        Companion : Oladahn (1/2 M, 1/2 Mountain Giant)
        Lover     : Yisselda of Brass (M)

Black Sword Manifestations : the Black Jewel, the RuneStaff

Books appearing : The Jewel in the Skull, The Mad God's Amulet,
    The Sword of the Dawn, The RuneStaff (History of the RuneStaff);
    Count Brass, The Champion of Garathorm, The Quest for Tanelorn 
      (Castle Brass);
  The Sailor on the Seas of Fate [Elric];
  King of Swords [Corum(Swords Trilogy)]

Notes : 4*1 in Quest for Tanelorn.  The Hawkmoon set of Champion,
  Companion, and Lover is the only Eternal Champion to survive the
  Conjunction of a Million Spheres.
  3-CoG in The Champion of Garathorm.

Eternal Champion  : John Daker (M)
        Companion : n/s ?
        Lover     : n/s ?

Black Sword Manifestations : n/s ?

Books appearing : The Eternal Champion

Notes : John Daker T-E.

Eternal Champion  : Erekose (M)
        Companion : Arjavh ? (V)
        Lover     : Ermizhad (V)

Black Sword Manifestations : Poison Sword

Books appearing : The Eternal Champion, The Silver Warriors

Notes : Erekose T-E.  It was because of the peace achieved in this
  incarnation that he often used the name of Erekose although in other
  incarnations.
  4*1 in The Quest for Tanelorn.

Eternal Champion  : Urlik Skarsol (M)
        Companion : Jermays the Crooked (Dwarf)
        Lover     : n/s (left-over memories of Ermizhad)

Black Sword Manifestations : The Cold Sword (the full essence of the Black
  Sword)

Books appearing :
  The Silver Warriors, The Champion of Garathorm, The Quest for Tanelorn

Notes : Urlik Skarsol T-E.
        Jermays the Crooked T-JaC.
        3-CoG

Eternal Champion  : Ilian of Garathorm (M)
        Companion : n/s
        Lover     : n/s

Black Sword Manifestations : The Black Jewel

Books appearing : The Champion of Garathorm

Notes : T-E.  2-CoG.  Only stated female Champion.

Eternal Champion  : Konrad Arflane (M)
        Companion : Urquart (M)
        Lover     : Ulrica Ulsenn (M)

Black Sword Manifestations : n/s

Books appearing : The Ice Schooner

Notes :

Eternal Champion  : Jeremiah Cornelius (M)
        Companion :
        Lover     : Catherine Cornelius(M)

Black Sword Manifestations : Needler Gun

Books appearing :
  The Final Programme, A Cure for Cancer, The English Assassin,
    The Condition of Muzak

Notes : Majorly weird.  In the series, the consciousness of Jerry Cornelius
  flips around among a number of different incarnations of him.
  There are supposedly 12 (?) different versions of him of varying races
  and genders.

Eternal Champion  : Aubec of Kaneloon
        Companion : n/s
        Lover     : something, will look it up later

Black Sword Manifestations : n/s

Books appearing : The Weird of the White Wolf [Elric]

Notes :

Eternal Champion  : Jherek Carnelian (M (usually))
        Companion : ?
        Lover     : Amelia Underwood Carnelian (M)

Black Sword Manifestations : his Rings

Books appearing : An Alien Heat, The Hollow Lands

Notes :

Eternal Champion  : Oswald Bastable (M)
        Companion :
        Lover     : Una Persson (M)

Black Sword Manifestations : n/s

Books appearing : The Warlord of the Air, The Land Leviathan, The Steel
  Tsar

Notes : lots of plane and time travel

Eternal Champion  : Michael Kane (M)
        Companion : ?
        Lover     : I'll look it up later

Black Sword Manifestations : n/s ?

Books appearing :
  The City of the Beast, The Lord of the Spiders, The Masters of the Pit

Notes :

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 20:25:20 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Moorcock question...

I have a question, folks...

I started re-reading the Elric books last night and I came across something
that I hadn't noticed before.  In "Elric of Melnibone," at the beginning of
Book Three, when he goes through the Shade gate and has to fight the demons
with Rakhir's help, Thing, one of the demons says "Frank..." right before
it dies.  (Yes, I saw this the first time, but didn't think much of it).

Just before then, Elric had been asking it if it were Yyrkoon or "some
other old, familiar friend."  Also, all through the battle they had been
repeating their own names.  These two things bring a thought to mind.  If
Jerry Cornelius is also an incarnation of the Champion Eternal, then might
Thing actually be (in kind of a warped, Moorcockian fashion) Frank
Cornelius, Jerry's version of Yyrkoon?  Could it be that in much the same
way that the Champion's are linked, their adversaries are linked?  Has this
been brought up before?  Any thoughts would be appreciated...

John
5115 Margaret Morrison
Box 810
Pittsburgh, PA 15213         
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 5 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Requests (2 msgs) & Answers (7 msgs) &
                      Pringle's Best SF List & Politics in SF

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 20:09:07 GMT
From: srt@aero.uucp
Subject: Re: Looking for a Short Story

Along similar lines, anyone recall the story where aliens are
planet-hopping impregnating local females?  As I recall, the aliens have
"sperm" that are adaptive enough to mate with any ovum.  I vaguely recall
something about an alien female who has very strong defenses against
unwanted sperm (every species on that planet being inter-fertile), but the
aliens impregnate her anyway.  On Earth, they impregnate Mary.  Or perhaps
I'm confusing two stories...

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 17:55:46 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: WANTED: Atlantis novels

I am looking for novels with Atlantis as the theme.  I imagine such a
well-read group as this will have numerous recommendations.  However, I AM
NOT seeking the supposed historical class (no Berlitz or Ignatius Donnelly
books), nor am I asking for a discussion of the existence of Atlantis.  I
merely want fantasy novels that take place in Atlantis or have a strong
Atlantian cast of characters.  (Marion Zimmer Bradley had a book about the
fall of Atlantis which did not take place in Atlantis and only two minor
characters were even from there - this does not qualify as a book about
Atlantis.)

Please post or E-mail.  Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 01:13:22 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: Looking for a Short Story

>Along similar lines, anyone recall the story where aliens are
>planet-hopping impregnating local females?  As I recall, the aliens have
>"sperm" that are adaptive enough to mate with any ovum.  I vaguely recall
>something about an alien female who has very strong defenses against
>unwanted sperm (every species on that planet being inter-fertile), but the
>aliens impregnate her anyway.  On Earth, they impregnate Mary.  Or perhaps
>I'm confusing two stories...

I'll have to look when I get home, but I think it's by Norman Spinrad (hazy
memories of it perhaps in "The Last Hurrah of the Golden Horde")...  of
course, no guarantees on that. Anyhow, I remember a bit more of it: there
were two aliens, one black and the other white. They were both (if memory
serves) enormous wormlike creatures with near-omnipotent technology.  They
indeed planet-hopped about, and the two of them are caught up in a
neverending philosophical debate about "good" and "evil" (those are in
quotes because their meanings were part of the debate). The white one (of
course!)  preached love of all creatures. The black one was more pragmatic.
The crux of this tale was that this planet (a desert world) reminded both
of them of Palestine of so long ago. The white one kept proclaiming that,
this time, the philosophy of love would really triumph. The black one knew
better : that the child, when born, would be immediately killed by its
mother as an abomination since it would not be physically the same as she
(with all species interfertile, only the combination of incredible
pregnancy barriers/defenses and infanticide kept species differentiated).

What is the NAME of this story??!??

Don Coolidge

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 01:59:19 GMT
From: brucec@orca.tek.com (Bruce Cohen)
Subject: Re: Looking for a Short Story

dfc@hpindda.HP.COM (Don Coolidge) writes:
>>Along similar lines, anyone recall the story where aliens are
>>planet-hopping impregnating local females? 
>
>I'll have to look when I get home, but I think it's by Norman Spinrad
>(hazy memories of it perhaps in "The Last Hurrah of the Golden Horde")...
>of course, no guarantees on that.
>
>What is the NAME of this story??!??

The author was Fritz Leiber, the name of the story (made out dimly through
the haze of the years) was "One Station of the Way".  Well, that's close.
Published in the early/mid '70s, I think, in Amazing or its sister magazine
Fantastic.  That part's even hazier, so I make no guarantees as to
accuracy.  Anyone have a Leiber bibliography to check that in?

Bruce Cohen
Tektronix Inc.
M/S 61-028
P.O. Box 1000
Wilsonville, OR  97070
{the real world}...!tektronix!ruby!brucec
brucec@ruby.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 19:49:00 GMT
From: hammer@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Looking for a Short Story -> Found!

A little while ago I posted a request for a short story title.  The
knowledge and speed of the net if impressive.  I posted:

> I have a dim memory of a short story I read long ago and would like to
> find again.  What I remember about the plot:
> 
> At least two guys are planet hopping.
> 
> Everywhere they go, the natives couldn't care less about them because of
> a great occurance has just transpired on their planet -- the Son of God
> has just been there.
> 
> As I recall the ending, one guy stays on the last planet (the one where
> they finally find out what is going on) while the goes off trying to
> catch Christ.

The replies I got:
	Bradbury
	Bradbury - may be in "R is for Rocket" or "S is for Space"
	Bradbury - *might* be in _The_Martian_Chronicles_.
	Bradbury - probably in _The Illustrated Man_
	Bradbury - possibly in "The Golden Apples of the Sun"
	Philip Jose Farmer
	Bradbury
	More story details

Armed with a clear consensus of it being a Bradbury story I went of to the
library, and after a fairly short search found it.  It is "The Man", from
Bradbury's _S is for Space_.

Thanks to all for the help.

David Hammerslag
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
hammer@a.cs.uiuc.edu (ARPA)/(CSNET)
{pur-ee, ihnp4}!uiucdcs!hammer (USENET)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 88 15:37:52 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: future development

I'm also not sure if this is what is wanted, but the "Trgon Disunity" by
Michael Kube-McDowell, which so far consists of "Emprise", "Enigma," and (I
think it's called) "Empree."  I've only read Emprise (because I can't find
Engima, since Empree came out :-( , but at the end, the notion of humanity
has definitely been questioned.  I won't give away what happens, but I
think it qualifies.  The development, here, by the way is the receipt of a
message from and a visit from an alien race (from Mu Cassiopeia (sp?)).
Overall it's kind of like Joe Haldeman meets Niven and Pournelle, but, hey,
I like Haldeman, Niven, and Pournelle.  Try it.

John

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 20:42:40 GMT
From: kd@sfmag.uucp (K.Delbarre)
Subject: Re: serendipity, inc?

In a previous article, some bozo (me) writes:
> I'm trying to track down a story I read many years ago.  Unfortunately,
> my memories of it are very vague, and I may be mixing together pieces of
> different books/stories, but here are the elements that I remember: - a
> company named "Serendipity, Inc."  - the company motto, "We Also Walk
> Dogs" [ ... ]

Heartfelt thanks to the many people who replied to me by mail or news.  I
was surprised to get any responses at all, but the number and quality of
the ones that showed up really blew me away.  (Special thanks to Anthony
Garcia, who included a complete synopsis of the story.)  It turns out that
the author was Robert Heinlein.  The story, entitled "We Also Walk Dogs",
has appeared in a number of collections of RAH's short stories, including
"The Past Through Tomorrow".  The company (whose motto is indeed We Also
Walk Dogs) was General Services Corporation rather than Serendipity Inc.,
to my chagrin.  Still, I've been reminded how much I enjoy Heinlein, and
have decided to re-read everything I have by him.  Maybe I'll stumble
across Serendipity, Inc.  in some other RAH gem.  Thanks again.

Kelvin Delbarre
AT&T
190 River Road
Summit, N.J.
attunix!kd

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 21:38:08 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Books on Atlantis

Here is a brief list of some novels about Atlantis, more or less.  While a
few of them are based on "cult science", they are all fiction.

Francis Ashton		The breaking of the seals
			Alas, that great city
Pierre Benoit		L'Atlantide		[+]
Nelson Bond		Exiles of time
Marion Z Bradley	The fall of Atlantis
Stanton Coblentz	The sunken world
Erle Cox		Out of the silence
			The eternal echo
Phyllis Cradock		Gateway to remembrance
L Sprague de Camp	The tritonian ring	[+]
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle	The maracot deep
Karl zu Eulenberg	Die Brunnen der grossen Tiefe
George Foster		The lost garden
Jane Gaskell		The serpent
			Atlan
			The city
			Some summer lands	[+]
Richard Hatfield	Geyserland
Robert E Howard		King Kull &c
C J Cutcliffe Hyne	The lost continent	[+]
Thomas Janvier		In the sargasso sea
Marjorie Livingston	Island sonata
Leslie Mitchell		Three go back
Stanley Mullen		Kinsmen of the dragon
Frederick Oliver	A dweller on two planets
David Parry		The scarlet empire
"Platon"		Timaios
			Critias
Lillian Roy		The prince of Atlantis
Owen Rutter		The monster of Mu
Otto Schulz		Tlavatli
Richard Shaver		I remember Lemuria
			The return of Sathanas
Francis Sibson		The survivors
			The stolen continent
Clark Ashton Smith	many tales
Charles Stilson		Polaris and the goddess Glorian
Dennis Wheatley		The man who missed the war
			They found Atlantis
S Fowler Wright		Deluge
			Dawn

This is mostly taken from L Sprague de Camp's book: Lost Continents.  I
haven't read all of them, but those I have read and recommend are annotated
with [+] in the above list.  Plato, I assume, has no need of any
recommendation from me!

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 07:11:34 GMT
From: elric%imryrr@sun.com (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Books on Atlantis

Don't know if this counts, but The Doctor (of Doctor Who) has visited
Atlantis at least once...  presumably these stories have been novelized...

Rick Heli
Internet:  rheli@sun.COM
UUCP:      ...!sun!rheli	

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 07:36:08 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi "best" lists

MARTINA@sask.BITNET writes:
>A recent posting mentioned that *Roderick*at*Random* was choosen by David
>Pringle as one of the 100 best science-fiction books of all time.  Where
>can I find out what the other 99 books are?  Also, what other "best" lists
>are around out there?  Obviously a list of say Hugo winners is one type of
>"best of" list.  A pointer to other such lists (you don't need to type the
>whole thing in :-) ) would be appreciated.

Funny you should ask.  Recently I'd prepared a textfile of Pringle's
choices for the BBSes I sub-sysop for.  I would also recommend a similar
list in David Hartwell's Age_of_Wonders, Michael Moorcock's
Best_100_Fantasy_Novels, and a great many such lists in J.N. Williamson's
How_to_Write_Horror,_Fantasy_ and_Science Fiction (from Writers' Digest
Books).

David Pringle's 100 Best Novel list. 
 
David Pringle is editor of Interzone, a British semi-prozine.  This list is
from his book, The 100 Best SF Novels, published by Carroll & Graf.
 
As with any such list, it is idiosyncratic, but interesting. 
  It is chronological.  Pringle explains his criteria in the introduction.

Nineteen Eighty-Four          George Orwell 
Earth Abides                  George R. Stewart 
The Martian Chronicles        Ray Bradbury 
The Puppet Masters            Robert A. Heinlein 
The Day of the Triffids       John Wyndham 
Limbo                         Bernard Wolfe 
The Demolished Man            Alfred Bester 
Fahrenheit 451                Ray Bradbury 
Childhood's End               Arthur C. Clarke 
The Paradox Men               Charles L. Harness 
Bring the Jubilee             Ward Moore 
The Space Merchants           Frederik Pohl & C.M. Kornbluth 
Ring Around the Sun           Clifford D. Simak 
More Than Human               Theodore Sturgeon 
Mission of Gravity            Hal Clement 
A Mirror For Observers        Edgar Pangborn 
The End of Eternity           Isaac Asimov 
The Long Tomorrow             Leigh Brackett 
The Inheritors                William Golding 
The Stars My Destination      Alfred Bester 
The Death of Grass            John Christopher 
The City and the Stars        Arthur C. Clarke 
The Door Into Summer          Robert A. Heinlein 
The Midwich Cuckoos           John Wyndham 
Non-Stop                      Brian W. Aldiss 
A Case of Conscience          James Blish 
Have Space-Suit--Will Travel  Robert A. Heinlein 
Time Out of Joint             Philip K. Dick 
Alas, Babylon                 Pat Frank 
A Canticle for Leibowitz      Walter M. Miller 
The Sirens of Titan           Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. 
Rogue Moon                    Algis Budrys 
Venus Plus X                  Theodore Sturgeon 
Hothouse                      Brian W. Aldiss 
The Drowned World             J.G. Ballard 
A Clockwork Orange            Anthony Burgess 
The Man in the High Castle    Philip K. Dick 
Journey Beyond Tomorrow       Robert Sheckley 
Way Station                   Clifford D. Simak 
Cat's Cradle                  Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. 
Greybeard                     Brian W. Aldiss 
Nova Express                  William S. Burroughs 
Martian Time-Slip             Philip K. Dick 
The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch 
                              Philip K. Dick 
The Wanderer                  Fritz Leiber 
Norstrilia                    Cordwainer Smith 
Dr. Bloodmoney                Philip K. Dick 
Dune                          Frank Herbert 
The Crystal World             J.G. Ballard 
Make Room! Make Room!         Harry Harrison 
Flowers for Algernon          Daniel Keyes 
The Dream Master              Roger Zelazny 
Stand on Zanzibar             John Brunner 
Nova                          Samuel R. Delany 
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? 
                              Philip K. Dick 
Camp Concentration            Thomas M. Disch 
The Final Programme           Michael Moorcock 
Pavane                        Keith Roberts 
Heroes and Villains           Angela Carter 
The Left Hand of Darkness     Ursula K. LeGuin 
The Palace of Eternity        Bob Shaw 
Bug Jack Barron               Norman Spinrad 
Tau Zero                      Poul Anderson 
Downward to the Earth         Robert Silverberg 
The Year of the Quiet Sun     Wilson Tucker 
334                           Thomas M. Disch 
The Fifth Head of Cerberus    Gene Wolfe 
The Dancers at the End of Time 
                              Michael Moorcock 
Crash                         J.G. Ballard 
Looking Backward, From the Year 2000 
                              Mack Reynolds 
The Embedding                 Ian Watson 
Walk to the End of the World  Suzy McKee Charnas 
The Centauri Device           M. John Harrison 
The Dispossessed              Ursula K. LeGuin 
Inverted World                Christopher Priest 
High-Rise                     J.G. Ballard 
Galaxies                      Barry N. Malzberg 
The Female Man                Joanna Russ 
Orbitsville                   Bob Shaw 
The Alteration                Kingsley Amis 
Woman on the Edge of Time     Marge Piercy 
Man Plus                      Frederik Pohl 
Michaelmas                    Algis Budrys 
The Ophiuchi Hotline          John Varley 
Miracle Workers               Ian Watson 
Engine Summer                 John Crowley 
On Wings of Song              Thomas M. Disch 
The Walking Shadow            Brian Stapleford 
Juniper Time                  Kate Wilhelm 
Timescape                     Gregory Benford 
The Dreaming Dragons          Damien Broderick 
Wild Seed                     Octavia A. Butler 
Riddley Walker                Russell Hoban 
Roderick            \ 
Roderick at Random  /         John T. Sladek 
The Book of the New Sun       Gene Wolfe 
The Unreasoning Mask          Philip Jose Farmer 
Oath of Fealty                Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle 
No Enemy But Time             Michael Bishop 
The Birth of the People's Republic of Antarctica 
                              John Calvin Batchelor 
Neuromancer                    William Gibson 

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 11:02:36 GMT
From: Messenger.SBDERX@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Books with Objectivism, [SPOILERS]

gls@odyssey.att.com (g.l.sicherman) writes
> Such a book is _The Eye in the Pyramid_ by R. Shea and R. A. Wilson.

Fnord ... _The Eye in the Pyramid_ is only one book of a trilogy, commonly
refered to as the Illuminatus Trilogy.  I suggest you read the second two
books to find out what happens to Atlanta Hope (who is, incidently, based
on real life fascist Ayn Rand and her book _Atlas Shrugged_ (is this really
being made into a movie???)) and the rest of the gang.  Can Hagbard save
Civilization As We Know It?  Watch the Intrepid Discordians Slug it Out
with the Shoggoth on Walpurgis Nacht!

Hugh
Hippo.SBDERX@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 5 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Anthony (4 msgs) & Brin & Brust (2 msgs) &
                    Cherryh & Donaldson & Duane (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 21:53:27 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Incarnations of Immortality

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes:
>Me and a friend are trying to figure out what is going to happen in the
>final book.  He feels (he admits he can't find any evidence), that Satan
>will step down to marry Orb.  Also, he feels that Satan is a 6th
>Incarnation, and since good or evil credit goes to an Incarnation based on
>how well he does his job, Satan might be getting himself good credit by
>doing his job well i.e. being really evil.

I haven't read the next (are you sure it is final?) book either.  I think
it is titled _Being a Green Mother_ or some such.  I've seen it in
hardback, but, alas, couldn't afford it at the time.

>Also, he thinks that Gaea is either an ancestor or descendant from one or
>more of the other Incarnations.

Gaea appears to have been in office longer than the other incarnations.  I
also wonder if Time is as powerful as Gaea or not (you indicated he had the
most powerful symbol, but even Time had to face Gaea's gauntlet).

>Finally, for any of you Incarnation fans, along with any spoilers you care
>to send, what Incarnation's job would you want, and why?

I think I would prefer Time's job because I've always been wild about Time
paradox problems and it would give me a chance to examine them... :-)

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 88 02:19:21 GMT
From: cs2531ci@charon.unm.edu (Brian Bowers)
Subject: Re: Incarnations of Immortality

runyan@hpirs.HP.COM (Mark Runyan) writes:
>rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes:
>>A response to the _Incarnations of Immortality_ posting.
>>Also, risking anti-Anthony flames...
>
>I haven't read the next (are you sure it is final?) book either.

Yes, _Being a Green Mother_ is touted as the fifth and final book in the
Incarnations series.

>I think it is titled _Being a Green Mother_ or some such.  I've seen it in
>hardback, but, alas, couldn't afford it at the time.

I too saw it in hardback, with much the same result.

>>Also, he thinks that Gaea is either an ancestor or descendant from one or
>>more of the other Incarnations.

Gaea is the name of the office.  Orb is the name of the main character of
_Being a Green Mother_.  Orb is the daughter of the star of _With a Tangled
Skein_.  (Sorry, the book is in my room, and I don't feel like running
there simply to find out the "real" name of the main character.)  Having
held the position of Clotho and the position of the middle aspect of fate
(talk about bad memory!!) Niobe is the mother of Orb, thus making Orb, the
holder of the office Gaea, a descendant of two facets of one Incarnation,
and might, by marriage, be related to Death (do Incarnations marry
mortals?).

>Gaea appears to have been in office longer than the other incarnations.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Orb was conceived after Niobe accepted the job
of Clotho, and, I'm not sure about this, doesn't seem to have taken the job
of Gaea until after Niobe took on an aspect of Fate for the second time.
Therefore, Orb does not have seniority over Niobe.  (Death got a new office
holder before Mym took office as War, and Mym and Orb were lovers while
part of the caravan.)

>I also wonder if Time is as powerful as Gaea or not (you indicated he had
>the most powerful symbol, but even Time had to face Gaea's gauntlet).

Time is powerful, but I, personally, think war is the most powerful (of the
non-Divine Incarnations).  With the Doomsday clock, War can cause the
complete destruction of life on the Earth.  While Time can travel through
time, and can even stop time, the duration of such acts is limited.  War
would, eventually, overcome the obstacles that could be thrown in his way.

>>Finally, for any of you Incarnation fans, along with any spoilers you
>>care to send, what Incarnation's job would you want, and why?
>
>I think I would prefer Time's job because I've always been wild about Time
>paradox problems and it would give me a chance to examine them... :-)

Glad to hear that you want Time's job; I certainly wouldn't want it.  Since
Death has already been taken, I would be War (I'm fascinated by the martial
arts, and War is a Master of the arts) Let's have some other volunteers.
Remember that there are the two Divine Incarnations, but we'll assume that
GO-o-D and D-evil are already taken for the duration of existence.  That
leaves Fate (all three aspects) and Gaea.  Any takers?

Brian Bowers
cs2531ci@charon.unm.edu
ames!hc!hi!charon!cs2531ci

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 06:31:59 GMT
From: judy@mcgp1.uucp (Judy Johnson)
Subject: Anthony

cwp@otter.hple.hp.com (Chris Preist) writes:
> While I agree with the general comments made by M. Farren above with
> respect to Piers Anthony, I can recall reading rather a good book by him
> about 5 years ago. It was called OMNIVORE, and dealt rather cleverly with
> communication with a peculiar alien race, the Manta. What do any of you
> 'literary SF' fans who have read it think about it?

I also read _Omnivore_, as well as the rest of the trilogy (_Ox_ and _Orn_)
That was when I began to realize that Anthony was more into exploring
intellectual concepts using prototypes as characters, than into developing
3-dimensional characters with whom I could identify and vicariously share
an experience. For example, each of the three protagonists in this trilogy
is a prototypical adherant of one of the three dietary options: vegetarian,
carnivore (in purest form:consumes only blood), and omnivore.  They (the
novels) were well done, but my preference is for depth of character and
emotional involvement, so I have read very little more Anthony.  However,
to be fair, it was his earlier novel _Macroscope_ that turned me on to sf
in the first place. 

Judy Johnson
{the universe}!uw-beaver!tikal!mcgp1!judy

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 18:19:40 GMT
From: 6081848@pucc.princeton.edu (Benjamin Cheyette)
Subject: All Anthony is *not* trash!

royer@savax.UUCP (tom royer) writes:
>iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes:
>> Most sci-fi requires a little "willingness to suspend disbelief", but
>> the main problem with Anthony is not that.  It is that his books also
>> require a "willingness to suspend intelligence" as well.  This isn't as
>> bad as it sounds (after all, most sci-fi is more fi than sci), but he
>> has no other redeaming qualities like well developed characters or
>> interesting themes.  Instead he has catchy covers and a jerry-built
>> plot.
>
>While Anthony certainly writes more than his share of less than terrific

   I have read nearly every book written by Piers Anthony <except the Tarot
series, I didn't like it> and I happen to enjoy a large part of it!
Granted, some of his extended series get to be a drag, but just *stop*
reading them! Even though some of his books aren't as good since he seems
to run out of fresh ideas in the trilogy <YOU try writing 20 books about a
fantasy world, just because your fans clamor> I still appreciate the good
ones as light, fun fantasy. Its a good break from J.R.R.Tolkein, my
favorite serious sci-fi author.So WHAT if it's a bit silly at times?  It's
FUN to read and that's what I'm looking for, a break from all the heavy
sci-fi.

And just because *you* don't like it, don't spoil it for others who might
feel just as I do. Apparently, Piers knows what alot of people like, since
his work is on the best seller lists constantly. I find his creativity and
tongue-in-cheek humore amusing and enjoyable. If I *wanted* to read about
serious heros in life and death battles with evil sorcerors, then I'd watch
Star Wars, or read Tolkien or Donaldson <which I have> So don't flame
Anthony, he happens to be a favorite of mine, with some meritable
qualities, even if he *doesn't* appeal to YOU. Anyone else out there feel
as I do?

Karen Sturtevant
reply to IP60582 at Portland after 4/3/88

------------------------------

Date: 29 Mar 88 17:07:54 GMT
From: eugene@hpfcmr.hp.com (Gene Dick)
Subject: Brin Sequel to "Uplift Wars" ??

I am new to this notes string, so excuse me if this question has already
been asked.

Does anybody know if David Brin has written a sequel as yet to The Uplift
Wars", which was the sequel to "Startide Rising"?

I really enjoyed those two books, and I am waiting to see what happens to
the Streaker and her crew.  My own personal thoughts are that they take a
route through the "D" channel hyperspace.  This would cause them to arrive
about 100-150 years later in time.  Any other thoughts on this?

Thanks.

Gene Dick

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 02:06:10 GMT
From: flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: Stephen Brust

I just re-read _The_Sun,_the_Moon,_and_the_Stars_ and noticed it has
seventeen chapters.  So does every other Brust book I can conveniently
check.  (realizing this after having 17 beaten into my head by _Taltos_)

Having written seven books, Brust will will write ten more in a career
spanning seventeen years.  :-)

Also, Devera makes an appearance in every book, except _To_Reign_In_Hell_.
(at least, I don't *think* she appears in TRIH.  I could be wrong.)

Felix Lee
flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu
*!psuvax1!gondor!flee

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 10:30:29 GMT
From: amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (/amqueue)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes:
>Also, Devera makes an appearance in every book, except _To_Reign_In_Hell_.
>(at least, I don't *think* she appears in TRIH.  I could be wrong.)  

eh? I just read _Taltos_; where is she in there? And why is she in
_The_Sun_ etc.?

amq

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 21:15:55 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>> 	She still hasn't done what I've been waiting to see ever since the
>> Chanur books started coming out.  Here we have an interstellar,
>> multiracial culture where the thing people fear the most is a "hunter"
>> ship.  THEY DON'T HAVE WARSHIPS!!!!!  The Kif and , o shoot, that other
>> race, the one

Mahendosat or something.

>> that seemed to be allied with the Hani, had the hunter ships, but they
>> seem to be about the size of the medium size merchanters in "Downbelow
>> Station" and "Merchanter's Luck".  They don't seem to be built to help
>> compensate for G forces or anything, and there is only a rumour of ever
>> attacking a planet from orbit.  One of these days a Carrier is going to
>> show up and those poor folks are going to freak out completely.
 
>This must be more or less intentional, since Cherryh has dealt with attack
>from orbit, battleships, etc - see the "Faded Sun" series.  Perhaps it's
>that Cherryh like to write about people, and the hunter ships make a
>managable and flexible threat image, whereas fleets and mass warfare tend
>to be useful more for general background and context change.

   But what I want to see is the Hani's reaction to one, just one, warship
of the likes of Norway.  I still think it would make for some interesting
writing as they reallize just how different *humans* are from themselves.

   I mean hell, look at how strange they felt after The Pride was refitted
with the new drive system that basically gave them the legs of a hunter,
without all the firepower of one.  Seeing something ten times their size
with hani-knows what drive power is going to cause them more than a little
concern.

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 10:44:40 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: A Man Rides Through (* SPOILERS! *)

E.M. Forster said (in Aspects of the Novel, I think):

   'The test of a round character is whether it is capable of surprising in
   a convincing way. If it never surprises it is flat.  If it does not
   convince it is a flat pretending to be round.'

The frustrating thing about Mordant's Need was that until half-way through
it looked as if the characters were going to be round.  Unfortunately, in
the second half they revealed their essential flatness. Eremis lost his
interest as soon as he was revealed as yet another megalomaniac villain.
Terisa consistently made decisions that fortuitously helped the plot along.
King Joyse's behaviour was reminiscent of Theoden. And, although this is
only a niggle, the names didn't help. To hear the Reverend complain about
Mrs Thatcher creased me up. And Joyce is a female name in the UK, at least.
(Yes, I know the spelling is different).

The suspense at the end of part 1 may well have been an accountant's ploy.
You can't easily sell a book the size of the whole thing.  Personally, I
didn't mind as I only had to wait about 1 month for my local library to get
part 2.

To repeat, Donaldson *has* improved. But I think that the effort of
supporting a complex plot led him to consider the mechanics of the story
too highly. I also suspect that towards the end he was getting tired of it
and just wanted to wrap it up. It's certainly more Covenant-like in the
second half as if Donaldson was falling back on the techniques that had
worked before.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 14:55:03 GMT
From: LAURA@vax.darpa.mil (Laura Burchard)
Subject: Diane Duane
 
I asked this once before, but I think the message got lost...

Does anybody know when/if Door Into Sunset and Door Into Starlight will be
published? Or is this one of those mythical sequels deals, like The
Crosstime Engineer?
 
There's nothing worse than starting a multipart novel and then finding out
the rest doesn't exist...

Laura Burchard
laura@vax.darpa.mil

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 00:55:13 GMT
From: dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane

I haven't heard anything definite about dates, and the like.  What I did
hear is that Diane Duane has once again run afoul of the "Publisher buys
the rights and then goes belly-up" syndrome.  Bluejay (the publishing
company that bought up The Door into Fire and ... Shadow after Duane's
first publisher [Dell?] cancelled their SF line) failed during the
recession a few years ago.  Between this snafu, getting married and moving
to Ireland(?), and her other writings and projects in different areas, I
imagine that Duane just hasn't pushed the writing of Sunset to completion.

Sigh.  I, too, am _really_ looking forward to reading the next two books.
I do believe that she'll write them if she lives long enough (say, within
the next decade or so ;-), and actually I don't mind the wait as long as
Duane spends the time crafting the books as carefully as she's crafted the
earlier ones.

Wonder whose viewpoints Sunset and Starlight will be told from?  I rather
expect Freelorn to have his tale told, and I'm hoping to see at least some
of the story told from Sunspark's POV.

I'd like your opinion on something, if you have one.  Just WHY did Freelorn
wander up into Glasscastle?  It was never really made clear, except for the
suggestion that he was weary at the prospect of having to save the
Kingdoms... which doesn't seem to jibe with the willpower and resolve to
save the Kingdoms that he'd shown at the end of Fire and the first part of
Shadow.  Nobody ever asked him "Lorn, why the Dark did you do such a silly
thing??".

Dave Platt
UUCP: ...!{ames,sun,uunet}!coherent!dplatt
DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com
INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 88 04:58:55 GMT
From: purtill@faline.bellcore.com (Mark Purtill)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane

(Doug Merritt) writes:
>Those of you impatient for Diane Duane's work would do well to hunt up "So
>You Want to be a Wizard", which, although apparently written for a
>juvenile market, is a lot of fun. It is sort of a takeoff on all those
>books like "So You Want to be a Chemist"...  the kids in the book find a
>book by that same title, and the adventure begins.

There is also a sequel, "Deep Wizardry", which I personally think is even
better.  I'd highly recommend both of them, especially since both are in
paperback now.

Incidentally, I heard once (I think on the net) that there was a short
story also in the sequence in an anthology somewhere.  Does anyone know
where?  (Send me mail, I will summarize to the net if there is any
response.)

Mark Purtill
purtill@math.mit.edu
...!bellcore!purtill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 6 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Adams & Eddings (3 msgs) &
                            Frankowski (3 msgs) & Herbert &
                            Lem & Norman & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                            Books with Dragons

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 01:24:49 GMT
From: blgardne@esunix.uucp (Blaine Gardner)
Subject: Goof on cover of new HHGTTG

I was at the local Waldenbook a couple of days ago, and saw a new hardbound
collection of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" books. I'm afraid the
exact title of the collection eludes me, but it was very impressive
looking. Gold edges, endpapers with the HHGTTG smiley-face sticking it's
tounge out, black leather-look binding, with said smiley-face on the cover
in gold. A good satire of the usual "deluxe" edition.

But...

On the spine the first two books are listed as: "The Hitchhiker's Guide to
the UNIVERSE" and "The Restaurant at the End of the GALAXY" (the caps are
mine).

Either this is part of the gag, or there is a potential collector's item
here. This kind of screw-up on a nicely packaged book seems out of place
even for the warped humor of this series, so I'm assuming it's a genuine
goof-up.

Now I'll stand back while everyone stampedes for the bookstores!  :-)

Blaine Gardner
Evans & Sutherland    
540 Arapeen Drive
SLC, Utah 84108
{ihnp4,ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne
ihnp4!utah-cs!esunix!blgardne
usna!esunix!blgardne

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 88 16:26:21 GMT
From: todd@reed.uucp (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Current odds on the Mallorean

Just some predictions and speculations of my own:

1) Remember that God that the Seers pray to, the unrevealed one?  I think
   that Eriond is that one.  At least he seems to be divinely powerful, he
   did call UL "Father", and he's certainly not been revealed to the world
   at large.  In a similar vein I'm guessing that he'll be the Child of
   Light. After all, if the Angaraks can't take car of their own God
   there's no reason why they should get a second one, especially when
   Aldur's people don't have a diety of their own ;-)

2) When Garion almost annihilated the Bear cult Polgara said he was in the
   greatest danger he'd been in yet.  Likewise, when he offed the Murgo
   deserters Belgarath was very concerned.  Couple that with the prophecy
   that one of the companions will die (I know, it should be Sadi,
   still...) and the two ambiguous predictions about his lack of future
   sons and/or offspring at all.  I've got a nasty suspicion that his task
   will be to _not_ kill someone who's done him wrong by, say, killing
   Ce'Nedra.  Yuck.

3) It's a long shot, but I think the Place That is No More might be Vo
   Wacune.  That song that Polgara et al. sing in Tol Honeth (where it
   never snows) refers to it in almost exactly those words.

4) David Eddings has already written the last three books of the Mallorean.
   They're just waiting to be published.

Todd Ellner

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 02:44:59 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Current odds on the Mallorean

todd@reed.UUCP (Todd Ellner) writes:
>Just some predictions and speculations of my own:
>1) Remember that God that the Seers pray to, the unrevealed one?  I think
>   that Eriond is that one.  At least he seems to be divinely powerful, he
>   did call UL "Father", and he's certainly not been revealed to the world
>   at large.  In a similar vein I'm guessing that he'll be the Child of
>   Light. After all, if the Angaraks can't take care of their own God
>   there's no reason why they should get a second one, especially when
>   Aldur's people don't have a diety of their own ;-)

   That's an interesting idea.  I would be very shocked if Eriond is not a
God.  I read the situation as being that the two prophecies are not the top
tier -- that there is a single unitary God above them that brought creation
into being, and this is the being that the seers pray to.  Eriond does seem
to be concerned with the Angarak's as his people -- he didn't want fires in
the temple and told them that he was sorry but that they would have to stop
doing that.

   Here is an off the wall speculation -- Eriond is both the child of light
and the child of dark.  Which he is to be is to be decided.

>2) When Garion almost annihilated the Bear cult Polgara said he was in the
>   greatest danger he'd been in yet.  Likewise, when he offed the Murgo
>   deserters Belgarath was very concerned.  Couple that with the prophecy
>   that one of the companions will die (I know, it should be Sadi,
>   still...) and the two ambiguous predictions about his lack of future
>   sons and/or offspring at all.  I've got a nasty suspicion that his task
>   will be to _not_ kill someone who's done him wrong by, say, killing
>   Ce'Nedra.  Yuck.

   I don't think that it is that simple -- maybe Garion is in danger of
becoming the child of dark!  On the other hand, the prolog from _King of
the Murgos_ is quoted from "The Lives of Belgarion the Great".  I wonder
why "Lives" rather than "Life".  Is that an archaism or does it mean
something.

>3) It's a long shot, but I think the Place That is No More might be Vo
>Wacune.

"... a sorrow for a place that had been lost and could never return." 
  - Vo Wacune.

"... the high places of Korim, which are no more..." - The Book of Torak.

When I first read the phrase, the place which is no more, I immediately
thought of the high places of Korim.  The quoted phrase appears several
times in the excerpt from the Book of Torak.  Presumably Korim was
destroyed when the orb cracked the world.

It has always puzzled me how they were going to get to Korim, and I had
supposed that the various references to other places had something to do
with it.  If Vo Wacune is the place referred to, things are simpler.

An interesting idea is that Zandramas is, somehow associated with VoWacune.

>4) David Eddings has already written the last three books of the
>   Mallorean.  They're just waiting to be published.

   Is this hope or information?

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 00:41:12 GMT
From: thomas@cme-durer.arpa (Bruce Thomas)
Subject: Flame On Mallorean ** MAJOR SPOILERS **

I thought I would FLAME out on the new Mallorean book.

1) This series is a repeat of the first series.  At least Eddings has the
guts to tell us everyone is going to tramp around world seeing new places
and picking up interesting people.  It makes great copy for an Army
commercial.

2) Would someone please tell me why the southern hemisphere is about a
fourth the size as the northern hemisphere.

3) Why doesn't anyone question Errand on why is can do almost anything he
wants and never gets hurt.

4) How come the Murgos are such great guys now?

5) I won't even go into who the King of Murgo's father is.

6) What about Horse's teleporting???  Isn't Garion the least bit interested
in a horse that travel at the speed of light????

7) Now the book hinted we have God's of the Gods...

8) We were soooooo wrapped up in killing Torak we forgot to tell you this
is not the end?????????

9) Why doesn't Garion tell his sword "Engines ON!" and burn down the house
when things get bad??

ODDS are Garion is going to be the one that gets the BIG CHILL.  Errand is
going to be the next Child of Light, and Garion not going to be it when
Monday Night Football comes around again.  He's going to get a "BIG CHANGE"
right?

I have to admit, I ran out and bought this book for $16.95 + TAX.  I will
go out in 6 to 12 months and buy the next one.  This book is like the Star
Trek movies.  Someone will tell you how bad it is, but you still go out and
see it.

The book was not a bad read.  Eddings can tell a good story, but he needs
some new ideas.  He might be trying to make a fast buck like Donaldson did
on the Lord Foul's Bane Trilogy.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 23:13:13 GMT
From: ts@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: The Crosstime Engineer

     I have seen the book _The_Crosstime_Engineer_, by Frankowski, (sorry,
the first name completely escapes the rusty strainer that has replaced my
brain :-) mentioned several times in this group. Maybe someone out there
can tell me when the sequel can be expected? Please? Someone? Anyone?

[Start blithering mode]
I AM TIRED OF WAITING! I WANT THE SEQUEL NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW! fooey...
[End blithering mode]

Thomas Ruschak
pur-ee!pc!ts

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 15:07:45 GMT
From: jcc@mimsy.umd.edu (John Cherniavsky)
Subject: Crosstime Engineer

A usually reliable source (the manager of my SF book shop) informed me that
the sequel to Crosstime Engineer will be out as soon as the 4th !! volume
in the series is turned into the publisher. Apparently the second and third
have already been turned in. Can anybody confirm this?

John C. Cherniavsky

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 04:20:23 GMT
From: cpf@batcomputer.uucp
Subject: Re: The Crosstime Engineer

ts@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak) writes:
>   I have seen the book _The_Crosstime_Engineer_, by Frankowski, (sorry,
>the first name completely escapes the rusty strainer that has replaced my
>brain :-) mentioned several times in this group. Maybe someone out there
>can tell me when the sequel can be expected? please? someone? anyone?

According to a paragraph in Locus, Frankowski has turned in the next two
books to his publisher, but his publisher is waiting until he completes the
fourth (and final) book before it schedules any of them.  No estimate of
how long any of this would take was given.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies		
Cornell University		
ARPA:	cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 13:29:27 GMT
From: bseymour@potpourri.uucp (Burch Seymour)
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert's puzzling shifts in quality and style

blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback) says:
>>in helping the writer get a good story out. My theory is that there was a
>>creative synergy between the two that resulted in Dune. After Herbert got
>>famous, he could print what he wanted thus the drivel that followed.
> 
> FLAME ON
> Arghh, I hate this stuff.  Several times now in different contexts people
> have proposed the theory to me that Herbert did not write "DUNE" and it 
> certainly makes me mad.  I think that conjecture like this is definitely
> maligning a great writer.  

Read carefully. I never said that Frank did NOT WRITE Dune. I suggested the
possiblity that the reason Dune is so *much* better than any of his other
books - a fact which you agree with based on the rest of your response - is
that he was working with Campbell. If Frank was getting off the track or
had some situation that did not fit logically with the rest of the story,
John might have just said, "Gee Frank, why don't you take this scene out
and do something like this". As I said in my previous note, this is the
impression of John Campbell I've gotten from reading various notes and the
autobiography of Asimov. And to re-iterate another point, why are Niven and
Pournelle books usually much better than the work of either man by himself?
Niven has a great imagination, and Pournelle has the logical smarts.
Together they can do what neither can do alone. I do not attempt to malign
Herbert, just to explain a seeming contradiction in his works.

bs

------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 16:31:56 GMT
From: kay@cosmo.uucp (Kay Gunnar Hoegel)
Subject: Re:  A Stanislaw Lem Fan Replies

Hi, out there in USA. This is Kay from CosmoNet in FRG.

I'm also a Lem fan, because he has a philosophical and sophisticated way to
write and to see things. Even in periods of writing about mankind as
marionettes of bigger beings, I really enjoy his writings.  I would like to
propose for all those people reading Lem and Intelligent SF ( not like
EESmithh or similar trash), to read also Ballard, Aldiss and Hal Clement
for example. (or Ursula K.LeGuin or or or) There is so much intSF, that I
cannot understand people reading Star Trek. This is to defend my opinion,
that SF is anticipation and warning, but is certainly a serious part of
belletristics. 

Thx, 

kay@cosmo.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 23:15:00 GMT
From: pax@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Gor Defended

In response to the recent Gor bashing.  I had a rather unusal intorduction
to Gor in that when I read my first one (#5 or 6) I was also reading Lady
Chatterly's Lover, and finished them both the same week.

You may not like what he says but you have to admire how he says it.  The
Gor series (at least the first 6 or 7 books) has some of the best writing
there is in SF.  I like his characterization.  Sure it looks easy---but try
to do it yourself.  I have, (trying to write a female response) It isn't
easy--Just look at how bad the Green stuff is to be convinced.  Norman, if
it's not a pseudonym for some better known writer, writes like he was
Hubbard.  He grabs your attention and holds it.  I think his publisher must
have complained about the length of the books.  So at one point you see him
begin to say everything twice.  As a credit to his skill he pulls it
off--at least in the few later books I have read. Another device he uses in
the later books to lengthen an otherwise good story is the off the wall
lecture.  I sometimes think that he must be a college professor to get away
with it.  But he does.  Check the number of copies sold and you will see
that he has to be one of the most successful SF authors of all time.
Measured by total number of books sold, Moorcock = 10 million (1980),
Norman must be 10+ million too (1980).

Not only that, there has always been an male/female branch of science
fiction.  Take Norton, ostensibly juvenile, yet the main theme in many
books is boy meets girl, or girl meets boy, and wonderful mystic and
magical things come from it.  Or take C L Moore(?); two of the most
provocative things I've ever read were a pair of her(?) short stories. One
story was about an alien that had distilled sexiness in women to such a
purity that men were helpless to it, just like Herbert in a recent Dune
novel.  The other was about an alien that used sexual attraction to
immobilize its victims.  These C. L. Moore stories are like King
Kong--filled with psychic allegory about our society.  Gor is the same way.
Gor novels only make sense in our society they could be a product of no
other.  They tap some great subconscious force (maybe an evil one, but in
any case a real one) -- unwitingly perhaps.  But something that drives
everyone, men and women alike.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 03:15:04 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Sign of Chaos

So how about Zelazny's newest?  Anyone read it yet?  Anyone surprised at
the end?

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 14:45:59 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos

ronc@cerebus.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>So how about Zelazny's newest?  Anyone read it yet?
>Anyone surprised at the end?

   Not all that new. It came out last fall, unless a paperback edition has
been released and you're talking about that. Anyone *not* read it yet?

   What it came down to was "Merlin has a rather busy day." I liked it.  It
was fun. It didn't do much to clear up the plot, and actually just made a
lot of things muddier. The ending was something of a surprise, yes, but I
kind of expected it to happen eventually. Not necessarily in those
circumstances, though. The real surprise for me was the hints about Corwin.

   From what I've heard (mostly on the net) there should be two more books
in the series. So Zelazny *should* start answering some of the questions in
the next one.

Pete Granger
{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 18:17:01 GMT
From: tegarvin@uokmax.uucp (Theodore E Garvin)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber) writes:

>Here's another request to pick the brains of this large mass
>of readers:
>
>To further the research I am doing, I need all the sf/fantasy novels that
>have dragons as main or supporting characters AND those dragons fall into
>the benevolent/kind/nice/friendly/pet category.  That is, DRAGONRIDERS OF
>PERN qualifies, but DRAGONSLAYER and DRAGON'S BANE types would not.
>
>It's ok if the dragon is a fire breathing ornery cuss occasionally, but
>they must show a liking for people or a person.  There must be tons of
>these books out there (I loved the Dragonrider series).

There is a book called "Dragon's Pawn", but I forget the author's name
(female).  The dragon hero in the story is a vegetarian.

Ted Garvin
tegarvin@uokmax.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 6 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:

		       Books - Moorcock (11 msgs) &
                               Book Request & Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 12:00:25 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
>Moorcock even rubs your nose in it in the appendices, where he includes a
>brief passage from each and they are virtually the same, except for names
>and setting (that is, the same sentences are said, but paraphrased, the
>mood is the same, the action is the same, just different people, different
>world).

Strange. Moorcock does this and he is is a great writer using a particular
style do demonstrate something.

Jack Chalker (amongst others) does this and he is branded a hack writer who
can't think up new ideas.

It all depends on what (who) you like to read I suppose.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 22:42:25 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Moorcock question...

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
> is also an incarnation of the Champion Eternal, then might Thing actually
> be (in kind of a warped, Moorcockian fashion) Frank Cornelius, Jerry's
> version of Yyrkoon?  Could it be that in much the same way that the
> Champion's are linked, their adversaries are linked?  Has this been
> brought up before?  Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Read around a bit.  Notice that the first part of the first book of the
Elric series is functionally the same as the first part of the first book
of the Cornelius Chronicles.

Moorcock is always putting in little things like that all the time.

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 07:17:43 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

soren@reed.UUCP (Hey Kids!!  Comics!!) writes:
>rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes:
>It's probably a mistake to try and put some absolute chronology on the
>series.  Both Corum and Elric are loosely 'set' in the past (the Mabden
>are human beings, just beginning to discover civilization).  The
>Hawkmoon/Count Brass series is set in the future (I've always assumed
>about 1000 years in the future, but I don't know if that's actually in the
>text.

Yes, but no.  Moorcock states that time flows at different rates and
directions on the different planes.  This, in "The Dragon in the Sword" we
visit briefly "our" plane during WWII, but at the end of the book there is
a reference to the Eldren becoming the ancestors of the Melniboneans.
Also, in dancers at the end of time (second book?) it is pretty well
established that the multiverse is a cyclic thing.  Beginnings always come
from endings.

On to more recent topics: My favorite of Moorcock's works is "The Warhound
and the World's Pain."  Recently he published a sequel "City in the Autum
Stars".  I found Autum Stars to be disappointing, largely because the plot
reflected that of some of the Cornelius chronicles more than that of
Warhound.  (Not that I was surprised at this :-) I guess my tastes in
writing style are more towards the traditional.

In any event, for whoever it was that was compiling that list of Champions
et al, an update is due! (I would give details, but my copies of all these
books are 300 miles from my terminal :-)

Vigorous commentary, anyone?

Scott Schwartz

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 19:39:35 GMT
From: moss!codas!pdn!jc3b21!larry@att.arpa (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion  (Spoilers for Corum and Elric)

ronc@cerebus.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
> No no no.  You can't kill a sword ruler.  That was made clear in "Knight
> of the Swords".  You can only banish them from their plane(s), and then
> only until conditions are right for their return.
> 
> Remember that Kwill and Rynn "killed" all the gods of Law and Chaos in
> all the fifteen plains at the end of "King of the Swords".  But in the
> last

Not to belabor the issue too much, but Kwll and Rhynn did not live by the
cosmic balance but predated it.  My guess is that they can do just about
anything and not live(?) by the consequences.

However, in one of the books that joins several of the characters (I think
it's basically in the Elric books, but the same scene appears in the Corum
books also), Corum mentions that he is trying to {kill,banish} the *most*
powerful of the Sword Rulers and has already {kill,banish}ed Arioch.  Elric
then replies that on his world the Sword Rulers are equally powerful and
that they share planes.  Given the concept of the *Million Spheres*, I
would have to agree that these things are happening in parallel and cannot
be linked as you would Heinlein's _Future History_ series.

When you add in the stuff relating to the ship, time makes even less sense.
For example, where do Gog and Magog fit?

Lawrence F. Strickland
St. Petersburg Junior College
P.O. Box 13489                  
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
+1 813 341 4705
...gatech!codas!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry
...gatech!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 22:41:59 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion  (Spoilers for Corum and Elric)

larry@jc3b21.UUCP (Lawrence F. Strickland) writes:
> Given the concept of the *Million Spheres*, I would have to agree that
> these things are happening in parallel and cannot be linked as you would
> Heinlein's _Future History_ series.

How I imagine Moorcock's 'universe' is this : imagine a hyper-sphere (a
sphere in 4-dimensions).  You have two points defined, let's call them a
north and south pole.  Between them are a million, somewhat randomly
scattered lines of longitude.  Along these lines are the planes on which
Moorcock's stories take place.  In some cases, there is some clumping (like
in Corum, there was a collection of 9 planes, in 3 chunks of 3; or our
plane and the 7(?)  parallel ones from _Dragon in the Sword_).  Also in the
universe there is Man which created the cosmic balance, the Black Sword,
Humans and Eldren, etc.  and the Champion Eternal avec his cohorts
(companion and consort.)

Each of these planes is a sphere which travels along it's line.  The
universe is cyclic, so they all 'start' at the north pole, and slide
around.  They conjunct at the south pole, at which time a few weird things
may happen, like Corum may start a new series.  This is the minor
conjunction of a Million Spheres.  Later, there is the Major Conjunction of
a Million Spheres, where even weirder things may happen.

Also, there is Man, running around in it's ship, playing around, trying to
make something out of the universe.  Occasionally, there are flukes in the
cosmic entities.  Like Erekose remembering his Incarnations and flipping
around like he does.  Jhary-a-Conel and his escapades.  Jerry Cornelius
just being a nuisance in general.  ect.

There are also often visitors, like Rynn and Kwll and Gog and Magog, which
Man may or may not take care of via it's tools (the Champ Eternal, etc.)

Wadda ya think?

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 20:54:20 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Eternal Champion  (Spoilers for Corum and Elric)

larry@jc3b21.UUCP (Lawrence F. Strickland) writes:
>However, in one of the books that joins several of the characters (I think
>it's basically in the Elric books, but the same scene appears in the Corum
>books also), Corum mentions that he is trying to {kill,banish} the *most*
>powerful of the Sword Rulers and has already {kill,banish}ed Arioch.
>Elric then replies that on his world the Sword Rulers are equally powerful
>and that they share planes.  Given the concept of the *Million Spheres*, I
>would have to agree that these things are happening in parallel and cannot
>be linked as you would Heinlein's _Future History_ series.

Right.  I am reminded of a scene in "The Champion of Garathorm" where Ilian
is confronted by Arioch.  Arioch gets all hazy and bits of conversations he
is having with Elric and Corum are said to Ilian.  Then Aroich complains
that he is under attack, and vanishes. I assumed that Moorcock was trying
to show how the Champion(s) perform momentus acts "simultaneously" at that
very special time, the conjunction of the million spheres even thought
their individual timelines are going in all different directions.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 88 11:48:06 GMT
From: soren@reed.uucp (My Evil Twin)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
[Moorcock writes the "same" book twice with different settings]
>Strange. Moorcock does this and he is is a great writer using a particular
>style do demonstrate something.
>
>Jack Chalker (amongst others) does this and he is branded a hack writer
>who can't think up new ideas.

Ah, but Moorcock has amply demonstrated that he *can* write more than one
book.  Jack Chalker (amongst others) has yet to do so -- at least to me.
Had all of Moorcock's 50 odd books been about an incestuous love triangle,
with a colorful, decadent, angst-filled protagonist with a phallic weapon;
chances are, I'd be calling him a hack, too.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 05:23:06 GMT
From: rlcarr@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Richard L. Carreiro)
Subject: Re: Moorcock question...

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
>I have a question, folks...  Yyrkoon?  Could it be that in much the same
>way that the Champion's are linked, their adversaries are linked?  Has
>this been brought up before?  Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Why not?  After all, Yrkoon is Elric's cousin in the Elric saga, but then
appears as a minor demon from Hell, summongs by Glandyth (sp?) in the
Knight of the Swords.  And in one of the Chronicles of Corum, Corum notices
traces of Glandyth in the face of one of the Fyore Moire (I know I blew
that spelling).

Now I have a question.  I reread The Silver Warriors and The Quest for
Tanelorn last night.  They (to me) seemed to imply that Eternal
Championship is Daker/Erekose's punishment for some great crime?  Is it his
extermination of the human race in The Eternal Champion?  Or is it
something having to do with refusing to wield the Black Sword?  Also, any
ideas about Prince Gaynor the Damned?  Could he really have offered peace
to Corum at the end of the Chronicles of Corum, or was it a trick?  What is
the link with Gaynor and the Champion?  Is he a sort of "screw up and
you'll end up like me" warning to the Champion?

God help anyone who finds Urlik Skarsol's version of the Black Sword.  And
I thought Stormbringer was bad.  Finally, I know internal chronology is a
losing battle with Moorcock, but is it plausible that The Eternal Champion
takes place AFTER The Silver Warriors?  As Daker responds to Reignos's
summoning he sees "a great ice ocean" which he knows is getting smaller and
which he calls "the Plains of melting ice" which to me is similar to the
Ice Plains in the Silver Warriors.  A final question?  Is Moorcock alive or
dead, and how old is he/was he?

Thanks, all!

Richard L. Carreiro
rlcarr@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 06:48:55 GMT
From: elric%imryrr@sun.com (Rick Heli)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
>Okay, let's see....
>   Corum
>   Elric
>   Erekose
>   Hawkmoon
>   (Cornelius)

I haven't read the Cornelius books, so won't comment on them.  I tend to
think the Elric (surprise!) books most accessible to start with and easiest
to find...  therefore I would point the newcomer to these books first.  The
last book, Stormbringer, raises a lot of questions, however, and so I would
recommend the first two books of the Erekose series next (The Eternal
Champion and Silver Warriors (aka Phoenix in Obsidian)), but _not_ The
Dragon in the Sword.  Follow this with the Corum books and only then with
the seven Hawkmoon books as the last Hawkmoon book (The Quest for Tanelorn)
has major spoilers vis a vis the other books, in particular, Corum.  After
all of this, pick up the last Erekose book, The Dragon in the Sword.  In
short:

   Elric books
   The Eternal Champion
   The Silver Warriors
   Corum
   Hawkmoon
   The Dragon in the Sword

Rick Heli
Internet:  rheli@sun.COM
UUCP:      ...!sun!rheli	

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 18:19:28 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Moorcock question...

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro) writes:
> Now I have a question.  I reread The Silver Warriors and The Quest for
> Tanelorn last night.  They (to me) seemed to imply that Eternal
> Championship is Daker/Erekose's punishment for some great crime?  Is it
> his extermination of the human race in The Eternal Champion?  Or is it
> something having to do with refusing to wield the Black Sword?

The last one.  As some champion, he refused to weild the Black Sword and
thus was punished as John Daker remembering all his existences.

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 20:35:47 GMT
From: see1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

I showed MikeJ's original article to my SO, one of the most thoroughly-
indoctrinated Moorcock fans I know :-), and he dictated the following
objections, additions, and corrections:

{begin list}

   * Corum's sword "Traitor" (_The Bull and the Spear_) is part of
     the Black Sword

   * Hawkmoon's The Sword of the Dawn is probably part of the Black
     Sword, but the Runestaff is NOT!

   * Rackhir is a Champion and Timeras is his companion.

   * Zarozinia is Elric's second "lover."

   * Read _The Dragon in the Sword_ (Erekose" #3), where he appears as
     Prince Flamadin, w/companion Ulrich von Bek, and *no* lover; his sword
     is the Dragon Sword (probably Mournblade); Erekose" also appears as
     Clen of ClenGar in the graphic novel _The Swords of Heaven: the
     Flowers of Hell_.

   * I'd argue that Arflane's companion is Manfred Rorsefne, *not*
     Urquart.

   * Some additional Champions you left out:

     Clovis Marca	Jerry Cornell
     Prof. Faustaff	Ryan
     Asquiol		Sojan
     Alan Powys		Simon of Byzantium
     Karl Glogauer

     These two are debatable:

     Graf Ulrich von Bek     Manfred von Bek

     Over a dozen other are mentioned, but not described in detail.

{end list}

You can mail flames to me;  I'll pass 'em on.

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
University of Chicago Computation Center
staff.ellen@chip.uchicago.edu
...{ihnp4!gargoyle, oddjob}!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 13:28:39 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Book Enquiry

A long time ago, I read this book.  I'd like to read it again, so maybe
someone out there can help me remember its author and title.

As I recall, it was set in the future, when humans had spread through the
galaxy, and established a "Galactic Empire".  Well, everybody seems to
think this is just great, except one man, a mathematician, who invents a
mathematical way of predicting the future, which tells him that the Empire
is about to fall.  He decides to do something about this, and establishes
some kind of scientific settlement to preserve learning across the coming
dark ages...

It was pretty good, too.  Did the author write any more books?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 18:06:04 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: Book Enquiry

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>so maybe someone out there can help me remember its author and title.
>[...a] mathematician, who invents a mathematical way of predicting the
>future, which tells him that the Empire is about to fall.  He [...]  It
>was pretty good, too.  Did the author write any more books?

I hope this is just an April Fool's day question, but just in case you're
serious, the author in question is Isaac Asimov, and the series is the
Foundation Trilogy (originally a trilogy in the 40's/50's, with several
recent additions).  Did he write any more books? Over three hundred; he's
quite possibly the most prolific author in history. Well, most prolific
*popular* writer, anyway...

BTW, there's an interesting two part article on the mythical
"Psychohistory" (invented by the character Hari Seldon in the
above-mentioned trilogy) in the last and the current issues of Analog. The
author discusses certain areas of research that might be the start of a
true sort of Psychohistory. Although his conclusions are a little
speculative, the research he cites is very interesting. Well worth reading,
very informative.

Doug Merritt
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!eris!doug

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 7 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Moorcock & Tiptree (7 msgs) &
                           Book Request Answer & Illuminatus!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 04:24:02 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock - Eternal Champion

see1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher) writes:
>* Corum's sword "Traitor" (_The Bull and the Spear_) is part of
>  the Black Sword

I've only read that series once, and it was a while ago.  (Didn't like it
much.)  I'll take his word for it until I get a chance to re-read it.

>* Hawkmoon's The Sword of the Dawn is probably part of the Black
>  Sword, but the Runestaff is NOT!

Have him re-read _Quest for Tanelorn_.  The child explained that the
runestaff and the black sword are really different parts of the same thing.

>* Rackhir is a Champion and Timeras is his companion.

I remember Jhary-a-Conal refered to as Timeras by what's her name, that god
in Corum's second book.  What book is this from?

>* Zarozinia is Elric's second "lover."

As far as I could see, she was really just a replacement, not an actual
aspect of the consort.

>* Read _The Dragon in the Sword_ (Erekose" #3), where he appears
>  as Prince Flamadin, w/companion Ulrich von Bek, and *no* lover;

I think that the Princess was the lover.  Kind of like how Cymoil (sp?) is
to Elric and Catherine is to Jerry C.

>  his sword is the Dragon Sword (probably Mournblade);  Erekose"
>  also appears as Clen of ClenGar in the graphic novel _The Swords
>  of Heaven:  the Flowers of Hell_.

Noted.

>* I'd argue that Arflane's companion is Manfred Rorsefne, *not*
>  Urquart.

Hard to tell.  Put I wrote that list after having read that book.  Later,
re-reading _Champion of Garathorm_ for little details, I noticed that
Hawkmoon was reminicing while travelling by sled, remembered two other
ice-travelling incarnations.  One is pretty definitely Urlik, and we can
probably assume the other is Arflane.

>* Some additional Champions you left out:
> 
>  Clovis Marca			Jerry Cornell

Never heard of Marca, book please.  Heard of Cornell, but haven't read it.

>  Prof. Faustaff		Ryan

Never heard of either, books please.

>  Asquiol			Sojan

Seen the name Asquiol whenever a Champion is flipping out and hears his
names.  Books please.

>  Alan Powys			Simon of Byzantium
>  Karl Glogauer

Don't know any of these three.

>  Graf Ulrich von Bek		Manfred von Bek

What are their books?  I know one is _War Hound..._, what's the other?

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 07:14:43 GMT
From: brad@looking.uucp (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Incredible story on James Tiptree

This story appeared recently in a local paper.  It's absolutely incredible.
Anybody have more on this?

Sci-Fi Author Reveals Double Sex-Switch Secret

   New York -- In a story reminiscent of the movie ``Victor, Victoria,''
Sci-Fi author James Tiptree Jr. revealed today that he is alive and male,
in spite of the fact that many believed him to be the late Alice Sheldon.

   In ``Victor, Victoria,'' Julie Andrews played a woman pretending to be a
man pretending to be a woman.  Tiptree has been a man pretending to be a
woman pretending to be a man.

   Science Fiction readers have believed for some time now that the name
``James Tiptree Jr.'' was a pseudonym used by female writer Alice Sheldon.
Mrs. Sheldon died last year in a tragic murder-suicide, where she first
killed her invalid husband, and then herself.  Both were suffering from the
deterioration of old age.

   ``Alice was actually an old friend of mine from college,'' said Mr.
Tiptree.  ``The hoax all started when my first stories got a lot of fan
mail complimenting me on the realism of my female characters -- many
readers actually insisted that I had to be a woman to write as I did.''

   While flattered, Mr. Tiptree is reclusive, and he strongly dislikes
personal contact with his readers.  ``I hit upon the ideal solution while
talking with Alice one day,'' said Mr. Tiptree.  ``She would pretend to be
the author of my stories, and take all the attention of the fans.''

   Mrs. Sheldon intitially loved the idea, and ``James Tiptree Jr.'s real
identity'' was revealed to the public.  On rare occasions, Mrs.  Sheldon
attended Science Fiction conventions and award ceremonies on Mr. Tiptree's
behalf.  ``I can't stand the `Fia Wolf'[sic]* people, and Alice didn't mind
them, so it was an ideal situation.'' explained Mr. Tiptree.

   ``Fia Wolf'' refers to the cult of Sci-Fi fandom, where fans spend all
their free time reading books, watching films and television programs and
travelling the world visiting fan conventions.

   Later, Mrs. Sheldon grew tired of the game, and became almost as
reclusive as Mr. Tiptree.

   For a long time, Mr. Tiptree's secret was known only to the Tiptree and
Sheldon families, Mr. Tiptree's publishers, his agent Virginia Wood, and of
course, the Internal Revenue Service.  Things almost got out when computer
operators at one of Tiptree's publishers noticed that royalty checks
weren't going to Mrs. Sheldon as they expected.  ``A few words in the right
place and some books with authentic autographs solved that problem,'' he
explained.

   Mr. Tiptree has revealed the hoax to the world because he is
contemplating returning to the field.  ``Alice's death really shook me
up,'' he said.  ``For a long time I planned to never write again; now I'm
not so sure, so I figured it was time to reveal the truth.''

   ``Besides,'' smiled Mr. Tiptree, ``I figured the first of April would be
a fitting day to reveal the whole thing.  It's been a sort of joke on the
whole Science Fiction community, although I know some readers won't be
laughing.''

   Tiptree is unsure whether he will actually publish more works.
``Mainly, I wanted to get this off my chest,'' he explained.  ``I'm pretty
old, now, and I doubt I can deal with fans any better than I could before
- -- especially in light of this revelation.''

* I assume he said FIAWOL, for "Fandom Is A Way Of Life" 

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd. 
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 08:29:10 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Sheldongate?

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>I came across the following in today's Tribune--I am utterly astonished!

I am more than astounded.  I am disgusted.  This has all the earmarks of an
incredibly cruel hoax.  I have gotten to know a number of folks who have
corresponded with Alice Sheldon, and I don't think they will feel too
sympathetic with this crap.  A point by point rebuttal follows:

>In a story reminiscent of the movie "Victor, Victoria", science fiction
>author James Tiptree Jr. revealed today that he is alive and male, in
>spite of the fact that many believed him to be the late Alice Sheldon.

Including Sheldon herself, who never, after the 'secret' was out, denied
being Tiptree, and who showed great pride in her work in her correspondence
with other SF writers and fans.  Sheldon developed several intimate
friendships with other writers, and this would have been a betrayal of all
that those friendships meant.  The equivalent, in its own way, of Mahatma
Ghandi saying "Oh, it was all a big joke".

>"Fiwolf" refers to the cult of Sci-Fi fandom, where fans spend all their
>free time reading books, watching films and television programs and
>travelling the world visiting fan conventions.

The term is FIAWOL, not Fiawolf, and this is a superbly stupid definition
of fandom in any case.  In any event, the use of FIAWOL (Fandom Is A Way Of
Life) is a peculiarity, when the person who is using the term denies any
contact with fandom.  How did he learn the term, and how does he know what
its common usage is, if he hates fandom so much?  And if he knows enough to
know what it means, why does he not know that it isn't used, so far as I've
seen in my association with fandom, to refer to fandom in the generic, as
he implies it is?

>For a long time, Mr. Tiptree's secret was known only to the Tiptree and
>Sheldon families, Mr. Tiptree's publishers, his agent Virginia Wood, and
>of course, the Internal Revenue Service.

Yeah, sure.  All of those folks who knew, and not a single one of them who
thought of mentioning this rather important fact at the time of Tip's
death.  All of them quite willing to allow all of Tip's fans and friends to
continue to believe a lie.  You want to sell me a bridge somewhere, while
you're at it?

Also, Tip's agent was, if I'm not mistaken, Virginia Kidd, not Virginia
Wood.  I'm just surprised that they didn't claim Virginia Wolfe.

>``Besides,'' smiled Mr. Tiptree, "I figured the first of April would be a
>fitting day to reveal the whole thing. It's been a sort of joke on the
>whole Science Fiction community, although I know some readers won't be
>laughing.''

Including this one.

Sorry.  Can't buy it.  Can't buy it for a second.  There's too much
documentation for the Alice Sheldon/James Tiptree connection.  There's far
too many connections between Tiptree's stories and the known facts of Alice
Sheldon's life.  And more important than either of those is the fact that I
cannot accept that the many professionals in the field who have had contact
with Alice Sheldon over the years are so gullible as to have bought this
hoax if it did take place.  Tiptree's stories are much too personal, and
much too telling, to be able to be passed off like that.

This seems to me to be one of the most perverse and cruel April Fools
stunts I've ever heard of.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 11:46:39 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Sheldongate?

rfm%urth (Richard McAllister) writes:
>Um, could you quote one or two newspapers by actual name, issue date,

Try the Oakland Tribune, 1 April 88.  That was the paper I referenced in my
original article--there's only one Tribune in the Bay Area, and it was
today's paper at the time.  Sorry I don't have the page number --I'm
usually very cheap about newspapers and read them out of trash cans, so I
don't keep old ones lying around my office all that long.

I can't give a reference for Alice Sheldon working at the CIA--I know I've
read this somewhere--didn't OMNI once interview her or something?

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 16:17:49 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Sheldongate?

rfm%urth (Richard McAllister) writes:
>>Um, could you quote one or two newspapers by actual name, issue date,
>
>Try the Oakland Tribune, 1 April 88.  That was the paper I referenced in
>my original article--there's only one Tribune in the Bay Area, and it was
>today's paper at the time.

That's funny. I don't remember seeing it, and I think I would have noticed
something that hits so close to home.

Are you sure it was the tribune? I wonder why neither the SF Chronicle or
the San Jose Merc carried it -- something like this would have had to come
off a newswire. Perhaps you got the Enquirer by mistake?

>I can't give a reference for Alice Sheldon working at the CIA--I know I've
>read this somewhere--didn't OMNI once interview her or something?

Sheldon was a serious, almost quirky recluse. Besides the fact that I
consider it VERY strange that a recluse would agree to act as a beard to an
even more reclusive recluse, Sheldon actively avoided publicity. I can't
think of a single published interview offhand, much less one in a
publication as large as Omni. When Tiptree's real identity was made public
by Science Fiction Chronicle a few years back, Sheldon responded by
stopping writing for a while.

This whole thing makes no sense. Before I'll buy it I have to see
references that'll stand up. A date/page/paper with a newswire attribution
that I can call up and verify. Or perhaps an appropriate comment in Locus.
I doubt I'll see it any time soon.

James Tiptree, Jr. died in a very unhappy and traumatic way. Why can't we
do everyone including her memory a favor and leave her dead?

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 23:02:18 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.uucp
Subject: Tiptree/Sheldon

Although chuq can't think of any published interviews of Tiptree/Sheldon, I
can.  In Charles Platt's Dream Makers II, there is a significant interview
with T/S, complete with biographical information about T/S and her
spymaster husband.  Their fate should not be surprising to anyone who has
read the interview.  It was reprinted (or may have came first) in Isaac
Asimov's SF Magazine around the 82/83/84 period.  I am "only" 98% sure that
the person who did Dream Makers and Dream Makers II was Charles Platt...

As for the newspaper story, it seems pretty clear that it was published,
since so many people posted it (unless it is an elaborate net.hoax).  But
it's also bullshit, so let it die.  April 1 is over.  Get back to the more
serious nonsense that belongs here.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 22:26:02 GMT
From: krj@msudoc.ee.mich-state.edu (Ken Josenhans)
Subject: Re: Sheldon/Tiptree

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>...Sheldon actively avoided publicity. I can't think of a single published
>interview offhand, much less one in a publication as large as Omni.

The best source of information I know on Sheldon & Tiptree was the 3 pages
of obituary material in Locus, July 1987.  Reference is made to an
interview in Charles Platt's book DREAM MAKERS, a collection of interviews
with SF writers; I haven't read it, though.

The details in the Locus obit should leave it quite clear that the story
recently posted here was a cruel hoax.  If that's not enough, an
acquaintance of mine is Sheldon's literary executor and is currently
reviewing the proofs of a posthumous Tiptree short story collection.

Ken Josenhans
UUCP:...{uunet,rutgers}!umix!itivax!msudoc!krj
     ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj
BITNET:  13020KRJ@MSU
ARPA: JOSENHANSKR@clvax1.cl.msu.edu       

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 01:39:17 GMT
From: krj@msudoc.ee.mich-state.edu (Ken Josenhans)
Subject: Re: Sheldon/Tiptree

krj@msudoc.UUCP (Ken Josenhans) writes:
>The best source of information I know on Sheldon & Tiptree was the 3 pages
>of obituary material in Locus, July 1987.  Reference is made to an
>interview in Charles Platt's book DREAM MAKERS, a collection of interviews
>with SF writers....

Ooops, Frank Hollander is correct; the title is DREAM MAKERS II by Charles
Platt.  The edition in the MSU Library is a trade paperback from Berkeley.
Very good interview on Sheldon's life leading to the birth of Tiptree. (I'm
just back from reading it.)

Asides on Tiptree: two contributors to the Locus obituary cite her 1973
story "The Girl Who Was Plugged In" as a key work in the development of
cyberpunk.  It's an excellent story, originally published in Silverberg's
anthology NEW DIMENSIONS 3; don't know which Tiptree collection it appears
in, but it could be added to the canonical lists of cyberpunk fiction which
float through this group.  Secondly: Can anyone report on Sheldon's 1946
New Yorker story?

Ken Josenhans
UUCP:...{uunet,rutgers}!umix!itivax!msudoc!krj
     ...ihnp4!msudoc!krj
BITNET:  13020KRJ@MSU
ARPA: JOSENHANSKR@clvax1.cl.msu.edu       

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 19:11:29 GMT
From: jfbrule@cmx.npac.syr.edu (Jim Brule)
Subject: Re: Book Enquiry

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>As I recall, it was set in the future, when humans had spread through the
>galaxy, and established a "Galactic Empire".  Well, ...  It was pretty
>good, too.  Did the author write any more books?

It's been a long time since I read that one. As I recall, it was a
collection of short stories, most a page or two long, all with a terrible
pun at the end.

The name was "Bred Any Good Rooks Lately?" by James Charlton. I don't
believe he wrote any others. Yet.

Jim Brule
jfbrule@amax.npac.syr.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 20:14:00 GMT
From: reynolds_l@apollo.uucp (Lee Reynolds)
Subject: Illuminatus!

Greetings, all!

A long time ago....I read the Illuminatus! trilogy.

Much later, I read "Masks of the Illuminati"

Okay, I'll bite - who can provide a complete list of all the books which
are associated with these wonderful premises?

I would really like to obtain ALL of them.

Not much luck though.

Suggestions as to where I can get them?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 7 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Politics in SF (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 04:01:29 GMT
From: erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus)
Subject: Books with Allusions to Objectivism, Libertarianism, or Individualism

Several weeks ago, I posted a message describing a number of individiualist
science fiction books, and asked for titles that other people had read.
Below is my original message and the replies I received.  Thanks to
everyone who replied.  If anyone has more titles, I'd love to hear of them.
In response to someone who asked, I'm just creating the list for fun.  I'm
not planning on publishing any bibliography or analysis.

>As someone sympathetic to objectivism (small-o only) and other
>individualist philosophies/politics, I have been collecting fiction,
>mostly science-fiction, which are either about libertarianism or have
>allusions.  I'm listing the books I know of here and would love to hear
>from other people.  Any replies sent to me will be summarized and posted.
>I would also like to see a list of Prometheus Award winners, if anyone has
>one.

From:  Ellen Spertus

Most famous is Robert Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, which has
a revolution on the moon which parallels the American revolution (i.e. is
libertarian).  One character is asked if he is a Randite, and another is
called their John Galt.

L. Neil Smith has written a series of books (of varying quality) about an
alternate universe whose history diverged shortly after the American
Revolution, with the result being that this America lived up to the ideals
of the revolution.  The first and best book in the series is _The
Probability Broach_, with hilarious allusions and caricatures.  There are
about six other books in the series.

F. Paul Wilson wrote my favorite book on this list, _An Enemy of the
State_, recently out of print, about an anarchist revolution.  Of all the
books here, it is the closest to being truly philosophical.  Among other
things, Wilson shows the difference between nihilists and (individualist)
anarchists.  Very good reading.  The mentor of the hero is named Adrynna!
I'll leave you that one to figure out yourself :-).  Wilson has written two
other science fiction books that I know of: _Healer_ and _Wheels Within
Wheels_ which are not as blatantly individualist but still pretty good.
I've read one of his many horror books, which contains an allusion to Rand
near the beginning.  (A doctor states that if a socialist medical law
passes, he'll "shrug".)

F. Neil Shulman, the final member in the libertarian-authors-with-first-
initial-and-four-letter-middle-name clique, has written _Alongside Night_
and Prometheus Award winning _The Rainbow Cadenza_.  _Alongside Night_ is a
short light book set in an America in the not too distant future.  It is
fun to read but the writing isn't great.  The writing and characterization
are a lot better in _Alongside Night_, which is set in the more distant
future.

James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and
_Code of the Lifemaker_.  Neither have any explicit references to
libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist.  My favorite is
_Code of the Lifemaker_ whose characters include a (fake) psychic and a
debunker obviously based on The Amazing Randi.  Both books are a little
slow until the two differing groups meet, so skimming is excusable
(recommended?).

From: mok@pawl.rpi.edu 

   If you're interested in politics, libertarianism or the like you should
try almost ANYTHING by Mack Reynolds. I don't remember many of the titles
off the top of my head (he wrote a LOT and I haven't read most of them),
but they are all good and almost all politically inspired.
   The only problem I have with Mack Reynolds is that a fair number of his
books are set in one of 3 different worlds all of which have a oppressive
government or other serious problems and he writes the books at different
intervals in their history. You get to see these world slowly, but steadily
going from bad to worse... At least I have had the satisfaction of seeing
things finally STARTING to look up in one of these worlds, but it gets
REALLY depressing when you know that the future of the world you're reading
about is even worse than the present.

From: joel@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU

The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin.  A very good book that gives insight
on how an anarchist civilization might work - or might not.

Read it.  Especially good to compare with Atlas Shrugged.

From: josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall)

There are two short stories that are must reading on any individualist's
list:

Lipidleggin' by the same F Paul Wilson
 (this can be found in The Survival of Freedom edited by Pournelle)

and

And Then There Were None  by Eric Frank Russell
(I don't know offhand where this can be found, check classic
anthologies)

From: vohra@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Pavan Vohra)

josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes:
>And Then There Were None by Eric Frank Russell (I don't know offhand where
>this can be found, check classic anthologies)

Try _Science Fiction Hall of Fame_.

From: mcb@oddjob.uchicago.edu

   One obvious collection would be the Discordian stuff.  This is very
strange material, but a lot of it has to do with individualism.  The two
classics that I know of are the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson
and Robin?  Shea, and the Principia Discordia.
   The Principia isn't really fiction, but Illuminatus is, and a number of
Wilson's other books (Schroedinger's cat, the Illuminati papers, etc) come
somewhere in between.

From: lve@EDDIE.MIT.EDU (Lucien Van Elsen)

Saw your posting on the net - all my favorites too, plus a few I hadn't
heard of.  I stumbled across another interesting story with a libertarian
bent just a couple weeks ago - The Ungoverned by Vernor Vinge.  It's about
a post-nuclear America that is "ungoverned" - everything is done by
contracts.  The story isn't the best, but it has an interesting background.

From: andreag@Psych.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Gallagher)

Don't forget Vernor Vinge, who's _The_Peace_War_ is based in a
semi-anarchistic society (eventually), and his _True_Names_ has a short
story (forget the title) about a statist nation attacking an anarchist
area.  Well written, too.

From: John.Wenn@GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU

The Prometheus Award Winners that I know about (I haven't heard about the
1986 hall of fame entries one way or the other) are:

Prometheus Award [October]
1979   "Wheels Within Wheels" by F. Paul Wilson
1980   "The Probability Broach" By L. Neil Smith
1981   <None>
1982   <None>
1983   "Voyage to Yesteryear" by James Hogan
   Hall of Fame: "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein
       "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand
1984   "The Rainbow Cadenza" by J. Neil Schulman
   Hall of Fame: "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury
       "1984" by George Orwell
1985   <None>
   Hall of Fame: "Trader to the Stars" by Poul Anderson
       "The Great Exposition" by Eric Frank Russell
1986   "The Cybernetic Samurai" by Victor Milan
1987   "Marooned in Real Time" by Vernor Vinge
   Hall of Fame: "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein
       "Anthem" by Ayn Rand

From: dougf@tybalt.caltech.edu (Douglas J. Freyburger)

Poul Anderson is a libertarian who has included his philosophy into much of
his writing.  His main future-history line with the Poleseotechnic League,
Nickolas van Rijn, the Terran Empire and Dominic Flandry is filled with it.
The Poleseotechnic League is a libertarian co-op of industrial space-faring
companies (that breaks up eventually as all libertarian systems
historically have so far).

From: Brad Templeton <brad%looking.uucp@RELAY.CS.NET>

I'm surprised you didn't list one of the most widely known works, namely
the Illuminatus Trilogy, by Wilson & Shea.  It's still in print.

If you haven't read Vernor Vinge, in particular "the Ungoverned" and "The
Peace War", you'll want to check that out.

From: esunix!loosemor@cs.utah.edu (Sandra Loosemore)

Here are a few that I know about:

"The Girl Who Owned a City", by O.T. Nelson.  This is a book for children
ages 10-12 or thereabouts.  It is definitely Objectivist propaganda.

Any of Kay Nolte Smith's books.  Her first, "The Watcher", won an Edgar
award for best mystery novel of the year, and the others are just as good.
These aren't traditional whodunnit-type mysteries; they're more suspense
stories.  She writes about marvelous characters and her books have a
distinctly feminist slant as well.  Read "Requiem for a Soprano" after
you've read Barbara [Message accidentally cut]

From: "Michelle M. Gardner" <ACS1W%UHUPVM1.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>

   I read your request in SFLovers, and here's a couple of suggestions.
First of all, you should read Ayn Rand's "Anthem" which deals with personal
liberty v. the state.  Awesome book.

   Second, you might want to take a look at Christopher Stasheff's Warlock
books.  They're highly entertaining and contain, for the most part, classic
church-state conflicts.

From: wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (William Linden)

>And Then There Were None  by Eric Frank Russell
>(I don't know offhand where this can be found, check classic
>anthologies)

This forms the last third of the novel THE GREAT EXPLOSION. I have lost my
copy, and would appreciate pointers to another. It was ignored,
outrageously, in Ballantine's reprints of Russell.

From: stephens@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Greg Stephens)

Thanks for the recommendation.  I get a newsletter from a Liberterian/ Free
Enterprise book club in NY (can't remember the name now) that list a few SF
books that they liked.  The only one I have read is Heinleins' _Moon is a
Harsh Mistress_ which I liked.

I am curious if anyone has read and can recommend any of the other books on
their list (off the top of my head) they are:

Anderson, Poul     _Orion Shall Rise_
Koman, Victor      _The Jehovah Contract_
Smith, L. Neil     _The Probability Broach_

From: gls@odyssey.ATT.COM (g.l.sicherman)

Such a book is _The Eye in the Pyramid_ by R. Shea and R. A. Wilson.  It's
s.f./fantasy.  One of the characters, Atlanta Hope, has a big cult novel
called _Telemachus Sneezed,_--and a cult called "God's Lightning" to go
with it!  They're both *very* individualistic books, maybe even too
individualistic for a novice like you.  You might start with Van Vogt's
_The World of Null-A,_ in which the main character gets killed in the
middle, and a clone of him starts living the rest of the novel for him.
You can't get much more individualistic than that!

From: eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond)

Ellen R. Spertus writes:
>James Hogan wrote Prometheus Award winning _Voyage from Yesteryear_ and
>_Code of the Lifemaker_.  Neither have any explicit references to
>libertarianism or objectivism, but both are individualist.

Ah. Obviously you haven't yet read Hogan's _Voyage_From_Yesteryear_, which
is explicitly anarcho-individualist. I also recommend Vernor Vinge's work;
most notably _The_Peace_War_, _Marooned_In_Realtime_, and the bridge
novelette _The_Ungoverned_Lands_ (recently reissued in the excellent
_True_Names_And_ Other_Dangers anthology); all three are explicitly
anarcho-libertarian.

I also recommend Marc Stiegler's _David's_Sling_, not explicitly
libertarian but very interesting for its suggestions on how information-age
decentralist thinking can beat industrial-age statism (though he never uses
the latter label).

From: turpin@sally.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)

A classic in this genre is "We", by Zamyatin. It ranks right up there with
"Brave New World" and "1984".

PS: Since you show some interest in objectivism, allow me to recommend
Barbara Branden's biography of Rand. Rand is a person about whom it would
be very easy for a biographer either to adulate or mercilessly condemn.
Branden does very well at presenting her life without doing too much of
either, though I think her appraisal of Rand's significance in the epilogue
is biased by her closeness to her subject.

From: gsmith@BOSCO.BERKELEY.EDU

wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (William Linden) writes:
>josh@topaz.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes:
>>And Then There Were None  by Eric Frank Russell
>
>This forms the last third of the novel THE GREAT EXPLOSION. I have lost my
>copy, and would appreciate pointers to another. It was ignored,
>outrageously, in Ballantine's reprints of Russell.

 I might add that Hogan's "Voyage From Yesteryear", which was mentioned in
a previous article, owes a great deal to Eric Frank Russell's "And Then
There Were None". Makes me wonder how individual some individualists are.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 13:11:18 GMT
From: troly@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re:  Objectivist sf

I thought it would be useful to the confused to define Objectivism and
Libertarianism and explain their place in science fiction. So I am posting
an email I sent to someone who was requesting these definitions.

Kay Gunnar Hvgev Hoegel writes (in response to an article by Lisa Evans):
>Would you please be so kind to define your views of
>Objectivism/Libertarianism? I , as a traditional european, reading SF like
>Lem, Ballard Aldiss, Brunner etc. don't understand the meanings of O and L
>SF.  Libertarianism is, for me, a deviance of traditional European
>anarchism?  Am I right or are there more nuances, that I don't know?  What
>means objectivism in USA (objectivistic SF)?

   Hello Kay. I am not Lisa Evans but maybe I can help. Objectivism refers
to the strongly pro-capitalist philosophy of Ayn Rand, who was an American
immigrant from the Soviet Union. She rebelled strongly against both
Socialism and Fascism and also reactionary regimes (like Tsarist Russia,
where she grew up); and she advocated sharp reduction of the powers of
government. There are many other facets to her philosophy, such as the
assertion that morality is based on epistomology. Though she came from a
not-so-observant Jewish family, she rejected all religion. Her Jewish
background and Atheism is probably what led at least one edition of the
Encyclopedia Brittanica to characterise her as "anti-Christian". Her
popularity among science fiction fen stems from the fact the she chose to
make the definitive statement of her philosophy in a science fiction novel,
_Atlas Shrugged_.

  Libertarianism is a sort of umbrella term for groups which advocate a
sharp reduction in the powers of government. Objectivists form one such
group but there are many others. American anarchism is the most extreme
form of libertarianism. Despite the prominence of some immigrants among the
anarchists, it is quite different from European anarchism. It tends to be
pro-capitalist and to reject violent revolution. It rejects institutions
which employ coercion but does not reject institutions in general. The type
of anarchism advocated by Emma Goldman, and that of the IWW (wobblies) is
dead in the US.

  The mildest form of libertarianism advocates something like the original
American government, but with a universal franchise.  There are many
variations. There is a small political party called the Libertarian party
which is trying to weld these disparate elements into political influence.
Party officers are required to sign a statement saying that they reject the
seeking of social goals through the use of force.

  There are many science fiction writers who advocate some sort of
libertarianism. On the mild side are Poul Anderson and (somewhat less mild)
Robert A. Heinlein. Vernor Vinge is the best writer among the anarchists.
Libertarian views are much more common in science fiction than in other
literature.

  I hope this helps.

Yours, Bret

troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 7 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - Politics in SF (3 msgs) &
                                 Aliens & World Classes & 
                                 Conventions

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 05:14:22 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re:  Objectivist sf

troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU (Bret Jolly) writes:
>I thought it would be useful to the confused to define Objectivism and
>Libertarianism and explain their place in science fiction.  [...]  refers
>to the strongly pro-capitalist philosophy of Ayn Rand, who was an American
>immigrant from the Soviet Union.  [...]  Her popularity among science
>fiction fen stems from the fact the she chose to make the definitive
>statement of her philosophy in a science fiction novel, _Atlas Shrugged_.

Perhaps more to the point, science fiction afficionados tend to be
interested in nontraditional ideas...although as defensive of their
existing pet ideas as anyone, they are sometimes more open to *radically*
new ideas. Or at the very least, are close minded in their belief in highly
nontraditional ideas [ 1/2 :-) ] Readers of this newsgroup of course fall
in the first category, being 100% open minded [ 100% :-) ]

Ayn Rand, in all her writings, expresses strongly individualistic ideas,
such as intellectual/achievement meritocracy, which very often appeals to
nontraditionalists.

Personally speaking, I was fascinated by Atlas Shrugged and by The
Fountainhead, in that they expressed some of my highest ideals (e.g. the
importance of achievement, productivity, creativity, etc), and illustrated
some very-easy-to-identify-with frustrations about the "great unwashed
masses" (quote from different author) not appreciating, or actively
opposing, these noble ideas.

However, she wrote in an *extremely* bitter and angry fashion, which is
easy to sympathise with, but equally easy to criticize. She likely would
have been far more influential (mind you, she was very influential as it
was) had she undergone some (successful) psychoanalysis to dump those
negative feelings...they strongly colored her writings and skewed many of
her arguments into illogical forms that could have been constructed in a
far more unassailable fashion, had there been less emotional influence.

Similarly, although I strongly believe in *limited* government, it seems
clear (to me, anyway) that the Libertarian party goes too far in appeasing
their splinter anarchist groups, and takes on too much of an anarchistic
flavor in their platforms as a result. I usually register Libertarian (to
make a statement, if nothing else), but it's pretty hard to vote for their
candidates (given their platforms)!

Science fiction readers, far more than the general populace, appreciate the
importance of paradigms such as nonlinear systems dynamic, chaos, fractals,
strange attractors, multivalued logic, General Systems Theory, holistic
thinking, feedback loops/cybernetics, homeostatic mechanisms, etc.  I.e.
paradigms which point out that absolute principles tend to fail in
particular examples (there may be absolutes, but it's awfully hard to
formulate them).

In particular, it seems that principles such as anarchy, and even
libertarianism, *sometimes* lead to unworkable solutions even though they
are very rational *in general*. For instance, Laissez Faire economics is
unstable in the same way that anarchy is unstable (unstable == negative
equilibrium): any single power group can overturn that solution by exerting
force in a different direction.

Science fiction fans often latch onto some particular general principle or
solution (such as pure Laissez Faire economics) up until the point that
some other novel clearly demonstrates exactly where that general philosophy
fails. Then they find another one (hopefully a blend of their old and new
philosophies). I claim that, after a sufficient period of time, this leads
the (open minded and well read) science fiction reader to a much more
balanced and accurate world view than that of the general populace.

The above statement emphatically does *not* apply to people who stick to
narrow genres (Star Trek, Gor, Conan) nor to those who end up being close
minded once they've picked their philosophy.

Doug Merritt
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!eris!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 12:51:46 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu
Subject: ^Z

[This is co-written with Gene Ward Smith, who objects to the "Subject".]

doug@eris (Doug Merritt) writes:
>Perhaps more to the point, science fiction afficionados tend to be
>interested in nontraditional ideas...

They also tend to think that by rationalizing a complete bunch of total
bullshit that no one over the age of 5 would swallow except when under the
influence of Old Overcoat, that they've achieved deep and significant
thought.

>Ayn Rand, in all her writings, expresses strongly individualistic ideas,
>such as intellectual/achievement meritocracy, which very often appeals to
>nontraditionalists.

More than that, she supports it all with this complicated pseudobabble
logical sounding bullshit, of just the sort that science-fiction fans are
so happy to believe and think themselves bright for doing so.  A=A: like
wow, man, gag me with a cofunctor.

>Science fiction readers, far more than the general populace, appreciate
>the importance of paradigms such as nonlinear systems dynamic, chaos,
>fractals, strange attractors, multivalued logic, General Systems Theory,
>holistic thinking, feedback loops/cybernetics, homeostatic mechanisms,
>etc.

They also, far more than the general populace, appreciate the importance of
hyperspace drives, Martian flat cats, pointed ears, non-Aristotelian logic,
dianetics--the modern science of mental health!, Hieronymous machines, bad
singing, galactic empires, the 3 laws of robotics, Puppeteers, Kzinti
ambassadors, liquid%genius%aliens, Little Fuzzy aliens, the Force,
levitation, teleportation, psychic mind blasts, elves, dwarves, wizards,
trolls, dungeons, dragons, Dungeons and Dragons, dodecahedral dice, 10
volume trilogies, bad puns, and most important of all, the term "SF"!

>I.e. paradigms which point out that absolute principles tend to fail
>in particular examples (there may be absolutes, but it's awfully hard
>to formulate them).

See what I mean about utter bullshit?

>Science fiction fans often latch onto some particular general principle or
>solution (such as pure Laissez Faire economics) up until the point that
>some other novel clearly demonstrates exactly where that general
>philosophy fails.

Yes.  Too bad they can't figure it out on their own: a fictional reality is
*designed* to work by the author.  They don't call it "suspension of
disbelief" for nothing.  Maybe they should rename it "suspension of
intelligence"?

>Then they find another one (hopefully a blend of their old and new
>philosophies). I claim that, after a sufficient period of time, this leads
>the (open minded and well read) science fiction reader to a much more
>balanced and accurate world view than that of the general populace.

I severely doubt this.  Perhaps you've been reading too much science
fiction?

>The above statement emphatically does *not* apply to people who stick
>to narrow genres (Star Trek, Gor, Conan) nor to those who end up being
>close minded once they've picked their philosophy.

Gee, I read Conan comics for years before I read much science fiction.  No
wonder I'm such a completely obnoxious bastard.

I don't think the problem is one of being "closed-minded".  I think the
problem is one of being "stupid", compounded with the self-induced be-lief
that, by virtue of being a science fiction reader, one is by some sort of
magical definition, "open-minded" and "intelligent".

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

and 

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 17:25:41 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: ^Z

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>doug@eris (Doug Merritt) writes:
>>Perhaps more to the point, science fiction afficionados tend to be
>>interested in nontraditional ideas...
>
>They also tend to think that by rationalizing a complete bunch of total
>bullshit that no one over the age of 5 would swallow except when under the
>influence of Old Overcoat, that they've achieved deep and signifi- cant
>thought.

Sometimes true. Often true of the general populace, too. So what?

>>I.e. paradigms which point out that absolute principles tend to fail in
>>particular examples (there may be absolutes, but it's awfully hard to
>>formulate them).
>
>See what I mean about utter bullshit?

I take this to mean that you strongly believe that there *are* absolute
principles, and that they are *easy* to formulate, and that furthermore you
believe that to be so self-evident that anyone who disagrees warrants
disgusted swearing rather than a reasoned explanation.

Curious point of view. Especially considering that I actually offered some
specific examples, such as that Laissez Faire economics made a great deal
of sense, but that it did not contend very well with monopolistic trade
practices. Matthew did not address this example of a failed absolute
principle.

>>Science fiction fans often latch onto some particular general principle
>>or solution (such as pure Laissez Faire economics) up until the point
>>that some other novel clearly demonstrates exactly where that general
>>philosophy fails.
>
>Yes.  Too bad they can't figure it out on their own: a fictional reality
>is *designed* to work by the author.  They don't call it "suspension of
>disbelief" for nothing.  Maybe they should rename it "suspension of
>intelligence"?

I agree in part, however coming from a mathemetician I'm surprised...  it's
impossible to figure out *everything* on one's own. Getting ideas from
outside sources is demonstrably extremely useful, whether we're talking
about speculative novels, or about the history of mathematics.

> [...] No wonder I'm such a completely obnoxious bastard.

I wouldn't know about that, but certainly the tone of your posting is none
too friendly.

>I don't think the problem is one of being "closed-minded".  I think the
>problem is one of being "stupid", compounded with the self-induced belief
>that, by virtue of being a science fiction reader, one is by some sort of
>magical definition, "open-minded" and "intelligent".

I had some smiley-faces attached to my initial comments on this subject,
but not on the later one. Certainly it's a point of view that is easy to
argue with, however it's not at all clear why it provokes this railing
against stupidity. Being stupid can be a problem, yes; by your lights
perhaps I'm stupid, and perhaps self-indulgent for thinking that reading
(too much) science fiction induces certain positive traits.

But again, so what? The vehement disagreement in this posting is pretty
clear, but beyond that I'm not really sure what the point is supposed to
be.  Matthew usually writes pretty lucidly...except in cases like this,
where he is so offended that he seems to lose the ability (or desire?) to
explain his thinking. Doubly strange considering he had help writing it.

Doug Merritt
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!eris!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 28 Mar 88 11:01:31 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Favorite Aliens

cc1@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> I guess my vote for favorite aliens has to go those wonderfully unique
> and inventive "humans" created by...oh, I forgot the author!

I showed this to my friend Ych!tarbiak'ern, and this was his reply:

"Humans? A poor example of fiction. Why, they are stereotyped beyond
belief.  And such an unbelievable race too! They seem so - ashamed, is that
your word? - of everything they do. Mating, disposal of bodily waste -
these are perfectly natural functions, indeed no species of advanced life
can survive without them. Yet these humans feel the need to hide when they
do these things.  And so many of them are reluctant do defend their way of
life in combat when such becomes necessary. They feel it wrong to kill
others of their own species.  Yet this species also kills members of other
species quite freely. This is like saying that suicide is wrong, but murder
of another is acceptable. And they regard such killing as a challenge! Now,
my species also enjoys - "hunting".  But for us, it is a challenge. We
don't take advanced weapons, or fast craft on such hunts. We pursue our
quarry on foot. And only quarry which has a chance of defeating us in
single combat. Otherwise, where is the sport?

These humans also seem to regard the gathering of wealth as something to be
ashamed of. Yet this is as natural a function to a healthy society as
eating is to a healthy being. But of course, humans are so ashamed of such
natural functions. They often hide, even to eat!

No, such a race is scientifically impossible! If its members are reluctant
to eat, dispose of waste, or mate, it would die out within a couple of
millenia at most!

What? You say this race exists? And it produced this machine? I must study
this peculiar species some time. But for my own curiosity only. My friends
at home would never believe in such creatures, any more than I did."

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 88 18:39:00 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uucp (Eugene Tramaglino)
Subject: Re: World Classes

>Can anyone give me a list of the alphabetic world classes used in Star
>Trek and several other science fiction settings?  For instance, an
>Earth-type planet is class M.  Thanks...

>They aren't "world" classes - they're stellar classes, used to classify
>stars, mainly on the basis of their temperature.  Check out any basic
>astronomy book for more detail.

NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo . . . 

If they were stellar classes, then Earth herself would be a Class G planet;
we orbit a G5 or a G3 star (something like that).

Also, from THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, pg 207, Pt II, Ch 3:

  "This is also why the _Enterprise_ confines most of her travels to Class
M worlds, those closely approximating the size and conditions of Earth."

Note: "worlds" not "systems."

But, to add my best info, no comprehensive list of Planetary Classes has
been published/descibed/whatever, but the planet of the Androids in "I,
Mudd" was a Class K world --- "suitable for living under pressurized domes"
- --- and that's from memory, so I could be off.

Eugene Tramaglino
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu    

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 03:39:05 GMT
From: moss!hoqax!bicker@att.arpa (The Resource, Poet of Quality)
Subject: I-CON VII

				 I-CON VII

New York's Largest Convention of Science Fiction, Science Fact, and Fantasy
is coming to the State University of New York at Stony Brook

			  April 15, 16, 17, 1988

Guest of Honor:     Poul Anderson

Special Guests:     Anthony Ainley ("The Master from Doctor Who")
                    Harlan Ellison (Essayist and Novelist extrordinaire)
                    Richard Arnold (from the Parmount Star Trek Office)

        Hal Clement - Samuel Delany - Charles Sheffield
         Pat Morrissey - Barry Malzberg - Lloyd Eshbach
                Tim Hildebrandt - Bob Eggleton

PLUS over a dozen movies (including ROBOCOP and all four STAR TREK films, A
Boy and His Dog, Back to the Future, Heavy Metal, ...)  Lectures, Panel
Discussions, 2 Continuous Video Rooms, An Art Show, Large Dealer's Room,
Special Events, Gaming and much more.

Latest info is available through bicker@hoqam.UUCP (...ihnp4!hoqam!bicker)

I'd like to get together with other net-ers there.  Email me if you're
interested.

If you need directions to Stony Brook or hotel information, e-mail me where
you're coming from.

I-CON Programming Hours:
                    Friday    6pm - 2am?
                    Saturday  10am - 3am?
                    Sunday    10am - 8pm?
     (Gaming has their own schedule--well, you know...)

Special Events:

     I-CON Banquet        5:30 pm, Saturday  
                          Enjoy a fine meal with all our guests.

     Cabaret              8:30 pm, Saturday  
                          Our guests put on a show you won't forget.

     Meet the Pros Party  10pm, Saturday     
                          Meet and talk with our guests in an
                          informal atmosphere.  Refreshments will
                          be served.

(Tickets are limited for special events, so send you payment now to insure
you place at one or more of these events.)

B. Kohn, I-CON VI Committee
...ihnp4!hoqam!bicker
(201) 949-5850

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************


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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 11 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Dragons (22 msgs) & Atlantis Novels &
                       Excalibur (2 msgs) & Micro Reviews

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 22:29:00 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Request books with friendly dragons

Here's another request to pick the brains of this large mass of readers:

To further the research I am doing, I need all the sf/fantasy novels that
have dragons as main or supporting characters AND those dragons fall into
the benevolent/kind/nice/friendly/pet category.  That is, DRAGONRIDERS OF
PERN qualifies, but DRAGONSLAYER and DRAGON'S BANE types would not.

It's ok if the dragon is a fire breathing ornery cuss occasionally, but
they must show a liking for people or a person.  There must be tons of
these books out there (I loved the Dragonrider series).

Thanks in advance.

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 16:40:45 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) writes:
> To further the research I am doing, I need all the sf/fantasy novels that
> have dragons as main or supporting characters AND those dragons fall into
> the benevolent/kind/nice/friendly/pet category.

Joel Rosenberg's "Guardian's of the Flame" series of four books:

   The Sleeping Dragon
   The Sword and the Chain
   The Silver Crown
   The Heir Apparent

(After reading the first one, I dug up the rest of the set...I think
Rosenberg shows some promise.  I think you'll like the dragon's release in
the first book.)

Bruce Fergusson's "The Shadow of His Wings".

I assume you'd call the Ersiyr dragons...close enough.  Also a good read.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 03:58:56 GMT
From: maurice@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Dale Ross Maurice)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

 Well..
   How about "Dragon and the George" by Gordon R. Dickson?

Dale R. Maurice
Old Dominion University
UUCP: maurice@xanth.UUCP
maurice@xanth.cs.odu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 17:16:00 GMT
From: SMITH@dickinsn.bitnet
Subject: Friendly dragons

Christopher Stasheff (yes, going back to him again) has (a) friendly
dragon(s) in _Her Majesty's Wizard_, published by (I think) Ace. Stegoman
is his name and while he gets drunk when he breathes fire, this gets
eventually cured.

Stephen Joseph Smith
SMITH@DICKINSN.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 20:17:42 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

I'm rather glad you asked that question.  I've always wanted to, but have
feared the unending followups which would result.

I've almost never disliked a book with sympathetic nonhumans in it, and
would like to read more.

There is, of course, the _Dragonriders_ series.

Another series which contains a friendly dragon is Joel Rosenberg's
_Guardians of the Flame_.

A current series of graphics novels from Starblaze, _Duncan & Mallory_,
also has a dragon as one of the two main characters.  A particularly
amusing facet of the dragon's personality is his complete incompetence at
combat.

I'm sure someone else will post a canonical list of some sort, but these
are fairly obscure, and have a chance of not being duplicated.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 02:33:48 GMT
From: ethanol@ucscc.ucsc.edu (Evan A.C. Hunt)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

There's "The Neverending Story."

Evan A.C. Hunt
ethanol@ucscc.ucsc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 06:34:23 GMT
From: djl@dplace.uucp (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

How about "The Dragon and the George" by Gordon Dickson, although since the
dragon in question has a human intelligence I'm not sure if that qualifies.

The gap dragon in "Dragon On a Pedestal" by Piers Anthony.

Gleep in the Myth Adventure books by Robert Asprin.

Then there is Pip the mini-drag in the Flinx books by Alan Foster.

Several books by Elizabeth Scarborough such as "The Drastic Dragon of
Draco, Texas" or "The Christening Quest".

"Her Majesty's Wizard" by Christopher Stasheff.

The last one I can find is "The Dragon-Masters" by Jack Vance.

Dave Lampe
{ihnp4 | ames | lll-tis | sun | pyramid}!pacbell!dplace!djl
(415) 455-1571

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 17:23:32 GMT
From: royer@savax.uucp (tom royer)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

How about RAH's juvenile _Between_Planets_?  The Venerian dragons team up
with the Venus Colonials ...

Tom Royer
Sanders Associates
A Lockheed Company
MER24-1283, CS2034
Nashua, NH  03061-2034
(603)-885-9171

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 15:50:20 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

Another friendly dragon is in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", by C. S.
Lewis.  Admittedly this one is actually an enchanted human, not originally
a dragon, but he's given a dragonish set of instincts and reflexes in the
process.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 06:04:27 GMT
From: troly@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

  My all-time favorite book with a dragon is _Tea with a Black Dragon_ by
Roberta MacAvoy. Great book!

Bret

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 07:18:15 GMT
From: elric@imryrr.uucp
Subject: Friendly Dragons

See the Elric books, especially:

   Elric of Melnibone
   Stormbringer

Rick Heli
Internet:  rheli@sun.COM
UUCP:      ...!sun!rheli	

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 16:17:41 GMT
From: lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Una Scaith)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

There is a duology of short story books edited either by Orson Scott Card
or by Andrew J. Offutt ( the O's have me confused ) called respectively
Dragons of Dawn, and Dragons of Darkness.  As I recall, the dragons in the
first book are the nice, friendly ones, although in one or two of the short
stories, the dragon in question may have a nasty streak.  In the second
book, it is the opposite, as most of the dragons portrayed are pretty
nasty, with one or two having a nice streak, or appearing to work with a
human for as long as it pleases them, and then eating them.

I would advise reading both, because there are good stories in each, but
for your purposes, I would only include Dragons of Dawn.

Especially the one with the ice dragon!

bye!

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 15:01:39 GMT
From: albert@endor.harvard.edu (David Albert)
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

E. Nesbit's "The Last of the Dragons" has about 10 short stories with
dragons, many of them friendly.

David Albert
UUCP: ...{ihnp4!think, seismo}!harvard!albert
INTERNET: albert@harvard.harvard.edu	     

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 17:53:25 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

The Dragon and the George by George R.R. Martin might fit the bill here
though the friendly dragon is actually a man who's mind is accidentally
transferred in the dragon's body. I do seem to recall, however, that
towards the end of the book the man's mind was transferred into a new body
and the dragon remained friendly.

Dragons of Light, which was edited by Orson Scott Card, features short
stories about good dragons. There was some very good stories in this book
and its companion volume, Dragons of Darkness.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 17:00:08 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

Of course, let's not forget the Marxist dragon in Alan Dean Foster's
_SpellSinger_ series. Not that he was exactly friendly, at least not to
_you_, you bourgeois pig! However, he was extremly concerned with the
proletarians, and was always will to help a fellow worker...

(Arrgh! I can't remember the dragon's name! Why did I just borrow those
books, instead of actually shelling out the $$$..I may have just answered
my own question)

Bye the bye, Anne McCaffrey's dragons aren't really _dragons_, though they
can fly, and do shoot fire. They are product of eugenics and (maybe)
genetic engineering, and are natural creatures subordinate to man, not
higher beings magical in nature.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
UUCP: ...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 18:33:22 GMT
From: moss!sfsup!peking@att.arpa (L.Perkins)
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

Anne McCaffrey's dragons in the DragonXXXXXX series.  They even come in
five colors: Gold, bronze, green, blue and white.

attunix!peking

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 20:52:59 GMT
From: demasi@paisano.uucp (Michael C. De Masi)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I seem to remember a
brave and helpful dragon creature ridden by Tarna the Avenger in the movie
_Heavy_Metal_.  Great movie.

Mike D

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 17:23:08 GMT
From: bing@mcnc.org (Carter E. Bing)
Subject: Dragons

 Well they aren`t all friendly but you might want to read the Earthsea
Triolgy. (please don`t ask me to spell the author`s name :-) )
   It has been quite a while since I read the books but I think the last
book in the series contains a very interesting story and view of dragons.
   I think the spelling is Ursula LeGuin but don`t hold me to it.

Have fun,

Carter Bing
bing@mcnc.org

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 20:58:52 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut (Dave )
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC) writes:
>(Arrgh! I can't remember the dragon's name! Why did I just borrow those
>books, instead of actually shelling out the $$$..I may have just answered
>my own question)

   I can't remember the full name, but it was something-something of
Salmonmee, maybe that will jog your memory.  Jon-Tom conjured him up when
he was trying to get salamanders to float them upriver by singing Yellow
Submarine.  Yellow, er, salamandee? :-)

>Bye the bye, Anne McCaffrey's dragons aren't really _dragons_, though they
>can fly, and do shoot fire. They are product of eugenics and (maybe)
>genetic engineering, and are natural creatures subordinate to man, not
>higher beings magical in nature.

   Oh really?  What do they say, if it looks like a rose, and smells like a
rose, then it must be another flower masquerading as a rose? Not likely!
And would YOU like to tell Mnementh that he is "subordinate?"  I wouldn't.

   As far as friendly dragons go, don't forget the _Dragonlance_ series.
The metallic dragons were all friendly, and the God of Good,
Paladine/Fizban, was himself a dragon.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 23:06:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy uses dragons very effectively.  In the
first one (_A Wizard of Earthsea_) the relationship to the wizard Ged is
antagonistic, but in the last (_The Farthest Shore_) it is friendly.

E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series has as one of its major races the
Velantians, which are probably dragon-like enough for your needs.  They
have powerful telepathic abilities.  I think they start appearing in the
third volume, _Galactic Patrol_.

Gordon Dickson's _The Dragon and the George_ is a delightful romp and
should certainly be on your list.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 88 19:22:37 GMT
From: carols@drilex.uucp (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

There is a wonderful children's book by Marian Cockrell (whom I've
occasionally seen in writing credits for the old Alfred Hitchcock Presents)
called _Shadow Castle_.  I don't know of any publication of this book aside
from the Scholastic Books paperback edition that appeared, alas, many years
ago.  It's been out of print for a long time.  Anyway, _Shadow Castle_
features a friendly dragon who enjoys nothing so much as social dining and
conversation but who, unfortunately, is feared by the townspeople and
seldom gets visitors.  There is ultimately a "battle scene" in which two
suitors for a princess's hand incite the locals to go with them against the
dragon (the princess's secret friend).  The dragon keeps grabbing the
townspeople in its talons and flying them back down the hillside, one by
one--a tiring process, as you may imagine.

Anyone know of other books by Marian Cockrell? 

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue    
Lexington, MA  02173
{mit-eddie,rutgers!ll-xn,ames!ll-xn,harvard,linus!axiom}!drilex!carols  

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 21:54:32 GMT
From: mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

How about the Lummox story by Heinlein in the 50s.

Mark Interrante
CIS Department  
University of Florida  
Gainesville, FL  32611 
(904) 335-8047  
mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 09:50:00 GMT
From: awylie@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: WANTED: Atlantis novels

An excellent old story about Atlantis is "The Lost Continent" by C.J.
Cutliffe-Hyne. Sorry I can't be exact, but I don't have my copy at work
:-), but I think it was first published in the 1920's or 30's.  It is a
good traditional fantasy adventure, with a hero, a beautiful but dangerous
queen, magic and monsters etc. Not an easy book to find, however.

Andrew Wylie
University of London Computer Centre
20 Guilford Street
London WC1N 1DZ, England
JANET: andrew@uk.ac.ulcc.ncdlab
UUCP:  ..!mcvax!ukc!cs.ucl.ac.uk!awylie
ARPA:  awylie@cs.ucl.ac.uk
BITNET:andrew%uk.ac.ulcc.ncdlab@ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 21:18:00 GMT
From: OPLAMO@gwuvax.bitnet
Subject: Excalibur

  I was just wondering if anyone could tell me the name of the book (&
author) on which the movie Excalibur was based.  And while you're at it,
since I'm new to the sf-lovers list, I missed the Arthurian references
list...could anyone tell me which issue number it was in, because I was
looking for a similar list.

thanx,

Michael Lamoureux
BITNET:  Oplamo@gwuvax.bitnet
ARPA:    Oplamo@gwuvax.gwu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 05:12:00 GMT
From: wombat@urbsdc.urbana.gould.com
Subject: Re: Excalibur

From the film poster hanging just above my terminal:

			EXCALIBUR
		John Boorman's "Excalibur"
    Nigel Terry * Helen Mirren * Nicholas Clay * Cherie Lunghi *
	     Paul Geoffrey and Nicol Williamson
Executive Producers Edgar F. Gross and Robert A. Eisenstein * Directed
		and Produced by John Boorman
	Screenplay by Rospo Pallenberg and John Boorman
Adapted from Malory's Le Morte Darthur by Rospo Pallenberg

ihnp4!uiucdcs!urbsdc!wombat
wombat@urbsdc.Urbana.Gould.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 20:01:41 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Recently Read (Micro Reviews)

_Sight of Proteus_	Charles Sheffield	Ballantine

A straightforward tale of the social effects of humans who can form-change.
Badly weakened by the deus ex machina explanation of form changing and the
rather mundane social effects.  The copyright is from 1978, so this new
edition is presumably a reprint to cash in on Sheffield's recent success.

_Cobra Bargain_		Timothy Zahn		Baen Books

The fate of the Cobra worlds rests on the slim shoulders of the first
female Cobra.  (Ah, I love a far distant future where men are men and women
are still put down.)  The Cobra books aren't going to leave you walking
around in a revelatory daze, but the latest entry is solid, competent, and
a fine read.

_Seventh Son_ 		Orson Scott Card	Tor

Wow.  (How's that for a micro-review?)

_Empire Dreams_		Ian McDonald		Bantam

I panned _Desolation Road_ (a "novel" by McDonald), and _Empire Dreams_
isn't much better.  One or two of the short stories in this volume are
moving.  The rest are literary thumb-twiddling.  McDonald seems to be
heavily influenced by modern short fiction and (to a lesser extent) New
Wave science fiction, and I don't much like the result.

_The Journal of Nicholas the American_	Leigh Kennedy	St. Martin's Press

A very good novel about the trials and tribulations of the last empath in a
family of empaths.  The strength of the book, though, lies in the
relationships between the characters (the empath, his girlfriend, his
father, the girlfriend's mother) and not in the exposition of telempathy,
so the reader can draw from this book for his own life.  We may not be as
empathatic as Nicholas, but we all feel for our fellows.  A splendid read.
 
Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
srt@cs.ucla.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 11 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Anthony (7 msgs) & Brust (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 23:25:47 GMT
From: pyr203@psc90.uucp (Jim Vilandre)
Subject: I happen to enjoy Anthony's works

I have read all of Anthony's Xanth series up to and including Vale of the
Vole_, all of _Incarnations of Immortality_ except Being a Green Mother_
(I'm waiting for the paper-back), the Tarot_ trilogy, the _Apprentice
Adept_ series (not including Out of Phaze_,yet!), his _Anthonology_, and
_Omnivore_, _Orn_, and _*OX*_. I enjoy reading Anthony's works as well as
Donaldson, Hambly, Tolkien, and Eddings (plus a few others I won't
mention). Over all, I enjoy reading sci-fi and fantasy and know what I
like. It seems as though every time I read News, somebody is knocking
Anthony, however, and although it may not be my place to say this, but if
there are so many of you who don't like Piers Anthony's writing, then why
do you bother to read it?  Don't get me wrong; some of the arguments I hear
are legitimate.  For instance, a friend once described his _Xanth_ series
as bubble gum, but *enjoyable* bubble gum, provided you realize it IS *NOT*
MEANT TO BE SERIOUS. Besides, over half of the puns he uses, for those of
you who don't like puns, are submitted to him by readers. In fact, he even
went so far as to put in his writer's note a request for readers to stop
sending him puns, since he had more than he could handle to begin with. But
wait, I know what it is about Anthony you really hate. He cares. And
everyone knows that a writer is not supposed to care about his or her
audience. I mean, can you imagine somebody writing an entire book just for
one person, such as Anthony did with Wielding a Red Sword_ for a young girl
who sent him letters saying she loved him and wanted to commit suicide
since he was the only person who may have loved her, even though she was
hoping he would love her. Outrageous! To think that he would actually name
a character after her, this girl who dared to even write to him! My God!
(smiley face omitted for Anthony haters only) Oh, if you don't believe the
above is true, look in the back of the aforementioned book (WRS). That's
where you'll find it.  As I was saying, I have not read all of Anthony's
works, and I too have my gripes about various authors. But if I find an
author whose works I don't like, I won't read his or her works. That's one
thing that bothers me. Somebody complained about the entire _Tarot_ series,
or the entirety of another series. Why did you bother reading the whole
series if you didn't even like the first book?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 23:10:14 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: All Anthony is *not* trash!

The problem with Anthony's books is that he seems unable to keep his
characters fully human. They're always reacting in ways that no real person
would. Anthony does have some small skill with plots, but I don't have
enough time these days to waste it reading books whose characters are plot
hacks passing themselves off as people.

John L. McKernan
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 10:06:17 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: I happen to enjoy Anthony's works

pyr203@psc90.UUCP (Jim Vilandre) writes:
>It seems as though every time I read News, somebody is knocking Anthony,
>however, and although it may not be my place to say this, but if there are
>so many of you who don't like Piers Anthony's writing, then why do you
>bother to read it?

I think there are a few reasons for this. Anthony's books are heavily hyped
and are somewhat popular. This exposure causes people to give Anthony a
second chance, or to try a book to see what all of the noise is about. I
also think it's fair to say that Anthony can write a somewhat exciting
plot, and when somehow there are no other books available (hard to believe)
this can be attractive. However, since in my opinion Anthony is not capable
of consistently human characterization or a consistently reasonable plot, I
don't think I will ever pick up an Anthony book again.

>But wait, I know what it is about Anthony you really hate. He cares. And
>everyone knows that a writer is not supposed to care about his or her
>audience. I mean, can you imagine somebody writing an entire book just for
>one person, such as Anthony did with Wielding a Red Sword_ for a young
>girl who sent him letters saying she loved him and wanted to commit
>suicide since he was the only person who may have loved her, even though
>she was hoping he would love her. Outrageous! To think that he would
>actually name a character after her, this girl who dared to even write to
>him! My God! (smiley face omitted for Anthony haters only)

Caring about your audience is clearly not sufficient to make somebody a
good writer. Indeed, I think it is possible for somebody to actively
dislike their audience and still be a good writer, although liking your
audience doesn't get in the way of good writing.

John L. McKernan
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 19:25:38 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut (Dave )
Subject: Re: *ALL* Anthony is trash

dalew@qiclab.UUCP (Dale Weber) writes:
>>Obviously you've read very little old Anthony, like _Macroscope_, which
>>is an excellent piece of science fiction.
>
> And there is also MUTE which I am going to read yet again because I
> enjoyed it so much. It's also been a long time since I read it the first
> two times.

   CHTHON and PHTHOR are good, have at least one well-developed character
(Aton) and pose many interesting ideas, one of which is, "What do you do
when you fall in love with someone who has her emotions reversed?"
   I was turned on to Anthony by MACROSCOPE, and haven't backed down since.
True, the Xanth series is bubble gum (VERY soft bubble gum,) but it is
getting better (marginally.)  He has written very emphatic remarks in the
last three or four Xanths NOT to send him any more $#%$^ puns, but...
   These are from popular demand, mostly by younger people.
   For something with a lot more meat, read the above selections.
   Also, the _Bio of a Space Tyrant_ is a space opera which operates on
several levels.  It is a space opera, but it's also a deep character study,
but it's also bitter social criticism, but it's... You get my point.
Plainly put, it's modern Anthony at his finest.
   And if you don't like it, a nova at you! :-) :-)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 11:14:07 GMT
From: rwhite@nusdhub.uucp (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Incarnations of Immortality (Anthony bashing)

matoh@teorix.liu.se (Mats Ohrman) says:
>runyan@hpirs.HP.COM (Mark Runyan) writes:
>>Gaea appears to have been in office longer than the other incarnations.
>>I also wonder if Time is as powerful as Gaea or not (you indicated he had
>>the most powerful symbol, but even Time had to face Gaea's gauntlet).
> Don't you think this gauntlet reminds you of a well known magician from
> Xanth (Not to mention a lot of other places in Anthony books)?  [And
> especially a badly run AD&D campaign? :-) ]

   The real problem with the incarnations series is that it lacked balance.
[in two ways].

   1) Anthony didn't like "war" so "war" was a bit player relegated to
little and meaningless things for the "other four" books.  By the time Red
Sword cam around Anthony din't have the foggiest idea of how to handle him.
   I would have had his transport be: Sword is drawn to _any_ conflict.
i.e.  War can go to a market square because people are haggling therein.
And War should have been more of a referee in some sense, while being an
instigator in another.  War is the desire or lack thereof to compete in any
way, with only the most ostensible examples requiring direct attention.
Much the same as death.
   War should retire to the "council of marshals" who are given free-roam
of the universe, but who remain in purgatory indefinitely, each appointing
his successor.  A forcible exit would be beating war in combat and/or
taking the sword in great need.  [c.f. sucker punch and/or snatch and run.
I.E. Bob needs SOME weapon to find of the onrushing hoard, he senses the
sword, and grabs it.  (War does have to be careful, you know)]

   2) I think Anthony needed someone to run purgatory [c.f. heaven and
hell] I would have added the incarnation of balance.  I would have put him
on the same level as god or satan.  "Balance" would have made all the
artifacts of office for the other incarnations, and his token would have
been a small lump of "anything" which is the left-over from making the
skien, cloak, sword, etc.  Balance would be the referee over the contest
between god and satan.
   On the god and satan bit, I would have added that, instead of god
"blindly honoring" some compact I would have had Balance throw God in the
"penalty box" for overstepping the rules in the whole "Jesus Christ
affair".  That would be why all the miracles stopped sort of sudden like.
Satan is simply being "givin the chance to recover from God's heavy-handed
tactics"
   You need Balance, because someone other than God or Satan would need to
have made the other artifacts.  Neither God or Satan would have trusted the
other to make them, because they wouln't want one or the other to be able
to have undue influence over the aritfacts themselves.
   Couldn't you just see this guy in jeans and a teeshirt, carrying a stick
[balance/scales in it's simplest form] giving each incarnation the old "be
fair, and give both sides a listen" speech to each new office holder, over
coffee and twinkies in some completely incongruous situation.....
   Bob, a starving villager, has just grabbed the sword of war, and
discovers he is no longer "there" in the battle.  Sudenly a man walks up to
him, proffering ho-hos and a Dr. Pepper, and starts talking about fairness,
and transports them to the garment district of New York city where he
proceeds to tell Bob that Satan is REALLY not that bad a guy, "if you go in
for that sort of thing".

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 21:07:33 GMT
From: jac@surfers.rutgers.edu (Jonathan A. Chandross)
Subject: Mais oiu, *ALL* Anthony is trash

dalew@qiclab.UUCP (Dale Weber) writes:
>>Obviously you've read very little old Anthony, like _Macroscope_, which
>>is an excellent piece of science fiction.

Macroscope is a prime example of Anthony's inability to craft a story.  I
enjoyed the book up until the last 40 or so pages.  It soon became clear
that he had no idea how to end the story and so he just gave up.  While
this sort of ending is emininently satisfying to a twelve year old, it
lacks something for the rest of us.

dmw3@ur-tut (Dave ) writes:
>CHTHON and PHTHOR are good, have at least one well-developed character
>(Aton) and pose many interesting ideas, one of which is, "What do you do
>when you fall in love with someone who has her emotions reversed?"  .....
>.....  Plainly put, [_Diary of a Space Tyrant] is modern Anthony at his
>finest.

Ah yes, the books featuring women who love abuse.  De Sade did it ever so
much better.  More importantly, Anthony's motive is not investigation, but
rather an exposure of Anthony's deepest convictions.  His masterpiece,
_Diary of a Space Tyrant_, features a woman who only achieves sexual
satisfaction when she is raped at knifepoint.  Anthony shows us once again
that they *all* want it, but they just won't admit it.  Silly creatures,
what else can you expect from them.

I imagine that you praise _The Story of "O"_ and _Justine_ for their
character development and "interesting ideas" as well.

Jonathan A. Chandross
ARPA: jac@paul.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!jac@paul.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 00:20:31 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut (Dave )
Subject: *ALL* Anthony is not trash, just misunderstood

jac@surfers.rutgers.edu (Jonathan A. Chandross) writes:
>Macroscope is a prime example of Anthony's inability to craft a story.  I
>enjoyed the book up until the last 40 or so pages.  It soon became clear
>that he had no idea how to end the story and so he just gave up.

   Awww, his second book didn't have a nice complete understandable concise
ending, so you've got to say he's unable to craft a story.  Even you admit
that the book was enjoyable for most of its length.  The ending was a
study, yes, that word again, in people being chased by the ghosts of their
past and the ghosts of their imagination.  If Anthony's works often ended
in a skein of alternate futures/visions, it was because he wanted to make
clear how each character perceived his/her role.  Schon saw himself as the
superman in a world of fools, so he perceived his role as the natural
savior.  The others had differing experiences depending on how they
perceived their roles.

>Ah yes, the books featuring women who love abuse.  De Sade did it ever so
>much better.  More importantly, Anthony's motive is not investigation, but
>rather an exposure of Anthony's deepest convictions.  His masterpiece,
>_Diary of a Space Tyrant_, features a woman who only achieves sexual
>satisfaction when she is raped at knifepoint.  Anthony shows us once again
>that they *all* want it, but they just won't admit it.  Silly creatures,
>what else can you expect from them.

   Afraid not.  The books also feature men who abuse, and hate themselves
for it.  This is the character development that I was speaking of.  You
evidently read into the stories an attitude that Anthony was actually
denouncing: the society that allows people to grow up with an inability to
love normally.  I'm talking about men and women both, in these stories.
The pirate society in _Bio_ inured their children, men and women both, to
the idea that rape was the normal course of events.  The protagonist
(someone you fail to mention) was disgusted by this attitude and fought for
years to turn it around.
   If the pirate woman was only a reincarnation of the minionette, please
excuse Anthony for taking ideas from his first, obscure, novel and
installing them in another story.  No doubt you will also accuse him of
lack of imagination, but when you write almost a hundred books in the
course of less than twenty years, I think a little idea-doubling is
excusable.
   The minionette is anything but a "silly creature."  You read violence
towards women.  I read a story of a man who is being dragged down,
physically, emotionally, and morally, by circumstances beyond his control.
Anthony may be paranoid of outside matters controlling his life, he may
even be paranoid of other people (and some of them women, since they make
up a large portion of the population) controlling his life, and that shows
in his work.  Read it with this in mind, and you might see what I mean.
   In CHTHON and PHTHOR Anthony is saying the opposite of what you accuse
him of.  It is a warning.  What happens to a society that teaches violence?
he asks.  When the people are convinced that violence and sadism are the
natural order of things, they become like the Minions, he says.  They
become incapable of love, of true affection.  Like the Minion.

>I imagine that you praise _The Story of "O"_ and _Justine_ for their
>character development and "interesting ideas" as well.

   And I imagine you denounce Ellison's "A Boy and His Dog" and others of
its quality (it won the Nebula) because they "condone" violence to women.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 11:44:54 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu.UUCP writes:
> I just re-read _The_Sun,_the_Moon,_and_the_Stars_ and noticed it has
> seventeen chapters.  So does every other Brust book I can conveniently
> check.  (realizing this after having 17 beaten into my head by _Taltos_)

You're right!

On another track... is anyone else out there as disgusted with Teckla as I
am? Vlad's breakdown just doesn't seem to be in character. I didn't see
anything that would cause a break down of his rather perverse variant of
libertarianism. I also don't see the revolution as being believable. The
society that survived the interregnum just wouldn't be as weak as that.

Taltos proves that Brust is still capable of great stuff (though I thought
it should have been called Dragon).

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 03:45:01 GMT
From: brust@starfire.uucp (Steven K. Zoltan Brust)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

Actually, Devera puts in a brief appearance at the beginning of Chapter 1.
Thanks for noticing all that stuff.  (Oh, I spell my name with a _v_, not a
_ph_, by the way.)

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 11 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Card & Cherryh & Drake & Eddings (3 msgs) &
                    Goulart (2 msgs) & Lem & Zelazny & 
                    Thieves' World & A Request

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 19:09:34 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut (Dave )
Subject: Re: Card's _Seventh_Son_ and some spoilers

jfreund@dasys1.UUCP
>_The Tale of Alvin the Maker_ was originally intended to be a trilogy,
>However, as Scott wrote the first volume (_Seventh Son_), he realized
>that he had at least two more volumes' worth of material to include,
>Sometime after that, Scott decided to make the series six volumes long.

   I haven't read _Red_Prophet_ as of yet, so don't flame me if I include
some things from that book, but I did go to a reading where he read some
excerpts from it to us.  Anyway, new items in the _Tales_of_Alvin_Maker_:

   Alvin becomes, in essence, "half Red," that is, he can climb the
Indian's (Reds') most sacred ground, Eight Face Mound.  Wm. Henry Harrison
tries to start a huge war with the Reds, but fails due to the activities of
Alvin.  The rest you can read when the library's copy of the book is open,
or when it comes out in paperback.

   Alvin proves essential in keeping the Reds alive and on the western half
of the continent, and the whites in the east.  He eventually tries to build
the Crystal City of legend, but fails.  Also, the person telling the story
in the first place is Taleswapper, alias William Blake.

   More bits:
   There _will_ be a third book to follow _Speaker_For_the_Dead_, but it
isn't projected to be written for several years.  Card said that he really
had to learn a lot more about writing before he could even attempt a
follow-up to the two books that won Nebulas and Hugos.  "The most I can
hope for," he said, "is to read, 'A disappointment, BUT...'" :-) Anyway, it
will be cosmic science fiction, in the tradition of the new David Zindell
novel, _Neverness._ Card recommends that one himself, so it's probably very
good.

So.  I've said enough.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 22:45:57 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp
Subject: Re: Book request (Aliens vs. inventors)

vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>She still hasn't done what I've been waiting to see ever since the Chanur
>books started coming out.  Here we have an interstellar, multiracial
>culture where the thing people fear the most is a "hunter" ship.  THEY
>DON'T HAVE WARSHIPS!!!!!  The Kif and , o shoot, that other race, the one
>that seemed to be allied with the Hani, had the hunter ships, but they
>seem to be about the size of the medium size merchanters in "Downbelow
>Station" and "Merchanter's Luck".  They don't seem to be built to help
>compensate for G forces or anything, and there is only a rumour of ever
>attacking a planet from orbit.  One of these days a Carrier is going to
>show up and those poor folks are going to freak out completely.

Not so much rumor: the kif said they'd do it.  I was under the impression
that the mahendo'sat were able to do so as well.  As for the others: nobody
knows what knnn have, the hani have anything only because of the
mahendo'sat who aren't about to give hunter-ship technology to them, and
the stsho would most likely respond to a warship by digging a hole and
trying to pull it in after themselves.  ;-) I don't know what the tc'a and
chi would do, but one may assume that they are allied with mahendo'sat for
a reason.  

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!hnsurg3,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 13:55:42 GMT
From: duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan)
Subject: Re: Iridium - useful for armor, powerguns and tanks?

I originally posted the article which started this discussion. Since that
time I have read more in the Hammer's Slammers series. It appears that
powerguns fire bolts of energy. This energy doesn't seem to have any
significant matter associated with it. The electomagnetic effects due
generate a tremendous amount of heat though not as much as plasma. More on
the order of molten lava.

I still don't understand exactly how powerguns work, though there is an
article prefacing the reprint of the first Hammer's Slammers book - this
one includes the story "The Tank Lords". If anyone else understands how
powerguns work and why please post a follow up. Is the explanation Drake
gives scientifically sound?

Jim Duncan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 22:54:30 GMT
From: pyr203@psc90.uucp (Jim Vilandre)
Subject: Re: Current odds on the Mallorean

I have a few comments and questions about Eddings' _Mallorean_; First, am I
to assume by all these extra comments that his second book *is* on the
market? I live here near the East coast and the book stores I normally
visit don't have it yet. I have no idea how long it will take for the book
to reach here it took the last one a couple months, never mind weeks) and
I'm not so sure I can wait that long. If the second book is out, can
somebody tell me if I could order it from somewhere? Or if Somebody might
be interested in selling an extra copy...?;-) Secondly, I have a few
suggestions based on what I have read. Someone referred to Liselle as
probably being the "Woman Who Watches" (jokingly, perhaps), for the way she
"watches" everyone, especially Kheldar. However, I think this might apply
better to Cyradis, the seer, because as a seer, she does "watch" the future
and present, even if she doesn't know everything.  The "Man Who Is No Man"
may be the Grolim Harakan, whom Beldin tried to destroy and failed and who
can shift his form at will.  Remember, Errand even said that Harakan was
*not* a man (when Garion had Harakan bound and was questioning him. If you
don't believe me, people, read it again; it's there). I agree that Vella
*must* be the Huntress, being a huntress to begin with, since she must
serve *some* purpose for Eddings to reintroduce her and bother keeping her
around. Besides, Javelin called his master spy" Hunter, who could be either
a man or a woman and still be called "Hunter", not *The* Huntress ;-).  I
have no thoughts yet as to who the "Empty One" might be, but I would like
to know; who is Bethra? A recent posting was the first time I heard the
name. Oh, and about Cyradis, remember that Poledra told Errand that Cyradis
had a destiny to follow, but that she would have to make a decision some
time in the future. That could very well be whether or not to join Garion,
considering that for now she has to remain neutral, supplying info to both
"sides".  

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 11:55:57 GMT
From: chut@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (ovrwkd and undrpd aka T.Z. Chiu)
Subject: Malloreon

Hopefully this will be it.

Book Two of the Malloreon (note how it is spelled, no more Mallorean
please) is out in hardcover (at least in Philadelphia).

The titles of the five books are 

Book One: _Guardians of the West_
Book Two: _King of the Murgos_
Book Three: _Demon Lord of Karanda_
Book Four: _Sorceress of Darshiva_
Book Five: _The Seeress of Kell_

As to the inquiry about Bethra, she was introduced in Book One, around page
187 in the paperback version, she was the Madame who frequented Ran Borune
and then after his death went to warn Varana about the Honeths that were
plotting against his son.

Timothy Chiu
chut@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
chiu@neural0vlsi.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 22:09:00 GMT
From: rce229@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Flame On Mallorean ** MAJOR SPOILER

My minor complaint, in the form of a question: How many times did Belgarath
say he'd have to have a talk with [any given character] sometime?

On the positive side, I didn't notice Polgara saying "Men!" at all in the
second book.

Rob Elliott

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 21:01:40 GMT
From: gypsy@c3pe.uucp (gypsy roach lee)
Subject: Weird Heroes/Quest Of The Gypsy/Ron Goulart

Way back when at my first SF convention, I picked up this book at a
dealer's table.  It had this hideous day-glo orange cover, and it said,
"WEIRD HEROES" on the cover.  Looked like just my sort of thing, so I
bought it.

It had a story in it called "Quest Of The Gypsy", by Ron Goulart.  I loved
it.  Since the book and the story both appeared to be the first in a
series, I thought I would have no trouble finding the rest.

It took me four years.  I found two more books in a used bookshop,
completely by chance.  They were "Weird Heroes 3: Quest of The Gypsy" and
"Weird Heroes 7: Eye Of the Vulture."  In these two books, the story
continued.  I do know that they were the next two books -- the in-between
ones in the Weird Heroes series were other people's stories.  A lot of
clues were dropped, the basic idea seemingly being for the reader to see if
he could figure it out before Gypsy did.  well, I had my theories, but...

The third book does not seem to be the end.  I suppose it could be that the
idea was to leave the reader hanging and let him draw his own conclusions
but, somehow I doubt it.  I have become obsessed with finding out how this
story ends.  It has been five years now.  I am going crazy.  Does ANYONE
know whether this series has ever been concluded?  Where I might be able to
lay my hands on any more books in this series?  The first was published in
1975, the second in '76, and the third in '77.

PLEASE HELP!!!

gypsy
..!decuac.dec.com!c3pe!gypsy

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 19:47:13 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: Weird Heroes/Quest Of The Gypsy/Ron Goulart

I have volumes 1-4, and 6-8 of Weird Heroes.  From the introduction to
volume 3 "Quest Of The Gypsy":

   "...Ron Goulart has revised the original short story and here, for the
   first time, is the complete edition of what we hope will be a six-book
   epic of Gypsy's search for the answers to the questions seeded
   fifty-five years in his past."

   "Next year will bring two more Gypsy novels, Books 2 and 3 in the
   prospective double-trilogy."

Vols 1 and 2 are collections of short pieces by various writers and
artists.

Volume 3 is Goulart's novel "Quest Of The Gypsy" which begins with the
short piece that was in volume 1.

Volume 4 is a novel, "Nightshade" by Tappan King and Beth Meacham.

Volume 5, according to the list in volume 6, was a novel "Doc Phoenix in
The Oz Encounter" by Marv Wolfman and Ted White.

Volume 6 is another anthology with a Goulart story, but not about Gypsy.

Volume 7 is Goulart's "Eye Of The Vulture", the second Gypsy novel.

Volume 8 is another anthology, minus any Goulart story.  Although it's not
said anywhere in volume 8 (that I could find), both the introduction and
the afterword are written in "past tense" phrases that lead you to believe
that Preiss knew the series was dead when he wrote them:

     "Thus, it is with much caution-and much integrity-that we release this
     eighth volume of a series consciously devoted to popular fiction."

     "Since it's first volume, Weird Heroes has been devoted to giving back
     'to heroic fiction its thrilling sense of adventure..."

     "Yet at the same time we wanted to experiment...."

     "If we've succeeded, if we've entertained you and made you remember
     the art and stories within, then our writers and artists have
     fulfilled the goals of the series.  If we've given you some popular
     culture that is new, that is re-approachable and rewarding the second
     time around, then Weird Heroes has expanded the old "pulp" medium and
     made another place for innovative heroic literature in modern
     fiction."

     "A few notes here for those of you still with us."  "First, some
     acknowledgements:..."  "Looking back on eight volumes of Weird Heroes,
     four anthologies and four novels, gives us perspective on the place of
     illustrated fantasy in the mass-market milieu.  I think it is safe to
     say that there has been some innovation here, some exciting design and
     some truly memorable characters.  I hope you, as our paid audience,
     have enjoyed at least some small part of what we have done.  Our newer
     talents are some of the best in the fantasy field."

     "...Weird Heroes is an experiment.  There are many others.  Don't miss
     out on the opportunity to develop approaches of your own.

     "For the science fiction readers who purchase our books, I hope the
     series has expanded in some small way your concept of what a 'regular'
     paperback can be.

     "It's been a pleasure to be involved with an adventure like Weird
     Heroes.  On behalf of our writers and artists, I'd like to thank you
     for joining us, too."

Anyway, I got carried away here.  I only meant a little note.  I'm not
aware that any further volumes were published in the series (although I may
have missed them), and I'm not aware that Goulart published anymore Gypsy
stories elsewhere (although, I'm not a follower of Goulart's work, so they
could easily have escaped my notice).  Best of luck.

Everett Kaser
hplabs!hp-pcd!everett
(503) 750-3569 (work, west coast time)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 12:52:59 GMT
From: kay@cosmo.uucp (Kay Gunnar Hoegel)
Subject: Re:  Soviet bloc science fiction

Stanislaw Lem is from Poland, and he writes really sophisticated and
philosophically well based SF. Solaris has been made by Tarkowski, if I'm
right, and is at least the same encrypted scenario as the book itself.
Nevertheless: Russian SF is not the same as his kind of writing.  Russian
SF is more or less (exc. Strugatzkijs) a fabulous instrument to support
so-called soviet socialism. I'm not against socialism (as being Maoist in
former times), but this is really as boring as E.E.Smith.  Sometimes Soviet
SF is more peaceful, but there is for the biggest number of theme the
soviet (or socialist) salvador, who saves the world from being destroyed by
that or that incident. I don't like black and white painting, neither in
the west, nor in the east.

If you read all the books of Lem, you will be fascinated about his rich-
dom of ideas.

Kay Gunnar Hoegel

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 16:21:11 GMT
From: rikibeth@athena.mit.edu (Riki Beth Weiner)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos

Whaddya mean "anyone read it yet?" Unless the paperback just came out, it's
been out in hardcover for MONTHS....

Yeah, I read it, I love it but then Zelazny is one of my favorite authors
so I'm not really objective...

Surprised at the end? Why? I just hope he hurries up with the next one...
Surprised at the beginning was more like it.  That was clever. Also liked
the description of Martin.

I'd just like to see how he explains the ending consistently with the
corpse in "Trumps"...No cheating now, Zelazny!

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 22:53:57 GMT
From: pyr203@psc90.uucp (Jim Vilandre)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane

I have recently finished reading a series of books (at least until more
have been written) in which Diane Duane has a number of characters and
short stories. It's called *Thieves' World* and consists of ten books, the
titles of which follow after this. However, most of *Thieves' World*
consists of heavy* reading material by Duane, Michael Moorcock, Robert Lynn
Asprin and Lynn Abbey (who are also the editors), C. J. Cherryh, and many
other popular fantasy writers for those of you scrooges who hate Piers
Anthony, no, he doesn't have any stories in these...yet!). I enjoyed them,
but as I said; it is heavy reading and not all happy endings either. The
list:
   Thieves' World
   Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn
   Shadows of Sanctuary
   Storm Season
   The Face of Choas
   Wings of Omen
   The Dead of Winter
   Soul of the City
   Blood Ties
   Aftermath

Magic is a major element in most of these stories, as well as conflict
between gods and "factions", but I find this to be an enjoyable series,
despite the "melancholy" it tends to portray.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 09:21:03 GMT
From: milne@ics.uci.edu (Alastair Milne)
Subject: Another repeated request
 
To anybody who may know:

Some time ago I read a very interesting book called "Nerve".  The
protagonist is a physician named Adam McKinley who has worked out a drug
which accelerates neural transmissions.  The result (or one of them) is
much increased reaction speed -- so much so that McKinley, having taken it
himself, is able to compete in sporting events against professional
athletes, including boxers, and win -- or at least, not lose.  But this is
not, of course, the only result.

I enjoyed the story greatly, but I cannot find the book again, and I cannot
remember the author's name.

Anybody know it?

Thanks a lot,

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 14 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Some Award Winners (2 msgs) &
                           Title Requests (3 msgs) & 
                           Some Answers (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 03:37:48 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: misc. sf awards

Sometimes there is interest in lists of sf books winning awards.  Recently
I compiled a list of some of the "minor" award winners, so here they are.
I used the Science Fiction Encyclopedia, Locus, and Charles Brown's year in
review piece in Carr's best of the year anthology (for years I didn't have
Locus).  The Campbell Memorial award (not the one for new writers awarded
with the Hugo) is voted on by a "blue ribbon panel", and tends to award
books that are somewhat out of the mainstream.  The Locus awards are voted
on by the readers of Locus in an annual poll.  The PKD award is for best
paperback original, and is awarded by yet another "blue ribbon panel".

John W. Campbell Memorial Award:
73 - Beyond Apollo, Barry Malzberg
74 - Rendezvous With Rama, Arthur C. Clarke
     Malevil, Robert Merle
75 - Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said, Philip K. Dick
76 - The Year of the Quiet Sun, Wilson Tucker (special retrospective award)
77 - The Alteration, Kingsley Amis
78 - Gateway, Frederik Pohl
79 - Gloriana, Michael Moorcock
80 - On Wings of Song, Thomas M. Disch
81 - Timesscape, Gregory Benford
82 - Riddley Walker, Russsell Hoban
83 - Helliconia Spring, Brian Aldiss
84 - The Citadel of the Autarch, Gene Wolfe
85 - The Years of the City, Frederik Pohl
86 - The Postman, David Brin
87 - A Door into Ocean, Joan Slonczewski

Locus Award:
77 - Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang, Kate Wilhelm
78 - Gateway, Frederik Pohl
79 - Dreamsnake, Vonda McIntyre
80 - Titan, John Varley (sf)
     Harpist in the Wind, Patricia A. McKillip (fantasy)
81 - The Snow Queen (sf)
     Lord Valentine's Castle, Robert Silverberg (fantasy)
82 - The Many-Colored Land, Julian May (sf)
     The Claw of the Conciliator, Gene Wolfe (fantasy)
83 - Foundation's Edge, Isaac Asimov (sf)
     The Sword of the Lictor, Gene Wolfe (fantasy)
84 - Startide Rising, David Brin (sf)
     The Mists of Avalon, Marion Zimmer Bradley (fantasy)
85 - The Integral Trees, Larry Niven (sf)
     Job: A Comedy of Justice (fantasy)
86 - The Postman, David Brin (sf)
     Trumps of Doon, Roger Zelazny (fantasy)
87 - Speaker for the Dead, Orson Scott Card (sf)
     Soldier of the Mist, Gene Wolfe (fantasy)

Philip K. Dick Award:
83 - Software, Rudy Rucker
84 - The Anubis Gate, Tim Powers
85 - Neuromancer, William Gibson
86 - Dinner At Deviant's Palace, Tim Powers
87 - Homonculus, James Blaylock

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 20:18:10 GMT
From: jailbait@dasys1.uucp (Richard Segal)
Subject: The Prometheus Awards

A while ago, Ellen Spertus asked for a list of the winners of the
Prometheus Award and, as I haven't seen such a list posted, here it goes:
(also, many thanks to the folks at Laissez-Faire Books in NYC)

1979 	Wheels Within Wheels		F. Paul Wilson
1982	Probability Broach		L. Neil Smith
1983	Voyage From Yesteryear		James Hogan
1984	The Rainbow Cadenza		J. Neil Schlman
1985	<none of the above.>(No award)
1986	The Cybernetic Samurai		Victor Milan
1987	Marooned In Realtime		Vernor Vinge

and the Hall of Fame winners:

1983	The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress	Robert Heinlein
	Atlas Shrugged			Ayn Rand
1984	1984				George Orwell
	Farenheit 451			Ray Bradbury
1985	Trader To The Stars		Poul Anderson
	The Great Explorers (?? Messy notes)	Erik Frank Russell
1986	The Syndic			C.M. Kornbluth
	Illuminatus!			Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
1987	Anthem				Ayn Rand
	Stranger In A Strange Land	Robert Heinlein

For all who way care:
The Libertarian Futurist Society
89 Gebhardt Rd.
Penfield N.Y.  14526

I've not read most of these book (4 of the Hall of Famers, and none of the
others) so this is just a list, not a set of recommendations (except for
Illuminatus!, which everyone should read!)

Richard Segal
ARPA:SEGAL@ACFCluster.NYU.EDU
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jailbait
BITNET:SEGAL@NYUACF.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 23:48:43 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Title please

Help please,

I'm looking for the author and/or name of a story (not sure if it was a
novella or short or what) about a group of engineers ("Unorthodox
Engineering"?) who went to a planet of dust/sand storms to help out the
archaeologists there.  They found out how to re-start the electric
generators (pezioelectric air-harps) and re-start the subway system.  They
even figured out that the inhabitants were avian and small (like chickens
:-( )

At the end they were off to another adventure on a planet who's gravity
shifted 90 degrees every x minutes - or something like that.

Anyone ever read this?  Were there others (like on the shifting planet)?

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
9805 Scranton Rd.
San Diego, CA 92121
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 17:01:35 GMT
From: george@scirtp.uucp (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.)
Subject: Story about 2 leaders (part 1, question)

I have never read this story myself; maybe someone from sf-lovers knows
where to find it.  The premise is The Next Great Leader is coming of age,
but has unfortunately been going to public school in New York.  He succeeds
in doing what nobody has ever done before: getting the inner city's warring
street gangs to unify.  This new breed is very much the younger, next
generation of gang; they are all under 19.  When the police finally
recognize them as an enemy, they, having superior leadership, decide they
can win by attacking, and proceed to do so: Over the course of 1 night &
day, virtually the ENTIRE police force of New York City is murdered.  The
President of the US spends the next day trying to figure out what to do
about the fact that there are now NO police in New York City.

The immediate conservative reaction will be to desire swift brutal revenge,
but this forum being as full as it is of libertarians, surely we can come
up with a better solution. The most important thing to point out is that in
the absence of the police, it is not the gangs that murdered them but
rather all the OTHER criminals (the ones who, unlike the gangs, were
actually Afraid-Of/Deterred-By the police) who are likely to become the
real problem.  In any case, there is a problem, and the people in this
story are not going to elect to solve it by noticing that they now have the
golden opportunity to go to all-private security-defense forces.  Local
libertarian theoreticians should feel free to examine how viable
libertarian defense/police institutions might arise/evolve in this
situation, but what I want to know is this: what does the President do?
Does he go in there and just round up all the gang members using the
National Guard?  Completely aside from the fact that they might have sense
enough to take hostages, you have 1 MUCH BIGGER problem: the policemen were
wearing uniforms, but the gang members don't: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH 16-19
year olds were members of the gangs?  You're certainly not going to have
access to police records, and even if you did, positive ID is going to be
difficult ("No; I'M NOT Jimmy Smith; HE's Jimmy Smith!").

Your move.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 05:27:28 GMT
From: howardg@tekirl.tek.com (Howard Goetz)
Subject: Does anyone recognize this story?

I have for some time been trying to remember the name and/or author of a
book (or was it a novella) that I read about 20 years ago. It was one of
your basic space-opera type stories. The story opens in a semi-idyllic
society in which even the most hardened criminals are not punished. Rather,
they are required to depart to some other planet via the universal matter
transmitter system. Our hero has been accused of some sort of crime;
unfortunately, he has found out that those in his position who try to leave
for another planet are instead transmitted to a prison planet due to some
behind the scenes tampering with the transmitter system. Thus, he knows
better than to use the transmitter system. However, he only has a short
time before he will be forced to leave. He resolves the problem by quickly
repairing and taking off in an old spaceship from a museum.  (Spaceships
are obsolete due to the prevelence of matter transmitters).  And of course
he takes his girlfriend along... They barely escape from the planet-based
system of death rays (really pain-projectors that kill by overstimulating
the nerves and muscles) and, after traveling safely beyond their range,
they land and think about the situation. The problem is that the spaceship
really does not have enough range to go anywhere useful... Inspired by love
for his lady and probably by a realization of how desperate his situation
is, the hero discovers a way to modify the drive system of his ship so that
it is essentially a self-projecting matter transmitter that works without a
receiver. They go on from there to have a number of interesting adventures,
the nature of which I no longer remember. OK, I realize that this sounds
like a corny one and it was; but I would really like to track it down. Does
the above description ring any bells?
  By the way, I have a VERY vague notion that the intro to this book said
something about it being a translated work by a foreign (maybe Russian?)
author, although I may be thinking about something else entirely. In fact,
I may have dreamed the whole thing. Who knows?

Reply please by E-mail or on the net.  Thanks!

Howard Goetz
Tektronix/Beaverton
Howardg@tekirl.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 23:10:56 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Title please

jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) writes:
>I'm looking for the author and/or name of a story (not sure if it was a
>novella or short or what) about a group of engineers ("Unorthodox
>Engineering"?) who went to a planet of dust/sand storms to help out the
>archeologists there...

This is one of a series of novellas about the Unorthodox Engineers, first
published in the UK SF periodical New Worlds, more than 20 years ago.  The
author was Colin Kapp.

If memory serves, the one you refer to was 'The Subways of Tazoo', and
another one was definitely 'The Railways Up On Cannis'.

Hope the name and story titles help, since I can't recall seeing a
paperback collection of them.  By the way, the head of the gang was Fritz
van Noon.  Great character!

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 08:06:25 GMT
From: kers@otter.hple.hp.com (Christopher Dollin)
Subject: Re: Title please

jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) says:
>I'm looking for the author and/or name of a story (not sure if it was a
>novella or short or what) about a group of engineers ("Unorthodox
>Engineering"?) who went to a planet of dust/sand storms to help out the
>archeologists there.  They found out how to re-start the electric
>generators (pezioelectric air-harps) and re-start the subway system.  They
>even figured out that the inhabitants were avian and small (like chickens
>:-( )

_The Subways of Tazoo_, by Colin Kapp, featuring Fritz Van Noon and his
Unorthodox Engineers. It appeared in _New Writings in SF NN_ (for some
value of NN I don't recall right now). There were several UE stories,
appearing in assorted collections; I particularly recall

    _The Railways up on Canis_              (or was that _Cannis_?)
    _The Black Hole of Negrav_

and the other story you recall, whose name I forget; the gravity shift
wasn't 90 deg every X minutes but rather less regular (see SPOILER at end).

Kapp has written several novels too, the earliest of which (so far as I
know) was _The Dark Mind_. Others are

    _The Patterns of Chaos_
    _The Wizard of Anharitte_
    _The Ion War_
    _Manalone_

and the less-than-wonderful _Cageworld_ series. About half of his books
seem to be rather, hm, dark? morbid? depressing? (_Manalone_, _The Dark
Mind_) while the others are more optimistic (ah! "pessemistic"! that's what
I meant).

I enjoyed his books until the _Cageworld_ series, but I only read the first
of those anyway.

Regards,

Kers                

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 21:33:00 GMT
From: sheley@repoman.uucp
Subject: Re: Probably stupid question

ljc@otter.Sun.COM writes:
> For about the the past four days I've been trying to place a name.  I'm
> sure it's the name of a character from somewhere, but....where...?  The
> guys name is REGGIE BELL.  What book is he from?  Who is he?  AND WHAT IS
> HE DOING IN MY HEAD!!!!!?????

This is just a stab in the dark, BUT he could be...

Reginald Bell of the Perry Rhodan series.

  Reg. Bell was Perry's second-in-command and sidekick, starting way back in
_Mission: Stardust_, the first book.  He had red hair, was slightly portly,
rather bumbling, and very hot-headed.  He would often be a reactionary foil
to Perry's cool attitude.  He was also Pucky (Gucky in the German originals)
the mouse-beaver's best friend.

  As for why he's in your head, it's probably a plot hatched by the
Ekhonides to kill Atlan before he awakens again (by using mind control).
You'd better watch yourself if you get the urge to take an Atlantic cruise.
Perhaps Ernst Ellert implanted the idea in your head.

  I'm curious how many netters have read and enjoyed Perry Rhodan (or
perhaps not enjoyed..).  Granted, the writing wasn't Wolfe, but what
scope!: 800+ German originals, 120+ of them translated to english and
re-issued by Ace.  They were translated mainly (if not completely) by
Wendayne Ackerman, edited by Forrest J. Ackerman, and usually contained
some kind of backup story (like _COSMOS_, which I've seen mentioned lately
as the first shared universe story).  I've read that the German writers
were cranking them out once a week for a while.  I've always enjoyed the
books, and thought they were extremely good for space opera.  But then, I
like the Lensman books too.
  I am also curious what ever became of the series in Germany.  Ace
cancelled the American editions around 120 or so; but I always read that
the originals were up to issue 800+, and the last American issue appeared
in late '79 or very early '80.  I'd like to hear if anyone knows what
happened/is happening with it.

John Sheley
Convex Computer Corp.
{ihnp4,allegra,uiucdcs}!convex!repoman!sheley

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 17:07:44 GMT
From: ts@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize this story?

howardg@tekirl.TEK.COM (Howard Goetz) writes:
>I have for some time been trying to remember the name and/or author of a
>book (or was it a novella) that I read about 20 years ago. It was one of
>your basic space-opera type stories. The story opens in a semi-idyllic
>society in which even the most hardened criminals are not punished.
>Rather, they are required to depart to some other planet via the universal
>matter transmitter system. Our hero has been accused of some sort of
>crime; unfortunately, he has found out that those in his position who try
>to leave for another planet are instead transmitted to a prison planet due
>to some behind the scenes tampering with the transmitter system. Thus, he
>knows better than to use the transmitter system. However, he only has a
>short time before he will be forced to leave. He resolves the problem by
>quickly repairing and taking off in an old spaceship from a museum.
>(Spaceships are obsolete due to the prevelence of matter transmitters).
>And of course he takes his girlfriend along... They barely escape from the
>planet-based system of death rays (really pain-projectors that kill by
>overstimulating the nerves and muscles) and, after traveling safely beyond
>their range, they land and think about the situation. The problem is that
>the spaceship really does not have enough range to go anywhere useful...
>Inspired by love for his lady and probably by a realization of how
>desperate his situation is, the hero discovers a way to modify the drive
>system of his ship so that it is essentially a self-projecting matter
>transmitter that works without a receiver. They go on from there to have a
>number of interesting adventures, the nature of which I no longer remember.
>OK, I realize that this sounds like a corny one and it was; but I would
>really like to track it down. Does the above description ring any bells?
>By the way, I have a VERY vague notion that the intro to this book said
>something about it being a translated work by a foreign (maybe Russian?)
>author, although I may be thinking about something else entirely. In fact,
>I may have dreamed the whole thing. Who knows?

HAFNIUM!!!

   The whole damn story depended on hafnium! For years I have from time to
time tried to remember the name of this stupid book! Fooey!

   They eventually become part of some organization that desperately needs
ships, and need HAFNIUM to get it...

Thomas Ruschak
pur-ee!pc!ts

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 14 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Arthurian References (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 21:00:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Arthurian summary: preface

I am finally posting the summary of recommendations people made about
Arthurian fiction, both posted and E-mailed.

Thanks to the many people who participated.

The posting is rather long, so I am putting it in two parts separate from
this note.  I took the liberty to edit the responses to remove some
redundancy and clarify references.  Two posters, Michel Pasquier and Morgan
Mussell, posted more extensive bibliographies which I did not include but
could mail to anyone interested.

I was already aware of many of the works mentioned, but I value the
responses both because they mentioned some I wouldn't have heard of, and
because their personal reactions help me decide which are most worth
looking for.

If anyone has any more references, I'd be glad to receive them.  I'm going
to be finishing my thesis in the next few weeks and won't have much extra
time to respond, but send them anyway.

Finally, some general references for dedicated Arthurians:

Lacy, Norris J., Ed.  _The Arthurian Encyclopedia_.  Peter Bedrick Books.
1987?
  An invaluable reference, it includes references to most of the Arthurian
literature available: from the original sources to the most recent
treatments, in all languages, in all media, whether light or serious.  The
works are referenced through their authors/composers/creators, where
possible.  The emphasis is on creative works themselves, but it also has
articles on major themes and characters.  It is recently available in
paperback, and has a nice bibliography of other general sources (but to my
frustration does not give addresses for the half dozen magazines it
mentions).

Karr, Phyllis Ann.  _The King Arthur Companion_.  Chaosium.
  This work was written as a companion to Chaosium's Arthurian role-playing
game (whose name slips my mind).  It makes a nice complement to the
_Encyclopedia_, since its emphasis is on the characters, places, and
general milieu.  The comments are based mainly on Malory, the French
Vulgate Cycle, and Karr's own interpretations and reconciliations.  Look
for it in games stores.

Thompson, Raymond H.  _The Return from Avalon: A Study of the Arthurian
                          Legend in Modern Fiction_.  Greewood Press, 1985.
  More focused than the _Encyclopedia_, it is able to spend more time
discussing the various works.  It has a good bibliography.  I don't know if
it's in print; I checked it out from the library.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 21:01:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Arthurian summary part 1

Summary of Arthurian recommendations, part 1. 

Original authors are in angle brackets; my comments made at this writing
appear in square brackets.  Bryan Stout.

[author and title unknown]
There was also a sequel to H.G. Wells' _The Time Machine_ some years back
that dealt with the Morlocks using the Time Traveller's machine to invade
modern England. Excalibur makes an appearance as does a character who may
or may not be King Arthur, returned to deal with this threat to his
homeland. I can't remember the name of the book or of the author but it was
a pretty mediocre work.  <Keith "Badger" Vaglienti>

Barr, Mike.  _Camelot 3000_.
  (I think [the author is Barr]).  A 12 issue maxi-series from DC comics
that has been collected into a recently released graphic novel. I haven't
read this but others seems to think its good. It deals with the future
return of Arthur and the knights of the Round Table.  <Keith Vaglienti>
  [I have also been told of a graphic novel series called "Mage", in which
a few characters seem to be reincarnations of Arthurian characters.  The
comix dealer who told me about it said he preferred it to _Camelot 3000_.]

Berger, Thomas.  _Arthur Rex_.
  Not the most faithful to the original canon, but a damn funny book just
the same.  Arthur with none of the naughty words taken out.  <Michael J.
Farren>
  Berger's work has charm, in its own cynical way, but he took on too much
in trying to handle the entire matter of Britain in one volume. For
instance, Mark keeps undergoing wild personality changes according to which
source the author is drawing on at the moment.  For a contrasting
treatment, we have Boorman's [film] "Excalibur", where he did not hesitate
to take liberties for the sake of thematic unity.  <Will Linden>

Bradley, Marion Zimmer.  _The Mists of Avalon_.
  The most enjoyable version of [the Arthurian legends].  It's an enormous
book, and tells the story primarily from the women's point of view, and
does it so well that you end up wondering how the other versions can
possibly leave so much out.  <Laura Baldwin>
  Very interesting, though I wouldn't say it's my favorite.  She goes to
great lengths to include *all* the parts of the legend (or what she sees as
being all the parts), and this makes the book rather over-involved,
sometimes.  But it's good, and an interesting change of point-of-view.
<Anne LaVin>
  My favorite Arthurian novel.  Absolutely excellent. From the characters,
to a very different interpretation of the legends, everything about this
book was WONDERFUL. It is, without a doubt, one of the best books I've ever
read. ( And the only MZB that I liked) <Mark C. Carroll>
  YES !  A fantastic (in every sense of the word) book !  The only
criticism I have against the book (if you can call it criticism) is that I
became too emotionally involved with it.  When Gwenyfar convinced Arthur to
forsake the Pendragon banner I was so mad/sad I didn't know what to do.
And those narrow minded Christian priests !  (Apologies to any followers of
the Christ) ARRGGGHHH !  All in all I thought the telling of the Arthurian
legend from the point of view of the women (Vivane, Igraine, Morgaine,
Morguse, Gwenyfar, etc.) a brilliant idea.  If you want a different slant
on the legend you should definitely read this book.  <Delbert de la Platz>
  I recently inherited this book, and forced myself to read it.  It is very
different, and the only way I could describe it is, "A Feminist Lackey in
King Arthur's Pants".  Oh, yeah :-) <j, greely>
   I didn't notice it being particularly feminist, but perhaps I'm just not
discerning enough.  It IS a good book, but a little daunting to begin with.
<Bruce Holloway>
  It is feminist without being overtly feminist. It is rather overtly
anti-Christian, which I'm sure some folks won't like. It's an appropriate
attitude for that time in history, but I know a number of Christians who
have been offended (they don't like being told what happened in the name of
Christ in Byzantium or the Inquisition, either, for that matter) <Chuq Von
Rospach>
  A very interesting book.  I found that I was very depressed while I was
reading it.  Whether it was due to the book's treatment of the "death" of
magic in the world or personal, I'm not sure.  Very well researched.  It
gives a very interesting picture of the Arthurian legend.  <Cathy Hooper>
  I liked it, but I wouldn't rank it with my favorites.  I don't think she
has quite the skill of White or Stewart to carry it off.  Interesting for a
different view of the source material.  <Brian W. Ogilvie>
  I loved it, very perceptive and added a new perspective.  Sympathized
with the non-christian point of view and discussed the Xtian vs. pagan
conflicts at a philosophical level - i.e. that Arthur had to be King to a
land that was divided along religious lines.  <Anne Louise Gockel>

Bradshaw, Gillian.  _Hawk of May_,
                    _Kingdom of Summer_,  
                    _In Winter's Shadow_.
  Perhaps my favorite Arthurian work to go back and read excerpts from.  It
succeeded for me on all levels: I deeply cared about her characters, she
writes well, she uses magic effectively, and I like her treatment of moral
issues.  The final volume broke my heart and made me feel the tragedy of
the story more than any other treatment. <Bryan Stout>
  I agree with this statement.  Gillian Bradshaw's trilogy is wonderful
reading.  The best part is you really understand the characters and what
they're going through.  The books pull you in and really make you feel the
potential and ultimately the hopelessness of what characters are trying to
achieve.  The third book is very depressing.  That's not her fault, it's
the nature of the legend.  I don't know if the books are still in print.  I
found my copies in a used book store and they were pretty old.  Does anyone
know if she has written anything else? <Joe Herman>
  Sorry, I had to comment on this. It's been a while since I read this
series, but I was deeply disappointed with it at the time. The woman is
definitely an excellent writer, and the books are put together well, but
one major flaw spoiled it for me - The three books are each narrated by a
different character. I remember one being narrated by Gwalchmai (Gawain),
the middle one by someone else, and the last by Gwynhwyvar (Guenevere).
But in the books, they're all exactly the same - the narrating character
seems EXACTLY alike in all three books.  <Mark C. Carroll>
  [I agree that the narrative style is similar, but the characters talk
differently and have different personalities.  The changing point of view
has a strong effect: in the first one we directly see the strong influence
of the Otherworld upon ours; in the second, we share the more remote
bystander's view of Gwalchmai's servant; while in the last, we get almost
no view of it at all.  This contributes very well to sense of having lost
something bright and precious beyond reckoning.]

Cabell, James Branch.  _Jurgen, a Comedy of Justice_.
  [Among his extensive adventures, Jurgen spends some romantic time with
Guenevere before her marriage to Arthur; the Lady of the Lake also
appears.]

Chapman, Vera.  _The King's Damosel_.
                _The Green Knight_.
                _King Arthur's Daughter_.
  [May have been the works to start the telling of the stories from the
women's viewpoint.  Though these tales could have been somewhat better
thought through, I enjoyed them and found they have several interesting new
twists.]

Cherryh, C. J.  _Port Eternity_.
  [A woman in a private space craft has several "made people" as servants
- -- cloned humans with a deep-set phychological programming.  Hers are given
personalities of Arthurian characters, which has important consequences in
a time of crisis.]

Christian, Catherine.  _Pendragon_
  Can't remember the plot.  I liked the book, but as you can tell it wasn't
particularly memorable.  <Anne Louise Gockel>

Cooper, Susan.  _Over Sea, Under Stone_
                _The Dark is Rising_
                _Greenwitch_
                _The Grey King_
                _Silver on the Tree_
  The last two in particular are Arthurian.  These are technically
categorized as juvenile or Young Adult, I believe, but are super
nonetheless (but I have a thing about juvenile fiction, so you may not be
as enamored of them).  The first and third books are less Arthurian (and
not as good), and the title book (actually the second in the series) is
somewhere in the middle (but as superbly written as the last two).  <Katy
Isaacs>

David, Peter.  _Knight Life_.
  Don't forget Peter David's first novel from last year.  Not an immortal
classic, but a lot of fun.  <Ted Nolan>
  I recommend this book, in which Merlin has escaped from his cave, and
Arthur has returned.....to run for Mayor of New York.  This book is funny,
not silly, and has some scary moments, and magic (mostly due to the
presence of Morgan le Fay).  <Karen Williams>

Dickinson, Peter.  _The Weathermonger_.
  [A small expedition is sent from France into England to discover why
technology doesn't work there any more.  The cause is Arthurian.]

Drake, David.  _The Dragon Lord_.
  [A sword-and-sorcery with a couple of mercenaries enlisted in Arthur's
army.  Some fine moments, but the brutality of all the characters put me
off.]

Garner, Alan.  _The Wierdstone of Brisingamen_.
               _The Moon of Gomrath_.
  [Very good juvenile fantasy set in modern England.  It's been too long
since I read it to remember much, but I believe an old wizard in it is
supposed to be Merlin.]

Godwin, Parke.  _Invitation to Camelot_.
  An anthology of Arthur stories, which are all pretty good, by Morgan
Llewellyn, Tanith Lee, Jane Yolen, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, & etc.  Not only
are the stories good, but the anthology is a perfect opportunity to get a
taste of the styles of various authors who have written entire novels on
the subject. <Margaret Pai>
                _Firelord_.
                _Beloved Exile_.
  _Firelord_ approaches the legend from a more historically accurate angle
- - Arthur is a well meaning but not-too-bright Centurion, faced with the
collapse of his empire. It is pretty solid "history-wise", but the Picts
are a little blown out of proportion. Happily, that's good.  <heisterb>
  [The world-view in Parke's novels is much less idealistic than that of
Bradshaw, say -- Arthur and Guenevere are rulers who wield power with a
fair amount of cynicism and manipulation -- but ultimately quite positive.
_Exile_ covers the life of Guenevere after the fall of Arthur; in it she
learns from the Saxons the compassion for common folk that her husband had
learned from the Picts.]

Haldeman, Linda.  _The Lastborn of Elvenwood_.
  [A modern-set fantasy, which deals with the fairy people.  Merlin is an
important secondary character.]

Hanratty, Peter.  _The Book of Mordred_.
                  _The Last Knight of Albion_.
  tBoM covers the early life of Arthur's son, and paints quite a different
picture of this legend.  tLKoA is somewhat of a sequel to the above book,
but not entirely. That is, this takes place 20 years after Arthur's death.
Percevale, now an old man (but still a knight) is wandering about trying to
find Mordred and exact his vengeance.  The book really centers on the truth
he discovers about the world while questing after something else (Mordred).
<Rich Amber>
  [Note: these books are published by Infinity (who does Dungeons & Dragons
books), and are most likely found in games stores.]

Karr, Phyllis Ann.  _The Idylls of the Queen_.
  [A murder-mystery in King Arthur's court.  I haven't read it, but I liked
her short story in _Invitation to Camelot_.]

Kay, Guy Gavriel.  _The Summer Tree_.
                   _The Wandering Fire_.
                   _The Darkest Road_.
  The _Fionavar Tapestry_ trilogy surprized me in its second volume by
bringing in a strong Arthurian element: the three major Arthurian
characters become important actors in the story, and have to deal with the
continuing tragedy of their lives.  Kay's final resolution adds a new twist
to the legend.  <Bryan Stout>
  I really felt that adding Arthur was almost an after-thought and that the
series would have been better without him.  Maybe I was just in a bad mood.
<Anne Louise Gockel>

Kenneally, Patricia.  _Throne of Scone_.
                      _Copper Crown_.
  Arthur is tangential to these books.  There is a Celtic society 'lost in
space' that has been living behind an iron curtain for many years.  They
posses simple magic and have connections with the original Atlantis society
also.  (They left earth in about 1000 AD).  Anyhow, they are in a crisis
with their neighbors - war breaks out.  This coincides with the first ship
from Earth reaching them and the political crises that this brings.
Where's Arthur you say?  Well, the queen decides to go on a quest to find
Arthur's treasures.  The series is full of heroes and adventures, but I
really liked it as light reading.  Kenneally's story is strange in that it
has the Arthurian legends happening as part of the history of the space
colony Keltia.  I.E. Arthur got in his space ship and searched for the Holy
Grail and found it.  A different twist, rather refreshing.  <Anne Louise
Gockel>

[See part 2]

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 14 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Arthurian Recommendations &
                            Hard Science (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 21:01:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Arthurian summary part 2

Summary of Arthurian recommendations, part 2. 
[See the previous explanatory note.]

Original authors are in angle brackets; my comments made at this writing
appear in square brackets.  Bryan Stout.

Laubenthal, Sanders Anne.  _Excalibur_.
  A delightful surprise: an Arthurian fantasy set in modern Mobile,
Alabama, which really worked.  I enjoyed the way she developed the story
from a mundane level to one with supernatural overtones, and I was
intrigued to the meaning she infused into the twin quests for the Grail and
the Sword.  <Bryan Stout>
  This involves a fanciful local legend (in Mobile) that has celtic
contemporaries of Arthur arriving in Mobile Bay in the 1100's.  They set up
a colony there, there is betrayal (involving Morgan le Fay, etc) and so on.
The book is written from the viewpoint of a modern young girl who slips in
and out of the old time, current time, and faery time: the Grail and
Excalibur figure in the climax and resolution.  A very good read,
particularly if you are drawn to fantasy.  <chuck puckett>

Lawhead, Steven R.  _Taliesin_.
  [I haven't read it, but it looks like the first of a new Arthurian
series.  It is published by a Christian publisher (Century Press?), so look
for it in Christian bookstores.]

Lewis, C. S.  _That Hideous Strength_.
  [The final volume of the "Perelandra" trilogy, it's set in modern
England.  The fisher-king motif is important here, and Merlin is an
important character.]

MacLiesh, R.  _Prince Ombra_.
  _Prince Ombra_ really doesn't have much to do with Arthur, but the
reference stuck in my mind, because it has a very interesting
interpretation of the historical Arthur (how exactly DID he pull a sword
from a stone?).  Also, _Ombra_ follows the basic pattern of the Arthur
stories, and has a great premise for its own story, which fits almost every
hero story you can think of, incl. Arthur. (On purpose, btw).  <Margaret
Pai>

Malory, Sir Thomas.  _Le Morte d'Arthur_.
  It is the source of much of what we know about Arthurian traditions, and
it's also a good story, or rather a good series of stories.  In fact, you
could almost call it an anthology of sorts, because Malory didn't come up
with the stories all by himself, he retold stories which had originally
been told by others (Malory's versions tended to be better than the
originals, especially the part about Galahad, which came from some priests
who went very heavy on the religious symbolism and weren't interested in
telling a good story).  Also, Malory had a first-hand familiarity with the
customs, technology, etc., of the Middle Ages, which gave him a big
advantage over any modern author trying to write about a medieval setting.
Other writers of early Arthurian stories included Goeffry of Monmouth,
Marie de France, Layamon (or Lachamon), Chretien de Troyes, and Wolfram von
Eschenbach (I hope that I remembered all of those right).  <Alex Clark>
  Well, actually Arthur is first mentioned by the Venerable Bede in the 8th
century, but yes, most of the romantic tales do come from Malory.  In my
opinion, most of the modern Arthurian tales are descended more from T.H.
White than Malory.  I found Malory very tedious to read.  The problem is
that he has first hand familiarity with the customs, technology etc. of the
Middle Ages.  We do not.  There is a bit of a culture gap in reading
Malory.  I think if you want to read Malory, make sure you have a good
translator who isn't afraid to take a few liberties (er..poetic license).
I prefer a writer who can relate the essence of the tale, while
transforming it into a modern viewpoint.  It's much easier to understand
and appreciate.  I find when reading old stories, that a brief foray into a
history book helps.  It gives you a perspective of the audience for which
the book is intended.  One thing that surprised me was the amount of
violence in Geoffrey of Monmouth's work.  And people complain about T.V....
<Joe Herman>
  The Signet translation is pretty readable and interesting (taking into
account that something centuries old ain't gonna be as easy reading as a
contemporary version!) <Russ Williams>
  If you're gonna read Malory, read _Malory:_Works_, edited by Eugene
Vinaver, Oxford U. Press. This version is based on a different MS.  than
Caxton's printing of _Le_Morte_D'Arthur_ ("closer than Caxton's text to
what Mallory actually wrote, [and] livlier too."). You may be a bit
intimidated by the 15th century spellings, but don't be. It's pretty easy
to get the hang of and fun, too. (Well, *I* enjoyed it, but I'm a little
sick).  <Mary Tabasko>
  I also liked Malory himself, and Steinbeck's _The Acts of King Arthur and
his Noble Knights_ (or some such title) is a good condensation for those
who don't have the patience for Malory.  <Brian W. Ogilvie>

Marxhall, Edison.  _The Pagan King_.
  This is a very wild and grim rendition which seems closer to the Celtic
originals.  He also introduces some moving verse (especially the excerpts
from "The Song of Camlon" [sic]; and an odd pattern of allusions to "King
Lear". In a twist, he ends with Artay disappearing into obscurity to
_create his own legend_.  Also particularly attractive is the depiction of
his ambivalent relation with his half-brother Modred. His final word is "In
the song of Arthur paint me as black as Modo if you like, but do not leave
me out." And the reader joins the answering cry of "Live, Modred, for the
sake of all who love bravery and mirth."  <Will Linden>

Monaco, Richard,  _Parsival, or a Knight's Tale_.
                  _The Grail War_.
                  _The Final Quest_.
  Contemporary retellings which I read about 8 years ago and enjoyed.
<Russ Williams>
  [From comments I've heard elsewhere, these books are rather graphic and
brutal.  Is the story worth it (not a rhetorical question)?]

Munn, H. Warner.  _Merlin's Godson_.
                  _Merlin's Ring_.
  With both books he manages to throw in Atlantis, Aztecs, Amerindians,
Satan, some Vikings, the Romans, the Celts and Joan of Arc too.  I won't
say anything more (maybe I've said too much already :-)) except that it's
(in my opinion) done VERY well.  <J.R. Schectman>
  These are not about Arthur, per se, but are based on the traditional
canon.  From the blurbs I've read on their backs, it deals with after
Arthur's death, but that's all I know. <Margaret Pai>

Newman, Sharan.  _Guinevere_.
                 _The Chessboard Queen_.
                 _Guinevere Evermore_.
  I've only read books 1-2.  These books are ok, but I wasn't particularly
impressed.  <Anne Louise Gockel>

Norton, Andre.  _Merlin's Mirror_.
  This book presented Merlin as the last member of a failed
extraterrestrial colony or an outpost on Earth.  Morgana was a member of
another alien race that Merlin's race was at war with.  My memory of the
book is rather vague as it's been a while.  <Cathy Hooper>

Powers, Tim.  _The Drawing of the Dark_.
  Reading this book put me on a binge of Arthurian reading, as well as
snapping up anything by Powers as fast as it comes into print.  <George
Cohn III>
  [This is set during the 1500's, when Turkey threatens Vienna.  A unique
view of the return of Arthur.  Only Powers could through Arthurian legend,
Norse myth, and real history together in a convincing way.  The "Dark"
wasn't at all what I thought it would mean.]

Seare, Nicholas.  _Rude Tales & Glorious_.
  An off-the-wall (and highly irreverent) version of the Arthurian stories.
My copy is British, published by Granada in 1985, ISBN 0-586-06101-0.
<Cyril N. Alberga>

Steinbeck, John.  _The Acts of King Arthur and his Noble Knights_.
  (Yes, that guy!)  It is, if I remember correctly, a sort-of translation
of Malory, processed through Steinbeck's brain, of course.  Not too bad,
but pretty traditional.  Nothing new that I recall.  <Margaret Pai>
  It's basically a retelling of the Morte d'Artur, I think - not
particularly changed at all, only translated into modern English.  It isn't
as much a chronicle of the main legend, but of all the adventures of the
knights - Gawain and Percical and all those.  It improves steadily
throughout the book (in an afterword, Steinbeck explains this by saying
that Mallory did this as well), but ends at what I would consider rather a
cliffhanger.  It seemed more like the book stopped, rather than ended.
<Laura Baldwin>

Stewart, Mary.  _The Crystal Cave_.
                _The Hollow Hills_.
                _The Last Enchantment_.
                _The Wicked Day_.
  I would have to choose the Mary Stewart novels as my favorites.  <Phil>
  The fourth is wonderful.  Books 1 and 2 are ok.  _The Wicked Day_
concerns the final confrontations between Mordred and Authur.  Mary
Stewart's point of view is basically that the whole confrontation is a
series of mis-understandings.  Mordred is really acting to protect his
father's interest; due to unrest in the kingdom he is forced to marry
Guinivere to protect her.  He doesn't have a chance to explain the
situation to his father.  Mordred is really the good guy and chance sets up
an unhappy series of events.  As I remember, books 1-3 were from Merlin's
point of view.  Even if you don't like books 1-3, read book 4!!!  <Anne
Louise Gockel>
  I really recommend the Mary Stewart books.  I think her treatment of the
magic and mysticism in the stories is the most "believable".  <Anne LaVin>
  A very compelling view of the situation from Merlin's point of view (and
a fine set of novels no matter what the involvement with Arthurian legend).
<Brian W. Ogilvie> An excellent treatment on the Arthurian legend with a
lighter emphasis on fantasy than most.  <Keith Vaglienti>

Sutcliff, Rosemary.  _The Lantern Bearers_.
                     _Sword at Sunset_.
                     _The Sword and the Circle_.
                     _Tristan and Iseult_.
                     _The Light Beyond the Forest:
                               The Quest for the Holy Grail_.
                     _The Road to Camlann_.
  [I haven't read these, but I have read several critics state that _Sword
at Sunset_ is among the best Arthurian historical novels; and it seems to
have had an important influence on Stewart and Bradshaw.  tLB takes place
in the years before Arthur's rise, and is written for younger readers, as
are the last four, which are retellings of most of the Arthurian cycle,
based mainly on Malory.]

Twain, Mark.  _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court_.
  [I guess I couldn't really leave this out, it being one of the classic
ironic treatments of the legend.]

White, T. H.  _The Once and Future King_.  (Four parts:
                            _The Sword in the Stone_,
                            _The Queen of Air and Darkness_,
                            _The Ill-Made Knight_,
                            _The Candle in the Wind_.)
              _The Book of Merlin_.
  One of the most influential modern Arthurian novels.  The two parts which
stand out most in my mind are the first and third.  They are quite
different in feel: the former is a joyful romp through Arthur's boyhood,
and has both love of life and effective zany humor in it; the latter is a
moving exploration of Lancelot, a man of many strengths and some important
weaknesses, and their conflict in his life forms much of the strength in
this work.  BTW, there are three different versions of tSitS: the British
edition, the American edition, and the omnibus version in tO&FK.  Each has
episodes unique to it.  Though I enjoyed the Walt Disney film based on it
when it first came out in my childhood, a more recent viewing disappointed
me -- it lacked most of the meaning in the book.  <Bryan Stout>
  For my money, it is without even a close runnerup.  Both Disney's "The
Sword in The Stone" and Lerner & Lowe's "Camelot" were based on it.  It
treats the story from a uniquely modern perspective, adding depth to the
characterizations (which, in older sources, particularly "Le Morte de
Arthur", are planar one-dimensional figures).  Even more delightful is the
incredible reality brought to the book by White's attention to detail: he
obviously did extensive research. the book was written in the 30's (I
believe), and easily rates on my top 5 list of all time.  <chuck puckett>
  It is a whimsical approach to the legends, but is fun to read.
Supposedly, White based the story on _Le_Morte_D'Artur_, by Thomas Mallory,
which is supposedly the "definitive" Arthur story (written sometime in the
late middle-ages, early Renaissance--I never could get through it, sort of
like reading the Iliad).  _The Book of Merlin_ wasn't as good, I thought
(is there ever a sequel that is?).  <Phil>

Williams, Charles.  _Taliesin through Logres_.
                    _The Region of the Summer Stars_.
  Anyone interested in poetic visions of the Arthurian tales should find a
copy.  CW (one of the Inklings, with C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien) was
fascinated by the Matter of Britain and the Grail; the poems concern the
travels of Taliesin, Arthur's court poet, and others in a mostly
allegorical Britain and Byzantium.  There is a great deal of Christian
symbolism, much of it very obscure but pleasant.  They are available from
William Eerdmans Co.  (sp.?), in a single volume, along with essays by
Williams and Lewis on the figure of Arthur and the history of the Grail.
The poetry is, in my humble opinion, quite good, and the essays are
well-researched.  Readers of C.S.  Lewis might be interested to note that
the quote in That Hideous Strength from "Taliesin Through Logres" ("All
lies in a passion of patience, my Lord's rule") was actually taken by Lewis
from Williams' work; in the novel, however, the author of the quote was not
named...  <VM5F97@wvnvm.BITNET>
                    _War in Heaven_.
  [A modern tale where the Grail appears.  I can't remember too much about
it except it wasn't an easily-understood tale.]

Woolley, Persia.  _Child of the Northern Spring_.
  This is the story of Gwen's childhood/young adulthood, up to the point of
marrying Arthur.  Quite different than the usual stuff.  <Rich Amber>
  Newly published, it is billed as a first novel.  No recommendations, I
just got my hands on it, but it is at least a different perspective.
Poseidon Press (Simon & Schuster), 1987, hardcover 428pp, ISBN
0-671-62200-5.  <Kent>

Yolen, Jane.
  If you can find them, Jane Yolen's stories about Merlin and the young
Arthur are good reading.  One is printed in _Tales of Wonder_ (a GREAT book
to read if you can find it) and some recent ones have been printed in
Fantasy and Science Fiction.  <Brian W. Ogilvie>

Zelazny, Roger.  _The Last Defender of Camelot_.
  Deals with Merlin, Lancelot, and Morgan Le Fey in the modern world.  An
excellent short story and a must read.  <Keith Vaglienti>
  I will second the opinions of "Last Defender of Camelot" (but I'll read
anything by Zelazny and enjoy it too!) and the Mary Stewart books.  <J.R.
Schectman>
  [Lancelot make an appearance in _The Guns of Avalon_.]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 18:14:54 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt)
Subject: hard science

Anybody got good recommendations for "hard science" science fiction?  I
enjoy Niven and Forward, but haven't run into nearly enough stuff to keep
up with my reading.

Suggestions, anyone?

jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 04:30:20 GMT
From: choo-young-il@cs.yale.edu (Young-il Choo)
Subject: Re: hard science

jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu.UUCP (James W. Meritt) writes:
>Anybody got good recommendations for "hard science" science fiction?  I
>enjoy Niven and Forward, but haven't run into [...]
>
>Suggestions, anyone?

You want "hard science" SF?  Try Stanislaw Lem's _Fiasco_ (HBJ).  His other
fiction are good too, but they are not quite "people in spaceships
exploring other worlds of wonder" type.  _His Master' Voice_ is about a
mathematician's perspective on a major government effort to decipher a
"message" from space.  _Solaris_ follows a psychologist sent to a
scientific station floating above an ocean-covered planet which seems to be
"sentient".

Young-il Choo
Yale Computer Science
choo-young-il@yale.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 14 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:

	      Films - Willow  (2 msgs) & Star Wars (5 msgs) &
                      Dolls & Beetlejuice (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 88 18:07:56 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

What they are undoubtedly talking about is the new movie "Willow" by George
Lucas, the creator of "Star Wars", to be released this May.  Supposedly,
originally, Lucas wanted to do three major movies, a space opera (Star
Wars), an adventure homage (Raiders Of The Lost Ark), and a fantasy
(Willow).  None of the clips I've seen at previews have shown anything much
at all, just tantalizing as hell.

Everett Kaser

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 88 09:59:02 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

everett@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Everett Kaser) writes:
>What they are undoubtedly talking about is the new movie "Willow" by
>George Lucas, the creator of "Star Wars", to be released this May.

Note that the paperback is already out. I don't really recommend it,
though. It is adapted by one guy from a screenplay by another guy based on
a story by George Lucas, and it shows...it reads like a hastily adapted
screenplay. Screenplays and novels are two different art forms with
different strategies required in each to accomplish the same purpose
(generally speaking). If you don't allow someone enough creative control to
change the strategy in places, then the result will be weak.

The book Willow *is* weak, but it whet my appetite for the movie. I kept
thinking "only LucasFilms could do this justice" because it is hard core
fantasy. Most folks crank out very bad grade B movies when they don't have
the creativity, the budget, or the special effects technology to make total
fantasy appear real. LucasFilms *might* pull it off. Hope so!  "Starwars"
and "Raiders" both had tremendous influence in creating markets for science
fiction and fantasy adventure movies and books.

If "Willow" is done carefully, it could be great. If it is only as good as
the book, though, well...

Doug Merritt
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!eris!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 16:32:25 GMT
From: sef@csun.uucp (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

everett@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Everett Kaser) writes:
>What they are undoubtedly talking about is the new movie "Willow" by
>George Lucas, the creator of "Star Wars", to be released this May.

No, what they are undoubtedly talking about is the first episode of the
Star Wars 9-ology (I know there's a word, I just don't want to look it up
8-)).  If you watch SW again, you'll notice that it is 'Episode IV,' which
would make it the first episode in the second trilogy, out of a trilogy of
trilogy (tri**2-logy?).  After SW was released, while he was working on
ESB, I read an interview with Lucas in which he stated that he envisioned
the thing as 10 parts: (1,2,3),(4,5,6),(7,8,9),10, where 1-3 were about the
rise of the Empire, 4-6 were about the Rebellion, 7-9 were about (I forget
what), and then 10 to clean everything up.

>Supposedly, originally, Lucas wanted to do three major movies, a space
>opera (Star Wars), an adventure homage (Raiders Of The Lost Ark), and a
>fantasy (Willow).  None of the clips I've seen at previews have shown
>anything much at all, just tantalizing as hell.

Actually, I'd thought Willow was already released...

Sean Fagan
CSUN Computer Center         
Northridge, CA 91330
(818) 885-2790
uucp:   {ihnp4,hplabs,psivax}!csun!sef
BITNET: 1GTLSEF@CALSTATE

------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 21:53:57 GMT
From: davidbe@sco.com
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

New Star Wars movie?  So what...big deal...

Is there anyone out there who like the Star Wars series, but doesn't really
CARE about Anakin Skywalker, and how he became Darth Vader?  Much less
make it a trilogy?

I want the LAST three movies in the series.  Just imagine...Han and Leia's
children, trained in the Force, having to go out and fighting something...
probably someone Luke trained and has turned to the dark side...

They could do the whole SW trilogy over again...

David Bedno
610 Pacific Ave #5
Santa Cruz, California 95060
Home:408-425-5266
Work:408-425-7222 x697
davidbe@sco.COM
...!{uunet,ihnp4,decvax!microsoft,ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!davidbe

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 16:47:50 GMT
From: duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

davidbe@sco.COM writes:
>New Star Wars movie?  So what...big deal...  Is there anyone out there who
>like the Star Wars series, but doesn't really CARE about Anakin Skywalker,
>and how he became Darth Vader?

Yes I do. Far more interesting than the Star Wars trilogy. Requires good
acting though. I'd love to see the original Jedi's. Creation of Darth. Obi
Wan's youth.

>I want the LAST three movies in the series.  Just imagine...Han and Leia's
>children, trained in the Force, having to go out and fighting something...
>probably someone Luke trained and has turned to the dark side...  They
>could do the whole SW trilogy over again...

I t's been done before! What a waste! If you want that just rent the tapes
from a video store.

Jim Duncan

------------------------------

Date: 3 Apr 88 21:47:56 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

sef@csun.UUCP (Sean Fagan) writes:
>everett@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Everett Kaser) writes:
>>What they are undoubtedly talking about is the new movie "Willow" by
>>George Lucas, the creator of "Star Wars", to be released this May.
>
>No, what they are undoubtedly talking about is the first episode of the
>Star Wars 9-ology (I know there's a word, I just don't want to look it up
>8-)).  I read an interview with Lucas in which he stated that he
>envisioned the thing as 10 parts: (1,2,3),(4,5,6),(7,8,9),10, where 1-3
>were about the rise of the

Actually, no one ever mentioned an Episode 10.  George Lucas collaborated
with Leigh Brackett to come up with a total of 3 trilogies--that's it.

>>a fantasy (Willow).  None of the clips I've seen at previews have shown
>>anything much at all, just tantalizing as hell.
>
>Actually, I'd thought Willow was already released...

...and the previews referred to by the original netwriter >was< Willow,
which will open late May, and has nothing at all to do with Star Wars, as
you had written.  Clone Wars (as the first trilogy is referred to) is only
in the plotting/storyboard stage.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 21:36:42 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: New Star Wars movie?

davidbe@sco.COM writes:
>New Star Wars movie?  So what...big deal...
>Is there anyone out there who like the Star Wars series, but doesn't
>really CARE about Anakin Skywalker, and how he became Darth Vader?  Much
>less make it a trilogy?

   Yep.  Because we are going to need to know things that will come out in
the first 3 parts to follow the last three.  Basic storytelling...

>I want the LAST three movies in the series.  Just imagine...Han and Leia's
>children, trained in the Force, having to go out and fighting something...
>probably someone Luke trained and has turned to the dark side...  They
>could do the whole SW trilogy over again...

   Far more likely is that one or more of the children will go bad and a
far older Luke (or, much better, a trained Leah) will have to do the honors
of putting down this new threat to their galaxy.

   Probably the most interesting way to do it is for Luke to be for
out-and-out killing them, with Leah being the more moderate approach of
conciliation (harking back to Luke's roll in the middle three movies.)

[Related but different:]

   People, do you think Luke is going to have to pay a price for his lapses
in Return of the Jedi?  Or is he going to get away with his attempt to kill
the Emperor and the later one where he nearly kills Darth Vader?  It's a
question that's been bothering me ever since I first saw the movie.  I've
seen it several times on cable now and I *still* can't decide.

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 17:47:07 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: DOLLS

				   DOLLS
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  Often charming little horror piece done
     to near-perfection further establishes Empire Pictures'
     reputation for being *the* creative horror film maker of
     today--perhaps a latter-day Hammer Films.  Rating: high +1.

     Back in the mid-1950s while the science fiction film was first
blossoming, the horror film was foundering.  The Universal cycle that
started in 1930 had gone into unconscious, then self-conscious self-parody
and died a decade before.  Horror films meant shoddy productions in which
neurotic teenagers turned into vampires or werewolves or Frankenstein
monsters.  Then in 1957 budget studio Hammer Films tried some radically new
approaches to horror films and turned out well-made products and the horror
film was reborn.

     Today the horror film is foundering in self-parody, in teen-age films,
and in innumerable repeats of being chased by a bogeyman whom you cannot
kill.  Knock him down and he just gets up (HALLOWEEN 1 and 2, FRIDAY THE
13TH PART N, THE TERMINATOR, THE HITCHER, etc., etc.--even the final
sequence of FATAL ATTRACTION).

     The one-time rip-off producer who *is* exercising different nightmares
and making some of the most creative horror films today is Charles Band's
Empire Pictures.  That is the company who made the HOUSE films, THE RE-
ANIMATOR, and FROM BEYOND.  Among their most creative is TROLL which
started as a film about a troll running around murdering people.  When the
decision was made that the film had to be rated PG, the gore was
eliminated, the horror toned down, and both were replaced by a heavy dose
of high fantasy.  TROLL is uneven but often charming and surprisingly
entertaining.  More recently they have released DOLLS. a sort of horror
fairy tale in the tradition of A. E. Merritt that is also creative,
charming, and entertaining, but with a much better sense of mood and
atmosphere than TROLL had.

     During a storm six people are stranded in an old house with a
mysterious old toymaker (one-time British swashbuckling star Guy Rolfe) and
his wife.  The house is full of toys and especially dolls.  The two
visitors who are young in heart enough find all the dolls enchanting.  The
other four find being surrounded by toys *deadly dull*.  Of course, as the
evening wears on they find it less and less dull and more and more deadly.
Like an episode of the old TWILIGHT ZONE episode it is not very surprising
where the story is going, but the telling of the story is nicely and
originally done with enough special effects to capture the imagination but
not so much as to distract from the people.

     DOLLS is a gentle film with a gentle message and just a tad too much
gore--as if it is walking a line between EC Comics and TWILIGHT ZONE, but
in a market where filmmakers are retreading each other's ideas, DOLLS
recently released to cassette, is something different.  The story is fairly
(not entirely) new and done with nice production values.  The same could
have been said of Hammer Films' first big success, CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN.
Rate it a high +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 00:48:37 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: BEETLEJUICE

				BEETLEJUICE
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  An incredibly forgettable film about
     ghosts trying to scare away new owners of their house.  The
     very minimal plot is an excuse to load on piles of gratuitous
     special effects that do very little for the story.  Rating: -1.

     Excuse me if this review is not very well constructed.  I have to
write it very, very quickly.  I just saw BEETLEJUICE, an extremely
forgettable fantasy film.  So much so that even as I walked out of the
theater, large pieces of the film were being forgotten forever.  Why is
BEETLEJUICE so forgettable?  I guess because the producers had so much
budget and so little story.  It is not that it was a bad story.  It was
co-authored by Michael McDowell, one of the leading modern horror writers,
but it was about four pages worth of story and the rest was just
lathered-on special effects.  Remembering the film entails remembering the
list of special effects, mostly totally gratuitous, that were laid on at at
various points in the minimal story.

     The story of BEETLEJUICE involves...(oh, rats.  What was it about?
oh, yes!) a young couple who live in a rustic little town and love their
old house.  They are in a car accident and are killed.  Now is this where
they see the ghost with the shrunken head and the smoker who was charred to
a cinder?  No, I think that's later in the plot.  Oh, well, it doesn't
really matter.  Anyway, they go back to their house and can get in but
can't get out again.  Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is where they had the
alien landscape special effect and the giant sandworm.  That's what they
face if they leave the house.  Wait, that doesn't make sense--they were
just outside the house.  Well, I guess making sense doesn't matter.  And
then, yes, that's it, some not very nice people buy the house and start to
remodel it.  The ghosts don't like that, so try to scare the new owners.
Now is this where they rip their faces off altogether or is this where they
just stretch their faces into funny shapes?  Doesn't matter, I guess.  So
where does Beetlejuice fit into this?  Well, first off there is nobody
named "Beetlejuice."  There is someone named Betelguese, like the star, and
that's pronounced "Beetle juice," but then why isn't the film called
BETELGUESE?  Darned if I know!  Anyway, Betelguese fits in later in the
plot.  But don't worry about the plot.  The filmmakers didn't.

     The star of the film is Geena Davis who is attractive enough to
occasionally upstage the special effects.  She may be familiar from
television work or from her role in the remake of THE FLY.  Alec Baldwin is
forgettable as her husband.  Jeffrey Jones as the new owner is used to
being upstaged by special effects as in HOWARD THE DUCK.  And Michael
Keaton was on hand as (uh, give me a second), oh yes, in the title role.
No, wait, there was nobody in the title role.  Well, anyway, give this
tournee of mediocre special effects a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 06:37:08 GMT
From: tecot@apple.com (Ed Tecot)
Subject: Re: BEETLEJUICE

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>				 BEETLEJUICE
>		       A film review by Mark R. Leeper
>
>	  Capsule review:  An incredibly forgettable film about
>     ghosts trying to scare away new owners of their house.  The
>     very minimal plot is an excuse to load on piles of gratuitous
>     special effects that do very little for the story.  Rating: -1.

I'm appalled.  Usually Mark writes good reviews and tends to be a good
judge of films.  He missed on this one, and I feel compelled to correct
him.

This film is FUN!  The writers put in humor for all ages - wild, wacky
slapstick for the younger ones and more subtle jokes for the older folks.

The soundtrack is excellent.  I'm not a Harry Belafonte fan, but I'm still
singing Day-O to myself.

>Remembering the film entails remembering the list of special effects,
>mostly totally gratuitous, that were laid on at at various points in the
>minimal story.

Hardly!  Remembering the film brings back several subtle jokes, such as all
suicides being doomed to an afterlife in the civil service.

>Well, first off there is nobody named "Beetlejuice."  There is someone
>named Betelguese, like the star, and that's pronounced "Beetle juice," but
>then why isn't the film called BETELGUESE?  Darned if I know!

It's Betelgeuse.  The film is named after the clues he gives the daughter.

>     The star of the film is Geena Davis who is attractive enough to
>occasionally upstage the special effects.  She may be familiar from
>television work or from her role in the remake of THE FLY.  Alec Baldwin
>is forgettable as her husband.  Jeffrey Jones as the new owner is used to
>being upstaged by special effects as in HOWARD THE DUCK.  And Michael
>Keaton was on hand as (uh, give me a second), oh yes, in the title role.
>No, wait, there was nobody in the title role.  Well, anyway, give this
>tournee of mediocre special effects a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

I thought Micheal Keaton performed wonderfully in the title role.  I'd also
give an honorable mention to the young girl whose name escapes me.

Pay no attention to Mark, he was obviously suffering from humor deficiency
syndrome during his screening.  GO SEE THIS FILM!

emt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 15 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:

		Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anthony (4 msgs) &
                        Clement (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 18:24:48 GMT
From: john@hpsrla.hp.com (John McLaughlin)
Subject: New Douglas Adams?

   I have heard that there is a new Douglas Adams Hitchhikers book (the
fifth?) can anyone confirm this?

   thanx 

John

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 18:15:37 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: New Douglas Adams?

>I have heard that there is a new Douglas Adams Hitchhikers book (the
>fifth?) can anyone confirm this?

I believe this is false. A recent interview with Adams mentioned a sequel
to "Dirk Gently", and said that it would be the last book in that trilogy,
the logic being that he needed a two book trilogy to balance out his four
book trilogy. By implication, this means he isn't planning a fifth
Hitchhiker's book unless he later wants to write a one book trilogy.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 20:55:41 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Re: Incarnations of Immortality (Anthony bashing)

matoh@teorix.liu.se (Mats Ohrman) writes:
>Don't you think this gauntlet reminds you of a well known magician from
>Xanth (Not to mention a lot of other places in Anthony books)?  [And
>especially a badly run AD&D campaign? :-) ]

Actually, the gauntlet didn't remind me of Xanth stories, though I can see
why they might remind you of them.  As to other Anthony books, I've not
read as many as others in this group, but I can not currently place who the
gauntlet was for in the Blue Adapt stories, nor the book Pretender.  I'm
sure you'll correct me though.

[As for poorly run AD&D campaigns, I've never run into a 3-puzzle-
gauntlet-to-get-to-person-with-answer-to-vital-question situation.  I'd
settle for puzzles of hack-and-slash anyway.]

>>I think I would prefer Time's job because I've always been wild about
>>Time paradox problems and it would give me a chance to examine them...
>>:-)
>>
>
>Remember, Time is *immune* against paradoxes! How boring! :-)
>
>Isn't it marvellous how someone can destroy some absolutely fascinating
>ideas...

Time is immune to paradoxes, but others aren't.  Since time is immune he
could actually study them as an objective observer.  Why, what would Time's
position be if someone on that world discovered time travel?  If an alien
ship traveling at light speed approached the planet, could time adjust to
"visit" these aliens?

All manner of other questions come up, but I won't bore you any more than I
have.  As another writer has implied, my mind can't be much more advanced
than a 12 year olds...

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 01:44:20 GMT
From: jac@devo.rutgers.edu (Jonathan A. Chandross)
Subject: Anthony and cretinism.

Some history for those of you who just tuned in.  I had blasted that
epitome of inept writers, Piers Anthony.

   Macroscope is a prime example of Anthony's inability to craft a story.
   I enjoyed the book up until the last 40 or so pages.  It soon became
   clear that he had no idea how to end the story and so he just gave up.

dmw3@ur-tut (Dave ) writes:
>   Awww, his second book didn't have a nice complete understandable
>concise ending, so you've got to say he's unable to craft a story.  Even
>you admit that the book was enjoyable for most of its length.  The ending
>was a study, yes, that word again, in people being chased by the ghosts of
>their past and the ghosts of their imagination.  If Anthony's works often
>ended in

This is hardly true.  After all, I read Pynchon and his stories rarely have
nicely bundled endings.  I objected to the fact the ending was not only
trite, but also poorly constructed.  The book was a masterpiece up until
the ending.  Anthony had crafted a plot web so intricate that it proved to
be his undoing: he had created something which outstripped his abilities as
a writer.  If one is going to "do a study", to borrow your most erudite
phrasing, one should take care to do a proper job.  I would suggest that
you read _Crime and Punishment_ for the quintessential example of an
individual pursued by his past.  It does do one good to stop outside the SF
ghetto once every blue moon.  And as long as you're out, why not pick up
some William Faulkner, Joseph Conrad, and Sinclair Lewis.  You'll see how a
decent writer deals with the subject.  Your high school library should have
them.

>Afraid not.  The books also feature men who abuse, and hate themselves for
>it.  This is the character development that I was speaking of.  You
>evidently read into the stories an attitude that Anthony was actually
>denouncing: the society that allows people to grow up with an inability to
>love normally.  I'm talking about men and women both, in these stories.
>The

I reiterate: de Sade did it better in _Justine_.  Or perhaps that was a
little to fast for you: d-e S-a-d-e d-i-d i-t b-e-t-t-e-r.  Not only does
Anthony plagerize the ideas of the Marquis, but he fails to convey the
horror that permeates de Sade's works.  Theft is rarely considered literary
technique, and to bungle the theft only makes it worse.  In fact, Anthony's
plagerism is so biased in the direction of titilation that I have no
recourse but to assume
   (1) the book was written for 12 year olds to masturbate to
   (2) Anthony genuinely believes this.

>love normally.  I'm talking about men and women both, in these stories.

De Sade deals with both men and women in his stories.  You might take a
break from the newest Janet & Isaac Asimov book to read some of his works.
I'll buy you a copy if the bookseller refuses to sell such a dangerous book
to a mere youth.

>pirate society in _Bio_ inured their children, men and women both, to the
>idea that rape was the normal course of events.  The protagonist (someone
>you fail to mention) was disgusted by this attitude and fought for years
>to turn it around.

But whilest on his crusade he engages in the very thing he abhors.  How can
you seriously believe that a character is so repulsed by a facet of
societies behavior while he wages a war to end it he engages in it? Surely
this abrupt volte face is suspicious?  Consider the following quote (which
I dug up in Nietzsche's _Beyond Good and Evil_.)

   "The degree and kind of a person's sexuality reaches up into
   the topmost summit of his spirit"	

Forgive me for quoting someone outside the SF genre.  I realize that it's
dirty pool, so to speak, given your blatantly deficient education.

>   If the pirate woman was only a reincarnation of the minionette, please
>excuse Anthony for taking ideas from his first, obscure, novel and
>installing them in another story.  No doubt you will also accuse him of
>lack of imagination, but when you write almost a hundred books in the
>course of less than twenty years, I think a little idea-doubling is
>excusable.

Spoken like a true Asimov fan.  <Clap Clap>.  "Idea doubling", to use your
idiom, is a perfectly acceptable literary technique given the ability to
use it correctly.  Mindlessly repeating drivel ad nauseum is the hallmark
of the inept and the feeble-minded.  Cannonization is rarely granted for
the dubious distinction of authoring five score of atrocious books.  Any
more "tips from the masters" for us?

>Anthony may be paranoid of outside matters controlling his life, he may
>even be paranoid of other people (and some of them women, since they make
>up a large portion of the population) controlling his life, and that shows
>in his work.  Read it with this in mind, and you might see what I mean.

I suggest that you look up the word "paranoid" in a good dictionary (Not
Websters, try a Random House or OED).  You use it erroneously.  Do you have
source to back up your paranoia claims?  Perhaps it is merely conjecture?
In any event, you have just proven my point.  Anthony fears women.
Curiously enough, so do most rapists.  After all, we all do know that rape
is not a sexual act, but rather an act of domination.

>violence? he asks.  When the people are convinced that violence and sadism
>are the natural order of things, they become like the Minions, he says.
>They become incapable of love, of true affection.  Like the Minion.

The Minions are masochists.  From Sacher-Masoch.  Look it up.  And the
Minion are most emphatically not incapable of love.  They crave abuse, nay
thrive one it, and only love their "liberator."  Do you remember the reason
that the Minion were created?  Hmmmmm?  Because someone wanted a woman to
kick around who really *wanted it*.

>And I imagine you denounce Ellison's "A Boy and His Dog" and others of its
>quality (it won the Nebula) because they "condone" violence to women.

"A Boy and His Dog" does not condone violence towards women in the same way
that Anthony's work does.  Anthony says, in effect, "hey, it's ok to feel
this way -- they *LIKE* it."  This is what I find disgusting.  Ellison's
work is purely comical, Anthony's adolescently purile.

>Disgusted at the stunted perceptions modern society teaches,

I am continually disgusted at the abortion that is euphemistically known as
modern high school teaching.  Dear Brutus, you must realize that SF is but
a microcosm of literature.  There are thousands more books of merit than
you even know exist.  Why not try one of them?

Jonathan A. Chandross
ARPA: jac@paul.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!jac@paul.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 21:58:12 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Incarnations of Immortality (Anthony bashing)

rwhite@nusdhub.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes:
>The real problem with the incarnations series is that it lacked balance.
>[in two ways].
>
>War should retire to the "council of marshals" who are given free-roam of
>the universe, but who remain in purgatory indefinitely, each appointing
>his successor.

Yes, and can you imagine the lot of them kibitzing on what the "new kid"
was doing? I agree with all the text I deleted about war, by the way.

I should say, before I go on, that I haven't read the fifth book yet.

>2) I think Anthony needed someone to run purgatory [c.f. heaven and hell]
>I would have added the incarnation of balance.  I would have put him on
>the same level as god or satan.  "Balance" would have made all the
>artifacts of office for the other incarnations, and his token would have
>been a small lump of "anything" which is the left-over from making the
>skien, cloak, sword, etc.  Balance would be the referee over the contest
>between god and satan.

   Well, this would have been nice, but it seemed that the whole thing was
that Satan was Evil, and all of the other incarnations were there to oppose
him, and in no way were they working to maintain balance. Except in the
sense that the most Good they could do by opposing Satan was to keep him
from making any more progress. So even though they were maintaining
Balance, they were really working for good. Do you think that if the scales
were tipped the other way, and the world was becoming too Good a place,
they would/should have joined up with Satan?

>On the god and satan bit, I would have added that, instead of god "blindly
>honoring" some compact I would have had Balance throw God in the "penalty
>box" for overstepping the rules in the whole "Jesus Christ affair".

Oh, I like this. I really like it. I mean, has Satan ever taken any steps
that had nearly so great an impact? Even after a couple thousand years, he
still hasn't caught up.

>Couldn't you just see this guy in jeans and a teeshirt, carrying a stick
>[balance/scales in it's simplest form] giving each incarnation the old "be
>fair, and give both sides a listen" speech to each new office holder, over
>coffee and twinkies in some completely incongruous situation.....

You see, Balance, he's just this guy, y'know? I'd be interested to know how
new people get recruited into the job. For that matter (off on a tangent),
was it ever mentioned how, or whether, successors are found for God and
Satan? I can see it now -- "Oh my badness! You're even more evil than me!
Here, kid, take the keys. I'm retiring. And hey, the horns look good on
you."

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 16:00:49 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Mais oiu, *ALL* Anthony is trash

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>Well . . . actually many of the people on your list have written good
>stuff.  There are also Anderson, Garrett, Cherryh, deCamp, Campbell, and
>Leiber, to add just a few.
>
>Really, doesn't it come down to personal taste?  What sort of SF (and
>Fantasy) do you like?

Really ?!?
That was kind of the point I was trying to make...  Criticism of an
author's works is just find by me, but don't insult a reader merely because
his tastes run different.  I happen to enjoy reading Anthony as well as the
others on the list.  I've also read Anderson, Garrett, Cherryh, etc that
you listed above and enjoy those as well.

>Have any of the authors you like written only good works?

No, of course not.  I'm sure every author has written at least one story
they are embarrassed about.  However, to classify an author such as Anthony
as writing trash bothers me.  I've encountered authors whose books I did
not like, but instead of saying the author writes trash, I'd rather say
that the author wrote books that I didn't like.

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 19:05:52 GMT
From: yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson)
Subject: Re: hard science

I enjoy Hal Clement's books: they are all hard science.  Beware, though,
they frequently are targeted at a juvenile audience, and this shows (I
don't mind; I enjoy a good juvie book), and many were written in the
distant past (50's and 60's) and sometimes the science reflects its age.  I
always check the copyright date so I'll know how high to put my suspension
of disbelief setting.

Judy Anderson
(415)329-8400
edsel!yduJ@labrea.stanford.edu
...!sun!edsel!yduJ

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 21:12:18 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: hard science

yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson) writes:
> I enjoy Hal Clement's books: they are all hard science.  Beware, though,
> they frequently are targeted at a juvenile audience, and this shows (I
> don't mind; I enjoy a good juvie book), and many were written in the
> distant past (50's and 60's) and sometimes the science reflects its age.
> I always check the copyright date so I'll know how high to put my
> suspension of disbelief setting.

Hal's got another one out:  "Still River"  from Ballantine.

If your local library doesn't pick it up, you probably want to wait for it
in paper.  (Which doesn't mean it's bad, there's precious little that's
worth dropping $15 or $20 for a night or two of reading.)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 18:30:17 GMT
From: james@bigtex.uucp (James Van Artsdalen)
Subject: Re: hard science

Harry Stubs (aka Hal Clement) studied astronomy and chemistry in school in
the 40s if I recall correctly.  I think he works with kids a lot: he was a
teacher at the "Milton Academy" (whatever that is) and dedicated his book
"The Nitrogen Fix" to some third and fourth graders.  Definitely worth
reading: "Mission of Gravity" is still in print 35 years later...

James R. Van Artsdalen
110 Wild Basin Rd. 
Ste #230
Austin TX 78746
Home: 512-346-2444
Work: 328-0282
...!ut-sally!uastro!bigtex!james

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 01:35:50 GMT
From: dlleigh@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Hal Clement (was Re: hard science)

james@bigtex.UUCP (James Van Artsdalen) writes:
>Harry Stubs (aka Hal Clement) studied astronomy and chemistry in school in
>the 40s if I recall correctly.  I think he works with kids a lot: he was a
>teacher at the "Milton Academy" (whatever that is) and dedicated his book
>"The Nitrogen Fix" to some third and fourth graders.  Definitely worth
>reading: "Mission of Gravity" is still in print 35 years later...

If I recall correctly, Harry Stubs still teaches high school here in
Massachusetts.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 22:29:39 GMT
From: wabbit@lakesys.uucp (Tim Haas)
Subject: Re: Hal Clement (was Re: hard science)

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>If I recall correctly, Harry Stubs still teaches high school here in
>Massachusetts.

Harry Stubs retired from teaching at the end of May, 1987.  I got this
information from him at X-Con 11 in June of 1987.  He was our Guest of
Honor, and I remember him talking about the free time he would have now to
catch up on his reading, and that we (his audience at the opening
ceremonies) had better start writing so that he would have things to read!

Tim Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233
(414) 344-6988
UUCP: {...rutgers,ames,ucbvax} !uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit   
Inet: lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu
      ...uunet!marque!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 15 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Brust & Eddings &
                       Gaskell (3 msgs) & Lanier & Hard Science & 
                       Books You Shouldn't Finish & 
                       Request Answered & A New Request

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 06:01:36 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: telepathy in SF

TENNENBM@kentvm.BITNET (Iris Tennenbaum) writes:
> I've just finished reading _THE BLOODY SUN_ by Marion Zimmer Bradley (my
> first DARKOVER book) and I couldn't help noticing the similarity with
> McCaffrey's _TO RIDE PEGAUSUS_ and Henderson's _PILGRAMAGE_.  Good
> telepath's, hated by society, trying to do good deeds.......  (_TRP_ was
> good,not great _P_ was wonderful _TBS_ was very good)
> 
> question 1: Is the rest of Darkover as good as this one?  And should I
> continue?

The simplest answer is that early Darkover novels are "sense of wonder"
stories and later ones are "sense of daylight soap".  This is not to say I
wouldn't snap up a new Darkover novel the moment it came out, however as
MZB's interest in social issues seems to progress, the degree of
psychological stress her characters labor under seems to approach the point
of being ridiculous.  I suppose there are good reasons for this, however
you end up with a conflict between the initial impression of the Darkover
"universe" and the universe needed to explore the issues the she wants to
address.  I kind of wish she had moved out into the Empire so the
rationalizations and revisionism would have been a bit less obvious.

George Robbins
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 19:29:04 GMT
From: crew@polya.stanford.edu (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: telepathy in SF (Darkover)

TENNENBM@kentvm.BITNET (Iris Tennenbaum) writes:
> question 1: Is the rest of Darkover as good as this one?  And should I
> continue?

For Darkover books:

1) Check the date in the front. 

   Before 1965, MZB didn't yet know how to write (though if you like fast
   paced action-adventure with confused plots and little or no character
   development, you may like these...)

   The best ones date from the early-mid '70s (Stormqueen, Darkover
   Landfall, Heritage of Hastur, Shattered Chain, Spell Sword, Forbidden
   Tower...).

   After 1980, she got heavily into feminist issues (contest: Try to find a
   sympathetic male character in Thendara House [~1984] or City of Sorcery
   [later]...).  This is not to say that I disagree completely with her
   views, only that I don't like having them pounded in every two pages or
   so.

   There are a few exceptions (mainly cases where she took something from
   the early 60's and rewrote it: Bloody Sun, Sharra's Exile)

2) Avoid the anthologies with the Friends of Darkover.

Note that there's not supposed to be a prescribed order; she intends each
book to be self-contained.  If anything, if you need an order, read them
(i.e., the ones you actually decide to read) in the order she wrote them,
since her view of Darkover evolved a fair amount over time...

Enjoy...

Roger
crew@polya.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 16:38:44 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

>On another track... is anyone else out there as disgusted with Teckla as
>I am?

Well, as a counterpoint, I believe that Teckla is Steve's best work. It is
the first book where he really opens up and puts himself into the work
instead of just writing entertaining material. It's a very intense,
emotional book that really shows what Steve has the potential to write.

It's the difference between the storyteller and the author. Most of Steve's
stuff is good storytelling. Here, he's writing a story.

I don't think this is just me. I just checked the OtherRealms archives.
There have been five reviews of Teckla, ranging from a low of three to a
high of five (my review) with an average score of 3.6 on the five point
OtherRealms scale. Five reviews of a single title is a high number to start
with, and the overall rating is a very positive one.

>Taltos proves that Brust is still capable of great stuff (though I thought
>it should have been called Dragon).

Actually, the original title was Easterner. Ace made him change it to
something short and funny sounding to match the rest of the titles. While
Dragon is short, I doubt Ace would have agreed to it (and titles are the
domain of the publisher, not the author).

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 00:06:16 GMT
From: pyr203@psc90.uucp (Jim Vilandre)
Subject: Re: Malloreon Odds

First off, I'd like to thank everyone who responded via e-mail to inform me
of my grave error :-). I guess I shouldn't commented about misspellings
when I haven't read the second book. (BTW, I do intend to as soon as I can
afford to buy it, and if the store ever gets it. I hate it when I have to
special order...) But from what I've read, and from the agreement I've
gotten from others, I'd say there are favorable odds that Cyradis is the
Woman Who Watches, not Liselle, even though there has been more talk about
Palgara and her association with Zandramas. Question: If Zandramas is a
woman, as everyone seems to agree, then who did Errand/Eriond meet standing
beneath the trees in shadow when he (Errand/Eriond) was riding Horse to
meet Relg, as per request of Poledra. And about Poledra, does anyone have
any ideas as to what happened to her, since Errand/Eriond even said to her
that he knows she did *not* die? And who is Urgit? (also, thanks to everone
for refreshing my mind about Bethra; I'll bet X'Nedra wouldn't forget her
like I did ;-) And Prala? (or was that supposed to say Vella? Now *her* I
know :-) Sorry for all these questions; I guess I just *must* buy the next
book (and the next, and the next...) BTW, do you think it might be a little
*too* obvious that Cyradis is the subject of the last book, TSoK?

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 22:00:51 GMT
From: llkl@ur-tut
Subject: Re: Books on Atlantis

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>Here is a brief list of some novels about Atlantis, more or less.
>Jane Gaskell		The serpent
>			The Dragon
>			Atlan
>			The city
>			Some summer lands	[+]
>I haven't read all of them, but those I have read and recommend are
>annotated with [+] in the above list.  Plato, I assume, has no need
>of any recommendation from me!

I just wanted to reinforce the [+] rating given to Gaskell's series, and to
insert one title forgotten by Robert.  I simply can't recommend this series
highly enough - Gaskell's imagery is vivid and her plot, to say the least,
involved.  Granted, at times it gets to be a little weird, but I find the
strangeness a welcome change from today's formula fantasies.  If you like
wild fantasies and provocative writing, this is for you.  Rumour had it
that the whole series was being republished by Daw, but so far I've only
found the first two books on the shelves.  I found the rest in the corners
of dusty used book stores.  Good hunting, it'll be worth your time.

By the way, does anyone know where I can get Gaskell's other books?  As far
as I've seen so far, they've only been published in Britian (alas!).  Any
other Gaskell fans out there?

Laurie Kleiner  

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 14:36:30 GMT
From: john@bc-cis.uucp (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Jane Gaskell

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) mentioned the Atlan saga in response to an
inquiry on books on Atlantis, and llkl@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Laurie
Kleiner) adds:

>Rumour had it that the whole series was being republished by Daw, but so
>far I've only found the first two books on the shelves.  I found the rest
>in the corners of dusty used book stores.  Good hunting, it'll be worth
>your time.

   The Serpent          copyright 1963/first DAW printing Jan 1985
   The Dragon           copyright 1963/first DAW printing March 1985
   Atlan                copyright 1965/first DAW printing June 1985
   The City             copyright 1966/first DAW printing October 1985
   Some Summer Lands    copyright 1977/first DAW printing March 1986

It's been three years since these were last published, so you might have
some difficulty in finding them, but perhaps DAW will reissue them soon?
Meanwhile I'd simply be persistent and check out all the possibilities
including the second-hand shops.

>By the way, does anyone know where I can get Gaskell's other books?  As
>far as I've seen so far, they've only been published in Britian (alas!).
>Any other Gaskell fans out there?

   Gaskell has written other books?  If so, I've never seen them on this
side of the Atlantic!  What are the titles?

john@bc-cis

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 88 23:50:47 GMT
From: john@bc-cis.uucp (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: Jane Gaskell

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes:
>>>By the way, does anyone know where I can get Gaskell's other books?
>> 	Gaskell has written other books?  If so, I've never seen them on
>> this side of the Atlantic!  What are the titles?
>
>There is at least one - a fantasy novel written when she was quite young.
>I don't remember the title right off, but will look if I remember it when
>I get home.  Pretty sure it was a US paperback, but not new.

   I think you're referring to _King's Daughter_ (copyright 1958, my
edition is a 1979 paperback so unless you luck out at a used book store...
I'd forgotten I had it.)  There's a reference inside to something called
_Strange Evil_ (of which I know nothing).

john@bc-cis

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 15:40:48 GMT
From: bing@mcnc.org (Carter E. Bing)
Subject: Sterling Lanier

   I started reading the series by Sterling Lanier concerning the adventures
of Per Hiero Desteen about four years ago and I was wondering if there is a
third book to (what i assumed was a trilogy) this set.
   Is Lanier still well and writing. I really enjoyed the first two books
and I would like to find out if there is a conclusion to this tale.
   Thanks for your help,

Carter
bing@mcnc.org

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 19:55:54 GMT
From: cjh@petsd.uucp (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: hard science

jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu.UUCP (James W. Meritt) writes:
>Anybody got good recommendations for "hard science" science fiction?  I
>enjoy Niven and Forward, but haven't run into nearly enough stuff to keep
>up with my reading.

Hal Clement is Mister Hardstuff.  With the implied limitation - not much
characterization.

Poul Anderson's space operas usually have some hard science background.  He
is good at thinking up interestingly weird planets and species.

Vernor Vinge is a mathematician, and the fact shows, though unobtrusively,
in _The_Witling_.  See also his more recent "Real Time" novels.

Arthur C. Clarke used to write "hard science sf" - maybe it'll seem dated
today.  He also wrote "visionary" sf - The City and the Stars.

Christopher J. Henrich
MS 313
Concurrent Computer Corporation
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
...!rutgers!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 03:13:02 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

When books get that bad, you're just wasting your time.
Here is a list of other books that you shouldn't finish:

To Sail Beyond the Sunset by Robert Heinlein -- Were you disappointed after
the first couple of chapters?  You'll feel worse when/if you get to the
end.  Why do I always feel cheated by Heinlein's post-brain surgery
writings?  (maybe Job is an exception, but then again, maybe not).

Songs of Distant Earth by Arthur C. Clarke -- Yawn.  What a boring book.
Go ahead and finish this one if you can stay awake.  You won't feel any
worse for finishing but you might spend a lot on caffeine.

Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard -- Don't believe for a minute that
people will consider you a hero for dragging your way through this
monstrosity.  I know the book is thick and it looks like you're getting a
bargain down at Walden books; but think twice before you make the attempt.
Maybe somebody will put out a condensed version so the curious can get a
taste of the old pulp style without wasting months on the trash.

Fantastic Voyage II by Isaac Asimov -- DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT read this
under any circumstances!  How many synonyms for "puke" can I think of to
describe this book?  If you have any respect for the good doctor and don't
wish to think poorly of him in his senility, just veer away from this at
the book store.  Asimov was never very good at character development, but
the characters in this book don't even make believable human beings.  Oh,
by the way, if the phrase "What do you think this is, the twentieth
century?" bothers you in the first part of the book, it will keep being
obnoxious all the way to the end.

No, I'm not just whining.  I do actually like good science fiction.  It's
just that all the major authors are no longer competent to write the stuff.
I have enjoyed some of the stuff I read and will make recommendations:

Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card -- There was so
much to really like and dislike about Ender's Game that I can't do it
justice.  There are some things about the plot that bother me, but the
characterization is really good.  Speaker for the Dead also has good
characterization and is an enjoyable read, though not as good as Ender's
Game.  I haven't read any of Card's fantasy yet.

William Gibson -- What can I say?  I really don't like cyberpunk, but
Neuromancer and Count Zero were quite readable.  What I really liked was
the collection of short stories in Burning Chrome (which is also the name
of one of the stories).  There is some really top notch stuff in there.

Joe Haldeman -- Anything by Haldeman is worth reading.  Especially good is
a book of short stories called Dealing in Futures which has commentary
interspersed with the stories.  Worlds, and Worlds Apart are his most
recent books, and while not as good as some of his other stuff, they are
still enjoyable.  Apparently he's still thinking about the third in the
series which will be called Worlds Enough in Time (or something like that).
Doesn't Haldeman have a movie coming out sometime this year?

David Brin -- I read Startide Rising.  It was pretty good, but I thought it
dragged on too long.  I haven't had a chance at The Uplift War yet.

Verner Vinge -- I enjoyed The Peace War and Marooned in Real Time.  Not the
stuff of which classics are made, but enjoyable to read.

John Varley -- The Titan/Wizard/Demon trilogy is excellent.  We get
exciting plots, some good character development and nice endings.  A must
for everyone's reading list.  The problem is, now I have to mention
Millenium.  Bleah!  It's bad.  He doesn't even handle the time travel
aspect very well.  I'm afraid I just couldn't suspend my disbelief long
enough to get into this one.  I really hated the (literal) deus ex machina
ending.

That's it for tonight folks.  If you want to flame me, remember that you
didn't have to read this in the first place (there was an n-key handy).

Darren Leigh
362 Memorial Dr.
Cambridge, MA 02139
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
mit-amt!dlleigh

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 03:21:07 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.uucp
Subject: Re: Looking for a book

VAXCNET%AESD.DECnet@GE-CRD.ARPA writes:
> Years ago (20) I read a book called _Jesus Christs_ (if sacreligious
> things bother you don't read any further).
>
> The theme is that God sends Christ back a number of times to do it right
> (or to parallel worlds?) There are a number of short stories in the book
> (some only a couple of pages). I really enjoyed it but couldn't save it
> as I was in the navy at the time (IE no room in my duffle bag). Has
> anyone seen it ? Author ? Obviously out of print.

JESUS CHRISTS by A. J. Langguth, published by Ballantine Books in April
1969 (it was apparently published in hardcover by Harper & Row in 1968).
It's described on the cover as a novel rather than a collection of short
stories.  The closest thing to an ISBN I can find is 0-345-01584.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP:	mtune!mtgzy!ecl or ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA:	ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 23:32:18 GMT
From: botteron@bu-cs.bu.edu (Carol J. Botteron)
Subject: Book about alien life forms?

Is there a book or available article that describes a variety of aliens
such as Moties, Overlords, sandworms, etc.?

I'm not necessarily interested in any particular ones, but more in the
range of characteristics, so a suggestion of a serious book about what life
forms (especially intelligent ones) would be likely to develop under
certain conditions would be welcome.

Please reply by mail; I'll summarize if there is interest.  TIA!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 15 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Moorcock (4 msgs) & Steakley (2 msgs) &
                      Tiptree (2 msgs) & Atlantis Stories

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 09:32:47 GMT
From: ASTPMTPA@uiamvs.bitnet
Subject: Moorcock

Moorcock's timeline is definitely NOT linear.

The multiverse is made up of an infinite number of 'universes', each with
its own timeline.  The timelines aren't even constant relative each other.
In addition, all the timelines are cyclic anyway, so anything is possible.

Corum did indeed destroy Arioch, which is rather humourous since he is the
only major god from either side to survive to the end of time in Elric's
timeline.  In case you haven't figured it out yet, our friend Lord Jagged
is Arioch.  Of course, the millenia have mellowed him quite a bit.
Incidentaly, unless my memory fails me, it was Lord Jagged who went back to
retrieve Mrs. Underwood, Jherek not having the power to do such a thing.

***Spoiler****

The reason Lord Jagged did such, was that he knew the end of time was
approching, and since Jherek was the only only being left in existence who
was conceived (by Jagged and Iron Orchid) rather than created, he wanted to
give him a companion with which to start over in the new cycle.

A listing of the eternal champion books:
The Eternal Champion
Phoenix in Obsidian  (aka The Silver Warrior)
The Dragon In the Sword
Elric:
   Elric Of Melnibone
   The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
   The Weird of the White Wolf
   The Vanishing Tower
   The Bane of the Black Sword
   Stormbringer
   Elric at the End of Time
Hawkmoon:
   The Jewel in the Skull
   The Mad God's Amulet
   The Sword of the Dawn
   The Runestaff
Corum:
   The King of the Swords
   The Queen of the Swords
   The King of the Swords
   The Bull and the Spear
   The Oak and the Ram
   The Sword and the Stallion
Michael Kane:
   City of the Beast
   Lord of the Spiders
   Masters of the Pit
Castle Brass:
   Count Brass
   The Champion of Garathorm
   The Quest for Tanelorn
Jerry Cornelius:
   The Final Programme
   A Cure for Cancer
   The English Assassin
   The Condition of Musak
   The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius
   The Entropy Tango
   The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th
      Century 
Oswald Bastable:
   The Warlord of the Air
   The Land Leviathan
   The Steel Tsar
Dancers at the End of Time:
   An Alien Heat
   The Hollow Lands
   The End of all Songs
   Legends From the End of Time
 The Fireclown:
   The Winds of Limbo
   A Messiah at the End of Time  (The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming)
Karl Glogauer:
   Breakfast in the Ruins
   Behold the Man

 The 49 year old Moorcock has written over a score of books in addition to
these.  He has also written lyrics for three Blue Oyster Cult songs, and
has written songs for and performed with the group Hawkwind.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 88 23:19:18 GMT
From: see1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: more Moorcock for MikeJ

{Here's more from my SO on Moorcock.}

Mike, here's some of the stuff you wanted about MM's SF-type Champions:

Clovis Marca is from _The Shores of Death_ (aka _The Twilight Man_) 

Jerry Cornell appears in _The Chinese Agent_ & _The Russian Intelligence_
(_TCA_ first appeared as "Somewhere in the Night" under MM's pen name Bill
Barcley)

Prof. Faustaff is from _The Rituals of Infinity_ (out of print but occurs
in a DAW edition; aka _The Wrecks of Time_; this is a great book and the
first MM I ever read)

Ryan appears in a fun little book about a modern society *worse* than our
own called _The Black Corridor_ [only one title for this one :-)]

Asquiol appears in _The Blood Red Game_ (aka _The Sundered Worlds_)--this
book is notable because it is here MM first coined the term "multiverse"
for which SF and fantasy is eternally (no pun) grateful!

Sojan was MM's first attempt (at age 15!) to create a S&S hero; Sojan
stories appear in _Elric at the End of Time_ and _Sojan_

Alan Powys appears in _The Fireclown_ (aka _The Winds of Limbo_)

Karl Glogauer is the hero of _Behold the Man_ (the short story version won
MM his only Nebula) and _Breakfast in the Ruins_; he also appears with Una
Persson and Oswald Bastable in _The End of All Songs_

Simon of Byzantium is in the short story "The Greater Conqueror," which
appears in the collections _The Singing Citadel_ and _Moorcock's Book of
Martyrs_ (aka _Dying For Tomorrow_)

Most of these guys appear briefly or are mentioned in other books far too
numerous to mention here :-).

As for the Graf Ulrich von Bek and Manfred von Bek, they appear,
respectively, in _War Hound_ and _The City in the Autumn Stars_ (the latter
has recently been published in the U.S. by Ace Hardcovers).  These two
books are easily some of MM's best writing and I recommend them even to
die-hard Moorcock haters [I should know, I used _War Hound_ to "convert"
one of them to a more enlightened perspective...:-)]

{he's referring to me -- EKS :-)}

>Have him reread _Quest for Tanelorn_.  The child explained that the
>runestaff and the black sword are really different parts of the same
>thing.

I don't have my copy of _The Quest for Tanelorn_ in front of me, but I seem
to recall the child saying that the Black Sword and the Runestaff were made
by the same people at the same time but for different purposes: the former
served Chaos (at least as much as it could) and the latter served the
Balance.

>I remember Jhary-a-Conel refered to as Timeras by what's her name, that
>god in Corum's second book.  What book is this from?

Rackhir meets Timeras in the short story "To Rescue Tanelorn" in the fifth
Elric book (also in _The Singing Citadel_).  Jhary keeps getting called
Timeras by plane-travellers throughout the Corum books, much to his
annoyance.

After rereading parts of _The Dragon in the Sword_, I'm inclined to agree
with you about the Princess Sharadim's being a "lover."  I emphasized *no*
lover because I found it amusing that in *this* book the Champion remains
alone while the Companion gets the girl :-).

One last thing, I noticed after completing my response that you put Una
Persson down as Oswald's lover.  Although she is associated with him for
three books, they never seem to have a romantic or sexual relationship
[probably a first for Una :-)], possibly because she does not want to
confuse him more than he already is (he *is* from 1904!) Perhaps she is his
companion, or perhaps that changes from book to book....

Anyway, it's been fun talking about this stuff again (most of the people I
know who've read MM won't let me mention him these days for fear that I'll
go on for hours!  :-))

Cliff Winnig
{Replies to me will be forwarded to Cliff -- EKS.}

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
University of Chicago Computation Center
staff.ellen@chip.uchicago.edu
...{ihnp4!gargoyle, oddjob}!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 21:56:58 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: more Moorcock for MikeJ

mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Mike J) writes:
>see1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher) writes:
>> I don't have my copy of _The Quest for Tanelorn_ in front of me,
>> Runestaff were made by the same people at the same time but for
>> different purposes: the former served Chaos (at least as much as it
>> could) and the latter served the Balance.
>
>I'll have to re-read it as well, just to make sure.

I just read it.  The kid goes on the say that the makers of the Sword and
Staff (and other artifacts) didn't realize that the spirits that were to
animate Sword and Staff were part of the same thing.  Hence (*spoiler
alert*)

when the Sword enters the Jewel it gains control, and Jehamia Conhalius
(the Staff) is subsumed (and Hawkmoon is horrified.) When Erekose and the
Sword destroy the balance, the Sword tries to enter the body of the Staff.
See, all the same beastie underneath.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 10:32:53 GMT
From: cwp@otter.hple.hp.com (Chris Preist)
Subject: Moorcock's hacking.

I noticed an earlier posting regarding Moorcock's Hack work (i.e. Most of
his Sword and Sorcery stuff), and I thought you may be interested to know
why he turned out some of his poorer works, sacrificing his 'Artistic
Integrity' etc etc.

In the 60's, when he was Editor of New Worlds, the funding of the magazine
was in a rather dodgy situation. As a result, MM would sit down for a few
days, churn out another fantasy trilogy to get a bit of money in, both for
him and the magazine, and get back to the serious stuff. I believe the
entire Erekose stuff was written at a rate of 15000 words a day (i.e. a
book every three days) non stop, and Corum clocks up a similar rate too.

Considering this, we shouldn't be asking why Moorcock wrote such bad stuff
when he obviously is capable of much more, but rather how he made it so
GOOD in the given timespace!

And remember, if he hadn't financed New Worlds in this way, and stuck to
'serious' writing, we would probably be without Ballard, Aldiss and Spinrad
now.

How's that for artistic integrity and dedication?

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 05:02:00 GMT
From: V087P945@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Great Sci-Fi

Greetings people,

   Just like to say hi...by the way, have any of you read the sci-fi novel
called ARMOR by John Steakley?  I consider it to be the best s-f that I
have ever read.  What do you think about it?  Do you know if there will be
a sequel?.. :-)
 

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 14:54:00 GMT
From: peter@prism.tmc.com
Subject: Re: Great Sci-Fi

V087P945@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu writes:
>Just like to say hi...by the way, have any of you read the sci-fi novel
>called ARMOR by John Steakley?  

Correct me if I am wrong, but is that the one where there are two main
protagonists; Felix a mysterious and troubled starship trooper fighting an
endless war against an implacable insectoid enemy; and another guy, whose
name I can't remember, who is a famous and notorious Robin Hood like
galactic rascal?

Well, if it is, I have to say I liked it. It did require one to follow two
to three plot and time lines, and it also was a little uneven at times.
However, I didn't mind. The characters did come across as hard boiled, but
with a heart of gold. I guess inside each cynic there is a romantic waiting
to break out.

This way of portraying the protagonists, along with the authors
descriptions of an infernal war, did manage to hold my attention. The
emotional 'flavor' of the book is similar to William Gibson's _Count Zero_,
where again you have a hardened anti-hero whom you follow through a maze
like plot to the end where he 're-humanizes' himself.

I'd be curious if there is a sequel to _Armor_, for Felix is literally left
hanging not from a cliff but on to a spaceship.....

Peter J. Stucki
Mirror Systems
2067 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA, 02140
617-661-0777 extension 131
peter@mirror.TMC.COM	
{mit-eddie,ihnp4,harvard!wjh12,cca,cbosg,seismo}!mirror!peter

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 08:12:08 GMT
From: illuminatus@bavaria.uucp
Subject: Tiptree/Sheldon revealed as hoax

The net is harder to hoax it seems.  No hoax this year attained the stature
of the "kremvax" hoax, the original "Tiptree is a man" hoax from 1.5 years
ago and other great April Fool's jokes of the past.

Included in this years hoaxes was a newswire article detailing a hoax about
a hoax.  That James Tiptree Jr. was a real man who had pretended to be a
woman pretending to be a man named James Tiptree, Jr.

I know the wire story is fake because I wrote it.  What it was, instead,
was a hoax about a hoax about a hoax, and even on that level it only had
moderate success.  The story was full of clues about its falsehood, most
notably the direct mention of April Fool's day in the text.

But a lot of people believed that the story actually appeared in newspapers
around the world.  It didn't.  And those who posted followups and started
investigations were the real April Fools caught by the trick.

Instead, to strike paranoia into the hearts of the net.paranoids, the story
was simultaneously confirmed by several partners in April Fool's Day
antics.  Two of the postings were made from nonexistent sites.  One of them
was "loof!lirpa", which you can all spell backwards.  All postings were
made on April 1.

Two postings came from real people.  Those real people were
weemba@garnet.Berkeley.edu, perhaps the net's most well known trouble
maker, and brad@looking.uucp, the moderator of the net's humor group.  If
these two guys posted articles on April 1 saying that the Earth was round,
I would check membership dues in the Flat Earth society.  But several of
you didn't check and got caught.

For those of you who got caught, APRIL FOOL!

For the rest, I'm revealing this and apologizing because it has been
disclosed to me that some people showed the text to friends of Alice
Sheldon, and it upset them deeply.  Why this was done, I'm unsure.  Because
these people now hate me, this posting is anonymous.

The sad circumstances of her death have nothing to do with the hoax, and no
fun was being made of Sheldon or her writing.  Fun was made of net people,
and net people's conception of gender roles.  If the thought that "Tiptree
was a man" upset you, check your own concepts of whether the gender of an
author has anything to do with the quality of the writing.

So good luck, and keep your wits about you next April 1, and think before
you post a reply to anything said on that date.  Or any other, for that
matter.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 22:30:41 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut (Dave )
Subject: Re: help on Tiptree, here

fleishman-glenn@CS.YALE.EDU (Glenn Fleishman) writes:
>Forgive a newcomer to this group, but I have a few questions after
>reviewing the circumstances of the whole Sheldon/Tiptree 4/1 hoax.
>
>As a long-time reader of Alice Sheldon/James Tiptree, jr., I was deeply
>grieved this morning as I read the net to discover that she had died
>several months ago. Her work is some of the best science fiction and
>fiction I have read. Unfortunately, I didn't note her passing at the time.
>
>My questions/requests:
>1. Would someone please send me a little information as about her death?
>The spurious facts floating around this net I would rather not believe.

   The facts are:

   a. Alice Sheldon, who wrote science fiction for several years under the
pseudonym of James Tiptree, Jr. (presumably because in the '50s when she
started, female S.F. writers were frowned upon), and won several awards,
died in May of 1987.

   b. She and her husband, who was suffering many of the worst vagaries of
old age, presumably made a mutual suicide/euthanasia pact, and the
assumption is that she was in a deep depression from seeing her husband's
condition deteriorate in front of her for so many years.

   c. She was NEVER a front for anyone, she wrote all of her own stories,
and won her own awards.

   d. Her last story, one of two sent to _Fantasy and Science Fiction_
magazine at the same time, was entitled "In Midst of Life."  The ending
line was something to the effect that "in midst of death, he was alive."
This sparks some speculation as to whether the title was a kind of suicide
note, saying "in midst of life, I am dead."  It was a wonderful story.

   e. The other story, a major novella, is available in the May issue of
_Fantasy and Science Fiction_.  It too is wonderful.  It will also, barring
unknown stories, be the last release of a Tiptree story.

   These are the facts and reasonable speculations as I know them.  All
statements presented in this as true are from the _Magazine of Fantasy and
Science Fiction_.  Speculations are my own.  I am, and was, very dismayed
at the tragic death of one of my favorite short fiction writers, and did
not consider the hoax as worthy of any reply, much less the attention it
received.  Shame on you, Illuminatus. :-|

   I hope this helps to clarify.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 23:49:39 GMT
From: OK2@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: WANTED: Atlantis novels

   This probably doesn't qualify as an 'atlantis novel' but I just came
across it again, so I thought I'd toss it in....

   _Treaty In Tartessos_ by Karen Anderson (from the anthology _The Unicorn
Trade_, by Poul and Karen Anderson) is a short about the negotiations
between two commanders of opposing armies -- the centaurs and the men -- as
they try to come up with a solution to their problems that will allow both
races to live in peace.  The cause of the conflict is much the same as the
cause of an early tragedy here in America.  Land.  The centaurs have a
roving lifestyle that conflicts with the settlers who wish to farm and
expand, much like the conflict between the early 'american' settlers and
the native Americans.

   Luckily for the people in the story, the conflict is settled a bit more
peaceably.  The centaurs ask for, and are given, possession of the newly
discovered continent.  Reluctantly, Kynthides, commander of the human army,
acquiesces to the demands of Iratzabal, commander of the centaurs.

   "All right, Iratzabal, you can _have_ Atlantis."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 18 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:

      Books - Dragons (11 msgs) & Letters of Kelvin Throop (2 msgs) &
              Telepathy in SF (2 msgs) & Atlantis & 
              Author Recommendations & Hard Science

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 16:29:20 GMT
From: c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu (Margaret S Pai)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

Well, here's one I haven't seen mentioned (not unlikely, since it's pretty
obscure): _The Unlikely Ones_ by Mary Brown (great name recognition,
there).  It not only has a friendly dragon, but also a unicorn, a toad,
fish, crow, cat, Knight and Thing.  Not to mention a nasty witch or two and
your average muddle-headed friendly wizard.  Oh, and the requisite Quest.
Anyway, back to the dragon.  I don't know if he's exactly friendly, since
in the story he's put in a position wherein he'd have to be grateful and
friendly or be accused of being, well, a dragon.  But I figure, if he
didn't fry our heroes before they could tell him why they were there, he's
at least tolerent....

Oh, and while I'm at it, I know you asked for books, but my favorite dragon
story (whose name and author I can't remember---arrgh!  Must be getting
old) appeared in Marion Zimmer Bradley's _Sword and Sorceress II_.  It
involved a dragon that, while man-eating, was certainly willing to listen
to reason.  Answers the question: Why do dragons like to eat skinny
sacrificial virgins?  Answer: They don't.  Fat priests are much more
tasty.....

Margaret Pai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Apr 88 08:57:33 CST
From: steve@ncsc.arpa (Mahan)
Subject: Friendly dragons

    Diane Duane's book 'The Door Into Shadow' features a sympathetic,
intelligent dragon as a main character.  The book is the second in a four
volume series.  First volume is 'The Door Into Fire'.  Third and fourth
volumes not yet published.  Highly recommended.

Stephen Mahan
steve@ncsc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 20:54:00 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

SMITH@dickinsn.BITNET (Smith, Stephen) writes:
>Christopher Stasheff (yes, going back to him again) has (a) friendly
>dragon(s) in _Her Majesty's Wizard_, published by (I think) Ace. Stegoman
>is his name and while he gets drunk when he breathes fire, this gets
>eventually cured.

I just arrived on this discussion after a long absence, and I don't have
the previous articles. Forgive me if I'm repeating information.

   Ellegon, in Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series
   Stanley Steamer, the once and future Gap Dragon, in later installments
       of Piers Anthony's "Xanth" series
   Paladine, alias Fizban the Fabulous, in Weiss and Hickman's
       "Dragonlance" series
   Numerous Dragons in the "Dragons of Light" anthology, edited by
       someone I can't remember.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 11:10:26 GMT
From: wlinden@dasys1.uucp (William Linden)
Subject: Friendly dragons


A juvenile series about R. Dragon and his friend Susan includes DRAGON IN
DANGER and THE DRAGON'S QUEST among others. (R. stands for his True Name,
which is only revealed to those who can be trusted with the power over
him.)
   And its appearance is rather minor, but there is the dragon in Simak's
GOBLIN RESERVATION.

Will Linden
...!{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 00:58:30 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Friendly Dragons

Moonbird from Changling and Madwand, Various ones in Roadmarks.  All three
by Roger Zelazny.

Someone mentioned Moorcock's dragons in the Elric series.

There are non-evil (though occasionally allied with bad guys,) dragons in
Glen Cook's Dread Empire books and short stories.

Numerous Chinese and Japanese folktales.

The George Business" again, Roger Zelazny.

Stephen Brust's "To Reign in Hell" has a non-evil Dragon that does his best
to help his friends.

The dragons in Niven's Warlock stories are not always evil.

"Tea with the Black Dragon" and "Twisting the Rope" both seem to qualify
(McAvoy).

Does "The Dragon Lensman" qualify?

There are a number of them in comics, as someone has observed.
	
   If I was at home with my collection I could point out more, but those
are the ones that come to mind off of the top of my head.

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET  

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 19:57:49 GMT
From: mok@pawl5.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Friendly Dragons

As long as we're on the subject of friendly dragons...

   What about Dragonbane by Barbara Hambly? Ok... so it doesn't start out
that way, but you've got to admit by the end they are *certainly* on (ahem)
excellent terms.

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 18:41:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.uucp (Lawrence C. Smith)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

Nobody has mentioned Quox, the dragon that transported Ozma and her army
back to Oz in the third Oz book (Road To Oz? - I think so.  The plot
required Ozma and Dorothy to save the Royal family of Ev from the clutches
of the Evil Nome (sic) King.  Ozma of Oz (the sequel to Wizard) was
combined with this novel to create the screenplay for Return To Oz
(Disney)).  Quox did not fly, but he was indisputably a dragon (and
described as such).  I don't remember whether he ever torched anything - he
helped save the day in the novel by carrying eggs into the Nome (sic)
King's throne room.  Nomes find eggs poisonous.

Quox also has bit parts in several other Oz books, and a cameo in another
Oz book not written by Baum (The Red Wagon of Oz, if memory serves me).

Larry Smith
lsmith

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 15:11:47 GMT
From: sutherla@hwee.uucp (I. Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

   On the subject of friendly dragons what about Dart in the last story of
Roger Zelazny's _Unicorn Variations_ collection.
   In this short story a dragon and a knight get on well together.

Iain A. Sutherland
sutherla@ee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 23:09:09 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) writes:
>To further the research I am doing, I need all the sf/fantasy novels that
>have dragons as main or supporting characters AND those dragons fall into
>the benevolent/kind/nice/friendly/pet category.  That is, DRAGONRIDERS OF
>PERN qualifies, but DRAGONSLAYER and DRAGON'S BANE types would not.

**WARNING** funny bone alert!

If you can take funny as well, there's always Gleep in the MYTH ADVENTURES
series (Asprin)... also a spoof of DRAGONRIDERS OF PERN in THE COLOUR OF
MAGIC (Pratchett).  Also THE DRAGON AND THE GEORGE (Dickson).  Another
humorous story is the short "Papa Schimmelhorn's Yang" (memory's playing
fadeout, I don't remember the author -- okay, so I'm not Jayembee ;-).

If nothing else, you now have something to do when you need a rest from
your research.  ;-)

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!hnsurg3,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 04:18:11 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)
Subject: Re: Friendly Dragons

If you can take anything based on Dungeon&Dragons, the first three books of
the _Dragon-Lance Chronicles_ has a few on both sides of the coin, good and
bad. They even go so far as to portray the dragons with human
characteristics, such as an evil Red Dragon who was going senile and tried
to protect some human children because she was having recollections of her
own children from centries before, etc.

Hope it helps

Erik Gorka
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 23:46:41 GMT
From: MILLERA@grin1.bitnet ("Mice have no shoulders. ", Miller,Alan J)
Subject: Atlantis and Friendly Dragons

  For Dragons, try a book called _Where_Dragons_Rule_.  This has them on
both sides.  Also, there are some neutral/friendly dragons in the Riftwar
books.  These are by Raymond Feist, and are in paperback as
_Magician:Apprentice_, _Magician:Master_, _Silverthorn_, and
_A_Darkness_At_Sethanon_.  If you are lucky, your library might have the
first two combined in a larger book called simply _Magician_.

Alan J Miller
BitNet: Millera @ Grin1

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 02:41:08 GMT
From: john@titan.nmt.edu (John Shipman)
Subject: Request for "Letters of Kelvin Throop"

Sometime in the sixties in _Analog_ there was a feature called (I think)
"Letters from Kelvin Throop," consisting of some business letters written
with utter disregard for taste, politeness, etc.--- Mr. Throop just told it
like it was.  I thought it was some of the funniest writing I'd ever seen.
I forget the author's name, but it wasn't Kelvin Throop.

Can anyone tell me the issue or issues where these letters appeared?  I
think there were two occurrences separated by at least a few issues.  I'd
be especially grateful if anyone could send me photocopies.  The most
probable range of dates is 1962-1966, possibly earlier.

John Shipman
Zoological Data Processing
Socorro, New Mexico
USENET: ihnp4!lanl!unm-la!unmvax!nmtsun!john
CSNET: john@jupiter.nmt.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 22:56:49 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Request for "Letters of Kelvin Throop"

john@titan.nmt.edu (John Shipman) writes:
> Sometime in the sixties in _Analog_ there was a feature called (I think)
> "Letters from Kelvin Throop," consisting of some business letters written
> with utter disregard for taste, politeness, etc.--- Mr. Throop just told
> it like it was.  I thought it was some of the funniest writing I'd ever
> seen.

There have been further missives from Mr. Throop, still telling it like it
is, more recently...

> I forget the author's name, but it wasn't Kelvin Throop.

...the current (May) issue of Analog has a story by Roland Shew called
"Throop's Revenge".  I don't know if he originated the character, but the
story fits just fine.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 22:02:10 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: telepathy in SF

TENNENBM@kentvm.BITNET (Iris Tennenbaum):
>I've just finished reading _THE BLOODY SUN_ by Marion Zimmer Bradley (my
>first DARKOVER book) and I couldn't help noticing the similarity with
>McCaffrey's _TO RIDE PEGAUSUS_ and Henderson's _PILGRAMAGE_.  Good
>telepath's, hated by society, trying to do good deeds.......

Not the characterization I would have chosen.  Henderson's People aren't
known to society, though individuals who found out about them acted
violently.  The Comyn are not hated by society, though certain of them are
- -- more in the newer version of The Bloody Sun, which I presume is the one
you read, than in the old one.  The Comyn, as a group, are also not in the
good deeds business.

>question 1: Is the rest of Darkover as good as this one?  And should I
>continue?

It's about average.  It's an uneven series.  Read a scattering.  For
something of a survey, try "The Sword of Aldones", "Darkover Landfall",
"Stormqueen" and "The Shattered Chain".  If you like these, read the others
in pretty much any order and you'll know more or less what's going on.

>question 2: Are there more of these types of books that I have bypassed
>all these years?

As I said, it's not that clear that the books you mention constitute a
class.  Let me suggest:

a) Zenna Henderson's other "People" collection, "The People, No Different
Flesh" and her two other (mostly non-People) anthologies "Holding Wonder"
and "The Anything" box.

b) Kurtz's "Deryni" books.  Start where most of us started, with "Deryni
Rising".

c) For a much different [older] look at similar themes you might want to
read "Slan" by A.E. Van Vogt.

Good Reading.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 09:13:54 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.uucp (Tasslehoff)
Subject: Re: telepathy in SF

TENNENBM@kentvm.BITNET writes:
>Good telepath's, hated by society, trying to do good deeds.......
>
>question 2: Are there more of these types of books that I have bypassed
>all these years? ( I just read Pilgramage recently, just finished _TBS_

Well, you happened to pick on a favorite subject of many people.  Mine
included.  Telepathy. Psychokinesis. Teleportation (even Alfred
Bester-style).  Healing. Pyrokinesis.  There are lots of books out there
with them.  As for books where these people are hated/shunned, you should
read the series by Julian May called "The Many-Colored Land".  The series
is not so much hate of these powers, but rather the uses and abuses of
them.  The book "Intervention" that preceeds/follows the series (difficult
to explain. The author calls the book a "viniculum", I think...) deals
almost totally with the emergence of these powers in mankind and how people
deal with them from the perspectives of having AND not-having powers.  A
very, VERY good read.

Now, if only she'd get her long-awaited trilogy out...(Anyone heard
anything 'bout that?  Chuq, Eric, anyone!)

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.calpoly.edu
...{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 23:46:41 GMT
From: MILLERA@grin1.bitnet (Miller,Alan J)
Subject: Atlantis and Friendly Dragons

  For Atlantis, there is a book that I have at home that I've never read
entitled _Mention_My_Name_In_Atlantis_.  Since I haven't read it I can't
guarantee how much is acually based in Atlantis.  The copy I have was
probably published in the mid-70's, and was, I believe, by a fairly obscure
author.  Another set of books is the Atlan Saga, a relatively recent set.
Someone else can probably tell you the author and titles.

Alan J Miller
BitNet: Millera @ Grin1

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 02:50:18 GMT
From: jac@paul.rutgers.edu (Jonathan A. Chandross)
Subject: And the saga continueth.

runyan@hpirs.HP.COM (Mark Runyan) 

>For an author who has an "inability to craft a story", Anthony is doing
>fairly well.  Of course, that is probably due to the fact that some of
>have the mentality of a "twelve year old", and so buy those books.

Isaac Asimov does fairly well.  And so did Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart,
Father Divine, and others.  Are you familiar with P. T. Barnum?

   "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the
    average American."

   "There's a sucker born every minute -- and two to take him."

Incidentally, your list contains two authors of Anthony's caliber: Asprin
and Asimov.  I have nothing against reading pap - I do it myself.  But I
have never claimed that it is anything other than drivel.  I objected to
the inflated claims about the quality of Anthony's work.  Read all the
Asimov or Anthony you want.  But don't call it "social commentary" or
explain about how it deals with important anthropological issues.

I realize your request for authors was rhetorical and sarcastic, but why
not check out:

   Author                       Recommended Work

   Jorge Luis Borges    Anything.  It's all magnificent.
   Thomas Pynchon       _The Crying of Lot 49_   
   Edgar Alan Poe       "MS found in a Bottle" and others.
   Jules Verne          _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_
                        _The Mysterious Island_
                        _Journey to the Center of the Earth_
                        _From the Earth to the Moon_
   Joseph Conrad        _Heart of Darkness_
   H. G. Wells          _Food of the Gods_ 
                        _The First Men in the Moon_
                        _The Time Machine_
   H. P. Lovecraft      _Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath_
   Ambrose Bierce       "Maxon's Master", 
                        "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge"
   Neville Shute (sp)   _On the Beach_
        
You might be pleasantly surprised.  

Jonathan A. Chandross
ARPA: jac@paul.rutgers.edu
UUCP: rutgers!jac@paul.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 13:48:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: hard science

  Another author of 'hard' science fiction that you might enjoy is James P.
Hogan.  His book _Code of the LifeMaker_ is both good science fiction and
wonderful social commentary.  That is the only one of his works that I have
read, but others I have heard of include _Inherit the Stars_ and _The
Gentle Giants of Ganyemede_ (part of a series, I think).  He handles the
technical/scientific aspects of science-fiction well, and understands
people well enough to create interesting, believable characters.  I would
strongly recommend _Code of the LifeMaker_.

Peter Webb
{allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb
{mit-eddie|raybed2|spar|ulowell|sun}!applicon!webb
webb@applicon.com

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 18 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Heinlein & Herbert (8 msgs) &
                           Kurtz (2 msgs) & Lanier &
                           Humans vs. the galaxy

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 18:07:07 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Robert Heinlein

For people who are interested, I've gotten confirmation of the Balticon
report on Robert Heinlein. What I've found out is that he's had at least
one mild heart attack, and between that an emphysema (please, folks, DON'T
SMOKE) is now on oxygen full time.

That's the bad news. The good news is that he's home, he's in good spirits,
he's still writing, and generally handling things well.

If you're a Heinlein fan, now would be a great time to drop him a letter or
card and tell him so. He and his wife would both appreciate it (although
they aren't in a position to answer as many as they used to). I've agreed
to act as a collection point for them, and you're welcome to mail to him
through OtherRealms.

To send a card or letter, mail it to:

   Robert A. Heinlein, C/O
   OtherRealms
   35111-F Newark Blvd. 
   Suite 255
   Newark, CA, 94560

(Feel free to pass this note along to your favorite fanzine editor, too.
Let's see if we can't make the life of someone who's done so much for the
field a little better)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 16:43:52 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Dune Paradox

   I'm nearly finished with _Chapterhouse: Dune_, and an apparent paradox
has been nagging at me. The old Spacers Guild navigators were dependent on
spice essence in order to "fold space" and reach their destinations,
correct? However, the planets in Herbert's universe seem to be so widely
separated that they can't be reached without folding space. So Arrakis
(Dune) couldn't have been discovered without Guild navigators. But before
Arrakis was discovered, there was no spice, and hence no navigators. Is
this a paradox? Or was there a device, similar to the Ixian navigating
devices, that was used prior to the Butlerian Jihad, and the navigators
arose only after the Jihad? Was it ever stated, or do we have to assume?

   While I'm at it, how the heck would they discover the ability to fold
space due to spice essence? I can see it now: "Hey, Joey, why don't we put
you in a tank full of this melange gas, let you mutate for a few centuries,
and see what happens?" I know, given enough time, they probably tried most
everything possible with melange, but it seems a pretty unlikely discovery.

   Lastly, does anyone have any sort of chronology for the events in the
Dune series? According to the movie, Paul Atreides became the Kwisatz
Haderach in 10,551 A.D., but I've never seen any date mentioned in the
books. I think God-Emperor is a few centuries later (this was stated, but
I've forgotten), and Heretics and Chapterhouse are 4 to 6 millennia down
the road.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 01:14:13 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>   I'm nearly finished with _Chapterhouse: Dune_, and an apparent paradox
>has been nagging at me. The old Spacers Guild navigators were dependent on
>spice essence in order to "fold space" and reach their destinations,
>correct?

No, not correct.  That's what they said in the movie, not the book.

The key word here is "navigator".  According to the book, FTL space flight
was possible, but very dangerous.  The spice gave the navigator a limited
prescience which allowed him/her/it to see the consequences of different
routes so that he/she/it could choose a safe one.  Later the Ixians
invented a mechanical substitute and the spice was no longer needed.

The movie was full of gross errors, such as "fighting with sound" and
ornithopters without wings.  I liked the sandworm effects and some of the
scenery but I don't believe the movie came anywhere near to doing the book
justice.  Of course, doing Dune justice in a two hour movie would be quite
a feat.

Darren Leigh
362 Memorial Dr.
Cambridge, MA 02139
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
mit-amt!dlleigh

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 20:59:20 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ):
>The old Spacers Guild navigators were dependent on spice essence in order
>to "fold space" and reach their destinations, correct? ... So Arrakis
>(Dune) couldn't have been discovered without Guild navigators. But before
>Arrakis was discovered, there was no spice, and hence no navigators.

Incorrect.  I can't think of any reference to navigators' folding space.
Navigators navigate.  Without their prescience space flight is still
possible, but much more dangerous.  Presumably slower, too.  (Recall that
smugglers were still flying around without navigators.)

Note also that navigators may have used other drugs before the discovery of
melange.  After using the spice, however, they would be in the same
addiction-trap as the Bene Geserit: no going back to the old drugs.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 14:39:31 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt)
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

Referring to melange and starflight:

   I was under the impression from the Dune series that melange did not
create the ability to "fold space", nor did it have any other direct
connection with the stardrive (whatever THAT is).  I thought that it
allowed some people to have the ability to view the possible timelines and
select those which allowed for the proper transit - which is why they were
called "Navigators" and not "Engineers".  The requirements for some kind of
"future sense" seems to be required when you travel faster-than-light: you
literally get there before you left (from the viewpoint of an observer at
the source point).  Thus, the spice allowed SAFE interstellar transit.  It
was possible to go FTL pre-spice, just not overtly healthy.  There was more
about the pre-spice travel in the Dune Encyclopedia, but I don't remember
any specifics.  A device to allow safe FTL w/o the spice was
under development at the end of the series, but I do not recall its success.

jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 07:05:20 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

  There is a Dune Atlas out. Although I can't recall the exact title or the
author, it is a complete compilation of dates and historical events from
day one (before our own time) to the death of the God-Emperor.
  History is entirely different in the Dune universe, such as dates and
events of our own time period. The Bene-Gesserit existed from medieval
times, and had an influence upon history from the start, being able to see
short ways into the future. It's one of the most complete compilations of
history I've seen since Tolkien's Silmarillion.
  Don't take my word for it though as to its contents. This is from memory,
and I've read lots of books since then (being a long time ago), so I might
have mixed things up. But as far as I know, that's the way it goes. Anyway,
it's out there somewhere...

Erik Gorka
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 01:27:57 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>The old Spacers Guild navigators were dependent on spice essence in order
>to "fold space" and reach their destinations, correct?

   Incorrect.  This was foisted off on the public in the movie.  "Dune"
says that the guild navigators used the prescience that the spice gave them
to merely plot the "safest" route though hyperspace for the ships.  Before
the discovery of melange it would seem that they simply took their chances.

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 21:12:01 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>The movie was full of gross errors, such as "fighting with sound" and
>ornithopters without wings.  I liked the sandworm effects and some of the
>scenery but I don't believe the movie came anywhere near to doing the book
>justice.  Of course, doing Dune justice in a two hour movie would be quite
>a feat.

The book had so many aspects to it that I believe there is literally no way
to do all of them justice in a single movie. They picked the safe approach:
they just portrayed the rock-em sock-em adventure aspect. Given this
approach, the various minor deviations like acoustic weapons and wingless
ornithopters could be regarded as simply minor changes necessary for
dramatic portrayal. After all, almost all of the dialogue was taken
word-for-word from the book. I don't see how they could do that, and still
make "mistakes" of this sort. I'm inclined to view it as being on purpose.
Not to say that I *approve*, mind you...  just that I'm inclined to grant
clemency. :-)

What *might* do the movie justice would be a series, each portraying the
same events, but in a different way (this was done in the acclaimed "The
Norman Conquests"; three plays/movies/videos about the same events, each
showing a different aspect). So movie number two could stress the
psychological and political aspects, and number three could portray the
mystical aspects. Or something like that.

Not that they're likely to try this...

Doug Merritt
doug@mica.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!mica!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 22:07:04 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Doing justice (was Re: Dune Paradox)

doug@eris.UUCP (Doug Merritt) writes:
>What *might* do the movie justice would be a series, each portraying the
>same events, but in a different way
>...
> Or something like that.

Picture this: A six week mini-series, doing the kind of straight adaptation
they didn't have time for in the movie.  Mini-series seem to be out of
vogue nowadays, but perhaps some network could be sold on the idea.  (Or
rather, could have been sold before the movie demonstrated the lack of
profit making potential :-) :-)

Same reasoning holds for, say, Lord of the Rings, I think.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu
schwartz@psuvaxg.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 16:27:26 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: telepathy in SF

TENNENBM@kentvm.BITNET (Iris Tennenbaum) writes:
>Good telepath's, hated by society, trying to do good deeds.......
>
>question 2: Are there more of these types of books that I have bypassed
>all these years? ( I just read Pilgramage recently, just finished _TBS_
>today)

   Have you read any of Katherine Kurtz's "Deryni" books? These are good
psionicists, not just telepaths, who are part of a hated/feared/persecuted
sub-race of humanity. The setting is very close to Medeival Britain, but
not on earth. The king (who is 14 years old) is a Deryni, as are some of
his close friends and advisors, but the church considers Deryni to be
heretics. Good stories, lots of political intrigue, great characters.  One
of the few series I like that I haven't seen attacked on the net :-).

   There are three trilogies:

The Chronicles of the Deryni: Deryni Rising
  (modern era)                Deryni Checkmate
                              High Deryni

The Legend of Camber: Camber of Culdi
  (200 years before)  Saint Camber
                      Camber the Heretic

The Histories of King Kelson: The Bishop's Heir
  (modern era, continues)     The King's Justice
  (after first trilogy  )     The Quest for Saint Camber

  In spite of the times in which they are set, I recommend reading them in
the order they were written, as listed above. There is also a collection of
short stories by Kurtz, set in the Deryni universe, called "The Deryni
Archives."

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 19:57:29 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut (Legion)
Subject: Re: Kurtz's Deryni (was:  telepathy in SF)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>The setting is very close to Medieval Britain, but not on earth. The king
>(who is 14 years old) is a Deryni, as are some of his close friends and
>advisors, but the church considers Deryni to be heretics. Good stories,
>lots of political intrigue, great characters.  One of the few series I
>like that I haven't seen attacked on the net :-).

   Or at least not on the Earth we know.  It's in an alternate Earth, where
Britain is connected to the rest of Europe, and where (as you mentioned)
psionic power works.  The Church is the Roman Catholic church, the Scots
are Scots, the Moors are Moors, and the Deryni are persecuted.  BTW, Deryni
aren't the only ones who can use the power.  The kings of Gwynedd (Kurtz's
name for England) can gain these powers by the performance of a ceremony,
etc.  Kelson (the king in the series) finds out in a roundabout way that he
is truly Deryni.
   My suspicion is that she has remained unattacked because she is a good
writer.  I hope she remains both.

   She is writing a few more books set in this universe, the first of which
will be a trilogy, _Morgan Childe,_ outlining the childhood of Alaric
Morgan (naturally).  Besides the Deryni books, she has a new science
fiction novel out, called _The Legacy of Lehr_.  Not bad.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 19:47:28 GMT
From: eric@snark.uucp (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Sterling Lanier

bing@mcnc.org (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>  Is Lanier still well and writing. I really enjoyed the first two books
>and I would like to find out if there is a conclusion to this tale.

Not yet, though do I expect we'll see one. In the mean time, look for his
_Menace_Under_Marswood_, also from Ballantine/Del Rey 1983 in pb. It's good
clean fun in much the same style as the Hiero books, set on a terraformed
and exceedingly jungly Mars.

Lanier is a they-don't-write-them-like-that-any-more writer. His science
leaves more than a little to be desired but he's got a real flair for
exotic visuals and better gut feel for the most satisfying archetypes of
adventure fiction that few of his more sophisticated colleagues can boast.
I'd call him a latter-day analogue of Edgar Rice Burroughs, except that
he's a better and more vigorous writer than Burroughs was in 90% of his
work.

It's obvious he had as much fun writing his books as they are to read.
Great literature they ain't -- but somehow I have a feeling they'll still
be read and enjoyed long after the pretensions of most 20th-century "great
literature" have been forgotten.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
{{uunet,rutgers,ihnp4}!cbmvax,rutgers!vu-vlsi,att}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 06:17:01 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Humans vs. the galaxy

There are a couple of stories that immediately come to mind on the subject
of humans attempting to take on every other sentient life form, being all
but wiped out, and then, many years later, making a comeback.

One very odd one is "Danger! Human!", by Gordon Dickson.  Some bear-like
aliens find a planetful of humans, which were supposedly extinct, and say
'Odd, they don't seem that dangerous.'  Then they proceed to kidnap one and
study him to try and figure out why humans were so dangerous many long eons
ago.  Bad move, space cadet.

The other one is pure fun, "With Friends Like These", by Alan Dean Foster.
Earth and an empire headed by the Veen did battle eons ago.  Earth lost,
but the planetary defenses were too strong to breach, so the Veen put a
force field around Earth to lock us in until such time as they saw fit to
let us out.  Then, weakened by the war, the empire collapsed, and the Veen
were wiped out.

Now, there's a new threat, in the infernal Yop.  The Federation is losing,
and there is only one hope -- to enlist the aid of (shudder!) the humans.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 18 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Hubbard (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 13:15:20 GMT
From: zgel05@apctrc.uucp (George E. Lehmann)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard -- Don't believe for a minute that
>people will consider you a hero for dragging your way through this
>monstrosity.  I know the book is thick and it looks like you're getting a
>bargain down at Walden books; but think twice before you make the attempt.
>Maybe somebody will put out a condensed version so the curious can get a
>taste of the old pulp style without wasting months on the trash.
 
Just my two-cents worth.  I enjoyed BE very much.  It is long, but it was
one of the most enjoyable 36-hour reading binges in memory.  However!!, the
decalogy "Mission to Earth" that was published under his name later (he
died around the time the first one was published, I don't know if he
authored all ten books) is extremely very heavily overly too much too far
stretched out!  If book 1 of the series (which I foolishly bought) had been
condensed into one chapter of a ten-chapter book it may have worked.  Good
reading to ya!

George Lehmann
Amoco Production Co.
PO BOX 3385
Tulsa, Ok  74102  
918-660-4066
...!uunet!apctrc!zgel05

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 01:32:09 GMT
From: jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

zgel05@apctrc.UUCP (George E. Lehmann) writes:
>dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>>Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard -- Don't believe for a minute that
>>people will consider you a hero for dragging your way through this
>>monstrosity.

BattleField: Earth is not a novel.  What it is, I'm not sure, but it isn't
a novel, nor is it Science Fiction.  It's pulp.  Bad pulp.  Peppered with
pseudo-scientific babble (remember the alien's "secret mathematics", using
base 11, when *everyone* knows that base 10 is the most natural and logical
way to calculate.  Base eleven was chosen because it's so "hard", and
"confusing".  BE=BS, what more do you need?).  This "book" is full of
glaring errors, ridiculous assumptions, and gross generalizations.

>Just my two-cents worth.  I enjoyed BE very much.  It is long, but it was
>one of the most enjoyable 36-hour reading binges in memory.

Thirty-six hours wasted!  Of course, I read it too, but I knew what I was
getting.  Interestingly enough, the book contains no references to
Hubbard's more "serious" works.  Everything is carefully structured to have
you think that he's a legend, returned from the 50's to show what *good*
science fiction is.

  My advice: look at it in the bookstore, read about 50 pages from the
middle, then walk away laughing, glad that you haven't wasted your money.

J Greely
The Ohio State University
Department of Computer and Information Sciences
jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 16:37:49 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely) writes:
>BattleField: Earth is not a novel.  What it is, I'm not sure, but it isn't
>a novel, nor is it Science Fiction.  It's pulp.  Bad pulp.  Peppered with
>pseudo-scientific babble (remember the alien's "secret mathematics", using
>base 11, when *everyone* knows that base 10 is the most natural and
>logical way to calculate.

Oh?  Personally I believe that base 2 is the "most natural," and obviously
the "most logical." :-) Second "most natural" would be base 16.  But then
I'm a computer scientist.

My point is that "most natural" is more likely related to application than
"naturalness" -- I find it much, much more convenient to think in base 16
than base 10 when working with computers, and more convenient to work with
base 10 when with people (who have this odd habit of not understanding that
"20" is "f+f+2").

>[...] BE=BS, what more do you need?).  This "book" is full of glaring
>errors, ridiculous assumptions, and gross generalizations.

I suppose I wasn't being overcritical when I read the book, but could you
clarify with some examples?

>>Just my two-cents worth.  I enjoyed BE very much.  It is long, but it was
>>one of the most enjoyable 36-hour reading binges in memory.
>
>Thirty-six hours wasted!  Of course, I read it too, but I knew what I
>was getting.

This brings up an interesting (related) side-topic.  Does everyone remember
all the ruckus over "demonic" phrases found in records when they're played
backwards?  It seems that some psychologists wondered if they were really
hearing words, or if they were hearing what they wanted to hear.

They set up a test with three groups, each of which listened to music
played backwards.  The control group was asked what they heard after the
record was played.  The general concensus was "gibberish".  The second
group was asked to listen for words (before they heard the music).  They
managed to find all kinds of unconnected words.  The third group was asked
to listen for phrases with religious significance.  You got it -- they
found some.

So: what you get out of something is quite often what you expect to get out
of it.  If you were expecting pulp, it's not surprising that that's what
you got.

>  My advice: look at it in the bookstore, read about 50 pages from the
>middle, then walk away laughing, glad that you haven't wasted your money.

This isn't such good advice.  You'll miss all of the background that you
need to have some idea of what's going on.  With no background on the
characters and events, you'll be hard-pressed to get much out of any book.

My advice is to take the book out of the nearest library; you don't waste
your money that way, either.  Personally I enjoyed the book.  There was at
least an attempt to deal with a wide variety of topics, both scientific and
political.  I wasn't being too critical when I read the book -- I probably
missed all kinds of technical errors -- but I believe books are to be
entertaining and not perfect.

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 07:21:26 GMT
From: jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

madd@bu-it.bu.edu (Jim Frost) writes:
>jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely) writes:
>>BattleField: Earth is not a novel.  What it is, I'm not sure, but it
>>isn't a novel, nor is it Science Fiction.  It's pulp.  Bad pulp.
>>Peppered with pseudo-scientific babble (remember the alien's "secret
>>mathematics", using base 11, when *everyone* knows that base 10 is the
>>most natural and logical way to calculate.
>
>Oh?  Personally I believe that base 2 is the "most natural," and obviously
>the "most logical." :-) Second "most natural" would be base 16.  But then
>I'm a computer scientist.

Did I say that *I* felt base 10 was the most natural?  Nope.  What I was
trying to get across was that that was what the *book* explicitly states.
Every race, no matter what their physical construction, agreed that base 10
was the most natural, and that the "villains" (what were they called,
anyway?) had deliberately chosen an intrinsically difficult base in which
to perform their mathematics.

  This was one of the first silly things that hit me.  Sure, base 11 is of
limited utility (a prime base? (hmmm.... Prime Base?  Shades of Doc
Smith!)), but there's nothing so awful about it that space-faring alien
races (or humans, which weren't space-faring at first) would find it
impossible to use.  Of course they'd convert it to their local base, but
would every known race use base 10?  Damned unlikely.

>My point is that "most natural" is more likely related to application
>than "naturalness"

Yes, but no reason is given why base 10 is better for advanced mechanics
(what was the villain's techno-secret?) than any other.  Everyone just
baldly states that base 10 is the best.

>>[...] BE=BS, what more do you need?).  This "book" is full of glaring
>>errors, ridiculous assumptions, and gross generalizations.

>I suppose I wasn't being overcritical when I read the book, but could
>you clarify with some examples?

I read this turkey four years ago.  Any concrete examples ended up in the
bit bucket soon after.

>>>Just my two-cents worth.  I enjoyed BE very much.  It is long, but it
>>>was one of the most enjoyable 36-hour reading binges in memory.
>>
>>Thirty-six hours wasted!  Of course, I read it too, but I knew what I
>>was getting.

(I stand by this, but feel free to waste cash)

>This brings up an interesting (related) side-topic.

Interesting?  Yes.  Relevant?  Barely.

>Does everyone remember all the ruckus over "demonic" phrases found in
>records when they're played backwards?  It seems that some psychologists
>wondered if they were really hearing words, or if they were hearing what
>they wanted to hear.

Yes.  I always wanted to buy a copy of "Amazing Grace", play it backwards,
and see what I came up with.

>[explanation of technique deleted.  stock psych experiment #12] So: what
>you get out of something is quite often what you expect to get out of it.
>If you were expecting pulp, it's not surprising that that's what you got.

I wasn't expecting pulp.  I was expecting drivel.  Minor difference.  I was
pleasantly surprised to find that it reached as high as pulp, given the
author's track record (BTW, did anyone else notice that there is not a
single mention of his *real* occupation?  And how about the "soon to be a
major motion picture" nonsense?).  Just to toss in some more, I have read
as much of Dianetics (or perhaps, Diuretics) as I could stand, ending up
with a severe case of the giggles.  Karl Marx had one thing right.
"Religion..."

  L. Ron Hubbard was never much of a writer (ever try to find some of his
fifties material?  Keep looking), and BattleField Earth was a perfect
capstone to his career.  What's that, I hear you cry?  "What about Mission:
Earth, his 12-volume mega-series?"  Oh, yeah.  The one he wrote in its
entirety, then kicked off before they got the first volume out.  Yes
Virginia, I believe he wrote all of them, just like I believe that one
person wrote all the Hardy Boys books (given the choice, I'll take the
Hardy Boys.  They're not as pretentious).

>>  My advice: look at it in the bookstore, read about 50 pages from the
>>middle, then walk away laughing, glad that you haven't wasted your
>>money.

>This isn't such good advice.  You'll miss all of the background that you
>need to have some idea of what's going on.  With no background on the
>characters and events, you'll be hard-pressed to get much out of any book.

>My advice is to take the book out of the nearest library; you don't waste
>your money that way, either.

Worth a shot, but I never knew of a library that carried it (for the
record, I borrowed it from someone, read it 1.2 times, gave it back, and
suggested that the owner become the ex-owner).

>Personally I enjoyed the book.  There was at least an attempt to deal with
>a wide variety of topics, both scientific and political.

Yup, it dealt with them all right.  In an unrealistic fashion, but what do
you want for $x, quality?

>I wasn't being too critical when I read the book -- I probably missed all
>kinds of technical errors -- but I believe books are to be entertaining
>and not perfect.

Well, I agree that books are [meant] to be entertaining, but a little
accuracy never hurts.  It just felt like Hubbard took all the bad SF
science from the fifties, made no attempt to clean it up, wove a classicly
cliche "downtrodden earthman saves universe" plot around it, tossed in the
usual sadistic alien, filed off the serial numbers, and went with it.

J Greely
The Ohio State University
Department of Computer and Information Sciences
jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 01:22:58 GMT
From: root@mfci.uucp (SuperUser)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>When books get that bad, you're just wasting your time.
>Here is a list of other books that you shouldn't finish:
>
>Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard -- Don't believe for a minute that
>people will consider you a hero for dragging your way through this
>monstrosity.  I know the book is thick and it looks like you're getting a
>bargain down at Walden books; but think twice before you make the attempt.
>Maybe somebody will put out a condensed version so the curious can get a
>taste of the old pulp style without wasting months on the trash.

Ouch.  You really know how to hurt a guy, Darren.  I purposefully avoided
Battlefield Earth because I was so put off by the Dianetics/Scientology
crap Hubbard started, but when I finally got access to somebody else's copy
I was very surprised by how much I liked it.

Bob Colwell
Multiflow Computer
175 N. Main St.
Branford, CT 06405     
203-488-6090
mfci!colwell@uunet.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 20:33:00 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Battlefield Earth

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard -- Don't believe for a minute that
>people will consider you a hero for dragging your way through this
>monstrosity.  I know the book is thick and it looks like you're getting a
>bargain down at Walden books; but think twice before you make the attempt.
>Maybe somebody will put out a condensed version so the curious can get a
>taste of the old pulp style without wasting months on the trash.

  Will anyone out there join me in defending _Battlefield Earth_? Let's get
one thing straight first: this book is *trash*, and I will not attempt to
defend it from a literary standpoint. But it was *lots* of fun to read. A
great rock 'em-sock 'em go-boys-go heroic adventure story. Simple plot, a
few really dumb plot devices, and really enjoyable action. As for "wasting
months", the pacing and style just carried me through the book. Roughly
1100 pages, took me about a week to read. Just don't ever make the mistake
of taking it seriously.

  On the cover it bears those immortal words "Soon to be a major motion
picture." Anyone know whether this was/is true? Or what happened to make it
false?

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 20:10:17 GMT
From: paul@uscacsc.usc.edu (Paul Nahi)
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth (was Re: Do I have to finish this book???)

ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
> Lots of fun to read? Whew! After reading about half of the first volume,
> I got sick and tired of the main character's whining and the other guy's
> saintliness, and just gave up. And I had already bought the first five
> volumes (SFBC had a 'deal'). What little action there was didn't nearly
> make up for the wooden dialog. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I gave them
> to my brother without comment. (At least he didn't pay for them!) Unless
> you, too, can get them for free, don't bother.

I think you are confusing Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth (Both of
which I enjoyed very much).

Paul Nahi
Advanced Computing Support Center
paul@uscacsc.usc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 13:18:51 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth (was Re: Do I have to finish this book???)

paul@uscacsc.UUCP (Paul Nahi) writes:
>ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
(negative opinion)
>I think you are confusing Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth (Both of
>which I enjoyed very much).

Oops, you're right. Sorry about that. Battlefield Earth isn't nearly as bad
as Mission Earth. I picked up BE at a used book store, and it was okay.
However, if I had had any thing better to read, BE would have been a waste
of time. There are just too many authors who can write a good story with
interesting characters to spend much time on this kind of writing. If you
are contemplating ME, try BE first; if you aren't wild about it, I doubt ME
will interest you.

ned

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 19 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Anderson & Brin (2 msgs) & Brust (3 msgs) &
                    New Science Fiction Writers (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 05:57:49 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Polesotechnic League

levin@BBN.COM (Joel B Levin) writes:
>I have only read some random parts of the Nicholas van Rxxx(?)  stories by
>Poul Anderson, ...  Does anyone have a full list of this set of stories /
>novels?  I'd like at some point to read more of them.

I've got most of them, I think.  From a short story ("How to be Ethnic in
One Easy Lesson", in the anthology "Future Quest") about Adzel when he was
a student at the Acadamy in San Francisco, to the Flandry of Terra storis
set after the collapse of the Polesotechnic league, near the end of the
Empire that followed it.

Ah, I just pulled out my copy of "A Stone in Heaven", an example of that
unlamented fad for padding a novella out with illustrations and selling it
as a novel. *Ahem*.  Well, it has a time line for Anderson's future
history.  (ASiH was a *very* good story, by the way, but should have been
longer, or collected with another story.  In my opinion.)

Hitting some of the higlights --

2150  "Wings of Victory"  (Discovery of Ythri)
2376  Nick van Rijn born
2415  "How to be Ethnic..."  Adzel sings Fafnir in the opera "Sigfried"
2426  "The Three-cornered Wheel"  (David Falkayn story) 
      "The Man who Counts" (Nick)
2427  "The Trouble Twisters", aka "Trader Team", Falkayn, Adzel, & Chee Lan.
2437  "Satan's World"
2446  "Lodestar", near end of Polesotechnic League, break between Falkayn
      and van Rijn.
late 25'th century, colonization of Avalon.
late 26'th century, dissolution of Polesotechnic League.  (That late? Hmm.
     got to go back and read these again.
27'th C   "Time of Troubles", barbarians have bought self-maintaining
     starships, and are looting the galaxy.  Collapse.
28'th C  Founding of the Terran Empire
29'th C  "People of the Wind", when Empire tries to annex Avalon.
3000  Birth of Dominic Flandry
3019  "Ensign Flandry"
3025  "The Rebel Worlds"
3028  "The Day of Their Return"
3047  "A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows"
3061  "A Stone in Heaven"
Early 4000's - fall of the Terran Empire
Mid 4000's - The Long Night
3900  "The Night Face"
4000  "The Sharing of Flesh"
7100  "Starfog"

Typing all this in has me wanting to go back and read all of these over
again.  Anderson's stories have long been one of my favorites.  From the
seeking for knowledge of "Wings of Victory", to the seeking for profits,
but basically a cheerful, optimistic attitude of the Polesotechnic League
stories, to the pessimism of the Empire, to the horror and despair of The
Long Night, to the eventual rebirth -- This is a grand, sweeping saga.  I'd
love to have them all in quality hardbacks, like the ones that Gregg Press
used to put out.  (Unfortunately, they aren't around any more.  They
preferred new-wavey literary exercises that don't say anything.)

These books do something to me -- something I have a hard time describing.
C. S. Lewis called it "Joy" in his autobiography.  SF people call it "Sense
of Wonder".  It's what keeps me reading this stuff.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 19:34:31 GMT
From: randy@ncifcrf.gov 
Subject: Re: David Brin

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
> [quoted text deleted]
> A novel about a woman who's a "very bright girl" and a feminist, to boot?
> This must be Brin's fantasy novel - I somehow doubt, from both his books
> and meeting him in person, that he could write a book about a feminist
> which was anything less than condescending.

   I disagree with you, both from reading his books and from meeting him in
person.  He strikes me as feeling that men and women have some definite
differences between them, but that women are as capable (in general) as men
in most ways.  Neither Athaclena in _The Uplift War_ (alien, but still
female), or Helene De Silva in _Sundiver_ strikes me as being your basic
wallflower types.  Even Dena in _The Postman_ strikes me as being
sympathetically portrayed, although this is arguable (I think he portrays
her as crazy, but still having some justice in her point of view.  And her
point of view is a *very* feministic one).  I think the portrayal of both
Gillian and Gillian and Tom's relationship in _Startide Rising_ were very
non-sexist.

   If you are making a distinction between "feminist" and "very strong,
capable female character" and defining feminism in the more fanatical sense
("Men are worthless" & etc.) you may have a point; I don't think Brin is a
fan of fanaticism in any way, shape or form.  However, I do think that he
agrees with the feminist ideals, does not believe in discrimination on the
basis of sex, and does not have a condescending attitude towards people who
are fighting for these ideals.  My *impression* of him is that he rather
likes strong-minded, idealistic women and I tend to think that most women
that fall into that category are feminist.  Who knows?  Anybody feel like
they have a better feel for his personality than I do (which is based on
about 50 minutes cumulative time talking to him at a couple of
conventions)?

   Comments and flames welcome.  If the signal-to-noise ratio is low in the
latter send them to my mailbox; don't bother the net with them.

Randy Smith
NCI Supercomputer Facility
c/o PRI, Inc.
PO Box B, Bldng. 430  
Frederick, MD 21701	
(301) 698-5660                  
Uucp: ...!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!randy
Arpa: randy@ncifcrf.gov

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 02:16:27 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: David Brin

randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>  I don't think Brin is a fan of fanaticism in any way, shape or form.

Definitely agree. See his editorial piece "The Dogma of Otherness" which
appeared in Analog sometime in 1986. It points out how we've gotten so that
we're close minded in the name of openmindedness (if that makes sense; it's
a great article the way *he* puts it).

An example he uses, sure to stir up flames here, is the way people continue
to insist that dolphins are intelligent. According to him, there has now
been sufficient research to disprove this. Go ahead and argue...he's
convinced me, and I can quote his arguments, at least. (Better than my own
since he's more of an expert on the subject than I am.)

In case it's not clear, the point is that people are fanatical about
finding ways to claim that dolphins are intelligent, even in the face of
evidence to the contrary.

Gee, I sure hope he really *was* the article of that piece, else I'll
really get flamed over this.

Doug Merritt
doug@mica.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!mica!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 05:20:20 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #113

bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU (Bard Bloom) writes:
>> flee@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes:
>>>Also, Devera makes an appearance in every book, except
>>>_To_Reign_In_Hell_.  (at least, I don't *think* she appears in TRIH.  I
>>>could be wrong.)
>> 
>> eh? I just read _Taltos_; where is she in there? And why is she in
>> _The_Sun_ etc.?
>
>I don't have _Taltos_ here, but I seem to remember that Vlad met a young
>girl in the Paths of the Dead, for only a sentence or two?  Probably she
>was Devera.

Have any of you read the book _Brokedown Palace_? (I just started this
group, so maybe you already covered it) It's about Fenario (you know, where
the wine comes from) and has the Goddess Verra (I think) in it. In that
book too the main character meets a small girl names Devera. Haven't quite
figured out the connection though...

Oh yeah, _To Reign In Hell_ is totally separate from the other books. It's
based on Milton's _Paradise Lost_ about the fall of the angels (Satan), so
has little to do with Dragaera or Fenario or the Vladmir Taltos world.

(Oh, in BC, there is the origin of the name Taltos - a very special kind of
animal which talks and has powers that are outside the realm of Faerie -
usually associated with a horse.)

Erik Gorka
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 20:08:22 GMT
From: dmw3@ur-tut 
Subject: Re: Brust; clarification

kyre@reed.UUCP (Erik Gorka) writes:
>Have any of you read the book _Brokedown Palace_? (I just started this
>group, so maybe you already covered it) It's about Fenario (you know,
>where the wine comes from) and has the Goddess Verra (I think) in it. In
>that book too the main character meets a small girl names Devera. Haven't
>quite figured out the connection though...

   I found her!  In To Reign in Hell, chapter 1, in the italics, there is
mentioned a little girl with big brown eyes, who is gone before she really
appears.  This is probably Devera, no?
   Where is she in _Jhereg_?

   As far as I can tell, _Brokedown Palace_ is set several years after the
_Jhereg_ series.  The Demon Goddess appears, and is a big character.  The
Devera in that book may or may not be the same one as in the others, but if
she is, she is (assumedly) Aliera's daughter. (ref: "Don't tell my mommy
that I was here." (Yendi)) Just speculation, you understand...

   She is full Dragaerian.  References are made to half-Dragaerians.  I
thought they couldn't interbreed?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 21:08:26 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

chuq@plaid.UUCP writes:
>>On another track... is anyone else out there as disgusted with Teckla as
>>I am?
>
> Well, as a counterpoint, I believe that Teckla is Steve's best work. It
> is the first book where he really opens up and puts himself into the work
> instead of just writing entertaining material. It's a very intense,
> emotional book that really shows what Steve has the potential to write.

That's a good point. I guess I saw a lot of Steve Brust in there. Problem
is, I didn't really see much Vlad Taltos... who is, after all, the main
character and point of view.

To me it seems that the book is mainly Brust trying to say "Hey, I'm not
really a bad guy like Vlad".

Or maybe he was finding it hard to identify with his own creation.

Personally, I don't see Vlad as being such a bad guy. Given his background,
he's a pretty amazing human being. Or he was until Teckla.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 17:14:13 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Writers

>Having gotten tired of the same old discussions about the same old
>writers, I decided to talk about some of the newer science fiction
>writers.  I am limiting my discussion to science fiction and not fantasy,
>because while I enjoy reading both, I find there is a shortage of good
>science fiction, and no shortage of good fantasy.

>Melissa Scott
>
>A competent storyteller.  Her characters are pretty good, but could get
>better.  So far, most of her work has been the "Silence" trilogy, which is
>borderline fantasy.  I get the impression she is somewhat anti-technology,
>but this may be just the milieu of that series.  It *is* an interesting
>premise, well worked out.  Promising, but we'll see.

I don't see her as anti-technology. Her emphasis is on social change and
people, and she uses technology as the force of change. But I don't see
this as negative. And I disagree with you that she's borderline Fantasy.
The harmonium is different, but no more unrealistic a motive force than any
other hyperdrive hand-waving. And more interesting than most....

If you've only read her Silence work, you've missed her best, which is "The
Kindly Ones" (Baen paperback). Melissa wrote a piece on it in OtherRealms
#19, and I reviewed it in OtherRealms #20.

>David Drake

Not terribly new. A good escapist writer, though....

Others from my lists.... 

The net hasn't talked much about Mike Resnick, who's equally at home with
SF and Fantasy, and has done some really interesting work. A lot of his
stuff (for instance, his upcoming Ivory) is in lots of ways only
peripherally SF, dealing with some larger vision from within the SF world.
His last book was "The Dark Lady" (Tor paper, November) and a fascinating
philosophical study.

And just to put in plugs for a couple of people who don't really need them,
if you're into SF, especially hard Sf, you should be reading everything you
can get your hands on from both Vernor Vinge and Greg Benford.

Really new kids:

Chris Claremont's first SF potboiler, First Flight, is fun.

A couple of books you can't get yet to keep an eye out for are:

"Resurrection, Inc." by Kevin Anderson (Signet, July)
"Antigravity, Unlimited" by Duncan Long (Avon, July).

I've read galleys of both and they're good first novels, both strong SF
works. RI takes a classic horror theme and turns it into a hard SF story
with a lot of complex interactions. AI is the standard "scientist with
discovery that will change the world fights evil company intent on
protecting its tushie" plot, but it's an interesting variation on a theme.

Too bad we aren't talking about Fantasy here as well.....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 10:28:05 GMT
From: wenn@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Writers

Since I'm always in the lookout for good new authors, I'll put in my own
$0.02

>Kim Stanley Robinson

Good stuff, and I agree it's on the literate side

>Melissa Scott

I like Melissa more than you, but don't like her as much as chuq.  Still
and all, quite worth reading.

>David Drake

I haven't read that much of his, but his novella in Elizabeth Mitchell's
"Free Lancers" left me unimpressed.

>Brian Daley

Oh, ick.  A perfectly generic fantasy author writing perfectly generic
fantasy.  Not to be mentioned in the same breath as the wonderful James
Schmitz.

>F. M. Busby

While F. M. Busby may be undiscussed, he is hardly a New Author (his first
novel is from 1973!).  Most of his works are in two series: Rissa series
and the Demu Trilogy.  The Rissa series starts off as a quite wonderful
space opera with larger than life characters and an evil earth empire.  He
actually spends great effort into constructing how a Slower than Light
drive would affect politics, exploration, and space battles.  It works
quite well.  All his characters suffer from excessive compentance (being
extremely good at most everything), but they suffer from equally large
personality problems so I think it balances well.  The Demu Trilogy is a
more standard space opera.  Both series, however, suffer from the same
flaw: the later books in the series introduce amazing technological
innovations for no good reason, destroying the entire world set-up.  I do
recommend the first half dozen Rissa novels.

>Harry Turtledove

I've only read one of his books "The Misplaced Legion" and wasn't that
impressed.  On the other hand, I don't care that much for "placing
character into strange [quasi]historical setting and see the differences"
genre either.

And now for my contributions.  These were mainly taken from my reading for
the "1988 Locus Best First Novel" award.  Also nominees for the Crompton
Cook Award (for best first novel) are denoted by CCN.

C. S. Friedman - "In Conquest Born" [CCN].  This is space opera with scope
AND marvelous characterization. Some silly science, but still a wonderful
book.

Michael Armstrong - "After the Zap" [CCN].  This is the story of the world
when everyone's brain was fried by a huge EMP bomb.  Personally I wasn't
that impressed, but some people seem to rave about it.

Christopher Hinz - "Liege-Killer" [CCN].  Good stuff.  Genetically
engineered assasians, Political intrigue, Two individuals who are actually
one person, Space gypsies, And dancing bears (well, maybe I lied about the
dancing bears).  Strangely enough this random assortment of elements works
out well together.

Rebecca Ore - "Becoming Alien".  A good study of a teenager off to the
alien academy.  While this plot has been done a number of times, the
approach used here is different enough, and well done enough to make a
really good book.

Hope this helps,

John

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 20:26:07 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Writers

>I don't know about Vernor Vinge, but why oh why do so many of you out
>there want to torture yourself with Benford (A.k.a. The Man who Cannot
>Write)??

Because some of us happen to think that Benford is a really good writer.

Tastes differ. Just because you don't like Benford doesn't mean everyone
doesn't like him. Remember, somewhere out there, folks read Gor books, and
like those, too....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 19 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Calvino & Delany & Eddings (3 msgs) &
                       Friedman & Godwin & Hogan & LeGuin &
                       Lindsay (2 msgs) & Moorcock &
                       Rosenberg & Schmitz (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 18:18:19 GMT
From: fleishman-glenn@cs.yale.edu (Glenn Fleishman)
Subject: Re: And the saga continueth. (good authors vs. pap?)

At the risk of starting dueling authors, might I also suggest: Italo
Calvino -- Cosmicomics and about 14 other books in English at present. Some
of his work is in the science fiction genre, such as Cosmicomics and T zero
(T con zero in Italian titling), but all that I have read is extremely
thought-provoking. I'm not quite sure I really like his writing, but I do
know that I am constantly brought back to concepts I have found there. It's
true speculative fiction, but with humor and incredible twists of
perspective and points-of-view.

Glenn I. Fleishman
FLEGLEI@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 07:30:12 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Who you should read  (was Re: Mais oiu, *ALL* Anthony is trash)

>However...add Delany to that list.  Or, at least, read _Dhalgren_.
>Certainly NOT "simple" stuff.

Whatever you do, *don't* start with Dahlgren.  Follow the author somewhat,
starting with Driftglass (short stories) or The Einstein Instersection,
Nova and/or Triton and then consider Dahlgren or the Neveryona novels.

Dahlgren has an earned reputation for being indigestible, however one may
still find it interesting reading.  Check out the non-fiction Heavenly
Breakfast for some sense of perspective.

George Robbins
215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 04:12:35 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)
Subject: Re: Mallorean

Being a new person in this group, and finding over 300 articles to read, I
am not sure that this subject has been brought up yet (haven't quite gotten
through them all yet), so please bear with me...

In the first series, does anyone recall the ringing of bells? It's been
awhile since I've read it (being a *hrmmm* hard working college student)
but I remember that when Belgarion brought the horse back to life, there
was the ringing of a bell "as if something had gone right" (or some such
quote like that). The same when he created the flower bush for his cousin
before he went to the Vale for the first time. Any suggestions as to what
significance these might have?

(Waiting for the money to buy the _King of the Murgos_ in hardback)

Erik Gorka
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 05:12:40 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)
Subject: Re: Mallorean

kyre@reed.UUCP (Erik Gorka) writes:
>In the first series, does anyone recall the ringing of bells? It's been
>awhile since I've read it (being a *hrmmm* hard working college student)
>but I remember that when Belgarion brought the horse back to life, there
>was the ringing of a bell "as if something had gone right" (or some such
>quote like that). The same when he created the flower bush for his cousin
>before he went to the Vale for the first time. Any suggestions as to what
>significance these might have?

Just to clearify things, I don't remember the significance of these things
being related in the first series. After finishing them (and before I even
knew there would be a second series) I thought that there probably would be
a second series because of these very clues.

So? Any ideas out there as to what they are for? Horse has a definite part
in all this, and as for the flowers, I don't know. Then again, I haven't
read the second book yet...

Erik Gorka
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 05:45:31 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)
Subject: Re:  Malloreon Odds; My picks and my attempts (mild spoilers)

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM (Richard Harter) writes:
>Yeah, the geography is a lot like Earth -- sort of.  I sort of think of
>the Cherek's being norse, the Arendians being feudal European, Mallorea
>being Asia, Riva occupying the position of the British Isles, Tolnedra a
>geographically displaced Roman Empire, Nyissa as a tropical oriental
>despotism, Ulgoland as Switzerland, and Chtol Murgos as a cross between
>South America and Africa.  Ghandabar will turn out to be India.  The gulf
>of Cherek is the baltic.  No mediterranean.  Algaria is a displaced
>Argentine pampas.  What used to be the middle east and the Ukraine got
>wiped out when Torak cracked the world.

  If anybody knows anything about Reed College, you'll know where he got
all the different types of people and geographic areas, as well as the
types of personalities. We have a class called Humanities 110 (all the
freshman take it) which covers the time periods from Ancient Greece (Homer)
to the Middle Ages (Dante).
  The Mimbrate knights and Arendia are right out of the Medieval France,
right down to the courtly love stuff. Yes, the Tolnedrans are taken from
Imperial Rome, the Chereks are from the Northern Countries (all those norse
raids on Northern Europe) Rivans are indeed of the British Isles, Cthol
Murgos is probably the Middle East (we covered the invasions of the Muslims
and the Crusades in the class). Nyissans are probably Egyptian or North
African (remember those Roman conquests?), and Ulgoland is probably
Protestant Reformation Switzerland (but from Hum 210 - Middle ages to
industrial revolution). Sendaria and Algaria are up for grabs though. I'll
have to reread the books after I finish Hum 210 though, and I can probably
tell you more.

When I get the time I'll look up Eddings' thesis and I'll tell you
what it was on. Should be interesting...

Erik Gorka
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 12:08:35 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Writers

wenn@K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (John Wenn) writes:
>C. S. Friedman - "In Conquest Born" [CCN].  This is space opera with scope
>AND marvelous characterization. Some silly science, but still a wonderful
>book.

In Conquest Born is a fairly original space opera, and I did find it
somewhat enjoyable. However the "marvelous characterization" is exactly
what bothered me most about the book. When the characterization was on
target it could be very exciting, but Friedman pushed it so hard I think
her characters ended up overdrawn and not very believable.

John L. McKernan
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 16:49:26 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Tom Godwin

garrow@GATEWAY.MITRE.ORG:
>I finally found a copy of Tom Godwin's SPACE PRISON in a used bookstore,
>after looking for years.  Wonderful book!  Does anyone know if he wrote
>anything other than that and its sequel SPACE BARBARIANS?  I know the
>titles sound trite but the books are great.

They certainly are!

He wrote one other novel that I know of (I forget the title; it wasn't very
good).  He also wrote one of the classic short stories:

"The Cold Equations".

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 11:52:15 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: hard science

webb@webb.applicon.UUCP writes:
>  Another author of 'hard' science fiction that you might enjoy is James
>P. Hogan.  His book _Code of the LifeMaker_ is both good science fiction
>and wonderful social commentary.  He handles the technical/scientific
>aspects of science-fiction well, and understands people well enough to
>create interesting, believeable characters.  I would strongly recommend
>_Code of the LifeMaker_.

This was a pretty good book, I enjoyed the beginning sequence with the
birth of the robot people alot. But I felt that the book was a bit of a let
down overall. The human characterization was unoriginal and suffered from a
lot of cliches. And I was annoyed that the robot people turned out to be
just metallic humans instead of something more original.

John L. McKernan
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 18:01:09 GMT
From: leake@cme-durer.arpa (Stephe Leake)
Subject: Le Guin

A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away), I read Le Guin's "The Left
Hand of Darkness" (great book). A short time later, I read a short story
(by Le Guin) entitled (I think) "Winter's King", in which a king from
Winter abdicates, fearing she may have been mind-programmed. An interesting
thing about the story was that Le Guin used female pronouns to refer to
Winter's inhabitants, rather than male as in "Left Hand of Darkness". Now
for my problem: I can't remember where I read "Winter's King". I think it
was in an anthology.  Can anyone enlighten me?

Stephe Leake  
National Bureau of Standards  
Rm. B-124, Bldg. 220   
Gaithersburg, MD  20899
(301) 975-3431
ARPA: leake@durer.cme.nbs.gov
UUCP: uunet!cme-durer!leake

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 09:53:01 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: _A Voyage to Arcturus_

David Lindsay's _A Voyage to Arcturus_ is a _very_ odd work of fiction.  It
has a touch of Machen's Celtic sensibility, a dash of Lovecraft's _oeuvre_,
and even a bit of Kafkaesque paranoia.

It's definitely worth reading.  It's definitely not _easy_ to read, but
nothing that is in the long run worth reading is also easy to read.

Find it if you can.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 16:32:13 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: _A Voyage to Arcturus_

>David Lindsay's _A Voyage to Arcturus_ is a _very_ odd work of fiction.
>It has a touch of Machen's Celtic sensibility, a dash of Lovecraft's
>_oeuvre_, and even a bit of Kafkaesque paranoia.

For folks who are interested in David Linday's work, Carroll&Graf will be
bringing "Sphinx" back into print this summer. Since's it's basically
impossible to find most of his stuff, this is a good sign.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 88 21:25:17 GMT
From: hwarkentyne@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Kenneth Warkentyne)
Subject: Moorcock

I just finished reading Michael Moorcock's _Gloriana_ and recommend it to
those who might like to read a work of historical fantasy.  The characters
have a familiar flavour to those who have read other Moorcock works.
Indeed one of them is none other than Una Persson.  Others have different
names but resemble some other well known Moorcock characters such as the
Cornelius siblings.  Traveling through time and the "multiverse" is kept to
a minimum.

Ken Warkentyne

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 04:13:33 GMT
From: ameduna@trillium.waterloo.edu (Alex R. Meduna)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>Joel Rosenberg's "Guardian's of the Flame" series of four books:
>
>   The Sleeping Dragon
>   The Sword and the Chain
>   The Silver Crown
>   The Heir Apparent
>
>(After reading the first one, I dug up the rest of the set...I think
>Rosenberg shows some promise.  I think you'll like the dragon's release in
>the first book.)

I agree.  I enjoyed the series, although I'd be the first to admit that
it's not to be classified as great literature.  But Rosenberg has an
exciting and enteraining style, and likes to throw in a unusual twist now
and then. Good action, enjoyable protagonists, and a lot of humour.  The
books have also improved drastically - the first was very spontaneous and
chaotic, Rosenberg didn't seem to know where he was headed.  He's become
much more sure of himself since and the books have been getting better and
better.  Any rumours on when (if?) the next installment is expected ?

Alex R. Meduna
Computer Science
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario
ameduna@trillium.waterloo.edu
ameduna@trillium.uucp
ameduna@watdcs.netnorth
{allegra,clyde,decvax,utzoo}!watmath!{trillium,dahlia,orchid,lily}!ameduna

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 16:45:41 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Sci Fi - Pets (Telzey Amberdon)

Cate3.AISNorth@XEROX.COM writes:
> The story was from "The Universe Against Her" (I think that's the right
> title.) by James Schimtz.

Right title, author's name is spelled Schmitz.

> There was three books on Telzey which were collections of stories from
> Analog through the 1960's and early 1970's.  The second book was "The
> Lion Game" which dealt with Telzey against a bunch of psionic bad people.
> The third book was "The Telzey Toy" which was a collection of four short
> stories.

I forgive you for this one, because Ace makes the same mistake.  Telzey
graduates sometime in the middle of The Lion Game.  Telzey is still in
school during the stories in The Telzey Toy.  Therefore the correct order
is TUAH, then TTT, then TLG.

And if you think these are hard to find, you should try the other books by
Schmitz.  I have the above, plus The Witches of Karres, Agent of Vega,
Legacy (aka A Tale of Two Clocks), the Eternal Frontier, and The Demon
Breed.  Can someone tell me what others I might be missing?

David Eppstein
eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 19:51:48 GMT
From: randy@ncifcrf.gov (The Computer Grue)
Subject: James Schmitz (Was: Re: Sci Fi - Pets (Telzey Amberdon))

    The books of his I know of are:

The Universe Against Her   \
The Telzey Toy              >   Telzey
The Lion Game              /

Tale of Two Clocks (The title _Legacy_ is junk!)   (Trigger)

The Witches of Karres    
Agent of Vega

    (neither of these two last are in the same universe as the rest of his
stories).

    There are two collections of his short stories:

A Pride of Monsters
A Nice Day for Screaming

  (we get some more stuff on Dasinger, Quillian and Wergard (sp?) in
these).  _Pride_ is better, but die hard Schmitz fans will want both.  I
also read a story published in (I believe) Analoge a ways back called "The
Symbiots" which was about Telzey and Trigger together.  Interesting.  One
further piece of information: A sequel to _Witches_, call _Venture of
Karres_ is being published at some point; not written by Schmitz
(unfortunately RIP), but by a fan of his who is connected with the James
Schmitz society.  That's all the info I have on it, though I've been
looking for it for a while.

    If anybody has any more info on this man's works, I'd love to have it.
He was one of my earliest favorite authors and I still enjoy rereading his
books.

Randy Smith
NCI Supercomputer Facility
c/o PRI, Inc.
PO Box B, Bldng. 430  
Frederick, MD 21701	
(301) 698-5660                  
Uucp: ...!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!randy
Arpa: randy@ncifcrf.gov

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 23:56:47 GMT
From: scott@zorch.uu.net (Scott Hazen Mueller)
Subject: Re: Sci Fi - Pets (Telzey Amberdon)

Cate3.AISNorth@XEROX.COM writes:
>     All I remember about the cat was that Telzey got it as a pet, it
>turned out to be intelligent, and had some control over the coloring of
>its fur so it could blend in with its background.  As I remember the cat
>was closer in size to a tiger or mountain lion.

The cats were called 'crest cats' because of the crest of fur on their head
and spine.  Telzey (Amberdon was her last name) got Tick-Tock as a kitten
and named him TT because of the way he purred, which was compared to a
metronome.  The species of crest cats were native to the planet Jontarou (I
think...) and were regarded by the big-game hunters as the best sport
around.  As a result, the crest cats, being intelligent, learned to avoid
humans (the real explanation is more complicated - read the story) and were
thought to be extinct.

I read 'Novice' many times in a collection of short stories from Analog.

Scott Hazen Mueller
(408) 245-9461       
scott@zorch.UU.NET
{pyramid|tolerant|uunet}!zorch!scott

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 07:49:46 GMT
From: kers@otter.hple.hp.com (Christopher Dollin)
Subject: James Schmitz Enquiry

Someone, in discussing a list of recent SF authors, made reference to

    ... the late James Schmitz ...

Is this James Schmitz of _The Witches of Karres_ etc, and is he really
dead?  I have a great fondness for his books.

Regards,

Kers

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 04:54:23 GMT
From: mok@pawl22.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz Enquiry

kers@otter.hple.hp.com (Christopher Dollin) writes:
>Someone, in discussing a list of recent SF authors, made reference to 
>
>    ... the late James Schmitz ...
>Is this James Schmitz of _The Witches of Karres_ etc, and is he really
>dead?  I have a great fondness for his books.

   Yes! The scum had the nerve to die before she wrote a sequel to Witches
of Karres_!!

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 20 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Adams & Aldiss & Benford & Brust (2 msgs) &
                    Budrys & Godwin & Hubbard (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 12:45:44 GMT
From: rolf@warwick.uucp (Rolf Howarth)
Subject: Re: New Douglas Adams?

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>	I have heard that there is a new Douglas Adams Hitchikers book (the
>>fifth?) can anyone confirm this?
>
>I believe this is false. A recent interview with Adams mentioned a sequel
>to "Dirk Gently", and said that it would be the last book in that trilogy,
>the logic being that he needed a two book trilogy to balance out his four
>book trilogy. By implication, this means he isn't planning a fifth
>Hitchhiker's book unless he later wants to write a one book trilogy.

Maybe you heard about the book "Dont Panic: The Official Hitch-Hiker's
Guide to the Galaxy Companion" by Neil Gaiman, which was published in the
UK in January.  This is more or less a biography of Douglas Adams with
comments by him on his work, including Cambridge (not the Footlights!), Dr
Who, and Dirk Gently as well as the Hitch-hiker's guide itself of course,
notes on all the different versions of the HHG, interviews with Adams, John
Lloyd etc., the definitive text of notes on "How To Leave The Planet" and
so on.  As the blurb so modestly says:

   "It's all absolutely devastatingly true - except the bits that are lies.
   Certainly the most outstandingly brilliant book to have been written
   about the Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy since this morning."	-
   Douglas Adams

Rolf
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Warwick
Coventry,  CV4 7AL,  England
+44 203 523523 ext.2485
JANET:  rolf@uk.ac.warwick.flame
UUCP:  {uunet,mcvax}!ukc!warwick!rolf

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 19:21:41 GMT
From: wgarrett@e.ms.uky.edu (Wesley Garrett)
Subject: Brian W. Aldiss

This past week I read a book of short stories by Brian W. Aldiss called
_The_Saliva_Tree_and_other_strange_growths_.  It was great!!  I would like
to start on one of his novels but which one?  Do any Aldiss fans out there
have any they would like to suggest?  Thanks.

Wes Garrett

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 02:56:22 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Benford Bashing

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>People - Greg Benford is one of the better writers in the field.  While
>somewhat irregular, and at times rather impenetrable, he has written some
>truly fine books, including TIMESCAPE, which is one of the best books
>about science and how scientists work that I've ever read.  Ignore this
>twit, and try the books for yourself.  I can't guarantee that you'll like
>them, but I think you should give it a try.

Benford is one of the poorer writers in the field. This does not mean that
he is one of the least popular. The great majority of people enjoy reading
trashy books -- I can't help it. Stephen King is possibly *the* worst
writer I have ever come across, yet he probably sells more books than
anyone else alive today. An awful lot of Harlequin romances are sold too,
but they are still lousy books.

Benford writes books that try to portray the way scientists work. His
portrayal of this seems to me to be valid. However, that is *all* I can
give him credit for in the way of being a "good" writer. His actual ability
to *write* is somewhere between mediocre and poor. But the *main* things
that made TIME-SCAPE such a bad book in my opinion are these:

(1) His plot and plot devices are trite and overused. His characters
    are pretty much cardboard puppets.

(2) An accurate portrayal of how scientists work is *inherently boring*
    from the standpoint of a *story*. BORING! About as exciting as an
    accurate portrayal of the way a chartered public accountant works would
    be if someone wrote one. Or an accurate portrayal of the intricate
    details of any desk or lab job would be. I want a story -- not a
    story-in-the-background-of-an-accurate-portrayal-of-the-way-a-scientist-
    works.

I want a story -- not a biography. Nor a history. Nor a textbook on
introductory physics. Histories and biographies and textbooks are boring,
and that's one of the reasons the novel was invented. But when hard SF
writers try to turn the novel back into a textbook to instruct, directly or
indirectly, their readers, I say they are bad novelists who write bad
novels.

And this, unfortunately, is what Benford does and is.

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 13:40:05 GMT
From: cipher@mmm.uucp (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>chuq@plaid.UUCP writes:
>> ...I believe that Teckla is Steve's best work. It is the first book
>> where he really opens up and puts himself into the work instead of just
>> writing entertaining material...
>
>That's a good point. I guess I saw a lot of Steve Brust in there. Problem
>is, I didn't really see much Vlad Taltos... who is, after all, the main
>character and point of view.
>
>To me it seems that the book is mainly Brust trying to say "Hey, I'm not
>really a bad guy like Vlad".

People -- even fictional characters -- have been known to change.  In
"Teckla," we see Vlad starting to grow up.  Before, he was a "boy" (to use
one of Mr. Brust's own favorite words).  Now, perhaps, he's becoming
something more.

This displeases some readers, because they liked him as he was.  They think
he's less fun now.  We would see the same effect, to a much greater degree,
if Captain Kirk were to study Vulcan philosophy and renounce violence.  All
the "boys" would post articles complaining that they had "ruined" the
character.  In fact, it would make the character much more interesting and
worthwhile.

(There was an excellent panel about "Boys in SF" at MiniCon this year, and
Steve Brust was on it.  For those of you who missed it, I can perhaps give
you a general idea of what a "boy" is: at a con, you can tell the "boys" by
the way they rattle when they walk.)  

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!esdlab!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 03:04:06 GMT
From: fy03+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Francis J. Yenca)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

How do you feel that Vlad has grown up in Teckla?

Frank Yenca

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 20:07:50 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Re: _Michaelmas_ by Algis Budrys

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Just as a side note, I read that book not too long ago. A very forgettable
>book. Already I remember very little about it, except that it was pretty
>boring, a little trite, and somewhat self-serving -- typical Budrys.
>
>Anyone else hate his columns in F&SF?

No, I don't -- I consider Budrys to be one of the very best critics that
science fiction has ever had, and I also happen to like his fiction a great
deal.  _Michaelmas_ was not Budrys at his best, but I did enjoy it, and I
can remember it -- and I read it a number of years ago.  Tastes differ ...
My favorite Budrys novels are _Who?_ and _Rogue_Moon_.  He's also written
some rather striking short stores.  He does have a tendency towards
subtlety, which many do not appreciate.  He also has an excellent command
of the english language, much, much better than that of the run-of-the-mill
writer.

Richard Welty            
Phone H: 518-237-6307  W: 518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{rochester,philabs,uunet}!steinmetz!welty        

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 17:57:12 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: Tom Godwin

THAT'S where I've heard the name Tom Godwin!!!! "The Cold Equations"!!!!
YES YES YES Truly, one of the great stories that should NEVER disappear
(but probably will, long before Valley Of The Dolls!!!  Sorry, I'm in my
(rare) pessimistic funk this morning).  If you haven't read "The Cold
Equations" yet, you're missing a GOOD story!  (Maybe I won't get rid of
those old Astoundings, after all...)

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett
(503) 750-3569

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 14:30:02 GMT
From: bep@ncsc5.at&t.ncsc (Bentz Puryear x8842)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

I enjoyed reading Battlefield Earth, I also lent the book to several of my
friends and they enjoyed it. It is not some great literary work but when I
am reading fiction I want to live another life or different style or just
escape. Sometimes it gets boring reading all the postings from all the
geniuses out there. I am just a average guy who likes to read.

Bentz Puryear
AT&T NCSC
8200 E. Maplewood Ave.
Englewood, Colorado 80111
(303)850-8842
ncsc5!bep

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 08:48:59 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>  Will anyone out there join me in defending _Battlefield Earth_? Let's
>get one thing straight first: this book is *trash*, and I will not attempt
>to defend it from a literary standpoint. But it was *lots* of fun to read.

The problem with this attitude is that there are many fun quality books.
The time spent reading trash could have been much better spent reading
books with something to say between their covers. If you can't think of any
books of reasonable quality (hard to believe), I suggest that you read the
net thoughtfully and find some sources of SF reviews (OtherRealms,
Interzone). When you realize that the time spent reading meaningless trash
could have been spent reading a quality book, "*lots* of fun to read"
really doesn't seem like a good bargain anymore.


John L. McKernan
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 88 01:57:48 GMT
From: macleod@drivax.uucp (MacLeod)
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard  (once again)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>   Are you sure about this? He's been claimed dead for a while, but AS FAR
>AS I KNOW (read: I do not state this as fact) no one's ever proved it.
>And those books keep showing up.  There was a western by Hubbard released
>within the last six months called, if I remember correctly, "Buckskin
>Brigade." This would seem to indicate that he's alive.
>
>   The first I heard about it was on "60 Minutes" a few years ago. They
>were investigating Hubbard's church (Scientology?), and mentioned that no
>one seems to know where he is. Apparently his own son has attempted to
>have him declared dead, but couldn't make it stick.

LRH, as the Church of Scientology calls him, "dropped his body" in January
of 1986, the Friday before the Challenger disaster.  He died at his ranch
in Creston, California, near San Luis Obispo.  When his body was carried
off, the County Coroner and Sheriff were there, so it's likely that it was
genuine.  The body was cremated over the weekend and the ashes scattered.

The official story about Mission Earth was that it was written over a
relatively short time several years before.  "Buckskin Brigades" was his
first novel in print, about 50 years ago, and they resurrected it recently.

As far as Hubbard's (and the C of S's) legal battles, they have both made a
lot of lawyers rich over the years in virtually constant legal wrangling.
Hubbard was extremely reclusive in later years and refused to appear in
court for fear of being assassinated (allegedly).  His oldest son, Ron
DeWolf (formerly LRH jr.), has been used by both the Church and its
detractors over the years in various legal maneuvers.  He has made a number
of wild statements and then later retracted them (such as asserting that
LRH conspired with Errol Flynn to sell defense secrets to the Soviets),
doing so several times.  I have read transcripts of interviews with him,
and he sounds like a basket case if there was ever one.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 04:52:30 GMT
From: moss!codas!novavax!maddoxt@att.arpa (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>[L. Ron Hubbard's been] claimed dead for a while, but AS FAR AS I KNOW
>(read: I do not state this as fact) no one's ever proved it.  And those
>books keep showing up.  There was a western by Hubbard released within the
>last six months called, if I remember correctly, "Buckskin Brigade." This
>would seem to indicate that he's alive.
>
>   The first I heard about it was on "60 Minutes" a few years ago. They
>were investigating Hubbard's church (Scientology?), and mentioned that no
>one seems to know where he is. Apparently his own son has attempted to
>have him declared dead, but couldn't make it stick.
>
>   Does anyone know for sure? I'd really like to find out.

   See Russell Miller's _Bare-Faced Messiah_ for details of L.  Ron's life
and death (pp. 374-75 for death verification).  Published in England and
Canada but not so far as I know (yet) in U. S., this is a matter-of-fact
narrative of the sordid career of one of the century's great con men.
   And, yes, by the way, sf's continuing embrace of L. Ron, Bridge
Publications, Writers of the Future, and the Bridge Pub./Scientology front
hospitality suites at various cons . . . all of the above represents a
continuing repudiation of the idea that people in sf, fans and pros alike,
have above average good sense.
   In short, the con rolls on, and sf abets it.  All the worse for sf.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 20:01:57 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth (was Re: Do I have to finish this book???)

ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
>granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>
>>  Will anyone out there join me in defending _Battlefield Earth_?
>
>Lots of fun to read? Whew! After reading about half of the first volume, I
>got sick and tired of the main character's whining and the other guy's
>saintliness, and just gave up. And I had already bought the first five
>volumes (SFBC had a 'deal').

Whoa! Hold on a moment. I was talking about BATTLEFIELD Earth, which is a
single volume. You are apparently talking about MISSION Earth, which is ten
volumes. I never fell for that one in the first place, and from what I've
heard, I'm glad I didn't. If you're willing to give Hubbard another try,
you'll probably like _Battlefield Earth_ better. No whining, very little
saintliness, lots of action, and...well, yeah, the dialogue is somewhat
wooden. But you can't have everything, right?

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 14:32:09 GMT
From: dg@lakart.uucp (David Goodenough)
Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>   Will anyone out there join me in defending _Battlefield Earth_? Let's
> get one thing straight first: this book is *trash*, and I will not
> attempt to defend it from a literary standpoint. But it was *lots* of fun
> to read. Etc. etc. etc. etc.

Well said!

I thought it was good light reading, and the ending was a bit unexpected.
I grant that the breathing requirements of one race were a bit
questionable, but considering how it subsequently affected the plot (both
right at the start, i.e. why were What's his name and the village (?) left
alone (also why was everyone dying of Cancer); and at the end (what a way
to destroy a planet!!)) it is acceptable.

David Goodenough
dg@lakart.UUCP
...!harvard!adelie!cfisun!lakart!dg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 23:30:04 GMT
From: paul@uscacsc.usc.edu (Paul Nahi)
Subject: Re: Do I have to finish this book???

maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) writes:
> 	See Russell Miller's _Bare-Faced Messiah_ for details of L.  Ron's
> life and death (pp. 374-75 for death verification).  Published in England
> and Canada but not so far as I know (yet) in U. S., this is a
> matter-of-fact narrative of the sordid career of one of the century's
> great con men.

There are countless thousands of success stories on file from people who
have benefited from Dianetics and Scientology.  Of course there people who
have negative things to say about them but considering it is one of the
fastest growing religions on earth I am not suprised to see that a few
feathers have been ruffled, in fact I would be a lot more suprised if no
one had anything bad to say.  The only way to really see is to read the
book Dianetics yourself and see if it makes sense to you.

> 	And, yes, by the way, sf's continuing embrace of L. Ron, Bridge
> Publications, Writers of the Future, and the Bridge Pub./Scientology
> front hospitality suites at various cons . . . all of the above
> represents a continuing repudiation of the idea that people in sf, fans
> and pros alike, have above average good sense.  In short, the con rolls
> on, and sf abets it.  All the worse for sf.

I don't see how a man's religous bent has any bearing over his artistic
abilities as an author.

Paul Nahi
Advanced Computing Support Center
paul@uscacsc.usc.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 20 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:

		Books - Brin & Kurtz & McCaffrey (5 msgs) &
                        Resnick (2 msgs) & Reynolds & 
                        Dragons (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 03:31:00 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: David Brin

randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>> A novel about a woman who's a "very bright girl" and a feminist, to
>> boot?  This must be Brin's fantasy novel - I somehow doubt, from both
>> his books and meeting him in person, that he could write a book about a
>> feminist which was anything less than condescending.
>
>    I disagree with you, both from reading his books and from meeting him
>  in person.

I should have made this more clear.  My statement about David Brin comes
from observing his behavior toward women, at several cons where he has
been, and from statements made to me from many woman fan friends who have
had contact with him.  My feeling is that, whatever he says, his *actions*
indicate a distinct disrespect for women - as an example, don't you feel
that there is something unstated going on when he refers to a bright woman
character as a "girl"?  Most of the female people I know who attend UC
haven't been girls in at least five or six years.  And I've seen him, on
more than one occasion, go into a "why you cute little darling thing"
routine with one or the other female fan, something which I don't accept as
reasonable behavior from anyone who claims to be sympathetic to the
feminist viewpoint.

As far as the books go, his characters are, indeed, more often competent
than not.  This goes for all of the characters, not just the women.  And,
in fact, Gillian in STARTIDE RISING is a very fine character from any
viewpoint you care to look, which made me quite sad to find his actual
attitude so different from the one he appeared to have in that book.  I
have to point out, though, that competence doth not a fully-rounded
character make, and most of his female characters also have little of the
feminine about them - they might as well have been men.  And nearly all of
them need, at one point or another, a man to help them make things work
right.  The one time an overtly feminist character appears, she is
described as being crazy.  How convenient.

Don't let this get to you too much - I think that David Brin writes pretty
good stories, all in all.  It's important not to overlook his faults,
though, and his attitude toward women is definitely one of them.  Compared
with someone like John Norman or Piers Anthony, he's a saint, but then that
puts an awfully low price on sainthood.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 17:38:52 GMT
From: jac@elm.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: What will happen to Camber

mdh@linus.UUCP (Mike Houle) writes:
>dmw3@ur-tut writes:
>> 	She is writing a few more books set in this universe, the first of
>> which will be a trilogy, _Morgan Childe,_ outlining the childhood of
>> Alaric

I thought it was Childe Morgan, but I guess that doesn't really matter.

>> Morgan (naturally).  Besides the Deryni books, she has a new science
>> fiction novel out, called _The Legacy of Lehr_.  Not bad.

I liked this one too, but I thought it was mostly just a mystery set in the
future (i.e. a little new technology that played no real part in the story
and a few aliens to throw in some cultural difficulties).  What did others
think?

>   This just brings something to mind that I have always wondered about.
>We (Those who have read the series) that Camber is active in the world,
>and that he is buried somewhere (that I can't remember right now), in a
>state that

You probably can't remember because Kurtz has been very careful in not
telling us.  We know that they were hidden out at that Michaeline
hideout where they conferred the power on Cinhil, and I assume that
that is where Camber's body is (that is where Jebediah and Alister
are buried), but we don't know where this place is located.

>he might be resurected from.
>
>   Does anyone know if he ever will be revived, and does anyone remember
>that he is not really "DEAD dead".  I mean Kurtz went through great pains
>to make sure that he might have learned the spell of "Self Preservation"
>(or whatever it was called)
>
>   Are We ever going to see him again in the Flesh, and not just as a
>apparition I am just looking for others opinions.  (besides I don't know
>who would be powerfull enough to revive him, (although I am sure he could
>help :-))

The power to bring him back from this spell would be difficult, but not
impossible to find.  Evaine most likely had the scrolls from which Camber
gained his information in the first place.  One of the big problems with
bringing him back (at least the way I see it) is that he will need a lot of
healing immediately (he was in the process of bleeding to death when he
successfully executed the spell).  Of course, we now have 3 healers
available who are all descended from Camber through Evaine and Rhys' kids
(Kurtz mentioned this in an appendix to one of her books --that Morgan and
Duncan (and therefore Dhugal) were descended from Rhys and Evaine-- maybe
Deryni Archives?).  I think it is still possible and I would like to see
it, but at this point I am not going to hold my breath for it.

Another question that I've been wondering about.  If you look at the family
trees in the Camber series you note that Evaine didn't live too long after
the end of that series.  Rhys died (near Christmas time?) in 917 (I'm doing
this from memory so forgive me if I get the dates a little messed up), the
child was born (I don't remember the third kid's name) shortly thereafter
in either 917 or 918 and Evaine died in 918.  What happened?  Also, what
happened in 948?  Joram, Camlin, Cathan's remaining son (name escapes me),
and Evaine's son (the healer, name also escapes me) all die in 948, but the
female healer (Evaine's last child) lives to be well over 80.  Just
curious.  Any speculation?

Jim Clausing
CIS Department			
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210	
jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 18:07:22 GMT
From: cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

peking@doc.dmg.peking.UUCP writes:
>Anne McCaffrey's dragons in the DragonXXXXXX series.
>They even come in five colors: Gold, bronze, green, blue and white

Wrong.  It's gold, bronze, BROWN, green and blue.  (Everyone forgets about
Canth.)

Ruth (white) is a one time mutant and apparently will not pass on his
traits.

Taki Kogoma
{ucbvax,gatech,ames}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!charon!cs2551aq    
cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 88 07:55:32 GMT
From: cs2531ci@charon.unm.edu (Brian Bowers)
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

peking@doc.dmg.peking.UUCP writes:
>Anne McCaffrey's dragons in the DragonXXXXXX series.
>They even come in five colors: Gold, bronze, green, blue and white

You hear Canth chewing firestone  -more-

How dare you forget brown.  Prepare to be flamed by an irate Canth
ridden by F'nor :-)

And, while remembering Ruth is very thoughtful of you, whites are
*EXTREMELY* rare, to the point of Ruth being unique.

In the books, dragons are not alone in being friendly, firebreathing,
flying reptiles.  They are joined by their tiny ancestors, the fire
lizards.  (Same colors as dragons, but only about the size of a person's
arm).

Brian Bowers
cs2531ci@charon.unm.edu
ames!hc!hi!charon!cs2531ci

------------------------------

Date: 8 Apr 88 18:37:24 GMT
From: lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Una Scaith)
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

>Anne McCaffrey's dragons in the DragonXXXXXX series.
>They even come in five colors: Gold, bronze, green, blue and white

And of course, don't forget Brown, and remember Flayed, which is how Canth,
the dragon associated with F'nor looked after their little trip to the Red
Star, which was actually a planet filled with thread.  Canth was brown
before this, and eventually became brown again after he healed.

White dragons are not at all normal, they are runts that would probably
never hatch and impress, except for being cut open by Jaxom.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 03:25:06 GMT
From: jstehma@hubcap.uucp (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: Friendly Dragons

COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU (Dave Combs) writes:
>moss!sfsup!peking@att.arpa (L.Perkins)  writes:
>> Anne McCaffrey's dragons in the DragonXXXXXX series.  They even come in
>> five colors: Gold, bronze, green, blue and white.
>As will almost doubtless be pointed out more than once, there are actually
>SIX colors of dragons in the DragonXXXX series, namely Gold, Bronze,
>BROWN, Green, Blue and White.
>
>If I remember correctly, the white dragon is the first of that color and
>is sterile, I think (I wish I had my books here with me), so there won't
>be any more unless a similar genetic accident occurs.

   Actually, the white dragon is white only if you use the additive color
system (or is that subtractive -- I always forget which is which).  ANYWAY,
he had all the other colors in him, which showed up best when he was clean.

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 21:39:26 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: What color is your dragon? 

cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu.UUCP writes:
>Wrong.  It's gold, bronze, BROWN, green and blue.  (Everyone forgets about
>Canth.)

If you want to list them in order of size, transpose the green and blue.
And how could anyone ever forget Canth, the only brown who ever had the
guts to take a shot at flying the queen? Damn near made it, too (in both
senses). Ever notice the neat way the sexes worked out? Gold and Green are
Girls, while Bronze, Brown, and Blue are Boys. Easy.

>Ruth (white) is a one time mutant and apparently will not pass on his
>traits.

Especially since it was stated specifically in one of the Harper Hall
trilogy books that Ruth is sterile. Or was it just that he had no interest
in mating? I guess, by the mnemonics mentioned above, we can easily
remember that Whites are Without :-).

Pete Granger
...!decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 17:29:04 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Writers

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Others from my lists.... 
>The net hasn't talked much about Mike Resnick, who's equally at home with
>SF and Fantasy, and has done some really interesting work. A lot of his
>stuff (for instance, his upcoming Ivory) is in lots of ways only
>peripherally SF, dealing with some larger vision from within the SF world.
>His last book was "The Dark Lady" (Tor paper, November) and a fascinating
>philosophical study.

I was glad to see this, because I just finished reading Adventures, by Mike
Resnick. Or perhaps the title is Adventures, A Science Fiction Novel, as
that is how the jacket reads. There is also a blurb from Analog referring
to the book as a sendup of classic science fiction (no quotes, I'm not sure
of the exact wording). I bought this book for two reasons: 1) I enjoyed
both Stalking the Unicorn, and Santiago, and 2) since I didn't consider
Santiago to be SF (or whatever) at all, I was curious to see if Adventures
was.  It wasn't.

In fact, it's even less SF than Santiago; it's set in Africa, apparently in
the 20s or 30s, while Santiago ranges far and wide across the galaxy.
However, Santiago's setting seems to me to be essentially irrelevant to the
story; it could just as well taken place on a near- future Earth with a
not-too-strong world government. Adventures is basically a set of African
adventures, reminding me a lot of the Flashman books by Fraser.

So, while I agree that Santiago is 'dealing with some larger vision from
within the SF world', I can't put Adventures in that category.  I enjoyed
Adventures enough that I'm not too hacked at the misrepresen- tation, but
it brings up some questions:

1) Can anyone justify classifying Adventures as SF?
2) Is anyone else irritated when publishers label books incorrectly?
3) Does the author have any responsibility/ability to prevent this?
4) What do others think about Resnick?

I think Resnick is a good enough author that I'll keep buying his books,
regardless of how they are labeled, but, given my interests, I wish
labeling in general was more accurate: there's just too much good stuff out
there to waste time on drivel (like Circumpolar, by Lupoff, which I bought
because it looked like it would be amusing, and which wasn't).

Ned Danieley
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807 or 684-6942
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 22:24:44 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Adventures (was Re: New Science Fiction Writers)

>by Mike Resnick. Or perhaps the title is Adventures, A Science Fiction
>Novel, as that is how the jacket reads.

>I bought this book for two reasons: 1) I enjoyed both Stalking the
>Unicorn, and Santiago, and 2) since I didn't consider Santiago to be SF
>(or whatever) at all, I was curious to see if Adventures was.  It wasn't.

No, and Mike never claimed it was. Signet put the "Science Fiction
Adventure" on the front mainly because Resnick is considered an SF author,
and Signet wanted his readers to find it.

It is straight action-adventure comedy. 

>However, Santiago's setting seems to me to be essentially irrelevant to
>the story; it could just as well taken place on a near- future Earth with
>a not-too-strong world government.

Resnick tends to write about wide ranging subjects and wrap them up in a
Science Fiction setting. But it's definitely a wrapping, not the essence of
the story.

>Adventures is basically a set of African adventures, reminding me a lot of
>the Flashman books by Fraser.

That's one of the things Resnick was spoofing...

>1) Can anyone justify classifying Adventures as SF?

Nope. Mike doesn't try, either. He's more amused that the publishers would
have felt this necessary than anything else....

>2) Is anyone else irritated when publishers label books incorrectly?

Definitely. Get used to it, though...

>3) Does the author have any responsibility/ability to prevent this?

None whatsoever. Authors have no say on cover, blurbs, copyrighting, dust
jackets, or even the title of the book. It's a publisher screwup, pure and
simple.

>4) What do others think about Resnick?

Hell of a writer. Very nice person, too.

>books, regardless of how they are labeled, but, given my interests,
>I wish labeling in general was more accurate:

Agreed. This was a calculated attempt to make sure that Mike's "audience"
found the book. Interesting rationalization, but it doesn't make it right.
but this is publishing. You expected logic?

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date:     Mon, 18 Apr 88 10:08:53 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@almsa-1.arpa>
Subject:  Obnoxious phrases

dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
> by the way, if the phrase "What do you think this is, the twentieth
> century?" bothers you in the first part of the book, it will keep being
> obnoxious all the way to the end.

Reading this comment reminded me about another book, one I stopped reading
because the author used a phrase or term repetedly and it became so
unpleasant that I just couldn't keep reading. The author was Mack Reynolds,
and the book was titled, I believe, LAGRANGE FIVE. The offensive term was
"Wizard"; every third sentence, it seemed, had a character using that term
as an exclamation, in the sense of "Neat!" or "Swell!". It began to grate
shortly into the book, and the annoyance built up rapidly and I gave up
half-way through.

Anybody else have examples of such authorial indulgence in terminology or
language? It's the sort of thing an editor is supposed to catch and fix,
but it appears few editors do such editing any more... (Though I think that
Reynolds book dated from the sixties, so I can't cite it as evidence of
current editorial incompetence. :-)

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 16:57:19 GMT
From: kathyli@cory.berkeley.edu 
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

Three more.

Hasai in Diane Duane's _Door_Into_Shadow_, the snow dragon in Somtow
Sucharitkul's _The_Fallen_Country_, and the enchanted princess in Chelsea
Quinn Yarbro's _Baroque_Fable_.

Anybody know what's going on with Diane Duane?  I've been reading her
Prince-Ivan-the-Inexperienced stuff in the Dreamery, but when-oh-when are
the third wizard and door books coming out?

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 20:45:00 GMT
From: hallgrimsson@dssdev.dec.com
Subject: Friendly Dragons

Don't miss Patricia C. Wrede's "Talking To Dragons."  Don't let the
MagicQuest imprint put you off.  It's one of those rare things, like Rocky
and Bullwinkle, that work perfectly for both kids and adults.

Eirikur

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 20 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:

		    Art - SF Art and Artists (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 03:02:30 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: SF art

   My favorite artist would have to be Kieth Burdak.  The only work of his
that you are likely to have seen are his covers for Glen Cook's (plug,
plug) Black Company books, though he does exhibit his works at various
conventions.  Very stylish (and occasionally fun) work.

   There's a story here too, told to me by Glen.  When Glen first met Kieth
(they both live in St. Louis) Glen was working on the first Black Company
book.  They met at some function, and when Kieth found out that Glen was a
writer he asked if Glen had any input over the covers that were on his
books.  Glen said no.  Kieth said, well, if I painted something for one of
your stories, could you send it in with the story?  Glen said sure, and so
Kieth painted Soulcatcher.  Glen sent it in the publisher, and the editor
didn't like it.
   But, (you knew there had to be a but), while it was on the publishers
desk the book buyer for one of the big chains arrived to go over the list
of upcomming releases and place his orders.
   Now, book buyers for the chains don't *care* how good the story is, the
just want to know A: How well does this author sell, and B: What's the
cover look like.  So he's going down through the list of books, ordering
5,000 of this and 20,000 of that, and "OOOooo!! I'll buy 10,000 of anything
with that on the cover!"
   And that's how Kieth made his first book cover sale.  The Artist's Proof
print of that cover was in the art show at Deep South Con two years ago,
and it killed me that I could afford it.  I did manage to get a copy of
"Dr. Woo Woo Woo", the Time Lard, with his hypersonic headbopper.  :-)

vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 2 Apr 88 07:58:11 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: SF Art

vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>One of the things I like about Whelan is that it is obvious that he reads
>the books before touching his paint brush.  He was the first artist to
>paint McCaffrey's dragons with compound eyes.

No, he wasn't.  John Schoenherr, who did the original illos for the
McCaffrey stories in Analog, also had them with compound eyes.  In
addition, Schoenherr was careful to ensure that his illustrations were not
of "dragons", but of vaguely brontosaurus-like reptilians, as the books
make perfectly clear that McCaffrey is NOT talking about dragons in any
sort of literal sense, other than that they breathe fire.

>LEAST favorite artwork: Any of the "Generic Skiffy Abstracts", like
>Richard Powers's chrome lava-light stuff, that have absolutely nothing to
>do with anything except some mundane publisher's opinion that weirdness
>makes it sci-fi.

I would recommend watching a video that Powers made on the occasion of
being Artist Guest of Honor at some convention (Norwescon, I believe, but
it doesn't matter a whole lot).  In it, Powers does a painting "on demand",
talking about why he makes the choices he makes.  "chrome lava-light stuff"
is a serious underrating of Powers' skill and talent, both of which are
awesome.  Look closely at the cover of Phil Dick's THE TRANSMIGRATION OF
TIMOTHY ARCHER, and then try and tell me that Powers is a trivial artist.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren 
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 19:29:38 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Favorite Artists

>My all-time favorite is Kelly Freas - his art can make a mediocre story
>come alive through the character he breathes into his figures.

Hear, hear! I was waiting for someone to mention Kelly. I'm disappointed it
took so long.

>I'll take Don Maitz over Michael Whelan any time; Whelan's OK, but Maitz
>is better.

You can have Maitz. Lots of potential, lots of it unrealized. I have some
quibbles with Whelan at times, but his art is impeccable.

>For fan art, my favorite is Brad Foster.  Anybody subscribing to File 770
>or the Texas SF Inquirer will recognize his name and art instantly
>(although now that he's putting out the MechThings comic book, I guess he
>has to be considered a pro and no longer a "fan" artist).

Or, for that matter, in OtherRealms, too. I'm in fact hoping to do a
Special Brad Foster issue soon.

And even though his MechThings work is pro, he still qualifies as a fan
with his fan work. With any luck, he'll get himself another Hugo this year.
They make great bookends, I hear....

Another fan artist to keep an eye out for is Steven Fox. You'll also see a
lot of his work in OtherRealms. Now, if I can just keep the blacks from
washing out....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 18:05:22 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Favorite Artists

Somebody *nobody* ever mentions, but deserves much more notice:

MURRAY TINKELBERG.

(I may have the spelling wrong.)

He did a series of covers for Ballantine/DelRey that were absolutely
dynamite, notably for books by John Brunner (offhand, I recall his covers
for THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER, THE SHEEP LOOK UP, and STAND ON ZANZIBAR, but I
know there were others).  Notable for beautiful pointillistic work.

Also, has anybody mentioned Leo and Diane Dillon?  Remember their
incredible covers for the *first* series of Ace specials and almost
everything Harlan Ellison ever wrote?

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 88 06:16:12 GMT
From: milne@ics.uci.edu (Alastair Milne)
Subject: favourite SF art

Unfortunately I never seem able to find the names of artists I like, but I
can perhaps cite some work I've enjoyed, and maybe somebody can match it to
its creator(s);

For a period after the release of 2001, Clarke's books were published with
paintings of ships designed like the ships from 2001: roughly spherical
modules like the Aries shuttle or the command module of Discovery; or great
rings like the space stations'.  I've always found those designs very
elegant and graceful, and I'm wondering who did them.  For examples, "Tales
of the White Hart" and "Earthlight" both had printings using covers like
that.

A more recent trend in ship-painting -less precise and more abstract -- is
to have a certain hull style or proportion, and replicate it in much tinier
versions projecting from the main hull on long, slender struts.  Bright
running lights in odd places figure prominently in some of them.  I believe
they've adorned the covers of some of James White's books, such as "Major
Operation".  Again, I don't know the artist by name.

Neither Vallejo nor Frazetta do anything for me, and 2 or 3 collections of
their stuff, bought by my brothers, have done nothing to change my mind.  I
find them for the most part unrealistic, and even unable at times to handle
elementary proportions (e.g. a young girl's thigh heavier and longer than
her trunk).  While I'm certainly not averse to the occasional fantastic
painting, a steady diet of it is hardly to my taste.

Also, enduring my brothers' temporary love for "Muscle and Fitness"
magazine has at least assured me that extremely heavy muscular development
does not wind up looking as Frazetta or Vallejo would have it.

I don't feel much more kindly toward the Hildebrandt's, I'm afraid.  While
their command of form and proportion is usually better, they seem unable to
handle fine lines or detail: hair, for instance, comes out looking like
string or rope; hands and lips are thick and heavy.

Curiously, though, this seems to be more true recently than formerly.  One
collection of Hildebrandt material I've seen shows their early "college"
sketches, including "Cramming" and "Chemistry 101", which are very
entertaining.  But things like Allanon addressing the Ohmsford brothers,
from "Sword of Shannara", are very stiff and posed.
   Does anybody know whether they were responsible for the marvellous 
"Dingbat" series?  I always loved the Dingbats.

FINALLY (whew) paintings of Pernese dragons.  I think again I am about to
buck the general trend: I do *NOT* like the new artist who took McCaffrey's
sleek, graceful dragons and turned them into pterodactyls: spiky, bent, and
bat-winged -- only a rider could love them.  Somebody pointed out that at
least they now have the correct, complex eyes, and this is quite true --
but what a price to pay for them!  (I always wondered what McCaffrey meant
by the eyes' "whirling" -- a picture of that would be very interesting.)
   I feel the difference particularly because I so much enjoyed the sleek
grace of the dragons as they appeared on the first releases of Dragonflight
and Dragonquest.  I was so disappointed when I first saw White Dragon.

I do have one big question: what has happened to the quality of painting in
general?  Not that it's so terribly poor, but look at the marvels of the
15- and 1600's.  I don't ask that Rapheal be reborn, but surely, having
once learned such precision, such colour, such liveliness, we should still
be able to produce it on occasion.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 88 19:50:07 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: SF Art

leonard@.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> (in response to my statment of dislike for "generic skiffy abstract" book
>covers, especially the chrome lava-light stuff.)  Have you ever seen the
>artwork for both the "Skylark" and "Lensman" series during that time
>period? I can only describe them as an attempt at combining abstract art
>with representational art... (ie major failure).

Hmmm.  I first picked up a Lensman book because those covers somehow
appealed to me very strongly.  (I'd never heard of Doc Smith before.)
There's recognizable spaceships in there, but there's also the strong
colors and geometric shapes of (What's his name -- Molier?) No accounting
for taste, I suppose.  I don't care much for the new covers for the Smith
books.  (But I still love the Lensman stories!)  Does anyone know who did
those covers?  He isn't credited in the books.

I know this isn't consistent with my earlier statement about abstracts.  I
had forgotten about the Lensman covers.

(Note -- my statment about Powers's chrome lava-light stuff is not an
attack on the artisticness of Powers's painting, but a statement of my own
likes and dislikes.)

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 20:50:16 GMT
From: doug@eris (Doug Merritt)
Subject: Re: favourite SF art

milne@ICS.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
>I do have one big question: what has happened to the quality of painting
>in general?  Not that it's so terribly poor, but look at the marvels of
>the 15- and 1600's.  I don't ask that Rapheal be reborn, but surely,
>having once learned such precision, such colour, such liveliness, we
>should still be able to produce it on occasion.

The old masters were in the process of inventing techniques of perspective
and the like. Once these techniques were well understood, the most talented
artists of later eras moved on to new areas. This leads some people to
believe that the earlier techniques are now obsolete, and need not be
learned, and instead they try "doing their own thing" right off the bat in
the mistaken impression that this means they are being more creative and
artistic then they would be otherwise.

Also many artists do not have formal training, and hence do not understand
how to achieve the effects you are talking about, nor even the importance
of knowing them. (Sort of like that quote about the average man in the
street fancying himself as being intellectually on par with Einstein.)

My mother, a long time artist and art teacher, says that all of the best
artists of any era always put in long hard hours learning the techniques of
earlier eras (e.g. accurate perspective or "photorealism" etc) before they
do anything worthwhile with variations of their own. Cubism, for example,
with its grossly distorted forms and perspective, was not done by people
incapable of doing correct perspective. On the contrary, Picasso was
thoroughly grounded in such techniques, and Cubism "broke the rules" in a
very exact kind of way that is not possible to achieve by someone who
doesn't know the rules in the first place.

Also in any era there are always a few people who are really good at
something, like art, and many more who are mediocre or outright bad.
Sturgeons Law: "90% of everything is garbage". Unfortunately one need not
be a really good artist in order to get commissioned for a book cover.

As a side note, there has been some speculation that the gentle tones and
golden glows in those old master's works was not there originally but
rather is a side effect of the aging of the pigments. This does not, of
course, detract from the fact that their work was superb...it just means
that it may originally have been even more photorealistic than what we see
now.

One more thing...there *are* artists who use those traditional techniques
today; they're just not valued particularly highly in commercial art and
graphics circles.

Doug Merritt
doug@mica.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!mica!doug
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 88 11:35:21 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: SF Art

ugmalouf@sunybcs.uucp (Rob Malouf) writes:
> Phil Foglio...  also looks like someone out of one of his drawings.  I
> also noticed that Rowena Morrill (sp?) looks very much like someone out
> of one of her paintings.  Has anyone noticed artists who look like their
> art?

You mean apart from Michael Whelan, who shows up in his own art nearly as
often as Alfred Hitchcock did in his films?

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 20:16:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Apology (was: SF art)

While we're talking about bad cover artwork, I think the worst was for
Ace's Andre Norton covers in the 60's.  Ghastly.  I wouldn't read any
Norton until a friend got me read a library's hardback edition of _The
Space Rangers_ (I think it was), which I enjoyed greatly.

Oh, I also liked those old Lensman covers.  My fond memories of my first
reading of the series is bound with those covers (no pun intended), and
with such things as the typeface used and the smell of the books.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 13:46:45 GMT
From: garrow@gateway.mitre.org
Subject: Frank Frazetta

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but when my parents went to the
Frazetta museum in Pennsylvania, Mrs. Frazetta informed them that he was
terminally ill and unable to work.  This accounts for his not having
painted anything recently.

Stephanie Garrow

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 17:38:12 GMT
From: mary@bunker.uucp (Mary Shurtleff)
Subject: Paintings of Pernese Dragons

brooksj@umd5 (Joanne Brooks) writes:
>I wasn't disappointed when I saw the White Dragon for the first time, but
>I soon became sad at the fact that I could no longer see the dragons in
>the form that had first drawn me to them -- that old beat copy on the
>library shelf.
>
>Now, not even the libraries have the old copies anymore.  Is there
>anyplace that I can find a collection of the old art?  Who was the artist
>for the earlier covers of 'Dragonflight' and 'Dragonquest'?

The artist who is credited with the cover of my paperback copy of
_Dragonquest_ is Gino D'Achille.  I forget who did the cover of
_Dragonflight_.  The cover of _Dragonquest_ is the representation of the
dragon which best suited the way I had always imagined them.  While
Whelan's vision of them is nice, I found it to be a bit off-putting.  I
must agree that I like the older representation better.

Mary Shurtleff
...decvax!bunker!mary

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 01:39:02 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: SF Art

In a recent posting I commented on Frank Frazetta not having done anything
in the recent past.  I find that I have to retract that statement (at least
partially) since I found his artwork in the current issue of Mini-Micro
Systems (March 1988, page 87).

Advertising a "Heurikon VME processor", whatever that is.

I haven't quite figured out what a typical Frazetta barbarian figure has to
do with specialized computer systems (even if they _do_ have an NS32532
CPU, coprocessor, DMA, and shortsword), but it's clearly Frank's
work...complete with a 1988 copyright date and a credit in the text.

On second thought, the list of features Heurikon claims for their product
reads like an incantation or maybe the recipe for some Hell-spawned
witches' brew, so maybe it's not completely illogical to link a computer to
Frank's swords-and-sorcery artwork.

I think I've seen the basic layout of the artwork before, possibly on the
cover of one of Karl Wagner's Kane books.  Can anyone in NetLand confirm or
refute this?

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 20 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Rowley (3 msgs) & Schmitz (3 msgs) &
                       Steakley (2 msgs) & Zelazny & 
                       Author Search & Book Request & An Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 12:03:11 GMT
From: jfjr@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA (Jerome Freedman)
Subject: Re: Vangs

   I just read Rowleys _Vang:The Military Form_. It was interesting.  Sort
of neo-Lovecraftian space opera. I was fascinated by the Vang.  Has anyone
developed, intuited etc a coherent picture of the Vang - (ecology, biology
etc)

Jerry Freedman, Jr
(617)271-4563          
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 17:42:00 GMT
From: peter@prism.tmc.com
Subject: RE: VANG _The Military Form_

jfjr@mbunix.UUCP writes:
>   I just read Rowleys _Vang:The Military Form_. It was interesting.  Sort
>of neo-Lovecraftian space opera. I was fascinated by the Vang.  Has anyone
>developed, intuited etc a coherent picture of the Vang - (ecology, biology
>etc)

I think that the Vang's 'raison d'etre' is to gross out the reader, for as
a viable life form they'd be far more efficient if they bagged the parasite
stuff and went into farming. Now I'm sure that from the point of view of
cows, chickens, pigs and other livestock, we humans are among the most
ghastly of beings. I.e. we humans would seem rather Vang-like. However
there is an axiom in biology that states that any parasite that damages its
host will eventually, due to selective pressure, evolve into a
non-parasitic life form. Parasitism is generally inefficient. Pangalactic
parasitism is even less efficient, given the vast differences in biological
systems.

Now if the Vang were just simply interested in strip mining worlds for
their resources....well a case could be made that sentient space faring
creatures would maybe want to do this. I mean we had semi-sentient
creatures like James Watt and Anne Gorsuch who were the "Bonnie and Clyde"
of the EPA.  They were willing to go against the long term enviromental
interests of members of their OWN species for short term economic gain. Why
should alien space farers be any smarter. I mean just think of Pizarro(?sp)
and what he did to the Incas for a trivial ammount of gold. So I follow the
dictum that "I don't attribute to malice what can be explained with
stupidity".

Given the hideous expense of space travel I somehow doubt that creatures
like the Vang would live long enough 'evolution-wise' to ever become space
travellers.  Once you've developed the technology for space travel that may
take generations to reach another star, you would also know how to develop
technology to feed yourself, thus obviating the need for alien and possibly
pesky hosts.  I could just see the Vang analog of 'Mommy mommy' jokes;
'Hostmaster, hostmaster, I don't like Earthlings anymore!' 'Shaddap kid and
eat what's on the table!'

It would be a funny idea for a story/allegory where the alien equivalent of
Icelandic whale hunters are being hounded by the alien equivalent of
Greenpeace activists in their star faring equivalent of rubber boats.

I remember a story where humans on their exploration stumble upon a planet
that is covered with the ruins and artifacts of an advanced civilization
that was suddenly destroyed - a galactic Mycenae.  A further mystery is
that the planet is occupied by alien beings who for physiognomic reasons
couldn't have been the builders of that civilization.  The humans establish
contact with the aliens who appear to be only semi-sentient, and a
bureaucratic slug-fest between a faction that want to kill off these aliens
for real estate development purposes and a faction that want to declare the
planet a 'wild life' refuge.  In the end the 'Donald Trump'/James Watt'
faction looses, and the outcome is transmitted to Earth.  At this point the
aliens drop their simple-simon act and reveal that they are from the
Interplanetary Wildlife Fund or some such organization.  They had been
searching this sector of space for any surviving specimens of a race that
their ancestors had wiped out in a bitter war.  This race was known for its
ferocity and expansionism and looked a hell of a lot like the human
explorers, as a matter of fact the IWF aliens are convinced that the
present day humans are the survivors of that war.  Thus the IWF aliens are
happy to tell the humans that mankind has passed a test of sorts.  The
humans have obviously mended the evil ways of their ancestors by deciding
to place the 'simple' aliens under some form of protection.  Now that there
seems to be strong evidence of humans' good natureness, the IWF has decided
to make all human space a wild life preserve instead of seeking out and
eradicating all human life forms.  "Oh, by the way," the aliens say as they
depart, " these ruined cities, you are standing in, were built by your
ancestors...."

There is a saying that "Friends may come and go.  But enemies accumulate!"
that would definitely be true in outer space where no-one can hear you
become extinct.  So if I were a star farer I would 'tread' veeeeerrrrry
carefully, 'cause you'd never know who or WHAT you might annoy or
accidentally destroy.

Peter J. Stucki
Mirror Systems
2067 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA, 02140
617-661-0777 extension 131
peter@mirror.TMC.COM	
{mit-eddie,ihnp4,harvard!wjh12,cca,cbosg,seismo}!mirror!peter

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 17:50:35 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: VANG _The Military Form_

peter@prism.TMC.COM writes:
> I think that the Vang's 'raison d'etre' is to gross out the reader,

...it worked...

> for as a viable life form they'd be far more efficient if they bagged the
> parasite stuff and went into farming.

If you'll check the last portion of the book, you'll see that that is
*exactly* what they were preparing to do, once they got the planet sewed
up.

> - galactic parasitism is even less efficient, given the vast differences
> in biological systems.

There are hints that the Vang had been extensively self-modified in the
past so that they could handle that particular problem.
 
> Given the hideous expense of space travel I somehow doubt that creatures
> like the Vang would live long enough 'evolution-wise' to ever become
> space travellers.

Maybe their original host species were the ones that developed space travel
and later fell apart.

> Once you've developed the technology for space travel that may take
> generations to reach another star, you would also know how to develop
> technology to feed yourself, thus obviating the need for alien and
> possibly pesky hosts.

Or you can get around *that* problem by being very patient and working out
some way sleep through the boring parts.  They apparently had much faster
means of travel during their old war, and the discovered Vang craft had
been damaged.

Btw, what was the jewel-like object found by a couple of characters in the
book that Vang had left behind after some transformation?  I don't think
I'd like to have it anywhere near me after escaping from the system...

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 16:58:58 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>The Witches of Karres
>>Agent of Vega
>>
>>    (neither of these two last are in the same universe as the rest of
>>his stories).

Is _Agent of Vega_ related in some way to tWoK?  It's obvious that a sequel
was planned for tWoK, but since Schmitz is dead, I thought there was no
such book.  Could you fill me in on this?

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 21:23:52 GMT
From: randy@ncifcrf.gov (The Computer Grue)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>>The Witches of Karres
>>>Agent of Vega
>>>
>>>    (neither of these two last are in the same universe as the rest of
>>>his stories).
>
>Is _Agent of Vega_ related in some way to tWoK?  It's obvious that a
>sequel was planned for tWoK, but since Schmitz is dead, I thought there
>was no such book.  Could you fill me in on this?

   From my original posting, which you apparently didn't see but which
Zweig quotes: There was a sequel planned to tWoK, Schmitz didn't write it,
there is someone who is writing it that has some relation to the James
Schmitz society.  That's all I know.

   My personal opinion is that there is no relation whatsoever between
Agent of Vega and Witches; they strike me as being very different
universes.  But hey; the real world has contradictions worse than the ones
I see between those two books.  Maybe they are in the same universe.

Randy Smith
NCI Supercomputer Facility
c/o PRI, Inc.
PO Box B, Bldng. 430  
Frederick, MD 21701	
(301) 698-5660                  
Uucp: ...!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!randy
Arpa: randy@ncifcrf.gov

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 18:02:03 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz Enquiry

Yes, sorry to say, he died several years ago (late '70's?).  I remember the
Witches Of Karres and the Telzey Amberdon stories with great fondness.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 17:00:16 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: John Steakley (was  Re: Great Sci-Fi

>>I'd be curious if there is a sequel to _Armor_, for Felix is literally
>>left hanging not from a cliff but on to a spaceship.....
>
>John Steakley came here a couple of years ago and gave a talk; he didn't
>say anything about a sequel to Armor, but he did mention that he was
>working on a new book, called _Vampires_.  He read a chapter from the
>book; it was *excellent*.  Alas, I haven't seen it come out; he said it
>would be out in a year or so, and that was two years ago.  Anyone out
>there know what's going on? Chuq, are you there? :-)

I don't have a definitive answer, unfortunately. Armor was a DAW book that
came out last November. The 'normal' publishing cycle is between 12-18
months, so even if he had both books "in the can" it'd probably be a year
before you saw it. That makes it this fall. DAW also has a fair amount of
inventory looking for publishing slots last I heard, so I'd guess it'd be
even longer. When I see the fall announcements start coming in, I'll check
and see if it's mentioned.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 03:23:29 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: John Steakley (was  Re: Great Sci-Fi

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>John Steakley came here a couple of years ago and gave a talk; he didn't
>>say anything about a sequel to Armor, but he did mention that he was
>>working
>
>I don't have a definitive answer, unfortunately. Armor was a DAW book that
>came out last November. The 'normal' publishing cycle is between 12-18
>months, so even if he had both books "in the can" it'd probably be a year
>before you saw it.

Armor has existed in paperback form for at least 3 years. I know this
because a friend of mine was reading it (on the cover: "What Price
Impregnable Armor Against and Implacable Foe" is still emblazoned on my
mind) when I was a senior in high school -- during history class.

Maybe DAW has reprinted it? If it's DAW, though, ain't it just hack and
slash Adventure SF?

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 23:27:42 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos  (SPOILERS!)

******SPOILERS!!******

rikibeth@athena.mit.edu (Riki Beth Weiner) writes:
>Whaddya mean "anyone read it yet?" UNless the paperback just came out,
>it's been out in hardcover for MONTHS....

Months now, I guess.  It's a little hard to find.  I was prompted to post
my original article because some folks here were speculating on when it was
going to come out -- and I'd already purchased my copy.

>yeah, I read it, I love it but then Zelazny is one of my favorite authors
>so I'm not really objective...

True here, too.

>Surprised at the end? Why?

Well firstly, because I didn't expect Mask to be a mundane person, and
secondly, I sort of didn't expect it to be someone who'd already died in
the first book.

>I'd just like to see how he explains the ending consistently with the
>corpse in "Trumps"...No cheating now, Zelazny!

It's been done.  Cain went into shadow in the first series and killed a
shadow double, to provide a corpse when he faked his death.  Of course, he
couldn't know Rinaldo wass stalking him later, so I tend to believe his
second "death" was the real thing.

Recall that there was a doorway from Julia's apartment directly into the
Keep of Four Worlds.  I think it'd be simple for "Mask" to grab a Julia
clone out of shadow, and deposit her in the "real" Julia's apartment, then
set the dogs on her.  Gruesome...

Julia had to have learned her magic (remember the dog in the supermarket
parking lot?) from someone, and it looks like that someone was Jurt...
Although how the two connected, I know not.

Let's see...  Julia contacted Melville or whatever his name was -- the
minor Cabalist wizard.  He had a line to Jasara, who's husband was an Amber
prince who has had previous experience with the Keep of Four Worlds.  Ok so
far, but the only possible connection with Jurt I see is through Rinaldo,
(they shared similar goals with respect to Merlin once) and the signals
just weren't there.  I think it's going to be difficult for Zelazny to pull
it all together, unless I'm missing something.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 88 20:21:48 GMT
From: gypsy@c3pe.uucp
Subject: old Amazing Stories

Hi.  Does anyone out there have any old (pre-1960's) Amazing Stories,
Fantastic Stories, or other pulp mags lying around?  No.  I don't want to
buy them.  You think I'm crazy?!?  No, I want to ask you to read them for
me...

See, my father used to write for the things.  I always loved the story --
how when he was about 12 he broke a chair over his mother's boyfriend's
head and ran away and joined an SF writers' commune in some state I've
forgotten the name of... he roomed with Richard S. Shaver, says the guy was
*really* *weird*.  However, eventually he went to college, got a couple of
degrees, and had all the creativity mashed out of him.  He is now ashamed
of what he wrote, and he won't tell me any of his pseudonyms, but he does
admit that he occasionally used his own name... I guess he doesn't figure I
have a chance to get hold of any back issues that old.  Anyway, I would
like to find something -- ANY- thing -- that he wrote.  He's probably
right, it's probably loathsome stuff, but I want it for sentimental
reasons.  So what I want to know is:

Could anyone out there look through their back issues for the name Robert
Lee Tanner or any permutations thereof, and let me know the issue number
and the title of the story?  I would be forever grateful.  If you like I
will come to your house and personally fill your bathtub with the substance
of your choice.  Or something like that.  I reserve the right to make
reasonable substitutions.

Oh -- he might conceivably have used the names DeVaughn or Gaines.  Thanks
in advance!

..!decuac.dec.com!c3pe!gypsy

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 03:09:10 GMT
From: pv04+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: First contact, info wanted

A long time ago I read a really good short about first contact.

An Earth ship is out cruising in the middle of nowhere, and it comes across
a totally unknown ship/species. We get along great with each other, but how
can we head home, without guarantee that the other side will trail, or
track down the other ship?

The answer is reached, by tearing out all the important things from each
side's ship, then trading ships with each other. That way each side can't
attempt anything, since they are in a ship they barely know how to control,
don't know how to fully use sensors, etc....

I think I read this in an anthology....

ARPA: Philip.Verdieck@andrew.cmu.edu
      PV04+@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: r746pv04@CMCCVB
UUCP: ...!{harvard,ucbvax}!andrew.cmu.edu!pv04

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 14:37:09 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: First contact, info wanted

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) writes:
[ looking for a story about . . . ] An Earth ship is out cruiesing in the
>middle of nowhere, and it comes across a totally unknown ship/spieces. We
>get along great with each other, but how can we head home, without
>guarantee that the other side will trail, or track down the other ship?
[. . .]
>I think I read this in an anthology....

You probably did read it in an anthology.  It's "First Contact" by Murray
Leinster and I have a copy in _The Science Fiction Hall of Fame_ Volume I.
The _Science Fiction Hall of Fame_ (I have volumes I, IIa and IIb: are
there more?) is excellent stuff and should be on everyone's shelf.

Darren Leigh
362 Memorial Dr.               
Cambridge, MA 02139
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
mit-amt!dlleigh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 25 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Adams & Anthony & Asimov & Brust (3 msgs) &
                    Budrys (2 msgs) & Card (9 msgs) & Delany &
                    LeGuin & Lindsay

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 88 09:38 CET
From: <PSST001@dtuzdv1.bitnet>
Subject: Re: Adams

john@hpsrla.hp.com (John McLaughlin) writes:
>>I have heard that there is a new Douglas Adams Hitchhikers book (the
>>fifth?) can anyone confirm this?

chuq@sun.COM writes:
>I believe this is false.

I believe D. Adams wrote a fifth Hitchhiker book,
pretending it to be something completely unrelated to HHGTTG.

Most of the heroes from the 4-trilogy appear under different names:

Arthur Dent is Richard MacDuff
Ford Prefect is Dirk Gently
Marvin is the electric monk (my favourite character in the book)
Slartibartfast appears as Reg
etc.

I thought the book was only slightly better than So long and thanx...

Two or three books further down the hill and Adams can hardly avoid
being nominated for the John-Norman-Award.

Sigh|

Michael Maisack
Tuebingen, Germany

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 04:45:14 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony and Xanth

psanders@btnix.UUCP writes:
>In a recent article somebody (I can't find it anywhere so sorry for the
>lack of a reference) said that they enjoyed the Xanth series and were
>currently finishing Vale of the Vole - is this a new Xanth novel?? The
>last one I read was Golem in the Gears and I thought that was the end of
>it.

I have _Vale of the Vole_ by Piers Anthony.  My copy was published by Avon
Books, not Del Rey, as were my others.  On the back cover, the large print
claims, "The Start Of A Thrilling New Xanth Trilogy".  Guess you know what
that means.... :-)

Of course, both Del Rey and Avon list the Xanth series as Fantasy, so I
guess we shouldn't discuss it here...

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 20:40:56 GMT
From: heflin@cod.nosc.mil (Greg R. Heflin)
Subject: Re: "The Feeling of Power"

tmy6405@acf3.UUCP (Ted M. Young) writes:
>hes@ecsvax.UUCP (Henry Schaffer) writes:
>>"The Feeling of Power" is an old SF story (50's or earlier?) about a man
>>who re-discovered how to do arithmetic in a society which had become
>>completely dependent on its machines.  (Does anyone else remember this
>>one- and remember the author?)
>
>From what I recall (me and my 1K of brain-RAM :-), that story was written
>by Isaac Asimov.  I think the story had to do with the guy being able to
>calculate trajectories of missiles, etc., then again, I might be mixing
>this up with a similar story, so if anyone is *positive* I'd appreciate
>confirmation, or otherwise.

"The Feeling of Power" by Isaac Asimov was copyrighted in 1957 by Quinn
Publishing Co. Inc.

A very good short story!

It is about a society in a perpetual war with another country where neither
side understands math.  Everyone carries a pocket calculator and even for
simple math such as 5 + 6 they will need to use the calculator, even twice
in a row!  After a 'lowley' technician memorizes the addition and
subtraction tables(which in itself is a GREAT feat to their society), he
"discovers" some rules which allow him to do multipication.  The
'intelectuals' take this idea and run with it.  The politicians, encouraged
by the intelectuals, want to be able to put men in rockets instead of
computers(men are more expendable than computers).

"The Feeling of Power" is similar to "Brave New World" by Huxley.

Gregory

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 05:15:52 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) writes:
> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>To me it seems that the book is mainly Brust trying to say "Hey, I'm not
>>really a bad guy like Vlad".
>
> People -- even fictional characters -- have been known to change.  In
> "Teckla," we see Vlad starting to grow up.  Before, he was a "boy" (to
> use one of Mr. Brust's own favorite words).  Now, perhaps, he's becoming
> something more.

I was, myself, hoping that Vlad's development would be more along the lines
of a merging of his Eastern and Dragaeran selves, rather than a belated and
anachronistic liberalism based on a completely anachronistic and
implausible 19th century revolution.

Speaking of which:

That revolution in that society is about as likely as a libertarian
revolution in 1980's America.

> if Captain Kirk were to study Vulcan philosophy and renounce violence.
> All the "boys" would post articles complaining that they had "ruined" the
> character.

Anyone who cares enough about Star Trek to bother is certainly a "boy".
(Hey, what about "girls"?)

> In fact, it would make the character much more interesting and
> worthwhile.

He'd have to resign his commission, of course :->.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 17:28:07 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Taltos

Why?

In Taltos when Vlad first meets Morrolan, on page 22, "his hair was very
dark, straight, and long enough to cover his ears", and then on the very
next page "his hair was black, shoulder-length and curly and just a bit
neglected".

I'm kind of curious as to whether we're being set up for Morrolan's
appearance to be perceptually uncertain or this was just an editing botch?

George Robbins
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 17:08:25 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>I was, myself, hoping that Vlad's development would be more along the
>lines of a merging of his Eastern and Dragaeran selves, rather than a
>belated and anachronistic liberalism based on a completely anachronistic
>and implausible 19th century revolution.
>
>Speaking of which:
>
>That revolution in that society is about as likely as a libertarian
>revolution in 1980's America.

Bravo!  Back when Teckla first came out and the net was doing its "Omigosh
Steven Brust is just a *GAWD*" impersonation, I made this very point and
was (naturally) roundly denounced.  I'm glad someone else feels this way.

You can't simply pack up your 20th century notions and drop them into a
fantasy world.  The actions and philosophies should arise from context.
Teckla's only a particularly blatant gaffe of this sort.  It seems to be 
a fairly common error amongst the less-experienced writers.  Le Guin doesn't
make this mistake, for instance.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 02:27:40 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Algis Budrys

welty@steinmetz.UUCP (richard welty) writes (regarding Algis Budrys):
>He also has an excellent command of the english language,
>much, much better than that of the run-of-the-mill writer.

I think he has more a command of Roget's Thesaurus than he has of the
English language. This relates mostly to his columns in F&SF.  It always
seems to me that he uses 20-letter words that no one has ever heard of just
to try to awe the pants off his readers -- and he just sticks 'em in here
and there as adjectives. Like he went out of his way to get at least ten
20-letter words out of his Thesaurus per column.

All it does for me is get me pissed at him. I get *really* sick of looking
up words that turn out not to be in Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary
anyway. What -- I'm supposed to lug around an unabridged??

Does anyone else share this feeling?

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 11:16:39 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.edu (John Sloan)
Subject: Re: Algis Budrys

welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty) says:
> of years ago.  Tastes differ ... My favorite Budrys novels are
> _Who?_ and _Rogue_Moon_.  He's also written some rather striking short

Indeed. If Budrys wrote nothing at all worthwhile other than _Rogue_Moon_,
it would qualify him to be one of the finest writers in the SF (or perhaps
any) genre.

   "Remember me to her."

So much in four words.

John Sloan
Wright State University Research Building
3171 Research Blvd.
Kettering, OH 45420
+1-513-259-1384
+1-513-873-2491
CSNET: jsloan@SPOTS.Wright.Edu
UUCP: ...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 15:07:40 GMT
From: B1E@psuvma.bitnet (Me, of course!)
Subject: Orson Scott Card

Hello, I'm new to this newsgroup and I want to know if anyone out there
loves Orson Scott Card's work as much as I do.

I've read _Songmaster_, _Ender's_Game_, _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
_Hart's_Hope_, and _Seventh_Son_.

If anyone out there knows of other books by Card, please let me know.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 16:12:07 GMT
From: dep@cat.cmu.edu (David Pugh)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

B1E@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>I've read _Songmaster_, _Ender's_Game_, _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
>_Hart's_Hope_, and _Seventh_Son_.

_Red Prophet_, a sequel to _Seventh Son_.

I think it's out, but haven't found it yet.

David Pugh
...!seismo!cmucspt!cat!dep

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 16:37:10 GMT
From: short@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Lee Short)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

B1E@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>I've read _Songmaster_, _Ender's_Game_, _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
>_Hart's_Hope_, and _Seventh_Son_.
>
>If anyone out there knows of other books by Card, please let me know.

There's a book called _Wyrms_ which I haven't bought yet since (to the best
of my knowledge) it's not out in paperback yet.  And there are a great many
Card fans out on the net -- I first heard about him through the wide
discussion of him in SF-lovers in the fall.

Lee O. Short
Department of Information and Computer Science
University of California, Irvine
short@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
{sdcsvax|ucbvax}!ucivax!bonnie!short

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 05:56:18 GMT
From: smann@ihlpa.att.com (Mann)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

> If anyone out there knows of other books by Card, please let me know.

The first Card book I read was THE WORTHING CHRONICLES, which I found to be
very good.  In fact I no longer have a copy and would like to find one so I
can reread this book.

Sherry Mann
ihnp4!ihlpa!smann

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 04:23:28 GMT
From: sef@csun.uucp (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (really _Hart's_Hope_)

B1E@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>I've read _Songmaster_, _Ender's_Game_, _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
>_Hart's_Hope_, and _Seventh_Son_.

To go off on a tangent (sort of), which version(s) of Hart's Hope did you
read?  I remember reading (the original?) novella in some annual Best SciFi
of the Year collection, then purchasing a book a couple of years later with
the same title, but with an expanded-but-not-significantly-changed story.
Then, about 2 months ago, I saw HH in a bookstore, remembered that I liked
it, not remembering where I put my other copy, and I bought it.  After five
pages, I realized that it wasn't the same story as the other book, but it
had the same basic plot (God wasn't in the first two).

So, to make a long story longer, has anybody else done this, or is it time
for me to visit the local shrink?  Do you have the dates of publication for
the orignal book and novella?

I'm not complaining, you realize.  The later book did a *much* better job
of portraying certain elements (such as the callousness of the deities),
but it just threw me for a while...

Sean Fagan
CSUN Computer Center         
Northridge, CA 91330    
(818) 885-2790
uucp:   {ihnp4,hplabs,psivax}!csun!sef
BITNET: 1GTLSEF@CALSTATE

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 16:43:12 GMT
From: brookn@btree.uucp (Paul Francis)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

Wryms is out in paper-back from an English pub.  I got a copy from Change 
of Hobbit in Santa Monica.

This book is fantasy with a bit of SciFi, somewhere in between _Ender's
Game_ and _Harts Hope_ ( Hart's Hope ? ).  Good story that moves along
well, none of those 50 page spots of dreck you find padding out some books.
8-)

Paul Francis
brookn@btree 

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 22:19:16 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

>This book is fantasy with a bit of SciFi, somewhere in between _Ender's
>Game_ and _Harts Hope_ ( Hart's Hope ? ).  Good story that moves along
>well, none of those 50 page spots of dreck you find padding out some
>books.  8-)

It's a psuedo-science fictional telling of a traditional Fantasy quest.
It's also, from unnamed sources, an early, unsold Card manuscript that was
lightly reworked and sold now that he's a "name."

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 23:43:21 GMT
From: rwpratt@polya.stanford.edu (Robert W. Pratt)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

   Card has also written at least 2 other books I'm aware of.  A Planet
called Treason , which is/was available in paperback, is sort of
science-fiction stuff set on a different planet, but I read it about 6
years ago, so I'm no longer real clear on the plot.  Cardography is a
collection of short stories, all of which have been published in various
magazines according to the copyrights. The only edition of Cardography I
know of is the Hypatia Press trade edition I own, which is signed/numbered,
and was limited to 825 copies, of which 750 were signed and sold. I have no
idea what the hell happened to the other 75 copies ? Any suggestions from
the net? Anyway, while the book is probably hard to find, the stories are
all in one magazine or another, and may be in other anthologies or
collections as well.

Bob
rwpratt@polya.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 88 17:22:08 GMT
From: drich@bgsuvax.uucp (Daniel Rich)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

B1E@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
> Hello, I'm new to this newsgroup and I want to know if anyone out there
> loves Orson Scott Card's work as much as I do.
>
> I've read _Songmaster_, _Ender's_Game_, _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
> _Hart's_Hope_, and _Seventh_Son_.
>
> If anyone out there knows of other books by Card, please let me know.

  You still need to try _Worthing_Cronicle_ (originally published under a
different title, something about sleep), _A_Planet_Called_Treason_,
_Wyrms_, and many, many, short stories (I originally found out about Card
throught a story called "Unfinished Sonata".)  The only problem with the
stories is that to my knowledge, they have never been collected.  In order
to find them you have to go though old issues of Omni.
  Also, you might want to check recent issues of Issac Asimov's Science
Fiction Magazine.  They have been publishing more of his Hatrack River
stories.  These are all based in the same world as _Seventh_Son_.
  Needless to say, I am an avid Card reader.  (Have you tried David Brin?)

Dan Rich
(419) 372-6002
UUCP:  ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!drich
CSNET: drich@andy.bgsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 20:45:42 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Dhalgren

grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) says:
>Whatever you do, *don't* start with Dhalgren.  Follow the author somewhat,
>starting with Driftglass (short stories) or The Einstein Instersection,
>Nova and/or Triton and then consider Dhalgren or the Neveryona novels.
>
>Dhalgren has an earned reputation for being indigestible, however one may
>still find it interesting reading.  Check out the non-fiction Heavenly
>Breakfast for some sense of perspective.

_Dhalgren_'s reputation for indigestibility is rooted in its rather
idiosyncratic style.  The novel is complex, but I certainly didn't find it
indigestible.  It was my first Delany, and once I comprehended Delany's
literary game, I found it a wonderful one.  Delany is an author who demands
some actual _effort_ from his reader.  If you have a spare week sometime,
do _nothing_ but read _Dhalgren_.  I guarantee that the book will return
worth equal to the work you put into it.

In reading _Dhalgren_, remember that _you_ are participating in the
creative process as well.  Uncreativity is a limiting factor in the amount
of satisfaction one receives from such a book.

...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 22:51:33 GMT
From: KV9@psuvma.bitnet (Karen Kessler)
Subject: Re: Le Guin

"Winter's King" appeared in the collection _The_Wind's_Twelve_Quarters_.

Does anyone know of any other LeGuin stories that take place on or in the
same world as Gethen (Winter)?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 15:55:08 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: _A Voyage to Arcturus_

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>For folks who are interested in David Lindsay's work, Carroll&Graf will be
>bringing "Sphinx" back into print this summer. Since's it's basically
>impossible to find most of his stuff, this is a good sign.

Why is this a good sign?  Are his books other than _A Voyage_ worth
reading?  I've always heard that Voyage was his best book, and while I
found it passable, I wouldn't go to the trouble of looking up any of his
other work.  I thought Voyage was an interesting concept, not particularly
well executed.  Did you think it brilliant?
	
Scott Turner

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 25 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 139

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Eddings (2 msgs) & Farmer (3 msgs) &
                       Herbert (4 msgs) & Holland & 
                       Moorcock & Atlantis Story

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 06:04:45 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Why people don't question Errand

POLS040@ouaccvmb.BITNET writes:
>I don't find anything inherently strange about Errand's behavior and the
>fact that no one questions it.  Actually, they do.  Both Belgarath and
>Polgara say that they are going to have to have a talk with Errand but
>never seem to get around to it.  I see a spell working much like that that
>hid the Mrin Codex passage.  Not only that, I also see it at work in the
>Belgariad where Ctuchik (if memory serves me correctly) never questioned
>the origins of Errand.  For that matter, couldn't even remember how he
>actually came to 'acquire' Errand.

Zedar, not Ctuchik.  This is an excellent point.  Zedar remembers the event
and the mood very well, but somehow doesn't 'remember' where he was at the
time.  In fact, one gets the impression that Belgarath is aware, in a way,
that this is happening.  In the scene where Eriond says that he just talked
to the fires, let them know how he felt, and they just went out, there is
the following paragraph:

   Belgarath turned from the door, his face baffled.  "When we get out of
   here, that boy and I are going to have a very long talk about this.
   I've meant to do that about a half-dozen times, and every time I make up
   my mind, I get smoothly diverted."  He looked at Garion.  "The next time
   you talk to your friend, tell him to stop that.  It irritates me."

One thing that no one seems to have commented on is that whole Belgariad/
Malloreon series was plotted out in advance very carefully.  For example,
the Horse is clearly going to play an important role in the story, most
likely in the last book.  That pesky animal has been bouncing in and out of
the story since the third book.  As a minor instance, notice that in GOTW,
Errand reflects on Belgarath's skill as a sorceror, knows quite well how it
is done, and decides that he doesn't want to use sorcery.  Sure enough, in
the next book it is an important plot element that he has never used
sorcery.  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 20:12:00 GMT
From: MORGAN%FM1@sc.intel.com (Morgan Mussell)
Subject: Malloreon

kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)  writes (re: Eddings):
>  If anybody knows anything about Reed College, you'll know where he got
>all the different types of people and geographic areas, as well as the
>types of personalities. We have a class called Humanities 110 (all the
>freshman take it) which covers the time periods from Ancient Greece
>(Homer) to the Middle Ages (Dante)...

Just had to respond to this since I took those classes 20 years ago.  But I
don't buy the idea that Eddings is doing anything as trivial as creating a
mere allegory of period and place.  Bare facts have been churned into
something new in his imagination.  Just as the characters are painted in
larger- than-stereotype colors, so the nature of the lands is exaggerated
beyond the point where it's interesting to seek veiled references to
historical specifics.

BUT, I'm about 2/3 through "King of the Murgos", and I wonder if I see
fore-shadowing of Silk winding up at the alter.  To Urgit, he doth protest
too much ("run...if Zakath doesn't get you then Prala will").  Also
Ce'Nedra and Liselle's earlier conversation by campfire, when Ce'nedra
looks up sharply, but decides not to speak.  I figured it would be Liselle,
who's a match for him, but she just referred to him as "uncle".  I don't
remember that.  Is that a "real" relationship, or a mocking term?

Any odds on Silk getting housebroken?

Morgan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 14:55:24 GMT
From: pwc@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA (Patrick W. Connors)
Subject: Re: Gor (was: Re:New Science Fiction Writers)

seth@ctr.columbia.edu (Seth Robertson) writes:
>Now lets start flaming of all the other authors who have written
>"perverted" material.  P. Anthony has written some *really* porno stuff,
>and Heinlein-- geez, he advocates "swinging" and incest (brother-sister,
>mother-daughter, etc)

     The above pale in comparison to _A Feast Unknown_ by Philip Jose
Farmer.  Do not read this book if you don't have a strong stomach or are
easily offended, as seems to be the norm in this group.

Pat Connors

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 21:06:20 GMT
From: mackey@cornu.ucsb.edu (Bruce A. Mackey)
Subject: World of Tiers series

I have been wondering for some time if Philip Jose Farmer ever did/will
write a concluding book for his World Of Tiers stories (Maker of Universes,
The Lavalite World, etc).  Any info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 21:02:05 GMT
From: brookn@btree.uucp (Paul Francis)
Subject: Philip Jose Farmer

pwc@mbunix (Connors) writes:
>     The above pale in comparison to _A Feast Unknown_ by Philip Jose
>Farmer.  Do not read this book if you don't have a strong stomach or
>are easily offended, as seems to be the norm in this group.

A very good book !!!!!!

The copy I had was from Playboy Books, with _Image of the Beast_ ( the
second part of the story ).

The story starts with a detecive watching a 'snuff' film of his partner
being tortured to death.

Paul Francis
brookn@btree 

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 20:42:00 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>No, not correct.  That's what they said in the movie, not the book.
>
>The key word here is "navigator".  According to the book, FTL space flight
>was possible, but very dangerous.  The spice gave the navigator a limited
>prescience which allowed him/her/it to see the consequences of different
>routes so that he/she/it could choose a safe one.  Later the Ixians
>invented a mechanical substitute and the spice was no longer needed.
>
>The movie was full of gross errors, such as "fighting with sound" and
>ornithopters without wings.  I liked the sandworm effects and some of the
>scenery but I don't believe the movie came anywhere near to doing the book
>justice.  Of course, doing Dune justice in a two hour movie would be quite
>a feat.

Thanks to everyone who's helped to clear up my confusion. But it was not,
as many of you suspected, due to the movie. I barely saw the thing, and
wondered how they could butcher such a great book so badly. I don't
remember (in the books) any explanation of where the ability to fold space
came from, but I had assumed that it could not be done at all without the
aid of the spice. Several people have pointed out that there were other,
less effective, drugs before melange was discovered. Again, I don't
remember them, but after being told so many times, I'm willing to accept
it.

Actually, it makes sense. The law following the Butlerian Jihad forbade the
creation of a machine in the image of a human mind. So it was quite
acceptable to use a device to actually fold space, as long as it was guided
by a human (or near-human) mind. Later, the Ixians, who had always skirted
the laws concerning technologies, just went public with some of their
acquired knowledge.

Thanks again. No more answers needed.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 10:22:29 GMT
From: sqkeith@csvax.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Dune Paradox

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>    I'm nearly finished with _Chapterhouse: Dune_, and an apparent paradox
> has been nagging at me. The old Spacers Guild navigators were dependent
> on spice essence in order to "fold space" and reach their destinations,
> correct? However, the planets in Herbert's universe seem to be so widely
> separated that they can't be reached without folding space. So Arrakis
> (Dune) couldn't have been discovered without Guild navigators. But before
> Arrakis was discovered, there was no spice, and hence no navigators. Is
> this a paradox? Or was there a device, similar to the Ixian navigating
> devices, that was used prior to the Butlerian Jihad, and the navigators
> arose only after the Jihad? Was it ever stated, or do we have to assume?

It is only the film of Dune that states Guild Navigators use the spice to
fold space. In the book, navigators use the spice to ignite linear
prescience trances so that they can FIND the safe way from A to B at
translight speeds.  The Butlerian Jihad banned the devices that would have
performed this function.

It was much later, in God Emperor and Heretics.. that the idea of No-ships,
no-fields and folding space came into it - apparently due to new Ixian
devices - Butlerian limitations were being thrown aside at that stage in
the stories.

>    While I'm at it, how the heck would they discover the ability to fold
> space due to spice essence?

Search me! Perhaps it would be instructive to research the history of the
uses of the Opium poppy for the same reason.

>    Lastly, does anyone have any sort of chronology for the events in the
> Dune series? According to the movie, Paul Atreides became the Kwisatz
> Haderach in 10,551 A.D., but I've never seen any date mentioned in the

Its 10,191 (based from the first year of the Guild monopoly on space travel
- - not A.D.) but who's counting...

> books. I think God-Emperor is a few centuries later (this was stated, but
> I've forgotten), and Heretics and Chapterhouse are 4 to 6 millennia down
> the road.

There is a 'history' of Dune and events in all six books, even describing a
few hundred of the several thousand Duncan Idaho's that The Tyrant Leto II
had fished from Tleilaxu axolotl tanks as companions. Unfortunately, I
never got around to buying it and I can't remember the title. It wasn't
written by Frank Herbert though. If I find it I'll send its classification.

Keith Halewood
Janet: sqkeith@csvax.liv.ac.uk
UUCP:  ...!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!sqkeith
Internet: sqkeith%csvax.liv.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 15:59:14 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Doing justice (was Re: Dune Paradox)

bicker@hoqax.UUCP writes:
>They shot enough film for 8 hours.  That's what they released in
>Europe--and 8 hour mini-series.  Now if we can just get them to show it
>here.

This seems to be another myth spawned by the net. While a lot of extra film
was shot, it hasn't been edited.

The film that is out on videotape here is the same one as in the cinema
here, which is (I assume) the same one as in the cinema in the US.

There may have been some developments in getting the extra editing done, my
information is a bit old, but if there have been I haven't heard of them.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 88 05:37:15 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Lynch's Dune

ACSH@uhupvm1.BITNET ("James N.Bradley") writes:
>I read an interview with Herbert some time back where he said that several
>(2-4) hours were chopped from the movie and it was his hope that they
>(i.e.  DeLaurentis Group) would put the extra hours BACK into the movie
>and try to sell it as a mini-series.  I believe that it was implied that
>this re-edit was being considered at that time and there was at least a
>possibility of it happening.

Your information is correct, but dated.  Lynch's cut of the film was
supposed to run about 4:45, but the release was at 2:40.  After waiting in
vain for the full version to come out, I hoped it would happen at least for
the video release.  Alas, alack, the video release runs about >2:20<,
elimating yet >another< 20 minutes!  In other words, the version most
people have seen is missing an entire 2 1/2 hours or so...

I thought Lynch did a decent job (from what little we can see of it) and
would very much like to see his cut of the film.  But don't hold your
breath...

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 01:07:52 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Cecelia Holland book list

A few months back someone asked me for a list of other books written by
Cecelia Holland, the author of _Floating Worlds_.  At that time I posted
those books mentioned in an ancient paperback copy of _The Firedrake_.

Fiction:

1966	The Firedrake
1967	Rakossy
1968	The Kings in Winter
1969	Until the Sun Falls
1970	Antichrist
1971	The Earl
1973	The Death of Attila
1974	Great Maria
1975	Floating Worlds
1977	Two Ravens
1979	City of God
1981	Home Ground
1982	The Sea Beggars
1984	The Belt of Gold

For Children:

1969	Ghost on the Steppe
1970	The King's Road

Note:	as far as I know, only _Floating Worlds_ is science fiction, the
others being "Historical Novels" of one sort or another.

George Robbins
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 16:19:20 GMT
From: dachurch@athena.mit.edu (Douglas A. Church)
Subject: Moorcock's Songs

A point made in the comic mentioned below was that Moorcock co-wrote two
books with Michael Butterworth, one called _The Time of the Hawklords_, the
second title the writer had forgotten, featuring the members of Hawkwind as
characters, and the letter writer seemed to believe Elric was in the
second...  Got me, I just don't know

*** WARNING: THE REST OF THIS POSTING IS ABOUT MUSIC BY MICHAEL MOORCOCK

(as to the question about Moorcock music...)
Michael Moorcock wrote songs and performed with the Deep Fix & Hawkwind.
  He also wrote songs for Blue Oyster Cult 
  (Didn't "Black Blade" ever catch your attention...)

Now, as to the actual songs, here is a summary of an 2-page listing that
appeared in First Comics adaptation of Elric: The Vanishing Tower in issues
2 and 3 (out of 6).  They were published oct/dec of 1987....

They are all from letters sent to First, printed in the back of the comic.
If lots of people want the gory word by word detail then I guess I can scan
it and send it to people... send me e-mail if you *really* want more detail
than this provides...

Moorcock co-wrote the following BOC songs
  "Black Blade", off _Cultosaurus Erectus_
  "The Great Sun Jester", off _Mirrors_
 and, of course, "Vetran of the Psychic Wars", from _Fire of Unknown
Origin_

Moorcock did much more with Hawkwind..
  wrote songs for 
    _Warriors at the Edge of Time_, (United Artists, 1975)
      "The Wizard Blew His Horn" and "Warriors", vocals
      "Standing at the Edge", "Kings of Speed", author or co-author
    _Sonic Attack_ (RCA Records, 1981)
      "Sonic Attack", "Psychosonia", "Coded Langauges", vocals
      "Lost Chances", co-wrote, perhaps
    _Friend's and Relations_, volume one (Flicknife records, 1982)
      Two Deep Fix songs appear here 
         (Deep Fix is a story by MM in _The Time Dweller_)
      "Good Girl, Bad Girl", and "Time Centre", vocals
    Hawkwind & Co: _Last Chance EP_ (Flicknife, 1983)
      "Dodgem Dude", a Deep Fix song, originally released in 1980
    _Chronicles of the Black Sword_, (Flicknife, 1985) 
         [I have this, It's OK]
      only the song "Sleep of a 1000 Tears" is co-wrote by Moorcock, rest
      is just hawkwind..
      The album is "Moorcock approved", though, and thanks him. 
      It tells a small part of the story of Elric (Suprise Suprise)
  Many other Hawkwind albums exist on which Moorcock did not play a
  credited part, Whether you like them or not is not related to this
  posting, so I will just say I like them but that is my opinion and has
  little to do with MM.

Thanks to Lonnie Pool and Tim Murphy, the writers of the two letters which
I wrote a synopsis of to get the above (and below).

Apparently he has a solo album out, _New Worlds Fair_, but neither the
letter author nor I have seen it.

I, personally have seen a bootleg of Hawkwind Live in which Moorcock sings
2 or 3 Deep Fix songs.. but when I returned to buy it it was gone (for you
Cambridge types, try Second Coming Records.  They're much too expensive,
but I can't find hawkwind much of anyplace else, and certainly not
bootlegs).

Moorcock himself is a Blues Guitarist, but he seems to be credited with
only vocals on the various albums and tracks mentioned above, perhaps on
the solo album...

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 16:29:23 GMT
From: csrdi@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (Janet: rick@uk.ac.ed)
Subject: Re: WANTED: Atlantis novels

John Jakes' Mention My Name In Atlantis. An amusing parody of the
'barbarian in civilisation' genre set in the last days of Atlantis, seen
through the eyes of Hoptor, a 'wine merchant'. (His story and he's sticking
to it.) Well, I thought it was funny anyway.

Rick
Janet: rick@uk.ac.ed
BITNET: rick%uk.ac.ed@UKACRL
ARPA: rick@ed.ac.uk
UUCP: rick%uk.ac.ed%ukc@mcvax

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 26 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:

		Books - Adams & Farmer & Johnson & Kurtz &
                        Rowley & Schmitz (2 msgs) & Tarr &
                        Book Request

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 88 20:05:04 GMT
From: fleishman-glenn@cs.yale.edu (Glenn Fleishman)
Subject: Review of Douglas Adams biography (was Re: New Douglas Adams?)

Neil Gaiman's biography of Douglas Adams -- called appropriately enough
"Don't Panic" in large, friendly letters on the front -- attempts and often
succeeds in describing Adams and his work in the style of Adams himself.
Gaiman has a nice twist of phrase that imitates but is not a copy of
Adams'.

The book sets out with several goals: to present a coherent picture of who
Douglas Adams really is and what he is like, to describe his writing
background, to clear up mysteries about the Hitchhiker's Guide books and
why certain bits are included in certain places and left out in others, and
to cursorily examine why exactly the books, radio series, etc., are
popular.

Gaiman comes through on all points to some extent. Certainly his interviews
with Adams and the details produced are the most extensive I've ever seen.
His research is impeccable, and his ability to get all sides of given
conflicts amazing. But there is a tendency to tone down conflicts.  For
example, Adams collaborator on the fifth and sixth parts of the radio
series was a friend named John Lloyd, who would later become a producer for
BBC Light Entertainment Department. Adams originally asked Lloyd to
collaborate on the book, then later realized that he would rather and
should do it alone. Lloyd was perturbed, but the conflict is not fully
discussed. They are quoted talking most like proper English gentlemen, and
the more direct questions -- is it Adams who gave the book the twists in
certain places, and introduced certain elements, and was Lloyd actually
counterproductive, etc. -- are not asked or shrugged aside.

However, as a general survey of Adams career, and a surface insight into
the man, the 182 page book functions well. We are, however, given the glib
Douglas Adams, with biographical niceties, not probing anywhere below the
level of quotes about an author on the fold of a book jacket.

I recommend it.

(Also included, by the way, are appendices containing much cut material,
the Dr. Who plot scenario Adams wrote from which Life, the Universe and
Everything was developed, and the pilot plot outline for Hitchhiker's radio
series. Also scattered throughout the book are cut pieces of dialogue every
bit as priceless -- well some not quote so priceless -- as the material
actually put in the various sources.)

(Another footnote:
Gaiman also implies -- as does Adams -- that new HH projects have been in
the works for a long time, waiting for certain exigencies. An HH film has
been worked on for years, as well as a new series, records, etc.  No news
in the book, however, about dates or exact plans.)

Glenn I. Fleishman
FLEGLEI@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 00:11:01 GMT
From: mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: World of Tiers series

mackey@cornu.UCSB.EDU (Bruce A. Mackey) writes:
>I have been wondering for some time if Philip Jose Farmer ever did/will
>write a concluding book for his World Of Tiers stories (Maker of
>Universes, The Lavalite World, etc) Any info is greatly appreciated.

   I find it unlikely. If you look at any of the series that Farmer has
been reponsible for you'll find that *none* of them have a concluding book
(at least in my knowledge). This includes the Riverword series: although he
claims to have concluded that series the last book still left some
questions up for grabs. He *may* one day write another book in the series,
but the odds are extremely low that he will ever write a concluding book.

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 88 19:48:55 GMT
From: duane@anasazi.uucp (Duane Morse)
Subject: TREKMASTER by James B. Johnson (mild spoiler)

Time: many hundreds of years in the future

Place: Bear Ridge, an earth-like planet

Introduction: Bear Ridge is a "lost colony" which has recently been
rediscovered. Sharon Gold is the Federation representative on the planet
who will recommend whether Bear Ridge or a sister planet becomes the newest
Federation council member. Bear Ridge's monarch, T.J. Shepherd, wants the
membership in order to catapult the planet back into the mainstream of
technology. Many on the planet fear that Shepherd is moving too fast. And
what do the Webbines, native intelligent beings, think about all of this?

Main storylines: assassination plots, friendships, learning about and
experiencing the "Trek", Webbine involvement.

SF elements: interstellar Federation, alien life forms.

Critique: This is a very enjoyable book. It is written from the perspective
of the main characters, all of whom are interesting in themselves. There
are a number of interweaving conflicts which keep the pace rather brisk
throughout. First there are Shepherd's machinations to win the coveted seat
on the Federation council. Then there's Shepherd's son, who doesn't agree
with his father on very many things. And there's Shepherd's capable
bodyguard/jester; what's his story? The monarch of the sister planet is
behind a number of disruptions; and if that were not enough, there's local
unrest, both due to conflicts between the church and the state and as an
aftermath of recent wars.  Adding spice to all of this is the question of
the Webbines and the "Trek", the latter being a hazardous expedition to
visit a small Webbine colony, a journey required of propective monarchs and
fatal to most.

Rating: 3.5 out of 4.0 - a real keeper.

Duane Morse
(602) 861-7609
...!noao!mcdsun!nud!anasaz!duane

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 21:41:00 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: What will happen to Camber

jac@elm.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing) writes:
[With regard to Katherine Kurtz's "Deryni" books]
>Another question that I've been wondering about.  If you look at the
>familiy trees in the Camber series you note that Evaine didn't live too
>long after the end of that series.  Rhys died (near Christmas time?) in
>917 (I'm doing this from memory so forgive me if I get the dates a little
>messed up), the child was born (I don't remember the third kid's name)
>shortly thereafter in either 917 or 918 and Evaine died in 918.  What
>happened?  Also, what happened in 948?  Joram, Camlin, Cathan's remaining
>son (name escapes me), and Evaine's son (the healer, name also escapes me)
>all die in 948, but the female healer (Evaine's last child) lives to be
>well over 80.  Just curious.  Any speculation?

   My bet is that most of the people you mention are victims of one or
another of the Deryni purges. Toward the end of _Camber the Heretic_,
things are really starting to fall apart for the Deryni. And I believe that
in the chronologically later series, it is mentioned that in addition to
general persecution, there was an actual attempt to exterminate the Deryni.
As for the one who survived, probably he had had his Deryni talents
"severed", and managed to stay hidden.

   Several months ago, someone on the net reported that Kurtz's next
trilogy was going to pick up at the end of the Camber trilogy. The reported
trilogy title was "Javan's Year", and the first book was to be called "The
Harrowing of Gwynedd". I assume it was referring to Cinhil's oldest son,
who only lived to rule for a year. (Of course, at the same time, someone
else said they thought "Childe Morgan" was going to be next.) Anyone heard
anything about this one?

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 18:39:00 GMT
From: peter@prism.tmc.com
Subject: Re: VANG _The Military Form_

I liked your comments; I missed the part about the VANG going into farming,
because towards the end of the book I was in 'Fast-forward' mode.

As far as the jewel like object, I suspect that its main purpose is to
allow the creation of a sequel. (Gosh! I've become cynical in my old age!)
Tangentially, I've been told that at the end of the movie ALIENS, when the
survivors are in their hibernaculi, the ship is dark, and the credits roll,
one can hear the sound of an alien-pod opening at the very end.

Seriously, I found the book to be fun, it's been a long time since I had
read such a classic version of an 'Evil bug-eyed monster from outer space'
novel.

Though periodically the Vang would outdo themselves with heinous disgusting
and gratuitous acts on innocent Earthlings, to the point where I would say
"Puhleeeeaaaaazzze! Gimme a BREAK!".

In any case I started remembering bio lectures on parasitism, and generally
what happens evolutionarily speaking is that former parasites may evolve to
the point where the host needs them, or at least isn't harmed by them.

Viruses seem to be the exception to the rule. 

I remember that the underlying reason for the inefficiency of parasitism is
game theoretical in nature.  Cooperation is far more efficient than
competition.  I recall that at MIT or CALTECH, some researchers sponsored a
contest to find the algorithm that would win the most in repeated
prisoner's dilemma like games against other algorithms.  Thus two programs
had the choice of 'shafting' or 'cooperating' with each other like the two
captured prisoners.  If one prisoner 'squeals' on the other, and the other
remains silent, then the stool pigeon goes free and the other prisoner gets
10 years.  If both remain silent, then both go free.  If both squeal then
both get 5 years.  ( I may have gotten the 'payoff'/punishments a little
wrong - it's been a while.)

In any case one might think that the 'screw-you-sucker'(SYS) algorithm
would be the most successful - think again.  It turned out that in the long
run the 'tit-for-tat' algorithm won.  If the TFT program came up against
another, it would start out being cooperative.  If the other program
shafted it, then it would retaliate in the next turn.  If the other program
would then be cooperative, then the TFT program would also cooperate in the
next turn.  Thus, the TFT approach would minimize the gains made by a SYS
program. If the TFT program came up against a 'turn-the-other-cheek' (TTOC)
program, it would always be cooperative.

In the cosmic scheme of things the VANG have a SYS , the Earthlings have a
TFT approach (more or less). I would have thought that given their earlier
fight with the frog-like aliens, that they would have learned something on
a genetic level, for then they were almost driven to the edge of
extinction.

Of course, genetic learning takes time.  Given our own situation with
nuclear weapons, genocidal tendencies, and bone headed dogmatism we have a
lot to learn ourselves and very little time. Thus I would think that even
the Vang could intellectually learn that what they were doing was rather
stupid.  So it would have been interesting if there had been a faction of
Vang that would have advocated a more non-parasitic way of life. But then
again it would have been a far different book.

Peter J. Stucki
Mirror Systems
2067 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA, 02140
617-661-0777 extension 131
peter@mirror.TMC.COM	
UUCP: {mit-eddie, ihnp4, harvard!wjh12, cca, cbosg, seismo}!mirror!peter

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 17:52:21 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>There was a sequel planned to tWoK

Are you sure?  I'd have enjoyed such a sequel as much as anyone, but I did
*not* walk away from "The Witches of Karres" under the impression that such
a sequel was planned.  We weren't left in the middle of the story; we were
left at its end.  Sure, other stories could have been placed in the same
universe and using the same characters, but the fact that the book didn't
end with the words "happily ever after" doesn't imply that this was either
intended or desirable.

We are so used to seeing sequels to anything which sells that we tend to
forget that the trilogy is not a divinely legislated form.  And that an
ending which doesn't wrap up *everything* does not necessarily imply "to be
continued".

From the standpoint of my reading pleasure, I would have much rather seen a
sequel to "The Witches of Karres" than the relatively uninspired "The
Eternal Frontiers".  But from the standpoint of auctorial integrity I'm
willing to believe that Schmitz may well have meant to end the story where
he did and not return to it.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 20:33:42 GMT
From: randy@ncifcrf.gov
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>>There was a sequel planned to tWoK
>	
>Are you sure?  

    Well, it's like this.  When I was at Windycon in 1984 (I'm pretty sure
that's the convention in question; I may be off by a year or so) I went to
a meeting of a group call "The James Schmitz Society".  This is a group
that exists for the purpose of helping and honoring new authors; they were
giving an award to David Brin that year (the reason I place this in 1984 is
that I remember that they decided to give him the award before it was
announced that he had won the hugo, and they needed to make a point of this
else people would think they were just jumping on a successful bandwagon).
One of the leaders of the society whose name I forget was writing a sequel
to _The Witches Of Karres_ called _Venture of Karres_.  She had spoken with
Schmitz' widow on the subject, and Schmitz' widow had said that the
material she had written had an uncanny resemblance to what Schmitz had
written for the same novel (sequel to tWoK) before his death.  This is the
basis on which I claim that Schmitz had planned a sequel to tWoK.
Obviously this is not what one can call hard fact (even my memory is
getting a little fuzzy, and the information was already third hand), but
it's maybe a little better than "The book seemed to end this way . . .".  I
did think that Schmitz at least left the possibility wide open at the end
of his book, so the above information didn't suprise me.  Who can tell?

Randy Smith
NCI Supercomputer Facility
c/o PRI, Inc.
PO Box B, Bldng. 430
Frederick, MD 21701	
(301) 698-5660                  
Uucp: ...!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!randy
Arpa: randy@ncifcrf.gov

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 88 13:32:33 GMT
From: duane@anasazi.uucp (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE ISLE OF GLASS by Judith Tarr (mild spoiler)

Time: 12th Century

Place: Parallel Earth

Introduction: Brother Alfred was content to remain at St. Ruan's Abbey,
where he had been practically all 80 years of his life, but when an
ambassador from the Elvenking is forced to recuperate at the abbey from
injuries he received from one of King Richard's vassals, Alfred takes on
the ambassador's mission and goes to King Richard's court; blood calls to
blood, and Alfred is one of the Fair People too (which means, among other
things, that he looks like a very young man though he is as old as the
abbot).

Main storylines: Brother Al's struggle between the contemplative life he
used to lead and thought he desired, and the action and intrigue at the
court; temptations of the flesh from Thea, another of the Fair People;
skirmishes; plots to eliminate Alfred.

Fantasy elements: Elves with shapechanging, healing, and other powers;
familiar but different English history.

Critique: The story is excellent, starting out slow (not too slow) and then
picking up the pace. It never really races; rather, it moves along briskly,
keeping the reader's attention so centered that it's hard to put the book
down. The main characters are very likeable, and one roots for Alfred as he
tries to convince the king to make peace with the neighboring kings.  The
book is put together very well, blending action, adventure, fantasy, inner
and outer conflicts, friendship, and love in perfect proportions. This is
volume 1 of "The Hound and the Falcon Trilogy", called so after the two
primary non-human shapes Thea uses. I'm going to hunt for the other volumes
immediately.

Rating: 4.0 out of 4.0 - ranks with the best.

Duane Morse
(602) 861-7609
...!noao!mcdsun!nud!anasaz!duane

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 04:50:24 GMT
From: leonard@agora.uucp (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Story/book request

Several years ago, I read something at the insistence of a roommate. I want
to re-read it as a phrase from it keeps popping into my head.

"Mother loves you."

All I remember is that it *may* have been by Michael Kurland, and that in
the book the phrase above was *not* something you wanted to hear! (Not
*quite in league with "Cthulhu R'lyeh fhtagn", but close)

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 26 Apr 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Zelazny (4 msgs) & Dragons (2 msgs) &
                       Chartered Accountants (4 msgs) &
                       Humans vs. the Galaxy (2 msgs) &
                       Protected Species &
                       Upcoming signings at Change of Hobbit

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 16:19:20 GMT
From: dachurch@athena.mit.edu (Douglas A. Church)
Subject: Sign of Chaos

(two cents of answers and n dollars of questions on the Amber scene...)

Perhaps Delwin and Sand are the ones who taught Julia/Mask everything she
knows....  After all, as Amberites, they don't just sit around and watch
The Brady Bunch on TV when they get mad at the family.

Who do you think Corwin is... I.E. he can shape change.. do you think we've
already met him?  I agree that he probably will have some new power due to
his new pattern, though.

Anyone have any ideas on Coral... Where she went, whether it was voluntary,
preplanned, or some sort of kidnapping or accident...

How about Ghost... Is Corwin involved there...

But most of all, when will Merlin stop being such a wimp...

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 16:45:40 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>There used to be a saying that if you show a sword on the wall in the
>first act of a play that you have to use it by the third act.

Except that we all know Zelazny is fond of leaving swords on every wall
that happens along.  I don't think he's used them all.
    By the way, this is not just a joke.  If anyone can list a few (or even
one) of Zelazny's red herrings (the redder the better), I'd be interested
in seeing a list.  I'm not talking about things that he obviously intends
to do something about in the future, which are more properly dangling
threads.  I mean anything suggestive he's left in a book somewhere that
never has and doesn't look like it will come back into play.  (Please post,
don't email, since I haven't read all of his work, and note spoilers
accordingly).

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 16:26:38 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos (Spoilers for Blood of Amber)

dachurch@athena.mit.edu (Douglas A. Church) writes:
>Who do you think Corwin is... I.E. he can shape change.. do you think
>we've already met him?  I agree that he probably will have some new power
>due to his new pattern, though.

I was going to ask "can Corwin shape change?"  After all, he hasn't done it
yet that we know of.  He fooled Dworkin once, but only because Dworkin
though he was Oberon shape-changed to look like Corwin.

But let's assume he can...  I *did* wonder why Bill (the lawyer) was
sitting in the cafe in Amber dressed in Corwin's colors.  Anyone else
notice that?

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 16:22:13 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos  (SPOILERS!)

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>There used to be a saying that if you show a sword on the wall in the
>first act of a play that you have to use it by the third act.  We already
>know that long-lost Delwin and Sand aren't pleased with the Amberite
>aristocracy.  Expect to see them in Act Four.

I would have believed that of anyone BUT Zelazny.  He puts swords on the
wall, guns on the table, mysterious telegrams at the door, seemingly just
for local color.  I've read everything by him that's still in print, (that
I could find at bookstores and libraries) and still haven't been able to
predict which way a given story is going to go.  The Amber books are among
the most linear and least obtuse of his stories, but still.  This *is*
Zelazny.  Look up "red herring" and there he is.  :-)

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 11:16:28 GMT
From: menolly@thoth6.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Friendly dragons

wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (William Linden) writes:
>A juvenile series about R. Dragon and his friend Susan includes DRAGON IN
>DANGER and THE DRAGON'S QUEST among others. (R. stands for his True Name,
>which is only revealed to those who can be trusted with the power over
>him.)

   I greatly enjoyed the children's books about R. Dragon when I read them
years ago.  Unfortunately, I can't remember the author's name either (time
for a trip to my old childhood public library.  I can probably remember the
exact shelf position better than I can the name!)
  
   Don't forget Chrysophylax Dives in Tolkien's FARMER GILES OF HAM.  Not
entirely friendly or trustworthy, but at least somewhat reasonable.
       
Pamela Pon
menolly@bartleby.berkeley.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 08:25:56 GMT
From: rw@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Richard White)
Subject: Re: Request books with friendly dragons

Try also _The Dragon Lord_ by Peter Morwood. The dragon (Ykraith????) is
not exactly a friendly lovable soul (as those in Dragonflight etc.......)
but neither does it go about flaming everyone in sight. More of a neutral
than friendly, but a good book nevertheless.

Try the other books in the series, _The Horse Lord_ and _The Demon Lord_
first, to set the scene

Richard White

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 21:52:59 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Chartered Accountants

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>I can't think of a single story about the drama of chartered accountancy.
>Many people have written about the drama of science.  A few (LeGuin and
>Lem come to mind) have written masterpieces on the subject.  Is it
>possible that science is just more interesting than accountancy?

   _Accounting For Murder_ by Emma Lathen.  The victim is an accountant,
indeed an accountant's accountant.  He is, alas, strangled with adding
machine tape as he sits uncovering a particular ingenious fraud.  Of course
the detective is the vice president of the world's third largest bank.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 16:18:49 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Chartered Accountants, was Benford Bashing

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>I can't think of a single story about the drama of chartered
>accountancy...

There was also a short story (does anybody recall the title and/or author?)
about a pair of wizards who wanted their son to also grow up to be a wizard
but, to their despair, he was determined to become an accountant.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 20:53:19 GMT
From: clark@csvax.caltech.edu (Clark Brooks)
Subject: Re: Accountants

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>I can't think of a single story about the drama of chartered 
>accountancy. ...

The stirring drama of the Crimson Permanant Assurance springs to mind.  I'm
not entirely sure of the wording of the title - it was a vignette in some
movie. At sail on the public accountant sea, or some such.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 06:27:47 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Crimson Permanant Assurance

clark@cit-vax.UUCP (Clark Brooks) writes:
>The stirring drama of the Crimson Permanant Assurance springs to mind.
>I'm not entirely sure of the wording of the title - it was a vignette in
>some movie. At sail on the public accountant sea, or some such.

From Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life", of course.  Easily the single
funniest sketch in the movie.

It starts out with "Before our main feature..." and it's not for several
minutes that they start springing understated absurdities on you.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu
schwartz@psuvaxg.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 19:56:00 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Humans vs. the Galaxy

DCHPC@uottawa.BITNET ("Michael R. Margerum") writes:
>There are some others whose titles and authors I have forgotten:
>
> In "There will be War V", a short story which is a sort of "High Crusade"
> in reverse, where starfaring aliens with Renaissance era technology
> attempt to conquer 20th century Earth.

I remember that one -- it was in Analog a while back, by Harry Turtledove.
It was a wonderfully preposterous premise, handled very well.

(For those who haven't read the story, called "The Road Not Taken", as I
recall, 

*** POSSIBLE SPOILERS ***

the premise is that there is some very simple low-tech way to make a
reactionless drive and warp drive.  It is so simple, in fact, that every
civilization in the galaxy invented it in their equivalent of our 16'th
century.  Except us, of course.  Unfortunately, this technology does not
lead to anything else; it can only move things from place to place very
fast.  But once it's invented, all research efforts go into it, and not
into things which would otherwise lead to our kind of high-tech.

So the aliens land, and attack us with flintlock black-powder
muzzle-loaders...  and find out about the rate-of-fire of an M-16, among
other things.  Great story!)

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 10:39:34 GMT
From: c9c-bm@dorothy.berkeley.edu (Eric Sadoyama)
Subject: Re: Humans vs. the Galaxy

There was a short story that I read years ago called (I believe)
_Danger:_Human_ that you may be interested in.  A man is taken from Earth
by aliens and imprisoned, and eventually escapes using wile, guile, and
sheer orneriness.  A memorable scene was where he (the man) spends months
corroding and weakening the steel bars of his cage by spitting up
hydrochloric stomach acid onto the hinges...

Eric Sadoyama
University of California at Berkeley
c9c-bm@dorothy.berkeley.edu
{hplabs,pacbell,ucbvax}!well!sadoyama

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 05:06:47 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Protected Species (Was Vang)

peter@prism.TMC.COM writes:
>I remember a story where humans on their exploration stumble upon a planet
>that is covered with the ruins and artifacts of an advanced civilization
>that was suddenly destroyed - a galactic Mycenae.  A further mystery is
>that the planet is occupied by alien beings who for physiognomic reasons
>couldn't have been the builders of that civilization.  The humans
>establish contact with the aliens who appear to be only semi-sentient, and
>a bureaucratic slug-fest between a faction that want to kill off these
>aliens for real estate development purposes and a faction that want to
>declare the planet a 'wild life' refuge.  In the end the 'Donald
>Trump'/James Watt' faction looses, and the outcome is transmitted to
>Earth.  At this point the aliens drop their simple-simon act and reveal
>that they are from the Interplanetary Wildlife Fund or some such
>organization.  They had been searching this sector of space for any
>surviving specimens of a race that their ancestors had wiped out in a
>bitter war.  This race was known for its ferocity and expansionism and
>looked a hell of a lot like the human explorers, as a matter of fact the
>IWF aliens are convinced that the present day humans are the survivors of
>that war.  Thus the IWF aliens are happy to tell the humans that mankind
>has passed a test of sorts.  The humans have obviously mended the evil
>ways of their ancestors by deciding to place the 'simple' aliens under
>some form of protection.  Now that there seems to be strong evidence of
>humans' good natureness, the IWF has decided to make all human space a
>wild life preserve instead of seeking out and eradicating all human life
>forms.  "Oh, by the way," the aliens say as they depart, " these ruined
>cities, you are standing in, were built by your ancestors...."

   The story you are thinking of is _Protected Species_ by Fyfe.  Your
memory fails you in most of the particulars, however.  There is a
possibility that you have muddled in some of the ideas of _All the Way
Back_ by Shaara.  Both are classic Astounding stories from the palmier
Campbell days.

Protected Species: Humans are just expanding into interstellar space.  They
are settling a new world with ancient ruins.  At the time of the story
there is a major construction effort going on.  The protagonist of the
story is an inspector for the equivalent of the Dept of the interior.

Mostly everything is fine.  However he discovers that the construction
roughnecks are hunting a rare and rather shy wild ape.  He is concerned
that they might be the degenerate descendents of the creators of the ruins.
This is never resolved, but he eventually rules that they are a rare, and
hence, protected species with out reference to possible sentience.

There is no 'bureaucratic slugfest'.  The project manager would prefer that
the men's amusements not be restricted, on the grounds of the effect on
morale.  However his opposition is more on the order of, "Show me a good
reason and I will issue the orders".  The decision that the apes come under
the protected species category is satisfactory.

In a short snapper at the end, one of the 'apes' reveals itself to the
inspector and explains that it is a watcher from an organization that has
been watching humans for a long time.  It explains that the time has come
to make contact with a few selected individuals to make watching easier and
less dangerous.  The inspector has been selected because his decision
parallels theirs.  There is a reference to a sense of shame at what
happened between their species and ours in the past, and an expression of
pleasure at seeing us return to our old grounds.  I don't have a copy of
the story at hand, but the final line is a little snappier.  The inspector
is obviously a little puzzled, and the Myrb (their own name of the 'apes')
says "You don't understand about the ruins.  They are not ours.  They are
yours."

As you see, the thesis of the story is that we are the losers in an ancient
war and that we are (unknown to ourselves) a protected species.  Humans as
an agressive species is not a theme of this story at all.  It is, however,
very much a thesis of -

All The Way Back: In this story two explorers find a habitable world.  The
humans have been searching the space around Earth for several hundred years
and have found no planets at all.  When they land on this planet they are
met by a representative of the Galactic community.  Said representative
explains that this world is being refurbished after a great war and that
the original inhabitants will be returning soon.  He then offers to explain
to the explorers about the desert that they are living in.

Once upon a time, circa 35,000 years ago, there was a great, brilliant, and
warped race called the Antha.  Eventually the Antha and the main Galactic
Federation come into conflict.  The Antha hold off the rest of the Galaxy
single handedly until the Federation develops and use a weapon which Nova's
the suns of the worlds of the Antha and destroys their worlds.  The
decision has been made that the Antha are to be exterminated.  At the end
of the history lesson it is revealed that we humans are the Antha,
presumably descended from chance survivors and that we have come all the
way back.  [Most species take millions of years to develop civilization.]
The explorers are killed, per the general ban.

In the end, the spokesman for the Federation discovers that there are no
clues in the explorers ship as to our location, and that, despite its
primitiveness, it has solutions to technological problems that have never
been solved by the Galactics.  He confirms to himself the rightness of the
decision to exterminate -- the Antha were proud and evil.  He worries that
in a short time we have come all the way back without knowing who we were,
and that this time we may come equipped to rule.  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 88 03:57:46 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.uucp
Subject: Upcoming signings at Change of Hobbit

Here's a pair of upcoming autograph sessions at Change of Hobbit bookstore
in Santa Monica, CA. For more info dial 213-Great-SF.

John Shirley: May 14 from 2 to 4PM. Signing his new books Eclipse Penumbra
(Questar) and A Splendid Chaos (Franklin Watts).

Orson Scott Card: May 21 from 2 to 4PM. Signing Seventh Son (Tor) and its
sequel Red Prophet (Tor hardcover).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 28 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:

		Miscellaneous - Hugo Nominations (4 msgs) &
                                Important Dates in Science Fiction &
                                Hwang/Glass SF Dramatic Production

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 17:05:18 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

Well, the deadline for Hugo nominations is rapidly approaching, and having
spent part of the weekend putting mine together, I thought I'd make some
comments on the special "Other Forms" category.

For those that don't know, the Nolacon people decided to create a special
category to handle material that wasn't able to be cleanly dealt with in
the existing Hugo categories. The result was the "Other Forms" award.

The definition of "Other Forms" is any Science Fiction or Fantasy related
item that doesn't fit into any other category. The specific things they're
trying to deal with are books like the Hugo winning "Science Made Stupid"
which won a hugo as an art book in the non-fiction category; "Dark Knight"
which lost as an art book in the non-fiction category and the likelihood of
both Watchmen (another graphic novel) and Harlan Ellison's "I, Robot"
script both needing a home in the upcoming Hugo elections.

Unfortunately, I think the Nolacon people blew it. The wording is very poor
and exceptionally ambiguous, and they're probably going to screw up
Watchmen with the best of intentions, since they've already announced it'll
end up in that category despite the fact that word counts show that it
qualifies as a novel (text type, pictures excluded) under the standard
rules.

Worse, "Other Forms" has the potential for amazing amounts of abuse. Think
about it. It's going to be a lightly nominated category -- I expect that
we'll see a large number of votes for "I, Robot", "Watchmen" and then there
will be three random things that happen to have gotten more votes than all
the other random things.

What kind of random things qualify? Well, before I get into that, I should
point out that I've followed Tom Galloway's lead and nominated "Watchmen"
under the novel category, and included a letter clarifying why I did that
and why I felt "Other Forms" was inappropriate. I suggest others who
haven't sent in their nomination forms yet and are planning on nominating
Watchmen do the same. I doubt it'll sway the committee into putting
Watchmen where it belongs, and it is definitely too late to get rid of the
"Other Forms" category, but it'll help Nolacon figure out it blew it and
hopefully keep this category from becoming permanent in its current form.

I nominated two entries in "Other Forms" -- A.J. Budrys for his book review
column in F&SF and Thomas Easton for his book review column in Analog. Both
write genre related columns, and the columns don't qualify for any other
category (the non-fiction category is for book-length materials, so a
collection of columns published would qualify, but the columns themselves
don't.)

After mailing off my ballot, though, I started thinking about the
implications of "Other Forms". It's such a wide open category that it
basically cries for abuse.

Like "Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction magazine"? You can nominate Dozois for
Best Professional Editor, but not the magazine. So nominate it for "Other
Forms" as best genre fiction magazine.

How about nominating Clarion as the best genre related writing conference?
Or Writer's of the Future for best genre related writing contest? They all
qualify based on the wording of the award?

How about L. Ron Hubbard? He'd qualify as a genre related dead author. The
Dianetics folks have been trying to buy him a Hugo for years. Nolacon may
have given them an edge.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I suggest folks take a look
at the definition of the "Other Form" category, and if you agree with me,
do the following:

   Write Nolacon and tell them that you feel that "Other Form" is poorly
   tought out and poorly worded.

   Find your favorite obscure genre related person/place/thing and nominate
   it for "Other Forms". If they get lots of different, weird nominations
   that they have to validate and track, maybe they'll rethink the category
   and realize that they've opened up a Pandora's box.

And one discussion I'd like to start up is what to do with the Hugo's that
might improve this situation. Should Graphic Novels be specifically added
to the Best Novel category, irregardless of words? Should they have their
own category? Nothing at all?

Are there any other categories that need adjusting? My feeling is yes. In
fact, since I'm opening my mouth, I'll put down the changes I'd recommend
if I were running the Hugos, just to start the dialog.

   Delete the Best Semi-Pro magazine category. Or at least re-name it the
   Locus Magazine Appreciation Award. (Note: this is NOT an attack on
   Locus, just a realization that the only magazine that even comes close
   to deserving the award. It's a one magazine category with no
   competition, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

   How many Hugos does Locus have to win before people decide that this
   category has outlived it's purpose? (And, for the record, I nominated
   Locus for the category, will vote for Locus for the award, and I hope
   Charlie continues to win Hugos until they fix the categories. If he
   removes himself from competition, the only thing that'll happen is some
   second-rate publication will win it, and that only because Locus chose
   to not compete).

   Fan awards. The fan awards shouldn't be handled at a Worldcon. The
   Worldcon voters simply aren't faanish enough to make intelligent
   choices, so voting is very light. My suggestion is to move the voting
   and administration of the fan awards to a faanish convention, such as
   Corflu, and have the awards given out at Worldcon. This won't cheapen
   the fan awards, but it will make them more representative of the group
   they're trying to reward.  
        If sharing ownership of the Hugos isn't politically possible, then
   we're better off getting rid of them.

   Best Professional Artist. Shift this from a nomination of an artist to
   nominations of specific works. This would reduce the tendency of a
   well-known artist get votes on name value even in a year when their
   output is small or not up to snuff.
      This has the potential, of course, of either splitting an artist's
   vote between a number of works. It also has the potential for letting a
   really hot artist (such as Michael Whelan) taking multiple positions on
   the final ballot. My feeling on both of this is "great" because we're
   now dealing with the art directly rather than taking an indirect route
   by voting for the artist. It also makes it harder for someone to live on
   their laurels and would be more likely to open the category up for newer
   artists.
      I'd also rename it "Best Professional Artwork". Any piece released in
   a given year, or published on a cover of a book that fits the
   qualifications of the fiction awards would qualify.

That's my ideas. What do you think? If there's good discussion on this,
I'll put it into the Letter Column of the next OtherRealms so I can drop it
off to the NolaCon and Noreascon folks so they can see what you think (and,
as an aside, folks printed in the lettercol get free copies of the printed
version of OtherRealms, for what that's worth....)

chuq 

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 23:12:46 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Other Forms (posting for a Tom Galloway)

Chuq writes:
>And one discussion I'd like to start up is what to do with the Hugo's that
>might improve this situation. Should Graphic Novels be specifically added
>to the Best Novel category, irregardless of words? Should they have their
>own category? Nothing at all?

Heck, this opens up almost as large a can of worms as the Other Forms
category.  Namely, how do you define a graphic novel?  The first pass would
probably be something like "A work of fiction in which the narrative is
substantially conveyed by either illustrations or a combination of
narrative and illustrations such that removal of the illustrations would
substantially effect the narrative itself" The somewhat convoluted wording
is necessary to rule out the novel which merely has text illustrated.

But the big question is how one further defines this.  Should there be a
difference between the Far Side and Bloom County comic strips and an issue
of, say, X-Men?  What about something like Cerebus, which has been
announced to be a 300 issue "novel", but which is made up of a number of
self-contained stories which are further divided into individual issues.
Like other serialized works, is it not eligible until the year in which
issue 300 is printed is considered?  Or are the trade pb partial
compilations eligible for the year they're published? Are individual issues
eligible?

This is only the start. The other problem is, is the Worldcon ready yet for
a graphic story Hugo?  To be honest, it's only in the last few years that
there's been material out that I'd consider worth giving a Hugo for the
most part. Does this track record justify making this a permanent category
yet?

Also, there'd be certain to be argument against this based on awarding
comic books rather than "real" fiction.  Comic book fandom has pretty much
split off from sf fandom in the last 20 or so years.  It's unclear whether
the idea of a graphic story Hugo is politically feasible.

>Delete the Best Semi-Pro magazine category. Or at least re-name it the
>Locus Magazine Appreciation Award. (Note: this is NOT an attack

To be honest, while I don't have a copy of the regs under which a semi-pro
mag is defined, I suspect that the only reason Locus is in this category is
due to its circulation being just under the 10,000 which SFWA (yes, I know
SFWA has nothing to do with Hugos) defines as a pro fiction magazine.  It's
clear to me that Locus is a professional magazine with no semi- about it;
the thing provides the sole or vast majority of livlihood for several
people. It pays contributors. To me, that means it's a fully pro mag, not a
semi-pro.  There were good reasons for breaking the semi-pro out from fan,
but I don't think either Locus or SFC belongs here.

While Chuq's suggestions for the Fan Hugos make sense to me (but I'm not a
fanzine fan, so take anything I say with a can of Morton's), the two
problems I see with them are first the politics and possible legal problems
of having Hugos administered by another group, and also the idea that this
might serve to make the awards even more cliquish.

As for the Artist/Artwork Hugo, I agree as well, but why limit it to one
category? Why not Best Book Cover, Best Magazine Cover/Other Location, and
Best Interior Illustration, to bring artists to parity with the 4 different
writing awards?  However, the problem of graphic story artwork would crop
up here like the problem of graphic story writing is cropping up in the
writing awards unless care is taken.

Finally, one note for those unfamiliar with Hugo regs and the process for
changing them. Since the rules are defined in the WSFS (World Science
Fiction Society) Constitution, the means of changing them are to amend this
Constitution.  WSFS business meetings are held at Worldcons, and are open
to any Worldcon member. However, in order for an amendment to pass, it must
be passed by two consecutive WSFS business meetings.  As an example, if an
amendment establishing a Best Graphic Story Hugo was passed in New Orleans,
it would also have to be passed next year in Boston to be in the
Constitution, and the first time the category would be on the ballot would
be 1990 in Holland, unless, as they did when the Non-Fiction Hugo has been
voted in for the first time in 1978, Noreascon exercises its right to add
for its year only a category to the Hugos by adding the category under
consideration so that people can see what sort of nominations its likely to
get.

tyg
galloway@clsepf51.bitnet
galloway%clsepf51.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
tyg@mit-eddie.uucp
tyg@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 09:33:12 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Fan awards. The fan awards shouldn't be handled at a Worldcon. The 
>Worldcon voters simply aren't faanish enough to make intelligent
>choices, so voting is very light. My suggestion is to move the
>voting and administration of the fan awards to a faanish convention,
>such as Corflu, and have the awards given out at Worldcon.

Never work.  It'd get laughed right out of the con.  The folks who attend
Corflu aren't the type of folks who give a flying potato about awards, for
the most part.  At least, the ones I know from previous Corflus (I, II, and
soon to be V) don't, and I believe them to be a pretty good cross-section
of fanzine fans in general.  Fannish awards made somewhat more sense when
fanzines were the common communications medium among fans across the
country, as they were until the late sixties.  And they made sense when
they were being voted on exclusively by fans (as, again, they were until
the late sixties, when Worldcon attendance started soaring).  As it is now,
though, they make no sense at all, and haven't for so long that most of the
fanzine folk I know of think that the whole idea of awards for fanzine
publishing is somewhat suspect.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 20:28:08 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.uucp
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
> Well, the deadline for Hugo nominations is rapidly approaching, and
> having spent part of the weekend putting mine together, I thought I'd
> make some comments on the special "Other Forms" category.

"Other Forms" also includes filk, and as Chuq noted, the rules are fuzzy in
the extreme.  The folks at Off Centaur have compiled a partial list of
eligible filk for this year.  The compilation was done by burning the
midnight 'phone lines.

There are some of us that are nominating "Dawson's Christian" (by Duane
Elms) for the "Other Forms" Hugo.  I've seen books that weren't as good get
one.  This filk song is definitely deserving.  If you haven't heard it--get
a copy of "Free Fall and Other Delights" as fast as you can.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 15 Apr 88 14:25:42 GMT
From: cipher@mmm.uucp (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Important Dates in Science Fiction

I'm compiling a 1990 calendar, and I'd like to make entries for important
science-fictional events.  Could people please send me dates that they
consider important in science and science fiction?  Such things as:

   Publication dates of landmark works.
   Birthdays of authors & scientists.
   Release dates of classic sf movies.
   First broadcasts of important SF TV series.
   Dates of conventions to be held in 1990.
   etc.

Please e-mail to the address shown below...

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!esdlab!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 15:40:41 GMT
From: psc@lznv.att.com (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Hwang/Glass SF dramatic production

[From the "On Stage" column, Enid Nemy, New York Times, 22 Apr 88:]

What Are Those Things?

There are all kinds of productions coming in later this year but few of
them are likely to be as, shall we say, offbeat as "1,000 Airplanes on the
Roof", a science-fiction music drama.  The score is by Philip Glass, the
composer for "Einstein on the Beach" and "The Photographer" [and the Doris
Lessing play produced in Texas last year, and discussed then in this
group], the text is by David Henry Hwang, whose "M.  Butterfly" is
currently on Broadway, and the scenic designer is Jerome Sirlin, who has
created sets for everything from opera to Madonna's "Who's that Girl" world
tour.

The production will have its premier in Vienna in July on move on to West
Berlin; Brisbane, Australia; the American Music Theater Festival in
Philadelphia, and a national tour before arriving in New York.  And if you
want to know what to look forward to, Mr. Glass says it's not a play,
opera, or musical but rather a monologue placed in a context of music and
images.  What's the monologue about?  "One man's encounters with U.F.O.'s,
often terrifying and sometimes revelatory," he said.

[Send your unused commas to Enid Nemy, c/o NYT Comma Fund, 229 W. 43rd St.,
New York, NY 100somethingorother.  He seems to be running low.]

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{ihnp4,cbosgd,allegra,rutgers}!mtune!lznv!psc
psc@lznv.att.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 28 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Conventions (3 msgs) &
                                  SF vs Literature (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Apr 88 01:04:26 GMT
From: dd@beta.uucp (Dan Davison)
Subject: Anglicon

			ANGLICON
		      May 6-8, 1988
		   Hyatt Seattle Hotel
	    	       Seattle, WA

Guests of Honour:  	Paul Darrow 
		   	Stephen Greif (Travis 1)

Fan Guest of Honour:  	Ryan K. Johnson (Writer/Director/Producer; 
		    	Seattle International Films)
					
ANGLICON is a British/Media Convention, run by Anglophiles, the first of
its kind in the Great Pacific Northwest, featuring: BLAKE'S 7, THE
PROFESSIONALS, DR. WHO, ROBIN OF SHERWOOD, SAPPHIRE AND STEEL, THE
PRISONER, THE AVENGERS, SHERLOCK HOLMES, and others.

For information on memberships write:  ANGLICON
				       TLPO Box 8207
				       Kirkland, WA 98034-8207
or call:  (206)-367-7060

Tentative Programming: Space City Casino, Masquerade, Neutron Dance, Two 24
hour, non-stop video rooms, Dual Track Paneling, Fanzine Library and
Reading Room, 24 hour (non-alcoholic) Hospitality Suite, Fannish Olympics,
Two Live Role-Playing Games, Autograph Sessions with the Guests of Honour,
Open Typewriter Sessions, Electronic Trivia Tournaments, Bulwer/Litton
Writing Contest, Dealer's Room, Art Show, Filk Singing.

Presented by Seattle's 7 and The Society of the Rusting Tardis.

Dan Davison
Theoretical Biology
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Los Alamos, NM 875545
dd@lanl.gov (arpa)
dd@lanl.uucp(new)
..cmcl2!lanl!dd

------------------------------

Date: 11 Apr 88 05:42:40 GMT
From: baycon@hpcupt1.hp.com (Baycon 88)
Subject: BayCon '88 Announcement

BayCon '88 will be held at the San Jose, California Red Lion Inn May 27-30,
1988.

BayCon is The San Francisco Bay Area Regional Science Fiction and Fantasy
Convention, and is held Memorial Day weekend each year.

The convention boasts six (6) tracks of parallel programming: 3
simultaneous panel discussions, readings, 24 hour a day Japanese Animation,
and 24 hours a day of current movies on BCTV (BayCon television).  In
addition, we have a gaming room which is open 24 hours a day (with breaks
to get ready for the next day :-) We also have a large dealer room, art
show, masquerade, parties, an SCA demo, special late night cinemascope
movies (Buckaroo Bonsai, selected shorts, a special Ray Harryhausen movie
- -- yes, cinemascope), a special showing of a very popular late night movie
(complete with a live cast) followed by several monster movies.

Writer Guest of Honor: SOMTOW SUCHARITKUL
Artist Guest of Honor: TOM KIDD
Fan Guest of Honor:    JOHN MCLAUGHLIN
Toastmaster:           RON MONTANA

Other guests include: Chris Claremont, Ray Feist, Michael Kaluta, Mike
Glyer, Dean Ing, Richard A. Lupoff, Bjo Trimble, and many more.

Special features: 
    Star Trek: The Next Generation 
       Rick Sternbach - illustrator
       Mike Okuda     - graphic designer

    Bay Area Skeptics:
       Investigating Paranormal Claims

    Bjo Trimble: Star Trek's first fans

    Ronald L. Schwartz: Cartoon Art Museum

    Writers With No Future Contest:  Bring your rejection slips.
    Sponsored by Spellbinders.

Special note:
    Due to technical difficulties beyond our control, there is a
    possibility that there will not be a Japanamation Guide Book
    this year.  We WILL, of course, have an eighty-hour, wonderful
    Japanese Animation program, with many of the programs subtitled.
    We are extending every effort to overcome our techincal 
    difficulties, and hope to have an animation guide at the con.

Further information can be obtained from one of the addresses below.

baycon
PO Box 70393
Sunnyvale, CA 94086-0393
1 408 446 5141
INTERNET:  baycon@hpda.hp.com
UUCP:	   {hplabs,uunet,...}!hpda!baycon

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 22:43:20 GMT
From: wabbit@lakesys.uucp (Tim Haas)
Subject: Congenial (New Convention!)

              UNART Presents a New, Unconventional Relaxacon!

                             C O N G E N I A L

                          A relaxacon to be held

                            March 17 - 19, 1989

                       at the Sheraton Racine Hotel

                            Our Guests Include:

                           Mercedes (Misty) Lackey
                          Filker Extrordinaire and
                      Author of 'Arrows of the Queen', 
                    'Arrow's Flight', and 'Arrow's Fall'
                     as our Professional Guest of Honor


                          Reed Waller & Kate Worley
                     Creators of 'Omaha, the Cat Dancer'
                        as of Artist Guests of Honor


                                 Andy Hooper
                   Editor of 'Take Your Fanac Everywhere'
                          as our Fan Guest of Honor

Hotel:          The Sheraton Racine (Wisconsin)

Convenient Transport
        Shuttle Service from O'Hare (Chicago), Milwaukee's Mitchell
Field and the Milwaukee Amtrak Terminal directly to the hotel.

Filking...Art Show...Hucksters...Videos...Fan Room...Silly Bathing Suit
Contest...Concerts

                      For More Information, write to:

                                 CONGENIAL
                               P.O. Box 129
                            Wilmette, IL 60091
                                    or
                   lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu

Tim Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233 
(414) 344-6988
UUCP: {...rutgers,ames,ucbvax} !uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit   
Inet: lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu
      ...uunet!marque!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 15:45:59 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Ideas, People, and SF:  A Manifesto

CLYE@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>Science Fiction is about ideas, not people.
> 
>I don't know about this incredibly generalizing statement folks. 

Well... It is incredibly generalizing.  Basically, the Mad Strine has
expressed one extremely limit[ed|ing] end of the spectrum that is SF.  The
other end of the SF spectrum is, of course, equally limit[ed|ing].

One of SF's strengths is its unusual concentration on ideas; this is also,
of course, one of its weaknesses.  There are writers like Hogan, Pournelle,
Niven, Asimov, Clarke, etc., who concentrate on "idea" almost to the
exclusion of character, and produce mind-bogglingly insipid fiction as a
result.  I don't intend this as a slight on any of their ideas; all of
these writers have given the genre ideas that any writer, anywhere in the
spectrum (except the opposite extreme, which we'll get to in a minute),
would be proud of: the Ringworld, for example, or the monolith-critters
from Clarke's 2XXX series.

Unfortunately, these people are not really interested in fiction.  What
they're interested in is a playground for their ideas, one where they don't
have to deal with messy little human details.  Characters in their fiction
exist as machines to run through the plot, to ooh and aah at the wonders
(or, in the more sophisticated forms, to be bored by what we mere 20th
centurians would find wonderful), and to Solve the Problems.  When a
genuinely interesting character is created by such an author, it's an
accident forced on him by the demands of his plot.  The classic example, of
course, is Louis Wu, who is far and away the best character Niven ever
created -- in RINGWORLD.  The sequels (short story and novel) consist of a
complete betrayal of that character -- because Niven's plot demanded it.

These writers' most fervent followers tend to be nerds.  Folks who don't
want to have to read about nasty human stuf like emotions and motivations.
Folks who want ideas with no implications (except, of course, the
technological implications).

Good fiction -- like RINGWORLD, or CHILDHOOD'S END, or the Foundation
series, can be created at this end of the SF spectrum.  But it frequently
isn't.

The other end of the spectrum, as I said above, is just as bad.

Writers here tend to have little or no technical background, and little or
no background in SF.  The archetypical writer of this sort, I think, is
Doris Lessing, whose "Shikasta" books are a monument to what happens when
ideas are totally subservient to the "humanistic" aims of a story.
Lessing, like most Writers, set out to give her readers a dose of Truth;
unfortunately, she decided what the Truth was before she started, and bent
ideas every which way to force her Truth out of her characters.

Writers and readers of this sort of SF tend to be almost uniformly
left-wing, politically, just as the readers and writers at the other end of
the spectrum tend to be right-wing.  This is no coincidence, of course;
right-wing politicians tend to think of materialistic advantage without
considering human realities, while left-wing politicians tend to consider
human needs without thinking about material reality.  Idiotic extremism is
idiotic extremism, no matter what is carried to extremes.

The "humanist" writers can produce very good books, just as the "ideaist"
writers can.  I commend to your attention such writers as Kurt Vonnegut
(who would deny fiercely that he is an SF writer), Harlan Ellison, and
Barry N.  Malzberg.

Having characterized the readers of Pournelle and Hogan, it's only fair
that I say that the readers of Lessing and her ilk tend to be elitist
literary snobs who hang out in coffee shops, discussing the mythical
Revolution (which they will not actually *do* anything to promote), and
bathing about as often as the technoweenies, which is to say nowhere near
often enough.

Perhaps the greatest sign of hope for the future of SF can be seen in the
recent teatempestpot "controversy" over "cyberpunk vs. humanism" -- the two
alleged "movements" that hit SF in the mid-'80s, with the first few "New
Ace Specials."  It's particularly interesting to note that this is merely
another iteration of the "idea vs. character" debate -- but let's look at
the primary writers of each soi-disant "movement."

William Gibson writes idea-a-minute books, no question.  But he writes an
intense, and rather mannered, literary style, painstakingly patterned after
the best of the hard-boiled detective writers, Hammett and Chandler; and
his characters are always interesting, even when (as in NEUROMANCER) they
are uniformly unpleasant.  In his short stories, and in his second novel
(COUNT ZERO), the characters are notably more sympathetic than in
NEUROMANCER.

Kim Stanley Robinson writes books with marvelously thought-out characters
and human values.  But his books (less so with THE WILD SHORE than with
others, such as ICEHENGE) are also filled with wild and inventive ideas.
They aren't the same "kind" of ideas that fill the works of a Gibson; but
then, Larry Niven's ideas aren't James Hogan's either.

In all, the mainstream of SF is *not* about "ideas."

It is *not* about "characters."

It is about characters dealing with unusual (to us, here-now) ideas and
situations.  Or, as Ted Sturgeon (may the Mercy be on him!) said,

   A [good] SF story is the story of a human problem, with a human
   solution, which would not have happened without its technological or
   scientific content.

Dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 04:41:59 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Ideas, People, and SF:  A Manifesto

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM writes:
>The other end of the spectrum, as I said above, is just as bad.  The
>"humanist" writers can produce very good books, just as the "ideaist"
>writers can.  I commend to your attention such writers as Kurt Vonnegut
>(who would deny fiercely that he is an SF writer), Harlan Ellison, and
>Barry N.  Malzberg.

Vonnegut does not deny fiercely that he is an SF writer. Read his
semi-autobiographical _Wampeters, Foma, and Granfalloons_. He deals, in
this book, specifically with this question. In fact, what he says is that
he wrote what he felt was inside him screaming to get out. He never thought
of it as any specific genre. And it came to him as a surprise that he got
stuck into the SF slot. It doesn't bother him, though. He is not a genre
writer. In fact, he will just go on writing what he wants to write,
regardless of what random people classify it as.

He also spends some time in that book *defending* SF. Complains that it
seems people put SF in a metaphorical genre file drawer "and then mistake
that drawer for a urinal." I believe he said he adheres to the idea that
90% of SF is crap, but 90% of everything is crap. (Sturgeon's Law?)

BTW, I think Vonnegut and Ellison are two of the best writers of *any*
genre that I have ever read. Definitely not "just as bad" as the hard SF
end of the spectrum. And *way* more insightful.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 04:11:40 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Hard SF and Literary Quality

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Both [Asimov and Anthony] may have the literary style of a dead mango, but
>at least Asimov has the saving grace of writing science fiction (defined
>here as fiction about science, rather than about people), where literary
>style is a secondary consideration.

Why is this a "saving grace?" A lot of hard SF fans tend to defend the poor
literary quality of these works with the argument that, "Well, you know,
hard SF isn't *supposed* to have any literary quality."

To me, this is no excuse. *Every* author should try to invest his work with
quality. This is no longer the 1940's when SF was so so new that anything
at all written was sure to be published. Perhaps hard SF has stagnated (it
is my *opinion* that this is so), and a major reason it *stays* stagnated
is the very fact that those who read it don't demand any improvement from
it!!  

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 20:24:12 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Books:  'Trash' _versus_ 'Literature'

The whole 'Trash' _versus_ 'Literature' debate is absurd.  In any of the
posts in the debate, arguments are made which should be amazingly obvious
to any literate person.  It's a waste of time to post them.

_Everyone_ who reads at all knows there's a division of literature into
works which are escapist and those that are not.  Though many books lie on
the dividing line between the two realms, it is undeniable that the
categories exist, and painfully obvious.  Why go on about it at great
length?  The whole flamewar is absurd.  It's not even a particularly
amusing one.

The books one reads are a function of one's mental state and needs.  To
stave off depression and suicidal thoughts, a nice, cheery novel cannot be
beat.  If I had a dime for every time a good escapist novel improved my
mental state, I'd probably have stashed a goodly fortune by now.  Some
works that fall into this category are: the better half of Anthony's
_oeuvre_, Roger Zelazny, Alan Dean Foster, Robert Asprin, Michael Resnick,
Mark Twain, and L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt.

When one desires a work which demands effort from the reader, one turns to
another class of work: Samuel R. Delany, the best of Roger Zelazny, Olaf
Stapledon, Harlan Ellison, Jorge Luis Borges, Mark Twain, David Lindsay,
Philip K. Dick, Richard Lupoff, Thomas Disch, _et sic cetera_.

There are, again obviously, many further classifications and subdivisions
with which to taxonomize literary effort, all of which have a purpose of
_classification_.  _Classification_, not _evaluative analysis_, is what we
should strive for in a codification of any form of art.

The best of any particular subset is as noble and as worthwhile as the best
of any other.  Correspondingly, an abuse of the form by any work in any
subset is as worthy of excoriation as an abuse of the form by any work in
any other subset.

In short, don't use the gauge of 'artistic merit' or 'entertainment value'
to limit your literary environment.

...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 28 Apr 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Non-Quest Fantasy (13 msgs) &
                           Comments on Authors

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 22:06:18 GMT
From: urbbl@portofix.liu.se (Urban Blom)
Subject: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

A copule of friends and I discussed fantasy in general recently, and one of
us came up with the idea that practically *all* fantasy novels are about
quests of one kind or another. The only non-quest fantasy we could think of
at the time was Tanith Lee's "Flat Earth" series. I know there are other
examples, but I can't think of any right now. Suggestions, anyone?

Urban Blom
Dept of Computer Science
University of Linkoping
Sweden
Internet: ubo@ida.liu.se
UUCP: ubo@liuida.uucp   
      {mcvax,munnari,uunet}!enea!liuida!ubo
ARPA: ubo%ida.liu.se@uunet.uu.net          

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 16:29:01 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

There's lots of non-quest stuff. Off the top of my head, anything by Steven
Brust. "War for the Oaks" by Emma Bull (Ace Fantasy Special) .  "The
Falling Woman" by Pat Murphy (Tor books, on the final ballot for the
Nebula. A GREAT book). "Jack, the Giant Killer" by Charles de Lint (Ace
Fairy Tales series, hardcover). All the Chelsea Quinn Yarbro St.  Germain
series (Hotel Transylvania, Tor books, the rest coming back into print in
the next year or so) and her Olivia book, A Flame in Byzantium (Tor
Hardcover). Ascian in Rose by Charles de Lint (Axolotl Press) and it's big
sister, Moonheart (Ace?).

That's off the top of my head. There's lots of it. Take a look at the
burgeoning contemporary fantasy sub-genre. If all you're reading is the
overdone generic celtic fantasy re-runs, you're missing most of the really
interesting Fantasy these days....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 21:29:34 GMT
From: dor@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Doug Oosting)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

Define what you mean by a "quest," please.  If you want to leave that idea
open enough, ALL stories are a "quest" of one sort or another.  If what you
mean is a generic fantasy quest to save the king/world/realm/reality by
finding/slaying/eating/making obscene gestures at the great dragon/ mighty
sword/heart, brains and courage ... well, we still fall into the trap that
a story has a GOAL of some sort...otherwise it becomes a (for example)
Harlequin novel with dragons.  Crossing genres like that doesnt seem to
work to well...does it?

Then again, maybe I'm just being silly and obtuse.   ;-P

To try to answer your question...virtually every story set in fantasy
realms DOES seem to have SOME sort of fantastic goal to it...that is the
essence of a FANTASY story, where ONE person (or small group of people) can
have such a dramatic effect on such a vast area.  Sure we could include
elements of other things (intrigue, romance) (and often do) but the main
point of a fantasy story is that "destiny group" that CAN make a
difference.

Would Stasheff's _Warlock_ series count as fantasy or SF? 

Doug Oosting
University of Florida
dor@beach.cis.ufl.edu
...!ihnp4!codas!uflorida!beach.cis.ufl.edu!dor

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 20:41:23 GMT
From: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

I have that very problem with fantasies, too many quests, etc.  The only
fantasy works I read that didn't have any questing in them were the books
in the 'Warlock' series by Larry Niven.  If you're looking for lots of
material, then this may be a let down, but for interesting insights on
magic, wizards, and the origins of many earthly things then read them.(By
earthly things, I mean Niven explains the reasons behind dinosaur bones,
and Atlantis, plus others)

The 'Warlock' stories are in fact a few short stories, plus a collection of
short stories, and a novel.  From memory the two major short stories are
_Not Long Before The End_(I'm not sure but, I think it's in _All The Myriad
Ways_), _What Good Is A Glass Dagger_(in _Flight of the Horse_), plus one
other short of the genre in the short story collection _Limits_.  The novel
is called _The Magic Goes Away_, and the compilation of short stories set
in the world Niven created is called _The Magic May Return_.

These stories aren't fantastic heroic exploits of some muscle-bound
pea-brained barbarian, but an insight into what may have been.  It's not
great fantasy, but it's different and interesting.

Of course if none of this appeals to you, you can always try the _Myth
Adventures_ of Aahz and Skeeve, by Robert Lynn Aspirin.  This series is
especially good if you like bad puns, strange quotes, and frolicking
adventure(frolicking???).

Colin Smiley
ARPA: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu
BITNET: DEKKARD@PURCCVM
UUCP: pur-ee!k.cc.purdue.edu!ad5

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 02:41:55 GMT
From: rcarver@udenva.cair.du.edu (Randall P. Carver)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

   Being a John Myers Myers fan, I couldn't help but to notice your letter.
Assuming you've read _Silverlock_, (if you haven't ask around you shouldn't
have too much problem finding somebody to push it on you :-) I strongly
reccommend JMM's _The_Harp_and_the_Blade_ published in 83?, It's a tale
about an Irish bard in Medieval Europe, and it's just about as close as you
can come to not having a quest.

P.S. Anyone know of any other JMM besides the 'sequel' to _Silverlock_?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 00:20:44 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

The Zimiamvia trilogy by E. R. Eddison.  One of the best (and most unjustly
neglected) works of fantasy.  Note that The Worm Ouroboros, by the same
author, is mostly concerned with a quest.  It is much better known, though
in my opinion inferior.  Perhaps quests sell.

The space trilogy of C.S.Lewis is another example.  Indeed, the most
infuriating thing about That_Hideous_Strength is the refusal of the good
guys to do anything.  All lies in a passion of patience, etc.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 17:17:22 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>That's off the top of my head. There's lots of it. Take a look at the
>burgeoning contemporary fantasy sub-genre. If all you're reading is the
>overdone generic celtic fantasy re-runs, you're missing most of the really
>interesting Fantasy these days....

I predict an upcoming new trend: overdone generic Mayan fantasy re-runs.
Many young female SF authors moving to Mexico and Central America, giving
their houses cute names...

Actually, "The Falling Woman" is popular at the moment - I haven't read it,
but I'll take Chuq's word that it is a "GREAT" book - but there is a wide
history of Central and South America fantasies that are probably better
than "The Falling Woman".  I'm not a big fan of the genre, so I'll let
someone more knowledgeable than I make suggestions.

It is my impression that South American mainstream writing has more fantasy
elements in it than in North American mainstream writing.  Or perhaps I've
just happened to read lots of stories where people turn into jaguars :-).

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 23:40:15 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

>I predict an upcoming new trend: overdone generic Mayan fantasy re-runs.
>Many young female SF authors moving to Mexico and Central America, giving
>their houses cute names...

I'll disagree. The primary one is that the generic celtic fantasy overload
is caused by a number of reasons: the large amount of research material
available to someone writing about early or pre-christian England or
Ireland; the importance of J.R.R. Tolkien and Arthurian Fantasy in the
American/British Fantasy fields (with the associated tendency of people to
homage/rewrite/ripoff same, usually poorly); and the fact that while most
research materials here are in English (or have been translated to modern
english already) the vast majority of the material useful for Central or
South American Fantasy is still in either Spanish or Portuguese, making
research more difficult. And most authors will take the easy way out and
write about something that doesn't require lots of slogging through stacks.
(Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's one major exception of that, by the way. She does
an amazing amount of research for her historical horror/romance novels).

>but there is a wide history of Central and South America fantasies that
>are probably better than "The Falling Woman".  I'm not a big fan of the
>genre, so I'll let someone more knowledgeable than I make suggestions.

Well, not having read Falling Woman, you misinterpreted one thing I said.
Falling Woman is very much an contemporary American Fantasy with strong
Mayan influences, not a South/Central American Mayan fantasy. It's set in
current times, and is about an American archaeologist working on Mayan
digs.  You could even make an argument, if you wish, that the Fantasy
elements don't exist at all, depending on how you want to interpret things.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 88 20:43:58 GMT
From: pyr203@psc90.uucp (Jim Vilandre)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

As I've posted before, Thieves' World, as a series, is heavy reading.
However, the stories all take place in one city, with occasional "cameos"
(I'm not sure if that's the right word...) involving the capital city. This
might qualify as non-quest fantasy.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 88 17:52:36 GMT
From: jstehma@hubcap.uucp (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

pyr203@psc90.UUCP (Jim Vilandre) writes:
>As I've posted before, Thieves' World, as a series, is heavy reading.
>However, the stories all take place in one city, with occasional "cameos"
>(I'm not sure if that's the right word...) involving the capital city.
>This might qualify as non-quest fantasy.

   I would call the first two books (well, book and a half) non-quest
fantasy.  But after that, its pretty much one story (although I haven't
read the latest one).  They had so many good, "ordinary" characters.  Then
they turned them all into gods/mages/avatars.  Ho-hum.  City of Thieves?
How about City of Gods.  :-)

	How about _Jamie_the_Red_, which apparently has nothing in common
with this name-sake out of Thieves' World.  The book simply follows Jamie
and his band of mercenaries.  No quests.  The book even jumps in spots.

   I remember reading a collection of short stories about Brak the
barbarian.  He was just travelling, but he kept getting waylaid by
adventures.  Many of them were quest-type, assuming you can do a quest in
30 pages.  Except for one story more or less picking up where the last one
left off, the chapters had no common theme.

   _Taran_Wanderer_, book four of the _Chronicles_of_P-something, might
fit.  Taran had a quest, but it was to "find himself."  Basically short
stories, although it holds together much better than that.  Will take you
all of a couple hours to read -- an entire day if you read all five books.
Book one (whatever it is), _The_Black_Cauldron_, and _The_High_King_ are
all quest books.  The other one in there, something about the isle of
Llyrr, I believe (been a while), wasn't much of a quest book, if I recall
correctly.  They are "children's" stories.

   _The_Wizard_and_the_Warlord_ by Boyer.  The only one of her books on the
Alfar that is not quest oriented.  Its about friends and staying alive,
although the last part of the book is a journey to find the main
character's past.

   _The_Goblin_Tower_, book one of the _Unbeheaded_King_ trilogy.  The main
character's "quest" is to stay alive.  Very enjoyable reading, as the main
charcter is a good story teller and his story-telling makes up half the
book.  Book two is his saving a city, and book three is his attempt to
regain his favorite wife.

   _The_Silmarlian_?  An "epic struggle," but not a quest.  You may
consider some of the stories quests, but they are quests that fail.  Rather
unusual.

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

From: jwp@chem.ucsd.edu
Date: 23 Apr 88 08:03:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Latin/South American Writing (was Non-Quest Fantasy)

srt@aero.UUCP (Scott R. Turner) writes:
> It is my impression that South American mainstream writing has more
> fantasy elements in it than in North American mainstream writing.  Or
> perhaps I've just happened to read lots of stories where people turn into
> jaguars :-).

Very interesting stuff, Latin and South American writing.  How about
"Mulata" by Asturias?  Would one call that fantasy or mainstream?  It looks
a lot like fantasy to me.  But fantasy novels don't win Nobel prizes, do
they?

John Pierce
Chemistry, B-032
UCSD
La Jolla,  CA 92093
+1 619 534 0203
jwp@chem.ucsd.edu
jwpierce@ucsd

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 13:39:03 GMT
From: leeds@cfa250.harvard.edu (Paul Martenis)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

straney@msudoc.ee.mich-state.edu (Ronald W. DeBry) writes:
>... One favorite that hasn't gotten much ink (oops, phosphorous) is Glen
> Cook's Black Company trilogy. ...

   Is this any relation to Arthur Conan Doyle's _White Company_?  (Yeah, he
wrote something besides Sherlock Holmes.)  It is not fantasy, but a fun
historical (how accurate, I can't say) novel - at least it was fun when I
was about fourteen.

Paul L. Martenis
Cambridge, MA

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 15:22:52 GMT
From: csrdi@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (Janet: rick@uk.ac.ed)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

I know it's not a novel, but Valkyrie Press's comic REDFOX is, to my mind,
the best fantasy publication about. The characters and background are
strongly defined, the storylines are well thought out and although Redfox
is the heroine she doesn't totally dominate the comic. The supporting
characters are well thought out and have lives of their own - which
sometimes catch up to them. Well worth looking for.

Rick.
Janet: rick@uk.ac.ed
BITNET: rick%uk.ac.ed@UKACRL
ARPA: rick@ed.ac.uk
UUCP: rick%uk.ac.ed%ukc@mcvax

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 19:31:55 GMT
From: dml@rabbit1.uucp (David Langdon)
Subject: Asimov and Anthony

I have been reading with interest the latest flame thrower/fire
extinguisher war going on about Asimov and Anthony and couldn't resist
offering my comments on the subject.

Asimov:

Isaac Asimov is a book publishing machine. He writes more books than anyone
else I know of. In the last number of years, his collection of SF books has
seen a large design in quality. His older books (Elijah Bailey/Daneel
series, Foundation series, and assorted others) are actually quite good
(some consider classics and I'm tempted to agree). The last Asimov book I
read was the last in the Daneel Olivaw series (Robot Dreams??) and I quite
enjoyed it. For my taste though, you have to seriously pick and choose the
Asimov books you read.

Anthony:

Anthony appears to be a distant cousin of Asimov in the number of books
published. Unlike Asimov, he does not really have a consistent or reliable
track record for having "classics" (does he have any?) or even really good
books. Don't get me wrong, I have read a number of his books and even
enjoyed a number of them (Macroscope, the Proton/Phaze series, maybe one or
two others). The major problem with Anthony is his steps into never-never
land of superfluous explanation/description. I like things to progress
smoothly and neatly. Anthony very often is just too wordy. Ergo, you need
to be very choosy as to which of his books you read.

Conclusion:

Both authors have the Good, the Bad, and the UGLY!!!!! If you have tried
them and couldn't find anything you like, then YOU don't like them. If
nobody liked them, neither would still be writing books. Both authors also
have books that are considered entertaining and not just mindless words
without meaning. Remember, trying to convince someone who likes an author
that the author only writes trash (or something similar) is a waste of time
since that person obviously is convinced otherwise. Read what you want,
enjoy it, and try something new (or daring - Anthony or Asimov) every now
and then and maybe you'll be surprised.

A question on a completely different author:

Does anyone know why Orson Scott Card likes to write stories where the main
character(s) are children. Of all the books I've read of his, the main
characters have been children:

   Hart's Hope: "the little king" - can't rememeber the name
   Songmaster: the "emperor's songbird" - again can't remember name
   Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead - Ender
   Seventh Son - Alvin Jr.

These are the only Card books I've found in paperback so far.

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East
Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 2 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Card (8 msgs),
		    Magazines - Aboriginal SF (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 88 14:59:01 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Card's kids (Was: Re: Asimov and Anthony)

randy@ncifcrf.gov (The Computer Grue) writes:
>dml@hutch.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>>Does anyone know why Orson Scott Card likes to write stories where the
>>main character(s) are children.
>    Good question; have you noticed that he also tends to subject these
>children to severe, damaging pressures and see what happens?  This is true
>for Ender's Game, for Songmaster, and for the Alvin Maker series.  In the
>case of _Ender's Game_ and _Songmaster_ it was enough to cause some
>psychological damage to the kids involved.  It was bad enough to really
>turn me off on the book in Songmaster (though I very much like the other
>stuff of his I've read).  Does anyone have any ideas why this is?  I find
>myself wondering about Card's childhood . .

I don't think he means to realistically portray the suffering of children.
I imagine it has a lot to do with his Mormon background.  According to
Mormon doctrine all human beings are the literal offspring of God and have
been placed on Earth to learn and be tested.  This apparently does entail
"severe, damaging pressure", or what the person might consider "damaging"
anyway.  (What do children in elementary school think of the pressure
there?)  Ender turned out OK in the end.  I haven't read _Songmaster_ so I
can't help you there.  Anyway, the suffering of children is probably
analogous to growth under pressure of human beings in general.

The idea of growth from pressure is prevalent throughout much of science
fiction.  Frank Herbert is an excellent example: his Fremen were extremely
strong because of the harsh environment which they'd been subjected to.
The Sardaukar (sp?  The imperial storm troopers) came from an extremely
harsh planet also, and this was the reason behind their strength.  Also
check out the _Dosadi Experiment_.

Of course, Card may have had a tough childhood and there may be elements of
this mixed in.  Far be it from me to claim a one-to-one mapping of ideas in
literature!

Darren Leigh
362 Memorial Dr.
Cambridge, MA 02139
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
mit-amt!dlleigh

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 15:09:12 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

"Wyrms" isn't Card's best, but worth reading, especially for his treatment
of the talking heads.  After people die, their heads can be preserved for a
millenium or so before deteriorating hopelessly.  Thus the king maintains a
court of "wise men" to advise him.

There is actually some crackpot engineer from New Jersey who has patented a
method of maintaining human heads after death of the body.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 15:26:56 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Card's kids (Was: Re: Asimov and Anthony)

randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>    Good question; have you noticed that he also tends to subject these
>children to severe, damaging pressures and see what happens?  This is true
>for Ender's Game, for Songmaster, and for the Alvin Maker series.  In the
>case of _Ender's Game_ and _Songmaster_ it was enough to cause some
>psychological damage to the kids involved.  It was bad enough to really
>turn me off on the book in Songmaster (though I very much like the other
>stuff of his I've read).  Does anyone have any ideas why this is?  I find
>myself wondering about Card's childhood . .  .

Perhaps it is Card's way of exploring one of the realities of "the human
condition" (although I hate using that term).  The type of idyllic suburban
childhood exemplified by Steven Spielberg movies (not including "The Color
Purple") and "Leave it to Beaver" isn't really all that interesting to read
about and doesn't make for interesting characters or conflicts. It also
tends to produce vacuous (if well-adjusted) yuppies in real-life.  Card's
exploration of deep negative experiences in early childhood may reflect his
realization of the importance of this period of imprinting and not a
reflection of what his own childhood was like (from what I know of him, it
was quite normal and suburban).  Speculation along these lines is not very
useful (in my view) anymore than trying to analyze why you were turned off
by Songmaster.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 21:14:12 GMT
From: leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

B1E@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>Hello, I'm new to this newsgroup and I want to know if anyone out there
>loves Orson Scott Card's work as much as I do.
>
>I've read _Songmaster_, _Ender's_Game_, _Speaker_for_the_Dead_,
>_Hart's_Hope_, and _Seventh_Son_.
>
>If anyone out there knows of other books by Card, please let me know.

Well, you've got just about everything they've put in the "science fiction"
section so far.  There is another book, called "Wyrms," which I've read.
It doesn't compare to his really great work (read "all the rest of his
writing") but it's still pretty worthwhile.

I've heard rumors and more substantial claims that he's got another few
books, one of them is called "Planet of ____" or something, but I can't
find any of his work but the ones we've mentioned.  Anybody have clues?
Books with his name in the author spot all qualify.

Oh by the way, the sequel to _Seventh Son_ is out in hardback and is called
_Red Prophet._ One of the very few books I would consider getting in
hardback.  All told, the story will be about 5 books long.  By which time
Mr. Card hopes (he said so himself) to be "good enough" to write the Third
(heh, heh,) Ender book.  After all, a follow-up to the 2 books that won the
Hugos and Nebulas will take some doing to go beyond "a disappointment."
among the critics.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 03:56:40 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Card's kids (Was: Re: Asimov and Anthony)

randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>dml@hutch.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>>Does anyone know why Orson Scott Card likes to write stories where the
>>main character(s) are children.
>    Good question; have you noticed that he also tends to subject
>these children to severe, damaging pressures and see what happens?

Stephen King seems to do this too, doesn't he? (I don't actually read King,
but I have heard from people who do and also read a review that mentioned
something like this. But -- ahhh -- I've seen some of the movies, and it
was true in them.) Especially in his short stories?

Maybe because doing it to kids makes the horror more horror-ful.

(This posting not meant to acclaim, condemn, or in any way present
an opinion on either King or Card.)

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 04:02:32 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Card's kids (Was: Re: Asimov and Anthony)

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>Anyway, the suffering of children is probably analogous to growth
>under pressure of human beings in general.
>
>The idea of growth from pressure is prevalent throughout much of science
>fiction.  Frank Herbert is an excellent example: his Fremen were extremely
>strong because of the harsh environment which they'd been subjected to.
>The Sardaukar (sp?  The imperial storm troopers) came from an extremely
>harsh planet also, and this was the reason behind their strength.  Also
>check out the _Dosadi Experiment_.

I understand the idea of "growth under pressure" of the character of an
individual human being. But I don't think the Herbert examples cited are
good analogies -- they all deal with the idea of the "strengthening of a
culture through *natural selection*." Saying that the survival pressure on
a group *causes* it to become stronger is making something that is indirect
into something that is direct. Maybe that's not what you meant...  It seems
like LaMarkianism (sp? I might not even have the right guy here.  The one I
want is the one who had the Theory of Use and Disuse -- e.g.  giraffe's
have long necks because they keep stretching them to reach the leaves, etc.
Disproven by cutting tails off of mice. You know -- that one?)

Anyway, I still get the idea you were after, I think.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 14:46:21 GMT
From: leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card's reviews

drich@bgsuvax.UUCP (Daniel Rich) writes:
>  Also, you might want to check recent issues of Issac Asimov's Science
>Fiction Magazine.  They have been publishing more of his Hatrack River
>stories.  These are all based in the same world as _Seventh_Son_.

   Oh, and if you like his fiction, he reviews other fiction in F&SF
magazine.  His latest recommendation: _Neverness_ by David Zindell.  I
haven't read it yet (only out in hardback) but would appreciate any input
as to how good it really is.  Card described it as "cosmic science fiction
at its best."  If you like cosmic science fiction, you might want to try
this out.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 06:38:39 GMT
From: dgiles@polyslo.uucp (Darren Giles)
Subject: Re: Ender's Name? (was Re: Orson Scott Card

fleishman-glenn@CS.YALE.EDU (Glenn Fleishman) writes:
>Could anyone email me Ender's Name from Card's book Ender's Game?  I came
>across a real person today whose name was Thomas Ostrom Ender, and it
>seemed to me as if that were very close to Ender's name.

   Sorry, not really all that close.  Ender's given name was Andrew
Wiggins; "Ender" was a nickname.

Darren

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 14:10:57 GMT
From: kjm@ROYAL.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Aboriginal SF

Aboriginal SF was named that so that it would be the first SF magazine
listed alphabetically.  While this may not make a lot of sense, think about
it: what does "Analog" mean?

Aboriginal SF is still doing well.  It's now being sold in almost all
Waldenbook stores and the subscription base is up to about 17,000 before
the last advertising mailing.

As you may have guessed, I have an inside connection.  My wife is an
assistant editor at Abo, and she writes one of their book review columns.

Abo should be around for a while; the magazine's publisher is very frugal,
it's starting to get advertisements, and the response to the mailings has
been good.

[I hope this isn't too commercial]

Please don't send me anything regarding the magazine.  Charlie Ryan (the
editor) loves to get letters (and prints a fair number of them), and, of
course, I have no connection to the magazine except for friendships and my
marriage.

It's interesting, though, that Abo is the only new magazine to make it past
2 issues since Asimov's.  It usually is not a great bet to buy a
subscription to a new magazine, but after the first ten or so issues, the
risk should be a lot less.

Ken Meltsner
meltsner@ge-crd.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 22:58:57 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Aboriginal SF

>I recently received an advertisement in the mail for a 'new' magazine
>called Aboriginal SF.  Has anyone seen this magazine yet?  Is it any good?
>And why is it called 'Aboriginal"?  I thought it might mean the stories
>are reprints.

It's called Aboriginal because by calling it Aboriginal lots of people run
around asking questions like "Why is it called Aboriginal SF?" and generate
lots of name recognition and publicity.

I've been a subscriber since the first issue. It's a good Science Fiction
magazine. The fiction isn't up to Asimov's, but it holds it's own to Analog
and F&SF. The art is well-reproduced, but I wish they could afford better
artists to work with it -- lots of the stuff is real average.

It's real, it is delivered reliably, has existed over a year and seems to
be marginally profitable, so it should continue to exist. if I were just
starting to subscribe to SF magazines today, I'd probably put it third on
my list, after Asimov's and F&SF. Analog would be fourth.

So go for it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 00:09:52 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Aboriginal SF

BARBER@portland.BITNET (Wayne Barber) writes:
> I recently received an advertisement in the mail for a 'new'
> magazine called Aboriginal SF.  Has anyone seen this magazine yet?

I saw a few issues in the book store.  Looked interesting, so when I got
the little card I sent it in.  Now I don't see any issues of Aboriginal in
the same book store and wonder if they've folded.  Wouldn't be too
surprised.

George Robbins
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 14:58:08 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Re: Aboriginal SF

BARBER@portland.BITNET (Wayne Barber) writes:
>I recently received an advertisement in the mail for a 'new' magazine
>called Aboriginal SF.  Has anyone seen this magazine yet?  Is it any good?
>And why is it called 'Aboriginal"?  I thought it might mean the stories
>are reprints.  The magazine is full-size with full color illustrations and
>is supposed to have some of the top names in SF writing for it.  Any
>information will be greatly appreciated.

I recently subscribed to Aboriginal SF, and was so impressed by the first
issue that I ordered all the back issues I had missed.  I think it is quite
good.  It generally has six or so short stories, lots of artwork, and a few
columns.  The stories are very high quality; there's the occasional
clinker, but even the clinkers are pretty good.

It's called Aboriginal -- and this is something of a minor spoiler, so if
you want to order their issue #1 and find out for yourself, skip this
paragraph -- because the way they get their material is by intercepting the
transmissions of an alien anthropologist who is "checking us out."  He
lifts the SF stories from the diskettes of their authors, and then sends
them back to his home planet.  Charles Ryan -- the editor of Aboriginal SF
- -- takes the stories thus intercepted, contacts their authors, and pays
them for the stories, and then prints them.  Along with the stories and
various copies of other interesting material (three year's worth of letters
from Car and Driver magazine, the complete works of Shakespeare, The Old
Man and the Sea, for example), the alien transmits a report about some of
the aspects of earth life that he feels need explaining.  These
commentaries are reprinted in Abo, and the alien's viewpoint is fairly
amusing, speaking from a purely aboriginal point of view.

In addition to the above mentioned stories and columns, Abo also has
four-color illustrations all through the issue, and they really add to the
overall feel of the magazine.  When Abo started out it was printed on
high-quality paper stock in a newspaper size (about 18" x 11"), and
recently they switched to a magazine size printed on high-quality glossy
paper.

It's a pretty neat magazine, and I like it (as you can no doubt tell).
Anyone who likes short Science Fiction stories will probably like this
magazine.  If I had to choose between my subscription to Abo and my
subscription to Asimov's, Abo would win, hands down.  It's just more fun to
read.

If you're interested in subscribing, here's the address:

   Aboriginal SF
   P.O. Box 2449
   Woburn, MA   01888-0849

Enjoy.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 07:44:42 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Aboriginal SF

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>It's real, it is delivered reliably, has existed over a year and seems to
>be marginally profitable, so it should continue to exist.

I had heard rumors (I think about 6-8 months ago) that Aboriginal SF was
having some sort of problems and may be discontinued?  Were these
unfounded?

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 00:14:28 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Aboriginal SF

>It's interesting, though, that Abo is the only new magazine to make it
>past 2 issues since Asimov's.  It usually is not a great bet to buy a
>subscription to a new magazine, but after the first ten or so issues, the
>risk should be a lot less.

This isn't true. A new magazine, Argos SF, out of Washington state, just
published its second issue. It's in the Asim/Analog/Amazing style newsprint
digest format, and has had some interesting fiction in the first couple of
issues. Their print-run is supposed to be miniscule right now (like three
thousand or so...) but it's a start.

Has the second issue of the newest incarnation of Weird Tales hit yet? I
haven't seen it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 2 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Brust & Farmer (3 msgs) & Lustbrader &
                      Myers & Niven (2 msgs) & Saberhagen &
                      Schmitz & Simak & Non-Quest Fantasy (2 msgs) &
                      New Writers (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 03:11:38 GMT
From: rcarver@udenva.cair.du.edu (Randall P. Carver)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust

>I said it was Brokedown Castle - El Wrongo - it's _Brokedown Palace_.
>Good book too.

   I wholeheartedly agree.  Being a fan of Gerry and his band, I couldn't
help but pick this one up.  If you read the dedication, you'll realize what
I'm talking about.  Does anyone know any background on this?  For those of
you who live in mortal fear of the G.D. don't worry, it's not really a book
concerning the G.D., but it seems like the idea of it was the child of a
song by the same name.

P.S for those out there still in limbo land G.D.=Grateful Dead

Randy

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 17:17:19 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: Re: Gor (was: Re:New Science Fiction Writers)

Not to mention another by P. Jose Farmer called something like "Image of
the Beast" (vague from memory).  It involves all kinds of black-magic
witches/creatures and perverted sex.  I didn't know what I was getting into
when I started it.  Good thing I'm not easily offended or upset.  I DON'T
recommend this for anyone with a weak stomach, but it WAS a good read.  It
had a good plot, good characters, moved quickly, lot's of suspense.  But
not for everyone.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 15:46:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Philip Jose Farmer ( was: Re: G

   I found Farmer's A Feast Unknown boring, repetitive and simplistic.
It's hardly pornography; there's too much plot in between the
"objectionable" scenes to maintain any consistent level of titillation. I
thought both Lord Tyger and Flesh were better conceived and better written.
And Flesh is R-rated at best (worst?). Most of the sex is behind the
scenes. You sound pretty squeamish calling this stuff "porno SF".

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 12:42:58 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: World of Tiers series

mok@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>mackey@cornu.UCSB.EDU (Bruce A. Mackey) writes:
>... This includes the Riverword series: although he claims to have
>concluded that series the last book still left some questions up for
>grabs. He *may* one day write another book in the series, but the odds are
>extreamly low that he will ever write a concluding book.

He said at least once that he had finished the multi-volume epic, and then
produced a new volume.

The final volume (that I know about) "The Gods of Riverworld" continues in
the same way as the rest of the series for about three-quarters of the
book.  The excess characters are then put to one side while the main
characters tidy up the story, resolve most of the questions, and explain
what has REALLY been going on in the preceeding volumes.

This to me seemed to be a good volume to end the series with.  Another
volume is possible, you can always find a way to write a sequel, but not
really needed.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 88 17:55:32 GMT
From: jstehma@hubcap.uucp (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: The Sunset Warrior

   Interested in what people thought of the _Sunset_Warrior_ trilogy.
Also, when in his career did Lustbrader (sp) write it.

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 18:45:01 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

rcarver@udenva.cair.du.edu (Randall P. Carver) writes:
>Being a John Myers Myers fan, I couldn't help but to notice your letter.
> 
> P.S. Anyone know of any other JMM besides the 'sequel' to _Silverlock_?

Other than "Silverlock", "The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter", "The Harp and
the Blade", only a couple of history books, generally about the western US
circa 1850-90.  None of them fantasy or sf, though.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 15:20:29 GMT
From: okie@ihlpf.att.com (Cobb)
Subject: Re: The Hitchikers guide to Time Travel grammar

csrdi@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Janet:rick@uk.ac.ed) writes:
> see also an essay by Larry Niven in one of his early short story
> collections, about time travel. Can't remember the name of the book
> offhand.

The collection you're looking for is, I belive, "All the Myriad Ways."  Not
only does it contain an interesting essay on time travel, but also one on
teleportation and one on the development of the Ringworld.

And for those of us with weirder tastes, there's the essay "Man of Steel,
Woman of Kleenex," which deals with the potential (and deadly) sex life of
Superman.  Definitely worth reading for amusement and the ultimate in
taking things to the absurd extreme.

BKCobb
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, Illinois
ihnp4!ihlpf!okie

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 14:32:11 GMT
From: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: The Hitchikers guide to Time Travel grammar

okie@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Cobb) writes:
>csrdi@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Janet:rick@uk.ac.ed) writes:
>> see also an essay by Larry Niven in one of his early short story
>> collections, about time travel. Can't remember the name of the book
>> offhand.
>
> The collection you're looking for is, I belive, "All the Myriad Ways."
> Not only does it contain an interesting essay on time travel, but also
> one on teleportation and one on the development of the Ringworld.
> 
> And for those of us with wierder tastes, there's the essay "Man of Steel,
> Woman of Kleenex," which deals with the potential (and deadly) sex life
> of Superman.  Definitely worth reading for amusement and the ultimate in
> taking things to the absurd extreme.

I hate to get you on this, but you seem to be a tad mixed up with your
books. The time travel book is the short story compilation _The Flight of
The Horse_ by Niven.  _All of the Myriad Ways_ is just a compilation of
other short stories and essays like _Man of Steel, Woman of
Kleenex_(hilarious).

The stories in _TFoTH_ are about a future where industrial pollution has
gotten so terrible, that humans need less oxygen and more CO2 to breathe.
Too much oxygen will kill them.

Well the stories revolve around Svetz, a time traveller, who is intimidated
by his job, and who must constantly go back in time to get some extinct
animals.  Pretty humorous reading.

Has anyone read all of Niven's short stories?, I've got every book he's
ever written, or co-written, and have enjoyed them all(well, _Lucifer's
Hammer_ was a tad depressing).  I've even read _Down in
Flames_(sniff...sniffle...*WWAAAAAHHHHHH!!!* ), the total discrediting of
Known Space.  I actually enjoy the weird stories like _Chocolate Manhole
Covers_(I'm unsure of the title, I haven't re-read my books in a while.
y'know how school is and such.), and love, the Draco's Tavern stuff...

Comments anyone?

Colin Smiley
ARPA: ad5@k.cc.purdue.edu
BITNET: DEKKARD@PURCCVM
UUCP: pur-ee!k.cc.purdue.edu!ad5

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 19:31:27 GMT
From: mok@pawl18.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Books of Swords (was Re: Magician's Law)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>  In Fred Saberhagen's first "Book of Swords" trilogy, the gods are
>playing power games with the humans. It was never made completely clear,
>but I got the impression that it is a far future earth, which has declined
>to the dark ages and is starting to rise again. The Greek gods (or were
>they going by their Roman names?) have commissioned Hephaestus to create
>12 unique swords of great power, which are then dispersed among the
>mortals. The gods seemed to be doing this mainly for sport, but it became
>apparent that their own power and prestige was somehow involved. Details
>are very fuzzy. I read these a few years ago.

   Actually the world is a far future earth. The reason that he never
bothered to make it completely clear is that he took care of those details
in the trilogy previous to this one. What's that you say? You never knew
that the books of swords were a sequel to another work! Fortunately I'm
willing to repair your criminal ignorance. The Books of Swords attempt to
follow up to another trilogy (Saberhagen is now going on his third trilogy
in this world) called _Empire_of_the_East_. I don't remember the names of
the individual books as I read them in collected format, but please try to
find them. This trilogy is far better than it's successors and adds to your
understanding of them (the Emperor is WHAT!!).

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 01:45:46 GMT
From: leonard@agora.uucp
Subject: Re: James Schmitz Enquiry

Schmitz *started* the sequel to "The Witches of Karres" but The
half-finished manuscript was lost by the movers when he moved
cross-crountry. He just dropped it at that point...

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 15:28:00 GMT
From: slocum@hi-csc.uucp
Subject: Clifford Simak dies

Clifford D. Simak, author of such favorites as "City" and "Out of Their
Minds", died April 25, 1988 in Minneapolis.  He was 83.  He spent 47 years
as a journalist mostly for the Minneapolis Tribune and the Minneapolis
Star.

Winner of three Hugos and three Nebula awards including the Grand National
for his entire collection of work, Simak was inducted into the SF Hall of
Fame in 1973.  He received the International Fantasy Award for "City" and
the Grand Master award from the SF Writer's of America for the short story
"Grotto of the Dancing Deer".

Simak's work featured the common people - farmers, repairmen, journalists -
who didn't always win.

Would one of the famous sf-lovers bibliographers post Simak's biblio?

Brett Slocum
UUCP: ...{uunet,ihnp4!umn-cs}!hi-csc!slocum
Arpa: hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 12:57:07 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

Jack Vance has written quite a bit of fantasy as well as SF.  I don't
recall too many quests in his stories.  Start with "The Dying Earth" and
"Eyes of the Overworld".  His protagonists are what are known in Spanish as
"piqueros" (sort of a likable rogue).  For something really different try
"A Winter's Tale" by Halperin or "Little, Big" by Crowley.  I couldn't
finish either book, but some people go bonkers over them.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 15:11:38 GMT
From: rick@ge1cbx.uucp (Frederick John Kleffel)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

urbbl@portofix.liu.se (Urban Blom) writes:
> A copule of friends and I discussed fantasy in general recently, and one
> of us came up with the idea that practically *all* fantasy novels are
> about quests of one kind or another. The only non-quest fantasy we could
> think of at the time was Tanith Lee's "Flat Earth" series. I know there
> are other examples, but I can't think of any right now. Suggestions,
> anyone?

The "Gormenghast" Trilogy by Mervyn Peake leaps to mind, but it is in many
ways an atypical fantasy.  It is (in modern movie reviewer terms) a "coming
of age story" set in world that is certainly not any past or present that
we know of, nor is it ever hinted that this is a future (or even the
dreaded "alternate present").  It is simply a world, populated by humans,
devoid of any frothing "magic" except the traditional (SF) "sense of
wonder".  Highly (and periodically) recommended.

Quotron Systems Inc.
PO Box 66914
5454 Beethoven Street
(213)827-4600 x4256
LA CA 90066
uucp: trwrb!scgvaxd!janus!trdrjo!rick

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 20:18:43 GMT
From: OK2@psuvmb.bitnet
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Writers

     In reference to Chuq Von Rospach...
> Too bad we aren't talking about Fantasy here as well.....

      Please do feel free to go ahead and talk about them.  Great fantasy
is rare, and I'd love to see some postings about new fantasy (or reissued
old fantasy!) as well as discussions of Science Fiction (which need not be
separate).  So, what do you hear about that's new in fantasy?

>Mike Resnick

     Any chance of his writing a sequel to _Stalking The Unicorn_ ?  I
loved that book, for the fantastic elements as well as the humor, but
mostly for the style he pulled it off with.  I haven't read any of his
other work (my time and financial resources being as limited as any other
college student) but I've heard Santiago is good.

     And speaking of fantasy, I just finished reading Terry Pratchett's
_The Light Fantastic_, sequel to _The Color Of Magic_.  Excellent humor
that reminds me of Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide series, (except that,
so far, the quality has only improved.  I don't know whether to wish for a
third book or to hope he leaves it at two and doesn't run it into the
ground)

     So, over to you Chuq...

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 02:04:42 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: New Fantasy Writers

>>> Too bad we aren't talking about Fantasy here as well.....
>>
>>      Please do feel free to go ahead and talk about them.  Great fantasy
>>is rare, and I'd love to see some postings about new fantasy (or reissued
>>old fantasy!)

Another that nobody has mentioned yet, even though I think I remember a
discussion about it when it came out, is _Mythago Wood_ by Robert
Holdstock.  This book put me back into reading fantasy.  Everything in it
seemed real enough that I could go there myself.  Overall an excellent
example of fantasy.

Bryan McDonald
University of California
bkmcdonald@ucdavis

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 16:15:46 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: New Fantasy Writers (and Effinger)

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>The Falling Woman should win the Nebula but it probably won't (my guess is
>the Effinger book right now). She'll definitely win a shorter length
>though.  And I'll bet The Falling Woman doesn't make the Hugo ballot,
>although it deserves it. So it goes.

By "the Effinger book," I assume you mean "When Gravity Fails." Has anyone
brought this up before? I was out of sf-lovers for a while, so I may have
missed the discussion. Mostly, it is a high-tech detective story, with a
great setting, great characters, and very good plot.  Reminded me a little
of the movie "Blade Runner." As one of the reviewers commented "This is
what cyberpunk will be when it grows up."  Also good ammo for the
brain<->computer links discussion.

By the way, Chuq, if "The Falling Woman" is so good, what do you think will
prevent it from making the Hugo ballot?

>Joel Rosenberg: His Guardians of the Flame series is the only D&D based
>Fantasy series that works.

But it didn't really start to work until he'd eliminated most of the D&D
basis. Four books so far. But as of Boskone, he told me that the next one
isn't due out in hardcover until next January.

Pete Granger
decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 05:19:30 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.uucp
Subject: Re: New Fantasy Writers (and Effinger)

>By the way, Chuq, if "The Falling Woman" is so good, what do you think
>will prevent it from making the Hugo ballot?

Popularity. That's not as strong a barrier for the Nebulas, but it is for
the Hugo. She's good, but she's not as well known, so her books don't sell
as well. Given a strong plate of fair to above average books by major
authors, it's really hard for a newcomer to get onto the Hugo ballot unless
the book really breaks out and makes an impact. "The Falling Woman" sold
pretty well, but nothing compared to, say, "Uplift War".

The reality is you're more likely to see Pam Sargeants "The Shores of
Women" on the ballot than Murphy's book. That's not to be construed as an
insult to that book, either. Shores of Women would have been a Nebula
finalist if it hadn't been for a rather amazing number of last minute votes
for Brin's "Uplift War".

Effinger will likely be on the Hugo ballot. So will Brin. Of the slots that
are left, Murphy has to fight against all the votes that people like
Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, et al, get simply because lots and lots of people
read them and will vote for them because they did read the Asimov book.

That's not to be construed as sour grapes. The Hugos are, and are designed
to be, a popularity-quality contest. The best book read by the most voters.
And that's fine. Just because I think a book should be on the list doesn't
make me right and everyone else in the world wrong, it's just One Man's
Opinion. There are a large number of really good books that won't make it
to the ballot. That doesn't make them less good. There are only five
finalists, and only one winner, out of over a thousand titles a year.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 2 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 13:03:42 GMT
From: c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu
Subject: Robert A. Heinlein..

     It seems that many of you have labeled Heinlein as pornographic.  Have
you actually read any of his work, or are you going by what the masses
believe?  I have read every single novel/short story written by him. And as
Jubal told Ben, "I see the beauty in what he(Mike) is trying to create."
As Jubal also tells Ben, "He(Mike) has seen the sickness of our culture,
and in order to correct to reform, he first must throw away the moral
standards established by the masses."  I don't think those are exact words,
but something like it.  Anyway, I see the beauty in what Heinlein is trying
to achieve, even though he says what, insead of how..

Frank Leer

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 04:30:42 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP () writes:
>"I see the beauty in what he(Mike) is trying to create."  As Jubal also
>tells Ben, "He(Mike) has seen the sickness of our culture, and in order to
>correct to reform, he first must throw away the moral standards
>established by the masses."  I don't think those are exact words, but
>something like it.  Anyway, I see the beauty in what Heinlein is trying to
>achieve, even though he says what, insead of how..

Are these quotes from _Stranger in a Strange Land_? If so, then you are
lucky to have read the only Heinlein novel I have ever come across that
advocates peace and love and all-that-hippie-stuff as the road to the
perfect society.

All the other ones use rather...well...dare I say it?...FASCIST (oooooooh I
feel a flame attack coming on. Asbestos suit on and damn the cancer!!)
philosophies.

E.g.: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, where the idea is to "free" the lunar
colonies by setting up a dictatorship of 3, then completely fixing the
"elections" so these people could get who they wanted into office.  Also,
the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout the book is
this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad breath that
they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.  Let them breathe
vacuum."

Ahhh, the beauty Heinlein is trying to create...

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 21:05:35 GMT
From: moran-william@yale.uucp
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP () writes:>
>    It seems that many of you have labeled Heinlein as pornographic.  Have
>you actually read any of his work, or are you going by what the masses
>believe?  I
... Lots of stuff deleted

I too have read all of his books except the most recent one, and I think he
has gotten fairly twisted of late (say post Time Enough for Love). He seems
to have gotten preoccupied with the idea of incest, and while it was
amusing at first, it begins to wear thin fairly quickly. Further, he seems
to want to pull things together the way Asimov is doing; it works better
for Asimov than Heinlein. This is no reflection on either of their books. I
happen to think that Heinlein (like many other writers) would have been
better off if he had stopped writing ten years ago.
			  
William L. Moran Jr.
moran@{yale.arpa, cs.yale.edu, yalecs.bitnet}
...{ihnp4!hsi,decvax}!yale!moran

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 13:46:56 GMT
From: mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP () writes:
>     It seems that many of you have labeled Heinlein as pornographic.  Have
>you actually read any of his work, or are you going by what the masses
>believe?  I have read every single novel/short story written by him...

Pornographic may be too stirring a word but it is close.  I have also read
a great many of his works.  I wish to say that not all or in fact a great
deal of Heinlein's work goes into the near-pornographic classification,
concentrate on his works starting in 1973 with Time Enough For Love up to
the present.

The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I do
not wish to quibble whether a Buxom woman in a partially in zipped tight
space suit is partially nude, the attitude towardds women is clear.

Consider the first novel in this phase of his writing, Time enough For
Love, in this novel the Hero has sex with his mother, has sex with very
young girls (these girls are twins who are in fact cloned from him, and he
considered them sisters), the man is immortal and has women pandering all
over him.

Here is a quote in the passage before the Hero has sex with his mother. (He
has gone back in time so seh is young and attractive.)

P. 489 -- "Well why should a young matron, enen in 1917, not be pleased--
and flattered, and unresentful-- to know that a man wanted her most
urgently to take her to bed and treat her with gentle roughness?  If his
nails were clean..  {the elipsis are the authors not mine} if his breath
was sweet.. if his manners were polite and respectful- why not?  A woman
with 8 children is no nervous virgin; she is used to a man in her bed, in
her arms, in her body-- and Lazarus {hero} would have bet his last cent
that Maureen {mom} enjoyed it."

From pp. 536-545, there is a long scene where the actual incest occurs.  

Now lets look at the book "Friday", which is a main selection of the
Playboy book club.  In the first 30 odd pages The female protagonist kills
numerous "bad guys", is gang raped, tortured, has her nipple sawed off, etc
etc.  Here are a few quotes that describe the tone in which these events
happened.

P.9 -- "But why waste time raping me?.. {talk of how a woman can properly
deal with a rape}.. They had me on the floor, a gang bang with minor sadism
...{her attidute towards the rapists is portrayed in the next section}..  I
figured him for basically decent soul despite his taste for- no, aside from
is taste a bit of rape-- a taste common to most males according to the
kinseys."

It seems rather clear why this book was included as a Playboy book of the
month.  I have not personally read through the Kinsey report, but in know
others in the Psy. community who have, and to have this type of behavor
condoned and even promoted by mis-quoting the Kinseys is deporable.

Under what heading books like this belong is up to individual
interpretation, all this posting is attempting to do is describe what I see
in Heinlein's later works.  I grew up reading Starship Troopers, Waldo &
Magic inc, the Star Beast, etc. but I feel that his recent writings are
SEXIST at the very least.

Mark Interrante
CIS Department 
University of Florida  
Gainesville, FL  32611 
(904) 335-8047  
Internet:  mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 00:30:39 GMT
From: ugmalouf@sunybcs.uucp (Rob Malouf)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
>Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I
>do not wish to quibble whether a Buxom woman in a partially in zipped

I agree with some of the things you are saying.  Heinlein's recent works
seem to have a tendancy to deteriorate into a big orgy by the second half,
but, to coin a phrase, YOU CAN'T JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER!!!  Authors
generally have no control over what happens to the outside of their books.
The publishing companies design lurid, eye-catching covers to sell as many
books as possible.  The covers of Heinlein's books cannot be used as a
measure of his respect for women.

However, you can use them as a measure of society's respect for women...

Rob Malouf
Graphics Consultant                                
State University of New York at Buffalo                   
ugmalouf@cs.buffalo.edu
ACSGRPM@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
V103PDUZ@UBVMS.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 09:58:33 GMT
From: c60a-4bq@web2h.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Are these quotes from _Stranger in a Strange Land_? If so, then you are
>lucky to have read the only Heinlein novel I have ever come across that
>advocates peace and love and all-tht-hippie-stuff as the road to the
>perfect society.
>
>All the other ones use rather...well...dare I say it?...FASCIST (oooooooh
>I feel a flame attack coming on. Asbestos suit on and damn the cancer!!)
>philosophies.
>
>E.g.: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, where the idea is to "free" the
>lunar colonies by setting up a dictatorship of 3, then completely fixing
>the "elections" so these people could get who they wanted into office.
>Also, the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout the
>book is this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
>breath that they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.  Let them
>breathe vacuum."

   It would be helpful if you are more specific in your argument, instead
of declaring your view of the novel and assume the people will believe.
Give concrete examples to support your idea that Heinlein's phylosophy is
"Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad breath that they
have -- and chuch them out the nearest airlock.  Let them breathe vacume."
I, for one, didn't arive at such idea.

   Also, if you mean filling up the Consititutional Convention with allies
to pass the Lunal Constitution, as I remember, it was to prevent fools from
raping it.  In all(?) of his novels, hero(ine) is usually an ideal person,
These people, with such purity and dignity, of which I doubt real
existence, non the less exist in Heinlein's story.  It is impractical to
compare these characters to reality.

Leer

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 20:12:54 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP writes:
>>   It seems that many of you have labeled Heinlein as pornographic.  Have
>>you actually read any of his work, or are you going by what the masses
>>believe?  I have read every single novel/short story written by him...
>
>Pornographic may be too stirring a word but it is close.  I have also read
>a great many of his works.  I wish to say that not all or in fact a great
>deal of Heinlein's work goes into the near-pornographic classification,
>concentrate on his works starting in 1973 with Time Enough For Love up to
>the present.

   "Pornographic" isn't even approximate - goes off in entirely the wrong
direction. Heinlein 1st began dealing with sex explicitly in _Stranger In A
Strange Land_. He has dealt with it frequently since then. But, porn?
Heinlein characters are real big on talking about sex, but actual sex
*scenes* are infrequent. They are also poorly written (can't remember who
said it, but the best description of RAH's sex scenes I've heard is that he
wrote them as if his mother was looking over his shoulder - there's a
palpable uneasiness in all of them), and about as prurient as a ham
sandwich.

>The following books have semi-nude women on the cover:

   Oh, gosh, semi-nude women! Couple of points: first, most authors have no
control over what goes on the cover, though admittedly RAH has the clout to
be an exception. Second, while such covers may be evidence of sexism, they
hardly qualify as porn, for heaven's sake! And it's an old SF tradition.
Scantily-clad women appear frequently on the covers of SF books and
magazines, even though they may may have no sex on the inside. Let's not
get Victorian.

>Consider the first novel in this phase of his writing, Time enough For
>Love, in this novel the Hero has sex with his mother, has sex with very
>young girls (these girls are twins who are in fact cloned from him, and he
>considered them sisters), the man is immortal and has women pandering all
>over him.

   All true. So what? Are you surprised that a man who has written defenses
of cannibalism, monarchy, and flogging as a punishment for traffic
offenses, would defend incest? More to the point, are you psychic enough to
know when he's arguing for things he believes in, and when he's playing
devil's advocate? I just wonder why he hasn't dealt with bestiality yet (he
did touch on it lightly in _Glory Road_, actually).

>Under what heading books like this belong is up to individual
>interpretation, all this posting is attempting to do is describe what I
>see in Heinlein's later works. I grew up reading Starship Troopers, Waldo &
>Magic inc, the Star Beast, etc. but I feel that his recent writings are
>SEXIST at the very least.

   As I said above, the sexism charge has some merit, at least compared to
the "porn" characterization, though I mostly disagree with it, and could
make a good case against it. Look at his treatment of women in the
workplace for the other side of the story.
   I don't think there's any question that the average *quality* of his
recent books is far short of his earlier ones, but the porn
characterization reminds me of a conversation I had with some friends in
jr. high school. Best I recall, I was a fairly typical boy of that age:
head loaded with unrealized sexuality and sexism. I had loaned some friends
a copy of Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, and was, even at
that naive and dirty-minded age, bowled over to dicover that they thought
the book was "hot". There was a scene, you see, where the hero puts his
hand under the blouse of the heroine, and fondles a breast. Anyone who
finds any of RAH's books even approximately pornographic should hie
themselves to the nearest adult book store (if they're old enough) and take
a look at the real thing.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!eos!barry
barry@eos

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 07:32:58 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) says:
> The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
> Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I
> do not wish to quibble whether a Buxom woman in a partially in zipped
> tight space suit is partially nude, the attitude towardds women is clear.

1) Heinlein did not paint those covers. And, it's standard policy in the
book publishing industry that the author gets no say in the cover design.

2) An old joke in the book publishing industry is: "How do you tell a
sci-fi novel from a fantasy novel? A: In a fantasy novel, the semi-clad
woman on the cover is wearing a bronze bikini. On a sci-fi novel, the
bikini is chrome."

That is to say, boxom semi-clad women in chrome bikinis are, alas, an
ancient science fiction cliche', dating back to pulp days.

> Consider the first novel in this phase of his writing, Time enough For
> Love, in this novel the Hero has sex with his mother, has sex with very
> young girls (these girls are twins who are in fact cloned from him, and
> he considered them sisters), the man is immortal and has women pandering
> all over him.

Are you saying that sex is bad? Are you saying that sex is evil? Are you
saying anything at all? And you're totally ignoring _Stranger in a Strange
Land_ (1963), which had (gasp!) GROUP ORGIES! GAWD. Call out the Jerry
Falwell Morality Patrol!

I agree that Heinlein's attitudes towards women are strongly biased by the
fact that when he was born, the Model T was just a gleam in Henry Ford's
eyes, and the Great Depression was nearly 30 years in the future. But he
still had a lot to say about puritanical, outmoded attitudes about sex,
even if you aren't willing to listen. Too bad that a lot of what he had to
say was rendered obsolete by the '60s.... what was unthinkable in 1963,
would be merely daring, today.

> Under what heading books like this belong is up to individual
> interpretation, all this posting is attempting to do is describe what I
> see in Heinlein's later works.  I grew up reading Starship Troopers,
> Waldo & Magic inc, the Star Beast, etc. but I feel that his recent
> writings are SEXIST at the very least.

It's interesting to note that the novel later released as "Stranger in a
Strange Land" (group orgies and all that, remember?) was well under way
when he temporarily dropped it to work on his patriotic tome, "Starship
Troopers" (his response to the leftist anti-military people of the world).

Heinlein veered from left to right and back again so many times in his
career, that you'd need a scorecard to keep track of it all. Heinlein
apparently wasn't dogmatic about anything, except his respect for
individual freedom.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191        
Lafayette, LA 70509              
ihnp4!killer!elg
elg@usl.CSNET

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 4 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Brust & Card (2 msgs) & Dick &
                          Eddings (3 msgs) & Effinger & Kurtz &
                          Moorcock & Saberhagen & Schmitz &
                          Titles Wanted

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 18:13:03 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

srt@aero.UUCP (Scott R. Turner) writes:
>peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>That revolution in that society is about as likely as a libertarian
>>revolution in 1980's America.
>
>You can't simply pack up your 20th century notions and drop them into a
>fantasy world.  The actions and philosophies should arise from context.

I think this opinion comes from a failure to appreciate the kind of society
that Brust has drawn in these books.  It is *not* a generic medieval
fantasy background.  Generic medieval fantasy backgrounds don't have
oganized gangs, for example.

A second point worth making is that these are *not* 20th century
revolutionary notions.  They are 19th century revolutionary notions.  Now,
the 19th century is not the 15th century, but is equally not the 20th
century (and I do mean equally).  And the conditions in Draegara are more
like 19th century Europe than they are like either 15th or 20th century
Europe.  (Not that it is all that much like any of them.)

Now, without rereading the books (which I will eventually do), I don't
really have an opinion as to whether the kind of revolution described in
Tekla is really plausible in the society Brust has described.  But the
notion is certainly not preposterous.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 21:22:30 GMT
From: srt@aero.uucp
Subject: Re: Card's kids

randy@ncifcrf.gov (The Computer Grue) writes:
>dml@hutch.UUCP (David Langdon) writes:
>>	Does anyone know why Orson Scott Card likes to write stories where
>>the main character(s) are children.
>    Good question; have you noticed that he also tends to subject
>these children to severe, damaging pressures and see what happens?

There are good literary reasons for using children in stories.  Often, they
act as icons of innocence.  Sometimes they are foils or mirrors for other
characters.  In the case of OSC's books, you should note that his child
characters always grow up, molded by and molding the society as they do so.
This is true for Mikhail's Songbird, Ender and (presumably) Alvin.  OSC's
short stories are typically the conflict-based outtakes from the early
parts of each of these stories, so the fact that they show children under
damaging pressures without the balance of seeing them grow up is anomalous.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 20:41:38 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Wyrms (was: Card's kids)

I've been told that Wyrms is one of Cards earlier works, previously
unpublishable.  I don't know whether that's true, but it's plausible.

Wyrms is a quest fantasy with some science-fictional trappings.  The
protagonist is one of Cards Thoroughly Educated and Highly Magnified
children.  When we encounter her at the age of thirteen she is already a
trained diplomat.  She has also been trained as an assassin, since
assassination is sometimes one of the diplomat's arts.

The book quickly succumbs to power fantasy.  It doesn't take us long to
note that it is diplomacy which is one of the assassin's arts.  There are,
in fact, a number of occasions in the book which call for diplomacy -- and
each time, reliably, out comes the garrot.

The quest itself makes quite good reading, for about two thirds of the
book.  Then we start getting answers to the planet's mysteries.  And the
answers are silly.

Card completists will want this book -- but wait till it appears as a used
paperback.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 18:56:45 GMT
From: CERMNMS@technion.bitnet (Michael Silverstein)
Subject: Phillip K. Dick

I was going through my PKD collection and was struck by the fact that I did
not have a definitive list of what he published, and thus I don't know what
is missing.

Does anyone out there have a list?

Here is what I came up with so far:
(in no particular order)

Confessions of a Crap Artist
The Crack in Space
The Zap Gun
Our Friends from Frolix 8
Dr. Futurity
The World Jones Made
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep
Martian Time Slip
The Man in High Castle
The 3 Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch
The Unteleported Man (old and new endings)
Clans of the Alphane Moon
We Can Build You
Ubik
Vulcan's Hammer
Valis
Flow my Tears, the Policeman Said
The Turning Wheels (stories)
Galactic Pot Healer
The Penultimate Truth
The Man Who Japed
The Golden Man
Dr. Bloodmoney
Eye in the Sky
Solar Lottery
The Divine Invasion
Deus Irae
A Handful of Darkness
The Simulacra
World of Chance
The Variable Man (stories)
Counter-Clock World
Now Wait for Last Year
The Game Players of Titan
The Transmigration of Timothy Archer
Radio Free Ablemuth (sp?)
A Scanner Darkly

Not in my collection or escaped through friends:

Mary and the Giant (?)
book of short stories released recently
Kadosh (?)

I would appreciate any information about the PKD books that I've missed.

I suspect at least one of the above (World of Chance) is a different title
for a book already listed.

Thanks a bunch,

Mike
CERMNMS@TECHNION

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 04:11:09 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Unicorn)
Subject: Re: Malloreon

MORGAN%FM1@sc.intel.COM (Morgan Mussell) writes:
>kyre@reed.uucp (Erik Gorka)  writes (re: Eddings):
>>  If anybody knows anything about Reed College, you'll know where he got
>>all the different types of people and geographic areas, as well as the
>>types of personalities. We have a class called Humanities 110 (all the
>>freshman take it) which covers the time periods from Ancient Greece
>>(Homer) to the Middle Ages (Dante)...
>
>Just had to respond to this since I took those classes 20 years ago.  But
>I don't buy the idea that Eddings is doing anything as trivial as creating
>a mere allegory of period and place.  Bare facts have been churned into
>some- thing new in his imagination.  Just as the characters are painted in
>larger- than-stereotype colors, so the nature of the lands is exagerated
>beyond the point where it's interesting to seek veiled references to
>historical specifics.

  No, I wasn't suggesting any of the above. I only stated that these places
were conceived by these classes, as well as the basic personality types. As
far as I'm concerned, Eddings has created places and people with little
relation to classes that he took beyond the basic ideas. If he wanted to go
strictly by the rules, then there would have been a conflict of cultures
long ago among the different countries of his world. What he has created
instead is a world that interacts using entirely different concepts than
those known in the historical literature. In other worlds, although
similarities abound, the final product was not meant to represent the
original products in any way, shape, or form.
  Though I must admit that Mandorellan(sp?) resembles a typical knight from
Chretien de Troyes to closely for comfort...8+)

Erik

P.S. For any Reedies reading this, my father, when he had my copy of the
_King of the Murgos_ signed by Eddings himself, talked to him briefly, and
Eddings said that Reed was one of the four hardest years of his life. Maybe
that should tell us something, huh? 8+)

Erik Gorka
Box 233
Reed College
Portland OR  97202
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 88 16:28:14 GMT
From: chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Ri-Zhong Chiu)
Subject: Re: Mallorean

garrow@GATEWAY.MITRE.ORG writes:
>Durnik, in the first series was termed the "Man who would die twice."
>Since he is now a "Sorcerer" it would stand to reason that he is the one
>who will die.

Actually Durnik is the "man with two lives."  He was only called the man
who would die twice by Garion who I think was misquoting the fortune teller
who had told Durnik of his fate on Faldor's Farm. (In _Pawn_of_ Prophecy_).
It's possible Durnik will die again but the Seeress and everyone else
Prophecy related calls Durnik the "man who lives twice" so I'd tend to
think someone else is doomed to die.

>Chuchik (I don't have the book with me so I'm not sure of the spelling)
>was unmade? because he tried to make the Orb "be not".  Zedar is still
>alive somewhere entombed in rock.  Belgareth is known as the eternal man.
>I'm beginning to seriously wonder if Durnik is a goner.  Stephanie Garrow

Yes, Ctuchik was unmade, but that would mean that Polgara, Belgarath, etc.
could also be be unmade.  Although, Belgarath's labeling as the "Eternal
Man" would tend to make one think he will live.  How about Zedar joining
the party somewhere in Mallorea as the "Empty One."

Timothy Chiu
University of Pennsylvania
chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
chiu@neural-vlsi.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 19:02:32 GMT
From: chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Ri-Zhong Chiu)
Subject: Re: Malloreon Odds

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Leonard Abbot) writes:
>jpbion%minnesota@Sun.COM (Joel Bion) writes:
>> 
>>  Small correction: Durnik is the man WITH TWO LIVES, not the man
>>  who died twice. 
>
>	"Don't neglect the other prophecies just because they aren't the
>Mrin Codex."  In other words, the seer who told Durnik's fortune said that
>he would die twice.  However, it seems more like he will die of old age,
>after all.

Actually, we don't know exactly what the seer said, all we know is that
Garion *said* that the seer *said* that Durnik would die twice.  I would
tend to think that Garion misquoted the fortune teller, and even Cyradis
calls Durnik the man with two lives (and it seems Cyradis knows everything
:-)).

Timothy Chiu                   
University of Pennsylvania     
chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu      
chiu@neural-vlsi.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 14:55:36 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: New Fantasy Writers (and Effinger)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>By "the Effinger book," I assume you mean "When Gravity Fails." Has anyone
>brought this up before? I was out of sf-lovers for a while, so I may have
>missed the discussion. Mostly, it is a high-tech detective story, with a
>great setting, great characters, and very good plot.

I suppose I am going to be the odd one out again.

I found this book a good demonstration on how to write a book with as few
idead as possible.

Two totally over-riding themes are hammered home time and time again while
the main character sort of wanders about in a few streets in a
casbah/ghetto.

Those themes are drug taking and wiring up people's brains.

They are hammered home so many times that I felt in a sort of time loop
re-reading the same passages and phrases and reactions and phrases and
passages and phrases and passages.

Did I mention there was a lot of drug taking.

Oh! and a lot about wiring people up and wearing
personalities.

And a lot about drug taking.

Just to make it different to the usual Cyberpunk clone, there is a
middle-eastern setting, and a lot of muttering in Arabic and quoting from
the Koran.

The whole "detective story" is tidily disposed of in a few paragraphs. All
the rest of the book is about wiring people up and taking drugs.

There were a number of ideas introduced which might have brought the story
to life, but they were dropped with no attempts to expand on them. (e.g.
the double socket instead of the normal single)

A very disappointing book. It would have made a good short story. The
author could have covered his two themes, wiring people up and taking
drugs, without all the excess padding.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 20:48:23 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz / Deryni novels

DEGSUSM@yalevm.BITNET writes:

>I don't know why Rhys and Evaine's daughter makes it out of this alive; I
>don't think she had her powers blocked, since Morgan and Duncan's mothers
>are presumably descended from her (although not necessarily; there is
>enough time for another generation to be born before the whole family gets
>killed off), and they were fully functioning Deryni, aware of their
>ancestry.  Maybe she was only blocked temporarily?

  Thanks Susan. Since it came straight from the author's mouth, your
article sounds pretty authoritative. As for Rhys and Evaine's daughter, she
could have had her powers severed and still passed on the Deryni trait to
her children. Just losing the use of the power shouldn't affect her ability
to pass it on, since it's in the genes (presumably). Just the same way that
a person who's lost their sight can still have sighted children. But as to
whether she would be able to hand down any sort of Deryni training to her
descendants, you're right, it does seem pretty unlikely if she wasn't
practicing herself.  

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 14:37:05 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk 
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock, Dancers at the end of time.

derek@geac.UUCP (Derek Keeping) writes:
>A few years ago a SF book club sent me a series of Moorcock books titled
>"Dancers at the end of time". I have since heard that there is a forth
>book in the series, but I have no idea of the title.
>
>The main character of the book was Jerry Cornelius but the story
>didn't seem to be related to any of the other Jerry Cornealious novels by
>Moorcock.
[stuff deleted]

Does anyone know anymore about Jerry Cornelius ? I seem to remember reading
something several years ago, but I sort of remember that he is undead or
something like that.

Anyone know anything more ?
Thanks in advance,

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 88 17:58:47 GMT
From: fiddler@concertina.uucp
Subject: Re: Magician's Law

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
> BRIAN@qucdnast.BITNET writes:
>
>   In Fred Saberhagen's first "Book of Swords" trilogy, the gods are
> playing power games with the humans. It was never made completely clear,
> but I got the impression that it is a far future earth, which has
> declined to the dark ages and is starting to rise again.

The collection "Empire of the East" sets the groundwqork for the "Book of
Swords" set.  It most definitely is in the future, and things are not as
you would at first assume...I just saw it again at a local bookstore, so
you can get it paper. I like the way Saberhagen handles magic, especially
how dealing with demons affects humans.  (You *really* want to avoid them
if you can.)

> The Greek gods (or were they going by their Roman names?) 

Roman.  More familiar to most readers.

> have commissioned Hephaestus to create 12 unique swords of great
> power,...
> 
>   Has anyone tried reading the "Book of Lost Swords" trilogy? I think the
> first two are out now.

I just finished the first one ("Woundhealer's Story"), and I want to jump
directly into the next ("Sightblinder's Story")...but I'll either wait
until it shows in paper or the local library gets it.  I like what I've
read so far, but the price...!

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 22:12:32 GMT
From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com
Subject: James Schmitz's Federation

   In "Demon Breed" (which appeared in Analog under the title of "Trouble
Tide") Schmitz has some discussion of the human government in his universe.
As I remember it, there were a couple basic aims.  One was to keep things
relatively calm above a planetary level.  Another was to encourage an
environment to toughen the species.  (Were there any other basic aims?)
The government wasn't trying to protect the individual, but wanted to
individual to protect itself.  The professor's belief was that the long
term goal was to make mankind, as a species, very tough.  Was there any
other stories in which James Schmitz talked about the role of government?
   Thanks.
   Have a good day.

Henry Cate III
uucp:	...ucbvax!xerox.com!cate3.pa
Arpanet: cate3.pa@Xerox.Com

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 20:50:15 GMT
From: russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: Titles wanted

Would someone please tell me the titles of the books featuring the Cobras
(and Blackcollars?)?  I'd like to read them.

Also, who did the poem 'I Dream of a World of Electronic Grace', or
something similar?  I'd like to read that again.

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St
Omro WI 54963
russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 4 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:

	     Miscellaneous - Choose Your Universe (15 msgs) &
                             SF Slang

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 21:03:29 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Choose Your Universe!

    Enough of the flame wars. Here's a new topic to entertain us. If you
could live in the "world" developed by any sf or fantasy author, which one
would it be? The question is specifically the world, not the character, or
even your position in that world, although we'll assume you'll be part of
one of the important races at least. You can also choose the time period.
So, if you say you want to be in Herbert's "Dune" universe, during the
"Chapterhouse" era, you may be a Bene Gesserit reverend mother, or you may
be an ignorant peasant. If you say that you want Melissa Scott's hegemony,
you could again be a ruler, or an oppressed commoner, or a starship pilot.
Or in Thieves' World, you could be a master thief, or a palace guard, or a
temple servant. The world is the important thing.

   For myself, I'd have to choose Proton, from Anthony's "Apprentice Adept"
series (no Anthony flames, please!). Sure, there isn't a lot of chance to
better your station, but even though they have few rights, the serfs are
pretty well off. As long as you don't get a citizen angry with you, you've
got pretty much free run. Everyone is your equal, except in one area, which
is the part that would really attract me: The Game. The idea of having a
virtually infinite number of ways to challenge others, and be challenged,
with only your own skills to rely on, would provide me with almost
everything I could ask. And, considering how important a part the Game
plays in Proton society, there would be no lack of resources to refine
one's physical, mental, and artistic abilities. The only drawback, really,
is that you have to leave after 30 years, and I don't know what the rest of
the universe is like.  

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 00:10:57 GMT
From: c60c-5aa@web1b.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>    Enough of the flame wars. Here's a new topic to entertain us. If you
>could live in the "world" developed by any sf or fantasy author, which one
>would it be? The question is specifically the world, not the character, or
>even your position in that world, although we'll assume you'll be part of
>one of the important races at least. You can also choose the time period.

I discovered at once that a lot of the worlds I like contain a lot of
people who I wouldn't want to be!

I guess I'll have to vote for either Julian May's Pliocene Earth or the
world of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light, despite the fact that the oppressed
classes on both worlds are in a mighty bad position.  But the sheer color,
the diversity, the chance of meeting (even *being*) one of those who are
like unto gods....

I also like both sf and fantasy, and both of those settings are on the
borderline between.  Is that cheating?

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 06:33:12 GMT
From: dgiles@polyslo.uucp (Darren Giles)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>    Enough of the flame wars. Here's a new topic to entertain us. If you
>could live in the "world" developed by any sf or fantasy author, which one
>would it be? ...
> 
>   For myself, I'd have to choose Proton, from Anthony's "Apprentice
>Adept" series (no Anthony flames, please!). Sure, there isn't a lot of
>chance to better your station, but even though they have few rights, the
>serfs are pretty well off. As long as you don't get a citizen angry with
>you, you've got pretty much free run.

   Proton looks pretty good superficially, but I wouldn't take the part of
a serf in any world... especially Proton.  The serfs have no rights -
anything a citizen tells them to do is a command.
   This includes the ability of a citizen to hire a serf for sexual
purposes...  regardless of whether the serf is interested, or even whether
the serf is of the opposite sex.  None for me, thanks!

   Myself, of all the worlds I've read about, I'd probably choose Star
Trek.  Primitive settings are interesting, but the annoying details like no
cures for diseases and no proper sanitation would get one your nerves after
a while.  On second thought, Julian May's future world discussed in
_The_Many-Colored_ Land_ sounds pretty good...
   Speaking of which, there's supposed to be a companion series set
entirely in the Gallactic Milleau.  Does anyone know what it's called, or
whether it's available?

Darren

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 07:32:43 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

For the sheer decadence, I'd choose the Earth of The Dancers at the End of
Time, by Moorcock.

Revealing, eh?

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 88 09:46:41 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

   I would most definitely opt for Majipoor, the incredibly huge planet
that's depicted in Silverberg's trilogy.  The planet is agriculturally
prosperous, has soothing dreams make your sleep comfortable (unless you're
a criminal!), many alien beings to interact with, and a very peaceful and
stable society on the whole.  It's an adventurer's dreamland.  On the other
hand, if you want stability, become a farmer! Crop yields are good.  The
baroque cities and varied culture make it a good place to live socially
too.

   Second choice would be Ringworld.  Again, the huge space is the key
allure.  However, I wouldn't want to go there without a lot of
technological gadgetry that isn't native to the inhabitants of Ringworld.
So this really isn't an endorsement for 'natural' living style on
Ringworld.  It's nice to visit but I wouldn't want to be born on it.

   Ahh, you've hit a chord on some sf-lovers' hearts.  To be able to live
in an alternative world, wouldn't that be grand?

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP:  {rutgers, att, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai 
Bitnet:   vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet 
Internet: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com 

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 11:48:45 GMT
From: sfbt@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (S Tett)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

John Varley's universe please. (as in Blue Champagne, Barbie Murders etc.)
(But preferably not as an illegal clone.)

Claire Jones

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 12:00:47 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

Henlein's Number of the Beast universe.

Then you can have the best of all possible universes.

And no flames please.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 16:56:44 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu.UUCP writes:
>Well, it depends on my mood.  Gut Reaction: Star Trek (Stafleet Officer).
>After a little thought: Pern (Dragonrider or Harper) After more thought:
>Stasheff's DDT (SCENT Agent or GRIPE Operative)

Not bad. It only took two replies for someone to totally ignore the point
of the original question :-). Oh well, I was kind of hoping this would
happen, since it'll make for some discussion. My question was, which
UNIVERSE, not which CHARACTER.

So, you want to join the Star Trek universe (already in progress...)?
Sounds pretty good. I think everyone in human society there has it pretty
easy, good education, ample food supplies, etc. Unless you consider all
those colonies that have collapsed and fallen under the rule of some petty
dictator...

Or maybe Pern? I have to admit, being a dragonrider is one of my favorite
fantasy lives. But when you put yourself on Pern, you could just as well
end up as a farmer, living in terror of threadfall, or a mistreated thrall
in someone's kitchen. And even if you get to be a dragonrider, what do you
do when there's no thread? Remember, in the first book, how much the common
folk resented the dragonriders?

Don't know anything about Stasheff's worlds.

It's really hard to find a fantasy/sf world where the common people live
decent lives, I think.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 03:15:34 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

If I had to choose a universe, it would have to be Brunner's "Shockwave
Rider".

Come to think of it, maybe I already have....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 20:46:08 GMT
From: kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel Kamens)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

First, I must apologize for any breach of netiquette - this is my first
posting to usenet.  I'll do my best to get it right.

Now, as to what universe I'd choose if I had my druthers, there are a few:

1) Xanth - I have always been intrigued by magic, and it would be great to
   have my own particular magical ability.  Of course, I would probably
   have the amazing ability to turn on a light at will, or something
   equally fantastic :-), but I'd love to be a magician.  Seems like pretty
   much everybody is happy there, too. (This is, of course, the
   "well-written" Xanth :-) - All you Anthony haters, please don't flame
   :-) :-).

2) Pern - As others have said, I would love to be a dragon rider.  I don't
   know if I'd like being a drudge in the kitchens, however.

3) Asimov's Foundation - Being a computer geek, the way the computers work
   via direct mind link always intrigued me, as well as the fantastic
   technology.

4) Amber - Traveling through Shadow is fascinating.  I don't think this
   really presupposes anything about who you are - everybody we really know
   in Amber is one of the royal family.

Any responses?

Sam Kamens
University of Pennsylvania
kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 19:50:22 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

Peter Granger writes:
>My question was, which UNIVERSE, not which CHARACTER.

But the position you're in generally would make far more difference than
the world. Although there are world's I'd specifically list that I'd want
to avoid, regardless of the character I was (e.g. Captain America meets
Thor).

To give an answer anyway: 1 billion years in the past of The City and the
Stars by Arthur C. Clarke (second edition: Against the Fall of the Night),
during the golden age. Sounds like everyone had it pretty good, so that'd
be relatively safe.

Or: The Man Who Folded Himself. Then it wouldn't matter *who* you were --
no matter where you went, there you'd be! :-) :-) :-)

Or the world of Jinian Footseer (or other books in that world by Sheri S.
Tepper), just because it's so surrealistic and interesting.

>Oh well, I was kind of hoping this would happen, since it'll make for some
>discussion.

Oh. Well, in *that* case I'd want to be one of the emerging Homo Novis in
Heinlein's novelette Gulf.

Or one of the People in Zenna Henderson's Pilgramage.

Or someone in the know and wealthy sometime not long before the asymptotic
singularity in the future of Vernor Vinge's Peace War (actually described
as the past of the sequel but I forgot its name).

Or from Simak: Blaine in Time is the Simplest Thing, or Peter Maxwell in
The Goblin Reservation, or Andrew Blake in The Werewolf Principle.

Or the protagonist in Keith Laumer's The Ultimax man, in which case I'd
damn well stay on Earth after getting enhanced. BTW I loved the initial
part of that book, as serialized in Analog, and rushed to buy it in
hardback. Very disappointing to find that 100% of the new, unserialized
material was junk. Apparently he was just writing filler after that to
bring it up to full novel length to meet a deadline. Some might like it;
it's pretty similar to other stuff Laumer has done, but it sure is a
drastic departure from the style of the original serialized portion. Comes
across as chaotic, with deus ex machina up the ying yang.  Doubtless many
readers thought he did this carefully and on purpose, but I'd lay odds on
the deadline theory.

Also surprised at strongly positive comments recently about Melissa Scott's
The Kindly Ones. It was my least favorite of her books, and low on my list
in general. Funny how much tastes differ. The book has certain really
obvious problems, but as usual people's ratings of the *importance* of
literary problems varies radically.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 20:04:41 GMT
From: tom@iconsys.uucp (Tom Kimpton)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

For me, at least, I don't think I could divorce a world read of in a story
from the characters in the story.  The premise of this news thread being
that you would be plunked down at random into the world of your choice.
For every character of interest, there must be a supporting cast of great
magnitude, we're talking of someone on the way far end of the bell curve.
If we're plunked down at random, more than likely we're going to be in the
great crowd of extras. Personally I'm content being the extra I am, with
the comforts I'm used to.  However, if you could cast me in an heroic mold:
a "warlock" from "True Names" (Vernor Vinge), a "citizen" of Precipice from
"The Shockwave Rider" (John Brunner), a "songbird" from "Songmaster" (Orson
Scott Card), a "Star Fleet Science" officer (maybe I'd need some cosmetic
surgery :-), an "Amberite" (Roger Zelazny), a "dancer" from "The Star
Dancers" (I'm not sure on this title) (Spider Robinson), and many others.

Tom Kimpton
Software Development Engineer
Icon International, Inc.       
Orem, Utah 84058               
(801) 225-6888
UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,caeco,nrc-ut}!iconsys!ron
ARPANET: icon%byuadam.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
BITNET: icon%byuadam.bitnet 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 12:17:02 GMT
From: flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

Any of Clarke's up-beat worlds.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk
sheridan@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 06:34:58 GMT
From: yamauchi@SPEECH2.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

My first choice would be Niven's Known Space universe, in the Beowulf
Schaeffer period (after the introduction of boosterspice and before the
Teela gene makes things boring).  Known Space has everything -- freedom,
prosperity, technology, interstellar travel, and plenty of opportunities
for adventure.  All you have to do, to paraphrase Niven, is be reckless
enough to get into trouble and smart enough to get out of it.

Closer to home, I would pick Vernor Vinge's anarchocapitalist world of "The
Ungoverned" (between "The Peace War" and "Marooned in Real Time").

Living in Gibson's Sprawl could also be interesting.  Even if you start off
on the street, there are opportunities for action and upward mobility.....
Assuming you survive, of course.

To answer the question you didn't ask:

If I could choose the role, it would be a prince of Amber.  Then you can
have any world that you can imagine.  Better yet, a prince of both Amber
and Chaos, like Merlin.  Then you have sorcery as well.  In addition, you
never age, heal quickly from injuries and diseases that would be fatal to
humans, and you have a very interesting set of relatives :-).

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
INTERNET:    yamauchi@speech2.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 21:26:53 GMT
From: db@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (D Berry)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

>   This includes the ability of a citizen to hire a serf for sexual
>purposes...  regardless of whether the serf is interested, or even whether
>the serf is of the opposite sex.  None for me, thanks!

I really don't understand you monosexuals.  If some people are doing
something to you and you don't want them to, what difference does their sex
make?

Speaking of choosing and sex, I'd agree with Claire and choose the universe
of John Varley's 'Blue Champagne', 'Picnic on Nearside', etc.  Second
choice, Samuel Delany's 'Triton'.  Hey -- I wonder if they're the same ...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 08:45:00 GMT
From: quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no (Kai Quale)
Subject: SF slang

Living in Norway, and not having a lot to do with the local fandom, I have
trouble with some of the terms used by American fans. What's the definition
of "filk" ? And what is Neutron Dance and Japanese Animation ? CONGENIAL
boasted : "Filking...Hucksters...Fan Room...Silly Bathing Suit Contest...".
These sound to me like good ideas for a Monty PyCon.

Kai Quale
quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 5 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Adams & Effinger & Moorcock &
                           Simak & Vance (3 msgs) & 
                           Non-Quest Fantasy

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 02:08:05 GMT
From: c164-1bk@ophelia.uucp
Subject: Re: New Douglas Adams?


>> There IS a 5th Hitchhiker's Guide book, at least in this country, but
>> it's not part of the trilogy.  It contains the complete scripts of the
>> radio series (including some scenes not in any other book) and came out
>> about 2 - 3 years ago.  I can find out more details if anyone shows the
>> slightest interest.  Colin.
>Hmmm, when I read this, my left eyebrow raised up ever so slightly.  This
>may be interpreted as a sign of interest.
>
>Please, find out more details!

It's called "The Original Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Radio Scripts",
and I have a copy at home. The radio program had a LOT of scenes which
didn't appear in the books, including differences in continuity. There are
also hilarious advertisements, "tune in next week" lines, and musical/sound
effect related gags.

I'll post more info and a few lines from it in a day or two.

>while the subject's on the screen, I happened across a book called The
>Complete and Unabridged Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or some such
>facsimile.  It was a good sized imitation leatherbound, and contained the
>4 book trilogy and another shortie called Young Zaphod something or other.
>what do you think?  Is this book really worth buying?

The book is not really worth buying, unless you are buying a gift for
someone who doesn't yet have the series.  The short story, Young Zapod
Saves the Day really doesn't say much, and is too short; it really doesn't
measure up to the other books and is not worth buying the set for.  It does
have one really great Douglas-Adams-mentality idea (like the Bugblatter
Beast, Sirius Cybernetics, and Genuine People Personalities); if you don't
plan on buying the book, read the following spoiler:

WARNING: spoiler of "Young Zaphod Saves the Day" follows...

Sometime back in galactic history, there was a great energy crisis.
Populations were expanding beyond belief, creating a demand for far more
energy than could be produced with current technology. Time was running out
when a young scientist came up with a brilliant idea: there was ONE PLACE
where you could find all the energy anybody could ever want, where the
people weren't using this energy efficiently and most of it was being
wasted, and where you could steal this energy from them and nobody would be
the wiser.  This place, of course, was THE PAST!  So, he came up with an
invention which stole energy from the past, (say, 1000 years ago) when
people didn't really need as much energy anyway.

As you can imagine, this invention was a tremendous success. Soon, there
were thousands of power plants around the galaxy producing cheap,
pollution-free, space-efficient power with this invention. The Galactibanks
were predicting a tremendous economic boom, but soon it was realized that
EVEN THOUGH huge amounts of power were being produced, it wasn't nearly
enough, and somehow (though nobody could figure out how), each new power
plant was failing to remedy the situation. It was almost as if there was a
tremendous drain in the system, and somehow the power wasn't getting to
where it was supposed to.

The solution was the final realization that these power plants were
destined to be enormously popular, and people 1000 years in the future were
draining OUR time.

Only one solution was possible. Laws were quickly passed outlawing the new
technology and all the power plants were dismantled and destroyed. The
plans were destroyed and the inventor and all the engineers who understood
the plans were killed.  Immediately, the mysterious power drain disappeared
and there was in fact more than enough power being generated by
conventional means to meet the needs of society.  Strict laws now make it a
capital offense to even THINK about doing additional research in this area.

That was the ONE truly warped, Douglas-Adams-worthy idea in "Young Zaphod"

Glen Raphael
c164-1bk@bard.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 14:26:56 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: New Fantasy Writers (and Effinger)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
> [...] "When Gravity Fails." [...]  anyone brought this up before? I was
> out of sf-lovers for a while, so I Mostly, it is a high-tech detective
> story, with a great setting, great characters, and very good plot.
> Reminded me a little of the movie "Blade Runner."

This counter-review contains spoilers.

It reminded me a *little* of "Blade Runner" also, but only a little.  As to
"great setting, great characters, and very good plot", I'd have to
disagree. First, the general technology of the setting (the details of how
moddies and their daddies work, how they are used, and the results of their
use) was very hard for me to suspend disbelief for.  These technological
details kept jumping out at me (eg: in the middle of a mortal conflict
which you are losing badly, I doubt you will have time to find your
killer-ninja daddie in your wallet or pants pocket and insert it in the
appropriate cranial slot, as happened twice in the book).

Second, the characters were cardboard, for the most part.  The only
interesting one was the "godfather" figure of the Budayeen (possible sp?),
and we only see this person for a few short scenes.  The protagonist was a
total wimp, uninteresting as a hero, and without any interesting features
to make him interesting as an anti-hero.  He just sort of drifts along with
the plot.  Speaking of which:

Third, the plot draaaaaaaaaaaaags on and on.  We get the idea very early on
that there is an enhanced killer going around making trouble, and that
there are mysterious circumstances involved.  But nothing much happens
except for Our Hero getting intoxicated, recovering enough to hear about
the latest murder, and then getting intoxicated again.  Finally forced into
acting, he gets a Nero Wolfe moddie (of all the ridiculous things, given
the fact that such a moddie would make you *think* you were smart without
actually giving you any additional abilities, and the hero was at least
marginally aware of this fact) and plays masturbatory detective-games that
lead nowhere before he finally simply uses (and then over-uses) his
ultimate-enhancement- weapon/trump-card to off the bad guys.  *This* is a
*plot*?

Effinger does have a good turn of phrase (eg: The Stones that Walk), and a
flair for description (the ghetto came at least partly alive for me), but
all in all, I couldn't give it more than a *+ or **.

But many people seem to think differently.  Can anybody tell me why they
disagree with my assessment in a little more detail?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 14:37:05 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk 
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock, Dancers at the end of time.

derek@geac.UUCP (Derek Keeping) writes:
>A few years ago a SF book club sent me a series of Moorcock books titled
>"Dancers at the end of time". I have since heard that there is a forth
>book in the series, but I have no idea of the title.
>
>The main character of the book was Jerry Cornelius but the story
>didn't seem to be related to any of the other Jerry Cornealious novels by
>Moorcock.
[stuff deleted]

Does anyone know anymore about Jerry Cornelius ? I seem to remember reading
something several years ago, but I sort of remember that he is undead or
something like that.

Anyone know anything more ?
Thanks in advance,

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 05:28:19 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: NY Times Simak obituary

[From the NY Times, April 28, 1988] 
 
CIFFORD D. SIMAK, 83, JOURNALIST AND SCIENCE-FICTION WRITER, DIES 
 
MINNEAPOLIS, April 27 (AP) - Clifford Donald Simak, a newspaperman and an
award-winning writer of science fiction, died Monday at Riverside Medical
Center in Minneapolis.  He was 83 years old.
 
Mr. Simak wrote more than two dozen novels, several nonfiction science
books and hundreds of short stories during his 37-year career as reporter,
city desk editor and science editor for The Minneapolis Star and The
Minneapolis Tribune.
 
Among his better-known titles are "City," published in 1952; "Way Station"
(1963); "The Visitors" (1979) and "Skirmish: the Great Short Fiction of
Clifford D. Simak," comprising stories he published from 1944 to 1975.
 
He received three Hugo awards, regarded as the Oscar of science-fiction
writing, and three Science Fiction Association of America Nebula Awards,
including the Grand National in recognition of his entire collection of
work.  He was inducted into the Science Fiction Hall of Fame in 1973.
 
Mr. Simak was born on a farm in southwestern Wisconsin and attended the
University of Wisconsin for a short time.  He taught school for several
years before taking the first of several newspaper jobs in 1929.  He began
his career with the Star and the Tribune in 1939.
 
Many science-fiction writers wrote of invincible supermen, but Mr. Simak
wrote about common people who didn't always win.
 
"I have tried at times to place humans in perspective against the vastness
of universal time and space," he once said.  "I have been concerned with
where we, as a race, may be going and what may be our purpose in the
universal scheme - if we have a purpose.
 
"In general, I believe we do, and perhaps an important one." 
 
Mr Simak's wife of 56 years, Agnes, died in 1985.  He is survived by a
daughter, a son, and a brother.

End of Times article.

It is nice that the Times has taken note of Simak's contributions (they
failed to do so for Alfred Bester,) but I couldn't help but notice the
number of typical inaccuracies in the the piece:

He received three Hugo awards, regarded as the Oscar of science-fiction
writing, and three Science Fiction Association of America Nebula Awards,
including the Grand National in recognition of his entire collection of
work.  He was inducted into the Science Fiction Hall of Fame in 1973.

The SFAA?  And I assume they're referring to the Grand Master Award.  And
finally, as if the SF Hall of Fame were something other than a series of
books, with contents voted upon by key SFWAn's...

Of course the credits for his newspaper career were accurate...

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 07:51:09 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

geb@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU (Gordon E. Banks) says:
> Jack Vance has written quite a bit of fantasy as well as SF.  I don't
> recall too many quests in his stories.  Start with "The Dying Earth" and
> "Eyes of the Overworld".  His protagonists are what are known in Spanish
> as "piqueros" (sort of a likable rogue).

NOT TOO MANY QUESTS???? You must be talking about a different "Eyes of the
Overworld" than the one that *I* read. The whole book revolved around our
very UNlikable rogue's attempts to get some magic item or another and make
it back to his homeland where some wizard would trade the item for removing
a curse from Cudgel. That's called a QUEST, in case you haven't looked up
the definition recently.  During the quest, Cudgel rapes a bunch of people,
kills all his friends, treats everybody like the cardboard mannikens that
they are, and in general is a very nasty and despicable character. I
wouldn't trust anybody who likes Cudgel around dogs or small children.  Add
in episodic plotting that reminds me of the old serials (where every
"episode" had to be nearly self-contained), and you can understand why I
have never been able to muster the energy to read any other work by Jack
Vance.  There's too many other authors out there that I haven't read, to
waste my time on hackneyed plots, cardboard characters, and despicable
taste. Maybe that particular book was social satire of some sort. But if
so, it was awefully well disguised.

So tell me: Are "Eyes of the Overworld" and "The Dragon Masters" typical of
Jack Vance? Am I wise in avoiding such a waste of my time?

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191        
Lafayette, LA 70509              
elg@usl.CSNET
ihnp4!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 07:42:06 GMT
From: till@didsgn.uucp (didsgn)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

 elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
> So tell me: Are "Eyes of the Overworld" and "The Dragon Masters" typical
> of Jack Vance? Am I wise in avoiding such a waste of my time?

Depends on what turns you on!
I have made it a point not to miss a single one of Vance's works. If there
ever was a craftsman of prose here he is!  I guess people either live on
his wavelength or not- and those who don't will never understand those who
do...  (And, yes, Cugel (sic!), is a very dislikeable character- and, yes,
there is more satire there that you'd ever dream of- evidently...)

Till Noever
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 16:39:39 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Cugel (was Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy)

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>NOT TOO MANY QUESTS???? You must be talking about a different "Eyes of the
>Overworld" than the one that *I* read. The whole book revolved around our
>very UNlikable rogue's attempts to get some magic item or another and make
>it back to his homeland where some wizard would trade the item for
>removing a curse from Cudgel. That's called a QUEST, in case you haven't
>looked up the definition recently.  During the quest, Cudgel rapes a bunch
>of people, kills all his friends, treats everybody like the cardboard
>mannikens that they are, and in general is a very nasty and dispicable
>character. I wouldn't trust anybody who likes Cudgel around dogs or small
>children.  Add in episodic plotting that reminds me of the old serials
>(where every "episode" had to be nearly self-contained), and you can
>understand why I have never been able to muster the energy to read any
>other work by Jack Vance.

Point 1: The name is Cugel. One of sf-lovers's most commonly posted
misnomers. Point 2: You're right, the book was about Cugel's quest to
recover the Eyes of the Overworld. Point 3: As to whether Cugel was likable
or not, that's a matter of opinion. I thought he was a rather likable
buffoon, who constantly managed to go from bad situations to worse ones.
Point 4: He had no friends, so he couldn't kill them. I don't remember him
killing anyone who hadn't, in Cugel's opinion, asked for it. Point 5: I
don't remember anyone being raped. Certainly not "a bunch of people."
Considering when the stories were written, rape was probably a taboo
subject. Point 6: Yes, the characters are cardboard.  Point 7: Should we
rehash the argument about judging people from their reading tastes? Point
8: Considering that the story was first published in a serialized form, the
episodic style makes sense. Point 9: I haven't read much Vance. I liked the
first 3 books of the "Dying Earth" series.  He has a number of excellent
short stories in an anthology called "The Narrow Land." Try that one.

Disclaimer: I'm working from memory of a couple years ago. I may have
screwed up some details, but the gist is the same.

Speaking of Vance, did he write the story about "Laoom the World-Thinker"?
I think it was in "The Narrow Land", but I could be confused.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 17:54:36 GMT
From: hal@garth.uucp (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

And don't forget a personal favorite of mine, LUD IN THE MIST by Hope
Mirlees, although one has to strain to avoid the apparent allegory about
the English and London in particular; should there be other devotees of the
book out there, I would suggest that if they find themselves in London they
should contact the Friends of Highgate Cemetary and beg their way into the
closed-off section of the cemetary (opposite from the side where Marx was
buried).  The begging and/or joining of the Friends is necessary because of
the unrestored nature of the Victorian cemetary which causes high insurance
rates; anyway, having wandered in there by accident (and being greeted by
the president of the society, a Lewis Carroll scholar) I managed to walk
among the overgrown bushes and stare at elaborate sculptures clawing
zombie-like out of the undergrowth and think how closely it all resembled
the favorite mortuary of Nathaniel Chanticleer, complete down to pithy
epitaphs.

I think I even heard the Note.  Great book.

Hal Broome

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 5 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

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Date: 27 Apr 88 23:22:48 GMT
From: smith@cos.uucp
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP writes:
>     It seems that many of you have labeled Heinlein as pornographic.
>Have you actually read any of his work, or are you going by what the
>masses believe?  I have read every single novel/short story written by
>him. And as Jubal told Ben, "I see the beauty in what he(Mike) is trying
>to create."  As Jubal also tells Ben, "He(Mike) has seen the sickness of
>our culture, and in order to correct to reform, he first must throw away
>the moral standards established by the masses."  I don't think those are
>exact words, but something like it.  Anyway, I see the beauty in what
>Heinlein is trying to achieve, even though he says what, insead of how..

The problem is not that RAH's later books contain badly done sex scenes.
Indeed, badly done sex scenes are somewhat characteristic of most of
current literature, inside SF and out.  I can think, right off hand, of
about three authors that can handle explicit sex well.

The problem is that RAH stands accused of the two worst crimes in the book:

1.  He is successful, without making the proper kowtows toward the Gods
    of Literary Merit.

2.  He is accused of (drum roll) RIGHT WING POLITICS.  This justifies
    any insult and makes logic unnecessary.

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 01:41:22 GMT
From: steveg@hub.ucsb.edu (STeve GReenland)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
>Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I
>do not

Several people have pointed out that the author has little or no control
over the cover paintings, but we should also note that covers vary with
edition (hardback vs. paperback,etc.) and that not all of the covers (esp.
the older ones) have seminude/semiclothed women.

>Consider the first novel in this phase of his writing, Time enough For
>Love, in this novel the Hero has sex with his mother, has sex with very
>young girls (these girls are twins who are in fact cloned from him, and he
>considered them sisters), the man is immortal and has women pandering all
>over him.

I don't think the clones are all that young by the time sexual incident
occurs, and you can hardly claim that Lazurus Long coerced the girls into
having sex with him.  What does immortality have to do with it?  Finally,
what's wrong with incest between consenting, knowledgeable people?  (Go
read Theodore Sturgeon's _IF ALL MEN WERE BROTHERS, WOULD YOU LET ONE MARRY
YOUR SISTER?_ from the first Dangerous Visions)

>Now lets look at the book "Friday", which is a main selection of the
>Playboy book club.  In the first 30 odd pages The female protagonist kills
>numerous "bad guys", is gang raped, tortured, has her nipple sawed off,
>etc etc.  Here are a few quotes that descibe the tone in which these
>events happened.
>
>P.9 -- "But why waste time raping me?.. {talk of how a woman can properly
>deal with a rape}.. They had me on the floor, a gang bang with minor
>sadism ...{her attidute towards the rapists is portrayed in the next
>section}..  I figured him for basically decent soul despite his taste for-
>no, aside from is taste a bit of rape-- a taste common to most males
>according to the kinseys."
>
>   I have not personally read through the Kinsey report, but in know
>others in the Psy. community who have, and to have this type of behavor
>condoned and even promoted by mis-quoting the Kinseys is deporable.

HUH???  I don't think rape (or any other violation of individual rights by
force) is ever condoned by RAH.  Certainly not in FRIDAY.

>works.  I grew up reading Starship Troopers, Waldo & Magic inc, the Star
>Beast, etc. but I feel that his recent writings are SEXIST at the very
>least.

Quite possibly SEXIST.  In his recent writings he almost universally
promotes women as superior to men (see especially Expanded Universe).  Most
of his books feature women who are at least as capable as the men, and I
think his male fools outnumber the female fools.  Yes, his males tend to be
protective of the females, because that is the primary function of males in
any situation where the ability of the males to protect the females is
somehow (I hate to write this) "superior" to the ability of the females to
protect themselves.  But RAH's characters usually are quite in favor of
having the females be capable of defending themselves, for when the guy's
screw up.

Finally, one poster (I lost track of the attribution) stated that RAH's
writings promoted FASCIST societies.  I suggest that poster go look up the
definition of 'fascist', and then provide the net with examples of
'fascist' societies favorably presented in the writings of RAH.

Incidentally, I'm quite in agreement that some of his recent books have
been subpar, but I don't think that pornagraphy, incest, sexism, or fascism
are the problems.

steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
...!ucbvax!hub!steveg

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 08:30:54 GMT
From: c60a-4bq@web4e.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

>Under what heading books like this belong is up to individual
>interpretation, all this posting is attempting to do is describe what I
>see in Heinlein's later works.  I grew up reading Starship Troopers, Waldo
>& Magic inc, the Star Beast, etc. but I feel that his recent writings are
>SEXIST at the very least.

     As Heinlein states in may of his novels, "You can take the boy out of
the bible belt, but not the bible belt out of the boy."  Simply put, people
are corrupted by the morals and beliefs of his time/environment.  Even as
he writes in THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST, -Jake- may support ERA, but
subconsciously believe otherwise.  Heinlein grew up in time when women were
blatantly discriminated against.  Although he has learned better and know
better, there might be a reserve even he may not be aware of.  Now this, I
believe, goes true for everyone, even though they may disagree.  I cannot
judge Heinlein's view of women, for I am not of the female sex.  I can only
judge his view on what a human is from his novels and short stories, esp.
- -FRIDAY- and -JERRY WAS A MAN-.  I cannot judge on Heinlein's views of
incest, but I can judge and agree that sex should be for pleasure, for both
parties..

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 19:03:36 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt)
Subject: Heinlein books

Heinlein had the species "Homo Novis" as a centerpoint in his story "Gulf"
in the book Assignment in Eternity a couple of decades ago.  They were
mentioned in passing in Friday.

Anybody know anyplace else they show up?

Thanks.

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 06:16:20 GMT
From: Jerry_Geronimo_Whitnell@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

Kevin Cherkauer writes:
>All the other ones use rather...well...dare I say it?...FASCIST (oooooooh
>I feel a flame attack coming on. Asbestos suit on and damn the cancer!!)
>philosophies.
>
>E.g.: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, where the idea is to "free" the
>lunar colonies by setting up a dictatorship of 3, then completely fixing
>the "elections" so these people could get who they wanted into office.

When they did this, the rebels were still fighting earth hence they needed
a rubber-stamp government.  By the time they were free of earth, two were
dead (Mike and the professor) and Manual snuck out of the goverment (see
page 300 of _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress).  Besides which, Heinlein also
talks about rational anarchism (pg 63), which is about as far from fascism
as you can get.

>Also, the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout the
>book is this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
>breath that they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.  Let them
>breathe vacuum."

Did you read the book, or did someone just tell you the low points?  The
colonist did have an informal court system (see page 124) which was used to
decide whether someone was tossed out the airlock.  As things worked out
there were very few eliminations (pg 132) and women and children were far
safer on the streets then in any earthside city.

Jerry Whitnell

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 20:13:02 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
>Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I
>do not wish to quibble whether a Buxom woman in a partially in zipped
>tight space suit is partially nude, the attitude towards women is clear.

I have not noticed a high correlation between cover art and contents.  Nor
am I aware of the author having control over what the publisher puts there.
Do you have information that he does?  If not, this is a cheap shot.

Now, the REST of your posting seemed valid.  He does, apparently, have
those tendencies you described.  Of course, so does the author of the
Bible......

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 05:45:50 GMT
From: Jerry_Geronimo_Whitnell@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP writes:
>Pornographic may be too stirring a word but it is close.  I have also read
>a great many of his works.  I wish to say that not all or in fact a great
>deal of Heinlein's work goes into the near-pornographic classification,
>concentrate on his works starting in 1973 with Time Enough For Love up to
>the present.

The only book that I would qualify as erotica (a term I perfer to use when
descrbing Heinlein's books) is I Will Fear No Evil, first published in
1970.  However, all of his books back to Stranger in a Strange Land (1961)
include some form of sex or family relationship other then your standard
missionary position. These include Glory Road and The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress.

>The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
>Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I
>do not wish to quibble whether a Buxom woman in a partially in zipped
>tight space suit is partially nude, the attitude towardds women is clear.

This is a very weak argument.  First off, as far as I know, the author has
little control over the covers put on his books.  Second I've seen few
covers that showed that the artist had even read the book and Heinlein's
books are not among them.  Just because the publisher's of his books have
this attitude towards women does not imply he does.  Third is the cover
depends on what edition you look at.  Friday, for example has the buxom
women (obviously not Friday) on the paperback, but a small-breasted women
in relativly unrevealing cloths on the cover the hardback.  Which implies
the real opinions of Heinlein?

>Consider the first novel in this phase of his writing, Time enough For
>Love, in this novel the Hero has sex with his mother, has sex with very
>young girls (these girls are twins who are in fact cloned from him, and he
>considered them sisters), the man is immortal and has women pandering all
>over him.

As I pointed out above, this is not the first book of this phase, I Will
Fear No Evil is. The "young girls" at least 19 years old, which if you ask
on soc.women qualfies them as women.  See page 442 of Time Enough For Love,
which suggests that the only time Lazarus made love to his sisters was 20
years after they were born (Lazarus looked thoughtful.  "Unless Ishtar
tricked me almost 20 years back.  When I was her rejuve client.").

As far as "pandering", Heinlein presents Lazarus's family as a normal
marriage with several partners of each sex.  This is not the first time he
did this as The Moon is a Harsh Mistress has a variety of marriage styles
and Stranger in a Strange Land has it's commune and threesomes.  And can
you explain to be what being immortal has to do with pornography?

>Now lets look at the book "Friday", which is a main selection of the
>Playboy book club.  In the first 30 odd pages The female protagonist kills
>numerous "bad guys", is gang raped, tortured, has her nipple sawed off,
>etc etc.  Here are a few quotes that descibe the tone in which these
>events happened.
>
>P.9 -- "But why waste time raping me?.. {talk of how a woman can properly
>deal with a rape}.. They had me on the floor, a gang bang with minor
>sadism ...{her attidute towards the rapists is portrayed in the next
>section}..  I figured him for basically decent soul despite his taste for-
>no, aside from is taste a bit of rape-- a taste common to most males
>according to the kinseys."

A slight misquote, from page 9 -- "But why waste time raping me?  This
whole operation had amateurish touches.  No professional group uses either
beating or rape before interrogation today; there is no profit in it; any
professional is trained to cope with either or both."  What she is talking
about is not how a women can deal with rape, but rather how a
professionally trained courier can deal with it.  With the military type
training she has received, it is not suprising she is trained to deal with
rape and beatings during interogation, which is what is happening in this
scene.

>It seems rather clear why this book was included as a Playboy book of the
>month.  I have not personally read through the Kinsey report, but in know
>others in the Psy. community who have, and to have this type of behavor
>condoned and even promoted by mis-quoting the Kinseys is deporable.

Just as deplorable (if true) as your mis-quoting and misinterpreting
Heinlein.  Heinlein does not ever condone rape, unles you consider writing
about it condoning it.  In which case ever newspaper article describing a
murder condones murder.  Promoting it?  Give me a break.  Heinlein uses the
first two chapters with the killings and the rapes to show one side of
Friday.  He adds more to her character in following chapters as she has to
deal with various other problems, such as the racist attitudes of her New
Zealand family, etc.

>Under what heading books like this belong is up to individual
>interpretation, all this posting is attempting to do is describe what I
>see in Heinlein's later works.  I grew up reading Starship Troopers, Waldo
>& Magic inc, the Star Beast, etc. but I feel that his recent writings are
>SEXIST at the very least.

The books you mention are either from his juvenile books (The Star Beast)
or were written in the 40's to 50's when it was much harder to get erotica
of any sort published.  Heinlein's more recent works explore alternative
sexual and marital styles just as is earlier books explored alternative
worlds.  It is not clear you even understand the meaning of the word
sexist, as nothing you've shown has anything to do with sexism.  It is
obvious that you (and a lot of other people) are too narrow minded to deal
with the depth and breadth of the subject Heinlein is exploring.

Jerry Whitnell

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 21:14:58 GMT
From: homxc!roger@mtune.att.com
Subject: Heinlein, Porn, etc.

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
> scenes I've heard is that he wrote them as if his mother was looking
> over his shoulder 

If he's writing from Lazarus Long's viewpoint, that IS his mother looking
over his shoulder (although I'm not sure whether her eyes are open.)  :-

Roger Tait
ihnp4!homxc!roger

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 16:42:09 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

Mark Interrante writes:
>The following books have semi-nude women on the cover: Time Enough For
>Love, The Cat who Walks through Walls, Friday, and his current novel.  I
>do not wish to quibble whether a Buxom woman in a partially in zipped
>tight space suit is partially nude, the attitude towards women is clear.

Sorry Mark - I will most certainly quibble.

   1 - Usually authors don't have any control over cover art.

   2 - The cover of TCWWTW had a man and a woman - the woman's space suit
was actually rather wrinkly, and she wasn't particularly buxom. Friday's
jumpsuit was partially unzipped - but surely no more than I have seen
literally on the street.  I can't speak for TEFL - haven't seen it's cover
recently enough to remember it.

   3 - PARTIALLY NUDE !!!  Get real Mark.  Suggestive - yes, sexy and
evocative - yes but those pictures weren't of PARTIALLY NUDE women even by
1949 standards.

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
9805 Scranton Rd.
San Diego, CA 92121
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 9 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Hugo Awards (5 msgs)

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Date: 28 Apr 88 06:33:31 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
[preamble regarding vagueness of 'Other Forms' Hugo deleted]

First of all, I firmly believe that a >form< of the Other Form category
should most definitely exist.  My personal love has always been for sf&f
audio drama and well-done dramatic readings.  I remember the Hugo
nominations for two Firesign Theatre LP's coming in last place each time.
(Oh, all right, one of them >did< come up against some flick by Kubrick...
:-) And we all know how much Harlan would love one for spoken word.  The
late Mike Hodel should have enjoyed some recognition for his fine sf radio
program on KPFK (Hour 25).  (Modesty forbids my mentioning my weekly 2 hour
sf radio program on WBAI for over 17 years, Hour of the Wolf.  :-} I have
produced radio dramas over the years that I might have liked to have
considered, and at WBAI alone, other sf radio drama producers over the
years worthy of consideration have included Samuel R. Delany, John Lithgow,
Baird Searles, and more.  Moving outside the US we must take note of the
BBC, with such productions as The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (it was
originally conceived (and best executed) for radio, remember?), Nicol
Williamson's reading of The Hobbit, etc.

Not one of the above can even begin to compete in popularity (the Hugo >is<
a popularity poll) with even a Grade-Z movie or an episode of V in the
Special Dramatic Presentation category.  Yet to make a specific Aural Hugo
would be silly on the face of it (unless it's some kind of
committee-awarded honorarium which would lead us into the fun-filled world
of fannish BNF political in-fighting.  So I welcome the premise of this new
award.

Yet I recognize the validity of your argument.  I find the Hugo voting to
be too dispersed in taste for serious nominations (due to the vague
wording) to come forth.  I think SFWA could handle such a category
better...

As for some of your specific proposals:

>Delete the Best Semi-Pro magazine category. 

Again, >in principle< this category has meaning.  Perhaps another way might
be found to give Charlie Brown his due, and allow someone else to move in.
I could imagine redefining the award somehow...

>Fan awards. The fan awards shouldn't be handled at a Worldcon. The
>Worldcon voters simply aren't faanish enough to make intelligent choices,
>so voting is very light. My suggestion is to move the voting and
>administration of the fan awards to a faanish convention, such as Corflu,
>and have the awards given out at Worldcon. This won't cheapen the fan
>awards, but it will make them more representative of the group they're
>trying to reward.

Agreed.  But I doubt that choosing any one con to be the administrator of
the fan awards will go down well.  You'd have to institute some new
Worldcon-like rotation and voting, and that just might not be worth it.
Perhaps the administration could be handled by an official zine run by a
committee charged by the Wordcon's constitution.  Trufaans are elitist
enough to enjoy this, and the rest may not care enough to participate.

>Best Professional Artist. Shift this from a nomination of an artist to
>nominations of specific works. This would reduce the tendency of a
>well-known artist get votes on name value even in a year when their output
>is small or not up to snuff.

This seems it could become a double-edged sword.  Again, (with no
disrespect to any group intended,) I feel that the Hugo's cite name value
popularity so much above all else that they often have not familliarized
themselves with a give category.  I fear that the people who would vote
(and nominate) conscientiously on such an award (such as you or I :-) would
be few and far between.  A good but not stand-out piece of artwork might
win partly on the basis of the work it is depicting.  On the other hand,
your plan might encourage publishers to use better cover art as an
incentive to featuring a potential winner.

In fact, all of these specific proposals are close calls, worthy of debate
and much fannish quibbling.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 23:34:16 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

>First of all, I firmly believe that a >form< of the Other Form category
>should most definitely exist.

Well, I can definitely agree, in theory. I think the award needs to be set
up to protect it from over eager special interest groups.

For interest (seriously) as the wording stands, Asimov's could win a hugo
as an "Other Form" at the same time Gardner wins a Hugo as their editor.

Now, if we can come up with a good "Other Form" definition, I'll support it
to the hilt. I just don't want to see it as a place for the power groups to
give themselves Hugos, or for the weird arcana to take over.

>My personal love has always been for sf&f audio drama and well-done
>dramatic readings.

>The late Mike Hodel should have enjoyed some recognition for his fine sf
>radio program on KPFK (Hour 25).  (Modesty forbids my mentioning my weekly
>2 hour sf radio program on WBAI for over 17 years, Hour of the Wolf

Do we need two media awards? Best movie and best other media? Is there
enough material out there to justify it?

More importantly, is there fan support to justify it? It's always seemed to
me that the "best media" award has been tolerated more than supported by
the Worldcon membership.

The SFWA did away with its media award a few years back. Now, the SFWA
giving a media award is running pretty far afield, but since SF is
traditionally a fiction oriented field that ranges widely around its core,
it could be argued for the Hugos as well.

(and that, I assume will cause someone to yell at me. Oh, well....)

>>Delete the Best Semi-Pro magazine category. 
>
>Again, >in principle< this category has meaning.  Perhaps another way
>might be found to give Charlie Brown his due, and allow someone else to
>move in.

Twelve Hugos isn't enough due?

Seriously, perhaps instead of "best pro magazine" and "best semi-pro" we're
better off with "best fiction magazine" and "best trade magazine"?

On second thought, maybe not. That's put Interzone, et al, against "the
majors" without really changing the major problem: that Locus wins every
year, and Andy Porter bitches about it afterward because SF Chron ran
second.

No simple answers, huh?

>> Fan awards.

>Agreed.  But I doubt that choosing any one con to be the administrator of
>the fan awards will go down well.  You'd have to institute some new
>Worldcon-like rotation and voting, and that just might not be worth it.

In the comics world, the recently deceased Kirby awards were run in
conjunction with one of the middle-group publishers. The ballots got wide
distribution through the various genre related media, and was generally
considered to be well run and good for all concerned.

A similar thing could be considered here, with the one proviso that whoever
administers the awards isn't able to be considered. Some zine (one initial
thought would be File 770, although my guess would be that lots of people
would be unwilling to allow Glyer to take control of the thing....)
administers the vote, other publications distribute the ballot, and the
awards are given out at Worldcon.

As a matter of fact, I'd be silly enough to volunteer the services of
OtherRealms for this, as I've considered putting together an annual
reader's survey on the field, anyway, and this would simply enlarge the
scale by one or two orders of magnitude. No big deal... (he says).

If ballots went out in SF Chron, Locus, and passed around the fanzine
circuit similar to the way the Hogu or Tucker awards are, the voting would
be put back in the hands of the folks most interested in the fan awards.
It's probably work pretty well, if you could find a fanzine publisher who
would be willing to do the work and be willing to give up their Hugo
eligibility....

>>Best Professional Artist.

>I fear that the people who would vote (and nominate) conscien- tiously on
>such an award (such as you or I :-) would be few and far between.  A good
>but not stand-out piece of artwork might win partly on the basis of the
>work it is depicting.

Is it better to get 500 votes for Michael Whelan because you've heard of
him, or 300 votes for one of his covers. It's sort or a wash. My guess is
that fewer folks would vote in the category, but those that do would be a
little more knowledgeable, since it implies having to go and find out who
the author of that cover was, rather than just voting for someone you've
heard of.

> On the other hand, your plan might encourage publishers to use better
>cover art as an incentive to featuring a potential winner.

Hmm. I hadn't considered that. I can just see a publisher pushing the "Hugo
Winning cover of the book of..." on the cover, thereby keeping anyone from
seeing the cover under it... (hee-hee)

>In fact, all of these specific proposals are close calls, worthy of debate
>and much fannish quibbling.

You never know. Maybe some improvements will come from the quibbling. Or
maybe just a recognition that for all the bitching about the Hugos, they're
not all that bad, because if they were, we'd find ways to improve them.

One thing is clear. There are no clear cut answers or "easy" solutions.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 16:27:26 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

Oh, goody!  One of my favorite hobbies: sitting around and discussing What
Should Be Done About (anything the group doing the discussing has no power
to do anything about).

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Do we need two media awards? Best movie and best other media? Is there
>enough material out there to justify it?

The real problem is that in any *given* year, there may be a radio show, or
a TV show (should TV shows be counted in with movies under "Drama"?  How
about stage plays?  Slide shows (remember "The Capture")?

Perhaps "Other Forms" should be used as a NOMINATING category -- and then
categories set up based on what gets nominated in a given year.  If two or
three art books get nominated, set up an "art book" category for that year.
Two or three graphic novels, set up a "graphic novel" category.

You'd have to have some threshold -- say, some minimum number of
nominations -- for something to make the ballot.  For example, suppose
"Watchmen" and "Elektra" each got 150 nominations this year, and
"Hairballs" got forty.  Then I'd say that there should only be two graphic
novels on the ballot.

Setting the threshold could be a problem, of course; and what do you do
when only one item in a given category makes the threshold?  Put it and "No
Award" on the ballot together, or just award a de facto Hugo?

>>Again, >in principle< this category has meaning.  Perhaps another way
>>might be found to give Charlie Brown his due, and allow someone else to
>>move in.
>
>Twelve Hugos isn't enough due?

I still think we should have a "Best Issue of LOCUS" award...

>As a matter of fact, I'd be silly enough to volunteer the services of
>OtherRealms for this, as I've considered putting together an annual
>reader's survey on the field, anyway, and this would simply enlarge the
>scale by one or two orders of magnitude. No big deal... (he says).

Have you given any *thought* to the problem of ballot verification/
duplication?  The Hugos manage okay because they're defined as "one
membership, one vote," and keep records -- if you want to vote three times,
buying three memberships is completely legit.  But

>If ballots went out in SF Chron, Locus, and passed around the fanzine
>circuit similar to the way the Hogu or Tucker awards are,

then stacking awards would be the easiest damn thing since pointing out the
bloopers in an episode of SPACE:1499, and UNlike the Hogu and Tucker
awards, people would care enough to do it.

>>>Best Professional Artist.

I've thought for a *long* time that people should vote for individual works
instead of the Artist's output over a year.  I suspect that (for example)
Kelly Freas might not have won quite so many Hugos under that rule -- does
anybody *really* go back and look at what *this* year's Freas, Whelan,
Sweet, etc. covers were, or do they vote for their general impression of an
artist accumulated over years?

The latter, I suspect...

How about that book editor Hugo...?

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 17:55:15 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

> You'd have to have some threshold -- say, some minimum number of
> nominations -- for something to make the ballot.  For example, suppose
> "Watchmen" and "Elektra" each got 150 nominations this year, and
> "Hairballs" got forty.  Then I'd say that there should only be two
> graphic novels on the ballot.

I've argued for a couple of years that instead of the current "No Award"
setup, a Hugo would not be awarded unless some specific percentage of total
ballots vote on a given category. I'd recommend 50%+1, or perhaps 33%+1.

So if, say, 1000 people vote for Hugos, and you only get 200 Best Fanzine
votes, you don't give a Best Fanzine award because there isn't enough
interest in the voting population to warrant it.

> Have you given any *thought* to the problem of ballot verification/
> duplication?  The Hugos manage okay because they're defined as "one
> membership, one vote," and keep records -- if you want to vote three
> times, buying three memberships is completely legit.  But

It'd take some work, but it's doable. If you take the combination of "zip
code + last name + first name" as a unique key (which would be a reasonable
in all but a very few cases) you could limit things to one vote per person.
If people were really interested in stuffing the ballot box, they probably
could, but it could also be tracked and perhaps dealt with if it became a
problem.

> then stacking awards would be the easiest damn thing since pointing out
> the bloopers in an episode of SPACE:1499, and UNlike the Hogu and Tucker
> awards, people would care enough to do it.

Would it? A similar thing happens with both the CBG Fan awards and the
Kirby awards in comics, and neither, to my knowledge, has had a hint of a
stuffing scandal.

> How about that book editor Hugo...?

I'm against it. The Best Editor hugo can handle both magazines and books,
and Book Editors seem to finally be getting some (well deserved)
recognition. Don't cheapen their award by splitting them out just as they
start to compete openly.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 23:36:02 GMT
From: clif@clif.uucp (Clif Flynt)
Subject: Re: Filk Hugo list

I suppose seeing my name in the first two spots on the list of filk
eligible for hugo's gives me some sort of tie in to mutter about my
feelings on the 'filk' hugo this year.  (Now I know how to get my name on
the top of these lists: start songs with the letter 'A', my next song
should be something like "Aardvaarks Argue with Adversity".)

Anyhow, I'd like to suggest that people NOT vote a filk for a Hugo.

A Hugo is an acknowlegement that someone possessing dedication and talent
has expended a considerable quantity of time and energy to produce a piece
of art that is of exceptional quality.

I won't argue that many filkers possess a lot of dedication, and talent.  I
won't argue that some filk songs are of exceptional quality on any scale
you want to use to measure them.

However, I don't think any filk song represents the hours of time and
energy that deserves a Hugo.

If people feel that the filking portion of fannish society deserves to be
recognized with a Hugo, I'd like to suggest that they nominate a filk
writer as 'Best Fan Writer'.

This would allow people to vote, not for a single song, but for a filker
who has consistently created quality songs over a period of years.  This
Hugo would represent the hours that go into creating many songs, and the
dedication to quality that deserves recognition.

I know that the 'Best Fan Writer' award was created by and for Fanzine
writers.  However, in the past couple of decades, there has been a shift in
peoples fanac.  Cheap travel and electronic communication has reduced the
need for the Fanzine as a means to maintain contact with the fannish
community.  The current creative outlet for many fen is the filk song, and
I don't think it's inappropriate to honor those who expend these quantities
of creative effort.

In the spirit of lists, I'll suggest the following people as writers who
would not cheapen a fanac Hugo by receiving it.

Leslie Fish	 Many years in filking, and many classic filks.
Kathy Mar	 Fewer years in filking, but very many excellent songs.
Julia Ecklar	 Again, a newer filker, but very talented.
Bob Asprin	 Not filking much now, but his songs are still sung.

Clif Flynt
uunet!umix!clif!clif

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 9 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:

                     Administrivia - Archives,
		     Miscellaneous - Planet Classes &
                                     Choose a Universe (15 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 May 88 08:38:18 EDT
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
Subject: Archives

After several months of work of conversion and resurrection, the sfl
archives are now available to all once again.  The machine to connect to is
elbereth.rutgers.edu which is a unix machine.  You may log in using the
anonymous login of ftp.  Once you have logged in, connect to pub/sfl and
the files are in that directory.  Because of space restrictions, I am not
sure how long I will be able to keep everything online.

 Below is a list of the files that are currently in the archives:

Episode Guides:

   22 star-trek.guide
   70 twilight-zone.guide
   16 blake7.guide
    6 drwho.guide
   26 galactica.guide
   40 lost-in-space.guide
   54 new-twilight-zone.guide
   16 outerlimits.guide
    6 prisoner.guide

Text Files:

   20 amber-timeline.txt
   70 argon.txt
   24 down-in-flames.txt
   88 hitch-hikers-guide-to-the-net.txt
   16 hugos.txt
    8 klingonaase.txt
   32 nebulas.txt
   98 the-enchanted-duplicator.txt
 
Back Issues of SF-LOVERS:

   2128 sf-lovers.v1
   1904 sf-lovers.v2
   1856 sf-lovers.v3
   1760 sf-lovers.v4
    816 sf-lovers.v5
   1744 sf-lovers.v6
    592 sf-lovers.v7
   1648 sf-lovers.v8
   3600 sf-lovers.v9
   7472 sf-lovers.v10
   6752 sf-lovers.v11
   4944 sf-lovers.v12a
   4000 sf-lovers.v12b

A few notes about the files.  The number that appears to the left of the
file, is the size of the file in kilobytes.   All of the back issues except
for volume 1 are in BABYL mail format.  The first volume, sf-lovers.v1,
includes a number of messages from the early days before digests and there
is much of "historical" interest.  

The current volume is Volume 13.  Old issues of this volume may be found in
the same directory as the archives.  They are in the files sf-lovers.xxxyy
where "xxx" is the month of publication and "yy" is the current year.  For
more recent back issues, send your request to
SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS.EDU.  

Warning:  People who are on the BITNET side of the network cannot get
access to the archives.  I have been attempting to find a site on the
bitnet that is willing to house the large amounts of data, but no site is
willing.  Recent back issues can still be obtained through the listserv
mechanism at TCSVM.

Enjoy!!

Saul Jaffe
Moderator SF-LOVERS Digest
sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 88 20:56:07 GMT
From: mdk1@cblpf.att.com (Michael King)
Subject: Re: Planet Classes

>Can anyone give me a list of the alphabetic world classes used in Star
>Trek and several other science fiction settings?  For instance, an
>Earth-type planet is class M.  Thanks...

This classification is from the Star Trek Maps.

			 PLANETARY CLASSIFICATION
CLASS  SURFACE          ATMOSPHERE       DESCRIPTION      EXAMPLE    

A      Tenuous, may     Reducing,        Radiates Heat,   Jupiter    
       not be present   methane, etc     "failed" star               

B      Tenuous, may     Reducing         NonRadiant      Neptune    
       not be present                                                
                                                                     
C      Iron Silicate    Reducing, dense  High Surface     Venus      
                                         Temperature                 

D      Metallic         Fluid, very      Small, young     Excalbia   
       Silicate         dense                                        

E      Silicate, some   Reducing         Large Molten     Janus VI   
       metals           Oxidizing        Core                        

F      Silicate, some   Oxidizing        Very Young       DeltaVega 
       metals                            (less than                  
                                         10**9 years                 

G      Silicate         Oxidizing, thin  Desert Planet    Rigel XII  

H      Silicate         Variable         Geologically     Gothos     
                                         active                      

I      Nickeliron      (AG) none,      Asteroids        Ceres,     
       Silicate         (HN) tenuous                     Yonada     

J      Silicate         Very tenuous,    Moons            Luna       
                        noble gases                                  
                                                                     
K      Silicate         Tenuous, some    Adaptable with   Mars       
                        water            pressure domes              

L      Silicate Water   Oxidizing        Geologically     PSI 2000   
                                         Inactive                    
                                                                     
M      Silicate Water   Oxidizing        Geologically     Terra      
                                         Active                      

N      Water Entirely   Oxidizing        Pelagic Planet   Argo       
                                                                     
Hope you like it!

Mike King
..cbosgd!cblpf!mdk1
mdk1@cblpf.ATT.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 23:56:46 GMT
From: george@hyper.lap.upenn.edu (George Zipperlen)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
> Not bad. It only took two replies for someone to totally ignore the point
> of the original question :-). Oh well, I was kind of hoping this would
> happen, since it'll make for some discussion. My question was, which
> UNIVERSE, not which CHARACTER.

I think these worlds are pretty ideal for every inhabitant:
    Gand       Eric Frank Russell  
    Vexvelt    Theodore Sturgeon            
but fairly static.  Does Utopia imply stability?  Does stability imply
eventual stagnation and decay?  Perhaps a constant external threat is
necessary.  (For the venturesome, this theme - among others - is treated in
Goethe's Faust.  Yes; some of us grungy sf-lovers do read the classics).

These worlds are more fun and exciting (hence risky):
    Old Earth during the Rediscovery of Man Cordwainer Smith Wonderful for
        everyone; except perhaps for the Underpeople, but they achieved
        civil rights during this time.
    What Mad Universe     Fredric Brown       
        Well, not for everyone with the Arc war and all, but it sure is
        fun!  A heightened version of our own world, really.
Sensual delights:
    Karres      James Schmitz
        Oh for that wintenberry jelly!
    Lovenbroy   Keith Laumer
        Why does a planet famous for wine sound like a beer?
    Judgement Night     C L Moore
        I've forgotten the name of the place, been a long time...
    Vermilion Sands     J G Ballard
        a nice place for a long vacation, but I'd probably get bored
        eventually

The only one I can think of that does justice to fjords...
    Earth     Slartibartfast    

George Zipperlen
Language Analysis Project           
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, Pa. 19103   
(215)-898-1954
george@apollo.lap.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 04:15:34 GMT
From: mok@pawl23.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel Kamens) writes:
>Now, as to what universe I'd choose if I had my druthers, there are a few:
>
>1) Xanth - I have always been intrigued by magic, and it would be great to
>have my own particular magical ability.  Of course, I would probably have
>the amazing ability to turn on a light at will, or something equally
>fantastic :-), but I'd love to be a magician.  Seems like pretty much
>everybody is happy there, too. (This is, of course, the "well-written"
>Xanth :-) - All you Anthony haters, please don't flame :-) :-).

   S'okay. I hate Anthony's writing as much as anyone and *I'd* like to be
there also. It's not as nice as some worlds, but it IS a fun place. Just
because the man can't write doesn't mean that he's incapable of imagining a
fun place to be.

   As for where I'd *really* like to be.... I've got a hankering to be a
prince of Amber. The power... the glory... If nothing else it's bound to
not be boring. If nothing else the palace intrigue will add spice to life.
And if you every get bored... just slip off to some Shadow of your choosing
and live out whatever little fantasy you care to relax in at the moment.
Now THAT'S life.

   If I couldn't be a prince of Amber my next choice would be a warlock in
Vernor Vinge's "True Names." Perhaps it's just that I like to have some
power and control over my environment... but many of the reasons I gave in
my last paragraph apply to this one also.

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 16:53:43 GMT
From: emiller@bbn.com (ethan miller)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

Personally, I'd like to be in the Known Space universe of Larry Niven.
Sounds like a wonderful place to be, since most human problems (like
medical and food) have been eliminated.  I wouldn't worry about the
Birthright Lottery (two kids is plenty), and the technology is sufficiently
advanced to let me do whatever I want.  I'd spend my time exploring Unknown
space.

ethan miller
(617) 873-3091 
BBN Laboratories
ARPAnet : emiller@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 00:20:28 GMT
From: M1C@psuvm.bitnet (Mark A. Cogan)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe!

There are some things being forgotten about Pern.

1) Dragonriders are not the only important people on Pern.

2) There are many 'jobs' one can get on Pern...

   Harper (my #1 choice after Dragonrider)
   Miner
   Herder
   Weaver
   etc...

Anyway, there are other things to Pern than just Dragons...

Mark A. Cogan

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 03:14:03 GMT
From: howardg@tekirl.tek.com (Howard Goetz)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

I have always thought that the world and universe as it was going to
develop shortly after the events in "Way Station" by Clifford Simak sounded
like a great place and time to be alive. Also, for what its worth, the job
of StationMaster, as described in that book, gets my vote for one of the
best possible jobs someone could have.

Howard Goetz 

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 18:21:16 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

Hmm... There are several that seem pretty good, with what seems to be a
high quality of life all around.  Niven's "Known Space", of course.
Schmitz's "Hub worlds".  H. Beam Piper's "Federation".  The peak of Poul
Anderson's Polesotechnic League.

I guess one of the key points, since the rules say I can't pick what social
position I start out at, is the freedom to change my social position with a
little work and motivation.  Actually, I don't think there were any poor
people in Known Space.  At least, I don't think Niven ever wrote about any.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 03:43:51 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

>> If you could live in the "world" developed by any sf or fantasy
>> author, which one would it be? ...
> 
> H. Beam Piper's "Federation". 

Actually, I'd rather like to be in his "Paratime 1st Level" myself.

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 22:02:43 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!
  
The society of Heinlein's short story Coventry. Of course I would not
choose coventry, but the society from which the protagonist is banished
from.
  
It's an anarchy that is based on a totalitaristical government structure.
The government is centralized and omnipowerful, but benevolently restrains
itself from excercising that power, except when somebody chooses to
exercise uninvited acts of force against others, and then only removes this
person and throws him into coventry. This story is a unique study of the
popular idea of anarchy (chaos as in the coventry "frontier"), against a
rational man's idea of the means which would best allow the least
interpersonal use of force and simultaneously minimize hierarchically
descending control. Of course this "skeleton"-societymodel can be fleshed
out with substantial optimisation, and does require some stabilizing
structure on the top level, which has not yet been invented, but the study
is a marvellous crystallization of concept in its true and mistaken
connotation. !!Chaos is not Anarchy!!

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki
FINLAND
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 14:33:58 GMT
From: retants@cmx.npac.syr.edu (Becki Tants)
Subject: Re: Choosing your Own Universe

hmmmm.....
   Edding's Belgeriad/Mallorian isn't bad at all...I like the magic system
there, and it seemed that everyone who would put in a good day's work was
well enough off......

   Xanth
   Tolkien's the Lord of the Rings
   CJ Cherryh's (sp) Merchanter's Luck and DownBelow Station world
        (I've played the Company War under traveller.....GREAT game
         especially since we were a merchant family....we won)

One observation....
Nobody yet has mentioned Donaldson's Covenant world.....
  can't imagine why (heavy sarcasm...)

Becki Tants
RETANTS@SUVM.BITNET
RETANTS@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 20:12:39 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@mtune.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: Choose your own Universe

One universe that I am surprised hasn't come up is Oz.  I would choose this
world mainly because of the uniqueness of the characters there.  It is also
apparently impossible to die there.  Baum has Dorothy all but admit this in
the fifth book (My guess would be to cut someone's head off and burn what
was left).  There are also frequent enough appearances by nasties to make
life a little interesting.  Besides I think princess Ozma is a neat ruler.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 17:03:31 GMT
From: csrdi@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (Janet: rick@uk.ac.ed)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

SF: Gibson's. But then, I have a feeling we'll be there in 20 years....

Fantasy: Cabell's Poictesme is appealing. Or maybe Narnia?

Hybrids: McCaffrey's Pern. 

Hon. Mention: Zelazny's Amber. 

Rick
Janet: rick@uk.ac.ed
BITNET: rick%uk.ac.ed@UKACRL
ARPA: rick@ed.ac.uk
UUCP: rick%uk.ac.ed%ukc@mcvax

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 15:37:21 GMT
From: azm@datalogic.co.uk ( Anthony Meadley )
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

Well for me, the world simply has to be Michael Moorcock's World at the End
of Time. The power to create totally one's own environment - sounds good to
me !!

And such fun people too !!!

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 00:21:36 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

For myself, one of:

   Niven's Known Space
   McCaffrey's Pern
   Greg Stafford's Glorantha (sorry, FRP, not really SF/F)
   Roddenberry's Star Trek

Jeff Okamoto
HP Corporate Computing Center
(415) 857-6236
okamoto%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 22:44:11 GMT
From: sarge@con.berkeley.edu (Steven Sargent)
Subject: Re: choose your universe

> Now nobody laugh, or ask me to see a shrink, but I think that I would
> prefer to be on earth in the setting of Lucifer's Hammer by Pournell and
> Niven. I am fascinated by end of the world (as we know it) stories, and

I like this idea.  I think I'd rather live in Brin's /Postman/ world
though.  It's quite similar, but the "good" societies don't worship nuclear
power and the yucky cannibals are more convincingly routed.

Steven Sargent
sarge@scam.berkeley.edu/sarge%scam.berkeley.edu@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
...!ucbvax!scam!sarge

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 21:41:21 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Unicorn)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

  How's about Stephen Donaldson's Covenant world? What better place can you
go where *everything* is alive around you and fundamentally good? It seems
like a great place where everybody, no matter who you are, can be happy.
Unless of course, you're dealing with Lord Foul, in which case things could
go a bit sour, but I'm thinking about the first series minus the Despiser.
  If your into peace and quiet, there's plenty of that, just go to the
Hills of Andelain(sp?), and everyone can go to Revelwood to learn lore if
they wanted. Equal opportunities for all.
  Any thoughts on this place? Someone mentioned Heaven of the Bible as a
place.  I think this comes as close as possible in fantasy literature in
terms of environment, attitudes, and, I guess I should say, love. Of
course, even heaven has the devil to contend with, so a few Ravers
equalizes things I suppose.

Erik Gorka
Reed College
Box 233
Portland OR  97202
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 9 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:

	       Films - The Hidden (4 msgs) & Seventh Sign &
                       Star Wars (2 msgs) & Aliens (2 msgs) & 
                       Nightflyers (2 msgs) & Dune 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 19:33:50 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Ending of _The_Hidden_ (spoilers)

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
> I was disappointed in one feature of The Hidden. I think the Good Alien
> should either not have been "shown" (the pink light at the end), or
> should have been just as yucky-looking as the Bad Alien. Would have made
> for a nice ambiguous ending, too...

I wondered about that, too, and finally concluded that we were, in fact,
not shown the good guy at the end.  I think the alien didn't transfer
(which would have killed the cop), but rather used an ability not
forshadowed: that of transfering a "vital force".  That is, the alien
jump-started the cop, and did not transfer to him.  This leads me to wonder
what the autopsy of the ex-good-alien-inhabited body would find.

Despite my rationalization which preserves this feature, I too thought that
hiding the fact that both the good and bad guys were equally physically
repulsive in this way was a cheap thing to do.  I don't, on the other hand,
wish for an ambiguous ending... ending on that particular note of discord
wouldn't add much to the picture, since some of the basis of the whole
thing is that the good guy really *is* good.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 01:23:29 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Ending of _The_Hidden_ (spoilers)

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> I was disappointed in one feature of The Hidden. I think the Good Alien
>> should have been just as yucky-looking as the Bad Alien.
> I think the alien didn't transfer (which would have killed the cop), but
> rather used an ability not forshadowed: that of transfering a "vital
> force".

Nope, the "good" alien transferred. You can tell by the reaction of the
cop's daughter.

They did such a good job of foreshadowing in the movie (eg, the
flamethrower) that if this was the case they'd have shown it earlier.

Finally, it's likely that the cop was dead anyway. The alien just did it to
spare the guy's family. Particularly the aforementioned daughter. Just
because the bad alien wasted his bodies doesn't mean a careful tenant
would.

Speaking of foreshadowing... why else make the daughter "special"?

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 19:22:27 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Ending of _The_Hidden_ (spoilers)

> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva)
>> throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop)
>> I think the alien didn't transfer [...] but rather used an ability not
>> forshadowed: [...expending his life to jumpstart the cop...]
> Nope, the "good" alien transferred. You can tell by the reaction of the
> cop's daughter.  [...] why else make the daughter "special"?

Very strange indeed.  The daughter's reaction is exactly what finally
convinced me that the alien *didn't* transfer.  She always refused to go
near, speak to, or touch the "good" alien-inhabited fellow, exhibiting an
intuition that something was "wrong" with him.  Yet at the end, she runs to
her father and embraces him (after a short, suspenseful pause).  This was,
to me, the clincher that the father was not at that time inhabited, and
that the "good" alien had bitten the dust.

> They did such a good job of foreshadowing in the movie (eg, the
> flamethrower) that if this was the case they'd have shown it earlier.

And, of course, Peter has put his finger on just the reason I doubted my
above conclusion as long as I did.  It just didn't fit in very well.  But
remember, Peter's hypothesis doesn't fit in on these grounds very well
either, since there was no foreshadowing of the fact that the "good" guy
was not every bit as repulsive (from the same species in fact) as the "bad"
guy.  In either case, we have a bit of a plot twist at the end, but it
seems to me that the "transfer hypothesis" doesn't fit quite right, as I'll
explain below.

> Finally, it's likely that the cop was dead anyway. The alien just did it
> to spare the guy's family. Particularly the aforementioned daughter.

I know, I know!  It makes Peter's interpretation fit in so nicely!  It is,
in fact, the first thing that sprung to my mind.  Only after thinking about
it for quite some time, trying to analyze what was incongruous about the
ending, was I convinced of the "jump-start" hypothesis.

What convinced me:

   1) the special effect was not one of transfer, as Peter noted
   2) the whole tone of the final scene was one of resolution and
      happy-ending.  This is incongruous of a transfer had occured,
      since we are left wondering if/when he'll be found out by the
      wife, what she'll think, can he function as a earthcop on a long
      term basis, etc, etc, whereas if he jumpstarted the cop, this
      resolution really is a final resolution
   3) the daughter's reaction, as noted above

I wonder if the movie makers intended the ending to be ambiguous?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 88 05:20:52 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Ending of _The_Hidden_ (spoilers)

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
> I wonder if the movie makers intended the ending to be ambiguous?

I think they're keeping it open for a sequel. I sometimes characterise STIV
as "Captain Kirk meets Mork & Mindy". _The Hidden_ is "Mork versus the
Living Dead". How many "Living Dead" sequels have there been?

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 88 19:13:40 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.uucp (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: SEVENTH SIGN

			     THE SEVENTH SIGN
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  In the year of the baby film, a
     pregnant yuppie (Demi Moore) finds herself entangled in
     Biblical prophecy, not just as a student but she herself is a
     sign of coming destruction.  A few too many coincidences in
     the plot, but an okay little film.  Rating: +1.

     Following the success of first ROSEMARY'S BABY and the THE EXORCIST,
there were a number of "Bible prophecy" horror films.  In them, the word of
the Bible took on new relevance as young people in them discover that all
the prophecies and strange symbolism are true and perfectly relevant to our
times.  Films like THE SENTINEL, HOLOCAUST 2000 (a.k.a. THE CHOSEN), and
the three-film OMEN series.  After a while they disappeared, only to return
about a decade later with THE SEVENTH SIGN.  As the run of this sort of
film goes, THE SEVENTH SIGN is probably above average.  Even without the
big Hollywood treatment that Twentieth Century Fox gave THE OMEN, this is a
nice suspenseful story well told.

     There are funny things happening in the world.  Off Haiti there are
fish dying and washing up on shore.  In the Negev Desert an entire village
is found frozen.  But then weird things happen every day.  We see them on
the news over dinner and then they get forgotten.  Abby Quinn (played by
Demi Moore) sees and forgets a lot of news.  Her interests are more
worrying about the baby that she will very soon have.  She also worries
about her husband's career as a criminal defense lawyer (he is played by
Michael Biehn) and about the mysterious boarder (played by Jurgen Prochnow)
who has come to live above her garage.  The audience knows this mysterious
figure has been present at each of the strange events that has happened
fulfilling some sort of mission.  It all has to do with a prophecy of seven
signs that the end of the world is coming.  One of the signs has something
to do with Abby, but what sign, and why?  Well, since even the film is
confused about what the signs are (in fact, it outright contradicts
itself), it is not surprising that Abby does not know the signs.  The story
unravels to a nice piece of fantasy as will a good horror story.

     It is nice to see Demi Moore in a film that calls for her to be a
little more than just a yuppie.  On the other hand, this may be Michael
Biehn's most forgettable role, as a lawyer with little personality.  Not
that he had a lot of personality in TERMINATOR or ALIENS, but there he was
enough action so that you did not notice.  John Heard has a cameo as a
likable Catholic priest, somewhat recreating his role from HEAVEN HELP US.
THE SEVENTH SIGN is not a great horror film.  A year from now it will play
one month on cable (guaranteed!  It's a Tri-Star film) and then probably be
forgotten.  But it is a reasonable little exercise in Bible horror.  Rate
it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Apr 88 09:28:56 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Star Wars

I re-watched "Return of the Jedi" during the weekend, and a number of
questions occurred to me.

1. When Obi-Wan "died", he came back as a shimmery figure. When Yoda
"died", he came back as a shimmery figure. When Annakin "Darth Vader"
Skywalker "died", he came back as a shimmery figure. What will the Emperor
come back as? Watch Episode VII and find out.

2. In "Star Wars", aka "Episode IV - A New Hope", we saw Han shoot a
green/blue alien named Greedo. A few minutes later, we saw Greedo walking
in the streets of Tatooine. We also saw him in Jabba's court. This implies
either resurrection or a whole race. Anyone know what this race is called?

3. The standard Imperial blaster is a modified Sterling SMG. Their heavier,
squad level weapon (Chewie took one in "Star Wars") is a modified German
MG34.  They also used a modified Lewis gun in "Star Wars". Has anyone
identified other weapons?

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 88 19:27:54 GMT
From: russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: Re: Star Wars

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
>3. The standard Imperial blaster is a modified Sterling SMG. Their
>heavier, squad level weapon (Chewie took one in "Star Wars") is a modified
>German MG34.  They also used a modified Lewis gun in "Star Wars". Has
>anyone identified other weapons?

Han's blaster was modelled on a Mauser military pistol ca 1896.

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St
Omro WI 54963
russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 05:57:13 GMT
From: UBG@psuvma.bitnet
Subject: The movie ALIENS

General observations and questions about ALIENS...

1. The SULACO seems awfully big to hold just a section of Marines.
  Perhaps the other section in the Platoon was left behind when
  they left Earth "in a hurry". This would help explain why a spare
  shuttle was on board, but there was no one to pilot it.

2. Those Auto-Rifles seem awfully small to hold about 100 rounds of
  "caseless 10mm High-Explosive".

3. Why is the Platoon Sergeant wearing US Army chevrons, and not USMC?
  Although this is a moot point I admit, since insignia do change.

4. In the credits, as I recall, the characters' ranks were listed as
  "Private" and "PFC". I assume they ment "PFC" and "Lance Corporal",
  respectively.

5. FUSION REACTORS DON'T GO NUKE, DAMMIT!

ubg%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:...rutgers!psuvax!/psuvma.BITNET!ubg

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 16:42:01 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: The movie ALIENS

UBG@PSUVMA.BITNET writes:
>General observations and questions about ALIENS...
>1. The SULACO seems awfully big to hold just a section of Marines.
>  Perhaps the other section in the Platoon was left behind when
>  they left Earth "in a hurry". This would help explain why a spare
>  shuttle was on board, but there was no one to pilot it.

First, the ship itself is likely filled to the brim with armaments for
spaceborn warfare and is bound to be a lot "faster" than non-military
ships, meaning that its engines will need more power (bigger power supply)
and will themselves be bigger.  The ship also obviously held landing craft
and probably held small ship-to-ship craft.  More space.  And obviously
ammunition for whatever exotic weapons we didn't see would take up space.
Nah, the ship is about the right size.

About the second shuttle, redundancy in a military situation can be
decisive.

>2. Those Auto-Rifles seem awfully small to hold about 100 rounds of
>  "caseless 10mm High-Explosive".

Caseless ammunition is a lot smaller.  This discussion has been held
before, though; you don't even need to explosively propel the ammunition --
it could be done with a railgun technique.  Yes, there is muzzle flash in
the movie but there is also a limit to how much they can do in a movie, and
it adds sensationalism.  As for powering a railgun, there's a lot of space
in a gun where you could put power storage or generation devices.

>5. FUSION REACTORS DON'T GO NUKE, DAMMIT!

Really?  Ever seen one?  I would imagine that the design of the reactor
would have something to do with it; a fusion bomb is a fusion reactor with
all the restraints taken off, in my opinion.

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 06:02:18 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Nightflyers

I just saw _Nightflyers_ on video, and I was wondering what opinions people
who saw it had of it.  I felt the plot line and characterization was good
to very good, but the special effects were pretty cheezy and the ending was
marked with cliche's such as the re-animated decapitated telepath and the
corpse of Adara somehow suddenly brought back to life.  I enjoyed it, but I
felt it could have been done much better.  The outstanding features of the
movie, for me, were the level of suspense maintained throught the first
half, the way the telepathy was handled and the way the zero-gravity scenes
were carried out (flawlessly as far as I'm concerned).

Any comments on _Nightflyers_?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 15:53:11 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Nightflyers

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>Any comments on _Nightflyers_?

I didn't see the movie, but I read the novella when it was in Analog.
Brrrrr!  I didn't _want_ to see the movie.

A lot of the stuff you objected to (the reanimated head, etc.) was in the
novella, near as I can recall.  Did they have the part about one of the
characters being chased by a disembodied eyeball?

Good if you like horror, I suppose.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...!uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 20:37:02 GMT
From: STEVE@ukcc.bitnet ("Thomson, Steve")
Subject: Dune: The Movie - my two cents worth.

   Personally I like much of the movie, but I feel Lynch could have
improved it about 500% by sticking a little closer to the book.  Examples:

1.  Early in the movie, Duke Leto is walking with Paul down a hall.
    He could have stopped to talk to a guard, asking about the guard's
    family, and how they felt about the move to Arrakis (sp?).
    Then he could have used that as a lesson to Paul in leadership.
    One short scene would have said much of why Leto's men were so
    loyal.
2.  About 2/3s of the way through the movie we have a scene with Gurney
    Halleck guiding smugglers to spice.  In the book the scene is used as
    a recapitulation of the Fremen revolt to explain what was going on.
    It could have been much the same in the movie.  Also, in the movie,
    the next scene or so, has a bunch of sweaty Fremen charging over a
    sand dune into the smugglers.  How much more to the point would it
    have been had they come bursting forth from the sand when the smugglers
    disembarked.
3.  The little scene of Leto's men marching in step when the sound guns
    are displayed on Calaban (sp?). It did introduce a bit of inadvertent
    comedy, but personally, I thought it was stupid, and hardly a good
    comment on Leto's leadership.
4.  The final battle with the emperor of the known universe riding a
    little 4 way see-saw with a three other Mexican general types
    was hilarious, but not the effect I think he actually wanted.
    Following the book would have been better (and cheaper!).
5.  The sound guns.  Unnecessary and disruptive of one of the cultural
    points made in the book.

It has been years since I saw the movie.  I vaguely remember some other
scenes, but one of my strongest impressions was that it could easily have
been so much better.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 9 May 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (11 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 23:22:48 GMT
From: smith@cos.uucp
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web5a.berkeley.edu.UUCP () writes:
>     It seems that many of you have labeled Heinlein as pornographic.
>Have you actually read any of his work, or are you going by what the
>masses believe?  I have read every single novel/short story written by
>him. And as Jubal told Ben, "I see the beauty in what he(Mike) is trying
>to create."  As Jubal also tells Ben, "He(Mike) has seen the sickness of
>our culture, and in order to correct to reform, he first must throw away
>the moral standards established by the masses."  I don't think those are
>exact words, but something like it.  Anyway, I see the beauty in what
>Heinlein is trying to achieve, even though he says what, insead of how..

The problem is not that RAH's later books contain badly done sex scenes.
Indeed, badly done sex scenes are somewhat characteristic of most of
current literature, inside SF and out.  I can think, right off hand, of
about three authors that can handle explicit sex well.

The problem is that RAH stands accused of the two worst crimes in the book:

1.  He is successful, without making the proper kowtows toward the Gods
    of Literary Merit.

2.  He is accused of (drum roll) RIGHT WING POLITICS.  This justifies
    any insult and makes logic unnecessary.

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 03:01:53 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

Kevin Cherkauer writes:
>All the other ones use rather...well...dare I say it?...FASCIST (oooooooh
>|I feel a flame attack coming on. Asbestos suit on and damn the cancer!!)
>philosophies.
>
>E.g.: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, where the idea is to "free" the
>lunar colonies by setting up a dictatorship of 3, then completely fixing
>the "elections" so these people could get who they wanted into office.

I like the way you attack the method of the revolutionaries, I suppose you
feel that the Warden/Authority dictatorship was much less "fascist"

Then he babbles some more...

>Also, the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout
>the book is this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is
>bad breath that they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.
>Let them breathe vacuum."

Actually, those who were socially disruptive would get spaced.

I am really curious as to your reading methodolgy.  You seem to twist
everything to support your viewpoint.  If you discuss the book with someone
else some time, who has no idea of your impressions you will find a
remarkably different interpretation than your own..

ARPA: Philip.Verdieck@andrew.cmu.edu
      PV04+@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: r746pv04@CMCCVB
UUCP: ...!{harvard,ucbvax}!andrew.cmu.edu!pv04

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 88 11:48:54 GMT
From: sfbt@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (S Tett)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

>>Are these quotes from _Stranger in a Strange Land_? If so, then you are
>>lucky to have read the only Heinlein novel I have ever come across that
>>advocates peace and love and all-that-hippie-stuff as the road to the
>>perfect society.

>      It would be helpful if you are more specific in your argument,
>instead of declaring your view of the novel and assume the people will
>believe.  Give concrete examples to support your idea that Heinlein's
>philosophy is "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
>breath that they have -- and chuch them out the nearest airlock.  Let them
>breathe vacume."  I, for one, didn't arive at such idea.

That is certainly what DOES happen on Luna in the book, and I don't think
there were any plans to change this after the revolution (after all, the
fuss and nonsense generated by courts would be rather anti the spirit of
the revolution).  A not dissimilar philosophy is also expounded in `Beyond
this Horizon' where the armed citizens are expected to defend their honour
to the death. Heinlein claims this doesn't happen much and keeps people
polite and the slow ones *deserve* to die anyhow :-) Perhaps his ideas of a
perfect society have changed ?

Claire Jones

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 11:30:11 GMT
From: nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU
Subject: The Green Hills of Earth

    In his short story "The Green Hills of Earth", Heinlein included
several excerpts from a poem by the same name.  Did Heinlein actually
finish the poem, or did he just write the portions in the story?  If not
Heinlein, then it strikes me as very likely that various fans have written
their own completions.  I would greatly appreciate hearing about any
completions anyone out there may know about.  Thank you.

Louis Howell
nazgul@math.mit.edu

------------------------------

From: RML3362@tamvenus.bitnet (Mike Litchfield 'Flashback')
Subject: HEINLEIN!!!
Date: 3 May 88 06:25:00 GMT
Sender: news@rutgers.edu
Apparently-To: sf-lovers@elbereth.rutgers.edu

Uh, oh, there ya go ya had to go and do it, ya called Mr. Heinlein names.
Personally I consider his works to be some of the finest in science ficton.
The gentle man has written works portraying almost every concievable facet
of the human condition in a favorable light, yet some people insist on
interpreting him as a
Fascist
Anarchist
Religious reformer
Athiest
Homosexual
Bi-sexual
Omni-sexual
Asexual
(the list goes on for quite a bit...)
I do not know the good sir personally but I do know one thing, he is a
writer (proof: he not only makes money writing, he makes good money
writing), and it is a writers job to entertain us and if they can also
teach us, wake us, and excite us then all the better, exspecially if they
can do it with out forcing it down our throat.  I am not a writer I don't
do this well if you want to see someone do this well try "Rah Rah R.A.H."
by Spider Robinson. (The second greatest writer I like)

Michael Litchfield
RML3362@TAMVENUS.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 14:03:52 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> E.g.: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, where the idea is to "free" the
> lunar colonies by setting up a dictatorship of 3, then completely fixing
> the "elections" so these people could get who they wanted into office.
> Also, the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout the
> book is this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
> breath that they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.  Let
> them breathe vacuum."

Is there some implication that Heinlein was setting up "Free Luna" as his
idea some sort of ideal society?  I'm not sure it is credible that anybody
with two brain cells to rub together could come to such a conclusion, but I
suppose stranger things have happened.

Just because *Mannie* says Free Luna is great is little or no indication
that Heinlein thinks it is.  In fact, there are many suggestive scenes
where, it seemed to me, Heinlein was poking fun at Mannie's naivete.

It seemed to me that, rather than trying to portray an ideal society in the
making, Heinlein was trying to describe a practical revolution.  In
practical revolutions (successful ones against such long odds, anyhow) the
revolutionaries tend to concentrate on getting the job done, and worry
about rebuilding society afterwards.

Again, I see no evidence that Heinlein was presenting an ideal world here,
and plenty of evidence that he was not.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 14:49:11 GMT
From: cipher@mmm.uucp (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

Jerry_Geronimo_Whitnell@cup.portal.com writes:
>>... the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout the
>>book is this: "Take anyone you don't like ... and chuck them out the
>>nearest airlock..."
>The colonist did have an informal court system (see page 124) which was
>used to decide whether someone was tossed out the airlock.  As things
>worked out there were very few eliminations (pg 132) and women and
>children were far safer on the streets then in any earthside city.

I think you have missed the point.  The fact that Heinlein portrayed this
rather arbitrary system of justice in such a positive light is, I believe,
what the original poster was complaining about.  This tends to support the
view that Heinlein _advocates_ such a system.

P.S.: I feel this argument has absolutely no bearing on whether to read
Heinlein.  I learned to think for myself at an early age, and I am not
concerned that positive portrayals of stupid systems of government will
contaminate my thinking.  Your vision is very narrow is you only read
authors whose opinions you agree with.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!esdlab!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 14:54:20 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein books

jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt) writes:
> Heinlein had the (species?) "Homo Novis" as a centerpoint in his story
> "Gulf" in the book Assignment in Eternity a couple of decades ago.  They
> were mentioned in passing in Friday.  Anybody know anyplace else they
> show up?

Not that I know of.  They were, of course, (in "Gulf" at least) one of the
more nauseating examples of Heinlein's characters' smug superiority and
disgustingly fallacious social-darwinistic drivel.  There are other
examples, of course, but this is, as I say, one of the most
stomach-churning.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 11:40:00 GMT
From: BREEBAAR@hlerul5.bitnet
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

Question to the Net: Has anyone actually *read* Heinlein's 'To Sail Beyond
The Sunset'? It has been mentioned a few times lately; always as a prime
example of Thrash/Hack SF; but no-one said anything more detailed. I have
finished the paperback last weekend, and I am afraid that I must agree with
the general sentiment about it: though it held my undivided attention right
up to the last page (no Heinlein ever failed to do that), it is a rather
boring novel, with incredibly obvious plot devices, and the constant sex
does wear thin after a while.  But reading this book, together with the
recent postings about Heinlein and the fact that he still is my all-time
favourite author (so call me Simple), are causing me to break my silence
and subject you all to my opinions on the various matters that have come
up. I am afraid this might get somewhat long...

HEINLEIN AND PORNOGRAPHY
Ridiculous things first. As already pointed out: Naked Girls on Covers do
not pornography make. And neither does writing about sex. Look, I have been
a 14 year old male once. I have read pornography. Heinlein does not even
come close!  Of course, he writes a lot about 'it', but pick up *any*
'best-seller' from the last fifteen years or so, and you'll find more
detailed descriptions of sex/rape/SM etc. than he has ever done. To be
honest, 'Sunset' *is* his most explicit book ever, but however bad Heinlein
may write, he does *not* put sex into his books to spice them up. How many
writers can say that?

HEINLEIN AND SEXISM
This is even more ridiculous. I am trying very hard not to come across as
some sort of Heinlein-freak who worships everything the man says blindly,
but the arguments put forward by Mark Interrante to support this claim are
very misleading. The man writes a 300+ page book, yet you quote one
sentence completely out of context to accuse him of favouring rape.
Instead, look at the following three novels: 'Podkayne from Mars' (1963),
'I will fear no evil' (1972?) and 'Sunset' (1987). Don't just look, *read*
them.  I would really like to know (and I seriously mean this) how any
intelligent person can read these three books (each with women as main
characters) and conclude that Heinlein is sexist. And notice the time-span
'63 - '87!  Unorthodox views, sure. Incest, soit. Women actually enjoying
sex, how horrible!  If anything, it is the *men* that are portrayed as
slightly simple, big lumps of clay in these assertive women's hands. (Isn't
Lazarus Long the one person who has the most qualms at performing(?)
'perfectly reasonable' incest?)  Finally, though I did not like 'Sunset'
much, there was one part that really got to me: the part about the role of
women in todays' society, where Heinlein comes up with the statement that
in modern society a man is innocent until proven guilty, but a woman is
submissive until proven otherwise. This is hitting the nail so exactly on
the head regarding as to what is still *wrong* with women's emancipation
today, that I feel I can safely rest my case now. Any comments?

HEINLEIN AND FASCISM
Here things are not so easy, disregarding for the moment the question of
whether he actually believes the things he writes (I for one am certainly
conviced he does - most of the time).  Heinlein has an assertive way of
writing that can be very convincing/misleading if you don't watch it. He
always states - or lets his characters state - view- points as if they are
*facts*, while they are of course merely opinions.  (i.e. not "I don't think
much of people who abandon kittens", but rather "People who abandon kittens
should be shot". It is not the shooting I object to, but the use of
'should'.) This is what makes him appear so aggressive to many people.  This
is also what keeps his books so fast-paced and non-dreary.

And as pointed out by Leer in a recent posting: Heinlein suffers from never
realizing that real-life people are not as perfect and good and completely
devoid of petty jealousies as most of his heroes -or officials in his
military organizations.  This is what -in my opinion- would cause a
government such as described in 'Starship Troopers' to be nothing but a
horrible first step towards tyranny, dictatorship, oppression and murder.
Just wait until the first corruption starts appearing...  As a complete
aside - this is also what I think is wrong with communism in, say, the
USSR. Theoretically I can accept the system, but practically it won't work
as long as the big shots get to ride the limousines, smoke the cigarettes,
watch the Hollywood movies and do *not* have to stand in line for food.
And as another aside - this is also the reason that incest and group
weddings such as he favours are unpractical in real life: real people are
not Heinlein heroes!  Last example: when in 'Harsh Mistress' terrorist
attacks or rigged elections are used, the instigators are always the really
truly very good guys who will never misuse their power once they have
gained it. But in the real world, power corrupts. No argument.

Thanks for bearing with me and what do *you* think? (I am especially
interested in what the female sflovers think about all this.)

Leo Breebaart
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 19:29:42 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

>I think you have missed the point.  The fact that Heinlein portrayed this
>rather arbitrary system of justice in such a positive light is, I believe,
>what the original poster was complaining about.  This tends to support the
>view that Heinlein _advocates_ such a system.

No it doesn't. It just means Heinlein happened to think he could write an
interesting story with that viewpoint.

One of the fastest ways to piss off a writer is to tell them that, since
they wrote something a specific way, they have to believe it. It can be
true. Most of the time, it isn't. If you don't believe me, try it on Harlan
Ellison some time, since he's constantly being harrangued on this. In fact,
on at least one story (Croatoan) he's been jumped on by BOTH sides of the
argument, since the pro-abortionists saw it as an anti-abortion story, and
the anti-abortionists saw it as a pro-abortion story.

And if you read it, you'll see it's neither, but that's beside the point.

The work is not the author. The author is not the work. And making
generalizations from one to the other is very hazardous.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 02:26:39 GMT
From: roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein's society

Now how can you say that Heinlein didn't at least highly approve of the
Free Luna society?  Elements and major chunks of it and its philosophy show
up almost continually in Heinlein's later works.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 10 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:

	      Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) & Doctor Who &
                           UFO (6 msgs) & Space:1999 (4 msgs) &
                           Tomorrow People

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Apr 88 17:03:46 GMT
From: rkolker@netxcom.uucp (rich kolker)
Subject: ST:TNG wins Peabody

Star Trek : The Next Generation has won a Peabody award for the episode
"The Big Goodbye".  The citation described it as "excellent,
thought-provoking entertainment programming which signals a new commitment
to quality in first-run syndication..."

The George Foster Peabody Awards mark excellence in broadcasting and are
administered by the University of Gerogia.  They have been awarded annually
(except for 1943) since 1940.

Rich Kolker            
8519 White Pine Drive  
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)      
(703)749-2315 (w)
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 88 02:52:12 GMT
From: NCC1701@umass.bitnet
Subject: A thought or two on the next generation...

  I think it is improving quite a bit, I actually look forward to seeing it
each week now.  This week's episode looks quite interesting in the
previews.  I suspect it is the first time (unless you count the repulsor
beam in the kidnaping kids) that you see the Enterprise fired upon and the
effects, plus I suspect that for the first time the Enterprise will
actually fire back.  What a concept!  Tis time for the ship to have a good
fight, although I don't want to see them fighting all the time, it is about
time for one to happen.  Perhaps the last few weeks' episodes were leading
up to that?  Good work, Gene!

  The last two episodes where they showed the essence of Wesley and Worf I
think were pretty good.  Between the two, I liked the Worf one better.  I
think the Wesley one strengthenned his character quite a bit.  On Worf's
episode, he is there forever now if he wants it.

  One point that puzzles me though is that they keep showing Yar, the
security chief as a highly emotional person who jumps to conclusions and
gets overuled quite a bit.  Now, I know she wants out and is due to lose it
soon, but portraying her that way for now just doesnt cut it.  Speaking as
an expert in the security field, more specifically a police department in a
major city, she is portrayed as a watered down, ineffective person.  Her
character is totally unreal and I think that Gene et al should know
better...

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 88 09:03:01 GMT
From: sqphil@liv-cs.uucp
Subject: st:tng episode list request

Over here, in good old back-water Britain, we are not yet getting ST:TNG on
the TV, instead we have to rush out to our nearest video hire shop, and
hire the episodes when they appear. We won't get the epsiodes onthe TV
until 1991 I think. What I would like, is for some knowledgeable person to
give me a list of the titles of all the episodes so far. On video we've had

"Encounter at Farpoint"

"The Naked Now" & "Code of Honour"

Are these in sequence, or have we missed out on some episodes in between?
What I'm trying to discover is whether we are going to see all the episodes
released on video, or just selected ones. It might be better if anybody
with this information could email me directly, rather than cause a lot of
traffic on USENET.

Phil Jimmieson
Computer Science Dept.
Liverpool University
Merseyside, England
(UK)051-709-6022 x 2501  
JANET : SQPHIL@UK.AC.LIV.CSVAX                   
UUCP  : {backbone}!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!SQPHIL 
ARPA  : SQPHIL%csvax.liv.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk  

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 17:45:00 GMT
From: otten@cincom.umd.edu ("NEIL OTTENSTEIN")
Subject: ST:TNG "THE SKIN OF EVIL"

SPOILERS:::

Well, Lt. Yar was finally killed.  I was a bit surprised that it went so
quickly and quite similarly to the quick losses in the old series to
one-shot players.  When I first heard she was going to die I thought it
would be in some kind of dramatic send off.  She did get to give her
biggest "speech" of the series.  I wonder how the actor who took the place
of Riker in the slime felt about doing that.  I'm sure they didn't make
Jonathan Frakes (?) go through that.  What a part.

Neil Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 88 09:09:56 GMT
From: milne@ics.uci.edu (Alastair Milne)
Subject: (none)

In "Key to Time" #3, "The Stones of Blood", a ship is found marooned in
hyperspace very near Earth.  The model they used for the ship looks rather
like one of the toys in exquisite ironwork that the Victorians loved.  It's
a marvellous model, and I'm very intrigued: does anybody know what it is,
or where it came from?  One thing it distinctly does NOT look like is any
space ship I've ever seen.

PS. For those Dr. Who followers who don't recognise this episode, it's from
the Doctor's 4th generation (Tom Baker's).

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 15:12:47 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk 
Subject: More on UFO (Was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

gberg@leadsv.UUCP (Gail Berg) writes:
>rwn@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes:
>My most vivid memory of this show was the episode where everyone and
>everything moving when the aliens passed by and was frozen.  Straker and a
>girl were the only two humans unaffected.  They wander all over the studio
>seeing chairs in midair and birds in midwing.

   This was where a traitor had sold out to the aliens (don't remember how
they were to pay him !) and had installed a time-slowing device at SHADO.
Straker and the "girl" (Col. V. Lake) were out on business at the time,
which is why they weren't (immediately affected).

The episode opens with a brilliant bit, with everyone "waking up" and
seeing Straker smashing the place up (including the device) 'cos of some
"speed-up" drugs he and Virginia had taken.

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 25 Apr 88 14:54:12 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk 
Subject: Gerry Anderson's UFO (was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>blu@hall.UUCP (Brian Utterback) writes:
>[ about UFO ]
>> ... I don't remember whether or not we see the aliens, but I do remember
>>that they were water breathers, who used an ugly green liquid for an
>>atmosphere.

We DO see them (in the first episode, in fact). They normally breath air,
just like (maybe they are) us. The liquid is for space-travel only.
More info below. 

>They breathed a green oxygenated liquid. This protected the lungs against
>high G forces.
>
>>I always thought it was kind of strange that the movie studio would sink
>>into the ground during an attack.
>
>You are confusing UFO with Stingray.
>
>The whole base in stingray could sink into the ground.
>
>Ed Straker's office was a disguised lift down into the SHADO HQ.

   Our local TV station, TVS, here in the UK has just started a rerun of
the entire series. We DO see the aliens (frequently), they're humanoid; in
fact, they're so human, the word "aliens" is almost a mistake where they're
concerned.

Basically, they (like the Invaders, David Vincent & Co) come from a dying
planet. It has (presumably) been mined, polluted, "greenhouse a(e)ffected",
deforested, etc., and the aliens are only managing to breed via fertility
drugs. They come to Earth to take human beings and "gut" them for spare
parts(ie., transplant surgery). It is not made entirely clear (though the
episode with the telepathic human in it suggests so) whether or not they
actually want Earth itself, or not.

I've waited for UFO to come round for some time now, and am particularly
interested in the alien society. I would guess it to be something of a
cross between "1984" and "Blade Runner(ish)", that is an anti-utopia where
a totalitarian government runs a society in which the average person lives
in low-grade blocks, and the few green and fertile areas of the planet left
belong to the members of the ruling class, or the rich (not necessarily the
same).

In fact, someone could write a great episode along these lines! 

I would be interested from anyone who has ANY comments on UFO, or more
info.

Glad to see it back.

Thanks in advance,

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 08:23:14 GMT
From: ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter)
Subject: Re: More on UFO (Was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

About the aliens being humanoid, well in one episode you find out they are
actually human beings, who the aliens have captured and somehow taken over
or 'robotised' (for want of a better word.)

I can't quite remember why, but I'm sure that it was something like the
aliens were physically incapable of space flight or something.  I know the
bit about aliens taking over humans is right because Straker discovers an
alien who is actually someone he knew or an autopsy on a dead alien
discovers the fact they're human or something like that, I'm a little fuzzy
on details I'm afraid.  I'm sure someone will know.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 16:40:35 GMT
From: sqkeith@csvax.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Gerry Anderson's UFO (was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

>    Our local TV station, TVS, here in the UK has just started a rerun of
> the entire series. []
> 
> I would be interested from anyone who has ANY comments on UFO, or more
> info.
> 
> Glad to see it back.

Granada reran the whole series a few months ago and yes, I enjoyed it
thoroughly. What I would like to know, however is: Why did the moonbase
beauties have purple hair on the moon but normal hair colours on Earth.
Applying logic to the situation dictates that surely Mssrs Paul Foster et
al..  should have been subjected to the same treatment (ho ho).

On a similar vein:

I can't wait for Granada (and ITV in general) to repeat bits (or all) of
the 1st series of Space:1999. I found that equally superb except for the
continuous wailing of 'Oh John, boo hoo, winge etc..' from Dr. Helena
Russell.

Keith Halewood
Janet:    sqkeith@csvax.liv.ac.uk
UUCP:     ...!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!sqkeith
Internet: sqkeith%csvax.liv.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 16:05:47 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: More on UFO (Was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter) writes:
>I know the bit about aliens taking over humans is right because
>Straker  discovers an alien who is actually someone he knew or an
>autopsy on a dead alien discovers the fact they're human or something like
>that, I'm a little fuzzy on details I'm afraid.

It's a bit more grizzly than that. BITS of the alien were human. Humans are
being used as unwilling spare part donors to keep the aliens going.

Some humans were captured, taken over, and packaged in the alien's
spacesuit and green liquid, but they were not typical aliens.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 11:56:02 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Gerry Anderson's UFO (was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

sqkeith@csvax.liv.ac.uk writes:
>>    Our local TV station, TVS, here in the UK has just started a rerun of
>> the entire series. []
>Granada reran the whole series a few months ago and yes, I enjoyed it
>thoroughly.

It has been doing the rounds for a while. Grampian was re-running the first
half dozen episodes in a late-night slot when I posted an article that the
above was a followup to.  The TVS has just been giving themselves a lot of
cheap publicity by announcing that it is doing what the other tv stations
have been doing all along.

the Original posting I was replying to was asking...

> .... What I would like to know, however is: Why did the moonbase
>beauties have purple hair on the moon but normal hair colours on Earth.

Which seems to be a good candidate for the "most asked
questions" list.

They are wearing what the books describe as "Anti-static wigs".

>Applying logic to the situation dictates that surely Mssrs Paul Foster et
>al..  should have been subjected to the same treatment (ho ho).

Yes, they should have been. But applying logic isn't what TV SF programme
makers are good at. They would never have designed the Interceptors the way
they did otherwise.

There is a computer controlling targeting and launch of the missiles, but
the craft are manned.

This delays response time, increases the unuseable payload of the craft
(the pilot, life support and return fuel) and gives the Aliens a chance to
slip through.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 13:51:31 GMT
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: SPACE:1999

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>I recently saw what I thought was the Space:1999 pilot on TV, . . .
>turned out to be the true pilot BREAKAWAY and another episode WARGAMES
>spliced together. This is not the first time that wrong episodes have been
>stuck togther under the wrong title. Why do they keep doing this?

This is done for several old programs, notably (that I have seen), SPACE:
1999, SPIDERMAN, and PLANET OF THE APES.  Another poster also mentioned, I
think, TIME TUNNEL.  It is clearly an inexpensive way for the distributors
to "create" and sell filler, oops, movies, to independent stations who
don't want to buy a whole series.

JBL
BBN Communications Corporation
50 Moulton Street
Cambridge, MA  02238
(617) 873-3463
UUCP: {backbone}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 17:53:51 GMT
From: drwho@bsu-cs.uucp (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: SPACE:1999

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
> I recently saw what I thought was the Space:1999 pilot on TV, only it was
> listed in the TV Guide as ALIEN ATTACK. Now there was never a 1999
> episode by that title, although a novelization was written. ALIEN ATTACK
> turned out to be the true pilot BREAKAWAY and another episode WARGAMES
> spliced together. This is not the first time that wrong episodes have
> been stuck togther under the wrong title. Why do they keep doing this?

It is probably because it is easier to introduce the series in places where
it is not known.  I don't know, they could just SYNDICATE the series
again...oh well.

By the way, here are the movies:

ALIEN ATTCK -- _Breakaway_ & _War Games_
JOURNEY THROUGH THE BLACK SUN (?) -- _Black Sun_ & _Collision Course_
DESTINATION:  MOONBASE ALPHA -- _The Bringers of Wonder_
THE COSMIC PRINCESS -- _The Metamorph_ & whichever one had Maya infected
   with some disease that made her insane

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.	 
Muncie, IN 47303         
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 22:02:32 GMT
From: toad@mondas.ucsb.edu ( )
Subject: Re: SPACE:1999 & Question.

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>I recently saw what I thought was the Space:1999 pilot on TV, only it was
>listed in the TV Guide as ALIEN ATTACK. Now there was never a 1999 episode
>by that title, although a novelization was written. ALIEN ATTACK turned
>out to be the true pilot BREAKAWAY and another episode WARGAMES spliced
>together. This is not the first time that wrong episodes have been stuck
>togther under the wrong title. Why do they keep doing this?

Yeah, I also recently viewed "The Cosmic Princess," which in reality was
the second season's first two episodes stuck back-to-back.  They really
botched up the opening sequences too, what with the ugly "Cosmic Princess"
title painted over beautiful "SPACE:1999"

Does anyone know what happened to Victor, the slide-rule wielding artifical
heart implantee scientist who was such a major character during the first
season and then mysteriously vanished in the second season?

Tom Marazita
University of California at Santa Barbara
Center for Computational Sciences and Engineering.
Santa Barbara, CA 93106
(805) 961-3221 
ARPA:toad@hub.ucsb.edu
BITNET:toad@sbitp.bitnet
CSNET:toad%ucsb
UUCP:...{ucbvax,ucsd,pyramid}!ucsbcsl!toad

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 07:59:39 GMT
From: drwho@bsu-cs.uucp (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: SPACE:1999 & Question.

toad@mondas.ucsb.edu ( ) writes:
> Does anyone know what happened to Victor, the slide-rule wielding
> artifical heart implantee scientist who was such a major character during
> the first season and then mysteriously vanished in the second season?

Unofficial rumor is that he died due to failure of his artificial heart.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN 47303      
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 10:17:52 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Tomorrow People

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
> Has anyone here seen a British SF program called "The Tomorrow
> People"?  As far as I can remember, it involved a group of young

I saw it on Nick as well.  Did it end production-wise after that robot was
turned human and the tomorrow people were beamed up to that galactic
council thing?  That was the last episode I ever saw on nick and would like
to know if there was more.

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 10 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (13 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 05/05/88 12:50:44 EST
From: #GGGALA@wmmvs.bitnet
Subject: heinlein

    I am a _BIG_ fan of R. Heinlein, and I particularly love the way his
books are composing a "history of the future", most of them relating to
events described in other books. His views on the government forms we poor
humans are "enjoying" are the result of a very good observation.  Anybody
want to comment? I know that one either loves or hates Heinlein.  Some of
his books are very controversial. Take "Farnham's Freehold": I think it is
a very good reflection on the racism problem, but some people actually
think that it is a racist book!

Frederic Mora

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 23:35:06 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>>Are you saying that sex is bad? Are you saying that sex is evil? ...
>I did not say sex in SF is bad!! I did not comment about SiSL because I
>_like the novel and understand the sexual passages in the novel.  I
>question the reasoning behind the hero in the story having an incestuous
>relationship with his mother and his "daughters".
 
I would recommend you to examine his reasoning, instead of questioning it.
Heinlein's books almost invariably spell out the reasons and justifications
for unconventional moral stances and pointed exceptions to general rules
that are essentially utilistic. This places him between a rock and a hard
place, since it leaves him seemingly vulnerable to accusations of
longwindedness.  But that comes from trying to present one's ideas in a
form that can be followed by the majority of people able to read, if they
only put some effort into it.
 
In any case, it seems you understand SiSL's sex because it is closer tied
to contemporary morality. You should not question an author's reasoning
without presenting some reasoning on your own part, about why it's not
okay, even if you wash your hands...
  
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki
FINLAND
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 09:59:42 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>First, it is true that we do not discover what an author really believes
>by reading their fiction.  This does not mean that the fiction is no
>evidence, given careful interpretation, but it may not be very reliable
>evidence.  With some authors is is fairly reliable, with others totally
>misleading.

The question that this point raises in my mind is whether an author's
beliefs have anything to do with how we judge his books or whether we buy
them? In my opinion it does not, except in the most extreme cases, such as
a criminal attempting to profit from a memoir or an author who is a quack
and a con man like Hubbard. By and large, a book should be judged on its
plotting, characterization, style, etc. Who wrote it is almost always
immaterial.

>So suppose we accept this point.  Can we then say nothing about *Heinlein*
>when discussing his writings?  Well, we can't "Heinlein believes
>vigilantism is fine in service of certain goals", because that's what
>we've agreed we don't really know.  But we can still still say "Heinlein
>wrote The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  And -- as far as this point is
>concerned -- we can say "TMiaHM presents vigilantism in a favorable light"
>or even "Heinlein writes vigilantist propaganda".

Again, I think this kind of speculation is pointless. What is really
important, a books point of view or its literary qualities? I'm certainly
of the opinion that its literary qualities are what matters. One could say
that a book with a negative point of view might be difficult to identify
with, and so less fun to read. But on the other hand, there is much to be
learned from books. Assuming that the book is high quality and not some
propoganda rag, its presentation of a different point of view can only
broaden one's experience.

John L. McKernan
Student
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 00:02:49 GMT
From: elron@ihlpm.att.com (Gary F. York)
Subject: Re: The Green Hills of Earth

Mark,

Wonderful!  It's clear that Heinlein had no need to pretend enjoyment.

It made shivers run all up & down my back -- as a good anthym should.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 18:15:02 GMT
From: rwl@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein.. (what an author believes)

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
> First, it is true that we do not discover what an author really believes
> by reading their fiction.  This does not mean that the fiction is no
> evidence, given careful interpretation, but it may not be very reliable
> evidence.  With some authors is is fairly reliable, with others totally
> misleading.  Moreover, we need independent evidence about the author in
> order to have any chance of telling which case obtains.  But we never
> know for sure what someone truely believes in any case.

Is Heinlein is really so broad-minded (or is it just apathetic) that he can
spend hundreds of pages showcasing a philosophy in which he does not
believe?  And, with a bodhisatva-like lack of ego, never make an attempt to
let his true feelings shine through?

I would say no: He tries to divorce himself from the maunderings of his
main characters (and they *do* tend to talk more than act).

Let's not forget that an author does not only have the words of his
characters at his disposal to convey his ideals.  The outcome of the plot,
the degree of editorialization during expository sections, all set the
stage for the author's beliefs.  In later Heinlein novels (let's say
"Starship Troopers"), the characters with which we are supposed to identify
express beliefs that, from the evidence of the world as it is shown to us,
cannot be anything but correct and therefore held forth for our edification
and approval.

Heinlein is a very heavy-handed author -- there is little ambiguity for the
reader to ponder over.  You know what you're supposed to feel when you read
his books (even the juveniles, though they had less dogma to peddle).

On the basis of this writing style alone I can conclude that Heinlein says
what he means.  If he were just playing philosophical games he wouldn't
need to shove them down your throat.  In fact, if he was so broad-minded,
he'd go out of his way to set the stage in such a way that you were forced
to evaluate the ideas for yourself.

Ray Lubinsky
Department of Computer Science
University of Virginia                     
rwl%uvacs@uvaarpa.virginia.edu  
UUCP:      ...!uunet!virginia!uvacs!rwl    
CSNET:     rwl@cs.virginia.edu  
BITNET:    rwl8y@virginia       

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 02:06:03 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

c60a-4bq@web2h.berkeley.edu.UUCP writes:
>      It would be helpful if you are more specific in your argument,
>instead of declaring your view of the novel and assume the people will
>believe.  Give concrete examples to support your idea that Heinlein's
>philosophy is "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
>breath that they have -- and chuch them out the nearest airlock.  Let them
>breathe vacuum."  I, for one, didn't arive at such idea.

What, do you want page numbers? I wasn't clear enough in paraphrasing what
Manuel kept saying throughout the entire book? The bad breath was an
example he used in the book (said something like, "Often I feel like
throwing assholes who have bad breath in elevators out the nearest
airlock."). There are many other examples of this vigilante "justice" *in
practice* in the book. "Breathe vacuum" was a catch-phrase used many, many
times in the book to describe throwing people out of airlocks.

The dictatorship they set up is an example of fascism *in the book*.

The fixed "elections" are a far right-wing fascist tactic that the
protagonists use *in the book*.

A military takeover is a classic extremist tactic used by many radical
groups throughout history -- many times far-right radical groups -- and is
the method used *in the book*. Of course, the society on Terra that they
free themselves from is also far-right wing (as are most Heinlein
societies), so this may have been the only option.

I did page number references for this book on this net once. Unfortunately,
it just never seems to convince Heinlein fans that, though he may write
well, his political philosophies are almost always on the far, far right
wing.

Note: Heinlein used to take out full page ads in, I believe, the New York
Times promoting the Vietnam War while that war was being fought. Yes, just
bought full pages so he could make his right-wing views public in that sort
of forum. These are obviously *strongly held* right-wing views.  

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk          

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 17:45:28 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Heinlein thanks!

I sent the first batch of mail off to Robert Heinlein today. There were
about 25 cards, letters and packages. To all you folks who took the time to
write, my heartfelt thanks. I'm sure the Heinlein's will appreciate this.
If I get any feedback, I'll pass it along.

If you still haven't sent mail but want to, I'll be passing along stuff as
I get it. You can write to them at the following address:

   Mr. & Mrs. Robert A. Heinlein
   C/O OtherRealms
   35111-F Newark Blvd.
   Suite 255
   Newark, CA 94560

Again, thanks for the support! It's nice to see the net comes through when
it's asked to!

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 02:44:59 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) writes:
>I am really curious as to your reading methodolgy.  You seem to twist
>everything to support your viewpoint.  If you discuss the book with
>someone else some time, who has no idea of your impressions you will find
>aa remarkably different interpretation than your own..

I have done this. I have noticed that it is impossible to convince a
Heinlein fan that Heinlein is not God. That his societies are elitist and
right-wing. That _Waldo_ and _Magic, Inc._ were not really very good pieces
of literature. Etc.

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk          

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 02:34:55 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

Jerry_Geronimo_Whitnell@cup.portal.com writes:
>>Also, the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout
>>the book is this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is
>>bad breath that they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.
>>Let them breathe vacuum."
>Did you read the book, or did someone just tell you the low points?  The
>colonist did have an informal court system (see page 124) which was used
>to decide whether someone was tossed out the airlock.  As things worked
>out there were very few eliminations (pg 132) and women and children were
>far safer on the streets then in any earthside city.

Ah, yes. Criticize a book that has a lot of fan following and get accused
of having never read the book.

I've read this book twice.

They lived in fear of the airlock. Cardinal Sin #1 was being impolite,
which netted you death. The society's outward "safety" for women and
children was due to:

1) Men having an extremely dominant position. Women were rare, so men
   fought over them. Women were not "worshiped" -- they were *objects* of
   value and treated as such.

2) Strict order due to terror-tactics vigilante "justice." The
   trains may run on time, but this does not mean the society is utopian.

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk          

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 22:25:38 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>E.g.: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, where the idea is to "free" the
>lunar colonies by setting up a dictatorship of 3, then completely fixing
>the "elections" so these people could get who they wanted into office.
>Also, the general theme of harmonious social living touted throughout the
>book is this: "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
>breath that they have -- and chuck them out the nearest airlock.  Let them
>breathe vacuum."

Don't assume that Heinlein considered this a utopia!  The first part of THE
CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS is set in the future of THE MOON IS A HARSH
MISTRESS; Heinlein makes it fairly clear that the society resulting from
MISTRESS is in fact a dystopia.  (THE ROLLING STONES also seems to be set
in this "universe"; and the scenes on the Moon do appear to be at an
intermediate stage between the end of MISTRESS and the beginning of CAT.)

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 02:41:24 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ccmj@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Claire Jones) writes:
>>>ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>Give concrete examples to support your idea that Heinlein's philosophy is
>>"Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad breath that they
>>have -- and chuch them out the nearest airlock.  Let them breathe
>>vacuum."  I, for one, didn't arive at such idea.
>
>That is certainly what DOES happen on Luna in the book, and I don't think
>there were any plans to change this after the revolution (after all, the
>fuss and nonsense generated by courts would be rather anti the spirit of
>the revolution).

THANK you. Finally someone who read the text without getting conned by all
of the rhetoric present designed to make you think that the society
portrayed is other than it is. Heinlein does a really good snow-job on the
reader by continually *telling* you how liberal the society is, but then
*portraying* a reactionary conservative one.

This *is* what happened in the book. Don't let your fannish emotions cloud
your reason.

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk          

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 07:27:43 GMT
From: yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

BREEBAAR@hlerul5.BITNET (Leo Breebaart) writes:
>And as another aside - this is also the reason that incest and group
>weddings such as he favours are unpractical in real life: real people are
>not Heinlein heroes!

I don't think that you can say that group marriages will fail because real
people aren't Heinlein heroes.  I think the people portrayed in Manny's
line marriage in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are very much real people
(maybe excepting Manny and Wyoh, our heroes).  But Grandpa would be upset
about this if he knew, and can't tell co-husband name-forgotten that his
religion is bunk, and all the kinds of family secrets and conniving that
goes on in real life.  But they love each other, despite their faults, and
try to work it out.

Group living isn't something that only Heinlein Heroes can do.  Sometimes
it's hard, yes, because there's more opinions to take into account than
just one or two.  But it can frequently give you a better result after
everyone's put their arguments forth and worked on whatever the problem is.
And it sure is nice to come home to a big house full of activity rather
than an empty apartment.

I thank Heinlein for this idea; it might not have occurred to me if I
hadn't heard of it in TMiaHM (and all his other novels which espouse this
idea).  It certainly helped shape my life.

Judy Anderson
(415)329-8400
edsel!yduJ@labrea.stanford.edu
...!sun!edsel!yduJ

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 12:38:38 GMT
From: flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Pro RAH flame

dolata@uazchem.UUCP (Dolata) writes:
>  My comments;
>
>Well written?  Not hardly, unless you are 15 years old and titillated by
>immature sexual fantasies.

You can bash Heinlein's politics and sex all you like, but you criticize
his writing at your peril.  Give me a single example of a single sentence
you could improve (other that by deleting it; it may be that entire
paragraphs, chapters, books, and decades would be better edited out; but
the sentences themselves are carefully and well written.)

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 10 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:

		Miscellaneous - Literary Quality (9 msgs) &
                                Off Centaur (2 msgs) & SCA Network

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 15:33:03 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Ideas, People, and SF:  A Manifesto

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Vonnegut does not deny fiercely that he is an SF writer. Read his semi-
>autobiographical _Wampeters, Foma, and Granfalloons_. He deals, in this
>book, specifically with this question.

As it happens...

I reread the book just last week, and suggest you do the same.

Vonnegut does, indeed, defend SF (mostly in the section labelled, cleverly,
"Science Fiction," and do most of the other things you say.  However, he
concludes the essay by deciding that what SF is, more than anything else,
is a club or lodge, and that he is *not* a member of that club or lodge.

He does not deny that he occasionally writes SF; he denies that he is an SF
writer.

And -- for what it's worth -- in Vonnegut's other, more recent, non-fiction
book, PALM SUNDAY, he describes Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END as "one of the
very few genuine masterpieces of science fiction.  The others, of course,
were all written by myself."  In context, this is nowhere near as arrogant
as it sounds here.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 88 20:48:32 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ideas, People, and SF:  A Manifesto

>>Vonnegut does not deny fiercely that he is an SF writer. Read his semi-
>>autobiographical _Wampeters, Foma, and Granfalloons_. He deals, in this
>>book, specifically with this question.

>However, he concludes the essay by deciding that what SF is, more than
>anything else, is a club or lodge, and that he is *not* a member of that
>club or lodge.

>He does not deny that he occasionally writes SF; he denies that he is an
>SF writer.

Which brings up an interesting side-thought. What defines an SF writer?

I can think of two ways an author can define themselves as being an SF
writer offhand:

   Join the Science Fiction Writers of America. Seems pretty clear-cut to
   me.  For the record, Vonnegut isn't a member, at least according to my
   directory (being in the SFWA has its advantages at times...)

   Have your books marked as being in the genre. This one may not always be
   in the authors hands, of course (see my recent comments about Mike
   Resnick's "Adventures"). But if the book says it's Science Fiction, it's
   SF. I just checked -- of the fifteen or so Vonnegut books in my
   collection, all of them are shown as mainstream books, not genre books.

It seems to me that the burden of evidence shows that he's not an SF
writer.  A lot of his stuff is barely, marginally SF -- Galapagos, for
instance, while he uses a futuristic setting (sort of) and some science
fictional settings (and a dash of fantasy just to keep you honest) is a
moral tract, not an SF book. Using the trappings of SF does not an SF
writer make.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 13:50:31 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Ideas, People, and SF:  A Manifesto

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Vonnegut does not deny fiercely that he is an SF writer. 

In point of fact, Vonnegut did deny that he wrote sf in the early-mid 70's.

He has since rethought this, and retracted it, saying he was reacting to a
labeling/pidgeonholing syndrome.

My sources are two: A radio interview (by Larry Josephson in 1973) called
'Trout Fishing in America' with his denial, and a recently produced
(excellent) episode of the A&E cable series, Biography, in which he
explained the earlier statements.

Jim Freund
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 18:20:46 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>A lot of hard SF fans tend to defend the poor literary quality of these
>works with the argument that, "Well, you know, hard SF isn't *supposed* to
>have any literary quality."
>
>To me, this is no excuse. *Every* author should try to invest his work
>with quality. This is no longer the 1940's when SF was so so new that
>anything at all written was sure to be published. Perhaps hard SF has
>stagnated (it is my *opinion* that this is so), and a major reason it
>*stays* stagnated is the very fact that those who read it don't demand any
>improvement from it!!

(Anybody got a match?)

I tend to agree in principal, but why is it that all the Lit'ry types seem
to think that Literary Quality means bad science, if any?  Why are
technophobia and pessimism requirements for Literary Quality?  Why does
every character in a book of Literary Quality have to be such an
unmitigated bastard?  Why are most books alleged to contain Literary
Quality virtually plotless steam of consciousness drug trips?  Is it
because the people in the Lit'ry clique are a bunch of suicidally depressed
drug crazed technophobic sociopaths?

1/2  :-)

True, everything I've said is a gross over-generalization, but so's your
opinion of Real Science Fiction.  Still, it's a pretty clear trend.  Can
you name me a book that is optimistic, non-technophobic, with a plot and a
likeable, decent protagonist, and yet still has this ill-defined thing
called Literary Quality?  If so, I'd certainly be glad to give it a shot.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 06:41:34 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
...[stuff omitted]
>I tend to agree in principal, but why is it that all the Lit'ry types seem
>to think that Literary Quality means bad science, if any?  Why are
>technophobia and pessimism requirements for Literary Quality?  Why does
>every character in a book of Literary Quality have to be such an
>unmitigated bastard?  Why are most books alleged to contain Literary
>Quality virtually plotless steam of consciousness drug trips?  Is it
>because the people in the Lit'ry clique are a bunch of suicidally
>depressed drug crazed technophobic sociopaths?

I'm glad that you at least admit this is a gross over-generalization, but
I'd be interested in what fiction you've read that gives you this
impression.  Maybe you've had some bad experiences with "Lit'ry" types, but
I don't think that of the non-sf books of Literary Quality (as I understand
it) I've read lately, any of them qualify particularly well as
technophobic, pessimistic, stream of consciousness drug trips starring
bastards.  I guess if you think of contemporary fiction as well represented
by Bret Ellis, Jay MacInerny, and Tama Janowitz, I can see your point.  But
I don't think that most people who like to talk about literary quality
(mind if I drop the caps?) think of them as representative.  I can't shake
the feeling from reading your message that you're swiping at straw men, but
then I do realize that you're reacting to something.

>True, everything I've said is a gross over-generalization, but so's your
>opinion of Real Science Fiction.  Still, it's a pretty clear trend.  Can
>you name me a book that is optimistic, non-technophobic, with a plot and a
>likeable, decent protagonist, and yet still has this ill-defined thing
>called Literary Quality?  If so, I'd certainly be glad to give it a shot.

A little unfair of you to use "you" above - the part of the posting to
which you replied which you included didn't have much to say about all
this.  I assume you mean non-sf contemporary fiction above.  I'm sure
you'll get replies from people who've read more contemporary novels than I
have.  I don't think, from my experience, that it's true in short fiction.
As for novels - well, what I've read most recently is Three Farmers on
Their Way to a Dance, by Richard Powers.  It's not any of those things,
unless you want to count it as technophobic, which might be true, but I
think in a different sense than you meant (it's somewhat nostalgic in
tone).  In any case, what I object to in your posting, which may or may not
have been intended, is the implication that any of these things are
necessary, even in some small way, for a book to be accepted as being of
literary quality.  While it's true that people's averaged impressions of a
book's quality will be somewhat skewed from the average over, say, the last
500 years, (i.e. tastes change), I don't think that a huge number of books
are getting panned just because of this.  Only a few.  In any case, I don't
think that the original description of SF had this implication.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 05:18:43 GMT
From: soren@reed.uucp (My Evil Twin)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>I tend to agree in principal, but why is it that all the Lit'ry types seem
>to think that Literary Quality means bad science, if any?  Why are
>technophobia and pessimism requirements for Literary Quality?  Why does
>every character in a book of Literary Quality have to be such an
>unmitigated bastard?  Why are most books alleged to contain Literary
>Quality virtually plotless steam of consciousness drug trips?

This sounds like a better description of New Wave science fiction from the
late sixties -- *Barefoot in the Head*, *The Atrocity Exhibition*, the
Jerry Cornelius novels, short stories from QUARK, ORBIT, or NEW WORLDS --
than "'mainstream' 'literary'" (is that enough quotes?)  writing.  Who
specifically are you thinking of when you make that statement?  William
Burroughs and Pynchon sort of meet your description.  I really can't think
of anyone else, though.  When I think about mainstream lit-crit fiction I
tend to think more of NEW YORKER-stories-about-going-to-Conneticut-to-meet-
your-ex-husband (as I heard the genre so charmingly characterized).

>True, everything I've said is a gross over-generalization, but so's your
>opinion of Real Science Fiction.  Still, it's a pretty clear trend.  Can
>you name me a book that is optimistic, non-technophobic, with a plot and a
>likeable, decent protagonist, and yet still has this ill-defined thing
>called Literary Quality?  If so, I'd certainly be glad to give it a shot.

Have you read Umberto Eco's *The Name of the Rose*?  It has a "likeably,
decent protagonist"; it may or may not be optimistic (Darn if I can tell,
it isn't something I particularly look for), and the whole concept of
technophobia kind of gets thrown out the window since it's set in the
Middle ages.  It's also gotten fantastic reviews from all (or anyway, most)
of the Right People.

Also, you might check out Italo Calvino's *Cosmicomics* -- Just-So stories
for the post industrial age.  

Soren Petersen
tektronix!reed!sorenk

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 15:52:57 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>Can you name me a book that is optimistic, non-technophobic, with a plot
>and a likeable, decent protagonist, and yet still has this ill-defined
>thing called Literary Quality?  If so, I'd certainly be glad to give it a
>shot.

Well...

I'd start with Ben Bova.  Not "high literature," but a fine writer with a
clean, serviceable style and an excellent sense of character and the moral
implications of what he writes about.  For lack of broad knowledge, I'd
start you with the KINSMAN SAGA -- a two-in-one updating of the books
KINSMAN and MILLENIUM.

Brian Aldiss's HELLICONIA series is a good bet.

Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE -- though you may not *like* the
protagonist, he's certainly understandable.

Niven's RINGWORLD.  Unfortunately, nothing else, and especially not the
execrable RINGWORLD ENGINEERS.

Believe it or not, Gene Wolfe's THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN (consisting of THE
SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR, THE SHADOW OF THE
LICTOR, and THE CASTLE OF THE AUTARCH) fit your description above
("optimistic, non- technophobic, with a plot and a likeable, decent
protagonist") and possibly the highest degree of "literary quality" in
recent sf.  It's even scientifically plausible, with the usual exceptions
where the reader overlooks unlikely inventions such as an FTL drive for the
sake of a story.  It aint hard SF by the usual definition, but what the
hell...

dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 02:58:16 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Ideas, People, and SF:  A Manifesto

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>>Vonnegut does not deny fiercely that he is an SF writer. 
>It seems to me that the burden of evidence shows that he's not an SF
>writer.  A lot of his stuff is barely, marginally SF -- Galapagos, for
>instance, while he uses a futuristic setting (sort of) and some science
>fictional settings (and a dash of fantasy just to keep you honest) is a
>moral tract, not an SF book. Using the trappings of SF does not an SF
>writer make.

I didn't *say* he is an SF writer. I would certainly put him far and away
above most writers whose books are labeled "science fiction" on the spine.
All I was after was that he does not get all pissed off if someone calls
him an SF writer. Someone said he would if you did. He wouldn't. He does'nt
think of himself as one. In the sense that he doesn't (i.e. doesn't do
things like attend cons and write 1950's hard science fiction, etc.), I
don't either. But he don't get all huffy about it.... He's too nice a guy!

I *do* think of him as a *speculative* fiction writer, but mostly a writer
of social commentary.

Kevin Cherkauer
[ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk          

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 12:15:54 GMT
From: flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality FLAME

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>  Still, it's a pretty clear trend.  Can you name me a book that is
>optimistic, non-technophobic, with a plot and a likeable, decent
>protagonist, and yet still has this ill-defined thing called Literary
>Quality?  If so, I'd certainly be glad to give it a shot.

The Odyssey, Beowulf, Don Quixote, Malory's Morte D'Arthur, All the King's
Men, anything by Burns, Cyrano de Bergerac.

None technophilic, but no technophobes.

If you'll be a bit advanced about LQ and decency, try George MacDonald
Fraser and P.G. Wodehouse.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 19:45:41 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Filk, Off Centaur

Note: This is the first of 3 filk-related items.  While they all reference
Off Centaur (and I know the people who work there), I have no financial
connection with that company.  For this purpose I am only an interested
customer.

There have been alot of rumors noised about concerning the state of a major
filk production company--Off Centaur.  This note is an update on their
status.

The partnership--Off Centaur Publications--is defunct.  It has been
replaced with Off Centaur, Inc.  As Off Centaur, Inc. most of the same
people are in busines, taking and filling orders, and starting new
projects.

Orders and inquiries can be sent to:

   Off Centaur, Inc.
   P.O.Box 424
   El Cerrito, CA 94530

or by calling:

   415-528-3172

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 19:47:22 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: New Kelly Freas poster

As previously noted, Off Centaur, Inc. is starting new projects.  The
latest is a new Kelly Freas poster called "Owl Flight."  They are taking
advance orders for the posters.  For orders and further information, write
to:

  Off Centaur, Inc.
  P.O.Box 424
  El Cerrito, CA 94530

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 21:57:44 GMT
From: joshua@straits.rutgers.edu (Joshua Mittleman)
Subject: SCA network

To anyone not interested in the Society for Creative Anachronism, I
apologize for this posting.

ANNOUNCEMENT

Lord Danulf Donaldson, from Carolingia (Boston), has established an
automatic distribution mailing list for SCA communications.  Anyone
interested in joining this network should send mail to
SCA-REQUEST@ai.ai.mit.edu, and include:

1) SCA name
2) mundane name
3) electronic address (APRANET preferred)
4) geographical location (SCA & mundane)
5) brief summary of SCA interests
6) Do you want to be added to the mailing list?
7) Do you want your address to be released to the mailing list?
8) titles & offices

Yours in the Society,

Lord Arval Benicoeur

Josh Mittleman
joshua@paul.rutgers.edu
 

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 10 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Brust (5 msgs) & Chambers & Cherryh &
                       Dick & Eddings & Effinger & McIntyre &
                       Rice & Schmitz (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 15:09:17 GMT
From: jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

scottsc@microsoft.UUCP (Scott Schultz) writes:
>What I want to know is, when are we finally going to learn what happened
>at Shadowgate Falls? We've heard enough references to it, jeez!
>
>Or was it Deathgate Falls? Damn, my books are all in storage and I haven't
>read them for a couple of years. I guess it's time to dig them out and
>re-read 'em.

It was Deathgate Falls and that is what Brust's newest one, _Taltos_ is all
about.  It's a good one and (fortunately) leaves more things unanswered for
the next book.  

Jim Clausing
CIS Department			
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210	
jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 17:09:55 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

Now that I've gotten started on Stephen Brust, I have to ask a question
I've been wondering about. _Brokedown Palace_ was written as part of this
"Fairy Tales" series that I've been reading about on the net. Okay, so
there could be some question about whether it is really part and parcel of
the Dragearan universe described in the books about Vlad. With no reason to
assume otherwise, let's say that it is and pose the following question:

Who or What are the demons?

We've got two broad groups of people: Faeries (Dragaerans) and Humans
(Easterners). This is the first time we've ever heard about Demons, and the
point is very specifically made (to my mind, at least) that Demons are not
Dragaerans and they are certainly not Humans. Maybe the "gods" who created
the Dragaerans in the first place are still around?

And then there's Bork...

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 16:59:06 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
> I must admit, I had a great deal of trouble understanding the value of
> such gestures as barricades in the street when teleportation is so common
> and (seemingly) dirt cheap.

Most of the folks who we see teleporting in the series are either nobility
of some kind or full-time sorcerors. In _Brokedown Palace_ Our Hero (I've
forgotten his name already) spent two years in Dragaera working the fields
as a Tekla yet he obviously doesn't know how to teleport and he implies a
couple of times that it takes a great deal of practice and will-power to
wield The Power. I imagine that your average citizen, particularly a Tekla,
doesn't have the time or education to learn the finer nuances of sorcery.
Also, the action in the story takes place in a section of town that is
mainly an Easterner/Tekla slum. It's pretty obvious that Vlad is not your
typical Easterner. I imagine that very few of them use the link to the
Imperial Orb for anything other than checking the time of day.

What I want to know is, when are we finally going to learn what happened at
Shadowgate Falls? We've heard enough references to it, jeez!

Or was it Deathgate Falls? Damn, my books are all in storage and I haven't
read them for a couple of years. I guess it's time to dig them out and
re-read 'em.

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 22:19:48 GMT
From: leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

scottsc@microsoft.UUCP (Scott Schultz) writes:
>Who or What are the demons?

   Demons?  Plural?  Where?  The only demon I remember is the Demon
Goddess, Verra.  And she's the patron of Easterners.  She's called the
Demon Goddess for who-only-knows what reason, and she dies in the story.
Explain who the other Demons are...

>And then there's Bork...

Actually, there's Bolk.  With a weird mark somewhere in there.  The taltos.
He's evidently another patron of the family.  He has many incarnations
(maybe seventeen??? :-)) and has been a horse, a bull, a staff, and other
things.  When _Taltos_ came by, I thought for a moment that either the
taltos was another creature and Easterners were combined with them, or that
Vlad was another incarnation of it.  Both were very wrong.  Any ideas what
it is, outside of a patron?

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 11:09:58 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Unicorn)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Leonard Abbot) writes:
>Actually, there's Bolk.  With a weird mark somewhere in there.  The
>taltos.  He's evidently another patron of the family.  He has many
>incarnations (maybe seventeen??? :-)) and has been a horse, a bull, a
>staff, and other things.  When _Taltos_ came by, I thought for a moment
>that either the taltos was another creature and Easterners were combined
>with them, or that Vlad was another incarnation of it.  Both were very
>wrong.  Any ideas what it is, outside of a patron?

  The taltos horse, Bolk, was a creature of magic, who's significance I
can't really fathom since Brust was so vague about it. (I suppose it was
all those Miklos: "What do you mean, Bolk?" Bolk: "Never mind master."
Miklos: "Alright Bolk.") Actually, he wasn't a patron of the family, but
belonged to whoever needed him at the time, and was in fact an incarnation
of a type of magic akin to witchcraft or some other magic beyond the realm
of the land of Faerie. In fact, there was a lot of emphasis put on the fact
that his power was not part of Faerie.
  As far as I can tell, however, Bolk's presence was one of need, and that
at times he was at odds with the power of Faery or working with it,
whatever suited the need at the time (as in the story about Fenar and the
Faerie King).  I get the impression, however, that in a subtle way, his
power and Faerie's are in a continuous struggle for dominance. It's just a
matter of when the time is right to fight outwardly or not. Anyone have any
thoughts on this?
  I suppose that Vlad's last name, Taltos, is from the legend about Fenar,
if indeed _Brokedown Palace_ is a valid part of the series, which I believe
it is.  It makes sense, since he is Fenarian after all, and in that type of
world, people would take their names from such things.

Erik Gorka
Reed College
Box 233            
Portland OR  97202 
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 20:05:52 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@mtune.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: King in Yellow

The King in Yellow was written by Robert W. Chambers and is a collection of
short stories about a book called The King in Yellow (surprise!).  It is
apparently a play that has the same effect upon its readers as the
Necronomicon.  I have only read the first story called The Yellow Sign.
The connection to Lovecraft is that H.P. got some of the names of his
nasties from this story and maybe some of the later ones.  The King in
Yellow is still available from Dover books.  I hope this answered your
questions.

Nick Sauer
ihnp4!homxc!11366ns

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 16:25:25 GMT
From: rickc@agora.uucp (Rick Coates)
Subject: Cherryh's stars

Speaking of C. J. Cherryh's Compact Space/Union-Alliance stories:

How about the stars?  Ms. Cherry must have used real stars for the maps in
the Chanur stories - what are they?

I apologize if this has been beat to death recently; could someone please
send me the Answer if it's been solved?

Rick Coates
tektronix!reed!percival!agora!rickc
tektronix!sequent!islabs!ateq!rick

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 18:58:50 GMT
From: COK@psuvma.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Stars in My Pocket - Delaney

CERMNMS@technion.BITNET (Michael Silverstein) says:
>Now, it is one of the joys of my life to convince people to read Dahlgren,
>and after [_Dhalgren_, _Delany_] all that effort and time, to have them
>come and ask, "Well, what does it mean?"
>
>Well, OK, I could handle the Dahlgren
>experience.
>
>But....
>
>Having just read Stars in My Pocket...  I am left with the questions Why?
>Where? How? and a large dose of What?  Is the Epilogue supposed to explain
>what is going on? Is this supposed to leave you hanging and waiting for a
>second part (allegedly supposed to be out in 1985)?
>
>Hey, I mean, what is this all about?
>
>I thank you for any enlightenment in advance.

Well, I've always been of the opinion that _Stars in My Pocket_ is the
Samuel R. Delany equivalent of a light novel.  Since Delany simply is
incapable of writing anything without it being incredible, it nevertheless
contains a good deal of depth.  I took the novel more as an extension of
the sociological experiment which is a thread through the greater portion
of Delany's corpus, Delany's continual examination of the human species'
transformation and evolution into a greater form.

The novel is incredibly detailed, incredibly written, incredibly
structured.  It is excellent on practically any artistic plane on which it
can be examined, save that of capital-S Significance.

The actual core of the book, the actual plot, is rather thin, and does not
fully examine the themes it could have, those of the further development of
the culture.

However, it's absurd of me to judge it as a whole from seeing the half.
I'll reserve full judgment until the second half of the dyptich is
released.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu
UUCP:. . .rutgers!psuvax1!psuvma.BITNET!cok         

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 16:29:44 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: help on Philip K. Dick

   I just read Philip K.  Dick's _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ and
I hope someone can help me out it.

   What is the significance of Mercerism and why does Rick Deckard identify
himself as Mercer at the end? Does Mercer stand for the concept of human
empathy in the book? What is the significance of climbing up the hill and
getting hit by the rock? Did I miss understanding a major part of the book?

   Also, if you're a Philip K.  Dick enthusiast, can you recommend for me
any studies on Dick's works? Are there any books about Dick or collections
of essays on his works?

   Any help would be greatly appreciated! (I'll send you nice thank you
notes too!)

   P.S.  It seems like Dick really likes stories about Policemen who always
get dicked over (no pun)... from reading this and _Flow My Tears_.

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP:  {rutgers, att, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet:   vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet:       swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 1 May 88 19:06:10 GMT
From: april@eleazar.uucp
Subject: Re: Malloreon

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Schuyler) writes:
>And any guesses to who will be the Child of Dark at the end?  The obvious
>choices seem to be the Grolim Heirarch at Rak Urga (what's his name
>anyway?) and Harakan's boss.

Wait a minute, I thought that Zandramas was the Child of Dark.  When
Cyradis appears to the company at the end of _Guardians of the West_, she
says: "Zandramas, the Child of Dark, hath reft away thy son... Should
Zandramas reach the Dark Stone with the babe, the Dark shall triumph, and
its triumph shall be eternal."

This sounds to me like Zandramas is the final Child of Dark, although
Belgarion is not the last Child of Light.

April J. Weisman
HB 390 Dartmouth Clg
Hanover NH, 03755    
603-643-7727        
april@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
{decvax ihnp4 harvard}!dartvax!eleazar!april

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 07:30:29 GMT
From: donn@utah-gr.uucp (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: New Fantasy Writers (and Effinger)

Sounds like these guys haven't read any Effinger before:

Wayne A. Throop (throopw@xyzzy.UUCP) writes:
>...  The protagonist was a total wimp, uninteresting as a hero, and
>without any interesting features to make him interesting as an anti-hero.
>He just sort of drifts along with the plot.  ...

This is the classic Effinger protagonist, and he appears in most of
Effinger's works.  To rub it in, Effinger often uses the same name from
story to story.  This character is the prototypical lazy incompetent human
being; life happens to him, he never controls it.  It's an incredible joke
that Effinger wrote a novel in the mystery genre with a character like this
playing the stereotypical 'competent man' figure.

Who is this 'competent man', anyway?  Most of the people I meet are more
like Effinger's klutz; I certainly can't deny that I fit the description
more than a little bit.  In novels like THE WOLVES OF MEMORY, this
character is called on to represent Everyman in comedy of grimmest,
blackest shade, about the randomness of fate and the injustice of destiny.
WHEN GRAVITY FAILS has a similar purpose but doesn't call on the impersonal
forces of the universe to make its point -- the protagonist is screwed by
other people (and by himself).  In both novels the irresponsibility of the
protagonist results in his being manipulated by larger forces for ends that
are beyond his comprehension.  Eventually he finds that he has given up his
freedom and has received nothing of value in return.

I thought THE WOLVES OF MEMORY had more impact, but WHEN GRAVITY FAILS was
more fun...

I liked both books,

Donn Seeley
University of Utah
CS Dept
(801) 581-5668
donn@cs.utah.edu
utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 07:29:25 GMT
From: jnp@daimi.uucp (J|rgen N|rgaard)
Subject: Help on "Vonda N. McIntyre" (science fiction), please

Hello everyone,

After having read (well actually reading) Vonda N. McIntyre's "Dreamsnake"
from 1978 I would like to know if she has published anything else.

As far as I know this is only book available in Denmark, but as I like
"Dreamsnake" a lot I am very interested in knowing of other works.

Please mail me any hints or what ever.

Regards
J|rgen N|rgaard
jnp@daimi.dk

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 15:33:33 GMT
From: nnpeterson@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Neil N. Peterson)
Subject: VAMPIRES - Ann Rice

These books aren't EXACTLY sf but darned if I know what to call them, and
since I read this group regularly I'll post here.

I just finished _Interview_With_A_Vampire_ and _The_Vampire_Lestat_ and
now, I NEED TO READ THE THIRD BOOK , NOW!!!!!  Does anyone know when it is
due to be released or when it was released.  It had not appeared here as of
last night.

Thanks in advance.

Neil N. Peterson
nnpeterson@cgl.waterloo.edu
CSNET:  nnpeterson%watcgl@waterloo.CSNET
ARPA: nnpeterson%watcgl%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA
BITNET: nnpeterson%watcgl%waterloo@csnet-relay.ARPA
OTHER: nnpeterson@cgl.waterloo.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 88 12:28:28 GMT
From: codas!pdn!jc3b21!larry@moss.att.com (Lawrence F. Strickland)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz Enquiry

Now that someone mentioned it, I've always liked to re-read _The Wiches of
Karres_ from time to time.  However, I've always wondered if a sequel or
sequels were ever written.

It's always seemed to me as though he set things up at the end for an
entire series of books, but I've never seen anything in print.  Also, as
above, it would be a real shame if he were dead...

Lawrence F. Strickland        
St. Petersburg Junior College 
P.O. Box 13489                  
St. Petersburg, FL 33733        
+1 813 341 4705
...gatech!codas!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry 
...gatech!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry 

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 88 19:38:14 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Government in James Schmitz's Hub universe

eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond):
>I agree with a previous poster's suggestion that the Hub is the far future
>of the world of _Agents_Of_Vega_....I'm less sure if
>_The_Witches_Of_Karres_ fits this timeline. If so, it's probably set
>closer in time/space to _Agents_Of_Vega_

I'm pretty sure we're looking at three different timelines here, judging by
the status of Earth in each case.  In "Agent of Vega" (not "Agents") Earth
is a political backwater which is still of great ideological significance.
It has a place in galactic politics.  Enough millenia have passed that many
branches of humanity have mutated very far indeed from our own.
Intergalactic travel is possible, though it takes a long time.

In "The Witches of Karres" Earth ("Yarth") has virtually passed into
legend.  On the other hand, humanity appears to be essentially unmutated.
Interstellar travel is relatively slow, with travel from one end of the
Empire to the other being normally requiring months.

The Hub is between the two in technological sophistication, features an
unmutated humanity (not counting artificial mutations) and contains no
mention of Earth.  On the other hand, its society is least changed from
ours.

One can tell stories to link the three, but it seems simpler to assume that
they are unrelated.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 13 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 160

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 16:42:45 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>I think you have missed the point.  The fact that Heinlein portrayed this
>>rather arbitrary system of justice in such a positive light is, I
>>believe, what the original poster was complaining about.  This tends to
>>support the view that Heinlein _advocates_ such a system.

>No it doesn't. It just means Heinlein happened to think he could write an
>interesting story with that viewpoint.

Well, he didn't just think he could write an interesting story with that
viewpoint, he actually wrote it.  That has to count for something.  One
can, moreover, advocate a view one does not believe in.  Note that we are
leaving aside the question of whether the book actually does promote the
view in question, because Chuq is saying that even if it does...

>The work is not the author. The author is not the work. And making
>generalizations from one to the other is very hazardous.

This is a standard Heinlein defense, revived whenever this discussion comes
up, as it does every year or so.  It is therefore worth dealing with it
explicitly.

First, it is true that we do not discover what an author really believes by
reading their fiction.  This does not mean that the fiction is no evidence,
given careful interpretation, but it may not be very reliable evidence.
With some authors is is fairly reliable, with others totally misleading.
Moreover, we need independent evidence about the author in order to have
any chance of telling which case obtains.  But we never know for sure what
someone truely believes in any case.

So suppose we accept this point.  Can we then say nothing about *Heinlein*
when discussing his writings?  Well, we can't "Heinlein believes
vigilantism is fine in service of certain goals", because that's what we've
agreed we don't really know.  But we can still still say "Heinlein wrote
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  And -- as far as this point is concerned --
we can say "TMiaHM presents vigilantism in a favorable light" or even
"Heinlein writes vigilantist propaganda".

This is not to say the latter two statements are correct.  Perhaps they are
a misunderstanding of the book or have other flaws.  But they cannot be
refuted merely by reciting "the book is not the author".

Some people do say thinks like "Heinlein claims" when all they really know
is that some character of his does so.  But in many other cases where a
comment is answered as if it were about what Heinlein really believes, the
comment can and should be read as a comment about the books.  That Heinlein
gets mentioned in these comments is not surprising: he is after all the
author.

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) says:
>Just because *Mannie* says Free Luna is great is little or no indication
>that Heinlein thinks it is.

True, but if Heinlein writes vigilantist propaganda it may not count all
that much in his favor that he doesn't really believe in it.

>In fact, there are many suggestive scenes, it seemed to me, Heinlein was
>poking fun at Mannie's naivete.

This seems to me much more to the point.

barry@eos.UUCP (Kenn Barry) says:
>More to the point, are you psychic enough to know when he's arguing for
>qthings he believes in, and when he's playing devil's advocate? 

While this is less so.

Because the author is not the book, we can discuss the book without knowing
what the author is really trying to do.

Jeff Dalton
AI Applications Institute,        
Edinburgh University.             
JANET: J.Dalton@uk.ac.ed             
ARPA:  J.Dalton%uk.ac.ed@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
UUCP:  ...!ukc!ed.ac.uk!J.Dalton

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 12:56:03 GMT
From: flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..  's Politics

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>>I think you have missed the point.  The fact that Heinlein portrayed
>>>this rather arbitrary system of justice in such a positive light is, I
>>>believe, what the original poster was complaining about.  This tends to
>>>support the view that Heinlein _advocates_ such a system.
>
>>No it doesn't. It just means Heinlein happened to think he could write an
>>interesting story with that viewpoint.
>
>Well, he didn't just think he could write an interesting story with that
>viewpoint, he actually wrote it.  That has to count for something.  One

Hey, a calm reasonable point!  That's cheating in the Heinlein flame wars.
But I think that the more you read Heinlein, the less you'll deduce from
this.  It seems to me his main motiviation is getting you to think about
the politics he's describing.  _Not_ necessarily to adopt it.  The classic
example (due to Panshin, I think) is _Space Cadet_ vs. _Between Planets_.
By your argument, he'd be both for and against the system there.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 23:08:54 GMT
From: brucec@orca.tek.com (Bruce Cohen)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein.. (what writers believe)

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>The work is not the author. The author is not the work. And making
>generalizations from one to the other is very hazardous.

Two classic cases of pissing off a writer by assuming that his characters'
opinions are his as well, are the short stories "The World Well Lost" by
Theodore Sturgeon, and "Eutopia" by Poul Anderson.  In both stories the
main character is homosexual.  After the publication of both stories, the
authors were publically declared to be closet homosexuals.  Sturgeon got
the worse deal, since his story was published in the early '50s, when
homosexuals weren't even supposed to exist.

And of course, it's common knowledge that James Tiptree worked for the CIA.
(:-)>

Bruce Cohen
Tektronix Inc.
M/S 61-028
P.O. Box 1000
Wilsonville, OR  97070
{the real world}...!tektronix!ruby!brucec
brucec@ruby.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 06:26:12 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

   I see the Heinlein bashers are still at it; one of 'em, anyway.
   Manny is a foil. One of RAH's weaknesses as a writer is that he draws
from a limited cast of types. Manny is RAH's standard sort of Young
Competent Man. He is smart, able, and a doer, but lacks the depth of
insight that comes with age. RAH's real mouthpiece in the novel is the
Prof, Bernardo de la Paz (though if you count on everything the Prof says
reflecting RAH's real attitudes, you're still showing your naivete). One
specific function Manny serves in the book is a point RAH makes in many
books, this one included: the parochialism of cultures, the nearly-
universal human trait of thinking that the ways of Our Wonderful Society
are just the best thing ever invented. Consistently, throughout the book,
Manny is presented as an intelligent and pragmatic but NAIVE member of a
good but not PERFECT culture. He is much more a cipher than even the
typical Heinlein character. All he really does in the book is narrate it:
report the progress of the revolution, show the reader what typical Loonie
attitudes are like, and listen respectfully to the Prof's lectures.
   As for throwing people out the airlock: RAH has certainly made clear in
many books the high value he puts on good manners, but do you have to take
everything so bloody *literal*? Haven't you ever wished, in passing, that
some bozo who cut you off in traffic would get hung up by the heels? I
have. Doesn't mean I'd really want to live in a society where such things
happened, but writers of fiction get to cater to these impulses
vicariously. If I wrote books, I'm sure I'd put something similar in at
least one of 'em. I might have ideology-mongers castrated, for instance
:-). Now, maybe RAH really would prefer such Draconian punishments for
rudeness, I wouldn't know, but I would hardly conclude such an extreme
thing from his having a little vicarious revenge on boors in his novels.

>The dictatorship they set up is an example of fascism *in the book*.  The
>fixed "elections" are a far right-wing fascist tactic that the
>protagonists use *in the book*.

   *Sigh*. The Loonie revolution is very consciously, and very obviously
modeled on that great Fascist takeover, the American Revolution. The
railroading of their Constitutional Convention is quite like the
Constitutional Convention we had here, where the Founding Fathers worked
out a system they could agree on, in secret, and then bulldozed the
colonies into accepting, using careful mixtures of truth and propaganda. If
you allow for the fact that Luna was in the midst of a violent revolution,
that there was a probability of no more than 7 year's survival for Luna if
the revolution failed, and that the chicanery was to get a new government
set up, and not build into it as a permanent feature, it doesn't look much
different from the story of many real democracies, ours included.

>A military takeover is a classic extremist tactic used by many radical
>groups throughout history -- many times far-right radical groups -- and is
>the method used *in the book*.

   A military takeover? Well, I guess any violent revolution is a military
takeover, assuming you define something as ad hoc as a revolution as a
"military". Was the American Revolution a military takeover? As for
"radical", isn't that obvious? Violent revolutionaries are radicals by
definition.

>it just never seems to convince Heinlein fans that, though he may write
>well, his political philosophies are almost always on the far, far right
>wing.

   His politics are obviously along libertarian lines. Aint my brand of
ideology, but I don't let that cripple my reading abilities.  Kevin seems
to think no one but he can discern the obvious. Yes, Kevin, the book is
indeed a polemic. It reads smoother and moves better than the other novels
RAH wrote at around the same time, but it's very political and has a high
propaganda content. But it's *fiction*, for heaven's sake! You can't take
every word every character says in the book and assume it's the author's
exact sentiments. The Prof is a "rational anarchist" (basically
libertarian); Stuart is a royalist; Wyoming is, at least at first,
semi-Marxist; and Mannie is apolitical.  Taking every word they say as the
Gospel According to Heinlein is the reaction of a person whose personal
buttons have been pushed, someone who is reacting reflexively. I don't
share the common weakness for believing reading RAH's novels equals reading
his mind, but I *am* sure that he loves to push those buttons. I'm sure
he'd find your analysis quite predictable, and quite humorous; I know I do.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
{most major sites}!ames!eos!barry
barry@eos

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 08:07:11 GMT
From: c60a-4bq@web6e.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>c60a-4bq@web2h.berkeley.edu.UUCP () writes:
>>      It would be helpful if you are more specific in your argument,
>>instead of declaring your view of the novel and assume the people will
>>believe.  Give concrete examples to support your idea that Heinlein's
>>philosophy is "Take anyone you don't like -- even if all it is is bad
>>breath that they have -- and chuch them out the nearest airlock.  Let
>>them breathe vacuum."  I, for one, didn't arive at such idea.
>
>What, do you want page numbers? I wasn't clear enough in paraphrasing what
>Manuel kept saying throughout the entire book? The bad breath was an
>example he used in the book (said something like, "Often I feel like
>throwing assholes who have bad breath in elevators out the nearest
>airlock."). There are many other examples of this vigilante "justice" *in
>practice* in the book. "Breathe vacuum" was a catch-phrase used many, many
>times in the book to describe throwing people out of airlocks.

   NO, not page numbers.  But you've stated what you believe Heinlein's
philosophy to be, without any mention of how you arrived at such idea.  How
can I argue when you do not give me a point of reference to start from.

    As to the above quote, "Often I feel like throwing assholes who have
bad breath in elevators out of the nearest airlock," The difference is a
thought and an action.  Everyone has malign thoughts.  The difference is
control. Control of one's emotions.  Often I feel like thrashing a person,
for reasons I will not go into.  But, Usually I will refrain from doing.
Thought - Action.  Hope you see the difference.

    Also, Imagine yourself in a cave with several people.  They are not too
upright in brushing their teeth.  With their bad cases of halitosis,
breathing in and out, I would probably feel like killing them too.  The
point is that in a closed environment as Heinlein describes of Luna, it is
a show of respect for others to keep clean.  Respect for other people, to
Heinlein and I, is vital to any society.  Think of all the problems that
would solve.  Clean streets for one.  Crime free (I think Japan might be a
good example of this.)  All or most of our problems will be solved.  But,
as I've said before, these are IDEAL, not REAL.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 23:02:27 GMT
From: jwhitnel@csi.uucp (Jerry Whitnell)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

I do wish people would read the book they are commenting on.  The colonist
had an informal court system to prevent people from just being tossed out
the airlock.  One scene from the book describes just such a court (see page
124).

Jerry Whitnell
Communication Solutions, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 19:45:48 GMT
From: marko@nscpdc.nsc.com (Mark O'Shea)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

I know this will irritate some of you (of both sexes).  I have read a lot
of RAH's work but, not all of it.  I do not believe he is at all sexist,
but rather trying to depict what he thinks are TRULY liberated women.
Women who are comfortable with who they are. Women who realize that men are
what they are.  Women who can do anything a man can do and who are not out
to make men over in some ideal image the women have.

I have grown up with women who possess some or the other of the character
traits demonstrated by RAH's women.  In fact, I married one of them 26
years ago and am still married to her.  She is the most liberated woman I
know.  You won't see her in a demonstration or lecturing at a NOW
convention.  She works in a male dominated profession and is happy,
productive and successful.  She has the respect and admiration of her peers
and superiors both male and female.  Alas, I digress.

I admire these kind of women and when I found a writer who could portray
them I knew he was my kind of guy.  This is not a flame on those of you who
believe differently.  Just my point of view.

Those of you who believe differently are entitled to your opinion, just as
I am to mine.  I just would have a hard time getting a relationship going
with a women who proclaimed RAH a sexist pig.  In fact I have a hard time
carrying on a conversation with anyone who uses that hackneyed phrase any
more.

One last thought.  If we could get to know the women in RAH' life, I
suspect we would find many of the characteristics in them we find in his
fictional women.

Ps.  My copy of "Time Enough for Love" has a surrealistic portrait of two
people floating around a couple of orbs on the cover.  One of the people is
bald an the other has long hair.  Their body shapes would never give away
their gender.

Mark O'Shea

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 16:52:02 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: The Green Hills of Earth

nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU writes:
>    In his short story "The Green Hills of Earth", Heinlein included
>several excerpts from a poem by the same name.  Did Heinlein actually
>finish the poem, or did he just write the portions in the story?

If you piece the excerpts together, you'll find that the song is complete.

Aside from the myriad filk settings The_Green_Hills_of_Earth has inspired,
there is an album by a C&W group call Southwind who perform the song--
horribly.

Jim Freund
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 13 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Zelazny (16 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 13:17:59 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel Kamens) writes:
>>4) Amber - Traveling through Shadow is fascinating.  I don't think this
>>really presupposes anything about who you are - everybody we really know
>>in Amber is one of the royal family.
>
>I'd love to test my will against the Pattern. Don't know if I've got the
>guts to try the Logrus, though. Has it ever been specifically stated
>whether only the Royal families can master the Pattern/Logrus? That's the
>impression that's given, but have they ever let anyone else try?

I know I'll get myself into trouble here, stating what I believe is a fact
without the books here in front of me, but ...  It seems to me that every
time Corwin mentions the Pattern he puts in mention of the fact that trying
to walk the Pattern would absolutely DESTROY anyone without royal blood.
Which is one of the reasons he nearly swallows his tongue when (SPOILER on
the next line!)  Ganelon runs out onto the Pattern to retrieve that
oh-so-important square of paper.

BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the key
hanging right there?

And if anyone's got tickets to go be royal blood in Amber, please sign me
up.  I wouldn't even mind breaking my lease :-).

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 03:26:58 GMT
From: mok@pawl12.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Leonard Abbot) writes:
>dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
>	No, no, no.  The black area was a band from the center of the
>Pattern to the edge.  (analogous to the Black Road, you see) And yes, if
>ANYBODY -- even a Prince of Amber, Oberon, or Dworkin himself -- steps off
>the Pattern's lines, they are destroyed.  Which is why there was so much
>trouble with Oberon's restoring it with the Jewel.

    ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! NO! The black area was the spot where Merlin's blood
was spilled on the pattern. And it didn't touch the edge. If it touched the
edge Ganelon (Oberon) wouldn't have had to take a running jump. He'd have
just walked onto it. Also, the spot wasn't the sole cause of the road. This
merely weakened the pattern. It was Corwin's curse that enabled it to come
into existance.

>I wonder if Corwin has become a sort of Dworkin in his universe.  Where
>did Amber's Unicorn come from?  Is there another kind of creature
>typifying Corwin's Amber?  Did he mate with it?  Is there another noble
>house?

   He probably does have similar powers to Dworkin, but the specualation
about the unicorn is completely silly. The unicorn predated the pattern. It
was (if you recall) the unicorn that brought the Jewel of Judgement to
Dworkin in the first place. And it was the Jewel that was used to create
the pattern.
   About there being another royal house: If not then there will be. It is
worth noting that only Corwin and *his* descendants will be able to walk
the pattern that he created. At current time this only includes Merlin that
we know about.

Purest speculation:
   What would the existence of a second pattern cause? Near as I can figure
it's just adding an extra dimension. (like a cube laying on top of a
square), but only those people who have walked both patterns can take
advantage of this. BTW worth noting this would provide a back way into
Amber. Yes. Corwin could shadow walk into his room and out again without
trouble. Impressive, eh?

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 03:48:04 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel Kamens) writes:
> Has it ever been specifically stated whether only the Royal families can
> master the Pattern/Logrus? That's the impression that's given, but have
> they ever let anyone else try?

Yes it has, towards the beginning when Corwin sans memory and Random are
driving to Amber.

And Yes, a number of residents of Rebma had tried and didn't succeed.

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 16:05:22 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel Kamens) writes:
>4) Amber - Traveling through Shadow is fascinating.  I don't think this
>really presupposes anything about who you are - everybody we really know
>in Amber is one of the royal family.

  Glad to see I'm not the only one who loves Amber. Of course, the trick
is, as the books are written, we're *already* in the Amber universe. But
I'd love to test my will against the Pattern. Don't know if I've got the
guts to try the Logrus, though. Has it ever been specifically stated
whether only the Royal families can master the Pattern/Logrus? That's the
impression that's given, but have they ever let anyone else try?

Pete Granger
{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 21:11:01 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

Peter Granger recently pointed out that we're all *already* living in the
world(s) of Amber, which is quite true.

As for tackling the Pattern/Logrus, you'd be surprised...they're much more
informal about it than Zelazny implies. I'm studying for the trial right
now; hope to be ready by summer.

Walking through shadow isn't all that hard. You should try it!

Doug

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 05:08:53 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>I know I'll get myself into trouble here, stating what I believe is a fact
>without the books here in front of me, but ...  It seems to me that every
>time Corwin mentions the Pattern he puts in mention of the fact that
>trying to walk the Pattern would absolutely DESTROY anyone without royal
>blood.  Which is one of the reasons he nearly swallows his tongue when
>(SPOILER on the next line!)  Ganelon runs out onto the Pattern to retrieve
>that oh-so-important square of paper.

Well, I wouldn't say that - he doesn't particularly react (although maybe
there's some mention of it later in the chapter).  But the key factor is
that Ganelon runs in along the black area - he doesn't step on the actual
lines of the pattern.  It is sort of strange that the black area would
extend at that point in time almost all the way to the edge (Ganelon takes
a hop) - I mean, it was spreading, but it didn't seem it should have
reached that far.  Oh, also, the pattern is supposed, I think to destroy
even people with royal blood, if they stray from the pattern - so there
would be two reasons for Corwin to be surprised if Ganelon had actually
stepped on the pattern.  Anyway, it's a good thing the scene didn't happen
quite the way you described above - Corwin would have to be an idiot not to
do some investigating of Ganelon then.

>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the key
>hanging right there?

Maybe it's not to keep people out, but other things in.  Like that winged
animal that hung out at the primal pattern.

>And if anyone's got tickets to go be royal blood in Amber, please sign me
>up.  I wouldn't even mind breaking my lease :-).

It occurs to me that, along with the distinction people have been making
between living in a universe and being a character in a universe, that in
some way, we are living in the Amber universe.  Perhaps Ben Johnson is a
Prince of Amber. (wink) (I hate little smiley faces)

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 16:55:37 GMT
From: d7urbnn@hacke9.uucp (Urban Nilsson)
Subject: Re: Sign of Chaos

Anybody out there who knows when the next one in the Amber series is due? I
really would like to sink my literary teeth into it! After the last one, my
expectations runs very high!

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 18:42:04 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

mok@pawl12.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>    ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! NO! The black area was the spot where Merlin's
>blood was spilled on the pattern. And it didn't touch the edge. If it
>touched the edge Ganelon (Oberon) wouldn't have had to take a running
>jump. He'd have just walked onto it. Also, the spot wasn't the sole cause
>of the road. This merely weakened the pattern. It was Corwin's curse that
>enabled it to come into existance.

I hope you mean Martin, not Merlin.  In any case, I don't think it's real
clear in the books, but I'd guess it's more likely that spilling Martin's
blood was the real and sole cause of the black road, and that Corwin's
curse did something else, like maybe giving access to the invaders, or
weakening the pattern so the spot could spread.  Or whatever.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 18:51:47 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

mok@pawl12.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>    ARRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! NO! The black area was the spot where Merlin's
>blood was spilled on the pattern. And it didn't touch the edge. If it
>touched the edge Ganelon (Oberon) wouldn't have had to take a running
>jump. He'd have

Yes it does, contrary to what I originally wrote.  Zelazny: "A dark, rough-
edged smudge had obliterated an area of the section immediately beneath us,
running from its outer rum to the center."  Most likely, Ganelon's running
leap was Zelazny's colorful language.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 08:25:00 GMT
From: mok@pawl5.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel Kamens) writes:
>  Glad to see I'm not the only one who loves Amber. Of course, the trick
>is, as the books are written, we're *already* in the Amber universe. But
>I'd love to test my will against the Pattern. Don't know if I've got the
>guts to try the Logrus, though. Has it ever been specifically stated
>whether only the Royal families can master the Pattern/Logrus? That's the
>impression that's given, but have they ever let anyone else try?

   You *do* need to be of the blood of Dworkin to try the Pattern. They
have said that others have tried and been destroyed by it. I don't know
about the Logrus, but I don't see how it could be so restricted. The
pattern was actually made from Dworkin's blood, but there was no known
creation of the Logrus. It is *definetly not* made in the same way as the
pattern (and of course Corwin's Pattern) so it might be possible to try. I
know that it scares the shit out of me, but *I'd* try it in an instant.

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 17:43:25 GMT
From: mok@pawl2.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>Peter Granger recently pointed out that we're all *already* living in the
>world(s) of Amber, which is quite true.
>
>As for tackling the Pattern/Logrus, you'd be surprised...they're much more
>informal about it than Zelazny implies. I'm studying for the trial right
>now; hope to be ready by summer.

   Agreed. Unfortunately you DO have to be of the blood of Dworkin and
family in order to walk the pattern (unfortunately that's the way it works-
it's because he used his blood to draw it. I asked Random about it and he
assured me that he'd seen a few who weren't of the royal blood try to walk
the pattern.  He said that they DID die suddenly, but I don't know how
painful it was in the few brief moments that they had.)
   On the other hand, although they make a big deal about the Logrus being
only for the royal family of Chaos, this is merely because they want to
keep it for themselves. It is more tradition than anything else and they
don't guard it very well, but the Trial is... scarey.... (I don't have the
words... it was like nothing else I've every experienced. Don't EVER go
into it without being in good shape mentally and physically.) Although they
make a big deal about preparing for the Trial and have all these exercises,
they don't mean squat.  When you get there it's just you and an elemental
force beyond any ability of words to describe. The only true preparation is
a regualar workout and a sharp mind. And if you wonder about your ability
to do it, then DON'T do it. It requires utmost confidence. You cannot doubt
yourself for an instant.
   
>Walking through shadow isn't all that hard. You should try it!

   Yeah. It's incredible fun. The only problem is that you have to have
walked the pattern to have a serious degree of control. The Logrus Trial
helps, but I've still taken a few wrong turns. This can get *extreamly*
hairy (heh, half the fun of getting there wondering if I *am* going to get
there).

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 21:50:13 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the
>key hanging right there?

In (I think) Sign of Chaos, Merlin speculates that it might be to lock
something *in*, rather than keeping someone out.  Leaving the key in the
lock on those old fashion doors is a security hole.  (Slip paper under
door, stick something in key hole, key falls on paper, pull paper and key
under door.)

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 21:53:09 GMT
From: ronc@cerebus.uucp (Ronald O. Christian)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Leonard Abbot) writes:
>laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the
>>key hanging right there?
>   I think it's so Dworkin the Dwarf can't get in to mess things up.
>he's mad, after all.

Didn't Dworkin once assume the shape of Oberon, a taller man?

>Then again, it could be so that nobody enters the room by accident.

Could be.  *I'd* like to know the significance of the step that's
only loose when Gerard treads on it.

Ronald O. Christian
Fujitsu America Inc.
San Jose, Calif.
{amdahl, unisoft, uunet}!cerebus!ronc

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 17:18:31 GMT
From: taylor@swatsun.uucp (Brian Taylor)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

I think the loose step is another of Zelazny's details, much like the
birthday party that Conrad mentions attending in 'This Immortal.'
    
Brian Taylor
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
UUCP:   {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!taylor    
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!taylor@psuvax1.bitnet    
Internet: bpa!swatsun!taylor@rutgers.edu    

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 21:02:15 GMT
From: leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>[About Amber's Pattern]
>>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the
>>key hanging right there?
>
>Since we've seen that one can teleport to anyplace after walking the
>Pattern, it seems possible that someone (perhaps from the Keep or the
>Courts?) might be able to teleport to the Pattern.

   So what's keeping them from teleporting to somewhere else?  Corwin
teleported to the library from the Pattern in Amber.  Even after the Rebma
Pattern.  Things in the center of the Pattern can't be kept out by a *&%$
LOCKED DOOR!  And as for Chaotics, they could do a Logrus-summoning on the
key.  :-):-)

   Maybe the squeaky step only squeaks for Gerard because he's so big and
strong...  Or maybe it's a true instance of foreshadowing...

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 23:02:16 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Thomas Uffner)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

ronc@cerebus.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) writes:
>Didn't Dworkin once assume the shape of Oberon, a taller man?

Actually it was Corwin's shape but yes he was a shapechanger (along with
Oberon, Merlin, Dara, and probably Corwin)

>Could be.  *I'd* like to know the significance of the step that's
>only loose when Gerard treads on it.

part of Corwin's "haunting" of the palace...

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 13 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Adams & Baum & Brust (4 msgs) &
                          Chambers & Dick & McIntyre & Simak &
                          Vance (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 03:23:53 GMT
From: gts@dasys1.uucp (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Douglas Adams Dire Straits reference?

Did we ever decide exactly WHICH Dire Straits song was being referred to in
Douglas Adams' "So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish"?  (The reference in
question is at the beginning of chapter 22, which is on page 125 of the
hardcover edition.)

It was the first song off whatever album is being referred to, right?  So
far, I've listened to "Telegraph Road" and "Tunnel of Love"...  the first
was at the suggestion of a friend who said that she was PRETTY sure that
Mr. Adams was referring to _Love Over Gold_.  I also remember seeing a
net.article go by that suggested that it was "Down {to the?} Waterline" off
the first album... I haven't listened to that yet, but I will.

Did we ever decide which it was?  Please E-MAIL me if you've got the
answer, or a guess, or you know that we DON'T know the answer...

Thanks much!  [Yes, I know I'm a hopeless romantic...]

Gregory T. Samson
ARPA: gts@prep.AI.MIT.EDU
UUCP: ...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!gts

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 20:52:20 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@mtune.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: Choose your own Universe

> Of course!  I've known the answer was Oz since this thread was started.
> I didn't want to be the first to mention it, though - you see, Oz is
> visited by the protagonists of "Number of the Beast" and I didn't want to
> get caught in the Heinlein flame wars.  ;-)
> 
> I'd love to live in the Emerald City.  They could teach us a lot about
> software.  Wouldn't you LOVE to take a look at Tik-Tok's source code?
> ("BMO - Branch on Mainspring Out?").

Wow another Oz person!  Actually I was afraid I was going to get flamed
just for mentioning Oz in the first place.  Source code for Tik Tok?  Neat
idea!  I guess I assumed his "think" would be completely machinery.  The
having to wind it up probably did that.  I have a question for Mr.  Smith
or anyone else for that matter.  Where do you think Oz is?  I have only
read up to book 5 and have a few theories but would like to hear others.  I
am looking forward to book 6, but have to stop to learn UNIX. (I am new to
all this).

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 88 23:43:24 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Phil Smith)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

SPOILERS from the books JHEREG, YENDI, TECKLA, TALTOS...

fy03+@andrew.cmu.edu (Francis J. Yenca) writes:
>How do you feel that Vlad has grown up in Teckla?

In JHEREG, YENDI, and TECKLA, Vlad himself says that he joined the Jhereg
"business end" mainly to beat up Dragaerans.  Doesn't sound like a good
foundation for a life to me.  In TECKLA, Vlad was forced to re-evaluate his
life...  and perhaps to start doing things for reasons other than hatred of
the dominant race.  In a very real sense, Vlad went from a cardboard,
one-dimensional character to a three-dimensional, flesh and blood human
(okay, okay, Easterner, get that Dragaeran off my back!, aaaaargh! ;-)
being.  (I suspect that Aliera's little bombshell in JHEREG helped a bit,
by thoroughly shaking the foundation of his life.)

I admit that at first, I didn't like TECKLA one bit.  Then again, I
purposely picked it up as mindless humor and jumped into what I thought was
a shallow wading pool, only to find myself in the murky depths of an ocean.
I reread it recently, this time with the expectation that it wasn't light
entertainment; I must say it was interesting to watch Vlad try to remain
the same despite the yendi bite in his soul (so to speak) -- try even to
the end of the book, although it seemed pretty clear to me that he had lost
that particular fight.

Series from mindless entertainment to something with depth.  Accept it: it
will (guaranteed!) make for a better series.  I mean, how much can you say
in the format of JHEREG/YENDI without it becoming stale sooner or later
(probably sooner)?  Now there's room for growth all around, and more
stories in the context of that growth.  

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 14:25:56 GMT
From: chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Ri-Zhong Chiu)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
>I must admit, I had a great deal of trouble understanding the value of
>such gestures as barricades in the street when teleportation is so common
>and (seemingly) dirt cheap.

You've got to be at least a citizen to have a connection to the orb in
order to teleport yourself (and be a somewhat decent sorcerer at that).  Or
if you're just a common easterner as many of the humans are, you probably
don't have enough money (that's why you're living in the slums of
Adrilanka) to hire a sorceress from the left hand of the Jhereg to do a
teleportation, so I would think barricades were probably pretty effective
in the easterner's section of town.

Timothy Chiu
University of Pennsylvania
chiu@eniac.seas.upenn.edu 
chiu@neural-vlsi.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 16:49:05 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>I think this opinion comes from a failure to appreciate the kind of
>society that Brust has drawn in these books.  It is *not* a generic
>medieval fantasy background.  Generic medieval fantasy backgrounds don't
>have oganized gangs, for example.

I noticed the differences from GMF, I swear I did :-).  No, my objection
isn't based on a GMF stereotype.  I just felt that the changes in both Vlad
and his wife were unmotivated and anachronistic.  Basically, I felt as if
the characters were being directed by an off-stage puppetmaster, rather
than having their actions and thoughts flow out of their characterization
and environment.

>Now, without rereading the books (which I will eventually do), I don't
>really have an opinion as to whether the kind of revolution described in
>Tekla is really plausible in the society Brust has described.

Well, re-read and see what you think.  I haven't read the books in quite a
while myself.  Perhaps I would find it more acceptable the second time
around.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 06:36:49 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") says:
> I must admit, I had a great deal of trouble understanding the value of
> such gestures as barricades in the street when teleportation is so common
> and (seemingly) dirt cheap.

As I recall, the purpose was to stop COMMERCE, not people. That is, the
"bad" section of town was a prime market area, and if people couldn't get
in and out with their wagonloads of goods.....

I don't think it's very easy to teleport a wagon. Morrolon might manage it
- -- after all, he floated a castle -- but probably very few others could.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
{cuae2,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 21:35:38 GMT
From: john@bc-cis.uucp (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: King in Yellow (author?)

rodgin@hpccc.HP.COM (Lisa Rodgin) writes:
>Can someone tell me who wrote the story "The King in Yellow"? (At least I
>think that is the title). Somehow I associate this story with H.P.
>Lovecraft, but I am not sure that he wrote it. A small plot summary would
>also be helpful.....

More or less quoted from my copy of _TKiY_, an ACE sf paperback (no.
44481-4):

"Robert W. Chambers, born 1865, Brooklyn, NY, died 1933, studied art &
worked for _Vogue_, _Life_ & _Truth_ magazines as an illustrator in the
1890's.  Started professional writing career when _The King in Yellow_
became a bestseller.  Also wrote _The Maker Of Moons_ (another fantasy) as
well as historical romances (eg, _The Man They Hanged_ & _The Drums Of
Aulone_) and novels of New York society life (eg, _The Girl In The Golden
Rags_)."

The original copyright date is 1895, taken out by a F. Tennyson Neely (his
real name?) so it's likely this was a literary ancestor of Mr Lovecraft's
work, perhaps this is your Lovecraft connection?  Anyway there's a
Lovecraft quote on my ACE's frontispiece, to wit,

   "Very genuine is the strain of horror in the early work of Robert W.
Chambers.  THE KING IN YELLOW, a series of vaguely connected short stories
having as a background a monstrous and suppressed book whose perusal brings
fright, madness, and spectral tragedy, really achieves notable heights of
cosmic fear.  The most powerful of its tales is \fIThe Yellow Sign\fP."

Hope this helps.  I haven't read it yet, waiting for the proper mood, you
see.  So, Lovecraft will have to do for the plot summary.  Also, I don't
think it counts as a spoiler, nicer that way.

john@bc-cis

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 07:27:41 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Philip K. Dick bibliography

There is a recent collection of short stories by PKD (outside of the
5-volume hardcover set) entitled I_Hope_I_Shall_Arrive_Soon.

For a good PKD bibliography, may I refer you to Paul William's excellent
book, 'Only Apparently Real: The World of Philip K. Dick'.  It was a Hugo
nominee last year, and deservedly so.  90% of it consists of interviews
with Dick conducted by Paul Williams, and transcribed verbatim.

Jim Freund
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 03:20:03 GMT
From: newsome@dasys1.uucp (Richard Newsome)
Subject: Re: Help on "Vonda N. McIntyre" (science fiction), please

The Exile Waiting. Fawcett, 1975 (also SF BOOK Club). Novel.
Dreamsnake. Houghton-Mifflin, 1978 (excerpted in ANALOG). Novel.
Fireflood. Houghton-Mifflin, 1979. Story collection.
The Entropy Effect. Pocket Books, 1981. Star Trek novel.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Pocket Books, 1982. Movie novelization.
Superluminal. Houghton-Mifflin, 1983. Novel.
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock. Pocket Books, 1984. Movie 
   novelization.
The Bride. Dell, 1985. Movie novelization.
Barbary. Houghton-Mifflin, 1986. 
Enterprise: The First Adventure. Pocket Books, 1986. Star Trek novel.
The Voyage Home. Pocket Books, 1987. Star Trek movie novelization.

Edited:
Aurora: Beyond Equality. Fawcett, 1976. Anthology of feminist SF.

I may have missed a few more recent items, or pseudonymous items (if any).

Richard Newsome
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!newsome

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 23:39:35 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Simak bibiography requested

Number me among those who was greatly upset to hear of the death of
Clifford Simak.  His writing has enchanted me for many years.  I have
always been struck by the fact that a gentle newspaper man from Minnesota
(or was it Wisconsin?) could dream up such mindboggling and wonderful
novels and stories (``The Big Front Yard'', _The_Goblin_Reservation_,
_A_Choice_of_Gods_, _Time_and_Again_, _Out_of_Their_Minds_ -- the list goes
on and on.)

Several weeks ago, I was examing my collection, and began to wonder if
there were any Simak books of which I was unaware.  I have around 30, and
there is at least one that I don't have a copy of (_Ring_Around_the_Sun_,
one of my favorites.)

Does anyone have a reasonably complete bibliography of Simak's writing?
Could they email it to me or else post it?  Please, don't post anything
that is limited to a couple of books -- email those to me and I will
assemble them for a summary if necessary.

(if nothing turns up, I'll catalogue what I have, which, although probably
incomplete, is better than nothing, I guess.)

Thanks in advance,

Richard Welty
H: 518-237-6307
W: 518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{rochester,philabs,uunet}!steinmetz!welty        

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 16:31:18 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
[Perjorative comments about Jack Vance (deleted)]

All right, so there was a "quest", but it merely was a thread to tie the
serial together, giving Cugel the opportunity for his adventures.  This is
hardly quest fantasy, as the requester would have defined it.  Cugel was so
a likable rogue, quite within the definition of the piqueresque.  If YOU
didn't like him, I can't help it.  I don't recall the raping and killing,
or at least not killing any innocents.

No Jack Vance's books aren't all like this.  He writes a lot of harder SF
also, but his style is similar: loose, humorous, colorful and semantically
rich*, with little deep psychology or "character development".  I happen to
like this type of writing.  I can pick up a mainstream novel if I want to
wallow in the human condition.  Gene Wolfe cited Vance as his early
inspiration, and there are similarities, although Wolfe is a more careful
writer and less prolific.  But I suspect you wouldn't like him either.  I
wouldn't recommend you read any more Vance, if you didn't like "Eyes" or
"Dragonmasters".

I loved some of the names for the magic spells the wizards used.  If I can
recall them, some were: The Excellent Prismatic Spray, a blinding spray of
light rays, Spell of Forlorn Encystment in which the victim is encapsulated
in a bubble miles beneath the surface of the earth, permanently; or best of
all, the Spell of Infinite Enlightenment, in which the wizard-victim
suddenly becomes omniscient, and a few seconds later goes permanently and
irreversibly mad from comprehending all.

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 08:38:26 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: Cugel (was Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>I liked the first 3 books of the "Dying Earth" series.  He has a number of
>excellent short stories in an anthology called "The Narrow Land." Try that
>one.

I'm rather a fan of Jack Vance. I find his prose style, plotting and
characterization very enjoyable. I should note that in all of these areas
Vance is very original, very different from the norm. This appeals to me,
but since he is a little bizarre I can understand how he might turn other
people off. One book of his which I particularily liked was Lyonesse.
Having said that I need to warn people that the first hundred pages are a
little slow, and more than a little depressing.

A few people on the net have critisized Vance's characterization. There is
some truth to this, but I like to think that his characterization is more
understated than cardboard. And in Lyonesse for example even that isn't
true, it has a lot of original and fully three dimensional characters.

John L. McKernan
Student
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 08:01:40 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Request for Non-Quest Fantasy

geb@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU (Gordon E. Banks) says:
> All right, so there was a "quest", but it merely was a thread to tie the
> serial together, giving Cugel the opportunity for his adventures.  This
> is hardly quest fantasy, as the requester would have defined it.  Cugel
> was so a likable rogue, quite within the definition of the piqueresque.
> If YOU didn't like him, I can't help it.

Cugel was, uhm, bumbling. I could chuckle at him, occasionally, such a
stuffed shirt. But the mortality rate... it seems like anybody who came
near Cugel was marked for death.  But I think I figured it out... for each
installment of the serial, Vance had to create an entire new cast of
characters, and then kill them all off by the end of the episode. That
seems to be about the only thing that makes sense. For example, remember
the crossing of the desert, near the end, and how all his companions end up
dead, before he reaches the city and in the final episode meets the wizard?

> Gene Wolfe cited Vance as his early inspiration, and there are
> similarities, although Wolfe is a more careful writer and less prolific.
> But I suspect you wouldn't like him either.

I like Wolfe. Wonderful command of the English language, tells a good story
occasionally, too.  My main problem with Wolfe is that he's TOO prolific,
in that he has a disturbing tendency to produce n-ologies. I have a
standing policy: I don't read a series unless I have each and every book in
that series (nothing more irritating than finding that volume 2 is
missing). Cuts down on my reading load quite a bit -- by the time the the
last book is out, the first book is out of print, so I don't have to worry
about reading any of the books in the series.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191        
Lafayette, LA 70509              
elg@usl.CSNET
ihnp4!killer!elg

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 13 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 16:07:37 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>I did not say sex in SF is bad!! I did not comment about SiSL because I
>_like_ the novel and understand the sexual passages in the novel.  I
>question the reasoning behind the hero in the story having an incestuous
>relationship with his mother and his "daughters".

At risk of talking over everyone elses' heads: in TEfL, incest is defined
in terms of GENETICS.  If the gene charts show no danger, there's no reason
not to indulge in sex.  I can't find the quote without rereading the entire
book (and even as a speedreader, that would take a bit! ;-), but there is a
quote along the lines of "sometimes it was safer for full siblings to have
children than for total strangers" -- as determined by gene charts.

Heinlein is not necessarily propounding *that* as utopia, either.  (Cf. my
earlier articles.  I see we're back into the 6-month Heinlein cycle...)  He
*looks* at various societies -- but if we try to build a profile of RAH
from all his characters, we get a decidedly schzoid personality.  It's much
simpler and undoubtedly more correct to say that Heinlein is *exploring*
various situations -- not promulgating them, just taking a look at them.
Is that so hard to accept?

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 15:56:48 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

steveg@hub.ucsb.edu (STeve GReenland) writes:
>mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>>P.9 -- "But why waste time raping me?.. {talk of how a woman can properly
>>deal with a rape}.. They had me on the floor, a gang bang with minor
>>sadism ...{her attidute towards the rapists is portrayed in the next
>>section}..  I figured him for basically decent soul despite his taste
>>for- no, aside from is taste a bit of rape-- a taste common to most males
>>according to the kinseys."
>>
>>   I have not personally read through the Kinsey report, but in know
>>others in the Psy. community who have, and to have this type of behavor
>>condoned and even promoted by mis-quoting the Kinseys is deporable.
>
>HUH???  I don't think rape (or any other violation of individual rights by
>force) is ever condoned by RAH.  Certainly not in FRIDAY.

(1) It was made clear in the book that Friday was raised with, shall we
say, "different" attitudes toward sexuality, courtesy being an AP.  I can
see where she would not see rape as *particularly* traumatic (not when you
consider that, from her standpoint, she was *raised* to be raped!  --not
the most pleasant of worlds....).

(2) Can you say "rationalization"?  I knew you could...  The society of
FRIDAY is obviously shot to h*ll; continued sanity may require finding
rationalizations for all sorts of unpleasant occurrences, including rape.
(Not to mention having a corporation nuke a country's capital city, etc.
As I said, not the most pleasant of worlds.)

Heinlein was NOT trying to show us utopia -- he was showing us Hell.  Why
can't people accept that?  (Because it conflicts with beliefs that he's an
evil fascist sexist etc., that's why.)

I've read most of RAH's books.  It is notable that he is rarely advancing
any society in these books as a perfect one; in point of fact, many of the
more controversial books are in fact too successful at pointing out the
drawbacks of their societies to be advancing them as utopias -- so, of
course, they are condemned by the kind of idiot who totally misses the
point of such books.  (Remember the idiots who continually try to get
HUCKLEBERRY FINN banned as "racist".  Some people need social satire
transplants.)  

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 17:17:26 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

BREEBAAR@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
>Question to the Net: Has anyone actually *read* Heinlein's 'To Sail Beyond
>The Sunset'? It has been mentioned a few times lately; always as a prime
>example of Thrash/Hack SF; but no-one said anything more detailed.

Yes, some of us have. Here's the review I wrote of it back in issue 18 of
OtherRealms. (This review is copyright 1987 by chuq von rospach)

To Sail Beyond the Sunset, subtitled The Life and Loves of Maureen Johnson
(Being the Memoirs of a Somewhat Irregular Lady) [Ace/Putnam, 407 pages] is
the latest from Robert A. Heinlein, one of the acknowledged masters of the
field. The book seems to finish the trend started in The Number of the
Beast, as Heinlein carefully and methodically ties together the universes
in his many stories and novels into a single unified whole.

This book will be controversial, as every Heinlein work has been since he
discovered sex in the classic work Time Enough for Love. This book is about
sex and, almost incidentally, the history of the human race.  It sports an,
um, interesting cover by Boris. No, to be honest, it sports an anatomically
perfect naked Boris female cover, tastefully arranged and perfectly static
- -- I don't like Boris, because all of his covers look like something out of
Gray's Anatomy -- biologically perfect and at the same time very lifeless,
static, and boring. This is no different -- when you see the cover at a
distance, it will make you take a closer look, but when you do, there is
nothing there.

What really matters are the words. And words there are, 400 pages of a
more-or-less monologue by Maureen Johnson (later Maureen Smith, later
Maureen Long), born 1882, mother of seventeen, including Woodrow Wilson
Smith, later known as Lazarus Long.

Readers should be aware that this is not Science Fiction, in any real
sense. A better classification might be Historical Romance, a romantic and
erotic biography that happens to be set in the fictional world that
Heinlein developed. It is, strictly speaking, a sequel to both The Number
of the Beast and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, but it is also
spiritually a sequel to his entire canon. This book, however, stands on its
own, and is one of his best works.

That is a statement that cries out for justification. Heinlein polarizes
readers like few authors do; it isn't a matter of whether you like his
works, but whether you're a fan of his "early" works, or his "later"
material, the boundary falling somewhere around Time Enough for Love.
Heinlein is, the best active writer of dialog. When the dialog is under
control and working with the story, as it does here and in Friday, his
books live and breath.  When it isn't, however, and the dialog becomes an
end to itself, pages and pages of cloying triviality show up as the
characters try to show each other up. In the meantime the plot, stuck off
in a corner, dies of loneliness. Both Beast and Cat suffered from this
disease -- to the point where I was unable to finish either.

This book avoids that trap. It is almost 100% dialog (actually monologue,
Maureen to reader), and unlike Beast or Cat, the primary purpose of the
book is to tell Maureen's story. The story does tie up many loose ends, but
within context, not simply for the sake of tying things together.

There are two stories in this book. The primary story is that of Maureen,
from her early childhood to her present time in the far future, but the
primary focus is from the late 1890's to the end of World War II.  The
secondary story is barely a subplot -- Maureen in captivity awaiting trial
and execution on some unknown parallel world, hoping for rescue.  This
subplot leads off each chapter for a few paragraphs, and then steps out of
the way for Maureen to continue her tale.

The memoir is two things: a continuing dialog of her sexual beliefs,
exploits, and encounters, and a critique (and occasional rewrite) of
American society and morals. Maureen lives in the world that is, but talks
about the world that should be, as seen through the eyes of Heinlein. The
erotica (for it is that, and not pornography) is mental, not graphic.
Maureen isn't afraid to tell you exactly what she thinks or feels, but
Heinlein avoids the nitty-gritty details. It reminded me of an updated, low
key Fanny Hill. She is upfront about her moral and social values, and lives
by a Libertarian standpoint that is critical of and different from our
reality.

I'm sure lots of people will find reasons to dislike this book -- the
sexuality portrayed, the morals, the attitudes --Heinlein has written a
lot into this work without being particularly afraid about who he offends.
That this book could be as important to the genre as Stranger in a Strange
Land or Time Enough for Love were; it is also possible that it will be
written off as another throwaway book by a man obsessed with S*x. I hope
the latter doesn't happen -- and I feel sorry for the folks who feel that
way, for being unable to see past their own inhibitions to the work behind
it.

This book feels as if it was written to be the last Heinlein book. I
sincerely hope not -- I want to see if he can top this.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 15:13:33 GMT
From: ethan@ut-emx.uucp (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> In all the Heinlein novels I have ever read, the men are in charge.

I'm not Heinlein's greatest fan, and haven't been since I was a teenager,
but I couldn't let this go by.

In Glory Road the ruler of the known universe (which is *quite* large) is a
woman.  Moreover she is absolutely, without question, in charge.

Ethan Vishniac
Dept of Astronomy
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 02:29:15 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:
>Look, Heinlein writes well.  He can suspend your disbelief while you're
>reading.  But I don't believe any of his societies for a minute.  The
>so-called "politeness" that's exclaimed about over and over is merely the
>up side of that society.  With real characters and real humans, what you'd
>see would be extreme regimentation, lots of individuality, intolerance of
>the different and corruption.
>
>Don't be misled by what you're TOLD.  Go by what you're SHOWN.

   Actually all you need to do is look at societies where bearing open arms
was the norm and look at how people behaved.  Examples?  Frontier America,
Feudal and post Feudal Europe (upper classes only need apply).

Extreme regimentation?  No.  Regimentation is a product of powerlessnes of
the many in the face of the few, coupled with bureaucratic machinery.

Loss of individuality?  No, with reservations.

Intolerance of the different?  Yes, mostly because the intolerant have
relatively more power.

Corruption?  Yes, see below.

   The problem that would arise in Heinlein "polite" societies [the armed
society of Beyond This Horizon, the anarchism of The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress] is that it leaves lots of scope for bullies to operate.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 23:28:24 GMT
From: jwhitnel@csi.uucp (Jerry Whitnell)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jvh@clinet.FI (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen) writes:
>In any case, it seems you understand SiSL's sex because it is closer tied
>to contemporary morality. You should not question an authors reasoning
>without presenting some reasoning on your own part, about why it's not
>okay, even if you wash your hands...

It is interesting to note that at the time SiSL was written, most of the
sexual acts described in the book were NOT acceptable under the mores of
the time.  It was written in the early 60's, before the "sexual
revolution."  Even then, Heinlein was ahead of his time in questioning the
reasons behind the mores and taboos of society.

Jerry Whitnell
Communication Solutions, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 13:23:21 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Ah, yes. Criticize a book that has a lot of fan following and get accused
>of having never read the book.
>
>I've read this book twice.
>
>They lived in fear of the airlock. Cardinal Sin #1 was being

And you've read the book twice? I've read it several times (>5) and I don't
remember anyone living in fear of >anything<. Not even the Warden and his
goons. The society knew the rules, and in general there were >no< problems.
The courtroom scene resulted when a tourist took 'liberties' with a young
woman. If you remember, not only was Stuart not forced to breath vacumn,
but Mannie punished the stilyagi for wanting to kill him. Now, we can
discuss the merits of the rules, the existence of safety nets for the
unwary or incompetent, etc., but we shouldn't misrepresent things.

>impolite, which netted you death. The society's outward "safety" for

I don't think that death was automatic for impoliteness, just possible.

>women and children was due to:
>
>1) Men having an extremely dominant position. Women were rare, so men
>fought

My memory is that these fights were mostly in the past, when women were
extremely few in number. I don't believe that such incidents were common
any more by the time of the revolution; didn't Mannie and Stuart discuss
this after the trial?

>   over them. Women were not "worshiped" -- they were *objects* of value
>   and treated as such.
>
>2) Strict order due to terror-tactics vigilante "justice." The
>   trains may run on time, but this does not mean the society is utopian.

I'm not sure I see the 'terror' here. Where is there terror when everyone
knows the rules? You don't get sniped from cover, or car-bombed, or
strangled in your bed at night.  True, there is room for abuse of the
system (a lot of room), but that would tend to be self-correcting: the
abuser would breathe vacumn. You can argue that the system is too informal
to be just, but 'terror-tactics' is too strong.

Ned Danieley
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Box 3140
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807 or 684-6942
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 18:04:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

ewa@silvlis.COM (no human name given) writes:
> ** SPOILER FOR "FRIDAY" **
> At the end of *Friday*, she marries the guy who raped her.
>
> That's beyond sexist.  That shows a disgusting, appalling lack of respect
> for women or their feelings -- or -- a complete and utter lack of
> understanding of how women DO feel about the subject, and an apparent
> disinterest in learning.
> [more of the same ilk deleted]

Nonsense.  Friday considered killing him.  The big thing that stopped her
was that he was a fellow AP (artificial person).  Also, she says, not in
these words, that he showed compassion, even while carrying out orders to
rape her.  And rape, to her as an AP, was not the trauma it would be to an
ordinary woman.  Her reactions have NOTHING to do with the feelings of
ordinary women.  After all, very little else she does in the whole novel
has anything to do with what ordinary women do or feel.

Seems to me that if you read it with an open mind, Heinlein makes a case
for her forgiving the guy.  And after that, he helps her escape with her
life, and in general, redeems himself.  Finally, it's oversimplifying to
say that they married; what the novel says is that legally, they married,
but it implies that all the adult members of that household were one big
happy sexually-sharing family.  (I admit that I would have preferred she
marry Georges and let Tillie marry Pete the rapist.)

H. George Friedman, Jr.
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1304 West Springfield Avenue
Urbana, Illinois  61801
USENET:	...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman
CSNET:	friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu
ARPA:	friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 13 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 164

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 01:14:53 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@moss.att.com (A Andrews)
Subject: Mr. Heinlein Is Gone.

ABC News announced tonight that Mr. Robert A. Heinlein has died at the age
of 80.

As a personal tribute I would like to say that his works and his
libertarian ideals have influenced me more than any other factors I can
name.  I will miss him.

Arlan Andrews
SF author, ANALOG contributor
Heinlein mourner

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 12:54:10 GMT
From: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Robert A. Heinlein Obituary from The New York Times

What the New York Times had to say:


(deleted)

End of material from The New York Times, Tuesday, May 10, 1988.  Quoted
without permission.

Join me in mourning a life-long hero and provider of hundreds of hours of
entertainment and enjoyment.  "The Green Hills of Earth" remains my all
time favorite S.F. short story, and has never failed to bring a tear to my
eye.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 02:56:37 GMT
From: inuxm!arlan@moss.att.com (A Andrews)
Subject: Requiem:  The Day That SF Died

THE DAY THAT SF DIED

copyright 1988, Arlan Andrews

(roughly based on melody of "American Pie" by Don Mclean, ca.1971)


(deleted)

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 14:40:21 GMT
From: CHAPMAN@kl.sri.com (Walter Chapman)
Subject: My Tribute to R.A.H.

I remember back in 1969 when my high school English teacher `made' us read
this book called _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_.  If there was one thing we
hated it was the `reading list'.  "Miss Tozi...do we really have to read
this book?"

So I read SIASL.  I had read all of Verne's stuff many,many years earlier
and had gotten out of reading SF.  After reading SIASL I was hooked again.

So I read all of R.A.H.'s stuff. And Asimov. And Clarke....etc.etc.

So...thank you Mr. Heinlein.

and from one Navy man to another:

 `Lines cleared fore and aft, Sir. Fair winds and following seas.'

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 22:10:13 GMT
From: skitchen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Skitch)
Subject: Obituary for Robert A. Heinlein

This is a copy of Robert A. Heinlein's obituary printed in today's
(5/10/88) Boston Globe:

(deleted)

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 09:12:27 GMT
From: mkent@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Marty Kent)
Subject: Robert Heinlein's Passing

Heard it first from Pat, on the phone, long distance from Colorado: Robert
Heinlein is dead.  I turned on the late news to see what they had to say.
Not a word, but I missed the beginning.  Could she have been confused?
Then it occurs to me to log on and check the sf-lovers newsgroup, which I
haven't read in years - something oughta be there.

Mark all as read, then P back - five, ten messages, nothing, and I'm
breathing a sigh of relief, then I see the last one: confirmation, he's
gone. More, five, ten announcements, no doubt about it...

How I love that man.  
Twenty years ago I was fifteen... 
finishing The Puppet Masters, 
The Door into Summer in the light of dawn after reading all night,
enthralled, charmed

I've seen a magazine ad with a picture of the surface of the moon, and a
caption something like 
   "If aeronautics had advanced as fast as electronics, 
    this could be the view from your office window"
and felt something twist inside me
I read The Menace from Earth so many times I remember quite clearly
the wind pressing against my wings, flying in the cavern of air 
in the heart of the moon

Man my only friend
Valentine Michael Smith, Lazarus Long, Andrew Jackson Libby
Friday

I've only learned how to be human by watching my friends
He was a friend
He got me in plenty of trouble, no doubt about that
with his wild images of free sexuality
he had me mouthing off to my superior officers in the US Navy
he got me thrown in jail for my unruly ways
more times than I can count
he had my expectations of peoples' resources raised so high
I took a thousand disappointments
and I'm thankful for that, very thankful

Marty Kent
Sixth Sense Research and Development
415/642 0288
415/548 9129
MKent@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu
{uwvax, decvax, inhp4}!ucbvax!mkent%dewey.soe.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 18:49:26 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

stan@sdba.UUCP (Stan Brown) writes:
>How about Heinlein's Universe during the exploration of the solar system ?

I think Heinlein did some of his best writing about the days of exploring
the solar system.  But, fabulous as it was to read about, would you really
want to have lived it (or died it)?  I'm quoting from memory, so forgive if
I get things out of sequence, but I remember from my favorite Heinlein
story of all time:

   The crew signed releases for everything in those days.  A Lloyds
   associate would have laughed in your face at the notion of insuring a
   spaceman.  The Space Precautionary Act had never been heard of; and the
   Company was responsible only for wages --if and when.  Half the ships
   that went further than Luna City never came back.  Spacemen did not
   care.  By preference they signed for shares and any one of them would
   have bet you that he could jump from the two-hundredth floor of Harriman
   tower and ground safely --if you gave him three to two and allowed him
   rubber heels for the landing.

Ah well, I've just heard about Heinlein's death and am feeling both lost
and nostalgic.  He was a great man, a great writer, and one of the
formative influences of my youth.  I remember my mother complaining when I
was a teenager that if I didn't turn out all right she was shipping me to
Robert Heinlein, because she hadn't raised me, he had.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 16 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 165

Today's Topics:

	  Miscellaneous - Interstellar Computer Virus (2 msgs) &
                          Humans vs. the Galaxy & Locus News &
                          Hugos (2 msgs) & Literary Quality (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 11:37:12 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Interstellar Computer Virus?

   I was leafing through some Carl Sagan books (no flames please, I was
taking a break from writing a paper) and thought about interstellar contact
with other civilizations.  Sagan believes that radio messages with
instructions to build some thing might be a possible first contact scenario
(the basis for his fiction: _Contact_).

   Well, I got to thinking.  There might be pranksters out there who might
send out coded instructions to build self-replicating von Neumann (sp?)
machines that would consume its environment and thereby destory the planet
that it's born on (as in Clarke's _2010_).  That'd be a pretty sad and
black-humor ending to civilization on Earth, wouldn't it?

   The machines might be based on physics that we can hardly hope to
understand and we may just build the thing without understanding it (as did
the scientists in _Contact_).  Are there books that exploit this idea out
there? I remember hearing about _A for Andromeda_ (?) that might've been
about a story with just such a scenario except with a machine with a simple
robot instead of a replicating von Neumann machine.  I'm not sure of this
at all since my memory isn't all that great.

   Any hints?

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP:  {rutgers, att, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai 
Bitnet:   vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet 
Internet:       swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com 

------------------------------

From: smith@cos.com (Steve Smith)
Date: 10 May 88 22:10:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Interstellar Computer Virus?

hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
> ...  Sagan believes that radio messages with instructions to build some
>thing might be a possible first contact scenario (the basis for his
>fiction: _Contact_).
> ...	Well, I got to thinking.  There might be pranksters out there ...
>
>to understand and we may just build the thing without understanding it ...
>Are there books that exploit this idea out there? I remember hearing about
>_A for Andromeda_ (?) ...

Two books about "interstellar viruses":

"A for Andromeda", by Fred Hoyle.  It was supposedly made from a BBC TV
series.  Has anybody seen the series?  Anyway, the book is superb.  Sir
Fred has been accused of many things, but lack of imagination is *not* one
of them.  There was also a sequel, "Andromeda Breakthrough", which was not
particularly notable.

"The Siren Stars", by (I think) Walt and Leigh Richmond.  The worst sort of
"secret agent" crap.  I saw it as a serial in Analog; I don't know if it
made it into a book version.

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 11:07:28 GMT
From: nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Humans vs. the Galaxy

I'm surprised at a couple of the titles that have not come up in the recent
"humans vs. the galaxy" discussion.  One is "The Wizard of Linn", by A.E.
van Vogt, which is one of the better treatments of the 'barbarians in
spaceships' idea.  Humans and some only mildly nasty (by van Vogt's
standards) aliens have nuked each other nearly into oblivion, and are both
coming back after centuries of separation.  It seems that some of the old
technology was really built to last, and both sides are using ancient
spaceships which they don't really understand.

The other is "Birthright, the Book of Man", by Mike Resnick.  Lots of
people have recently been discussing Resnick without mentioning this, his
best book!  It consists of a series of short stories spanning Man's entire
career in the galaxy.  (We dominate the whole thing a couple of times, but
are eventually exterminated like the Antha in "All the Way Back".)  The
science is so ludicrous at times that it makes you gag, but some of the
writing is pretty good.  Resnick is very good at the tactic of beginning
his stories with quotes from fictional sources.  In "Birthright" the quotes
are taken from two books, one written by men at our peak and full of
pompous stuff about our 'manifest destiny' to rule the galaxy, and one
written by aliens several millenia after our extinction, which takes a very
different viewpoint.  Most of the aliens in this book are very believably
alien, not just humans in funny suits.  The very fact that they are able
and willing to exterminate us in the end shows how much they learned from
us over the centuries.

Don't look for much depth in either of these books, but both make fun
escapist reading.

Louis Howell
nazgul@math.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 20:13:52 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Locus news

I noticed in the latest issue of Locus (SF fanzine/newsletter for those of
you who don't know) that Fritz Leiber has completed a NEW Fafrd & Grey
Mouser novel, to be combined with one or two short stories to form the
seventh volume in the series.  The sad news is that this information was
included in his column along with a description of the death of his
long-time friend who actually created the characters.

Also, in this issue is confirmation that Sean Connery WILL play Indiana
Jones' father in the third "Raiders" film.  Also, reviews of Asimov's
"Prelude To Foundation", due in May, Barry Hugharts sequel to "Bridge Of
Birds" called "The Story Of The Stone", due in July, and Stephen W.
Hawking's theoretical physics book "A Brief History Of Time: From The Big
Bang To Black Holes" (or something like that), due in April (should be
out).  Hawking, for those who don't know, is considered to be on a par with
Einstein for his work in theoretical physics, particularly dealing with
black holes.  The sad (and amazing) thing is that he has Lou Gehrig's
disease.  It was diagnosed around 1970, I think, (I'm doing this all from
memory), and was given two years to live.  He's been confined to a wheel
chair since then, and can now only use three fingers on one hand.  He talks
with the aide of a voice synthesizer.  (Don't ask me what he must have gone
through to write this book, let alone do his day to day work and living).
And with all that, he's considered the greatest living mind in the
theoretical physics arena.  The book is given a very good review (is
supposedly quite readable by the layman, it's NOT a book intended for
scientists).

All three books are hardbacks.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 23:36:34 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

I thought about Chuq's posting and then combined it with various other
ideas (mainly based on Mundania's "write-in ballots", as I've been
consulting at the local Board of Elections).  I think I've an idea.

The basic idea would be to keep Other Forms in a modified form.  It is
obvious, from the existence of "Watchmen"/"Dark Knight", that new *forms*
of fiction can spring up and that existing forms which are not normally
Hugo-quality may be used in Hugo-quality ways.  Thus, "Other Forms" can
potentially be useful in insuring that deserving works not fitting into
other categories earn their just rewards.  ( ;-) This, of course, is rather
obvious.

Also rather obvious, however, is that an anarchic category just won't do.
As Chuq said, there are altogether too many possibilities for abuse of the
category.

My suggestion for the "Other Forms" category is that it be a two-step
category. (I can't think of a good, short way to describe it, sorry.)  The
first step is to select categories; last year and this year, for example,
"Best Graphic Novel" would be a good category.  This would be voted on the
same way that specific works/authors/artists, etc. are voted on for the
Hugo ballot.  This would prevent people from, say, nominating "Battlefield
Earth" as "Best SF Schlock".  [ ;-) ]

Voting on categories would be done fairly early in the Hugo nomination
process.  This would be so the "winning" categories could be selected and
made public in time for works to be nominated for these categories at the
same time as other works are nominated into "standard" categories.  From
that point, works in "Special Forms" categories may be handled in the same
way as for normal categories.

This would deal with the changing SF scene with minimal effect on the
existing Hugo nomination process; it is flexible while it helps to insure
that oddball "write-in" nominees do not swamp the nominations or final
balloting.

Any comments?  (Refinements also welcome.  Understand, also, that I am not
all that familiar with the Hugo nomination and balloting processes, so this
may have to be modified in a few areas.)

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 00:31:25 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations: "Other Forms"

>My suggestion for the "Other Forms" category is that it be a two-step
>category.

>Voting on categories would be done fairly early in the Hugo nomination
>process.

It's a nice idea. About the only criticism would be that, traditionally,
worldcon committees have had major problems getting ballots out on time
already (Nolacon, for instance, ran very late with the nominating ballot;
we don't want to talk about Conspiracy, do we?)

By making it a three step process (vote for category, nominate category,
vote for award) you're going to make it much easier for the committee
trying to get it's act together to hose out the Hugos. And the
pre-nomination process will be biased heavily towards those folks who
pre-register.

I think the administration would bog down and make the award a pain.
Shifting from a two step to a three step voting process would increase
costs and increase the chance of someone royally screwing up (with
volunteer committees, not something to pooh-pooh and ignore). Better, I
think, to put reasonable limits on "Other Forms" as I"m not sure there are
going to be enough potential winners in any given year to make multiple
awards worthwhile.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 15:49:24 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>I certainly wouldn't characterize this dark, brooding work [THE BOOK OF
>THE NEW SUN] as optimistic.  It was about as optimistic as The
>Silmarillion!  That doesn't detract from my opinion of this work as one of
>the all time best works of science fiction, however.

Optimistic?  Consider:

It shows humans still alive *millions* of years from now. Obviously,
we've muddled through the present mess.

It depicts a universe where, despite inevitable(?) frictions, we *can*
get along with other races.

Even the "dark, brooding" nature of the book is to an optimistic
purpose:  this is the "darkness before the dawn," the dawn being, of
course, the coming of the New Sun.  If you haven't read URTH OF THE
NEW SUN, do so; it explains explicitly much of what is only implied
in tBotNS.

dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 01:11:59 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Hard SF and Literary Quality

I thought my message would start some flaming!  I didn't seem to make it
clear enough that I'm specifically talking about the works in the field of
SF that aspire to some kind of 'literary quality', presumably by mainstream
standards.

dykimber@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes: 
> I can't shake the feeling from reading your message that you're swiping
> at straw men, but then I do realize that you're reacting to something.

I guess mostly I'm reacting to allegedly 'literary' SF, probably mostly New
Wave.  An example: People rave about how great Philip K. Dick is.  I read
"Ubik", and despised it.  The reason?

(** SPOILER WARNING ** (though, if you're like me, you'd much prefer to
find this out ahead of time so as not to waste your time reading it...))
After wading through the whole book, the plot dissolving into total
weirdness and non sequiters as you go, on the last page Dick tells you
"It's all a dream".  Actually, in this case, the hallucinations of the
narrator as he lies dying on the floor of an airlock on the moon.
BLEEEEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Please ignore the inflamatory tone of some of this.  I tend to get a bit
carried away when I think about some of this stuff.

Example number two: Harlan Ellison.  Makes Marvin the Paranoid Android look
like Pollyanna.  Technology will turn us into giant garden slugs who have
no mouth and must scream.  Arf.  I've read a fair amount of Ellison, just
because people insist he's so great.  The only two stories I found
tolerable were "Repent Harlequin...", which I liked, and "Pennies Off a
Dead Man's Eyes", which I *really* liked, and wish the story went into some
more detail.

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM writes:
> I'd start with Ben Bova. ... 

I've read a number of his books; Kinsman, Millenium, and Privateer among
them.  I like his work.  I've never heard anyone accuse him of literary
quality before, though.

> Brian Aldiss's HELLICONIA series is a good bet.

I haven't read "Helliconia", but isn't Aldiss kind of on the 'new-wavey'
side?  I think that's why he's on my "don't bother" list.  I know I've read
some stuff of his that I really disliked, but I can't remember what
offhand. Maybe his work is just not to my taste.

> Niven's RINGWORLD.  Unfortunately, nothing else, and especially not the
> execrable RINGWORLD ENGINEERS.

I like *ALL* of Niven.  I have to admit, though, that "Ringworld Engineers"
was far from his best.

> Believe it or not, Gene Wolfe's THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN (consisting of
> THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR, THE SHADOW OF
> THE LICTOR, and THE CASTLE OF THE AUTARCH) fit your description above
> ("optimistic, non- technophobic, with a plot and a likeable, decent
> protagonist") and possibly the highest degree of "literary quality" in
> recent sf.

Really?  Hmm... It's been highly recommended to me by a number of people.
The impression I get from stuff about castles, palace torturers, etc., is
yet another fantasy, and until now I hadn't heard anything to alter that
impression.  It's actually SF?  I'll have to give it a try, I suppose.
Though the idea of a main character who is a professional torturer is a bit
off-putting.

dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
> Try "Left Hand of Darkness", one of [LeGuin's] best (not as pessimistic
> as the title would lead you to believe).

Ah, another good book!  Maybe 'literary quality' isn't an infallible sign
of 'no fun to read', after all!

And soren@reed.UUCP writes:
> When I think about mainstream lit-crit fiction I tend to think more of
> NEW YORKER-stories-about-going-to-Conneticut-to-meet-your-ex-husband (as
> I heard the genre so charmingly characterized).

I love it!  That's why I don't bother with mainstream.  Someone else told
me about a New Yorker story which revolved around someone's broken
shoelace.  Mundania taken to the pathetic extreme.

And finally, peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
> ... "hard SF doesn't need literary quality". Like any story, it should
> have it. But I'll read anything Bob Forward puts out, even if his stories
> make Arthur C. Clarke sound like Taliesin.

I think this hits the nail on the head.  I don't read SF to watch some
writer play with his vocabulary.  I read SF to see interesting ideas (Ideas
I find interesting, anyway) put to work, and for that good ol' sense of
wonder.  If it's well written, then so much the better ...

Back in the 60's (early 70's?) there was a story in Analog which could be
taken a wonderful allegory for the whole debate.  Our Hero was stranded on
a primitive planet with the Evil Villian.  EV was a linguist who had some
familiarity with the Neolithic natives' language.  OH had no talent for
languages at all, but he was a pretty decent engineer.  EV got nowhere,
while OH was able to prosper just by hand gestures and showing what he
could build.  The name of the story was "Something to Say".

And that's really the bottom line -- you have to have something to say.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 16 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 166

Today's Topics:

	 Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs) & The Tomorrow People &
                      Star Trek & Something is Out There (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 18:40:53 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Re: SPACE:1999 & Question.

toad@mondas.ucsb.edu writes:
> Does anyone know what happened to Victor, the slide-rule wielding
> artifical heart implantee scientist who was such a major character during
> the first season and then mysteriously vanished in the second season?

I've heard from other fan organizations that SPACE:1999 was made with a
lower budget during the second season. For instance, the indoor sets of
Moonbase Alpha were smaller, etc. Also, steps were taken to make the series
more "Americanized" and "action-packed".

During the change the actor (Barry Morse, ??) left the show due to contract
negotiation problems.  Don't know any further details.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 18:54:31 GMT
From: anich@rocky.cs.wisc.edu.cs.wisc.edu (Steven Anich)
Subject: Re: SPACE: 1999

>Nope. According to the SPACE:1999 Technical Notebook, and the later
>episode with the psychic who predicted the firestorm, Victor died "between
>seasons" when his spacesuit ruptured on the lunar surface while he was
>installing the laser cannons. His heart was undamaged and later used to
>save somebody else, the psychic's wife.

Nope.  They showed the phycic/firestorm episode last week here in Madison.
The doctor and her assistant worked on making an artificial heart for the
wife from the schematics of a heart designed "in 1986" by a DR.
somebodyorother.  It was definetly not Victor's heart!

steve anich
anich@rocky.CS.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 09:17:56 GMT
From: ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter)
Subject: Re: Tomorrow People

Well, the tomorrow people (snicker) eh? (giggle)

This show started off well (stifled snigger) in the late seventies, but
after the initial two or three seasons (hrrmmph!) when they started
changing the characters about and got a team of fourteen year olds to direct
it, write the scripts and do the special effects, (well, it seems like it)
things began to go rapidly downhill.

Good bits I remember:

A space-ship, made out of old bits that were lying around from unmade
plastic constuction kits, sprayed silver (they were ALL silver), with a
matt line a good half inch all the way around it, wobbling sideways towards
the camera with the string supporting it clearly visible.

Aliens, who were weather balloons (with the knots in the end visible), who
planned to take over the world by disguising themselves as jogging suits.
Neo-nazis rise in England, who are being controlled by Hitler, who is in
fact an alien who has taken human form to (wait for it) take over the
world...

Thanks for writing in.

Lee Carter

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 22:42:22 GMT
From: stewart@vlsi.jpl.nasa.gov
Subject: ST:TNG

   I, too, was surprised to see Yar dispatched in such a summary fashion.
I'd hoped they would give her a better sendoff then as a pointless whim of
some evil insanity.  Or better yet, now that they'd begun to give her a say
in security matters, instead of leaving her behind when the going got
tough, I hoped she'd reconsider and stay.  Hers was certainly the most
interesting of the female characters.

   Now we're left with the doctor, who shows remarkably little stability
and ingenuity for one who has risen to her professional heights, and the
counsellor who is reduced to feeling somthing or continually questioning
everyones emotional health.  Were I her superior I'd reassign her to a
place where she couldn't do much harm.  I wish they'd stabilize and flesh
out the doctor (and do something about the stupid "relationship" with the
captain) and give the Betazoid something to do other than be emotional.
(When I first heard them call her councellor, I thought they meant legal an
thought what a good idea it was to have someone versed in law on a first
contact/exploratory vehicle.)

   Something else I wouldn't mind, is some episodes where exploration and
discovery are the key, and the plot doesn't rest so much on some poor sot's
stupidity and greed.  Give the intelligence some rein not just the muscles.
Get some new races like the Horta in "Devil in the Dark".

PK Stewart

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 18:02:05 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Nothing is Out There

   Was anyone else foolish enough to watch this gem of stupidity? I'm
talking about the NBC "miniseries" (a.k.a. thinly stretched movie),
"Something is Out There". Fortunately, I had a pad and pen handy while I
was watching last night, and I've been jotting down notes on the worst of
it. I'll try to post tomorrow, after the movie, and my list, have been
completed. I wonder how much they paid the critics to give it good reviews?

   Good thing I got "The Bourne Identity" on tape!

Pete Granger
{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 13:14:50 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Ripping Apart "Something is Out There"

   Well, I finished watching "Something is Out There" last night.  Nothing
more than an abysmally bad rip-off of "Aliens" and "The Hidden", if you ask
me. The only thing that I liked was the interaction between the cop and the
cute alien. Unfortunately, this looked like a series pilot, disturbingly
reminiscent of "V". Anyway, here is a list of gripes about the film, in
hopes that someday, someone will make a movie and remember what I don't
like :-).

1. Simple math error. The genius alien says it's about 5 kilometers to the
shuttle. When asked for it in miles, she says it's 2 miles. Last I knew, 5
kilometers was 3.1 miles.

2. When she was abandoning the ship, we heard the alarm system say "4
minutes to decompression, 10 minutes to turbo-nuclear purge." Okay, what
the heck is a turbo-nuclear purge? Maybe it was thermo-nuclear, but it's
still stupid. And why was she so worried about decompression once she was
in the shuttle? Doesn't that just mean the ship is losing atmosphere?
Apparently not, since during decompression there were explosions all over
the place. If the ship blows up when it decompresses, why warn people about
the foobar-nuclear purge, anyway?

3. The alien is "a xenomorph - a shape-changer". Gee, sounds familiar,
doesn't it? Of course, as discussed here a while back, a "xenomorph" is a
new or unknown form. I don't know what the proper term would be (weak on my
etymology sometimes), but I would have been more convinced by "polymorph",
"multimorph", "transmorph", or if they really wanted to get cute,
"deltamorph" (after all, delta is often used to show change, although this
could also mean it's triangle-shaped).

4. The alien claims that she's fluent in English. In fact, she's so good,
she uses expressions like "Why on earth...", and yet she's never heard of
pajamas, which is a fairly common word.

5. Even more ridiculous, she claims to be human, but doesn't understand sex
as we know it. Come on, even if they use strictly "in vitro" birth
techniques, chances are they still have reproductive organs, and *not* in
their hands. Besides, even if they don't have earth-style sex themselves,
they should have learned about it by watching all that earth television.

6. Why does the creature, which previously moved at incredibly high speeds
and killed in seconds, stand there and bellow when it finds them in the
sewers? Oh, right, it wanted to "take her mind". And later, at the labs,
when it was chasing them, they managed to outrun it? Sure.

7. And that detector gadget she had. Why did she have to wave her hand over
it the whole time? Granted, such a design might be possible, but it's also
stupid. I mean, if I was using a detector like that to track a dangerous
creature, I'd want a weapon in the other hand.

8. How did the creature dispose of enough bulk to fit inside a human, and
then regain it at will? Right, it curled up real small. I mean, suspension
of disbelief is one thing, but that's ridiculous.

9. When it broke into the apartment, why didn't it destroy the pulse rifle?
It was obviously intelligent.

10. When it was inside the male scientist's body, it seemed to have trouble
speaking, yet a few minutes (maybe a couple hours?) later, it was using the
woman's body completely naturally.

11. How did the stun pistol blow up the chemical/fuel tanks? Okay, maybe it
had different settings, like phasers on Star Trek. But how did Jack know
which one to use?

12. How could something as big as the alien prison ship ("as big as a
battleship") hang around in orbit without drawing a lot of attention? In
fact, what were they doing over earth in the first place? Prison ships
wouldn't usually be doing research on other planets.

13. If the ship decompressed (at least in the normal sense), why were all
the bodies intact when they went back up?

14. Why crash the ship into the ocean? Why not the moon? Why not send it
into the sun, or deep space (well, maybe the creatures could have taken it
over in that much time).

15. The ship sinks like a rock, but the two humans get out with no oxygen
or decompression. And if they were so confident they could get out alive,
why didn't they think the creatures would?

16. If something the size of a battleship dropped into the ocean from
orbit, wouldn't it make some waves? The water looked pretty calm when they
broke the surface.

17. Lastly, why would the normal ships be heading directly toward the crash
site? I would think that if a UFO the size of a battleship suddenly fell
out of orbit, the idea would be to proceed with caution, not full speed
ahead.

   Well, call me a nitpicker, but these were just to much to overlook,
either technically or in terms of bad plotting. Did anyone else make the
mistake of watching this movie? What did you think?

Pete Granger
{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 20:24:08 GMT
From: emiller@bbn.com (ethan miller)
Subject: Re: Ripping Apart "Something is Out There"

A few (more) comments on _Something is Out There_.

>Unfortunately, this looked like a series pilot, disturbingly reminiscent
>of "V".

Of course it was.  I didn't see the alien die--did you?  If this thing can
survive incredible heat and vacuum (no pressure suit on this alien in the
decompressed ship), is a little water going to kill it?

>2. When she was abandoning the ship, we heard the alarm system say "4
>minutes to decompression, 10 minutes to turbo-nuclear purge." Okay, what
>the heck is a turbo-nuclear purge? Maybe it was thermo-nuclear, but it's
>still stupid. And why was she so worried about decompression once she was
>in the shuttle? Doesn't that just mean the ship is losing atmosphere?
>Apparently not, since during decompression there were explosions all over
>the place. If the ship blows up when it decompresses, why warn people
>about the foobar-nuclear purge, anyway?

Actually, explosive decompression could have caused lots of problems by
stressing metals and creating open containers that shouldn't have been
open.  But if there were so many explosions on the ship, how come it was in
such good shape when they returned?  Remember, the ship seemed to be
burning out of control on the inside when she left.

>9. When it broke into the apartment, why didn't it destroy the pulse
>rifle? It was obviously intelligent.

Definitely.  Far more intelligent than the writers.

>13. If the ship decompressed (at least in the normal sense), why were
>all the bodies intact when they went back up?

See above about the ship too.

>14. Why crash the ship into the ocean? Why not the moon? Why not send it
>into the sun, or deep space (well, maybe the creatures could have taken it
>over in that much time).

The sun would have been the only safe choice.  Remember, this thing isn't
bothered by vacuum.  If you crash on the moon, it may get away.

Other points:
1. Granted, it made for a funny line, but why was there no self-destruct
   on a prison barge?  Normal ships might not need one, but I'd want a
   self-destruct on a vessel that could be taken over by hostile forces.

2. How did they lock themselves into the beast's former holding cell to
   get away from it?  Very few cells have locks that allow the prisoners to
   stay inside them.

3. Why didn't the alien just take over their minds at the end, the same way
   it took over the guy's mind at the beginning?  Really easy way to make
   sure your prey doesn't escape.

4. That medical lab they went into was NOT classified.  You can't get into
   a classified area without a very good reason and an escort.  Besides,
   would YOU be suspicious if an unfamiliar person waved some detection-type
   object around your office?  I know I would.

5. (A REAL BIG QUESTION!!!)  Why are these aliens genetically human?  Where
   do they come from?  Actually, I suppose they're genetically human so the
   two of them can sleep together when the series comes out.

6. (REAL BIG QUESTION II!!)  If this alien is so incredibly dangerous, why
   is it on a prison ship where it can escape?  I'd put it on some airless
   moon somewhere if I didn't want to kill it (for morality reasons).  I
   certainly wouldn't make space travel available to it.

7. How come no one tracked the shuttle's landing?  If it were considered
   a meteorite, it would be a very big one and there would be scientists
   coming after it.  If it was a powered landing, there would be armed
   forces there (the Russians are coming!).  And how about the alien's
   shuttle?  Someone should have tracked it, too.

Any more inconsistencies that Pete and I missed?

Ethan Miller
(617) 873-3091 
BBN Laboratories
ARPAnet : emiller@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 20:34:32 GMT
From: wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu (Bill Wyatt)
Subject: Re: Ripping Apart "Something is Out There"

> Did anyone else make the mistake of watching this movie? What did you
> think?

You're not alone. I thought the first third or so had potential, but it
went downhill fast. A few more comments:

>[...]
> 11. How did the stun pistol blow up the chemical/fuel tanks? Okay, maybe
> it had different settings, like phasers on Star Trek. But how did Jack
> know which one to use?

Why would a medical facility store such a quantity of explosives, and also
so close that an explosion would wipe out the complex?

> [...]
> 13. If the ship decompressed (at least in the normal sense), why were all
> the bodies intact when they went back up?

Not to mention that sabotaging the 2nd shuttle and fight caused billowing
flames, smoke, and other such evidences of total vacuum...

> 14. Why crash the ship into the ocean? Why not the moon? Why not send it
> into the sun, or deep space (well, maybe the creatures could have taken
> it over in that much time).

I just love the way an explosion on board an orbiting space ship causes it
to immediately crash into the planet below (see also Star Trek III), as if
the space ships are somehow flying up there!

> 15. The ship sinks like a rock, but the two humans get out with no oxygen
> or decompression. And if they were so confident they could get out alive,
> why didn't they think the creatures would?  not full speed ahead.

Well, they were in environment suits with helmets, but those somehow
disappeared on the way to the surface!

Bill Wyatt
UUCP:  {husc6,ihnp4,cmcl2,mit-eddie}!harvard!cfa!wyatt
ARPA:  wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu
       wyatt%cfa@harvard.harvard.edu
BITNET:  wyatt@cfa2

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 17:51:52 GMT
From: ericg@sco.com (Mwa ha ha)
Subject: Re: Nothing is Out There

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) wrote:
>>Some comments on "Something is out there" TV movie which aired on
>>NBC recently...
>
>feel it had some redeeming qualities, however...  The special effects
>were nice, and the ... well...  I can't remember any of the other
>good points right now...  I'm sure there were some...  The special
>effects were nice....

Actually, I thought the first half was on the very good to excellent with
respect to TV movies.  It had an intriging setup (assuming that you can
tolerate age-old horror devices.  i.e. "there is something very nasty down
there, lets the two of us tell nobody and check it out ourselves.") and
handled the suspense with a least a little bit of delicacy.

The second episode was trash.  The science/technical errors became
overwhelmingly distracting (even beyond spaceships going "whoosh"), the
action and pacing turned into a direct ripoff of _Alien_ and the resolution
was thoroughly annoying (the horribly non-destructible monster can't
survive the ship crashing into the ocean, but we can since we are wearing
space suits).  Also we were exposed to the standard "let's leave our
options open, maybe we can make a series out of it" writing now to be found
in every mini-series.

Eric Griswold
ericg@sco.com

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 16 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 167

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (11 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 20:26:45 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein's society

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:
> Now how can you say that Heinlein didn't at least highly approve of the
> Free Luna society?  Elements and major chunks of it and its philosophy
> show up almost continually in Heinlein's later works.

Elements, yes, but I wouldn't say "major chunks".  Further, we find that
Heinlein has Free Luna evolving into a dystopia, (visible even at the end
of MiaHM, where Mannie considers leaving the moon in disgust), and
certainly the Professor was never anything other than cynical about
humanity in general and the workings of Free Luna in particular.

I'm not convinced that Heinlein thinks there *IS* such a thing as an ideal
society.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 20:40:32 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> 1) [...women...] were *objects* of value and treated as such.
> 2) Strict order [...and "polite" behavior was...]
>    due to terror-tactics vigilante "justice." The
>    trains may run on time, but this does not mean the society is utopian.

Interestingly enough, these are two of the things that convince me that
Heinlein was, indeed, NOT holding "Free Luna" up as an example of peace,
tranquility, and the utopian way.  What convinces me that Heinlein thinks
so (despite Mannie's defense of the system) was the behavior of the
"stylagi debs" (probable misspelling), the operation of the court (where
saving a man's life was a matter of chance), and on and on through other
examples.

I'll make the point again.  What the characters say, or even do, is no
indication of what an author thinks.  Especially when the events portrayed
"prove" the characters naive or mistaken.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 06:00:18 GMT
From: steveg@hub.ucsb.edu (STeve GReenland)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>Corruption?  Yes, see below.
>
>The problem that would arise in Heinlein "polite" societies [the armed
>society of Beyond This Horizon, the anarchism of The Moon is a Harsh
>Mistress] is that it leaves lots of scope for bullies to operate.

Bullies only operate when the rest of the "society" let them.  In several
different public schools I have attended, bullies operated until a large
enough group of other students (not that many are necessary) refused to be
bullied.  This sometimes involved a little pain for some of us, but was
worthwhile in the long run.  The trouble is that most of the time, not
enough people are willing to suffer personally for the long term good of
the society.  This explains why three hoodlums can hold 300 adults hostage
on a jet.

steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
...!ucbvax!hub!steveg

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 15:54:57 GMT
From: hoqax!bicker@moss.att.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

I am reading this novel now and am quite happy, so far.  I had read
Stranger in a Strange Land and got a bit turned off by the frivolous ending
and then went through the first halves of a few Heinlein books, ditching
each one because of his habit of writing what in my opinion was bad
fiction.  So far Job is great (sure he's a little racy, but I like that.)
I hope I won't be disappointed.

Brian Kohn
AT&T Bell Laboratories Semantic Engineering Center
(201) 949-5850
...ihnp4!hoqam!bicker

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 21:57:24 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>>throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>>Just because *Mannie* says Free Luna is great is little or no indication
>>that Heinlein thinks it is.
> True, but if Heinlein writes vigilantist propaganda it may not count all
> that much in his favor that he doesn't really believe in it.

There are wheels withing wheels (or cans of worms within cans of worms)
opened up here.  It may not "count in his favor" that he doesn't believe.
But then again, in that case, surely it should not "count against him" if
he doesn't intend the *reader* to believe.  That is, if the propaganda
aspect of the book is unintended, or intended to ends other than that the
reader perceives, is the author culpable?  Is Twain evil (or perhaps no
evil, but whatever-your-favorite-perjorative....  fascist, sexist, racist,
etc) because some readers think Huck Finn is racist propaganda?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 21:48:51 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> In all the Heinlein novels I have ever read, the men are in charge.

Far be it from me to condone Heinlein's work here: his characters' cheerful
acceptance of social Darwinistic drek to justify all manner of
stomach-churning nonsense about the roles of women in society and the
importance of advancing "the race"... well, it sometimes makes me want to
puke.

But things are by no means so one-sided as Kevin seems to think.  The above
seems to indicate that Kevin hasn't read "Glory Road", or "The Number of
the Beast", or "Gulf" (granted, that last isn't a novel, and the "woman in
charge" wasn't the good guy, but still), and other examples.

Or, just possibly, there is some justification for concluding that "Star"
wasn't really leading... uh... whosiz, the male dupe, you know...  around
by the nose in "Glory Road", or that Hilda wasn't really in charge in
TNotB.  Such a line of reasoning would probably be interesting... but I
doubt it would be persuasive.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 21:58:17 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein.. (what an author believes)

rwl@uvacs.CS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Ray Lubinsky) writes:
> Let's not forget that an author does not only have the words of his
> characters at his disposal to convey his ideals.  The outcome of the
> plot, the degree of editorialization during expository sections, all set
> the stage for the author's beliefs.  In later Heinlein novels (let's say
> "Starship Troopers"), the characters with which we are supposed to
> identify express beliefs that, from the evidence of the world as it is
> shown to us, cannot be anything but correct and therefore held forth for
> our edification and approval.

This seems to be saying "There is more than the characters expressed
beliefs to consider, therefore I feel free to take the character's
expressed beleifs as Heinlein's intended message."  This is simply brushing
aside and ignoring cases where a character's belief turns out to be WRONG
in the context of the story.  This happens more frequently than one might
suppose from the above quoted section.  Continuing with MiaHM as an example
Mannie is shown to be naive, the Prof too condescendingly cynical, and
people in general more worthwhile than the speechifying of the main
characters leads one to believe.  The revolution doesn't turn out quite as
they plan.  I think the events portrayed are saying plain as day: Free Luna
is NOT a utopia, despite what all these Loonies think.

It is, I claim, FREQUENT in Heinlein's work that the characters state some
extreme (and oversimplified) position, and the events warn us that things
aren't as simple as the character may have thought.

> On the basis of this writing style alone I can conclude that Heinlein
> says what he means.

Maybe so.  But on the same basis, I conclude that his characters don't.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 15:40:05 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: New York Times Obit. for Robert A. Heinlein

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>It is sad, but no more unexpected than M. Valentine Smith's death was to
>that character.

But I say to you that for many of us Heinlein was Lazarus, the man who "can
never die."  This isn't simple naivete on our part; it's almost more a sort
of religious faith.  (No, I'm not one of those damn "Church-of-All-Worlds"
neopagan neonazis.)

Then, too, for those of us who've been active in the SF community for some
years, RAH was not merely a reknowned writer, but a beloved father figure.

Finally, you betray an utter lack of taste or humanity when you write
something like:

>for me he died when he wrote the Number of the Beast, and I am bothered
>that this once great writer will be partially remembered for the group of
>books he wrote this decade that might not have been published without his
>name...

I will not take the time to explain why THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST is a fine
book (though flawed by Heinlein's eternal problems with female point-of-
view).  Suffice it to say that it was designed to irritate boobs who want
SF to be just like it was when they were happy little children.

But I will point out, with all the force of righteousness and good taste on
my side, that choosing the moment of a writer's death -- *any* writer's
death, let alone one as important and as maligned as Heinlein -- to make a
comment of this sort is simply rude, arrogant, self-serving and crass
behavior.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 07:42:23 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Heinlein

What can you say? He was one of the greats. Right up there with Clarke and
Asimov, at least in sales. And while his later books often meandered, one
thing they were not: the sort of sterile, crash commercialism being churned
out from the keyboards of Asimov et. al. nowadays. The recent Asimovian
novels remind me of the worst of pulp sci-fi without any of the interesting
parts of the pulp tradition -- plot-driven with poor characterization, but
with no noticable themes or idea. Whatever your opinion of Heinlein's
recent novels, you can't accuse them of being that kind of safe, sanitized,
crassly commercialistic pap.  The yearly Heinlein diatribes on the net are
proof enough that Heinlein's works are plenty controversial. While I may
not agree with everything he wrote, I can and do respect someone who says
what he believes, and isn't afraid to raise controversy.
     So here's one goodbye to Robert Heinlein. We need more like him.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
{cuae2,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 17:04:59 GMT
From: fenwick@garth.uucp (Stephen Fenwick)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>A military takeover is a classic extremist tactic used by many radical
>groups throughout history -- many times far-right radical groups -- and is
>the method used *in the book*.

Interesting point.  In his short story "The Long Watch", the protagonist
prevents a (right-wing, extremist) military organization from taking over.
So, is he in favor of this tactic, or against?

Steve Fenwick
Intergraph APD
2400 Geng Road
Palo Alto, California 
(415) 852-2325
...!pyramid!garth!fenwick

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 17:28:18 GMT
From: wrd@tekigm2.tek.com (Bill Dippert)
Subject: RAH, In Memoriam

The following is what I hope is the final definitive listing of all of
Robert Anson Heinlein's works, may he rest in peace.  Read, enjoy, I did.
But then, I read them for enjoyment, not for social criticism, philosophy,
neo-fascism or any of the other things that he has been accused of.  Not
that he might not have been guilty, but again -- read them to enjoy, forget
the "messages"!

The History of the Future:

   Lifeline (notes 12,3)
   "Let There be Light" (note 4)
   (Word Edgewise)
   The Roads Must Roll (notes 2,4)
   Blowups Happen (notes 1,2,3)
   The Man Who Sold the Moon (notes 2,4)
   Delilah & the Space Rigger (notes 2,7)
   Space Jockey (notes 2,7)
   Requiem (notes 2,4)
   The Long Watch (notes 2,7)
   Gentlemen, Be Seated (notes 2,7)
   The Black Pits of Luna (notes 2,7)
   "It's Great to be Back!" (notes 2,7)
   "--We Also Walk Dogs" (notes 2,7)
   Searchlight (note 2)
   Ordeal in Space (notes 2,7)
   The Green Hills of Earth (notes)2,7)
   (Fire Down Below)
   Logic of Empire (notes 2,7)
   (The Sound of His Wings)
   (Eclipse)
   (The Stone Pillow)
   The Menace From Earth (note 2)
   If This Goes On--- (notes 2,5)
   Coventry (notes 2,5)
   Misfit (notes 2,5)
   Universe (Prologue only)
   Methuselah's Children (notes 2) [Lazarus Long]
   Universe (note 6)
   Commonsense (note 6)
   (Da Capo)

The above is from the chart which appeared in many of the earlier Heinlein
Future of the World books.

Note 1:  included in "Expanded Universe"
Note 2:  included in "The Past Through Tomorrow"
Note 3:  included in "The Worlds of R.A. Heinlein"
Note 4:  included in "The Man Who Sold the Moon" (aka
         Future History, Volume 1:  The Man Who Sold the Moon)
Note 5:  included in "Revolt in 2100" (aka Future
         History, Volume 3:  Revolt in 2100)
Note 6:  included in "Orphans of the Sky"
Note.7:  included in "The Green Hills of Earth" (aka
         Future History, Volume 2:  The Green Hills of Earth)

For more information on the stories in parenthesis see "Revolt in 2100"
chapter entitled "Concerning Stories Never Written: Postscript"

Additional titles for History of the Future:

   The Cat Who Walks Through Walls [Lazarus Long]
   The Number of the Beast [Lazarus Long]
   The Past Through Tomorrow
      Life-Line
      The Roads Must Roll
      Blowups Happen (1946 version 1)
      The Man Who Sold the Moon
      Delilah and the Space-Rigger
      Space Jockey
      Requiem
      The Long Watch
      Gentlemen, Be Seated
      The Black Pits of Luna
      "It's Great to Be Back!"
      "--We Also Walk Dogs"
      Searchlight
      Ordeal in Space
      The Green Hills of Earth
      Logic of Empire
      The Menace From Earth
      "If This Goes On--"
      Coventry
      Misfit
      Methuselah's Children [Lazarus Long]
   Time Enough For Love [Lazarus Long]

Total_List_of_Heinlein_Books:

  Assignment in Eternity
  Between Planets
  Beyond This Horizon
  The Cat Who Walks Thro gh Walls
  Citizen of the Galaxy
  The Day After Tomorrow (aka Sixth Column)
  The Door Into Summer
  Double Star
  Expanded Universe
     Life-Line
     Successful Operation
     Blowups Happen (1940 version)
     Solution Unsatisfactory
     The Last Days of the United States
     How To Be a Survivor
     Pie from the Sky
     They Do It With Mirrors
     Free Men
     No Bands Playing, No Flags Flying--
     A Bathroom of Her Own
     On the Slopes of Vesuvius
     Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon
     Pandora's Box
     Where To?
     Cliff and the Calories
     Ray Guns and Rocket Ships
     The Third Millennium Opens
     Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry?
     "Pravda" Means "Truth"
     Insido Intourist
     Searchlight
     The Pragmatics of Patriotism
     Paul Dirac, Antimatter, and You
     Larger Than Life
     Spinoff
     The Happy Days Ahead
   Farmer in the Sky
   Farnham's Freehold
   Friday
   Glory Road
   The Green Hills of Earth
   Have Space Suit, Will Travel
   Heil!
   I Will Fear No Evil
   Job:  A Comedy of Justice
   The Man Who Sold the Moon
   The Menace From Earth
   Methuselah's Children
   The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
   The Number of the Beast
   Orphans of the Sky
      Universe
      Common Sense
   The Past Through Tomorrow
   Podkayne of Mars
   The Puppet Masters
   Red Planet
   Revolt in 2100
   Rocket Ship Galileo
   The Rolling Stenes
   To Sail Beyond The Sunset
   6 x H (aka The Unpleasant Profession of
     Jonathan Hoag)
   Space Cadet
   The Star Beast
   Starman Jones
   Starship Troopers
   Stranger in a Strange Land
   Time Enough For Love
   Time for the Stars
   Tomorrow the Stars (edited by R.A.H.)
   Tunnel in the Sky
   Universe (original contains Universe only)
   Waldo:  Genius in Orbit (aka Waldo and Magic, Inc.)
   The Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein
      Pandora's Box
      Free Man
      Blowups Happen (1946 version 2)
      Searchlight
      Life-Line
      Solution Unsatisfactory

Robert A. Heinlein died on 9 May 1988.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 17 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 168

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Asimov & Baum & Chambers &
                            Clarke (8 msgs) & Feist &
                            Kurtz & 70s SF Subgenre &
                            Vampires

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 13:26:31 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Major Kano)
Subject: Foundation And Earth (Waste of time, Asimov !)

   Hi there everyone. 
 
   I've just finished reading Asimov's "Foundation And Earth" and was *
VERY * disappointed. Asimov seems to have lost the "feel" of the original
books, and turned the Foundation idea right on it's head.

   I thought that he might have corrected his mistake of "Foundation's
Edge" and revoked galaxia, but no such luck. As an applied-maths concept,
psychohistory is very interesting. As a conscious robot-guided mechanism,
it sucks.
 
   As for Pelorat & Bliss making love, I don't think * I * would want
15x10^9 people sharing my experiences in that situation.

   Is there anyone else out there who also thinks "galaxia" is too much
like communism, lack of individuality stinks, etc. ?

    Regards,

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 20:52:20 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@mtune.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: Choose your own Universe

> Of course!  I've known the answer was Oz since this thread was started.
> I didn't want to be the first to mention it, though - you see, Oz is
> visited by the protagonists of "Number of the Beast" and I didn't want to
> get caught in the Heinlein flame wars.  ;-)
> 
> I'd love to live in the Emerald City.  They could teach us a lot about
> software.  Wouldn't you LOVE to take a look at Tik-Tok's source code?
> ("BMO - Branch on Mainspring Out?").

Wow another Oz person!  Actually I was afraid I was going to get flamed
just for mentioning Oz in the first place.  Source code for Tik Tok?  Neat
idea!  I guess I assumed his "think" would be completely machinery.  The
having to wind it up probably did that.  I have a question for Mr.  Smith
or anyone else for that matter.  Where do you think Oz is?  I have only
read up to book 5 and have a few theories but would like to hear others.  I
am looking forward to book 6, but have to stop to learn UNIX. (I am new to
all this).

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 16:32:53 GMT
From: tneff@dasys1.uucp (Tom Neff)
Subject: Re: King in Yellow (author?)

Excuse me, but what about the Raymond Chandler short story "The King in
Yellow"??  I have seen two responses to the original posting that talk
about Robert Chambers writing something with the same name.  And here I
thought all Robert could do was wield a vicious pair of panties...

Tom Neff
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tneff

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 01:01:35 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>2010 points out some positive possibilities, but humans are still
>earthbound, overcrowded, and international relations haven't improved
>much. I love Clarke's writing, but it's rather depressing.

_Rendezvous With Rama_ has a pretty positive look on society, in my
opinion.  Humans are more-or-less earthbound, but pretty peaceful from what
I remember.  It might be that overcrowding had not yet become a problem
again after the meteor hit, though.

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 16:13:41 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

sheridan@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk writes:
>Any of Clarke's up-beat worlds.

  Does he have very many of these? I've read 2010, The Songs of Distant
Earth, Childhood's End, the short story collection The Sentinel, and the
short story The Nine Billion Names of God. Only "Distant Earth" seemed
upbeat to me, and that wasn't all that cheery, either, when you figure that
the only humans left are scattered across the galaxy in isolated pockets.
2010 points out some positive possibilities, but humans are still
earthbound, overcrowded, and international relations haven't improved much.
I love Clarke's writing, but it's rather depressing.

Pete Granger
{decvax,ulowell,ima}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 15:43:01 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: The City and the stars. (Was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>To give an answer anyway: 1 billion years in the past of The City and the
>Stars by Arthur C. Clarke (second edition: Against the Fall of the Night),
>during the golden age. Sounds like everyone had it pretty good, so that'd
>be relatively safe.

But there was something about to happen which devastated the entire galaxy,
and caused at least part of the remnants of the human race to hide
themselves away and pretend the outside word didn't exist for millenia.

A.C. Clarke never says exactly what happened, but it can't have been
pleasant. Anyone got any speculation?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 15:19:43 GMT
From: okie@ihlpf.att.com (Cobb)
Subject: Re: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
> Does he have very many of these? I've read 2010, The Songs of Distant
> ...
> improved much. I love Clarke's writing, but it's rather depressing.

I didn't notice "Imperial Earth" on your list.  It's not depressing, and
quite enjoyable if you like "travelogue" style stories -- where (as here)
the young boy/girl/man/woman sets off to see new lands and fulfill a
goal/purpose/etc.  I think you'd like it, and it's certainly an interesting
universe to choose.

Another "upbeat" Clarke novel is "Rendevous with Rama," a different kind of
"first contact" novel involving an alien artifact/spaceship.  Set in a
universe similar to "Imperial Earth," with fascinating accounts of
exploration of an alien artifact... I think you'd like this, too.

BKCobb
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihlpf!okie

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 09:47:19 GMT
From: sqkeith@csvax.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

madd@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Jim Frost) writes:
> granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>>2010 points out some positive possibilities, but humans are still
>>earthbound, overcrowded, and international relations haven't improved
>>much. I love Clarke's writing, but it's rather depressing.
>
> _Rendezvous With Rama_ has a pretty positive look on society, in my
> opinion.  Humans are more-or-less earthbound, but pretty peaceful from
> what I remember.  It might be that overcrowding had not yet become a
> problem again after the meteor hit, though.

Depressing is much too nice a way of putting it especially after reading
'The Songs of Distant Earth'. I think that the 'Fountains of Paradise' was
much better and offered hope for mankind both in the face of another ice
age and in communication with Starglider - I particularly liked Occam's
Razor applied to the question "Is there a God?". Obviously not - according
to Starglider.

I enjoyed reading 'Rendezvous with Rama'. As for "pretty positive look on
society", Clarke shows continuing human callousness in the disposition of
the Simps (super chimps).

Keith Halewood
Janet:    sqkeith@csvax.liv.ac.uk                           
UUCP:     ...!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!sqkeith                
Internet: sqkeith%csvax.liv.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu           

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 11:59:07 GMT
From: flash@ee.inference.ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>sheridan@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk writes:
>>Any of Clarke's up-beat worlds.
>  Does he have very many of these? I've read 2010, The Songs of Distant
>Earth, Childhood's End, the short story collection The Sentinel, and the
>short story The Nine Billion Names of God. Only "Distant Earth" seemed ...
>I love Clarke's writing, but it's rather depressing.

I was probably thinking of _Imperial Earth_ & _Fountains of Paradise_.  My
fuzzy impression is that unless Clarke has some reason for making a world
nasty in some respect, it's the way I'd like it: humane, peaceful,
egalitarian, and advanced.  Even the books you mention have nice
backgrounds*; it's the foreground that's depressing, and the question was
about worlds as a whole.

*Until they get blown up, of course.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 22:56:24 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: The City and the stars. 

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
> doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>>To give an answer anyway: 1 billion years in the past of The City and the
>>Stars by Arthur C. Clarke (second edition: Against the Fall of the
>>Night), during the golden age. Sounds like everyone had it pretty good,
>>so that'd be relatively safe.
>
> But there was something about to happen which devastated the entire
> galaxy, and caused at least part of the remnants of the human race to
> hide themselves away and pretend the outside word didn't exist for
> millenia.
>
> A.C. Clarke never says exactly what happened, but it can't have been
> pleasent. Anyone got any speculation? 

You don't remember the book too well, I fear.  At the end we find out that
there was nothing devastating going to happen.  Mankind went out into
space, found their were other, more advanced, species and went home to
hide!  Over time they made up the stories of impending doom and great war.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 10:06:49 GMT
From: pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell)
Subject: Re: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

madd@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Jim Frost):
>granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>>2010 points out some positive possibilities, but humans are still
>>earthbound, overcrowded, and international relations haven't improved
>>much. I love Clarke's writing, but it's rather depressing.
>
>_Rendezvous With Rama_ has a pretty positive look on society, in my
>opinion.  Humans are more-or-less earthbound, but pretty peaceful from
>what I remember.  It might be that overcrowding had not yet become a
>problem again after the meteor hit, though.

I re-read R with R this last weekend. 

Human society is fairly peaceful. Life on Earth is becoming somewhat
bureaucratic. The population is near 10^9 but this is due more to effective
birth control than to the meteor strike which Clarke says killed 600000 in
N. Italy.

The cloud on the horizon is the Hermians who are gaining economic
ascendancy over the rest of the Solar System due to a virtual monopoly on
metals and energy and a tough Spartan lifestyle. They tried to destroy Rama
with a gigaton weapon.

I can foresee that this universe will be in trouble soon either because of
the Hermians or further Ramas.

Peter Kendell
pete@tcom.stc.co.uk
...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete

------------------------------

Date: 05/13/88 15:50:52 EST
From: #GGGALA@wmmvs.bitnet
Subject: Raymond Feist

Concerning friendly dragons, I read that somebody recommends Raymond E.
Feist's Riftwar Saga (Magician, Silverthorn, A Darkness at Sethanon and
(unrelated but in the same worlds) Daughter of the Empire).  I strongly
recommend them too. These books are composing the most complete, most
believable, most interessing Heroic-Fantasy worlds (yeah, plural, two
worlds in fact) since Tolkien. The writing is much, much better than the
DragonLance series (who needs a writer definitely: the story is quite good,
the characters are deep, but something is missing.  Probably there is a
discrepancy between the writers' skill - which is barely fair - and the
story and characters, which are a team work).  I think that anybody
searching desperately for a new Tolkien should read the Feist's books. And
yes, they contains (among other special effects) friendly dragons,
especially Magician and A Darkness at Sethanon.

F. MORA
College of William & Mary
Dept. of Computer Science

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 20:36:32 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Choose your universe!

TPB1@lehigh.BITNET ("Tom Browne") writes:
>2)  "Gwynnedd" by Katherine Kurtz in the time before the Deryin
>    Interregnum (Deryni were more or less equals with special powers)
>    and were tolerated, or at the latest time (Kelson's reign) where
>    while no longer being purged, they are reluctantly tolerated
>    except by the church.

  I've been wondering if anyone would really want to try this one. Much as
I enjoy Kurtz's Deryni books, I sure wouldn't want to live there.  Even in
the most benevolent of governments (the Haldanes', we presume), the vast
majority are uneducated, fearful serfs, with no chance to better
themselves. Even among the nobility and the clergy, life is no bed of
roses. A life expectancy of 45 years, drafty castles, and the whole works,
just don't appeal to me.

Pete Granger
{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 16:21:07 GMT
From: evans-ron@cs.yale.edu (Ron Warren Evans)
Subject: A 70s subgenre of SF

During the Seventies a number of books which might all be considered to
come from the same subgenre were published. These books were science
fiction disguised as fact. A typical example might be a book which
purported to be a guide for tourists in the solar system of the future.
Another might be an examination of the cultures of different kinds of
aliens. (Note that I'm not talking about BARLOWE'S GUIDE TO
EXTRATERRESTRIALS here. The sort of book I am talking about is
self-consistent. Books like the STARFLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL form a
subsubgenre, the STAR TREK version of this sort of book.)

If any of you out there own any of these books, or have good memories of
them, please post regarding them, or reply to me.  I not only have a
nostalgic fondness for them, but I am also technically interested in their
writing style.  This summer I will be at a course writing (collaboratively)
a hypertextual fiction which may bear some resemblance to the sort of book
I am talking about. I am particularly interested in one which had a black
and red cover and spoke inside about several planets, one a resort, another
a colony planet which the colonists discovered was inhabited by tripedal
aliens with three eyes. I used to own this book, but can no longer remember
its title. As a further clue, most of the drawings inside were
drafting-style.

I propose a name for this sort of book, and for books like the NECRONOMICON
and other objects which try to pass themselves off as extrusions from
another universe: GOBSTOPPERS. Etymology: in the 70s (again!) one
manufacturer licensed the rights to the Willy Wonka books, and produced a
line of candies with the same names as those in the books. One was the
Everlasting Gobstopper. It did not last forever, and it tasted pretty bad,
but it DID change colours.

Enough of this. Dialogue, dialogue!

Ron Warren Evans
evans-ron@yale.edu
evaronw@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 00:35:58 GMT
From: mok@pawl8.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag)
Subject: Re: PRISONERS OF THE NIGHT Review by Andy Steinberg

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>     If you're looking for an alternative to the mainstream vampire
>literature, then Prisoners Of The Night is it. Put out by Alayne Gelfand
>of MKASHEF Enterprises, Prisoners Of The Night portrays vampires as so
>much more than merely Satanic, blood-sucking monsters. Serious attempts
>are made to delve into the "lives" of our mysterious, often misunderstood
>friends.

   There are a few other books worth mentioning which attempt a "realistic"
depiction of vampires and their lives. Probably the best known are
Saberhagen's Dracula Books (_The_Dracula_Tape_, _Old_Friend_of_The_Family_,
_The_Holme's _Dracula_File_, _Thorn_ and _Dominion). These books start with
a retelling Of Bram Stoker's famous work from the Count's point of view in
_The_Dracula _Tape_ and then continue to tell original stories involving
Saberhagen's version of Dracula in a the other books. They are well done
and handle Dracula and the other vampires as people rather than "Satanic,
blood-sucking monsters."

   Another excellent series involving vampires (although less well known)
are a pair of books (hopefully to be more) by Anne Rice. They are called
_Interview_with_the_Vampire_ and _The_Vampire_Lestat_. Most definetly DO
look these two books up. They're supposed to be read in the order I listed,
but I found that they read better in the reverse order, so to each his own.
I'd love to tell you what they're about, but I'm so leary of spoiling the
story that I'm not going to tell you anything. You'll have to track them
down for yourself if you want to know.

mok@life.pawl.rpi.edu 

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 17 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 169

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 14:03:29 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: New York Times Obit. for Robert A. Heinlein

>So while he is, without doubt, the most significant figure in the history
>of SF to die, including John Cambell, his death does not hold the shock,
>surprise or momentous significance it might have.  It is sad, but no more
>unexpected than M. Valentine Smith's death was to that character.

Speak for yourself.  While I didn't agree with many of RAH's opinions, and
no longer really considered him a "great writer" in a literary sense, I was
surprised at my own reaction and sense of loss and sadness at his passing.
He was an important influence on my boyhood and I suspect, that of many
other people.  While I saw him only once, I can tell from his writing what
he must have been like, rough, opinionated, but warm, a genuine human
being, and no smooth-faced hypocrite.  I felt the same way I felt when I
heard Tolkien died.  This is a sad part of growing old: seeing those we
shared the planet with leave the scene one by one and having no one to
replace them with.

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 10:34:50 GMT
From: flash@ee.inference.ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>In all the Heinlein novels I have ever read, the men are in charge.

You haven't read _Citizen of the Galaxy_ then; or at least not the middle
section.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 10:41:20 GMT
From: flash@ee.inference.ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein.. (what an author believes)

rwl@uvacs.CS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Ray Lubinsky) writes:
>jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>Is Heinlein is really so broad-minded (or is it just apathetic) that he
>can spend hundreds of pages showcasing a philosophy in which he does not
>believe?

Yes, demonstrably.  He does it in either _Between Planets_ or _Space
cadet_; they're the same universe, and the characters in the second like
the political system, in the first they fight it.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 10:54:02 GMT
From: flash@ee.inference.ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson) writes:
>>I thank Heinlein for this idea
>
>As we have been told, Heinlein doesn't deserve any credit because he just
>happened to think he could write an interesting story from this point of
>view.  If this applies to the bad it should apply to the good as well.

Nope, you've got it backwards.  He's presenting ideas, not advocating them.
"A philosopher's job is to make ideas _available_."  (Merlin, in _The Once
& Future King_) The point is Heinlein is playing with the ideas, which some
of us may find useful.

Flash Sheridan
flash@ee.qmc.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 07:52:42 GMT
From: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> I've read this book twice.
>
> They lived in fear of the airlock.  Cardinal Sin #1 was being impolite,
> which netted you death. The society's outward "safety" for women and
> children was due to:
>
> 1) Men having an extremely dominant position. Women were rare, so men
>    fought over them.  Women were not "worshiped" -- they were
>    *objects* of value and treated as such.
>
> 2) Strict order due to terror-tactics vigilante "justice."  The
>    trains may run on time, but this does not mean the society is
>    utopian.

Did we read the same book?

In the one I read, most of the populace didn't live in fear of very much,
with the possible exception of the yellow jackets, or the ever-possible
failure of the pressure containment mechanisms....

*Women* were in a very strongly dominant position.  To draw an example from
the book, find the scene were Mannie and Stu are drinking after the court
scene.  Mannie explains how a woman's will is absolute, using as an example
a marriage.  My memory is hazy, but the following is probably a close
paraphrase.  I can look up the exact wording if anyone cares.

Mannie: "Married?"    Stu: "Not at present."
"Suppose you were and your wife told you she was getting married again.
 What would you do?"
"Odd you would pick that; something like that did happen.  I saw my
 lawyer and made sure she got no alimony."
"``Alimony'' isn't a word here; I learned it Earthside.  Here, you
 might - or a Loonie husband might - say ``I think we'll need a bigger
 place, dear.''  Or if it made him so unhappy he couldn't stand it,
 might opt out and pack bags.  But whatever he did, would not make the
 slightest fuss.  If he did, public opinion would be universally
 against him.  Poor sod would probably change name, move to Novylen,
 and hope to live it down."

Now, what was that about men being in a dominant position again?

As for your `strict order due to terror-tactics vigilante "justice."', I
don't know what you're talking about.  The closest I can recall offhand to
this sort of thing is when Adam announced the names and addresses of the
undercover finks of the ex-Authority.  Can you produce a quote?  Perhaps
I've forgotten something.  For that matter, I have trouble recalling any
examples of `strict order' due to *anything*.

uucp: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
arpa: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 15:40:05 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>ewa@silvlis.COM writes:
>> ** SPOILER FOR "FRIDAY" **
>> At the end of *Friday*, she marries the guy who raped her.
>> That's beyond sexist.
 >
>Nonsense.  Friday considered killing him.  The big thing that stopped her
>was that he was a fellow AP (artificial person).  Also, she says, not in
>these words, that he showed compassion, even while carrying out orders to
>rape her.  And rape, to her as an AP, was not the trauma it would be to an
>ordinary woman.  Her reactions have NOTHING to do with the feelings of
>ordinary women.  After all, very little else she does in the whole novel
>has anything to do with what ordinary women do or feel.

Give me a break.
 
Heinlein invented this kind of female entity and made one the hero of his
novel.  Heinlein invented a kind of woman who does not mind being raped all
that much.  If I didn't think Heinlein was basically a decent person, I
would suspect he was indulging in a somewhat questionable fastasy.  That
she's not an ordinary woman, according to you, is supposed to make Heinlein
innocent of charges of sexism.  I don't know.  It doesn't sound all that
convincing to me.

Here is something you left out when quoting the article you responded to:

>In the struggle for understanding between the sexes, Robert Heinlein is
>not helping.

That, I would say, is what you really have to answer.

A battle over absolutes will never end.  He says Heinlein should "start
life over"; you say "NOTHING to do with the feelings of ordinary women": it
gets nowhere.

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 16:13:45 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

The continuing Friday debate...

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>Heinlein was NOT trying to show us utopia -- he was showing us Hell.  Why
>can't people accept that?  (Because it conflicts with beliefs that he's an
>evil fascist sexist etc., that's why.)

Here you say it's because of their beliefs about Heinlein, below that it's
because they're too idiotic to see the point of the books.  The latter
explanation, if true, would be sufficient.  People have not just decided
out of the blue that Heinlein is X, Y, or Z: they've read the books and
drawn conclusions.

>I've read most of RAH's books.

I have read and enjoyed many of Heinlein's books, including Friday.  He is
clearly one of the major authors in the field, and he can write.  I find it
strange, however, that people are so eager to defend him against any
criticism whatsoever.  Some of the criticism is at least reasonable, though
we might disagree as to whether it is fully justified.  Other criticism
does go to far.  It's should be clear that Heinlein is not a racist or a
fascist.  But you can't dismiss reasonable criticism just because the other
kind is also made.

>It is notable that he is rarely advancing any society in these books as a
>perfect one; in point of fact, many of the more controversial books are in
>fact too successful at pointing out the drawbacks of their societies to be
>advancing them as utopias -- so, of course, they are condemned by the kind
>of idiot who totally misses the point of such books.

Two things.  First, while it is true that some criticism is directed
against what is claimed to be positive depictions of certain political and
social ideas in Heinlein's societies, other criticism is directed against
the views (and other properties) of Heinlein's characters.  Such indeed is
the case with _Friday_, and so your argument is misdirected.

Second, please note that many people *like* the social and political ideas
in Heinlein's books.  They often agree with critics on what the politics
is; it's just that they approve while the critics do not.  So if the
critics are missing the point, some of the defenders are too.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 17:59:22 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>>I question the reasoning behind the hero in the story having an
>>incestuous relationship with his mother and his "daughters".  
>
>At risk of talking over everyone elses' heads: in TEfL, incest is defined
>in terms of GENETICS.  If the gene charts show no danger, there's no
>reason not to indulge in sex.

That's the reasoning: Mark questions it.  He doesn't think using "incest"
in a different sense is good enough reason for incest in the normal sense;
or perhaps he feels the different sense is bad in itself.  Or perhaps I
have Mark wrong.  But you're not answering his objection.

>Heinlein is not necessarily propounding *that* as utopia, either.  (Cf.
>my earlier articles.

Done.

>It's much simpler and undoubtedly more correct to say that Heinlein is
>*exploring* various situations -- not promulgating them, just taking a
>look at them.  Is that so hard to accept?

It's not hard to accept because to a significant extent it's true.
However, Heinlein does not seem to be making a random selection of
situations to explore, so that can't be all there is to it.

There are many reasons a simple "he's not promoting these ideas" defense.
Here are some:

1. He might be exploring in some passages or books and promoting in
   others.  I'm not saying this is so, but it's logically possible.
   You seem to be supposing that all his books were written with
   the same intentions and must be interpreted in the same way.

2. It is reasonable to criticise a book even when the actual views
   of the author are unknown.  Indeed, to insist to the contrary
   would invalidate almost all (all?) criticism.

3. Individual books can be criticised even if others are different
   in some of the respects cited.

4. It is reasonable to note that an author writes the books s/he
   writes. In Heinlein's case we can note that he explores certain
   ideas and not others, and that his characters often have certain 
   characteristics in common.  Is that so hard to accept?

5. It is reasonable to criticise someone merely for writing certain
   kinds of books, such as propaganda for evil causes.  This is not
   to suggest that Heinlein does write propaganda, but some of the
   arguments in his defense seem to say that nothing in fiction can
   ever count against the author.  That said, however, I think we
   should concentrate on the fiction and avoid personal attacks.

In fact, I believe a strong and valid defense of Heinlein can be made.  But
it will have to take some criticism seriously rather than dismissing it out
of hand.

For one thing, someone might want to quote the Delany remark about Starship
Trooper (I think that was it).  He recalls being impressed that one
character just happened to be black, just like one might happen to be blond
or tall (not his comparison, but I don't have the right book handy and
don't want to be too cryptic.)

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 18:49:35 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

flash@ee.inference.ee.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) writes:
>jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>> yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson) writes:
>>>I thank Heinlein for this idea
>
>>As we have been told, Heinlein doesn't deserve any credit because he just
>>happened to think he could write an interesting story from this point of
>>view.  If this applies to the bad it should apply to the good as well.
>
>Nope, you've got it backwards.  He's presenting ideas, not advocating
>them.  "A philosopher's job is to make ideas _available_."  (Merlin, in
>_The Once & Future King_) The point is Heinlein is playing with the ideas,
>which some of us may find useful.

I understand what you're saying: Heinlein can be thanked because he
presented the idea.  But I did not say he was advocating the idea: I was
reusing Chuq's remark that Heinlein just happened to think he could write
an interesting story.  There is a standard defense of Heinlein, which you
repeat, namely that he doesn't advocate any of the ideas in his fiction,
merely presents them.  What is supposed to follow from this is that he
cannot, therefore, be be attacked for those ideas.

Those who use this defense are very fortunate that critics often present
their case in a way that is vulnerable to it, by implying that Heinlein
holds the views in question, for the critics could instead attack Heinlein
simply for presenting them in the way he does (and then the defense would
be useless).  Indeed, this may well be all the critics have in mind.  After
all, they don't know what Heinlein really thinks: perhaps he just likes to
stir them up.

My point was that if Heinlein can't be faulted for any nasty ideas he plays
with (assuming he does play with nasty ones), he shouldn't get credit for
any good ones.  I will admit that Judy's article wasn't the best example
for this purpose and that my point was muddled in consequence.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 08:17:05 GMT
From: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
> [O]ne small point: several of Heinlein's characters have made a statement
> along the lines of "The best possible government is a benevolent
> dictatorship".  [...] [T]he key word is "benevolent".  No, you can't
> guarantee that a government will be benevolent.  But *if* it is...

I'm not entirely convinced of this.  What exactly does "benevolent" mean?
"Means well towards"?  I have this feeling that some of the worst
governments in history have been led by people who meant nothing but the
best for the people....  I certainly have no confidence that the result
would actually be nice to live under.

*My* notion of an ideal society is an intelligent anarchy, a little like
Van Vogt's Null-A Venus.  For example, suppose I'm in the 25% tax bracket.
(This may not be true, but I think it's about what it came out to last
month when I did my taxes, and it makes for nice round figures.)  This
means that I'm working nine months of the year for myself and three for the
governments that collect tax.  Now suppose the wastage figure of government
is only 50% - I suspect it's much higher.  (For example, I hear long
distance telephone tolls are much worse: some 80% of the toll charge is
solely to support the billing administrivia; only 20% is needed to pay for
the resources required by the call).

I would, I believe, be willing to do 1.5 months of volunteer work a year on
things such as road maintenance (that being a typical example of
not-particularly-pleasant work currently supported by tax money) instead of
paying 3 months' worth of tax and having half of it go to pay someone else
to do such things (and half of it wasted).

uucp: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
arpa: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 17 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 170

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Card (3 msgs) & Dick &
                      Eddings & Niven & Saberhagen & 
                      Schmitz (3 msgs) & SF Poetry (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 17:09:06 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot) writes:
> scottsc@microsoft.UUCP (Scott Schultz) writes:
>>Who or What are the demons?
>
>Demons?  Plural?  Where?  The only demon I remember is the Demon Goddess,
>Verra.  And she's the patron of Easterners.

Actually, she was the patron of the kingdom. From what little description
we have I would assume that the northern and southern folk have their own
systems of worship.

As to the plurality, I believe that Our Hero's (I'm going to have to get my
copy out to start getting these names straight) girlfriend tells him that
she is leaving because she was the offspring of a human/demon liaison that
occurred when her mother was kidnapped by demons. She then rides off into
the sunset. I like to think that we'll find out she is connected to Vlad's
family tree somehow. Dragaeran's don't get reincarnated as Easterners as a
matter of standard practice I wouldn't think...

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 08:21:31 GMT
From: oleg@gryphon.cts.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP (Leonard Abbot) writes:
>Any ideas what [_Taltos_] is, outside of a patron?

My understanding was that _Taltos_ in Hungerian Mythology was a title
reserved for a magician (demi-god?), who often assumed various shapes and
various roles in the Universe to achieve his goals.  Bolk's goal seemed to
have something to do with limiting Verra's power, encouraging whatever it
was that inhabited the Palace, and helping along the chosen hero.  As any
myth would have it, Miklos was the designated hero and Bolk, the _Taltos_
horse, was his magical/supernatural aid/guide.  Also, recall that Bolk was
feedings on _something_ that came from Miklos (or am I mis-remembering?)...

Oleg Kiselev
(213)452-2435x354	
{lcc|bilbo|frodo}.oleg@seas.ucla.edu	
...!{ihnp4|trwrb!ucla-cs}!lcc!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 13:39:19 GMT
From: dzoey@terminus.umd.edu (Joe I. Herman)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust (really Brokedown Palace)

Well, all this talk about Brokedown Palace caused me to dig out my copy and
re-read it.  You know, I appreciate the book a lot more now that I've read
more of Brust.  Things seem to make much more sense.

As I am reading the book, the allegory of revolution comes on so strong as
to be almost distracting.  I keep trying to assign characters their
functional counter parts.  Here are some of my guesses as to what the
characters represent.  I'd be interested in any comments people would have
about this.

The king - Royalty
Vilmi - The army
Briggita - The people (??)
Sandor - Secret service/ KGB (??)
The tree - The popular support for revolution (the people??)
Andi - The church
Miklos - The intellectuals (??)
Bolk - Foreign interest

What do you folks think?
 
Joe Herman
dzoey@terminus.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 21:17:14 GMT
From: cs201100@usl-pc.uucp (Davis Karen)
Subject: Orson Scott Card

I didn't see anybody mention _A Planet Called Treason_ by OSC.  I have a
copy but haven't managed to read it yet.  It reminded me of Cordwainer
Smith's "A Planet Named Shayol" and I was kind of annoyed that Card was
apparently ripping off Smith.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there is a lot more
in common than just the title.  Both have to do with a "prison" planet
where people are sent to live out life sentences.  Both involve some kind
of organism indigenous to the planet that causes mutation in humans
(specifically, growing extra organs and stuff.)

I like both authors, but I have an almost religious devotion to Cordwainer
Smith.  Long live the Underpeople.

Karen Davis

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 06:44:02 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

cs201100@usl-pc.UUCP (Davis Karen) says:
> I didn't see anybody mention _A Planet Called Treason_ by OSC.  I have a
> copy but haven't managed to read it yet.  It reminded me of Cordwainer
> Smith's "A Planet Named Shayol" and I was kind of annoyed that Card was
> apparently ripping off Smith.
>
> For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there is a lot
> more in common than just the title.  Both have to do with a "prison"
> planet where people are sent to live out life sentences.  Both involve
> some kind of organism indigenous to the planet that causes mutation in
> humans (specifically, growing extra organs and stuff.)

Read the book!

The mutation was NOT caused by an organism. Rather, the mutation was
devised on purpose -- the founder of that particular "family" was a
geneticist. I won't give away more secrets, but, the book mostly concerns
the protagonist travelling from "family" to "family"-- all of which have
unique talents related to their founder's original specialty.

Some of it requires a bit more "suspension of disbelief" than is usual --
but still, Orson Scott Card at his worst is better than 99% of the rest of
the hacks out there.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
{cuae2,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 15:31:34 GMT
From: llkl@ur-tut (L Kleiner )
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

cs201100@usl-pc.UUCP (Davis Karen) writes:
>I didn't see anybody mention _A Planet Called Treason_ by OSC.  I have a
>copy but haven't managed to read it yet.  It reminded me of Cordwainer
>Smith's "A Planet Named Shayol" and I was kind of annoyed that Card was
>apparently ripping off Smith.  Both have to do with a "prison" planet
>where people are sent to live out life sentences.  Both involve some kind
>of organism indigenous to the planet that causes mutation in humans
>(specifically, growing extra organs and stuff.)  Karen Davis

Wow, this artical really knocked the wind out of my sails.  I found Card's
book in the back of my university library (covered with a ton of dust) last
year, and I just loved it.  Here I thought Card was being terribly original
and inventive, and it turns out he just ripped off a good story!

Has anyone actually read both of these books?
 
Are there any other books out there with the same idea behind it (growing
other organs, customs/lifestyles etc. to adapt to environment) worth
reading?

At any rate, _A Planed Called Treason_ is a great read, even if it is a
re-do!

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 23:54:11 GMT
From: lary@ssdevo.dec.com (Perspicacity? I knew his brother Hopalong...)
Subject: Re: UBIK (originally something about "hard SF vs literature")

>(** SPOILER WARNING ** (though, if you're like me, you'd much prefer to
>find this out ahead of time so as not to waste your time reading it...))
>After wading through the whole book, the plot dissolving into total
>weirdness and non sequiters as you go, on the last page Dick tells you
>"It's all a dream".  Actually, in this case, the hallucinations of the
>narrator as he lies dying on the floor of an airlock on the moon.
>BLEEEEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

That never happened in the UBIK that I read (and enjoyed immensely).

A SPOILER WARNING is appropriate here.

The problem in saying what did happen at the end of UBIK - i.e. what is
really, after all of the false insights (a PKD specialty, aka "total
weirdness and non sequiters"), going on, is that you get tangled up in all
kinds of abstract and fumbling language; but to me what is being described
is two completely incompatible and yet interpenetrating realities - the
"Joe Chip" one and the "Runcible" one.

Sort of like your perception of the book and mine.

For most of the book those realities are described in such a way that you
think you understand how they relate; the final, short chapter turns that
relationship on its head and leaves you in the same position as the book's
characters; i.e. with the realization that Everything You Know is
Wrong.....

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 21:19:00 GMT
From: rce229@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Eddings/Malloreon

There is an interview with David Eddings in a free newletter in our campus
bookstore called "BEYOND."  The issue isn't dated, but refers to the
paperback issuance of _Guardians of the West_ in the past tense while
placing _King of the Murgoes_ in the near future.

According to the article, Eddings had just completed the third _Malloreon_
book.  Later it says that "he has two more books of _The Malloreon_ to
write, and two more after that."

The first "two more" would be books #4 and #5 (whose titles are listed in
_King of the Murgoes_), but what might the other pair be?  Also does
knowing that he has finished #3 give any clues as to its release date?
 
Rob Elliott

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 16:47:09 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
> I guess one of the key points, since the rules say I can't pick what
> social position I start out at, is the freedom to change my social
> position with a little work and motivation.  Actually, I don't think
> there were any poor people in Known Space.  At least, I don't think Niven
> ever wrote about any.

There were poor people in known space. In one story (I forget the name of
it) Richard Schultz-Mann tells some jinxian about a period of his life in
which he wasn't able to afford Boosterspice. Also, in "Neutron Star" we
learn that Down has a debtor's prison. Finally, there are people with
boosterspice allergy, who probably would find it hard to get a good
long-term job.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 08:39:44 GMT
From: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Saberhagen's Books of Swords

***** Books of Swords SPOILERS contained herein *****

okeefe@UTKCS2.CS.UTK.EDU (Gregory Okeefe) writes:
> [The gods'] creation [of the Swords] was more than they bargained for, in
> that it resulted in their own downfall; but they are at the same time
> treated in the traditional, almighty sense and [...]  Furthermore, there
> were scenes in which the gods intervened to retrieve one or more swords:
> WHY DIDN'T THEY RETRIEVE EACH SWORD THIS WAY?

For one thing, it took a while before they could agree there was any real
danger, and by the time they did, their downfall was already advanced far
enough that it might not have stopped even if they had taken all twelve
Swords back right then.

They also might not have been *able* to take the Swords back.  We see
Farslayer kill at least two gods, one when cast by a mortal.  We see
Doomgiver bind a goddess to some sort of justice.  There is some evidence
that Mindsword and Soulcutter are strong enough to control and drain
(respectively) a god.  A mortal with Shieldbreaker in hand probably could
not be defeated in combat by even Mars.  A mortal plus a Sword, it seems,
is actually a match for a god, at least for some of the Swords.  The power
of the Swords is definitely on a par with that of the gods themselves.

uucp: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
arpa: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 15:40:15 GMT
From: eric@snark.uucp (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Government in James Schmitz's Hub universe

Cate3.PA@XEROX.COM wrote:
>Was there any other stories in which James Schmitz talked about the role
>of government?

There's stuff scattered all through his Hub novels. I can't cite you exact
references, but here's the picture that emerged for me from it all.

There are basically three levels of government in the Hub civilization --
the planetary governments, some multiplanet groupings, and the
Overgovernment.

Law is a planetary-government function; different worlds have different
customs but all are in present Earth terms quite wealthy, free, and
capitalist.  Corporations and commercial entities are powerful and
sometimes govern planets themselves.

Planetary governments have their own military apparatuses and occasionally
engage in low-level warfare, but most competition is economic. Multiplanet
groupings sometimes form for economic advantage or via political
manipulation.

Now we come to the really interesting feature: the Hub Overgovernment.

The Overgovernment is a secretive but very powerful organization to which
all lesser human governments owe nominal allegiance. It has known members
(there are implications that selection is by some kind of merit test and
membership is for life) and many covert agents. Many of its activities
(such as the active recruitment and training of psionics) are not only
hidden from the public but unknown to most `undergovernments'.

The Overgovernment is patient. It interferes as little as possible with
undergovernments and other human organizations, stepping in only when major
warfare threatens or when an undergovernment evolves in a repressive
direction. The best capsule description of Overgovernment style is
"ruthless benevolence"; it is, for example, very careful of innocent
bystanders but will use assassination and brainwashing against anyone who's
earned a place on the never-be-missed list. Identified Overgovernment
agents take it for granted that undergovernment law can't touch them.

The Overgovernment has been around for a long time (one gets the impression
that the Hub stories take place many thousands of years in our future) and
evidently feels very secure in its hold over human culture. It is widely
understood to be operating on some very-long-term objectives the nature of
which are not understood outside the Overgovernment itself. The Professor
in _Demon_Breed_ is the only Schmitz character I know of to offer a
detailed guess as to what they are.

I agree with a previous poster's suggestion that the Hub is the far future
of the world of _Agents_Of_Vega_, which might be set a thousand years from
now.  The style and methods of the Galactic Zones department might make it
the direct ancestor of the Hub Overgoverment.

I'm less sure if _The_Witches_Of_Karres_ fits this timeline. If so, it's
probably set closer in time/space to _Agents_Of_Vega_ then the Hub stories.

All of Schmitz's stuff is fun and interesting -- SF in the classic Analog
mold. _Agents_Of_Vega_ is a good place to start if you can find a copy.
The Telzey Amberdon stories and _The_Witches_Of_Karres_ are well-known, of
course. He had another series about an Overgovernment agent called Trigger
Argee; she is contemporary with Telzey and they do meet in one of the
novels.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
{{uunet,rutgers,ihnp4}!cbmvax,rutgers!vu-vlsi,att}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 19:34:16 GMT
From: markz@ssc.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: "The Demon Breed" first appeared as "The Tuvela"

Cate3.PA@XEROX.COM writes:
>      Does anyone know or have references on James Schmitz personal life.
> I'm curious about where the idea of having a government worry about
> encouraging the human species to become tougher might have come from.

The tract at the end of "Demon Breed" struck me as pure John W. Campbell.
I wonder if Schmitz even wrote that part?

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 22:18:44 GMT
From: smith@cos.com (Steve Smith)
Subject: Re: "The Demon Breed" first appeared as "The Tuvela"

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) writes:
>The tract at the end of "Demon Breed" struck me as pure John W. Campbell.
>I wonder if Schmitz even wrote that part?

According to a recently published volume of "The Letters of John W.
Campbell" [*], the ending was tacked on at Campbell's suggestion.
Personally, I think the book is stronger with the ending the way it is,
Campbellisms and all.

[*] If anybody's interested, I can come up with publication data.  Don't
expect to find it at the supermarket.  It's got some absolutely fascinating
stuff in it.  

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 19:35:00 GMT
From: russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: poem request

I once read a poem called something like 'I Dream of a World of Electronic
Grace' (by?) and am wondering what anyone can tell me about it--maybe
someone has a copy they could mail me?

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St
Omro WI 54963
russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 03:52:07 GMT
From: codas!novavax!maddoxt@moss.att.com (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: poem request

russell@puff.WISC.EDU (Russell Perry) writes:
>I once read a poem called something like 'I Dream of a World of Electronic
>Grace' (by?) and am wondering what anyone can tell me about it--maybe
>someone has a copy they could mail me?

   You might be talking about Richard Brautigan's (r.i.p.)  "Watched Over
by Machines of Loving Grace" (title recalled from memory, so no guarantees
concerning exactitude).  Was in a collection of poetry that came out in the
wake of _Trout Fishing in America_'s success.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 19 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 171

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Dick (2 msgs) & Spinrad & Varley (2 msgs) &
                    Zelazny (6 msgs) & Interstellar Computer Virus

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 10:00:36 GMT
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re:  Hard SF and Literary Quality

I picked some comments out of a longer posting here, partly for the Dickian
interest and partly because I think they do a good job of representing the
whole...

Mike van Pelt read Phil Dick's novel UBIK and 'despised' it:

>After wading through the whole book, the plot dissolving into total
>weirdness and non sequiters as you go, on the last page Dick tells you
>"It's all a dream".  Actually, in this case, the hallucinations of the
>narrator as he lies dying on the floor of an airlock on the moon.
>BLEEEEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

>Please ignore the inflamatory tone of some of this.  I tend to get a bit
>carried away when I think about some of this stuff.

I'll try to ignore the tone, but Mike, you've completely missed the boat on
UBIK and I suspect that your trouble with this novel may carry over to
others.  I'll admit my biases up front: UBIK is one of my all-time favorite
novels, and I think it has high literary quality.  I'll try to explain why
I like it, and why I think some books require a different kind of reader
than others.

The world of UBIK is considerably stranger than our own.  The dead are made
accessible to the living through a process called cold-pac which
electronically maintains souls in dead bodies and permits them to
communicate with the outside.  Businesses compete for people with
paranormal talents, recruiting them to perform industrial espionage upon
their competitors; to counter this, security services offer 'inertials' who
can neutralize particular talents.  Life has become amazingly cheap and
tacky, with obnoxious, bureaucratic robots in charge of every least thing,
down to the coin-operated door to your apartment (nope, talking doors
weren't invented by Douglas Adams).

Joe Chip works for an anti-psi security organization named Runciter
Associates.  His life is on the skids, and he usually blows his paycheck on
drugs that keep him from thinking about how dull his existence is.  His job
is to monitor psi fields electronically, to determine whether an anti-psi
representative from Runciter Associates needs to be called in.  A business
crisis arises -- the top psis in the world are disappearing: where are
they?  Glen Runciter, the owner and chief executive officer of the company,
is approached by a client who says that their company is being attacked by
the vanished psis; Runciter has to send his best people to the site (on the
moon) to counter them.  Joe Chip comes along as the necessary technician.
Once on the moon, though, the job turns out to be a trap -- a bomb explodes
and kills Runciter.  In a panic, the team escapes to their ship, putting
Runciter in cold-pac, and blasts off to Earth.

But things aren't quite right...  Earth isn't the same.  First it's just
the little things, but it gets worse, much worse.  It becomes apparent that
there is another interpretation of the bomb blast: Runciter is alive, but
the rest of the team is dead(!), preserved in cold-pac.  At the same time,
an evil force is tracking the team down, eliminating them one by one in
horrible ways.  Joe has to confront his own weakness in order to fight the
evil, and in the midst of his weakness he somehow manages to find strength.
The last two pages of the novel are a devilish trick that turns the novel
on its head -- and yet it stays the same...

Dick doesn't have any realistic technological ideas to offer in this novel.
His future world is a satire -- the pedantic robot doors, the dog-eat-dog
business world, psychics for hire, all are ridiculous.  No one, not even
Dick, would take it seriously as a prediction.  So what is the point?

Part of the point is to make you question your ideas about reality.  By the
end of the book, we see that the two possible realities, Chip's and
Runciter's, complement each other in a curious way.  If you read the book
carefully, you realize that the strange 'decay' weirdness begins to happen
before the bomb attack.  The 'evil force' exists in both realities,
personified by two different characters (although this is deliberately
blurred).  The ambiguity is so exquisite that it is impossible to say that
one reality is more 'real' than the other in the context of the novel; each
has its own validity.  I like to think that I see the same yin-yang
symbolism in this novel that appears in another favorite Dick novel, THE
MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE.  In any case the 'little worlds' theme is a
constant in Dick's novels, and it's clear that Dick believes that this
applies at a higher level than just fiction, perhaps even at a higher level
than the obvious one, of human relationships.

But the little ads for 'Ubik' brand products that head each chapter show
that Dick has something up his sleeve beyond just reality warping.  To make
a flat statement: I would argue that this novel is a theological
speculation on the nature of grace.  Joe Chip is a loser; he fucks up every
opportunity that comes his way, and he shows weakness in the face of
adversity.  But when his life is on the line and he really needs courage,
it is there.  Even Joe is puzzled about where it comes from, and Dick has
tricked us by symbolizing its nature in an aerosol spray can (of all
things!).

   Has perspiration odor taken you out of the swim?  Ten-day Ubik deodorant
   spray or Ubik roll-on ends worry of offending, brings you back where the
   happening is.  Safe when used as directed in a conscientious program of
   body hygiene.

Literary quality means different things to different people.  I've met
people whose aesthetic senses were limited by their ability to ground a
story in the 'real world'.  The most extreme of these read only nonfiction
and can't understand how anyone else gets any enjoyment from fiction.
Others enjoy escapism -- some escape into the distant reaches of fantasy
and the absurd, some tether themselves to some notion of concrete
possibility.  Each of these 'little worlds' of the readers has its own
customs and values.  My own 'little world' puts a premium on psychological
and philosophical escapism -- if a wacko story illustrates a nice
philosophical paradox, I'll enjoy it much more than a story that turns on
some fine point of plasma physics.  Another literary quality I look for is
the density of meaning -- if I read the story again, does it always mean
just the same thing?  Or does it have a deep core that repays repeated
investigation?

I won't argue (and if I believe Dick, I can't argue) that my aesthetic
sense of literary quality is superior to anyone else's.  I can and do argue
that if you don't keep an open mind about literary quality, you will surely
miss stories that you might otherwise enjoy greatly.

'Look on reverse side of container for address and phone number,'

Donn Seeley
University of Utah CS Dept
(801) 581-5668
donn@cs.utah.edu
utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 15:15:46 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: UBIK (originally something about "hard SF vs literature")

Just to add a short note to the discussion of UBIK, by P K Dick:

It is one of Dick's books that I find very thought-provoking, and I get
something new out of it at every reading.  However, it seems to me you have
very little chance of understanding much of it unless you have read the
Bardo Thodol, the so-called 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'.  Other sources that
might help are the Gnostic gospels, Schopenhauer's 'Welt als Wille und
Vorstellung', and some of Dick's other works, especially Three Stigmata...

------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 22 Apr 88 09:39 CET
From: <PSST001@dtuzdv1.bitnet>
Subject:      Spinrad

Could someone please give a short review of Norman Spinrad's THE IRON
DREAM?

Thankx

Michael Maisack
Tuebingen, Germany

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 11:50:59 GMT
From: jhoskins@tmc.edu (John Hoskins)
Subject: Choose your universe

An earlier poster mentioned John Varley's Blue Champagne.  I would prefer
John Varley's Titan probably in the time frame of the second book.  I can't
give any lofty reasons why, it has always appealed to me.

My (and I) would like to know if anybody knows if Varley has any other
plans for the Titan scenario.  Seems to me he could fill in the gap between
Wizard and Demon, after all alot had happened then.  Maybe some short
stories somewhere?

thanks.

John Hoskins
jhoskins%bcm.tmc.edu@tmc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 13:29:21 GMT
From: carols@drilex.uucp (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Easy. John Varley's "Ophiuchi Hotline" universe.
>
>Why?
>
>High tech, a lot of artistic and personal freedom, effective immortality
>proof against even acts of god. 

Not really.  As Varley's own character Fox points out, the clone in whose
body your brain patterns can be installed after you die isn't really *you*.
The old "you" is still dead.  People keep the mind recordings as a vanity
and a comfort, knowing it's as close to immortality as they can get, but
also aware (though not liking to think about it) that this sort of
immortality is an illusion.

Think about it.  Suppose someone arranged to install your mental patterns,
that which you perceive to be you, in an accelerated clone of yourself, and
to kill your old body at the instant of the, oh, let's call it mind
transfer.  So you could live on and on in a younger body, right?  Wrong.
Let's say there's a glitch and the old you isn't killed.  So there are two
mentally identical you's walking around, right?  I think you'd more likely
continue to think of your old self as "me" and the new one as "that person
just like me, only not."

Perhaps partially in recognition of the discomfort entailed in shattering
the continuity-of-self illusion, it is a high crime in Varley's universe to
cause or allow two selves with the same mind to exist simultaneously.  When
this law is circumvented, some interesting stories result.
 
Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue    
Lexington, MA  02173      
{bbn,mit-eddie,rutgers!ll-xn,harvard,linus!axiom,necntc}!drilex!carols  

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 17:28:45 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
[About Amber's Pattern]
>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the key
>hanging right there?

Seems clear to me: anyone can get *in*, but no one/nothing can get *out*!
Since we've seen that one can teleport to anyplace after walking the
Pattern, it seems possible that someone (perhaps from the Keep or the
Courts?) might be able to teleport to the Pattern.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 18:04:01 GMT
From: jac@walnut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
>Another interesting point is whether Merlin can walk Corwin's pattern
>since he was born before it existed, whereas Oberon, etc, all were born
>after Dworkin drew the first Pattern.

Is this true?  I haven't read all of the Amber stuff in several months now
(every time a new one comes out I read them all again), but I got the
impression that Oberon was indeed born before Dworkin drew the pattern,
because I thought that it was right after the pattern was drawn that both
Oberon and Dworkin were kicked out of Chaos.  If this impression is
incorrect, could someone point me toward the source of your info (book and
chapter at least).  Thanx.

Jim Clausing
CIS Department			
Ohio State University		
Columbus, OH 43210	
jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 08:34:50 GMT
From: oleg@gryphon.cts.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>>>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the
>>>key hanging right there?
>>Seems clear to me: anyone can get *in*, but no one/nothing can get *out*!
>So?  If they can teleport there, they can teleport anywhere else in Amber.

To teleport anywhere from the center of the Pattern, one had to visualize
the place, i.e. one had to have been there or seen it (or imagined it --
remember the trip to the Bar of Alice in Wonderland?).  Outside the
Pattern, such teleports are impossible without a Trump (or Trump contact
from someone already there) or a gradual Shadow-walk toward the desired
place.

Oleg Kiselev
(213)452-2435x354	
{lcc|bilbo|frodo}.oleg@seas.ucla.edu	
...!{ihnp4|trwrb!ucla-cs}!lcc!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 09:43:24 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.uucp (John L McKernan)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

One explanation for the key on the outside of the door that occurs to me is
the following: in order to gate yourself somewhere, you have to have a very
deep and strong visualization of the place you want to go. This would make
it difficult for just anybody to transport into the castle in Amber. The
pattern however is more of a formalized gate. Its form is much more
available throughout the Amber cosmos (remember that the order of the
cosmos derives from the pattern), and possibly even other cosmos. Thus it
seems much more likely that some strange being could gate into the pattern
than into the castle. And therefore the door is locked from the outside.

John L. McKernan
Student
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 23:48:40 GMT
From: leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

laura@haddock.ima.isc.com writes:
>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the key
>hanging right there?

   I think it's so Dworkin the Dwarf can't get in to mess things up.  He's
mad, after all.

Then again, it could be so that nobody enters the room by accident.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 23:53:58 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

> Another interesting point is whether Merlin can walk Corwin's pattern
> since he was born before it existed, whereas Oberon, etc, all were born
> after Dworkin drew the first Pattern.

The question is not when you were born but whether you are genetically
descended from the creator of the pattern. Merlin even has a memory in
_Blood of Amber_ in which he recalls Corwin's sister asking him to try
stepping onto it. When she had tried, a force created a shower of sparks
and prevented her from touching it. Merlin, however, felt no resistance at
all even though he lied and said that he did. I'm sure that we'll get to
see Merlin walk the New Pattern before the series is over.

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 22:10:43 GMT
From: smith@cos.com (Steve Smith)
Subject: Re: Interstellar Computer Virus?

hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
> ...  Sagan believes that radio messages with instructions to build some
>thing might be a possible first contact scenario (the basis for his
>fiction: _Contact_).
>
> ...	Well, I got to thinking.  There might be pranksters out there ...
>
>to understand and we may just build the thing without understanding it ...
>Are there books that exploit this idea out there? I remember hearing about
>_A for Andromeda_ (?) ...
>
>	Any hints?

Two books about "interstellar viruses":

"A for Andromeda", by Fred Hoyle.  It was supposedly made from a BBC TV
series.  Has anybody seen the series?  Anyway, the book is superb.  Sir
Fred has been accused of many things, but lack of imagination is *not* one
of them.  There was also a sequel, "Andromeda Breakthrough", which was not
particularly notable.

"The Siren Stars", by (I think) Walt and Leigh Richmond.  The worst sort of
"secret agent" crap.  I saw it as a serial in Analog; I don't know if it
made it into a book version.

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 19 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:

	     Television - Star Trek (5 msgs) & UFO (2 msgs) &
                          Something is Out There (4 msgs) 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 13:18:13 GMT
From: nutto@umass.bitnet (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: STTNG: There'll always be Paris

Did anyone else notice that although Natasha Yar died in the previous STTNG
episode they still included her name in the credits in last night's story?

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 17:45:00 GMT
From: otten@cincom.umd.edu ("NEIL OTTENSTEIN")
Subject: ST:TNG - "CONSPIRACY"

"Conspiracy" was another good episode of ST:TNG.  It was one of the few
episodes so far that have referred back to a previous episode.  Most
episodes could have been shown in just about any order this season.  We
learned more about Pickard and Dr. Crusher's husband.  Dr. Crusher also
looked quite good in the episode, saving the day at one point and (behind
the scenes) helping to bring about the dramatic ending.  That ending was a
bit gross, though.  I'm glad I wasn't eating dinner while I was watching
it.

Neil Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 18:22:33 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: STTNG

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>Was last night's episode of STTNG a total ripoff of Aliens or what?

No, it was a total ripoff of _The Puppet Masters_ and maybe _Invasion of
the Body Snatchers_.  Remember, nothing original has been done in the field
since H. G. Wells. :-)

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 04:06:15 GMT
From: drwho@bsu-cs.uucp (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: STTNG

Most video SF since Star Trek has been a vain attempt to imitate that
wonderful show.  Maybe it is about time that Trek be allowed to
reciprocate.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN 47303      
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 04:10:09 GMT
From: drwho@bsu-cs.uucp (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG - "Conspiracy" More Comments

otten@CINCOM.UMD.EDU ("NEIL OTTENSTEIN") writes:
> There are a few more things about "Conspiracy" and ST:TNG in general I
> thought about commenting on.  First of all, Wesley is appearing less
> frequently.  I don't think he would have been as tiring a character if
> they didn't show him so often and prominently in the early episodes.  Now
> that he is appearing less frequently, he should be more bearable.

It must take forever for stuff to get around on this NET.  Wil Wheaton was
in the hospital during the filming of the last two or three episodes and
that is why he has not been seen.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.	 
Muncie, IN 47303         
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 18:15:43 GMT
From: mch@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Major Kano)
Subject: Re: More on UFO (Was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter) writes:
>>About the aliens being humanoid, well in one episode you find out they
>>are actually human beings, who the aliens have captured and somehow taken
>>over or "robotised" (for want of a better word).

They HAVE done this in the past (Foster himself was a victim once), but
this is very rare. Usually the aliens like to do their own dirty work.

>>I can't quite remember why, but I'm sure that it was something like the
>>aliens were physically incapable of space flight or something.

No, but they are in bad shape. They have to use fertility drugs most of the
time, in order to breed. See below.

>>I know the bit about aliens taking over humans is right

No, it isn't!

>>discovers an alien who is actually someone he knew or an autopsy on a a
>>dead alien discovers the fact they're human or something like that, I'm a

They captured a live one in the first episode. He (it ?) had had a HUMAN
heart transplant (the skydiver captain's sister, how co-incidental :-)

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter) writes:
>>I know the bit about aliens taking over humans is right because
>>Straker(sp?)  discovers an alien who is actually someone he knew or an
>>autopsy on a dead alien discovers the fact they're human or something
>>like that, I'm a little fuzzy on details I'm afraid.
>
>It's a bit more grizzly than that. BITS of the alien were human. Humans
>are being used as unwilling spare part donors to keep the aliens going.
>
>Some humans were captured, taken over, and packaged in the alien's
>spacesuit' and green liquid, but they were not typical aliens.

I don't remember this one. What happened overall that eisode ? They *DID*
put a human horse-rider in a cannister for shipment back home once if that
rings any bells.

   So, for the last time, the so-called "aliens" are very nearly (tho' not
quite) HUMAN. They use humans for spare part surgery, and may actually want
to take over planet Earth themselves.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 88 15:54:22 BST
From: mch
Subject: Gerry Anderson's UFO (was Re: Obscure TV SF shows)

   Our local TV station, TVS, here in the UK has just started a rerun of
the entire series. We DO see the aliens (frequently), they're humanoid; in
fact, they're so human, the word "aliens" is almost a mistake where they're
concerned.

Basically, they (like the Invaders, David Vincent & Co) come from a dying
planet. It has (presumably) been mined, polluted, "greenhouse a(e)ffected",
deforested, etc., and the aliens are only managing to breed via fertility
drugs. They come to Earth to take human beings and "gut" them for spare
parts(ie., transplant surgery). It is not made entirely clear (though the
episode with the telepathic human in it suggests so) whether or not they
actually want Earth itself, or not.

I've waited for UFO to come round for some time now, and am particularly
interested in the alien society. I would guess it to be something of a
cross between "1984" and "Blade Runner(ish)", that is an anti-utopia where
a totalitarian government runs a society in which the average person lives
in low-grade blocks, and the few green and fertile areas of the planet left
belong to the members of the ruling class, or the rich (not necessarily the
same).

In fact, someone could write a great episode along these lines! 

I would be interested from anyone who has ANY comments on UFO, or more
info.

Glad to see it back.

Thanks in advance,

Martin C. Howe
University College Cardiff
mch@vax1.computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 00:05:21 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re: Nothing is Out There

>Some comments on "Something is out there" TV movie which aired on NBC
>recently...

I felt the major problems with it were the way the aliens were portrayed
(completely human in some ways and yet alien in others - not believeable,
examples follow) and the way the movie was dragged out over what must have
been 3 hours without commercials when it could have been a 90 minute movie
with exrtraneous scenes cut out.  I did feel it had some redeeming
qualities, however...  The special effects were nice, and the ... well...
I can't remember any of the other good points right now...  I'm sure there
were some...  The special effects were nice....

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 19:57:54 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: "Something Out There" question

fairbanks%sef.DECnet@NWC.ARPA writes:
>For those of you who had nothing better to do but watch NBC's special
>"Something Out There", I could have sworn that, during part 1, when Tara
>(Maryam D'Abo) was explaining to Jack (Tom Cortese) about how she got on
>Earth, the prison ship exploded with "Mother" (shades of the Nostromo)
>giving a countdown to doomsday.

All I noticed as the backend of the ship blowing up, and lots of nasty
things happening in the control room.  The ship continued to exist, but I
doubt it was a very pleasant place to hang around with all that
turbo-nuclear purge around it.  :-)

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 20:23:54 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Ripping Apart "Something is Out There"

emiller@bbn.com (ethan miller)  writes:
>Other points:
>1. Granted, it made for a funny line, but why was there no self-destruct
>on a prison barge?  Normal ships might not need one, but I'd want a
>self-destruct on a vessel that could be taken over by hostile forces.

No one said there wasn't one, just that she didn't know how to activate it.
I mean, she made a good point (which I'm sure Navy personnel could answer).
Does a crew member on a destroyer know how to scuttle one?  And even she
knew, would she be authorized.  I mean, from Star Trek, only the major
officers could authorize the destruct sequence.  If they all died, do you
think Dr.  McCoy could have blown the ship?

Besides, would you really want the ship to have the ability to be turned
into a really nasty bomb if hostile forces could take it over before you
could activate the self-destruct?

>3. Why didn't the alien just take over their minds at the end, the same
>way it took over the guy's mind at the beginning?  Really easy way to make
>sure your prey doesn't escape.

It was kinda busy with the the super-blaster.  If a pulse rifle causes it
pain, I bet the turbo-blaster wasn't pleasant.  Besides, they weren't going
anywhere.  It only had to open the door to get them.

>5. (A REAL BIG QUESTION!!!)  Why are these aliens genetically human?
>Where do they come from?  Actually, I suppose they're genetically human so
>the two of them can sleep together when the series comes out.

The Predecessors placed human stock on planets......  OK, so you've heard
that one before, but it is an answer.  And just because they sleep together
doesn't mean they can have children.

>6. (REAL BIG QUESTION II!!)  If this alien is so incredibly dangerous, why
>is it on a prison ship where it can escape?  I'd put it on some airless
>moon somewhere if I didn't want to kill it (for morality reasons).  I
>certainly wouldn't make space travel available to it.

It was dangerous, but their society and its laws had a thing against
killing?  It was in transport to the airless moon?  Or, maybe airless moons
are good real estate for tracking stations, and the corporate owners didn't
want one wasted on the trans-xeno-morph?  Or maybe they didn't consider it
dangerous (i.e., they underestimated it).

>7. How come no one tracked the shuttle's landing?  If it were considered a
>meteorite, it would be a very big one and there would be scientists coming
>after it.  If it was a powered landing, there would be armed forces there
>(the Russians are coming!).  And how about the alien's shuttle?  Someone
>should have tracked it, too.

Primitive Earth technology couldn't track an Imperial Shuttle... OK,
another old line, but so cliche it was taken for granted.  So why was the
Navy there when the space screamer crashed into the ocean?  Um, er, ...
Maybe they didn't have their cloaking device on?

OK, so it was real cliche...  What did you expect from TV, the place where
things go WHHOOOSSSHHH in a vacuum, ships shudder from near misses, and
gravity is always maintained even when all power is drained?

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 19:55:09 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Ripping Apart "Something is Out There"

Me?  Defend this?  Well, the special effects were nice...

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger )  writes:
>1. Simple math error. The genius alien says it's about 5 kilometers to the
>shuttle. When asked for it in miles, she says it's 2 miles. Last I knew, 5
>kilometers was 3.1 miles.

How did they know distances anyway?  Learned from our T.V. shows?  And you
wonder why she didn't know the proper transformation...  And besides, she
weren't no genius.  She said 5 kilometers with a measure of certainity, but
didn't seem so sure about the 2 miles.

>2. When she was abandoning the ship, we heard the alarm system say "4
>minutes to decompression, 10 minutes to turbo-nuclear purge." Okay, what
>the heck is a turbo-nuclear purge?

Hey!  Turbo is the *new* buzz word of science (on T.V.).  I mean, look, all
the new whizzy machines have turbo something on them.  Imagine a
turbo-nuclear reaction (with super-chargers?).

>5. Even more ridiculous, she claims to be human, but doesn't understand
>sex as we know it.

Doesn't understand sex as we know it?  Where did she say that?  Or were you
thinking that the "hero" was thinking about the missionary position when he
looked her over?  He could have been thinking about an, er, "alternate"
position (O.K., flame me for what *I* think is normal).

>6. Why does the creature, which previously moved at incredibly high speeds
>and killed in seconds, stand there and bellow when it finds them in the
>sewers? Oh, right, it wanted to "take her mind". And later, at the labs,
>when it was chasing them, they managed to outrun it? Sure.

Um, when it was playing "Killer Mole" the worker could have out-run it.
Also, in case you didn't notice, they were attempting to shut doors behind
them as they run, even though super-ant pounded through them (that was a
good effect... From monsters eyes we watch as it slams through a couple of
inches of steel door).

>8. How did the creature dispose of enough bulk to fit inside a human, and
>then regain it at will? Right, it curled up real small. I mean, suspension
>of disbelief is one thing, but that's ridiculous.

Compression of tissue into heavier substance?  I mean, is chiton a lot
lighter than muscle?  If it did organic to inorganic transformations, it is
easier yet to compress.  Of course, it might also radiate like a small
nuclear reactor, too.

>9. When it broke into the apartment, why didn't it destroy the pulse
>rifle? It was obviously intelligent.

Wasn't the pulse rifle in the closet, and the closet door closed?  Maybe it
assumed that since no one was home, they were out hunting?  The thing
looked like it was in a hurry, otherwise, why didn't it take out anyone
else in the building?

>10. When it was inside the male scientist's body, it seemed to have
>trouble speaking, yet a few minutes (maybe a couple hours?) later, it was
>using the woman's body completely naturally.

It's powers of imitation increased with each succesive victim.  That's why
it wasn't "human" until later in the show.  Besides, that lady did a "lot"
of talking for it to gather tones and such from.  I'm not sure other
victims got more than a yelp off.

>11. How did the stun pistol blow up the chemical/fuel tanks? Okay, maybe
>it had different settings, like phasers on Star Trek. But how did Jack
>know which one to use?

Stun?  The space lady was trying to blow that thing away.  I'd say it's
last setting was definitely kill!  Jack just used the last setting on the
tanks and lucked out that it wasn't on safety.  Of course, I'm not sure why
you think there was a stun setting.  None of the people hit in the earlier
scene recovered as far as we know.

>12. How could something as big as the alien prison ship ("as big as a
>battleship") hang around in orbit without drawing a lot of attention?

It didn't!  It was in orbit when they went back, because of the alien.
Before it was just in space, and Earth just happened to be within range of
the shuttles (lucky alien)!

>14. Why crash the ship into the ocean? Why not the moon? Why not send it
>into the sun, or deep space (well, maybe the creatures could have taken it
>over in that much time).

Worse yet, why is the ocean going to kill this creature which can burrow
through solid stone?  Won't it just become a fish or something?  Are we
expecting "Jaws XVI - Something's Down There"?

>17. Lastly, why would the normal ships be heading directly toward the
>crash site? I would think that if a UFO the size of a battleship suddenly
>fell out of orbit, the idea would be to proceed with caution, not full
>speed ahead.

Hmmm, if a UFO the size of battleship fell into the ocean, I think the Navy
would be *real* interested, and would want to make sure that no one else
got to it first.  On the other hand, the writers had to come up with some
way for them to be rescued from the middle of the ocean.  It isn't easy to
swim all the way back to shore.  Besides, if it "fell" then it might have
been in trouble, so better send help in case those aliens are "friendly".
Of course, better not send any officers with that help, in case the aliens
aren't "friendly".

>   Well, call me a nitpicker, but these were just to much to overlook,
>either technically or in terms of bad plotting. Did anyone else make the
>mistake of watching this movie? What did you think?

OK... "nitpicker"!

I suppose I could rationalize most of it all away, but I'm not going to say
this was a *great* movie.  It was about what I expected... Another "V".  It
had its good moments, and it had a few not so good moments, and it had some
really stupid moments, but it was TV, so what do you expect?  It's not like
everyone who watches TV is going to worry about the same inconsistancies
that bothered you.

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 19 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 08:27:11 GMT
From: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>> The work is not the author.  The author is not the work.  And making
>> generalizations from one to the other is very hazardous.
> This is a standard Heinlein defense, revived whenever this discussion
> comes up, as it does every year or so.  It is therefore worth dealing
> with it explicitly.



The simplest way to do this is to read _Expanded Universe_, which contains
several pieces of non-fiction in which Heinlein presents *his* views.  They
bear a, shall we say, marked resemblance to some of the views presented in
many of his works.

In general, of course, this is a valid objection.  In Heinlein's case, it
matters little, since the conclusions one can arrive at about RAH's real
opinions by reading his fiction are very similar to what he claims those
opinions actually are.  (Of course he could be deliberately misleading us,
but I think the chance of that is small enough to discount.)

Oops, that should all be cast in the past tense, now, shouldn't it....

uucp: mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp
arpa: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 88 05:48:38 GMT
From: tom@iconsys.uucp (Tom Kimpton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes:
>ccmj@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Claire Jones) writes:
>>That is certainly what DOES happen on Luna in the book, and I don't think
>>there were any plans to change this after the revolution after all, the
>>fuss and nonsense generated by courts would be rather anti the spirit of
>>the revolution).
>I do wish people would read the book they are commenting on.  The colonist
>had an informal court system to prevent people from just being tossed out
>the airlock.  One scene from the book describes just such a court (see
>page 124).

Ah ... but a little further on (p. 130):
   "Stu," I said, "let's take that piece at a time. Are no 'local laws' you
   couldn't be 'put to death' under them.  Your offense was not 'trivial,'
   I simply made allowance for ignorance.  And wasn't done casually, or
   boys would have dragged you to nearest lock to zero pressure, shoved you
   in, and cycled.

Which implies that there could be circumstances under which they (Tish's
stilyagi) would have proceeded without benefit of 'counsel'. 

Tom Kimpton
Software Development Engineer
Icon International, Inc.
Orem, Utah 84058               
(801) 225-6888
UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,caeco,nrc-ut}!iconsys!ron
ARPANET: icon%byuadam.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
BITNET: icon%byuadam.bitnet (multi-user acct)

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 06:36:56 GMT
From: jep@m2-net.uucp (John Ellis Perry Jr.)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

   "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is based on the account of the American
Revolution written by Kenneth Roberts, including "Rabble at Arms" and two
or three other books.  (They should be available at any public library.)
   Many people are taking the philosophies of "Harsh Mistress" with a lot
of hostility.  The libertarianism is taken straight from Thomas Jefferson
and other disreputable individuals who agreed with him.  Professor Bernardo
de la Paz seems to me to be a clone of Benjamin Franklin.  Wyoming Knott
might be Samuel Adams.  Stuart LaJoie is probably Lafayette.  Mike/Adam
Selene is a sort of parody of George Washington; Washington was not all
that much like what people think he was like; he is and was a tremendous
media construction.
   Heinlein did a pretty impressive job of transposing Robert's history
into a science fiction novel.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 17:38:13 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Pro-Heinlein Reactionary Remarks

FDF0017@tntech.BITNET writes:
>I think we are mixing two parts of the Heinlein ideology.

Here is someone defending Heinlein who, unlike certain others, says it's
Heinlein, and not just his characters, who has the ideology.

I would say the debate about "Heinlein's" politics is independent of the
question of whether the plitics are in Heinlein or in the books; at least
it can be conducted in such a fashion.  That it is not so conducted is
unfortunate.  I have not seen any of those who attack Heinlein's critics
for confusing the fiction with Heinlein ever attack any of Heinlein's
defenders for the same mistake.  This creates the impression that they are
opportunists.

>Whether you agree or disagree with him, you have to THINK.

Well, if you agree with him, you may not have to think very much and if you
do not you may say "Why bother?  He's tilted everything towards one side of
the argument."  To me it seems that those who say he makes you think most
often like the general direction of Heinlein's views (or what they think
his views are), despite disagreeing on certain points.  Perhaps they like
thinking ideas of that sort anyway and welcome a chance to do so.

>Possibly it is people who would rather turn off their minds while
>enjoying Science Fiction who object to Heinlein ideas.

That may be true in other possible worlds, but not in this one.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 20:03:36 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

leonard@.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>I have done this. I have noticed that it is impossible to convince a
>>Heinlein fan that Heinlein is not God. That his societies are elitist and
>>right-wing. That _Waldo_ and _Magic, Inc._ were not really very good
>>pieces of literature. Etc.
>
>As for right-wing, your politics are showing. Since when is it wrong for a
>writer to espouse views that you disagree with?

There are three questions.  (1) Are Heinlein's societies right-wing?  (2)
Is right-wing OK?  (3) Is it wrong to espouse views that are not OK?

The quote you are responding to says "it is impossible to convince a
Heinlein fan that ... his socities are ... right-wing."  Note that this is
the first question, with some indications of Kevin's views on the second.
You are answering as if it were the third.

>But I object strongly to *anyone* insisting that *any* author is bad
>because he isn't "idelogically correct".

Kevin isn't saying Heinlein is bad *because* he isn't ideologically
correct; he's saying he's ideologically incorrect (if you will) *and* a bad
writer besides.  Actually, he's not even saying that directly: he's saying
it's impossible to convince Heinlein fans...

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 18:31:07 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>Just because *Mannie* says Free Luna is great is little or no indication
>that Heinlein thinks it is.  

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>True, but if Heinlein writes vigilantist propaganda it may not count all
>that much in his favor that he doesn't really believe in it.

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>There are wheels withing wheels (or cans of worms within cans of worms)
>opened up here.  It may not "count in his favor" that he doesn't beleive.
>But then again, in that case, surely it should not "count against him" if
>he doesn't intend the *reader* to believe.

You are right that things become difficult at this point.  That is a reason
to talk about the books and not about the author: we don't know what he
really intended.  But my point was not that the criticisms of Heinlein or
his books were correct, only that they could not be dismissed so easily.

Nonetheless, in assuming something is propaganda (i.e., that on examining
the evidence we have decided that it is propaganda) we are assuming (we
have decided) that it *was* meant to influence the reader.  You might say
that we never know for sure that something is propaganda -- it might, say,
be an especially ineffective parody -- but if we insist on absolute
certainty on all points we would hardly be able to decide anything at all.

Where your purpose is to get people to say more about the books and be
careful in drawing conclusions about the author, I agree with you.  But the
criticisms are based on the books, and that interpretation of the books
should be dealt with as well.

>Is Twain evil (or perhaps not evil, but whatever-your-favorite-
>perjorative....  fascist, sexist, racist, etc) because some readers think
>Huck Finn is rascist propaganda?

Not because some readers think that.  If all we knew was what some readers
thought, we would know very little indeed.

This exchange reminds me of another:

  A: Star Wars won't work because ...
  B: People said man couldn't survive speeds greater than 60 mph,
     fly, or go to the moon.

Some people find this convincing.  But consider another in the
same form:

  A: Star wars won't work because ...
  B: People said perpetual motion and squaring the circle were
     impossible.

The point is that there are some things in the "..." after "because" that
neither of B's arguments address.  And they are things that determine
whether A is right or wrong.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 19:11:36 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein.. (what an author believes)

rwl@uvacs.CS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Ray Lubinsky) wrote:
>Let's not forget that an author does not only have the words of his
>characters at his disposal to convey his ideals.  The outcome of the plot,
>the degree of editorialization during expository sections, all set the
>stage for the author's beliefs.  In later Heinlein novels (let's say
>"Starship Troopers"), the characters with which we are supposed to
>identify express beliefs that, from the evidence of the world as it is
>shown to us, cannot be anything but correct and therefore held forth for
>our edification and approval.

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) replied:
>This seems to be saying "There is more than the characters expressed
>beliefs to consider, therefore I feel free to take the character's
>expressed beleifs as Heinlein's intended message."

But it's not just saying that there are other things to consider, it's
saying that those things have been set up so the characters are right; and
since it was Heinlein who set things up, he has at least given the
characters an easier time than if he had set them up to be wrong.  The "set
up", moreover, tells us something even without the characters.  It's a kind
of world in which certain views are correct.

>This is simply brushing aside and ignoring cases where a character's
>belief turns out to be WRONG in the context of the story.  This happens
>more frequently than one might suppose from the above quoted section.

I would find your case stronger if the sentence above had not been preceded
by the one before which made it seem that you had misunderstood Ray's
point.

>It is, I claim, FREQUENT in Heinlein's work that the characters state some
>extreme (and oversimplified) position, and the events warn us that things
>aren't as simple as the character may have thought.

Things are often somewhat muddy.  It's hard to argue for mud, and often
less fun, so I'll make my task easier by omitting all the details.

An author can design worlds or otherwise write in such a way that certain
ideas are true, are held by all good people (where good does not just mean
that one holds those ideas), or otherwise get favorable treatment.  That
certain views are not shown as totally correct does not mean that are not
shown to be the roughly the right kind of views or to be tending in the
right direction.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 23:31:14 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> BREEBAAR@hlerul5.BITNET writes:
> >HEINLEIN AND SEXISM > >This is even more ridiculous....
> In all the Heinlein novels I have ever read, the men are in charge.

We can assume that Kevin has not read Friday or The Number of the Beast,
then.

I think though, that their is a more serious confusion here.  Just
portraying Males as dominant is not sexist!  If the women are not portrayed
as any less of individuals, nor any less capable of dominating, then they
are not in a sexist novel.  Just showing one "sex kitten" does not make a
novel sexist if being a "sex kitten" is not portrayed as the norm.

Nota Bene, Heinlein's treatment of prostitution is not sexist either.  It
is an individual vocation, chosen by the individual, and is not regarded as
demeaning in that culture.

In Time Enough for Love, Heinlein does a lot of "I want your baby,
Lazarus".  This is a peculiar trait of a society built by rewarding good
breeding choices and is fully treated as such.

Overall, I don't think Heinlein could have been characterized as sexist in
his writing.  Perhaps, some of his earlier writing, but even there it is
hard to pull what was proforma for the period/genre from what was Heinlein.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 05:36:54 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Ah, yes. Criticize a book that has a lot of fan following and get accused
>of having never read the book.
  
No, all you have to do is make 180 degrees wrong assertions about things
which can be objectively verified by reading the book. As opposed to just
making blanket statements about a book or writer without any supporting
evidence, which can be considered even worse...

>I've read this book twice.
  
Yeah! Once to "pick out" the "fascist bits" and once for "Sexism".

>They lived in fear of the airlock. Cardinal Sin #1 was being impolite,
>which netted you death. The society's outward "safety" for women and
>children was due to:
  
As has been mentioned, sentences one and two are utter crap. As for number
three and your evaluation following...

>1) Men having an extremely dominant position. Women were rare, so men
>fought over them. Women were not "worshiped" -- they were *objects* of
>value and treated as such.
  
Extremely dominant? Mannies sure was the head of the family, along with the
rest of the husbands. Sure, and we here in Finland live in a sand desert!
(Gotta get me a sun helmet:-) The fact that Mannie does not put Wyoh on a
pedestal or knuckle under in some other way, is made special note of, and
Wyoh is a bit disconcerted to find Mannie so secure as to actually consider
himself an equal. Men did not generally fight over women. THE WOMAN
DECIDED.  Stuart LeJoie got roughed up by the Stilyagi because of cultural
differences not because they were in any way fighting for her. For her
honor, maybe, for her, NEIN! NJET! NO WAY! If You really did read the book,
you should have noted the simple english sentences that spelled out, that
the Stilyagi were so naive, and unaccustomed to "dirtside" manners that
they thought Stu was engaging in the preliminary stages of RAPE. There was
fighting over women in the early days of the prison colony, but that was
self-defeating and the system in which women were on top developed. Very
much like Australia which, by the way is a more true comparison than
America to Luna, and which was one of the first countries to give women the
vote.

>2) Strict order due to terror-tactics vigilante "justice." The trains may
>run on time, but this does not mean the society is utopian.
  
Hmm. Sounds more like mutual-assured-destruction-STRATEGY to me than
terror- tactics, considering elimination was not often exercised, meant you
had to take care of the chums (or fems) debts and dependants, and ran the
risk of being eliminated by any or all the people who knew the guy, and
knew you acted without cause. As for being "vigilante justice" you are flat
wrong.  Vigilante justice means groups of citizens deciding that the
officials supposedly protecting you are not acting up to mark, and
organizing patrols to that end. Elimination was spontaneous, and did not go
over any peace- keeping office or constitutional guarantee. Loonies were
not Citizens, and if you think the wardens troops made any effort to
protect even those who had done their term, you've got another frontal lobe
coming. Even lynching- mob does not qualify simply because there were no
lawkeepers. After the revolution mind you, they finally got to making
spittin on the slidewalks illegal, and a real life rapist deserving due
process (in theory at least, those air-locks are tricky things, and it is
easy to slip on those slide-walks :-)
  
The society is not utopian -- It works!

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 24 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 14:29:32 GMT
From: xxx612@unh.uucp (Paul A. Sand)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
> Here is something you left out when quoting the article you responded
> to:
> 
>    In the struggle for understanding between the sexes, Robert
>    Heinlein is not helping.
> 
> That, I would say, is what you really have to answer.

Well, I'll try. "Understanding between the sexes" is one of those idiotic
phrases that means less and less the more you think about it.  Only *a
person* can understand. And generally, a person will understand some other
individuals, partially understand some others, and still others (perhaps
most) will be a total mystery. Sex has little to do with it. (Except
insofar as it is a motive to *want* to understand someone else.)

So Jeff: "Heinlein" (should be "Reading Heinlein") will help *you* better
understand *some* people. I promise. But reading Heinlein will not make you
understand everyone. (Show me an author who will, please.)

But more to the point: it is (was, sigh) not Heinlein's purpose in writing
to "help" in any "struggle". You want that stuff, read the Nation, or
National Review. (Depending.)

Paul A. Sand
University of New Hampshire
UUCP: uunet!unh!xxx612     
Internet: unh!xxx612@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 11:40:56 GMT
From: amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>I have done this. I have noticed that it is impossible to convince a
>Heinlein fan that Heinlein is not God. That his societies are elitist and
>right-wing. That _Waldo_ and _Magic, Inc._ were not really very good
>pieces of literature. Etc.
You bloody git. 


In fact, we arent even talking about those two.
Stop bringing up differing stories.

In fact, I dont remember anyone saying that Heinlein wrote good literature.

He wrote good *stories*. I've always had more of an impression of him as
a traveling minstrel, telling tall tales with morals. That doesn't mean
he believed the morals... most traveling minstrels will tell you that they
recite/play what sells, not necessarily what is good. But they try to make
it good in the process. 

The characters that Heinlein used to narrate his stories *are* elitist. And
Damn Proud of it, too!  They believe that their way is best no matter what.
And they all believe in the society they live in.  So the societies are all
presented in an elitist way. This may well mean that Heinlein was elitist.
It may also mean he preferred to write about elitists, since they are easy
to characterize - they have strong views, they will declaim about their
views (at length... in real life, too!), and they will take action to
defend their views.

I like elitist snobs. They don't sit around maundering about what will
happen if they do something George doesn't like. They try to figure out a)
if they care what George thinks, b) if George will or won't like it, c)
whether or not to kill George if he makes too much trouble, and then they
will go do what they want. BUT THEY DO SOMETHING!!!!!

Ha... uh huh, I can hear it. "But Lazarus Long is supposed to be this
quintessential, competent, Man of Action, and all he does all through the
books is sit around and brag about what he has done!!! He never does
anything."

I will leave the essential contradiction in that sentence as an exercise
for the people who aren't having attacks of High Blood Pressure from
watching me defend Heinlein.

Heinlein's characters and societies are *not* utopian.  I don't know if
they are right wing... I am color blind to politics. From what I have read
on the net, most people seem to think that a consensus of his politics and
policies would turn up Libertarian.

Heinlein's characters and societies are elitist. But here I will be the
exception that proves the rule. I don't think Heinlein was {gG}od. He was
{gG}od's biographer.

Lazarus Long is GOd. Long may he live. 

I'm not even going to *bother* with the sexist argument. I am sick of it.

P.S. Weren't you the twit who posted a term paper about _Harsh_Mistress_
about a year or so ago, purporting to explain why everyone who thinks the
book is good is wrong? I saved that debate. Maybe I should repost it. All
of it. All at once.

amq

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 11:20:45 GMT
From: c60a-4bq@web8e.berkeley.edu
Subject: Robert A. HeinLein

   I'm glad to have revived or restarted discussions on Mr. Heinlein,
before he passed away.  He and few others have uplifted Science Fiction to
a respected literature, now recognized as Speculative Fiction.  Even those
"morally" outraged by his writings cannot disagree from this fact.  I hope,
he finds a satisfactory answer to all the unanswerable questions.. I wish
that the mediator could hold a day of mourning for the Grand Master of
Spec-Fi, and leave the board silent for a day..  But maybe it is too much
to ask..

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 15:59:19 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>The problem that would arise in Heinlein "polite" societies [the armed
>society of Beyond This Horizon, the anarchism of The Moon is a Harsh
>Mistress] is that it leaves lots of scope for bullies to operate.

Hmm. This MIGHT be the case, but I certainly have trouble seeing it...
  
In such "polite societies" ganging up would be severely frowned upon, and
likely as not, people would SPONTANEOUSLY get together and teach the guys a
short lesson in dying. This certainly was mentioned in Moon Is A Harsh
Mistress, in the guise of a dirtside mob-leader swiftly being given a lot
of room to operate--on the other side of the air-lock...
  
As for societies in which duelling is actively--even though covertly--
encouraged (Beyond This Horizon) a'la Code Duello, a bully would be
harassed by "men of honor" (cf. Cyrano de Bergerac of the play, he WAS both
harassed, and clearly deficient in the area of courtesy, if not wit).

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi       
+358-0-719755 (sic!)           

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 12:53:09 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: RAH, In Memoriam

What about the great short story "By His Bootstraps"?  That does not seem
to be in your list.  I thought it was one of Heinlein's finest.

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 15:30:12 GMT
From: tse@cory.berkeley.edu (Gary Tse)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>The fixed "elections" are a far right-wing fascist tactic that the
>protagonists use *in the book*.

WRONG.  Fixed elections are not BY DEFINITION a "far right-wing fascist
tactic".  It is fair for Mr. Cherkauer to call the rebels (in _The_Moon_
Is_A_Harsh_Mistress_) whatever he feels like.  That's his opinion.
However, it is wrong for him to claim AS FACT that the rebels are "far
right...".  It is even worse for him to TRY to convince us that Heinlein is
X because he advocates X in his writing.
 
>A military takeover is a classic extremist tactic used by many radical
>groups throughout history -- many times far-right radical groups -- and is
>the method used *in the book*.

What are you trying to say?  That because most military takeovers are by
far-right radical groups, the rebels in _Harsh_Mistress_ are therefore
far-right-...?  This assertion sounds kind of silly, doesn't it?

>Note: Heinlein used to take out full page ads in, I believe, the New York
>Times promoting the Viet Nam War while that war was being fought. Yes,
>just bought full pages so he could make his right-wing views public in
>that sort of forum. These are obviously *strongly held* right-wing views.

Is there something wrong with this?  I would think that this goes right
under freedom of speech.

Look, regardless of his politics, Heinlein is a very entertaining writer.
Most of us are open-minded enough to enjoy his novels.  Apparently Mr.
Cherkauer is not.

Gary Tse
tse@cory.berkeley.edu
..!ucbvax!cory!tse

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 88 15:12:59 GMT
From: markb@encore.uucp (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: The Green Hills of Earth

nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU writes:
>    In his short story "The Green Hills of Earth", Heinlein included
>several excerpts from a poem by the same name.  Did Heinlein actually
>finish the poem, or did he just write the portions in the story?  If not
>Heinlein, then it strikes me as very likely that various fans have written
>their own completions.  I would greatly appreciate hearing about any
>completions anyone out there may know about.  Thank you.

   This will be a little long, since there's a lot to the answer.
Apologies to those who think I'm cluttering up net space with personal
bragging, but I just can't resist in this case.

   No, Heinlein never finished the poem himself, to my knowledge.  Yes,
there have been several fannish versions.  I've heard that at one Worldcon
several years ago, there was a contest to see who could come up with the
most disgusting tune for it.  The winner was the Coke jingle "I'd Like to
Teach the World to Sing."  (It works horribly well on the chorus, with the
added refrain "It's the real thing / Earth is / What you're hoping to find
/ When you're reading Heinlein . .")

  On the serious side, there's a ballad version by Juanita Coulson that's
been around for quite a while and (here's the personal part) a version I
wrote in 1978, and had the chance to perform for Mr. Heinlein in 1979.  To
my great pleasure, he liked it.  I have no way of putting the tune here
(nor the chords, since I don't play guitar), but here are the lyrics I
used:

   The arching sky is calling spacemen back to their trade
   "All hands!  Stand by!  Free falling!" and the lights below us fade
   Out ride the sons of Terra, far drives the thundering jet
   Out leaps the race of Earthmen, out far and onward yet

   CHORUS: We pray for one last landing on  
   	   The globe that gave us birth
           Let us rest our eyes on the fleecy skies
           And the cool, green hills of Earth

   We've sailed the endless vacuum, seen many wondrous things
   From the harsh, bright soil of Luna, to great Saturn's rainbow rings
   We've tried each spinning space mote and reckoned its true worth
   Take us back again to the homes of men and the cool green hills of Earth

   CHORUS: Ni pregas finan surteron che
           La globo kiu naskis nin
           Permitu nin vida la lanetz-plenaj chieloj
           Kai la malvarmaj verdaj montetoj de tero

   My final watch is over, my travels nearing their end
   And my only wish is to feel home soil beneath me once again
   Let the sweet fresh breezes heal me as they rove around the girth
   Of our lovely mother planet, of the cool green hills of earth

   CHORUS: same as first chorus

   NOTES: Except for the first line of the second verse and the first two
lines of the third verse, all words are adapted from the story.  The second
chorus is an inexact (and probably badly misspelled, since I haven't
actually looked at a written version of the lyrics in years) translation
into Esperanto.  This was inspired by a line from the story, roughly "You
might have sung it in French, or German.  Or it may have been Esperanto, as
Terra's rainbow banner rippled over your head."  I left out the lines from
the story beginning "We rot in the molds of Venus . ." because I was trying
to write an anthem, and anthems don't generally contain direct attacks on
neighbors.  And yes, the tune is flexible enough that it *does* scan when
sung, honest!

   I'm curious to know what other versions are out there.  I hope there are
more follow-ups.

Mark Bernstein
Encore Computer

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 02:28:17 GMT
From: c8-rl@franny.berkeley.edu (Tom Newcomb -READER-)
Subject: In memory of Robert A. Heinlein

Excerpts from ~The Notebooks of Lazarus Long~ by   Robert A. Heinlein

A fake fortuneteller can be tolerated.  But an authentic one should be shot
on sight.  Cassandra did not get half the kicking around she deserved.

A poet who reads his verse in public may have other nasty habits.

What a wonderful world it is that has girls in it!

A "pacifist male" is a contradiction in terms.  Most self-described
"pacifists" are not pacific; they simply assume false colors.  When the
wind changes, they hoist the Jolly Roger.

Of all the strange crimes that human beings have legislated out of nothing,
"blasphemy" is the most amazing--with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure"
fighting it out for second and third place.

Money is a powerful aphrodisiac.  But flowers work almost as well.

There is only one way to console a widow.  But remember the risk.

Everything in excess!  To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks.

An elephant: a mouse built to government specifications.

The more you love, the more you CAN love--and the more intensely you love.
Nor is there any limit on how MANY you can love.  If a person had time
enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.

Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy.

Never crowd youngsters about their private affairs--sex especially.  When
they are growing up, they are nerve ends all over, and resent (quite
properly) any invasion of their privacy.  Oh, sure, they'll make
mistakes--but that's THEIR business, not your's.  (You made your own
mistakes, did you not?)

Never frighten a little man.  He'll kill you.

Touch is the most fundamental sense.  A baby experiences it, all over,
before he is born and long before he learns to use sight, hearing, or
taste, and no human ever ceases to need it.  Keep your children short on
pocket money--and long on hugs.

Be wary of strong drink.  It can make you shoot at tax collectors-- and
miss.

Never try to outstubborn a cat.

Tilting at windmills hurts you more than the windmills.

Yield to temptation--it may not pass your way again.

The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: "Of course it is none
of my business but--" is to place a period after the word "but."  Don't use
excessive force in supplying such a moron with a period.  Cutting his
throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.

A man does not insist on physical beauty in a woman who builds up his
morale.  After a while he realizes that she IS beautiful-- he just hadn't
noticed it at first.

A "practical joker" deserves applause for his wit according to its quality.
Bastinado is about right.  For exceptional wit one might grant keelhauling.
But staking him out on an anthill should be reserved for the very wittiest.

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily.  All other "sins" are
invented nonsense.  (Hurting yourself is not sinful-- just stupid.)

Climate is what we expect, weather is what we get.

A committee is a life form with six or more legs and no brain.

"I came, I saw, she conquered."  (The original Latin seems to have been
garbled.)

I hope you all enjoyed them.

Tom Newcomb
c8-rl@franny.Berkeley.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 20:35:05 GMT
From: stan@sdba.uucp (Stan Brown)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

I can't even begin to say enogh good things about this gentleman!

He was a truly GREAT writer.  He had a MOST profound effect on my life.
When I was growing up this man's books WERE Science Fiction as I saw it.
All others had to stand the test of being compared to his works.

I really desired to live in his worlds.  Most especially the ones of _The
Green Hills Of Earth_ & others set about this time.

_Time Enough For Love_ has to be one of the best books ever written.  I was
also very affected by _Stranger In A Strange Land_ .

The world is a much poorer place without him.  May he go to be in a
peaceful place.

Stan Brown
S. D. Brown & Associates
404-292-9497
gatech!sdba!stan

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 24 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 175

Today's Topics:

	 Books - Brust & Card (2 msgs) & Clarke & Dick (4 msgs) &
                 Eco & Erickson & Lewis & Wild Cards &
                 Some Questions & Some Answers

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 17:47:03 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust

oleg@gryphon.CTS.COM (Oleg Kiselev) writes:

> Bolk's goal seemed to have something to do with limiting Verra's power,
> encouraging whatever it was that inhabited the Palace, and helping along
> the chosen hero.  Also, recall that Bolk was feedings on _something_ that
> came from Miklos (or am I mis-remembering?)...

Bolk's "feeding" was not feeding per se. He claimed to gain sustenance from
helping people who needed his help, in this case Miklos (at last, a name
for this guy!)

Let's also not forget that Verra, the Demon Goddess, knew Bolk by name and
claimed that they had once been allies. I suppose that this could be an
oblique reference to Fenarr, since legend had it that he brought the statue
back from Faerie with him after Bolk or another Taltos horse helped him
force peace on the elves (Dragaerans).

Then again, perhaps the relationship goes back much further than that. I
still like to speculate about the who the demons are. I found my copy of
_Brokedown Palace_ and there are at least three references to Brigitta's
mother marrying/consorting with a demon and at one point Brigitta has a
very bad memory of her father bringing his friends around to visit (we can
only speculate what that involved) and taunting her mother by appearing to
her in his true form. At one point, Miklos wonders why they call Verra the
Demon Goddess.  The obvious guess is that she is, in fact, a demon in one
form or another.  Bolk could be too, for that matter, or at least some
creature related to the demons.

Then again, I haven't read _Taltos_ yet so maybe there are some answers
there.

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 21:51:06 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Card's book not a ripoff

Your comments on _A Planet Called Treason_ are very good.  While some
writers do rip off one another, _A Planet Called Treason_ may have been
inspired by _A Planet Named Shayol_ but wasn't a rip off.

I was a CMU student 12 years ago.  My husband graduated in 1977 and we both
have fond memories of of CMU.  I suspect the computer department has
changed radically since then.  I remember vividly watching students bring
their trays of computer cards to the IBM 360 card readers.  Meanwhile, in
the same building, some of us would hack our way into the newest "toy," a
nifty computer system called PLATO that was connected to a self-teaching
system at the University of Illinois.  By the end of my first semester, the
demand on the PLATO was so high (and mostly for playing Star Trek, a
strictly "off limits" game) that the room was locked for all except a few
students in one class.

Laurie Mann
Stratus Computer
M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd,
Marlboro, MA  01752
617-460-2610 
Internet:  lmann@jjmhome.UUCP
UUCP:  harvard!anvil!es!mann

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 21:39:24 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Card's book not a ripoff

cs201100@usl-pc.UUCP (Karen Davis):
>>>I didn't see anybody mention _A Planet Called Treason_ by OSC.
>>I have a copy but haven't managed to read it yet.  It reminded
>>me of Cordwainer Smith's "A Planet Named Shayol" I was
>>kind of annoyed that Card was apparently ripping off Smith.

llkl@ur-tut (L Kleiner ):
>Wow, this artical really knocked the wind out of my sails....
>Here I thought Card was being terribly original and inventive,
>and it turns out he just ripped off a good story!
>
>Has anyone actually read both of these books?

It's not a ripoff.  He was being original and inventive.  The only relevant
parallel is that both works involved a prison planet.  Sort of like calling
"Papillon" a ripoff of "The Count of Monte Cristo".

It does appear, however, that you haven't read Cordwainer Smith.  Go out
and do so immediately!  Card's book was great fun; Smith's was great.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 10:33:12 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Clarke (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

pete@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Kendell) writes:
>I can foresee that this universe will be in trouble soon
>either because of the Hermians or further Ramas.

It was mentioned in this newsgroup last year that Clarke had been
contracted to write a sequel, so we should soon find out.

He has also recently delivered a book for a film called "Cradle" and
another book with the provisional title of "Astounding Days".

I have no more information than that. Has anyone else heard anything?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 23:11:10 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: help on Philip K. Dick

hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>Also, if you're a Philip K.  Dick enthusiast, can you recommend for me any
>studies on Dick's works? Are there any books about Dick or collections of
>essays on his works?

There are a few, the best of which is 'Only Apparently Real--The World of
Philip K. Dick' by Paul Williams.  This book is mostly transcribed
interviews with PKD, and very illuminating.  The Bibliography in there is
decent, as well.  This book was a runner-up to 'The Trillion-Year Spree'
for Best Non-Fiction in the Hugos last year.

TK Graphics put out an interesting essay by Angus Taylor entitled 'Philip
K.  Dick and the Umbrella of Light', though I do not know if it's still
available

Starmont Reader's Guide #12 is devoted to Dick, and has some good essays by
Dr. Hazel Pierce.

>P.S.  It seems like Dick really likes stories about Policemen who always
>get dicked over (no pun)... from reading this and _Flow My Tears_.

This may have to do with his having his house broken into (allegedly by the
police or the FBI) and having supposedly subversive documents stolen.  At
any rate, Dick was never fond of Authority.

As for Mercerism, I'll leave that for someone else...

Jim Freund
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 18:46:46 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: UBIK (originally something about "hard SF vs literature")

Speaking of Ubik, has anyone ever read PKD's screenplay for same?  If so,
how was it, and do you know where I may order/buy a copy from?

Jim Freund
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 18:54:41 GMT
From: tneff@dasys1.uucp (Tom Neff)
Subject: Re: UBIK

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu.UUCP (Robert Firth) writes:
>I get something new out of it at every reading.  However, it seems to me
>you have very little chance of understanding much of [UBIK] unless you
>have read the Bardo Thodol, the so-called 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'.
>Other sources that might help are the Gnostic gospels, Schopenhauer's
>'Welt als Wille und Vorstellung', and some of Dick's other works,
>especially Three Stigmata...

Oh, now let's not go overboard.  Perhaps it helps a certain academic
appreciation of Dick to raid his philosophy bookshelf, but you can get
plenty out of his works, including UBIK, with nary a Tibetan stanza under
your belt.  He is a wonderful exponent of his own ideas, and needs no
footnotes to make a point.  The only portion of the above that I'll go
along with is that it helps to have read something else of his first,
because his personal style and worldview take some getting used to and UBIK
lays them on thick.

I usually suggest that SF fans who don't know Dick start with MAN IN THE
HIGH CASTLE or SOLAR LOTTERY or TIME OUT OF JOINT to find out where the
man's coming from in SF terms, and to get used to some of his underlying
themes.  Then it's OK to move on to FLOW MY TEARS, UBIK, VALIS and the
other "advanced stuff."

Tom Neff
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tneff

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 21:32:06 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re:  Hard SF and Literary Quality

donn@CS.UTAH.EDU (Donn Seeley) writes:
>I'll admit my biases up front: UBIK is one of my all-time favorite novels,
>and I think it has high literary quality.  I'll try to explain why I like
>it, and why I think some books require a different kind of reader than
>others.

I'd like to thank you for a fine article.  It's the sort of thing that
keeps me reading SF-Lovers.

>weakness he somehow manages to find strength.  The last two pages of the
>novel are a devilish trick that turns the novel on its head -- and yet it
>stays the same...

I sometimes think Dick has a weakness for "trick" endings.  I'm not that
Ubik is an example of this, buit it can happen.  Nonetheless, the last page
or so tends not to greatly change what I think of the rest.

Jeff Dalton
AI Applications Institute
Edinburgh University
JANET: J.Dalton@uk.ac.ed             
ARPA:  J.Dalton%uk.ac.ed@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
UUCP:  ...!ukc!ed.ac.uk!J.Dalton

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 03:50:18 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

soren@reed.UUCP writes:
>Have you read Umberto Eco's *The Name of the Rose*?  It has a "likeably,
>decent protagonist"; it may or may not be optimistic (damn if I can tell,
>it isn't something I particularly look for), and the whole concept of
>technophobia kinda gets thrown out the window since its set in the Middle
>ages.  It's also gotten fantastic reviews from all (or anyway, most) of
>the Right People.

Yeah. And the thing Umberto Eco specifically shoots for, in his books, and
promotes in literature in general, is the Semiotic Jackpot.
  
In an analogy to buildings, a Semiotic Jackpot is a book which has all
floors from the ground up, and they are occupied. A pure entertainment book
would be a one story house. A totally null book, just the cellar, and your
typical Hi-Lit book a castle built on clouds. Although The Name of the Rose
did get good reviews initially, the hi-lit kneejerks have been revising
their estimate of it, after it turned out to be too popular. The book once
thought to be so meaningful, is getting accusations of shallowness. No
doubt some day in the near future some Kevin Cherkauer, will completely
nihilize him as a writer of substance...  

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 20:59:30 GMT
From: csvsj@garnet.berkeley.edu (Steve Jacobson)
Subject: RUBICON BEACH, by Steve Erickson

If you think GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is the greatest science fiction work of all
time, read RUBICON BEACH.

If you told your friends to read DAHLGREN, read RUBICON BEACH.

If you acknowledge the genius evidenced by the amphetimine trinity - THREE
STIGMATA..., UBIK, and MARTIAN TIME-SLIP, read RUBICON BEACH.

If you agree that William Gibson rocks, read RUBICON BEACH.

There is more than one way to make sense - RUBICON BEACH is one of those
other ones.

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 88 00:23:55 GMT
From: cjh@petsd.uucp (Chris Henrich)
Subject: literary criticism

From time to time, rec.arts.sf-lovers fills up with heated debate about the
merits of various s.f. authers, or of the whole genre of s.f.  A common
assumption is that the two sides, wehatever they are, are logically
exclusive.  For instance, if Gene Wolfe is good, then Piers Anthony can't
be any good; or if science fiction is worthwhile then general literature
is not.  When the discussion spills over into rec.arts.books, it becomes
even more confused.

I think that the ideas of C. S. Lewis would clear the air and lower the
temperature in these groups.  These can be found in his little book
_An_Experiment_in_Criticism_, and in his essay "High and Low Brows." Some
of the essays in _On_Stories_ overlap with _Experiment_.

Lewis's "experiment" was to make a distinction between two kinds of
reading, which I might put briefly as attentive vs. slovenly reading, and
make this the basis of distinctions between books.  For him, a good book is
one that invites and rewards attentive reading.  While this distinction
seems very important to Lewis, he takes a few sly digs at the "vigilant"
kind of reviewer and critic.

"High and Low Brows" is an inquiry into the true nature of the distinction,
often felt and variously expressed, between high literary art and "mere
entertainment."  Examples, pertinent to the genre of science fiction, might
be Gene Wolfe and Piers Anthony.  Lewwis finds that the criterion people
seem to be using is not what you might expect.  Again, there are some
quietly humorous sallies at the literary puritans.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
MS 322
Concurrent Computer Corporation
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
...!rutgers!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 02:53:18 GMT
From: sundance@pawl17.pawl.rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold)
Subject: Re: Pick a world, any world.

mok@pawl2.pawl.rpi.edu (Mok Jag) writes:
>JDRUMMEY@wpi.BITNET writes:
>>The universe of the Wild Cards would be interesting, to say the least,
>>but I wouldn't want to chance ending up as a normal human.  That would be
>>MUCH too boring!
>
>   It may be boring to be a normal human, but that's better than being a
>joker!

  Or worse yet, to draw the Black Queen. I've finally finished Wild Cards
and have started on Aces High. I loved Jokers' Wild (read it a few months
ago).
  The most intriguing character to me is Croyd Crenton. It's a wonder the
man isn't a raving lunatic like C.C. Ryder. He sees the world from every
perspective (white man, black man, joker) I'm surprised that he wasn't
shown as a woman. Would be interesting.
  The second most interesting to me is Yeoman. Like the Turtle, he makes do
with what he has, and he does incredibly.

Mitchell Gold
BITNET: sundance@RPITSMTS
ARPA:  sundance@{pawl|mts}.rpi.edu
       mitch@{paraguay|uruguay}.acm.rpi.edu
UUCP: {uunet!steinmetz|rutgers}!itsgw!{paraguay|uruguay|brazil}!mitch

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 04:03:20 GMT
From: jellinghaus-robert@cs.yale.edu (Rob Jellinghaus)
Subject: Let's see what the net knows.

I have some questions that I hope the rest of you can help me with:

1) When is Stephen Donaldson's _A Man Rides Through_ coming out in
   paperback?
2) When is Orson Scott Card's _Red Prophet_ coming out in paperback?

3) How often does Card plan to release the next four parts of the Maker
   series? 
4) What ever happened to Robert Sheckley?  What has he written recently?
5) What about William Gibson's screenplay for _Aliens III_?
6) What about the _Neuromancer_ computer game?

Here's hoping that all you thousands (?) of readers have a clue about this
stuff...

Rob Jellinghaus
jellinghaus-robert@CS.Yale.EDU
ROBERTJ@{yalecs,yalevm}.BITNET
...!ihnp4!hsi!yale!robertj

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 16:33:00 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Let's see what the net knows.

>1) When is Stephen Donaldson's _A Man Rides Through_ coming out in
>   paperback? 

Probably 1st Quarter 89. Maybe by Christmas, but I wouldn't count on it.
The first book took a little over a year to reach paperback, this one
probably won't happen any faster, and the new hardback was released in
February, I believe.

>2) When is Orson Scott Card's _Red Prophet_ coming out in paperback?

Red Prophet hit hardcover this winter. Again, figure about a year, so
sometime after Christmas.

>3) How often does Card plan to release the next four parts of the Maker
>   series? 

The normal publishing schedule is one book a year, more or less. Card's
fairly heavily committed, and I'm not sure he can keep to a book a year
schedule on it.

>4) What ever happened to Robert Sheckley?  What has he written recently?

He's published a book in the last few months, but I can't, for the life of
me, remember the name offhand. It got mixed to negative reviews on the net,
so I didn't read it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 88 11:07:44 GMT
From: milne@ics.uci.edu (Alastair Milne)
Subject: Re: Story/book request

You may find the story is "Ten Years to Doomsday".  It involves a Terran
empire having to prepare a relatively primitive planet for the arrival of
invaders from outside the Terran sphere of influence.  The planet is rather
an interesting one, and it worships a Mother goddess, so Mother is in
almost every curse, imprecation, or decree you hear: "In Mother's holy
name, so be it spoken ..."; "Mother-lorn" is equivalent to "God-forsaken";
"Mother's milk" is an assassin's poison; "Mother's gentle discipline" is
the interrogation by the high priests; etc., etc.

Very amusing book, though hardly a classic.  It had, as I recall, two
authors, but Kurland may indeed be the name of one of them -- I have no way
of finding the book to be sure.

Hope this helps.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 24 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Resnick & Saberhagen & Updike &
                          Varley & Zelazny (5 msgs) & 
                          SF Sports (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 17:55:41 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Humans vs. the Galaxy

nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU writes:
> The other is "Birthright, the Book of Man", by Mike Resnick.  Lots of
> people have recently been discussing Resnick without mentioning this, his
> best book!

This book is one of the least readable books I have ever come across. I was
able to finish it, but only because I was expecting something more from
Resnick. I haven't read anything else of his since then.

The science is (as you say) so bad it makes you gag.

The characterisation of humans is completely out of left field. There
wasn't a single sympathetic human character in the entire book. If I didn't
know better I'd say that Resnick could only know humans from the alien
encyclopedia he quotes.

The only possible niche for this book is poorly written propoganda.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 22:47:11 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Magician's Law

michael@stb.UUCP (Michael) writes:
> Actually, between the Swords books and the EMpire of the EAst, it was
> made very clear. The setting is EARTH, of the very far future--so far in
> the future that the laws of nature aren't the same as they are now.

And in the last segment of EotE, the event that changed the laws of nature
was spelled out, and the origin of Ardneh and Orcus (among other things).
Not all *that* far in the future, btw.

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 23:36:11 GMT
From: cjh@petsd.uucp (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Roger's Version, by John Updike

In the most recent net.donnybrook over the merits of various science
fiction writers, somebody asserted that science fiction is a "literature of
ideas."  The context, I think, was a defense of the genre against the
accusation that it is weak in characterization.  I was reminded of all this
while reading _Roger's Version_; for this *is* a novel of ideas, with
complex and lifelike characters as well.

Roger Lambert is a professor in the Divinity School of some Ivy League
university (not named, but similar to Harvard).  He is approached by a
young, rather gauche, computer expert named Dale Kohler.  Dale hopes to put
together a program, synthesizing recent discoveries in various physical
sciences, that will triumphantly vindicate Christian (or, at least,
Theistic) belief.

Dale becomes involved in the lives of Roger and his family, in complex
ways.  The most important subplot (some would call it the main plot) has to
do with Roger's niece Verna, who is living on welfare, an unmarried mother,
in a part of town that scares Roger.  Her predicament is convincingly and
poignantly described.  Dale tries to befriend Verna, and bullies Roger into
helping her.  After a stressful Thanksgiving dinner at the Lamberts', Dale
seems to embark on an adulterous affair with Roger's wife Esther.  Just for
completeness' sake, he tutors their young son in math.

Roger's reluctant attempt to rescue Verna does not go well.  Verna does not
really want to be rescued, at least on Roger's terms.  This part of the
plot is resolved almost in spite of his intentions.

Meanwhile, Dale continues with his theological project.  I will only hint
at its denouement by quoting, "He's not a *tame* lion."

As fiction about science, this book seems to me to rate very high.  The
things that Dale wants to adduce as evidence are current science, or
current scientific speculation; Updike represents them accurately.  (I
think the science is current as of about 1984; of course many details may
have changed since then.  This is especially true in the more speculative
kind of cosmology.) The computer programming scene is also well drawn.  I'd
say that Updike could qualify as a leading writer of "hard sf" if he wants
to.

As fiction about people, RV leaves me a little dissatisfied.  There are
some steamy scenes describing the love affair between Dale and Roger's
wife.  While most of the book is first-person narrative, form Roger's
viewpoint, and in the past tense, these scenes are third-person,
present-tense; they seem to be what Roger surmises is going on.  He's
probably right.  But apparently Updike means us to be uncertain about this.
The minor sub-plot concerning 12-year-old Ritchie (Roger's son) got me
riled up to no purpose; the Lamberts are "programming" their son for
failure, but I don't see why.  These are minor matters; what we have here
is a hell of a good novel.

Regards,

Christopher J. Henrich
MS 322
Concurrent Computer Corporation
106 Apple St
Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
(201) 758-7288
...!rutgers!petsd!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 17:42:52 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Varley: Eight Worlds versus "Barbie Murders"

 mc%asuipf.DECnet@SPACVAX.RICE.EDU ("ASUIPF::MC") writes:
> Sorry, but the universe of "Blue Champagne"... *not* the Eight Worlds
> universe from THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE... both from internal evidence...  and
> a letter by Varley in a mid-70's issue of GALAXY.

Actually, I assumed that it was from earlier in the same universe. The
society definitely feels related. You'd have to have at least that big a
spacefaring society to survive isolation from earth, and there does seem to
be lots of social trends and stuff that seem to carry over.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 16:11:34 GMT
From: psm@mdbs.uucp (Steve Murphy)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
>Sorry, but you've got it a bit wrong there.  First of all, it was not
>Merlin's blood, but Martin's, shed by Brand which created the Black Road.
>While Corwin's curse may have helped, it did not create the road, only the
>damage to the Pattern could do that.
>
>Another interesting point is whether Merlin can walk Corwin's pattern
>since he was born before it existed, whereas Oberon, etc, all were born
>after Dworkin drew the first Pattern.

I think the issue here is direct descent, Merlin is Corwin's direct
descendent, hence, he can walk the new Pattern.  Which, if true, means that
anyone of the House of Amber should be able to walk the Logrus, being that
Amber is actually a rebel house of Chaos.  Wonder why this wasn't pursued
by Fiona, Bleys or Brand?  I would think it should give the House of Amber
some sort of edge?

And speaking of the Pattern, shouldn't an initiate of the Pattern be
endowed with some special abilities beyond shadow walking, similar to those
initiated to the Logrus?  If so what are they?

Steve Murphy
1101 Kensington Dr.
Lafayette, In.  47905
...!{inuxc,ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!mdbs!psm

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 16:26:20 GMT
From: psm@mdbs.uucp (Steve Murphy)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

randy@ncifcrf.gov writes:
>leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP writes:
>>By the by, how can acid and other hallucinogens cause shadow shifting?  I
>>thought you had to be moving; "walk" literally through Shadow.  Am I
>>wrong?  Or can sorcerors do things that others can't (in Shadow, I mean)?
>
>    I believe what was required was a moving frame of reference...

Some stuff deleted. 

> Presumably LSD or other Hallucinagenic (sp) removes the need to move as
> you *can* convince yourself that that rock's going to change shape on
> you...

Some more stuff deleted. 

I remeber that Merlin specifically mentions that when he did acid that he
walked and his walk took him to strange places.  While Rinaldo seemingly
got there directly.  Could the difference be that Rinaldo was "bathed" in
the Font of Power at the Keep and had is magical abilities enhanced?

Steve Murphy
MDBS, Inc.
Lafayette, In. 47905
...!{inuxc,ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!mdbs!psm

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 88 05:13:37 GMT
From: randy@ncifcrf.gov 
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

leab_c47@tut.cc.rochester.edu.UUCP writes:
>By the by, how can acid and other hallucinogens cause shadow shifting?  I
>thought you had to be moving; "walk" literally through Shadow.  Am I
>wrong?  Or can sorcerors do things that others can't (in Shadow, I mean)?

   I believe what was required was a moving frame of reference.  In other
words, since you probably couldn't convince yourself that the rock you were
staring at was going to change shape on you, but you *could* convince
yourself that the trees were going to look different on the other side of
that outcropping of rock . . . I don't have direct evidence for it, but
when he walked in Shadow Corwin seemed to be much more concerned with
visual tricks (going from one side of a tree to another and changing the
sky color) and shifting his perspective than actual motion.  I consider his
getting away from Brand in _Chaos_ (by walking in circles) to be an example
of this.

   Presumably LSD or other Hallucinagenic (sp) removes the need to move as
you *can* convince yourself that that rock's going to change shape on you.
Brrr; now that I've thought about it, I can see why Merlin got so scared.

Randy Smith
NCI Supercomputer Facility
c/o PRI, Inc.
PO Box B, Bldng. 430
Frederick, MD 21701
(301) 698-5660                  
Uucp: ...!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!randy
Arpa: randy@ncifcrf.gov

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 14:00:17 GMT
From: laura@haddock.uucp
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>laura writes:
>[About Amber's Pattern]
>>BTW, anyone ever figure out why they keep the door locked but keep the
>>key hanging right there?
>
>Seems clear to me: anyone can get *in*, but no one/nothing can get *out*!
>Since we've seen that one can teleport to anyplace after walking the
>Pattern, it seems possible that someone (perhaps from the Keep or the
>Courts?) might be able to teleport to the Pattern.

So?  If they can teleport there, they can teleport anywhere else in Amber.
What would teleporting to the Pattern gain them?  Other than a chance to
walk the pattern, which they could do anyway if they teleported in, and
which locking the outside door wouldn't stop.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 08:52:29 GMT
From: davidg@killer.uucp (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu.UUCP says:
> Sorry, but you've got it a bit wrong there.  First of all, it was not
> Merlin's blood, but Martin's, shed by Brand which created the Black Road.
> While Corwin's curse may have helped, it did not create the road, only
> the damage to the Pattern could do that.

I think that it's fairly safe to assume that Corwin's curse helped to bring
about Martin's stabbing.  He certainly seemed to think so....

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!att-ih, ames}!killer!davidg
INET: davidg@killer.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 03:50:17 GMT
From: duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan)
Subject: Combat Football

I once read a story about "Combat Football". I think it is called 'Killer
Bowl' but am not sure. The story described the sport of combat football,
and dealt with a season in the life of one of the team's stars. The game
was played in an old abandoned section of a city (many different cities?).
The players wore modified football gear which was more like armor. The
players carried knives and clubs. At least one defensive player - I think
the saftey or a corner back carried a rifle - talk about serious hits! :-).

I read this story several years ago. I'm fairly certain it was published
prior to 1980. It (may have) appeared in an anthology on SF sports and have
been in an anthology published by Playboy. The story was very good, but
featured a stark, bleak vision of the future. The games in the story were
televised and camera crews followed the players in and out of the maze of
burned out bulidng and through streets and alleyways. Graft and corruption
also plays a big role.

Anyone recognize this story? If so who wrote it? Who published it? What is
its title and is it still in print? Any idea where I can locate a copy?

Thanks,

Jim Duncan 

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 88 22:02:16 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Combat Football (and other SF sports)

duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan) writes:
>I once read a story about "Combat Football". I think it is called 'Killer
>Bowl' but am not sure.
>
>Anyone recognize this story? If so who wrote it? Who published it? What is
>its title and is it still in print? Any idea where I can locate a copy?

The "Combat Football" story that I'm familiar with is called "The Last
Super Bowl", and it appears in an anthology called _Run to Starlight:
Sports Through Science Fiction_. I can't remember the author, but it
doesn't sound a lot like your story. Looking for something new to entertain
the sports fans, some young executive comes up with combat football, a game
much like regular football, but played without protective padding and
minimal regulations on roughness. Teams are not city-based, but represent
segments of the population. Two I remember are "The Golden Supermen", and
"The Gay Bladers". No, dammit, that's the wrong title for the story, but
the rest is right. "The Last Super Bowl" is another story in the anthology.
Other stories include:

"The Last Super Bowl": Using playing-field sized holograph projectors and
computer simulation, sporting events can be played without human players.
Super-teams and fantasy matchups (1978 Yankees vs. 2027 Red Sox) are
possible. Soon, live sports fade out of existence.

"Run to Starlight": The Brish-diri (civil but not overly friendly aliens)
challenge a group of humans to a game of football between the young men of
the two species.

"Poor Little Warrior": A man with a time-machine goes Brontosaurus hunting.

On a baseball theme, there is one about "Mighty Casey", a baseball playing
android. This one was made into an episode of the original "Twilight Zone",
or it was adapted from a script for that show.

Also on baseball, a has-been from our time is taken 50 years into the
future to play as a special guest in an "all-stars of the past" game.  But
the rules have changed a little bit, e.g., "No more than 5 androids on the
field", and "Did the pitch hit you? No, it just scared me. Good enough,
take your base."

On boxing, "Battling Maxo", a washed-up fighting robot has a message for
all mankind.

Chess has a story about a chess piece in a computer simulation that becomes
sentient and starts remembering previous games. He decides that the only
fair thing is to play for a stalemate.

And lastly, on fishing, the wealthy owner of a cosmetics company (female,
of course) wants to catch an Icthyosaur on Venus.

Good lord, I must have read this 10 years ago. Funny how the mind retains
the most useless things...

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 12:22:23 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Combat Football (and other SF sports)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
> duncanj@umd5.umd.edu (James Duncan) writes:
>>I once read a story about "Combat Football". I think it is called 'Killer
>>Bowl' but am not sure.
>>
>>Anyone recognize this story? If so who wrote it? Who published it? 
>
> The "Combat Football" story that I'm familiar with is called "The Last
> Super Bowl", and it appears in an anthology called _Run to Starlight:
> Sports Through Science Fiction_. I can't remember the author, but it
> doesn't sound a lot like your story. Looking for something new to
> entertain the sports fans, some young executive comes up with combat
> football, a game much like regular football, but played without
> protective padding and minimal regulations on roughness. Teams are not
> city-based, but represent segments of the population. Two I remember are
> "The Golden Supermen", and "The Gay Bladers". No, dammit, that's the
> wrong title for the story, but the rest is right. "The Last Super Bowl"
> is another story in the anthology.

The "Combat Football" story is by Norman Spinrad and is titled _The
National Pastime_.  The copy I have is contained in a Spinrad anthology
titled _No Direction Home_ with prior publication attributed to the _Nova
3_ anthology.  It's pretty much along the lines that James describes, so
this "Killer Bowl" story must be something else...

George Robbins
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 26 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 23:26:24 GMT
From: FRI@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Obituary for Robert A. Heinlein

On a slightly lighter note, what follows is an excerpt from Herb Caen's
column in the May 11 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle:

   "That was an amazing coincidence on the front pages yesterday -- the
   spread on Nancy Reagan's professional stargazer, S.F.'s Joan
   Quigley-Wiggly, and the obituary of the great science fiction writer,
   Robert A. Heinlein, who died in Carmel at the age of 80.  In his
   best-known book, 'Stranger in a Strange Land,' published in 1961,
   Heinlein writes about the leader of the free world, Joseph E. Douglas,
   who bases all his decisions on advice his wife receives from her
   astrologer, a San Francisco woman named Becky Vesant.  As if that
   weren't close enough to the mark -- in fact, Joan Quigley lives VERY
   close to the Mark -- Heinlein describes the leader of the free world as
   'a smiling nincompoop.'  Science fiction indeed."

One hopes Heinlein thought of that and got a smile out of it.

Paul Floriani
Foothill Research, Inc.
1301 Shoreway Rd.     
Suite 300             
Belmont, CA 94019     
FRI@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 01:48:23 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein's society

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:
>Now how can you say that Heinlein didn't at least highly approve of the
>Free Luna society?  Elements and major chunks of it and its philosophy
>show up almost continually in Heinlein's later works.
  
Just check out The Cat Who Walks Through Walls to see what Heinlein's idea
of it's future development is. I haven't heard anyone accuse Heinlein of
being a radical communist, (millions of :-) 's) but someone certainly could
make a case for it, if one looked at the way he hammers in the evils of big
business and other major "Capitalist Institutions" in this book which is a
followup to The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. (Or parenthetically: the
sympathetic way he approvingly portrays the statist government of Beyound
This Horizon)
  
As for the prison-colony which preceded Free Luna, you can, for yourself
verify, that repeatedly, and on every level, pressed home the point, that
the social system was hoisted on the people by the environment. The
appearance of similar (though I'll bet not analogious) elements is very
easily explained from the basis of the environment, where he was first able
to examine the effect of environ to society. In his childhood, that is.
  
There may be a preference toward his portraying harsh environs quite apart
from his reserves of experience, an esthetical one, but he does not let it
colour the logics of the situation. (not much anyway)

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
+358-0-719755 (sic!)            
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh 
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi        

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 21:11:43 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Robert Heinlein - a personal appreciation.

   I never met Robert Heinlein. I wish I had. Saw him once, at a con, but
not being one of those people who feel that hero-worship is a good excuse
for bothering your hero, I didn't introduce myself.
   But at least I had the pleasure of knowing him in the same way that the
rest of his legions of fans did. I found his books in my local library when
I was 12, one fine summer. Some things, some experiences, so rivet a person
that they can never be forgotten (nor, sadly, recaptured). Such was that
summer, for me. _The Rolling Stones_; _The Star Beast_; _Tunnel In The
Sky_; _Time For The Stars_; _Red Planet_.  When I couldn't find any more on
the "books for young people" shelf, I made my first foray into the
grownup's side of the library, and read until there was no more to read.
When the Heinlein ran out, I moved on to Clarke, Asimov, the rest of the
crew, and they were fine, but it wasn't really the same.
   How can one put it into words? How can that feeling of the mind coming
alive be communicated? If I say it was like the first time I heard "Rite of
Spring", sitting in my room, in the dark, but not really even knowing where
I was, will it mean anything to anyone but me?
   Heinlein has put the stars in our eyes, and his starry-eyed readers will
put the stars in our reach. Listen to the people who made Apollo, who made
the Saturn V. What did they read as youngsters? Over and over, the same
names are heard: Verne, Wells, Heinlein. Somewhere out there are thousands
of brothers and sisters I've never met, dreamers and believers, who as
children went through those books at lightspeed, and knew it could be real,
if we chose to make it so. Heinlein showed us. He made that dream of the
future a living reality, showed us that it was only our bodies chained by
gravity, not our minds. He took us to space, and we won't ever come home
again, not really.
   The 12th summer passes; a year goes by. Puberty arrives, and with it the
mailer from the SF Book Club: new Heinlein novel! _Stranger In A Strange
Land_. Yet more horizons become visible. Question authority. Think new
thoughts. Never be afraid to doubt that which makes no sense, no matter how
many times They tell you you're silly or stubborn, a troublemaker. Have
faith in yourself.
   I can't summarize a man's life work in one essay. So many threads, so
many lessons. I was never close to my real father, but Heinlein made up
much of the lack. He was not the only place I found lessons about duty, and
courage, and responsibility, but he more than anyone else made these things
real for me. Protect the weak; value honesty for its own sake; take
responsibility for your own actions. I haven't always lived up to this
model, of course, but at least I have the ideals; Heinlein gave them to me.
   Many more summers have come and gone for me since those first, electric
discoveries of new dimensions of my own humanity. Since then have come the
muddy, equivocal lessons of age, including the lesson that even Heinlein
can try, but fail, to distill wisdom into words. And now there's that final
lesson that we are only clay, and cannot tarry forever, no matter how much
we wish it were otherwise. Heinlein wished harder than anyone, but he, too,
now sails beyond the sunset. If there were one thing I could tell him, I
know what it would be: that those stories he was always so modest about,
those words strung together to entertain, to "buy groceries", have given
him the immortality that he sought. As long as human children look up and
wonder, his books will be there to inspire them.
   Goodbye, Mr. Heinlein. You are loved, and missed. And if there is
another shore upon the other side, maybe I'll one day get to thank you
personally, and laugh along with you at the wonderful joke we play on
ourselves called Life.

Kenn Barry

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 01:03:30 GMT
From: leonard@agora.uucp (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>I have done this. I have noticed that it is impossible to convince a
>Heinlein fan that Heinlein is not God. That his societies are elitist and
>right-wing. That _Waldo_ and _Magic, Inc._ were not really very good
>pieces of literature. Etc.

If "elitist" means recognizing that there is a difference between "all men
are equal" and "all men are equal under the law", then we need more
elitists!

As for right-wing, your politics are showing. Since when is it wrong for a
writer to espouse views that you disagree with?

I do not think Heinlein is god. There are several of his books that I own
merely to have a complete collection. But I object strongly to *anyone*
insisting that *any* author is bad because he isn't "idelogically correct".
Feel free to say that you don't like an authors politics. Or that you don't
like the politics of his characters (they are *not* necessarily the same
thing!). But start flaming that he (or she) is a bad writer because of
this, and you deserve to be flamed!

Btw. Waldo and Magi, Inc were never *intended* to be "good pieces" of
literature. They were intend to be light entertainment. As Heinlein himself
has put it many times, "to compete for the reader's beer money".

Please note that comdemning a *popular work* for not being literature makes
YOU an elitist...

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 13:25:50 GMT
From: grr@cbmvax.uucp (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

hester@ics.uci.edu writes:
>> In Glory Road the ruler of the known universe (which is *quite* large)
>> is a woman.  Moreover she is absolutely, without question, in charge.
> 
> "without question?"  Speak for yourself, thank you very much.
> I disagree: Star was ruler of the universes only because Oscar didn't
> want the job.  ...  Yet one good assertive shout from her man and she
> lapses into stereotypical female docility.  If Heinlein could have found
> a smooth way to write it, I bet he would have given her an orgasm at that
> point.  The situation is one in which the woman must remain in position
> to satisfy the equal-opportunity "authorities", but the one in real
> charge is the man.  Star would issue any orders Oscar chose to relay
> through her: he is just not interested in doing so.  She is "ruler" only
> in title, and by her man's permission.  Note that she DID explicitly
> offer to drop the job if Oscar asked her to.

This doesn't seem to be too closely related to same Glory Road I just
reviewed the tail end of.  I'd politely suggest you read from chapter 18 to
the end and look a little more carefully at what RAH is doing.

Oscar is never in charge except in the in the narrow role of "hero".  Most
of the time he doesn't even know what is really going on and is only
gradually and conditionally able to come to grips with the "reality" of
Star's universe.  She rules unconditionally, while projecting an
environment where Oscar able to function given his "American" expectations
and mores.  Rufo breaks the bad news around chapter 20.

The whole thing is basically another extended RAH reality test.
1) Can a woman be the unconditional ruler of the "known" universe.
2) What accommodations are neccessary.
3) Can an "American" male adapt to such a universe.

RAH basically exercises the characters against different aspects of these
issues and lets them speak their pieces.  Sometime they the speak to the
point, other times strawmen are set up to be knocked down.  The intended
results are pretty clear, you may or may not agree with the "reality" of
any test or the conclusion, but hopefully one has given it as much thought
as RAH did.
 
> By the way, I'm not arguing against the book or Heinlein in general on
> these or any other grounds, just keeping the facts straight.  I like his
> stuff: it's simply catering to standard male fantasies.

Try again.  I don't see as this particular role reversal model supports any
particular standard male fantasy.  Oscar ends up thoroughly deflated,
faced with a take-it or leave-it relationship with Star.  He walks, not
really accepting Star's reality only to find that his new perspectives
leave him unable to stay immersed in the customary illusions of his own
universe.

Much the same action occurs in the first part of Friday, the questions
being: 1) are artificial persons human; 2) if they are human, how do the
differ in some significant way.

RAH does get heavy handed, tending to batter you over the head with his
convictions and agenda, but the arguments are usually there for your own
examination.  You can always reject parts or the whole, but to label it as
simple fantasy fulfillment suggests you're not reading very closely.

BTW, I don't particularly like Glory Road.  In it's own way, it's as
tedious as Job.  RAH going to a lot of work to dissect a point of view I
don't particularly relate to.

George Robbins
uucp: {uunet|ihnp4|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 13:29:26 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>1. He might be exploring in some passages or books and promoting in
>   others.
...
>For one thing, someone might want to quote the Delany remark about
>Starship Trooper (I think that was it).  He recalls being impressed that
>one character just happened to be black, just like one might happen to be
>blond or tall (not his comparison, but I don't have the right book handy
>and don't want to be too cryptic.)

Can anyone one point me to where this occurs in the book? If it's there, I
definitely missed it. I even seem to remember looking for it when I first
heard about Delany's remark, and couldn't find it.  Any pointers?

Ned Danieley
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Box 3140
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807 or 684-6942
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 15:02:02 GMT
From: neff@shasta.uucp
Subject: Robert A. Heinlein

I started reading Heinlein in the early 60's during my impressionable
teenage years, from my mother's sf collection.  Certainly hard science
fiction and particularly Heinlein influenced my vocational direction into
electrical engineering and computer programming.  This, plus living in
Houston within the glow of the NASA moon landing program, created a strong
desire to go into space.  Thanks to various delays, I am probably too old
now.

To Robert A. Heinlein, thank you for:
   Moon is a Harsh Mistress  ( and Mycroft, i.e. Mike)
   Stranger in a Strange Land
   The Past Through Tomorrow collection

 All of the juveniles, but especially:
   Citizen of the Galaxy
   Space Cadet
   Have Spacesuit, Will Travel
   Red Planet
   Tunnel in the Sky
   Star Beast

 And for the short stories:
   Menance From Earth  (I want to fly like this soooo bad!)
   Green Hills of Earth
   By His Bootstraps
   All Your Zombies

Goodbye and fair well.

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 00:41:04 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
> friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>>Nonsense.  Friday considered killing him.  The big thing that stopped her
>>was that he was a fellow AP (artificial person).  Also, she says, not in
>>these words, that he showed compassion, even while carrying out orders to
>>rape her.  And rape, to her as an AP, was not the trauma it would be to
>>an ordinary woman.  Her reactions have NOTHING to do with the feelings of
>>ordinary women.  After all, very little else she does in the whole novel
>>has anything to do with what ordinary women do or feel.
>
> Heinlein invented this kind of female entity and made one the hero of his
> novel.  Heinlein invented a kind of woman who does not mind being raped
> all that much.  If I didn't think Heinlein was basically a decent person,
> I would suspect he was indulging in a somewhat questionable fastasy.
> That she's not an ordinary woman, according to you, is supposed to make
> Heinlein innocent of charges of sexism.  I don't know.  It doesn't sound
> all that convincing to me.

I find this "AP women not like ordinary women" just as absurd as Jeff
Dalton and somewhat revolting.  Heinlein went to a lot of trouble to show
how asinine treating the AP as subhuman was and it seems to have gone clear
over Friedman's head.

What absolves Heinlein is his treatment of rape as simply a form of
physical violence.  Note Friday's puzzlement at anyone using rape as a form
of torture.  I took this as a recognition of the limited value as torture
and the vulnerability of the aggressor during the act.  The combination
makes rape a very poor tool.

To an individual with a healthy emotional makeup rape is in no way
different than any other form of physical abuse.  Friday was socialized to
such a healthy attitude.

>In the struggle for understanding between the sexes, Robert Heinlein is
>not helping.

Heinlein wrote stories, primarily, about powerful individuals without much
regard to gender.  That should help.  His treatment of rape as just another
form of physical abuse should help.

His portrayals of powerful females and males, who still retain
social-sexual and emotional distinctions are all to the good as well.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 26 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:

		    Films - Star Wars & Willow (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 May 88 06:12:16 GMT
From: randy@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Randy Orrison)
Subject: alternate star-wars

I've just heard a rumor from a reputable source (of course) that there was
an alternate plot line to Star Wars in which Luke gets turned to the dark
side of the force and the story continued through a couple generations
(Episodes 7-9?).  Also, (the rumor goes...) books following this plot were
actually published, but removed from the market because the plot wouldn't
work for movies.  What, if any, is the truth to this rumor?  Is Episode 1
coming out next year?  What is George Lucas up to now?

Thanks for any/all information, especially verifiably correct information!

Randy Orrison
Control Data, 
Arden Hills, MN
randy@ux.acss.umn.edu
{ihnp4, seismo!rutgers, sun}!umn-cs!randy

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 11:39:42 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Review of the movie WILLOW

	      Lucas and Howard Strike Back:		WILLOW

   If you are a movie or fantasy fan, run, don't walk to see WILLOW.  If
you have a choice of where to see the film find the BIGGEST SCREEN you can.

   WILLOW is a strikingly derivative movie.  It cribs from the Bible,
Tolkien, _THE WIZARD OF OZ_....even _GONE WITH THE WIND_.  However, it
works better than any fantasy movie in recent years.  WILLOW combines every
fantasy element you could imagine: prophecies, magic, elfins (elfs, also
affectionately called "bobbins"), brownies, fairies, mysterious
transformations, trolls, wizards-in-training, a quest, battles, castles,
and a very unwilling hero.  It has some outstanding acting from people
we've never heard of before.

   WILLOW is very much in the "fantasy is a dirty business" genre.  The
movie opens in a dungeon where a pregnant women has just given birth to a
child.  It has been fortold that a female baby with a mark on her arm will
overthrow the ruling queen.  This particular baby matches the description.
Just before the baby is to be taken to the queen to be ritualized out of
existence (it's a MAJOR plot hook that the baby can't be "just killed"),
the midwife snatches the baby and takes her into the woods.  Once the
credits are out of the way, the midwife, being tracked by viscious
dog/boar-like creatures, floats the baby down a river and is killed by the
animals.

   The baby floats into the life of Willow, an elfin who lives in a quiet,
peaceful village.  He wants to be left alone to plant his crops.  However,
his wife and children insist that they keep the baby.  He reluctantly
agrees.

   The sequence in the elfin village is particularly well done.  Have you
ever noticed how sterile fantasy villages seem (remember Munchkinland?)?
The village and the people in it seem very real.  It's a particular tribute
to Howard and Lucas that we are made to care about these little people.
(In this movies, the brownies, tiny creatures much smaller than the elfins,
are played for laughs.)

   Of course, if Willow and the baby had stayed in the village, it wouldn't
have been much of a movie.

   At a festival, one of those tracking animals shows up and causes trouble
until the local warriors kill it.  The animal has a message on its back
from the queen "Give me the baby."  Willow admits he has the baby, and
after some discussion, is sent to the nearest dikini ("big people")
settlement to turn the baby over.

   One particularly strong part of the movie is the photography.  Much of
the travelling in the movie happens against a backdrop of marvelous
mountain shots and well-integrated mattes.  Since most of the sets are grim
and forboding, the landscape shots offer a nice contrast.

   As in any fantasy movie, Willow makes friends along the way.  There is a
thrilling chase scene in a buckboard (shades of _GONE WITH THE WIND_ when
they are leaving Atlanta) and another incredible escape scene when Willow
and company sled down a mountainside to escape the Queen's men (shades of
_INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM_).  At one point, when Willow, the
baby, and Madmartigan (an off-the-wall swordsman) are holed up in a castle,
fighting off the bad guys, Willow is attacked by trolls (gorilla-like
monsters).  The "troll on the castle wall" effect is very interesting.
Willow, a frustrated apprentice wizard, transforms a troll into the
"Siskbert," an ugly, two-headed, dragon-like creature.

   You don't normally think of fantasy movies as social commentaries, but
WILLOW makes a strong statement against bigotry.  When Willow gets into the
dikini world, he is invariably called "peg," an obvious term of derision,
and is considered to be worthless by the bigger people.  It is clear that
Howard and Lucas are pointing out how stupid this type of behavior is.

   While there is a some violence in the movie, and while it may frighten
young children, it's a good movie for the whole family.  I'm planning to go
see it again, and my 7 year old daughter loved it.

SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER

   There was one element I really hated, and it detracted from my overall
positive view of the movie.  The queen's daughter leads the queen's men in
search of the baby.  She's a warrior, not just a figurehead.  Madmartigan
is accidently sprinkled with brownie "love dust" and makes a play for the
woman.  After a little back and forth, she abrutly switches allegiences,
from her mother to Madmartigan.  I thought this was both stupid and
unnecessary.  Since Willow had been joined by a powerful sorceress, he
could have gotten to the queen without the daughter's help.

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 20:57:55 GMT
From: mmr@nebula.att.com
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
> Willow, a frustrated apprentice wizard, transforms a troll
> into the "Siskbert,"  an ugly, two-headed, dragon-like creature.

Wonder if this is a play on words and an indirect dig at film reviewers
Siskel and Ebert??

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 12:13:23 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>If you are a movie or fantasy fan, run, don't walk to see WILLOW.  If you
>have a choice of where to see the film find the BIGGEST SCREEN you can.

I'll second this. Willow is a great flick.

>WILLOW is a strikingly derivative movie.  It cribs from the Bible,
>Tolkien, _THE WIZARD OF OZ_....even _GONE WITH THE WIND_.

I hate to say it but this seems to be fairly standard operating procedure
for anything written by Lucas.

>However, it works better than any fantasy movie in recent years.  

It does work well but I'd hardly say it works better than any fantasy movie
in recent years. It does work well though and I'd probably rank it third
after The Princess Bride and Ladyhawke.

>WILLOW combines every fantasy element you could imagine: prophecies,
>magic, elfins (elfs, also affectionately called "bobbins"), brownies,
>fairies, mysterious transformations, trolls, wizards-in-training, a quest,
>battles, castles, and a very unwilling hero.  It has some outstanding
>acting from people we've never heard of before.

Actually the ones you are thinking of as "elfins" were called, I believe,
"eldwins." As for the actors, Most of the main characters were played by
people I'd heard of before. Probably the only ones I hadn't seen before
were the ones who played the brownies. Lucas does include a lot of fantasy
elements but that is to be expected. I might have preferred it if the movie
was a little less crowded but it was still a good flick.

>SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER
>
>There was one element I really hated, and it detracted from my overall
>positive view of the movie.  The queen's daughter leads the queen's men in
>search of the baby.  She's a warrior, not just a figurehead.  Madmartigan
>is accidently sprinkled with brownie "love dust" and makes a play for the
>woman.  After a little back and forth, she abrutly switches allegiences,
>from her mother to Madmartigan.  I thought this was both stupid and
>unnecessary.  Since Willow had been joined by a powerful sorceress, he
>could have gotten to the queen without the daughter's help.

This whole relationship between Madmartigan and Sorsha was, to me, one of
the best parts of this movie. It was something of a classic love/hate
relationship.  I had absolutely no problem with Sorsha falling in love with
Madmartigan.  Consider how things went with them. Madmartigan obviously
cared for her even after the dust wore off. Remember that he was torn
between going after Sorsha and helping out Willow when he and Willow
escaped from Sorsha's men and that she saw how he had trouble deciding
between the two. Before then he had demonstrated that he had something of a
romantic side when he was with her in her tent, even if she did think he
was just trying to buy time for Willow and the baby to escape. Then at the
castle he comes off as a highly skilled, incredibly brave, and very noble
warrior. Singlehandedly he was doing quite a good job of holding off
Sorsha's troops. He could have run and left Willow to face them alone but
he stayed despite being vastly outnumbered. When Willow and the baby are
menaced by a troll he climbs onto a catapault and fires himself up to where
they are despite the fact that it means slamming himself into the castle
wall and quite possibly injuring himself. He is willing to make the
ultimate sacrifice to protect Willow and the child. Then he, by himself,
attacks the Siskbert which threatens them all and by himself kills the
monster.  And all that time Sorsha was watching this brave and noble fool.
I remember thinking at the time that if I was in charge of the enemy forces
I would have let him go and if I had been a common soldier in that army I
would not have fought against him. A man like Madmartigan deserved to live.
I can easily see Sorsha falling for him.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 13:43:29 GMT
From: deem@interlan.uucp (Mike Deem)
Subject: Re: WILLOW

Neil Ottenstein writes:

>I thought the movie WILLOW was quite fun. 
>
>The disturbing thing about it had to do with the timing at the end.  Just
>how long was that ceremony to get rid of the baby?  The good guys waited
>until daylight to attack and it was still going on.  For that matter, the
>thunderstorm was still going on?  They usually don't take that long, do
>they?  Also, how did they manage to dig all those gopher holes?  What
>happened?

Magic, my friend, is the answer to everything.

It is, after all, a fantasy!

Mike Deem

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 23:55:38 GMT
From: vonn@wind.bellcore.com (Vonn Marsch)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

(Has anyone mentioned that:) isn't one of the villians named 
"General Kael"? 

I'm not sure if these Hollywodd "in jokes" bode well with me.  (Seems kind
of sophomoric.)

Vonn Marsch
vonn@wind.bellcore.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 17:15:00 GMT
From: bobbitt@gnuvax.dec.com (festina lente - hasten slowly)
Subject: re: review of the movie WILLOW

I thought the movie was a good combination (almost overboard in some
places) of light slapstick and fantasy.  The special effects were good.
And I noticed something else - perhaps Ron Howard slipped it in - a marked
resemblance between the two brownies who act as guides, and Lenny & Squiggy
from the old Laverne & Shirley show.  I checked the credits and don't think
they're the same actors, but the physical resemblance, and the way they
bicker, is reminiscent.  Another point of note, the music was done by James
Horner, who did the score for Krull (and probably some other things that
slip my mind entirely).  Sorsha (the daughter of the queen) was indeed
useful in the recovery of the baby (thus it was important she change
allegiances).  She led Madmartigan, Willow, and Roselle (the "good witch")
to the chamber where the queen was doing the ritual, probably circumventing
all sorts of troublesome guards.

Jody Bobbitt
DEC Marlboro
bobbitt%lezah.dec@decwrl.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 23:00:36 GMT
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW (SPOILER)

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER
>There was one element I really hated, and it detracted from my overall
>positive view of the movie.  The queen's daughter leads the queen's men in
>search of the baby.  She's a warrior, not just a figurehead.  Madmartigan
>is accidently sprinkled with brownie "love dust" and makes a play for the
>woman.  After a little back and forth, she abrutly switches allegiences,
>from her mother to Madmartigan.  I thought this was both stupid and
>unnecessary.

Well, we knew that they were going to get together eventually, and the
queen's aid did foretell that the daughter would betray her.

In any case, I didn't see it as an abrupt switch.  Notice that what lead up
to it was that she watched Madmartigan in the battle.  The daughter (named
something like Sorsesh?) is a warrior, and what she respects is a good
fighter.  The poetry that Madmartigan tried earlier had little effect on
her, but when she saw him whipping the asses of her best men, she knew he
was the man for her, even if he was the enemy.

Lucas seems to like abrupt switches like this.  I felt almost the same way
when Darth Vader killed the Emperor at the end of the Star Wars trilogy.

Barry Margolin
Thinking Machines Corp.
barmar@think.com
uunet!think!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 18:08:03 GMT
From: aacscjej@csuna.uucp (j jackson)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW (SPOILER)

barmar@kulla.think.com.UUCP (Barry Margolin) writes:
>lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>>SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER   *  SPOILER	*  SPOILER
>>There was one element I really hated, and it detracted from my overall
>>positive view of the movie.  The queen's daughter leads the queen's men
>>in search of the baby.  She's a warrior, not just a figurehead.
>>Madmartigan is accidently sprinkled with brownie "love dust" and makes a
>>play for the woman.  After a little back and forth, she abrutly switches
>>allegiences, from her mother to Madmartigan.  I thought this was both
>>stupid and unnecessary.
>
>Well, we knew that they were going to get together eventually, and the
>queen's aid did foretell that the daughter would betray her.
>
>In any case, I didn't see it as an abrupt switch.  Notice that what lead
>up to it was that she watched Madmartigan in the battle.  The daughter
>(named something like Sorsesh?) is a warrior, and what she respects is a
>good fighter.  The poetry that Madmartigan tried earlier had little effect
>on her, but when she saw him whipping the asses of her best men, she knew
>he was the man for her, even if he was the enemy.

A friend of mine has seen a copy of the script and he informed me that
there were a few scenes in the movie that were cut out that could explain
this.  It seems that in one of the stone cover people in the castle they
fought in the first time, was the father of the warrior- princess (I forget
her name).  She sees him when entering the castle, and THIS combined with
her already unsure feelings for Mad Mardigan (sp?)  and seeing his prowess
with a blade, changed her mind.
    
Also, did anyone else notice that the castle at the end of the movie was
the same one as the place with the Siskbert and stoned people?  Nobody who
saw the movie with me believed this, they thought it was the queen's
castle.  I say it was the other one, and that all the people were the
ex-stoned.  I also seem to remember seeing an old man with his arms around
the warrior-princess before Willow leaves.  Could this be her father?

I really hate it when they edit out things in a movie to make it less
clear.

....ucbvax!litvax!csun!aacscjej   

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 20:53:38 GMT
From: maslak@unix.sri.com (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Trivia from WILLOW

I enjoyed WILLOW but wasn't bowled over by it...

From things I've seen on the net, I think it would have been a stronger
movie of it'd been 15 minutes longer, to tie some threads together. People
here have said that there was a tie-in between the wicked queen and the
stone people, and that this explains part of the princess turning on her
mother...that should have been covered...I would have appreciated more of
the blond warrior too.

Valerie Maslak

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 26 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:

	      Miscellaneous - Choose Your Universe (9 msgs) &
                              Hugo Awards (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 21:51:50 GMT
From: jlh@loral.uucp
Subject: Re: Choose your Universe

Actually, I'd like John Norman's Gor if I could trade in my scrawny and
abused body for one with lots of muscles.  Donning flame retardant suit....

Jim Harkins 
Loral Instrumentation
San Diego
{ucbvax,cttvax!dcdwest,akgua,decvax,ihnp4}!ucsd!sdcc6!loral!jlh

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 15:38:35 GMT
From: tneff@dasys1.uucp (Tom Neff)
Subject: Re: Choosing your Own Universe

If I could visit any universe for a decade, I would certainly want to try
the world of ALWAYS COMING HOME.  If I had to stay somewhere forever, I
think Clarke had it right in the '60's - a sort of benign colonial
techno-future where I'd live somewhere like the South Pacific.

Tom Neff
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tneff

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 15:45:00 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Own World!

The Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote universe.

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 88 18:18:40 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

How about any world in the Universe of Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat
series?

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 6 May 88 23:22:53 GMT
From: limes@sun.uucp (Greg Limes)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

My world of choice? Niven's Known Space is pretty tempting, but I would
have to go with Heinlein's post-diaspora universe at around the time of the
founding of Tertius.

Greg Limes
limes@sun.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 88 20:03:48 GMT
From: michael@stb.uucp (Michael)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

Now for something slightly different:

If you could VISIT the sci-fi setting of your choice, let's say you could
be a significant (but non-main) character in the story, which one would you
go for?

Personally, I'd take Amber. Not because it would be safe (I have trouble
thinking of a less safe group to get involved with), but it would be
"interesting".

Michael Gersten
ihnp4!hermix!ucla-an!denwa!stb!michael
sdcsvax!crash!gryphon!denwa!stb!michael

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 88 05:55:24 GMT
From: linhart@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mike Threepoint)
Subject: Choose Your Own Universe, Plane 6 (Re: Choose your Universe)

While True Names sounds appealing (at least half of it :-), I would rather
visit one of the worlds of Spinrad's Child of Fortune.  Despite the lack of
a cyberspace, it has to be one of the best universes in which to get an
education.  And anyone with linguistic tendencies would enjoy studying the
Sprach.

I might get bored and yearn to be back staring at a screen day after day,
though.  It doesn't sound computer intensive enough to hold me.  Gibson has
some attraction, but I'm nowise streetwise enough to be ready to be plunked
down anywhere and remain there.  It might prove more educational, if less
philosophical.

Then there's True Names again.  Probably more fun than the world of Johnny
Mnemonic.

Gimme a taste spoon.  I can't decide (I'd go with the first on any snap
judgments, though, no doubt about that).

Hey, buddy!  Gimme a lift on your D-Hopper?

linhart@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 16:18:50 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Choose Your Universe!

Since nobody's mentioned this yet: Either of the two towns at the mouths of
the rivers in James Blaylock's books, The Elfin Ship and The Disappearing
Dwarf.  Reasonably peaceful, good food, and wonderful bookshops.  For some
reason (ok, I know why) they remind me of Mendocino.

Anyone know when The Road to Balumnia will come out?  How about the
paperback edition of Land of Dreams?  Does Ashbless and his crew of
bathyscaphistes make it to Balumnia?

David Eppstein
Columbia U. Computer Science
eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 21:53:09 GMT
From: trent@unix.sri.com (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

steveg@squid.UUCP (Steve Greenland) writes:
>I think I'd have to go with the Federation of F. Paul Wilson, on the
>planet Tolive.  (nothing to do with the Star Trek Federation).  Tolive is
>a colony

Speaking of which...I'd have to choose the UFP from the new Star Trek.
Those of you who haven't seen the most recent episode may be interested to
hear that, on the earth of this universe, there are no concern for material
needs, and the main challange seems to be to improve yourself and enjoy
life. (If that sounds boring, there's always Star Fleet)

Though I must say that the guy who suggested "Heaven" from the bible was on
the right track...surely there must be a more consistent paradise
*somewhere* in the World Mythos that would take the cake almost by
definition...any ideas out there?

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 14:48:22 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Hugos Awards

Chuq's recent comments on the "Other" Hugo award are excellent.  Many of us
in the Boston area, who felt the "Other" award was as ill-defined, chose to
nominate very bizarre items, such as the NESFA shaft and the Conspiracy
hotel manager wall for the award.  To the best of my knowledge, none of
these items have made the ballot.

I disagree with Chuq on one point----why can't an "art book" win the Best
Non-fiction Award??  Whelan's _Worlds of Wonder_ will probably will for
1987.  And _Science Made Stupid_ wasn't an art book, it was an illustrated
satire.

I also strongly agree with Chuq's contention that Best Semi-Prozine should
be dumped.  It's a meaningless award since there are only five or six
semi-prozines.  I'm tempted to initiate the recall of this award, though
I'd like to see more mainline" fanzine fans lead the movement to kill it.
	
One new award Noreascon III is considering for next year is Best Juvenile
Fiction.  This is still in the discussion stage.  For one thing, we aren't
sure if there's ENOUGH quality YA SF or fantasy to warrant such an award.
But we plan to research it pretty carefully before we decide to institute
it.

FYI, Noreascon II was the first Worldcon to make a Best Non-fiction Book
award.)

Laurie Mann
Stratus Computer
M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752
Work phone (8:30-5EDT): 617-460-2610 
Internet:  lmann@jjmhome.UUCP
UUCP:  harvard!anvil!es!mann

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 18:01:43 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

>Nolacon really did some wierd things (other than Other Forms of course).
>They sent people with some number of nominations a "You may already have
>received enough nominations to appear on the final ballot---do you want to
>be on it" letter.

Yeah. They did this to anyone who placed in the top 10 nominations for a
given category. The reason for this is to try to avoid the kind of problems
they go into a few years back over the Judy-Lynn del Rey nomination.

Of course, only the top five or so will really hit the ballot, so some
folks will get left out in the cold.

>What I'd like to know is, how would you feel if you got
>such a letter then DIDN'T wind up on the ballot???

If my information is correct, I'll be able to tell you in a few days... :-(

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 16:55:46 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

>So David Hartwell's not a "really GOOD" book editor (though "no slogger")?
>That's certainly news.  For instance, to those who've written the really
>good books he's edited at Timescape, Arbor House, and Tor, to those of us
>who've read them . . .

Well, now that I'm into it up to my knees, let me rephrase things a little
bit, and see if I can fix things...

First, an apology to Hartwell off the top. He is a hell of an editor. He's
published some really good stuff, and he's got a LOT of respect in the
industry. Including mine. He's published stuff nobody else would touch, and
make it work (two of my favorite examples: Kiteworld by Keith Roberts (now
an Avon paperback, go buy it! Plug, plug!) a truly avant garde Fantasy by a
big British Author who's more or less unknown over here, and Shelter, by
Marty Asher, who writes stuff that only Vonnegutt could get away with, and
makes it work.... Neither are things that could be categorized into a line
cleanly, and it took a gutsy editor to be willing to touch them....)

Now, what I meant to say (really, really I did!) was that he hasn't really
done anything I consider exemplary in the qualifying year for this Hugo.
The Hugo's supposed to be given out for work in a given time period, not
for a longstanding reputation, and I think that Dave's nomination is based
on his reputation, not on his current production.

When you look at what Beth Meacham is doing at Tor, and what Betsy Mitchell
is doing at Baen, and realize they aren't on the list, you have to wonder.

Hartwell deserves a large amount of praise for what he's done. But I
nominate people for Hugo's based on what they're doing. That's my gripe
with the nomination. I'm sorry I worded it so poorly.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 17:15:58 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

> I have to disagree with Chuq on one point: "Cvltvre Made Stupid" simply
> does *not* belong here. It's a very good book, but has *nothing*
> whatsoever to do with SF. If this book fits in this category, then
> practically every piece of light satire does.

Yes, true. It really doesn't belong. Except, of course, that they've
already given an award to it's brother, Science Made Stupid, which was just
as tangental and just as inappropriate.

They are definitely the kinds of books that fans appreciate, even if they
aren't the kinds of books you'd expect to qualify. But the precedent was
set. At least it isn't an art book this time.

Given my druthers, I would have excluded it, but I'm not running the Hugos
(thank God....)

> Oh, well, at least Watchmen is almost guaranteed a Hugo, if only because
> they have set straw men up against it. The only thing likely to give it
> any competition is the Ellison script, and I think that Watchmen will
> win, just on name recognition. A cheap award, but a Hugo nonetheless.

I disagree with this. There's a strong anti-comic book contingent in fandom
that is likely to vote Watchmen after No Award. And the Ellison Script was
published in Isaac Asimov's, which gives it wide exposure and visibility,
as well as being a hell of a piece of writing. Wild Cards is a laughing
stock entry. The Essential Ellison? High name recognition, not a large
print run, and there will probably be some question in the minds of some
fans whether it really should have qualified. But it'll get some votes.

Going out on a limb, here's what I think'll happen:

   I, Robot 
   Watchmen
   The Essential Ellison
   Culture Made Stupid
   Wild Cards series
   No Award

The Essential Ellison and Culture will be very close to each other for
third place, they may swap places. Wild Cards MAY slip under No Award, but
don't count on it. The only reason I, Robot will win is because it's
mainline SF, and Watchmen is not -- so Watchmen won't have it's main base
of readers voting. It'll probably be close, though.

One final comment on Other Forms. One of the items that made the
pre-finalists for the ballot, but not the final cut, was the Elric costume
that won best of show at Conspiracy last year. Which I think is a further
indictment of the category (no offense to the costume or the costumer, but
costumes have their own awards, and shouldn't be part of the Hugos).

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 88 11:15:24 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

justin@inmet.UUCP writes:
> I have to disagree with Chuq on one point: "Cvltvre Made Stupid" simply
> does *not* belong here. It's a very good book, but has *nothing*
> whatsoever to do with SF. If this book fits in this category, then
> practically every piece of light satire does.

_Cvlture Made Stupid_ IS related to SF, because much of the book parodies
literature and typography.  Since we fans routinely nominate science books
in the Best Non-fiction category, I see nothing inconsistent with
nominating books dealing with literature.

Besides, how many other "mainstream" books parody the Hugo award on their
covers??? :-)

Laurie Mann
Stratus Computer
M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752
Work phone (8:30-5EDT): 617-460-2610 
Internet:  lmann@jjmhome.UUCP
UUCP:  harvard!anvil!es!mann

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 19:00:51 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugos Awards

>such as the NESFA shaft and the Conspiracy hotel manager wall for the
>award.  To the best of my knowledge, none of these items have made the
>ballot.

The hotel manager wall should have made it. Truly inspired. You should have
been there....

One thing I'm wondering. Considering the number of folks who I've heard
have nominated filk works, why didn't a filk make it to the final ballot?
I'm looking forward to seeing numbers on things....

>I disagree with Chuq on one point----why can't an "art book" win the Best
>Non-fiction Award??  Whelan's _Worlds of Wonder_ will probably will for
>1987.  And _Science Made Stupid_ wasn't an art book, it was an illustrated
>satire.

My mistake. Art books do belong in non-fiction. 

>I also strongly agree with Chuq's contention that Best Semi-Prozine should
>be dumped.  It's a meaningless award since there are only five or six
>semi-prozines.  I'm tempted to initiate the recall of this award, though
>I'd like to see more "mainline" fanzine fans lead the movement to kill it.

I'll tell you how I look at this right now. Rather than dump it, I'd like
to see the magazine awards restructured and try to take some of the
overly-zealous restrictions out of it. For instance:

   Best Amateur Magazine: readership under 1,000

   Best Small Press: a magazine with readership between 1,000 and 10,000,
   OR a book edition with print run under 5,000 (this number is somewhat
   arbitrary....) and no associated mass market edition.

   Best Professional magazine: Magazines with over 10,000 readers.

To me, it makes no sense to try to define "semi-pro" or "pro" or "fanzine"
- -- magazines of similar size should compete with each other, since the size
of the readership base is one thing that can heavily skew the number of
available votes. All this "what is a semi-pro" discussion is rather
arbitrary.

The reason the middle award is Small Press instead of Small Press Magazine
is because I think that the small publishers deserve a shot. There are lots
of good, well put together books that could compete very strongly with any
given issue of a magazine. Folks like Axolotl Press, who turn out print
runs of 500 books, for instance.

At the same time, you want to avoid the ability of something like the
Phantasia Press edition of Brin's Uplift wars from dominating simply
because it's a well known name. So we fudge a little bit.

(And, for the record, if you look at the definitions, the new categories
put OtherRealms fairly clearly in the Small Press category, where it would
have to compete against folks like Locus. So it's hard to see how the
changes in the categories could possibly be to my benefit. It's doubtful
OtherRealms in its current chance would have any possibility of winning a
Hugo under these awards. Maybe in a few years when it gets better...)

>One new award Noreascon III is considering for next year is Best Juvenile
>Fiction.  This is still in the discussion stage.  For one thing, we aren't
>sure if there's ENOUGH quality YA SF or fantasy to warrant such an award.
>But we plan to research it pretty carefully before we decide to institute
>it.

You not only need enough quality Ya SF, but enough folks who vote for the
Hugos that also read YA to be able to get a representative vote.
Personally, I'd believe the latter to be tougher. I read some YA, but
definitely not enough to feel confortable nominating consistently.

And for all my screaming and yelling about Other Forms, some version really
needs to exist. One that has been worded decently, however, and avoids many
of the pitfalls Nolacon seems to have stepped into.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 26 May 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 01:02:05 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante) writes:
>> I question the reasoning behind the hero in the story having an
>> incestuous relationship with his mother and his "daughters".  
>>At risk of talking over everyone elses' heads: in TEfL, incest is defined
>>in terms of GENETICS.  If the gene charts show no danger, there's no
>>reason not to indulge in sex.

Actually, in TEFL, it is stated without real support that the only reason
incest is taboo is its genetic consequences.  I would suppose that this is
what Mark cannot accept.

So let's address what Heinlein says about incest:

Q: Why is incest considered bad?

A1: Divine revelation.  Heinlein characters don't accept divine
    revelations. Not a valid answer, so Heinlein simply tosses this away.

A2: Genetics tells us incest reinforces some bad characteristics.  Note, it
    also tells us it reinforces many good ones, but you have to cull.
    Something most of us find deplorable, including Heinlein's characters
    though they are glib about it.

Thus if the factor of genetic risk can be eliminated then their is nothing
to make incest bad. Genetics makes incest only a matter of genetic
ignorance.

>>It's much simpler and undoubtedly more correct to say that Heinlein is
>>*exploring* various situations -- not promulgating them, just taking a
>>look at them.  Is that so hard to accept?

> It's not hard to accept because to a significant extent it's true.
> However, Heinlein does not seem to be making a random selection of
> situations to explore, so that can't be all there is to it.

Well, Heinlein has always struck me has a bit of a huckster.  I think he
chose some topics just for their controversial nature.  Religion, politics
and sex all figure prominently in his books.  Remember this is the man who
said "put it on the market and keep it their until it sells" about writing.

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 16:02:10 GMT
From: ethan@ut-emx.uucp (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

hester@ICS.UCI.EDU (Jim Hester) writes:
> I disagree: Star was ruler of the universes only because Oscar didn't
> want the job.

There is never any indication anywhere in the book that Oscar could have
the job on any terms.  His status in the story that he was trained (and
perhaps bred) for a specific job.  During the job his opinion was valued
and his orders followed, the way any intelligent manager would use a
competent subordinate.  Afterwards he was kept around, in a society in
which he fulfilled a function barely distinguishable from concubinage,
because Star liked having him around.  She was certainly bright enough to
know that he would choose to leave eventually.  I assumed when I read the
story that an important element of their relationship was that he never
tried to bother her about her job.

> The universe was rational: they believed in science and genetics and
> education and thus accepted STAR as the proper ruler (much as the
> "educated" world today admits women should be equally qualified if they
> are given the same chances [environment, training, etc.] as men).
> However, Heinlein pokes holes in this view by the "reality" in his
> situation: Star has had more than her share of breaks: if any person is
> equipped through genetics, environment and training for the job, it's
> her.  Yet one good assertive shout from her man and she lapses into
> stereotypical female docility.

The society she comes from is treated so sketchily that I'm not sure where
some of these comments come from.  Star certainly treats her lover with
affection, but I'm nice to my dog.  RAH portrays her (in my opinion) as
being able to predict the outcome of arguments so well as get her way
without fail, even while suggesting compromise at every turn.

Your remaining comments seem irrelevant to the story and have to do with
our society.  I think it is difficult to argue that they apply to the
society pictured in the story without dragging in your version of RAH's
innermost thoughts.  One exception is

> .....  Note that she DID explicitly offer to drop the job if Oscar asked
> her to.

Yeah she did.  At the time I read the story I thought she was obviously
setting him up to leave.  I suppose it's possible to read the scene
differently.  Just seems unlikely.

As for this story as male fantasy...I agree with you there.  I just think
that a lot of Heinlein's version of the perfect male fantasy includes some
smart woman stage managing life so that her man can enjoy himself without
getting into too much trouble.  Not too different from the way I treat my
dog.

Ethan Vishniac
Dept of Astronomy
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
(arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
(bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 16:51:02 GMT
From: ethan@ut-emx.uucp (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
> Still, we could fit various kinds of governments on a scale:
> 
> Worst: Malicious dictatorship.
> Bad:   Self-serving government.
> Good: Benevelent dictatorship (assuming a certain amount of
>       enlightenment; if you instead assume it's unenlightened, it could
>       be as bad as a malicious dictatorship.
> Good:  Democracy with checks and balances.
> Best:  Truly beneficial (in fact) dictatorship.
>
> Why "dictatorship"? Because a single person might in fact (as a long
> shot) have the right attitude to dictate truly beneficial policies.
> Weaker forms of governmental control could not guarantee implementation
> of such a vision.

I would go further.  A truly beneficial government would be one that allows
a flexible response to changing conditions and a constant reevaluation of
the goals of the society.  No one person could ever be both this flexible,
and at all effective.  The "Truly Beneficial Dictator" is not human.

One of the reasons that I get so tired of Heinlein's asides on government
and society is that he put himself into a corner by believing both in total
individual freedom and in the necessity for an effective government that
will inevitably constrain individual freedom.  Political utopia is
inherently impossible with such views.  He may be right, but it makes
political theorizing fairly boring.  It tends to degenerate into strategies
for avoiding dealing with society.  Most of us don't have such options.

Ethan Vishniac
Dept of Astronomy
{charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
(arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
(bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 88 10:23:13 GMT
From: till@didsgn.uucp
Subject: RIP, R.A.H.

I guess, many of us mourn the death of the creator of one of the best known
immortals of science fiction (if not all of recent literature). Lazarus
Long was so much RAH that it almost hurt (and that is not meant in any
derogatory sense!).

What distinguishes Heinlein from other writers who have tackled the theme
of immortality is that he sustained the theme in his writings (albeit with
occasionally frustrating obliqueness) for the last couple of decades of his
life. This occasionally led works of dubious merit- whose rambling annoyed
even some of his true admirers (like myself).

But that is besides the point. Heinlein's true obsession (arising from his
almost fanatical sense of individuality, mingling with that incredible and,
I think, unique, sense of the importance of human relationships) was not as
morbid as many detractors would have it.

His basic motif was (and I cannot understand how this can possibly be
missed) the human confrontation with mortality- and how to deal with it.
Heinlein has to be credited with bringing the thought of physical longevity
closer to the forefront in the thoughts of his readers than anybody else I
know of. No doubt this was helped along by the fact that in his first major
dealing with the subject he did not relegate it to the realm of fantasy
(like e.g. Farmer or Zelazny), or a sideline issue, but rather made it
credible and central.

Also, I suspect, his unique way of balancing along the thin line dividing
science-fiction and fantasy, demonstrated what I suspect is a rare insight
into the mechanics of the universe. (I could go on about this, but refrain
from doing so with great difficulty...)

To close:
Considering the most favoured theories of life-after-life (if any), I think
we now have to consider three main possibilities:
1) There is a God and a devil, and at least one of them has met RAH by 
   now...
2) There is NOTHING after you croak it.
3) Reincarnation is a reality (at least occasionally).

case 1: heaven, hell (or both) will never be the same again...
case 2: all WE can do is mourn...
case 3: RAH isn't finished with us yet -and in his next incarnation
	the initials RAH are likely to be replaced by LL...
        (SO! watch for a guy with those initials- in maybe 30 years or so.)

I am loath to select between them, but if I had a choice, I'd pick #3...

P.S. Just in case there are enough of you out there interested in
immortalism in fiction and non-fiction, I'd be happy to post a brief
commented bibliography.

Till Noever
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 00:55:30 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein

> In all the Heinlein novels I have ever read, the men are in charge.

Might I remind you of "For I will fear no evil," as well as Heinlein's
latest, which is told from the point of view of a woman (The mother of
Lazarus) Yes, Heinlein portrays woman to be DIFFERENT than men, most times
he portrays them to be more logical, cutting to the quick when men stand
around debating about a problem.  Sexism?  It depends on your definition.
If you think the only differences between men and women are physical,
you're mistaken.  There are basic psychological differences.  Differences
in thought processes are the most prominent.  Heinlein often puts males "in
charge" because that is the accepted norm for the societies he's writing
about, but when you look beneath the surface, you see that often the
females are more intelligent, more logical, and are the real driving force
of the stories he writes.  (I am mostly talking about his later work, by
the way, when I say this...)

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 88 23:44:08 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Space Station Heinlein

A movement has been started on CompuServe that I thought I would pass
along.  Ray Feist, among others, are starting as major a lobbying attempt
as we can put together to get the space station named after Heinlein.

I urge everyone who is interested in seeing this happen to send a letter
suggesting the name to their representatives, and to management at NASA.
I'm not posting a sample letter because letters need to be individualized,
because if they start seeing a lot of duplicate letters they'll discount
the whole campaign.

If you believe Heinlein deserves to go to the stars with our astronauts,
write to your Senators, and to NASA, and let them know! I'll have more
information on this in the next OtherRealms, but I didn't want this to
wait.  Do it now!

Another way you can do something for Heinlein is to GIVE BLOOD. There are a
number of organizations that are organizing blood drives in his name. If
you donate blood, please mark the donor organization "Heinlein". Bjo
Trimble is putting together a drive to see how much blood can be given in
his name before Westercon here on the west coast, and there are discussions
going on about putting something together at Nolacon.

These are two positive ways you can show your respects to Heinlein, and
also do good for other people as well.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 17:33:18 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>>mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Iterrante) writes:
>>> I question the reasoning behind the hero in the story having an
>>> incestuous relationship with his mother and his "daughters".  
>
>>At risk of talking over everyone elses' heads: in TEfL, incest is defined
>>in terms of GENETICS.  If the gene charts show no danger, there's no
>>reason not to indulge in sex.
>
>That's the reasoning: Mark questions it.  He doesn't think using "incest"
>in a different sense is good enough reason for incest in the normal sense;
>or perhaps he feels the different sense is bad in itself.  Or perhaps I
>have Mark wrong.  But you're not answering his objection.

Ah, but there's the rub. He questions the reasoning, he does not state a
reasoned argument against this view of incest, nor does he explain why the
reasoning is suspect. One can question the sun and the moon until one is
blue in the face, and yet there is no opening for an answer, unless ther is
some reasoning behind the attitude. The fact that Heinlein does present
arguments for his "questioning" of the orthodox view regarding incest,
places him one step over Mark Interrante. No way can one answer his
objection before he explains WHY he objects. Even you had to resort to
conjecturing.
  
Well, not to be outdone, I'll Do some conjecturing of my own. If Mark
thinks there would be emotional complications, he is quite right, there
would, and as evidenced by the book, there were. However, if just emotional
problems are the concern, the other side of the coin would not have been
without them either. The problems would have been sublimated and redirected
by the construct that has made its home in our consciousness through all
that stuff that we soak from the environment in which we live. Lazarus Long
was a child of that era, and thus, even though having roved the galaxy and
milennia, his way would have been a more conscious version of the one he
experienced as a boy. But, BECAUSE he HAD roved the galaxy and milennia,
that's not the way it happened.
  
Instead LL had the experience to see that the problems were caused by the
morality he had aquired as a boy, and not through some absolute standard
which dictates what our reactions should be to different stimuli. And being
a rational being, he was able to reason his way into accepting this act of
incest as a positive experience.
 
I still await any reasoning or inconsistency to be stated, on why the
reasoning is not valid. Until I get it, any "answer" I offer, is pure
shadowboxing. (Well, I look good when I shadowbox, don't I ? :-)

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 88 07:37:18 GMT
From: leonard@agora.uucp (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

What annoys the h*ll out of me is that most of the complaints I heard about
Friday, were *specificly* due to two things.

First, the rape. This has been dealt with elsewhere, and I'll only comment
that many of the people I talked to about this finally agreed due to her
"upbringing" (doxy training) and her agent training she probably *would*
have the "lie back and enjoy it" attitude.

Secondarily, they objected to her being shown settling down to raise a
family at the end. "She's oh-so-competent, and he has her get married and
raise kids!!!" I have *voilent* objections to this attitude. What such
people are, in essence, doing is flaming Heinlein for not beiing
"ideologically correct".

Sorry, but while I'll agree that a woman shouldn't be forced to become a
housewife and mother, I see no reason why it should be *wrong* for one to
decide to become one!!! The attitude that it *is* wrong is just as sexist
as the one that says she shouldn't be anything else. Both are restrictive
and limit people's choices for no good reason.

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 31 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:

	   Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Bellairs (2 msgs) & 
                   Blish & Brust (2 msgs) & Duane & 
                   Ellison (4 msgs) & Gibson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 07:48:16 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: _Prelude to Foundation_ *SPOILER*

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>g-rh@cca (Richard Harter) writes:
>>_Prelude to Foundation_, here it is.  For context here are my ratings
>>of the Foundation/Robot synthesis novels:
>
>>  **	Foundation's Edge
>>  ****Robots of Dawn
>>  ***	Robots and Empire
>>  **	Foundation and Earth
>>  .	Prelude to Foundation

>Personally, I would rate them 1,3,3,0,1.

Many people did not like F&E -- personally, I felt that the portion of the
book that dealt with the dead spacer worlds was actually very good (minus
the interminable arguments for and against galaxia, of course.)

As a side note I would argue that Asimov has created the makings of a great
and powerful tragedy and has simply thrown it away.  In many ways Homo
Spacer was superior to Homo Sapiens, not only longer lived, but superior
ethically.  In the early robot stories, the point was made several times
that the three laws of robotics were a good summary of the best of human
ethics -- that it was hard to distinguish a really good ethical human from
a robot because they acted the same.  The spacers adopted the three laws
into their culture -- they had, for all practical purposes, no crime, no
war, no poverty, and no gratuitous cruelty and suffering.  Earth
represented the ancient evils of humanity -- disease, superstition, war,
crime, personal violence, and the pervasive lack of personal ethics.  And
the tragedy is that the highest state that humanity ever achieved died; it
was not viable.  In _The Caves of Steel_ the tantalizing picture of the
C/Fe synthesis is advanced; a society that unites the best of humans and
robots working together.  And this never came to pass -- another blighted
potential.

In the late bloom novels Asimov created a fairly powerful mythic figure --
the immortal Daneel, given extraordinary powers and intelligence, guardian,
protector and guide for humanity, but bound by ancient laws and
imperatives, seeking to recreate humanity in a fashion that he could serve.
And one might argue that Daneel is working out the tragedy of the spacers
on a larger scale; that robots, no matter how subtly they try, will destroy
humanity in their effort to serve it -- that galaxia is simply another
death.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 22:15:19 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: _Prelude to Foundation_ *SPOILER*

It's kind of sad when two mule-ears are arguing over whether his latest
efforts deserve 0, 1, or 2 stars.  I rethought about the ending of PF, and
I forgot just how gooey and obnoxious it really was--``my mother the car
always told me, `if you're going to found a foundation, found two of them'
''.  Not really his most profound ending.

Still I give the book 1 star--I disagreed with all of Richard's other
negative points, but didn't think PF was worth debating point by point.

g-rh@cca (Richard Harter) writes:
>Many people did not like F&E -- personally, I felt that the portion of the
>book that dealt with the dead spacer worlds was actually very good (minus
>the interminable arguments for and against galaxia, of course.)

Yes, the dead spacer worlds were actually good.  And so was the passage
through our solar system.  But all these were patched in rather arbitrarily
and unconvincingly.  Of course, I knew what the reason for the patching
was, but I still didn't like it.  What F&E completely lacked is any overall
tension pulling the plot along--"finding Earth" just didn't do the trick.

>As a side note I would argue that Asimov has created the makings of a
>great and powerful tragedy and has simply thrown it away.

That's quite believable.  The original trilogy had a gloriously epic feel
to it, expanding upward and spiraling outward with its vision matching the
story, and since then--except for R&E--that feeling has vanished, with the
vision merely stated, and the corresponding story having little to do with
said vision.

>And one might argue that Daneel is working out the tragedy of the spacers
>on a larger scale; that robots, no matter how subtly they try, will
>destroy humanity in their effort to serve it -- that galaxia is simply
>another death.

Let's hope no one tells this to Daneel!

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 00:41:17 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: _Prelude to Foundation_ *SPOILER*

g-rh@cca (Richard Harter) writes:
>_Prelude to Foundation_, here it is.  For context here are my ratings
>of the Foundation/Robot synthesis novels:
>
>  **	Foundation's Edge
>  ****	Robots of Dawn
>  ***	Robots and Empire
>  **	Foundation and Earth
>  .	Prelude to Foundation

Personally, I would rate them 1,3,3,0,1.

>The ending was so gooey and obnoxious that it almost made me physically
>ill.

The main problem with all these second bloom Asimov novels is that it is
almost impossible to not predict about 90% of the ending, just by sheer
meta-thought.  As an extreme example, I correctly identified the guilty
party in RoD just from the cover blurb.

And since no one seems to have reviewed FV2: first be aware that it has
absolutely nothing to do with FV1, for various legal reasons beyond IA's
control.  I'd give it 1 star.  Barely half the book is the actual voyage,
and the journey is far more dull than the one in FV1.  And the character-
- -character interactions along with the political machinations/messages were
far more irritating (read "gooey and obnoxious") than believable.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 20:38:44 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun.uucp (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: request for information

FNBENJ@weizmann.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
> Does anyone out there know of anything written by John Bellairs besides
> "The Face in the Frost"?  

I believe he is the author of several children's fantasy/horror books,
including the trilogy that starts with _The House With a Clock in its
Walls_ (I forget the titles of the other two -- one was _The <something>,
the Witch, and the Ring_).  Several of these are still in print in
paperback -- check the children's section of your local bookstore...

jed hartman
...{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 19:21:57 GMT
From: kalash@starnine.uucp (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: request for information

FNBENJ@weizmann.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
> Does anyone out there know of anything written by John Bellairs besides
> "The Face in the Frost"?  Thanks!

I couldn't send this to the poster, so I will post it in the hopes other
might be interested.

Saint Fidgeat and other Parodies
The Pedant and the Shuffly
The Face in the Frost
The House with a Clock in Its Walls
The Figure in the Shadows
The Letter, the Witch, and the Ring
The Dark Secret of Weatherend
The Curse of the Blue Figurine
The Treasure of Alpheus Winterborn
The Mummy, the Will, and the Crypt
The Spell of the Sorcerer's Skull
The Revenge of the Wizard's Ghost
The Eyes of the Killer Robot

Joe Kalash

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 18:12:28 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: James Blish books

I post this because of the recent interest/discussion of James Blish.  From
the July 1988 issue of Analog "Reference Library", by Tom Easton:

 "Some of you will be delighted to hear that the late James Blish,
  noted SF critic, essayist, author of _A_Case_of_Conscience_, the
  _Cities_in_Flight_ series, _Black_Easter_, and more, is back, twice
  over.  _The_Tale_That_Wags_the_God_, edited by Cy Chauvin, collects
  several of his essays, including one exercise in autobiography, and
  an interview conducted by Brian Aldiss.  David Ketterer's
  _Imprisoned_in_a_Tesseract:_The_Life_and_Work_of_James_Blish_ examines
  Blish's work with the eye of an academic critic fond of finding hidden
  meanings, subtleties, and interconnections."

It goes on to review the took books.  If you're interested, look up the
magazine.  It's the latest issue (I just got it in the mail last night) and
should be on the stands now, or within the next couple of weeks.

Everett Kaser
(503) 750-3569
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 16:39:04 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Taltos

Well I finally found and finished _Taltos_. While it didn't answer many of
my questions about either Gods or Demons, it did demonstrate that there are
other life-forms on Dragaera than just Dragaerans and Easterners. I guess
I'll have to be satisfied with that for now.

It was a good read. I was half expecting another _Tekla_, but it was more
in the adventure line of _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_. I didn't dislike _Tekla_ but
it sure threw me for a loop. It seems that we've just about run out of past
history at this point, so I imagine that the next book will be dealing some
more with Vlad's moral re-awakening. _Taltos_ does give us just a hint of
that. I'm looking forward to Vlad's further adventures. (Are you listening,
Mr. Brust?). With seventeen Houses, we've got fourteen more titles to go!
:-)

I was particularly amused by the reference to Zork. Did anyone else catch
it?

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 18:11:10 GMT
From: scottsc@microsoft.uucp (Scott Schultz)
Subject: Re: Stephen Brust (really Brokedown Palace)

dzoey@terminus.umd.edu (Joe I. Herman) writes:
> As I am reading the book, the allegory of revolution comes on so strong
> as to be almost distracting.  I keep trying to assign characters their
> functional counter parts.

(stuff deleted about which character represents what aspects)

> What do you folks think?

Revolution? I don't think so. While Mr. Herman's analysis has some merit, I
disagree with it. I think the birth/death/rebirth theme recurrent
throughout the book is a lot closer to a "hidden meaning" if it has one at
all. Most likely, _Brokedown Palace_ is another avenue of exploration for
Mr. Brust's philosophies. The story is about rebirth in the midst of decay,
those who oppose and those who support it, and the inevitable defeat of
those who oppose it. It's more of an allegory for life than for the kind of
political revolution that Mr. Herman is describing.

None of the characters are portrayed as evil or even bad. Even Verra, the
Demon Goddess is truly upset at the way events turned out. Laszlo's sense
of duty blinds him but even Miklos comes to realize at the last that
"...this is what it means to be king." because a good king puts duty above
(nearly) all else.

Particularly in light of _Tekla_ and the similar moral death/rebirth that
Vlad undergoes in that book I have trouble looking at this as a political
allegory. If there is anything allegorical about it I would tend to
interpret it at a spiritual rather than a political allegory.

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 16:09:29 GMT
From: kra@hpcndaw.hp.com (K. R. Albitz)
Subject: "The Door into Whatever" -- Duane

I read here many months back about the third and fourth of Diane Duane's
"Door" books: "The Door into Sunset" and "The Door into Starlight".
Yesterday I tried to order them from my local bookstore and I find that
they do not exist, at least they are not listed in Books In Print or in the
bookstore's handy book of upcoming publications. What gives?  Do any of you
know if these two books exist? Does anyone have them?  How about a short
review?

Thanks.

KRA

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 01:00:40 GMT
From: newsome@dasys1.uucp (Richard Newsome)
Subject: Ellison/Last Dangerous Visions Query

Does anyone out there in netland know whatever happened to THE LAST
DANGEROUS VISIONS? I used to have a copy of SF Review lying around
somewhere that gave the table of contents and promised that it would be
coming out Real Soon Now; that was years ago and I haven't heard any more
about it.

Richard Newsome
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!newsome

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 16:14:54 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ellison/Last Dangerous Visions Query

>Does anyone out there in netland know whatever happened to THE LAST
>DANGEROUS VISIONS? I used to have a copy of SF Review lying around
>somewhere that gave the table of contents and promised that it would be
>coming out Real Soon Now; that was years ago and I haven't heard any more
>about it.

It'll be out Real Soon Now. 

Seriously, Ellison is supposed to still be working on it, but it hasn't
gone to the publisher yet. That means it's at least two years away, because
of the size of the project (last I heard, probably three hardcover volumes,
give or take 100,000 words).

I personally feel it'll be published posthumously, because Ellison has so
much emotion invested in the silly thing by now he won't ship it to the
publisher until it's perfect, and it'll never be perfect enough for him.

By now, ANYTHING that's published will be anti-climax, too. But there are
some stories in there I really want to see.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 20:09:13 GMT
From: macbeth@artecon.uucp (Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Ellison/Last Dangerous Visions Query

newsome@dasys1.UUCP (Richard Newsome) writes:
>Does anyone out there in netland know whatever happened to THE LAST
>DANGEROUS VISIONS? I used to have a copy of SF Review lying around
>somewhere that gave the table of contents and promised that it would be
>coming out Real Soon Now; that was years ago and I haven't heard any more
>about it.

Ellison commented in an article (in the foreword to AGAIN, DANGEROUS
VISIONS?)  he'd just about run out of gas on the DANGEROUS VISIONS series.
I also think that society changed such that the DV concept ("thinking the
unthinkable") became just a _whole_ lot harder to bring off. Stories
featuring incest, decadence, homosexuality, and murder are on "Days of Our
Lives" every week.  This isn't to say that there isn't plenty of
opportunity for writers to write tales that challenge our most firmly-held
beliefs, just that it ain't as easy as it was back in the 60's.

I was not impressed with ADV. The stories just didn't have the same
firepower as those from Sturgeon, Bloch, Farmer, et al. in the first book.

David Macy-Beckwith
Artecon, Inc.
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!hp-sdd!artecon!macbeth  

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 88 11:27:56 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Ellison/Last Dangerous Visions Query

> Ellison commented in an article (in the foreword to AGAIN, DANGEROUS
> VISIONS?  he'd just about run out of gas on the DANGEROUS VISIONS series.
> I also think that society changed such that the DV concept ("thinking the
> unthinkable") became just a _whole_ lot harder to bring off. Stories
> featuring incest, decadence, homosexuality, and murder are on "Days of
> Our Lives" every week.  I was not impressed with ADV. The stories just
> didn't have the same firepower> as those from Sturgeon, Bloch, Farmer, et
> al. in the first book.

A number of INCREDIBLE writers have gotten into the field since the early
'70s; John Varley, Greg Bear, Joan Vinge, Tim Powers, and Connie Willis to
name just a few.  I believe many of these writers have already been asked
to participate.  Cordwainer Smith, who died back in the '70s, will have a
story in the *Last* Dangerous Visions.

I can't explain why Ellison is procrastinating about this project so much.
I heard three years ago that he had 5 VOLUMES worth of material.  One
poster suggested that LDV might be published only after Ellison died, which
I think is a shame.  Ellison, after all, has plans to be SF's crotchety old
man, just like Shaw was theater's.  I believe Shaw lived to be 90.  This
means we might see LDV in about 35 years...

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 
harvard!anvil!es!mann

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 14:46:31 GMT
From: codas!novavax!maddoxt@moss.att.com (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: Let's see what the net knows.

jellinghaus-robert@CS.Yale.EDU (Rob Jellinghaus) writes:
>5) What about William Gibson's screenplay for _Aliens III_?
>6) What about the _Neuromancer_ computer game?

   Gibson's still working on _Aliens III_.  Because the project is a movie
and therefore subject to a thousand vagaries of fate and chance, many
things will happen before (or *if*) the film gets done with Gibson's
script.
   Last I heard, Tim Leary and company were still working on this one, but
whether the game has any ties to the (apparently stalled) _Neuromancer_
film project, I don't know.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 31 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 182

Today's Topics:

			Films - Willow (10 msgs) &
                                The Lady In White & 
                                Dune

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 May 88 18:12:37 GMT
From: russell@eneevax.uucp (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>Willow, a frustrated apprentice wizard, transforms a troll
>into the "Siskbert,"  an ugly, two-headed, dragon-like creature.

This is VERY FUNNY.  

I never would have noticed this if Laurie hadn't pointed out the monster's
name, but it is obvious to me that naming the "ugly, two-headed,
dragon-like creature" a SISKBERT is a pointed jab at Siskel & Ebert (Gene
Siskel and Roger Ebert), two movie critics who host a television show
called "At the Movies", a movie review program.

I love it.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.eng.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 18:30:18 GMT
From: eliz@bu-cs.bu.edu (Elizabeth A. Lear)
Subject: Trivia from WILLOW

First, I'd like to say that I really liked this movie.  My friends and I
saw it last night, and we had a great time.  The whole audience was
cheering and laughing and applauding throughout the movie.  We'll most
likely go see it again in a few weeks.

> As for the actors, Most of the main characters were played by people I'd
>heard of before. Probably the only ones I hadn't seen before were the ones
>who played the brownies.

I think you've seen at least one of them before - the shorter one was
played by an actor whose name escapes me (and I missed it in the credits),
but I'm fairly sure he played "Squiggy" of Lenny & Squiggy on "Laverne and
Shirley".  We thought the taller one would be the guy who played "Lenny",
but I'm not too sure...  It makes sense if you remember that "Laverne &
Shirley" was a spin-off from "Happy Days" .. and we all know who was in
"HD"...

eliz

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 18:57:06 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW (SPOILER)

>>Madmartigan is accidently sprinkled with brownie "love dust" and makes a
>>play for the woman.  After a little back and forth, she abrubtly switches
>>allegiences, from her mother to Madmartigan.  I thought this was both
>>stupid and unnecessary.
> 
> queen's aid did foretell that the daughter would betray her.

The movie actually needed this.  Most of the way through this thing, I
waited for the requisite romantic interlude.  I also wondered, if this baby
survives (and it has to - this is family entertainment), who is going to
raise the little stinker?  Ah, red-headed cute baby captures affection of
everyone; Han Solo-type warrior falls for red-headed gorgeous lady warrior;
the elf wants to go home; therefore, obvious parent figures are Madmartigan
and Sorsha (sp?).  And the baby will fulfill destiny by being (adopted)
daughter of the obvious successor of mad-queen.

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 01:55:45 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: WILLOW Comments

Yes, the "siskbert" was a deliberate jab at Rog 'n' Gene.  And General Kael
was a stab at Pauline Kael.  All kinds of people engage in in-jokes---after
all, think of all the computer in-jokes we come into contact with EVERY
DAY!  (Even UNIX is an "in-joke!")  I thought they were a little clever
without being overly burdensome.

The brownies: The shorter brownie is the English actor Bob Hoskins (anybody
out there see _Mona Lisa_?)  The taller one may be the same actor who
played Lenny in _Laverne and Shirley_ but as I didn't stay for the credits,
I missed who the actor was.

It's interesting to note that Warwick Davis (?---the actor who played
Willow) played Wicket the Ewok when he was 11 years old.  Since _Return of
the Jedi_ was filmed in early '82, he was only 16 when he played Willow.
Not your average teenage actor by any means.

When I go see the movie again, I'll pay a little more attention to Sorsha,
the queen's "indecisive" daughter.  Many of you made excellent comments to
me on her change of heart, so I need to keep an eye out on that.

_Willow_ grossed about $8.5 million last weekend, topping the second place
movie by $.5 million.  It'll be interesting to see how the movie fares
against CDII and RIII over Memorial Day Weekend.

By the way, tomorrow marks the 11th anniversary of opening of _Star Wars_.
I'll never forget that date---I saw the movie on my honeymoon!

Laurie Mann
Stratus Computer,  M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752
Work phone (8:30-5EDT): 617-460-2610 
Internet:  lmann@jjmhome.UUCP
UUCP:  harvard!anvil!es!mann

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 13:44:22 GMT
From: dan@speedy.cs.wisc.edu (Dan Frank)
Subject: In-jokes in WILLOW

   Excuse me, but was anyone's enjoyment of WILLOW compromised by missing
one of those digs at movie critics?  Everyone who is complaining about them
also understood them.  What if you hadn't?  Did you have to know who
Pauline Kael was to understand the character of General Kael?  I was
watching for some reference to the two-headed monster as "siskbert" or
whatever, and to my knowledge no one ever said, "Oh, no, it's the
Siskbert!", or, "I'm being eaten by the Ebersisk!"  Mostly, they were all
screaming, "Auuugggggghhhh!  Run!"  This is an "in" joke?
   WILLOW is not AIRPLANE.  It is not filled with topical humor that you
could miss if you're not "hip".  You may like it or hate it (I liked it,
although I found it less interesting than many of Lucas' other movies), but
this in-joke thing is just so much pointless Lucas-bashing.  Sort of like
Pauline Kael ...

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 19:01:33 GMT
From: rosner@speedy.cs.wisc.edu (Carolyn Rosner)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
> No, I'd say it's probably a *direct* dig at them. Does anyone know if
> they've reviewed the film yet? I'd love to know their reaction to this!

I heard Siskbert (Ebersisk?) (otherwise known in my house as Baldy and
Fatty) review "Willow" this past weekend and they didn't mention their
namesake monster at all, at least not that I heard.  They both panned the
movie, btw.

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 17:40:58 GMT
From: erc@tybalt.caltech.edu (Eric R. Christian)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW (SPOILER)

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>There was one element I really hated, and it detracted from my overall
>positive view of the movie.  The queen's daughter leads the queen's men in
>search of the baby.  She's a warrior, not just a figurehead.  Madmartigan
>is accidently sprinkled with brownie "love dust" and makes a play for the
>woman.  After a little back and forth, she abrutly switches allegiences,
>from her mother to Madmartigan.  I thought this was both stupid and
>unnecessary.

I have not seen the movie yet, but I heard about this problem.  Apparently
a piece of the plot was missing from the movie (maybe only from the final
edit).  During the chase, the queen's daughter chases Madmartigan et. al.
into an abandoned castle, where they find that all the people have been
encased in stone.  She recognizes the ruler of the castle as her father,
and figures out that the curse was her mother's doing, and this is one of
the major reasons she then shifts sides.  Apparently there is a celebration
in a castle at the end of the movie that actually takes place at the now
restored castle of the father instead of the mother's castle.

This information comes second-hand from another adaptation of the story, I
think the comic book version.

Eric R. Christian
erc@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 23:22:27 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>>Wonder if this is a play on words and an indirect dig
>>at film reviewers Siskel and Ebert??
> 
> No, I'd say it's probably a *direct* dig at them. Does anyone know if
> they've reviewed the film yet? I'd love to know their reaction to this!

I had heard that they didn't like the movie before I even went to see it.
Usually, I enjoy what they dislike, so I figured it had to be a winner.

After seeing a two-headed dragon-like creature standing in the muck, each
head flaming in a different direction from the other, then having it dawn
on me that this "Siskbert" was a cut at them, I can well understand what
they didn't like.  Hell, if it were me, I would have been flattered to be
immortalized that way.

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 88 16:31:49 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

mmr@nebula.ATT.COM (Head Crimestopper) writes:
>lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>> Willow, a frustrated apprentice wizard, transforms a troll
>> into the "Siskbert,"  an ugly, two-headed, dragon-like creature.
>
>Wonder if this is a play on words and an indirect dig at film
>reviewers Siskel and Ebert??

Uh, lemme just take one step back.  I don't recall any creature or
character named the Siskbert in the film, though I might've missed such a
reference.  Looking in the production notes given out at the screening,
which lists all the characters, creatures, etc. in the credits, there is no
such reference.

Are y'all sure you saw this?  I'll be seeing the film again this week, and
will keep my eyes (and ears) open, preparing to eat my words...  Unitl
then, a slight note of skepticism...

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 09:45:19 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>>> Willow, a frustrated apprentice wizard, transforms a troll
>>> into the "Siskbert,"  an ugly, two-headed, dragon-like creature.
>
> Uh, lemme just take one step back.  I don't recall any creature or
> character named the Siskbert in the film, though I might've missed such a
> reference.  Looking in the production notes given out at the screening,
> which lists all the characters, creatures, etc. in the credits, there is
> no such reference.

"Siskbert" was the "dragon's" nickname.  It wasn't an "official" name.  It
seemed fitting.

You may remember that the shark in Jaws was called "Bruce."  This name
never appeared officially, but the word got out.

Laurie Mann
Stratus Computer,  M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752
Work phone (8:30-5EDT): 617-460-2610 
Internet:  lmann@jjmhome.UUCP
UUCP:  harvard!anvil!es!mann

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 11:13:14 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@mtune.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: THE LADY IN WHITE

			     THE LADY IN WHITE
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Twenty years from now LADY IN WHITE
     will be considered one of the best ghost stories ever put on
     film.   Frank LaLoggia has made a beautiful film that raises
     more than a little gooseflesh.  Rating: +3.

     Oddly enough, while the ghost story is probably the most commonly
written breed of horror story, it is very uncommon as a type of horror
film.  Perhaps there is a feeling that they do not translate well to film.
Ghost stories are usually mood pieces and directors who know how to capture
moods generally have other kinds of films they want to make.  Ghost stories
that have really worked on film have done so by hinting and by creating
a--let's be frank--morbid mood in the audience.  The good ones have been
THE HAUNTING, THE INNOCENTS, THE UNINVITED, and perhaps THE CHANGELING.
(Hmmm.  I never noticed before how similar the titles were.)  Two films
that definitely do not make it as ghost stories are GHOST STORY and
POLTERGEIST.  While I liked POLTERGEIST, it was really more science fiction
on the astral plane than a ghost story.  Each of these two films has been
too overpowering to make it as the subtle mood piece that a good ghost tale
should be.  In fact, of the classic ghost stories I mentioned, only one was
even in color.  The other three depended on a dark mood that is very hard
to achieve in color.  Now a ghost story has come along on film that ranks
with the classics--perhaps even surpasses them.  LADY IN WHITE is a ghost
story in color, but it never overwhelms.  It is a very fine mood piece and
the use of color in the film enhances the mood rather than fighting it.
And the story is worthy of the mood, and the photography is worthy of the
story.

     LADY IN WHITE was written, directed, scored, and produced by Frank
LaLoggia.  That can be either a very good sign or a very bad sign in a low-
budget film.  LADY IN WHITE is very clearly one man's vision and dream
brought to the screen.  I grew up in New England and I can tell you that no
other place have I seen where autumn is so melodramatic.  The world turns
bright hues of red and brown and yellow as it rages against the dying of
the warm.  LaLoggia captures the melancholic autumn with a small town feel
somewhere between that of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD and SOMETHING WICKED THIS
WAY COMES.  Like those films, this is a story of children and growth, but
it also raises gooseflesh in ways that are all too rare in horror films.

     It is, in fact, the story of Frankie Scarlatti, whom I suspect is made
up in no small part of little Frankie LaLoggia from about 25 years ago.
Frankie loves Halloween and monsters of all sorts.  he tells such a good
Halloween story of the "prehysterical" monster that stomps London that
jealous classmates arrange for him to be locked in the cloakroom closet.
In the old school that has served generations, years mean very little and
he is visited by the spirit of a little girl his own age, or she was when
she died eleven years earlier...a death that the spirit must re-live over
and over.

     Even if the main story were not good--and it is--this would be a
marvelously textured film.  Characters like Frankie's grandfather, his
father, and his brother are drawn with a loving pen.  Frankie himself is
played by Lucas Haas who, young as he is, is the veteran of films like
TESTAMENT and WITNESS.  the film carries the viewer along, often to
unexpected vistas, without making one false move until the final five
minutes.  LaLoggia has problems ending the story without making it a little
goofy and a little cliched.  But until the final minutes of the film LADY
IN WHITE is a positive gem of filmmaking.  Even mistakes in the special
effects work for the film.  Rate it an admiring +3 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 88 01:02:29 GMT
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.com (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: DUNE released in original 3 1/2 Hour, uncut version -- on the tube!

Maybe this is old news to the rec.arts.sf-lovers, but...

As most of you know, David Lynch's film DUNE was released in a 140-minute
version in the theaters, and later on video and pay-TV.  Well, according to
the Friday Seattle Times, the original, 3 1/2 hour uncut version will be
playing -- on free TV! -- the second week in June in Seattle.

Has this happened in other cities?  I expected that the DUNE-lovers would
have been huzzah-ing over this before now.  I saw the cut-up version (which
I assume anyone who saw the picture -- up to now -- has seen).

For Seattle folks, it's on June 7th, 8 PM, Channel 13 (which has limited
intermissions anyway).

Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uw-beaver, sun, microsoft}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 31 May 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 183

Today's Topics:

		   Books - McCaffrey (4 msgs) & Rucker &
                           Sheckley & Simak & 
                           Spinrad (4 msgs) & Transue

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 May 88 19:27:27 GMT
From: cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu
Subject: Life on Pern

After spending several hours digesting my latest re-read (I do this about
every two years) of Dragonriders and the other Pern books, I began to
wonder about the following question:

If thread falls every 200 turns, how did organic life manage to ever evolve
there?

Consider: thread eats *all* organic material eventually (I remember
refrences to fertile soil being reduced to dust).  The grubs weren't
developed until *after* the colonists landed.  It is true that
Fire-lizzards can eat thread, but how could they have developed this
ability when the lizzards themselves couldn't survive threadfall.

Possible answer #1:

The Red Star was captured well after life had evolved on Pern.  However,
this still leaves the problem of how life continued up to the point where
the colonists arrived.

Possible answer #2:

The Red Star was captured just as the colony was planted.  This solves the
continuation problem, but then there is the sticky problem of how
Fire-lizzards could eat thread.  (It has been 2400 turns since the first
recorded pass.  a mere eyeblink in evolutionary terms.)

Dragonriders is still one of my favorite series.  However, things like this
bug me at the most inoppertune moments.

Taki Kogoma
{ucbvax,gatech,ames}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!charon!cs2551aq             
cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu                            

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 23:30:15 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Life on Pern

cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk) writes:
> After spending several hours digesting my latest re-read (I do this about
> every two years) of Dragonriders and the other Pern books, I began to
> wonder about the following question:
>
> If thread falls every 200 turns, how did organic life manage to ever
> evolve there?
>
> Consider: thread eats *all* organic material eventually (I remember
> refrences to fertile soil being reduced to dust).  The grubs weren't
> developed until *after* the colonists landed.  It is true that
> Fire-lizzards can eat thread, but how could they have developed this
> ability when the lizzards themselves couldn't survive threadfall.
 
Go back and note the reaction of Thread to free water (oceans, lakes, ...
presumably rain).

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 20:40:22 GMT
From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval)
Subject: Re: Life on Pern

cs2551aq@charon.unm.edu writes:
> If thread falls every 200 turns, how did organic life manage to ever
> evolve there?
>
> Consider: thread eats *all* organic material eventually (I remember
> refrences to fertile soil being reduced to dust).  The grubs weren't
> developed until *after* the colonists landed.  It is true that
> Fire-lizzards can eat thread, but how could they have developed this
> ability when the lizzards themselves couldn't survive threadfall.

As I recall, Thread doesn't survive in seawater, either. Thus, plenty of
good stuff in the sea. For sea-critters, spending most time on land and
retreating to the sea is not a bad way to avoid Threadfall.

Unfortunately, the logical conclusion for this is that all the critters on
Pern should be amphibious, since every 200 turns the strictly land-based
critters get killed off.

On the other hand, Thread, once established, wouldn't be able to cross
water, barren terrain, and excessively cold places, so there should be
places where the Thread does not fall and does not establish itself, so
pockets of land critters might survive. Also, cave-dwellers should get by.
It just means a near-extinction for all the critters and plants every 200
turns -- critters and plants would breed rapidly, grow quickly, have
incredible metabolisms to sustain the growth and birth rates. Strange
ecology.

> Possible answer #1:
>
> The Red Star was captured well after life had evolved on Pern.  However,
> this still leaves the problem of how life continued up to the point where
> the colonists arrived.

This is possible, also, but requires some pretty rapid adaptation by the
critters.

> Possible answer #2:
>
> The Red Star was captured just as the colony was planted.  This solves
> the continuation problem, but then there is the sticky problem of how
> Fire-lizzards could eat thread.  (It has been 2400 turns since the first
> recorded pass.  a mere eyeblink in evolutionary terms.)
>
> Dragonriders is still one of my favorite series.  However, things like
> this bug me at the most inoppertune moments.

On the other hand, maybe it's just a story. Nahh.

Dan C Duval
Measurement Systems Division
Tektronix, Inc.
dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM
tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 02:06:18 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Life on Pern

cs2551aq@unmc.UUCP writes:
>If thread falls every 200 turns, how did organic life manage to ever
>evolve there?

There is, I seem to remember, some evidence that the thread is not really
viable in Pernese conditions.  It will live for a few days or weeks, but
eventually dies -- and not just from lack of food.

In this case, threadfall will have effects somewhat like forest fires:
large tracts will be destroyed, but much will remain.  (More destructive
and larger areas than most forest fires, but that's not the point.)

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 19:23:26 GMT
From: paulf@shasta.stanford.edu (Paul A. Flaherty)
Subject: Rudy Rucker's _Software_

I saw this book hanging on the shelves down at Tower Records.  The cover
proclaims something to the effect that _Software_ was the start of
cyberpunk.  Needless to say, I had to read it.

The story line evolves around Cobb Anderson, who led a revolt of sentient,
replicating robots on the moon in 2001.  Many years later, the robots wish
to pay back Anderson, by making him immortal.

The style and imagery remind me of the movie _Heavy Metal_; so much so that
I think Rucker ran out of the movie house to get to a typewriter.  In any
event, almost all of the topics in the book have been covered elsewhere.

What made _Software_ a good read was the maniac, comical style that Rucker
has.  The characters are cartoonish.  But, I got a few good laughs out of
it, especially with Anderson's attempt to start a religious cult.

Paul Flaherty
Computer Systems Laboratory
Stanford University        
paulf@shasta.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 21:41:40 GMT
From: codas!safari!argent!ariel@moss.att.com (Ariel Shattan @argent)
Subject: Re: Let's see what the net knows.(Sheckley)

Robert Sheckley's latest book is Hunter/Victim.  It's out in paperback, and
I've even seen it in Safeway (but buy from your local small bookseller).

Ariel Shattan
..!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!littlei!papyrus!ariel

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 15:31:53 GMT
From: codas!alberta!gordon@moss.att.com (Gordon Atwood)
Subject: Clifford D. Simak Book List

On or around May 9, 1988 there was a request for a list of books by
Clifford D. Simak.  Since no one else has responded I nominate myself.

I have only included book titles.  The bibliography of Simak in my copy of
Project Pope indicates that he has more than 30 books and more than 200
stories.  I have exactly 30 books, so I would greatly appreciate it if
anyone can supply the missing titles (if there are any).

All of the following titles exist [they are sitting on my shelf].

A Choice of Gods
A Heritage of Stars
All Flesh is Grass
All the Traps of Earth and Other Stories
Cemetary World
City
Cosmic Engineers
Destiny Doll
Enchanted Pilgrimage
The Fellowship of the Talisman
The Goblin Reservation
Mastadonia
Our Children's Children
Out of their Minds
Project Pope
Ring Around the Sun
Shakespeare's Planet
Skirmish
So Bright the Vision
Special Deliverance
They Walked Like Men
Time and Again
Time is the Simplest Thing
The Trouble with Tycho
The Visitors
Way Station
The Werewolf Principle
Where the Evil Dwells
Worlds Without End
Why Call them Back from Heaven?

The only other book that I know of is listed in the front page of one of
the above books (exactly as shown below):

     Strangers in the Universe
         (Selections)

I'm not sure what this is, it may be a collection of selected works, it may
even be two books.

One other title which I believe to be a short story (but I didn't notice it
during my hurried search thru my collection last night) is

     The Big Front Yard

Some of the above books duplicate stories although none of them are
completely redundant.

I would also be very grateful if someone could supply a list of stories
which DON'T appear in the above books (i.e. appeared in magazines only).

G.H.A.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 07:14:38 GMT
From: wphughes@violet.waterloo.edu (William Hughes)
Subject: Re: Iron Dream review.

yerazunis@cthulu.DEC.COM writes:
>>Could someone please give a short review of Norman Spinrad's THE IRON
>>DREAM?
>...This is not to say that the book is based upon anti-semitism.

But a strong parellel is there, the Dominators, evil mutants who have mind
control are clearly inspired by "Hitler's" view of the Jews.

>In that universe, Adolph Hitler became a well-thought-of literary figure
>(akin to JRR Tolkein) and is remembered with kindness and respect.

The only relation between the "Hitler" of Spinrad's novel and Tolkien is
that they are both dead writers.  (When "The Iron Dream" was written there
was not even that much resemblance, Tolkien was still alive.)  In most ways
"Hitler" was presented as very different from Tolkien.

>After setting this scene, the book presents AH's "best-loved novel, winner
>of the Hugo, Nebula, et al" called _The Iron Dream_.

"Adolf Hitler's" "novel" is called "Lord of the Swastika".  The novel is
only said to have won a Hugo (described by Spinrad, through the device of
his literary critic "Homer Whiple of New York University", as "a somewhat
dubious literary credential").  The writing in "Lord of the Swastika" is
(intentionally) quite bad.

>_Iron Dream_ (the interior book) is based _very_ roughly on LoTR; loosely
>enough that ID is a reasonable work on it's own.  Where the interior book
>shines is in how it remains at the same time faithful to Tolkein style,
>plotting, and characterization, while clearly being the product of a
>recognizable Adolph Hitler.

"Lord of the Swastika" is not based on LoTR except for the parallel title.
The plot is based based rather closely on WW2, or more exactly on how the
real Hitler might have seen WW2.  The style and characterization are based
on the pulp "heroic barbarian warior" genre (to which LoTR can be said to
be loosely related but in no way belongs).  The devastating point of "The
Iron Dream" is how easily Spinrad fits Hitler's psychotic world view into
this genre.  The book is terrific satire for this reason.  Spinrad gets a
bit heavy handed at times especially in a "review" by "Homer Whiple" in
which he carefully states all the things that the book "Lord of the
Swastika" satirizes.

"The Iron Dream" is well worth reading, but be prepared to feel slightly
ill.

William Hughes

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 23:04:18 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Iron Dream review.

yerazunis@cthulu.DEC.COM writes:
>_Iron Dream_ (the interior book) is based _very_ roughly on LoTR; loosely
>enough that ID is a reasonable work on it's own.  Where the interior book
>shines is in how it remains at the same time faithful to Tolkein style,
>plotting, and characterization, while clearly being the product of a
>recognizable Adolph Hitler.

   Nein, nein, nein. Not Tolkien. _Iron Dream_ is modeled on the Robert E.
Howard kind of heroic fantasy and, more broadly, is a parody- cum-attack on
all SF and fantasy of the male-adolescent-power-trip variety.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 19:27:28 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Re: _The_Iron_Dream_ by Norman Spinrad

PSST001@dtuzdv1.bitnet (Michael Maisack) writes:
>Could someone please give a short review of Norman Spinrad's THE IRON
>DREAM?

SP.HOWITT@speech.mit.EDU ("Andrew Wilson Howitt") writes:
>I can tell you about the first half.  The premise is that Adolf Hitler
>moves to America in his youth and becomes a science fiction writer, and
>writes the manuscript of _The_Iron_Dream_: a story of a charismatic young
>man who arrives in a decadent country and leads it to glory via
>discipline, enforced bloodily by cadres of fanatic followers.  Turns out
>he's predestined to rule, and all who oppose him end up dead or devoted to
>him.
>
>I'm afraid the Nazi-wet-dream tone was messing with my head and I didn't
>finish it.  I hope Spinrad had some kind of a twist ending...  can anyone
>else help out?

Ack.  It's been a long time since I read it.

I can understand the remark about ``messing with my head''; that was
exactly what Spinrad was trying to do, with substantial success,
I thought.  He was trying to make a number of points about mass
psychology and the phenomenom of Nazism.

The book ends with an `essay' by an `academic' from the same alternate
world as the sf author Hitler, explaining how unreasonable and improbable
the mass behavior displayed in the story is.  Given that we have
seen the Nazis, and Hitler, and given the fact that despite themselves,
most people get a little caught up in the narrative, this essay
is probably the most upsetting feature of the book.  If you don't mind
having an author ``messing with your head'', I'd say that you should
read this book.  Don't expect to enjoy it much, though.

Richard Welty
GE R&D, K1-5C39
Niskayuna, New York
518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{uunet,philabs,rochester}!steinmetz!welty

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 19:30:02 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: _The_Iron_Dream_ by Norman Spinrad

SP.HOWITT@speech.mit.EDU ("Andrew Wilson Howitt") writes:
>PSST001@dtuzdv1.bitnet (Michael Maisack) writes:
>>Could someone please give a short review of Norman Spinrad's THE IRON
>>DREAM?
>
>I can tell you about the first half.  The premise is that Adolf Hitler
>moves to America in his youth and becomes a science fiction writer, and
>writes the manuscript of _The_Iron_Dream_: a story of a charismatic young
>man who arrives in a decadent country and leads it to glory via
>discipline, enforced bloodily by cadres of fanatic followers.  Turns out
>he's predestined to rule, and all who oppose him end up dead or devoted to
>him.
>
>I'm afraid the Nazi-wet-dream tone was messing with my head and I
>didn't finish it.  I hope Spinrad had some kind of a twist ending...

The Iron Dream is not the kind of a book that has a twist ending.  Rather,
it is a psycho-study of Hitler, and comdemnation of sword-and-sorcery type
books which Spinrad is showing have a Nazi mentality.  The premise is that
Hitler moved to the US after a brief disastrous political affair (the
putsch) and becomes very active in fandom.  After a while, he writes 'The
Lord of the Swastikas', the text of which takes up 4/5 of the book.  This
is followed by an analysis of Hitler's Hugo winning novel by a
psychoanalyst, thru which we are told a lot about the universe in which it
was possible for Hitler to have written this.

After all, WWII never took place...

The Iron Dream works on several levels, and while I can certainly
sympathize how it might have played with your head (it did so with mine) it
is hard to see the impact of the book beyond the initial gimmick without
reading >all< the text included with it--particularly the parts not
'written' by Hitler.

Jim Freund	
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 16:54:42 GMT
From: mctst@cisunx.uucp (Mary C. Tabasko)
Subject: Jacob Transue, _The_Twilight_of_the_Basilisks_

I just finished reading _The_Twilight_of_the_Basilisks_ by Jacob Transue.
Does anyone know of anything else he has written? I had never heard of him
until I picked this paperback up in a used book store. I enjoyed the book
- -- not great, but good enough to make me curious. I'd appreciate any
enlightenment the collective intelligence of the net can provide. Anybody
else out there read this book?

Thanks,

Mary Tabasko
371 S. Negley Ave., Apt. 5
Pittsburgh, PA 15232  
412/362-0544 
10345_336101@pittvms.BITNET
mctst@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP
tabasko@idis.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 1 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 184

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 21:41:12 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

jvh@clinet.FI (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen) writes:
>g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>>The problem that would arise in Heinlein "polite" societies [the armed
>>society of Beyond This Horizon, the anarchism of The Moon is a Harsh
>>Mistress] is that it leaves lots of scope for bullies to operate.
>
>Hmm. This MIGHT be the case, but I certainly have trouble seeing it...  In
>such "polite societies" ganging up would be severely frowned upon, and
>likely as not, people would SPONTANEOUSLY get together and teach the guys
>a short lesson in dying. This certainly was mentioned in Moon Is A Harsh
>Mistress, in the guise of a dirtside mob-leader swiftly being given a lot
>of room to operate--on the other side of the air-lock...
>
>As for societies in which duelling is actively--even though covertly--
>encouraged (Beyond This Horizon) a'la Code Duello, a bully would be
>harassed by "men of honor" (cf. Cyrano de Bergerac of the play, he WAS
>both harassed, and clearly deficient in the area of courtesy, if not wit).

   You may be right -- but I don't think the historical record bears you
out.  In Europe and the United States of two centuries ago, the "men of
honor" were quite often "bullies".  There was a class of tiger duellists,
men who were good duellists, had a taste for blood, and who provoked duels
(their honor was very easily touched.)

   It is all very well to talk about the good citizens getting together and
teaching the gang a lesson.  I don't think it works that way very well.
Look at the Wyoming range wars, for example.  There was almost no law, and
there was a proliferation of banditry (the legal system, such as it was,
had pretty much fallen into the hands of the outlaws.)  There was vigilante
justice; however the outlaw reign of terror was broken by hired killers.
The predator, the bandido, always has the advantage over the good citizen;
the predator devotes his time and efforts to conflict and violence, the
good citizen is concerned mostly with making a living and other pacific
activities.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 21:54:30 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

leonard@.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>What annoys the h*ll out of me is that most of the complaints I heard
>about Friday, were *specificly* due to two things.

People like to pick points where they think they have the strongest and
clearest case.  Unfortunately, this often leads to oversimplification and
so to a case that is weaker instead.  Those who disagree then make the same
mistake, and so it goes.

>First, the rape. This has been dealt with elsewhere, and I'll only comment
>that many of the people I talked to about this finally agreed due to her
>"upbringing" (doxy training) and her agent training she probably *would*
>have the "lie back and enjoy it" attitude.

So she'd have that attitude.  But what bothers some people is precisely
that the heroine of the novel has such an attitude, not that there's no
explanation for it in the novel, or that the explanation is unconvincing.
Why create such a character at all?  There may be a convincing
justification, but no one has bothered to give it.

I note in passing that Gibson doesn't get flamed so much for Molly.

>Secondarily, they objected to her being shown settling down to raise a
>family at the end. "She's oh-so-competent, and he has her get married and
>raise kids!!!" I have *voilent* objections to this attitude. What such
>people are, in essence, doing is flaming Heinlein for not beiing
>"ideologically correct".

Do you really think it's wrong to flame authors for their politics no
matter what those politics are?  Or is it the particular "ideology" being
employed that bothers you?  From what you say below, it seems to be the
latter.

>Sorry, but while I'll agree that a woman shouldn't be forced to become a
>housewife and mother, I see no reason why it should be *wrong* for one to
>decide to become one!!! The attitude that it *is* wrong is just as sexist
>as the one that says she shouldn't be anything else. Both are restrictive
>and limit people's choices for no good reason.

Some people do not agree that there is "no good reason".  Moreover, they
may not claim it is wrong, only a somewhat unfortunate choice.  And,
finally, it is not clear that it *is* just as sexist to say a woman should
avoid one choice -- being a housewife -- as to say that she should avoid
all other choices.

At least that is how I explain this attitude.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 19:19:50 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>>The original point was, how could Friday have eventualy married the guy
>>who raped her?
> 
> The original point was that doing so was "beyond sexism".
>>You don't have to be "open-minded toward rapists" to find that
>>believable.  You do have to find the plot that shows WHY she forgave him
>>to be believable.  I guess the only real difference in our statements is
>>that I found the plot believable, and you guys apparently didn't.  I
>>don't think there's anything else to be said.
>
> It's so much a question of whether it's believable as whether having such
> a heroine -- believable or not -- is ok.

O.K. all you S.F. fans and Heinlein advocates and detractors, have any of
you read C.J. Cherryh's DOWNBELOW STATION that got the Hugo for best novel
in 1982?  If so please comment on the rape that occurs there and the
subsequent reconciliation of the two characters.  *Why* does Josh Talley go
back to Signey Mallory, after being so angered by her actions that he tries
to kill her.  The reasons given seemed very contrived to me.

Do all the people who think Friday should have forgiven *her* rapist feel
the same about Josh?  Do all the people who think she should have hated him
to the death think he should have too?  Are there any significant
differences in the two cases?  Are any of your feelings colored by the
respective sexes of the rapist and victim?

I'll have to admit that the original description of the setup in DOWNBELOW
STATION (described from Mallory's viewpoint) was a bit of a turn-on, while
the later description of the same setup from his perspective was horrible.
I assumed the author was making the moral point that in real life a person
who is the object of someone's fantasy is the subject of his own life.  But
I got left wondering what the hell the author was saying when he went back
to her.  Comments?

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 02:28:56 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>jvh@clinet.FI (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen) writes:
>>g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>>>	The problem that would arise in Heinlein "polite" societies
>>>is that it leaves lots of scope for bullies to operate.
>
>>likely as not, people would SPONTANEOUSLY get together and teach the guys
>>a short lesson in dying.
>
>It is all very well to talk about the good citizens getting together and
>teaching the gang a lesson.  I don't think it works that way.

Also, even if public bullies are suppressed, there is the problem of secret
societies, a la the Cosa Nostra.  Heinlein "cheated" in dealing with this
issue (in _The_Moon_is_a_Harsh_Mistress): the mobsters who tried to take
over didn't constitute a secret society any more.  Everybody knew who they
were, and so they could all be dealt with.

But wouldn't you think twice about kicking somebody out the airlock if you
*knew* they friends you couldn't identify, sworn to avenge them?

Another point: the Lunar Authority is portrayed as completely uninterested
in good government, but otherwise incorruptible.  This doesn't seem very
likely to me.

In fact, mobsters with connections back to Earth have the wherewithall to
bribe them; so do those who produce illegal substances.  (Drugs like heroin
and cocaine count as "illegal" even in such a society; other things being
equal, their pushers are not going to be popular.  Of course, the pushers
will take steps to see to it that other things are not equal -- see secret
societies, above.  And yes, the drug users will have a below average
survival rate -- but not zero.)

Even if the object is just to keep order, an organized crime syndicate
makes a good ally and a terrible enemy.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 21:21:41 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

>> [O]ne small point: several of Heinlein's characters have made a
>> statement along the lines of "The best possible government is a
>> benevolent dictatorship".  [...] [T]he key word is "benevolent".  No,
>> you can't guarantee that a government will be benevolent.  But *if* it
>> is...
>I'm not entirely convinced of this.  What exactly does "benevolent" mean?
>"Means well towards"?  I have this feeling that some of the worst
>governments in history have been led by people who meant nothing but the
>best for the people....  I certainly have no confidence that the result
>would actually be nice to live under.

Benevolent: having a disposition to do good; kind; charitable. (Webster's
New 20th Century Unabridged).

So you have a good point; an intention to do good is not the same as
actually doing good. I had previously been interpreting the word as if it
meant the same thing as "beneficial". Sloppy of me.

But if I move away from nitpicking his wording, I think a good translation
of the original spirit of this point would be "a beneficial dictatorship".
Of course, doing so presupposes the point I'm trying to make, so maybe this
is a circular argument.

Still, we could fit various kinds of governments on a scale:

Worst: Malicious dictatorship.
Bad:   Self-serving government.
Good:  Benevelent dictatorship (assuming a certain amount of enlightenment; 
       if you instead assume it's unenlightened, it could be as bad as
       a malicious dictatorship.
Good:  Democracy with checks and balances.
Best:  Truly beneficial (in fact) dictatorship.

Why "dictatorship"? Because a single person might in fact (as a long shot)
have the right attitude to dictate truly beneficial policies. Weaker forms
of governmental control could not guarantee implementation of such a
vision.

Do I actually advocate such a thing? No, definitely not...there's no way to
ensure that the person in control *would* be beneficial, nor even to have a
benevolent attitude. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  I see this as
just a philosophical point that Heinlein had his character make to provoke
thought. It worked with me!

I happen to favor minimal government, but it's (endlessly) debatable as to
what that means.

It also seems clear to me that a true anarchy cannot exist; it is
inherently unstable. All it takes is one person to start using force to get
his way, and you've no longer got an anarchy. Either he starts his own
non-anarchic government, or else people gang up on him to stop him, and
cooperation of that sort is not a pure anarchy. Anarchy is therefore sort
of an oxymoron.  Anytime people cooperate to prevent undesirable force
imposed on them, you've got at least the vestiges of a government, no
matter how informal.

Consider Larry Niven's Anarchy Park. Or LeGuin's The Dispossessed; widely
considered to be about anarchy, but that's not what I would call it. More
like a highly informal, highly heterogenous mixture of different kinds of
government.

Certainly these points are arguable, go ahead and throw out contrary
opinions. I don't promise I'll have the motivation to continue supporting
my point of view, though. I don't feel very strongly about it.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 19:23:15 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

In regard to Heinlein's genetic definition of incest, keep in mind that
it's not just first generation culls that are a problem...animals in
general have incest-avoiding mechanisms for a second reason as well: in
order to have a broader, and therefore less vulnerable, gene pool.

There was a Sci. Am. article about how leopards become extinct out; they
have a very small gene pool. It was estimated that at some point the entire
population must have been down to 100 individuals; estimate based on the
lack of variety in the gene pool. This makes them very susceptable to
disease. Entire leopard preserves have been wiped out because of this.

It's reasonable to suppose that what used to be instincts have become
social traits in humans, to give us the same protection we used to get from
instinct.

So Heinlein's arguments about genetic incest seem to have some basis, at
least.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 88 06:13:41 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

I wrote:
>it's not just first generation culls that are a problem...animals in
>general have incest-avoiding mechanisms for a second reason as well:

David Macy-Beckwith writes:
>Could I get your references for "incest-avoiding mechanisms"?  From
>admittedly [ ...], dogs and cats will breed with Momma, Papa, Sis, Bro, or
>anyone else who comes "in heat" nearby.  Have observers noted different
>behavior in simians (which might explain Homo sap. "incest-avoidance")?

I'm feeling lazy about getting references on the subject, but if you prod
me I will. There is certainly discussion about it in The Selfish Gene, by
Charles Dawkins. An excellent book; a "must read" in general, due to the
light it sheds on so many otherwise puzzling aspects of the world.

Note I was talking about having "incest-avoiding mechanisms", I very
carefully did *not* say that animals avoid incest altogether. They don't.
Nor do humans. But in both there are behavioral patterns to avoid it.
Domesticated animals do not have the same opportunities for avoidance that
animals in the wild do, so experience with pets, and especially with penned
animals, will be misleading.

The avoidance mechanisms all have the effect of causing adolescents to
leave the family, to join another group or go solo, depending on the
species. There was an article in Psychology Today discussing research done
by some group comparing this sort of behavior in simians (and it varied per
species in its manifestation) with humans. One claim was that this is the
cause of the well known conflicts human children start having with their
parents when they reach puberty. No, this doesn't happen to all families,
but statistically is very common.

They also mentioned that a century ago it was very common for families to
send their children to live with relatives when they reached puberty, and
suggested that this cultural trait was a solution to the adolescent/ parent
aggression "problem". Or more accurately that the aggression is a
genetically based mechanism that has the net effect of minimizing incest.

Although some of this is debatable, it is old news in genetics that variety
in a gene pool makes the species more robust. Incest is counter- productive
to gene pool variation, since it reinforces some genes at the expense of
others. "Culls" often die due to *combinations* of genes, not just because
of some one "bad" gene that the species is better off without. Those "bad"
genes could be "good" genes elsewhere in the species.

So it makes sense that evolution would tend to produce mechanisms for
avoiding incest in general. There's no sense in postulating that it be
eliminated entirely because in some circumstances that's the only way for
individuals to reproduce. Not often; but in the wild, incest does not occur
often.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 1 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 185

Today's Topics:

		Miscellaneous - Literary Quality (4 msgs) &
                                Hugos (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 21:49:07 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (The Roach) writes:
>Believe it or not, Gene Wolfe's THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN (consisting of THE
>SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR, THE SHADOW OF THE
>LICTOR, and THE CASTLE OF THE AUTARCH) fit your description above
>("optimistic, non- technophobic, with a plot and a likeable, decent
>protagonist") and possibly the highest degree of "literary quality" in
>recent sf.

Optimistic?  I certainly wouldn't characterize this dark, brooding work as
optimistic.  It was about as optimistic as The Silmarillion!  That doesn't
detract from my opinion of this work as one of the all time best works of
science fiction, however.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 88 22:03:58 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>Can you name me a book that is optimistic, non-technophobic, with a plot
>and a likeable, decent protagonist, and yet still has this ill-defined
>thing called Literary Quality?  If so, I'd certainly be glad to give it a
>shot.

Ursula LeGuin has written a few books that fit these categories.  Try "Left
Hand of Darkness", one of her best (not as pessimistic as the title would
lead you to believe).  Ray Bradbury has also written some that fit,
although maybe a bit technophobic, although I don't think books should be
labeled technophobic unless they slavishly worship technology.  Orson Scott
Card has written some also.

I think in general your perception of the linkage between pessimism, and
protagonists that aren't always so decent is accurate.  Perhaps the dark
side is more complex and interesting to explore and write about than stuff
like "The Sound of Music".  Besides, who said everything you read has to be
so literary.  Shouldn't there be room to have a romp with "Star Wars" and
other fun things with little or no claim to being Great Literature?  But
even in the field of fantasy and science fiction, the greatest works seem
to be the darkest.  Take almost everyone's favorite, Tolkien, for example.
"Lord of the Rings" is not exactly a comedy, is it?

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 12:58:46 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re:  Hard SF and Literary Quality

eravin@dasys1.UUCP (Ed Ravin) writes:
>Somewhere in all the net buzz under this heading was a complaint that in
>order to be SF "literature" a story needed to be pessimistic or
>technophobic.
>...
>Ursula K. LeGuin: I think it's safe to say that nearly all of her SF
>novels have an optimistic bent.  _The_Dispossessed_ is certainly a serious
>attempt at describing a Utopian society which is only made possible by
>having a sufficient

"Lathe of Heaven" wasn't very optimistic was it?  "The Dispossessed" didn't
impress me as being all that optimistic, although I agree that most of her
fiction is rather.  LeGuin seems to be the exception of a good writer who
writes optimistically.  In general, I agree with those who feel that
tragedy makes for much better literature than "comedy".  This is true of sf
& fantasy as well as mainstream.  Take Tolkien and Gene Wolfe for examples.
It is hard to find more tragic works than theirs anywhere, yet most
acknowledge them as "greats".

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 05:55:11 GMT
From: ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com  (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> ... "hard SF doesn't need literary quality".
>I think this hits the nail on the head.  I don't read SF to watch some
>writer play with his vocabulary.  I read SF to see interesting ideas
>(Ideas I find interesting, anyway) put to work, and for that good ol'
>sense of wonder.  If it's well written, then so much the better ...

So what it comes down to is you read SF *purely* for escapist purposes.
Not a *bad* way to read, but not a *deep* way either.

I am not criticizing your reading purpose preferences. However, for anyone
who reads SF for anything more than escape, the stuff with absolutely no
literary quality is pretty offensive to the taste.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 01:23:32 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: The official Hugo nominations

I just got off the phone with the Nolacon people. Here's the definitive
list of Hugo Nominees for all categories. Any mispellings or other
mutilation of names is caused by my scribbling while talking on the phone.

One change from the tentative posting I made a while back. Boris did not
make the Best Artist category.

OtherRealms placed sixth on the best fanzine nomination with unusually
heavy voting in the category conpared to recent years. Thanks to everyone
who nominated me!

Novel:
   The Forge of God, Greg Bear (Tor)
   The Uplift War, David Brin (Phantasia/Bantam-Spectra)
   Seventh Son, Orson Scott Card (Tor)
   When Gravity Fails, George Alec Effinger (Bantam-Spectra)
   The Urth of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe (Tor)

Novella:
   Eye for Eye, Orson Scott Card (IASFM, March)
   The Forest of Time, Michael Flynn (Amazing, June)
   The Blind Geometer, Kim Stanley Robinson (IASFM, Aug)
   Mother Goddess of the World, Kim Stanley Robinson (IASFM, Oct)
   The Secret Sharer, Robert Silverberg (IASFM, Sep)

Novelette:
   Buffalo Fals Won't you Come Out Tonight, Ursula K. Le Guin (F&SF, Oct)
   Dream Baby, Bruce McAllister (In the Field of Fire, Tor; IASFM, Oct)
   Rachel in Love, Pat Murphy (IASFM, Apr)
   Flowers of Edo, Bruce Sterling (IASFM, May)
   Dinosaurs, Walter Jon Williams (IASFM, Jun)

Short Story:
   Angel, Pat Cadigan (IASFM, May)
   The Faithful Companion at Forth, Karen Joy Fowler, (IASFM, Jul)
   Cassandra's Photographs, Lisa Goldstein (IASFM, Aug)
   Night of teh Cooters, Howard Waldrop (Omni, Apr)
   Why I Left Harry's All-Night Hamburgers, Lawrence Watt-Evans (IASFM, Jul)
   Forever Yours, Anna, Kate Wilhelm (Omni, Jul)

Editors:
   Ed Ferman, F&SF
   Stan Schmidt, Analog
   Gardner Dozois, IASFM
   Dave Hartwell, Arbor House
   Brian Thompson, Warner/Questar

Pro Artist:
   Mike Whelan
   J.K. Potter
   David Cherry
   Bob Eagleton
   Tom Kidd
   Don Maitz

Other Forms:
   Watchmen (DC)
   I, Robot, Harlan Ellison (Screenplay, IASFM)
   Culture Made Stupid
   Wild Cards series
   The Essential Ellison
	
Non-Fiction:
   Anatomy of Wonder, 3rd Edition (Bowker)
   SF/Fantasy/Horror 1988, C. Brown, ed. (Locus Press)
   Imaginations: The work of David Cherry, Cherry (Starblaze)
   The Battle of Brazil, Matthews (Crown)
   Whelen Works of Wonder, Whelan (Del Rey)
	
Best Dramatic
   Predator
   Princess Bride
   Robocop
   Witches of Eastwick
   Star Trek 93: The Journey goes one

Fan Artist:
   Brad Foster
   Steve Fox
   Teddy Harvia
   Mike Insignia
   Taral Wayne
   Diana Gallager Woo

Best Semi-Prozine
   Aboriginal SF
   Interzone
   Locus
   Thrust
   SF Chronicle

Best Fanzine
   File 770
   Fosfax
   Lan's Lantern
   Mad 3 Party
   Texas SF Enquirer

Best Fan Writer
   Mike Glyer
   Arthur Hlavaty
   Dave Langford
   Guy H. Lillian III
   Leslie Turek

John W. Campbell Award
   C.S Friedman
   Loren MacGregor
   Judith Moffett*
   Rebecca Brown Ore*
   Martha Soukup*

   * last year of eligibility

There were 418 legitimate ballots. There were 122 ballots with best fanzine
nominations (29%, a high number). There were 182 ballots for Other Forms.

Honorable mentions: OtherRealms placed sixth in the balloting for Best
Fanzine. The Elric Costume placed sixth. The Shaft placed seventh.

Other nominations for Other Forms included: the 1987 tax forms; Reagan's
1987 budget and the Minnesota Twins.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 20:45:29 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

In an ideal world, Chuqui-me-bucko, you'd be absolutely right when you
write:

>[Hartwell hasn't really] done anything I consider exemplary in the
>qualifying year for this Hugo. The Hugo's supposed to be given out for
>work in a given time period, not for a longstanding reputation, and I
>think that Dave's nomination is based on his reputation, not on his
>current production.

But this ain't an ideal world.  The Hugo for things like "best artist"
and, yea verily, best editor *don't* go for this year's work.  "Best fan
writer" and "best fanzine" probably don't either.  They're based on a body
of work, and I don't think very many of the voting fen bother to go back
and sort out which Freas, Whelan, Sweet, whatever else artwork came out
*this* year as opposed to some other year -- especially with cover dates so
wonky on magazines, and publication data in books utterly untrustworthy.
(I've bought books in December with pub. dates of the following February;
which year's hugo were they elegible for?)

So all in all, unless the Committee comes up with a way to direct the
voters to an accurate representation of what the (artist, editor, fan
writer, etc.)  has done *this* year, there's no reasonable way to "enforce"
that limit.

Given all that...
>When you look at what Beth Meacham is doing at Tor, and what Betsy
>Mitchell is doing at Baen, and realize they aren't on the list, you have
>to wonder.

Yes, you certainly do.  Perhaps it's because Meacham and Mitchell don't
have the fan recognition-value of a Hartwell or a Dozois.  Book editors
are still generally unknown by the fannish public, and only one like a
Judy-Lynn delRey, a Terry Carr, or a Dave Hartwell are likely to *ever*
make the ballot.

Perhaps it's not fair putting book editors and magazine editors into the
same category, anyway.  It really isn't the same job.  Perhaps we should
split the category into "best sf magazine" and "best line of sf books" --
which would go to the publisher, since one publisher may have several
editors at work (see TOR for example).

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 88 16:57:00 GMT
From: justin@inmet.uucp
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

I have to disagree with Chuq on one point: "Cvltvre Made Stupid" simply
does *not* belong here. It's a very good book, but has *nothing* whatsoever
to do with SF. If this book fits in this category, then practically every
piece of light satire does.

Oh, well, at least Watchmen is almost guaranteed a Hugo, if only because
they have set straw men up against it. The only thing likely to give it any
competition is the Ellison script, and I think that Watchmen will win, just
on name recognition. A cheap award, but a Hugo nonetheless.

Justin du Coeur

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 20:29:08 GMT
From: jeff@ism780c.uucp (Jeff Copeland)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>> I have to disagree with Chuq on one point: "Cvltvre Made Stupid" simply
>> does *not* belong here.
>Yes, true. It really doesn't belong. Except, of course, that they've
>already given an award to it's brother, Science Made Stupid, which was
>just as tangental and just as inappropriate.
>...
>One final comment on Other Forms. One of the items that made the
>pre-finalists for the ballot, but not the final cut, was the Elric costume
>that won best of show at Conspiracy last year. Which I think is a further
>indictment of the category (no offense to the costume or the costumer, but
>costumes have their own awards, and shouldn't be part of the Hugos).

In 1986, I categorized "Science Made Stupid" as an art book and put it on
the ballot in the non-fiction category --- the same place art books have
traditionally appeared.  At the time, Tom Weller was surprised to find his
work nominated as *non*-fiction, and we lamented that there wasn't a
category more appropriate for works like "Science Made Stupid" and "The
Dark Knight" (which was appearing in print about the same time and received
a handful of nominations in scattered categories, even though it wouldn't
be eligible until the following year).

So now there is, at least for the moment, an "Other Forms" category, which
I think is a good idea.  Unfortunately, the category was defined informally
enough that when the definition was presented to a bunch of fans they
nominated everything from Ronald Reagan's tax forms to the Baltimore
Orioles mitts.  Fans, after all, are nothing if not notorious smart-asses
and rules lawyers.  None of which detracts from the need for a category for
graphic novels like "Watchmen" and "Ronin", fictional art books, scripts,
and mixed fact/fiction books like Ellison's "Medea" or Preiss' "The
Planets".

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 02:00:56 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

>By that logic, there should be no "Best Fanzine" Hugo -- the've got their
>own awards, too, right?

They do? Where? (i.e. There is no worldcon class award for fanzines I know
of. Other than the Hugo. There IS a worldcon class award for costumes. It's
called "Best of Show at Worldcon" -- which this particular costumer has
already won.

>What about "Dramatic Presentation?"  We've already got Oscars, Emmies, and
>so on to deal with that.  (Well, all right; I'm straining the analogy
>here.  This is genre-specific.  Like "Young Frankenstein" and "Sleeper."
>Right.  I'm really sure Woody and Mel gave a **** about winning a Hugo.
>Wonder if they even knew what one was...?)

True. But do you see me supporting this Hugo? I'd rather see it go to folks
that are producing material in the genre, personally. I happen to agree
with you on this one....

>Remember how offpissed you were about DARKKNIGHT as an ott book?

>So maybe WATCHMEN doesn't belong at all...?

Watchmen belongs, if it can compete and win based on our standards of
merit.  It can definitely compete, in my eyes. But if you go mucking with
the award structure so it can't compete fairly (also known as Other Forms)
or split up the structure so it is pigeonholed, any award it wins is
meaningless.

And no, if it can't compete on our terms, it doesn't belong. Most graphic
novels don't, as a matter of fact, because they succeed only as comic
books.  Watchmen and Dark Knigh, on the other hand, CAN compete as novels
because they're that good. For that reason, they do belong. But only for
that reason.

Hmm. This discussion sounds vaguely familiar....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 06:12:56 GMT
From: kjm@xyzzy.uucp (Kevin J. Maroney)
Subject: Re: Hugo nominations

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Now, what I meant to say (really, really I did!) was that he hasn't really
>done anything I consider exemplary in the qualifying year for this Hugo.
>The Hugo's supposed to be given out for work in a given time period, not
>for a longstanding reputation, and I think that Dave's nomination is based
>on his reputation, not on his current production.

It's worth pointing out here that Hartwell has done a number of very
worthwhile things this year (I believe he acts as a freelance editor at
Tor, where he worked on _Urth of the New Sun_, in addition to his work at
Arbor House/Morrow), but the item which probably brought him most to the
public eye this year was _A Dark Descending_, his excellent horror
anthology.  Using that as an excuse to give him a Hugo is no crime.

Some day very soon, Chuq, I'm going to write an article about the Other
Form (and why, in all seriousness, Arthur Hlavaty nominated "Elvis Is
Everywhere", by Mojo Nixon and Skid Rope). I hope it will help make
everyone a little happier about the Hugo /that _Watchmen_ deserves/ that no
one except Guy Lillian understands.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 1 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 186

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 16:09:26 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

Thank you, Jeff, for a well-thought-out article.  You've hit most
of the main issues.

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>1. He might be exploring in some passages or books and promoting in
>   others.

Clearly true; both FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD and STARSHIP TROOPERS were, by his
own admission, propagandistic works -- the latter propaganda in favor of
the so- called "military virtues," the latter propaganda *against* nuclear
war.

>2. It is reasonable to criticise a book even when the actual views
>   of the author are unknown.  Indeed, to insist to the contrary
>   would invalidate almost all (all?) criticism.

Not so.  Most authors make statements of their views at some point.

Indeed, Heinlein has made many such over the years, and they show (1) that
his views changed over time, and (2) what many of these views were.  I
shan't summarize, as Heinlein's statements of his views are both more
eloquent and more accurate than any by myself could possibly be, but I will
suggest that anyone who chooses to remark on his views without reading
these statemtents is acting, not only out of ignorance, but out of
*willful* ignorance.

>3. Individual books can be criticised even if others are different
>   in some of the respects cited.

Of course.  A book should be considered an entity unto itself.

However, "criticism" in this sense does not concern itself with the
politics of the author, but only with the craft and art of the book itself.

"Criticism" in the sense you are using it -- an attempt to ferret out an
author's beliefs, political or otherwise, must be made from a perspective
of the author's entire body of work.  Trying to judge an author from a
single work is like trying to judge a ruler from a single action...like
"making the trains run on time."

>4. It is reasonable to note that an author writes the books s/he
>   writes. In Heinlein's case we can note that he explores certain
>   ideas and not others, and that his characters often have certain 
>   characteristics in common.  Is that so hard to accept?

Of course not!  How can any kind of intelligent dialog about an author
progress otherwise.

In Heinlein's case, he wrote about the ideas he wrote about because he
liked to shake people up -- even to upset them.  Thus FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD,
which was intended as a book about the evils and aftermath of nuclear war,
became lost in a debate about Heinlein-as-racist -- largely because
Heinlein couldn't resist "shaking people up" with his
black-masters/white-slaves culture.

>5. It is reasonable to criticise someone merely for writing certain
>   kinds of books, such as propaganda for evil causes.  This is not
>   to suggest that Heinlein does write propaganda, but some of the
>   arguments in his defense seem to say that nothing in fiction can
>   ever count against the author.  That said, however, I think we
>   should concentrate on the fiction and avoid personal attacks.

Amen.

And for heaven's sake, of course he wrote propaganda.  See above.

For evil causes?  Certainly never for any cause which an intelligent human
being can look at as pure-black-and-white-evil.

Heinlein *mostly* wrote propaganda in favor of rationalism, and of thinking
for yourself, and (yes) for mysticism as long as it didn't interfere with
rational thought.  His juvenile novels, taken all together, and excepting
the very first (ROCKET SHIP GALILEO) and the very last (PODKAYNE OF MARS)
are a series of elegant and eloquent arguments in favor of rationalism and
thinking for yourself.

>For one thing, someone might want to quote the Delany remark about
>Starship Trooper (I think that was it).  He recalls being impressed that
>one character just happened to be black, just like one might happen to be
>blond or tall (not his comparison, but I don't have the right book handy
>and don't want to be too cryptic.)

I'm going to quote from memory, and I know perfectly well I'll get most of
the individual words wrong.  But the basic sense of this is right:

"-...so I was astonished when, two thirds of the way through this long
book, the narrator lets us know, just by glancing into the mirror, that
he's black.  I was struck with the astonishing feeling: this is what it
would be like to live in a society where it *truly*did*not*matter* what
color a person's skin was...-"

(Note, it wasn't just "one character," but the first person narrator.  By
doing things this way, Heinlein dropped an emotional timebomb on the reader
- -- if the reader was paying attention, which many readers *aren't* by that
point in a book.  Not to descriptive details, anyway.

(It also might be worth noting that the main character of THE CAT WHO WALKS
THROUGH WALLS is also black, and Heinlein again mentions it in passing deep
into the book.  This repitition of devices years later seems to me a strong
indication that Heinlein had not become a white supremacist during the
interval between TROOPERS and FREEHOLD.)

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 15:56:23 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Last Book

Does anyone know if there's any truth to the rumor that Heinlein has (n)
manuscripts in storage, and has been releasing the oldest to the publisher
as he wrote each new one?  I've heard figures as high as n=6.  (Oh, if only
it's true!)

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 19:44:53 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Last Book

>Does anyone know if there's any truth to the rumor that Heinlein has (n)
>manuscripts in storage, and has been releasing the oldest to the publisher
>as he wrote each new one?  I've heard figures as high as n=6.  (Oh, if
>only it's true!)

This isn't true. If he has anything in storage, it's slushpile material.

Two things that ARE true that might contribute to the rumor:

A lot of his older works are being put back into print by Baen books.
These are things that were published before, but haven't been available for
a while.

He was working on a new novel when he died. The status of it is currently
unknown.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 03:09:08 GMT
From: franka@mmintl.uucp (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #169

V066EDD9@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (Dan Harkavy) writes:
>If you look at the more recent books, it is clear that RAH is in favor of
>anything but a dictatorship.  His most prominent character, Lazarus Long,
>makes it very clear in Time_Enough_For_Love that any time that a society
>gets too regulated and too orderly, it is time to find another society.

This is true enough.  What you missing, I believe, is that Heinlein doesn't
think that being too regulated and too orderly has anything to do with the
*form* of the government.  _Glory_Road, for example, presents a very
unregulated and disorderly dictatorship, with apparent approval.
_Methuselah's_Children, on the other hand, opens with a democratic
government, which has gotten out of hand.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 23:20:17 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Robert A. Heinlein..

I do not argue that Heinlein's politics were anything.  We *know* for a
fact that he believed in individual freedoms (read EXPANDING UNIVERSE); we
do *not* know whether he truly believed in a fascist or a communist or an
anarchist or a royalist or a ______-ist society.

I argue that Heinlein showed us various views.  Running through all of them
was the idea of personal freedoms; however, the "Heinlein-was-a-fascist"
viewpoint conveniently ignores "The Long Watch".  Those who believe that
the "Free Luna" created in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS was Heinlein's idea
of a utopia conveniently ignore the future of that Free Luna as shown in
THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS.  While the "Little Poeple" were an
apotheosis of socialism, they weren't depicted as being evil -- and even
Lazarus was willing to admit as much.  And there are other examples.

There are a few people who argue that Heinlein was *against* the socio-
political structures he created in his various stories.  I submit that
there is as little evidence for that viewpoint as there is for the opposite
viewpoint.  There is insufficient evidence to decide *anything* about
Heinlein's beliefs aside from what he has stated explicitly.  And unless
Ginny decides for some reason to speak for him (I consider it unlikely), we
won't ever *have* enough evidence.

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 18:02:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

j.a.tainter (tainter@ihlpg.ATT.COM) writes:
> I find this "AP women not like ordinary women" just as absurd as Jeff
> Dalton and somewhat revolting.  Heinlein went to a lot of trouble to show
> how asinine treating the AP as subhuman was and it seems to have gone
> clear over Friedman's head.
>
> What absolves Heinlein is his treatment of rape as simply a form of
> physical violence.  Note Friday's puzzlement at anyone using rape as a
> form of torture.  I took this as a recognition of the limited value as
> torture and the vulnerability of the aggresser during the act.  The
> combination makes rape a very poor tool.
>
> To an individual with a healthy emotional makeup rape is in no way
> different than any other form of physical abuse.  Friday was socialized
> to such a healthy attitude.

I kind of resent the statement that "it seems to have gone clear over
Friedman's head."  But to substance:

Seems to me, J. A., that you've proved MY point.  I never claimed APs were
subhuman.  I agree with you that Heinlein went to a lot of trouble to show
that APs are just as human as anyone else.  What I said was:

>> And rape, to her as an AP, was not the trauma it would be to an ordinary
>> woman.  Her reactions have NOTHING to do with the feelings of ordinary
>> women.  After all, very little else she does in the whole novel has
>> anything to do with what ordinary women do or feel.

Maybe I didn't say it well.  I was trying to say that Friday's training
(not her genes) made her less vulnerable to the trauma of rape.  Seems to
me that you're saying the same thing in the quotation above.  The only
point of her AP heritage is that, being an AP, she was brought up with more
healthy attitudes about sex than most humans.  This gave her the ability to
separate sex and violence in her mind.  I don't think we can conclude that
typical "ordinary" women (by which I mean non-APs) in her society would
have that same ability.

H. George Friedman, Jr.
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1304 West Springfield Avenue
Urbana, Illinois  61801
USENET:       ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman
CSNET, ARPA:  friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 20:32:15 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>>Nonsense.  Friday considered killing him.  The big thing that stopped her
>>was that he was a fellow AP (artificial person).  Also, she says, not in
>>these words, that he showed compassion, even while carrying out orders to
>>rape her.  And rape, to her as an AP, was not the trauma it would be to
>>an ordinary woman.  Her reactions have NOTHING to do with the feelings of
>>ordinary women.  After all, very little else she does in the whole novel
>>has anything to do with what ordinary women do or feel.
  
Give yourself a break. Give Heinlein's works a break. Read them a few more
times.  Eventually you'll see the light. This is also the reason why I
usually don't flame those types who praise Heinlein unfoundedly, or for
views which are in fact in no obvious way, preferential in his philosophy.
They too will continue to reread those works and others, and understanding
will be expanded.  It does continually expand for me. And these discussions
expand it for their part. Thank you for that.
 
>Give me a break.
>
>Heinlein invented this kind of female entity and made one the hero of his
>novel.  Heinlein invented a kind of woman who does not mind being
  
Where do you get that "kind of woman" sexist shit? Heinlein expressly
mentioned that rape was worse for*men* who had to undergo the same
situation, even so those "kind of men" were ALSO doctrinated to *ACTIVELY*
use techniques to *ALLEVIATE* the shock. Nowhere is it said, that she does
not "mind it". Okay, all the other posters use the same sexist concept
(even the one protesting sexism!), but that just shows how easy it is for
us mortals to slip, and how expressly Heinlein avoids this pitfall.
  
>raped all that much.  If I didn't think Heinlein was basically a decent
>person, I would suspect he was indulging in a somewhat questionable
>fastasy.
  
No. You are way off the mark even in hinting at the possibility. There is a
juvenile of his, in which a young boy has to undergo a basically similar
treatment (the medium has limited the graphicness of the description even
beyond the expressly untitillative one in Friday, naturally). In both there
are severe kickers which make the reader question one's bearings and the
way one may have become dulled to such imagery. The superficially cold way
in which Friday deals with her ordeal only makes the situation of her
AP-hood light- years more poignant. That is the main kicker, literarywise.

As a last advice, try to reread Friday by substituting lefthanded person
every time you think "woman" or even just "female person", and woman-man
every time the AP-human conflict is upstaged. Maybe you'll get more out of
it that way.

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 17:32:59 GMT
From: ewa@silvlis.com (Ernest Adams)
Subject: Heinlein and sexism

Paul Sand seems to want to get into the metaethics of feminism:
> "Understanding between the sexes" is one of those idiotic phrases that
> means less and less the more you think about it.  Only *a person* can
> understand. And generally, a person will understand some other
> individuals, partially understand some others, and still others (perhaps
> most) will be a total mystery. Sex has little to do with it. (Except
> insofar as it is a motive to *want* to understand someone else.)
>...
> It is (was, sigh) not Heinlein's purpose in writing to "help" in any
> "struggle". You want that stuff, read the Nation, or National Review.
> (Depending.)

This isn't terribly appropriate for an SF newsgroup.  The original debate
was: Was Robert Heinlein a sexist?  Are the sexist attitudes displayed in
his writing a reflection of

    1) his own opinions;
    2) if so, as a result of a lack of understanding of women; and/or
    3) if so, as a result of a deliberate insensitivity towards their
       feelings? 

And, most importantly, how does it affect the quality of his works?

My comment, appropriate for an SF newsgroup, is: Yes to all of the above,
and ultimately it flaws his writing.  Now, admittedly, Heinlein is hardly
the worst of SF writers.  I suppose it is better to have two-dimensional
characters who have non-credible qualities (like Friday) than it is to have
one-dimensional characters (like Jommy Cross in Van Vogt's *Slan*, for
example).

We might as well face it: Lazarus Long *is* Robert Heinlein, for practical
purposes.  He's a mouthpiece for Heinlein's Nietzschean theories.  Into
this character's mouth he places such words (quotes are approximate) as:

"Every time women have gotten 'equality', they have wound up holding the
dirty end of the stick.  What women are and what they can do [i.e. bear
children] is ?much too important for that?. ?What women should do is ask
for? special privileges, all the traffic will bear."

"?If the universe has any more purpose? than topping a woman and making a
baby with her hearty help ?I don't know what it is?."

"<Some mumbling about miracles.> I prefer the real McCoy--a pregnant
woman."

The man was fixated on women's reproductive capacity.  He was willing to
grant them anything else: brains, courage, strength, whatever, but in the
last analysis, Robert Heinlein saw women as producers of babies, not as
full partners in human society.  This view expressed itself in his writing
and damaged the quality of his female characters.

Who's a great writer?  D.H. Lawrence.  Truman Capote.  Robert Pirsig.
Ursula LeGuin.  William Gibson.  [None of whom, incidentally, wrote New-
Yorker-going-to-Connecticut-to-see-my-ex-husband stories.])

Heinlein was entertaining, enjoyable, even insightful.  He was *not* a
great writer.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 1 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 187

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Zelazny (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 15:55:40 GMT
From: psm@mdbs.uucp (Steve Murphy)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

russell@eneevax.umd.edu.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes:
>** WARNING!  THIS POSTING CONTAINS SPOILER INFORMATION FOR ANYONE **
>** WHO HAS NOT YET FINISHED READING "SIGN OF CHAOS"               **
>While we're on the subject of Amber, does anybody care to speculate as to
>what is going to happen next?  A couple of questions that I'd like to know
>the answers to are:
>
>How is it that Julia is alive?  And how did she acquire the powers that
>she is wielding as Mask?  Or is it NOT Julia, but someone who
>shape-changed to look like Julia to screw with Merlin's mind?  What is the
>significance of the flower

Julia may have pulled the old "Eric fake death trick", you know went to a
neighboring shadow found a look-alike and killed her. It's a good bet that
Jurt had been secretly spying on Merlin while he was on Earth, it is there
that he, Jurt, fell in love with Julia and introduced her to shadow and
higher magic.  It may also be that Jurt had a hand in some of the April
attempts on Merlins life.

>Who sent the whatchamacallit that's been hitching a free ride in all of
>these people's bodies trying to protect Merlin?  Why is it that Mandor
>won't tell Merlin?

I haven't figured this one out yet, it could be Merlin's mother.  The
whatchamacallit was extremely interested in validating with Merlin as to
who his mother was.  Beats me why Mandor won't tell Merlin.

>Where has Corwin been all this time?  What is the significance of Corwin's
>stuff being laid out in his bedroom?  Is he involved in what is happening
>to Merlin?

In "Blood of Amber" there is a restaurant scene in which Bill Roth is
dressed in Corwins cloths. Later in "Signs", when Merlin is questioning
Bill about Corwin, Bill is mysteriously vague about where he thinks Corwin
might be, Merlin himself believes that Bill is hiding something.  I think
Corwin is Bill.  What other identity Corwin assume and pull off the
inpersonation so well, what other identity Corwin assume and keep tabs on
both Amber and Merlin without be suspected.

>Is Coral who she says she is?  Where is she?  Why did Merlin lose Trump
>contact with her so suddenly?
>
>Well that's a start.  If these questions wear out, I've got lots more,
>like "Who will be the new Amber family member introduced in the next book?
>Will we discover that Bill roth is actually Oberon's long lost twin
>brother, Rothic?"  We shall see...

As to who will be the new Amber family member introduced, I don't know. But
I it is interesting that both Coral and Dalt are from Begma.  We are told
that Dalt's mother was burning Unicorn shrines, why?  and why did Oberon
himself go to deal with her at first?  There is more to that story than
we've be told.

Also where is Dworkin, (spelling?) Oberon's father and author of the
Pattern?  I would find it hard to believe that he doesn't have a hand in
these matters. I have my own ideas about his whereabouts, but I'd like hear
some others first.

The thing I really interested in is the Pattern, is it really sentient?
And exactly what are the full extent of the powers of the Pattern. I
suspect that a person fully schooled in the Pattern would have
corresponding abilities as thosed schooled in the Logrus.  And why wheren't
Oberon's childern properly schooled in it's use?  And exacting when was the
Pattern created and why?  And who is the Unicorn (besides Oberon's),
obviously a creature of chaos, what is her part in these matters?

Steve Murphy
1101 Kensington Dr.
Lafayette, In.  47905
...!{inuxc,ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!mdbs!psm

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 01:46:08 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

leab_c47@ur-tut (Leonard Abbot) writes:

>LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
>>Another interesting point is whether Merlin can walk Corwin's pattern
>>since he was born before it existed, whereas Oberon, etc, all were born
>>after Dworkin drew the first Pattern.
>But did Dworkin _draw_ the primal Pattern?  All I remember reading is that
>he drew the one in Amber itself.  As far as I know, the Unicorn came to
>Dworkin in the primal Pattern's world and gave him the Jewel.  If anyone
>has a reference to Dworkin drawing it, cite me chapter, please.

Unnecessary, for two reasons:

(1) It was stated that Dworkin drew *the* pattern; but at the time, there
was no evidence given to either Corwin or to us that the Pattern in Amber
was not the Primal Pattern.  Thus, neither Corwin nor we would realize that
what Dworkin drew was the Primal Pattern: we would have concluded that it
was the Pattern in Amber.

(2) The Pattern in Amber is a Shadow of the Primal Pattern.  So is the
Pattern in Rebma, and (presuming that there is one) the one in Tirna
Nog'th.  I doubt that they were drawn separately; they were, therefore,
created along with the Shadow(s) in which they reside.

A somewhat convoluted proof of point 2: In (I believe) THE HAND OF OBERON
(I may remember wrong, don't flame me) Corwin is told (by either Dworkin or
Oberon, I forget) that if Dworkin were to redraw the Pattern, it would turn
out different because he had changed since drawing the Primal Pattern.
However, recall from NINE PRINCES IN AMBER that the Pattern in Rebma is an
*exact* mirror image of the Pattern in Amber... thus, it can't have been
drawn after the Primal Pattern, so it must be a Shadow of the Primal
Pattern created at the same time as the rest of Rebma.  

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 00:23:14 GMT
From: rjg@ruby.tek.com (Richard J. Greco)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

davidg@killer.UUCP (David Guntner) writes:
>I think that it's fairly safe to assume that Corwin's curse helped to
>bring about Martin's stabbing.  He certianly seemed to think so....

I would have to disagree.  Corwin's curse happens after Brand is locked up
in the tower.  Corwin's curse helped soften the resistance to Chaos beings
trying to move through shadow, but non-linear time is needed at the true
pattern for his curse to have caused Martin's stabbing.

Corwin may blame himself, (a human quality) but unjustly so.

Richard J. Greco
Tektronix Incorporated              
P.O. Box 1000 / Mail Stop 63-523    
Wilsonville, Or 97070  
(503) 685-3866
UUCP: {uw-beaver|decvax}!tektronix!ruby!rjg
ARPA: rjg%tektronix.TEK.COM@RELAY.CS.NET
CSnet: rjg@ruby.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 20:22:49 GMT
From: rbw@williams.edu
Subject: Other powers for descendants of Dworkin

psm@mdbs.uucp (Steve Murphy) writes:
>And speaking of the Pattern, shouldn't an initiate of the Pattern be
>endowed with some special abilities beyond shadow walking, similar to
>those initiated to the Logrus?  If so what are they?

They do, at least according to Oberon, who tells Corwin that other powers
(like reverse - Trumping, shape changing) probably exists, or *maybe* died
with Corwin's generation.  This was right after Corwin tries to stop Oberon
from walking the pattern in _Courts of Chaos_.

Richard Ward
rbw@cs.williams.edu
Williams College
Williamstown, MA

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 20:34:46 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

Wasn't it mentioned in The Courts Of Chaos that only 3 generations [from
Dworkin] can walk the pattern?  This implies that Merlin, Martin, Rinaldo,
Dara, and [who else?] are the last Amberites that can actually walk the
pattern.  Now there's a good reason for Corwin's pattern.  It will allow
for Merlin's offspring, should he ever replicate, to continue in the
"family tradition" of shadow walking.  Maybe this reasoning can be applied
to Dworkin?  Perhaps he knew that his offspring would not be able to walk
shadow unless he inscribed a pattern himself, hence Amber.

I think in the next book, Corwin and his pattern will have to come into the
plot.

rj pietkivitch

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 19:17:16 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

Brandon S. Allbery writes:
>However, recall from NINE PRINCES IN AMBER that the Pattern in Rebma is an
>*exact* mirror image of the Pattern in Amber... thus, it can't have been
>drawn after the Primal Pattern, so it must be a Shadow of the Primal
>Pattern created at the same time as the rest of Rebma.

Clever!

Now the question is: does Zelazny remember everything he wrote, and what
that logically implies, as well as his readers do? :-)

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 20:48:59 GMT
From: andy@cbmvax.uucp (Andy Finkel)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

psm@mdbs.UUCP (Steve Murphy) writes:
>>Who sent the whatchamacallit that's been hitching a free ride in all of
>>these people's bodies trying to protect Merlin?  Why is it that Mandor
>>won't tell Merlin?
>I haven't figured this one out yet, it could be Merlin's mother.  The
>whatchamacallit was extremely interested in validating with Merlin as to
>who his mother was.  Beats me why Mandor won't tell Merlin.

I think its the physical body of his magical strangling cord.  If Mandor
told Merlin what she was, Merlin (in his fashion we all know and love)
would take the thing off, and leave it in a chest somewhere.

Remember the way she examines things ?

andy finkel
Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
{ihnp4|seismo|allegra}!cbmvax!andy 

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 14:40:58 GMT
From: psm@mdbs.mdbs (Steve Murphy)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

psm at mdbs.uucp (Steve Murphy) writes:
>You are missing one point here.  Dworkin points out that drawing a Pattern
>inscribes in your blood/genes.  Thus, Merlin, born before Corwin drew the
>Pattern would not necessarily be able to walk it.

Didn't Dworkin also say that he and the Pattern were one?  What Dworkin
said doesn't necessarily mean that the Pattern will only recognize
descendents born after the inscription of the Pattern.  In "Signs of Chaos"
we are led to believe that the Pattern may be sentient, if it is then it
would be possible for the Pattern to remember the original genetic pattern
of the author and then be able to recognize his/her descendents.

You have to remember Dworking explicitly say that he and Oberon fought
Chaos after he had inscribed the Pattern, leads me to believe that Oberon
was born before the Pattern was inscribed.

>Sure, but most such abilities come with training and practice, which most
>of the Princes of Amber were too lazy to bother with.

Were they to lazy or was Oberon and Dworkin purposely slack in their
tutoring?  Dworkin tells Oberon aka Corwin, that he had hoped that
traversing the Pattern would be enough to steel them to the responsiblities
of power, in the end it appeared that it wasn't sufficient.

There is no doubt in my mind that Dworkin and Oberon used the crisis
brought on by Brand to mature Oberon's childern into accepting the mantle
of power that is their birth-right.  I don't really believe that Oberon is
dead just for that reason, and because his funeral was to elaborate. It was
just the kind of thing he would have wanted to watch and probably
participate in.

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 88 22:03:26 GMT
From: stymie@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael (Stymie) W.)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>>Wasn't it mentioned in The Courts Of Chaos that only 3 generations [from
>>Dworkin] can walk the pattern?  This implies that Merlin, Martin,
>>Rinaldo, Dara, and [who else?] are the last Amberites that can actually
>>walk the pattern.  Now there's a good reason for Corwin's pattern.  It
>>will allow for Merlin's offspring, should he ever replicate,
>
>Well, except that Dara is from the Courts, this sounds like a good reason.
>Did Rinaldo ever walk the pattern? From the abilities he has, it seems
>like he must have both Pattern and Logrus powers, like Merlin, but it
>would have been pretty hard for him to walk the Pattern and still be kept
>a secret, as he apparently was.

Yes, Dara is from the courts, but she is also the great-granddaughter of
Benedict, so it would seem that further generations can also walk the
pattern.  Rinaldo has walked the pattern, as he told Merlin in their
conversation at the Bayle manor house.  Rinaldo walked the pattern in
Tir-na Nog'th where he was taken by his Brand (Blood of Amber).  It would
be interesting to see how Merlin's children will fair in walking the
pattern, since they are of Dworkin's blood through both Corwin(Merlin) and
Benedict.

The speculation about the ty'iga demon being the embodiment of Merlin's
strangling chord is very interesting.  Although it doesn't quite explain
why no one will tell Merlin that that is what it is.  Another possibility
for the sender of the demon, and my favorite choice, is Despil, Merlin and
Jurt's younger brother from the courts.

Mike Wertheimer
stymie@cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 18:17:57 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>Wasn't it mentioned in The Courts Of Chaos that only 3 generations [from
>Dworkin] can walk the pattern?  This implies that Merlin, Martin, Rinaldo,
>Dara, and [who else?] are the last Amberites that can actually walk the
>pattern.  Now there's a good reason for Corwin's pattern.  It will allow
>for Merlin's offspring, should he ever replicate,

Well, except that Dara is from the Courts, this sounds like a good reason.
Did Rinaldo ever walk the pattern? From the abilities he has, it seems like
he must have both Pattern and Logrus powers, like Merlin, but it would have
been pretty hard for him to walk the Pattern and still be kept a secret, as
he apparently was.

Would each drawing of a new Pattern in a new reality generate individual
sub-realities, causing branching of an n-ary tree of realities? Is each
successive generation of the Pattern somewhat weaker/less real? What about
the Logrus? Does that have to be re-created? Have we ever been told how it
was created?

I find the Logrus much more intriguing than the Pattern, mainly because so
little has been said about it. Now, if Zelazny really wanted to make me
happy :-), he'd start a whole new series giving the events of the original
books from the viewpoint of a Chaotic!

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 22:52:10 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (tom uffner)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>>Wasn't it mentioned in The Courts Of Chaos that only 3 generations [from
>>Dworkin] can walk the pattern?  This implies that Merlin, Martin,
>>Rinaldo, Dara, and [who else?] are the last Amberites that can actually
>>walk the pattern.  Now there's a good reason for Corwin's pattern.  It
>>will allow for Merlin's offspring, should he ever replicate...

Actually I believe it was 8 generations, this would account for Dara but
Jurt and Despil could not walk it. Also, it is not clear that this is a
definite limit; I got the impression that that was a theory Dworkin and
Oberon came up with. Remember that was the first time anything like that
was ever done.

>Well, except that Dara is from the Courts, this sounds like a good reason.
>Did Rinaldo ever walk the pattern? From the abilities he has, it seems
>like he must have both Pattern and Logrus powers, like Merlin, but it
>would have been pretty hard for him to walk the Pattern and still be kept
>a secret, as he apparently was.

Rinaldo took the pattern at Tir'na N'goth with Brand's help. he has never
taken the Lorgrus.

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 23:12:47 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (tom uffner)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

>Now the question is: does Zelazny remember everything he wrote, and what
>that logically implies, as well as his readers do? :-)

He does a pretty good job, there are inconsistencies but they can be
treated as differences in the various characters perceptions of things,
lies, misconceptions that Merlin and Corwin may have had at the time.
Besides, the loose ends give us something to talk about.

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 1 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Dick (6 msgs) &
                                  The John W. Campbell Letters &
                                  Non-Quest Fantasy

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 May 88 23:11:10 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: help on Philip K. Dick

hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>Also, if you're a Philip K.  Dick enthusiast, can you recommend for me any
>studies on Dick's works? Are there any books about Dick or collections of
>essays on his works?

There are a few, the best of which is 'Only Apparently Real--The World of
Philip K. Dick' by Paul Williams.  This book is mostly transcribed
interviews with PKD, and very illuminating.  The Bibliography in there is
decent, as well.  This book was a runner-up to 'The Trillion-Year Spree'
for Best Non-Fiction in the Hugos last year.

TK Graphics put out an interesting essay by Angus Taylor entitled 'Philip
K.  Dick and the Umbrella of Light', though I do not know if it's still
available

Starmont Reader's Guide #12 is devoted to Dick, and has some good essays by
Dr. Hazel Pierce.

>It seems like Dick really likes stories about Policemen who always get
>dicked over (no pun)... from reading this and _Flow My Tears_.

This may have to do with his having his house broken into (allegedly by the
police or the FBI) and having supposedly subversive documents stolen.  At
any rate, Dick was never fond of Authority.

As for Mercerism, I'll leave that for someone else...

Jim Freund 
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 10:00:36 GMT
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re:  Hard SF and Literary Quality

I picked some comments out of a longer posting here, partly for the Dickian
interest and partly because I think they do a good job of representing the
whole...

Mike van Pelt read Phil Dick's novel UBIK and 'despised' it:
>After wading through the whole book, the plot dissolving into total
>weirdness and non sequiters as you go, on the last page Dick tells you
>"It's all a dream".  Actually, in this case, the hallucinations of the
>narrator as he lies dying on the floor of an airlock on the moon.
>BLEEEEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
>
>Please ignore the inflamatory tone of some of this.  I tend to get a bit
>carried away when I think about some of this stuff.

I'll try to ignore the tone, but Mike, you've completely missed the boat on
UBIK and I suspect that your trouble with this novel may carry over to
others.  I'll admit my biases up front: UBIK is one of my all-time favorite
novels, and I think it has high literary quality.  I'll try to explain why
I like it, and why I think some books require a different kind of reader
than others.

The world of UBIK is considerably stranger than our own.  The dead are made
accessible to the living through a process called cold-pac which
electronically maintains souls in dead bodies and permits them to
communicate with the outside.  Businesses compete for people with
paranormal talents, recruiting them to perform industrial espionage upon
their competitors; to counter this, security services offer 'inertials' who
can neutralize particular talents.  Life has become amazingly cheap and
tacky, with obnoxious, bureaucratic robots in charge of every least thing,
down to the coin-operated door to your apartment (nope, talking doors
weren't invented by Douglas Adams).

Joe Chip works for an anti-psi security organization named Runciter
Associates.  His life is on the skids, and he usually blows his paycheck on
drugs that keep him from thinking about how dull his existence is.  His job
is to monitor psi fields electronically, to determine whether an anti-psi
representative from Runciter Associates needs to be called in.  A business
crisis arises -- the top psis in the world are disappearing: where are
they?  Glen Runciter, the owner and chief executive officer of the company,
is approached by a client who says that their company is being attacked by
the vanished psis; Runciter has to send his best people to the site (on the
moon) to counter them.  Joe Chip comes along as the necessary technician.
Once on the moon, though, the job turns out to be a trap -- a bomb explodes
and kills Runciter.  In a panic, the team escapes to their ship, putting
Runciter in cold-pac, and blasts off to Earth.

But things aren't quite right...  Earth isn't the same.  First it's just
the little things, but it gets worse, much worse.  It becomes apparent that
there is another interpretation of the bomb blast: Runciter is alive, but
the rest of the team is dead(!), preserved in cold-pac.  At the same time,
an evil force is tracking the team down, eliminating them one by one in
horrible ways.  Joe has to confront his own weakness in order to fight the
evil, and in the midst of his weakness he somehow manages to find strength.
The last two pages of the novel are a devilish trick that turns the novel
on its head -- and yet it stays the same...

Dick doesn't have any realistic technological ideas to offer in this novel.
His future world is a satire -- the pedantic robot doors, the dog-eat-dog
business world, psychics for hire, all are ridiculous.  No one, not even
Dick, would take it seriously as a prediction.  So what is the point?

Part of the point is to make you question your ideas about reality.  By the
end of the book, we see that the two possible realities, Chip's and
Runciter's, complement each other in a curious way.  If you read the book
carefully, you realize that the strange 'decay' weirdness begins to happen
before the bomb attack.  The 'evil force' exists in both realities,
personified by two different characters (although this is deliberately
blurred).  The ambiguity is so exquisite that it is impossible to say that
one reality is more 'real' than the other in the context of the novel; each
has its own validity.  I like to think that I see the same yin-yang
symbolism in this novel that appears in another favorite Dick novel, THE
MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE.  In any case the 'little worlds' theme is a
constant in Dick's novels, and it's clear that Dick believes that this
applies at a higher level than just fiction, perhaps even at a higher level
than the obvious one, of human relationships.

But the little ads for 'Ubik' brand products that head each chapter show
that Dick has something up his sleeve beyond just reality warping.  To make
a flat statement: I would argue that this novel is a theological
speculation on the nature of grace.  Joe Chip is a loser; he fucks up every
opportunity that comes his way, and he shows weakness in the face of
adversity.  But when his life is on the line and he really needs courage,
it is there.  Even Joe is puzzled about where it comes from, and Dick has
tricked us by symbolizing its nature in an aerosol spray can (of all
things!).

>Has perspiration odor taken you out of the swim?  Ten-day Ubik deodorant
>spray or Ubik roll-on ends worry of offending, brings you back where the
>happening is.  Safe when used as directed in a conscientious program of
>body hygiene.

Literary quality means different things to different people.  I've met
people whose aesthetic senses were limited by their ability to ground a
story in the 'real world'.  The most extreme of these read only nonfiction
and can't understand how anyone else gets any enjoyment from fiction.
Others enjoy escapism -- some escape into the distant reaches of fantasy
and the absurd, some tether themselves to some notion of concrete
possibility.  Each of these 'little worlds' of the readers has its own
customs and values.  My own 'little world' puts a premium on psychological
and philosophical escapism -- if a wacko story illustrates a nice
philosophical paradox, I'll enjoy it much more than a story that turns on
some fine point of plasma physics.  Another literary quality I look for is
the density of meaning -- if I read the story again, does it always mean
just the same thing?  Or does it have a deep core that repays repeated
investigation?

I won't argue (and if I believe Dick, I can't argue) that my aesthetic
sense of literary quality is superior to anyone else's.  I can and do argue
that if you don't keep an open mind about literary quality, you will surely
miss stories that you might otherwise enjoy greatly.

'Look on reverse side of container for address and phone number,'

Donn Seeley
University of Utah CS Dept
(801) 581-5668
donn@cs.utah.edu
utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 88 22:05:32 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: List of PKD books

Here follows a list of of Philip K. Dick's novels, in the order they were
written, based on Paul Williams' research in ONLY APPARENTLY REAL.  I agree
that this is a good book to read if you're interested in PKD.  Also, a new
critical book is available from G.K.  Hall Publishers for $19.95.  It's by
one author, and has write-ups on all of the books.  It's no big deal for
the fanatic, and a little bit advanced for the novice, but would be a great
source book for someone who has read a handful of Dick books over the years
without getting too involved.  This book has the advantage, like the
Williams book, of still being available.  The best critical book is Kim
Stanley Robinson's THE NOVELS OF PHILIP K. DICK, but good luck finding a
copy.

THE COLLECTED STORIES is still available from Underwood/Miller.  Off of the
top of my head, the complete list of other collections is Handful of
Darkness (early British), The Variable Man (early Ace - I believe that The
Turning Machine is this book retitled), The Preserving Machine, The Book of
Philip K. Dick, The Best of Philip K. Dick, The Golden Man, Mechanical
Oddities..., and I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon.  None of these are that easy
to find, except for the last one, which should still be available.

I've got plenty of PKD information, if anyone cares.

 1. VOICES FROM THE STREET (unpublished)
 2. THE COSMIC PUPPETS (1957)
 3. GATHER YOUSELVES TOGETHER (unpublished)
 4. SOLAR LOTTERY (1955)
 5. THE WORLD JONES MADE (1956)
 6. EYE IN THE SKY (1957)
 7. MARY AND THE GIANT (1987)
 8. THE MAN WHO JAPED (1956)
 9. THE BROKEN BUBBLE (1988)
10. PUTTERING ABOUT IN A SMALL LAND (1985)
11. TIME OUT OF JOINT (1959)
12. IN MILTON LUMKY TERRITORY (1985)
13. DR. FUTURITY (1960)
14. CONFESSIONS OF A CRAP ARTIST (1975)
15. VULCAN'S HAMMER (1960)
16. THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE (1984)
17. HUMPTY DUMPTY IN OAKLAND (1986)
18. THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE (1962)
19. WE CAN BUILD YOU (1972)
20. MARTIAN TIME-SLIP (1964)
21. DR. BLOODMONEY, OR HOW WE GOT ALONG AFTER THE BOMB (1965)
22. THE GAME-PLAYERS OF TITAN (1963)
23. THE SIMULACRA (1964)
24. NOW WAIT FOR LAST YEAR (1966)
25. CLANS OF THE ALPHANE MOON (1964)
26. THE CRACK IN SPACE (1966)
27. THE THREE STIGMATA OF PALMER ELDRITCH (1965)
28. THE ZAP GUN (1967)
29. THE PENULTIMATE TRUTH (1964)
30. THE UNTELEPORTED MAN (1966, rev. 1983)
31. COUNTER-CLOCK WORLD (1967)
32. THE GANYMEDE TAKEOVER (with Ray Nelson, 1967)
33. DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? (1968)
34. THE GLIMMUNG OF PLOWMAN'S PLANET (1988)
35. UBIK (1969)
36. GALACTIC POT-HEALER (1969)
37. A MAZE OF DEATH (1970)
38. OUR FRIENDS FROM FROLIX 8 (1970)
39. FLOW MY TEARS, THE POLICEMAN SAID (1974)
40. A SCANNER DARKLY (1977)
41. UBIK: THE SCREENPLAY (1985)
42. DEUS IRAE (with Roger Zelazny, 1976)
43. RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH (1985)
44. VALIS (1981)
45. THE DIVINE INVASION (1981)
46. THE TRANSMIGRATION OF TIMOTHY ARCHER (1982)

Frank Hollander
Internet, CSNET: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu 
BITNET: fth6j@virginia
UUCP: mcnc!virginia!uvacs!fth6j
      uunet!virginia!uvacs!fth6j

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 22:09:46 GMT
From: codas!novavax!proxftl!bill@moss.att.com (T. William Wells)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

donn@CS.UTAH.EDU (Donn Seeley) writes:
> Part of the point is to make you question your ideas about reality.

Yeah, Dick likes to do that. And that is why he is SOOOOOOO disgusting.

Now that I have that off my chest...

Before I comment on Dick, I want to say a word about how I do criticism.
There are two related questions one can ask about a work of fiction.  The
first is: What does it say?  And the second is: How well does it say it?  I
view the second question as the province of literary criticism.

What Dick seems mostly to say is something like: reality is not real.
Since I find that message disgusting (not to mention unreal, no :-)
intended), I do not LIKE Dick.  As for the second question, I would have to
say that, since he presents a schizophrenic world view quite well that he
is a good writer.

------------------------------

Date: 22 May 88 02:25:50 GMT
From: austin@sun.uucp (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Mercerism in PKD's novels & short stories
 
A while back, someone asked what purpose Mercerism had in Philip Dick's
novel "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?".

In the introduction to his short story "The Little Black Box", Dick writes
"I made use of this story when I wrote Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
The concept of caritas (or agape) shows up in my writings as the key to the
authentic human. The android, which is the unauthentic human, the mere
reflex machine, is unable to experience empathy. In this story [Black Box]
it is never clear whether Mercer is an invader from another world. But he
must be; in a sense all religious leaders are...  but not from another
planet as such."

From the short story:

   "'It's a communion in which they all suffer and experience Mercer's
   ordeal together.' Like the Last Supper, he thought. That's the real key:
   the communion, the participation that is behind all religion. Or ought
   to be."

To me, the empathy boxes (and those who used them) were used as a
counterpoint to the androids in the novel. In the novel, unlike the movie
"Blade Runner" which portrayed the artificial humans attaining full human
feelings and emotions) the androids were shown as very unsympathetic
creatures, incapable of feeling human emotion or showing any sense of
empathy (the "unauthentic human" mentioned above).

A further note. Mercer is portrayed as an extra-terrestrial. Dick seems to
say in several of his novels (particularly "Valis") that mankind is
incapable of freeing itself from its troubles without intervention from an
outside source. This seems to jive with some Christian beliefs that people
themselves cannot be saved without similar intervention.

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 13:36:37 GMT
From: cwp@otter.hple.hp.com (Chris Preist)
Subject: PKD Short Stories

Could someone who has, or who has seen, the complete short stories of PKD
please tell me what format they come in, and how much they are?  Also, is
it really complete? I heard rumours that one story is missing.

Thanks,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 12:33:46 GMT
From: smith@cos.com (Steve Smith)
Subject: The John W. Campbell Letters

The John W. Campbell Letters, Vol. 1
Editors:
   Perry A. Chapdelaine, Sr.
   Tony Chapdelaine
   George Hay

Library of Congress  84-071553
ISBN 0-931150-16-7

Published by:
   AC Projects,Inc
   Rte 4, Box 137
   Franklin TN  37064
  (615) 646 3757

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 19:52:33 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Non-quest fantasy

BARBER@portland.BITNET (Wayne Barber) writes:
>Gene Wolfe wrote a non-quest fantasy called _The Devil in a Forest_.  It
>seems to be a story of what eventful lives in medieval times would have
>really been like.  Good and evil, while usually clearly defined in quest
>fantasies, is very hard to distinguish in this one.

_The Devin in a Forest_ is barely a fantasy -- and the one aspect of it
that might be fantastic in nature could easily be explained away.
Interesting that the book got labeled SF on the spine of the paperback;
which goes to show that authors end up pigeonholed by editors and
publishers for various and sundry reasons.

A book with fantastic elements that I have recently read and enjoyed is
_Quinn's Book_, by William Kennedy (currently available in hardcover).  It
is in no way a conventional fantasy (e.g., there are no swords and wizards,
etc., in this book, but some of the events are apparently supernatural in
nature) but is quite wonderful nonetheless.  As it is set in Albany New
York in the 1850's it lacks the `other world' setting that many might be
looking for.  Many readers of this group will no doubt not be interested in
the book, but I consider it a don't-miss.

James Branch Cabell wrote many fantasies, and while there are on occasion
quests, Cabell was primarily concerned with making points about human
nature, society, justice, appearances, and so forth, and the quests are
usually setups.  Quite enjoyable, and rather different from the
conventional quest fantasy.

Richard Welty
GE R&D, K1-5C39
Niskayuna, New York
518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{uunet,philabs,rochester}!steinmetz!welty

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 2 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:

	       Miscellaneous - Creating Supermen (5 msgs) &
                               Choose Your Universe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 06:39:27 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Superman

jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu.UUCP (Jim Meritt) writes:
>What is a superman?
>
>I don't necessarily mean the dragon-killing hero left over from adolescent
>daydreams, but what would make a "man" better than a "man" (term used in
>generic form, no sexual implications intended!).
>
>My approach was to try to determine what made "man" better (personal
>opinion) than animals, then try to extrapolate.  I would appreciate other
>people's opinion of what "this" might be.  And once whatever it is is
>determined, how might it be brought about?
>
>Examples of favorite entities (Slans, Homo Novis,......) 

A fun topic.  Here are some stories for examples -- Slan, Null A, Odd John,
Incomplete Superman (Poul Anderson), Dorsai, Lord of a Thousand Suns
(Anderson), Macroscope.

If we assume that our superman looks like a human being but is a really
improved model then I would look for improvements along these lines:

1.  Substantially higher intelligence.  This is an astoundingly common
topic in SF (usually coupled with neglible evidence for same from the
internal evidence of the stories in which it occurs.)  I suspect, for
rather nebulous theoretical reasons, that humans are fairly close to as
intelligent as something can be, except for factors of speed and memory
capacity.

2.  Reorganization of intelligence.  Human beings and other animals are
designed to run on autopilot.  We cannot consciously interact with our
physiology to any signifigant extent, which is probably just as well, since
we aren't very well prepared to do so.  For example, you can't tell your
white cells what to do.

3.  Better buffering between the mind and the external world.  Think of
drugs.  They "work" because they are chemicals that are like the chemicals
that cross the protected interface to the brain.  To a large extent our
moods and emotions are subject to the vagaries of our internal chemistry.

4.  Better birth.  The entire birth and childhood processes in humans is
pretty marginal

5.  Better repair mechanisms and better control of repair mechanisms.  One
should have the ability to detect malfunctions in the body, to analyze
them, and direct the repair of them.

6.  Better design of lots of things.  Eyes for example.  You don't really
need a blind spot.  Teeth for example.  You ought to be able to repair them
or replace them.

7.  Other senses -- the ability to detect magnetic fields and radiation,
for example.

8.  The ability to transfer large amounts of information directly from
one superman to another.

9.  A vastly improved ability to exist in a hostile environment.  For
example, the ability to survive naked in space.  This reminds me of a
fictional "superman" I didn't mention -- protectors.

  There, that ought to do for starters.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 06:56:58 GMT
From: dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio)
Subject: Re: Superman

Jim Meritt@stdc.jhuapl.e writes:
> What is a superman?
>
>I don't necessarily mean the dragon-killing hero left over from adolescent
>daydreams, but what would make a "man" better than a "man" (term used in
>generic form, no sexual implications intended!).
>
>Telescopic vision is great, but I have a tv.  Super strength is fine, but
>so is a crane and a dump truck.  Flying is great, but airplanes have come
>a long way, and the in-flight service is better.
>
>My approach was to try to determine what made "man" better (personal>
>opinion) than animals, then try to extrapolate.  I would appreciate other
>peoples opinion of what "this" might be.  And once whatever it is is
>determined, how might it be brought about?
>
>Examples of favorite entities (Slans, Homo Novis,......) might help the
>visualizations.

Niven's Pak Protectors!  Anyone up for some tree-of-life?

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 19:40:47 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Superman

Jim Meritt wrote:
>What is a superman?

Richard Harter wrote:
>A fun topic.  Here are some stories for examples -- Slan, Null A, Odd
>John, Incomplete Superman (Poul Anderson), Dorsai, Lord of a Thousand Suns
>(Anderson), Macroscope.

And The Optimax Man (Keith Laumer). Time Is the Simplest Thing (Clifford
Simak). The Great Time Machine Hoax (Keith Laumer). Dune's mentats and Bene
Gesserits (Frank Herbert). Macroscope (Piers Anthony). The People series
(Zenna Henderson). Polymath (John Brunner). The Kundalini Equation (Steve
Barnes).

> I suspect, for rather nebulous theoretical reasons, that humans are
> fairly close to as intelligent as something can be, except for factors of
> speed and memory capacity.

You might think at first this is a simple matter of opinion. On the other
hand, consider just how badly 99% of the human race measure up compared
with what we *know* some individuals are capable of. Then consider that
even the few demonstrably intelligent people are almost never generally
"intelligent" in all senses of the word. Geniuses like Albert Einstein may
be absent minded and "unintelligent" about everyday things. Even better
example: Einstein worked for 30 years at trying to disprove quantuum
mechanics purely for what amounted to philosophical and religious reasons,
against all evidence. Not very smart.

People, both in general and in particular cases, aren't very smart. We just
like to *think* we're smart. I claim that any single individual who showed
all the best aspects of intelligence all the time would be a superman.
Maybe Leonardo da Vinci was one such, I'm not sure. There certainly haven't
been many other examples!

> 2.  Reorganization of intelligence.  Human beings and other animals are
> designed to run on autopilot.  We cannot conciously interact with our
> physiology to any signifigant extent, which is probably just as well,
> since we aren't very well prepared to do so.  For example, you can't tell
> your white cells what to do.

This was a matter of opinion ten years ago; today it is false. See AMA
conference proceedings on Psychoneuroimmunology. The brain *does* in fact
tell your white cells what to do. The fact that this is *usually* not under
conscious control certainly does not mean that it *never* is.  Not to get
into too much detail, but consider biofeedback...any autonomic function
that can be measured can be put under conscious control. And they all end
up *indirectly* affected by conscious processes anyway.

> 3.  Better buffering between the mind and the external world.  Think of
> drugs.  They "work" because they are chemicals that are like the
> chemicals that cross the protected interface to the brain.  To a large
> extent our moods and emotions are subject to the vagaries of our internal
> chemistry.

Yes. Or you could equally well put it the other way around. People in
general (myself included) have very little control of this area compared
with an ideal standard. There *are* exceptions here, notably zen masters.

> 4.  Better birth.  The entire birth and childhood processes in humans
> is pretty marginal

Absolutely. Although it's not clear what kinds of physical improvements are
possible (e.g. widening the female pelvis any more would start interfering
with locomotion), it certainly would be nice.

> 5.  Better repair mechanisms and better control of repair mechanisms.
> One should have the ability to detect malfunctions in the body, to
> analyze them, and direct the repair of them.

I really like this one. Regrow an arm.

> 6.  Better design of lots of things.  Eyes for example.  You don't really
> need a blind spot.  Teeth for example.  You ought to be able to repair
> them or replace them.

It turns out to be difficult to improve on the eyes without losing
something.  The eyes are far better instruments overall than anything we
know how to make.  You could of course ask for, say, telescopic vision, but
we don't know how to do that without losing, say, their current compactness
and relative invulnerability (compared with something jutting out away from
the face).  Similar considerations apply to everything else, like the blind
spot. Still, that's not to say it's *impossible*.

It *would* be great if we could regrow teeth!

> 9.  A vastly improved ability to exist in a hostile environment.  For
> example, the ability to survive naked in space.  This reminds me of a
> fictional "superman" I didn't mention -- protectors.

This may not be possible either, simply due to radiation damage. Fun to
think about, though.

Great list!

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 88 05:46:26 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Superman

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
[... sundry features of the race above man, with Pete giving examples
of each from SF.]
>>4.  Better birth.  The entire birth and childhood processes in humans is
>>pretty marginal
>Again, the Bene Gesserit come to mind. Their breeding plan had been going
>on for at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, of generations.  Sometimes
>they were looking for specific genetic stamps, sometimes just a generally
>better stock.

   Most of the examples are pretty good.  This misses the boat.  If we are
talking about a race we are talking about superwoman as well as superman.
What I was getting at is that the physical process of child bearing and
birth in humans is cumbersome and hazardous, and excessively inconvenient.
Human babies are as big as they can be; they can barely get out -- indeed
sometimes they can't.  They are born before fetal development is completed
(the young in other placental mammals are much more developed at birth than
human young are.)  The young go through an extended period where they are
almost helpless.  The entire reproductive process in humans is fairly close
to the limits of feasibility.  The point here is that in our hypothetical
race the process of reproduction would be less hazardous and inconvenient
and that the young would be born in a state much more able to fend for
themselves.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 18:44:32 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Superman

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>If we assume that our superman looks like a human being but is a really
>improved model then I would look for improvements along these lines:
>
>1.  Substantially higher intelligence.  This is an astoundingly common
>topic in SF (usually coupled with neglible evidence for same from the
>internal evidence of the stories in which it occurs.)  I suspect, for
>rather nebulous theoretical reasons, that humans are fairly close to as
>intelligent as something can be, except for factors of speed and memory
>capacity.

A good example of this is in Sterling's _Schismatrix_. Humanity has begun
to develop into several offshoot races and sub-classes, many of which
exhibit very high intelligence. One of these groups is the "Superbrights,"
who are widely rumored, but very little evidence of their actual existence
can be found. The superbrights have intelligence many times greater than
the "normal" humans of the time, and are characterized by high-speed
thought, as well as complexity.

>2.  Reorganization of intelligence.  Human beings and other animals are
>designed to run on autopilot.  We cannot conciously interact with our
>physiology to any signifigant extent, which is probably just as well,
>since we aren't very well prepared to do so.  For example, you can't tell
>your white cells what to do.

As in the Bene Gesserit of the _Dune_ series. Reverend mothers could do
some pretty impressive things with body chemistry. Alia, Paul Atreides
younger sister, actually prevented herself from aging. It was made apparent
that the others had the same power, but morality prevented them from using
it. She was known as an "abomination" for her use of the power. The Bene
Gesserit also studied prana-bindu, which allowed them precise control of
individual muscles and muscle groups, rather than the normal human method
which seems to view muscular movement only as the means to an end-action,
rather than an end in and of itself.

>4.  Better birth.  The entire birth and childhood processes in humans
>is pretty marginal

Again, the Bene Gesserit come to mind. Their breeding plan had been going
on for at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, of generations.  Sometimes
they were looking for specific genetic stamps, sometimes just a generally
better stock.

>6.  Better design of lots of things.  Eyes for example.  You don't really
>need a blind spot.  Teeth for example.  You ought to be able to repair
>them or replace them.

Shark-style teeth in humans? Sounds feasible.

>7.  Other senses -- the ability to detect magnetic fields and radiation,
>for example.

Var, in Piers Anthony's _Var the Stick_ had the ability to detect
radiation. Of course, he was also an ape-like mutant, with a few other
problems.

>8.  The ability to transfer large amounts of information directly from
>one superman to another.

I haven't seen this in humans, except in the form of a telepathic scan,
which is faster because it doesn't have to use words. But in _Sight of
Proteus_ (by Sheffield?), the Logians have this ability. Normally, they
communicate by sequential flashes of color on panels on their chests.  When
in a hurry, they could use "burst mode", which allowed them to subdivide
the chest panels into smaller units (like pixels) and transmit information
in parallel, rather than serially.

  A friend of mine from college had a great idea. Eliminate the pinky,
which is the least used digit, and replace it with a second opposable
thumb. You could do a lot more with two thumbs on each hand, although
grasping might take some getting used to.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 16:26:06 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

My personal choices of universe:

1) The world of Patricia McKillip's _Riddle-Master of Hed_ trilogy.  Apart
from the fact that the books themselves are a work of art, the world is
fascinating.  And anybody can go to Caithnard to study Riddle-mastery, so
it doesn't matter who I start out as.

2) Pern.
Yes, I know I could wind up as a lowly drudge, but I think the HarperHall
trilogy (at least the first) proved that with enough motivation you *can*
change your position somewhat.  Even if it meant moving from a drudge in a
Hold to being a drudge in a Weyr; I'd be happy just hanging out around the
dragons.

3) The future Earth of John Varley (as detailed in some of the stories in
   _The Persistence of Vision_)
This just seems like one of the more pleasant futures I've read about.  I
like the description of society and the technology he uses.  Of course,
it's been a while since I read them, so I might have missed something ...

If I were allowed to choose my social status:

1) A Dragonrider on Pern.  Obviously.

Also 1) A Cheysuli warrior in Homana.

For those unfamiliar with the Chronicles of the Cheysuli (by J. Roberson),
the Cheysuli are a warrior race in a medieval-type society.  When a male
Cheysuli reaches adolescence, he travels alone into the forest and stays
there until he finds (or is found by) his *lir*, which is (is? rather,
takes the shape of) a forest animal (wolf, hawk, bear, fox, etc.).  The
*lir* bonds telepathically with the young man, becoming his constant
companion (sound familiar [npi]? :-), and allowing him to take on the shape
of the animal when he wants to -- which I would find fascinating.
   For those feminists out there: 
   a) I didn't write the books (and the author is female).
   b) Female Cheysuli have other gifts...
[If anyone is interested in this series, the books are fairly well-done,
with the exception of #4, _Track of the White Wolf_, which is spectacular
(in my humble opinion, anyway).  I would love to discuss them with someone
else who has read them.]

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 2 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 190

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Bellairs & Gibson (2 msgs) &
                           Harrison (2 msgs) & LeGuin &
                           McKillip (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 19:33:00 GMT
From: perry@apollo.uucp (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: John Bellairs

FNBENJ@weizmann.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
>Does anyone out there know of anything written by John Bellairs besides
>"The Face in the Frost"?

His only other "adult" book is the out-of-print "St. Fidgeta and Other
Parodies", a collection of humorous essays on Catholic themes.  Most of his
work has been for children, where he specializes in what he calls "scary
adventures" -- sort of like the children's "mystery" genre, but the
supernatural element is taken seriously (the ghost does not turn out to be
faked up by a smuggling ring).  I love these books (as well as The Face in
the Frost)... Bellairs has a good sense of humor, an ability to capture the
little details of life (the children's books all take place during the
Fifties, and he includes lots of incidental nostalgia from his own
recollections of the period), and he has the ability to tell a really scary
story.  No gore or violent death, but creeping shadows and ghostly hands
reaching out in the darkness and...

The ones I remember are: (there are 3 related sequences sharing characters
- -- I may have some of the names slightly wrong... there's a certain pattern
you may observe).

   The House with a Clock in its Walls
   The Figure in the Shadows
   The Letter, the Witch, and the Ring

   The Treasure of Alpheus Winterborn
   The Dark Secret of Weatherend
   The Lamp from the Warlock's Tomb

   The Curse of the Blue Figurine
   The Mummy, the Will, and the Crypt
   The Spell of the Sorceror's Skull   
   The Revenge of the Wizard's Ghost
   The Eyes of the Killer Robot

Another excellent book, also out of print, is "The Pedant and the Shuffly",
in children's picture-book format, but I'm not sure of the intended
audience.  The premise is a villain who catches passers-by and by twisted
logic convinces them they don't exist (or something like that).  An
excellent example of Bellairs' somewhat twisted humor.  Another example,
from The House with a Clock in its Walls, the protagonist's uncle, a
magician (not a prestidigitator) at one point (a complete throwaway)
invents the "fuse-box dwarf", a creature that leaps out of darkened
basements and shrieks "Dreeb!  Dreeb!  I am the Fuse-Box Dwarf!".  Alas,
there does not seem to be much likelyhood of another adult fantasy from
Bellairs, who is now fairly comfortably turning out these children's books
one a year or so.  "The Lamp from the Warlock's Tomb" is the most recent
release, and there's apparently a new one due in the Fall, a departure from
these series concerning a subway car that travels through time?  (I went to
a lecture by Bellairs at the Concord Library last Fall, where my wife and I
were about the only ones over 4 feet high, barring the parents lining the
back wall).

Jim Perry
Apollo Computer
Chelmsford MA
perry@apollo.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 11:35:39 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

_Mona Lisa Overdrive_ finally appeared in the shops at the end of last
week. (ISBN 0-575-04020-3)

It is the third, and the flysheet claims final, part of Gibson's cyberspace
sequence.

It is a sequal to both _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_ and ties up some of
the loose ends left in both novels.

It is set seven years after the events of _CZ_ in the Sprawl; a scrapheap
wasteland called Dog Solitude; and in London which, apart from the prices
(30 pounds a pint!), seems to have changed very little from the present
day.

Gibson did say in an interview that he loved his visit to London just after
the publication of Neuromancer, and that it had provided him with material
which he would probably use in a book sometime. This is the book.

The characters are the usual assortment of street people and technical
wizards we have come to expect from Gibson. Some we have met before in the
two earlier books and we discover what they have been doing in the
intervening years. Others, like the Mona of the title, are new.

_MLO_ suffers perhaps from following the Cyberpunk formula too closely. If
you have eagerly devoured Gibson's earlier works, some of the threads of
the plot in this book will be a little predictable.

All Cyberpunk addicts should run to the nearest bookshop and order this
book now. For everyone else, a quick walk will do.

I give it ****. (Neuromancer *****, Count Zero ***)

The final book? ... possibly, but somehow I doubt it.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 12:56:05 GMT
From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers Cawley)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

 I'm afraid I can't post the full article in as it doesn't appear to be
very legal, so I'll summarise.

 The following is reproduced, without permission from Q magazine, issue 21
Quote:
(deleted)
unquote.

Hopefully I've chopped enough out of that so that I won't get clobbered.

The magazines rating system is similar to the OtherRealms scale, as a
yardstick _Watchmen_ got 5 stars, as did a biography of Richard Branson,
Ballard's _Empire of the Sun_ and the Harlan Ellison anthology published
last year.

Any way I hope this will prove of interest.  I'm not to keen on the bit
about bidding farewell to The Sprawl though.  I wonder who's going to
resurface from earlier books, Molly looks a fair bet, and the Finn has had
a bit part in the last two books so meaybe we'll get him.  As for the
corporations if Maas doesn't prove to be prominent I'll be amazed.  Anybody
care to offer odds.

Piers Cawley
pdc@maths.nott.ac.uk
pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk
...!uunet!ukc!dcl-cs!nott-cs!tuck!pdc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 07:50:56 GMT
From: ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter)
Subject: Re: You Can Be A Stainless Steel Rat

Okay, I bought this as well (being a collector of things Harrisonish.)  I
was a little disappointed with it too, the idea of an "adventure" quickly
falling by the wayside, as whatever you do you end up going in the
direction that the author wants you to go with no means to go off at a
tangent from the main plot if you wanted to.

After reading A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born, I think that Harrison wrote
You Can Be during a coffee break whilst in the middle of writing the former.
Well, it seems like it.

Cheers.

Lee Carter

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 22:14:18 GMT
From: wphughes@violet.waterloo.edu (William Hughes)
Subject: Re: You Can Be A Stainless Steel Rat

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>Has anyone read Harrison's latest, YCBASSR?  It's one of those books
>written in the second person, where at key places the reader has to make a
>choice and then flip to the indicated page, read a bit more and perhaps
>make another decision, or perhaps die or finish the mission.

Ok, I confess. I actually bought the thing.

>I've never read one of these things before, except for brief browsing in
>bookstores at things that look like they were written for bright 9 year
>olds.

9 year olds, yes, but not particularly bright 9 year olds.  The problem
with such structures is that if you want an interestingly long main path
you can't spend much effort on the side paths.  Even so the structure of
the book is unreasonably simplistic.  Mostly what happens is that the
narrative path splits into two and either one path is an immediate dead
end, or both paths immediately rejoin.  As an "adventure" this is real
dull.  

As to whether Harrison makes this worthwhile, my answer would be an
unqualified, not really.  The writing is interestingly lighthearted and
start out well, but Harrison seems to tire of the project and the latter
part of the book seems to be just more of the same.  Nice twist at the end
but not well enough developed (surely they could spare more than a page).
Still, some good jokes, and a good chuckle or two (but no real laughs).

Not worth buying, except perhaps as a present for a bright 9 year old.
(But there are much better books to give a bright 9 year old.)

William Hughes

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 18:37:56 GMT
From: manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re:  Hard SF and Literary Quality

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>"Lathe of Heaven" wasn't very optimistic was it?  "The Dispossessed"
>didn't impress me as being all that optimistic, although I agree that most
>of her fiction is rather.  LeGuin seems to be the exception of a good
>writer who writes optimistically.

I beg to disagree. The key to "Lathe of Heaven" is the repeated quote from
"With a Little Help from My Friends". Indeed, some of the worlds therein
are rather horrible, but read the ending.

"The Dispossessed" is certainly neither optimistic nor pessimistic; Le Guin
is writing about a human conflict (cooperation/competition, if you like)
which has no resolution. Her Utopia isn't perfect (and her protagonist
doesn't really care for it), but what human society could be perfect.

Le Guin writes comedy, in the classical sense. That means her work isn't
overtly funny (though there is much wit); however her goal is not to show
ineluctable doom, but to explore various themes about being human.  Even
the Le Guin books I haven't loved (just about everything after "The
Dispossessed, I'm afraid), have given me much to think about.

The other thing about Le Guin is that she's one hell of a writer: reading
Le Guin is a joy to anyone who loves the English language (I haven't read
any of the Heroes in Hell books, or the Robotech series, so I can't compare
them :-). In one essay, called (I think) "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie",
she does a wonderful job of demolishing pseudo-Tolkeinesque writing.

Read Le Guin. Try "The Left Hand of Darkness" (paying particular attention
to the Foreword). That's the book which hooked me.

Vincent Manis                    
Department of Computer Science
University of British Columbia
manis@cs.ubc.ca
manis@cs.ubc.cdn
manis@ubc.csnet
{ihnp4!alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!manis

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 18:33:08 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Riddlemaster 

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
>My personal choices of universe:
>
>1) The world of Patricia McKillip's _Riddle-Master of Hed_ trilogy.  Apart
>from the fact that the books themselves are a work of art, the world is
>fascinating.  And anybody can go to Caithnard to study Riddle-mastery, so
>it doesn't matter who I start out as.

Someone actually liked this series? I thought that it was unnecessarily
cumbersome in all aspects. There was too much effort to make the world
detailed, and the plot (if there was one) ominous and mysterious. As a
result, I didn't get the feeling that this world had actually existed for a
long time (the usual feeling desired), but instead I got the feeling that
someone (McKillip) had just sat down and attempted to create a history. The
plot, which I remember as "a young king seeks the truth, and bad things
happen, but he is destined to prevail" also seems unnecessarily burdensome,
in that everything is artificially loaded with importance.

Aside from the style, I can't criticize. I saw nothing *but* an attempt at
style, which struggled in vain for that all-important "sense of wonder".

Interestingly enough, in a couple of SFBC bulletins (where I purchased the
three-in-one trilogy), it was listed with the "young readers' selections."
Unusual. Although it had a childishly simple plot and an attempted "fairy
tale" world, I can't imagine a young reader with the patience to plod
through it all.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 20:18:15 GMT
From: jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden)
Subject: Re: Riddlemaster

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>Someone actually liked this series? I thought that it was unnecessarily
>cumbersome in all aspects. There was too much effort to make the world
>detailed, and the plot (if there was one) ominous and mysterious. As a
>result, I didn't get the feeling that this world had actually existed for
>a long time (the usual feeling desired), but instead I got the feeling
>that someone (McKillip) had just sat down and attempted to create a
>history. The plot, which I remember as "a young king seeks the truth, and
>bad things happen, but he is destined to prevail" also seems unnecessarily
>burdensome, in that everything is artificially loaded with importance.

    I love this series.  (The RiddleMaster of Hed, Heir of Sea and Fire and
Harpist in the Wind, all by Patricia McKillip).  I think that she rambles a
bit in her writing, but overall she does a beautiful job of portraying a
world full of emotion: loyalty, trust, hatred, love.  It's not "a young
king, etc."  Morgan, in most parts of the story, didn't want to find the
truth.  He was happy as he was, and had to be pushed most of the time.  His
unwillingness is very true-to-life.  In his position, would you want to
investigate something at the risk of your life, or would you rather be
happy at home running the country you love?  He is never portrayed as
"destined to prevail."  The only thing that is destined is his coming.
What comes after that is never stated as destined.  He could fail, right up
to the end.
    Yes, the land does seem a bit incomplete.  I wonder what's off the map
to the west.  But I can forgive her that.  She portrays what she shows very
well indeed.  The history did not seem contrived to me.  There are enough
little details and anecdotes to make it seem real.  It is a young world;
the Earth-Masters were only perhaps 5,000 years ago.  You can't reasonabley
expect a long and detailed history.

>Aside from the style, I can't criticize. I saw nothing *but* an attempt at
>style, which struggled in vain for that all-important "sense of wonder".

    I thought her style was very effective.  For all the power that Morgan,
Raederle(sp?), and the wizards possess, they are human.  That is the beauty
of Tolkien's work, (Tolkien was far superior.  No flames, please) in that
despite all the strangeness, his characters were so human.  I got a sense
of wonder, but I also identified with the characters, which is essential in
a work like this.  The series revolves around the people and how they deal
with what is happening to them.  If a reader doesn't identify with them, he
loses much of the beauty of the series.

>Interestingly enough, in a couple of SFBC bulletins (where I purchased the
>three-in-one trilogy), it was listed with the "young readers' selections."
>Unusual. Although it had a childishly simple plot and an attempted "fairy
>tale" world, I can't imagine a young reader with the patience to plod
>through it all.

    I am surprised.  I would not put it in the Children's Section.
Although I did first read the series when I was in the 7th grade, I don't
see most children doing that.  I don't think the plot was simple.  Had you
figured out the mystery before it was revealed?  Doesn't the idea of a
character like Deth, who knows people so well that he can disarm them with
a sentence, intrigue you?  Remember what he said to Morgon on the threshold
of the Castle of the King of An?  "They were promised a man of peace."
That section was so well done, because I understood Morgon, what he was
going through, and why he wanted to do what he wanted to do.
    This is getting long, so I'll stop it here.  I love this series.  It's
one of my favorites, and every couple of years I re-read it.  I just had to
reply.  *grin* I'd love to have a discussion on the subject, if anyone out
there is interested.

Joshua Alden

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 2 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Afterlives & Immortalist Bibliography &
                      Biblographies and Indices (2 msgs) &
                      Book Recommendations & Author Request Answered

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 May 88 22:17:56 GMT
From: c60b-bb@buddy.berkeley.edu (Margaret S Pai)
Subject: Re: Choose Your Universe!

carols@drilex.UUCP (Carol Springs) writes:
>Think about it.  Suppose someone arranged to install your mental patterns,
>that which you perceive to be you, in an accelerated clone of yourself,
>and to kill your old body at the instant of the, oh, let's call it mind
>transfer.  So you could live on and on in a younger body, right?  Wrong.
>Let's say there's a glitch and the old you isn't killed.  So there are two
>mentally identical yous walking around, right?  I think you'd more likely
>continue to think of your old self as "me" and the new one as "that person
>just like me, only not."

This reminds me of a short story I read once (title and author forgotten)
in the anthology _Afterlives_, ed by Ian Watson and Pamela Sargent.  The
people of that advanced earth, when they have to die, have their brain
patterns traced onto a young clone, two or three years old.  When they
reach the age of five, they are no longer minors, since they have their old
adult brains and memories, and just needed to be trained to adjust to their
new bodies.  Anyway, the protagonist, after having this done, wakes up to
discover that he is trapped in an endless row of rooms, all alone, with
just a robot that feeds him and follows him from room to room.  If he goes
through too many rooms in a day, the robot won't follow, and he starves
until it catches up.  If he refuses to go through any rooms at all,
eventually the robot leaves without him.  He can't go back to rooms he's
already been in, he can only go forward.  He thinks, horrified, that the
operation has gone wrong and he's screwed up for life.  But then he starts
having dreams about playing on the beach near the clinic, meeting other
young clones.  He dreams of telling his psychiatrist about having dreams of
going through an endless row of rooms, and the psychiatrist tells him that
it seems to be a common dream among newly cloned patients, no doubt caused
by some psychological mumbo-jumbo, but it'll go away eventually.
Eventually, it does, and his dream-self goes about life happily, thinking
that everything has gone just right.
     If you ask me, that's probably worse than the old self, new self
problem.  In this case, you're really dead, you just can tell anyone, and
no one knows, not even your clone self, who thinks he's you, and doing
wonderfully, with a whole new life ahead of him....

     Anyway, just my $.02.  By the way, the anthology is really pretty
good.  It has a great story by JG Ballard in it ("Time of Passage"?  Geez,
my memory's shot.).  And, guaranteed, in every story, the character really
does die.

Margaret Pai

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 12:25:41 GMT
From: till@didsgn.uucp (didsgn)
Subject: Immortalist bibliography

It seems there were enough requests to bother posting this.  (For those who
may have missed it: I offered to post a bibliography of immortalist
literature- fiction and non-fiction, in a posting relating to the death of
R A Heinlein.)

If you DON'T want to read on, please exit now...
If you do read on, and have comments, please mail or post!

A List of Immortalist Writings:

The following bibliography, covering books that have been published and
re-published, does *not* list the currently available editions.  Also, some
of the listed works are members of (typically science fiction of fantasy)
series- in which case I have listed the name of the series, and omitted the
individual titles (excepting maybe the one of the first member in order to
get anybody interested started in his search).  My rationale is that
anybody who REALLY wants to find a particular book will go to the effort of
contacting me personally to ask. My email and smail addresses are included
at the end- and I am very willing to supply any further information I have.

The citeria for including books in this list:
   They must include, more than just peripherally, the topic of human 
   immortality or emortality.

   If they are fiction then the removal of the immortalist element would
   have to substantially change the existing storyline.  

   If they are non-fiction then the topic must have been covered either
   explicitly or obliquely, as physical immortality, or disguised by
   by references to "longevity".

   I have actually read them either fully or in parts.

The order is alphabetical by author. 

Works are flagged by class:
SF      -       science fiction
FA      -       fantasy
GF      -       general fiction
PH      -       philosophy
GN      -       general non-fiction
NA      -       new-age type of writing
CL      -       Christian literature

I have marked those works I consider to be of special merit (don't ask
about the criteria!) with 1-4 asterisks (that is not meant to be a
derogation of those who remain unmarked- but merely a reflection of MY
personal preferences and/or inclinations). Also, this rating scheme only
relates to the relevance and/or value of those works as contributions to
the general discussion about the pros and cons of a) the desirability of
immortality as implemented in human beings, and b) ways and means to
achieve it.  Ratings *precede* the listing of the author's name.

Another point worthy of note:

There is an unbelievable treasure of books out there (fiction and non-
fiction) dealing with the topic of human immortality.

In the fictional area, fantasy is typically the most prolific breeding
ground. Here, magic and naturally-supernatural forces take the place of
science- or, quite often, *become* the science of the universe depicted.
Other genres also contain some interesting tidbits, but not quite as many.
This is where Heinlein stands out as the most productive writer.

Non-fiction, however, is where the real surprises lie.  The amount of
serious (rational, believable, -definitely *non-cuckoo* !!-) advocates for
the striving for physical immortality (or "emortality" as it should be
called- meaning "deathless life") is staggering.  The range is equally
suprising, from Taoist to Christian philosophers, to rather materialist
thinkers, and including some seriously scientific and technological
visionaries.

The sample following is LIMITED- believe me. I haven't read even half of
the material I know is out there. That may be either because I have not yet
been able to get a book or piece of writing- or else I have glanced at one
that was available, but considered it to be rubbish (and that omits it from
this list here by implication).

A lot of the stuff written about the topic is, not suprisingly, quite
insufferable. Some of the remainder is out of print, and may only be found
in rare book shops or good libraries. Sorry abut that, but that's life in
emortalist literature...

List follows:

Two literary/cinematographic phenomena do not easily fit my bibliographic
scheme- but they require mentioning anyway:

Rating: ***
One is from Germany, and started in the early '60s. It was a series of pulp
magazines, published weekly. The name of the series was "Perry Rhodan- Der
Erbe des Universums" ("Inheritor of the Universe").  The last one I read
was issue #550, or thereabouts, and I believe it is still being sold. Some
individual stories out of the series have made their way into the English
speaking realms as paperbacks- but that was but a feeble reflection of the
phenomenon named "Perry Rhodan".  The series itself was, in its scope,
writing, and contents, far superior to the only (even though remote)
equivalent in the US, namely Star Trek.  The core figures (some humans, and
human and un-human aliens) were immortal, kept that way by purely
technological means, provided to them by a superior intelligence. This was,
in every sense, hard-core sf.

The second phenomenon is Star Trek, of course. Here the theme of
immortality creeps up again and again, though predominantly in a negative
context (meaning that either we have lunatic human or human-like immortals
or beings so superior that it makes you sick...). There are, however,
oblique deviations from that trend.

Aero, R         - (GN)          The Complete Book of Longevity.

Rating: **
Anthony, Piers  - (FA)          The "Incarnations of Immortality" series.
                                First one is "On a Pale Horse".

Baker, Martha   - (GN)          How to Think To Live Forever.

Rating: *
Bill, AC        - (GN,PH)       The Conquest of Death: An Imminent Step in
                                Evolution.

Bogomolets, AA  - (GN)          The Prolongation of Life.

Rating: ***
Eddings, David  - (FA)          The Belgariad and The Malloreon.        
                                Two series of fantasy novels. First book
                                in the Belgariad is "Pawn of Prophecy".
                                The Belgariad is complete (5 books).
                                First book in The Malloreon is "Guardians
                                of the West". The Malloreon is currently
                                incomplete (only 2 books published).
                                
Ettinger, RCW    - (GN)         The Prospect of Immortality.

Rating: *
Farmer, Philip J - (SF,FA)      "World of Tiers" series. First book was
                                "Maker of Universes".
                                Riverworld Series. First book was "To Your
                                Scattered Bodies Go".

Gaze, Harry     -  (PH,CL)      To Live Forever.

Rating: *
Giles, L         - (GN)         A Gallery of Chinese Immortals.

Rating: ***
Gillies, J       - (GN)         Psychological Immortality.

Gruman, G J      - (GN)         A History of Ideas about the Prolongation
                                of Life . (In Transactions of the American 
                                Philosophical Society, Dec 1966).

Rating: *
Gunn, James      - (SF,FA)      The Immortal.
                                The Magicians.

Rating: ****
Harrington, Alan - (GN)         The Immortalist.

Rating: ****
Heinlein, R A    - (SF,FA)      Methuselah's Children.
                                Time Enough for Love.
                                I Will Fear No Evil.
                                Cat Who Walks Through Walls.
                                Number of the Beast.
                                
Rating: *
Herbert, Frank   - (SF,FA)      The "Dune" series of books.

Rating: *
Hilton, James    - (GF)         Lost Horizon.

Rating: *
Hutschnecker, A  - (GN)         The Will to Live.

Rating: *
Jung C G &
Wilhelm, R       - (GN,PH)      The Secret of the Golden Flower. 
                                (Translation and comment on an ancient
                                Chinese text).

Rating: **
Koontz, Dean R   - (GF)         Strangers.
                                Watchers.

Liu, Da          - (GN)         The Tao of Health and Longevity.

McDevitt,  J     - (SF)         The Hercules Text.

Rating: *
Orr, Leonard     - (GN,NA)      Physical Immortality and Transfiguration.
                                Rebirthing in the New Age.

Rating: *
Otto, Stuart     - (PH,CL)      How to Conquer Physical Death.
("Friend Stuart")               The Turning Point.

Reeves, M        - (FA)         The Shattered World.

Rating: **
Reynolds, Mack   - (SF)         Eternity.

Rating: ***
Siegel, Bernie   - (GN)         Love, Medicine, and Miracles.

Smith, EE "Doc"  - (SF)         The Lensman series.

Rating: **
Spalding, Baird  - (GN,NA)      The Life and Teaching of the Masters of
                                the Far East (5 volumes).

Stewart, FM      - (SF)         The Methuselah Enzyme.

Rating: ****
Troward, Thomas  - (PH)         The Creative Process in the Individual.
                                The Edinburgh Lectures on Mental Science.

Rating: *
Unamuno, M. de   - (GN,PH)      The Tragic Sense of Life.

Vance, Jack      - (SF)         To Live Forever.

Vardeman, R E    - (FA)         The "Centotaph Road" series. First book
                                was "Cenotaph Road").

Walford, R L     - (GN)         Maximum Life Span.

Watson, Lyall    - (GN)         The Romeo Error.

Wilde, Oscar     - (GF)         The Picture of Dorian Gray.

Rating: **
Zelazny, Roger   - (SF,FA)      This Immortal.
                                Lord of Light.
                                Isle of the Dead.
                                Madwand.

According to Korean traditions one of the symbols of longevity was a
mushroom, called the "pulloch'o". This fungus was a purely mythical entity,
puportedly never seen by mortal humans (keep that in mind as you read on).
In many works of Korean art ( and the Koreans REALLY had it in for
immortality- much like the ancient Chinese) the mushroom appears in myriad
places, often in association with other common symbols of eternal life
(such as cranes, turtles, rocks and the peaches from the orchard of eternal
life). Not infrequently immortals are shown as carrying loads of them
around on their backs, presumably to share them with their cohorts.  The
mushrooms themselves, when depicted, look like small clouds with very
peculiar appendages. *Very* much like brains, in fact.  Talk about subtle
messages for those who want to see...

(For those interested in a reference, try "Korea's Cultural Roots" by Dr.
Jon Carter Covell, HOLLYM INT. CORP., Elizabeth, New Jersey, 1981)

Till Noever
210 Spalding Trail N.E.
Atlanta, Ga, 30328 USA
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 88 19:24:19 GMT
From: markz@ssc.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Biblographies and Magazine Indices

I'm looking for a book or database that has a list of all SF publications
for any author.

Most of the academic biblographies only cover book publications , and are
useless for the more obscure authors, and Tuck and Reinhold? are out of
date for the things I'm trying to collect.

Is there a more up to date version of the magazine index list published by
the New England SFA (or something like it).

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 19:05:03 GMT
From: newsome@dasys1.uucp (Richard Newsome)
Subject: Re: Biblographies and Magazine Indices

>I'm looking for a book or database that has a list of all SF publications
>for any author.

You and everybody else. Compile it yourself and I guarantee you'll make a
(small) fortune. In the meantime, Currey is working on an updated version
of his bibliography, which covers only books, and doesn't attempt to
include all authors...just those that Currey considers worth collecting.
It would be nice if there were some sort of comprehensive source. SFWA
should put one out as a moneymaking venture, selling to the library market.

Richard Newsome
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!newsome

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 19:28:24 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: book recommendations

Before it disappears, take a look at Leigh Kennedy's JOURNAL OF NICHOLAS
THE AMERICAN, available in paperback from St. Martins.  The Nebula jury was
kind enough to put this fine book on the ballot recently.  Like
Silverberg's DYING INSIDE, it is the story of someone trying to cope with
psionic abilities.  My only complaint is that the idea that the book is an
actual journal is silly and unnecessary, but so what?  It's less than 200
pages, so you can't go wrong...  No spaceships, though.

Also, Kim Stanley Robinson's THE GOLD COAST is good.  It is a thematic
sequel to THE WILD SHORE.  The book is set in an Orange County future where
the military-industrial complex has gone wild.  In my copy of the book, KSR
inscribed "an OC memoir".  It would appear that this book is his personal
nightmare -- perhaps more so than THE WILD SHORE.  For now, only available
in hardback (from Tor).

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 20:07:39 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Author Request

MPAGAN%ATL.DECnet@GE-CRD.ARPA:
>Has Anyone out there heard of a book called _A_Billion_Days_of_Earth_?  I
>read it many years ago, like in 7th grade (approx 1977).  Who was the
>author? I vaguely remember the plot had something to do with our planet in
>the very distant future where the "humans" are actually genetically
>engineered dogs (and/or rats)...

The author is Doris Piserchia.  As the title implies, the story takes place
about three million years from now.

Piserchia does not appear to be highly rated as an author, but I've found
most of her books to be well worth reading.  Her books tend to feature
somewhat antisocial adolescent girls making their way through a world so
unsympathetic that it's sometimes funny.  I'd particularly recommend
"Spaceling".

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 2 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Moran & Spinrad (2 msgs) &
                            Vance (2 msgs) & Wolfe &
                            Book Recommendations & 
                            Title Requests (2 msgs) &
                            Request Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 15:36:06 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@mtune.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE ARMAGEDDON BLUES by Daniel Keys Moran

		 THE ARMAGEDDON BLUES by Daniel Keys Moran
		    Bantam Spectra, 1988, 0-553-27115-6
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     One of the great classics of science fiction is FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON
written by Daniel Keyes.  Now, probably "Daniel Keys Moran" is this
author's real name, but I can't help but feel that the use of his middle
name is calculated make the average bookstore-goer do a double-take when
s/he sees what seems to be a new book of the author of FLOWERS FOR
ALGERNON.  This apparent commercial plot is unfortunate, because it may
sour readers on this book before they have a chance to give it a fair
shake.

     Don't get me wrong--it's *not* another FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON.  But
Moran has come up with an interesting, if somewhat off-the-wall, concept.
He takes a woman warrior from the future, an immortal from the past, and a
nuclear holocaust.  Georges, the immortal, is handled well throughout.
Jalian, the warrior, is acceptable as a character, though the "female post-
holocaust warrior" is becoming a bit of a stereotype in science fiction; if
the argument is that women rule because men mucked things up so much, why
give the women all the traits that made the men muck it up?  But as I said,
the characters in general are believable, the plot moves along, the
conclusion is acceptable, and all in all, this shows promise as a first
novel.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP:	att!mtgzy!ecl or ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA:	ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 15:56:32 GMT
From: manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re: Iron Dream review.

The whole point of "The Iron Dream" is that "heroic fantasy" (which is
epitomised by Howard's "Onan[sic] the Barbarian", whose adeptness in
fighting and whose ability to get mindless females when he needed them have
provided seed-spilling opportunities for countless heterosexual male
adolescents) is based on Wagner; Hitler's adoration of Wagner is widely
known.

The Hitler of "The Iron Dream", *is* our Adolf Hitler, in a different
universe. His artistic ineptitude (he tried twice, in our world, to get
into art school; both times the judges turned him down, because he was
unable to draw humans, though his pictures of buildings were quite
draughtsmanlike) causes him to drift into SF illustrating where there was
lots of room for the mediocre--look in some of the less well-done pulps of
the 30's and 40's. Meanwhile, his dreams of power fester, and he plays them
out in the only way he can.

The section leading to the great war has pretty exact parallels (as Hitler
was, to the best of our knowledge, heterosexual, it is not surprising that
his equivalent of Ernst Roehm is heterosexual too). Of course, the war has
a different outcome, but we *are* dealing with Hitler's fantasy life here.

Just as there's a sexual subtext to heroic fantasy, so too is there a
sexual subtext to Naziism. Mein Kampf is full of sexual imagery, much of
which is coupled with words such as "disease" and "degenerate": our Hitler
returns again and again to the image of the cunning Jewish rapist defiling
Aryan womanhood. A number of the relatively progressive movements in 19th
century Germany, such as the feminist and gay movements (both of which
existed!), and even the nudists (!), had fringes which drifted off into
Naziism.  (I of course hasten to add that these *were* only fringes.)

"The Iron Dream" has a lot to say, but its central theme is that Naziism is
not something "out there", alien to right-thinking people, but rather a
perversion of things we know and love. Wagner inspired Hitler, but he also
inspired Tolkien. H.G. Wells, in "The Outline of History", could call the
swastika a sign of civilisation, but it only means one thing to us now.

In essence, Spinrad is saying that fantasy is very dangerous: if you can
create any world you want, that gives you immense power. It's not the raw
material you start with (the heroes, evil monsters, and the like), but what
you bring to it that determines the outcome: if you're a humane, thoughtful
person such as Tolkien, you can create worlds of wonder; a Hitler can take
the same tools and produce hell.

I wonder whether I'm the only person who thinks that the afterword of "The
Iron Dream" contains echoes of the ending of "The Man in the High Castle".

Vincent Manis
Department of Computer Science
University of British Columbia
manis@cs.ubc.ca
manis@cs.ubc.cdn
manis@ubc.csnet
ihnp4!alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!manis

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 20:00:58 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Iron Dream

The impressive thing about "The Iron Dream" is how *easy* it is to identify
with the protagonist and his goals.  By switching labels (various kinds of
mutants instead of various nationalities) Spinrad manages to get around our
reflexive rejection of what is really hate literature.  It is important to
recall that before WWII people hadn't been brought up with these red
buttons: It was as natural for them to respond positively to the Nazi myths
as it is for us to respond to Spinrad's.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 17:26:07 GMT
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Vance (was: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #150)

bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU (Bard Bloom) writes:
>Jack Vance is a superb writer.  His characters are mostly flat.  His plots
>are mostly unconvincing and frequently tedious.  If he has any social,
>religious, political, or other point, it escapes me at the moment.  But
>none of that matters, to some of us at least; that's not why we read Jack
>Vance.
>
>He is a superb >writer<.  There aren't many people, living or dead, who
>can put words together with his style and elegance.  His eccentric
>cultures, worlds, and circumstances have almost no peers.  His subtlety is
>amazing.

I quite agree that Vance is a superb writer. (Though of course no amount of
"putting words together" without a plot can produce an entertaining story:
in fact Vance often has very effective or/and amusing plots.) The only two
books by Vance that fall completely flat in my opinion are The Grey Prince
and Wyst:Alastor 1716. The reason is that Vance in these two books does
make known - in the case of Wyst at dreary interminable length - his views
on some more or less political matters. As for his other books, they make
no "religious, political, or other point" although one often finds somewhat
bizarre religious beliefs and practices presented with suspicious relish
(though Vance's sure touch avoids overt satire).

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 04:22:41 GMT
From: macleod@drivax.uucp (MacLeod)
Subject: Vance again

>>Jack Vance is a superb writer.  His characters are mostly flat.  His
>>plots are mostly unconvincing and frequently tedious.  If he has any
>>social, religious, political, or other point, it escapes me at the
>>moment.  But none of that matters, to some of us at least; that's not why
>>we read Jack Vance.
>>
>>He is a superb >writer<.  There aren't many people, living or dead, who
>>can put words together with his style and elegance.  His eccentric
>>cultures, worlds, and circumstances have almost no peers.  His subtlety
>>is amazing.

He is a superb stylist and a reasonably good writer.  All the things
mentioned in the first paragraph are part of writing, and he must be judged
on them all.

>I quite agree that Vance is a superb writer. (Though of course no amount
>of "putting words together" without a plot can produce an entertaining
>story: in fact Vance often has very effective or/and amusing plots.) The
>only two books by Vance that fall completely flat in my opinion are The
>Grey Prince and Wyst:Alastor 1716. The reason is that Vance in these two
>books does make known - in the case of Wyst at dreary interminable length
>- his views on some more or less political matters.

I thought that _The Grey Prince_ was a slight but sardonic bite back at the
Civil Rights efforts of the sixties and seventies.  Of course, his was a
politically unpopular point of view, so...

Michael Sloan MacLeod
amdahl!drivax!macleod

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 88 07:07:15 GMT
From: john@titan.nmt.edu (John Shipman)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>   [initial reference to Gene Wolfe deleted]
> Really?  Hmm... It's been highly recommended to me by a number of people. 
                 [_Book of the New Sun_]
> The impression I get from stuff about castles, palace torturers, etc., is
> yet another fantasy, and until now I hadn't heard anything to alter that
> impression.  It's actually SF?  I'll have to give it a try, I suppose.
> Though the idea of a main character who is a professional torturer is a
> bit off-putting.

Please, folks, don't be put off by the fact that the protagonist of this
series starts out as a torturer.  It wasn't his choice---it so happens that
in this world, the torturer's guild gets its new recruits by adopting young
children of their ``clients.''  It becomes obvious early on that Severian
is too compassionate to be a proper torturer.

It's NOT fantasy, either...no magic, just ``sufficiently advanced
technology.''  I would consider it hard SF---future history.

I think _The Book of the New Sun_ (all *five* volumes: _Shadow of the
Torturer_; _Claw of the Conciliator_; _Sword of the Lictor_; _Citadel of
the Autarch_; and _Urth of the New Sun_) is a great series, and here are
some reasons why I like it:

     1. The ornate language.  Not only does Wolfe paint beautifully, but he
uses a language that, for me, recalls the lapidary prose of Clark Ashton
Smith.  It's not for everybody, but I love it.
     2. Real characters with good character development.  Not for me
two-dimensional cardboard cutouts of Good and Evil like Lord Foul and
Michael V. Smith.  In the world of the New Sun, the characters are
motivated by the same forces that I see motivating people I've known---the
urge to survive (Agia is nasty, but she's just trying to get along
according to her ethos), curiosity (Severian just wants to find out what is
going on), lust for power (Typhon).
     3. Tight plotting.  There is very little filler.  Many other authors
irritate me with what seem like constant complications just for the sake of
putting some distance between the beginning and the end.  Severian's
travels are long, but every step is necessary.  After I finished the first
four books, I thought there were a few loose ends, but they were all
necessary for the fifth book.

In short, try this series!  I would, however, recommend that you wait until
you have all five books on hand (the fifth one should be out in paper soon,
neh?).

John Shipman
Zoological Data Processing
Socorro, New Mexico
USENET: ihnp4!lanl!unm-la!unmvax!nmtsun!john
CSNET: john@jupiter.nmt.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 22:07:27 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Federation World; Seven Realms

Sometimes I like to point out books that people might want to buy -- but
perhaps shouldn't.

Mild Spoilers.

"Federation World", by James White, is not connected to his Sector General
series.  The premise -- and it's the premise of an author who forgot to do
his arithmetic -- is that some Old Galactic types built a Dyson sphere with
about one billion times the surface area of Earth, and with mechanisms to
keep everyone living on it in comfort.  The Federation contacts new species
(including humanity) and moves almost their entire populations to the Dyson
Sphere.  The logic being that here there is enough room for as many species
as join to expand indefinitely while enjoying the prosperity needed to
advance as a culture.

(*My* arithmetic says that humanity alone would fill the place up within
about a thousand years.  Anyone else get significantly different results?)

That's prologue.  The rest is travelogue, as a pair of douty first-contact
specialists meet and deal with a succession of Strange Species.  The
travelogue part is actually readable, although it has nothing new to offer.
Give it two stars on the OR scale.

"Riddle of the Seven Realms", by Lyndon Hardy, is a sequel (mostly in the
sense of being set in the same universe) to the very good "Master of the
Five Magics" and the reasonably good "Secret of the Sixth Magic".  It's
pretty bad.  Whereas FW begins with a silly premise and then (by largely
ignoring it) becomes humdrum but unexceptionable, this book begins in a
reasonable (albeit unexciting) way and skids downhill.

Most of the rest is, again, travelogue.  This time our little band of heros
goes universe hopping.  Each universe operates under its own special laws,
and in each universe obsessing about those laws is the full-time occupation
of every inhabitant.  It reads very much like Piers Anthony.  The book has
a Wizard-of-Oz ending, with each of the protagonist making a little speach
about what s/he learned from the adventure.  Blech.  One star.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 23:57:16 GMT
From: kim@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn)
Subject: Name that Novel ...

I'm posting this for Jeff Marr here at Amdahl, who doesn't have direct net
access.  I'll pass any email replies on to him, or you can post any ideas
...

kim

> A Novel Question.
>
> I can't remember the author or title of a novel I once read. It was about
> a woman, and old man, and possibly one other, marooned, or maybe on some
> kind search mission, on a heavy gravity planet. The natives were human or
> humanoid, and at an approximate late-middle ages level(at least
> governmentally). There was a time limit to get off the planet because of
> heavy metal contamination.  The woman was less than pretty by
> contemporary standards, but on this planet she was considered a beauty.
> 
> Any ideas?

Amdahl Corp
M/S 249
1250 E. Arques Av
Sunnyvale, CA 94086
408-746-8462
UUCP:  kim@amdahl.amdahl.com
       {sun,decwrl,hplabs,pyramid,ihnp4,uunet,oliveb,cbosgd,ames}!amdahl!kim

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 19:35:44 GMT
From: Patrick Hoggard <NU043982@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: HELP

   Help! Can anyone with a long memory remember a story in which someone
wakes up from a dream, goes on with life, gets into big trouble, wakes up
(it turns out what he thought was real life was a dream), goes on with
life, gets into trouble, wakes up (ditto), ad infinitum, never knowing
whether his current experience is real or not?
   My guess is that the story was written by Robert Sheckley or maybe
Frederic Brown, whom I used to read a lot of a long time ago.

Pat Hoggard
nu043982@ndsuvm1.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 04:43:46 GMT
From: wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu (Bill Wyatt)
Subject: Re: Name that Novel ...

> I can't remember the author or title of a novel I once read. It was about
> a woman, and old man, and possibly one other, marooned, or maybe on some
> kind search mission, on a heavy gravity planet. The natives were human or
> humanoid, and at an approximate late-middle ages level(at least
> governmentally). There was a time limit to get off the planet because of
> heavy metal contamination.  The woman was less than pretty by
> contemporary standards, but on this planet she was considered a beauty.

Except for heavy gravity, this matches well with _The_Witling_, by Vernor
Vinge. The natives had certain senses called `renging' (telekinesis),
`senging' (sensing at a distance), and `kenging' (killing at a distance).
An interesting twist was the way in which renging still had to conserve
momentum, so that you couldn't just teleport anywhere on the planet, or
you'd go flying off at up to thousands of miles a second.

Bill Wyatt
UUCP:  {husc6,ihnp4,cmcl2,mit-eddie}!harvard!cfa!wyatt
ARPA:  wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu
       wyatt%cfa@harvard.harvard.edu
BITNET:  wyatt@cfa2

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 6 Jun 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 193

Today's Topics:

		   Films - Willow & Nightfall (6 msgs) &
                           Light Years (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 20:42:30 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>>"Siskbert" was the "dragon's" nickname.  It wasn't an "official" name.
>>It seemed fitting.  You may remember that the shark in Jaws was called
>>"Bruce."  This name never appeared officially, but the word got out.
>
>Aha!  That figures.  So in other words, all the brouhaha/cheering/bashing
>on the net about these nicknames isn't even in the movie, and has nothing
>whatsoever to do with it...

Haven't seen the movie yet, but I figured I could throw out a few things
that I picked up in the graphic novel. Things may have been different in
the movie.

In the GN, the critter is directly referred to as an "Eborsisk", with that
spelling. It isn't apparent that it is a polymorphed troll, but that could
be an inadequacy of the adaptation.

Someone mentioned Madmartigan's "spouting poetry and romance," which seemed
out of character. In the GN, he accidentally gets a dose of "essence of
heartbreak" that one of the brownies was carrying, which would explain his
behavior. I can see how the spilled powder would be easy to miss if they
used it in the movie.

Also, the scene in the castle with the stone people is prominent in the
graphic novel. I remember someone stating that it wasn't in the movie, and
it seems that Sorsha's "conversion" would be pretty baffling without it.

Last, a couple of spellings, if they're of interest: The little people are
Nelwyns. The big people are Daikinis. And the insult that the Daikinis use
to address the Nelwyns is "peck".

By the way, I really don't recommend the graphic novel. It's a *very*
choppy adaptation. They would've had to make it a least twice as long to
cover the movie in detail. You can see where scenes have been horribly
abbreviated or eliminated.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 13:28:47 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: NIGHTFALL !!Spoilers!! Alert! Alert!

otten@CINCOM.UMD.EDU ("NEIL OTTENSTEIN") writes:
> Last week I saw an advertisement for the movie version of "Nightfall".
> This movie seems to have had next to no publicity. I read a review of it
> a few days ago which described the film as absolutely terrible cinema.
> Has anybody here seen it?

***Spoiler Warning***

   I did, but then I'll see just about an SF film. This particular piece of
film "stars" David Birney as the astronomer Aton(Atan) and Sarah Douglas as
his ex-wife. I don't remember who played the blind prophet, but he was the
only actor who put some spark in his performance. The movie is only
marginally related to Asimov's story.
   The planet is in a system with three suns only. Aton, chief and only
astronomer for this village has been seduced away from his work by a woman
who walked in out of the desert after his wife left him. One of their
daughters builds a contraption which allows her to sense the motion of the
stars by sound. Technology on this planet is practically nil, though Aton
has a nice telescope. A blind prophet tells the people that the ninth
Nightfall is coming and only his Book of Illumination, which only he can
read, tells what will happen in exact detail. When Aton kills him later in
the film, the prophet moans that this wasn't in the book. There are two
rather pedestrian sex scenes thrown in and when Nightfall does finally
arrive most people do what comes naturally at night.
   Except for some nice commentary about fanatic religious beliefs and
where they can lead, the film is a waste. The last blow to Asimov's story
comes at the end when everyone who helped Aton build the shelter comes out
at night with these stones which give off a faint glow and stare up at the
stars and say how beautiful it is without feeling any ill effects.
   Humorous side note: Coming out of the theater the crowd was completely
disappointed. One college aged male looked at the poster which said "The
Greatest Science Fiction story of all time!" and then some magazine's name.
The disgruntled ticket-buyer said to his companion "They must have put that
on there as a joke!"

Ken Crist

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 00:43:08 GMT
From: simmons@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Gregory S. Simmons)
Subject: Re: NIGHTFALL

otten@CINCOM.UMD.EDU ("NEIL OTTENSTEIN") writes:
> Last week I saw an advertisement for the movie version of "Nightfall".
> This movie seems to have had next to no publicity.  I read a review of it
> a few days ago which described the film as absolutely terrible cinema.
> Has anybody here seen it?  Does anyone know how it came to be that the
> film was made?  Was Asimov given any say in the film?

Folks I'm sorry to say that I have seen this movie and only one thing can
be said about this movie, DO NOT GO TO SEE THIS MOVIE.  Notice the caps.

This movie was the worst movie I've ever seen, It sucked over and over.  It
was a very poor movie all around.

It's about a world which is about to undergo something called Nightfall,
that is to say, all three of its suns disappear and night falls.  Everybody
looks more or less like a roman-indian mix.  The plot sucks, direction
sucked, acting not good, and screen play sucked.  DO NOT SEE THIS MOVIE,
let it die a quick painless death.  It was like something they would show
to you in English class around 6-8th grade.  MY friend and I seriously
considered walking out on the movie, but it was a sunday and we had nothing
else to do.

DO NOT SEE NIGHTFALL, nominee for worst movie of decade, century,
millenium<?>

Greg Simmons
PO Box 3085
Norfolk VA 23514
simmons@xanth.cs.odu.edu 
simmons@xanth.UUCP       

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 21:03:24 GMT
From: liu@brillig.umd.edu (Yuan Liu)
Subject: NIGHTFALL -- A great movie

Personally, I think this movie has all the ingredients of being the best SF
movie ever:
    
   SEX:  How many SF movies you've seen have sex scenes in them?
         Not Star War(s), Close encounter of the third kind, Blade
         Runner, Alien(s), ET, just to name a few.
         So how can you pass this up?

   GORE: Have you ever wondered how someone would look when he/she had
         deliberately had his/her eyes pecked out by a couple of eagles?
         Well, stop wondering. Go see the movie.

   VIOLENCE: There's kidnapping, there's "sword" fight, and there is
         stabbing.  Best of all there is that incredible
         reflect-sunlight-into-your-assassin's-eyes-so-that-he-will-change-
         -his-mind trick.  How can you miss it?!
    
   And of course there is the most important category, the imaginations
that are presented:
    
      The five suns in the novel were changed to three bright suns and an
   invisible "dwarf sun". The three suns have different colors!!!!  What
   wonders me is that they made these suns looks just like three flood
   lights with color plates. Their technical team must be some genuine
   gurus.
       Although the dwarf sun is invisible, it can be detected by a
   fantastic instrument (that looks just like a piece of board with
   several pegs on it. I wonder how they did it). Best of all, you don't
   SEE the positions of the suns from this instrument, you HEAR them. Can
   you beat that!  What a vivid imagination about alien cultures!!

      The swords they used in the fight and the knife used in the stabbing
   are all made of some kind of crystals that seem to be stronger than
   steel. But those gurus made them look just like some cheap, woops, I
   mean earthly plastics. I wonder how they did it.

      The planet has such a highly developed culture that they have already
   transcended the meaningless materialistic needs and therefore live in
   small huts and everyone wears something that looks just like a piece of
   cloth.  This at least solves one of the problem mentioned in the novel.
   When nightfall comes, the civilization would not be ruined in fire,
   because there isn't much to burn.  Actually, I don't see what's lost
   even if the whole civilization died.  But then this just goes to show
   you how inadequately I understand these aliens.

      Just as a bonus for us who are dumb, I mean enthusiastic, enough to
   see the movie, a fairy tale was told that has nothing to do with
   nightfall.  It's a story about a snake princess who changed into a woman
   (what a rotten deal) so that she (it) could understand the love song
   sung by a bird, but then she (it) found out that the song was meant for
   his wife (which is the part that makes it a fairy tale), and she
   couldn't change back to her old slithering self.  What a tear-jerker.

      The best scene of all in the movie is THE END, I mean the one before
   that, where all the "good guys", i.e. those who followed that drunken,
   adulterating, murderous astronomer ( or was he an astrologist, I
   couldn't remember), stood outside, each held a piece of "crystal" that
   glows in the dark (although it look as if there is a light bulb in it,
   but that is impossible because they don't have, I mean don't need,
   electricity), and looked as if they were enjoying the sight of the
   starry night sky.  What an ingenious way to interprete total madness of
   alien minds!!

All in all, as you can see, this is a great movie.  So spare the money, or
if you don't have the money, go beg for it , or sell public domain
software. Just go see it.  Misery craves companion, uh I mean good things
should be shared.

Yuan Liu
liu@brillig.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 14:33:02 GMT
From: rwhite@netxcom.uucp (Royal White)
Subject: Re: NIGHTFALL

(Gregory S. Simmons) writes:
>Folks I'm sorry to say that I have seen this movie and only one thing can
>be said about this movie, DO NOT GO TO SEE THIS MOVIE.  Notice the caps.
>This movie was the worst movie I've ever seen, It sucked over and over.
>It was a very poor movie all around.
>
>It's about a world which is about to undergo something called Nightfall,
>that is to say, all three of its suns disappear and night falls.
>Everybofy looks more or less like a roman-indian mix.  The plot sucks,
>direction sucked, acting not good, and screen play sucked.  DO NOT SEE
>THIS MOVIE, let it die a quick painless death.  It was like something they
>would show to you in english class around 6-8th grade.  MY friend and I
>seriously considered walking out on the movie, but it was a sunday and we
>had nothing else to do.  DO NOT SEE NIGHTFALL, nominee for worst movie of
>decade, century, millenium<?>

I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This movie has absolutely nothing to do with Asimov's classic short story:
"Nightfall," except the title and basic premise. I strongly suggest that
the people who made this movie tried to bypass normal channels to get this
shown in the theater. It is pure and utter crap. It is at least as bad as
_Starship Invasions_ (uh-oh, I hope no one liked that one). The only good
thing about the film (in a twisted, sick sort of way) was that during the
second half of the film we (a group of six of us) were rolling in the isles
with laughter. It was so bad and so Freudian that we were constantly making
jokes and laughing loudly. The audience (about 1/3 full theater) was
laughing too. Someone in the back yelled "THIS MOVIE SUCKS" 3/4 of the way
thru it.  The audience cracked up. The worst part was we paid $6.00 on a
Friday night to see it. I could kick myself.

It gets my vote as WORST SCIENCE FICTION MOVIE OF ALL TIME!!!

Royal White Jr.
703-749-2384
uunet!netxcom!rwhite

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 17:45:12 GMT
From: gchamber@nfsun.uucp (glenn chambers)
Subject: Killer review of the movie Nightfall (minor spoilers)

In case you haven't heard yet, the movie titled 'Isaac Asimov's Nightfall'
is incredibly bad.  This is true both as an adaptation of the story and as
a free-standing movie (in my opinion).

The story, you may remember, was set in an essentially modern society (at
least modern at the time the story was written), and was basicly rational
(no magic, etc.)  The movie is set in a mock-primitive society, and has
major new-age mysticism components.  There are a number of scenes of
'adult' nature, involving sex and mutilation (not in the same scene,
fortunately).

The depth of my distaste for the movie may be influenced by the fact that I
was expecting something more like the treatment that was popular in
planetariums many years ago.  But I think that anyone who likes 'hard' SF
would react just as violently.

The movie reviewer for the Pittsburgh Press mentions casually in a recent
column that he heard from two people, "a reader and a friend", that the
movie was very bad.

Anyone else out there agree??

Glenn Chambers
Intelligent Technology, Inc.
Pittsburgh PA  15229.
(412) 931-7600

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 06:55:33 GMT
From: rissa@killer.uucp (Patricia O Tuama)
Subject: Re: Killer review of the movie Nightfall (minor spoilers)

gchamber@nfsun.UUCP (glenn chambers) writes:
>In case you haven't heard yet, the movie titled 'Isaac Asimov's Nightfall'
>is incredibly bad.  This is true both as an adaptation of the story and as
>a free-standing movie (in my opinion).
>
>The story, you may remember, was set in an essentially modern society (at
>least modern at the time the story was written), and was basicly rational
>(no magic, etc.)  The movie is set in a mock-primitive society, and has
>major new-age mysticism components.  There are a number of scenes of
>'adult' nature, involving sex and mutilation (not in the same scene,
>fortunately).

Glenn is absolutely 100% right.  This is a terrible terrible movie.  It's
filmed in extremely virile technicolor, the new age atmosphere is
suffocating, David Birney waltzes through the movie in a shaggy dog costume
(looking remarkably like Richard Gere in "King David").  People do strange
things for no reason at all, the mutilation scene is grotesque, the sex
scenes uninspired, and with the exception of a clever young female inventor
(who comes up with a device made out of seashells for listening to the
suns) there is no one particularily interesting or likable in the entire
movie.

"Nightfall" misses the whole point of Asimov's story and it is such a
disjointed collection of anthropological themes and cultural icons that it
can barely move.  Much of it appears to have been filmed at Paolo Soleri's
Arcosanti which, although it is a beautiful place, does nothing to relieve
that heavy sense of dread that covers the movie from start to finish.

Anyway, a 1.33801 on the Sid and Nancy scale.

Trisha

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 21:38:50 GMT
From: robynt@sco.com (Robyn Tarter)
Subject: _Light Years_

Saw advertisement for a new movie "from" Rene Laloux & Isaac Asimov, called
_Light Years_.  I don't know if they wrote it, produced it, or what, and
it's only running for a week at the local "artsy" theatre.  No local review
or credits listed in the ad.  Release date: 1988.

Anyone seen it?  Should I?

Robyn Tarter
408-476-3422
PO Box 43
Capitola CA 95010
robynt@sco.COM
...!{uunet,ihnp4,decvax!microsoft,ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!robynt

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 19:03:46 GMT
From: edg@pbhyg.pacbell.com (Elizabeth D. Gottlieb)
Subject: Re: _Light Years_

This was a BORING movie!  It's really slow, the animation is awkward, the
plot would be great for a twenty-minute cartoon; all in all, if you must
see this, take drugs.  It may improve the experience.

Libby Gottlieb

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 14:07:10 GMT
From: rwhite@netxcom.uucp (Royal White)
Subject: Re: _Light Years_

I have not seen this film myself, but friends of mine did. They said it was
a *good* film. The animation (it's an animated film) is not quite as good
as that of _Fantastic Planet_. The animator on _Fantastic Planet_ directed
or produced _Light Years_, I think, instead of animating. It sounds
interesting especially with the voices of so many top actors.  I suggest a
bargain matinee, if available.

Royal White Jr.
703-749-2384
uunet!netxcom!rwhite

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 22:26:30 GMT
From: reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov (Peter Reiher)
Subject: Re: _Light Years_

I saw it.  It's not very good.  The Asimov connection is pretty bogus.  The
film was based on a novel, which was adapted into a French screenplay, then
animated.  Asimov produced an English-language screenplay, with some help,
well after the film was completed.  The animation is poor, though some of
the visuals are striking.  The story is muddled, especially as Asimov (or
someone else who had a hand in the English language version) did a poor job
of conversion from the original language.  The story is not very original,
or otherwise interesting.  The vocal talent, though big-name (Glenn Close,
Jennifer Grey, Christopher Plummer), adds little.  SF film completists
should see it, others probably should skip it.

Peter Reiher
reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov
...cit-vax!elroy!jplpub1!jade!reiher

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 6 Jun 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 May 88 18:51:39 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>leonard@.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>First, the rape. This has been dealt with elsewhere, and I'll only
>>comment that many of the people I talked to about this finally agreed due
>>to her "upbringing" (doxy training) and her agent training she probably
>>*would* have the "lie back and enjoy it" attitude.
>
>So she'd have that attitude.  But what bothers some people is precisely
>that the heroine of the novel has such an attitude, not that there's no
>explanation for it in the novel, or that the explanation is unconvincing.
>Why create such a character at all?  There may be a convincing
>justification, but no one has bothered to give it.

   Here's my explanation; see what you think. Friday is an AP, an
artificial person. In the biological sense, this is purely beneficial, but
in the social sense, it's the albatross around her neck. She is a 2nd-class
citizen, raised as a virtual slave, with no rights. She is trained to be a
sex toy and a cheap tool for any use society chooses.  Like any slave, her
personality has taken damage from this treatment.
   The Friday we meet in the novel as it opens has partially overcome this
damage. By sheer ability and strength of character, she has become a free
person, and more: she is an exceedingly competent and capable individual.
But the scars are still there. She has conquered the outside world, but not
her inner demons. What she most wants, most needs, is acceptance and love.
She still feels like an outsider, a pariah, despite her great material
success. The trauma of being raised as a *thing* instead of a person still
haunts her. At a deep level, she feels like she's conning the world, only
pretending to be the fine person she has become. She has no sense of her
own worth.
   The rape scene is one of a number of places in the novel that
illustrates this. Of course she's not visibly traumatized by rape. She's
been raped many times, and abused in countless other ways. She is immune to
the horrible psychological damage of rape because it had *already been
done*, many years ago, and has not healed. Her psyche has already been bled
nearly dry; how much more effect would one rape have?
   We see this again in Friday's relationship with her adopted family in
New Zealand. Their apparent acceptance of her as a human being blinds her
to what's really happening. So valuable is this acceptance and love to her
that despite her extreme competence and intelligence, she hides the truth
from herself until it becomes absolutely impossible to do so. Everywhere in
the book, when Friday is dealing with the *business* of life, the hard
practical matters, she is shown as incredibly strong and able, but when it
comes to human relationships and human emotions, she is a baby.
   _Friday_ is the story of Friday finding herself, discovering and
learning to believe in her true worth as a human being. That is what she
was robbed of by her upbringing, and that is the demon that drives her
throughout the book. It is only when she finally understands that someone
else *loves* her, for herself, not merely respects her for what she can do,
that she is able to exorcise the damage from her past.  Like Heinlein's
juveniles, _Friday_ is very much a story of growing up, and becoming fully
human.

>>Secondarily, they objected to her being shown settling down to raise a
>>family at the end. "She's oh-so-competent, and he has her get married and
>>raise kids!!!" I have *voilent* objections to this attitude. What such
>>people are, in essence, doing is flaming Heinlein for not being
>>"ideologically correct".
>
>Do you really think it's wrong to flame authors for their politics
>no matter what those politics are?

   Consider Friday's decision in the light of what I've said.  Succeeding
in a material sense is easy for her, a lesson long digested.  It is loving
*herself* that is her ultimate challenge. Only when she can find love for
her from others can she learn this lesson, and only by learning it can she
truly believe that others can love her.
   _Friday_ is a story of ultimate strength, a story of a person born with
every card stacked against her, who nevertheless succeeds not only in
overcoming the society that torments her, but in overcoming the damage
which that society has wrought upon her own soul. It is that soul that
Heinlein is interested in. He doesn't bother to tell us the story of her
worldly success except as a couple of casual flashbacks, because that isn't
the major challenge Friday has to overcome. Her innate abilities are easily
equal to that task. But she's no better equipped to know how to love and
respect herself than anyone else is, and that challenge is her real story,
and the one Heinlein chooses to tell.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!aurora!barry
barry@ames-aurora.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 88 04:13:56 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Heinlein in Dimension

tiedeman@acf3.UUCP (Eric S. Tiedemann) writes:
>g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>>What vindictive Panshin review?  If you mean _Heinlein in Dimension_ it
>>is rather weird to call it vindictive.  It is quite true that Heinlein
>>objected strongly to it after it came out, but the reasons had to do with
>>what he felt was an invasion of privacy.
>
>Is this true?  What did Heinlein actually say or do?  Where is it
>documented?

Yes, it's true.  Heinlein had some rather nasty things to say about Panshin
and absolutely refused to have anything to do with him.  Actually, as I
recall, Heinlein wouldn't talk to Panshin during the writing of the book,
which is one of the reasons Alex had to really scrounge for sources.  As to
documentation, I haven't the slightest idea at this point.  There were some
articles in fanzines, and some ripples in the prozines.  I know about it
because I was reasonably well acquainted with Alex at the time and fairly
close friends with the Advent people (mostly the Wood's) who published
HinD.  But it all happened twenty years ago, and I wasn't keeping track of
it for posterity.  I never knew Heinlein, but I knew plenty of people who
did know him, so my account is probably fairly close to the facts of the
matter.  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 13:02:11 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@mtune.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

Much as I hate to get involved in this argument, I have to agree that
Heinlein's "maxim" that "an armed society is a polite society" doesn't seem
to be reflected in the reality of mobs, secret societies, and gangs.  If we
agree that there are a lot of weapons in inner-city areas, does this mean
everyone there, or even a majority, are polite?

And as for his apparent contention that public whippings are a good way to
enforce laws (STARSHIP TROOPERS), I would point the reader to the current
legal system in Iran and other countries which use public whippings.  The
conclusion is left as an exercise.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP:	mtune!mtgzy!ecl or ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA:	ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 88 00:03:13 GMT
From: jvh@clinet.fi (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>jvh@clinet.FI (Jussi-Ville Heiskanen) writes:
>>In such "polite societies" ganging up would be severely frowned upon, and
>>likely as not, people would SPONTANEOUSLY get together and teach the guys
>>a short lesson in dying. This certainly was mentioned in Moon Is A Harsh
>>Mistress, in the guise of a dirtside mob-leader swiftly being given a lot
>>of room to operate--on the other side of the air-lock...
>
>>As for societies in which duelling is actively--even though covertly--
>>encouraged (Beyond This Horizon) a'la Code Duello, a bully would be
>>harassed by "men of honor" (cf. Cyrano de Bergerac of the play, he WAS
>>both harassed, and clearly deficient in the area of courtesy, if not
>>wit).
>
>You may be right -- but I don't think the historical record bears you out.
>In Europe and the United States of two centuries ago, the "men of honor"
>were quite often "bullies".  There was a class of tiger duellists, men who
>were good duellists, had a taste for blood, and who provoked duels (their
>honor was very easily touched.)
  
As a matter of fact, I am right. At least in the limited sphere of BTH and
MiaHM as fictional realities go. History is great at telling us what is
possible. (Few impossible events in history, that I know of. :-) But when
the future, or even just a fictional reality is to be charted, history
needs to be augmented with balanced evaluation of differing parameters. In
Beyond This Horizon there are a multitude of differences to the original
Code Duello times (which were not quite so bad as you make them out, some
people did follow "noblesse oblige").  First there is the society.
Basically the ideal bureaucratical socialism, a working one at that. In
that society it would not have been impossible for the officials to keep
order.  Duelling was mostly a cultural thing in it, and wearing a brassard
was sacrosanct, even if you killed an armed man, who wore one it would be
murder, and swiftly dealt with by the officials. No feudalism type
disregard for common people's lives. Also, it would have been impossible
for any Bullies to really live to a ripe age, for ray-weapon types do not
allow for too many duels ending in mere "wounds" or honorable draws after
some time of resultless sparring... Fight in a lot of duels, and you are
dead, no matter how fast you are.

>It is all very well to talk about the good citizens getting together and
>teaching the gang a lesson.  I don't think it works that way very well.
>Look at the Wyoming range wars, for example.  There was almost no law, and
>there was a proliferation of banditry (the legal system, such as it was,
>had pretty much fallen into the hands of the outlaws.)  There was
>vigilante justice; however the outlaw reign of terror was broken by hired
>killers.  The predator, the bandido, always has the advantage over the
>good citizen; the predator devotes his time and efforts to conflict and
>violence, the good citizen is concerned mostly with making a living and
>other pacific activities.

I think you are a bit on the wrong tack here. I don't think this relates to
Moon is a Harsh Mistress at all. First of all, there was nowhere to hide in
Luna City. Second of all, all advantages are totally nullified, when there
are airlocks everywhere to be used. Third of all, almost all of the "good
citizens" were either "bandidos" or progeny of same. And fourth of all,
when the colony started, the proportion of guards to prisoners was quite
different to that of lawmen to banditos in the west. And when one has to
rely on such acute necessities as breathing air, and the good will of
others to possibly lend one the same when in desperate need, ones ties to
the community would have been MUCH stronger than in the average
frontier-american town. Taking all these parameters into account, the
chances of the stabilization of the kind of societal configuration that we
have in MiaHM, are quite good.

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Hakaniemenkuja 8A27
00530 Helsinki, FINLAND
+358-0-719755 (sic!)   
USENET: mcvax!santra!clinet.jvh
INTERNET:  jvh@clinet.fi      

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 02:04:39 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism

ewa@silvlis.COM (Ernest Adams) says:
> The man was fixated on women's reproductive capacity.  He was willing to
> grant them anything else: brains, courage, strength, whatever, but in the
> last analysis, Robert Heinlein saw women as producers of babies, not as
> full partners in human society.  This view expressed itself in his
> writing and damaged the quality of his female characters.

Some prime taboo statements in feminist literature:

   1) Women have babies, and men don't: Obvious sexism, totally irrelevant.
Everybody knows that there's no difference between men and women.

   2) Children have the right to receive an upbringing suitable for making
them productive members of society: What hogwash. The little bastard did me
out of a month's wages when I had to take sick leave to have the wretched
creature, and besides, women have rights, too, huh? Let'em rot over at Mrs.
Espanoza's Day Care Center (who cares if he knows more Spanish than English
now?).  I don't have time for the damned rug-rat.

Let's fact the obvious: Women DO have children, and women DO require some
special privileges from society in order to accomplish this task (maternity
leaves, flexible scheduling, etc.). These privileges are not being granted
to women at this time, but that doesn't undo the fact that childbearing
implies certain inconveniences that men don't have to undergo.  Heinlein's
recognition of this unpleasant fact didn't mean that he was sexist --
merely that he was a rational, thinking human being.

With that out of the way, I DO think that Heinlein bordered upon the
irrational at times regarding The Sanctity of Child Bearing. If I recall
correctly, he never had children, perhaps because of his age at the time of
marriage, and that may have had something to do with it (many childless
people wax romantic about the Divine Task of Raising Children).

> Heinlein was entertaining, enjoyable, even insightful.  He was *not*
> a great writer.

Now, that's a statement I can agree with. Heinlein was one of the greats of
the field of science fiction, but that was NOT because of his superb
writing style or exquisite command of the English language or anything of
that sort.  His greatness is more of the sort that you mention.... being
entertaining, enjoyable, insightful, and willing to tackle controversial
subjects. The last alone is enough to make his contribution to the science
fiction world unforgettable (hoo boy, SiaSL).

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
{cuae2,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 19:12:58 GMT
From: galloway@elma.epfl.ch
Subject: Becky Vesant's location

Does anybody have either a reference from Stranger to show this, or any
idea why both Herb Caen and whatever incompetent (4 errors in about that
many sentences) who wrote the Newsweek Heinlein obit think that Becky was
based in San Francisco?  An admittedly quick skim of the book for sections
in which she was refered to came up with only one reference to her
location; when Jubal was trying to find out how to get around the flapper
system to call Douglas, the network head refers him to Becky, giving Jubal
her full name and that her phone is listed in the "Washington exchange".
Now, somehow I don't think that San Francisco numbers would be listed
there.

tyg
tyg@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 88 05:26:09 GMT
From: roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

Uhmmm, I'm not adding anything to this discussion because I'm shocked and
stunned.  Apparently, most of the readers (who seem to be male) of sf here
seems to accept the statement,"

"Anyone one with a healthy emotional makeup will find rape no harder
to take than any other kind of assault."

I'd really like to asky WHY do people think this.  Because it has a lot to
do with the believability of Heinlein's character and why people may think
he is sexist and why other people deny that.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 21:54:57 GMT
From: tiedeman@acf3.nyu.edu (Eric S. Tiedemann)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism

ewa@silvlis.COM (Ernest Adams) writes:
>We might as well face it: Lazarus Long *is* Robert Heinlein, for practical
>purposes.  He's a mouthpiece for Heinlein's Nietzschean theories.  Into
>this character's mouth he places such words (quotes are approximate) as:
[the "women as baby-factories" quotes]

"Lazarus Long *is* Robert Heinlein" won't wash--there are too many
counter-examples.  Too bad, I would like to have such a convenient model of
Heinlein.  I'm intrigued by your description of Heinlein's theories as
"Nietzschean".  I certainly see deliberate Nietzschean allusions in his
writing.  Could you be more explicit about where you see such?  For
instance, do you consider the aphorisms you quote Nietzschean?  Could you
provide some references in Nietzsche's works that support that
interpretation?

Best,

Eric

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 6 Jun 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 195

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Conventions (4 msgs) &
                                  Supermen

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 13:02:27 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Boskone XXVI in '89 (Here's the information)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>   I'm a little embarassed to admit this, but I seem to have lost my
>Boskone XXVI membership request form. Could someone send me the
>information via e-mail, or even better, a copy of the form by paper mail?

  Hi folks. convention-boy is here again. I found my membership form, so I
figured I'd post the information. Ready?

When and where: January 27-29, 1989, at the Marriott and Sheraton Tara
hotels, in Springfield, Massachusetts (exit 6 off the Pike, if you're
familiar with the Pike). These two hotels are connected via a shopping mall
in the middle, so you never have to go outside.

Guest of Honor: Tim Powers
Official Artist: James Gurney

Membership limit: Not announced on this form, which I got during Boskone
last year, but it says it "will be limited based on our experience at
Boskone XXV." I think this means it'll be around 2,000, but I'm not
responsible for it.

Pay by: Check, payable to Boskone 26. Or MasterCard/Visa, include card
number and expiration date.

Tell them: Name, address, city, state, zip. Whether you wish to help at
Boskone (gophers get great T-Shirts for a mere 8 hours slave labor.
Working the con is really a lot of fun, and they're not paying me to say
this).

Address: The New England Science Fiction Association, Inc. (NESFA)
         Box G, MIT Branch
         Cambridge, MA  02139-0910

You can also request information on: Exhibiting work at the Art Show,
Purchasing table(s) in the Hucksters' Room, Program Book advertisement
rates, Children's activities, the NESFA Filksong contest, Joining NESFA,
and the ever-popular "Other".

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Boskone or NESFA. I'm just posting this
since it seems like the kind of thing people on the net would be interested
in. If any of this information is incorrect, blame them, not me, since I've
taken it directly from the membership form.

And I'm still willing to try to organize an excursion of sf-lovers folks,
or at least finding out who's going to be attending, so contact me if you
have any interest.

Pete Granger
716 Chelmsford St.
Apt. 203
Lowell, MA 01851
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 88 21:42:12 GMT
From: wabbit@lakesys.uucp (Tim Haas)
Subject: X-Con 12 Convention

				 X-Con 12

X-Con is Milwaukee's first and foremost Science Fiction Convention, now in
it's twelfth year. It is being held June 10-12, 1988 at the Red Carpet Inn,
4747 S. Howell Ave., Milwaukee, WI.

Our Guests of Honor are:
   Somtow Sucharitkul  -  Author GoH
   Bruce Pelz          -  Fan GoH
   Wilson 'Bob' Tucker -  First Fandom GoH

Mailing Address:
   X-Con, Ltd.
   P.O. Box 7
   Milwaukee, WI 53201

Volunteers are always needed for Gophers, Badgers, and Security work.

This year we are having an Ice Cream Social / Meet the Pros on Friday eve.
The cost is $3.75 (all-you-can-eat) with part of the proceeds going to the
American Diabetes Association.  We are also sponsoring a blood drive this
year.

Huckster Info: 
   Lon Levy
   P.O. Box 1505
   Milwaukee, WI 53201-1505
   (414) 444-8888

Art Show:
   Unconventional Art Exhibitions, Inc
   c/o Giovanna Fregni
   2104 W. Juneau Ave, Milwaukee, WI 53233-1119
   (Please enclose SASE along with requests for info.)

Program Book Ads: for info, write to X-Con Mailing Address.

Masquerade Info: Nancy Mildbrant, c/o X-Con.

In addition to all of the above, we will of course be continuing our video
rooms (yes, that's plural), filking, dance, and our usual opulent consuite,
& whatever other silliness we come up with and maybe some that you suggest.

If you wish to be put onto our mailing list for the second Progress Report,
E-mail your name and address to me (lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu)
or write to our address above.

I am the Security Chief for the Con, and will be able to pass your
questions, comments, or info requests to the appropriate people.

Timothy Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233
(414) 344-6988
UUCP: {...rutgers,ames,ucbvax} !uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit   
Inet: lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu
      ...uunet!marque!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 88 11:16:00 GMT
From: U00254@hasara5.bitnet ("Jacqueline Cote")
Subject: WorldCon 1990, 2nd time of sending the ge. info file

Nothing much has changed the last time I send this file. The "tourism" bit
is still not ready, I haven't got the time. Does anyone in Europe know if
there are any conferences scheduled for this period, as some Americans
would like to seize the opportunity and combine work with pleasure.

				CONFICTION
				 WORLDCON
				   1990
		       THE HAGUE -- THE NETHERLANDS
			    23 - 27 AUGUST 1990

		 THE 48TH WORLD SCIENCE FICTION CONVENTION
		NETHERLANDS CONGRESS CENTRE (CONGRESGEBOUW)
			     (23-27 AUG. 1990)

GUESTS OF HONOUR :
   Joe Haldeman
   Wolfgang Jeschke
   Harry Harrison

FAN GUEST OF HONOUR :
   Andrew Porter

TOASTMISTRESS :
   Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

POSTAL ADDRESS :
   WorldCon 1990
   P.O. BOX 95370
   2509 CJ  The Hague
   The Netherlands

Important:
For an e-mail address :

see a previous posting or request the following from CSNEWS@MAINE ( in
inter- active 'send message' mode) :

SENDME WORLDCON CSNOTICE FROM CSBB     (Rem : BITNET only)

Addresses of Local Agents :

AUSTRALIA 

  Justin Ackroyd
  GPO Box 2708 X
  Melbourne 3001

SWEDEN
   Andreas Bjorklind
   Erikshallsgatan 16A
   S-151 46 Sodertjalje

   Carina Skytt
   Lundbygatan 36
   S-151 46 Sodertalje

BELGIUM
  Ronald Grossey
  Bouwhandelstraat 37
  2200 Borghout

CANADA

  Yvonne & Lloyd Penney
  P.O. Box 186, Station 'M'   
  Toronto, Ontario M6S 4T3

UNITED KINGDOM
   Colin Fine
   28 Abbey Road
   Cambridge CB5 8HQ

FINLAND

  Toni Jerrman                             
  Viljelijantie 4-6 D-103
  00410 Helsinki

UNITED STATES
   Marc s. Glasser
   P.O. Box 1252, Bowling Green Station
   New York, NY 10274

   David Schlosser
   6620 Hazeltine Avenue 9
   Van Nuys, CA 91405

FRANCE                                     
  Jean-Pierre Moumon & Martine Blond 
  Villa Magali Chemin Calabro
  8316 La Valette-du-Var

ITALY
  Patrizia Thiella                         
  Via Novara 3
  20089 Rozzano (MI)                       

WEST-GERMANY
   Peter Herber
   Hofrichterstrasse 13
   5000 Koln 80

JAPAN

  Masamichi & Michiko Osako                
  523, 1-5-11, Inaba, Higashiosaka
  Higashiosaka 578

YUGOSLAVIA
   Damir Coklin
   Pregradska 4
   41000 Zagreb

NORWAY
  Johannes Berg
  Tuenger Alle 10
  0374 Oslo 3

ConFiction offers you two sorts of membership : Attending and Supporting.
Either choice entitles you to voting rights for the Hugo Award and for the
site election for 1993 (by mail or at the convention itself), of all the
Progress Reports, any Newsletter appearing after you have joined, the
programme book and any post-convention publication. An Attending Membership
also buys you the right to attend ConFiction and all the programmes
therein, including the meetings of the World Science Fiction Society
business meetings.  As a Supporting member, you may convert to an Attending
member at any time by paying the difference between an Attending and
Supporting membership.

For children under 14 in 1990; children under the age of 3 have free
admission. Children's admission may only be purchased in combination with
an Attending membership. Children under the age of 14 have no rights to
vote on selection or Hugo's, but children over 3 (in 1990) are entitled to
any publication (and to attending the con).

(Editor's note : rates haven't changed ( 16-2-88 ) as far as *I* know,
since the dollar hasn't changed THAT much since November)

ALL membership payments must be made payable to :

STICHTING WorldCon 1990
P.O. BOX 95370
2509 CJ  The Hague

The organization accepts Access, MasterCard and EuroCard. Please, make out
your payments ( by international money order, or credit card) in Dutch
currency only (Dfl). We do prefer payment by credit card, thus avoiding the
rather expensive banking conversion rates. Alternatively payments may also
be made through your agent in local currency (see above list).  For people
in (European) countries with GIRO accounts :

GIRO account 237884 (to be credited to : Stichting WorldCon 1990, The
Hague, The Netherlands)

Dutch members can also use the (AMRO) bank account 482688041 ( credited to
: see GIRO account)

Please do NOT send your membership application to U00254 @ HASARA5, but to
the listed address, plus the appropriate admission fee.  Any applications,
directed via the e-mail address will be DELETED!!!

Some general info:

A experienced Dutch Tour Operator (Convention Travel International), with
an excellent reputation and co-operating with the Congress Building, will
deal with hotel and travel organizations. For the North-American members
will be served by 'Ask Mr Foster' in liaison with Convention Travel
International.

For other particulars (transport arrangements, customs, etc.) I refer to
the organization and its publications.

In due time ( a few days from now) ""tourist"" info will be send as well.
The Netherlands is a FUN/FANtastic country to visit. More particulars in
later postings......

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 88 11:06:00 GMT
From: U00254@hasara5.bitnet ("Jacqueline Cote")
Subject: WorldCon 1990, 2nd time of sending

For the second time around : this file. Nothing important in the info has
changed.

IMPORTANT

ConFiction --- WorldCon 1990 --- The Hague, The Netherlands, now has an
OFFICIAL e-mail address.

The address :

BITNET : U00254@HASARA5
UUCP   : mcvax!hasara5.bitnet!u00254
DECNET : SARA5::U00254
ARPA   : U00254@HASARA5.BITNET
       : U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@MCVAX.CWI.NL

Addresses have been tested. In case of a problem : route via the MCVAX
(either for UUCP or ARPA), the MCVAX is standing next to the HASARA5 VAX
(or so I'm told), so that should work....

Postal address, general info + tourist information will follow in separate
files. This file will be re-posted every two months, the other files will
be re-posted every 3 months (postal address + general info) or 4 months
(tourist info + extended info). As 1990 approaches, the frequency of
re-posting may increase.

DISCLAIMER :

I am **NOT** a member of the organizing committee and am **NOT**
responsible for the program/organization/etc. of ConFiction. I only act as
an e-mail go-between. I **DO** however have "official" backing of the
organizing committee, I've discussed this with them, they've supplied me
with info and I guarantee that any e-mail sent to me (see rules below) will
be forwarded to the chairman of the committee (Kees van Toorn). I cases of
doubt/emergency I will contact him by phone.

GOAL/PURPOSE of this venture :

A) To provide the SF community with up-to-date info, general info,
addresses and tourist info of the 1990 WorldCon. 

For BITNET users : I will open a CSNOTICE at CSNEWS@MAINE. All files will
be send to this Server also, and can be obtained by sending a MESSAGE
(interactive 'send message' mode) to CSNEWS@MAINE with the following
contents :

SENDME WORLDCON CSNOTICE FROM CSBB

The file will be send to you in NETDATA format (use 'RL' (IBM) or 'RECEIVE'
(VAX) or somesuch). PLEASE, don't ask me to assist you with this server, as
I don't have the time to help you (requests to bitbucket), the server
responds to 'HELP', 'INFO' or try 'DIR * * FROM PUBLIC' (messages only).

B)  As a MAILBOX for questions etc.

Most importantly : changes of address, verification of your membership (in
case you haven't heard anything for months), suggestions, minor/major
disasters etc.

*** RULES OF CONDUCT *** and WHAT I WILL DO

A) Rules of conduct.

   Clearly state in the subject line of your message : WORLDCON. Optional :
   your own subject. E.g. :

   Subject: WORLDCON
   Subject: WORLDCON, change of address
   Subject: WORLDCON, Membership verification

   Etc.

   PLEASE NOTE :

   I CANNOT guarantee that your message will escape oblivion if you DO NOT
   include 'WORLDCON' in your subject line!

   Keep your messages/requests short and to-the point. DO NOT send lengthy
   essays via the NET, send those via slow mail, in order to avoid undue
   pressure on my node (AND **** MY MAILBOX !!!! ****).

   PLEASE don't ask me to become your pen-pal. I LOVE writing long letters
   and such, but I already have SIX e-mail penpals and I do not have the
   time to write to more..... sorry.....

B) WHAT I WILL DO.

   All mail will be dumped to I) 3."5 disk II) hardcopy. So it's imperative
   that you include the subject line. The disk is a back-up, the
   hard-copies will be frequently send to the chairman of WorldCon ( at
   least once aweek).  In case of an 'emergency' I will contact the
   organization by phone.  As long as the number of letters is relatively
   small (less than, say, 15 aweek), I will acknowledge receipt of your
   message. As soon as this quotum is exceeded (I will give due warning),
   no more acknowledgements will be send, as this sort of thing is done
   during office hours, and I would *hate* to explain this little venture
   to my boss :-).

Important:

Be SURE to include an e-mail address that has been tested (preferably from
a BITNET site), I'm quite good at routing, but I'm only an astronomy Ph.D.
student, and no net-God.....  People on nodes like '.SPAN' : please include
the most recent routing to/from a BITNET site.

For more info : see the other messages...

WE HAVE EVERY INTENTION OF MAKING CONFICTION A BIG SUCCESS, PLEASE HELP US
TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITIES!!!!

Jacqueline Cote (M.Sc.)
University of Amsterdam
Astronomical Institute

The address :

BITNET : U00254@HASARA5
UUCP   : mcvax!hasara5.bitnet!u00254
DECNET : SARA5::U00254
ARPA   : U00254@HASARA5.BITNET
       : U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@MCVAX.CWI.NL

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 22:17:01 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Superman

Richard Harter writes:
>Human babies are as big as they can be; they can barely get out -- indeed
>sometimes they can't. They are born before fetal development[...]  our
>hypothetical race the process of reproduction would be less hazardous and
>inconvenient and that the young would be born in a state much more able to
>fend for themselves.

Humans have neotenous development of this sort for very specific reasons.
You definitely cannot just do away with it by a more clever design without
losing some of the things that we currently consider to make us human. This
doesn't necessarily apply to whatever our *next* stage of development might
be, but it does mean that, without neoteny, those creatures would be very
strange to us.

You refer indirectly to some of this, but at the risk of explaining the
obvious: the baby's head needs to be big. It's already as large as it can
get. If it were any larger, birth would be impossible. If women's hips got
wider, it would interfere with their locomotion.  If you entertain notions
like immobile women giving birth, or babies that can *only* be born of
machine rather than woman, then that fits into the category I mention
above, of appearing "other than human", at least in a minor sense.

Also, the greatly extended period of helplessness of babies and children is
essential for the flexible learning that is so characteristically human.
For a kid to be born fully functional would mean losing the flexibility of
learning of language, perception, social interaction, etc. Such things
would need to be pre-programmed, which, while imaginable and perhaps even
useful at some future point, again is even more significantly "other than
human".

"So what?" , you may ask...we're talking about supermen, not man!  Yes, but
it bears pointing out, because usually we like to think of supermen as
being human plus extra features, not just non-human.

How would you feel about producing a new species *right now* that was
essentially non-human, but unquestionably superior to humans? Wouldn't you
feel threatened by it? No? You sure? Even though odds are that it could
totally displace the human race? Humans might become extinct within one
generation. Not as much fun a thought as the "humans plus extra features"
line of thought.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
***********************

1,,
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Date: Mon, 6 Jun 88 09:26:05 EDT
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*** EOOH ***
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 88 09:26:05 EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #196
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 6 Jun 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 196

Today's Topics:

		      Miscellaneous - Hugos (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 00:54:23 GMT
From: kjm@xyzzy.uucp (Usenet Administration)
Subject: Why you should support the Other Forms Hugo

A Simple Analysis of The Current Other Forms Nominees

It seems likely that Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons's excellent story
_Watchmen_ is likely to win a Hugo at Nolacon this year. I have no
complaints with this possibility, as I personally consider _Watchmen_ to be
one of the most exceptional works of science fiction in recent years.
However, it is not going to win the Hugo for Best Novel; instead, the
category for which it has been nominated is "Best Other Form".
 
The Other Form category is a hodgepodge, by necessity, of works of various
natures. The nominations this year included mostly prose works --_The
Essential Ellison_, Ellison's _I, Robot_, and _Wild Cards volumes I-III_.
It also included two other works, _Watchmen_ and _Cvlture Made Stvpid_.
Apparently, two other high plced finishers were "The NESFA shaft" and the
Elric costume which won "Best in Show" at Conspiracy.
 
What is the common connection between these nominations? None of them fit
into the regular categories. I think it is worth trying to figure out
exactly why each of these is legitimately a nominee for "Other Forms" and
not one of the other categories.
 
The simplest to understand is _Culture Made Stupid_. This is a humor book.
It is not non-fiction, since it is chock full of deliberately untrue
"facts" and is presented as a parody of non-fiction works. (Its 1985
brother, _Science Made Stupid_ was nominated, and received, the Hugo in
that category, awkwardly. Jeff Copeland, who helped compile the nominations
and count the votes, had explained that in 1986, the only category in which
it could be nominated was non-fiction, and it received too many votes to
just ignore.) It cannot be considered for the fiction categories for two
reasons: It is not a narrative in any conventional sense; and for its
effect it relies heavily upon illustration, not prose. Unless you want to
lump it under "Best Semi- prozine" (which would make it the first strong
contender Locus has ever had), it has to go into Other Forms.
 
    Next easiest is Harlan Ellison's screenplay to the unproduced film
version of _I, Robot_. It isn't a novel, although it's about as long as
one, since the form of the play is long-established to be something other
than a novel.
    Actually, I would favor dumping this in with the "dramatic
presentations", since a play or a screenplay is, in my mind, a drama just
as much as a staged work. However, "presentation" implies "having actors"
or "being performed", so we'll let this one slide into the "Other Forms"
category and not complain about it being "ostracized" into a
ghetto-category.
 
    Third is _The Essential Ellison_. Again, this book is not a novel,
although at 1000 pages it is easily long enough; it is not non-fiction,
since it is comprised of a large number of short stories (and screenplays).
The collection *as a whole* is something new, since it presents an overview
of the career. It is notable as a collection, and apparently, quite a
number of people consider giving to it a Hugo worthwhile.
 
    Forth, there are the _Wild Cards_ books. These are a much stranger
case. An arguement can be made that _Aces High_ and _Jokers Wild_ are both
novels (a strong case can also be made for considering them as one novel),
with a large number of authors and point-of-view characters, but the
arguement can be made that they are not novels, as well. And that arguement
cannot be made for the first volume at all.
    There is no narrative that continues through the first book; while
there are characters who appear frequently throughout, there is none who
could be called a protagonist, nor in fact is there one who appears in
every story; there is, in short, no unification of the book as a novel.
Neither, however, is the book merely a collection of short stories that
should be considered on their own the way in the way that a _Universe_
collection is; the aggregate effect of the volume is greater than the
effects of the individual stories, since they illuminate, underscore, and
to an extent explicate each other.
    (The later volumes can be said to be an extension of the first volume,
as longer stories that follow where the first volume physically ends.)
    It is this particular interrelationship between the stories that the
nominators have picked up upon: _Wild Cards_ is a book that is something
other than a novel, and something other than a bunch of independent short
stories.
 
    _Watchmen_ seems to be the greatest creator of disappointment in this
category. I have not done a word count of the book, so I will take other
people's word for it that _Watchmen_ has a sufficient number of them to
qualify as a novel on that score. It was published in a single volume, and
has a continuous narrative throughout, with a small number of
easily-identified "central characters", who are fictional. In short, it is
a novel.
    Except, of course, that it isn't, any more than the Ellison screenplay
is; it, too, has central characters, a continous narration, and a lot of
words--but it's a screenplay, not a novel, and has been recognized as such.
Or consider _Robocop_--it has a plot and characters, but it's a dramatic
presentation, not a novel. Consider _Only Apparently Real_, which has a lot
of words, and a central character (Phillip K.  Dick) and talks about a lot
of fictional things--but it's non- fictional, not a novel.
    Or consider Gardner Dozois. He writes a lot of words, is his own
central character, and publishes things in single volumes. But, of course,
he's an editor.
    I think my point, though overstated, is clear: _Watchmen_, though it
does many of the things a novel does, it not a novel. It is a New Thing, a
"graphic novel". It is not prose, and should not be considered with prose
works.
 
    Why, then, do so many people seem upset that _Watchmen_ was not
nominated as a novel? I can guess at a few reasons:
 
    First, they oppose the entire category of "Other Forms". They see it as
a mish-mash, comparing apples to oranges. Well, of course it is; all
categories are necessarily artificial constructs. Some of them are better
established than others, but notice the differences between the
    Best Fan Writer nominees--Chuq von Rospach, who edits and writes a
review fanzine is probably up against Arthur Hlavaty, who publishes an
excellent quarterly diary zine and hundreds of one-sheet apa zines;
    or Best Non-fiction, which last year pitted _Trillion Year Spree_
against _Micheal Whelan's Worlds of Wonder_ against _The Dark Knight
Returns_, thus demonstrating that WSFS believes that Batman is a real
person;
    or Best Novel, where:
    a fantasy set on the American Frontier (_Seventh Son_) is competing
with a space-opera with talking dolphins (_Uplift War_), a cybernetic
hardboiled detective novel (_When Gravity Fails_), and a story of Christ's
return to resurrect the dying Sun millions of years in the future (_Urth of
the New Sun_).
    The _Other Forms_ category is a catch-all, but that doesn't mean it's a
worthless category. It is designed to give recognition to things which fall
between the very wide cracks in the nominations.
 
    Second, thet might oppose making the award because those items
nominated should be forced to compete with the novels.
    I think that it is unreasonable to expect _Watchmen_ to compete against
novels by Card, Wolfe, Bear, Effinger, or Brin. It is not a novel, it is a
comic book, and there are many fans who would rather vote for an L. Ron
Hubbard novel than a comic book; it could not get a fair hearing.
    Third, alternately, people might feel that _Watchmen_ should be allowed
to compete with the novels, in, apparently, the belief that somehow the
Best Novel hugo is more important than any other Hugo.  _Watchmen_ does not
need to receive the Hugo for Best Novel to be properly praised; it should
not get that Hugo (even assuming it could) because it is not a Novel.
    
    _Watchmen_ is too good to be set up as an example of how the system is
flawed in that there isn't a Hugo for comics; in fact, the Other Forms
category was specifically designed to help redress the injustice that was
perpetrated upon _The Dark Knight Returns_. Comics, and other works that
are off the beaten track, should receive the recognition that they deserve.
    Until such a time as comics have their own Hugo (with its own attendant
problems--single issue or multi-parter? independent or mainstream? is _Love
and Rockets_ sf?), I support the Other Form, and I wish that everyone who
would like to see one of the works nominated get the recognition and
prestige that a Hugo can bring would vote in the category, rather than just
sulking.
 
    Now, onto a sidebar: A couple of other works that deserved some mention
in the Other Forms.
    _Robert Silverberg's Worlds of Wonder_ was an extremely good collection
of short stories, all of which were published in the 1940's and 50's, and
all of which had a significant influence on the way Silverberg approached
the task of writing fiction. The volume also includes an autobiographical
essay by Silverberg explaining how he came to be the writer he is, and an
afterword for each story pointing out ways in which the story functions,
and thus why it is well written. It is a collection which is far more than
the sum of its fictional components, but is, at its heart a fiction
collection, and which thus should not be considered for the Non-Fiction
Hugo.
    "Elvis Is Everywhere", by Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper, is a hilarious
song about the divine nature of Elvis. Explained within are such mysteries
of life as "Who built Stonehenge?" (Elvis, of course) and "What's happenin'
down in the Bermuda Triangle?" (Elvis needs boats, of course.) The song
also discusses space aliens ("They look like Elvis") and the ultimate fate
of mankind ("We're all moving towards Elvisness"). It can be found on their
album _Bo-DAY-Shus_, and is worth the price of the album alone. If I were
able to mandate one filk song appearing on the Hugo Ballot, this would be
it. (Next year, it will be Weird Al's "I Think I'm a Clone Now", but I'll
mention that later.)
    I might consider L. Ron as Best Dead SF Writer, or Gene Wolfe as Best
SF Panel Guest, or Spinrad versus Card as Best Past Feud (for 1986). But
now I'm getting silly, so now I'm going to sign ff.

If you think _Watchmen_ deserves a Hugo, for Gustav's sake, vote for it!

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 17:10:42 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: "Other Forms" Hugo award

>The Other Forms award is a special award that Nolacon is sponsoring.
>Unless it is formally moved at the Nolacon Business Meeting, and passed by
>the Business Meetings at Nolacon and Noreascon, Other Forms will probably
>be a "one shot" award.

I expect there will be some move at Nolacon. I may well do it if nobody
else does. The next OtherRealms will have a number of recommendations for
modifications/improvements [in my eyes] that I hope to at least bring to
the WSFS folks attention, assuming people don't shoot holes in them after
they've been published (they are, actually, very close to has been
discussed recently here on this forum after I brought this up...)

>The Other Forms award is a just a waste.

The CURRENT definition of Other Forms is a joke. But I think it has shown
that some better defined flavor of Other Forms is a good idea (this, from a
person who's been rather nasty about the existing category).

Among things that simply aren't covered well in the Hugos:

   scripts
   Graphic Novels
   Tom Weller
   Anthologies
   Collections

There are always "things" published that simply don't fit the rules, but
still demand some kind of attention. Sometimes we've been able to
bend/ignore the rules ("Science Made Stupid") and get away with it. Other
times ("Dark Knight") we haven't. A good "Gee, this really deserves some
kind of recognition" award is a good idea.

Perhaps it isn't even a voted award. Rather, people can nominate an "Other
Form" and if there is some piece that gets some large number of votes, the
committee chooses to award a special award to it. If there isn't an
overwhelming favorite, it doesn't get awarded.

>Don't comic fans give out their own awards???

Yes, but occasionally something from another field crosses over and demands
that we give it attention as well. "The Handmaid's Tale" is a good example
of a mainstream book that came close to winning awards in the genre.
There's no inherent reason why it should be different for a really good
comic or Graphic Novel. The only question is where the title gets put.

>Costumes and individual pieces of art are given awards at the convention
>where they are shown.  Some cons (Boskone is one of them) give awards for
>filk songs.  SF/fantasy plays are EXTREMELY RARE.

Agreed. I feel "Other Forms" should be specifically limited to published
works that simply don't fit any of the other awards. The publication of a
filk, for instance, might qualify, but not the performance of it. Costumes,
the Shaft, and all that other stuff is simply not reasonable.

>In short, I do not plan to support the "Other Forms" award.  Noreascon III
>has not yet decided to have such a category, though we are exploring
>the possibility of giving out a "Best Juvenile" award.

I like the idea of best Juvenile. It'd give me a chance to vote for "The
Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars" (READ IT! READ IT!) -- but is there
really enough genre related juvenile material that you can get five
finalists -- every year -- that you won't be ashamed of? I worry that there
simply isn't enough material to warrant it's own category. I'd like to be
proven wrong.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 18:31:51 GMT
From: 6057053@pucc.princeton.edu (Andrew Philip Berman)
Subject: Re: "Other Forms" Hugo award

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
 >The Other Forms award is a just a waste.  While many sf fans like comics,
>costumes, filk songs, plays, or fannish hacks, WHY should one of these
>things then win a Hugo??? Don't comic fans give out their own awards???
>Costumes and individual pieces of art are given awards at the convention
>where they are shown.  Some cons (Boskone is one of them) give awards for
>filk songs.  SF/fantasy plays are EXTREMELY RARE.
 >
>In short, I do not plan to support the "Other Forms" award.  Noreascon III
>has not yet decided to have such a category, though we are exploring the
>possibility of giving out a "Best Juvenile" award.
 
In answer to a few of your objections:

1) Certainly comic books give awards, so what?  Television shows also give
awards, as do movies.  Does this mean there should be no "dramatic
presentation" award?  The Eagles and the Kirbies signal that comic book
fans and the people in the comic book industry felt the work was a good
comic book.  A Hugo would show that sf fen consider the work to be good
science fiction.

2) Re: Filk awards.  Certainly some conventions give awards for filks.
However, such awards are regional things, and lack the prestige of a hugo.
Furthermore, what about sf poetry?  Poetry also belongs in none of the
established categories.  The "other forms" allows those things that have
been in sf for years (Humor, cartoons, poetry) to receive recognition.  (I
bring up poetry in the same paragraph as filking since some filk does get
sold as poetry. At Confederation, a group of people tried to agitate for a
poetry/filking hugo.  Perhaps this might be a better solution than "other
forms"?)

3) I agree that costumes should not be nominated for hugos.  Winning the
Worldcon masquerade should be equivalent.  (Perhaps the audience could
award a special fan award be voting after the Masquerade.)

Harold Feld
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 6 Jun 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 197

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Bear (3 msgs) & Dick (3 msgs) &
                          Gibson & Harrison (2 msgs) & Vance

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 00:31:15 GMT
From: well!pokey@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: _THE FORGE OF GOD_ now out in paperback

Greg Bear's first-contact novel has now been released in paperback.  It's
from TOR Books, 474 pages and worth it.  I have decided in recent years
that any serious hard science fiction must at least make a nod towards
answering Fermi's Question ("Where are the aliens?").  In _Forge_ and in
Bear's previous novel _Blood Music_, he doesn't just nod but devotes the
entire book to a realistic, no-punches-pulled possible answer.  It's
refreshing to see fiction that doesn't wimp out with a "happily-ever-after"
ending, and at the same time isn't gratuitously defeatist like most
cyberpunk.

Out of curiousity, I dug into the sf-lovers archives and extracted all the
messages about _Forge_ from last fall when it came out in hardback.  There
are 20 messages, but 12 of them are moronic flames about neutronium from
people who not only had not read the book but didn't even know what book
was being discussed.  Anyway, if you want me to mail you these messages (29
kilobytes), send me an Internet address or a uucp path relative to ucbvax.

By the way, none of the moronic flames mentioned the real physics flaw in
the book, which is that Bear underestimated the necessary mass for his
"Kemp objects" by a factor of 10,000.  This glitch doesn't affect the book
in any way, but still it's nice to get these things right.

Jef Poskanzer
jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa
...well!pokey

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 88 13:32:37 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: _THE FORGE OF GOD_ now out in paperback

Personally, I thought TFOG was frighteningly well done, but I just wonder
why the cybernetic spider people had to wait until the very last minute all
the time. First of all they didn't dispatch a scout until the whole thing
was just about over (not that they could have done much, but a couple of
extra shuttle- and soyuz- loads of people would have helped), and then they
waited until the world was just about to blow up before launching the
rescue ships. I would have expected a continuous stream of von-neumann
spaceships heading out from every major city on earth right from day one.

Yeh, they were busy with the war in the belt, but they managed to free the
resources to dump those big chunks of IO on Mars and Venus. How much would
it cost them to launch a handful of spiders right at the beginning?

Also, I really couldn't understand the reasoning behind the gobblers'
bothering with the effort of nuking the edges of the crustal plates. The
Kemp objects were quite sufficient to do their dirty work.

Peter da Silva
...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter
...!bellcore!tness1!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 09:38:01 GMT
From: well!pokey@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: _THE FORGE OF GOD_ now out in paperback

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Wolf) wrote:
>Also, I really couldn't understand the reasoning behind the gobblers'
>bothering with the effort of nuking the edges of the crustal plates. The
>Kemp objects were quite sufficient to do their dirty work.

No, as I mentioned, the Kemp objects were INsufficient by a factor of
10,000.  It was a MISTAKE.  The fusion bombs in the ocean, on the other
hand, were only short by a factor of 100 or so.  Fusing 1% of the hydrogen
in the oceans would be enough to disassemble the planet.  Bear had the sea
level drop noticeably due to the hydrogen extraction - say a couple of
feet.  That's 0.01%.  The only mistake Bear made with the fusion bombs was
in depicting their effects so mildly.

Still, you're right that the bombs are unexplained.  So are a lot of other
things the planet eaters did.  So what.  Just because you can't figure out
the reason doesn't mean they didn't have a reason.  Or do you know all
there is to know about disassembling planets?

I'll give you a forinstance.  You and everyone in the book assumed that the
bombs were placed along plate boundaries because the planet eaters wanted
to blow up the plate boundaries.  Not necessarily.  Perhaps their
super-duper atomic-membrane hydrogen separator works best at ultra high
pressures?  Such as those found at the bottom of plate-boundary trenches?
In other words, maybe they put the bombs there because that was the easiest
place to make them.

Jef Poskanzer
jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa
...well!pokey

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 88 00:07:19 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: PKD misc.

NJS@IBM.COM (Nicholas Simicich) writes:
>I have vague recollections (from back in 1970 or 71, I think, perhaps from
>the SF Book Club blurb) that P. K. Dick was quoted as saying that the book
>UBIK was written while under the influence of LSD, as an experiment.  Does
>anyone else remember this? Could this explain why some people seem to have
>difficulty with the books organization and plotting?  Perhaps it made
>sense when it was being written...

While I think the complete story of Dick's drug use has yet to be told
(there are any number of biographies being written, though), this "writing
stories on LSD" business is lacking in substance.  Harlan Ellison claimed
in Dangerous Visions that Dick's story therein was written under the
influence of LSD, which Dick ridiculed in the afterword.  It's been some
time since I've read this material, so I can't be specific.

Dick admitted using plenty of "speed" throughout much of his writing
career.  Any other statements connecting drug use (by Dick himself) and his
writing have to be considered bogus, unless you can claim to have known the
man (in which case your statements would be worthy of suspicion).

I stated earlier that the best critical book on PKD is Kim Stanley
Robinson's THE NOVELS OF PHILIP K. DICK, and implied that it was
unavailable.  Mark Ziesing's most recent catalog has it listed close to the
original price.  I have the address if anyone wants it (he is a good source
of Dick books, including the trade paperback of THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE
ALL EXACTLY ALIKE, which he published [my least favorite of the mainstream
Dick books]).  On a related note, Kim Stanley Robinson gave an unprepared
speech at last year's Worldcon about Dick that was well received, and many
people (KSR included) would like to see a copy of the text.  There were
some Belgian fans there who had recorded the speech and told KSR that they
would publish it in their fanzine and send him a transcript.  Many months
have passed and there has been no word from these mystery fans.  If anyone
has information that might lead to their being found, I would be very
grateful to hear it.  Also, if anyone actually heard the speech, I'd like
to hear about it.

I mentioned another critical book on PKD.  It is entitled PHILIP K. DICK,
by Douglas Mackey, published by Twayne Publishers(?)  (part of G.K. Hall,
which includes Gregg Press).  It has commentary on all of the novels, and
is well researched and footnoted (though the information can be rather
ho-hum for the fanatic).  I will post a selection from the book concerning
the interpretation of the ending of UBIK if there is interest.

The Collected Stories is still available, though there is some evidence
that supplies are running short.  It is in five volumes, with the stories
ordered according to their order of composition (based on the best
available research).  It includes a few previously unpublished works as
well as a large number of previously uncollected stories.  The bulk of the
stories are from very early in his career.  The only story I know of that
was not published in the Collected Stories was a short piece in Science
Fiction Eye #2, from Dick's "exigesis", presented as a story.

Frank Hollander
Internet, CSNET: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu
BITNET: fth6j@virginia
UUCP: mcnc!virginia!uvacs!fth6j
      uunet!virginia!uvacs!fth6j

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 06:19:21 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: 'VALIS' - the opera!

I just received a CD sampler that quite amazed me--To quote from the
hype-sheet that accompanied it...
 
"Bridge Records is pleased to announce the eagerly anticipated release of
Tod Machover's new opera, 'VALIS'.  Based on the novel by Philip K. Dick,
'VALIS' blends an unprecedented usage of state of the art computer
technology with a warm and lyrical vision of Dick's science fiction
Masterpiece."  [...]
 
"Set in California's Marin County in 1974, 'VALIS' opens with a blinding
epiphany of pink light, a devine revelation from a strange intelligence.  A
series of dreams and visions gradually unfold into an autobiographical
journey of madness, love and hope."  [...]
 
I've listened to the excerpts, and they are interesting.  I intend to get
the whole opera from their publicity people, and to broadcast it in the
near future.
 
If you are interested, the CD is BRIDGE BCD 9007.  For more info, contact:
   Bridge Records, Inc. 
   G.P.O. Box 1864 
   NYC, NY  10116 
   (516) 487-1662 

It is apparently also available on cassette.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 07:02:29 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: Re: UBIK

NJS@IBM.COM (Nicholas Simicich) writes:
>> I have vague recollections (from back in 1970 or 71, I think, perhaps
>> from the SF Book Club blurb) that P. K. Dick was quoted as saying that
>> the book UBIK was written while under the influence of LSD, [...]

duane@cg-atla.UUCP (Andrew Duane X5993) writes:
>This seems a likely possibility to me. Apparently, PKD did a fair amount
>of drugs (mostly? all? LSD).

Actually, I've read in any number of interviews that PKD emphatically
denied the use of hallucinogens at any time in his life.

However, he is reputed to have used amphetamines liberally, and most
notably lithium, in connection with certain mental problems, which in and
of themselves gave him an interesting view on the nature of reality.

As to the 'incomprehensibility' that the original net.poster alluded to,
there are many of us out here to whom it was quite comprehensible, and in
fact quite profound an examination of the nature of life and alternate
perceptions.

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 23:19:41 GMT
From: codas!novavax!maddoxt@moss.att.com (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

   Only people with access to books in the U.K. or some lucky few who have
seen galleys can have read William Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_;
nonetheless, a review of the book has been posted, and it contains at least
a couple of things I can't help responding to.

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>_Mona Lisa Overdrive_ finally appeared in the shops at the end of last
>week. (ISBN 0-575-04020-3)
>
>It is the third, and the flysheet claims final, part of Gibson's
>cyberspace sequence.
>
>It is a sequel to both _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_ and ties up some of
>the loose ends left in both novels.  [. . .]
>
>_MLO_ suffers perhaps from following the Cyberpunk formula too closely. If
>you have eagerly devoured Gibson's earlier works, some of the threads of
>the plot in this book will be a little predictable.

   "The Cyberpunk formula"?   Arrghh!!!

   Insofar as there is a formula, it is (1) followed by others, not Gibson,
and (2) derived *from* Gibson.  So, to accuse him of employing a formula is
a bit thick; he continues to write as William Gibson.
   If you find plot threads overly predictable, by the way, you should tell
what they are and why you find them so--otherwise, you're simply making
empty assertions.  Gibson is too important a writer to dismiss with this
kind of glib statement.
   Also, with regard to the supposed "formula," what are its
characteristics and who employs it?  I think you'll find, once you try to
answer these questions, that the people grouped (arbitrarily,
helter-skelter) under the rubric cyberpunk represent a considerable
diversity of styles, themes, plots, and ideas.  Maybe Walter Jon Williams's
_Hardwired_ is formulaic, maybe not.  How about Bruce Sterling's
_Schismatrix_, aside from Gibson's work probably the finest example of
something that could be called cyberpunk?  Rudy Rucker?  Lew Shiner?  John
Shirley?
   Pretty quickly the whole thing degenerates into "yes it is/no it's not"
shouting and jumping up and down.
   So . . . if you want to criticize Gibson's work, early or late, take it
on its own merits, which are considerable, and never mind all the cant,
hyperbole, and marketing brain-grease about "cyberpunk."
   (And if you want to start down the rough road of sorting out cyberpunk
itself, buckle up because it's a weird ride.)

>All Cyberpunk addicts should run to the nearest bookshop and order this
>book now. For everyone else, a quick walk will do.

   Comments above abut taking Gibson as Gibson, not as supposed
representative of a dubious genre, apply here in spades.

>I give it ****. (Neuromancer *****, Count Zero ***)

   Why?  See comment about empty assertions above.

>The final book? ... possibly, but somehow I doubt it.

   The final *Sprawl* book, Gibson says, never mind the book jacket.  And I
don't doubt it.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 18:46:06 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun.uucp (Hal Pomeranz)
Subject: Re: You Can Be A Stainless Steel Rat

deckard@ucscb.UCSC.EDU writes:
> I saw The Stainless Steel Rat Joins the Army or some such title
> in hardback at the airport bookstore a while ago. check it out.

_The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted_ is Harrison's latest Jim DiGriz
story.  The action takes place immediately after _A Stainless Steel Rat is
Born_, following the young Jimmy Digriz's attempts to avenge his mentor and
generally coming of age while saving the world from the evil imperialistic
forces of the universe.

In the SSR stories, Harrison has literarily done something akin to painting
oneself into a corner.  The first five SSR books follow the piqaresque
adventures of an older Jim Digriz.  However, by the end of the fifth book
Jim is feeling his age more and more and his larcenous family can pretty
well pulverize anyone who gives them trouble.  Thus, there can be little
story material following the fifth SSR book unless one of Jim's children
wanders off and gets into trouble on his own (and that just wouldn't be the
same now would it?).

On the other hand the six and seventh books follow the exploits of a
younger Jim DiGriz, and this also presents problems.  Obviously, there is
only a finite amount of time before the action of the first SSR book picks
up.  Also, Harrison has to avoid any contradictions with the first five
books.  This strikes me as the sort of situation to give an author
nightmares.

Nevertheless, if you liked the other SSR books, you'll like _The Stainless
Steel Rat Gets Drafted_.  It's more in pure fun than _A Stainless Steel Rat
is Born_, but shows a little more depth than the first few SSR books.  But,
hey, let's face it-- you don't read SSR books to fulfull your college lit
requirements.

*** SMALL SPOILER ***

Besides the book is worth it, if only for the scene where DiGriz loses his
virginity...

Hal
UUCP: {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!pomeranz
CS Net: pomeranz@swatsun.swarthmore.edu
BitNet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!pomeranz@psuvax1.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 88 15:03:38 GMT
From: hal@garth.uucp (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: You Can Be A Stainless Steel Rat

At Racon in Edinburgh in 1983 Harry Harrison told us that there were plans
afoot to make a film about the Stainless Steel Rat, which amazed everyone
who thought that he had given up on the industry because of Soylent Green
(nope, he even requested that it be shown and talked about it).  He asked
for ideas about whom to cast; Harrison Ford was a popular idea.

Haven't heard anything about it since.

Interesting anecdote on Soylent Green: at the premier the movie manager,
not having seen the film, had the popcorn in the lounge tinted green to
celebrate the movie.  Yummy.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 08:36:00 GMT
From: quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no (Kai Quale)
Subject: Re: Vance

bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU (Bard Bloom) writes:
>Jack Vance is a superb writer.  His characters are mostly flat.  His plots
>are mostly unconvincing and frequently tedious. [..]

Huh ?!? How the h*ll can you be a superb writer when your characters are
flat, your plots unconvincing and tedious ? Is there a dimension to writing
that I still haven't caught on to ?

Apart from that, I enjoy Vance immensely when he writes about alien
cultures (Tschai etc.) and magic (The Dying Earth). He does, however, have
a problem seeing when an idea is used up (Servants of the Klau, Galactic
Effectuator, Cugel, ...)

Kai Quale
quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 7 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 198

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 18:43:49 GMTF
From: laurela@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Carrie)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:
>Apparently, most of the readers (who seem to be male) of sf here
>seems to accept the statement,"
>
>"Anyone one with a healthy emotional makeup will find rape no harder
>to take than any other kind of assault."
>
>I'd really like to asky WHY do people think this.  Because it has a lot to
>do with the believability of Heinlein's character and why people may think
>he is sexist and why other people deny that.

OK. I'll bite. :( There *IS* a difference between rape and other kinds of
assault. I'm not a Heinlein fan. His female characters and his morality
have always been somewhat unrealistic in my eyes. Clearly, lots of people
think he's neat and there are a lot of people who let their thoughts be
shaped by his writing.

Let me tell you that for normal people sex is not like shaking hands, nor
should it be. For most women (and men, by the way), unwanted forcible
penetration is not the same as unwanted wallet theft or unwanted slap in
the face. Rape is a forced BODILY INTRUSION. It can make a woman pregnant.
It can give *anybody* AIDS. For most of us, there are huge emotional
consequences associated with sexual contact and control over our own bodies
and who we choose to mate with. In a rape, that very fundamental choice is
violated.

Some of you do not believe there is a qualitative diffrerence between rape
and other assaults? Think on it. Then why is childhood sexual abuse a
separate category from physical abuse? Even when there is no force or overt
coercion, having sex with a child is sick and destructive and a crime. This
is because sexual acts are qualitatively different from other physical
acts. Why do *YOU* care who you sleep with? Why not just *ANYONE*? There
are reasons that we choose as we do. There are reasons why we are *very*
selective about who our sexual partners are.

I have been physically assaulted and I have been raped. You can argue that
by Heinlein's standards I am not emotionally healthy enough, but this
smacks of arguing along Freudian lines for determinining sexual normalcy in
women. Heinlein is no expert on women. He is a man with an axe to grind.
For this relatively normal woman, there was a huge qualitative difference
between "simple" assault (not so simple and not so pleasant, mind you) and
sexual assault.

Is this kind of reasoning so hard for all you Heinlein fans to accept?  The
belief that rape is not a special kind of intrusion is naiive at best, at
worst misogynistic. Even given that the victim is "free and easy" about sex
(not necessarily a normal or a healthy thing), the fact of having *ALL*
choice of partner removed from oneself makes the act traumatic. Stop and
think a little bit before you start getting all philosophical about this
and think about real life. REAL people aren't like characters in a Heinlein
novel. Real people don't fit into Heinlein's fantasies. Real people live by
the constraints their own lives and genes have created for them, not by the
dreams of some science fiction guru.

(Yes, I know there are a *LOT* of Heinlein fans out there... )

Carrie 
laurela@soe.berkeley.edu
laurela%soe.berkeley.edu@jade.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 88 21:54:57 GMT
From: tiedeman@acf3.nyu.edu (Eric S. Tiedemann)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism

ewa@silvlis.COM (Ernest Adams) writes:
>We might as well face it: Lazarus Long *is* Robert Heinlein, for practical
>purposes.  He's a mouthpiece for Heinlein's Nietzschean theories.  Into
>this character's mouth he places such words (quotes are approximate) as:
[the "women as baby-factories" quotes]

"Lazarus Long *is* Robert Heinlein" won't wash--there are too many
counter-examples.  Too bad, I would like to have such a convenient model of
Heinlein.  I'm intrigued by your description of Heinlein's theories as
"Nietzschean".  I certainly see deliberate Nietzschean allusions in his
writing.  Could you be more explicit about where you see such?  For
instance, do you consider the aphorisms you quote Nietzschean?  Could you
provide some references in Nietzsche's works that support that
interpretation?

Best,

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 88 05:29:56 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

laurela@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Carrie) writes:
>roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:
>>Apparently, most of the readers (who seem to be male) of sf
>>here seems to accept the statement,"
>
>>"Anyone one with a healthy emotional makeup will find rape no harder to
>>take than any other kind of assault."
>
>>I'd really like to asky WHY do people think this.  Because it has a lot
>>to do with the believability of Heinlein's character and why people may
>>think he is sexist and why other people deny that.

   In response to this Carrie explains why, both from personal knowledge,
and generally from a womans perspective that rape is indeed much more
traumatic than other kinds of assault.

... Begin comments

   It may be that there is a cultural element involved, i.e. the traumatic
effect of rape may be greater in our culture than in some others; the
traumatic effect of an event does, in general, depend on ones conditioning
and culture.  However I find it hard to credit that rape is not more
traumatic than other kinds of assault, irrespective of culture, and I am
inclined to believe that people who take the quoted stated at its face
value, out of context, are seriously lacking in empathy.

   This statement is taken from the novel Friday, by Heinlein.  The context
is that the heroine, Friday, is a trained, highly skilled, intelligence
operative working for a private intelligence organization.  In an early
scene in the book she is captured by nasties, interrogated, and gang raped
during the interrogation.  The quotation is part of internal soliloquy on
standing up to the less savory aspects of interrogation and the use of rape
as a technique.

   The context is important; the heroine is not an ordinary woman.  If you
think of her a female Gordon Liddy you begin to understand the situation.
She is a trained intelligence operator; assault, rape, and torture are an
occupational hazard, and special training and conditioning to deal with
them is part of her stock in trade.  The heroine's notion of "emotionally
healthy" cannot be taken at face value -- her notion of "emotionally
healthy" is conditioned by her training and experience.  One of the points
of the novel is that this person, who can deal readily with experiences
that would be highly traumatic for most people, is as vulnerable as anyone
else to traumatic experiences which she is not trained for.

   It is really rather silly to argue about whether Heinlein was a "sexist"
or not; by the standards of those people to whom "sexist" is a perjorative,
he clearly was.  Heinlein was very much a person of his place and time; his
fiction consistently reflects the values and experiences that he grew up
with.  He and his values changed over time; they did not change as much as
the times around him changed.  The world that he grew up in was "sexist".
Heinlein wrote about the future of a world that disappeared during his
lifetime -- an occupational risk of science fiction writers.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 02:21:05 GMT
From: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>Much as I hate to get involved in this argument, I have to agree that
>Heinlein's "maxim" that "an armed society is a polite society" doesn't
>seem to be reflected in the reality of mobs, secret societies, and gangs.
>If we agree that there are a lot of weapons in inner-city areas, does this
>mean everyone there, or even a majority, are polite?

You are still looking at a society where the vast majority of the populace
is _not_ carrying a weapon at any given time.  Contrast the case where
every bank robber can expect everyone in the bank and everyone on the
street to be armed and conversant with their weapon.  You just don't mess
with people who _all_ have instant lethal force at their command.  If that
is everyone, then you get polite, or you get dead, no third choice.

>And as for his apparent contention that public whippings are a good way to
>enforce laws (STARSHIP TROOPERS), I would point the reader to the current
>legal system in Iran and other countries which use public whippings.  The
>conclusion is left as an exercise.

OK, I'll bite.  I haven't much use for their political systems, but minus
that, how much petty crime exists there compared to one of our big cities?
Think about how many jail sentences would make much more sense as a public
whipping in our society.  Jail should be used for restraining those who are
too violent or abusive to be allowed to run free in society; what good does
it do anyone to put an embezzler in jail for ten years?  Recover what money
you can, punish him/her, get it over with, and make sure s/he is not
welcomed back soon to a position of trust handling money.  Society saves
the price of ten years jail, that much of a life avoids being wasted, and
everyone goes on about their business.  I think America has got the whole
wrong idea about which punishments are "cruel and unusual", and which are
"normal and just."

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 02:27:46 GMT
From: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: About Heinlein

I see a lot of argument about Heinlein the Sexist.

I think this is a bit unfair.  The fellow was a grown man, attitudes set,
in 1928.  Where were his role models for equal rights?  I don't think you
are going to find any male born much before 1960 who has had the chance to
grow up in an environment where equal rights are actually occasionally
practiced.  The rest of us can't avoid being sexist to one degree or
another.  We can fight it, but we can't always win.

To me (b. 1943) Heinlein isn't sexist.  He is a man in favor of a strong
family, who grew up through the dissolution of the extended family, and the
dismemberment of the nuclear family, and died in the era of the one parent
family.  This hasn't been a wonderful trend for the nation or the family,
and his writings carried arguments for the older values.

When you evaluate Heinlein (or anyone) as a writer, evaluate them with
their generation's values, not with "your" generation's values.  For a man
of his generation, Heinlein managed to portray many strong female role
models; he also portrayed a few bimbos.  You lose some.  The real world
contains a few bimbos, and a few bozos too.  This doesn't make him less of
a writer than, say, D. H. Lawrence, who certainly wrote of a bimbo or two
himself, or Chaucer, who did the same.

I feel, as many seem to, that his writing went downhill the last several
years; I spoke of it to my friends as "a fellow that famous can get away
with writing anything, and it will sell."  This doesn't remove the quality
or the lasting effect of his juveniles or his better adult sf.  No one can
pitch a strike every time; it is as unfair to expect it of a writer as of
any other laborer.

To me Heinlein is a "great writer" because he wrote _some_ great
literature; that is his legacy to us.  Most authors never make that
plateau.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 07:39:07 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

Enough, already! Somebody, READ THE BOOK!

Friday is captured by secret agents. She's expecting really rough torture,
with ultra-sophisticated chemicals and machinery.  Instead, the Big Boss
orders his underlings to rape her. She says to herself, "what a bunch of
primitives, next thing you know, they'll be using bamboo shoots under the
fingernails! They expect to break a trained agent by doing that? What
goobs."  She remarks upon how unprofessional and how futile the act is, and
wonders why agent X, who is obviously a professional, is in with all these
obvious amateurs. Agent X argues with Big Boss, saying not to do it, but
Big Boss orders him to anyhow, with the implication that if he doesn't, he
gets a new nostril in his forehead.  So agent X rapes her, after a couple
others get their shot. Later, Friday meets agent X aboard ship, he defects
from his current Big Boss and helps her escape a death trap, and they
eventually get married.

Nowhere in the book can I find a passage that says that rape is fun.
COMPARED TO WHAT FRIDAY WAS EXPECTING, rape is fun. But by any normal
measure, rape is traumatic (remember the rescue scene, when all the female
members of the staff are saying "How horrible!" and offering Friday
emotional support).

Another thing to note: Friday's upbringing. An "Artificial Person" is
created from genetically-altered human genetic materials, in order to do
certain tasks. For example, one AP might be specially modified for null-G
work to have four arms and no legs, with bones that retain their calcium.

In the case of Friday, it seems obvious that she was raised in a creche
with APs intended for a totally different purpose: sex toys for rich
people. Both male and female sex toys, obviously (Friday describes how they
were encouraged to copulate as much as possible).  This did much damage to
her psyche, in terms of her ability to cope with her own sexuality, since
she was basically trained to be a willing "receptacle" to every male who so
demanded. One whole subplot of the book deals with Friday coping with her
upbringing and coming to terms with it.

Conclusion: While there are other Heinlein books which are demonstratably
sexist (Stranger in a Strange Land, Time Enough for Love, where all the
women end up in a hot tub in group orgies, while the men do all the
action'n'stuff), Friday is NOT one of Heinlein's sexist books.

In fact, I found Friday to be quite good, one of Heinlein's best. The
plotting, never Heinlein's strong point, is about the best he ever did, and
while the characters are still cardboard (albeit well-drawn cardboard),
they work well enough for what Heinlein seemed to like to do -- illustrate
a point (a number of them, actually -- the prime one being the evils of
classifying a person as non-human just because a few genes are different.
This is sexist?!). Hard to believe that he wrote it between The Number of
the Beast and The Cat who Walked Through Walls, both so abysmal as to be
almost unreadable (although "Cat" and "Beast" both had a number of
"in"-jokes that made it ALMOST worth reading them).

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
{cuae2,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 19:28:40 GMT
From: lae@pedsga.uucp
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com.UUCP writes:
>Apparently, most of the readers (who seem to be male) of sf here
>seems to accept the statement,"
>
>"Anyone one with a healthy emotional makeup will find rape no harder
>to take than any other kind of assault."

Ummmm... I disagree.  The most painful part of rape, I've been told, is the
sudden realization that "they" (males) are _capable_ of raping.  How to
explain?  It has something to do with shattering a woman's basic trust in
the social contract, and in men.  As a female working in a traditionally
male field, I am surrounded by larger people who could, but for their puny
consciences, tie me to a drafting table and do their worst.  I KNOW that
this won't ever happen, though I can't explain how I know, and so I have
never even thought about it until now.  The only way a woman would be
unaffected by rape, then, would be if she already lacked basic trust.  Not
a healthy mindset, do you agree?

Are there any psychologists out there who can comment on this theory?  I
specifically don't understand why a simple assault wouldn't have the same
effect.

I understand that males who are raped (yes, it happens) also may suffer
emotionally after the experience.  Can anyone comment on this?

>I'd really like to asky WHY do people think this.  Because it has a lot to
>do with the believability of Heinlein's character and why people may think
>he is sexist and why other people deny that.

Heinlein's character is a SPY, a person who must live constantly with lies,
mistrust, duplicity.  She couldn't possibly have maintained even a shred of
trust in her line of work, so she would have nothing to lose emotionally by
being raped instead of "merely" being stabbed in the kidneys as another
poster has suggested.  The above quote, then, is definitely in character
for HER, though it is not true.

I personally think that Heinlein oversimplifies sexual relationships,
ignoring the emotional overtones that I find in my own relationships.
Casual sex is great, but there can be more than that...

Leslie

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 7 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 199

Today's Topics:

			   Films - Dune (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 06:33:42 GMT
From: jfreund@dasys1.uucp (Jim Freund)
Subject: 'Dune' with some restored footage

Well, I watched Part One of the Universal TV syndicated version of Dune
with some 50 added minutes of unseen footage.  I have seen this film at
least three times in it's 160 minute version in the theatres, and thrice
more in the 140 minute version on cassette, so I think I can remember what
was added (and missing) from this version.

The first and foremost recognizable difference is all new opening credits,
with David Lynch's name completely absent!  (Can't say as I blame
him--we've yet to see the movie he made.)  Instead, his direction credit
goes to someone named Alan Smithee, and his screenplay credit to Judas
Booth.  (There's >gotta< be an entertaining story there!)  In the
theatrical release, the film opened with a mysterious prologue spoken
onscreen by the Princess Irulan, went into the credits, and then segued to
Paul's personal computer giving us background information.  Now, there's an
abrupt opening (the title music welled up under Irulan's speech--now it
just cuts in mid-note) that leads into a Prologue showing a copy (not even
a first edition:-) of Herbert's novel, and hand-drawn still scenes telling
us who all the characters are, and a little about the political situation
at the Imperial court, etc.  This accounts for at least 10 minutes of the
'unseen footage'--and it's not even part of the original film--while at the
same time provided an excuse for cutting out another 5.  This new narrative
is liberally inserted throughout, often obscuring the soundtrack by Toto
and Brian Eno.  It really adds nothing.

Where scenes had been cut in the original film was always quite clear.  The
first third of the novel was left somewhat intact. In this television run,
more scenes were >cut< from this section than added.  (Mostly little
gross-out bits with the Baron Harkonen.  "Oh my lovely Baron, I love your
boils..")  When we arrive on Arrakis, things start getting a little spotty,
and when Paul joins the Fremen, all is lost.  This seems to be borne out.
While the Navigation sequence remains cut by half (as it was between the
theatres and cassettes) we may now notice that the Shadout Mapes (Linda
Hunt) >does< explain to Jessica about the prophecy having been planted by
the Bene Gesserit, Jessica resolving to get pregnant before Leto dies, The
Fremen watching the House Atreides arrive on Arrakis, the Duke holding a
meeting about palace security and getting briefed on Liet-Kynes, and Gurney
Halleck (Patrick Stewart) playing his stringed instrument (the fact he is a
balladeer figures strongly in the novel) and drawing out Liet-Kynes (Max
Von Sydow) as one who has an alliance with the Fremen.

With any luck, the majority of reinstated footage will be the Fremen
scenes, to be shown in Part II.  Nevertheless, it is still quite clear that
this is >not< the film that David Lynch made, and I still very much want to
see it in it's original 290 minute version.  Maybe someday...

Jim Freund
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!jfreund

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 13:34:34 GMT
From: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John O)
Subject: Re: 'Dune' with some restored footage

jfreund@dasys1.UUCP (Jim Freund) writes:
>The first and foremost recognizable difference is all new opening credits,
>with David Lynch's name completely absent!  (Can't say as I blame
>him--we've yet to see the movie he made.)  Instead, his direction credit
>goes to someone named Alan Smithee, and his screenplay credit to Judas
>Booth.  (There's >gotta< be an entertaining story there!)

The way I understand things is that the Directors Guild requires the studio
to give the director credit for a movie.  However the director can give any
name he wants.  And Alan Smithee is the name the directors use when they
don't want there real names on a film.  Somewhere I saw a list of Films
that where directed by Mr. Smithee.

Maybe Mark or someone can dig up a list.

John C. Orthoefer
University of Florida
UUCP: ...ihnp4!codas!uflorida!beach.cis.ufl.edu!jco
Internet: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 15:42:09 GMT
From: reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov (Peter Reiher)
Subject: Re: 'Dune' with some restored footage

jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes:
>The way I understand things is that the Directors Guild requires the
>studio to give the director credit for a movie.  However the director can
>give any name he wants.  And Alan Smithee is the name the directors use
>when they don't want there real names on a film.  Somewhere I saw a list
>of Films that where directed by Mr. Smithee.

Not quite right.  The director of a film has two choices - his own name on
the film, or "Alan Smithee".  Generally, the Guild only allows the latter
if there is some major tampering with the film that justifies the director
in disowning it, such as being replaced halfway through filming, or having
the film totally recut without his permission, or similar dirty tricks.
The Guild doesn't let directors get away with simply disowning turkeys of
their own making.  If you see a film directed by "Alan Smithee", it's a
sure sign that the film isn't the way the original director intended it to
be.

The LA Times published a list of Smithee's credits a few months ago.  There
weren't any famous films on the list, which was no surprise.  The entire
list consisted of only half a dozen or so films, some of which were for
television.

Peter Reiher
reiher@amethyst.jpl.nasa.gov
...cit-vax!elroy!jplpub1!jade!reiher

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 20:58:19 GMT
From: russell@eneevax.uucp (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: 'Dune' with some restored footage

reiher@amethyst.UUCP (Peter Reiher) writes:
>Not quite right.  The director of a film has two choices - his own name on
>the film, or "Alan Smithee".  Generally, the Guild only allows the latter
>if there is some major tampering with the film that justifies the director
>in disowning it, such as being replaced halfway through filming, or having
>the film totally recut without his permission, or similar dirty tricks.

Am I to assume then that David Lynch preferred the two and a half hour
confusing hodge-podge of scenes that visited itself upon our local theatres
over this extended production which, while still a little short in the
explanation department, was a vast improvement and could actually be
followed by someone who didn't read the book within the last 6 months?  I
would imagine that he would be thrilled to get more of his work out and
would even be striving to get the entire four and a half hour version
released somehow (say, on video tape or laserdisc).

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.eng.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 17:56:36 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: DUNE

Rob Wald writes:
>someone saying if the new stuff is interesting (also what it is) and if it
>improves the movie at all? Thanks.

I think it was a definite improvement; for example, the cinema version had
a scene where several planets were all shown on the screen (Giedi Prime,
Arrakis, Caladan), in a way that I thought was pretty hokey.  Last night's
version displayed the planetary information in a way that I thought was far
more believable, in terms of 1) the nature of the computer's human
interface (hey, wait a minute...computers in DUNE????  Maximum bogosity,
and it didn't even occur to me until just now!), and 2) in terms of the
seeming-realism of the view of the planets in 3D space.

Several other scenes were similarly more realistic due to more time and
detail being spent on them. One gross editing mistake: in the scene where
the Baron Harkonnen was introduced, he ends up floating into a shower (of
blood?). The cinema version spent several seconds on this; last night's
version clipped it down to less than one second...too short to see what
exactly he was doing. The guy in charge of Continuity (didn't notice his
name) screwed that up. It would have been better to cut it altogether. No
big deal, though.
 
This version is probably *still* too cryptic, though. My girlfriend says
she didn't understand the cinema version too well, and she had a ton of
questions about what the hell was going on in many of the scenes in this
version, too. Since I've read the book maybe twenty times, this isn't easy
for me to see clearly. But I do get the impression that they're trying hard
for a "2001-like artistic mysterious feeling". Trying *too* hard.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 02:48:22 GMT
From: gateley@mips.csc.ti.com (John Gateley)
Subject: Re: DUNE

johnm@voltron.SGI.COM (Foosball Addict) writes:
>RLWALD@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robert L. Wald) writes:
>>   I did see a few minutes of it. I had forgotten all about the
>> sound weapons. What a stupid concept.
>
>Why do you consider the wierding modules 'a stupid concept'?

I considered them one of the worst features of the movie. In the book, (at
least the way I understood it), the 'weirding way' was the Bene Gesserit
method of fighting. It involved all the weird training they went through to
develop their bodies/minds to the nth degree. I think it involved extreme
speed and trickiness. Paul had learned it from his mother, which was an
illegal act on her part. He taught it to the fremen, who were already the
best fighters around, to make them even better.  The way the movie
presented it, they wore little wrist watches that you spoke into which
caused explosions in front of you (I think, my memory is pretty vague on
the exact details). Not only is this not the way fighting was done (it was
almost entirely close combat), but also the fremen were presented as people
who forgot to turn the silly things off (and not the excellent warriors
they were).  In short, I thought it cheapened the concepts presented in the
book.  Disclaimer: I read the book first, and this always seems to spoil
the movie.

John

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 17:03:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.uucp (Lawrence C. Smith)
Subject: Re: DUNE

I saw a number of mistakes.  Did anyone else notice that all the new added
footage in Stilgar's sietch showed all the Fremen sans blue-glow effect in
the eyes?  I guess that was the last thing they added to the theatrical
release version.  It was funny to see the intercuts with Sean Young's eyes
first blue, then brown (? - looked brown, anyway).

The guild navigator scene was different from the theatre release - the
cinema version gave the navigator an eerie voice created by modulating a
squeeking door sound with a human voice.  The TV version had the original
actor dub.

Patrick Stewart had lots more to do and he was fun to watch having fun
doing it -- "Go I now like an ass into the desert..."  Hysterical.  He even
got to play that weird instrument he was shown carrying in the "shield
practice" scene.

More interesting was what WASN'T shown at all - the Baron's ripping out the
drone's heartplug just after his bloodshower was gone, the lingering shots
of the Baron's doctor's assistants (with the skewered eyes) was gone, the
dopey doctor's monologue on how wonderful the Baron's running sores were
was gone (and that was his only line, too! But they left in his picture
credit at the end of the movie), and the Bene-Gesserits-all-over-the-
galaxy-bleeding-from-the-ears-nose-and-mouth-when-Paul-takes-the-water-of-
life-montage was completely excised.

All in all, I'd say the new cut has taken an inexplicable wreck of waste
celluloid and turned it into a sort of respectable grade B movie.  Well,
B-.

Larry Smith

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 21:42:26 GMT
From: demasi@paisano.uucp (Michael C. De Masi)
Subject: Re: DUNE

gateley@mips.csc.ti.com (John Gateley) writes:
> johnm@voltron.SGI.COM writes:
>>RLWALD@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robert L. Wald) writes:
>>>   I did see a few minutes of it. I had forgotten all about the
>>> sound weapons. What a stupid concept.
>
>>Why do you consider the weirding modules 'a stupid concept'?
>
> I considered them one of the worst features of the movie. In the book,
> (at least the way I understood it), the 'weirding way' was the Bene
> Gesserit method of fighting. It involved all the weird training they went
> through to develop their bodies/minds to the nth degree. I think
>
> In short, I thought it cheapened the concepts presented in the book.

I think it had two purposes.  The first was to make the concept more
understandable to the great unwashed, and the second was another excuse to
throw in some nifty special effects.  One other real bastardization with
the same two-fold purpose was the Guild Navigator's ability to 'fold space'
under the influence of Spice.  What a stupid concept.  In the book, Spice
gave the navigators prescience, which enabled them to make navigational
decisions at the great speeds they would have to be going to travel the
distances they went.  Never was it stated anywhere in the book that spice
had any qualities that would allow one to directly manipulate space or
matter within.

The scene that made me cringe the most was when Paul spoke to the Fremen in
the great hall (or whatever it was.)  When he was done, he pulled his knife
and cheered.  ALL the Fremen did the same thing.  When I saw this in the
theater, one other guy about four rows back just yelled "WRONG" at the top
of his lungs.  As much as I hate this type of behavior in a theater, I had
to agree with him.

Lousy movie,
Mike D

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 15:24:21 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: 'Dune' with some restored footage

gateley@mips.csc.ti.com (John Gateley) writes:
>>>   I did see a few minutes of it. I had forgotten all about the
>>> sound weapons. What a stupid concept.
>I considered them one of the worst features of the movie. In the book, (at
>least the way I understood it), the 'wierding way' was the Bene Gesserit
>method of fighting.

Yes, and this was sort of mentioned when Jessica used it in the initial
contact with the freman.

>The way the movie presented it, 

Here we have some agreement.  My memory of the book is the special weapon
that the Atreidies developed was a way of converting the shield into an
anti-grav device that would allow the fremen to jump great distances.
Instead, the presented the sonic devices, which were only described in
quick snatches, but the basic concept was more complex than shouting
destruction at an enemy...

>they wore little wrist watches that you spoke into which caused explosions
>in front of you (I think, my memory is pretty vague on the exact details).

Much bigger than a wrist watch, considering it covered the entire hand, and
larger models were available.

>Not only is this not the way fighting was done (it was almost entirely
>close combat), but also the fremen were presented as people who forgot to
>turn the silly things off (and not the excellent warriors they were).

Not *all* the fighting done in DUNE was close fighting, as air-borne
weapons were used.  Projectile weapons were useless because of shields, but
the movie stated that using a shield in the open was not possible because
of static discharge, so projectile weapons were allowed, as well as laser
weapons.

As for leaving the sonic weapon on, that was supposed to be one of the
indications that the sonic weapons was more than a sound projector.  The
device could be left on and functioning because only a sound that matched a
particular thought cue was supposed to activate the weapon.  The thought
cue was different for each person, but had to be associated with a violent
force or emotion.  When the weapon went of when the warrior stated
Muad'dib's name, it was a sign that his warriors were beginning to
associate his name with war.

>In short, I thought it cheapened the concepts presented in the book.

The movie didn't have sufficient detail to get across the alternate
concepts it was trying to display.  At the same time, it was trying to get
across some very complex ideas to the general movie going audience... so,
essentially, you are correct.

>Disclaimer: I read the book first, and this always seems to spoil the
>movie.

Yep.  But in this case, the movie wouldn't make much sense without the book
to base guesses on.

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 8 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 200

Today's Topics:

		Books - Bear & Ellison & Gibson (3 msgs) &
                        McKillip (2 msgs) &                         
                        Story Request Answered (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 20:27:15 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: _THE FORGE OF GOD_ now out in paperback

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes
>Also, I really couldn't understand the reasoning behind the gobblers'
>bothering with the effort of nuking the edges of the crustal plates. The
>Kemp objects were quite sufficient to do their dirty work.

Ditto for most of the objections Peter had with Forge of God.  What I found
most confusing was why the gobblers would bother with all the fakery that
they did (the bogeys).  There wasn't anything the humans could do to
interfere with the gobblers, so why bother with all that deception?  And
why would the gobblers bother with Earth anyway?  It was never clear to me
that the gobblers were anti-chemical life at all.  If they were, why not
annihilate all life on Earth some easier way?

Scott 

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 02:51:05 GMT
From: galloway@elma.epfl.ch
Subject: Re: Last Dangerous Visions

Well, at least as of a year and a half ago, the manuscripts to LDV still
exist; I saw them stacked on a railing around the stairwell to Harlan's
office.

As much as I like Harlan, I have to say that at this point, the only way I
can believe that LDV has come out will be the day I hopefully am holding a
copy in my own hands.  There are a lot of theorized reasons for the almost
two decades delay; some have to do with the sheer magnitude of the task of
writing the introductions, some have to do with writer's block, some have
to do with Harlan's suffering from chronic Epstein-Barr virus for a number
of years. And there are others.

But whatever the reason(s) for the delay, unfortunately Harlan's track
record on this project is such that it really isn't a good idea to build up
expectations about when it'll be out. While Harlan says he's feeling better
these days thanks to a suggestion by Norman Spinrad that he go on
megavitamin therapy, he's announced the imminent publication of LDV too
many times over the years to inspire confidence that it'll soon be done
until it's actually available for sale.  As far as I know though,
*everyone* wishes and hopes that it will be done, the sooner the better.

tyg
tyg@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 03:00:11 GMT
From: erict@flatline.uucp (j. eric townsend)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

This article sounded vaguely familiar in places.  Then I took another look
at the author, and realised I'd heard this somewhere before..  ArmadilloCon
IX, Austin, Tx.

(Note:  irrelevant paragraphs deleted as neccessary.)

maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) writes:

> 	Only people with access to books in the U.K. or some lucky few who
> have seen galleys can have read William Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_;
> nonetheless, a review of the book has been posted, and it contains at
> least a couple of things I can't help responding to.

> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>>_MLO_ suffers perhaps from following the Cyberpunk formula too closely.
>>If you have eagerly devoured Gibson's earlier works, some of the threads
>>of the plot in this book will be a little predictable.

Arg.  He said the C-word.  Another victim of the marketing-virus.

> 	Insofar as there is a formula, it is (1) followed by others, not
> Gibson, and (2) derived *from* Gibson.  So, to accuse him of employing a
> formula is a bit thick; he continues to write as William Gibson.

I would venture to guess that the "c-word formula" -- as opposed to being a
Gibson invented formula -- is actually just a rewrite of Mickey Spillane
with the props change and a touch of Burroughs/Pynchon to wow the natives.
Maybe an unusal tense usage.

> 	If you find plot threads overly predictable, by the way, you should
> tell what they are and why you find them so--otherwise, you're simply
> making empty assertions.  Gibson is too important a writer to dismiss
> with this kind of glib statement.

Maybe -- I somehow doubt it -- our hallowed reviewer (where have all the
good fiction *critics* gone?) was trying to not spoil the plot by giving
away too much in his post.

> 	So . . . if you want to criticize Gibson's work, early or late,
> take it on its own merits, which are considerable, and never mind all the
> cant, hyperbole, and marketing brain-grease about "cyberpunk."

Take it on its own merits, but make damn sure you're (collective) familiar
with just about every aspect of literary fiction.  I think it would be very
difficult to criticise Gibson without knowing about Burroughs, Pynchon,
Jeter[1], the entire Mickey Spillane genre, hard-sf, Kafka, etc etc....

[1] I wonder if Gibson had heard of/read Jeter before he (Gibson) started
the short stories that became Neuromancer/Burning Chrome?  I've been trying
to decipher the Jeter chronology of books.  According to the P.K. Dick
afterword, _Dr.  Adder_ was written about 1970-72.  (Assuming it was
complete when Dick read it.)  That's way before the last big "push" of s-f
(pulp or hardcore).  If Gibson wouldn't have known Jeter from a Trekkie,
then nevermind.

>>The final book? ... possibly, but somehow I doubt it.
>   The final *Sprawl* book, Gibson says, never mind the book jacket.
> And I don't doubt it.

I understood Gibson as having said that _MLO_ was definitely *it* as far as
Sprawl and other "similar" books to boot.  Anybody able to confirm?
Besides Aliens III, isn't he working on a "steampunk" book (Yet Another
Marketing Virus!) with Shirley or Sterling?  The Face had something about a
Gibson+Sterling work...they managed to misspell Sterling, if I remember
correctly...  

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Tx 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 15:03:23 GMT
From: codas!novavax!maddoxt@moss.att.com (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

>[1] I wonder if Gibson had heard of/read Jeter before he (Gibson) started
>the short stories that became Neuromancer/Burning Chrome?  I've been
>trying to decipher the Jeter chronology of books.  According to the P.K.
>Dick afterword, _Dr.  Adder_ was written about 1970-72.  (Assuming it was
>complete when Dick read it.)  That's way before the last big "push" of s-f
>(pulp or hardcore).  If Gibson wouldn't have known Jeter from a Trekkie,
>then nevermind.

   Gibson heard of Jeter around the time the books began coming out, as I
recall.  Certainly no literary influence there.  Some of the names you
mentioned earlier--le Carre, Burroughs, Pynchon--they're influences.  Also
Lou Reed, film noir, the usual.  I think there was a semi-brain-damaged
response from Gibson on this one in the interview that went into first
issue of _SF Eye_.

>I understood Gibson as having said that _MLO_ was definitely *it* as far
>as Sprawl and other "similar" books to boot.  Anybody able to confirm?

   Yes, it's confirmed.

>Besides Aliens III, isn't he working on a "steampunk" book (Yet Another
>Marketing Virus!) with Shirley or Sterling?  The Face had something about
>a Gibson+Sterling work...they managed to misspell Sterling, if I
>remember correctly...

   It's with Sterling, it's called _The Difference Engine_ (about Charles
Babbage in an alternate history), and it will be published by Bantam in
this country a bit down the road.
   Gibson's also doing the screenplay for "New Rose Hotel" for Kathryn
(sp.?) Bigelow, the director of _Near Dark_.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 7 Jun 88 12:26:07-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@r20.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

codas!novavax!maddoxt@moss.att.com (Thomas Maddox) writes:
>       "The Cyberpunk formula"?   Arrghh!!!
>    Also, with regard to the supposed "formula," what are its
>characteristics and who employs it?

I quote from the last issue of _Cheap Truth_, which was an enjoyably rabid
review/ideology rag put out by Bruce Sterling a few years ago.  The
archives are online on the SMOF bulletin board -- dialup 512-836-7663.  If
you want to find out what the cyberpunk "Movement" was all about, I suggest
reading them.  Anyway, the following satirical quote gives a good notion of
what the "formula" is:

    "Although there is no such thing as an actual cyberpunk 'ideology,' the
    term itself has become a viable subgeneric marketing category.  Our
    sources in publishing assure us that the use of the term 'cyberpunk' in
    cover blurbs guarantees a modest, but solid sales increase, which may
    be useful to younger, less established writers.

    "A SFAW member in good standing has prepared a helpful beginners'
    manual, 'Cyberpunk: What It Means, How to Write It,' which will include
    a glossary of useful subgenre jargon, such as 'wetware,' 'retrofit,'
    'download,' and 'biohazard.'  Other chapters will analyze typical
    cyberpunk plot structures, including tips on how to have the antihero
    lose the girl in the end without being too downbeat.  Younger SFAW
    members should consult their agents as to whether they too can profit
    by joining this flashy, but flimsy bandwagon."

The problem is that a cyberpunk formula *has* developed out of the work of
Gibson.  I've read a couple of novels lately (_When Gravity Fails_ by
Effinger and _Dreams of Flesh and Sand_ by Quick) that take the superficial
trappings of _Neuromancer_ like the technology, the future "history," and
punkish posturings while maintaining the insipid, Analog-style
characterizations that have long-plagued bad SF.

If there's anything of value in the ideas that one associates with
cyberpunk, it's the iconoclasm towards SF conventions and the obsession of
the dynamics of the evolution of technology and of man.  For good examples
of this, there's Gibson's _Neuromancer_, Sterling's _Schismatrix_, Rucker's
_Software_, and Swanwick's _Vacuum Flowers_.

       Pretty quickly the whole thing degenerates into "yes it is/no it's
    not" shouting and jumping up and down.  So . . . if you want to
    criticize Gibson's work, early or late, take it on its own merits,
    which are considerable, and never mind all the cant, hyperbole, and
    marketing brain-grease about "cyberpunk."

While it would be nice to consider every book only in terms of itself,
nothing is written in a vacuum, and labels such as "cyberpunk" are a
valuable tool for sorting out the relations among books.  The trick is to
avoid just arguing about what labels go with what books.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 18:54:18 GMT
From: robynt@sco.com (Robyn Tarter)
Subject: Patricia McKillip/RiddleMaster

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
>>1) The world of Patricia McKillip's _Riddle-Master of Hed_ trilogy.
>>Apart from the fact that the books themselves are a work of art, the
>>world is fascinating.  And anybody can go to Caithnard to study
>>Riddle-mastery, so it doesn't matter who I start out as.
>
>Someone actually liked this series?

I enjoyed it, though not quite as much as other books by her (especially
_Forgotten Beasts Of Eld_ & _Fools Run_).  My feeling with her books, &
with most books in general, is that there is something in the style (or the
syntax, or whatever) that you either connect with or don't.

I know there are some books that I can read over & over, and lose myself in
the language, the way the book is written, as well as the plot.  Certain
authors just seem to have the ability to write in a way that touches
something in me....  Part of it seems to be the setting of a mood that
intrigues me, or that I enjoy, and something about the sense of humor and
wit.... The	difference to me between a good -or even great- book and
one I can get lost in, that I enjoy re-reading until it becomes part of my
inner library of resources....  Anyone else care to comment, or share some
books you feel that way about?  (A couple other authors that affect me this
way are John Varley and Elizabeth Lynn)

Robyn Tarter
PO Box 43
Capitola CA 95010
408-476-3422
robynt@sco.COM
...!{uunet,ihnp4,decvax!microsoft,ucbvax!ucscc}!sco!robynt

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 88 00:06:20 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: Riddlemaster (was Re: Choose Your Universe!)

I, too, must vote strongly FOR the Riddle-Master series.  I read it in
college (I bought the First Edition hardbacks, based upon her earlier
works).

I feel the series is far superior to most of the fantasy that's been
published in the last 10 years.

It was probably listed in the children's section, because all of her work
up to that time was "children's" literature (although very enjoyable by an
adult).  Check out "The Throme of the Eril of Sherril" (not sure of the
spelling) and the "Forgotten Beasts of Eld".  I read "Beasts" first (also
in hardcover) based entirely upon a review of it in Analog by Spider
Robinson.  I think as highly of Spider as a book reviewer as I do a writer.
He also put me onto "The Princess Bride".  If you haven't read it, DO SO.
The movie was fun, but the book is on a level with Tolkien, Dune, and Edgar
Pangborn's "Davy" (what, you HAVEN'T read "Davy"????? What's the matter
with you????  Come to think of it, Spider put me onto "Davy", too!!!).
Don't get me wrong!  All of those books are COMPLETELY different, but
they're of a very similar QUALITY.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 88 09:50:51 GMT
From: samdixon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam Dixon III)
Subject: Re: Reference to a story about a tesseract?

stiller@bu-cs.bu.edu (Lewis Stiller) writes:
>Many years I read a short story the general plot of which involved a child
>who acquired a 4-dimensional toy. Adults were unable to fathom it, but he
>became ever more engrossed in his toy; I believe eventually he left for
>another dimension or galaxy or something.  			

The title is "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and it was published under the name
of Lewis Padgett in 1943.

This pen-name was used by Henry Kuttner and his wife C.L.Moore.  Generally
work under this name was collaborative, but many people agree that almost
anything either of them did after their marriage had some degree of
collaboration.  The story has more of the feel of Kuttner, but still, some
of Moore's sense of unearthliness creeps in.

Sorry to be picky, but C.L.Moore has always been one of my favorite science
fiction writers since I was in fifth grade and came across a copy of
Northwest of Earth.  If anyone has not read these stories, I think they are
all in print in an Ace collection called Northwest Smith, which came out in
hardcover as Scarlet Dream.

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 15:00:47 GMTF
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Reference to a story about a tesseract?

   I'm posting, rather than e-mailing, because I love this story. It's
called "Mimsy Were the Borogoves", and I can't remember the author's name,
but it appears in "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Vol. I", edited by
Robert Silverberg. It's an old story: the stories in this book range in
date from 1938 ("A Martian Odyssey", another of my favorites) to 1965
(Zelazny's "A Rose for Ecclesiastes").

Story synopsis and spoilers follow:

   A scientist in another dimension invents a device for interdimensional
projection of some sort. Needing items to project, he raids his son's
toychest. Some things go through, but don't come back, and he gets
discouraged.

   One batch is found by a young boy (about eight?) who takes them home and
plays with them. One of them is the toy tesseract mentioned above.  The boy
and his little sister learn to use them, since their minds are not
constrained by any pre-conceived physics (the toys do numerous
non-Newtonian, non-Euclidean things), while adults cannot understand them.
The final scene is really eerie, as the father realizes something is wrong,
rushes upstairs, and sees his children forever fading out of this
dimension, reciting a revised version of Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky".

   We then shift scenes to the Lewis Carroll and a young girl, who have
apparently found the *other* objects projected through time/space/dimen-
sions. He asks her to tell him the rhyme again, and she begins reciting the
word which later became "Jabberwocky".

   The conclusion, which is left to the reader, is that Carroll and friend
received the instruction manual for the toys that the other children found,
and he edited it into his nonsense poem.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 8 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 201

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Heinlein (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 16:33:02 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism

dachurch@athena.mit.edu (Douglas A. Church) writes:
>P.S.  I seem to be the only person in the world who *liked* his recent
>books,

Nope...you're not.

>  ...I feel facism [sic] and utopian socialism are very large elements of
>Heinlein's books.

Thank you for prefacing this with "I feel."  Most of the posters (on both
sides!) in this discussion have been rather shy of evidence for their
points of view.  No problem; I can handle opinions.  I'm irritated,
however, that both the "Heinlein is a fascist" and the "Heinlein is a cool
dude" elements present their opinions as absolute fact, handed down from on
high.

To treat one's own opinions as absolute fact is the beginning of a form of
intellectual fascism.

>  I agree that he casts his characters strongly based on sex, but I seem
>  to remember many of the males speaking of the ability to make babies as
>  good, in an envious way.

   "In any society where women have achieved true equality, they've gotten
   the raw end of the deal.  What they are, and what they can do, makes
   them infinitely superior to any man."
      --Lazarus Long
      (quoted from memory, so exact wording may be off)

This is, of course, a form of "sexism" in and of itself.  But there is
sexism, and there is sexism, and I want to argue that Heinlein's attitude
toward the difference between the sexes was, in many ways, admirable.

First of all, however, I want to demolish one myth: the myth of the
"impossibly perfect Heinlein woman."  This woman exists, and I have met
her; her name is Virginia Heinlein.  If I gave you the details of Virginia
Heinlein's career, both before and after marrying Robert A., most of you
wouldn't believe me.  Some of her accomplishments -- not, by any means, all
- -- are discussed in the various nonfictional pieces in EXPANDED UNIVERSE,
which book is essential reading to anyone who, like me, has the gall to
think they can characterize Heinlein in writing.

Very well, then; Heinlein thought that if there was any superiority between
the sexes, then it was on the side of women.  The quote from the "Notebooks
of Lazarus Long" given above is only one of many similar statements that
can be given from his texts, fictional and non-.

Where, then, does his sexism lie?

He did not believe that women should be denied anything given to men.  He
spoke out on several occasions (e.g., a speech made at Octocon in 197- -- I
don't remember the year, but it was the first Octocon) in favor of "equal
pay for equal work" for everyone, regardless of race, creed, sex, etc.
Not, please note, "equal pay for equal worth" -- that being a judgement
call -- or "equal pay for equal time," as one individual's time is
manifestly more productive and valuable to the employer than another's.

He was thirteen years old when the Nineteenth Amendment gave women the
right to vote.  He never spoke against females in politics; indeed, he
suggested (semi?)  seriously in EXPANDED UNIVERSE that men be denied
suffrage and public service for a century or two, just to see if women
might not do a better job than the botch we men have made of things.

The purpose of mentioning Heinlein's time of birth -- and his midwestern
upbringing, which I have now mentioned -- is to observe that he had a
strong early educational bias in favor of traditional roles; his time in
the U.S.  Naval Academy and in the officers' corps of the U.S. Navy surely
reinforced that system strongly.

That he was able to make the statements that he did at all -- and to do so
so frequently -- is the sign of a mind genuinely searching and
reconsidering values and beliefs, not the sign of a reactionary mind
defending dearly-held traditions.

(It is, incidentally, this searching and reconsidering rather than any
specific political belief that a genuinely open mind takes away from a
Heinlein novel.  He wrote a dozen novels for children, most of which had
little or no overt political content, but all of which inculcate the value
of thinking for yourself rather than accepting what Everyone Knows.)

Some of his female characterization was poor, I grant you.  I can barely
stomach the first few paragraphs of the fourth chapter of "--the Number of
the Beast!"  But these, again, were signs of his personal experience rather
than his prejudices.  (Indeed, I should not be the least bit surprised to
learn that this segment was in some measure reflective of Mrs. Heinlein's
thoughts on the morning after her wedding.)

Again and again, then, where does sexism lie in Heinlein?

In extensive reading and re-reading of Heinlein, I can find only two things
that justify this claim.

The first is that, in STARSHIP TROOPERS as elsewhere, Heinlein does not let
females join his M.I. (Mobile Infantry).  Several reasons are given for
this in the course of the book; but the final justification seems to be
that men are expendable and women aren't.

A "sexist" attitude, certainly.  But:

1) Heinlein's mind continued to search.  In later years, though he may not
   have verbally repudiated this point of view, he shows women fighting
   alongside men with no comment to imply that this is anything other than
   the normal state of affairs for that culture.

2) STARSHIP TROOPERS is based on an ethics derived from evolution,
    certainly no stranger a foundation for an ethics than many others that
    have been used in the real world.  In such an ethics, it is abundantly
    clear that child- bearing women are far less "expendable" than
    seed-carrying men.

Thus, I can not accept this as evidence for Heinlein's soi-disant "sexism."

What remains is that Heinlein acknowledges that there are differences,
beyond the grossest biological differences, between the sexes.  He does not
claim that they are the single-and-sole determining characteristic in a
male or female personality; rather, he allows sex to be one of many
determining physical factors that contribute to a human personality.

The people who accuse Heinlein of sexism are offended because they do not
wish to acknowledge the existence of typical psychological differences
between men and women.  I note that it is more men than women who argue
this point-of-view; which doesn't surprise me in the least; men have
existed t the top of a sexist society all their lives and tend to become
fanatics when they become aware of the situation at all.  Women, on the
other hand, even the most extreme feminists -- the ones (and they do exist)
who take feminism to the point where it takes on qualities of
female-supremacist sexism -- know better.  "Men do this."  "Men are like
that."  These statements are firmly based in a substratum that acknowledges
sexual differences and claims that they are significant enough to be
meaningfully characterized.

The folks who want the differences between the sexes to disappear
completely are not only self-delusionary; they are, in my opinion,
dangerous to human freedom.  Such an attitude spreads quickly from simple
sexual differences to many other kinds of difference between people, and
would, finally, leave us with a mass of generic people with no personality
differences whatever.

I don't think anyone on the net would argue in favor of such a situation.

But I think some of you hold attitudes that, unexamined, could all too
easily lead to such a situation.

dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 01:11:38 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

jeff@aiva.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton):

>>First, the rape. This has been dealt with elsewhere, and I'll only
>>comment that many of the people I talked to about this finally agreed due
>>to her "upbringing" (doxy training) and her agent training she probably
>>*would* have the "lie back and enjoy it" attitude.
>
>So she'd have that attitude.  But what bothers some people is precisely
>that the heroine of the novel has such an attitude, not that there's no
>explanation for it in the novel, or that the explanation is unconvincing.
>Why create such a character at all?  There may be a convincing
>justification, but no one has bothered to give it.

To quote from another author:

"I sometimes think you know Dragaerans better than other Dragaerans do,
Boss."  

"I do.  And that's because I'm not one."

My belief on what's going on in FRIDAY:

Heinlein deliberately created a person who was *not* an ordinary member of
society, for the express purpose of having a main character who could study
her society from the outside and show it to us in ways that a character
inside society could not.  Sexual mores are a more obvious way of
demonstrating a difference -- hence the rape scene, to rub it in our noses
that Friday doesn't have the outlook of a "normal" person.

>>Sorry, but while I'll agree that a woman shouldn't be forced to become a
>>housewife and mother, I see no reason why it should be *wrong* for one to
>>decide to become one!!!

>They may not claim it is wrong, only a somewhat unfortunate choice.  And,
>finally, it is not clear that it *is* just as sexist to say a woman should
>avoid one choice -- being a housewife -- as to say that she should avoid
>all other choices.

Dare I raise the point that, *as* *an* *outsider*, even the so-called
"unfortunate" choices will look good to Friday -- precisely because they
are *inside*.  (Considering the kind of family she opted into, she can't
get much more "inside" than she did.)  Then again, since the "outsider"
thesis was obviously rejected by everyone in this newsgroup, I'd like to
know exactly what I missed.

Brandon S. Allbery
{well!hoptoad,uunet!marque,cbosgd,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 03:37:40 GMT
From: manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

Caj Zell <d2c-czl@luth.luth.se> writes:
>I'm not a real sf-fan but sometimes I like to read some, and once I read
>"The door into summer" and I loved it. So, I bought another one, I don't
>remember the name (maybe "Doublestar"), it was about an actor who was
>asked to play the part of a president.I didn't like that one at all. So, I
>assume that he has some varying quality in his work, and that's why I'm
>asking you to give me some recommendations on good books by Robert A
>Heinlein.

Well, since "Double Star" is one of my two favourite books by Heinlein
("Citizen of the Galaxy" is the other), probably my opinions won't help
Caj. I've personfully resisted the Heinlein debate, but here goes.

Heinlein wrote for money. Sometimes what he wrote was very good (the two I
mentioned above, plus "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress") and sometimes it was
execrable ("Time Enough For Love"). The juveniles (published nowadays by
Del Rey) range from so-so ("Space Cadet", "Rocket Ship Galileo") to very
good indeed ("Citizen of the Galaxy", "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel"), and
are pretty good places to start. Of course, the definitive Heinlein is the
Future History series, which can be found in an omnibus volume, "The Past
Through Tomorrow" (I think).

Heinlein was not a particularly good writer (try Jack Vance or Ursula
Leguin if you want good writing), but when he wanted to, he could tell a
damn good story. I could even recommend "Starship Troopers" on plot, though
I find the politics objectionable.

That's at the heart of my problem with Heinlein. More than many writers, he
manipulates the situation to prove the point he's clearly stated. That
tends to lead to propaganda, rather than good stories. I've never decided
whether that comes from ineptitude or sloppiness (Tolstoy wrote "War and
Peace" to prove a point, too) I've never figured out. I have found each
Heinlein since "Time Enough For Love" very unsatisfying, though.

Alexei Panshin, in "Heinlein In Dimension", says that Heinlein uses the
same characters over and over again. There's the Young Hero, the Parent,
and so on (I can't remember Panshin's names--it's been 20 years). Great
Literature does exactly the same thing, but less obviously. (Incidentally,
my favourite burlesque of Heinlein's writing is "The Commander looked at me
bleakly, and said, 'there's only enough air for two of us. What do you
think we should do?' So I threw Smith out of the airlock; no loss, since he
didn't know tensor calculus anyway.")

All this leads to my Heinlein Rule: try anything he's written--some of it
is bound to be good; if you don't like one book, try another.

Vincent Manis
Department of Computer Science
University of British Columbia
manis@cs.ubc.ca
manis@cs.ubc.cdn
manis@ubc.csnet
{ihnp4!alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!manis

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 02:06:50 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

Caj writes:
>remember the name (maybe "Doublestar"), it was about an actor who was
>asked to play the part of a president.I didn't like that one at all. So, I
>assume that he has some varying quality in his work,

Yes, his work does vary. Interesting thing about "Double Star" in
particular, though. The first time I read it, I didn't like it.  I re-read
it about five years later, and I noticed some things I hadn't noticed
before that were very intriguing. In particular I liked the phenomonal
ability of the actor who was the protagonist. This was somewhat
underplayed, and his matching level of conceit masks it also, but he is
*such* a good actor that I'd actually place this book in the list of books
about "supermen" we've been discussing recently, even though it's a very
nontraditional ability to categorize thusly.

The ending of the book also raises some very interesting, and very deep
questions about exactly what identity is, and what is personality. Again,
this is underplayed, but interested me enough that I read it a third and a
fourth time just for these issues.  It got more interesting to me each
time, and I now consider it one of his best books! Talk about a
sleeper...Still, many people would disagree with me about this. Based on my
experience, I suggest giving it two readings (not one right after the
other, of course).

>and that's why I'm asking you to give me some recommendations on good
>books by Robert A Heinlein.

Ok: be sure to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", a fabulous book.
Another must is the short story collection "The Green Hills of Earth".
My personal favorite is "Time Enough for Love"; although not *everyone*
likes this, it is very popular in general. As for the rest of his books,
well, I like them *all* to varying degrees, and have read them all
many times over, but it's certainly a matter of taste. "Stranger
in a Strange Land" is widely considered a classic. "Starship Troopers"
won a Hugo (and a Nebula?) as did T.M.I.A.H.M. and S.I.A.S.L. I also
really like the collections "The Menace from Earth" and "Assignment in
Eternity".

Of his remaining books, about five or so are his latest works, which
are controversial due to sexual mores, and then there's maybe fifteen
"juvenile" science fiction novels, which not everyone likes because
they're written for "juveniles". I *will* say that they're much better
than most books that are supposedly written for adult audiences, and
that they're far above the "So You Want to be a Spaceman" type of
thing (like Asimov's Lucky Starr junk).

I am very sorry he died; he profoundly influenced my thinking and
provided me with vast amounts entertainment over the years.

Be sure to try writers other than Heinlein, by the way. David Brin, for
instance, is one of today's finest writers, especially the trilogy
"Sundiver", "Startide Rising", and "The Uplift War". Also his "The Postman"
won quite a few awards, and for good reason.

The novelette The Persistence of Vision, by John Varley (published in a
book by the same name) was another award winner that I found quite moving.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 9 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 202

Today's Topics:

      Books - Asprin & Brin & Eddings & Palmer & Zelazny (11 msgs) &
              Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials (2 msgs)
              Story Request Answered (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 13:39:00 GMT
From: Theodore A. Morris  (IMSGTAM at UCCCVM1)
Subject: Questions about Aspirin's Myth Series

I really enjoy the digest via BITNET and share the listings with my wife, a
librarian, who shares them with HER patrons.  They get a wide circulation.

One patron asks,
"In Robert Aspirin's Myth Series, who (what) was the blue gremlin following
Ajax around (and why for 200 years)?  Also, what did Gleep, the baby
dragon, discuss in the middle of the Battlefield and why did the adults
back off from Gleep?"

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 14:54:18 GMT
From: rennolet@cxcad.dec.com
Subject: Brin information request.

Is there any information on future works in Brin's uplift universe?
Possible publication date(s) would be great, but any thing on Brin's
intentions would be fine.

Thanks,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 20:12:02 GMT
From: src-2di@thoth30.berkeley.edu
Subject: David Eddings

   When is Edding's third book going to be released?  I finished the second
book and I can't wait for the next one to come out.

   I believe that Sadi is a woman dressed as a man (i.e. Viola in
Shakespeare's Twelfth Night).  I also think that Sadi is the "Man who is no
Man" because the voice that is always in Garion's mind told him that Sadi
had to be included in the group and if Sadi is a woman then this title
would make sense.

   I may be way off in this point but I believe that the Child of Dark may
be a demon.  For one thing, we know that if Geran is sacrificed, the Child
of Dark will become so powerful that nothing can destroy it.  Since demons
are pretty powerful creatures already because Aldur and Polgara had to
combine their powers to banish the demon in the second book, perhaps the
sacrifice may conjure up an even more powerful demon.

Just guessing,

Dave 

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 14:54:18 GMT
From: rennolet@cxcad.dec.com
Subject: Palmer information request.

I would like to get a pointer to a list of Palmer's ( Emergence? ) present
works and any thing on planned work.

Thanks,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 04:42:32 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

   I don't know if this is common knowledge but I noticed that a minor
character named "Roger" appears in one of the books.  I don't remember
which particular book, but it's in the first series.  Corwin is going down
to the chamber where the Pattern resides and on his way down, he picks up a
lantern, courtesy of "Roger".  "Roger" is writing a fantasy book, in fact.
Corwin asks him if it'll be a happy romance or a cynical all-dies story,
and "Roger" replies that that isn't fair, and that he's actually writing
"fantasy with some metaphysics involved" (don't remember the exact words).

   Is this Zelazny himself or what?!

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP:  {rutgers, att, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet:   vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet:       swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 15:55:32 GMT
From: russell@eneevax.uucp (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

tom@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (tom uffner) writes:
>>Wasn't it mentioned in The Courts Of Chaos that only 3 generations [from
>>Dworkin] can walk the pattern?  This implies that Merlin, Martin,
>
>actually i believe it was 8 generations, this would account for dara but

Could someone please point out where in "The Courts of Chaos" (or whatever
book it is mentioned in) that this generation limit is mentioned?  It would
help if you specified what was going on at the time and who was talking to
whom.  I never remember seeing anything like that.

It is my understanding that the descendants of the inscriber of the pattern
may walk the pattern, regardless of when they were born.  Hence, only
Corwin and Merlin may walk Merlin's pattern, but everyone else that we know
of from the House of Amber, excluding Dworkin himself, may walk the pattern
inscribed by Oberon, or any of it's shadow patterns.

Which brings up two new questions: Does Corwin's pattern cast Rebma/ Tir'na
N'goth/Basement of Amber shadows anywhere?  If so, where?  And 2) is
Dworkin still alive?  He was at the end of the first series.  Could he be
involved in any of this?

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.eng.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 15:42:19 GMT
From: russell@eneevax.uucp (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes:
>>>>Who sent the whatchamacallit that's been hitching a free ride in
>>>>all of these people's bodies trying to protect Merlin?  Why is it
>>>>that Mandor won't tell Merlin?
>>
>>I think its the physical body of his magical strangling cord.
>
>Well, I thought of a particularly amusing way to explain this - what if
>Mandor himself set the beast to watch over Merlin.  Unfortunately, this
>kind of ironic twist is not very Zelazny-ish, so I doubt it's true, but it
>would be funny considering that Merlin asked him for help in this.

Actually, this may not be so far-fetched.  It would explain how Mandor was
able to identify and subdue the creature so quickly.  Merlin couldn't
figure out what it was, but Mandor just took one look at it and *zap* he
had out his little silver balls and was controlling it.  Kind of an
interesting coincidence, wouldn't you say?

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.eng.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 18:37:08 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (tom uffner)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

russell@eneevax.umd.edu.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes:
>It is my understanding that the descendants of the inscriber of the
>pattern may walk the pattern, regardless of when they were born.  Hence,
>only Corwin and Merlin may walk Merlin's pattern, but everyone else that
>we know of from the House of Amber, excluding Dworkin himself, may walk
>the pattern inscribed by Oberon, or any of it's shadow patterns.

Amber's pattern was in fact inscribed by Dworkin, though Oberon repaired
it.  The gereration limit was more of a theory than a fact, I think. I think
it may have been brought up when Corwin trumped from the cell to Dworkin's
library and Dworkin mistook him for Oberon.

>Which brings up two new questions: Does Corwin's pattern cast Rebma/
>Tir'na N'goth/Basement of Amber shadows anywhere?  If so, where?

Only Corwin knows, everyone else needs a magic mirror or similar spell to
even see it.  'Tis likely though.  Corwin's Amber is probably a bit more
Avalon and Earth flavored than the original, due to his personal tastes.

>And 2) is Dworkin still alive?  He was at the end of the first series.
>Could he be involved in any of this?

He is certainly alive and probably even sane.

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 20:25:33 GMT
From: RLWALD@pucc.princeton.edu (Robert L. Wald)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

hirai@swatsun.uucp (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>I don't know if this is common knowledge but I noticed that a minor
>character named "Roger" appears in one of the books.  I don't remember
>which particular book, but it's in the first series.  Corwin is going down
>to the chamber where the Pattern resides and on his way down, he picks up
>a lantern, courtesy of "Roger".  "Roger" is writing a fantasy book, in
>fact.  Corwin asks him if it'll be a happy romance or a cynical all-dies
>story, and "Roger" replies that that isn't fair, and that he's actually
>writing "fantasy with some metaphysics involved" (don't remember the exact
>words).
>
>Is this Zelazny himself or what?!
  
   Yes, its a self-reference. Though he probably doesn't actually work in a
dungeon.
 
Rob Wald
Bitnet: RLWALD@PUCC.BITNET
Uucp: {ihnp4|allegra}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!RLWALD
Arpa: RLWALD@PUCC.Princeton.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 88 20:26:40 GMT
From: austin@sun.uucp (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Zelazny did write himself into the novel

Eiji "A.G." Hirai writes:
>Corwin is going down to the chamber where the Pattern resides and on his
>way down, he picks up a lantern, courtesy of "Roger".  "Roger" is writing
>a fantasy book, in fact.  [...]  Is this Zelazny himself or what?!

I was at a Con in Phoenix circa 1973-1975 in which Zelazny was the guest
speaker. During his speech, he mentioned that he included himself in one of
the Amber novels as a dungeon keeper who was also a part time writer. Note
that "Roger" also smoked a pipe as does Zelazny.

I probably never would have noticed it if he hadn't pointed it out.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 16:43:52 GMT
From: dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio)
Subject: Re: Amber (Was Choose your Universe) (SPOILERS)

Steve Murphy@mdbs.MDBS writes:
> In "Signs of Chaos" we are lead to believe that the Pattern may be
> sentient, if it is then it would be possible for the Pattern to remember
> the original genetic pattern of the author and then be able to recognize
> his/her descendents.

Oh, wow.  This made the idea pop into my head that the thing that's been
following Merlin around, poping from body to body, is somehow Corwin's
pattern.  Unlikely but interesting.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 21:46:38 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM writes:
>Wasn't it mentioned in The Courts Of Chaos that only 3 generations 
>[from Dworkin] can walk the pattern? 
 
>I think in the next book, Corwin and his pattern will have to come into
>the plot.  

   I think that Dworkin was merely noting that the ability had persisted
*at least* that far.  He didn't know how much longer it would continue to
manifest, if it ever failed to...

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 17:26:58 GMT
From: Cate3.osbunorth@xerox.com
Subject: How did Julia gain her powers - a theory

     One solution which I think fits all the facts is Julia is Corwin's
offspring.  Remember Corwin was on our Earth from the Black Plague to
current times.  This would give her the potential.  Then maybe somehow
Rinaldo recognized Julia as being an Amberite and had her walk the pattern.
This would also give the tie for Julia taking out Rinaldo's mother.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 18:50:27 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (tom uffner)
Subject: Re: How did Julia gain her powers - a theory

Cate3.osbunorth@XEROX.COM writes:
>     One solution which I think fits all the facts is Julia is Corwin's
>offspring.  Remember Corwin was on our earth from the Black Plague to
>current

Yes, this idea has occurred to me also.

>times.  This would give her the potential.  Then maybe somehow Rinaldo
>recognized Julia as being an Amberite and had her walk the pattern.  This
>would also give the tie for Julia taking out Rinaldo's mother.

This doesn't quite fit.  She doesn't seem to be using pattern magic. She is
a sorceress and is attuned to the powers of the font at the keep. Her style
seems chaotic, if anything. she probably hasn't taken either the pattern or
the logrus, but has quite a bit of potential and maybe learned some of the
art from Jurt. Remember Merlin's comment about Mask's sorcery being sloppy
and just a lot of raw power?

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{ihnp4,unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 21:16:39 GMT
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: Amber (* SPOILER WARNING *)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>I find the Logrus much more intriguing than the Pattern, mainly because so
>little has been said about it. Now, if Zelazny really wanted to make me
>happy :-), he'd start a whole new series giving the events of the original
>books from the viewpoint of a Chaotic!

Of course, given the differing rates[1] of time passage at the Courts vs.
Amber, a single novel of the new 'series' should cover the interval
occupied by the eight books published so far!

[1] According to Corwin's first visit to Chaos in the first series; though
I don't believe Z was consistent about whose time passed faster.

JBL
BBN Communications Corporation
50 Moulton Street
Cambridge, MA  02238
(617) 873-3463
UUCP: {backbone}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 16:14:52 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Bartlett's Guide

I was looking through a book called _Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials_
in the bookstore the other day, and noticed that the Overlords, from
Clarke's _Childhood's End_ are shown with 5 fingers and 2 thumbs on each
hand, so it must work for them. Was this ever mentioned in Clarke's book,
or did the artist make it up?

On the subject of _Bartlett's Guide_, has anyone else looked at it? It's
interesting, but it doesn't have a lot of substance. And as is often the
case, it's somewhat disappointing to see that your own concept of something
is totally unlike what the creator meant (assuming that Barlowe's
portrayals are accurate).

One bit of stupidity I noticed was for the Guild Steersman. They are
referred to as an alien race whose origin is a mystery! Also, the author
shows one wearing a tool belt, but describes them as living in tanks of
hallucinogenic gas. Melange isn't a hallucinogen, is it? And why would a
being who lives in a tank need to carry tools?

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 00:09:21 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Barlowe's Guide (was Re: Supermen)

 granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
> On the subject of _Barlowe's Guide_, has anyone else looked at it? It's
> interesting, but it doesn't have a lot of substance. And as is often the
> case, it's somewhat disappointing to see that your own concept of
> something is totally unlike what the creator meant (assuming that
> Barlowe's portrayals are accurate).

_Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials_ is one of my favorite books of sf
art.  I was very impressed by Wayne Barlowe, who had the book published
when he was about 20!  (He's been married to editor Shawna McCarthy since
the early '80s---they just had their first child.)

I haven't read all of the books containing the aliens that Barlowe
illustrated.  He probably took a few liberties.  I particularly liked the
Overlords, and his "scale of the creatures."

Barlowe seems to be one of those creative people who did outstanding work
very early, and never seem to have done anything that approaches the
initial work since.  He's a good artist, and he does an occasional cover,
but I haven't since much out of him in years.

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
harvard!anvil!es!mann
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 13:23:00 GMT
From: frodo@bradley.uucp
Subject: Re: HELP

>   Help! Can anyone with a long memory remember a story in which someone
>wakes up from a dream, goes on with life, gets into big trouble, wakes up
>(it turns out what he thought was real life was a dream), goes on with
>life, gets into trouble, wakes up (ditto), ad infinitum, never knowing
>whether his current experience is real or not?
>
>   My guess is that the story was written by Robert Sheckley or maybe
>Frederic Brown, whom I used to read a lot of a long time ago.

There's a novel called "Knight of Delusions" which is a hard-boiled
detective story with the aforementioned problem.  He keeps waking up in
different realities and trying to fight his way back to one that he can
believe in.  The reason for the madness is that aliens are trying to take
over his planet, and he's the only one (or one of the few) who know
ANYTHING about what's up...they're trying to confuse him so he can't stop
them.

As for the author, I think it was Keith Laumer (or something like that).

It's a very fun piece of work, if you like shifting reality confusions.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 19:07:26 GMT
From: NU043982@ndsuvm1.bitnet (Patrick Hoggard)
Subject: Re: HELP

>   Help! Can anyone with a long memory remember a story in which someone
>wakes up from a dream, goes on with life, gets into big trouble, wakes up
>(it turns out what he thought was real life was a dream), goes on with
>life, gets into trouble, wakes up (ditto), ad infinitum, never knowing
>whether his current experience is real or not?
>
>   My guess is that the story was written by Robert Sheckley or maybe
>Frederic Brown, whom I used to read a lot of a long time ago.

I want to thank the several people on the net who suggested a number of
stories with approximately this plot, and especially Brian Epstein, who
actually remembered the one I was thinking of, which was "Mind Partner" by
Christopher Anvil, which appeared in a collection bearing the same name
edited by H.L. Gold in 1961 (Pocket Books), following publication in Galaxy
a couple of years before.

Pat Hoggard

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 9 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 203

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 21:23:27 GMT
From: yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism

At some point during the current Heinlein war, I read To Sail Beyond The
Sunset.  I found his portrayal of a woman born in the late 1800's to be
reasonable: to fit the society as I believe it was.  I found that this book
was surprisingly not sexist.  In fact, there is a two-page discussion by
Maureen on sexism in the middle of the 20th century in which she concludes
that women have been attempting to gain rights, and have been granted them
on paper but not in actuality.  Her example is that she, a director of a
large company, standing in a lobby before the director's meeting, is
ordered to hang up the coat of another director (male), who is rushing so
as not to be late to the meeting.  She refuses, and is greeted by rage from
the other director, who didn't recognize her.  And then when she takes her
seat in the meeting she is greeted by a whole new set of emotions from him.
This was an example of how women were treated by society: women were
"subordinate until proven equal."  I take this as a comment on our current
society, where similar attitudes exist.

Sure, her early life is full of sexist behavior, and acceptance of that
sexism by Maureen, but that was the late 19th and early 20th century.  By
later in the century she had grown as the society had superficially
changed, and she demonstrated that the society had not really changed.

Heinlein is obviously confused on the issue of sexism, as he can do the
above, yet his female characters are also let's-get-into-bed types who
value femininity, chivalry, and motherhood, which sometimes is considered a
hallmark of sexism.

Judy Anderson
(415)329-8400
edsel!yduJ@labrea.stanford.edu
...!sun!edsel!yduJ

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 04:57:39 GMT
From: roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

OK, I can grant that Friday, that character set up by Heinlein, can regard
rape as another form of physical assault.  I think that the evidence that
others have posted (the treatment of artificial people, the way she has to
hide her status) has already done a number on her head, that she feels
already violated and assaulted and that one more invasion won't hurt.  This
makes sense to me.

However, I still don't understand why people insist that for other people,
in reality, that rape should only be regarded as another form of assault.
Given the testimony of women who have been raped, given the emotional
turmoil they (and the men who have been raped), this is NOT the case in the
real world.

So why are people still saying this on the net?  Why should I believe this
statement when the reality seems to say different?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 16:52:57 GMT
From: schmitz@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU (Donald Schmitz)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:
>However, I still don't understand why people insist that for other people,
>in reality, that rape should only be regarded as another form of assault.
>Given the testimony of women who have been raped, given the emotional
>turmoil they (and the men who have been raped), this is NOT the case in
>the real world.

Look carefully at what you have just written, you have answered your own
question.  People here are saying that the VICTIM, SHOULD (or at least it
may be a good idea to) regard rape as simply another form of assault, NOT
that this is what actually happens.

From an unemotional viewpoint, how is rape so different from being beaten
up by a bunch of punks because your skin was the wrong color for the
neighborhood your car broke down in?  Both are physical attacks against
your will.  Both leave you with a sense of being violated, of never being
safe with anyone, in any place again.  However being beaten up or mugged
seems to be considered merely an unfortunate part of everyday urban life (I
don't agree with it, but it seems to be the norm).

This seems to be a more healthy attitude for the victim, rather than the
continuing sense of shame, hate, self-blame, etc that occurs in rape.  This
is what the net has been saying, that given that the rape has occurred, the
victim should treat it as a physical attack, by a criminal, out of their,
control, and get on with thier life.  I don't think anyone has said that
the crime itself is not serious, and that the perpetrator doesn't deserve
whatever he gets (in my opinion mugging/physical assault should be
considered just as bad as rape, and carry the same penalty).

Don Schmitz
schmitz@fas.ri.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 88 00:59:05 GMT
From: kim@wayne.uucp (Kim Helliwell)
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
> Ok: be sure to read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", a fabulous book.
> Another must is the short story collection "The Green Hills of Earth".
> My personal favorite is "Time Enough for Love"; although not *everyone*
> likes this, it is very popular in general. As for the rest of his books,
> well, I like them *all* to varying degrees, and have read them all many
> times over, but it's certainly a matter of taste. "Stranger in a Strange
> Land" is widely considered a classic. "Starship Troopers" won a Hugo (and
> a Nebula?) as did T.M.I.A.H.M. and S.I.A.S.L. I also really like the
> collections "The Menace from Earth" and "Assignment in Eternity".

And earlier he was talking about Double Star, and how it was better with
the second reading.  The point of this posting is that R.A.H. got a Hugo
for Double Star, as well as for the three Doug mentions.

I just re-read Double Star (for the fourth (fifth?) time), and I second
Doug's comments about the discussion of identity.  The ending really is
full of Pathos, in that the actor really ends up not quite knowing who he
is (although I don't think he is really unhappy, just confused).  This is
really an amazing feat in the book, since on one level it is a "boy meets
girl--boy gets girl" story, and should really be a "happy" ending, but you
really end up ambivalent, not sure whether to feel sorry for the
protagonist or glad for him.

One general comment here: no matter how much people on this forum rage and
fume about Heinlein's philosophical meanderings (which I admit can be
pretty maddening at times!) the man is one of those authors who really
could spin a yarn and keep you engrossed--a phenomenon which has little to
do with "mainstream literary quality."  I am riveted by H's stories, even
on the second and third and fourth and . . . readings, and I find something
new in many of them that I didn't see earlier readings.  They wear well.
In that sense, they may not be "great" literature (but we really won't know
for about 100 or so years, will we?), but they are good literature.

For example, I really hated Job, and felt horribly threatened by the
conclusions (since I am, or try to be, a Christian), but I could NOT put it
down.  I bought it one day, started it at lunch, and went to it with a will
after dinner, and didn't go to bed until I finished it (say about 1:00
A.M.).  Very few authors have the ability to do that to me!  And I STILL
don't care for his conclusions about God or Satan!

Kim Helliwell

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 17:28:47 GMT
From: kim@wayne.uucp (Kim Helliwell)
Subject: heinlein and feminism/morality/survival

I've been reading this newsgroup for quite awhile, and am amazed that not
even the Heinlein fans have picked up on what I consider the most important
aspect of this rather silly debate about Heinlein and sexism (whatever that
is--have you ever seen a reasonable definition of sexism?).

The common thread that runs through nearly ALL of Heinlein's work is the
survival of the human race.  I can't think of ANY of the moral principles
(or whatever you want to call them) that he espouses which does not rest on
the survival of the human race as a bedrock.  Having rejected any notion of
a God or gods who impose morality upon a human creation, Heinlein has built
up an entire morality based upon human survival.  While I do not completely
share this view (I am a Christian, and therefore do think there is a moral
law based on things other that human survival), I can admire the attempt he
made and even pronounce it good and rational.

What are the consequences of this basis for morality?  Every one of his
major works, and quite a few of his minor works (INCLUDING, btw, the
juveniles!) works out one or more of the consequences.  For example, we
MUST colonize the Solar System and then go to the stars if the human race
is to survive!  Another one is education--we have to know how to solve at
least quadratic equations in our head in order to survive :-).

How does this relate to feminism?  Obviously, if the human race is to
survive and fill the galaxy (universe?) we must have babies--lots of them!
Who makes babies?  Women, of course.  Oh, they have to have some help from
men, but they are the primary "carriers" of humanity, and they must be
protected at all costs!  Therefore, the statement of Heinlein/Lazarus Long
about "topping a woman and making a baby with her hearty cooperation" is
eminently logical and consistent with Heinlein's philosophy.  In this
framework, the charge of sexism is irrelevant.

In _Expanded Universe_, Heinlein makes many of his views explicit (if you
want to know what he thinks--er, thought--that is the book to read).  In
that book, he makes the point that the current trends in relationships
between the sexes is, if anything, contra-survival, while he strongly
advocates giving women a MUCH stronger voice in our society (to the
EXCLUSION of men, as someone else just pointed out in this forum!).

I think Heinlein would say, and I agree, that the big mistake we are making
is in assuming that the standards we use today are the LAST WORD, and that
we can judge other cultures and eras based on our standards, and that our
standards will NEVER change.  We have hubris in spades today, or else how
could we dare to censor the writing of Mark Twain because it is "racist"?
How DARE anybody re-write the prayer book (or the BIBLE) because it is
"sexist?"  Our assumptions today will look pretty silly in ONE generation;
at least as silly as the assumptions of our grandparents look to us now!
 
Kim Helliwell
(a man, even tho my name is Kim!)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 02:07:02 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Heinlein's work in progress

Another Heinlein note. According to a letter from Virginia Heinlein posted
on CompuServe, they've gone through Robert's floppy disks and found no work
in progress. Heinlein had stated that he wanted to go out writing, but
evidently this didn't happen. So, unless something new turns up down the
road, Sailing Beyond the Sunset (which just came out in paperback, by the
way) really is his final novel.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 07:56:56 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.uucp (The Math Hacker)
Subject: Job -- love or hate

Didn't anyone enjoy 'Job - A Comedy of Justice'?

I've seen both praise and denouncement for every other book of his EXCEPT
Job.  Was it offensive to Christians?  Was it offensive to Satanists?  Why
doesn't anyone like it?

If you read the cover jacket (I did when I bought the book, which was as
soon as I saw it at the bookstore) there was A LOT of praise for the book
from many, what I considered, reliable sources - authors, science fiction
magazines, newspapers, etc.  I really can't believe everybody thinks they
all were wrong.

If you think I enjoyed the book, you're right.  I enjoyed it a lot.  Not as
good as Friday, or any of his hugo/nebula award winners, but certainly a
book worth reading; AND thinking about.

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.calpoly.edu
...{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 06:09:38 GMT
From: richard@a.cs.okstate.edu (Richard Brown)
Subject: Re: story about a tesseract

DO NOT MISS "And He Built A crooked House" by the lately lamented Robert A.
Heinlein!!!!!!!!  It was truely hilarious, and somewhat self-referential -
the address given for this bizarre structure was in fact, his own
(according to legend).  It was the only one I recall of his as being
intentionally funny, although his sharp wit was always lurking in the
background.

I suspect this story is included in _The_Past_Through_Tomorrow_ and
_Expanded_Universe_.  _Past_... and _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ probably
will be sold-out for the immediate future, but surely will be re-released
quite soon.

Richard Brown
Oklahoma State University
Computer Science 
UUCP:  {cbosgd, ihnp4, rutgers}!okstate!richard
ARPA:  richard@A.CS.OKSTATE.EDU
BITNET:  ....CISXRVB  

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 06:54:01 GMT
From: richard@a.cs.okstate.edu (Richard Brown)
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis) writes:
> is the Future History series, which can be found in an omnibus volume,
> "The Past Through Tomorrow" (I think).

This is the ORIGINAL definitive Future History work, on which several other
works were based.  _Expanded_Universe_ contains_Past..  in its entirety,
plus several additional works, and a near-exhaustive outline of all his
other works to that date.  Good fortune allowed him to remain with us long
enough to write more, evidently culminating in _To_Sail_Beyone_the_Sunset_.
Interesting title for a "swan song" work, but it didn't look like the end
of the series until the last sentence.  This frankly looked like an add-on
to me (the sentence, not the book).

> Heinlein was not a particularly good writer (try Jack Vance or Ursula
> LeGuin if you want good writing), but when he wanted to, he could tell a
> damn good story. I could even recommend "Starship Troopers" on plot,
> though I find the politics objectionable.

That's what I loved about _Starship_Troopers_, and even more so,
_The_Moon_Is_A_Harsh_Mistress_. (And much less so his mature works.  He
turned from politics to sex; and from fascinating speculation to
dirty-old-man/adolescent-fantasy).  He presented some of the most ancient
ideas about political theory in a fresh new light that made good sense to a
modern young adult.  _Farnham's_Freehold_ is less well known than many of
his others, but a patriot/free man cheers him all the way.  (OK, delete the
generic pronouns.  These are _MY_ views!)  I intend to launch a search for
all the political ideas in _Moon...  from the classical philosophers, at
least Socrates to Aquinus.  _Starship_Troopers_ idea of the right of every
resident to EARN his citizenship was a major sore spot for pre-Platonic
Athens, according to a philosopher friend of mine.

> All this leads to my Heinlein Rule: try anything he's written--some of it
> is bound to be good; if you don't like one book, try another.

Right on!!!  His "juveniles" are lots of fun, and the "mature" works are
quite challenging.  They are guaranteed to trigger _every_ sexual attitude
you posess.

Richard Brown
Oklahoma State University
Computer Science 
UUCP:  {cbosgd, ihnp4, rutgers}!okstate!richard
ARPA:  richard@A.CS.OKSTATE.EDU
BITNET:  ....CISXRVB  

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 07:34:10 GMT
From: richard@a.cs.okstate.edu (Richard Brown)
Subject: Re: Green Hills of Earth

ted@BRAGGVAX.ARPA writes:
>Someone asked for the "Green Hills of Earth" earlier.  The full poem
>was never revealed in the story,

I recall a later story in which "Noisy" Reisling saves a passenger liner by
tinkering the atomics (blindly, of course) after the engineer of the watch
is burned down when they go super-critical.  "Noisy" was in the engine room
at the time, talking shop, and moves instinctively to damp the reaction by
feel.  This, not so coincidentally, is exactly what destroyed his optic
nerves and started his barroom-music career.  How this relates to the song:
He alerts the bridge immediately and knowing he is going to die within the
hour, dictates the final, and thus canonical, version of "The Green Hills
Of Earth".  A great many other stanzae/versions exist, but this one is the
ultimate.  This later story is found in _Expanded_Universe_, which contains
the entire text of _Past_Through_Tomorrow_ ++.  Alas, I have lost my copy
of E.U. and it no longer appears on the shelves of the nearby bookstores.
One may fervently hope for a posthumous re-release.

Richard Brown
Oklahoma State University
Computer Science 
UUCP:  {cbosgd, ihnp4, rutgers}!okstate!richard
ARPA:  richard@A.CS.OKSTATE.EDU
BITNET:  ....CISXRVB  

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 13 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 204

Today's Topics:
				     
		Books - Bear (2 msgs) & Ellison (2 msgs) &
                        Gibson (2 msgs) & Barlowe's Guide

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 03:29:54 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: _THE FORGE OF GOD_ now out in paperback

srt@aero.UUCP (Scott R. Turner) writes:
>What I found most confusing was why the gobblers would bother with all the
>fakery that they did (the bogeys).  There wasn't anything the humans could
>do to interfere with the gobblers, so why bother with all that deception?

Wasn't there a character in the book who talked about the best strategy
being something like "keep 'em guessing"?  They (the gobblers) were coming
into a situation which they couldn't have full knowledge of beforehand.  It
would be to their advantage, in the unlikely event of humanity having some
sort of super-weapon that could effectively defend against them, to present
diversions, which the three bogeys certainly were.

>And why would the gobblers bother with Earth anyway?

There was a whole CHAPTER that talked about exactly why - because the Earth
was developing a technological capability which would allow them to spread
into space.  The gobblers got to achieve two goals at once - wiping out
potential competition, and establishing a site for their own expansion,
free of Earthly lifeforms.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 22:16:21 GMT
From: srt@aero.arpa (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: _THE FORGE OF GOD_ now out in paperback (SPOILERS)

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>Wasn't there a character in the book who talked about the best strategy
>being something like "keep 'em guessing"?  They (the gobblers) were coming
>into a situation which they couldn't have full knowledge of beforehand.
>It would be to their advantage, in the unlikely event of humanity having
>some sort of super-weapon that could effectively defend against them, to
>present diversions, which the three bogeys certainly were.

First, I think that if the gobblers studied Earth well enough to use
various Earth languages and understand human psychology well enough to come
up with the various deceptive strategies, then they'd have a pretty clear
idea of Earth's technological development, and wouldn't be worried about
any super-weapon.  Secondly, I don't think there is anything that can be
done against the Kemp objects, that would (a) seriously violate known
physics or (b) destroy Earth in the process.

>>And why would the gobblers bother with Earth anyway?
>
>There was a whole CHAPTER that talked about exactly why - because the
>Earth was developing a technological capability which would allow them to
>spread into space.  The gobblers got to achieve two goals at once - wiping
>out potential competition, and establishing a site for their own
>expansion, free of Earthly lifeforms.

Fine, the gobblers want to wipe out humans and expand.  Why not just drop a
few asteroids or moons or the Kemp objects on the Earth?  Why bother
learning the language, setting up the elaborate bogeys and so on?  Would
you do that with cockroaches?  I think not.  Just drop a billion tons of a
radioactive isotope in the Earth's atmosphere.

My point is that the psychology of the gobblers is badly flawed.  On the
one hand, they aren't mindless expansion machines, but on the other hand
they don't seem to have any goals other than expansion.  I wouldn't argue
that it is impossible to be intelligent and merely interested in your own
reproduction, just that it is highly unlikely and needs some justification.
For that matter, the psychology of the "good-guy" gobblers is fairly murky.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 09:52:34 GMT
From: abostick@gethen.uucp (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Last Dangerous Visions

galloway@elma.epfl.ch writes:
>As much as I like Harlan, I have to say that at this point, the only way I
>can believe that LDV has come out will be the day I hopefully am holding a
>copy in my own hands.  There are a lot of theorized reasons for the almost
>two decades delay; some have to do with the sheer magnitude of the task of
>writing the introductions, some have to do with writer's block, some have
>to do with Harlan's suffering from chronic Epstein-Barr virus for a number
>of years. And there are others.
>
>But whatever the reason(s) for the delay, unfortunately Harlan's track
>record on this project is such that it really isn't a good idea to build
>up expectations about when it'll be out.  ...  As far as I know though,
>*everyone* wishes and hopes that it will be done, the sooner the better.

Chris Priest, a British fan and writer, has published a fanzine called "The
Last Deadloss Visions" (n.b.: his fanzine's name is usually "Deadloss") in
which he details the history of THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS and his own
involvement with it as a contributor (he later pulled his story,
engendering much recriminations from Ellison).  He gives a convincing
argument that TLDV probably will never be published in anything resembling
its announced form.  The reasons he gives (I am repeating loosely from
memory; I am responsible for content, not Chris Priest) are that (1) the
stated task of writing introductions and afterwards to all the stories is
enormous -- and never has been represented by Ellison as being anywhere
near complete; (2) the announced length of TLDV is substantially longer
than WAR AND PEACE, and the technical problems of producing such a work
(either single or multiple volumes), while not insurmountable, would be
sufficiently difficult to overcome as to make it prohibitively expensive to
produce and hence to purchase.

Priest also has some flames for Ellison about the effect on a young
writer's (like Priest's) career of having one of his/her best works,
written especially for this showpiece collection, being sat on for years
and years.  He also questions the appropriateness of bringing into print a
collection representing what was the best works of writers some fifteen
years ago -- writers who have grown and developed since then, and for whom
this "best" would be an unpleasant reminder of their callow youth.

Alan Bostick
ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 03:32:18 GMT
From: hal@garth.uucp (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: Ellison and *Last Dangerous Visions

When he was guest of honor at Albacon in 1985, Ellison was fuming over a
story which had been spread around about him; seems he was supposed to have
approached a young fan of the female persuasion in an elevator and asked
"what do you say to a little f**k," for which the reply was "piss off
little f**k."  Harlan was convinced that the story had been started by
William Tenn, whom he had called requesting a story for TLDV; he believed
that Tenn, who hadn't published in a very long time, was offended by the
implication that he needed help (what, Harlan Ellison offend some? 8')).
Anyway, maybe Ellison is waiting for Tenn to die!

Seemed to me that he was too involved with the tv industry at the time to
even think about TLDV; that may have changed.

hal

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 15:01:17 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) writes:
>	"The Cyberpunk formula"?   Arrghh!!!
>
>Insofar as there is a formula, it is (1) followed by others, not Gibson,
>and (2) derived *from* Gibson.  So, to accuse him of employing a formula
>is a bit thick; he continues to write as William Gibson.

William Gibson is usualy credited with originally drawing the different
elements together in a way people refer to as "Cyberpunk". It was the
originality of the synthesis which made his first book so enjoyable. In MLO
he is re-using the same basic ideas, but without the same feeling of pace
and energy.

>>I give it ****. (Neuromancer *****, Count Zero ***)
>
>Why?  See comment about empty assertions above.

Because I didn't like the book quite as much as Neuromancer and prefered it
to Count Zero.

I didn't mention anything more than the basic outline of the story, because
to anyone who has read Gibson's previous work they would be major spoilers.

Let's try an experiment... Suppose I mention that at one point one of the
characters goes into one of the grimmer parts of the sprawl....

MILD SPOILER WARNING...

and stops outside a storefront with "twin display windows silvered with a
rich inner coating of dust." and that there is a neon sign "METRO"
something, and that the door is "re-inforced with a sheet of corrugated
steel; rusting eyebolts" protruding.

END SPOILER

to me, it was very obvious who was about to appear.

>>The final book? ... possibly, but somehow I doubt it.
>
>The final *Sprawl* book, Gibson says, never mind the book
>jacket.  And I don't doubt it.

Thinking about this further, the ending is set up so that a sequel is
possible, almost likely, but it won't be in the sprawl.  So both could be
right.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 12:49:19 GMT
From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers Cawley)
Subject: William Gibson interview from _The Independent_

  What with all the interest in William Gibson on the net I thought you
might be interested in this article, reproduced without permission from the
London newspaper The Independent, it appeared on the 8th of June.

Quote

(deleted)

Unquote.

  I hope the above proves interesting.

Piers Cawley
J48 Rutland Hall
University Park
Nottingham
pdc@maths.nott.ac.uk
pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk
...!uunet!ukc!dcl-cs!nott-cs!tuck!pdc

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 00:40:49 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Barlowe's Guide

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>_Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials_ is one of my favorite books of sf
>art.  I was very impressed by Wayne Barlowe, who had the book published
>when he was about 20!

Really?  I didn't know Barlowe was that young.

I've never cared a whole lot for Barlowe's paintings.  I think there are
two reasons.  One, he doesn't handle motion well.  Everything looks like a
still life, even (thinking of one Analog cover here) when the character in
the painting is running for his life.  His paintings make me think of a
scene in a wax museum.

Second, most of his aliens seem very angular looking, like emaciated skin
over bones that seem to make no biological sense.

The most recent things of his I've seen, though, I've liked.  That's the
covers to the new printings of the Retief books.  The paintings have a
humor that goes very well with the books -- imagine Clint Eastwood playing
James Bond playing a diplomat.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 13 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 205

Today's Topics:

	     Films - Light Years (4 msgs) & Willow (5 msgs) &
                     Dune (5 msgs) & A Request 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 14:07:10 GMT
From: rwhite@netxcom.uucp (Royal White)
Subject: Re: _Light Years_

robynt@sco.COM (Robyn Tarter) writes:
>Saw advertisement for a new movie "from" Rene Laloux & Isaac Asimov,
>called _Light Years_.  I don't know if they wrote it, produced it, or
>what, and it's only running for a week at the local "artsy" theatre.  No
>local review or credits listed in the ad.  Release date: 1988.  Anyone
>seen it?  Should I?

I have not seen this film myself, but friends of mine did. They said it was
a *good* film. The animation (it's an animated film) is not quite as good
as that of _Fantastic Planet_. The animator on _Fantastic Planet_ directed
or produced _Light Years_, I think, instead of animating. It sounds
interesting especially with the voices of so many top actors.  I suggest a
bargain matinee, if available.

Royal White Jr.
703-749-2384
uunet!netxcom!rwhite

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 04:41:59 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.uucp (The Ag Major)
Subject: Light Years -- lost potential

Just saw the "new" film adapted by Asimov for the american screen called,

				Light Years

A few things I'd like to comment on are:

1)  Why the title, as it didn't make any sense to the story?

2)  I found myself pulling for the creatures in the stories rather
    than the main characters; though the mutants were well done.

3)  From my view, the original french animated film was probably
    much better than it's english counter-part.  Of course that 
    might also have to do with the greater acceptance of nudity 
    and less stereotyped religious morals of the french people 
    who would go to see it.

4)  Many of the people who I saw the film with seemed to be taken
    aback by the amount of symbolism contained.  Some missed the
    implications completely, and others just didn't understand them.

5)  I'm really sorry that this film didn't turn out better.  I 
    think I was expecting something like an animated version of 
    the Australian film - The Quiet Earth.
	    
6)  Asimov isn't scoring any points with people because of it.  And
    I hope he doesn't start "branching out" to do screen-plays or
    other stuff like that.

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.calpoly.edu
...{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 17:37:47 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: _Light Years_

robynt@sco.COM (Robyn Tarter) writes:
>Saw advertisement for a new movie "from" Rene Laloux & Isaac Asimov,
>called _Light Years_.  I don't know if they wrote it, produced it, or
>what, and it's only running for a week at the local "artsy" theatre.  No
>local review or credits listed in the ad.  Release date: 1988.
>
>Anyone seen it?  Should I?

I saw it this February, and I do not recommend it. It's billed as Asimov's
first screenplay, and, if so, it should be his last. The plot is very
simple minded, and character development is all but nonexistant. It
consists of a full length cartoon in the style of _Fantastic_Planet_,
complete with topless women and an empress named 'Ambisextra'

On the other hand,the animation isn't _too_ bad, and it is at all times
very visually interesting. This is the sort of movie that is worth renting
for a buck and a half with a bunch of friends, but not worth a five dollar
admission.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 15:50:56 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: _Light Years_

>Saw advertisement for a new movie "from" Rene Laloux & Isaac Asimov,
>called _Light Years_.  I don't know if they wrote it, produced it, or
>what, and it's only running for a week at the local "artsy" theatre.

According to a local newspaper article, Asimov cleaned up some of the
English dialogue after the original translator botched it. His prominance
in the credits appears to be a marketing ploy as his involvement in the
movie is rather minimal.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 20:33:31 GMT
From: kyre@reed.uucp (Unicorn)
Subject: Re: Willow

*SPOILER AHEAD*

  I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I just saw the movie
yesterday, and there seemed to be a definite setup for a second movie.

  In the movie, it was mentioned that the baby was to be the downfall of
the Evil Queen (My memory is horrible with names, so forgive me...), yet
the baby had no real part in the downfall. Also, there was no explanation
for what happened to the Evil Queen after Willow made the baby 'disappear'.

  It would make sense to me that the Evil Queen, on thinking that the baby
was beyond her power to destroy, made her escape, and will probably return
later. If there is another movie, it will picture the baby grown and
confronting the Queen directly, possibly with Willow in the picture one
more time, still bumbling around with what little magic he knows.

  Any other comments out there?

Erik Gorka
Reed College, Box 233
Portland OR  97202
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 22:57:19 GMT
From: tneff@dasys1.uucp (Tom Neff)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

The name 'siskbert' for the two-headed monster came from the press guide
for WILLOW, as distributed to reviewers everywhere just to make SURE the
point was driven home in the media.  Gene Siskel, Roger Ebert and Pauline
Kael are three popular reviewers who have taken Lucas to task for reusing
his own material too much.  I guess it seemed fitting to the aging boy
wonder that this unabashed rehash of EVERYTHING he's already done should
have his detractors' names stencilled on the sides of a few villainous
grotesques.  (Kael got the general as you know.)  Every review I've read
has mentioned this fact prominently, not entirely without approval -- which
must have been the intended effect.

Personally, I got a charge out of watching Ron Howard's terrific directing
and the heartwarming performances from the small people (nelwyns).  Billy
Barty (my favorite since THE WILD WILD WEST and before) was almost worth
the price of admission alone.  And damn me for a sentimental fool, but I
had to wipe away a tear at the end.  As far the the FX and elaborate stunt
sequences were concerned, it was all fairly leaden and unconvincing to me,
although I'm sure all parties did a very workmanlike and competent job and
I'm equally sure I'll be watching behind the scenes explanations of how it
was done for years to come on those 'making movies' cable TV shows and
such.

Tom Neff
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tneff

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 14:57:33 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Willow (**SPOILER WARNING**)

kyre@reed.UUCP writes:
>  In the movie, it was mentioned that the baby was to be the downfall of
>the Evil Queen (My memory is horrible with names, so forgive me...), yet
>the baby had no real part in the downfall.

   Actually, if you sit down and think about it, if it weren't for the
baby, the Evil Queen would never have been conquered, because she would
never have gone through the whole process that led to her downfall.  So
although the baby had no direct part, she _was_ indirectly responsible.
   I agree that it seems to be set up for a sequel.  This bothers me,
unless Lucas and Howard can put some spirit into the next one.  While I did
enjoy this movie, it seemed to me to be just another George Lucas
by-the-book blockbuster.  You know, "Hey, Ron, let's make a blockbuster
fantasy movie!"  "Okay, George, let's!"
   Of course, that's just my humble opinion.  In case anyone cares.

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 19:49:27 GMT
From: paw3c@galen.acc.virginia.edu (Pat Wilson)
Subject: Re: Willow

kyre@reed.UUCP writes:
>   I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I just saw the movie
> yesterday, and there seemed to be a definite setup for a second movie.
>
>   In the movie, it was mentioned that the baby was to be the downfall of
> the Evil Queen (My memory is horrible with names, so forgive me...), yet
> the baby had no real part in the downfall. Also, there was no explanation
> for what happened to the Evil Queen after Willow made the baby
> 'disappear'.

Well, it was clear to me that she was herself banished to the "netherworld"
when she upset all the Kool-Aid by the altar.  So, in fact, the princess
WAS the downfall of the Queen - if she hadn't gone to all that trouble to
rid herself of the child, she wouldn't have stumbled into the spell (which
must have been pretty powerful, since it took all night to set up...).

A _great_ piece of acting by Jean Marsh...

Pat Wilson
paw3c@acc.virginia.edu
uunet!virginia!paw3c
paw3c@virginia.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 20:48:23 GMT
From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval)
Subject: Re: Review of the movie WILLOW

tneff@dasys1.UUCP (Tom Neff) writes:
> Billy Barty (my favorite since THE WILD WILD WEST and before) was almost
> worth

Was Billy Barty in THE WILD WILD WEST? I know that Micheal Dunn played Dr.
Loveless (or was that Lovelace... senility, you know). Dunn was the same
actor that played the dwarf in the Star Trek episode with the Platonians
(and I can't even remember the title of the episode.)

I do recall Billy Barty in "Under the Rainbow" (playing the Villain) and
he's been a regular for years on John Byner's cable comedy show, BIZARRE
(Is that still being made?) But I do not recall Billy in any of THE WILD
WILD WEST episodes.

Sorry, just being picky.

Dan C Duval
Measurement Systems Division
Tektronix, Inc.
dand@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM
tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 17:23:27 GMT
From: wmartin@almsa-1.arpa (Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI)
Subject: Re: 'Dune' on TV

Written after having seen the first half only -- the second half is being
aired in St. Louis tonight:

What irked me the most about the added voice-over-and-paintings intro was
that the term "Butlerian jihad" was never mentioned. The whole
anti-thinking- machine environment that the book/series emphasized was
sloughed over, leaving the rationale for even having mentats unclear to
people not familiar with the written work. (And others have mentioned that
there seem to be a lot of "questionable" machines evident, like the
tutoring info-pad Paul uses, and the "poison detector" that said "safe"
after he waved it over the spice candies, plus of course the
hunter/seeker.)

I liked the concept of doing the explanatory introduction; I just wished
the paintings had been better, and that they had kept the bit with Princess
Irulan reading the last part as it was in the cinema version (I think the
male voice read the same words she did to close the intro, didn't he?).

Oh, well. In any case, it's better than "ALF", isn't it? (That's what it
was on opposite here last night. :-)

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 20:31:50 GMT
From: dkw@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu (David Keith Wall)
Subject: Re: DUNE

demasi@paisano.UUCP (Michael C. De Masi) writes:
>I think it [messing with the idea of the weirding way] had two purposes.
>The first was to make the concept more understandable to the great
>unwashed, and the second was another excuse to throw in some nifty special
>effects.  One other real bastardization with the same two fold purpose was
>the Guild Navigator's ability to 'fold space' under the influence of
>Spice.  What a stupid concept.

What's so stupid about it?  Faster-than-light travel by means of folding
space is a standard sf device. In fact, it fits in well with the the fact
that the Spacing Guild emphasizes pure mathematics; the structure of space
(as we presently know it) is represented by some pretty abtruse
mathematics.

>In the book, Spice gave the navigators prescience, which enabled them to
>make navigational decisions at the great speeds they would have to be
>going to travel the distances they went.  Never was it stated anywhere in
>the book that spice had any qualities that would allow one to directly
>manipulate space or matter within.

If I remember correctly, somewhere in the appendices to _Dune_ it mentions
something about Paul being able to perceive four-dimensional space,
allowing him to 'see' the 'future' Also, it states that the navigators at
one point were worried about the future, and that hindsight told them they
should have realized someone (Paul) was messing around with 4-D space.  To
be sure, he was just looking ahead to the possible futures, but the very
act of observing the possible futures was altering which ones were
possible.  Particle physicists have the very same type of problems to deal
with.
   Another correction on a minor point: melange did not 'give' anyone
prescience -- it merely enhanced an individual's natural ability in that
(and other) areas.

>Lousy movie,

I disagree. It's certainly not a GREAT movie, but I found it entertaining
even though it was highly inaccurate in spots.  The problem is that _Dune_
is such a complex, multileveled book that it's next to impossible (in my
opinion) to capture everything that goes on.

David K. Wall
Dept. of Statistics
dkw@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 20:05:31 GMT
From: rwl@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Re: DUNE (dumb concepts)

johnm@voltron.SGI.COM (Foosball Addict) writes:
>RLWALD@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robert L. Wald) writes:
>>   I did see a few minutes of it. I had forgotten all about the sound
>> weapons. What a stupid concept.
> 
> Why do you consider the wierding modules 'a stupid concept'?

How could it not be?  Taking Herbert's idea of the "weirding way" as a
mental discipline/power and turning it into some visual prop which Lynch
(or Dino) decided would be easier fer them dumb ol' viewers to latch on to?

Now, is the "wierding module" the stupidest concept of the movie?  Other
candidates:

(1) The Baron's pustules and pustule-admirers (another loving look into
    the gooey mind of David "Eraserhead" Lynch).

(2) The ending of the movie (y'know, when it rains?  Gotta have that
    messiah symbolism laid out fer them viewers agin).

(3) PLACE YOUR FAVE HERE...

Ray Lubinsky
Department of Computer Science
University of Virginia
UUCP:   ...!uunet!virginia!uvacs!rwl    
BITNET: rwl8y@virginia                  
CSNET:  rwl@cs.virginia.edu  
        rwl%uvacs@uvaarpa.virginia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 16:02:19 GMT
From: elk@cblpn.att.com (Edwin King)
Subject: Re: DUNE

I must agree that what they did to DUNE to make it a movie was positively
CRIMINAL.  The whole idea of weirding modules, "folding space", the
portrayal of Ali, the Bene Gesserit having to overhear about Paul's
existence, Paul's immediate acceptance by the Fremen, The protrayal of the
Fremen themselves, all varied between trite all outright silly.

Now, to be fair, I must think that a lot of this was done both to make it
more reasonable to the uninitiated (not always a good idea) and to try to
squeeze a 600 page (with barely a wasted word) book into about 2 hours
(which they didn't manage).  They just didn't have TIME to the kind of plot
development that this book requires in order to do it right.

What I think they should have done, would be to split the book into a
trilogy of films, with divisions falling basically along the same lines as
the original major divisions within the book itself.  This might not work
exactly, since the middle section would be a litle small for that, but it
would come close.  This way they would have had enough time to handle the
plot development correctly and even be able to explain The Bene Gesserit
without resorting to wierding modules.  (Example: who ever heard of The
Force before Star Wars?)

Any takers?

Ed King
elk@cblpn.ATT.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 20:00:25 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Butlerian Jihad

deckard@ucscb.UCSC.EDU writes:
> Somewhere up there someone said that the Jihad was aimed at machinery. I
> dont think that this is so, it was aimed at computers, (especially
> self-aware ones) not machine. otherwise, why would they have space
> travel, shields and various other technological goodies?

The Orange Catholic Bible (described in Dune as having followed after the
Butlerian Jihad) had in it at least one extra commandment of the general
form: "Thou shalt not make any machine after the mind of a man"...more or
less.  The implication was strong that computers in general were
prohibited.  This gave the development of the Mentat a very high priority.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 11:23:00 GMT
From: quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no (Kai Quale)
Subject: Film Request

A while ago I read about a film called Near Dark (I think). It was about a
gang of teenage vampires roving around the US in a van, looking for a place
to stay. The story reminded me more than a little of The Lost Boys. The
director was a woman, if that's any help. Anyone seen it ? Is it good ?

Kai Quale
quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 14 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 206

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 08:23:27 GMT
From: richard@a.cs.okstate.edu (Richard Brown)
Subject: R A Heinlein-what was that book?

I am trying to remember the title of a Heinlein book that I enjoyed only
slightly, but was out of his Future History series and so requires a second
look (at least for us Archivists).

The plot is that an incredibly rich, excessively old, misanthrope buys
doctors who will do a "body transplant" - and he ends up with the nubile,
gorgeous body of his secretary (she was killed by muggers) which is
basically one giant gland of sex hormones.  She is also still "present" in
his mind, and she teaches him how to be an uninhibited wench and successful
woman in society (BTW, I suspect that any male who wound up with a female
persona permanently would *NEED* this sort of help.  Any trans-sexuals out
there who care to comment?).

_Time_Enough_for_Love_ sounds like the right flavor, but I seem to recall
that as being a Lazarus Long story.  Have I got a wire crossed?  Or does
somebody know the one I'm thinking of?

Richard Brown
Computer Science 
Oklahoma State University
UUCP:  {cbosgd, ihnp4, rutgers}!okstate!richard
ARPA:  richard@A.CS.OKSTATE.EDU
BITNET:  ....CISXRVB  

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 15:21:08 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

richard@a.cs.okstate.edu (Richard Brown) writes:
>manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis) writes:
>> is the Future History series, which can be found in an omnibus volume,
>> "The Past Through Tomorrow" (I think).
>
> This is the ORIGINAL definitive Future History work, on which several
> other works were based.  _Expanded_Universe_ contains_Past..  in its
> entirety, plus several additional works, and a near-exhaustive outline of
> all his other works to that date.

No, _Expanded Universe_ doesn't contain TPTT, although it does have some of
the same stories (Searchlight comes to mind). And I don't remember a
near-exhaustive outline, either (and I just reread it). By all means buy
TPTT, in hardback if you can find it. It's full of good stuff.  EU is more
for confirmed Heinlein fans, and people who are interested in the man
behind the works.

Ned Danieley
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Box 3140
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807
      684-6942
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 18:40:32 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uucp (Eugene Tramaglino)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism

ewa@silvlis.COM (Ernest Adams) writes:
>The man was fixated on women's reproductive capacity.  He was willing to
>grant them anything else: brains, courage, strength, whatever, but in the
>last analysis, Robert Heinlein saw women as producers of babies, not as
>full partners in human society.

These two qualities are not mutually exclusive.  That is, just because you
have shown that Heinlein was "fixated on women's reproductive capacity"
(which I see as a subpart of his fixation on racial survival), does not
mean that you have demonstrated that Heinlein saw women a "not . . . full
partners in human society."  On the contrary, I would say that Heinlein,
DUE to his "fixations", assigned women a HIGHER, more ESSENTIAL role in
society.  And, to top it off, you can't argue with Heinlein (much), because
his views stem from his "belief" (undefined terms?) that moral behavior is
survival behavior.  I quote from "The Pragmatics of Patriotism," in
_Expanded Universe_:

        . . . I now define "moral behavior" as "behavior that tends toward
   survival."  I won't argue with philosophers or theologians who choose to
   use the word "moral" to mean something else . . .

This was apparently one of Heinlein's fundamental beliefs, and is therefore
inarguable.  (Inarguable in my system of fundamental beliefs, that is.)  I
may not AGREE with Heiin in these views, but I cannot dispute them.  I can
simply agree or disagree.  They cannot be reasoned.

Eugene Tramaglino
1450 E Harmon 207A
Las Vegas, NV 89119
+1 702 731 4064
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 19:18:37 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uucp (Eugene Tramaglino)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>Much as I hate to get involved in this argument, I have to agree that
>Heinlein's "maxim" that "an armed society is a polite society" doesn't
>seem to be reflected in the reality of mobs, secret societies, and gangs.
>If we agree that there are a lot of weapons in inner-city areas, does this
>mean everyone there, or even a majority, are polite?

I think part of Heinlein's assumptions include that MOST people are armed.
I'm thinking on the lines of 90%.  Also, people must be unhesitant to shoot
to kill, when mobs, secret societies, gangs, etc, show up.  If being in a
gang meant that as soon as you got violent, local citizens consisting of
three times your number were going to shoot at you, I think you might
consider opening a General Store and settling down.  If (heh-heh-heh) you
lasted that long.

Eugene Tramaglino
1450 E Harmon 207A
Las Vegas, NV 89119
+1 702 731 4064
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 18:49:11 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Supposedly polite societies (was Heinlein)

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>Heinlein's "maxim" that "an armed society is a polite society" doesn't
>seem to be reflected in the reality of mobs, secret societies, and gangs.

Ahem.  True: they tend to be less than completely polite to "outsiders."
But you'll find that almost all such societies have strict codes of
behavior within the "organization," "club," or whatever they call
themselves.

The best way to get yourself messed up, whether in the maf or the yak or a
random street gang, is to violate the rules concerning how you treat your
"brothers and sisters."  (In many cases, of course, "sisters" are a lesser
class, but that's not the topic of discussion here -- though, as a side
note, in many such insulting a woman is _more_ dangerous than insulting a
man.)

I'm not arguing in favor of an armed society here; and I'm not espousing
the virtues of the maf, the yak, or the crips and bloods; I'm just noting
reality.

Heinlein's maxim is based on the assumption that you don't insult people
when you _know_ you're liable to get killed for it -- at least, not unless
you're stupid.  Stupid people in such a society don't live long, unless
they're very very good with their weapons (and even then, someone smart
who's good with a weapon is going to come along sooner or later.)

It's all a matter of judgement.  I don't like the idea of living in an
armed society.  The price to pay for that, however, seems to be living in
an increasingly rude and crass society.  Is it worth it?  Ask me again in
five years...

dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 22:03:44 GMT
From: demasi@paisano.uucp (Michael C. De Masi)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

jsalter@polyslo.UUCP writes:
> Didn't anyone enjoy 'Job - A Comedy of Justice'?
>
> I've seen both praise and denouncement for every other book of his EXCEPT
> Job.  Was it offensive to Christians?  Was it offensive to Satanists?
> Why doesn't anyone like it?
 
I got quite a kick out of the book.  As it was my first experience with
Heinlein, so I really can't compare it with his other works, but I enjoyed
the book thoroughly.  It brought up a lot of the questions about the nature
of Divinity & good and evil that I'd always found troublesome myself, and
did so in a manner that was both thought provoking and enjoyable.  I
especially liked the wit of the book.  Heinlein covered concepts that some
people (not myself) might have found profoundly offensive in a way that
first disarmed the reader, then took him/her by the hand into this strange
universe much as the story took the unfortunate protagonists.

I think that deep inside, everybody can identify with the story of Job (the
biblical one).  Just some poor bastard who gets picked as the 'lucky' one
to suffer all the slings and arrows that the divine one wants to throw at
him.  In the bible, this is explained via the fact that since the diety is
all good, there must be some good reason for all this seemingly unnecessary
suffering.  All this book says is, "Why assume that?"

Working my way through 'Friday'

Mike D

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 23:51:23 GMT
From: allbery@ncoast.uucp (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism.

>friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>[...]  And rape, to her as an AP, was not the trauma it would be to an
>ordinary woman.  Her reactions have NOTHING to do with the feelings of
>ordinary women.  After all, very little else she does in the whole novel
>has anything to do with what ordinary women do or feel.

>jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>Heinlein invented this kind of female entity and made one the hero of
>his novel.  Heinlein invented a kind of woman who does not mind being

Etc., etc. ad nauseam....

Let us not forget that the character of Friday was created to make a
specific point.  Let us also not forget that until relatively recently,
rape was a crime only because it involved tampering with the property of
another male....  Friday the AP woman is in the position that real women
were in not so long ago.  Which was the point Heinlein was trying to make.
(And things aren't so much better today: if a woman is raped, the courts
have a tendency to make it appear to be her fault, or at least to increase
the trauma she experiences as a result of it.) 

Brandon S. Allbery
{uunet!marque,sun!mandrill}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 16:21:44 GMT
From: m10ux!rgr@moss.att.com (Duke Robillard)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

jsalter@polyslo.UUCP writes:
>Didn't anyone enjoy 'Job - A Comedy of Justice'?

    I found most of the book pretty silly (dumb, flat, predictable
characters.  and I swear that NOBODY talks the way people do in Heinlein
novels.  except maybe at SF cons) but it picked up somewhat after the
universe ended.  Personally, I hate judeo-christianity, so I found the
depiction of the Judeo-Christian diety as a spoiled, mis-behaving brat very
enjoyable.

Duke Robillard
AT&T Bell Labs
Murray Hill, NJ
m10ux!rgr@att.UUCP                 
{backbone!}att!m10ux!rgr

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 22:36:10 GMT
From: dhawk@lamc.uucp (David Hawkins)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

jsalter@polyslo.UUCP wrote:
>Didn't anyone enjoy 'Job - A Comedy of Justice'?
>
>I've seen both praise and denouncement for every other book of his EXCEPT
>Job.  Was it offensive to Christians?  Was it offensive to Satanists?  Why
>doesn't anyone like it?

JOB is the only Heinlein book that I liked enough to re-read (or purchase
in hardback, for that matter.)  A friend of mine who is a Conservative
Baptist missionary says that every seminary student should be required to
read JOB (and he was refering to Heinlein's book.)  8-) (Conservative
Baptists are a separate denomination.)

I read JOB while I was in seminary and enjoyed it.  I'm sure there may be
Christians who were offended.  Christianity covers a fairly wide range of
thought, believe it or not.

I've argued this point with others, but I'll repeat my conviction that JOB
shows that Heinlein didn't know theology very well.  But then again, that
might not have been his main interest when he wrote JOB.

David Hawkins
Letterman Army Medical Center
San Francisco, CA 
{pacbell,well,hoptoad}!lamc!dhawk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 06:18:46 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

dhawk@lamc.UUCP (David Hawkins) writes:
>I've argued this point with others, but I'll repeat my conviction that JOB
>shows that Heinlein didn't know theology very well.  But then again, that
>might not have been his main interest when he wrote JOB.

   I'm not so sure. This is a private theory of mine, not inside
information, but I've always suspected that the Fundie-like religions
Heinlein portrayed (_JOB_, _Stranger In A Strange Land_) are not based on
mainline evangelical Christianity, but on the Mormons. Look at where
Heinlein grew up - the very part of Missouri that has long been a Mormon
enclave. Heinlein must have met Mormons when growing up, and the picture of
heaven he presents both in _JOB_ and _SIASL_ remind me more of Mormon
theology than any other sort. Note the way everybody (even Digby) gets to
heaven in _SIASL_. Most evangelicals picture heaven as a pretty exclusive
neighborhood, but the Mormons (I am told) let nearly everyone into some
level of heaven. The theology of _JOB_ may not be wrong, but just have
different roots than you expected.
   Comments?

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!eos!barry

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 00:01:47 GMT
From: manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

> Good fortune allowed him to remain with us long enough to write more,
> evidently culminating in _To_Sail_Beyone_the_Sunset_.  Interesting title
> for a "swan song" work, but it didn't look like the end of the series
> until the last sentence.  This frankly looked like an add-on to me (the
> sentence, not the book).

I posted my original article last week. Over the weekend, I read "To Sail
Beyond the Sunset", and found that, as with Asimov's recent work, I can no
longer remember much of the books on which it is based. I can certainly
remember every detail of "Citizen of the Galaxy", or "Double Star", both of
which I read many years ago. Similarly, I can remember trivial details from
the Future History stories. Yet "The Number of the Beast" has already
started to fade in my memory.

>> Heinlein was not a particularly good writer (try Jack Vance or Ursula
>> LeGuin if you want good writing), but when he wanted to, he could tell a
>> damn good story. I could even recommend "Starship Troopers" on plot,
>> though I find the politics objectionable.
>
>That's what I loved about _Starship_Troopers_, and even more so,
>_The_Moon_Is_A_Harsh_Mistress_. (And much less so his mature works.  He
>turned from politics to sex; and from fascinating speculation to
>dirty-old-man/adolescent-fantasy).  He presented some of the most ancient
>ideas about political theory in a fresh new light that made good sense to
>a modern young adult.

I don't expect people to agree with my politics, or to agree with those of
the writers I read (Joseph Conrad comes to mind here), but, as has been
pointed out, Heinlein tended to preach rather than write. He would set up a
straw man (in the same way that Ayn Rand would do), and then demolish that.
That tends to annoy me (I prefer the participants in an argument to be
evenly matched).

>  His "juveniles" are lots of fun, and the "mature" works are quite
>challenging.  They are guaranteed to trigger _every_ sexual attitude you
>posess.

Well, not in my case. As a gay man, I don't expect to be titillated by
heterosexual scenes. But sexuality is sexuality, and I can find much to in
such scenes, if the writing is good. Unfortunately, I found Maureen Johnson
a rather unconvincing character, and her sexual remarks somewhat tacky.
("Do all the members of your family have such big penises?" is a case in
point) She constantly tells us how horny and amoral she is, to no apparent
point other than the fact that she has a lot of sex.

Incidentally, I find Heinlein's putdowns of gay people mildly offensive (in
"TSBTS", he talks of militant feminists as lesbians, even though most of
them were heterosexual. He then speculates on what sort of male wimp would
marry such a "lesbian".)

Heinlein wrte much that was good, but I can't pretend to the sort of
uncritical admiration which some here have.

Vincent Manis
Department of Computer Science
University of British Columbia
manis@cs.ubc.ca
manis@cs.ubc.cdn
manis@ubc.csnet
{ihnp4!alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!manis

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 21:40:43 GMT
From: dkw@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu (David Keith Wall)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

dhawk@lamc.UUCP (David Hawkins) writes:
>I've argued this point with others, but I'll repeat my conviction that JOB
>shows that Heinlein didn't know theology very well.  But then again, that
>might not have been his main interest when he wrote JOB.

I'm not looking for an argument, but how about some examples of why
Heinlein didn't know his theology?  You gave me the impression that you are
studying theology and/or are a preacher, deacon, etc...  Being a grad
student in statistics I sometimes get irritated at people om tv when they
talk about statistics (when it's obvious that they're completely ignorant
on the subject (which I am when it comes to theology--I know only what your
average well-educated person knows)), so I'm interested in what you have to
say as a person knowledgeable in theology.

David K. Wall

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 14 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 207

Today's Topics:

		     Miscellaneous - Supermen (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 04:41:29 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Superman

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>You might think at first this is a simple matter of opinion. On the other
>hand, consider just how badly 99% of the human race measure up compared
>with what we *know* some individuals are capable of. Then consider that
>even the few demonstrably intelligent people are almost never generally
>"intelligent" in all senses of the word.
>
>People, both in general and in particular cases, aren't very smart. We
>just like to *think* we're smart. I claim that any single individual who
>showed all the best aspects of intelligence all the time would be a
>superman. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci was one such, I'm not sure. There
>certainly haven't been many other examples!

   There are different senses of the word "intelligent" to take into
account.  There is the ability to reason, calculate, to derive the theory
of relativity, whatever.  The sort of thing that is nominally measured by
IQ (please don't argue about that.)  It is this ability that I meant when I
said that we were close to the limit.  The superman might have an IQ of 200
as a norm for the race, but not an "intelligence" that is to ours as ours
is to a chickens.

   Then there are a whole host of talents, aptitudes, different modes of
perceptions.  The superman could have all of these, I suppose.  Artistic
genius as a matter of course, so to speak.

   Finally there is what I shall call rationality.  People are not very
rational, including people with high IQ's.  People have compulsions, do
self destructive things, panic, make major life decisions on the basis of
impulse, play head games, etc.  The superman might be rational at a level
that humans have difficulty even comprehending.

>This was a matter of opinion ten years ago; today it is false. See AMA
>conference proceedings on Psychoneuroimmunology. The brain *does* in fact
>tell your white cells what to do. The fact that this is *usually* not
>under conscious control certainly does not mean that it *never* is.  Not
>to get into too much detail, but consider biofeedback...any autonomic
>function that can be measured can be put under conscious control. And they
>all end up *indirectly* affected by conscious processes anyway.

   Not quite what I had in mind.  Yes, you can put autonomic functions
under conscious control -- this is a staple of some Oriental religions.
There was an interesting case a number of years back of a ordinary American
factory worker who had the ability to stop and start his heart at will.  It
seems that he had conceived the fear that his heart was going to stop
someday and he worked on being able to control it.

   However I meant rather more than biofeedback.  Suppose that you could
consciously perceive what your physiology was doing, and consciously direct
it, in detail, directly, rather than indirectly as a feedback loop.

>Absolutely. Although it's not clear what kinds of physical improvements
>are possible (e.g. widening the female pelvis any more would start
>interfering with locomotion), it certainly would be nice.

   One possibility is to be born smaller, with a more complete development
at birth, and the ability to grow bones and brains larger.  An interesting
possibility is that the mother could transfer knowledge to the young before
birth.  Humans spend a lot of their very early childhood just learning how
to perceive.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 88 01:32:59 GMT
From: kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Superman

While you're designing a new human race, don't leave out longevity as a
most important improvement.  Humans don't come close to living long enough
to mature intellectually.  Worse, by the time they have enough experience
to make good decisions with a little better than random chance frequency,
their bodies are already in decay.  I think that with a human species that
stretched the current lifetime and breeding season out over 1000 or 10,000
years (with an appropriate decrease in the birthrate), a lot of things like
war and poverty would probably just naturally go away.  What we would get
in replacement I would love to be able to find out.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 01:11:58 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Superman

Richard Harter wrote:
>   The superman might be rational at a level that humans have difficulty
> even comprehending.

Absolutely agree, given the way you defined "rational".

> The superman might have an IQ of 200 as a norm for the race, but not an
> "intelligence" that is to ours as ours is to a chickens.

Maybe. Why do you think so? It seems quite conceivable to me that someone
with an IQ of 250 might well be to us as we are to chickens. (I'm very well
aware of the problems associated with the concepts of IQ and even
"intelligence", but Richard asked me not to quibble, so I'm using the terms
without qualms. I picked 250 because 200 is too easily within the extremes
of the normal range.)

I have some reason to think that humans who hit an IQ of 160 to 180 are
about as far above average (IQ 100), as the average humans are above smart
dogs, anyway. And perhaps dogs are to chickens as an average person is to a
dog. (Using "IQ" as freely as this is making me grit my teeth; I'm on the
verge of flaming myself! :-)

Why do I hold such an outrageous opinion? Because human geniuses have no
problem whatsoever with concepts that the average person just can't seem to
grasp at all. The smartest dogs have a vague concept of quantity, but can't
really count beyond three or so in a truly abstract sense.  Humans on the
low end of average (IQ 85 or so) can sometimes grasp the full algorithm of
counting and have some small idea of abstract scales.  Normal intelligence
(IQ 100 and thereabouts) easily handles counting, and has a pretty clear
idea of the difference between a hundred and ten thousand, and with
training may grasp larger scales. Usually not, though...most people have no
clue as to the actual magnitude of a million versus a thousand. Brilliant
people (IQ 120 to 130) are potentially capable of grasping the full concept
of scale and applying it to essentially any magnitude of exponent they run
into. A genius can create entirely new systems, like Scale Coordinate
physics, or whole new mathematical systems.

Ok, the above is a bunch of B.S. in some ways...none of it is strictly true
(e.g. there's considerable overlap of ranges, depending on how much hard
work and study someone puts in to compensate for lack of native
intelligence). But I'm hoping it illustrates the basic idea of how much
difference there can be in 15 to 30 IQ points, and how much of a difference
there might be between IQ 160 and IQ 250. Someone who is as much smarter
than a supergenius, as the supergenius is over someone severely retarded???
Wow and gee whiz.

Sigh...I didn't write the above very carefully so there's lots of room to
nitpick me to death. Hopefully you can look past the exact words and see
the concepts I'm pointing at. That vaguely reminds me of something else:
Ever try to point at something for the benefit of a cat or dog? They
*always* look at your finger!

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 88 01:25:08 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Superman

Kent Birthright Dolan writes:
>While you're designing a new human race, don't leave out longevity as a
>most important improvement.  Humans don't come close to living long enough
>to mature intellectually.

Yes! Very good point!

>with a human species that stretched the current lifetime and breeding
>season out over 1000 or 10,000 years (with an appropriate decrease in the
>birthrate), a lot of things like war and poverty would probably just
>naturally go away.

Hmmm...well, that brings up another point. Note that, when it comes to the
really basic issues like outlook on life (cynical, pessimistic, optimistic,
pacifistic, aggressive, passive, etc), people get less and less likely to
learn/change as they get older. At least if you consider people of age 40
and beyond, to avoid quibbles. Sure, learning continues to take place, but
it tends to be more additive than revolutionary.

And yet to eliminate war and poverty, people in general would need to
*unlearn* some things they learned early on. People actually live their
lives according to gross oversimplifications like "nice guys finish last".

You really need to postulate some mechanism for reintroducing some basic
flexibility, along with the longer life span. Currently it takes radical
mental trauma to really shake up someone's outlook on life at age fifty.
And sometimes even *that* is insufficient.

This is one of the reasons that I tend to be doubtful that it would be
advantageous to have babies pop out of the womb all ready and prepared for
life...this would seem to exacerbate the existing problem with older
humans. Instead of getting set in your ways at age 30/40/50/60 etc, instead
you'd be that way right off the bat!

Of course, the obvious solution is to preprogram babies with the "right"
point of view right off the bat. But are we so sure that we know what that
is, with our mentalities as relatively retarded as they currently are???

> What we would get in replacement I would love to be able to find out.

Ah. Well, if *you* want to be in the know, I suggest we need a method of
cognitive enhancement that will work on Homo Sapiens. That's what *I'm*
hoping for. I've been working on a conceptual design for a computer system
to do so for the last decade, but mostly what I've found are blind alleys.
Though there *are* some promising avenues of attack...

I find the idea of "cyberspace" quite fascinating in this regard.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 04:15:52 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Superman

Doug Merritt writes:
>Humans have neotenous development of this sort for very specific reasons.
>You definitely cannot just do away with it by a more clever design without
>losing some of the things that we currently consider to make us human.
>This doesn't necessarily apply to whatever our *next* stage of development
>might be, but it does mean that, without neoteny, those creatures would be
>very strange to us.
>
>You refer indirectly to some of this, but at the risk of explaining the
>obvious: the baby's head needs to be big...

   That is open to question.  Granted that babies heads are about as big as
they can be.  However the reason that they have to be big is that the skull
bones harden early in mammals.  This is not quite true in humans.  Babies
are born with soft skulls which harden a few months after birth.  In most
mammals brain development is essentially complete by birth.  This is not
true in humans; brain growth continues after birth.  The design change
would be that this pattern is extended, i.e.  babies would be born with
smaller brains and skulls, and that growth continues for an extended period
after birth.  This would be accompanied by a more complete development of
core functions by birth.  The differences would be that women would have
narrower pelvises, and babies and young children would appear somewhat
different, but hardly "strange".

>Also, the greatly extended period of helplessness of babies and children
>is essential for the flexible learning that is so characteristically
>human. For a kid to be born fully functional would mean losing the
>flexibility of learning of language, perception, social interaction, etc.
>Such things would need to be pre-programmed, which, while imaginable and
>perhaps even useful at some future point, again is even more significantly
>"other than human".

   I disagree.  The helplessness of babies and very young children is a
physical matter -- a baby cannot walk, for example.  The incredible
helplessness of a newborn baby is not required for flexible learning -- it
is simply part of the generally delayed development that is characteristic
of humans.  Babies are still completing stages of physical development that
are usually completed before birth in placental mammals.  The delayed
physical development is probably a package deal, i.e. humans delay
everything because that is the evolutionarily simple thing to have
happened.  In exchange for this we get big brains.  I am arguing that the
various delays in the development process could be done more efficiently.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 19:16:36 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: Superman

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>Kent Birthright Dolan writes:
>>While you're designing a new human race, don't leave out longevity as a
>>most important improvement.  Humans don't come close to living long
>>enough to mature intellectually.

Mature intellectually heck!  What would a mature human being act like in
the first place.  Look at a child and his/her "childish" ways.  We outgrow
a lot of them (many instances of "fear", for example) What other
childishnesses (is this a word?) would we outgrow?

As a case in point, see Mrs. G & Mrs. R. on TV yesterday at that museum in
Russia?  "My turn!" "NO!  MY turn!" "I wanna talk!"  sheesh.

>>with a human species that stretched the current lifetime and breeding
>>season out over 1000 or 10,000 years (with an appropriate decrease in the
>>birthrate), a lot of things like war and poverty would probably just
>>naturally go away.
>
>Hmmm...well, that brings up another point. Note that, when it comes to the
>really basic issues like outlook on life (cynical, pessimistic,
>optimistic, pacifistic, aggressive, passive, etc), people get less and
>less likely to learn/change as they get older. At least if you consider
>people of age 40 and beyond, to avoid quibbles. Sure, learning continues
>to take place, but it tends to be more additive than revolutionary.

_Man into Superman_, by R. C. W. Ettinger in 1972 has some VERY interesting
speculation on this.

>And yet to eliminate war and poverty, people in general would need to
>*unlearn* some things they learned early on. People actually live their
>lives according to gross oversimplifications like "nice guys finish last".
>
>You really need to postulate some mechanism for reintroducing some basic
>flexibility, along with the longer life span. Currently it takes radical
>mental trauma to really shake up someone's outlook on life at age fifty.
>And sometimes even *that* is insufficient.

OMNI a year or so had an article that included something like this - it was
June a couple of years ago....

>This is one of the reasons that I tend to be doubtful that it would be
>advantageous to have babies pop out of the womb all ready and prepared for
>life...this would seem to exacerbate the existing problem with older
>humans. Instead of getting set in your ways at age 30/40/50/60 etc,
>instead you'd be that way right off the bat!

I would think that if the individual lived MUCH longer, (s)he would
physically mature slower (maybe mentally, too, to keep that flexibility)
and would be born what we would call premature.  That would be following
the trend in evolution, anyway.  Ref: neotonic development extended.

>Of course, the obvious solution is to preprogram babies with the "right"
>point of view right off the bat. But are we so sure that we know what that
>is, with our mentalities as relatively retarded as they currently are???

Yech!  You need a superman to design a superman.....

>> What we would get in replacement I would love to be able to find out.

And that was sort of what started this public forum on superman.

>Ah. Well, if *you* want to be in the know, I suggest we need a method of
>cognitive enhancement that will work on Homo Sapiens. That's what *I'm*
>hoping for. I've been working on a conceptual design for a computer system
>to do so for the last decade, but mostly what I've found are blind alleys.
>Though there *are* some promising avenues of attack...

Cerebral cyborg? Reminds me of a story I once started to write about a
decade or so ago that sort of petered out.....

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 14 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 208

Today's Topics:

		Books - Asprin & Cabell & Cadigan & Dick &
                        Stirling & Reality Subversion (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 15:31:41 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Questions about Asprin's Myth Series

IMSGTAM@ucccvm1.BITNET writes:
> "In Robert Asprin's Myth Series, who (what) was the blue gremlin
> following Ajax around (and why for 200 years)?  Also, what did Gleep, the
> baby dragon, discuss in the middle of the Battlefield and why did the
> adult back off from Gleep?"

I haven't seen that particular reference (I'm a little behind on reading
the "Myth" series) but I think I can make a pretty good guess.  This will
ramble a bit since it depends on some fairly old material that wasn't
widely circulated.

Many years ago . . . Bob Asprin and Phil Foglio wrote a spoof called "The
Capture" about what would have happened if 1. the "Bermuda Triangle"
disappearances were caused by aliens studying Earth and 2. they had put the
snatch on the cruise ship that sat offshore to watch the only Apollo night
launch (17?).  Just think . . . a whole shipful of SF writers, editors,
fans, . . . and artists.  There is a running gag in "The Capture" that "the
gremlin" wants a tube of cobalt blue paint and the alien command structure
insists that "gremlins do not exist."  The gremlin is Kelly Freas--and
eventully causes the alien ship to crash in Lake Michigan.  There are also
references to Pournelle (and his drinking habits) and various well known
editors.

Hal Heydt
Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 88 15:49:54 GMT
From: cjk@celerity.uucp (chris kevlahan )
Subject: Jurgon (was Job -- love or hate)

Another Author who loved to poke holes into organized religion was James
Branch Cabell.  Many of his books where banned in libraries and bookstores
up into the late `50s.

When I read Job, I couldn't help being constantly reminded of J.B.C.
J.B.C`s books also contain the earliest reference that I can find to the
ultra-supreme-being "Kochei the deathless", the banker type god in
Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and Job.  Check it out, the name of the
book is Jurgon, by James Branch Cabell.

And, could anybody tell me the origin of "Kochei"?

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 88 20:04:43 GMT
From: erict@flatline.uucp (j eric townsend)
Subject: Hallucinogens and fiction

Has anyone out there had a chance to read Pat Cadigan's _Mindplayers_ yet?

Cadigan deals well with a society that approves of psychoactive use by its
citizens.  There's also some fun with brain machines ala Bova's "duelling
machine," and some ramifications of a society where being able to go crazy
for a few hours is not only acceptable, but a legal right.

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston Tx 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 88 15:57:17 GMT
From: codas!novavax!proxftl!bill@moss.att.com (T. William Wells)
Subject: Re: Dick-bashing

First, let me make perfectly clear (hah!) exactly what I object to in Dick.
It is not the idea of alternate realities, trick endings, or a
schizophrenic point of view that gets me.

What gets me (and remember, this is subjective; flames about opinions are a
waste) is that in many of the stories I have read, Dick seems to posit the
idea that reality is unknowable, that we are all essentially schizophrenic.
He frequently makes this assumption a major theme (or a part of the major
theme).

> A man is kept under sedation, restrained, as a lunatic, because he
> believes that "reality is not real" -- that the entire universe is a
> false front, designed solely for the purpose of fooling him.  The end of
> the story shows that he is right.
>
> A man becomes his own mother, son, father, and daughter, with no help
> from anyone else -- essentially creates himself _ab_nihilo_.
>
> Investigation into the nature of reality shows that reality is an ongoing
> collaborative novel by special people called "Authors."
>
> These stories are, of course, "Them" (or was that "They?"), "All You
> Zombies--," and --THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST,

I can't comment on the first story, since my memory of it is too vague.

The seond story is an investiagtion of solipsism and time travel.  I
thoroughly enjoyed it, in spite of my disapproval of solipsism, for two
distinct reasons: the first is that it shows the absurdity of the one while
posing a valid question about the other.  The second is that it is just
about THE definitive statement of the question (in fictional form); I
enjoyed it for its form.  (He also wrote a novella, _By His Bootstraps_ I
think, which, as I vaguely remember, dealt with the same themes; it was
nowhere near as good.)

As for the third story, you are absolutely right; he just plain went off
the deep end there.  Heinlein's conceit would make reality both
indeterminate and unknowable.  (And this is not the only place he has
committed the same error.)

> Incidentally, as I said in parentheses, Dick's and other, similar stories
> are not based on the assumption that "reality is not real,"

Unfortunately, I was not specific enough.  Damn.  Anyway, I hope
my restatement of my opinion clarifies things.

> but on a serious investigation into what "reality" is/means.  You know, I
> presume, that several eyewitnesses to a single, fairly simple action will
> tell inconsistent, often widely differing versions of what they saw --
> even though what they saw was, nominally, "the same."
>
> Dick, Borges, and other writers are not denying the nature of reality.
> They are experimenting with the "subjectivity factor" that makes it so
> difficult to determine just what reality *is* -- even, these days, in the
> laboratory where Heisenberg and the "observer interferes" principles (not
> the same!) make observation of quantum events an iffy thing at best.

Since I do not believe that this "subjectivity factor" is relevant to
understanding the nature of reality, Dick has nothing to say to me.
Rather, he seems to posit this thing as essential to understanding the
nature of reality; since I believe that attempting to understand reality
while presuming an unavoidable "subjectivity factor" is hopeless, his work
strikes me as meaningless at best. 

> What appears to a casual (dare I say shallow?) reader a callous disregard
> for "absolute reality," is in fact an attempt to deal with reality in a
> manner consistent with the discoveries of modern physics; the reality of
> a Phil Dick novel is a "quantum reality," where the order and nature of
> events are dependent on the observer (in the strictly Einsteinian sense
> of "observer") and physical objects are subordinate to the "missing
> factor."  Many of Dick's novels deal with the question of what that
> factor might be: consciousness, drugs, god, randomness, or some hidden
> law.

Here is another philosophical flame.  Neither GR nor QM makes absolute
statements about the nature of reality.  For example, while one rarely
hears about it anymore, QM admits an interpretation, superdeterminism, in
which everything, including the boundary conditions, can have one and only
one value.  (Sorry about the fuzzy here, today is yesterday, if you get
what I mean.) Pretty much, the philosophy you get from any scientific
theory is the one you have when you are trying to understand it.  This is
because the philosophy you are using conditions your understanding of the
terms within the theory.

> Suggest you give him another try with the principles of modern physics
> firmly in mind.  The best books to start with would be THE MAN IN THE
> HIGH CASTLE, FLOW MY TEARS THE POLICEMAN SAID, and A SCANNER DARKLY.  I
> think you'll be surprised at how much "reality" there really is in these
> works...and perhaps you'll begin to question just who the *real* "hard
> science" writers are.

And, given my previous point, said principles are not relevant.
(B.T.W.  I have read all three.)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 88 18:21:33 GMT
From: mtgzy!ecl@mtune.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: MARCHING THROUGH GEORGIA by S. M. Stirling

		MARCHING THROUGH GEORGIA by S. M. Stirling
			 Baen, 1988, 0-671-65407-1
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
			      [**Spoilers**]

     Let's get one thing clear straight off--when Stirling talks about
"marching through Georgia," he ain't talkin' Savannah.  As the tag line
says, "You don't know how lucky you are, boys...."  In other words, we're
back in the U.S.S.R.  But not the U.S.S.R. we know.  No, this is (you
guessed it) an alternate history in which Loyalists fleeing the United
States during the American Revolution founded the Domination of the Draka
in South Africa.  The Draka have maintained serfdom, but achieved female
equality.  They have developed technology faster than we have in our
universe, but then it seems to have gotten stuck so that World War II is
being fought with a similar level of technology in both universes.  All
this seems contrived for the author's convenience, so that he can show
scenes of decadent life on the estate on one page and women in combat on
the next.  After a few hundred pages of combat, Stirling ties in all up far
too neatly and quickly.  The good guys win, the pseudo-villains see the
light of day, and the really bad guys are dead.  Ho-hum.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP:	att!mtgzy!ecl or ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA:	ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 18:56:14 GMT
From: db@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (D Berry)
Subject: Re: Reality Subversion

>The idea that *I* really enjoy, and seems to be a hallmark of much modern
>literature, is that *fiction* is not real.  The Critics have picked up on
>this and made a (wonderful) mess out of Criticism, but when it is worked
>into fiction, and worked into it *well*, the result can be ast- onishing.
>Such works cannot be described or summarized: they must be experienced.
>
>The appeal, usually, of such fiction is that the reader *has* to
>participate.  The common assumptions behind standard fiction have been
>kicked out, and the reader has to re-orient himself from scratch.

A style that *I* really enjoy is one that presents the reader with
different characters' views of reality.  Reality can be presumed to be
"real", but the reader is never presented with a clear picture of what
reality is.

Examples:

"A Cruel Madness" by Colin Thubron.  This is about a nervous schoolmaster
and his love for a woman.  At least that's how it starts out.  By the end
everything's changed.  It's not a book where you're supposed to be shocked
by each new twist; the twists are signalled in advance, and seem almost
inevitable when they finally appear.  Furthermore, the true nature of the
relationship is probably impossible to determine from the various version
given, and it doesn't really matter.

"Life Before Man" by Margaret Atwood.  This book has events and
relationships viewed by four different characters, each casting their own
prejudices and images of each other onto what they see.  The book is
primarily about relationships; the idea of "what is real" is secondary, but
it's very well done.  This is something Atwood is good at; I was
disappointed when she wrote "The Handmaid's Tale" from one point of view.

"Neveryona" by Samuel Delany.  Most of Delany's work since 1970 has looked
at how communication can never be perfect, how one person's description of
events generates different images to someone else.  Neveryona is my
favourite of these works.  It's set in a non-magical fantasy world, linked
to some feminist re-tellings of pre-history.  Much of the book concerns the
heroes Gorgik the Liberator and Raven, or rather the rumours, secrets and
suppositions surrounding them.  These rumours seem to be exaggerated, but
what exactly is real is never fully explained.  "Neveryona" is about more
than this, but this aspect is interesting in itself.

"Bethany" by Anita Mason.  This is about what happens when two women who
live in a country house invite a hippie called Simon and one or two others
to live with them and start a sort of commune.  Simon dominates their lives
by force of character.  For 120 pages I kept swearing at him to stop being
such a hypocrite and to stop manipulating all the people around him.  (I
know swearing at fictional characters is rather pointless, but Simon is
*very* infuriating!).  Then things fall apart, and one of the women is left
trying to work out exactly what happened. In this, she shares the reader's
viewpoint.  "Bethany" isn't as well paced as Mason's second novel, "The
Illusionist", but it's still well worth reading.

Dave Berry
db%lfcs.ed.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 10:20:39 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Reality Subversion

db@its63b (D Berry) writes:
>A style that *I* really enjoy is one that presents the reader with
>different characters' views of reality.  Reality can be presumed to be
>"real", but the reader is never presented with a clear picture of what
>reality is.

You might like Gilbert Sorrentino.  He is marvelous at playing multiple
points of view against each other.  I've only recently discovered him, and
have read just a few of his books; the best and most intriguing was
_Mulligan Stew_.

The basic premise is that Tony Lamont, part-time avant-garde novelist and
apparently full-time jerkoff, is writing a mystery, tentatively named
_Guinea Red_.  He starts off in a good mood, his sister is get- ting
married, a professor is planning to use Lamont's works as the central focus
for a course in American avant-garde fiction, life couldn't be happier.
And then things slowly go wrong for him, from *every* direction.

_Mulligan Stew_ has no narrator.  There are chapters from the novel-
in-progress.  There are pieces from Lamont's junk mail that he finds
interesting.  There are Lamont's numerous letters, to his sister, the
professor, his ex-wife, etc.  A chapter from his brother-in-law's
Irish-Western in progress.  A baseball score card.  Etc.  The front
endpiece consists of some rather suspicious looking rejection letters for
_Mulligan Stew_ itself!  Most interesting are the journal excerpts from
Martin Halpin, the main character of _Guinea Red_.  We read some chapter
from _Guinea Red_, forming our opinion of Lamont's talents (generally bad).
We then get to see Lamont write to his sister about how wonderful the
current chapter is.  We then get to see Halpin complain viciously about the
chapter that he's just been incompetently written into.

As the novel progresses, Lamont gets more and more suspicious of those
around him.  The characters in his novel, meanwhile, spend more and more
time exploring the fictional space they live in, and generally try to avoid
their expected roles.  _Guinea Red_ visibly degenerates from all these
pressures, and is eventually renamed _Crocodile Tears_.  Along the way, the
most assorted variety of styles since James Joyce _Ulysses_ is run by with
dizzying panache and parody: from mutant mathematics to weirdo western to
exotic erotic to asinine avant-garde.

_Mulligan Stew_ is an astonishing book.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 21:55:00 GMT
From: chrispi@microsoft.uucp (Chris Pirih)
Subject: Re: Reality Subversion

db@itspna.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) writes:
>A style that *I* really enjoy is one that presents the reader with
>different characters' views of reality.  Reality can be presumed to be
>"real", but the reader is never presented with a clear picture of what
>reality is.

Another example is a short story by Robert Sheckley...  I can't seem to
remember the title or the anthology where I read it.  Anyway, it's three
different versions of the same story, about a Chef, a Waiter, and a
Customer, one version told by each of those characters.  Which is the
"real" story?  Welllll...  Sheckley seems to like this three-different-
tellings-of-the-same-story technique; he uses it a lot in
_The_Journey_of_Joenes_, too.

Are there any other Sheckley lovers out there?  Does anybody have a
bibliography?  I keep finding stray books I'd never heard of in musty
corners of used-book-stores, and I wonder how many more there are.

Chris Pirih

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 15 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 209

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Cabell (2 msgs) & Forward & Hawking &
                       Sheckley & Sheffield & Zelazny &
                       Title Request & An Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 20:59:56 GMT
From: hoey@ai.etl.army.mil (Dan Hoey)
Subject: Re: Jurgen (was Job -- love or hate)

cjk@celerity.UUCP (chris kevlahan ) writes:
>When I read Job, I couldn't help being constantly reminded of [James
>Branch Cabell].

Job lifted several elements from Cabell's Jurgen.  I have heard it claimed
that Job was a fairly direct adaptation of Jurgen, but I don't see a full
parallel.

>J.B.C.'s books also contain the earliest reference that I can find to the
>ultra-supreme-being "Kochei the deathless"....

That's ``Koschei'', and He is an invention of Cabell's.  It is easy to
believe otherwise unless you realize that all the citations in Cabell's
novels are to fictitious works invented by Cabell.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 02:06:40 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Jurgen (not Jurgon) (was Job -- love or hate)

cjk@celerity.UUCP (chris kevlahan ) writes:
>Another Author who loved to poke holes into organized religion was
>James Branch Cabell.

I might note that _Job_ and _Jurgen share a subtitle -- ``A Comedy of
Justice''.  This is almost certainly deliberate on Heinlein's part.

>When I read Job, I couldn't help being constantly reminded of J.B.C.
>J.B.C`s books also contain the earliest reference that I can find to the
>ultra-supreme-being "Kochei the deathless", the banker type god in
>Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and Job.  Check it out, the name of the
>book is Jurgon, by James Branch Cabell.

Jurgen and Koshchei are the correct spellings.

>And, could anybody tell me the origin of "Kochei"?

From Russian folklore, the personification of evil, sometimes a human and
sometimes a snake.  In the legends, he is usually imprisoned, and tricks a
bridegroom/prince into freeing him, after which he carries away the
prince's fairy wife, leading to a pursuit by the prince.

In the folklore, Koshchei is not really deathless, but just hard to kill.

It is interesting that Cabell treats Koshchei as more of a bureaucrat than
an evil being.  I suspect that this ties in with Cabell's notions about the
plain and ordinary in life.

Jurgen was part of a trilogy (within the overall structure of the Biography
of Manuel).  The other two are _Figures_of_Earth_ and
_The_Silver_Stallion_.  Jurgen is the final book in the set.

Richard Welty
GE R&D
K1-5C39
Niskayuna, New York
518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{uunet,philabs,rochester}!steinmetz!welty

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 88 06:51:55 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

quale%si (Kai Quale) writes:
>And boy, do I have an offensive book for you (if you haven't read it
>already) !  _Flight of the Dragonfly_ by Robert L.  Forward (yes, that
>one). I read _Dragon's Egg_ a while ago, and thought it wasn't too bad,
>despite the card- board characters.  But now...! Either Forward has lost
>his grip completely, or my tastes have developed : _Dragonfly_ is packed
>with toilet paper characters (who are crappy, shapeless and even more 2-D
>than those made of cardboard), dreadful dialogue and an infantile plot,
>the point of which is to convey a rather intriguing idea : Two planets
>rotating around each other, at the distance of about 80 kilometers. The
>idea kept me turning pages to the end, with a lot of hissing and groaning.
>The book is *not* escapist however.  Tt's too much work.

  In any discussion of _Dragonfly_ as "hard" sf, you absolutely must bring
up the most amusing thing about it: the "science" in incredibly awful!
Wonderfully idiotic "mathematics" (his main source being a pop science book
by Gamow: _One, Two, Three ...  Infinity_) with characters with IQ's from
hell who act like brain-damaged surfers. To me it *was* escapist trash of
the purist sort, a masterpiece of unconscious humor.  I laughed myself sick
reading it--might even re-read it one day.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith
ucbvax!bosco!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 11:59:42 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@mtune.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME  by S. Hawking

	       A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME by Stephen W. Hawking
			Bantam, 1988, 0-553-05340-X
		      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Stephen Hawking is known to the world for both what he can do and what
he can't do.  What he can't do is most of the things you can.  He suffers
from amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, a nerve disease that has left him with
little more motor function than a rag doll.  He can move his hands a little
and talk only with the aid of a voice synthesizer.  His mind is apparently
unimpaired--to put it mildly.  Despite his handicaps he is considered one
of the world's leading theoretical physicists.  The man who can't use his
body to scratch an itch uses his mind to explore time and space, to explore
quantum mechanical particles and the shape of the universe, to see back to
the Big Bang and forward to the death of the universe.  Now Hawking
expounds on it all in what might be the most popular science book since
GODEL, ESCHER, BACH.

     A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME is a little book.  The main body is 175 pages,
large print.  The book gives Hawking's view of space and time, all done
with only one mathematical equation.  Someone told Hawking that each
equation he put in would halve sales, so he explains in his introduction
that he uses only the equation E=mc**2.  The publisher undoubtedly feels,
not unjustifiably, that the general public's mental disabilities rival
Hawking's physical ones.  So Hawking keeps things simple for a while.  When
he calls something an ellipse, he explains that it is "an elongated
circle."  If you think such explanations make the book elementary, have a
little patience.  The easy ride last only for about fifty pages.  Then the
information starts coming faster and harder to follow or even remember.
What's more, at least once I felt the urge to stop and argue.  (I know.
"Of all the nerve!"  Well, Hawking argues against determinism, or at least
that determinism is of no interest if there is no observer making
predictions based on the state of the universe.  He glosses over the
distinction between "determined" and "observer-determinable."  But the
complete decimal expansion of pi is very probably one and not the other,
for example.)  Other parts I wanted more explanation on.  I actually tried
the "interference pattern" experiment on page 57.  You can do it with an
index card and a penlite in a dark room, at least it would seem so from his
description.  You just don't get his result doing it that way.  I shined a
light through a card with two slits and did not get the pictured
interference pattern.

     As the book continues, its comprehensibility--at least to me--is
spotty.  His philosophical points become questionable.  Mostly he is
building up to an explanation of why he feels the universe may have no
boundary in space and time.  Just as the parallels that are used for
navigation expand and then contract as you go south from the North Pole.
He says the universe expands and contracts.  And just as there are no real
boundaries on the surface of the earth, so there are no boundaries to the
universe.  An interesting point, but there are boundaries in just the sense
he is trying to avoid.  There really and truly is a northern-most point on
the earth and you cannot go any further north than that.  Further, he
claims that he once believed that in a contracting universe we'd have
memories of the future rather than the past; though he later rejects those
theories, it seems absurd that he ever would have believed them.  The mere
fact that the universe had reached the peak of its expansion does not seem
like it would cause the immediate reversal of anything like memory.  It may
well be that with the mathematics his heuristic arguments would be more
convincing, but without it much of his reasoning is most unconvincing.

     Finally, he finishes the book with anecdotal sketches of Einstein,
Galileo, and Newton.  These are not biographical sketches, mind you, but
anecdotes about how hard Newton was to get along with and how the Nazis
hated Einstein.

     Overall, there is a lot of interest in A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME, but
the book seems to lack a sort of discipline.  It seems more a collection of
related articles than a book with chapters that naturally follow each
other.  It is a noble effort for Hawking to try to bring his material to
the masses but to do so this informally makes the arguments less convincing
and it seems a much less fertile mind could have written the book and freed
up Hawking for work only he is capable of.  With his genius and his
possible shortness of time, the task of bringing modern theory to the
masses could have been delegated.

     It should be noted that the book has a useful glossary, though not
complete and with some definitions that could prove confusing.

     So with my two little Master's degrees I feel a little presumptuous in
saying this about a book by the great Hawking, but A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME
is a usually readable but flawed book.  My respect for Hawking's
accomplishments continues in spite of--but is not enhanced by--my reading
of his book.  It is decent but not great.

     P.S. It bothers me that I never see any references to Hawking that do
not make sure you know this is THE great scientist with the horrible
wasting disease.  Nobody ever talks just about Hawking without mentioning
his disability.  he has become "the wasting-away scientist," like "the
singing nun."  I have a number of popular physics books but only this one
shows the author on the cover and I suspect it is so the prospective buyer
will see the wheelchair.  There are three quotes about Hawking on the back
cover and two of them mention the disability.  Hawking himself discusses it
inside the book.  I guess people can only relate to what they understand.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 21:34:24 GMT
From: wenn@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn)
Subject: Scheckley Bibliography (was Re: Reality Subversion)

Sheckley is a good example of a writer who plays games with subjective
reality.  Although I don't know which short story you are refering to, the
novel "Options" is another example.  A Sheckley bibliography is:

<SF novels>
   Immortality, Inc. [aka "Immortality Delivered"]
   The Status Civilization 
   Journey Beyond Tomorrow [aka "The Journey of Jones"]
   The 10th Victim 
   Mindswap
   Dimension of Miracles
   Options
   Crompton Divided
   Dramocles: An Intergalactic Soap Opera
   Victim Prime
<SF story collections>
   Untouched by Human Hands
   Citizen in Space
   Pilgrimage to Earth
   Notions: Unlimited
   The Store of Infinity
   Shards of Space
   The People Trap
   Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?
   The Robot Who Looked Like Me
   The Wonderful World of Robert Sheckley
   Is THAT What People Do?
<Not SF>
   Calibre .50
   Dead Run
   Live Gold
   White Death
   The Man in the Water
   The Game of X

John

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 16:03:56 GMT
From: fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox)
Subject: choose your universe (Sheffield)

Here's a new universe which no one has mentioned yet.  Warning: SPOILERS
from Charles Sheffield's Between the Stokes of Night follow!!!!!!!!!!!

In Sheffield's book, a nuclear war in 2010 destroys all human civilization
(as well as all humans).  However, some space colonies and space arcologies
survive and try to continue the human race.  In the meantime, a small group
of scientists have discovered that a drastically altered metabolic rate is
possible to exist in.  This metabolism allows humans to live at a rate of
2000 times slower than normal.  This means that 1 year in this state
(called S-space) is actually 2000 Earth years!!!  A society of people
living in S-space evolves while the rest of the human race tries to
populate the rest of the Solar System and the arcologies leave the system
looking for a new world to settle.  27000 years later, the society in
S-space find the arcologies have settled various worlds within 20 light
years of earth.  This has only been 13 years in S-space.

Among the benefits of living in S-space are a prolonged life on the order
of 20 times, which means that someone living in S-space could conceivably
live until the year 3,400,000 (earth year).  Also, travelling at .1 of the
speed of light (which is the capacity of their space ships) means that
travel between stars can be accomplished in weeks (S-space weeks that is).
And when the travellers return some months later, centuries will have
passed.

This universe not only allows a long life (2000 years or so), it also
allows time travel into the future and easy space travel!!!!

Another metabolic state is also found (called T-state) which is on the
order of a million to 1 (i.e. 1 second in T-state is a million seconds in
ordinary time).  Travel between T-state, S-space and normal time are
possible so that one could go into T-state for a couple of minutes and come
out many millenium into the future to see how man has progressed.  In fact,
the book ends as one of the characters watches the final collapse of the
Universe.

Richard Fox
Department of Computer and Information Science
The Ohio State University

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 18:09:04 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Zelazny

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Da Roach) writes:
>mark@navtech.uucp (Mark Stevans) writes:
>>Roger Zelazny, 
> 
>Another self-abusive talent.  Once upon a time he wrote incredible books.
>Now he's into schlocky self-cannibalizing repitions.  Steer clear of
>anything from 1974 on.

   Ahem.  What about the Legion stories (Home is the Hangman won a Hugo and
deserved it), 24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai (also won a very deserved
Hugo), Unicorn Variations (Not as good on paper as it was when he read it,
but still fun.)  Doorways in the Sand was nominated for the Hugo, and is
one of his best books.
   I'll agree that he never has matched the success of the period from 1966
to 1971, when viewed over a body of work, but there are still flashes of
the talent that caught our attention...  ( A friend blames it on his second
marriage...)
 
vnend@engr.uky.edu
cn0001dj@ukcc.uky.edu
mc.david@ukpr.uky.edu
...!ukma!ukecc!vnend      

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 19:17:43 GMT
From: cpt96924@dcscg1.uucp (Julia J. Barker)
Subject: Let's play - "Name That Novel"

Help!  Back about five years ago I borrowed a book from a friend.  I've
since lost touch with the friend but would love to get a copy of this book.
Thumbnail sketch follows, any and all help will be appreciated.

The setting is earth after numerous nasty happenings.  The Earth's
population is out of control and several of the world leaders are planning
to escape with their families to a space colony.  Meanwhile a test-tube
created boy escapes from this space colony to get to Earth in order to
experience "real life".  He gets involved with several different characters
on Earth including the Middle Eastern daughter of one of the world leaders.
She is actually a type of terrorist known as Scheherazade.  The boy I think
is called David and he has a receiver impanted in his tooth which allows
him to communicate with a master computer on the colony.  He is quite
surprised when it doesn't work on Earth.  I remember other details but I
think this is the main outline of the plot.  Many adventures ensue before
David and the other people he meets end up back at the space colony.  At
the end, they are all infected with a deadly virus and must get back to the
colony to get the antidote.

Again, many thanks!

Julia J. Barker
DCSC-PT
P.O. Box 3990
Columbus, Ohio 43216-5000
... cbosgd!osu-cis!dsacg1!dcscg1!cpt96924

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 88 18:31:01 GMT
From: okie@ihlpf.att.com (Cobb)
Subject: Re: Let's play - "Name That Novel"

cpt96924@dcscg1.UUCP (Julia J. Barker) writes:
> The setting is earth after numerous nasty happenings. The Earth's
> population is out of control and several of the world leaders are
> planning to escape with their families to a space colony.  Meanwhile a
> test-tube created boy escapes from this space colony to get to Earth in
> order to experience "real life".  He gets involved with several different
> characters on Earth including the Middle Eastern daughter of one of the
> world leaders...

The novel you're looking for is "Colony," by Ben Bova -- one of the few
Bova books I've actually liked (besides "The Starcrossed" and "Millenium").
I don't know if it's still in print -- I read it about four years ago, then
lost my copy and haven't been able to find another.

BKCobb
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois
ihnp4!ihlpf!okie

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 15 Jun 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 210

Today's Topics:

		    Miscellaneous - Supermen (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 88 17:12:11 GMT
From: sef@csun.uucp (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: Superman

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>Richard Harter writes:
>You refer indirectly to some of this, but at the risk of explaining the
>obvious: the baby's head needs to be big. It's already as large as it can
>get.

Why?  My version of a 'superman' (intelligence-wise): allow the head to
grow from birth (no reason it shouldn't, except that nerve cells don't
regenerate), and also have nerve cells regenerate.  If the system is
designed correctly (i.e., nerve cells reproduce like all other cells), no
memories would be lost, and the being in question would probably be able to
live quite a bit longer.

Also, with respect to the helplessness of children (which I oh so artfully
cut out, so you'll have to find the referenced articel 8-)), I suggest you
read _A Darkness at Sethanon_ by Feist; it tells how the Valheru (who
qualify as supermen in *my* book [and his]) grow.

Sean Fagan
CSUN Computer Center
Northridge, CA 91330
(818) 885-2790
uucp:   {ihnp4,hplabs,psivax}!csun!sef
DOMAIN: sef@CSUN.EDU
BITNET: 1GTLSEF@CALSTATE

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 17:51:25 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Superman

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>Richard Harter wrote:
>> The superman might have an IQ of 200 as a norm for the race, but not an
>> "intelligence" that is to ours as ours is to a chickens.
>
>Maybe. Why do you think so? It seems quite conceivable to me that someone
>with an IQ of 250 might well be to us as we are to chickens. (I'm very
>well aware of the problems associated with the concepts of IQ and even
>"intelligence", but Richard asked me not to quibble, so I'm using the
>terms without qualms. I picked 250 because 200 is too easily within the
>extremes of the normal range.)
>
>I have some reason to think that humans who hit an IQ of 160 to 180 are
>about as far above average (IQ 100), as the average humans are above smart
>dogs, anyway. And perhaps dogs are to chickens as an average person is to
>a dog. (Using "IQ" as freely as this is making me grit my teeth; I'm on
>the verge of flaming myself! :-)

The hierarchy of intelligence is
   superhumans
   genius
   normal human
   chicken
   dog
   dog lover
:-)

I am skeptical about the asserted degree of difference between bright and
normal humans -- not very bright humans are very bright compared to most of
the rest of the animal kingdom.  We are more conscious of the differences
between humans because we take for granted the large stratum of things that
everybody can do.

The argument that we as a species are near the practical limits of
intelligence is a loose one.  The main thrust is that complexity theory
limits the kinds of things that can be done in any kind of processor.
Suppose you have an intelligent black box; what kinds of problems can it
solve?  Methods for solving problems can be roughly classified into those
which are linear (i.e. doubling the size of the problem doubles the time
required for solution) and the nonlinear (i.e. the time required for
solving the problem increases much faster than the size of the problem.)
The latter kinds of problems can only be solved for very small problems,
and increasing the processing power does not help very much.  Linear
problems, on the other hand, can be tackled by adding more processing
power.  So, if we had an intelligent black box that had available the best
method for every problem, it would only be able to solve nonlinear problems
for small special cases, and linear ones up to the limits of it processing
power.  In short, the kinds of problems that be solved is limited.  This is
a general argument that there are limits on intelligence.

Is human intelligence any where near the limits?  Who knows?  I find it
suggestive that IQ tests are, effectively, measures of speed.  In the
typical test there are a lot of rather similar simple problems -- the high
score is attained by solving a lot of them quickly.  Since IQ tests
measure, in a rough sense, what we think of as intelligence, the
implication is that much of what we think of as intelligence is really
mental quickness.  Are there major gains to be made by increasing mental
quickness (which would increase measured IQ)?

I submit that there are not.  The gain that we would look for is not speed
itself, but increased levels of abstraction and increased 'insight".  My
feeling is that these are intrinsically exponential in character, that the
cost of each level of abstraction goes up exponentially, whereas the gains
do not.  In effect this is a hard limit on intelligence; and I am inclined
to believe that we are not all that far from it. 

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 88 18:08:03 GMT
From: edg@pbhyg.pacbell.com (Elizabeth D. Gottlieb)
Subject: Re: Superman

For another vision of man in the future, see Vernor Vinge's _Marooned_In_
Realtime_, which shows man as evolving through time until the point at
which civilization basically dies off in a "Singularity."  With medical
longevity, people eventually learn that it takes a certain amount of
maturity just to *survive* through time.  Interesting note -- people
develop certain interests that, pursued over centuries, color their
perspectives and make them rather predictable.

It's a good look at what things *could* look like, anyway.

Libby Gottlieb

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 88 18:44:42 GMT
From: markz@ssc.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Superman

Anyone have any good examples of high IQ/high intelligence humans in SF?

My Nominee is Herberts "The Dosadi Experiment"

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 88 17:04:29 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Superman

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>The smartest dogs have a vague concept of quantity, but can't really count
>beyond three or so in a truly abstract sense.

I don't think this signifies. Most humans can grasp at a glance up to four
things; above that, they tend to perceive 'many' We have to manipulate a
symbol to arrive at a concept of 'twelve', 'twenty-seven' or 'a thousand
and three'

>Sigh...I didn't write the above very carefully so there's lots of room to
>nitpick me to death. Hopefully you can look past the exact words and see
>the concepts I'm pointing at. That vaguely reminds me of something else:
>Ever try to point at something for the benefit of a cat or dog? They
>*always* look at your finger!

This doesn't demonstrate a lack of intelligence, per se. What it does
display is a lack of a certain intellectual ability present in only a few
species; namely, symbol manipulation. Humans are capable of associating a
simple intellectual entity (a symbol) with an object, or idea, or group of
objects or ideas. When you point at something, you are using the pointing
gesture as a symbol for the direction of the attention at the thing pointed
to..now that I've written it that way, you can see how many levels of
interpretation that simple, obvious gesture amounted to. This must confuse
a dog terribly..he knows you want his attention, and that attention is
focused on a finger that is doing almost nothing..those humans are crazy..

What gives humans much of their power is this capability to manipulate
symbols, much more so than their ability to manipulate the universe via
their tools. The use of symbols in the form of language, spoken and
especially written, has given humans the ability to store and increase the
information they have access to, allowing complex technologies that build
on the work of other people, far distant in space and time. Symbols in the
form of religion or even sublimation has allowed humans to redirect more
primitive drives in useful directions.

Perhaps an intellectual trait we should be looking for in the superman is
an ability, like symbol manipulation, simple in itself (and thereby
realizable in a living brain) that has many and far-reaching applications.
Such a being, regardless of how human they might seem, would very often
seem as alien and confusing to us as a meaningless outstretched finger is
to a dog or cat.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
617-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 88 19:11:43 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uucp (Eugene Tramaglino)
Subject: Re: Superman

jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu.UUCP (Jim Meritt) writes:
>My approach was to try to determine what made "man" better (personal
>opinion) than animals, then try to extrapolate.  I would appreciate other
>peoples opinion of what "this" might be.  And once whatever it is is
>determined, how might it be brought about?

A true-to-facts mental alignment, based (for example) on Alfred Korzybski's
_Science and Sanity_.  Morals, ethics, culture, etc., not eliminated, but
understood as undefined terms or personal beliefs, rather that absolute
law, God, fundamental right-ness, etc.  Korzybski's work was an influence
on both Heinlein (read "Coventry" for a sample) and Herbert (the Bene
Gesserits, etc.  See _Frank Herbert_ by Tim O'Reilly for a brief
introduction to Herbert and his work.)

Eugene Tramaglino
1450 E Harmon 207A
Las Vegas, NV 89119
+1 702 731 4064
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 05:57:34 GMT
From: leonard@agora.uucp (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Superman

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>People, both in general and in particular cases, aren't very smart. We
>just like to *think* we're smart. I claim that any single individual who
>showed all the best aspects of intelligence all the time would be a
>superman. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci was one such, I'm not sure. There
>certainly haven't been many other examples!

H. Beam Piper in one of the Fuzzy books had a character speculating about
whether degrees of sapience were possible. He speculated about hypothetical
intelligence in which 100% of the "mentation" was conscious. "And would
such a being consider *us* to be sapient?"

This is a recurring problem with supermen...

As for different kinds of thinking, in his early book "Tomorrow's Chidren"
Poul Anderson has a mutant whose mind works in a "matrix" fashion rather
than be the linear logic we use. I can't begin to reproduce Anderson's
description.  But this man can follow our linear thought patterns only with
incredible difficulty. This seems reasonable as there are always
trade-offs.

>> 4.	Better birth.  The entire birth and childhood processes in humans
>> is pretty marginal
>
>Absolutely. Although it's not clear what kinds of physical improvements
>are possible (e.g. widening the female pelvis any more would start
>interfering with locomotion), it certainly would be nice.

Hmmm... is there any reason why the birth canal *must* pass thru the
pelvis?  True, this would be a major redesign, but the benefits might be
worth it.

>> 8.	The ability to transfer large amounts of information directly from
>> one superman to another.

This already exists. It is one of the prime differences between all known
(and suspected) intelligences and the animals. It's called "language".
(note the *lack* of a smiley! I am dead serious about this!)

Of course if you are proposing something that is as great a jump above
language as it is above non-langauge users, then you will not only have a
superman, you will have a creature that we cannot hope to comprehend....
(Not that that is a bad thing, but it is rather sobering)

Leonard Erickson		
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 88 18:41:28 GMT
From: troly@julia.math.ucla.edu (Bret Jolly)
Subject: Re: Superman

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) writes:
>Anyone have any good examples of high IQ/high intelligence humans in SF?
>My Nominee is Herberts "The Dosadi Experiment"

   My nominee is Vernor Vinge's _The Peace War_, which has several
fascinating and vivid super-intelligent characters.

troly@MATH.UCLA.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 21:15:41 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Superman

leonard@.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:

>>> 8.	The ability to transfer large amounts of information directly from
>>> one superman to another.
>
>This already exists. It is one of the prime differences between all known
>(and suspected) intelligences and the animals. It's called "language".
>(note the *lack* of a smiley! I am dead serious about this!)

Well, I seem to have lost one of the attributions, but everyone probably
remembers the gist of the discussion. On the high-speed communications
issue, I think the point was higher volume, speed, and accuracy. The
current situation is kind of like digital-analog-digital conversions.  Not
everything in the brain can be accurately transmitted or understood through
language. Any sensory data is very hard to communicate, for example. Also,
it seems that the brain must be able to process information at a far
greater speed than the mouth and vocal cords (or hands, if you're writing)
can convey it. Aside from the Logians (whom I mentioned in an earlier
article), consider the Bene Gesserit (again!).  Their process of "sharing"
transferred the entire contents of the brain/consciousness in a brief
touch. Imagine trying to communicate your entire life in words? It'd take
longer than the life you were describing, probably. And also, consider how
(in)accurately a listener would remember it after a single transmission.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 88 19:23:31 GMT
From: richard@a.cs.okstate.edu (Richard Brown)
Subject: Re: Superman

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) writes:
> Anyone have any good examples of high IQ/high intelligence humans in SF?

Pardon my tangent, but here goes.

_Sucker_Bait_ by Dr. Isaac Asimov, discusses a class of people who have
been trained in eidetic memory techniques from birth.  Their sole purpose
is to read _everything_ and let tie-ins come as they may.  NB they are not
required, expected, or wanted, to _understand_ all this stuff, so no
excessive intellect is required.  The basic idea is a self-aware data
repository, which volitionally reports cross- references.  What a WONDERFUL
idea! I envy these fortunate souls!  If I could be one, the state could
support my habit!

I once suggested that Mensa form a mnemonics special-interest-group, since
most of us already are addicted to reading anything in sight.  Memory per
se doesn't seem to be strongly correlated with whatever it is that IQ tests
measure, but the USE of remembered data re-inforces the memory paths, and
this does correlate.

Richard Brown
Computer Science 
Oklahoma State University
UUCP:  {cbosgd, ihnp4, rutgers}!okstate!richard
ARPA:  richard@A.CS.OKSTATE.EDU
BITNET:  ....CISXRVB  

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 08:02:06 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: Superman

tlhingan@unsvax.uucp (Eugene Tramaglino) writes:
>A true-to-facts mental alignment, based (for example) on Alfred
>Korzybski's _Science and Sanity_.  Morals, ethics, culture, etc., not
>eliminated, but understood as undefined terms or personal beliefs, rather
>that absolute law, God, fundamental right-ness, etc.  Korzybski's work was
>an influence on both Heinlein (read "Coventry" for a sample) and Herbert
>(the Bene Gesserits, etc.  See _Frank Herbert_ by Tim O'Reilly for a brief
>introduction to Herbert and his work.)

Sounds good to me.  Van Vogt, right?  The Null-A series.

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 88 21:43:50 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: superman

I quote from "Man into Superman", by R.C.W. Ettinger (@1972) after a survey
of sf & mythological references:

ETHICAL aspects of superman have often been stressed, and the types usually
fall into one of two classes: the social superman, who is a paragon of
altruistic virtues, and the amoral superman, who is generally pictured as
cold and calculating.

INTELLECTUAL qualities are primarily limited to memory and capabilities of
computation.

EMOTIONAL aspects are infrequently investigated, except for the common
trait of pride or arrogance; when they are, an emphasis on warmth and
empathy is sometimes shown, more often coolness and serenity.

EMERGENT traits, those which are more characteristically superhuman, are
often fantasies of the paranormal, extrasensory perception and "psi"
powers.

DEVELOPMENT of superman is usually through biological evolution, natural or
technologically assisted.

end of quote.

Comments on categories or their contents?

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 20 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 211

Today's Topics:

		Books - Adams & Cabell & Gibson (2 msgs) &
                        Lem & Trains in SF (7 msgs) &
                        Barlowe's Guide & Bibliographies &
                        Book Requests (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 07:59:16 GMT
From: msb@sq.uucp (Mark Brader)
Subject: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

One of the rarer forms of genre fiction is the multi-genre story.  They're
rare for at least two reasons.  First, their appeal tends to be limited to
those people who are fans of both genres.  Second, they're harder to write,
because the author must satisfy the rules of both.

To those who are fans of both genres, however, there is probably nothing
better than a good multi-genre story.  To move to the specific, I am a fan
of science fiction, and also of mysteries, and I love a good SF-mystery ...
and there aren't too many of them around.

(By "mystery", by the way, I mean a story where the reader is presented
with a puzzle and, concealed in the story, sufficient information to solve
it before the solution is revealed by one of the characters who has figured
it out.  Ideally, the reader's reaction at the end should be: "Oh!  That
was so obvious I should have seen it, but I got too involved in watching
the story unfold to think of it."  I mention this because the terms
"mystery" and "detective story" are both used inconsistently a lot.)

I think the best SF-mysteries I've read are Larry Niven's Gil the ARM
stories, closely followed by Isaac Asimov's first two R. Daneel Olivaw
novels.

Another multi-genre form is the mystery-comedy; here the writer must
present the puzzle while poking fun at the mystery form.  My favorite
example of this form is a movie, 1934's "The Thin Man" (based on a book by
Dashiell Hammett that I later tried and found unreadable).

And then, of course, there is the SF-comedy.  Harry Harrison has been
turning these out for years, but more recently Douglas Adams burst into our
attention with "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

And if you liked all the stories I've mentioned so far, then you have a
good chance of finding Douglas Adams's *latest* book simply excellent.

Because "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" is an SF-mystery*-comedy.
I think it is the first one of those that I have ever read.  I loved it.
And yes, I got too involved in watching the story unfold to see what should
have been obvious.

At least, until I read the back cover.  Don't read the back cover.
Fortunately, I had almost finished the book when I made that mistake.

By the way, it is the kind of book that will reward close attention.  Don't
skim.

*Well, maybe not strictly genre mystery, but close enough, I think.

"Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency", by Douglas Adams.
Paperback by Pan.  ISBN 0 330 30162 4.

Mark Brader
SoftQuad Inc.
Toronto
utzoo!sq!msb
msb@sq.com	

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 15:29:34 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Jurgen (was Job -- love or hate)

hoey@ai.etl.army.mil (Dan Hoey) writes:
>That's ``Koschei'', and He is an invention of Cabell's.  It is easy to
>believe otherwise unless you realize that all the citations in Cabell's
>novels are to fictitious works invented by Cabell.

Well, close...on the spelling.  Actually, the correct spelling is in
Cyrillic letters, so you shouldn't be held responsible; one of the letters,
which you corrected to "sch" is actually transliterated "shch" -- it's
called the "shcha."  So the name would be "Koshchei," or even "Kashchei" --
Russian vowel sounds don't transliterate so well.

That's right: Russian.  Koshchei is a figure of Russian folk tales --
though not as the one "who made all/some things as they are" Cabell paints.
The most common reference Americans see to him is in one of Stravinski's
ballets (I think it's THE FIREBIRD, but I won't swear to it; I'm not a
ballet fiend), which has a section called "The Infernal Dance of Koshchei."

Also, I believe he figures in the Baba Yar cycle...No doubt some Russian
lit/lang/history major out there can fill this in better than I have.

Dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 03:01:59 GMT
From: cscbrkac@charon.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

Scuttlebutt (and that may be all it is -- scuttlebutt) on one of the local
BBSes here says that the difference in the UK and US release dates for
Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is because Gibson's US publisher wants to
trim the book by at least a third before releasing it here, and Gibson
naturally doesn't like the idea.

I know such a thing isn't entirely unheard of...at least one of the
Hitchhiker's books ("Life, The Universe, and Everything") went under the
editor's knife between its UK and US releases, though not to such a radical
extent.  Any comments?

Lazlo Nibble
cscbrkac@charon.unm.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 16:34:34 GMT
From: codas!novavax!maddoxt@moss.att.com (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

cscbrkac@unmc.UUCP (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Scuttlebutt (and that may be all it is -- scuttlebutt) on one of the local
>BBSes here says that the difference in the UK and US release dates for
>Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is because Gibson's US publisher wants to
>trim the book by at least a third before releasing it here, and Gibson
>naturally doesn't like the idea.

   It's not true.  Bantam is bringing the book out as a fall release as a
marketing strategy.  Gibson's relations with Bantam are just fine, which
they would not be if the publisher had done anything such as the rumor
claims.

   (Bantam's also publishing Gibson's next book, a collaboration with Bruce
Sterling called _The Difference Engine_.)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 07:04:42 GMT
From: leifj@ncrsth.uucp (leifj)
Subject: Re: HELP

There is also a novel on the same theme by the polish (not to worry it
problably has been translated) author Stanislaw Lem called "The great
Futurist Congress" (or something like that). This is problably not what you
were looking for but it comes highly recomended. Lem is known for his
slightly surrealistic style and great sense of humour. Other books worth
reading are "The Cyberiad" , "Memoires found in a Bathtub" and "The
Stardiaries".

leifj

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 15:57:54 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

RML3362@tamvenus.BITNET (Mike Litchfield) writes:
>I was thinking of some books I have read that seen to form a sub-genre.
>... But there seems to be quite a few stories about trains and train based
>or dependent societies.
  [list of stories deleted]
>That's all my poor abused recall cells can take. I would be interested in
>any additions.

Harry Harrison's "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" -- interesting alternate
history in which the Revolution failed, Benedict Arnold is a historical
hero, and George Washington a villian.  They're building a train tunnel
across the Atlantic.

Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" -- very odd SF with a 19'th century flavor if
you ignore the page after page (after page after page after...) of
polemics.

Christopher Anvil's "Ideology Counts", along with the novel "The Steel, The
Mist, and the Blazing Sun".  The novel is NOT complete without the original
short story, alas.  Find "Ideology Counts" in Analog ('70s vintage, I
forget the exact date) before reading it.  It's an after-the bomb story,
where the Soviets won, but now the US is building technology they
understand (trains, etc) while the USSR is dependent upon pre-war
technology that nobody understands anymore.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 17:51:57 GMT
From: brent@rtech.uucp (Brent Williams)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

RML3362@tamvenus.BITNET (Mike Litchfield):
> there seems to be quite a few stories about trains and train based or
> dependent societies.  Some that some to mind are:
> 
> The Amtrak Wars.     
>
>My memory is really no good tonight, I can't remember the authors name but
>he is in England. The stories are set in a post holocaust N. America.
>
> Wheel World     Harry Harrison. 2nd volume in a 3 volume series that you
>                 really need to read together.

You're missing the best railroad - SF - dependent-society story of all:

Planet Story by Harry Harrison, illustrated by Jim Burns.  Published
~1978-80 or so.  Hard to find but well worth the effort.  Imagine what
would happen if Bill the Galactic Hero met the Southern Pacific!  One of my
favorite Harrison works -- every time I pick it up I figure out what one of
the bizarre names of planets, people, etc. means.  A definite 9+ on the
laugh-meter.

Brent Williams
Relational Technology, Inc.
1080 Marina Village Parkway
Alameda, CA   94501
(415)-769-1400
{amdahl,sun,mtxinu,cpsc6a,hoptoad}!rtech!brent

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 18:37:54 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

RML3362@tamvenus.BITNET (Mike Litchfield) writes:
>But there seems to be quite a few stories about trains and train based or
>dependent societies.  Some that some to mind are: 
>
>Celestial Steam Locomotive --- author ??? Pure drekh. Surrealistic Garbage

Author is Michael Coney.

   Actually this is a very good book, although obviously not to Mike's
taste, nor, I would imagine, to anyone with a 'model railroad mentality'.
I may be doing Mike an injustice, but I have trouble seeing how anyone who
is not mired in technical minded literalism would not find it a delightful
book.  I got the SF book club edition by accident and count it as a real
winner.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 18:01:39 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

There was a first-contact story serialized in Analog a few years ago called
"Rails Across The Galaxy", by either Offut or somebody else (who?).  The
rails in this case were six high-intensity lasers, three going in each
direction, and the trains would just put small light-sails into them to
travel along the "track".

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 88 23:36:05 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

With respect to trains, there is a Japanese animation series called "Galaxy
Express 999", which is a old-style steam train that plies the stars.

I haven't seen the series, but the two movies are pretty interesting and
the music is very haunting and spooky.

Jeff Okamoto
HP Corporate Computing Center
(415) 857-6236
okamoto%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com
...hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 15:15:53 GMT
From: linhart@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mike Threepoint)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

Well, about a future equivalent of trains, and a society dependent on this
mass-transit, you might look up "The Roads Must Roll" by the oft-mentioned
R.A.H.  I believe it's in his Future History collection.

Mike Threepoint
+1 (201)878-0937
linhart@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 12:28:21 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: choo-choo's

[About train theme novels]

Two more..

"The shadow of the ship" - Robert Wilfred Franson. (1983)

In this book Hyperspace is an infinite plain. The contours of the plain
correspond to the gravitational field of the real universe, the stronger
the gravitational field, the greater the depression. Distances are very
much compressed in Hyperspace relative to real space. Travel between the
stars in the more advanced societies is by *wheeled* vehicles. Less
advanced people, like those in the story, use long trains pulled by
Squeakers, elephantine animals able to make the transition to and from
hyperspace towing the trains.

A rather weird book. A very interesting idea, but spoiled by the author's
lack of scientific knowledge. Not recommended.  (*)

"Inverted World" - Christopher Priest. (1974)

The story of a group of people who have to keep their city on the move
against all odds, or face disaster.  A novel about how two perceptions of
the same world can, appear to be the same while being VERY different.
Highly recommended. (****+)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 07:43:33 GMT
From: ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter)
Subject: Re: Bartlett's Guide (was Re: Supermen)

'Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials' by Wayne Douglas Barlowe is, in my
opinion, one of the best books about aliens I've seen.  This one has pride
of place on my book shelf at home. I picked up a copy about three or four
years ago and was knocked out by the sheer quality of Barlowe's artwork,
the way he paints skin textures makes me incredibly envious and rivals
quite a few other artists of the same genre that I could mention.

I personally think his guild steersman is infinitely better than the thing-
in-a-tank that was in the movie 'Dune', even if he did get a few details
wrong.

In summing up I would recommend anyone interested in artwork to get a copy.
The only problem I have is that my copy is softback and the pages are
starting to have a tendancy to fall out.

BTW In the pages with all the sketches in at the back of the book, Barlowe
mentions they are preparatory for another book called 'Thype.'  Anyone know
if this ever got published?

Lee Carter
Hewlett Packard Labs
Bristol, England
ljc@hplb.csnet
ljc%hplb.csnet@csnet.relay.arpa
ljc%otter@hplabs.HP.COM
...!mcvax!ukc!hplb!ljc
...!hplabs!otter!ljc
ljc@hplabs.lb.hp.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 23:31:52 GMT
From: markz@ssc.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: _EVERYONE_ read this!!!

Before you email multimegabytes of info, check out the existing
biblographies.

Any big library should have 

   1.  The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy by
       Tuck.  This covers books up thru 1968.

   2.  Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature by Reginald Good thru 1974.

These are Multi-Volume lists of the books published up to a given date.

Another reference to check out is the October 28, 1985 issue of "AB
Bookman's Weekly" which has an article with 20 pages of reviews of
bibliographies and indices of Science Fiction.

Another reference work is "Cumulative Books" or something like it.  It is
(I think) an annual that complements "Books In Print" and is a list (one
year per volume) by author of the books that were published.  You have to
be a weightlifter to research thru a couple of decades of it though.

So pick an author, find the copy machine closest to "Cumulative Books" in
your libraries reference section and start typing.  Anything after 1974!.

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 21:42:21 GMT
From: jhm%scorch@sun.com (John McCartney)
Subject: book query

A couple of years ago I read a book titled 'Cestus Dei', about the Jesuits
(the Church Militant) in a galactic culture. EXTREMELY good book, but I
can't remember the author. Help!

!sun!scorch!jhm

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 21:24:26 GMT
From: donna@aoa.uucp (Donna Albino)
Subject: Help identifying a book, please!

There seems to be some success stories for people wanting to identify a
book via Usenet, which prompts me to give it a try ...

About 10-15 years ago, I read a paperback about 3 or 4 kids who are trapped
in this huge place filled with staircases. (In fact, that's what the cover
pictured) They don't know how they got there, but they search around and
can't find anyone else. They get hungry. They find a machine of some kind
among the staircases. They are still hungry. They move around the machine
in frustration, and suddenly something clicks and some food comes out of
the machine. They repeat their movements. More food comes out of the
machine. The machine eventually stops working and they eat what came out.

They investigate with different things over the next few days and weeks.
The machine doesn't always give them food when they repeat a series of
movements that the day before yielded food. It starts giving less food.
Finally they start fighting each other in hunger and frustration and the
machine pours forth food. They discover the secret; the machine wants them
to fight each other. Eventually, they are let out of this staircased place,
and (I think this was it, but I'm not sure) some government trapped them in
there deliberately to train them to be heartless agents for them.

Does anyone know what book this is? Author? Title? Does anyone have an old
copy I can borrow, read, and return?

Thanks bunches!!

Donna Albino

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 20 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 212

Today's Topics:

			Books - Heinlein (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 22:00:46 GMT
From: dkw@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu (David Keith Wall)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

rgr@m10ux.UUCP (Duke Robillard) writes:
>... I swear that NOBODY talks the way people do in Heinlein novels.
 
Maybe they don't, but it would be fun if they did.  A large part of the
attraction of Heinlein's books (for me) is the dialog between the
characters; I love it when someone says to his wife "Woman, remind me to
beat you tomorrow."  I even use that one on my girlfriend when she's
teasing me --- of course I don't do it; I dislike unnecessary violence,
especially when it's directed at women, who, despite their equality in all
other areas, just aren't generally as strong as men.  Oops, got
sidetracked.

Anyway, I'm a smartass and enjoy it when others are smartasses :-) Wouldn't
it be great?  The world would be so smug and and cheerful it would be
UNBEARABLE.  8-)

David K. Wall

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 88 20:11:42 GMT
From: mark@navtech.uucp (Mark Stevans)
Subject: Heinlein: A Disrecommendation

If you have never read anything by Heinlein, you may be in the minority in
this newsgroup, but you may might better off staying there.  I know that
you have seen numerous articles by well-intentioned and open-minded people
saying "Some like Heinlein, and some hate him.  Why don't you read
something of his and judge for yourself?"  But one can sometimes be too
open-minded.

Why should you take the trouble to go out and find your first Heinlein, and
spend your time to read it, just on the chance that you might like
Heinlein?  Wouldn't your time be better invested in a writer you are more
likely to enjoy?  There seem to be many other SF writers out there who have
been recommended without reservations.  Maybe you haven't read any Orson
Scott Card, Roger Zelazny, Douglas Adams, Philip K. Dick, or Jack Vance, to
name a few.  These writers seem to draw mostly compliments.  Heinlein, in
contrast, has been described (to summarize many articles into one) as an
offensive, preachy, sexist, racially-fixated author capable of nothing but
praising his own cardboard characters, and setting up various straw men
just to knock them down -- all to repetitively publicize his often
illogical, and sometimes even inhumane, extremist political viewpoints.

Heinlein certainly seems to have some adherents, but even they are
open-minded enough to admit the validity of these criticisms.  The ones who
attack Heinlein, well, you can read those for yourself.  By the dozens.  If
you haven't read Heinlein, you may want to put him on hold until you run
out of more promising authors to try, which might be a very long time
indeed.

Mark Stevans

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 03:17:09 GMT
From: cbunjiov@wannabe.ads.com (Charleen Bunjiovianna)
Subject: Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

What no one has mentioned so far (you call yourself Heinlein fans?)  is
that you should hie yourself to the nearest good SF bookstore and pick up a
copy of "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag."  Read "The Man Who
Travelled in Elephants."  It was one of RAH's favorite stories and a
fitting memorial.

Charleen Bunjiovianna
Advanced Decision Systems
Mountain View, California

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 88 13:38:00 GMT
From: frodo@bradley.uucp
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

I thought _Job_ was very witty.  Heinlein did a good job of poking holes in
the things I hate most about organized religion, without really stooping to
preaching the way I do when I get upset about some new utterly stupid
pronouncement of idiocy.

Disclaimer: I do think there are SOME good things about organized religion.
They just get buried in the hypocrisy...

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 07:21:30 GMT
From: pst@comdesign.uucp (Paul Traina)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate

> Didn't anyone enjoy 'Job - A Comedy of Justice'?
> 
> I've seen both praise and denouncement for every other book of his EXCEPT
> Job.  Was it offensive to Christians?  Was it offensive to Satanists?
> Why doesn't anyone like it?

The idea of the story was delightful, the implementation of it was not so.
I really don't like to beat on RAH, but he could have used some forceful
editing.  It's been a long time, but my memory recalls that there were
scenes that were useless.  Over all, I enjoyed the story, but it really
dragged on.

RAH loves to preach, and in this case, I didn't disagree with many of his
premises.  I got a lot of amusement out of Yaweh & Lucifer being feuding
brothers, and the story really tickled my funnybone.  (But hey, I'm an
agnostic, so I can be objective (grin)).

comdesign!pst@pyramid.com
...!pyramid!comdesign!pst
pst@ai.ai.mit.edu
...!ucbvax!ucsbcsl!nessus!pst
pst@sbitp.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 05:16:12 GMT
From: galloway@elma.epfl.ch
Subject: Heinlein (subtopics armed societies/sexism/June Locus)

A few (long) points on the recent Heinlein discussions.

Re: Heinlein women and rape:

Many posters seem to be making the (unfortunately) common error of spotting
a characteristic in one Heinlein character and automatically applying it to
every other Heinlein character and then to Heinlein himself.  It's been
pointed out by many that Friday is a trained secret agent, and given that
it would be *very* stupid for her (or him if the agent was male) not to be
trained in advance to deal with the possibility of rape or sexual assult
being done to them.

But what about other Heinlein characters from other books? I recall one off
stage incident of rape, or possible rape. The incident that triggered the
revolution in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. And it was clear that in that
society which (due to a still high and originally much higher male-female
ratio) considered a woman's decision as to who she slept with to be pretty
much sacrosant (see Mannie's discussion with Stu on what would happen if a
wife told her husband that she would be marrying someone else), it was
*not* a popular action, and in fact was used by Mike to encourage fence
sitters to become angry at Authority.

In To Sail Beyond The Sunset, Maureen was almost raped twice, once during
the saturnalia near the start of the book. She resisted quite strenuously.
Later in the book, she describes an occasion where a greengrocer wanted to
screw her without her consent. She did not fight him due to being pregnant
and not being willing to risk harming the fetus, but managed to get out of
it.  It was clear that she did not consider rape to be in anyway a good
thing.

The final rape reference I recall was during the fight scene during the
Dora story in Time Enough For Love.  Dora did *not* wish to be raped,
however, she did say she would have put up with it if it had been necessary
in order to give Lazarus an opening to kill the three villains.

Even Friday did not consider rape to be a good thing, but simply an
occupational hazard which she had been trained (in some ways since birth)
to deal with.  *No* Heinlein protagonist as far as I recall ever considered
rape or sexual assult to be a good thing in any sense, no matter what their
attitude towards casual sex was.

Eric Green writes:
>Conclusion: While there are other Heinlein books which are demonstratably
>sexist (Stranger in a Strange Land, Time Enough for Love, where all the
>women end up in a hot tub in group orgies, while the men do all the
>action'n'stuff), Friday is NOT one of Heinlein's sexist books.

Sigh. As I recall, all the men also end up in those hot tub group orgies
too.  And women do part of the action too; recall that Dora in TEFL shot a
gun out of one of the villain's hands, Ishtar was the head rejuvenator, Laz
and Lor were the pilots of the Dora by the time they grew up, and that the
parts of the book which were set in the first half of the 20th century U.S.
would not have had a Modesty Blaise clone shooting up people during wars if
they were to have any accuracy at all.  In SIASL, yes, the two lead
characters happen to be male.  This is as sexist as having the lead
characters in Friday be one female and one male.  As I recall, Dawn and
Jill were co-second-in-command of the Church. Mrs.  Douglas was the power
behind the throne of Earth's government.

Hell, in one of his earliest stories, published in 1940 or so, Let There Be
Light, before he even met his wife Virginia, he had a fully competent
female scientist with a doctorate. How many other stories can you find from
that period with a similar female character?

If you look at the work, it's clear that based on his characters, Heinlein
has never considered women to be inferior to men. Different, yes. Inferior,
no.  Ditto his non-fiction comments in Expanded Universe.  And if you
consider any work since 1946 or so sexist, well, you'll have to consider
that a woman, who based on what I've heard of her accomplishments is
clearly in the 99.9 (or higher) percentile of humanity by many of the
standards that I consider important read over and approved that material,
namely Virginia Heinlein who from all reports acted as a first editor for
much, if not all, of their marriage.

I don't think it's impossible to dislike Heinlein's ideas, or consider his
treatment of woman characters to be less than optimal and still be
intelligent; I lived for a year with a woman who didn't and doesn't like
much of Heinlein's writing about women characters.  But at least she
thought about it and had good reasons for her feelings.  I keep getting the
feeling in these semi-annual "Heinlein: Whatever vs. Whatever" debates that
the people who are the most verbal about how Heinlein fans can't be
convinced that he could do no wrong appear to me to not have read the
material, or to have made up their own minds about what it's like before
reading it.

Maybe someone should write Spider Robinson and ask for permission to post
his Rah Rah R.A.H. article; it covers nicely many of the most common and
most mistaken criticisms which are brought up in these debates.

Finally, for the Heinlein fans who have read this far, let me stongly urge
that you buy a copy of the June Locus.  It contains an excellent obituary
(Ghods, what an oxymoron!) of Mr. Heinlein with many facts of which I was
unaware, as well as the first wave of appreciations and tributes by his
fellow writers.

tyg
tyg@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 88 04:13:40 GMT
From: newsome@dasys1.uucp (Richard Newsome)
Subject: Re: Did Heinlein write anything under a pseudonym?

DSBOGARTZ@amherst.BITNET (David Bogartz) writes:
> I have heard (perhaps even on SF-LOVERS) that there are quite a few books
> by Heinlein that he wrote under one or more pseudonyms.  Has anyone else
> heard this?  Does anyone have even a partial list?  I suspect this would
> be of great interest to a large number of net.readers.

Lloyd Currey, in his bibliography, mentions a rumor that Heinlein once
ghosted a juvenile in a series about a girl detective (Nancy Drew?).  Other
than that I haven't heard of any books RAH ever published under pseudonyms.

Richard Newsome
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!newsome

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 88 03:33:09 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: Re: Did Heinlein write anything under a pseudonym?

DSBOGARTZ@amherst.BITNET (David Bogartz) writes:
>I have heard (perhaps even on SF-LOVERS) that there are quite a few books
>by Heinlein that he wrote under one or more pseudonyms.  Has anyone else
>heard this?  Does anyone have even a partial list?  I suspect this would
>be of great interest to a large number of net.readers.

Another poster pointed out that none of his *books* were published under
pseudonyms.  However, plenty of his stories were.  Mostly, I think these
were cases were he had two or more stories in one magazine and the editor
didn't want that fact revealed.  One of the pseudonyms was "Anson
MacDonald".  This kind of thing still occurs.  John Varley's story "Air
Raid" was published under a pseudonym in the first issue of Isaac Asimov's
SF Magazine because he had a second story there.  But let's keep the rumors
flying.  Maybe we can inflate the value of some obscure books.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 88 18:57:18 GMT
From: well!dhawk@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (David Hawkins)
Subject: Re: Job -- love or hate **SPOILER ALERT**

dkw@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu.UUCP (David Keith Wall) wrote:
>dhawk@lamc.UUCP (David Hawkins) writes:
>>I've argued this point with others, but I'll repeat my conviction that
>>JOB shows that Heinlein didn't know theology very well.  But then again,
>>that might not have been his main interest when he wrote JOB.
>
>I'm not looking for an argument, but how about some examples of why
>Heinlein didn't know his theology?

What a dilemma.  A complete answer would have to redirected to
talk.religion.misc, which this site doesn't get.  So I'll try to give a
good enough general answer.

I went back and re-read J*O*B last week.  I think the book would have been
better if Heinlein had followed a consistent means of development thoughout
the book.  A lot of the fun of the book is the parts that take the Bible
(or current popular beliefs, which is a different matter) literally.  Then
he switches tactics at the end of the book and takes on the theodicy
problem (which is the main focus of the biblical book of Job.)

The theodicy problem can be stated as follows:
1.  God is all-powerful
2.  God is good
3.  Evil exists (or  'pain and suffering exist')

Various folks/groups have answered the problem by denying one of the three
statements.  Heinlein's answer is to deny 1 and 2.  Having opened that can
of worms, I'll say, that's ok, it is one of the common answers.  But I
think it was a shift of focus of the the book and detracted from the
overall effect.

As far as Heinlein not knowing theology: it's hard to get explicit since
I'm refering to what's not there.  If you know a particular field and you
read a book about that field you can tell if the writer knows very much by
the little details.  The little details are missing in J*O*B.  For a book
that's as wordy as it is, there was a lot of room for details, but they
aren't there.  (The devil reviews the book and says it's wordy.)  ;-)

If anyone wants to discuss the religious details above, we can exchange
email.  My background: Master's degree in Divinity (BS in Electrical
Engineering.)  I'm not an ordained minister or deacon.

David Hawkins
{pacbell,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 14:08:47 GMT
From: cracraft@hyper-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Stuart Cracraft)
Subject: brief book review

Robert Heinlein's "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" is an excellent book.

Years ago, I tried reading various Heinlein books and found them rather
awful; so it was with real delight as I leafed through "Sunset" that I
discovered a new Heinlein.

This book is the story of the universe of characters he's created over a
lifetime, all wrapped into one family; authors have tried this before
Heinlein, usually disastrously, but "RAH" pulls it off with style.

Here's one recommendation for a real good one...

Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 23:10:58 GMT
From: markz@ssc.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Did Heinlein write anything under a pseudonym?

fth6j@uvacs.CS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Frank T. Hollander) writes:
> Another poster pointed out that none of his *books* were published under
> pseudonyms.  However, plenty of his stories were.  Mostly, I think these
> were cases were he had two or more stories in one magazine and the editor
> didn't want that fact revealed.  One of the pseudonyms was "Anson
> MacDonald".

Brian Ash's "Whos Who in Science Fiction" gives the pseudonyms of Anson
MacDonald and Lyle Monroe.

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 15:41:34 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and sexism (in "Sunset")

yduJ@edsel (Judy Anderson) writes:
> Heinlein is obviously confused on the issue of sexism

I tend to agree (though I'm confused by what is meant by "confused" but I
think I get the basic idea...).

An interesting contradiction from "Sunset": Early on, Maureen accepts her
father's maxim that when somebody tries to convince you that something is
good because of "natural law", that somebody is selling you a bill of
goods, and you'd better check your wallet for good measure.  Yet later on
she justifies many of her own positions on the role of women, and swallows
many of her father's opinions, all based on assertions suspiciously like a
claim that "X is good because of X, Y, or Z biological necessity"... ie,
because of "natural law".

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 20 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 213

Today's Topics:

		Books - Dixon (2 msgs) & Forward (3 msgs) &
                        Kurland (3 msgs) & Martin (6 msgs) &
                        Book Requests Answered (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 07:43:33 GMT
From: ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter)
Subject: After Man

Also highly recommended is 'After Man' by Dougal Dixon, which describes
itself as "a natural history of the future."  Basically, take Charles
Darwin, make 'The Beagle' a time machine, then send it 70,000,000 years
into the future and note what has evolved in that time.  (Man having long
since become extinct!) Some of the creature are deliberate jokes, eg, the
parashrew(?!) which has to be seen to be believed! Although most are very
serious, and very ingenious attempts to predict what life on earth would
evolve into in the far distant future - buy it!

Lee Carter
Hewlett Packard Labs
Bristol, England
ljc@hplb.csnet  
ljc%hplb.csnet@csnet.relay.arpa
ljc%otter@hplabs.HP.COM        
...!mcvax!ukc!hplb!ljc         
...hplabs!otter!ljc
ljc@hplabs.lb.hp.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 16:21:51 GMT
From: granger@cg-atla.uucp (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: After Man

ljc@otter.hple.hp.com (Lee Carter) writes:
>Also highly recommended is 'After Man' by Dougal Dixon, which describes
>itself as "a natural history of the future."  Basically, take Charles
>Darwin, make 'The Beagle' a time machine, then send it 70,000,000 years
>into the future and note what has evolved in that time.

Very highly recommended! This is the only *interesting* book I ever foundw
in my high school library. (I liked it so much, I was tempted to keep it!).
The inhabitants of "Batavia" (the landmasses had also changed
substantially) were a scream, in more ways than one! Dixon also did an
article for "Omni" shortly after "After Man" was published, showing what he
thinks man will look like if, by some chance, he were to survive into the
distant future. Although much less believable than his animals, it's still
a rather interesting article. I think he also did some exo-biology
illustrations in "Omni".

(The reason I was so fascinated by "After Man" is because I thought it
would make a great setting for a science fiction or fantasy RPG.)

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 15:29:01 GMT
From: zellich@almsa-1.arpa (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Re:  Hard SF and Literary Quality

Unless he intended it that way, I seriously doubt that Dr. Forward's
mathematics or science in "Flight of the Dragonfly" are all that flawed.
He is, after all, a leading gravitational physicist.

His characterization and story-telling ability are different kettles of
fish, of course.  As I recall, he claimed to have had a difficult time
turning the original textbook-style "Dragons Egg" into a readable novel,
and had *lots* of editorial help doing so.  He's an expert in physics, but
a relative beginner in the craft of writing fiction.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 08:29:26 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu
Subject: Flight of the Bumblebee

zellich@ALMSA-1 (Rich Zellich) writes:
>Unless he intended it that way, I seriously doubt

You can doubt it all you want.

>that Dr. Forward's mathematics or science in "Flight of the Dragonfly" are
>all that flawed.

Considering that he has stated he writes didactic fiction, such flaws are
likely to be unintentional.

The mathematics, for example, is horribly flawed.  About two years ago,
Gene Ward Smith and I posted a very nasty review of the mathematical
errors.  People were pissed at us in net.space for mentioning that these
existed--and flamed us to put up or shut up, so we did.

The transfinite cardinals cracked me up immensely, because I immediately
noticed it came from a childhood favorite of mine that I've reread quite a
few times since: George Gamow _One Two Three ... Infinity_.  Gamow's
treatment is erroneous, and Forward repeated the exact same errors.

The approach to Fermat's last theorem and the many body problem were just
as bad, although we could not identify any particular sources.

>He is, after all, a leading gravitational physicist.

Leading?  Hell no.

He's a leading exponent of antimatter propulsion to the stars.  It may
indeed be possible, but the physics community generally thinks of him as a
crank.  I personally don't think he's quite that bad--just that he has
*severely* underestimated the difficulties involved.  He makes it sound
like it's just a question of buying enough screwdrivers.

Flaws in his books' physics is closer to opinion.  Flaws in the mathematics
is indisputable.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 03:32:01 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Hard SF and Literary Quality

zellich@ALMSA-1 (Rich Zellich) writes:
>Unless he intended it that way, I seriously doubt that Dr.  Forwards
>mathematics or science in "Flight of the Dragonfly" are all that flawed.
>He is, after all, a leading gravitational physicist.

  BFD. Forward *does* know about gravitation. In "Flight of the Dragonfly",
he insisted on writing about set theory and number theory, among other
things. In this area, he is about as competent as Bozo the Clown. This is
not contradictory.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith
ucbvax!bosco!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 21:42:21 GMT
From: jhm%scorch@sun.com (John McCartney)
Subject: Kurland? + book query

Does anyone know what has happened to Micheal Kurland? He is one of my
favorites, and I haven't seen anything by him in a very long time.  I am
also interested in news of his sometime partner Chester Anderson.
Bibliographies of these two authors would be greatly appreciated.

!sun!scorch!jhm

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 16:55:13 GMT
From: eric@snark.uucp (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Kurland? + book query

jhm@sun.UUCP writes:
>Does anyone know what has happened to Micheal Kurland?

The most recent thing I've read that he had a hand in dates from '82; it
was the edited-and-completed _First_Cycle_ that H. Beam Piper was working
on when he blew himself away in '64.

I'd characterize _First_Cycle_ as well-done but depressing -- and it makes
me wonder, because the good guys in it are a bunch of anarcho-capitalist
felinoids opposing a bunch of communist slugs. Is the politics Kurland's,
or was Piper working his way towards what, six years after he died, would
begin to be called libertarianism? Piper always seemed more like a
traditional quasi-royalist conservative to me, though you can see something
like a proto-libertarian ethic in his novella _Lone_Star_Planet_.

Before that, in 1980, Kurland published a rather forgettable SF/thriller
called _Psi_Hunt_. And in re Chester Anderson: I presume you've read his
_The_Butterfly_Kid_? That's actually #1 of the sort-of-trilogy of which
_The_Unicorn_Girl_ is #2; there is a last one called _The_Probability_Pad_
by Tom Walters, the third of that improbable crew of psychedelic
Musketeers.  It's the weakest of the three.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
{{uunet,rutgers,ihnp4}!cbmvax,rutgers!vu-vlsi,att}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 18:25:45 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Piper's "First Cycle" (was Re: Kurland? + book query)

eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>jhm@sun.UUCP writes:
>>Does anyone know what has happened to Micheal Kurland?
>
>The most recent thing I've read that he had a hand in dates from '82; it
>was the edited-and-completed _First_Cycle_ that H. Beam Piper was working
>on when he blew himself away in '64.
>
>I'd characterize _First_Cycle_ as well-done but depressing -- ...

_First Cycle_ looked to me like the background notes, history, and research
that Piper had done for a novel.  The story that I'm pretty sure Piper
intended to tell starts at the very end of _First Cycle_, when humans
arrive in the system and find the few survivors of this interplanetary
Armageddon.  The book is a historical overview of two alien civilizations;
there's very little story there.

I think Kurland took the background, which would have not appeared at all
in Piper's book except as bits of background, and mistook it for the real
story.  Piper's book, starting with the humans arriving and finding the 600
survivors on a space colony, would have been a far more interesting story.
(It's too bad about Piper.  *sigh* I really liked his work.)

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys Silicon Valley
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com 
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 20:06:49 GMT
From: john@hpsrla.hp.com (John McLaughlin)
Subject: George R.R. Martin

Does any one know about an author named George R.R. Martin?

I have read two of his books Sand Kings, which won a hugo, and Tuf
Voyaging.  Both of the books were very entertaining and I wondered if
anyone had heard of/read any other of his material.

thanx

John

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 02:22:23 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

john@hpsrla.HP.COM (John McLaughlin) writes
> Does any one know about an author named George R.R. Martin?

Martin is one of my favorite writers.  In 1974, he wrote a very engrossing
story called "A Song for Lya." "Lya" is about some researchers studying an
incredibly alien religion, and about the incredible hold this religion had
over one of them.  This story went on to win a Hugo award.  (This story is
one of the reasons I became a science fiction fan---it had an incredible
hold over ME, too.)  He wrote "Nightflyers," an intriguing sf/horror story
a few years back which was later made into a little-released movie (with
good reason, according to many net contributors!).

His novels include _Dying of the Light_, _Fevre Dream_, and _The Armageddon
Rag_.  _The Armageddon Rag_ mixes modern fantasy and rock music in an
interesting way.  He co-wrote _Windhaven_ with Lisa Tuttle.

For the last few years, Martin has been working in Hollywood.  He is
currently the story editor/producer for "Beauty and the Beast" and wrote
the episode that SHOULD have been nominated for a Best Dramatic
Presentation Hugo for last year ("Masques," the Halloween episode).

Also, check out any of the "Best of the Year" collections from the early
'70s to now.  He averages nearly one story a year in one of them...

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 05:14:05 GMT
From: tbetz@dasys1.uucp (Tom Betz)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

john@hpsrla.HP.COM (John McLaughlin) writes:
>Does any one know about an author named George R.R. Martin?

G.R.R.Martin (the R.R. stands for "Rail Road" - No kidding!) is a very
prolific writer, who has the distintion of being one of the few SF/Fantasy
writers actually to make a successful transition to television, being the
Executive Producer and central visionary for the highly successful CBS
series "Beauty and the Beast".

His writings are collected in many short story collections...  I have loved
his poetic imagery since I first read his work many years ago.

I would recommend you look for his "Nightwings"... and subscribe to IASFM,
which publishes his work with some regularity.

Tom Betz
ZCNY
Yonkers, NY, USA 10701-2509
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!tbetz

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 18:30:09 GMT
From: inuxf!matt@moss.att.com (Matt Verner)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

> Does any one know about an author named George R.R. Martin?

Pick up soonest these fine morsels:

Fevre Dream - An extremely fresh look at vampires in the 'modern' world.

Wild Cards - A series of books that G.R.R. Martin edited.  Very well done.

Nightflyers - A great SF/Horror novel.

I have never been disappointed with anything he has written.

Matt

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 88 17:00:37 GMT
From: jzitt@dasys1.uucp (Joe Zitt)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

john@hpsrla.HP.COM (John McLaughlin) writes:
>Does any one know about an author named George R.R. Martin?

Check out Martin's <The Armageddon Rag>.  He also is the mastermind behind
the wonderful <Wild Cards> series, and, I believes has been heavily
involved in the TV series "Beauty and the Beast" and (the new) "Twilight
Zone".

Joe Zitt
{sun!hoptoad,cmcl2!phri}!dasys1!jzitt

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 13:38:00 GMT
From: frodo@bradley.uucp
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

 George R.R. Martin is also responsible (as editor) for an interesting
series of books, called _Wild Cards_, wherein an alien virus is tested on
earth, creating gross deformities in 90% of the cases that even survive,
but the other 10% get "superpowers" (usually psionic in some fashion) that
they use sort of like heroes in the comics.  Within this premise, many
characters are created and written by several different authors, including
Martin and Zelazny.
 It may sound like a lame idea to some, but the execution is great.  I just
finished the third book (within a month of the first) and am looking
forward to getting a copy of the newly released fourth book.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 16:55:13 GMT
From: eric@snark.uucp (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Kurland? + book query

jhm@sun.UUCP () writes:
>A couple of years ago I read a book titled 'Cestus Dei',

The author you're looking for is John Maddox Roberts. I never read it
myself.  He collaborates a lot with a guy named Eric Kotani these days.
Baen Books publishes their stuff. I find it mostly potboiler.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
{{uunet,rutgers,ihnp4}!cbmvax,rutgers!vu-vlsi,att}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 15:57:57 GMT
From: girard@infmx.uucp (Girard Chandler)
Subject: Re: Help identifying a book, please!

donna@aoa.UUCP (Donna Albino) writes:
> About 10-15 years ago, I read a paperback about 3 or 4 kids who are
> trapped in this huge place filled with staircases. (In fact, that's what
> the cover pictured) They don't know how they got there, but they search
> ....  Does anyone know what book this is? Author? Title? Does anyone have
> an old copy I can borrow, read, and return?

The book is "House of Stairs" by William Sleator.  Highly recommended.  I
believe it has been out of print for about 10 years but I have noticed it
on many occasions in used book stores (in the Boston area, Donna) while
trying to find other books by him.  Are there any?????

Girard Chandler

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 22:01:41 GMT
From: ts@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: Re: Help identifying a book, please!

donna@aoa.UUCP (Donna Albino) writes:
>About 10-15 years ago, I read a paperback about 3 or 4 kids who are
>trapped in this huge place filled with staircases. (In fact, that's what
>the cover pictured) They don't know how they got there, but they search
>around and can't find anyone else. They get hungry. They find a machine of
>some kind among the staircases. They are still hungry. They move around
>the machine in frustration, and suddenly something clicks and some food
>comes out of the machine. They repeat their movements. More food comes out
>of the machine. The machine eventually stops working and they eat what
>came out.

The Embedding. Sorry, no author leaps to mind...

Thomas Ruschak
pur-ee!pc!ts

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 16:07:19 GMT
From: mamino@hpcupt1.hp.com (Mitchell Amino)
Subject: Re: Help identifying a book, please!

>About 10-15 years ago, I read a paperback about 3 or 4 kids who are
>trapped in this huge place filled with staircases.
>
>Does anyone know what book this is? Author? Title? Does anyone have an old
>copy I can borrow, read, and return?

I read this book a long time ago (probably about the same time that you
did)...it's called "The House of Stairs", but I don't remember the author's
name.  I've seen it now and again in libraries or bookstores in the Young
Adults or Juveniles section (I think).  Hopefully the title will be enough
to help you locate it.  You remembered the story pretty well for a 10-15
year lapse...  As I recall, it was a depressing book on environmental
behavior...  Since you synopsized the majority of the book, I don't think
posting the ending will matter, but here's a *SPOILER* warning for anyone
who doesn't want to know about it...

During the time in the House of Stairs, whenever they saw a blinking light,
they had to do a bizarre dance to get food or something...  After they all
were released at the end, they came to a corner with a traffic light and a
blinking Don't Walk sign; they all started dancing -- that's how it ended
as I recall...I remember getting goose pimples reading that last
paragraph...

Mitchell Amino
Hewlett-Packard R&D
hplabs!hpiacla!mitcha

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 27 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 214

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Cherryh & Franson (2 msgs) &
                           Gerrold (5 msgs) & Gibson (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 88 18:27:51 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: C.J.Cherryh: CYTEEN

I've spent the last couple of weeks reading C.J.Cherryh's newest novel,
"Cyteen" (yeah, I move my lips).  It's hardcover, I don't remember from
what publisher, it's at home.  HOWEVER, if you enjoyed "Downbelow Station"
(the Hugo winner), and/or "40,000 in Gehenna", or any of her other similar
novels, this is a MUST GET for you.  It is worth twice it's hardcover
price, IF you enjoyed those others.  It's NOT an easy book.  It's not
lightweight entertainment.  It is, however, GOOD.  I'll be very, very
disappointed if this one isn't on the Hugo ballot next year.  It could even
win.  It's approximately 600 pages of small print, and is an intensely
emotional, psychological novel about Union, azi, Personal Replicates of
Special Persons (clones of geniuses), etc.  Again, don't run out and buy it
UNLESS you really liked those earlier books, because it's more of the same,
in spades.  (I include this warning because I've been bored by others
recommended books, and I'd hate to do the same to you.)

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 19:20:10 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: The Shadow of the Ship

> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
> "The shadow of the ship" - Robert Wilfred Franson. (1983)
> [... synopsis omitted ...]
> A rather weird book. A very interesting idea, but spoiled by
> the author's lack of scientific knowledge. Not recommended.  (*)

Hmmmmm.  I thought the major flaws were the abandon with which loose ends
into the primary character's past were cast about, coupled with the fact
that the PCs were so much more competent than the situation "needed".  This
ended up making much of the suspense a little artificial.  (These two flaws
interact, of course: the characters' over-competence is as a result of all
those loose ends, for an example.  And loose-end-X just too often turns out
to be the perfect solution for troublesome-problem-Y for another.  I mean,
Hero trips over a rock so's he notices and picks up a paperclip in a scene
just before he runs into a madman who brandishes a deadly weapon-or-other
and demands "a paperclip or your life" CAN be made to work... but not often
and not here.)

But I didn't notice any unusual "lack of scientific knowledge" there.
Certainly not enough to downgrade it to "not recommended".  I thought the
fresh look at "hyperspace", and the various other odd concepts thrown
around more than made up for the problems, and I'd give it a (**) at
least... maybe a (**+).  Therefore, I'd be very interested to hear what
"scientific" flaws folks detected in this book.

By the way, all the loose ends, and the fact that the primary characters
have such extensive backgrounds has "sequelitis" written all over it.
Anybody know of other books by this author with these characters?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 88 13:54:57 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: The Shadow of the Ship

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
> "The shadow of the ship" - Robert Wilfred Franson. (1983)
> [... synopsis omitted ...]
>A rather weird book. A very interesting idea, but spoiled by
>the author's lack of scientific knowledge. Not recommended.  (*)

The science is kind of weird, but then it doesn't begin to attempt to be
hard science fiction. About the only place that you could accuse the author
of scientific incompetence is what's-her-name's (the book is still packed
after a move, so I don't recall her name) descriptions of her uncle's water
garden. First, she's an admitted airhead; second, things are so vaguely
described anything could have really been happening; third, even at the
worst it's no worse than your typical Piers Anthony/Alan Dean Foster/Spider
Robinson/Harlan Ellison/Other Weird Science Author.

Hey, I lugged the book from one apartment to another, so it's got to have
some value in it. In fact, I used the "hyperspace" as a special effect in a
rather successful online role-playing game. With appropriate changes to
make it a less hostile environment...

Peter da Silva.
...!uunet!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 21:44:22 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: HARLIE query

The blurbs on the new release of "When HARLIE was One" claim that it is
significantly different from the original version.  I scanned it at the
bookstore and couldn't find any significant changes.  (I think the
handwaving about the technology that goes into HARLIE is changed.)

Can someone who's read both say whether the changes are extensive enough to
justify spending real money to get the new one?

advTHANKSance

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 21:23:00 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: HARLIE query

Dani Zweig writes:
>The blurbs on the new release of "When HARLIE was One" claim that it is
>significantly different from the original version.  I scanned it at the
>bookstore and couldn't find any significant changes.  (I think the
>handwaving about the technology that goes into HARLIE is changed.)

I don't clearly recall the original (it's been a long, long time) but I'm
highly unimpressed with the new one.

I did have some fun speculating over whether the jerk protagonist in the
novel reflected Gerrold himself; if so then no wonder his relationship with
Diane Duane, so glowing described in his preface to Door into Fire, is no
more...

He's brought the buzzwords somewhat up to date, and only makes a few
glaring errors about technology here and there (e.g. that having a lot of
machine intelligence and computational horsepower is sufficient to make it
possible for HARLIE to crack the security of all of the most highly secure
computers in the world in a few months. What BS.). He mainly uses
futuristic coined buzzwords to gloss over his lack of knowledge of
computers.

What really annoyed me was that he spent endless pages on what apparently
were supposed to be brilliant insights about the human mind. Well, these
insights are taken en masse from the old EST training (which I did in 1974
and again in 1980). He even uses the same phrasings and quotes and
aphorisms and examples.

Big deal. EST had its good and its bad points, and I personally got a few
insights from it, discarded the rest of the garbage they packaged with it,
and moved on to better things.

But David Gerrold apparently is stuck on EST being the one and only modern
truth on the nature of the mind. Made it very boring. Not only that, but
the human protagonist principly serves as a straw man to be knocked down by
HARLIE's superior insights (from EST). He's otherwise pretty two
dimensional, and an asshole who's hard to identify with to boot. (The most
popular stories for the masses are those where you can really identify with
a character; the most popular stories for highbrow literary types are those
where it's totally impossible to identify; Gerrold's creation is in between
the two extremes, and is quite dissatisfying.)

If anyone out there is planning to write a book that is insightful about
the human mind, please don't use stale material. EST is by now about as
dated as Freud; they both have a certain amount of validity, but things
have progressed somewhat since then! Give the audience some credit. Using
material from (e.g.) Marvin Minsky's Society of the Mind would have been
far more interesting. I guess Gerrold doesn't think it's important to do any
research whatsoever. Just crank out page after page about subjects he knows
nothing about.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 88 18:04:56 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: HARLIE query

I got the Locus issue last night at home, and here's a few quotes from the
review of Harlie 2.0.  They are copyrighted by Carolyn Cushman, the
reviewer:

   Most apparent is the elimination of drugs, and related jargon.  Hip when
   the book first came out [1972. ek], the constant use of uppers, downers,
   and commercially produced marijuana...by otherwise serious scientists
   seems unlikely at best today.  Other changes include the predictable
   upgrading of the technology surrounding HARLIE -- Auberson communicates
   with HARLIE through a standard keyboard and monitor, now, rather than
   getting HARLIE's responses through a typewriter...The basic story of
   Auberson's fight to save the sentient computer HARLIE from the
   profit-minded corporation remains much the same, but the surprise ending
   has been replaced with a new twist of equal magnitude.

   The more significant upgrades are demonstrated best by the change in
   HARLIE's acronym.  In the original, HARLIE was a Human Analogue
   Replication, Lethetic Intelligence Engine.  Lethesis, according to
   Gerrold, is the study of language-created paradigms;...Where in the
   first version HARLIE's mentor Auberson comes up with a working
   definition of "love", this time Auberson's great realization is that
   love is beyond rational definition...Perhaps wisely, considering the
   speed of change...Gerrold no longer tries to explain much about HARLIE's
   physical workings, concentrating on the softer sciences of psychology,
   theology, and lethetics...Still entertaining reading, this new version
   has the potential to appeal not only to science fiction readers but to
   mainstream readers as well.

LOCUS, The Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field, is published monthly by
LOCUS PUBLICATIONS.  Editorial address: 34 Ridgewood Lane, Oakland, CA
94611; send all mail to LOCUS PUBLICATIONS, PO Box 13305, Oakland, CA
94661.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 88 00:15:39 GMT
From: kgeisel@nfsun.uucp (kurt geisel)
Subject: Re: HARLIE query

The only thing the makes the HARLIE story interesting at all is the novelty
of 70's computer technology.  Attempting to update it to modern standards
would evaporate the story completely.  Back then, they thought intelligence
could only be emulated by hardware that was beyond scale.  It was the
inconceivable cost of this hardware which endangered HARLIE to begin with.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 88 18:47:57 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: A Rage for Revenge

The good news is that David Gerrold has finally written the third novel in
his Chtorr trilogy and we should be seeing it next year.  The bad news is
that his new publisher insisted on having an entire trilogy to sell, not
just book three, so Gerrold has 'significantly' expanded the first two
books so as to pressure readers into buying the revised versions.

My experience has been that when a significantly revised and expanded
version of a novel appears, it is usually the same book, plus the parts
that the editor originally made the author throw out.  While that original
paring is often due to limitations on book length, it is often a
reflection of sound editorial judgement.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 88 23:27:38 GMT
From: maddoxt@novavax.uucp (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) writes:
>[1] I wonder if Gibson had heard of/read Jeter before he (Gibson) started
>the short stories that became Neuromancer/Burning Chrome?  I've been
>trying to decipher the Jeter chronology of books.  According to the P.K.
>Dick afterword, _Dr.  Adder_ was written about 1970-72.  (Assuming it was
>complete when Dick read it.)  That's way before the last big "push" of s-f
>(pulp or hardcore).  If Gibson wouldn't have known Jeter from a Trekkie,
>then nevermind.

   Didn't this all happen before (he said, suppressing a strong feeling of
deja vu)?
   No no no.
   Gibson did not hear about Jeter until long after the Sprawl had emerged.

>I understood Gibson as having said that _MLO_ was definitely *it* as far
>as Sprawl and other "similar" books to boot.  Anybody able to confirm?

   I thought I did.  Gibson said that.  To me and lots of others.
Privately, publicly, in print and otherwise.

>Besides Aliens III, isn't he working on a "steampunk" book (Yet Another
>Marketing Virus!) with Shirley or Sterling?

   Deja vu again.  _The Difference Engine_ with Sterling, bought by Bantam
here, Gollancz in England.  Also the screenplay for _New Rose Hotel_ with
Shirley, to be directed by Katherine Bigelow.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 88 14:40:44 GMT
From: pesv@enea.se (Peter Svenson)
Subject: Mona Lisa Overdrive (Possible spoilers) *********

erict@flatline.UUCP (j. eric townsend) writes:
>British (Gollancz) edition is supposed to be out 9Jun88.  American edition
>this Fall or so...  
>L.W. Currey is supposed to be getting it (I have an advance order in with
>him, so we'll see if I get mine anytime near 9Jun88 :-), if you have one
>of his catalogs lying around...

I got mine yesterday!  Have I been reading or what? Amazing that it hit
Sweden at the same time (OK, the slip said 10 June) as in the United
Kingdom.

The girl in the mirrored glasses are maneuvering again. Suede all over the
book as usual, and *some amount* of cyberspace. Thick slabs of solid
Maas-Neotek biochip circuitry, Sprawl, Portobello road, Yakuza hot-shot
daughters (OK, so she's singular), UK Special branch, loads of hypercool
upgrades in human 'hardware'. And TONS of drugs. crystals, powders, hypos,
whatever. Frightening really, but undoubtly lending that particular
cyber-dirt feeling to the book.

Gibson's actually even more 'skipping' things than usual. Getting very
intricate at details in surroundings, people, etc, impressions, often only
touching the actual storyline very delicately from a personal perspective.
Letting the reader (but not always the person in the book) understand
what's up. If you're reading carefully. Nothing for free and lots of
pyrotechnical wordage.  Beautiful like a newly minted rose of chrome and
gold, dusted with pearls of water.

I really love it.

And, yeah, the Finn is back too.  Sort of :-) (It read spoiler in the
subject didn't it, now?)

Find it.

Peter Svenson
pesv@enea (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 88 12:22:12 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

cscbrkac@unmc.UUCP (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Scuttlebutt (and that may be all it is -- scuttlebutt) on one of the local
>BBSes here says that the difference in the UK and US release dates for
>Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is because Gibson's US publisher wants to
>trim the book by at least a third before releasing it here, and Gibson
>naturally doesn't like the idea.
>
>I know such a thing isn't entirely unheard of...at least one of the
>Hitchhiker's books ("Life, The Universe, and Everything") went under the
>editor's knife between its UK and US releases, though not to such a
>radical extent.  Any comments?

_MLO_ is 251 pages long. Any attempt to cut it down would not leave much of
a story behind.

About a third of the book is set in London. Perhaps it is this bit the
American publisher is rumored to want to cut?

I suspect however that the rumor is just that, a rumor, and that there will
be very little difference between the releases.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 88 23:17:25 GMT
From: austin@sun.uucp (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ American vs. English editions

cscbrkac@unmc.UUCP (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Scuttlebutt (and that may be all it is -- scuttlebutt) on one of the local
>BBSes here says that the difference in the UK and US release dates for
>Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is because Gibson's US publisher wants to
>trim the book by at least a third before releasing it here, and Gibson
>naturally doesn't like the idea.

The British edition runs about 250 pages. The American version from an
early release proof) is about 260 pages. The difference in length is due to
the extra page between chapters in the American edition. I compared the
beginning, endings and various portions between. They look the same. If
there are differences, they must be minor.

I recommend it highly.

The back of the American proof said that there is a planned press run of
over 50 thousand copies. This is quite high for a hard back edition. It
went on to say that there would be an extensive North American tour by the
author. Might be a good chance to get to meet Mr. Gibson.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 27 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 215

Today's Topics:

		Books - Adams & Hawking (3 msgs) & Lackey &
                        Martin (2 msgs) & Sheckley (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 10:23:00 GMT
From: william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Ag

>  .... [advise: do not skim DGHDA] ...

Too damn right.  I was so satisfied with having got through to (near) the
end of the book with only a half-dozen minor questions to be checked out
that I completely missed the reasoning behind the sofa problem.  It took me
about a week to trace the answer!

Excellent though the book is, I DO WISH that Douglas Adams would refrain
from plugging Apple Macs all the time.  And there is one section where he
gives a complete breakdown of someone's audio-digital equipment collection
- - it was so detailed that I was surprised he didnt include a price list and
some sample tapes.  It isn't that I dont like Apples or MIDI, it's just
that if you don't appreciate what these machines are then you will hardly
appreciate being told the parts numbers, and if you do then the whole thing
will look terribly dated in five years. Suppose, 6 years ago, he had had
Arthur Dent using an Apple IIe and tried to impress us all with the sheer
computational force at the man's fingertips - it would simply look DATED.
Not something you would expect from a future-sensitive sf-author.

Does anyone recall the machine A.Dent bought in "So long ..." to compute
the location of his cave?

Bill
william@uk.ac.ucl.cs
william@cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 19:55:29 GMT
From: doug-merritt@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME  by S. Hawking

Mark Leeper reviews:
>A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME by Stephen W. Hawking [...]
>  Despite his handicaps he is considered one of the world's leading
>theoretical physicists.

Some of the material at the start of the book makes me think that his
accomplishments may be *because* of his handicaps. There's a note saying he
was considered brilliant but couldn't get interested in doing significant
work. Then he found out about his disorder, and then he started doing his
brilliant work. I'm not thinking simply "post hoc ergo propter hoc", I'm
thinking that the disorder may have motivated him.

>What's more, at least once I felt the urge to stop and argue.  (I know.
>"Of all the nerve!"

Arguing with authority is fine to a point, but it's misguided unless you
have at least as deep an insight on the issue as the authority.  Otherwise
you are arguing only because of your own misunderstanding.  And Hawking can
hardly include mathematical proofs, or even rigorous evidence, in a book
aimed at the layman .

>Hawking argues [ ...] that determinism is of no interest if there is no
>observer making predictions based on the state of the universe. [...]  But
>the complete decimal expansion of pi is very probably one and not the
>other, for example.

A red herring. The value of pi is determined purely by an axiomatic theory,
and has nothing to do with empiricism nor with the physical universe.  In
otherwords, pi has literally nothing to do with physical determinism.
Despite what feeble-minded Sagan said in Contact.

>Other parts I wanted more explanation on.

Understandable. I feel that way every time I read *any* popularization.

>I actually tried the "interference pattern" experiment [...]

Again, Hawking is not writing a textbook, so you should not expect to be
able to reproduce an experiment just from this popularization!!!!

> You can do it with an index card and a penlite in a dark room, at least
>it would seem so from his description.  You just don't get his result

No, you wouldn't. You need to use coherent light. Got a laser? That makes
it easy. If you want a *deep* understanding, read any college level physics
textbook. Critiquing Hawking for not going into that kind of depth is
inappropriate.

>As the book continues, its comprehensibility--at least to me--is spotty.

I am a mere programmer, not a physicist, yet I found the entire book
crystal clear from one end to the other. One man's meat is another's
poison?

> His philosophical points become questionable.

I know, everybody wants to think that their own philosophical views have as
much validity as any experts'. I question this assumption, though.

> Mostly he is building up to an explanation of why he feels the universe
>may have no boundary in space and time. [...]  but there are boundaries in
>just the sense he is trying to avoid.  There really and truly is a
>northern-most point on the earth [...]

No there aren't, not in the sense he's talking about. The word "north" is a
wholly arbitrary distinction in terms of pure geometry. The fact that there
is a spin-wise north (and also a magnetic north) gives a means of
distinguishing two points on the sphere as unique. There are no such
criteria (currently known) for distinguishing any points in spacetime.  If
there were, you can bet that he would change his thinking on the subject
quite quickly, since this is a pivotal issue.

>that he once believed that in a contracting universe we'd have memories of
>the future rather than the past; though he later rejects those theories,
>it seems absurd that he ever would have believed them.

The fact that you find "the miracle of birth" absurd would not mean that it
does not happen.

>It may well be that with the mathematics his heuristic arguments would be
>more convincing, but without it much of his reasoning is most
>unconvincing.

Since I had no problem visualizing such time reversal (in a naive way, of
course) when I was 12 years old, I would have to say that your criticism is
again misplaced. You keep blaming your misunderstandings on Hawking; are
you sure it has nothing to do with *you*???

>     Overall, there is a lot of interest in A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME, but
>the book seems to lack a sort of discipline.

Overall I'd say that you are not a neutral reviewer.

>It is a noble effort for Hawking to try to bring his material to the
>masses but to do so this informally makes the arguments less convincing
>and it seems a much less fertile mind could have written the book and
>freed up Hawking for work only he is capable of.

Nice thought, but in fact there was no such book written. Or rather, none
that were as good as the one that Hawking has produced. Considering
Feynman's various excellent books, I'd say that in general there's much to
be said for undisputed masters to be the ones writing books for the masses.

>     So with my two little Master's degrees I feel a little presumptuous
>in saying this about a book by the great Hawking, but A BRIEF HISTORY OF
>TIME is a usually readable but flawed book.  It is decent but not great.

I don't get it. If you want depth, why haven't you read more about physics
by now? God knows there's lots of books out there that would have cleared
up the basic misconceptions that you state above.

Doug Merritt
ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
ucbvax!eris!doug
doug@eris.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 15:32:05 GMT
From: matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu ("Don't even know my real name!")
Subject: Re: A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME  by S. Hawking

I think these two are missing the point about boundaries:

Mark Leeper reviews:
> Mostly he is building up to an explanation of why he feels the universe
>may have no boundary in space and time. [...]  but there are boundaries
>in just the sense he is trying to avoid.  There really and truly is a
>northern-most point on the earth [...]

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>No there aren't, not in the sense he's talking about. ... The fact that
>there is a spin-wise north gives a means of distinguishing two points on
>the sphere as unique. There are no such criteria for distinguishing any
>points in spacetime.

The north pole is not a boundary.  If you go there, there is nothing
topologically or geometrically special about it.  Only when you consult
your coordinate system do you attach any special significance to that
point.  In general relativity no coordinate system is preferred.

Matt Crawford
matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 88 00:09:41 GMT
From: ins_anmy@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Subject: Re: A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME  by S. Hawking

doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes:
>>What's more, at least once I felt the urge to stop and argue.  (I know.
>>"Of all the nerve!"
>
>Arguing with authority is fine to a point, but it's misguided unless you
>have at least as deep an insight on the issue as the authority.  Otherwise
>you are arguing only because of your own misunderstanding.  And Hawking
>can hardly include mathematical proofs, or even rigorous evidence, in a
>book aimed at the layman .

That's because the "layman" doesn't know anything and is too stupid to
understand anything, right?  Whatever happened to thinking things out on
your own?  For me it is one of the main pleasures of life!  Please!
Science books should not be written on the level of "Look at this weird
animal"!

>> His philosophical points become questionable.
>
>I know, everybody wants to think that their own philosophical views have
>as much validity as any experts'. I question this assumption, though.

Oh, but they do have the same validity.  Zero.  Philosopers are a bunch of
fools arguing about questions that can never be answered.  The one thing
they have to watch out for is being inconsistent; otherwise they can say
what they please.

>>     Overall, there is a lot of interest in A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME, but
>>the book seems to lack a sort of discipline.
>
>Overall I'd say that you are not a neutral reviewer.

And neither are you, or me, or whoever replies to this.

>Considering Feynman's various excellent books, I'd say that in general
>there's much to be said for undisputed masters to be the ones writing
>books for the masses.

Definitely!  Or compare "The Dancing Wu Li Masters", written by some writer
who spent a lot of time talking to physicists, to "Quantum Reality" by a
physicist working in the field.  In "The Wu Li Masters", the writer throws
paradoxes at you; in "Quantum Reality", the physicist explains the roots of
the problem, going into the behavior of the phi wave and all.  It is a
masterpiece of explanation, going through wave theory without any
differential equations. (to say nothing of partial diff eqs or differential
operators)

Incidentally, the author of "Quantum Reality" states that the roots of the
book were his own wonderings about whether the conventional explanation of
quantum mechanics was really correct, which started during undergraduate
education when he was a "layman" questioning the "experts".  There is value
in questions; only through them does one gain full understanding (even if
you answer them yourself.)

Norman Yarvin
(seismo!umcp-cs|ihnp4!whuxcc|allegra!hopkins)!jhunix!ins_anmy	     

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 88 18:43:41 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Oathbound

"The Oathbound", by Mercedes Lackey is out.  It's not as good as "Arrows of
the Queen" (it's set in the same world), but those who enjoyed AoQ will
probably enjoy this one, although "The Oathbound" is much closer to generic
sword-and-sorcery.  (A swordwoman and an sorceress wander around fighting
bandits and demons and monsters...)

I was worried that it would just be a stringing together of previously
published material, but it has a reasonable amount of new material.  On the
other hand, the inside cover lies by omission (I assume there's no law
against it) when it states that chapters 6 and 8 are based on material
which appears elsewhere.  In fact, the entire second half of the book has
already appeared (with the most minor of changes) in Fantasy Book.

The background to this book may be found in Lackey's story in "Sword and
Sorcerss III".

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 23:32:29 GMT
From: howard@utastro.uucp (The Duck)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale) writes:
A discussion of George R. R. Martin's work, followed by:
> [ . . . ]  _Dying of the Light_ is Silverberg, not Martin.

It's always dangerous to claim that Robert Silverberg *didn't* write a book
with any given title, since he's written so many books under so many names
over the years. (Willie Siros assures me that CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS hasn't
tracked them all down yet, and he's generally right about things like
that.) But the DYING OF THE LIGHT most familiar to sf fans is surely the
one written by Martin.

Silverberg has done his bit for death, though. There's DYING INSIDE, which
has to be near the top of any reliable list of sf novels in general and of
telepathy novels in particular. There's BORN WITH THE DEAD, a, er, novella,
novellette, whatever you call those things that look like novels but don't
last as long. (This being an sf newsgroup after all, I propose the term
"novelloid" for pieces like this. It would certainly help out those of us
who can't count high enough to figure out what the right word is.) And then
there's THE BOOK OF SKULLS, all about how not to end up dead.

> Martin's short stories are orders of magnitude better than his novels.

I don't think Martin has written a story that's orders of magnitude better
than ARMAGEDDON RAG, for instance. I don't think anybody else has, either.
Would that Norman Spinrad had but read AR carefully before he went out and
committed LITTLE HEROES. Ah, well, it's differences of opinion that make
Hugo races.
 
Howard Coleman
U. Texas Astronomy Dept
Austin
ut-sally!utastro!howard

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 04:53:27 GMT
From: elg@killer.uucp (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale) says:
>lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann) writes:
>>Martin is one of my favorite writers.  In 1974, he wrote a very
>>engrossing story called "A Song for Lya." "Lya" is about some researchers
>>studying an [...]
>_A Song for Lya_ is included in the short story collection by the same
>name.  Another brilliant collection is _Songs the Dead Men Sing_. (Martin
>seems to be a musical sort of fellow). _Dying of the Light_ is Silverberg,
>not Martin.  _Windhaven_ is nice, maybe a little too nice for my taste; in
>my opinion Martin's short stories are orders of magnitude better than his
>novels.

Martin DID write a novel called _The Dying of the Light_. It was a good but
not outstanding novel, all in all, like all the other novels by George R.R.
Martin that I have read.

But his short stories.... WOW. "Bitterblooms".... "A Song for Lya"...
"Nightflyers"...  I can think of no other short story writer whose short
stories come to mind so quickly. Definitely a better short story writer
than novelist (although he HAS produced SOME mediocre short stories).

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 19:47:38 GMT
From: brucec@orca.tek.com (Bruce Cohen)
Subject: Re: Immortality, Inc. - Anyone ever heard of it?

doug@homxc.UUCP (D.SULPY) writes:
>In January 1969 the BBC 2 aired a television program entitled
>'Immortality, Inc.'. as part of a series of science fiction stories. Does
>anyone know if this was based on a story? Does anyone have any idea who
>wrote it, or what it was about?

I have not heard the program, but I do know of a novel by that title.  It
was written by Robert Sheckley in the late '50s.  The plot revolved around
a 20th century man who is returned to life in a future society where
life-after-death is an established scientific fact, and a standard
engineering discipline (without technological assistance only 1 in a
million souls is strong enough to survive the death trauma).  Sound
familiar?

Bruce Cohen
Tektronix Inc.
M/S 61-028, P.O. Box 1000
Wilsonville, OR  97070
{the real world}...!tektronix!ruby!brucec
brucec@ruby.GWD.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 11:56:51 GMT
From: arf@otter.hple.hp.com (Andrew Farmer)
Subject: Re: Immortality, Inc. - Anyone ever heard of it?

   Whoah!! Blast from the past. This was one of the first sci-fi books I
ever read (anyone flames me for saying 'sci-fi' instead of SF is a
train-spotter who's got nothing better to moan about) when I was about 11
or 12. I can't really remember it that well but I do remember that it was
by Robert Sheckley who I really used to like. There's some really good
short stories from the 1950's around in various anthologies and they're
worth checking out as well (Hitch-Hiker's Guide fans may see a few familiar
things....!).

Andrew Farmer
Hewlett-Packard Labs
Bristol, UK
arf@hplb.csnet
arf%hplb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
arf%otter@hplabs.HP.COM        
...!mcvax!ukc!hplb!arf         
...!hplabs!otter!arf           
arf@hplb.lb.hp.co.uk           

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 27 Jun 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 216

Today's Topics:

	  Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (4 msgs) &
                       Something is Out There & 
                       War of the Worlds (5 msgs) &
                       Demon with a Glass Hand (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG - "The Neutral Zone"
Date: 23 May 88 18:33:22 GMT

"NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu> writes:
>Does anyone know if this week's episode - "The Neutral Zone" was the
>season finale?  It had the markings of one in that it left a whole bunch
>of things unresolved to keep us wondering until next season.  Also
>Picard's remarks at the end saying that they must "explore new things" or
>something like that made it seem ending for a time as well.  	Any one
>know whether it was interest of fans and such writing in which had them
>bring back the Romulans?

"The Neutral Zone" was indeed the season finale for ST:TNG and they are
trying to set things up for next season which will feature the Romulans and
new alien species which will be so dangerous as to force the Federation and
the Romulans to work together. Fandom had very little to do with them
bringing back the Romulans. In actuality the reason why they have brought
back the Roms is because the writers were so incompetent that the Ferengi,
who were supposed to be so dangerous as to have forced the Klingons and the
Feds to ally, came across as the Keystone Kops of outer space. Since the
Ferengi would never be believed as such a major threat they felt it was
necessary to bring in another species and this required an alliance with
yet another alien race from ST:TOS, the Romulans. Whether or not the new
aliens will be the parasites from "Conspiracy" remains to be seen.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 00:20:18 GMT
From: tnagreen@trillium.waterloo.edu (Lance Arthur Sibley)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Episode List

Here is the complete list (all spelling corrected :-) :

Encounter at Farpoint 
The Naked Now
Code of Honour
The Last Outpost      
Where No One Has Gone Before  
Lonely Among Us
Justice
The Battle      
Hide and Q
Haven
The Big Goodbye
Datalore
Angel One
11001001
Too Short A Season
When the Bough Breaks
Home Soil
Coming of Age
Heart of Glory
The Arsenal of Freedom
Symbiosis
Skin of Evil
We'll Always Have Paris
Conspiracy
The Neutral Zone

There you go. All in order, no gaps.

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 05:49:09 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Data vs. Lore

I just saw the Lore episode for the first time, and have an opinion!

I find the sequence of production reasonable: Lore then Data.  The
professor probably had what I view as a common AI problem: The guy was
trying for human intelligence.  I personally don't see a lot of reason for
developing that - there is plenty around already, and what we need is
something else.  Once Lore was produced, he figured out the same thing,
thence Data.  Lore, with the "human" AI, reasonably enough couldn't face
that and concocted the "I'm better!" story, just like a person would.
Unfortunately, while the Vulcans figured out the (lack?)  of desirability
of "human" intelligence, Data (working alone) has not and wastes his time
trying to become human (no shortage of humans!) instead of attempting to
maximize himself for what he is.  Too bad.....

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 00:41:28 GMT
From: mmikula@polyslo.uucp
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

stewart@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV writes:
>Now we're left with the doctor, who shows remarkably little stability and
>ingenuity for one who has risen to her professional heights, and the
>counsellor who is reduced to feeling something or continually questioning
>everyone's emotional health.  Were I her superior I'd reassign her to a
>place where she couldn't do much harm.  I wish they'd stabilize and flesh
>out the doctor (and do something about the stupid "relationship" with the
>captain) and give the Betazoid something to do other than be emotional.
>(When I first heard them call her councellor, I thought they meant legal
>an thought what a good idea it was to have someone versed in law on a
>first contact/exploratory vehicle.)

Good point on the doctor, I assume she must be a very skilled medic. As for
the counselor, They have been developing here character very nicley in the
last month or so; A lot less "oh..I feel pain..."  and more of a role as a
psyciatrist(sp). She has had some very good line lately.
 
>Something else I wouldn't mind, is some episodes where exploration

What I'd like to see is a little more creativity in the scripts. Most of
the episodes are the same old plots in a new package.  But it is still by
far the best SF show to come along in a while.

Mitchell B. Mikula 
 mmikula@polyslo
...{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!mmikula 
...!voder!ucbvax!polyslo!mmikula 

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 16:05:06 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Ripping Apart "Something is Out There"

>russell@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry) 
>>Of course, I'm not sure why you think there was a stun setting.  None of
>>the people hit in the earlier scene recovered as far as we know.
>
>Didn't they show the cop and the other guy reacting groggily?  Or was I
>just imaging things?  I got the impression they were only stunned.

What I saw was people pulling the cop out of the glass window, but the guy
in the car (on the horn), and the guy driving the tow truck didn't seem to
move.  I think that helpful bystanders were pulling the copy from the
accident scene, but because he still had his mirror glasses on, I couldn't
tell if his eyes were open or not.

By the way, for those who are going to require me to find anything "good"
about this show, how about the scene with the little sports car completely
off the ground because the tow truck driver hadn't stopped lifting it?  Can
a tow truck actually do this?  Something about torque and respective
weights of the car and truck is bouncing around in my head.

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 88 19:29:11 GMT
From: leeds@cfa250.harvard.edu (Paul Martenis)
Subject: War of the Worlds TV series *Spoilers*

   I just received today (from a friend in publishing) a publicity package
for a new "War of the Worlds" TV series being put out by Paramount.  As
I've seen nothing about it on the net, I just thought I'd quote some
snippets (_sans_ permission, natch).

   "WAR OF THE WORLDS brings H.G. Wells' classic tale into the 1980's as a
science-fiction adventure series, taking place 35 years after the
award-winning film that inflamed the public's fever for the science-fiction
genre. ...the program will premiere with a two-hour TV-movie, followed by
24 hour-long episodes.
   "The executive producer is Sam Strangis,... oversaw production of
"Mission: Impossible," "Mannix" and the original "Star Trek" series....
Greg Strangis [any relation?], ... whose credits include "Happy Days,"
"Eight is Enough" and "Falcon Crest" [just the man we want for a science
fiction adventure series]....
   "...Frank Kelly [senior v.p., says:] "Our own success this year with
'Star Trek: The Next Generation' and 'Friday the 13th: The Series' only
increases our commitment to this type of quality programming.  'War of the
Worlds' is an ideal companion piece to these two extraordinary programs." "

   That's the boring publicity stuff.  Now to the important part:

   "It is 1988 and the war is about to be staged again.....on earth.  The
"aliens", released from their state of suspended animation caused by the
earth's bacteria [apparently they didn't _die_ in the movie, they were just
asleep.  I've been told that the bodies were put in drums and tossed next
to some nuclear waste, with predictable results.  Doesn't anybody in these
movies know anything about science [fiction]?] are once again uniting.
Their mission: to take over Earth [what's new?], destroy all current
inhabitants, and transport their own race from their dying planet Kor-'Tax.

   "The aliens, always travelling in groups of three, have discovered their
lifeline on planet Earth: nuclear radiation.  Radiation is used as the
aliens' protective blanket, a shield against the Earth's germs, viruses and
bacteria to which they are so vulnerable.  Radiation destroys these viruses
that surround the aliens on planet Earth.  Radiation can also destroy their
greatest enemy: man [pretty nasty, we humans are]."

   There's more about how they can take over human bodies, and how the
government has set up a special team led by one Dr. Blackwood to fight the
bad guys, but I really should get some work done.  If this generates some
interest I'll post more next week.

Paul L. Martenis
Cambridge, MA

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 88 17:44:52 GMT
From: eric@hpcilzb.hp.com (Eric Novikoff)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds TV series *Spoilers*

Yechhhh!!!! Not again!  Why can't hollywood try bringing some DECENT stuff
to the screen?  All those special effects wasted on stories that are
nothing but visual garbage.  How about something cognitive, like David Brin
(Startide Rising!!!!!) or Michael Kube-McDowell?

BTW, is there anyone out there with good suggestions on books to make into
TV series?

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 88 21:01:29 GMT
From: hauck@faline.bellcore.com (Scott Hauck)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds TV series *Spoilers*

Sounds a lot like "V", doesn't it?  Also, when is someone going to come up
with a better way to solve dead-ends in sequels than just letting nuclear
radiation take care of everything?  Sorry, this sounds like a flame, but I
get annoyed when people put out Science Fiction on T.V.  that (at least to
me) seems like an obvious bomb, and then complain about how no-one wants to
see S.F. on T.V.

Scott Hauck

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 16:51:19 GMT
From: lasibley@lion.waterloo.edu (Lance Arthur Sibley)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds TV series *Spoilers*

leeds@cfa250.harvard.edu (Paul Martenis) writes:
>   "The executive producer is Sam Strangis,... oversaw production of
>"Mission: Impossible," "Mannix" and the original "Star Trek" series....
>Greg Strangis [any relation?], ... whose credits include "Happy Days,"
>"Eight is Enough" and "Falcon Crest" [just the man we want for a science
>fiction adventure series]....

[...publicity stuff deleted...]

I believe Greg Strangis is a producer (possibly a script consultant) on
"Star Trek: The Next Generation". He's certainly not inexperienced in
science fiction. Probably, Paramount wants a younger viewing audience for
this show, so they're referring to shows that today's teenagers used to
watch when they were younger. They don't mention TNG because it's geared
toward an older audience. (Note: This is opinion only, I don't work for
Paramount, although if they want another writer/actor, I'll be happy to
sign a contract... :-) )

Another tidbit...the series will be filming in the Toronto area, from what
I understand. A friend of mine may be doing makeup for the show.

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 88 16:35:55 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds TV series *Spoilers*

eric@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Eric Novikoff) writes:
>BTW, is there anyone out there with good suggestions on books to make into
>TV series?

Yes, "War of the worlds". The real original story by H.G. Wells, not the
Hollywood pyrotechnics story.

(That originally read special effects instead of pyrotechnics, but anyone
can produce explosions. It would take a real special effects wizard to
produce scenes of the Martian tripods walking through the red weeds
covering the countryside.)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 22:28:02 GMT
From: mcvey@sal18.usc.edu (Stephanie Salsbury Mc Vey)
Subject: name that movie

I am looking for the title of a movie I saw on TV a long long time ago, it
was in black and white.

It was a guy with a glass (?) hand with removable fingers. He was alone
with a woman in a city populated by robots. He was after a few robots that
had other fingers that fitted his hand . He knocked them down, plugged in
the fingers and little by little the fingers (which were in fact like data
banks) unfolded the story of humanity (and where it went ...)

That movie impressed me a lot (I was a kid !!!!) ... so please tell me the
title . (has it been printed ? if yes , then who is the author ? )

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 15:47:33 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: It wasn't a movie, exactly (was: name that movie)

mcvey@sal18.usc.edu (Stephanie Salsbury Mc Vey) writes:
>I am looking for the title of a movie I saw on TV a long long time ago, it
>was in black and white.
Well, it wasn't a movie.  It was "Demon with a Glass Hand," one of the two
or three best OUTER LIMITS episodes.  Harlan Ellison wrote it.  Actually,
it's kind of like his infamous STREK episode -- they didn't do it the way
he wrote it.  If you want to know what he actually wrote, check out a
"Graphic Novel" from DC Comics called (cleverly enough) DEMON WITH A GLASS
HAND.

Some minor inaccuracies...

>It was a guy with a glass (?) hand with removable fingers. He was alone
>with a woman in a city populated by robots. He was after a few robots that
>had other fingers that fitted his hand .

They weren't robots; they were aliens.  He's used those same aliens in
other stories, incidentally, many of which are included in *another* GN
called NIGHT AND THE ENEMY.  But without the time mirror and the
medallions.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 88 05:34:28 GMT
From: Sidewinder@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: name that movie

   If I am not mistaken, the movie in question was not a movie
at all...  but an episode (or two) of  'The Outer Limits'.

   It starred Robert Culp, as the man with the glass hand.

   Also, Harlan Ellison had a hand (no pun intended) in the show.
Either as author, or as a consultant of sorts for the TV show
in general.

   It had to do with Time Travel, and with Robert Culp being a robot
from the Future, if memory serves.

As for the title... I'm not really clear on that.  The words 'Demon with a
Glass Hand' comes to mind, but I'd have to check it out to be certain.
   I agree that it was one of the better installments in this Series.  If I
hear anything further on it, I will post it.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 19:09:59 GMT
From: ugwiles@sunybcs.uucp (Dale Wiles)
Subject: Re: name that movie

>I am looking for the title of a movie I saw on TV a long long time ago, it
>was in black and white.
>It was a guy with a glass (?) hand with removable fingers. He was alone
>with a woman in a city populated by robots. He was after a few robots that
>had other fingers that fitted his hand.

  Here's some fuzzy (and misspelled) recolections:

  I don't know if this counts, but one of the Twilight Zones was called
"The Glass Hand". It starred Robert Culp (maybe..) as the robot. If it's
the same one your talking about we share the same impression. I loved it.
However I remember the plot a little differently, so it may be a different
story.

What I remember...

  It starts out with Robert Culp in a department store, with some bad guys
out to get him. He talkes to his hand (glass) which is missing some
fingers. He doesn't know why he's there, or why the people are after him.
He meets a woman who helps him out. As the story unfolds, we find out the
bad guys are aliens who have taken over the earth in the future, and are
after Robert Culp who escaped from the future into the past through a time
mirror (It looked like a mirror to me!) When the aliens land on earth
(future) all the people are gone, and they all start dieing from a plague.
Robert kills off the time travelers, and breaks the mirror and finds the
rest of his fingers. The woman then tells him she loves him. (But he
doesn't love her, but she says she's use to that.) When he plugs in his
last finger we find out the rest of the story. (I sound like Paul Harvey)

Spoiler....

  Robert isn't a man at all. He's a robot that can last for millennia.  All
of the people of earth, when they realize that they are about to be taken
over, have themselves broken down into binary data, and are stored in his
memory banks. Then they released a plague to kill off the enemy leaving the
earth far in the future safe again.
  His job is to simply wait...

(This spoiler dosn't do justice to the show!)

Dale Wiles

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 5 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 217

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Dick & Gerrold (2 msgs) & Martin (4 msgs) &
                    Book Request & Answers (5 msgs) & Some Reviews

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 00:20:07 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: PKD collector's update

Not long ago I reported that Philip K. Dick's WE CAN BUILD YOU was going to
be published in hardcover in the U.K., leaving THE GANYMEDE TAKEOVER as the
only Dick novel without any kind of hardcover edition.  Well, WE CAN BUILD
is said to be out now, and my spies tell me that THE GANYMEDE TAKEOVER will
have a U.K. hardcover edition at the end of the year.

Frank Hollander
Internet, CSNET: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu
BITNET: fth6j@virginia
UUCP: mcnc!virginia!uvacs!fth6j

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 19:33:12 GMT
From: macleod@drivax.uucp (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: A Rage for Revenge

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>The good news is that David Gerrold has finally written the third novel in
>his Chtorr trilogy and we should be seeing it next year.  The bad news is
>that his new publisher insisted on having an entire trilogy to sell, not
>just book three, so Gerrold has 'significantly' expanded the first two
>books so as to pressure readers into buying the revised versions.

I was put off of Gerrold by his Star Trek connections, but I read the first
two _Chtorr_ books with great interest.  They are not well-written after
the fashion of a LeGuin or Silverberg book, but Gerrold really can
dramatize ideas, and the two books are clearly a homage to Heinlein's
_Starship Troopers_.  In his tribute to RAH in _LOCUS_, Gerrold mentioned
that RAH enjoyed the books and nagged him about completing the third.

If you like hard-SF stories which really look closely at human nature -
like some of RAH's best books - or you like stories about good guys (us)
and bad guys (nasty worms), don't miss this series.

Michael Sloan MacLeod
amdahl!drivax!macleod

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 21:30:40 GMT
From: mears@hpindda.hp.com (David B. Mears)
Subject: Re: HARLIE query

> I got the Locus issue last night at home, and here's a few quotes from
> the review of Harlie 2.0.  They are copyrighted by Carolyn Cushman, the
> reviewer:
>
>    The more significant upgrades are demonstrated best by the change in
>    HARLIE's acronym.  In the original, HARLIE was a Human Analogue
>    Replication, Lethetic Intelligence Engine.  Lethesis, according to
>    Gerrold, is the study of language-created paradigms;...

My old paperback copy claims that HARLIE stands for ``Human Analog Robot;
Life Input Equivalents.''  I haven't seen the 2.0 version to know what the
new claim is, since the portion of the Locus article reproduced here didn't
mention the new.  What gives?  (I also don't remember the drug use
mentioned, but then it's been awhile since I read the book.)

David B. Mears
Hewlett-Packard
Cupertino CA
{hplabs, ihnp4!hpfcla}!hpda!mears

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 00:26:58 GMT
From: lmann@jjmhome.uucp (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin

howard@utastro.UUCP writes:
>> Martin's short stories are orders of magnitude better than his novels.
> I don't think Martin has written a story that's orders of magnitude
> better than ARMAGEDDON RAG, for instance. I don't think anybody else has,
> either.  Would that Norman Spinrad had but read AR carefully before he
> went out and committed LITTLE HEROES. Ah, well, it's differences of
> opinion that make Hugo races.

I liked _Armageddon Rag_.  It's one of my favorite modern fantasy novels.
But I think "A Song for Lya," which Martin published in 1974, was one of
the best works of short fiction in the last decade.  While it's
stylistically simple, the themes are fairly complicated.

In general, Martin's short fiction is stronger than his long fiction.

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann 
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 23:19:35 GMT
From: larrabee@decwrl.dec.com (Tracy Larrabee)
Subject: I hated Wild Cards I, should I try II, III, or IV?

I have enjoyed George R. R. Martin before, and I loved the X-Men when I was
younger, so I read Wild Cards I.  I hated it.  I hated it a lot.

Not only was most of the writing awful (I admit that some of it was awful
on purpose), but it was the most reliably sexist collection of stories
(written past 1970) that I have ever run in to. (Next to Wild Cards, The
X-Men comics look like feminist tracts.)

If you like that kind of thing, fine--I am happy for you to read it (and me
not to read it), but I want to know if I should try reading any of the
stories in the other books. Is there anyone out there who has read all four
books, hated the first, and didn't hate any of the others?  I realize this
is unlikely, but who knows?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 88 22:01:13 GMT
From: jyamato@cory.berkeley.edu (YAMATO JON AYAO)
Subject: Re: I hated Wild Cards I, should I try II, III, or IV?

larrabee@decwrl.UUCP (Tracy Larrabee) writes:
>If you like that kind of thing, fine--I am happy for you to read it (and
>me not to read it), but I want to know if I should try reading any of the
>stories in the other books. Is there anyone out there who has read all
>four books, hated the first, and didn't hate any of the others?  I realize
>this is unlikely, but who knows?

Liked some of the first one, disliked #2, really, really hated #3.  I
wouldn't touch any further books in the series with a 10 foot pole.

I will admit that I admired the technical accomplishment which made #3 a
novel, rather than a series of linked stories.  However, that meant that
the writers whose work I couldn't stand infected the whole book, not just
part of it.  Ok, that's a flat assertation, let me back it.  I disliked the
later books because they were laden with cheap sexual innuendo put in only
for yucks (like the ghost-girl rematerializing in her underwear in the
men's locker room), replaced all the characters in whom I was interested
with cardboard cutouts, and gave up on the fairly interesting moral issues
of, say, "Golden Boy" in favor of cheap happy endings (book #2 is
especially bad this way).

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 88 18:36:54 GMT
From: erict@flatline.uucp (j eric townsend)
Subject: Re: I hated Wild Cards I, should I try II, III, or IV?

larrabee@decwrl.dec.com (Tracy Larrabee) writes:
> I have enjoyed George R. R. Martin before, and I loved the X-Men when I
> was younger, so I read Wild Cards I.  I hated it.  I hated it a lot.  Not
> only was most of the writing awful (I admit that some of it was awful on
> purpose), but it was the most reliably sexist collection of stories
> (written past 1970) that I have ever run in to. (Next to Wild Cards, The
> X-Men comics look like feminist tracts.)

This is really odd.  My SO, a died-in-the-wool card carrying feminist,
didn't mention anything about the novels being sexist.  She enjoyed the
first three immensely and has been recommending them to her friends.
Personally, I noticed no more sexism than in *any* popculture fiction.

I've read 3.5 of them (half-way through IV).  I was ok, II was better, III
was really good, and IV I haven't decided about yet.

Writing?  I usually judge a book on two different levels: plot and idea,
writing and literary technique.  Exampel: Border{lands,town} is is probably
one of the *worst* written pairs of books in existence.  The *idea*,
however, I liked: the late 80s and "elfland" bumping into each other, with
a interference zone between the two.

I didn't expect literary wonders from the Wildcards series, just as I
didn't expect spinechilling terror from _The Devils of Loudon_ (Huxley).

Wildcards makes no literary claims -- it's just an attempt at a
multi-author fiction about "superheros".  Take it on it's own merits.

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Tx 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 21:16:21 GMT
From: stan@sdba.uucp (Stan Brown)
Subject: Name That Book

I would appreciate the net's help in locating a book that I remember
fondly.  I would like a friend of mine to read it and can't remember the
title.

I think it was by Andre Norton, but I'm not sure.  Anyway the plot is that
in the dying days of a great galactic empire a worn out old Patrol ship
makes it's last landing on a wobegone old world far out in a remote
galactic arm.  As the crew explores the planet they eventually find out
that it is Terra the by now mythical home of mankind.  It includes a scene
where they find the Hall Of Departure from which the early galactic
explorers went forth.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Stan Brown
S. D. Brown & Associates
404-292-9497
{uunet|gatech}!sdba!stan

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 88 23:01:46 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Book search (HELP - Please)

ferman@drcvax.arpa writes:
>Today's book quest, should you choose to accept it, is as follows:
>Scenerio - (Probable SPOILER) In the near (?) future, someone finds a
>panoramic view on the MOON, he knows he has seen this before, and after
>some time, remembers it as an exact duplicate of the painting done by
>Leonardo DeVinci (?). Please help me locate this story. Thank you.

It's a short story or novella by Poul Anderson, called "The Light".  I'm
not positive about the title, but I am about the author.  I think it's in
the collection "The Book of Poul Anderson".

Mike Van Pelt
vanpelt%unisv@ubvax.ub.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 03:36:00 GMT
From: meadow@frog.uucp (Margery Meadow)
Subject: Re: Book search (HELP - Please)

ferman@drcvax.arpa writes:
>panoramic view on the MOON, he knows he has seen this before...
>[SPOILER ELIMINATED].... Please help me locate this story.

It's probably the short story "The Virgin of the Rocks" by Poul Anderson,
which I read in the mid-60's.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 22:13:30 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: Name That Book

stan@sdba.UUCP (Stan Brown) writes:
>I think it was by Andre Norton, but I'm not sure.  Anyway the plot is that
>in the dying days of a great galactic empire a worn out old Patrol ship
>makes it's last landing on a wobegone old world far out in a remote
>galctic arm.  As the crew explores the planet they eventually find out
>that it is Terra the by now mythical home of mankind.  It includes a scene
>where they find the Hall Of Departure from which the early galactic
>explorers went forth.

You're right; the title, if I recall correctly, was _Star_Ranger_.  I
believe it may have been her first novel, and set much of the tone for her
subsequent works, including the issue of species-ism.  The central
character was a human, but many of the other good guys were bemmies.  (The
abbreviation BEM was popular when the book was written.)

The heavy was human, and hated all other species in the universe.

The building in question was the Hall of Leave-Taking, and was the original
from which the design of the (main government building?) of the Empire had
been copied.  The Empire building was apparently almost a carbon copy,
since one of the stranded rangers at first mistakes the Hall for the
government building and says the predictable "It can't be" or something
like that.

The story wasn't anything to win the Pulitzer, but I recall it as a good,
reasonably-written SF story which John Campbell might have bought.  Readers
who have been turned off by Ms. Norton's later Luddite writings won't have
any problems with this one.

I think I've seen the book in paperback within the past few years, but I
haven't any idea where.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 22:08:17 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: Name That Book

>I think it was by Andre Norton, but I'm not sure.  Anyway the plot is that
>in the dying days of a great galactic empire a worn out old Patrol ship
>makes it's last landing on a wobegone old world far out in a remote
>galactic arm.  As the crew explores the planet they eventually find out
>that it is Terra the by now mythical home of mankind.  It includes a scene
>where they find the Hall Of Departure from which the early galactic
>explorers went forth.

It's called _The_Last_Planet_, and is indeed by Andre Norton. Every now and
then I go back and reread some of her older stuff (_Storm_Over_Warlock_,
_Galactic_Derelict_, _The_Beast_Master_, _Catseye_, and so on), and am
usually pleasantly surprised by how well they've held up since my high
school days (a _long_ time ago). If I remember correctly, aren't there also
some reptilian aliens (very much also the Good Guys) along on the Patrol
ship? (have to reread that one sometime, too...)

Don Coolidge

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 22:27:27 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Name That Book

dfc@hpindda.HP.COM (Don Coolidge) writes:
> It's called _The_Last_Planet_, and is indeed by Andre Norton. Every now

That may be a renamed reprinting.  It was originally _Star_Rangers_.

> If I remember correctly, aren't there also some reptilian aliens
> (very much also the Good Guys) along on the Patrol ship?

Yep.  The Zacathans, if I remember rightly.  (Amazing what lies around
among the cobwebs between my ears.)  Nice guys, with psi abilities that
they didn't talk about too much (but came in handy near the end).

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 05:44:48 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: recently read

VOYAGE TO THE CITY OF THE DEAD, by Alan Dean Foster

Some people might accuse Foster of being a hack writer, and sometimes I
would have to agree. When Foster takes his time, though, he is capable of
creating some of the most interesting worlds I have ever read about and
would love to visit. I remember the forests of MIDWORLD, the ice fields of
ICERIGGER, and the oceans of CACHALOT long after the rest of the book is
forgotten. In VOYAGE TO THE CITY OF THE DEAD, Foster has not only created
another of his fascinating worlds, but also created some interesting
characters to live in it. The planet Horseye, or Tslamaina to the natives,
was once a ball of ice until an enormous meteor made a crater in its
surface. Now several rivers flow down cracks in the surface to flow into an
immense ocean at the bottom of the crater. Three races live along the
river: the Na on the frozen planet surface, the Mai at the muggy ocean, and
the Tsla at altitudes in between. VOYAGE is the story of two Humanx
Commonwealth scientists, Etienne Redowl, a geologist, and Lyra Redowl, a
sociologist, on a journey to the source of the major river. This book won't
ever win any awards, but it is an exciting read, and the planet and its
peoples are hard to forget. This is one of Foster's best.

THE MAGICIANS OF CAPRONA, by Diana Wynne Jones

Someone a while back mentioned that this year's WorldCon committee was
considering giving a Hugo for juveniles. Reading a book like MAGICIANS
makes me hope they do. In this book, the two foremost families of Magicians
in a town noted for its magic, in an Italy which parallels our Italy of a
few hundred years ago, have been feuding since as long as both families can
remember. But there is a problem now. Their spells are not working as they
should. Now both families will have to put all their members to work to
combat whatever evil is causing this to happen. Everyone must help, except
for Tonino, whose only magical power is his ability to understand cats.
Jones weaves a clever, funny, skillful tale, with realistic characters, an
exciting conclusion, and a minimum of violence.

In fact, that seems to be a characteristic of juvenile fiction. Since sex
and violence are taboo in most children's books, the writers are forced
into using plot, characterization, and just plain good storytelling. Also,
since children's literature is for...well...children, fantasy and science
fiction has been more easily accepted there. Each year books such as the
Earthsea Trilogy, Cooper's Dark is Rising series, Lloyd Alexander's Taran
books, Robin McKinley's fantasies, the Narnia books, Jane Yolen's books,
Andre Norton's books, Alexander Key's Witch Mountain and other fantasies,
and so many more win Newberry and Caldecott awards as the best new
children's books for that year (not all of the books I just mentioned won
these awards, but most of them did), yet receive no recognition by the sf
community because they aren't being read. (OK, so you've read some of the
books I've mentioned, but all of them? How about naming some juveniles from
this year that you've read.) Each year many new excellent sf and fantasy
children's books are written that are being ignored and shouldn't be. OK,
end of soapbox. Sorry.

THE MAGICIANS OF CAPRONA may also never win any awards, but is exciting,
and funny, and hard to put down. You'll wish you had a cat like Benito.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 5 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 218

Today's Topics:

	 Films - Dune (6 msgs) & Who Framed Roger Rabbit (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 88 00:14:43 GMT
From: gtchen@tybalt.caltech.edu (George T. Chen)
Subject: Re: 'Dune' on TV

I don't have a vcr so I can't verify this for myself but I seem to remember
in the introduction that Irulan said: Know now that it is the year
10,192....  Later on in the re-released version, the narrator states that
"And so House Atredies took control of Arrakis in the year 10,191..."  Was
this a boo boo?  I forget the dates mentioned in the original book.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 04:55:45 GMT
From: rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: DUNE

>Actually, I read somewhere that the first attempt to create a screenplay
>out of DUNE resulted in a script that would have been 6 to 8 hours long,
>but that Herbert thought was an acurate adaptation of his book.  Maybe if
>someone could dig up this original, it could be made into the trilogy you
>suggest.

There's a book out, "The Making of Dune" or somesuch name like that.  In
it, Frank Herbert discusses _many_ of the screenplays that were written.
There have been a lot of them, and for the most part, the reason the films
were never produced before was because they were impossible to film, could
not obtain a budget to produce what would even to this day be the most
expensive film ever made, or was just too long.

The script rights were also tied up in an estate settlment for many years.

As I recall, the script that most faithfully represented the book would
have consumed 21 hours of film, and some extraordinary amount of cash.

There was a 6-8 hour version, I believe that Herbert found acceptable, but
it had some problems associated with it.  There were also some other
scripts submitted that took some liberties that Herbert felt he would have
been lynched over, if he even considered them.  Such as the script that
included an incestual relationship between Paul and his mother.

Re: weirding modules and the like, Frank Herbert himself liked it.  He was
also on the set for much of the filming making recommendations, and was
involved in most or all of the details.  Whether I like the representations
or not, I still have to concede that if the author of the original work
found the representation acceptable (or correct), then I must also at least
respect it no matter what my personal thoughts are on it (though I may
speak it anyways, but I can't always justify saying that it's wrong.  The
source was there...)

Even so, a great deal could have been done with the film or films if they
went multiple episodes.  However, how many people really feel that the
audience it would attract for more than one film would be large enough to
justify more than one film?  The studios clearly did not feel that there
was life past one film, and probably rightly so.  Even most of the films
produced today that go into multiple episodes or sequels were never even
intended to, but were suprisingly successful.  Most attempts at multiple
episodes fail, and Dune is strange enough that the crowd it attracts for
film #1 could turn several of them off for film #2...  Other movies like
the Star Trek films rely on its previous history and it's large fanatical
following.  Without this established "commercial" base, it would fail.
Dune has a large following, but large enough to have coerced and guaranteed
the success of multiple films?

Robert J. Granvin
National Information Systems, Inc.
rjg@sialis.mn.org
...{{amdahl,hpda}!bungia,rosevax}!sialis!rjg

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 88 17:23:15 GMT
From: m10ux!rgr@moss.att.com (Duke Robillard)
Subject: Dune

elk@cblpn.ATT.COM (55214-Edwin King) writes:
>I must agree that what they did to DUNE to make it a movie was positively
>CRIMINAL....  the portrayal of Ali,...

    I kind of liked her.  I thought they projected her creepy "inhumanity"
very well.  But yes, the movie sucked.

>What I think they should have done, would be to split the book into a
>trilogy of films,

    I've always been an advocate of handling this the way that British TV
does--an hour a week until you're done.  I think it would work okay; after
all, people watch mini-series, don't they?

Duke Robillard
AT&T Bell Labs
Murray Hill, NJ
m10ux!rgr@att.UUCP                 
{backbone!}att!m10ux!rgr

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 88 17:58:16 GMT
From: demoedf@iitmax.iit.edu (ed federmeyer)
Subject: Dune Stuff

First.... The extra footage in the television presentation of Dune did
wonders for it!  And the new narrator was magnitudes better than Irulan!!!

However, I feel that the bigest mistake they made was that they were too
gross (Just look at the Baron Harkonnen- YECH!) and made things just too
outlandish.  (Check out the door to the Guild Highliner... Who would put a
fancy golden carved door on a spaceship!  Ha!)  I really wish they had
chosen me to direct the movie... (No, Im not a movie director... It's just
that I think my view of the book would have adapted well to the big screen,
but don't we all have our own visions...)

Second, I can't quite figure out what all the talk of The Golden Path is
about in God Emperor of Dune.  From what I gather...  It seem that Leto II
has lulled the Empire to sleep with stagnation, and he intends to shock
them into a higher awarness when he dies, and things change (The sleeper
must awaken) Is this what The Golden Path is refering to?  Also, what are
the horrible alternatives?  And why does Paul Atreides NOT choose to follow
The Golden Path??

If there are any Dune series fans out there that can explain these ideas
from God Emperor of Dune more clearly, I would appreciate it!

Ed Federmeyer

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 88 01:45:52 GMT
From: UN8@psuvm.bitnet
Subject: Re: Dune

I have a theory that people who are disappointed by the movie 'Dune' are
people who tend to read detailed descriptions, absorbing every word.  When
I read the 'Dune' books, I read for the plot and philosophy thus any
picture of people, places and things is fuzzy. Therefore I wasn't too
disappointed with the movie.  Any comments? 

Tracy A. Schoolcraft

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 11:26:18 GMT
From: elk@cblpn.att.com (Edwin King)
Subject: Re: Dune

UN8@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>I have a theory that people who are disappointed by the movie 'Dune' are
>people who tend to read detailed descriptions, absorbing every word.  When
>I read the 'Dune' books, I read for the plot and philosophy thus any
>picture of people, places and things is fuzzy. Therefore I wasn't too
>disappointed with the movie.  Any comments?

  At least in my own case, I'm going to have to disagree with you.  Yes, I
tend to read things in pretty fine detail.  And, yes, I thought the movie
should have been a capital offense.  But, I LIKED the effects.  I LIKED the
way things looked and were built.  The parts I object to are the
philosophical things (The weirding modules, the campy Freman, **RAIN**).

Ed King
elk@cblpn.ATT.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 14:30:47 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Review, no spoilers)

   Well, I went through the net this morning and there wasn't anything
about this movie, so I guess I'll be the first of (hopefully) many to write
in and say:

   GO SEE "WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT" !!!!!

   Everything you've heard is true.  Spielberg and Zemeckis, along with
Industrial Light and Magic, have really outdone themselves.  It was
impossible for me to keep my mouth shut during this movie; when I wasn't
laughing, my jaw was on the floor gaping at the special effects.  The
acting is great, not just on its own merits, but because the actors have
done a superb job of interacting with the 'Toons.'  Add to that the 3-d
effect provided by IL&M, and a script that could probably stand by itself,
and you have the must-see movie of the summer, possibly of the year.
   In case anyone's interested, a couple ratings I've seen:
   USA Today : ****
   Philadelphia Inquirer : ****

Enough talk.  Go see it!!

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 88 07:36:24 GMT
From: msb@sq.uucp (Mark Brader)
Subject: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

It's been quite some time since I've laughed quite so much at a movie as I
did last night at WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT.  

The names behind this one include Disney Studios, Spielberg, Lucasfilm, and
Robert Zemeckis.  The on-screen stars are Bob Hoskins, now speaking
American English, and Christopher Lloyd.  Both perform magnificently--
especially when you consider that they were often acting to an empty space.
According to Newsweek, Kathleen Turner plays the speaking voice of Jessica
(and Amy Irving the singing voice); for some reason this part is not
credited.  Many famous animated characters appear, with more famous names
appearing behind their voices.

The film is a technical tour de force as well.  I can well believe that it
cost $45 million to make.  Avoid spoilers; read no more; this one's a
winner.  Log off now and go and see it.

Mark Brader
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto
utzoo!sq!msb
msb@sq.com

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 88 23:45:19 GMT
From: roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Review, no spoilers)

   Actually, I was EXTREMELY disappointed in ROGER RABBIT.  Long on
gimmicks and gee whizisms and short on wit and inventiveness.  A LOT of the
sequences dragged on and on, too many of the punchlines were obvious from
the first second of the sequence and many of the jokes and puns were so old
that I was afraid they'd disintegrate on screen (this is not to mention the
use of some objectionable ethnic stereotypes).

   It also didn't help that Bob Hoskins did not fit his role well.  He
lacked the manic energy a Danny DeVito could have lent to this part.

   Wait until the video comes out.  Then you can check for all the in-jokes
and cameo appearances by obscure animated characters.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 16:07:39 GMT
From: hauck@faline.bellcore.com (Scott Hauck)
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Very Minor *spoilers*)

Well, it's time for the First question about Roger Rabbit.  I noticed in
the movie that there were two "battles" between Warner Bros. and Walt
Disney cartoons.  The first, which has been mentioned in a lot of places,
is the piano duel between Daffy and Donald.  The second is at the end of
the film when Porky does his famous close The..The..The..The..That's All
Folks, and then Tinkerbell zaps him with her wand, the standard Walt Disney
close.  Did anyone see any others?

Scott Hauck
hauck@faline.bellcore.com
hauck@postgres.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 17:57:31 GMT
From: rdr@killer.uucp (Dean Riddlebarger)
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Review, no spoilers)

roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com writes:

>   Actually, I was EXTREMELY disappointed in ROGER RABBIT.  Long on
>gimmicks and gee whizisms and short on wit and inventiveness.  A LOT of
>the sequences dragged on and on, too many of the punchlines were obvious
>from the first second of the sequence and many of the jokes and puns were
>so

But I thought that the idea was to spoof the old 40's detective stuff....

>old that I was afraid they'd disintegrate on screen (this is not to
>mention the use of some objectionable ethnic stereotypes).

Again, I think that one level of the film intended to throw ethnic and
racial bias into sharp contrast, using the animated characters as a
vehicle.  

>It also didn't help that Bob Hoskins did not fit his role well.  He lacked
>the manic energy a Danny DeVito could have lent to this part.

I rather liked Mr. Hoskins in this role.  He provided a very stable anchor
around which the animated characters could scream in their very manic
frenzy.  Danny DeVito?  I'm afraid I can't visualize that at all......

>Wait until the video comes out.  Then you can check for all the in-jokes
>and cameo appearances by obscure animated characters.

I'd say that the movie is worth at least one viewing on the large screen
[makes the animated effects look *really nice*].  Then get the video for
further review......

Dean

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 19:35:01 GMT
From: holley@sono.uucp (Greg Holley)
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Review, no spoilers)

Whether or not you found the film "short on wit and inventiveness," one of
the best things about the movie was the quality and detail and animation.
Picture the best of the old bugs bunny/disney animations.  Now spend much
much more money and time to get everything right, and do it on 70mm film.
This is NOT a film to watch on the small screen.

Greg Holley

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 15:22:04 GMT
From: barth@ihlpl.att.com (BARTH RICHARDS)
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Very Minor *spoilers*)

hauck@faline.UUCP (Scott Hauck) writes:
>Well, it's time for the First question about Roger Rabbit.  I noticed in
>the movie that there were two "battles" between Warner Bros. and Walt
>Disney cartoons.  The first, which has been mentioned in a lot of places,
>is the piano duel between Daffy and Donald.  The second is at the end of
>the film when Porky does his famous close The..The..The..The..That's All
>Folks, and then Tinkerbell zaps him with her wand, the standard Walt
>Disney close.  Did anyone see any others?

I don't remember any other "battles" per se, but there were other scenes
where a Disney "Silly Symphonies" character was paired with it's Warner
Bros.  "Merry Melodies" or "Looney Tunes" parody.  The one scene that
immediately comes to mind is Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny skydiving with
Valiant after he has fallen from the upper stories of a Toontown
skyscraper.

I know there were others, but they don't come to mind.

Barth Richards
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
!ihnp4!ihlpl!barth

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 17:24:42 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Very Minor *spoilers*)

>Well, it's time for the First question about Roger Rabbit.  I noticed in
>the movie that there were two "battles" between Warner Bros. and Walt
>Disney cartoons.

According to a story I read, Warner Bros. insisted that its toons get equal
time with the Disney toons as a condition for allowing them to appear in
>Roger Rabbit<. Specifically, Bugs Bunny had to get equal time with Mickey
Mouse and Daffy Duck had to get equal time with Donald Duck. How realistic
can you get? This provision is just like the old time star trading
provisions between the studios back when they controlled the movie
industry.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 12:57:45 GMT
From: farren@gethen.uucp (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Very Minor *spoilers*)

hauck@faline.UUCP (Scott Hauck) writes:
>I noticed in the movie that there were two "battles" between Warner Bros.
>and Walt Disney cartoons.  The first, which has been mentioned in a lot of
>places, is the piano duel between Daffy and Donald.

This is a battle?  Name any other famous smart-ass duck characters...  I
certainly didn't get any sense of a "Warner Bros. vs. Disney"
confrontation.  Daffy vs. Donald, yes.

>The second is at the end of the film when Porky does his famous close
>The..The..The..The..That's All Folks, and then Tinkerbell zaps him with
>her wand, the standard Walt Disney close.

Again, not a battle in my book, simply an acknowledgement of BOTH of the
famous endings.  And very well done, too.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 18:39:26 GMT
From: bruns@CATALINA.SW.MCC.COM (Glenn Bruns)
Subject: Re: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (Review, no spoilers)

I agree with roger_warren_tang: Roger Rabbit is a disappointment.  Most of
the rave reviews have emphasized the movie's technical qualities.  Roger
Rabbit is worth seeing for the FX, but I couldn't get interested in the
characters or the story.  I have enjoyed Bob Hoskins in the past
(especially in Mona Lisa), but I don't think his considerable acting
talents were exercised in RR.  Like roger_warren_tang, I also found many of
the gags predictable.

Perhaps the problem was that I could not suspend disbelief.  I've heard
some people say that the toon/human world became very real for them.  It
didn't for me, in part because I found the characters and story too
one-dimensional.

I also found the pace and music too frantic, even for this kind of film.
Roger's neck was stretched like a rubber band hundreds of times, it seemed.

Don't get me wrong, RR was worth seeing.  My eyes were nearly popping out
of my head during the first ten minutes.  Unfortunately, the story and
characters were essentially a vehicle for the special effects.  RR is not
the movie of the decade.

Glenn Bruns 
MCC, Software Technology Program
arpa: bruns@mcc.com    
uucp: {seismo,harvard,gatech,pyramid}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!bruns

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 5 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 219

Today's Topics:

		Books - Herbert (5 msgs) & Niven (2 msgs) &
                        Norton & Rand (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 17:10:28 GMT
From: well!pokey@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: DUNE

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) wrote:
>barth@ihlpl.ATT.COM (BARTH RICHARDS) writes:
>> Actually, I read somewhere that the first attempt to create a screenplay
>> out of DUNE resulted in a script that would have been 6 to 8 hours long,
>> but that Herbert thought was an accurate adaptation of his book.
>
>Accurate? In the book, everyone took great precautions to conserve water.
>Suits had gear in them to recycle exhaled water: and were all-enclosing,
>to prevent the loss of sweat.

Which, of course, was one of the most ludicrous technical flaws in the
book.  Herbert apparently knew nothing about human metabolism.  We produce
water as a waste product, oxydized out of the carbohydrates we eat.  If his
stilsuits really recycled > 90% of the body's excreted water, they would
pop within days.

Herbert's attempt to make an individual into a metaphor for a larger closed
ecology simply doesn't work.  Humans, like the Earth itself, are not closed
systems.

Jef Poskanzer
jef@rtsg.ee.lbl.gov
...well!pokey

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 16:51:53 GMT
From: manis@faculty.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis)
Subject: Re: Dune

I *still* think "Dune" is a wonderful book, even though I have failed to
make it through any of the other Dune books. Unfortunately, the
"theological" (or philosophical) component reads well, but makes no sense.
Having seen both David Lynch's and "Judas Booth's" treatments, I can
confidently say that I believe that they do as good a job as is possible of
translating "Dune" into visual terms. Don't blame Lynch/Booth for the fact
that it doesn't make much sense; I'm not really sure that Herbert clearly
understood what he meant by a lot of what he was writing.

(Books don't have to make sense for me to enjoy them, by the way.)

Incidentally, I read "Dune" first in serialised form in Analog, which was,
in those days, often called the "magazine with rivets", because of its
strong technological orientation. (It may still be: I haven't read it in 10
years or so.) It really didn't belong there: John Campbell liked his
mysticism to appear scientific (hence all the articles about perpetual
motion machines, astrology, and psychic amplifiers which were dressed up
with pseudo-scientific terminology).

Vincent Manis
Department of Computer Science
University of British Columbia
manis@cs.ubc.ca
manis@cs.ubc.cdn
manis@ubc.csnet
uunet!ubc-cs!manis

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 04:33:33 GMT
From: macleod@drivax.uucp (MacLeod)
Subject: Alternatives to the "Golden Path" in _Dune_

demoedf@iitmax.UUCP (Ed Federmeyer) writes:
>Second, I can't quite figure out what all the talk of The Golden Path is
>about in God Emperor of Dune.  From what I gather...  It seem that Leto II
>has lulled the Empire to sleep with stagnation, and he intends to shock
>them into a higher awarness when he dies, and things change (The sleeper
>must awaken) Is this what The Golden Path is refering to?  Also, what are
>the horrible alternatives?  And why does Paul Atreides NOT choose to
>follow The Golden Path??

There is a one or two sentence comment, in GEOD, that Leto forsaw a future
where humans were hunted by Berserker-like cyborgs and machines and
apparently were either close to extermination or actually gone.  Paul had
the good taste not to become a worm, unlike his self-righteous, egotripping
son.

The real plan was "simply" to destroy the Guild's FTL capability.  The
Atriedes saw that the whole inhabited galaxy had become a monoculture
vulnerable to memes like the Jihad.  The only way out was to crash the
whole interplanetary civilization.  Presumably Herbert had something better
up his sleeve to spring on us, but the way the latter books were going, I
have my doubts.  Personally, for book 7, which I expected to be the last, I
wanted the Paul Atreidies cells to be regrown and return him to the center
stage.

All in all, the DUNE books were a pretty incoherent work.

Michael Sloan MacLeod
amdahl!drivax!macleod

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 09:03:28 GMT
From: john@nmtsun.nmt.edu (John Shipman)
Subject: Re: Dune Stuff

demoedf@iitmax.IIT.EDU (Ed Federmeyer) writes:
> If there are any Dune series fans out there that can explain these ideas
> from God Emperor of Dune more clearly, I would appreciate it!

It seems to me that the big theme of the _Dune_ series was that Leto II
saw, and avoided, a possible end of the human race.  My opinion is based on
careful reading of the series (about three times) as well as broadcast
interviews with Herbert and some of the material in _Eye_.

The Worm, through his prescience, saw a possibility that a war would come
that would be so thorough that no humans would survive.  The reason that
The Worm suppressed all technology and generally played the ultimate,
godlike despot, was so that everyone would chafe under his rule, and THEN
when someone finally figured out how to kill him, the majority of humans
would flee in every direction.  This accomplished the fragmentation of
human culture so completely that no single war thereafter could wipe out
all the fragments.  The cost was his own death plus the suffering of
humanity under his rule for a few thousand years.  This was the Golden Path
Paul saw but couldn't face.

I'd like to put in a good word for a book few seem to like, _Dune_Messiah_.
I thought it was a logical and necessary bridge between _Dune_ and
_Children_of_Dune_.  One of Herbert's running themes is that heroes must
take a fall [ref: KPFA radio interview ca.  1980]---``Here lies a toppled
God/ His fall was not a small one/We did but build his pedestal/ A narrow
and a tall one.''  _Dune_Messiah_ is about Paul's fall.  It is also about
Alia and how her will to power ruined her, seduced by a religion that
deified her, and by the Baron Harkonnen in her genetic memory.

On the subject of the movie version, I agree with those who dislike the
``weirding modules.''  In the book the Fremen won because they were better
fighters: like the Sardaukar, they had a hard life that honed them to a
fine edge, but they beat the Sardaukar because their training started
earlier, was more complete, and had a religious (rather than a mercenary)
motivation.  When Jessica and Paul taught them some of the
body-consciousness skills of the Bene Gesserit, their skills were made even
more dangerous.

Perhaps the reason the movie substituted technology (SDI on your wrist) for
martial arts was the expense of portraying hand-to-hand combat on a large
scale.  Perhaps they felt that flashy special effects were required; a
knife in the throat just doesn't have the same pizzazz as the ball of flame
made by a weirding module.

There was one more thing about the movie I didn't like.  When Paul and
Jessica were trying to escape the worm just before they reached Sietch
Tabr, Jessica was whimpering and crying.  A Bene Gesserit of her training
would never be hysterical, unless it served some purpose.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 21:15:45 GMT
From: ron@hp-sde.sde.hp.com (Ron Suliteanu)
Subject: Re: Dune Stuff

A couple of more things on the "Golden Path" question...  

Leto II had a breeding program which was intended to make humans
"invisible" to prescience.  Siona was the first who demonstrated some of
this ability.  The point here is that after the Scattering, NO ONE would be
able to track down all of the colonies.

Second, Leto saw the human race stagnating.  Humans had lost the drive to
create and explore new limits.  He knew that this could also lead to the
ultimate demise of humankind.  So his "Golden Path" was also intended to
reignite these fundamental human drives by the very act of suppressing
them.  If one is denied something by another, all of a sudden it becomes
imperative to do that thing.

Leto II was a "God", because he chose to subjugate billions of entities
over thousands of years in order to ultimately preserve the race.  Kind of
like, "I've got good news, and I've got bad news...".

Ron Suliteanu
Palo Alto, CA

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 88 07:48:46 GMT
From: news@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (news)
Subject: The Man-Kzin Wars

   On the cover of the book there were a couple of sentences which really
turned me off: "Larry Niven's Known Space is a flame with war!" and "Now,
centuries later, the Kzinti are about to get another lesson in why it pays
to be polite to those hairless monkeys from earth." (or something very
similar).
   I always considered Niven's works to be hard-core science fiction with
intelligent story lines, but these sentences (which are supposed to get me
to buy the book) seem like an introduction to "Star Wars" or "Thunder
Cats".  Who are they (Baen Books) trying to appeal to?
   By the way, what are your opinions on the "Smoke Ring" books??  I think
that Niven has created a stunning new environment with brilliant detail,
however, nothing exciting seems to happen here.  The only interesting
character was Kendy.  Reading those books reminded me of the first Star
Trek film: lots of neat scenery but very little going on.  Comments??

Dave White

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 88 16:25:21 GMT
From: markz@ssc.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

Except for a reprint of "The Warriors", there isn't any Niven in the book.
He is franchising out a portion of the Known Space universe to other
authors.

If you want to see how Poul Anderson and Dean Ing can write a Known Space
story, read it.

My opinion is the book is worth reading for a Niven fan, but not quite up
to his standards.  I liked the Ing story "Cathouse" better than Anderson's
"Iron".

My main complaint is that I had already read two thirds of the stories
because Baen had printed "Cathouse" in "New Destinies" last winter.

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 18:35:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.uucp (Lawrence C. Smith)
Subject: Re: Name That Book

jcmorris@mbunix (Morris) writes:
>You're right; the title, if I recall correctly, was _Star_Ranger_.  

Most recently published (must be 15 years ago) as _The Last Planet_, with
an utterly irrelevant robot on the cover.

>I believe it may have been her first novel, and set much of the tone for
>her subsequent works, including the issue of species-ism.  The central
>character was a human, but many of the other good guys were bemmies.

"Bemmies" - yup!  Still a popular fighten' word in my SF RPG.  NEVER call a
kzin a bemmy!

>(The abbreviation BEM was popular when the book was written.)
>
>The heavy was human, and hated all other species in the universe.

The hero, whose name escapes me now, was from the planet Ylene and had
two-colored hair.  He was the resident esper, although Zinga (the reptile
man) was actually a more powerful esper, he had been hiding his talent for
years (bemmy+esper=torch on sight).  The aliens gave this novel a rather
"cute" flavor.  There was also a birdman and Rolth, from Falthar, a very
dim planet where the people had developed owl-like vision.  He always wore
blue goggles during the day.  He was called half-bemmy on several
occasions.  There was also a reference to the ship's engineer being a
robot, who was lost on their last planetfall.

The "Starfire" was really clunked out - years past overhaul, and in far
worse shape than the Millenium Falcon.  She crashlands on Terra (although
they don't know what planet it is until later) and cannot be repaired.

They find some survivors of a passenger liner crash camped out in an
automated city (with security robots cruising the streets - armed with
atomics no less!)

>The building in question was the Hall of Leave-Taking, and was the
>original from which the design of the (main government building?) of the
>Empire had been copied.  The Empire building was apparently almost a
>carbon copy, since one of the stranded rangers at first mistakes the Hall
>for the government building and says the predictable "It can't be" or
>something like that.

Later they use the com gear in the building to guide in another Star Patrol
vessel running from pirates.  It was carrying families of recruits from the
last intact Star Patrol base, every species you could think of.  The
implication is, civilization has collapsed COMPLETELY, and these are the
folk left to rebuild - on the revitalized Eden-like Earth (the desert the
Starfire crashed in was left over from the ecological collapse that drove
everyone off-planet, but the rest of the planet had recovered).  Of course,
the future would be better since now we had all these non-humans, too.

>The story wasn't anything to win the Pulitzer, but I recall it as a good,
>reasonably-written SF story which John Campbell might have bought.
>Readers who have been turned off by Ms. Norton's later Luddite writings
>won't have any problems with this one.

She DID go off the deep end, didn't she?  Too bad.  But, yes, The Last
Planet was pretty good space-opera-type stuff.  I still remember it fondly
though its been years.  I think I'll reread it.  *I* still have it in my
library (*chuckle*).

>I think I've seen the book in paperback within the past few years, but I
>haven't any idea where.
            
I would be surprised if it was still in print.  Try a good used-paperback
bookstore.

Larry Smith
lsmith

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 20:16:40 GMT
From: bill@proxftl.uucp (T. William Wells)
Subject: Atlas Shrugged

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
> Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" -- very odd SF with a 19'th century flavor if
> you ignore the page after page (after page after page after...) of
> polemics.

I had wondered if anyone had noticed that _Atlas_ is SF.  Though I must
agree with the complaint about the polemic, I'd say that it ranks with the
best of what has been called social science fiction (i.e.  science fiction
that explores the social consequences of ideas).

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 22:09:11 GMT
From: cv@attcan.uucp (CV)
Subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged

I thought no one else appreciated Atlas Shrugged the way I did!

Ayn Rand is a most spectacular women, for those of you out there who like
me have all her books and are just dying for something else by this
wonderful author - I recently bought a book which is volume 2 (so I guess
there is another volume) of excerpts from stories which were cut before
publication and ideas which she decided at the last minute to delete from
the pages of her books.

It is worth reading!  For example, in the Fountainhead initially there was
a love story written for the main character (I don't believe it, I can't
remember his name!!) with an unknown actress when he was struggling to get
by before he met the love of his life (again, my mind is a blank!!!).  This
is a very interesting look into the hero's personality and should be read.

If interested write to me and I will tell you the name of the book and the
publishing house.

Bye for now,

Chantal 
attcan!cv

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 88 00:53:51 GMT
From: sysop@stech.uucp (Jan Harrington)
Subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged 

bill@proxftl.UUCP (T. William Wells) says:
>vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>> Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" -- very odd SF with a 19'th century flavor
>> if you ignore the page after page (after page after page after...) of
>> polemics.
>
> I had wondered if anyone had noticed that _Atlas_ is SF.  Though I must
>agree with the complaint about the polemic, I'd say that it ranks with the
>best of what has been called social science fiction (i.e.  science fiction
>that explores the social consequences of ideas).

You know, I first read Atlas shrugged when I was 16 (a rather long time
ago, I'm afraid to admit...). It still remains one of my favorite books,
but I've never thought of it as science fiction. (It's shelved with my
non-science fiction books.) It's certainly speculative, but there is
something about it that sets it apart from other sci fi.

What do others think? It's nothing something I can identify. What exactly
makes a sci fi book? Convince me and I'll move it upstairs ...

Jan Harrington
Scholastech Telecommunications
UUCP: husc6!amcad!stech!sysop
      allegra!stech!sysop
BITNET: JHARRY@BENTLEY

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 7 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 220

Today's Topics:

	   Books - Borges (3 msgs) & Gibson & Herbert (3 msgs) &
                   Martin & Shupp & Sleator (3 msgs) & Varley &
                   Some Recommendations

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 13:53:32 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Jorge Luis Borges

Since Borges has come up, those who are not familiar with him may want to
read a few of his stories.  His writings may be quite attractive to those
who like science-fiction, and especially fantasy.  He isn't for those
looking for escapist entertainment, though, and is very deep.  His stories
deal with such topics as time-warps, mythical creatures, labyrinths, etc.
They will all give you something to think about for a long time after
reading them.  I have never encountered another writer who was like Borges.
Gene Wolfe is the closest thing readers of s-f might be familiar with, and
Wolfe acknowledges Borges' influence.  (Remember the short little stories
that Serverian read out of that old book he carried around?  Those are very
Borges-like.)

In Latin American literature, fantasy is in the mainstream rather than a
side track.  While most fantasy written for the English market seems to be
failed Tolkien clones, Latin American fantasy is much more varied and
interesting.  See for example, Enrique Anderson (El fantasma) or Julio
Cortazar (La noche boca arriba).  My reading has been confined to short
stories (I am too slow in Spanish to undertake a novel), but I have greatly
enjoyed what I have found there.  Quite a few of Borges stories are
translated into English, and should be readily available in any University
Library or bookstore.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 17:21:35 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Borges

Gordon Banks writes about Jorge Luis Borges and other Latin American
fantasy...

   If Borges is the author of _Cien anos de soledad_, as I seem to recall,
then I have read some of his works.  I actually read it as _One Hundred
Years of Solitude_, but was very impressed nevertheless.  It was intricate
to the point of being almost more work than fun to read, however, which is
why I never picked up another one.  Maybe I'm just spoiled by the American
"easy- read" sf (no flames PLEASE!  If you've read OHYoS, you know what I
mean).
   I also tried Cortazar, but the only thing of his that I enjoyed was a
short story called "Axlotl" (in _The Slaying of the Dragon_, ed.
Rottenstein or some such name).  I found his novels to be far too complex
for me (I say complex so as not to have to say "boring" :-).  I literally
could not read more than three pages of either _Hopscotch_ or _62: A Model
Kit_, though maybe they lose something in translation.  I would love to be
able to try in Spanish, but unfortunately, even four years of high-school
Spanish and a background in French isn't enough.
   Speaking of foreign authors, I noticed, as did a friend who recently
returned from a trip to France, that the French SF/Fantasy market consists
almost entirely of translations of American/English works.  Any thoughts on
this or possible explanations?

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 20:31:18 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Borges

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
>If Borges is the author of _Cien anos de soledad_, as I seem to recall,
>then I have read some of his works.  I actually read it as _One Hundred
>Years of Solitude_, but was very impressed nevertheless.  It was intricate
>to the point of being almost more work than fun to read, however, which is
>why I never picked up another one.

_Cien anos de soledad_ is by Nobel prize winner Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and
I agree that it (the English translation, of course) was work to read.  (It
would have been easier if there had been as many names as there were
characters, but E-Z-readin' was obviously not on Marquez's list of
priorities :-)

Borges never got the Nobel (he died recently so he never will), apparently
because of his politics (I don't know the details, but I've heard that he
was insufficiently vocal on some subject or other.)  His works are shorter
than Marquez's novels, and he has enough imagination to think of a
different name for each character :-)

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 22:12:47 GMT
From: meynard@iros9.iro.umontreal.ca (Meynard Yves)
Subject: Re: _Mona Lisa Overdrive_

cscbrkac@unmc.UUCP (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Scuttlebutt (and that may be all it is -- scuttlebutt) on one of the local
>BBSes here says that the difference in the UK and US release dates for
>Gibson's _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is because Gibson's US publisher wants to
>trim the book by at least a third before releasing it here, and Gibson
>naturally doesn't like the idea.

It's just a rumour, folks!  I talked to Gibson this weekend (at the BOREAL
10 convention in Chicoutimi) and he mentioned that Victor Gollancz, his
British publisher, was able to get MLO out so fast in Britain because of
dedication above and beyond the call of duty.  His US publisher (is it
Bantam?  I'm really not sure of this) needs two months+ just to get the
typesetting and other things done.  Ah, well, that's mass-market publishing
for you...  BTW, for those who're wondering : Chicoutimi is in the heart of
the Saguenay region of beautiful Quebec, Canada, The Great White North.
BOREAL 10 was a great success, drawing writers from both the States
(Gibson, K.S. Robinson) and francophone Europe (Dunyach & Berthelot, among
others).  Wish you'd been there!

Yves Meynard
meynard@iros1.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 01:03:18 GMT
From: chi@csvax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher)
Subject: A Dune Question

In _Dune_ (the book, of course), what sort of things did the Fremen eat?  I
don't have a copy of the book handy, and I can't remember the answer
offhand.  It would seem that with no water in the desert, there would be
nothing available to eat.

Please E-mail all replies: there is no need to clutter up the net with
trivia like this.

Curt Hagenlocher     
...!ames!elroy!cit-vax!chi
chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 22:38:41 GMT
From: rich@julia.math.ucla.edu (Rich Little)
Subject: re: DUNE

jef@rtsg.ee.lbl.gov (JEF POSKANZER) wrote
(concerning the efficiency of the stilsuits):
>Which, of course, was one of the most ludicrous technical flaws in the
>book.  Herbert apparently knew nothing about human metabolism.  We produce
>water as a waste product, oxydized out of the carbohydrates we eat.  If
>his stilsuits really recycled > 90% of the body's excreted water, they
>would pop within days.

This would be true except for one detail that Jef seems to have forgotten:
the person wearing the stilsuit was supposed to drink the recycled water.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 09:34:45 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Dune Encyclopedia

THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA
A Berkley Book/ published by arrangement with the author
Berkley trade paperback edition/June 1984
by Dr. Willis E. McNelly
designed by Jeremiah B. Lighter

ISBN 0-425-06813-7
526 pages, with illustrations

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 88 14:27:00 GMT
From: bradley!frodo@uiucdcs.uucp
Subject: Re: I hated Wild Cards I, should I try

I'd agree that I really found no more sexism than any other "pop-culture
fiction" (or something like that).  I liked the first book the most, and
the third the least.  It was neat to find it all in one novel, but I enjoy
comparing different authors views of the shared universe, and that's not
really possible when the book is seamless.  I'm glad they returned to the
short-story format for the fourth book.

I'll agree that some of the writing left a lot to be desired.  The first
few pages of _Aces High_ (the third book) (with Fortunato as the main
character) were almost enough to make me burn the book.  But I persevered,
and luckily it seems that whoever wrote those first few was discouraged
from writing any more like that.

The fourth book is interesting, in that it deals with a "fact-finding
delegation" to see what conditions are like for jokers in other nations and
cultures.  We'll see if it's worth the trouble when I finish it.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 88 08:40:21 GMT
From: chandave@ncoast.uucp (Davy Chan)
Subject: "With Fate Conspire" by Mike Shupp

  I am in search of a lost author.  Two years ago I read a novel by Mike
Shupp entitled _With_Fate_Conspire_ and went on to read _Morning_of_
Creation.  He was suppose to write two more novels that continued the
storyline but I have not seen nor heard about either for a long long time.
Has anyone heard something I missed?  His novels were not the greatest I
have read but I'm dying to find out how he ties up all the loose ends in
the series.

  For anyone who hasn't read Shupp's two novel, it is about a man, Tim
Harper, that gets kidnapped by an experimental time machine.  He remains in
the time bubble and watches his world disintegrate before him.  The time
bubble drops him off in the year 90,000 and leaves him to cope with the new
world.

Again, the novel is not the best work in the world but it did keep my
interest until the end.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

See ya...

d.c.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 88 13:04:28 GMT
From: carols@drilex.uucp (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Help identifying a book, please!

ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes:
>>The book is "House of Stairs" by William Sleator.  Highly recommended.
>
>   I seem to recall reading a couple of other books by this author at
>the same time that I read "House of Stairs".  
>   Thank you for reminding me of the author's name.  I'd like to find
>these myself.

Orson Scott Card's book review column in the August F&SF refers to five
William Sleator novels to look for.  They are:

   The Boy Who Reversed Himself  (Dutton cloth)
   Singularity  (Dutton cloth) 
   Into the Dream  (Scholastic/Apple, paper)
   Interstellar Pig  (Bantam/Starfire, paper)
   Blackbriar  (Scholastic/Point, paper) 

Remember Scholastic Books?  When the school term starts again, you might
want to find a kid and scavenge the catalogs she brings home from class.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 23:42:00 GMT
From: evanh@sco.com (Evan A.C. Hunt)
Subject: Re: Help identifying a book, please!

girard@infmx.UUCP (Girard Chandler)?
>donna@aoa.UUCP (Donna Albino) writes:
>> About 10-15 years ago, I read a paperback about 3 or 4 kids who are
>> trapped in this huge place filled with staircases. (In fact, that's what
>> the cover pictured) They don't know how they got there, but they search
>
>The book is "House of Stairs" by William Sleator.  Highly recommended.  I
>believe it has been out of print for about 10 years but I have noticed it
>on many occasions in used book stores (in the Boston area, Donna) while
>trying to find other books by him.  Are there any?????

   Yes.  I've seen two other books; I can only remember one of the titles
though.  "Fingers."  As I recall, it was about a child prodigy pianist
who's being possessed by the ghost of some famous dead pianist.  This may
not be an accurate summary--in fact, I can't even recall whether I finished
the book; I was quite unimpressed with it.  Which was disappointing, as I
enjoyed "House of Stairs" tremendously.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 17:16:21 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: William Sleator

Wow.  You guys never cease to amaze me.  How did you all know, KNOW, that
Orson Scott Card was going to review five, count 'em, FIVE books by:

   William Sleator

in the new (August 1988) issue of Fantasy & Science Fiction?????  It just
came Monday night (the 27th), and was quite a surprise after having read
the notes discussing him, over the previous week.

Briefly, Card mentions:
   The Boy Who Reversed Himself (Dutton, cloth)
   Singularity (Dutton, cloth)
   Into the Dream (Scholastic/Apple, paper)
   Interstellar Pig (Bantam/Starfire, paper)
   Blackbriar (Scholastic/Point, paper)

He says, "It was in my junior high library that I read science fiction
classics like Heinlein's .... and Andre Norton's .... Yet all these novels
bear rereading even by adults....The writer who can speak to intelligent,
passionate children has the best and most important audience in the world.
Which brings me, at last to William Sleator.  Chances are that you don't
know his name.  [a week ago, so true... EK] Yet, five, ten, fifteen years
from now we're going to have an astonishing number of hot young writers in
the field to whom the name "William Sleator" will be spoken with the same
affection that many of us used to reserve for "Robert Heinlein" and "Andre
Norton"....Above all, his insight into character is wise and truthful and
unsentimental....At the end of a Sleator novel, you know more about
yourself and the world around you.  You've also read a hell of an
entertaining tale.  ...All these books have passed the acid test.  My
nine-year-old son, Geoffrey, has become so intensely involved in the novels
that he couldn't sleep; and I, about as jaded a science fiction reader as
you could hope to meet, also found the novels fresh and true."

There's much more in the review (including mini-reviews of each of the
above five books).  I've been enjoying Card's column in F&SF, and he's
pointed me at a number of good reads, so far.  Guess I'm going to have to
break down and find one or two of these Sleator novels for myself.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 04:25:51 GMT
From: cks@ziebmef.uucp (Chris Siebenmann)
Subject: _Millenium_ the movie (was Re: LOCUS news #328)

everett@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Everett Kaser) writes:
>From Frank M. Robinson's The Media Scene column:
>   "Millennium, the on-again off-again sf movie based on John Varley's
>   award winning "Air Raid", is on again, and is in the shooting stage
>   already.  John Forman is the producer, Michael Andrews (Around The
>   World In 80 Days) is the director, Kris Kristofferson and Cheryl Ladd
>   are the stars."

 John Varley was kind enough to come to Ad Astra 8 last weekend and spend
an hour talking about this and showing us a videotape of the goings-on at
the set in Toronto (he's apparently been on the set since the start of
Feb., and has been running around with a video recorder all the time). He
wrote the screenplay, by the way.

 From what I remember of _Millenium_ and _Air Raid_, the movie follows the
book fairly accurately, with some changes for filmability. Since what we
saw was a videotape of the filming taking place, there were no special
effects beyond some explosions, but the sets and props looked good and
fairly realistic.

 The film looks very interesting; it certainly seems like it will be better
than Dune was (not that that's hard :-)), and I'm looking forward to its
release (Easter '89 is when Varley said it should be out). I wish I had
more information to offer, but comparing the movie to the book is difficult
since I don't remember the book very well; if people want specific
information, email me and I'll do my best.

Chris Siebenmann
cks@ziebmef.UUCP
uunet!utgpu!{ontmoh!moore,ncrcan}!ziebmef!cks
.....!utgpu[!{ontmoh,ncrcan!brambo}]!cks

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 88 12:42:56 GMT
From: david@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (David Coffield)
Subject: Couple of highly recommended new books

"Fly Fishing" by J.R. Hartley	and

"Escape from Warrington-Runcorn" by Eileen Bilton both published by
Jaune-Page paperbacks.

The former concerns the zany antics of an old author trying to obtain a
copy of a book he wrote many years ago in an attempt to prove his identity
to his family, who want to kick him out of the house.  His secret struggle
builds to an exciting climax when on a chance phone call he strikes lucky
and contacts a bookshop that has a copy. What happens next? No spoilers...
Much better than it sounds, Hartley is a well known UK author, frequently
mentioned on TV. This is his first book and is highly recommended.

The latter is a kind of worn out plot but survivable nonetheless.
Basically it concerns the survival of a group of people trying to get out
of a town in NW England when a strange alien force hits the town and bends
all the buildings. Hmmm. So-so.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 7 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 221

Today's Topics:

		     Television - Star Trek (14 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 May 88 18:33:22 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG - "The Neutral Zone"

"The Neutral Zone" was indeed the season finale for ST:TNG and they are
trying to set things up for next season which will feature the Romulans and
new alien species which will be so dangerous as to force the Federation and
the Romulans to work together. Fandom had very little to do with them
bringing back the Romulans. In actuality the reason why they have brought
back the Roms is because the writers were so incompetent that the Ferengi,
who were supposed to be so dangerous as to have forced the Klingons and the
Feds to ally, came across as the Keystone Kops of outer space. Since the
Ferengi would never be believed as such a major threat they felt it was
necessary to bring in another species and this required an alliance with
yet another alien race from ST:TOS, the Romulans. Whether or not the new
aliens will be the parasites from "Conspiracy" remains to be seen.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 88 00:20:18 GMT
From: tnagreen@trillium.waterloo.edu (Lance Arthur 'Bones' Sibley)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Episode List

Here is the complete list (all spelling corrected :-) :

Encounter at Farpoint 
The Naked Now
Code of Honour
The Last Outpost      
Where No One Has Gone Before  
Lonely Among Us
Justice
The Battle      
Hide and Q
Haven
The Big Goodbye
Datalore
Angel One
11001001
Too Short A Season
When the Bough Breaks
Home Soil
Coming of Age
Heart of Glory
The Arsenal of Freedom
Symbiosis
Skin of Evil
We'll Always Have Paris
Conspiracy
The Neutral Zone

There you go. All in order, no gaps.

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 88 05:49:09 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Data vs. Lore

I just saw the Lore episode for the first time, and have an opinion!

I find the sequence of production reasonable: Lore then Data.  The
professor probably had what I view as a common AI problem: The guy was
trying for human intelligence.  I personally don't see a lot of reason for
developing that - there is plenty around already, and what we need is
something else.  Once Lore was produced, he figured out the same thing,
thence Data.  Lore, with the "human" AI, reasonably enough couldn't face
that and concocted the "I'm better!" story, just like a person would.
Unfortunately, while the Vulcans figured out the (lack?)  of desirability
of "human" intelligence, Data (working alone) has not and wastes his time
trying to become human (no shortage of humans!) instead of attempting to
maximize himself for what he is.  Too bad.....

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 88 00:41:28 GMT
From: mmikula@polyslo.uucp 
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

stewart@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV writes:
>Now we're left with the doctor, who shows remarkably little stability and
>ingenuity for one who has risen to her professional heights, and the
>counsellor who is reduced to feeling somthing or continually questioning
>everyones emotional health.  Were I her superior I' reassign her to a
>place where she couldn't do much harm.  I wish they'd stabilize and flesh
>out the doctor (and do something about the stupid "relationship" with the
>captain) and give the Betazoid something to do other than be emotional.
>(When I first heard them call her councellor, I thought they meant legal
>an thought what a good idea it was to have someone versed in law on a
>first contact/exploratory vehicle.)

Good point on the doctor, I assume she must be a very skilled medic. As for
the counselor, They have been developing here character very nicley in the
last month or so; A lot less "oh..I feel pain..."  and more of a role as a
psychiatrist. She has had some very good lines lately.
 
>Something else I wouldn't mind, is some episodes where exploration

What I'd like to see is a little more creativity in the scripts. Most of
the episodes are the same old plots in a new package.  But it is still by
far the best SF show to come along in a while.

Mitchell B. Mikula 
mmikula@polyslo
...!{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!mmikula 
...!voder!ucbvax!polyslo!mmikula 

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 16:58:03 GMT
From: wlmoore@homxc.uucp (W.MOORE)
Subject: Musings

Last night, I watched The Next Generation for the first time since the
first episode, which left me laughing, but that's another story.  The
episode I saw last night was "11001001" and I just thought I'd throw my
thoughts on it out here.

When the Enterprise was docked, there was this huge illuminated sign that
said "South."  What meaning could "south" possibly have on a free- floating
space station?  Perhaps they were just keeping alive some old tradition,
but what a weird tradition to keep alive!

In the course of the show, Riker said of Minuet, the bits 'n bytes babe in
the holodeck, that she said everything he wanted her to say even before he
knew he wanted her to say it.  (It made more sense when he said it 8-). )
Later on, when Riker and Picard were interrogating her, she looked at him
with those big baby eyes and panted something like "You've just got to help
these people.  You've got to!"  I thought that said a lot about Riker's
character.  All he ever wants is a beautiful damsel in distress to drive
him to action.

My biggest gripe with the program was the way they switched to commercials.
On TOS, when it was commercial time, there would be some dramatic closeup
of someone's face with an unbelievably dramatic chord, then they would cut
straight to the commercial.  The old cliff-hanger effect.  Nowadays, they
show some wishy washy, nondecisive action on the screen, then they cut to
the little title sequence thing with the happy music and everything.  I
found that kind of distracting.

Anybody have any comments on the vastly simplified self-destruct sequence
they use now, compared to the old one?  Is it secure enough?

Anyway, that's my two cents.  (sense?  scents?  sorry.  old joke.)  Have a
nice day.  I'm going to eat lunch now.

Bill Moore

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 14:33:14 GMT
From: glenns@revolver.gatech.edu (Glenn R. Stone)
Subject: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

wlmoore@homxc.UUCP (W.MOORE) writes:
>Anybody have any comments on the vastly simplified self-destruct sequence
>they use now, compared to the old one?  Is it secure enough?

It probably is secure enough, with the laser hand-id and (I assume) voice
id's on both the captain and first officer.... although I remember on TOS
where it also took a second officer of bridge rank (in this case Scotty) to
confirm the captain and f.o.'s order.  You don't want to make it too
difficult to blow up the ship when it is in danger of falling into enemy
hands.....  Hmmm.... wonder how you do it when the f.o. is on an away
mission?

Glenn R. Stone
P. O. Box 30372
Atlanta, GA 30332
(404) 873-1525
..gatech!glenns@revolver.gatech.edu
BITNET : CCASTGS@GITNVE2

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 13:43:46 GMT
From: dkrause@orion.cf.uci.edu (Doug Krause)
Subject: Re: Musings

wlmoore@homxc.UUCP (W.MOORE) writes:
>When the Enterprise was docked, there was this huge illuminated sign that
>said "South."  What meaning could "south" possibly have on a free-
>floating space station?  Perhaps they were just keeping alive some old
>tradition, but what a weird tradition to keep alive!

Just for people orientation.  Sounds better than "The Number 3 End of Space
Station".

>Anybody have any comments on the vastly simplified self-destruct sequence
>they use now, compared to the old one?  Is it secure enough?

Could be more secure.  The old system only relied on voices, while the new
one also uses handprints.  I still like the old way better though.

Douglas Krause
University of California
Irvine
ARPANET: dkrause@orion.cf.uci.edu
BITNET: DJKrause@ucivmsa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 17:38:56 GMT
From: filip@alberta.uucp (Don Filipchuk)
Subject: Re: Musings

wlmoore@homxc.UUCP (W.MOORE) writes:
>My biggest gripe with the program was the way they switched to
>commercials.  On TOS, when it was commercial time, there would be some
>dramatic closeup of someone's face with an unbelievably dramatic chord,
>then they would cut straight to the commercial.  The old cliff-hanger
>effect.  Nowadays, they show some wishy washy, nondecisive action on the
>screen, then they cut to the little title sequence thing with the happy
>music and everything.  I found that kind of distracting.

Hmmmm, I don't know if the way that the show goes to commercials is
station-dependent, but in our area, there is almost ALWAYS a dramatic
finish to the scene before cutting to commercial.  I saw "Datalore" on this
past friday, and I suppose I will see the Binars episode this Friday (I
gather that locally we are about a week behind).
 
At any rate, locally we don't get a cut to the title sequence plus happy
music.  I'm glad we don't, sounds disgusting.
 
Where did some people find the new STTNG novel?  I'd like to look for it,
but a particular bookstore (for example) would be a better place for me to
start.

Don Filipchuk
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 88 01:08:18 GMT
From: admiral%m-5@sun.com (Michael Limprecht SUN Microsystems Mt. View Ca.)
Subject: Re: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

>It probably is secure enough, with the laser hand-id and (I assume) voice
>id's on both the captain and first officer.... although I remember on TOS
>where it also took a second officer of bridge rank (in this case Scotty)
>to confirm the captain and f.o.'s order.  You don't want to make it too
>difficult to blow up the ship when it is in danger of falling into enemy
>hands.....  Hmmm.... wonder how you do it when the f.o. is on an away
>mission?

The ship's computer knows where everybody is on the ship so let's take it
one more step and say the computer would know when the F.O. was off the
ship. The computer would then want the next in the chain of command to
verify the destruct order.

Remember Chekov (is that spelled right, I forgot...) helped with the
distruct order on the Enterprise in TSFS and wasn't a crew member of that
ship. The Captain, or the records officer would probably give the computer
the ship's latest chain of command for that voyage and let the computer go
from there.

Any other Ideas???

May the wind be at your back

Mick

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 05:34:18 GMT
From: jamesd@percival.uucp (James Deibele)
Subject: Re: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

I was going to make a smart remark about flushing the toilets in unison,
which caused me to wonder what they do with, umm, waste.  Meteorites are
quite capable of causing severe damage, even when quite small, (I know,
I've read Asimov's "Marooned off Vesta" several times) because of the high
velocity they're traveling at.  I imagine you could track the Enterprise by
the new asteroid belts it leaves behind it --- when that, ummm, waste is
tossed out at warp 8 and it meets up with a nice planet, the planet isn't
so nice anymore.

I don't think they'd use the "flash" (atomic disintegrator, common in many
SF books) in restrooms: too much chance of reaching up to pull a Playboy
(or Playgirl or Plaything, I guess.  It <is> a mixed crew.) off the stack
and jiggling the handle. . . .

James S. Deibele
jamesd@qiclab
jamesd@percival

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 05:37:55 GMT
From: Richard_Allen_Bretschneider@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

Maybe someone can help me with this...

What was the number of the "General Order" related to self destruct?

Ric Bretschneider

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 19:03:44 GMT
From: rwhite@nusdhub.uucp (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

glenns@revolver.gatech.edu (Glenn R. Stone) says:
>It probably is secure enough, with the laser hand-id and (I assume) voice
>id's on both the captain and first officer.... although I remember on TOS
>where it also took a second officer of bridge rank (in this case Scotty)
>to confirm the captain and f.o.'s order.  You don't want to make it too
>difficult to blow up the ship when it is in danger of falling into enemy
>hands.....  Hmmm.... wonder how you do it when the f.o. is on an away
>mission?

Were I to be the one writing the code, I would say that the on switch was
also retinal id, giving three basic ids.

Also, since there were only two members of star-fleet on the whole ship,
and the ship knew it, It probably adjusted the requirements for destruct.
I dare say that if the f.o. were alone on the ship with the enemy, he could
do it alone.  Besides, from main engineering anybody who can operate the
warp drive can destroy the ship anyway.

c.f. aim and shoot, on manual override.

I always wondered why there was no "key" to the ship.  i.e. anybody who
could reach the console could operate it.

(and it makes me wonder, oh oh, oh oh, oh)

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 01:55:01 GMT
From: brad@looking.uucp (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

The self destruct mechanisms are all stupid.  All you have to do is run the
engines on full for a minute and the ship will blow.  Scotty certainly said
as much every episode.  (I think you all know the famous lines.)

Or fire a phaser at the matter converter, or whatever.  I suppose a
computer self destruct is useful if you get a black & white striped person
who takes over your engines with telekentics, but somehow can't control
your computer, but that doesn't happen a lot.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 18:04:01 GMT
From: mlg@cbnews.att.com (Mike Goodrich)
Subject: Re: Security in Auto-destruct (was: Re: Musings)

>>The self destruct mechanisms are all stupid.  All you have to do is run
>>the engines on full for a minute and the ship will blow.  
>Sure, it'll blow, but will you get the best bang for your buck?  If memory
>serves, the self destruct is almost always used when invaders are going to
>take over the big E.  The idea is that the self destruct mechanism will
>not only melt away Kirk's ship, but will take the alien horde with him.

Actually the self destruct system aboard the Enterprise is more
sophisticated than most of us realize. According to "Mister Scott's Guide
to the Enterprise".  There are actually two types of self destructs.  Which
one is used depends on the final initiation sequence. If the final code
sequence ends in a "0" this triggers explosive charges within the ship's
hull destroying all of the major systems of the ship thus rendering it
useless.  All Anti-matter containment bottles are jettisoned intact.  This
method of self destruction was ment for use in planetary orbit, where an
Anti-matter explosion would destroy the planet.

The second type of self destruction occurs if the final code sequence ends
in a "1" This causes the erosion of the Anti-matter containment bottles and
releases the Anti-matter.

Then BOOOM, an Anti-matter explosion that destroys the Enterprise and
anything else with in about 2 quadrants (this is a guess).

Mike G.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 7 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 222

Today's Topics:

	    Miscellaneous - Uplift (2 msgs) & Planet Building &
                            Robots (6 msgs) & Matter Transfer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 14:01:12 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Did Nigel Kneale invent uplift?

Usually the dramatic media are way behind science fiction literature when
it comes to ideas.  Admittedly I have have limited experience with written
science fiction before the 60's (and after).  But it seems to me that the
earliest reference to the concept of uplift I know of appeared on British
TV.  The concept has since shown in such diverse places as 2001 and Brin's
writing, but it seems to me that I know of no place it really turned up
before Nigel Kneale's 1959 BBC TV play QUATERMASS AND THE PIT in which it
is discovered that a dying Martian civilization uplifted Earth apes to
become intelligent.  Did Kneale invent the concept or are there earlier
sources in the literature?

Mark Leeper
...att!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 88 17:39:24 GMT
From: dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Darren Leigh)
Subject: Re: Did Nigel Kneale invent uplift?

leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>Usually the dramatic media are way behind science fiction literature when
>it comes to ideas.  Admittedly I have have limited experience with written
>science fiction before the 60's (and after).  But it seems to me that the
>earliest reference to the concept of uplift I know of appeared on British
>TV.  The concept has since shown in such diverse places as 2001 and Brin's
>writing, but it seems to me that I know of no place it really turned up
>before Nigel Kneale's 1959 BBC TV play QUATERMASS AND THE PIT in which it
>is discovered that a dying Martian civilization uplifted Earth apes to
>become intelligent.  Did Kneale invent the concept or are there earlier
>sources in the literature?

Actually the idea is a pretty old one.  H. G. Wells did it way back when
with "The Island of Doctor Moreau".  In fact, it has been said many times
that there have been no original ideas in science fiction since Wells.  You
can take that however you want, but nobody can deny that he set the tone of
SF back before the days of space opera.

Darren Leigh
Internet:  dleigh@hplabs.hp.com
UUCP:      hplabs!dleigh

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 88 23:57:25 GMT
From: flak@dad.uucp (Dan Flak)
Subject: Planet Building

As I was reading the part of "Foundation and Earth" about Alpha, I got the
impression that Alpha was built by the Empire. The story explicitly states
that they did, indeed, do some terraforming on it. I can't recall if it
mentioned if they actually built the planet.

Which brings me to the subject of this article. How does one build a
(habitable) planet? I propose that the following method was used by the
Imperial Corps of Engineers (Construction Battalions - CB's) to construct
planets such as Alpha.

It would not be possible to have a life sustaining planet orbiting an
off-beat star. Therefore, pick a suitable star, one small enough not to go
supernova for a million years or so, one with steady radiation, etc.  Alpha
Centuri is such a star with an interesting sideline. It has a companion,
Beta Centuri which orbits the main star every 80 years or so. That puts it
about as far from Alpha as Neptune is from Sol. Any planet orbiting Alpha
in Alpha's temperate zone would have Beta in the night sky for about half
of its year. (Most depictions I've seen of planets orbiting double stars is
to have both suns together in the day sky).

The raw material for the new planet will be made from cometary material.
So, before describing planetary construction techniques, let's discuss
comet theories.

On each pass near the sun, a comet loses some of its mass, and has a
tendency to break up. Obviously, the original complement of sun grazing
comets has been depleted during the hundreds of thousands of passes they
have made since this section of the Galaxy condensed. The comets we see
today must have come from somewhere.

That somewhere is thought to be a storehouse of comets in orbit about twice
the distance of Pluto.  At that distance, the comets should be traveling at
several hundred miles an hour with an orbital period of about 1,000 years.
Occasionally, a passing star, or close encounter with another comet sends
one of these comets tumbling into a more elliptical orbit which bring it
into the inner solar system where it is periodically visible to us.

We now bring in the Imperial Tractor and Tug Company to play a celestial
game of Keplerian Billiards.  At the outer reaches of the stellar system,
the tractors hunt down comets and slow them down. As each comet is slowed,
it loses its tangential component of velocity and falls starward (for
several hundred years) into a highly elliptical orbit. The exact amount of
energy to extract from the comet at this time is calculated to bring it to
the "temperate zone" for the star.  Once it reaches the temperate zone, it
is intercepted by another tractor, (or the same one) where it is slowed
into a nearly circular orbit. The Empire may have even come up with a
conservation of energy scheme where the tractor can absorb the energy on
the far end, store it in some sort of "flywheel" and re-apply the same
energy on re-interception.

Eventually, there will be a ring of comets orbiting the star in the
"temperate zone". It is then the job of the tugs to push them together with
enough angular momentum to rotate with a reasonable "day".  Gravity,
working on the principle of "more is more" will eventually sweep this inner
ring clean as particles accrete into the new planet.

Since comets are mostly iron, silicon and ice, we can expect the planet to
be mostly iron, silicon and water. If enough carbon and nitrogen aren't
found in the cometary mass, we may have to import some methane and ammonia
from the nearest gas giant to give us a starter set on the atmosphere.

At this point, terraforming will still have to be done. Perhaps a
microorganism of some sort could be used to break down the water, methane,
and ammonia into the nitrogen, oxygen and carbon needed for future plants
and animals.

It is also possible that there is enough water that the entire planet is
covered with ocean. The Corps of Engineers would then have to dredge the
oceans to build land mass. This, apparently was the case with Alpha.

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98499
206-581-1322
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!dad!flak

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 21:23:33 GMT
From: afri@garnet.berkeley.edu
Subject: robots

When talking about the diffrences inbetween probstic brains and hardwired
ones we are forgetting several important things.  How do humans learn morals?
and Why is it so easy for us to change?

We learn morals from just being around moral people.  We all know that
murder is illegal, and most of us know it's immoral.  I doubt that any one,
even our mother and father, ever told us straight out that it was immoral,
we just picked it up.  Shouldn't it be the same for robots, since robots
have the same intelligence capacity we do, maybe a little less but they
need it to function in our world.

The reason we can change so rapidly is we are never prostic or hardwired
but "softwired".  A good example of soft-wiring in computers is some of the
work in neural nets.  The brain is not a highly complex computer, since the
underlying design is differnt.

Also if we are talking about expert systems we have the problem that the
system only follows the rules we give it, and sometimes following the rules
can lead to the breaking of a more fundemental one.
  
Thus leading to the robot freezing.  Robots should have no restriction on
their action besides their morals, it is up to their trainer to teach them
these.  Robot morals should start with Asimov's laws of robotics or more
properly morals of robotics.

Aryeh Friedman

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 02:33:18 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Data does NOT have a positronic brain.

gateley@mips.csc.ti.com (John Gateley) writes:
> On a more vague level, I don't think that the three laws were intrinsic.
> The difference is that I think you could build a positronic brain w/o
> them. It is just that when robots were first being built, the populace
> was very paranoid, and the three laws were used as a 'pacifier'. In the
> later days of robots, for some reason, I. Asimov seems to have created
> stupider scientists which were unable to do the math for a brain w/o the
> laws. I vaguely remember some excuse like: so much work has been done on
> the brains with the laws.

Actually, at some point he discloses that the complexity of the posis has
gotten beyond human comprehension and they are basicly designed by
computers.  Computers with the three laws of course, so computers that
naturally, to protect men, must build the laws into new brains.  He then
backs off of this in later stories and has men designing posis again.  Oh
well.

> As for R. Daneel and Giskard, it was not that logic overrode the three
> laws, but that logic introduced a fourth law which took precedence over
> all three.

I felt Asimov was playing this as a law which had been there all along (as
part of the programming of the three) but until such time as a robot could
obtain sufficient information to apply it it was not obvious.  I.E. once
the means of obtaining the data was available the posi-potentials started
changing and analysis of that exposed the hidden law.  Much like hidden
'features' in software.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 17:53:54 GMT
From: gtchen@tybalt.caltech.edu (George T. Chen)
Subject: Re: Data does NOT have a positronic brain.

philip@hubcap.UUCP (Philip L Harshman) writes:
>The three laws were never something intrinsic to positronic brains in
>Asimov's stories.  There were just something that was hard-wired into
>almost every robot brain made in Asimov's universe (I say almost because
>there was at least one robot story with a robot that had a modified copy
>of the three laws).  The three laws had more to do with programming than
>with the construction of the brain.  And in the case of Daneel and R.
>Giskard, this supposedly inviolate programming was overridden by their
>logic.

What's the difference between something intrinsic and something that's
hard-wired?  As I recall from _The Naked Sun_ (Has any commented on the
obvious allusions?) the three laws were inseparable from the positronic
brain.  Numerous attempts to construct a posi-brain w/o the laws were
failures.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 88 20:29:20 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Data does NOT have a positronic brain.

gtchen@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (George T. Chen) writes:
>What's the difference between something intrinsic and something that's
>hard-wired?  [...] 
>Numerous attempts to construct a posi-brain w/o the laws were
>failures.

1) intrinsic     cannot be changed without changing the underlying
                 technology (ie use something other than positronics)
   hard-wired    merely d*mn hard to change.
2) Look up all those failures, they're all attempts by someone or
   other to rapidly hack an alternate positronic brain together.  All
   we know for sure is that the process of redesigning positronic
   brains to the point where they'd no longer have the three laws
   built in is so hard that nobody's ever taken the decade it would
   need.
(I really will have to get some copies of I Robot &c, I distinctly
remember that the issue is dealt with several times)

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 03:56:43 GMT
From: gateley@mips.csc.ti.com (John Gateley)
Subject: Re: Data does NOT have a positronic brain.

gtchen@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (George T. Chen) writes:
>What's the difference between something intrinsic and something that's
>hard-wired?  As I recall from _The Naked Sun_ (Has any commented on the
>obvious allusions?) the three laws were inseparable from the positronic
>brain.  Numerous attempts to construct a posi-brain w/o the laws were
>failure.

I just reread "I, Robot" a couple of days ago, so I have an answer for this
one. There is one story where the first law was changed so that a robot,
through inaction, could allow a human to come to harm. This was because the
humans needed to work in a dangerous environment and 'normal' robots would
not let them. In this story, Dr. Susan Calvin shows how this simple
modification could allow a robot to kill a human!

On a more vague level, I don't think that the three laws were intrinsic.
The difference is that I think you could build a positronic brain w/o them.
It is just that when robots were first being built, the populace was very
paranoid, and the three laws were used as a 'pacifier'. In the later days
of robots, for some reason, I. Asimov seems to have created stupider
scientists which were unable to do the math for a brain w/o the laws. I
vaguely remember some excuse like: so much work has been done on the brains
with the laws.

As for R. Daneel and Giskard, it was not that logic overrode the three
laws, but that logic introduced a fourth law which took precedence over all
three.

John

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 88 12:23:27 GMT
From: eddy@easby.durham.ac.uk (Eddy Younger)
Subject: Positronic Brains.

gtchen@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (George T. Chen) writes:
>What's the difference between something intrinsic and something that's
>hard-wired?  As I recall from _The Naked Sun_ (Has any commented on the
>obvious allusions?) the three laws were inseparable from the positronic
>brain.  Numerous attempts to construct a posi-brain w/o the laws were
>failure.

This point was discussed discussed in "The Caves of Steel" after Bailey had
accused Daneel of murder, and suggested that he had been constructed
without the three laws to allow him to do this. The counter argument was
not that it was impossible to do so but that the three laws were encoded
into the positronic brain at a very low level. To build a brain without
them would involve designing a new brain almost from scratch, a lengthy
process which noone then had the time nor the inclination to undertake.
Whether or not the three laws are a consequence of harware or software
(assuming there is a clear distinction between the two in such a device) is
not clear from this discussion however.

Eddy

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 14:37:00 GMT
From: nelson_p@apollo.uucp (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Matter transfer

Matter transfer devices such as Star Trek's transporter beam have been
popular topics in science fiction for years.  Different authors have
offered different theories about how these devices work but in general they
seem to include:

  1.  You are 'scanned' in some way to determine your constituent
      componenets, which in most cases seems to go down to the
      atomic or subatomic level.
 
  2.  You are disassembled locally.
 
  3.  You are re-assembled at your destination.

  Now it isn't clear whether at the point of re-assembly the exact same
atoms are used in the exact same locations in your body.  Nor is it clear
whether it matters.  One electron should be the same as another, one carbon
atom should be as good as another (assuming it's the same isotope, etc) and
even one water or ATP molecule should do quite as well as the next.  In
fact, if I were the engineer designing such a system I could make much
better use of the bandwidth if I didn't have to worry about such things or
even if I could use locally available carbon, hydrogen, etc.
 
  So let's look at steps 2 and 3 again:
 
  2.   You are killed.

  3.   A *perfect*,  *exact*, duplicate of you appears at the 
       destination.  

  Because the duplicate is exact, it has all your memories, etc.  As far as
IT is concerned, it never died; one moment it was there and the next moment
it is here.  Is there any sense in which it is not truly you?  Would you
step into the transporter booth?

Peter Nelson

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 11 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 223

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Immortality Bibliography &
                            Title Request

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 88 13:29:11 GMT
From: till@didsgn.uucp (didsgn)
Subject: immortality bibliography

NOTE: What follows is updated (rev. 1.1, as it were) - enhanced by
contributions from various correspondents, additional reading, and
insertion of books I just plain FORGOT. This is being re-posted for those
who missed rev 1.0.  Since there were a number of contributions that I
have, so far, been unable to follow-up on, I have flagged those books that
do not meet the I-have-read-it criterion with a rating of "??".  Added at
the end is an additional bit of comment which is fairly irrelevant in
bibliographical terms, but which I wanted to get off my chest anyway.

A List of Immortalist Writings:

The following bibliography, covering books that have been published and
re-published, does *not* list the currently available editions.  Also, some
of the listed works are members of (typically science fiction of fantasy)
series- in which case I have listed the name of the series, and omitted the
individual titles (excepting maybe the one of the first member in order to
get anybody interested started in his search).  My rationale is that
anybody who REALLY wants to find a particular book will go to the effort of
contacting me personally to ask. My email and smail addresses are included
at the end- and I am very willing to supply any further information I have.

The citeria for including books in this list:
   They must include, more than just peripherally, the topic of human 
   immortality or emortality.

   If they are fiction then the removal of the immortalist element would
   have to substantially change the existing storyline.

   If they are non-fiction then the topic must have been covered either
   explicitly or obliquely, as physical immortality, or disguised by by
   references to "longevity".

   I have actually read them either fully or in parts.

The order is alphabetical by author. 

Works are flagged by class:
SF - science fiction
FA - fantasy
GF - general fiction
PH - philosophy
GN - general non-fiction
NA - new-age type of writing
CL - Christian literature

I have marked those works I consider to be of special merit (don't ask
about the criteria!) with 1-4 asterisks (that is not meant to be a
derogation of those who remain unmarked- but merely a reflection of MY
personal preferences and/or inclinations). Also, this rating scheme only
relates to the relevance and/or value of those works as contributions to
the general discussion about the pros and cons of a) the desirability of
immortality as implemented in human beings, and b) ways and means to
achieve it.  Ratings *precede* the listing of the author's name.

Another point worthy of note:

There is an unbelievable treasure of books out there (fiction and non-
fiction) dealing with the topic of human immortality.

In the fictional area, fantasy is typically the most prolific breeding
ground. Here, magic and naturally-supernatural forces take the place of
science- or, quite often, *become* the science of the universe depicted.
Other genres also contain some interesting tidbits, but not quite as many.
This is where Heinlein stands out as the most productive writer.

Non-fiction, however, is where the real surprises lie.  The amount of
serious (rational, believable, -definitely *non-cuckoo* !!-) advocates for
the striving for physical immortality (or "emortality" as it should be
called- meaning "deathless life") is staggering.  The range is equally
suprising, from Taoist to Christian philosphers, to rather materialist
thinkers, and including some seriously scientific and technological
visionaries.

The sample following is LIMITED- believe me. I haven't read even half of
the material I know is out there. That may be either because I have not yet
been able to get a book or piece of writing- or else I have glanced at one
that was available, but considered it to be rubbish (and that omits it from
this list here by implication).  A lot of the stuff written about the topic
is, not suprisingly, quite insufferable. Some of the remainder is out of
print, and may only be found in rare book shops or good libraries. Sorry
abut that, but that's life in emortalist literature...

List follows:

Three literary/cinematographic phenomena do not easily fit my bibliographic
scheme- but they require mentioning anyway:

Rating: *** (and I don't refer to the LITERARY qualities!)
One is from Germany, and started in the early '60s. It was a series of pulp
magazines, published weekly. The name of the series was "Perry Rhodan- Der
Erbe des Universums" ("Inheritor of the Universe").  The last one I read
was issue #550, or thereabouts, and I believe it is still being sold. Some
individual stories out of the series have made their way into the English
speaking realms as paperbacks- but that was but a feeble reflection of the
phenomenon named "Perry Rhodan".  The series itself was, in its scope,
writing, and contents, far superior to the only (even though remote)
equivalent in the US, namely Star Trek.  The core figures (some humans, and
human and un-human aliens) were immortal, kept that way by purely
technological means, provided to them by a superior intelligence. This was,
in every sense, hard-core sf.

Rating: (good question- there is so much variety here that I dare not
judge) The second phenomenon is Star Trek, of course. Here the theme of
immortality creeps up again and again, though predominantly in a negative
context (meaning that either we have lunatic human or human-like immortals
or beings so superior that it makes you sick...). There are, however,
oblique deviations from that trend.

Rating: **
An unabashedly immortalist movie, entitled "Highlander".

Aero, R         - (GN)     The Complete Book of Longevity.

Rating: **
Anthony, Piers  - (FA)     The "Incarnations of Immortality" series.
                           First one is "On a Pale Horse".

Baker, Martha   - (GN)     How to Think To Live Forever.

Rating: *
Bill, AC        - (GN,PH)  The Conquest of Death: An Imminent Step in
                           Evolution.

Bogomolets, AA  - (GN)    The Prolongation of Life.

Rating: ***
Bova, Ben       - (SF,FA)  Orion
                           Orion's Revenge.

Rating: *
Drexler, E.K.   - (GN)    Engines of Creation.

Rating: ***
Eddings, David  - (FA)    The Belgariad and The Malloreon.      
                          Two series of fantasy novels. First book
                          in the Belgariad is "Pawn of Prophecy".  The
                          Belgariad is complete (5 books).  First book in
                          The Malloreon is "Guardians of the West". The
                          Malloreon is currently incomplete (only 2 books
                          published).
Rating: ??
Esfandiary, F.M.- (GN)    Up-wingers: A Futurist Manifesto.

Ettinger, RCW    - (GN)   The Prospect of Immortality.

Rating: *
Farmer, Philip J - (SF,FA)  "World of Tiers" series. First book was
                            "Maker of Universes".
                            Riverworld Series. First book was "To Your
                            Scattered Bodies Go".

Gaze, Harry     -  (PH,CL)  To Live Forever.

Rating: *
Giles, L         - (GN)    A Gallery of Chinese Immortals.

Rating: ***
Gillies, J       - (GN)    Psychological Immortality.

Gruman, G J      - (GN)    A History of Ideas about the Prolongation
                           of Life . (In Transactions of the American 
                           Philosophical Society, Dec 1966).

Rating: *
Gunn, James      - (SF,FA)   The Immortal.
                             The Magicians.

Rating: ****
Harrington, Alan - (GN)    The Immortalist.

Rating: ****
Heinlein, R A    - (SF,FA)   Methuselah's Children.
                             Time Enough for Love.
                             I Will Fear No Evil.
                             Cat Who Walks Through Walls.
                             Number of the Beast.
                                
Rating: *
Herbert, Frank   - (SF,FA)   The "Dune" series of books.

Rating: *
Hilton, James    - (GF)    Lost Horizon.

Rating: *
Hutschnecker, A  - (GN)    The Will to Live.

Rating: *
Jung C G &
Wilhelm, R       - (GN,PH)   The Secret of the Golden Flower. (Translation
                             and comment on an acient Chinese text).

Rating: ??
Juniper, Dean   - (GN)     Man Against Mortality.

Rating: **
Koontz, Dean R   - (GF)    Strangers.
                           Watchers.

Liu, Da          - (GN)    The Tao of Health and Longevity.

McDevitt,  J     - (SF)    The Hercules Text.

Rating: *
Orr, Leonard     - (GN,NA)   Physical Immortality and Transfiguration.
                             Rebirthing in the New Age.

Rating: *
Otto, Stuart     - (PH,CL)   How to Conquer Physical Death.
("Friend Stuart")            The Turning Point.

Rating: ??
Pohl, Fred      - (SF)     The "Heechee" series.

Reeves, M        - (FA)    The Shattered World.

Rating: **
Reynolds, Mack   - (SF)    Eternity.

Rating: ***
Siegel, Bernie   - (GN)    Love, Medicine, and Miracles.

Smith, EE "Doc"  - (SF)    The Lensman series.

Rating: **
Spalding, Baird  - (GN,NA)   The Life and Teaching of the Masters of
                             the Far East (5 volumes).

Stewart, FM      - (SF)    The Methuselah Enzyme.

Rating: ****
Troward, Thomas  - (PH)    The Creative Process in the Individual.
                           The Edinburgh Lectures on Mental Science.

Rating: *
Unamuno, M. de   - (GN,PH) The Tragic Sense of Life.

Vance, Jack      - (SF)    To Live Forever.

Vardeman, R E    - (FA)    The "Centotaph Road" series. First book
                           was "Cenotaph Road").

Rating: ??
Wagner, E K      - (SF)    Bloodstone (and other titles, I am told)

Walford, R L     - (GN)    Maximum Life Span.

Watson, Ian      - (SF)    Croyd (and others, or so I am told)

Watson, Lyall    - (GN)    The Romeo Error.

Wilde, Oscar     - (GF)    The Picture of Dorian Gray.

Rating: ??
Wilhelm, Kate   - (SF)     Welcome to Chaos.

Rating: **
Zelanzy, Roger   - (SF,FA)   This Immortal.
                             Lord of Light.
                             Isle of the Dead.
                             To Die in Italbar.
                             Amber Series.
                             Jack of Shadows.
                             Madwand.

P.S. According to Korean traditions one of the symbols of longevity was
a mushroom, called the "pulloch'o". This fungus was a purely mythical entity, 
puportedly never seen by mortal humans (keep that in mind as you read on).
In many works of Korean art (and the Koreans REALLY had it in for
immortality- much like the ancient Chinese)  the mushroom appears in myriad
places, often in association with other common symbols of eternal life
(such as cranes, turtles, rocks and the peaches from the orchard of
eternal life). Not infrequently immortals are shown as carrying loads of 
them around on their backs, presumably to share them with their cohorts.
The mushrooms themselves, when depicted, look like small clouds with
very peculiar appendages. *Very* much like brains, in fact.
Talk about subtle messages for those who want to see...

(For those interested in a reference, try "Korea's Cultural Roots" by
Dr. Jon Carter Covell, HOLLYM INT. CORP., Elizabeth, New Jersey, 1981)

Rev 1.1 comment to the P.S.:
There was at least ONE perceptive person, who thought it worthwhile to
comment on my reference to Korean immortalist symbolism. I was gratified to
see that it got through to somebody at all- because the matter is, I think,
of some importance.

Following the section of interest in that correspondence (quoted because
there are other interesting comments in here that might elicit some
responses):

>I wonder also if you have heard of the slogan meme SMI2LE (I2 as in
>I-squared)?  It stands for Space Migration, Intelligence applied to
>Intelligence, and Life Extension. Three worthy goals for the future of
>humanity. The term was coined by Timothy Leary. I2 might take a *bit* of
>explaining-- the basic idea is to use intelligence to develop means to
>amplify intelligence (computers, drugs, nanotech, etc.) Was it in this
>sense that you said those Korean mushrooms in the picture were a symbol
>for those who want to see, or was your meaning more ARCANE?

Yes, my meaning (like, I suppose, that of the originators of the mushroom
symbol) was arcane- though not in a necessarily metaphysical sense (or
maybe it was...- I find that hard to pinpoint, as the boundaries between
modern-day physics and metaphysics are, I think, rather blurry...).

For all you closet-emortalists (being one is, as I know only too well,
almost invariably a qualification for discreditation, and an open
invitation for accusations of cuckoo-ism...) I would like to say just this:
I have a jaundiced view of our technological (ANY type of technology)
present and future capabilities (say 10-20 years or thereabouts- and I
would be the first to jubilate if I turned out to be wrong!) to make humans
attain any kind of emortality (or at least carry them through for long
enough to the point where there WILL be the technology necessary).
Cryogenics I find quite unsatisfactory as well, and spend very little time
thinking about (and it is there that I have my main problems with that
otherwise brilliant piece of literature called "The Immortalist").  I have
been researching the topic of physical immortality since about 1972 (at
least that's how far I can trace it back), and arrived at the following
(carefully considered) conclusions.  If emortality is- for a given
individual, alive today- to be an achievable aim, then the reaching of that
goal will have to be the result of an individual effort, which involves,
above all else, a profound change from the "deathist" (that is, I think,
Leonard Orr's term) ways of thinking which pervade our society. Without
that you might as well forget about it completely.  I believe that
emortality can be achieved without taking recourse to excessively stupid
religious rituals (though I am NOT denigrating the value of an adequate set
of metaphysical concepts and beliefs), and that, most certainly, there are
numerous biomedical devices (present and future, electronic,
nanotechnological, biochemical) available or in the offing, that will no
doubt help to support the effort.  In that sense the I2 concept is
perfectly valid. Whatever else we are, we are also biological engines,
which indeed could never be what they are without their "physicality"
(sorry...). It is therefore perfectly legitimate (a part of our continuing
effort, in fact, to make the physical universe into an image of our mental
cosmos) to use apparently "base" engineering methods to engineer the
physical proof of our divinity. It may well be our DUTY to do so- if you
want to talk about purpose and meaning...  (There are some real jewels in
the list above that put this much more eloquently than I can).

Till Noever
210 Spalding Trail N.E.
Atlanta, Ga, 30328 USA
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 06:55:47 GMT
From: rp0q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Roger Preisendefer, III)
Subject: Name that story!

I read a short story a long time ago that caught my attention.  I cannot
remember the title (though I think it could be "The Man Who Could See
Around Corners").  The plot goes something like:

A surgeon treats a man who was brought in for a head injury.  He is forced
to do brain surgery, and removes a tumor-like growth.  The man, on
recovering, complains that he can no longer see around corners.  This leads
the surgeon to take seriously the possibility of psionic abilities.
Through hypnosis, he (or a friend) is able to develop these abilities in a
female friend.  They procede to use the same technique on each other.

One thing or another leads this group to Mount Shasta, where they discover
another person who has these abilities, but much further progressed.  They
are led to a group of similar people, and receive advanced instruction in
the psionic arts.  The large group has long tried to bring these abilities
to the rest of the world, but have met with resistance, from superstition,
ignorance, and another group of psionically trained individuals who use
their abilities to maintain dominant positions in society.

The group eventually decides that to educate people, they should start with
young people, and train a summer camp full of kids.  This, plus a battle,
eventually wins the day for the good guys.

So what is this story, and where can I get it?

Any help would be appreciated!

Roger Preisendefer
rp0q@andrew.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 11 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 224

Today's Topics:

			Books - Cyberpunk (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 88 18:29:10 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Mirrorshades (Ed. Bruce Sterling)

_Mirrorshades_ bills itself as "The Cyberpunk Anthology" but the cyberpunk
lineage of some of the stories is questionable, and the best writing in the
book is Swanwick's inside backcover blurb.  It says something to me that
Sterling has picked mirrored sunglasses as a symbol of cyberpunk.  Mirrored
sunglasses make me think of _Cool Hand Luke_, not computer interfaces.

"The Gernsback Continuum" - William Gibson (From _Universe 11_)

Gibson is the Pope of Cyberpunk, but this early (1981) story from the Pope
has more to do with 50's serials than a future filled with wireheads and
smoke.  The protaganist starts seeing visions of an alternate reality where
the prop future of the 1950's (flying cars, towering skyscrapers and so on)
has come true.  And then, after awhile, he doesn't see it anymore.  Hardly
worth reading, I'm afraid.

"Snake Eyes" - Tom Maddox (From _Omni_, April 1986)

"Snake Eyes" is based on an interesting concept.  Suppose that the best way
to wire the brain is through the "r-complex", the lowest-level, most
primitive part of the brain, that rests atop the spinal cord.  Might the
primitive, unreasoning impulses of that reptilian brain well up unbidden
into the conscious mind?  They do in Maddox's story.  The only false note
is a mysterious AI named Aleph (how clever) that seems to have nothing to
do with story, despite being tightly woven into the plot.  Maddox is a
somewhat inexperienced writer - he's sold a few short stories - so perhaps
his writing will improve.  If so, he might become the prophet of the
transition from external technology to internal technology, if this story
is any indication.

"Rock On" - Pat Cadigan (From _Light Years and Dark_)

Gina is a rock 'n roll sinner, a person who's mental talent is to blend
together the minds of others and turn it into rock 'n roll.  Unfortunately,
she doesn't much like being a sinner, she just wants to live rock 'n roll.
This is a full-on cyberpunk story, no doubt, but all the same it is a bit
dissatisfying.  Pat's vision of the future isn't radical enough to appeal
on its own, and the story isn't weighty enough to shoulder the
responsibility.

"Tales of Houdini" - Rudy Rucker (From _Elsewhere_)

Rucker can bill himself as the Father of Cyberpunk if he wants, but I'll
not be buying him any presents on Father's Day.  As far as this story goes,
it is neither cyberpunk nor even science fiction.  I understand Sterling's
desire to include a Rucker story, but please...

"400 Boys" - Marc Laidlaw (From _Omni_, Nov. 1983)

The best story in the book is only marginally cyberpunk.  It is a curious
mix of punk, desolate future, and drug fantasy.  Huge, powerful infants
come to rule a town devastated by nuclear war, where they are opposed by
youth gangs with mental powers.  It is a curious mix that works because it
concentrates on the characters, letting the dream-like background steal
into the back of the reader's consciousness between sentences.  Still not a
perfect story, but the best this collection has to offer.

"Solstice" - James Patrick Kelly (From _Asimov's_, June 1985)

This is part of a three-story "cyberpunk trilogy", though I haven't read
any of the other components.  Again, you have to stretch the cyberpunk
label a bit to fit over this story.  It is more concerned with drugs than
with cyber, and more with media than with punk.  Still, it is an enjoyable
enough story, but you'll have to read it for the story and not the
trappings.

"Petra" - Greg Bear (From _Omni_, Feb. 1982)

How did this story creep in to a cyberpunk anthology?  It isn't cyberpunk,
much less science fiction, and Greg Bear can hardly be called a cyberpunk
author.  _Blood Music_ is as close as he's come, which might make him
nanopunk, I suppose.  Don't get me wrong - I like Bear's work a lot, and
this isn't a bad sample.  But cyberpunk?  Please.

"Till Human Voices Wake Us" - Lewis Shiner (From _F&SF_, May 1984)

At this point I'm getting a little confused about what is or isn't
cyberpunk.  This is the story of a man - burnt out by his work - who
discovers a mermaid, and eventually becomes a merman himself.  The
cyberpunk connection seems distant at best, the story mediocre.

"Freezone" - John Shirley (From _Eclipse_)

Thank Ghod for John Shirley.  He just explained what cyberpunk is all
about.  It's about rock 'n roll, about blue mesc, about plugging in, about
corporations, about life and death.  Okay, so the story is a bit
derivative.  At least it has a beat.

"Stone Lives" - Paul Di Fillipo (From _F&SF_, August 1985)

I haven't read anything else by Di Fillipo, but this story stands out as
the best crafted story in the anthology.  It has a plot to go along with
the stage scenery.  The scenery, by the way, is cyberpunk, though it
doesn't glow incadescant like Gibson, or crowd the reader like Shirley.
The plot is adequate, with plenty to interest the reader, and even finding
a satisfying (if obvious) ending.

"Red Star, Winter Orbit" - Bruce Sterling & William Gibson (From
    _Omni_, July 1983)

Sterling concludes the anthology with two of his own collaborations.  The
first is this story about a Russian space station, which concludes with
such an obvious political blandishment that I had trouble swallowing for
about an hour after finishing the story.

"Mozart in Mirrorshades" - Bruce Sterling & Lewis Shiner (From _Omni_,
     Sept. 1985)

*Now* I see why Sterling called it _Mirrorshades_.  Despite the gratuitous
self-plug by Sterling, this is a fine, strong story.  Perhaps Sterling and
Shiner bring out the best in one another.  This is a dark, discouraging
tale of a future where the governments and the corporations rape alternate
histories with abandon, and where Mozart shows a little more cunning than
his elders.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
srt@cs.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 17:12:50 GMT
From: sps@pur-phy (SPS Officers account)
Subject: Cyberpunk list wanted

     I would like to find a list of all cyberpunk stories out currently.
If the list becomes too long perhaps it could be shortened to just the last
few years.  If possible I would like to see it contain the magazines any
shorts were published in and the issue #.  I would be glad to help as I
have almost complete collection of IASFM's dating back to before the
bordered covers.(around 1980 or so).

Please reply to ayers@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu

------------------------------

From: bourne@mips.csc.ti.com (Julie Bourne)
Subject: _Neuromancer_ and "cyberpunk"
Date: 8 Jul 88 14:25:28 GMT

I'd like to thank Andrew Siegel, David Blevins, and David Dyer-Bennet for
helping me find other stories and novels in the "cyberpunk" genre and
discussions on _Neuromancer_.  In alt.cyberpunk I found an interesting
discussion on _Neuromancer_.

I thought I'd make a list of the suggested books and stories:

   by William Gibson:  _Count_Zero_
                       _Burning_Chrome_ (a collection)
                       _Mona_Lisa_Overdrive_
                       _The_Gernsbeck_Continuum_ (story or book?)

   by John Brunner:    _Shockwave_Rider_
                       _Stand_on_Zanzibar_
                       _The_Sheep_Look_Up_

   by John M. Ford:    _Web_of_Angels_

   by Walter John Williams: _Hardwired_

If anyone has others to add, please let me know.

Julie C. Bourne
Dallas, Texas
bourne@mips.csc.ti.com

------------------------------

From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Odd NEUROMANCER review...
Date: 8 Jul 88 19:14:34 GMT

Since NEUROMANCER is currently a hot topic on this net again, I thought
some of you might find the following interesting.

Context: Pacific Bell prints a monthly magazine for management called
PACIFIC BELL BUSINESS DIGEST.  NEUROMANCER is the first time I recall them
ever mentioning science fiction in any way.  In fact, I don't believe
they've ever reviewed a novel before.

Part of what makes this interesting is the point of view; Pacific views
itself as a high-tech communications company, so NEUROMANCER deals directly
with the company's _raison_d'etre_.

The reviewer is "an executive communications manager in Pacific Bell's
Corporate Communications Department."

Comments in [square brackets] are mine.

Begin quoted text:

COMPUTER COWBOYS
Riding the Dark Side of the Information Age
by Anne Bagamery

The Information Age is supposed to be a good thing.  In it, everyone can
gain access to the information they need to work smarter, play harder, live
longer.  Size and money give no advantage, society is classless and small
is beautiful.

But what if the Information Age turns out to be a living hell, where jungle
rules prevail and power belongs only to the few who can steal information,
hoard it, and use it to control others?

[Note that throughout the article, Bagamery holds to this idea that the
Sprawl is a "living hell."  I wonder what she'd say if she knew that an
awful lot of people find the world of NEUROMANCER extremely attractive?]

Welcome to the world of NEUROMANCER, 

[Why is it that when mundanes review SF novels, they always have to say
"Welcome to the world of..."?]

William Gibson's dark vision of life in a technological society run amok.
First published in 1984, the book has attracted a cult following among
computer hackers -- brilliant, obsessed techno-punks who break into
databases, tamper with credit records and wreak alectronic havoc.

[I dunno.  Most of the folks I know who like NEUROMANCER have never done
any of these things.]

But NEUROMANCER is more than a work of science fiction.

[Right.  It's a *major* work of science fiction.  Once again, the "How can
this be so good?  It's science fiction, right?" syndrome.]

It poses provocative questions for anyone grappling with the implications
of a global Information Age: Who should own information? What is the best
use of technology? And what are the tradeoffs between access and privacy,
between individual rights and the common good?

NEUROMANCER opens sometime in the future.  A few secretive, family-run
multinationals control the economy, which is based on information storage,
genetic engineering and production of the chemical compounds from which
everything from clothing to food is made.

[No it isn't.  That's just the part of the economy Case is involved in, as
a closer look at NEUROMANCER, or even a brief glance at COUNT ZERO or the
Sprawl stories in BURNING CHROME, would have told the reviewer.  Sigh...]

A large underclass of drifters, outlaws and misfits spends most of its time
dealing drugs and stealing the means to stay alive.

[Again, a failure on the part of the non-sf reader.  She really believes
that the people she sees in the book are a representative sample of their
society.  Who does she think they deal drugs *to*, if they're all dealing?]

Technology is highly developed, but nothing really works.  Food is scarce;
cities are falling apart.  Anybody's "profile" is available to anybody else
- -- for a price.  There's no public governance, so nobody can make sure that
science serves the public welfare.  Nobody, that is, except the "cowboys,"
hackers whose skill at penetrating central databases poses the only real
threat to the ruling class -- or would, if the cowboys chose to use their
skill for the common good instead of personal gain.

The hero of NEUROMANCER is Case, one of the best cowboys of his time, now
down on his luck after stealing from a former employer.  Case is plucked
from the streets by the steely and mysterious Armitage for the ultimate
caper: infiltrating the Tessier-Ashpools, one of the largest and most
secretive of the family empires and Armitage's sworn enemies.  Case's
assignment is to break into the central database and unleash an artificial
intelligence unit that wants to ruin the family for reasons of its own.
Working inside the family compound is Case's accomplice, Molly, a former
hooker with a flair for martial arts and cameras implanted behind mirrored
lenses in her eyes.  Along the way their cohorts include a Rastafarian boat
crew, a computer program with suicidal tendencies, and Peter Riviera, a
"certified psychopath" who can project holograms at will.

In some ways NEUROMANCER is classic sci-fi stuff, full of bright lights and
gizmos.

[AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!]

There are some nice asides about the shortage of naturally produced goods,
like meat: When Case refuses to eat a steak dinner, Molly chastises him
because "they gotta raise a whole animal for years and then they kill it.
This isn't vat stuff!"  There are also the obligatory sex scenes and gory
shoot-outs.

[then this quote from the book is inserted into the text in a different
type- face, and red ink:]

"It was the style that mattered and the style was the same.  The Moderns
were mercenaries, practical jokers, nihilistic technofetishists."
   NEUROMANCER, by William Gibson
   Ace Science Fiction paperback, 1984

[and back to the article:]

But Gibson elevates the sci-fi genre with tight, colorful writing that
veers off like a stray electron and then comes crashing back to reality.
"Hypnotically intricate traceries of rainbow, lattices fine as snow crystal
on a winter window" may strain the imagination of readers who think of
computer programs as green words on a black screen.  Yet the passages are
believable because Gibson creates a plausible world around them, with
enough computer detail to satisfy any "techie."

[Wouldn't she be surprised to learn that Gibson typed this thing on a
manual typewriter?  That he knew very little indeed about computers and
made it by by being sufficiently vague that nobody could accuse him of
gross errors?  Heeheehee...]

As Case and Molly get closer to accomplishing their mission, Gibson's
cynicism about technology without values becomes blatant.  He portrays the
Tessier-Ashpools as the heads of a falling Roman Empire -- insular,
decadent and scheming against each other.  But those who would destroy them
are no better.  It gives away nothing of the ending to say that Case tries
to escape into a more stable way of life: steady job, steady girlfriend.
The only question is, will the computers let him?

NEUROMANCER is not for everyone.  It has a definite style which some may
find obtuse or overdrawn or even offensive.  But the picture it paints of
information access as an instrument of destruction, rather than creation,
is worth thinking about.  Like 1984 and BRAVE NEW WORLD, and the films
BLADE RUNNER and BRAZIL, NEUROMANCER reinforces all our old fears about the
future -- and summons up a few new ones as well.

dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 19:44:40 GMT
From: steele@apple.com (Oliver Steele)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer Discussion Topics

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
>Speaking of which, does anyone have an earlier reference to cyberspace
>than True Names? There isn't any in Shockwave Rider, for example.

I'm not that clear on what cyberspace is, not having read the cited works
yet, but it sounds a lot like _The Eden Experiment_, by Raymond Z. Gallun,
a bit of Zelazny and Saberhagen's _Coils_, PKD's _Ubik_, and Chalker's Well
World series if you interpret the notion of cyberspace very liberally.

Oliver Steele
Apple ATG
steele@apple.apple.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 13:03:04 GMT
From: webber@aramis.rutgers.edu (Bob Webber)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer Discussion Topics

peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes:
> PUGH@nmfecc.arpa.UUCP writes:
> Speaking of which, does anyone have an earlier reference to cyberspace
> than True Names? There isn't any in Shockwave Rider, for example.

Well, there is a 60's short story called The Mathenauts that comes real
close to cyberspace.  Even further back, Lewis Padgett (Henry Kuttner)'s
Mimsy Were the Borogroves fits in nicely.  Alan Nourses' novel Psi High has
alot of the ``right feel'' although there it was supposed to be some sort
of ``other'' dimension you were interacting with.

Bob
webber@athos.rutgers.edu
rutgers!athos.rutgers.edu!webber

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 88 13:56:02 GMT
From: umigw!miami!sugar!peter@ncar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer Discussion Topics

webber@aramis.rutgers.edu (Bob Webber) writes:
> Well, there is a 60's short story called The Mathenauts that comes real
> close to cyberspace.  Even further back, Lewis Padgett (Henry Kuttner)'s
> Mimsy Were the Borogroves fits in nicely.

Huh? I'm not familiar with "The Mathenauts", but I don't see how "Mimsy
Were the Borogroves" fits in at all. Everything happening in that story is
happening in a physical plane. The basic core of what Cyberspace is is that
it's a collective hallucination shared by people using some sort of high
bandwidth direct-brain interface to a computer system. Cyberspace doesn't
really exist, then, in any simple sense.

The toys in Padgetts story definitely had a physical existence, and
directly effected real world objects (such as the children who figured them
out).

Carlos Castenada has more to do with Cyberspace than Padgett.

Peter da Silva.
...!uunet!sugar!peter

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 11 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 225

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - Matter Transfer (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 14:37:00 GMT
From: nelson_p@apollo.uucp (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Matter transfer

Matter transfer devices such as Star Trek's transporter beam have been
popular topics in science fiction for years.  Different authors have
offered different theories about how these devices work but in general they
seem to include:

  1.  You are 'scanned' in some way to determine your constituent
      componenets, which in most cases seems to go down to the
      atomic or subatomic level.
 
  2.  You are disassembled locally.
 
  3.  You are re-assembled at your destination.

  Now it isn't clear whether at the point of re-assembly the exact same
atoms are used in the exact same locations in your body.  Nor is it clear
whether it matters.  One electron should be the same as another, one carbon
atom should be as good as another (assuming it's the same isotope, etc) and
even one water or ATP molecule should do quite as well as the next.  In
fact, if I were the engineer designing such a system I could make much
better use of the bandwidth if I didn't have to worry about such things or
even if I could use locally available carbon, hydrogen, etc.
 
  So let's look at steps 2 and 3 again:
 
  2.   You are killed.

  3.   A *perfect*,  *exact*, duplicate of you appears at the 
       destination.  

  Because the duplicate is exact, it has all your memories, etc.  As far as
IT is concerned, it never died; one moment it was there and the next moment
it is here.  Is there any sense in which it is not truly you?  Would you
step into the transporter booth?

Peter Nelson

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 88 18:53:07 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

Clifford Simak uses your second example in _Way_Station_; he is also one of
only two authors I have seen that provided an answer in the book to the
basic identity question that you bring up (i.e. is it real or is it
Memorex?).  Most authors seem to be entirely ignorant of the consequences
of a breakdown/buildup transmitter.

If I remember correctly, Simak solves it by saying that all sapients have
souls that get transfered to the new body when the old is destroyed.
Farmer postulates a similar soul transfer in his "World of Tiers" series
(body possesion, not matter transfer; but the result is the same
real/memorex paradox).

Also, you have left out what I feel to be the most plausible explanation
for a matter "transmitter".  Take your hand-dandy ACME space/time folder
and warp space so that the originating and destination points are right
next to each other; then just step across.  This would be real neat if
there was a spare spacial dimension lieing around for us to use for this
purpose, but even so, it eliminates the copy/original problem.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

From: jyamato@cory.berkeley.edu (YAMATO JON AYAO)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer
Date: 3 Jul 88 22:06:52 GMT

nelson_p@apollo.UUCP (Peter Nelson) writes:
>Because the duplicate is exact, it has all your memories, etc.  As far as
>IT is concerned, it never died; one moment it was there and the next
>moment it is here.  Is there any sense in which it is not truly you?
>Would you step into the transporter booth?  

I am not sure.  Larry Niven pointed out a big problem here (in "Theory and
Practice of Teleportation"): what if technical advances make it possible
*not* to kill the original?  Or what if the beam is used to make more than
one new copy?

I'm *sure* I wouldn't like to be promiscuously duplicated around the
galaxy.  I probably would refuse to be beamed for just this reason alone.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 88 01:14:40 GMT
From: steele@apple.com (Oliver Steele)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

Well, Mr. Nelson puts it so neatly that I'd have to quote the whole
article, but the gist of it is: when your body is scanned and broken down
for Star Trek-style transportation, aren't you *killed*, even if something
that from that point on is you is created?

This was, I believe, the source of McCoy's long-standing distaste of the
transporter, although I haven't been exposed to Star Trek for too long to
be more specific.  (I'm sure there are one or two more frequent watchers on
the net :-).  It comes more up pointedly in the novel _Spock Must Die_,
where either the original isn't destroyed or two copies of it are made,
although the moral questions there would be more interesting if the copies
were both identical.  More on this later.

It's also investigated in the prologue/forward to William Dennet's and
Douglas Hofstadter's _The Mind's Eye_, which I would suggest everyone rush
out and read before we reproduce most of the metaphysical arguments here.

But the best literary investigation is in the form of a short story in
_Omni_, pre-1985 I believe because that's when I gave up on the magazine.
In this story the analysis phase doesn't destroy the body; this destruction
is done later, and by hand.  The crux of the story is that some people,
probably the same wimpy type who are against putting chlordane and
heptachlore in people's homes, think that this is murder.  And they
"rescue" one of the already processed bodies before its death, and revive
it, at which point its occupant is extremely surprised to find himself not
in London (~) and even more so to find that a copy of itself is, and
rethinks his view on this form of transportation.

As long as you're looking through your old _Omni_'s, there's an Orson Scott
Card story, never (to the best of my knowledge) collected or anthologized,
with roughly the same theme.  (**SPOILER** cf. this story and _The
Prisoner_.)

You may recall that one of the alternate realities pruned from the time
tree in Asimov's _The End of Eternity_ (cf. the Eternals to the
Foundations, as long as we're at it) is so pruned because the matter-
copying device invented there leads to similar moral dilemmas, although
Asimov doesn't touch upon its use for teleportation.

Teleportation seems to be, for obvious reasons (STL can get pretty dull),
fairly common in SF.  I assume that most instances, such as Bester's
jaunting, Niven's teleportation booths (or steps) and Zelazny's booths in
_Eye of Cat_, whatever means of transportation the McCaffrey's Rowan used
(was this just very fast continuous motion?), and the rather poorly
justified mechanism in the story just after (?) the title one in Sturgeon's
_The Stars Like Styx_ do not involve dis- and reassembly.  Are there other
stories that do?

Oliver Steele
Apple ATG
steele@apple.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 88 05:01:38 GMT
From: stevev@uoregon.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

Ray Brown had a fascinating series of stories in _Analog_ a while ago which
started by proposing the problem Peter Nelson is talking about.  In Ray
Brown's universe there were also matter transmitters which had to
completely vaporize the object at the sending end to get the information
needed to duplicate it at the receiving end.  Although his matter
transmitters required equipment at both ends, and receivers had to be sent
by sublight spacecraft to other stars before you could transmit there,
matter transmission had become cheap enough that it was affordable to use
them to travel to even other planets in the Solar System.  Unfortunately,
people didn't adapt well to the idea that they were killed and duplicated,
so use wasn't as high as it could have been.

Then comes the Reformed Sufi movement (appropriately enough conceived when
its founder, drunk at a party, proposed the basic idea).  The basic tenet
of the Reformed Sufi religion is that you are the information that makes
you up.  Therefore, the matter transmitter doesn't really kill you totally,
just extracts the information that is you and send it somewhere else.
Another tenet is that although your soul will not normally survive your
death, you can "grow" it to the point where it will.

The whole idea takes off far beyond what the founder of the movement ever
expected (I wish I could remember his name; I can't get at my collection at
the moment to look more details up).  Soon there's a Reformed Sufi temple
near most major transmat stations, and Reformed Sufism is becoming a
popular religion.

Further stories take this idea that things are the information that make
them up to its logical (and perhaps even illogical) extremes.  In one the
founder of Reformed Sufism visits a hospital planet (as incognito as
possible; he's become very annoyed at being the revered head of a religion
that he proposed as a joke).  It turns out that the hospital planet doesn't
bother to reconstitute his body, but instead just takes the information it
receives and builds a simulation of him that is integrated into a giant
simulation of the former environment of the hospital planet (the planet is
half-covered with the computer equipment that now supports this giant
simulation, and more is being built by robots all the time).  The founder
finds much of the stuff that goes on there obscene--people have begun to
deviate more and more from the behavior of the "real" universe by
manipulating the simulation.  He promptly tries to get himself transmitted
back to the "real" universe, and succeeds--or does he?

A later story takes this to even more absurd lengths.  I don't remember all
the plot details, but we see people being duplicated, a schism between
people in the "slow" (real) universe and the "fast" (simulated) universes,
and astronomers in the "fast" universe stealing Arcturus from the "slow"
universe for an experiment.  The terms "slow" and "fast" come about because
the simulated universe runs about ten times faster than the real one.  Or
is it the real one?  People in the "fast" universe are becoming more and
more convinced that their universe is just as real as the "slow" one-- and
gradually even thinking that theirs is better.  The founder of Reformed
Sufism thinks he's gone on a long spacecraft expedition to the hospital
planet where the "fast" universe is run to bomb it to rubble, but still
doesn't know whether he's really done it or not, since it could have just
been simulated by the people in the "fast" universe to keep him out of the
way and preserve their existence.  And those are just the bizarre bit I
remember.

I'd recommend the series highly--they ran in _Analog_ during '82, '83, and
'84.  It's at least a creative look at matter transmission and the nature
of reality.

While I'm recommending Ray Brown stories, I might as well throw in a
recommendation for "Cobwebs", which appeared last fall in _Analog_.  It's
an interesting story about how a telepathic society might lose touch with
reality.  (Ray Brown seems to be interested in the nature of reality).

Steve VanDevender
uoregon!drizzle!stevev
stevev@oregon1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 88 13:50:10 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

nelson_p@apollo.uucp (Peter Nelson) writes:
>   1.   You are scanned...
>   2.   You are killed.

Or not, see Fred Pohl's "Cuckoo" stories.

>   3.   A *perfect*,  *exact*, duplicate of you appears at the 
>        destination.  

An old debate. Here's another aspect:

    4.   Another *perfect*,  *exact*, duplicate of you appears at
	 another destination.

Twice the fun.

    5.   Your duplicate (or you) dies, and you're restored from backup
	 somewhere.

Hey, I'd *love* a hot backup of myself, available at a moment's notice.

    6.   You lose an arm, and a replica is restored from your latest
	 backup.

What price the Jarvik heart then?

    7.   You're getting old, so you transplant your brain into a newly
	 formed 20 year old body.

Of course, the brain wears out too...

    8.   You've got cancer, so you transport and run the data through an
	 editor and edit the cancer out.

Of course the computation load becomes somewhat (:->) greater.

    9.	 Lt. Tasha Yar gets restored from backup. The Holodeck demonstrated
	 the Enterprise has the compute resources to do this.

Peter da Silva.
...!uunet!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 88 17:04:56 GMT
From: lll-crg!lll-winken!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt@mordor.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

nelson_p@apollo.UUCP (Peter Nelson) writes:
  [ re: The Transporter and how it works.]
>  So let's look at steps 2 and 3 again:
>  2.   You are killed.
>  3.   A *perfect*,  *exact*, duplicate of you appears at the 
>       destination.  
>  Is there any sense in which it is not truly you?

   Well, to answer this question, assume that the scanning process doesn't
mortally vaporize (Larry Niven's phrase, from "The Theory and Practice of
Teleportation-- highly recommended!) the transportee.  Suppose you have
just been 'duplicated' in this fashion, and now someone is holding a gun on
you, telling you to step into the disintegration booth to prevent untidy
duplication of persons.  How would you feel about that?

   Suppose you don't, and disarm the guy somehow.  Which one of 'you' gets
the house, the car, the job, the family, etc?

>  Would you step into the transporter booth?      

   If it works as described, no way whatsoever!  Absolutely not!

   Have you read James Blish's Star Trek novel, "Spock Must Die"?  In it,
McCoy goes through this argument, in effect asking if they aren't
committing murder every time they send someone through the transporter.  Or
at least every time they send someone through the transporter for the first
time.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 06:02:18 GMT
From: lll-crg!lll-winken!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt@mordor.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

steele@apple.apple.com.UUCP (Oliver Steele) writes:
>I assume that most instances, such as [list of transporters deleted]
>do not involve dis- and reassembly.  Are there other stories that do?

Well, there's Poul Anderson's stories in which slower-than-light ships
containing transporters are sent out in all directions, and manned by
rotating crews via a tachyon-based transporter.  This one is particularly
nasty.  A scanning beam records the energy state of every subatomic
particle in your body.  The scanning process causes your body to be broken
down to a highly energetic plasma, which is sucked down into the mechanism.
The signal containing all the information is beamed via tachyon (the only
possible FTL system in these stories) to the receiver, a plasma of the
proper constituency is injected into the receiver, the scanning process is
reversed, and volia!, an exact duplicate, down to the same memories, etc.
The original, of course, has been vaporized.  I don't think Anderson ever
dealt with this problem, or the even worse problem of what happens if you
make a copy of all that information and play it back one or more times.

The most recent story in this universe is, I believe, "The Ways of Love",
in the January '79 issue of "Destinies".  Good, moving story, and well
worth looking up in the used book stores.  (It's long out of print.) 

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP
...uunet!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 00:48:12 GMT
From: csun!lkw@hplabs.uucp (Larry Wake)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

This thread reminds me of a story I read long, long ago in some science
fiction magazine (F&SF?):

Rush hour traffic is now handled by hurtling subway cars into some kind of
computer-controlled vertex, which instantaneously pops each car to its
terminus.  One day, a train disappears but, because another train is at its
arrival point, doesn't reappear for several hours.  Manager of the system
discovers that it really works by the computer destroying the original car,
'memorizing' how it was reconstructed, and rebuilding it at the new site
(sound familiar?).  Unfortunately, its memory integrity deteriorates
rapidly over time, and after the jam is cleared and the car finally
arrives, it and its passengers (including our protagonist's girlfriend)
don't look quite the same way they did at departure time...

Larry Wake
CSUN Computer Center
Mail Drop CCAD
Northridge, CA 91330
lkw@csun.edu
uucp:     {hplabs,rdlvax}!csun!lkw
sun!tsunami!valley!csun!lkw
BITnet:	 LKW@CALSTATE

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 88 08:00:25 EDT
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #226
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 12 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 226

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Borges & Niven (6 msgs) & Shupp &
                         Stapledon & Wilson & Zelazny (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 19:31:29 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Discussion on Jorge Luis Borges

The following comment should help those who are not familiar with the works
of Borges (as I am not):

   Some fantasies go entirely beyond the explicit.  Nothing is logical;
   little is comprehensible.  Those of Jorge Luis Borges come to mind.  The
   method is extraordinarily effective when used well, but is
   extraordinarily hard to use at all, for here we enter not simply the
   mysterious, but Mystery itself.
      Poul Anderson
      "Imagination & Reason"
      MZB's Fantasy Magazine, Summer '88

As I noted above, I'm not familiar with Borges' work, but I have great
respect for Anderson's opinions.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 17:45:23 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

>My opinion is the book is worth reading for a Niven fan, but not quite up
>to his standards.  I liked the Ing story "Cathouse" better than Andersons
>"Iron".

I'll agree. It's like reading imitation Niven. Good if you can't get the
real thing, but frankly I think I'd prefer to go back and re-read some of
the original stuff.

Both stories are good. But they aren't Niven, and both Ing and Anderson
have slightly different ideas of what Known Space is. So it's like viewing
something through a window that's slightly distorting the view -- it's a
little off, but you can't really put your finger on why.

>My main complaint is that I had already read two thirds of the stories
>because Baen had printed "Cathouse" in "New Destinies" last winter.

This is actually a problem with New Destinies -- Jim Baen is "reprinting"
stuff before it's original publication to try to push that series. Not a
new thing with him, unfortunately.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 20:25:52 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

The first story in the book is an old, old Niven story --the one in which
the very peaceful humans try to make first contact with the war-like
Kzinti.  It has a nice twist, but if you've read much Niven you've probably
seen it before or can guess the ending from hearing of 'the Kzinti lesson'.

HOWEVER, the other two stories/novelettes are worth the price of the book.
One is by Poul Anderson --a very typical, well plotted, hard scienced,
decent characterization Anderson story.

The last novelette, by Dean Ing is truely delightful.  Good hard science
(including some nice survival high school geometry), delightful humor,
adventure, character development (what character development!) and a
feminist Kzinti female who meets up with a stranded human.  I know, I know,
How can there be a feminist Kzinti female, when Kzinti females are just
marginally smarter than house plants, right?  Well, therein hangs a tail
(oops, make that tale) that is *great* fun.  Genuine humor without the sort
of silliness where the humor detracts from the adventure in an adventure
story.

Buy, buy; you'll love it.  

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 07:48:22 GMT
From: lll-crg!lll-winken!gethen!abostick@mordor.uucp (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

news@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (news) writes:
>     I always considered Niven's works to be hard-core science fiction
>with intelligent story lines, but these sentences (which are supposed to
>get me to buy the book) seem like an introduction to "Star Wars" or
>"Thunder Cats".  Who are they (Baen Books) trying to appeal to?

The average sf bookbuyer of course!  Remember that the average sf bookbuyer
is either younger or stupider than most of us are.  Remember also that Jim
Baen is a sleazeball who never seems to miss an opportunity to insult his
readers' intelligences.  I predict that this tendency will be even more
pronounced now that his senior editor (I can't remember her name, is it
Betsy Mitchell? see the latest LOCUS) has gone to seek greener pastures.

>    By the way, what are your opinions on the "Smoke Ring" books??  I
>think that Niven has created a stunning new environment with brilliant
>detail, however, nothing exciting seems to happen here.  The only
>interesting character was Kendy.  Reading those books reminded me of the
>first Star Trek film: lots of neat scenery but very little going on.
>Comments??

I, too, found them boring.  This was compounded by the initial howler in
the orientation of the integral trees: He had them oriented by tidal stress
so that their long axis pointed towards the primary, but also made great
pains to point out that there was a wind shear due to the differing orbital
velocities of the air masses at either end.  This wind shear ought to apply
a substantial torque to the trees, causing their equilibrium position to be
significantly away from the "vertical".

Not only that, but with all that wind shear, there ought to be one heck of
a Helmholtz instability in the atmosphere flow.  The weather patterns in
the Smoke Ring should (it seems to me, not having tried any calculations or
simulations) be a lot more irregular and turbulent.  As I sit here and
write this response first draft, I think of so many questions about the
fluid flow in the Smoke Ring that could only be answered by careful
thought, calculation, and probably simulation.  E.g., there probably ought
to be a large-scale circulation of atmosphere carrying heat from the
innermost part of the Smoke Ring to the outermost.  Is the Smoke Ring
rotating at such a speed that this circulation is thermally direct, or is
it moving sufficiently fast that Rossby waves set in or (even worse) it is
(or should be) completely turbulent?  (Sorry, I was scared by a
meteorologist at an early age.  8-))

In short, not only was it boring, but I couldn't believe in it either.

Alan Bostick
ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 16:46:36 GMT
From: lll-crg!lll-winken!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt@mordor.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

Someone mentioned that two-thirds of "The Man-Kzin Wars" had been published
before.  Actually every word of it, except for Niven's short introduction,
has been published before.  I expected "The Man Kzin Wars" to contain the
promised "Pournelle, Drake, and others" contributions, and didn't look at
the table of contents before buying it.  *sigh* Oh, well, the stories
included are good enough that I like having them in one volume, anyway.

"Iron", Poul Anderson's excellent contribution, was serialized in the last
issue of "Far Frontiers" and the first issue of "New Destinies".  I liked
it a lot.  It read like a Poul Anderson story (good stuff!) and had a very
characteristic Niven "getting ideas from Scientific American" ending.

Dean Ing's story, while good, kind of left me cold.  It left too much
unanswered (who in the heck are the zookeepers?) and Ing's Kzinti just
aren't the same critters as Niven's Kzinti.  Unless, perhaps, the 'female
Kzinti' are actually tnuctipun... (cf "Down in Flames") Ooooo, now THAT
could be interesting!  In that case, everything the fuzzy ladies told the
hero is quite probably a lie.  And the zookeepers are probably also
tnuctipun.  I may go back and re-read it keeping that theory in mind. 

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 02:40:54 GMT
From: rdg@hpfcmr.hp.com (Rob Gardner)
Subject: Re: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars (SPOILERS!!)

> SPOILER WARNING
>>He says that the Kzinti in hibernation had been asleep ~40,000 years.  So
>>far so good, if you are talking about a hundred years or so, but
>>*40,000*?!?!  They shouldn't have even been able to understand each other
>>at all to start out.  Other than that it was ok...
> 
> Hmm, you're right!  Think how much the English language has changed
> in only 300 years (Shakespeare)!

I disagree with the proof by example. Consider that there were many other
languages influencing English over the last few hundred years, as well as
many other external causes helping it along, ie, technology, travel,
industry, etc. Consider the Icelandic language. It hasn't changed one bit
in over 1000 years. It's been said that a Viking of 1000 years ago would
have no trouble understanding a modern news broadcast on Icelandic
television.

The Kzin ostensibly come from a planet that only has one language, so there
are a lot fewer things influencing it to evolve. Remember that the 40,000
year old Kzin female did have trouble with the words for new
ideas/technologies. So, I don't consider the language business to be a
"flaw" in the story. I think it's a flaw in many SF stories that the aliens
usually speak just one language.
 
Rob Gardner
Hewlett Packard
Fort Collins, Colorado 80525-9599
303-229-2048
{ihnp4!hpfcla,hplabs!hpfcdc}!rdg
rdg%hpfcmr@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 19:59:02 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars (SPOILERS!!)

okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>>The Ing story was ok, but had one *glaring* problem, something that he
>>was even aware of, but didn't quite consider strongly enough.
>>
>>He says that the Kzinti in hibernation had been asleep ~40,000 years.  So
>>far so good, if you are talking about a hundred years or so, but
>>*40,000*?!?!  They shouldn't have even been able to understand each other
>>at all to start out.  Other than that it was ok...
> 
> Hmm, you're right!  Think how much the English language has changed
> in only 300 years (Shakespeare)!

On the other hand, the various slavic languages haven't diverged very much
at all during the same period (or longer).  If a Russian and a Pole speak
slowly and clearly, they can understand each other fairly well.

A spacefaring culture might have some designed-in way to avoid language
drift (or maybe the Kzinti got far enough along in their development and
never came up with anything new to say.  After all, remember the correct
way to challenge a Kzin to combat?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 18:48:53 GMT
From: haste+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: "With Fate Conspire" by Mike Shupp

chandave@ncoast.UUCP (Davy Chan):
>I am in search of a lost author.  Two years ago I read a novel by Mike
>Shupp entitled _With_Fate_Conspire_ and went on to read
>_Morning_of_Creation.  He was suppose to write two more novels that
>continued the storyline but I have not seen nor heard about either for a
>long long time.

Your question shows excellent timing.  The third book, "Soldier of Another
Fortune", should be out next week.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 88 18:21:22 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: LAST AND FIRST MEN by Olaf Stapledon

		   LAST AND FIRST MEN by Olaf Stapledon
		 Tarcher, 1988 (1930c), ISBN 0-87477-471-3
		      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     With the application of fractal geometry to computer graphics it is
now possible to recreate on a screen the exact texture of the surface of a
mountain.  The same geometry can allow you to create a mountain that never
existed but which has the texture and feel of a mountain that really did
exist.  This is not a new concept..  The "future history" is a type of
science fiction in which a writer, hopefully well-versed in real history,
creates a future that has the texture and feel that make it believable, the
same texture of history past.

     The father of the future history is Olaf Stapledon.  In 1930 he wrote
LAST AND FIRST MEN, which is probably the most complete and detailed future
history, a mammoth 325-page (in the Penguin edition) work of straight
history.  Unlike other authors such as Wells and Heinlein, he did not write
a set of stories, each giving you one point of the future and letting you
fill in the gaps; he wrote in the style of a history book.  Stapledon
starts in his present and covers history with exponentially increasing
speed.  In the end he has covered the next five trillion years of
humanity's future.

     Unhampered by the need for character development or very much of
having to create individual characters at all Stapledon--whom Arthur C.
Clarke has called "the most educated man I have ever met"--is given free
rein to apply the principles of history with a vigorous sprinkling of
science fiction ideas.  Rather than having characters, Stapledon often uses
an entire civilization as if it were a single character; later it becomes
entire species of future man in the same way, as each step the camera pulls
back to show another exponential magnitude of time.

     As Stapledon picks up speed, his style changes and becomes more
entertaining.  Gregory Benford, in his preface to the new edition
recommends that new readers and especially new American readers skip the
first sic chapters.  I did not, but found it might well have been good
advce.  The first six chapters are ponderously written.  They are too much
grounded in the 1930s and in Stapledon's own anti-American prejudices.
Beginning with Chapter Seven his whole attitude toward the book--I hesitate
to call it a novel--changed and he started using less stodgy prose and more
started to enjoy himself.

     By the very nature of the book it is difficult to say what it is all
about because it does not stay about anything for more than a few pages
without going on to be about something else.  What is a new and earth-
shaking idea on one page is an old and outmoded idea ten pages later.  A
future race of man labors hard to create a perfect version of itself.  Not
many pages later, the perfect version is all that is left and the first
race is forgotten.  In Stapledon's future, everything the reader has deeply
believed in is soon dismissed as what an earlier version of man thought for
a while.  But fear not, whatever the current version believes will soon be
forgotten also in the onward rush through time.  Stapledon forsees genetic
engineering, but in a few pages it becomes a decadent form of entertainment
in which odd, deformed creatures are created for amusement.

     LAST AND FIRST MEN works by giving the reader progressively more
dumbfounding scales of time and human development.  When Stapledon wrote
it, he knew of Wells's "scientific romances" but not what science fiction
was, though science fiction was developing independently of him.  Yet LAST
AND FIRST MEN remains a unique book in the field, influencing many current
writers but rarely even imitated and never equaled.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 21:19:14 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@riacs.uucp (MacLeod)
Subject: Colin Wilson

After reading _The Philosopher's Stone_, I thought Colin Wilson was hot
stuff, so I read all of his nonfiction and some other novels.  He did some
very penetrating work in the fifties and sixties, but something happened to
him (I know he took mescaline at least once) and his books became more like
travelogues about this or that topic.  He also published a bunch of pop
parapsychology books and more science fiction.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 05:03:11 GMT
From: ins_ayjk@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Young Je Koh)
Subject: Amber

I recently finished reading the Amber series (Courts of Chaos) and have
some things to clear up.

What exactly happened at the end?  What I mean is, who won the battle
between Chaos and Amber?  What did Corwin mean when he said that he should
go visit the Courts of Chaos?

Also, I'd like to hear your views on the next Amber trilogy (Trumps of
Doom, Blood of Amber, Signs of Chaos).  Are they as good as the original
series?  Maybe better??

Thanks
						
yjk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 17:30:45 GMT
From: sps@pur-phy (SPS Officers account)
Subject: Re: Amber

ins_ayjk@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Young Je Koh) writes:
> What exactly happened at the end?  What I mean is, who won the battle
> between Chaos and Amber?  What did Corwin mean when he said that he
> should go visit the Courts of Chaos?
  
Read the next set of books, they clear up a few of these questions.  I'm
not really sure anyone won the battle.  It just ended when the funeral
procession arrived.  As to 'What exactly happened at the end,' you should
be a little more specific.

> Also, I'd like to hear your views on the next Amber trilogy (Trumps of
> Doom, Blood of Amber, Signs of Chaos).  Are they as good as the original
> series?  Maybe better??

They are just as good and I definitely recommend reading them, although
they are not a trilogy.  The number has not been specified, but I'm laying
my money on five novels in the new series.

Also, if the premise of the Amber series intrigues you you might want to
read the World_of_Tiers series by Phillip Jose Farmer.  It is the series
that the Amber series was based on.  If you're into copies of copies read
the Well World series by Jack Chalker.  All three series have a general all
around sameness and are pretty much entertaining.
  
BTW, Does anyone know when the next Amber book is coming out?

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 13 Jul 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 228

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - Matter Transfer (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 13:49:00 GMT
From: ulowell!apollo!reynolds_l@mit-eddie.uucp (Lee Reynolds)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

One of the more interesting treatments of matter transfer spinoff is to be
found in the two/three in one volume from the Science Fiction Book Club:

   "The Saga of Cuckoo"   by Jack Williamson

Lee

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 16:18:42 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

(Peter Nelson) writes:
>  Matter transfer devices ...  Because the duplicate is exact, it has all
>  your memories, etc.  As far as IT is concerned, it never died; one
>  moment it was there and the next moment it is here.  Is there any sense
>  in which it is not truly you?  Would you step into the transporter
>  booth?

Mary Kuhner writes:
>I am not sure.  Larry Niven pointed out a big problem here (in "Theory and
>Practice of Teleportation"): what if technical advances make it possible
>*not* to kill the original?  Or what if the beam is used to make more than
>one new copy?

Wasn't there a story about just such a mechanism?  A professor type was
"chosen" to help on some distant planet or moon (Uranus? Pluto?).  He
reported to the teleportation station, and was "duped" up to the remote
site.  He then went home - dissapointed that "his" memories weren't the
ones on Pluto.

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
9805 Scranton Rd.
San Diego, CA 92121
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 11:40:58 GMT
From: umigw!miami!sugar!peter@ncar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

charettep%v36h.DECnet@NUSC-WPN.ARPA ("V36H::CHARETTEP") writes:
> You could also create multiple copies of yourself or any other person.
> This could get very confusing ... imagine the embarassment of running
> into yourself!  ;-)

See, _The_man_who_folded_himself_ by David Gerrold (also known to fen as
"the man who fondled himself").

Peter da Silva.
...!uunet!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 13:19:37 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

charettep%v36h.DECnet@NUSC-WPN.ARPA ("V36H::CHARETTEP") writes:
>A system like this would render the concept of death practically
>meaningless.  After all, I could (and would) make a recording of myself at
>age 21 and store it in the system's memory.  Then I would go about having
>a good time until I get older than I care to be.  Then I would step back
>into the machine and transform myself back into a 21 year old and start
>again.  I would also leave a will instructing my surviving family memebers
>to re-create me from this recording in the event of my unfortunate demise.
>Virtual immortality!
>
>You could also create multiple copies of yourself or any other person.
>This could get very confusing ... imagine the embarassment of running into
>yourself!  ;-)

   Well, the problem is that you would have to transfer your memories to
the 21-year-old body.  In case of your unfortunate demise, you would pick
up again at age 21, with no memory of anything happening since then.  This
has been discussed at length in another article, so I won't pursue it.
   I would recommend to anyone interested in the subject a story whose
title escapes me, which I *think* was done by John Varley (I really wish I
had my library here).  Maybe someone else can pinpoint it better.
   It concerns a society in the future in which they do not have instant
matter transfer, but citizens can make recordings of themselves at various
times.  The heroine, a weather composer (she creates ice storms and other
such marvels), relates the apprehension she feels waking up, not knowing if
it will be a second after she lay down to have the recording made, or
several years later (being "resurrected" after the "original" died).  The
story was very well done.  If it was by Varley, it will be in _Persistence
of Vision_ so anyone out there with that collection will quickly be able to
tell me if I'm right or not.
   While we're bringing up the subject, I wondered while watching _The Fly_
(new) why Jeff Goldblum, when he wanted to cure his condition, didn't
simply have the computer search its memory for a record of the fusion,
isolate the fly, subtract it out, and recreate him as he originally stepped
into the pod.  I mean, at first, he liked being part fly, but I think he
really would have changed back later on if he had been able to.  (One could
ask why he didn't program the computer to account for more than one body in
the first place, but the answer to that one is that there wouldn't have
been a movie if he had.)
   Any ideas?

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 14:52:36 GMT
From: eric@hpcilzb.hp.com (Eric Novikoff)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

This theme is also covered in Clifford Simak's "Way Station", in which the
bodies somehow die after the "soul" is transported out, and the poor human
caretaker has to dispose of the mess.  Uck.  Good book, though.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 00:37:45 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa
Subject: bug in matter transference

All this discussion on exact duplicates and so forth is nice theory, but
how many of you believe an engineered machine can do anything to the
precision required by teleportation?  Would you step into a transfer booth
if the copy at the other end was .9995 accurate?  So what if the .0005
included a few brain cells, or a piece of your chromosomes, or a small hole
in a vein?

I always thought it would be interesting to figure out what kind of machine
could scan the position, identity, and momentum of evey atom in a body.
Lets hope it doesn't work on the raster principle.  Besides this, it seems
to me that Heisenberg says you can't do the scan or the reconstruction
exactly (unless you think you can be reconstituted on a scale above what he
worried about).

Teleportation seems like the only civilized way to commute, but my cynicism
would prevent me from trusting it.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 06:50:50 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

nazgul@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU writes:
>I submit that the duplicate really is YOU, in every important sense of the

Do you talk to your reflection?  What does he say to you when you do?  It
is, after all, a duplicate of you - what more could you ask? :-)

>What about the soul?  If we accept a Positivist philosophy (cf. Bertrand
>Russell), then the soul must be one of two things: Either it is in some
>way observable, in which case it can in principle be transported with the
>body, or it is a meaningless concept that we need not consider further.

You don't know how hard I laughed when I read this, it so *obviously* false
that I can't believe anyone would lend credence to it.  Can you package up
and "transport" a child's delight in the antics of a clown?  The horror of
living through Auschwitz?  The sensations of your first kiss?

No, you can't.  You might be able to package their memories, but the soul
exists in the experience, which is not even close to the same thing.  Twins
can have substantialy the same experiences (and therefore memories), yet
they are strikingly individual in so many ways that no accumulation of
minor details could explain why they are not identical personalities.

>Early experiments with the transport system would reveal any detectable
>difference in behavior between persons A and B, and if none were observed
>then I would consider the "soul" question to be provisionally settled.

Would you walk through knowing that you will die *before* you are
recreated?  Whether it happens hours (transmission time) or picoseconds
later, it will nevertheless be later.  And then there's transmission noise;
you've certainly heard static on your radio, how would you like to
experience it firsthand?

>(Nothing scientific is ever ABSOLUTELY proved, but we trust our lives to
>the products of science every day.)

But the question is not your life, but your soul.  Life is cheap, the rest
is priceless.

>Would I step into the booth? ...  If instantaneous transport would permit
>me to act more effectively as a person, citizen, mathematician, etc., then
>I would definitely take advantage of it;

Well, what if it wasn't you that was taking advantage of it, but your
doppelganger?  After all, you're dead, not only do we have the corpse right
here, but we watched you die as you stepped into the "remote duplication
machine".  BTW, since we have the corpse, we could get a death certificate
pretty easily - nice legal problem for your brother "Xerox", eh?

>I'd consider anyone who didn't to be a superstitious fool---unless of
>course he had more concrete reasons for his choice than those discussed
>above.

Unfortunately, the risk is greater than the gain - death versus a shorter
commute?  Not for me, thank you.  Fortunately, the type of transporter you
describe will never happen - the difficulties are simply too great:
bandwidth on transimission of data, reliability of transmission, assembly
of new body, and of course, the scanning of the old.

There are two ways that I have read of in various novels that make much
more sense and even if equaly infeasable, at least they resolve the
doppelganger problem as well:

 Fold space such that the desired points are closer and then just walk
 across.  It'd be real nice if there was a fourth spacial dimension to work
 this with, but no dice yet.  This one sounds very good, but might be
 prohibitively expensive in terms of energy costs.

 Devise a mechanism (does a human psychic count as a mechanism?)  that can
 read the soul from one body and put it in another some distance (light
 years) away.  This one was described in a short story, whose author/title
 I have forgotten, in Analog about 3 years ago.  This method has little
 feasibility, as I know of no psychic that can function reliably on the
 cards, much less on the scale of a middle-earth wizard.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 14:40:51 GMT
From: umigw!miami!sugar!peter@ncar.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
> I would recommend to anyone interested in the subject a story whose title
> escapes me, which I *think* was done by John Varley (I really wish I had
> my library here).  Maybe someone else can pinpoint it better.

I believe the story is called "The Phantom of Kansas". It's particularly
relevant to the current discussion, but I won't spoil it for anyone by
saying how -- it's a murder mystery. It's definitely by Varley, but I can't
find any of my good (i.e., pre-Titan) Varley books to check which one it's
in.

Peter da Silva.
...!uunet!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 21:40:23 GMT
From: tikal!ssc!markz@uw-beaver.uucp (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
> I would recommend to anyone interested in the subject a story whose title
> escapes me, which I *think* was done by John Varley (I really wish I had
> my library here).  Maybe someone else can pinpoint it better.

The Ophiuchi Hotline
John Varley, 1977

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 18:54:03 GMT
From: lll-crg!lll-winken!ubvax!unisv!vanpelt@mordor.uucp (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication of bodies

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>I should not be, but I am surprised at the overwhelming opinion of posters
>here that human beings are nothing but meat and (given some requisite
>technology) can be assembled and disassembled without consequence.
>
>Would you be surprised if your matter transmitter would transmit inanimate
>and animal subjects well, but that all humans who went through arrived as
>unintelligent animals?  The human part, the soul, not being transmitted.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit.

There's a number of possible directions to take this.

1) Transporters work great with all kinds of material.  But if it was
   alive on the transmission end, it's dead on the receiver end.  No
   damage that anyone can detect.  It just isn't alive any more.
   (I think this one has been done before.)

2) Your scenario, works fine on animals, but the soul doesn't make the
   trip.

3) Transmission looks good, the person seems to be OK.  But it soon
   becomes apparent that something is -- changed -- about him.  Something
   very important didn't arrive.  (There's lots of ways to go with this.)

4) One for Stephen King, or possibly Lovecraft:  Transmission looks OK,
   but later we find out something's very wrong.  The person's soul or
   spirit (there's a remark by Paul in the N.T. that seems to imply a
   distinction) is left at the transmitter, and some *THING* has replaced
   it at the receiver end.  Now *IT* has a body with which *IT* can
   directly affect our world -- or *THEY* have lots of bodies, and they're
   getting more all the time, as transporters become more and more popular.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP    

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 88 21:05:34 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!mehawk@gatech.uucp (Michael Sandy)
Subject: Re: bug in matter transference

aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Stack Overflow) writes:
>All this discussion on exact duplicates and so forth is nice theory, but
>how many of you believe an engineered machine can do anything to the
>precision required by teleportation?  Would you step into a transfer booth
>if the copy at the other end was .9995 accurate?  So what if the .0005
>included a few brain cells, or a piece of your chromosomes, or a small
>hole in a vein?

I wouldn't beam ordinary matter at 99.95% success rate!  Say you got U235
intermixed, or your computer discs got a few little X-rays.  The addition
of one atom per billion to pure silicon is enough to give in radically
different properties.  Suppose it get down to one atom per trillion comes
out wrong, like the wrong blip on the DNA, permanently sterile or worse, or
maybe it doesn't 'fix' into matter, and stays in pure energy!  

>I always thought it would be interesting to figure out what kind of
>machine could scan the position, identity, and momentum of evey atom in a
>body.  Lets hope it doesn't work on the raster principle.  Besides this,
>it seems to me that Heisenberg says you can't do the scan or the
>reconstruction exactly (unless you think you can be reconstituted on a
>scale above what he worried about).

You'd also have to scan the whole body simulataneously, or, to put it
another way, when beaming a fluid, in motion, and under pressure, when
fractions of a millimeter will mean shock or worse, not to mention that all
the neurons flash a thousand times a second each.  Imagine dropping a
million ball bearing into a vibrating vat, somehow stopping all their
motion and transportporting them one by one into another vat so that they
move in exactly the same way.  What kind of connection can handle a
trillion plus bits in, oh, say a nanosecond, just to be safe?

>Teleportation seems like the only civilized way to commute, but my
>cynicism would prevent me from trusting it.

Me, I'll stick with Heinlein's nuclear powered Gates in _Tunnel_ in the
_Sky_.  I mean, sure in takes the total solar output for a microsecond to
transport me and my enviroment, but to me, I just love walking beneath
highly radioactive doohickeys ;*) FTL by anyother name, simultaneity, and
fluid dynamics across a one-way gate. (One way energy barrier, gee, what
about quantum tunneling from where the transporter goes?)

Magic Oz gates anybody?

michael sandy
mehawk@reed.edu.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 06:01:30 GMT
From: ka@june.cs.washington.edu (Kenneth Almquist)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

>Matter transfer devices such as Star Trek's transporter beam
>have been popular topics in science fiction for years.
>So let's look at steps 2 and 3 again:
>...
>   2.   You are killed.
>   3.   A *perfect*,  *exact*, duplicate of you appears at the 
	 destination.  
>....
>Because the duplicate is exact, it has all your memories, etc.  As far as
>IT is concerned, it never died; one moment it was there and the next
>moment it is here.  Is there any sense in which it is not truly you?
>Would you step into the transporter booth?

There was an old story in Galaxy (sorry I no longer have it) in which step
2 was omitted.  The two copies thought of themselves as separate
individuals (which was made easier because they never met; the technology
was used only for interstellar travel).  It must be discouraging to train
for a mission on a frontier planet and then step out of the transporter to
find yourself still on earth.  Perhaps it's not surprising that the earth
counterpart of the protagonist died before his clones.

Kenneth Almquist

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 13 Jul 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 227

Today's Topics:

		Books - Heinlein (7 msgs) & Vance (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 23:22:19 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Heinlein

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>An interesting contradiction from "Sunset": Early on, Maureen accepts her
>father's maxim that when somebody tries to convince you that something is
>good because of "natural law", that somebody is selling you a bill of
>goods, and you'd better check your wallet for good measure.  Yet later on
>she justifies many of her own positions on the role of women, and swallows
>many of her father's opinions, all based on assertions suspiciously like a
>claim that "X is good because of X, Y, or Z biological necessity"... ie,
>because of "natural law".

No, I don't think *Heinlein* is being self-contradictory -- I think
*Maureen* is.

Congratulations!  You've found a KEY.

Let me explain.

Heinlein is notorious for (a) putting "mouthpiece" characters in his books
and (b) having said characters contradict each other wildly from book to
book.

Which leads to the popular game of "What does Heinlein *really* think?"
(Or what "did" he think; let's not be fussy.)

Up to now, the main strategy was to discard places where characters
contradicted each other, leaving only statements that were never
contradicted.  There're damn few of these.

Grampaw Johnson, however, is as close to the ultimate "wise man" RAH ever
let himself create.  His Teachings are looked on with awe (awwww...) by
anyone else who runs across them -- much the way the Howards at the
beginning of TIME ENOUGH... treat Lazarus.

Then perhaps we may use this principle:
   When somebody tries to convince you that something is good [or true]
   because of "natural law", that somebody is selling you a bill of goods,
   and you'd better check your wallet for good measure
as a "litmus test" -- that is, perhaps we can discard some of Maureen's
opinions later in the book on this basis.

And perhaps -- just perhaps -- this is Heinlein's way of telling us that
*all* his characters' episodes of reasoning from "natural law" is, and was
always intended to be, suspect.

Fascinating...

...especially since the opinions that have enraged people most, the
opinions that get him branded "fascist" and eighteen other dirty words that
have nothing to do with the matter of his books, are exactly the opinions
that RAH has gone out of his way to derive from "natural law."

Maybe -- just *maybe* -- the old SOB was having us all on.  For thirty
years!

I wouldn't put it past him.  I wouldn't at all put it past him...

dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 88 15:20:53 GMT
From: wrd@tekigm2.tek.com (Bill Dippert)
Subject: To Sail Beyond The Sunset - A Copy?

Am now reading TSBTS and am disturbed by one thing.  I would swear that I
have read the first 2 to 4 chapters in another of RAH's books.  Does anyone
else have this impression also?  If so, which book did he copy from?  Or is
he retelling something that was told in another book but from Maureen's
viewpoint this time?  It just looked and felt awfully familiar!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 19:02:05 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein/sexism/SUNSET

> djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
>> throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop)
>>An interesting contradiction from "Sunset"  [... moral imperatives
>>based on "natural law" are both declared suspect and promulgated by the
>>same character(s) ...]
> No, I don't think *Heinlein* is being self-contradictory -- 
> I think *Maureen* is.

Well, first of all, Dan seems to be jumping to the conclusion that I was
asserting something about Heinlein.  I think if one re-reads my original
post, it should be clear that I was most careful not to do so.

Second, I agree strongly that Heinlein "mouthpiece" characters often
express opinions and do things that are "shown up" as "wrong" by later
events (or even earlier ones).

> Grampaw Johnson, however, is as close to the ultimate "wise man" RAH ever
> let himself create.  His Teachings are looked on with awe (awwww...) by
> anyone else who runs across them -- much the way the Howards at the
> beginning of TIME ENOUGH... treat Lazarus.

But Grampaw Johnson (and Lazarus) go around assigning societal roles to men
and women based on "natural law" (or biological necessity, or "species
survival" or other snake oil) just as much as other characters do.  And
since GJ and LL seem to be the best chances at finding a "true mouthpeice",
I found the fact that GJ contradicted himself on this point very
interesting.  Was he reflecting a Heinlein ambivalence here, or was this
the usual technique of setting up mouthpeices for a fall?

Now, after all that (especially my first paragraph of reply above), I'll
fess up and say that if I were forced to state an opinion, it would be that
Heinlein's apparent preaching about societal roles as related to species
survival is, in fact, genuine Heinlein opinion, and the over-preaching (and
the various flaws in his preaching) constitute the major flaws in his
fiction.

But that's only my current opinion.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 19:06:59 GMT
From: throopw@xyzzy.uucp (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Heinlein/sexism/SUNSET

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
> And since GJ and LL seem to be the best chances at finding a "true
> mouthpeice", I found the fact that GJ contradicted himself on this point
> very interesting.

Also interesting in this context is that it is quite hard to deduce what
Grampaw Johnson or Lazarus Long "really" think from what they say, just as
it is (in my opinion) hard to deduce what Heinlein "really" thought from
what he wrote.

I simply find Heinlein a bit more thoughtful than many give him credit for.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 18:11:00 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re:   Re: R A Heinlein-recommendation

lasibley@lion.waterloo.edu (Lance Arthur Sibley) writes:
>I have been following the Heinlein arguments with an eye to titles of
>books that I might enjoy. I want to get one thing straight right now: I am
>not a Heinlein fan. I have read two of his books: Tunnel in the Sky and
>Farnham's Freehold.

   Probably not the best start. "Tunnel" is pretty good, but many of the
other juveniles are better. FF is (my opinion) one of Heinlein's weakest
books.

>My dislike of Heinlein stems from the fact that real people do not talk in
>the way in which he wrote dialogue in the books I have read

   That's a fair cop. I enjoy RAH's folksy, clever dialogue, usually, but
I've also never met any real people who talk like his characters, and all
of his characters tend to sound alike. I would say that, if you don't like
the dialogue in Heinlein, you'll never like Heinlein. Dialogue makes up the
bulk of most of his novels.

>Okay. My opinion is out in the open. What I want to know is: if Heinlein
>was supposedly so anti-homosexual in his writing (from what I've read, I
>didn't pick this up at all, but like I said, I've probably read the wrong
>books), why on Earth was he thought of as a "closet fag"? (No flames
>please, I'm quoting from a Spider Robinson essay on Heinlein.) *In my
>experience*, (note emphasis) gay-bashers aren't afraid of their own
>feelings, they're afraid of other people's feelings.

   I had to re-read Spider's essay to recall that one. Note that Spider
says he's only heard that particular charge made twice: once in an essay by
Tom Disch, interpreting _Starship Troopers_ as a kind of "leather boys in
space", and once by a drunken fan who didn't even say that - she said that,
based on her reading of _Time Enough For Love_, RAH probably wanted to
screw himself.
   We can probably discount the fan's comment. As for Disch, this is a
standard reverse-psychology interpretation of excessive macho. The idea is
that a man who overemphasizes masculine traits is hiding effeminate
impulses within himself, impulses he fears. I'd say Disch was making very
much from very little, and when you consider that even other rabid
Heinlein-bashers have not picked up on this particular canard, it hardly
seems worth discussing.
   For what it's worth, here's my reading of RAH's attitudes toward
homosexuality. He never mentions it at all prior to _Stranger In A Strange
Land_ (1961), and I suspect he'd never given it much thought. It wasn't a
topic much discussed by anyone back then. SIASL takes passing note of it,
obliquely, as do a couple of his other books from the 1960s, but offer
little to go on. Real discussion of it begins with _I Will Fear No Evil_
(1970), and continues in _Time Enough For Love_, _The Number of the Beast_,
and some of his other late novels.
   Based on what he said and when, I suspect he only began giving the
subject any thought starting in the late 1960s, when the subject first
received widespread public attention (hey, no one's ahead of their time on
*everything* :-). I get the impression that he didn't find it personally
appealing, but, in typical Heinlein fashion, looked at it intellectually,
decided it was a matter of individual choice that society had no legitimate
interest in regulating, and was worth exploring as an intellectual question
in his books.
   Books like IWFNE and TEFL strongly suggest that male-male sexuality is
quite all right, since a number of the sympathetic characters in these
books engage in it. There are, however, hints in some books that RAH
considered exclusive homosexuality (as opposed to bisexuality) as a bit
neurotic, especially if accompanied by a visible attempt to emulate the
opposite sex in dress and manner (the "flaming queen"). But it is always
chancey to attempt to read Heinlein's mind based on what his *characters*
do and say in books of *fiction*, and I can't recall RAH ever discussing
homosexuality in any nonfiction pieces, so this is all quite speculative.

>Can someone tell me where this comes from so that I can read the
>appropriate books and judge for myself? (I don't like people telling me
>what to believe, so all I want are titles, not personal opinions on the
>validity of the theory.)

   Too late, I couldn't keep my mouth shut :-). Anyway, the main books
where the topic arises are IWFNE, TEFL, TNOTB, and _To Sail Beyond The
Sunset_. One problem: I couldn't recommend either IWFNE or TNOTB as very
good examples of Heinlein, especially to someone who doesn't care for his
dialogue - they are nearly solid dialogue. Your best bet would probably be
to read TEFL, which is a good book, and which has a lot to say about human
sexuality in general, and some specific mentions of homosexuality. Better
yet, forget the "closet gay" hypothesis altogether. I wouldn't be surprised
if even Disch has thought better of it by now. The same Freudian logic
which led Disch to suggest it would also imply that RAH would never mention
male-male sex approvingly, because it would be too threatening to him, yet
RAH did exactly that in recent novels. Disch's tasteless and rude remarks
probably predate those books, show that Disch never read them, or simply
show that Disch is an abysmal psychologist as well as a mannerless cretin.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{most major sites}!ames!eos!barry

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 88 18:25:10 GMT
From: barry@eos.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: To Sail Beyond The Sunset - A Copy?

wrd@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Bill Dippert) writes:
>Am now reading TSBTS and am disturbed by one thing.  I would swear that I
>have read the first 2 to 4 chapters in another of RAH's books.  Does
>anyone else have this impression also?  If so, which book did he copy
>from?  Or is he retelling something that was told in another book but from
>Maureen's viewpoint this time?  It just looked and felt awfully familiar!

   TSBTS is a follow-on to _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_, and Pixel,
the cat, and Colin Campbell, who are both mentioned early on in TSBTS, are
characters from TCWWTW. Also mentioned early is the Burroughs Irrelevant
Drive, which cross-references to _The Number of the Beast_. Heinlein, like
a number of other SF writers (e.g., Moorcock, Asimov), apparently decided
it would be fun to tie his books together into one, giant multiverse. But
fear not, TSBTS is not a retelling of another book, it's an original,
though a sequel.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
{most major sites}!ames!eos!barry
barry@eos

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 04:45:50 GMT
From: ames!eos!barry@riacs.uucp (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: pro-Heinlein responses

JUDITH@brynmawr.BITNET writes:
>I would be interested to know if there really _is_ a Heinlein book
>floating around that I haven't read. I think the booklist published in the
>front of _Expanded Universe_ was quite complete but perhaps someone has a
>better bibliography?

   The bibliography in _Expanded Universe_ is nearly complete. It doesn't
list the 4 books that came out after _Expanded Universe_, of course
(_Friday_, _Job_, _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_, _To Sail Beyond The
Sunset_), but I'm sure you know of those.
   But I do know of a couple you may be missing. They're the only two I'm
missing, and have not read. One is _Destination Moon_, put out by Gregg
Press in 1979. It collects materials related to the movie, including a
short story version RAH did ("Destination Moon", Short Stories magazine,
Sept. 1950), the screenplay, and an article he wrote about the making of
the film, ("Shooting 'Destination Moon'", Astounding, July, 1950). There
may be a couple of other odds and ends in the book, too, I'm not sure. I've
seen the book listed in the Currey catalog.
   The other is a serial from the May, June and July, 1958 issues of Boy's
Life entitled "Tenderfoot in Space". To the best of my knowledge, it has
never been reprinted. I sure wish someone would. It may well be awful, but
I'm a completist, and hate being unable to read it for myself.
   There are also two Heinlein short stories I know of which are hard to
find. One is called "Heil!", and has been printed twice that I know of:
once in the Summer, 1940 Futuria Fantasia, a fanmag Ray Bradbury published,
and then reprinted in _Futures To Infinity_, an anthology edited by Sam
Moscowitz (Pyramid, 1970). The other is the only collaboration RAH ever
did, "Beyond Doubt", by Heinlein and Elma Wentz.  It was first published in
the April, 1941 issue of Astonishing Stories, and reprinted in _Beyond the
End of Time_, an anthology edited by Frederik Pohl (Permabooks, 1952).
These two stories I have, and I can assure you they're nothing special, and
of interest only to RAH completists.

Kenn Barry

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 07:53:49 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.uucp (didsgn)
Subject: Araminta Station (not a spoiler, just a comment)

For all those out there who haven't found out about Vance (bookshops have
few titles of his these days...) let me point out that you are missing some
of the best writing this century has brought forth.

As far as "Araminta Station" is concerned, it has pursued me into my
dreams- literally.

Nothing less than magic will suffice as an explanation.

The one dismaying note was that on the jacket there was a mention of a
completed "Lyonesse" trilogy! Whenever did they publish THAT? I could not
have missed it, could I? Woe to me!

Does anybody out there know the title of the 3rd volume about Lyonesse?
Please find it in your heart to tell me- please, please, pretty please !
(and seldom do I grovel so...).

Thanks.

Till Noever
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 12:14:51 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.uucp (didsgn)
Subject: Re: Araminta Station (not a spoiler, just a comment)

THIS IS A FOLLOWUP TO MY OWN POSTING (written after a raid on several local
bookstores of significance):

till@didsgn.UUCP (didsgn) writes:
> .... there was a mention of a completed "Lyonesse" trilogy! Whenever did
> they publish THAT? I could not have missed it, could I? Woe to me!...
> Does anybody out there know the title of the 3rd volume about
> Lyonesse?...

The title I found (in the back of _The Green Pearl_): _Maddouc_
(spelling?).  But nobody knew anything about publication...

I would therefore like to issue a supplication to the editors on the net
(who always impress the lesser beings like me with their erudition- and
insider information, of course!) for their divine assistance.

WELL ?!?!?...

Till Noever
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 18 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 229

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Borges (3 msgs) & Heinlein (3 msgs) &
                       Herbert & Niven (3 msgs) & Sterling &
                       Book Request & Book Request Answers (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 17:50:56 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Borges

palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (David Palmer) writes:
>Borges never got the Nobel (he died recently so he never will), apparently
>because of his politics (I don't know the details, but I've heard that he
>was insufficiently vocal on some subject or other.)

Borges looked upon politics with disdain, an attitude very appropriate if
one lives in Argentina.  For example, he felt the whole Malvinas/Falklands
war was ridiculous nonsense, which the patriotic Argentines found hard to
stomach (plus the fact that he was one-quarter English).  Certainly he was
never vocal, passionate, or machismo in his writings about any "causes" and
his attitude seems to me to be one of ultimate pessimism and "all is
vanity".  This gives his writing a type of existential transcendence which
adds to its greatness, in my view.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 17:41:44 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Borges

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
>Gordon Banks writes about Jorge Luis Borges and other Latin American
>fantasy...
>
>If Borges is the author of _Cien anos de soledad_, as I seem to recall,
>then I have read some of his works.

No that is Gabriel Garcia Marquez.  I like him too, but not as much as
Borges.  Borges is probably even harder to understand though.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 88 13:38:12 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Discussion on Jorge Luis Borges

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>"Some fantasies go entirely beyond the explicit.  Nothing is logical;
>little is comprehensible.  Those of Jorge Luis Borges come to mind."

I'm not sure I entirely agree with Poul Anderson's quote (above).  Rather
than saying that nothing is logical or comprehensible, one might rather say
that Borges does not describe enough of his world for all to be
comprehended or for the logic to be apparent.  The picture we get is
incomplete.  I think Borges might say that this is analogous to the view we
have of our universe.  We see enough that we struggle to make sense out of
it all, but the meaning (if it exists) eludes us.  Certainly this is not
satisfying, but it is stimulating.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 17:48:19 GMT
From: lakesys!wabbit@csd1.milw.wisc.edu (Wabbit)
Subject: Re: pro-Heinlein responses

There is one other short story which I found interesting, but which, to the
best of my knowledge, has not been reprinted for many years.  That is 'Let
There Be Light', which was in early versions of "The Man Who Sold The Moon"
collection.  It's the story behind the Douglas-Martin Sunscreen.

INET:lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu  
UUCP: {rutgers, ames} uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 20:28:09 GMT
From: glockner@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Alexander Glockner)
Subject: Stranger in a Strange Land help requested

SISL p.328 Ace paperback edition...
"Jill thinks so. She thinks Mike was lucky in happening to seduce, or be
seduced by, the one best fitted to start him off right.  Which gives you a
hint if you know how Jill's mind works."

But I don't -- and my intuition is completely silent.  (Apparently I don't
grok this at all.)  Please post or send your conjectures (with
justifications) before I discorporate...

Thanks

Alexander Glockner
glockner%cs@ucsd.edu
{...}!sdcsvax!glockner
{...}!ucsd!beowulf!glockner

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 88 17:45:12 GMT
From: galloway@elma.epfl.ch
Subject: Uncollected or reprinted Heinlein

If you really want to read Heinlein that you've not read before, I suggest
planning a trip to Santa Cruz, CA, specifically the Special Collections of
the UCSC library, which is where Heinlein donated his papers. I stopped
there last summer, and read a fact article about space travel from the
early 60s as well as correspondence between Heinlein and the editor about
the piece. Also, a short story whose title I forget (I was trying to read
as much as fast as possible), but which dealt with invisibility. I can see
(sorry...) why it's not been reprinted, but it was still "new" Heinlein.
And another of the Puddin' stories (see Expanded Universe, Cliff and the
Calories). There are also drafts of most of his novels, along with
corrections.  I believe that when the Heinleins moved from Santa Cruz to
Carmel last year, more papers were donated.

It's recommended that you call a few weeks or so beforehand and find out
what current policies, hours, and the like are for access to the
collection, but I found the librarians to be very friendly and willing to
help out.

tyg
tyg@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 16:34:37 GMT
From: Bourne@mips.csc.ti.com (Julie Bourne)
Subject: _The_Jesus_Incident_

  Has anyone read _The_Jesus_Incident_ by Frank Herbert and Bill Ransom?  I
read it a couple of years ago, and now I am about to read its sequel,
_The_Lazarus_Effect_.  I was wondering if anyone out there likes this
"kind" (if it is a definitive kind, if not, then these books) of science
fiction.

  I have already read _Neuromancer_. Other books I plan to read this summer
(and fall):

     _Mirrorshades_  (ed. Bruce Sterling)
     _True_Names_and_Other_Dangers_ (Vernor Vinge)
     _Shockwave_Rider_ (John Brunner)
     _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_ (Robert Heinlein)
     _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls_ (Robert Heinlein)

Julie Bourne
bourne@mips.csc.ti.com
Dallas Texas

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 88 14:49:07 GMT
From: gsh7w@astsun1.acc.virginia.edu (Greg Hennessy)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars)

vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>But, there is nothing I've ever seen that would indicate that Kzinti were
>monolingual 40,000 years ago.  In fact it seems highly unlikely, given
>thier lower tolerance for over population (RINGWORLD).  I still think that
>the time frame makes the language change issue underplayed in the story.
>
>Has there been anything written to indicate the literacy of Kzinti?

In The Ringworld Engineers Chmee makes a statement that the Kzin Empire is
partially held together by icons. The proofs that the English language has
changed in ~300 years isn't very strong since we have never NEEDED to
understand someone speaking 40,000 year old stuff. And you thought that
grammar teachers were hard now!

Greg Hennessy
Astronomy Department
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu  
UUCP:  ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 88 20:53:15 GMT
From: hoey@ai.etl.army.mil (Dan Hoey)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
On the Smoke Ring books:
>I, too, found them boring.  This was compounded by the initial howler in
>the orientation of the integral trees: He had them oriented by tidal
>stress so that their long axis pointed towards the primary, but also made
>great pains to point out that there was a wind shear due to the differing
>orbital velocities of the air masses at either end.  This wind shear ought
>to apply a substantial torque to the trees, causing their equilibrium
>position to be significantly away from the "vertical".

Well, that depends on their density, and the distribution of mass.
Certainly if they were dense enough, the tilt would be negligible.  Also,
they are counterbalanced to some extent by the weight of the tails.  It
would take more work than I am willing to expend to figure out how dense
and how counterbalanced we are talking about.  But unless *you* expend that
work, I you are mistaken in claiming it impossible.  To call it a
``howler'' is to claim the work in proving this stuff is trivial.

>Not only that, but with all that wind shear... Helmholtz instability...
>(it seems to me, not having tried any calculations or simulations) ...
>questions about the fluid flow in the Smoke Ring that could only be
>answered by careful thought, calculation, and probably simulation.  E.g.,
>... large-scale circulation of atmosphere ... thermally direct, or ...
>Rossby waves ....  In short, not only was it boring, but I couldn't
>believe in it either.

You make it clear that you don't know whether it's possible or not.  Why is
it then unbelievable?  If it bores you, fine, but I find it hard to believe
in your technical quibbles when you haven't done the work you claim is
necessary to determine whether they are valid.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 88 19:43:29 GMT
From: lloyd.camex!nancy@rutgers.edu (Nancy Gray)
Subject: Larry Niven

I just finished reading "Rammer" in Larry Niven's _A Hole in Space_.  The
question was raised in the story of where the RNA for RNA training came
from, but I don't recall its being answered.  I assumed it came from other
corpsicles, but that doesn't explain how they got the knowledge in the
first place.  Any ideas?

Nancy

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 88 12:02:41 GMT
From: sugar!peter@uunet.uucp (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Bringing Gernsback to 78 RPM.

Well, I might as well join in the Mirrorshades review-fest.

This book reminds me of an old story about Hugo Gernsback (told me by Dan'l
DanehyOakes) . It seems he was presenting the Hugo awards on one occasion,
and the first thing he did when he got to the podium was to hold up the
list of Hugo winners and make the claim that not one of the stories that
won was Science Fiction. Now, remember who the Hugos are named after.

This makes the title of the first novel in the book somewhat ironic.
Because, while there are a lot of good stories in this book, very little of
the book is cyberpunk. Many of the stories are set in a cyberpunk milleau,
but they're not cyberpunk stories. The cyber (and even the punk) aspects of
them are just scenery... you could take them out without changing the story
in any significant way.

Most of the book is decent "new wave" type SF. Not a lot of hard science,
but good stories and neat ideas. Cyberpunk, to me, is the resythesis of
this with hard science fiction. A blend of Moorcock and Niven. Before
anyone gives me a hard time about this, I know that Gibson isn't that
terribly good technically. That's OK... a good many hard science fiction
writers (including to some extent Niven) aren't either.

It's particularly interesting that the first story in the book is not only
by William Gibson but is a good example of a non-cyberpunk story. It's a
nice little comment on the predictive powers of SF. Good, almost
mainstream. I can see it being published in Playboy.

"Snake Eyes" and "Rock On" are definitely cyberpunk, no doubt about it. I'm
not sure I liked them, but I'm sure going to be thinking about them. They
have an impact. That's important.

"Tales of Houdini"... nope. More new wave. A fun story, I liked it a lot.
Rucker should do more of this. His more heavily cyberpunk stories are
nowhere near as good. I much prefer his "mathpunk" stuff.

"400 boys" is new wave with cyberpunk hardware tacked on. You could take
the hardware out and it'd stand on its own. Sort of like what you'd get if
you brought up Zenna Henderson's "People" in the background of "The
Clockwork Orange".

"Solstice" is definitely new wave. I can see something like it in
Moorcock's degenerate London, just change the names around to protect the
guilty.

"Petra" is a good story. Reminded me a lot of Bradbury at his best. Again,
it's not cyberpunk.

"Till Human Voices Wake Us" is a bit of a stranger in this company. It's
closer to hard science fiction than most of the book, but the punk aspect
is almost totally missing. Hugo Gernsback would love it.

"Freezone" is more cyberpunk. A decent story, for the most part, but the
ending is too abrupt. It's as if the author started writing a novel, or at
least a novella, and suddenly realised he'd run out of ideas.

"Stone Lives"... you could classify this as cyberpunk, but it kind of
attacks one of the basic assumptions of the genre... people in positions of
power aren't supposed to have any empathy in a cyberpunk story.

"Red Star, Winter Orbit"... more hard science fiction. Niven crossed with
Tom Clancy. Gave me a good feeling, but at the end I was more interested in
the technical details than the story itself.

"Mozart in Mirrorshades"... Another good story, but nothing really there to
distinguish it as cyberpunk.

Peter da Silva.
...!uunet!sugar!peter

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 10:14:31 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.uucp (didsgn)
Subject: looking for a book

Required title and/or author for a book (it was fairly "hard" sf, as I
recall- but is not in my collection any more) dealing with the use of
Goedel ( mathematician, famous for this incompleteness theorem, and may the
Germanic readers forgive my substitution of "oe" for the 'umlaut') numbers
for encrypting information; also there was, I think, the theme of
descendants that outgrew their parents in mental capacity (I think they
went off into space...) was also present.

I have an inkling that Poul Anderson, or somebody of his disposition, may
have authored this- and maybe it is only a novelette or even a short
story...

Any bells ringing?

Till Noever
210 Spalding Trail N.E.
Atlanta, Ga, 30328 USA
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 22:17:40 GMT
From: ritcv!ark@rochester.uucp (Alan Kaminsky)
Subject: Re: Name that story!

> I read a short story a long time ago that caught my attention.  I cannot
> remember the title (though I think it could be "The Man Who Could See
> Around Corners").  The plot goes something like:

[synopsis deleted]

The story is "Lost Legacy" by none other than the late great Robert A.
Heinlein.  Originally published in 1941, I have it in a Heinlein anthology
titled _Assignment_In_Eternity_, a 1954 Signet book.  This book includes
the four novellas "Gulf," "Elsewhen," "Lost Legacy," and "Jerry Was A Man."

The title "Lost Legacy" refers to the story's premise that at one time all
humans had these psionic abilities, but have forgotten how to use them.
Humans retain the potential for developing these abilities, but only a
handful of adepts have actually developed them: one group [the bad guys]
who actively suppress this knowledge of humankind's birthright in order to
pursue their own evil aims, and another group [the good guys] who strive to
enlighten humankind.  The good guys prevail in the end, of course.

Alan Kaminsky
Rochester Institute of Technology
P. O. Box 9887
Rochester, NY  14623
716-475-5255

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 18:08:28 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Looking for a book

>I have an inkling that Poul Anderson, or somebody of his disposition, may
>have authored this- and maybe it is only a novelette or even a short
>story...
>
>Any bells ringing?

As a matter of fact, yes.  Though my record remembering authors is not that
great on the net, that sounds like _Starburst_ by Fred Pohl.  The Goedel
number sounds familiar, and the "descendants" going off into space
definitely fits.

Hope I'm right for once.  I remember the Terrans trying to decipher Goedel
numbers with all this super information in it, and remarking that at the
pace they were going, it would take them almost as long to decipher it as
it would to discover it themselves.  The only other novel I can think of in
which humans received encoded information was _Dragon's Egg_ (R. Forward),
and they had straight coding, I think, not Goedel numbers.

Try _Starburst_. 

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 88 20:04:44 GMT
From: steele@apple.com (Oliver Steele)
Subject: Re: looking for a book

Fred Pohl is the author, and it's a short story in one of his collections
that was made into a novel.  I found the novel pretty dull (and a bit
reminiscent of Delany's _The Ballad of Beta Two_ for some reason); I think
the title of either the collection or the novel is _The Gold at Starbows's
End_.

Oliver Steele
Apple ATG
steele@apple.apple.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 05:11:23 GMT
From: bu-cs!encore!markb@harvard.uucp (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: looking for a book

   Hmmmm, this is a little vague in my memory, but I believe you're
referring to "The Gold At The Starbow's End" by Fred Pohl.  In that story,
a group of people were sent on a years-long interstellar mission, without
knowing that the specific purpose of the mission was to force them, through
long term isolation, to exercise their minds, hopefully improving said
minds.  They drastically exceeded all expectations.  One of the things they
did was to come up with a proof to Goedel's (?) Hypothesis, which states
simply that any even number can be stated as the sum of two primes.

Mark Bernstein
Encore Computer

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 15:34:39 GMT
From: clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Subject: Re: looking for a book

That's Goldbach's Conjecture.

Chris Long
Rutgers University                      
RPO 1878  CN 5063         
New Brunswick, NJ  08903
(201)-932-4170
clong@topaz.rutgers.edu 
rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!clong 

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 18 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 230

Today's Topics:

		Films - Who Framed Roger Rabbit (8 msgs) &
                        Short Circuit 2

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 88 12:56:23 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

			   WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT
		       A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  In a world where Mickey Mouse and Bugs
     Bunny really could come knocking at your door, nearly
     anything can happen.  WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT is a rather
     dull mystery plot set on a really great background where
     cartoon characters rub shoulders with living humans.
     Technical credits and inspiration of having the favorite
     cartoon characters of the 1940s come together in one film
     make the plot inadequacies seem unimportant.  Rating: +2.

     Back in the three or four years after the Second World War, two
different sorts of films were reaching their heyday.  One was the hard-
boiled detective film, which made a tentative start before the war with a
few films like THE MALTESE FALCON, had dried up a little during the war
years, then really hit its stride with films like MURDER, MY SWEET; THE BIG
SLEEP; and LADY IN THE LAKE.  At the same time, Chuck Jones' cartoon
characters began taking on the shapes and styles familiar to modern
viewers.  But no two styles of film could be much further apart than the
film noir detective story and the cartoon form.  At least that was the case
until Gary Wolf wrote the mystery novel WHO CENSORED ROGER RABBIT?  Wolf
set his story in those post-war years but took out the blacks that Raymond
Chandler's detective called "shines" and replaced them with "toons," the
characters of cartoons.  In this world cartoons are just live-action films
in which all the actors are toons.  Adjoining Los Angeles is the ghetto
where all the toon actors live, a place called Toontwon.  Against this
background the film WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT takes place.

     And the background is what is important in this film.  In the
foreground is a sort of prosaic mystery story in which tough-guy (humor)
detective Eddie Valiant (valiantly played by Bob Hoskins) is looking for
the real killer in a murder case in which the police strongly suspect
famous cartoon star Roger Rabbit.  Valiant (at least initially) thinks
Roger is innocent, but he is not so sure about Roger's buxom wife Jessica
Rabbit.  (Don't let the name fool you; she is a very human-looking toon.)
The mystery story is not a very good one and its resolution is
disappointingly bad, but it is unlikely that that will disappoint much of
the audience.  What may resonate a little is the statement against bigotry
against toons or humans.  The technical effect of mixing live action and
cartoon will definitely dazzle most audiences.  The integration of live
action and cartoon, reputed to be flawless, is at least technically very,
very good.  Just occasionally we find Bob Hoskins looking a little too high
as he talks to Roger.  The animators had, after the fact, placed the top of
Roger's head rather than Roger's eyes in Hoskins' line of vision.  But that
quibble aside, this film goes many orders of magnitude beyond any previous
such mixing.  The cartoon characters in the real world have a
three-dimensional quality, resulting from careful use of shadow--no
explanation why they do not have shadowing when they appear in cartoons.

     Among the interesting touches are the attempts to make toons work
consistently in the real world.  Clearly the laws of physics do not work
the same in cartoons as they do in the real world, but when you start
separating cartoon characters from cartoon settings you have to decide
which side gets the ability to break with physical law.  As it turns
out--logically or not- -both sides get it to some extent.  Roger tends to
rocket around a real world room when he drinks a glass of whiskey.  But a
human in Toontown also gets some special cartoon protection like being able
to survive falls.  Apparently toons have magic both in themselves and in
their setting.

     WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT is a cooperation between the two traditional
competitors, Steven Spielberg's Amblin Entertainment and Walt Disney
Enterprises, who decided late in the production that this film would be a
Touchstone film and not a Walt Disney film.  Perhaps they wanted it
released through their adult division because of some violence, though
their professed reason was that Jessica Rabbit was a little too
well-endowed and a little under-dressed for a child audience.  That
cooperation and either the money it brought or the inspiration of the
project bred more cooperation.  As Disney was one of the production
companies, getting permission to use Disney cartoon characters was probably
no problem, but somehow they managed to get Warner Brothers' characters,
complete with Mel Blanc's voice, so you could have Daffy Duck on screen
with Donald Duck and making wisecracks about Donald's speech impediment.
(Donald may have been wisecracking back but with Donald, who can tell?)
Woody Woodpecker and hosts of other cartoon characters are also on hand.
For humans, the cast is not so star-studded but Christopher Lloyd is on
hand with another weird character for director Robert Zemeckis (BACK TO THE
FUTURE).  Then there are Kathleen Turner and Amy Irving who do the voice
for Jessica: Turner does the speaking; Irving does the singing.

     WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT is a great film for lots of reasons, many of
which have little to do with the actual plot.  Rate it a +2 on the -4 to +4
scale.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 05:24:42 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: WHO CENSORED ROGER RABBIT

leeper@mtgzz (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>But no two styles of film could be much further apart than the film noir
>detective story and the cartoon form.  At least that was the case until
>Gary Wolf wrote the mystery novel WHO CENSORED ROGER RABBIT?  Wolf set his
>story in those post-war years but took out the blacks that Raymond
>Chandler's detective called "shines" and replaced them with "toons," the
>characters of cartoons.

Not so.  Wolf's book is 1981 contemporary or nearly so.  No date is given,
but he makes references to JFK, Joe Namath, Hagar the Horrible.  "The TV
showed a closeup of a Rams cheerleader wiggling her fanny, although I
couldn't get too excited by the sight of a possum in tight pink shorts."

I read it after seeing the movie, and I rate it a definite thumps up.  The
movie has little to do with the book--even the 'toons are different.  It's
written like your typical tough guy detective novel gone weird.  Valiant
always seems perfectly poised on the edge of loosing his straight face--the
reader of course gets to go over this edge.  "My main concern is an
incident involving an attack with a custard cream pie."

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 19:32:02 GMT
From: pixar!good@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>The cartoon characters in the real world have a three-dimensional quality,
>resulting from careful use of shadow--no explanation why they do not have
>shadowing when they appear in cartoons.

The DP (Director of Photography) for Roger Rabbit wandered into our
building about a year ago and talked to a couple of us about the film.  The
apparent flatness of the Toons when they are in their own movies is sort of
an industry in joke.  As he put it, "They look flat because they're lit
that way".  What people outside the business can not be expected to know is
that you can make *humans* look very flat by lighting them that way.  It is
quite possible to light a set in a way that eliminates nearly all shadows.

So now you know.

Craig
...{ucbvax,sun}!pixar!good

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 88 04:04:04 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!russky@gatech.uucp (Gregory M Byshenk)
Subject: Re: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

good@pixar.uucp writes:
>The apparent flatness of the Toons when they are in their own movies is
>sort of an industry in joke.  As he put it, "They look flat because
>they're lit that way".  What people outside the business can not be
>expected to know is that you can make *humans* look very flat by lighting
>them that way.  It is quite possible to light a set in a way that
>eliminates nearly all shadows.

The industry "in joke" part of this is that (at least as far as I am aware)
all previous movies which mixed live-action and animated characters used
this type of lighting.  In the human/animated sections of "Mary Poppins,"
for example, the live-action sequences were filmed with a steady camera and
lit so that the actors looked very flat.  So far as I know, WFRR is the
first film to try to make 'toons look like live action, rather than the
other way around.

On a separate, but related WFRR topic.  Many people, both on the net and
off, have commented on the "social commentary" in WFRR ('toons as blacks in
the Hollywood of the '40s, etc.).  For me, this analog doesn't quite work,
because the 'toons *really are* the way they act in their films.  That is,
R. Rabbit can't help screaming out "two bits!" when Judge Dread taps out
the rhythm on the wall, and can take his hand/paw out of the cuffs, but
"only when it's funny," and Baby Herman's response to dropping his cigar is
to cry like a baby.

To my mind, one of the great crimes of Hollywood in this period was that
blacks were forced to play stereotyped charicatures of themselves if they
wanted to work in film.  That is, they played parts which were not at all
like their real lives.

Thus, if WFRR is meant to make 'toons an analog for blacks/other minorities
in the Hollywood of the '40s, the analogy is seriously flawed.  Blacks were
forced into *false* roles; 'toons play what they really are.

Comments?

gregory byshenk
!tektronix!reed!russky

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 88 21:36:47 GMT
From: phri!dasys1!jzitt@cmcl2.uucp (Joe Zitt)
Subject: Re: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT (SPOILER?)

good@pixar.uucp writes:
>The DP (Director of Photography) for Roger Rabbit wandered into our
>building about a year ago and talked to a couple of us about the film.
>The apparent flatness of the Toons when they are in their own movies is
>sort of an industry in joke.  As he put it, "They look flat because
>they're lit that way".  What people outside the business can not be
>expected to know is that you can make *humans* look very flat by lighting
>them that way.  It is quite possible to light a set in a way that
>eliminates nearly all shadows.

....and that's why I was so disappointed by the transition from cartoon to
reality in ther beginning -- the refrigerator suddenly >gained< shadows,
and looked rounded!

If it was all flat because of the lighting, and they can do that to humans
too, why didn't they "continue" the flat lighting and lack of shadows until
the characters left the set?!

Joe Zitt
{sun!hoptoad,cmcl2!phri}!dasys1!jzitt
uunet!wwd!joe

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 88 19:17:51 GMT
From: phri!lewando@cmcl2.uucp (Mark Lewandoski)
Subject: Re: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

russky@reed.UUCP (Gregory M Byshenk) writes:
> On a separate, but related WFRR topic.  Many people, both on the net and
> off, have commented on the "social commentary" in WFRR ('toons as blacks
> in the Hollywood of the '40s, etc.).  For me, this analog doesn't quite
> work, because the 'toons *really are* the way they act in their films...
> ...To my mind, one of the great crimes of Hollywood in this period was
> that blacks were forced to play stereotyped charicatures...  Comments?

This occurred to me too; the analogy is somewhat insulting.  It suggests
that black people just _loved_ playin' servants and cooks, that all they
wanted to do was tapdance for white folks.  Thanks for bringing it up.  By
the way, otherwise I really enjoyed WFRR.

Mark Lewandoski

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 19:19:43 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

The movie is, as widely reported, quite enjoyable.  I must question whether
it can be said to make a strong statement against racism: the main theme is
rather different.  Roger Rabbit said in the bar that the whole purpose of a
toon's life is to make people laugh.  Consider an analogous statement about
blacks or any other oppressed minority and you have a racist statement.
The enormous difference between humans and toons undercuts any metaphorical
anti-racist theme.

The film's makers did not lean very heavily on the weak anti-racist theme,
and one hopes critics will not embarass themselves by making much of little
there.  The main theme, the shaping of modern society by the highway
companies and the beginnings of merger madness, actually was fairly strong
despite the exagerration of its villainous representative.  Here the toon
aspect provides an apt metaphor for the entertainment industry, creativity
in bondage to private interests, and the basic structure of the social
conflict is intact.  The death of public transportation and the
commercialization of entertainment are stories which need to be told, and
here they are.  Many "serious" movies are made with less pertinent themes.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 16:50:09 GMT
From: att!m10ux!rgr@iuvax.uucp (Duke Robillard)
Subject: Re: WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT

lewando@phri.UUCP (Mark Lewandoski) writes:
>russky@reed.UUCP (Gregory M Byshenk) writes:
>> ('toons as blacks in the Hollywood of the '40s, etc.).  For me, this
>> analog doesn't quite work, because the 'toons *really are* the way they
>> act in their films...
>
>This occurred to me too; the analogy is somewhat insulting.  It suggests
>that black people just _loved_ playin' servants and cooks, that all they
>wanted to do was tapdance for white folks.

Good point, but it doesn't work 100%.  Jessica Rabbit, for example, isn't
really happy with the way she has to appear ("I'm not really bad, I'm just
drawn that way").  Baby Herman is also kinda bummed out by the fact that
he's a baby ("I got the libido of a 40 year old with the schwantz of an
infant").  Both of these are examples of the toons disliking the parts they
are forced to play.

Duke Robillard           
AT&T Bell Labs
Murray Hill, NJ
m10ux!rgr@att.UUCP                 
{backbone!}att!m10ux!rgr

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 20:26:35 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: SHORT CIRCUIT 2

			       SHORT CIRCUIT 2
		       A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  The sequel to SHORT CIRCUIT is a very
     minor film as sequels go.  Minor lip-service is paid to the
     idea in the first film that Number Five was alive but it is
     basically a good guys against crooks film with only one
     lesser actor from the first film.  There are a few laughs but
     hardly enough to recommend the film.  Rating: 0.

     It would be hypocritical of me to say that SHORT CIRCUIT 2 is a big
come-down from SHORT CIRCUIT since, frankly, I was not much of a fan of the
first film.  Also, I hate to see a sequel be too much like the original,
and it true that SHORT CIRCUIT 2 was not much like its predecessor.  What
it was like was any of dozens of throw-away summer films. The basic plot
could have been done as a sequel to anything from THE LOVE BUG to STARMAN
with small variations.  In fact, with the exception of Ally Sheedy's
off-screen voice in one scene, there are only two characters in common with
the first film.  One is Number Five itself, now mysteriously called by
Everyone Johnny Five; the other (I am sorry to report to all Asian Indians)
is Ben, the malapropping Indian robotics specialist who is now a toy
manufacturer.

     Ben is in a major United States city--the script seems to imply it is
New York, but you see just about every Toronto landmark except Toronto
Tower itself.  He makes a deal with a department store that he will make a
thousand toy replicas of Number Five in time for Christmas, a deal that
gets him involved with small-time thieves and big-time bank robbers.  But
Number Five is reduced to being just a cute character made out of
electronics parts.  Whether or not he is alive--the major point of the
first film--has little to do with SHORT CIRCUIT 2.

     All this is not to say that there were not a few fairly funny jokes in
SHORT CIRCUIT 2.  I remember laughing more than once at what was happening,
but I frankly expect more from a movie than a few good gags.  If you think
that a dozen or so laughs are worth the price of an admission ticket, be my
guest.  My recommendation, however, is to wait to rent it or see it on
cable.  Rate it a flat 0 on the -4 to +4 scale--for the sake of those dozen
reasonable gags.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 18 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 231

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Conventions (2 msgs) &
                                  Hugo Awards (3 msgs) &
                                  Matter Transfer (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 88 14:16:46 GMT
From: mcf!ttardis!dwl2760@umix.uucp (Dave Lillard)
Subject: Creation CONventions & other diversions

(There has been some talk on the net about conventions lately, so I asked
Dave Lillard (of recent flame-wars with David Gerrold "fame"), an early
entrant into to the world of conventions and a driving force behind some of
the first Star Trek Cons, to respond. -Ed.)

     In the early 70s, I was there.  In fact, I concieved of and ran the
first four STARCONs.  Conventions used to be fun.  Most dealers were honest
Fans who became dealers only to help support their "habit" AND to share
more wit friends - new & old.  Over the years, due primarilly to lack of
profitability to promoters and to cronyism, conventions degenerated into
CONventions.

     Creation CONventions are run by two guys from New York, by the names
of Gary Berman and Adam Mallin.  In addition to the shows, they run shops
in the NY area that specialize in Comics and SF.  At each of their shows
they have the tables near the entrance with all the over-priced
merchandise, competing with the dealers that they've rented space to
(unethical?).  Example: I whole-saled some Trek prints to them that I'd
been retailing at the show for $1 each.  Within 10 minutes they were on
their tables at $4 each.  Needless to say, there were some angry people
when they got around to my table, after spending $4 for my $1 prints.

     To run a Convention properly nowadays it would require seed (start-up)
money in excess of $25,000.  There are too many other, less risky places to
invest monies of this magnitude.  Also, there are much easier ways to make
money.  Though there is a LOT of money to be made in Conventions (just
check out Creation!).  The FINEST Convention being run today is the
NON-PROFIT San Diego Comic Convention.  Which will be held this year August
5 to 7th.  Don't be put off by the name.  Each year literally HUNDREDS of
personalities from all aspects of Fantasy and Science Fiction show up.
People from literature (like Harlan), movies, TV and Comics are always in
attendance.  For the price, IT CAN'T BE BEAT!  If you never go to another
convention, this SHOULD be the one!!  You will have FUUUNNN!!!

Dave Lillard

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 19:03:22 GMT
From: lakesys!wabbit@csd1.milw.wisc.edu (Wabbit)
Subject: Convention - Congenial

	      UNART Presents a New, Unconventional Relaxacon!

			     C O N G E N I A L

			  A relaxacon to be held
				     
			    March 17 - 19, 1989

		       at the Sheraton Racine Hotel

			    Our Guests Include:

			   Mercedes (Misty) Lackey
			  Filker Extrordinaire and
		      Author of 'Arrows of the Queen', 
		    'Arrow's Flight', and 'Arrow's Fall'
		     as our Professional Guest of Honor

			  Reed Waller & Kate Worley
		     Creators of 'Omaha, the Cat Dancer'
			as of Artist Guests of Honor

				 Andy Hooper
		   Editor of 'Take Your Fanac Everywhere'
			  as our Fan Guest of Honor

Hotel:		The Sheraton Racine (Wisconsin)

Convenient Transport
   Shuttle Service from O'Hare (Chicago), Milwaukee's Mitchell Field and
the Milwaukee Amtrak Terminal directly to the hotel.


Filking...Art Show...Hucksters...Videos...Fan Room...Silly Bathing Suit
Contest...Concerts

For More Information, write to:

CONGENIAL
P.O. Box 129
Wilmette, IL 60091

Timothy Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233
(414) 344-6988
INET:lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu  
UUCP: {...rutgers,ames,ucbvax}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 88 17:56:20 GMT
From: galloway@elma.epfl.ch
Subject: Proposed Best Juvenile one-shot 1989 Hugo category

Laurie Mann's mentioned a few times that Noreascon 3, the 1989 Worldcon, is
considering exercising its privilege to have a valid for that Worldcon only
Hugo category to award a hugo for Best Juvenile.

I think there would be problems with this category for almost the same
basic reason there are problems with this year's Other Forms, and to a
degree for Non-Fiction, Semi-Prozine and Fanzine. Namely, determining what
fits into a category like the proposed juvenile is an opinion call, unlike
the division among fiction categories by word count, and, to a lesser
degree, between fiction and non-fiction (and we all know about the problems
involved in determining what is and isn't non-fiction in the past few
years).

What is "juvenile" fiction? Does it mean the book has to have a protagonist
who hasn't reached the age of majority in his/her/it's culture? Does it
mean that it's about growing up or evolving? (but don't all good novels
involve the growth of a character in some sense?) Does it mean that it was
marketed to people under 18? Does it mean that a person under 18 would want
to read it? For any of these, with just a little thought I, and probably
most other people, could name a number of books that fit it, but which I
doubt most people would think of when one refers to juvenile fiction.

Besides, a really good "juvenile" is perfectly able to compete with "adult"
novels.  In fact, at least one acknowledged "juvenile" novel has already
won the Best Novel Hugo; Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein.

What's that? Someone thinks that *that* book couldn't have been intended as
a juvenile, since it's about war and all that. Well, according to Heinlein
in Expanded Universe, it was written and submitted to Scribner's as the
thirteenth in his yearly series of juvenile novels. The juvenile editor
rejected it, so he sold it as a regular novel with at least no mentioned
modifications. So if there'd been a best juvenile category that year, would
it have been eligible for that as well as best novel?

The only way I can see working out a clear description for pigeonholing
certain works into juvenile status would be to limit the nomination and
voting in such a category to those whose birthdays were after December 31,
1970; i.e those who will be under 18 during the work eligibility period of
Jan. 1, 1988 - Dec. 31, 1988. The definition then being that the best
juvenile novel is what juveniles themselves thought of as being the best
novel that year. Otherwise, in addition to the definition problem, isn't it
just a bit patronizing for us adults to be saying what the best juvenile
novel was? After all, if it is a juvenile novel, what makes it the best one
is what juveniles get out of it, not what adults do.

tyg
tyg@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 88 01:43:41 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Proposed Best Juvenile one-shot 1989 Hugo category

galloway@elma.epfl.ch writes:
>Laurie Mann's mentioned a few times that Noreascon 3, the 1989 Worldcon,
>is considering exercising its privilege to have a valid for that Worldcon
>only Hugo category to award a hugo for Best Juvenile.

[Tom lists dozens of ways in which people could quibble over what is and
isn't a juvenile.]

One very easy way to determine if a book is a juvenile or not is to use the
method the libraries and publishers use; i.e., if a library or publisher
classifies a book as a juvenile, then it's a juvenile. Juvenile sf and
fantasy is not usually read by adults, simply because it is classified as
juvenile and put in the children's rooms in libraries and the children's
shelves in bookstores, where most adults (who have the most money to spend)
don't look when they want a good read. Many excellent fantasy and science
fiction novels are classified as juveniles, and have won Caldecott and
Newbery Awards for best children's book, but aren't as widely read as they
could be (examples of the better known of these works are LeGuin's Earthsea
Trilogy, Cooper's Dark is Rising series, Alexander's High King series, Jane
Yolen's books, Alexander Key's Witch Mountain and other excellent
children's sf and fantasy novels, Lewis' Narnia books, Alan Nourse's
medical sf novels -- he originated the title "Bladerunner", Robin
McKinley's Beauty, and her Blue Sword books, and many more). If the Best
Juvenile Hugo award is used correctly, some newer gems like those listed
above may be given some much-deserved and -needed recognition. However, the
Best Juvenile Hugo could degenerate into people fighting over which books
by their favorite authors might be liked by children and so should be
counted, and other nonsense.

(For those who want some more specific differences between an adult novel
and a juvenile, juveniles are usually shorter, have fewer plot elements per
chapter, have no sex (Young Adult novels do), very little violence, with no
"on-screen" gore, and generally rely on characterization and imagination.)

As to who should vote, and how old they should be: everyone who votes on
the other categories. If they haven't read any of the books nominated,
maybe they will go out and find them. They won't be sorry.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 88 20:14:06 GMT
From: eilian@eddie.mit.edu (Adina Adler)
Subject: Re: Proposed Best Juvenile one-shot 1989 Hugo Category

Karen Williams writes:
>One very easy way to determine if a book is a juvenile or not is to use
>the method the libraries and publishers use; i.e., if a library or
>publisher classifies a book as a juvenile, then it's a juvenile.

Unfortunately, books don't always have the same publisher for hardcover and
paperback versions, and then get classified differently.  Robin McKinley's
_The Blue Sword_ and _The Hero and the Crown_ were considered to be
juvenile in hardcover and whatever the bookstore felt like in paperback.
(I'm basing this on the fact that I only saw the hardcovers in children's
sections and I've seen the paperbacks in both the children's and sf
sections in different stores.)  This happens to other authors as well.  I
noticed LeGuin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_ in the children's section of a
library once, probably on the theory that anyone who wrote the Earthsea
trilogy must be a children's author.  I found Kipling's _Puck of Pook's
Hill_ among the children's books at Wordsworth recently, and its sequel,
_Rewards and Fairies_ in the adult section, because it wasn't a Puffin book
(Puffin is the children's division of Penguin, I think).  I pointed out
this discrepancy to someone working there, so it may have been fixed.
Lately I've been noticing classics like _Pride and Prejudice_ and
_Wuthering Heights_ in the children's sections of bookstores.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, publishers are not always the best
judges of age groups in literature, and bookstores tend to go by the
publisher's classification unless someone working there recognizes the book
and moves it.

Look, I love all of Robin McKinley's books, and I wish she'd write more,
and I'm very happy that she won the Newberry award for _The Hero and the
Crown_.  But I'm not convinced that either that book or _The Blue Sword_
was a juvenile, mostly because neither had the simplistic tone that one
usually sees in children's literature.  Madeleine (sp?)  L'Engle once spoke
of the difficulties she had in getting _A Wrinkle in Time_ published.
Various publishers said that it was too scary to be a children's book and
too simple for adults.  One publisher asked, "But who is this book *for*?",
and she replied, "People".  I agree.  But _A Wrinkle in Time_ is considered
to be a children's book by publishers and bookstores.

Considering the length at which I felt I needed ;) to flame, I have a
feeling that a Juvenile Book Hugo, while a nice idea, would produce even
more of the bad feelings currently happening over the Other Categories Hugo
and _Watchmen_.

Adina Adler
eilian@eddie.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 06:46:37 GMT
From: dales@teksce.sce.tek.com (Dale Snell)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

eric@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Eric Novikoff) writes:
>This theme is also covered in Clifford Simak's "Way Station", in which the
>bodies somehow die after the "soul" is transported out, and the poor human
>caretaker has to dispose of the mess.  Uck.  Good book, though.

     The bodies were dumped into acid vats.  I don't know if they were
still conscious or not...

     Simak also touched on one of the other aspects of this discussion in
_The_Goblin_Reservation_, that of duplicate bodies.  In the beginning of
the story, the main character is transported from a planet in another
system to earth.  Except that he winds up being on some place *way* out of
line.  When he finally gets home, he finds that all his friends are in
mourning, and that he doesn't officially exist.  It seems that he'd been
murdered...  The police even had the corpse...  The folks on the planet
he'd just come from had duplicated his pattern during transmission...

Dale D. Snell
dales@teksce.SCE.TEK.COM
...!tektronix!tekgen!teksce!dales

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 15:40:34 GMT
From: ddb@ns.ns.com (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication of bodies

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
> Would you be surprised if your matter transmitter would transmit
> inanimate and animal subjects well, but that all humans who went through
> arrived as unintelligent animals?  The human part, the soul, not being
> transmitted.

  I wouldn't be terribly surprised if early MT's didn't transmit living
organisms well.  However, I'd be surprised if the problems weren't
eventually worked out, and I'd be surprised if humans were particularly
more difficult to transmit than other mammals.

David Dyer-Bennet
...!{rutgers!dayton
amdahl!ems
uunet!rosevax}!umn-cs!ns!ddb
ddb@viper.Lynx.MN.Org
...{amdahl,hpda}!bungia!viper!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 88 14:34:20 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

nelson_p@apollo.UUCP (Peter Nelson) writes:
>Matter transfer devices such as Star Trek's transporter beam have been
>popular topics in science fiction for years.  Different authors have
>offered different theories about how these devices work but in general
>they seem to include:
[summary removed]

For a good story examining the possible engineering and social implications
of a matter transporter, see George O. Smith's _Venus_Equilateral_.  It's
pure space opera of the same type as Doc Smith's work, but it is one of the
few I've seen which addresses the social issues which arise when the
encoded signal for matter transport can be recorded and replayed multiple
times.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 88 01:35:21 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: another transmat "theory"

Probably the two most popular theories about how matter transmitters work
are

1) Scanning/Dissasembling/Reassembling, where the Dis/Re-assembling is
   based on some sort of matter/energy/matter conversion.

2) Pushing matter through some sort of space warp.

At the risk of life and limb, I propose another theory.

3) Matter has both a particle and a wave nature.  Matter transmitters
   produce their effect by manipulating matter-waves rather than
   matter-particles.  You could think of one as a sort of matter-waveguide.

Apologies in advance for those that think this theory too vague.  If I've
read this one somewhere in decades of reading SF, then I apologize for
stating it as my own.

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.ray.com
{decuac,gatech,necntc,sun,uiucdcs,ukma}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 88 18:45:23 GMT
From: gordan@maccs.mcmaster.ca (gordan)
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication of bodies

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>4) One for Stephen King, or possibly Lovecraft:  Transmission looks OK,
>   but later we find out something's very wrong.  The person's soul or
>   spirit (there's a remark by Paul in the N.T. that seems to imply a
>   distinction) is left at the transmitter, and some *THING* has replaced
>   it at the receiver end.  Now *IT* has a body with which *IT* can
>   directly affect our world -- or *THEY* have lots of bodies, and they're
>   getting more all the time, as transporters become more and more
>   popular.

Stephen King did in fact write a short story called "The Jaunt" which is
very much in this vein.  One of his few excursions into straight science
fiction, although the horror certainly isn't lacking.

Gordan Palameta
uunet!mnetor!maccs!gordan

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 88 21:19:31 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@ucsd.uucp (Jim )
Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication of bodies

I recommend Algis Budry's "Rogue Moon" as a good story which has some
mention of many of the speculations which have been covered under this
subject, including:

   Duplicate humans with shared "souls",
   What to do with the duplicate after it has served its purpose,
   Saving the information for possible later regeneration.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 26 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 232

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Card (2 msgs) & Cook (2 msgs) &
                          Engdahl (7 msgs) & Freisner (4 msgs) &
                          Hogan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 88 04:54:14 GMT
From: phri!dasys1!wlinden@nyu.edu
Subject: Card at Cumorah

Today's New York Times carried a story about a new version of the annual
Mormon scriptural pageant at the site of Hill Cumorah. It mentioned that in
an effort to jazz up the event, there was a new script by Orson Scott Card,
the well-known SF writer.  Does anyone have more detail on the story behind
this?

Will Linden                          
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 88 15:22:58 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Card at Cumorah

wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (Will Linden) writes:
>Today's New York Times carried a story about a new version of the annual
>Mormon scriptural pageant at the site of Hill Cumorah. It mentioned that
>in an effort to jazz up the event, there was a new script by Orson Scott
>Card, the well-known SF writer.  Does anyone have more detail on the story
>behind this?

By an odd coincidence, I visited Hill Cumorah the week before the pageant
(which was last week, by the way), and saw some of the preparations.

The official pamphlet credits Orson Scott Card prominently with the script,
and in conversation with a resident Elder, I gathered that this was an
almost complete rewrite.  In addition, there had been extensive changes in
the staging, including better props and lighting, and more live action as
distinct from static mass chorus work.

The pageant itself is a dramatisation of parts of the Book of Mormon, and
some of the props were pretty impressive, including city walls with vaguely
Mayan glyph designs, King Noah's polystyrene throne, and so on.  I was very
sorry to have arrived a week too early; by all the evidence it was going to
be a great spectacle.

(Should it matter, I'm not a Mormon)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 88 22:29:54 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: "The Dragon Never Sleeps" is out.

   "He lies ever upon his hoard, his heart jealous and mean.
   Never believe he has nodded because his eyes have closed.
   The dragon never sleeps."
      - Kez Maefele speaking to the Dire Radiant

That's the dedication page of the novel Glen Cook described 5 years ago as
his Magnum Opus.  It is out, Popular Library's Questar imprint.  If haven't
finished this by tommorrow then you are behind.  If this doesn't win the
Hugo next year then there *is* something fundamentally wrong with the
universe.  I said that when I first read "24 Views of Mt.  Fuji, by
Hokusai".  I'm saying it again.  I'll write a serious review after I get
some sleep...

...!ukma!ukecc!vnend      

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 88 15:06:43 GMT
From: stuart@cs.rochester.edu (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: "The Dragon Never Sleeps" is out.

>If this doesn't win the Hugo next year then there *is* something
>fundamentally wrong with the universe.

I would not go *that* far, but I DO recommend this book.  (Please ignore
the Questar imprint and the cover blurbs, which remind me of the worst of
Laser Books.)

I have been a fan of Glen Cook for almost 10 years.  I think I've read
everything he's written except the Darkwar Trilogy (also with stupid
Questar covers, which turned me off), and there have been only one or two
sour notes in about 20 books and several short stories.  I can't decide if
Passage of Arms, which is an outstanding homage to the submarine genre by
the way, or The Dragon Never Sleeps, is probably the best *single* book of
his I've read.  (Many of his other books come in twos and threes.)

Anyway, this book is recommended, but it would be a little ironic if it
*did* win a Hugo, because I think Cook's written outstanding stuff, some of
it better than TDNS, for a long time without that level of recognition.
Glen Cook is an excellent writer, whose skills are not tied to the worlds
science fiction and fantasy.

Stu Friedberg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 15:50:32 GMT
From: steele@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele)
Subject: Juveniles

Has anyone out there read anything by Sylvia Louise Engdahl?  She wrote a
trilogy, the title of which I do not remember, which I thought was
wonderful and which nobody else seemed to have heard of.

Mark Foskey 

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 19:20:41 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Juvenile (Sylvia Louise Engdahl)

steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) writes:
>Has anyone out there read anything by Sylvia Louise Engdahl?  She wrote a
>trilogy, the title of which I do not remember, which I thought was
>wonderful and which nobody else seemed to have heard of.

   Yes!  I remember them, but I didn't know there were three.  They dealt
with a spacefaring civilization encountering "primitive" societies for some
reason, right?  I remember the first book had a medieval sort of society,
and the second was one uncomfortably like our own ...  (Titles ... God, I'm
so bad with titles.  _Enchantress From the Stars_ or something like that
was the first one?  I remember looking for the second for ages, knowing
only that the title had something to do with darkness or pain, and I found
it once, but I've totally forgotten the title now.  Third?  What third?
I'd also like to find these books again ... Hopefully, this will spark
somebody's memory a little.)

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 20:26:12 GMT
From: maria@cfa250.harvard.edu (Maria Fonseca x57258)
Subject: Re: Juveniles

steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) writes:
> Has anyone out there read anything by Sylvia Louise Engdahl?  She wrote a
> trilogy, the title of which I do not remember, which I thought was
> wonderful and which nobody else seemed to have heard of.

I think one of the books was City Beyond Tomorrow.  All I remember about it
was some kind of super-duper computerized intelligence test.  Engdahl also
wrote a wonderful book called Enchantress to the Stars that was sort of
like Star Trek with a girl heroine and one about moving to Mars whose title
began with the word "Journey."  Most of her books that I've seen were
published as juveniles, which may explain why nobody's ever heard of them.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 21:07:01 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Juveniles

steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) writes:
>Has anyone out there read anything by Sylvia Louise Engdahl?  She wrote a
>trilogy, the title of which I do not remember, which I thought was
>wonderful and which nobody else seemed to have heard of.

I remember reading her books. One of her books was called "Enchantress From
the Stars," and was about a woman whose spaceship crashed on a primitive
planet, and she was treated as an enchantress. My favorite of her books
(and this may be the first of a trilogy) dealt with a priest/religion
controlled society and a young man who believes in science, and becomes a
heretic. (I don't remember the title of this book, but it had the word
"star" in the title.) The priests, of course, can't let the young man run
around denouncing them, so they capture him in order to make him recant.
What the young man learns about the religion, and the ideas brought up
about religion in general, are fascinating. (And yes, this is a children's
book.)

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 88 03:39:00 GMT
From: eilian@eddie.mit.edu (Adina Adler)
Subject: Re: Juvenile (Sylvia Louise Engdahl)

susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman) writes:
>Yes!  I remember them, but I didn't know there were three.  They dealt
>with a spacefaring civilization encountering "primitive" societies for
>some reason, right?  I remember the first book had a medieval sort of
>society, and the second was one uncomfortably like our own ...

Ok, there are two different series here getting confused.  The one with
three books was about a society on a metal-poor planet, and the first two
books were _This Star Shall Abide_ and _Beyond the Tomorrow Mountains_ (I
don't remember the title of the third).

The other series was about people of an interstellar society and the
Service that was devoted to exploring other cultures.  The main character
was a woman named Elana, and the two books were _Enchantress from the
Stars_ and _The Far Side of Evil_.

There's also an independent book called _Journey Between Worlds_ about a
young woman who visits Mars during the early years of its settlement, and
the consequences of her stay being prolonged.

I like all of these, but I would tend to classify them as juveniles because
I read two of them in college and the others in high school, and I like the
ones I read earlier better.  They're very good juveniles.

Spoiler coming...

The third book of the trilogy was something of a crossover.  A member of
the Service (not Elana) came to that planet and, of course, became a
heretic and then a Scholar.  She also helped Noren find his faith.

Adina Adler
eilian@eddie.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 88 14:48:30 GMT
From: rodgin@hpccc.hp.com (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: Re: Juveniles

The books I have read by this author are:

Enchantress from the Stars
The Far Side of Evil         

This Star Shall Abide
Beyond the Tomorrow Mountains
The Doors of the Universe
   (this one is a trilogy; the last book is fairly difficult to find)

Journey Between Worlds 
   (I think this is the title; it is not related to either of the
    above sets of books).


These books are always found in the juvenile section of libraries, and I
somehow doubt that they are in print now.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 88 14:13:23 GMT
From: EHT@psuvm.bitnet (P. Baughman)
Subject: Re: Juvenile (Sylvia Louise Engdahl)

I read _This Star Shall Abide_ and _Beyond the Tomorrow Mountains_ plus
_Enchantress From the Stars_ and _The Far Side of Evil_ and loved all of
them.  I never could find the third in the trilogy.  Thanks for reminding
me of these books, I'll have to re-read them to see if they're as good as I
remember them to be.

   Now, as to this subject of juveniles....  What's wrong with them?  A lot
of my most favorite books are classed as "juvenile", which doesn't make me
like them any less.  Perhaps I'm wrong but it sounds like you're saying
"adults" shouldn't like and/or read "juvenile" novels.  To which I say "ACK
PHFFFFPT BARF"!  I will always read (and re-read) anything that I like, be
it classed as juvenile, adult, hogspittle, or what have you.  Literature (I
know, some don't consider SF as "literature") should be read based on
whether it is good ( strictly personal preference), not whether it is good
"juvenile" or good "adult" (or good "hogspittle" :-).

   I now await your "Flaming" replies.  :-)

Paul Baughman
511-A West Drive
Boalsburg, PA   16827
(814) 466-6268
EHT@PSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 05:58:00 GMT
From: bradley!bucc2!railfan@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Druids Blood

Has anyone read a book titled "Druids Blood"?  It is a recent release by an
author (female) whose name escapes me at the moment.

This is something of a Sherlock Holmes pastiche, but set in an alternate
reality where Rome did not conquer Britain because of a magical wall
erected by the Druids.  Technological progress continues in the outside
world but ceases in the British isles where druidical sorcery remains the
all-encompassing mode of power.

Weston (the Watson character) tells the story, and seems to have been
writing stories for the Strand (but he's NOT Conan Doyle...HE turns up
later) about the Holmes character (Brithric Donne).

Imagine a Victorian England that harks back to the Bronze Age...with Queen
Victoria the highest mage in the land (and apparently a damn good bed
partner, too).  The whole thing is just cock-eyed enough to be a darn fine
read, and I recommend it.

So it's not great literature...it's fun!

kp

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 88 13:17:43 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: Druids Blood

railfan@bucc2.UUCP writes:
>Has anyone read a book titled "Druids Blood"?  It is a recent release by
>an author (female) whose name escapes me at the moment.
>
> ..deleted..
>
>So it's not great literature...it's fun!

The author is Esther Freisner.  Other recent releases of hers are 'Elf
Defense' (VERY enjoyable, especially for those of us living in a coastal
area used to hordes of tourists; "We have managed through floods,
nor'easters, and heaven help us, the Summer People; we can weather Elves"),
and 'Harlot's Ruse'.  Not exactly heavy reading, but definitely fun.

Bob Halloran
19 Culver Ct, 
Old Bridge NJ 08857
UUCP: {att, rutgers}!mtune!rkh
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 88 17:23:46 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: DRUID'S BLOOD by Esther M. Friesner

		    DRUID'S BLOOD by Esther M. Friesner
			Signet, 1988, 0-451-15408-8
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     As the cover indicates, this is a Sherlock Holmes alternate history
novel.  Well of course any novel which has Sherlock Holmes is an alternate
history from ours, but you know what I mean.  Actually, this novel doesn't
have Sherlock Holmes; it has Brihtric Donne, and Dr. John H. Weston as his
companion.  Britain is a kingdom where magic--mainly Druidic magic--rules,
and which has been isolated from the rest of the world by powerful spells.
Victoria is queen by virtue of her powers; she's also very beautiful and
very sexual.  In our universe, however, she's also descended from James I
through the German line.  This is clearly impossible in this Druidic world,
so where did she come from?  And why do people have Christian names like
John?  Oscar Wilde is a character in this novel, as is H. G. Wells (his
time machine really works!), as is Charles Dickens--how does this alternate
world manage to come up with all the same people as ours, doing basically
the same things (all right, so Dickens's novel is called A YULETIDE CAROL,
but you get my drift)?  Oh, well, I suppose if the world were different
enough to be logical, it would be just another wizardry novel instead of a
Sherlock Holmes alternate history novel.

     This quibble aside, how is the book?  Well, there are two halves to
this question.  First, how is it as a Sherlock Holmes novel?  Holmes, or
rather Donne, is a bit too scientific for my tastes--though in this case,
it's a knowledge of magic rather than science that he uses.  He doesn't
make a lot a deductions based on observation, but rather decides what is
possible and what isn't based on his knowledge of the laws of magic.
Though he occupies a similar niche in his Victorian society that Holmes
occupied in ours, he doesn't fill it in at all the same way.  It's not
unlike finding Martin Hewett has taken up lodgings at 221B Baker Street.

     Second, how is the novel as an alternate history novel?  Well, as I
observed, there seem to be a lot of unlikely characters in an England
isolated from the rest of the world.  The history seems to have been molded
to be similar to ours whether or not that makes sense.

     Oddly enough, however, taken as a whole the point is reasonably
enjoyable.  If one indulges in the "willing suspension of disbelief" that
is supposed to be the stock in trade of a science fiction reader, one can
find the story as almost as enthralling as a real Holmes story.  The
magical background in this, as in THE WIZARD OF 4TH STREET, works well to
increase the enjoyment.  Though my objective judgement says this book had
problems, my subjective judgement says that I enjoyed it.  So my
recommendation is to give it the benefit of the doubt and read it.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA:	ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 88 13:55:09 GMT
From: linus!dee@harvard.harvard.edu (David E. Emery)
Subject: Re: DRUID'S BLOOD by Esther M. Friesner

My wife and I just finished Druid's Blood, and we were upset at the
portrayal of Queen Victoria as a wimpy Bimbo.  The characterization of
Holmes wasn't too bad, and Ada Lovelace shows up, but I don't think this is
one of the author's better efforts.

dave emery
emery@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 05:08:15 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (The Math Hacker)
Subject: James P. Hogan's New Book

Has anyone seen the new book out by James P. Hogan?

It's paperback, and looks to be about 300 pages long.  It also looks to be
more on the lines of his near-future/time-travel.  If you haven't guessed
it, I don't remember the title.  But the fact that it is by Hogan makes it
worth finding out about.

Thanks for any info.

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU
...!ucbvax!voder!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 26 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 233

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Hawke & Martin & Niven (3 msgs) &
                         Robinson & Simak & Spinrad & 
                         Stapledon & Yarbro

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 17:16:17 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE WIZARD OF 4TH STREET by Simon Hawke

		  THE WIZARD OF 4TH STREET by Simon Hawke
		       Questar, 1987, 0-445-20842-2
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I was looking for further books in Hawke's "Time Wars" series when I
ran across this novel.  Normally wizards and magic in New York City would
not be a combination that would attract me, but this seemed different.  And
it was.  I mean, where else can you find an Arthurian, post-holocaust,
heist novel?

     I suppose you're asking how one can have an Arthurian, post-holocaust
novel (not even counting the heist part).  Well, it seems that after it all
fell apart (due to "the abuse of the ecosystem"), Merlin was rescued out of
his tree and taught the world a better way, relying on magic rather than
technology.  The result, of course, is the same, except that taxis run on
levitation and impulsion spells rather than gasoline, and the police use
avoidance spells instead of cordoning off an area with physical barricades.
Wyrdrune, a student adept, tries to steal some "magic stones" during an
auction.  Unfortunately, another, more experienced, thief named Kira is
trying to steal the same stones at the same time, and the two of them have
to join forces as the police (and others) attempt to retrieve the stones.
Naturally, since the stones are magic, more than money is involved...a lot
more.

     Other than the rather heavy-handed ecological message (since we
*don't* have levitation and impulsion spells, it's rather pointless to
suggest those as a cure for the pollution caused by internal combustion
engine), THE WIZARD OF 4TH STREET was, like Hawke's other novels, an
enjoyable summer read--nothing remarkable, but a pleasant enough way to
while away the hours at the beach, where the cancer you'll get from the sun
is totally natural and not attributable to any pollution.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 88 20:25:47 GMT
From: sequent!petebob@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Pete Apple)
Subject: Wild Cards

New from Archon 12:

Book V is already "in the can" as they say, and is due out in Oct-Nov
sometime.

Book V deals with the Mafia War that was starting in previous books.  John
J. Miller's story deals with the Yeoman, and his attempt infiltrate the
joker gangs that are forming.  A few new characters were introduced
including DeadHead, who had an interesting taste in culinary delights..
(His story dealt with Yoeman helping to break into a morgue so that
DeadHead might.. ;-)

John also said there had been talk of Epic buying the rights to publish
comics dealing with the Wild Cards characters.  There was also talk about
Wild Cards novels, and John had a bid in to write one dealing with Yoeman
and Wraith.

Another major plot running through book V is a new ace who's somewhat of a
Typhoid Mary type.  (No, not the one from Daredevil, the original one.)  He
has the unique power of giving people the Wild Card virus.  Again.  So
people that had it originally can get it again.  Aces that meet this guy
can get the Wild Card, and turn into Jokers, etc, etc..  should be
interesting.  Gimili ran into him, and all they found left was his skin.
Stephen was nice enough to leave us hanging on his final fate. (damn)

Stephen Leigh's story dealt again with Senator Hartmann (aka Puppetman).
The syrian girl from the last book, (You remember, the one that killed her
brother?) is in New York, and she has proof that Senator Hartmann is an
Ace.  Gimili is back in New York, but unfortunately runs into the second
major plot of the book (Typhoid).  Hartmann announces he's running for Pres
in '88, and has Mack the Knife secretly killing off anyone that gets in the
way.

In more general info, book VI is planned, and will deal with the '88
election, and with a growing Evangelistic anti-Joker movement.  The main
canidates will be Senator Hartmann for the Democratic ticket, and the
Reverand Bartnett will be running for Pres too.  (Bartnett is the leader of
the anti-Joker movement, if you hadn't guessed.)

Books 7,8,9 are in negotiation at the moment, depending on sales.  The main
idea for them has already decided, and John Miller told me that Chris
Claremont had come up with it.  Also, he said that Bill Wu had been talked
to about story ideas and possible writing.  According to Miller, George R.
R. Martin had ideas for books up to Wild Cards XXI in his head.
(Jeeeeeezzzz).

Pete_Bob
sequent!petebob

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 18:54:47 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven's Rammer (SPOILER)

nancy@lloyd.camex.uucp (Nancy Gray) writes:
> I just finished reading "Rammer" in Larry Niven's _A Hole in Space_.  The
> question was raised in the story of where the RNA for RNA training came
> from, but I don't recall its being answered.  I assumed it came from
> other corpsicles, but that doesn't explain how they got the knowledge in
> the first place.  Any ideas?  ...

In neither "Rammer" or "A World Out of Time", did they talk about where the
RNA came from.  But he didn't go back.

At one point Pierce said "Thirty years' labor generally earns a man his
citizenship.  That gets him a right to work, which gets him a guaranteed 
base income he can use to buy education shots and tapes."

Either they grind up retirees, or there is another way to create the
training RNA.

The whole RNA memory concept is a fallacy derived from studies with
flatworms, which were discredited.  Does anyone have a reference to
the original research?  

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 02:48:56 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven's Rammer (SPOILER)

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) writes:
> The whole RNA memory concept is a fallacy derived from studies with
> flatworms, which were discredited.  Does anyone have a reference to the
> original research?

The whole RNA memory concept is a plausible term applied to a science-
fiction concept. He could have called it "education pills", but that
plausible term was out of date by then.

Today you'd want to invoke "nanotechnology" instead.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 88 20:23:12 GMT
From: gersh@aplvax.jhuapl.edu (John R. Gersh)
Subject: Re: Larry Niven's Rammer

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>The whole RNA memory concept is a plausible term applied to a science-
>fiction concept. He could have called it "education pills", but that
>plausible term was out of date by then.

Niven did call it that or something very close to it, in "The Fourth
Profession." Pills with RNA for particular skills or knowledge were an item
of interstellar trade.

John Gersh

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 88 23:58:00 GMT
From: bradley!frodo@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: _Time_Pressure_by Spider Robinson

Has anyone out there read Spider Robinson's latest novel??  It's called
_Time_Pressure_, and if you like his work in general, you'll probably love
this book.  I was skeptical at first, and I've been burned out on reading
recently (I read 4 books in 3 weeks just a month ago, and that takes its
toll....), but for the last two days I haven't been able to put it down,
and I just finished it.

Ok, so I like run-on sentences.....

Is there any speculation about the real possibilities of his premise?

**SPOILER**

I.e. the premise that a traveler from a time in our not so distant future
is coming back to take RNA samples (presumably) of us all so that we can
join in with the eventual "Mind" Conciousness that humanity will develop
into?

I thought it was interesting how, considering the Epilogue that it is all
guaranteed true, he met his wife on the North Mountain, etc.

Does anyone out there have any corroboration or concrete contradiction of
the events that are supposed to parallel his life?  (actually, since I
suppose Spider is roughly equivalent to "Snaker", it would be difficult in
the first place to pinpoint who the main character is supposed to be, much
less whether any of this has any real possibility of being true.....)

I'd love to be gullible enough to believe that sort of thing, but on the
other hand, I am after all one of those sf readers that he makes such a
point of describing as highly skeptical.......

yeah right.

comments??

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 88 17:38:45 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: HIGHWAY TO ETERNITY by Clifford D. Simak

		 HIGHWAY OF ETERNITY by Clifford D. Simak
		   Del Rey, 1988 (1986c), 0-345-32497-8
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is one of Simak's last books before he died and an excellent
example of why science fiction has suffered a great loss.  Simak wrote old-
fashioned science fiction.  He never got caught up in New Wave, or
cyberpunk, or metaphysical ramblings.  The Science Fiction Book Club never
had to put warnings about sex or language on his books. He just told good
stories and somehow managed to entertain without resorting to any gimmicks.

     HIGHWAY TO ETERNITY is about time travel and aliens and monsters and
all the stuff science fiction used to be.  Jay Corcoran and Tom Boone
travel back in time and discover refugees from the far future, escaping
from the "alien Infinites" and the monster they have unleased.  Simak draws
a limited number of characters, but draws them well and keeps the reader
interested.  The plot moves along without being contrived.  Recommended,
but then the same is true of just about any Simak novel.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 00:53:44 GMT
From: gethen!abostick@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Alan Bostick)
Subject: LITTLE HEROES by Norman Spinrad (review)

Well, I've finished Norman Spinrad's LITTLE HEROES, available in paperback
from Bantam/Spectra. 

* WARNING -- SPOILERS CONTAINED IN THIS REVIEW! *

My basic verdict is that I liked it; it is a good book (although not a
Great book).  The book has the same larger-than-life, comic book feel to it
that (say) ATLAS SHRUGGED has.  (This should not be construed as a put-down
of either LITTLE HEROES, ATLAS SHRUGGED, or comic books.)  The book is
definitely what I written with what I think of as the Cyberpunk sensibility
- -- technology in the streets, circumstances in the highest levels of
society tied together with those in the lowest, a sordid, gritty view of
future society, etc.  It contains a lot of sex 'n drugs 'n rock&roll.

It also is an incredibly romantic book, in the technical sense (romanticism
as an artistic and literary movement, not romance as in love story).  This
isn't surprising, as it is about rock&roll music; and rock itself is
incredibly romantic, as is much of sf.  To illustrate what I mean, Jim
Morrison is a textbook example of a romantic hero, as is (say) Jerry
Cornelius.  Spinrad is a very romantic writer in general, peopling his work
with lots of romantic, Byronic heroes, and this book is almost a canonical
example.

The book is dedicated to the proposition that, whether or not Rock Will
Never Die (it is almost dead when the story opens), it is still true that
Rock Can Change The World, in the best Sixties tradition.

If you like Spinrad's work in general, you will like LITTLE HEROES.  It is
possibly his best work since BUG JACK BARRON.  I should also point out that
if you DON'T like Spinrad's work, I doubt very much that you will like this
one.  It has a lot of Spinrad's most egregious flaws as a writer and as a
examiner of the human condition.

Where Spinrad falls flat on his face the most is where he treats sex,
sexuality, and women.  This is par for the course for Spinrad.  Here he is
almost as silly as he was in THE VOID-CAPTAIN'S TAIL -- oops, that's TALE,
and one of the most appropriate typos I've made all month.  ("Did the ship
move for you, too?")  Here, as always, Spinrad displays an adolescent
male's sexual sensibility, subject to the tyranny of Hollywood's and
PLAYBOY's view of what constitutes physical attractiveness, and totally
overlooking the connection between sex and parenthood.  While Spinrad's
vision of sex is congruent with my own and that of just about any male
brought up in contemporary American culture, his views of sex appear to end
where mine have just barely begun.

The most flagrant example of this is his apparent assumption that there is
an absolute standard for female attractiveness, that while personal taste
might vary a small amount, the appeal of beautiful women is universal, a
beautiful woman is beautiful in every man's eyes, and one who is not
beautiful is beautiful in the eyes of none.  To carry this even further,
Spinrad takes it as axiomatic that a fat woman is an ugly, disgusting
woman.  In fact, the plot hinges at several critical places on the
assumption that making love to a fat woman is about the most disgusting
thing a man can do that doesn't involve homosexuality.  At one point a
major character, feeling ill from having drunk and snorted too much at a
party, is made to vomit by the experience of being kissed by a fat, and
therefore disgustingly ugly, woman.  Late in the book the same character,
at a climactic (*sorry!*) moment, proves the essential heroic nobility of
his soul by making love to this same woman.

One episode along these lines was not laughably silly like the others were
to me, but made me rather angry when I read it.  While under the influence
of the Zap, a piece of hardware that simulates psychedelic experience by
stimulating the "dream centers" of the brain, a character believes himself
to be making love to the woman of his dreams.  When the device is shut off,
he finds that he has been instead, getting it on with a filthy, fat woman,
described in the most revolting terms possible, but also, to me at least,
recognizable as a certain prominent editor and critic with whom Spinrad has
been feuding about just these issues of sex and beauty in his work.  I read
this passage several times over, trying to make up my mind whether the
resemblance was intentional or not.  If it was intentional, it was at least
written in a way which leaves the matter open to doubt, and I suppose that
I ought to give Spinrad the benefit of this doubt.  But if it was
intentional, it is a cheap shot indeed.  I was angered by it as a result of
my close friendship with the editor and critic.  I must hasten to emphasize
that this is nothing more than my own perception of the episode, and not
necessarily a reflection of the reality of Spinrad's intentions.

But enough of the sexual politics! you may be saying, What is the book
ABOUT?  Well then, it is about what happens when the dominant company in
the recording industry, concerned that its recordings, made according to
careful demographic and psychographic specifications based on analysis of
the market, are not selling as well as they should.  They are profitable,
but not going platinum.  The company hires Gloriana O'Toole, "The Crazy Old
Lady of Rock and Roll" to head a team of cyberwizard technicians to produce
new music that will be hits.  "Trouble ensues," as the saying goes.  Their
product has a synergistic social effect with the efforts of the Reality
Liberation Front, an anarchist computer collective dedicated to turning
around the country's massive economic problems by sponsoring and
encouraging widespread computer crime by the masses.

It's very much a fun book, despite my very real complaints with it.  Give
it a chance, unless Spinrad has always turned you off before.  The best
parts, in my opinion, are the middle, once the plot has begun to develop
and the events set in motion begin to make their effects felt.

Alan Bostick
ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 13:46:16 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Olaf Stapledon

[Andy Steinberg writes about Stapledon, specifically about enjoying _Star
Maker_ more than _Last and First Men_]

   Once LaFM got going, I enjoyed it just as much as SM.  The problem with
the book was that it did take so long to get going.

   Personally, my favorite Stapledon book is _Sirius_, a novel about a dog
with human intelligence.  He has a wonderful perspective on humanity.  Of
course, it doesn't have the amazing scope of LaFM or SM.

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 19:50:41 GMT
From: rodgin@hpccc.hp.com (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: Saint-Germain book titles?

I have recently gotten hooked on the books about the vampire Saint-Germain
by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, but unfortuately I don't know any titles other
than the ones I have stumbled across (Hotel Transylvania, The Palace).
Could someone kindly provide me with a complete list?

Also, didn't I read on the net a few months ago about a book about a female
vampire (Olivia?)

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 26 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 234

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - Matter Transfer (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 88 16:45:38 GMT
From: att!m10ux!rgr@iuvax.uucp (Duke Robillard)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

Hey, I just thought of something.  A matter transmiter is a lot like a
sampling music synthesizer.  The sampler records the music and stores its
waveform for later reproduction, just like a matter tranmitter.

This leads to another use for matter transmitter: matter synthesizers.
Just as you can generate a waveform in a music synthesizer without
recording, you should be able to generate a matter description without
scanning anything.  Read in a blueprint, out comes a car.  Cool, huh?  And
if it were cheap, (like ~$1000 for a transmitter) there'd be all this BBS's
around with "patches" people had come up with for creating stuff, just like
you can get drum patches for your DX7 off of rec.music.synth.

(This assumes the transmitter just transmits the info, of course, not the
actual matter.)

Duke Robillard           
AT&T Bell Labs
Murray Hill, NJ
m10ux!rgr@att.UUCP                 
{backbone!}att!m10ux!rgr

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 18:18:06 GMT
From: logajan@ns.ns.com (John Logajan x3118)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

Immediately after a matter 'duplication' of an individual occurs (assuming
he is awake) you will have two individuals with identical backgrounds
except:

The original will say to himself, "Gee this thing didn't do anything to
me."  And the copy will say, "Gee this thing transported me, neato!"  After
that the divergence would continue to increase.  The point is that these
two individuals are just that, separate people.  The original would not
want to be killed!!!!  However if you kill the original just at the point
of divergence, then there is no proveable difference between matter
transfer and matter duplication except a corpse.

John M. Logajan
Network Systems
7600 Boone Ave
Brooklyn Park, MN 55428
{...rutgers!umn-cs, ...amdahl!bungia, ...uunet!rosevax!bungia}!ns!logajan 

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 88 11:23:00 GMT
From: william@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: bug in matter transference

Any kind of matter transference system that used a scanning technique would
probably run into Heisenberg type difficulties.  Remember that every
particle would have to processed, position and momentum, which doesn't look
too possible with current state of QM.  But what kind of errors are we
worrying about here?  The body is not as perfect a unified entity in its
material form as people seem to be thinking.  We are constantly dealing
with background radiation, cell mutation, DNA breakup, and bits being
bitten and broken off, and it may be possible for the body to handle a fair
degree of localised transference errors.  Perhaps the key to transmission
perfection would simply be improvements in the medical repair.

Perhaps particle transmission is the wrong way to look at the problem.  It
should be far easier to do a cellular analysis of the body - position,
type, momentum, chemical densities, charge densities, connectivity - and
regenerate the same body in the same state.  This would restrict the
randomness of the system immensely because each working cell should have a
fairly limited working range for those parameters.  The brain would
probably be the most difficult part to regenerate as the charge densities
etc are likely to be fairly critical.  But it doesn't bother me that over
the next few weeks most of my body cells will be replaced, and most
peoples' states of mind are sufficiently vague that they wouldn't notice
the odd modification.  This sort of system could be used to enhance
longevity because bad cells could be replaced or "corrected".

I suggest that this is the kind of system we might see in the near future,
ie, before 2400 AD.

Have fun,

Bill Witts
CS Dept.
UCL, London, Errrp
william@uk.ac.ucl.cs(UK)
william@cs.ucl.ac.uk(US)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 88 23:19:51 GMT
From: elgar!jack!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.uucp (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

Lissade.Henr@XEROX.COM says:
> While we are on this subject, has anyone taken this idea further into the
>realm of Matter Transfer-Transmuter. For example you need to send someone
>to a planet

Someone in "The Saga of COKOO" (Phonetic spelling) does the whole
transfer/transmute/duplicate bit (all at once) complete with static
recording and recording updates.  Good reading, but a little dated.

Chalker in "The reings of the <something>" series:
   "Lords of the middle dark"
   "Pirates of Thunder"
   "Masks fo the martyrs"

does a whole bit about "you can be transmitted as many times as you like,
but you can only be transmuted once."  He goes into a rather long and
pointless bit about entropy in transmute which strangely does not occur on
transmit; and the whole thing about "myralimum" (or something) which you
need to fuel the transmuters, but which is the only thing the transmuters
can't make, no mantter how much stellar energy they absorb (Which they _do_
do for raw materials etc.) irratated me enough to ruin much of the rest of
the story.  Now if the Myralimum had been "shielding" against the
Transmuter beam, and evaporated slowly under the stress of the beam, that
would have been acceptable and understandable.
   The Myrillam was added in the _second_ book, I think because he needed
to fill a few holes.  This second book introduced the "new" fact that the
transmuter couldn't take a hunk of minerals and raw meat to make a new
liver, but it could take teh mass of a living arm and make viscera of it
durring transmute.
   All in all, technically quite bad, but the story was ok.  I would give
it a 0 on the -4 to 4 scale.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 88 21:17:43 GMT
From: steele@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

logajan@ns.ns.com (John Logajan x3118) writes:
>Immediately after a matter 'duplication' of an individual occurs (assuming
>he is awake) you will have two individuals with identical backgrounds
>except: The original will say to himself, "Gee this thing didn't do
>anything to me."  And the copy will say, "Gee this thing transported me,
>neato!"

Gee, this thing transported me, neato!	:-)

I don't think there's any reason to give either of these presumed
individuals preference over the other one.  If you look at a life as
Pinero's long pink worm, you could make a case that any given slice should
be identified as "the real person", but later slices would disagree.  The
person has to be considered as the continuum, or, if you're temporally
bound, the slice *at your time*.  If the worm bifurcates, it still doesn't
make sense to say one has precedence over the other; there are now two
slices intersected by one time (the same as you could get for time travel),
but they're both the same person and there's no reason to assign precedence
to one or the other.

As to the arguments that memories and personality wouldn't survive transfer
(or cryonics): memories and personality both survive major epileptic fits,
where any electrical patterns in the brain are effectively destroyed and
have to regenerate, and cases of severe hypothermia, where detectable
patterns cease in all but parts of the cerebellum, which definitely doesn't
store personality.  There's a good case for information storage having to
do with the long-term plasticity of neurons, even if it doesn't have to do
with their interconnectivity; there's no reason why this plasticity
couldn't be captured at least as easily as, say, the DNAs that would have
to be transmitted anyway.

Oliver Steele
UNC-CH Linguistics
steele@cs.unc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 88 21:09:14 GMT
From: steele@apple.com (Oliver Steele)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

logajan@ns.ns.com (John Logajan x3118) writes:
>Immediately after a matter 'duplication' of an individual occurs (assuming
>he is awake) you will have two individuals with identical backgrounds
>except: The original will say to himself, "Gee this thing didn't do
>anything to me."  And the copy will say, "Gee this thing transported me,
>neato!"

I think this sort of reductio shows pretty clearly that it's the person who
stays in place who is the original, even if the other is a perfect copy.
"Perfect copy" is more of an ideal than something anyone, I think, assumes
we could get; we really mean "a copy identical, for all intents and
purposes, to the original."  But this criterion of "identical, for all
intents and purposes" applies equally well, with varying constraints to
other objects.  For instance, a Xerox machine makes a "perfect copy" of
many documents (especially those that don't have a high degree of fine
detail because they are already Xerox's); we still wouldn't say that these
copies are "the same document," even if the Xerox machine burned the
originals.  Even if we didn't know how to make copying machines that
*didn't* burn the originals.  The same is true of people, no matter how
perfect the copy.  We don't even have to posit that the person has some
"soul" or "consciousness" which distinguishes him in any way from machines;
the same conditions we apply to pieces of paper leave no doubt for humans,
either.

Oliver Steele
Apple ATG
steele@apple.apple.com

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 88 05:30:07 GMT
From: leonard@agora.hf.intel.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: another transmat "theory"

gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Gregory M. Paris) writes:
>Probably the two most popular theories about how matter transmitters work
>are:
>1) Scanning/Dissasembling/Reassembling, where the Dis/Re-assembling is
>based on some sort of matter/energy/matter conversion.
>
>2) Pushing matter through some sort of space warp.
>
>At the risk of life and limb, I propose another theory.
>3) Matter has both a particle and a wave nature.  Matter transmitters
>produce their effect by manipulating matter-waves rather than
>matter-particles.  You could think of one as a sort of matter-waveguide.

I don't think this has ever been used in a story. I do seem to recall
getting flamed by a friend for suggesting that matter transmission could
work like this:
 
   There is a finite (but small) probability of any of the particles that
compose "you" being at an arbtrary distance from your current location.
(wave function?). So "all" you need to do is find a way to influence this
probability...
 
   On second thought, I see that this is a variiant on the Niven transfer
booth technology. Ah well...

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 88 19:36:38 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: another transmat "theory"

leonard@.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>I don't think this has ever been used in a story. I do seem to recall
>getting flamed by a friend for suggesting that matter transmission could
>work like this:
>
>There is a finite (but small) probability of any of the particles that
>compose "you" being at an arbtrary distance from your current location.
>(wave function?). So "all" you need to do is find a way to influence this
>probability...

   This reminds me of a missile defense system proposed back in the
sixties.  The idea was to use the Heisenberg uncertainty principle by
measuring the velocity of an incoming missile so precisely that the
uncertainty in its position was greater than three thousand miles.

   The same principle could be adopted for interstellar travel; simply
increase the precision of measurement.  The only problem with the method is
that the destination is arbitrary, i.e it is useful only for those who want
to go far away and don't care where they are going.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 14:22:42 GMT
From: EHT@psuvm.bitnet (P. Baughman)
Subject: Re: another transmat "theory"

Richard Harter writes:
>This reminds me of a missile defense system proposed back in the sixties.
>The idea was to use the Heisenberg uncertainty principle by measuring the
>velocity of an incoming missile so precisely that the uncertainty in its
>position was greater than three thousand miles.
>
>The same principle could be adopted for interstellar travel; simply
>increase the precision of measurement.  The only problem with the method
>is that the destination is arbitrary, i.e it is useful only for those who
>want to go far away and don't care where they are going.

This in turn, reminds me of a novel I read using this principle (_Mission_
_Universe_ , I think, possibly by Gordon Dickson? ).  They installed the
device(s) in a nuclear submarine (airtight hull, ya know :-) and ... well,
I didn't mark this "SPOILER" so I won't continue for those of you who
haven't read it ( I do recommend it, tho ).

I do have a question...would it work?  I mean, just cause WE don't know the
position exactly, does that mean the universe doesn't (if you take the
"universe" to mean all possible physical and/or "meta-physical" laws that
would have a bearing on the position of anything :-)?

Please, don't send long, involved technical explanations filled with
concepts I probably wouldn't understand anyway.  A simple yes/no/I don't
know, but it would be interesting to find out type of answer will suffice
:-).

511-A  West Drive
Boalsburg, PA   16827
(814) 466-6268
eht@psuvm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 88 20:43:54 GMT
From: ns!logajan@umn-cs.uucp (John Logajan x3118)
Subject: Re: Matter Transfer

steele@Apple.COM (Oliver Steele) writes:
> I think this sort of reductio shows pretty clearly that it's the person
> who stays in place who is the original, even if the other is a perfect
> copy.

Clearly there is no doubt about which is the original, but if the original
is killed at the instant of divergence, then there is no MEASUREABLE
difference between human transportation and remote human duplication --
except for the rather unpleasant byproduct being ejected from the sending
unit!  The question might be why kill the original?  But I wasn't
pretending to be dealing with practical matters here!

John M. Logajan
Network Systems
7600 Boone Ave
Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 -
{...rutgers!umn-cs, ...amdahl!bungia, ...uunet!rosevax!bungia}!ns!logajan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 88 02:18:14 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: another transmat "theory"

EHT@PSUVM.BITNET (P. Baughman) writes:
>Richard Harter writes:
>>This reminds me of a missile defense system proposed back in the sixties.
>>The idea was to use the Heisenberg uncertainty principle by measuring the
>>velocity of an incoming missile so precisely that the uncertainty in its
>>position was greater than three thousand miles....
>
>This in turn, reminds me of a novel I read using this principle (_Mission_
>_Universe_ , I think, possibly by Gordon Dickson? ).  They installed the
>device(s) in a nuclear submarine (airtight hull, ya know :-) and ... well,
>I didn't mark this "SPOILER" so I won't continue for those of you who
>haven't read it ( I do recommend it, tho ).

If Gordy wrote this, there are fairly good odds that his source for the
idea was the same as mine -- I got it from Anthony R. Lewis [NESFA founder
and wheel, chairman sundry cons, etc.] who was once an ornament of the MIT
physics department.  Gordy and Tony are friends.  Tony may be the original
author of it, but he probably isn't.  It has the aroma of ancient academic
joke.

It's a joke, son.  Ignoring minor engineering problems (!) it wouldn't work
in principle.  It might make a nice problem for a physics final, though.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 23:10:53 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Matter transfer

This--and your previous article on seeking our own imortality--brings to
mind Niven's book--whose name I've forgotten, but someone will come up
with--in which the key to physical immortality turns out to be (ta! da!):
selective transmission.  Just omit the gludge clogging your arteries and
other toxins.  The protagonist discovers by accident that the technique had
been used.  He just noticed that the two tp booths that linked together
caused him not to feel tired during a chase.  It was later that he found
out the true effect.

Background for title searchers:
   Author: Larry Niven
   Universe: The State
   Setting: Earth, after having been moved to orbit Jupiter
   Synopsis:
   Protagonist, a local criminal brainwiped and injected with 'memory DNA'
from a corpsicle is sent out on a ramspoop ship to seed likely planets for
future use by The State.  Instead, he does a straight run for the core
black-hole, a hairpin turn around it (he doesn't want to slow down--lack of
fuel) and heads back to Earth--some 60,000 years later.  Things have
changed--a lot.  The search for immortality has taken several branches,
includig a group of perpetual children.

This book also answers a question that came up recently about 'corpsicles'
in Niven's work.  You can't revive them, but you can extract things from
the brain to implant personalities in "new" bodies--ones that have had
their own brains wiped.

All in all, not a great book, but it does handle a few of Niven's loose
ends.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708       
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 29 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 235

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Anthony & Friesner & Garrett (2 msgs) &
                      Herbert & May (3 msgs) & Zelazny (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 15:08:08 GMT
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro)
Subject: Being a Green Mother

I was in Waldenbooks the other day and found out that BEING A GREEN MOTHER,
the 5th book in Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series will be
out in softback around the beginning of October.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled netnews...

Rich Carreiro
rlcarr@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 88 22:21:24 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Re: DRUID'S BLOOD (Lord Darcy books)

>If you are interested in detective stories set in a world where magic is
>possible, I highly recommend the Lord Darcy stories by Randall Garrett.
>...  I have not read "Druid's Blood" yet, so I cannot compare it with
>these.

Having read both, I can comment. The Lord Darcy books are clearly homages
to the Holmes stories. The early stories are even written in the same style
of the Holmes stories. >Druid's Blood< is weird.  It is not even a well
constructed mystery. I suspect that most Sherlockians will consider >Blood<
to be an abomination.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 19:43:54 GMT
From: tallman@hc.dspo.gov (Charles David Tallman)
Subject: Re: Lord Darcy books

If you are interested in detective stories set in a world where magic is
possible, I highly recommend the Lord Darcy stories by Randall Garrett.
"Too Many Magicians", "Lord Darcy Investigates", and "Murder and Magic" are
the titles. The first is a novel, the other two are short story
collections.  They are well-crafted, suspenseful, and entertaining.

I have not read "Druid's Blood" yet, so I cannot compare it with these.
But I think too many books have used Holmes and his "contemporaries", so I
will put it low on my reading list.

Dave Tallman
Los Alamos National Laboratory 
E-10/Data Systems
Los Alamos, New Mexico
(505) 667-8495
tallman@hc.dspo.gov
ihnp4!lanl!hc!tallman

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 00:04:27 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Lord Darcy books

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>>If you are interested in detective stories set in a world where magic is
>>possible, I highly recommend the Lord Darcy stories by Randall Garrett.

Randall Garrett was quite a mystery fan.  His favorite series was that of
Nero Wolf.  If you go back and read "Too Many Magicians" pay particular
attention to the Marquis deLondon and his assistant and hobbies.

Mr. Garrett was also very fond of puns--the more obscure the better.
Again, from TMM, you probably recall Tia Einzig.  Try doing variations on
the name of her uncle--Neapeler Einzig--among English and French.
Especially coupled with the name of the island he was living on. . .

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 19:37:28 GMT
From: reed!kyre@nscpdc.nsc.com (Unicorn)
Subject: Re: quote in a quote

frodo@bradley.UUCP writes:
>I can't say for certain, but Frank Herbert has had some books outside of
>Dune, notably _The_Jesus_Incident_, with lots of poetry quotes from
>imaginary writers (in _The_Jesus_Incident_ I believe the "writer" was
>named Kerro Panille).  I'm not sure if he did this in _The_Lazarus_Effect_
>and I don't remember if he did it in _Destination:_Void_ (sequel and
>prequel to _Jesus_ respectively), but that sounds like something that
>could have been in one of these three books.

  I haven't read _The_Lazarus_Effect_ yet, but it was definitely done in
_Desination:_Void_. The quotes are supposedly from the various characters
on- board Ship at a later date or, in the case of _The_Jesus_Incident_,
from the previous book.
  In these quotes, there are even sitations for the source, such as "Raja
Flattery, The Book of Ship" and such. Books within books. Makes me wonder
if Frank Herbert did indeed compile a collection of possible quotes and
saying from which to draw from for his work, especially poetry written by
Bill Ransom, the co-writer of TJI.

Erik Gorka
Reed College, Box 233
Portland OR  97202
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 88 18:34:49 GMT
From: fortune!lambert@hplabs.hp.com (George Lambert)
Subject: Julian May

Anyone out there read Julian May's Intervention yet?  It's an absolutely
fantastic book, as was the Pliocene Saga before that.  This book is a
bridge between the Pliocene Saga and the forthcoming Galactic Milieu
trilogy.

Anyone with news as to when the GM trilogy is expected, please let me know.

For those of you not familiar with the Pliocene Saga, it consistes of:
   The Many Colored Land
   The Golden Torc
   (Title slips my mind for the third book)
   The Adversary.

Powerful story telling in my opinion, and I'd be interested in hearing your
views.

Bye for now,
George

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 04:49:21 GMT
From: cc1@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Julian May

lambert@fortune.UUCP (George Lambert) writes:
>Anyone out there read Julian May's Intervention yet?  It's an absolutely
>fantastic book, as was the Pliocene Saga before that.  This book is a
>bridge between the Pliocene Saga and the forthcoming Galactic Milieu
>trilogy.

Great stuff, just finished reading both the Pliocene Saga and Intervention
within the last two weeks.

>For those of you not familiar with the Pliocene Saga, it consistes of:
>   The Many Colored Land
>   The Golden Torc
>   (Title slips my mind for the third book)

 The Non-born King

>   The Adversary.

These are all out in paperback; as far as I can tell, Intervention is only
in hardback (checked it out from the "new book" section at the public
library.)

>Powerful story telling in my opinion, and I'd be interested in hearing
>your views.

I also agree; Julian May can write some pretty good stuff.

One thing I've noticed about her writing is the huge vocabulary that she
possesses.  So many new words!  I've read few books that have sent me
scampering to the dictionary than these.  (In my mind, this is a positive
attribute of her writing.)

An interesting observation I had about Intervention was that the style was
a bit different from the other books...there was more of "and he was to
become the uncle of Fred the metapsychic barber" type stuff, in which we
were "filled in" on things that were to come much later...  I thought that
this was an appropriate way to write this book, since, after all, we know
how it is going to turn out (in the big picture, anyway).

I'd go on about some of the specific elements of the story that I'd like
to discuss (and also the previous Pliocene books) but there's no SPOILER
warning at the top, so I'll refrain from that for now.

cc1@cs.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 05:05:54 GMT
From: cc1@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Julian May  ***** Spoilers *****

******SPOILERS******

Okay, I assume if you got this far, you've already read the Pliocene Exile
books (the Many-Colored Land, the Golden Torc, the Non-born King, and the
Adversary) and the latest book, Intervention (or you don't mind having it
spoiled for you.)

First off, a Pliocene Exile discussion question...

Who do you think the new Kingmaker (forgot her name) saw as becoming the
King to match Mercy's daughter as Queen?  She was in horror when she
foresaw the intended monarch, and refused to tell Mercy who it was.

My friend's opinion:

He says she saw Aiken as the King.  The horror came from the fact that
Aiken was currently married to the future queen's mother, Mercy.

My opinion:

I think that she saw the son of Nodonn, who was half-Tanu, 3/8 human, and
1/8 Firvulag.  The horror of such a combination and the fact that it was
the son of Mercy's husband (who had been thought dead) was the reason that
Kingmaker refused to tell her Queen.

Your opinion:  (any discussion?)

Okay, now for a little discussion about Intervention...

The funniest part was the aliens (one bunch of them, forgot who) trying to
get the Russians to recognize them as a fleet of UFOs.  Had me laughing for
ten minutes.  But of course it was late at night and when I'm sleepy
enough, ANYTHING will make me laugh for ten minutes.

And how about the irony of the great adversary who betrayed the Unity also
being the one who started it in the first place?  Wow.  Boggles the mind,
eh?  So are the Lylmiks Tanu who have somehow left behind their material
bodies?  And is Unifex just Marc Remillard, or is is Marc and Elizabeth
somehow "joined" together into one entity?  (that's my humble opinion
there) If not, where is Elizabeth anyway?

Plus the "haunting" of the Family Ghost, and his influence on shaping the
destiny of the Galactic Milieu, could be the explanation for the incredible
composition of Group Green.  I mean, from that one group came almost all of
the most powerful metapsychics in the whole Many-Colored Land.  And that
was all supposedly RANDOM?  I doubt it.  I'm certain that Unifex must have
influenced it in some way.

But anyway, enough for this note, respond to what I've said, send me hate
e-mail, whatever, just don't ignore this posting, I spend too much time
typing it in!

cc1@cs.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 18:35:25 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Amber (SPOILERS!!!!!!!!) (if you haven't read Amber#1-5)

ins_ayjk@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Young Je Koh) writes:
>I recently finished reading the Amber series (Courts of Chaos) and have
>some things to clear up.

Ok,...

 
>What exactly happened at the end?  What I mean is, who won the battle
>between Chaos and Amber?  What did Corwin mean when he said that he should
>go visit the Courts of Chaos?

It seemed obvious to me that Amber won, thanks to Benedict's leadership.  I
think that Corwin comments on the fact that so-and-so was leading the
cavalry over the hill, Benedict had done it again and was about to grind
the enemy to dust.  Later on there was a comment, by Fiona I think, that
the Courts defenses had already been broken, and they were about to retreat
into them to avoid the storm.

As for Corwin visiting the Courts, I think he meant just that, that he
thought he should.  It was his grandfathers origin, and perhaps he would
get to see Oberon off into the void.  Not to mention that Dara would be
there, and perhaps something could be worked out.  And last, all the
Amberites *loved* to travel, and the Courts was a place that they hadn't
(mostly) been.

>Also, I'd like to hear your views on the next Amber trilogy (Trumps of
>Doom, Blood of Amber, Signs of Chaos).  Are they as good as the original
>series?  Maybe better??

Better?  Nope.  I think that it is arguable that Roger has never written
anything as strong as the first few pages of "Nine Princes in Amber".  They
are competent work, but not up to what he can do, or did.  Of course, we
still have two books to go...

...!ukma!ukecc!vnend      

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 16:18:30 GMT
From: felix!billw@decuac.dec.com (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: A new Amber "book" not by Zelazny

Just found in a bookstore:

          COMBAT COMMAND
  In the world of Roger Zelazny's
       NINE PRINCES IN AMBER

        THE BLACK ROAD WAR

                by
           Neil Randall

      with an Introduction by
           Roger Zelazny

[What a title] What is this?  It is "a role-playing novel", wherein,
apparently, the reader gets to "take command" and fight through a battle
based in the same universe as the Amber novels (I haven't actually read
more than the Introductions, yet).  It looks like it might actually be good
and will certainly be more involved than the usual "choose your own
adventure" books.  This one involves battle charts, dice, etc., similar to
other role-playing games.

The main reason I picked it up, however, is for the Introduction by Roger.
Here he acknowledges that the Amber characters' "order of...birth and their
parentage" are "matters capable of causing considerable confusion".  He
then addresses some of these issues, enumerates their parentage and
"colors", and discusses their relationships.  It is brief, but interesting,
and may straighten out some of the confusion.

Also mentioned is an "Amber board game" also due out about now
("mid-1988").  Other "worlds" in the COMBAT COMMAND series (this is #6):
Piers Anthony's BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT, Robert Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS,
Keith Laumer's STAR COLONY, David Drake's HAMMER'S SLAMMER'S, Jack
Williamson's THE LEGION OF SPACE, and (Real Soon Now) Jerry Pournelle's
JANISSARIES.  Oh, and for those who need to know: "An Ace Book", "July
1988", ISBN: 0-441-11537-3.

Bill Weinberger
FileNet Corporation
UUCP: hplabs!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 88 21:16:04 GMT
From: kerog@eneevax.umd.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Re: Zelazny; Sign of Chaos

MPAGAN%ATL.DECnet@GE-CRD.ARPA writes:
>Sounds like Zelazny is acknowledging that sub-genre some have labeled
>"cyberpunk".  This is the kind of little in-joke which would bug the hell
>out of me if it was done by any author but Zelazny; from him it somehow
>comes across more naturally.

I noticed it too, and yes, it does sound like it's supposed to be
cyberpunk.  However, I see nothing wrong with that.  The whole point of the
Amber books is that in Shadow, all things are possible.  Martin could have
read a cyberpunk book and decided it would be a neat place to go.

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 88 18:39:24 GMT
From: russ@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
Subject: Re: Amber

rwebb@cup.portal.com grumbles...
>IMHO, R. Z. seems to have to turned to 'pot boilers', and a guaranteed
>sales projection (and income), and away from the better works of his past.
>With a bit of editing (compacted as single works, and minus the
>recapitulations), both "Amber" and "Son of Amber" *might* each equal "Lord
>of Light", or "Creatures of Light and Darkness."
>
>Maybe I'm just too impatient, or maybe I just expect too much ... but I
>*know* the guy has the talent to lay some wonderful visions on paper.
>Each time I see the latest skinny hardcover episode of the Amber soap, I
>go through the same gnashing drill.  (I'm hooked, I buy it anyhow ('though
>last time 'round I waited for the SFBC version ;-))

I might point out at this juncture that the latest Amber books have been a
great deal longer than, say, Hand of Oberon.  The second series has
definitely been more satisfying in book length than the first.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 01:02:31 GMT
From: robby@ssyx.ucsc.edu (robby anderson)
Subject: Amber

hmmm...this is my first post, so don`t kill me, but I was reading about the
Amber series, and have had a few things running through my mind about them.
This seems to be the place to express them.

I`ve read the entire first series, and enjoyed it very much each time I`ve
perused them.  They are well constructed novels that carry you through
them.  They were great -- inspirational.

The second set was another story.  I`ve managed to wade through the first
two, wade being the operative word there.  I finished them only because I
enjoyed the first set so much.  They seemed a lot more contrived, and a lot
more, um, 80ish.  I can`t think of a better word for it.  The new series is
much more "glossy" modern, etc. etc., my biggest complaint about them.

Guess that's it.

robby@ssyx.ucsc.edu
blk151@gorn.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 20:01:35 GMT
From: russ@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Random J Nightfall)
Subject: Re: Amber

robby@ssyx.ucsc.edu (robby anderson) writes:
>Hmmm...this is my first post, so don`t kill me, but I was reading about
>the Amber series, and have had a few things running through my mind about
>them.  This seems to be the place to express them....  I`ve read the
>entire first series, and enjoyed it very much each time I`ve perused them.
>They are well constructed novels that carry you though them.  They were
>great -- inspirational.


Inspirational?  Hmmmm.  I think I'll just stick with "excellent reading."

>The second set was another story.  I`ve managed to wade through the first
>two, wade being the operative word there.  I finished them only because I
>enjoyed the first set so much.  They seemed a lot more contrived, and a
>lot more, um, 80ish.  I can`t think of a better word for it.  The new
>series is much more "glossy" modern, etc. etc.  my biggest complaint about
>them.

Glossy?  I'd say that modern is fair, since Merlin was on Earth for a
different period of time than Corwin (ie, recently).  But glossy?  Having
read the three that are out from the second series, I'd say that it has a
definite advantage -- it deals with a much broader spectrum of people than
the first series.  You find all sorts of folk in the second series.

Furthermore, the look into the Courts of Chaos, slight as it has been, has
been interesting, and the little details of Untold Fact of the First Series
has been great.

russ@uokmax.UUCP
sun!texsun!uokmax!russ

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 29 Jul 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 236

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Gibson (4 msgs) & Howard &
                            Somtow & Spinrad & 
                            Story Request (2 msgs) & 
                            Answers (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 88 06:09:17 GMT
From: jsp@cup.portal.com
Subject: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

I am about two-thirds of the way through _Neuromancer_, and I just can't
get into it.  I have a request to put to the Gibson devotees: Could you
tell me _why_ you like this book so much?  I would like to hear from
someone willing to take some time to set down some concrete reasons, and
try to make me understand what the attraction is.  I am _not_ looking to
start an argument; I don't dislike the book, and am not out to dispute
anyone's opinion of it, I would just like to understand why you feel the
way you do.  This will not be served by someone telling me "Because it's a
great book", or "Because it's well written".  I'm after the deeper reasons.
Have I missed something?  I've been a software engineer for ten years, so
it's not like the concepts are beyond me.  Still, I find the jargon
overused and annoying.  Am I getting too old and jaded?  Somehow, the
concepts and plot just don't seem particularly new to me.  The writing is a
little above average, but by no means great.  So what have I missed?

Anyone feel up to the challenge?

James Preston

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 88 17:35:31 GMT
From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

jsp@cup.portal.com writes:
>I am about two-thirds of the way through _Neuromancer_, and I just can't
>get into it.  I have a request to put to the Gibson devotees: Could you
>tell me _why_ you like this book so much?
>...
>Anyone feel up to the challenge?

Well, to start with, I didn't love "Neuromancer", or even like it
particularly much, but I do respect it as a well-written, innovative and
worthwhile book to have read.  To be specific, I thought that Gibson's
writing style was fresh and interesting (to me, at least), and several of
the ideas in the book made me think, which I appreciate in speculative
fiction.  Gibson's imagery also appealed to me; I thought it was
wonderfully vivid and descriptive--I felt I could actually feel, hear, and
smell the places and people he wrote about.

The main reason I didn't like it enough to reread or to read the sequel
"Count Zero" was that I didn't find any of the characters at all likeable
(with the exception of Adam the Rastoman.)  I have a difficult time with
books that don't contain at least one character I can empathize with.

I realize this didn't quite answer your question, since I'm not one of the
folks holding "Neuromancer" up as a great book, but I felt like posting my
views anyway.

Jennifer Hawthorne 
..!mit-eddie!athena.mit.edu!jen

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 03:24:04 GMT
From: roy@pyr.gatech.edu (Roy Mongiovi)
Subject: Why I DIDN'T like Neuromancer (SPOILER)

It's been quite some time since I read Neuromancer.  I posted my comments
at that time, but a bug caused it to not be distributed and it had already
timed out before I could convince our system administrator that something
was wrong.  However, I distinctly remember my two biggest problems with the
book.

On a couple of occasions in the book our hero's brain waves go flat because
the AI is communicating with him (it has yanked something primal to the
human mind into the AI environment and so it isn't any longer in his head).
This seems like a prime candidate for verifiable proof of the existence of
a "soul" (i.e. something non-physical that is essential to the human mind).
Does ANYONE think of this in the story?  No.  It is simply taken as given
that anyone communing with an AI on its own terms goes brain dead, and if
they get done with you in time and put you back everything proceeds as
normal.  It seems pretty ridiculous to me that no one would wonder about
that.

But the icing on the stupidity cake for me was the ending.  Everyone is
terrified that an AI will escape from its cage and cause incalculable
damage.  They are likened to demons; they are non-human, we can't
understand their desires, they must be kept contained at all costs.  In
fact, there is an entire occupation (the turing police) whose sole purpose
seems to be the eradication of anyone thought to be aiding an AI.  Finally,
at the end of the novel the unthinkable happens: with a human's
intervention an AI escapes!  And what does it want to do?  Does it burn
men, women, houses, and villages?  No!  It just wants to sit back, be cool,
and "wrap" with its intellectual equals.  Give me a break.

Roy J. Mongiovi
System Support Specialist
Office of Computing Services
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta GA  30332
(404) 894-4660
...!{allegra, amd, hplabs, masscomp, ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 02:08:58 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

I like Neuromancer primarily for escapist reasons. I'm a computer nerd and
I'd love to live in a society built by people like me... yes, it's all
hosed up in many ways, but so are most of the hackers (and ex-hackers) that
I know.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 88 19:01:57 GMT
From: arthure@sco.com (Arthur Evans)
Subject: Horror by Robert E. Howard

inb@creare.UUCP (Ian Brown) writes:
>I don't read too much horror either.  However, one of the few authors of
>horror that I found to be very enjoyable was Robert Howard - that's right,
>the author of Conan.
>
>It is worth reading some of his stuff outside of the Conan series.  His
>horror combines stuff from his grandmother's stories about Celtic myths
>with stories told by the descendents of black slaves.  Unfortunately, I
>don't remember titles to any of these stories, however, if you can find
>some of the anthologies of Howard's work, you usually can find one or more
>of his horror stories in them.

One anthology that contains a bunch of Howard's horror stories is _Pigeons
from Hell_.  The title is almost funny, but the title story is in fact
quite good.  At its best, Howard's horror is excellent, really
down-to-earth, things-that-go-bump-in-the-night terror that talks straight
to the reptillian center, childhood nightmares department.

Not surprisingly, Howard's stories tend to have a western tinge (besides
Weird Tales and such, his work was published in some western and detective
pulps, and of course he was born and spent almost all of his life in
Texas).

I remember Howard's Conan books as one of the first things I read in the
fantasy/science fiction realm, and he continues to rank as one of my
favorite fantasy authors, although, to tell the truth, it's been years
since I've read him ...

arthur

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 16:52:34 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE AQUILIAD 2 by S. P. Somtow

	   THE AQUILIAD, VOLUME II: "Aquila and the Iron Horse"
			      by S. P. Somtow
		       Del Rey, 1988, 0-345-33868-5
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     S. P. Somtow seems to be the new permanent name of Somtow Sucharitkul.
Under the latter name he had published STARSHIP & HAIKU and THE AQUILIAD.
The first novel he had published under that name was VAMPIRE JUNCTION (in
1985) and it seemed at the time that he would use Sucharitkul for his
science fiction and Somtow for his horror fiction.  Now, however, his
earlier books are being reissued under the name S. P. Somtow, and I must
conclude that he has given up the fight of trying to get people to
pronounce (or spell) his name correctly.

     This book is (not surprisingly) a sequel to THE AQUILIAD.  Nine
hundred years after the Founding of Rome (or around 200 A.D. to those who
follow the strange Christian religion), Rome rules the world--or most of
it--including Novum Terrum, which Bigfoot exists, technology seems to be at
the level of about one hundred years ago on our Earth, and a deranged
traveler from the future is trying to destroy the world.

     Like most sequels, this did not live up to the first book.  The
parallel namings begin to grate after a while: the main character is Equus
Insanus, which is okay, but that the city on Manhattan Island is called
Eburacum Novum (Eburacum being the Latin name for that town in Britain that
the local inhabitants call York) and is overseen by a colossal statue of
Dionysius, which is also called--for some very contrived reasons--the
Statua Libertaris is just too, too cute.  The conflict between the Roman
way of life and the Lacotian (Amerind) way was belabored far too heavily.
I just don't believe that any society, or even any small part of a society,
could survive solely on a diet of hummingbird tongues and other such
delicacies; even decadent Roman nobles would eat mostly carbohydrates and
more mundane meats.  But Somtow keeps returning to how decadent the Roman
diet is versus the healthier Lacotian diet, how barbaric the Romans are for
killing aurochs (bison) from a ferrequus (train) for sport with no intent
of eating them, etc., etc., etc.  The result is that a plot that would have
been served by a novella becomes a novel.  Maybe this particular alternate
world has lost its initial wonder and become too familiar, but the second
novel is a great let-down from the first.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 08:45:12 GMT
From: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Steve Greenland)
Subject: Re: LITTLE HEROES by Norman Spinrad (review) (Another view)

abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
>Well, I've finished Norman Spinrad's LITTLE HEROES, available in paperback
>from Bantam/Spectra. /* WARNING -- SPOILERS CONTAINED IN THIS REVIEW! */
>
>taste might vary a small amount, the appeal of beautiful women is
>universal, a beautiful woman is beautiful in every man's eyes, and one who
>is not beautiful is beautiful in the eyes of none.  To carry this even
>further, Spinrad takes it as axiomatic that a fat woman is an ugly,
>disgusting woman.  In fact, the plot hinges at several critical places on
>the assumption that making love to a fat woman is about the most
>disgusting thing a man can do that doesn't involve homosexuality.  At one
>point a major character, feeling ill from having drunk and snorted too
>much at a party, is made to vomit by the experience of being kissed by a
>fat, and therefore disgustingly ugly, woman.  Late in the book the same
>character, at a climactic (*sorry!*) moment, proves the essential heroic
>nobility of his soul by making love to this same woman.

I think Alan missed the point.  The major character in question DID have
the 'all-american playboy' view of sex and beatiful women etc.

The final event of making love to the 'fat ugly girl' was not out of heroic
nobility but because of his realization (through Gloria) that there IS more
to women than their looks, and that a person's soul is a much better way
'judge' a person's beauty than their physical appearance.

The reason that most of the major male characters view fat women as
disgustingly ugly is that they are products of their media propaganda
(which is _our_ media propaganda), which does promote the idea that the
only acceptable physique is the slim trim one.

In a more general vein, I was not nearly as impressed by LITTLE HEROES as
Alan.  It was, at best, an ok read suitable for filling several hours.
say, +1 on the Leeper scale.  I guess I tend to judge books (and stories)
by how often I reread them.  BUG JACK BARRON(+3 1/2) I have read several
times (including once about a week before i read LH) and each time I get
more out of it, or see things in different ways. I can't imagine wanting to
reread LH: too much of it is slightly annoying, especially the immature
sexual attitudes of most of the characters.

The other thing is that the repetition in Spinrad's prose just wears me
out.  The continuous use of certain catch-phrases seems intrinsic in his
novels (although I can't remember that in VOID CAPTAINS TALE, which I DID
like) gets on my nerves after a while.

And I still think the best Spinrad I ever read was the short story
'Carcinoma Angels' in Dangerous Visions.

OK, back to what you were doing!

steveg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 22:37:55 GMT
From: moore@prefect.berkeley.edu (Peter X Moore)
Subject: quote in a quote

I have a very vague reference in a reference question that I am posting for
a friend:

In a science fiction novel I read during the last year or so had the main
character, a man, thnking about some monumental job or task ahead of him.
The completion of this job will require a great deal of work.  To keep
himself from getting too discouraged about all the work he has to do, he
remembers a quote from a story or poem.  In this quote, another young man
is think about his upcoming journey to his uncle's house.  On the road to
his uncle's house is a big hill.  There is no other way for the young man
to get to his uncle's home except to climb this hill, one step at a time.
He can't go around the hill, or under it, or through it.  He must climb the
hill, but each step brings him closer to his uncle's house.  And so, he
accomplishes his journey one step at a time.  This passage ends with the
phrase "... but the ways is the way, and the end is near."

I don't know whether this story or poem was written by a real-life writer
or poet, I don't remember.  It sounds very much like T.S.  Elliots ``Little
Gidding'', but it isn't.  The science fiction author is possibly Frank
Herbert, David Brin, or Gregory Benford, but it could also be anybody else.

Does this ring any bells for anybody?  Please send all replies to me.

Peter Moore
moore@Berkeley
...!ucbvax!moore

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 14:03:18 GMT
From: stern@hc.dspo.gov (michael Stern)
Subject: Re:Help finding book

I can't remember the title of a book by, I think, Fred Pohl.  It involves a
genetic engineer who creates a virus to destroy/seriously hurt the human
race after his wife was killed by an IRA car bomb.  He spread the virus by
planting it in cash.  I don't remember the end in any great detail.

Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

Thanks,
Stern

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 16:03:39 GMT
From: tsf@PROOF.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Help finding book

stern@hc.dspo.gov.UUCP (Michael Stern) writes:
>I can't remember the title of a book by, I think, Fred Pohl.  It involves
>a genetic engineer who creates a virus to destroy/seriously hurt the human
>race after his wife was killed by an IRA car bomb.  He spread the virus by
>planting it in cash.  I don't remember the end in any great detail.

There is a book called "The White Plague" by Frank Herbert.  It has the IRA
car bomb and the virus and the genetic engineer, but not the cash.  This
virus was contagious in an ordinary fashion.

Tim Freeman
Arpanet: tsf@theory.cs.cmu.edu
Uucp:    ...!seismo.css.gov!theory.cs.cmu.edu!tsf

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 22:19:11 GMT
From: mnetor!alberta!gilles@uunet.uu.net (Gilles Simon Dionne)
Subject: Re: Help finding book

stern@hc.dspo.gov.UUCP (Michael Stern) writes:
>I can't remember the title of a book by, I think, Fred Pohl.  It involves
>a genetic engineer who creates a virus to destroy/seriously hurt the human
>race after his wife was killed by an IRA car bomb.  He spread the virus by
>planting it in cash.  I don't remember the end in any great detail.
>
>Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

I think the book you are referring to is : The White Plague written by
Frank Herbert.
 
***** SPOILER ******* 

   In the end, the Plague mostly succeeds. A large portion of the world's
women are killed( the Plague only affects women ). The book leaves off by
theorizing on a new society where women are dominant but restricted to
being baby makers. They each have First, Second, Third,...  husbands since
I think( this may be wrong ) that the ratio of men to women after the
Plague is around 5 to 1. If I'm not mistaken the genetic engineer ( can't
remember his name ) is discovered in Ireland looking at the results of his
Plague pretty early in the book. He is setup with a couple of partners to
go through Ireland cross-country to a place where they do research for
finding a cure to the Plague(this is both to ensure his identity and to
bring him to help out in the search for a cure - since he devised it, he
must be able to find a cure... ). When they get near the place at the end
of the book, the guy goes wacko! But I think they get a cure anyway.

Gilles

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 1 Aug 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 237

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Ellison & Friesner (2 msgs) &
                           Gibson (4 msgs) & Howard (2 msgs) &
                           May (2 msgs) & Robinson (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 88 11:41:03 GMT
From: menolly@garnet.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>1) Could anyone give me information on any new works (both fiction and
>>non-fiction) by Harlan Ellison since his "Stalking The Nightmare"
>
>Almost all of his stuff is Out of Print right now. His most recent
>collection is The Essential Ellison (Nemo Press 0-914261-01-1). Good luck
>finding it. He has two collections coming out soon, one fiction, one
>non-fiction (his Harlan Ellison's Watching stuff from F&SF), which will

A newish collection of Ellison non-fiction which I found in the 
SF/Fantasy fiction section of a local Waldenbooks: 
     "Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed."  

Pamela Pon
1235 Vista Grande
Millbrae CA 94030
menolly@garnet.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

From: kathy@ncr-sd.sandiego.ncr.com (Kathy Li aka the Rev. Mom)
Subject: Esther Friesner list requested
Date: 29 Jul 88 23:46:13 GMT

Ok.  I picked up _Druid's_Blood_ and _Elf_Defense_ and loved them both.  I
just bought _Here_Be_Demons_.  From the net, I've gleaned there are other
book titles, namely _Harlot's_Ruse_, _New_York_By_Knight_ (to which Elf
Defense is the sequel) and _Mustapha_and_His_Wise_Dog_.

Is this list correct?  And am I missing anything?  And how likely am I to
find her books?  Thanks in advance.

Kathy Li
kathy@sandiego.ncr.com
...hplabs!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!kathy
...ucsd!ncr-sd!kathy

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 88 07:22:42 GMT
From: wenn@K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Esther Friesner list requested

OK.  Esther Friesner novels are:

   2 Book Series [contemporary humourous fantasy]
New York by Knight [[1986]
Elf Defense [1988]
   3 Book Series [high fantasy, out of projected 9 books]
Mustapha and His Wise Dog [1985]
Spells of Mortal Weaving [1986]
The Witchwood Cradle [1987]
   Stand Alone Books
Harlot's Ruse [1986]
The Silver Mountain [1986]
Here Be Demons [1988]
Druid's Blood [1988]

John

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 17:39:13 GMT
From: Bourne@mips.csc.ti.com (Julie Bourne)
Subject: RE: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

Even though I have only read _Neuromancer_ and no other works by Gibson
(and therefore cannot be considered a devotee), I thought I'd answer.  Now,
I wasn't absolutely enthralled by _Neuromancer_'s world like I have been
with other novels, but I liked it anyway.

  Reason why I didn't like it:
    1) the characters weren't as 'deep' or as well defined as I am used
       to and like them to be
   
  Reasons why I liked it:
    1) new concept (for me, anyway) of the future; it gave me something
       to think about
    2) Gibson's style of writing did not bore me, nor did he go too fast
       in the story; I didn't get bogged down with technical descriptions
    3) as a result of the two above reasons, _Neuromancer_ was an
       enjoyable escape

Now, if you have read _Shockwave Rider_ (by John Brunner), I could compare
the two.  I liked _Shockwave Rider_ for all the same reasons as
_Neuromancer_ in addition to others.  It, unlike _Neuromancer_, had deeper
characters (or at least a deeper protagonist).  It made me think more and
seemed to me more realistic.  In sum, I thought it had more substance than
_Neuromancer_.

Well, that's about the best I can do to explain my feelings on
_Neuromancer_.  Hope it helped.

Bourne@mips.csc.ti.com

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 17:43:47 GMT
From: bturner@hpcvlx.hp.com (Bill Turner)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

Part of the reason why I liked "Neuromancer" was the vivid imagery.  I
still remember the first line vividly ("The sky was the color of
television, tuned to a dead channel.")  'Course, I didn't read
"Neuromancer" until after I'd seen (and conditionally liked) Max Headroom,
so it was easier to visualize the scenes.

(As a side note, if you want vivid imagery, try Norman Spinrad's "Street
Meat" -- now THAT is powerful imagery!)

As things moved away from Chiba City and the Sprawl, I started losing the
vividness.  Ah, well.

Some random ramblings from

Bill Turner

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 88 02:43:06 GMT
From: hogge@mips.csc.ti.com (John Hogge)
Subject: Re: Why I DIDN'T like Neuromancer (SPOILER)

My gripe with Neuromancer is very simple: it's sparse on ideas.  For such a
reasonably long book, there are few characters, organizations,
relationships, ideas, events, etc.  Too much description.  That's the
impression I came away with.

I much prefered Delany's "Triton", which also might be counted as
cyberpunk.

John

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 16:18:00 GMT
From: bradley!frodo@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

The main reason I like _Neuromancer is because of the style.  It is
sufficiently different from most of what I've been reading the last year or
so to make it fresh and interesting.

I also enjoyed the concept of cyberspace....a three-dimensional graphic
representation of data that could be used that way would be a fun thing to
play with....

As for liking the characters....I don't want to restart all the flaming
about Thomas Covenant, but I think that a lot of the same arguments for
liking Donaldson's books fit here.  I can't say as I had much respect for
Case, but I thought (the woman, I forget her name now) had a certain style,
and the plot was exciting.  (to me anyway)

(Not to represent those last two comments as being some of the arguments
for liking the Covenant books)

Pete Hartman
...ihnp4!bradley!frodo

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 13:13:39 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Query: Series by Robert E. Howard?

The recent discussion on Howard's horror stories brings up another
question:

Does anyone have a list of the stories Howard wrote for his various
continuing characters?  You needn't post the obvious ones, like Conan,
Kull, Bran Mak Morn, or Solomon Kane, but I would be interested in the
titles of the stories about Black Turlogh O'Brien, James Conrad, Steve
Costigan, Breckenridge Elkins, the comical cowboy whose middle name is
"Jeopardy" (and whose full name I forget), etc.

If such a list is too long to post, how about pointers to a published list?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 88 03:08:16 GMT
From: sdba!mic!d25001@gatech.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Re: Query: Series by Robert E. Howard?

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu writes:
> The recent discussion on Howard's horror stories brings up another
> question:
> Does anyone have a list of the stories Howard wrote for his various
> continuing characters?  You needn't post the obvious ones, like Conan,
> Kull, Bran Mak Morn, or Solomon Kane, but I would be interested in the
> titles of the stories about Black Turlogh O'Brien, James Conrad, Steve
> Costigan, Breckenridge Elkins, the comical cowboy whose middle name is
> "Jeopardy" (and whose full name I forget), etc.

   A "complete" bibliography with series lists and all can be found in Glen
Lord's _The_Last_Celt__A_Bio-Bibliography_of_Robert_Ervis_Howard, Donald M.
Grant, 1976.

   That book is long out of print; so, I have supplied an abbreviated
bibliography.  I have included all the characters that you mention except
James Conrad, who doen't seem to be listed.  Anyway, here goes:

1. Breckinridge Elkins
   _A_Gent_From_Bear_Creek_
      Mountain Man
      Guns of the Mountains
      A Gent From Bear Creek
      The Feud Buster
      The Road To Bear Creek
      The Scalp Hunter
      Cupid From Bear Creek
      The Haunted Mountain
      Sharp's Gun Serenade (Educate Or Bust)
      War On Bear Creek
   _The_Pride_Of_Bear_Creak
      The Riot At Cougar Paw
      Pilgrims To the Pecos
      High Horse Rampage
      The Apache Mountain War
      Pistol Politics
      The Conquerin' Hero of the Humbolts
      A Ringtailed Tornado
   _Mayhem_On_Bear_Creek
      "No Cowherders Wanted"
      Mayhem and Taxes
      Sharp's Gun Serenade
      The Peaceful Pilgrim
      While Smoke Rolled
      A Elkins Nevers Surrenders
2. Cormac Mac Art
   _Tigers_of_the_Sea
      Tigers of the Sea
      Swords of the Northern Sea
      The Night of the Wolf  -- Bran Mak Morn cross-over
      The Temple of Abomination
3. James Allison
      Marchers of Valhalla
      The Valley of the Worm
      Akram the Mysterious
      Brachan the Kelt
      The Garden of Fear
      The Guardian of the Idol
4. Francis Xavier Gordon -- El Borak
      The Daughter of Erlik Khan
      The Lost Valley of Iskander
      Hawk of the Hills
      Blood of the Gods
      Country of the Knife
      Son of the White Wolf
      The Comin of El Borak
      El Borak
      Intrigue in Kurdistan
      Iron Terror
      Koda Khan's Tale
      The Land of Mystery
      North of Khyber
      A Power Amoung the Islands
      The Shunned Castle
      Swords of the Hills
5. Kirby O'Donnell
      The Curse of the Crimson God
      The Treasures of Tartary
      The Treasure of Shaibar Khan
6. Dennis Dorgan
      The Alleys of Singapore
      The Jade Monkey
      The Mandarin Ruby
      The Yellow Cobra
      In High Society
      Playing Journalist
      The Destiny Gorilla
      A Knight of the Round Table
      Playing Santa Claus
      The Turkish Menace
7. Agnes de Chastillon
      Sword Woman
      Blades of France
      Mistress of Death
8. Pike Bearfield
      The Diablos Trail
      Gents from the Pecos
      Gents on the Lynch
      The Riot at Bucksnort
9. Sailor Steve Costigan
      Alleys of Peril
      The Battling Sailor
      Blow the Chinks Down
      Blue River Blues
      Breed of Battle
      The Bull Dog Breed
      By the Law of the Shark
      The Champ of the Forecastle
      Circus Fists
      Dark Shanghai
      Fist and Fang
      Flying Knuckles
      General Ironfist
      Hard-fisted Sentiment
      The Honor of the Ship
      Night of Battle
      The Pit of the Serpent
      Sailor Costigan and the Swami
      Sailor's Grudge
      Sign of the Snake
      The Slugger's Game
      Sluggers of the Beach
      Texas Fists
      The TNT Punch
      Vikings of the Gloves
      Waterfront Fists
      Winner Take All
11. Stephen Costigan  (not the same as Sailor Steve Costigan)
      Skull-Face
      Taverel Manor
12. Terence Vulmea
      Black Vulmea's Vengeance
      Swords of the Red Brotherhood
13. Turlogh Dubh O'Brien
      The Dark Man
      The Gods of Bal-Sagoth
      The Sahdow of the Hun
14. Buckner J. Grimes
      Knife River Prodigal
      A Man-Eating Jeopard
15. Cormac Fitzgeoffrey
      Hawks of Outremer
      The Blood of Belshazzar
      The Slave-Princess
16. De Montour
      In the Forest of Villefere
      Wolfshead

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, infoswx, texsun!rrm }!mcomp!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 13:21:34 GMT
From: kerog@eneevax.umd.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Re: Julian May

lambert@fortune.UUCP (George Lambert) writes:
>For those of you not familiar with the Pliocene Saga, it consistes of:
>The Many Colored Land
>The Golden Torc
>(Title slips my mind for the third book)

 The Nonborn King

>The Adversary.
>
>Powerful story telling in my opinion, and I'd be interested in hearing
>your views.

Yes, I agree, they are very powerful stories.  I especially liked the
characterization.  By the time the series was over, you felt you really
*knew* all the main characters.  Also, I can never resist a story involving
massive psionic powers.  This series was no exception.

I highly recommend these books to anyone who hasn't read them already.

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 88 16:47:58 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Julian May

Speaking of Julian May, was anyone else disappointed that the Pleistocene
novels didn't end up with an "All you Zombies" type timeloop involving the
whole human race?

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 01:28:18 GMT
From: dolqci!gmu90x!kaufman@decuac.dec.com (defun anchoviesp () nil)
Subject: Opening pages of "Time Pressure"

Just got my hands on Spider Robinson's "Time Pressure", fresh out in
paperback, and discovered something most unpleasant in the first two pages.
It does require a bit of explanation, however:

I attended Balticon this spring, at which Robinson was GOH.  The convention
program had a shortened version of Chapter 1 in it, and I was amused to see
that the opening paragraphs stood there primarily to set up a most
hideously Robinsonesque pun.  At his reading at the con, Spider read the
early chapters of the book, including the aforementioned pun.  But the Ace
paperback has had that line changed from "It was a dark and stormy night,
when suddenly the snot ran out" (Read the chapter, and you'll understand)
to a less contextually sensible and far less hilarious "It was a dark and
stormy night, when suddenly a shot rang out."

Does anyone have any idea why this was done?  I can't believe it was any
form of censorship on the part of the publishers, not with all the other
explicit stuff going on in the book.  Did someone mistakenly type it in en
route from Nova Scotia to the bookstore?  What does the hardcover version
say?

I'm truly a bit bummed about this little detail, but happy that I'd been
able to see/hear the alternative.  And if you're reading the book, try
reading the short paragraph on page 2 differently.  I think you'll like it
that way.

Ken Kaufman
kaufman@gmuvax2.gmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 16:21:39 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Opening pages of "Time Pressure"

>But the Ace paperback has had that line changed from "It was a dark and
>stormy night, when suddenly the snot ran out" (Read the chapter, and
>you'll understand) to a less contextually sensible and far less hilarious
>"It was a dark and stormy night, when suddenly a shot rang out."
>
>Does anyone have any idea why this was done?  I can't believe it was any
>form of censorship on the part of the publishers, not with all the other
>explicit stuff going on in the book.

This sounds to me like a classic case of an overanxious copy-editor looking
at the phrase and not the context while 'cleaning up' the manuscript. It
is, unfortunately, all too common.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 88 01:01:27 GMT
From: garth!fenwick@pyramid.com (Stephen Fenwick)
Subject: Re: Opening pages of "Time Pressure"

kaufman@gmuvax2.gmu.edu writes:
>Just got my hands on Spider Robinson's "Time Pressure", fresh out in
>paperback, and discovered something most unpleasant in the first two
>pages.  It does require a bit of explanation, however:
...
>Spider read the early chapters of the book, including the aforementioned
>pun.  But the Ace paperback has had that line changed from "It was a dark
>and stormy night, when suddenly the snot ran out" (Read the chapter, and
>you'll understand) to a less contextually sensible and far less hilarious
>"It was a dark and stormy night, when suddenly a shot rang out."

The hardback edition has the {first|correct} version.

Spider's definitely improved over "Night of Power" with this one.

Steve Fenwick
Intergraph APD
2400 Geng Road
Palo Alto, California 
(415) 852-2325
...!{sun|sri-unix}!pyramid!garth!fenwick

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 88 23:27:55 GMT
From: elwood@cfa250.harvard.edu (Elwood)
Subject: Time Pressure

I read Time Pressure yesterday-liked the story until the sudden ending..
Something about stories that suddenly run out with Deux ex Machina endings
really bothers me.  (If I remember correctly Deux ... means a sudden
miraculous save or solution).  It makes me think the author wimped out, had
a deadline to meet or a creative block and just couldnt think of a sensible
way to end the story in 25 pages without involving something ridiculous and
even more fantastical than the sci-fi already involved in the plot.  It's
like you suddenly jump from a laser battle (somewhat plausible) to the
battle being ended by a sudden fleet of invisible unicorns from the elvish
dimension. Come on guys....!!! Can't you do any better?

Up till the end I really liked Time Pressure a lot.

elisha

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 88 02:58:27 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Time Pressure

elwood@cfa250.harvard.edu (Elwood) writes:
> I read Time Pressure yesterday-liked the story until the sudden ending.
> Something about stories that suddenly run out with Deux ex Machina
> endings really bothers me.  (If I remember correctly Deux ... means a
> sudden miraculous save or solution).  It makes me think the author wimped
> out,

"Deus ex Machina" is "the god from the machine."  In classical Greek stages
they had a crane that would pick up an actor backstage, lift him over the
stage backing, and hold him in the air--playing the part of a god.  If the
play was a hopeless muddle, the god could set all to right by divine
intervention, without the need to 'solve' anything. . .

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 1 Aug 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 238

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Juveniles (2 msgs) &
                                   Time Warps (3 msgs) & 
                                   News From LOCUS

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 88 16:18:51 GMT
From: susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Tim Susman)
Subject: Re: Juvenile

EHT@PSUVM.BITNET (P. Baughman) writes:
>   Now, as to this subject of juveniles....
>What's wrong with them?  A lot of my most favorite books are classed as
>"juvenile", which doesn't make me like them any less.  Perhaps I'm wrong
>but it sounds like you're saying "adults" shouldn't like and/or read
>"juvenile" novels.  To which I say "ACK PHFFFFPT BARF"!  I will always
>read (and re-read) anything that I like, be it classed as juvenile, adult,
>hogspittle, or what have you.  Literature (I know, some don't consider SF
>as "literature") should be read based on whether it is good ( strictly
>personal preference), not whether it is good "juvenile" or good "adult"
>(or good "hogspittle" :-).

   No flames on this one; I am in total agreement.  To provide some
examples:

   A little while back on this selfsame newsgroup, there was a discussion
about one of my favorite series, Patricia McKillip's _Riddle Master_
trilogy, being classified as juvenile in some places (which I still don't
understand).

   Another of my favorite series is Susan Cooper's _The Dark is Rising_,
which is firmly entrenched in the juvenile stacks.  I first read it when I
was in 5th or 6th grade, and I love it (them?) just as much now as then.
[A side note to any interested parties: Collier Books recently reprinted
the series, sans the first book, _Over Sea, Under Stone_.  This was
slightly annoying but understandable, since that was the only book that did
not feature the young hero.  It is not really necessary to read the first
book to enjoy the rest.]

   Yet another example: Madeleine L'Engle's _A Wrinkle In Time_, _A Wind In
the Door_, _A Swiftly Tilting Planet_, and _Many Waters_ are all old
favorites of mine, and definitely fantasy, but are invariably found in the
Young Adult section, of all places.  I think it's probably by association
with her other works, which do sort of belong there but are all very good
anyway.  [Especially _A Ring Of Endless Light_ ...]

   Maybe this stuff is juvenile.  In the last two cases, I first read and
enjoyed it at a very early age.  Who cares -- it's still good.

(Of course, I also read _The Dragonriders of Pern_ in 6th grade.  It's
amazing how I failed to pick up on so much of the stuff in that that seems
obvious now.  Referring to the sexual situations, obviously.  I did know
what dragons were :)

Tim Susman
University of Pennsylvania
susman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 88 02:23:28 GMT
From: lsc%chryse@sun.com (Lisa S Chabot)
Subject: Re: Juvenile

No juvenile is going to pry Diana Wynne Jones' _Fire_and_Hemlock_ away from
me.  Nor _Archer's_Goon_, for that matter.

"Mine!  Mine! Mine!"

lsc

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 88 18:27:46 GMT
From: Bourne@mips.csc.ti.com (Julie Bourne)
Subject: Time Warps

Question: In the history of SF, did the subject of time warps and/or time
travel first appear before or after Einstein's theory of relativity?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this subject...

Julie Bourne
Dallas, Texas
bourne@mips.csc.ti.com

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 88 12:40:19 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Time Warps

Bourne@mips.csc.ti.com (Julie Bourne) writes:
>Question: In the history of SF, did the subject of time warps and/or time
>travel first appear before or after Einstein's theory of relativity?

Before.  There were predecessors, but the "canonical" time travel story is
H G Wells' The Time Machine, whose original version (The Chronic Argonauts)
is about 15 years earlier than Einstein's first paper on Relativity.

The notion of a "time warp" in modern SF may derive from Einstein, but it
has been part of the lore of Faerie for many centuries that time runs at a
very different speed "under the hill".

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 88 01:30:58 GMT
From: evanh@sco.com (Evan A.C. Hunt)
Subject: Re: Time Warps

Bourne@mips.csc.ti.com (Julie Bourne):
>Question: In the history of SF, did the subject of time warps and/or time
>travel first appear before or after Einstein's theory of relativity?

  Time travel was definitely before.  I would say there've been stories
about time travel and time control for as long as people have been thinking
about time and wishing they could go to a different one.

   As for time warps--I'm sure that term wasn't used before Einstein.  But
I'm pretty sure there were stories about different worlds that ran on
different rates of time.  It's not the same thing as a time warp, but the
idea is similar to the way time warps are sometimes portrayed in SF.

Evan Hunt
evanh@sco.com
evanh%sco.com@ucscc.ucsc.edu
ucbvax!ucscc!sco!evanh
ethanol@ucscc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 88 21:15:18 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: LOCUS #329 June 88

Well, the new issue of Locus came, but it's taken me three weeks to get
around to going through the previous issue for brief tidbits of interest.
And yes, YOU should also be subscribing to LOCUS.  It's worth the cost.

LOCUS, The Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field, is published monthly by
LOCUS PUBLICATIONS.  Editorial address: 34 Ridgewood Lane, Oakland, CA
94611; send all mail to LOCUS PUBLICATIONS, PO Box 13305, Oakland, CA
94661.

Cover stories and pictures:

This was the issue just after Heinlein died.  It has two covers, the outer
one added to as a last minute attempt to get in the Heilein news, featuring
a full page photo of him, and inside, about seven pages (8 1/2 x 11, small
print) of obituary/appreciations.  The inner cover (the original one) has a
photo of Clifford Simak and the announcement of his death, a list of the
1988 Hugo nominations (which I think have already been posted, so I won't
dupe), and a photo of the Davis Magazine Award winners.

Charles Brown, the editor, in the editorial: "Robert Heinlein was the most
important influence in my life -- in many ways, a stronger father figure
than my own father.  I admired him more than any other human being, even
when I disagreed with what he thought.  I first met him in 1958, when he
was exactly the age I am now.  I could probably come close to describing
verbatim every meeting we had in thirty years.  In the last fifteen, I was
acutely aware that each meeting could be the last, and treated them
accordingly.  My own father died more than a decade ago, and it's always
bothered me I hadn't told him more often how much I respected and loved
him.  I tried to do that with Robert Heinlein.  I told him how much he
influenced me, how much I respected him -- and how much I loved him.  That,
and being so involved in the aftermath of his death, has at least lessened
the pain if not the loss.  Goodbye, Robert.  I love you."  [amen. ek]

Inside:

STAR TREK TOURS --- Universal Studios Tour was to open "The Star Trek
    Adventure" on June 1, 1988...held in a 2,000-seat theater, to combine
    footage from Trek films, new scripts, characters, soundtrack and
    dialogue ...each performance 29 audience members, using costumes, sets,
    film footage, and 'live' special effects...seemingly appear in a
    feature alongside William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy...

Winners of British Science Fiction Awards:
    novel --- "Grainne" by Keith Roberts
    short fiction --- "Love Sickness" by Geoff Ryman
    dramatic presentation --- "Star Cops" (BBC)
    artist --- Jim Burns

...and the awards keep proliferating...   Andre Norton has created a new
    award, The Gryphon, "...to be given to the best unpublished fantasy
    novel by a woman writer who has sold at least one story but not more
    than two novels."

A new professional horror/fantasy/sf magazine will appear in Britain,
called "Fear", third week in June.

Harlan Ellison has turned in to Houghton Mifflin a 107,000 word collection
titled "Angry Candy" for October publication; and "Harlan Ellison's
Watching" to Underwood-Miller for July publication (it's based on his
columns in Fantasy & Science Fiction magazine).

Gordon Dickson is working on "The Earth Lords", a historical fantasy for
Ace, and "Young Bleys", the next book in the "Childe Cycle" for Tor.

David Gerrold has turned in "A Rage For Revenge" the third book of "The War
Against the Chtorr" trilogy. He's expanded the first two books by 50%; all
three will be published in 1989. [Don't you just love "expanded" books? ek]

There's apparently a bill in Congress which would require those mail-order
businesses that do more than $12.5 million business, to collect sales taxes
from states where they sell their product.  Book clubs would be
particularly hard hit. [or any other kind of club. ek]

B. Dalton announced that it would no longer buy directly from small
publishers with less than $100,000 in annual business with Dalton.  When
the initial declaration raised a furor, Dalton "clarified" its position,
noting that Dalton is still interested in doing business with small
publishers but plans to order through wholesalers and larger publishing
houses' distribution systems, instead of directly, in order to hold down
freight costs.  ...  Waldenbooks, the other major US chain, has taken a
different approach to the problem, creating a separate small press buying
unit to deal with all but the top 50 publishing vendors.  The new unit has
four buyers.

Richard Curtis' column this month is about the language that publishers
speak, especially in their contracts, and the way agents "interpret"
between authors and their publishers.  One example:
   "My client thinks your editor is so incompetent he couldn't spell
   cat if you spotted him the C and the T!" becomes "I'm not certain
   that the author's and editor's views about the book are entirely
   compatible."

Fritz Leiber reviews several "audio versions" of books, such as Heinlein's
"The Cat That Walks Through Walls", read by Robert Vaughn, yes, Napoleon
Solo of the Man From U.N.C.L.E.

Reviews of many books, including three of the "Best of the Year" variety;
also, "Terry's Universe", the original anthology done in honor of Terry
Carr (who died sometime last year); "Federation World" by James White; "Urn
Burial", a juvenile novel by a British author, Robert Westall, which is
reviewed QUITE highly.  Supposedly, only one of his seven or so books has
been published in the paperback in the US.

From Mike Ashley's column, "The British Scene": "August is Tokien month.
   Volume 6 of the continuing History of Middle- Earth edited by
   Christopher Tolkien is due, and this is "The Return of the Shadow."  Its
   advance blurb calls this simply "The History of The Lord of the Rings,
   Part One," so it seems it might be episodes set slightly prior to the
   events in LotR.  I presume it isn't the sequel to LotR, which I seem to
   recall was to be titled "The New Shadow".  Also in August is the first
   paperback printing of Volume 4 of the series, "The Shaping of
   Middle-Earth", and a new edition of "Tree and Leaf" containing a
   previously unpublished poem by Tolkien called "Mythopoeia".

Frank Robinson reports in his column "The Media Scene":

    [a few paragraphs about the Oscars, and then...]  If genre films didn't
    sweep the Oscars, they're obviously going to do far better when the
    Saturn Awards are handed out by the Academy of Science Fiction,
    Fantasy, and Horror Films in a televised ceremony next Halloween.
    Nominated for Best Science Fiction film are:
        The Hidden
        Innerspace
        Masters of the Universe
        Predator
        Robocop
        The Running Man
    Best Fantasy Film nominees:
        Batteries Not Included
        Date With an Angel
        Harry and the Hendersons
        The Living Daylights
        The Princess Bride
        The Witches of Eastwick
    Comments on Willow: The 200 plus special effects are reported to be
    terrific, though comments by exhibitors after viewing the film ranged
    from raves to "no comment."  Some were puzzled by the projected target
    audience, suggesting the movie is too scary for kids and not hip enough
    for teenagers.  There were also complaints that some of the characters
    seemed similiar to those in the Star Wars films. [This was written
    before release of the movie. ek]

    "Friday the 13th: The Series" will upgrade to prime time in 60% of the
    country next season.  The show is NOT an anthology and uses continuing
    characters.  Both Friday the 13th and "The War of the Worlds" are being
    shot in Canada with a heavy reliance on Canadian writers.

    The lead for "The Fly 2", will be Eric Stoltz, who played Rocky in
    "Mask".

    "The Hollywood Reported" notes, that Bakshi Productions holds the
    rights to "Blade Runner" and "hopes to make this into an animated
    primetime series under Viacom".

    Principal photography for the new James Bond film, "License Revoked",
    is set to start in Mexico City in mid-July, thence to Key West,
    Florida, and back to London.  Picture will once again star Timothy
    Dalton, with John Glen directing (he's directed four previous Bonds).
    Release date is set for Summer of '89.

    In the "funny" video-releases department, he mentions: New World Video,
    a major supplier of genre "B" movies, is releasing "Hell Comes to
    Frogtown" ("Trapped in a nuclear wasteland, surrounded by mutants, Sam
    Hell has a mission...to fertilize as many women as possible").  It
    stars Roddy Piper, "legendary rival of Hulk Hogan".  In case you think
    New World is going soft, they're also releasing "Slugs", an R-rated
    gross-out ("carnivorous slugs are killing the people of Ashton!")
    starring nobody you ever heard of before.


Coverage of science fiction in Poland, Yugoslavia, Germany, Japan, and
China.

[And this, for those who have been writing about translations of books,
etc., is an excerpt of a letter to Locus from Robert Silverberg]:
   "I understand that my novel "Dying Inside" has won a major Yugoslavian
   award as best translated sf book of 1987.  This is the second year in a
   row that I have been so honored in Yugoslavia: last year I received the
   Lazar Komarcic Prize -- a certificate, forwarded to me by the U.S.
   Information Service Center in Belgrade -- for my novella "Sailing to
   Byzantium".
   "Perhaps it may seem ungracious of me to react with as much irritation
   as pride to these awards; but in fact the Yugoslavs are adding honor to
   injury by bestowing them on me.  "Dying Inside" and "Sailing to
   Byzantium" were published in their country without my consent, indeed
   without my knowledge.  My attempts even to obtain copies of the
   translations have been met so far with silence.  To give an award to
   pirated material seems more of a mockery than a distinction.  ....Robert
   Silverberg

On the Locus monthly bestseller lists:
paperback #1 Seventh Son by Orson Scott Card
          #2 Guardians of the West by David Eddings
hardback  #1 King of the Murgos by David Eddings
          #3 Red Prophet by Orson Scott Card
Who said series and megathologies aren't popular AND profitable?

Three pages of obituary and appreciations for Clifford D. Simak. [I can't
say that I was a devoted fan of Simak's, although the ones that I did like,
I liked a LOT (such as "Way Station", of course, and "Time and Again").

Many pages for the Heinlein obituary.  One interesting [to me] point in
it was about the Charles Manson/"Stranger in a Strange Land" fiasco.
I had heard the story that Manson had read Stranger, and was so taken
by it that he claimed to have patterned his group after it.  What I had
not heard, that was mentioned in the obituary, was that:
   Unable to refute the Manson story at the time, Heinlein later hired
   a lawyer to interview Manson in jail.  It turned out that Manson had
   never heard of Heinlein, had never read Stranger, in fact read few
   books at all and was barely literate.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 9 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 239

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Ballard & Biggle & Bradley (3 msgs) &
                       Delany & Gibson (3 msgs) & Heinlein &
                       May (2 msgs) & Author Request &
                       An Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 88 23:30:06 GMT
From: flatline!erict@tness1.sw1e.swbt.com (j eric townsend)
Subject: Attn J.G. Ballard fans

RE/Search #8/9 is on/about J.G. Ballard.
(From the RE/Search catalog):

A comprehensive special on this supremely relevant science fiction writer.
Long interviews on many topics; key writings and rare short stories; a
biography; bibliography; illustrations.  8-1/2 x 11 with over 125 photos,
176 pages. RE/Search Publications; 20 Romolo St., Suite B; San Fran, CA
94133.

From the Table of Contents:

Two interviews with JGB, one with Martin Bax.

Fiction: Myths of the Near Future, excerpt from Crash, Notes Toward a
Mental Breakdown, The Atrocity Exhibition, The Index, Why I Want to Fuck
Ronald Reagan, Plan For the Assassination of Jacqueline Kennedy, Sixty
Minute Zoom.

Some nonfiction, including Killing Time Should Be Prime Time TV and a short
piece by William S. Burroughs.

A Biography.

Some criticisms, including WS Burroughs.

Collages, quotations, and What I Believe by Ballard

Now, I get to read.... :-)

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston,Tx 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 88 13:07:56 GMT
From: kerog@eneevax.umd.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Lloyd Biggle Jr.

   Have any of you people out there read anything by Lloyd Biggle Jr.?  I
admit I read most of his books while I was in my early teens, but I think
they are very high quality.  Most of them are science fiction / mystery
mixes, a combination which he pulls off very well, I think.  Anyway, the
books are very hard to find; there will be maybe one or two paperbacks per
used book store and one or two hardbacks in each good library.  It's been a
while since I read them last, so they might be a bit juvvy (is that how you
spell it? The short form of juvenile, I mean), but I liked them a lot at
the time.  Here are some of the titles:

   Monument
   Silence is Deadly
   The Light That Never Was
   The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets
   The World Menders
   The Fury out of Time
   Galaxy (short stories, I think I have the title right)
   All the Colors of Darkness

There are a couple more whose titles I can't currently recall.  I am
curious to know what you think of him.

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 88 18:23:15 GMT
From: elwood@cfa250.harvard.edu (Elwood)
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

karpov@reed.UUCP writes:
> I have recently been told that Marion Zimmer Bradley is not just another
> writer of myth/quest type fantasy.  (I don't know why I thought she was.
> Bad covers on her paperbacks, perhaps.)
> 
> Could someone point out some of her better (more acclaimed) works?

Personally I LOVE all of her Darkover books-(a loose collection of stories
dealing with the complex society of Darkover, a planet rediscoverd by
Terran ships after 1000 years on its own) The Heritage of Hastur and
Thendara House are pretty good examples, some of her non-Darkover books are
quite good too!

For example The Mists of Avalon(Arturian Legend story) I like her writing
because her women characters are often quite strong, independent and
free... (example-the Comi Letzi or Free Amazons)

Also unlike most SF writers she doesn't ALWAYS have the main character some
macho dude who is SAVING women (really we don't need to be saved, we can do
it ourselves) or fighting ugly alien monsters on some planet. Her male
characters are often sensitive, warm and caring, and quite frankly can
surprise you! (read up on Regis Hastur)

Elisha
Elwood@cfa250.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 88 20:29:50 GMT
From: april@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (April J. Weisman)
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

All of her Darkover books are good, although some of the really early ones
you can tell are her first attempts at writing.  Besides the ones Elisha
mentioned ("Thendara House" and "The Heritage of Hastur"), some of my
peronal favorites are "Two to Conquer", "The Forbidden Tower",
"Stormqueen!", and "Hawkmistress!".  Wonderful, wonderful books.

Enjoy!

April J. Weisman
HB 390 Dartmouth Clg 
Hanover NH, 03755    
603-643-7727
april@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
{decvax ihnp4 harvard}!dartvax!eleazar!april

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 88 01:36:54 GMT
From: operjw@gen.uvm.edu (Jan Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

karpov@reed.UUCP (Just Ian) writes:
> I have recently been told that Marion Zimmer Bradley is not just another
> writer of myth/quest type fantasy.  (I don't know why I thought she was.
> Bad covers on her paperbacks, perhaps.)
> 
> Could someone point out some of her better (more acclaimed) works?

   I must admit, I am not a Bradley devote, I came across her in reference
to my favorite fantasy/myth/historical fiction topic: King Arthur.
   _The Mists of Avalon_ is an incredible book.  If you enjoy Arthurian
Romance by all means read it!  This re-telling of the tale is from a whole
new view-point.  (Some say it is a feminist book: I saw it as the struggle
between old/new and Christianity/Druidism.)  It is totally unlike the
watered-down children's versions which end with the Sword in the Stone,
rather it is a tale of REAL people, and an age-old magic.
   For example, the Merlin one typically thinks of is the T.H. White
version: a goofy wizard with a dunce cap and a talking owl.  Bradley gives
us a Druidian priest whose title is Merlyn, a man who doesn't need gimmicks
to prove his power.
   I'm sorry about the breathlessness/long-windedness but this book is
certainly on my top-ten list.

Jan Wilkinson
EMBA Computer Facility
252 Votey Bldg.
University of Vermont
Burlington, Vt. 05405
(802) 656-2926
operjw@uvm-gen@uvm.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 88 19:38:44 GMT
From: Martin-Charles@cs.yale.edu (Charles Martin)
Subject: Delany

hogge@mips (John Hogge) writes:
>   I much prefered Delany's "Triton", which also might be counted as
>cyberpunk.

...but why degrade /Triton/ to this level?  (Oddly enough, upon reading the
first line of /Neuromancer/ I thought of the sensory-shield over Tethys.
This after reading /Triton/ once in 1976!  "Jacking in," of course,
immediately evoked /Nova/'s "sockets.")

For those who enjoyed /The Motion of Light in Water/, I recommend you track
down a copy of /Empire Star/ to compare with the last sections of the book.
Even more interesting is to look at Marilyn Hacker's /Separations/ and
/Presentation Piece/ collections, the first of which contains "Prism and
Lens" and "Separations," and the second of which contains "The Navigators."
All these poems provide a different reflection of the events described in
/TMoLiW/.

Now I need to read /Dahlgren/ again.

Charles Martin
INTERNET: martin@cs.yale.edu
BITNET: martin@yalecs
UUCP: {cmcl2,harvard,decvax}!yale!martin

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 88 06:28:07 GMT
From: flatline!erict@tness1.sw1e.swbt.com (j eric townsend)
Subject: A Review of _Mona Lisa Overdrive_, by William Gibson

A hacked together review prepared around 0100hrs before I start a paper on
French symbolist poets.  I wonder if the prof would accept this instead....

	   A Review of _Mona Lisa Overdrive_, by William Gibson
			    by J. Eric Townsend
			   (erict@flatline.UUCP)

   With _Mona Lisa Overdrive_, Gibson has finished the "sprawl" series in
fine style.  _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ has its weaknesses as well, but as a
whole it equals both _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_.

   _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ is less hardware oriented than its predecessors
while more people-oriented.  Character development is relatively strong
(compared to _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_); and the characters Gibson
uses are much more diverse: a prostitute, a hardware hacker, an artist, the
daughter of a yakuza lord, etc.  Hardware isn't as important (and isn't
needed as much) because of the relative abundance of characters and their
intrinsic intrest value to the reader.

   The hardware that exists is more "realistic" -- I didn't notice any
major contradictions, at least -- than the earlier books.  A couple of
minor plot devices, while seemingly original, are based on current-day
usages of technology.  (A somewhat oblique reference to Survival Research
Laboratories comes immediately to mind.)

   Enjoyability.  A great part of my infatuation with _Neuromancer_ was
related to the style and subject of the book.  Whether or not Gibson knew
what a modem was for was irrelevant while I was reading _Neuromancer_.
_Count Zero_ was slower paced than _Neuromancer_, because it depended on a
different subject and style -- one that did not lend itself to the slick,
glossy sleaze and speed of _Neuromancer_.  It was still as good, however,
and it still dealt with the same basic subject, but from a different angle.
_Mona Lisa Overdrive_, likewise, deals with the Sprawl, AI's, and the
natural progression of intelligence (among other things), but from a
different angle.

   Gibson should have reached a bit farther, I feel, as the difference
between _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ and _Count Zero_ is not near the difference
between _Count Zero_ and _Neuromancer_.  Gibson has shown drastic
improvement in his work before -- compare "The Gernsback Continuum" with
"New Rose Hotel".  I think he sloughed off by not going the extra step with
_Mona Lisa Overdrive_.  Maybe he was distracted with the Alien III script,
the "New Rose Hotel" script, and his work with Shirley.  If that *is* the
case, I wish he'd work on one project at a time, putting everything he had
into the one product, rather than spread his energy over several projects.

   Summary: If you liked _Neuromancer_, _Count Zero_ or _Burning Chrome_,
odds are you'll like _Mona Lisa Overdrive_.  If you're not a Gibson fan,
wait for the paperback or borrow a hardback -- you may like still like
_Mona Lisa Overdrive_ because of its moderate divergence from Gibson's
earlier work.

   I hate trying to write reviews without giving out spoilers.  They always
end up rather bland.... :-)

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston,Tx 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 88 19:48:38 GMT
From: littlei!sdp@omepd.intel.com (sdp)
Subject: Re: A Review of _Mona Lisa Overdrive_, by William Gibson

erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) writes:
>Summary: If you liked _Neuromancer_, _Count Zero_ or _Burning Chrome_,
>odds are you'll like _Mona Lisa Overdrive_.  If you're not a Gibson fan,
>wait for the paperback or borrow a hardback [ ... ]

I agree completely.  After n months of anxious waiting, and the bother of
having a copy imported from the UK, I found the book a little
disappointing.  It's still worth reading, just don't expect it to be a
masterpiece.

Scott Peterson
OMSO Software Engineering
Intel,  Hillsboro OR
sdp@sdp.hf.intel.com
uunet!littlei!foobar!sdp!sdp

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 88 01:11:45 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer: why do you like it?

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) writes:
> Cause the hero is a burnt out computer programmer, of course.

I beg to differ... there is no indication in Neuromancer that Case ever
wrote a line of code... instead he mostly used stolen cartridges to break
security systems. He's more like the 21st century equivalent of the kids
who trade calling card numbers on BBSes.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 88 09:46:52 GMT
From: pgb@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk
Subject: Heinlein's Starship Troopers: power armour

Does anyone know whether the power armour, which features so strongly in
Heinlein's Starship Troopers, was a completely new idea, or whether there
was some precedent? Does anyone have any comments on the practicality of
power armour? Any other (recommended) stories using the idea?

Thanks

Paul Blackwell
pgb@maths.nott.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 88 22:27:23 GMT
From: fortune!lambert@hplabs.hp.com (George Lambert)
Subject: Re: Julian May

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
> Speaking of Julian May, was anyone else disappointed that the Pleistocene
> novels didn't end up with an "All you Zombies" type timeloop involving
> the whole human race?  

No, I wasn't disappointed with that at all, especially if you read
Intervention.

I do, however, have a great amount of curiosity about Felice's role in the
next trilogy, since I think I have a fairly good idea about what Marc is
going to be doing.

Thanks to all of you for the help with the title The Non-Born King.  My
mind slipped but I've gotten some strong redactive help since then.

Til the next time

George

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 88 16:48:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Julian May

Regarding the Pliocene Saga:

I enjoyed the series very much, but it felt like two different series to
me.  (Some spoilers follow.)

The first two volumes had the intrigue of slowly discovering what that heck
is going on, and who all the different people and factions are, and their
relationships.  As things were winding up towards the climactic games at
the end of _The Golden Torc_, I was so excited I could hardly contain
myself -- there were about half a dozen powerful groups and individuals
with their goals to accomplish, and I could hardly wait to see how they
would work out.  But then when Felice popped the cork on the Mediterranean
and let in the ocean, it also deflated a lot of my excitement as well --
all those factions were about to be made moot.

One other aspect I enjoyed a lot, which wasn't deflated, was the mythic
overtones rampant in the books.  I was especially pleased that the myths
were not redone verbatim, but instead were echoed, having a more powerful
effect.

The latter two books were felt quite different.  The humans took the center
stage of controlling the action, and the mythic aspects and slowly revealed
intrigue were not as strong.  At first I was disappointed, but I learned to
take the books for what they were, and there were some different things to
enjoy.  One was the feeling that these two volumes seemed to be exploring a
Catholic view of salvation (I'm not Catholic and I don't know if May is, so
I could be mistaken).  Another was the surprise of having many of my
earlier conceptions reversed -- eg. at first I was rooting for one of the
warring races and Felice, later for the other race and their king.  Mark
was an enigmatic fellow whose stand seemed to change with time.

Did others have a similar reaction?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 88 14:35:11 GMT
From: encore!markb@bu-cs.bu.edu (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Looking for title and author

   On finding out that I read a lot of SF, my boss asked me if I could
identify the title and author of a novel he'd read a few years ago.  I drew
a blank, so I'm hoping someone out there can help.

   As he described it to me, the novel involves the attempts by a human
exploration team to communicate with a newly discovered alien race.  Humans
can't survive on the surface of the planet (high gravity?  high atmospheric
pressure?  I'm not sure), so all contact is through remote probes.  The
dominant life form on the plant is described as resembling mobile lily
pads.  As part of the communication effort, the humans start transmitting
down the contents of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.  The effort is further
complicated by the fact that the aliens live at a *much* faster rate than
humans (one second to us is equivalent to several years for them), and the
novel covers their development from the stone age level to something far
more advanced.

   That's all I have.  Any takers?  

   Thanks in advance.

Mark Bernstein
Encore Computer

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 88 19:52:13 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Looking for title and author

markb@encore.UUCP (Mark Bernstein) writes:
>As he described it to me, the novel involves the attempts by a human
>exploration team to communicate with a newly discovered alien race. ...
>As part of the communication effort, the humans start transmitting down
>the contents of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.  The effort is further
>complicated by the fact that the aliens live at a *much* faster rate than
>humans (one second to us is equivalent to several years for them), and the
>novel covers their development from the stone age level to something far
>more advanced.

The last part I think nails it down:

   R L Forward: Dragon's Egg

There is also a sequel, called Starquake.  The aliens live on a neutron
star, which is pretty inhospitable to humans.  They live a lot faster than
us because they are made of condensed matter and run by nucleonic reactions
rather than chemical ones.  Interesting books, reminiscent of Hal Clement's
more exotic locales.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #240
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 15 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 240

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Benford & Brooks & Chalker (2 msgs) &
                       Eddings & Haldeman & Pournelle &
                       Schoell & Cordwainer Smith &
                       Paul O. Williams

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 88 16:30:28 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Gregory Benford triligy...

>  I have just finished Gregory Benford's "In The Ocean Of Night", and
>"Across The Sea Of Suns".  I am looking for third book of the trilogy, but
>don't know the title, or if it has come out yet.  If someone could answer
>these questions I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks.

His latest book is "Great Sky River" (Bantam hardcover). It isn't strictly
speaking part of the trilogy, but is closely related by being set in the
distant future of that universe.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 88 18:29:48 GMT
From: friedson@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Barry Friedson)
Subject: Shanara

   I have just started reading The Sword of Shanara and have read the
Elfstone of Shanara previously.  I know that Wishsong was recently
released.  I know these books are kind of old but could someone out there
review them for me.  I enjoyed Elfstones and am enjoying Sword.  Should I
read Wishsong??  No spoilers please!!!!!

  Email would be fine.

Barry Friedson
friedson@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 88 14:27:32 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Jack Chalker info wanted

dnichols@mips.csc.ti.com (Dan Nichols) writes:
> A while back someone posted a list of Jack Chalker's novels and a
> cross-index of the various themes in them, such as which books had
> transformations as a theme, etc.

What, you mean there's a Jack Chalker book out there that *doesn't* have
transformations as a theme? Please, let me know... the guy writes very good
trash, but the eternal Jack Chalker "tough competant woman/man gets turned
into voluptuous love slave and likes it" theme is just too much to wade
through more than a couple of times.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 88 18:32:31 GMT
From: cg-atla!duane@swan.ulowell.edu (Andrew Duane)
Subject: Jack Chalker Book List

The (edited) list of Jack Chalker books, as taken from the back of the book
"Dance Band on the Titanic". I have abbreviated some long descriptions of
the books and their publications to save space.  For more information, I
suggest reading the story collection (it is worth it anyway!).


 A JUNGLE OF STARS
   Ballantine/Del Rey, 1976.
   Editions Michel Albin, Paris, 1979

 MIDNIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS
   Del Rey, 1977
   Penguin Books, U.K., 1981
   Goldmann, Munich, 1978 (in German)

 THE WEB OF THE CHOZEN
   Del Rey, 1978
   Wilhelm Hein Verlag, Munich, 1981 (in German)
   A highly rewritten Hebrew edition (Tel Aviv, 1981)

 EXILES AT THE WELL OF SOULS
   Del Rey, 1978
   Penguin Books, U.K., 1982
   Goldmann, Munich, 1979 (in German)
   Danish, Dutch, Italian editions now appearing

 QUEST FOR THE WELL OF SOULS
   Del Rey, 1978
   foreign editions as above

 AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER
   Del Rey, 1979
   German Edition, Goldmann, 1983
   French Edition, 1987
   optioned to the movies

 A WAR OF SHADOWS
   Ace: An Analog Book, 1979
   Reprinted, Ace, 1984
   optioned to the movies

 DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW
   Del Rey, 1979, 1982
   Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German as Der Tourister Planet)

 THE RETURN OF NATHAN BRAZIL
   Del Rey, 1980
   foreign editions as other Well of Souls books above

 THE DEVIL'S VOYAGE
   Doubleday, 1980
   sold to Critic's Choice, NYC

 TWILIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS
   Del Rey, 1980
   foreign editions as other Well of Souls books above

 LILTH: A SNAKE IN THE GRASS
   Del Rey, 1981
   Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German)

 CERBERUS: A WOLF IN THE FOLD
   Del Rey, 1982
   Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German)
   British Edition pending

 THE IDENTITY MATRIX
   Timescape: Pocket Books, 1982
   Reprinted, Baen Books, 1986
   Sold to Goldmann, Munich

 CHARON, A DRAGON AT THE GATE
   Del Rey, 1982
   Goldmann, Munich, 1984 (in German)
   British Edition pending

 THE FOUR LORDS OF THE DIAMOND
   The Science Fiction Book Club, 1983
   Contains all four "Diamond" books, slightly rewritten
   British and other foreign editions pending

 MEDUSA: A TIGER BY THE TAIL
   Del Rey, 1983
   Goldmann, Munich, 1985 (in German)
   British Edition pending

 THE RIVER OF THE DANCING GODS
   Del Rey, 1984
   British Edition, Futura, 1985

 DEMONS OF THE DANCING GODS
   Del Rey, 1984
   British Edition, Futura, 1986

 SPIRITS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR
   Tor Books, 1984
   Series sold to Holland and Denmark for 1987-88 publication

 EMPIRES OF FLUX AND ANCHOR
   Tor Books, 1984

 DOWNTIMING THE NIGHT SIDE
   Tor Book, 1985

 MASTERS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR
   Tor Books, 1985

 VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS
   Del Rey, 1985
   British Edition, Futura, 1986

 THE MESSIAH CHOICE
   St. Martin's/Blue Jay, 1985 (hardcover)
   Tor Books, 1985 (mass paperback)

 THE BIRTH OF FLUX AND ANCHOR
   Tor Books, 1985

 CHILDREN OF FLUX AND ANCHOR
   Tor Books, 1986

 LORDS OF THE MIDDLE DARK
   Del Rey, 1986
   Series sold to Hodder/NEL, Britain for 1987-88 publication
   Series sold to Italy, no publication information yet

 PIRATES OF THE THUNDER
   Del Rey, 1987
   British Edition, Hodder/NEL
   Italian Edition coming

 THE LABYRINTH OF DREAMS
   Tor Books, 1987

 THE SHADOW DANCERS
   Tor Books, 1987

 WARRIORS OF THE STORM
   Del Rey, 1987

 WHEN THE CHANGEWINDS BLOW
   Ace/Putnam, 1987
   British Edition pending

 MASKS OF THE MARTYRS
   Del Rey, 1988
   British Edition, Hodder/NEL
   Italian Edition coming

 RIDERS OF THE WINDS
   Ace/Putnam, 1988
   British Edition pending

 DANCE BAND ON THE TITANIC
   Del Rey, 1988

 THE MAZE IN THE MIRROR
   Tor Books, 1988

 THE WAR OF THE MAELSTROM
   Ace/Putnam, 1988

 THE DEMONS AT RAINBOW BRIDGE
   Ace/Putnam, 1989

 SWORDS OF THE DANCING GODS
   Del Rey, 1989

Andrew L. Duane
Compugraphic Corp.
200 Ballardvale St.           
Wilmington, Mass. 01887       
Mail Stop 200II-3-5S          
w:(508)-658-5600 X5993
h:(603)-434-7934
decvax!cg-atla!duane

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 19:54:27 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: The Demon Lord of Karanda *SPOILER*

It's out - I've read it - here are the spoilers.

Slam bang, bang, bang, slam.  Action, action, action.  Which is to say that
this volume has a lot of action.

Volume II ended with the company being captured by Zakath's troops.  Volume
III starts out relatively slowly with them being escorted by an honor guard
to Zakath.  Zakath and the company come to terms, more or less, and they
all go back to Mal Zeth in Mallorea.  Zakath wants to keep them on a short
leash until his troops get back and then they will all go deal with
assorted uprisings.  They escape and wander across Mallorea to the
accompaniment of lots of violent events and sundry surprises.

We get a map of Mallorea, which is mostly inhabited by branches of the
seventh race -- Melcenes, Dalasians, and Karands.  The Angaraks are mostly
in the west of Mallorea.  The Karands are kin to the Morindrim.  In the
aftermath of Torak's death a demon lord and an army of demons has been
raised by Harakan.  Urvon has gone mad and believes himself to be the new
God of Angarak.  Harakan is killed by Liselle (using Zith).  They are
closing in on Zandramas.  Zakath is getting the hots for Cyradis (!).  Now
for sundry spoilers from the past.

Liselle seduces Silk.  She is Hunter, and is the Huntress of the company.
She was lying about having orders to keep watch on Silk.  Nothing has been
settled about the remaining members of the company.  Nothing is settled
about who is to die.  Adara's rose is a universal cure for poisons.
Nothing is given that indicates who set the malediction on the Mrin codex.
Vella and Beldin's courtship procedes apace, and a very peculiar courtship
it is too.  Eriond plays a very small role in this volume.  Poledra appears
at the end in a preliminary confrontation with Zandramas.

There are some amusing scenes.  There is a state banquet with the company
as honored guests (imagine the reactions of sundry nobles when Belgarion,
Polgara, and Belgarath are announced as guests at an imperial Angarak
banquet.)  Beldin goes in disguise as a juggler with an Irish brogue.

Demons are unpleasant dinner guests.

The book is a good read.  It provides a lot of setting for the remainder of
the series.  It really doesn't answer many of the questions raised in
earlier books.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 05:59:52 GMT
From: pglask@umbio.miami.edu (Peter Glaskowsky)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #239

ENPAIN@lsuvm.BITNET (Kackie Paine) says:
> In reply to the query about books using the power armor motif -- Joe
> Haldeman wrote a satiric blast of the Vietnam war and, not
> coincidentally, Heinlein's macho view of war and men, in /The Forever
> War./ Excellent.

Not to belabor the point, but Haldeman did not intend to write a "satiric
blast of... Heinlein's macho view of war and men". He's said so himself.
The second purpose of _The Forever War_ was to comment on the importance of
sensible, goal-oriented uses of military force.

The first purpose, of course, was to _entertain_.

Now, if you want an honest-to-gosh "satiric blast", try Harrison's _Bill,
the Galactic Hero_. That's a good book, too, as long as you take it in the
spirit in which it was written.

ARPA: pglask%umbio.miami.edu@umigw.miami.edu
uucp: uunet!gould!umbio!pglask

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 14:31:33 GMT
From: kerog@eneevax.umd.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: A Step Farther Out

   First of all, if any of you people out there haven't yet read A Step
Farther Out, by Jerry Pournelle, run, don't walk, to the nearest bookstore
or library and get a copy.  If you can't find a copy there, beg, borrow, or
steal a copy from a friend.  It is probably the most important work of
non-fiction you will ever read.

   Now.  I was just rereading Pournelle's classic (for the second time),
and I got to thinking, as I do every time I read the book, that this
country would be substantially better off if we could get people of
influence to read it.  I was thinking, mind you, in most general terms,
wondering if it would be possible to start some sort of campaign with the
goal of sending copies of the book to each Senator, the presidential
candidates, and other important people in government, in the hopes of
getting them to read it.  Admittedly, it is unlikely that a Senator will
take the time to read the book straight off, but if, say, a hundred copies
appeared on his doorstep he would probably at least get some people on his
staff to read it, and report to him.  When he (or she) gets the report, he
might actually take the time to read it himself.

   It strikes me that Pournelle makes the case for the space program more
intelligently than just about anyone else.  If anyone's writing could
influence Congress, I think it is his.

   What do you people think?  Would it work?

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 13:29:26 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: SAURIAN by William Schoell

			SAURIAN by William Schoell
			   Leisure, 1988, (ISBN)
		      A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     Every once in a while you find a real jaw-dropper of a novel, a novel
that is compelling reading just because you cannot believe that anyone
would commit such a stupid idea to paper.  Well, the most amazing novel I
have read for a good long time is SAURIAN by William Schoell.  It's sort of
a horror novel about a dinosaur stomping and eating people today.  "Fun
stuff," I told myself, "Godzilla for adults, right?"  Well, it might have
been.  But realize that the author did not make it just any dinosaur; he
invented his own breed, a Gargantasaurus.  Not absurd enough?  Okay, how's
this: it is supposed to be the largest animal that ever lived and it walks
like an iguana.  No true dinosaur that ever lived walked like an iguana,
but this one does.  It smashes people, then licks them off its paws.  Not
weird enough?  It's not just a dinosaur, it's a were-dinosaur.  The thing
changes back and forth from an animal hundreds of feet high to a human.
Ready for more?  It has this shape-changing ability because it is really
from outer space and it gets its mass to grow from energy like sunlight.
Can you take a little more?  We are told all this only because one woman
knows all about the Gargantasaurus and she knows it because she has a race
memory of the creatures.  She is descended from alien were-dinosaurs and
her race memory tell her about their powers.  This is the silliest novel I
have read since THE FAMINE by John Creasey.  In that book a worldwide
famine was caused by a scourge of rabbits, but they turned out to be
millions of little men in little rabbit suits.  Honest!  That may have been
sillier, but I doubt it.  You can decide.

     We get to see inside the mind of a were-dinosaur.  We share precious
family memories like that all-important first transformation to a dinosaur.
Daddy--in human form--took son out swimming and arranged for son to nearly
drown.  To save himself, son must become a dinosaur.  You know, you never
forget that first time you turn into a prehistoric animal with a head "the
size of 20 bull elephants."

     Then there all all the wonderful new options dinosaurhood brings.
Like in making love, you can do it the traditional way or transform and
literally eat your partner.

     Yes, at last there is a new horror writer who rivals Guy N. Smith,
author of THE SUCKING PIT and the man-eating crab novels.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 19:25:12 GMT
From: austin@sun.com (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Norstrilia & Dune

I have just finished re reading Cordwainer Smith's Norstrilia and, because
of the recent postings concerning Dune, have decided to post my
observations of the two novels. Mild Spoilers May Follow.

Norstrilia was published posthumously in 1975. It was first published as
two separate novels in the early 60's: The Planet Buyer and The
Underpeople. In it we find:

   1) A planet (Norstirlia) whose inhabitants use giant animals
      (sheep) who produce an immortality drug (stroon).

   2) It can only be produced on this planet

   3) The planet is very, very water poor.

   4) It's inhabitants, due to a long journey of hardships on
      a long series of other very harsh planets, have become
      almost invincible fighters and have adopted a very austere
      lifestyle.

   5) The story is told around a young man who has come of age
      by passing the test of adulthood in his culture; a test
      which by failing, would result in his death from a poison
      needle. He becomes the most powerful person in the galaxy.

Now, when I first read Norstrilia, I went running to my bookcase to compare
copyright dates. Dune had come out at about the same time, so I didn't
think either Smith or Herbert had read the other's work. To me, it seemed
as if these were just ideas who's time had come- independently discovered
by different people.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 88 02:55:29 GMT
From: mcdchg!motmpl!ellymae!anasazi!duane@gatech.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: _The Pelbar Cycle_ by Paul O. Williams (mild spoiler)

Time: near future

Place: Earth

SF elements: Post nuclear war Earth, rediscovery of some technology

Introduction: Many generations after some unspecified nuclear disaster,
life on the North American continent is fragmented into a number of
different cultures. A few of the groups have maintained some level of
technology; most haven't.

Main storylines: explorations out from the Pelbar heartland, rediscovering
the US; making alliances with other cultures; individual adventures.

Critique: As a rule, I don't care for post-WWIII novels, but this series is
wonderful. It doesn't dwell on the cause of downfall of civilization; that
happened so far in the past that people don't know or care what happened,
so I didn't encounter the expected cliches.  The main emphasis is on
character development, and the main theme is the effort of a few
far-sighted individuals to try to make the different societies get along
with each other (apropos for any age). The author is successful in both
aspects. The characters are very well drawn: they seem real, they evoke
sympathy, and their behavior isn't predictable.  Various interesting
adventures, largely accomplished without support from the leaders of the
groups, carry the theme along. Except for the 7th (the last) book, it's not
necessary to read the books in order. There's one story per book, and
though the events in one take place after the events in the previous one,
the carryover is primarily in terms of background: the stories are quite
different. (But save the final book for last.)

Books in the series: _The Breaking of Northwall_, _The Ends of the Circle_,
_The Dome in the Forest_, _The Fall of the Shell_, _An Ambush of Shadows_,
_The Song of the Axe_, and _The Sword of Forbearance_.

Rating: 3.5 out of 4.0 - very, very good. I'd recommend these even to
people who don't ordinarily read SF.  

Duane Morse
(602) 861-7609
...!noao!mcdsun!nud!anasaz!duane

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 15 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 241

Today's Topics:

	      Films - Phantasm II (5 msgs) & Short Circuit &
                      The Bermuda Depths & Star Trek V &
                      The Man Who Fell To Earth (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 20:33:58 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: PHANTASM II

				PHANTASM II
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  PHANTASM II is a parasite of a film
     that does nothing to advance the director's planned trilogy
     and only exploits the popularity of its predecessor.  It
     panders to a teenage audience by making a teenager the only
     thinking character and by throwing in bits of other recent
     successful films.  The parts of the film that are coherent
     enough to make sense don't; it's all spectacle and no
     characters or logic.  Rating: -2.

     Nine years ago there was a revolution of sorts in horror films brought
about by advances in makeup technology.  The idea of prosthetic makeup
meant that you could show things on screen that could only be shown poorly
on screen--if at all--in the past.  If you wanted to show a man turn into a
werewolf-monster on screen, you did not have to resort to pieced-together
double exposures that had been the best way to handle the effect since the
1940s.  Pneumatic air bladders and mechanical effects allowed realistic-
looking transformation effects on screen.  With a concentration on new
effects technology many low-budget horror films were made in a race to show
the public new sights and effects.  Artistically it was a disaster, as many
of the films had little to offer but visual effects, many of which were
intended to gross out the audience.  For every CAT PEOPLE or THE HOWLING,
there were a dozen films that were purely a waste of time with no concepts
behind them, no artistry, and a generally weak script.  Somewhat above
average was Don Coscarelli's PHANTASM.  It sold itself on a gross-out
special effect (a sort of flying drill best not described), but all the
strange things happening at the film's mortuary--some not frightening, but
very strange for a horror film--turned out to make sense in terms of a more
interesting science fantasy premise.  Coscarelli has said that PHANTASM was
only the first part of a trilogy that would expand on the initial premise.
PHANTASM II is the second film.  By the looks of it, it may be the last.

     Thematically, it is hard to believe Coscarelli is planning a trilogy
because PHANTASM II does not advance the story at all.  There is virtually
nothing, certainly nothing of value,that is in the sequel that was not in
the first film.  Mike, who was a boy in the first film and is nineteen in
this film (now he is played by James Le Gros) returns with his adult
sidekick Reggie (played by Reggie Bannister) to play Rambo at whatever
mortuary the Tall Man (still played by Angus Scrimm) has currently set up
shop in.  Since Mike is now nineteen, they have to add a sex interest for
him and so they crudely add Liz (played by Paula Irvine) by claiming that
for years she has been psychically linked to Mike and now they are finally
meeting.  Clever plotting!

     PHANTASM II is a very poor piece of storytelling.  It assumes the
viewer has seen the first *and* remembers it.  After nine years, it was not
easy.  Even with a liberal piece of re-used footage, much of the film is
incoherent and does not explain what is going on.

     Unlike the first film, PHANTASM II very consciously attempts to appeal
to a teenage audience.  All the good ideas come from the teenager, who
apparently is the only character who thinks.  There is a conscious effort
to infuse the plot with heavy handweapons--sawed-off shotguns and flame
throwers--popular with a teenage audience.  There are also more visceral
special effects.  The first film pretty much contented itself with showing
mustard-colored blood.  PHANTASM II's effects of showing creatures coming
out of human bodies and machines burrowing in are state-of-the-art in an
effects technology that has really taken a wrong and regrettable turn.
That these effects should change so much, yet the scenes connected with the
premise of the film are so unchanged, leads one to really question
Coscarelli's values.

     The script for PHANTASM II contains a wide variety of logic flaws. The
characters get their high-tech weaponry by building it themselves one night
when they break into what is apparently a hardware store.  For reasons
unexplained no alarms go off.  Among the goods they apparently get in the
raid are shotguns and hand grenades.  I guess you really *can* get all your
hardware needs at your True Value Store!  When they are all done, being
basically honest, they drop a wad of money in the till.  That leads one to
wonder about the need to break in at all.

     We have all seen in swashbucklers the classic tense swordfight scene
in which the bad guy has the good guy down and raises his sword over his
head for the last stroke and while the sword is up, the good guy uses the
opening to go for the stomach and win.  PHANTASM II has the identical scene
with chainsaws.  Only one problem: the scene makes no sense with chainsaws.
A broadsword needs some momentum to cut; a chainsaw does not.  There is no
reason to pull back a chainsaw so that your last stroke has more momentum.

     One of the characters is in a villain's control at one point.  The
villain is about to pop her into a crematorium oven.  For no reason other
than to build tension, he starts doing other crematorium chores instead.
Then when her turn comes, he puts her on the roller track leading to the
oven and walks away.  He then is surprised to find out she just rolled
herself off the track to avoid the oven.

     There is more, and worse, to say about PHANTASM II.  But suffice it to
say that Coscarelli probably ruined his chances at a trilogy, and certainly
a lot of public interest in that trilogy, by turning out such a bad excuse
for a film.  The biggest horror fan I know fell asleep on PHANTASM II and
later said she was glad she had.  But if you have a nice comfortable bed at
home, there's no reason to go and see this film at all. Thinking about the
film I am tempted to lower it to a -3 on the -4 to +4 scale, but I will
settle for the -2 I gave it in the theater.  The only reason I said so much
about a film I would rather forget is that I had a boring car ride from
Massachusetts to New Jersey and I had to fill the time somehow.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 88 20:19:52 GMT
From: kucharsk@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (William Kucharski)
Subject: Re: PHANTASM II (Spoilers!)

******SPOILERS******

I agree with your thoughts on the film, and noticed parallels (if not
ripoffs) from the first film:

   1) The psychic female with her grandmother.  Remember the 
      grandmother and her granddaughter in the first film - who
      taught Mike "Do Not Fear" by having him put his hand in that box?

   2) The spacegate to the Tall Man's dimension.  O.K., even if Reggie
      didn't stop the spacegate in the first movie, wouldn't Mike
      remember what he had "dreamed" Reggie doing - namely, stopping
      the gate from vibrating by holding both sides (remember the 
      tuning fork analogy from the first film?).  Much neater than
      burning down the mortuary.

It was nice to see a few "in" jokes - for example, Mike was being held at
MORNINGSIDE sanitorium - the original cemetary in Phantasm I was
Morningside.

What I was not at ALL surprised at was Alchemy's really being the Tall Man.
If you remember the first film, the Tall Man was able to turn into a young
female quite readily.  I must actually say that I was pretty sure she would
be the Tall Man all along.

Notice that the doorway (no pun intended) to Phantasm III was left wide
open, as Reggie was bloody, but not dead (like when he was thrown out of
the Ice Cream Truck in the first film), and the future of Mike and Liz is
left open (as was Mike's in the first).

My FAVORITE parts of Phantasm II:

   1) It did assume you saw and REMEMBERED the first film.  It built
      on (or tried to build on) what had happened, and didn't try to
      force a summary of the first film down your throat.

   2) Two quotes from the Tall Man:

      When he is talking to the priest:
         "You think that when you die you go to heaven - wrong!
	 When you die you come to us!"

      When Liz and Mike are saying "This isn't happening - it's
	 just a dream" - the Tall Man appears and says
	 "No - it's not!"

Question: Was the portion which picked up after the end of the first film
film left out of the first film or made for Phantasm II?  The reason I ask
is that Reggie didn't seem to age until the time was the "present."  If it
was filmed for this film, it was done well.

To sum it all up, it wasn't as good as the first, but it wasn't a waste of
time, either.  I would like to see Phantasm III, but I hope it doesn't take
another nine years...

P.S.: The older Mike DOESN'T look like and older "young" Mike!  Get Michael
Baldwin back for Phantasm III!

William Kucharski
ARPA: kucharsk@uts.amdahl.com
UUCP: ...!{ames,decwrl,sun,uunet}!amdahl!kucharsk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 88 15:06:18 GMT
From: eneevax!kerog@mimsy.uucp (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Re: PHANTASM II (Spoilers!)

kucharsk@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (William Kucharski) writes:
>My FAVORITE parts of Phantasm II:
>
>1) It did assume you saw and REMEMBERED the first film.  It built
>   on (or tried to build on) what had happened, and didn't try to
>   force a summary of the first film down your throat.
>
>2) Two quotes from the Tall Man:
>
>   When he is talking to the priest:
>      "You think that when you die you go to heaven - wrong!
>      When you die you come to us!"
>
>   When Liz and Mike are saying "This isn't happening - it's
>   just a dream" - the Tall Man appears and says
>   "No - it's not!"

Are you guys serious?

The only merit that movie could possibly have is as a comedy!  It was like
Poltergeist: it has no scare power whatsoever, but if you take it right it
can be enormously funny.

I mean, come on, a duel with chainsaws?  It's ridiculous; if this were a
serious movie, Reggie would have just shot the bastard.  Also, Reggie
shoots his quadruple barreled shotgun exactly once, and then tosses it for
no apparent reason when he has been carrying two ammunition belts for the
whole movie.

Also, What the hell was the point of going into the room with the gate?  I
mean, they figured out what the door lead to, but *why* would they want to
go there?  It's not like they do anything in there except get attacked by
the tall man.

What I'm trying to say is this: if you see this movie expecting to be
scared, you will be disappointed.  If you go in expecting to have a good
laugh, you may like it.  I know the entire theater where I saw it was
cracking up.

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 88 03:25:27 GMT
From: kucharsk@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (William Kucharski)
Subject: Re: PHANTASM II (Spoilers!)

Yes, I WAS serious to a degree.  No, Phantasm II didn't SCARE me, but I
wasn't laughing hysterically through it either.  Yes, parts of it WERE
dumb, but I did enjoy the film, if for no other reason than to see the Tall
Man again.

As far as Mike's rationale for entering the room with the spacegate, it was
most likely to do something like he did in the first film - somehow close
the gate to either

   1) Trap the Tall Man in this dimension, preventing his escape

or

   2) Stop the Tall Man from having a way to transport the dwarves.

I would say that this film doesn't stand up to in-depth analysis (i.e.  the
chain saw duel), but parts of it were at least sensible, unlike your
typical Friday the 13th-type film.

I also suppose being a huge fan of the first film also helped...

William Kucharski
ARPA: kucharsk@uts.amdahl.com
UUCP: ...!{ames,decwrl,sun,uunet}!amdahl!kucharsk

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 88 17:41:56 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: PHANTASM II (Spoilers!)

kucharsk@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (William Kucharski) writes:
> It was nice to see a few "in" jokes - for example, Mike was being held at
> MORNINGSIDE sanitorium - the original cemetary in Phantasm I was
> Morningside.

I thought of it as continuity.  I figured that Morningside was the name of
the town.  A real in-joke, however, was that the body in the crematorium
scene was labled Sam Raimi, a name that struck me as familiar at the time,
but I didn't place.  Peter Reiher, of all people, rememined me that it is
Sam Raimi who made the EVIL DEAD films.  The producers of PHANTASM II may
well want Raimi dead, I think he did a far better job of making a sequel
than they did.  I am not all that keen on tongue-in-cheek horror but of the
two PHANTASMs and two EVIL DEADs, EVIL DEAD II is by far the best and
certainly the most creative.

Mark Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 88 20:24:49 GMT
From: inuxd!jody@iuvax.uucp (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: SHORT CIRCUIT 2

> 			       SHORT CIRCUIT 2
> 		       A film review by Mark R. Leeper
> 
(stuff deleted)
> variations.  In fact, with the exception of Ally Sheedy's off-screen
> voice in one scene, there are only two characters in common with the
> first film.  One is Number Five itself, now mysteriously called by
> Everyone Johnny Five;

Nothing mysterious to me.  At the end of "Short Circuit", Number Five says
he has a name.  He claims his name was Johnny, so it seems natural that he
would be called Johnny Five.

Jody

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 88 22:21:36 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: a rare film

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
> I remember seeing a movie many years ago that started out with a young
> boy and girl catching a sea turtle on a beach, carving their initials in
> its back, and them releasing it. Years later the girl turned out to be an
> adult mermaid and the turtle grew to gigantic size and started attacking
> and eating humans. At the end the mermaid was shot with a harpoon and the
> turtle dragged a black man who had tried to capture it under the sea.
> Does anyone remember the title of this film?


You are referring to the Rankin-Bass film THE BERMUDA DEPTHS.  Lots of
Japanese special effects people on that one.  Made by the same people that
made THE LAST DINOSAUR (among MANY other films).  I loved the theme to THE
BERMUDA DEPTHS.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 E. Gilbert St.	 
Muncie, IN 47305         
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 88 15:45:05 GMT
From: fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox)
Subject: Star Trek 5

I just saw an interview in today's Columbus Dispatch (perhaps the worst
newspaper in America) of a long time trekkie.  I can't remember his name,
but a quote from the interview said that he is the person who Gene
Roddenberry would call for Star Trek info/trivia.  Anyways, he mentioned in
the interview that Star Trek 5 - The Final Frontier is currently in
production, filming to start in September.

I'm not really happy about another Star Trek movie because the actors are
really getting too old to be the heroes running around saving the Galaxy
and all that.  But, I'll probably still go see it.  William Shatner is
directing, and the whole cast is returning for the new movie.  The
interviewee also said that they will probably continue to make ST movies
until one of the original actors dies.  This seems like a lousy criteria
for making movies, "ok, lets do Star Trek 17 - Kirk gets Laid, oops, have
to stop filming, Deforest Kelly past away last night..."

Richard Fox
Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence Research (LAIR)
The Ohio State University

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 88 13:20:32 GMT
From: mng@sei.cmu.edu (Marvin Germany)
Subject: The Man Who Fell To Earth

Did anyone out there see the movie "The Man Who Fell To Earth"?  I had a
good idea of what was going on in the movie until the ending! Can anyone
out explain the movie to me AFTER they killed his lawyer (Brock Peters)?

Gracias!

Marvin Germany
mg2s@andrew.cmu.edu
mng@sei.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 88 17:09:19 GMT
From: m10ux!rgr@att.att.com (Duke Robillard)
Subject: Re: The Man Who Fell To Earth

mng@ax.sei.cmu.edu.UUCP (Marvin N. Germany) writes:
>Did anyone out there see the movie "The Man Who Fell To Earth"?  I had a
>good idea of what was going on in the movie until the ending! Can anyone
>out explain the movie to me AFTER they killed his lawyer (Brock Peters)?

    Wow, was there really a plot to this movie?  I don't remember that
about it at all.  Annoying, glaring, lighting, paper-mache special effects,
bad synthesizer music, that I remember.  But a plot?  And Characters?  No,
you must be thinking of a different flick.

Duke Robillard 
AT&T Bell Labs
Murray Hill, NJ
{backbone!}att!m10ux!rgr
rgr@m10ux.ATT.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 15 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 242

Today's Topics:

		      Television - Starlost (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 88 22:01:39 GMT
From: stern@hc.dspo.gov (michael Stern)
Subject: Re: "Starlost"

wes@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Wesley James Vokes) writes:
>>Does anyone out there remember "The Starlost". 
>
>Didn't Harlan Ellison create this or something? I remember reading in one
>of his books about the terrible experience he had with this series. Can
>anyone confirm/deny this?

Ellison spoke for our Cum Laude society a few years ago, and spent a fair
amount of time talking about the Starlost.  He wrote it, but as so often
seems to happen with his stuff, it became totally polluted.  The producers
didn't pay any attention to scientific reality or the themes of the
original script.  In the end, the Ellison demanded that his name be removed
from the series, and the it was a huge flop.

The supreme irony was that the _original_ script ended up winning
several(?) extremely prestigious awards, just as the show was being taken
off the air.

Stern

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 88 21:42:22 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: "Starlost"

>>Does anyone out there remember "The Starlost". It was a
>>british (?) science fiction series about a BIG starship.

It was Canadian, starring (if that's the appropriate word) Kier Dullea.

>Didn't Harlan Ellison create this or something? I remember reading in one
>of his books about the terrible experience he had with this series. Can
>anyone confirm/deny this?

It was Harlan's idea. He was, for a period, story editor and chief
scriptwriter.

His book on the subject was called "Phoenix without Ashes" (I think...)
currently out of print.

When Harlan got fed up and left the series, they coerced Ben Bova to come
on board. He ended up writing a novel (The Starcrossed, just re-issued from
Tor, and a real hoot) that described a fictional version of the reality of
the Starlost -- because, I've always felt, that no publisher would believe
it had really happened that way (and also to avoid libel...). Of course,
that was long before Communion.

The best piece I've ever read on it is Bova's book -- it's especially fun
to watch the Ellison character and try to figure out which pieces in the
novel really happened, and which Bova made up.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

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Date: 10 Aug 88 04:32:41 GMT
From: ranade@pipe.cs.wisc.edu (Shrikant Ranade)
Subject: Re: "Starlost"

I wouldn't know about the series, but the scenario given seems to match
quite closely a novella (or is it novelette? A short novel, anyhow) called
_Nonstop_ by Brian Aldiss. Perhaps this was the basis for "The Starlost".

Shrikant Ranade
ranade@pipe.cs.wisc.edu

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Date: 10 Aug 88 18:33:39 GMT
From: dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: "Starlost"

Urrgh.  Gaak.  Retch.  Guffaw.  And like that...

"The Starlost" was filmed in Canada.  The original storyline was written by
Harlan Ellison, who was also hired as the series' technical advisor with
the understanding that he'd be given the chance to do a really _good_ SF
series.

It was a comedy of errors throughout.  The production company tried to make
the series on a very lean budget, using writers and production teams that
had never done SF before.  The special effects were some of the worst I've
ever seen... they make "Doctor Who" look high-budget...  and the writing
was/is one of the most ghodawful collection of cliches ever to hit the
screen.

By the time the first episode was complete, Ellison had had enough... he
resigned, and (as permitted by his standard writer's contract) required the
show's producer to remove his name from the credits and use his official,
registered nom-de-plume: "Cordwainer Bird".  As in, "for the birds".  He
uses this one to inform his friends that it's a turkey.

There are a couple of books about this:

   "Phoenix Without Ashes", by Bryant and Ellison.  This is a novelization
   of the _original_ story treatment for the pilot episode (quite different
   than what was actually filmed).  The original script won an award from
   the Writer's Guild... best new SF of the year, or something of the sort.
   The novelization is quite good... it's an enjoyable read.  Ellison
   included a forward in which he describes the origin of "The Starlost"
   and summarizes the screwups.

   "The Starcrossed", by Ben Bova.  This is a lightly-fictionalized
   retelling of the whole story; Ellison appears as "Ron Gabriel".  It's
   quite a hoot... recommended!

Ellison says "Occasionally, someone I know who hasn't heard about this
before sees the series, and phones me up to tell me how much he liked it.
I snarl and hang up."

He also says "Life in Hollywood is like a mountain of cow flop.  You climb
the mountain, to pick the one perfect rose that grows at the summit... and
when you get there, you find that you've lost your sense of smell."

Dave Platt
Coherent Thought Inc.  
3350 West Bayshore #205
Palo Alto CA 94303
(415) 493-8805
UUCP: ...!{ames,sun,uunet}!coherent!dplatt
DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com
INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 15:22:35 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: The Starlost

   The Starlost was a C.B.C. production in the early 70s developed by
Harlan Ellison who was originally told it would be a B.B.C. production. The
original script was adapted to book form by Edward Bryant and published
under the title `Pheonix Without Ashes' (availible only at cons and used
bookstores). There is also an introduction by Harlan Ellison explaining the
origin of the show and the problems encountered and why he left. It seems
to be all that needs to be said on the state television production. Of
particular note is the story about the construction of the `Back-up Bridge'
set.
   The premise is that a few hundred years in the future a natural disaster
destroys Earth, but a colony ship is sent out at sub-light speed to find a
new world to inhabit. There are several different pods connected to the
ship, each containing a different Earth culture. Sometime after the voyage
began, the ship was damaged and thrown off course. The disaster also killed
most of the ship's crew and sealed each pod off from the rest of the ship.
As time went on, each pod forgot about Earth and the fact that they were on
a ship. Each felt they were they only beings in the universe, that the sky
was metal and the sun was just a light moving across it at regular
intervals.
   Enter our hero, a young man in the Amish pod. His parents died in a fire
when he was young and he is raised by non-realtives (I think). He loves a
girl named Rachel, but another Amish boy loves her, also. The hero finds
out that there is a place behind the sky and tells the village elders. They
cast him out, but Rachel follows him. Together they explore the area beyond
the Amish pod, finding a computer access booth. The computer tells them
something of the history of the ark, Earth and the accident through various
memory modules. It also tells them that the ship is off course and heading
toward a star. The ship will plunge into the star in four or five years
(depending on how long the series lasts - according to Ellison). The vital
module containing the necessary information: 1) What actually happened to
the ship, 2) Where is the bridge, 3) How to redirect the ship is missing
from that access booth. The hero decides to find the bridge and save the
ship. Rachel is afraid, but agrees to help.
   Then, ta daa, the other Amish male arrives, sent by the elders to bring
back the wayward hero and heroine. During a fight (in the book) he loses a
hand and vows to return the two to the village as the are leaving him
behind. Eventually they meet up again and join together to save the ship.
   Each week consisted of visits to the other pods and the dangers that lay
within. Two episodes feature Walter "Chekov" Koenig (sp?) as an alien
traveller.
   Some of the episodes have been spliced together into two hour movies and
sold into syndication, including the Chekov episodes.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 18:19:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.com (Lawrence C. Smith)
Subject: Re: "Starlost"

tom@ISF.Unisys.COM () writes:
>Does anyone out there remember "The Starlost"?

YES!  I remember that one!  John Colicos (the Klingon governor of Organia
and Baltar on "BattleStar Galactica" was in one of the episodes.

The ship was called ARK, it had blown one of its reactors and was now "out
of control" and headed straight for a sun.  Harlan Ellison was involved
with the creation of the series, but he was so pissed by the network
emasculation of his story, (including, I'm sure, the hokey "ship is going
to crash into a sun" idea) that he required them to credit him as
"Cordwainer Bird".

It had potential, but once again it was lost to a networks moronic ideas of
what constitutes "scifi".

Larry Smith
lsmith

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Date: 12 Aug 88 01:54:52 GMT
From: jack!nusdhub!rwhite@elgar.cts.com (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: "Starlost"

The following is a plot synopsis, recalled from memory, of the first
episode and premise.  If you have seen this anywhere, and know how
to see it again I would be much interested.

The Earth Ship ARC (it expanded into something cute, which I don't
remember) Contained all that was left of the people and history of earth.
To keep the human legacy alive, each of the hundreds of domes was filled
with a spesific culture from a historic period of earth.

To span the massive distances between these domes, a huge latice of
relatively narrow tubes were constructed.  Each tube was hollow and
contained an automated transport system based on artificial gravity and
moving air, requiring no expertise for it's opperation.  There were two
ranks of domes on either side of a massive central hull which was many
miles long.

During normal opperations one day, the ARC collided with something, nobody
saw what it was, which compleetly destroyed the bridge controls and
released a massive quantity of toxic radioactive gas.  The automated safety
systems sealed each dome from the rest of the ship.  Only someone
possessing a security key could open the doors.  Every regular crew member
was killed, and nothing survived in the master structure; this effectively
isolated each dome, causing the occupants and their descendants to lapse to
the level of sophistication consistent with the historical period
represented by their dome.  In many of the more contemporary domes, the
doors were forced open, and the occupants were killed by the gas and
radiation.  The deadliness of the corridors has caused most of the people
to believe that anybody who leaves their dome is doomed to die, and only
the "walking dead" can come from the "outside."  Meanwhile, the only
computer which both survived the blast and is turned on is the library
computer, and it can't effect anything pertinent to the operation of the
ship.  There is also nobody left alive with sufficient authorization to
grant authorization to the "sensitive material," and so the ARC flys on.

200 yrs later: Witness a community reminiscent of the first forty years of
the colonization of North America by the British.  The first born son of
the local "prime aurhority" (whatever they called it...?) is in love with a
young woman, who is in love with a young man of no stature.  The first born
son arranges to have the young man made "outcast," but since there is no
"out" for him to go to the village sets out to kill him.  The young man
seeks out an old man who is "keeper of the door" and manages to get himself
let out into the tunnels.  He is given a "key" (looks like a microscope
slide, with markings) and basic instructions on which buttons open the
doors when you put the key in slot X (all the doors are identical).

The first thing he encounters is the transporter which "picks him up and
blows him down the hall" which frightens him to no end.  On arriving at the
first junction in the tubes, and being dropped onto the floor (he didn't
know how to land correctly), he sees an inviting little cubicle with a
chair in it.  He goes over and sits down, and this activates the library
computer terminal, which conviently appears to him as an old man on the
screen and accepts voice commands.  It warns him that since the navigation
system is not working, the ARC is going to crash into the sun just ahead,
and tells him to go to the bridge do something about it.  Unfortunately he
does not have sufficient clearance to actually get helpful information.
Answers to questions like "where is the bridge?" are repeatedly responded
to with a request for security accesses.  He immediately races back to get
someone to help him and the ARC.

When he arrives at his dome, and runs from the door into "town" he barges
in on his own funeral; he has, after all been outside, and is therefore
"dead."  Everybody ignores him, because he is only a ghost, but he finally
gets the woman he loved to listen to him.  Nobody will listen to them, and
the town decides to cas out the "ghost" so again he has to leave the dome.
This time the girl comes whith him.

The first born son guy decides that now he'll have to notice.  He claims
that she was kidnapped, picks up his crossbow, and follows the outside to
"rescue" her.  He arrives outside the room with the terminal in it just in
time to hear the end of the computers warning.  They scuffle a bit, but
eventually the lovers escape and go off to find the bridge and see what
they can do.  Hunted by the first born son guy.

When the get to the bridge the discover lots of burnt equipment and
skeletons.  They get a look out the observation port and see the ship with
it's domes stretching off to the vanishing point in both directions, and
the bright gleam of the sun they are going to crash into is there right in
front of them.  When the first born guy sees this, he decides that saving
the ARC is more important than his grudge, so he settles for a more normal
means of competition for the woman.  [making an a-sexual love triangle, the
two men were also best friends when young, just for plot complications.]

While on the bridge they find a more important "key" and convince the
computer that they are candidates to become crew, and in so doing gain just
a little more information.  Somewhere in one of the domes is a shutdown and
sealed "emergency backup bridge" which if found and turned on will save
everything.  They are, however, not authorized to know where it is or "what
it looks like" because they are only candidates for crew membership.

They don't know what an "emergency backup bridge" is, what it looks like,
how big it is, or how to "turn it on," but they have to save the ARC so
they go on an epic [e.g. one season] search for it in an attempt to save
all humanity.

The young man had longish straight blonde hair and a strange mustache.  The
first born guy had longish slightly curly black hair.  The woman had
straight alburn hair (longer than the boy's).  They were all in their
early/mid-twenties.  The boys were about 6' the girl slightly shorter.
Their clothes were just slightly hippie, tunic on one boy, leather vestlit
on the other boy.  (guess which one was in white ;-) Even at the time I
thought the character names were horribly cliche, but I can't remember them
now.

If you have seen this lately, send me mail.

Rob

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Date: 14 Aug 88 17:45:46 GMT
From: neff@shasta.stanford.edu (Randy Neff)
Subject: Starlost:   Possible Spoilers

The TV series, Starlost, has been edited into at least five movies.  It is
easier to sell movies than a very short series to TV stations.  Last week,
in the San Francisco Bay Area, on a station that I do not recieve: (I do
not know if these are available on video tape, either)

The_Beginning **(73, Science-Fiction) Keir Dullea, Robin Ward.  In the far
future in space, a secret passageway on the Earthsip Ark leads to an all
male tribe. (120m.)

The-Invasion**(73, Science-Fiction) Keir Dullea, Robin Ward.  A crazed
space commander plans to increase the intellectual capacity of scientists
through the use of brain implants. (150m.)

The_Alien_Oro **(73, Science-Fiction) Keir Dullea, Walter Koenig.  An alien
spaceship collides with Earthship Ark and its captain befriends the ark
passengers while conspiring to sabotage the ship. (150m.)

Deception **(73, Science-Fiction) Keir Dullea, Ed Ames.  Several crew
members become the prisoners of a maniacal ruler of one of Earthship Ark's
domes traveling through space. (120m.)

The_Return **(73, Science-Fiction) Keir Dullea, Lloyd Bochner.  An
exploratory spacecraft returns to Earthship Ark after spending 400 years in
a time warp. (120m.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Aug 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 243

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Boyett & Bradley (2 msgs) &
                            Eddings (3 msgs) & Felice

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Date: 16 Aug 88 00:11:08 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP by Steven R. Boyett

		THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP by Steven R. Boyett
		       Ace, 1986, ISBN 0-441-02905-1
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     What if way back when raccoons had developed opposable thumbs and apes
had not?  Well, then, maybe you'd get Boyett's parallel universe in which
raccoons are the dominant life-form on earth.  Boyett does have one human
character, James Bentley, who has somehow found a gate to this parallel
world while exploring a cave in Florida.  Because of this, there are two
main threads to this novel: the political intrigue of this other world, and
Bentley's adapting to his new environment.  The latter is told mostly by
Bentley, the former by the first raccoon he meets, who just happens to be
the deposed ruler of one of the "countries" occupying what in our universe
is the southeast United States.  Though this could have resulted in the
reader feeling somewhat pulled in two by the plotlines, Boyett manages to
handle it well.  Bentley has an easier time of it than most people would,
since he just happens to have once had a raccoon as a pet in our world.
(If there seem to be an unusually high number of "just happen to"s in this
novel, well, they don't seem quite so obvious at the time.)

     There are a few other differences between Boyett's world and ours, but
to describe them would ruin some of the book.  The reader should be warned,
though, that this book has ever appearance of being the first of a series
(trilogy?).  It is true that two years have passed and no second book has
been forthcoming, so perhaps those who say the book stands on its own are
correct.  On the other hand, Frankowski's "Cross-Time Engineer" four-book
series started at the same time as THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP and hasn't seen
the publication of its second book either, so who knows?  If you're the
type who hates any sort of loose ends, you may want to wait and see if
future books in the series appear; if you're willing to accept that some
issues remain unresolved, THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP is worth a try.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 17:13:08 GMT
From: diane@apple.com (Diane Patterson)
Subject: Darkover chronology

Does anyone have the full list of the Darkover novels in any sort of order
(i.e., either chronologically as written or chronologically for the history
of Darkover)?  I recently read two Darkover novels which happened at
opposite ends of the timeline for the planet, and I would like to know what
happened in between!

Also, does anyone have information about the Friends of Darkover society?
I happened to pick up a Darkover novel in the bookstore and noticed it was
by MBZ and Friends...

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 22:36:10 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Darkover chronology

diane@Apple.COM (Diane Patterson) writes:
> Does anyone have the full list of the Darkover novels in any sort of
> order (i.e., either chronologically as written or chronologically for the
> history of Darkover)?  I recently read two Darkover novels which happened
> at opposite ends of the timeline for the planet, and I would like to know
> what happened in between!

For this info, try "The Darkover Concordance" by Walter Breen.  This
contains a wealth of data on Darkover, and should have a full chronology.
It is based solely on MZBs novels, but Breen is making noises about having
to read the 'Friends of Darkover' anthologies to update it.

> Also, does anyone have information about the Friends of Darkover society?
> I happened to pick up a Darkover novel in the bookstore and noticed it
> was by MBZ and Friends...

I don't have the specific address for Friends of Darkover handy, but the
following *should* work--

MZB Enterprises
P.O. Box 72
Berkeley, CA  94701

It may even be the right address--it will certainly go to the right people,
but they may be wearing other hats when they open it.

There have been several 'Friends' books--they tend to cover most periods of
Darkoveran history, and MZB is still putting more of them out.  There is
one due out this fall ('Under Four Moons') and one due to be edited for
starting next month sometime.

If you find you like the Darkover anthologies, then you might also enjoy
the 'Sword and Sorceress' series (five volumes so far, with number six to
come out next year plus an overflow volume from this years submissions).
There is also the magazine she's just started putting out--the address is
from that.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 09:06:14 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Malloreon Questions (*Spoilers*)

Does anyone out there who has read _The Demon Lord of Karanda_ feel that
they know what is going on?  It's starting to get a little confusing.

Somebody has moved the Sardion around.  Who can this be?  Clearly it wasn't
Torak.  It wasn't Zandramas.  The most obvious candidate seems to be Nahaz
who appears to be the next child of dark.  Nahaz is also a possible
candidate for the one who put the malediction on the blotted section of the
Mrin codex.  Or is there another actor on the dark side who hasn't made an
appearence yet?

There seems to be a surplus of people to confront Zandramas -- from
Salmissra we learned that it was Polgara.  From Poledra we hear that it is
Poledra.  And then there is always the next child of dark to take into
account.

I will make a guess that the place which is no more (which seems marked as
the high places of Korim) is located in the Turim reef.

Who is the clubfooted one?  Have we seen a reference to this person?

What is the status of Poledra at this point -- one gets the impression that
she is back from the dead or wherever she was.

The remaining action takes nine months; that seems to be an awfully long
time, given that they are right behind Zandramas at this point.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

From: crew@polya.stanford.edu (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: Malloreon Questions (*Spoilers*)
Date: 17 Aug 88 11:10:12 GMT

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM (Richard Harter) writes:
> Somebody has moved the Sardion around.  Who can this be?  Clearly it
> wasn't Torak.  It wasn't Zandramas.  

This is a problem.  We're running out of enemies.
What's-his-name-with-the-white-eyes is dead.  Urvon is mad.  Torak and
Ctuchik are dead.  Zedar is still in the rock as far as we know (notice
they still keep bringing this up from time to time...).

My money's on Cyradis, i.e., that she moved the Sardion because Zandramas
was too close to it and Belgarion & company were too far behind.

Notice also that, having found the resting place of the Sardion, Belgarath
has completed at least one of his tasks (perhaps all of them).  I bet his
death is not too far off (Zedar has to get out somehow, right?).

> The most obvious candidate seems to be Nahaz who appears to be the next
> child of dark.

It was said at one point that if Nahaz gets his hands on the Sardion,
*both* prophecies cease to exist.  It appears that demons are entirely
outside the scheme in which the gods and the prophecies operate.

At least, it's fairly clear now that the episode with the Morindim in
Enchanters' Endgame was not gratuitous.

> Nahaz is also a possible candidate for the one
> who put the malediction on the blotted section of the Mrin codex.

I don't think demons are capable of that kind of subtlety.

> There seems to be a surplus of people to confront Zandramas -- from
> Salmissra we learned that it was Polgara.  

I still think this was just sour grapes...

> From Poledra we hear that it is Poledra.  

There's something fishy here.  Belgarath doesn't meet Poledra until after
Torak steals the orb from Aldur.  This is pretty weird in itself; she just
appears out of nowhere.  Where did she come from?  Powerful sorceresses
like that don't grow on trees, even back then.

Then when Belgarath brings the orb back, Poledra has to die/disappear.

Then there are hints that Zandramas is someone that Belgarath and Polgara
both know...

Then there's that silly interdiction that was laid by someone who's been
around for the past 4000 years.  Not many people in this category.

Zandramas as Poledra's evil twin sister?  2nd cousin once-removed?  Poledra
as schizophrenic??

There are still a few vital pieces of this puzzle missing.

> And then there is always the next child of dark to take into account.

How about if in the next book the company catches up with Zandramas and
trashes her?  Then Nahaz strikes up a deal with the Dark prophecy...

    ``Hey, you need a Child of Dark now, don't you?''
    ``Err... uh...''
    ``No problem.  Trust me.''

and then he grabs Geran and runs off...

> I will make a guess that the place which is no more (which seems marked
> as the high places of Korim) is located in the Turim reef.
 
It's likely to be someplace in or near the Sea of the East, since whatever
*was* there when Torak cracked the world, isn't there any more...

> What is the status of Poledra at this point -- one gets the impression
> that she is back from the dead or wherever she was.

Well, she's getting better...  :-)

> The remaining action takes nine months; that seems to be an awfully long
> time, given that they are right behind Zandramas at this point.

Eddings has to fill two more books.

Actually, is it really nine months?  The quote is something along the lines
of, ``for as long as a child sits underneath its mother's heart,'' which
Bel* rather quickly interpreted to mean 9 months.  Now if the quote refers
to a particular child that has already been conceived, then the actual time
is somewhat less.

Recall the speculation about Polgara being pregnant.

Roger Crew
Usenet: {arpa gateways, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!polya.stanford.edu!crew
Internet:  crew@polya.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 21:49:36 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Malloreon Questions (*Spoilers*)

crew@polya.Stanford.EDU (Roger Crew) writes:
>g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM (Richard Harter) writes:
>> Somebody has moved the Sardion around.  Who can this be?  Clearly it
>> wasn't Torak.  It wasn't Zandramas.
>
>This is a problem.  We're running out of enemies.
>What's-his-name-with-the-white-eyes is dead.  Urvon is mad.  Torak and
>Ctuchik are dead.  Zedar is still in the rock as far as we know (notice
>they still keep bringing this up from time to time...).

   No, what's-his-name is Naradas; it's Harakan that's dead.  Naradas is
supposed to be an analog of Asharak, I think.  In any case Naradas is
second string.  There is still Agachak, who is a heavy duty hitter, albeit
not a Torak disciple.

>My money's on Cyradis, i.e., that she moved the Sardion because Zandramas
>was too close to it and Belgarion & company were too far behind.
>
>Notice also that, having found the resting place of the Sardion, Belgarath
>has completed at least one of his tasks (perhaps all of them).  I bet his
>death is not too far off (Zedar has to get out somehow, right?).

   Cyradis may have moved it, but I don't think so.  In any case it has to
go to the place that is no more.  It's hard to believe that Eddings would
actually kill Belgarath off -- although he did do in Rhodar and Ran Borune.
Belgarath has to still locate a fair copy of the Ashaba oracles.

>> The most obvious candidate seems to be Nahaz who appears to be the next
>> child of dark.
>
>It was said at one point that if Nahaz gets his hands on the Sardion,
>*both* prophecies cease to exist.  It appears that demons are entirely
>outside the scheme in which the gods and the prophecies operate.

   That's what Arshag [he raised the demon Lord in the first place> said.
However I don't think he's a good source -- the prophecies are, we are
told, the alternate purposes of the universe and have a scope and power
much greater than a single world.

>There's something fishy here.  Belgarath doesn't meet Poledra until after
>Torak steals the orb from Aldur.  This is pretty weird in itself; she just
>appears out of nowhere.  Where did she come from?  Powerful sorceresses
>like that don't grow on trees, even back then.
>
>Then when Belgarath brings the orb back, Poledra has to die/disappear.
>Then there are hints that Zandramas is someone that Belgarath and Polgara
>both know...  Then there's that silly interdiction that was laid by
>someone who's been around for the past 4000 years.  Not many people in
>this category.  Zandramas as Poledra's evil twin sister?  2nd cousin
>once-removed?  Poledra as schizophrenic??  There are still a few vital
>pieces of this puzzle missing.

Well, we were told that she was a wolf originally.  But it is odd,
distinctly odd, that this one particular wolf can acquire sorcerous powers.
At this point there seem to be a lot of vital pieces missing.

>> I will make a guess that the place which is no more (which seems marked
>> as the high places of Korim) is located in the Turim reef.
>
>It's likely to be someplace in or near the Sea of the East, since whatever
>*was* there when Torak cracked the world, isn't there any more...

That's the point.  The Turim reef is in the Sea of the East and being a
reef is a high point of the area that was destroyed.

>> The remaining action takes nine months; that seems to be an awfully long
>> time, given that they are right behind Zandramas at this point.
>
>Eddings has to fill two more books.
>
>Actually, is it really nine months?  The quote is something along the
>lines of, ``for as long as a child sits underneath its mother's heart,''
>which Bel* rather quickly interpreted to mean 9 months.  Now if the quote
>refers to a particular child that has already been conceived, then the
>actual time is somewhat less.
>
>Recall the speculation about Polgara being pregnant.

   Ouch.  Another good point.  The phrasing suggests a generic child.  I'm
skeptical about Polgara being pregnant -- given the amount of time that
they have been on the road, she would be quite a ways along by now.

   Incidentally I notice that we haven't seen the Horse in action as in
there are things that Eriond and the Horse have to do together.  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 88 00:18:26 GMT
From: mcdchg!motmpl!ellymae!anasazi!duane@gatech.edu (Duane Morse)
Subject: _Double Nocturne_ by Cynthia Felice (mild spoiler)

Time: relatively far future

Place: a planet called "Islands"

SF elements: lost colony, AI computers, some advanced technology

Introduction: Contact with a number of planets has been lost during the
Homeworlds wars. On a mission to the Islands to repair or replace a faulty
Artificial Intelligence computer, the shuttle carrying the captain and the
engineer disappears. The starship's pilot, Tom Hark, takes the other
shuttle down to investigate.

Main storylines: Tom's adventures in the various cultures and subcultures
as he tries to rescue the crew without sacrificing high technology devices,
including the shuttle; discovery of the cause of the planet's stagnation
and trying to figure out what to do about it.

Critique: Cynthia Felice is one of the names I look when I go shopping for
SF. Her books are almost always unusual and enjoyable. This one is a good
example. The hero, Tom Hark, is supposed to be an average guy doing his
best in a tough situation, and darned if I don't believe it. He makes
mistakes, says the wrong thing sometimes, and he's out of shape
(physically) for the somewhat primitive world he finds himself in. The
cultures which have developed on the planet are interesting: the wars
weren't that long ago, so people on the planet recognize Tom for what he
is. Some want to use him to get off the planet; others want to grab his
technology to make a play for planetary power. So there's a lot more going
on that just Tom's attempt to get his injured captain and engineer back to
the ship. A romantic interest also develops, and even that has cute twist
to it. Further, the technology on the planet hasn't slid all that far
downhill.

Rating: 3.0 out of 4.0; an enjoyable, good book, one to keep on my shelf.

P.S. This is the second novel I've read in a short period of time in which
the brains of a computer look like and are called "jelly beans".  I'm
pretty sure the other book was by someone else. Odd coincidence.

Duane Morse
(602) 861-7609
...!noao!mcdsun!nud!anasaz!duane

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Aug 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 244

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Herbert &
                           Martin (2 msgs) & McMahon & 
                           Shared Universe Books

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: akhale@pollux.usc.edu (Abhijit Superman Khale)
Subject: Heinlein and Fifth Column
Date: 15 Aug 88 18:47:41 GMT

   I am a great fan of Heinlein , especially of his early work . ( I mean
1940-55 or so). Recently I happened to read a novel called Fifth Column
written by RAH about 1946-47 or so. The story was terrible : no real plot,
no coherent storyline , ridiculous characters.  What disturbed me , though
was that the story seemed to me to have distinct racial overtones. I don't
think RAH was a racist , but it seems that Fifth Column comes as close to
racism as RAH ever did.  The characters are really stereotyped .
    I realize this novel was written just after WW-II (and about the time
China was turning communist too). Even so it seems to be one of his worst
works. Somebody told me that RAH himself wasn't pleased with the book and
wrote it at the insistence of Campbell. Is that so ?  Did anybody ever read
it ?  What do people think of it ?

   By the way , the last thing I want to do is to start another religious
war over RAH 's work.

Abhijit Khale
akhale@pollux.usc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 23:09:02 GMT
From: barry@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and Fifth Column

akhale@pollux.usc.edu () writes:
>   I am a great fan of Heinlein , especially of his early work . ( I mean
>1940-55 or so). Recently I happened to read a novel called Fifth Column
>written by RAH about 1946-47 or so. The story was terrible : no real plot,
>no coherent storyline , ridiculous characters.

   The book is called _Sixth Column_ (vt _The Day After Tomorrow_).  It was
one of RAH's earliest novels (2nd, I think, after _Beyond This Horizon_),
first serialized in 1941 or 1942. Actually, it ain't half bad. Straight
adventure, fast-paced for a RAH book, lots of superscience. Kind of fun.

>What disturbed me , though was that the story seemed to me to have
>distinct racial overtones. [...] Somebody told me that RAH himself wasn't
>pleased with the book and wrote it at the insistence of Campbell. Is that
>so ?

   The book has a definitely racist streak and, yes, he wrote it
for Campbell, which is probably why. Heinlein's written of how the book
came to be (anyone remember where? I can't recall). Basically, he said
it was the first and last time that he wrote a made-to-order book.
Campbell had started it, but hadn't had time to write it after he took
over editorship of Astounding, so he talked Heinlein into it. Heinlein
toned down the racism as much as possible, but, as you know since you've
read the book, certain racial ideas are central to the plot, and
couldn't be excised. Anyway, Heinlein attributed his agreement to write
the book to being new to writing, and says it taught him to stick to
telling his own stories thereafter.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
{most major sites}!ames!eos!barry
barry@eos

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 19:13:11 GMT
From: unisv!vanpelt@ubvax.ub.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and Fifth Column

akhale@pollux.usc.edu () writes:
>Recently I happened to read a novel called Fifth Column written by RAH
>about 1946-47 or so. The story was terrible : no real plot, no coherent
>storyline , ridiculous characters.  What disturbed me , though was that
>the story seemed to me to have distinct racial overtones.
>  ...
>Somebody told me that RAH himself wasn't pleased with the book and wrote
>it at the insistence of Campbell. Is that so ?

According to Heinlein (In "Expanded Universe", I believe) the book was
written from a premise and plot outline by John Campbell.  Campbell told
him "Here's a story that's been kicking around in my head for years, but
I've been out of the writing business for too long.  If you will write the
story, I will buy it."  Heinlein probably wouldn't have done it if Campbell
hadn't been a personal friend.

The possible racism in the story bothered Heinlein, too, and he said that
he tried to tone it down as much as possible.  (Probably part of this was
the Han exterminating Americans of Asian descent.  Perhaps Campbell's plot
had Amerasians joining the Han, or at least part of them doing so.  But I
don't know; that's all speculation.)  Heinlein also said that he spent a
lot of time trying to make the bizzaroid "Unified field theory" of the
story believable, because he found it entirely unconvincing.

I kind of liked the story in spite of its many flaws.  No plot?  It had a
pretty basic plot -- last remnants of the USA use super-technology to drive
off evil conquerers.  Fun.  Not realistic, perhaps, but fun.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP                            

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 22:03:01 GMT
From: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Herbert's _White Plague_ (was: Help finding book)

cloos@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (James H. Cloos Jr.) writes:
> It is most definitely Herbert's The White Plague.  A novel I won't ever
> forget.  Especially the ending.

   I tried very hard to finish this book but didn't succeed.  Perhaps my
attention span is to short but the plot seemed to drag on and on without
any meaningful developments, other than the "oh, isn't it awful, let's moan
and cry" theme crammed into your head page after page.

   After I attacked it in public, I'm ashamed to ask but... please tell us
the ending (with appropriate spoiler warnings for those who haven't read it
yet).  I'm curious as to whether the story amounted to much in the end.
Should I have read on past the first 200 pages?

Help!

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-328-8225
UUCP: {rutgers, att, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 18:40:40 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: WILDCARDS IV: ACES ABROAD by George R. R. Martin

	 WILD CARDS IV: ACES ABROAD edited by George R. R. Martin
		     Bantam, 1988, ISBN 0-553-27628-X
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     The premise of the "Wild Cards" series is that after World War II
aliens dropped a virus that caused all sorts of mutations.  (Space aliens,
that is, not German aliens or Japanese aliens.)  90% of the mutations are
fatal, but the other 10%--they are the "wild cards."  There are two types
of "wild cards": There are the "aces," those with valuable powers such as
teleportation or great strength.  And there "jokers," those whose mutations
are disfiguring, such as reptilian skin or feline face.  The jokers are
outcasts, treated as sub-human by most people, restricted to Jokertown,
dumped on by the police--if this sounds familiar, it is.  "Strings" (a
story in WILD CARDS I by Stephen Leigh) is the story of the Jokers' Rights
Movement, for example, but it is also many other stories not the least of
which would be the Stonewall riot.

     So when the authors say:
          "And are we so very much better in the enlightened USA, where
     fundamentalists ... preach that jokers are being punished for their
     sins?  ...  No, I'm afraid that they are all preaching the same creed-
     -that our bodies in some sense reflect our souls, that some divine
     being has taken a direct hand and twisted us into these shapes to
     signify his pleasure ... or displeasure ....  Most of all, each of
     them is saying that jokers are different.  My own creed is
     distressingly simple--I believe that jokers and aces and nats are all
     just men and women and ought to be treated as such.  During my dark
     nights of the soul I wonder if I am the only one left who believes
     this." (page 126)
we shouldn't be surprised if this sounds relevant to the world today.

     Of late, there have been many books dealing with the idea of
"otherness" in people around us.  WATCHMEN is very similar in theme to the
"Wild Cards" books, dealing with supermen among us.  But other books such
as ORPHAN OF CREATION (which asks if australopithecus boisei is a person or
an amimal), and films such as SHORT CIRCUIT (which deals with whether a
machine can be a person) are part of this trend, if trend it is.  And one
of this year's Hugo-nominated novels, SEVENTH SON is set in an alternate
universe a couple of hundred years ago in which some people have powers
such as telekinesis or telepathy, and because of these powers, they are
often treated as outsiders, or the children of Satan.  What is distressing
is that while fiction seems eager to embrace australopithecus boisei and
machines as "people," worthy of being treated as such, the real world seems
all too willing to lock out even certified homo sapiens from humanity.

     As far as the book itself goes, Martin and his co-authors are
continuing to modify the method they use to construct it.  The first book
was a collection of stories by different authors.  The second was a novel
written in consecutive sections by different authors.  The third was a
novel in which each author wrote a different character.  This book, the
fourth in the series, is the journal of a trip around the world to see how
jokers and aces are treated in various countries.  Each section is set in a
different country and written by a different author.  The connecting
sections and excerpts from Xavier Desmond's diary have no credited author
and may have been written by Martin or some other single author, or jointly
by all authors (I tend to believe the diary excerpts have a single author,
but that's just a feeling I have).

     In terms of quality, I would say that this book ranks up with the
first one, and is an improvement over the second and third volumes.  I
question how much longer this series should run, but that may be my basic
prejudice against interminable shared-world series.  There is much of value
in this series, but I think that even now much of it has been done more
than once already and further repetitions will not strengthen it.  But it
hasn't worn thin in this volume and I recommend it.  (Reading the earlier
volumes will help understand this one, but is not entirely necessary.)

     "We have much in common, jokers and AIDS victims.  ...  We pariahs
need to stick together.  Perhaps I can still erect a few necessary bridges
before my own Black Queen lies face up on the table." (pages 152-153) Every
group, at some time in history, somewhere on this globe, has been the
pariahs, the outsiders.  It would be a big step forward toward real
humanity if we would remember this.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 88 20:31:21 GMT
From: kathy@ncr-sd.sandiego.ncr.com (Kathy Li aka the Rev. Mom)
Subject: Re: WILDCARDS IV: ACES ABROAD by George R. R. Martin

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>     As far as the book itself goes, Martin and his co-authors are
>continuing to modify the method they use to construct it.

George R. R. Martin was at the San Diego Comic Con this last weekend and he
mentioned how the books are being put together.  The current method is to
develop some sort of overall plot, then have everybody work out a
plot/character/whathaveyou.  The select newsletter, "Cut and Shuffle," is
then sent out to all the different authors, informing them of the overall
design plan.

>The third was a novel in which each author wrote a different character.

Actually, everybody wrote sections, they were just integrated to the nth
degree...  Martin mentioned that there was a master timeline used for this
particular book, in which every author had to state, hour by hour, the
doings and whereabouts of his/her character.  It was a very thick outline.
Martin plans to have every third book in the series done in the same
interwoven manner.

>The connecting sections and excerpts from Xavier Desmond's diary have no
>credited author and may have been written by Martin or some other single
>author, or jointly by all authors (I tend to believe the diary excerpts
>have a single author, but that's just a feeling I have).

They're Martin's.
 
>I question how much longer this series should run, but that may be my
>basic prejudice against interminable shared-world series.

I agree.  But so far, I'm staying hopeful.  It appears that Chris Claremont
came up with the overplot for the *third* trilogy of books.  (The rough
draft of the story he read at the Con wasn't bad, either.)  Looks like Wild
Cards has some new blood and new ideas coming in.  Then again, I *am* an
X-Men fan.  :-)

Kathy Li
kathy.li@sandiego.ncr.com
...hplabs!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!kathy

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 00:01:13 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: LOVING LITTLE EGYPT by Thomas McMahon

		   LOVING LITTLE EGYPT by Thomas McMahon
		 Penguin, 1988 (1987c) ISBN 0-14-009331-s
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is a work of fiction.  Just because in it Nikola Tesla invents a
machine that could shake a building to rubble doesn't mean that he really
did.  Unfortunately, it also means that just because in it Edison gets his
comeuppance, it doesn't mean that he did so in real life.

     Neither of these people is the main character of LOVING LITTLE EGYPT:
Little Egypt is.  No, not the dancer, but an almost blind telephone hacker
of the early 1920s.  He has discovered how to work through all the switches
and operators to make the telephone system do whatever he wants.  And now
he finds out that the telephone company is going to change their switching
system to something even easier to break into.  Not everyone is as honest
as he is; not everyone is as careful not to destroy anything.  (In this
respect, he seems almost patterned after Bill Landreth, who in his book OUT
OF THE INNER CIRCLE decries the destructive tendencies of many hackers,
while claiming that he and the rest of the inner circle were interested
only in the challenge and were careful never to damage anything.)  But
Little Egypt can't get the telephone company to listen to him.  So he
decides to get help: from Alexander Graham Bell, from Nikola Tesla, from
anyone he can find.

     For those of us who are interested in telephone and computer security,
this book will be particularly interesting, though I'm not sure I believe
even half of the methods Little Egypt supposedly uses (a copper bullwhip
lashed around the lines to eavesdrop on conversations? really?).  The main
strength of LOVING LITTLE EGYPT, however, is the development of the
characters.  McMahon draws his characters far more thoroughly than most
other science fiction authors (and, yes, it is science fiction, by any
reasonable definition).  He doesn't do it by slighting the technical
aspects (though, as I say, they are extremely fanciful), but by not being
afraid to make his characters quirky.  Perhaps many science fiction
authors, wary of being accused of drawing characters with "funny hats,"
have shied away from any sort of characterization at all.  My only
objection to McMahon's characters is that the character of the blind (or
near-blind) telephone hacker is becoming something of a cliche these days.

     For people in the telecommunications industry, for people in the
computer industry, and for people just looking for a fun book which takes a
sideways look at the early history of electricity and telephony, LOVING
LITTLE EGYPT is highly recommended.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 01:51:57 GMT
From: flatline!erict@tness1.sw1e.swbt.com (j eric townsend)
Subject: Re: Shared Universe books (Re: reading lists)

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
> There are now four volumes of Wild Cards. Other things in the shared
> universe you might want to look at are:
>
> 	o Bordertown

The Bordertown/Borderland books are probably the worst written SF books
I've ever come across.  There are some really great ideas and scenes, but
the continuity sucks, the writing sucks, the characters are
one-dimensional, etc.  I wish someone would take all the ideas and some of
the concepts and add plot, character development and the ability to write.

Actually, the writing reminds me of 2nd year Russian students translating
Solznyetsin.  :-) "Uh, what's this word?"  "Dunno, but in that context a
word could mean this, I guess...."  "Ok, I'll use that."  Well,
Border{land,town} isn't *that* bad, but I only read the second one to see
if it was worse than the first one (it wasn't).

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Tx 77007
uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 18 Aug 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 245

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Vampire Novels & Thieves' World (5 msgs) &
                    Female SF&F Writers & 
                    The Official Prisoner Companion &
                    Story Request & Some Answers (2 msgs) &
                    Sentient Computer Novels (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 88 23:24:35 GMT
From: attvcr!auvax!ralphh@andrew.cs.ubc.ca (Ralph Hand)
Subject: Vampire Novels

A few weeks ago I posted a query to rec.arts.books to get a good list of
Vampire novels.  Here is a summary of what I received, which also includes
what you requested.

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro     * Hotel Transylvania
                           The Palace
                           Blood Games
                           Path of the Eclipse
                         * Tempting Fate
                         * The St. Germain Chronicles
                         A Flame in Byzantium (with Olivia)
Le Fanu                  Carmilla
Suzy McKee (Charnas)     The Vampire Tapestry
Gordon Linzner           The Troupe (soon to be out)
Anne Rice                * Interview With the Vampire
                         * The Vampire Lestat
                         * Queen of the Dead (soon to be out)
George R. Martin         Fevre Dream
Fred Saberhagen          The Dracula Tape
                         The Holmes Dracula File
                         An old friend of the Family
                         Thorn
                         Dominion
Stephen King             Salem's Lot
Tanith Lee               Red as Blood
S. P. Somtow             Vampire Junction
Fritz Leiber             The Sinful Ones

(* should be read in that order)

There are two more, sitting at home on my bookshelf but I cannot for the
life of me remember their titles, or authors.  Maybe I will post it later.

Anyway, there you go, read and enjoy.

Ralph

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 88 12:12:30 GMT
From: chi@csvax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher)
Subject: As the Thieves' World Turns

The eleventh Thieves' World novel is now available at a bookstore near you.
Although Books 5 through 8 were quite hellishly "Every author's character
becomes godlike" in nature, the last two books have been trying to undo
this. The series appears to be returning to its humbler origins.  Hopefully
number 11 will continue this way.

Curt Hagenlocher    
!ames!elroy!cit-vax!chi
chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 21:22:17 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Shadowspawn -- the novel

   I remember seeing a few postings on this subject a while back, but I
didn't pay to much attention to them.  Pity.

   Anyway, everyone I know who has read _Shadowspawn_ told me how good it
was.  I just finished it and it was pathetic.  The overall story was okay,
but the mechanics (grammar, punctuation, flow) were terrible.  Also, it was
very difficult for me to get into the proper mood for the book when things
like, "she said in a way bad novelists would call xxxxx," or something to
that effect.  Kinda breaks up a story.

   As Shadowspawn was one of my favorite characters in the Thieves' World
series, I was a bit disappointed.  Am I alone?

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 21:26:30 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Jamie the Red

   Some time back I read _Jamie the Red_, a book I very much enjoyed.  The
question is, is there any relation between Jamie the Red in the book and
JtR in the Thieve's World series (I believe he was just in one story)?  If
I recall, the authors are different and the settings are on two different
worlds, but the two JtR's were very much alike.  Comments?

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 88 03:38:34 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Jamie the Red

>	Some time back I read _Jamie the Red_, a book I very much enjoyed.
>The question is, is there any relation between Jamie the Red in the book
>and JtR in the Thieve's World series (I believe he was just in one story)?
>If I recall, the authors are different and the settings are on two
>different worlds, but the two JtR's were very much alike.  Comments?

Jamie the Red started out as a Thieves' World character, but Dickson went
off and wrote a novel about him. It started out as a TW novel, but Dickson
doesn't own the rights to that universe (Asprin does) so after a few
discussions (nice word, that....) Dickson went and rewrote the novel
outside of the universe. Well, far enough out not to get sued.

Chuq Von Rospach			
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 88 22:08:02 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Jamie the Red

Chuq Von Rospach writes:
>Jamie the Red started out as a Thieves' World character, but Dickson went
>off and wrote a novel about him. It started out as a TW novel, but Dickson
>doesn't own the rights to that universe (Asprin does) so after a few
>discussions (nice word, that....) Dickson went and rewrote the novel
>outside of the universe. Well, far enough out not to get sued.

_Jamie the Red_ takes place mostly in Renaissance Italy and in France and
England of the same period.  Dickson may not have mentioned Italy, France
and England by name, but there are too many similarities for it to be
anywhere else.  I don't remember there being any magic in _JtR_, and
without magic, it's a historical novel, not a fantasy.

The Jamie the Red in the Thieves' World was in the Poul Anderson story.
Anderson is a good friend of Dickson and it was only natural that he
include his friend's character in his story.  Obviously, he wrote his story
before Gordon pulled Jamie out of TW.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 88 06:17:39 GMT
From: troly@julia.math.ucla.edu (Bret Jolly)
Subject: Female SF&F writers (was: Marion Zimmer Bradley)

VILJANEN@cc.helsinki.fi (Lea Viljanen) writes (concerning MZB and
_Thendara_House_):
>I had sort of assumed that the writer was a man, like most of SF&F writers
>are. And as a Finn, I didn't first recognize the name Marion as a female
>name.

[Some lines expressing an interest in female SF&F writers deleted for
brevity.]

  "Marion" can be the name of either a man or a woman. If you are
interested in female SF&F writers, there are some that are *much* better
than Marion Zimmer Bradley. Get _Tea_with_a_Black_Dragon_, and
_The_Book_of_Kells_ by Roberta MacAvoy. Incidentally, the latter book has
the best use of sexuality in the development of as *male* character that I
have ever seen, -which gives you an idea of her versatility and powers of
empathy. It also has vivid and terrifying villains, (Vikings), that are
made so real you can smell them.

  (It's hard for me to find sufficient praise for _The_Book_of_Kells_. I
normally hate Celtic fantasy, and I might not have touched this book had I
not already been convinced by her earlier books that she was a genius.  I
expected a disappointment. Boy was I wrong!)

  I also recommend C.L. Moore. Her work is rooted in the old _Weird_Tales_
school, but with a very fine sense of character. Her first story,
_Shambleau_, is a good example of the best of that school. Later, she
developed more of her own style. Her writing exhibits imagination, sensi-
tivity, and good old pulp-style vitality. Her science is a tad weak, but
this doesn't hurt most of her stories.

  You might want to start with the collection _The_Best_of_C.L._Moore_.
C.L. Moore wrote a lot of stuff under pseudonyms and in collaborations. If
anyone can post a definitive C.L. Moore bibliography, at least of her
fantasy and Sci-Fi, her fans, (for whom I appoint myself temporary
spokesman), will be gushing with gratitude.

Bret Jolly        
troly@math.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 23:49:39 GMT
From: felix!billw@decuac.dec.com (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: The Official Prisoner Companion

This appears to be hot off the presses.

    The Official Prisoner Companion
    [sorry, didn't write down the authors]
    Warner Books, July 1988, ISBN 0-446-38744-4

This book appears to have it all, annotated episode guide, photos, script
excerpts, etc.  I hope its as good as The Man from UNCLE Book.  Now I have
to save my pennies (and reduce my to-be-read stack) so I can buy it.  Argh.

Bill Weinberger
FileNet Corporation
hplabs!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 23:09:56 GMT
From: dr@hpcldrr.hp.com (Dick Rupp x75742)
Subject: Anyone recognize a storyline?

A while ago I heard of a book or short story that I would like to read, but
I don't know the title or author.  If anyone recognizes this, please let me
know by e-mail.  The approximate plot line is as follows:

  As human astronauts begin to explore the moon, they accidentally discover
  dead beings in space suits, and maybe even a lunar base.  The artifacts
  (and dead beings) are millions of years old, and they eventually figure
  out that they came from a previous intelligent race from Earth, that
  explored the moon before dying out.  After discovery of this evidence on
  the moon, they discover more traces of them on the Earth, that were
  simply overlooked before.

  Anyone recognize this???

Dick Rupp
Hewlett Packard California Language Lab
hpda!dr@hplabs.hp.com
{allegra,decvax,ucbvax}!hplabs!hpda!dr
{fortune,sun,thirdi,ucbvax}!hpda!dr

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 14:34:48 GMT
From: ritcv!ark@cs.rochester.edu (Alan Kaminsky)
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize a storyline?

> A while ago I heard of a book or short story that I would like to read,
> but I don't know the title or author.  If anyone recognizes this, please
> let me know by e-mail.  The approximate plot line is as follows:
> 
>   As human astronauts begin to explore the moon, they accidentally
>   discover dead beings in space suits, and maybe even a lunar base.
>   The artifacts (and dead beings) are millions of years old, and 
>   they eventually figure out that they came from a previous
>   intelligent race from Earth, that explored the moon before 
>   dying out.  After discovery of this evidence on the moon, they
>   discover more traces of them on the Earth, that were simply
>   overlooked before.

This sounds somewhat like the novel _Inherit_the_Stars_ by James P. Hogan.
I say "somewhat" because in that book, only *one* million-year-old dead
being in a space suit is found, and that being is identical to contemporary
humans.

_Inherit_the_Stars_ is the first of a trilogy, the other two being _The_
_Gentle_Giants_of_Ganymede_ and _Giant's_Star._ Whether or not these are
the books you are looking for, they're a good read.  The trilogy is an
entertaining twist on the evolutionary origins of human life on Planet
Earth, and a good mystery story to boot.  The mystery, of course, is how a
being identical to contemporary humans could be a million years old and
found on the moon.

Alan Kaminsky
School of Computer Science
Rochester Institute of Technology
P. O. Box 9887
Rochester, NY  14623
716-475-5255
ark@cs.rit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 07:31:38 GMT
From: reed!mehawk@nscpdc.nsc.com (Michael Sandy)
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize a storyline?

dr@hpcldrr.HP.COM (Dick Rupp x75742) writes:
>A while ago I heard of a book or short story that I would like to read,
>but I don't know the title or author.  If anyone recognizes this, please
>let me know by e-mail.  The approximate plot line is as follows:
>
>  As human astronauts begin to explore the moon, they accidentally
>  discover dead beings in space suits, and maybe even a lunar base.
>  The artifacts (and dead beings) are millions of years old, and 
>  they eventually figure out that they came from a previous
>  intelligent race from Earth, that explored the moon before 
>  dying out.  After discovery of this evidence on the moon, they
>  discover more traces of them on the Earth, that were simply
>  overlooked before.

Yes I recognize this story.  My personal opinion was that it sucked.  Paul
Hogan's _Inherit the Stars_

Spoiler,(hah ;*)

Many many theories as to where the bodies came from are proposed, and a
fairly scientific investigation proceding from data as it is analyzed.  The
weirdest stupidist one is the true one.  On the 5th planet there used to be
an alien star traveling race which transplanted life from our world to
theirs about 20 million years ago.  Said people evolved to the point at
which they could blow themselves up and did so.  Apparently the moon used
to orbit the 5th planet, but by incredible interplanetary billiards, ended
up in orbit around Earth.  Which was promptly settled by those survivors of
a military expedition to their moon on which the planet blaster was based.
We humans idiots are the descendants of this overly warlike race.

The logical flaws in this story are legion!  Occam's Razor is totally
ignored by all the characters in the story.  For 2 pts, name any three
other authors who used inter-planetary billiards to explain minor
inconsistences in the history books.  

mehawk@reed.edu.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 02:59:09 GMT
From: ut-emx!gknight@cs.utexas.edu (Gary Knight)
Subject: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

      Here is an initial canonical list of sentient computer novels
compiled with the assistance and input of lots of net.sf-lovers.  Category
A lists only those titles where the computer is the principal or a major
character in the story, not just a sidelight.  Human access stories kind of
get into cyberpunk territory, I guess.  Anyway, play with it.

   A) SENTIENT COMPUTERS

      The Adolescence of P-1, Thomas J. Ryan
      Coils, Roger Zelazny
      Cybernetic Samurai, ???
      Valentina: Soul in Sapphire, Joseph Delaney & Marc Stiegler
      Time Enough for Love, Robert Heinlein
      The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Robert Heinlein
      The Number of the Beast, RH
      The Cat that Walked through Walls, RH
      2001, Arthur Clarke
      The Messiah Choice, Jack Chalker
      The Well Of Souls (series), Jack Chalker
      The Two Faces of Tomorrow, James P. Hogan
      The Gentle Giants of Ganymede, James P. Hogan
      Giants' Star, James P. Hogan
      When Harley Was One, David Gerrold
      Colossus; The Fall of Colossus; Colossus and the Crab, D.F. Jones
      Michaelmas, Algis Budrys
      Roadmarks, Roger Zelazny
      Blake's Seven, ???

   B) HUMAN ACCESS

      True Names, Vernor Vinge
      Neuromancer -and- Count Zero, William Gibson
      Oath of Fealty, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
      High Justice, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
      ORA:CLE, Kevin O'Donnell
      Terminal Man, Michael Crichton
      Avatar, Poul Anderson
      Fifth Head of Cerebrus, Jack Chalker

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 06:57:31 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

gknight@ut-emx.UUCP (Gary Knight) writes:
>Here is an initial canonical list of sentient computer novels compiled
>with the assistance and input of lots of net.sf-lovers.  Category A lists
>only those titles where the computer is the principal or a major character
>in the story, not just a sidelight.  Human access stories kind of get into
>cyberpunk territory, I guess.  Anyway, play with it.

Scarcely a canonical list.  There are a lot of older stories with sentient
machines that predate the term computer.  Asimov's robots, Williamson's
humanoids, and Campbell's machine cycle spring immediately to mind.
Missing in the list is 2010 by Clarke, the Anderson story with an
intelligent machine (don't recall the title - it's part of the Flandry
cycle), the berserkers, the computer in Silicon Mage by Hambly (debatable I
admit), Andromeda Strain, the games machine (and sentient machines) in
Anthony's Double Exposure cycle, the games machine in Null-A, Code of The
Life Maker (?) by Hogan, etc.  The sf landscape is littered with sentient
machines.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 03:31:28 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

Gary Knight writes:
>Here is an initial canonical list of sentient computer novels compiled
>with the assistance and input of lots of net.sf-lovers.
>
>   B) HUMAN ACCESS
>
>      Fifth Head of Cerebrus, Jack Chalker

Either this is an error or Chalker borrowed a title from Gene Wolfe.  The
Wolfe book did not have direct human-computer access in it.  The closest it
got was human personalities stored on mobile computers (not exactly robots,
but close).  The stored personality was not a main character, nor was
storing personalities a major theme of the book.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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*** EOOH ***
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 88 05:51:41 EDT
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #246
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 22 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 246

Today's Topics:

		      Administrivia - Vacation Time,
                      Miscellaneous - Conventions (3 msgs) & 
                                      Cyberpunk (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Aug 88 08:19:38 EDT
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
Subject: Administrivia

Well, it's nearing Labor Day weekend and for us SF fans, that means that
the 1988 Worldcon (Nolacon in New Orleans) is just around the corner.  For
me, that means vacation time!!!  There will be a couple of issues of
SF-LOVERS yet before I leave on vacation but not many.  August 26th will be
the last day I will be here and I will be returning around the 7th of
September and will resume publication at that time.

For those of you going to Nolacon this year, look for notices (on the party
board if there is one) of the "@!" party.  Someone has already graciously
volunteered his room for the party (sucker:-) but the announcement he sent
for inclusion here never reached me so I don't know any of the specifics
yet.  I will definitely be attending the party so look for me there.  

Saul Jaffe
Moderator SF-LOVERS Digest
sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 88 03:26:16 GMT
From: phri!dasys1!ptrei@cmcl2.uucp (Peter Trei)
Subject: Empiricon Lives!

                 EMPIRICON PRESS RELEASE

Empiricon Strikes back! After a five-year hiatus, Empiricon, the New York
City Area's July 4th weekend SF Convention, has returned.  Empiricon '89
will be held on June 30 - July 2, 1989 at the Holiday Inn Jetport,
Elizabeth, NJ. As that weekend marks the 50th anniversary of the first
Worldcon, Empiricon requests that all attendees of Nycon 1 contact Mark
Blackman at P.O. Box 682, Church Street Station, NY, NY 10008

Peter Trei
..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!ptrei

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 03:16:05 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

Alan Bostick writes:

>The Red Lion hotels as a chain have been taking a dim view of SF
>conventions over the past couple of years; apparently based on a bad
>experience with Norwescon in Seattle.  That convention, once one of the
>best in the country, had outgrown its old hotel, the Seatac airport Hyatt,
>and moved to the Red Lion just down the road two years ago.  That
>convention was a weird scene; apparently the convention had come to
>attract Seattle's leather and chains set, as well as 'conventional'
>fandom.  There were hotel rooms trashed by congoing occupants, and alleged
>incidents of public copulation in the hallways.  The Red Lion managment
>was Not Pleased; they not only made it clear that SF conventions (of ANY
>kind) were no longer welcome there, but effectively blacklisted Norwescon
>in Seattle hotels.

My understanding was that the Red Lion would not have minded having
Norwescon back, but that communication breakdowns gave the Norwescon
committee the opposite impression.  This impression evidently got to other
hotels in Seattle, so perhaps there was something to it.

The Sea-Tac Hyatt loves Norwescon and would really like to have it back.
Too bad it's too small.

There do seem to be a number of people in leather and chains at Norwescon
but before you mentioned it, I had not really paid that much attention (I
am not a rabid convention type so don't have a lot of other examples to
compare with).

>This year's Norwescon was held in a hotel in Tacoma; a perfectly nice
>hotel by all accounts, but in a rotten location.

Let's say that if Norwescon really wants to cut down attendance, they
should keep having it in Tacoma.  Tacoma is the ugliest city in the
Northwest, so they may not get the kind of people they really want at their
convention.  I certainly won't go back.

BTW, does anyone know where next years Norwescon will be?  They didn't know
at the convention and I haven't heard anything at all (not even a post
mortem on this year's con) about it since.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

From: encore!cloud9!jjmhome!lmann@bu-cs.bu.edu (Laurie Mann)
Subject: New Orleans Information
Date: 18 Aug 88 01:12:09 GMT

Well, Worldcon is only about two weeks off, so it's time to start planning
ahead.

NESFA (the New England Science Fiction Association) is running a party on
Friday night in the Marriott, beginning at 10pm.  All are welcome,
particularly chocaholics.  Magicon, a bidder for the 1992 worldcon
(Orlando) is running a party on Sunday night.  They are having a clever
gimmick - all presupporters as of Sunday night are automatically in a
lottery.  The winner wins either a room in the Orlando Peabody Hotel or
round-trip air-fare to Orlando if Magicon wins the 1992 worldcon.

Nolacon should be an "interesting" convention.

I have never been to New Orleans, so I have been asking friends at work
about "what to do" in New Orleans.  Here's what I found out:

K-Paul's -- Cajun food
Galatoire's -- Creole food  (also suggested by Jen's friend)

Neither take reservations.  You must wait in line at both places.  Best to
arrive at 5:30 or eat late.  Galatoire's is quite reasonably priced.  Paul
Prudhomme of K-Paul's is responsible for the whole Cajun food craze.

Other good places:

Old N'Awlins Cookery
Le Ruth's

Pascal's Manale New Orlean's Restaurant, 1838 Napoleon Ave.  895-4877
     bar-b-q shrimp, oyster rockefeller, veal, seafood

Casamentos, Magazine St, near Napoleon
     fried oysters

Tippatina's, Napoleon St., toward river from Magazine
     bar for music

Commanders, Washington and Colesium (in the Garden district)
     good for lunch

Brennans
     breakfast or lunch

Cafe Spisas, Decatur, near French Market

Also, go to the French Market for coffee

Go to a plantation

Walk around the French Quarter

Take a boat up the river

Audobon Park and zoo

Laurie Mann
Stratus
M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 17:50:49 GMT
From: mng@sei.cmu.edu (Marvin Germany)
Subject: The punk in Cyberpunk

   A question that has been nagging me for these last couple of months
deals with the meaning of the word "punk" as it relates to cyberpunk.  I
looked in the dictionary, at the various definitions of the word "punk" and
I came up with:
   1) very poor, inferior
   2) being in poor health
   3) a: of or relating to punk rock 
      b: relating to or being a style of dress inspired by punk rock

   I am assuming that the "punk" in cyberpunk refers to the 3rd entry of
this definition. But, does this mean that most of the characters in CP are
punk rockers? Or do they dress Like punk rockers? Or does "punk" in this
context mean radical?

   I also have been reading the alt.cyberpunk bboard for a couple of months
now and I have been compiling a list of books considered cyberpunk.  But
since I am new to the cyberpunk genre, could anyone recommend a book that I
should read as a "gentle introduction" to this genre?  Finally, would there
be any necessary knowledge that would be needed to understand cyberpunk?
(I.E.-any particular computer languages, types of Math, etc...) .

Thanks!

Marvin N. Germany
mg2s@andrew.cmu.edu
mng@sei.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 17:37:08 GMT
From: infinet!mahla@swan.ulowell.edu (Walter Mahla)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk's Name

Chuq writes:
>>The primary focus of Cyberpunk is not the tech, it's the dystopic view of
>>a corporate oriented socialized society, where the companies own the
>>world and the basic premise is "life sucks, then you die". If you want a
>>look at

Then J.McKernan writes:

>I disagree with the idea that technology is only of secondary importance
>in Cyberpunk style books. The books that I have read focus on specific
>technologies (cyberspace for example) as well as the effects of these
>technologies on the individual characters and the society. The writing
>style I associate with Cyberpunk is packed with references to new
>technologies in addition to its hardboiled and somewhat dystopic treatment
>of characters and society. In my opinion both of these aspects are of
>primary importance to what Cyberpunk authors are trying to achieve.

Well I've been following this discussion in this and alt.cyperpunk for a
while and I would have to agree more with chuq, however, I would have to
say that, in my opinion, *nobody* on the net has produced a very good
definition and the "book list" was questionable at best.
   I would have to put Riddly Scott as the father of Cyberpunk with his
movie Blade Runner - for I think that Cyperpunk has more to do with visuals
and attitude then anything else.  Technology has something to do with it
yes - but it is more of the "disposable" type that is taken for advantage
by the main characters.  The 'punk' part is more important, hell - you can
have hundreds of stories about 'cyberspace' but that wouldn't be what I
call cyberpunk.  The main character should have a 'punkish' demeanor - he
should be anti- establishment, somewhat selfish and violent.  I think that
W.Gibson did a good job of expanding on the images of Blade Runner and some
of the images of cyberspace were good - but his plotline left a lot to be
desired.  'Count Zero' started off pretty good but then wandered aimlessly
for a while until we find out somethings (that by now I am not sure why
they were relevent) and then ends sort of abruptly.  'Neuromancer' was
better but Gibson still can't create a flowing coherent storyline - by the
time the 'climax' came about I really didn't care about the outcome.  So
finally I said to heck with Gibson and decided to re-read (for about the
5th time) 'Stand on Zanzibar' which - although not cyberpunk - very close.
I also think that John Steakly's "Armor" is cyberpunk.  Well as far as
coherent - this is not so bye.

Will
mahla@infinet

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 03:30:56 GMT
From: gethen!abostick@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Alan Bostick)
Subject: The New York Review of Science Fiction

A while ago I posted a message about "The New York Review of Science
Fiction," a publication being put out by David Hartwell and others.  I now
have the relevant details.

Issue number zero of "The New York Review of Science Fiction" has been
published.  It is a sample issue, presumably produced to announce the
existence of the publication and to attract attention and subscription
money.

"The New York Review of Science Fiction" is published monthly (it says
here) by Dragon Press, P.O. Box 78, Pleasantville, NY, 10570.  I have no
information about the present availability of issue zero.  When I was in
New York last week, and visited the home of two of the editors, I was shown
a copy, but not allowed to take it home with me.  I am now looking over a
copy that my roommate, a co-owner of a SF specialty bookstore, received
while I was away.  This copy is basically a photocopy of pasteups.  I would
expect that subscriptions would commence with issue #1, but do not know for
sure.

The editorial staff of the publication is: Kathryn Cramer, Features Editor;
David G. Hartwell, Reviews Editor; Patrick Nielsen Hayden, Designer; Teresa
Nielsen Hayden, Managing Editor; Susan Palwick, Fantasy Editor; and Tom
Weber, Short Fiction Editor.

All of these people, save Susan Palwick, are known to me, and I am very
much impressed by the array of talent.  (People familiar with Hartwell's
little magazine, "The Little Magazine" will probably recognize these names
as being on that publication's staff as well.)

The contents of this sample issue are, "Science Fiction and the Adventures
of the Spherical Cow," a rather sententious article on the role of science
in science fiction by Kathryn Cramer; John M. Ford's "The Hemstitch
Notebooks", containing some cute but nonetheless funny pastiches of Ernest
Hemingway; "I Was a Teenaged Crudfan" (Part I of three) by Susan Palwick,
which tells the story of Palwick's Progress from misfit teenager to stfnal
enlightenment via Star Trek fandom; "Daniel M. Pinkwater Speaks", a column
that, like all of Pinkwater's writing, defies coherent description (and if
it is indeed a regular feature, then all people of taste should subscribe
to the magazine for it alone); some assorted reviews; and a Statement of
Purpose, by the Editors.

The reviews are the heart of the magazine.  Reviewed here are George
Turner's DROWNING TOWERS, Elizabeth Scarborough's THE GOLDCAMP VAMPIRE, Tim
Powers' ON STRANGER TIDES, and Greg Bear's ETERNITY.  I have read none of
these books, so I can't gauge the critical acumen of the reviewers against
my own; but I did notice that the reviewers tended to notice the kinds of
things that I find worth noticing in books.  The magazine promises to
deliver real SF criticism, not plot summaries; and reviews in depth, not
abominable capsule reviews of the kind that appear in LOCUS or (even worse)
SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE.

Alan Bostick
ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 23:36:36 GMT
From: phri!dasys1!gts@nyu.edu (G. T. Samson)
Subject: _Mississippi Review_ cyberpunk issue?

Has anyone seen the next issue of the _Mississippi Review_?  It's one of
those serious literary review journals, and I read in Locus that their next
issue (after Vol 16 No 1, I think) is going to deal with cyberpunk as a
literary form.

It's supposed to be entitled "The Desert of the Real" and include cyberpunk
drama, fiction, poetry, and an interview with William Gibson.

It was also SUPPOSED to be shipped in late June.  I haven't seen it yet.
Has anyone else?

Any answers appreciated...

Gregory T. Samson
gts@prep.AI.MIT.EDU
gts@masa.COM
...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!gts

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 09:48:45 GMT
From: andym@crash.cts.com (Andy Micone)
Subject: Cyberpunk fanzine being organized

Hi there,

I am in the process of organizing a "cyberpunk" science-fiction fanzine.
Cyberpunk, if you are not familiar, is a sub-genre of science-fiction that
is particularly concerned with high-technology and its effects on society,
while using "hip" imagery to convey its message. The book _Neuromancer_ is
the archetypal cyberpunk work.

A fanzine is a not-for-profit magazine run by fans, for fans. It is a
compilation of amateur stories, critical essays, and other writings all
done on a voluntary basis.

I'm building a mailing list for the fanzine now. If you are interested in
recieving a copy, e-mail me your US mail address. 

If you are interested in making contributions to the first issue, be it in
the form of stories, artwork, critical essays, poems, whatever, please send
e-mail letting me know that you are interested. Submissions are the
backbone of a fanzine, and they can't exist without them. I know there's
some creative talent out there, so let me know if you are interested!

andym@crash.CTS.COM
UUCP: ..!sdcsvax!crash!andym

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 17:11:11 GMT
From: socoper@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Social Science Operator)
Subject: One More Time Kids, Cyberpunk is Dead.

It used to be that I threatened ritual defenestration of annoying fans
cluttering up cons with their 'elfquest', 'sca', 'star wars', ad nauseum
garb.  Will I have to move the children in mirrorshades to the front of the
queue?

The useful life of 'Cyberpunk' as a movement died when Vincent Omniveritas
penned his last diatribe, "The SFWA Cyberpunk Style Guide", in the final
issue of _Cheap Truth_.  But that message didn't get out to the general
populace.  And the net is filled with thousands of messages asking, "Is
this Cyberpunk?".  The true meaning of those messages might be: "Will I be
cool if I read this?"

Posturing has struck our field in a bad way.  Back in the early eighties,
before Dozios coined the word 'cyberpunk'.  I sat in on an Armadillocon
panel consisting of three guys that I had never heard of, Gibson, Shiner
and Sterling.  They talked about writing fiction that reacted to the
environment.  It just happened that this environment contained computers,
hackers, multinationals and the trappings we associated with 'cyberpunk'.

They reacted to their environment in the same way that Faulkner and Penn -
Warren wrote about the south.  Instead of racism and complex social mores
- -- Gibson, Shiner and Sterling had to contend with a United States in
decline, the rise of corporate power and accelerating technical change.
Those were some of the key themes in the original stories.

Those issues keep popping up, even after the death of cyberpunk.  All three
are integral to Effinger's _When Gravity Fails_, and Sterling's _Islands in
the Net_.

But it is demeaning to keep tossing about a phrase like 'cyberpunk' long
after it has become meaningless.  Instead of asking, "Is this cyberpunk?"
We readers should be asking, "Is this book good?  Does it deal with the
issues that SF grew up to attack?  Is it well written?"

In any case, the crowd in Austin, where the movement started, is now raving
on about J.K. Jeter and 'Steampunk'.  We'll never learn.

Bill Humphries
SOCOPER@WIRCS3.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #247
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 22 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 247

Today's Topics:

		     Books - Brooks (5 msgs) & Card &
                             Heinlein & Shapiro

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 16:52:11 GMT
From: nvuxr!deej@bellcore.bellcore.com (David Lewis)
Subject: Re: Shanara

friedson@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP writes:
> I have just started reading The Sword of Shanara and have read the
> Elfstone of Shanara previously.  I know that Wishsong was recently
> released.  I know these books are kind of old but could someone out there
> review them for me.  I enjoyed Elfstones and am enjoying Sword.  Should I
> read Wishsong??  No spoilers please!!!!!

It may be somewhat apparent I was not too keen on the "Shannara" books.
Actually, to be fair, I only got through "The Sword of Shannara".  I found
it to be a poorly-written blatant copy of The Lord of the Rings.  I seem to
recall a very close to 1:1 mapping between characters in "Sword" and
characters in TLotR, as well as a chain of events so similar that, if Apple
had written TLotR, it would be suing the author of "Sword" for infringement
of Look and Feel copyright...

David G Lewis
Bellcore	
Navesink Research and Engineering Center
201-758-4099
...!bellcore!nvuxr!deej

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 14:22:32 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.edu (didsgn)
Subject: Re: Shanara

deej@nvuxr.UUCP (David Lewis) writes:
> ...I was not too keen on the "Shannara" books.  Actually, to be fair, I
> only got through "The Sword of Shannara".  I found it to be a
> poorly-written blatant copy of The Lord of the Rings.  I seem to recall a
> very close to 1:1 mapping between characters in "Sword" and characters in
> TLotR, as well as a chain of events so similar that, if Apple had written
> TLotR, it would be suing the author of "Sword" for infringement of Look
> and Feel copyright...

See summary. 

As a little bit of homework, quote us a few pieces of literature (good or
bad) that are not, thematically or in some other definable way related to
previously 'published' works (whether of modern times or antiquity matters
little).

The point I want to make is that the themes of literature have changed
little over n-thousand years (n>4?). What has changed is the setting and
the culturally conditioned overtones.

If it takes the fun out of your reading to see things YOU regard as great
copied in one way or other, then you might as well stop reading.

By the way, the comments above are not meant to be invective in any way.  I
just find it a little sad that a good story can be done away with just
because it reminds you of something that is kind of sacred to you, and
because you feel that this kind of plagiarism bothers you.

(Oh yes. I liked all the Shannara tales. Not that they were exceptionally
brilliant- but on third re-read neither was LoTR- but they were good
stories nevertheless...)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 20:18:54 GMT
From: mark@unix386.convergent.com (Mark Nudelman)
Subject: Re: Shanara

till@didsgn.UUCP (didsgn) writes:
> deej@nvuxr.UUCP (David Lewis) writes:
>> ...I was not too keen on the "Shannara" books. 
> As a little bit of homework, quote us a few pieces of literature (good or
> bad) that are not, thematically or in some other definable way related to
> previously 'published' works (whether of modern times ar antiquity
> matters little).
>
> I just find it a little sad that a good story can be done away with just
> because it reminds you of something that is kind of sacred to you, and
> because you feel that this kind of plagiarism bothers you.

("Plagiarism" is the key word here.)  Yes, many pieces of literature are
related to previous works.  In fact, some of the best examples of English
literature are largely derived from earlier works, such as many of
Shakespeare's plays.  And, yes, even Lord of the Rings owes much to Norse
mythology, the Elder Edda, etc.  But the measure of a work of literature is
internal.  So, saying that _The Sword of Shanarra_ is derived from LotR is,
in itself, not a serious criticism.  What is important is how the work
stands up on its own.  IMHO, LotR succeeds spectacularly as a work of
fiction, in terms of characterization, imagery, plot and verisimilitude;
less well in terms of prose style and pacing.  Shanarra, on the other hand
(again IMHO of course) is a much poorer work.  If I had not read LotR
before reading Shanarra, I suppose I might have thought it was an OK book,
nothing really great.

*HOWEVER*, the thing that really ticked me off about Shanarra, as the
original poster noted, is that it is not just DERIVED from LotR, it is
practically a direct copy.  The characters are nearly identical, the plot
is exactly identical, the whole thing just became a game of "ok, this guy
represents Gimli, and he is Aragorn, and this place is Mordor, oh, except
LotR's East becomes Shanarra's North", etc.  I mean, the book could have
been written by a sed script, given LotR as input.

Mark Nudelman

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 18:07:26 GMT
From: novavax!proxftl!aaron@bikini.cis.ufl.edu (Aaron Zimmerman)
Subject: Shannara

> As a little bit of homework, quote us a few pieces of literature (good or
> bad) that are not, thematically or in some other definable way related to
> previously 'published' works (whether of modern times ar antiquity
> matters little).

Of course all pieces of literature can be related to each other if you try
hard enough. The point being made was that Terry Brooks' work very strongly
resembled someone else's - in plot as well as theme and writing style. It
was just an opinion.

> If it takes the fun out of your reading to see things YOU regard as great
> copied in one way or other, then you might as well stop reading.

It doesn't take the fun out of my reading to see things I regard as great
copied in one way or another, so I don't stop reading.

> By the way, the comments above are not meant to be invective in any way.
> I just find it a little sad that a good story can be done away with just
> because it reminds you of something that is kind of sacred to you, and
> because you feel that this kind of plagiarism bothers you.

It's not really plagiarism; he was merely reviewing the book (series) as
being unoriginal in "Look and Feel" - not necessarily a statement that
they're bad, but just expressing a discomfort we all feel (I think) when
reading something that's so close a copy that deja vu dominates the joy of
reading.

Aaah, it's not worth arguing over; on my 3d re-read of what you said and
what I said, it doesn't seem too far apart, anyway.

Aaron Charles Zimmerman
Proximity Technology
3511 N-E 22nd Ave
Fort Ladeda, Fla

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 15:11:00 GMT
From: bradley!frodo@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Shanara

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>till@didsgn (didsgn) writes:
>>If it takes the fun out of your reading to see things YOU regard as
>>great copied in one way or other, then you might as well stop reading.
>
>There's copies and there's COPIES.

It's fine to have the same story with a new twist, but the same story is
the same story, and if the style is not outright exceptional, and there
doesn't seem to be any significant difference/improvement, why should I
bother to read a copy??  Better to re-read, and re-enjoy, the original.

>>I just find it a little sad that a good story can be done away with just
>>because it reminds you of something that is kind of sacred to you,
>
>It isn't a question of `sacred'.  I happen to love LOTR.  I also happen to
>love BOTR (the HarvLamp parody).

I think most modern fantasies more than just "remind" me of TLotR--Try
"they make me wonder if the author has any original imagination beyond a
few new names."

>>and because you feel that this kind of plagiarism bothers you.
>
>I've found it almost impossible to read most modern fantasy.  So much of
>it seems so derivative of Tolkien that I just can't stomach it.  I have no
>trouble with pre-Tolkien fantasy.  On net.recommendation and that of
>others, I decided to give Brust TRIH a shot, and he dazzled me with the
>technical brilliance of his conceptions, but overall the book left me
>cold: his world didn't seem so much alive but as an utterly perfect
>clockwork imitation.  I've never seen an author do that before.

I'll agree here, too, about modern fantasy.  I've found notable exceptions,
like R.A.MacAvoy's _Tea_with_the_Black_Dragon_, but most of it is cheap,
easy, no thought, copies of the quest storyline WITH NOTHING SIGNIFICANTLY
DIFFERENT from any other quest storyline.

As for "good" semi-derivative works, I liked the Thomas Covenant series,
because (although extremely derivative) it was a unique and interesting (to
me--let's not start this whole argument again) and different from "Mary
Jane and George play the parts of Frodo and Samwise in yet another quest
for some trinket".

>>(Oh yes. I liked all the Shannara tales. Not that they were exceptionally
>>brilliant- but on third re-read neither was LoTR- but they were good
>>stories nevertheless...)
>
>I've read LOTR over a dozen times.  Each time it seems incredibly fresh
>and original, as if I have never read the book before.

I thought that TLotR was brilliant every time I read it (4 or 5).  I found
new things that I hadn't noticed before EVERY TIME.  That is the mark of
great literature.  Most other modern fantasy, even that which I *like*, I
can't stand to read more than once, because I remember all this stuff, and
after a couple chapters it gets boring.

I enjoyed the first Shannara book very much, but I read it in early high
school when I hadn't been so innundated with the mass of BAD fantasy
available today.  It was pleasant.  I tried to read the other two books
(succeeding with the ElfStones) and I will admit that they are unique and
different from TLotR in a way the first wasn't, but I had no interest
whatsoever in the characters, and Mr. Brooks didn't do much to make me
care.  These don't fall (for me) in that horrid realm of direct copies of
Tolkien (although I suspect upon re-reading the first book would), I just
didn't care for them.

Personally, if you really want escape badly enough to read the same story
in a million trivially different variations, go ahead.  Just don't expect
me to agree that it's wonderful reading.

Pete Hartman
...ihnp4!bradley!frodo

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 03:06:32 GMT
From: ecarroll@cs.tcd.ie (Eddy Carroll)
Subject: Orson Scott Card

Does anyone have a complete list of the works of Orson Scott Card? I've
only read four of them (Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Wyrms and
Hart's Hope), all of which I very much enjoyed. Could anyone tell me what
the rest of them are like?
 
Eddy Carroll
ecarroll@cs.tcd.ie

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 15:23:54 GMT
From: utah-cs!esunix!krogers@cs.utexas.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Any Gordon Dickson fans?

   Are there any Gordon R. Dickson fans in netland who know when his next
book in the Childe Cycle is supposed to appear?  It's been 4+ years since
_The_Final_Encyclopedia_ came out and all I've seen since then are
collections of short stories (which were written a long time ago) and the
smallish odd novel or two.

Keith Rogers
Evans & Sutherland 

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 20:18:16 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and Fifth Column

barry@eos.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
> 	The book is called _Sixth Column_ (vt _The Day After Tomorrow_).
>
> 	The book has a definitely racist streak and, yes, he wrote it for
> Campbell, which is probably why. Heinlein's written of how the book came
> to be (anyone remember where? I can't recall). Basically, he said it was
> the first and last time that he wrote a made-to-order book.  Campbell had
> started it, but hadn't had time to write it after he took over editorship
> of Astounding, so he talked Heinlein into it. Heinlein toned down the
> racism as much as possible, but, as you know since you've read the book,
> certain racial ideas are central to the plot, and couldn't be excised.
> Anyway, Heinlein attributed his agreement to write the book to being new
> to writing, and says it taught him to stick to telling his own stories
> thereafter.

Sorry to disagree, Ken, I usually consider you my Heinlein expert; but I
think you've missed the boat this time.

The definition of racism that I am familiar with says that there are
mental, moral, and character differences that go along with the physical
differences that are recognizable in groups of humans that have been
genetically isolated for a long time.

Someone who is not a racist will contend that the mental, moral, and
character differences observed between different 'races' occur because of
culture.  They plop down firmly on the side of nurture as the cause of
these differences in the old 'nature vs nurture' argument.  The way to tell
a racist from a non-racist is to see how they feel about how children of
one 'race' turn out when raised in the culture of another 'race'.

As I recall Heinlein addressed this issue specifically. Note that the
differences that allowed weapons to be set for one race or another were
physical differences of the same sort as eye color or blood type.  Note
also that with the possible exception of Ardmore, the most sympathetic
character in the book is Japanese.  It is his being culturally an American
while being physically of Japanese ancestry that causes him to make the
sacrifice that allows the 'good guys' to win.  Note that Heinlein, who was
from California, created a wonderful self-sacrificing American of Japanese
ancestry DURING WORLD WAR II while this country was dumping such people
into concentration camps and confiscating their property.  To my mind this
the opposite of a racist book.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 14:26:13 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: A TIME TO REMEMBER by Stanley Shapiro

		   A TIME TO REMEMBER by Stanley Shapiro
		 Signet, 1988 (1986c), ISBN 0-451-15484-3
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Stanley Shapiro is described as having received many "major writing
awards, including the Writers Guild of America Award, the Academy Award,
the Golden Globe Award and the Laurel Award."  The Academy Award was for
his script for PILLOW TALK and his other screen credits are for similar
films.  So when a writer of "glossy comedies" (as film historian Leslie
Halliwell describes him) decides to write a serious time travel/alternate
history novel, how does he do?

     Frankly, not well.  Shapiro's science is designed to let the story
happen, not to make sense.  He postulates that people in the lab from which
the time traveler is sent back won't detect changes in the past until they
leave the lab (because it's shielded), but also that after they leave the
lab they will have BOTH sets of memories.  This would seem to make the
elaborate computer set-up described in the story unnecessary except as an
example of that recent cinematic trend, product placement.  (One wonders if
Apple paid for each mention of one of its products, judging from the way
trade names are used to excess.  For example, he says, "We then connected a
video camera to a MacVision computer, which in turn is connected to an
Apple Macintosh.  The camera photographs the newspaper's pages, then the
MacVision system digitizes the picture and puts it into MacPaint.  Two
powerful technologies are hooked up, video and the computer."  Is this an
ad or what?)  In addition, the whole book reads more like a script than a
novel, which I suppose shouldn't surprise me.

     The motivation isn't strong enough, and the plot predictable.  David
wants to go back to the Dallas of November 1963 and stop Kennedy's
assassination, hence preventing the Vietnam War and saving his brother
Christopher who died in it.  He botches it, creating an alternate branch in
which he does not achieve his goal.  His girlfriend Laura and Dr. Koopman
(the inventor of the time machine) detect this when they leave the lab and
so--you guessed it--Laura returns to Dallas one day earlier to bail David
out.  This is even more disastrous, and so....

     Silverberg did this in UP THE LINE with fewer characters (one, to be
precise, but he did have the advantage of a portable time machine).
Shapiro's alternate universes are not exactly original--he has your
standard fascist America, for example.  I did find it ironic
(intentionally, perhaps, on Shapiro's part) that in the fascist America
among other things, "it was unlawful to advocate atheism.  In keeping with
religious beliefs, homosexuality was prohibited."  Is this an alternate
history or just Georgia?

     A TIME TO REMEMBER is not being marketed as science fiction.  To the
mainstream market, it may present some new ideas, but to the science
fiction audiences it is a very mundane offering indeed.  I would observe
that as a story idea for a film, it does have some promise and would
probably be aimed at a combination of the same crowd that made BACK TO THE
FUTURE so popular and those of us who grew up in the 1960s--there are great
opportunities for 1960s' nostalgia here.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 88 05:54:39 EDT
From: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu (SF-LOVERS)
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #248
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 248

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Cabell & Campbell (3 msgs) &
                           Cherryh (2 msgs) & Dickson & 
                           McMahon (2 msgs) & 
                           The Beatles in SF (4 msgs) & 
                           Franchised Characters

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 21:20:23 GMT
From: anand@cmx.npac.syr.edu (Rangachari Anand)
Subject: James Branch Cabell

A while back I saw many recommendations for books written by James Branch
Cabell. I found the book "Jurgen, a comedy of Justice" and have just
finished reading it. Now, a while back, I had read "Job, A comedy of
justice" by Heinlein and enjoyed it very much. I liked Jurgen very much but
I am now getting the suspicion that there is far more to this complex book
than what I suspected. Never before have I seen a book so loaded with
allegory.

Job seems to be essentially a version of Jurgen brought up-to-date although
I enjoyed both.  Could someone recommend a good commentary on this book?
Also one thing has been puzzling me, i.e. Did JBC really write this book or
did he merely translate it to English? The preface is not very clear.

R. Anand
Internet: anand@amax.npac.syr.edu
Bitnet:   ranand@sunrise

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 05:01:03 GMT
From: unisv!vanpelt@ubvax.ub.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Sixth Column

60255873@wsuvm1.BITNET (Will Fitzpatrick) writes:
>In reference to _Sixth_Column_ by RAH:
>
>   This is actually a REWRITE of a Campbell story called _All_ which I
>came across in an anthology of Campbell's works called _The_Space_Beyond_.
>The theme of the story is VERY racist (at least in the Campbell version, I
>haven't read the RAH story so I can't compare) but if you take it as a
>creature of its time, it's a very entertaining slam-bang superscience
>story of the E.E. "Doc" Smith variety.

Really?  An anthology of Campbell's fiction that I haven't read?  Wow!
Where can I find a copy of this?  (Time to hit the used book stores again;
it's doubtless long out of print.)

>In fact, all of Campbell's work is of the gosh-wow Smith variety, but
>being a sucker for the real-old-fashioned space opera, I find it very
>appealing.

Campbell definitely wrote good Space Opera.  His trilogy, "The Black Star
Passes", "Islands of Space", and "Invaders From the Infinite" is one of the
works that really got me started in reading this stuff.  (Actually, I only
came across "Invaders" recently, and I didn't think it was nearly as good.)
I also enjoyed "The Cloak of Aesir" greatly, though even then, I recognized
the "science" as painfully wretched.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 03:49:18 GMT
From: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Steve Greenland)
Subject: Re: Sixth Column

60255873@wsuvm1.BITNET (Will Fitzpatrick) writes:
>In fact, all of Campbell's work is of the gosh-wow Smith variety, but
>being a sucker for the real-old-fashioned space opera, I find it very
>appealing.

While that may be generally true (I haven't read a whole lot of Cambell's
fiction) I would hardly call "The Thing" (under the psuedonym "Don Stuart")
gosh-wow space opera. I think it's about the best of its type (monster from
beyond, but exceedingly well done).

steveg
ARPA: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu
      steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!hub!squid!steveg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 16:10:46 GMT
From: unisv!vanpelt@ubvax.ub.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Campbell's fiction, was Sixth Column

g-rh@CCA.CCA.COM (Richard Harter) writes:
>vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>>I also enjoyed "The Cloak of Aesir" greatly, though even then, I
>>recognized the "science" as painfully wretched.
.
>More wretched in retrospect, but wretched nonetheless.  It is hard to
>appreciate today how much our understanding of the nature of technology
>and science has changed over the last fifty years.

That's a good point -- Campbell's SF was all written in the 30's or
earlier, before he became editor of Astounding, and it should be read with
that in mind.  Stuff like generating nuclear power by bombarding calcium
with neutrons may well have seemed reasonable back then.

I had a similar problem with E. E. 'Doc' Smith's "Skylark" novels -- the
science was indescribably off-the-wall.  Then I looked at the date the
first one was written -- 1918.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 16:18:55 GMT
From: looking!brad@math.waterloo.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Hani vs. Humans

While somebody suggested the Hani could beat the Kzin because the humans
could, this brings up the topic of the relative strengths of the humans and
the Hani in the Chanur series.

I got fleeting impressions at various points that human civilization was
way beyond the Hani and other non-KNNN compact species.  It was never
resolved.

Some facts:

o) In compact space, the rule seems to be that lighter ships go faster and
   can take shorter routes.  Yet in human space, we get the impression that
   the big ships usually do the routes faster.  Is this only because they
   have full time crews to do it.

o) Humans have REALLY big ships.  Crews of hundreds and more, with whole
   generations of families.   And these ships are all sitting ducks for
   human military.  The compact people don't seem to have this.

o) Human space stations are worlds, not stations.  Some have populations in
   the hundreds of thousands, or more.  That's because humans were forced
   to build their civilization in space without proximity to Earth.
   The Han world itself doesn't seem that heavily populated.

o) Humans reportedly fired on KNNN and lived to tell about it.

But in the end it's never resolved.  There are inconsistent clues either
way.  I wonder what Cherryh really means?

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 15:48:21 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Hani vs. Humans

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
> I got fleeting impressions at various points that human civilization was
> way beyond the Hani and other non-KNNN compact species.  It was never
> resolved.

I got the feeling that the technologies were rather close to each other in
developmental terms.

> Some facts:
> 
> o) In compact space, the rule seems to be that lighter ships go faster
> and can take shorter routes.  Yet in human space, we get the impression
> that the big ships usually do the routes faster.  Is this only because
> they have full time crews to do it.

The difference in compact space (and human spece) seems to be a matter of
power to mass ratio.  In "Merchanter's Luck," the reason that 'Dublin
Again' comes after 'Le Cygne' so fast is that she's traveling without
cargo.  It is speculated that it is her faster trip ever.

Remember that when the Mahe wanted 'Pride' to get home faster, they put on
a hunter-ship sized drive system.

> o) Humans have REALLY big ships.  Crews of hundreds and more, with whole
> generations of families.  And these ships are all sitting ducks for human
> military.  The compact people don't seem to have this.

Point 1--thousands.  About 3,000 for a fully crewed Maziani carrier
("Merchanter's Luck" again) and 2,000 for 'Dublin Again' with similar
numbers for 'Finity's End'.  Point 2--Allison Reilly believes those two
merchanters to be a possible match for a carrier in a hand-to-hand fight.
(She's probably wildly optomistic.)

The Mahe and Kif hunter ships don't seem to be that large.

> o) Human space stations are worlds, not stations.  Some have populations
> in the hundreds of thousands, or more.  That's because humans were forced
> to build their civilization in space without proximity to Earth.  The Han
> world itself doesn't seem that heavily populated.

Population of stations--you bet.  They're big.  The Meetpoint station seems
to be pretty large too, but not like Pell.

> o) Humans reportedly fired on KNNN and lived to tell about it.

Perhaps the Knnn put it down to ignorance--once.

> But in the end it's never resolved.  There are inconsistent clues either
> way.  I wonder what Cherryh really means?

Why not ask her?

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 04:48:58 GMT
From: unisv!vanpelt@ubvax.ub.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Any Gordon Dickson fans?

krogers@esunix.UUCP (Keith Rogers) writes:
>   Are there any Gordon R. Dickson fans in netland who know when his next
>book in the Childe Cycle is supposed to appear?  It's been 4+ years since
>_The_Final_Encyclopedia_ came out and all I've seen since then are
>collections of short stories (which were written a long time ago) and the
>smallish odd novel or two.

I don't know when the next Childe novel is going to appear.  I'm waiting
for "Way of the Pilgrim", which is, I hope, the complete story which has
dribbled out in bits and pieces since the first fragment appeared in Analog
back in the mid-70's.  (I think I want to make SURE this is really the
complete story before I buy it.  I'd really hate to find out it's the first
book of a trilogy that may never be completed.)

One of the first SF novels I ever read was Dickson's "Soldier Ask Not".  I
wasn't ready for it, and was totally lost as to what was going on.  (I was,
I think, in the 6'th grade at the time.)  Most everything else of his that
I've read I've really enjoyed -- especially the Dilbian stories,
"Spacepaw", "Spacial Delivery", and "The Law-Twister Shorty".  They're
fluff, sure, but very good entertaining fluff.  "The Alien Way" is one of
my favorite "serious" SF stories.  And I've liked the Dorsai stories I've
read more recently.
 
I really should get a copy of "Soldier Ask Not" and read it again.  What I
really want to do is get all the parts of the Childe cycle and read them
from the beginning.  Does anyone have a suggested order of reading?  Start
with "Necromancer", I guess, but where to from there?

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@unisv.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 16:21:46 GMT
From: btree!brookn@ucsd.edu (Paul Francis)
Subject: Re: LOVING LITTLE EGYPT by Thomas McMahon

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>
>		    LOVING LITTLE EGYPT by Thomas McMahon
>	       Penguin, 1988 (1987c) ISBN 0-14-009331-1
>		      A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
>
>     This is a work of fiction.  Just because in it Nikola Tesla invents a
>machine that could shake a building to rubble doesn't mean that he really
>did.

Just because Evelyn C. Leeper tells us that Tesla never built his building
shaker doesn't mean that in never was built.

When he was in New York he built a shaker that was hooked up to the main
steel girders of his lab.  When the machine was turned on it shook the
building so much that most people thought it was an earthquake.  The
tremors could be felt for 2 or 3 blocks.

Now we could say that Tesla never built this machine because he turned his
shaker off before the building was destroyed.  8-)

Paul Francis
backbone!ucsd!btree!brookn

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 13:34:52 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: LOVING LITTLE EGYPT by Thomas McMahon

brookn@btree.UCSD.EDU (Paul Francis) writes:
> ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>>     This is a work of fiction.  Just because in it Nikola Tesla invents
>>a machine that could shake a building to rubble doesn't mean that he
>>really did.
> Just because Evelyn C. Leeper tells us that Tesla never built his
> building shaker doesn't mean that in never was built.

I never said he didn't build it; I said that people shouldn't take this
book's word for it.  (Certainly some of what is in this book is based on
fact--I'm not going to try to figure out precisely what.)

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl 
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 12:35:30 GMT
From: mind!derek@princeton.princeton.edu (Derek Gross)
Subject: Re: Beatles Science Fiction Story

MG@CRNLNS.BITNET writes:
>   For those of you who may be lovers of science fiction, check out a
>short story called "Doin' Lennon".  It's about a John imposter who awakens
>in the distant future.  It can be found in the short story collection IN
>ALIEN FLESH by Gregory Benford.  This is the only Beatles oriented science
>fiction story that I've come across.  Anyone know of any others?

Yeah, there was one in Omni magazine (where I think the Benford story also
originally appeared) about John and Paul meeting in heaven.  It was full of
Beatles inside jokes and references, which were footnoted and explained at
the end.  It was reprinted in The Best of Omni Science Fiction #5, I think.

This was about six years ago and the details of my recollections cannot be
trusted.  The story does exist, though.

Derek Gross
derek@mind.princeton.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 18:16:08 GMT
From: jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: Beatles Science Fiction Story

derek@mind.princeton.edu (Derek Gross) writes:
>MG@CRNLNS.BITNET writes:
>>   For those of you who may be lovers of science fiction, check out a
>>short story called "Doin' Lennon".  It's about a John imposter who
>>awakens in the distant future.  It can be found in the short story
>>collection IN ALIEN FLESH by Gregory Benford.  This is the only Beatles
>>oriented science fiction story that I've come across.  Anyone know of any
>>others?
>Yeah, there was one in Omni magazine (where I think the Benford story also
>originally appeared) about John and Paul meeting in heaven.  It was full
>of Beatles inside jokes and references, which were footnoted and explained
>at the end.  It was reprinted in The Best of Omni Science Fiction #5, I
>think.
.
>This was about six years ago and the details of my recollections cannot be
>trusted.  The story does exist, though.

You may be speaking of the Spider Robinson short-story "Rubber Soul".  It
can be found in the collection "Melancholy Elephants" by the author.
Instead of being about John and Paul meeting in Heaven, it was about
bringing John back to life with a new process.  It was chock-full of
Beatles in-jokes and references, all thoroughly footnooted and explained by
Robinson at the end of the story, so I think this might be the one you're
thinking of. What do you think?

Jennifer Hawthorne 
..!mit-eddie!athena.mit.edu!jen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 14:45:44 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay C. Smith)
Subject: Re: Beatles Science Fiction Story

MG@CRNLNS.BITNET writes:
>     This is the only Beatles oriented science fiction story that I've
>come across.  Anyone know of any others?

There was one in Fantasy & Science Fiction a few years ago.  It was about
an old Latin American resistance movement leader whose nursing home dream
was to see the Beatles again, or something like that.  A reporter managed
to arrange it, and I won't give away the rest of the story....

Sorry I can't remember the title or the author, but I remember the cover
featured an old woman in a wheel chair watching the Beatles in shadow --
with a right-handed Paul!

Jay C. Smith
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu        
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu
uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 88 14:21:00 GMT
From: reynolds_l@apollo.com (Lee Reynolds)
Subject: Re. Beatles in science fiction....

...A funny thing, but the gentleman's question jogged my memory as regards
a rather eerie (in later lights) story......

   About 15-20 years ago, when living in England, I remember reading a
story which, if I remember correctly, was called "The man who killed John
Lennon". It was in a book of science fiction (I think) and told (from the
killer's viewpoint) the tale of a man who killed Lennon in order to be able
to masquerade as him....kind of a case of "You always kill the one you
love".

   No, not made up, or bullshit, but something odd from a long time ago and
no, "Rubber Soul" is definitely not the story I am thinking of - I read
that one and that was what started me thinking about the earlier story.

   Anyone out there got a handle on this one?

Lee

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 88 13:41:05 GMT
From: dl1@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (D.Langford)
Subject: Franchised characters

Apologies if it's been covered recently (this group generates so many
postings that I may have missed it) but what's the feeling on other writers
picking up on an original universe/ set of characters, after the original
author sells out?

I'm thinking particularly of Niven, with his Kzin and Warlock spin offs,
but there are other examples around. Seems to me that franchised sequels
are potentially like a tired TV series - most of the original excitement
long gone, but being kept going to squeeze out the last cent. I don't like
it.  I know that everyone and their dog reckons they can write a sequel to
their favorite book - including me - but I still don't like it.

Do the readers who've made an author rich and successful deserve better?
Or should we be grateful for even an ersatz continuation of a favorite
scenario?

Duncan Langford
Computing Lab.
Kent University, UK
dl1@ukc. ac. uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 88 05:55:30 EDT
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 23 Aug 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 249

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 13:15:22 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
[ Examples of rude, evil, and bizzarre behaviour at cons ]
> Why is it happening?  It isn't clear, but I have some rather vague
> theories, which have started solidifying due to conversations with
> others.

When did this start happening? I haven't been to a con in years, but I
don't recall any large scale unruliness (apart from stories about the
legendary Mythcon where the "wine flowed like water and the drugs flowed
like wine").  About the only incident I recall was at a con, I think in the
Red Lion in San Jose, where some large brass elevator doors were
vandalised. They were replaced by the con with the proceeds from a special
auction.

Down here in Texas the biggest problem seems to be restraining the "Killer"
and "TAG" players.

When, exactly, did this chaos start happening?

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 22:29:02 GMT
From: guy@b11.uucp (Guy Streeter)
Subject: Re: New Orleans Information

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
> Well, Worldcon is only about two weeks off, so it's time to start
> planning ahead.
> 
> I have never been to New Orleans, so I have been asking friends at
> work about "what to do" in New Orleans.  Here's what I found out:
> 
> K-Paul's -- Cajun food

Over-Spiced and Over-Priced.

> Tippatina's, Napoleon St., toward river from Magazine
>     bar for music

Tippitina's is a Jazz club -- mostly modern (not Dixieland).  The Neville
Brothers live nearby and sometimes drop in to play.

> Commanders, Washington and Colesium (in the Garden district)
>      good for lunch

 - or dinner, or Jazz Brunch on Sat. and Sun.  Reservations recommended,
coat required.

> Brennans
>      breakfast or lunch

Because Brennans serves breakfast, people overlook their excellent dinners.
Brennans has possibly the best wine-cellar in N.O., as well.

> Cafe Spisas, Decatur, near French Market

"Cafe S'Bisa" is the spelling I remember.  Excellent food.

> Also, go to the French Market for coffee

The Cafe du Monde for cafe au lait.  If you just order coffee, they'll ask
you if you want milk in it.  You want milk in it. New Orleans coffee always
contains Chicory, which makes it taste stronger, and the Cafe du Monde's
coffee is almost espresso.

> Audobon Park and zoo

 The Audubon Park is just a park, but you can take the streetcar (it's not
a "trolley") to it.  City Park is nicer but father away (you have to pay an
extra nickle and transfer to a bus for a few blocks).  The Zoo is great.

Consider also going to The Gumbo Shop in the Quarter for dinner, or The
Home Furnishings Cafe for lunch.  The Home Furnishings Cafe is upstairs at
Halpern's Home Furnishings, Pritania at Melpomene.  The best food in N.O.,
and very reasonably priced.  Try the Spinach Fettucini.  Another good and
cheap place to eat lunch in the Central Business District is Martin's Wine
Cellar.  Bull's Corner and Mr. B's Bistro, both in the Quarter, are good
(but not cheap) for lunch and dinner.  Petunia's, on St. Louis in the
Quarter, has the world's best crepes.  The Camillia Grill and the River
Bend restaurant are on the streetcar route.

If you have the time, take in a movie, show, or concert at the Saenger
Theater.  The theater itself is worth the admission to a classic movie,
which is usually what's showing there.  A concert or excursion on the
Riverboat President is always fun.  Check the paper for free concerts in
Spanish Plaza or one of the parks.  Wander around the French Quarter (it
isn't that big) and go to the French Market.  You'll probably tire of
Bourbon St. after one visit (at night) but you should see it anyway.

Guy Streeter
...uunet!ingr!b11!guy
ingr!b11!guy@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 22:36:04 GMT
From: gethen!abostick@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Timecon Review

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>The problem may not be the actual fen.  In recent years there seem to be
>more and more miscellaneous "hangers on."  It is these people--not the
>dedicated sf readers that appear to cause the trouble.  Unfortunately, the
>hotels do not seem to be able to tell the difference--after all, they just
>want the damage bill paid.  One of the things to con committee can do is go
>to the hotel and point out that, as the damage was in public areas, there
>is no justification in trying to charge the con for the damage.

Of course there is justification.  Doesn't creating and maintaining an
attractive nuisance count for something?

The hotels aside, how do WE tell the difference between "hangers-on"
(obnoxious teenagers who have never been to cons before, don't know social
niceties, and make trouble) and neofans?  I was a neofan once, and made
quite an ass of myself; I was still welcomed to fandom with open arms.
That's not happening these days, for some reason.

>Perhaps this underlies the trend to limiting con memberships.  The next
>move might be to take *only* pre-reg memberships.

A cure worse than the disease!  While I am not one to suffer fools gladly,
I have seen what happens to social groups that don't have open conduits for
new blood -- they stagnate and wither.  Pre-reg only conventions will lead
to conventions with next to no new blood.  This is a recipe for boring
conventions.

Alan Bostick
ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 22:23:48 GMT
From: gethen!abostick@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

booter@pyrnova.UUCP (Elaine Richards sysadm) writes:
>jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) writes:
>>cratz@datack.UUCP (Tony Cratz) writes:
>>>	The Hotel Liaison has been asked for find a new site for Timecon.
>>Does this have anything to do with the article in the SJ Mercury this
>>morning about hotel theft?  A spokesperson for the Red Lion said that the
>>Timecon folks are the biggest thieves they've ever experienced, that they
>>tear down the lights in the halls, etc.  Did the Red Lion decide that
>>having Timecon is more trouble than it's worth?
.
> [deleted stuff, chief content being that the con was identified in the
> story as "an annual sf convention" held at the SJ Red Lion]
.
>As a former sci-fi con fanatic, it *is* embarrassing to read such
>information. Perhaps the fandom community needs to sit down and get
>a reality check - stealing is not nice.

It is a more widely spread problem than most fans seem to realize.  It is
NOT limited to the so-called "fringe" conventions, e.g. Dr. Who, STrek,
comics, etc., but throughout the the community of sf- and similar sorts of
conventions.

The Red Lion hotels as a chain have been taking a dim view of SF
conventions over the past couple of years; apparently based on a bad
experience with Norwescon in Seattle.  That convention, once one of the
best in the country, had outgrown its old hotel, the Seatac airport Hyatt,
and moved to the Red Lion just down the road two years ago.  That
convention was a weird scene; apparently the convention had come to attract
Seattle's leather and chains set, as well as 'conventional' fandom.  There
were hotel rooms trashed by congoing occupants, and alleged incidents of
public copulation in the hallways.  The Red Lion managment was Not Pleased;
they not only made it clear that SF conventions (of ANY kind) were no
longer welcome there, but effectively blacklisted Norwescon in Seattle
hotels.  This year's Norwescon was

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 25 Aug 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 250

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 02:37:59 GMT
From: looking!brad@math.waterloo.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

One can hardly be surprised at the attitude many Hotels have to SF cons.
Particularly if you compare them to business conferences.  I expect that
they only take SF cons because they're not expecting other major weekend
business.  If they had the choice, I know what they would take.

 o) Fen are not wealthy, as a rule, and will do everything to cut down
    the cost.  This includes putting as many people in a room as they
    possibly can.

 o) Local cons have a fairly high amount of attendance from locals who are
    not booking rooms at the hotel.

 o) SF cons really are noisier, and roudier, and often teens are present.
    Business conferences do not usually have all-night open door parties.
    And there is vandalism, or at least a higher risk of it.

 o) SF cons do not usually involve things like hospitality suites with
    hotel catered free bars and food.

 o) All the fen walking around in costume are likely to discourage
    mundane customers from using the hotel during the con.

All in all, from a hotel manager's viewpoint, it's not too surprising that
many of them take a dim view.  If somebody tried to hold anything less than
a Worldcon during weekdays, I suspect they would have a lot of trouble
finding a good hotel.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 18:17:56 GMT
From: SSKATZ@pucc.princeton.edu (Seth S. Katz)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
>[ Examples of rude, evil, and bizzarre behaviour at cons ]
>
>> Why is it happening?  It isn't clear, but I have some rather vague
>> theories, which have started solidifying due to conversations with
>> others.
  
The problems of widescale vandalism at conventions has apparently only
become widespread in the last 2-3 years.  I suspect (personal theory based
on observations at Boskone 24) that a number of local folk have learned
that sfcon=weekend party.  At Boskone, a lot of the vandalism, drugs, etc.
were from people not a part of the con.  At Castlecon, we had the problem
of people trying to crash the con without paying.
 
Someone raised a point about closed parties and snobbish behavior.  One of
the reasons parties are becoming closed is that cons have a tighter
alchohol policy.  At many cons, alchohol is verbotten at open parties, so
parties are closed instead.
 
Harold Feld
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6103014

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 19:12:38 GMT
From: c3pe!gypsy@decuac.dec.com (maybelline)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
>[ Examples of rude, evil, and bizzarre behaviour at cons ]
>> Why is it happening?  It isn't clear, but I have some rather vague
>> theories, which have started solidifying due to conversations with
>> others.
>
>When did this start happening? I haven't been to a con in years, but I
>don't recall any large scale unruliness (apart from stories about the
>legendary Mythcon where the "wine flowed like water and the drugs flowed
>like wine").  About the only incident I recall was at a con, I think in
>the Red Lion in San Jose, where some large brass elevator doors were
>vandalised. They were replaced by the con with the proceeds from a special
>auction.

Take the example of Unicon '85.  Among the disasters at this one were:
	
   Someone under the influence of some drug kicking out a plate glass
   window in the lobby.

   People ripping wallpaper off the walls.

   Fen throwing a fire extinguisher out a 10th story window.

   Boy Scouts staying in the hotel taking the above example and throwing a
   chair off the roof.

   Fen caught camping on the roof.

   The hotel attempted to impose a curfew of 2 a.m. in the halls after
   which time anyone found outside their room would be thrown out.

   Hotel broke into rooms at midnight on Saturday demanding
   full payment for rooms that had not been paid for in advance.

Now, most cons I've been to in this area have not been anywhere NEAR as bad
as this, but there have been similar problems since about a year after I
started to go to conventions.  I think the problems come from two areas:
number one, the hotels are so afraid of trouble that they are rabid about
security; this has been a problem at nearly every con I have been to
lately.  Secondly, there has been a large influx of a different sort of fen
in the past couple of years.  A lot of people have been bringing in their
non-fen friends.  These people don't see the con as an opportunity to
socialise so much as a huge party.  They come to drink and act crazy in an
atmosphere where craziness is acceptable -- but their idea of craziness
differs a bit from ours.  Also, while someone who has been going to cons
for a long time will know the possible consequences and try to avoid
trouble, these new people don't always know -- or care -- what happens when
a convention is too much trouble for a hotel.

I don't know what might be done about this, but I think something needs to
be done to educate these people about what is and is not acceptable
behavior at a convention.  I have no ideas.  If anyone else does, you
should certainly post them, because I think we could all use the advice.

gypsy @ uunet!netxcom!sundc!c3pe!gypsy

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 22:21:52 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: New Orleans Information

guy@b11.UUCP (Guy Streeter) writes:
>lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
  [a lot of recommendations about things to do in NOLa]
To add to the food list: try just about any of the small restaurants which
are on the perimeter of the tourist section of the French Quarter, and
order red beans and rice.  Properly prepared, it's a good meal and quite
tasty when properly seasoned with pork chops, ham hock, and/or sausage.

A few comments, in no particular order:

  Street names change when they cross Canal Street entering the French
  Quarter.  A good map of the downtown streets can be a lifesaver.

  Pronunciation is decidedly NOT that which would satisfy a Frenchman.
  Chartres Street is pronounced 'CHART-ers', for example.  I leave it to
  your imagination the street which some locals call MELL-po-MEEN.

  Unless you know a lot about the layout of the Quarter and/or hold a black
  belt and can beat Rambo with one arm [you get the idea] don't go beyond
  the populated sections of the French Quarter at night.  The safe sections
  are usually the ones with tourist traffic on the sidewalks.  (Yes, this
  is a conservative recommendation, but there are less safe sections
  immediately adjacent to the tourist areas.)

  Don't go to the places which feel compelled to hire barkers to tout their
  services.  With a few exceptions they are tourist traps.

  Take one of the riverboat tours.  Do it at dusk, and make sure you bring
  a camera with color film.

  Ride the streetcar.  Unless someone has broken with tradition, they are
  still the "new" 1923 St. Louis Car Company cars (900-series car numbers)
  The "old" 1922 cars (800-series) were retired a few years ago.  As far as
  I know the only significant change made since they were new was the
  remote control on the rear door; until the 1970's (?) the motorman had
  the controls for the front door and the conductor operated the rear.
 
  Do see the Audubon Park Zoo.  Not too long ago it was almost closed due
  to humane society pressure; it's now something the city is proud of.
 
  Oh yes...have fun.  Laissiz les bon temps roullez!

Joe Morris

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 04:59:09 GMT
From: usenet@nancy.uucp (Usenet file owner)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

Alan Bostick writes...
> In point of fact, something seems to have changed significantly, and in
> my opinion for the worse, in fandom, particularly at conventions.  We
> seem to have lost interest in new arrivals, except to the extent that
> they jeapordize 'our' conventions by raising hell and pulling fire
> alarms.  When I was a neofan, in the middle seventies, I raised hell,
> made smartassed remarks, behaved obnoxiously, and drank too much ... and
> still hooked up with the fannish social establishment and got invited to
> private parties at cons.  Today's new teenagers in fandom raise hell,
> make smartassed remarks, behave obnoxiously, drink too much, and get
> snubbed.

I tried to write a little about this in the aftermath of the Boskone
debacle, but no one seemed to agree with me.

The biggest thing that's changed, Alan, is the number of the new arrivals.
SF fandom, as it developed from the 1930's through the early 1970's, had a
small-town aspect to it -- most fans knew most other fans -- and it had an
evangelical aspect to it -- the small town wanted to recruit new residents.
These aspects still permeate much of the social "organization" of fandom.
 
But SF has moved from being the literature of a minority to being a big
part of the mainstream; SF and fantasy movies dominate the list of
most-commercially-successful films, and SF books regularly crack the
best-seller lists.  The evangelical aspect is no longer needed; people who
have discovered SF books and movies flock to conventions.  And, as a
result, the small-town nature of fandom, in which most fans knew most other
fans, is rapidly breaking down, being replaced with a more urban attitude
where fans pay attention only to their "neighbors".  It's just not possible
for the established fans to welcome and socialize the newcomers; there are
too many of them.

The resulting anonymity of many attendees, I believe, leads to the
misbehaviour which is coming to plague the larger conventions.

Another change: the fandom which Alan and I entered in the mid-70's was
still a place in which one DID things.  What defined you as a fan was what
you did in pursuit of your interest in SF; you wrote for or published
fanzines, you wrote letters, you worked on conventions.  There was a sort
of service ethic to it; "-We are our own entertainment.-" This is what
distinguished SF fans from SF readers.  Today, many of the crowds coming to
the large contemporary convention come to be entertained; they do not bring
anything to the community, and in fact when the convention is over they are
not really connected to the community until the next convention.

Hal Heydt wrote a little bit about minors at conventions.  This is going
off on a bit of a tangent, but I believe that in the current, anonymous
nature of large SF conventions, the presence of large numbers of minors,
quite a few of them drinking illegally, will eventually result in a serious
legal action.  When this happens, convention fandom will be shaken to its
core, because hotels won't want to deal with conventions which get them
sued.  (A bit apocalyptic there, perhaps; but there is this fantasy in
various portions of fandom that Laws and Social Norms are Suspended During
Conventions, and this fantasy is going to get people into trouble
eventually.)

I have a theory: any regional SF convention which exceeds 4000 attendees
will be thrown out of its hotel amid great brouhaha.  To the best of my
knowledge we have two sample points, the Norwescon in the Red Lion and the
Boskone Debacle.

Enough amateur sociology...

Ken Josenhans
UUCP:...{uunet,rutgers}!umix!itivax!msudoc!krj  
BITNET: 13020KRJ@MSU
Internet: krj@frith.egr.msu.edu      

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 88 19:15:46 GMT
From: NJS@IBM.COM (Nicholas Simicich)
Subject: @ party at Worldcon

My wife and I have had the pleasure of hosting the @ party at Worldcon for
the last couple of years.  We'd be pleased to hold it again.
 
We will be at the Marriott Hotel, and would like to hold it at around 9:00
PM on Saturday.  According to the Worldcon folks, this will probably be
sometime during the Costume contest, perhaps between the first and second
run through.  Look for the usual "@" notices.
 
As usual, the party will be closed to those who can give a network address
(or at least come up with a plausible fake :-) ).  We plan to have some
sort of computer equipment on hand for the report and attendee list.  And,
as in the past, I will accept Internet, Bitnet, Vnet and other connected
networks (EARN, etc.).
 
Hope to see you there.  We plan to have refreshments available.
 
[Moderator's Note: Yes, this is the "official first announcement" of the @!
party.  Watch the poster boards at the con for more details.  Thanks to
Evelyn Leeper for forwarding this to me since it apparently got "lost in
the mail" and thanks to Nicholas Simicich and his wife for volunteering to
host the party!]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 21:42:50 GMT
From: wauford@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (Melissa Wauford)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
>[ Examples of rude, evil, and bizzarre behaviour at cons ]
>> Why is it happening?  It isn't clear, but I have some rather vague
>> theories, which have started solidifying due to conversations with
>> others.
>
>When did this start happening? I haven't been to a con in years, but I
>don't recall any large scale unruliness (apart from stories about the
>legendary Mythcon where the "wine flowed like water and the drugs flowed
>like wine").

Well, the biggie, as mentioned before, was Boskone last year, but it's a
trend that seems to have been ramping up since the late 70's or early 80's
(there was, after all, a reason for instituting weapons policies).  Some
folks think that the trouble is coming from so-called media fen, and there
IS a correlation between the release of _Star Wars_ and the start of the
current troubles.  I think, however, that the trouble is coming more from
the overall increase in attendance at cons which is only partly due to the
media fans.  The more people you have the more bad apples you are likely to
have.  Also big cons seem to be drawing a lot more people who don't even
join the con, they just crash the parties.

Of course, the flaw in this theory is that the biggest cons of all, i.e,
the Worldcons, don't seem to be having the same troubles as some of the big
regionals.  Even LAcon II, which was HUGE and which had a lot of "drop-in"
members, didn't have much of a problem with vandalism and general
hooliganism.  Perhaps Worldcons expend more effort on security.  Or perhaps
they are SO big that there are plenty of open parties to keep everyone
happy (and enough people around to make it difficult to get away with
anything).  It's a tough problem.  It is slowly destroying the sf
community's formerly EXCELLENT reputation in the hotel business, something
which will take a long time to regain, if and when this foolishness ever
quits.  I suspect it is something that will heal itself in time.  I just
hope it isn't a long time.

Melissa Wauford
wauford@UTKCS2.CS.UTK.EDU 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 17:04:07 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

>One can hardly be surprised at the attitude many Hotels have to SF cons.
>Particularly if you compare them to business conferences.

Until recently (say about 5 years ago), SF cons were consider a good
booking by hotels. Fans were among the >least< destructive of the various
groups that hold cons. Attendees >drank< almost as much at the bar as the
legendary English teachers. The major profit center for a hotel during any
con is the bar.

This was back when the average age of a con fan was 30. Now the age
distribution tends to be bi-modal. You have a group centered around 30 and
another group center around 17. The problem with cons appears to have
started when this age split occurred.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 25 Aug 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 251

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 19:56:59 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Timecon Review

lkirk@muddcs.Claremont.EDU (Laura Kirk) writes:
> Well, I have been to cons where you were not allowed in the swimming pool
> area unless you had a room key... Those involved with the Con, but not
> staying in thier own room had to borrow a key from a friend.

Which may make those *friends* liable if someone drowns . . .

> One more comment: All the Cons that I have gone to were before I was 18.
> I went with a group of friends.  We had no willing adults to accompany
> us, but we were (for the most part) very well behaved.  Now that we are
> all over 18, most are still going (It is just lack of opportunity now).
> Most of them are much more obnoxious now than then, and much more likely
> to be those sorts that upset security.

The good behavior is what counts.

The worst--but not the most damaging--behavior I have any reasonably direct
knowledge was by an adult (of about 40-50) at, but not part of a con.  Two
members of one of the large fraternal organizations (Moose, Elk, Shriners
type) passed a staircase where the wife of a prominent SF artist was
resting (she was on crutches at the time and sat down to rest for a short
time).  I think the first one may have kicked her injured leg
accidently--but the second did it deliberately.  I consider this
unpardonable--but it does not threaten others.  Trashing a hotel room
threatens cons collectively.

> I know this is not always true-- I know a couple of ``younger sorts'' who
> should not be allowed in the vicinity of civilization, and give the
> ``younger generation'' a bad name.  But they aren't everyone, and you
> would have more success limiting problems by limiting the early 20s
> crowd.

There is one major difference--the early twenties can be held legally
accountable, and I would hope that if they're bright enough to find their
way to a SF con they know it.  Under 18--you have to go after the parents
and, as noted above, the parents may not be available.

I *don't* wish to see restrictions placed on con attendance for arbitrary
reasons.  It's bad for cons and fans alike, but I sure wish I knew of some
other way to deal with the problem.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 21:42:50 GMT
From: wauford@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (Melissa Wauford)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
>[ Examples of rude, evil, and bizzarre behaviour at cons ]
>> Why is it happening?  It isn't clear, but I have some rather vague
>> theories, which have started solidifying due to conversations with
>> others.
>
>When did this start happening? I haven't been to a con in years, but I
>don't recall any large scale unruliness (apart from stories about the
>legendary Mythcon where the "wine flowed like water and the drugs flowed
>like wine").

Well, the biggie, as mentioned before, was Boskone last year, but it's a
trend that seems to have been ramping up since the late 70's or early 80's
(there was, after all, a reason for instituting weapons policies).  Some
folks think that the trouble is coming from so-called media fen, and there
IS a correlation between the release of _Star Wars_ and the start of the
current troubles.  I think, however, that the trouble is coming more from
the overall increase in attendance at cons which is only partly due to the
media fans.  The more people you have the more bad apples you are likely to
have.  Also big cons seem to be drawing a lot more people who don't even
join the con, they just crash the parties.

Of course, the flaw in this theory is that the biggest cons of all, i.e,
the Worldcons, don't seem to be having the same troubles as some of the big
regionals.  Even LAcon II, which was HUGE and which had a lot of "drop-in"
members, didn't have much of a problem with vandalism and general
hooliganism.  Perhaps Worldcons expend more effort on security.  Or perhaps
they are SO big that there are plenty of open parties to keep everyone
happy (and enough people around to make it difficult to get away with
anything).  It's a tough problem.  It is slowly destroying the sf
community's formerly EXCELLENT reputation in the hotel business, something
which will take a long time to regain, if and when this foolishness ever
quits.  I suspect it is something that will heal itself in time.  I just
hope it isn't a long time.

Melissa Wauford
wauford@UTKCS2.CS.UTK.EDU 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 19:45:21 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

usenet@nancy.UUCP writes:
> Hal Heydt wrote a little bit about minors at conventions.  This is going
> off on a bit of a tangent, but I believe that in the current, anonymous
> nature of large SF conventions, the presence of large numbers of minors,
> quite a few of them drinking illegally, will eventually result in a
> serious legal action.  When this happens, convention fandom will be
> shaken to its core, because hotels won't want to deal with conventions
> which get them sued.  (A bit apocalyptic there, perhaps; but there is
> this fantasy in various portions of fandom that Laws and Social Norms are
> Suspended During Conventions, and this fantasy is going to get people
> into trouble eventually.)

Too damned right!  At least with an adult, you can settle fault in a way
that it will be coverd.  Most con committees are at great risk of
*personal* losses.  (That's what limited liability corporations are for.)
What happens the first time some committee gets sued for their backteeth?
Either because they won't (or can't) pay for damages done to the hotel, or
little Johnny gets hurt (or worse) because the damn fool got smashed at
somebodys party and fell out a window?  Somehow--I don't think a jury is
going to buy the typical explanations. . .

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 23:49:19 GMT
From: gethen!abostick@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Timecon Review

slouie@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Shelley Louie) writes:
>As for the light fixtures, I'm guessing they're talking about the silver
>colored plastic things they used in the halls covering the fluorescent
>lights.  Pretty cheap stuff.  If they are talking about the incident I'm
>thinking of, all that needs to be said are "kids", "alcohol", and
>"immature".

Unfortunately, this is not all that needs to be said.  It is only the
beginning of what needs to be said.

In the first place, if it pisses the hotel off, it pisses the hotel off.
Far too many recent regional conventions have been made unwelcome at their
hotels because of occurrences of this nature, some of them quite
respectable and well-run (e.g. Boskone has been forced to move from Boston
to [argh] Springfield).  To the extent that convention organizers and
runners could prevent these episodes but don't, to that extent they are
doing their job badly and damaging every convention.  The Red Lion, as a
chain, is becoming progressively more and more disinclined to host SF and
related conventions as time goes on, no matter what group is running them.

Secondly, I don't just see it as kids + alcohol + immaturity; in my opinion
there are the factors of "boredom" and "feeling excluded" -- which leads to
a feedback loop, as most of the measures conrunners propose tend to exclude
kids even more.  (This year's Boskone, I believe, took the reprehensible
extreme of simply banning all persons under 18 unaccompanied by a parent or
guardian.)

While the problem seems to be kids running wild, I think we need a way of
welcoming the kids while encouraging them effectively not to run wild in
damaging ways.  After all, this year's obnoxious teenager may very well
turn out to be the head of Operations at the worldcon five years from now
- -- it HAS happened, but it won't if we keep chasing the kids away.

Alan Bostick
ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!abostick

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 21:10:54 GMT
From: usenet@tsfr.uucp (usenet)
Subject: New Orleans Information

jcmorris@mbunix (Morris) writes:
>Pronunciation is decidedly NOT that which would satisfy a Frenchman.
>Chartres Street is pronounced 'CHART-ers', for example.  I leave it to
>your imagination the street which some locals call MELL-po-MEEN.

   Or "tichyoopolis", for that matter. Funny names are half the fun of
living in NOLA - (being at -5" elevation is rather amusing, too.)

>Don't go to the places which feel compelled to hire barkers to tout their
>services.  With a few exceptions they are tourist traps.

   This can be summed up as "avoid Bourbon street like the plague."

>Take one of the riverboat tours.  Do it at dusk, and make sure you bring a
>camera with color film.

   Do it anytime.  The Natchez is a good boat to sail on if you're keen on
sailing in a "steamship".

>Ride the streetcar.  Unless someone has broken with tradition, they are
>still the "new" 1923 St. Louis Car Company cars (900-series car numbers)
>The "old" 1922 cars (800-series) were retired a few years ago.  As far as
>I know the only significant change made since they were new was the remote
>control on the rear door; until the 1970's (?) the motorman had the
>controls for the front door and the conductor operated the rear.

   The 900's are mainly Perley Thomas cars, unless I've totally forgotten
what's going on.  Don't forget the tourist trolley line (just opened)
running from the Quarter to the convention center - two 800's (renamed 451
& 452, I think) and two cars from Melbourne, Australia.  Those cars are a
treat to see (the line opened on the 13'th, so the cars are in great
shape.)

   One thing about the St. Charles line - it certainly makes you appreciate
modern streetcars and trolleybusses!  (During the day, it takes about 45
minutes for a tram to go the 6-mile route.)

David Parsons
orc@pell.citadel

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 10:00:00 GMT
From: U00254@hasara5.bitnet ("Jacqueline Cote")
Subject: WORLDCON 1990 Update

ConFiction  (WORLDCON 1990)  :   48th World SF Convention
The Hague, The Netherlands   :   23-27/8/90
Place                        :   Congress Centre, the Hague, The Netherlands

PROGRAM:

GUESTS OF HONOUR : Joe Haldeman, Wolfgang Jeschke & Harry Harrison
FAN GUEST OF HONOUR : Andrew Porter
TOASTMISTRESS : Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

POSTAL ADDRESS : WorldCon 1990
                 P.O. BOX 95370
                 2509 CJ  The Hague
                 The Netherlands

The email address for ConFiction - WorldCon 1990 is (till 1-10-88):

BITNET : U00254@HASARA5
UUCP   : mcvax!hasara5.bitnet!u00254
DECNET : SARA5::U00254
ARPA   : U00254@HASARA5.BITNET
       : U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@MCVAX.CWI.NL

After 1-10 : I can **always** be reached at WNNROUB@HUTRUU0.BITNET, but
this account is not regularly checked. Only use it in case of doubt after
1-10-88.

DISCLAIMER :

I am **NOT** a member of the organizing committee and am **NOT**
responsible for the program/organization/etc. of ConFiction. I only act as
an e-mail go-between. I **DO** however have "official" backing of the
organizing committee, and I regularly contact them. All requests will be
forwarded to the chairman of the committee (Kees van Toorn).  Clearly state
in the subject line of your message : WORLDCON. Optional : your own
subject. E.g. :
   Subject: WORLDCON
   Subject: WORLDCON, change of address
   Subject: WORLDCON, Membership verification

*  PLEASE NOTE :

   I CANNOT guarantee that your message will escape oblivion if you DO NOT
   include 'WORLDCON' in your subject line!
   PLEASE don't ask me to become your pen-pal. I LOVE writing long letters
   and such, but I already have SIX e-mail penpals and I do not have the
   time to write to more..... sorry.....
   All mail will be dumped to 3."5 disk   Receipt of your message will be
   acknowledged + copies will be sent ASAP to the WorldCon people.

This file is also posted to CSNEWS@MAINE.BITNET and maybe retrieved by
issuing a message to the server of CSNEWS@MAINE (BITNET) :

SENDME WORLDCON CSNOTICE FROM CSBB

or by subscribing to this CSNOTICE. PLEASE, don't ask me to assist you with
this server, as I don't have the time to help you (requests to bitbucket),
the server responds to 'HELP', 'INFO' or try 'DIR * * FROM PUBLIC'. Accepts
FILE and MESSAGE and (allegedly) MAIL. As for mail, I **THINK** you're
supposed to send mail to CSNEWS@MAIL, Subjectline: CSBB.Worldcon <whatever
you like to type>, and with contents :

/EXECUTE SENDME WORLDCON CSNOTICE FROM CSBB

ALL FILE type requests should be of type :

/EXECUTE <command>

Don't blame me if this doesn't work. You're now even supposed to be able to
subscribe etc. Questions to Andy Robinson (ANDY@MAINE.BITNET).

Addresses of Local Agents  & membership rates are : (upon request)
Available from U00254@HASARA5

LATEST NEWS (24-8-88) :

Soon available : ConFiction T-shirts

List of Scientific Conventions in The Netherlands in 1990

The Organizing Committee will try to fascilitate Custom Affairs in 1990.
(import of books, magazines and other affairs, costumes + "weapons", which
most likely will be on the 'black list').

I will move to adjacent node HASARA11 (from 1-10-88), I may be able to set
up user "CONFICTION @ SARA.NL" or "WORLDCON @ SARA.NL". More news later.

Updates to rec.arts.sf-lovers, SF-LOVERS and CSNEWS@MAINE (WORLDCON
CSNOTICE).

I will be gone from 5-9-88 till 19-8-88 (work, work, work....... :-)).

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 06:02:10 GMT
From: Edward_Lee_Whiteside@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

(IN regards to the discussion of unrulyness at cons)

I've seen con-goers on local BBSs leaving messages about upcoming cons with
the emphasis on partying.  It seems a lot of high-school age kids use cons
as excuse to get away from their parents for a weekend and party
continuosly.  Chances are you won't even see them at many of the con events
and functions.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 23:12:28 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

>Of course, the flaw in this theory is that the biggest cons of all, i.e,
>the Worldcons, don't seem to be having the same troubles as some of the
>big regionals. ... Perhaps Worldcons expend more effort on security.

Actually Worldcon is the exception that proves the theory. First, you are
right in that there is more security at a Worlcon but only a Worldcon has
the numbers of smofs to provide the needed security. Second, the
demographics of a Worldcon is still that of an old time SF con, i.e.
mainly adults with only a small proportion of teenagers. Also, the cost of
a Worldcon tend to discourage the trouble makers since it's a lot of money
to pay.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 21:11:20 GMT
From: ns!ddb@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
> Most con committees are at great risk of *personal* losses.  (That's what
> limited liability corporations are for.)  What happens the first time
> some committee gets sued for their backteeth?

   Can't speak in general, but Minicon a) carries liability insurance, and
b) is run by a corporation.  I think these are both ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY
precautions for large conventions.  I worry about the small ones, which
could not afford the insurance and probably aren't well-enough organized to
form a corporation and keep the paperwork up to date.

David Dyer-Bennet
...!{rutgers!dayton | amdahl!ems | uunet!rosevax}!umn-cs!ns!ddb
ddb@Lynx.MN.Org
...{amdahl,hpda}!bungia!viper!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 03:40:52 GMT
From: robert@weitek.com (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

Would somebody give me the headline of the article in the Mercury-News that
started all this?  I went through the August 17 morning edition, but didn't
see anything.

Thanks,
Karen Black

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 8 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 252

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Derivative Fantasy (8 msgs) &
                           TV Related Books (2 msgs) &
                           Power Armor (2 msgs) &
                           Franchised Characters &
                           The War Of The Worlds: The Resurrection &
                           Female Authors & Sentient Computers (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 13:08:07 GMT
From: cci632!dwp@cs.rochester.edu (Dana Paxson)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes:
>I have no trouble with pre-Tolkien fantasy. ... 

... and that brings up my recollection of a little book by Lin Carter,
titled FANTASTIC WORLDS, in which he catalogued a lot of the fantasy
written before, during and after Tolkien.  From that book I picked dozens
of books to read, some of which are still special to me.  A brief sample:

  THE WORM OUROBOROS, E. R. Eddison
  THE NIGHT LAND, William Hope Hodgson
  A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, David Lindsay
  THE WELL AT THE WORLD'S END, William Morris
  THE KING OF ELFLAND'S DAUGHTER, Lord Dunsany

Some of these I remember purely for the play and sound of the words, some
for their strange and nightmare vision, some for their stories.  I don't
know which of these are in print any more, or which you can find in
libraries, but dig in and have fun.

Dana

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 01:48:43 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

>I've found it almost impossible to read most modern fantasy.  So much of
>it seems so derivative of Tolkien that I just can't stomach it.  I have no
>trouble with pre-Tolkien fantasy.

Whenever anyone says that, I refer them to _Hart's Hope_ by Orson Scott
Card.  Most definitely NOT derivative of LOTR.

>On net.recommendation and that of others, I decided to give Brust TRIH a
>shot, and he dazzled me with the technical brilliance of his conceptions,
>but overall the book left me cold: his world didn't seem so much alive but
>as an utterly perfect clockwork imitation.  I've never seen an author do
>that before.

Halfway through _To Reign in Hell_ I put the book down because it was
becoming predictable.  Later, I finished it; it wasn't exactly as I'd
thought, but close.  In some ways, it reminded me of _Lord of Light_.
(_Lord of Light_ was better, though; not as predictable.)

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 22:53:54 GMT
From: jack!nusdhub!rwhite@elgar.cts.com (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu says:
> I've found it almost impossible to read most modern fantasy.  So much of
> it seems so derivative of Tolkien that I just can't stomach it.  I have
> no trouble with pre-Tolkien fantasy.  On net.recommendation and that of
> others, I decided to give Brust TRIH a shot, and he dazzled me with the
> technical brilliance of his conceptions, but overall the book left me
> cold: his world didn't seem so much alive but as an utterly perfect
> clockwork imitation.  I've never seen an author do that before.

Here are my votes for non-LOTR fantasy(ish) books.  A quick list
off the top of my head.

Riddlemaster of Hed 
Heir to Sea and Fire
Harpist in the Wind 

Moon of Three Rings  -- science fantasy.
The Jagoon Pard

Creatures of Light and Darkness
(Several books by Nancy Springer whose titles evade me at the moment.)
Beasts of Eden
The Practice Effect

The Celestial Steam Locomotive  -   very strange 

The bible (but I suppose that *does* pre-date TLOTR) (mostly kidding
folks!)

Just a quickey list...

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 18:28:33 GMT
From: jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

rwhite@nusdhub.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes:
>Riddlemaster of Hed 
>Heir to Sea and Fire
>Harpist in the Wind 

By Patricia McKillip.  Wonderful fantasy (just an opinion, don't flame,
please.)  Also written by her is one of my favorite fantasy books of all
time, "The Forgotten Beasts of Eld".  Beautiful imagery.

Jennifer Hawthorne 
..!mit-eddie!athena.mit.edu!jen

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 17:11:21 GMT
From: rdi@skye.uucp (Rick Innis)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

dwp@cci632.UUCP (Dana Paxson) writes:

>  A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, David Lindsay

Fantastic book. In more than one sense....

>  THE WELL AT THE WORLD'S END, William Morris

If anyone knows of any publishers who are printing this, please tell me - I
have a copy of an early '70's printing which contains about the first half
of the book - I'd love to read the rest sometime.

>  THE KING OF ELFLAND'S DAUGHTER, Lord Dunsany

Another amazing writer. Is it just my perseption, or are people forgetting
how to use the English language nowadays?

Rick

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 88 11:26:53 GMT
From: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

Here are some more that I can't seem to map onto LotR....

LeGuin's Earthsea books:
   A Wizard of Earthsea
   The Tombs of Atuan
   The Farthest Shore

Some, at least, of Brust's other work:
   Brokedown Palace
   Jhereg
   Yendi
   Teckla
   Easterner (uh, sorry, Taltos)

Saberhagen
   Empire of the East
   The First Book of Swords
   The Second Book of Swords
   The Third Book of Swords

The Codex Seraphinianus (:-)

old: mcgill-vision!mouse
new: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 07:58:12 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

Still more: Barbara Hambly and Glen Cook, both in the "historical nitty
gritty school" of fantasy.  Hambly's fiction seems to be more derivative of
her own work than anything else.  Glen Cook is really strange; what can I
say.  These two are among my favorite current authors, although each has
come up with some clinkers.  I wouldn't say that Edding's series owe all
that much to Tolkien.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 10:02:37 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Derivative fantasy

g-rh@cca (Richard Harter) writes:
> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) says:
>> I've found it almost impossible to read most modern fantasy.  So
>> much of it seems so derivative of Tolkien that I just can't stomach it.
>Still more: Barbara Hambly and Glen Cook, both in the "historical nitty
>gritty school" of fantasy.

Thanks everybody for the various suggestions.  I'm surprised that no one
has mentioned Michael Ende THE EVERENDING STORY and MOMO, both of which I
found to be spellbinding magical books--and Tom Holt EXPECTING SOMEONE
TALLER, a truly enjoyable late-breaking update of the Nibelung saga.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 88 20:09:59 GMT
From: felix!billw@decuac.dec.com (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: New genre-TV related books

The following books are listed as available or upcoming in the latest
catalog update from Star Tech (SF mail order, address below).  They didn't
include publisher information, so neither can I.  [I don't know why there
is such a spate of these books, I just pass on the facts.]

Colonial Warriors Technical Manual
   "Most comprehensive book on Galactica".  Definitions, flags
   seals, blueprints, and more (now in stock?)

The Official Airwolf Book
   Biographies, character profiles, the ship, episode guide (Sept)

The Green Hornet
   "The whole story from radio to comic book to television."
   Episode guide, character profiles, more (Oct)

The I Spy Book
   A comprehensive history of the series (Oct)

Wild Wild West - The Series
   Photos, profiles, interviews, gadgets, episode guide (Aug)

In case you missed my previous postings on similar books, I also know of
the following:

The Man from U.N.C.L.E. Book by Jon Heitland
   Photos, interviews, history, episode guide [Recommended - bw].
   (1987, St. Martin's Press, New York, NY, 271 pages, trade 
   paperback) [ISBN 0-312-00052-9]  

The Official Prisoner Companion
   Annotated episode guide, photos, script excerpts.
   Warner Books, July 1988, ISBN 0-446-38744-4

The catalog may be obtained from Star Tech (good stuff, Maynard) and their
address is:

    Star Tech
    P.O.Box 456
    Dunlap, TN 37327

Bill Weinberger      
FileNet Corporation
hplabs!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 18:35:42 GMT
From: hadron!klr@uunet.uu.net (Kurt L. Reisler)
Subject: Re: The Official Prisoner Companion

billw@felix.UUCP (Bill Weinberger) writes:
>This appears to be hot off the presses.
>
>    The Official Prisoner Companion
>    [sorry, didn't write down the authors]
>    Warner Books, July 1988, ISBN 0-446-38744-4
>
>This book appears to have it all, annotated episode guide, photos,
>script excerpts, etc.  I hope its as good as The Man from UNCLE Book.
>Now I have to save my pennies (and reduce my to-be-read stack) so I can
>buy it.  Argh.

THANK YOU!  Ran right out and bought a copy, then plowed right through it.
Interesting book, with a few interesting insights AND oversights.  I would
recommend it to anyone with more than a passing interest in The Prisoner,
or to anyone who has been confused by the show.

I was not aware that the "Living In Harmony" episode was considered to be
subversive during the Vietnam Era by CBS, and was not originally broadcast
in the US.

Kurt Reisler
Hadron, Inc.
9990 Lee Highway
Suite 481
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 359-6100
..{uunet|sundc|rlgvax|netxcom|decuac}!hadron!klr

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 88 15:07:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Starship Troopers: power

 I don't know if power armor was a concept that originated with Heinlein or
if there is an earlier source.  On the topic of other good books which use
the concept I can recommend the following:

   "The Forever War",  Joe Haldeman
   "There Will be War", ed. Jerry Pournelle
   "Soldier, Ask Not", "The Tactics of Mistake", Gordon R. Dickson
      (and the rest of the Dorsai books as well)

Peter Webb
{allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb
{mit-eddie|raybed2|spar|ulowell|sun}!applicon!webb
webb@applicon.com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 18:31:23 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: Heinlein's Starship Troopers: power

I can add to the list of power armor books, sort of.  There was an
anthology called _Body Armor 2000_; anyone remember the editor?

Vernon Lee
Rice University               
ARPA/CSNET:  scorpion@rice.edu
UUCP: {internet or backbone site}!rice!scorpion

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 00:16:10 GMT
From: microsoft!t-billm@uunet.uu.net (Bill McJohn)
Subject: Re: Franchised characters

dl1@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (D.Langford) writes:
> Apologies if it's been covered recently (this group generates so many
> postings that I may have missed it) but what's the feeling on other
> writers picking up on an original universe/ set of characters, after the
> original author sells out?

I basically don't like the practice.

If someone is a good writer, I would like to see her/him working up her/his
own material and finding a unique voice--a good writer, it seems, should
have the greatest success if given a free hand, rather than trying to
conform to someone else's characters and conceptions.  And I definitely
don't want bad writers messing with good characters!

Bill McJohn

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 15:58:27 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: THE WAR OF THE WORLDS: THE RESURRECTION

I was just in a bookstore this weekend and picked up a book which is a TV
tie-in to a pilot for a new series coming out this fall.  I picked it up
thinking that it would be fairly interesting.  Unfortunately, it has little
to do with the original H.G. Wells classic.  Instead, it is based on the
1953 George Pal movie version of The War Of The Worlds.  Here is a brief
summary of what goes on: It is 1988 and it has been 35 years since "the
invasion".  The government has all but eliminated it from the history books
and is hopong that soon the world will forget that it ever happened.  After
the Martians were killed by the Earth's bacteria, the military put the
bodies in nuclear waste containers and placed them in nuclear dumps.  The
war machines were stored in the infamous Hangar 18.  Well, it seems that
the Martians were not killed but went into a state of anabiosis due to the
infection.  Being placed in a nuclear dump exposed them to radiation which
killed the bacteria and caused the Martians to awake.  Now, they set out to
take over the world again.  Instead of being the sluggish beasts that Wells
described, they are now like the George Pal creatures and they are not
weighed down by gravity, they can take over human bodies by "oozing" into
them.  Also, they are not even from Mars, but from a planet in the
constellation Taurus.  The Martians try to get to Hangar 18 to capture some
war machines and try to take over the earth.  Of course they fail due to
the efforts of a few daring scientists.  Now, the search is on to find the
remaining aliens and any war machines that the government has hidden.  Thus
the basis for a tv series is established.
    I was reallly disappointed in the book.  It was a disgrace to H. G.
Wells and the original War of the Worlds.  Oh well, maybe it will be a good
series but I doubt it.  Has anyone out there read this book yet?  If so, I
would like to get a discussion going on it and the original War of the
Worlds in general.  Bye for now!  

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 12:35:43 GMT
From: gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Female Authors

youndts@GTEWD.ARPA writes:
>Katherine Kurtz almost goes without saying as most fantasy lovers worth
>their salt have read all of the Deryni Chronicles

Well, not this one.  I found that as time went on, Kurtz became more and
more wordy, and MUCH more boring.  I finished the Deryni Chronicles and the
first two of the Camber Chronicles, but had to struggle to get through
"Camber the Heretic", and haven't had the slightest interest in anything
after that.

>Without going into further detail, if you haven't read these authors, and
>you enjoy fantasy, do so.  They are some of the best, as those who have
>read them will be sure to agree.

Nope.  Not sure at all.  Hambly is O.K., but not great.  Kurtz is just
plain bad, these days.

On the other hand, there are other female fantasy authors who are doing
fine work.  Stephanie Smith ("Snow Eyes") is developing a quite unique
melieu.  Emma Bull's "War For the Oaks" is quite good, as is Ellen
Kushner's "Swordspoint" (although Kushner owes more to Sabatini than to
Tolkien).  And Kara Dalkey's "The Nightingale" is a magnificent piece of
work.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 22:39:26 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@marque.mu.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Steve Greenland) writes:
>I've read the "The Andromeda Strain" several times, but I just can't
>remember a sentient machine in that story.  Can anyone fill me in???

Perhaps he meant A FOR ANDROMEDA, by an author whose name I've forgotten
(but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Michael Crichton).

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!marque!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 10:53:30 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

The Andromeda Strain *is* stretching a point, but remember that that virus
was sent to Earth as a computer program (talk about your computer
viruses!).

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 03:04:06 GMT
From: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

Jack Chalker's _Soul Rider_ books involve sentient computers.  Human usage
of the interface to these computers is in fact central to the books, though
this is not obvious for the first few books.  The computers' sentience is
not essential at first, but it becomes important later.  Later books also
make it clear that this is really an example of Clarke's Law.

old: mcgill-vision!mouse
new: mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 08:11:57 GMT
From: woodsb@killer.dallas.tx.us (Brent L. Woods)
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

gknight@ut-emx.UUCP (Gary Knight) writes:
>  Cybernetic Samurai, ???

   _Cybernetic Samurai_ was written by Victor Milan.  I bought the book as
a result of meeting and talking to Mr. Milan at a convention.  He's a very
congenial person, but, boy, does he tell bad jokes...

   Incidentally, the book is pretty good.  A sort of mix of high- tech SF
and brain candy.  Also what sounds like a fairly accurate look inside the
Japanese business world.

Brent Woods
320 Brown St. #406
W. Lafayette, IN 47906
+1 (317) 743-8421
woodsb@killer.dallas.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 18:08:51 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@ucsd.edu (Jim )
Subject: Re: Sentient Computer Novels -- List of

>> I've read the "The Andromeda Strain" several times, but I just can't
>> remember a sentient machine in that story.  
>Perhaps he meant A FOR ANDROMEDA, by an author whose name I've forgotten

Fred Hoyle and John Elliot.  There is a sequel -- "Andromeda Breakthrough".

"A for Andromeda" was based on a BBC TV serial (screenplay by the same
authors).  

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 8 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 253

Today's Topics:

			  Films - Tron (8 msgs) &
                                  Batman Movie (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 88 21:41:33 GMT
From: percival!gary@hombre.masa.com (Gary Wells)
Subject: Re: TRON

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>peter@sugar (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>The Big Gimmick in the story, Cyberspace, is just a rehash of TRON.  It's
>>not even an extrapolation from SF... it's an extrapolation from SciFi.
>
>I take it by this terminology you thought TRON was a bad film.
>
>I personally liked it a lot.

As a hardware hacker, I think TRON was one of the best SF movies in a long
time.  If you've ever gotten to see, under magnification, the insides of an
IC, you can really identify with the "scenery".  There were also a lot of
"puns" on the techno-speak (ie: "juice", the little "bit" companion, etc)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 88 17:20:48 GMT
From: geigel@soleil.uucp (Joe Geigel)
Subject: Re: TRON

gary@percival.UUCP (Gary Wells) writes:
> As a hardware hacker, I think TRON was one of the best SF movies in a
> long time. If you've ever gotten to see, under magnification, the insides
> of an IC, you can really identify with the "scenery".  There were also a
> lot of "puns" on the techno-speak (ie: "juice", the little "bit"
> companion, etc)

It certainly was a good idea, but it was badly executed.  For instance, you
think that Disney could have gotten up some money to get some REAL actors.
The acting in TRON was horrible.  But you're right, the whole concept of
the movie was cute and I too appreciated the puns.  Also, the graphics were
fairly good.

...!rutgers!soleil!geigel

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 88 00:24:08 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: TRON

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu seems confused by my choice of words. He also
seems to be saying that TRON is either a good film or good SF...

> peter@sugar (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>Yeh, [TRON] was a bad film, and crummy science fiction.
> This puzzles me in light of:
>>... It was a really neat movie.

It was a bad film. It had characters for whom "two dimensional" would be an
accolade, and acting that was so wooden I'm surprised they didn't get
dry-rot. By all the criteria of serious film criticism, it was truly awful.

But it was also fun and entertaining if you could manage to turn off your
cerebral cortex and just look at the pretty pictures.

>>... But it's still crummy science fiction.
> Could you explain what you mean by "crummy science fiction"?

Well one aspect of good science fiction is that it requires just enough
suspension of disbelief to allow the gimmicks in, and no more. I don't
think there was much in the way of cyberpunk around when TRON was written,
but I'm pretty sure that True Names was out.

In both TRON and True Names the big gimmick is humans interacting with
programs (and other humans) in a computer-simulated reality. In True Names
this is presented in terms of a computer interface... and the programs that
Mr Slippery talks to (Alan, DON.MAC, etc...) are deliberately designed AI
type programs. In TRON Flynn is physically digitized and projected into a
vast computer environment. The programs he talks to are fully sentient, but
to the outside world they're just compound interest programs and the like.
The surrounding society (outside the computer) doesn't reflect what one
would expect in a world with this sort of computing power available.

Even non computer-literate people know better than this.

It's a fun movie, but as a science fiction story it's abysmal.

> I really don't understand your criteria.  Are you some kind of up and
> coming CRITIC?  Or worse, DECONSTRUCTIONIST?

Hell no, I'm just a programmer with not enough MIPS at his disposal. But I
am a science fiction fan... I hope you understand my criteria better now.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 88 06:48:50 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu 
Subject: Re: TRON

peter@sugar (Peter da Silva) writes:
>It was a bad film. It had characters for whom "two dimensional" would be
>an accolade, and acting that was so wooden I'm surprised they didn't get
>dry-rot. By all the criteria of serious film criticism, it was truly
>awful.

You're right, the acting and characters stunk.  That only accounts for two
of the criteria of serious film criticism.  The list is potentially
infinite in any *serious* criticism.

I've always maintained that Asimov's writing as writing *stinks*, but that
his novels and stories are fine books.  As *books*.  Nor do I view them as
fine for the genre, but as fine books period.

>But it was also fun and entertaining if you could manage to turn off your
>cerebral cortex and just look at the pretty pictures.

And even with your cerebral cortex on too.

>Well one aspect of good science fiction is that it requires just enough
>suspension of disbelief to allow the gimmicks in, and no more.

That's how I enjoyed the movie so much: I suspended my disbelief.  I don't
go around *asking* myself whether this is reasonable or not--I just do it.

>In TRON Flynn is physically digitized and projected into a vast computer
>environment. The programs he talks to are fully sentient, but to the
>outside world they're just compound interest programs and the like.  The
>surrounding society (outside the computer) doesn't reflect what one would
>expect in a world with this sort of com- puting power available.

You are right.  So what?  It was a fantastical nifty idea.  (I mean, don't
all you fans keep saying "it's the literature of *ideas*" or some such
rot?)

NO amount of computing power can make a >BIT< as semi-sentient as one was
in the movie.

>but as a science fiction story it's abysmal.

No: as *hard* science fiction it's abysmal.  It wasn't trying to be such.

Do you consider TIME AFTER TIME (H G Wells really did have a time machine)
to be abysmal science fiction?  Is 2001 going to become revealed as bad
science fiction within the next decade?

I generally get the idea that good science fiction is allowed *one* wild
gimmick, and then the rest follows from that.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 88 00:02:18 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: TRON

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>...It had characters for whom "two dimensional" would be an accolade, and
>acting that was so wooden I'm surprised they didn't get dry-rot. By all
>the criteria of serious film criticism, it was truly awful.

I really did have a hard time telling the different male leads apart.

>...In TRON Flynn is physically digitized and projected into a vast
>computer environment. The programs he talks to are fully sentient, but to
>the outside world they're just compound interest programs and the like.
>The surrounding society (outside the computer) doesn't reflect what one
>would expect in a world with this sort of computing power available.
>
>Even non computer-literate people know better than this.

I view it as a fantasy set in a different kind of world.  Obviously
compound-interest programs aren't sentient.  But how many programmers catch
themselves yelling at the compilers and operating systems that they work
with?  And the evil MASTER CONTROL PROGRAM trying to invade the real world,
the good but power-emasculated old "wizard" type (the old operating system
or something like that): I liked the world that the scriptwriter created,
even though I knew it didn't have much to do with what really goes on in
computers.

Vernon Lee
Rice University
ARPA/CSNET:  scorpion@rice.edu
UUCP: {internet or backbone site}!rice!scorpion

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 04:19:58 GMT
From: lew@ihlpa.att.com (Lew Mammel, Jr.)
Subject: Re: TRON

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
> I'm not saying that TRON didn't stand up to careful analysis. I'm saying
> that they didn't even begin to try to make any sense. The whole premise
> of the movie is ludicrous. This movie was truly crummy science fiction.
> It was also (as you're trying to avoid admitting above) a really bad
> film.
> 
> That's what I described it as. A bad film and crummy SF.
> 
> What are its good points?

In the first place, you'll never catch me saying, "Sure it was lousy, but I
liked it anyway." If I liked it, there must be reasons, right? So it must
be "good", or have good points, anyway.

In the above critique, Peter does nothing but assert that the movie was
"bad".  Well, first he says it "didn't even begin to try to make sense."
Here I disagree entirely. The movie carefully adhered to a well developed
premise.  So then Peter says second it was "ludicrous". Third it was
"crummy"". Fourth it was "really bad". And finally, in summation, it was
"bad" AND "crummy".

Devastating critique, Peter!

Actually, I agree with whoever it was that pointed out the similarity, or
even identity, of the gimmick in NEUROMANCER ( I just read it! ) and TRON.
I found the descriptions of cyberspace in NEUROMANCER to be very
reminiscent of TRON. This makes a good comparison because the stories are
otherwise so different. I think Gibson does do more with it than Disney,
although it takes him a little time to warm up to it, but I'll try to stick
to my point here, which was to defend TRON.

As I indicated, I thought the cyberspace in TRON was consistent and the
protaganist's odyssey through it was well motivated. I was drawn along so
that I felt the reality of his journey. I think motivation and consistency
are required to leave the impression that you were "enjoying a light show"
for over an hour. Otherwise you might as well watch news and NFL lead ins
for all that time.

By the way, if you want "bad", I'll give you STAR TREK II ( TWoK ). I cite
in particular the overplayed analogy of the Starships to eighteenth century
sailing vessels. I thought the battle of the starships in the nebula was
indeed "ludicrous" since the starships were making about 10 knots and
engaged on a field of battle seemingly hundreds of meters in scale. I
expected to hear the hull creaking, for crying out loud! And then there was
the limitation of the supposedly supergenius Khan's thinking to two
dimensions.

That's the sort of thing that brings my disbelief crashing back through my
skull.

Another thing I liked about TRON was its atheism ( where were the pickets
!? ) Some of the programs regarded their users as gods and our hero
disabused them of this notion, telling them that the users were in no
better postion than they were to make sense of existence. He pointedly ( to
me ) omitted to tell them about the REAL God above the users. So if TRON
wasn't punk, it was at least existential.

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 88 17:43:59 GMT
From: looking!brad@math.waterloo.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: TRON

TRON was a comedy for computer scientists written by computer scientists.
Unlike bad SF movies that have silly things in them because the writers had
no understanding of what they were writing about, it was clear to me that
when TRON was silly it was because the writers were having fun, even though
they knew what they were talking about.

TRON's problem was that there just weren't enough people to appreciate the
movie it was.  They got it funded because they thought it might grab the
teenage video-game crowd.  It didn't do tihs.

TRON probably also inspired some cyberpunk.  It's most likely that it's the
earliest dramatic concept of cyberspace, although it is predated by True
Names.  True Names was little known at the time, and in fact it was in the
context of TRON that I first heard of it.  (True names didn't seem to get
proper recoginition until after Gibson arrived and Vinge became more famous
with The Peace War.)

And while English teachers will find a Christ allegory in everything,
especially when it isn't there, TRON has it right out in front, and
presented in an unusual way.

But most of all, calling TRON bad SF is silly.  TRON was a computer fantasy
movie, and calling it bad SF is like calling "WILLOW" bad SF.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 23:30:27 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: TRON

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes about TRON:
> Now notice: there's absolutely nothing in the movie TRON *from the point
> of view of what TRON's premise is* that gets you to suspend disbelief.

The premise, of course, is completely unbelievable, but besides that:

> The movie built up a consistent world-view from inside the computers, and
> kept it up. It's only inconsistent with what we know to be scientific
> fact about AI and computers.

It's also completely inconsistent with the world, *in the movie* outside
the computer. Also, there is no reason for the jarring stupidities, such as
a compound interest program being intelligent. They didn't do anything to
advance the plot. They should have been more parsimonious in their fantasy.

[ time travel is impossible, and ]
> if a book or movie can't figure out what the hell it's trying to do with
> time travel, and I can sense this failure rather clearly...

Precisely. And TRON can't figure out what it's trying to do with computers.

[ about my criteria of science fiction ]
> I wondered what would happen if you applied
> them to TIME AFTER TIME and 2001.  No response--twice now.

OK, just to make you happy.

\Time After Time/... H.G.Wells versus Jack the Ripper in San Francisco.
There's nothing in the way the time machine worked that jarred with the
society... in fact the effects of the society on the time travellers, and
of the time travellers on the society, are an integral part of the story.

\2001/. Again, the society that launched the Discovery was completely in
sync with the premise of the film. The ending of the movie was rather odd,
and I'm not really comfortable with it. But then, I missed out on the '60s
by an accident of birth.

> I both KNOW that MCP really couldn't be sentient.

Actually, it's possible that MCP could be sentient... but it was really the
only one. Why? It exhibited sentience in the world outside the computer,
presumably because it had stolen far more resources than an other program.

> But hell, Disney sure made the movie enjoyable for *me*.

I didn't say it wasn't enjoyable. In fact that was about the first thing I
said about it... that it was a fun movie. What I'm saying is that it's
horrible science fiction... and a clear predecessor of much of today's
cyberpunk, which is also horrible science fiction.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 16:41:35 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Batman Movie (Re: New movie??)

AS0JHC@bingvma.BITNET ("John H. Cummings") writes:
>    I was just asked by a co-worker if I had heard anything about a new
>movie. He heard that it would be titled something like "The Black Knight
>Returns", and that it would be about an older, more up-to-date Batman,
>still fighting crime, I would assume. He also heard talk that Michael
>Keaton would star in it??!!  Anyone else heard any of these rumors? I
>believe there was a large, paperback comic book edition under the same
>(roughly) title. Maybe that is how the whole thing got started?  Thanks...

"The Dark Knight Returns" was a four-issue limited series about Batman
being forced to make a comeback after ten years away from crimefighting.

It was written and drawn by Frank Miller, and is considered by many
(including me) to be an absolute masterpiece of graphic storytelling.

It has been collected into a single-volume trade paperback which is
available from most bookstores, and is usually kept in the SF section.

There has been a lot of discussion of the movie in rec.arts.comics, and you
can go look there if you're interested. It will star Michael Keaton as the
Batman, and Jack Nicholson as the Joker. The report, from those who claim
to know, is that it will take a lot of its style and atmosphere from "The
Dark Knight Returns," but will not use the same plot.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 88 14:59:00 GMT
From: bradley!frodo@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: New movie??

Frank Miller wrote and various people illustrated a comic originally in
four parts called "Batman: the Dark Knight Returns" wherein he is portrayed
as a vigilante-style character who comes out of retirement because he's
tired of fighting the "beast within".  It was later released as a "Graphic
Novel" (all four parts bound in one cover) because of its great popularity.
(First editions of number one were going at one point for around $40 if not
more).

There was also a hilarious and very well executed spoof called "Gnatrat:
the Dark Gnat Returns" that I would recommend to anyone who has read the
Batman set.

I've heard nothing about any movie being made from the series, but I
wouldn't be surprised.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 8 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 254

Today's Topics:

		Books - Asimov (5 msgs) & Barrett & Bear &
                        Blaylock & Card (2 msgs) & Clement &
                        Crichton & Dickson & Drake

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 88 17:48:56 GMT
From: domo@sphinx.co.uk (Dominic Dunlop)
Subject: Re: _Prelude_to_Foundation by Isaac Asimov (mild spoiler)

duane@anasaz.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes:
>Time: relatively far future
> ...
>Critique: This book has a number of serious flaws. First, there's too much
>dialogue; my impression is that about 80% of the book is dialogue. As a
>result, the surroundings don't have much depth, the atmosphere is shallow,
>and the pace isn't very fast.

Yes, that sounds like the Asimov I can't read any more.  Shame.  My
bookshelves are full of it...

>Another problem, oddly enough, has to do with the level of technology. I
>would expect the computer systems on Trantor to be much more sophisticated
>than they are represented.

Asimov's problem here is that he dreamed up the Empire milieu years ago
(How many years?  Twenty-some.) when computers were not anything like as
ubiquitous in our society as now they are.  Consequently, computers were
almost absent in the Foundation series.  If Asimov carries this through in
_Prelude_, he's just being consistent.

(It's harder to predict what's twenty years in the future -- computers with
everything -- than two thousand -- faster than light drives.  And less
safe, because twenty years on, you're still around to hear people saying
``It didn't happen that way, did it?''  Wonder what we're predicting today
that'll look as laugable in 2030 as Flash Gordon looks to us now...)  (Or,
to carp about another master of hard science fiction written without a
great deal of style, what chance of Clarke's 2001 coming true thirteen
years from now?)  (And, on the subject of (a different sort of) style, one
of the things that makes Flash Gordon funny is the style of the objects --
rockets, television screens and so on -- which is so clearly the style of
the day mapped onto the future.  When I have a foray into _Foundation_, the
vision of Trantor that I see is the fifies _Astounding_ cover-art picture
of the city of the future.  I think it's fair to say that, while the hard
science fiction of the eighties still pours a lot of plastic and metal into
its future cities, it adds a whole lot more plant life than was visible in
the future of the past.  How will the writers of thirty years hence build
their future habitats?)

>The story is episodic, though a common theme runs through all.

Again, this sounds very like the Foundation trilogy.  While a consciously
unified style is not something I'd expect to be uppermost in Asimov's mind,
maybe that's what he's trying for.  Alternatively, maybe he tends to write
like that anyway.

Dominic Dunlop
domo@sphinx.co.uk  
domo@riddle.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 11:25:27 GMT
From: brwk@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Bevis King)
Subject: The three laws of robotics... and Murder

In Issac Asimov's Robots And Empire, he shows a robot governed by the three
laws, which is none-the-less capable of attacking and killing humans.  In
this case, the robot is the Overseer of the estate on Solaria that once was
Madam Gladia's, and has obviously been instructed very strongly to destroy
intruders.

In the story, it attacks and attempts to kill both Daneel (humaniform
robot) and D.G. Baley (Settler, but definitely human) while accepting Madam
Gladia as human.  The robot in question is governed by the three laws, BUT
its understanding of what constitues human has been altered drastically to
enable it to protect the estate... and destroy human (non-Solarian)
intruders...

Can anyone suggest other books in which the three laws of robotics are
bypassed by external means (rather than by modification of those laws) such
as that outlined above?  I am aware of the zeroth law, mentioned in
Foundation and Earth amongst others... but the reasoning required to use
this is surely beyond most "normal" posititronic brained robots?

Bevis King
Dept of Computing
Imperial College
180 Queens Gate
London, SW7 2BZ, UK
+44 1 589 5111 x 5085
brwk@doc.ic.ac.uk
...!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!brwk

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 17:41:20 GMT
From: ut6y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: The three laws of robotics... and Murder

Another poster asked what Asimov stories, other than _Robots and Empire_
(which he mentioned as a test case) altered the 3 laws in order to enable a
robot to harm/kill a human.

I don't know titles, but I know of one story where a Robot was built with a
MODIFIED FIRST LAW, which merely stated, "A robot may not harm a human",
rather than, "A robot may not harm a human, nor thru inaction allow a human
to come to harm".  It was therefore possible for a robot to be responsible
for a human's death simply by standing still.  I also think that the
concept of altering the definition of "human" had been used once before
_R&E_.

Michael Scott Shappe
208 Dryden Road Apartment 304
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/277-6461
BITNET: UT6Y@CRNLVAX5
InterNet: UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
UUCP:...!rochester!cornell!vax5!ut6y

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 19:22:00 GMT
From: null@freja.dk (Niels Ull Jacobsen)
Subject: Re: The three laws of robotics... and Murder

brwk@doc.ic.ac.uk (Bevis King) writes:
>In Issac Asimov's Robots And Empire, he shows a robot governed by the
>three laws, which is none-the-less capable of attacking and killing
>humans.  In this case, the robot is the Overseer of the estate on Solaria
>that once was Madam Gladia's, and has obviously been instructed very
>strongly to destroy intruders.

[ Details omitted ]

>Can anyone suggest other books in which the three laws of robotics are
>bypassed by external means (rather than by modification of those laws)
>such as that outlined above?  I am aware of the zeroth law, mentioned in
>Foundation and Earth amongst others... but the reasoning required to use
>this is surely beyond most "normal" posititronic brained robots?

Asimov has another novel (sorry, can't remember the title, but I'm sure you
all will help me :-) ), in which a man is poisoned by a robot. The
instructions are these : "There will stand a glass of milk on the table.
This flask contains poison. I wish to investigate, how poison and milk
mixes. You will go and pour the poison in the milk. Later, another robot
will empty the glass and fill it up with fresh milk." Or something like
that.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Niels Ull Jacobsen
Dept. of Computer Science
Institute of Datalogy
U. of Copenhagen

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 88 21:57:38 GMT
From: akhale@pollux.usc.edu (Abhijit Superman Khale)
Subject: Re: The three laws of robotics... and Murder

ut6y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu (Uncle Mikey (Michael Scott Shappe)) writes:
>Another poster asked what Asimov stories, other than _Robots and Empire_
>(which he mentioned as a test case) altered the 3 laws in order to enable
>a robot to harm/kill a human.
>
>I don't know titles, but I know of one story where a Robot was built with
>a MODIFIED FIRST LAW, which merely stated, "A robot may not harm a human",
>rather than, "A robot may not harm a human, nor thru inaction allow a
>human to come to harm".  It was therefore possible for a robot to be
>responsible for a human's death simply by standing still.

The story was "Little Lost Robot" from I,Robot. Asimov also gave a way in
which such a robot could kill/harm a human.  If the robot held a weight
over a man's head and then released it would not be breaking 1st law, if it
knew it could grab the weight before it flattened the man. But a robot with
the modified law would be under no compulsion to stop the weight and could
thus commit murder. I always thought the argument was slightly phony
though.  In the same story the robot attacks Susan Calvin or tries to do
so.  Asimov doesn't really explain that except with a statement that the
robot wasn't really attacking her, only trying to do so.

>I also think that the concept of altering the definition of "human" had
>been used once before _R&E_.

Yup . Asimov wrote a robot story "That though art mindful of him -" in
which the robot is programmed to "judge" humans before trying to apply the
laws in case of say conflicting commands.  Of course, in doing so the
designers inadvertently blur the distinctions between humans and robots,
so...

  Asimov's "Naked Sun" introduces another possiblity : a robot unknowingly
harming somebody. If you tell a robot to perform an action which could harm
a human and the robot doesn't know that the action can harm anybody , it
would go ahead and thus break the 1st law unknowingly.
  And of course there's the 0th law case .(Although I doubt that Daneel
would actually kill someone physically , no matter what the alternative).

Abhijit Khale
akhale@pollux.usc.edu
akhale@cse.usc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 00:34:32 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Through Darkest America

GABRETT@G.BBN.COM writes:
> A new, and as far as I know, first novel by Neal Barrett Jr., out in
> paperback under the Isaac Asimov presents label.

Barrett has previously published at least ten novels:
   Gates of Time (Ace Double) (1970)
   Kelwin (1970)
   Leaves of Time (1971)
   Highwood (Ace Double) (1972)
   Stress Pattern (1974)
   Aldair in Albion (1976)
   Aldair, Master of Ships (1977)
   Aldair, Across the Misty Sea (1980)
   Aldair: Legion of Beasts (1982)
   Karma Corps (1984)
His short fiction dates back to at least 1960.

[Jayembee, where are you?]

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 04:16:10 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: _Blood Music_ by Greg Bear

_Blood Music_ by Greg Bear

I picked up this book by Greg Bear because I have found his writing
entertaining in the past.  The cover had the interesting statement on it
``A _ChildHood's End_ for the 1980's", and I find myself agreeing with that
statement.  My only regret is that I don't know more about biochemistry so
I could follow the technical part of this SciFi story.  Should anyone out
there be knowledgable of genetics and biochemistry, and should you read
this book, please let me know if the technical part of this book is
reasonable.  It seemed consistant in some places, so I assumed that Mr.
Bear did some research...

Anyway, for those who liked Arthur C. Clarke's _Childhood's End_, as well
as Greg Bear's _Eon_, this book should be an entertaining read.

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 18:22:53 GMT
From: leue@galen.steinmetz
Subject: The Road to Balumnia

I noticed a new title from James Blaylock in a recent issue of Forthcoming
Books: The Road to Balumnia. (sp?)  This is obviously the third volume in
the "Elfin Ship" series.  Alas, an inquiry with the publisher informed me
that the book hadn't been published yet, and they wouldn't provide a target
date.  Does anyone know anything else about this book?

Bill Leue
leue@ge-crd.arpa
uunet!steinmetz!nmr!leue 

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 88 13:44:31 GMT
From: dml@rabbit1.uucp (David Langdon)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

ecarroll@cs.tcd.ie (Eddy Carroll) says:
> Does anyone have a complete list of the works of Orson Scott Card? I've
> only read four of them (Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Wyrms and
> Hart's Hope), all of which I very much enjoyed. Could anyone tell me what
> the rest of them are like?

Other books by OSC include:

   Songmaster
   Seventh Son
   The Red Prophet

I've read the first 2 and both were very good. The third is the sequel to
Seventh Son and from what I understand there is supposed to be a third in
the series. Also, I understand that there will someday be a sequel to
Speaker for the Dead.

David Langdon
Rabbit Software Corp.
7 Great Valley Parkway East
Malvern PA 19355
(215) 647-0440
...!ihnp4!{cbmvax,cuuxb}!hutch!dml
...!psuvax1!burdvax!hutch!dml

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 19:07:36 GMT
From: Devin_E_Ben-Hur@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

Books by OSC:

Tales of Alvin Maker:
  Seventh Son (v1)
  Red Prophet (v2)

Ender's Game
Speaker for the Dead

Hot Sleep
Capitol
The Worthing Chronicles

Songmaster

A Planet Called Treason

Hart's Hope

A Woman of Destiny

Wyrms

Unaccompanied Sonata

Cardography

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 02:04:13 GMT
From: wales@valeria.cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Question on A QUESTION OF GUILT by Hal Clement (*SPOILER*)

[NOTE: This article contains material which will almost certainly spoil
your enjoyment of Hal Clement's short story "A Question of Guilt".  Skip
now if you don't want the story given away.]

I have been re-reading the collection _The Best of Hal Clement_, and just
as before, I am somewhat confused by the ending of his story "A Question of
Guilt".  To refresh people's memories, this is a story about a highly
inquisitive Roman gentleman whose four sons have all been hemophiliacs --
and his valiant (but, sadly, vain) efforts to discover a scientific cure
for the affliction.

Toward the end of the story -- after the death of his last remaining son,
and a prolonged search for his vanished wife -- the man and his wife's
personal servant discover evidence that his wife (who had always blamed
herself for her sons' fatal condition) had committed suicide by jumping
into a deep pit.

The very end of the story confuses me some, because it almost seems to
imply that Elitha (the dead woman's servant) had been concealing some-
thing about her mistress's death.  However, even as I have read and re-read
the last few pages, I just can't quite figure it out.

Can anyone who has read "A Question of Guilt", and who feels he/she
understands the ending, come to my aid?

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024-1596
+1 (213) 825-5683
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
...!(uunet,ucbvax,rutgers)!cs.ucla.edu!wales

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 88 05:23:20 GMT
From: jsp@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: 'Sphere' by Michael Crichton

Wow, some people are actually talking about a _book_ in this group! :-)

I also had high hopes going into _Sphere_; the inside dust jacket of the
hardcover made it sound very intriguing (although I waited for the
paperback to buy it).  It took a while to get started, and then it just
went <plop>.  Did anyone else find the ending _totally_ unsatisfying?  I
mean, it's Bobby-in-the-shower all over again.  I felt ripped-off.  Keep
your good memories of _The Andromeda Strain_ and don't bother with this
one.

By an amazing coincidence, there is a discussion just starting elsewhere
about what is science fiction and whether it's even worthwhile to label
things.  This book is a perfect example of why being overly concerned with
labels is somewhat silly.  There can be no doubt that this book, judged
solely by its contents, is science fiction.  But because the author is not
generally considered a science fiction author, the book is found in the
"regular" fiction section.  What difference does it make what you call it?
Isn't the only thing that matters whether or not you enjoy it or consider
it a worthwhile read?

James

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 15:23:54 GMT
From: utah-cs!esunix!krogers@cs.utexas.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Any Gordon Dickson fans?

   Are there any Gordon R. Dickson fans in netland who know when his next
book in the Childe Cycle is supposed to appear?  It's been 4+ years since
_The_Final_Encyclopedia_ came out and all I've seen since then are
collections of short stories (which were written a long time ago) and the
smallish odd novel or two.

Keith Rogers
Evans & Sutherland 

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 04:32:33 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: _The Fleet_ ed by Drake & Fawcett

_The Fleet_ Edited by David Drake and Bill Fawcett

Apparently the success of the _Thieves' World_ fantasy series has lead
several authors to examine the concept of a shared universe.  Perhaps such
a series existed before _Thieves' World_ so feel free to correct me...

Anyway, _The Fleet_ appears to be a shared universe based on Mankind's
struggle with the Khalia.  Authors for this series include Janet Morris, E.
Gary Gygax, Poul Anderson, Anne McCaffrey, and David Drake, as well as
others.

While this book can be a fun read, there appears to be some inconsistency
in the technologies of the separate stories.  For instance, in the story
"Tradition", we have ships entering and leaving FTL drive under the cover
of a moon (well within a planetary system), but in a later story, "Duty
Calls", the author has the ships performing a breaking maneuver through
whole planetary systems in order to shed their speed.  I was willing to
accept the different levels of technology on separate planets, but I had a
little trouble with there being various types of drives at various levels
of technology.  Yes, I know that can be explained by the difference in the
planets' tech levels, but I would think that the most advance type of
engine drives would be purposely distributed through the Fleet.

The editors did try to add consistency to the stories, but there was always
that feeling that the stories were not all taking place in the same
Universe.  You also don't get the character interaction in _The Fleet_ as
you did in _Thieves' World_ or _Wild Cards_.

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 8 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 255

Today's Topics:

		Books - Eddings (3 msgs) & John Harrison &
                        Hogan & Lumley

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 14:33:37 GMT
From: jpbion%minnesota@sun.com (Joel Bion)
Subject: Malloreon Book 3: Demon Lord of Karanda (SPOILER)

I just finished Eddings' "Demon Lord Of Karanda." For some reason, I love
reading Eddings' books, even though they are rather repetitious, and I read
this one in one sitting, but I cannot say that I really enjoyed this one
all that much.

Although I point out many things I did not like here, I would still suggest
this book to Eddings' fans, as I am hoping that it will all lead to a great
fifth book. ALSO, if you were to read all five books at once, I have a
feeling that DLoK would be quite interesting, along the lines of "Queen of
Sorcery" or "Castle of Wizardry" in the Belgariad. These views apply only
to readers of a series-in-progress, where feelings of "give us a little
something to make us want to WAIT (a long time!) for more" apply.

As it has been a few months, let's summarize what we were waiting for after
"King of the Murgos":

   1) WHAT is Eriond?
   2) WHO are the other missing characters who will be gained along the
      way?
   3) WHO will be the one that dies in the end?

Some things we had figured out:
   1) Velvet and Silk will wind up with each other.
   2) Garion and 'Zakath will meet.

None of the three unanswered ones were dealt with in book three, and we
learned of the two things we knew were going to happen. Indeed, Eriond had
only one big scene (a suggestion to the Orb before a meeting with a demon),
and he had about three areas of dialogue (1) Gee, Garion, aren't horses
fun?  (2) Talking to the Orb and (3) Don't worry, all this evil will end
soon.  After the major role Eriond played in KotM, he was awfully quiet
here. Eriond is one of the more intriguing characters. We watched Garion
develop in the Belgariad; it would be interesting to see Eriond grow as
well.

Can't Durnik do anything else but say good things to make Polgara put his
arms around him and say "Oh Durnik, I love you, because you are so strong
in your practicality and morality"?

One scene in particular disturbed me. It is when they are about to confront
the demon, after Eriond suggests using the Orb:

   Belgarath looked at Polgara.
   "I think he's right father," she said. "A demon WOULD flee from the
    Orb - even if it were fettered by its master. An unfettered demon
    would flee even faster."
   "Can you think of anything else?" he asked her.
   "A God," she shrugged. "All demons - no matter how powerful - flee
    from the Gods. Do you happen to know any Gods?"
   "A few," he replied, "but they're busy right now."

I know this is picky, but this conversation just did not make any sense.
The readers of this novel certainly know that both Polgara and Belgarath
know ALL the gods, and can pretty much talk to them when they like. When I
read this passage I had to stop and reread it to make sure it was Polgara
talking, and not Velvet (even Ce'Nedra has met most of the Gods, so it
couldn't have been her talking!) A discussion along the lines of:

   "I wonder if Aldur would help me here?" queried Polgara.
   "Well, no, because the previous time was a special case, and
    he cannot interfere here because...." replied Begarath.

would have been MUCH more interesting.

But the most disappointing thing of all was Feldegast. Here was an
interesting new character, maybe even one of the "missing companions" to be
picked up later. He turns out to be Beldin! I *like* the Beldin character;
I *liked* the Feldegast character. Why turn them into the same person? I
felt cheated out of reading a potentially interesting character
development.

It's well understood that the big questions will be answered in the fifth
and final book, and this is but the third. Even so, the third book could
have SOME excitement with some sort of a minor resolution.  The Belgariad
was interesting in that it was really two series combined into one: FIRST
they had to get the Orb; then they had to go and kill Torak. There are also
two quests in the Malloreon: retrieve Geran, and then have that final
Light/Dark meeting. But they both will happen AT THE SAME TIME. This will
probably make the fifth book (Seeress of Kell) quite interesting, but it
makes these middle books rather boring, as they just continue the quest.

There was at least one interesting point for consideration: The view of the
caputered Grolim priest who said

   "There will BE no new God of Angarak," Arshag disagreed. "Once Nahaz
    puts his hand on Cthrag Sardius - the Sardion - BOTH prophecies will
    cease to exist. The Child of Light and the Child of Dark will vanish
    forever. The Elder Gods will be banished, and Hahaz will be Lord of
    the Universe and Master of the destinies of all mankind."

Will it be Nahaz who banishes the Gods, or are the Gods some side effect of
the prophecy? Is Eriond the creation of Aldur, under the care of Polgara
and Good Ol' Durnik, with the hope that, when the old Gods cease to exist,
Eriond will be the one to rule the universe, and he will do so with a
kindly hand?

Now my interest is high again. Any bets for things learned in Sorceress of
Darshiva?

Joel P. Bion
2525 Garcia Blvd.
Building #12
Mail Stop 12-33
Mtn. View, CA 94043
415-691-4804
...sun!jpbion jpbion@sun.com

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 18:27:09 GMT
From: inuxd!keen@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (D Keen)
Subject: Re: Malloreon Book 3: Demon Lord of Karanda (SPOILER)

> I just finished Eddings' "Demon Lord Of Karanda." For some reason, I love
> reading Eddings' books, even though they are rather repetitious, and I
> read this one in one sitting, but I cannot say that I really enjoyed this
> one all that much.
[Text deleted] 
> As it has been a few months, let's summarize what we were waiting for
> after "King of the Murgos":
> 
>   1) WHAT is Eriond?
>
> None of the three unanswered ones were dealt with in book three, and we
> learned of the two things we knew were going to happen. Indeed, Eriond
> had only one big scene (a suggestion to the Orb before a meeting with a
> demon), and he had about three areas of dialogue (1) Gee, Garion, aren't
> horses fun?  (2) Talking to the Orb and (3) Don't worry, all this evil
> will end soon.  After the major role Eriond played in KotM, he was
> awfully quiet here. Eriond is one of the more intriguing characters. We
> watched Garion develop in the Belgariad; it would be interesting to see
> Eriond grow as well.

Perhaps I am reading too much into the scene, but if you will recall the
meeting between Nahaz and Garion et.al. I believe that further hints
concerning the nature of Eriond are provided.

Garion (with Orb revealed), Belgarath, Polgara etc are all in the process
of confronting Nahaz who has pulled out a green sceptre or rod.  Eriond is
described as being off to the side; I am inferring not yet under the
attention of Nahaz.  Nahaz suddenly notices something that he(it?) had not
yet observed and beats a hasty retreat.  I think that it is entirely
possible that Eriond was the something that was observed and that, indeed,
he is or at least has the attributes of a being that even a demon lord
would flee.  Currently, the class of beings with this reputation consists
of the gods.

Don Keen

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 88 09:35:05 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Malloreon Book 3: Demon Lord of Karanda (SPOILER)

This is really a continuation of Joe Bion's discussion of the third book in
the Malloreon.

The odd thing about this book is that one is left with the feeling that it
is a space filler with nothing resolved and yet, when you review it, a lot
is established and a lot happens.  Among them:

We are shown Mallorea, the countries and races in it, and are given a lot
of its history.  The map of the world has been filled in.  Nahaz is
introduced; one rather gathers that he will succeed Zandramas as the child
of dark.  The role of demons has been established, although much remain to
be explained.  Harakan is eliminated.  Urvon is brought on stage.  Zakath
is given a major role.  There is reasonable grounds for expecting that
Poledra is being added to the company as the woman who watches.

Here are some of things that don't happen.  We don't get a new major
character -- we see much of Zakath but his character isn't really expanded.
In the first series we got at least one major character in every book.  The
same holds true in the first two books of the second series.

We don't have any satisfactory resolutions.  In the Belgariad we have
confrontations between protagonists and villains which are real battles --
Garion vs Asharak, Belgarath vs Ctuchik, Belgarion vs Torek.  Harakan is a
major villain; he is simply killed as an incident in a larger event.

A major difference between the Belgariad and the Malloreon is that in the
Belgariad the principals knew what was going on -- they were following a
well known prophecy.  Garion (and the reader) was somewhat in the dark, but
Belgarath and Polgara knew the script.  In the Malloreon nobody knows
what's going on (except Cyradis.)  It's not clear that we or the company
know much more than we knew before.

Who are the remaining members of the company?  Does it matter very much?
What is the nature of the final confrontation?  [I rather suspect we won't
know until the end, but we haven't gotten any more hints in this book.]
Who is the Malloreon?  One gathers that it is Eriond (although Geran is an
outside possibility.)  In the Belgariad the principle character was
Belgarion which makes sense.  In the Malloreon it is still Belgarion.
Eriond plays an increasingly smaller role in each book.  It occurs to me
that Eriond may not be a God but something else.  It is natural to assume
that he is a God; he called Ul father, the Angaraks are short a God, and he
has unusual powers.  But he doesn't have the enormous "will" that the Gods
have, and he lives as a human being.

An alternative title to this book might be "Going to Ashaba, and what
happened on the way."

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 14:37:07 GMT
From: jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Subject: Re: The Centauri Device

gordan@maccs.UUCP () wrote:  
> ... a novel without the "cyber" part, but with "street sensibility",
> decay, oppression, and technological devolution in spades: _The Centauri
> Device_, by M. John Harrison.  My paperback copy says "Doubleday edition
> published November 1974, Bantam edition August 1980", so perhaps that
> explains why computers and hardware don't play much of a role.

I second this recommendation. One other merit it has is tightness of plot
and economy with words; it was written before authors started using PC's
and there is nothing like Gibson's WP-induced logorrhea.

> ... there is a band of anarchist artiste/pirates ...

This stuck in my throat. Harrison's idea of anarchism is bit more accurate
than Robert Anton Wilson's in Illuminatus (at least he knows it has
something to do with fighting back against poverty and oppression) but not
by much. The Baudelairean dandy stuff is just silly and the idea of
anarchists destroying the world is one even Ravachol would have found
contemptible.

> The same author (M. John Harrison) has written a number of other books
> that I know of, but in more of a fantasy vein...  on the whole not nearly
> as compelling as _The Centauri Device_.

He wrote a story for New Worlds in the early 70s called "Running Down" that
is like The Centauri Device in depicting a future of grubby, impoverished,
class-ridden chaos with a thin veneer of repressive technology on the top.
Remarkably like Britain after nine years of Thatcherism, in fact.

Another book in the "cyberpunk without computers" vein is Dick Morland's
"Albion! Albion!" - this was first published in the 70s and reprinted by
Faber & Faber (in the UK) a few years ago (I bought mine from a remainder
shop, so I assume you'll have to hunt for it). It depicts a Britain where
the state has disintegrated and regional power has drifted into the hands
of organized gangs of soccer hooligans; the political machinations between
the gangs are very well done.

Jack Campin
Computing Science Dept.
Glasgow Univ.
17 Lilybank Gardens
Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND
ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.uucp
JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 88 17:06:46 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: MINDS, MACHINES & EVOLUTION by James P. Hogan

	       MINDS, MACHINES & EVOLUTION by James P. Hogan
			Bantam, 1988, 0-553-27288-8
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is James P. Hogan's first collection of his shorter works, though
he has had ten novels published.  (Chalker just had his first collection
published and he has probably twice that many novels published, so this
must be the year for collections.)  Of the twenty-five items, 14 are
fiction and 11 are non-fiction, the latter being in general more
interesting.

     Without reviewing each piece individually, let me just touch on a few.
The lead story, "Silver Shoes for a Princess" is okay, but nothing
spectacular and perhaps a disappointing lead-in for the book (in a
collection, one usually expects the first piece to be the best).  "The
Pacifist" has an interesting twist, but isn't rewarding enough to warrant
its length.  I also seem to recall similar twists in other stories, so it's
not a brand-new idea either.  "Till Death Do Us Part" is a wonderful story,
though somewhat predictable in a Collieresque sort of way.  (To those who
have read John Collier's short stories, this will mean something.  To those
who haven't, why are you sitting here reading this--go read Collier!)
"Neander-Tale" is a "let's write a story for the sole purpose of making
some current political/religious/environmental/whatever statement" sort of
story.  It is a companion piece to the non-fiction work that follows it,
"Know Nukes."  Just as Spider Robinson's "In the Olden Days" was used in
L-5 Society (now National Space Society) literature to make a point about
space, "Neander-Tale" will probably be seen in the literature of groups
advocating a particular stand on nuclear power.  (I won't tell you which
stand--read it for yourself.)

     "Making Light" is possibly the best story in the book--a vision of the
Creation as it might have been if Heaven had the same governmental
bureaucracy that we have here.  Its companion piece, "The Revealed Word of
God," is an essay on what constitutes a scientific theory.  While it is
well-written and clear, the content is nothing new over what other
essayists have written.  Of the remainder of the items, there is nothing
particularly notable.  The autobiographical pieces do help provide
background and insight into Hogan's fiction.  On the whole, MINDS AND
MACHINES is an average collection with a couple of above average pieces.

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
UUCP: att!mtgzy!ecl
      ecl@mtgzy.att.com
ARPA: ecl%mtgzy@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 16:34:02 GMT
From: Richard_Allen_Bretschneider@cup.portal.com
Subject: Brian Lumley's NECROSCOPE

I'm about halfway through the TOR books publication of Brian Lumley's
NECROSCOPE and already feeling that old familiar pang of anguish.  This is
book one of a Trilogy, and GOD knows when the next book will be out!

If you haven't seen/read the cover, NECROSCOPE deals with a pair of
talented individuals, one English (the good guy) the other Soviet (the bad
guy) each of which can speak with the dead in his own way.  Written with
humor, insight, and nicely developed characters, it's not at all what I
would classify as the standard Horror tale.  Of course, that's why I like
Lumley, his horror is usually mixed with hope, things are usually more
heroic than tragic, but with the classical horror elements of vampirism,
madness, Cthulhu, etc.

My biggest fear is that the next few books will be YEARS in coming.  I
already owned (but hadn't read, what good is a library of books you've
already read!) the British edition, published in 1986 by Grafton books.
TOR is the first mainstream US publsher of late to do any of Lumley's
books, the rest of my collection is imports, Arkam House, and a real small
press house called W. Paul Ganley.

My questions:

1) Does anyone know if TOR is going to start publishing Lumley's books
   in the US?

2) Are the sequels to NECROSCOPE available now in England?

3) Anyone else out there reading NECROSCOPE?  Opinions?

Ric Bretschneider

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 9 Sep 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 256

Today's Topics:

			Books - Herbert (3 msgs) &
                                Moorcock (9 msgs) &
                                Powers (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 04:44:19 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

Bill Turner writes:
> a) The first book (NOT planned as a series) is a blockbuster, and you 
>    can't quite top it or come close (aka Dune)

I have heard from various sources (including Herbert himself) that the
first three books of the Dune series were plotted out before Dune was
published.  Herbert wanted to publish them as one big book but no one would
do it.

The problem was that Dune (especially as proposed) was far larger than any
sf novel published before that time (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is maybe
3/4 Dune's size and had the record to that point (I don't count LOTR, it
was published in the U.K. where the rules are different)).  No publisher
was going to take the risk of publishing that huge a book, so they
published a smaller book which was still larger than any previous sf book.
(Stranger in a Strange Land came out about the same time and is about as
large.)

I agree that the later Dune books were not as good as Dune itself (although
Dune Messiah comes close; it had a somewhat unhappy ending so was naturally
less popular than the first).  So, what accounts for the fact that Children
of Dune was plotted out and even partly written before Dune, but was not as
good a book?

My theory:
   1) since publishing Dune was a risk, the publishers edited
      the book very carefully and made Herbert do more rewrites, etc.
      Once Dune became a hit, the publishers had less editorial
      control because Herbert was now a "name" author (sort of a
      miniature Heinlein effect).

   2) Herbert said most of what he had to say in the first book.
      What he didn't say there, he said in Dune Messiah.  After that
      he was just rehashing the same ideas (perhaps he put ideas
      into Dune that were originally meant for the later books,
      since he wasn't sure he would get to publish them).

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 19:55:19 GMT
From: rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
> [ We're talking about Dune and sequels ]
>I have heard from various sources (including Herbert himself) that the
>first three books of the Dune series were plotted out before Dune was
>published.  [...]  I agree that the later Dune books were not as good as
>Dune itself (although Dune Messiah comes close; it had a somewhat unhappy
>ending so was naturally less popular than the first).  So, what accounts
>for the fact that Children of Dune was plotted out and even partly written
>before Dune, but was not as good a book?

Just to show you that tastes differ, I think, and most of my friends agree,
that Dune is very good, Messiah is absolute trash, and Children kind of OK.
God Emperor isn't worthy of being used as toilet paper, and that's where I
gave up, so I don't about the rest.

I also do not agree that the ending of Messiah is predominantly unhappy;
sad perhaps, but with a clear indication of hope for the future, and a
feeling that at least Paul himself was at peace with his fate.

Children gets back to the ``look and feel'' of Dune.  Unfortunately, for me
at least, it gets back to the part of it that I like least, viz the _look
mam, I'm being mystical_ approach to mysticism.

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 14:56:32 GMT
From: h52y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>Just to show you that tastes differ, I think, and most of my friends
>agree, that Dune is very good, Messiah is absolute trash, and Children
>kind of OK.  God Emperor isn't worthy of being used as toilet paper, and
>that's where I gave up, so I don't know about the rest.

Actually, if you can stomach getting through God Emperor, the last two
books, in my opinion, are actually close to the level of the original.  (Of
course, by that time, it's been roughly 5000 years since DUNE, so it's a
whole new universe.)  I recommend it, particularly to anyone who is
interested in the Bene Gesserit and ESPECIALLY the Bene Tleilax :-).

Just out of curiosity, what did everyone who's read it think of the DUNE
Encyclopedia?  I thought that it was extremely well put together, but that
could just be me.

H52Y@CRNLVAX5 (BITNET)
H52Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU (INTERNET)
(UUCP)  ...!rochester!cornell!vax5.ccs.cornell.edu!h52y

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 88 06:12:17 GMT
From: Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

I hate to tell you this yjk (couldn't find your real name, sorry), so far I
haven't found ANY books by Moorcock that don't tie into the Eternal
Champion in one way or another. SOOOOOOO....by default, any book you find
will be part of the Eternal Champion Series.

However, if you want some of the better stuff, that directly ties in, here's
a short list off the top of my head.

Elric Saga:
 Elric of Melnebone
 The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
 The Weird of the White Wolf
 The Bane of the Black Sword
 The Vanishing Tower
 Stormbringer

The Chronicles of Corum:
 The Kight of the Swords
 The Queen of the Swords
 The King of the Swords

The Chronicles of Cornelieus (sp?)
 The First , Second and Third Chronicles of Cornelieus (again,sp?)

The High History of the Runestaff
 The Jewel in the Skull
 The Mad God's Amulet
 The Sword of the Dawn
 The Runestaff

The Chronicles of Castle Brass
 Count Brass
 (Can't remember the name of book two, someone else will fill it in
  hopefully!)
 The Quest for Tanelorn (End of the Eternal Champion Series)

Hope this helped,
Matt Mossholder 
Elric-Kinslayer@cup.potal.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 88 09:50:31 GMT
From: stolaf!holdenm@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Mark Holden)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com writes:
> I hate to tell you this yjk (couldn't find your real name, sorry), so far
> I haven't found ANY books by Moorcock that don't tie into the Eternal
> Champion in one way or another. SOOOOOOO....by default, any book you find
> will be part of the Eternal Champion Series.

   How 'bout:
      Glorianna
      The Warlord of the Air (there are others connected w/this one)

I'm sure there are more, but all the Moorcock books I have at the
 moment are boxed up...

> The Chronicles of Castle Brass
>  Count Brass
>  (Can't remember the name of book two, someone else will fill it in
>   hopefully!)

Illian (sp?) of Garathorm (again sp?)

Mark Holden

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 17:18:18 GMT
From: rich@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Rich Little)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com writes:
>I hate to tell you this yjk (couldn't find your real name, sorry), so far
>I haven't found ANY books by Moorcock that don't tie into the Eternal
>Champion in one way or another. SOOOOOOO....by default, any book you find
>will be part of the Eternal Champion Series.
>
>However, if you want some of the better stuff, that directly ties in,
>here's a short list off the top of my head.

( List omitted in interests of brevity )

 There are three more books which directly tie into the Eternal Champion
"meta-series"; they concern John Daker/Erokose. Their titles are:

   The Eternal Champion
   The Silver Warriors 
   The Dragon in the Sword.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 01:00:35 GMT
From: Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

   Holdenm@stolaf.UUCP (Mark Holden) writes his opinion that Glorianna and
the Warlord of the Air are not books in the Eternal Champion series.  A
little closer reading will show this as incorrect. In Glorianna, there is a
reference to Arioch, an obvious eternal champion character, and that book's
so like to the rest of the multiverse (I know.. it's streching it a bit
but it's THERE!). There are a couple of links in the Warlord of the Air to
other book. The Valley of Dawn is where the biggest link is. (Kina slips my
mind right now what it was but I believe Una Persson of The Chornelious
Chronicles showed up, didn't she?)

Anyway, if you look at any of his books close enough, there is a link to
some others.

Matt Mossholder
Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 14:30:27 GMT
From: kerog@eneevax.umd.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

> There are three more books which directly tie into the Eternal Champion
>"meta-series"; they concern John Daker/Erokose. Their titles are:
>   The Eternal Champion
>   The Silver Warriors 
>   The Dragon in the Sword.

I didn't mention these before, because I thought someone else would, but no
one has yet listed the books in the second Chronicles of Corum.  I can't
remember the titles of all of them now (I'm sure someone else will,
though), but I think one is The Oak and the Ram.  One might be something
like The Spear and the Bull (I think I got that one garbled) Right.  Well,
someone will correct me.

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 01:55:27 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

Re: ``All Moorcock is in the "Eternal Champion" series'' stuff.

What about "The War Hound and the World's Pain"?

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 17:31:09 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: Moorcock

   Here we go!  I first read Moorcock's Elric Saga and was very impressed
by the story.  When I find an author I like I tend to follow up on him/her
as best I can.  In the case of Mr. Moorcock this proved to be a bigger
challenge than usual.  Some of the English published books give lists of
his works.  The lists are not very well edited and tend to list books that
I have trouble believing exist.  This could be just because of poor
American distibution of Moorcock's work, however.  In any case, the list
below is all of Mr. Moorcock's books that I have actually seen in print,
either in my collection or on a bookstore shelf.  I have put asterisks by
the ones that I believe are Eternal Champion related.  As I have only read
the Elric Saga so far I am going on what other Moorcock readers have told
me is related.  This may mean some of my information is wrong (I like to
verify things myself).  If any of it is I apologize in advance.  Without
further ado, the list....

THE ELRIC SAGA: *
Elric of Melnibone
The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
The Weird of the White Wolf
The Vanishing Tower
The Bane of the Black Sword
Stormbringer

ERIKOSE: *
The Eternal Champion
The Silver Warriors (Pheonix in Obsidian)
The Dragon in the Sword

HAWKMOON: *
The Runestaff:
The Jewel in the Skull
The Mad God's Amulet
The Runestaff

Count Brass:
Count Brass
The Champion of Garatharm
The Quest for Tanelorn

A WARRIOR OF MARS:
The City of the Beast
Lord of the Spiders
The Master of the Pit

CORUM: *  
The Book of Swords:
The Knight of Swords 
The Queen of Swords 
The King of Swords 

The Chronicles of Corum:
The Bull and the Spear 
The Oak and the Ram 
The Sword and the Stallion 

THE NOMAD OF TIME: *
The Warlords of the Air
The Land Leviathan 
The Steel Czar 

THE DANCERS AT THE END OF TIME: *
An Alien Heat 
The Hollow Lands 
The End of all Songs 
Legends from the End of Time
A Messiah at the End of Time (The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming?) 
Elric at the End of Time (short story) 

JERRY CORNELIUS: *
The Final Programme
A Cure for Cancer
The English Assassin
The Condition of Muzak
The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius
The Entropy Tango
The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th Century
The Alchemist's Question

(As yet un-named collection): *
The Warhound and the World's Pain
The City and the Autumn Stars

OTHERS:
Gloriana *
Breakfast in the Ruins *
The Ice Schooner *(?)
Byzantium Endures
The Brothel in Rosenstrasse
The Time Dwellers
The Blood Red Game
The Rituals of Infinity
The Golden Barge
The Black Cooridor *
The Chinese Agent
The Russian Intelligence
Behold the Man
The Shores of Death
The Winds of Limbo
The Laughter of Carthage

   Some final notes.  I put Elric at the End of Time at the end of Dancers
for lack of a better place to put it (the Elric Saga didn't seem
appropriate).  There are many other Jerry Cornelius short stories by
various authors.  The character was made to be a shared writer's tool for
one of Moorcock's magazines.I don't believe that any of these JC stories
have been reprinted.  As a final warning, this list is probably incomplete
and probably misinformed in places.  In any event, to whomever the original
poster was, good luck and good reading.

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 88 17:22:12 GMT
From: Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

Peter da Silva (Peter@sugar.uu.net) writes in a few words that the book The
Warhound and the World's Pain is not part of the Eternal Champion series.
I am sure I can find some junctures to the rest of the multiverse if I have
to, do you really want me to go back and look? I will but only if you
really want me to (my books are all in storage right now due to lack of
shelving after a recent move). I have even talked about this with Moorcock
himself and he said that the only things he has written that didn't tie in
were the early Tarzan stories he wrote for a British fanzine.

Matt Mossholder
Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 88 19:53:58 GMT
From: terman@portia.stanford.edu (Martin Terman)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock

Elric-Kinslayer@cup.portal.com writes:
>Peter da Silva (Peter@sugar.uu.net) writes in a few words that the book
>The Warhound and the World's Pain is not part of the Eternal Champion
>series.

Yes it is. For those who read the _The Dragon in the Sword_, they have a
descendant of the hero in _The Warhound and the World's Pain_ appear, and
he picks up the Grail in that book too. Von Beck, (of _TWatWP_) is not an
aspect of the Eternal Champion, as he doesn't seem to bear any aspect of
the Black Sword, although the Grail seems to be another aspect of the
Runestaff. There are hints in _TWatWP_ that it is part of the multiverse,
as Arioch is one of the demons trying to destroy that world.

A question is, is the von Beck in _The City in the Autumn Stars_ an aspect
of the Champion? He does bear a magical sword.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 21:24:19 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Tim Powers

GOFFINET@wums.BITNET writes:
>I am new to the net..  Has anyone read any of Tim Powers books?  I have
>read Dinner at Deviant's Palace and the Aneubus(sp) Gates...  Has he
>written anything else?  Thanks for any help that you can give me..

Ahhhh..of course, don't forget _The_Drawing_of_the_Dark_, and excellent
novel (OK, my opinion) about the most important beer in the world, the
Fisher King, the reincarnations of Siegfried, Mannannan MacLir, and King
Arthur. What more could you ask for? (except maybe an all expense-paid tour
of all the bookstores in Boston, with a few thou in spending money...) I
last saw this a few years ago in paperback; I don't see any reason it
_wouldn't_ still be in publication, but then I never figured out why they
canceled _Police_Squad_, so go figure.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
508-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 19:27:05 GMT
From: cg-atla!duane@swan.ulowell.edu (Andrew Duane)
Subject: Re: Tim Powers

rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit) writes:
> GOFFINET@wums.BITNET writes:
>>I am new to the net..  Has anyone read any of Tim Powers books?  I have
>>read Dinner at Deviant's Palace and the Aneubus(sp) Gates...  Has he
>>written anything else?  Thanks for any help that you can give me..
>
> Ahhhh..of course, don't forget _The_Drawing_of_the_Dark_, and excellent
> novel (OK, my opinion) about the most important beer in the world ...

And don't forget "Forsake the Sky", which is a re-publish of an older book,
maybe his first, originally under a different title.  On second thought,
maybe you should forget it. It was a rather forgettable book...

Andrew L. Duane
Compugraphic Corp.	
200 Ballardvale St.
Wilmington, Mass. 01887
Mail Stop 200II-3-5S	
w:(508)-658-5600 X5993
h:(603)-434-7934
decvax!cg-atla!duane

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 07:12:00 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Tim Powers

duane@cg-atla (Andrew Duane) writes:
>And don't forget "Forsake the Sky", which is a re-publish of an
>older book, maybe his first, originally under a different title.

  Actually, a re-write. I read the original and still can't recall the
name.

  No mention yet of "On Stranger Tides" (or whatever), his latest.  This is
along the lines of "Drawing of the Dark" and "Anubis Gates", but alas not
as good.

  The title, of course, is from a poem by Ashbless.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 9 Sep 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 257

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Jackson & Pohl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 09:39:50 GMT
From: utah-gr!donn@mailrus.cc.umich.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Help wanted: Shirley Jackson

[I was planning to post this some months ago, but never quite got around to
completing it.  The arrival of a new Jackson biography (PRIVATE DEMONS, by
Oppenheimer, which I haven't read yet) seemed to make this an auspicious
time to finish the piece, so here it is, rather belated but (I hope) still
useful...  -- Donn]

Jed Hartman <swatsun!hartman> writes:

>...  The last page in [THE SUNDIAL] (a paperback edition) is page 190, and
>the dialogue goes right up to the last line of the page, and there is
>evidence that pages have been removed at the end.  ...  I didn't expect it
>to end at the point where it stops, but most of the loose ends have been
>tied up and it could be an ending.  ...

(Ordinarily I'd just send you mail, but I can't resist an opportunity to
plug Shirley Jackson.) I have the Penguin paperback edition (1986), which
has 245 pages; however p. 190 does not contain any dialogue and ends in the
middle of a sentence, so I must assume that you have another edition.  The
Penguin edition ends with a couple pages' worth of seemingly random
dialogue, including the devilish little fragment:

   'It wasn't the plot so much, you know, ... it was the ACTING.  I mean,
   it was so real you really got to thinking they were real people.  Just
   WONDERFUL acting.  Of course, they used real natives, and most of the
   photography was done right there in the Oturi Forest, with the animals
   -- you know?  But I actually cried when they tortured --'

If, as I suspect, this paragraph is on your p. 190, then you do indeed have
all the text, at least as much as I know about.

If you liked THE SUNDIAL, there's a good chance that you'll like some of
Jackson's other work.  There really isn't as much as you might imagine: six
novels, two short-story collections (one posthumous) and two collections of
'family magazine' nonfiction about raising her four children.  I've read
the two collections, five of the novels and have glanced at the family
pieces; I'll try to give a short summary of the work and you can pick out
what interests you and give it a test.  First, the novels...

THE ROAD THROUGH THE WALL (1948).  Jackson's first novel; I haven't read
it, but I gather it deals with growing up in California.

HANGSAMAN (1951).  I carefully avoided reading the blurb when I picked up
this novel, and it paid off handsomely.  My own summary is simple: a young
woman goes to college and finds that things are not as they seem.  The
motivation for the story could be either psychological or supernatural; I
think I like a little of each.  The parts that deal with the stupidity of
academic life are clearly drawn from experience, but I thought they dragged
a bit.  The best parts are the beginning and the end, although the
denouement is a bit of a cop-out.  The suspense leading up to the climax is
great; the atmosphere and dialogue made me think of the contemporary
English horror writer Ramsey Campbell.  Much weaker than the other Jackson
novels I've read, but still very good.

THE BIRD'S NEST (1954).  I think this novel is fantastic, in both senses of
the word.  Elizabeth Richmond is one of those colorless and unobtrusive
people who fill the dusty corners of our society.  She works as a clerk in
a museum and lives with her Aunt Morgen; she passively resists her aunt's
attempts to get her involved with other people.  One day she receives a
peculiar letter at work: 'Dear Lizzie,' it begins, 'your fool's paradise is
gone now for good...' By the time the book ends, the reader has experienced
taut psychological suspense, slapstick comedy, the depths of madness and
perhaps just a hint of witchcraft.  The exquisite characterization and
dialog that make Jackson such great reading are fully developed here, and
they are embedded in a plot that twists and turns and frequently menaces.
Here's a sample of Jackson's wonderful ability to create a character:

   Although Aunt Morgen was the type of woman freely described as
   'masculine,' if she had been a man she would have cut a very poor figure
   indeed.  If she had been a man she would have been middle-sized,
   weak-jawed, shifty-eyed, and clumsy; fortunately, having been born not a
   man, she had turned out a woman, and had of necessity adopted from
   adolescence (with what grief, perhaps, and frantic railings against the
   iniquities of fate, which made her sister lovely) the personality of the
   gruff, loud-voiced woman so invariably described as 'masculine.'  Her
   manner was free, her voice loud, she loved eating and drinking and said
   she loved men; she took toward her sober niece an attitude of avuncular
   heartiness, and among her few friends she was regarded as fairly dashing
   because of her fondness for blunt truths and her comprehensive
   statements about baseball.

I love the rhythms in Jackson's prose.  I've always wondered how much of
this description applied to Jackson herself...  Again, if you want to avoid
spoilers, you'll want to ignore the blurb.  My edition has a fairly useless
introduction by Peter Prescott that also spoils far too much.

THE SUNDIAL (1958).  This book is a tragedy, and a comedy.  The world is
about to end, and only a select few will survive to see the new beginning.
The tragedy and the comedy lie in who gets chosen and who does not.  Who
shall it be?  Around the story are entwined two quotations, WHEN SHALL WE
LIVE IF NOT NOW?, engraved in a hallway of the Halloran mansion, and WHAT
IS THIS WORLD? inscribed upon the sundial.

   The question of belief is a curious one, partaking of the wonders of
   childhood and the blind hopefulness of the very old; in all the world
   there is not someone who does not believe something.  It might be
   suggested, and not easily disproven that anything, no matter how exotic,
   can be believed by someone.  On the other hand, abstract belief is
   largely impossible; it is the concrete, the actuality of the cup, the
   candle, the sacrificial stone, which hardens belief; the statue is
   nothing until it cries, the philosophy is nothing until the philosopher
   is martyred.

Would you have to wait for the end of the world to find out what you
believe?  THE SUNDIAL is an acidly funny book, with characteristically
witty dialogue and a good dose of frights.  If Shirley Jackson has come to
have the reputation of being a misanthrope, this book, and the story 'The
Lottery', have much to do with it.  One curious feature of THE SUNDIAL is
its depiction of the sexes: the men are drawn as weak and ineffectual or
slimy and threatening, and they will be poorly represented in the next
world, while the women are petty and cynical, constantly struggling to
dominate one another by exploiting the others' weaknesses.  In general men
play a very peripheral role in Jackson's work, but THE SUNDIAL takes this
to an interesting extreme.

THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE (1959).  For what it's worth, Stephen King says
that HILL HOUSE and James's THE TURN OF THE SCREW 'are the only two great
novels of the supernatural in the last hundred years'.  For my money, HILL
HOUSE is the best balanced and most exquisitely tuned of Jackson's novels
- -- it has joyfully fun dialogue, acutely eccentric characters, a wickedly
erratic plot and a palpable sense of evil.

   It started again, as though it had been listening, waiting to hear their
   voices and what they said, to identify them, to know how well prepared
   they were against it, waiting to hear if they were afraid.  So suddenly
   that Eleanor leaped back against the bed and Theodora gasped and cried
   out, the iron crash came against their door, and both of them lifted
   their eyes in horror, because the hammering was against the upper edge
   of the door, higher than either of them could reach, higher than Luke or
   the doctor could reach, and the sickening, degrading cold came in waves
   from whatever was outside the door.

   Eleanor stood perfectly still and looked at the door.  She did not quite
   know what to do, although she believed that she was thinking coherently
   and was not unusually frightened, not more frightened, certainly, than
   she had believed in her worst dreams she could be.  The cold troubled
   her even more than the sounds; even Theodora's warm robe was useless
   against the icy little curls of fingers on her back.  The intelligent
   thing to do, perhaps, was to walk over and open the door; that, perhaps,
   would belong with the doctor's views of pure scientific inquiry.
   Eleanor knew that, even if her feet would take her as far as the door,
   her hand would not lift to the doorknob; impartially, remotely, she told
   herself that no one's hand would touch that knob; it's not the work
   hands were made for, she told herself.  She had been rocking a little,
   each crash against the door pushing her a little backward, and now she
   was still because the noise was fading.  'I'm going to complain to the
   janitor about the radiators,' Theodora said from behind her.  'Is it
   stopping?'

   'No,' Eleanor said, sick.  'No.'

A strange little band of ghost hunters has come to take the measure of Hill
House.  Dr. Montague is obsessed with the big breakthrough that will prove
his theories about hauntings.  Theodora is a witty and playful woman who
has scored high on tests of psychic ability.  Luke Sanderson is a liar and
a petty thief, and not coincidentally the nephew of Hill House's current
owner.  Eleanor Vance, the protagonist, is a shy, secluded woman who has
spent the last eleven years tending to (and hating) her invalid mother; she
was brought to Dr. Montague's attention by reports that a poltergeist had
attacked her home after her father had died when she was young...  The
narrative alternates between wonderfully witty dialogue and chilling
suspense; madness, never far from the surface in Jackson's novels, slowly
begins to penetrate the story and explodes in the climax.  This is one of
those books which I can read over and over and find something new on each
re-reading...

WE HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE CASTLE (1962).  This charming novel about
ghosts and mass murder and insanity is in many ways just as delightful as
HILL HOUSE, but seems to be much less read.  It has perhaps the strangest
and most interesting characters in all of Jackson's novels, the two sisters
Constance and Mary Katherine 'Merricat' Blackwood, survivors along with
their Uncle Julian of an arsenic-laced sugar bowl that killed the rest of
the family:

   'Do you know,' Constance said, looking into a pot on the stove, 'I think
   that soon we will be picking lettuce; the weather has stayed so warm.'

   'On the moon,' I said, and then stopped.

   'On the moon,' Constance said, turning to smile at me, 'you have lettuce
   all year round, perhaps?'

   'On the moon we have everything.  Lettuce, and pumpkin pie and Amanita
   phalloides.  We have cat-furred plants and horses dancing with their
   wings.  All the locks are solid and tight, and there are no ghosts.  On
   the moon Uncle Julian would be well and the sun would shine every day.
   You would wear our mother's pearls and sing, and the sun would shine all
   the time.'

The villagers treat the Blackwoods as though they were dead, but when
cousin Charles arrives, he has a very vital concern about the Blackwood
girls' inheritance that attracts and disturbs Constance, and seems certain
to destroy the idyllic world that Merricat has built on the Blackwood
estate.  With the help of some Black(wood) magic, Merricat struggles to
save Constance, and the consequences are both hilarious and unexpected...
CASTLE is funny and tender and strange and exhilarating.

THE LOTTERY (1948).  This is the only collection of Jackson's short stories
that is widely available, which is a pity, since it omits some
extraordinary stories like 'One Ordinary Day, With Peanuts'.  Someone ought
to collect Jackson's more outre stories and market the result to fantasy
and horror aficionados (that's 'fan' with two 'a's).  Fortunately this
collection has some wonderfully bizarre stories in it, although you have to
settle for some less interesting stuff too.  Among the highlights: 'The
Daemon Lover', about a marriage made in some other place than heaven; 'Like
Mother Used to Make', a deliciously wicked tale about dinner; 'The Witch',
a 5-page shocker about a 4-year-old; 'Charles', about Jackson's son Laurie
and his naughty playmate; 'Colloquy', about Mrs. Arnold's problem with
reality decay; 'Pillar of Salt', in which getting lost in the city can
entail getting lost in a deeper sense; and my favorite, 'The Tooth', a
breathtakingly exotic tale in which Clara Spencer visits a dentist in New
York:

   She woke up later because the bus had stopped, the end of that silent
   motion through the darkness so positive a shock that it woke her
   stunned, and it was a minute before the ache began again.  People were
   moving along the aisle of the bus and the driver, turning around, said,
   'Fifteen minutes.' She got up and followed everyone else out, all but
   her eyes still asleep, her feet moving without awareness.  They were
   stopped beside an all-night restaurant, lonely and lighted on the vacant
   road.  Inside, it was warm and busy and full of people.  She saw a seat
   at the end of the counter and sat down, not aware that she had fallen
   asleep again when someone sat down next to her and touched her arm.
   When she looked around foggily he said, 'Traveling far?'

   'Yes,' she said.

   He was wearing a blue suit and he looked tall; she could not focus her
   eyes to see any more.

   'You want coffee?' he asked.

   She nodded and he pointed to the counter in front of her where a cup of
   coffee sat steaming.

   'Drink it quickly,' he said.

   She sipped at it delicately; she may have put her face down and tasted
   it without lifting the cup.  The strange man was talking.

   'Even farther than Samarkand,' he was saying, 'and the waves ringing on
   the shore like bells.'

And, of course, 'The Lottery'.  I still quite like this story, despite the
fact that I (like everyone else in this country) was forced to read it in
high school, and thus by all rights should despise it.  It has such a
timeless quality, a (lack of) innocence that speaks to the generations.
It's also violent and subversive and evil, and caused many people to cancel
their subscriptions to the New Yorker (where it first appeared).  Never
mind, read it anyway -- it's good for you.

Jackson also produced a few nonfiction books.  Two are 'Please Don't Eat
The Daisies' family life books made up of articles from 'women's magazines'
(RAISING DEMONS (1957) and LIFE AMONG THE SAVAGES (???)).  One book that I
haven't seen is called THE WITCHCRAFT OF SALEM VILLAGE (1956); I ought to
track it down and see whether it's worth reading.  There's also a
posthumous collection, edited by her husband Stanley Hyman, titled COME
ALONG WITH ME; it contains what remains of the novel Jackson was working on
when she died (in her forties) plus some short stories (a couple of which
are interesting from the fantasy viewpoint) and some articles (the funniest
of which deals with the reactions to the publication of 'The Lottery').
I've never seen a paperback edition of COME ALONG; I found the original
edition in the campus library.  If there are any important Jackson books
that I've missed, let me know.

By now you're either desperate to grab a Jackson novel, or you're wishing
you'd never heard of her,

Donn Seeley
University of Utah CS Dept
(801) 581-5668
donn@cs.utah.edu
utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 88 04:13:37 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series

One of my favorite examples of the deteriorating series was the Heechee
saga by Pohl.  The first book was great, but the books got exponentially
worse.  I like to say that this series kind of parallels Heinlein's career,
at least as perceived by me.  Really started well, ended up being
drugstore- philosophy for the rich.

Vernon Lee
Rice University               
ARPA/CSNET:  scorpion@rice.edu
UUCP: {internet or backbone site}!rice!scorpion

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 9 Sep 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 258

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 88 21:09:55 GMT
From: mnetor!alberta!obed!steve@uunet.uu.net (Stephen Samuel)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

wauford@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (Melissa Wauford) writes:
>peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>abostick@gethen.UUCP (Alan Bostick) writes:
>>[ Examples of rude, evil, and bizzarre behaviour at cons ]
>>
>>> Why is it happening?  It isn't clear, but I have some rather vague
>>> theories, which have started solidifying due to conversations with
>>> others.
>
> Worldcons, don't seem to be having the same troubles as some of the big
>[...]  Perhaps Worldcons expend more effort on security.  Or perhaps they
> are SO big that there are plenty of open parties to keep everyone happy
> (and enough people around to make it difficult to get away with
> anything).  It's a tough

 I think that it may be more the latter.  Here in Alberta (and the one BC
con I've been at) there have been very few examples of people causing big
problems with the hotels in the last couple of years.  The two noticable
things I can think of in thes cases are:
 1) An open and ACTIVE con-suite. At the last non-con the con-suite was
ALWAYS open (although various parts were cleared, from time to time, for
cleaning).  New people were encouraged and, in many cases, GOHs were
encouraged to show up/stay in the con-suite.
 2) People who cared were in existence.  In one case, at ConVersion, where
a young member got sloshed and started causing problems, a couple of people
took him to the con-suite and placed him under chair arrest ("move from
that chair, and you're LUNCH!") for a few hours (basically, until he
sobbered up).

Here in Edmonton, we can actually get Hotels to BID for cons.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 88 22:23:42 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@marque.mu.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon Review)

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>brad@looking (Brad Templeton) writes:
>>One can hardly be surprised at the attitude many Hotels have to SF cons.
>But, gosh wow, isn't that "discrimination" and "emotional distress"?

YES, it's discrimination.  Not against us, really, except insofar as open
parties draw riff-raff (which is why there's a trend toward closed parties,
and why Boskone now only allows pre-registration).  Is this so hard for
anyone except weemba to understand?  (Answer: of course not.)

Weemba, the riff-raff cause con-goers as much distress as they cause the
hotel staff.  But the hotels nail concoms for it because the riff-raff
aren't registered or otherwise trackable.  (I won't explain here, I assume
you are capable of reading the other articles on this subject, so I won't
waste net bandwidth re-hashing them.)

Of course, this posting will simply be mangled into something that weemba
can use to fuel a flame, so posting it is probably pointless, but....

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!marque!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 12:35:00 GMT
From: U00254@hasara5.bitnet ("Jacqueline Cote")
Subject: WorldCon 1990 agents for the US

Agents for the US   (other agents upon request)

UNITED STATES
Marc s. Glasser
P.O. Box 1252, Bowling Green Station
New York, NY 10274

David Schlosser
6620 Hazeltine Avenue 9
Van Nuys, CA 91405

WorldCon 1990 email contact :

U00254@HASARA5.BITNET
mcvax!hasara5.bitnet!u00254

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 17:05:40 GMT
From: datack!cratz@altnet.altos.com (Tony Cratz)
Subject: Re: Red Lions & cons

lah@SOE.BERKELEY.EDU (Leigh Ann Hussey Oster) writes:
>Hm, that may not be true of all Red Lions.  The SFBay Area regional,
>Baycon, has been held at the San Jose Red Lion for some years now, and I
>(as, granted, only a mere author-type guest) was under the impression that
>the SJo Red Lion was quite happy with Baycon.
>
>Anybody know different?

You are quite correct. In fact I heard that the Red Lion called the
chairman of next year Baycon and apologized for the paper article and said
that they 'Red Lion' did NOT have any problem with Baycon. I will let
hpda!baycon response if they have anything that they want to add.

Tony Cratz
Datachecker
800 Central Expressway MS 33-36
Santa Clara, Ca 95052
(408) 982-3585
uunet!altnet!datack!cratz

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 03:17:49 GMT
From: c3pe!stein@decuac.dec.com (Mike Stein)
Subject: Re: Timecon Review

At the next-to-last Rivercon in Louisville, KY the hotel was shared by a
"Sweet 16" HS basketball team and its hangers-on.  The congoers were pretty
well-behaved, but the kids ran amok, assaulting con members and generally
making everyone's life miserable.  The hotel buried its head in the sand.

At a con in Lansing, MI the trouble came from some adult softball teams.

A lot of people just seem to go nuts when they're not at home.

Mike Stein
{ decvax, uunet }!decuac!c3pe!stein

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 06:29:30 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: 1990 Nasfic Information

Information on ConDiego 1990 NASFIC

   The 1990 North American Science Fiction Convention will be in San Diego
at the Marriott Hotel, August 30 - September 3, 1990.

Professional Guest of Honor:	Samuel Delany
Fan Guest of Honor:		Ben Yalow

For more information:

   ConDiego/1990 Nasfic
   P.O. Box 15771
   San Diego, California  92115
   United States of America
   (619) 461-1917

Victor O'Rear
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc.mil}!crash!victoro      
ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 88 21:29:00 GMT
From: justin@inmet.inmet.com
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons (was Re: Timecon

Re: the horror of the modern SF con

Just so that those who *aren't* active con-goers don't get the wrong idea,
I'm going to play the voice of optimism. Things aren't really *that* bad.
Most cons are relatively small, have a much higher concentration of fen (as
opposed to people who just want a good party), and don't really have many
problems.  Even the infamous "Boskone debacle" wasn't that bad to us plebes
who weren't running the thing. The only problems that were visible from
ground level were: a) a spurious fire alarm or two, apparently caused by
cigarette smoke; and b) some *seriously* fascist hotel security (I'm not
talking about wild parties here, either; I'm talking about security guards
walking up and down the aisles of the movie room, telling people to "sit
down or get out" in as many words.)

Here's an interesting statistic to explore: how does the hooligan level
relate to the nearness of the Con to a large city? Boskone *did* have a lot
of crashers, and was inside a largish city; Balticon quite noticeably
*doesn't* have anywhere near as many, and is several miles out of town.
Other data points?

Justin du Coeur

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 20:59:40 GMT
From: thalan@ihlpf.att.com (Jones)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>usenet@nancy.UUCP writes:
>> Hal Heydt wrote a little bit about minors at conventions.  This is going
>> off on a bit of a tangent, but I believe that in the current, anonymous
>> nature of large SF conventions, the presence of large numbers of minors,
>> quite a few of them drinking illegally, will eventually result in a
>> serious legal action.  When this happens, convention fandom will be
>> shaken to its core, because hotels won't want to deal with conventions
>> which get them sued.  (A bit apocalyptic there, perhaps; but there is
>> this fantasy in various portions of fandom that Laws and Social Norms
>> are Suspended During Conventions, and this fantasy is going to get
>> people into trouble eventually.)
>
> Too damned right!  At least with an adult, you can settle fault in a way
> that it will be covered.  Most con committees are at great risk of
> *personal* losses.  (That's what limited liability corporations are for.)
> What happens the first time some committee gets sued for their backteeth?
> Either because they won't (or can't) pay for damages done to the hotel,
> or little Johnny gets hurt (or worse) because the damn fool got smashed
> at somebodys party and fell out a window?  Somehow--I don't think a jury
> is going to buy the typical explanations. . .

Perhaps it would be best if any age limit was used by the hotel on who
could stay there during a convention.  Parents shouldn't be letting minors
go to out of town SF Cons by themselves anyway!!  And perhaps some
restriction is needed by the Con Committee's when admitting minors to some
of the activites that go on at the Cons.  I think just a little more
attention needs to be paid to the rules and enforcement maintained to help
remedy the situation.  SF Cons should be FUN yes, but not at the expense of
someone's safety!

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 88 05:11:43 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Timecon Review

andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) writes:
>stein@c3pe.UUCP (Mike Stein) writes:
>>At the next-to-last Rivercon in Louisville, KY the hotel was shared by a
> 
> Then there was the time Philcon shared the hotel with an undertaker's
> convention...
> 
> (On the other hand, their giveaways were very popular
> with the Philcon crowd :-)   )

I have heard about (I wasn't there--*sigh*.) the time that a SFWA Con at
the Claremont in Berkeley overlapped with a convention of Little Old Lady
Baptists.  Randall Garrett came out of the bar carrying a lit cigarette--

LOL: Sniff. I suppose you *drink*, too?

Garrett: Yes, Ma'am, and I also f**k.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708       
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 88 05:28:17 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

thalan@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Jones) writes:
> Perhaps it would be best if an age limit was used by the hotel on who
> could stay there during a convention.  Parents shouldn't be letting
> minors go to out of town SF Cons by themselves anyway!!  And perhaps some
> restriction is needed by the Con Committee's when admitting minors to
> some of the activites that go on at the Cons.  I think just a little more
> attention needs to be paid to the rules and enforcement maintained to
> help remedy the situation.  SF Cons should be FUN yes, but not at the
> expense of someone's safety!

Great idea.  Too bad it's impossible to enforce.  First off, quite a few
cons use a "no children, unless accompanied by an adult" rule.  This is
normally done by requiring a full membership.  I know one person who has
thwarted that for years by buying full memberships for the relevant
kids--regardless of age--then letting the kid run wild at the con.  The
parent is there--but not in control.  Another dodge (assuming money is not
TOO tight) is to go, buy the adult and 'child' memberships, and then the
adult leaves.  The con rules are satisfied--to no avail.  To even begin to
try to make such rules effective will require massive cooperation between
the ConCom and the hotel.  Somehow, I just can't see the hotel opening it's
records to the ConCom to cross-check con memberships against hotel
registrations.  Not to mention the problem name mismatches and various
forms of room sharing.

As far as I can see, there are two basic alternatives--
1.  Do what the big fraternal organizations do.  Get a large enough
    insurance policy to cover any damages or put up a large enough deposit
    with the hotel to cover any damages--as billed by the hotel-- and don't
    worry about it.  The hotel will be 'happy' (they'll make money) but the
    cost of going to cons will rise steeply.

2.  Figure as many ways as possible to crack down on rowdy behavior.
    Make cons into the nearest thing to a police state--for at least the
    next ten years.  See if you can make it *impossible* to trash a hotel
    and get away with it.  *Insist* on arresting troublemakers and pressing
    charges afterwards.  Sue them for everything you can think of.  If the
    problem is minors--sue and/or charge the parents.  Make trouble at cons
    just too damn expensive to even think about.

Please note--I don't like either of these schemes.  I think they both would
destroy SF Cons in anything like the form we know them now.  If someone has
a workable alternative--I'd like to hear it, but it has to be something
that I can't shoot so many holes in so easily.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708       
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 88 14:12:56 GMT
From: fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox)
Subject: St. Louis Fantasy Fan Fair Convention

The St. Louis Fantasy Fan Fair Convention is Octobor 14, 15, and 16 at the
Breckenridge Frontenac Hotel.  This will be a Dr. Who/Blake's 7/SF in
general convention.

Scheduled Guests are:
   John Levene (Sgt. Benton from Dr. Who)
   Frazier Hines (Jamie from Dr. Who)
   Sally Knyvette (Jenna from Blake's 7)
   George Perez (SF and comic book author)

For registration information, mail to
   St. Louis Fantasy Fan Fair
   care of Gloria Linke
   12402 Conway Rd.
   St. Louis, Mo.  63141

For Hotel reservations, contact
   Breckenridge Frontenac Hotel
   1335 S. Lindbergh
   St. Louis, Mo. 63131
   1-800-325-7800 out of Missouri or
   (314) 993-1100 in Missouri.

Please note that I am only posting this for a friend.  Do not send me email
about this.  I will post further information as I get it.

Richard Fox

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 88 21:24:10 GMT
From: mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: Convention Blues

I have read mostly F+SF for as long as I can remember, but after 10 years
of cons I've ended up with most of my activities in the fringes such as
costuming, filking (listening and collecting tapes - I'll sing along but
haven't had any luck writing my own) and media zine collecting.  I want to
second Dusty Jones' opinion on the hotel/convention problem:

> Let's not blame it on the media fans.  I've gone to Shore Leave for years
> and don't remember any major trouble going on there (and they've
> generally used the same hotel).
. . .
> Frankly, I started going to media-oriented cons because I didn't fit in
> with all the heavy-drinking writer types at "straight SF" cons.  At least
> that's how it was in the late 70s.  Maybe things have changed and I
> should give it another go--although by what I've read here, I doesn't
> look good.

I've been to 9 out of 10 Shore Leave's, all 5 Clippercons and many other
fan-run media cons (August Party, assorted Doctor Who and Blake's 7 cons)
in the northeast over the past 10 years. I've also tried Balticon, Unicon,
a World Con (ConStellation in Baltimore in '83), and Lunacon, representing
the literary SF side.  Out of all that, about 5 times as many media-SF as
literary-SF cons, the only ones that had problems with fire alarms and
pranks such as smoke-bombs in the elevator shafts were Balticon (it was
thrown out of the hotel that Shore Leave still uses, though I think it
recently moved back) and Lunacon.  I would think that if the problem was
the media fen, it would show up at least as often at media cons.

I go to cons for the panels, to buy zines in the dealers room and to talk
to friends.  None of this, by my way of thinking, involves drinking oneself
into oblivion, but I may just be weird.  There are plenty of room parties
at media cons but they usually involve sitting around eating munchies and
drinking soda while watching obscure foriegn SF on video.

Maybe some of you who have been going to cons longer than I can say whether
there is any truth to the following reason I've heard people give for the
separation of literature and media cons: Star Trek brought many more women
into fandom than had ever participated before and this made some long-time
participants nervous.  At cons I've been to the male/female ratio has
usually been close to 50/50 but of the over 200 zines in my collection,
probably less than 10 are edited by guys and most are entirely written and
illustrated by women. Also, media-based zines are 99% fan fiction while the
faanish SF zines are basicly articles.  How did this difference come about?

Mary Anne Espenshade
...!allegra!mimsy!aplcen!aplvax!mae 
mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 12 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 259

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Kurtz (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 12:22:38 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Deryni

lkirk@muddcs.UUCP (Laura Kirk) writes:
>What Katherine Kurtz does with those is establish a world of ``what if''.
>Once given those rules (that a certain form of magic, mostly what we call
>ESP, but some added ritual magic, exist), it is an almost strictly
>historical sort of novel.

  There is also a lot of very strong hinting that there may be divine
assistance involved. Check out the vision during Cinhil's death in "Camber
the Heretic" if you don't remember it.

> I read something, somewhere where someone (I seem to think Ursula Le
>Guin, but I really am not sure) put down this sort of fantasy, where a few
>words could be changed in some passages, and it could come from a
>mainstream novel (this compared to creating a completely unique world,
>with very little to do with the one we live in.)

Good heavens, this is terrible! A fantasy novel where the plot and
characters actually overshadow the gimmicks and gadgets! How could such a
thing happen? :-)

>I see the distinction, but enjoy both.  Any comments from the net?

   The Deryni books are among my favorites. However, they are an exception
to what seems to be the general trend in my collection. The thing that
appeals to me most is Kurtz's descriptive writing. Normally, I dislike
lengthy discussions of what everyone is wearing to affairs of state, but
she makes it fascinating. She describes enough detail to make it feel like
I'm actually witnessing each scene. Her character development is also
superb in most cases (the evil bishops were rather weak, I thought). The
various uses of Deryni powers don't overwhelm the plot, although at a few
points they do become pivotal. The blend of the fantastic and the realistic
is done to near-perfection (heck, I think it's perfect, but I'm not going
to make a statement that broad on the net!).

   Most of what I read seems to lean more toward the "wholly created world"
described a few paragraphs above. And while those worlds are enjoyable,
they often show more technical ability (Chalker's "Well World" and "Four
Lords of the Diamond" are good examples) than understanding of
characterization. Other than "Lammas Night," which is also mostly
historical (WWII era), does anyone know of any non-Deryni books by Kurtz? I
find it hard to imagine her writing in a non-medieval setting, but I'd like
to try it.  

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 88 05:07:00 GMT
From: ugcherk@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Deryni

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>   The Deryni books are among my favorites. However, they are an exception
>to what seems to be the general trend in my collection. The thing that
>appeals to me most is Kurtz's descriptive writing. Normally, I dislike
>lengthy discussions of what everyone is wearing to affairs of state, but
>she makes it fascinating. She describes enough detail to make it feel like
>I'm actually witnessing each scene. Her character development is also
>superb in most cases (the evil bishops were rather weak, I thought). The
>various uses of Deryni powers don't overwhelm the plot, although at a few
>points they do become pivotal. The blend of the fantastic and the
>realistic is done to near-perfection (heck, I think it's perfect, but I'm
>not going to make a statement that broad on the net!).

The Deryni books *used* to be among my favorites. Unfortunately, what I had
forgiven in the first 6 books was dwelt on even more in the 3 Kelson books
to the point where I ended up hating Kurtz's guts (not her guts personally,
but her guts as represented in the authority an author's voice carries in
his or her works of fiction). After 9 of those books, plus the _Deryni
Archives_, it becomes pretty obvious that Kurtz is just telling the same
story over and over and over and over.

And over.

You get to the point where you can predict ever "twist" in the plot miles
before it comes along.

Okay. But that is not the major cause of my sudden surge of distaste for
these novels. What really *bothers* me is the way Kurtz creates a master
race in the Deryni -- and to *her* they are indeed a master race, at least
within the context of the books, to the point where "mere" humans are to be
pitied, not to mention *used* -- and keeps lauding their wondrously
superior characteristics and bashing all those poor deprived mortals who
have to suffer so through existence without always knowing exactly what
everyone else around them is thinking all the time and without being able
to shield their minds from the hostile probes of others, etc., etc., etc.,
ad nauseum.

And what truly makes it repulsive is the way Kurtz is so down on "humans"
all the time as if she is really an elitist Deryni herself preaching the
subordination of "mortals" to the obviously more rightful rule of the
all-powerful god-like Deryni race.

The irony of this position is that we *know* that Kurtz is *not* a Deryni
but a human in "real life" (to the extent that we can "know" any such
thing). So we have a strange paradox where an author actually seems to be
arguing dogmatically and bombastically in support of a theory whereby the
special race she belongs to has as its God-given destiny the total
domination and control of a baldly inferior race -- thus sounding like a
narrow, racist bigot and, if I may use the word, *asshole* -- when, in
surprising truth, (surprising in the sense of the position she takes in
this argument -- not surprising with respect to what we believe her to be
in the "real world," namely, human, like us) she is actually a member of
the *inferior* race whose subservience she argues in favor of, both
explicitly and implicitly, and additionally with the use of many, many
demonstrations of Deryni superiority in all areas, throughout the books.

I fail to understand this. I know that "an author does not necessarily
believe the positions he or she espouses in his or her work." However,
Kurtz espouses this position so totally, continually, vehemently,
consistently, and redundantly in all of her Deryni novels that it almost
seems that she must mean *something* by it, and what it seems to lead to I
do not like.

An author cannot write in a position that is completely objectively
separatated from her own being. Every author necessarily puts something of
themselves into each and every one of their works. And what Kurtz puts in
is always the same: an argument for the superiority of a non-existent race
as if from the point of view of a member of that privileged race. Many of
you may argue that this is just a demonstration of Kurtz's total mastery of
her chosen artistic medium, but I would have to disagree because she does
not, to me, demonstrate any more than somewhat above-average competence as
a writer and producer of original ideas and insights into the human
condition.

I'm not sure where this leaves me. But I definitely did not like the three
Kelson novels for the above-stated reasons, and possibly others as well.  I
do not mean this posting as an attack on Kurtz as a person -- I do not know
her except through her work. Maybe she does not even realize the horrible
impressions she manages to convey to at least some of her readers through
the attitude -- untempered by *any* real opposing view presented by any
other than "fanatic Deryni-hating bishops and zealots and such" --
pervading her Deryni books. If this is the case, then I question her
perception of life and people in general. But this is shying away, I think,
from the facts we have at hand.

Is anyone else on the net troubled by these problems in the reading of
Kurtz's Deryni books? I'd like to hear what you think.

Oh, yeah. I'm back from summer vacation, to the chagrin of the many of you
who absolutely hate *my* guts and think I'm a total idiot, but hopefully to
the appreciation of at least a very few who find my postings from time to
time in agreement with their own opinions -- or at least an amusing means
of passing the time.

Kevin Cherkauer
...sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 88 05:51:41 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Deryni

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> [...]
>An author cannot write in a position that is completely objectively
>separated from her own being. Every author necessarily puts something of
>themselves into each and every one of their works. And what Kurtz puts in
>is always the same: an argument for the superiority of a non-existent race
>as if from the point of view of a member of that privileged race.  [...]

You raise a lot of points that, not having read the books, I don't feel
qualified to comment on.  However, there is something I think you
overlooked in your argument above.  Let me give you an example: back in the
days I frequented high schools, we held (in the context of a history class)
a mock-up version of a debate between an southerner and a northerner trying
to convince a new state-to-be to align itself with one of them.  I had the
doubtful honor of arguing for slavery, and I won the debate hands down by
the very simple expedient of choosing whatever arguments wrung my guts the
most.  The point is, that she (Kurtz) may be doing something similar,
arguing so convincingly precisely because *she passionately objects to the
moral position she is arguing*.  If that is the case, she would be trying
to force you to start objecting and think your own position through.  This
is exactly what has happened to you, so -- again, if this assumption is
indeed true -- she has succeeded very well indeed, and therefore written
very good (if possibly unpleasant) fiction.

I am not saying this is actually the case, but I do think it is a
possibility you should take into account.

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 88 21:59:54 GMT
From: jyamato@cory.berkeley.edu (YAMATO JON AYAO)
Subject: Re: Deryni

I was also bothered by the consistent superiority of Deryni to humans,
especially by the implication (made several times in the books) that a
Deryni can worship more fully than a human.  I found myself rather in
sympathy with the fanatical anti-Deryni groups, unexpectedly enough-- they
might be vile bigots, but they were correct in forseeing a dismal future
for their own race if Deryni were tolerated.  Despite Kurtz' genetic note
in one of the early books, evidence mounts that the offspring of Deryni and
humans are Deryni, which makes it almost a race survival issue.

Another series which at times raises the same issues, though not as
strongly in favor of the overrace, is the Sime/Gen series by Lorrah and
Lichtenberg.  The authors sometimes try to show a complementary equality
between Sime and Gen (Gens are much more like contemporary humans) but
frequently just make Simes superior in every way while expecting the reader
to sympathize with them.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 88 23:32:13 GMT
From: RWC102@psuvm.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Deryni

jyamato@cory.Berkeley.EDU (YAMATO JON AYAO) writes:
>I was also bothered by the consistent superiority of Deryni to humans,
>especially by the implication (made several times in the books) that a
>Deryni can worship more fully than a human.  I found myself rather in
>sympathy with the fanatical anti-Deryni groups, unexpectedly enough-- they
>might be vile bigots, but they were correct in forseeing a dismal future
>for their own race if Deryni were tolerated.  Despite Kurtz' genetic note
>in one of the early books, evidence mounts that the offspring of Deryni
>and humans are Deryni, which makes it almost a race survival issue.

Well, the Deryni _were_ genetically superior to humanity in one way.
However, they also had vulnerabilities to which humanity is not heir.  As
such, I could hardly view them as a threat.  Even Imre and his ilk never
attempted genocide, something which cannot be said for the human groups.

Personally, I've never been offended by the idea of a race superior to
humanity.  I think that sort of silliness should have died with Campbell,
as much as I credit Campbell as being one of the greatest editors of
science fiction ever and as being the most beneficial force on science
fiction ever.

I personally enjoyed the first two trilogies of the Deryni series, found
the third trilogy acceptable but heavily- padded, and haven't read any
further books in the series, and know not whether such have been published.

R  W F Clark
RWC102@psuvm.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 88 21:46:20 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Deryni

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>>   The Deryni books are among my favorites.
[You don't need to see all my words again, do you?]
>The Deryni books *used* to be among my favorites.
[Complaints about repetitive plot deleted.]

>Okay. But that is not the major cause of my sudden surge of distaste for
>these novels. What really *bothers* me is the way Kurtz creates a master
>race in the Deryni -- and to *her* they are indeed a master race, at least
>within the context of the books, to the point where "mere" humans are to
>be pitied, not to mention *used* -- and keeps lauding their wondrously
>superior characteristics and bashing all those poor deprived mortals who
>have to suffer so through existence without always knowing exactly what
>everyone else around them is thinking all the time and without being able
>to shield their minds from the hostile probes of others, etc., etc., etc.,
>ad nauseum.
>
>And what truly makes it repulsive is the way Kurtz is so down on "humans"
>all the time as if she is really an elitist Deryni herself preaching the
>subordination of "mortals" to the obviously more rightful rule of the all-
>powerful god-like Deryni race.

We seem to be reading the books in exactly the opposite way. What you
describe might've been true at the beginning of the Camber series, when the
evil Deryni ruled and treated humans like cattle. But in everything that
follows (chronologically) the Deryni attempt to treat humans as equals.
There are, of course, a large number of Deryni who use their powers in
unethical ways, but this adds greatly to the plot. If the good Deryni
weren't opposed by evil ones, then there would be little to challenge them.

But this doesn't mean that humans are helpless. Bishops Loris and Gorony
were "only" human, but they were certainly able to threaten the Deryni
royalty, as were Caitrin of Meara and her little brood.

Nowhere does Kurtz say anything resembling "preaching the subordination of
all 'mortals'". In fact, the lead characters, who are shown as infinitely
more noble than their enemies, are trying at all times to prevent
exploitation of non-Deryni humans. There are times when Kelson, Morgan,
etc. are forced to "read" humans against their will, but it is always done
as a last resort to insure the greater good.

Above all, it just makes *sense* that the Deryni are given the emphasis and
made to seem somewhat superior. After all, the books are about them, aren't
they? They're not called "The Human Chronicles".

I hope that anyone who has been wondering about the Deryni series will not
be put off by Kevin's description. Nor should you take my word for it.
These are two different interpretations by two different readers.  Read
them yourself and draw your own conclusions.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 17:11:11 GMT
From: ugcherk@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Deryni

RWC102@PSUVM (R. W. F. Clark) writes:
>Personally, I've never been offended by the idea of a race superior to
>humanity.

The issue here is What do you mean by "superior"? I will grant that the
Deryni had superior psychic-magical abilities, but Kurtz seems to imply
that they are just all around "superior." Period. For example, it is all
right for a Deryni to forcibly take over a human's mind and use that human
to whatever ends he deems "necessary." The sole excuse for this is,
well...hmmmmmm...well, Deryni *obviously* have this right (as long as they
are motivated by a desire to do what is "right," which is a laughable
qualification in such a scenario) because they are, well, *superior* and
therefore qualified to make all sorts of sweeping moral decisions not only
for themselves but for other people as well.

And of course, it is the *Deryni* who decide that the *Deryni* are the ones
qualified to make these kinds of decisions.

What's new in elitism?

Kevin Cherkauer
...sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 14 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 260

Today's Topics:

	  Books - Carey (2 msgs) & Crichton & Herbert (4 msgs) &
                  Kurtz (4 msgs) & Lafferty & Niven (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 11:55:53 GMT
From: chahn@iemisi.uucp (Chris Hahn)
Subject: Star Trek Novels

While attending a recent Star Trek convention, I picked up this flyer and
thought I'd pass on the information to the network.  It is a letter
campaign started by Ruth Susmarski PO Box 2177, Des Plains, Il 60017.  If
you want further information you might want to contact her...Here is a
"copy" of the flyer.

  Join the campaign to make Diane Carey's giant Startrek novel into a 
  Television mini-series or movie.......

		       STAR TREK:  THE LEGEND BEGINS
        A time before stardates. And YOUR privilege to go there!

  An Open Letter to STAR TREK Fandom:

  Are there other fans out there, like me, for whom the characters (Robert
  April, George Kirk, Drake Reed, Sarah Poole, T'Cael) in Diane Carey's
  latest STAR TREK advanture, FINAL FRONTIER, came vividly to life when you
  read her novel?  If so, can't you just envision their coming to life "for
  real?!"  Say, for instance, in a Made-For-TV movie?  Or better yet, a
  mini-series?

  In her novel, Diane Carey gives us a welcome richness of character,
  intensity of plot and superb interaction of the multi-dimensional
  individuals to whom we are introduced, with a perfect blend and balance
  of conflict and camaraderie.....an awesome introduction to an untested,
  state-of-the-art and, as yet unnamed starship......and the seeds of the
  very philosophy upon which STAR TREK, as we know it, is based.

  In light of the success of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION's future vision
  and a realistic knowledge that additional 'classic' STAR TREK will be in
  the form of a limited number of feature films, why not take a flesh and
  blood look at the beginnings of the legend?  The very basis and
  groundwork of all we have enjoyed and grown to love over 20+ years....
  and all that is yet to come?

  If you were moved by this novel and these characterizations, as I was; if
  your curiosity and desire to get to know more about STAR TREK's roots was
  aroused; and, if you would love to see it all come to life on screen,
  please take pen/typewriter/computer/etc. in hand and send a letter today
  to:

      MR. HARVE BENNETT  and/or  MR. JOHN SYMES
                                 SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT/
                                 NETWORK PROGRAMMING
      c/o PARAMOUNT PICTURES CORP.
          5555 Melrose Avenue
          Los Angeles, Ca  90038

  Thank-you in advance for your optimism and support of this endeavor!
  Please pass the word on to your friends!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 22:24:34 GMT
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Novels

chahn@iemisi.UUCP (Chris Hahn) writes:
>  Join the campaign to make Diane Carey's giant Startrek novel into a 
>  Television mini-series or movie.......

DIANE CAREY!!?!  Creatress of Lt. Piper?  Writer of Ghost Ship?
ACK!  PHFFFTH!  GAK!
Do you want to destroy Star Trek forever ? (1/2 :-)
Final Frontier wasn't as horrid as her other books, but movie-ize or
tv-ize a deserving author like Diane Duane before Carey.

Rich Carreiro
ARPA: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu
UUCP: {wherever}!mit-eddie!mit-athena!rlcarr
BITNET: rlcarr%athena.mit.edu@MITVMA.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 15:05:00 GMT
From: shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Sphere

I found SPHERE refreshing for two reasons--

The setting and mood are well handled, and more importantly the characters
are not typical science fiction characters.  Also, the main character is
not the youngest, smartest, or strongest of the bunch.

Though I don't think SPHERE is a great book, it revitalized my declining
interest in science fiction.

Peter Shirley
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
UUCP: {pur-ee,convex,inhp4}!uiucdcs!shirley
ARPA: shirley@cs.uiuc.edu
CSNET: shirley%uiuc@csnet-relay

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 88 14:03:55 GMT
From: mih@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Michael Heard)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
>> [ We're talking about Dune and sequels ]
>>I have heard from various sources (including Herbert himself) that the
>>first three books of the Dune series were plotted out before Dune was
>>published.  [...]
>Just to show you that tastes differ, I think, and most of my friends
>agree, that Dune is very good, Messiah is absolute trash, and Children
>kind of OK.  God Emperor isn't worthy of being used as toilet paper, and
>that's where I gave up, so don't about the rest.

I regard this Dune discussion as absolutely amazing! Am I the only person
on the net who has read and enjoyed the last three novels in the Dune
series? Or am I the only person to have read them at all?

One of the annoying things about almost any series (and one Frank Herbert
avoided with the final three) is the way they continually churn around the
same planet(s), characters, and/or plots (or what have you). 'God Emperor
of Dune', 'Heretics of Dune', and 'Chapter House Dune' all take earlier
ideas and expand upon them into new areas without losing the 'feel' of the
original. The plot is still as intricate as before, with wheels turning
within wheels. The characters are as diverse and as well written as before,

[slight spoiler coming]

and where he does use previous characters from before (in the form of
gholas), he enlarges upon them.

That's my two penn'thworth. Anyone else going to defend the series?

Mike Heard

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 88 06:35:18 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

mih@cs.nott.ac.uk (Michael Heard) writes:
>One of the annoying things about almost any series (and one Frank Herbert
>avoided with the final three) is the way they continually churn around the
>same planet(s), characters, and/or plots (or what have you). 'God Emperor
>of Dune', 'Heretics of Dune', and 'Chapter House Dune' all take earlier
>ideas and expand upon them into new areas without losing the 'feel' of the
>original. The plot is still as intricate as before, with wheels turning
>within wheels. The characters are as diverse and as well written as
>before,

Well, maybe yes.  I have not read HoD or CHD, so I won't talk about them.
When I started GEoD, I predicted the exact ending within the first 30
pages, and every major plot twist was clearly visible well in advance, just
as it easy to predict the way the characters were going to react.  In other
words, it may have been marvelously designed (I don't think so, but for the
sake of the argument), but it was *BORING*.  I don't read boring books when
I have a choice.

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 16:57:54 GMT
From: bungia!ns!ddb@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

mih@cs.nott.ac.uk (Michael Heard) writes:
>I regard this Dune discussion as absolutely amazing! Am I the only person
>on the net who has read and enjoyed the last three novels in the Dune
>series? Or am I the only person to have read them at all?

  I haven't read anything past Children of.  Based on some of the comments
on the net, I may possibly try some of the later ones some day.  Does
anybody out there think Children of has the feel of the original?  I
thought it was boring, boring, boring, and had no feel at all.  That's why
I stopped there.

David Dyer-Bennet
...!{rutgers!dayton | amdahl!ems | uunet!rosevax}!umn-cs!ns!ddb
ddb@Lynx.MN.Org
...{amdahl,hpda}!bungia!viper!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 00:15:11 GMT
From: rjc@aipna.edinburgh.ac.uk (Richard Caley)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>When I started GEoD, I predicted the exact ending within the first 30
>pages, and every major plot twist was clearly visible well in advance,

Not really surprising when the central character is prescient.  It isn't,
after all, a thriller. Being able to predict the plot is not necessarily a
bad point, the book is not a story in the simple sense. It is a portrait of
one character. Thus -

>just as it easy to predict the way the characters were going to react.

A tribute yet ( 1/2 :-) )

If you can't tell in what way a central character is going to react when
that much print had been spent then _that_ would be a bad book.

>  In other words, it may have been marvelously designed (I don't think so,
>but for the sake of the argument), but it was *BORING*.

I didn't find it so, but then it isn't exactly exciting either.  Dune never
was space opera.

rjc@uk.ac.ed.aipna
rjc%uk.ac.ed.aipna@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 17:24:45 GMT
From: ugcherk@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Deryni and Arthur Clarke

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>Nowhere does Kurtz say anything resembling "preaching the subordination of
>all 'mortals'". In fact, the lead characters, who are shown as infinitely
>more noble than their enemies, are trying at all times to prevent
>exploitation of non-Deryni humans. There are times when Kelson, Morgan,
>etc. are forced to "read" humans against their will, but it is always done
>as a last resort to insure the greater good.

This is the key point. They are never "forced" to read humans against their
wills. They decide for *themselves* that the "greater good" demands it.
They are the self-appointed judge and jury *in an area where they should
have no jurisdiction whatsoever*, namely the free will and mental privacy
of other people. Moreover, I do not agree with the assumption that the
"greater good," however you determine that, is always an automatic excuse
for what would otherwise be morally reprehensible actions. It may be that
it is *never* an excuse. This is much too large a philosophical problem for
the purposes of this posting. I just want to point out that Kurtz offends
me most of all in her *assumption* that it *is* always a reasonable excuse
and in her implicit *assumption* that we, the readers, agree with her.

Just like Arthur Clarke manages to offend in just about everything I have
read of his when he takes totally irrelevant shots at religion in general:
"Obviously, in this day in age, anyone who believes in anything
supernatural that cannot be verified by scientific observation is an utter
and total fool," to paraphrase his philosophy. This kind of thing is often
stated *explicitly* in his works, and he operates on the assumption that
the enlightened reader absolutely *must* agree with this because it is, to
*him*, so obvious. Fortunately, it is not the central focus of novel after
novel after novel of his, as Kurtz's "greater good" assumption is for her
novels.

Kevin Cherkauer
...sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 15:18:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Deryni

I didn't have quite the same objections that Mr. Cherkauer had, but I did
have some problems with the Camber trilogy (on the whole I enjoyed the
Deryni trilogy, and have not read the Kelson books).

In several ways Camber was an admirable person, but I was quite offended at
his habit of forcing others to do what he wanted him to do.  He frequently
resorted to deceiptful subterfuge or blatant coercion to corrall others
into his plan.  That this practice should be the extension of a devout
man's beliefs was particularly annoying to me: an acknowledgement of and
respect for each person's free will is a large part of my personal
christian values, so I strongly objected to this man being held up to me as
a saint.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 21:07:00 GMT
From: mark@inmet.inmet.com
Subject: Re: Deryni (was Re: Please Educate Me A

>Does anyone know of any non-Deryni books by Kurtz? I find it hard to
>imagine her writing in a non-medieval setting, but I'd like to try it.

She also wrote a book called "The Legacy of the Lehr".  It takes place in
the future, and the setting is on an interstellar passenger ship.  To me it
appears that this book is part of a larger series of as yet unwritten
books, which will explain some of the dangling subplots and references.

Mark Hertel
...!ihnp4!inmet!mark

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 18:27:22 GMT
From: jyamato@cory.berkeley.edu (YAMATO JON AYAO)
Subject: Re: Deryni

The reason that I said that, despite the genetic note, the offspring of
human and Deryni are Deryni is that I can't find a counterexample in the
books.  Perhaps someone more familiar with them can supply one.  In
particular,

**SPOILER!**

one of the main Deryni male characters turns out to have an illegitimate
Deryni son, and no one is surprised at this, though X-linked genes are not
transmitted male to male.  The child's mother must have been Deryni
also--was this mentioned?

Unless Jehana was purebred (seems unlikely) Kelson was only 50% likely to
be Deryni--and for plot purposes this would have been quite interesting, as
everyone would have assumed he *was* when Jehana was uncovered.

There are genes in fruit flies and mice that are transmitted in this
fashion (tending to appear in all offspring) and unless they are highly
disadvantaged they will sweep the entire population.

Put yourself in the position of a human who has been abused by Deryni in
some fashion.  He will not find the argument that the difference is a mere
one gene comforting; nor do I think that the idea that his children may be
Deryni if he is seduced by one of the "master race" a pleasant one.  He
will probably think of this as having his children corrupted, not improved.
This may not be a logical attitude, but it is a very natural one.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 23:08:21 GMT
From: steyn@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: Lafferty and Sladek

baum@tamvxocn.BITNET writes: 
>Having only recently joined the group, and having no desire to plow
>through the archives, I wish to invite comments on a couple of my favorite
>authors.  The first is R. A. Lafferty.  My personal favorites of his are
>the novel "The Annals of Klepsis" and the short-story collection "999
>Grandmothers".  You might say that he tends to lean more towards the
>fantasy side of the field than the science fiction side.  Occasionally he
>seems to me to be a North American and slightly less academic version of
>Jorge Luis Borges.  He is witty and his ideas of just what constitutes
>reality are somewhat remindful of Philip K. Dick.  Neither his novels or
>short stories have the usual definite resolution of everything in the
>universe on the last page.
>
>Anyway, does anybody else out there read (and possibly enjoy) Lafferty?
 
I also really enjoy Lafferty's stories, although the ending of _Annals_
really bothered me (more than his other unresolved endings).  Since you
enjoyed it so much, do you mind telling me any speculations as to what
happened?
  On a related note, new readers of his stories might be a tad confused.  I
really was knocked for a loop by _The Devil is Dead_, the first book of his
that I read, even though it is now one of my favorite books.  So I'd
suggest reading _The Reefs of Earth_ (particularly if you liked the
_Odyssey_) or _900 Grandmothers_ before his other works.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 88 00:22:05 GMT
From: bsu-cs!crusader@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Erick L. King)
Subject: The Man-Kzin Wars

Has any one out there read this book???  If so, what are your opinions on
it.  Is it worth buying???  I'm a devoted fan of Niven and have been
wavering on buying it because it's not written by him.  I appreciate any
help the Net can give me on this one.

Erick L. King
8408 N. Glacier Dr.
Muncie In. 47303
UUCP: crusader@bsu-cs.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 13:21:54 GMT
From: ad5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: The Man-Kzin Wars

crusader@bsu-cs.UUCP (Erick L. King) writes:
>Has any one out there read this book???  If so, what are your
>opinions on it.  Is it worth buying???  I'm a devoted fan of Niven and
>have been wavering on buying it because it's not written by him.  I
>appreciate any help the Net can give me on this one.

Hey!, _The Man-Kzin Wars_ is a great book...get it! I too am a Niven fan,
and have readeverything of his, including _Down in Flames_...
coincidentally, _Ringworld Engineers_ was my first too...

Colin Smiley
ARPA: ad5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
BITNET: DEKKARD@PURCCVM
UUCP: pur-ee!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!ad5

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 14 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 261

Today's Topics:

	     Books - McLoughlin & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Palmer &
                     Resnick & Robinson & Shupp (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 17:24:28 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@dgcad.sv.dg.com (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: "Toolmaker Koan": review, spoilers

Toolmaker Koan by John McLoughlin [**]
     Baen Books, September 1988, paperback, 3.50, 344pg

A flawed book with an interesting idea.  It answers the Fermi Paradox (you
know... the "where are all the aliens?" paradox) in one of the usual ways:
all toolmaking species destroy themselves before they can expand into
interstellar space.  The idea is that predators of some form are going to
develop intelligence first, and eventually the predatory and competitive
instincts will destroy the species as the effects of aggression are
amplified by technology to have consequences beyond the ability of these
instincts to evaluate.

There are several flaws.  Perhaps the worst is that this isn't a very
persuasive "natural law".  Running a close second is the fact that nowhere
in the book is the "toolkmaker koan" (as the author calls this law)
actually presented *as* *a* *koan*.  This was most annoying, because I was
looking forward to casting this point of view into a zen paradox.  Further,
the way the characters invoked the so-called koan to explain
any-and-everything, usually by having one character look meaningfully at
another and say simply "Toolmaker Koan", quickly made me want to take the
next character to act in this way and beat them with a stick.  (Hey, maybe
there's some zen here after all?)

(From here on, there be spoilers.)

But perhaps the worst problem is the ending of the story.  Like the PDQ
Bach opera "Carmen Ghia", the story winds up with everything blowing up in
the faces of our protagonists "and then everybody dies".  Not satisfied
with this ending (too sad, don't y'know), everybody then jumps up and in an
epilogue sings several choruses of "HappyEnding, HappyEnding,
HappyEnding...", and everybody lives happily ever after.  Very lame, to say
the least.

Despite this, the book has an interesting idea.  It takes the usual "what
if the dinosaurs had developed intelligence" scenario, and makes it real in
*our* world rather than an alternate reality.  The dinosaurs *did* have an
intelligent species.  But it destroyed itself 65 million years ago, using
space-based warfare, ultimately "throwing rocks" from the asteroid belt,
leaving the iridium-rich layer everybody has heard so much about.

After all, what would one expect to find as evidence of such an event?
Well, a great extinction event, with a nuclear-or-asteroid-impact winter at
the time of the cataclysm.  It explains why the extinction started before
the impact as the toolmaking species develops technology and starts to
monopolize the biosphere, just as we are causing minor extinctions now.  A
minor disapointment to me is that this isn't generalized into a
Nemesis-like hypothesis, where toolmaking species arise roughly every
N-million years, neatly accounting for many major extinctions at one swell
foop and providing a reason for not finding a celestial Nemesis to
synchronize with them.  The Nemesis is within.

Anyway, I found the book to be good food for thought, but only fair when
considered as an entertaining story.  A 7,000 word essay would have suited
me better.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 16:58:25 GMT
From: db@lfcs.edinburgh.ac.uk (Dave Berry)
Subject: Re: Moorcock

pae@cos.com (Paul A. Ebersman) writes:
>From what I have read, there isn't a book written by Moorcock that isn't
>loosely connected to the Eternal Champions series.

On the other hand, the links can get pretty tenuous.  If people are looking
for the swords & sorcery Eternal Champion stuff, they might be disappointed
by the Jerry Cornelius books.  The series that directly involve the Eternal
Champion are the Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon & Erekose series.

>NOTE: the British editions of Elric (not reviewed by author) are:
>The Dreaming City
>The Singing Citadel
>The Sleeping Sorceress
>The Stealer of Souls

Most of the British editions contain the same material as the American, but
in the order they were published rather than ordered by the internal
chronology.  I think the new names are standard over here these days too.
Sailor on the Seas of Fate, Elric of Melnibone, Stormbringer & Elric at the
End of Time have the same name in both countries.  I'm not sure what The
Dreaming City is.

>ERIKOSE: 
>The Eternal Champion
>The Silver Warriors (Pheonix in Obsidian)
>The Dragon in the Sword

>The Champion of Garatharm
>The Quest for Tanelorn

The last two books, from the Count Brass series, are also part of the
Erekose series (or at least, they used to be!).

>Legends from the End of Time
>A Messiah at the End of Time (The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming) 

The stories from these books were first published in New Worlds Quarterly,
issues 7-10.

>JERRY CORNELIUS: 
>The Final Programme
>A Cure for Cancer
>The English Assassin
>The Condition of Muzak
>The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius
>The Entropy Tango
>The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th Century
>The Alchemist's Question

Add The Nature of the Catastrophe.  This might be JC stories by various
authors, not just by Moorcock.  I think The Opium General is also JC
stories.

>MAXIM ARTUROVICH:
>Byzamtium Endures	[sic]
>The Laughter of Carthage

These feature several characters from the JC series.

>OTHERS:
>The Time of the Hawklords (by Michael Butterworth based on MM)
>Queens of Deliria (by Michael Butterworth based on MM)

These form a series (they were supposedly the first two books of a
trilogy).  They feature the alternate personae of the (then) members of
Hawkwind.

>The Entropy Tango

Delete this from this category - you correctly moved it into the JC series.

Add:
My Adventures in the Third World War.
Sojan (juvenile).	(that's how it's listed on frontispieces)
Moorcock's Book of Martyrs	(short stories; MM might be just the editor)
Letters from Hollywood (?)	(non-fiction)
The Opium General	(if it isn't a JC book (see above)).

Sorry some of this is vague; it's been a long time since I've read some of
these, and some I haven't read at all.  I hope this is helpful.

Dave Berry
db@lfcs.ed.ac.uk	

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 00:26:44 GMT
From: rjc@aipna.edinburgh.ac.uk (Richard Caley)
Subject: Re: Moorcock

db@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) writes:
>I think The Opium General is also JC stories.

`The Opium General ' is a collection of stories. It contains
 `The Alchemists Question' - a JC novela also some stories about the third
world war, probably some or all of those in `My Adventures in ...'  but I
haven't read that.

rjc@uk.ac.ed.aipna
rjc%uk.ac.ed.aipna@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 88 12:58:47 GMT
From: linus!bs@spdcc.com (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Palmer

What became of David Palmer's sequel to 'Threshhold'??

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 88 22:28:23 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Review of Ivory. M.Resnick. Small spoilers.

>One quibble. On the jacket, the novel is described as Resnick's first
>hardcover publication.  Since I own two hardcovers of the Velvet Comet
>series, I found this claim jarring.

I asked Mike about this. Here's his response.

From:   RESNICK     

I also did a hardcover sf novel in 1967 for Don Grant -- the illustrious
GODDESS OF GANYMEDE, the mere mention of which makes me wince and run for
cover -- but Tor is semi-correct: this was my first mass-market sf
hardcover; the other 3 were all limited-edition specialty versions. (It is
not, however, my first mass market hardcover ever; just my first sf one.)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 02:00:43 GMT
From: brian@radio.uucp (Brian Glendenning)
Subject: "Time Pressure" by Spider Robinson

Can anyone tell me if Spider Robinson's latest book is any good (I hope I
got the title right above). While I've enjoyed his shorter stuff, I have
mixed feelings about his novels.

Please send me email, and I'll post a summary here. Thanks.

Brian Glendenning
Radio astronomy
University of Toronto
brian@radio.astro.toronto.edu
uunet!utai!radio!brian
glendenn@utorphys.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 00:31:07 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: Soldier of Another Fortune by Mike Shupp

I, like the majority of readers of this group, leave the book reviewing to
the "professionals," but when it comes to a book that really gets me angry,
I'm afraid that I just have to speak out.

"Soldier of Another Fortune" by Mike Shupp (Ballantine, August 1988) is the
third book in what now appears to be a four book series called "The Destiny
Makers."  Books One and Two, "With Fate Conspire" and "Morning of
Creation," deal mainly with the adventures of Tim Harper, a 20th century
Vietnam vet, propelled into the far future to a civilization called the
Fifth Era.  For some reason, I thought I was looking forward to this third
book in the series, but after reading it, I can't believe that the first
two could have been good enough to make me want to read another.  My memory
must be frazzed.

"Soldier of Another Fortune" abandons following Tim Harper for over half
the book, introducing a thoroughly despicable new character known by a
multitude of names throughout the book (as is Harper), but most often
referred to as Kalm.  Kalm is a telepath, a Teep, but seems to use his
power mostly to verify what male misogynists have long assumed -- that
women want to be sexually abused.  But this is SF, so I don't want to waste
words summarizing the many abusive and anti-female scenes in the book, but
will mention that Kalm likes his women with no arms and no legs.  (Sorry,
but it's in the book, graphically enough.)

On to the story.

The first two books were about time travel and it's uses toward changing
the outcome of a war in the Fifth Era.  If you were interested in this
story line, there's no need to read this book.  The characters are stuck in
a single time in a feudal society where they maneuver to affect the outcome
of a single battle.  I found it not interesting in the least.  In fact, I
did something that I rarely do: I paged through one third of the book.

A great trick the author uses to add some pages to the book: Run through a
scene once (and take 50 pages or so), have one of the characters go back a
little in time and make a change, then play the resulting new scene (and
double your page count!).  Wow, does that make interesting reading, or
what!?

I've got a BIG (really) spoiler at the end of this article, so let me
summarize now, though it's probably not necessary.  This book is boring and
offensive.  It does not advance the story of Tim Harper in the Fifth Era.
On the Leeper scale, it gets a -4 in my book, though I would have rather
not read it and thus not rated it.  Please, bring on the Gargantusaurs now,
I'm ready...

The SPOILER follows.

Remember what I said about going back in time to cause part of the story to
be retold, but differently the second time?  Remember how I said that Kalm
was the major character of the third book?  Well, in the last few pages,
Tim Harper is killed!  Don't worry.  Kylene (the Teep girl from the Second
Era) goes back a little bit and kills Kalm, thus saving Tim.  In other
words, the entire book never happened!!!!!

Is that unbelievable???

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.ray.com
{decuac,gatech,necntc,sun,uiucdcs,ukma}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 88 20:02:37 GMT
From: seanf@sco.com (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: Soldier of Another Fortune by Mike Shupp

Previous warning: there might be some spoilers later in this thing.  Sorry
if you don't wish to read them.

gmp@rayssd.RAY.COM (Greg Paris) writes:
>"Soldier of Another Fortune" by Mike Shupp (Ballantine, August 1988) is
>the third book in what now appears to be a four book series called "The
>Destiny Makers."  Books One and Two, "With Fate Conspire" and "Morning of
>Creation," deal mainly with the adventures of Tim Harper, a 20th century
>Viet Nam vet, propelled into the far future to a civilization called the
>Fifth Era.
>
>"Soldier of Another Fortune" abandons following Tim Harper for over half
>the book, introducing a thoroughly despicable new character known by a
>multitude of names throughout the book (as is Harper), but most often
>referred to as Kalm.  Kalm is a telepath, a Teep, but seems to use his
>power mostly to verify what male misogynists have long assumed -- that
>women want to be sexually abused.  But this is SF, so I don't want to
>waste words summarizing the many abusive and anti-female scenes in the
>book, but will mention that Kalm likes his women with no arms and no legs.
>(Sorry, but it's in the book, graphically enough.)

Ok: First of all, I liked the books.  I even requested that others who'd
read the book respond (electronically) to me, but nobody did 8-(.  Anyway,
for your (and others) edification, the 'Teeps' (and everybody else, except
for Harper) are *not* human.  They have, if I remember correctly, about 46
Chromosonal pairs (but I don't have my copy of _With_Fate_Conspire_ handy,
so I can't verify it), and they also look forward to lives of about 300
years or so.  Oh, and, incidently, the women have breeding seasons.  The
men don't.  When a women is 'in her time,' no man can resist her (and she
can resist no man); otherwise, the men still have their usual sex drives,
but, for the most part, don't try to have sex with women who are not 'in
her time' (it's used a couple of times in the book, ok?).  The only thing I
can think of that resembles what Greg is talking about is the fact that the
society has prostitutes, who have sex even when they are not 'in her time.'

>On to the story.  The first two books were about time travel and it's uses
>toward changing the outcome of a war in the Fifth Era.  If you were
>interested in this story line, there's no need to read this book.  The
>characters are stuck in a single time in a feudal society where they
>maneuver to affect the outcome of a single battle.  I found it not
>interesting in the least.  In fact, I did something that I rarely do: I
>paged through one third of the book.

The previous two books also went back and forth between various times
(although the second did that less than the first).  What Greg doesn't
mention is that this battle concerns someone about whom legends are still
told, 40 or 50 thousand years later, and this battle itself is of
monumental importance (to the future, not necessarily to the war being
fought).

>I've got a BIG (really) spoiler at the end of this article, so let me
>summarize now, though it's probably not necessary.  This book is boring
>and offensive.  It does not advance the story of Tim Harper in the Fifth
>Era.  On the Leeper scale, it gets a -4 in my book, though I would have
>rather not read it and thus not rated it.  Please, bring on the
>Gargantusaurs now, I'm ready...

I happened to like the book.  Yes, it was long, but I like long books (I
read quickly, and this book took me more than 5 or 6 hours to read.  If you
read at a more normal [i.e., non-Evelyn-Wood pace 8-)], it might take about
a week or so).  I didn't think it was boring, but, then, I've also been
waiting for the book ever since I was given the first two in the series...

>The SPOILER follows
>
>Remember what I said about going back in time to cause part of the story
>to be retold, but differently the second time?  Remember how I said that
>Kalm was the major character of the third book?  Well, in the last few
>pages, Tim Harper is killed!  Don't worry.  Kylene (the Teep girl from the
>Second Era) goes back a little bit and kills Kalm, thus saving Tim.  In
>other words, the entire book never happened!!!!!  Is that unbelievable???

Ok, it might make you unhappy.  However, Tim Harper is *not* the main
character in this book.  Believe it or not, this book is about *Kylene*,
and the book mostly traces her development in the time she stays whenever
they are.  Harper doesn't have a minor part, true, nor does Kalm, but they
are not the main focus of the story.  The book also provides more insight
into Harper, at least into how he feels about certain things, but he is
still not the major characters (if I repeat it enough, will you believe it?
8-)).  BTW, I'm glad I interpreted the ending correctly; it was about 2AM
when I finished reading the book, and I wouldn't have sworn that it was
dark when I was done 8-)...

Sean Eric Fagan
(408) 458-1422 
seanf@sco.UUCP 

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 14 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 262

Today's Topics:

		Books - Quick & Cordwainer Smith (7 msgs) &
                        Stasheff (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 16:00:00 GMT
From: bobbitt@lezah.dec.com (Skylarking)
Subject: Dreams of Flesh and Sand, by W.T. Quick

I just read a book that I thought was particularly good, not only in its
plot, but also in its style.  It's called "Dreams of Flesh and Sand", and
it's by W.T. Quick (who came on the writing scene fairly recently).  It's
sort of in the "cyberpunk" type genre, resembling the world of
blade-runner, and the concept of humans and machines (hardware, software,
wetware) combining.  It's set in a future world where corporations are only
as good as their databanks, which consist of both electronics and neural
cell-type masses.  I like his descriptive imagery, and the plot convulses
several times during the book - so just when you think you know what's
going to happen, it turns out something different's happening entirely.  I
like that in a book - keeps me guessing.

Has anyone else heard of this author, or know of anything else by him?

Jody Bobbitt
Bobbitt%lezah.dec@decwrl.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 88 01:55:17 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Cordwainer Smith

frodo@bradley.UUCP writes:
>My favorite story of how "hyperspace" was discovered is by Cordwainer
>Smith...  but once again I'm stuck without the book to find it....
>Um....lessee.....Something about the Glorious Journey of Captain Somebody
>or other, who traveled through space without a ship and landed naked
>somewhere where they put him in an asylum 'cos he was crazy and
>transformed into something more than human....

Smith originally wrote ``The Colonel Came Back from Nothing at All'' about
the discovery of hyperspace.  He later rewrote the story as ``Drunkboat'',
and set it much later in his universe.

You also half-remembered the title of ``The Crime and the Glory of
Commander Suzdal'', another really fine story.

Richard Welty
GE R&D, K1-5C39
Niskayuna, New York
518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
{uunet,philabs,rochester}!steinmetz!welty

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 88 16:28:57 GMT
From: roseann@eeg.eeg.com (White)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Smith

frodo@bradley.UUCP writes:
>My favorite story of how "hyperspace" was discovered is by Cordwainer
>Smith...  but once again I'm stuck without the book to find it....
>Um....lessee.....Something about the Glorious Journey of Captain Somebody
>or other, who traveled through space without a ship and landed naked
>somewhere where they put him in an asylum 'cos he was crazy and
>transformed into something more than human....

Cordwainer Smith, one of my favorite sci-fi writers also wrote a story
about the astronauts who fly in hyperspace.  They are actually sort of
zombies and need enormous voltages to be able to behave as human beings.
The name is a pseudonym for a Japanese-american history teacher.  Harlan
Ellison used the pen name Cordwainer Bird, in his honor.

Roseann

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 16:42:23 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Smith

roseann@eeg.UUCP (White) writes:
>Cordwainer Smith, one of my favorite sci-fi writers also wrote a story
>about the astronauts who fly in hyperspace.  They are actually sort of
>zombies and need enormous voltages to be able to behave as human beings.
>The name is a psuedonym(sp?)  for a Japanese american history teacher.

Are you referring, perhaps, to "Scanners Live in Vain"? I read it recently
in "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Volume I," but I don't remember
whether it was Smith. It fits the general description you give, but I don't
know whether it specifically was about hyperspace.

Synopsis/spoilers below:

   Space travel causes unbearable pain and sensory malfunction.  Therefore,
only criminals are sent to work/fight in space (let the ACLU get a load of
that one!). To tend to their health, technicians known as "scanners" are
sent with them. Scanners are specially rigged cyborgs who have no normal
senses except for sight. They monitor and treat the normal humans in space.
They monitor themselves as well, since a scanner does not otherwise know
how he feels.

   The "enormous voltages to behave as human beings" sounds like the
"Cranching Wire" used by scanners. This wire allows them temporarily to
have normal human sensation, but prolonged cranching is dangerous.

   The plot revolves around a scientist who has found a way to avoid the
Pain of Space. One Scanner, who does not wish to become obsolete, goes to
kill him, at the behest of a scanners' council, while another (the lead
character) tries to stop him. At the end, it is revealed that the process
which converts humans to scanners is now reversible, and they all live
happily ever after.  

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 02:38:49 GMT
From: welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Samith

roseann@eeg.UUCP (White) writes:
>Cordwainer Smith, one of my favorite sci-fi writers also wrote a story
>about the astronauts who fly in hyperspace.  They are actually sort of
>zombies and need enormous voltages to be able to behave as human beings.

This sounds roughly like ``Scanners Live in Vain'', Cordwainer Smith's
first major published story (``War No. 81-Q'' was Smith's first published
story, appearing in a publication of the Washington D.C. public school
system in 1928.)

>The name is a pseudonym for a Japanese-american history teacher.  Harlan
>Ellison *used the pen name Cordwainer Bird, in his honor.

Well, uh, Ellison (who has great respect for Cordwainer Smith) uses
``Cordwainer Bird'' on TV and Film projects that go bad.

stevev@uoregon.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) writes:
>The stories are Cordwainer Smith's "On the Sand Planet", "On the Gem
>Planet", "On the Storm Planet", and "Three to a Given Star", referred to
>as his Casher O'Neill series, after the main character (who, in typical
>Smith/Linebarger form, is named after a street in Cairo, Qasr el Nil).
>The last story is really only incidentally connected with the first three,
>which form a reasonably well-connected narrative.  All four stories are
>collected in _Quest of the Three Worlds_, published by Del Rey.  I
>wouldn't call it Smith's best work, not being as good as _Norstrilia_ or
>the stories in _The Best of Cordwainer Smith_, but it's still more
>pleasant than simply being a book that completes my collection of Smith's
>science fiction.  (How sad that all of his science fiction fits into four
>paperbacks . . . at least it's all high quality.)

These things are all relative.  While _Norstrilia_ and some of the short
stories are much better, _Quest of the Three Worlds_ is still pretty damn
good.  My own personal favorite Smith stories are ``The Crime and the Glory
of Commander Suzdal'', ``Golden the Ship Was -- Oh! Oh! Oh!'', ``The Dead
Lady of Clown Town'', ``Under Old Earth'', ``Drunkboat'', and ``Down to a
Sunless Sea''.

There are three existing stories which do not appear in the collections
from Del Rey.  ``Queen of the Afternoon'' appeared in Galaxy, Vol. 39 No.
4.  It was a little below average as a Smith story.  ``Down to a Sunless
Sea'' appeared in the October 1975 issue of F&SF, and was reprinted in #5
of Terry Carr's Best SF collection.  ``Himself in Anachron'' has never been
published to the best of my knowledge.  Supposedly it is to appear in the
last Dangerous Visions collection, should that ever become a reality.
Incidentially, ``Himself in Anachron'' apparently was written at about the
same time as ``Scanners Live in Vain'' but failed to find a buyer at that
point in time.

Apparently there are other stories which exist in incomplete form in
Smith's notebooks.  Smith's widow at one time proposed to complete these
stories for publication.  This is how ``Down to a Sunless Sea'' and ``Queen
of the Afternoon'' came to see the light of day, some 12 years after
Smith's death.

Richard Welty
GE R&D, K1-5C39
Niskayuna, New York
518-387-6346
welty@ge-crd.ARPA
uunet!steinmetz!welty

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 17:59:33 GMT
From: cjh@petsd.ccur.com (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Smith

roseann@eeg.UUCP writes:
>Cordwainer Smith, one of my favorite sci-fi writers also wrote a story
>about the astronauts who fly in hyperspace.  They are actually sort of
>zombies and need enormous voltages to be able to behave as human beings.

   "Scanners Live in Vain"

>The name is a pseudonym for a Japanese-american history teacher.

???  His "real" name was Paul Eric [Erik?] Linebarger.  I think he worked
for the State Department.

I guess a REAL name would have to be an ontonym as contrasted with a
pseudonym.

Regards,
Chris
...!rutgers!petsd!cjh            

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 88 17:40:27 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Samith

welty@steinmetz.ge.com (richard welty) writes:
> There are three existing stories which do not appear in the collections
> from Del Rey.  ``Queen of the Afternoon'' appeared in Galaxy, Vol. 39 No.
> 4.  It was a little below average as a Smith story.

"Queen of the Afternoon" is in "The Instrumentality of Mankind from Del
Ray.

> Apparently there are other stories which exist in incomplete form in
> Smith's notebooks.  Smith's widow at one time proposed to complete these
> stories for publication.  This is how ``Down to a Sunless Sea'' and
> ``Queen of the Afternoon'' came to see the light of day, some 12 years
> after Smith's death.

The same may be true of the second half of Norstrilia, "The Underpeople" is
copyright by Genevieve Linebarger.  In my opinion, there is quite a drop in
quality between the two halves.
 
Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 88 00:24:08 GMT
From: stevev@uoregon.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender)
Subject: Re: Cordwainer Smith

cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) writes:
>???  His "real" name was Paul Eric [Erik?] Linebarger.  I think he worked
>for the State Department.

His _real_ name was Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger.  And he did work for the
State Department.  I found his book _Psychological Warfare_ in our library
and although I didn't read it all the way through, I found some interesting
tidbits.  My favorite was the quote "The strategy for psychological warfare
is plotted on the edge of nightmare."

Steve VanDevender
uoregon!drizzle!stevev
stevev@oregon1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 88 13:40:11 GMT
From: homxc!doug@att.att.com (D.SULPY)
Subject: The Warlock's Night Out, by Christopher Stasheff

Does anyone have anything good to say about this book? It's a 'two-in-one'
volume available from the SF book club. To me, it seems like the author
followed several rules to produce this thing:

1) Read as much of the worst of Piers Anthony as possible, and imitate it.
2) Never revise.
3) Cut out a couple of pages here and there, just to keep the reader
   confused.
4) Fill the book with as many lectures on ninth grade science as 
   possible. This will not only make you feel like you're contributing
   something to the world, but fills up lots and lots of pages as well.
5) Make all the characters exactly the same. That way the reader doesn't
   have to remember which is which.

You might ask why this kind of trash gets published, but the answer ($$) is
obvious. If you ask why this kind of thing MAKES enough money to support
it's existence, you bring up the more serious question of a genuine lapse
of taste on the past of the readers. And it's not really a question of one
person's taste versus another's. Nor is it a question of 'deep' books
against 'light, entertaining' one's (I'm second to no one in my love of the
Stainless Steel Rat books, I'll have you know). But some stuff (like
'Warlock's') is so blatantly poor that I feel cheated by having spent money
on it. Dissenting opinions, anyone?

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 09:21:45 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.edu (didsgn)
Subject: Re: The Warlock's Night Out, by Christopher Stasheff

doug@homxc.UUCP (D.SULPY) writes a lot of derogatory things about Stasheff.

Let me comment on these:
1) I LOVED the "Warlock in Spite of Himself" and "King Kobold", but agree
that most of Stasheff's followups leave me cold. That, however, does not
detract from the merits of the first two- and certainly he did not need
Piers Anthony (he was quite original himself, I thought).

2) When a writer has nothing to say anymore he is in trouble. I have read
some other of Stasheff's writing (titles slipped my mind, that's how
impressed I was!), and find that he has little to say that I can discern.

3) If you don't like somebody's writing, there is, however, no point in
being bitchy about it (even if it's the $$ that bother you). A better
suggestion may be to stop buying his books, or maybe even to write some
yourself. Unless you are a writer yourself, spare the rest of the world
your ideas about how the book was written. Even bad literature gets revised
and re-written. Some bad literature takes really hard work...

4) Try to get SOME of your money back by selling the book to a second-hand
bookshop.

5) A lot of writers are over-rated and still sell well (e.g. David Brin, to
mention one crass example). That is so, because people's tastes differ.
That is nice to know- it makes for diversity!

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 19:23:33 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: The Warlock's Night Out, by Christopher Stasheff

doug@homxc.UUCP (D.SULPY) writes:
> Does anyone have anything good to say about this book?  some stuff (like
> 'Warlock's') is so blatantly poor that I feel cheated by having spent
> money on it. Dissenting opinions, anyone?

Sort of.

The first two books in the series were kind of fun.  The series went
rapidly downhill from there.  And it's usually hard for me put down a book
and forget about finishing it once I've started reading.  Lately it's been
getting pretty easy.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 88 14:12:01 GMT
From: kerog@eneevax.umd.edu (Keith Rogers)
Subject: re: The Warlock's Night Out

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>The first two books in the series were kind of fun.  The series went
>rapidly downhill from there.  And it's usually hard for me put down a book
>and forget about finishing it once I've started reading.  Lately it's been
>getting pretty easy.

 I've been noticing an annoying trend lately toward taking series three or
four books beyond where they should have stopped.  For example: the Xanth
books (the classic example), the Thieve's World books, the Warlock books,
The Darkover books (though that happened quite a while ago), the Flinx
books, the Myth books, and several others which I can't think of right now.

 I used to do a lot of my shopping for science fiction by author, just
automatically picking up books by authors I trusted.  The list of authors I
do this for has been shrinking steadily over the last few years, as I
continually got saddled with trash by an author I had thought was good.
Has anyone else out there noticed this annoying trend?  Comments?

Keith Rogers

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 88 02:27:02 GMT
From: buita!bucsb!boreas@spdcc.com (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: The Warlock's Night Out, by Christopher Stasheff

doug@homxc.UUCP (D.SULPY) writes:
>Does anyone have anything good to say about this book? It's a 'two-in-one'
>       Dissenting opinions, anyone?

Hmmm.  I don't know which two stories are in it, but anyway -- I thought
that the first book in the series, _The_Warlock_in_Spite_of_Himself_, was
pretty enjoyable.  Stasheff played around with a lot of cute Shakespeare
quotes and suchlike, and most of the jokes were rather funny.  It's one
book I don't plan to dump.

The rest of the stories I've read (three or four) were trash.  In fact,
Stasheff wrote an author's note in _King_Kobold_Revived_ (the second of the
books) talking about how he'd had to revise it thoroughly, because the
original story (_King_Kobold_) was so bad.  If the revised story was
better, well, I sure don't want to see the original. :-)

Michael Justice
BITNet: ccmaj@buacca
ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:...!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 88 03:52:39 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: The Warlock's Night Out, by Christopher Stasheff

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>The first two books in the series were kind of fun.  The series went
>rapidly downhill from there.  And it's usually hard for me put down a book
>and forget about finishing it once I've started reading.  Lately it's been
>getting pretty easy.

I disagree.  Perhaps it was when I read "in spite of..." but I found it
extremely predicatable and boring.  Perhaps when it was written the ideas
were good (space explorer finds planet with "magic", is doubtful, is shown
magic, finds explanation, ha ha ha), but I found it unimaginative and
stupid.

Vernon Lee
Rice University               
ARPA/CSNET:  scorpion@rice.edu
UUCP: {internet or backbone site}!rice!scorpion

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 14 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 263

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Watkins & Wolfe & Zelazny (4 msgs) &
                       SF and Murder (2 msgs) &
                       Novels From Shorter Works (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 88 17:49:21 GMT
From: clark@csvax.caltech.edu (Clark Brooks)
Subject: "William John Watkins books"

I was just enjoying a couple of books by W.J. Watkins (The Centrifugal
Rickshaw Dancer & Going to See the End Of the Sky), and it seemed like he's
had enough time to write another book. Has anyone heard of such?

BTW, I recommend these two books highly.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 05:03:40 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: (SPOILER) FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS (was Sentient Computer Novels)

There's a lot of SPOILERS in this article, Cave Canem ... I mean Caveat
Lector.

Alan Bostick writes:
>Dan Tilque (that's me) writes:

>>The Wolfe book did not have direct human-computer access in it.  The
>>closest it got was human personalities stored on mobile computers (not
>>exactly robots, but close).  The stored personality was not a main
>>character, nor was storing personalities a major theme of the book.
>
>Not true!  The stored personality was, in fact, the personality of the
>narrator!  (You have to read the story very carefully to get this, almost
>as carefully as you do to figure out what the narrator's name is.)

Yes and no.  The stored personality was that of an earlier clone of the
narrator.  The reader gets no first hand account of how the computer-human
interface felt or operated.

[real SPOILERS follow]

The book is really about serial clones and how they would tend to get into
a rut and the increasingly drastic attempts to escape the rut.  Also about
how the clones unconsciously sabotaged those attempts.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 88 18:12:22 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Zelazny reissue

Bob Goudreau writes:
>The name is actually _Today_We_Choose_Faces_
>
>There's no accounting for taste -- in my opinion, this is the weakest
>Zelazny novel I've yet read.  To each his own.

Weakest perhaps, worst no.  Personally, I always thought that Zelazny's
worst novel was _Dream Master_.  This was expanded from an excellent short
story whose the name escapes me at the moment.  The short story won or
almost won a Nebula and (probably) deserved it.  The novel I couldn't
finish.

I've always thought that this should be object lesson #1 for new authors
(and to editors of any experience) who want to expand a short story to
novel length.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 21:54:21 GMT
From: jack!nusdhub!rwhite@elgar.cts.com (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe / OR NOT

ins_akaa@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Kenneth Arromdee) says:
> Go to the pattern in Amber and walk it.  Then, when you get to the
> center, transport yourself to the middle of Corwin's pattern.  From there
> you can reach the underlying multiverse.

I would assume that this is *not* true for the following reason(s):

The Logris and the Pattern are barriers to each other; e.g. you can't
transport yourself from the Logris to the center of the pattern or vice
versa.  From the Pattern in amber/remba/nol-whatever/primal you can
transport yourself "anywhere in shadow" The Courts are verboten to this
transport.  Were that not the case they would never have needed the black
road because shadow would not have been "safe" from the courts.

I strongly suspect that the only reason that Brand could trump-in to
the center of Crowins pattern ws that it was not "up to power" yet.
Demonstraited by the fact that the fog-effect had not yet manifested
itself.  The new pattern, especially since it was a bit of an usirper,
most likely had to "find its place in the universe" before it could
begin to really influence its suroundings.  Since it was a pattern,
however, it is reasonable that it would work as a transporter (its
most meager function) right away.

This is what I think is up:

If you have two different, divergent but accurate, two dimensional views of
a three dimensional object, you possess an accurate representation of the
whole object.  To properly understand an object, however, you must
understand its lack also.

I think that Corwin possesses a true-map of the *real* pattern, within the
jewl of judgment, burned into his essince.  He has this because he has
walked both patterns.  These have given him a three dimensional
perspective.  This perspective allows him to be at one with the real
pattern, and therefore hop around at will, and the like.  That would
explain his disapearences et. al. described in the second series (like the
clothes in Corwins room, and things moving around).

It seems significant that anybody who has made a pattern themselves does
understand how to use the jewel of judgment, but dosn't seem to need to.
Dworkin gave it to Oberon, and Corwin didn't mind loosing it at all.  There
is only one pattern in the uni/multiverse.  That is in the Jewel of
Judgment.  Corwin's pattern is just an alternate view.  I doubt that it has
its own multiverse, because that would have to border on the Courts, which
it does not; more likely it just makes the connections between shadow
available in new and different shapes.  Like no light/movement needed to
walk shadow.

Merlin contains both the Pattern and the Logris.  He can even use the
Logris to reach out-of-bounds from one point in shadow to another.  While
anybody who has the Logris can do this, I get the distinct impression that
Merlin is the only one who can reach a shadow this side of where things
start to fall into chaos.  Nobody else had done this.  I strongly suspect
that when Merlin finaly gets around to walking Corwin's pattern he will be
confused for a while and things will normal out.

If, however, Merlin ever invokes the three dimensional Pattern and the
Logris (which is described as a three dimensional tangle) together he will
become like the Unicorn.  Able to enter the abiss and primal chaos, and
generally able to exist without the support of the pattern and the logris.

The whole living-trump concept, and the behavior of Ghost-wheel bear out
the concept that it is possible to go beyond the limits of the polar
extreems.  The Unicorn is proof that it can be done by an organism without
becoming a heartless and conscienceless monster.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 03:19:35 GMT
From: chi@csvax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

russell@eneevax.umd.edu (Christopher Russell) writes:
>ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Kenneth Arromdee) writes:
>>Go to the pattern in Amber and walk it.  Then, when you get to the
>>center, transport yourself to the middle of Corwin's pattern.  From there
>>you can reach the underlying multiverse.
>
>Not quite.  It's not being in the center of the pattern that allows you to
>transport anywhere you wish, it's having walked the pattern.  Transporting
>into the center of another pattern, or trumping in, or whatever, will not
>allow you to then transport somewhere else.

Not so.

In _Nine_Princes_in_Amber_, Corwin, after walking the Rebma Pattern, uses
it to transport himself to the center of the Amber Pattern.  Then, he uses
the Amber pattern to put himself elsewhere in the castle, so that he can
reach the library.

Is it ever mentioned in the books that it is possible to trump into the
center of a Pattern?  If so, it would be possible to carry only one Trump -
depicting the center - and use it to travel anywhere.

Can you use the Pattern to transport oneself somewhere where one has never
been?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 06:48:27 GMT
From: davidg@killer.dallas.tx.us (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

ins_akaa@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Kenneth Arromdee) writes:
> Go to the pattern in Amber and walk it.  Then, when you get to the
> center, transport yourself to the middle of Corwin's pattern.  From there
> you can reach the underlying multiverse.

Won't work.  If I understand correctly, you have to know the place that
you're going to (because you have to picture it in order for the Pattern to
transport you there), and while you may know what Corwin's Pattern may look
like (so that Amber's Pattern can send you there), you don't know anything
about what any of the shadows that are spun off of Corwin's Pattern look
like: You'd have no way of visualizing where you want to go.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ames, mit-eddie}!killer!davidg
INET: davidg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 88 16:35:55 GMT
From: mrsvr!ralston@csd1.milw.wisc.edu (Richard Ralston)
Subject: SF and Murder (Was: 3 Laws of Robotics and Murder)

Speaking of SF and murder, I read a book several years ago by Randall
Garrett called _Too_Many_Magicians_.  I really enjoyed the combination of
Fantasy and Murder mystery.  Are there any other authors who have written
along these lines?  If so, who are they, and what books?

Thanks.

Richard B. Ralston
G.E. Medical Systems
PO Box 414          
Milwaukee, WI 53201-414
sun!sunbird!gemed!starwolf!ralston

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 88 21:53:34 GMT
From: leonard@agora.hf.intel.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SF and Murder

ralston@mrsvr.UUCP (Richard Ralston) writes:
>Speaking of SF and murder, I read a book several years ago by Randall
>Garrett called _Too_Many_Magicians_.  I really enjoyed the combination of
>Fantasy and Murder mystery.  Are there any other authors who have written
>along these lines?  If so, who are they, and what books?

Well, I'm not sure about *other* authors, but there are two more books
about Lord Darcy! _Murder & Magic_, and _Lord Darcy Investigates_. These
are both collections of short stories and novellas. There is at least one
Lord Darcy story that is not included in these books... (one of these days
I'll dig thru my back issues of Analog and re-read it)

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!percival!agora!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 88 05:48:16 GMT
From: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Mhoram)
Subject: Novels from shorter works

It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel, it's a
definite loss.  Card's "Ender's Game" springs to mind.  I know the novel
version won the Hugo, but the novella (novellete?) version was sooooo much
better.  I wonder if the novel version wasn't mostly to set up "Speaker for
the Dead" (which was great). The short version had a much greater effect on
me, and seemed much more personal, that the long version. (It's not just
because I read the short version first.  I can go back and reread it, and
it touches me just as much as it did the first time.  The novel doesn't
even come close...)

As an aside, I think Card's short work is almost all better than the
novels, with the exception of Speaker.

The only exception I can think of is the expansion of "The Sentinel" into
2001, and I'm not sure that counts, since Kubrick was so involved with it.

Any more examples?  Or counter examples? Or just plain disagreement?

steveg
ARPA: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu
      steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
UUCP: ....!ucbvax!hub!squid!steveg

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 23:56:00 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Mhoram) writes:
>It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel, it's a
>definite loss.  Card's "Ender's Game" springs to mind.  I know the novel
>version won the Hugo, but the novella (novellete?) version was sooooo much
>better.  I wonder if the novel version wasn't mostly to set up "Speaker
>for the Dead" (which was great). The short version had a much greater
>effect on me, and seemed much more personal, that the long version. (It's
>not just because I read the short version first.  I can go back and reread
>it, and it touches me just as much as it did the first time.  The novel
>doesn't even come close...)

I agree, and that was the second example which came to my mind.  However,
the novel form of Ender's Game was not that bad; it just didn't have the
emotional impact that the novella had.

**SPOILER AHEAD for both versions of Ender's Game but there's some
non-spoiler stuff after it**

The novella ends with Ender an emotional basket case.  We have no idea what
will become of him next, but he is clearly not even close to a normal
human.  Obviously, Ender needs a vast amount of help in many ways.

But the two officers who ran the school and were largely responsible for
Ender's condition couldn't care less.  They're too busy getting their
resumes in order so they can get fancy high paying civilian jobs.

The same scenes were also in the novel, but because of all the added stuff,
they had almost zero emotional impact.  In fact, the scene where they
discuss their employment opportunities could have been left out of the
novel with little loss.

** SPOILER OFF **

The novel had an entirely different message altogether, which, while
significant, did not have the nearly the emotional impact of the shorter
work.  However, Ender's Game was an exception to the general rule of short
work expansion in that, the novel did have a different message.  In Dream
Master, Zelazny was giving the same message (at least as far as I could
tell having read only the beginning) in a longer way.

This is generally true for fiction as a whole.  A good short story writer
can pack a much bigger emotional wallop than a good novelist, just because
the message is more condensed.  I think this is why short fiction turned
into novels is usually a mistake.  Diluting the message makes it weaker,
not stronger.

>The only exception I can think of is the expansion of "The Sentinel" into
>2001, and I'm not sure that counts, since Kubrick was so involved with it.

I don't know.  I wasn't all that thrilled with 2001 (the novel).  I think
Kubrick's only contribution was that Clarke tried to keep the novel as
close as possible to the movie in terms of plot.  And even then, the
Discovery went to a different planet in the book than in the movie.

Anyway, the only message I get from 2001 is "There are some real mysterious
aliens out there.  They sure are mysterious.  I mean REAL mysterious."(*) I
got almost that much from "The Sentinel", only they weren't quite as
mysterious.

(*) I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this message, but I'll think of
something.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 05:05:19 GMT
From: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Steve Greenland)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

>I  write:
>>[I think Ender's Game was much better as a novella than as a novel]

dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
>I agree, and that was the second example which came to my mind.  However,
>the novel form of Ender's Game was not that bad; it just didn't have the
>emotional impact that the novella had.

I guess I didn't make it clear that I too think the novel version was
pretty good, just not great (as I think the short version is).

>>The only exception I can think of is the expansion of "The Sentinel" into
>>2001, and I'm not sure that counts, since Kubrick was so involved with
>>it.
>
>I don't know.  I wasn't all that thrilled with 2001 (the novel).  I think
>Kubrick's only contribution was that Clarke tried to keep the novel as
>close as possible to the movie in terms of plot.  And even then, the
>Discovery went to a different planet in the book than in the movie.

I like the novel of 2001 a lot, and I think it's better than the Sentinel.
It neither diluted or changed the short version, and was more interesting.
That's all I meant.  (The reference to Kubrick was just sort of an offhand
guess, but I'm pretty sure that the plot was developed by both of them in
tandem, not just Clarke 'copying' the script plot into prose form.
Incidentally, the original planet in the movie was supposed to Saturn, but
Kubrick ran out of money for the special effects ( the rings) and settled
for Jupiter. They wanted Saturn for the moon Iapetus, which does appear
kind of weird from Earth.  Interestingly enough, that is where 2010
begins....)

steveg
ARPA: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu
      steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
UUCP: ....!ucbvax!hub!squid!steveg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 15 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 264

Today's Topics:

	      Miscellaneous - Cyberpunk Fanzine & Pulphouse &
                              Interstellar Migration & 
                              War of the Worlds &
                              Conventions (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 88 09:48:45 GMT
From: andym@crash.cts.com (Andy Micone)
Subject: Cyberpunk fanzine being organized

Hi there,

I am in the process of organizing a "cyberpunk" science-fiction fanzine.
Cyberpunk, if you are not familiar, is a sub-genre of science-fiction that
is particularly concerned with high-technology and its effects on society,
while using "hip" imagery to convey its message. The book _Neuromancer_ is
the archetypal cyberpunk work.

A fanzine is a not-for-profit magazine run by fans, for fans. It is a
compilation of amateur stories, critical essays, and other writings all
done on a voluntary basis.

I'm building a mailing list for the fanzine now. If you are interested in
recieving a copy, e-mail me your US mail address. Any costs involved will
be solely to cover the costs of publication.

If you are interested in making contributions to the first issue, be it in
the form of stories, artwork, critical essays, poems, whatever, please send
e-mail letting me know that you are interested. Submissions are the
backbone of a fanzine, and they can't exist without them. I know there's
some creative talent out there, so let me know if you are interested!

andym@crash.CTS.COM
UUCP: ..!sdcsvax!crash!andym

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 22:49:56 GMT
From: war@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Andy R.)
Subject: New Magazine

Just got the first issue of a new magazine called "Pulphouse".  Published
in HARDBACK none the less!  Anyhow, issue #1 is devoted to horror and
features *new* stories by:

   Harlan Ellison
   Ed Bryant
   Kate Willhelm
   Michael Bishop
   Charles de Lint

and many, many others.  The magazine is to be published quarterly, with
each issue devoted to a specific genre.  Isue #2 will be science fiction.
Run, do not walk, to your local specialty book store and look for this.
It's great.  If they don't have it, you can write to:

   Pulphouse Publishing
   P.O. Box 1227
   Eugene, OR  97440

Andy R.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 05:25:38 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Stack Overflow)
Subject: Grist for the writer's mill


There is an excellent book that is not fiction but of relevancy to this
group:
  Interstellar Migration and the Human Experience
  edited by Ben R. Finney and Eric M. Jones
  Univ. of California Press, 1985
I bought it about a year ago so it may still be in print.

This is a collection of papers derived from a conference.  The papers have
been cleaned up, some new material published elsewhere has been added, and
in some cases rebuttals and comments added.  The book is an
interdisciplinary look at what going to the stars might mean, accessible to
the Scientific American type reader.  There are some technical papers in
the front to set the stage: e.g., what resources are there, what are the
problems of interstellar travel?  The paper by David Criswell beats any
hard science fiction extrapolation I've read.  Dyson spheres are old hat,
this guy works around to techniques for managing the Sun, extending its
lifetime to support the massive human society around it.

There is a section on demography and economics.  Well, what about this
genetic drift bugaboo, what IS a minimum colony size?  (Smaller than you
would think.)  How would one plan the first few generations' economy and
provide for their needs considering massive resupply will be impractical?
Deciding what to pack is a non-trivial problem for a generation ship.
There are sections discussing other societies (such as the Polynesians) who
have culturally adapted to massive migration.  There is even a section on
what migration might mean to the future evolution of our species.  Going to
the stars is not just a matter of engineering, it will be a profound
cultural enterprise.  Reading this book gives some idea of the issues
involved, and in doing so makes it all that much more real.  I recommend
this book highly for ideas and just for dreaming.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 88 10:48 CDT
From: Jerry Stearns <CORDWAINER@umnacvx.bitnet>
Subject: WAR OF THE WORLDS

   Someone recently mentioned the War of the Worlds.  Well I have it that
the "WotW" radio has been reproduced and will be broadcast this October 30,
at 8:00 PM on National Public Radio.  That's precisely 50 years after the
Orson Welles version, in 1938.  It's been produced by David Ossman (of the
Firesign Theater), and stars Jason Robards and Steve Allen, among others.
Minor changes in the script have been made to make it more up-to-date, but
mostly it's been left intact.  They will NOT announce that it is a play at
the beginning, and in the center commercial break, as was done on the
original broadcast.
   Personally, as an SF radio freak, I am looking forward to it.  I will be
talking to Ossman at the Midwest Radio Theater Workshop at the end of
September, and will pass on any further info if I get it.

Jerry Stearns
Academic Computing Services & Systems
University of Minnesota
612) 625-1543
CORDWAINer@UMNACVX.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 15:47:44 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Convention Blues

mae@aplvax.jhuapl.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) writes:
> Maybe some of you who have been going to cons longer than I can say
> whether there is any truth to the following reason I've heard people give
> for the separation of literature and media cons: Star Trek brought many
> more women into fandom than had ever participated before and this made
> some long-time participants nervous.  At cons I've been to the
> male/female ratio has usually been close to 50/50 but of the over 200
> zines in my collection, probably less than 10 are edited by guys and
> most are entirely written and illustrated by women. Also, media-based
> zines are 99% fan fiction while the faanish SF zines are basicly
> articles.  How did this difference come about?

I think I can comment on some of this--I'm married to someone who was one
of the original fans of S*T and wrote fiction related to it in the late
60s.

First off, please remember that Spock was originally set up as a secondary
character. There seems to have been quite a mystique about Spock--he
appealed to many women--particularly the late-teens to mid-20s group.  A
lot of the early fan-fiction set in the S*T universe wound up with the
author's character marrying him.

Old "mainline" SF came heavily from 1. a reading (rather than media)
background and 2. from a major emphasis on physical science and
engineering.  For examples, just pick up any issue of Astounding/Analog
prior to about 1965.  Work in the physical sciences (and even more so, in
engineering) has been heavily male dominated.  (I will not argue the merits
of this here-- I am just noting this as historical fact.)  Not
surprisingly, the resultant fiction was written to appeal to those readers.

The net result of these two trends has lead to male dominated "traditional"
fanzines and female dominated S*T fanzines.  Given the history, I suspect
that the S*T 'zines were started by women that knew how it was done from
observing the male friends and relations, but felt frozen out of the older
'zines by a lack of interest in the content.  Once something came along
that really sparked interest--the female-run fanzines sprang up
"overnight", as it were, and came to control that segment of fan
publishing.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 20:40:12 GMT
From: jack!nusdhub!rwhite@elgar.cts.com (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Hotels and SF cons

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) says:
> As far as I can see, there are two basic alternatives--

   3. At a con I reciently attended, the behavior of some of the minors and
idiots was getting out of hand.  The Con Committee got up in front of
several of the more popular events and asked "the responsible fans, who
would like to see this con happen again" to self-police the con.
Everytime something started to get out of hand, all the by-standers simply
stopped by-standing.  A crowd of "un-impressed" attendees would gather and
then someone would step forward and ask "and what are we doing here?"
   After the request to the crowd, there were fewer incidents at this con
than at any of the others I had been at.  The hotel staff actually thanked
the attendees for making the con so safe/successful/etc.  Everybody present
even got off on being "impromptu security."  Sort of "The rule of the
public sword" (the basis of all democratic enforcement) in action in a
direct form.  *And* this little act of public awareness seemed to make an
improvment to the Con's "sense of family."

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 88 01:57:06 GMT
From: encore!cloud9!jjmhome!lmann@bu-cs.bu.edu (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Nolacon

Well, since no one has brought it up yet (shame on you, Evelyn and Chuq!),
I thought I'd post a little bit about Nolacon.

It was the best of cons, it was the worst of cons....

On the plus side, I met/remet lots of great people, saw a very good Art
Show, ran/co-ran, or attended lots of good parties, and had a very comfy
room in the Marriott.  I touristed around New Orleans for most my first 24
hours of the con.  I hit the French Quarter a number of times, and took a
long boat ride on Wednesday.  I had dinner in lots of nice,
moderately-priced restaurants.  I also got to the @ party on Saturday
night, and met Chuq and Laurie and Bill Higgins and Saul and Evelyn and
others I've probably forgotten.

On the down side, the convention was dreadfully "organized," it took me
three hours to hang art for a friend of mine (Fan Art Hugo nominee Merle
Insinga (yes, the one name that Mike Resnick mispronounced)), it took a few
friends up to SIX HOURS to buy art during Art Show close-out, it rained
more than I expected, and the facilities were taxed.  I met Paul Prudhomme,
a possible contender for a "Jabba-the-Hut"-like character in a future Star
Wars movie and immediately decided to go on a diet.

But the plusses far out-distanced the minuses.  Since I'd decided "not to
work" on Nolacon, I partied harder than I have at Worldcons in years---this
was the first Worldcon since 1976 that I hadn't worked for.

Nolacon proved without a doubt that no matter HOW BAD the Worldcon sounds,
it's STILL worth trying to get there.

I don't have my Hugo nominee list handy, but let me try to reconstruct the
Awards from Sunday night:

   Best Novel:  Uplift War  (David Brin)
   Best Novella:  Eye for an Eye (Orson Scott Card)
   Best Novellette: Bufalo Gals Won't You Come Out Tonight 
        (Ursula K. LeGuin)
   Best Short Story:  Why I Left Harry's All-Night Hamburger Stand
        (Lawrence Watt-Evans - a man with CMU connections!)	
   Best Dramatic Presentation:  The Princess Bride
   Best Non-fiction Book:  Works of Wonder (Michael Whelan)
   Best Other Forms:  Watchmen 
   Best Professional Editor:  Gardner Dozois  (Isaac Asimov's)
   Best Professional Artist:  Michael Whelan
   The Locus Award  (Ghu, am I disgusted!)  (That's "Best Semi-prozine")
   Best Fanzine:  Texas SF Enquirer (Pat Mueller, editor--three cheers
        for the forces of light!)		
   Best Fan Writer:  Mike Glyer
   Best Fan Artist:  Brad Foster	
   Campbell Award:  Loren MacGregor(??????)

Analysis: I didn't read that much, so I don't have any strong feelings on
the literary awards, though I liked Tim Powers' "On Stranger Tides" (which
wasn't nominated) lots more than "Uplift Wars." Pat Murphy's "Rachel in
Love" should have won Best Novella, though.  It was absolutely one of the
best "let's get inside the head of a non-human" story ever written.  "The
Princess Bride" is probably the first fantasy movie to win a Hugo, and the
best fantasy made in nearly 50 years.  While some people whose opinions I
really respect love "Watchmen," I can't bring myself to read a
comic-illustrated novel.  Pat Mueller may have been nominated due to fan
politics (after being cast out of TSFE by a Texas fan group), but she's
done a damn good job as a faneditor for an awfully long time.  Her current
"Pirate Jenny" will be on my ballot for next year.  It's also about time
that "Aboriginal SF" won the Best Semi-prozine award.
	
Anyway, next year I have no choice but to work on the next Worldcon, seeing
as my husband and I are co-heads of Noreascon's Services Division!

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 88 07:34:50 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Highmore in 1992?

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>Hey, Richard!  How about Highmore in 1992?

   Hey be careful with that stuff -- the last time we ran a Highmore bid we
almost won.  [The fix was in; we had people on the con committee throwing
out every other Highmore ballot.  Even with that it was close.]

   Well now, there are problems with a Highmore bid today.  Highmore used
to have two hotels.  Granted that the total room capacity of the two was
about 50, but it was never intended that attendees were going to get Hotel
rooms -- those were for the committee.  Sadly enough both hotels have been
pulled down.  One was condemned by the fire department and the other was
condemned by the board of health.  There is a local motel which we can book
for the committee [$10 an hour, $5 all night].  We will need to book it in
advance (24 hours notice will do.)  But it will mean that the concom will
have to cutback in size.  In view of the current trend to cutting back on
programming this is no problem.

   My mother is still willing to rent out land South of town for the tent
city to house the attendees.  No problem there.  I expect we can still get
the National Guard to act as convention security.  Given the hard times
with the current drought I expect we can get local labor to dig the latrine
trenches.  We will need to make advance arrangements to have the requisite
number of pizzas trucked in for the banquet.  [The mountain oyster feed
can't be held; it's the wrong season of the year.  Mountain oyster's are
harvested in the spring time.]

   The town by laws requiring all fans who do not have papers from their
board of health or local veterinarian to be passed through the local sheep
dip pits have not been repealed.

   The Indians at the local Sioux reservation have kindly offered to stage
a live reenactment of Custer's last stand.  I understand that they have
some, ah, spectacular special effects in mind.  They insist that the "no
weapons" policy be enforced.

   The filk singers will have to post bond; the cattlemen's association is
concerned that the filkers will spook the cattle.

   Hugos will be determined by sealed bid.  

   There is a facilities problem.  Our plan, at the last bid, was to use
the Highmore Civic Auditorium for the programmed events.  The auditorium
seats 5000 (when the basketball court is filled with folding chairs).  This
was more than adequate when the last Highmore bid was made; it is not
enough for today's large worldcons.  The suggestion has been made that this
problem be resolved by not providing transportation from the tent city to
the Auditorium on the assumption that the average fan is physically
incapable of walking a mile.  The suggestion is moot -- we never intended
to provide transportation.  As a tactical device it probably won't work;
there are too many locals who are willing to rent out their cattle trucks.

   The auction barn (where we were going to hold the auction) has been
closed.  This is a real problem.  There is a possibility that we can hold
the art show auction jointly with a farm foreclosure auction.

   The official convention language will be Frisian (no change).

   The local quarry is ready to supply friable slate for the convention
fanzine.  [Qualified chippers get a rebate on their registration fees.]

   Water is a problem.  The town is adamant in not extending water lines to
a tent city.  Fortunately my mother has a well (usually used for watering
cattle) and is willing to sell water to the attendees at a modest rate.

   Unless times get really hard, food will not be a problem.  Ground feed
(whole ear corn and oats ground up) is quite nutritious, has a high fiber
content, and is readily available from the local ranchers.  They are also
willing to rent out feeding troughs; they do ask, however, that the troughs
be sterilized after the convention is over.  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #265
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 15 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 265

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 18:08:01 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Nolacon

>Well, since no one has brought it up yet (shame on you, Evelyn and Chuq!),
>I thought I'd post a little bit about Nolacon.

I'm typing as fast as I can! Honest! 

Actually, I've been silent because I'm not really sure what to say. The con
existed, I came, I conned, I left. It was better than Conspiracy last year
(although I know of a couple of people who would disagree with me on that!)
but not as good as Baycon is each year out here in the Bay Area. Just
bigger.

>On the plus side, I met/remet lots of great people

As always, the people are the high point of the convention. And you get to
see people at Worldcon that you simply can't see at other conventions,
which makes all the crowds and hassles and noise and confusion worthwhile.
The downside is that there are so many people that the list of people you
want to see but never run into is as large as the list you did find.

>saw a very good Art Show,

The quality was, in general, quite good. I didn't bring anything home, more
because of logistics than lack of interest (and that I'd spent my art
budget on stuff before I got to New Orleans....).

>On the down side, the convention was dreadfully "organized,"

Lessee. Conspiracy could be defined as chaotic evil. Nolacon qualifies as
chaotic neutral. Conventions, once you get them started, tend to more or
less run themselves. But there were lots and lots of glitches (most of
them, from what I can tell, in the background) that made life interesting.

Among other things, the con suite person decided not to stock alcohol in
the con suite (from rumors, because she was a fundamentalist Christian and
against alcohol in principle). Most of the people I talked to felt it was
an improvement not having lots of free, easily accessible beer for the
under-age (mentally and physically) to abuse: it was quieter, you didn't
have people passing out in the suite and halls, you didn't have drunken
teenagers acting dorky, etc. (side note: you have an open, unattended suite
with alcohol. Anyone with a con badge can come in and have a beer. They're
not carded. Anyone want to guess what the legal liabilities of this are?
Worse, anyone want to guess what the local police would do to the con
committee?). On the other hand, lots of folks LIKE having the alcohol
around, and not having it because of an arbitrary fiat created problems,
such as the infamous "Jerry Pournelle strafing the Green Room" incidents.

Programming was an interesting almost-fiasco. The pocket program was
generally incomprehensible, looking more like an IRS tax form or a college
class listing than anything you could use to figure out what panel to see
next. Besides, it was wrong.  I think Nolacon was the first convention
where more panels were moved than stayed in the original room. It made
finding the panels you wanted to see an interesting exercise in outguessing
the programming people. I know of at least one panel that was held in two
different rooms by two different panels to two different audiences at the
same time because half the panel and audience found out about the change
and half didn't. Fun stuff.

>Nolacon proved without a doubt that no matter HOW BAD the Worldcon sounds,
>it's STILL worth trying to get there.

Yeah. We all bitch about the problems. And the problems shouldn't be
ignored. But it's hard to screw up the people, the friendships, the
parties, and all of the other stuff that make a con with going to.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 21:21:12 GMT
From: wauford@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (Melissa Wauford)
Subject: Re: Nolacon

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>Campbell Award:  Loren MacGregor(??????)

Judy Moffitt, I'm pretty sure.  Definitely not MacGregor.

I would point out that the Hugo ceremony itself, despite starting over a
half hour late, was one of the best in my memory.  Mike Resnick outdid
himself with *short* genuinely funny bits of Worldcon-alia.  And for once
the Dramatic Presentation that got the biggest hand (from the literary
types that usually go to the Hugos) actually won.

Melissa Wauford
MWAUFORD@UTKVX1.UTK.EDU 

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 00:35:15 GMT
From: war@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Andy R.)
Subject: Re: Nolacon

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>teenagers acting dorky, etc. (side note: you have an open, unattended
>suite with alcohol. Anyone with a con badge can come in and have a beer.
>They're not carded. Anyone want to guess what the legal liabilities of
>this are?  Worse, anyone want to guess what the local police would do to
>the con committee?). On the other hand, lots of folks LIKE having the
>alcohol

Just a note from other cons here.

Having worked op's for many different cons around the country, I can say
that I have never seen a totally open consuite bar.  The usual tactic has
been to have two different classes of badges one for drinkers and one for
non (and minors).  Badges are looked at by the bartender, and if the wrong
type no drink is served.  And the registration folks are required to look
at the person's ID when registering and make sure they are old enough to
drink (if requesting a drinking badge).

Just some insight from "behind the scenes".

Andy R.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 08:03:26 GMT
From: bobby@csvax.caltech.edu (Bobby Bodenheimer)
Subject: Questions about SFWA, Hugos, Nebulas

I have some questions about SFWA and the Hugo and Nebula Awards that I hope
someone will be able to answer:

   1. What's the approximate membership of SFWA? What are the eligibility
      requirements?

   2. How does a book get nominated for the Hugo Award? Who gets to vote?

   3. How does a book get nominated for the Nebula Award?

Thanks in advance,

Bobby Bodenheimer
BITNET: bobby@caltech.bitnet              
ARPA: bobby@csvax.caltech.edu           
UUCP: {amdahl,ames!elroy}!cit-vax!bobby 

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 17:13:44 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Questions about SFWA, Hugos, Nebulas

>I have some questions about SFWA and the Hugo and Nebula Awards that I hope
>someone will be able to answer:
>
>   1. What's the approximate membership of SFWA? What are the eligibility
>      requirements?

The membership is, I believe, somewhere between 250 and 300 people. 

Eligibility for full membership is three short works or one novel published
in legitimate markets (legitimate means: not subsidy publishers, minimum
readership levels, haven't done something stupid enough to make the SFWA
cause it to not exist).

Eligibility for an associate membership is affiliation with the SF/Fantasy
market: editor, publisher, agent, etc. Associates don't vote for the Nebula
or leadership or get the SFWA Forum.

>   2. How does a book get nominated for the Hugo Award? Who gets to vote?

First, you buy at least a supporting membership in the upcoming worldcon.
Then they send you a nominating ballot. Then you fill it out and mail it
in.  Eventually, they send you a final ballot with the works that were
nominated most often. Then you vote on that. Eventually someone wins.

To nominate/vote for a Hugo requires a supporting membership in the
Worldcon. That's it.

>   3. How does a book get nominated for the Nebula Award?

Since I'm going to be the next Nebula Awards Report Editor for SFWA, this
is something near and dear to my heart. When an SFWA member reads a
book/story/etc they like, they send a note to the NAR Editor. The NAR
editor totals these all up and every so often publishes a report on who's
voting for what. (SFWA members can nominate as many or as few works as they
want, by the way)

At the end of the year everything is totaled up and the top nominees in
each category are put on the final ballot (the Nebula Committee can also
add a title per category that they feel deserves to be on the ballot as
well).  Then the members vote on it, and eventually someone wins.

This assumes that the author doesn't hold back eligibility for a future
time, and that the work is really eligible and in the proper category and
all sorts of other fun things. The Nebula award is rather complicated, but
mostly makes sense once you look at it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 20:02:57 GMT
From: wauford@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (Melissa Wauford)
Subject: Re: Questions about SFWA, Hugos, Nebulas

bobby@cit-vax.UUCP (Bobby Bodenheimer) writes:
>   2. How does a book get nominated for the Hugo Award? Who gets to vote?

Hugo awards are nominated and voted for by members of the World Science
Fiction Society (WSFS).  These consist of all those who have at least a
supporting membership in the World Science Fiction Convention (Worldcon)
which takes place during the voting year (i.e., members of the 1988
Worldcon nominate and vote for awards for the 1987 publishing (calendar)
year).

Nomination ballots are generally sent out in March for return by mid-April.
Final ballots consisting of the top five nomination getters in each
category are then sent out (usually in late May) for return by mid-July.
The awards are announced at Worldcon in late August or very early
September.  Facsimile nomination or voting ballots are accepted but must be
accompanied by a by a valid membership number or a check for a supporting
membership.

The Hugos are administered by the Worldcon Committee as provided in the
By-laws of the WSFS.  The Worldcon Committee may at its discretion add a
category *for that year only* or give a Special nonvoted Award to a person,
group, or work of its choosing.  Permanent changes must be approved by the
business meeting of two consecutive Worldcons.

>   3. How does a book get nominated for the Nebula Award?

The Nebulas are nominated by members of SFWA only.  All through the year
they accept nominations for stories and novels to be included on the
Preliminary Nebula Ballot.  Any work which receives five or more
nominations makes the Preliminary Ballot which is sent out around January
or February.  The Preliminary Ballot is basically to provide information to
SFWA members so that they might have the chance to read works which others
found deserving, but which were not on their reading list.

Nominations continue to be accepted until about April when the Nebula Jury
looks at the final nomination results and issues the Final Ballot.  The
Jury generally includes on the Final Ballot the top five nomination getters
plus up to one more work which may be chosen on "merit" by the Jury.  For
example, a year or two ago the Jury added _The Life of Nicholas the
American_, a little read, but excellent book, to the novel category even
though it only received around 10 nominations.

Melissa Wauford
MWAUFORD@UTKVX1.UTK.EDU 

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 20:08:18 GMT
From: war@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Andy R.)
Subject: Re: Questions about SFWA, Hugos, Nebulas

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>I have some questions about SFWA and the Hugo and Nebula Awards that I
>>hope someone will be able to answer:
>>
>>   1. What's the approximate membership of SFWA? What are the eligibility
>>      requirements?
>
>The membership is, I believe, somewhere between 250 and 300 people. 

{balance of article deleted}

Um . . .

I'm just wondering if Chuq hasn't misplaced a zero here.  If not, I must be
really blessed knowing about 30 or so SFWA members and having about 20 of
those living in Eugene (OR).

(I'm not a SWA member, I just live with one.)

Andy R.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 04:10:12 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Questions about SFWA, Hugos, Nebulas

>>   1. What's the approximate membership of SFWA?
>I believe the membership is in the 500-600 range.

I just did a quick count of my SFWA directory. It's about 1,000 members,
including honorary and associates.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 18:46:56 GMT
From: bucsb!joshua5@buita.bu.edu (Jim Peters)
Subject: Star Trek Convention in Boston?

Does anyone know when and where the next ST Convention is going to be held
in Boston?  If memory serves, there has been one around the middle of
October for the past few years.  Of course, I found out about it after the
fact, so this year I'd appreciate knowing before it's over.  Any comments?

ARPANET: joshua5@bucsf.bu.edu
CSNET: joshua5%bucsf@bu-cs 
UUCP: ...harvard!bu-cs!bucsf!joshua5
BITNET: cscbu4c@buacca     

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 00:45:24 GMT
From: fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox)
Subject: St. Louis Fantasy Fan Fair (convention)

The following is a flyer that a friend of mine wanted me to post on the
net.  It is about a science fiction convention in St. Louis on the weekend
of Oct. 14, 15 and 16.  Please do not send me email concerning the
convention, address any inqueries to:

   St. Louis Fantasy Fan Fair
   c/o Gloria Linke
   12402 Conway Rd.
   St. Louis, Mo.  63141


			St. Louis Fantasy Fan Fair
			October 14, 15 and 16, 1988
		     The Breckenridge Frontenac Hotel
			    St. Louis, Missouri
Guests:

John Levene (Sgt. Benton - Dr. Who) - Confirmed
Janet Fielding (Tegan - Dr. Who) - Confirmed
Sally Knyvette (Jenna - Blake's 7) 
Frazer Hines (Jamie - Dr. Who)
George Perez (Comic Book Writer)

Hotel Information:

Breckenridge Frontenac Hotel
1335 S. Lindbergh

For hotel reservations, call in Missouri (314) 993-1100.
Out of state call 1-800-325-7800
You must say you are with the convention to receive con rates.

Free transport to and from the airport and shopping
Free parking
Health Club Facilities: outdoor pool, sauna, whirlpool, nautilis equipment

The Breckenridge is conveniently located at the intersection of highway 40
and south Lindbergh.  Frontenac Plaza is located across the street.  This
beautiful mansion looking hotel will enitce you throughout this fabulous
weekend of events.

			     Scheduled Events

An Evening at the Palace - Saturday evening
   Come one, come all, for an evening of great entertainment-well, at least
   cheap!  Performances by guests and interested fans.  You always wanted
   to be a star, well here's your chance.  Costume contest will be held
   during this event.  Singing, dancing, acting, or anything else you can
   come up with will be welcomed.  You must have purchased a one day
   membership to attend this event.  Please see registration form.

Panels - Both Saturday and Sunday
   Come ask the guests the question you always wanted the answer to.  You
   can also try to outsmart your favorite guests in our liars panels.  Then
   you can make the decision... believe it or not.

Win, Lose or Draw
   Challenge the stars with your artistic abilities in our version of the
   hit t.v. game show "Win, Lose or Draw".  Fan participation will be
   involved.

Scavenger Hunt
   Now's your chance to play Sherlock Holmes.  Be creative, be invincible
   or just plain cheat!  A list of items and clues where to find them will
   be given in your registration packet.  The rest is up to you.  Prizes to
   be awarded.

Dealers Room
   Oh God! another place to spend money.  This room will be open starting
   Friday afternoon for all you early birds wanting that special something
   from your favourite sci-fi show or comic.  Please see registration form
   for table information.

Video Room
   Doctor Who, Blake's 7, The Avengers, The Prisoner, V, Black Adder,
   K-9 and Company, Rocky Horror, and many more...

Art Show
   Now's your chance all you talented and creative people.  This room
   is just for you.  Your pieces will be auctioned off it you want or
   they can be on display for viewing.  See registration form for info.

Charity Auction
   Items from the guests and art work from the fans will be auctioned off.
   The funds will be donated to make a wish foundation new called The
   Dream Factory.  This charity is dedicated to granting a special wish
   to terminally ill children.  Please help support a worthy cause.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 15 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 266

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Robert Adams & Card (2 msgs) &
                          Herbert (2 msgs) & Moorcock & 
                          Zelazny (5 msgs) & Story Request & 
                          Answers (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 22:12:37 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series

A good example of this problem is in the Horseclan novels of Robert Adams.
The first trilogy was good if a little rough on the edges, and some of the
ones following were a good read.  The more recent ones, though, (such as
_Trumpets_of_War_) have too little plot linked to too little action with
too much (real-world) political diatribe.  They are still readable, but
it's getting marginal.

(One thing in Adams' favor is that he is one of the few blood-and-thunder
authors who doesn't gloss over the unpleasant details of war and at the
same time doesn't clobber the plotline to dwell on the horrors.)

Does anyone know if Adams has any real grunt-level combat experience?  One
of the interesting literary consequences of WWII came from the time Edgar
Rice Burroughs spent as an accredited war correspondent in the Pacific
theater; his subsequent books backed off from the earlier position of
war-is-glorious.  Compare such books as _Llana_of_Gathol_ (sp?) and
_Tarzan_and_the_Foreign_Legion_ to earlier books in the series.
 
Back to Adams: does anyone think that there's any hope for his latest book,
titled _Stairway_to_(something)_ (I don't recall the complete title, which
isn't a surprise given the text.)  A quick summary of the first volume in
the series is "Milo Moray meets Bass Foster" (not really, but the central
character is a mixture of the two).

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 14:25:36 GMT
From: jagardner@watmath.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Mhoram) writes:
>It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel, it's a
>definite loss.  Card's "Ender's Game" springs to mind.  I know the novel
>version won the Hugo, but the novella (novellete?) version was sooooo much
>better.  I wonder if the novel version wasn't mostly to set up "Speaker
>for the Dead" (which was great).

At Ad Astra (in Toronto this year), Card told the sequence of events.  He
was trying to write "Speaker for the Dead" and was having trouble getting
it to gel until he realized that the characters he was writing about were
actually characters from his short story "Ender's Game".  He then had to go
back, rewrite Ender's Game to introduce other characters needed in "Speaker
for the Dead", and publish the novel as a set-up.

By the way, he's working on "Ender's Children" now, and discussed the plot
in a fair amount of detail.  He says it helps him to describe the plot over
and over to people, because it gets things sorted out in this own mind.

And no, I'm not going to say anything about the plot.  So there!

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 11:41:36 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

One thing that was interesting in Ender's Game was the total anonymity of
the enemy. First, it was likely that the Ender's World was *not* Earth,
because its flag represented its forests and skies... and they weren't
green and blue. Given this, I couldn't help but wonder whether it wasn't
the Earth that he blew up.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 01:12:08 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

rjc@uk.ac.ed.aipna (Richard Caley) writes:
[ that I wrote, once or twice upon a time ]
>>When I started GEoD, I predicted the exact ending within the first 30
>>pages, and every major plot twist was clearly visible well in advance,
>Not really supprising when the central character is prescient.

Hmm.. Paul was prescient as well, yet I could not predict Dune in any way
that mattered.

>>just as it easy to predict the way the characters were going to react.
>A tribute yet ( 1/2 :-) )
>...
>If you can't tell in what way a central character is going to react when
>that much print had been spent then _that_ would be a bad book.

Not what I meant, nor necessarily true.  I can't always predict my best
friends, or even myself, so that argument doesn't hold water (or any other
liquid).  Further, what I meant was *before* the event had transpired.  In
other words, not only were major plot turns predictable, you could actually
predict *beyond* them.  Read Dune for what tells you about the events under
discussion.

>>  In other words, it may have been marvelously designed (I don't think
>>so, but for the sake of the argument), but it was *BORING*.
>I didn't find it so, but then it isn't exactly exciting either.
>Dune never was space opera.

Space opera and assorted space-em-and-chase-em (you mentioned thrillers)
are the only things that excite you?  I hope not!  To make the point quite
clear, I think that Dune is exciting, it's just them there sequels that are
pure wasted trees.

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 00:28:40 GMT
From: terman@portia.stanford.edu (Martin Terman)
Subject: Re: Deteriorating Series (Dune)

ACSH@uhupvm1.BITNET ("James N. Bradley") writes:
>I enjoyed the whole series.  In fact, I read all six novels and The Dune
>Encylopedia in just under a month.

Well, we all have minor character faults. I liked Dune, thought the next
two books stank. GEoD was better than the previous two, but still wasn't
much compared to Dune, and was not worth reading unless you had read the
previous three books. Heretics and Chapterhouse were the only books in the
sequels that compared decently to Dune and were readable on their own
merits.

I like the development of Duncan Idaho from minor schmuck in the first book
to being superpowered in his own right. (i.e. seeing the 'net' and rescuing
the ship from the gardeners)

In fact the last two books were good enough that I was sorry he died before
coming out with the next book in the series. There were strong hints at the
end of Chapterhouse about Sheena's plans causing some drastic change, but
it was never revealed what it was.

Martin Terman
terman@portia.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 14:45:59 GMT
From: RWC102@psuvm.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Moorcock

rjc@aipna.ed.ac.uk (Richard Caley) says:
>db@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) writes:
>>I think The Opium General is also JC stories.
>
>`The Opium General ' is a collection of stories. It contains `The
>Alchemists Question' - a JC novela also some stories about the third world
>war, probably some or all of those in `My Adventures in ...'  but I haven't
>read that.

It also contains a very virulent polemic on Heinlein entitled "Starship
Stormtroopers."  This is nasty.  It is perhaps one of the reasons that (God
I hate to use this word) New Wave sf received a hostile response from
traditional close-minded US fans.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 10:48:27 GMT
From: chi@csvax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

I speculated :
>If so, it would be possible to carry only one Trump - depicting the center
>- and use it to travel anywhere.

Rob Carriere (rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu) writes:
>That seems a fairly good argument that it isn't possible -- or it would've
>been done.

Not necessarily.  We've seen several times that Amberites have missed
something obvious as a result of their being so used to their own powers
and situation.  If someone had tried this, odds are Zelazny would have
mentioned the failed test somewhere.  (He's good at trivial details like
that.)

>(curious diction informational) By extrapolation of the
>Alice-in-Wonderland problem, it would seem that, as long as you can
>visualize the place well enough, you can go there.

Later, in the same article, I wondered:
>Can one use the Pattern to transport oneself somewhere where one has never
>been?

Karen Kessler (KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET) writes:
> Ask Coral.

I remember this; really, I do.  I was going to mention it, but since I
didn't remember her name, I couldn't do it without revealing a spoiler.  So
I didn't.  I'm entirely unsure what her case signifies.  (It's about time
for another book...)

Rob Carriere writes:
>By extrapolation of the Alice-in-Wonderland problem, it would seem that,
>as long as you can visualize the place well enough, you can go there.

My original question referred specifically to the question that started
this all: "How do you get to Corwin's universe?"  My question was actually
almost rhetorical.  How can you visualize a place in a different universe?
Since Corwin's pattern is presumably in two universes, when you simply
imagine a place to go to, why would you go to that place in the other
universe?  Why not a similar place in the "original" universe?

This assumes of course, that the implications of Coral's trip do not apply
here.

Curt Hagenlocher    
...!ames!elroy!cit-vax!chi
chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu
chi@citiago.bitnet   

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 13:26:01 GMT
From: steyn@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

>Can you use the Pattern to transport oneself somewhere where one has never
>been?

******SPOILER******

In _The Sign of Chaos_, someone (I forget her name- one of the newly
discovered members of the royal family (They seem to be popping up all
over, don't they?))  uses the pattern to transport herself somewhere she's
never been.  She just tells it to take her somewhere where she will be
happy.  Now, although we don't know whether it really worked, the evidence
seems to be that it does.  (Merlin thought it would just leave her standing
in the middle of the pattern).

Gavin

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 16:37:05 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher) writes, among other things:
>>Is it ever mentioned in the books that it is possible to trump into the
>>center of a Pattern?
>I'm fairly sure it isn't mentioned one way or the other.
>>If so, it would be possible to carry only one Trump - depicting the
>>center - and use it to travel anywhere.
>That seems a fairly good argument that it isn't possible -- or it
>would've been done.

Well, not really. Even if you could transport yourself smack-dab into the
center of the Pattern (doubt), you wouldn't necessarily use it to transport
yourself. The reason you can transport yourself anywhere from the Pattern
is because yoou've just _walked_ it. You've had your entire person taken
apart and putten back together again. You've become one with the underlying
structure of the universe(s) Just trumping to there wouldn't give you that
experience.

On the other hand, perhaps you can port yourself (or Something) to the
Pattern from another Pattern (say, the one in Rebma) This might be why the
door has a lock...

>>Can you use the Pattern to transport oneself somewhere where one has
>>never been?

But of course. You can walk Shadow to where you've never been; you can use
the Logrus to pull things from where you've never been.  Of course, if you
don't know too many details, the Pattern might just port you to a Shadow
which matches the facts you know.

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
508-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit           

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 20:29:52 GMT
From: choong@mit-amt (Choong Huei Seow)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher) writes:
>In _Nine_Princes_in_Amber_, Corwin, after walking the Rebma Pattern, uses
>it to transport himself to the center of the Amber Pattern.  Then, he uses
>the Amber pattern to put himself elsewhere in the castle, so that he can
>reach the library.
>
>Is it ever mentioned in the books that it is possible to trump into the
>center of a Pattern?  If so, it would be possible to carry only one Trump
>- depicting the center - and use it to travel anywhere.

I don't think this is what happened. Corwin used the Rebma Pattern to send
him to a hiding place near the library. He then made his way to the library
by conventional means.

Chris Joerg
cfj@wheaties.ai.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 00:11:33 GMT
From: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

cfj@wheaties.ai.mit.edu writes:
>chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher) writes:
>>In _Nine_Princes_in_Amber_, Corwin, after walking the Rebma Pattern, uses
>>it to transport himself to the center of the Amber Pattern.  Then, he
>>uses the Amber pattern to put himself elsewhere in the castle, so that he
>>can reach the library.
>>
>>Is it ever mentioned in the books that it is possible to trump into the
>>center of a Pattern?  If so, it would be possible to carry only one Trump
>>- depicting the center - and use it to travel anywhere.
>
>I don't think this is what happened. Corwin used the Rebma Pattern to send
>him to a hiding place near the library. He then made his way to the
>library by conventional means.

The first poster above has it right.  Corwin did use the Rebma Pattern to
transfer himself to the Amber Pattern and then to the hidey-hole that gave
him access to the library.  However I don't think this means that getting
to the center of the Pattern by ANY means necessarily allows you to then
transport yourself anywhere else.  After all, if that was the case then the
Amberites could just build a catwalk over the Pattern and lower themselves
down to the center of it and then teleport to wherever.

My interpretation of these events (aside from the thought that perhaps
Zelazny just slipped up) is that you build up the energy to teleport
yourself while walking the Pattern and lose that energy after you have
teleported to ALMOST anywhere in the universe/multiverse.  The exceptions
to this energy loss rule are the centers of any copies of the Pattern (the
ones in Rebma, Tir-na n'goth (sp?), Amber and the Primal Pattern) which are
somehow "insulated" so that you retain the energy necessary for
teleportation to any ordinary place.

Well that's my two cents, anyway.

William H. Ansley
Dept. of CS
226 Bell Hall
SUNY at Buffalo, NY  14260
ansley@gort.cs.buffalo.EDU
ansley@sunybcs.BITNET
ansley@sunybcs.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 88 16:04:43 GMT
From: oakhill!billr@cs.utexas.edu (bill richardson)
Subject: Hep me, Hep me

I remember two short stories I once read, which I'd like to read again, but
I don't know who the authors are or where the stories are collected, and
I'm not entirely sure about the plots (which is why I want to read them
again).

The first story was about some aliens who visit Earth to sell RNA-based
pills which carry knowledge of various disciplines, such as piloting,
mathematics, unarmed combat with giant worms (not quite as useful), etc.
One of the aliens gets drunk and gives away some good stuff he shouldn't
have to the protagonist, who later has to convince the Earth powers-that-be
that Earth should build these aliens a launching laser for their STL ship,
so they don't blow up the sun to make their own light source.

The second story was about a man who tried to invent a teleportation
device, but although stuff disappears, it doesn't reappear in the receiver,
so he sells it as a garbage disposal.  This is fine for a while, but then
alien garbage starts coming back out of all the units.  Turns out the
garbage was being transported to some alien world, where the inhabitants
got tired of getting old orange peels and coffee grounds dumped on them,
and figured out a way to return the favor.  I think the name of this was
"Litterbug," but of course I'm not sure.

Anyone remember anything similar to these?  Thanks.

Bill Richardson
ut-sally!oakhill!elmer!billr

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 88 21:56:38 GMT
From: summers@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (James Donovan Summers)
Subject: Re: Hep me, Hep me

billr@oakhill.UUCP (bill richardson) writes:
>The first story was about some aliens who visit Earth to sell RNA-based
>pills which carry knowledge of various disciplines, such as piloting,
>[plot summary]

This short story is from Larry Niven's "A Hole in Space." I forget the
title of the actual work.

Jim Summers

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 22:19:54 GMT
From: smith@cos.com (Steve Smith)
Subject: Re: Hep me, Hep me

billr@oakhill.UUCP (bill richardson) writes:
>The second story was about a man who tried to invent a teleportation
>device, but although stuff disappears, it doesn't reappear in the
>receiver, so he sells it as a garbage disposal.

Try "Dusty Zebra", by Alan E. Nourse.  I don't know where it's collected; I
don't think he has too many collections out.

Lots of fun.  Too bad your request turned out to be a spoiler.

Steve
smith@cos.com
{uunet sundc decuac hqda-ai hadron}!cos!smith

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 19 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 267

Today's Topics:

		   Films - This Island Earth (4 msgs) &
                           Alien (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 88 20:42:14 GMT
From: eric@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Eric Cotton)
Subject: Can anyone identify this movie?

I need help with the name of an old (circa 1955 or so) Sci-Fi movie.  While
I don't remember much of the plot, I do recall the following snipits:

   Man and woman are "kidnapped" by a flying saucer that hovers over the
   couple's small aircraft and then pulls the plane into the bottom of the
   saucer.

   Passengers travelling in the saucer must be prepared for
   (faster-than-light?) space travel by entering clear cylinders (on end)
   which perform whatever magic.

   Saucer flys to a planet devastated by a war.

   The saucer's owner has an bug-eyed, big-brained, clawed alien handyman
   (who goes on a rampage towards the end of the movie).

   Saucer plunges into the ocean at the end of the movie after aforemention
   couple escape with their plane.

Extra points if you can identify the monster.  Please email.  Thanks.

Eric Cotton
Commodore-Amiga
1200 Wilson Drive                              
West Chester, PA 19380       
(215) 431-9100
{rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 88 13:44:20 GMT
From: jcmorris@mitre-bedford.arpa (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this movie?

eric@cbmvax.UUCP (Eric Cotton) writes:
>I need help with the name of an old (circa 1955 or so) Sci-Fi movie.
>While I don't remember much of the plot, I do recall the following
>snipits:
>
>   Man and woman are "kidnapped" by a flying saucer that
>   hovers over the couple's small aircraft and then pulls
>   the plane into the bottom of the saucer.
>   [etc.]

The movie is _This Island Earth_.  I don't recall the cast or even the
studio, so I can't help you there.  If someone can fill those items in, I
would appreciate it since I've used the plot to illustrate some
presentations on computer security.

"Computer Security?" you ask.  Sure.  The plot begins to build when the
Good Guys receive an unsolicited shipment of parts with assembly
instructions, but no indication of who sent it and what it might do.  They
build it, and discover that it is a combination communicator/raygun (which
can and does burn holes in steel plates).  Doesn't this sound like an
analog of the problem the personal computer world is having with various
Trojan horse programs?  (Let's hear it for SOURCE CODE DISTRIBUTION!!)

The plot never won any Academy Awards (and never deserved them), but it's a
good space opera nevertheless.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 88 12:55:30 GMT
From: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Dumpmaster John)
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this movie?

jcmorris@mbunix (Morris) writes:
>"Computer Security?" you ask.  Sure.  The plot begins to build when the
>Good Guys receive an unsolicited shipment of parts with assembly
>instructions, but no indication of who sent it and what it might do.  They
>build it, and discover that it is a combination communicator/raygun (which
>can and does burn holes in steel plates).  Doesn't this sound like an
>analog of the problem the personal computer world is having with various
>Trojan horse programs?  (Let's hear it for SOURCE CODE DISTRIBUTION!!)

Opps you haven't seen the movie in a while.  As I remeber he asked a lab to
send over a super transistor or something like that.  And they didn't get
the part they wanted but just for kicks they hooked it up anyway.  And
Guess what. It worked, even better than the part they wanted.  So they got
on the fax or teletype or what ever and asked for a catalog.  And it was
sent and they found something that looked cool.  And asked for it and got
it.  And that was the transmitter.

John C. Orthoefer               
University of Florida
UUCP: ...ihnp4!codas!uflorida!beach.cis.ufl.edu!jco
Internet: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 88 18:21:22 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@ucsd.edu (Jim )
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this movie?

jcmorris@mbunix (Morris) writes:
>eric@cbmvax.UUCP (Eric Cotton) writes:
>>I need help with the name of an old (circa 1955 or so) Sci-Fi movie.
>The movie is _This Island Earth_.  I don't recall the cast or even the
>studio, so I can't help you there.

From "The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction Movies":
   Director: Joseph Newman,
   The Destruction of "Metaluna" was directed by Jack Arnold,
   Producer: William Alland,
   Screenplay: Franklin Cohen and Edward G. O'Callaghan,
   Cinematography: Clifford Stine,
   Special Effects: Clifford Stine and Stanley Horsley,
   Leading Players:
      Jeff Morrow,
      Faith Domergue,
      Rex Reason (as the leader of the "Metalunans"),
      Russel Johnson,
      Douglas Spencer,
      Reg Parton,
      Ed Parker.

The film was released in 1955, I don't have a studio or distributer
name.

J. J. Whelan
Celerity Computing

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 04:43:44 GMT
From: juniper!mentat@cs.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

I'll start off by saying that I've ALSO read the book and some of the fan-
related notes on Alien.  This may have clouded my memory somewhat.  I will
also confess that I've been affected by Frank Herbert's ideas on vegetable/
insect intelligence, so I might be considered an "alien intelligence
liberal."  With that out of the way... :-)

I've cross-posted this to sf-lovers; perhaps we can get someone who's seen
the movie more recently to comment.

I think the aliens in ALIEN were intelligent.  My points were:

1.  The spacecraft on the planet.  The absolute AMAZEMENT by the Nostromo
    crew that it was alien; I got the strong impression it was a "first
    contact ever" sort of thing.

Reasoning: it was stated that the Nostromo was pre-programmed to divert to
any emergency beacons.  I believe it was also stated that there was a
compulsory examination required for any signs of intelligent life.  Since
"Alien" only took place a couple hundred years in the future, it can be
assumed that alien life is a sufficient novelty to have required such
in-depth inspection.  To find two significant alien life forms at once
(even IF only one was intelligent) is unlikely.  The relative lack of
griping from the flight and scientific crew about the necessity of looking
into the matter is further evidence that they realized the importance of
alien contact (but, however, in *Aliens*, we get the impression that alien
contact isn't all that special).


>2.  Laser protection system for the "eggs" in the spacecraft's hold.

There was a laser optical effect surrounding the eggs.  It apparently
wasn't destructive, since the alien jumped right through it.  I interpreted
it as being *protective*, such as against bacteria which might have
affected the embryonic creatures.

At least one respondent just classed it as a special effect.

I still think it was a hold: due to the lack of any other life forms on the
planet, it's quite likely the "big" alien brought them in with it.  My
general impression is that it was a one-man cargo ship, with the eggs as
cargo.  I can't see one alien (jumping out of the mother's chest, if that
was the case) producing ALL of those eggs.

>3.  Apparent space suit on the dead "mother."

Most people have replied that the mother was a different creature.
However, the size similarities between the "mother" in Aliens and the
"mother" in Alien make me think they were the same.

Another person asked why, if the aliens in Aliens were able to survive in
the atmosphere, the "mother" in Alien required a space suit: but wasn't it
pointed out that the planet was terraformed?  If the aliens can survive in
a normal atmosphere, they could probably have performed as well as the
Marine detachment did.  In no case in "Alien" did we see an alien
performing in the atmosphere of the alien world (apart from jumping on the
helmet).

As for the "weapons console" bit...  It was noted that the "mother" in
Alien may have been sitting at a weapons console.  I got the impression
that it was more of a control couch, which would have been consistent with
the single-crewmember status of the space ship.  In addition, the large
size of the alien may have encouraged a one-seat-does-all-type position.
In any event, I think the spaceship was more advanced than that of the
technology that spawned the Nostromo.

Lastly, wasn't the "mother" from Aliens that was displayed in public in
California (and later torched) called "the mother?"

4.  Commentary by Bishop/its mission (i.e., revealed by computer and
    himself).

5.  Highly adaptive behavior of the alien on the Nostromo.

There are a number of things concerning the alien's behavior that can be
considered intelligent.  Its adaptability.  Its rapid adjustment to the
different forms of tactics used against it.  Its selective targeting (i.e.,
the cat was never molested).  It was certainly hostile and savage, but I
viewed it as intelligent, as possibly out-thinking the defenders at any
turn.  That's what made the movie "work" for me.  And I was led on in that
thinking by the above factors, including Bishop's description of it as the
ultimate weapon.

The impression I got from Aliens was entirely different.  Aliens was more
of a chase film, sort of like one of those nightmares where you can never
move fast enough.  The alien in Alien seemed to be more on the ball than
the ones in Aliens did.

Any way one looks at it, the movie works.  I will concede that it's rather
difficult to argue *for* the aliens being intelligent, due to the lack of
any specific commentary in the movie.  But then again, we can't really say
they weren't.  Good SF leaves itself open to different
interpretations...:-) However, I still think that there are certain
inconsistencies between Alien and Aliens which set the movies apart
significantly.

Robert Dorsett
University of Texas at Austin
{ames,utah-cs,rutgers}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!juniper!mentat
mentat@juniper.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 09:19:34 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

mentat@juniper (Robert Dorsett) writes:

>I think the aliens in ALIEN were intelligent.  My points were:

  I think you want it to be intelligent, since the movie works better for
you that way.

>1.  The spacecraft on the planet.  The absolute AMAZEMENT by the Nostromo
>crew that it was alien; I got the strong impression it was a "first
>contact ever" sort of thing.

  Even if true, utterly irrelevant. Recall everyone but you has the idea
there were two different kinds of creatures: the alien spaceship builders,
and the ALIEN itself.

>To find two significant alien life forms at once (even IF only one was
>intelligent) is unlikely.

  This begs the question, and if your point is valid (I don't think it is)
works *against* the alien being intelligent under the two-species
interpretation.

>I still think it was a hold: due to the lack of any other life forms on
>the planet, it's quite likely the "big" alien brought them in with it.

  Presumably whoever was running the spaceship brought it there, perhaps as
an emergency measure.

>>3.  Apparent space suit on the dead "mother."
>Most people have replied that the mother was a different creature.
>However, the size similarities between the "mother" in Aliens and the
>"mother" in Alien make me think they were the same.

  Weak evidence. Why the chest trauma, on your theory?

>5.  Highly adaptive behavior of the alien on the Nostromo.
>There are a number of things concerning the alien's behavior that can be
>considered intelligent.  Its adaptability.  Its rapid adjustment to the
>different forms of tactics used against it.

  It certainly wasn't at all stupid if you think of it as an animal.
Compared to a human being, however, it *was* stupid. It held all the high
cards on the Nostromo, and still lost. In Aliens, it also could have done
better, but perhaps that is your complaint. In any case, a creature which
does not develop and learn over a course of some years is not likely to be
intelligent in the same sense as a human: the alien may be thought of as a
sort of intelligent super-insect operating on in good part instinct.

> Its selective targeting (i.e., the cat was never molested).

  The cat was very small, and the child in Aliens was smaller than the
adults. Shows nothing.

>  It was certainly hostile and savage, but I viewed it as intelligent, as
>possibly out-thinking the defenders at any turn.

  Why? What did it do that was smart?

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 23:42:40 GMT
From: perry@cat12.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

mentat@juniper.UUCP (Robert Dorsett) writes:
>>3.  Apparent space suit on the dead "mother."
>Most people have replied that the mother was a different creature.
>However, the size similarities between the "mother" in Aliens and the
>"mother" in Alien make me think they were the same.

I'd think similarity in form would be more of an indicator.  A hippo is
similar in size to an elephant, but they're different beasties.

>Lastly, wasn't the "mother" from Aliens that was displayed in public in
>California (and later torched) called "the mother?"

If you're referring to the Giger statue (from Alien) that got torched, I
believe it was called "The Pilot".  You see, either it was hauling the
alien eggs as cargo (I'd never thought of that before) or its ship had been
infiltrated at some point.

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St
Omro WI 54963
perry@garfield.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 15:57:57 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: ALIEN VS. ALIENS

   I thought I would sit down and give my thoughts on this whole alien
discussion based on what I have read and heard.
   The big creature in Alien was the pilot of the derelict spaceship.
Somehow, it crash landed on the planet and the pilot was or became infected
with an alien.  It was not the mother.  If you remember, it had a big hole
in its chest where a baby alien had exited its body.  The crew of the
Nostromo was secretly sent down to the planet to investigate it for "the
company".
   The directive of the company was to investigate any signal that may have
been of extraterrestrial origin.  Thus, lifeforms may have been found on
other planets but none that expressed intelligence.  As it turned out, this
was not only a signal, but a warning to stay away from the deadly cargo
that was on the derelict ship.  Hence, the reference to "bugs" by the
marines in Aliens.
   As for the aliens, I have always understood them to be nothing more than
big insects.  They have workers/warriors, drones and a queen.  Their
society is set up much like an ant's or bee's.  In the first movie, it
seems that the Nostromo's crew brought to life a drone or worker.  In
Aliens, a whole colony of aliens, queen and all, was begun.
  The only mother is the queen that we saw in Aliens.  It seems that the
aliens have a primary parasitic form which is the face-hugger that Kane
brought on board in Alien.  This form then plants the secondary parasitic
form into the host and like a tapeworm, it feeds and grows in the host's
digestive system.  Then, at a time of maturity, it expels itself from the
host.  It is analagous to the earthly wasps that paralyze spiders, lay
their eggs in them and then the babies eat their way out of the spider, a
ready-made living dinner.
   As for intelligence, I think that they had intelligence like ants or
bees but not like us.  They were social insects so to speak and I think
their intelligence was limited to that level.  As for having smarts like
you and I, well, that is stretching it a bit.  I think that they were just
very feroocious, (oops) big ugly insects that had no other goal than to
reproduce themselves.  The only mother to speak of is the queen form that
we saw in Aliens.  You could see in Aliens that all she did was lay eggs
while the workers hunted down more hosts and cared for the young workers
and drones that were produced from the human hosts.
   Well, I must be going.  I will hopefully talk about this some more when
I get some feedback.
   Bye!

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 19 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 268

Today's Topics:

	   Books - Carey & Cherryh (2 msgs) & Delany (2 msgs) &
                   Heinlein & Kurtz & Robinson (3 msgs) &
                   Vance & Sequels (2 msgs) & Stories into Novels &
                   Recommendations (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 07:17:26 GMT
From: juniper!yelorose@cs.utexas.edu (Bob Mosley III)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Novels

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro) writes:
>chahn@iemisi.UUCP (Chris Hahn) writes:
>>Join the campaign to make Diane Carey's giant Startrek noverl into a
>>Television mini-series or movie.......
> 
> DIANE CAREY!!?!  Creatress of Lt. Piper?  Writer of Ghost Ship?
> ACK!  PHFFFTH!  GAK!

...my sympathies exactly. If I want to see female Kirks, I'll re-read
Marshak & Culbreath's "The Procrustean Petard"...

> Final Frontier wasn't as horrid as her other books, but movie-ize or
> tv-ize a deserving author like Diane Duane before Carey.

...actualy, Carey got the idea from the original proposal for the new Star
Trek series, back when Ted Turner was looking into showing the series on
WTBS. The show would have been along the same lines as "Final Frontier",
with the emphasis being that this was BEFORE TOS, so anything at all could
happen (such as all-out war with the Klingons, etc,etc,).

> (Writer of this letter attempts to envision a Diane Carey book being
> movied) (His brain achieves the visualization and promptly terminates
> itself from the horror and boredom of it)

...nononono...imagine Vonda K/SinTyre's "Enterprise" being turned into a
movie. Now THAT is a horror story!!!!

(by the way, is Mike Fairy...er...Farren still lurking about the nodes, or
have he and Vonda gone and crawled back under a rock?)

> (Writer's lifeless body crumples and he is later found by friends slumped
> over his terminal - cause of death?  The Carey Syndrome.)

....nah, it'd more likely be something like "The Entropy Effect"..

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 16:16:53 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Hani vs. Humans

clark@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Clark Brooks) writes:
>survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James  -- Staff Account) writes:
>>At a convention in Dallas several years ago C.J. Cherryh said that all
>>(or very nearly all) of her books were set in the same universe.  So the
>>connection between Downbelow Station and the Chanur books is real.
>
>  In fact, "Cyteen" specifically mentions Compact space. At that time,
> presumably shortly after contact, the Compact is a "problem for Earth and
> the Alliance". Concurrently, only three planets have significant
> populations, one of them Gehenna. Apparently the actual number of people
> off of Earth is only several million.

O.K. Somebody who's actually read CYTEEN.  What did you think of it? I
found Ari a fascinating (and much more sympathetic than the nice part of me
thinks she should have been) character.  It can also be read on the level
of a murder mystery --who the hell really did the deed, and WHY.  The
author leaves you wondering at the end but with the feeling that the clues
are all there if you only read them right.  Anybody care to talk about this
one with proper spoiler warnings for those who are waiting for the
paperback?

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 88 18:18:06 GMT
From: flee@blitz (Felix Lee)
Subject: Cyteen (minor spoilers)  (Re: Hani vs. Humans)

I'm pretty sure Ari's death is answered by Ari2 in one of the transcripts.
The scope of Ari's manipulation is marvellous and frightening...

What's puzzling me right now is Denys's actions at the end.  How much of it
was done for deliberate effect?  How much of it was flux-thinking?  Trying
to untangle all the psychs is a trial.  Nearly everyone is firmly in
control of their actions.  Justin is the only (non-azi) who isn't psyching
everyone he talks to.

Cyteen is a massive book, about as long as the Chanur trilogy, and hard to
grip all at once.  (I hope it doesn't get split in paperback)

Anxiously (and eagerly) awaiting further news from Cherryh's universe,

Felix Lee
flee@blitz.cs.psu.edu
*!psuvax1!flee

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 02:59:44 GMT
From: ins_ayjk@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Young Je Koh)
Subject: Sam R. Delany/Babel-17

I've been having great difficulty finding any of Sam Delany's works around.
I've tried many libraries, bookstores, and even no luck in a SF specialty
book store.  I'd greatly appreciate any information on where or how I can
obtain his works.

One book which bothers me the most is _Babel-17_.  Could someone on the net
give a brief summary of the book so I can possibly identify it with
something I read a long time back???

Thanks

yjk

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 88 17:49:41 GMT
From: kwatts%tahquitz@sun.com (Kevin L. Watts)
Subject: Bable-17

Bable-17 is about a conflict between two interstellar groups, The Alliance
and some other. The alliance is the good guys.  The Bad guys develop a
subversive language for use in sabotage and what not. The alliance
intercepts transmissions during the sabotage missions and begin to study
the language. The language is subversive though so any one who learns it
becomes a tool of the bad guys. The Heroin figures out what is going on and
saves the day.

Sorry if my outline doesn't sound so good. I thought the book was great!

Kev

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 88 18:59:19 GMT
From: tiedeman@acf3.nyu.edu (Eric S. Tiedemann)
Subject: "The Number of the Beast" abridged?

In the May 1980 Analog Spider Robinson warned us that the American edition
of Beast was an abridged version of the New English Library hardcover.
I've since heard this repeated several times but have seen no conclusive
evidence.  I have both editions and have noticed no differences other than
title, phrasing of dedication and minor editorial matters such as
abbreviations and the use of single quotes.  Does anyone have anything to
add?

Thanks,

Eric
tiedeman@acf3.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 88 00:21:06 GMT
From: glenda@m-net (Glenda F Andre')
Subject: Re: Deryni 

mark@inmet.UUCP writes:
>... does anyone know of any non-Deryni books by Kurtz? I find it hard to
>imagine her writing in a non-medieval setting, but I'd like to try it.

She also wrote _Lamas Night_, about witchcraft cults during World War II.

Glenda Andre'

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 14:29:00 GMT
From: bradley!frodo@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: "Time Pressure" by Spider Robinson

I read _Time_Pressure_ in hardback (from a friend who gave it rave
recommendation) just before it came out in paperback.  I intend to (when
the budget allows) go out and snarf up a copy, and maybe an extra to give
away.  I would say that it is the best Science Fiction I've read in the
last year, maybe two.  The style was all Spider, and Spider at his best,
and the story held me all the way through.  Once I started, I didn't put it
down until I was done.

Get it, read it, love it.  It's a great book.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 11:21:05 GMT
From: domo@sphinx.co.uk (Dominic Dunlop)
Subject: Re: 3 Laws of Robotics and Murder

LS.SRB@DEEP-THOUGHT.MIT.EDU ("Stephen R. Balzac") writes:
>As I recall from "The Naked Sun" A robot is tricked into committing a
>murder unwittingly.  Something like "Add this liquid to John's drink."

Reminiscient of the android Finn in Spider Robinson's _Callahan's Bar_
stories.  He couldn't prevent himself from destroying the Earth (no
follower of Asimov's laws he), but he could give a subtle hint about how
another might prevent him...

I'm not going to spoil it any more.  Read the book.  Good antidote for
depression (unless you take exception to its whiff of libertarianism, or
don't like appalling puns).

Dominic Dunlop
domo@sphinx.co.uk  
domo@riddle.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 88 16:00:55 GMT
From: brian@radio.uucp (Brian Glendenning)
Subject: Re: "Time Pressure" by Spider Robinson

This is probably a good time to post my summary. A little while ago I asked
whether "Time Pressure" by Spider Robinson was worth reading (I have mixed
feelings about his novels). My thanks to:

frodo@bradley.UUCP
brett kuehner <bvk%hhb@princeton.edu>
Mark Bernstein <encore!markb@linus.uucp> 
Mark Zenier	uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz
Jeff Deifik <jdeifik@vlsif.isi.edu>
Peter Sarrett (pgs@cs.brown.edu)

The reviews were mixed. 3 yes, 3 no. Response ranged from great to awful.
So, for me it's going to move way down on the list of possible books to
buy.  It does seem safe to say if you like all of Spider's other novels
you'll like this one, though.

Brian Glendenning
Radio astronomy
University of Toronto
brian@radio.astro.toronto.edu
uunet!utai!radio!brian
glendenn@utorphys.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 02:20:47 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet (Merlin of Chaos)
Subject: Undiscussed fantasy series

There's been a lot of talk (ever since it appeared) about whether or not
_The Lord of the Rings_ is the best fantasy series ever.  This article is
not even ATTEMPTING to start that discussion up again, so please don't.

However, much of the evaluation of modern fantasy involves an analysis of
how much a given book/set of books plagiarizes from Tolkien.  A good
example is the _Sword of Shanarra_ trilogy, which is basically a direct
rehash of TLotR.

Looking through the postings here lately, I am astonished to find that one
of my favorite fantasy series, one which I feel "borrows" very little from
any other books, is not at all discussed!

QUESTION: have any of the rest of you read/liked/disliked/hated/loved/etc.
the books by Jack Vance entitled "Lyoness" and "The Green Pearl?"  The
newer editions of them have been retitled (minorly) to "Lyoness I:
Suldrun's Garden" and "Lyoness II: The Green Pearl."

It strikes me as odd that they don't seem to come up in this newsgroup's
conversations much; I think that they deserve mention in any comparative
discussion of modern fantasy....

Bitnet: cxt105@psuvm
Uucp:   ...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105
Internet: cxt105@psuvm.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 88 17:13:57 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: A good year for sequels

Reading the current issue of Locus, I see that the next six months are
going to bring a large number of sequels -- some of them eagerly awaited.
I don't have the entire list with me, but I'll note a few:

"The Chantry Guild", by Gordon R. Dickson, is due out this month.  In
hardcover, unfortunately, but a new Childe book is always welcome.

"Divided Allegiance", by Elizabeth Moon, is also due out this month.  It's
the sequel to "Sheepfarmer's Daughter", which I enjoyed greatly.
(Actually, though I liked the book on its own merits, I deplore it as yet
another addition to the growing subgenre of military sf/fantasy.)

At the end of this year we'll be seeing "A Matter for Men" and "A Day for
Damnation", by David Gerrold.  Presumably these will have been changed
enough that the new publisher can sell them as "substantively different"
from the original versions.  (The way the current version of Diane Duane's
"Door into Fire" is "substantively different" from the original.)  The good
news is that we can expect book three ("A Rage for Revenge", if it hasn't
been retitled) not long after.

"The High-Tech Knight", by Leo Frankowski is due out in February.  This is
the ong-awaited sequel to the very enjoyable "Crosstime Engineer".  We
shouldn't have to wait so long for books three and four, as I believe the
publisher refused to print HTK until the entire set was submitted.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 19:44:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: A good year for sequels

Any word on when the next volume of the Tales of Alvin Maker will appear?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 21:47:06 GMT
From: cjh@petsd.ccur.com (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes:
>steveg@squid (Mhoram) writes:
>>It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel,
>>it's a definite loss.
>
>W Miller A CANTICLE FOR LIEBOWITZ is a clear cut exception.

I'm not sure.  The three parts of ACFL were published separately as
novelettes in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction during the
1950's.  The book version contains some material that I don't remember from
the magazine.  However, the expansion in going from the three novelettes to
the book was modest.

It may be that each story idea has an optimal size.  When the original idea
did well as a novelette, it might not do well as a full-sized novel.  And
conversely?  Well... imagine a 125-page version of The Lord of the Rings.

Regards,

Chris
...!rutgers!petsd!cjh            

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 88 01:39:48 GMT
From: ugcherk@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Request for Reading Materials

c60c-4au@e260-4b.berkeley.edu (Erik Talvola) writes:
>I would recommend the Dragon Lance series by Margaret Weis and Tracy
>Hickman.  There are 2 trilogies of novels, and 1 trilogy of short stories
>by various authors (mostly not Weis or Hickman), and a new trilogy just
>starting with 1 book in it by another author.  The 2 novel trilogies are
>both excellent...  and I highly recommend them for Tolkien lovers.

I have read the two Weis-Hickman novel trilogies. Overall, I do not think
they can be said to approach Tolkien in any way except in a certain noble
attempt on their part to investigate the power of brotherly love. However,
even this is sporadic and not always well done. The 6 books are not all of
the same quality. From what I remember, I would rate them thusly:

1st book, Chronicles: strictly superficial, ridiculously like a
  blow-by-blow description of a D&D game (you can almost see the dice
  rolls)

2nd book, Chronicles: worlds better than the 1st book but still mediocre;
  less like a D&D game and more like a story

3rd book, Chronicles: still getting better; very above average, though
  Weis and Hickman will never, in my opinion, be very "deep" authors

1st book, Legends: really getting good now; less superficial, though the
  authors are certainly not "profound"

2nd book, Legends: also very good; perhaps the best in the series so far

3rd book, Legends: WHOA! *BIG* downhill slide; beginning of the book is
  nearly as bad as the first Chronicles book, but by the end of the book I
  think this one tops even that. Don't read this last book. It is really
  silly and stupid at times. Not like a D&D game as Chronicles 1 was, but
  just plain simpering and foolish and obnoxious.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax,various others]!sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 88 03:07:00 GMT
From: c60c-4au@e260-4a.berkeley.edu (Erik Talvola)
Subject: Re: Request for Reading Materials

ugcherk@sunybcs.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>c60c-4au@e260-4b.berkeley.edu (Erik Talvola) writes:
>>I would recommend the Dragon Lance series by Margaret Weis and Tracy
>>Hickman.  
>>I highly recommend them for Tolkien lovers.
>I have read the two Weis-Hickman novel trilogies. Overall, I do not think
>they can be said to approach Tolkien in any way except in a certain noble
>attempt on their part to investigate the power of brotherly love. However,
>even this is sporadic and not always well done. The 6 books are not all of
>the same quality. From what I remember, I would rate them thusly:
>
[individual descriptions deleted]

I didn't mean to imply that the Dragonlance books were as good as Tolkien,
but that if you enjoy Tolkein, you would probably enjoy the Dragonlance
books.  I agree with you that the last book of the 2nd trilogy was a real
let-down, but all in all, I thought that the series was better than the
majority of fantasy being written that was of the generic Quest to Save the
Universe type genre.  For example, Terry Brooks "Shanarra" series has been
recommended to me, but after reading the trilogy (which wasn't too bad), I
was very disappointed.  The Sword of Shanarra was a complete and total
ripoff of Tolkien - nearly copying scenes identically from Tolkien.  The
Dragonlance books may not be "great", but I feel that they are above the
average in fantasy writing, and one of my personal favorite series.
 
Erik Talvola
c60c-4au@web.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 05:26:15 GMT
From: shimrod@rhialto.sgi.com (IOUN)
Subject: Multi-faceted reponse

SPOILER/FLAME coming up, regarding Eddings... (also some recommendations)

I noticed people touting Eddings and the DragonLance (Weis & Hickman)
books. Please, read something good instead. Eddings, in particular, I
cannot take seriously. Anyone who writes a book in which a god of ultimate
evil dies because no one loves him is missing a few important concepts in
fantasy writing. Add to this the insipidly slow development, agonizingly
predictable plot, and ridiculous cardboard characters, and you've got...a
bestseller! The DragonLance books are similarly sickening. Perhaps a bit
better. Cough. Heck, I read them in the bookstore.

So as not to be entirely negative, let me suggest something to read
instead. Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ is quite excellent (and he's
just come out with a post-series coda which is unbelievable).

_Soldier of the Mist_ by Wolfe also looks good.

Jack Vance writes some very dry and witty fantasy; I recommend Lyonesse and
Cugel's Saga. His science fiction (not that there's any real difference) is
also good. 

Silverberg's _Tom o' Bedlam_ is a nice piece.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 19 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 269

Today's Topics:

	   Books - Brooks & Clarke (3 msgs) & Zelazny (6 msgs) &
                   Book Requests (2 msgs) & Some Answers (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 88 20:35:27 GMT
From: ugcherk@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Request for Reading Materials

c60c-4au@e260-4a.berkeley.edu (Erik Talvola) writes:
>For example, Terry Brooks "Shanarra" series has been recommended to me,
>but after reading the trilogy (which wasn't too bad), I was very
>disappointed.  The Sword of Shanarra was a complete and total ripoff of
>Tolkein - nearly copying scenes identically from Tolkien.

I read the first two Shannara books a long time ago. I enjoyed them
immensely at the time, but then I don't think my literary maturity was very
high in those days. It was disappointing that the first book was such a
photocopy Tolkien's work. One wonders at times where the line between
imitation and plagiarism lies...
  I have been waiting (and waiting, and waiting, and wwwwaaaaaaaaaiting...)
for the third one to come out in paperback before reading it. It *finally*
has, but the price that nasty corporation is asking is pretty steep for a
paperback, I think. It is obvious that they have been milking the
popularity of the first two books for all it was worth, what with their
witholding of the mass-market edition for so many *years* until they got
rid of the hardcovers and trades, and now they are charging almost as much
for the mm.  as for the trade!
  Screw them, I'll buy it used. Or borrow it. Or get it from the library.
Or something (NOT NEW, NEVER!!!!)....

Kevin Cherkauer
...sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 05:58:30 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: 2001: book and movie

Steve Greenland writes:
>I like the novel of 2001 a lot, and I think it's better than the Sentinel.

It's just that we don't find out much about the aliens.  Clarke has a bad
habit of applying his own law very heavily in a number of his stories.

>It neither diluted or changed the short version, and was more interesting.
>That's all I meant.  (The reference to Kubrick was just sort of an offhand
>guess, but I'm pretty sure that the plot was developed by both of them in
>tandem, not just Clarke 'copying' the script plot into prose form.

Actually, I don't know much about exactly how much Clarke and Kubrick
contributed to the story.  I think there's a book out on the making of
2001, but I haven't read it.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 11:11:25 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu
Subject: The Sentinel => 2001 

steveg@squid (Mhoram) writes:
>The only exception I can think of is the expansion of "The Sentinel" into
>2001, and I'm not sure that counts, since Kubrick was so involved with it.

Also, Clarke has objected to this description of 2001.  (? Memory fog ?)

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 16:30:32 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay C. Smith)
Subject: Re: 2001: book and movie

dant@mrloog.LA.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Steve Greenland writes:
>>The reference to Kubrick was just sort of an offhand guess, but I'm
>>pretty sure that the plot was developed by both of them in tandem, not
>>just Clarke 'copying' the script plot into prose form.
>
>Actually, I don't know much about exactly how much Clarke and Kubrick
>contributed to the story.  I think there's a book out on the making of
>2001, but I haven't read it.

I've read it, and the way I remember it is that Kubrick and Clarke used the
idea behind "The Sentinel" (Kubrick selected this short story from several
of Clarke's that were considered) to write a novel-length treatment.  The
screenplay was written from the treatment, mainly by Kubrick with input
from Clarke.  The novel was written from the treatment solely by Clarke,
but influenced by changes that Kubrick made in the screenplay.  Originally
the credit for the screenplay was to have been Kubrick and Clarke (which it
was), while the novel was to have been Clarke and Kubrick, but Kubrick
declined in the end.

References (from memory): _The Making of "2001"_ edited by Jerome Agel and
_The Lost Worlds of "2001"_ by Arthur C. Clarke.

Jay C. Smith
uucp:   ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 19:15:16 GMT
From: kwatts%tahquitz@sun.com (Kevin L. Watts)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) writes:
 > I think you would run into a bit of difficultly there.  It is *very* hard
> to walk shadow anywhere near the primal pattern and, if you recall the
> trumps won't work there either.

In one of the books it is revealed that Brand had been on the primal
pattern he is like a human(pardon the expresion) Trump) and contacts Merlin
via Trump, stabs him and lets the Blood of Amber flow on to the Primal
pattern causing damage to Dworkin's mind. So there!

Kev

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 15:43:09 GMT
From: KXK112@psuvm.bitnet (Karen Kessler)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

kwatts%tahquitz@Sun.COM (Kevin L. Watts) says:
>KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) writes:
>> I think you would run into a bit of difficultly there.  It is *very*
>> hard to walk shadow anywhere near the primal pattern and, if you recall
>> the trumps won't work there either.
>In one of the books it is revealed that Brand had been on the primal
>pattern attern (he is like a human(pardon the expresion) Trump) and
>contacts Merlin via a Trump, stabs him and lets the Blood of Amber flow on
>to the Primal pattern, causing damage to Dworkin's mind. So there!

Brand did contact a person (Martin, by the way, not Merlin) when he was
already on the pattern.  He did not trump into the middle of it.  Brand
didn't actually bring Martin through at that time -- Martin blocked him --
but I'm sure he would have been able to.  I'm going to assume that Brand
was a special case.  A little mental instability seems to do wonders for
your magical abilities.  When Corwin and co. first encountered the primal
pattern their trumps were "dead".

Dworkin's mind was damaged before blood was spilled on the pattern
(although that certainly didn't help matters any).  He was originally sent
to that little hidey-hole by the primal pattern by Oberon because he was
coming unhinged.  That sets the time before Oberon's disappearance and
before the black road.

I wonder if a trump of a pattern would have to include the pattern in
itself?  Then you'd end up 'walking' it whenever you used that trump
anyway.  (just a bit of mind bending on my part)

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 22:53:09 GMT
From: mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

>Brand did contact a person (Martin, by the way, not Merlin) when he was
>already on the pattern.  He did not trump into the middle of it.  Brand
>didn't actually bring Martin through at that time -- Martin blocked him --
>but I'm sure he would have been able to.  I'm going to assume that Brand
>was a special case.  A little mental instability seems to do wonders for
>your magical abilities.  When Corwin and co.  first encountered the primal
>pattern their trumps were "dead".

I'm in the midst of rereading the The Courts of Chaos right now. The trumps
are most definitely active at the site of the primal pattern. First, we
have the proof of Martin's stabbing. But we get that by hearsay. But also,
in the beginning of tCoC, we have Corwin contact Fiona by trump to verify
orders from Dara. Fiona is standing guard at the base of the primal
pattern. Not only do they definitely work for contact, Corwin trumps
through to the primal pattern, right before he steals the Jewel of
Judgement from Oberon for his own attempt at repairing the pattern.

Mark Craig Carroll
mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu
...backbone!rutgers!topaz!mccarrol

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 21:08:40 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet 
Subject: More About Corwin's Universe (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

arthur@saturn.ucsc.edu (Arthur Molin) asks:
>A thought that I just had...the universe of the Primal Pattern (Dworkin's
>universe) contains, in Shadow, everything that can be imagined.
>
>What exists in Corwin's universe that does not exist in Dworkin's?  Also,
>even if you got there, how could you prove that it wasn't a subset of
>Dworkin's universe?

Now:  Imagine.

One suspends a light in the midst of a whirling void of Chaos.  This is the
primal pattern.  The illumination of the substance of the chaos brings form
to the shadows (notice the parallel to Roger Z's nomenclature).  Now, what
happens when one suspends a second light elsewhere in the universe?

Conjecture:

Between the two Patterns, interference arises.  This is substantiated by
some comments made in the second Amber series.  Now, a given point in
shadow is illuminated by two different patterns, given form as reflections
of both of them.  Shadows which lie between the two patterns are influenced
by each.  (Subconjecture: a possible reason this has not appeared in the
books is that either Zelazny hasn't bothered to work out the details or
that the shadows haven't stabilized yet) Now, obviously two patterns will
"illuminate" further into Chaos than just one, and each may illuminate
shadows that the other cannot reach.

Now:
I disagree that Corwin's pattern is simply another view of Dworkin's.
Comments made in the first Amber series support the notion that one
person's pattern would create shadows with a different "flavor" than that
of another person.  Specifically, I seem to recall Corwin being none too
keen to live in a world where Brand had created the pattern, since the
shadows would all mirror his madness....

Conjecture II:
It may be instructive (boy, do I sound like a math book) to wait for the
next book.  The whole "living trump" business has apparently been fairly
well reasoned out by Roger Z, and Julia presents some interesting problems
herself.

Bitnet: cxt105@psuvm
Uucp: ...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 88 00:39:41 GMT
From: kemp@andy.bgsu.edu (Wade Kemp)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler):
>chi@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Curt Hagenlocher) says:
>>Is it ever mentioned in the books that it is possible to trump into the
>>center of a Pattern?  If so, it would be possible to carry only one Trump
>>- depicting the center - and use it to travel anywhere.
>
> I think you would run into a bit of difficultly there.  It is *very* hard
> to walk shadow anywhere near the primal pattern and, if you recall the
> trumps won't work there either.
>
>> Can you use the Pattern to transport oneself somewhere where one has
>>never been?
>  Ask Coral.

Can WE get this straight!!!!!

YES you can use the pattern to trump into the center of another pattern and
then use that pattern's power to trump someplace else.

You can use the trumps at the site of the PRIMAL pattern remember when
Corwin tried to walk the Primal Pattern instead of Oberon?? Oberon sent him
away like using a trump. Also Martin was stabbed and his blood spilled on
the pattern while Brand(??) held trump contact. It is only in the long
route to the primal pattern that your trumps don't work.

And now for the current argument-- ONLY MERLIN could trump into the center
of Corwin's pattern, Nobody else can walk it there for I would think that
trumping into the center would be fatal !! BUT Merlin has not walked the
pattern, and that may preclude using the power of the pattern until he
walks it. Can't have your cake and eat it too!!

I've enjoyed the discussion  so far let's keep it up!!!

Wade Kemp
575 W. Gypsy Lane #272
Bowling Green, OH 43402
(419) 354-0243
UUCP:	...!cbosgd!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kemp
CSNET:	kemp@bgsu.edu
ARPA :  kemp%bgsu.edu@relay.cs.net

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 88 18:33:25 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (John Bigboote')
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark C. Carroll) writes:
>>seems to do wonders for your magical abilities.  When Corwin and co.
>>first encountered the primal pattern their trumps were "dead".
>
> ...get that by hearsay. But also, in the beginning of tCoC, we have
> Corwin contact Fiona by trump to verify orders from Dara. Fiona is
> standing guard at the base of the primal pattern. Not only do they
> definitely work for contact, Corwin trumps through to the primal pattern,
> right before he steals the Jewel of Judgement from Oberon for his own
> attempt at repairing the pattern.

minor spoiler...

In the second book of the second series, I forget the name, Merlin
discovers that the Pattern is sort-of sentient.  Maybe it's deciding when
and not for pattern powered things to work.

Its sentience is probably tied to Dworkin's mind, as well.  Where do you
think Z is going with this?  (or is he just throwing out yet another loose
thread.)

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 88 23:02:16 GMT
From: goldstrn@twinkies.berkeley.edu (martin goldstern)
Subject: What is the name of this book ?

A man who goes back in time about two thousand years to do research on
Jesus Christ. However, as he arrives in Israel, around 20 or 30 A.D., he
cannot find Jesus. So he starts gathering disciples, telling them stories
from the bible, and ends up being crucified.  If you know the title/author
of the book, please mail, don't post.  Thank you.

Martin Goldstern
Math Dept.
University of California
Berkeley
goldstrn@math.berkeley.edu
{sun,dual,decwrl,decvax,hplabs,...}!ucbvax!math!goldstrn

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 18:28:06 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: (Yet another) Name that book

Yes, nostagically thinking about books read in my youth, I remember one in
particular; the author was British, but I remember little else: a young lad
is trained to be the first astronaut; he undergoes time spent in a tank,
etc, and almost blows his chances by licking a "hooligan's boots" instead
of fighting the gang but is reinstated because "he was thinking of the
programme, not himself" and so on; at the end he is fired into space as one
of the team members reveals himself as a spy, who holds the control under
gunpoint; our hero nearly dies when his capsule crashes.  A sequel ensued
about racing the Soviets to the moon; both arrived simultaneously, only to
have to help each other out (because of finding an alien race?  I forget or
confuse with others).

Can anyone name these and the author?  They must certainly be late '50's,
very early '60's.

hal

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 06:20:21 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: What is the name of this book ?

goldstrn@math.berkeley.edu writes:
>A man who goes back in time about two thousand years to do
>research on Jesus Christ. However, as he arrives in Israel, around 
>20 or 30 A.D., he cannot find Jesus. So he starts gathering 

He finds him but he turns out to be a slobbering idiot.

>disciples, telling them stories from the bible, and ends up being
>crucified.  If you know the title/author of the book, please mail, don't
>post.  Thhank you.

The short story is called "Behold The Man", and I think it was in one of
the Dangerous Vision anthologies (Harlan Ellison, ed.).

The reason I am posting instead of mailing is that I would just like to
point out a similarity with this story to an epsiode of Twilight Zone:The
Next Generation.  In the TZ:TNG episode, an Elvis impersonator is sent back
in time via the Twain mechanism (a blow on the head) and discovers that the
real Elvis is about to go to the talent contest (or whatever it was that
gave Elvis his first break) and play "Oh Suzzanna" or some such thing.  The
impersonator is really upset, and plays the type of song that we
traditionally associate with Elvis.  Real Elvis is upset by the
pornographic aspects of it, one thing leads to another, and in the ensuing
fight, the impersonator kills the real one.  Realizing what he has done, he
lives out the life of the historical Elvis.  In the end he plays Vegas
forever because the real Elvis thought that would be the peak of his
career, and would make his mother happy, and so the impersonator owes him
that.

The parallels with "Behold The Man" are so strong that it is obvious that
the scriptwriter knew the story (I didn't catch his name, so it may even
have been the same author.)  Obviously the original would not have gotten
past the network censors.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 18:38:35 GMT
From: goldstrn@bosco.berkeley.edu (martin goldstern)
Subject: Re: What is the name of this book ?

I wrote
> A man who goes back in time about two thousand years to do research on
> Jesus Christ. However, as he arrives in Israel, around 20 or 30 A.D., he
> cannot find Jesus. So he starts gathering disciples, telling them stories
> from the bible, and ends up being crucified.

Thank you for your numerous and quick responses. The story is "Behold the
Man", by Michael Moorcock.

Martin Goldstern
Math Dept.
University of California
Berkeley
goldstrn@math.berkeley.edu
{sun,dual,decwrl,decvax,hplabs,...}!ucbvax!math!goldstrn

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 22 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 270

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Antimatter & Fantasy (4 msgs) &
                          Novels from Shorter Works (2 msgs) &
                          Henry Kuttner vs. Jack Vance (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 16:37:24 GMT
From: klaes@25.691.enet (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283)
Subject: MIRROR MATTER - The latest info on antimatter physics.

   For those of you interested in reading about the actual possibilities of
antimatter (mirror matter) being used to propel future interplanetary and
interstellar spaceships, I highly recommend the following book:
    
   MIRROR MATTER: PIONEERING ANTIMATTER PHYSICS (1988 - HC)
   Robert L. Forward and Joel Davis
   John Wiley & Sons, Incorporated
   ISBN 0-471-62812-3
    
   This book, which is available in any good general bookstore, will be of
interest to science fiction and STAR TREK fans, as it not only discusses
antimatter physics and its use as a starship fuel in a manner which neither
insults nor overwhelms the average reader's intelligence, but it also
devotes several chapters to antimatter as used in numerous SF and STAR TREK
books and films.  The authors' consensus is that antimatter might really
make a wonderful interplanetary and sublight starship power source someday,
but that faster-than-light (FTL) travel is impossible regardless, based on
the scientific knowledge we currently have in this area.

   Forward also publishes MIRROR MATTER, a newsletter which is mailed out
every few months detailing the latest advancements in antimatter physics
and technology.  The address for receiving MIRROR MATTER can be found in
the book.
                                                            
Another book by Forward on antimatter which I also recommend:
    
   FUTURE MAGIC (1988 - Paperback)
   Dr. Robert L. Forward
   Avon Books
   ISBN 0-380-89814-4
    
   FUTURE MAGIC devotes itself to numerous currently SF-type ideas on
future science and technology.
    
Larry

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 22:54:00 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Multi-faceted reponse

shimrod@rhialto.SGI.COM (IOUN) writes:
>I noticed people touting Eddings and the DragonLance (Weis & Hickman)
>books. Please, read something good instead. Eddings, in particular, I
>cannot take seriously. Anyone who writes a book in which a god of ultimate
>evil dies because no one loves him is missing a few important concepts in
>fantasy writing.

Maybe he's creating a new concept? I haven't read any of Eddings's work,
but it sounds to me like you're objecting because he violated some standard
formula. I sometimes (often?) like to see formulae violated.  The idea of a
"god of ultimate evil" needing love seems strange to me, too, but I can see
a good writer using it successfully.

>The DragonLance books are similarly sickening. Perhaps a bit better.
>Cough.

On the other hand, you also disapprove of Dragonlance, which sticks pretty
well to formula, so that can't be your gripe. I have read the first books
in the first two trilogies (_Dragons of Autumn Twighlight_ and _Time of the
Twins_). And even though the story and characters were done with a rather
heavy hand, I did find them entertaining as light reading.  But then, being
a roleplayer from way back, I may have had an affinity for the way Weis and
Hickman handled the story.

>Jack Vance writes some very dry and witty fantasy; I recommend Lyonesse
>and Cugel's Saga. His science fiction (not that there's any real
>difference) is also good.

Agreed here. Haven't read _Lyonesse_, but I've read his first three "Dying
Earth" books, and enjoy them as well (light, satirical reading).  Don't
know much about his "straight" sf, except for the anthology _The Narrow
Land_, which was excellent.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 12:53:21 GMT
From: rlwald@phoenix.princeton.edu (Robert L. Wald)
Subject: Re: Multi-faceted reponse

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>shimrod@rhialto.SGI.COM (IOUN) writes:
>>I noticed people touting Eddings and the DragonLance (Weis & Hickman)
>>books. Please, read something good instead. Eddings, in particular, I
>>cannot take seriously. Anyone who writes a book in which a god of
>>ultimate evil dies because no one loves him is missing a few important
>>concepts in fantasy writing.
>
>Maybe he's creating a new concept? I haven't read any of Eddings's work,
>but it sounds to me like you're objecting because he violated some
>standard formula. I sometimes (often?) like to see formulae violated.  The
>idea of a "god of ultimate evil" needing love seems strange to me, too,
>but I can see a good writer using it successfully.

  I thought there were some problems with Edding's books, and although I
read and enjoy them, I don't take them at all seriously. (One doesn't need
the other). This particular criticism I don't understand, however.  What
conventions say that Torak couldn't die like that (not to mention that he
was never strictly a 'god of ultimate evil' except to his enemies (read his
version of the story in the forward of one of the books). I don't like
standard formula in general, but I can't even place this one.

>>Jack Vance writes some very dry and witty fantasy;

  I've only read a little, but what I've read has been very good (first
Dying Earth). I've been looking for more of his stuff, but haven't found
any in local bookstores at all (hopefully the local Infinity (SF club)
library will have some). I did find "Green Magic" which I thought was an
excellent book.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 10:42:45 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.gatech.edu (didsgn)
Subject: Re: Undiscussed fantasy series

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>There's been a lot of talk (ever since it appeared) about whether or not
>_The Lord of the Rings_ is the best fantasy series ever.  This article is
>not even ATTEMPTING to start that discussion up again, so please don't.
>
>However, much of the evaluation of modern fantasy involves an analysis of
>how much a given book/set of books plagiarizes from Tolkien. ...

PLAGIARIZES ????

EVERYTHING that involves a 'quest' (usually in the form of a hero, with or
without retinue, travelling across a hostile land to a place of some
significance) immediately gets interpreted by the Tolkien-philes as a
plagiarization of the Master!

If they'd only bother spending the 4-6 hours required reading Campbell's
_The Hero with a Thousand Faces_ maybe they will become a little bit less
self-righteous. (After Campbell's writings have finally reached the eyes
and ears of the public- thanks to Bill Moyers- there is really no excuse,
for any fantasy reader of any literary pretensions whatesoever, to ignore
that particular book.)

The fact is that Tolkien merely took (and modified very little) the folk
and hero motifs and made them into a rattling good yarn. He also set a new
standard for world-creation (detail and believability) against which all
subsequent fantasy has to be measured (much as the movie '2001' did for the
special effects in sf film making).

Tolkien is charming- grand even. His prose is graceful (and I wish some
Tolkienites on the net would emulate it). His world is fascinatingly
complex.  His characters are interesting, but basically unoriginal
(representing concoctions of motifs from folk and fairy tales). Certainly
there is little originality to the either the ring-motif, the symbolism in
the quest itself, Hobbits, or Sauron.

If any Tolkien-phile wants to get pissed off at that analysis, that is his
privilege. But refrain from using words like "moron" (when applied to me)
unless you have something substantive to offer in reply. :-)

The facts speak for themselves, however, and anybody with a modicum of
erudition will have, I suspect, little problem with my assessment.

The point is, however, that others have done just as well, and better.  It
is much more difficult to place people ('real' people)- and even Belgarath
and Polgara are very much real people, in spite of their age- into a
fantasy situation, than it is to use humanised versions of the denizens of
Faerie. Eddings has accomplished that with aplomb, adding, as if that was
even necessary, some mythological elements to the simple sage of good and
evil, that I cannot recall having been tackled before in such a sustained
fashion. Here, too, is nothing terribly original- but very little in
fantasy is. Only the form and the characters change.

And then there is, of course, Jack Vance....

>Looking through the postings here lately, I am astonished to find that one
>of my favorite fantasy series, one which I feel "borrows" very little from
>any other books, is not at all discussed!
>
>QUESTION: have any of the rest of you read/liked/disliked/hated/loved/etc.
>the books by Jack Vance entitled "Lyoness" and "The Green Pearl?"  The
>newer editions of them have been retitled (minorly) to "Lyoness I:
>Suldrun's Garden" and "Lyoness II: The Green Pearl."
>
>It strikes me as odd that they don't seem to come up in this newsgroup's
>conversations much; I think that they deserve mention in any comparative
>discussion of modern fantasy....

Nice to see that somebody here appreciates him! I thought I was the only
one having anything to say about Vance at all (something positive besides).
I suppose that says something about the reading preferences of those hooked
up to this group.

Lyonesse... well, I am still waiting for publication of part 3 !!  Whatever
happened to it only a certain publisher knows. I have heard from reliable
sources that it has been submitted- but that is about all.

A few further words about JV though:

Even if Vance writes shit (and I know of occasions and books or stories
where he did) he has a gift of prose that turns even the trite into a work
of art. He uses that gift often enough to cover up for his deficencies, but
somehow it becomes forgiveable.

His worlds are richer, more varied, more imaginative than anybody else's I
have ever come across. From The Gaean Reach to the Dying Earth to Lyonesse,
Araminta Station, and the strange worlds of the Star Kings, the Dragon
Masters, or the Earth of the great castles...  Compared to that tapestry
Tolkien look charming, but loses a lot of his nimbus. Even Vance's most
inconsistent stories (like "Chun, the Unavoidable" from _The Dying Earth_,
my first ever Jack Vance book), shine in spite of their obvious faults;
more poetry, really, than a real 'story'. Evocative always.

Vance's worst ('Five Gold Bands' and stuff like that) is readable, but I
keep them on my bookshelf only for completeness' sake. Fortunately Vance
wrote very few books of that kind.

Vance's people, though suffering occasionally from his stylistic minimalist
leanings (a habit he only began to discard in his recent novels), are
nevertheless clear, individual, and evoke instant responses in the reader.
The Star Kings are twisted creeps (as is Cugel the Clever), which are seen
and delineated in the fullness of their sickness and distorted mentalities
and yet demand our sympathy, a trace of compassion, and sometimes maybe
appreciation (a beyond-good-and-evil type of perspective Joseph Campbell
might have appreciated). His protagonists tend to be victorious, and yet,
during their moment of triumph, only too often realise that the struggle
they just survived was but a trivial matter when compared to their true
problems (and often the fights and victories are the elements that create
the awareness of those problems- turns the heros from outward quests and
disputes to their inward struggles).

There is a definite message there, but Vance never preaches, but shows it
to us with his wry humour and appreciation of human folly and potential.

Till Noever
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 19:05:47 GMT
From: mangoe@mimsy.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Undiscussed fantasy series

Till Noever  writes:
>>However, much of the evaluation of modern fantasy involves an analysis of
>>how much a given book/set of books plagiarizes from Tolkien. ...
>
>PLAGIARIZES ????
>
>EVERYTHING that involves a 'quest' (usually in the form of a hero, with or
>without retinue, travelling across a hostile land to a place of some
>significance) immediately gets interpreted by the Tolkien-philes as a
>plagiarization of the Master!
>
>If they'd only bother spending the 4-6 hours required reading Campbell's
>_The Hero with a Thousand Faces_ maybe they will become a little bit less
>self-righteous.

There are only a few problems with this little theory.  One is that there
has in fact been a LOT of quite obvious an intentional imitation of
Tolkien.  If you look at the formula Del Rey prefers for fantasies, it is
essentially the LOTR plot with all the characters tokenized and all the
plot details erased.

Certainly Eddings's books fit this mold; I think the particular strength of
the Belgariad is that it abandons the *stylistic* conventions of Tolkien,
but the dreaded collection of the magic Plot TOkens is still there.

>The fact is that Tolkien merely took (and modified very little) the folk
>and hero motifs and made them into a rattling good yarn.

Unfortunately for Campbell's thesis, he also took a rather large helping of
Christian theology.

And I think that is at the root of what makes Tolkien great beyond compare,
and the rest by and large mere imitators.  Tolkien had something to say,
something deep from his own beliefs.  His imitators, by contrast, have
copied the general style and structure of the LOTR (and rather pointedly,
NOT the Silmarillion!), but left behind all the theology and legend.  The
result has generally been rather trivial.

I liked the first four books of the Belgariad a lot.  The last one fails
precisely at thepoint where all the legend and lore have to resolve, at the
fight between Torak and Belgarion.  Here the plot suddenly becomes hard and
mechanical.

Perhaps one ought to read _The Language of the Night_ before one starts
seeing Campbell's myths everywhere.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 06:52:26 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

steveg@squid (Mhoram) writes:
>It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel, it's a
>definite loss.
>
>Any more examples?  Or counter examples? Or just plain disagreement?

How about A. C. Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END?  Or J. Varley's MILLENNIUM?  They
both strike me as highly successful expansions.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 06:56:04 GMT
From: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Steve Greenland)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works (was Zelazny reissue)

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>>It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel, it's
>>a definite loss.
>>
>>Any more examples?  Or counter examples? Or just plain disagreement?
>
>How about A. C. Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END?  Or J. Varley's MILLENNIUM?
>They both strike me as highly successful expansions.

I don't think I've ever read the short version of CHILDHOOD's END. (Twenty
lashes with a soggy tapedrive!!)

As far as MILLENIUM goes, I preferred the short version.  I read the long
version first, too.  Maybe the short version leaves things unexplained that
I knew from the novel, and not knowing those things would make the short
version less successful.  Also, I much prefer Varley's short fiction to his
novels, so it may be some stylistic effect that I'm picking up on with him.
(But I did really like OPHIUCII HOTLINE, who knows??)

steveg
ARPA: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu
      steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
UUCP: ....!ucbvax!hub!squid!steveg

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 13:51:27 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Henry Kuttner and/or Jack Vance

While doing some research, I came across an entry for Henry Kuttner in
SHORT STORY INDEX which said "For more stories by this author, see Vance,
Jack."

Sure enough, the Jack Vance entry had a cross-reference to Kuttner, as
well.

None of the stories mentioned in either entry were indicated as being by
Kuttner and Vance together.

I'd always thought Vance and Kuttner were two separate people.  What's
going on here?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 21:02:00 GMT
From: shimrod@rhialto.sgi.com (IOUN)
Subject: Kuttner/Vance

Apparently, a lot of people thought that Jack Vance was a pseudonym for
Henry Kuttner. This is because Vance is a fairly private,
non-self-publicizing type. Of course, when Kuttner died and Vance continued
to write books, this illusion was dispelled. There's a book about Vance
which describes the whole amusing situation. I'm afraid I don't remember
the name.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 22 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 271

Today's Topics:

   Books - A Critique of Bjo Trimble's THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 15:49:54 GMT
From: klaes@25.691.enet (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283)
Subject: A Critique of Bjo Trimble's THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976).

   When Bjo Trimble wrote the Ballantine Books edition of THE STAR TREK
CONCORDANCE (ISBN 0-345-25137-7) in 1976, she had this to say on page 11 in
the "Key" section: "Attempts have been made to tie everything [The live and
animated STAR TREK episodes and their scripts] together, but how successful
this has been will depend on how many interesting mistakes the reader can
find.  If nothing else, this book should provide a field day for
nitpickers!"

   Ever since I have been reading and using Trimble's book, I have come
across a number of errors which did not correspond with what was shown in
the STAR TREK episode in question, and I always wondered if someone someday
would take up her challenge to find and report on the errors in full, along
with adding information in the series left out in the book.  Some have
been, like the infamous CONSTITUTION/CONSTELLATION starship class debate in
this newsgroup - which was all due to two errors on Trimble's part and
spread by Vonda McIntyre in her STAR TREK novels (more on this later) - but
I have never seen anywhere in any book or newsgroup article a complete (or
as complete as possible) examination of the entire CONCORDANCE.

   I decided to take on this task.  I can now see why it was not done in
full before (at least to my knowledge).  Bjo may not have written the book
as detailed as some fans might have hoped, but she organized a tremendous
amount of material from all the original live series and the animateds, and
succeeded in giving everything a logical order and overall accuracy - and
at a time when videotapes of the episodes were virtually nonexistent and
VCRs were not generally available to the public!  Scripts and memory were
her chief tools, along with conversations with those who worked directly on
creating and developing STAR TREK.

   I feel this critique is important, as the CONCORDANCE is undoubtedly one
of the landmark reference manuals in STAR TREK history - along with Franz
Joseph's STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL (1975), Geoffrey Mandel's STAR FLEET
MEDICAL REFERENCE MANUAL (1977), and several others - owned and referred to
by most "serious" STAR TREK fans for information on the STAR TREK Universe;
and unlike Joseph's TECH MANUAL, the CONCORDANCE is still available at
relatively reasonable prices from merchandise dealers, so that most fans
can have access to it.  Also, the CONCORDANCE has influenced so many other
manuals, novels, blueprints, etc., both accurately and inaccurately, that I
felt those errors should be exposed to hopefully halt any future growth of
the misinformation involved.  I have seen several other manuals pick up and
carry on errors even as small as spelling mistakes in proper names; this
too will be discussed further in detail.

   The final reason I did this is to test my STAR TREK knowledge as part of
my enjoyment of this series, and to see just how accurate and thorough I
did as well.  The STAR TREK Universe is too complex for one person to
handle completely, even without inclusion of the films and new live series.
I hope that any errors and missing issues I have made will be picked up and
reported in this newsgroup and/or to me, and I hope my efforts will be of
benefit to those who refer to the CONCORDANCE when trying to gather
information on STAR TREK, for whatever reason.
 
   Like Bjo, my information sources come chiefly from the televised
episodes and scripts.  I do not generally include information from novels,
blueprints, fan magazines, and other manuals, except to point out where
errors in the CONCORDANCE were spread on to them.  Please keep in mind that
this book was written three years before the first STAR TREK film (1979),
and eleven years before STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION ST:TNG) began in
1987, so I am only examining what was written upon in the CONCORDANCE: The
live series (1966-1969) and the animated series 1973-1974), both broadcast
on the NBC television network.  If Bjo ever publishes her updated
CONCORDANCE - which is reported to have information on STAR TREK right up
through ST:TNG - it will be interesting to see if she has made any
information corrections on her original work.

   Most of the errors were found in the "Lexicon" section of the
CONCORDANCE, though there were a few in the "Summaries" of the episodes as
well.  It was amusing to note how Bjo wrote rather short plot summaries for
the live series, while being much more detailed with the animated series;
but considering the more limited availability of the animateds to the
viewing public, this is just as well.  I found only one error in the "Fan
Art" section, on page 30 with the picture of Mr. Atoz from "All Our
Yesterdays".  The caption for the drawing reads Mr. Atoz and the
atavachron".  The drawing shows Mr. Atoz sitting at a table in the
Sarpeidon library, where a "viewer" for the atavachron is set.  This
viewer, while essential to the atavachron's time teleporting abilities, is
not the atavachron itself (which was the large computer device at the far
wall of the library), just as the steering wheel of an automobile is a
vital part of the vehicle, but it is not the automobile itself.  I could
find no other errors, labeling or otherwise, in this section; if anything,
my only complaint is that Bjo did not have more pictures and diagrams
placed into the book.

   I should also point out that I am not trying to correct any "errors"
with what went on in the episodes themselves, such as should Captain Kirk
have done a certain action differently in one episode, or why didn't they
use the shuttlecraft in "The Enemy Within", though I will do so when it
assists in giving the reader more complete information on a particular
subject, but this is not my primary plan.  I only want to find where Bjo's
book lacked or was wrong in its information as compared to the series, and
try to rectify the situation at hand.

   To start with, Bjo seemed to have some difficulty properly spelling the
name of planet Alpha 177, encountered in the episode "The Enemy Within".
In the Summaries on page 39, and in the Lexicon on page 203 under the
definition of ore, it is spelled Alfa 177 (an f instead of ph), while it is
spelled Alpha 177 on page 151 under double, and page 159 under Fisher,
Technician.  The Alfa spelling was carried over into the STAR TREK MAPS
(1980) and the FASA Role Playing Game series, but was spelled Alpha in the
COMPENDIUM.  I prefer to go with the Alpha 177 spelling, as STAR TREK did
tend to give some planets simple Greek letters for names, such as Beta 6
and Gamma 2.

   The starbase mentioned in "The Alternative Factor" was not written about
in the CONCORDANCE - Starbase 200, spoken of by Captain James T.  Kirk but
not seen.  It was nowhere to be found in the plot summary on page 50, nor
in the Lexicon with the other starbase references on page 230.  It is a
minor detail to be sure, but most of the other starbases in STAR TREK were
given only passing references too, and yet they are recorded.  It should
also be brought up because no other starbase in the series mentioned went
above 27 in numbering ("This Side of Paradise").  It may have been shoddy
research on the writer's part ("The Alternative Factor" was a rather poor
episode), and Bjo may have either forgotten about Starbase 200 or failed to
mention it due to the inconsistency in numbering (there were probably no
more than thirty or so starbases at that time in Federation history, not
200).  Bjo preferred to explain STAR TREK Universe inconsistencies in the
CONCORDANCE with STAR TREK Universe reasoning, rather than telling the
"real" reasons.

   On pages 57 and 133, the Doomsday Machine in the episode of the same
name is called the "berserker".  Nowhere in the episode was the giant
automated weapon referred to as such, yet it is named that throughout the
CONCORDANCE.  I realize this is in connection with the fact that episode
author Norman Spinrad wrote about such devices called Berserkers in other
science fiction books, but the point is the machine was not called that in
the episode.  Also, there was no mention anywhere of the Doomsday Machine
having used a beam of absolutely pure antiproton to slice up planets to
"ingest" for fuel.

   I encountered the character named Maximus in the "Bread and Circuses"
plot summary on page 69.  The character was played by Max Kelven.  Oddly
enough, he is not written about in the Lexicon; this is not unusual, but
most characters are given at least a small write-up in that section.  The
most unusual part, however, is that I could not find him anywhere in the
televised episode at all, even though he is mentioned in WHO'S WHO IN STAR
TREK by John Townsley (1984) and THE STAR TREK COMPENDIUM by Allan Asherman
(1986), though with no description as to what the character did.  All major
characters in this episode were given proper names, except for the Master
of the Games, whom I at first thought might have been this Maximus; but he
was played by Jack Perkins.  There was a Flavius Maximus, but he was played
by Rhodes Reason and had a noticable role.  I am led to believe Maximus was
either a character who was in a part of the episode which was eventually
edited out before final release, or a small-part character who was never
formally identified in the episode.  If anyone could identify who this
character was and what he did, I would be grateful.
                           
   On page 128 in the definition April, Dr. Sarah, the ENTERPRISE is quoted
as being "the first ship equipped with warp drive."  What Bjo meant to say
was that the ENTERPRISE was the first ship of its *class* to have Warp
Drive.  The very first starship to use Warp Drive was the S.S. BONAVENTURE,
from the animated episode "Time Trap".

   On page 130, August, 2020 is given as the unmanned star probe NOMAD's
launch date from Earth.  The actual date was August, 2002, written
correctly on page 200 in the NOMAD definition, and also seen on the bottom
center of the blueprint of NOMAD's original design, displayed on an
ENTERPRISE briefing room table monitor.  THE STAR FLEET SPACEFLIGHT
CHRONOLOGY, co-authored by Allan Asherman (1980), uses the year 2020 as
NOMAD's launching date.  By the way, if anyone has a good copy of this
original blueprint of NOMAD, I would be very happy to purchase it, thanks.

   On page 132 in the Beast definition, there is a reference for additional
information to "see also Rocky upthrust."  However, the phrase is not
defined in the Lexicon.  The only relation I can think of for "Rocky
upthrust" to Beast is that the definition referred to Gorgan of the planet
Triacus in the episode "And the Children Shall Lead", where Gorgan had been
sealed up in a cave - a "rocky upthrust" of sorts - until released by the
Starnes expedition.

   On page 133 in the definition Beta Niobe, Bjo interchanges the words
"nova" and "supernova" as if they mean the same thing, which they do not.
A nova is a star that suddenly increases up to several hundreds of
thousands of times in brightness.  Novae result when hydrogen streaming
from the giant component of a close binary system accumulates on its white
dwarf companion in sufficient amounts to trigger a thermonuclear explosion.
A great burst of heat and light energy is unleashed, and the acquired mass
is blown away from the surface of the white dwarf star.  A supernova is a
cataclysmic explosion in which a star of high mass (three times greater +
than Earth's sun, Sol) blows itself apart and in the process increases in
luminosity up to a billion times.  If the star's core survives, it
contracts to become a neutron star or collapsar (black hole).
Paradoxically, Bjo indicates that she does know the difference between the
two types of stellar deaths on pages 200-201 and 233.

   On page 142, in the definition of Colt, Yeoman, an ENTERPRISE crewmember
in the first STAR TREK pilot "The Cage" and later seen in edited format in
"The Menagerie", there is this description of her behavior: "She was
curious to wonder, later, just which female Pike would have chosen, but she
never found out."  While this scene did exist in "The Cage", it did not
make it into the edited scenes for "The Menagerie", and since "The Cage"
was never televised and not reviewed in the CONCORDANCE, the reference is
therefore wrong in regards to "The Menagerie", but it does exist in the
pilot.

   On page 143 in the Computer, ENTERPRISE definition, the starship is
described as having returned to Earth in the 1970s in the episode "Tomorrow
is Yesterday", when in fact the ENTERPRISE accidentally returned to the
late 1960s.  The error is made again on page 202 in Omaha Air Base, but
rectified in the Colonel Fellini definition on page 158.  Not only does
Kirk say in the episode that they are in the late 1960s, but the audience
is given proof of this by a radio broadcast about "the first manned Moon
shot".  Now this is somewhat vague, due to the fact that "Tomorrow is
Yesterday" was produced in 1967, when the APOLLO program was in jeopardy
over the disastrous APOLLO 1 ground test fire, which made the goal of an
American astronaut on Earth's Moon by 1970 uncertain at the time.  The
"Moon shot" in question could either be APOLLO 8, the first manned
circumlunar expedition in December of 1968, or APOLLO 11, the first manned
Moon landing in July of 1969, both in the late 1960s.  Bjo may have been
inadvertently influenced (unconsciously, perhaps?) in writing "1970s" by
James Blish's novelization of the episode in STAR TREK 2, which was first
published in February, 1968 and used 1970 as the date for the mission, when
the timetables for the manned Moon missions were still tentative.  Blish,
writing before APOLLO 8, has an excuse; Bjo, writing four years after
APOLLO 17, does not.  I am speculating on this, of course, but considering
how popular and influential Blish's novelizations were and still are to
STAR TREK fans, I can easily see this occurring.  Also, while Bjo is
careful in elucidating on certain historical events and people mentioned in
STAR TREK, she also tended to gloss over others as well.

   On page 146, no mention is given of who does the voice of Jon Daily,
captain of the ASTRAL QUEEN in the episode "The Conscience of the King".
That person was John Astin, who also played Gomez Addams in the ABC
television series THE ADDAMS FAMILY (1964-1966).

   On page 148, Bjo refers to the Energy Barrier surrounding the Milky Way
Galaxy as the "extragalactic force field" in the definition of Doctor
Elizabeth Dehner from the episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before".  Though
this is not its "proper" name (She does refer to it as the Energy Barrier
on pages 132 and 155), the term extragalactic is also wrong in that while
the Barrier may be around the outer fringes of the galaxy, it is still a
part, and therefore not extragalactic, particularly since it seems to
define the borders of the Milky Way in the STAR TREK Universe.

   Also on page 148, in the definition of planet Deneb IV, where it is
stated that Kirk and Gary Mitchell spent a wild and memorable shore leave,
it was also written on Mitchell's medical file (as seen on the viewscreen
when Kirk and Spock were calling up his and Dehner's records in WNMHGB)
that he successfully communicated telepathically with selected inhabitants
of Deneb IV.

   On page 155, the Imperial Star Ship (I.S.S.) ENTERPRISE from the episode
"Mirror, Mirror" is described as "a fifty-billion-credit starship being run
as a pirate vessel."  A pirate vessel it may be, but I found no mention of
its cost in the televised episode.

[Moderator's Note: Due to the length of this article, it has been broken up
into 3 smaller parts.  Part 2 will appear in the next issue.]

------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 22 Sep 88 09:43:11 EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu>
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #272
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 22 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 272

Today's Topics:

		Books - THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE [Part 2]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 15:49:54 GMT
From: klaes@25.691.enet (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283)
Subject: A Critique of Bjo Trimble's THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976).

[Moderator's Note:  This article is the continuation of an article in
SF-LOVERS Digest Issue #271.]

   On page 156, we come to the place where Vonda McIntyre made her infamous
mistake about what class of starship the ENTERPRISE is.  In the definition
of the ENTERPRISE, it is referred to as a CONSTELLATION class starship.
Bjo makes the same reference again on page 250 in Warp drive.  However, she
does refer to the ENTERPRISE as a CONSTITUTION class starship on pages 199
and 231.  The fact is it is a CONSTITUTION class starship, and the proof
lies in a small reference made on page 231, which leads to a conclusive
answer.  The list of CONSTITUTION class starships names each vessel, along
with what episodes they either appeared or were mentioned in.  After the
name CONSTITUTION, there is an SS in parenthesis, which is the CONCORDANCE
abbreviation for the episode "Space Seed".  Though it was not readily
visible in that episode, the diagram Khan Noonian Singh was viewing while
in sickbay was a schematic of the ENTERPRISE of the *CONSTITUTION* class.
Hopefully this will be enough evidence for everyone to settle the debate
and correct the error.  The CONSTELLATION was the starship which battled
the Doomsday Machine, and it too was of the CONSTITUTION class.  If Vonda
had done some further research - even just read the CONCORDANCE more
carefully - she would have noticed the discrepancy.  Fortunately, most
other STAR TREK reference materials go with the CONSTITUTION as the class
of starship the ENTERPRISE belongs to.

   Also on page 156, security guard Evans is described as being forced to
kill the Elasian [Kryton]" in the episode "Elaan of Troyius".  This is not
true: Kryton grabbed Evan's phaser before the guard could stop him, and
then killed himself with it to avoid disclosing why he was in engineering
sabotaging the antimatter pods.

   On page 159 in the First Citizen definition, one of the titles given to
S.S. BEAGLE Captain R. M. Merik - later called Merikus in the episode
"Bread and Circuses" - by the Roman culture on Planet 892-IV, Merikus was
also called the "Chief Magistrate of the Condemned", but this was not
mentioned in the televised version of the episode, so it may have been only
in the script.

   On page 161, the ENTERPRISE shuttlecraft GALILEO II was not mentioned as
having been hijacked (spacejacked) by the Space Hippies in "The Way to
Eden" to transport them to the deadly planet Eden.

   On page 175, and throughout the CONCORDANCE, Flint's android companion
Rayna Kapec in the episode "Requiem for Methuselah" has her first name
mistakenly spelled as Reena.  In the scene where Kirk discovers the lab
where Flint built Rayna, he sees a plaque over another similar female
android which reads "Rayna 16".  Bjo has this spelling wrong as well on
pages 131 and 214.  The revised COMPENDIUM has Rayna.

   On page 177, the three sons of George Samuel Kirk referred to by James
Kirk's android double in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" are not mentioned
in "Operation -- Annihilate!", nor in the definition; only Sam's son,
Peter, is mentioned and seen in the episode.

   On page 182, a character from "Mirror, Mirror" named Langford is
mentioned.  According to the CONCORDANCE, someone mentions that Uhura-2
(the book refers to all the ENTERPRISE doubles in the Mirror Universe with
the number 2 after their names) did something terrible to this crewman with
a knife, apparently for bothering her.  However, there was no such dialogue
in the televised episode.  Another case of Bjo picking up something from
the script which never made it to the finalized version.

   On page 183 in the definition of Lawton, Yeoman 3/C Tina, the final
sentence "The Thasians later..." was accidentally cut off due to a printing
error - the only major one I could find in the book.  I presume it said
that Lawton was returned to her normal human self by the Thasians after
Charlie Evans turned her into an iguana in the episode "Charlie X", though
we never actually see this happen.

   On page 191 in the definition of McCoy, Joanna (Doctor Leonard McCoy's
daughter), the word intergalactic is used when it should really be
interstellar (Leonard was referring to receiving mail from his daughter in
"The Survivor").  Intergalactic refers to between galaxies, while
interstellar refers to between stars in one particular galaxy.  Joanna and
her father exist in the same galaxy, of course.

   Also on page 191, McCoy-2 in "Mirror, Mirror" was described in the
episode - according to Bjo - as "sullen".  This may be in the script, but
it never made it to the televised version.

   On page 200, the probe NOMAD is described by Bjo as "about five feet
high."  Spock said the probe's height was a fraction over one meter.
Seeing as one meter equals 39.37 inches, or just three inches over one yard
(three feet), five feet is a pretty rough estimate.

   On page 204, the big crime boss Bela Okmyx in "A Piece of the Action"
has his name spelled wrong in the Lexicon definition and throughout the
book as Oxmyx.  No doubt Bjo picked up on the way his name was pronounced
and not how it was spelled.  Proof of the spelling Okmyx comes from a scene
in opposing crime boss Jojo Krako's office, where he has a photo poster of
Okmyx on the wall which he uses as a dartboard.  Bela's name is spelled
clearly in block letters on it.  The SPACEFLIGHT CHRONOLOGY indirectly
follows Bjo's spelling mistake by naming characters from planet Sigma Iotia
II during the U.S.S.  HORIZON's visit with two "x" in their names in the
same positions as Oxmyx (Okmyx).

   On page 207, Bjo says that the photon torpedoes were "first used by the
Romulans in their attacks, subsequently duplicated by Federation
scientists."  Nowhere in any episode do I remember seeing it mentioned that
this is the case.  Bjo may have conjectured that the Federation was
"inspired" by the plasma weapon attack on the ENTERPRISE in "Balance of
Terror" - the plasma energy device looking somewhat like a photon torpedo
in flight - but nothing of the sort is stated that the Federation did or
did not develop photon torpedoes on their own.  In addition, the plasma
weapon is *not* a photon torpedo, and the Romulans did not use such devices
until they started using Klingon warships (in several animated episodes).

   On page 211, a Procedure Q is mentioned from "Bread and Circuses".  This
is a code signal which alerts a starship that its landing party is in
trouble and requires a fully armed party to assist them.  The only
Starfleet "code" which appeared in the televised version, however, was
Condition Green, which stated that the landing party was in trouble, but
that the ship's crew is unable to do anything about it, lest they risk the
Prime Directive (General Order One).  Once again Bjo did not check the
script with the episode as shown to notice the discrepancy.
         
   On page 215, the U.S.S. REPUBLIC is given the registration number of
NCC-1373.  This same number is also noted on page 231; but in "Court
Martial", Commodore Stone calls out the REPUBLIC's number as NCC-1371.

   On page 219, in the definition of Salem (Massachusetts), the CONCORDANCE
repeats what the characters in the animated episode "The Magicks of
Magas-Tu" said Earth people once did to them in the town of Salem,
Massachusetts in 1692 - they burned them as witches - without Bjo refuting
this claim.  In reality, only people in Europe accused of witchcraft were
burned at the stake.  Most of the "witches" in Salem were hung by the neck,
while one man was crushed to death under a pile of rocks, refusing to
confess his being a warlock (male witch).

   On page 221, Scott-2 in "Mirror, Mirror" was described in the episode -
according to Bjo - as "sneering".  She also assumed he drinks a lot.  This
may be in the script, but it never made it to the televised version.

   On page 244, Uhura-2 in "Mirror, Mirror" was described in the episode -
according to Bjo - as "tigerish".  This may be in the script, but it never
made it to the televised version.
         
   On page 247, in the definition of Vina, a character in the first STAR
TREK pilot "The Cage" and later seen in edited format in "The Menagerie",
Bjo says that Vina was given an illusion of Captain Christopher Pike to
keep her company on planet Talos 4.  While the film of this event does
exist in both "The Cage" and The Menagerie", it does not have the same
intent in both episodes: In "The Cage" the above is true, while in the
latter the scene was used to show Pike, now unfettered by his physical
disabilities, walking away with Vina in the illusion of perfect health
created by the Talosians, after having been brought to the planet by a
sympathetic Spock.

   On pages 254-255, in the definitions Zarabeth and Zor K[ha]n the Tyrant
from the episode "All Our Yesterdays", the planet Sarpeidon's ice age is
written to have occurred six thousand years before the time the ENTERPRISE
crew arrived to observe the planet's star Beta Niobe explode.  In the
episode the ice age was quoted numerous times as occurring five thousand
years previously.

   I could not find the names of the actors who portrayed the following
characters and were written in the Summaries cast lists as Unknown": The
M113 Monster (Salt Vampire) and Sturgeon from "The Man Trap"; Sam from
"Charlie X"; the Male and Female Yeoman from What Are Little Girls Made
Of?"; Crewman Brenner in "Balance of Terror"; Isis (the woman, not the cat)
in "Assignment: Earth"; and the Security Guards in "Is There In Truth No
Beauty?"  If someone who knows who played these characters could post their
names in this newsgroup, I would really appreciate it.  I did not post the
Unknowns after the Voice cast lists in the Animateds Summaries, as there
are quite a few and the task is probably more difficult - though if someone
could do it, that would be appreciated, too.

Excuses and Explanations -

   This part is devoted to items in the CONCORDANCE which Bjo tried to
explain on her own without any references from the episodes themselves.
Usually she did a good job, but there were times when her explanations went
way off base from what was intended, and some of her ideas have since
permeated through the STAR TREK world.

   One thing Bjo did sometimes which surprised me is that for someone who
supposedly knows STAR TREK and the people who make it so intimately, she
occasionally missed rather common attributes of this fictional universe.
One of the most famous running themes is how many planets the ENTERPRISE
came across were so much like Earth, right down to almost identical human
histories.  There are two major explanations for this: One is that a race
of highly advanced beings the Preservers or the Arretians, perhaps?)
"seeded" human cultures and other races across the galaxy on habitable
worlds to keep the various species thriving.  The other is Hodgkin's Law of
Parallel Planetary Development, first mentioned in "Bread and Circuses".
This "law" claims that planets with similar environments will produce
similar life forms, probably even right down to similar histories.
   One planet which fits right in with these ideas is Omega 4 from "The
Omega Glory", a world so much like Earth the inhabitants even had similar
political ideologies, Capitalism and Communism.  The one critical place the
Omegans branched off was in having a massive biological war which Earth
avoided, thus dividing the humanoids into two distinct groups, the Yangs
(Yankees) and Kohms (Communists), with the Yangs battling to regain their
land lost to the Kohms in the war.  Now granted, a planet many light years
from Earth developing almost exactly like our world down to political
concepts is probably quite absurd, but the STAR TREK Universe begs us to
accept that many planets throughout the galaxy are much like Earth (roughly
three million, according to McCoy in "The Corbomite Maneuver"), so we
more-or-less do, as it makes Gene Roddenberry's attempts at social
commentary in the guise of science fiction so much easier to accomplish.
   Oddly though, Bjo does not pick up on this common theme in STAR TREK in
this episode, and throughout the CONCORDANCE wherever The Omega Glory" is
mentioned, she claims that the Yangs and Kohms somehow traveled from Earth
two hundred years past to carry out their war.  This can be found on pages
68, 159, 179, 202, and 253.  She is no doubt exhibiting her incredulousness
at a culture existing so far from Earth and yet being so much like us that
she postulates they must be colonizers from our world, regardless of the
fact that the cultures said they have lived on Omega 4 far longer than the
two hundred years she gives them, and that they know almost nothing of
advanced technology, something which is needed to cross interstellar space
if one wants to colonize another star system.  Bjo does not seem to have
the same problem in the CONCORDANCE with a planet which had both Jesus
Christ and the Roman Empire (Planet 892-IV, "Bread and Circuses"), nor with
a world with circa 1960 Terran technology and continental land masses
shaped exactly like Earth's ("Miri")!  In other words, stick with Hodgkin's
Law and accept the fact that in the STAR TREK Universe, Earth-type (Class
M) planets are very popular, including Omega 4.


   One of the undoubtedly worst episodes ever aired was "Spock's Brain":
Not only was the plot and all-around acting bad, but there were several
informational errors made during the episode, bad enough that Bjo could not
adequately explain them away, or even try to in some cases.  For example,
on page 230, the stardate for the episode is once given as 4351.5, when it
was originally announced as 5431.4.  Bjo uses an explanation similar to the
one she gave Pavel Chekov in "Turnabout Intruder" for misnumbering the
wrong General Order containing the death penalty: The ENTERPRISE crew was
so upset over Spock's brain being stolen by aliens that they couldn't get
their numbers straight.  I suppose you can take this excuse or leave it,
but I always thought officers of such caliber as the ENTERPRISE crew stayed
cool and clear-headed under pressure; there is just no excuse for bad
scriptwriting and proofreading.  Bjo does not even attempt to explain the
gaffe on page 225, where planet Sigma Draconis 6 is mistakenly identified
as Sigma Draconis 7!  The crew should just pack it in if they are under so
much stress from this incident that they make critical information errors
without later correcting themselves.

   With the millions of planets in the Milky Way Galaxy known to the
Federation, one can probably expect a few to end up being designated with
the same name.  Such is the case with Taurus 2 on pages 235-236; "The
GALILEO Seven" and "The Lorelei Signal" both center around planets with the
same name.  Now Bjo could have simply accepted the idea that two planets
could have the same name but be completely different worlds in time and
space - as she did with the two planets named Arret (Terra spelled
backwards) in "Return to Tomorrow" and "The Counter-Clock Incident", though
granted the two worlds do exist in separate universes and are not similar -
but no, instead she claims they are one and the same worlds, with the
primitive creatures from "The GALILEO Seven" occupying one area, and the
advanced women in "The Lorelei Signal" occupying another area far apart.
Bjo backs this up with the fact that primitive and advanced human cultures
both live on Earth at the same time.  This is true, but I do not think that
this can apply to Taurus 2's case.  For one thing, the Taurus 2 from
"GALILEO" appears dark green from space, while the Taurus 2 from "Lorelei"
is bright orange-yellow in color.  Also, "GALILEO's" Taurus 2 exists in an
area of space referred to in the episode as a quasar, which caused great
interference with communications and the transporter Astronomers know a lot
more about quasars now than they did in 1967, and presently believe they
are the cores of very and distant early galaxies; in any event, they are
not what was presented in "GALILEO"); none of this occurred with the
ENTERPRISE in "Lorelei".  I was also under the impression that Taurus 2 in
"GALILEO" was covered in a thick fog and inhabited everywhere by the
primitive giants; I saw no such conditions in "Lorelei", plus I also
seriously doubt the primitives and the women would have existed
side-by-side without one or the other being exterminated in the process.  I
do understand Bjo's Earth cultures example, but Earth is not Taurus 2, no
matter which planet.

[Moderator's Note: Due to the length of this article, it has been broken up
into 3 smaller parts.  Part 3 will appear in the next issue.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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*** EOOH ***
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 88 09:56:51 EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfl@elbereth.rutgers.edu
To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #273
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 22 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 273

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Eddings &
                           Herbert (2 msgs) & L'Engle &
                           THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE [Part 3]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 19:56:58 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Sixth(?) Book in the Incarnations Series.

rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro) writes:
>NOTE: The MIT Coop is selling the paperback release of Piers Anthony's
>"Being a Green Mother" - the 5th (and final) part of the Incarnations of
>Immortality series.

The title page of an Anthony book I recently read had this to say under the
"read other books by the same author" section:

INCARNATIONS OF IMMORTALITY SERIES:
   On a Pale Horse.
   Bearing an Hourglass.
   From a Tangled Skein.
   The Red Sword of War.
   Being a Green Mother.
   For the Love of Evil.

Pardon my observance, But I count six (6) titles in the above list.
Obviously there is no other mention of the last in any of the other
works/lists; but the title would seem to fit in the pattern of his other
titles, and it would have some possibilities.

Perhaps Mr. Anthony has a few suprises for us.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 20:58:00 GMT
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro)
Subject: Re: Sixth(?) Book in the Incarnations Series.

Hmmm, very interesting.  I wonder how it will work in (or what exactly is
going on).  Being a Green Mother seemed rather final.  I don't have any
other books by Anthony, and I haven't checked the "other books by" page of
my copy of "Being..."  Another book is fine with me.  I like the characters
and ideas in the series, and would be happy if it just kept on.  As I
finished "Being..." I felt kinda sad that that was it.  But maybe it won't
be.

Rich Carreiro
ARPA: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu
UUCP: {wherever}!mit-eddie!mit-athena!rlcarr
BITNET: rlcarr%athena.mit.edu@MITVMA.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 16:15:52 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Sixth(?) Book in the Incarnations Series.

>Perhaps Mr. Anthony has a few suprises for us.

Not Mr. Anthony this time. 

For the Love of Evil is the sixth of seven (or maybe eight) Incarnation
books. The first five were all published by Del Rey books. Starting with
Love of Evil (due out any time in hardcover, and panned this week royally
in Publishers Weekly) the hardcover will be published by Morrow and the
paperback by (I *think*) Avon.

Since book five was the last Del Rey Incarnation, someone at Del Rey
decided to give Anthony a little friendly goodbye and killed off the series
for him a bit prematurely in the cover blurbs.

You ask me, it's tacky. You ask Anthony, and he doesn't want to talk about
it. I don't think I blame him.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 09:07:25 GMT
From: g-rh@xait.xerox.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Eddings and Tolkien

mangoe@mimsy.umd.edu writes:
>There are only a few problems with this little theory.  One is that there
>has in fact been a LOT of quite obvious an intentional imitation of
>Tolkien.  If you look at the formula Del Rey prefers for fantasies, it is
>essentially the LOTR plot with all the characters tokenized and all the
>plot details erased.
>
>Certainly Eddings's books fit this mold; I think the particular strength
>of the Belgariad is that it abandons the *stylistic* conventions of
>Tolkien, but the dreaded collection of the magic Plot TOkens is still
>there.

   I don't think that this particularly correct.  It is certainly true that
the LOTR has been widely imitated.  It is also true that it is a seminal
work; Tolkien drew extensively on existing mythology but he created a new
fundamental story.  Eddings is drawing on more than Tolkien.  For example
Garion's life story (up to the fight with Torak) is very much like young
Arthur's.  [The King to be is raised in obscurity in ignorance of his true
heritage.  During his youth his upbringing is supervised by the most
powerful sorceror of the age.  He alone can handle the token of the true
King.  By this sign he is recognized as the true King and is anointed.
Instead of pulling the sword out of the stone, he puts the stone in the
sword!]  Now that is an old story, a very good one, and one that has been
used many times.  But that is not Tolkien's story.  Frodo is not the
champion, the King in hiding.  He is the anonymous one on whom a great
burden has fallen.  At the end of the Belgariad, Garion is King, Overlord
of the West, etc.  At the end of the LOTR, Frodo returns to his origins and
his obscurity, is wounded to the core and sails on the grey ships.

   You speak of Eddings abandoning the stylistic conventions of Tolkien
[under the erroneous assumption that he is imitating Tolkien.]  Actually
the difference is that Tolkien honors and includes Faerie; Eddings does
not.  Many of Tolkien's imitators use the mechanics of Faerie without
understanding it, which is why they fall so flat.  Magic is not just an
alternative to modern technology; it is a state of being, a place of mind.
Faerie is a notoriously hard place to write about.  Tolkien's 'literary
conventions' are not simply idiosyncracies; they are techniques for
capturing the spirit of Faerie.  Eddings doesn't need these techniques
because Faerie is not part of his universe.

>>The fact is that Tolkien merely took (and modified very little) the folk
>>and hero motifs and made them into a rattling good yarn.

   He did rather more than that.

>Unfortunately for Campbell's thesis, he also took a rather large helping
>of christian theology.

   And rather more than just adding a big dolop of Christian theology.

>And I think that is at the root of what makes Tolkien great beyond
>compare, and the rest by and large mere imitators.  Tolkien had something
>to say, something deep from his own beliefs.  His imitators, by contrast,
>have copied the general style and structure of the LOTR (and rather
>pointedly, NOT the Silmarillion!), but left behind all the theology and
>legend.  The result has generally been rather trivial.

   Leave us agree about the triviality of his imitators.  There are a lot
of deep waters in Tolkien's works.

>I liked the first four books fo the Belgariad a lot.  The last one fails
>precisely at thepoint where all the legend and lore have to resolve, at
>the fight between Torak and Belgarion.  Here the plot suddenly becomes
>hard and mechanical.

   I would agree with you that this scene has problems.  However I don't
think that it a matter of the plot becoming hard and mechanical.  This is a
very difficult scene to deal with, as a problem in writing, and Eddings
doesn't quite pull it off.  The trouble is that there is groundwork for
this scene that has to laid for this scene that isn't there.  Torak is
defeated because of an essential need in his character that isn't met.
This is all very well, but when it is sprung on us it comes off as a deux
ex machina contrivance rather than as something satisfyingly essential.  On
the other hand, I thought the scene immediately after Torak's defeat was
very well done.

   Another problem that Eddings has is that he does not deal very well with
his Gods.  They are powerful beings, alright.  But the Pagan Gods were
elemental anima.  In Eddings' universe each God is an elemental of
personality with each God's peoples acquiring the spirit of their God.
That much is explicit.  But he doesn't carry it off very well.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date:     Mon, 19 Sep 88 14:19:52 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@almsa-1.arpa>
Subject:  Re: DUNE sequel sequence

Since there has been recent discussion of the various DUNE books on the
list, I'd like to ask just what the correct sequence of these books is.
I've been reading the later DUNE books in no particular order, just as I
happened to pick up one or another. I must agree that they are nowhere as
engrossing as DUNE itself, but they are better than a lot of other stuff
out there, so I think they are worth reading. However, they'd make more
sense, I'm sure, if I read them in the proper sequence.

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 22:23:00 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Herbert's Dune Series

chris.ESXC15@xerox.com writes:
>The only reason that I can think of for all the criticism of the Dune
>series is that either people didn't read them, or they were using half of
>half of half of their brain (if that much) when they did read them, in
>which case they were wasting their time.

Or it's always possible that there are (gasp!) intelligent, literate people
who don't enjoy the Dune series.

>It's true that Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were not as easy to
>absorb as Dune or the books that followed, but Dune should have given
>readers the perseverance to continue.

I remember that I received _Dune_ and _Children of Dune_ at about the age
of 13, when my grandmother found them at a garage sale. I read the first
right away, and thought it was great (although looking back, I probably
missed some of the subtler aspects). It wasn't until about 4 years later
that I got around to buying _Dune Messiah_. That, I thought, was an awful
book, and I still think so. But I did manage to get through it. And, as you
say, _Dune_ gave me the perseverance to continue. I was amply rewarded by
_Children of Dune_. Although I read it on-and-off for a good many months, I
eventually reached a point (right around the attack of the Laza tigers)
where it really took off, and I couldn't put it down until I'd finished.

> My excuse for not reading the two continuing books 'Messiah' and
>'Children' in one sitting is that I was ten years old at the time.  But
>that didn't stop me from picking them up again six months later.

Sounds similar to my experience, but for different reasons. What about the
latter three books? I thought _God-Emperor of Dune_ was very good, but not
up to the first and third. _Heretics of Dune_ I barely remember, plotwise,
but I remember very clearly some of the characters, and the introduction of
the Honored Mattresses (oops, Honored Matres, I mean).  _Chapterhouse:
Dune_, which I just read this summer, struck me as being the best of the
series, for reasons I can't explain even to myself. I really was
disappointed upon realizing that that was it, the end.

What I had picked up (somewhere, I don't know where) was that Herbert had
the ideas for _Dune_ and _Children of Dune_, and in fact had them largely
written, but had no connecting story where one was clearly needed. So, in
order to bridge the gap, he concocted _Dune Messiah_. If this is the case
(and I'm hoping someone can reliably confirm/deny it), it served that
purpose, and indeed it felt to me like a book written just because it was
needed.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 03:01:41 GMT
From: stiatl!meo@gatech.edu (Miles O'Neal)
Subject: A Wrinkle in Time, etc.

As to who reads Ms L'Engle, this GUY loves her stuff, as does my wife (who
is, indeed, a natural born female.)

Has anybody read anything by her other than the "Time" trilogy? I read one
recently about a girl and some dolphins that was incredible. It dealt with
subjects such as death, life, animal intelligence, teenage love, and
telepathy. That may sound sappy, but its not an easy book to categorize;
but, as usual, she did an incredible job.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 15:49:54 GMT
From: klaes@25.691.enet (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283)
Subject: A Critique of Bjo Trimble's THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976).

[Moderator's Note: This article is the continuation of an article in
SF-LOVERS Digest Issues #271 and #272.]

   The Tholians are one of the most intriguing aliens STAR TREK ever
created, yet so little has been done with them, thereby leaving them quite
mysterious in the process.  In the only episode in which the Tholians were
ever featured, "The Tholian Web", a Tholian starship threatened the
ENTERPRISE for violating the Tholian Assembly's Territorial Annex of space
while the ENTERPRISE was waiting for another starship, the DEFIANT, to
appear from an interphase/space warped sector where our Universe and a
parallel universe meet.  Spock told the Tholian ship commander Loskene that
he needed to wait exactly one hour and fifty- three minutes for the
starship to reappear so that he could rescue Captain Kirk, who was trapped
aboard it (the crew of the DEFIANT was already dead).  Loskene allowed
this, but warned Spock to "be correct [about the time]; we do not tolerate
deceit."  Unfortunately the Tholian ship disturbed the already disturbed
area of space by entering into it, thus throwing the time of the DEFIANT's
reappearance off.  When the ship did not appear, Loskene's ship immediately
fired upon the ENTERPRISE, causing Spock to reply to no one in particular,
"The renowned Tholian punctuality."
   Bjo comments on Spock's remark thusly on page 239: "Tholians may be
slightly better known to Vulcans, for Spock mentions their reputation for
punctuality - a fact nobody else seems to know."  Like her comments on "The
Omega Glory", Bjo misses another general aspect of the STAR TREK Universe,
in this case Spock's very dry and subtle sense of ironic humor when
emotional incidents arise.  I seriously doubt Spock or the Vulcans knew
anything more than the rest of the crew of the ENTERPRISE did about the
Tholians when they first encountered them, which was nothing.  Spock was no
doubt indignant and angry how the Tholians did not wait even one second
over the predicted time before attacking the ship, and let out that one
small bit of sarcasm in the heat of the moment.  Unfortunately, Bjo did not
get the humor, and came up with this whole idea that the Vulcans knew
something of the Tholians which the rest of the United Federation of
Planets did not.  If that were the case, wouldn't they have told the
Federation of the Tholians' fierce defense of their galactic territories,
so that U.F.P. starships could avoid the area?  The ENTERPRISE crew was
quite unfamiliar with this part of the galaxy, the area being charted as
unknown space, and if Spock knew of the potential danger from the Tholians,
he would have undoubtedly warned everyone beforehand.
   This CONCORDANCE comment was picked up by the FASA games, which have
reiterated in their brief reports on the Tholians how the Vulcans possess
some "inside" knowledge of this very alien race.  The fact is, Bjo just
missed the joke.

   In "Tomorrow is Yesterday", United States Air Force Captain 
Christopher - after being beamed aboard the ENTERPRISE, which was 
trapped in his time period - asked Captain Kirk who built the starship.  
Kirk commented that he and the ENTERPRISE were part of the United Earth 
Space Probe Agency (U.E.S.P.A.).  Bjo had this to say about U.E.S.P.A. 
on page 244:  "Presumably not wishing to tell the twentieth-century 
Earthman too much about the future, Kirk makes up this plausible-sounding 
organization to explain the large starship's presence to him.  The 
agency is never mentioned again."
   First off, the comment about U.E.S.P.A. never being mentioned again in
the series is not true: It was mentioned in "Charlie X", where Kirk
referred to it by its acronym only, which was pronounced you-spa".  Also,
Kirk did not use U.E.S.P.A. as a fake name to hide his and the Federation's
identity; in the early episodes, that was the name given to the branch of
the Federation which would later be called Starfleet, which is a bit more
manageable organization title.  Besides, Kirk openly showed Christopher
quite a bit of the ship and Federation technology before deciding that it
might be better if Christopher knew as little as possible about Kirk's
time, to ensure the Federation's safety.

   This then is my examination of Bjo Trimble's CONCORDANCE.  I invite
everyone to do their own review of my efforts, to see if I was accurate or
not, and to please correct me or add to my information if I made any
errors.  The fact that I had to really dig for some of Bjo's mistakes
showed to me just how much work and time she put into this book, which I
think brought a whole new level of understanding and appreciation to one of
the finest science fictions series ever aired on television for many fans.
I hope that my critique will add to the further enjoyment and use of THE
STAR TREK CONCORDANCE and STAR TREK itself for all its fans.

Larry Klaes

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 23 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 274

Today's Topics:

			  Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 88 19:52:14 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

Sorry, forgot to mention above, this is a long one.

>I think the aliens in ALIEN were intelligent.  My points were:

   Let me start out by defining some terms to keep this response from being
too confusing.  First, the Space Jockey is the large skeletal body found in
the wreck on LV247.  Second, the Warrior caste aliens are the one we saw in
Alien and the majority of the ones we saw in Aliens.  Finally, the Queen
caste alien is the one laying the eggs we saw at the end of Aliens.
   I would like to also state that I am of the OPINION that the Warrior
caste are sentient.  I also believe that the Queen caste are sentient and
can present evidence from the movie that I think proves this to be so.
  
>1.  The spacecraft on the planet.  The absolute AMAZEMENT by the Nostromo
>    crew that it was alien; I got the strong impression it was a "first
>    contact ever" sort of thing.
>Reasoning: it was stated that the Nostromo was pre-programmed to divert to
>any emergency beacons.  I believe it was also stated that there was a
>compulsory examination required for any signs of intelligent life.  Since
>"Alien" only took place a couple hundred years in the future, it can be
>assumed that alien life is a sufficient novelty to have required such
>in-depth inspection.  To find two significant alien life forms at once
>(even IF only one was intelligent) is unlikely.

   I don't agree with this assessment because it was my impression that the
Space Jockey was carrying an Alien aboard his ship (either by accident or
design).  I would agree, however, that there was no other known sentient
life in the universe established by the two movies.
    
>(but, however, in *Aliens*, we get the impression that alien contact isn't
>all that special).

   I was under the impression that the only "aliens" that the marines (or
anyone) had encountered was alien animal life.  Note that the marines
refered to this as a "bug hunt".  This left me with the impression that
only non-sentient alien life had been encountered, and that didn't strike
me as violating continuity with the first movie.
   I would also argue that the alien animal life encountered so far was
fairly mundane.  Remember the board of directors sceptisism toward Ripley's
story and description of the Alien.

>2.  Laser protection system for the "eggs" in the spacecraft's hold.
>
>At least one respondent just classed it as a special effect.

   I would agree with this until I saw something to strongly suggest
otherwise.

>I still think it was a hold: due to the lack of any other life forms on
>the planet, it's quite likely the "big" alien brought them in with it.  My
>general impression is that it was a one-man cargo ship, with the eggs as
>cargo.  I can't see one alien (jumping out of the mother's chest, if that
>was the case) producing ALL of those eggs.

   I thought it was a hold at first also.  However, upon multiple viewings
of the movie I have changed my mind.  The drop looks like it goes too far
down to still be part of the Space Jockey's ship (unless, of course, a
large part of the ship is buried).  I am of the opinion now that what we
are seeing is a natural cavern under the derilect that has been "cocooned"
by the Aliens in the same way that the interior of the terraforming power
plant was being cocooned in the second movie. (Well, I said it was my
opinion.)
 
>3.  Apparent space suit on the dead "mother."
>
>Most people have replied that the mother was a different creature.
>However, the size similarities between the "mother" in Aliens and the
>"mother" in Alien make me think they were the same.

   Sorry, I am going to have to side with most people here and say that the
Space Jockey is definitely a different alien being.

>In no case in "Alien" did we see an alien performing in the
>atmosphere of the alien world (apart from jumping on the helmet).

   True but we did see both the Warrior and Queen caste Aliens surviving
without much trouble in outer space so I don't think the original
atmosphere of LV247 would affect the Aliens much.

>As for the "weapons console" bit...  It was noted that the "mother" in
>Alien may have been sitting at a weapons console.  I got the impression
>that it was more of a control couch, which would have been consistent with
>the single-crewmember status of the space ship.  In addition, the large
>size of the alien may have encouraged a one-seat-does-all-type position.
>In any event, I think the spaceship was more advanced than that of the
>technology that spawned the Nostromo.

   I got the impression that this was a communications system.  I thought
this because, as I recall, the three Nostromo members who went out were
using the signal as a homing beacon.  Therefore it would have lead them to
the source of the signal, and thus be a transmitter (IMHO).

>Lastly, wasn't the "mother" from Aliens that was displayed in public in
>California (and later torched) called "the mother?"

   The only thing I've ever heard it called is the Space Jockey. 

>5.  Highly adaptive behavior of the alien on the Nostromo.
>
>.....(numerous examples deleted)......

   I didn't see any conclusive way to prove that the Warrior caste were
definitely sentient.  I think there are some pretty strong circumstantial
arguments.  First, the Warrior in the first movie was smart enough to
escape the destruction of the Nostromo aboard the shuttle.  Second, if the
marines were only used to dealing with animal level intelligence creatures
it would explain why they were trashed so badly by the Aliens (What, we're
fighting something that can think!?).  Finally, the Aliens themselves have
two opposable thumbs.  If an opposable thumb really is a sign of sentience
then the fact that the Aliens have two of them should say something.
   The Queen caste is another story entirely.  At the end of Aliens she
chases Ripley to the top of a platform.  How does she do it?  Why by using
an elevator!  I don't think it possible for any animal to first figure out
how to use an elevator, and then make a damn good guess as to which floor
to go to in addition.
     
   Just to conclude on topic, one of the big problems a lot of people had
in terms of continuity between Alien and Aliens was how easily the Warriors
got shot up in the second movie.  I didn't see this as a problem.  In the
first movie Ripley uses a spear-type gun on the creature and it has no
trouble penetrating the creatures hide.  My question is why the thing's
blood didn't burn through the spear before it stopped the Warrior from
flying free of the shuttle?

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 16:34:36 GMT
From: m10ux!rgr@att.att.com (Duke Robillard)
Subject: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
>I didn't see any conclusive way to prove that the Warrior caste were
>definitely sentient....The Queen caste is another story entirely.

   Okay, here's my theory.  The reason the creature in _Alien_ seemed so
much smarter than the Warriors in _Aliens_ is that she was a developing
Queen Alien.  See, when a face hugger hatches, it can implant two different
kinds of eggs, Warrior or Queen.  If there's no living Queen around (the
aliens are telepathic, so they can tell), it implants a Queen egg.

Duke Robillard 
AT&T Bell Labs
Murray Hill, NJ
rgr@m10ux.ATT.COM
{backbone!}att!m10ux!rgr

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 06:19:35 GMT
From: wen-king@vlsi.caltech.edu (Wen-King Su)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens (Blood Acidity)

11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
>Just to conclude on topic, one of the big problems alot of people had in
>terms of continuity between Alien and Aliens was how easily the Warriors
>got shot up in the second movie.  I didn't see this as a problem.  In the
>first movie Ripley uses a spear-type gun on the creature and it has no
>trouble penetrating the creatures hide.  My question is why the thing's
>blood didn't burn through the spear before it stopped the Warrior from
>flying free of the shuttle?

I agree.  It is entirely possible that the blood of the face-hugger is
much more acidic than that of the adult.  Since the face-hugger is
otherwise defenseless, those with more acidic blood will have an
evolutionary advantage.  In a fully equipped adult, less acidic blood
may be an advantage because the acidity may be costly to maintain.
Thus neither Ripley's spear nor the space ship was badly damaged when
they come in contact with Alien blood.  There is no evidence in either
movies that the blood of the adult Aliens is as acidic as that of the
face-hugger.

Wen-King Su
wen-king@vlsi.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 21:34:56 GMT
From: looking!brad@math.waterloo.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: ALIEN VS. ALIENS

The large alien creature whose skeleton is found at a console in the big
ship from ALIEN is probably of the same race.  Observe the hole in her
chest.  This hole is in the skeleton, round, and seems to be natural rather
than broken.  Ie. it is a vagina.  It would make sense that the aliens
would normally birth this way, but could adapt in other circumstances.

How else do you explain a natural, circular hole?

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 19:48:45 GMT
From: rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: ALIEN VS. ALIENS

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>The large alien creature [...]  Observe the hole in her chest.  This hole
>is in the skeleton [...]  Ie. it is a vagina.  How else do you explain a
>natural, circular hole?

Well, how about one or more of: food intake, waste outlet (disgestive),
waste outlet (non-digestive), air intake, air outlet?

Not to say you're wrong, but it *is* rather hard to judge these things from
a skeleton...

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 18:23:46 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: ALIEN VS. ALIENS

   I beg to differ on the point that the mature aliens blood was less
acidic than the facehugger's.  In ALIENS, if you will remember, when one of
the marines shot the alien that was trying to get into the landrover, it
sprayed blood all over him and it ate right through his armor.  Also, in
the last scenes of the movie, Hicks got blod on him and it ate right
through his armor.  Finally, if you'll remember the hole in the floor that
the marines found where "they bagged one of Ripley's bad guys" it was
several floors deep.  Oh yes, in the original ALIEN, the production company
removed a scene with the alien getting its arm caught in the airlock that
Dallas was trying to lead it into.  It fled when Ash sounded off a klaxon.
The alien lost its arm (it regenerated later) and the acid blood almost ate
a hole in the entire airlock system.  Take it for what it's worth but I
don't think that the physiology of the different forms of the aliens would
be that different to where the plasma acidity would be so much less.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 18:11:46 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

I have been reading this series of articles for some time now and I guess
its time to put my two cents in.
 
First of all I didn't find the intelligence levels of the creature in the
two movies to show much difference.  In the first movie, most of the
thing's brains can actually be attributed to the crew's panic.  I mean the
crew was not trained or armed to handle what happened.  They also weren't
sure what course they should take i.e. what would hurt the creature.  In
the second movie the marines handled it as they would any similar
situation. They shot everything that moved and they didn't care what they
damaged.  They also had the technology and weapons to make it work.  In
both movies the creature basically attacks on sight after first trying to
get as close to its prey unseen as it can.  This is not to say that I find
the creatures completely dim (I would place them somewhere between say a
dog and an ape).  They also have a hive social organization somewhat like
an insects i.e. ants and bees.  I think that this is the source of much of
the purpose often mistaken for inteligence.

There are, especially in the second movie, real signs that the creatures
are not sentient.  First of all they never use tools.  If they were of
equal inteligence (or even close) to man they would have been carrying guns
(captured from the colonists) by the time the Marines arrive.  Or they
would have had their own primative weapons.  Certainly inteligent preditor
who had to capture their prey live would at least have developed nets.  Or
they would at least be wearing some kind of trophys.  The only sign of
inteligence the Queen shows is that she can use an elevator.  However, I
would bet almost any higher animal with fingers (i.e. something that would
let it push buttons) could be taught that.  I am assuming here that the
queen probably was around for awhile hiding in the atmosphere plant and
learned by observing what the humans did.  The only real inteligent thing
the first alien does is hide on the shuttle.  It does attack without
provokation, but there are enough non sentient examples of that i.e.
terrirotiality and flee/attack responses.  Yet even this does not
necessarily show inteligence just preditory instinct.  After it turned her
back, it decided to wait to see if she would return.  It found a hiding
place (which happened to be in the shuttle) and waited.

Essentially I see these creature initially evolving from arboreal (i.e. the
opposible thumbs indicate a need to grasp things like branches) parasite
(i.e. the need for a host for an egg).  My guess is that at some point it
became better to cooperate socially and the hive evolved.  This was
probably due to the fact that live captive hosts insured progeny survival
and group hunting was the best way to capture hosts alive.

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 18:04:26 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens (Blood Acidity)

wen-king@cit-vlsi.UUCP (Wen-King Su) writes:
>I agree.  It is entirely possible that the blood of the face-hugger is
>much more acidic than that of the adult.  Since the face-hugger is
>otherwise defenseless, those with more acidic blood will have an
>evolutionary advantage.  In a fully equipped adult, less acidic blood may
>be an advantage because the acidity may be costly to maintain.  Thus
>neither Ripley's spear nor the space ship was badly damaged when they come
>in contact with Alien blood.  There is no evidence in either movies that
>the blood of the adult Aliens is as acidic as that of the face-hugger.  

   I have to disagree.  There is no evidence to support the hypothosis that
the adults blood is any *less* caustic that the face huggers.  We did see
the effects of the creatures blood in the second movie, and it was
definitely corrosive.  Since we do have a reason to suspect that the
compound involved is the same in both cases (they *are* related, after
all!)  the simplest explanation is that it is the same.

   Scenes that did not make it into the final release of the first movie
showed that the adult forms fluids were just as caustic.

{any vertibrae}!ukma!ukecc!vnend      

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 14:07:42 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: Re: ALIEN VS. ALIENS

rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:

>brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>>The large alien creature [...]  Observe the hole in her chest.  This hole
>>is in the skeleton [...]  Ie. it is a vagina.  How else do you explain a
>>natural, circular hole?
>
> Well, how about one or more of: food intake, waste outlet (disgestive),
> waste outlet (non-digestive), air intake, air outlet?
>
> Not to say you're wrong, but it *is* rather hard to judge these things
> from a skeleton...

Oh yes, don't forget the fact that the skeleton also had a head and a mouth
on the skull which would sort of exclude the hole in the chest from being a
"food intake".  Face it, it is a big ugly hole ripped in the chest by the
alien.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 26 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 275

Today's Topics:

		Books - Eddison (4 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) &
                        Robinson & Vance (3 msgs) & Wolfe &
                        Story Request

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 02:05:38 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Multi-faceted reponse 

gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) writes:
> Another author I should have mentioned is E. R. Eddison, 'The Worm
>Ouroborous'. This (like Wolfe) is well-written, and (unlike Wolfe) along
>Tolkien lines.

I second the recommendation for Eddison's Worm (and his Zimiamvia books, as
well), but I don't entirely agree that it is Tolkienesque.  It is, of
course, pre-Tolkien, and though it resembles LotR in treating a Quest and a
War on an epic scale, its flavor is entirely different.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 02:33:31 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Multi-faceted reponse

archer@elysium.SGI.COM (Archer Sully) writes:
>Now, there is no doubt that 'The Worm Ouroborous' is a significant work of
>fantasy, having influenced Abe Merrit, J.R.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance, and
>just about any other fantasy writer who published in the '30's and '40's
>that you can think of.  But by today's standards, its garbage!

Would that it were so!  Unfortunately, the quality of fantasy has gone
anywhere but up.  Little that has been written in the last thirty years
matches Eddison, and nothing reaches the standard of Tolkien.

>I can only take 3 page descriptions of throne rooms for so long before
>lapsing into a coma, and this tome is full of things like that.

It is.  The Worm Ouroboros is written at a different pace and on a
different scale than the trash with which the press now groans.  It is also
written in a powerful but difficult prose style which invites comparison
with Milton and Sir Thomas Browne.  Magnificence is not a quality often
seen in modern fantasy, and that is what Eddison's three page description
of the throne room of Demonland achieves.

>(note: I think that I hold the current world record for reading TWO, at
>slightly under 8hrs.

I'm pleased to hear that you read it slowly.  It is a book to be savored, a
book in which incidental pleasures are everything and plot lust nothing.

>A guy I knew in high school once read all three books of the trilogy [yes,
>its a trilogy!] on a bet from his dad.  Took him over a week, but he did
>indeed read the entire thing.  Ghastly!)

The Zimiamvia trilogy is distinct from, though tenuously connected to, The
Worm Ouroboros.  If anything it is a greater and more difficult
achievement.  "These books are works, first and foremost, of art.  And they
are irreplaceable."  So said C.S. Lewis.  I couldn't say it better.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 18:45:10 GMT
From: archer@elysium.sgi.com (Archer Sully)
Subject: Re: Multi-faceted reponse

gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) writes:
>  Another author I should have mentioned is E. R. Eddison, 'The Worm
> Ouroborous'. This (like Wolfe) is well-written, and (unlike Wolfe) along
> Tolkien lines.

E. R. Eddison can hardly be described as 'Tolkinesque', as he wrote much of
his work >>before<< Tolkien published any Middle Earth material.

Now, there is no doubt that 'The Worm Ouroborous' is a significant work of
fantasy, having influenced Abe Merrit, J.R.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance, and just
about any other fantasy writer who published in the '30's and '40's that
you can think of.  But by today's standards, its garbage!  I can only take
3 page descriptions of throne rooms for so long before lapsing into a coma,
and this tome is full of things like that.  In addition, its horribly
predictable, and has one of the hokiest endings I've ever read.  I suppose
its all right considering that Edison invented a lot of these cliches (or
at least introduced them into modern fantasy) but no one should have to
suffer through this sort of thing today.

(Note: I think that I hold the current world record for reading TWO, at
slightly under 8hrs.  A guy I knew in high school once read all three books
of the trilogy [yes, it's a trilogy!] on a bet from his dad.  Took him over
a week, but he did indeed read the entire thing.  Ghastly!)

Archer Sully
archer@sgi.com

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 16:25:01 GMT
From: archer@elysium.sgi.com (Archer Sully)
Subject: Re: Multi-faceted reponse

mjlarsen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>archer@elysium.SGI.COM (Archer Sully) writes:
>>Now, there is no doubt that 'The Worm Ouroborous' is a significant work
>>of fantasy, having influenced Abe Merrit, J.R.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance, and
>>just about any other fantasy writer who published in the '30's and '40's
>>that you can think of.  But by today's standards, its garbage!
>
> Would that it were so!  Unfortunately, the quality of fantasy has gone
> anywhere but up.  Little that has been written in the last thirty years
> matches Eddison, and nothing reaches the standard of Tolkien.

I was referring to modern prose style, not modern fantasy.  It is well
documented that nothing approaching the literary merits of TWO has been
published in the last 35 years.  However, modern tastes in prose run more
towards characterization of people rather than places.

>>I can only take 3 page descriptions of throne rooms for so long before
>>lapsing into a coma, and this tome is full of things like that.
> 
> It is.  The Worm Ouroboros is written at a different pace and on a
> different scale than the trash with which the press now groans.  It is
> also written in a powerful but difficult prose style which invites
> comparison with Milton and Sir Thomas Browne.  Magnificence is not a
> quality often seen in modern fantasy, and that is what Eddison's three
> page description of the throne room of Demonland achieves.

Magnificence is one thing, excess is quite another.  When you read how
everything is 'solid gold', 'gem encrusted', etc...  you get kinda burnt
out.  The magnificence is lost in the excess of the description, and that
was my main problem with TWO.
	
I would much rather read Milton (who is also boring to someone raised on
Vonnegut, Tom Wolfe, et al) than Eddison.  His prose really is magnificent.
Eddison's is simply excessive.  While some people like that, most don't.

Eddison is not for everyone (as should be readily apparent :-).  If you
like long, drawn out descriptions with little characterization, no plot to
speak of, disappearing literary devices (what did happen to the narrator,
and how did he was he able to witness some things which only one of the
Demon Lord's survived?).  Most people whose minds aren't rooted in 18th
century sensibilities prefer more modern writers, like say, Kurt Vonnegut
or Tom Robbins.

Archer Sully
archer@sgi.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 88 06:41:47 GMT
From: RWC102@psuvm.bitnet (R. W. F. Clark)
Subject: Re: Deryni

ugcherk@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>The issue here is What do you mean by "superior"? I will grant that the
>Deryni had superior psychic-magical abilities, but Kurtz seems to imply
>that they are just all around "superior." Period. For example, it is all

She doesn't simply imply it.  If we are to judge characters in a book by
their actions, then the majority of the Deryni characters in the book are
vastly superior than the majority of the human characters.  Even Imre and
his lot didn't attempt any form of genocidal warfare against the entire
human race; they even killed the royal family quickly and cleanly.  Imre is
the most evil character who appears in the books, with the only possible
exception being Wencit of Torenth.  However, comparatively, the evil humans
in the book not only kill Deryni, but torture and maim them as well.  I can
hardly even countenance comparing the actions of the 'evil' Deryni with the
actions of the 'evil' humans in the series.

>right for a Deryni to forcibly take over a human's mind and use that human
>to whatever ends he deems "necessary." The sole excuse for this is,
>well...hmmmmmm...well, Deryni *obviously* have this right (as long as

I defy you to produce a single instance in which one of the characters in
the series with whom we are intended to sympathize frivolously or
maliciously used his powers.  In every case in which a 'good' Deryni used
his powers upon a human without that human's permission, the outcome was to
the good of all parties involved.

>they are motivated by a desire to do what is "right," which is a laughable
>qualification in such a scenario) because they are, well, *superior* and
>therefore qualified to make all sorts of sweeping moral decisions not only
>for themselves but for other people as well.

Well, hell, if someone had me as the object of their malicious intents, and
the only way in whichI could save myself and dozens of others from torture,
dismemberment, and death were to make moral decisions for those who
intended my demise, I'd damn well make some pretty sweeping moral judgments
concerning my antagonists.

>And of course, it is the *Deryni* who decide that the *Deryni* are the
>ones qualified to make these kinds of decisions.

Well, who else would?  The slobbering cretins whose only intent is
genocide?

>What's new in elitism?

What's new in egalitarianism to the point of refusing to admit that some
sentients are morally superior to others?

...rutgers!psuvax1!psuvm.BITNET!rwc102

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 15:49:06 GMT
From: mangoe@mimsy.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Kurtz, Zimmer-Bradley

Unfortunately, the one really interesting piece of Deryni writing isn't in
the main series.  It's the Arilan story in _The Deryni Archives_.  And it's
a hallmark of the series that the really interesting characters are
secondary: Arilan, Querom, Evaine, Richenda....  The main characters are
really rather flat.

There's a whole wiccan/esoterica group in fandom, centered around Kurtz,
MZB, a certain others, which really lives out the adage that "Fans are
Slans."  The kind of books that they write play up to this, to the point
where some of their followers act out (sometimes for real) their
identification with these powerful characters.  I don't think the books
stand or fail on this phenomenon, though.  The best Darkover books have
intrinsic merit whether or not the characters could stand to live without
their powers.

The "F are S" attitude is, to my mind, one of SF's worst parochialisms,
though.  Far and away the best fantasy novel I read in the last year was
Mark Helprin's _Winter's Tale_, which was marketed as mainstream.  SF
readers often pride themselves on their adventurousness, but I really
wonder how many of them ventured out to read this book.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 20:05:26 GMT
From: srt@aero.ARPA (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: "Time Pressure" by Spider Robinson

Sorry I didn't respond to the earlier survey, but I was still in the middle
of the book at the time.

I liked Time Pressure a fair amount.  SF novels tend to cover a spectrum
from "science" science fiction such as Ringworld, where the neat new
technology is the main interest in the story to "fiction" science fiction
where the science fiction aspects are only a necessary device or background
to a story that concentrates more heavily on characterization and other
traditional story elements - The Journal of Nikolas the American comes to
mind.

Clearly this is a broad characterization, and not one I care to argue about
one way or the other.  I'm well aware of its limitations.  Time Pressure
falls much nearer the "fiction" end of this story - the science fiction
elements are essentially background for a story more concerned with
characterization and the more appealing aspects of the "hippie" movement,
though the ending slides quickly and heavily back into the "science" end of
the spectrum.

On the whole, I think Time Pressure succeeds.  The depiction of the hippie
community is engaging without being pendantic, and the science fiction
elements - particularly the time traveler's motives - are well done.  The
novel ends on an uplifting note that intimated the fast approaching future
for me more than most cyberpunk.

Overall, I'd recommend it.  At the very least, Spider is an accomplished
wordsmith, and you won't be unhappy with the construction of the novel, or
his use of English.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 23:57:38 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Undiscussed fantasy series

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>QUESTION: have any of the rest of you read/liked/disliked/hated/loved/etc.
>the books by Jack Vance entitled "Lyoness" and "The Green Pearl?"

To quote a friend of mine (who is a big Vance fan): "Did *he* write
*that*?!"  Neither of us ever shelled out money on the second part.  We
both thought that adding about half a truck load of cohesion to the plot
might have saved the thing, but as was, no.

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 14:41:21 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Undiscussed fantasy series

I am quite a fan of Vance.  He writes a lot, and not with a lot of
consistency.  I liked the first 2 Lyoness books, but not as much as his
"Dying Earth" series.  The plotting and writing in the Lyoness books is
better than his usual wild self, but they aren't quite as witty.  I even
liked "Nopalgarth", which I am sure many of you haven't read, being one of
his most obscure novels.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 09:35:06 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.calpoly.edu (THE VIKING)
Subject: Re: Undiscussed fantasy series

rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>>QUESTION: have any of the rest of you
>>read/liked/disliked/hated/loved/etc.  the books by Jack Vance entitled
>>"Lyoness" and "The Green Pearl?"
>
>To quote a friend of mine (who is a big Vance fan): "Did *he* write
>*that*?!"  Neither of us ever shelled out money on the second part.  We
>both thought that adding about half a truck load of cohesion to the plot
>might have saved the thing, but as was, no.  Rob Carriere

I side with the other two posters on this subject, and declare that Mr.
Carriere's opinion is totally hosed. Jack Vance is a superb author and
_Lyonesse_ is one of his best and richest works. I will point out that
Vance does not write books similar to the Terry Brooks/David Eddings
fantasy mass market, a big point in his favor. Vance's books are witty,
colorful and highly original. And he is widely considered to be sf and
fantasy's finest prose stylist.

A word of advice about _Lyonesse_. The book starts a little bit slow, and
an unexpected and very sad thing happens early in the book. Don't let these
things stop you, the book is just loaded with colorful, original, and bold
characters and events.

_The Green Pearl_ is also very good, but in my opinion it does not quite
make it up to _Lyonesse_'s level of excellence. _Lyonesse_ felt like a book
that a craftsman had spent a long time enriching and polishing. _The Green
Pearl_ seemed like a book that was written a little faster, and so had a
little less detail to enrich and deepen its characters and story.

John L. McKernan
Student
Computer Science
Cal Poly S.L.O.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 18:06:09 GMT
From: archer@elysium.sgi.com (Archer Sully)
Subject: Soldier of the Mist

shimrod@rhialto.SGI.COM (IOUN) writes:
> So as not to be entirely negative, let me suggest something to read
> instead. Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ is quite excellent (and he's
> just come out with a post-series coda which is unbelievable).  _Soldier
> of the Mist_ by Wolfe also looks good.  Jack Vance writes some very dry
> and witty fantasy; I recommend Lyonesse and Cugel's Saga. His science
> fiction (not that there's any real difference) is also good. Silverberg's
> _Tom o' Bedlam_ is a nice piece.

_Soldier of the Mist_ is a very good book.  No spoilers, but I recommend to
anyone who has a taste for historical fiction.  It's so good in fact, that
I have no doubt that it will be consigned to oblivion by the vast majority
of sf-fandom.

archer

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 02:10:56 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: fortune telling robot

I'm looking for a short story that I know quite well.  The description that
follows is vague only because the story is easily spoiled.  Two key
features of the story are a fortune telling robot (not Roderick!) and that
the story is told in three parts -- ending first, beginning last.

If you know the name and author of this story, and especially, if you know
where I might find it, I'd be very grateful if you'd drop me a line.  If
you want to know the answer too, drop me a line and I'll share whatever
information I receive.

Thanks.

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.ray.com
{decuac,gatech,necntc,sun,uiucdcs,ukma}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 26 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 276

Today's Topics:

		Films - Not of This Earth & Future Movies &
                        NOpLAnCON Presentations on Current Films &
                        Aliens (2 msgs)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 88 13:43:07 GMT
From: CHAPMAN@kl.sri.com (Walter Chapman)
Subject: What?  Traci Lords in a SciFi [SF] flick ????

What?  I bet you've all been holding your breath waiting for this one.  As
the promo says...

Traci Lords is...  NOT OF THIS EARTH [maybe they're talking about her funny
nipples.....]

Yep.  Coming out on video tape from MGM/UA is NOT OF THIS EARTH.  Expected
shipping date is November 15th.  Rated R (that means Traci won't be
exhibiting her `true' talent :-) )

As the promo sez: "The notorious Traci Lords stars in her first major
feature!  Based on the Roger Corman classic of the '50s, this sci-fi
send-up is fast, fun and frightening.  Nadine (Lords) suspects her new boss
is a little strange, but when she discovers he is actually a blood- sucking
[role reversal ??] alien, she must fight to save Earth from certain
destruction.  Combining humor and suspense in one outrageous movie, sci-fi
buffs and Traci-in-the buff buffs will invade your store in `astronomical'
numbers! "  (end quote)

starring:  Traci Lords, Arthur Roberts, Lenny Juliano, Rebecca Perle
Producer:  Jim Wynorski and Murray Miller
Director:  Jim Wynorski
Screenplay: Jim Wynorski and R.J. Robertson

Is this in `WynorskiVision' and `WynorskiSurround' stereo?  One can only
ask.........this will probably be a classic in the same vein as Rita
Jenrette's ZOMBIE ISLAND (I think that was the title....)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 22:53:44 GMT
From: kelvin@cs.utexas.edu (Kelvin Thompson)
Subject: future movies query

Has anybody ever heard about when and if any of the following movie sequels
is going to be made:

  _35_Up_  Based on the release time of the previous installment
           in the U.S., it seems like they might be filming it about now.

  _Alienses_ I thought I heard that Gibson was finishing the script a 
             *year* ago.  Shouldn't they at least have a production
             schedule by now?  [And here's a wild casting idea: Joan Jett
             as a replacement for Weaver (or her daughter?  or a grown-up
             Newt?)]

  _Toontown_ I read somewhere that a lot of the creative people
             on _Roger_Rabbit_ got burnt out and didn't know if they wanted
             to do a sequel.  My guess is the studios will force a sequel
             regardless of whether they can find competent writers,
             directors, animators, etc.

Hard info preferred over speculation.  Thanks in advance.

Kelvin Thompson
kelvin@cs.utexas.edu
{...,uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!kelvin

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 21:03:31 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: NOpLAnCON Presentations on Current Films

		      Presentations on Current Films
			   (seen at Nolacon II)
		      Film comments by Mark R. Leeper

     One of the long-standing traditions of worldcons is the presentation
of upcoming film and television releases.  The tradition started with the
1976 Kansas City Worldcon (MidAmericon).  There one filmmaker, a George
Lucas famous for having made a successful rock-and-roll film, brought a
low-budget science fiction film he was working on.  It was a genuine mess.
Some of us took the representative aside and told him what we'd really like
to see.  Luckily it was not too late for them to incorporate our
suggestions and the result was a heck of a good film.

     If you believe that one....

     In any case, I cannot remember a worldcon in the last twelve years
that has such a set of losers coming up.  I have a positive expectation for
only two of dozens of films coming up.  Best looking is ALIEN NATION.  The
trailers have already started showing for this one in the theaters.  The
idea is that some time in the not-too-distant future aliens arrive in large
numbers and set up their own ghettos in Los Angeles (right on the outskirts
of Toontown?).  They look human except where you and I have hair on our
heads, their heads look like brown watermelons.  Hey, don't laugh.  There
are people in my family who look like that!

     Anyhow, the aliens become a protected minority affirmative action
group presumably because they have a long history of being persecuted and
discriminated against unlike, say, the Jews.  James Caan plays a Los
Angeles cop.  His partner is played by Mandy Patinkin, who usually plays a
Jew but in this film he plays either one of the aliens or a Jew disguised
as one of the aliens so that some Jew finally gets some benefit from
affirmative action.

     ALIEN NATION (formerly OUTER HEAT but there were too many "Heat" films
already) has the look of an expensive film.  The mystery aspects are
reminiscent of SOYLENT GREEN, but the look of the film is crisper --
perhaps even like BLADERUNNER.  Of course, at this point any decent-looking
film that is neither a sequel nor a remake is promising.

     A little less promising is the new BATMAN film.  I will give you the
bad news first.  The studio has signed a big star for the title role.  Now
let's try a little experiment.  Picture who you think would be a good
Batman.  Anybody picture Beetlejuice?  How about the gum-chewing geek from
NIGHT SHIFT?  Nobody?  I guess you just don't have what it takes to be a
Hollywood executive.  Yes, it's smash comedy star Michael Keaton who is
going to play Bruce Wayne.  But, I hear you ask, isn't he a little ... uh
... small to play Batman?  Well, he has been working out and of course
Batman was never that big anyway; he just wore a big suit with body armor.
Yes, he did.  Sure.

     The studio showed some sketches of the Batmobile.  The audience did
not like it.  The Batplane--some production sketches of it flying in the
narrow space between buildings--the audience liked it much more.  It
reminded me a lot of a scene from a certain science fiction film from 1977.
We will know for sure if Robin has to fly in the trench between buildings
to drop missiles down a certain manhole.  The look of the city is supposed
to be a 1990s city as seen from the 1930s.  Uh-huh.  Anton Furst is doing
the set design.  He did COMPANY OF WOLVES and is ready to move from wolves
to bats.  They will get an unknown to play Robin.  Presumably Eddie Murphy
had enough sense to turn the role down.  Jack Nicholson will play the
Joker.  I have heard a lot of people say nobody else would look right in
the role.  That is interesting, since the Joker was drawn to look like a
character in a then well-known film.  The Joker was based on Conrad Veidt,
whose face was twisted in a rictus grin in THE MAN WHO LAUGHS.  So for good
reason Veidt looked the part more than Nicholson.  Of course that was long
ago.

     We are to be reassured, however, because the people putting together
the film are genuine fans of the comic book.  What they are not telling you
is that they only really get a chance to read the comic books when they are
done with their paper routes and when they aren't out trading baseball
cards.  I wonder if the people who make the "Care Bears" movies are genuine
fans of the Care Bears.  That might explain a lot.

     And while we are on the subject of having a lot to explain, we saw a
preview of the new WAR OF THE WORLDS television show.  The premise is that
somebody found a lot of never-produced scripts for the old INVADERS
television show and is recycling them.  Ooops, sorry.  That's my premise.
The idea is that the world really was nearly destroyed in 1953, just like
George Pal showed us.  The government bottled up a bunch of aliens--they're
not really Martians--and now they have escaped.  They should not be all
that hard to round up but for three little things: 1) these guys are a lot
more muscular and powerful than Pal let on, 2) they can inhabit dead bodies
and make themselves look human, and 3) nobody remembers that most of the
world was destroyed by aliens.  I'm going to say that again because you
probably think that was a typographical error.  Nobody remembers that most
of the world was destroyed by aliens.  What do people think destroyed most
of the major cities in 1953?  Well, most people have not given the question
a whole lot of thought.  Don't knock it.  The characters really look like
people who might forget little details like an alien invasion.  The first
episode will feature war machines that look like and make noises like the
ones in the film.  Unfortunately the war machines all get destroyed, but we
are left with a bunch of aliens walking around in human suits, just likes
Wells might have written if he had thought of it.  Yes.

     What else is on the drawing boards?  Take any popular film of the past
five years and increment the suffix by one.  COCOON I, for example, will
have a COCOON II.  ROBOCOP I will have a ROBOCOP II.  Of course, he gets
kicked off the force in it so the title is a misnomer, but who would go to
see ROBOCIVILIAN?  (There was a whole presentation on the making of the the
original ROBOCOP that I will discuss later.)  BACK TO THE FUTURE I will
give rise to BACK TO THE FUTURE II; NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET IV will become
NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET V.  DR. NO XIV: THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS will soon have
a DR. NO XV.  THE FLY I will have a THE FLY II, in which Brundle Jr.
follows in all six of his father's footsteps.  INDIANA JONES III (actually
INDIANA JONES AND THE LOST CRUSADE) will feature an older Indiana Jones,
contrary to the original plan, because Harrison Ford isn't getting any
younger, also contrary to the original plan.  Indy's papa will be played by
Sean Connery (whom many of us will remember from DARBY O'GILL AND THE
LITTLE PEOPLE and similar films).  ALIENS II (or ALIEN III) will have
Sigourney Weaver in a coma as the Russkies play with the aliens to make new
weapons, but Weaver will back in ALIEN IV in full force.  There is no
comment yet as to whether she will stick iwth the ALIEN series after that
or will call it quits after IV or will ride the series for three or four
more entries.  If her career sours enough, it is probably comforting for
her to know that she will always be able to find work in the upcoming ALIEN
sequel.  (All these sequels to popular films will be a little late because
the creative (?) geniuses were all on strike.)

     CHILD'S PLAY, which may be a one-shot if it is not popular, is about a
child's toy inhabited by the spirit of a dead gangster.  The dark horse may
well be LIVING ON THE EDGE, which will either be great or will suck pond
water.  It is sort of an alternate universe LEAVE IT TO BEAVER.  Everything
in this world is familiar but different.  The family dog is about the
ugliest thing the screen has ever seen, with three-inch fleas constantly
chewing at him.  All technology in the world seems connected in some way to
using tubes to transport things.  The feel is probably like that of
TERRORVISION.  Time will tell.

     I also went to a presentation on the making of ROBOCOP.  It was
inspired by Stan Lee's neurotic superheroes in Marvel Comics.  This was a
very informative panel and told you how they did all those wonderful
special effects that are such audience pleasers.  The presentation included
slides of the process used to film how they shot pieces off of the main
character, fingers first, then hands, then whole arms ripped off.  Good
stuff like that, you know.  well, for example, the way they shoot an arm
off a character is by attaching a fake arm with Velcro and attaching a line
from a rod and reel.  Then a fisherman off-stage can just snap away the
arm.  How wonderful somebody figured that out!  Then for a touch of
realism, there is the scene where a man falls into a vat of toxic waste and
when he crawls out he is melting right on screen.  This was actually a
reprise of an effect that some of the same people worked on for a nearly
worthless film called THE INCREDIBLE MELTING MAN.  But the capper is when
the melting man is hit by a truck and sort of splatters.  To create the
wonderful effect that was clearly needed they took the table scraps of the
people working on the film and let them rot in an open garbage can for two
weeks.  It was these scraps that were used for the insides of the dummy
that was hit by the car.  Charming.

     What the producers of the film objected to was that the Hollywood
censors cut so much from the film.  The first killing by the ED-209 in the
film was supposed to really set the tone for the film as being humorous.
We see the ED-209 gun a man down in a board room during a demo, but it is
just left at that.  In the original scene, the robot just pumped thousands
of rounds of ammunition into the body and it just kept quivering.  Test
audiences laughed very hard at this comically overdone scene but the
Hollywood censors cut it.  Now, silly me, I thought there were no censors
in Hollywood.  I thought that the issue was not one of censorship against
artistic freedom but rather one of artistic integrity versus money and the
producers, not wanting to accept the decreased profits that go with an X-
rated film, instead gave their audiences what they themselves call an
inferior product in order to boost profits.  And for having made this
decision they want sympathy. On its own merits I give this film a positive
rating, but well below what most people seem to have given it.

     It seems strange to say I hate to see a particular sort of special
effect used in science fiction but using gore effects in science fiction
films changes plot stress from wonder to horror.

     Well, that's the lineup, kiddies.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 18:46:15 GMT
From: bucsb!ngeow@buita.bu.edu (Yee Kwong Ngeow)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

rgr@m10ux.UUCP (Duke Robillard) writes:
>11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:

>>     I didn't see any conclusive way to prove that the Warrior caste were
>>definitely sentient....The Queen caste is another story entirely.
>
>    Okay, here's my theory.  The reason the creature in _Alien_ seemed so
>much smarter than the Warriors in _Aliens_ is that she was a developing
>Queen Alien.  See, when a face hugger hatches, it can implant two
>different kinds of eggs, Warrior or Queen.  If there's no living Queen
>around (the aliens are telepathic, so they can tell), it implants a Queen
>egg.

There are some interesting parallels in the insect world right here on
earth. I remember an article states if the queen bee dies, another work bee
(ordinary type) would develop features of the Queen bee (e.g. lay eggs,
regulate the nest, etc) until a *REAL* queen bee is born.

Maybe the Warrior in Alien is a Warrior, sensing the absent of a Queen,
triggered some hormones which transforms it into the Queen??

Kwong

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 18:32:49 GMT
From: survey@e.ms.uky.edu (D. W. James  -- Staff Account)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

rgr@m10ux.UUCP (Duke Robillard) writes:
>11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
>>     I didn't see any conclusive way to prove that the Warrior caste were
>>definitely sentient....The Queen caste is another story entirely.
>
>    Okay, here's my theory.  The reason the creature in _Alien_ seemed so
>much smarter than the Warriors in _Aliens_ is that she was a developing
>Queen Alien.  See, when a face hugger hatches, it can implant two
>different kinds of eggs, Warrior or Queen.  If there's no living Queen
>around (the aliens are telepathic, so they can tell), it implants a Queen
>egg.

The theory, as originally advanced the last time this discussion came
along, was that *any* of the warrior mode aliens could become a queen,
given the proper conditions and no other queen around (no need for esp,
smell works quite nicely as an inhibitor clue.)

Basically, the clues we have to date seem to indicate a life cycle that
runs something like this:

   "Egg" (not really an egg, but close enough.  Really a hybernating
      facehugger.)
   Facehugger:  The vector.  All it really needs to implant an
      embrio is an oriface.
   Implant (Studies host, designs growing alien to be effective
      against host (probably limited to size limits, more than likely.))
   Alien  (Include the chestburster in this stage.  What some people
      are calling the "warrior" caste.  *Can* reproduce! When situation
      (food supply?) does not warrant further development (being alone, for
      example) this stage can coocoon living victoms, who then change into
      "egg"s.  Emergency reproductive stage, ensures that there should be
      warriors to defend developing queen, etc..)
   Queen  (Final reproductive stage.  The first warrior to survive
      long enough becomes a queen.  After that something about her prevents
      developement of other queens (I've suggested smell, it could be
      something else.)  Mass egg producer.  Seems to be fairly
      intelligent.)

This raises a few questions.  First, if the aliens are a naturally evolved
race, what much the creatures they prey on be like?  Imagine something
nasty enough to share a world with these things...

Or, as I and a few others have suggested in the past, these things are a
biological Doomsday weapon...

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 26 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 277

Today's Topics:

		Books - Anthony (4 msgs) & Bujold & Dick &
                        Feist & Lem (2 msgs) & L'Engle &
                        Lustbader & McCaffrey & Parkinson &
                        Kuttner vs. Vance (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 01:17:45 GMT
From: h52y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Eddings (oh, and Anthony too)

lord_lawless@spies.UUCP writes:
>I rather liked Eddings _The Belgarion_ series, but I didn't think he had
>his characters use magic enough.  I mean, Belgario is this super-sorcerer,
>and the rest of them too, and they all barely use their power.  I really
>did however enjoy Piers Anthony's _Apprentice Adept_ Series, as well as
>his _Incarnations of Immortality_ series. His Xanth stuff is cute, but
>nothing compared to those other 2 series'.  Also, a great sci-fi series by
>him is the _Bio of a Space Tyrant_ series.  All great books, from what I
>consider a (most of the time) great sci-fi/fantasy writer.  

I didn't see that sorcery needed to be used all that much in the Belgariad.
If you're interested into seeing their powers used, check out the
Malloreon.

As far as Piers Anthony goes, far be it from me to start up this flame-war
again, but I must disagree in part.  I enjoyed his Incarnations series (and
there's a sixth due out in November, BTW), and the first three books of
Apprentice Adept were masterful.  _Out of Phaze_, however, was drivel.
Normally I buy hardcover if I like the author, but I'm not buying _Robot
Adept_ until it comes out in paperback, and if it's at the same level, I'm
giving up on it.

It seems to me that Anthony has good ideas, but doesn't know when to quit.
The Adept series was best left at three books, and Xanth ceased to be any
good about four books ago.  Oh well... one beast's opinion.

H52Y@CRNLVAX5 
H52Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU 
...!rochester!cornell!vax5.ccs.cornell.edu!h52y

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 01:17:55 GMT
From: h52y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Sixth(?) Book in the Incarnations Series.

As far as there Del Rey prematurely canning the series...not really.  

It had always been billed as a five-volume series: Piers just changed his
mind.  Why he left Del Rey, though, is up for debate--he moved the Xanth
series, too.

Personally, I think it had something to do with the squabble he described
in the author's note to _Wielding a Red Sword_, about "Ligeia".  If it had
been me, I'd have left.

h52y@crnlvax5.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 16:04:00 GMT
From: bradley!pwh@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Sixth(?) Book in the Incarnations S

But Mr. Anthony repeated in all of his afterwords of the Incarnations that
the series was to be only five books long!  Several Times!

I think it's another case of when the author doesn't really know when to
quit...I like Piers Anthony more than the average, but he has a dreadful
tendency to drag things on and on and on and on and on....

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 18:06:00 GMT
From: justin@inmet.inmet.com
Subject: Re: Sixth(?) Book in the Incarnations S

No surprise. It's hinted heavily in the series (I've only read through book
three; it might actually be stated somewhere later) that the Devil is
simply another Incarnation. Indeed, it's hinted that God might be one, as
well, although I'm not sure that Anthony has the sheer chutzpah to write a
book with God as the main character.

Justin du Coeur

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 01:38:06 GMT
From: motmpl!ellymae!anasazi!duane@mcdchg.chi.il.us (Duane Morse)
Subject: _Ethan_of_Athos_ by Lois Bujold (mild spoiler)

Time: relatively far future

Place: planet Athos and space station Kline

SF elements: advanced technology, genetic engineering

Introduction: Dr. Ethan Urquhart is a hard-working, responsible
obstetrician (!) on the all-male planet Athos, a planet voluntarily
insulated from the rest of galactic civilization due to a religious
doctrine which equates women with sin. Advances in genetic engineering and
a supply of ovarian tissue cultures make this possible, but the original
cultures have "worn out". An order was placed for new cultures, but the
shipment received contained only dead cell masses, some from cows! Since
immigration to Athos is almost nil, it's vitally important to get new
cultures quickly, and Ethan is sent to the nearest stellar way station to
oversee the purchase. Unbeknownst to Ethan, another party has lost its
biological sample too, and that sample was of something completely
different.

Main storylines: Ethan's experiences meeting women for the first time;
adventure when he is mistaken for a spy; discovering exactly what happened
to both lost biological shipments.

Critique: I had read two other books by this author (_Shards_of_Honor_ and
_The Warrior's_Apprentice_), and I had enjoyed both of those books so much
(both got 3.5 ratings in my catalogue) that I had noted to read ANY SF by
her. This book reinforced my high option of the author's writing ability.
It takes place in the same "universe" as the others, which is noted for
advanced technology, particularly in genetic engineering; in fact, one of
the major characters here is a minor character in another novel. The
writing style is reminiscent of Jack Chalker - somewhat wry humor, brisk
pace, believable characters.  To give an example of a piece of dialogue I
particularly liked, Ethan has just been rescued from 8 hours of torture and
interrogation (he's suspected by one set of spys of being a spy for another
group), and his rescurer, yet another spy, says, "I've been trying to plant
a bug in Millisor's quarters for three weeks, but his counter-intelligence
equipment is, unfortunately, superb". Ethan replies, "You mainly missed a
lot of screaming." The story is paced perfectly. For example, exactly the
right amount of time is spent giving the reader the flavor of Athos to make
the culture shock of the space station real.

Rating: 4.0 out of 4.0 - ranks with the very best. Once I started it, I
couldn't put it down.  

Duane Morse
(602) 861-7609
...!noao!mcdsun!nud!anasaz!duane

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 22:53:41 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

Blade Runner has always been one of my favorite Science Fiction movies.
Now just recently, I've been getting into Philip K. Dick's books (I read
and throughly enjoyed _A Scanner Darkly_ ) so I decided to read Philip K.
Dick's original novel _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_.  My
expectations were that the novel would be even better a novel than the
movie was a movie.  To my amazement, I was disappointed.  The novel had
none of the symbolism or allegory that made the movie such a masterpiece.

For instance, in the movie the androids' relationship to their creator is
constantly compared to the relationship of man to God.  This relationship
climaxes in the scene where the android Roy kills his creator.  This is a
scene of staggering power, and it is precisely this sort of power that is
_Electric Sheep_ is lacking.  The closest it gets is in scenes dealing with
the bizarre semi-deity Mercer, which is left out of the meeting, and I can
see why.  Never in the novel is it explained what Mercer is, even in the
vaguest sense.

I enjoyed reading _Electric Sheep_ if only for Philip K. Dick's superlative
writing style, but I think it was the first book I've read where I have
actually prefered the movie version.  Any thoughts on this, people?

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 15:11:21 GMT
From: sfsup!sgore@att.att.com (+Gore S.)
Subject: Re: Undiscussed fantasy series

I am currently reading the Magician series by Raymond Feist, and am
enjoying it.  The fairies and dwarves smack a little of Tolkien, but on the
whole the magical aspects of the series are pretty enjoyable.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 17:52:07 GMT
From: rick@ge1cbx.uucp (NUB @ NUB.HUB)
Subject: Re: Literary merit (was: Re: First One (sort of))

> Does anyone care to name any other books which they think have
> REAL[tm] *Literary Merit*?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd certainly nominate
Stanislaw Lem's "Solaris", "His Master's Voice" and "Fiasco" to the list,
as well as "The Complete Tales of Pirx the Pilot".  Doesn't anyone else on
the net read this author?

Other considerations: Lawrence Durrell, "Tunc" and "Nunquam".  A strange
Englishman who is most noted for his "Alexandria" Quartet, but these two
books are a wonderfully atmospheric SF invention about a man who tries to
build a perfect robot of the world's most beautiful woman.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 09:08:55 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Lemmings

lew@ihlpa (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes:
>rick@ge1cbx.UUCP (NUB @ NUB.HUB) writes:
>> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd certainly nominate
>> Stanislaw Lem's "Solaris", "His Master's Voice" and "Fiasco" to the
>> list, as well as "The Complete Tales of Pirx the Pilot".  Doesn't anyone
>> else on the net read this author?

Yup.  I wasn't going to say anything, since I'm one third the way through
his "newest" book, and was planning to post a review first.

But as you mentioned my name...

Actually, it's his *first* novel, but it was only published in the early
eighties.  The English translation has just come out.

Data:
   HOSPITAL OF THE TRANSFIGURATION
   Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
   ISBN: 0-15-142186-2
   trans: William Brand   207pp

It isn't science fiction.  It reads like Lem through and through though, so
you might not notice.  It's about a Polish medical stu- dent who starts
working in a mental hospital a few months after the Germans occupy Poland
in 1939.  The doctors are perhaps as de- ranged as the patients.

>I learned about Lem from Hofstadter's THE MIND'S I which contained NON
>SERVIAM, an excerpt from A PERFECT VACUUM,

I'm glad I ran into Lem long long before Hofstadter.  A friend gave a
reading of "The Dragons of Probability" (from THE CYBERBIAD) and of Borges
"The Lottery".  Hooked me on both authors the very same night.

>which I think is unsurpassed by Lem's other works.

I think FIASCO is his best.

>FIASCO was thought provoking and sophisticated in many ways, but there is
>a fifties style to Lem's technology and sociology that you have to adapt
>to if you want to enjoy his books.

Really?  The way he handled the grasers and so on struck me as the literary
equivalent of the docking to the Danube waltz scene from 2001.  I have
never read science fictional technology portrayed so perfectly before.

What do you mean by a fifties sociology?  That it wasn't cyberpunk?

Anyway, even if it is a "fifties-style", I simply didn't notice.  The book
was so rich on both philosophical and suspense levels that I was just blow
away.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

From: sun.soe!stadnism@rutgers.edu ( Steven Stadnicki)
Subject: L'engle
Date: 24 Sep 88 23:00:54 GMT

meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) writes:
> As to who reads Ms L'Engle, this GUY loves her stuff, as does my wife
> (who is, indeed, a natural born female.)
>
> Has anybody read anything by her other than the "Time" trilogy? I read
> one recently about a girl and some dolphins that was incredible. It dealt
> with subjects such as death, life, animal intelligence, teenage love, and
> telepathy. That may sound sappy, but its not an easy book to categorize;
> but, as usual, she did an incredible job.

I think the book in question is "A Ring of Pure and Endless Light", and
yes, it is incredible.  True story (well, almost): Several years ago, our
family took a vacation in Florida, with me and my sister both bringing
ample reading material.  After mine ran out, I noticed that she had a
L'engle book, and, having read the WIT series, I asked to borrow it ... of
course, it turned out to be "Ring", and I actually went down to the beach
alone that night and stared into the water for 15 minutes sort of looking
for dolphins or something.  I reread the book recently, and it still stuns
me.

Incidentally, another L'engle note: my first SF books (I think) were the
Wrinkle books; at the time (I was 8) my favorite was "A Wind in the Door",
with (massive mental block -- insert the name of the third book here) my
least favorite -- too dull and slow-moving.  A year ago, though, I reread
all three, and the aforementioned third book was absolutely stunning.
Other than the Wrinkle books, Ring, and "Arm of the Starfish", though, I
haven't really read anything else by her.  Any recommendations?

Steven Stadnicki
stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 18:50:29 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Lustbader & the _Sunset_Warrior_

I find that I prefer Eric van Lustbader's Sunset Warrior trilogy to The
Ninja and The Miko.  I know he has other books like the latter out, but has
he written any more sci-fi/fantasy stuff like the Sunset Warrior?  Thanks.

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 21:28:08 GMT
From: ut6y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: McCaffrey - any "cast of characters" guide available?

Well, All I know in this vein is that FORTHCOMING BOOKS, the authoritative
listing of what's on its way, mentions two books for McCaffrey in the Pern
universe.  The first one looks like a long version of the DragonDex, and is
titled "The People of Pern", due out any day now.  The second, due out in
November, had been rumoured to be titled "Dragonsdawn", but now has a
different title (which I forget).  That is, "Dragonsdawn" was originally
rumoured for November, and Forthcoming Books shows another Pern book for
November instead....  And so the babble went on and o...

Michael Scott Shappe
208 Dryden Road Apartment 304
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/277-6461
BITNET: UT6Y@CRNLVAX5
InterNet: UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
UUCP:...!rochester!cornell!vax5!ut6y

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 00:56:14 GMT
From: terrell@musky2.muskingum.edu (Roger Terrell)
Subject: BOOK REVIEW: Starsong

TSR Inc., best known for the role-playing games (Dungeons & Dragons, etc.)
it has produced, has departed from its norm and published a book which has
nothing at all to do with any of its games or previous materials.

_STARSONG_, by Dan Parkinson, is a science-fantasy love story according to
its own cover, and that is a fairly accurate description.  It is loaded
with emotion, and not all of it is love.  This is a well-written story in
every way that I can think of.  It is worth buying.

I will not summarize the story here, but suffice to say that if TSR keeps
publishing books like this, they are bound to do well in a market other
than role-playing games.

Roger Terrell
...musky2!terrell (UUCP) 
terrell@muskingum.edu (CSNet)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 02:25:27 GMT
From: g-rh@xait.xerox.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Henry Kuttner and/or Jack Vance

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu writes:
>I'd always thought Vance and Kuttner were two separate people.  What's
>going on here?

   They are.  Kuttner is dead.  Vance is alive.  This is a very old rumor
that apparently has percolated into print.  Kuttner was a prolific (and
excellent) author who wrote under numerous pseudonyms as well as his own
name.  Vance is somewhat of a recluse.  Many years ago there was a fair bit
of amateur scholarship in tracking down who was writing under what name.
Amazing/Fantastic had, in the pulp days, a string of house names.  Campbell
had a policy that an authors name could only appear once in a give table of
contents; if the author had more than one story in a given issue pseudonyms
were used.  Authors frequently used pseudonyms for works in a different
style.  Hence it was (and is) difficult to determine who actually wrote
what.  The Kuttner/Vance identification was an erroneous guess which made
its way into some of the printed amateur scholarship.  It appears that this
error has meandered into Short Story Index.

Richard Harter

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 02:23:43 GMT
From: sdba!mic!d25001@gatech.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Re: Henry Kuttner and/or Jack Vance

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu writes:
>I'd always thought Vance and Kuttner were two separate people.  What's
>going on here?

   Back in the 1940's Henry Kuttner (in collaboration with his wife, C. L.
Moore) became the most prolific sf writer ever -- the team wrote so many
stories so fast that they make Asimov seem like a bad case of writer's
block.  The market of the time could not absorb that volume of work by one
"author" (really, by one by-line).  As a result, the Kuttners published
under as variety of pen-names: Henry Kuttner, C. L. Moore, Lewis Padgett,
Lawrence O'Donnell, ...  The Day Index lists 17 pen-names as of the early
1950's.  (I just looked to count them and noticed: One of those pen-names
is "Woodrow Wilson Smith"!!!!)
   It became a sort of game in fandom whenever a new, good writer appeared
to try to see if it might be the Kuttners under a new name.  Many of the
writers who debuted in the late 1940's were accused of being the Kuttners
(usually just Henry).  Perhaps because his early style was similar to some
early work by the Kuttners, the accusation in the case of Jack Vance was
harder to kill than most.  It would seem to still be going after nearly
forty years.
   Henry Kuttner died in the mid-1950's.  Moore wrote very little after
that and died herself a year or so ago.  Jack Vance is still alive and
writing.
 
Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 26 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 278

Today's Topics:

	     Films - Just Imagine & Midnight Movie Massacre &
                     Batman Movie & Aliens (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 21:04:35 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: JUST IMAGINE

			       JUST IMAGINE
			   (seen at Nolacon II)
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  This is not a particularly good film.
     It is more of a curio of the science fiction film than a
     genuine entertainment experience.  But visually it is very
     interesting and historically it is the forerunner of several
     bad science fiction films of the 1950s.  Look for several
     familiar props like Flash Gordon's spaceship.  Rating: 0.

     I am to the point now where I have seen the vast majority of the good
science fiction films.  It has been a long time since I have seen a science
fiction film I have never seen before that is more than eighteen months
old, and that is a film to be really enthusiastic about.  With that in
mind, I did not have high expectations for JUST IMAGINE.  I guess that
explains why of a group of five of us who went to see the film as a group,
I was the only one who really thought the film was worth defending.

     JUST IMAGINE is a 1930 American comedy, apparently inspired in part by
METROPOLIS.  The film starts by showing how different 1930 was from 1880,
then proceeds to tell a story set in a 1980 as far advanced from 1930 as
1930 was over 1880.  Airplanes are as common in the skies over the city as
cars used to be in the streets, but these planes have fans in the wings to
allow them to travel slowly or even just hover while the passengers walk on
the wings.  Some changes were not far off the mark.  Rather than towels,
sinks come equipped with electric hand driers.  To give the audience
someone of their own time to identify with, we have a man revived from
fifty years of suspended animation brought on by a lightning strike.  The
actor, and as I remember character, had been a sort of vaudeville comic.
He became a device for explaining the sights we see, but the main character
is a 1980 pilot who must, in a court of law, prove himself more worthy of
the girl he loves than another man is.  The court considers a newspaper
publisher more worthy, so our hero agrees to pilot the first spaceship to
Mars.  And what is on Mars?  Beautiful women.  Yup, this is the forerunner
of films such as CAT WOMEN OF THE MOON, ABBOTT AND COSTELLO GO TO MARS,
MISSILE TO THE MOON, and QUEEN OF OUTER SPACE.  I cannot claim to be that
keen on the descendents of this film, but for a 1930 film, JUST IMAGINE is
not too shabby.  Rate it a flat 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.  I am glad I
finally saw it.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 21:05:39 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: MIDNIGHT MOVIE MASSACRE

			  MIDNIGHT MOVIE MASSACRE
			   (seen at Nolacon II)
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  Neither competent enough to be fun nor
     incompetent enough to be funny.  Approximately one hundred
     attempted pieces of humor.  About two work.  Same fail
     spectacularly.  Rating: -3.

     Wade Williams is a well-known fan of 1950s science fiction movies and
television.  Of late, when you see 1950s science fiction television shows
turning up in video stores or on television, they almost invariably show a
recent copyright by Wade Williams.  Why he has bought up these copyrights I
am not sure but rumor had it that he had rereleased the 1950 ROCKETSHIP X-M
with new color footage he added and was planning to do the same with
HIDEOUS SUN DEMON.  The 1988 World Science Fiction Convention featured the
world premiere of MIDNIGHT MOVIE MASSACRE, a film produced by Williams.

     Blech!

     To understand why this film is so bad you need to know a little of how
it came to be made.  Wade Milliams tried to make a sendup of the old
television show SPACE PATROL.  When the film was half made, the product was
clearly so incompetent that the film would never have been released.  Under
any circumstances.  Never.  So here Williams was with only half a film that
had two expensive stars and if he finished it, it would be thrown out.  The
stars?  Well, he got Ann Robinson from WAR OF THE WORLDS and Robert Clarke,
who finished up a good career by being in a number of cheap, bad science
fiction films (though perhaps none so cheap and bad as the first half of
SPACE PATROL).  It was Williams' bright idea to take his film and dress it
up as an *imitation* dead teenager film.  Dead teenager films make money.
There are millions of teenagers willing to shell out big bucks to see
fantasies of others in their age group being carved up like so much
poultry.  (Think about that if you're waiting for the next generation to
come to power and improve things.) How do you make half of SPACE PATROL
into a dead teenager film?  Well, it is a movie that a bunch of teenagers
are watching when an alien comes along and starts knocking them off.  So
Williams can go back and forth between storylines as he shows a movie
within a movie, or more accurately, a stupid waste of time within a stupid
waste of time.

     The outer film is a satire on 1950s science fiction films, the only
films Williams seems to really know well, as well as being a dead teenager
film.  So the whole outer story is set in 1956.  This improves the film
within since it suddenly becomes very prophetic as well as pathetic.  It
predicts 1980s hairstyles for women.  When it shows the earth from space,
it shows light wispy clouds that were never shown in science fiction films
until years later.  Then there is the fact that in the Midwest in 1956
(read that virtually none) had midnight shows.

     Now, don't get me wrong.  I do not mean to imply that the dead
teenager portion of the film has much in the way of dead teenagers.
Instead, it is taken up mostly by showing everything happening in the
audience.  I won't tell all, but while SPACE PATROL is stupid and dull, the
rest of the film can be better described as stupid, dull, and *extremely*
tasteless.

     Treat yourself right.  Skip this film.  This is a -3 film on the -4 to
+4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 17:05:00 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Mark Leeper's BATMAN MOVIE preview review

   Mark Leeper has posted a review of several upcoming films previewed at
Nolacon (this year's World Science Fiction Convention, held in New
Orleans). One of the films he reviews is the upcoming Batman movie, which
some of you may have heard of :-) :-).

leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>     A little less promising is the new BATMAN film.  I will give you the
>bad news first.  The studio has signed a big star for the title role.  Now
>let's try a little experiment.  Picture who you think would be a good
>Batman.  Anybody picture Beetlejuice?  How about the gum-chewing geek from
>NIGHT SHIFT?  Nobody?  I guess you just don't have what it takes to be a
>Hollywood executive.  Yes, it's smash comedy star Michael Keaton who is
>going to play Bruce Wayne.

Well, I guess he hasn't been following rec.arts.comics, since this has been
kicked around over there for better than a month. DC and Warner (if I
remember correctly) did a big presentation on the Batman Movie at the San
Diego Comicon. One of their goals was to alleviate some of the anxiety
about the choice of Keaton as the Batman.

> But, I hear you ask, isn't he a little ... uh ... small to play Batman?
>Well, he has been working out and of course Batman was never that big
>anyway; he just wore a big suit with body armor.  Yes, he did.  Sure.

Mm, yes, the same old complaints about his physical appearance. Most
rec.arts.comics folks are in agreement here, but a little ingenuity (and
makeup) on the part of the filmmakers should suffice. And, as a few people
have pointed out, it would be perfectly in character for Bruce Wayne to use
whatever means necessary to create the image of the Batman. What if Bruce,
a playboy millionaire by day, wasn't really in the top physical condition
he needed? He'd stack the deck somehow, and an armored costume would be one
good way.

>     The studio showed some sketches of the Batmobile.  The audience did
>not like it.  The Batplane--some production sketches of it flying in the
>narrow space between buildings--the audience liked it much more.  It
>reminded me a lot of a scene from a certain science fiction film from
>1977.  We will know for sure if Robin has to fly in the trench between
>buildings to drop missiles down a certain manhole.

First group I've heard of that didn't like the new Batmobile. I guess they
wanted the one with the fins and flaming exhaust. I haven't seen any of it
myself, but most of the reviews and comments I've heard have been more
positive on the Batmobile than anything else. Especially the new
anti-theft/anti-tamper mechanism.

For the plane, sounds like you may be talking about, oh, I don't know,
could it be...STAR WARS? Well, it does kind of make sense that if you want
to run down your average ground-based criminal, a plane that can maneuver
between buildings close to the ground would be a little more effective than
one that has to fly above all of them.

>The look of the city is supposed to be a 1990s city as seen from the
>1930s.  Uh-huh.  Anton Furst is doing the set design.  He did COMPANY OF
>WOLVES and is ready to move from wolves to bats.

I've never heard that description before, but it sounds about right.  The
"feel" that the filmmakers are going for is similar to that of _The Dark
Knight Returns_, a four issue series from a couple years back which helped
to renew Batman's popularity. There is an aura of faded majesty,
magnificent buildings which have become dingy and grimy, almost ready to
collapse under the sins of the city. To someone from the 1930's, the 1990's
would probably be filled with just such massive structures.

Another good comparison might be a lower-tech version of the city used in
_Blade Runner_.

>They will get an unknown to play Robin.  Presumably Eddie Murphy had
>enough sense to turn the role down.

What's this about Murphy? I've heard his name mentioned in connection with
the Robin role a few times before. Does anyone know whether he was ever
actually considered?

>Jack Nicholson will play the Joker.  I have heard a lot of people say
>nobody else would look right in the role.  That is interesting, since the
>Joker was drawn to look like a character in a then well-known film.  The
>Joker was based on Conrad Veidt, whose face was twisted in a rictus grin
>in THE MAN WHO LAUGHS.  So for good reason Veidt looked the part more than
>Nicholson.  Of course that was long ago.

And you can forget all about Caesar Romero. The Joker, as he's been
portrayed in _The Dark Knight Returns_ and the more recent _The Killing
Joke_ is no longer a fun-loving prankster. He's a vicious homicidal maniac,
who, if portrayed right, will scare the daylights out of any of you.
Nicholson's mania from the final stages of _The Shining_ will get him
partway there, but he'll have to get a lot meaner and a lot crazier!

>     We are to be reassured, however, because the people putting together
>the film are genuine fans of the comic book.  What they are not telling
>you is that they only really get a chance to read the comic books when
>they are done with their paper routes and when they aren't out trading
>baseball cards.  I wonder if the people who make the "Care Bears" movies
>are genuine fans of the Care Bears.  That might explain a lot.

Mark, I'm not sure if I read you correctly, but if I do, I have to take
exception to the above remarks. And so will a lot of other people,
especially in rec.arts.comics. The implication that comic books are only
read by children is far from the truth, and extremely far from truth in the
case of the two Batman titles mentioned above (_The Dark Night Returns_ and
_The Killing Joke_). The writers of these two outstanding works of dramatic
fiction also consider themselves to be "genuine fans" of Batman, else they
wouldn't have made the effort they did to create these works.

And by the way, before you say that the writers must be of the
paper-route-and-baseball-card set also, notice who wrote _The Killing
Joke_. It was written by Alan Moore, the same man who wrote _Watchmen_. And
_Watchmen_ was voted a special category Hugo at the same Nolacon where you
saw these previews. If you want to get a good idea of where the Batman
Movie could go if it's done seriously, try reading these two.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 20:00:16 GMT
From: robert@milk10.uucp (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James  -- Staff Account) writes:
>Basically, the clues we have to date seem to indicate a 
>life cycle that runs something like this:
>
>   "Egg" (not really an egg, but close enough.  Really a hybernating
>      facehugger.)

"not really an egg"?  It seemed such to me, given the way the queen was
laying them.

>   Facehugger:  The vector.  All it really needs to implant an
>      embrio is an oriface.

"an orifice".  Now there's a horrible thought.  As bad as deep throating an
implanter must be, it could perhaps be worse, particularly given the height
of the face huggers. Of course, who knows, in certain parts of the galaxy
the face hugger could be quite popular. :-)

>   Implant (Studies host, designs growing alien to be effective
>      against host (probably limited to size limits, more than likely.))

Excellent.  This philosophy, namely that the adult aliens are different
based on the biology of the host and the environment, was born out by the
movie magazine released when Alien was released.  As well, the fact that
the face hugger sheds it's outer layer periodically, thus making it "one
tought little bugger", could imply extreme flexibility of the alien
biology.

>   Alien  (Include the chestburster in this stage.  What some people
>      are calling the "warrior" caste.  *Can* reproduce! When situation
>      (food supply?) does not warrent further development (being alone,
>      for example) this stage can coocoon living victoms, who then change
>      into "egg"s.  Emergency reproductive stage, ensures that there
>      should be warriors to defend developing queen, etc..)

Although one other person here has also said that the people can turn into
"eggs", I don't believe that either of the two movies, or the novels, or
any of the movie magazines bear this out.  The queen lays the eggs.  The
facehuggers jump out of the egg and attack people.  The chestburster kills
the host and then grows into the adult, which as you note, may or may not
be a queen.  The scene in Alien, mentioned previously, wherein Ripley finds
Captain Dallas lying, impregnated, in a cocoon, was filmed, but I don't
believe that he was turning into an egg, he was just going to be
chestbursted.

>This raises a few questions.  First, if the aliens are a naturally evolved
>race, what much the creatures they prey on be like?  Imagine something
>nasty enough to share a world with these things...

>Or, as I and a few others have suggested in the past, these things are a
>biological Doomsday weapon...

I believe this also was mentioned in the Alien movie mag.  I do recall that
some of the original concepts for discovery of the Aliens provided for
finding them not in a crashed spacecraft, but rather in a giant, bulging,
pyramid.  H.R. Geiger did some sketches of the thing, and it looked
obscenely bloated.  Inside the "pyramid" were thousands of eggs.  I forget
whether the pyramid was natural, or manmade, which would be consistent with
manufactured Doomsday weapons.  If the latter, then perhaps the original
concept called for the Doomsday weapons having accidentally wiped out the
creators.

Robert Allen
415-859-2143 (work phone, days)
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 15:06:49 GMT
From: infmx!davek@pyramid.com (David Kosenko)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) writes:
> This raises a few questions.  First, if the aliens are a naturally
> evolved race, what much the creatures they prey on be like?  Imagine
> something nasty enough to share a world with these things...

How about some very large creature with some sort of skin orifice (like
pores) that the Aliens act as parasites toward?  After all, they do exhibit
parasitic qualities (doing damage to the host).  This large creatures could
easily be some harmless herbivore.  The acid blood of the face-huggers
discourages the victim from scraping them off.  The chest-burster would not
cause very much damage to the host in such a relationship.

While they may have been engineered, I tend to doubt it.  While they are
destructive enough, they are too tough to "clean up".  A more ideal
biological weapon would be one that does a lot of damage, then dies, rather
than hibernate until more victims come along.

Dave

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 27 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 279

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Dick (3 msgs) & L'Engle & Lustbader &
                       McCaffrey (2 msgs) & Martin (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 21:51:30 GMT
From: canisius!jarnot@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Jarnot)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
> I enjoyed reading _Electric Sheep_ if only for Philip K. Dick's
> superlative writing style, but I think it was the first book I've read
> where I have actually prefered the movie version.  Any thoughts on this,
> people?

Dan, total agreement here.  _Blade Runner_ was definitely one of the best
SF movies I've seen in that past 10 years, mostly due to the directing of
Ridley Scott.  I, too, saw the movie first and then ran out to my local
bookstore to pick up a copy of Electric Sheep.  I was very disappointed by
the novel, to say the least.  Actually, let me say that I was disappointed
that the novel did not bring out any more of the novel.  Philip K. Dick is
one of the best writers around, but I believe that Hampton Fancher and David
Peoples did a fantastic job of making the finer points of the novel stand
out.  One example is the relationship between man and android.  Of course,
as I stated before, Ridley Scott had alot to do with creating an eerie,
ever dreary San Fransisco for the film, and also creating a mood for the
movie. This had alot to do with making the movie so enjoyable.  Also,
Vangelis' score helped a lot, too...

...!{decvax|watmath|allegra|rocksvax}!sunybcs!canisius!jarnot    

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 21:20:32 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

There are some spoilers here, but if you haven't seen BLADE RUNNER by now,
are you ever likely to?

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>Blade Runner has always been one of my favorite Science Fiction movies.
>Now just recently, I've been getting into Philip K. Dick's books (I read
>and throughly enjoyed _A Scanner Darkly_ ) so I decided to read Philip K.
>Dick's original novel _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_.  My
>expectations were that the novel would be even better a novel than the
>movie was a movie.  To my amazement, I was disappointed.  The novel had
>none of the symbolism or allegory that made the movie such a masterpiece.

BLADE RUNNER is also one of my favorite SF movies.  However, my opinions on
the relative quality of book and movie are opposite to yours.  The movie
played down the main theme of the book -- the illusory nature of individual
identity -- and completely omitted the secondary theme, the mechanical
nature of human consciousness.  In place of these themes we got a skillful
rehash of film noir cynicism and an exciting adventure.

It is true that, for the careful watcher, there were a wealth of allusions
to the possible android nature of the Harrison Ford character.  But these
would have gone by a casual watcher, and few are likely to take the trouble
to pull meaning from an adventure story.  These confusions -- am I an
android, am I a human, does it matter, am I just as mechanical one way as
the other -- were the main subject of DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP.

The tertiary theme, the destruction of Earth's non-human animal life, was
also missing from the movie.  Overall, I would say that they had so little
in common that a comparison is difficult.  As one who has always tended to
the view that significant art not only entertains but illuminates, I would
have to judge the book far superior.

>For instance, in the movie the androids' relationship to their creator is
>constantly compared to the relationship of man to God.  This relationship
>climaxes in the scene where the android Roy kills his creator.  This is a
>scene of staggering power, and it is precisely this sort of power that is
>_Electric Sheep_ is lacking.

Oh yeah.  Really stunning.  It's only been in a hundred hack versions of
FRANKENSTEIN, after all; how could it have lost its power to move the
modern movie-goer?  Perhaps having the basic props of reality knocked out
from under you is less powerful than seeing the monster squeeze poor Vic's
head to death, but this says more about your own level of critical
sophistication than about the relative merits of the book and the movie.
Dick's books do not resort, or need to resort, to such cheap tricks.

Far more powerful to me is the android's final scene, as the antagonist
faces life and death in their wholeness, in the last moment of his own.
All the hair on my arms is lifting as that bird appears again before my
mind's eye.  This is something which has relevance to my own experience,
unlike confronting my creator in his lair and making him pay for all my
suffering.

>The closest it gets is in scenes dealing with the bizarre semi-deity
>Mercer, which is left out of the meeting, and I can see why.  Never in the
>novel is it explained what Mercer is, even in the vaguest sense.

Perhaps that is the explanation in itself?  That if consciousness is
mechanical, a truly superior organism is beyond our comprehension?  That it
is past time we stop thinking of ourselves as nature's finest creation?
Non-action is a form of action, and non-explanation a form of explanation.

Tim Maroney
Consultant
Eclectic Software
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 04:03:38 GMT
From: pglask@umbio.miami.edu (Peter Glaskowsky)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) says:
> Blade Runner has always been one of my favorite Science Fiction movies.
> [...] so I decided to read Philip K. Dick's original novel _Do Androids
> Dream of Electric Sheep_.  My expectations were that the novel would be
> even better a novel than the movie was a movie.  To my amazement, I was
> disappointed.  The novel had none of the symbolism or allegory that made
> the movie such a masterpiece.

Agree strongly. I even found a picture-book paperback in the stores, which
was clearly written from the movie-- like a comic book, but with pictures.
THAT didn't have the awesome impact of the film, either. (Presumably
because it had different dialog, which might very well have been written by
a veteran of "The Starlost".) The movie was unique, and very special. I got
to see it in 70mm, and I'd pay fifty bucks or more to see it that way
again.

I know that a lot of highly-talented people worked on the film, but I
really don't know who gets the credit for this magical transformation.  I
don't even know that it was deliberate, or for that matter, real. I know a
lot of people whose opinions I respect who think that "Blade Runner" was
really bad-- as sf, and just as a movie. (That is, I respect their opinions
on _other_ artistic issues. :-)

I'm sure it would help if I could define more clearly what it is that I
like about the film. I could string together adjectives all day, but
outside the context of my own gray matter, I'm not sure they're all that
useful. It strikes me the same way that several other movies have (e.g.
"Brainstorm"), and many books (e.g., _Norstrilia_, and most of Cordwainer
Smith's other work), if that helps any.

I know that it has a lot to do with religion-- I'm as agnostic as anyone
you'll ever meet, but there's a certain inescapable grandeur to religion
when it's properly presented. There's the clear claim that we are all
inherently greater than we think, that our lives can be far more meaningful
than they really are, and this obviously has a lot of emotional impact.
It's all hooey, of course, but who says _fantasy_ (or sf) has to be
realistic? :-)

There's a lot more to it than religion, though. You can appreciate the
story of Joan d'Arc (or Cordwainer Smith's D'joan) without believing in
Jesus Christ, or even without having _heard_ of him.  The power and the
glory of the human spirit is something which exists, regardless of how it
came about. It's hard to capture in print, but when it works, it's great.

(Note to Thomas Maddox: don't let the laminated mouse brains keep you from
enjoying Cordwainer Smith. If you're looking to enjoy a book, learn to
appreciate those things for their _symbolic_ meaning, however
scientifically silly they may be. SF doesn't always have to be written like
tech manuals, as you've pointed out yourself right here. I'd have made this
point at Nolacon, but it's easier to be pedantic over the net. :-)

ARPA: pglask%umbio.miami.edu@umigw.miami.edu
uucp: uunet!gould!umbio!pglask

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 17:22:20 GMT
From: markb@maxzilla.Encore.COM (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: L'engle

stadnism@sun.soe.UUCP ( Steven Stadnicki) writes:
>meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) writes:
>> As to who reads Ms L'Engle, this GUY loves her stuff, Has anybody read
>> anything by her other than the "Time" trilogy? I read one recently about
>> a girl and some dolphins that was incredible.
>
>I think the book in question is "A Ring of Pure and Endless Light", and I
>reread the book recently, and it still stuns me.

   Close. It's "A Ring of Endless Light".

>Incidentally, another L'engle note: my first SF books (I think) were the
>Wrinkle books; at the time (I was 8) my favorite was "A Wind in the Door",
>with (massive mental block -- insert the name of the third book here) my
>least favorite -- too dull and slow-moving.  A year ago, though, I reread
>all three, and the aforementioned third book was absolutely stunning.
>Other than the Wrinkle books, Ring, and "Arm of the Starfish", though, I
>haven't really read anything else by her.  Any recommendations?

   The third book is "A Swiftly Tilting Planet", which I haven't read in
years.  The fourth book in the Murray family series, "Many Waters" came out
in hardcover in '86 (I think), and in paperback last year.  It's a time
travel story, in which the twins, Sandy and Dennis, are sent back to
antedeluvian (if you don't know, please look it up - it's quite relevant in
this case) times.  I enjoyed it quite a bit.

   I've read almost all the L'Engle I can get my hands on, and recommend
almost all of it.  Oh, "Meet The Austins" (to which "A Ring of Endless
Light" is the second sequel (can't recall the middle book, dammit)) is
obviously aimed at a younger audience, and comes across as simplistic, but
the writing quality is consistent.  For those who insist on some sf or
fantasy element, both "Dragons in the Waters" and "Arm of the Starfish" are
worthwhile.  In non-sf juvies, her fairly recent "A House Like a Lotus" is
an outstanding exploration of hero-worship, pain, lesbianism, and other
issues.  In novels aimed at adults, "The Other Side of the Sun" is a
chilling fictionalization of a black uprising that occurred in South
Carolina(?) around the turn of the century, and "A Severed Wasp" is an
excellent character study.  In non-fiction, she has three books
collectively known as "The Crosswicks Journal" (the individual titles are
"A Circle of Quiet", "The Summer of the Great-Grandmother", and "The
Irrational Season") that are some of the best autobiography I've read.
Just yesterday I spotted a new book of hers in a bookstore window, titled
"Two Part Invention".  I seem to recall reading about it some months back.
If memory serves, it's a non-fiction exploration of her marriage to actor
Hugh Franklin, who passed away a couple of years back.

   The adult novels may be a bit hard to find, but most of the juvies stay
in print pretty consistently.  Happy reading!

Mark Bernstein

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 19:58:22 GMT
From: ugcherk@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Lustbader & the _Sunset_Warrior_

jstehma@hubcap.UUCP (Jeff Stehman) writes:
>I find that I prefer Eric van Lustbader's Sunset Warrior trilogy to The
>Ninja and The Miko.  I know he has other books like the latter out, but
>has he written any more sci-fi/fantasy stuff like the Sunset Warrior?
>Thanks.

This same Eric van Lustbader writes porn novels, if I am not mistaken.  Or
maybe they are just "porn" novels. I don't know -- never read one.  It's
just that a friend of mine read one of his fantasy novels, and we were in
this bookstore that has a large porn magazine section, and across the isle
is their porn book "section." This is only a "section" because they only
had two different books, but one of them was by Lustbader.

Kevin Cherkauer
...![ames,rutgers,boulder,decvax]!sunybcs!ugcherk
 

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 17:31:48 GMT
From: idis!cisunx!jgsst3@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Lucifer)
Subject: Re: McCaffrey - any "cast of characters" guide available?

ut6y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu (Michael Scott Shappe) writes:
>Well, All I know in this vein is that FORTHCOMING BOOKS, the authoritative
>listing of what's on its way, mentions two books for McCaffrey in the Pern
>universe.
>
>The first one looks like a long version of the DragonDex, and is titled
"The People of Pern",   
>The second, due out in November, "Dragonsdawn"

The following information was gleaned from this months issue of LOCUS.

_The_People_of_Pern_ is a collection of art of the people of Pern, looks
pretty good.

_Dragonsdawn_ (the actual title) will be released in hardcover and concerns
the original landing of the colonists on Pern.

John Schmid
UUCP:     {decwrl!allegra,bellcore,cadre,psuvax1}!pitt!cisunx!cisvms!jgsst3
BITNET:   jgsst3@pittvms.bitnet
INTERNET: jgsst3%vms.cis.pittsburgh.edu@vb.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 00:47:11 GMT
From: h52y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: McCaffrey - any "cast of characters" guide available?

If I remember right, the "new" title listed in forthcoming books for 
_Dragonsdawn_ was _The Girl Who Heard Dragons_.  Hmm.....

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 00:05:49 GMT
From: jarvis@caf.mit.edu (Jarvis Jacobs)
Subject: _TUF VOYAGING_ - S'uthlamese's solution

George R. R. Martin's TUF VOYAGING is an excellent novel.  Is George
planning a sequel to TUF VOYAGING?

TUF states " The nature of the S'uthlamese problem is such so as to admit
but one lasting and effectual solution as I have told you from the very
beginning." [pg 369 paperback]

From this statement, I inferred that TUF meant birth control.  "The only
true solution is population control."  [pg 137]

But, Tuf's current biological solution, organic prophylactic dust, can only
be temporary solution. Tuf states " They will reproduce, of course, and
thus the immunity will be passed on and grow more prevalent in successive
generations..."  [pg 368] Thus, the S'uthlamese's expansion problem will
return and since S'uthlamese's technology is greater than six worlds [pg
361], Tuf is sentencing the six worlds, Vandeen, Henry's world, Jazbo,
Roggandor, Skrymir and Azure Triune to eventual defeat if he does not
intervene again.

jarvis@caf.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 03:09:47 GMT
From: jgreely@dimetrodon.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: _TUF VOYAGING_ - S'uthlamese's solution

jarvis@mit-caf.UUCP (Jarvis Jacobs) writes:
>George R. R. Martin's TUF VOYAGING is an excellent novel.  Is George
>planning a sequel to TUF VOYAGING?

One can only hope.  If so, I hope they manage a better cover.  I almost
passed it up, until something in the blurb clicked, and I remembered having
read one of the stories before.

> [quotes about population control deleted]

Yes, he states that active population control is the only way to "solve"
the problem, but that is not a solution he can impose.

  The key is in the God references.  He has offered "human" solutions, to
no avail.  So he gives them a godlike solution.  Anyone care to lay odds on
the remaining S'uthlamese learning a lesson?  When the manna is released
(sterilizing (and feeding!) the vast majority of the populace), it would
take someone truly dim not to realize that the Church of Life Evolving is a
flop.  He is forcibly educating them, and "solving" their problem.

  Not that he really has much choice.  The current evolution of S'uthlam is
a dead-end.  There is enough firepower around to bomb all seven planets
into rubble.  So he prunes.  No one dies, but the vast majority of the
citizens will be unable to reproduce.  Not a human solution, but the only
possible solution given the nature of the problem.

  Remember that the expansionist wars were to provide living space (and
food) for current and future generations.  Given an effectively unlimited
supply of food, the only problem is living space, which solves itself
fairly quickly.  The biggest potential problem is mob violence directed
towards the "lucky few" who are still able to reproduce.

>[pg 368]  Thus, the S'uthlamese's expansion problem will return

  ... in a looong time ...

>and since S'uthlamese's technology is greater than six worlds [pg 361],
>Tuf is sentencing the six worlds, Vandeen, Henry's world, Jazbo,
>Roggandor, Skrymir and Azure Triune to eventual defeat if he does not
>intervene again.

  Not a chance.  Unless the Suthies went to war immediately (with what
morale?), they wouldn't have a chance.

J Greely
jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu
osu-cis!berserk!jgreely

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 27 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 280

Today's Topics:

	      Films - Just Imagine (2 msgs) & Short Reviews &
                      Dead Ringers & Aliens (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 17:34:36 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: JUST IMAGINE

barmar@kulla.think.com.UUCP (Barry Margolin) writes:
> Mark, you left out the most ludicrous feature of Just Imagine (which was
> shown about five years ago at the annual LSC Science Fiction Marathon at
> MIT): it's a musical!  And it is about as good a musical as it is an SF
> movie.  And in standard 1930's style, there was always an unmistakable
> intro building when a character was about to burst into song.  The songs
> were so horrible that our audience began shouting "Don't sing!" whenever
> such an intro appeared.

As I said in my Nolacon con report (available on request): "The musical
numbers, in the style of the times, stop the action completely while the
people sing, but the songs are not bad: 'An Old-Fashioned Girl'; 'I Am the
Words, You Are the Melody'; 'Drink'; 'Never Swat a Fly'; and a vaudeville
number, 'Elmer Remingway.'"

I liked "I Am the Words, You Are the Melody" in itself.  The vaudeville
number was fun to watch, though not great.  "An Old-Fashioned Girl" had an
interesting irony in its portrayal of what the character thought of as "an
old-fashioned girl."

The real problem here is that audiences today are rarely willing to watch a
film and accept the conventions of the time (no pun intended).  As you say,
the intro is 1930s' style.  Fine--we realize films don't do that now, but
so what?  Do people get upset that they haven't dubbed the dialogue to
silent films?  (I won't even mention the colorization flap!)  For that
matter, do people make the same complaint about Fred Astaire films?  I
suspect that in fifty years, people will find the current practice of
having a rock song in every film so that a music video can be produced
ludicrous.  Heck, I find it ludicrous now!  

And not only are they unwilling to watch a film and accept the conventions
of the time, they are unwilling to let anyone else in the audience watch it
either.  If you don't like the film--leave.  Don't disturb everyone around
you by heckling.  (I realize that Margolin was not the heckler here, but
others in the audience were.  Just wanted to make that clear.)  

I enjoy watching older films in part to see what was done differently.
Filmmakers may have improved some aspects, but others, like the use of
lighting as a parallel to the story, seem to have all but vanished.
Luckily, these older films are now shown at extremely inconvenient times at
sceince fiction conventions.  No, that's not a typo--by showing films like
JUST IMAGINE at 6 AM, they are guaranteeing that the people in the film
room are either 1) asleep, in which case they're not heckling, or 2) eager
to *see* and *hear* the film.

Just sign me an unrepentant movie-lover,

Evelyn C. Leeper
201-957-2070
att!mtgzy!ecl
ecl@mtgzy.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 20:31:56 GMT
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Subject: Re: JUST IMAGINE

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>"The musical numbers, in the style of the times, stop the action
>completely while the people sing

Yes, I realized that this was the style of the time.  Had we shown a Busby
Berkely (sp?) film, I suspect the reaction would have been similar.  But
since he didn't do any SF, we got Just Imagine (it was probably dirt cheap,
which helps when a student group is trying to fill a 15-hour schedule).

>And not only are they unwilling to watch a film and accept the conventions
>of the time, they are unwilling to let anyone else in the audience watch
>it either.  If you don't like the film--leave.  Don't disturb everyone
>around you by heckling.

Oh, give us a break.  It was 3am and we were all tired and having some fun
with the film.  At least half the audience joined in the shouts.

In fact, it seems to be traditional at the MIT SF Marathon for the audience
to pick up on a line and run with it for the whole night.  The following
year we showed "The First Men in the Moon" (I think that's the title -- it
was the one about a scientist who builds a spherical spaceship in his
garage, using an antigravity paint for propulsion).  The scientist was
always reminding other characters to close the garage door, and by the end
of the film, so was half the audience.  And we continued to remind various
characters to close the door during most of the rest of the films during
the night.

And we don't only heckle old films.  Last year the audience picked a Kurt
Russel line from "Escape from New York" and found ways to fit it in
throughout the evening.

One should never go to the LSC SF Marathon expecting a tasteful cinematic
experience.  MIT students hiss when characters light up cigarettes, and
laugh at old-style filmmaking conventions.  Even such classics as "Them"
look pretty weird when seen right after "Superman".

Barry Margolin
Thinking Machines Corp.
barmar@think.com
{uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 03:13:57 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (XMRP50000[jdp]-m.r.leeper)
Subject: Three short reviews from Nolacon

		   RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATOES (1988?)
			DEVIL GIRL FROM MARS (1954)
			 THE PROJECTIONIST (1971)
			   (seen at Nolacon II)
		      Film reviews by Mark R. Leeper

RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATOES: I think pretty much everybody knows that a
sequel to a cult film cannot be as good.  Of all the films that have tried
to imitate ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW's success the real sequel, SHOCK
TREATMENT, is one of the lamest.  RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATOES fits the
principle on a technicality.  It is, to all intents and purposes, not a
sequel.  A mad scientist is creating imitation humans and he makes them
from tomatoes.  If he made them from mushrooms or turnips the film would
have a much smaller audience.  Stylistically, RETURN is very different from
the original in a lot of ways, not the least of which is that it is often a
lot funnier.  Among other things it takes a funny and well-deserved swipe
at product placement and another one at RAMBO.  This film isn't LION IN
WINTER but considering it is a low-budget sequel to a not-very-funny spoof
of horror films, RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATOES surely beats the point
spread.  Rate it a low +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

DEVIL GIRL FROM MARS: In spite of its title, this film takes itself pretty
seriously.  several diverse odd characters are at an isolated Scottish inn.
Each has his own melodramatic problems when out of the sky pops a flying
saucer complete with an odd-looking alien woman and a powerful robot.  Her
mission is to kidnap a man and bring him back to Mars as breeding stock.
There is nothing like an alien woman with a deadly raygun and a menacing
robot to help earthlings get their lives in order.  Even making allowances
for the vintage, this film is an interesting historical artifact.
Stylistically much like STRANGER FROM VENUS, and a cut below MAN FROM
PLANET X.  Rate it a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

THE PROJECTIONIST: This film covers 24 hours in the life of a movie theater
projectionist.  And nothing much happens to him.  "Dull stuff," you say?
Oddly enough, no.  See it--it is very worth seeing.  Our projectionist
lives in a series of fantasy worlds.  There is a fake fantasy world he
creates for his friends.  In it he has a desirable young woman who is very
interested in him.  Then there is his real fantasy world in which he is a
costumed super- hero.  Then there are little short films he creates for
himself in his own mind including two about the world of the future: one
optimistic, one pessimistic.  All this is in stark contrast to our hero's
real life.  he lives in a squalid little apartment and has to deal with an
unreasonable boss (Rodney Dangerfield in his first film role, apparently).
There are some remarkable people working at the theater, but the boss sees
them as only cogs in a machine that makes money.  Chuck McCann plays the
title role and shows some versatility and breadth.  Rate it a +2 on the -4
to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 03:16:02 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (XMRP50000[jdp]-m.r.leeper)
Subject: DEAD RINGERS

			       DEAD RINGERS
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  David Cronenberg's latest is an
     adaptation of the novel TWINS by Wood and Geasland with
     Jeremy Irons playing twin brothers.  The acting and the
     technical work are good but the storyline is slow, muddled,
     confusing, and self-contradictory.  Rating: 0.

     Every two or three films David Cronenberg takes another few steps up
the ladder of recognition.  His STEREO and CRIMES OF THE FUTURE are
experiments that went wrong.  I did not find them worth watching.  Then
came SHIVERS (a.k.a. THE PARASITE MURDERS, a.k.a. THEY CAME FROM WITHIN),
RABID, AND THE BROOD.  These are diverting for horror film buffs, but not
actually good films.  SCANNERS and VIDEODROME were actually good and earned
him a respectable following in his own genre.  With THE DEAD ZONE, THE FLY,
and DEAD RINGERS, he is building respect from general audiences.  In fact,
until very near the end DEAD RINGERS is not really a horror film at all.
It is something else; perhaps "surreal" comes the closest to describing it.
In other ways it is unlike other Cronenberg.  Of all Cronenberg's major
films only THE DEAD ZONE has less blood and less observable deformity.
Note that the deformity does not fit into the plot, but seems sort of
plastered on and, unlike in most Cronenberg films, is limited solely to
dialogue and some absurd renderings of medical instruments.  One wonders if
the mutation plot was even in the source of the story (TWINS by Bari Wood
and Jack Geasland).

     The story is about identical twin gynecologists (Beverly Mantle
(played by Jeremy Irons) and his brother Elliot (played by Jeremy Irons).
These twins are so identical that even people who know them well cannot
tell them apart (partially due to the fact they they even have facial marks
in the same places).  (Of the two actors, Irons is probably the more
charismatic and often shamelessly steals scenes from Irons.  From childhood
Beverly and Elliot have shared interests, classes, experiences, even
lovers.  They imitate each other so well that they can hand lovers back and
forth without the lovers suspecting.  Then a new lover comes along, Film
star Clare Niveau (played by Genevieve Bujold) who discovers she has been
handed off.  She chooses one of the twins over the other and that asymmetry
opens a Pandora's box in the brothers' relationship.

     DEAD RINGERS is a spotty affair that sometimes makes sense and
sometimes does not.  Irons does as good a job of split-screen acting as has
ever been done.  And makes no mistake, that is difficult acting.  Nobody
nominated for an acting Oscar this year will have worked harder than Irons,
yet the chances are virtually non-existent that Irons will get industry
recognition for his part in DEAD RINGERS.  But the plot of the film is
plodding and ponderous.  Some things that happen are never very well
explained.  In some scenes it is unclear which brother we are seeing.  The
final scene of the film is flatly impossible given what has led up to it.
Because of the flaws, this gets a low 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 21:21:31 GMT
From: murthy@gefion.cs.cornell.edu (Chet Murthy)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

carlos@beowulf.JPL.NASA.GOV (Carlos Carrion) writes:
>davek@infmx.UUCP (David Kosenko) writes:
>>While they are destructive enough, they are too tough to "clean up".  A
>>more ideal biological weapon would be one that does a lot of damage, then
>>dies, rather than hibernate until more victims come along.
>
>Yes, just like in "Blade Runner": the androids were very tough, very
>destructive, but only lived for 4 years.

Yep.  That's just it - the Aliens were created like the replicants, but,
alas, somewhere they got zapped with too much gamma radiation, and Lo! and
behold!  They don't die, George!

chet
murthy@svax.cs.cornell.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 22:53:27 GMT
From: iconsys!mcd@uunet.uu.net (Mark Dakins)
Subject: Re: ALIEN VS. ALIENS

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>The large alien creature whose skeleton is found at a console in the big
>ship from ALIEN is probably of the same race.  Observe the hole in her
>chest.  This hole is in the skeleton, round, and seems to be natural
>rather than broken.
>
>How else do you explain a natural, circular hole?

Actually, if you listen to the dialog during the exploration of the
derelict I think you will hear someone say something about the space jockey
having been ruptured or exploded from within.

Personally, I have always been fond of the theory that the delelict itself
was once alive.  This allows the space jockey to be a symbiot, or progeny,
or sibling; and the aliens to be an infestation. They are a fatal parasite,
the warning beacon was simply the equivalent of a plague quarantine sign
warning off others of its kind and anyone else who wandered along (and was
smart enough to believe it.)

Mark Dakins
Icon International
774 South 400 East
Orem, UT
uplherc!nrc-ut!iconsys!mcd@utah.cs.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 15:22:24 GMT
From: sfsup!sgore@att.att.com (+Gore S.)
Subject: Re: ALIEN intelligence

SP.HOWITT@SPEECH.MIT.EDU ("Andrew Wilson Howitt") writes:
>Related topic: any speculation on the aliens' sensory system?  The aliens
>can coordinate their movements in large groups, they always seem to know
>where the humans are and the best route to get at the Marines.  Their lack
>of eyes and bulging foreheads suggest to me some kind of sonar system,
>similar to dolphins.  Any comments?

I think this is highly related.  I was just pondering the intelligence of a
creature who would think someone wouldn't notice the slurpy sound of that
egg opening.  I mean Ripley's senses were probably hyped up with
adrenaline--that big slurp was hard to miss.  But then I began thinking
that the queen might not have considered that because she herself didn't
have the sense of hearing.  Would sonar detect slurps?

My point is, either the queen doesn't have the sense (as in hearing) to
consider that Ripley could hear the egg opening, or she doesn't have the
sense (as in intelligence) to realize Ripley would appreciate the threat of
the egg opening.

(All this assumes that you ascribe to the assumption that the queen ordered
the egg to open, supported by Ripley's "you tricky hose bag" look she threw
the queen before torching the eggs)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 18:44:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.com (Larry Smith)
Subject: Nostromo?  Sulaco?

On a slightly different "Alien" vs "Aliens" track, I'd like to pose this
question: Where'd they get the names for those starships?  Nostromo?  I
might buy that one as a quick, off-the-cuff name (maybe the writer made it
up when he noticed a copy of "Prophecies of Nostradomus" just as he reached
the point where he needed a ship name).  But Sulaco?

Most ships in SF have very traditional names.  Star Trek had Enterprise, of
course, but also traditional American ship names: Yorktown, Lexington,
Exeter and so, as well as traditional English names: Excalibur.

Some SF just used letters, or a name and letters: Fireball XL-5, Saucer
C-57D.

Some weirdies do stand out in print SF: The Lying Bastard and Hot Needle of
Inquiry spring to mind.

Where do starship names come from?  Does anyone know the origin of Nostromo
and Sulaco?  Perhaps some mythological reference I don't know of?

And, what would YOU name a starship?  And why?

Larry Smith
lsmith@apollo1.UUCP

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 27 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 281

Today's Topics:

	       Books - McKiernan (3 msgs) & Niven (5 msgs) &
                       Van Vogt & Stories into Novels (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 18:03:20 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: Tolkien and derivative fantasy

jgsst3@cisunx.UUCP writes:
> The problem arises when Tolkien-philes see everything that even faintly
> resembles the writings of their diety (Tolkien) as the work of some hack
> who is merely stealing ideas from the master.  Admittedly there are
> people who have lifted LOTR almost verbatim, changing only names of
> characters and places.  Dennis McKiernan in his _Iron_Tower_ trilogy is
> one of the worst offenders of this sort of plagiarism in my eyes.

   I'm in the middle of book three of _Iron_Tower_ now.  He steals some
parts of LOTR verbatim -- Moria with its the kraken guardian and demon
inhabitant was such a copy that it shocked even me.  But, aside from that
scene, I would hardly classify it as "changing only names of characters and
places."  A *big* difference is the lack of a quest; they are trying to win
a war with armies.

   McKiernan is hardly a master of foreshadowing -- future events tend to
be obvious.  The end may be similiar to LOTR, but the means is different.

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 20:56:08 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Re: Tolkien and derivative fantasy

jstehma@hubcap.UUCP (Jeff Stehman) writes:
>jgsst3@cisunx.UUCP writes:
[on "Tolkien-plagiarizing":]
>> Dennis McKiernan in his _Iron_Tower_ trilogy is one of the worst
>> offenders of this sort of plagiarism in my eyes.
>
> I'm in the middle of book three of _Iron_Tower_ now.  He steals some
> parts of LOTR verbatim -- Moria with its the kraken guardian and demon
> inhabitant was such a copy that it shocked even me.  But, aside from that
> scene, I would hardly classify it as "changing only names of characters
> and places."  A *big* difference is the lack of a quest; they are trying
> to win a war with armies.

I know Dennis is out there on the net somewhere (Yoo hoo?), and he once
said he originally conceived "Iron Tower" as a sequel to LOTR.  Then a
publisher said (essentially), "Change the names and we'll print it."

But I don't think Dennis is a plagiarist, and the "win a war vs. do a
quest" business shows it.  Rather, he's doing an homage to an author whom
he liked very much.  I'm quite the Lovecraft aficianado (surprise!), and I
can tell the difference between a loving homage to, and a cheap rip-off of,
the Cthulhu Mythos.

Whether or not the homage is *enjoyable* as a *story* is up to the
individual reader.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 16:38:35 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@marque.mu.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Request for Reading Materials

jstehma@hubcap.UUCP (Jeff Stehman):
>you might try the Iron Tower Trilogy by McKiernan.  I just finished book
>two.  The mood of the books is good, but, as the author tells you right up
>front, he borrows a lot of stuff from TLOR.  It has been different enough
>for me to enjoy it, but then, I'm not that picky about such things.
>
>Incidently, could someone tell me if the two book series McKiernan has out
>is of the same stuff as the Iron Tower Trilogy?  I don't really care if
>you liked it or not.  :-)

The Silver Call duoogy is the reason for the Iron Tower Trilogy.  Seems
that McKiernan wanted to write about the Dwarves retaking Moria (yes, IN
the LOTR universe), but Chris Tolkien wasn't too happy about the idea.  So
he wrote the Iron Tower trilogy to create different characters and a
different universe and re-set the Silver Call into that universe.

I found the Silver Call interesting both as itself and by the obvious and
non-obvious ties into LOTR.  I rather regret that Tolkien was too obsessed
with territorial boundaries to allow the story in its original form,
though.

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!marque!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 23:14:26 GMT
From: lew@ihlpa.att.com (Lew Mammel, Jr.)
Subject: problems with Niven's Smoke Ring

Larry Niven gives quite a bit of technical detail relating to the orbital
mechanics of the world setting in The_Integral_Trees. I've tried to follow
up on some of it, but it blows up pretty badly - in fact it reminds me of
trying to analyze creationist literature. ( At least this is SUPPOSED to be
fiction. )  I'll start with some of the simpler problems with consistency
among the basic parameters that Niven gives.

1) The orbital period of Voy around its sun is inconsistent with the masses
given for Voy and its sun, and their mean distance. The period is 2.77
years and their mean distance is 250e6 km. I figure this to imply a
combined mass of Voy and its sun of 0.60 solar masses, but Niven gives
1.2+0.5=1.7 solar masses. Do you suppose he just made up the 2.77 ?

2) The orbital period of the Smoke Ring ( and Gold ) around Voy comes out
to 1.7 minutes (!) using Niven's figures for Voy's mass ( 0.5 solar masses)
and the Smoke Ring radius ( 26000 km. )  This is way out of line with the
several hours that is described in the story. Also, the story implies that
the orbital period of Dalton-Quinn tree decreased by a factor of 4 after
its close encounter with Gold ( page 18 - near end of Chapter ONE. )  This
implies the orbital radius was reduced to 40% of its original value based
on Kepler's 3rd law. The problem is that according to the diagrams the
inner radius of the Smoke Ring is more than half the outer radius.

3) There are a whole bunch of problems relating to the Smoke Ring concept,
tides, and the orbital behavior of bodies in the Smoke Ring.  My
observation is that Niven seems to have categorized the various effects and
treats each one without respect to perturbing factors.  For example: The
diagram of Dalton-Quinn tree in the front of the book shows it oriented
perfectly along a radial line from Voy. The ends are shown to be streaming
in opposite directions, but this doesn't affect the orientation! It seems
that once the tidal orientation is established by tides, that's that - then
we move on from there. Another example: the objects in the Smoke Ring obey
simple orbital mechanics regardless of the fact that they are immersed in
an atmosphere.

Perhaps the most fundamental problem is the Smoke Ring itself. Niven
attempts to explain that the Gas Torus maintains it by diffusion, but this
again is categorical thinking. The Smoke Ring as described would dissipate
explosively under its own pressure.

I supposed I'll be flamed for being picky. But if so - let's not call this
"hard" science fiction.  Anyway, I believe he meant to do better than this.
The book is dedicated to Robert Forward, in part "for his help in working
out the parameters of the Smoke Ring."  Jonathan Swift did a much better
job with the orbital mechanics of the Martian satellites discovered by the
Laputans - I've always wondered what kind of help HE had, considering that
orbital mechanics was cutting edge science in his day, and that he needed
an estimate of Mars' mass. ( This is not to mention his amazing
anticipation of the discovery of the satellites themselves. )

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 07:22:33 GMT
From: well!pokey@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: problems with Niven's Smoke Ring

Good article, Lew.  It's nice to see somebody here actually doing some
math, instead of arguing about how many prejudiced faan can dance in the
center of Corwin's pattern for the first time.

I agree with all of your gotchas except for this one:

>Perhaps the most fundamental problem is the Smoke Ring itself. Niven
>attempts to explain that the Gas Torus maintains it by diffusion, but this
>again is categorical thinking. The Smoke Ring as described would dissipate
>explosively under its own pressure.

See, what you've missed is that a gas torus this big maintains itself via
its own gravity.  Niven came across this effect when he got hundreds of
letters about the gravitational instability of ringworld.  Or perhaps he
didn't make the leap from the instability of ringworld to the gravity of a
torus, but instead heard about it from Bob Forward.  I know that Forward
knew about this, because I told him about it myself.  (And his first
comment was about the scale height of such a toroidal atmosphere...)

The math involved is complicated, involving elliptic integrals, but was
basically solved by Laplace in 1787, in a paper showing that the rings of
Saturn could not be solid.  For details see chapter 12 of Sir Horace Lamb's
classic HYDRODYNAMICS.  First published in 1879, the sixth edition is still
in print and, more amazingly, is still in use as a textbook.

Jef Poskanzer
jef@rtsg.ee.lbl.gov
...well!pokey

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 08:04:13 GMT
From: bsu-cs!crusader@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Erick L. King)
Subject: A Larry Niven list.....

If anyone out there has a complete one I would be more than ecstatic to see
it.  I've been a Niven fan since I started reading SF and I would like to
make sure that I have all of his works.

Erick L. King
8408 N. Glacier Dr.
Muncie In. 47303   
UUCP: crusader@bsu-cs.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 03:37:01 GMT
From: lew@ihlpa.att.com (Lew Mammel, Jr.)
Subject: Re: problems with Niven's Smoke Ring

pokey@well.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) writes:
> See, what you've missed is that a gas torus this big maintains itself via
> its own gravity.  Niven came across this effect when he got hundreds of
> letters about the gravitational instability of ringworld.  Or perhaps he
> didn't make the leap from the instability of ringworld to the gravity of
> a torus, but instead heard about it from Bob Forward.  I know that
> Forward knew about this, because I told him about it myself.  (And his
> first comment was about the scale height of such a toroidal
> atmosphere...)

I'm glad you didn't claim that Niven knew this all along! There is no
indication that self-gravity is a factor in the book itself. Anyway, since
this is all for fun ( It had better be! ) I'll bite. I made some notes some
years ago on "Gravitationally self-bound isothermal ideal gas", as a result
of seeing EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which has a gas planet in it. I just took
the formula "dee pee dee zee equals minus rho gee" ( poetry for physicists
:-) and generalized it to "dee pee dee are equals minus rho gee of are", g
now being g(r) and a simple integral function of the density from 0 to r.
The characteristic length comes out to be ( I'll write this one: )

   r0 = ( p0 / 4*pi*G ) ^ 0.5  / rho0

For earth atmosphere p0 and rho0 this comes to 1.1e7 meters. This is just
the scale of the Smoke Ring ( 2.6e7 meters. ) However, when I integrate
numerically ( I just did this; in my notes I tried to work out a closed
solution. ) I get the following:

   r/r0         rho/rho0        m/(4*pi*r0^3*rho0)

   1.000000     0.853383	0.303395
   2.000000	0.571513	1.896841
   3.000000	0.345395	4.657080
   4.000000	0.207609	7.909296
   5.000000	0.129499	11.203228
   6.000000	0.084815	14.352082
   7.000000	0.058266	17.305557
   8.000000	0.041770	20.067724
   9.000000	0.031062	22.660196
   10.000000	0.023831	25.107755

So, at 100,000 km we still require a substantial atmosphere to keep the
core compressed. What I'm claiming is that the Smoke Ring isn't big enough
for gravitational self-containment - and if it were, it would form itself
into spheres, even if they were orbiting a star. The gas planet idea is
interesting, but I think there are extreme stabilty problems even if you
work out the zeroth order equilibrium conditions. It sure makes you
appreciate the earth!

> The math involved is complicated, involving elliptic integrals, but was
> basically solved by Laplace in 1787, in a paper showing that the rings of
> Saturn could not be solid.  For details see chapter 12 of Sir Horace
> Lamb's classic HYDRODYNAMICS.  First published in 1879, the sixth edition
> is still in print and, more amazingly, is still in use as a textbook.

Do these sources really discuss gravitationally self-bound gas toruses ?
Actually, the Saturn Ring argument ( that the stress would break it )
appears in a different form as yet another objection to the Smoke Ring.
The differential winds that play such a big part in the story would
dissipate the orbital energy of the Smoke Ring causing it to collapse
towards Voy ( its star. )

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 14:46:13 GMT
From: ad5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Smiley)
Subject: Re: A Larry Niven list.....

crusader@bsu-cs.UUCP (Erick L. King) writes:
>If anyone out there has a complete one I would be more than ecstatic to
>see it.  I've been a Niven fan since I started reading SF and I would like
>to make sure that I have all of his works.
	
   If you have Niven's short story collection _Tales of Known Space, The
Universe According to Larry Niven_ you can get a list of all of Niven's
works, novels etc. up to a point...after that I think, The Ringworld
Engineers, The Warlock Era short stories, The Smoke Ring stuff, and all of
his collaborations with Pournelle, Barnes, and Gerrold.  There is even a
mention of _Down in Flames_ in 'Tales'...I have everything of Niven's
excluding _The Shape of Space_ which to my knowledge has all of the stories
in it published in other collections...I guess I'll have to post a list, so
everybody on the net can Bicker about it..:-)

Colin Smiley
ARPA: ad5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
BITNET: DEKKARD@PURCCVM
UUCP: mentor.cc.purdue.edu!ad5

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 12:45:03 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Kurtz, Zimmer-Bradley

tegarvin@uokmax.UUCP (Patrick Garvin) writes:
>Excuse me, but what are Slans?

   Slan, by A E Van Vogt

Slans are a mutant evolved from Homo Sapiens who have various psychic
powers as well as distinguishing physical characteristics.  They get
persecuted by the normals.

The key point about the novel, though, and the reason it's germane to the
discussion, is that it is written from the viewpoint of the Slans, ie we
(the normals) are the Other, the Bad Guys (except for a few enlightened
Slan-loving Good Guys).  The supposed metaphor is that SF fans are a
superior, persecuted minority in a world inhabited by "mundanes".

In my opinion, it's a very good novel, and a rotten metaphor.  But an
author is not always responsible for the excesses of his readers.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 22:47:47 GMT
From: DOHC@tuccvm.bitnet (Bob Roberds)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

>>It seems like everytime a writer expands a shorter work to a novel, it's
>>a definite loss.
>
>>Any more examples?  Or counter examples? Or just plain disagreement?

Hey what about Larry Niven's "Rammer" expanding to _A World Out Of Time_,
or Joe Haldeman's "Hero" expanding to _The Forever War_, or Fredrik Pohl's
"The Gold At the Starbow's End" expanding to _Starburst_?  These are
examples of short stories that grew into novels with no harm whatsoever.

Bob Roberds
DOHC@TUCCVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 18:36:00 GMT
From: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu (Steve Greenland)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

DOHC@TUCCVM.BITNET (Bob Roberds) writes:
>Hey what about Larry Niven's "Rammer" expanding to _A World Out Of Time_,
>or Joe Haldeman's "Hero" expanding to _The Forever War_, or Fredrik Pohl's
>"The Gold At the Starbow's End" expanding to _Starburst_?  These are
>examples of short stories that grew into novels with no harm whatsoever.

  1. Rammer: _A World Out of Time_: You're right about this one, but Rammer
     didn't have much impact to begin with.  "A World Out of Time" was a 
     better book.
     
  2. "Hero": _The Forever War_: TFW was a great book, but Hero had a much
     bigger effect on me. It may be because I read "Hero" first.

  3. "TGASE": _Starburst_: Haven't read _Starburst_.

So I guess maybe I went a little overboard, since a few others have pointed
out short->long conversions that are improvements.  The other factor is
that I think a good short story can have a tremendous impact on the reader
over a very short period of time, while a novel tends to spread it out
more, with very few exceptions.  It's hard dilute an idea story.  In
Rammer, for instance, I was interested in reading more about Corbett, but I
wasn't really emotionally involved with him.

steveg
ARPA: steveg@squid.ucsb.edu or steveg@hub.ucsb.edu
UUCP: ....!ucbvax!hub!squid!steveg

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 27 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 282

Today's Topics:

			  Films - Aliens (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 12:55:44 GMT
From: cl@datalogic.co.uk (Charles Lambert)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
>I was under the impression that the only "aliens" that the marines (or
>anyone) had encountered was alien animal life.  Note that the marines
>refered to this as a "bug hunt".

As I recall the dialogue, they asked their commander if it was a "bug hunt"
OR [something else I've forgotten], suggesting that they had encountered or
were at least expecting to encounter higher level aliens.

>Sorry, I am going to have to side with most people here and say that the
>Space Jockey is definetely a different alien being.

A while ago, I saw one of these "The Making of..." books about "Alien",
which included excerpts from the original story board and the author's
notes (what was his name; a seriously disturbed artist).  The Space Jockey
was a different species; as I recall, when the crew of the Nostromo
discovered its remains, its chest was erupted as if by the exit of an
Alien.  Also, the message being transmitted was described as a "warning".

The Space Jockey belonged to a race that produced semi-organic artifacts,
hence the weirdly organic appearance of the ship and the fact that the
Jockey appeared to be intimately connected with the equipment around it.

Charlie

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 01:58:34 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Nostromo?  Sulaco?

The following is TOTALLY from memory.  The words are probably scrambled
around, but you'll get the idea.

lsmith@apollo.COM (Larry Smith) says:
> Where do starship names come from?  Does anyone know the origin of
> Nostromo and Sulaco?  Perhaps some mythological reference I don't know
> of?

I remember reading a comment on the name Nostromo.  The author said that he
combined two root words, one from Latin and one from ancient Greek.  (the
words were something like "Nestros" and "Omoneus" but I don't know for
shure) One was a possessive, refering usually to relatives or family, which
translates roughly as "our." (I believe this was the Nestros) The other was
a nominative (e.g. adjective and/or noun equivalent) refering to recent
carrion, translating "raw meat."

The author said that this was an intellectual joke for a select audience,
and was also an extremely obscure piece of foreshadowing.  It was meant to
represent the fact that the Company knew about the alien, and that the
beacon was a warning which "mother" was programmed to treat as "unknown,
probably a distress signal."  If the warning was false, then the crew would
at best get a small percentage of any possible profit, but if the warning
were true then the company would have an acceptable group of scape-goats if
any of them even survived.  Any of the outcomes represented an "acceptable
payment."

On a few other points:
   1)  I loved the portrayal of the cat in the book!

   2) The book really did a lot with (and explained) the "In Space No One
Can Hear You Scream" statement used in all the original promos.

   3) The whole psyche of the Alien, and its actions and motivations, were
detailed in the book Alien.  The "stuff" in the movie Aliens completely
went against this portrayal.  The book is better than the movie for
explanations and does well with the suspense.  If you haven't, READ THE
BOOK!  (my humble recomendation)

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 19:26:40 GMT
From: david@mirror.tmc.com (David Chesler)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) writes:
>This raises a few questions.  First, if the aliens are a naturally evolved
>race, what much the creatures they prey on be like?  Imagine something
>nasty enough to share a world with these things...
>
>Or, as I and a few others have suggested in the past, these things are a
>biological Doomsday weapon...

  OK, I've held back on this long enough.  There is a creature right here
on Earth that reproduces just like the Aliens.  (No, I'm not talking about
Alien III).  Stephen Jay Gould tells us about a small wasp which stings its
prey, usually a beetle, not enough to kill it, but enough to paralyze it.
The wasp then lays its eggs inside the beetle, whose natural defenses keep
it from rotting until the eggs hatch and the larvae eat the beetle from the
inside.  (Well, their little thoraces don't explode, but it's the same
idea.)
  Also, viruses work the same way, but they don't have macro-structure.

  Going on this line, the Aliens generally shared characteristics of Earth
insects, such as exoskeletons (nature of joints, shedding.)  An exoskeleton
model will work for a much smaller maximum size, in any given gravity, then
an endoskeleton.  So this model would allow for the hosts, as someone else
suggested, to be large herbivores, although I'm happy with large beetles.
This planet with less gravity would have a less dense atmosphere, which
could explain why the Aliens can survive in a vacuum.

  BTW, on the theory that the first Queen emits a scent inhibiting other
Queen formation: "In Space nobody can smell you smell."

David Chesler
Mirror Systems	
Cambridge, MA
(617) 661-0777, x170
david@prism.TMC.COM
{mit-eddie, pyramid, harvard!wjh12, cca, datacube}!mirror!david

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 21:26:02 GMT
From: dalex@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Dave Alexander)
Subject: Re: Nostromo?  Sulaco?

rwhite@nusdhub.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes:
>lsmith@apollo.COM (Larry Smith) says:
>> On a slightly different "Alien" vs "Aliens" track, I'd like to pose this
>> question: Where'd they get the names for those starships?  Nostromo?

Both names, "Nostromo" and "Sulaco," come from the same source.  The source
for both is a novel by Joseph Conrad, published in 1904, called "Nostromo."

The novel takes its name from the name of one of the major characters, an
Italian man who is known simply as Nostromo.

"Sulaco" is the name of a mythical town in the mythical South American
country of Costaguana.  The book's events are centered on this town of
Sulaco and its fabulously rich silver mine.

> I remember reading a comment on the name Nostromo.  The author said that
> he combined two root words, one from Latin and one from ancient Greek.
> (the words were something like "Nestros" and "Omoneus" but I don't know
> for shure) One was a possessive, refering usually to relatives or family,
> which translates roughly as "our." (I beleive this was the Nestros) The
> other was a nominative (e.g. adjective and/or noun equivalent) refering to
> recent carrion, translating "raw meat."

Any explanation involving an independent derivation from Greek or Latin
roots is dubious because "Nostromo" is not an obscure book.  It is hard to
understand how any person literate enough to be able to cook up the word
from the roots would not be familiar with at least the title of Conrad's
book.

Actually, the name is derived from the Italian "nostro uomo" and it means
"our man."  I believe that is where he got the name in the book.

Harris Tweed

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 21:05:54 GMT
From: creare!inb@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (Ian Brown)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

davek@infmx.UUCP (David Kosenko) writes:
>While they may have been engineered, I tend to doubt it.  While they are
>destructive enough, they are too tough to "clean up".  A more ideal
>biological weapon would be one that does a lot of damage, then dies,
>rather than hibernate until more victims come along.  Dave

On the other hand, it could be a biological weapon that got out of hand
(how many "ideal" weapons have been built by mankind?  None of the weapons
I can think of is really "ideal", accept for eliminating people).

The Berserker series by Saberhagen illustrates an ultimate weapon that
performs a function far beyond its (probable) intended one: it was probably
intended to eliminate a single enemy, instead it attempts to eliminate all
possible enemies ("life.")

Ian Brown
...!dartvax!creare!inb

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 18:35:01 GMT
From: DOHC@tuccvm.bitnet (Bob Roberds)
Subject: The Bees Knees (was Re: Intelligence of _ALIENS_)

>There are some interesting parallels in the insect world right here on
>earth. I remember an article states if the queen bee dies, another work
>bee (ordinary type) would develop features of the Queen bee (e.g. lay
>eggs, regulate the nest, etc) until a *REAL* queen bee is born.

Really?  I always thought the hive went queenless until the new queen (or
queens -this results in a duel to the death) comes out of metamorphosis.
When the workers no longer sense the old queenster's heady pheromones, they
single out an ordinary larva, build it a rootin-tootin cell, and start
feeding it "royal jelly".  Some time later a new queen pops out.  On
occasion they pick a couple of princesses, just to be on the safe side, and
the first queen out saunters over to the tardy pupa and stings her to
death.  This isn't at all sportsmanlike.  Should they both emerge at the
same time, the result is a mortal combat that would do quite well on the
Gorgeous Ladies Of Wrestling.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 17:52:00 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

david@mirror.TMC.COM (David Chesler) writes:
>This planet with less gravity would have a less dense atmosphere, which
>could explain why the Aliens can survive in a vacuum.

Gravity is dependent on both the total mass and the specific gravity of the
planet.  So you could have a large, low density world with gravity less
than ours, but with a deeper, thicker atmosphere.  There, you'd find lots
more things flying, because it would be such an easy trick, for instance.
Jupiter and Saturn both mass a *lot* more than the earth, but the surface
(a neat trick with maybe no solid suface...)  gravities are around 2.6 and
1.8.  Roughly.  Very roughly.  But both have very deep atmospheres.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 18:06:58 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Aliens

I'll try to make this brief. At any rate the main thrust of my intial
article is not that the Aliens could not be sentient, just that there is a
fair amount of evidence that says they are not.  They are intelligent, just
not to the point of sentience.  I should also point out that I personally
believe that a certain level of intelligence implies sentience.  It is my
point that the hive mentality took them in one direction (i.e. away from
sentience) while our social mentality took us toward sentience.  There are
certain evolutionary disadvantages to sentience such as the inability to
provide much in the way of instinct.  The aliens appear to rely a good deal
on instinct i.e. they patrol the Colony every night even after it is pretty
certain they have all the colonists, they seem to be able to build without
being taught, etc..

>>First of all they never use tools.
>   Ahh, the tool-handler argument.  Discussions of sentience always seem
>to devolve down to tools.  Let's drop our prejudice in favor of
>tool-handlers with opposable thumbs for a moment, and examine the aliens.
>One can easily see that their ability to extrude a resinous substance from
>within their bodies get's them past the need for construction tools.  They
>seemed to do a wonderful job of xeno-forming the terra-forming station.
>This same substance serves very nicely as a replacement for handcuffs,
>chains, and other forms of restraint.

True, but it also is an argument against sentience.  The evolution of that
ability probably means that the need for the smarts to actually build
things never arose i.e. termites have such abilty to make up for the lack
of the intelligence needed to understand construction techniques.  Also
that abilty does not negate the convenience of tools such as nets and traps
which would aid a sentient creature in capturing live prey.

>>If they were of equal inteligence (or even close) to man they would have
>>been carrying guns (captured from the colonists) by the time the Marines
>>arrive.
>   Why?  They seem to be very well endowed in the natural weapons
>department...the hive mentality may play a part in their tool-lessness.
>If an alien regards itself not as an individual being, with a
>life-preservation drive, but rather as just one cell in a conglomerate
>being, the drive becomes one of protecting the hive, not the individual's
>existence...

Again your arguments here point to non-sentience.  A sentient being has an
implied sense of being.  If the aliens were inteligent there would be a
point where they would decide survival of hive was best served by
abandoning it.  The aliens fighting abilities are all well and good, but
none has range.  The use of ranged weapons of the power of the colonists,
would have made sentient beings aware that the hive was not protectable
without them.

>   That's the other reason they don't need weapons: they don't want to
>kill their prey, they want to capture them for use as hosts.  Once again,
>preservation of the hive, at all costs.

But what about nets and traps?  There are other things besides weapons that
that would aid in the capture of victims.  The fact that they don't use
them again implies to me that they are not sentient.  There is the argument
of not being able to figure out how to use the colonist's tools and
weapons.  However, having live colonists at their disposal, they (if they
were inteligent enough) could have insisted on lessons.  The fact that they
seemed to immediately use each colonist for an egg again leans away from
inteligence.

>>they would at least be wearing some kind of trophys.
>   Just because St.  George and King Arthur liked to keep dragons' ears
>doesn't mean that all races need to indulge in mutilation of the dead.
>Likewise, the aliens seem to have no need for physical adornment (like
>medals), which would be another natural consequence of a hive
>organization.

I didn't mean trophies in the sense of pieces of their enemy, but in the
broader sense of decorations take from the colonists.  Things like weapons,
tools, jewelry, and other things that stuck their fancies used as
decorations.  Their not having this stuff may not be strict evidence for
their not being sentient, but their having it would be evidence of
sentience.

>   How about observing Ripley's implied threat to torch the eggs, and
>ordering the Warriors to stand down?

You're right I forgot about this scene when I wrote my last article.
However, it only implies intelligence of about the level of a canine.

>>I am assuming here that the queen probably was around for awhile hiding
>>in the atmosphere plant and learned by observing what the humans did.
>   Yes, but learning by observation is not the same thing as being taught.
>The one implies other attributes of sentience, like curiousity, whereas
>the other implies the ability to learn by rote, with help from a teacher

I agree it shows intelligence, but it does not show sentience.  For
example, most dogs learn what a door is used for by observation not by
being taught.  Psychological experiments have shown that even rats possess
this ability.

>>The only real intelligent thing the first alien does is hide on the
>>shuttle.
>   Sounds like species preservation to me.  As the only live member of the
>hive, the alien in Alien (singular) had one job, and one only: to cause
>other eggs to hatch or be laid.  If we accept the argument that that alien
>was a budding Queen, then hiding on the shuttle is a very smart thing to
>do:

The counter arguments to this are:
   Even a real intelligent creature would have had trouble given the
   situation of figuring out what was going on and where to go (unless they
   were familiar with that level of technology i.e. put a primative human
   in the same situation, but if this is the case the second aliens would
   have been using the colonists tools and weapons by the time the marines
   arrive).

   It was not possible to be sure from Ripley's actions that she was
   actually headed to the shuttle at that time.  She could have been trying
   to get something else to put on the shuttle.

   Last even if it had figured out what was happening, its ability to have
   gone to the right place (not being able to read) is pretty slim.

So I still think that the aliens presence on the shuttle was chance i.e.
the hope that Ripley would return without out knowing the importance of her
return.  I don't think it was motivated by the knowledge that the ship was
in danger, but rather by a desire to capture or kill Ripley.

>   Sounds  almost  like  the  wonderful  hairless  apes,  modulo  the
> parasite part.  And there are those who would say it's an exact match.

Right, up to a point.  That point is the choice between a hive mentality
and sentenience.  The motivation evolutionarily was probably the difference
between being them being parasitic and us being omnivorous.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 27 Sep 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 283

Today's Topics:

			 Books -  Zelazny (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 88 00:42:48 GMT
From: KXK112@psuvm.bitnet (Karen Kessler)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

kwatts%tahquitz@Sun.COM (Kevin L. Watts) says:
>KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) writes:
>> I think you would run into a bit of difficulty there.  It is *very*
>> hard to walk shadow anywhere near the primal pattern and, if you recall
>> the trumps won't work there either.
>
>In one of the books it is revealed that Brand had been on the primal
>pattern (he is like a human(pardon the expresion) Trump) and contacts
>merlin via Trump, Stabs him and lets the Blood of Amber flow on to the
>Primal pattern causing damage to Dworkins mind. 

Brand contacted a *person* (Martin, by the way, not Merlin) who was already
on the pattern.  He did not trump into the middle of it.  I'm not sure if
Brand actually 'came through'.  It seemed to me that he stabbed Martin from
whatever dark corner of shadow he was in and that the stabbing broke
contact.  (Or Martin did when he was hit.)  I think Brand would have
finished the job if he had actually come through.

Dworkin's mind was damaged before blood was spilled on the pattern
(although that certainly didn't help matters any).  He was originally sent
to that little hidey-hole by the primal pattern by Oberon because he was
coming unhinged.  That sets the time before Oberon's disappearance and
before the black road.

I wonder if a trump of a pattern would have to include the pattern in
itself?  Then you'd end up 'walking' it whenever you used that trump
anyway.  (just a bit of mind bending on my part)

Karen

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 88 16:28:28 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) writes: 
>Someone said that you have to know where you go for the pattern to
>transport you. Given this how do you explain the bit in Sign of Chaos,
>where the latest Amberite goes out on her own via Pattern by letting the
>pattern choose the destination

(Version 1) Simple: The someones who say things like "you have to know,
etc." don't know all there is to know about the pattern.  This has been
shown again and again.

(Version 2) Simple: What the someone meant was that to get to place X you
have to know that place X.  (Or at least what it looks like).  If you just
want "someplace", this may not apply.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 88 19:56:57 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: More About Corwin's Universe (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET says:
> I disagree that Corwin's pattern is simply another view of Dworkin's.
> Comments made in the first Amber series support the notion that one
> person's pattern would create shadows with a different "flavor" than that
> of another person.  Specifically, I seem to recall Corwin being none too
> keen to live in a world where Brand had created the pattern, since the
> shadows would all mirror his madness....

True and False.  I never claimed that "Corwin's pattern is simply another
view of Dworkin's" I did claim that "Corwin's pattern _is_ simply another
view of *The primal pattern in the Jewel of Judgment*" Refering to the
Blood Pattern of Dworkin as the "primal pattern" is nonsense, since the
original, three-dimensional pattern lies within the jewl of judgment, which
Dworkin used to draw his blood pattern, and which Corwin also used.

We have been told that "The universe can only hold one pattern" by Dworkin;
yet there are now four-to-five (depending on the phases of the moon in
Amber) immages of this "one pattern" and considering that the pattern in
Rebma is _backwards_ and therefore constitutes a radical departure from the
"original" blood pattern this "one pattern" must be the one in the Jewel.
Since it is in the same _form_ as Dworkin's Blood Pattern it does ont
impart more or different information about The Pattern in the Jewel.

Corwin's Blood Pattern, however, was drawn with a different perspective of
the same event (the pattern within the jewel) so it should impart a
different feel to the structure of order.  Since you need two divergent
views of something to understand it's structure, and similarly to judge any
physical/spatial relation you need two knowns from which to extrapolate a
relation (see trig/surveying/etc.), it would stand to reason that
possessing more than one view of the pattern allows greater manipulation of
time-space.

We know that Temproal H-mobius loops are possible within the Amber
framework because of the Hand of Oberon (e.g. it's pattern of arrival and
departure).  We also know that Dworkin's Blood Pattern still had
consistency, even when partailly obscured by the blood of Amber, because
Corwin's sword could lead him through the correct movements even though
they were no longer dictated by Blood.  We know Dworkin was _always_
considered "mad" (even before the dammage to his Blood Pattern).  We know
that making a Blood Pattern permenantly binds the mind which inscribed it
to the Jewel, and damage to the pattern is damage to the mind.  We know
that the Courts of Chaos existed before Dworkin's Blood Pattern, and that
the Courts do *NOT* exist in chaos itself (remember the abyss is true death
even for those of the courts) but this discrepancy/caveat can be moderated
by the knowledge that the Jewel, the Unicorn, and the Island existed for
Dworkin to find in the first place; suggesting that there was order before
Dworkin's Blood Pattern.

The purpose of the pattern (in my humble opinion ;-) is to give a specific
view of "order" as inacted by the Jewel.  If the only such "view" were
drawn from Brand's diseased mind, then the view would be diseased.  There
would be no more or less components, nor would they (individually) be
substantially altered, but the connections and cause-and-effect relations
would be twisted.  Both views would be accurate, but one would be a lot
more difficult to deal with.

As evidence I give a paraphrase of one of Dworkin's speeches to Corwin, as
given from the cave adjacent to the Blood Pattern: (thinking that Corwin is
Oberon in disguise) I thought it would be enough, that walking the pattern
would make them feel the universe inside them.  A small fraction of the
pounding of chaos struggling inside your head, with only your will to draw
it together and give it shape.

Granted this is a horible paraphrase (as I don't have the book available to
me) but it gave me the distinct impression that all the elements were
already present and then Dworkin, "the mad artist," simply drew lines (e.g.
made connections obvious) between the elements.
 
> Conjecture II:
> It may be instructive (boy, do I sound like a math book) to wait for the
> next book.  The whole "living trump" business has apparently been fairly
> well reasoned out by Roger Z, and Julia presents some interesting
> problems herself.

I think that the whole living trump business is(will be?) quite obvious.
You loose part of your humanity/reason to gain the instincts to
automatically draw your own connections between places and objects.  Sort
of an animal awareness of the true nature of things.  I also think that
Corwin, by walking his own pattern (and probably the "new and improved"
pattern in Amber) after both stabilized, gained an intelligent, as opposed
to instinctive, perspective of the same thing.  I think that Merlin will
gain similar insight and use it to defeat his rival/brother.  Corwin seems
to be moving freely through it all, guiding merlin is subtle ways (e.g. the
whole "dads room" bit.)  but is now mostly above the whole family mess
because he possesses a direct link to the Jewel, and two
pattern-connections to everything.

I think Corwin, and not Ghostweel, was responsible for the Chaos storm
funnel cloud.

Besides, if none of that is true, how is Merlin going to keep check on
Ghostwheel?  Defeat the new living trump by a clever new means, instead of
the surprise attack used last time (Roger Z. tends not to repeat himself.)
against Brand?

OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE NOT.....?      ;-)

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 18:43:27 GMT
From: survey@e.ms.uky.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) writes:
>kwatts%tahquitz@Sun.COM (Kevin L. Watts) says:
>>KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) writes:
>>> I think you would run into a bit of difficulty there.  It is *very*
>>> hard to walk shadow anywhere near the primal pattern and, if you recall
>>> the trumps won't work there either.
>>  
>>In one of the books it is revealed that Brand had been on the primal
>>pattern attern (he is like a human(pardon the expresion) Trump) and
>>contacts merlin via a Trump, Stabs him and lets the Blood of Amber flow
>>on to the Primal pattern, ern causing damage to Dworkins mind. So there!
>
>Brand did contact a person (Martin, by the way, not Merlin) when he was
>already on the pattern.  He did not trump into the middle of it.  Brand
>didn't actually bring Martin through at that time -- Martin blocked him --
>but I'm sure he would have been able to.  I'm going to assume that Brand
>was a special case.  A little mental instability seems to do wonders for
>your magical abilities.  When Corwin and co. first encountered the primal
>pattern their trumps were "dead".

   ~sigh~ I thought that it was made apparent that the reason their trumps
wouldn't work was because Oberon was blocking them.  He had both reason and
the power to do so.  He also noted the "bug" on the trumps.  Martin did
*not* block Brand (the first time), and Brand was able to make the
connection solid enough that he was able to stab Martin.

>Dworkin's mind was damaged before blood was spilled on the pattern
>(although that certainly didn't help matters any).  He was originally sent
>to that little hidey-hole by the primal pattern by Oberon because he was
>coming unhinged.  That sets the time before Oberon's disappearance and
>before the black road.

   Dworkin's comments make it obvious that the madness in him *was* caused
by the damage to the pattern.  Remember time differential.  Also note that
this predates the Black Road because a crucial element in it was Corwin's
curse.  Appropriately enough, his madness and imprisonment would have to
come before Oberon's disappearance and the Black Road.
 
>I wonder if a trump of a pattern would have to include the pattern in
>itself?  Then you'd end up 'walking' it whenever you used that trump
>anyway.  (just a bit of mind bending on my part)

   All of the trumps contain the pattern.  You just have to look closely to
see it.  I always wondered what properties Bleys' sword had.  Like
Greyswandir, it had a portion of the pattern on it.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 88 17:17:43 GMT
From: jiml@cadnetix.com (Jim Lewczyk)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) writes:
>Dworkin's mind was damaged before blood was spilled on the pattern
>(although that certainly didn't help matters any).  He was originally sent
>to that little hidey-hole by the primal pattern by Oberon because he was
>coming unhinged.  That sets the time before Oberon's disappearance and
>before the black road.  ...  

As I recall (I read it last week), Dworkin was sent to the little hidey-
hole because he had discovered a way to destroy the primal pattern, and
Oberon feared he would use it.  Apparently he wasn't satisfied with the
universe he had created and wanted to destroy it, or have Oberon destroy
it, and start over.  He indeed didn't go 'unbalanced' until Brand spilled
blood (of up to a third generation member of the family, which Martin just
qualified for) on the primal pattern.  Remember when Corwin goes to his
hidey-hole?  The first thing Dworkin says to him is along the lines of
"Oberon, is it time?"  Time for what?  Time to destroy things and start
over!

The Trumps Do work near the patterns, as Benedict transported himself to
the pattern in the city in the sky (I can't recall the name) in time to
catch Brand who trumped himself there (although, as has been pointed out,
Brand was capable of some supranormal activity regarding trumps.)  And
didn't the Trumps, which were dead when Corwin first was led to the primal
pattern, come back to life after the horse was destroyed?

James Lewczyk
Cadnetix Corp.
Internet: jlew@cadnetix.com
UUCP: cadnetix!jlew
{uunet,boulder,nbires}!cadnetix!jlew

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 01:50:23 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Zelazny reissue and Amber

I must have had Heinlein on the brain when I originally posted it.  And I
think that the way he maps out history and what he does with that plot is
fantastic.

Now, I bought Sign of Chaos in hardback about 11 months ago.  This means
that the 4th should be out in hardback

ANY WEEK NOW!!!!!

Has anyone heard anything, a little after Sign came out I heard a rumor
that he was trying to get more money out of the publishing company, but
they didn't want to give it to him....

ARPA: Philip.Verdieck@andrew.cmu.edu
      PV04+@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: r746pv04@CMCCVB
UUCP: ...!{harvard,ucbvax}!andrew.cmu.edu!pv04

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 18:20:35 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet (Christopher Tate)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

russ@uokmax.UUCP (Random J Nightfall) says:

>Spoilers for Sign of Chaos
>....by ol' whatserface in Sign of Chaos having the Pattern take her
>wherever is the right place to go.  Obviously, she did NOT have it
>visualised .. she had no idea where she was going, and she may not have
>known where she was when she arrived (hard to say, yet).
>
>Obviously, that restriction does not truly apply, despite what Merle
>thought.

Her name is Coral, by the way.

As I recall, her words to Merlin about what she was doing were to the
effect that she would "let the Pattern send her wherever it wanted."  Vague
hints that the Pattern may be somewhat sentient, like most of the universe
seems to be...

Christopher Tate
cxt105@psuvm.psu.edu
...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105
cxt105@psuvm.bitnet            

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 18:09:32 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet (Christopher Tate)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) says:
>Dworkin's comments make it obvious that the madness in him *was* caused by
>the damage to the pattern.  Remember time differential.  Also note that
>this predates the Black Road because a crucial element in it was Corwin's
>curse.  Appropriately enough, his madness and imprisonment would have to
>come before Oberon's disappearance and the Black Road.

_Nine Princes in Amber_ was written originally as a stand-alone book; it
was some time before Zelazny got around to making it a series.
Consequently, it has a different feel than the other books.  Later in the
series (after the second book) Corwin's curse is blamed less and less for
the black road; it is discussed as the direct result of Brand's act of
spilling royal blood on the primal pattern.  I therefore disagree that a
crucial element in the road's creation was Corwin's curse; Zelazny seems to
replace that explanation with the business about Brand.

Also, Dworkin had been imprisoned for quite some time (and that's AMBER
time!)  before he appeared, insane, in Corwin's cell under Amber.  He was
imprisoned by Oberon BECAUSE of his madness. Thus, his insanity could not
be an effect of Brand's damaging the Pattern, since Oberon had been missing
for decades before the power struggle became acute.

Christopher Tate
Bitnet: cxt105@psuvm
Uucp: ...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105
Internet: cxt105@psuvm.psu.edu       

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 28 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 284

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Lem (2 msgs) &
                                  Recommendations (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 03:22:45 GMT
From: lew@ihlpa.att.com (Lew Mammel, Jr.)
Subject: Re: Lemmings

weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes:
>lew@ihlpa (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes:
>>FIASCO was thought provoking and sophisticated in many ways, but there is
>>a fifties style to Lem's technology and sociology that you have to adapt
>>to if you want to enjoy his books.
> 
> Really?  The way he handled the grasers and so on struck me as the
> literary equivalent of the docking to the Danube waltz scene from 2001.
> I have never read science fictional technology portrayed so perfectly
> before.

Here is the first paragraph of FIASCO:

   "Nice landing."

   The man who said this was no longer looking at the pilot in the
   spacesuit with the helmet under his arm. In the circular control room -
   horshoe console in the middle - he went to the wall of glass and looked
   out at the ship, a large even though distant cylinder, charred around
   its jets. A blackish fluid still spilled from the jets onto the
   concrete. The second controller, big in the shoulders, a beret tight on
   his bald skull, put the tapes on rewind and, like an unblinking bird,
   regarded the newcomer out of the corner of his eye. He wore headphones,
   and in front of him was a bank of flickering monitors.

Here we have a nice neat package of fifties science fiction technology.
Tapes! charred jets! See what I mean? To me this is real rocket jockey
stuff all the way. TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT is even more fifties. Pirx
carries his suitcase onto a rocket after hiking up to the rocket field in
TERMINUS (which is one of my favorites.)

> What do you mean by a fifties sociology?  That it wasn't cyberpunk?

I didn't even know what cyberpunk was until a couple of months ago.  ( That
is, until after reading FIASCO and other Lem works. ) My point of reference
is my youthful reading in the early sixties.  By fifties sociology I mean
that the solar system is populated with autonomous hot-shots. From page 7:

   "... I saw him, on the patsat, descending into the Depression."

   "The patsat?" asked the pilot. He was pale. Sweat beaded on
   his brow, but he waited for the explanation.

   "Our patrol satellite. It passes overhead every eight hours.
   It gave me a clear picture. Pirx went down and disappeared."

   "COMMANDER Pirx?" asked the pilot, his face changing.

   "Yes. You know him?"

   "Know him!" cried the pilot. "I served under him as an intern.  He
   signed my diploma.... Pirx? For so many years he managed to extricate
   himself from the worst -"

> Anyway, even if it is a "fifties-style", I simply didn't notice.  The
> book was so rich on both philosophical and suspense levels that I was
> just blow away.

The latter part of the book sheds the as-perceived-by-me fifties style
pretty much. Maybe because of the setting change to interstellar space.
Also, the description of Quinta and the Quintans certainly transcends any
such categorization. It is the only description of aliens I ever read that
really made me feel in the presence of something really alien. ( Bugs are
pretty familar, after all. ) It made me feel ... uneasy.

Lew Mammel, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 08:01:39 GMT
From: weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Lemmings

Very mild (dust jacket level) spoilers concerning S Lem FIASCO.

lew@ihlpa (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes:
>[first two paragraphs omitted]
>Here we have a nice neat package of fifties science fiction technology.
>Tapes! charred jets! See what I mean?

Oh.  I would never notice those level of details.  I would feel sorry for
someone who puts down FIASCO in disgust after the second paragraph.

>By fifties sociology I mean that the solar system is populated with
>autonomous hot-shots.

OK.  Maybe space jockies were popular in the fifties, and faded for the
longest time, but I don't see why that matters one way or another.  I mean,
maybe there will be hot doggers out there.  Seems plausible, and not a
particularly fiftiesh *sociological* assumption.  (As compared with
something that has the mom and dad and so on in their proper fifties roles.
Or pointing out that tapes are permanently out.)

>> Anyway, even if it is a "fifties-style", I simply didn't notice.  The
>> book was so rich on both philosophical and suspense levels that I was
>> just blow away.
>
>The latter part of the book sheds the as-perceived-by-me fifties style
>pretty much. Maybe because of the setting change to interstellar space.

Hmmm.  Maybe Lem deliberately wanted to jump up the reader's impression of
space computer/travel evolution.  I don't see much difference between tapes
=> DEUS and discs => DEUS.

And note that "latter part" is all but the first two chapters.

>Also, the description of Quinta and the Quintans certainly transcends any
>such categorization. It is the only description of aliens I ever read that
>really made me feel in the presence of something really alien. ( Bugs are
>pretty familar, after all. ) It made me feel ... uneasy.

Yes!  FIASCO is first-contact with a vengeance.  I think this is why I was
confused by your references to "fifties" style: Lem turned all the
classical conventions concerning first-contact, from H G Wells to Carl
Sagan, upside down and blew them away.  Very effective.  And very sobering
to boot.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 04:04:42 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Literary merit (was: Re: First One (sort of))

rick@ge1cbx.UUCP (NUB @ NUB.HUB) says:
>Does anyone care to name any other books which they think have REAL[tm]
>*Literary Merit*?

Well, I haven't read many novels lately, just short stories (recently
discovered that our local library has a complete collection of the Hugo &
Nebulae volumes). I think that several of these short stories have
"REAL[tm] *Literary Merit*":

Gene Wolfe, "The Death of Dr. Island"... a too-true(tm) story, in that
   literary(tm) style.
Ursula LeGuin, "The Diary of the Rose" (gosh, notice how the tragedies
    stick in my mind?). Again, in that literary(tm) style, although
    the content is probably too unfasionable for it to have Real[TM]
    literary value.

Getting into rougher waters: The best of George R.R. Martin.
Unfortunately, his writing isn't cold and soul-less enough for the Literary
Mavens.... "Romanticism! Run! Hide! Emotions on the loose!".  However, it
does have the Relevance[tm] that the Literary Mafia requires. "A Song for
Lya" and "The Way of Cross and Dragon" come to mind immediately, and,
possibly, "And Seven Times Never Kill Man".

Harlan Ellison: The literary equivalent of a punch in the nose.  Probably
fails the "Style" test, therefore. But with stories like "Pretty Maggie
Moneyeyes", "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs", "Shattered Like a Glass
Goblin".... (alas, Ellison also has produced a lot of CRAP in his day,
although he'll never admit it).

Then there's the New Gang: Connie Willis and Lucius Shepard seem to be the
"most literary" of the recent stort story writers.

Shepard: "R&R" was a great novella, lousy as an introduction to a mediocre
novel (_Life during Wartime_ -- don't, it's an almost complete betrayal of
"R&R").  His recent stories seem to go too far in the "magic" direction...
magic is no longer magic if it's too explicit.
   Willis: "Fire Watch" -- great for all those who think history is
irrelevant and wonder why we're interested in dead people.

Note: THis isn't intended to be comprehensive (after all, it's just a few
names off the top of my head!). In particular, I'm sure I left out a half
dozen short stories by LeGuin ;-). If anybody else has a "Recommended" list
of this sort, and A METHOD OF AQUIRING THEM (I'm in Lafayette, Louisiana --
great Cajun food, not-so-great SF).....

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 16:28:26 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Literary merit

A while ago, someone asked...
>Does anyone care to name any other books which they think have
>REAL[tm] *Literary Merit*?

Here's a partial listing.

Anderson, Poul                      TAU ZERO (mostly for the characters)

Anthony, Piers (believe it or not): MACROSCOPE
                                    CHTHON (though this is sexist)
                                    OMNIVORE

Barth, John                         CHIMERA
                                    GILES GOAT-BOY

Bear, Greg                          EON
                                    BLOOD MUSIC

Benford, Gregory                    TIMESCAPE

Bishop, Michael                     AND STRANGE AT ECBATAN THE TREES
                                    TRANSFIGURATIONS

Blish, James                        "After Such Knowledge":
                                        DOCTOR MIRABILIS
                                        BLACK EASTER
                                        THE DAY AFTER JUDGEMENT
                                        A CASE OF CONSCIENCE

Borges, Jorge Luis                  LABYRINTHS
                                    THE BOOK OF IMAGINARY BEASTS

Brunner, John                       "USA":
                                        THE SHEEP LOOK UP
                                        STAND ON ZANZIBAR
                                        THE JAGGED ORBIT
                                      (some also include):
                                        THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER
                                    THE TRAVELLER IN BLACK

Calvino, Italo                      THE NON-EXISTENT KNIGHT & THE CLOVEN
                                        VISCOUNT
                                    IF ON A WINTER'S NIGHT A TRAVELER

Clarke, Arthur C.                   THE CITY AND THE STARS
                                    CHILDHOOD'S END     

Delany, Samuel R.                   "The Fall of the Towers":
                                        OUT OF THE DEAD CITY
                                        THE TOWERS OF TORON
                                        CAPTIVES OF THE FLAME
                                    EMPIRE STAR (though a bit precious)
                                    BABEL-17
                                    NOVA
                                    DHALGREN
                                    TRITON
                                    "Return to Neveryon":
                                        TALES FROM NEVERYON
                                        NEVERYONA
                                        FLIGHT FROM NEVERYON
                                        THE BRIDGE OF LOST DESIRE
                                    STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND

Dick, Philip K.                     EYE IN THE SKY
                                    THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE
                                    UBIK
                                    DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?
                                    THE THREE STIGMATA OF PALMER ELDRITCH
                                    FLOW MY TEARS, THE POLICEMAN SAID
                                    A SCANNER DARKLY
                                    VALIS
                                    THE DIVINE INVASION (weak but important)
                                    THE TRANSMIGRATION OF TIMOTHY ARCHER

Disch, Thomas M.                    THE GENOCIDES
                                    CAMP CONCENTRATION
                                    334
                                    ON WINGS OF SONG
                                    THE BRAVE LITTLE TOASTER (cute but good)
                                    THE BUSINESSMAN
                                    ESSENTIAL DISCH

Ellison, Harlan                     DEATHBIRD STORIES
                                    APPROACHING OBLIVION
                                    STRANGE WINE
                                    AN EDGE IN MY VOICE (essays)
                                    ESSENTIAL ELLISON

Effinger, George Alec               WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME

Gibson, William                     COUNT ZERO
                                    BURNING CHROME

Haldeman, Joe                       THE FOREVER WAR

Heinlein, Robert A.                 STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND
                                    THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS
                                    "THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST--"
                                    JOB
                                    TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET

Herbert, Frank                      DUNE
                                    THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT

LeGuin, Ursula K.                   THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS
                                    "Earthsea":
                                        A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA
                                        THE TOMBS OF ATUAN
                                        THE FARTHEST SHORE
                                    THE DISPOSSESSED
                                    ALWAYS COMING HOME
                                    BUFFALO GALS WON'T YOU COME OUT TONIGHT?

Lem, Stanislaw                      A PERFECT VACUUM
                                    THE CYBERIAD
                                    TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT
                                    MS FOUND IN A BATHTUB
                                    THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS

Miller, Frank (with Lynn Varley)     THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS
              (with Bill Sinkiewicz) ELEKTRA:  ASSASSIN
                                     DAREDEVIL:  BORN AGAIN

Moore, Alan (with Dave Gibbons)     WATCHMEN

Pohl, Frederik                      "The Heechee Trilogy":
                                        GATEWAY
                                        BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON
                                        HEECHEE RENDEZVOUS
                                        ANNALS OF THE HEECHEE
                                    MAN PLUS
        (with C.M. Kornbluth)       WOLFSBANE
                                    THE SPACE MERCHANTS
                                    GLADIATOR-AT-LAW

Pynchon, Thomas                     GRAVITY'S RAINBOW

Russ, Joanna                        THE FEMALE MAN
                                    ALYX (incl. PICNIC ON PARADISE)
                                    EXTRA(ORDINARY) PEOPLE
                                    THE ZANZIBAR CAT
                                    AND CHAOS DIED

Sim, Dave                           HIGH SOCIETY
         (with Gerhard)             CHURCH AND STATE

Spinrad, Norman                     THE MEN IN THE JUNGLE
                                    THE IRON DREAM
                                    BUG JACK BARRON

Sturgeon, Theodore                  MORE THAN HUMAN
                                    E PLURIBUS UNICORN
                                    STURGEON IS ALIVE AND WELL...
                                    THE COSMIC RAPE
                                    SOME OF YOUR BLOOD
                                    GODBODY
                                    NOT WITHOUT SORCERY

Tiptree, James                      STARSONGS OF AN OLD PRIMATE
                                    10,000 LIGHT-YEARS FROM EARTH
                                    (and any other short story collections;
                                     I can't recall all of them.)

Vonnegut, Kurt                      PLAYER PIANO
                                    THE SIRENS OF TITAN
                                    SLAUGHTERHOUSE-5
                                    GALAPAGOS

Wilhelm, Kate                       FAULT LINES
                                    WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG

Wolfe, Gene                         "The Book of the New Sun":
                                        THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER
                                        THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR
                                        THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR
                                        THE CASTLE OF THE AUTARCH
                                    FREE LIVE FREE
                                    THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS

Zelazny, Roger                      LORD OF LIGHT
                                    ISLE OF THE DEAD
                                    TODAY WE CHOOSE FACES
                                    CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS

...I could go on for a long time, but that'll do for a preliminary cut.
You can't go far wrong with any of the above.  Not all of them are pleasant
"reads," but they're all dynamite books.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 28 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 285

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Chalker & Eddison & Shepard &
                           The Star Trek Concordance (2 msgs) &
                           Stories into Novels (2 msgs) &
                           Book Request Answered

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 02:34:04 GMT
From: pcp2g@bessel.acc.virginia.edu (Philip C. Plait)
Subject: Re: SF Lovers Digest

>...are there any Jalk Chalker fans out there?

Any Chalker fans? A hex on Jack Chalker, I'm a Brazil nut!!

I wish I could take credit for that. I have it on a button I got at a con
'bout ten years ago. I just finished reading "And the Devil Will Drag You
Under" for the fifth or sixth time last week. Great book, even though it
would seem that there are some continuity problems in it, like times get
screwed up, places, etc. Still, his "Well of Souls" books are my favorite
series to date.

Phil Plait
UVa Dept. of Astronomy
PCP2G@Virginia
PCP2G@bessel.acc.virginia.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 22:00:24 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Archaic English...

barry@eos.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>If you want quality English a la King James in your fantasy, try Lord
>Dunsany. He writes that kind of prose as 'twere his native tongue.
>Eddison creaks; Dunsany flows.

HD Plunkett, Lord Dunsany, is indeed a fine Writer of the King's English,
but if you'd see the Language used not in the Manner of these Clerics and
their foppish Books but rather as it was meant to be used, in the high
Stile of a Bard telling a Tale of Bravery and high Pursuits, then let me
commend to your Attention the Works of the late E.R. Eddison.

Messire Eddison wrote but four Books in his Life.  The first of these, THE
WORM OUROBOROS, is a fine Tale in its own Right.  The single great Flaw in
its Presentation is a rather foolish Induction, in which a Man named
Lessingham is mystically transported to the Lands in which the Tale takes
place.  Lessingham is not a Participant in this Tale; he is merely an
Observer, and forgotten soon after the Induction.

Howsoever that may be, Lessingham is indeed a most important Character in
the other Books Eddison wrote.  These are, by name, MISTRESS OF MISTRESSES,
A FISH DINNER IN MEMISON, and THE MEZENTIAN GATE.  The three Books are
inextricably link'd but cannot be order'd, as the Time of their happening
is not simple and linewise.  The best Order in which to read them is a
matter of some Debate, but I would recommend the order in which I have
listed them, above.

You should be warned, however, that these later Books, though also fine and
rousing Tales, fall prey to the Clerics' Habit of philosophizing and
putting a Meaning to Things.  Those solely in search of fine Language and
high Adventure had best, perhaps, seek elsewhere for their Entertainment;
the works of the late messire Eddison may induce Thought and other
unpleasantries.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 14:00:14 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield (David Eppstein)
Subject: Lucius Shepard

elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
> Then there's the New Gang: Connie Willis and Lucius Shepard seem to be
> the "most literary" of the recent stort story writers.
>
> Shepard: "R&R" was a great novella, lousy as an introduction to a
> mediocre novel (_Life during Wartime_ -- don't, it's an almost complete
> betrayal of "R&R").  His recent stories seem to go too far in the "magic"
> direction... magic is no longer magic if it's too explicit.

Could someone please please explain to me why so many otherwise sane people
seem to actually like Lucius Shepard's writing?  My general reaction to
seeing his name on something is to throw up, run screaming from the room,
or at least skip wildly to the next piece in that issue of Asimov's.  All
the other Asimov's regulars (with possible exception of the good doctor
himself) are wonderful.  Shepard suxrox.  But he keeps winning awards,
getting published, using up valuable Asimov's page space, etc, and there
must be some reason.

Btw, I also tried reading his book Green Eyes, based on the strength of the
other New Ace Specials.  At least it's not his usual ugly-american-kills-
gooks-and-gets-his-just-desserts.  Instead its one of his bizarre-and-
morbid-parallel-universe stories and therefore not quite so horrible.  I
just couldn't manage any of the necessary suspension of disbelief.  And
then there's the special combo platter ugly-american-betrays-refugees-from-
bizarre-and-morbid-parallel-universe story (I forget the title, but the
b-a-m-p-u apparently has something important to do with Hitler's dead body;
maybe he's done more since, I don't know, I stopped reading Shepard some
time ago)...

David Eppstein
Columbia U. Computer Science
eppstein@garfield.cs.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 14:39:01 GMT
From: eric@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Eric Cotton)
Subject: Re: A Critique of Bjo Trimble's THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976).

klaes@25.691.enet (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283) writes:
>I feel this critique is important, as the CONCORDANCE is undoubtedly one
>of the landmark reference manuals in STAR TREK history - along with Franz
>Joseph's STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL (1975), Geoffrey Mandel's STAR FLEET
>MEDICAL REFERENCE MANUAL (1977), and several others - owned and referred
>to by most "serious" STAR TREK fans for information on the STAR TREK
>Universe; and unlike Joseph's TECH MANUAL, the CONCORDANCE is still
>available at relatively reasonable prices from merchandise dealers
>so that most fans can have access to it.

Joseph's TECH MANUAL is still readily available (and maybe still in print),
albeit in softcover (lacking the glossy plastic cover).  It was rereleased
for Start Trek's 20th anniversary.

>   On page 142, in the definition of Colt, Yeoman, an ENTERPRISE
>crewmember in the first STAR TREK pilot "The Cage" and later seen in
>edited format in "The Menagerie", there is this description of her
>behavior: "She was curious to wonder, later, just which female Pike would
>have chosen, but she never found out."  While this scene did exist in "The
>Cage", it did not make it into the edited scenes for "The Menagerie", and
>since "The Cage" was never televised and not reviewed in the CONCORDANCE,
>the reference is therefore wrong in regards to "The Menagerie", but it
>does exist in the pilot.
>[...]
>   On page 247, in the definition of Vina, a character in the first STAR
>TREK pilot "The Cage" and later seen in edited format in "The Menagerie",
>Bjo says that Vina was given an illusion of Captain Christopher Pike to
>keep her company on planet Talos 4.  While the film of this event does
>exist in both "The Cage" and "The Menagerie", it does not have the same
>intent in both episodes: In "The Cage" the above is true, while in the
>latter the scene was used to show Pike, now unfettered by his physical
>disabilities, walking away with Vina in the illusion of perfect health
>created by the Talosians, after having been brought to the planet by a
>sympathetic Spock.
>[...]

I don't see why either of the events in the previous two passages could not
have happened.  Perhaps the Talosians may have deemed them irrelevant and
thus not have transmitted the scenes to the Enterprise during Spock's
hearing.  Neither seem to contradict anything in The Menagerie.  After
Pike's first visit Vina was left with an illusion of Pike.  Then many years
later she got the real thing (tm).

>   I could not find the names of the actors who portrayed the following
>characters and were written in the Summaries cast lists as "Unknown": The
>M113 Monster (Salt Vampire) and Sturgeon from "The Man Trap"; [...]

The Salt Vampire was played by Jano Prohaska.  He also made the costume.
In addition, he built and played Yarnek (The Savage Curtain) and the Mugatu
(A Private Little War).

>   Excuses and Explanations -
>[...]
>   With the millions of planets in the Milky Way Galaxy known to the
>Federation, one can probably expect a few to end up being designated with
>the same name.  Such is the case with Taurus 2 on pages 235-236; "The
>GALILEO Seven" and "The Lorelei Signal" both center around planets with
>the same name.  Now Bjo could have simply accepted the idea that two
>planets could have the same name but be completely different worlds in
>time and space - as she did with the two planets named Arret (Terra
>spelled backwards) in "Return to Tomorrow" and "The Counter-Clock
>Incident", though granted the two worlds do exist in separate universes
>and are not similar - but no, instead she claims they are one and the same
>worlds, with the primitive creatures from The GALILEO Seven" occupying one
>area, and the advanced women in "The Lorelei Signal" occupying another
>area far apart.  Bjo backs this up with the fact that primitive and
>advanced human cultures both live on Earth at the same time.  This is
>true, but I do not think that this can apply to Taurus 2's case.  For one
>thing, the Taurus 2 from "GALILEO" appears dark green from space, while
>the Taurus 2 from "Lorelei" is bright orange-yellow in color.  Also,
>"GALILEO's" Taurus 2 exists in an area of space referred to in the episode
>as a quasar, which caused great interference with communications and the
>transporter (Astronomers know a lot more about quasars now than they did
>in 1967, and presently believe they are the cores of very and distant
>early galaxies; in any event, they are not what was presented in
>"GALILEO"); none of this occurred with the ENTERPRISE in "Lorelei".  I was
>also under the impression that Taurus 2 in "GALILEO" was covered in a
>thick fog and inhabited everywhere by the primitive giants; I saw no such
>conditions in "Lorelei", plus I also seriously doubt the primitives and
>the women would have existed side-by-side without one or the other being
>exterminated in the process.  I do understand Bjo's Earth cultures
>example, but Earth is not Taurus 2, no matter which planet.

While I don't really believe that the two cultures both existed on either
side of the same planet, it does seem curious that in The Lorelei Signal
the residents were all women while in The Galileo Seven the creatures all
appeared to be men...

Anyway, I found Larry's critique very enlightening.  Keep up the good work!

Eric Cotton
Commodore-Amiga
1200 Wilson Drive
West Chester, PA 19380
(215) 431-9100
{rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!eric

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 17:19:23 GMT
From: UR-LORD@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: A Critique of Bjo Trimble's THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976

This in reply to Larry Klaes excellent post on Bjo Trimble's STAR TREK
CONCORDANCE. The following message is from Bjo Trimble after I sent her a
copy of the USENET Post. The message is a BIXmail from her, where is a
moderator of the SF Conference. If Larry would like to reply he may do so
to me at the address: UR-LORD@cup.portal.com. I will forward it to Bjo.

[Begin included message]

I am only on BIX, so do not see any other BBS, so *THANK YOU* for this long
but informative message!  I really appreciate it. Please relay the
following message back:

First, I accept much of the blame for inaccuracies, but please keep in mind
that I had help: Ballantine assigned a "Star Trek expert" within their
offices to me - he's watched ST for 3 years!  And we were up against
typesetters, who seemed to have their own idea of how words were to be
spelled on any given page.  Nothing I said about the galleys seemed to make
any difference.

Second, please do not compare me with Allan Asherman's total rip-off of my
book.  He perpetuated mistakes in names, etc, because he simply re-wrote my
book and sold it at a cheaper price than I was willing to accept.
Pocketbooks thought his book would be as good as mine and went for it.

Third, and most important: I have been collecting corrections on the
Concordance since it came out the first time in the fan edition.  Those
corrections - if they are, indeed, true corrections and not
misunderstandings by the fans - are going into the computer and will show
up in the updated version of the CONCORDANCE.  I gladly accept all the
corrections and nitpickings that anyone sends me.  Please send as many as
you find!

We're moving by mid-October to Houston, but my Los Angeles PO Box will be
open a year.  Pass it on: PO Box 36789, LA CA 90036-0789.

Again, thanks for taking this time for me.  I'll download the message, to
use for future reference.  If I had USENET access, I'd tell the StarTrek
fans personally that I welcome this kind of thing.  (But I am only
'computer adequate' and don't know how to sign on, anyway.)

Tell some of those folks to browse over BIX way and learn a bit more...

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 16:30:42 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works

TO throw a little organization at this discussion, there seems to be two
basic types of "expansion."

In the first, such as the expansion of "Rammer" into A WORLD OUT OF TIME,
the original short work is simply incorporated into the structure of a
novel, often as the first chapter.

In the second, such as the expansion of "Ender's Game" into ENDER'S GAME,
the short work is actually re-written at novel length.

On the other hand, folks have been talking about the expansion of "Hero"
into THE FOREVER WAR, and that's a misunderstanding; it isn't an
"expansion" at all.  TFW, though a wonderful book, is not properly a novel
at all; it is a collection of a series of short stories packaged to look
like a novel.

This is a common phenomenon in SF -- probably more common than the genuine
expansion.  Among the better-known works which have been "novelized" in
this manner are A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ, the (original) FOUNDATION
trilogy, CITY, and WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG.  All fine books.  None
of them novels.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 04:46:09 GMT
From: drivax!g1@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Novels from shorter works (was Zelazny reissue)

DOHC@TUCCVM.BITNET (Bob Roberds) writes:
>Hey what about Larry Niven's "Rammer" expanding to _A World Out Of Time_,
>or Joe Haldeman's "Hero" expanding to _The Forever War_, or Fredrik Pohl's
>"The Gold At the Starbow's End" expanding to _Starburst_?  These are
>examples of short stories that grew into novels with no harm whatsoever.

Niven's "Rammer" became the first chapter of "A World Out Of Time" -
scarcely an example of expanding a story to fill a book. And "Starburst" is
almost a perfect example of what can happen when you stretch a short story
past its limits - nothing (much) happens in the book that doesn't happen in
the short story, just more of it.

Never read "Hero".

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 22:35:25 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: (yet another) book--identified! (attn: bob forsythe)

Thanks to bob (uunet!mcvax!etive.ed.ac.uk!bob), the British series of
juvenile sf I was looking for has been identified; appears the author was
someone bob had already mentioned, Hugh Walters.  The series appeared in
the early '50's (amazing, really, but then again my childhood memories
probably up-dated them) through the mid-70's, and in bob's recollection
included:

BLAST OFF AT WOOMERA (the specific book I outlined, with Geoffrey, a young
   astronaut chosen for his small size)
?? (about first moon trip, which dealt with conical beings influencing the
   Earth and who were never mentioned again; how Lovecraftian!)
?? (about moon landing:  I thought this was the second, but apparently not;
   damn, had I known there were others I would have searched for them!)
MOONBASE 1
VOYAGE TO VENUS
?? (about first trip to Mars)
?? (about madman on space station threatening the Earth)
JOURNEY TO JUPITER
THE MOHOE PROJECT
SPACESHIP TO SATURN
?? (about first encounter with aliens while on the way to Uranus)
NEARLY NEPTUNE
PASSAGE TO PLUTO

Hmm, I seem to detect a pattern. . . .

Once again, thanks to bob; another Bob, Bob Forsythe, vaguely remembered
them and wanted the title/author too, so here ya go.

(Anyone know all the titles?)

hal

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 28 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 286

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Zelazny (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 20:54:59 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

KXK112@PSUVM.BITNET (Karen Kessler) says:
> Brand contacted a *person* (Martin, by the way, not Merlin) who was
> already on the pattern.  He did not trump into the middle of it.  I'm not
> sure if Brand actually 'came through'.  It seemed to me that he stabbed
> Martin from whatever dark corner of shadow he was in and that the
> stabbing broke contact.  (Or Martin did when he was hit.)  I think Brand
> would have finished the job if he had actually come through.

Brand was on the pattern, Martin was in shadow.  If you recall, the object
found on the pattern was a trump of Martin, with a dagger through it.
Brand had hand drawn the Trump, and nobody knew it was Random's son at
first.  The reason Martin survived was that he broke off the contact, and
escaped into shadow.  The reason the pattern was only wounded was that
Martin didn't provide enough blood to destroy it before breaking away.

Therefore we know a regular Trump works from the center of the pattern.

> Dworkin's mind was damaged before blood was spilled on the pattern
> (although that certainly didn't help matters any).  He was originally
> sent to that little hidey-hole by the primal pattern by Oberon because he
> was coming unhinged.  That sets the time before Oberon's disappearance
> and before the black road.

Even before he was hidden away he was "The Mad Artist."  He even says that
what dorve him mad was "having the whole of creation inside him."  What the
Dammage to the Blood Pattern did was "erase" part of Dworkin's mind.
("...and now part of me is missing, gone, and it's harder..." etc.)

Dworkin was locked away, not because of the damage to the pattern, but
because he wanted to destroy it himself.  He was tired of living and wanted
to take the Jewel and a dagger to the center of the pattern and use both to
kill himself.  That would leave Oberon to make a new pattern (if he wanted
to).  Oberon considered this notion insane, and so he put the little animal
out to keep Dworkin (when in a fit of madness) away from the pattern.

> I wonder if a trump of a pattern would have to include the pattern in
> itself?  Then you'd end up 'walking' it whenever you used that trump
> anyway.  (just a bit of mind bending on my part)

Certainly it would.  All working Amber Trumps contain some of all of the
pattern in their visible design.

If you want to really bend you mind; How about a Logris Trump of Dworkin's
Blood Pattern?  What would happen if you used it?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 02:45:33 GMT
From: chi@csvax.caltech.edu (Curt Hagenlocher)
Subject: Corwin's Curse (was Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe)

I suppose I should say...SPOILERS for the first Amber series ahead!

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET (Christopher Tate) writes:
>_Nine Princes in Amber_ was written originally as a stand-alone book; it
>was some time before Zelazny got around to making it a series.
>Consequently, it has a different feel than the other books.  Later in the
>series (after the second book) Corwin's curse is blamed less and less for
>the black road; it is discussed as the direct result of Brand's act of
>spilling royal blood on the primal pattern.  I therefore disagree that a
>crucial element in the road's creation was Corwin's curse; Zelazny seems
>to replace that explanation with the business about Brand.

Of course the discrepancy here is caused by the fact that Zelazny had not
planned out the entire series at the time of writing _Nine_Princes_, but I
have two pet "justifications" for the events as described in the book.

1) Corwin (and others not in the know) believe that it is his curse which
is causing the black road to occur.  They have no clue regarding the Primal
Pattern and the mischief caused thereon.  The curse is the only thing which
they can think of as having caused the road.

2) Brand was unable to spill so much blood on the Pattern that reality was
weakened enough to allow the road to reach Amber.  Corwin's curse was the
"straw that broke the camel's back."

What do you think?

Curt Hagenlocher    
!ames!elroy!cit-vax!chi
chi@cit-vax.caltech.edu
chi@citiago.bitnet   

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 20:07:12 GMT
From: survey@e.ms.uky.edu (D. W. James  -- Staff Account)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET (Christopher Tate) writes:
>survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) says:
>>Dworkin's comments make it obvious that the madness in him *was* caused
>>by the damage to the pattern.  Remember time differential.  Also note
>>that this predates the Black Road because a crutial element in it was
>>Corwin's curse.  Appropriately enough, his madness and imprisonment
>>would have to come before Oberon's disappearance and the Black Road.
 >
>_Nine Princes in Amber_ was written originally as a stand-alone book; it
>was some time before Zelazny got around to making it a series.

   NPiA was *not* written as a stand-alone book.  He *did* anticipate it
only taking a couple of books to finish the story.  Ask him sometime.

>Consequently, it has a different feel than the other books.  Later in the
>series (after the second book) Corwin's curse is blamed less and less for
>the black road; it is discussed as the direct result of Brand's act of
>spilling royal blood on the primal pattern.  I therefore disagree that a
>crucial element in the road's creation was Corwin's curse; Zelazny seems
>to replace that explanation with the business about Brand.

   It has a different feel because it was written during his best period.
Between 1965 and 1970 Roger was at his peak.  Since then he has only
occasionaly re-achieved the levels he reached here.  For the opening of a
book I'll stack the first 3 pages of NPiA against *anything* for its
ability to grab a reader and hold his/her attention.

   You are correct, as we get further on into the series the role of
Corwin's curse in the causes of the Black Road is downplayed.  But
remember, this is not a third person story, this is being told by Corwin
himself.  He doesn't *want* the blame for the thing (though he accepted it
when it was all he knew.)  So yes, as the story goes on the role of his
curse is downplayed while the role of Brand's actions is made more of.  But
that is in keeping with the narration.  The Guns of Avalon made it clear
that his curse *was* indeed a crucial element.
 
>Also, Dworkin had been imprisoned for quite some time (and that's AMBER
>time!)  before he appeared, insane, in Corwin's cell under Amber.  He was
>imprisoned by Oberon BECAUSE of his madness. Thus, his insanity could not
>be an effect of Brand's damaging the Pattern, since Oberon had been
>missing for decades before the power struggle became acute.

   Actually, all we know is that he disappeared for a while, then shows up
imprisoned by Oberon.  How much of that time he was mad is uncertain.
Second, we don't (at least I don't recall) having a concrete time when the
damage was done.  It certainly seems to have been there, but more or less
inefective, until Corwin's curse.

   Then again, we may be dealing with a problem of Roger losing track of
his continuity over the years.  It happens, ask him some time how big the
pattern is.  In the books he says yards, in person he points to areas that
shows he meant *feet*.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 16:02:00 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: AMBER - Julia and Fiona (and Moire)

REZAC@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:
>1. Fiona knows who Julia is, and it bothers her.  When Merlin showed her
>the picture of himself, "Luke", Julia and Gail he interpretted her
>reaction to her recognizing Luke.  She may have, but what upset her was
>that she recognized Julia.  So who's Julia?

I don't remember the scene you're describing, but from the description it
seems pretty clear. Julia must be Fiona's daughter. After all, the princes
of Amber seem to go about various shadows reproducing with the local
populace, so why shouldn't the princesses?

On that subject, it's nice to see Fiona and various other female characters
taking a more active role. In the first series, they seemed to mostly stand
around making sympathetic noises and getting used as pawns. (Someone's
going to contradict me on this one, I'll bet.)

While we're talking about Amber, wasn't the queen in Rebma named "Moire"?
Since this term means the superimposure of two or more patterns, how does
it apply to her?

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 01:39:11 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

Someone wrote: (paraphrased:)
> There can't be another multiverse coming off of Corwin's Pattern because
> it would have to border on the Courts of Chaos, and the Chaos powers
> (i.e.  Merlin) would notice.

Well, not necessarily. I think. This is my concept of the levels of Powers
and Things:

Ultimate Chaos and the Pattern in the Jewel
The Logrus and the Primal Pattern
Shadows (of which Amber is closest to PP, as usual)

The idea is that the Logrus is an opposite of the PP, and didn't exist
before Dworkin did his thing. This would mean that Corwin's P. has its own
opposite Logrus with another series of Shadows between them.  Evidence:
Primal Chaos (the stuff that existed before the PP) is accessible to
initiated Logrus users, but is difficult for the best of them to control,
implying a higher precedence. It would correspond to the Jewel powers that
are somewhat accessible to Pattern users.  Also, Logrus and Pattern users
seem to have about the same level of power.

The alternate Logrus would be surrounded by an area like the Courts, but
would not necessarily be inhabited; the Lords of Chaos retreated to the
Courts area when the PP first went up, and lost direct access to most of
the multiverse (since most of the multiverse had turned from Primal Chaos
to Shadow.)

This is merely my theory (which is my own, and belongs to me) but it seems
to fit and balances nicely. I will be terribly put out if Zelazny
contradicts it in coming books.

>Can you use the Pattern to transport oneself somewhere where one has never
>been?

I don't know, but remember that except for places of special significance
(Courts, Amber, the Shadow residence of a particular person) you can
visualize anything and go to an identical Shadow.

>>> Can you Trump to a Pattern and then transport out?
>>
>>Not quite.  It's not being in the center of the pattern that allows you
>>to transport anywhere you wish, it's having walked the pattern.
>>Transporting into the center of another pattern, or trumping in, or
>>whatever, will not allow you to then transport somewhere else.
>
>Not so.  In _Nine_Princes_in_Amber_, Corwin, after walking the Rebma
>Pattern, uses it to transport himself to the center of the Amber Pattern.
>Then, he uses the Amber pattern to put himself elsewhere in the castle, so
>that he can reach the ibrary.

It's possible that whatever 'charge' or ability which is gained by walking
the P is not dissipated by transferring to another P.  However, I seem to
recall that someone (in the first series) Trumped into one Pattern (to
someone who was already there) and then transported out. I'll check this
later.

I -am- sure that Trumps can be used from inside the P, at least for
person-to-person contact and transfer. See various maneuvers to stop Brand
from walking P with Jewel in first series. (This was not checked with the
Primal P, however.)

Another point: If Dworkin's P and Corwin's are of equal power, symmetry
would (maybe) imply that Dworkin's P is out in the hinterlands of Shadow in
Corwin's universe-system, in the same way that the reverse is true. (Lord,
I'm on shaky ground now. I'll stop here.)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 20:42:00 GMT
From: bradley!bucc2!sterling@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: AMBER - Julia and Fiona

KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU!REZAC writes:
>...it has yet to be establish that Random, who is Corwin's full brother,
>cannot walk Corwin's pattern....all we know for sure is that he declined
>to try.)

   A few months back I bought the Combat Command trace-your-own-story of
Zelazny's Amber, mainly for the additional, behind-the-scenes notes by
Zelazny in the front.  In these notes, Zelazny wrote that, in book 1, where
Corwin says that he and Random had common parents, unlike Corwin and Eric,
that Corwin was actually badly confused, tired, and that Corwin was thus
making up his own distorted version of the truth.
   According to these notes, Eric and Corwin *are* full brothers, while
Corwin and Random are only *half*-brothers.  This is further proved near
the end of book 3 where Corwin claims that both he and Eric were born to
Faiella.  The only mention of Random's mother that I can remember is from
the notes, where it's mentioned that she later committed suicide.

Stuart Hipke
{ihnp4,uiucdcs,noao,cepu,attmail}!bradley!bucc2!sterling

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 21:22:33 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

>My original question referred specifically to the question that started
>this all: "How do you get to Corwin's universe?"

(I'm following this argument about a week and a half behind, due to my
#%$#% slow node, so forgive any rehashing...)

Shouldn't there be some inherent difference between Shadows cast by two
different Patterns? (No evidence for this -- obviously -- but the case
could be argued.) I mean, we're talking two different bases for reality
here. The Shadows might still be "normal" for practical purposes. If this
could be used for a referent, a Shadow-walker (who knew the difference)
could walk away from Corwin's PrimPat to either universe-set.

Trumps should also go to one or the other, not both; recall that they
contain part of the Pattern or Logrus. This would explain why Corwin can't
be contacted in the second series. A Trump made from Corwin's P would go to
a location in his universe.

Incidentally, it's worth mentioning that the power gained from the Fountain
at Four Worlds (ie Brand's power, etc) is probably related only to
Dworkin's universes and not Corwin's. Remember, the Four Worlds that create
the power are four Shadows of Dworkin's P.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 06:22:26 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Zelazny, Amber, when is the next book due?

>Does anyone know when the next book is due?  It is getting hard to wait.

Bad news. The last hardcover (Sign of Chaos) was published last October.
It's now out in paperback, and I hadn't heard anything about the next book.
Not a good sign.

So I went and checked. It wasn't mentioned at all in the Publisher's Weekly
Fall Announcements issue. I haven't gotten any publicity on it (not
terribly unusual). So I went to the final arbiter: my friends at Future
Fantasy bookstore.

The new Amber book hasn't made it to their order sheets yet. This means the
earliest it can be published is December, since they've already ordered
that far ahead. It looks like the next Amber book is going to be greatly
delayed, probably into 1989. argh.

For Amberholics, though, Avon is about to publish a new trade paperback
called "Roger Zelazny's Visual Guide to Castle Amber," by Roger Zelazny and
Neil Randall (November, 0-380-75566-1). I'm reading a galley of it now, and
it's not great, but it's not as bad as it could have been -- and there's a
lot of interesting Amber information in it. (No spoilers, though.  It's set
in the time after Sign of Chaos but before the the next book).

One really interesting side note: on page 98, they've got a picture of a
shelf in one of the libraries. On it are a series of books with the
following titles:

   Nine Princes in Amber
   The Guns of Avalon
   Sign of the Unicorn
   The Hand of Oberon
   The Courts of Chaos
   Trumps of Doom
   Blood of Amber
   Sign of Chaos
   Seven No Trump
   Black Road War

The first five, of course, are the first set of Amber books. The next three
are the three published in the second set. This implies that the next book
will be titled Seven No Trump, and the book after that would be Black Road
War.

Interesting titles. And one more thing. Sitting WITH those books are two
other volumes with titles purposefully obscured. Which implies to me that
Zelazny is planning on writing a total of twelve books (five in the first
'trilogy' and seven in the current 'trilogy') instead of the currently
announced ten.

Fascinating, don't you think?

(there are a couple of really cute in-jokes in the Visual Guide, including
the insane person in the dungeon who swears he's really from Earth, and
really the author of the Amber series. Maybe THAT's why book four is
late....

Sorry for the bad news.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 28 Sep 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 287

Today's Topics:

		   Magazines - Recommendations (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 17:58:38 GMT
From: anich@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Steven Anich)
Subject: SF Magazines

I was wondering what people thought of the various SF magazines that exist,
such as Analog, Twilight Zone and Amazing.  Which are the dogs?

Also, are there any real good fanzines out there?

How about any non-U.S.  SF magazines in English?

What about the paperback magazines?

Any info would be appreciated.

Steve Anich 
anich@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 21:02:30 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

>I was wondering what people thought of the various SF magazines that
>exist, such as Analog, Twilight Zone and Amazing.  Which are the dogs?

Hmm. In general, rating magazines, like rating fiction, is a highly
subjective thing. Guaranteed to create lots of discussion. But since
Controversy is Fun, I'll toss out a few comments so folks have can yell at
me for a while. So, here's my listing of my preferences.

Must Reads:

   Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine: This is is where almost every award winner
   and nominee comes from these days. Gardner has put together the cream of
   the crop -- top line authors and their top-line stories. If there's only
   one magazine in your life, this has got to be it. It's where it is
   happening, and looks like it'll continue happening here.

Good Reads:

   Weird Tales: Just revitalized (again), it's looks impressive. Not enough
   of a track record to put on the must-read list, but ask me again in a
   year.

   Fantasy & Science Fiction: eclectic, sometimes inconsistent, but there's
   always stuff here worth reading. A.J. Budrys does a column of criticism.
   Harlan Ellison does Ellison. I think the overall quality is slipping a
   bit, though.

   Amazing Science Fiction: the little cousin of the big magazines, it's
   not as big or as well known, but Patrick Price does a good job at
   publishing the folks who seem to become famous a couple of years later.
   Pretty good fiction. It's improving.

Worth Looking at:

   Aboriginal Science Fiction: Keeps getting better. High production
   values, weird (to bad) art, and a limited budget, they still turn out
   some reasonable stuff. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, give it a
   year and try it again. Good book reviews by Darrell Schweitzer and
   Janice Eisen.

   Twilight Zone: If you like Horror. If you don't, avoid it. It's not bad,
   but there really isn't a 'major' horror magazine right now, although the
   small-press area is doing interesting things.  A good horror review
   column by Ed Bryant, one of the only two Horror book review columns I
   know about (the other is The Agony Column in OtherRealms).

Needs to be Embalmed:

   Analog: I expect to be yelled at here, but Analog is printing the same
   old stuff they were printing 10 years ago, which was the same as what
   they were printing 20 years ago. If you LIKE this kind of stuff, fine. I
   find that each issue is just like each other issue -- the sameness in
   the fiction drives me up the wall. On the other hand, Tom Easton is in
   my eyes the best reviewer in the business these days (Ajay isn't
   reviewing any more, he's doing straight commentary that happens to
   mention books occasionally).

>Also, are there any real good fanzines out there?

   Define fanzine.

   Seriously, there's lots of good fanzines out there. What kinds are you
   looking for? Fiction? Criticism? News? The list is too long to just
   start spouting random names.

>How about any non-U.S.  SF magazines in English?

   I've heard Australia's doing some interesting things these days, but I
   don't have any details. Hey, Ozzieland! Give us a few plugs! I know
   you're out there!

   In England, there's Interzone. I'd put it in the Good Read section with
   aspirations towards Must Read.

>What about the paperback magazines?

   The only one I know of these days is Baen's New Destinies. The fiction
   is iffy, but Charles Sheffield's Science Writing more than makes up for
   it. Give it a Worth Looking at.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 88 00:00:36 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

anich@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Steven Anich) writes:
>I was wondering what people thought of the various SF magazines that
>exist, such as Analog, Twilight Zone and Amazing.  Which are the dogs?

I'm glad you asked that question...There's a bunch of them out there.  I'll
cover most of them, may miss a few.

ABORIGINAL SF is an odd beast.  Some very good stories published with full-
color, quality illustrations, wrapped in a package that claims to be
published by "a crazy alien."  If you can stomach the quirkiness of the
package, editor Charles Ryan is doing an excellent job of developing his
own stable of new writers.  Some of the fiction is a tad amateurish, but
all shows great promise of things to come, and if the magazine survives
these writers will make it dynamite in another year or two.  I suggest it's
worth buying, if only to help it survive that year or two.

AMAZING is the venerable, hoary old beast of the field.  It was the first
SF magazine published by Hugo Gernsback in 1926, and has been published
pretty much continuously by one publisher or another ever since.

AMAZING has had its ups and downs over the years.  Recently, it has been
mostly down, particularly since it was purchased by TSR Games & Hobbies
(the makers of DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS), but they more recently hired Pat
Price as editor, and he seems to be doing his best to improve the 'zine.
Worth watching; not worth buying on a very limited magazine budget.

ANALOG SCIENCE FICTION/SCIENCE FACT is the lineal descendant of ASTOUNDING
STORIES, and as such the second-oldest SF magazine.  It's chief claim to
fame is that it was the home for many years of editor John W. Campbell,
Jr., who "invented" SF as a serious form of writing, and developed such
then-new writers as Asimov, Clarke, Anderson, Blish, Heinlein, Herbert, and
many, many others; it was the home of SF's first "golden age."

Since Campbell's death in '72(?), the magazine has been in a bit of a
decline, though sales don't show it.  The first editor to fill Campbell's
shoes was Ben Bova, who did a fair job.  He didn't have the magical spark
of JWC, but he understood what Campbell did and did his best to do the
same.

However, the magazine is now edited by Stanley Schmidt, who has a very
fundamental misunderstanding about what Campbell did, and does his best to
do the same.  The misunderstanding is that he fails to realize that the
most significant part of the Campbell "tradition" was _innovation_; he goes
on trying to buy stories "just like John would've bought," not realizing
that John wouldn't be buying them anymore if he were alive; he'd consider
them trite.

As a result, ASF is, today, the most terminally boring SF magazine on the
market.

ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE, on the other hand, may be the
best.  Editor Gardner Dozois encourages risk-taking and new trends, and
while many of the experiments he fosters fail, they are almost all at least
interesting, and frequently a pointer to the writers who will be hot in a
few years.

Gardner is also not above publishing a little fantasy now and then.

THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION is sort of the New Yorker of
SF.  F&SF stories are rarely boring, though there is a certain sameness to
some (about one or two per issue) of them that makes you wonder if they're
turned out in a factory.  But editor Ed Ferman also publishes some very
challenging and innovative fantasy -- less science fiction; he claims that
this is because he doesn't get enough submitted -- and fosters new writers,
though *not* by encouraging the "almost good enough."  He's famous for
almost never writing a personalized rejection slip -- if you get one, it
means he *really* liked your story.

MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY'S FANTASY MAGAZINE or FORUM or whatever it's calling
itself this week is the *youngest* of the prozines, with only one issue
out.  I'll refrain from detailed comment; I'm not impressed, though,
despite stories in it by friends.  What it makes me think of is the old
movies where a couple of college kids say, "Hey -- I know!  We can put on a
musical!" and you never really believe that they can get a real quality act
going.  I picture Marion saying, "Hey!  I'll put out a magazine!" and going
ahead and doing it in complete defiance of having no idea how to do it.

OMNI is a bastard.  Fiction editor Ellen Datlow publishes some damn good
stuff, especially if you like cyberpunk, but there are only one or two
*fiction* stories in an issue and the rest is material that makes you
wonder if you've accidentally picked up a copy of SCIENCE '88 MEETS THE
WEEKLY WORLD NEWS -- tabloid-style pseudo-science reportage of, as the late
lamented CHEAP TRUTH put it, "the 'Boy Survives By Eating Own Foot'
variety" of journalism.

Finally, there's WEIRD TALES, which is technically older than AMAZING, but
hasn't been around for many a year.  The new edition, edited by George
Scithers and co., shows great promise; they are not trying to recreate the
Good Old Days, they're trying to do what the magazine might have been if it
had remained in publication all these years.  The first two issues had
excellent fiction by Gene Wolfe, Tanith Lee, Harry Turtledove and many
others, as well as interviews with Lee and Turtledove.  Highly recommended,
if you can find it.

>Also, are there any real good fanzines out there?

Yes.  Far too many to mention.  I'll mention only two: SF EYE and OTHER
REALMS.

My mention of OTHERREALMS is partly self-serving, as I'm a regular
contributor thereto; but it just missed the Hugo ballot last year, so it
can't be too bad.  If you have a news feed, you can probably get
OTHERREALMS in the electronic edition, though you miss the incredible,
state-of-the-art desktop publishing job done by Chuq vonRospach and several
human, avian, and electronic assistants, the lush illustrations, and the
good feel of paper in your hands.

OR is essentially in the business of reviewing fantasy, horror, and science
fiction books, with occasional interviews and "how I wrote it" articles.

SF EYE is a slick, tabloid-format zine with an attitude.  The last two
issues (there have been three so far) have featured interviews with Lucius
Sheppard and Samuel R. Delany; fiction by Richard A. Lupoff, John Shirley,
Paul diFilippo, and several others; awesome graphics; reviews and articles
by Rucker, Shiner, Lupoff, and Bruce Sterling; and other good stuff.

>How about any non-U.S.  SF magazines in English?

Only one I know of is INTERZONE, which is the best SF magazine of 1971
being published in 1988.

>What about the paperback magazines?

ANALOG, doubled redoubled and in spades.  Mostly right-wing militarist
propaganda with a little fiction wrapped around them.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 05:33:16 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

anich@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Steven Anich) says:
> I was wondering what people thought of the various SF magazines that
> exist, such as Analog, Twilight Zone and Amazing.  Which are the dogs?

Haven't looked at TZ. But the other two are decent. I sometimes pick up a
copy, if a quick scan spots anything interesting.

As to what I subscribe to: The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, and
Asimov's. F&SF isn't as good as it used to be, but that's mostly because
Dozois over at Asimov's is buying up a lot of the stuff that Ed used to get
(something about rates, perhaps?). As for Asimov's... well, for the past 6
years or so, a significant percentage of the Hugo and Nebula winners were
published there. 'Nuff said.

One magazine I've heard of is called "Aboriginal Science Fiction".
However, I haven't seen it anywhere local, though I've heard it's pretty
good (note: Lafayette, Louisiana, population 100,000, isn't exactly a
science fiction hotbed ;-).

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 06:21:03 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

anich@puff.cs.wisc.edu (Steven Anich) writes:
>I was wondering what people thought of the various SF magazines that
>exist, such as Analog, Twilight Zone and Amazing.  Which are the dogs?

The only one I'm familiar with is Analog, to which I've subscribed since
1971 or so.  Its longer fiction is good.  Hard SF: *Real* SF, little or no
belly-button-contemplating steam-of-consciousness new-wavey nonsense here!
(I had to give it a plug, it isn't nearly as stodgy as some other people
(Hi, Chuq & Dan!) would have you believe.)  Its shorter fiction,
unfortunately, is really uneven, tending to *bad* lately.

My last contact with Asimov's was a number of years ago.  At that time, the
magazine seemed to be devoted to silly shaggy-dog stories, and "Teen
student nurses in space" stories.  I found this out after getting a 1-year
subscription, which I did not renew.  I've heard that it has changed quite
a bit for the better, and possibly I should check it out again.

Someone else mentioned Omni, as a couple of cyber-punkish stories imbedded
in a cow-patty of Weekly World News stuff.  This person was far too kind.
Avoid.

Fantasy & Science Fiction -- much fantasy, little or no SF.  Every now and
then I read one, but it isn't to my taste.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys Silicon Valley
vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 13:03:45 GMT
From: novavax!maddoxt@bikini.cis.ufl.edu (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>The only one I'm familiar with is Analog, to which I've subscribed since
>1971 or so.
[. . .]
>Someone else mentioned Omni, as a couple of cyber-punkish stories imbedded
>in a cow-patty of Weekly World News stuff.  This person was far too kind.
>Avoid.

   Why?  Because of the pseudo-science or the fiction?  Given that you have
said you're only familiar with _Analog_, why are you presuming to make this
judgment?
   Stories by Gibson, Sterling, Zelazny, King, Ellison, Swanwick, Burroughs
. . . that's just off the top of my head.  Are you saying none of these is
worth reading?
   (Be terrible to have stumbled over stories such as "Johnny Mnemonic" and
"Burning Chrome" years ago, before anyone had ever heard of Gibson.)
   What the hell are you saying, exactly?

>Fantasy & Science Fiction -- much fantasy, little or no SF.  Every now and
>then I read one, but it isn't to my taste.

   Ahh, now I get it.  You're an old-time nuts, bolts, rocket ships and ray
guns sci-fi fan who has no truck with that literary stuff.
   Never mind the things I said above.  You're undoubtedly absolutely
right, *given that you're an _Analogy_ reader to the exclusion of all
else*.

   (This reply not in the least bit objective.  I publish fiction in
_Omni_, the editor's a good friend, etc.
   However, in accordance with a principle that has come up in several
net.discussions, I am not objecting to anyone's criticism of _Omni_ as
such, just to idle bull, unsupported by evidence or reason, masquerading as
criticism.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 88 16:03:00 GMT
From: bradley!pwh@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

On sort of a related topic, does anyone know whatever happened to Galileo??
It was a "large" format Science Fiction Magazine (i.e. it was roughly
normal magazine size, as opposed to the micro sizes of Analog, Issac
Asimov's, and F&SF) from (I think?) the late 70's.  My dad was almost a
charter subscriber (started with issue number 3) and it went on for a
couple years at least.  I remember always enjoying the stories, but then
they computerized, screwed up our subscription, and my dad quit subscribing
because he was so aggravated with them.

Is it around in some incarnation somewhere??

Pete Hartman
ihnp4!bradley!pwh

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 23:32:19 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines

>On sort of a related topic, does anyone know whatever happened to
>Galileo??

Ah... Galileo. Back in the Good Old Days of Science Fiction, with Worlds of
If, Galaxy, Vertex, and The Alien Critic. (I'll never forgive myself for
selling off my collection of Vertex....)

Galileo, from what I've been told, ran smack into it's own success and
couldn't handle it. It tried to set up a nationwide distribution on
newstands, and the extremely high return rate killed it.

>Is it around in some incarnation somewhere??

Take a look at Aboriginal Science Fiction. Charles Ryan, the editor of
Galileo, is at the helm there.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 3 Oct 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 288

Today's Topics:

	     Books - Beagle & Carey & Dick (2 msgs) & Gibson &
                     Lem & Lustbader & Myers (3 msgs) & Niven &
                     Norton & Vance & SF in French

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 20:30:08 GMT
From: steyn@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: Literary Merit (SILVERLOCK)

NEWMARK@grin1.BITNET ("Newmark,John C") writes:
>> Does anyone care to name any other books which they think have
>> REAL[tm] *Literary Merit*?

For my little bit: I think Peter Beagle's _The Last Unicorn_ is one of the
best fantasy books around.  (His other three books are good too, but they
didn't strike me as much.)  The imagery is incredible; here is one author
who really knows how to use the language.  There are also numerous
fascinating ideas contained in the book; I've read it a few times, but I
don't think I've nearly got them all.  Also, there's some of the best humor
I've ever read scattered here and there.

Gavin Steyn

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 11:53:29 GMT
From: jtsv16!marsal1!iemisi!chahn@uunet.uu.net (Chris Hahn)
Subject: Re: DUNE Listing/Diane Carey

V112JYG6@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU ("Brian E. Boguhn") writes:
> Diane Carey: Her novel GHOST SHIP is another improvement, but she still
> needs work.  She enjoys beating dead horses.  In this novel, we
> continuously see Riker picking on Data, going so far as to tell him he is
> a machine and to stop acting human. (sorry, I just can't see that
> happening at all).  We also see Riker and Troi constantly drooling after
> one another, though both know they can never be together. (maybe they had
> a relationship, OK?  But to play] on it for 250 pages?  C'mon...).
> Lastly, once again we are subjected to a Troi who sobs and cries her way
> through yet another adventure.  I don't know about anyone else, but in
> the episode where Yar died, I was hoping for the Betazoid to get it, too.

I saw Diane Carey at a couple of cons not to long ago, and people asked the
about the Troi/Riker thing and the hostility Riker had for Data, and what
she said basically boils down to the fact that when she was writing the
book all she had to go on was the Writers Guide for the Next Generation and
about the first three episodes.  And according to the Guide, Troi and Riker
were still supposed to have some feelings for each other.  If you've read
Peacekeepers (the second TNG novel) you'll see that there is still a strong
Troi/Riker undercurrent.  Hopefully, now that the full season has aired the
writers can follow the characters more like we are used to seeing them.

> FINAL FRONTIER a movie?  I'd rather see Margaret Wander Bonanno's
> STRANGERS FROM THE SKY...

How could we make Kirk Spock McCoy and company all young enough for the
parts?  This does take place BEFORE Where No Man Has Gone Before.  We
definitely wouldn't want to re-cast!!!!!!  Final Frontier would use all new
actors and actresses because it's before the original began so there
wouldn't be the age problem.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 09:20:08 GMT
From: mih@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Michael Heard)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>Blade Runner has always been one of my favorite Science Fiction movies.
>Now just recently, I've been getting into Philip K. Dick's books (I read
>and throughly enjoyed _A Scanner Darkly_ ) so I decided to read Philip K.
>Dick's original novel _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_.  My
>expectations were that the novel would be even better a novel than the
>movie was a movie.  To my amazement, I was dissapointed.  The novel had
>none of the symbolism or allegory that made the movie such a masterpice.
>
>For instance, in the movie the androids' relationship to their creator is
>constantly compared to the relationship of man to God.  This relationship
>climaxes in the scene where the android Roy kills his creator.  This is a
>scene of staggering power, and it is precisely this sort of power that is
>_Electric Sheep_ is lacking.  The closest it gets is in scenes dealing
>with the bizarre semi-deity Mercer, which is left out of the meeting, and
>I can see why.  Never in the novel is it explained what Mercer is, even in
>the vaguest sense.
>
>I enjoyed reading _Electric Sheep_ if only for Philip K. Dick's
>superlative writing style, but I think it was the first book I've read
>where I have actually prefered the movie version.  Any thoughts on this,
>people?

   I'm afraid I must disagree with Dan here. I found the novel to be much
deeper than the movie, though I do rate Blade Runner as one of my favourite
films. Though I'm relying on memory here (having last read the novel a
couple of years ago), I seem to remember that plot, characters and scenes
were a lot less simplistic, and that this was where the power of the novel
came from.

   The power of the film emanated from visual direction (from Ripley
Scott), and the two leading roles (Harrison Ford and Rutger Hauer, of
course). There were two things I disliked intensely about the movie:
   a). The talk from Mr. Ford.
   b). The silly ending where they fly off into the 'countryside'.

   But the above is, of course, only my humble opinion.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 05:46:21 GMT
From: utah-gr!donn@mailrus.cc.umich.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

[Since we haven't learned much in the last two years, I thought I would
re-post my earlier contribution; my apologies if this seems overly
familiar... -- Donn]

'Silas Snake' (if that's a real name, it's an interesting one!) saw the
movie BLADERUNNER and then read Phil Dick's novel DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF
ELECTRIC SHEEP? and was disappointed.  I personally think that DO ANDROIDS
DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? is one of Dick's better novels, and I certainly
liked it more than Silas apparently did.  I'll try to give a few reasons
here why I think he might be missing some interesting features of ANDROIDS.
(Beware -- some spoilers will unavoidably be introduced in the discussion.)

Silas says that the purpose of ANDROIDS is to create a society with a
unique religion, Mercerism, and ask 'What if?' I think the purpose is much
deeper -- the book is trying to answer the question, 'What is the authentic
human being?' Dick has invented creatures (androids) which are almost
exactly like human beings but lack one essential human trait, empathy; this
lack informs all of the action and all of the characterization in the book.
Mercerism isn't important for its dogma, it's important because it is
inaccessible to androids.  The plot of the novel is only superficially
concerned with Deckard's detective work -- the real point is Deckard's slow
appreciation of the quality of the difference between androids and human
beings.  Notice how subtle this difference is: it requires a complicated
and tedious test to identify an android, and humans are constantly
confusing androids for humans.  The most chilling aspect of this is the
realization that so many human beings don't use their capacity for empathy,
with the result that the planet is being taken over by androids and the
humans have barely noticed.

By saying that the plot is only 'superficially' about the detective story,
I don't want to imply that the detective story is superficial.  As a bounty
hunter, Deckard is placed squarely in the middle of Dick's dilemma, since
he must be able to distinguish androids from humans in order to survive.
The plot events are organized to show Deckard's increasing confusion about
his job and his approach to his final epiphany, not to highlight some
spectacularly violent climax like BLADERUNNER's.  For example, the sequence
with the detective who fears that he may be an android is not just meant to
provide suspense, it's there to illustrate the difficulty humans have in
appreciating what makes them human.  (Witness the detective's behavior with
the singer android after her snide comments about humans being a superior
life form, and Deckard's reaction to it: 'Do you think androids have
souls?')

I think the film copped out in giving 'replicants' the ability to acquire
empathy.  The novel's Deckard is able to empathize with the android Rachael
even though Rachael is incapable of empathy in return; the movie's Deckard
has a much easier task.  There are some great images in the film and some
memorable lines and I really did like it, but the movie lacks the book's
intellectual adventurousness.  If ANDROIDS disappointed Silas, he'll really
hate other works of Dick's like VALIS or THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE...

Philip K Dick is dead, alas,

Donn Seeley
University of Utah CS Dept
(801) 581-5668    
donn@utah-cs.arpa
decvax!utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 21:56:00 GMT
From: nelson_p@apollo.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Gibson

I recently read Neuromancer and Burning Chrome by William Gibson.
Currently I'm reading Count Zero and enjoying it considerably.  Actually,
so far, I like it better than Neuromancer so it seems that Mr. Gibson, at
least as far as this reader is concerned, has broken the curse of the 2nd
novel.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has any biographical information on
William Gibson or knows what other projects he might be involved in.

Thanks in advance.         

Peter

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 09:26:35 GMT
From: jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Subject: Re: Lem

rick@ge1cbx.UUCP (NUB @ NUB.HUB) wrote:
> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd certainly nominate
> Stanislaw Lem's "Solaris", "His Master's Voice" and "Fiasco" to the list,
> as well as "The Complete Tales of Pirx the Pilot".  Doesn't anyone else
> on the net read this author?

Another broken record joins the chorus. Could some kind soul post a list of
Lem titles that are in print in paperback in the USA? At present there is
NO LEM AT ALL on the shelves of bookshops here (either SF specialists or
general). I really want to get hold of "Fiasco" and "One Human Minute" from
what I've heard of them.

Has the "Summa Technologiae" been translated yet?

Jack Campin
Computing Science Dept.
Glasgow Univ.
17 Lilybank Gardens,
Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND
ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.uucp
JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
useBANGnet: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 21:59:21 GMT
From: baron@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Baron Fujimoto)
Subject: Re: Lustbader & the _Sunset_Warrior_

jstehma@hubcap.UUCP (Jeff Stehman) writes:

>I find that I prefer Eric van Lustbader's Sunset Warrior trilogy to The
>Ninja and The Miko.  I know he has other books like the latter out, but
>has he written any more sci-fi/fantasy stuff like the Sunset Warrior?
>Thanks.

_Beneath an Opal Moon_ is set slightly after Dai-San, after most of the
mess of the Dolman has been taken care of.  Ronin doesn't really appear
except as sort of a cameo, and the story is centered around his sidekick
(sorry, but the name escapes me at the moment -- he was the bosun or
captain, from _Shallows of Night_).

INTERNET:baron@uuccux.uucc.hawaii.edu
BITNET:baron@uhccux.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 21:06:35 GMT
From: w25y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Literary Merit (SILVERLOCK)

NEWMARK@grin1.BITNET ("Newmark,John C") writes:
>Has anybody read anything else by John Myers Myers?  I am in search of
>more books by him, because I have heard there are some, but I can't find
>any.  Can someone help?

    In my opinion, Myers' finest work is _The Harp and the Blade_, which is
available in paperback.  The cover blurb touts it as "A Fantasy of Druidic
England", even though it takes place in France, has no Druids, and isn't
even a Fantasy! (I think.)  Myers has another book, _The Moon's Fire-Eating
Daughter_ which isn't as good.  I'm glad to hear from another Silverlock
Fan!

W25Y@CRNLVAX5               
W25Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU   

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 20:30:08 GMT
From: steyn@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: Literary Merit (SILVERLOCK)
Apparently-To: sf-lovers@elbereth.rutgers.edu

NEWMARK@grin1.BITNET ("Newmark,John C") writes:
>Has anybody read anything else by John Myers Myers?  I am in search of
>more books by him, because I have heard there are some, but I can't find
>any.  Can someone help?

He also wrote _The Moon's Fire-eating Daughter_, in which he uses author's
instead of their characters in a weird setting.  There's also an heroic
fantasy, but I can't remember it's name.  They're not quite as good as
Silverlock, I think, but they're interesting.  Also, btw, I would not
consider _Silverlock_ a masterpiece, but tastes differ, and it is
definitely a lot of fun.

Gavin Steyn

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 21:40:57 GMT
From: mcp@sei.cmu.edu (Mark Paulk)
Subject: John Myers Myers

I agree that John Myers Myers SILVERLOCK is a great fantasy, but I think a
reasonable knowledge of literature (say, enough to catch 1/4 of the
allusions) is required to really appreciate it.  Then you at least know
that you're missing something :-)

Other books by Myers that are comparatively easy to find are THE HARP AND
THE BLADE and THE MOON'S FIRE-EATING DAUGHTER (which is a semi-sequel to
SILVERLOCK but not nearly as good).  Myers has written a bunch more stuff,
but all I have in my collection are some epic Western poems: RED CONNER'S
NIGHT IN ELLSWORTH, THE DEVIL PAID IN ANGEL'S CAMP, and THE SACK OF
CALABASAS which were published in MAVERICK ZONE.  (Epic Western poetry!
Egads...)

Mark C. Paulk 
mcp@sei.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 15:29:28 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: problems with Niven's Smoke Ring

lew@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lew Mammel, Jr.) writes:
>Perhaps the most fundamental problem is the Smoke Ring itself. Niven
>attempts to explain that the Gas Torus maintains it by diffusion, but this
>again is categorical thinking. The Smoke Ring as described would dissipate
>explosively under its own pressure.

The biggest problem I had with the smoke ring was wondering where all the
free oxygen came from. Gas giants are not naturally made of O2. It has to
be freed by the action of plants and there isn't enough plant material in
the ring do do that, and certanly not enough to create an O2 gas giant.
And what happened to all the freed carbon?

The only possible explanation would be that the whole smoke ring had been
made by some alien race.

Perhaps the Ringworld Engineers broke in from the universe next door? :->

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 88 07:21:18 GMT
From: cpl1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (thE OutsideR)
Subject: Andre Norton's Real Name

Way back when, my mother, trying to get me to (God forbid) *hurry up* with
my selections at the library so we could get on with the grocery shopping,
discovered for me the juvenile section, along with Heinlein and Andre
Norton (the only two "big" names they kept in that section...sigh.)
Anyway, I eventually noted, around about the third time through
_Moon_of_Three_Rings_, that, on the title page, the name "Andre Norton" had
been crossed off with a pencil and replaced with "Alice Mary Norton".  Upon
checking, I discovered that all her books which they had had been subjected
to the same treatment, in the same handwriting (presumably some long-gone
librarian's).

So: What I want to know: Was "Alice Mary" actually Andre Norton's original
first name?  I know that she's had it legally changed to "Andre" in the
last 10-15 years, but what *was* her given name at birth?

Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 02:44:14 GMT
From: w25y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_

    Does ANYONE out there know when the third (and presumably final) book
in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_ trilogy is due out?  If at all?  I understand
that it is supposed to be called _Madouc_.

W25Y@CRNLVAX5
W25Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 13:51:31 GMT
From: wikh@mathrt0.math.chalmers.se (Ronny Wikh)
Subject: Request for french SF/Fantasy

Are there any french-speaking SF/Fantasy-lovers out there?

I've been thinking of brushing up what little french I know before it
totally falls into oblivion. What better way to do that than by reading a
good book?

If you happen to know anything about *good* french SF/Fantasy authors,
please mail me a list of names and titles.

Thanks in advance.

Ronny Wikh
Dept of Mathematics,
Chalmers University of Technology,
S-412 96 Goteborg, Sweden
wikh@math.chalmers.se

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 3 Oct 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 289

Today's Topics:

			  Films - Aliens (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 04:28:05 GMT
From: ut-emx!osmigo@cs.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

I've been somewhat baffled by what the aliens DID with their victims. In
the combat scenes, they seemed to kill them instantly with those "jaws"
that shot out from under that skull-cap. I watched the old Sarge (the black
guy with the cigar) in slo-mo on the VCR, and he got it right smack in the
middle of the forehead. Other than that, though, I couldn't clearly see
what other "techniques" they used for fighting.

Concurrently, how did they handle those the DIDN'T want to kill? We saw a
number of victims fastened to a wall with a sticky spider-web material. Did
the aliens "knock them out" or something to get them there?

It's also interesting to speculate what the alien population was up to,
since all the people/hosts were gone from the planet, yet the queen was
sitting (squatting?) there laying eggs like there was no tomorrow. This
suggests that the facehuggers can remain dormant in the eggs until they are
somehow "cued" to emerge and head for a victim.

Ron Morgan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 18:25:51 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

osmigo@ut-emx.UUCP writes:
> It's also interesting to speculate what the alien population was up to,
> since all the people/hosts were gone from the planet, yet the queen was
> sitting (squatting?) there laying eggs like there was no tomorrow. This
> suggests that the facehuggers can remain dormant in the eggs until they
> are somehow "cued" to emerge and head for a victim.

In the first book and movie there was a "mist" about two and a half feet
off the floor.  The eggs were spewing out that mist, if you look real
carefully you will see that the eggs were smoking like incense.  Wherenever
anything "broke through" that mist it signaled the nearest egg that there
was a likely target nearby.  There was even a special effect noise that
went with it.

If you recall, the guy in the space suit was playing around with the mist
when the egg near him opened.  The rest is history.

There was also the comment about "centuries of dust" so we can assume that
the eggs can stay dormant for quite a while.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 23:16:28 GMT
From: rossh@umd5.umd.edu (Hollis Ross Jr.)
Subject: Re: Aliens Intelligence

zonker@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Tom Harris) writes:
>The aliens appeart to rely a good deal on instinct i.e. they patrol the
>Colony every night even after it is pretty certain they have all the
>colonists,

 Actually its not certain, they missed Newt, and the lady that had an alien
burst from her when the marines first went into the reactor was probably
captured 2-3 days before then (I beleive that's how long it took for the
"Egg" in Alien (1) to gestate), so they had no idea how many were hiding
out in the colony, away from the colony, ect.

>> If an alien regards itself not as an individual being, with a
>> life-preservation drive, but rather as just one cell in a conglomerate
>> being, the drive becomes one of protecting the hive, not the
>> individual's existance...
>Again your arguments here point to non-sentience.  A sentient being has an
>implied sense of being.  If the aliens were inteligent there would be a

The military trains its members to work in such a manner.  The "Corps" is
the all important, there is no individuality, one for all, ect...

>But what about nets and traps?  There are other things besides weapons
>that that would aid in the capture of victims.  The fact that they don't
>use them again implies to me that they are not sentient.

They really dont need any traps.  besides, what kind of traps would they
set for humans?  Pizza baited trap doors?  They are much faster, larger,
and stronger than human beings.  Better to just close, grapple, and
incapacitate their prey.  Besides they would have to start manufacturing
tools from materials available at the colony, a real pain to figure out.
The only tool that they would be in need of is a spaceship to get off the
planet, or a radio to contact others of their race, that is assuming that
their race has spaceships radios and such.

>There is the argument of not being able to figure out how to use the
>colonist's tools and weapons.

The tools and weapons are made for humans who probably have much smaller
fingers, assuming that the aliens have fingers, besides once again, what
tools do they need.  Maybe they had tried the tools but found nothing
useful to them.

>However, having live colonists at their disposal, they (if they were
>inteligent enough) could have insisted on lessons.

The problem there is getting the point across to a terrified screaming
human that you want to know how to use such and such.  And also, if you
don't know what something is and how to operate it, why allow a human
"teacher" near something that might potentially be used as a weapon
(Sculpting laser, Power drill, Geological Charges, ect...).

>I didn't mean trophys in the sense of pieces of their enemy, but in the
>broader sense of decorations take from the colonists.  Things like
>weapons, tools, jewelry, and other things that stuck their fancies used as
>decorations.

Maybe none of the things that the colonists had struck any of their fancy.
The Xenos Asthetics are probably really diffrent from ours, or maybe the
human wallpaper is their equivilant to a Moosehead over the fireplace, or a
BearSkin rug.

>Last even if it had figured out what was happening, its ability to have
>gone to the right place (not being able to read) is pretty slim.

  I admit that getting to the shuttle in Alien (1) was probably just
"luck", and not a realization of what was what.  The alien was in strange
surroundings, and just wanted someplace to "hole up".

Hollis Ross
rossh@umd5.umd.edu
rossh@umdd

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 05:36:47 GMT
From: DOHC@tuccvm.bitnet (Bob Roberds)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

>This suggests that the facehuggers can remain dormant in the eggs until
>they are somehow "cued" to emerge and head for a victim.

You bet they can.  Remember the huge caveful of them that had been sitting
there for who knows how long in the first movie.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 17:31:56 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Aliens Intelligence

rossh@umd5.umd.edu (Hollis Ross Jr.) writes:
>zonker@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Tom Harris) writes:
>>Again your arguments here point to non-sentience.  A sentient being has
>>an implied sense of being.  If the aliens were intelligent there would be
>>a
>The military trains its members to work in such a manner.  The "Corps" is
>the all important, there is no individuality, one for all, ect...

If you read some of S.L.A.Marshall's work on the subject of individuals in
combat and what they actually did (i.e. "Men Under Fire"), you will find
out exactly how little that works.

>>But what about nets and traps?
> They really dont need any traps.   besides, what kind of traps would they
> set for humans?  Pizza baited trap doors?

Snares and such to stop and tangle to humans, in order to make closing and
capturing easy.  Granted most humans would not walk willingly into a trap,
but a running human might.  Hidden traps such as pitfalls and door
triggered stuff might catch the cagier humans.

> They are much faster, larger, and stronger than human beings.  Better to
> just close, grapple, and incapacate their prey.

Wrong.  Humans have ranged weapons closing to grapple is too expensive in
terms of warrior lives (assuming each human body = 1 warrior).  A human
could take out three or four aliens with that philosophy without automatic
weapons.

> Besides they would have to start manufacturing tools from materials
> available at the colony, a real pain to figure out. 

Not if you're an intelligent creature.  Cloth for rope, web gear, etc.
Utensils to make sharp pointy things (spoons make great spearheads).

> The tools and weapons are made for humans who probably have much smaller
> fingers, assuming that the aliens have fingers, besides once again, what
> tools do they need.  Maybe they had tried the tools but found nothing
> useful to them.

Perhaps, but I fail to see how any intelligent creature could not find a
use for a knife.  BTW Alien fingers are longer and slimmer than humans.
They should be able to use guns (not that it would be comfortable for
them).

>>However, having live colonists at their disposal, they (if they were
>>inteligent enough) could have insisted on lessons. 
> The problem their is getting the point across to a terrified screaming
> human... why allow a human "teacher" near something that might
> potentially be used as a weapon...

Sooner or later the prisoner will calm down.  If the prisoner knows the
effect of what having an egg put near him is it shouldn't be too diffucult
to convince him/her that as long as they cooperate the egg won't be placed
near them.  You wouldn't have to let them totally out of restraint and you
certainly would not necessarily let them hold the gun just point and
pantomime what you should do.

> Maybe none of the things that the colonists had struck any of their
> fancy.  The Xenos Asthetics are probably really diffrent from ours, or
> maybe the human wallpaper is their equivilant to a Moosehead over the
> fireplace, or a BearSkin rug.

Except that the wallpaper was functional.  I just can't believe that they
would not have picked up something.  Pouches to carry stuff in, made
ropes/nets from clothing, knives or other simple tools to use, jars and
bottles for storage, or just hung wierd stuff on themselves as decoration.
The fact of the matter is that there is no evident Xenos Asthetic, which is
an indication that the things aren't sentient.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 19:45:31 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: Alien/Aliens

pmancini@LYNX.NORTHEASTERN.EDU writes:
> In my humble opinion I would have to say that the 'xenomorphs' from the
> two movies showed no signs of intelligence above the level of animal
> cunning.  Someone pointed out that the mother alien used an elevator.
> The argument, I believe, was put forward or at least implied that tool
> users are intelligent.

     Actually, the argument that I put forward was two-fold.  I guess it
was just presented poorly.  The arguments that I used to show that the
Queen class Alien was sentient are the following:
     1) Using the elevator.  Many people have stated that they believe even
if the Queen were of animal intelligence she could learn to use the
elevator.  I suppose that she could have got inside and pressed buttons
randomly to learn how the thing worked (once the base was taken over).
This argument is kind of difficult to argue with.  (Just a side note.  I
still don't think that an animal could ever do this, but that is just my
opinion)
     2) The second argument, that went along with the above, is the
following: Not only did the Queen get in the elevator to chase Ripley, she
also figured out where Ripley would be running to (i.e. pressed the correct
button the first time).  My argument is that the action of making such a
deduction is a very strong sign of sentience on the part of the Queen.  I
would seriously doubt that an animal (given that it had learned how to work
the elevator) could have made a logical decision as to which floor its prey
would go to without some sort of intelligent reasoning.

     Of course, the correct answer to this argument is that the Aliens are
as sentient as they need to be, based on what the current script calls for.
I would think that the argument that it's only a movie is pretty strong
here.  (But it's fun to discuss it anyway).

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 13:59:07 GMT
From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Rogers)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

osmigo@emx.UUCP (Ron Morgan) writes:
>I've been somewhat baffled by what the aliens DID with their victims. In
>the combat scenes, they seemed to kill them instantly with those "jaws"
>that shot out from under that skull-cap. I watched the old Sarge (the
>black guy with the cigar) in slo-mo on the VCR, and he got it right smack
>in the middle of the forehead. Other than that, though, I couldn't clearly
>see what other "techniques" they used for fighting.
>
>Concurrently, how did they handle those the DIDN'T want to kill? We saw a
>number of victims fastened to a wall with a sticky spider-web material.
>Did the aliens "knock them out" or something to get them there?
>
>It's also interesting to speculate what the alien population was up to,
>since all the people/hosts were gone from the planet, yet the queen was
>sitting (squatting?) there laying eggs like there was no tomorrow. This
>suggests that the facehuggers can remain dormant in the eggs until they
>are somehow "cued" to emerge and head for a victim.
	
   The Colonial Marines were ambushed: the Aliens were lying in wait.  If
you examine the start, you see that the first `casualty' was reefed upwards
and nothing was heard of them again. Presumably the Aliens were planning on
abducting them all for use as incubators ( maybe the Queen was laying like
ninety in anticipation of all these new hosts ).
   But, after the first soldier was got, the Marines unleashed quite an
impressive barrage of gunfire. I think that the Aliens were not expecting
such a show of resistance from their prey. They panicked ( such a thing
possible for them even, perhaps? ) and rapidly layed fullscale into the
attackers. They did, after all, have their brood to think about.
   Thus, I think that the Aliens' first priority is to secure a supply of
hosts. They are fiercly strong, and it would be no great effort to hold a
humanhost still while a `web' was being extruded. This they tried to do.
The Marines fought. They couldn't do, and decided, en masse, that the
Marines were too dangerous and just went for an outright slaughter.  

Mike Rogers,
39.16 Trinity College
Dublin University
Dublin 2, Ireland
...!{seismo,ihnp4,decvax}!mcvax!ukc!tcdmath!mike 

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 03:59:54 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: Aliens Intelligence

Just to further pound it into the ground, the Queen alien did not have to
do anything intelligent with the elevator except decide to get in it.
Ripley pressed all the buttons, and we saw that the elevators automatically
return to the top level (for some bonehead reason) when Ripley stepped out
on her way in.  Therefore all the Queen had to do was get in the second
elevator when it opened, and be patient...

Vernon Lee
Rice University               
ARPA/CSNET:  scorpion@rice.edu
UUCP: {internet or backbone site}!rice!scorpion

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 11:21:13 GMT
From: actisb!federico@pyramid.com (Federico Heinz)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

  Although I liked the first movie very much, the second was fuzzy in more
than one point. The ones I disliked most were:

  Time: At some point in "Aliens", Terra loses contact with the colonizers.
Ok, let's assume they didn't use radio but something much faster and
not-yet-dreamt-of (although that would pose the question of why they didn't
report the alien presence to Terra after the first event), so that the
message didn't need years to come through. The planet didn't seem to be
that close (the marines had to be hibernated, suggesting a somewhat long
journey)... in my opinion, all the evidence is strongly against the
possibilty of finding a) a ten-year-old girl (she would have been born
while the aliens were there, and survived ALL HER LIFE in an empty station
- - we don't even need to take the aliens into account) and b) a person being
killed by the chest-burster (it only takes a couple of days from the
face-hugger to the chest-burster phase, doesn't it?).

  Alien vulnerability: somebody talked about this before.

  Much weaker face-hugger: in the first movie, the face-hugger reaches the
astronaut's face through his scaphander. When they take him on board, the
helmet looks like it had melted. In "Aliens", when the Evil Guy From The
Corporation lets a face-hugger free in the room where Ripley and the girl
are sleeping, Ripley prevents it from getting at her face *using her bare
hands*.

  There were another things that bothered me less, but the whole impression
I got was that they had to twist the script until they had the "Rambo in
Space" movie they thought the people were waiting for. As a matter of fact,
here in Germany it was advertised with the slogan "Compared with this
woman, Rambo is a softie".  

Federico Heinz
Beusselstr. 21
1000 Berlin 21
F.R. Germany
(030) 396 77 92
...!mcvax!unido!tub!actisb!federico

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 3 Oct 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 290

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Zelazny (8 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 88 15:45:40 GMT
From: jgreely@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely)
Subject: Re: Zelazny, Amber, when is the next book due?

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>called "Roger Zelazny's Visual Guide to Castle Amber," by Roger Zelazny
>and Neil Randall (November, 0-380-75566-1).
>
>	Seven No Trump
>	Black Road War
> This implies that the next book will be titled Seven No Trump, and
>the book after that would be Black Road War. 

No.  Seven No Trump is the title of the "adventure gamebook" by (maybe)
Neil Randall (I seem to recall his name on it, along with a hopeful forward
from Roger Z).  The book was trash, set after Courts of Chaos, involving
all of the "old crew" with the pronounced (ok, frequently spoken) absence
of Corwin.

  My impression is that the author quickly skimmed the first five books,
forgot that Brand was dead, misinterpreted LLewella and Dworkin (LLewella
the feminist usurper?  Brand the loving brother?  Dworkin the usurper?),
and generally screwed things up.  Add to that that the physical
construction of the book was poor (at one point, one of your sisters is
waiting for you (did I mention you're Random?  Random, dice, get it?); if
you follow one path, the sister will change from LLewella to Fiona and
back).  Random has an annoying tendency to burst into tears, and since this
is an *adventure* book, he's given normal "first-level" stats, making him
an incredible wimp.

  My guess is that "Black Road War" will be Randall's next attempt at an
Amber story, since the title suggests the period of the first series.
He'll probably set the POV to be Caine.  (This book may already be out, in
which case I'm remembering from the blurb, not predicting) No, I will not
buy it.  I'm opposed to "adventure" books on principle, and picked this up
only because Zelazny wrote an approving intro.

>Interesting titles. And one more thing. Sitting WITH those books are two
>other volumes with titles purposefully obscured. Which implies to me that
>Zelazny is planning on writing a total of twelve books (five in the first
>'trilogy' and seven in the current 'trilogy') instead of the currently
>announced ten.

Nope.  The "obscured" ones are probably the real books.  At the time that
illustration was done, there was probably no information on the next book
(since it's not announced yet, it's unlikely that the title would have been
finalized when this book was done).

J Greely
jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu
osu-cis!berserk!jgreely

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 01:42:10 GMT
From: hjuxa!Fiacha.of.Glencar@decuac.dec.com   (Fiacha of Glencar)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) writes:
>CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET (Christopher Tate) writes:
>>survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) says:
>>Also, Dworkin had been imprisoned for quite some time (and that's AMBER
>>time!)  before he appeared, insane, in Corwin's cell under Amber.  He was
>>imprisoned by Oberon BECAUSE of his madness.

I disagree. He was imprisoned because he had worked out how the pattern
could be destroyed. Oberon had some theory that imprisoning Dworkin would
prevent anyone else from finding out from him how it could be done. Why
Brand would want to until he had the capability to create a new pattern is
beyond me. I fail to see why any of Oberon's direct offspring would want to
destroy Amber utterly. Dara's line might want to but I get the impression
that they all post date the black road and so have no relevance to
Dworkin's imprisonment.

Thus the only logic that makes sense is that Oberon knew that Brand knew
how to recreate the pattern. He therefore imprisoned Dworkin in preference
to killing either Dworkin or Brand, (he seens to have been reluctant to
kill his children) and anyway Brand may not have been the only prince with
character to try such an end run to get the throne.

I do not remember seeing a comment to the effect that the damage to the
pattern caused Dworkin's insanity. I do remember some comment about time
having something to do with it.

> Actually, all we know is that he disappeared for a while, then shows up
> imprisoned by Oberon.  How much of that time he was mad is uncertain.
> Second, we don't (at least I don't recall) having a concrete time when
> the damage was done.  It certainly seems to have been there, but more or
> less ineffective, until Corwin's curse.

I imagined Corwin's curse to be something like 'Let Chaos come to Amber'.
Thus the black road was merely a convenient way for it to get there.

> Then again, we may be dealing with a problem of Roger losing track of his
> continuity over the years.  It happens, ask him some time how big the
> pattern is.  In the books he says yards, in person he points to areas
> that shows he meant *feet*.

I always thought that 150yds by 100yds was huge for a simple labyrinth, and
there is never a suggestion that the path through the pattern branches. In
fact it would by impossible to create in the stated manner if it had dead
ends.

Finally, the descriptions of how the defect were generated do not not
suggest to me how the defect appears as a wedge pointing to but not
reaching the center of the pattern.

Nigel
...rutgers!hjuxa!nrh

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 19:04:38 GMT
From: w25y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

    Has anyone realized just what deep shit Merlin is in at home?  Coral
was last seen with him, and the other sister lies in a trance in Merlin's
bed and may very well decide to drop dead as soon as the trance is lifted.
I doubt that their father will believe the claims that one of his daughters
is the illegitimate child of Oberon, while the other is in fact dead and
has been reanimated by a demon.  This could be a major faux-pas for
Amber.
    Also, just what is the current attitude of the Courts towards Amber?
Supposedly, Dworkin scribed the pattern while all of Chaos tried to deter
him.  Yet, even while the war was going on, Merlin was raised to believe
that he would one day rule in Amber, implying that the intent of the Courts
was to take over Amber rather than destroy the pattern.  Finally we have
Merlin's Tutor, who hits it off rather well with Fiona (are they just
looking for Shadow storms together, or are they conducting a few field
experiments in the erotic possibilities of shapeshifted anatomy as well?
Enquiring Minds want to know!)  and also Merlin's older brother, who seems
a very likable guy.  Could it be that an earlier generation of The Courts
opposed the construction of the pattern, but a younger, more decadent
generation likes having Shadow worlds to play around in, and doesn't
understand what all the original fuss was about?  I'd like to hear some
speculation on these subjects.

W25Y@CRNLVAX5
W25Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 22:50:01 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

>> Can Merlin walk Corwin's P? Or Trump into it?

Well, remember Corwin fathered him before creating the new P. This may or
may not be relevant, but there are references to Corwin's being changed as
he inscribed it. On the other hand, if Merlin couldn't walk it, it would
really ruin the rest of the series. (Besides, he was able to put his foot
near it, unlike his relatives.)

>> Trumping into a P and then having it transport you anywhere...

The evidence (as given by You Out There) suggests that this is possible.
Certainly someone would have thought of it (it's been several thousand
years!)  The missing piece is a Trump depicting the center of the Pattern.
The only consistent explanation I see is that such a Trump is impossible to
create. (No evidence for this though. Except the reference that "even
Trumps contain some of the Pattern, if you know where to look..." Possible
interference between explicit and implicit representations? Or just one of
the Ways that Things Work?)

>>What exists in Corwin's universe that does not exist in Dworkin's?  Also,
>>even if you got there, how could you prove that it wasn't a subset of
>>Dworkin's universe?

You probably couldn't, on the face of things. However, the general quality
(or the average quality) of the Shadows might differ as someone said:

>Specifically, I seem to recall Corwin being none too keen to live in a
>world where Brand had created the pattern, since the shadows would all
>mirror his madness....  )

Also, being cast by a different source, Corwin's Shadows would almost
certainly be unwalkable by people initiated only into Dworkin's P. This is
a major difference, since only Corwin and Merlin can walk C's P (unless
(see above.)) However, remember that the Lords of Chaos could walk
Dworkin's Logrus although they were not descended from him (he was
descended from them); so they might be able to walk Corwin's Logrus and
access his universe-set. [I'm still using the theory that the Logrus is the
opposite of a particular Pattern, so that there are now two of them.]

> Between the two Patterns, interference arises...

Only if the two Patterns "project light" onto the same "space", causing
Shadow to be illuminated from two "directions." It seems to me that this
would have much more violent effects on Shadow than a few Shadowstorms. But
maybe.

> I disagree that Corwin's pattern is simply another view of Dworkin's.
> Comments made in the first Amber series support the notion that one
> person's pattern would create shadows with a different "flavor" than that
> of another person.

I agree, but the theory is that both Corwin's and Dworkin's Ps are views of
the *real* Pattern, the one in the Jewel. The *real* P is far more complex,
so two people's "slices" of it could be very different.

> Now, obviously two patterns will "illuminate" further into Chaos than
> just one, and each may illuminate shadows that the other cannot reach...

I've always had the impression that ALL of Chaos was illuminated by the
first P, at various levels of "brightness". The only totally dark spot left
was the Logrus (this is why its shape is dependent on the shape of
Dworkin's P.) In the first series, recall, Chaos wanted to redraw the
Pattern "dimmer", decreasing the average brightness of the multiverse and
expanding the area which was extremely chaotic (ie, like the Courts are;
almost totally dark.) The only totally illuminated area is the Pattern (the
primal one), and the almost-totally-lit areas are Amber and its immediate
reflections.
   If this view is accurate, Corwin's P must be illuminating a different
"space", or all of Shadow would be far "brighter" (ie, much more like
Amber) and the Courts would have shrunk. (It is true that this may be
happening in the second series, but if so, it's taking an awfully long
time.)
   Therefore, Corwin's P has an entirely new set of Shadows hanging off of
it, with a new Logrus at the far end. QED. (As I said in my last msg, I'll
be *real* pissed if Zelazny disagrees...)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 00:29:49 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
> I've always had the impression that ALL of Chaos was illuminated by the
> first P, at various levels of "brightness". The only totally dark spot
> left was the Logrus (this is why its shape is dependent on the shape of
> Dworkin's P.) In the first series, recall, Chaos wanted to redraw the
> Pattern "dimmer", decreasing the average brightness of the multiverse and
> expanding the area which was extremely chaotic (ie, like the Courts are;
> almost totally dark.) The only totally illuminated area is the Pattern
> (the primal one), and the almost-totally-lit areas are Amber and its
> immediate reflections.  If this view is accurate, Corwin's P must be
> illuminating a different "space", or all of Shadow would be far
> "brighter" (ie, much more like Amber) and the Courts would have shrunk.
> (It is true that this may be happening in the second series, but if so,
> it's taking an awfully long time.)  Therefore, Corwin's P has an entirely
> new set of Shadows hanging off of it, with a new Logrus at the far end.
> QED. (As I said in my last msg, I'll be *real* pissed if Zelazny
> disagrees...)

I rather thought that the Logris had always been there.  I also am under
the impression that the "abyss" which is just "under" the courts is true
chaos and unbounded.  It is also implied that the logris has been around
longer than the pattern because there was "a place away from the courts" in
which Dworkin could draw his pattern.  I have even idly considered the idea
that the Logris is a pattern drawn by a truly diseased mind; it is quite
complex, causes temproary insanity in those who pass through it, even
though it always changes the person who has walked it always knows how it
is "now" (holding the logris before him, etc.); in every other way it
behaves *just* like a pattern in terms of what it confers, etc.

I think that Corwin's Pattern is another view of the "same reality" and that
the relations of cause and effect for someone who has assaged it would be
different.  If you recall, the "center" of Corwin's P is not in the center.
Dworkin considered "the island" where he inscribed his pattern to be the
perfect place (when he drew the P) and Corwin considered Amber the perfect
place when he drew his.  I think that Corwin's love for Amber, and his
intent that there always be "A Pattern and An Amber" when he inscribed his
P, would make his P a support for the statis quo.  Since He liked the way
things were, the "connections" in his view would be very like, and mostly
in support of, the ones that already exist.  In the same way that walking
D's P makes "all roads lead to Amber," Walking C's P would make there
"always be a road to Amber" but the natural attraction of C's P would also
add "a road away from Amber" for anybody who had walked it.  By walking
both, you would always have two greatly seperated points to pull twoards
and push away from.  You could walk against/away from shadows in/of Amber.

If Corwin thought his Pattern was a danger to Amber, I think he would
distroy it.  He loves Amber too much to let it kill what he tried to save.
He has already proved he would die to save amber.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 21:59:12 GMT
From: robert@island.uu.net (Robert Leyland)
Subject: Re: Zelazny

quale%si.uninett@norunix.BITNET (Kai Quale) writes:
>I am getting real hungry for Zelazny up here. Numerous postings on the
>second Amber series and two books called Changeling and Madwand have
>whetted (sp?) my appetite, but I can't find them in any of the SF
>bookstores in Oslo.

Another Zelazny title I heartily recommend is "Dilvish the Damned", it is a
prequel, written as a sequel to another fine story (the title of which I
have forgotten, I have all of Zelazny's books, but I am at work and can't
reach the bookshelf :-)

Robert Leyland
Island Graphics Corp
(415) 491-1000 
sun!island!robert

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 88 21:18:22 GMT
From: tegarvin@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Patrick Garvin)
Subject: Re: Zelazny

robert@island.uu.net (Robert Leyland) writes:
 >Another Zelazny title I heartily recommend is "Dilvish the Damned", it is
>a prequel, written as a sequel to another fine story (the title of which I
>have forgotten, I have all of Zelazny's books, but I am at work and can't
>reach the bookshelf :-)
 
The title you are thinking of is "The Changing Land".  I've started reading
it (between reading my assigned English History textbook reading, doing
Engine Math homework, etc).
 
Patrick Garvin
tegarvin@uokmax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 88 21:31:27 GMT
From: survey@e.ms.uky.edu (D. W. James  -- Staff Account)
Subject: Re: AMBER --  Pattern questions ANWSERED (SPOILERS!!!!)

rwhite@nusdhub.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes:
>Dworkin then sired Oberon upon the Unicorn (making her Oberon's mother,
>and Corwin et al's grandmother, ncest pa?)

There was some evidence in something Dworkin said to the extent that Oberon
predated the pattern...

>All those decended from the Person whos Blood formed the Pattern (and
>perhaps also because they bear the Blood of the Unicorn, who is the true
>owner of the Jewel) can become atuned with the whole of order by walking
>along/through the same course used to create it (e.g. walking the pattern)
>or a very close representation thereof.

I like the idea that the power comes from being related the Unicorn, but if
that were all that there was to it, any of Corwin's siblings could walk his
pattern.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 4 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 291

Today's Topics:

		 Books - Asimov & Dick & Norton (3 msgs) &
                         Robinson & Shepard & Walters &
                         Zelazny (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 22:25:15 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: FOUNDATION Pentology - Trantor question

I just finished the fifth book (Prelude to Foundation - which logically
should have been the first).  I then sit back and say, "Now I know what
spurred Hari Seldon to do this stuff," smile, and am happy with the series.
Then, in the middle of the night, while pounding away at my home computer
(or other more interesting things), I am struck by the thought, "If Trantor
was totally covered by domes - the whole planet is one solid city, and the
vast majority of their food, other than the yeast farms and small areas
like Mycogen, must be imported from other planets, and they have few trees,
outside parks, WHERE DO THEY GET THE OXYGEN TO BREATHE???"

Then I start wondering whether I have caught Asimov screwing up, or did I
get distracted during the crucial paragraph that explained that, or just
what happened?  I mean, jeez, I found two misspelled words and a dozen
punctuation errors.  Could he have left out the oxygen?

So, great and ultimately wise net-readers, where was the oxygen generated?

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 15:12:17 GMT
From: abvax!gfs@uunet.uu.net (Greg F. Shay)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner/Electric Sheep

In response to Daniel Appelquist comments:

I agree completely with everything he stated, having had the same
expectations when I went to read the book.  I consider Blade Runner my all
time favorite and most respected movie.  To me, another great moment is at
the very end when Roy dies and the symbolic dove flies upward.  The
question "Do the Replicants, created by man in man's image have souls" is
answered with a moving "Yes".  The scene where the creation meets the
creator is deep.  The debate over microbiology is the created mind in
contest with the creator, almost equal, striving to reach his own
immortality, but in the end, unable.
   The symbolism of the created destroying the creator, for me, made the
statement that the creator in this case erred in his creation.  Giving the
creation a soul but then frustrating that soul's desire for life with death
and no hope of salvation, is evil and wrong.
   Many other parts of the movie have meaningful spiritual messages, and
insights into the nature of mankind.  I have just named a few here.  Plus,
the movie has a unique and intensely involving 'feel', which I attribute to
director Ridley Scott since some of the same quality is in Alien.  You can
almost smell, taste, and touch the movie as well as see and hear.  Another
movie with some of this characteristic of production is Dune, which I
attribute to director David Leach, (I am not suggesting Dune has any of the
same depth of story or symbolism, although to an extent the book has some.
The movie Dune had a lot of potential that unfortunately was lost in the
vastness of the otherworldly setting.)

   What I have always wanted to know is, if Phillip K. Dick did not write
this depth into 'Do Androids Dream ...'  who did?  Who wrote the screenplay
for Blade Runner, and who did the novelization after the movie?  Does the
novelization contain the subtler content of the movie?

Greg Shay
.. decvax|!abvax!gfs

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 11:56:24 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton's Real Name

cpl1@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (thE OutsideR) writes:
>... on the title page, the name "Andre Norton" had been crossed off with a
>pencil and replaced with "Alice Mary Norton".  Upon checking, I discovered
>that all her books which they had had been subjected to the same
>treatment, in the same handwriting (presumably some long-gone
>librarian's).

Andre' Norton, author of the 'Witch World' books and a lot more, is, I
believe, a different person from Alice Mary Norton, author of the
'Borrowers' books.  I think the long-gone librarian made a mistake.

In the same vein, our local supermarket has a video movie rental section,
in which I found 'A Boy and his Dog' filed in the rack labelled
"Children/Family".  The mind boggles...

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 19:36:28 GMT
From: samdixon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam E Dixon III)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton's Real Name

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>cpl1@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (thE OutsideR) writes:
>>... on the title page, the name "Andre Norton" had been crossed off with
>>a pencil and replaced with "Alice Mary Norton".  Upon checking, I
>>discovered that all her books which they had had been subjected to the
>>same treatment, in the same handwriting (presumably some long-gone
>>librarian's).
>
>Andre' Norton, author of the 'Witch World' books and a lot more, is, I
>believe, a different person from Alice Mary Norton, author of the
>'Borrowers' books.  I think the long-gone librarian made a mistake.

I read somewhere that although she has legally changed her first name to
Andre, her first name was originally Alice.

I think some of her copyrights say Alice Norton White???

Either way, she is definitely not the same person as Alice Norton who wrote
the Borrowers series.

And, on a different note, I read somewhere (LOCUS?) that Andre Norton,
Marion Zimmer Bradley and Anne McCaffrey had contracted to write some sort
of shared-world book.  Does anyone know anything about this?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 01:05:22 GMT
From: convex!mic!d25001@a.cs.uiuc.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton's Real Name

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>Andre' Norton, author of the 'Witch World' books and a lot more, is, I
>believe, a different person from Alice Mary Norton, author of the
>'Borrowers' books.  I think the long-gone librarian made a mistake.

    No, Andre Norton is not the same Norton as the author of the
"Borrowers" books.  This does not mean that the librarian made a mistake.
I can think of two other cases of authors sharing a common name (even
by-line) and remaining quite distinct people.
    The well known British Prime Minister wrote as "Winston Spencer
Churchill" because there was already an (American, as it happens) "Winston
Churchill" writing.  The "John Gardner" who wrote "Grendel" (and some other
books whose names escape me) is not the same as the "John Gardner" who is
currently churning out 007 pastiches.
    Yes, "Andre Norton" was originally "Alice Mary Norton."

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 22:49:08 GMT
From: sci!daver@b.atc.olivetti.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: STARDANCE physics

I read STARDANCE this last weekend (Spider and Jeane Robinson).  I didn't
particularly care for the ending, but that's more or less irrelevant.
There were a couple of things in the book that bothered me.  In the latter
portion, our heros make a trip to Saturn.  The outgoing leg of the trip is
supposed to take a year to complete.  Using rather simplistic calculations
(the radius of Saturn's orbit minus the radius of Earth's orbit divided by
the length of a year), that looks to me like it would require a velocity of
41 km/sec.  That's probably too low--escape velocity for the sun from
earth's orbit looks like around 42 km/sec; they'd have to start with quite
a bit more speed to get an average of 41 km/sec.  Anyway, the ship they
were on appeared to be standard chemical propulsion (they only accelerated
twice--once from earth orbit to start, and several blasts near Titan and
Saturn to stop).  They mentioned something about a Friesen Transfer to get
them from Earth to Saturn.  This appears to be just burning your fuel at
the bottom of a gravity well; there were no mentions of using any other
planets in a slingshot maneuver.  They seemed to think they could get to
Saturn in a year on less than 10 km/sec delta v.

Anyway, is a Friesen transfer just burning your fuel at the bottom of a
gravity well?  Is it possible to get from Earth Orbit to Saturn Orbit in a
year with less than 10 km/sec delta v?  If not, what is the minimum?

On the trip to Saturn, a couple of our heros were resting outside the ship,
and relaxing by tossing a frisbee back and forth.  The frisbee had a glow
tube to make it easier to spot; they were tossing it across a couple of
kilometers of space.  No problem, but someone mentioned that a frisbee was
closer to the ideal shape for a space craft than the traditional rocket.
The argument was that a tall spinning cylinder (spinning along the axis of
the cylinder) is unstable, whereas a squat spinning cylinder is stable.
There was some talk about spinning books a few months ago; as I remember,
the upshot was that books were stable when spun along two of the three
obvious axis--the short one and the long one.  Anyway, are tall spinning
cylinders really unstable?

One more frisbee observation--they had frisbees (probably the traditional
kind, but maybe not) in a zero-g exercise room.  How well would a frisbee
fly in a zero-g environment (with atmosphere); it would seem like the lift
produced would be a real problem.

Please respond by e-mail; in the unlikely event of there being enough
interest, I'll summarize to the net.

David Rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 01:51:25 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Lucius Shepard (was: Literary merit (was: ...))

eppstein@garfield (David Eppstein) says:
>elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
>> Shepard: "R&R" was a great novella, lousy as an introduction to a
>> mediocre novel (_Life during Wartime_ -- don't, it's an almost complete
>> betrayal of "R&R").  His recent stories seem to go too far in the
>> "magic" direction... magic is no longer magic if it's too explicit.
>
> Could someone please please explain to me why so many otherwise sane
> people seem to actually like Lucius Shepard's writing?  My general
> reaction to seeing his name on something is to throw up, run screaming
> from the room, or at least skip wildly to the next piece in that ish of
> Asimov's.  All the other Asimov's regulars (with possible exception of
> the good doctor himself) are wonderful.  

Shepard's recent output has the same problem as Harlan Ellison's output of
the early '70s: It's lost all its originality and "guts", probably because
he churns out so many damned short stories that he's running on empty. I
haven't liked any of his stories from the last couple of years (as far back
as my collection of Asimov's goes). But he HAS put out some pretty
remarkable fiction in the past -- I'm trying to snarf up as many of the
"World's Best" etc. anthologies as possible, and many of them have one of
his stories in them, all of which are quite striking if of uncertain
"Literary[tm] Value".

> one of his bizarre-and-morbid-parallel-universe stories and therefore not
> quite so horrible.  I just couldn't manage any of the necessary
> suspension of disbelief.

The best of Shepard's work has an air of unreality about it. The primary
flaw of his recent work is that it's lost all the mystery and replaced it
all with a hokey mysticism that's handled much too heavy-handedly.

For stories similar to some of Shepard's best, you might try to dig up a
copy of James Tiptree Jr.'s _Tales of the Quintana Roo_ (sp?), where again
we get an air of unreality, of mystery.... such stories tend to irritate
people who are literal-minded nuts-and-bolts "sci-fi" addicts, who insist
that any story containing something that cannot be explained by science is
a bunch of worthless bullshit.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
...!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 10:43:13 GMT
From: kev@imperial-software-tech.co.uk
Subject: Re: (yet another) book--identified!

hal@garth.UUCP (Hal Broome) writes:
> Thanks to bob (uunet!mcvax!etive.ed.ac.uk!bob), the British series of
> juvenile sf I was looking for has been identified; appears the author was
> someone bob had already mentioned, Hugh Walters.
      [...] 
> THE MOHOE PROJECT
      [...]

I remember these, truly jingo-istic, but a lot of fun. There were some good
ideas at this level, (how do you communicate with craft beyond Mars? - use
telepathic twins; how do you communicate with craft beyond Jupiter? - put
both twins in suspended animation and use EEGs to drive the telepathy), and
lots of bad ones (Soviet sees British ship on moon whilst in Lunakhod-type
crawler, shoots it with cannon (!), flips crawler because of conservation
of momentum).

The point I wish to make is that one of the series was not about space
travel but about the exploration of a subterranean system (under the salt
mines of Cheshire?), was this THE MOHOE PROJECT, or one as yet unmentioned?
The other points I can remember about it are; the team were called in
because the little guy was the only one small enough to be fed through the
bore hole, his capsule crashed on the spoil from the drilling (!), and the
life forms encountered were egg-shaped(?) piles of animated dust that
threatened him by absorbing his heat (memory hazy about last bit).

Ring any bells?

Kev Holmes
kev@ist.CO.UK

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 07:53:41 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (tom uffner)
Subject: Re: AMBER - Julia and Fiona (and Moire)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>I don't remember the scene you're describing, but from the description it
>seems pretty clear. Julia must be Fiona's daughter. After all, the princes
>of Amber seem to go about various shadows reproducing with the local
>populace, so why shouldn't the princesses?

Well, first of all, the princes need not even be aware that they had
offspring, the princesses would be very much aware of it. knowing Fiona, if
she had a daughter she would probably keep track of her life somewhat, and
would have taken her to walk the pattern at some time.  Julia does not seem
to have taken the pattern. and Fiona would likely not have reacted the way
she did if she had known all along that Julia was involved with Merlin and
Rinaldo. another reason that it is not likely is that Fiona spent little if
any time on earth until Corwin was found there. Julia would have had to
have been born a few years before that to be Merlin's age (assuming she
grew up on earth)n earth)

My guess is that if she is of the blood of Amber she is a daughter or
granddaughter of Corwin.

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 14:18:46 GMT
From: russell@eneevax.umd.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: AMBER - Julia and Fiona (and Moire) **SPOILERS**

** THE FOLLOWING INCLUDES SPOILERS FROM THE SECOND AMBER SERIES **

tom@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (tom uffner) writes:
>my guess is that if she (Julia) is of the blood of Amber she is a daughter
>or granddaughter of Corwin.

I don't think that Julia is from Amber OR Chaos.  If she was and had walked
the pattern/logrus, wouldn't SHE have bathed in the fountain of power
making HERSELF a Human Trump instead of ol' one-ear?

I am beginning to fear that this second Amber series may be starting to
suffer from the "Everybody is a God" syndrome (the same syndrome that
caused me to stop reading the Thieves' World series after about the fifth
or sixth book.).  In this case, however, it's "Everybody is from Amber or
The Courts".  If somebody important shows up in the plotline, they must be
from Amber/Chaos.  Nuts.

Here's my 2 cents worth on Julia:

Julia (If it IS Julia, which I don't necessarily believe yet.  It may just
be a shape-changer who did that to screw with Merlin's mind.) has gained
power, but it is the power of the Keep of the Four Worlds and not power
from Amber or Chaos.  She enlisted one-ear to make him powerful enough to
destroy Merlin because she was not powerful enough without the
Pattern/Logrus.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
(301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.eng.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 02:35:24 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

>I don't know if roger z. disagrees with you about the Logrus being a side
>effect of the Pattern, but I do.  As a manifestation of Primal Chaos, it
>predates the Pattern by an infinite amount of time...

I think one of my messages got lost... my position was this: Yes, the
Logrus is a manifestation of Primal Chaos, and PC has existed forever. But
so is the Pattern a manifestation of Primal Order (the Pattern in the
Jewel), and PO has also existed forever... (or at least it predated
Dworkin's Pattern.)

Based on that, and the general equality of powers available to Logrus and
Pattern users, I decided that the Logrus and Pattern were equal and
opposite.  (Yes, Logrus users can draw on Primal Chaos, but Pattern users
can use the Jewel. And it's difficult and dangerous for both.)

I must concede, however, that before Pattern and Shadow (and, in my
version, Logrus) existed, the cosmos must have been filled with something
other than Primal Chaos. Merlin was told most explicitly that even Chaos
Lords can't survive immersion in it. (By Primal Chaos, I mean the stuff
that he and his uncle summoned in his final Logrus lesson.)

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 4 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 292

Today's Topics:

			 Films - Aliens (5 msgs) &
                                 Planet of the Apes

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 20:59:55 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: Alien/Aliens

Intelligence: I think that the Aliens are "intelligent." but in an abnormal
way.  The adult forms do not have time to "develop cognizance" but there is
a sufficient amount of tissue involved at each step of reproduction to
allow "cloned brains" to be passed at each stage.  Since all of the aliens
have descended from whatever alien "queen" laid the bunch in the original
ship; they could all be the same "root personality" and so a hive mentality
would be simulated by the "common experience" effect.

pmancini@LYNX.NORTHEASTERN.EDU writes:
> 1) They have a very mechanical look.  Perhaps this is the fault of the FX
> people.  This isn't very convincing in and of itself, but it does lend
> itself given the following reasons.

A planet with a high concentration of metals would tend to evolve life that
makes heavy use of such metals.  Lot's of calcium in the oceans causes sea
shells etc.

>2) There is no reason to believe the creatures live beyond 20 days.  In my
>estimation the time between the loss of signals from the colony to the
>time Ripley, Bishop, Hicks, and Newt make it back aboard the Surlaco is
>8-10 days.  [3 days to do something about it, maybe 5 days travel, and 24
>hours of movie time.  However if we take the time that the rescue ship
>arrives as the probable flight time (gross over-estimation) then we have
>3+17+1=20].  Going back to the first movie, we see that the crashed alien
>ship is very old.  Mention was made of the 'laser in the mist' effect in
>the hold.  Instead of just panning it off as F/X could it not possible be
>some form of field to keep the eggs fresh and from hatching?

On the home wolrd of these creatures I may be assumed that life changes
very fast.  For a parasitic life form to evolve, it must be faster than the
life on which it feeds.  The 'laser in the mist' effect was supposedly a
charged gas with a very precise specific gravity.  When the gas was
disturbed, the nearest egg would open.  That is what it was for (according
to the book; actions in the movie bear this out as the intent there also)
Any creature short enough not to disturb the mist, something like a snake,
could feed on the eggs with impunity (greatly reducing the viable
population) similarly, small flying creatures could pass through the mist
without triggering the reaction (the space suited figure really slogged
through it before the first one opened)

> 3) The gross power of the creatures is very unnatural, and they are very
> beligerant.  Locus are more friendly.  Something like this would eat its
> food chain to oblivion.  Ah, those universal checks and balances, eh?

Not if it was very like the members of it's food chain.  Were two
alien-class creature to go at it, the outcome would be doubtful.
Similarly, if we allow high predation on the eggs, and assume a "fast"
biosphere where reproduction of self-mind and fast growth are required
survival traits (and therefore expected life span is short) we get a
re-balanced food chain.

> 4) Why give the aliens a ride on a nasty looking spaceship anyway?  You
> don't see ships carrying whole cargobays full of gypsy moths or some
> other natural but annoying creature?  Surly that is probably how GMs got
> here, by stowing away, but even so it would be prudent to have at least
> some cargo in the bay if the aliens were stow aways.  Ships try to never
> leave a port without a cargo (economic sense).

One-way cargo would make sense.  (see the space shuttle) The hold would be
empty on the return trip.  Plus, the aliens who built the ship didn't even
have the same sense of geometry and symmetry, so who knows what they would
think of as profitable.  Perhaps they were carrying water or something and
it evaporated into the atmosphere after the crash.

> 5) After renting Alien and Aliens and watching them back to back I firmly
> believe that the 'space jockey' is of another race.  The general
> appearance is that of a giant humanoid, much larger than the mother alien
> and without a 150cm carapace on the head.

Actually it looked like something that was trapped in place, and still had
a face hugger on it's face (to me, but it's been a while so. . . )

> None of my 'evidence' would hold up in court, but then Judge Wapner is
> not on this net so far as I know.  I just tried to piece all of the parts
> together to form a coherent picture that explained just about everything.
> Does anyone think that even the producer/directors/actors knew what the
> aliens were or were they just interested in creating a powerful,
> nightmarish creature to chase good humans around a dark
> spaceship/terraformer station and scare a lot of good humans in the
> audience out of their minds?  

So what?!  The book clearly described the *whole* life cycle of the aliens,
and it didn't include a "queen" in it anywhere.  It went=>

egg => hugger => burster => adult => prey-in-crysilis =>
crysilis-slime => slime-feild-full-of-eggs. . . .

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 11:55:12 GMT
From: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

osmigo@emx.UUCP (Ron Morgan) writes:
> Concurrently, how did they handle those the DIDN'T want to kill? We saw a
> number of victims fastened to a wall with a sticky spider-web material.
> Did the aliens "knock them out" or something to get them there?

   That's a VERY interesting point.  Now, I wonder what happened to Newt
when the Aliens got to her.  She was perfectly un-scratched when Ripley got
her back from the sticky web she was trapped in.  I can't believe that the
Aliens gently carried Newt with their hands, what with their usual
viciousness.

   A loophole in the movie, yes!

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-328-8225
UUCP: {rutgers, att}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet:   vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 88 16:13:28 GMT
From: robert@milk10.uucp (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

mike@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Rogers) writes:
>The Colonial Marines were ambushed: the Aliens were lying in wait.  If you
>examine the start, you see that the first `casualty' was reefed upwards
>and nothing was heard of them again. Presumably the Aliens were planning
>on abducting them all for use as incubators ( maybe the Queen was laying
>like ninety in anticipation of all these new hosts ).

I prefer to think that the Aliens were asleep ("they come out at night,
mostly"), and that the Marine torching the young got their attention.

>But, after the first soldier was got, the Marines unleashed quite an
>impressive barrage of gunfire. I think that the Aliens were not expecting
>such a show of resistance from their prey. They panicked ( such a thing
>possible for them even, perhaps? ) and rapidly layed fullscale into the
>attackers. They did, after all, have their brood to think about.
>   Thus, I think that the Aliens' first priority is to secure a supply of
>hosts. They are fiercly strong, and it would be no great effort to hold a
>humanhost still while a `web' was being extruded. This they tried to do.
>The Marines fought. They couldn't do, and decided, en masse, that the
>Marines were too dangerous and just went for an outright slaughter.

I just read the Alien, not Aliens, novelization last night.  It implied
that the eggs are not laid, but indeed, rather are the result of some type
of metamorphoses of a host infected by an Alien, not an egg.  Someone
suggested this in an earlier message and I thought they were wrong, but
according to the book, I was wrong.  The adult Aliens turn the host into
"eggs", after cocooning them.  Given the numbers of "eggs" in the space-
ship on LB426, their must have been a heck of a lot of passengers on the
crashed ship, or their size might have produced more than one "egg".

Robert Allen,
415-859-2143 
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 88 09:10:53 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Alien/Aliens

It has always seemed to me that the stomach-burst "Space Jockey" seen in
_Alien_ looked a LOT like the Aliens themselves -- about the same size,
same elongated skull, same insectoid features, etc.  What if the Aliens
we've seen so far are actually an intermediate (as in tadpole vs. frog, or
better yet, axolotl vs. salamander) form of development toward a physically
similar but fully intelligent form?

Scenario: To survive, this species arranges for face-hugger eggs to be
deposited on various planets to be colonized.  Over a period of time, the
eggs "hatch", and a large population of "bugs" is established on the target
world.  Once most of the competing indigenous life has been eliminated by
means with which we are all by now familiar, the pheromonal/hormonal
balance of the Alien population changes, and the next crop of youngsters is
intelligent (maybe the Aliens feed the "intelligent" eggs the equivalent of
the "royal jelly" used by bees).

Perhaps the wrecked ship found in _Alien_ was a seed ship on a
"colonization mission", with a hold full of eggs.  Something went wrong --
somehow the intelligent Aliens running the ship became victims of the
intermediate- form Aliens.  Perhaps the ship crashed and the eggs got
"hungry"; perhaps a vital component of the intelligent Aliens' diet ran
out, resulting in a hormonal imbalance among the ship's crew that caused
offspring of the crew to emerge as the deadly "bugs" rather than the higher
form, and the crashing of the ship was a (perhaps deliberate) result of the
latter.

Given any of the above, I can imagine that the Aliens encountered in the
two movies might have more than a little intelligence, since they would be
carrying the genes for it -- it's just that in the intermediate form, many
of those genes would probably not be "turned on".

Might the next _Aliens_ movie be about contact between humanity and the
intelligent form of the Aliens?  Yow!!  Talk about racial tensions . . .

Those with long memories may recall that I posted a similar set of theories
to this group last time this discussion was in session.  At that time, one
person responded that they had seen a "Making of _Alien_" book of some
kind.  This book contained a number of matte paintings of proposed sets for
the film, including a ceremonial chamber with carvings on the walls
depicting a small Alien bursting from the chest of a larger one, with
several Alien attendants assisting the "birth".

If humans had to reproduce that way, do you think that people would be less
inclined to engage in activities that might result in an unwanted
pregnancy?

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 14:07:07 GMT
From: hubcap!philip@gatech.edu (Philip L Harshman)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

federico@actisb.UUCP (Federico Heinz) writes:
>    Time: At some point in "Aliens", Terra loses contact with the
> colonizers.  Ok, let's assume they didn't use radio but something much
> faster and not-yet-dreamt-of (although that would pose the question of
> why they didn't report the alien presence to Terra after the first
> event), so that the message didn't need years to come through. The planet
> didn't seem to be that close (the marines had to be hibernated,
> suggesting a somewhat long journey)... in my opinion, all the evidence is
> strongly against the possibilty of finding a) a ten-year-old girl (she
> would have been born while the aliens were there, and survived ALL HER
> LIFE in an empty station - we don't even need to take the aliens into
> account) and b) a person being killed by the chest-burster (it only takes
> a couple of days from the face-hugger to the chest-burster phase, doesn't
> it?).

You would have to assume some sort of faster than light method of
communication although if they had it, it must have been developed since
the first movie since the Nostromo did not have it.  Of course, that may
just have been because the company was too cheap to outfit a commercial
ship whose crew was expendable anyway with such an expensive device.

It was mentioned that the wait before a rescue was about 6 weeks (or
something like that).  I would assume that the travel time between Earth
and the colony was something on the order of that.  Hibernation does not
necessarily imply a journey of years.  If your hibernation technology is
sufficiently advanced, it solves several problems, even on a short voyage.
You need fewer supplies, you don't have to worry about keeping your troops
motivated during a long voyage, and you don't have to worry about boredom.
Would you like to have a platoon of highly aggressive, very bored marines
wondering around your ship with automatic weapons?

>    Much weaker face-hugger: in the first movie, the face-hugger reaches
> the astronaut's face through his scaphander. When they take him on board,
> the helmet looks like it had melted. In "Aliens", when the Evil Guy From
> The Corporation lets a face-hugger free in the room where Ripley and the
> girl are sleeping, Ripley prevents it from getting at her face *using her
> bare hands*.

That just means that the face hugger has limited physical strength.
Remember that it got through the spacesuit helmet using acid.  It wouldn't
do to use that ploy on Ripley, because it would have killed its potential
host. Not a wise thing for a predator to do, even one acting on instinct.

Philip Harshman
Clemson University         	
(803) 656-3697
uucp: ... !gatech!hubcap!philip
inet: philip@hubcap.clemson.edu
bitnet: philip@clemson

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 88 22:45:37 GMT
From: wdao@sal15.usc.edu (Walter Dao)
Subject: Planet of the Apes

(1)Planet of the Apes. (arrival of Taylor on the future earth)
(2) forgot title       (earth has mutants with A-Bomb on it )
(3)Escape From the Planet of the Apes. (2 apes back to earth's past)
(4)Conquest of the Planet of the Apes. (the apes fight the humans)
(5)Battle for the Planet of the Apes.  (last battle between humans and
   apes) 

A few days ago, I saw the Planet of the Apes series on TV.  I have a few
questions about how the series ends.

In (3), Cornelius said that the first ape to speak was named Aldo.
In (4) Cornelius' and Zira's son is named Caesar and he is the first monkey
   to speak. 
In (3) and (5) we are reminded of the idea that time is like a freeway 
    with multiple lanes leading to different possible futures. 
In (5) at the end we see that apes and humans live together peacefully
    (little kids of both races listening to the old ape historian).

So what is the meaning of the end?  Since (4) occured in 1973 (arrival of
Cornelius+Zira) + 20 (Caesar grows up) and the historian said that these
events occured 600 years ago so : 1993+600 =2593 and in (3) we learn that
earth is going to be destroyed in 3000 something .

We also see that in (5) Caesar is considered to be the catalyst of Apes'
freedom (his statue).  Not Aldo's (the bad gorilla that killed Caesar's
son).  If Aldo had been glorified . it would have corresponded to
Cornelius' version of Ape history (3). And since Aldo was rather martial ,
it would have explained the hatred for humans as seen in (1).

With all these Data, does it mean that since Caesar is glorified, (he had
no special hate for humans unlike Aldo).  Earth destiny has changed lanes
and instead of hunting humans, they will both live together in peace.  Or
since the last scene of (5) puts us in 2593. from there on to 3000 there
about 400 years and during that time a radical change in politics will
occur.

Hunting humans will be the order of the day and a guy who remembered the
old days will overthrow the gvt. rewrite the history and erase all memory
of Ceasasr and put Aldo instead ?

So what will happen?  Earth's destruction or peaceful cohabitation with
Taylor who will arrive and be welcomed ?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 10 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 293

Today's Topics:

			Books - Anthony (8 msgs) &
                                Asimov (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 16:33:09 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: Anthony's New Book

PECHEN@PISCES.RUTGERS.EDU:
> As some fellow SF-lover pointed out, the story line of Xanth seemed to be
> getting weaker and weaker after book 4.  As a Xanth-fan, reluctantly, I
> have to agree.

   Hmmm.  I was told that they started to pick up.  I have through number
eight and was thinking on buying the rest.  If they aren't getting any
better, I would like to know.  Confirmation anyone?

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 15:33:29 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet
Subject: Anthony

baron@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Baron Fujimoto) says:
>I believe Piers Anthony is incapable of writing a Great Series.  or even a
>Good Series. or a Halfway Decent Series.  He puts out the occasional good
>book (witness, On a Pale Horse) but anything more?  *blechh* He is NOT
>what I would consider a great sci-fi (hmmm, dangerous term in this
>newsgroup :-) or fantasy writer.  He may be of the more prolific, but not
>"great."  of course, your mileage may vary.

I agree.  Piers Anthony has the infuriating habit of writing first books
which rate good to very good, then following with a second book which rates
mediocre to fair, and going exponentially downhill from there.  One
noticeable exception is the Tarot series, which starts out at bad and
descends rapidly.  He gets good ideas, really good ideas: Phaze/Proton,
Xanth, the Incarnations, the post holocaust world of Battle Circle.  He
then proceeds to butcher those good ideas over three to umpteen books.

Bitnet: cxt105@psuvm
Uucp:   ...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 17:27:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.com (Larry Smith)
Subject: Re: Anthony's New Book *SPOILERS* *LONG*

PECHEN@PISCES.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>Heaven Cent is a new book, I don't know anybody who has read it.  If there
>is anybody who has already read the book, I would appreciate your opinion
>on the book...

I just finished it (well, two days ago).  In truth, it is the least
engaging of the Xanth books, and while I disagree with those who claim the
series lost it after the fourth book, I must agree that it's in a tailspin
now.

*SPOILERS*

The story follows the adventures of Prince Dolph as he and Marrow (the
skeleton man from the last book) set out find the lost Good Magician.  This
was predictable (you knew SOMEONE was going to after we found out he was
missing), but deciding to set the story around a nine-year-old (who seems
like he's nine-going-on-sixteen) was a bad mistake.  The ongoing subplot
that every female creature they encounter along the way wants to marry
Dolph (keeping him until he gets old enough, of course) becomes old and
boring before the first encounter is over.

The series has lost its sense of wonder completely with this new book.
Some images of Xanth are quite powerful - the giant trees guarded by the
Simurgh, for example; Castle Roogna, Jumper the Spider, and so on.  But
there are no memorable characters here, no sense of wonder.  Everyone is
getting so damn CHUMMY!  The Simurgh knows and recognizes Dolph at the
convention of Winged Monsters, and the sea monsters that tried to eat Bink
and Trent where they came ashore after passing through the anti-life shield
are guarding a monument to that event!  Once again, the goblins are the bad
guys, the women are all beautiful (and fling their hair, and scream, and
kick their heels, and jiggle - ESPECIALLY jiggle) and once again we get a
big confrontation scene - never Anthony's long suite and now painful.  And
the whole idea of the hypnogourds is just right out, now they connect Xanth
to Mundania in a synchronous manner - as opposed to the land bridge, which
can lead to anywhen.  And lastly, Murphy is invoked once again to explain
the more ludicrous plot elements.

I almost didn't finish it.  And I have eagerly read (and enjoyed) almost
every book prior to it in the series.  And Man From Mundania is threatened
next year.

A big part of the problem is that Heaven Cent is the second of a "new"
trilogy in the Xanth series, and the first two books, and I would bet the
third, are really one story with so much padding as to seem very frothy and
insubstantial.  Anthony has reached that point in his career, as Asimov and
Heinlein did before him, that no editor DARES point out the fluffy parts
and demand rewrites.  And since he is basically a hack - and paid by the
book - we find more and more fluff in the books as we go.  (Opinions are
opinions, PLEASE let's not have another rehash of the "Anthony is a Hack"
thread - I used to disagree, but not any more, but hell, that's my
opinion).

It is no accident that Anthony's strongest books are the ones that START a
series.  The best of the incarnations books was On A Pale Horse, the best
of Xanth was Spell for Chameleon (with Castle Roogna - a personal favorite
- - a strong second, despite my great distaste for time-travel stories), and
so on.

And the Ozian flovour here is becoming much more apparent.  The tapestry in
Roogna has become a veritable clone of Ozma's Magic Picture.  The Good
Magician gets more like Glinda as the series wears on.  I LIKE Oz, I didn't
mind this flavour when the main dish was Xanth.  But now there is no more
main dish - and now the Ozish flavour feels more like a ripoff of Baum and
Plumly, rather than an evocative aside.

I will probably read Man from Mundania - I still like Humphrey enough to
put up with another Xanth book just to find out what happened.  But if
Anthony doesn't tell me in the next book, Man from Mundania will be
followed by a bookend on my shelf...

But it's really sad.

Larry Smith
lsmith@apollo1.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 16:41:27 GMT
From: dwayne@nyser (Dwayne Herron)
Subject: Re: Anthony's New Book

jstehma@hubcap.UUCP (Jeff Stehman) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>> As some fellow SF-lovers pointed out, the story line of Xanth seemed to
>> be getting weaker after book 4.  As a Xanth-fan, reluctantly, I have to
>> agree.
[stuff deleted]
>I have through number eight and was thinking on buying the rest. If they
>aren't getting any better, I would like to know.  Confirmation anyone?

Get them anyway. I have been a Xanth fan for a long time and I still find
the series amusing and entertaining.  The later books tend to contain more
puns than the earlier ones but I don't see the plots getting any weaker. (
please note this is only my opinion)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 22:09:26 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!mehawk@gatech.edu (Michael Sandy)
Subject: Re: Anthony's New Book

I bought _Heaven Cent_.  Anthony seems to like halfbreeds and
transformations even more than Chalker at his worst.  Imagine a _9_ year
old wandering around Xanth and the worst thing that happens to him is that
he gets seduced by almost every female monster type he meets!

The trip with Marrow Bones, (a skeleton from the gourd), to the Good
Magician's castle was classic good Xanth.  Almost.

Anthony changes writing style every once in a while, Heaven Cent seems to
be a collection of short stories cobbled together around a bad, even for
Anthony, plot.  We get to find out how the Tapestry came to be, a more
disappointing origin if there ever was one.

Spoiler: The Tapestry Sorceress made it.  Duh...  An all too brief
appearance by Murphy, and yet another inconsistent reference story to
Xanth's past.  Anthony should at least try to get his chronology down a
little better than Greek Mythology, sheeesh.

The prophecy was botched.  I _hate_ self fufilling prophecies where
everybody acts to make sure the prophecy is fufilled.
UUUUUUUggggggghhhhhhh!!!!

Why would anybody WANT to be king of Xanth?  Because then they can enter a
different Anthony sexist role in the world.  Adult Conspiracy indeed!

Anybody know if Anthony was making fun of those people who are against sex
education, (all his heros and heroines find out about sex the hard way, no
adult is supposed to enlighten them), or he actually believes any of the
morals his characters expouse?

Just once I'd like to see one of the seduction scenes succeed!  I'm bored
with all these hopelessly repressed heros ! ;*);*)

Actually, it was better than Vale, worse than Crewel Lye, and, in general,
amusing in a cynical sort of way.

Michael Sandy
mehawk@reed.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 15:05:00 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Anthony's New Book

PECHEN@PISCES.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Chen) writes:
> "Heaven Cent"(typical Anthony kind of pun).  From what I read from the
> cover, the book seems to be about Prince Dor's search for missing good
> magician.

Actually, it's Prince Dolph, not Prince Dor.  Dor is now King of Xanth.

> I wonder whether it is worth it to continue collecting the Xanth series.
> Since Heaven Cent is a new book, I don't know anybody who has read it.
> If there is any body who has already read the book, I would appreciate
> your opinion on the book for my evaluation.  Thank you very much.

SPOILERS

I thought it was fairly good reading.

Dolph, nine years old, tired of the bossiness of his fourteen-year old
sister Ivy, decides to find the missing Good Magician Humphrey.  Along the
way, Dolph learns about honor and winds up getting betrothed to two women.

This story was different from the rest of the Xanth stories in that he is
actively foreshadowing events to come (for instance, the prophecy about
Chex's foal), and he is deliberately leaving a major plot hole to be
resolved in the next book (Dolph's dual betrothals).  Normally the Xanth
series were much lighter, which is not meant to take anything away from
them.

One thing I disliked was the constant references to the possibility that
Dor and Irene were watching Dolph through the Tapestry and thus could save
him should anything go wrong.  Personally I hope that's not true; it
completely ruins any suspense.

Jeff Okamoto
HP Corporate Computing Center
(415) 857-6236
okamoto%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 20:02:51 GMT
From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Xanth in general (was Re: Anthony's New Book)

Warning: Spoilers follow for those who may not have read Xanth books

okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>This story was different from the rest of the Xanth stories in that he is
>actively foreshadowing events to come (for instance, the prophecy about
>Chex's foal), and he is deliberately leaving a major plot hole to be
>resolved in the next book (Dolph's dual betrothals).  Normally the Xanth
>series were much lighter, which is not meant to take anything away from
>them.

What you say is certainly true of the more recent Xanth books. However, the
first couple of books definitely left things to be resolved in later books.
E.g. Going from "A Spell for Chameleon" to "The Source of Magic", they said
that Bink (is that the name? it's been so long since I read his name) would
go on such a search. And there was the matter of how Bink would use his
(unknown to most people) power, whether Trent would be "evil" or not, etc.
This may not have been much, but it was something.  

Nathan Glasser
nathan@{mit-eddie.uucp, xx.lcs.mit.edu}

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 15:29:00 GMT
From: bradley!pwh@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Anthony

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>I agree.  Piers Anthony has the infuriating habit of writing first books
>which rate good to very good, then following with a second book which
>rates mediocre to fair, and going exponentially downhill from there.  One
>noticable exception is the Tarot series, which starts out at bad and
>descends rapidly.

I suppose that attitude stems from dislike of the Tarot??  As a person
quite interested in the tarot and things similar, I found the Tarot books
to be one of Anthony's few consistent series that I liked.  Xanth (what I
read of it) seemed pretty consistent, but I have never been a fan of
puns...

>good ideas, really good ideas: Phaze/Proton, Xanth, the Incarnations, the
>post holocaust world of Battle Circle.  He then proceeds to butcher those
>good ideas over three to umpteen books.

Most of the rest of these that I've read, I'd agree.  Starts good and gets
bad...Bio of a Space Tyrant suffers the same fate: the first book was very
gripping, but the rest of the ones I could force myself to read were very
bad....

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 17:41:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: FOUNDATION Pentology - Trantor ques

richa@tekred (Rich Amber) writes:
>"If Trantor was totally covered by domes - the whole planet is one solid
>city, and the vast majority of their food, other than the yeast farms and
>small areas like Mycogen, must be imported from other planets, and they
>have few trees, outside parks, WHERE DO THEY GET THE OXYGEN TO BREATHE???"

Oh, come on, what's the problem?  This is a very advanced civilization,
right?  So they have air processing machinery in operation.  There must at
the very least be air circulation equipment, since so much is enclosed and
even underground.  It seems likely that such equipment would also include
cooling, heating, humidification or dehumidification, etc. as needed.  I
find it easy to assume that any other air processing necessary would be
included, too -- such as filtering, cleansing, adjusting the oxygen
content, whatever's needed for life and comfort.  And you wouldn't expect
people to talk about such equipment, any more than you'd discuss the air
conditioning in your office (unless it were malfunctioning, anyway).

And by the way, don't forget that there was one portion of the planet that
was not covered: the imperial palace area.  I presume that wouldn't be big
enough to answer the question, though.

H. George Friedman, Jr.
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1304 West Springfield Avenue
Urbana, Illinois  61801
USENET, UUCP:  uunet!uiucdcs!friedman
CSNET, ARPA:   friedman@cs.uiuc.edu
BITNET:        friedman@cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 18:04:32 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: FOUNDATION Pentology - Trantor ques

friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> I find it easy to assume that any other air processing necessary would be
> included, too -- such as filtering, cleansing, adjusting the oxygen
> content, whatever's needed for life and comfort.  And you wouldn't expect
> people to talk about such equipment, any more than you'd discuss the air
> conditioning in your office (unless it were malfunctioning, anyway).
>
> And by the way, don't forget that there was one portion of the planet
> that was not covered: the imperial palace area.  I presume that wouldn't
> be big enough to answer the question, though.

OK, I also find it "easy to assume" there is some sort of air processing
equipment.  But, my original point was that it was never discussed, and
Asimov made it clear many many times throughout the series how Trantor had
to import this or that because they had so many people they could not
supply their own needs.  Yet, if you have eight billion people sucking air,
the "air industry" would have to be enormous, yet is never mentioned (that
I recall).  He spends a great deal of time talking about the energy plants
and yeast farms, etc., so why not the most basic of needs?

The Palace grounds could not begin to supply the needs, though the oceans,
as a few others have mentioned, may help a lot.

The question still stands: Do any of you remember READING a passage in the
series that suggested where Trantor got the oxygen?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 07:11:46 GMT
From: g-rh@xait.xerox.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: FOUNDATION Pentology - Trantor ques

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) writes:
>...  But, my original point was that it was never discussed, and Asimov
>made it clear many many times throughout the series how Trantor had to
>import this or that because they had so many people they could not supply
>their own needs.  Yet, if you have eight billion people sucking air, the
>"air industry" would have to be enormous, yet is never mentioned (that I
>recall).  He spends a great deal of time talking about the energy plants
>and yeast farms, etc., so why not the most basic of needs?

An odd point that struck me is the number of people.  Asimov gave 40
billion (40,000,000,000) as the population of Trantor.  Yet Trantor was
supposed to be a world wide city, completely urbanized.  If, for the sake
of argument, it had a surface area of 300,000,000 square miles and a
population density of 10,000 per square mile then the population should
have been about 3 trillion, i.e. his numbers was low by about two orders of
magnitude (and 8 billion is off by three orders of magnitude, and not much
more than the current population of Earth.)  

Richard Harter

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 10 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 294

Today's Topics:

		   Films - War of the Worlds (4 msgs) &
                           Quiet Earth & Aliens (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 14:34:08 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: Re: WAR OF THE WORLDS

BARSIMAN@buasta.BITNET writes:
> I finally saw _War of the Worlds_ yesterday for the first time and have a
> couple of questions someone might like to clear up:
>
> In one scene, the scientist chops off the probing eye-piece from the rest
> of the ship.  Presumably this acted as a periscope.  Why would the
> Martians make this of such flimsy material as to be chopped off by a
> regular axe, while making the entire rest of the ship so strong that it
> was not even touched by the atom bombs?

That is a good question, but I think that the war machines are not made of
any super-materials.  It is the electromagnetic field that that makes them
so impervious to any atom bombs.  In the original novel, they had no force
fields and a simple mortar shell destroyed a war machine.  That is a 1953
movie update (the force field).

> Also, exactly why WERE they so interested in that woman?  Why didn't they
> just torch the house right away instead of trying to communicate with
> just these TWO people, having made no attempt at communication with
> ANYONE else?  We are told they had been studying us for years, so they
> must have known the languages, or at least the major ones.  What possesed
> a creature to come out and try to touch the humans in the house and not
> even come close to the priest or the three men at the start, or anyone
> else at all?  It occurs to me they might have thought the Bible was a
> weapon, the way he was holding it, and even the stick with the white
> flag, but again, we are told they had been studying us for years, so that
> makes no sense.

Maybe it was just plain martian curiosity or even better, maybe the Martian
was hungry.  You see, in the original novel, the martians fed by ingesting
the blood of either the "cattle" that they brought along with them or by
using humans.  Also, no matter how much they had studied us from afar,
nothing beats an up close personal encounter.
 
> Finally, a line the priest said made a great deal of sense: he said
> something like, "If they are so far advanced, then they must be all the
> closer to the Creator."  The point, even to an atheist, remains basically
> the same; creatures THAT advanced must see the intelligence in trying to
> come here peacefully, and must have more advanced morals than simply TAKE
> TAKE TAKE.  The fact that they would ever get to that state is proof of
> that.  Extremely greedy creatures will kill each other off, just like you
> see in our own planet.  That seems to make sense to me, but I'm sure
> someone has a different view.

I agree, but apparently the Martians were so aggressive that they wanted
nothing with peace.  All that they wanted to do was to conquer the earth
and save their own species.  The humans were only a simple pest that could
be effectively dealt with by eradicating them and then using them for a
food source.  We humans are really no different.  Look at how we treat our
own planet.  I would hate to think of what we would do to another world.
Maybe the Martians are closer to the creator but in our own history we used
that as a reason to kill and maim and conquer, remember Manifest Destiny
from your history classes?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 15:00:16 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: WAR OF THE WORLDS

BARSIMAN@buasta.BITNET writes:
>In one scene, the scientist chops off the probing eye-piece from the rest
>of the ship.  Presumably this acted as a periscope.  Why would the
>Martians make this of such flimsy material as to be chopped off by a
>regular axe, while making the entire rest of the ship so strong that it
>was not even touched by the atom bombs?

The trick here was as you stated it - the rest of the ship was not even
touched by an atom bomb.  It had an "electric screen", visable when under
bombardment to look sort of like a watchglass.  The ship itself could have
been made of aluminum foil, given a protective field like that.

>Finally, a line the priest said made a great deal of sense: he said
>something like, "If they are so far advanced, then they must be all the
>closer to the Creator."  The point, even to an atheist, remains basically
>the same; creatures THAT advanced must see the intelligence in trying to
>come here peacefully, and must have more advanced morals than simply TAKE
>TAKE TAKE.  The fact that they would ever get to that state is proof of
>that.  Extremely greedy creatures will kill each other off, just like you
>see in our own planet.  That seems to make sense to me, but I'm sure
>someone has a different view.

Maybe they were that advanced, and were (like us) killing off the roaches.
We just happen to be, in that case, the infestation.

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 16:08:03 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: WAR OF THE WORLDS

BARSIMAN@buasta.BITNET writes:
>I finally saw _War of the Worlds_ yesterday for the first time and have a
>couple of questions someone might like to clear up:
>
>In one scene, the scientist chops off the probing eye-piece from the rest
>of the ship.  Presumably this acted as a periscope.  Why would the
>Martians make this of such flimsy material as to be chopped off by a
>regular axe, while making the entire rest of the ship so strong that it
>was not even touched by the atom bombs?

     This is probably the easiest question to answer.  The ships themselves
were probably as weak as the periscope metal.  The reason that they were
not affected by any of our weapons was that the ships had protective
blisters (EM force fields) surrounding them.  It was these that stopped our
weapons not the hull metal of the ships.

>Also, exactly why WERE they so interested in that woman?  Why didn't they
>just torch the house right away instead of trying to communicate with just
>these TWO people, having made no attempt at communication with ANYONE
>else?  We are told they had been studying us for years, so they must have
>known the languages, or at least the major ones.  What possesed a creature
>to come out and try to touch the humans in the house and not even come
>close to the priest or the three men at the start, or anyone else at all?
>It occurs to me they might have thought the Bible was a weapon, the way he
>was holding it, and even the stick with the white flag, but again, we are
>told they had been studying us for years, so that makes no sense.

     I assumed that they were just looking for specimens to experiment on.
The reason they didn't do this earlier was that they wanted to establish a
beach-head (or should that be planet head) before they began to experiment
with the natives.  The two humans were in an area previously cleared out by
other war machines.  Perhaps this safety factor allowed the aliens what
they felt was a "safe" opportunity to get a closer look at the species they
were destroying.  Or perhaps they wanted to catch some "pets" to play with
or experiment on.

>Finally, a line the priest said made a great deal of sense: he said
>something like, "If they are so far advanced, then they must be all the
>closer to the Creator."  The point, even to an atheist, remains basically
>the same; creatures THAT advanced must see the intelligence in trying to
>come here peacefully, and must have more advanced morals than simply TAKE
>TAKE TAKE.  The fact that they would ever get to that state is proof of
>that.  Extremely greedy creatures will kill each other off, just like you
>see in our own planet.  That seems to make sense to me, but I'm sure
>someone has a different view.

     I assumed that the original premise of the novel is in effect here.
The aliens were coming from a dying world.  They found Earth to be the
nearest "Class M" planet, and decided to take it as their new home.  I
realize this kind of sidesteps the point above, but it does sort of explain
the reason for the aliens' behavior.  The aliens are probably just very
egocentric and regard us as little more than a nuisance to their plans to
preserve their race.
     Of course, this was never blatantly said in the movie.  I would
imagine the new series would explain alot of this (as the aliens are major
characters in it).  The movie never has a scene of human alien
communication so the viewer is kind of left on his own to decide for
himself what the aliens' motives are.

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 17:57:03 GMT
From: well!hrh@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Harry Henderson)
Subject: Re: WAR OF THE WORLDS

BARSIMAN@buasta.BITNET writes:
>I finally saw _War of the Worlds_ yesterday for the first time and have a
>couple of questions someone might like to clear up:
>
>In one scene, the scientist chops off the probing eye-piece from the rest
>of the ship.  Presumably this acted as a periscope.  Why would the
>Martians make this of such flimsy material as to be chopped off by a
>regular axe, while making the entire rest of the ship so strong that it
>was not even touched by the atom bombs?

A submarine's hull is much stronger than the periscope. Of course War of
the Worlds can hardly be considered hard SF to modern standards--there's no
explanation for this amazing resistance to nuclear attack. One would think
the shi would fall into the bomb crater if nothing else...

Don't blame Wells, either: *his* Martians could be destroyed by well-placed
artillery shells.

>Finally, a line the priest said made a great deal of sense: he said
>something like, "If they are so far advanced, then they must be all the
>closer to the Creator."  The point, even to an atheist, remains basically
>the same; creatures THAT advanced must see the intelligence in trying to
>come here peacefully, and must have more advanced morals than simply TAKE
>TAKE TAKE.  The fact that they would ever get to that state is proof of
>that.  Extremely greedy creatures will kill each other off, just like you
>see in our own planet.  That seems to make sense to me, but I'm sure
>someone has a different view.

Since we have no verified contacts with alien intelligences, we can only go
by analogous situations in world history. The verdict here is mixed, but in
general higher-tech. civilizations have strongly distorted if not destroyed
lower-tech. ones, though sometimes providing benefits (such as an ultimate
higher standard of living or improved medical care).

It has been argued that civilizations advanced enough to develop space
travel must ipso facto be peaceful. Try substituting "longships" for
"spaceships" and see if it holds.

Harry Henderson
{hplabs,lll-crg,hoptoad,apple}!well!hrh

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 21:56:44 GMT
From: attcan!cv@uunet.uu.net (CV)
Subject: QUIET EARTH

Over the weekend I rented Quiet Earth.  If anyone has seen this movie,
please submit your ideas as to the ending of the film.  Did he die and we
see him in heaven?  Because he was dying at the time of the explosion of
the grid, was he sent to another dimension?  And were the two others back
on earth still alive?

Need answers!!!

Chantal Vaillancourt

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 17:24:00 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu (The Human Barometer)
Subject: Re: Alien vs. Aliens

HOWELLS@krypton.arc.nasa.gov ("John Howells") says:
Sean Rouse writes:
>Fifty-seven years later (is that right?), Ripley is found, and Burke
>somehow gets at the shuttle's log before anyone else and comes up
>  
>Wait a minute. Maybe I'm wrong here, but wasn't the 57 years of suspended
>animation just a dream? It was never actually made clear how long Ripley
>was lost, but I was under the impression that it was not really as long as
>her nightmare would lead us to believe.
  
[My caps---Gene]

From the October 1988 issue of Premiere magazine:  
     Early drafts of the [Aliens] screenplay also included a daughter who
had grown up and died during Ripley's 50 year nap.  Sigourney felt this
added resonance to her exchanges with Newt, the space orphan she came to
befriend and defend.  "The whole pull of wanting to embrace this child as
my own and thinking, 'No, it's not my child'---THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON I
DID THIS MOVIE, and I got terribly upset when it was cut out."

Respects,

Eugene Tramaglino
Box 71176
Las Vegas, NV 89170-1176
+1 702 731 4064
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 01:56:35 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu (The Human Barometer)
Subject: An ALIENS Question

First, apologies to the group if this has been here before.

Second, I know that there is always the "It's just a movie" answer, but I
am hoping that someone out here will have a better solution to this
problem.  I have been wracking my brains, and have come to the view that the
problem is either incredibly subtle or incredibly obvious.  (Of course, the
answer *couldn't* be that I'm incredibly dense. :-) )

So here's the problem: There appears to be a contradiction in the dialogue
in Aliens.  When she is addressing the "board of directors," Ripley says:
"Kane, the crewmember who was killed, said that there were HUNDREDS of
these eggs."  The chairperson then tells Ripley that there are about 170
colonists on the planet, LV-426.  Okay?  Okay.

Later, I believe in the medical section, Ripley says something like: "Wait.
They (the Aliens) are dragging these people to the reactor site, and
cocooning them for the face-huggers, which come from eggs.  SO WHERE ARE
ALL OF THESE EGGS COMING FROM?"  [My caps---Gene]

Okay, I know that this was a setup for the discovery of the nursery later
in the film, but outside of that: How come Ripley forgot about Kane's
hundreds of eggs aboard the derelict?

I'd love to see the ALIENS discussion get rolling again, so post, y'all,
post!

Respects,

Eugene Tramaglino
Box 71176			 
Las Vegas, NV 89170-1176		
+1 702 731 4064
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 19:12:15 GMT
From: DANIELIN@polygraf.bitnet (Daniel Lin)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

 In the novel Aliens, the creatures knocked out their victims with a
neurotoxin that was injected with the spike on their tails.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 15:56:06 GMT
From: ut-emx!chrisj@cs.utexas.edu (Chris Johnson)
Subject: Re: An ALIENS Question

tlhingan@unsvax.uucp (The Human Barometer) writes:
[Lead in and mention of Ripley's confusion about the egg source deleted]
>Okay, I know that this was a setup for the discovery of the nursery later
>in the film, but outside of that: How come Ripley forgot about Kane's
>hundreds of eggs aboard the derelict?

I don't think that Ripley actually forgot about the vast store of eggs
aboard the derelict ship.  I think she'd ruled that out as a source for the
eggs.  The ship must have been a very significant distance from the colony
in order for the colonists not to have discovered it on there own in all
the years of surveys, etc.  As a result it would be reasonable to rule it
out as an egg source since it seems unlikely that the aliens would have
carried eggs back from the derelict all the way to the colony site.
Further, the aliens that destroyed the colony would probably have no idea
that the derelict existed, let alone where it was located, since the ones
that came from the derelict in the first place were only in the embryonic
"face-hugger" stage at the time they were taken from the derelict and
brought to the colony (attached to some poor colonist(s) face).  Indeed, I
doubt that even if the "face-huggers" had a well developed perceptual
system and memory, they would be able to remember where the derelict was,
given that they were probably transported from the derelict to the colony
in some manner of shuttle vehicle.

So, in my mind anyway, there's no problem with Ripley's wonderings at the
source of the eggs.  She reasoned that the derelict was out of the question
as a the current source of the eggs.

Hope this helps.

Chris Johnson

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 10 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 295

Today's Topics:

		  Books - Ellison & Hubbard & Robinson &
                          Tepper (3 msgs) & Zelazny (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 22:13:30 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: ANGRY CANDY by Harlan Ellison

It's here...

ANGRY CANDY is Harlan's 22nd or 23rd or 25th short story collection.
Collected are "Paladin of the Lost Hour," one or two stories I've heard of
but never read, and over ten other lovelies I can't wait to read. The theme
of this collection is death, and Harlan's introduction had me in tears. The
stories themselves should be incredible.

Anyway, buy this book.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 20:16:54 GMT
From: unccvax!nrk@mcnc.mcnc.org (Nitin R Kulkarni)
Subject: Info wanted ..

Can someone kindly mail me a list of all the books written by L. Ron
Hubbard ? I have also received a complimentary copy of his book "Earth :
3000 A.D." (or something like that). Any suggestions about the book ?

nrk@unccvax.uucp
nrk%unccvax@mcnc.org

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 19:55:27 GMT
From: sci!daver@b.atc.olivetti.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: STARDANCE physics

Well, I rechecked the numbers in STARDANCE: Spider Robinson said something
about needing 28 km/sec, but being able to do it with a bit under 7 km/sec
delta v, properly applied.  I looked at it some more (due to a reply from
Marc Ringuette, mnr@cs.cmu.edu--thanks, Marc), and the 28 km/sec should be
about right (I made a stupid mistake, and thought that the Earth's orbital
velocity wouldn't be much help).  Anyway, as far as I can tell, you'd still
need about 19 km/sec delta v to get the 28 km/sec to get to Saturn.  If
anyone could explain to me how to do it in 7, I'd be, well, maybe not
eternally grateful, maybe momentarily grateful?

Please respond by e-mail.  Thanks.

David Rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 18:10:16 GMT
From: kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel N. Kamens)
Subject: "After Long Silence" by Shari Tepper

I just read "After Long Silence" by Shari Tepper, and really liked it a
lot.  Has anyone else read it?  Did you think it was any good?

Just wanted to get some opinions.  If demand is high enough, I'll post in a
little more detail what the book was about.  But I don't want to spoil it
for anyone.

Take it easy,

Sam Kamens

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 17:33:56 GMT
From: olson@cs.rochester.edu (Thomas J. Olson)
Subject: Re: "After Long Silence" by Tepper (spoilers)

kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel N. Kamens) writes:
>I just read "After Long Silence" by Shari Tepper, and really liked it a
>lot.  Has anyone else read it?  Did you think it was any good?

I picked it up after reading a number of positive comments about Tepper on
the net.  I'm sorry to say that I didn't think much of it.  The basic
premise (active, dangerous crystal formations that may or may not be
intelligent) was cute and reasonably well developed.  The idea of specially
trained musicians who keep the crystals from killing passers-by by playing
music at them isn't too bad, but as expressed in the book it doesn't make
musical sense.  It's hard to pick out specific problems so long after I
read it, but at the time I had the overwhelming impression that Tepper
didn't know much about music.

The plot is reasonably well engineered and moves right along, and the
descriptions are evocative.  So what's the problem?  The characterizations
are really, really bad.  The only really plausible and interesting
characters in the book are the coyote-like aborigines, whose names I
forget.  Among the human characters, the good guys are nice, decent folks
whose problems stem from some traumatic incident in their pasts, and who
get better immediately when these incidents are understood.  The bad guys
are, well, let me see, they're really, really, really, bad.  The prime
baddie gets his kicks by slicing women up into hundreds of tiny pieces.  He
does this, we're told, because due to a brain defect he cannot feel pain,
so he finds pain interesting.  In the writing game, this is called
"motivation".  The other main baddie does something similar, for reasons
that are even less convincing.  One gets the sense from this book that
decent people never do evil things, and that the population can be cleanly
divided into the OK and the utterly depraved.  By the end of the book I was
starving for someone like the cowardly refugee leader in Cherryh's
"Downbelow Station", a guy who is eminently despicable while still
remaining utterly and convincingly human.

So, sorry to disagree with you, Sam.  I'd be interested in hearing what you
and other readers liked or didn't like about the book.

Tom Olson
olson@cs.rochester.edu
rochester!olson

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 00:05:14 GMT
From: crew@polya.stanford.edu (Roger Crew)
Subject: Re: "After Long Silence" by Tepper

olson@cs.rochester.edu (Thomas J. Olson) writes:
> One gets the sense from this book that decent people never do evil
> things, and that the population can be cleanly divided into the OK and
> the utterly depraved.

Hmmm... this seems to be a pet theme of hers.  In the ``true game'' series
(King's Blood Four, ... * Mavin *, Jinian * ), there's the whole bao
concept: either one is born with a soul, or not.  In the latter case,
person in question going be utterly evil and despicable and the best thing
to do is to put him (or her) out of his misery (... now there's some
ammunition for the pro-capital-punishment types).

At the time I didn't think she actually believed this.  Now I'm not so
sure.

Roger Crew
Usenet: {arpa gateways, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!polya.stanford.edu!crew
Internet: crew@polya.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 14:48:36 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet (Merlin of Chaos)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) says:
>I've always had the impression that ALL of Chaos was illuminated by the
>first P, at various levels of "brightness". The only totally dark spot
>left was the Logrus (this is why its shape is dependent on the shape of
>Dworkin's P.) In the first series, recall, Chaos wanted to redraw the
>Pattern "dimmer", decreasing the average brightness of the multiverse and
>expanding the area which was extremely chaotic (ie, like the Courts are;
>almost totally dark.) The only totally illuminated area is the Pattern
>(the primal one), and the almost-totally-lit areas are Amber and its
>immediate reflections.  If this view is accurate, Corwin's P must be
>illuminating a different "space", or all of Shadow would be far "brighter"
>(ie, much more like Amber) and the Courts would have shrunk. (It is true
>that this may be happening in the second series, but if so, it's taking an
>awfully long time.)  Therefore, Corwin's P has an entirely new set of
>Shadows hanging off of it, with a new Logrus at the far end. QED. (As I
>said in my last msg, I'll be *real* pissed if Zelazny disagrees...)

First off, how can the Logrus's shape be dependent on a Pattern, since it
is constantly changing form?  I suppose that its shape-changing patterns
may be determined by the Pattern "illuminating" the universe of Shadow, but
I view it more as the antithesis of the Pattern.  I see it more as an
expression of Chaos and its power than as necessarily a duality with the
Pattern.  The Logrus might well serve as the opposite pole to more than one
Pattern, i.e. Corwin's.  Remember that there is still primal Chaos beyond
the Courts.

The big question here is whether or not Corwin's Pattern opens into Shadows
which cannot be reached except through it.  In _Nine Princes_ is a general
introduction to Shadowshifting, in which Corwin relates that it is still
being debated even among Amberites whether or not Shadows exist before
they're imagined by those who visit them.  Later books support the theory
that Shadow is the substance of the universe, and takes its (set) forms as
a reflection of the Pattern.  But is the Shadow "different" when
illuminated by a different Pattern, or is the perspective merely somewhat
changed?  Perhaps Corwin can walk Shadow without being tracked, since his
Pattern gives him different routes through Shadow....

Also, how can the Courts have "shrunk?"  Remember that they are simply the
last Shadow, on the edge of the primal Chaos.  Since it is clear that not
all of Shadow is illuminated (since there is still primal Chaos it is
impossible for all of the stuff of the universe to be formed around the
Pattern), I would think that the "edge" of Shadow has simply been pushed
back.  By definition, the Courts of Chaos are the furthest Shadow from the
Pattern.

It does seem terribly plausible, though, that the two Patterns scribed by
Dworkin and Corwin are both different views of the true Pattern in the
Jewel, the true nature of the universe.  Now the question is, "Where did
the Jewel of Judgement come from?"

Bitnet: cxt105@psuvm
Uucp: ...!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105
Internet: cxt105@psuvm.psu.edu       

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 06:19:11 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET writes...
>First off, how can the Logrus's shape be dependent on a Pattern, since it
>is constantly changing form?  I suppose that its shape-changing patterns
>may be determined by the Pattern "illuminating" the universe of Shadow,
>but I view it more as the antithesis of the Pattern.

I've already posted a summary of my reasons why I think the Pattern and
Logrus are 'related'. (And I agree that the Logrus is the antithesis of the
Pattern -- obviously in a different sense than you do, though.)

The Logrus's shape? I confess to flights of verbal fancy here; I didn't
mean its literal shape, but its basic shape (whatever quality it holds
constant throughout all its shape-changing.) (When Merlin visualizes it,
he's got *some* reference. A basic pattern, or a way in which the shape
varies over time, or whatever. Whatever it is, it has a one-to-one
isomorphism with the Pattern (in my theory.))

Another difference between our theories: You say the Courts are the last
shadow before Primal Chaos (think of a circle with Amber at the center and
the Courts at the rim, with Pr.Chaos around the outside.) I say the Courts
are like Amber, a specific spot with the Logrus at the center and Shadow
getting less chaotic as you Walk away. (Visualize a sphere with Amber at
the north pole and the Courts at the south pole. Primal Chaos surrounds the
sphere; it still exists, but outside the multiverse, since beings can only
travel along the surface of the sphere and not radially outwards.)

Corwin's multiverse (in my theory) would (perhaps) be a second sphere, with
an axis at a different angle, whose north pole touches the side of the
first sphere.

[I'm not trying to convince you that this is true; I'm merely trying to
convince you that my theory is consistent with itself and the books.]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 21:43:08 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Corwin's Curse (was Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe)

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET (Christopher Tate) writes:
>_Nine Princes in Amber_ was written originally as a stand-alone book;

I've long held a slightly different view.  The first two books are
consistent with each other.  Then there's a big discontinuity.  The
question of the cause of the Road changes emphasis, Dara more or less
disappears, the pace of narration and style changes, Corwin's review of his
family tree is revised, and so on.  My guess is that Z. at first set out to
write (oh no!) a trilogy (well, "three-part novel" if you wish) and then
either ran into trouble or decided to stretch out his success into more
books.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 21:53:37 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) writes:
>You are correct, as we get further on into the series the role of Corwin's
>curse in the causes of the Black Road is downplayed.  But remember, this
>is not a third person story, this is being told by Corwin himself.  He
>doesn't *want* the blame for the thing (though he accepted it when it was
>all he knew.)  So yes, as the story goes on the role of his curse is
>downplayed while the role of Brand's actions is made more of.  But that is
>in keeping with the narration.  The Guns of Avalon made it clear that his
>curse *was* indeed a crucial element.

That's a good way to regain consistency, and I thank you for it.  But, I
don't think that explanation is really correct.  In The Guns, the curse was
the real reason.  Later, the plot required something like damage to the
pattern and so a new reason was created.  In the first two books, the curse
was a sufficient cause; in the later three, Brand's trick was.  So in
neither case was the other cause needed.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 88 16:55:25 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

C31801SE@wuvmd.BITNET (Bridget Spitznagel) writes:
> Anyway Fiona tries to step on it and she can't, something about
> resistance, she says Bleys tried it & the same thing happened.  (it
> didn't when Merlin tried it.)  Is the bit I remember about Wrong Blood =
> Death apply only to Dworkin's P or is my memory totally shot or what??

It may still. We only have Fiona's word on the resistance. It could be that
she was really too smart or scared to risk it, and was trying to use Merlin
as cannon fodder.

Alternatively, the pattern reflects the creator. Corwin, by the time he
creates his pattern, is clearly more human and humane than Dworkin. He
might have put something into his pattern to make it safer.

The bottom line, of course, is that this is only a story. The only logic it
has to follow is that which Zelazny finds attractive.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 05:26:02 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Curses, Amber spoiled again

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>survey@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James) writes:
>>You are correct, as we get further on into the series the role of
>>Corwin's curse in the causes of the Black Road is downplayed.  But
>>remember, this is not a third person story, this is being told by Corwin
>>himself.  He doesn't *want* the blame for the thing (though he accepted
>>it when it was all he knew.)  So yes, as the story goes on the role of
>>his curse is downplayed while the role of Brand's actions is made more
>>of.  But that is in keeping with the narration.  The Guns of Avalon made
>>it clear that his curse *was* indeed a crucial element.
>
>That's a good way to regain consistency, and I thank you for it.  But, I
>don't think that explanation is really correct.  In The Guns, the curse
>was the real reason.  Later, the plot required something like damage to
>the pattern and so a new reason was created.  In the first two books, the
>curse was a sufficient cause; in the later three, Brand's trick was.  So
>in neither case was the other cause needed.

Perhaps both the curse and the blood on the Pattern were causes.  Remember,
there was some amazement that a curse could be effective without the curser
dying.  Also, in the latest book, the poor health of current Lord of Chaos
is ascribed to Eric's curse.  One wonders if another cause will be found
(poisoning perhaps?).

This topic makes me wonder how they found out about curses in the first
place.  Most of the stuff they seem to find out about empirically (there
doesn't seem to be any Grand Unified Theory of the Pattern that predicts
effects like, for example, shadow storms).  So how did they find out about
curses?

At the time of the first curse, there had only been two(*) members of the
royal family to die.  Did they both cast effective curses?  We don't know.
In fact it's only in the last book that we find how even one of them dies.
There was no mention of a curse, but it would have been inappropriate for
Merlin to have mentioned one.

(*) The number of dead members of the Amber Royal family is somewhat in
doubt.  I seem to remember early in _Nine Princes_ Corwin refering to 6
deceased siblings (4 brothers and 2 sisters).  Later on there is only
mention of Osric and Finago (sp?).  Who are the other four?

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 10 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 296

Today's Topics:

	  Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (9 msgs) &
                       New Twilight Zone & Doctor Who (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 88 19:37:48 GMT
From: thalan@ihlpf.att.com (Jones)
Subject: Re: Diana Muldaur (New Doctor for ST:TNG)

calexand@castor.usc.edu (Craig Alexander) writes:
> Which episode from TOS did Diana Muldaur guest star on??
> What was the episode called??
> What was it about??

There were two TOS episodes in which Ms. Muldaur guest starred in.  Read
the following for details:

Is There In Truth No Beauty?
  An alien, so ugly the sight of him will drive a human (or Vulcan) insane,
  is beamed aboard with a blind telepath, Miranda (Diana Muldaur).  Miranda
  becomes jealous of Spock's pure telepathy, and when Spock catches a
  glimpse of the alien, Miranda (who can heal the insanity) has doubts
  about saving Spock.

Return To Tomorrow
  Alien super-intelligences have their entities transplanted into select
  Enterprise officers (Kirk, Spock and a female scientist played by Diana
  Muldaur.  All is going well until the entity in Spock decides it wants to
  keep the body for its own--which means the death of Spock.  Diana
  Muldaur, as a visiting scientist aboard the Enterprise, is selected to
  have the wife of the leader of the entities use her body, so the female
  entity can construct an android body for herself.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 88 21:47:05 GMT
From: thalan@ihlpf.att.com (Jones)
Subject: Re: a Star Trek rumor (Jimmy Doohan??????)

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
> A friend of mine just came back from a convention and said he had heard
> the following rumor there:
> 
> "Nichelle Nichols is going to do a bedroom scene with Jimmy Doohan."
> 
> Anybody know more about this?

Yes, in rec.arts.startrek someone posted comments from the desk of William
Shatner that said Nichelle had trimmed down for ST:V, because she's going
to be in a Romantic Scence!  Shatner didn't say who and I doubt if after
all this time Scotty has the HOTS for Uhura!!  I'm sure she probably has
some love interest that she's very close to in the movie and Shatner will
focus on that and most probably she'll lose him.  After all, Kirk can't
always be the one to have loved and lossed.  With Bill directing we should
get some focus on the other main characters this time besides Spock and
McCoy.  And about time too!!!!!

Gwen Jones
AT&T Bell Labs        
(312) 416-4934
ihlpf!thalan

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 88 18:16:06 GMT
From: chahn@iemisi.uucp (Chris Hahn)
Subject: Bring Back Beverly Brigade

For those of you who have enjoyed the first season of Star Trek: The Next
Generation, in particular the hinted at relationship between the Captain
and Dr. Crusher, there is a letter campaign that has been under way since
early June trying to keep the part of Dr. Crusher in the series.

Although it looks as if the "decision has been made" and a new Doctor has
been cast, there are some signs that the campaign is having an effect.

Support for the return of Ms. McFadden has been strong at all cons I've
attended.  As founder of one of the many campaigns in affect at this time I
have had several people asking how they can help.  If letters to zines,
myself and various fan clubs are any indicator, Paramount must be getting
quite a bit of mail in regards to this issue.

It's not to late to write.  The letters coming back from Gene Roddenberry's
office say that the possibility of guest appearances by Ms. McFadden have
not been ruled out.  And *rumors* are already out that she has been
contacted for possible appearance late in the second season or early in the
third.  So your letters can make a difference!!

WHO TO WRITE:

   Mel Haris
   President TV Programming
    
   Frank Mancuso
   Chief Executive Officer   

   Gene Roddenberry
   Executive Producer

   Rick Berman
   Co-Executive Producer

all can be written to at:
    
   555 Melrose Ave
   Los Angeles Ca.  90038

Thank you for your time and efforts,

C. Hahn         

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 88 03:32:32 GMT
From: nicmad!brown@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Mr. Video)
Subject: Re: Bring Back Beverly Brigade

chahn@iemisi.UUCP (Chris Hahn) writes:
>   555 Melrose Ave
>   Los Angeles Ca.  90038

Sorry, but the return address on all of the envelopes that I get from
Paramount say:

   Paramount
   5555 Melrose Ave
   Los Angeles, CA 90038-3197

That is a good 50 blocks different.  Either that or Paramount doesn't know
where they live. :-)

ucbvax!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!brown

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 88 13:30:36 GMT
From: fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox)
Subject: Whoopi Goldberg on Star Trek: The Next Generation

I saw this this morning in the Columbus Dispatch:

Whoopi Goldberg will be joining the crew of the New Enterprise starting
this season.  She will play a lounge stewardess or hostess.  The lounge
will be where the regulars often go to relax after a hard day's work.  The
role will be recurring but probably not a "regular".  The article mentioned
the reason for adding Ms. Goldberg is to add some different flavour to the
show (i.e. add some comedy).  The name of the lounge is the "Ten-forward"
lounge.  The article did not include any dates of when she would be on the
show.

Richard Fox
Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence Research
The Ohio State University

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 12:23:37 GMT
From: keith@microvax-a.computer-science.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Whoopi Goldberg (and a lack of IDIC)

bartlett@Jessica.stanford.edu (Terry Bartlett) writes:
> As revealed on "Entertainment Tonight", Whoopi Goldberg has signed to
> play the recurring role of an alien bartender in "Star Trek: The Next
> Generation".

I wonder if Federation peoples have developed immunity to Medusans yet...
If so, Whoopi would be excellent for the part of a Medusan bar-person.

> Hopefully it won't be the cantina scene from "Star Wars" all over again.

Personally, I'd enjoy it. It's about time we saw some Andorians,
Tellarites, Hortans (from Janus IV) etc.. even Vulcans, all playing real
parts instead of walk-on-walk-off parts. What about the transparent
creature to whom Saavik introduced herself (Fred, I believe it was called)
in the novel The Search for Spock. I'm sure Special Effects now has the
technology. Doesn't G.R. take IDIC seriously anymore?

Keith Halewood
Janet:     KEITH@UK.AC.LIV.CS.MVA
Internet:  KEITH%MVA.CS.LIV.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
UUCP(Ugh): {wherever}!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!keith

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 22:43:10 GMT
From: griffith@scheme.uucp (Jim "The Big Dweeb" Griffith)
Subject: Re: Whoopi Goldberg (and a lack of IDIC)

keith@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk writes:
>Personally, I'd enjoy it. It's about time we saw some Andorians,
>Tellarites, Hortans (from Janus IV) etc.. even Vulcans, all playing real
>parts instead of walk-on-walk-off parts. What about the transparent
>creature to whom Saavik introduced herself (Fred, I believe it was called)
>in the novel The Search for Spock. I'm sure Special Effects now has the
>technology. Doesn't G.R. take IDIC seriously anymore?

I have to agree here.  First, it's "Hortas", not "Hortans".  I am a big fan
of Diane Duane's work.  Her best one is, in my opinion, "My Enemy, My
Ally".  What I like best about her work is her ability to add new elements
while maintaining a "Star Trek" atmosphere.  The best example of this is
Ensign/Lieutenant Naraht, a Horta, and (apparently) Diane's favorite Pan
Pizza (extra sausage).  He is presented as a believable character.  The
same goes for the Sulamids, the Denebians, and the other assorted
non-humanoid characters she introduces.

The point here is that she has shown that you can introduce non-humanoids
without drawing from the "Star Trek-ness" of what you are writing.  The
problem is that this applies to books.  Whether or not it can be
successfully applied to television is a good question.  I suspect the
inclination of TV folk would be to emphasize alien looks over alien
personalities, however.

There has been a lot of discussion over whether or not this whole "bar" set
and Whoopi will work out.  However, I'd like to point out that there has
been similar discussions over virtually every aspect of the new series,
from Wesley to the "headless duck" to those monkey-boys, the Ferengi.  I
have yet to see any questionable aspect that has *not* been presented in a
satisfactory manner.  Wesley has calmed down, the Ferengi have been
severely de-emphasized, and Gene has, in general, been very receptive to
fans' opinions.  He *created* the whole Star Trek universe to begin with.
My inclination is to trust that he'll do the right thing, regardless of
what *might* be done.

'Nuff said.  

Jim Griffith
...!ucbvax!scam!griffith

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 04:21:02 GMT
From: hpcea!hpda!sp7040!obie!wsccs!val@hplabs.hp.com (Val Kartchner)
Subject: Re: Whoopi Goldberg on Star Trek: The Next Generation

fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox) writes:
> I saw this this morning in the Columbus Dispatch:
> Whoopi Goldberg will be joining the crew of the New Enterprise starting
> this season.  She will play a lounge stewardess or hostess.  The lounge
> will be where the regulars often go to relax after a hard day's work.
     <Stuff deleted>

Whoopi Goldberg as an alien bartender?  What other show do we know of that
had a black bartender, a bald captain, a doctor who has been married but
now isn't, and the teenage child of a crew member running around the ship?
I will admit though that other show did last longer than ST:TOS did on NBC.

Val Kartchner
UT@WSC
!ihnp4!utah-cs!utah-gr!uplherc!sp7040!obie!val

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 21:12:06 GMT
From: thalan@ihlpf.att.com (Jones)
Subject: Re: Starfleet Academy

karen@weitek.COM (Karen L. Black) writes:
> If we can assume that Starfleet's academy is based on the military
> academies of today, then there is good reason why students would be sent
> there, rather than learn by correspondence.
>
> The academy is more than lessons.  It is also a society of cadets and
> officers, which has its own rites and initiations.  When Wesley goes off
> to the academy (hold that thought!), he will be just another new student.
> He'll have to prove himself by the standards used at the academy.  In
> addition, belonging to the society gives one a feeling of responsibilty
> and purpose, necessary ambitions for an officer.
>
> Wesley will also learn how to be an officer -- the mores and customs that
> make a officer something other than Joe-off-the-street.

AMEN!  Let the "boy" learn how to be an adult and maybe we won't hear any
more ridiculus remarks from Wesley in regards to how "adults" act.  Like in
"The Battle" where Wesley thinks he should have gotten a thank you or pat
on the back from his mother and Troi for the valuable information he
learned and passed on.  Let's be real!  If he wants to become an officer
then every time he actually helps out he shouldn't expect to be
congratulated for doing his job.  Only when he does (or anyone else for
that matter) an extraordinary feat, should be the time when praise is
given.

Gwendolyn B. Jones
IHP 1F-346
200 Park Plaza
P.O. Box 3050
Naperville, Il. 60566
(312) 416-4934

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 19:51:19 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: New Twilight Zone

     I have an unusual request for people in net.land.  I am looking for a
list of episodes for the second season of the new Twilight Zone.  I taped
all of the first season, but gave up on the second one after seeing how
badly emasculated it was.  I know that it jumped back to half an hour
midway through the second season.  Anyway, now that it's back the rabid
completist in me would like a list.  If anybody out there has such a list
and could send it to me I would appreciate it immensely.  Thanks in
advance.

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 88 10:34:11 GMT
From: keith@microvax-a.computer-science.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: *Danger* Doctor Who imminent!!

*** Danger ***

Dr. Who (Sylvester McCoy) returns for another dead horse flogging next
Wednesday and I don't look forward to seeing yet more drivel from John
Nathan Turner. As expected, the Daleks have been brought out of retirement
AND, according to a trailer aired last night, Omega also does some evil
doings.

We have been spared from Bonnie-Screaming-Tonsils-Langford; she has been
replaced by someone called Ace! Ugh!

Anyway, here's the blurb from the BBC:

Doctor Who
"Remembrance of the Daleks" by Ben Aaronovitch (who?)

London, 25 years ago: The Doctor has returned to conclude some unfinished
business. Unfortunately, some old acquaintances are waiting for him. Ace
doesn't like the music in 1963. Wait until she meets the old
acquaintances...

Will the viewers survive? Tune in next week, when it's all over.

Keith Halewood
Janet:     KEITH@UK.AC.LIV.CS.MVA
Internet:  KEITH%MVA.CS.LIV.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
UUCP(Ugh): {wherever}!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!keith   

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 88 11:17:27 GMT
From: keith@microvax-a.computer-science.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Doctor Who Part 1 - quick report

Doctor Who part 1 was shown last night on BBC 1. It spited my expectations
by being rather good. McCoy's acting has improved greatly and this episode
had an atmosphere that I haven't felt since watching Jon Pertwee in The
Daemons - well - perhaps not that good.

Down points:

Davros is back. He's been EXTERMINATED, shot, deflated, frozen, etc. and
like a bad smell, keeps on coming back.  Pamela Salem (one of the
scientists) also plays a shady, smarmy wine-bar manager in Eastenders on
Tuesdays and Thursdays - same time slot.  She used the word "Dalek" without
knowing anything about them - the Doctor left in a hurry before explaining
just what they'd blown up.

Up points:

The Daleks can now conquer the Universe without avoiding stairs and very
steep inclines - they have some kind of red glowing levitation system that
is quite effective.

The view of earth and a spaceship at the beginning have lost the BBC's
special effects trade mark - they don't have 'background bubbles' created
by cheap CSO systems.

I'm actually looking forward to part 2. 

Keith Halewood
Janet:     KEITH@UK.AC.LIV.CS.MVA
Internet:  KEITH%MVA.CS.LIV.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
UUCP(Ugh): {wherever}!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!keith   

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 15:17:48 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: *Danger* Doctor Who imminent!!

keith@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk writes:
> Dr. Who (Sylvester McCoy) returns for another dead horse flogging next
> Wednesday and I don't look forward to seeing yet more drivel from John
> Nathan Turner. As expected, the Daleks have been brought out of
> retirement

According to a preview I read somewhere, the final story in this series
will feature the Doctor's other favourite opponents. The Cybermen are back.
 
Incidentally, who knows the full list of colour schemes for Daleks? The
most militant race in the universe, and they've never heard of camouflage!

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 11:53:44 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who Part 1 - quick report

WARNING... Minor spoilers.

keith@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk writes:
>Doctor Who part 1 was shown last night on BBC 1. It spited my expectations
>by being rather good. McCoy's acting has improved greatly .....

Agreed, he is becoming one of the better recent doctors.

>Down points:
>
>Davros is back.

Well, we didn't actually hear him named. It is just someone like him
sitting in the bottom half of a Dalek.

>She used the word "Dalek" without knowing anything about them - the Doctor
>left in a hurry before explaining just what they'd blown up.

Script blunder, or is there more to her than is obvious at the moment.
We'll see... but I suspect the first.

>The Daleks can now conquer the Universe without avoiding stairs and very
>steep inclines -

Yes, it is true, Daleks can now climb stairs, and they have better weapons.
The Universe is doomed I tell you, doooomed...

Bob

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 12 Oct 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 297

Today's Topics:

		     Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Rice &
                             Walters & Wells (2 msgs) &
                             Recommendations (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 88 00:56:59 GMT
From: John_-_DeBert@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Heaven Cent - Phaze - Incarnation: Anthony

For those who have asked and those who do not yet know about it:

Piers Anthony's book, "Robot Adept," was recently released in paper.  It
seems that B. Daltons has gotten first dibs on distribution.  (I seem to
recall a bit of a flap over a premature release.)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 18:25:07 GMT
From: survey@e.ms.uky.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Anthony (was Re: Eddings)

CXT105@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>One noticeable exception is the Tarot series, which starts out at bad and
>descends rapidly. 

   Note: Tarot was not a series.  It was one book that was butchered and
published as three books.  Like you, I *hated* the first book... until I
had a chance to read the rest of the story.  Read as one book I found it to
be very good, among the best work of his that I've read.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 03:43:23 GMT
From: samdixon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam E Dixon III)
Subject: _Queen of the Damned_
 
I just finished reading Anne Rice's new book, -The Queen of the Damned-.  I
have a few thoughts on it that I would like to talk about, but no Spoilers.

 First, let me say I have been anxiously awaiting this book since the
instant I finished The Vampire Lestat, late in '85.  That was one of my
favorite novels ever, and though I liked Interview With the Vampire, I
don't think that it is on the same level as Lestat.  And while I felt the
same pleasure while reading this book, as it progressed I was less and less
satisfied.  For me, the book climaxed about half way through, and the
actual resolution of the plot was secondary.

The problem is partly the way the story is told.  Lestat narrates the
Prologue, and apologizes for the necessity of leaving the first person,
because there are too many characters involved whose stories he only
learned after the fact, and the only means of a chronological storyline is
to divide up the narrative.

This is good and bad. I admit that one of the best things about the other
novels was the first person narration.  Still, we get to meet some
fascinating characters, which leads me to my major complaint.  Two of these
other characters it is given are not vampires.  (Some of the others remain
in doubt) The first of these is the Boy from Interview, who (SPOILER for
INTERVIEW) was refused Immortality by Louis at the end of the book, and
whose last action seemed to be a search for another vampire to ask the same
boon.  Here he is again, still human. And it seems that the most important
thing about his life is that he is NOT a vampire! Still, Rice set up this
plotline twelve years ago, so I won't pick on this part.
   The other human is named Jesse.  And (YAY!) she is not a vampire.  And
she's interesting. She is extraordinary in other ways, possibly connected
to vampiric events, but is wonderfully human.  We get a whole history for
Jesse, which seems to have nothing to do with the other characters that
have figured in the series.  She could have made a wonderful protagonist in
her own book, without any of the vampire business. Then she suddenly
(perhaps not sudden, or unexpected, but I can't explain without going into
the book) gets this uncontrollable desire to see Lestat.  Granted this is
mainly a gimmick to get her to the concert, and yes, there are all sorts of
explanations, but my anger is that Rice simply returns to her old formula:
Ordinary humans are just meat, and should be eaten or pitied, or both, and
only as a vampire can one achieve one's full potential.  Poor Jesse.  If
only she had been a vampire, she would have avoided a lot of pain. Also,
all the vampires have to be so protective of her, but of course, it isn't
enough.  The vampires whine about how horrible their state is, but as
glamourously as Rice paints their lives, why would any sane being want to
be anything OTHER than a vampire?

I don't want anyone to think that I'm not recommending the book.  I DID
enjoy reading.  It is only on reflection that I'm not satisfied.  At the
end it says that the chronicles of the vampires will continue.  Since
(thank goodness) we are not left with a cliffhanger ending, one hopes that
somehow Anne Rice can insert something new into the vampire situation,
because otherwise, no matter how prettily written, one begins to tire of
the day-to-day feeding of the vampire.  How many initiations and hunts can
we endure?  The spectacle of this book was grand, which saved it, but where
can it go from here?

Sam    

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 88 16:02:37 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Hugh Walters

This last weekend I had the opportunity to visit the library I used to
borrow these books from, so I went in and looked up Hugh Walters' name in
the index. Here is the full (correct) list of titles.  I miss-remembered a
couple of titles.

BLAST OFF AT WOOMERA (First sub-orbital flight)
OPERATION COLUMBUS. (about first trip round the Moon )
MOON BASE ONE (first moon landing racing the Russians.)
EXPEDITION VENUS
DESTINATION MARS (about first trip to Mars)
MISSION TO MERCURY
TERROR BY SATELLITE (about madman on space station threatening the Earth)
JOURNEY TO JUPITER
SPACESHIP TO SATURN
THE MOHOLE MYSTERY
FIRST ENCOUNTER? (about first encounter with aliens while on the way to 
                  Uranus)
NEARLY NEPTUNE
PASSAGE TO PLUTO

Once the author ran out of planets to visit, he broadened the scope of the
series and produced the following.

THE CAVES OF DRACH
BLUE AURA
DARK TRIANGLE
FIRST FAMILY ON THE MOON
MURDER ON MARS
LAST DISASTER
SCHOOL ON THE MOON
TONY HALE SPACE DETECTIVE
P-K: PHOTOKINESIS

The last of these books seems to have been published in 1986.

The second part of the above list is not in any particular order, and there
are probably titles missing from the list.

I have no idea what any of the books in the second list are about, except
that one of them involves one of the four characters from the first list,
Tony Hale.

I am going to have to put in a special request to my local library I think.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 17:29:47 GMT
From: m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Re: WAR OF THE WORLDS

Steven C Salaris tries to answer questions posed by Omar Barsimantov
concerning the movie, "War of the Worlds", by referring to Wells' book by
the same name.  This is pre- posterous because the only thing the two have
in common is the title.

Wells' book was a condemnation of British jingoism and imperialism that had
been taking place throughout Queen Victoria's reign.  The Martians launch
ten cylinders and, lo and behold, they all land in England!  If one were to
replace all occurrences of "England" and "Britain" in Wells' book with
"Africa" or "Asia" and then replaced all occurrences of "Martians" with
"British" then the book becomes clear.  Wells was asking his readers if
they would like it if "superior" beings arrived and imposed their will on
them.  The fact that Wells' "War of the Worlds" is entertaining sf is a
plus.

Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
{gatech, decuac, sun, necntc, ukma, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 16:07:24 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: Re: WAR OF THE WORLDS

m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>Steven C Salaris tries to answer questions posed by Omar Barsimantov
>concerning the movie, "War of the Worlds", by referring to Wells' book by
>the same name.  This is pre- posterous because the only thing the two have
>in common is the title.
>
>Wells' book was a condemnation of British jingoism and imperialism that
>had been taking place throughout Queen Victoria's reign.  The Martians
>launch ten cylinders and, lo and behold, they all land in England!  If one
>were to replace all occurrences of "England" and "Britain" in Wells' book
>with "Africa" or "Asia" and then replaced all occurrences of "Martians"
>with "British" then the book becomes clear.  Wells was asking his readers
>if they would like it if "superior" beings arrived and imposed their will
>on them.  The fact that Wells' "War of the Worlds" is entertaining sf is a
>plus.

     I could really care less about the stupid literary significance of
this classic novel.  I am a physiologist, not an English Literature prof.
I enjoy the book bacause it is a super science fiction story and it was the
very first science fiction book that I ever read.

     I always thought that it would be interesting if there would be a
remake of The War of the Worlds.  It would be great if they did it in the
setting of England in 1898.  With the special effects capabilities of movie
makers today, it would be a cool flick.  Imagine seeing the Martian tripod
war machines looming across the big screen and think of how the sets could
be done.  I was impressed by the movie Young Sherlock Holmes and that is
what got me thinking that it would be neat if they re did WOTW.

    On Wednesday, Oct. 12th, War of the Worlds: The Resurrection will
premiere on the Fox network.  Let's all try to watch it and get a
discussion going on it.

    Well, I must be going. Bye

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 16:07:00 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Literary merit

I've received a couple of letters pointing out various things I missed in
that massive posting on "Works with Literary Merit."  I said at the time
that the list wasn't intended to be complete or comprehensive -- it was
done entirely from memory, and that's dangerous.

Nor do I intend to argue with people about why they think book X should be
on the list instead of book Y.  This is a matter of personal opinion, and
mine is right:*)

However, I left out two entire *areas* that need some redressing.

One is the British "New Wave."  From there, offhand, I'd add:

Aldiss, Brian W.        BAREFOOT IN THE HEAD
                           "The Helliconia Trilogy":
                           HELLICONIA WINTER
                           HELLICONIA SPRING
                           and the other one...
                        REPORT ON PROBABILITY A
                        GALAXIES LIKE GRAINS OF SAND
Ballard, J.G.           THE ATROCITY EXHIBITION 
                        CRASH! 
                        HIGH-RISE 
                        CONCRETE ISLAND
                        EMPIRE OF THE SUN

Moorcock, Michael       "The Cornelius Chronicles"
                           THE FINAL PROGRAMME
                           THE ENGLISH ASSASSIN
                           A CURE FOR CANCER
                           THE CONDITION OF MUZAK
                           THE ADVENTURES OF CATHERINE CORNELIUS...
                           THE ALCHEMIST'S QUESTION
                           THE LIVES AND TIMES OF JERRY CORNELIUS
                           THE ENTROPY TANGO
                           THE DISTANT SUNS
                           THE NATURE OF THE CATASTROPHE
                           THE GREAT ROCK'N'ROLL SWINDLE
                        BYZANTIUM ENDURES
                        THE WAR-HOUND AND THE WORD'S PAIN
                        GLORIANA

I also managed to almost-entirely leave out fantasy.

Bull, Emma              THE WAR FOR THE OAKS

Eddison, E.R.R.         THE WORM OUROBOROS
                        MISTRESS OF MISTRESSES
                        THE MEZENTIAN GATE
                        A FISH DINNER IN MEMISON

Lewis, C.S.             "The Chronicles of Narnia":
                           THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE
                           PRINCE CASPIAN
                           THE VOYAGE OF THE _DAWN_TREADER_
                           THE SILVER CHAIR
                           THE HORSE AND HIS BOY
                           THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW
                           THE LAST BATTLE
                        THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS
                        TILL WE HAVE FACES

Peake, Mervyn           MR. PYE
                        "The Gormenghast Trilogy":
                           TITUS GROAN
                           GORMENGHAST
                           TITUS ALONE

Tolkien, J.R.R.         THE SILMARILLION
                        LEAF BY NIGGLE
                        "The Lord of the Rings":
                           THE HOBBIT
                           THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING
                           THE TWO TOWERS
                           THE RETURN OF THE KING

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 15:54:14 GMT
From: CXT105@psuvm.bitnet (Merlin of Chaos)
Subject: Re: Literary merit

Literary merit, huh.  Well, let's see...

Reamy, Tom:        San Diego Lightfoon Sue and Other Stories

Vance, Jack:       The Dying Earth
                   Lyoness I and II

The Vance stuff is must-read.  _The Dying Earth_ is a collection of related
stories; there may be others out there, but I don't recall titles.
_Lyonesse_ is about the best recent fantasy there is (God, I don't know how
they manage to sell that stuff I see on the shelves these days....).

The Reamy stuff is a bit obscure.  He was a good friend of Harlan Ellison,
and has a similar feel sometimes.  The book is a collection of short
stories, and once again are must-read for any Ellison fan.  Very powerful
stuff....

Also on the all-time must-read list:


Henderson, Zenna:    Pilgrimage: the story of the People
                     The People: No Different Flesh
                     The Anything Box

_Pilgrimage_ and _No_Different_Flesh_ are the collection of her stories
about the People.  There's been some stuff written to fill in between
stories, but it isn't very good, so I'd say just ignore it and read the
stories themselves.  These are perhaps the most evocative stories I know
of: I can't read them with dry eyes.  They're NOT necessarily tragic,
though; they're simply great.

_The_Anything_Box_ is also a collection of stories, this time published as
a collection of (unrelated) stories.  There are some real gems here, too...

Unfortunately I can't mention specific short stories, or I'd be typing all
year...  The Usenet people would probably get mad at me, too.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 88 22:15:00 GMT
From: render@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

Re: recommended sf books.  (Most of these are series rather than big single
books, but they are good regardless.)

I liked C.J. Cherryh's CHANUR books.  There are four in the series, and
they tie into some of Cherryh's other books like MERCHANTER'S LUCK and
DOWNBELOW STATION.  I also recommend the Titan trilogy by John Varley, the
Book of the New Sun tetralogy by Gene Wolfe, and the sequel to ENDER'S
GAME, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD.  Btw, how can you like ENDER'S GAME if you hate
"18 year-old saves the universe" books?  That's the basic plot, except the
protagonist is 14(?) instead of 18.  (This is half-facetious, since I think
EG and SFTD are the two best sf books I have read in the last 10 years).

Hal Render
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
render@a.cs.uiuc.edu           (ARPA)
{seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render (USENET)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 03:37:08 GMT
From: dgp@ncsc1.AT&T.NCSC (Dennis Pelton CSM Contractor x8876)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> I have so little time for novels now (BIG :-{), that every one I read
> should be good!  I would like book recommendations from anybody out
> there.

Any Varley is good, _Titan/Wizard/Demon_ probably the best.  Also,
Zelazny--don't start the _Nine Princes_ series unless you really like
Fantasy, but take a look at _Lord of Light_, in My Humble Opinion one of
the best books written (quick! get the flame retardant foam!).

...!att!ncsc1!dgp

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 20:29:21 GMT
From: lakart!dg@xait.xerox.com (David Goodenough)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> I have so little time for novels now (BIG :-{), that every one I read
> should be good!  I would like book recommendations from anybody out
> there.

Another suggestion for interesting (fairly light) reading is the "Emprise"
"Enigma" "Empery" books (AKA the Trigon Disunity) by Michael P
Kube-McDowell.  By and large OK, althouth the end of the last gets a bit
messianic. It also has a rather interesting start, and a (I thought) unique
way of dealing with supra light speed travel.

David Goodenough
dg@lakart.UUCP
...!harvard!xait!lakart!dg
dg%lakart@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 12 Oct 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 298

Today's Topics:

			 Films - Aliens (9 msgs) &
                                 Alien Nation (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 15:23:04 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Alien/Aliens

pmancini@LYNX.NORTHEASTERN.EDU writes:
>I will believe that the aliens were at least as intelligent as otter and
>cats, but not more so until I see some sort of cultural activities or non-
>survival efforts.  I know of no animal in the animal kingdom besides man
>that is into art.

Reply 1: Since when is art a sign of intelligence? To avoid some flames,
I'll let you think of your own least favourite rock group. :-) :-)

Reply 2: Ever heard of the bower bird? The male builds a "bower",
consisting of an archway of grass and other plant material, decorated with
flowers, shiny paper, and anything else he can find. It isn't the nest;
that gets built later.

Regarding someone else's point about how Newt is unharmed. Any guesses as
to what happens when Newt reaches Earth? Aliens III, perhaps?

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 23:29:37 GMT
From: jkiparsk@csli.stanford.edu (Jonathan Kiparsky)
Subject: Re: Intelligence of Aliens in _Aliens_

federico@actisb.UUCP (Federico Heinz) writes:
>Time: At some point in "Aliens", Terra looses contact with the colonizers.
>Ok, let's assume they didn't use radio but something much faster and
>not-yet-dreamt-of (although that would pose the question of why they
>didn't report the alien presence to Terra after the first event), so that
>the message didn't need years to come through. The planet didn't seem to
>be that close (the marines had to be hibernated, suggesting a somewhat
>long journey)... in my opinion, all the evidence

The journey was two weeks. (during the wake-up scene before they go down to
LB47 or whatever, Sarge says something about "You've st had two weeks'
sleep" Also, the point at which they lost caontact is not necesarily the
point where everyone was destroyed. I figured they had some sort of battle
in the control room, or wherever they keep the communications setup. Earth
gets the Marines off, the colonists get their asses kicked in, and the
Marines land a week later. The colonist that exploded at them was probably
picked up after the rest.  

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 88 19:25:42 GMT
From: ins_bjjb@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jared J Brennan)
Subject: Re: Alien/Aliens

malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>It has always seemed to me that the stomach-burst "Space Jockey" seen in
>_Alien_ looked a LOT like the Aliens themselves -- about the same size,
>same elongated skull, same insectoid features, etc.  What if the Aliens
>[discussion of possible new life-cycle deleted]

   Humbug!  The spacecraft was broadcasting a WARNING not to come near.  If
that mess was a natural part of the life-cycle, there would not be a
warning beacon.

   The reason why the two alien types look similar is that they were both
designed by H.R. Giger, whose art is _very_ distinctive.  Pretend the Space
Jockey is a Smurf, and you'll be much happier.

Jared J. Brennan
BITNET: INS_BJJB@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_bjjb%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_bjjb

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 01:02:23 GMT
From: marco@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Peter Dimarco)
Subject: More ALIENS

   As a very infrequent reader of sf-lovers, I just stumbled upon this
dialog about _Alien/s_.  My apologies if some of these points were already
made.  Also, don't expect well-reasoned arguments in here...

lynx.northeastern.edu!pmancini writes:
[ comments about animal intelligence deleted ]
>Also in my humble opinion I believe that indeed the aliens were bio-
>weapons.  My reasons are this:

   I agree 100%.  My "reasons" will follow shortly.

>1) They have a very mechanical look.  Perhaps this is the fault of the FX
>people. This isn't very convincing in and of itself, but it does lend
>itself given the following reasons.

   To be honest, the reason why the aliens look as they do is because H. R.
Giger did the design for the original _Alien_ creature.  The derelict alien
ship and dead pilot also fit into his art style (which is a bit different
from, say, Patrick Nagel's :-) )
   This, of course, is not an explanation that fits with the "Alien/s"
universe.  How about this:
   The technology of the pilot's species was exclusively biotech/nanotech.
This seems reasonable because 1) the ship looked as if had been grown, and
2) the only apparent "tools" on board were our friendly neighborhood
military biots.

 [ comments about alien life span deleted ]
 
>3) The gross power of the creatures is very unnatural, and they are very
>belligerent.  Locusts are more friendly.  Something like this would eat
>its food chain to oblivion.  Ah, those universal checks and balances, eh?

   Given a vicious enough environment, these aliens might be quite
appropriate (imagine what it would be like if they lived on the same planet
as the creature from John Carpenter's _The Thing_...)  But I still agree
that they are unnatural for the following reason: they are able to adapt
themselves to the forms of creatures with radically different biochemistry.
It's obvious that the original face-hugger is quite different from an adult
warrior.  To adopt the form of a humanoid host requires some
"understanding" of that host.  By this, I mean that the chest-burster
parasite must be able to determine something about its host from the host
tissue surrounding it.
   I think it's reasonable to postulate an alien biosphere where parasites
could have evolved with the capability to use/analyze the genetic material
of their hosts.  But, the last time I checked, natural selection isn't in
the business of providing for contingencies that have never occured...
specifically, I can't see a parasite evolving that has the ability to
extract genetic information from lifeforms with radically different (i.e.
extraterrestrial) biologies.  Only an intelligent designer would have made
creatures like the aliens.  (OK, I admit that it could have been just dumb
luck that the aliens evolved that way,.... naaa).

>5) After renting Alien and Aliens and watching them back to back I firmly
>believe that the 'space jockey' is of another race.  The general
>appearance is that of a giant humanoid, much larger than the mother alien
>and without a 150cm carapace on the head.

   I agree.  My guess is that this thing was the pilot of a troop
ship/arsenal.  Remember that this creature had fallen victim to one of its
passengers: its chest had a familiar (but proportionately larger) hole in
it.

   On the subject of alien intelligence, I'd like to point out that the
aliens were intelligent enough to kill the power to medical.  The fact that
they refused to use human weapons doesn't mean that they lacked the
intelligence... they might have just been acting irrationally.  Their
culture (and the culture of their creators) didn't have any *nonliving*
tools, but I would argue that they did use tools (cf. the organic nature of
the alien ship).  Perhaps they have some sort of predjudice against
inanimate tools.  If it seems hard to believe that the aliens would be so
irrational as to pass up human weapons, look at it this way: their human
opponents were irrational enough to try and kill *each other* during the
fight.  As Ripley said, "You don't see them screwing each other over for a
goddam percentage."
   Well, as long as I'm on a roll, I'd like to bring up another point of
speculation: the reaction of Ash and Bishop to the details of the aliens'
biology.  Ash admitted (sort of) that the aliens had potential in the
bio-warfare market, but there's something about the reverence that the
robots held for the aliens... There are several scenes where the robots
express a deep fascination for the aliens' "perfection."  I can't help
wondering (watch out folks, this is gonna be silly) if the robots admire
the aliens because they see the aliens as machines superior to themselves.

   Ok, I'll be quiet now.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 16:04:00 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: Alien(s)

Could the last person "chest-burst" have been Newt's mother?  Maybe she
passed the survival skills on to Newt; and if the whole point of the film
was to portray Weaver's character as a surrogate mother, then Weaver's
fears of chest-bursting would parallel the real fate of Newt's mother as
seen by the audience.

Hal

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 16:53:01 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Ditch the lift, okay?

>1) Using the elevator.  Many people have stated that they believe even if
>the Queen were of animal intelligence she could learn to use the elevator.
>...  (Just a side note.  I still don't think that an animal could ever do
>this, but that is just my opinion)

An aquaintance used to work at Stanford U. testng chimpanzees. One test
involved locking a chimp inside a room with no windows but with a two way
mirror so the researchers can look into the room without the chimps knowing
it. The experiment involved pushing buttons. If the wrong one was pushed,
the room went dark as a punishment.

The experiment went fine until a certain chimp went in. At first, things
went as expected. Then the room went dark and stayed dark. The scientists
at first thought there was an equipment failure and ran around frantically
trying to find what was wrong. Then one of them thought to look into the
mirror to see if the chimp was okay. He found the chimp staring back at him
in the mirror.

When the room went dark it was possible to see out the mirror into the lab.
The chimp discovered this and deliberately pressed the wrong button and
kept pressing it so he could look outside at the antics of those silly
humans outside.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 07:55:45 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Alien/Aliens

ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes:
>I write:
>>It has always seemed to me that the stomach-burst "Space Jockey" seen in
>>_Alien_ looked a LOT like the Aliens themselves -- about the same size,
>>same elongated skull, same insectoid features, etc.  What if the Aliens
>>[discussion of possible new life-cycle deleted]
>
>   Humbug!  The spacecraft was broadcasting a WARNING not to come near.
>If that mess was a natural part of the life-cycle, there would not be a
>warning beacon.

You weren't listening.  I suggested that the emergence of the nasty version
of the Aliens aboard the (possibly) Alien ship might have been due to a
dietary or hormonal imbalance among the intelligent Alien crew.  That
"mess" might be a RESULT of the "natural" life-cycle of the creatures, but
it got out of their control in this case -- it certainly wouldn't have been
in their plans.

Perhaps (in this scenario) the warning beacon was set by one of the last
remaining members of the crew of intelligent Aliens, as a warning to OTHER
ships of the same race as to what had happened.

>Pretend the Space Jockey is a Smurf, and you'll be much happier.

Given my opinions on the Smurf phenomenon, this is a pleasing image.

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 16:56:36 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: ALIENS III

     There has been some discussion as to what may happen if there is an
ALIEN III released.  Well, I was reading in the newspaper this last summer
or so and I remember coming across an article that stated that ALIEN III
was going into either the writing phase or the production phase.  Whatever
though, it seems that the storyline is that somehow the company finally
gets a hold of some of the aliens and tries to genetically splice them with
human genes.  I don't know why they want to do this, unless it is to make
bioweapons.  Anyways, that is how I remember reading the article.  I could
be wrong and who knows, by now the storyline may have changed several
times. Bye!


 

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 22:53:47 GMT
From: novavax!maddoxt@bikini.cis.ufl.edu (Thomas Maddox)
Subject: Re: ALIENS III

salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris) writes:
>     There has been some discussion as to what may happen if there is an
>ALIEN III released . . .  I remember coming across an article that stated
>that ALIEN III was going into either the writing phase or the production
>phase.  Whatever though, it seems that the storyline is that somehow the
>company finally gets a hold of some of the aliens and tries to genetically
>splice them with human genes.

   Your summary pretty accurately reflects the current (though not at all
stable or final) state of the plot/script as it was described to me some
months ago.  Soon after, the writers' strike put production of the film on
hold.  Also, as I understand it, a director has not yet been signed, so
don't look for production to begin immediately.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 00:46:34 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: ALIEN NATION

			       ALIEN NATION
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  The biggest science fiction film of the
     year!  (What a feeble year!)  There is not a whole lot of
     science fiction in this retread of the mismatched-partners
     police film.  There is not even much in the way of new twists
     from the science fiction premise.  Lots of overly familiar
     mindless action to fill out the length to that of a feature
     film.  Rating: -1.

     These days Hollywood science fiction films really need a high budget.
And they need imagination.  Science fiction films need a budget because the
cost of automobile parts has soared.  Car chases are not exciting unless
lots of cars get smashed up, lots of shattered windshields get sprinkled
over the street, and lots of great makeup effects of people smashed up in
the cars.  That costs money.  Then filmmakers need imagination to design
new kinds of guns that the audience has not seen before.  Gunfights with
the same old sorts of guns get boring.  Hollywood has come to see that
science fiction fans want to see new guns in science fiction film
gunfights.  ALIEN NATION is a science fiction film that has the car crashes
and the new guns that fans demand.  And I hope they are happy with what
they got.  I suspect that they will be because ALIEN NATION's basic story
usually does very well whenever it shows up in a film, four or five times a
year.

     As the film starts, the "Newcomers" have been on Earth for three
years.  Newcomers are aliens who arrived on Earth and were accepted much
like, and to the same degree as, many other ethnic groups.  In fact, the
film glosses almost totally over how much more different an alien species
would be from us than a new and even unfamiliar human ethnic group would
be.  There are references to a very different physiology but they sure look
a lot like humans over 95% of their bodies.  In fact, the camera lingers
longingly over the very human-like breasts of the women.  Now, nobody
really knows why human women have globular breasts that even our closest
primate relatives do not.  And compared to these Newcomers, even daffodils
are close relatives, yet the Newcomers' female breasts are similar enough
that our main character gets a thrill fondling them.  Well, it is just that
kind of film.

     But I am digressing.  The aliens live in very human-like ghettos and
have very human-like sorts of problems.  Towards the end of the film we
learn a few more differences, but for most of the film you could easily
substitute "Chinese" for "alien" and could tell the same story.  And
undoubtedly someone has since it is a story that has been done so
frequently in the past.  The story is the "mismatched police partners."
You have seen it before.  It may not have been called 48 HOURS, RED HEAT,
or LETHAL WEAPON.  There are enough of them to turn listing examples into a
party game.  Yes, there is initial friction between the partners; yes, they
come to like each other.  It is all there, complete with bugs gunfights and
car chases.

     James Caan does a reasonable job as Matthew Sykes, whose old partner
is killed by insidious aliens.  Mandy Patinkin is enjoyable to watch as Sam
Francisco--named that by an insensitive immigration official.  But then it
cannot be really hard for them to play parts that have been done so many
times before.  The film also features in cameo roles lots of products you
can buy in your local grocery store.  The alien makeup is all right if
scientifically unlikely, and all other visual effects of the film have
tires and fenders or bullets.

     What was purported to be the year's biggest science fiction film is a
huge disappointment.  Rate it a -1 in the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 00:28:49 GMT
From: uggersho@cs.buffalo.edu (Greg Gershowitz)
Subject: Re: ALIEN NATION

Where in this movie does Sykes fondle Cassandra's breasts?

Uggersho@marvin.cs.buffalo.edu
Uggersho@sybil.cs.buffalo.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 12 Oct 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 299

Today's Topics:

		       Books - SF Magazines (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 02:25:29 GMT
From: caromero@phoenix.princeton.edu (C. Antonio Romero)
Subject: Re: Challenge ->issues in the 1000's

kscott@socrates.ucsf.edu.UUCP (Kevin Scott%Dill) writes:
>By the way, I believe the German Bookazine _Perry_Rhodan_ (translates as
>Furry Rodent :-)) numbers in the thousands.

NO!
Tell me this isn't still running, please... 

I've read some English translations of the first 60 or so of these (no, I
didn't read all 60-- my eating club (read: frat, more or less) at Princeton
had scattered ones from 10 to 60 in English lying around the club
library... I only read about four of them, while procrastinating on my
thesis.  Gave me an incentive to work on the thesis!).

Everything that makes people badmouth sci-fi (and I use the term
deliberately for this material) was squeezed into every biweekly volume...
Absolute dreck.  Just awful.  Feh.  Wow, these were awful.

  This much I gleaned from reading a few volumes in the first 60: Basically
this was cliched scifi about Earth after a nuclear war; a brave and noble
(aren't they all) astronaut named Perry Rhodan, having discovered the
wreckage of an ancient spacecraft on the moon (I think) somehow used the
knowledge he gained there to establish world peace, form a world government
(with himself as head) and, with a team of psychic police, if I remember
rightly, enforce peace and justice throughout the Galaxy or some such.
Among those who helped him were a giant teleporting psychic rodent with an
inane name like Pucky or something; a sometimes-friend sometimes-foe was a
refugee from Atlantis who'd hidden in Earth society for thousands of years,
and went into hibernation just before the war started, and came out to find
the world hadn't been nuked into oblivion after all.  He was the only
survivor of the civilization who left the ship Rhodan found (can't remember
the name of the planet)-- his people were somehow responsible for Atlantis'
civilization. I think they'd been replaced by the robot servants they had
relied on in the past.

Each one tended to take about an hour and a half to read.  Each one had a
main story by one of any number of writers (or equally likely, the
translator wsa the person credited on the cover), a backup or two not
connected to the Rhodan universe, usually by scifi or 'shock-horror' (to
use the editors' own term) writers I'd never heard of, and a letter column
just like a typical comic.  They mostly stood on their own, but
occasionally plot threads would go off in one and be resolved some time
later, in another novel.  Actually, remarkably like a comic in their serial
form, but really BAD.

Mixed in with the text, mostly at the ends of chapters, you'd find
bold-face "coming attractions" blurbs like "

		   500 adventures from now,
	you'll read the excitement of Perry Rhodan and the 
	  <whatever the hell the name of his group were> 
		        as they face...  
		    PLAGUE ON PLANET GRAAX 
	(or insert your favorite melodramatic title here).

I thought they were kidding, or exaggerating, or something.  Nothing could
convince me that people (armies of them, I gathered) actually wrote 500 of
these, much less thousands...

Amazing how some garbage can just stick in one's memory.  Has anyone else
ever read these?  Did they finally stop cranking out the bad translations
from the German?  Anyone remember the publisher?

Antonio Romero
romero@confusion.princeton.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 03:42:36 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: SF Magazines and Omni

maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) writes:
>vanpelt@unisv.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>>Someone else mentioned Omni, as a couple of cyber-punkish stories
>>imbedded in a cow-patty of Weekly World News stuff.  This person was far
>>too kind.  Avoid.
>
>Why?  Because of the pseudo-science or the fiction?  Given that you have
>said you're only familiar with _Analog_, why are you presuming to make
>this judgment?

If it was just the cyber-punkish stories, I'd have reported on it as I
reported on F&SF: Maybe a good 'zine, but not to my taste.

My statement that I was "only" familiar with Analog really should have been
"primarily", I suppose.  I did at one time have a subscription to Omni,
which I did not renew.  I object on principal to supporting a magazine like
the "National Enquirer", "Weekly World News", "Midnight Star", or, yes,
"Omni".  The world is afflicted with far too much of that Your-Cat-May-Be-
An-Extraterrestrial drek already, in my opinion.  I may read the stories if
and when they appear elsewhere.  Omni gets not a cent of my money.  That's
my personal decision, for which I refuse to make any appology whatsoever.

>Stories by Gibson, Sterling, Zelazny, King, Ellison, Swanwick, Burroughs .
>. . that's just off the top of my head.  Are you saying none of these is
>worth reading?

No doubt there are some good stories among these.  That in no way changes
my position with regards to "Omni".  Even if a previously unknown Heinlein
story written in 1952 was discovered and printed in Omni, I'd wait until it
appeared elsewhere.

>>Fantasy & Science Fiction -- much fantasy, little or no SF.  Every now
>>and then I read one, but it isn't to my taste.
>
>Ahh, now I get it.  You're an old-time nuts, bolts, rocket ships and ray
>guns sci-fi fan who has no truck with that literary stuff.

What does "Literary" have to do with the grab-bag of pseudoscience that is
a large part of my reason for finding Omni objectionable?  I've said this
before, and, ignoring the certainty of massive flaming in response I'll say
it again, WHY WHY WHY is the display of even a passing knowledge of science
considered to utterly disqualify a SF writer from "Literariness"? (Note the
hyperbolic nature of the above statement -- not intended to be taken
entirely seriously, but there's at least a grain of truth there.)

Of course, that incredible universe out there is passe', and it is
completely unfashionable to write stories about exploring it, not to
mention not being Politically Correct.  Excuse me if I fail to find Fashion
and Political Correctness to be convincing arguments for Literarity.  I
have a life-long contempt for "Fashion".  I read SF primarily for "Sense of
Wonder", and for me, neither New-Wave steam-of-consciousness drug trips nor
Cyberpolitical Correctness provide that.

And neither does "My Cat is the Reincarnation of Elvis Presley".

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@sv.unisys.com 

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 15:29:23 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: SF mags

Just to add a little to the discussion of SF magazines.

Analog:

I've been a reader of Astounding/Analog for - well, for a very long time -
and a subscriber for 15 years.  It remains my favourite SF mag, for these
reasons

  A "hard science" bias.  This doesn't mean it's all slide rules and
  quantum hyperdrives, but rather that the stories deal more with ideas
  than characters, with rationality rather than irrationality, and are
  usually based on the premise that the universe is comprehensible and that
  plot events should have an explanation, even if they are not explained in
  the text.

  A succession of good, strong editors, who have largely succeeded in
  keeping the truly bad stuff out of the mag.  Agreed, some of what is
  published is boring, but it's all literate.

  A good supporting cast of science articles, book reviews, and editorial
  matter.

Should you happen to view the world a bit like I do, you might try it out.

Aboriginal:

My subscription expires very soon, and I shan't renew it.  The main reason
is that the content betrays the lack of a good, strong editor (see above).
Other reasons are

  Too much of the material suffers from terminal cuteness.

  The non fiction is too conceited and self-congratualtory to be tolerable
  in an established mag, much less a new one.

That's all I'm able to comment on.  However, this weekend I took out a
one-year subscription to IASFM, entirely as a result of the comments in
this newsgroup.  So thanks in advance, friends, for prodding me into
broadening my horizons.

If you care about dead mags, my vote for the best goes to New Worlds in
the Moorcock era.  This was the heart and soul of the (misnamed) 'New Wave'
during its rise and crest, before camp followers like Merrill and Ellison
threw their surfboards on the bandwagon.  If you find any of the New Worlds
collections, buy them.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 20:32:04 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: ANALOG (Was:  Re: SF Magazines and Omni)

vanpelt@unisv.SV.UNISYS.COM (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>maddoxt@novavax.UUCP (Thomas Maddox) writes:
>What does "Literary" have to do with the grab-bag of pseudoscience that is
>a large part of my reason for finding Omni objectionable?  ...WHY WHY WHY
>is the display of even a passing knowledge of science considered to
>utterly disqualify a SF writer from "Literariness"?

The "literary" writers may well be as conversant with science as the ANALOG
writers -- see, for example, H. Ellison.  He's not noted for
nutzenboltz-type ANALOG fiction, but I've never read a more devastating
"the science in this story SUCKS!" type review than Ellison's blast at
OUTLAND.

Those of us who find ANALOG terminally dull do so for two reasons: first,
because they're publishing the same stories they were twenty-five and more
years ago with the technology updated; and second, because the stories
contain no interesting characters.

No: erase and correct.  That's "...the stories contain no characters."
None whatever.

Someone (I think it was Weemba) mentioned recently the "seldon crisis"
method of plotting: I interpret this to mean "plots contrived to force the
character to make one, and only one, choice, which if made otherwise would
make the story grind to a halt."  I add that this method of plotting is a
symptom of writers who have no idea how to motivate a character internally
and must use external pressures to force the characters into a
pre-contrived plot.

An excellent example, by the way, is Larry Niven, who designs characters
precisely to perform whatever actions are necessary to make his stories go
the way he wants them to.  Once upon a time, I thought he had created an
interesting and complex character, named Louis Wu; his actions in RINGWORLD
seemed to flow organically from what we had seen and/or been told Louis Wu
was.  But then he wrote RINGWORLD ENGINEERS and proved, once and for all,
that he had no idea what made his own characters tick, by putting another
character with the same name into the sequel, ignoring all we had come to
know about "Louis Wu" in the first book, and generally playing havoc with
the character so he'd behave the way Niven wanted in a sequel.  The Louis
Wu of RE is not, and can not be, the same person as the Louis Wu of
RINGWORLD; Niven, however, disdains such niceties as consistent
characterization in favor of balls-out P!L!O!T! and showing us the wonders
his mind has invented.

Another example of Niven-as-archtypical-ANALOG-writer is the ending of
RINGWORLD ENGINEERS.  Anyone who's really worried about a spoiler for a ten
year old book can hit "n" right *now*...

Niven's plot winds up with the toasting of some astronomical number of
human and/or humanoid beings and the introduction of various radiation
sicknesses, melanomas, and other fun stuff into the personal biology of a
similarly incomprehensible number of others.

And the only reaction of the characters is "Oh, gee, a lot of people died."

And the only reaction of the reader is "Oh, gee, a lot of people died."
Niven is congenitally incapable of making the reader *FEEL* the
significance of the actions of his characters.

His science is half-assed at best, too, but that's another argument.

Niven is an example, used because he's well-known and widely-read, but he's
just an example and far, far, *F*A*R* from the worst.  In any given issue
of ANALOG, a Niven story would be a relief; he at least knows how to plot.
Take an ANALOG issue with six stories and at least five will fall into one
of two basic "plot skeletons," those same two skeletons repeated over and
over for year after year.  As I said, only the technology changes -- and
fiction isn't about technology.  It's about people.

SCIENCE fiction is about people-and-technology, how technology affects
people on every level.

ANALOG fiction is about technology and sometimes how people can screw up
the wonderful machines.

If you want to read about technology why don't you read IEEE journal?

>Of course, that incredible universe out there is passe', and it is
>completely unfashionable to write stories about exploring it,

Bah.  Humbug.

What's not only unfashionable but simply dull is rewriting the *same*
goddam stories about exploring it.  What really hurts about ANALOG is...its
complete *lack* of imagination.

>Excuse me if I fail to find Fashion and Political Correctness to be
>convincing arguments for Literarity.

No excuse needed; I don't know anybody who'd find them to be so.  On the
other hand, words like "Literarity" used other than for humorous impact
might be convincing arguments against a claim to literacy.

What is "literary" is intelligent and creative use of language to create
plausible and interesting characters in revealing situations.  What is not
"literary" is clumsy and cliched use of language to create stereotyped and
unlikely characters in hackneyed situations.

>I have a life-long contempt for "Fashion".  

I have a plan to improve the human race in a single generation.

Let's make breathing fashionable one season, and taking cyanide fashionable
the next.

That way we'll get rid of both the cretins who will do anything that's
fashionable, and the cretins who won't do anything that's fashionable.

Mike, once upon a time I, too, held "fashion" in contempt; then I grew up.
"Fashion" is a silly and ephemeral thing, and to hold it in contempt is to
be ruled by it every bit as much as those who worship it.

You have confused "fashion" and "style."  Style is something timeless
and/or personal, something which makes a statement rather than blending in
with the crowd.  ANALOG fiction is fashionable.  The fiction of (say) Greg
Benford or Harlan Ellison or J.G.Ballard or, yes, Tom Maddox has *style*.

>I read SF primarily for "Sense of Wonder", and for me, neither New-Wave
>steam-of-consciousness drug trips nor Cyberpolitical Correctness provide
>that.

Then you have shut your own mind to many forms of wonder.  Cosmic vastness
is not the only kind of wonder, you know...

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 21:02:42 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: SF mags

>PS: if you care about dead mags, my vote for the best goes to New Worlds
>in the Moorcock era.

New Worlds was an interesting magazine, but my favorite Dead Magazine has
to be Vertex. I still remember the issue that had Ursula K. LeGuin on the
cover, smoking a pipe during her interview. It was full of lots of
different ideas (both in the fiction and in the kinds of things the
magazine was willing to try out) and an attitude of experimentation.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 88 02:29:40 GMT
From: rbr4@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Roland Roberts)
Subject: ANALOG is dull?

Okay admittedly, there are some dull stories --- there are even some dull
issues.  I've been getting Analog for 11 years now and still won't give it
up.  I also can't afford to add others to my mailing list (besides, I've
got too much to read already...).

But was Vernor Vinge's "Marooned in Real-Time" dull?  How about Orson Scott
Card's "Ender's Game" (I found the book duller than the novella).  Surely
your "dull" reference was hyperbole.

Roland Roberts
Nuclear Research Structure Lab
rbr4@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
roberts@uornsrl.bitnet (preferred)

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 12 Oct 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 300

Today's Topics:

	   Miscellaneous - SF on Radio & Conventions (5 msgs) &
                           Information Wanted & SF Predictions (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Oct 88 11:24 CDT
From: Jerry Stearns <CORDWAINER@umnacvx.bitnet>
Subject: WAR OF THE WORLDS Radio

   A while back I posted mention of the WAR OF THE WORLDS 50th anniversary
radio broadcast.  The new production is produced and directed by David
Ossman, formerly of the Firesign Theater.  It stars Jason Robards as
Professor Pierson, and includes Steve Allen and Douglas Edwards as newsmen
involved in the story.  Much of the original script has been left intact,
though the sound ambiance has been updated, and the technical quality is,
of course, outstanding.  Philip Proctor, also of the Firesign Theater,
plays one of the minor characters.  I have heard a portion of the program,
and I think you'll find it to be excellent.
   It is to be broadcast precisely 50 years after the first Orson Welles
version - October 30, 1988, at 8:00 PM, from National Public Radio.
Locally, in Minneapolis, this means it will be on KSJN-AM, which means it
won't be in stereo.  I hope you fair better in your area.

   Also of interest to SF readers, there is a new Audio SF Magazine being
published.  It's called the CENTAURI EXPRESS, and is published by Henry
Howard out of Atlanta, GA.  The first two issues are out, and a
subscription is available.  If anyone is interested, I can post more info
about this magazine, like how to subscribe and how much.  I have not had
time to listen to the two issues I have, so I am not yet able to give you a
review.  I have it at home, so I can't remember the address either.
   As a review of Audio SF, though, I do have one recommendation.  Cygnus
III, Inc., in St. Louis, has a tape series out titled, THE SECRET OF
DOMINION.  My opinion is: DON'T BOTHER!  It is really awful - the story is
boring, strongly derivative of Star Wars, unrelentingly serious, the
episodes do not seem to add up to be a whole story, and the ending is a
really cheap cop out.  Characters are wooden (as in OAK), and special
effects are unimaginative, though technically adequate.  Listen to RUBY and
RUBY 2 instead.

Jerry Stearns
Academic Computing Services & Systems
University of Minnesota
(612) 625-1543 .AT&T
CORDWAINer@UMNACVX.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 88 18:42:57 GMT
From: lakesys!wabbit@csd1.milw.wisc.edu (Wabbit)
Subject: SF Convention

	      UNART Presents a New, Unconventional Relaxacon!
				 CONGENIAL
			  A relaxacon to be held
			    March 17 - 19, 1989
		       at the Sheraton Racine Hotel

			    Our Guests Include:

			  Mercedes (Misty) Lackey
			 Filker Extrordinaire and
		     Author of 'Arrows of the Queen',
		   'Arrow's Flight', and 'Arrow's Fall'
		    as our Professional Guest of Honor

			 Reed Waller & Kate Worley
		    Creators of 'Omaha, the Cat Dancer'
		       as of Artist Guests of Honor

				Andy Hooper
		  Editor of 'Take Your Fanac Everywhere'
			 as our Fan Guest of Honor

Convenient Transport

Shuttle Service from O'Hare (Chicago), Milwaukee's Mitchell Field and the
Milwaukee Amtrak Terminal directly to the hotel.

Filking...Art Show...Hucksters...Videos...Fan Room...Silly Bathing Suit
Contest...Concerts

For More Information, write to:

CONGENIAL
P.O. Box 129
Wilmette, IL 60091

Timothy Haas
2104 W. Juneau Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53233
(414) 344-6988
INET:lakesys!wabbit@uwmcsd1.milw.wisc.edu
{...rutgers,ames,ucbvax}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!wabbit

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 16:03:41 GMT
From: A410JACQ@hasara11.bitnet (Jacqueline Cote)
Subject: WorldCon 1990 update

Expires: Wed, 30 Nov 88 00:00:00 -0200

ConFiction  (WORLDCON 1990)  :   48th World SF Convention
The Hague, The Netherlands   :   23-27 August 1990
Place                        :   Congress Centre, the Hague, The Netherlands

PROGRAM:

GUESTS OF HONOUR : Joe Haldeman, Wolfgang Jeschke & Harry Harrison
FAN GUEST OF HONOUR : Andrew Porter
TOASTMISTRESS : Chelsea Quinn Yarbro

POSTAL ADDRESS : WorldCon 1990
                 P.O. BOX 95370
                 2509 CJ  The Hague
                 The Netherlands

The email address for ConFiction - WorldCon 1990 is :

BITNET : A410JACQ@HASARA11
UUCP   : mcvax!hasara11.bitnet!a410jacq
ARPA   : A410JACQ@HASARA11.BITNET
       : A410JACQ%HASARA11.BITNET@MCVAX.CWI.NL
       : JACQUELINE@SARA.NL


Information on the RATES of membership and the local agents are available
upon request from me. See end of posting for more info.

I am **NOT** a member of the organizing committee and am **NOT**
responsible for the program/organization/etc. of ConFiction. I only act as
an e-mail go-between. I **DO** however have "official" backing of the
organizing committee, and I regularly contact them. All requests will be
forwarded to the chairman of the committee (Kees van Toorn), except for
file requests.  Clearly state in the subject line of your message :
WORLDCON. Optional : your own subject. E.g. :
   Subject: WORLDCON
   Subject: WORLDCON, change of address
   Subject: WORLDCON, Membership verification

*  PLEASE NOTE :

   I CANNOT guarantee that your message will escape oblivion if you DO NOT
   include 'WORLDCON' in your subject line!  PLEASE don't ask me to become
   your pen-pal. I LOVE writing long letters and such, but I already have
   SIX e-mail penpals and I do not have the time to write to more.....
   sorry.....  All mail will be dumped to 3."5 disk Receipt of your message
   will be acknowledged + copies will be sent ASAP to the WorldCon people.

This file is also posted to CSNEWS@MAINE.BITNET and maybe retrieved by
issuing a message to the server of CSNEWS@MAINE (BITNET) :

SENDME WORLDCON DIGEST FROM CSBB

or by subscribing to this DIGEST. PLEASE, don't ask me to assist you with
this server, as I don't have the time to help you (requests to bitbucket),
the server responds to 'HELP', 'INFO' or try 'DIR * * FROM PUBLIC'. Accepts
FILE and MESSAGE and for limited commands MAIL. If you send FILEs (BITNET
only) the filetype should be POSTING or POS. BITNET users can find help in
the file CSBB HELPNET (issue the message "SENDME CSBB HELPNET").  As far as
I understand it, Internet users can subscribe to this discussion by sending
a MAIL to CSNEWS. You cannot requests files, but you can SUBSCRIBE and
UNSUBSCRIBE to topics. Don't blame me if the following doesn't work, I
tried it once myself, from an Internet site, and failed horribly. Send a
MAIL with the following subject line to CSNEWS @ MAINE :

Subject: CSBB.Worldcon <subject>     (<subject> is optional)

and with contents :

/EXECUTE BBOARD SUBSCRIBE WORLDCON    or
/EXECUTE BBOARD UNSUBSCRIBE WORLDCON

other worthwhile discussions are :

CSNEWS_UPDATES       (READing only)
CS_USERS             (for questions etc.)
SFSTORY
TEST                 (for test purposes)

Plus at least a million more. I won't mention my favourites, because I
don't want people like that Mosley guy screwing up our discussions!  If you
want to contribute to a discussion, Internet users should send a MAIL, with
as subjectline :

Subject: CSBB.<topic> <your subject>   e.g.

Subject: CSBB.SFSTORY Hi Guys! I'm new to this group

For the rest, you can do as you please. This submitting stuff ALWAYS works
(tested from an Internet site). /EXECUTE Mails will generate an
acknowledgement.

Since you can't request backissues (because of the FORMAT), I'm willing to
send INTERNET users the file CSBB HELPNET, plus a list of discussions. From
then you're on your own. In case of major problems, contact Andy Robinson
(ANDY@MAINE.BITNET).

		*** files that can be requested from me ***

WORLDCON RATES      (membership rates)
WORLDCON AGENTS     (local agents)
WORLDCON EMAIL      (this file, latest version)
WORLDCON UPDATE     (Latest news, posted to rec.arts.sf-lovers & CSNEWS)
CSBB HELPNET        (I only will help Internet users)
CSBB TOPICS         (idem)

LATEST NEWS (24-Aug-88, updated 06-Oct-88) :

Soon available : ConFiction T-shirts

A List of Scientific Conventions in The Netherlands in 1990 will be compiled.

The Organizing Committee will try to facilitate Custom Affairs in 1990.
(import of books, magazines and other affairs, costumes + "weapons", which
most likely will be on the 'black list').

Mail sent to the old address (U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET is forwarded to the
new address. No mail is lost.

Updates to rec.arts.sf-lovers, SF-LOVERS and CSNEWS@MAINE (WORLDCON DIGEST).

If you want me too, I can put you on a mailinglist and send you updates,
privately, of Worldcon news. Requests to me. Note that the updates are ALSO
send to rec.arts.sf-lovers and CSNEWS@MAINE.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 04:07:44 GMT
From: flatline!erict@sugar.uu.net (j eric townsend)
Subject: ArmadilloConX -- microreport

Hiya.

Just got back from ArmadillConX in Austin.  With the exception of a few
missing 'pro's, the con was a great event.  I'll sit down and write up a
neo-summary-review-comment sometime in the next few days.

Unfortunately, the impromptu "Bruce Sterling Imitation Contest" was not
held, although most involved (the "Milk&Cookies/Bedtime Stories" bunch)
agreed that it should be a real event. :-)

A capsule:
Jeter was great.  He also announced that he's done with SF (or sci-fi :-),
and will now put all his energy into horror/thriller-chiller.

Pat Cadigan's reading -- the last "Deadpan Ally" story :-( -- which will
soon be part of an anthology (the name of which I've just managed to
forget).  In one word: wow.  She got a couple of minutes or so of *serious*
applause (more than Jeter got, even).

Tim Powers, George Blaylock and Jeter told a bunch of fun PKD stories.

Lew Shiner was actually bearable, while the Minister of Propaganda for THE
MOVEMENT was his normal self.  He has the cutest daughter in the world,
though.  When he's talking to his wife and kid he's a different person
altogether.

Oh well, more later.

J. Eric Townsend                  
511 Parker #2, Houston, Tx, 77007
Inet: COSC3AF@george.uh.edu
UUCP:  uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict
Bitnet: COSC3AF@UHVAX1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 09:32:48 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.edu (didsgn)
Subject: Dragon Con 1988 (Atlanta, Ga, Oct 7-9), a few comments

For those interested:

Attendees included such greats as Fred Saberhagen, A D Foster, and Larry
Elmore. The show was well attended, suitably crazy, and had some
interesting panels and performances.

Next year's con will be held in late June, I think, and if you are down
Atlanta way, do not miss it. 

I would add one comment about the art exhibition. It featured, among
others, more than ten original oils by Larry Elmore. They were dazzling,
and make it quite understandable why Larry is where he is in the fantasy
illustration field. It is incredible how much gets lost in printing the
originals, either through loss of nuance, or through misguided enhancement
of the colours for reproduction purposes. It is in the originals that the
difference between Elmore and his colleagues becomes most obvious. The
crucial factor is hard to define, but his paintings draw you into them, and
I for one, who ususally does not read the kind of stuff he illustrates and
paints for (Dragonlance, Darksword, Games, etc) find it an almost
irresistible temptation to take each of his paintings and try and weave a
story around them. He may be painting the written word, but I think stuff
like that can cause one to write around the painted image.

I was unable to find out where large-scale prints of Larry's work can be
procured. Any suggestions?

Till Noever
gatech!rebel!didsgn!till

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 20:19:36 GMT
From: wex@banzai-inst.sw.mcc.com (Alan Wexelblat)
Subject: Re: ArmadilloConX -- microreport

erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) writes:
> Just got back from ArmadillConX in Austin.  With the exception of a few
> missing 'pro's, the con was a great event.

I thought it was somewhat disappointing.  Very disorganized in general.
Panel chairs not showing up half the time.  Opening registration at 10 when
the first panel of the day is at 10 is also a dumb idea.  *Great* con
suite, tho'.

> Jeter was great.  He also announced that he's done with SF (or sci-fi
> :-), and will now put all his energy into horror/thriller-chiller.

He read a story that he called "erotic horror."  Must be some new meaning
of the word 'erotic' with which I am not familiar.  I'm not enough of a
horror fan to comment on it as horror.  Jeter was best on panels; he is a
natural moderator and handles an audience well.

> Pat Cadigan's reading -- the last "Deadpan Ally" story :-( -- which will
> soon be part of an anthology (the name of which I've just managed to
> forget).  In one word: wow.  She got a couple of minutes or so of
> *serious* applause (more than Jeter got, even).

It was a *great* story.  I had the pleasure of interviewing her that night.
The story ("Dirty Work") is actually the *first* Deadpan Allie story
written.  It is going to be part of a collection of "unusual vampire
stories" edited by Datlow.  The collection has been shopped around for a
while now, which is why that story didn't make it into MINDPLAYERS.

> Lew Shiner was actually bearable,

I thought he did the funniest toastmaster speech I'd ever heard.

> while the Minister of Propaganda for THE MOVEMENT was his normal self.

He was actually kind of subdued.  He was kind of disappointed no one called
him out on any of the (deliberately) outrageous things he said.

> He has the cutest daughter in the world, though.  When he's talking to
> his wife and kid he's a different person altogether.

Yeah.  Pat Cadigan has a son who's almost 3.  Amy (Sterling's daughter) was
introduced to Pat with the line "See, Amy?  This is your future mother-in-
law."

Alan Wexelblat
ARPA: WEX@MCC.COM
UUCP: {rutgers, uunet, &c}!cs.utexas.edu!milano!wex

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 88 21:50:25 GMT
From: rf1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Randolph James Finder)
Subject: Wanted: definition,Male Puberty

I am writing a story about a hi-tech society rediscovering magic. One thing
this story has is rituals which devide the people into 5 groups: Married
adults and small children(not having learned to walk yet) (age 0-2),
children between learning to walk and puberty(2-12?), between puberty and
first sexual encounter(12?-14??), between first sexual encounter and
marriage, and widowers and people who have been divorced. My problem is
that I cannot come up with a reasonable definition for going between the
2nd and the third for males. i.e.  what could a society use to check for
males having reached puberty?

E-Mail or post or both.

Randolph Finder
rf1n+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 18:18:16 GMT
From: spw@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Steve Wartik)
Subject: Need SF Predictions

My sister is doing research for a piece for Omni Magazine that will include
predictions by science fiction writers that have become reality.  Jules
Verne's predictions on submarines, and H. G. Wells' stories, come quickly
to mind, but neither of us is intimately familiar with them; also, she's
looking for suggestions on writers from all periods of history -- from the
beginnings of civilization to the present.  I told her I'd solicit
contributions from the net.  Can anyone provide me with some information?
If you can think of any, please provide the author's name, the idea, the
work in which it appears, the year it was written, and any other
information you think is relevant.  If you don't know all this information,
don't worry -- subsets of the above are more than welcome!  And if you know
of any previous articles that have dealt with this topic, please let me
know where she can find them.

She's in a bit of a rush (what journalist isn't?), so please mail your
answers directly to me.

With Thanks in Advance,

Steve Wartik
spw@cs.virginia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 21:48:59 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions ("spoilers" for a decades-old story, "Waldo")

Submarines are older than Jules Verne.  Study American history.

I'm sure you'll get lots of references to remote effectuators, aka "Waldos"
after the story "Waldo" by Heinlein.  The story would also form a good
jumping-off point to discuss the flip side: no science fiction predictions
have ever come true.  Science fiction is an order of magnitude more
melodramatic than reality.  In "Waldo" the protagonist not only employs
remote effectors to overcome his handicap, but in the end uses psychic
powers to cure his handicap, in his personal satellite palace.  The
differences between real space travel and every fictional tale of space
travel hardly need recounting here.  Computers have not yet spontaneously
developed intelligence and taken over the planet (I think).  And so on.

I responded here rather than by mail because I'd like to see some
discussion of this subject.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #301
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS@rutgers.edu


SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 17 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 301

Today's Topics:

	      Books- Kube-McDowell (2 msgs) & Rice (2 msgs) &
                     Tepper & Zelazny & Recommendations (3 msgs) &
                     SF Magazines (2 msgs) & Book Request &
                     Book Identified & Space Battles

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 16:22:39 GMT
From: sheley@concave.uucp (John Sheley)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

dg@lakart.UUCP (David Goodenough) writes:
>Another suggestion for interesting (fairly light) reading is the "Emprise"
>"Enigma" "Empery" books (AKA the Trigon Disunity) by Michael P
>Kube-McDowell.  By and large OK, althouth the end of the last gets a bit
>messianic. It also has a rather interesting start, and a (I thought)
>unique way of dealing with supra light speed travel.

I also enjoyed this series, but the FTL drive used was basically the same
as the one that Alan Dean Foster uses in his Flinx/Humanx stories.  For the
curious, both drives operate by generating a MASSIVE gravity field in front
of the ship, which the ship proceeds to fall into.  The gravity field is
switched off after the ship falls into it a bit, and then turned on again,
now moved ahead the distance the ship has just moved.  Make the gravity
field big enough and switch it fast enough, and PRESTO!, you're going FTL.
Sort of a like dangling a carrot in front of a donkey's face.

The characterization seemed pretty light, except for the one main character
that spanned the second and third books (I forget his name - it's been a
while); but Kube-McDowell had some interesting things to say about
different kinds of societies and how they effect their individuals.  The
thing that made the books for me was the political action which permeated
just about every aspect of the story.

And finally, a non-recommendation: under no circumstances read "The
Architects of Hyperspace" by a completely forgotten author.  It reads like
a Traveller (SF role-playing game) scenario.  The first half of the book
sets up an explorer's daughter to go and try to find her lost father.  She
acquires a completely despicable enemy/competitor (ex-boyfriend), then
hires a ship piloted by a degenerate-but-loveable-and-really-heroic (soon
to be love interest).  The second half consists of the hero and heroine
chasing her father (and being chased by the bad guy) through a gigantic
space station maze that Gary Gygax would have been proud of.  Blech!

sheley@convex.UUCP
{killer, sun, uiucdcs}!convex!sheley

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 15:13:47 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Foster/Kube-McDowell FTL drives

sheley@concave.uucp (John Sheley) writes: 
> ... both drives operate by generating a MASSIVE gravity field in front of
> the ship, which the ship proceeds to fall into.  The gravity field is
> switched off after the ship falls into it a bit, and then turned on
> again, now moved ahead the distance the ship has just moved.  Make the
> gravity field big enough and switch it fast enough, and PRESTO!, you're
> going FTL.

I realize that all FTL is handwaving after a fashion, but the above makes
no sense to me at all, at least not as an FTL drive.  Seems to me that in
order for such a drive to pull a ship faster than light, you have to
generate the gravity field ahead of the ship faster than light.  If you're
going to postulate a means of projecting gravity waves FTL, you may as well
go whole hog and postulate an FTL drive without any explanation at all.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 14:18:00 GMT
From: stanwass@uxg.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: _Queen of the Damned_

I too could hardly wait for the publication of _Queen of the Damned_.  _The
Vampire Lestat_ was just a marvelous book.  I am now halfway through
_Queen_ and am somewhat disappointed.  It is considerably more violent than
_Lestat_ and not as erotic (eroticism for vampires is not related to sex,
but to the act of "feeding").  I guess equaling the feat of _Lestat_ is
just too difficult.  However, because the story still fascinates, the new
book is still marvelous reading.

Stanley Wasserman
Psychology & Statistics
University of Illinois
stanwass@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 21:00:57 GMT
From: drivax!macleod@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: _Queen of the Damned_

samdixon@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Sam E Dixon III) writes:
>....Poor Jesse.  If only she had been a vampire, she would have avoided a
>lot of pain. Also, all the vampires have to be so protective of her, but
>of course, it isn't enough.  The vampires whine about how horrible their
>state is, but as glamourously as Rice paints their lives, why would any
>sane being want to be anything OTHER than a vampire?

This is what makes art Art, in my opinion.  One of the recurring themes of
the vampire stories is that vampirization is no remedy for The Human
Condition.  Everybody complains about something, King or tramp.  Even these
supernatural immortals, who have almost no weaknesses, cannot escape their
own personalities and viewpoints.  As she has (I think) Armand say in _The
Vampire Lestat_, vampires make fledglings in hopes of some sort of pathetic
camradarie, but this one goes mad in the process, that one hates you for
making him, and a third goes off on his own.

This theme is widespread in both SF and Fantasy.  I think it reflects the
persistence of human problems in an age where so many of the physical
problems of life have been virtually solved for the large middle class.
The really deep problems still remain.  As Oberon says to Corwin in _Courts
of Chaos_, "No man can have everything he wants the way he wants it", or
something similar.

Michael Sloan MacLeod
amdahl!drivax!macleod

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 14:20:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: "After Long Silence" by Tepper

>> One gets the sense from this book that decent people never do evil
>> things, and that the population can be cleanly divided into the OK and
>> the utterly depraved.
>
>Hmmm... this seems to be a pet theme of hers.  In the ``true game'' series
>(King's Blood Four, ... * Mavin *, Jinian * ), there's the whole bao
>concept: either one is born with a soul, or not.  In the latter case,
>person in question going be utterly evil and despicable and the best thing
>to do is to put him (or her) out of his misery (... now there's some
>ammunition for the pro-capital-punishment types).
>
>At the time I didn't think she actually believed this.  Now I'm not so
>sure.

I'll have to third that impression.  The only books of hers I've read are
_Northshore_ and _Southshore_; they had a powerful impression, but I don't
agree with her world-view.

(*Spoiler ahead*) At the end of _Southshore_, she starts drawing some
strong conclusions.  The answer to the riddle "What good are dead
warriors?" was very intriguing -- "The good is that they are dead."  But I
got the distinct impression that she believes in some sort of Darwinian
determinism: just as the birdlike creatures (I forget their name) could not
abandon their diet of humans for one of fish ("the ones who could already
had"), so the human warriors -- those who leap in battle-dance and talk of
honor -- were genetically predetermined, and so the human race will be
better off once those with warlike genes kill each other off and let the
rest of us live in peace.

I disagree with this view, whether it is Tepper's or not.  I believe
everyone has the ability for both great destruction and great healing, and
the ability to choose between them.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 00:26:28 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

You want a headache?  It is said that not even the Lords of Chaos can
survive immersion in Primal Chaos.  But in effect nothing existed until
Dworkin inscribed the Pattern; there were no Shadows, there was (obviously)
no Amber.  So:

(1) Did the Courts exist before the Pattern?

(2) If not, WHERE DID THE LORDS OF CHAOS LIVE?

(3) If the courts DID exist, what kept them stable?  (If it was the Logrus,
    then the question moves up one level:  who/what created the Logrus?  If
    not, then what?)

Brandon S Allbery
uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
allbery%ncoast@hal.cwru.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 05:52:36 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

> Also, I'd be interested in any books that have no FTL, ESP, or
> pseudo-physics, even if the books are just ok.

Another recommendation:

"Journey to Fusang" by William Sanders.

An alternate world historical adventure set in the 17th century where the
Mongols had conquered Europe.  Finn the Juggler has to decamp from Ireland
where he has gotten the kings favorite daughter pregnant, and ends up on a
moorish slaver taking englishmen to the New World.  There he has adventures
from Dar al-Islam (New Orleans) to Haiping (San Francisco).  Would you
believe Muslim Comanches, and a ninja.  Recommended to fans of Flashman and
horrible anachronistic puns/jokes.

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 19:16:46 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

Also, an adventure set (sort of) in our history:

    Silk Roads and Shadows, by Susan Shwartz

Byzantine princess travels to China to steal more silkworms.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 00:23:10 GMT
From: jester@ihlpl.att.com (Conty)
Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Wanted

shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> Also, I'd be interested in any books that have no FTL, ESP, or
> pseudo-physics, even if the books are just ok.

What you're looking for is what is generally known as "hard" SF, which is
science fiction which is mostly an extrapolation of the known physics.

Personally I would recommend some of the novels by Arthur C. Clarke,
especially _2001_, _Rendezvous_with_Rama_ and _The_Fountains_of_Paradise_.
In fact, almost all the novels by Clarke, and most of his short stories, if
not "techie" SF.

You might also try _Neuromancer_ by William Gibson.  Not a great novel, but
it's reasonably good, and it proposes one of the most fascinating (although
scary) alternate futures I've ever seen.

Finally, _The_Hitchhikers_Guide_To_The_Galaxy_, by Douglas Adams.  This is
by no means hard SF.  Even if it has cartloads of *very* ridiculous physics
is a good read if you're ready for some great laughs at the expense of lots
of SF pseudo-physics cliches.

Hope this helps,

E. Conty
..!att!ihlpl!jester

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 88 01:00:34 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: ANALOG (Was:  Re: SF Magazines and Omni)

>Of course, that incredible universe out there is passe', and it is
>completely unfashionable to write stories about exploring it, not to
>mention not being Politically Correct.  Excuse me if I fail to find
>Fashion and Political Correctness to be convincing arguments for
>Literarity.  I have a life-long contempt for "Fashion".  I read SF
>primarily for "Sense of Wonder", and for me, neither New-Wave
>steam-of-consciousness drug trips nor Cyberpolitical Correctness provide
>that.
>
>And neither does "My Cat is the Reincarnation of Elvis Presley".

Hear, Hear! Bravo! It's so good to hear someone else who still wants to be
wide-eyed with wonder while reading SF. I just hope that your aversions to
Fashion and Political Correctness (which I share with you) won't keep you
from appreciating a really well-written piece, regardless of its genre
(hard SF, cyberpunk, or even occasionally (shudder!) Piers Anthony, in one
of the Dangerous Visions collections...).

And let me add my name to that of anyone who's Omni-bashing - I've always
felt incredibly cheated that so much good fiction has gotten published in a
magazine that's so offensive that it's just not worth putting up with the
dross in order to get to the occasional gold. Their so-called "science"
articles could just as easily be run in the NY Daily News, and I gag at all
the gross, glitzy, glossy ads - makes me feel as though I'm reading San
Francisco Focus (or any other yuppie "City" magazine), rather than science
fiction.

I suppose there's a market for it, but it's not for me.

I have nothing against the fiction in most SF magazines. Some is bad, most
of it is at least acceptable, a fair amount is enjoyable, and some in each
and every one of them is quite good. But I have a low threshold for lack of
respect for the people who make up your audience/market, and Omni's sins of
that kind are legion.

Don Coolidge

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 14:35:00 GMT
From: nelson_p@apollo.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: sf magazines and Omni

 Mike Van Pelt posts...

>What does "Literary" have to do with the grab-bag of pseudoscience that is
>a large part of my reason for finding Omni objectionable?  I've said this
>before, and, ignoring the certainty of massive flaming in response I'll
>say it again, WHY WHY WHY is the display of even a passing knowledge of
>science considered to utterly disqualify a SF writer from "Literariness"?

Boy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Science fiction virtually owes its existence to such concepts as
time-travel, FTL travel, parallel universes, and other things for which the
scientific foundations are, shall we say, 'shakey', 'weak', perhaps even
'non- existent'.

I don't read Omni because I don't find its pseudoscience entertaining
enough to justify the price.  I do read the Weekly World News and the Sun
because I do find them entertaining, much to the consternation of my wife
while we are in the checkout line at the supermarket.

As far as 'cyberpunk' and related works go: I enjoy the stark, nihilistic,
commercialized, technoid, violent images of the near-future that many of
today's writers are producing.  I find them vastly more plausible, real,
and fully-fleshed than the 'Starship Trooper' or 'Star Trek' genre of
traditional science fiction.

Peter

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 88 07:04:52 GMT
From: cquenel@polyslo.calpoly.edu (Rodent Of Unusual Size)
Subject: NTB (Name That Book)

A novel about a robot "Sprockets".  Juvenile. It was my first sci-fi book.
can't for the life of me remember the author.

chris

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 06:23:54 GMT
From: menolly@garnet.berkeley.edu (Pamela Pon)
Subject: children's book: boy with wings flying around San Francisco

jh@mit-amt (John Underkoffler) writes:
>The second was a wonderful story whose title I have forgotten but which
>concerned itself with a mostly ordinary boy who of course wished that he
>were not so ordinary; his mother owned a boarding house (in which they
>also lived) and his father was dead. The book spent two hundred pages just
>detailing his ordinary life. Sorry. That's not it at all. Begin again.
>His life became exciting when he did some kindness to a traveling salesman
>who turned out to be a peddler of genuinely magical wares. The stranger
>shows his gratitude by bestowing upon our hero a vial of pearly liquid; we
>learn that a drop of this salve rubbed into each shoulder causes the boy
>to sprout wings with which he then flies around and has a generally great
>time. More description would spoil the tale. Any hints?

The title is not 'The Boy Who Could Fly,' but BLACK AND BLUE MAGIC, by
Zilpha Keatley Snyder, copyright 1966.  The edition which our school used
was published by Scholastic Book Services, a division of Scholastic
Magazines, Inc., by arrangement with Atheneum Publishers (first printing:
Nov. 1967).

Pamela Pon
1235 Vista Grande
Millbrae, CA 94030
menolly@garnet.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 88 17:39:37 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #289

blue@SED.CEEE.NBS.GOV ("James L. Blue") writes:
> I am interested in what real space combat might be like, perhaps in about
> a hundred years or so from now, without breaking any laws of physics or
> assuming "magic" such as hyper-drive. Has there been any discussion of
> this in the past? Are there useful reference books? Are any SF books of
> interest?

_People_of_the_Wind_, and other stories by Poul Anderson. They have
hyperdrive but use the usual mass-warps-hyperdrive scam. Some of the
stories involve hypercombat tactics, too, and they are also interesting.

_Marooned_in_Realtime_, by Vernor Vinge. Relativistic battle with what
amounts to a niven stasis field and nuclear weapons. They use an orion
drive and great medical technology to get around.  

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 17 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 302

Today's Topics:

		    Television - Beauty and the Beast &
                                 Time Tunnel (4 msgs) &
                                 War of the Worlds (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 19:39:07 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Beauty and The Beast Costumes

TITLE: Quashing Rumors from Paramont
I would like to enlist the troubleshooting powers of this group to verify a
rumor concerning "Beauty and the Beast."

During a B&B party tonight a friend warned me against completing a
"Vincent" costume.  She said that Jay Smith, who has made and excellent
"Vincent" re-creation I hear, warned her that Rick Baker (creator of the
make-up appliance) in association with Paramont is taking legal action
against fans who attempt to re-create Vincent.

The legal minds require fans to either:
a) Obtain express permission from the above parties to attempt the 
   costume.
b) Audition for specific conventions, as Jay Smith has done.
c) Or become a "certified" actor which requires a $10,000 fee.
   (Sounds like a standard S.A.G. membership :-)

This sounds like hooey to me, but I'm a fan of the series and if the
deserving members of the production company do not wish their efforts
re-created by appreciative fans (and their mothers who help them) AND they
are taking cowerdly legal actions...  I would like to know.

As you know, B&B is a production of Republic Pictures in association with
Witt/Thomas Productions who are represented by the Lippin Group.  The LA
agents for the Lippion Group are Leah Krantzler and Joan Deutchman, and
they may be reached at (213) 653-5910.

The above information is from the public press kit and is not especially
secret.  I would be interested to hear what the real story is.

Victor O'Rear
P.O. Box 3972
La Mesa, California  92044
(619) 588-7423 
{hplabs!hp-sdd, cbosgd, ucsd, nosc.mil}!crash!victoro        |
crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 18:20:29 GMT
From: kwatts%tahquitz@sun.com (Kevin L. Watts)
Subject: Re: Time Travel Series

drears@ARDEC.ARPA ("Dennis G. Rears ", FSAC) writes:
>     Does anybody remember the name of a television series that aired in
> the mid to late sixties about time travel.  If I recall correctly it was
> a about a man (or 2 men) who was doomed to keep traveling in time.  Every
> episode was a different time period.  I don't remember much as I was only
> 6 or seven at the time.
 
Could you be thinking of the Time Tunnel series?  I recently watched a
rerun where the two guys were back in the middle ages or so.  They were
trying to help this guy who they made out to be robin hood. Only this guy
was a noble outlaw and had some title or other, and he was banding together
the nobles to force the king to sign the Magna Carta.  I used to like this
show as a kid, but I thought it was pretty hokey now.

Kev

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 21:46:11 GMT
From: russell@eneevax.umd.edu (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Time Travel Series

drears@ARDEC.ARPA (Dennis G. Rears) writes:
>    Does anybody remember the name of a television series that aired in
>the mid to late sixties about time travel.  If I recall correctly it was a
>about a man (or 2 men) who was doomed to keep traveling in time.  Every
>episode was a different time period.  I don't remember much as I was only
>6 or seven at the time.

YAH!  Time Tunnel, another cult 60's sci-fi series in which the government
was spending millions of dollars building a time machine (actually a red
and white striped tunnel, hence the title).  When the government threatens
to cut off funding due to lack of results, one of the scientists uses
himself as a guinea pig and gets lost in time (and space, as well, but
let's not quibble over details...)  Another scientist is sent after him and
together they get popped from time and place to time and place while the
scientists back at the tunnel HQ desperately try to bring them back (they
could make the tunnel act as a television set and watch the scientists
wherever and whenever they were, but only when they had a "fix" on them).
Of course, whenever they managed to bring one or both of them back,
circumstances would intervene causing them to become lost again.  Like
Space 1999, The Champions, Captain Scarlet, et al., you can occasionally
catch several episodes tied together (loosely) and shown as a movie either
late at night, or early Sunday mornings.

Two episodes that I clearly recall involved Merlin appearing in the Time
Tunnel HQ and zapping a couple of MPs, and another episode where the two
travellers end up in Mongolia during the rule of Genghis Khan who happens
to speak flawless English.  Ah, the 60's.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland   
(301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.eng.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 20:20:19 GMT
From: infmx!mabon@pyramid.com (Pam Mabon)
Subject: Re: Time Travel Series

I sent a reply to the original poster, but here goes to the rest.  The show
was "The Time Tunnel"; an Irwin Allen production.  It starred Robert
Colbert as Doug, James Darren as the hot head Tony and Lee Meriwether as
one of the scientists.  I even think Johnny Williams did the theme music.
That's a pretty safe bet considering he did most of Irwin Allen's series
themes (Lost in Space, Land of The Giants and I think The Voyage to The
Bottom of The Sea).

I hope y'all enjoyed this bit of trivia information.

Pam

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 17:59:02 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: Time Travel Series

drears@ARDEC.ARPA (Dennis G. Rears) writes:
>    Does anybody remember the name of a television series that aired
>in the mid to late sixties about time travel.  

The answer has already been mentioned, The Time Tunnel: my favorite episode
was when the two found themselves at Jericho, with God appearing as a
whirlwind; he, ahem, He is caught in the tunnel and manages to blow a few
papers around in the HQ to show his displeasure!  The tunnel itself, btw,
appears in quite a few Irwin Allen productions; I've seen it used in Lost
in Space and Voyage Beneath the Sea, among others. . . .

Hal

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 18:34:01 GMT
From: zgel05@flyer.uucp
Subject: War of the Worlds (tv)

I missed the first part of the show, and putting the rest together with
bits an pieces, have a question.

It is obvious that this series does not begin at the end of the classic
movie of the same title.  Specifically, nobody in the public seems to be
aware of the existence of the aliens, which couldn't be from the titanic
damage and struggles in the movie.  Can someone fill in the missing pieces
of background to this series?

BTW, so far my vote on the series is -2 on a -4 to +4 scale, simply because
of the incredibly predictable plot. (just like Invaders, V, the Fugitive,
etc), but even poor sf can be fun to watch for a couple of episodes...

George Lehmann
Amoco Production Co.
PO BOX 3385
Tulsa, Ok  74102
918-660-4066
...!uunet!apctrc!zgel05

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 16:43:38 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: War of The Worlds - Lame

I watched it with pretty much an open mind.  I wasn't looking for
perfection by any means. All I was looking for was to be entertained with a
reasonably good story.  I was denied even that.  The War of The Worlds
"premiere movie" was nothing but a mish-mash of cliche's mixed in with a lot
of confused people.  If there was an invasion in 1953, supposedly, then why
is it that some people know about it and some people don't?  And it isn't
even as clear cut as that.  I couldn't tell what was going on with the
woman micro-biologist.  She seemed to know about the alien invasion but
still called the main character (Harrison, I think) insane when he started
talking about space aliens.  For that matter, why was he searching for
signs of intelligent life when he already knew of the existence of some
right there on earth?  Why why why?  Nothing was explained adequately, and
the reason for this was that nothing was thought out adequately.  The
writers started out saying "Let's make a series about aliens trying to take
over the earth" and it's as if they didn't care how they got there.  I was
disgusted.  It was an insult to the original movie version, and that was
already an insult to HG Wells's fine book.

As for the special effects, pitiful.  The effects in the original movie
were better.

Will I go on watching it?  Yes, mostly out of masochism and a twisted sense
of loyalty to any american sciencs fiction tv show.  My prediction is that
it won't last six months.

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 15:04:43 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
> If there was an invasion in 1953, supposedly, then why is it that some
> people know about it and some people don't?
  
  In the book based on the TV movie, it appears that the governments of the
world decided to cover up the whole invasion as best as they could.  The
aliens were disposed of, the war machines hidden in air force bases around
the world and the media was told to "forget" about it.  It was not entered
into the history books so only those who were alive during the invasion
would remember it.  People sort of forgot it and younger people, like the
microbiologist, weren't alive to know anything about the invasion except
for stories their parents may have told them.  The government was so
embarrassed about their failure that they just wanted it erased from the
history books.

> searching for signs of intelligent life when he already knew of the alien
> invasion.

Same reason as before, if there is no proof of an invasion, then there is
no evidence of life in outer space.  Harrison was trying to prove that the
invasion really did occur.

  I also thought that for a series premiere it was pitiful.  I bet H.G.
Wells is turning over in his grave over this one.  I give the series about
2 months before it is yanked off of the air.  I can see every episode being
the same.  Look for the aliens, find the aliens, blow them up in the last
10 minutes of the show before they can get another war machine fired up.  I
also wonder if more aliens are going to come to earth.  Also, aren't the
aliens kind of screwed anyways since the very instant that the radiation
wears off enough, they will get reinfected.  Gee, maybe they'll never stop
glowing but any new invaders will have to have some defense against
bacteria.

Oh well, I guess we will see what happens this Saturday when the first hour
long episode runs.  Talk to you later.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 23:27:46 GMT
From: garth!smryan@pyramid.com (Steven Ryan)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds (tv)

>I missed the first part of the show, and putting the rest together with
>bits an pieces, have a question.

I watched the first half hour, got nauseous, and turned on the radio. It
was repeated later Sunday night, so I watched the second half hour in hopes
it would approve. Didn't. Never bothered with the second hour.

The lead male: I can't decide if he's suppose to be aging hippie, a
burnout, a happy eccentric, macho stud muffin, or psychotic.

The lead female: Legs, lungs, and vocal cords in the best Jo Grant
tradition.  A scientist treated like a doormat with a few concessions to
keep the libbers happy.

She's a microbiologist. (I have no idea what he is.) That's fine, but since
she was hired for some kind of SETI project, why not hire an exobiologist?
I'm sure there are beelyuns and beelyuns of them floating around.

>It is obvious that this series does not begin at the end of the classic
>movie of the same title.  Specifically, nobody in the public seems to be
>aware of the existence of the aliens, which couldn't be from the titanic
>damage and struggles in the movie.  Can someone fill in the missing pieces
>of background to this series?

It takes place some thirty years after the movie. The lead male's parents
were at the Institute and killed so that he was fostered by Prof XYZ, also
from the Institute.

It starts out with terrorists taking over a nuclear waste site. Now, I
realise soldiers are only humans, but I find it hard to believe the six
amateur soldiers can surprise and kill a (?) platoon of professionals.

Turns out the waste site was also used to hold Martian, sorry, alien
corpses.  (Turns out we were actually invaded by unspecified aliens, not
Martians.) It seems the aliens did not decompose but went into some kind of
coma, so we humans packed them into radioactive waste, just to be sure.

If you really aren't sure whether they're dead, why go to that much
trouble?  Just cuisinart those beggars.

A coma might slow down aerobic bacteria in their internal organs, but it
would not affect bacteria on the surface which would have plenty of food
and oxygen.

Well, with all the radioactivity, all the nasty bacteria was killed and the
aliens were cured. When the terrorists attacked, they shot some of barrels
and activated the monsters.

If the aliens's biochemistry was sufficiently similar to ours to permit
infection, the radiation would have fried the aliens's garbonza beans as
well. If they were radiation resistant, why weren't they bacteria
resistant?

As soon as they live the barrels, they're back in the same biosphere and
subject to the same diseases, or so I would've thought.

Well, the aliens captured the terrorists and somehow inhabited their
bodies.  They also acquired the ability to speak english and detailed
knowledge of our culture and technology.

Apart from dozens of other shows using this same ploy, it is completely
inconsistent with the movie. Even though the aliens have been in the deep
freeze and out of contact with rest of the world, the writers of this
turkey obviously were not.

Terrorists know SOMETHING is wanderring about and they go in among the
barrels to investigate. The way they are captured is ridiculous; the
terrorists look more like a Sunday school outing than a desperate band that
just killed a superior force.

Aliens have the now traditional hatred and contempt for humans and their
technology. I much prefer the movie version: humans were simply cockroaches
to be removed. Or appetizers. Also the aliens are suddenly much stronger
than humans. I guess it was the nap.

A Delta Force colonel join the female and male lead. He is tracking down
the terrorists (which we know are aliens in disguise). A colonel should be
commanding a battlion or regiment. So he attacks with a platoon, or less,
with no support. Of course, his men go down like tenpins.

Now the male lead is trying to convince the Powers That Be that the aliens
are revived and moving about. Of course, they demand that he prove his case
before they act. It is a direct violation of the 3rd Law of Cheap SF that
the Power That Be take no, and I mean NO, preemptive actions against any
threat that is obvious to the audience. At this point,

Everybody knows the aliens trashed LA thirty years earlier.

All the barrels, and only the barrels, containing aliens are missing from
the waste site.

The colonel's men are all killed as he watched.

The aliens are headed straight for their war machines.

I decide watch something intellectually stimulating, like UFO.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 22:25:12 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

OK.  I've read most of the letters about War Of The Worlds, but I will say
this: it was *GOOD*.

You say it's an insult to Wells' book.  Do you honestly think they went out
and purposely tried to insult his book?  No.  They took his CONCEPT and
modified it.  Yes, I wish that SOMEONE would produce an accurate movie of
the book, but that doesn't mean I have to dislike the movie or the new
series.  The original movie made me go back and read the original book,
which I loved.  I never expected it to be like the movie.

I am thrilled at the new series.  While everyone seems to have gone over it
looking for comparisons with the book I looked at its continuity with the
original film.  I KNEW it wouldn't be like the book.  What I saw impressed
me.  Why can't people be thrilled by the sight of the reviving machines
which frightened so many of us when we were kids?

Look at all the things they kept over from the movie: The machines
themselves, the sound effects (the real clincher for me), even the actors
(in the second episode we meet the "heroine" from the original movie,
played by the same actress, Ann Robinson).  These people know what they're
doing.  And it isn't going to be much like "V", where the aliens had a
definitie advantage over us.  The Martians (sic, because they only used
Mars as a base) are more on our level at this point.

I don't care what the cynics say, I liked it and that pretty much ends it
there, doesn't it?  Because you won't change my mind, only the series will
and I can't change yours.

Neil P. Marsh
903 E. Jackson Street	 
Muncie, IN 47305         
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 24 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 303

Today's Topics:

		Books - Anthony & Asimov (7 msgs) & Brin &
                        Dickson & Laumer (2 msgs) & MacAvoy &
                        Book Request Answered

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 88 03:08:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #289

>>... the premise of the Earthly nations directly translating into
>>planetary governments is a bit on the silly side.
>
>Where do you think Anthony got the idea? Check out the way the polar
>regions are currently allocated--by the landarea of each respective
>country. Given the bubble-technology, it all hangs together (suspended
>with the will to believe, of course).

The parcelling up of the solar system by nation was a fine idea, and a lot
could have been done with it.  But (spoilers ahead), Anthony ended up
redoing 20th-century earth history almost *exactly*.  We have the
correspondents to Germany and Japan having waged a war against the rest of
the solar system, where they were beaten and forced not to have any more
military forces.  We have a close parallel to the Korean airliner shooting
incident.  We have a problem with lots of Latinos wanting to emigrate to
the United States of Jupiter, who doesn't want them.  We have the U.S.
wanting to have a grass-roots constitutional convention to make a
balance-the-budget amendment!  Why would that still be a problem after 800
years?  Why would neighboring enemies want to colonize the solar system in
a way to duplicate the same predicament in a larger scale (eg. China &
USSR, Arabs and Jews, black & white south africans)?  Why would nearly all
nations mostly abandon the earth?

I can only guess that Anthony was wanting to make some sort of commentary
affairs.  But by taking the middle road, he weakened his case.  He should
have either made an out-and-out allegory with no claims to realistic
extrapolation from today, or taken that future history premise and let new
nations and situations develop, and address current issues in a more
indirect way (which would probably have more impact, too).

Now, this is only one of major gripes about the _Bio_ series...

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 88 23:00:24 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Prelude to Foundation (*spoilers*)

I found it very good reading.  I think what has happened here is that Isaac
Asimov has gone through several stages of writing.  His first books,
generally mind you, were a great deal of narrative with not much character
development.  Then we have a sort of middle-stage represented by _Robots of
Dawn_, where the discussion and character interaction became much too
verbose, to the point where it over-shadowed the plot, instead of being
intertwined within the plot.  Now with Prelude to Foundation, I found a
perfect mix.  There was a well crafted story line, believable character
interaction and development, and a punch-you-out ending which was
predictable to the extreme, but that was the point.  I enjoyed it
thoroughly.  One or two gripes, however.

Gripe #1:Asimov's books have become like Heinlein's latest books, which I
also enjoy reading, by the way, in that they are too interrelated.  If you
read _Prelude_ without having read any books in the Robots, Foundation, or
empire series, you would get the jist of what was going on, but the punch
line would mean nothing.  I liked better the style he used for writing his
Empire books where each was sort of inter-related but they could be read
separately and still be understood.

Gripe #2:The advice that Daneel gives Hari at the end seems superfluous and
"tacked on."  "Make two such foundations..."  This sort of
hit-you-over-the-head forshadowing, or should I say back-shadowing, I can
do without.

Gripe #3:Toothpaste?  Wouldn't they have invented some sort of ultra-sonic
technique?  I found this sort of anachronistic. (ok, it's a very minor
gripe...  Ok just forget it.)

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 14:36:00 GMT
From: kev@imperial-software-tech.co.uk (News reading a/c for kevin)
Subject: Re: FOUNDATION Pentology?  Hexology?

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) writes:
> I just finished the fifth book (Prelude to Foundation ... 

Hold on a minute, when I get round to buying this book, and reading it and
it's immediate predecessor, I will have SIX Foundation books on my shelf.

I only assume the following:-

   1) I live in a private time-warp, ahead of everyone else, or
   2) I have a copy of a book that fell back through it's own warp
      to the present day, or
   3) Rich has miscounted, or
   4) I am not party to some other information.

Since 1) and 2) are unlikely, and as no-one has shouted about 3) yet, I
reckon that 4) must apply. Would someone fill me in.

(For the record I have :- Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second 
Foundation, Foundation's Edge, and Foundation and Earth) 

Kev Holmes
Imperial Software Technology			
Reading, UK.
(44) 252 547902
kev@ist.CO.UK

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 13:51:37 GMT
From: jac@petsd.ccur.com (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: FOUNDATION Pentology?  Hexology?

You are correct, Rich seems to have miscounted, _Prelude to Foundation_
makes SIX Foundation books.  I have all of them, and while I liked all of
(oops, mild spoiler alert) them, I have to agree that having Daneel beat
Hari over the head and tell him to create two foundations seemed to be a
bit much.  I also am a little bothered that Daneel seems to be pulling all
of the strings here.  I liked thinking that Hari had come up with
psycho-history on his own.  I'm not as happy learning that Daneel had to
manipulate him into pursuing it.  Ah, well.  So, what is Asimov going to
write next?

Jim Clausing	
Parallel Processing Tools Grp
Concurrent Computer Corp.	
Tinton Falls, NJ  07724		
jac@petsd.ccur.com
{rutgers, princeton}!petsd!jac

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 88 00:02:25 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: FOUNDATION Pentology?  Hexology?

kev@ist.CO.UK writes:
> I will have SIX Foundation books on my shelf.
>   1) I live in a private time-warp, ahead of everyone else, or
>   2) I have a copy of a book that fell back through it's own warp
>      to the present day, or
>   3) Rich has miscounted, or
>   4) I am not party to some other information.
> Since 1) and 2) are unlikely, and as no-one has shouted about 3) yet, I
> reckon that 4) must apply. Would someone fill me in.

You are right, and the answer is #3, I miscounted.  I'd like to claim I was
doing drugs and forgot, but it was probably just tiredness from staring at
this stupid CRT too long.  The books are, in proper reading order (with
publication order in parentheses):
   Prelude to Foundation (6)
   Foundation (1)
   Foundation and Empire (2)
   Second Foundation (3)
   Foundation's Edge (4)
   Foundation and Earth (5) 

To get the whole series correct, you should read all the robot novels
first, because that sets the stage for knowing who the "off the cuff
mentions of weird characters" are who are discussed in the Foundation
series (e.g., psychohistory is first discussed in ROBOTS OF DAWN and the
robot Treveze meets in PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION happens to be the same one who
plays detective with Elijah Bailey in the robot series (which I think is
only four books).

Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 88 08:34:28 GMT
From: crew@polya.stanford.edu (Roger Crew)
Subject: proper reading order (was Re: FOUNDATION Pent/Hexology?)

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) writes:
> The books are, in PROPER READING ORDER (with publication order in
> parentheses):
>
>   Prelude to Foundation (6)
>   Foundation (1)
>   Foundation and Empire (2)
>   Second Foundation (3)
>   Foundation's Edge (4)
>   Foundation and Earth (5) 
> ...
> [ to do it right, read the robot novels first ]

Proper reading order?  I don't think so.  

It's certainly the correct ``chronological'' order.  I'm sure, however,
that reading Prelude to Foundation first would spoil some of the later
books.  Part of what makes the original 3 books work is not having too much
detail about Hari Seldon -- for the most part we just see the myths that
have been built up around him.

I haven't read Prelude yet, and I'm not sure I even *want* to read it...

This seems to happen a fair amount, namely that a series gets written ``out
of order'' for which

1)  the order in which various `secrets' get revealed is significant
    (eg., the author writes a book that occurs earlier in the timeline
    that explains some essential mystery in the ``later'' books)

2)  the author's conception of his/her world has changed significantly
    during the course of writing all of the books.

Lots of other examples come to mind:

MZB's Darkover -- supposedly these can be read in any order.
    However, they were written over the course of 20+ years.  In the
    context of the later books (in publication order), the earlier books
    stop making sense...

Tepper's True Game books -- the Mavin books have some major-league
    spoilers for Kings Blood 4...

Brin's Sundiver/Startide Rising/Uplift War -- 
    thus far, there's no compelling reason behind any particular order.

Kurtz's Deryni books -- haven't read these yet (only seen the
    net-flamage), but I would imagine that you don't want to find
    out too soon just what happened to Camber after book 3 ...

Tolkien -- hmmm... unlike the other cases, writing and publication
    orders are different (if these are meaningful at all).  publication
    order goes Hobbit, LoTR, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales.  This is
    definitely NOT the order in which he built his world.  Nevertheless,
    there are certainly parts of the Silmarillion that you don't want to
    see (Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age) before reading LoTR.

In fact, I can't even think of any series which was written/published out
of order for which reading the books in ``chronological'' order (as opposed
to publication order) is really preferable.

Figure that if the books were written/published in a certain order, there's
probably a good reason...

Roger Crew
{arpa gateways, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!polya.stanford.edu!crew
crew@polya.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 88 21:51:23 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: proper reading order (was Re: FOUNDATION Pent/Hexology?)

>Proper reading order?  I don't think so.  
>
>It's certainly the correct ``chronological'' order.  I'm sure, however,
>that reading Prelude to Foundation first would spoil some of the later
>books.  Part of what makes the original 3 books work is not having too
>much detail about Hari Seldon -- for the most part we just see the myths
>that have been built up around him.
>
>I haven't read Prelude yet, and I'm not sure I even *want* to read it...

Prelude should properly be called Prelude to Prelude to Foundation.  The
subject is not Seldon's working on psychohistory but how he got around to
working on psychohistory. The purpose of the book is not a prelude but an
epilogue as you discovered what happened to the Spacer civilization of the
robot series.

So reading Prelude in no way spoils the main body of the Foundation series.
In fact, it isn't even necessary to ever read this book except to satisfy
your curiosity as to what happened to the Spacer culture.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 88 16:43:55 GMT
From: richa@tekred.tek.com (Rich Amber )
Subject: Re: proper reading order (was Re: FOUNDATION Pent/Hexology?)

crew@polya.Stanford.EDU (Roger Crew) writes:
> Proper reading order?  I don't think so.  
> It's certainly the correct ``chronological'' order.  I'm sure, however,
> that reading Prelude to Foundation first would spoil some of the later
> books.  Part of what makes the original 3 books work is not having too
> much detail about Hari Seldon -- for the most part we just see the myths
> that have been built up around him.
> 
> I haven't read Prelude yet, and I'm not sure I even *want* to read it...

If you haven't read PRELUDE yet, how can you be sure it would ruin the
original trilogy by being read first?  I actually felt like I was missing
data when I read FOUNDATION because Seldon WAS this mysterious super
mathematician with a seemingly impossible science.  Now I know he was human
and circumstances (and some major prodding) got psychohistory in action.  I
don't like too much magic/superstition in Science Fiction (I go read
fantasy when I want magic).

I also read these books out of order, as I'm sure, all of us who read them
at all did.  Asimov himself has listed the reading order, which starts with
all the short robot stories compiled in THE COMPLETE ROBOT, then goes
through the Robot series, the Empire series, and the Foundation series.
Now that I have finally read them all, I do wish I could have read them in
the order Asimov suggested.  They all tie together much more coherently
that way (understanding the subtle influence/interaction of Daneel through
these series, etc.).

But, I'm not one of those to push my opinion down your throat.  You be
happy reading, or not reading, as you desire.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 88 22:46:25 GMT
From: cc1@valhalla.cs.ucla.edu (R...for Rabbit)
Subject: Re: Sequel to Uplift War?

David Brin sometimes stops by our UCLA Science Fiction/Fantasy club, and
according to one of our members who was in touch with him, he's working on
some unspecified novel.  He should be back to visit us sometime in this
quarter, so I'll have more news then.  Oh, by the way, what was the last
book he wrote?  Whatever it was, the current book WON'T be set in the same
universe (according to a "rule" he follows, from what he said last year).

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 88 05:09:32 GMT
From: bsadrc!usenet@uunet.uu.net (Darrel R. Carver)
Subject: THE CHANTRY GUILD

Has any found this one laying around yet?  It is apparently the
continuation of Dickson's THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA and Dorsai series.  Any
comments on it?  I found it in B DALTON'S here in White Plains but did not
get a chance to pick it up before they sold it.

In addition I saw a note in a Asimov's SFM a couple of months ago
announcing a new book by James P. Hogan but I haven't seen hide nor hair of
it yet.  Has anybody else?  Any comments?

Darrel R. Carver
Computer Sciences Corporation	
White Plains, NY 10606
uunet!bsadrc!drc
att!wp3b01!drc
attmail!dcarver

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 88 15:52:48 GMT
From: ugwiles@sybil (Dale Wiles)
Subject: Keith Laumer

Does anyone out there know the where abouts of Kieth Laumer? You know, the
guy who wrote the Retief, and BOLO series.

All I see in the book stores are Baen, and Torr reprints of his earlyer
work. Is he dead or what?

I await the collective wisdom of the net.

Dale Wiles

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 88 19:49:17 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Keith Laumer

>I believe that Laumer may have decided to retire completely... I haven't
>seen any new material at all, of any quality, for several years now.

Nope. There's a new Retief book on the schedules from Baen for February. I
just got the publicity sheet the other day. This looks like it is a new-new
work rather than a new-repackaged work.

Chuq Von Rospach			
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 88 08:10:24 GMT
From: FNBENJ@weizmann.bitnet (Benjamin Svetitsky)
Subject: request for information

Does anyone out there know what R.A.MacAvoy is doing now? Specifically,
will there be any more Black Dragon books?  Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 88 20:29:22 GMT
From: ABC102@psuvm.bitnet
Subject: Re: I need a title

P. Baughman <PHB100@PSUVM.BITNET> says:
>    I am looking for a title of a book that a friend of mine told me
>about.  He doesn't remember the title or author but he gave a synopsis.
>This is what I know about it....
(Describes some parts of the Earthsea trilogy)

     This is the Earthsea trilogy by Ursula K. LeGuin, which consists of
_A_Wizard_of_Earthsea_, _The_Tombs_of_Atuan_, and _The_Farthest_Shore_.  It
was originally written as "children's" literature, and the last volume even
won a prize as such, so you are not permitted to read it unless you are a
little kid. ;-) My advice is, fake it.  Putting your thumb in your mouth
for a few days is a small price to pay for the opportunity to read these
books. ;-)

Alex Clark

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 24 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 304

Today's Topics:

		 Television - War of the Worlds (12 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 88 08:34:51 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

drwho@bsu-cs.UUCP (Neil Marsh) writes:
> OK.  I've read most of the letters about War Of The Worlds, but I will
> say this: it was *GOOD*.
> 
> You say it's an insult to Wells' book.  Do you honestly think they went
> out and purposely tried to insult his book?  No.  They took his CONCEPT
> and modified it.  Yes, I wish that SOMEONE would produce an accurate
> movie of the book, but that doesn't mean I have to dislike the movie or
> the new series.  The original movie made me go back and read the original
> book, which I loved.  I never expected it to be like the movie.

Wait a sec... While I do think that the series is an insult to the book, it
is not because I wish the series were more LIKE the book.  The concept of
the series is a completely valid one, and could work as a series, I
believe.  The horrible quality of the script, special effects, acting, and
continuity are what put me off to this series.  As I said, I gave it the
benefit of the doubt.  I sat down to it saying "I'm gonna watch this, and
it might even be good, but even if it's mediocre, it's still science
fiction TV produced in America, which is an inherently good concept.  I was
wrong.  It was just bad.

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 88 17:42:11 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

The special effects BAD???  "V" was BAD compared to today's standards.
Weren't you impressed by the fact that they even retained the original
ship's desgins (not to mention the sound effects and the weaponry)?
"Battlestar Galactica"-type special effects I would agree with you on, but
a show that adds that little touch of the Heat Ray projector flying off of
the last ship with the "whoop-whoop" sound has got class!  They pay
attention to detail.  Yes the effects aren't as good as TNG, but they don't
have they same money that TNG does.  For what they have to work with, they
seem to do quite well!!  (Haven't I always said the same thing about DR.
WHO?)  These shows don't have an unlimited budget and we're not SFX
specialists, so we can't say that they could have done better unless we
know all about the SFX industry.

I was again impressed by the second episode, so I am continuing to watch.

Neil P. Marsh
903 E. Jackson Street
Muncie, IN 47305     
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 88 06:22:43 GMT
From: looking!brad@math.waterloo.edu (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

You're kidding, right?  Somebody liked it.

While there were many things obviously wrong with it, the most notable
being the fact that nobody seems aware that several of the world's great
cities were razed by alien armies in the 50s, something bothered me more.

This pilot seemed to indulge, almost revel in cheap Hollywood SF cliches.
Perhaps I should say sci-fi cliches on this net.

1) Amazing effects of radiation overdose: At least this time it wasn't
   spontaneous 'mutation' of a living creature!  (Does anybody in Hollywood
   even know what mutation actually is?)  Can't figure out how to do it?
   Use radiation.

2) Aliens able to take human form: Ok, I know there are budget limits
   and audiences to underestimate, but why does it always have to be this?
   Why can aliens always duplicate human bodies, take over human bodies or
   shape themselves into humans with funny voices?  This ability just
   doesn't make any sense.  Of course, they can also instantly decode human
   brains, record the memories and instantly speak the language.

   Of course, they can do all that but can't get rid of a few sores on the
   skin.

   If the aliens are aliens, make them aliens.  If you want to make them
   look human, there are far more intelligent ways to make them be human.
   (The best is simply to claim that they are cousins, seeded by a great
   ancestor human race aeons ago.)

George Pal's movie was a great film.  He must be turning around now over
this series.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 22:30:26 GMT
From: bsu-cs!drwho@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Neil Marsh)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds (tv)

I have one question: Is there anyone out there that can watch a show for
the sheer fun of it and not care about the scientific inaccuracies?  If
there is anyone out there like this, would you PLEASE write me.  I am
getting tired of all this...

Neil P. Marsh
903 E. Jackson Street
Muncie, IN 47305     
<backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 88 14:49:49 GMT
From: holstege@polya.stanford.edu (Mary Holstege)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

War of the Worlds was good??!  You're kidding, right.  It was unbelievably
lame.  It wasn't the special effects (I'm a Dr. Who fan from way back); it
wasn't the scientific implausiblity (although there was enough of that to
go around); it was simply the fact that it had clearly been written by
someone who had recently undergone an unsuccessful brain transplant.  It's
a real shame, too, because it is going to slither off the screen in a short
while and folks in Hollywood are going to say "See? Sci-Fi doesn't sell"
and go make another Miami Vice rip-off.

What we have here is the Invaders written for the Nightmare Part XX
generation.  The Invaders worked (after a fashion) because the premise hung
together: sneaky aliens who are very careful to keep themselves secret and
who conveniently bump off anyone but this architect fellow who tumbles to
them.  Invaders had a nicely done sense of paranoia and a couple of
interesting SF ideas tossed in once in a while.  What have we here?  People
over the age of thirty who nevertheless fail to recall the destruction of
major cities in their youth?  I just have a hard time believing that the
question "is life out there" is relevant thirty years after it had been
answered so emphatically in the affirmative.  I have a hard time believing
that the appropriate response to invasion of the Earth is to Forget All
About It, to dump the bodies in a pile of nuclear slag (don't autopsy them,
oh no), and put all the hardware in an unguarded hangar (don't study it, oh
no).  The plot "twists" all hang on the assumption that (a) the last
invasion of the Earth has completely left the minds of everyone, (b) it is
a Good Idea to keep the current threat a secret, but (c) we can still find
people who take it seriously enough to spring enough cash to buy a Cray.

The dialogue is so trite as to be laughable.  My husband and I actually had
a reasonably good time playing the "War of the Worlds" Game.  Call out the
lines of dialogue right before the actors do.  If you get it wrong, take a
sip of champagne.  If you get it right (not too hard, actually), take *two*
sips.  Extra points if it is really stupid. ("Not hangar 18 -- that's
disinformation -- it's in hangar 15.")  My only hope for this series it
that it will sink to such depths of stupidity that it will attract a cult
following of humour buffs.

Mary
Holstege@polya.stanford.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 88 20:08:12 GMT
From: barry@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

holstege@polya.Stanford.EDU (Mary Holstege) writes:
>The dialogue is so trite as to be laughable.

You said it. I can't quite say I saw the premiere. A friend had asked me to
tape it for her, so the TV was on, but I was reading the net, and paying
little attention (I don't multitask well). But, every so often, I'd hear
some bit of dialogue that was so stupid that it would batter right through
my filters and register on my brain. Mind you, I'm used to TV, and have
lately formed a bad habit of having it on while using my computer. It takes
more than average TV drivel to make me take notice. But the dialogue in
this show could cause brain damage.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 02:00:55 GMT
From: garth!smryan@pyramid.com (Steven Ryan)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds (tv)

>I have one question: Is there anyone out there that can watch a show for
>the sheer fun of it and not care about the scientific inaccuracies?  If
>there is anyone out there like this, would you PLEASE write me.  I am
>getting tired of all this...

Near any science fiction (not some of Clarke's stuff) can be torn to pieces
over inconsistencies and inaccuracies. But if the characters or plot or
effects or .... is good enough, it will carry the story through the rough
spots.

The point is some of us don't think WoW-TV does that. Wow-Movie and
WoW-Book did. (It is a 50% probability, at most, that our bacteria can
infect an alien biology--among other things, what if the amino acids are
left-handed?)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 20:23:00 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris) writes:
>Also, aren't the aliens kind of screwed anyways since the very instant
>that the radiation wears off enough, they will get reinfected.

Does the radiation within a body depend upon the half-life of the
radioactive material by which the body was contaminated? If so, it could be
quite a while before the radiation wears off.

Another thing I forgot to mention before. It looked like there was acid (or
some other corrosive substance) leaking out of the barrels which were
punctured by the bullets, and that substance ate through the barrels
containing the aliens. Why did it dissolve the steel of the lower tier of
barrels, but not the upper tier? And why didn't it injure the aliens? Maybe
it was blood (body fluids) from aliens stored in the upper tier? Maybe they
aren't aliens, maybe they're Aliens!

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 17:30:49 GMT
From: sfsup!sgore@att.att.com (+Gore S.)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds (tv)

drwho@bsu-cs.UUCP (Neil Marsh) writes:
>I have one question: Is there anyone out there that can watch a show for
>the sheer fun of it and not care about the scientific inaccuracies?  If
>there is anyone out there like this, would you PLEASE write me.  I am
>getting tired of all this...

I raise my hand for that one.  Not only did I not worry about scientific
inaccuracies; I didn't even compare it with the book! And you know what...

I STILL DIDN'T LIKE IT!!!!

The A-number-1 thing I look for is acting ability and to some extent
special effects.  The acting just has to be good enough that I am not
overly aware that they are just acting.  The lead actors in WotWs didn't
cut it.  And, having just seen the original movie a week ago, I was shocked
that the effects in that movie were BETTER than the ones in the new series!
I found myself thinking, "they should have used the phony laser effect from
the movie!!"

There wasn't too much sheer fun in it for me...

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 22:58:25 GMT
From: mkkuhner@codon1.berkeley.edu (Mary K. Kuhner;335 Mulford)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds (tv)

smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes:
>Near any science fiction (not some of Clarke's stuff) can be torn to
>pieces over inconsistencies and inaccuracies. But if the characters or
>plot or effects or .... is good enough, it will carry the story through
>the rough spots.
>
>The point is some of us don't think WoW-TV does that. Wow-Movie and
>WoW-Book did. (It is a 50% probability, at most, that our bacteria can
>infect an alien biology--among other things, what if the amino acids are
>left-handed?)

I said the same thing on sci.bio once, and it was politely pointed out to
me that just because terrestrial organsisms cannot convert one type of
amino acid (or sugar) to the other doesn't mean that that's a universal
law.

I would think that the really worrisome bugs would come from a large
spacefaring coalition of races, one which had existed a long time.  Real
incentive there for the evolution of microbes with wide host ranges.  (It's
still unlikely, though.)

I might have forgiven WoW-TV any number of science inconsistencies, but I
cannot believe in people who forget the annihilation of cities by aliens.
It's just too hard to put this kind of illogic aside and still
appreciate/identify with the characters.  (By the way, we decided after a
while that the best approach to this movie would have been to turn the
sound off and just watch the violence....)

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 88 11:37:07 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris) writes:
>about it.  It was not entered into the history books so only those who
>were alive during the invasion would remember it.  People sort of forgot
>it and younger people, like the microbiologist, weren't alive to know
>anything about the invasion except for stories their parents may have told
>them.  The government was so embarrassed about their failure that they
>just wanted it erased from the history books.

Is this meant to be serious?

In the film, most of the major cities of the world are reduced to heaps of
rubble. Vast areas of countryside were turned into wasteland. How come
no one noticed?

Compared to the devastation caused by the aliens, World war two was minor
urban re-development. Can anyone seriously imagine covering up WWII?

Give me something more believable, like two headed aliens with three arms,
time machines and infinite improbability drives.

>  I also thought that for a series premiere it was pitiful.  I bet H.G.
>Wells is turning over in his grave over this one.  

Whirling Herbert you mean? he drilled his way out of his coffin when the
original film was made.... :->

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 21:48:23 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds (tv)

zgel05@flyer.uucp () writes:
>I missed the first part of the show, and putting the rest together with
>bits an pieces, have a question.
>
>It is obvious that this series does not begin at the end of the classic
>movie of the same title.  Specifically, nobody in the public seems to be
>aware of the existence of the aliens, which couldn't be from the titanic
>damage and struggles in the movie.

As you probably gathered from Blackwood's dialogue, the attack was 35 years
ago (1953, same date as the movie). His family was killed by the aliens (at
that time referred to as "Martians").

I don't know how much you missed, so I'll gloss over some of it. There was
a terrorist attack on an army base. In the process, some barrels containing
supposedly-dead aliens were damaged, and the aliens escaped.  They killed
the terrorists and used them for hosts. They then took the terrorists'
truck and loaded all of the other barrels containing aliens in suspended
animation onto it. They also took the electronic equipment with which the
terrorists had planned to take over a communications satellite (to
broadcast their demands). That's what they were using to contact their
homeworld (note that Norton [Norman? Norbert?] never disclosed the
location). Then they set off to look for more host bodies, a purpose nicely
served by the delta troops. (I'll assume you came in by this time.)

Apparently there is some knowledge of the alien attack. It would be foolish
to say that everyone forgot something so widespread and/or devastating.
Also, no one tells Blackwood that he's insane when he brings it up. They
only tell him he's insane when he says the aliens are still alive.

A couple of things that bugged me about it:

Why, when Blackwood was doing his search for extraterrestrial intelligence
and not actively fighting aliens, did he claim he needed a microbiologist?
It seems the person to "daydream" alien life forms would be a
xenobiologist, exobiologist, or cryptozoologist (all fairly similar terms
I've heard tossed about). Granted, when it got to the point of combating
aliens on a cellular level, a microbiologist was real handy, but...

When she was collecting samples, why didn't the woman have some sort of
sample case? It sure looked like she smeared the goo in her compact. I
guess I can accept that she lost her gear in the fight, and give her credit
for improvising.

Why didn't the computer genius figure out that the signals were in trinary,
rather than binary? We, of course, had the additional clue that the aliens
were tripedal and all, but he should have been able to distingush three
tones, rather than the expected two.

And a real nitpick: what happened to Blackwood's bike? When Charlene picked
him up, he just got off his bike and left it. No one who owns a bike does
that! He should have at least locked it up. Dumb scripting.

Has anyone else ever seen Roger Dean's designs for the tripedal attack
vehicles? I think they were shown in one of his "Magnetic Storm" books.
Apparently much truer to the original story, but the special effects folks
in 1953 couldn't have done them that way. I think the idea was for a new
play based on _War of the Worlds_.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 24 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 305

Today's Topics:

		  Books - McCaffrey & Norwood (2 msgs) &
                          Zelazny & Space Combat (10 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 88 19:12:57 GMT
From: ut6y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Shappe's Spoiler Review: _DragonsDawn_ (second attempt)

			  Shappe's Spoiler Review
			       _DragonsDawn_
		      a new novel, by Anne McCaffrey

Warning:

The following article may contain important plot information about the work
reviewed, or other related works.  Any reader who thinks such advance
information may spoil his or her appetite for the work or works in question
should do whatever necessary to stop reading this article as soon as
possible.

The author assumes no responsibility for spoiled appetites.

It has become common practice for authors of long series to start those
series in media res (literally, in the middle of things), then go back to
the beginning later.  Asimov has done it with _Prelude to Foundation;
Harrison has done it with _A Stainless Steel Rat is Born_.  Even some of
the Star Trek novels recently have dealt with situations set before what
was broadcast on television.  Now, Anne McCaffrey has followed suit.

Oh, has she ever.  

I have long been a fan of the _DragonRiders of Pern_ heptology, and from my
very first reading of the main trilogy--_DragonFlight_, _DragonQuest_, and
_The White Dragon_, I have wondered exactly what brought mankind to the
planet Pern.  What could have motivated people to migrate to an out of the
way, mineral poor backwater?  And what kind of people must they have been
to have survived and prevailed over the troubles that the wandering Red
Star brought every 200 years?  Now, Anne McCaffrey answers that question.
_DragonsDawn_ spans a 9 year stretch, beginning just as the three ships of
the Pern Colonial Expedition, commanded by war hero Admiral Paul Benden, is
entering the Rukbat system.  The Federated Sentient Planets is recovering
from a long space-war, and many of the battle weary have chosen to forego
the technology-ridden, bureaucratic FSP in favor of the simpler life.
Pern, out of the way, lacking in the quantities of minerals necessary for
heavy technology, but ideally suited for carbon based life, seemed perfect
for a agricultural colony.

McCaffrey once again works her magic, from the very start, with her
characterizations.  McCaffrey has always had a way of making likable (and
occasionally loathable), three dimensional characters, and _DragonsDawn_ is
no exception.  Unlike her previous seven books, which habitually focus
strongly on, at most, three or four characters, here manages to juggle no
fewer than eight primary characters, doing justice to all.

Neither have her descriptive powers failed her.  Once again, as she had
done seven times before, McCaffrey managed to teleport me /between/ to her
imaginary beautiful world.  This time, she had some help, in the form of
experts in astronomy and (I believe) geology, in forming her descriptions.
Finally, Anne manages something which not all authors do: her story is
perfectly continuous with what has gone "before".  All the descriptions
given here fit with what few glimpses the Pernese of 2000 years later have
managed to view.

And finally, she has left the story open ended.  Now, those of you who
despise sequels should not start despairing yet.  After all, McCaffrey left
the original stories that were later to become the novel _DragonFlight_
open ended, as well, and that was before she had any intention of
continuing the series further.  Such open-endedness is necessary to give
the story the a properly "historical" feel--to give the sense that, whether
more is written or not, the story still goes on.  This is not, therefore, a
fault in my opinion, and I find myself seriously torn between wanting to
see her quit while she's ahead, and continue ad infinitum.

Many people I have talked to have expressed disappointment with McCaffrey's
previous Pern offering, _Moreta:DragonLady of Pern_, and I have, by and
large , agreed that it is the weakest of the seven (for the record, I am
discounting _Nerilka's Story_, which I have not read, and therefore would
not criticize).  McCaffrey has certainly redeemed herself with this novel,
which kept me reading well past my bedtime (not something I usually
do--call me strange), completely unable to escape.  I give it my highest,
slavering recommendation.

Michael Scott Shappe
UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
...!rochester!cornell!vax5!ut6y

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 88 14:35:15 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Book to avoid

				Time Police
			      Warren Norwood

A book to avoid.  As the title tells you, somebody has discovered time
travel and set up an organisation to police history and make sure nothing
goes wrong.  But...

[mild spoiler warning]

Other than the idea, which of course has previously been used by Poul
Anderson, this book has nothing to recommend it.  The writing is terrible;
the plot looks like the result of remedial crochet work; the characters are
uniformly negligible.  The author gets into an unresolvable plot screw-up
every other chapter, and gets out of it by having the hero black out or by
changing the subject.

Save your money.  In fact, since the book has 'Volume 1' menacingly visible
on the front cover, you can save a lot of money.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 88 22:47:24 GMT
From: elron@ihlpm.att.com (Gary F. York)
Subject: Re: Book to avoid

I was going to let this pass, hoping that others would be moved to offer a
word or two of redemption; but I guess it's up to me.

sjost1@cisunx.UUCP (Steven J. Owens) writes:
>firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>
>	Time Police
>	Warren Norwood
>
>A book to avoid.  As the title tells you, somebody has discovered
>time travel and set up an organisation to police history and make
>sure nothing goes wrong.  But...
>
>Save your money.  In fact, since the book has 'Volume 1' menacingly
>visible on the front cover, you can save a lot of money.

It's really not at all that bad!

Perhaps it has something to do with what one has come to expect of an
author: Norwood's previous offerings have been particularly complex.  They
have offered a great deal but also required a great deal from the reader.

With _Time_Police_, Norwood is clearly writing a more accessible work,
perhaps hoping to broaden his reader base, perhaps just taking it easy.
Yes it's a series, as have been his previous offerings and this first book
does seem a bit light-weight.  Nevertheless, I finished it with a feeling
of pleasant satisfaction and with full intention of purchasing the next
volume.

In conclusion, I should say that there did seem to be a few suggestions
that the, shall we say, "depth", of the work might increase as the series
develops.  We'll see -- I'm looking forward to it.

Gary F. York
IHP 1B440, Bell Labs
Naperville, Il.		
ihnp4!ihlpm!elron

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 07:32:39 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (tom uffner)
Subject: Re: Getting to Corwin's Universe

john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) writes:
>allbery@ncoast (Brandon S. Allbery) writes:
>> (1) Did the Courts exist before the Pattern?
>> (3) If the courts DID exist, what kept them stable?  (If it was the
>> Logrus, then the question moves up one level: who/what created the
>> Logrus?  If not, then what?)
>
>Perhaps the Courts "just happened", i.e. a random twitch of Chaos that
>just lasted long enough for Dworkin to nail it down by inscribing the
>Pattern.

The courts did in fact exist before the pattern. there were other points of
stability as well.  Dworkin inscribed the pattern on one.  These islands
apparently form and break up randomly from time to time.  See the various
sections of the chronicles where the creation is described.

My guess is that logrus is a `special item' of the same order as the jewel
which either occurred naturally on one of these stable islands or was
placed there, thereby making the site permanant.  Then at some point the
courts (i.e. the palace, etc.) were built there.

Arpa: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu
Uucp: ...{unidot,uunet}!cfg!udel!udccvax1!tom

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 88 02:07:23 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Realistic Space Combat

James L. Blue writes:
>    I am interested in what real space combat might be like, perhaps in
>about a hundred years or so from now, without breaking any laws of physics
>or assuming "magic" such as hyper-drive. Has there been any discussion of
>this in the past? Are there useful reference books? Are any SF books of
>interest?

Try _Ensign Flandy_ by Poul Anderson.  While he does have "hyperdrive" in
the book, the space battle scene does not use it (as far as I remember).
This is all ship to ship battling.  Basically, his battle has smart
missiles and lasers.  Some of the other Flandry novels may also have
similar battles.

Note that _Ensign Flandry_ was written in the 60's (or early 70's) and does
not make as much use of computers as a book written now would.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 88 16:34:16 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
>blue@SED.CEEE.NBS.GOV ("James L. Blue") writes:
>>     I am interested in what real space combat might be like, perhaps in
>> about a hundred years or so from now, without breaking any laws of
>> physics or assuming "magic" such as hyper-drive.
>
>_People_of_the_Wind_, and other stories by Poul Anderson. They have
>hyperdrive but use the usual mass-warps-hyperdrive scam. Some of the
>stories involve hypercombat tactics, too, and they are also interesting.

Miracles is miracles.

>_Marooned_in_Realtime_, by Vernor Vinge. Relativistic battle with what
>amounts to a niven stasis field and nuclear weapons.

If a stasis field ain't a miracle, I don't know what is.

Want something that doesn't violate physics-as-we-know-it, at all?  Okay,
it's out there.

Stay away from the JEPournelle/David Drake "There Will Be War" mafia.
They've all sold their souls for a pot of message, and the books, even when
they don't get into magic weapons/drives/defenses, are crocks where minor
matters like characters and believable backgrounds are concerned.

Your best plan is probably Ben Bova.  Try PRIVATEERS, or THE KINSMAN SAGA.
The latter is shy on combat stuff, but what's there is damn good, and
what's more it's the only *intelligent* pro-SDI book I've ever read.  With
much more reservation I can also mention PEACEKEEPERS, which has serious
flaws, but I won't tell you more because I won't do a spoiler on my own
bloody review (in the upcoming OtherRealms, natch).

The mind nags me, I'm sure there's something by Heinlein -- probably one or
two of the "juveniles."  Some of the technology and terminology may be
outdated, but (excepting HAVE SPACE SUIT and TUNNEL) nobody's touched those
books for sheer plausibility.  I'd say probably SPACE CADET or BETWEEN
PLANETS...
 

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 04:45:16 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

djo@pbhyc (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>Stay away from the JEPournelle/David Drake "There Will Be War" mafia.

  Pournelle's good buddy Larry Niven did an amusing space battle in The
Protector. I wouldn't call it realistic for a hundred years from now, but
it eschewed magic, unless you consider Bussard ram drives magic.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 00:34:40 GMT
From: chip!nusdhub!rwhite@ucsd.edu (Robert C. White Jr.)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

Actually, I remember a series of books about a "hero" type technician and
how he got into a single series of interesting scrapes.  The last book was
something like "Wheel" or something.  I don't have the info.  While they
had a "very fast drive" it did not, in fact, go FTL or anything.  They used
missiles and warheads to fight in space instead of "horrible beams of
un-immaginable power" or something.

***Spoiler***

The good guy's secret weapon in the third book is a cargo ship full of
cannon balls, with a whole row of inductive launchers down one side and
thrusters down the other.  Since it would produce a whole "plane" of moving
masses which could not all be blown up with anti-missile-missiles, and the
ships they were aiming at couldn't manuver fast enough, the bad guys were
filled full-o-holes.

All well done, and error free.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 14:51:57 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

You might want to check out Brin's "Startide Rising".  There's "magic" of
several kinds in the story (both hyperspace and psi) but the space battle
as _Streaker_ leaves the Kithrup system is absolutely incredible, and
doesn't involve any of this.  (Except perhaps the ship drives, which were
probably reactionless, but you could do the same thing with a reaction
drive -- say, Robert Forward's antimatter rocket.

Mike Van Pelt
Unisys, Silicon Valley
vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 88 12:16:25 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

>>_People_of_the_Wind_, and other stories by Poul Anderson. They have
>>hyperdrive but use the usual mass-warps-hyperdrive scam.

> Miracles is miracles.

I don't really understand the point of this comment.

I know you have read _People_of_the_Wind_. The battle for Avalon is
entirely fought out near the surface of the planet using non-relativistic,
non-magic, normal space techniques. The Hyperdrive is, for this excersize,
simply a technique for getting the combatants to the same place at the same
time.

>>Some of the stories involve hypercombat tactics, too, and they are also
>>interesting.

...and not relevent to the battle for Avalon. They could have used
generation ships to get there. Call Avalon "People's Mars" and you don't
even need that.  The battle is totally relevant to James' question. It's in
there.  

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 00:37:35 GMT
From: jkiparsk@csli.stanford.edu (Jonathan Kiparsky)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

rwhite@nusdhub.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes:
>Actually, I remember a series of books about a "hero" type technician and
>how he got into a single series of intresting scrapes.  The last book was
>something like "Wheel" or something.  I don't have the info.

I do. The To the Stars trilogy, by Harry Harrison. One of his few decent
works, recently published as one book(To The Stars).  Basic plot: Earth in
a mid-future(few hundred years, many minor technological improvements, only
a few major). The first book is set in England, with a serious UPPER
CLASS/lower class system. TThe hero is a typical upper-clas-type, snotty
and ignorant, until he happens on the truth. A very nicely-done
underground/spy story evolves(his brother is high in the Security
organization) The second and third books you can read for yourselves,
there's too many spoilers.  

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 88 13:48:02 GMT
From: ccastmr@pyr.gatech.edu (Mark Reed)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #289
To: peter@sugar.uu.net

  Piers Anthony's _Bio_of_a_Space_Tyrant_ series presents a realistic view
of space combat.  The series is fairly realistic all around... no
hyperdrive, or united Earth... although the premise of the Earthly nations
directly translating into planetary governments is a bit on the silly side.

Mark Reed
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastmr
ARPA: ccastmr@pyr.gatech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 22:59:33 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: realistic space combat

>Piers Anthony's _Bio_of_a_Space_Tyrant_ series presents a realistic view
>of space combat.  The series is fairly realistic all around... no
>hyperdrive, or united Earth...

However, the single assumption the series makes is the discovery of
"gravity focussing." This forms the basis of most of their technology, and
(through some hand-waving) is the source of the antimatter for their power.
That sort of counts as magic.

>...although the premise of the Earthly nations directly translating into
>planetary governments is a bit on the silly side.

Done for reasons of social commentary, although it got a bit obtrusive for
my taste. ("Halfcal and the Dominant Republic", indeed.)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 12:45:00 GMT
From: hedger@inmet.inmet.com
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

It doesn't have any get down rock'em sock'em warfare in it, but check out
'The Mote in God's Eye' by Niven/Pournelle.....this is an excellent book.

Keith Hedger
ihnp4!inmet!hedger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 24 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 306

Today's Topics:

		  Miscellaneous - Conventions (2 msgs) &
                                  SF Predictions (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 19:36:48 GMT
From: zermelo@eddie.mit.edu (L Richard Duffy)
Subject: Readercon 2 (with apologia and details)

Up-front confession: this is a convention announcement.  If the following
looks like long-winded propaganda, it's only because we (the committee
organizing the convention) felt a need to expound some of the motivating
ideas behind Readercon in a non-perfunctory way.  (Also it's a small
convention and we could really use more members!;^) You're of course free
to use `n' if you find it annoying, or to respond to the polemics while
ignoring the actual convention.
 
The following is excerpted from our upcoming program book; below that are
the convention details (including planned panels) for anyone interested:
 
                 "Transcending Genre (What We're All About)"
                               by Robert Colby
 
Readercon is more or less what its name makes it out to be, a conference
that explores the different areas of imaginative literature *as*
literature, and one which does not confine its definition of that
literature to that which is published and marketed as SF, fantasy, or
horror.  What I'd like to talk about are the ways in which we'd like to
*expand* our appeal.
 
How so?  In a just world, who would you *really* expect to see on the same
book-rack, J.G. Ballard and Edgar Rice Burroughs, or J.G. Ballard and
William S. Burroughs?  Philip K. Dick and John Norman, or Philip K. Dick
and Franz Kafka?  Gene Wolfe and Jerry Pournelle, or Gene Wolfe and Jorge
Luis Borges?  Those who look at things mostly in terms of categories and
traditions will opt for the former groupings (they get sold in the
"SF/Fantasy" rack, are brought out by the same imprints, and may well have
been published in the same magazines); those who judge writers by their
*vision* will see a higher logic in the latter.
 
The problem here is that SF/Fantasy conventions, to date, have been run as
though the works of people like Burroughs (William S.), Pynchon, Kafka,
Borges, et al. either didn't exist (not part of the gang, after all), or
were not relevant to matters at hand.  Worse still is how we see the
readers of such authors.  Although they're reading some of the most
genuinely *imaginative* world literature of the past and present, many SF
people see them as `mundanes': no better than Judith Krantz fans, pale and
dull creatures compared to the enlightened minds lapping up this week's hot
trilogy.  What offends me about all this (and I do understand how this
ghetto mentality developed, believe me) is that I could easily have been
one of them.
 
Had I not stumbled into the reading of SF and fantasy in early adolescence,
I doubt very much that I would have ended up reading mostly best-sellers or
spy thrillers.  I probably would have concentrated on writers like Kafka,
Poe, and Orwell, as well as the better realist writers.  Eventually someone
would have turned me on to Wolfe, or Delany, or LeGuin, or some such.  And
when I went over to that "Science Fiction/Fantasy" rack looking for another
injection of this strange new substance, what do you think I'd have found?
 
Unless I was especially lucky that day, I would have been assaulted by the
collective marketing schemes of an industry seemingly determined to
convince the casual browser that nothing of interest to an intelligent
adult could possibly be found beneath these covers.  I would likely have
written off my experience as an isolated exception to the rule.  And that
would have been unfair to a fair portion of what was on display that day,
and would have robbed me of some reading experiences that no literate
person should be deprived of.
 
If this could easily have happened to me, then how many demanding, critical
readers, hungry for genuine stimulation and armed with well-oiled bullshit
detectors, is this field missing?  People who would love the best of this
literature if that best were marketed as though it had been written for
grown-ups (measured by chronology or state of mind) with taste?  Not
necessarily `fans', just people who like a variety of good things in their
literary diet?
 
We would like to *find* these people.  To do so would reshape the basic
idea of *conventions* far more radically than simply taking fandom at large
and deciding which elements to focus on.  It could create a community that
might actually begin to do something about the state of affairs outlined
above.  Who knows, some brave bookstore of the future might open an
"Imaginative Literature" section some day, a section which would be the
province of real visionaries, whose contents would not be predictable and
which would startle and provoke.
 
[All of that notwithstanding, we also intend to have fun!  Just ask anyone
who's been to either of the two Kirk Poland Memorial Bad Prose Competitions
we've held (the last at Boskone this past winter)].  Our current flyer
reads:
 
The conference on imaginative literature, second edition
                                       
			 ["Readercon 2" logo here]

			  November 18 - 20, 1988
  
             Lowell Hilton, Lowell, Massachusetts (508-452-1200)
                                       
     (25 miles northwest of Boston; accessible by public transportation)
 
                      Guest of Honor:  Samuel R. Delany
	       Past Master:  Theodore Sturgeon (in memoriam)
 
		     Algis Budrys    David G. Hartwell
      George Alec Effinger    Barry B. Longyear    Patricia McKillip
	James Patrick Kelly    James Morrow    Lawrence Watt-Evans
       Terry Bisson    Ellen Kushner    Paul Park    Terri Windling
  Richard Bowker    Jeffrey Carver    Craig Shaw Gardner    John Morressy
     Geary Gravel    Paul Hazel    Steven Popkes    Darrell Schweitzer
	  Paul DiFilippo    Alexander Jablokov    Elissa Malcohn
		      Susan Palwick    Delia Sherman
   Scott Edelman    J.F. Rivkin    Charles C. Ryan    D. Alexander Smith
Kathryn Cramer    Martha Millard    Joe Shea (Joey Zone)    Stanley Wiater
Janice M. Eisen   Scott E. Green   Stan Leventhal   Resa Nelson   Sarah Smith
Bernadette Bosky  Lise Eisenberg   Arthur Hlavaty   Vernon Hyles   Fred Lerner
 
                           . . . and more to come!
 
   "Readercon is the sort of convention all readers of SF should support."
                                - Gene Wolfe
                                       
            "Pretty much my favorite convention." - Mark Ziesing
 
                                       
  " . . . Judging from the program . . . probably the best con in America."
                               - John Shirley
 
(on other side)
 
(A con flyer that lists its entire prospective program?  What better
advertising is there?)
 
Main Programming Track
Firing the Canon: The Public Perception of F and SF.
See Dick Run. See Jane Reveal Depths of the Human Condition:  The Juvenile 
    as Literature.
The Notion of Lives on Paper: Self and Science Fiction, 1929-1988.
Elfland uber Alles: Hidden Racism and Fascism in F and SF.
People I Can't Read, and Wish I Could.
Personality Crisis: Publishers, Editors, and Imprint Identities.
You've Crossed the Reality Border; Anything to Declare?
Maximum R & D: Rock 'n' Roll and SF.
Out of the Bomb Shelter, Into the Greenhouse: Writing About the Coming
    Ecological Crisis.
Really Heart-Rending: The Horror Novel as Literature.
How Does a Book Review Mean?
Writers' Workshops: Friend or Menace?
Hugo Gernsback, Chicken Farmer: If SF Had Never Been Ghettoized.
Who Cares: Creating Sympathetic Characters.
Unfortunately Still Too Sensitive a Topic For a Silly Title: Alternate 
    Sexual Lifestyles in F and SF.
Is Chip Delany the Woody Allen of SF? (or, I Really Like Your Books . . .
    Especially the Earlier, Simpler Ones . . .)
What About _Dhalgren_, Then?
Caviar: A Ted Sturgeon Appreciation.
plus the usual (and perhaps some unusual) GoH stuff.
 
Late Night Programming (8:00 PM and later; 10:00 AM - 11:00 AM)
The Third Kirk Poland Memorial Science Fiction and Fantasy Bad Prose
    Competition.
Lifestyles of the Poor and Obscure.
The Bohemian Poetry Club.
The Alternate History Tag-Team Wrestling Match Planning Session.
Bookaholics Anonymous Meeting.
In the Future, Everyone Will Be Obnoxious For Five Minutes.
plus dramatic readings of short stories by Sturgeon.
 
Mini-Track
Readings (fiction, poetry, and critical papers), discussion groups, 
    workshops (including a writers' workshop led by Barry B. Longyear, and
    Elissa Malcohn's character creation workshop), a book auction, and our
    Meet the Pros(e) Reception.
 
Plus: If You Love X, You'll Love Y (special dinner-time discussion groups).
 
And a dealers room devoted almost entirely to books and magazines. (No
costume events, weapons, movies, or video.  Unfortunately no art show for
now.)
                                       
For more info, you may call or write:
                                       
READERCON
P.O. Box 6138
Boston, MA 02209
617-576-0415 (evenings, weekends)

or e-mail me (see below).  In the interest of speed, we have a "response
form" which I can e-mail for you to print out and snail-mail.

zermelo@eddie.mit.edu
{allegra|ihnp4}!mit-eddie!zermelo
zermelo%eddie @ MITVMA.BITNET    

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 23:44:56 GMT
From: versatc!datack!silicon@mips.mips.com (Silicon Convention)
Subject: Silicon '88

				SILICON '88
		   A Science Fantasy Fiction Convention
			  November 25 - 27, 1988
			Red Lion Inn, San Jose, Ca.

   Silicon will be held at the San Jose Red Lion Inn on November 25-27,
1988.  Writer GOH is Jack Chalker. Artist GOH is Phil Foglio. Toastmaster
is Robert Silverberg.

OTHER GUESTS
   Other Guests as of June 1, 1988 include Ken Macklin, Alex Sheikman,
James Killus, Janet Gluckman, M. Coleman Easton, Shelly Clift, Paul O.
Williams, Sydney Joyce Van Scyoc, Steve Perrin, Heather Gladney, Jim Aikin,
Max, Greg Espinoza, Tad Williams, John McLaughlin, John Shirley, Michael
Reaves and David Belden.

DEALERS INFORMATION
   There are a total of 63 tables in the Silicon Dealers' Room, containing
the finest merchandise in Known Space. Tables are 8' long, and each table
comes with one membership. 

ART SHOW INFORMATION
   The Silicon Art Show will have 4' x 4' panels available on a first-come,
first-serve basis. There will be an Art Auction on Sunday with Phil Foglio
as Chief Auctioneer!

JAPANESE ANIMATION
   The Japanese Animation Room will be open 24-hours for your enjoyment
provided by the Japanese Animation Archives. The Japanese Animation Program
Book will be on sale for a nominal charge in the Dealers' Room.

MOVIES
   There will be movies shown in the Video Room 24 hours during the run of
the Convention, featuring your favorite science-fiction, fantasy, and
horror films.

ASTEROID AL'S
   Phil Foglio's fabulous bar comes to earth for one all-too brief instant,
along with it's most famous/infamous patron; Buck Godot will be there in
person!

LASER TAG
   Silicon will be hosting a Laser Tag tournament. Loaner Equipment will be
available on a limited basis.

PROGRAMMING
   Current programming calls for panels and seminars on a variety of
interesting topics, autograph sessions, and readings of selected works.

COSTUME CONTEST
   Silicon will be having a Costume Contest on Saturday night. Come and
were your favorite set of duds.

VIDEO ARCADE
   The Silicon Video Arcade will feature over a dozen of your favorite
video-games including the ever-popular Gauntlet II.

For more information:
Silicon
P.O Box 8029
San Jose, Ca. 95155
(408) 993-0140
uunet!altnet!datack!silicon

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 22:02:22 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

I'm sorry, my cat died today, and I forgot what I was going to write.  In
GARGANTUA AND PANTAGRUEL, Rabelais foreshadowed television as a crystal box
within which entertainments could be seen.  It was common for those at his
Abbey of Theleme to sit around it during the evenings.  I believed that
Geoffrey Ashe had pointed this out, but I cannot find it in his chapter on
Rabelais in DO WHAT YOU WILL.  And today I do not have the energy to dig
through Rabelais for the reference, much as I enjoy his crude and refined
wit.  I hope this is some use to you.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 23:06:03 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

spw@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steve Wartik) writes:
>My sister is doing research for a piece for Omni Magazine that will
>include predictions by science fiction writers that have become reality.
>Jules Verne's predictions on submarines, and H. G. Wells' stories, come
>quickly to mind, but neither of us is intimately familiar with them; also,
>she's looking for suggestions on writers from all periods of history --
>from the beginnings of civilization to the

Another fun question!  The most famous prediction in modern times, or at
least the one that received the most press, was Arthur C. Clarke's use of
communication satellites: others will know the details that I don't, I'm
sure.  Greek myths included stories of manned flight (Daedalus) and
robots--the bronze man of Crete--hmm, interesting that they are both from
the same area, Crete; I seem to remember a classic age flight to the moon,
as well.  Gack.  This is a question that will pop an answer into my head at
irregular, not to mention inconvenient, times, for the next week!

Don't forget to go the opposite direction: how many failed!  For example,
the umpteen-hundred stories about water canals on Mars, the tropics of
Venus, etc.  And the predictions we don't want to happen: Vonnegut's
WELCOME TO THE MONKEY HOUSE!

Your main problem is that modern writers tend to look FAR ahead, so there
is no telling which ones are going to be true.

hal

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 16:18:38 GMT
From: bucsb!boreas@buita.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

spw@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steve Wartik) writes:
>My sister is doing research for a piece for Omni Magazine that will
>include predictions by science fiction writers that have become reality.

Hmmm.  Lessee, in _Oath_of_Fealty_, Niven&Pournelle mentioned that Robert
Heinlein predicted/invented sliding walkways ("The Roads Must Roll"), the
waldo ("Waldo"), and the waterbed.  (I've never noticed where he did that
last one.  Anyone know??)

Also, I'd say that the railgun belongs to Heinlein, although his idea was
somewhat more peaceful (induction catapult, from _The__Moon_Is_a_Harsh_
Mistress_).  (Disclaimer: I'm not sure whether railguns were Before
Heinlein or not, nor if they're as similar as my lack of knowledge makes
them seem. :-) (Anyone know whether a workable induction catapult is
possible??)

Michael Justice
BITNet: ccmaj@buacca
ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:...!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 15:05:53 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: SF Predictions

spw@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steve Wartik) writes: 
> My sister is doing research for a piece for Omni Magazine that will
> include predictions by science fiction writers that have become reality.
> Jules Verne's predictions on submarines, and H. G. Wells' stories, come
> quickly to mind, but neither of us is intimately familiar with them;

Sort of lowers my expectations for the article when the author admits (via
proxy, in this case) a lack of familiarity with the subject.

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> no science fiction predictions have ever come true.  Science fiction is
> an order of magnitude more melodramatic than reality.  In "Waldo" the
> protagonist not only employs remote effectors to overcome his handicap,
> but in the end uses psychic powers to cure his handicap, in his personal
> satellite palace.  The differences between real space travel and every
> fictional tale of space travel hardly need recounting here.  Computers
> have not yet spontaneously developed intelligence and taken over the
> planet (I think).  And so on.

hal@garth.UUCP (Hal Broome) writes:
> For example, the umpteen-hundred stories about water canals on Mars, the
> tropics of Venus, etc.

These comments are only fair if you're going to treat sf as a "predictor".
But it's not a predictor, really, it's an extrapolator.  Most stories don't
claim that this is what *the* future *will* be (prediction), just what *a*
future *might* be (extrapolation).  And an article on "sf extrapolations
that have come true" sounds tamer, I suppose.

Neither does it seem fair to me to point at "failed predictions" that were
valid extrapolations based on faulty knowledge of the time -- e.g., the
canals of Mars.

And, as Tim pointed out, science fiction (all fiction?) is by and large
more melodramatic than reality.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 31 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 307

Today's Topics:

		     Books - Space Battles (4 msgs) &
                             Foreign Works (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 00:51:22 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>>_People_of_the_Wind_, and other stories by Poul Anderson. They have
>>hyperdrive but use the usual mass-warps-hyperdrive scam. Some of the
>>stories involve hypercombat tactics, too, and they are also interesting.
>
>The mind nags me, I'm sure there's something by Heinlein -- probably one
>or two of the "juveniles."  Some of the technology and terminology may be
>outdated, but (excepting HAVE SPACE SUIT and TUNNEL) nobody's touched
>those books for sheer plausibility.  I'd say probably SPACE CADET or
>BETWEEN PLANETS...

[Not to mention some of the planetary environments; recall PODKAYNE OF MARS
has the heroine on Venus for a time....]

I don't believe so; at least, I don't remember it.  I *do* remember a
comment by Lazarus Long in TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE to the effect that
interstellar war was logistically impossible even with "magic" drives....

Brandon S Allbery
uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
allbery%ncoast@hal.cwru.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 16:59:40 GMT
From: duggan@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Paul C. Duggan)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

 One of my favorite (for being "realistic" - not necessarily for being
exciting) space combats is from Larry Niven's _Protector_.  It takes place
between Bussard ramjets at relativistic speeds and great distances.  Some
of the neat touches that seem to get ignored by others include the delay in
seeing anything happen to a ship several light hours behind you, the
extreme fragility of space ships ( I think the good guys throw gravel into
the Pak ships ramscoop) and the LOOONG time it take to maneuver or change
course

Unless, of course, you have a neutron star to make a hasty heading change
around!

Actually, Niven makes one "magic" item - a stasis field generator, though
it only makes for neat weapons (like bombs made from higly unstable
elements) and doesn't affect the "look & feel" of the combat.

On a side note, a good realistic space combat game(s) are Triplanetary and
Mayday, both from GDW and both out of print :-( (vector physics lives!)

Paul Duggan 

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 19:27:54 GMT
From: rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

duggan@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Paul C. Duggan) writes:
> One of my favorite (for being "realistic" - not necessarily for being
>exciting) space combats is from Larry Niven's _Protector_.  [...] Unless,
>of course, you have a neutron star to make a hasty heading change around!

This same neutron star has a small problem with the laws of conservation of
energy and momentum (the rifleshots).  In fact, if there is *any* story out
there where Niven has handled either a neutron star or a black hole
correctly, I'd like to hear about it.

Rob Carriere

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 21:01:28 GMT
From: jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum)
Subject: Re: WAR...IN...SPAAAACE!

Joe Haldeman's Forever War gives a good feel for interstellar combat
without FTL drives.  Everything takes a very long time... at least from the
point of view of people on earth.

Jeremy Teitelbaum

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 04:46:13 GMT
From: herve@cvl.umd.edu (Jean-Yves Herve')
Subject: french sf/fantasy

ded@kossy.jhuapl.edu.UUCP (Don Davis) writes:
>A more general question.  My local French book store informed me that SF
>is not very popular in France and thus they couldn't supply me with French
>language SF.  The best I've been able to do is an Asterix comic book.
>
>Do any of you know of a source of French SF (untranslated)?

A few days ago, someone asked for French sf/fantasy titles. I typed the
following list, but for some unknown reason, I wasn't able to e_mail it as
expected. Let's hope this time it will work out.

Just one comment on the "the French don't like sf" line: as I say later,
"hard-sf" and "heroic fantasy" are not French styles. But the translations
of US books have a reasonable sales/critics succes. For example (I think
I'm going to regret this one..), in 86, Asimov's "Fundation Edge" ("la
Fondation Foudroyee") was ranked 4th on a list of the book of the year
(Marguerite Duras' "l'Amant" was 2nd, B-H Levy's "le Diable en Tete" 5th,
and Raymond Aron's "Memoires" around 15th : good neighborhood).
 
 What? Did anybody say "Jerry Lewis"? 

Actually, Asimov allways had very good French translators and, in my mind,
the French version are, by far, superior to the originals.  Two other
authors with good/superlative translations : Poe (see later) and Lovecraft.

Poor translation: Tolkien's LotR

Here are some French SF/Fantasy books I could remember (when I could, I
gave the publisher (editeur). If needed, I can probably find references for
the others too. Just ask).

N.B.1: the following books are "good" as in "good literature". Nobody in
France writes books comparable to Asimov's , Heinlein's, Clark's ....

N.B.2: there is no qualitative order in the lists.

Science-Fiction:

if you haven't tried yet (and appreciate old stuff, like Wells'): 

Jules Verne:  "de la Terre a` la Lune" and ... (I just cannot remember the
                 title of the second volume, I think it is ...) "Autour de
                 la Lune" 
              "20,000 lieues sous les mers" The vilain/hero (I suppose you 
                 know that vilain sounds *stupid* in French when applied to
                 anybody > 7 years old) appears in "l'Ile Mysterieuse",
                 even if this last book isn't really SF.

Gustave Le Rouge: "Le Mysterieux docteur Cornelius" including "le
                   prisonnier de la planete Mars" and other novels/stories
                   editeur: Laffont/Bouquins (good/cheap collection) The
                   guy is still considered as a sub-Verne ("Jules Verne des
                   midinettes"), but has his afficionados in France.  These
                   books are not hard-sf, but very readable.
 
The next 2 books, I would rather call "anticipation" (like "1984" for
instance)

Rene' Barjavel:  "Ravages"
                 ed: Denoel/Presence du Futur (probably the main sf
                     publisher in France, but mainly translations)
 
Robert Merle:    "Malevil"
                 ed: Folio
                 deals with a post nuclear war world

Now, here is some "real" sf:

Michel Jeury:  "les yeux geants"
               ed: Press Pocket
               kind of "French Dick" (... I mean, as in Philip K. )
             
Pierre Pillon: "L'enfant du 5e Nord"
               thriller  mixing computer and medical worlds

Pierre Pelot:  "Delirium Circus"

Fantasy:

First, there is no such thing as fantasy in French: it is called
"fantastique" and it includes any kind of literature where anybody deals
with something bizarre (devil,witch,fear,his own soul...). So, here are
some representants:

To begin, some of the "romantic era" stuff (XIXieme century). It is near of
Stolker's (sp? I mean, the guy who wrote "Dracula") style: soft
horror/fantasy.  If you like this kind of books, all the following are
*great* (and the writers are really some of the all-time best French
autors)

Theophile Gautier:  "Contes Fantastiques"
                    ed: Garnier-Flamarion  or  Folio
                       
Villiers de l'Isle Adam: "l'Eve Future"
                         "Contes cruels"
                         ed: Garnier-Flamarion or Folio
                         the cruelty of this book is just to reveal once
                         more the blackness of the human soul.

Barbey d'Aurevilly:  "les diaboliques"
                     ed: Folio 
                     (like for Villiers, this is his last name, I have 
                     forgotten the first names)

Prosper Merimee: "La Venus d'Ille"
                 ed:?
 
Honore' de Balzac: "La peau de chagrin"
                   ed: le Livre de Poche  or Garnier-Flamarion (or Folio?)

Gerard de Nerval: "Aurelia"
                  ed: le Livre de Poche 
                  reve et folie... (actually, Nerval himself wasn't quite 
                  sane toward the end, and eventually hung himself)

Guy de Maupassant: "le Horla"
                   ed: le Livre de Poche
                   the journal of a guy who [believes, does he?, he] is 
                   tourmented/ruled by some demon. Great stuff

Edgar Allan Poe: "histoires extraordinaires"
                 "nouvelles histoires extraordinaires"
                 "histoires grotesques et serieuses"
                 "les aventures d'Arthur Gordon Pym"
                 ed: Folio   or  le Livre de Poche
                 OK, Poe was USian, but the translation by the greatest
                 French poet of this time (Baudelaire) is a *monument*
                 of the French literature. It is worth reading it again.

Now, some more modern books

Jacques Cazotte:  "le diable amoureux"
                  ed: Folio  or  GF


Jan Potocki:      "Manuscrit trouve a` Saragosse"
                  ed: Gallimard
                  The guy is Polish, but he wrote this book in French (the
                  way Kundera is doing now). Actually, the text is
                  incomplete, (a part has been lost) but it was discovered
                  recently that he has translated it in Polish before his
                  death, so we are waiting for the complete French edition.
                  Don't !

Jean  Ray:  "Malpertuis"
            "Visages et choses crepusculaires"
            ed: J'ai Lu
            probably the most famous French (actually belgian, I think)
            "fantastique/horror" autor. I find his books a trifle heavy,
            but it is readable, and he has some good ideas.

I don't know that many modern sf/fantasy, as you can see. Don't expect
anyway to find any Tolkien - Le Guin - Zelazny - like books. The fairy is
not a French tradition: it never evolved beyond the "Grimm" stage
(actually, in France, Perrault Hoffmann) and remained quite despised by the
18th (and beyond) parisian elite who prefered to take their inspiration in
the latin and greek legends.

Anyway, these days, the best French sf/fantasy is not found in novels, but
in "Bandes Dessinees" or BD ("comics" doesn't fit at all for the artistic
level of some works). I am sure lots of people on the net are more
knowledgeable in this field than I am (I used to be reasonably competent
but, unfortunately, I have forgotten a lot) but, if needed, I probably
could give some pointers.

I hope it helped.

Jean-Yves  Herve'
herve@cvl.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 11:34:19 GMT
From: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire)
Subject: Re: french sf/fantasy

herve@cvl.umd.edu (Jean-Yves Herve') writes:
> Just one comment on the "the french don't like sf" line: as I say later,
> "hard-sf" and "heroic fantasy" are not french styles. But the
> translations

Wasn't "Barbarella," movie and book, a pretty successful French "heroic
fantasy," Jane Fonda notwithstanding? Vadim certainly used sf themes, even
some pretty daring ones for the time, as I recall.

Alexander H. McIntire, Jr.
Graduate School of International Studies
University of Miami    
Coral Gables, FL 33124-8123   
305-284-4414
Internet/Bitnet: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu
uucp: {uunet!gould}!umbio!amcint

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 23:44:29 GMT
From: herve@cvl.umd.edu (Jean-Yves Herve')
Subject: Re: french sf/fantasy

g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire) writes:
>Wasn't "Barbarella," movie and book, a pretty successful French "heroic
>fantasy," Jane Fonda notwithstanding? Vadim certainly used sf themes, even
>some pretty daring ones for the time, as I recall.

I thought the guy who created Barbarella was Italian (actually, I am
allmost sure, I just cannot remember his name).

Anyway, the problem is:

Who exactly remembers Barbarella? Mainly 40/50 years old Left (at this
time) male intellectuals (that is, at this time, the french intelligentsia
was leftist, when people wanted to speak of a Right intellectual they just
called him Aron) The success wasn't a popular one (no comparison with "et
Dieu crea la Femme")

From what I seem to recall from readings on the subject, the success of the
comics/movie among the intelligentsia can be (partially) explained by:

1) the erotism: the comics were the first it was so present in. SF was
   mainly a justification for the presence of semi-naked women and the
   ideas of sexual freedom. It was after all easier to project it in some
   kind of hypothetical future than, say, in the Middle Ages. Of course, it
   isn't anymore, people are getting used to see characters screw around in
   any kind of historical/social context, it was definitely not the case
   then.

2) the ideas depicted in the comics fitwell in the philosophy of the time.
   You had here a strong, sexy, free woman in a sexually free world.

3) French intellectuals have a kind of perverse fascination for cheap crap.
   Most of them have at some moment celebrated, intellectualized, the
   content and value of tabloids, (or) porn movies, (or) american series
   and tv games.  They represent a confortable percent of the number of
   readers/buyers of porn comics/novels.  "Barbarella" wasn't that
   different from stuff considered "porn". It was simply better drawn, and
   the ideas developed gave some philosophical/political caution to the
   act of reading it.

Don't get me wrong, I liked it (even if I have only a very fuzzy
remembering of it), but more because of its historical value, statement of
the time of its realization, than for any artistic or sf reason.

I confirm, "hard" sf and heroic fantasy are *not* french styles (which
doesn't mean we don't appreciate the translations of American and English
books).

Jean-Yves.
herve@cvl.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 88 06:57:10 GMT
From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle)
Subject: Spanish SF/Fantasy (was Re: french sf/fantasy)

Hmmm...can anyone out there say anything about *Spanish* sf/fantasy?  I did
come across a translation of The_Crystal_Cave by Stewart, but have lost
track of that (if you know where I can find it, I'd be eternally
grateful!!!).  It would be a good way to keep up my Spanish...

Cindy
ARPA:   tittle@ics.uci.edu
BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet
UUCP:   {sdcsvax|ucbvax}!ucivax!tittle

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 21:44:10 GMT
From: jyegiguere@lotus.waterloo.edu (Eric Giguere)
Subject: Re: french sf/fantasy

If you're looking for French SF/Fantasy, don't forget to inquire about
Canadian writers.  Most Americans seem to forget, or don't know, that the
province of Quebec is full of people who speak nothing but French....
Being North Americans, however, the tastes of the Quebecois in many things
is in synch with English Canada and the U.S.....

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 16:09:20 GMT
From: rouaix@inria.inria.fr (Francois Rouaix)
Subject: Re: European SF (Re: Fifties style)

ded@kossy.jhuapl.edu (Don Davis) writes:
> A more general question.  My local French book store informed me that SF
> is not very popular in France and thus they couldn't supply me with
> French language SF.  The best I've been able to do is an Asterix comic
> book.

Your french book seller is badly informed. SF is VERY popular on France.
French writers are not very well known, and we read mostly foreign writers
translated in french. However here are some pointers (my favorites):

Stefan Wul: Noo (1 and 2), Niourk, Oms en se'rie, Rayons pour Sidar,
        and others I don't have in mind.  Stefan Wul is sometimes difficult
        to read, especially in Noo, because he uses a *very* large
        vocabulary, combining existing and created words.

Pierre Pelot: there is a whole saga which begins with "Les mangeurs
        d'argile".  I don't remember exactly the name of the saga, but it
        may be "Les hommes du futur".  There are also plenty other books,
        but I find them so depressing that I stopped reading them...

also Michel Jeury but I can't remember a title.

Francois Rouaix
rouaix@inria.inria.fr

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 31 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 308

Today's Topics:

		  Films - Aliens (7 msgs) & Barberella &
                          Nightfall (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 88 19:03:16 GMT
From: greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman)
Subject: Re: About doze Alienz...

Traveller@IVORY.S4CC.SYMBOLICS.COM (William R. Swanson) writes:
>>Given any of the above, I can imagine that the Aliens encountered in the
>>two movies might have more than a little intelligence, since they would
>>be carrying the genes for it -- it's just that in the intermediate form,
>>many of those genes would probably not be "turned on".
>>
>>Might the next _Aliens_ movie be about contact between humanity and the
>>intelligent form of the Aliens?  Yow!!  Talk about racial tensions . . .
>
>Why not contact with the form we have? One of the "genes" you mention
>might regulate how much control intelligence has on the creatures'
>actions, or at the very least, how much it is superseded by territorial
>and host-seeking drives.

One thing I'd like to point out is that even intelligent creatures don't
exercise their intelligence all of the time.  We all know that otherwise
intelligent human beings can do stupid things in the heat of passion.  If
you've ever had a cat, you've undoubtedly observed that when they're calm,
they're pretty bright; but get them angry/scared and the eyes defocus, the
ears stop hearing and the instincts and adrenalin take over.

I think the Aliens are much like that, but with "hair triggers".  They are
*driven* to reproduce at all costs.

By the way, has anyone wondered what the "indigenous" host form is for
them?  I mean, the one they presumably required on their home planet?  Why
didn't they wipe it out, unless it was as tough as them, in which case why
didn't it wipe *them* out?  Hmmm?

Greg Wageman
Schlumberger Technologies	
1601 Technology Drive		
San Jose, CA 95110		
(408) 437-5198			
ARPA:  greg%sentry@spar.slb.com
UUCP: ...!decwrl!spar!sentry!greg

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 88 20:57:00 GMT
From: bradley!bucc2!fatcat@a.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: ALIENS III

The first draft for Aliens III has been written by William Gibson (author
of Neuromancer, etc.).  He had just finished the first draft when the
writer's strike started, and the project went on hold.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 04:43:12 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!kyre@gatech.edu (Party Animal at Heart)
Subject: Re: Message of 27-Sep-88 08:01:30

homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER) writes:
>   I didn't see any conclusive way to prove that the Warrior caste were
>definitely sentient.  I think there are some pretty strong circumstantial
>arguments...  Finally, the Aliens themselves have two opposable thumbs.
>If an opposable thumb really is a sign of sentience then the fact that the
>Aliens have two of them should say something.

  The koala has two opposable thumbs as well. Although having an opposable
thumb may be a requirement for intelligence, it is not necessarily
indicative of it.

m10ux!rgr@att.att.com (Duke Robillard) writes:
>   Okay, here's my theory.  The reason the creature in _Alien_ seemed so
>much smarter than the Warriors in _Aliens_ is that she was a developing
>Queen Alien.  See, when a face hugger hatches, it can implant two
>different kinds of eggs, Warrior or Queen.  If there's no living Queen
>around (the aliens are telepathic, so they can tell), it implants a Queen
>egg.

  There are some existing creatures known, examples of which escape me at
the moment, that when a special member of the species is necessary for
reproduction, one is created out of the existing members, be it through
special treatment of already unhatched eggs or even conversion of an
already mature member. It would not be too far fetched to assume that the
creature in _Alien_, in the absence of a female, might become one itself.
In fact, I don't recall there being any reference to genders as far as the
creatures are concerned, and if one can produce many, then perhaps the
Warriors are non-gender specific, as in 'need a female? Ok, I'll become
one' sort of thing, or, as the case may be, reproduce asexually and
therefore are all females, one being deligated to egg laying.

  As far as the Space Jockey is concerned and the origins of the Aliens, I
had the impression that the creatures were transported there by the alien
ship, perhaps through a crash landing. The planet itself didn't seem like
the sort of place in which life would develop, and the possibility of the
alien ship, laying on a sort of angle on a hill side if I recall correctly,
having crashed, seems plausible. Conjecture of course, but who's counting?

Erik Gorka
Reed College, Box 233
Portland OR  97202   
tektronix!reed!kyre

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 19:51:08 GMT
From: tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu (The Human Barometer)
Subject: Re: More ALIENS

marco@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Peter Dimarco) says:
[Talking about the Pilot/Space Jockey . . . ]
>I agree.  My guess is that this thing was the pilot of a troop
>ship/arsenal.  Remember that this creature had fallen victim to one of its
>passengers: its chest had a familiar (but proportionately larger) hole in
>it.
[ . . . and about the alien biology.]
>Ash admitted (sort of) that the aliens had potential in the bio-warfare
>market, but there's something about the reverence that the robots held for
>the aliens... There are several scenes where the robots express a deep
>fascination for the aliens' "perfection."  I can't help wondering (watch
>out folks, this is gonna be silly) if the robots admire the aliens because
>they see the aliens as machines superior to themselves.
  
On the contrary, Peter, these are both excellent points---and some of the
best concrete evidence regarding the aliens.  The hole in the pilot's chest
was larger than what I'd expect in Kane's chest, but proportionally they
could be the same.  This supports an adaptivity idea.

As regards Ash and Bishop, if this isn't official fuel for the fires, it's
at least a serious thematic link with its own merit.

Respects,

Eugene Tramaglino		 
Box 71176		
Las Vegas, NV 89170-1176
+1 702 731 4064
tlhingan@unsvax.uns.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 88 18:07:38 GMT
From: brwk@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Bevis King)
Subject: Journey Times in Aliens

I always thought the discussion about how long it took to Earth from LV-426
had a very simple answer.

Nostromo was a tug, pulling an enormous weight in the form of the refinary
and cargo behind it.  It is likely surely that many other craft available
at the time of alien would be many times faster than a tug with cargo.  In
fact, the Nostromo could probably go much faster when it was running light
(as apposed to towing).  So taking ten months to get to Earth (especially
overcoming the inertia of all that cargo, after a stop) doesn't seem
strange to me.  A battle craft like the Sulaco would be many times faster,
carrying "tough hombres packing state of the art firepower".  Another
question might be, how fast would the Nostromo be without the cargo?

Also, since LV-426 is obviously not in Earth's solar system, there must be
both faster than light travel and communications... it is entirely possible
that humans have to be cryogenically frozen in order to survive the
transition to faster than light speed (like a sonic boom maybe, but many
time worse...).  What's more, being frozen as an ice block would probably
be quite helpful in surviving the kind of G-forces involved in any viable
level of accelleration.

Regards, 

Bevis King
Dept of Computing, Imperial College
180 Queens Gate, London, SW7 2BZ, UK
+44 1 589 5111 x 5085
brwk@doc.ic.ac.uk
..!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!brwk

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 88 16:18:00 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Host Creatures (was Re: About doze Alienz...)

greg%sentry@spar.slb.com (Greg Wageman) writes:
>By the way, has anyone wondered what the "indigenous" host form is for
>them?  I mean, the one they presumably required on their home planet?  Why
>didn't they wipe it out, unless it was as tough as them, in which case why
>didn't it wipe *them* out?  Hmmm?

This sounds like something out of Harrison's "Deathworld Trilogy," where
everything is vicious and tough enough to kill everything else, one way or
another.

As far as the aliens' reproductive habits, I've always thought that this
would be the sort of thing that would be selected against in the process of
evolution. In the examples I know of here on earth, the host serves not
just as incubator, but also as food. Also, there are numerous eggs laid,
not just one. With something as vicious as the aliens, I would expect
several eggs to be laid, with the first hatchling destroying the others.

The cycle itself is rather bizarre, actually. Instead of the eggs being
implanted directly within the host, they have to go through the egg and
"face-hugger" stages first before becoming a larva within a host.

Speaking of that (boy, am I off on a few tangents!) how did the detached
face-huggers occur? I wouldn't expect them to leave the protective egg
without a potential host, and I didn't think it was possible to remove one
without killing the host. Maybe the people at the colony *did* kill a few
of their own in the process of removing the aliens? I don't think it's
likely that they simply "missed" their victims when emerging from the eggs.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 88 02:01:34 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Host Creatures

>Speaking of that (boy, am I off on a few tangents!) how did the detached
>face-huggers occur? I wouldn't expect them to leave the protective egg
>without a potential host, and I didn't think it was possible to remove one
>without killing the host

I saw ALIENS this past weekend (we had a pre-Halloween party) and there are
answers there...

1.)  When the crew first gets to the MedLab (or whatever it was called),
they (I think Bishop, maybe Burke) read the clipboard next to the one of
the Face-Hugger tanks and it says that the colonist died during removal...

2.)  They free one that attacks Newt and Ripley in the MedLab is freed from
one of the tanks (you can see the broken tank in the next room)...

3.)  When Newt is attached to the creepy, goopy, Alien-slime wall at the
end, an egg nearby opens and the Face-Hugger crawls out, presumably to hug
Newt's face (although maybe to Ripley's face if Newt is already infected...
hmmm... naaah), and Ripley blows the sucker away...  If they can't get the
hosts to look into the egg, they slap the hosts against the wall and let
the Face-Huggers come to them... During their skittling across the floor,
you can blow 'em away...

MY QUESTION IS THIS:

Why do they always keep so many eggs around!!?!??!??!?

The Queen just keeps pumping them out... but why?

John
5877 Bartlett Street Apt. 2
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
(412) 421-4002
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 88 04:11:36 GMT
From: herve@cvl.umd.edu (Jean-Yves Herve')
Subject: Re: french sf/fantasy

g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire) writes:
>herve@cvl.umd.edu (Jean-Yves Herve') writes:
>> I thought the guy who created Barbarella was italian (actually, I am
>> almost sure, I just cannot remember his name).
>> 
>I thought it was Roger Vadim, at least if the _auteur_ theory of
>film-making is valid... I don't know about the comic.

The comic is definitely the real stuff, much more erotic and provocative
than the movie. Vadim just adapted it to movie format, but most of the
original spirit was lost. It was too clean, sterilized... This is the risk
you take when you do an erotic movie in colour, to come up with
"Emmanuelle" or some Bo Derek movie: nice picture, beautiful women, and
that's it!  It is no surprise if most if not all erotic comics (even now
that sex is quite banalized) are done in Black and White (including
"Barbarella" and her little sisters "Lucifera","Vampirella" ...)  Anyway,
the relative succes of the movie was built on the cult reserved to the
comic among intellectuals...

and here we arrive to the second part...

>> Who exactly remembers Barbarella? Mainly 40/50 years old Left (at this
>> time)
>
>ouch, Ouch OUCH!!! Got me where it hurts.... As the only self-confessed
>middle-aged lifetime reader/film buff on the nets [yes, friends, the semi-
>mythical "Middle-aged White Male" of net-lore, target of much wasted
>methane flaming, still exists in scattered pockets where his habitat has
>not been destroyed], I resent the dismissive slur implied.

sorry, Sorry, SORRY!!! There was absolutely nothing negative ment in my
statement, I think it is just a fact that:

  Most less than 40 years old never heard about it because it is not a
  major (or even minor for that matter) cult movie

  It was essentially an intellectual phenomenon.

  As I said, at this time, pratically all intellectual were leftists.

And after all, si les petits cochons ne me mangent pas, this is pretty much
what I should look like 15/20 years from now...

Jean-Yves 
herve@cvl.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 04:36:44 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Nightfall movie?

Unless I'm suffering from some massive brain hemorraging, there was a movie
made out of Isaac Asimov's story "Nightfall" which was in theatres for
about three days and then disappeared off the face of the earth.  I think
it came out over the summer sometime.  Does anybody know anything about it,
or have all your brains been erased and I remain the only one who still
holds the memory, defying the alien's brain erasure...

Speaking of that, does anybody know anything about the new John Carpenter
film _They Live_?  I saw a comerical for it, and it looked pretty good, but
I thought the comerical for _Prince of Darkness_ was pretty good too, and
that wasn't the BEST movie I've ever seen.

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 16:18:47 GMT
From: ugwiles@sybil (Dale Wiles)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

da1n+@andrew (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>Unless I'm suffering from some massive brain hemorraging, there was a
>movie made out of Isaac Asimov's story "Nightfall" which was in theatres
>for about three days and then disappeared off the face of the earth.

You're right, there was a movie called "Nightfall". I've never seen it, but
I think that it was plotted after a short story he wrote ealier in life.
The short story is supposed to be pretty good, but the universal consensus
of those who've seen it is that the movie sucked. I have not heard of
anyone who liked it.

>Speaking of that, does anybody know anything about the new John
>Carpenter film _They Live_?

There are aliens among us, and it's up to Rowdy Roddy Piper to boot them
out! This is art!!! I can't wait.

Dale Wiles

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 01:24:33 GMT
From: davidc@umd5.umd.edu (David Conrad)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist):
> Unless I'm suffering from some massive brain hemorraging, there was a
> movie made out of Isaac Asimov's story "Nightfall" which was in theatres
> for about three days and then disappeared off the face of the earth.

I think the people who did this movie are the ones who had the brain
hemmorage.

I am embarrassed to admit that, yes, I saw this... uh... "movie".  It was
easily the worst adaptation of any story I've ever read.  When I was in the
theatre, all I kept thinking was "it can't get any worse".  It did.

The basic plot of the movie was *very* roughly the same as the story, and
I'd say about 5 minutes of the actual dialog was similar.  And they had the
audacity to make references to the Asimov's story on the posters...

If they had used another name, I probably wouldn't have minded so much
('cause I probably wouldn't have seen it).  I wouldn't recommend this movie
to *anyone* as I feel it had *NO* redeeming features.

Yuk!

drc

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 22:12:10 GMT
From: pdg@hpcupt1.hp.com (Paul Gootherts)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

The brain-erasure aliens missed me, too.  I wish they *had* gotten to me
and *before* I got to the theater.  Friends of mine and I saw it opening
night on the strength of having read the story years ago.

Here's my opinion:

It was the worst movie I have ever seen.  It was badly written, directed
and acted.  The photography was terrible.  It bore almost no resemblance to
the original story.  They changed the ending!  It was impossible to figure
out what was going on, and I've read the story.  It was boring.  People
started walking out during the first 15 minutes.  People talked and no one
asked them to be quiet.

Please don't misunderstand me; this film is not "so bad it's funny" (like
"Plan 9 From Outer Space", for example).  It's not even that good.

Paul Gootherts
Hewlett Packard Co
hplabs!hpda!pdg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 31 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 309

Today's Topics:

	  Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (2 msgs) &
                       Something Is Out There (7 msgs) &
                       War of the Worlds (5 msgs) & Salvage I

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 13:16:20 GMT
From: hoqax!bicker@att.att.com 
Subject: Re: ST:TNG new series

"Markjr_Palandri.SD"@XEROX.COM writes:
>Does anyone know the air date of the first episode of the new season of
>Star Trek: The New Generation.

The word on the street is we will have to wait until the week of November
21.

Brian C. Kohn
AT&T Bell Laboratories Quality Assurance Center
(201) 949-5850
...att!hoqax!bicker

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 23:40:52 GMT
From: shefter-bret@cs.yale.edu (Bret A. Shefter)
Subject: Re: Whoopi Goldberg on Star Trek: The Next Generation

rwl@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Ray Lubinsky) writes:
>Hey!   Maybe they can get Jack Jones to put some lyrics to the Star Trek
>theme...  I can hear it now... :-)

    This brings up an interesting point...Does anyone have the words that
Gene Roddenberry originally wrote for the Star Trek theme? There really
were some, though they were pretty...err...stupid...

shefter-bret@yale.ARPA
shefter@yalecs.BITNET
...!decvax!yale!shefter

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 88 04:31:22 GMT
From: arrom@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee )
Subject: Something Is Out There

Who writes this thing?  Doesn't it stand to reason that if you're trying to
shoot someone wearing an armored suit, but no helmet, you should shoot at
his head?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 88 17:36:00 GMT
From: astroatc!nicmad!brown@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Mr. Video)
Subject: Re: Something Is Out There

arrom@aplcen.UUCP (Ken Arromdee (600.429)) writes:
>Who writes this thing?  Doesn't it stand to reason that if you're trying
>to shoot someone wearing an armored suit, but no helmet, you should shoot
>at his head?

It really isn't any different than a cop wearing a bullet-proof vest.  I
guess the theory is if they shoot at the larger target (the torso) and then
discover that that won't work, the cop with the armor will get his/her shot
in and get the other person.

ucbvax!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!brown
astroatc.UUCP!nicmad!brown@spool.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 88 23:12:54 GMT
From: ssc-vax!cxsea!blm@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Brian Matthews)
Subject: Re: Something Is Out There

Ken Arromdee (arrom@aplcen.UUCP) writes:
>Who writes this thing?  Doesn't it stand to reason that if you're trying
>to shoot someone wearing an armored suit, but no helmet, you should shoot
>at his head?

Well, no.  I would risk great bodily harm and possibly death to myself and
friends to lure my foe outside hoping for a pile of old cement chunks and
wood improbably suspended above the ground where I could shoot out the
support thereby killing my enemy seconds before being blasted myself 8-).

I lost count at the number of times I screamer "Shoot for the head you
idiots" at the TV.  Unfortunately, they didn't listen.

I don't know if even Maryam d'Abo will be enough to make me watch again.

Brian L. Matthews
+1 206 251 6811    
blm@cxsea.UUCP
...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 88 14:15:00 GMT
From: hedger@inmet
Subject: Re: Something Is Out There

Yeah you would think so huh ?????

I thought they should have stayed with the story line from the pilot and
had a really nasty alien creature as the enemy. This is starting to look
like 'I Spy' meets 'Get Smart' meets 'My Favorite Martian' .....
definitely lame. And while we're on the subject, I happened across the last
half of something called 'War of the Worlds' the other night. This REALLY
sucks....I mean, I'm a great fan of good science fiction and I like campy
trash and all that, but this thing makes 'Battlestar Galactica' look like
'Alien'. Don't waste your time.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 20:17:01 GMT
From: dap@cgl.ucsf.edu (David A. Pearlman)
Subject: Re: Something Is Out There

And it stunk! I mean, even if we overlook the "why don't you aim at the
head" flaw (already pointed out in this group), it was *dull*, *dull*,
*dull*. The pilot movie was moderately enjoyable, in a guilty pleasure sort
of way. But the show seems to have dropped the best part of that story
(aliens who can take over human life-forms; sort of an '80's version of
"The Invaders") in favor of a generic "two partners" crime show. With
McCormick & Hardcastle, Simon&Simon, etc., don't we have enough of these
already?

And no, I don't think the fact that she's an alien really adds all that
much to the genre...

Oh well...

David A. Pearlman
BITNET: dap@ucsfcgl.BITNET
UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!dap
ARPA: dap@cgl.ucsf.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 01:47:10 GMT
From: l5comp!john@uunet.uu.net (John Turner)
Subject: Something Is Out There

Did anybody see last night's episode?  T'ra(sp) tells Jack that she can
give birth only once, at the end of her life, to provide a "replacement"
for herself.  It Is The Way Of Her People.  She made it sound like both
males and females gave birth, on their death beds at the old-age home no
less.

It's an interesting concept, but flawed.  If every generation of her race
exactly replaces itself, how would the population grow?  How would her
ancestors, who lived at some point without benefit of invincible weapons
and indoor plumbing, replace casualties lost to saber-toothed wombat
attacks and cholera?  How could you get a whole race of people at *all*,
seeing as how a species traces its ancestry back to a small number of
successful mutations?

Maybe they engineered themselves after they civilized, turning themselves
into, um, what's the phrase?  Obligate Zero Population Growth-ers?  The
population must have slowly fallen ever since, due to losses such as the
disaster that befell T'ra's prison ship if nothing else, so it really isn't
"true" ZPG.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

PS I don't think the little girl's telekinesis had any importance to the
story whatsoever.  The writer just threw it in to clutter things up.  And
am I the only one who is getting tired of the "snappy repartee" practiced
by TeeVeeCops?  I haven't heard such drek since I last tuned across _G.I.
Joe_ :-( Sigh.

John Turner
john@l5comp

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 20:53:57 GMT
From: pcp2g@bessel.acc.virginia.edu (Philip C. Plait)
Subject: Re: Something Is Out There

john@l5comp.UUCP (John Turner) writes:
[stuff deleted abot T'ara's people's birthing habits]
>It's an interesting concept, but flawed.

Unlike the rest of the show? 

>PS I don't think the little girl's telekinesis had any importance to the
>story whatsoever.  The writer just threw it in to clutter things up.  And
>am I the only one who is getting tired of the "snappy repartee" practiced
>by TeeVeeCops?  I haven't heard such drek since I last tuned across _G.I.
>Joe_ :-( Sigh.

Have any of you seen the lousy movie "Firestarter", based on the Stephen
King book, where a scientific experiment causes a man (who is himself a
teleken) to have a telekinetic daughter? Can't those morons at network TV
do *anything* original?

When I saw the pilot movie for "Something Is Out There" I was hoping for
something good. Unfortunately, not only was it tritely done (aliens in
orbit watching NBC series? C'mon, it was funny once, but not *four
times*!), but it was an unbelievably blatant ripoff copy of "The Hidden", a
so-so film that came out a year ago, with exactly (EXACTLY!!)  the same
plot-- alien comes to Earth to hunt out renegade criminal alien who takes
over people's bodies and kills. He teams up with a human cop etc.

And the opening credits with the cop narrating, pictures of Mary'am's legs,
and those pictures of his gun---aiieeeee! This is so bad, even "Sledge
Hammer" would be embarassed to do it. This show satirizes itself.
 
If there are people out there who enjoy this show, I'm sorry if this flame
upsets you. But with this stuff, and the really bad "War of the Worlds" out
now, it makes me upset that the writers at the networks don't put out more
quality stuff. Does anyone know to whom I can write at the networks about
this?
 
Phil Plait
UVa Dept. of Astronomy      
PCP2G@bessel.acc.virginia.EDU
PCP2G@Virginia

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 88 21:30:30 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: War of The Worlds - Lame

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>1) Amazing effects of radiation overdose: At least this time it wasn't
>spontaneous 'mutation' of a living creature!  (Does anybody in Hollywood
>even know what mutation actually is?)  Can't figure out how to do it?  Use
>radiation.

Well, for all of us who were wondering about the radiation damage to the
host bodies, that question's been answered. See? The writers aren't as dumb
as we all thought.

>If the aliens are aliens, make them aliens.

What did you think of the second episode? The look *extremely* alien in
their new anti-bacteria suits. I give the writers and/or costumers credit
for this. They aren't all slick and manufactured looking. They really do
look like something the aliens had to cobble together in an emergency from
whatever parts they could scavenge.

I also liked the cattle mutilation. Take one of the biggest UFO cliches and
use it as a plot device, so everyone knows you don't take yourselves all
that seriously.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 88 16:42:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.com (Larry Smith)
Subject: Earth Strikes Back!

34AEJ7D@cmuvm.BITNET ("W. K. ''Bill'' Gorman") writes:
[...in reference to the strange global amnesia postulated in the new War of
the Worlds series:}

>It seems illogical to me to contend, as this sf-soap does, that once the
>original invaders met their demise there would not have been a combined,
>global retaliation. It seems equally logical to contend that needed
>technology would have been developed as needed. Examples: Radar, nuclear
>weapons, etc., which were basically developed far sooner than might
>otherwise have been the case, due to the stimulus of war.

Interestingly, there was a sequel to the H.G. Wells novel published years
ago, in which Tom Edison invents "electric propulsion" and leads Earth's
valiant warriors in "Invasion of Mars".  An awesomely bad book, which has
set the tone for all succeeding "War of the Worlds" material.

Larry Smith
lsmith@apollo1.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 88 03:22:40 GMT
From: vulcan@ihlpa.att.com (Lang)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>Why didn't the computer genius figure out that the signals were in
>trinary, rather than binary? We, of course, had the additional clue that
>the aliens were tripedal and all, but he should have been able to
>distingush three tones, rather than the expected two.

What does this have to do with the aliens using a trinary code instead of
binary. We did not develop computers using binary code because we are
bipedal. Binary is used since it is the simplest way to represent
information in a computer. The information is represented by a series bits
with each bit being a one ("ON") or a zero ("OFF").

What kind of representation are the aliens using: one ("ON"), zero ("OFF"),
two ("MAYBE")? :-) :-)

I am not saying that the aliens could not have developed their computers
using a trinary code (for whatever reason). But I seriously doubt they
would use trinary simply because they are tripedal any more than we use
binary because we're bipedal. If they do use trinary for this reason I
think it is another case where the writers know nothing about computers. I
think you have all seen movies/tv shows where a person sits at a terminal
without knowing the slightest thing about the system and is able to
retrieve information by typing in a question in English. I know some people
in the Artificial Intelligence field would love to know how this is done!!
:-) :-) :-)

Bobby J. Lang
AT&T Bell Laboratories

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 88 17:28:59 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds

vulcan@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Lang) writes:
> granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>>Why didn't the computer genius figure out that the signals were in
>>trinary, rather than binary? We, of course, had the additional clue that
>>the aliens were tripedal and all, but he should have been able to
>>distingush three tones, rather than the expected two.
>
> What does this have to do with the aliens using a trinary code instead of
> binary.

Some years ago (15? 20?) some Russian college students built a ternary
computer.  It was done to make one "different" from the decadent,
bourgeois, western computers.  I don't recall how the did it. It was
reported in Datamation at the time.

However--in a world that does not remember being nearly destroyed by an
alien invasion a mere 35 years ago, one can hardly be surprised at their
not knowing about obscure computer architecture variants. :-)

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708         
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 21:57:53 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: War of the Worlds

vulcan@ihlpa.UUCP (Lang,B.J.) writes:
[previous posting deleted]
>What does this have to do with the aliens using a trinary code instead of
>binary. We did not develop computers using binary code because we are
>bipedal. Binary is used since it is the simplest way to represent
>information in a computer. The information is represented by a series bits
>with each bit being a one ("ON") or a zero ("OFF").

Actually, the simplicity derives not so much from logic as from the
hardware we are using (transistors) which has a naturally bistable mode of
operation (blocking or saturated).  If one were to use hardware with a
tristable mode of operation, one would employ trinary.  There seem to be
some indications that some optical systems might be naturally trinary.

Note that for equivalent technology, trinary would be faster, because a
number would have fewer trits than bits.

>What kind of representation are the aliens using: one ("ON"), zero
>("OFF"), two ("MAYBE")? :-) :-)

For logic you would presumably either waste a state or pack booleans (eg 4
bools to two trits).  This of course assumes that the aliens use a logic
like ours to study the universe.  Their system might well have three truth
values.

>If they do use trinary [because they are tripedal then ] it is another
>case where the writers know nothing about computers. [same as in]
>movies/tv shows where a person sits at a terminal [and can] retrieve
>information by typing in a question in English.  I know some people in the
>Artificial Intelligence field would love to know how this is done!! :-)
>:-) :-)

Simple, they can only ask the questions in the script :-) :-)

SR

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 88 19:26:26 GMT
From: jmturn@rattler.envos.COM (James M. Turner)
Subject: Re: SF Predictions (Salvage 1)

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Pete Granger) writes:
>   I just remembered another SF prediction that's apparently come true.
>Remember the TV series (and a couple of movies) "Salvage 1" with Andy
>Griffith?
>   For those who don't: Enterprising salvage and scrap dealer Andy
>Griffith hires rocket fuels and technology expert (female) and washed-up
>astronaut (male), they build a rocket (using the barrel of a cement mixer
>as the crew compartment!) and go into orbit and to the moon to salvage all
>the millions of dollars worth of junk the U.S. has left there.

In fact, reality is echoed more closely than you mention. One of the
episodes deals with the recover and return to Earth of a defunct satellite.
This was very reminiscent of the recovery missions to retrieve the two
Comsats that failed to properly power up during Shuttle deployment.

Also, the recovery was funded by one of the Lloyd's of London syndicates,
so in this sense, NASA was really work for private industry.

Salvage 1 was a fun show on occasion, in spite of some basically silly
premises. Especially stupid was the concept of using a long slow burn
rather than a short fast burn to get to escape velocity. Last time I check,
you like to burn off most of your fuel at the bottom of the gravity well,
rather than try to carry it to the top.

James M. Turner
envos corporation
25 Burlington Mall Road
Suite 300
Burlington, MA 01803
(617) 270-0649
jmturn@rattler.envos.COM

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 31 Oct 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 310

Today's Topics:

		Miscellaneous - SF Predictions (15 msgs) &
                                SF Novels Before 1953

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 12:19:08 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions 

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Submarines are older than Jules Verne.

And the diving suits in "20,000 leagues" are based on designs in use in
France at the time the book was written.

All Verne did was make them safer and easier to use and increase the time a
diver could stay underwater. Much the same idea as some science fiction
authors do with spacesuits today.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 88 15:55:31 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

hal@garth.UUCP (Hal Broome) writes:
>Your main problem is that modern writers tend to look FAR ahead, so there
>is no telling which ones are going to be true.

One interesting recent exception to this rule was "The Moon Goddess and the
Son" by Donald Kingsbury.

It is a sort of alternate present and near future story where the response
of the USA to the Challenger disaster and the massive Russian expansion of
the MIR space station was a large increase in the US space program to catch
up.

The book is particulary interesting, because the author has spent a lot of
time trying to understand the way Russians think rather than potraying them
as the usual "evil empire" villan.

This could have been a very good book if the some fatal flaws hadn't shown
up. In a book about the near future of space exploration no mention is made
whatever of any other country having any interest in space exploration.
The ending of the book is rather abrupt and completly discards all the
ideas and careful thought that has gone into the previous 500 odd pages in
favour of a sudden "Good_old_USofA_free_enterprise_solves_every_problem"
solution. Very disappointing.

Some sf-lovers readers might also like to look out for the various
references to the UNIX operating system.  Is this the first novel the
system has been featured in?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 03:52:29 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

>One interesting recent exception to this rule was "The Moon Goddess and
>the Son" by Donald Kingsbury.  This could have been a very good book if
>the some fatal flaws hadn't shown up. In a book about the near future of
>space exploration no mention is made whatever of any other country having
>any interest in space exploration.  The ending of the book is rather
>abrupt and completly discards all the ideas and careful thought that has
>gone into the previous 500 odd pages in favour of a sudden
>"Good_old_USofA_free_enterprise_solves_every_problem" solution. Very
>disappointing.

One thing to watch out for... this is more like two books, with chapters
alternating from each. The original novella (in _Analog_ ) was purely about
Diana, and was much more a character story than a technological /
sociological one. The Other Stuff (written later, I assume) deals with
Russia, computers, the space race and so forth. As I recall, the two
stories are mated somewhat clumsily (although that does not necessarily
detract from the entirety.)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 06:12:11 GMT
From: w25y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

    One thing Arthur C. Clarke did hit fairly close to the mark on-- he
predicted that his geosynchronous comm sattelites could be used to
broadcast TV programs that violated the current "decency" standards for
ground-based transmission.  I'm not sure, but I think that the story was
called "Babylon".

    Issac Asimov predicted hand calculators in _Foundation_.

    As I recall, Heinlein gave a fairly realistic description of the use of
computers to calculate burn rates, etc. for rocket-based space travel in
some of his stories set "early" in the space age.

W25Y@CRNLVAX5               
W25Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 88 00:02:12 GMT
From: seanf@sco.com (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

bob@etive.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
>tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>Submarines are older than Jules Verne.
>
>And the diving suits in "20,000 leagues" are based on
>designs in use in France at the time the book was written.

What Verne described was a *nuclear* submarine (I think he actually
described something that "harnessed the power of the atom," or somesuch).
Assuming my memory is not making me make a fool of myself, this was indeed
something which could be described as a "prediction," and is why the first
nuclear powered submarine was called "The Nautilus."

Of course, I could be wrong...

Sean Eric Fagan
seanf@sco.UUCP 
(408) 458-1422 

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 88 13:45:53 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

  A couple examples pop immediately to mind.

  In Arthur C. Clarke's novel version of _Childhood's End_, there is a
reference to women "cooking in their radar ranges" or something similar
(the phrase "radar range" is explicitly present). It's possible that they
existed in the experimental stage, but microwave ovens certainly weren't in
common use when the book was written (1953).

  In Robert A. Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_ (copyright 1961),
the second paragraph of chapter IX tells us: "Mr. and Mrs. Harrison
Campbell VI had a son and heir by host-mother at Cincinnati Children's
Hospital while the happy parents were vacationing in Peru." Although the
practice supposedly goes back to biblical times, this seems to be an
accurate prediction of the widespread use and acceptance of birth by
surrogate mother.

  On a more humorous note, also in _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the leader
of the free world (Secretary General of the World Federation of Free
States) is a well-meaning, almost competent, but uninspired man. Contrary
to popular image, he actually gets all his orders from his wife. And she,
in turn, will not make a move without first consulting her astrologer.
Sound like anyone we know? (Here's a hint: they're in the White House until
January.) Knowing OMNI's occasional interest in political folly and/or the
occult, this might be of value.

>Jules Verne's predictions on submarines, and H. G. Wells' stories, come
>quickly to mind, but neither of us is intimately familiar with them;

   Verne, if I have him placed correctly in history, wasn't completely
making up submarines. Small, experimental ones (really little more than
diving bells and diving capsules) were used during the late 19th century,
if I can believe what I see on PBS. And what about the "American Turtle"?
Wasn't that used during the Revolutionary War? But as to speed, technology,
and self-contained-ness, Verne was pretty accurate.

   You might be better off looking at "From the Earth to the Moon". The
method of space travel and what was found on the moon are a little off the
mark, but I think some of the in-flight experiences will ring true (but I
read it in elementary school).

   What of Wells's work has become fact? All I know is "War of the Worlds",
"The Time Machine", and "The Invisible Man", and none of those things have
come to pass.

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 88 21:48:41 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@swan.ulowell.edu (Pete Granger)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

boreas@bucsb.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature) writes:
>Hmmm.  Lessee, in _Oath_of_Fealty_, Niven&Pournelle mentioned that Robert
>Heinlein predicted/invented sliding walkways ("The Roads Must Roll"), the
>waldo ("Waldo"), and the waterbed.  (I've never noticed where he did that
>last one.  Anyone know??)

That's from _Stranger in a Strange Land_. When brought to earth, Valentine
Michael Smith (ever wonder where the VMS operating system got its name?)
couldn't handle earth-normal gravity, so he was kept in a floatation bed to
relieve the stress on his body.

This was written in 1961, though. Didn't waterbeds exist by then, even if
they weren't in common use?

Pete Granger
...!{decvax,ulowell,ima,ism780c}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 88 04:28:34 GMT
From: bsadrc!usenet@uunet.uu.net (Darrel R. Carver)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

rjc@uk.ac.ed.aipna (Richard Caley) writes:
>john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) writes:
>>How about geosynchronous telecommunications satellites?  Why do you think
>>they call it the Clarke Orbit (or are starting to, anyway)?  

In a prior job I worked for a magazine publishing company that specialized
in magazines for the home satellite dish market (SATELLITE DIRECT and
SATELLITE ORBIT).  The editorial staff at the time (less than a year ago)
referred to this orbit and satellites in it as the 'Clarke Belt'.

BTW: The owner used to keep a copy of a letter from Clarke framed in his
office (it was just after ORBIT did a cover story on Clarke).  All I can
say is I am glad they don't publish his work in his own handwritting.  It
is terrible!

Darrel R. Carver
Computer Sciences Corporation	
White Plains, NY 10606
uunet!bsadrc!drc
att!wp3b01!drc
attmail!dcarver

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 88 02:55:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions ("spoilers"

>Don't forget "By the Waters of Babylon."  I forget who it was written by
>(which is bad, because I think its one of those "real literature" authors
>I'm ususally so fond of.  Written (I believe) even before WWII, it
>describes a post-apocalypse new your and the adventures of a young boy who
>journeys to this "city of the gods" 	It's VERY good, and I heard
>somewhere that it was so accurate that the FBI checked him out for being a
>security risk!  If anyone could fill me in on who the author was it
>would be much appreciated.

It's Stephen Vincent Benet.  I haven't read anything else by him, but I'll
have to one of these days.  I do know he wrote the story "The Sobbin'
Women", on which "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" was based.

Bryan Stout
uiucdcs!stout
stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 88 14:33:45 GMT
From: salaris@pc.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven C Salaris)
Subject: SF Predictions

   The other day, I was reading a posting on this discussion of predictions
in science fiction and who made them.  There was a question posted about
whether or not H.G. Wells had made any relevant predictions like Jules
Verne.
   Although Wells focused a lot on Utopian societies in several of his
novels, he did write one book that was a little ahead of its time.
   The book is called "The World Set Free" and it is about a group of
scientists that are able to rearrange matter and react it to form gold and
LOTS of energy.  Basically, it was about nuclear fusion and the energy was
clean and it created gold.
   It has been ages since I read this book so forgive me if I screw up a
detail or two.  The world goes crazy over the new energy and the fact that
gold is produced.  Unfortunately, the world economy collapses because gold
loses its worth and eventually the people invent fusion bombs and blow each
other up.  I forget how the bok ends, but I believe that a few people
manage to get the planet back on its feet again.
   If you want to read the book, try your local university library because
I believe that the book is long out of print.  It took me a long time
before I found a copy for myself.
  Anyways, even though H.G. Wells was no Jules Verne, he does deserve some
recognition as having written some material that was ahead of its time.  Oh
yes, the book was written in 1933, long before the advent of nuclear
fission or nuclear fusion bombs.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 88 00:47:00 GMT
From: ahiggins@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions ("spoilers"

w25y@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU writes:
>    One thing Arthur C. Clarke did hit fairly close to the mark on-- he
> predicted that his geosynchronous comm sattelites could be used to
> broadcast TV programs that violated the current "decency" standards for
> ground-based

Arthur C. Clarke has said of his October 1945 _Wireless World_ article,"I
suspect that my early disclosure may have advanced the cause of space
communications by approximately fifteen minutes....Or perhaps twenty."

Another of Clarke's ideas which has yet to be realized is the
electromagnetic launcher (or "mass driver").  Although references to
electromagnetic launchers can be found as far back as the 1930's pulp
science fiction, Clarke was the first to discipline the idea with
mathematics and physics (see "Electromagnetic Launching as a Major
Contribution to Space-Flight," _Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society_, November 1950).  This article is also the first to suggest
electromagnetic launching from the Moon, which is often considered the only
viable place for such an operation.

It is interesting to note that although Clarke wrote the article in 1950,
he did not use the concept in science fiction until 1962 with the short
story "Maelstrom II" (recently novelized as part of the Venus Prime
series).

Andrew J. Higgins
404 1/2 E. White St apt 3
Champaign IL  61820      
(217) 359-0056   
ahiggins@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 88 12:40:19 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

seanf@sco.COM (Sean Fagan) writes:
>What Verne described was a *nuclear* submarine (I think he actually
>described something that "harnessed the power of the atom," or somesuch).
>Assuming my memory is not making me make a fool of myself, this was indeed
>something which could be described as a "prediction," and is why the first
>nuclear powered submarine was called "The Nautilus."

My turn for fool trials....

I seem to remember the Captain giving a discussion on the extraction of
chemicals from the sea at the Island (name?) that would make a very
powerful battery.  Too powerful to be real, in fact.  The movie (Disney)
DID have some "power from the atom" in it, but I do not remember the book
having it...

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 02:37:46 GMT
From: c60a-3dx@web-3d.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: SF "predictions"

One of the interesting aspects of SF "predictions" is not only the
technological changes, but the changes in society due to advances in
technology.  For example, in 1901, H. G. Welles wrote a book entitled
"Anticipations of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific Progress upon
Human Life and Thought.", in which he predicted the automobile and the
motor age.  In 1941, Robert Heinlein (writing under the name Anson
MacDonald) wrote "Solution Unsatisfactory", in which he predicts the
nuclear weapon, the American monopoly of that weapon, and the nuclear arms
race.

(These examples courtesy Isaac Asimov)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 07:36:49 GMT
From: NEWMARK@grin1.bitnet
Subject: (none)

spw@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steve Wartik) writes:
>My sister is doing research for a piece for Omni Magazine that will
>include predictions by science fiction writers that have become reality.

Here are two of my favorite predictions:

1) Ray Bradbury's short story about people staying inside all night long
listening to TV that it becomes strange and almost illegal for someone just
to walk outside for some fresh air.  (I think this and some other short
stories were later combined to form the novel Fahrenheit 451)

It hasn't happened yet, but is very close to it seems, and he wrote it way
before TV had reached the point it has today.

2) Isaac Asimov's short story on everyone owning a pocket calculator, not
knowing how to do math by hand, and one day a person reinvents mathematics.

I wish I knew the title of either of these two stories.
I am sure somebody does out there.

Newmark@Grin1.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 16:18:29 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: SF Predictions

Verne's "City in the Sahara" has something that acts remarkably like a
surveillance radar (all done with mirrors).

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 88 14:19:30 GMT
From: jarvis@caf.mit.edu (Jarvis Jacobs)
Subject: Has anyone rated sf-novels before 1953?

The Hugo and Nebula awards, as a group, rate sf-novels from 1953 to the
present.  Has anyone rated sf-novels before 1953?

Thanks

jarvis@caf.mit.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 2 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 311

Today's Topics:

	  Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Clarke (5 msgs) & Haldeman &
                  Heinlein & May & Palmer & Rice & Stigler & 
                  Zelazny (2 msgs) & Looking for Authors (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 01:22:56 GMT
From: schwartz@shire.cs.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Subject: Re: proper reading order (was Re: FOUNDATION Pent/Hexology?)

richa@tekred (Rich Amber ) writes:
[ bunch-o-titles by asimov ]

Ok.  Anyone feel like adding the "Lucky Starr" series to this list?  I've
always kind of thought that it could be worked into the the
foundation/robots series without too much bending and twisting.  Nobody
mention that to Asimov, though. :-)

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.cs.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 00:47:15 GMT
From: w25y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: proper reading order (was Re: FOUNDATION Pent/Hexology?)

richa@tekred.TEK.COM (Rich Amber ) writes:
>For John and Jay and all the others who have asked, I believe I saw the
>list in the front of PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION.  If you haven't got that one
>yet, here's the list (ala Asimov):
[most of list deleted]
>	THE CURRENTS OF SPACE 	(empire series, book 1)
>	THE STARS, LIKE DUST  	(empire series, book 2)

    These two should be the other way around.  The empire already exists in
_The Currents of Space_, but not in _The Stars Like Dust_.  It is still
generally known in TSLD that humans originated on Earth, but in TCOS,
nobody believes the Earthman when he makes this claim.

W25Y@CRNLVAX5
W25Y@VAX5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 88 23:45:00 GMT
From: lmhg0369@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Clarke info

A couple of things on A. C. Clarke:
   Since he seems to have succumbed to sequel-mania with 2001, any rumors
or talk about his doing something with his earlier works, such as
_The_City_ and_the_Stars_?  I think it'd be neat if he'd continue on with
that story, although when he derived it from _Against_the_Fall_of_Night_,
he promised that it would be the last that he'd write on Diaspar & Lys.
Rats.

   Also, before I go and spend money on them, what are the Venus Prime
books?  At first glance it seems that they're works commissioned by him
from other authors (???).  Any common story line?

   If anybody's interested, check out local libraries to read some of his
earlier, out-of-print works, such as The Lion of Comarre.  Good stuff.

Lloyd Haskins
haskins@s.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 88 22:04:00 GMT
From: ahiggins@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Clarke info

From haskins@s.cs.uiuc.edu (Lloyd Haskins):
>    Since he seems to have succumbed to sequel-mania with 2001, any rumors
> or talk about his doing something with his earlier works, such as
> _The_City_

Clarke is just finishing _Rendezvous with Rama II_, which is co-authored
with Gentry Lee (one time head of NASA's Galileo Project and producer of
Carl Sagan's COSMOS).  They have also agreed to write a third book in the
series (remember,"The Ramans do everthing in threes").

The latest issue of _Locus_ contained a letter from Clarke in which he says
he is working on a television show based on _The Fall of Moondust_.

>   Also, before I go and spend money on them, what are the Venus Prime
> books?  At first glance it seems that they're works commissioned by him
> from other authors (???).  Any common story line?

The books are novelizations of some of Clarke's short stories.  The two
avaible now have been authored by Paul Preuss, and according to _Locus_, he
has agreed to write four more books in the series.  The Venus Prime series
shares a common story line, along with characters and settings.  

Andrew J. Higgins
404 1/2 E. White St apt 3
Champaign IL  61820      
(217) 359-0056   
ahiggins@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 88 17:33:37 GMT
From: kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Samuel N. Kamens)
Subject: Re: Clarke info

lmhg0369@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
>   Also, before I go and spend money on them, what are the Venus Prime
>books?  At first glance it seems that they're works commissioned by him
>from other authors (???).  Any common story line?

About the Venus Prime books.  It seems that Clarke, in one of his stories/
books (don't ask me which one, I don't know) created this space station
Venus Prime.  And now some guy (Paul Presser, or something, I think) is
writing a series of books set there, about this one chick.

I've read the two books that seem to be out in this new series - they're
OK, but I wouldn't buy them because of Clarke.  They are certainly not
classics.

Sam Kamens

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 00:44:28 GMT
From: mic!d25001@convex.convex.com (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Beyond the Fall of Night (was: Re: Clarke info)

lmhg0369@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
 >   Since he seems to have succumbed to sequel-mania with 2001, any rumors
>or talk about his doing something with his earlier works, such as
>_The_City_ and_the_Stars_?  I think it'd be neat if he'd continue on with
>that story, although when he derived it from _Against_the_Fall_of_Night_,
>he promised that it would be the last that he'd write on Diaspar & Lys.
>Rats.
 
   Funny that you should ask just now.  The latest (November) issue of
SF_Chronicle came last night, and it claims that Clarke and Gregory Benford
will collaborate on _Beyond_the_Fall_of_Night_, a sequel.  The book will be
in two parts, the original Clarke short novel and an original novella
sequel by Benford.  Thus we get the sequel without Clarke actually writing
further about Diaspar himself.
   Will it be any good?  Don't know.  At least Benford isn't the tyro that
we usually get doing this sort of thing.

Carrington Dixon
{ convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 17:15:14 GMTF
rom: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Clarke info (Paul Preuss)

kamens@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Samuel N. Kamens) writes:
>About the Venus Prime books.  It seems that Clarke, in one of his stories/
>books (don't ask me which one, I don't know) created this space station
>Venus Prime.  And now some guy (Paul Presser, or something, I think) is
>writing a series of books set there, about this one chick.

The name you're searching for is Paul Preuss.  The books are actually
novelizations of Clarke stories.  Here's a letter in the Nov 88 LOCUS from
Paul:

   Certainly I was happy to read Dan Chow's positive response to ARTHUR C.
   CLARKE'S VENUS PRIME 2: MAELSTROM.  Lest Dan's readers mislead him, let
   me emphasize that there is as much or more Clarke in MAELSTROM as there
   was in BREAKING STRAIN.  Arthur's 1965 story "Maelstrom II" is central
   to the plot and appears virtually in its entirety.  The pursuit of
   Culture X comes from Arthur's 1951 story "Jupiter V", which will be the
   basis of volume 5.

   Some of us sharecroppers relish the rich soil we're tilling.

   Paul Preuss

I haven't read any of the VENUS PRIME books yet, but I recently read Paul's
BROKEN SYMMETRIES from 1983.  I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that it
was the best hard science fiction novel I've ever read.  The characters
actually live!  The theme is about human beings rather than science!  The
plot wasn't tacked on as an afterthought to the exposition!  It's great,
read it!

>I've read the two books that seem to be out in this new series - they're
>OK, but I wouldn't buy them because of Clarke.  They are certainly not
>classics.

There's damn little SF that deserves the "classic" label....

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 88 05:14:50 GMT
From: jkiparsk@csli.stanford.edu (Jonathan Kiparsky)
Subject: Re: Real Battles in Space

MILLERA@grin1.BITNET (Alan J Miller) writes:

>You might also look at _The_Forever_War_ by Joe Haldeman (I think).  This
>is a fairly old book, and I haven't read it in quite a while, but it seems
>to me that it used almost entirely the physics that we currently know.

Great book. If you read _Starship Trooper_, this is the antidote. He does
make one or two "additions" to current physics, but he is good enough that
you don't notice. Also, check out his collection _Dealing In Futures_,
which contains the original, better center section, plus a some good short
stuff.  

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 01:09:38 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!odlin@gatech.edu (Iain Odlin)
Subject: Re: RAH books out again?

silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>Are the following Heinlein books out in paperback again?  There seems to
>be a push to reprint all his works, and these were among my favorites:

>Waldo Inc.

Yes ("Magic Inc. and Waldo")

>The Puppet Masters

Yes

>We Also Walk Dogs

We Also Walk Dogs" is a short story and as such has been re-printed in
numerous places.

Iain Odlin
Box 1014
Reed College
Portland OR, 97202
odlin@reed
{backbone}!tektronix!reed!odlin

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 19:02:47 GMT
From: arcturus!mitch@dhw68k.cts.com (Mitchell S. Gorman)
Subject: Re: Julian May's new series

chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>Does anybody have any specific information regarding the publication date
>>of Jack the Bodiless by Julian May?  The sleeve notes on Intervention
>>stated 1988, but the year is beginning to slip away...
>
> I've seen nothing on it yet, which implies February at the earliest.
> Looks like another casualty in the "argh! this book is taking forever!"
> school of writing trilogies....

WUZZAT???   NEW MAY???

I'd spent a lot of time trying to find the prequel series I thought had to
exist (on Jack the Bodiless, Blessed Diamond Mask, et al), but finally gave
up.

So now she's finally gotten around to writing it, huh?  Great!  Strange bit
of coincidence for me, though, as I just started re-reading the series
again (is this the 4th time?  the 5th?  who keeps track?!?!?).

Somebody please keep me posted with full details, like whether any of the
new series has already been released, in hard- or softcover, etc.  Thanks
in very large quantities!!

Mitch

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 15:33:50 GMT
From: linus!bs@spdcc.com (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: David R, Palmer book

David R. Palmer's 'To Halt Armagedon: Box No. 2' is listed under books in
print as having appeared in 1987.

I called the publisher, Bantam Books, seeking to obtain a copy because I
had not seen it.

According to them it was never published because they never received the
manuscript. They also commented that they believe that it is unlikely that
it ever will be published since it's been over 2 years since its due date.

Does anyone know whether Palmer intends to write this book? It is the
sequel to his book: Threshhold.

Does Chuqui know anything about this? Can anyone find out?

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 16:42:50 GMT
From: bondc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Clay M Bond)
Subject: Vampire_Chronicles, part 3.

I just finished Anne Rice's new book, _Queen of the Damned_, and I liked it
nearly as well as I did Lestat.  There is more going on in it than the
former two, largely because there are several sub-plots.  One of these
sub-plots she develops particularly well, in such a way that one is
puzzled, then ripping through it to find out just how it works in with the
rest of the story.

Like her former two (and indeed, the S&M erotica she has written under the
name Rocquelaure, _The Erotic Adventures of Sleeping Beauty_ [I think]), it
is well written, evoking very effective images, sometimes lovely, sometimes
sensual, sometimes horrible, and most often all three, and is as blatantly
homo-erotic as her former two.  Towards the end I found myself wondering if
a few of her political biases were being not-so-gently thrust in my face,
but it was by no means enough to spoil my enjoyment of her book.

It's worth the hard-cover price.  And on the last page, she promises that
the Vampire Chronicles will continue ...

Clay Bond
IU Department of Linguistics
bondc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 22:42:38 GMT
From: botteron@bu-cs.bu.edu (Carol J. Botteron)
Subject: _David's_Sling_ hypertext

The novel _David's_Sling_ by Marc Stigler has a phone number in the back
for ordering a hypertext version.  (The author works for Xanadu.)

Unfortunately, a friend of his told me, after the book went to press the
phone company changed the number.  The correct number is 800-877-2232 x653.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 88 15:17:11 GMT
From: kwatts%tahquitz@sun.com (Kevin L. Watts)
Subject: Amber!(related)

I was recently able to peruse the "Guided Tour of Castle Amber" or what
ever it is called, and I have a few questions about it. Did Roger really
have anything to do with it? There seems to be a bit of discontinuity.
Anyway, aside from that there was a cryptic line after a paragraph about
"Random being crowned king by all of us in the great hall and at the same
time we took Vaile as our Queen."

Then a new paragraph starts....

   "That night I met a traveller from an antique land,
   his legs were strong, and they were not trunkless."

To what in shadow is this refering?

Kev

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 88 21:26:44 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Amber!(related)

kwatts%tahquitz@Sun.COM (Kevin L. Watts) writes:
> I was recently able to peruse the "Guided Tour of Castle Amber" or what
> ever it is called, and I have a few questions about it. Did Roger really
> have anything to do with it?

In the foreward--or logical equivalent--it is claimed that a group visited
Zelazny and picked his brains for 4 days to get the material for the book.

I would imagine it was a little more formal than that, and that he supplied
data from his own background notes.

Did you notice that --contrary to claims--the drawing of the characters do
*not* look like the trumps are described?  (I.e. You can't *see* Corwin's
boots that he describes in "9 Princes . . ." when he first sees his own
trump.)

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 88 00:08:52 GMT
From: sun.soe!stadnism@rutgers.edu ( Steven Stadnicki)
Subject: Ripples on the Dirac Sea

Has anyone else read the story in the title?  What is the general opinion
out there in networld (Niven, are you listening?)?  I thought (uh-oh.
Personal opinion time) that it was one of the best stories I've read in
about a year, although it seemed to me that the flashbacks were overdone a
bit.  Any other opinions?  Also, what other stories has the author (don't
remember the name) written?  (With my luck, the author will be somebody
like O. S. Card, and I'll get a twenty-page recommended reading list)

Steven Stadnicki
stadnism@clutx.clarson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 88 19:27:00 GMT
From: bso@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Help in finding story

Several years ago I read a great short story called "The Ifth of Oofth" (or
something like that) in a collection entitled _Science_Fact/Fiction_ (or
something like that).  Now, however, I can't seem to locate the book and
can't remember the name of the story's author.

Any help?

Jake Keklikian
Univ of Illinois

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 02:12:03 GMT
From: bsadrc!usenet@uunet.uu.net (Darrel R. Carver)
Subject: In Search of...

Three authors I have read and enjoyed lately.  I am in search of other
books they may have written.

David Brin: Has anyone else been reading much of Brin's stuff?  I didn't
mind the Startide novels (STARTIDE RISING and THE UPLIFT WAR) but I really
liked THE POSTMAN, PRACTICE EFFECT, and HEART OF THE COMET. (I will even
accept co-author status at the moment).

Orson Scott Card: Has there been a sequel to SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD?  I have
read ENDERS WAR and am just starting on his SEVENTH SON SERIES.

John Steakley: I have only read one by him so far (ARMOR) but it was great!

Also, I am looking for comments on the Lensman books that were being ghost
written there for a while.  I believe they had one titled THE DRAGON
LENSMAN. These were supposed to be about the adventures of the five Second
Stage Lensman (lenspersons? lensthings?) during the years the Children of
the Lens were growing up.  Anyone read them?  What did you think?  

Darrel R. Carver
Computer Sciences Corporation
White Plains, NY 10606
uunet!bsadrc!drc
att!wp3b01!drc 
attmail!dcarver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Wednesday, 2 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 312

Today's Topics:

		Books - Card (10 msgs) & McCaffrey (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 14:32:53 GMT
From: markb@maxzilla.encore.com (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: In Search of...

usenet@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) writes:
>Orson Scott Card: Has there been a sequel to SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD?  I have
>read ENDERS WAR and am just starting on his SEVENTH SON SERIES.

   According to Scott, who I heard speak in June, "Ender's Children" is
sold and plotted, and will be delivered to the publisher sometime next
year.  Given usual lag times, expect it in late 89 or early 90.

   The third book in the "Tales of Alvin Maker", "'Prentice Alvin", should
be out in hardcover in January.

Mark Bernstein

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 08:02:25 GMT
From: GRV101@psuvm.bitnet
Subject: Ender

I recently finished reading ENDER'S WAR and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson
Scott Card. These books could very well be the best science fiction I have
read in over two years. Would anyone like to post their opinions, comments,
or trivia pertaining to these books?

Gregson R. Vaux

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 18:34:59 GMT
From: pcp2g@bessel.acc.virginia.edu (Philip C. Plait)
Subject: Re: Ender

GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>I recently finished reading ENDER'S WAR and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson
>Scott Card. These books could very well be the best science fiction I have
>read in over two years. Would anyone like to post their opinions,
>comments, or trivia pertaining to these books?

I agree. OSC writes science fiction the way it's supposed to be. When I was
younger, and just starting out reading science fiction, I liked the "space-
ship" novels, the "zap the aliens" novels, etc. Now I like things with more
emotions, more of a touch of humanity. "Ender's Game" was a tremendous
example of this. I try to tell my sceptical friends that sf isn't just
"Star Wars" and (shudder) "Battlestar Galactica". I use that novel as my
example.

Phil Plait
UVa Dept. of Astronomy
PCP2G@bessel.acc.virginia.EDU
PCP2G@Virginia

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 01:05:04 GMT
From: llkl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (L Kleiner )
Subject: Re: Ender

GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>I recently finished reading ENDER'S WAR and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson
>Scott Card. These books could very well be the best science fiction I have
>read in over two years. Would anyone like to post their opinions,
>comments, or trivia pertaining to these books?  Gregson R. Vaux

I just _love_ Card.  His writing just strikes that cognitive something
inside of me.  If you want to read a (rather nasty) editorial on _Ender's
War_, check out Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine "About Books".
Within the past year Norman Spinrad (a truly pitiful SF writer - has anyone
actually been able to finish one of his books?) attacked Card's writing
style, addressed the sup- posed inadaquacy of his themes, dull plots, and
his Mormonistic messages in his books.  By reading these attacks on Card's
works, I noticed what I liked about Card - his writing, his themes, his
plots.  I didn't pick up on the Mormonistic undertones.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 07:29:53 GMT
From: brantley@vax1.acs.udel.edu (brantley)
Subject: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

llkl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (L Kleiner) writes:
>I just _love_ Card.  His writing just strikes that cognitive something
>inside of me.  If you want to read a (rather nasty) editorial on _Ender's
>War_, check out Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine "About Books".
>Within the past year Norman Spinrad (a truly pitiful SF writer - has
>anyone actually been able to finish one of his books?) attacked Card's
>writing style, addressed the sup- posed inadaquacy of his themes, dull
>plots, and his Mormonistic messages in his books.  By reading these
>attacks on Card's works, I noticed what I liked about Card - his writing,
>his themes, his plots.  I didn't pick up on the Mormonistic undertones.

I also really enjoyed _Ender's Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_, but I
didn't find out until I was finished reading them both that Card was
Mormon.  If you are not Mormon, and don't know much about the Mormon
religion, you will not see those themes at all in Card's work.  Spinrad's
arguments in his editorial were pretty lame, especially this particular
one.  Card's Mormon influences are extrememly unobtrusive; he's not out to
convert sf-readers to Mormonism. :-)

brantley@vax1.acs.udel.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 15:18:18 GMT
From: cloud9!cme@encore.encore.com (Carl Ellison)
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

I'm in the middle of Ender's Game and set it down a few weeks ago -- may
pick it up soon.  Needless to say, after all the hype about Card being so
good, I'm surprised that I find myself not turned on.

I think the thing which bothers me the most is the persistent manipulation,
through cruelty, of Ender.  The former is bad enough.  The latter is
unnecessary in my opinion, although it might be necessary to the plot.  I
won't know until I finish the book.

Does this get better? ...or am I in for 1.5 more books of continued
cruelty?  (the rest of Ender's Game and all of Speaker...)??

In a way, this reminds me of what I heard about Vietnam draftees -- young
kids, leading otherwise normal lives, brought into the Army and taught
through abuse to be killers.  It feels almost like I'm being taught to be
that kind of killer myself, just by reading Ender....

Carl Ellison
...!harvard!anvil!es!cme
...!ulowell!cloud9!cme

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 18:17:10 GMT
From: mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

>I'm in the middle of Ender's Game and set it down a few weeks ago -- may
>pick it up soon.  Needless to say, after all the hype about Card being so
>good, I'm surprised that I find myself not turned on.
>
>I think the thing which bothers me the most is the persistent
>manipulation, through cruelty, of Ender.  The former is bad enough.  The
>latter is unnecessary in my opinion, although it might be necessary to the
>plot.  I won't know until I finish the book.

  It is necessary to the plot. The real center of Enders Game isn't a story
about some kid being trained to be a commander, it's more about the
horrible inhumanity that the people are charge are willing to do in the
name of what they consider right. It's is horrible, and cruel, but, as they
say, war is hell.

>Does this get better? ...or am I in for 1.5 more books of continued
>cruelty?  (the rest of Ender's Game and all of Speaker...)??

  Enders game continues that way. That book is basically one of my favorite
books of all time - but it is definitely horrible in it's own way. Card
creates a character who is SO real to me, and then shows him as the
commanders destroy him, little by little, until in the end, we're left with
a guilt-ridden child who isn't even capable of being happy anymore.
  Speaker for the Dead is not so cruel. It is an absolutely necessary
sequel - in SftD, Ender comes to terms with what he did, and actually ends
up happy. It's one of the few books that I like even better then Enders
Game.

>In a way, this reminds me of what I heard about Vietnam draftees -- young
>kids, leading otherwise normal lives, brought into the Army and taught
>through abuse to be killers.  It feels almost like I'm being taught to be
>that kind of killer myself, just by reading Ender....

I think that's the whole point of it.

   Finish reading it. It's one of the few SF books that I recommend to
non-sf readers to prove that there are real, talented people in SF, who can
write a real story, with real characters, and real issues. I've hooked more
people on SF with Card, and that book in particular that anything else.
Card is a wonderfully talented man.

Mark Craig Carroll
mccarrol@topaz.rutgers.edu
...backbone!rutgers!topaz!mccarrol

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 02:10:15 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

cme@cloud9 (Carl Ellison) writes:
>I'm in the middle of Ender's Game and set it down a few weeks ago -- may
>pick it up soon.  Needless to say, after all the hype about Card being so
>good, I'm surprised that I find myself not turned on.

  Since some of the people hyping Card are the sort of pinheads who think
Spinrad is terrible and awful, why be surprised? Just take "Ender's Game"
as ordinary sf schlock and not something deserving of an award or anything
and you'll find it okay. He's written worse stuff, that's for sure.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 01:44:00 GMT
From: hound!rkl1@att.att.com (K.LAUX)
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

cme@cloud9.UUCP (Carl Ellison) writes:
>I'm in the middle of Ender's Game and set it down a few weeks ago -- may
>pick it up soon.  Needless to say, after all the hype about Card being so
>good, I'm surprised that I find myself not turned on.
>
>I think the thing which bothers me the most is the persistent
>manipulation, through cruelty, of Ender.  The former is bad enough.  The
>latter is unnecessary in my opinion, although it might be necessary to the
>plot.  I won't know until I finish the book.
>
>Does this get better? ...or am I in for 1.5 more books of continued
>cruelty?  (the rest of Ender's Game and all of Speaker...)??

   You really have to finish EG to understand the full situation of why
there is the need to train(?) Ender and what They hope Ender can do for
them.

   No you are definitely NOT in for 1.5 more books of continued cruelty.
Quite the opposite.  Take a moment to think about the title of the second
book: Speaker For The Dead.

   'Nuff said for now...don't want to spoil it too much.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 06:46:32 GMT
From: dsb@rational.com (David S. Bakin)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to have
a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this (or
care)?  

Dave Bakin
c/o Rational
3320 Scott Blvd.
Santa Clara, CA 95054-3197
(408) 496-3600
Internet: dsb@rational.com
Uucp:  ...!uunet!igor!dsb

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 88 16:43:57 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Has anyone read the new Pern book?

>Has anyone had the chance to read McCaffrey's latest Pern novel
>_Dragondawn_.  If so, what did you think?  Is it worth buying the
>hardback, or should I wait for the paperback version?

I looked over it, rather quickly.

The impression I got was about half new story and half "oh, look, they just
discovered X." The story was fairly good; the references got annoying after
a while. (In the first ten pages, they mentioned wherries, grubs, and
glows.)

Should you buy it? I don't know, how much money do you have lying around?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 04:14:25 GMT
From: cpiy@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Has anyone read the new Pern book?

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>>Has anyone had the chance to read McCaffrey's latest Pern novel
>>_Dragondawn_.  If so, what did you think?  Is it worth buying the
>>hardback, or should I wait for the paperback version?
>
>I looked over it, rather quickly.
>
>The impression I got was about half new story and half "oh, look, they
>just discovered X." The story was fairly good; the references got annoying
>after a while. (In the first ten pages, they mentioned wherries, grubs,
>and glows.)

I appologize in advance for any offensive mistakes that I may make.  This
is my first attempt at posting, though I've been reading this board for a
while now.

My first impression was, also, that this would be a story that was almost
all restatement of stuff that I already knew.  However, when my boyfriend
actually finished reading it and passed it along to me, I found myself
drawn into the characterization in the story, and ignoring most of the "oh,
look what we've discovered. wow!" stuff. In fact I thought that she handled
it all very well.

As to whether you should buy it now or wait for paperback, I'd try to find
someone to borrow it from and decide for yourself.  If this is not a
feasible option, it really depends on how much you like McCaffrey in
general, and whether or not you have the rest of the books in hardcover or
paperback.  Myself, I have them all in paperback so I'm waiting to buy
until then.

Hope that helps :-)                        

janis

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 09:20:10 GMT
From: Sorceress@cup.portal.com (Jan nmi Saint-Martin)
Subject: Re: Has anyone read the new Pern book?

Yes, I would (and have) purchased the hardback. It is by far the best one
she has come out with yet. It explains the beginning of Pern and the
dragons in a most interesting way.

I don't know where Mr. Plotkin arrived at the idea that wherries and glows
were mentioned in the first 10 pages. In my copy of the book, the ships
carrying the colonists to Pern don't even arrive there in the 1st 10 pages.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did!

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 88 20:17:49 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: new Pern book - trivia

>I don't know where Mr. Plotkin arrived at the idea that wherries and glows
>were mentioned in the first 10 pages. In my copy of the book, the ships
>carrying the colonists to Pern don't even arrive there in the 1st 10
>pages.

All right, it was page eleven. They haven't landed yet, but someone
mentions that a previous crew named the things "wherries", and someone else
mentions "luminescent mycelia" and the great variety of worm and grub life.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 01:49:27 GMT
From: ut6y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
Subject: _The People of Pern_

_The People of Pern_
Text by Anne McCaffrey
Art by Robin Wood

Warning
The following post may contain important information regarding Anne
McCaffrey's "Pern" stories and characters.  Anyone who feels that their
enjoyment either of the reviewed work or related works would be destroyed
by continuing should bug out now.

The author assumes no responsibility for spoiled appetites.

I had just come down off of my _DragonsDawn_ high.  I had just stopped
dreaming of dragons at night.  Then, I walked into B. Daltons, and WHAMMMO,
there it was, all over again, as bad as before, for there, sitting on the
shelf, was _The People of Pern_, by Anne McCaffrey and Robin Wood.

_TPoP_ is primarily an art book.  The book contains a large number of high-
quality paintings and sketches of the characters of McCaffrey's first eight
Pern books, accompanied by Anne's own descriptions of the characters.  Anne
had a large hand how her characters were represented, so these visions can
be considiered "canonical" -- particularly those of Master Harper Robinton
and Menolly, both of which are based on the same real people the characters
were based on.

Speaking of Master Robinton -- the portrait in the book is what convinced
me to buy the book, and apparently part of what convinced Anne to have the
book done, and rightly so.  It is absolutly beautiful, as are all its
companions.  Robin Wood, who's previous Pern fame relates to the Mayfair
games version of /DragonRiders of Pern/, clearly has a feel for Pern.

Also of interest are the small spoilers Anne gives for future books (yes,
there are more on the way -- that she divulges not-so-subtly in her
introduction).  Whether Anne actually plans to write into Pern's "future"
(that is, the time after _White Dragon_) or not, she definitely appears to
have thought up interesting additions to the dimensions of several
characters, including F'nor, Brekke, T'gellan, Mirrim, and Jaxom.

My ratings:
Uninitiated Types: Read the books first!!!!! THEN get this.
Casual fans: May want to wait for the paperback or the SFBC edition, if
             nothing else because the thing is expensive.
Slobbering junkies like me: Get it.  Get it NOW!!!!!!

Michael Scott Shappe
208 Dryden Road Apartment 304
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/277-6461
BITNET: UT6Y@CRNLVAX5
InterNet: UT6Y@vax5.ccs.cornell.edu
UUCP:...!rochester!cornell!vax5!ut6y

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 7 Nov 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 313

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Smith (7 msgs) &
                                 Children's Literature (2 msgs) &
                                 Requests (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 02:27:25 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

usenet@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) writes...
>Also, I am looking for comments on the Lensman books that were being ghost
>written there for a while.  I believe they had one titled THE DRAGON
>LENSMAN. These were supposed to be about the adventures of the five Second
>Stage Lensman (lenspersons? lensthings?) during the years the Children of
>the Lens were growing up.  Anyone read them?  What did you think?

_The Dragon Lensman_ wasn't particularly great... It was rather obviously
an imitation of Doc Smith's style, but it didn't add anything significant.
Rather, it added some new elements (a conspiracy of sapient machines, for
example), but those elements didn't seem to go anywhere. On the other hand,
I never saw any of the sequels (were they even written?) so it might have
tied up later on.

As a series, I don't see how it could have done much; you can't go on to
great conquests when the climactic events are already written. The ghost
authors would have had to invent a Great Threat from scratch, and I don't
know if they could have matched the flamboyance of the original.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 06:30:42 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>_The Dragon Lensman_ wasn't particularly great...
> ...  On the other hand, I never saw any of
>the sequels (were they even written?) so it might have tied up later on.

I saw at least two others -- "The Z Lensman", about good 'ol Nadrek the
Palanian, and "Lensman from Rigel", about Tregonsee.  I didn't read any of
them.  I took one look at the cover art for "The Dragon Lensman, which
depicted Worsel as looking more like one of Star Trek's Gorn than anything
described by E. E. "Doc" Smith, and decided I didn't want my memories of
the Lensman universe besmirched.

Of course, I might read them now, as nothing could besmirch that memory
more than that abomination of an animated version from Japan.  (I should
have known better -- but "Nausica" was so good, I had hoped...)

I'd sure like to know what Smith had planned for the book after "Children
of the Lens".  I can make a few good guesses, based on what Heinlein said
about the plot, but that isn't the same.

vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 01:43:44 GMT
From: bsadrc!usenet@uunet.uu.net (Darrel R. Carver)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

vanpelt@unisv.SV.UNISYS.COM (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>Of course, I might read them now, as nothing could besmirch that memory
>more than that abomination of an animated version from Japan.  (I should
>have known better -- but "Nausica" was so good, I had hoped...)

Say what?  I am not sure of your reference.  Was there some kind of cartoon
done based on the lensman series?  I may be glad I missed it, but I would
like to know what I missed.

>I'd sure like to know what Smith had planned for the book after
>"Children of the Lens".  I can make a few good guesses, based on what
>Heinlein said about the plot, but that isn't the same.

I assume you read Masters of the Vortex.  It really had nothing to do with
rest of the series although it was set in the lensman universe.  I had
originally thought that was what the ghost written ones would be like.

There was another series floating around from Smith also (The Family
D'Am... (something)).  I read the first one and then stopped.  Any opinons
on this series?  Some of his other novels, Sub Space Explorers and
Spacehounds of the IPC were pretty good.  I guess nostalgia has set in.  I
am wondering if there has been some other books written by Smith that I
missed.  Anybody got a full list?

Darrel R. Carver		                          
Computer Sciences Corporation
White Plains, NY 10606
uunet!bsadrc!drc
att!wp3b01!drc
attmail!dcarver

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 18:48:02 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

usenet@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) writes:
>Say what?  I am not sure of your reference.  Was there some kind of
>cartoon done based on the lensman series?  I may be glad I missed it,
>but I would like to know what I missed.

There was a HORRIBLE animated film done called 'Lensman' whose only
connection with the EES canon was the character names.  Little things like
Kim getting the Lens off a dying Lensman (!)....

>>I'd sure like to know what Smith had planned for the book after
>>"Children of the Lens".  I can make a few good guesses, based on what
>>Heinlein said about the plot, but that isn't the same.
>
>I assume you read Masters of the Vortex.  It really had nothing to do
>with rest of the series although it was set in the lensman universe.
>I had originally thought that was what the ghost written ones would be
>like.  

In a essay RAH did on EES, the implication made is that the followup to
CotL would have involved group incest between Kit and his sisters to build
the new race to replace the departed Arisians.  The hints given are in the
dance scene between Kit and ?Cat?, where she's thinking what a hunk he is,
the girls' general moaning about lack of suitable males, and Mentor's
comment to one of the girls about there already being the perfect mate for
her.  Given the period the books were written in, this would have been
unpublishable, ESPECIALLY by Campbell, who had printed many of EES's
stories.

>There was another series floating around from Smith also (The Family
>D'Am... (something)).  I read the first one and then stopped.  Any opinons
>on this series?  Some of his other novels, Sub Space Explorers and
>Spacehounds of the IPC were pretty good.  I guess nostalga has set in.  I
>am wondering if there has been some other books written by Smith that I
>missed.  Anybody got a full list?

The D'Alembert books were done by Stephen Goldin (sp?); the first was a
fleshing out of a short story done by EES, and I am unsure if the others
were workings of EES outlines or written whole-cloth by Goldin.

There was a Subspace Encounter followup to Subspace Explorers, and a novel
Masters of Space, that I'm aware of.  This is of course omitting mention of
the Skylark series, which I would HOPE you're aware of.

Bob Halloran
17 Lakeland Dr
Port Monmouth NJ 07758
att!mtune!rkh
rkh@mtune.ATT.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 01:59:54 GMT
From: texbell!mic!d25001@cs.utexas.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

    According to the dusk jackets of the old Fantasy Press hardcover
versions of the Lensman books, Smith did indeed plan to write a book each
about, Worsel, Tregonsee, etc.  Kyle knew Smith; so, his books _may_
contain some ideas from Doc.  You can be sure that the books would be quite
different had Doc actually written them, but they are not as "off the wall"
as some that shall be mentioned later.
    The "Family D'Alembert" series begins with a book that is an expansion
of a novella that appeared in _If_ magazine while Doc was still alive.  The
other books probably have little or nothing by Doc in them -- probably not
even plot outlines, but at least they are consistent with the first book
and with the original novella.
    The "Tedric" series bears hardly any resemblance to the short stories
that Doc wrote featuring a protagonist of that name.  The short stories had
a science fictional rational but read more like heroic fantasy that even
Doc's brand of stf.  The posthumous books are simply space opera with the
most tenuous possible connection to Doc's original stories.  AVOID these
books, or at least don't consider them Doc's work in any part.

Carrington Dixon
{ convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 22:20:45 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: In Search of...

usenet@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) writes:
>Also, I am looking for comments on the Lensman books that were being ghost
>written there for a while.  I believe they had one titled THE DRAGON
>LENSMAN. These were supposed to be about the adventures of the five Second
>Stage Lensman (lenspersons? lensthings?) during the years the Children of
>the Lens were growing up.  Anyone read them?  What did you think?

Not exactly ghost-written, but I get your point.  The author was David
Kyle.  The books were OK (should I say "QX"? ;-) space opera but not up to
"Doc"'s level of competence.  Kyle also did some annoying reinterpretations
of some things in the original series (only one female Lensman; did Kyle
really read the originals?  Computers in his pre-"Children" books are more
advanced than the ones in "Children"!  And a bit of inventiveness wrt.
other galaxies.  Maybe Kyle should have based his series on the *other*
non-Smith Lensman book) and completely botched one (minor, but also
annoying, at least to me) detail of the original (usage of the phrase
"clear ether", which was fairly clear from two examples in particular in
the original series).  (It should by now be obvious that I like the Lensman
series.  Flames to /dev/null, I could care less what anyone else thinks
about my preferences.)

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu
allberyb@skybridge.sdi.cwru.edu
allbery@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 21:46:06 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>_The Dragon Lensman_ wasn't particularly great... It was rather obviously
>an imitation of Doc Smith's style, but it didn't add anything significant.
>Rather, it added some new elements (a conspiricy of sapient machines, for
>example), but those elements didn't seem to go anywhere. On the other
>hand, I never saw any of the sequels (were they even written?) so it might
>have tied up later on.

They were written; I have two of them and have read the third.

   THE DRAGON LENSMAN
   LENSMAN FROM RIGEL
   Z-LENSMAN

That's all Kyle intended to write and as fas I know that's all he did write.

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu
allberyb@skybridge.sdi.cwru.edu
allbery@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 88 06:04:54 GMT
From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle)
Subject: Re: Kiddielit

ABC102@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>My personal belief is that "children's literature," if it cannot be
>appreciated by adults, is garbage, and probably won't appeal to many
>children either.  I also don't think that editors (read "censors") who
>think they have to disembowel stories in order to protect children from
>anything that might make them uncomfortable (or teach them a "bad" word)
>are doing anyone a favor.

One of the things I've done over the last couple of years is to hunt down
books I read and especially loved as a kid (I'm the one who asked about
_Dogsbody_ and _Enchantress_From_The_Stars_ a while back).  Guess what!
Most of them are worth reading again.  Granted, there are a few things like
simpler grammer/vocabulary and more obvious plots that mark these as
"juvenile."  But if a book is truely good, it can be read by child and
adult alike.  I have come across a few books I had forgotten, and while I
smiled at the memory of myself reading them, the books themselves were
awful -- the reason I forgot about them.

Good stuff that I've recovered: Roald Dahl's stuff, Susan Cooper's books,
L.Frank Baum's books (I have the original 1916ish editions, save for the
first book, _The_Wizard_Of_Oz_.  Anyone out there have that book in that
edition that you would be willing to part with for $50 or less?! 8-)),
Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books, L'Engel's books, AA Milne, Felix Salten,
Mary Norton, Johanna Spyri, Robert Stevenson, PL Travers, Wilder, Lewis
Carroll, Marguerite Henry, etc, etc. (I've got to stop, or I will wind up
listing all the books sitting behind me now!!)

"Moral of the story"?  If it bowled you over as a kid, you will probably
still like it now.

And now back to my copy of the Earthsea trilogy....(dismounting carefully
from my soapbox pedestal)

PS: Anyone know if _Dion_of_the_Lost_Land_ is still in print?
    Or who the author is?

Cindy
ARPA:   tittle@ics.uci.edu
BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet
UUCP:   {sdcsvax|ucbvax}!ucivax!tittle

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 03:07:41 GMT
From: texbell!mic!d25001@cs.utexas.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Dian Of the Lost Land

Cindy Tittle <tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu> writes:
>PS: Anyone know if _Dion_of_the_Lost_Land_ is still in print?
>    Or who the author is?

  By chance do you mean _Dian_of_the_Lost_Land_?  That one is a lost race /
white goddess adventure novel of the kind they don't write anymore.  It was
set in the antarctic (or arctic -- I forget which).  I read it a long time
ago and it was not a new work then.  I think that it was written in the
1930's or thereabouts.  If it has been in print any time in the last 20/30
years I would be surprised.  The author was Edison Marshall, who wrote a
lot of adventure/romance type novels, a few of which are, like this one,
borderline stf.

Carrington Dixon
UUCP: { convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 15:11:41 GMT
From: BRANNAMAN@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (A. Bradley Brannaman)
Subject: Zelazny and Amber...

Is there any word, idea or thought as to when R. Zelazny is going to
continue the Amber series? I have been anxiously awaiting more in the
series and don't enjoy being cut off from my fix after 200-odd pages.

Also, what is next on L. Niven's agenda. Is he going to do any more
known-space" novels or will he continue the collaboration stuff with
Pournelle, Barnes, etc. I can't remember what the most recent collaboration
book was titled. It had something to do with Beowulf, though.

When did the new Pern book come out?!? The bookstores here in Columbus must
be slow.

A. Bradley Brannaman

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 20:58:20 GMT
From: johna@hpcvra.hp.com (John Allen)
Subject: Anyone recognize Ragnarok?

I'm trying to locate the author and title of the first sci-fi novel I read.
I'm hoping one of you will recognize the following blurry description and
can come up with title/author:

Written pre-1958 with a title something like "The Survivors", it centers on
a group of space travellers whose spaceship is hijacked by a cruel race of
aliens who maroon the people on a planet called Ragnarok (or something like
that).  The planet has a hostile climate and a variety of animal life.  The
story follows the people through several generations as they first attempt
to survive and later to regenerate modern technology from scratch.  They
eventually succeed in building a short-range transmitter by which to call
the alien race to the planet, extract revenge by killing them and take
their ship to escape to their home planet.  They train various animals to
help them in this effort.

OK....anyone recognize it?

John Allen
johna@hp-pcd@hplabs

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 88 01:53:21 GMT
From: schlatt@herb-ox.berkeley.edu (mark schlatter)
Subject: Identify These Stories

Just wondering if anyone could identify a series of stories I read a long
time ago.

   1) They were published in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine during
      the 70's with the stories fairly long and possibly broken
      up over two issues.
   2) The main character was a (possibly Unitarian) minister who
      did undercover work, getting his orders from a transmitter in
      his toilet.  He had a nickname of "Horny" and possible
      first name was Jake.
   3) Episodes in the stories included one time when the
      minister's fusion-powered Volkswagon was car bombed and another
      when said minister attended a camp for terrorist activity -
      one exercise at the camp involved applying radioactive dye to
      certain parts of cows.  (I'm not kidding!)

Anyway, for understandably obvious reasons, these stories managed to stick
themselves into my brain.  If anyone could mail me any info on them, I'd
much appreciate it.

Mark Schlatter

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 88 19:48:11 GMT
From: tnoibbc!hin@mcvax.cwi.nl (Hin Oey)
Subject: one voter

It is expected that less than 50% will vote.

I can remember reading a sf story about one voter who decides for all. Was
it Asimov??

Regards,

Hin Oey
PO BOX 49
2600 AA  Delft			
The Netherlands                	
+31 15 606435
hin@tnoibbc

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 7 Nov 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 314

Today's Topics:

		Books - Brin & Carroll (3 msgs) & Clarke &
                        Dickson & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Haldeman & 
                        MacDonald & Pringle & Scott & Smith (2 msgs) &
                        Spinrad & Book Request Answered

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 20:59:46 GMT
From: erich@tybalt.caltech.edu (Erich R. Schneider)
Subject: Re: In Search of...

usenet@bsadrc.UUCP (Darrel R. Carver) writes:
>David Brin: Has anyone else been reading much of Brin's stuff?  I didn't
>mind the Startide novels (STARTIDE RISING and THE UPLIFT WAR) but I really
>liked THE POSTMAN, PRACTICE EFFECT, and HEART OF THE COMET. (I will even
>accept co-author status at the moment).

You've pretty much listed all of Brin's work here. His other two books are
_The River of Time_, consisting of his short stories, and _Sundiver_, the
first of the "Five Galaxies" books set several hundred years before the
Uplift War. _Sundiver_ has a much different flavor than its descendants; it
deals much more with the relationship of human to Uplifted alien, much more
with the Uplifted/evolved intelligence question (with a humorous Erich von
Daniken cult) and much more with background (mystified by the "Power
Satellite War" reference in _Uplift_? It's explained here) . I don't know
much about _The River of Time_ except that the story "Thor Vs. Captain
America" is twisted, but amusing. It's apparently an alternate history-WWII
story where a) Norse gods come to Earth and b) we have references to "Sci-fi
writer Nimitz" and "Admiral Heinlein".

Speaking of which, is Brin ever going to write another "Five Galaxies"
story?  How about jumping several hundred years again and using Neodogs?
Hmmm.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 12:43:57 GMT
From: bondc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Clay M Bond)
Subject: Re: Kiddielit

I don't think it is appropriate to place Lewis Carroll's books in the
_Children's Lit_ category.  I certainly don't mean to sound snobby about
the genre at all, but Carroll's genius lies in the linguistic games he
plays on every page, liguistic games of much higher sophistication than
(most) children are capable of fully appreciating.

It's obvious, though, that most Americans think of the Alice books as
_Children's Lit_.  Every semester I tell my students they should (re)read
Carroll's books (particularly since they are in a linguistics class), and
every semester I get a mixed reaction of disbelief and scorn (also, "oh, I
saw the Disney movie" ...)

Clay Bond
IU Department of Linguistics
bondc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 88 19:46:03 GMT
From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle)
Subject: Re: Kiddielit

bondc@iuvax.UUCP (Clay M Bond) writes:
>I don't think it is appropriate to place Lewis Carroll's books in the
>_Children's Lit_ category.  I certainly don't mean to sound snobby about
>the genre at all, but Carroll's genius lies in the linguistic games he
>plays on every page, liguistic games of much higher sophistication than
>(most) children are capable of fully appreciating.

Some of Carroll's books, while stuffed with linguistic games, *still* can
be (and have been) read and enjoyed by children.  To be more accurate,
though, I'll say that his are the few adult books that can also be enjoyed
by children...

Remember, Alice_in_Wonderland grew out of a story he told to (his niece?)
a young girl.

Cindy
ARPA:   tittle@ics.uci.edu
BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet
UUCP:   {sdcsvax|ucbvax}!ucivax!tittle

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 01:32:52 GMT
From: bondc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Clay M Bond)
Subject: Re: Kiddielit

Cindy Tittle writes:
>> . . . linguistic games of much higher sophistication than (most)
>>children are capable of fully appreciating.
>
>Some of Carroll's books, while stuffed with linguistic games, *still* can
>be (and have been) enjoyed by children.

Indeed, but that's not what I said (which is why I requoted myself) ...
enjoyment is not the same thing as full appreciation.

>Remember, Alice_in_Wonderland grew out of a story he told to (his niece?)
>a young girl.

No, certainly not his niece.  Alice Liddell was her name, the daughter of
the dean of Oxford.  Lewis Carroll was a pedophile, and wanted to get into
her pants, actually, and no, that's not hearsay, but well documented from
his diaries.

Clay Bond
IU Department of Linguistics
bondc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 88 23:51:11 GMT
From: rob@baloo.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Realistic Space Combat

milne@ICS.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
> [we're on realistic space combat ]
>Not surprisingly, Arthur C. Clarke used one of the best depictions I've
>yet seen of space battle.  It's in "Earthlight", when the break final
>comes between Earth and the Federation of the outer colonies.  There is no
>hyperdrive whatsoever, no "laser" beams or other "death rays" -- though

There is both of those.  Both sides use beam weapons (of unspecified
nature, but Clarke clearly states that missiles and the like are *way* too
slow to get through the defenses, they're there just to provide extra load
on the tracking systems.  The Federation ships use an ``inertia less
drive'' that gives them the maneuverability they need to compensate for the
Earth base's heavier fire power.

>there is one very inventive weapon that I'm not going to give away.  

Which would definitely count as a beam weapon (though not a ray :-)

>There is instead some pertinent observation, and an exercise in holding
>one's breath.

Not to mention the fun of trying to figure out who is the spy and how s/he
is doing it (this is the spy version of the closed room mystery novel: we
have an information leak out of a completely isolated moonbase).

>If you want to know how all this goes together, read the book.

Seconded.  Not the best novel ever, but quite enjoyable.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Nov 88 16:27 CST
From: Jerry Stearns <CORDWAINER@UMNACVX.BITNET>
Subject: Childe Cycle Books

   Someone on the net asked recently when the next of Gordon Dickson's
Childe Cycle books would come out.  Well, I have an answer.
   Gordy says that _The Chantry Guild_ is out right now, in hardcover.
That's the latest.  He has just finished writing _Wolf and Iron_, a sort of
post-holocaust survival novel, which should be out next October.  After
that he'll be working on _The Dragon Knight_, a sequel to _The Dragon and
the George_.  And finally, he hopes to end next year by writing _Young
Blaze_, another Childe novel.
   I hope that answers the question.

Jerry Stearns
Academic Computing
University of Minnesota
CORDWAINer@UMNACVX.BITNET
CORDWAINer@vx.acss.umn.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 16:28:37 GMT
From: deanh@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Dean Heisey)
Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson, the works of

I just finished reading the first volume of _Mordant's_Need_ and I was
impressed. I was wondering, has he written anything else that is worth
reading? Your suggestions will be appreciated.

Dean Heisey

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 88 18:31:44 GMT
From: dalex@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Dave Alexander)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, the works of

deanh@devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Dean Heisey) writes:
> I just finished reading the first volume of _Mordant's_Need_ and I was
> impressed. I was wondering, has he written anything else that is worth
> reading? Your suggestions will be appreciated.

The Works of Stephen R. Donaldson:

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever (in three volumes):

Lord Foul's Bane
The Illearth War
The Power That Preserves

The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever in three volumes):

The Wounded Land
The One Tree
White Gold Wielder

Daughter of Regals (story collection)

Mordant's Need (in two volumes):

The Mirror of Her Dreams
A Man Rides Through

I think that his work is not always of the same quality, but it is worth
reading at its worst.

Dave Alexander

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 88 19:52:45 GMT
From: alex@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Re: Real Battles in Space

MILLERA@grin1.BITNET writes:
>You might also look at _The_Forever_War_ by Joe Haldeman (I think).  This
>is a fairly old book, and I haven't read it in quite a while, but it seems
>to me that it used almost entirely the physics that we currently know.

It's hardly extraordinarily old, although it was one of Haldeman's first
novels (his second? certainly his first sf). Why would anything published
in living memory have the (lack of) scientific knowledge of the time as an
excuse for obviously unrealistic space battle scenes anyway? Most writers
violating Newton's laws, or special relativity do so with (as it were)
malice aforethought, it would seem.

alex%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk      
alex@cs.glasgow.uucp
...!mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!alex
alex@uk.ac.glasgow.cs

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 19:56:42 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: John D. MacDonald (science fiction)

Two or three months ago, I had a short discussion (by email) with someone
on the subject of John D. MacDonald's science fiction.  I've lost the name
and address of that person, so I hope YOU see this.

The discussion mostly pertained to MacDonald's short science fiction, and I
seemed to recall seeing a paperback collection of some of it, but all I
could come up with was the collection of short mystery stories called
_The_Good_Old- _Stuff_.  Well, I finally dug the book out of my collection,
and here's the details:

John D. MacDonald, the well-known author (you know him, DON'T YOU???) of
the Travis McGee books and many other best-selling books, started out
1940's, churning out stories for the (rapidly disappearing) pulps, stories
of all sorts, they ran the gamut from "...adventure stories, mysteries,
westerns, sports stories, and science fiction and fantasy.  Ina all, he
published more than six hundred stories, the great bulk of them between the
late forties and the midfifties.  His first full-length book,
_The_Brass_Cupcake_, appeared in 1950, and he has since published more than
sixty-five novels and one autobiographical nonfiction book,
_The_House_Guests_ (1965), a very funny and moving account of the
MacDonalds' life with, and relationship to, their pets."

The above is quoted from the introduction to a book called:
   _Other_Times,_Other_Worlds_
   published by Fawcett/Gold Medal
   (c) 1978
   ISBN 0-449-14037-7
I have not yet read the book, but it contains 16 of his short science
fiction stories (copyrights run from 1948 to 1968).

Again, from the introduction: "Indeed, his output has been so prodigious
that an entire journal, _The_John_D._MacDonald_Bibliophile_, edited by Len
and June Moffatt of Downey, California (who prepared the bibliography for
this book), is devoted to his work."  And, again: "John D. MacDonald
published fifty science fiction short stories and novelettes and three
novels..."

The bibliography in the back contains a list of all 53 stories, under what
name (or pen name) they were published, as well as where and when.

I don't know if this book is still in print or not, but, with persistence,
you should be able to find it in a used bookstore somewhere.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 88 10:51:43 GMT
From: jmckerna@polyslo.calpoly.edu (THE VIKING)
Subject: Re: The 5 Parsec Shelf

I'd also recommend another list of best sf books to the net, David
Pringle's _The One Hundred Best SF Books_ [I hope I got that right].
Obviously the title is a little misleading since there can be no definitive
hundred best sf books. Pringle discusses that in his well written
introduction to the book.

Pringle's book directed me to a lot of high quality older, British and new
wave sf books that I hadn't heard of before. One of the things I liked
about his book was that Pringle's commentary gave me some idea about each
book, letting me form my own opinion as to whether I'd enjoy it. Note that
this could cause problems for somebody sensitive to spoilers.

It should be taken for granted that any book of this type is not perfect.
Two books in particular that I remember not liking are _Wanderer_ by Niven
and _Oath of Fealty_ by Niven and Pournelle. Wanderer wasn't all bad, but
these books both read like blockbuster/bestseller mass market books, not
something I usually like, or consider fit for a best of list.

In any case, if your looking for high quality sf books, Pringle's book has
lot of them.

John L. McKernan

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 88 13:21:13 GMT
From: rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Melissa Scott has a new book out ?

A friend told me that she had seen a new Melissa Scott book out, or rather,
a book co-written by Scott.  Why she didn't pick it up is beyond me.  A
more unbelievable aspect of the scenario is that she can't even remember
the title !!? :)--

Can anyone help with the title of this book, or if you'ld rather list
anyhing she's written that isn't on this list.

The Game Beyond (not her best)
The Kindly Ones
The Roads of Heaven (Five-Twelfths of Heave, Silence in Solitude, Empress
   of Earth)

Thanks 

Charles Rezac
913/864-0472
REZAC@UKANVAX
rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 19:55:52 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Re: In Search of ... NeoLensmen

rkh@mtune.ATT.COM (Robert Halloran) writes:
> There was a Subspace Encounter followup to Subspace Explorers, and a
> novel Masters of Space, that I'm aware of.  This is of course omitting
> mention of the Skylark series, which I would HOPE you're aware of.

     Speaking of the Skylark of Space series.  Does anybody have a list of
publishing dates for the four books?  I am asking because I have two
contradictory orderings for the books (one is from the Berkley series the
other is from an older printing, maybe Pyramid?).  Normally, I would just
go by the copywrite dates, but some of the books have only the most recent
copyright date in them.  So, does anyone know what order the books were
actually written in?  Thanks in advance.

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 88 01:09:49 GMT
From: texbell!mic!d25001@cs.utexas.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Skylark series

11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
>     Speaking of the Skylark of Space series.  Does anybody have a list of
>publishing dates for the four books?

   The _original_ publication dates for the "Skylark" series is:

_Skylark_of_Space_    3 part serial _Amazing_Stories_ August 1928
_Skylark_Three_       3 part serial _Amazing_Stories_ August 1930
_Skylark_Of_Valeron_  7 part serial _Astounding_Stories_ August 1934
_Skylark_Duquesne_    5 part serial _If_ June 1965

(The month given is that of the first installment.  Subsequent installments
appeared in the immediately following issues.  All these magazines were
monthly during the time these serials appeared.)

Carrington Dixon
{ convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 05:22:57 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Spinrad (was Re: Ender)

Most of Spinrad's novels are very flawed, not least by his unregenerate
1960's sexism.  However, there are some I'd like to recommend, alongside
Louis Howell's recommendation of RIDING THE TORCH.  The first is THE MIND
GAME, a novelized attack on the methods of Scientology; the second is SONGS
FROM THE STARS, a novelized attack on the false distinction between "white"
and "black" technology favored by such writers as LeGuin (and far better
than his petty attacks on her in IASFM).  For all his flaws, Spinrad has a
flair for character (as shown by my former selection) and for visionary
ideas (as shown by the latter), and I think SF would have been the worse
without his contributions.  

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 88 02:49:11 GMT
From: elm@ernie.berkeley.edu (ethan miller)
Subject: Re: Identify These Stories

schlatt@math.berkeley.edu (mark schlatter) writes:

>Just wondering if anyone could identify a series of stories I read a long
>time ago.
>   1) They were published in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine during
>      the 70's with the stories fairly long and possibly broken
>      up over two issues.
>   2) The main character was a (possibly Unitarian) minister who
>      did undercover work, getting his orders from a transmitter in
>      his toilet.  He had a nickname of "Horny" and possible
>      first name was Jake.
>   3) Episodes in the stories included one time when the
>      minister's fusion-powered Volkswagon was car bombed and another
>      when said minister attended a camp for terrorist activity -
>      one exercise at the camp involved applying radioactive dye to
>      certain parts of cows.  (I'm not kidding!)

The stories were collected into a book called _The Cool War_, by Frederick
Pohl.  I don't know for a fact that this is true, but the book includes a
main character named Horny Hake, and the two episodes you mention are in
the book.  I thought it was a pretty good book, though not of _Gateway_
quality.

Ethan Miller
(415) 643-6228
bandersnatch@ernie.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 10 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 315

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Burroughs (4 msgs) &
                      Clarke & Donaldson (4 msgs) & Lewis &
                      Niven (3 msgs) & Schmidt

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 18:57:26 GMT
From: kvs@a.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kathryn Van Stone)
Subject: Re: one voter

hin@tnoibbc.UUCP (Hin Oey) writes:
> I can remember reading a sf story about one voter who decides for all.
> Was it Asimov??

I do remember this as an Asimov story (an old one).  I think it was in
either the _Earth is Room Enough_ collection, or possilby _Nightfall_ or
_Early Asimov_.

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think it was in _Earth is Room
Enough_, because I remember some discussion about the story, which he
didn't do in that collection.

Kathryn Van Stone
kvs@cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 03:21:49 GMT
From: c60a-3dx@web-3e.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: one voter

hin@tnoibbc.UUCP (Hin Oey) writes:
>I can remember reading a sf story about one voter who decides for all. Was
>it Asimov??

Yes.  The story is called "Franchise" and appears in the collection EARTH
IS ROOM ENOUGH.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 01:35:06 GMT
From: khb%chiba@sun.com (Keith Bierman - Sun Tactical Engineering)
Subject: Re: one voter

It was reprinted in the collection "Nine for Tomorrow", which is often
available in used book stores.

Keith H. Bierman

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 19:22:07 GMT
From: sfisher@abingdon.sgi.com (Scott Fisher)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

I0060303@dbstu1.BITNET writes:
> can anyone give me some basic information about Edgar Rice Burrough's
> Martian and Venusian stories?  I'd be interested in: when written, some
> outline of content, still available in print (preferably English
> editions), well ...  any comments welcome.

The first book in the Mars series, _A Princess of Mars_, dates from before
World War I--the date 1911 sticks in my mind but I wouldn't bet on it.
Many (though probably not all) of its cliche phrases, settings, and
attitudes can be ascribed to the fact that it came *before* an awful lot of
fantasy/SF writing and hadn't yet become cliche.

I read most of the Mars books (after reading LOTR and looking for alternate
alternate worlds) when I was fourteen or so.  They're full of chivalry,
dastardly villains, beautiful princesses (who ever-so-occasionally pick up
a sword themselves), duels to the death with wicked high priests of
cannibal cults, exotic alien creatures, and rollicking adventure that makes
Indiana Jones look like a milquetoast.  As fas as literature goes, they're
like a creampuff: attractive and appealing to the eye but lacking any real
substance on the inside.  But so what!  There's a place for creampuffs too.

I believe they're still available in print; they were printed through the
'70s by Ballantine Books.

After _A Princess of Mars_ comes a pair of books that tell one story in two
volumes, I believe the order is _The Warlord Of Mars_ and _The Gods of
Mars_ but I might have it reversed.  I seem to remember that there are 11
or 12 books altogether; some of them are abysmally bad (that is, lacking in
creative energy and in some cases lacking even in complete sentences).  The
worst was the Skeleton Men of Jupiter which was literally a novelized comic
book.

Did anyone else build a jetan (Martian chess) set?  (One of the still-good
books was _The Chessmen of Mars_, in which an evil warlord traps innocent
travellers and forces them to play a game of jetan where they are the
pieces--and the outcome of each move is decided by duelling.  Great stuff.)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 16:02:07 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

mamino@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Mitchell Amino) writes:
> I haven't read the Venus stories, but I did read all of the Mars
> (Barsoom) stories when I was younger.  The basic plotline to 90% of the
> novels was:
> 
>    Princess gets kidnapped
>    Hero rescues princess
>    Princess & Hero fall in love
>
> My memory may be fading a bit, but in general that is my leftover
> impression...However, I must mention that I *did* enjoy the whole series
> anyway...

   Your memory isn't too bad.  Let me just touch up the first point of your
plotline.

   Most beautiful woman with the exception of those kidnapped in previous
   books gets kidnapped.

This plotline pretty much holds true for the Tarzan books, too.  I hated
the Tarzan books more than the John Carter of Mars books.  Published a
chapter at a time, every chapter ended in a cliff-hanger that would be
resolved in three chapters later.  Very annoying.  I tended to read a book
in one sitting -- and I am a slow reader.

   I'm told that the Outlaw of Torn is ERB's best, but I've never seen it
on the shelf.  Can you still order it from the publisher?

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 23:30:16 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

This is fascinating. Everyone whose response made it to my notes hub said
that most, if not all, of the Burroughs books were a) based on the same
swashbuckling formula, b) predictable, and c) extremely enjoyable.

And I'm not about to disagree with any of the above.

Don Coolidge

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 22:43:16 GMT
From: jagardner@watmath.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

One thing that hasn't yet been noted about John Carter of Mars...he's the
Eternal Champion.  In the very first book, on the very first page (or maybe
the second in the paperback), Carter notes that he can't remember ever
being young, and he has vague memories of fighting in many wars, wielding
guns, swords, etc.  This was obviously an important source of inspiration
to Michael Moorcock -- his first published books were blatant John Carter
rip-offs (or pastiches, or tributes, depending on how charitable you're
feeling), and they are definitely part of the Eternal Champion cycle.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 17:07:17 GMT
From: jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum)
Subject: Re: Realistic Space Combat

As a sort of antidote to the discussion of "realistic" space combat, I
would recommend the Clarke story "Superiority."  There is a great deal of
description of completely UNREALISTIC space combat in this story, but the
point of the story is extremely relevant to current questions of defense
policy.

Jeremy Teitelbaum
Math Dept.
U. of Michigan
Ann Arbor.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 15:52:10 GMT
From: ut6y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, the works of

Before we continue, I would like to ask all 'Netters out there NOT to start
up with the Standard Arguements/Flame Wars over The Chronicles of Thomas
Covenant.  We had enough of that last spring.

Now, about Donaldson,

As has been said, even at his worst, he's worth reading.  I personally was
a great fan of his since "TCoTC", but found Mordant's Need much easier
reading.  Not BETTER reading -- I'm not sure I'm prepared to even begin
trying to compare the two series -- but easier.  Mordant is merely twisted.
Covenant is depressing and twisted.

Hope this helps (tho' I doubt it)

Michael Scott Shappe
208 Dryden Road Apartment 304
Ithaca, NY 14850
607/277-6461
BITNET: UT6Y@CRNLVAX5
InterNet: UT6Y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
UUCP:...!rochester!cornell!vax5!ut6y

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 01:25:28 GMT
From: astroatc!stubbs@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Dennis J. Kosterman)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

deanh@devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Dean Heisey) writes:
>I just finished reading the first volume of _Mordant's_Need_ by Stephen R.
>Donaldson and I was wondering if any of you out there could recommendany
>more of his works that might be worth reading.

   His best-known work is the 6-volume "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant",
about a man who, in our society, is a leper (literally), and who is
magically transported to a "swords-and-sorcery" world wherein he has magic
powers and is depended upon to defeat the evil Lord Foul.  I've never
gotten around to reading any of these books myself, but my brother
absolutely loved them, and devoured all six.  Of course, there are those
who think the Chronicles are utter dreck, but if you've liked other books
by Donaldson, you'll probably like these as well.

Dennis J. Kosterman
stubbs@astroatc.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 01:19:03 GMT
From: lsc%chryse@sun.com (Lisa S Chabot)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, the works of

I know I do this every time this comes up (and please excuse me if I missed
someone else posting these).

Stephen R. Donaldson has also published two mysteries

   The Man Who Killed His Brother
   The Man Who Risked His Partner

You'll find them in the mystery section under the pseudonym "Reed
Stephens".  (As in "Stephen Reed Donaldson").

lsc

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 17:30:21 GMT
From: discg1!iscad02@bpa.bell-atl.com (lisa makosewski)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

I believe I have read most of what Donaldson wrote, although I could be
wrong.  Anyway, here goes:

   The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which consisted of three
      novels (Lord Foul's Bane, The One Tree, and the third title
      which I can't remember).

   The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which also consisted of 
      three books (The last of which was White Gold Wielder).

   The Daughter of Regals and Other Tales ( A collection of Short
      Stories)

   Mordant's Need (The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through, the
      latter of which was only published last year).

I'm sorry I can't remember the names of the other books, but it's been a
while (something like six years) since I've read them.  If you look in a
decent bookstore in the science fiction/fantasy section, they should have
everything there.

Incidentally, I liked The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant much better than
the Second Chronicles.

Lisa C. Makosewski   
Defense Industrial Supply Center
(215) 697-3639
{bpa,osu-cis!dsacg1}!discg1!iscad02

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 09:34:23 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: That Hideous Book?

lsc%chryse (Lisa S Chabot) writes:
>jf2z+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Charles Fiala) writes:
>>And just as good are his "outer space" trilogy, Out of the Silent Planet,
>>Paralandra, and The Hideos Strength, although I'm sure I just misspelled
>>them.
>
>I'd hardly recommend the latter trilogy.  For one, they're full of
>violence and some particularly nasty people.  But even more alarming is
>the overt sexism of _That_Hideous_Strength_: yes, girls, just relax and
>submit to your husband's will, and all will be right with the world.
>Otherwise, cigar-smoking lesbians will torture you, or some such awful rot
>like that.

  Well, sure. 'That Hideous Strength' is sexist. It does have sadistic,
cigar chompin' lesbians in it. It does try to prove that using birth
control is bad for All Of Us, that women shouldn't bother trying to think
because they are mostly idiots anyway, and that it would be a good thing in
general if they weren't so damned liberated and would just be sweet and
feminine.  At least with its parallel character development it has an
opposite to the lesbian sadist which trys to show how qualities of personal
strength *might* be good in a woman as long as she is an 'old maid' type.

  It also is one of the most remarkable literary achievements of the
twentieth century, in my minority view. It is extraordinarily well-written,
and altogether a stand-out in the science fantasy field. And it is C.S.
Lewis's best book.

  And yes, it does have some remarkably nasty people in it, which I count
as one of its strong points.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 17:57:39 GMT
From: fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox)
Subject: Niven books (was Re: The 5 Parsec Shelf)

jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (THE VIKING) writes:
>It should be taken for granted that any book of this type is not perfect.
>Two books in particular that I remember not liking are _Wanderer_ by Niven
>and _Oath of Fealty_ by Niven and Pournelle. Wanderer wasn't all bad, but
>these books both read like blockbuster/bestseller mass market books, not
>something I usually like, or consider fit for a best of list.

I have read or seen all of Niven's books and have never heard of Wanderer.
Are you sure this is a Niven book?  Are you sure Wanderer is the name of
the book?  I'd appreciate it if you would double check.  If Wanderer is a
book by Niven, I want to read it.  As for Oath of Fealty, I thought this
was an excellent book for the two of them, not quite as good a Footfall or
Lucifer's Hammer, but an excellent (and somewhat short) book nonetheless
coming from these two authors.  As for a best of list, Footfall and
Lucifer's Hammer should both appear on this list, as shoud Legacy of Heorot
by Niven, Barnes and Pournelle, and A World Out of Time and Ringworld,
Niven's best solo efforts.
  
Richard Fox
Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence Research
The Ohio State University

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 19:49:39 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Niven books

fox-r@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard K. Fox) writes:
>jmckerna@polyslo.UUCP (THE VIKING) writes:
>>Two books in particular that I remember not liking are _Wanderer_ by
>>Niven and _Oath of Fealty_ by Niven and Pournelle. Wanderer wasn't all
>>bad, but these books both read like blockbuster/bestseller mass market
>>books, not something I usually like, or consider fit for a best of list.
>
> I have read or seen all of Niven's books and have never heard of
> Wanderer.  Are you sure this is a Niven book?  Are you sure Wanderer is
> the name of the book?  I'd appreciate it if you would double check.  ...

Protector is by Niven, Wanderer is by Fritz Leiber ?.  Wanderer is about a
planet sized spaceship (or a space traveling planet) chopping up the Moon
for fuel.

> As for Oath of Fealty, I thought this was an excellent book for the two
> of them, not quite as good a Footfall or Lucifer's Hammer, but an
> excellent (and somewhat short) book nonetheless coming from these two
> authors.

If you can believe that the residents of an arcology would be happy to have
nerve gas in their basement.  If you want an overdose of Pournelle's Social
Darwinism, this is the book for it.  (Gee, your kid is hooked on drugs,
"Think of it as Evolution in action").

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 05:25:18 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Niven books

>> As for Oath of Fealty, I thought this was an excellent book for the two
>> of them, not quite as good a Footfall or Lucifer's Hammer, but an
>> excellent (and somewhat short) book nonetheless coming from these two
>> authors.
>
> If you can believe that the residents of an arcology would be happy to
> have nerve gas in their basement.

Why not? How many people on the planet are happy to have guns in their
homes?  (And the residents of the arcology trust the management's handling
of the nerve gas as much as gun owners trust themselves and their spouses.
And a hell of a lot *more* than they trust saboteurs around X-million
gallons of hydrogen.)

>If you want an overdose of Pournelle's Social Darwinism, this is the book
>for it.  (Gee, your kid is hooked on drugs, "Think of it as Evolution in
>action").

The interpretation of "Think of it as Evolution in action", as I saw it,
was "Your stupidity is your own damn fault." That applies to drug-users of
responsible age, and I agree with it. For children, responsibility remains
with the parents -- but Niven&Pournelle weren't talking about children.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 20:49:30 GMT
From: rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: James Schmidt -- name this book

James Schmidt had a Telzey Amberdon story with a Trigger Argee crossover
(or maybe a Trigger story with Telzry in it).  In any event I can't
remember the title, but I read it when I was 12 so I know its old :-).

Can anyone tell me the name of this book/story.  Also, does anyone have any
information about Schmidt?  A list of his works.  Is he still writing?

I recommend The_Witches_of_Karres. It's a highly entertaining piece of work
whichmakes me beg for a sequel.  It isn't set in the universe of the
Psychology Service like the Telzey stories, Trigger books, and
The_Demon_Breed, but it's still a good read.

Charles Rezac
REZAC@UKANVAX
rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 10 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 316

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - The Hugo Awards (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 20:57:56 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: How honest is the Hugo balloting?

Here's a little cautionary tale for those who think that "Watchman" got the
Hugo it deserved.

There was a concerted effort to nominate a filk song under the "Other
Forms" category this year.  The song that had the greatest support made it
to the list of ten finalists, but not into the final five.  This is not a
bad showing. *However*, the last item on the Hugo ballot in that category
got on with 17 votes.  An enveloped was mailed within the deadline and
received within the period for counting votes, but those nomination ballots
were not counted because of "lack of time."  The envelope had *18*
nominations (all legit) in it.

Comments, anyone?

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 22:19:59 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: How honest is the Hugo balloting?

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Hal Heydt) writes:
>There was a concerted effort to nominate a filk song under the "Other
>Forms" category this year...the last item on the Hugo ballot in that
>category got on with 17 votes.  An enveloped was mailed within the
>deadline and received within the period for counting votes, but those
>nomination ballots were not counted because of "lack of time."  The
>envelope had *18* nominations (all legit) in it.
>
>Comments, anyone?

Yeah, okay.

A few thoughts:

First of all, if I were the ballot committee and I received a single
envelope with eighteen ballots in it, however legit they might appear, I
would *strongly* suspect someone was attempting to stuff the ballot box.

Which is not that far from what actually happened in your account.  The
Hugo balloting is theoretically done without any campaigning.  (I'm not
stupid enough to claim that that's the reality, but it *is* the theory.)  A
bunch of people sitting around agreeing to do their ballots identically is
not far off from box-stuffing.

In addition, the Hugo ballot has a serious weakness in that there's no
check on supporting memberships.  If I were a dishonest sort and willing to
spend some jing, I could easily put anything I wanted on the ballot -- my
entire family (grandparents - four living - parents, uncles, aunts, sister,
brother, wife and chilldren, all eighteen children) could have supporting
memberships fairly cheaply if bought early enough; I could then fill out
their ballots very nicely for them and mail them in separate envelopes.
With a large enough family, I could probably determine the winner of the
fan categories; those don't get very many votes at all.

So, back one level of hypothetical, if I the balloting committee member and
these 18 ballots came in in a single envelope, I'd be very suspicious that
just such a ploy was at hand, from someone too cheap to spend postage on
separate envelopes.

So: maybe some legitimate ballots were discarded unfairly.  But not, I
suggest, entirely unreasonably.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 88 00:35:41 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: How honest is the Hugo balloting?

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Hal Heydt) writes:
>>There was a concerted effort to nominate a filk song under the "Other
>>Forms" category this year...the last item on the Hugo ballot in that
>>category got on with 17 votes.  An enveloped was mailed within the
>>deadline and received within the period for counting votes, but those
>>nomination ballots were not counted because of "lack of time."  The
>>envelope had *18* nominations (all legit) in it.
>
> First of all, if I were the ballot committee and I received a single
> envelope with eighteen ballots in it, however legit they might appear, I
> would *strongly* suspect someone was attempting to stuff the ballot box.

Suspicion is fine--but then do not dismiss it as a time problem after the
fact--complain about ballot box stuffing.  Better yet--check you own
membership list to see how long those memberships have been held.

> Which is not that far from what actually happened in your account.  The
> Hugo balloting is theoretically done without any campaigning.  (I'm not
> stupid enough to claim that that's the reality, but it *is* the theory.)
> A bunch of people sitting around agreeing to do their ballots identically
> is not far off from box-stuffing.

Is it "campaigning" to say--"I saw (heard, read, . . .) this really *good*
song (book, painting, . . .) and I'm going to nominate for the Hugo."  If
so, then we are all probably guilty.  Look how much discussion there was on
the net last spring (and every spring) about the relative merits of various
possible works.

> In addition, the Hugo ballot has a serious weakness in that there's no
> check on supporting memberships.  If I were a dishonest sort and willing
> to spend some jing, I could easily put anything I wanted on the ballot --
> my entire family (grandparents - four living - parents, uncles, aunts,
> sister, brother, wife and chilldren, all eighteen children) could have
> supporting memberships fairly cheaply if bought early enough; I could
> then fill out their ballots very nicely for them and mail them in
> separate envelopes.  With a large enough family, I could probably
> determine the winner of the fan categories; those don't get very many
> votes a-tall.

If one wanted to do that, why balk at using real names?  And if you have
enough money, buy attending memberships.  The balloting all takes place
before the con, anyway.  It also begs the question as to *why* there is no
check against the membership roles.

> So, back one level of hypothetical, if I the balloting committee member
> and these 18 ballots came in in a single envelope, I'd be very suspicious
> that just such a ploy was at hand, from someone too cheap to spend
> postage on separate envelopes.

Or maybe, they all live in close proximity and happen to agree on their
choices.  Are we now to draw the line between agreement and collusion?  If
I send a ballot that is identical to yours, does that constitute a
violation of the voting rules?

> So: maybe some legitimate ballots were discarded unfairly.  But not, I
> suggest, entirely unreasonably.

The discounting may not be unreasonable. (I would argue that it was.)  What
remains is the reason given for not counting them--lack of time.  If those
tabulating the results want to say--"we feel that those ballots were
fraudulent" then let them say *that*, and not make silly excuses.  One
could just as easily charge the committee with a fraudulnet vote count on
the final results.  It was commonly felt that the entire *category* was an
excuse to give a Hugo to "Watchman."  If that is the case--how sure are you
that the final balloting came out that way, or that--just perhaps--the
results were jiggered to come out that way?

While I realize the comparsion may seem absurd--do you trust that the vote
counting done in your community is trust worthy?  If any doubt were cast on
your election officals, how would you feel?  Now--how do you feel about
problems in the Hugo balloting?

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 16:37:44 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: The Principle of Least Malice

The story so far:

Hal Heydt posted a concern about the Hugo balloting committee for Nolacon
disregarding certain ballots.

I suggested that they might, rightly or wrongly, have considered the
ballots in question an attempt at ballot-box stuffing.

And now, in this exciting episode...

whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Hal Heydt) writes:
>Suspicion is fine--but then do not dismiss it as a time problem after the
>fact--complain about ballot box stuffing.  

Possibility one: they realized after it was too late that they'd made a
mistake and were too embarrassed to admit it.

Possibility two: they really *did* run out of time.  In which case, the
situation was their own fault and they should admit it...but again they may
be embarrassed.  They should have set earlier deadlines to ensure they'd be
able to count all the ballots.

Other possibilities occur, also.

My overall point -- which, typically, I neglected to make last time -- is
something I call the "Principle of Least Malice."  It's something akin to
Occam's scalpel: "In explaining human phenomena, do not unnecessarily
multiply the malice of sentient entities."

That is, never assume malice where human stupidity, naivete, greed,
ignorance, pride, or other less-than-malicious explanations will suffice.
In this case, though malice is not ruled out, it is not necessary.

This may seem naively optimistic, but I find it makes the world inside my
own head a much nicer place to live.  It doesn't mean I trust politicians
or strangers any more than you do; it just means I don't automatically
assume they're out to get me.  I've been approached by con-men.  Is there
any malice in a con-man?  No, just greed.  No desire to screw me
personally.

Anyway, back to the hand at issue...

>Is it "campaigning" to saw--"I saw (heard, read, . . .) this really *good*
>song (book, painting, . . .) and I'm going to nominate for the Hugo."

No.  It is if you say "and you should too."  (I'm definitely guilty of
campaigning; I even do it in print.)

>if you have enough money, buy attending memberships.

Why?  It doesn't buy anything more and costs *much* more.

>Or maybe, they all live in close proximity and happen to agree on their
>choices.  Are we now to draw the line between agreement and collusion?  If
>I send a ballot that is identical to yours, does that constitute a
>violation of the voting rules?

No, of course not.  I was not saying the discarding of the ballots was fair
in the first place, but only that it was explicable without malice on the
part of the awards committee.  I wrote:

>> maybe some legitimate ballots were discarded unfairly.  But not, I
>> suggest, entirely unreasonably.

>It was commonly felt that the entire *category* was an excuse to give a
>Hugo to "Watchman."

Or, at least, to give it a category in which it could compete fairly.
After all, calling THE DARK KNIGHT non-fiction was an injustice next to
which a few ballots discarded because of a lazy committee would be as
nothing.  If there was strong evidence of malice on the part of the
committee, that would be different...

>While I realize the comparsion may seem absurd--do you trust that the vote
>counting done in your community is trust worthy?

No.  I don't have any evidence otherwise, so I assume grudgingly that the
count approximates the real vote...but suspect otherwise.  (I've done some
straw polling and the results for my neighborhood did *not* match the
printed results.)

>If any doubt were cast on your election officals, how would you feel?
>Now--how do you feel about problems in the Hugo balloting?

That it's a hell of a lot less important than problems in political
elections.  Which puts this whole thing in perspective, here on election
eve, don't it?

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 19:00:01 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: The Principle of Least Malice

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
> The story so far:
>
> Hal Heydt posted a concern about the Hugo balloting committee for Nolacon
> disregarding certain ballots.
> 
> I suggested that they might, rightly or wrongly, have considered the
> ballots in question an attempt at ballot-box stuffing.
> 
> And now, in this exciting episode...
> 
>whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Hal Heydt) writes:
>>Suspicion is fine--but then do not dismiss it as a time problem after the
>>fact--complain about ballot box stuffing.
>
> Possibility one: they realized after it was too late that they'd made a
> mistake and were too embarrassed to admit it.

Perfectly reasonable--and somewhat forgivable.  However, it does a
disservice to future committees.

> Possibility two: they really *did* run out of time.  In which case, the
> situation was their own fault and they should admit it...but again they
> may be embarrassed.  They should have set earlier deadlines to ensure
> they'd be able to count all the ballots.

How long does it take to count 18 ballots?  Where ther any *other*
uncounted around?

> My overall point -- which, typically, I neglected to make last time -- is
> something I call the "Principle of Least Malice."  It's something akin to
> Occam's scalpel: "In explaining human phenomena, do not unnecessarily
> multiply the malice of sentient entities."
> That is, never assume malice where human stupidity, naivete, greed,
> ignorance, pride, or other less-than-malicious explanations will suffice.
> In this case, though malice is not ruled out, it is not necessary.
  
I do not ascribe to action to one of malice, but to one of negelct.  On the
order of believing that they knew what was going to win anyway and
therefore what the opposition was didn't matter as it was all pro forma
anyway.

>>It was commonly felt that the entire *category* was an excuse to give a
>>Hugo to "Watchman."
>
> Or, at least, to give it a category in which it could compete fairly.
> After all, calling THE DARK KNIGHT non-fiction was an injustice next to
> which a few ballots discarded because of a lazy committee would be as
> nothing.  If there was strong evidence of malice on the part of the
> committee, that would be different...

I don't recall who pointed it out--Chuq, perhaps?--that by word count,
"Watchman" should have competed as a novel.  THere was a lot of discussion
about where such things belonged last spring.  As I recall, the entire
"Other Forms" category seemed to fall apart on close scrutiny.  However,
having set up a catch-all category, I think the committe is under special
obligation to run it with extreme formality and not let things slide.  They
would have done well to encourage as many different "other forms" to get
nominated as possible--even if it hurt their own favorite.

>>While I realize the comparsion may seem absurd--do you trust that the
>>vote counting done in your community is trust worthy?
>
> No.  I don't have any evidence otherwise, so I assume grudgingly that the
> count approximates the real vote...but suspect otherwise.  (I've done
> some straw polling and the results for my neighborhood did *not* match
> the printed results.)

You are less trusting of results than I am.  I hadn't thought of checking
with my neighbors.  But then if my neighbors came asking, I might not tell
them anyway.

I have friends (and relatives) that have been involved with counting on
various levels.  So far as I can tell--in this state at least--it is
carried out with extreme care.

> That it's a hell of a lot less important than problems in political
> elections.  Which puts this whole thing in perspective, here on election
> eve, don't it?

What better time to discuss it?

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 18:55:02 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: How honest is the Hugo balloting?

>In addition, the Hugo ballot has a serious weakness in that there's no
>check on supporting memberships.  If I were a dishonest sort and willing
>...

I directly know of one attempt to stuff the Hugo ballot and indirectly know
of another. In both cases, it was clearly a stuffing attempt and the votes
quietly discarded.

Except for the pro Hugos, the award has no monetary value so stuffing is
rare and is hardly a big deal. Winning a pro Hugo increases the "value" of
the author/artist and can be negotiated into larger advances or
commissions. However, the immediate cost of a stuffing compaign is larger
than the immediate return from winning so the incentive to stuff a pro Hugo
ballot is also low.

Right now Hugo stuffing is not a serious problem. It may be in the future.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 20:33:56 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: The Principle of Least Malice

>Hal Heydt posted a concern about the Hugo balloting committee for Nolacon
>disregarding certain ballots.
> ...
>My overall point  ...
>That is, never assume malice where human stupidity, naivete, greed,
>ignorance, pride, or other less-than-malicious explanations will suffice.
>In this case, though malice is not ruled out, it is not necessary.

Considering how badly they ran the actual con, I strongly believe
stupidity, naivete, ignorance >AND< laziness over malice.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 10 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 317

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Card (13 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 22:15:54 GMT
From: kazim@apple.com (Alex Kazim)
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

Definitely finish _Ender's_Game_ and _Speaker_.  Despite what Spinrad has
to say, it's the best-written SF to come out this decade.  I'm not talking
about SF themes, and technology effects.  I'm talking about WRITING,
something that seems to escape 95% of SF right now.

But there are other good writers.  What separates Card from the rest is
WHAT he has to say.  He manages to interweave his personal wisdom into all
his stories.  Call it Mormonism, whatever.  What's important is that you
think about what he's saying.

The problem now is that you expect great things from him.  Try _Wyrms_.
Another great piece of work, filled with wisdoms about diplomats,
fantasies, and, yes, willpower.  It's not as complete as the other two, but
I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't read it.

I only wish he would write, say, six or seven books a year.

Alex Kazim
Apple Computer

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 16:17:49 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

brantley@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (brantley) writes:
>I also really enjoyed _Ender's Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_, but I
>didn't find out until I was finished reading them both that Card was
>Mormon.  If you are not Mormon, and don't know much about the Mormon
>religion, you will not see those themes at all in Card's work.  Spinrad's
>arguments in his editorial were pretty lame, especially this particular
>one.  Card's Mormon influences are extremely unobtrusive; he's not out to
>convert sf-readers to Mormonism.

One wonders if Card were Jewish or Black whether Spinrad would have found
his religio-cultural influences worthy of criticism.  This simply shows the
bigoted hypocracy practiced by Spinrad and others of his ilk.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 17:45:52 GMT
From: crogers@luke.d.umn.edu (Clyde Rogers)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

kornellm@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Mark Kornell) writes:
>On the subject of Orson Scott Card, has anyone read "Seventh Son"?  While
>not exactly sf, it is very good reading.  Anyone hvae comments on the
>book?

I liked this book.  It still sticks with the wunderkind theme, which I and
others on the net are tired of, but the writing is good and the characters
are believeable.

>Are there going to be sequels?

There is a sequel (available right now in hardback, probably before year's
end in paperback) called _Red Prophet_.  This is a better book, in my
opinion, than _Seventh Son_.  I won't give away anything about the story,
but would recommend it to anybody who liked the first book.  I might even
recommend it to people who didn't really like the first book.

One other comment--both of these books have historically believable
characters from US history.  Although events are different in Card's
alternate America, the actions of the characters seem consistent with their
historical actions.

Cheers,
Clyde Rogers
crogers@gw.d.umn.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 22:19:45 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!odlin@gatech.edu (Iain Odlin)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

brantley@vax1.acs.udel.EDU writes:
>I also really enjoyed _Ender's Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_, but I
>didn't find out until I was finished reading them both that Card was
>Mormon.  If you are not Mormon, and don't know much about the Mormon
>religion, you will not see those themes at all in Card's work.

  I, too, greatly enjoy Card's work.  My first taste was the short story,
"Ender's Game" (which I still prefer to the book he made from it.  Don't
get me wrong: I like the book!)
  I have a question, though.  You hit the nail on the head when you said
non- Mormons would miss the Mormon undertones, so I'd like to know just
what in the book could be considered 'Mormon themes.'
  Thanks.

Iain Odlin
Box 1014,  
Reed College
Portland  OR  97202
odlin@reed
{backbone}!tektronix!reed!odlin

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 01:08:13 GMT
From: jimb@ism780c.isc.com (Jim Brunet)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

dsb@Rational.COM (David S. Bakin) writes:
>_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
>clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
>Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to
>have a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this
>(or care)? 

Yes and yes.  Card, for my tastes, is one of the most over-rated writers
around.  He's a decent storyteller and a passable craftsman (better than
many, I admit), but he builds his stories on premises that are unmitigated
bunkum.  Of course, because the bunkum is in a "soft" science
(developmental psychology), herds of SF readers contentedly and
uncritically munch away, whereas they would scream bloody murder at the
least-stretched physics.

Now all fiction -- realistic mainstream or SF -- modifies the world at
large to serve the greater purposes of fiction.  But where Card really
blows it is in the reality/believability of his juvenile characters, who
have emotional outlooks grossly inconsistent with their ages.  I don't care
how bright a five year old is, they aren't going to have the emotional
insights and understandings of someone much older; they just don't have the
cognitive and developmental history that makes it possible.

Jim Brunet

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 05:17:48 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

brantley@vax1.acs.udel.EDU writes:
>Spinrad's arguments in his editorial were pretty lame, especially this
>particular one.  Card's Mormon influences are extremely unobtrusive; he's
>not out to convert sf-readers to Mormonism.

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>One wonders if Card were Jewish or Black whether Spinrad would have found
>his religio-cultural influences worthy of criticism.  This simply shows
>the bigoted hypocrisy practiced by Spinrad and others of his ilk.

Like many people I know, I have read and enjoyed Spinrad's critical essays,
while of course not agreeing completely with them.  I did not notice that
he ever criticized Card on the grounds of Card's Mormon faith.  I'm fairly
sensitive to religious intolerance issues and have defended Mormons against
bashing by mainstream Christians on computer networks, so I'm pretty sure I
would have noticed any such elements.

Would someone care to enlighten me on what "bigoted hypocracy [sic]" I
missed in "Spinard's [sic]" "editorial [sic]"?  Please be specific, and
thanx [sic] in advance.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 00:03:26 GMT
From: cjh@petsd.ccur.com (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

dsb@Rational.COM (David S. Bakin) writes:
>_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
>clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
>Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to
>have a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this
>(or care)?

The SF genre has, for a long time, had a soft spot in its heart for such
kids.  Maybe the Wise Child is a Jungian archetype... or maybe SF readers
can identify with such characters ... or maybe we just *think* we can.

Regards,
Chris
106 Apple Street
Tinton Falls,N.J. 07724
(201)758-7288
...!rutgers!petsd!cjh            

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 16:48:06 GMT
From: srt@aero.ARPA (Scott R. Turner)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

dsb@Rational.COM (David S. Bakin) writes:
>_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
>clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
>Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to
>have a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this
>(or care)? 

I seem to have some dim memory of OSC being discussed previously.  :-)

At any rate, I think that OSC often writes from the viewpoint or about the
life of a child because of the themes he develops.  For example, a common
development in OSC's work is the discovery of evil (and the difference
between good and evil, and how each can wear a false front).  The most
natural way to develop this theme is from the viewpoint of a child who is
initially naive.

I think only Ender can really be classified as "supergenius".  The other
children characters in OSC's books are smart but not geniuses.  Certainly
the main characters from _Songmaster_ and the _Seventh Son_ books cannot be
considered geniuses.  And again, theme constraints dictate having at least
a smart central character.  Not that it is impossible to write a book with
a unintelligent or even idiotic main character - it just wouldn't add much
to OSC's work (other than demonstrating his skill as a writer).

Finally, I'm sure OSC is aware that he writes a child's viewpoint very
well, and has consciously returned to that theme.  Compare OSC's treatment
of Ender or the main character from _Songmaster_ with David Palmer's inept
treatment of a genius child in _Threshold_ (how this book ever got critical
acclaim is beyond me).  It is clear that OSC understands much better than
Palmer how the thinking of children differs from the thinking of adults.

So while I think there is a recurring motif of smart children in OSC's
books, I think it primarily arises for reasons having to do with the themes
in his books, and not because he has some particular fetish about young
children.  (Though who knows?  Perhaps Card lies awake at night solving
mathematical problems :-)

Scott Turner

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 07:21:05 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Ender

llkl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (L Kleiner) writes:
>If you want to read a (rather nasty) editorial on _Ender's War_, check out
>Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine "About Books".  Within the past
>year Norman Spinrad (a truly pitiful SF writer - has anyone actually been
>able to finish one of his books?) attacked Card's writing style, addressed
>the supposed inadaquacy of his themes, dull plots, and his Mormonistic
>messagesin his books.  By reading these attacks on Card's works, I noticed
>what I liked about Card - his writing, his themes, his plots.  I didn't
>pick up on the Mormonistic undertones.

Some people will go out of their way to blast any work in which they can
detect the slightest trace of religion in.  Some of them will blast a work
on those grounds simply because they've heard that the author is a
religious believer, whether there's any hint of it in the book or not.
Maybe Spinrad is afflicted with that particular brand of bigotry.  I hope
not, but it isn't at all uncommon in SF circles.  (You wouldn't believe the
number of times I've been told that "The Chronicals of Narnia" are just a
bunch of disgusting Christian propaganda.  It must be sad to be so
narrow-minded.  (And the same people will usually in the same breath accuse
Christians of being narrow-minded!))

That said, I've read a couple of Spinrad's books.  I thought they were OK
at the time, but not particularly memorable.

vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 19:21:57 GMT
From: kaydin@jarthur.claremont.edu (Kerim Aydin)
Subject: Re: Ender

GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>I recently finished reading ENDER'S WAR and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson
>Scott Card. These books could very well be the best science fiction I have
>read in over two years. Would anyone like to post their opinions,
>comments, or trivia pertaining to these books?

   ENDER'S GAME (not ENDER'S WAR) IS an extremely good book--it started out
as a short story (I forget which magazine it was published in) and Card
decided to turn in into an out and out novel (well, series of
novels)--though in the process, in dragged out considerably.

   The first book came off as the best.  As somewhat of a game player
myself, I decided that "the game" as everyone called it would be the best
live-action war game ever played--I read it and loved it for that
reason--and of course sympathized with the general who ran the game (you
know, the one who ended up on the football league).  However, after the
Bugger home planet died, the story sort of degenerated.

   A review in IASMF sums up a good number of my feelings (though I DON'T
agree when the writer referred to the Valentine-Ender relationship as an
incestuous sub plot...)

   The last chapter read less like a chapter than an outline of a second
novel that should have been between ENDER and SPEAKER.  The plot jumps and
skips (perhaps taken from Valentine's HISTORY OF THE WAR?) almost like a
religious message..."and after many years the Hive-Queen Spake unto Ender,
and Ender bore her..." B-).

   SPEAKER makes up for this a little bit, but it loses in the final
implausibility...imagine the following.

   The planet of the piggies contains a deadly plague that attacks plant
and animal life equally.  The planet has been quarantined, and now the
plague- bearing people want to be allowed to roam the universe.  What
galaxy wide federation would not see the problem in this and enforce a
quarantine.  Another problem--sending a boy on a spaceship while the rest
of his people age just so he can overcome a disability/loneliness problem?
Come on, people have been dealing with things like this for years.

   Recent rumors have it that Card is coming out with a third.  Anyone have
information/rumors/spoilers about this one?  Let's hope he doesn't use the
popularity of the first to just sell a cranked out sequel...

kaydin@hmcvax.bitnet
kaydin@jarthur.claremont.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 18:53:21 GMT
From: megatest!jao@pyramid.com (John Oswalt)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

dsb@Rational.COM (David S. Bakin) writes:
>_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
>clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
>Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to
>have a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this
>(or care)? 

I agree.  A five year old, saying things like "Men, here's our battle plan:
I want you to ..." to other five year olds, and to have them take it
seriously and follow orders, just is not credible.  Why couldn't Ender have
been a mature 17 years old, which would at least be believable?

John Oswalt
..!sun!megatest!jao

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 20:20:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

>I think the thing which bothers me the most is the persistent
>manipulation, through cruelty, of Ender.  The former is bad enough.  The
>latter is unnecessary in my opinion, although it might be necessary to the
>plot.  I won't know until I finish the book.
>
>Does this get better? ...or am I in for 1.5 more books of continued
>cruelty?  (the rest of Ender's Game and all of Speaker...)??

_Ender's Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are quite different books, to the
point that I have heard strong-voiced preferences for each one over the
other.

I liked both a lot, but I prefer the second one.  From your comments, I'd
judge you're also the sort who'd like the second one better, also.  But
finish the first.  If nothing else, it'll make _Speaker_ much more
meaningful.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 20:40:48 GMT
From: kazim@apple.com (Alex Kazim)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

I used to have a problem with this when I first read the book.  Then one
weekend I visited some friends in Silicon Valley -- an XMAS party with a
lot of very bright kids, ages 5 - 14 or 16.

I was stunned.  These kids have grown up in the heart of the Information
revolution, playing D & D instead of Checkers, navigating thru B-trees
instead of Snakes & Ladders.  I found them not only to be technically
brilliant, but more mature than any other group.  These kids didn't give a
damn about lipstick or MTV.  They talked about Operating Systems, a global
future in space, and, yes, science fiction.

Clearly this is not the norm, and some may argue it's unhealthy for kids
not to act like kids. I'm no expert.

This experience didn't brush my problem with Card aside, but it did move it
from the impossible to the "Okay, I'll give him that one".

As for Spinrad, I liked _Agent of Chaos_.  Fun, but of little personal
value.

Alex Kazim
Apple Computer

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 11 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 318

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - The Dying of Ember (2 msgs)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Nov 88 07:54:46 EST
From: sfl
To: nobody
Subject: The Dying of Ember
Reply-to: sf-lovers-request@Rutgers.Edu

Recently there was a discussion of the Amber stories by Roger Zelazny.
Since then, I received the following paradoy of the Amber stories and have
obtained permission from the author to distribute it.  Enjoy!

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 88 02:14:26 GMT
From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: Amber

			    THE DYING OF EMBER
	   (A Parody of Amber, with Apologies to Roger Zelazny)
			       Kevin Knight
				  c 1988

				     I

   I woke up slowly, the smell of beer meandering through my nasal
passages.  I seemed to me that I had been in this position -- lying flat on
my back -- for quite some time: weeks perhaps.  I opened my eyes slowly.
White tiles of a bathroom wall were all that I saw.
   I knew at that moment: someone was out to get me.
   My skull was pounding as I tried to sit up.  I was only partially
successful in this endeavor, for my head crashed into a steel pipe, and I
was sent flying back into the cold tile floor.
   Whoever it was, they'd have to stop.
   There were beer bottles all around me.  The ceiling was spinning slowly.
At last, I managed to stand.
   "Corbin?"  It was a woman's voice, and it penetrated to the very core of
my brain.  I held onto my temples and stumbled backwards.  "Corbin?"  The
voice grew louder and more painful.  I had to sit down on the tub.  A
strikingly beautiful woman entered the bathroom just then.  She seemed to
be unarmed, wearing only a thin robe.  I continued to hold my head with one
hand, making a "shhh" motion with the index finger of my other hand.  She
nodded, smiling.
   "I tried to move you last night, Corbin, but you seem to be much heavier
than you look.  The bathroom floor must have been uncomfortable."
   Corbin . . . Corbin.  The name sounded familiar.  But was it my name?  I
needed facts!
   "What happened just before I . . . lost consciousness?" I asked.
   "Well, you told everyone to have a good time, and you told me I had
really great--"
   "Wait!  Everyone, you say?"
   "Everyone at the party."
   Now I was getting somewhere!  Yes, there had been a party.  Several
people at the party had been out to get me, but I, being naturally
suspicious, had managed to eliminate them before they had a chance to do me
harm.  But why was I there in the first place?  Why was I naturally
suspicious?  Where did I live?  Who were my parents?  How much money did I
make a year?  Answers, I had none.
   "Let me get some ice for your head," she said.
   "No!"  I grabbed the woman by the collar of her robe.  "Tell me how I
got to the party last night."
   She suddenly looked very afraid.  "Your sister brought you," she said.
   Sister?
   "I know that.  Which one?" I tried.
   "Which what?"
   "Which sister?"
   "You only have one."
   Somehow, I knew she was lying.  I had six sisters, two of which were
dead.
   "You're lying.  I have six sisters, two of which are dead."
   "Yeah, OK.  Anyway, it was Florida.  Can I make you some breakfast?"
   I wasn't getting much out of the woman, and besides, I was hungry.  So I
said, "Sure," and I let her go.
   The woman's name was Jackie, I learned, and she made an excellent
omelette.  While she was doing so, I sneaked a look through her address
book.  There was an entry for Florida, and I memorized the address.  During
breakfast, Jackie said, "You seem to be naturally suspicious.  Why is
that?"
   The first words out of my mouth were, "It runs in the family."  It had a
ring of truth to it.
   After breakfast, I tied Jackie to a chair and took all of the money that
was in her purse.  I should have killed her, I know, but I had grown softer
over the years.
   My first stop was a barber shop on Ninth Street.  Afterwards, I bought a
new shirt and changed, because I hate it when little bits of hair get down
the back of my shirt, although I'm not sure why you would be interested.
   I also bought a gun.
   I didn't know much.  Jackie had called me Corbin, but I was fairly sure
this wasn't my real name.  I must have been using an alias.  But why?  I
looked at my gun.  It felt light in my hand.  I knew quite a bit about it.
I had used one like it before, I knew.  Walking through the park, I broke
it down and reassembled it.  What was my profession?  Military?  Antique
dealer?
   No!  A spy, perhaps?  It was starting to come back to me now.  The name
'Jason' vaulted into my brain.  That was it!  I was Jason Bourne, master
spy, sent to Europe as bait for Carlos the assassin . . . I was shot during
a storm, on a boat off the coast of France.  I was being used by the CIA,
hunted by the KGB and Interpol.  I kidnapped a girl at an economics
conference, fell in love with her, found a Swiss bank account . . .
   Then the thought came to assail me: Maybe not .  It was familiar, almost
too familiar.  I checked my body for scars.  I had none.  I had never had
microfilm sewn into my body.  Someone else had, I felt, but that someone
wasn't me.
   I finally reached the house of my sister.
   Her maid answered the door.
   "Hello," I said, "I'm Florida's long lost brother, and I'd like to see
her."
   After a moment, a tall blonde approached.  I recognized her vaguely.
   "Corbin," she stuttered.  "I'm . . . surprised to see you."
   "And I you."
   "But this is my house.  Why should you be surprised?"
   I was trying to fake it, but it wasn't easy.
   "Mind if I come in?"
   "No, please do."
   I walked in.  The place was well decorated, and I suddenly remembered
that my sister had a flair for such things.  We sat down around a heavy oak
table.
   "Why have you come . . . here?" she asked.
   It seemed that she possessed the same natural suspiciousness which I had
come to notice in myself.
   "I think you know," I said.
   "I don't," she countered.
   "You're lying," I said.
   We sat in silence for a moment.  I needed facts, I wasn't going to get
them like this.
   "I came because . . . I was hungry," I said.  Which was true, actually.
I noticed that, in addition to being naturally suspicious, I seemed to
possess a voracious appetite.
   "Oh!" she said, brightening up.  "I'll have Carmel make us some lunch."
   We sat in mutual suspiciousness until Carmel brought the meal.  There
was bread, fruit, wine, and steaks as thick as I had ever seen.
   Florida suddenly looked at me very seriously and said, "Corbin, are you
really going to try it?"
   I looked at the steaks.  They were pink and juicy.  I was very hungry
indeed.  "Are you kidding?  Of course I'm going to try it," I said.  I
reached out for the steaks with my fork and knife.
   Suddenly she was kissing me.  "Oh, I knew it!  Good luck, Corbin, you're
going to need it.  You'll get all the help I can give you.  Erik is strong,
but maybe you can get at him through Boolean or Crane, and then Jerry would
come over and help once he saw what was happening.  Ember needs you, and
I'll do everything I can . . ."
   "Shut up for a minute, will you?" I told her.  I needed to think.
Ember!  It meant something big.  Yes, that was the key!  There was
something there, something incredibly important!
   After lunch, Florida left on an errand.  I strolled through the house,
looking for clues that would allow me to establish my identity.  I started
in the library.
   Florida books were mostly picture books.  No voracious reader, she.  But
I was more interested in her desk than her books.  There were some papers
and bills and whatnot, but behind the drawer was a secret compartment.  It
was locked and had wires running out to three separate alarm systems, but I
disabled it quickly.  In the compartment was a deck of cards.  I reached in
and withdrew them.
   The cards were cold to my touch.  I took them to the kitchen and put
them in the toaster oven for a while until they reached room temperature.
Then I began to go through them.
   On the first card was a portrait of a tall man dressed in brown.  His
name was Benedictus.  I got the vague impression that he could beat the
shit out of me.  He was my brother.
   From the second card, a man dressed in white armor looked up at me.  He
was my brother Boolean.  I could beat the shit out of this one.
   On the next card was Erik.  He had dark hair and a wet beard.  I thought
very hard, but I could not remember why his beard was wet.  I knew he could
beat the shit out of me, because he had done it once or twice.  I hated
him.
   Then came Blaise, another brother of mine.  Memories flooded into my
head.  Blaise was very much like myself, so I concluded that neither one of
us could beat the shit out of each other, although we might enjoy trying.
   Next I saw Randy, Band, and Crane.  Randy played the drums and was a
card player, I remembered.  Band was into magic, and Crane had ambitions of
his own, albeit long-term ones.  Ambitions?  Toward what end?  I didn't
know.
   Then I saw myself.  I was dressed in black and silver, with a clasp for
my cloak in the shape of a silver rose.  I looked strong, confident.  I
felt then that should be with my brothers, in Ember!
   A heavy-set man was depicted on the next card.  This was Jerry, slow but
strong.  I could spell words that Jerry couldn't, but that didn't change
the fact that he could really beat the shit out of me.
   The next four cards were of my sisters, Florida, Lou Ellen, Didi, and
Felona.  I could beat the shit out of all of them, but I wouldn't, because
that would just be mean.  Besides, Didi, I remembered, was my favorite
sibling.  Felona was some sort of sorceress.  Lou Ellen had green hair that
looked a bit like seaweed.
   I realized that we were all one big family, an important family.  I
needed to get back to the center of things, to Ember.  Ember was where we
lived.
   The phone rang.
   I watched it ring.  Then I picked it up suspiciously.
   "Hello?" I tried.
   "Hello.  Is Florida there?"
   "No," I said.  "May I ask who is calling?"
   "Yes."
   "Who is calling?"
   "It's Randy.  Who's this?"
   "Corbin."
   There was silence.
   Finally, "It's been a long time," he said.
   "Yes," I replied.
   "Well, I was just calling to ask Florida if I could come by tonight with
a few of my friends.  We need a poker table."
   "You got an extra chair for me?" I asked.
   "Sure thing, brother," he said.
   "See you at eight."
   "OK, bye."
   "Bye."
   Was Randy out to get me?  Was he working for *them*?  I didn't think so,
but I felt for my gun just in case.  Then I heard some noise from the front
of the house.  I hastily returned the cards to their secret compartment.  I
greeted Florida at the top of the stairs.  She looked weary.
   "The Road to Ember is . . . unpleasant," she said, avoiding my eyes.
   "Of course it is.  You seem to be missing some cards," I said.
   She looked at me and her face turned red.  "You took them, you thief!"
   "No, sister, I put them back," I told her.
   "Why?"
   "I don't know."  I wished I hadn't.  "In any case, we're having company
tonight."
   "Who?"
   "Randy.  He's bringing some friends over for a poker game."
   "No he isn't."
   "Yes he is."
   "No, he isn't," she said.
   "Yes, he is," I said.
   "Last time he was here, his buddies wrecked the place and left it
smelling like cigar smoke for two months."
   "That's not my problem."
   She sneered and strode away.
   "What's for dinner?" I called out after her.  I heard her lock herself
in her room, and that was the last I heard from her for quite some time.
   I fixed myself dinner as I waited for Randy to arrive.
   The knock eventually came, and I answered it.  A young man, short, with
shifty eyes, stood on the doorstep.  He looked genuinely shocked to see me.
I had to play it cool, had to be very general in my remarks.
   "Nice jacket," I tried.
   "Thanks," he said.
   "Randy," I said, "tell your friends to go home.  We're going to go for a
little ride."
   "Okay, brother.  Beat it, guys.  Where are we going?"
   "Where else?"
   "You want to go back?"
   Maybe, I thought.  
   "Maybe," I said.
   I grabbed some car keys from a hook on the kitchen door.  "Florida?
Mind if I borrow the car?"  There was no answer, so I took that to mean
yes.  We hopped into Florida's Mercedes.  I let Randy drive.  I'd probably
remember how to get to Ember once we got on the highway, but I wasn't sure
whether to turn left or right out of the driveway.
   "Are you with me?" I asked him.
   "I am always able to detect the quarter of the wind.  I'll not sail
against it," he said.
   "What does that mean?" I asked.
   "It is a nautical analogy I learned from Crane.  It means, 'yes', but it
sounds a lot better."
   I looked out the window.  The sky was green and the trees were a pale
shade of blue.  I watched Randy's face.  The more he concentrated, the more
the environment changed.
   We had to stop to fill the car with gas.  When the tank was full, Randy
pulled out a gun and shot the attendant, the manager, and two women at the
Coke machine.  I was puzzled, but said nothing.  It seemed to be rash
behavior under the circumstances, but then again, the years had softened
me.
   "Randy," I said.  "I have a confession to make."
   Suddenly his .44 magnum was in my face.  
   "If you are planning anything funny, I will blow your brains out."
   He was my brother.  It may seem strange to you that we go around
threatening to blow each other's brains out, but that is the way of our
kind.
   "I do not know who I am," I said flatly.
   The car screeched to a halt.
   "What?" he asked.
   "I have lost my memory.  I have been faking it.  I do not know who I
am."
   "You're kidding."
   "It is no joke.  Where do we go from here?"
   "Well, there is a way for you to regain your memory, but it may be
dangerous, especially if you are not who you think you are."
   "I will do it."
   "You must walk the Design."
   The Design!  The word alone struck me with fear to the very essence of
my being.
   "In Ember?" I asked.
   "No, Erik has the Design under guard there.  We must go to Rebme, the
undersea kingdom.  Queen More will likely help you, although she would feed
me to the fishes.  I can accompany you to the shore, but no further."
   "Let us go, then, brother," I said.  Randy started the car.
   "We are travelling through Shade," he said.  "Do you remember what that
is?"
   "No clue," said I.
   "Ember casts an infinity of Shades," he said.
   "That sounds like an axiom," I replied.
   "All roads lead to Ember," he said.
   "Another axiom," I said.
   "A penny saved is a penny earned," he said.
   "I *have* heard that one."
   "We are in the Forest of Garden now, very close to Ember," he said.
   "Who's the guy on the horse?" I asked.
   Outside the window of the Mercedes, a man dressed in white, with long
black hair, rode a mammoth horse, keeping pace with us.
   Randy looked out for a moment and said, "That is Boolean.  You once
shattered his almost legendary self-control."
   "Stop the car," I said.
   We slowed and came to a halt.  Boolean dismounted and we got out.
   "Corbin?" he said.  "Is that you?"
   "Indeed, it is I.  I have returned to, to . . ."
   ". . . to seize the throne of Ember!" finished Randy.
   The throne of Ember?  It sounded like a good plan, and besides, I didn't
have anything better to do.
  "Yeah!" I said.
   Boolean squinted at me.  He did not smile or frown. 
   I struck an aggressive pose. 
   I stuck my tongue out at him.  I poked him on the shoulder.  I teased
him about his long hair.  I called him names.  But he did not move.
   At length, he spoke.
   "Corbin, I see you are bent on testing my almost legendary self-
control.  It is useless."
   "Oh well, it is fun to try," I said.  "Who is in charge around here?"
   "I rule in the Forest of Garden," said Boolean.
   "No, no, I mean in Ember."
    Erik is in command at present."
   "Where's Dad?"
   "Disappeared."
   "Well, you tell Erik that I'm coming to get him, you hear?"
   "I'll do that."  With that, Boolean mounted and rode off.
   Randy said to me, "We had better get to Rebme before he tells Erik that
you're coming to get him.  We will have to walk from here on out."
   "Why?"
   "Gunpowder is inactive in Amber," he said.
   "Oh.  Is there a book where all these axioms are written down?" I asked.
   "It will come back to you," he said.
   We hiked through the woods for a while, then came to a clearing.  I
could see the beach in front of us.  Randy led the way.  Off to the left, I
saw soldiers in red approaching.
   "Eric's men!" yelled Randy.  "Follow me!"
   I followed him to the shore, and down into the water.  We were on some
sort of stairway.  I felt heavy in the water.
   "Br-br-br-ea-ea-th-th-e-e naturally," bubbled Randy.
   I found that I could breathe easily in the water.  It took fifteen
minutes to reach the bottom of the stairs, which I remembered were called
the Fellow-Bionics, for reasons which escaped me.  We were greeted by two
aquatic soldiers and taken to the throne room of Rebme.  Randy bowed.  I
bowed too.
   "You may rise," said the woman on the throne.
   "Queen More," started Randy, "I know you hate me, but I must ask a
favor.  Corbin here has lost his memory, and he needs to walk the Design to
get it back.  What do you say?"
   "How dare you come here!" she boomed.
   Randy looked at me glumly.
   "I said I was sorry," he mumbled.
   More turned her attention to me.  "Corbin, is this really you?"
   "Yes, my lady."
   "My highness."
   "Your what?"
   "My highness, not my lady," she said.
   "What's she talking about?" I asked Randy.
   "Call her her highness, not her lady," he suggested.
   "Who's her lady?"
   "Enough!" cried More.  "Randy, I will consider your request, but do not
think that you have escaped punishment.  Corbin, I will see you in my
chambers."
   I bowed and followed her to her room.
   "Corbin!  At last, we are alone."
   "Have we met?"
   "Oh, yes.  Last time we talked, you said you loved me, that you would
never leave me, and that you wanted me to have your baby."
   "Really?  Wow."
   "Yes, don't you remember?  You were going to depose Erik and make me
Queen of Amber."
   "Are you sure?"
   "Sure I'm sure.  Come sit on the couch, and let me refresh your memory."
   I knew she was lying.  But I went to the couch anyway.  You're probably
interested in the details, with us being submerged in water and all.
Forget it.
   The next morning, I found myself in a large room, looking at a floor
brightly etched and glowing.  It was the Design.  Random and More stood by
my side.  Next to my right foot, there were two words cut roughly into the
stone.  They read, "START HERE".
   "Once you start walking the Design, you cannot turn back," said Randy.
   "Why not?" I asked.
   He shrugged.  "I don't know, maybe you can.  I'm just trying to make it
more scary.  It's supposed to be scary."
   I turned to More.  "What is to become of Randy?"
   She smiled and said, "He is sentenced to remain in Rebme for six months.
During that time, he will look after a member of my Court.  Her name is
Vial.  She is a fish."
   "A fish?" I asked.  "What was Randy's crime, that he now be condemned to
care for an aquatic vertebrate for half a year?"
   "He made an awful mess," said More.
   "Oh no."
   "Oh yes.  He and his stinking poker buddies."
   I shook my head.  Randy looked away.  
   Now I took a long look at the Design.  "One small step for man," I said.
I set my foot upon it and began walking.  There was little resistance at
first, but it grew as I walked further.  Soon, small blue sparks appeared
around my shoes.
   Memories!  Ember!  The Golden City atop the mountain Rivlok . . .
   Memories!  The Forest of Garden, the River Poisen, the histories, the
stories, my life in Ember . . .
   Memories!  I saw myself putting a spike in Randy's sandwich, many years
ago.  Blaise and I had locked him in a closet . . .
   Memories!  I had walked the Design before, long ago.  Dorky had given me
a Deck and instructed me in its use.
   Memories!  I suddenly remembered that Randy and I had had the same
mother, which was not true.
   Memories!  Erik and I had fought, and I had lost.  He put me on Shade
Earth, to die in the plague.  Damn his eyes!  I burned with hatred.  All
those years on Earth, not knowing . . . not knowing . . .
   By the time I reached the center of the Design, I remembered who I was,
and I remembered my purpose.  I also remembered that by virtue of being at
the center of the Design, I could transport myself to any place in the
universe, simply by an act of will.  I saw a fleeting shade but ignored it.
I closed my eyes and willed myself to Ember.

[Moperator's Note:  Part II of The Dying of Ember will be in the next
issue.]

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 11 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 319

Today's Topics:

	       Miscellaneous - The Dying of Ember (Part II)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 2 November 1988 14:13:48 EST
From: Kevin.Knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu
Subject: The Dying of Ember

			    THE DYING OF EMBER
	   (A Parody of Amber, with Apologies to Roger Zelazny)
			       Kevin Knight
				  c 1988

				    II

   I stood in the middle of the library of Ember, a stately room with many
more books than Florida's library had.  I immediately noticed several Decks
in a glass case near the far wall.  I broke the case and took one.  On the
wall above the case hung a longsword.  I drew it out.  It felt light in my
hand.  I swung it about in practice.  Yes, I knew how to use the thing.
   Suddenly I heard a voice behind me.
   "How fare thee, brother?"
   I wheeled about.  It was Erik.  He drew a thin blade from his belt.
   "I have come to . . . to . . ." I started.
   "To seize the throne?" he suggested.
   "Yes, that is my plan."
   "You'll have to kill me first!" he yelled as he lunged at me.
   I parried his lunge, and he parried my parry.  I tried a riposte, but
just then, he came in with a feint in quarte.  After a sixte riposte and a
repositioning, I held the edge.  I lunged.  He backed off, however, and I
failed to make contact.  Erik struck for my arm.  I had to pull back, and I
almost lost balance.  It was too late to pursue the feint-lunge-riposte I
had planned just seconds ago, so I held my ground.
   "You seem to remember many technical terms of fencing," Erik said,
sweating pouring down his face.
   "You have indeed met your match, brother," I answered.
   Our blades clicked again.  I maneuvered him around a table.  
   "Even now I press on," I muttered to Erik.
   He was cornered.  If I could get a small opening--
   There was a pounding at the door!
   "My guards," said Erik, as he parried my assaults.
   I didn't have much time.  They would have crossbows . . . I backed away.
Erik did not pursue me.  I fled through a back entrance.  By the time I
heard the door crash, I was safely away.
   I reached for the Deck at my belt.  I had to flee Ember at once.  But
who could I trust?  I could not go to Rebme, for Erik's guards would be
there.  Boolean hated me.  I hated Crane.  Jerry?  Band?  Blaise?  Yes,
Blaise!  He hated Erik as much as I did: he would get me out of this.  I
pulled out his card.
   "Blaise?" I said.
   A tall man with flaming red hair appeared to me.  His eyes widened.
   "Corbin?  You are alive?"
   "Yes, barely.  Pull me through."
   He did so.  I stood with him on a cliff.
   "Thanks.  I just dueled with Erik in Ember.  He still lives, however."
   "A pity," said Blaise.  "I would very much like to see that one dead."
   He wiped the sweat from his brow and spoke again.  "I have a proposition
for you, brother.  Let us join our armies and bring the battle to Rivlok.
Ember will fall to our combined might!"
   "But I don't have an army," I said, and I felt foolish saying it.
   "No army?"
   "No army."
   Blaise sighed and turned away.
   "But I can get one," I said.
   "Right," he said quietly.
   "I can!"
   "Okay.  You get an army and come back."
   I turned.  You may think that we treat each other cruelly, but I must
tell you one thing: that is the way of our kind.
   I knew that I needed an army in any case, so I left Blaise's camp to
travel through Shade.  I needed a large force, perhaps a whole world at my
feet.  Yes, that was it.  I would seek out a shade in which I was a
Messiah, come to lead its inhabitants to a holy war against Evil.  I set
out at once.
   I shifted shades, changing the environment as I walked, adding features,
subtracting them . . . a green sky . . . a blue sun . . . no, that's ugly,
how about a purple sun . . . no, not quite . . . a red sun, yes . . . trees
grown higher, forming a canopy far above me . . .  no, that red sun clashes
with the green sky, so I change the sky to blue . . . better.  I am there,
at last.
   I saw a city off in the distance.  I began walking for it.
   "Hey, scumbag," someone said.
   I whirled.
   A tall, thin man regarded me.  His hair was spiked in the center of his
head, which was hairless on the sides.  He wore a long glittery earring on
his left ear.  He wore leather armor, but seemed to be carrying no weapons.
   "Why dost thou accost me so?" I asked.
   He only glared at me.
   "Look," I said, "isn't this a land which has been waiting hundreds of
years for a Messiah to deliver them?"
   "No, this is an anarcho-communist punk metropolis.  You want the next
shade over."
   He pointed.
   "Oh, thanks," I said.  I started off in that direction.
   "Hey," he called.  "Are you an Emberite?"
   "No," I yelled back.  Ember's enemies in Shade are legion.  Another
axiom.
   I concentrated on my destination as I walked.  The shades passed me on
my left and right.  I stopped.  There was a group of people in front of me.
They were standing on a streetcorner, eight or nine of them.
   I drew my sword and started to speak, "Greetings.  I--"
   They all pointed to the west and said in unison, "Next shade over!"
   I smiled weakly.
   "Thanks."
   I put my sword back into its scabbard.  I was close.
   At last, I came to a world with deep green forests and wide green
plains.  I stood atop a hill, and all around me were huddled thousands of
pathetic shade beings.  Each one looked up to me eagerly.
   "I am Corbin!" I yelled.
   The multitude burst into applause.  They screamed.  They burned their
homes.  They sacrificed virgins.  I was their god.
   For many months, I trained them for their mission.  They were eager to
leave, to fight the Evil One, but I had to organize them first.  At last, I
had a fighting force I was proud of.  I felt a little bad about duping them
like this, but I remembered the words of my father Obelisk, King of the
Golden City: "Never provide a naive individual with information that would
lead to his competition with you on an equal basis."
   I decided to play a little joke on my brother Blaise.  I took my forces
to his shade and surrounded the valley where his army was camped.  At dawn,
I ordered my men down into the valley.  I also advanced, but kept myself
hidden.
   As we got close, I saw a figure clad in red silk pajamas come out into
the field.  He held a lantern and a sword.  He looked sleepy.
   "Who goes there?" he called.  It was Blaise.
   My captains advanced, and Blaise was quickly surrounded by twenty
soldiers.  He dropped the lantern and took up a fighting stance.  Blaise is
foolish and rash.  The joke could not continue.  I stepped out into the
open.
   "It is I!" I exclaimed.
   "Damn you, Corbin!"
   We embraced and he slapped me on the back.  "You made it," he said.  We
walked to his tent.  There we made plans to attack Ember.  This planning
went on for several days.  We opened an old bottle of wine to celebrate our
upcoming victory.
   "So which of us gets the throne after we win?" Blaise asked.
   "We'll flip for it," I suggested.
   He smiled.  He was thinking the same thing I was, and that was this: if
I actually watched the coin fly through the air and reach its peak,
Blaise's dagger would find its way into my bowels before I would have time
to call heads or tails.  That is the way of our kind.
   "It may not matter, for only one of us may survive," he said somberly.
   "This is true, brother.  But we are both valiant, exuberant, and rash,
and this increases our chances of success greatly."
   "It is true that I am valiant, exuberant, and rash, but I would not
characterize you as such," Blaise said.  "I should rather say that you are
a thoughtful man, but also a revengeful one.  Also, you are undergoing a
character transformation due in large part to the long years you spent on
Shade Earth, years that have softened you somewhat."
   "That is a fair characterization," I said.  I jotted down a few notes
based on Blaise's words, for I was planning to write a book about all this
one day.  But if we didn't make it to the top of the mountain Rivlok, that
book would never be written.
   Finally, the fateful day arrived.  Columns of soldiers stretched back as
far as the eye could see.  Blaise's troops and mine seemed to get along
very well.  I found out later that all of my troops were male and all of
Blaise's female.
   We marched, Blaise and I leading the way through Shade.  I wondered if
Erik could sense our presence yet.
   Apparently, he could.
   Monsoons and lightning storms accosted us at every step.  There were
forces working against us.  We slogged through hellish swamps and crawled
through infested jungles as densely matted as the hair of a mongrel dog.
The Road to Ember was tough indeed, and Erik wasn't making it any easier.
We lost fifty thousand men in a sandstorm, and another fifty thousand died
as they walked off a cliff that wasn't on the map.
   Blaise and I maintained contact via the Deck, coordinating the march and
tallying the deaths.  We had but a quarter of our troops when we crossed
the River Poisen.  There we bivouacked for two days, in preparation for the
final march to Rivlok.  Blaise and I traded deep concerns which we dared
not share with our officers.
   In the night, the river flooded, and most of our camps were destroyed.
I knew the river had never flooded before, so I suspected Erik.  He had to
have some control over the elements -- the lightning storms, hurricanes,
floods.  Where did he obtain this power?
   Blaise and I gathered up the thousand men that remained, and we started
toward the base of Rivlok.  We had come too far to give up now.  We would
make a go of it.  Boolean's patrols began to attack, but we beat them off
with minor losses.  At last, I could see the mountain and the golden-spired
city.  Ember!
   Along the Eastern Face of Rivlok, from the base to the peak, lay the
Escalator of Ember.  Its base was our destination.  From there, we would be
borne magically up into Ember itself.  We had to make it.
   Lightning without rain assaulted the troops.  Hundreds of men were
transformed into to smoking shells of life.  Damn Erik's eyes!  By the time
we reached the Escalator, Blaise and I were accompanied by only twelve of
our fighters.  We made them go first.  Each one in turn stepped onto the
moving stairway, and as they were carried upward, they drew their swords,
for we could see Erik's men coming down toward us.  We would meet halfway
up the mountain.
   I too loosened my blade, which I had named Graceland years before, when
I had forged it out of Shade.  Blaise lifted his own, finely inlaid, sword.
I grasped the hand railing for safety.
   At last, those of us going up the Up Escalator met those coming down the
Down Escalator, and much blood was spilled.  Our vanguard slashed at Erik's
troopers, and Blaise and I finished them off as they came down to us.  In
three hours, we would be at the top.  But things did not go well.  Erik's
men scored several hits, and our fighters were knocked off the Escalator.
Soon, it was down to me and Blaise alone.  But we worked with precision, my
friend!  They fell and fell, and I could see the fear in the eyes of those
who had not yet reached us, for they knew that they too would die.
   I looked down behind me, and I saw the dead bodies being carried away.
At the bottom of Rivlok, the pile of Erik's soldiers was growing larger.
Even as Blaise was beginning to tire, fresh soldiers began appearing on the
Down Escalator.  One of them managed to hit Blaise on the side of the head
before I took him out with a thrown dagger.  But Blaise was reeling
backward now.
   "Hold on to the hand rail!" I yelled, but it was too late.  Blaise fell
backward and over the edge.  I saw his death coming, and I had to stop it.
I hurled my Deck to him, and he grabbed for it.  I don't know what happened
next, because someone brought a sword crashing down on my left shoulder.
   I wheeled and lunged, killing two with a single thrust.  I smashed the
hilt of my sword into the next man's head, and left a dagger in the throat
of the next.  I kicked the next one over the side.  My fist connected with
the face of my next victim, who fell back onto the man behind him.  I
killed them both with a slice of my blade.  I removed my boot and hurled it
at the man behind them.  The boot struck the side of his head, disorienting
him, giving me enough time to deliver a death blow.  The next man I
strangled with the shoelace from my remaining boot, and then another fell
beneath the heavy belt buckle I swung at him.
   They died and died like that, for at least two hours.  I poisoned them,
I hung them, I impaled them with each of the nine ballistic weapons I
carried on my back.  And still them came.  Erik seemed to possess an
unlimited supply of warriors.  But I could see the top!  Just then, I fell
forward.  The Escalator had stopped, and was now reversing itself!  I
scampered upwards, but could make no progress.
   I was now convinced that Erik had powers far beyond the ordinary.  The
Escalator had never reversed direction before.  But there is always a way.
I jumped over the guard railing to the Down Escalator, which was now going
Up.  Erik's soldiers were also going up, but when they saw me jump, they
started walking toward me.
   After a few minutes, the Escalators switched directions again, and I
jumped again.  I would make it to the top no matter how often Erik tried to
stop me.  And make it to the top I did.
   I almost wished I had not.
   At least fifteen thousand of Ember's finest warriors stood to meet me at
the Palace gate.  I steeled my nerve and raised my sword.  This wasn't
going to be easy.
   Let me be brief: I lost.

   I sat in the darkness of my cell.  The smell of dead animals wafted back
and forth over the mildewing pools in which feet soaked.  The place
reminded me of the squalid shade where Erik had left me to die, all those
years ago.  Of course, I had grown to love that place, and so any reminder
of it made me feel at home.
   Why had I come to Ember anyway?  
   All the trip had gotten me was a few bumps on the head and a life
sentence to the deep dark dungeons.  I searched the room for implements of
suicide, but found none.  We Emberites would rather die than accept life in
prison.  This is primarily because we live for a very long, long time.  I
sighed.  I knew I should have stayed home.
   After three days, men came to get me.  I wondered where they would take
me.  To the torture chambers?  To be drawn and quartered?  To have my eyes
burned from my head with HOT COALS?  No, my friend, none of these.  They
dragged me instead to the famous Fashion District of Ember.
   At first I was pleased, but then I grew suspicious.  Why would Erik have
me taken here?  A change of heart, perhaps?  Of had he been deposed already
by a friendly power?
   I showered, and then I was taken to the barber, where I was blindfolded
and strapped into a chair.  While my guardsmen taunted me, the barber went
to work.  After a quarter of an hour, he removed the blindfold.
   "What the hell did you do to my hair?" I yelled.
   The barber grinned, and then I noticed: he wore black and red, which
were Erik's colors.
   Under heavy guard, I was pushed around the District.  We stopped to buy
clothes several times.  Again, I could do nothing.  They purchased for me a
pair of pre-Rennaissance leggings, a Dracula cape, and boots like the ones
my father had worn when he was young.  They forced me to wear the things.
I was at least four hundred years out of fashion.  A voice inside my head
kept reminding me that Erik was behind it all.
   It was not until I saw a sign on the street that I finally understood.
The sign said, "CORONATION WEDNESDAY.  DRESS ACCORDINGLY."
   I was to be present at Erik's coronation, I knew, dressed like a fool.
   This thing came about.
   The Great Hall was filled to capacity.  I was chained to a chair several
hundred feet down the table from Erik.  Boolean was seated on my left.  To
my right was a pretty girl, whom I immediately engaged in conversation.
   "Would you pass the salt?" I tried.
   "Sure," she said.  Then she took a long look at me.  Stifling a giggle,
she said, "Nice, uh, cape."
   I blushed.  
   Boolean said, "Corbin, I think the lady finds you obnoxious and poorly
dressed."
   "Oh yeah?" I snarled, "what's she said to you all evening?"
   "She said that my white reinforced porcelin armor was both stylish and
functional, and that she always found men in uniform very attractive."
   "Oh," I said.  I stirred my peas.
   Music rose up.  It was the same music they always play on those medieval
documentaries on PBS.
   Boolean stood up and boomed, "Long live Erik!"
   "Long live Erik," said everyone but me.  I was tired of this party
already.
   A guard brought something to Boolean.  It was a green cushion that held
up the crown of Ember.  Boolean placed it before me and said, "Take this
crown and give it to Erik."
   "No," I said.  He scowled.
   "I said, take this crown and give it to Erik."
   "No."
   Boolean slapped my face with the back of his hand.
   "OK," I said.  I took the crown and quickly placed it on my own head.
   "I crown myself, King Corbin!"  
   It was at that moment that I realized something very important, a thing
that would haunt me throughout my future travels.  As I stand here on the
edge of the Courts of Chaos, abruptly but temporarily shifting my
point-of-view in order to tell you, the only one present to hear, my story,
I -- well, the thing is this: I suddenly realized that "King Corbin" sounds
like the name of some breakfast cereal, and that for this reason, among
others, I would never wear the crown of Ember.
   Oddly enough, Boolean bowed before me.
   An angry voice came from the other end of the table.  "Stand up, you
legalistic wretch!  He's not the king!  *I'm* the king!  Take that God
damned crown off his head and bring it to me!"  Erik was screaming and his
face was beet red.
   "But," Boolean started, "I mean, I can't really, I mean, if he's wearing
the . . ."
   Erik stormed over to us.  He snatched the headpiece from me and placed
it on his own head.  "I crown myself King Erik of Ember!"
   There were shouts all around.  'King Erik' . . . now, that actually
sounded regal, not like breakfast cereal.  Boolean bowed to Erik.  Erik
called the guards on me.  As they dragged me away, he commanded: "Take
Corbin to the dungeon and have his eyes burned from his head!"
   Eyes burned from my head?
   Eyes burned form my head?
   Oh, man.

   I must have feinted, for I awoke in my cell.  Darkness hung about me,
not the darkness of the dungeon, but the darkness of my two eyeless
sockets.  I realized that my other senses were somehow heightened, however,
for at that moment, I smelled Lord Reign, my old friend, approaching my
cell from down the hallway.  His characteristic footsteps grew louder and
louder.  He spoke.
   "Lord Corbin?"
   "Yes, Reign?"
   "I brought you some pizza."
   "What kind?" asked I.
   "Sausage and bell pepper," respondeth he.
   "I don't like bell peppers."
   "You can pick them off."
   And so I picked them off, tossing them onto the dank floor of the dark
cubicle that was my home.  Rats came intermittently to cart off the
wretched peppers.  Reign came to visit me several times, until I made him
promise never to return, lest he be caught by Erik and tortured.  Thus did
I dispatch Lord Reign of the Bad Pizza Toppings, my last friend in the
world.
   I had nothing to do but wait.
   "Wait," I muttered.
   "Time passes," came an ominous voice, but there was no one there.  I was
hallucinating already.  Three hundred and sixty-five sleepless nights came
and went.
   The guards brought me out for the first anniversary of Erik's
coronation.  A year's beard's growth and a year's foul stench, both swept
away in a day.
   "Wait," I muttered once again.
   "Time passes," came the Voice.
   "Open door," I tried.
   "You can't do that," said the Voice.
   "Why the hell not?"
   "I don't know the word 'hell'," it said.
   I thought for a moment.  Then,
   "Wait," I said.
   "Time passes."
   I was stuck.
   They brought me out after another year, then after another, then
another.  Four anniversaries came and went, and this was my only way of
keeping track of the time.
   "Get key," I tried.
   "I don't see it here," said the Voice.
   "Inspect room."
   "You are in a dank, dark cell in the dugeons of Ember.  On the wall
you see--"
   "I'm blind," I suggested.
   "Oh, well, we can fix that," said the Voice.  This time it came from
right behind me.
   I wheeled around.  I heard the snap of a finger, and suddenly my sight
returned.  In front of me stood Dorky, Master of the Line, Delineator of
the Deck, Keeper of the Kingdom, Guru of Garneth, Swami of Shade.
   "How the hell did I get here?" he asked.
   "I don't know the word 'hell'," I tried.
   "Very funny.  Got a smoke?"
   "Are you kidding?"
   "Well, been nice knowing you.  Gotta go," he said.
   "Wait!" I cried.  "Take me with you!"
   "OK," he said simply.  "Come on."
   I followed him through the cell wall, out into the open air.  We stood
on a wooden pier.  Rivlok rose up miles behind me.  I had escaped!  Dorky
stepped into a boat and beckoned me to follow.
   "I'm headed for the Isles of the Sun.  I hear they got cheap VCR's
there.  You wanna come?"
   "No, thanks.  But would you mind dropping me off at the Lighthouse of
Carba?"
   "No problem."
   Dorky revved up the engine.
   "I thought gunpowder didn't work in Ember!" I shouted to him, over the
din of the outboard.
   He shouted back, "This is a special kind of gunpowder!  It's a Plot
Device!  You can get it in the Shade known as Revlon!"
   The rest of our journey was uneventful.  Dorky left me on the rocks of
Carba.  From there, I could walk to any Shade I so desired.
   I would have my revenge on Erik, and that revenge would start in Revlon,
where I would gather enough of this Plot Device to make me King of Ember.
I felt strong again.  I summoned a yellow bird of my desire, and it sat
upon my head.  I wrote out a note and attached it to the bird's leg.  The
note read, "Erik -- Fuck You Asshole.  Signed, Lord Corbin the Terminator".
The bird flapped its way to Rivlok.
   I began to shift Shade.

[Moderator's Note: Part III of The Dying of Ember will be in the next
issue.]

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 11 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 320

Today's Topics:

	       Miscellaneous - The Dying of Ember (Part III)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 88 06:30:18 GMT
From: knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Kevin Knight)
Subject: Amber

			    THE DYING OF EMBER
	   (A Parody of Amber, with Apologies to Roger Zelazny)
			       Kevin Knight
				  c 1988

				    III

   My destination: Ember.  My goal: the crown and the throne.  My mode of
transportation: walking in Shade.  My name: Lord Corbin.
   First stop, Revlon.
   Ah, fair Revlon.  A Shade world I once knew so well.  I had ruled there
for many years in the Old Times.  Revlon was my home away from Ember, and
through my presence there, I had built it into a mighty power.  Rolling
hills, deep forests, men of honor, fair maidens . . .
   Fair maidens with heavy makeup.  Strange as it may sound, the makeup of
Revlon would enable me to launch a massive attack on Ember and win back
what was rightfully mine.  Years before, you see, I had brought a case of
Revlon rouge to Ember, as a gift for my sister Didi.  She didn't like the
stuff, and in my anger I threw it into the fireplace.  It exploded, very
prettily and very noisily.  My first thought was: I was lucky that Didi had
spurned the gift, for she sometimes smokes.  My second thought was: wait a
minute, nothing explodes in Ember!  And so I formulated a plan to build
weapons based on this chemical, weapons which would one day make me the
most powerful man in Ember.
   Unfortunately, this plan had slipped my mind last time around.  Blaise
fell off a cliff and I got four years in the slammer because of it.  Not
this time, brother.
   I shifted Shade for Revlon.

   I came upon seven men, six dead and one slouched against a thick oak.  I
hated to see so many dead men, so using my power as Prince of the Blood, I
walked to a nearby Shade where there were also seven men, but only one was
dead.  The other six stood laughing.  They noticed me as I approached.
   "Wot's this then?" said one.
   Their shirts were thin and ragged, probably from the battle that had
resulted in the death of the one who lay plastered on the ground.
   "Warriors," I said.  "Does any of your number know the way to Revlon?"
   They looked at each other quizzically.
   "For whom do you fight?" I asked.
   "?" they tried.
   "Who . . . is . . . your . . . leader?"
   "Tha' would be me, bloke," said one of the tall ones.  "You innerested
in joinin' us?  Headin' for Revlon, we are."
   "Fine, fine!" I said.
   "What instrument do you play?" he asked.
   "I play some guitar, but why do you ask?"
   "We're a Heavy Metal Band, boy!  And Lord knows we need another 
guitarist!"
   "We only got three," piped one of the short ones.
   "You're in!" said the leader, and he slapped me on the back.  I wasn't
really interested in hanging around with a burned out metal band, but I had
to admit I was out of practice, and a few jam sessions would be just the
thing to get me back into top form.  I would travel with these men to
Revlon.
   "I've been in the slammer," I explained.
   They murmured to each other in their heavy foreign accents.  I could
only pick out the words "pigs" and "drugs".
   I slept, and in the morning I found that my sword Graceland had
transmuted itself into a silver Stratocaster.  I picked it up and played a
C chord.  Then a G.  The guitar was in tune.  I cradled the neck and pulled
up on the distortion bar.  Yes, I knew how to use the thing.
   Outside, the men in the band were tuning their instruments.  The two
drummers were dueling.  The bassist/vocalist was running through some
scales.  I stepped out and roared into a Stones riff.  The other guitarists
were taken aback.  They jumped in with some rhythm, and one of them
contested me for the lead.  I was able to squeeze in more notes per second,
however, and he quickly conceded.  I switched to some of the heavier stuff.
After an hour, two of the guitarists put down their weapons and had a
smoke.  The other one played with me for another hour, but he too grew
tired.  I was just starting to feel back in shape, though, and I wanted to
push myself.  I played a few songs with the drummers, then engaged the
bassist/vocalist in an extended version of Stairway to Heaven.  That night,
I ate a huge meal and slept for ten hours.
   I repeated the same routine for the next few days, as we drew closer to
Revlon.
   On the fourth night I met Lauren.  I would like to tell you that we met
an a patio overlooking a lake, with the full moon highlighting her hair and
her silvery dress.  But that would be crap.  I had seen her several times
before, first with the bassist/vocalist, then with one of the guitarists,
and later with the two drummers.  The first time I ever spoke with her,
though, was after a gig.  She came by my dressing room and asked me if I
wanted to do it.  I said, yeah, sure.  She said she loved me.  I said,
crap.  But she started hanging around me anyway.  We spent several nights
together, and she told me many things.
   "I've seen you play.  You're good," she said.
   "I've seen better," I replied.
   "The guys in the band respect you.  They also fear you."
   "Why?  Because I can squeeze a few more notes out of my Strat?"
   "They think there is something supernatural involved.  They're Devil
Worshippers, you know."
   I had not known this, but as I reflected upon the human skeletons, the
pyrotechnics, and the hell-inspired lyrics that made up our show, pieces of
the puzzle began to fall together.  Perhaps it was no accident that I, a
man who had been called a demon more than once, should fall in with such a
crowd.  I laughed aloud to hide my thoughts.
   "I'm no demon," I said. " I'm just the second best guitarist around,
that's all."
   "Who's the best?
   "Benedictus of Ember, if he is still alive," I replied.  Benedictus had
once upstaged the Moonpeople of Ghinesh by doing four encores in a single
night.  We are a very musical family.
   "Wanna do it?" she asked.
   "Yeah, sure," I replied.
   "I love you."
   "Crap."
   There was something sad about Lauren, though I enjoyed my time with her,
and vice-versa.  One night she told me that she was going to die.  I asked
her why.  She said that soon the band would break up, and without us, she
was nothing.  I was silent, for I knew that the band would indeed break up.
I would be the first to leave once we reached Revlon.  I had no choice.  My
destiny was to become King of Ember, not Bandleader of Devil-people.
   With a few gigs under my belt, I felt better than ever.  I no longer
felt the physical and psychological strains of my four years in the Big
House.
   Lauren lay next to me, sleeping.  Suddenly, her eyes grew wide.
   "You are in trouble," she said flatly.
   Before I could formulate an answer, the door to my hotel room flew open.
On the threshold stood an inhuman beast, six feet tall, gray and unclothed.
It wore a fake arrow through its head, in a low grade imitation of the
Comedians of Ember.  In its right hand was a long silver blade that I liked
not at all.
   "My name is Strygalldwinnirdrillbinir.  Conjure with it, and I shall eat
your spleen."
   "Conjure with it?  I can't even say it," I lied. 
   "Who are you?" it demanded. 
   "Misli, gammi gra'dil, Strygalldwinnnirdrinbillir," I said. 
   "No, it's 'Strygalldwinnirdrillbinir'," it said.
   "Sorry.  Misli, gammi gra'dil, Strygalldwinnirdribblnir." 
   "No, not '--dribblnir'.  It's '--drillbinir'."  
   I never was very good at foreign names.  One more try:
   "Misli, gammi gra'dil, Strygalldwinnirdrillbinir."  
   "You seek to drive me away with such a simple spell?  I am not one of
the wimpier ones.  I must ask you again, who are you?"
   "This isn't fair.  My name is much easier to pronounce."
   "Three times I must ask you--"
   Those were its last words, for just then, a man slid up behind the beast
and put a dagger through its throat.  The thing died silently.  The man
entered the room.
   "Lose the bitch," he said.  Lauren pulled the sheet around herself and
left quickly.
   "My thanks, sir," I said.  "What is your name?"  
   He hesitated.  
   "Look, I won't conjure with it, I promise," I promised.
   "The name is Galenon, and if I may offer you some paternal advice, I
would transmute that guitar back into a sword.  The times they are
a-changin'."
   I chuckled and snorted and did this thing, and we stayed up most of the
night talked of our respective travels.  Galenon was also on the road to
Revlon, as it turned out, and I decided to split the band and join him.  I
packed my things and left in the night.
   I was forthright with Galenon, for I trusted him.  I told him of Ember
and of my plans to take the throne.  He had heard of Ember and asked to be
my lieutenant in the upcoming battle.  I accepted his offer.
   We reached Revlon at last.  I wondered if its inhabitants would still
remember me, their ruler of five hundred years past.  At the border, a
guard stopped us.
   "You look familiar," he told me.  "You look just like that guy on the
old coins."
   "George Washington?" I tried.
   "No, no, that other guy."
   "Lincoln?"
   "No."
   "Kennedy?  He's on the half-dollar," I suggested.
   "Forget it.  You may pass."  
   "Was it Jefferson?  Thomas Jefferson?"
   Galenon nudged me.  "I don't mean to sound like your father," he said,
"but don't you think we ought to be getting the explosive rouge?"
   "Right," I said.
   We made it to the city, where we were approached by the local cops.
They insisted that we see a man known as the Defender, in City Hall.  We
travelled to this place.  Inside, I was surprised to see that the man
behind the desk was my own brother, Benedictus of Ember.  My eyes widened,
and so did his.
   "Brother!" said he.
   "Brother!" replied I.
   "How fare thee?" he asked.
   I dared not tell him of my plans.
   "Fine, and you?" I said.
   "I am tired, and as you can see, I have no arms."
   This was true, he had no arms.
   "This is true, you have no arms.  How did this thing come about?"
   "It is a long story.  But at last I have re-united Revlon and driven the
demon creatures out."
   "Demon creatures?  DEMONS OF EMBER?"
   "No, demons of Revlon.  A particularly nasty race of beings known as
Housemaids.  Cold, icy, stubborn beasts, they refuse to do windows, and
worse, they always put stuff back in the wrong drawers.  Their attacks
began three years ago.  As you can imagine, they caused great confusion in
the land.  In an effort to resolve the conflict, I met with their leader, a
woman called Linda.  Unfortunately, I was forced to kill her after she
lopped off my arms.  Much later, I made love to her and then began
counterattacking her troops.  Only in the past month have we driven them
from the city.  I will continue the patrols for the next two hundred years,
however, for we may have missed one or two of them."
   "Prudent," said I.
   "But enough about me.  I hear you escaped Erik's dungeons.  I would like
to know more about this."
   "Tunnels," I said.
   He raised his eyebrows.  He knew I was lying, but he dared not accuse
me.  Had he accused me, though, I would have been forced to challenge him
to a duel of the blades, and this was a thing I did not want to do.
   For even without arms, he could still outfence any of us.  I feared him,
properly.
   "You are free to stay in my house, Corbin, of course.  But if you are
planning to use Revlon as a staging area for an attack on Ember, then you
have come at the wrong time.  I will not permit such a thing."
   "No problem," I said.  "I appreciate your hospitality, Benedictus.  Live
long and prosper."  I wanted to ask him more about Revlon, and about the
Housemaids and their leader Linda, whom he slew and later loved.  But there
was no time.
   I sent Galenon to search for the explosive rouge.  For my own part, I
began to mentally organize the weaponry and personnel I would require.  As
I walked through the forest, I decided where and how I would gather the
necessary materiel for my war against Erik.
   Suddenly, a woman appeared.  She was thin and freckled, and she held a
thin and freckled blade in her right hand.
   "Wanna do it?" she asked.
   Not again, I thought.
   "Let's fence first," I said.  Her blade rose.
   She was good.  Very good.  I came on strong and aggressive at first, but
she deflected my advances with ease.  I decided to be more formal.  We went
through a series of standard exercises, after which I felt I knew her
style.  I closed with her.  Our blades met at eye level, our faces nearly
touching.  I grazed her cheek with my sword.  She pulled away, but I
advanced.  I forced her back into a thicket.  She gasped.  I lunged.  She
did not parry.  I lunged again.  Again.  Again.  She screamed, and so did
I.  We both fell to the ground.
   "So you wanna do it?" she asked again.
   "Give me a little break here."
   She gave me a break, and then we did it.  I asked her name.  It was
Darla.  I told her everything about Ember.  Why?  I do not know, for I am
not a trusting person by nature.  What was the reason for my loose tongue
of late?  Perhaps it was that annoying character change of mine . . .
   "Will you take me to Ember?" she asked.
   "No."
   "Please, please, please?" she pleaded.
   "I don't think you understand the danger involved.  Awaiting my coming
are the DEMONS OF EMBER."
   "What DEMONS OF EMBER?" she asked, but I did not answer.  I did not know
myself.  I bade her farewell, and promised to look her up.
   I found Galenon in a department store, haggling with the woman behind
the perfume counter.  He held a knife to her throat.
   "Hello, sonny," he said to me.  "The bitch says she doesn't know
anything about any exploding makeup.  Should I kill her?"
   I saw the fear in the woman's eyes, and I called my partner off.
   "It doesn't explode *here*, Galenon, it explodes in Ember.  Look, I see
some of it over there."
   We bought two hundred and twelve compacts of the stuff.
   Galenon and I departed into Shade that day.  I found a Shade close to
the Earth I had inhabited for so many years, but one which was subtly
different from my old home.  To wit, the ground was littered with automatic
weapons.  We collected these weapons and took them to a more familiar
Shade, the place where I had collected my army so many years before.  You
might think that the inhabitants would be angry with me, for I *had* taken
their youth from them and caused them to die uselessly in a foreign war.
But these people revered me as a god, and thousands of them would volunteer
again.  I had only to ask.
   Galenon and I arrived.  A multitude waited below us.  An old man with a
crown came to greet us.
   "I have returned!" I boomed.
   The man look displeased.  His eyes went back to the multitude.
   "Don't take it wrong," quoth he, "but, uh, you *did* take our youth from
us and cause them to die uselessly in a foreign war.  What do you, uh, want
this time?"
   "Soldiers!" I boomed again.
   "Soldiers," muttered the man.  "Are we going to, uh, win this time?"  ]
"Of course!  But it won't be easy, for awaiting my coming are the DEMONS OF
EMBER!"
   "DEMONS OF EMBER?"
   "Indeed!  But I have brought new weapons!"  I took an automatic rifle
laced the crowd with bullets.  Many fell, my friend, but the rest cheered
and cheered.  Their god was back.
   Recruitment went smoothly.  I only needed twenty men this time.  I
picked the best and trained them well.  Before we left, I inspected the
troops.
   "Who is Erik?" I asked one of the men.
   "Beats me," he replied.
   I ran him through with my sword.  There was much blood.
   "Who is Erik?" I asked the next one, who began to sweat.
   "Erik is the Lord of . . . Lord of . . ."
   "Yes?  Yes?" I provoked.
   "Lord of . . . Ember?" he tried.
   "NO!  NO!  LORD OF EVIL!  LORD OF EVIL!"  I ran him through.  "Who is
Erik?" I screamed.
   "THE LORD OF EVIL!" they all exclaimed, elated that I hadn't run them
through.
   Galenon and I made some final arrangements, and then we set off for
Ember.  By now, I had mastered the Axioms of Ember.  I knew that All Roads
Lead to Ember, for instance, so I picked a road and followed it, and my men
followed me.  Erik did not notice us this time.  I figured this was due to
the small size of our force.
   "Corbin?" Galenon said.
   "Yes?" I answered.
   "Often you have mentioned the DEMONS OF EMBER which await your coming,
but I myself know nothing of such beings.  How do you *know* they await
us?"
   "It's on the cover of the paperback," I replied.
   "What paperback?"
   "THE GUNS OF REVLON.  The one with the goofy picture on the front."
   "But book covers are notoriously unrelated to the the text that lay
between the pages.  I would wager that there *are* no DEMONS OF EMBER," he
wagered.
   "Hmm, you may have a point.  But if you are right, then it is quite
possible that THE GUNS OF REVLON is neither a HUGO nor a NEBULA AWARD
WINNER.  Good God, Galenon!  I might not be a ROGER ZELAZNY hero -- I might
be living in a MICHAEL MOORCOCK book!"
   "Get hold of yourself, son!" said Galenon.  "Maybe there *are* DEMONS OF
EMBER after all.  And maybe, just maybe, there is also A MYSTERIOUS FEMALE
IN THE PERFECT KINGDOM who PORTENDS TREASON, TREACHERY -- AND OBLIVION!"
   "What does that mean, 'TREASON, TREACHERY -- AND OBLIVION'?  Never mind.
I agree with you.  I feel we must trust The Man Who Writes Book Cover
Blurbs, for even though he probably hasn't read this book, his is the only
information we have to go on.  I only hope that bullets will be enough to
stop the DEMONS OF EMBER.  Come, let us hie."
   And hie we did, until Ember was within sight.
   "Ember is within sight," I announced.
   "I know, I can see it," said Galenon.
   "You act as though you have been here before," I accused.
   "So do you, kid," he replied.
   "I *have* been here.  You've never been here.  Got that?  And why do you
keep calling me 'kid' and 'sonny'?  I'm starting to get perturbed with
you."
   "Sorry," he said.  Then, "Look!"
   I looked.  There was a battle already in progress.  Erik's men were
fighting hand to hand with a large force of Shade creatures.  The creatures
were pouring in across a huge expanse of darkness, some kind of black road
that led from deep inside Shade right up to the foot of Rivlok.  I had
planned to take Ember by killing Erik, but now . . .
   In one of those split-second decisions you usually wind up regretting, I
ordered my men to attack the Shade beasts rather than Erik's men.
Confused, they carried out their orders.  O, how they died that day!  The
creatures burned and died and heaved, and I chuckled.  I diverted my
attention from the battle in order to find my brother Erik.  At last, I
spotted him on the far mountainside.  I left Galenon in charge of the
battle.
   After negotiating the crags and crevices, I reached Erik.  He was lying
on his back, bleeding.  Around his neck was the Jewel of the Judge, a
magical pendant often worn by our father.
   "I . . . am . . . dying," he announced.
   "Oh yeah?" I stuttered.  "That's, uh, too bad, Erik.  Listen, about your
Death Curse, I mean, you're not going to, I mean, well . . . you don't even
*have* to have a Death Curse.  Not if you don't want to.  It's not like a
law or anything.  Even if it was, what could they do to you?  I mean,
you're dead, and if you didn't use your Death Curse, too bad--"
   "Enough!" he sputtered, spitting blood all over me.
   "Jesus Christ, that's disgusting," I observed.
   "I reserve my Death Curse for the creatures from the Black Freeway.  And
I give you this Jewel.  With it, you can control the weather.  You must
attune yourself to it by wearing it and walking the Design.  You're in
command now."  He coughed up a lung.  "You'll find that things are not what
you expected.  Ember is in deep trouble.  Deep . . ."  He gasped for air.
   "Can I get you some water or something?" I asked.
   He mumbled his Death Curse, a horrible thing to hear.  It had an
immediate effect on the battle.  The creatures began retreating.  Erik
heaved his last breath then.
   I took the Jewel from about his neck.  It pulsed curiously in my hands.
He had said to take it to the Design.  I signalled Galenon to pursue the
creatures.  I headed for the castle myself.  Just inside, I ran into Randy.
   "Corbin!" he said.  "Downstairs!  Something's happening!"
   We both ran down to the Design room.  Someone was walking the Design
already!  Who was it?  I squinted, but could not make out the face.
   "Some chick," said Randy.  "Never seen her."
   I looked again.  It was Darla.
   "What do you think it means?" Randy asked.
   "It portends TREASON, TREACHERY -- AND OBLIVION!" I said.
   "What does that mean, 'TREASON, TREACHERY -- AND OBLIVION!'?"
   "Shut up for a second."  I turned to the girl and yelled, "Darla!  What
the hell are you doing?"
   She looked up at me and continued walking.  She was almost finished.
   Randy said, "So she must be of the Blood of Ember.  I thought there were
only thirteen of us."
   "There must be countless others.  You're not counting Delwyn and Sandy,
for instance.  That makes fifteen right there."
   "Oh yeah.  How come we never talk about them?" he asked.
   "We're supposed to pretend like they don't exist."
   "For how long?" he asked.
   "Until the sixth book or so," I said.  I raised my hand.  "Wait!"
   Darla had reached the center of the Design.  She raised her hands into
the air and said:
   "Ember will be destroyed!"
   Shit, I thought.

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 321

Today's Topics:

	 Books - Brin & Burroughs (2 msgs) & Donaldson (7 msgs) &
                 Book Requests Answered (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 16:17:56 GMT
From: kwatts%tahquitz@sun.com (Kevin L. Watts)
Subject: Uplift

I had thought that I had heard about a fourth book in David Brin's Uplift
series, titled "Earth Clan". Can anyone confirm or deny this?  I am
currently reading "Sundiver" and have already read "Startide Rising" and
"The Uplift War". I like them.

Kev

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 88 14:17:59 GMT
From: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs--Barzoom Comix

quale%si.uninett@NORUNIX.BITNET (Kai Quale) writes:
> I have a very special relationship with the Barsoom books: I learned
> English by reading them (I hope it doesn't show), and they were my first
> acquaintance with F/SF. If you are willing to throw all expectations of
> "literary value" overboard, you will probably enjoy them.  [speculation
> on use of "racial" stereotypes omitted] Read them, by all means. But send
> your brain on vacation first.

Back in the mid 1950's [I'm older than I look on-screen] they were made
into a series of comic books, a la _Tarzan_. They were great sword and
buckler adventures, and the comic book level fitted them perfectly, as it
did _Tarzan_.  I ended up reading the originals when the [ACE?] paperbacks
came out, but they never had the oomph of the comics.

Alexander H. McIntire,Jr.
Graduate School of International Studies
U.of Miami
Box 8123   
Coral Gables, FL 33124
305-284-4414
g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu
uunet!gould}!umbio!amcint

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 04:57:36 GMT
From: win2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Cthulhu)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

kristi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Kristen Corwin) writes:
>The Eternal Champion may well be based on John Carter...> But I and an
>associate of mine have come up with ample speculation to make Milo Morai a
>living breathing and continuing John Carter!!!

According to Mr. Moorcock, his Michael Kane trilogy was derivative of John
Carter, but the Eternal Champion (at least as conceptualized in the novel
of that title) was not.

Moorcock says that, when he was young, he used to thrill to the Burroughs
novels, but has since found Burroughs "unreadable."

win2@sphinx.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 18:27:26 GMT
From: dew@ncsc1.att.com (Dan Woffard x8757)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

iscad02@discg1.UUCP (Lisa Makosewski) writes:
>deanh@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Dean Heisey) writes:
>> I just finished reading the first volume of _Mordant's_Need_ by Stephen
>> R. Donaldson and I was wondering if any of you out there could
>> recommend any more of his works that might be worth reading.
>
> I believe I have read most of what Donaldson wrote, although I could be
> wrong.  Anyway, here goes:
> 
>   The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which consisted of three
>      novels (Lord Foul's Bane, The One Tree, and the third title
>      which I can't remember).
> 
>   The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which also consisted of 
>      three books (The last of which was White Gold Wielder).
> 
>   The Daughter of Regals and Other Tales ( A collection of Short
>      Stories)
> 
>   Mordant's Need (The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through, the
>     latter of which was only published last year).
>
> Incidentally, I liked The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant much better than
> the Second Chronicles.
 
 Sorry Lisa but not even close,
 The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant The Unbeleiver consisted of
 Lord Fouls Bane
 The Illearth War
 The Power That Preserves

 The Second Chronicles 
The Wounded Land
The One Tree
The White Gold Wielder

 I guess I can see why you'd think the first books were better since
Donaldson spent three books creating a truly magical world and then spent
the next two explaining how the entire land was raped and ruined. It wasn't
a pleasant thing to read - almost painful but still very well written
(though I'll agree somewhat predictable).
 It might also intrest some that there is an additional chapter from The
Illearth War period in the short story collection A Daughter of Regals.
It's just enough to make you want to read it again.
  Donaldson's strongest point is his ability to make you care about his
characters and in the case of the Covenant books the Land his weakest point
is his use of 5 syllable words for no other reason than to use a 5 syllable
word. I don't like to have to have a dictionary next to me when I read a
novel.
 This criticism aside Donaldson is still in my top 3 for favorite
contemporary authors I highly recommend his work to anyone who enjoys
Fantasy.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 02:58:39 GMT
From: rti!sas!sasblc@mcnc.mcnc.org (Brad Chisholm)
Subject: A Man Rides Through (REVIEW)

SUMMARY:  Less powerful than the Thomas Covanent series but more   
          enjoyable.

   I know, I know... It's a little late for a review, but this book just
recently came out in paperback, and since I'm such a cheapskate, I waited
until now to buy it.

   The first thing that struck me about it was the lack of a synopsis of
the first book (Mirror of Her Dreams).  Instead, it simply begins directly
where it left off, and since neither volume can stand on its own, I had to
go back and re-read the first before starting "A Man Rides Through".  It
may have been more appropriate to publish both books as a single volume,
although such a large book probably wouldn't have made as much $$ as the
two smaller (but still sizeable) books.

   The plot has a similar feel to the Covenant books: a depressed,
disillusioned, modern-day person gets wisked away to another world where
something basically ordinary here makes them the most powerful person in
the other world.  In this case it's the heroine's affinity for mirrors, in
a world where mirrors are used for transportation/trans- lation.

   There's nothing particularly stellar about the plot, but I still found
myself enjoying the book much more than I had anticipated.  The story flows
along very smoothly, and (perhaps I sould be embarrassed to say this) I'm
impressed by Donaldson's writing skill.  True, there are no twists or
surprises, but he uses that predictability well in setting up conflicts
between the non-omniscient characters.  (Rather like horror movies showing
the audience the monster lurking under the stairs as the baby-sitter
descends to retrieve the laundry.)

   I'm not sure I would recommend "Mordant's Need" to everyone.  I don't
think it (they?) would appeal to action/adventure lovers, whether in SF or
fantasy.  Nevertheless, I found them quite enjoyable and engrossing.
There's more than 1200 pages all told (both books SHOULD be read together),
but it doesn't FEEL like 1200 pages.

   I'll give it a +2 on a -4 to +4 (modified Leeper) scale.

Brad L. Chisholm
sasblc@sas.UUCP
<backbone>!mcnc!rti!sas!sasblc

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 02:54:25 GMT
From: jvogel@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jeff Vogel)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

stubbs@astroatc.UUCP (Dennis J. Kosterman) writes:
>deanh@devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Dean Heisey) writes:
>>I just finished reading the first volume of _Mordant's_Need_ by Stephen
>>R. Donaldson and I was wondering if any of you out there could
>>recommend any more of his works that might be worth reading.
>
>     His best-known work is the 6-volume "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant",
>about a man who, in our society, is a leper (literally), and who is
>magically transported to a "swords-and-sorcery" world wherein he has magic
>powers and is depended upon to defeat the evil Lord Foul.  I've never
>gotten around to reading any of these books myself, but my brother
>absolutely loved them, and devoured all six.  Of course, there are those
>who think the Chronicles are utter dreck, but if you've liked other books
>by Donaldson, you'll probably like these as well.

Low point:
Donaldson tends to be very wordy in the CoTC books. The "Oh my God, I'm
horrible." speeches by Covenant get very, very old after a while. My
favorite description of the anti-hero is: Thomas Covenant the Whiner.

High point:
The books are fantastic anyway. The setting is very well developed, the
plots are enthralling, and the action is stunning. Also, as someone else on
the net said, "They were the first books I've read where I really had
doubts about the outcome."

The Tolkienphiles on the net will tell you that the CoTC trilogies are mere
plagiarism. Don't let this discourage you: they're classics.

Jeff Vogel

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 88 05:53:34 GMT
From: Bill_P_Pearce@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

Re Thomas Covenant as The Whiner -- I couldn't agree more.  I enjoyed the
books very much (CoTC), but he is such an unpleasant personality!  Of
course, he is supposed to be, I guess, but it did get tiresome.

As a Tolkien lover, I did not have the impression at all that CoTC was
borrowed from Tolkien, or derivative, and I am surprised to hear that.  Now
it is another story with Brooks' Shannara series (which I also loved, and
also his Magic Kingdom of Landover books), but I didn't mind the borrowing
myself.

Bill Pearce

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 88 23:31:14 GMT
From: djk@vail.cs.columbia.edu (David Kurlander)
Subject: Re: A Man Rides Through (REVIEW)

Since I liked the Covenant books (way back in Jr. High, anyway), I decided
to give Mordant's Need a try.  The books were overly long, dull, and
predictable.  Repetitive too.  If you go ahead and read this book, despite
my advice, count the number of times a character thinks to itself:

"Oh PlaceYourFavoriteNameHere."  As in "Oh, Geraden."

Oh ShutUpAlready.

If these lines were removed, the books might fit in a single volume.
Typical Del Rey mush.  Reminded me a bit of the Belgariad, which I also
hated.  I know quite a few of you liked the Belgariad, and you may also
enjoy Mordant's Need.  You might also be brain dead.

Note: The Belgariad is the only set of books that I destroyed after
reading, to prevent any small chance that I might inadvertantly pick up one
of the books again.  The Mordant's Need books will probably share the
distinction.

David Kurlander
Columbia CS Department
djk@vail.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 88 21:26:57 GMT
From: ghogenso@muddcs.claremont.edu (Gordon Hogenson)
Subject: Re: A Man Rides Through (REVIEW)

Reading "Mordant's Need" was one of the highest points of this past year.
It is easily the best book I have read in the last four years, in the field
of fantasy or any other field, and I do read quite a lot.  Why did I like/
love it so much?  Let me explain.  Both books absorbed me utterly for
several days--enough to enter my dreams and command my time for their
duration.

The reviewer of "A Man Rides Through" mentions that the plot was not
extraordinary.  On the contrary, I found the plot superbly done--it seemed
to stand out as one of the few extraordinary plots of our time.  The plot
is totally believable because it moved along by characters--each of whom
has a goal, each of whom has theories about what has been happening, none
of whom is quite right.  Thus, while all the characters are working to
achieve their motives, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes not, the
plot unfolds as if it were happening before my eyes.  I am bewildered that
the plot was called "predictable"--I found it wildly unpredictable, and I
experienced genuine terror at the outcome--who would die and how many.
Each death was a severe blow to me, even the soldiers in the battle, who
die in every fantasy book of this kind.

The horror in this book is very potent, a powerful depiction of the most
twisted, insidious evil.  True, the theme is somewhat like that of the
Covenant novels--a disaffected human who finds her/himself the master of
wild magic...  But I think it is a strong, viable theme and Donaldson
brings it off well.

It always bewilders me when I hear that some people preferred the Covenant
books to these.  I was not particularily excited by much of the Covenant
material.  In "Mordant's Need", the furious pace never lets up.  Many of
you will disagree, but if you liked such books as The Belgariad, and the
Shannara books, Mordant's Need is lightning from the heavens.  Worthy of
the longlasting eminence of true genius, and many rereadings.  

Gordon Hogenson

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 21:23:11 GMT
From: stewarte@sco.com (Dr. Sticky)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

dew@ncsc1.ATT.COM (Dan Woffard x8757) writes:
>  Donaldson's strongest point is his ability to make you care about his
>characters and in the case of the Covenant books the Land itself his
>weakest point is his use of 5 syllable words for no other reason than to
>use a 5 syllable word. I don't like to have to have a dictionary next to
>me when I read a novel.
 
I'd say that Donaldson's weakest point is his persistent use of the word
"roynish", which seems to be the only adjective ever applied to a
particular race of creatures (whose name I forget, and which isn't
important anyway).  I recall being annoyed by several other words that he
seemed to have found, thought "Yeah, this is just the word!" and then used
repeatedly.

I also had difficulty with the character of Covenant himself; for all the
dwelling on his unbelief, I didn't find it convincing.  I did get a little
tired of the whole thing around the fifth book, but I'd recommend the first
trilogy, at least.

Stewart Evans
uunet!sco!stewarte
stewarte@sco.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 12:28:05 GMT
From: bsadrc!usenet@uunet.uu.net (Darrel R. Carver)
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize Ragnarok?

johna@hpcvra.HP.COM (John Allen) writes:
>I'm trying to locate the author and title of the first sci-fi novel I
>read.  I'm hoping one of you will recognize the following blurry
>description and can come up with title/author:

Yes!  An awesome old space opera type yarn.  I found a copy several years
ago in a paperback book store.  The author was Tom Godwin.  The copy I have
was retitled to SPACE PRISON (c)1958 by Gnome Press.  A friend of mine in
Portland Oregon would like to find a copy too.

I have kept this one when I usually get rid of paperbacks (go for cloth
bound instead).  I would like to find a cloth bound copy of this (or two)
along with anything else he has written.

This one is highly recommended for you EES and Legion of Space fans
(rkh@mtune are you listening?).

Darrel R. Carver
Computer Sciences Corporation
White Plains, NY 10606
uunet!bsadrc!drc
att!wp3b01!drc
attmail!dcarver

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 20:58:07 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize Ragnarok?

>Written pre-1958 with a title something like "The Survivors", it centers
>on a group of space travellers whose spaceship is hijacked by a cruel race
>of aliens who maroon the people on a planet called Ragnarok (or something
>like that).

It is "The Survivors" by Tom Godwin. It was also reprinted as "Space
Prison" and there is a sequel, "Space Barbarians."

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 15:59:04 GMT
From: kurash@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Mark Valence)
Subject: Re: one voter

kornellm@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Mark Kornell) writes:
>hin@tnoibbc.UUCP (Hin Oey) writes:
>> I can remember reading a sf story about one voter who decides for all.
>> Was it Asimov??
>
>Yes, it was Asimov, in a short story.  I can't remember what the title
>was, nor where it was printed, though

Hmm... are you sure?  I've read all but a few of the short stories by
Asimov (I wish I had the time). I do not recall this situation in any of
them.  I do, however, remember a Kurt Vonnegut Jr. novel entitled
_Player_Piano_ that used this method of electing the president of the US.
This was his first novel (and one of his best).  If you can give a
reference in Asimov, Mark, I would appreciate it.

M. Valence

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 19:54:31 GMT
From: seanf@sco.com (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: one voter

hin@tnoibbc.UUCP (Hin Oey) writes:
>I can remember reading a sf story about one voter who decides for all. Was
>it Asimov??

No, it was Harlan Ellison.  I know this because I just read this story a
couple of days ago (wow, what a coincidence, huh?).  I forget the title of
the story, but it was in either _Angry Candy_ or _Shatterday_.

Sean Eric Fagan
(408) 458-1422 
seanf@sco.UUCP 

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 322

Today's Topics:

			  Books - Card (14 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 18:16:46 GMT
From: idis!cisunx!jgsst3@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Lucifer)
Subject: Ender

>I think the thing which bothers me the most is the persistent
>manipulation, through cruelty, of Ender.  In a way, this reminds me of
>what I heard about Vietnam draftees -- young kids, leading otherwise
>normal lives, brought into the Army and taught through abuse to be
>killers.

Orson Scott Card puts a great deal of pain into his books.  Pain of many
different types; from the (primarily) psychological pain that Ender goes
through to the pain of the brutal rape of a young girl in his book
_Hart's_Hope_.

The pain in Card's books is present and it sometimes makes for unpleasant
reading but it is not gratuitus and it is not thrown in just for shock
value or to appeal to the type of person who revels in pain.  The pain is
incorporated into the character and molds the growth of the character.

The cruelty that Ender is subjected to is a carefully orchestrated and
desperate attempt by those teaching Ender to produce someone who posseses
the ability to win a war where they cannot.

Your analogy to Vietnam training (or any military training) is not
misplaced.  The object of war (stripped to its essence) is to win.  To do
this you must either stop or overcome your enemies.  This is what Ender is
being trained (his schoolmasters hope) to do.

Orson Scott Card does put a lot of pain into his writing but his is (in my
humble opinion) one of the best writers around right now.

By all means finish _Ender's_Game_.  _Speaker_for_the_Dead_ is a bit more
hopeful but the pain is still there.

John Schmid
ARPANET:  jgsst3@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu
UUCP:     {decwrl!allegra,bellcore,cadre,psuvax1}!pitt!cisunx!cisvms!jgsst3
BITNET:   jgsst3@pittvms.bitnet
INTERNET: jgsst3%vms.cis.pittsburgh.edu@vb.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 18:28:26 GMT
From: rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

jimb@ism780c.UUCP (Jim Brunet) writes:
>[W]here Card really blows it is in the reality/believability of his
>juvenile characters, who have emotional outlooks grossly inconsistent with
>their ages.

They also don't change much.  Compare Ender at the end of the Novel with
Ender at the beginning, they're pretty much the same person emotionally.
All the crises Card puts his characters through never seem to get
internalized; the character feels bad for a while, then recovers to
business as usual unchanged.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 18:19:29 GMT
From: rob@raksha.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

dsb@Rational.COM (David S. Bakin) writes:
>_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
>clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
>Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to
>have a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this
>(or care)?  -- Dave

Same here, until someone convinced me to read _Seventh Son_ nevertheless.
I wasn't disapointed.

Also avoid _Wyrms_ it's the same thing all over again.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 17:48:31 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

odlin@reed.UUCP (Iain Odlin) writes:
>  I have a question, though.  You hit the nail on the head when you said
>non- Mormons would miss the Mormon undertones, so I'd like to know just
>what in the book could be considered 'Mormon themes.'

Mormon themes in Card's work are subtle (except for "Seventh Son", where it
is more overt), but pervasive.  I'll look up a reference to an article on
it in the journal Sunstone last year and post it.  It is probably available
in most university libraries.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 04:29:39 GMT
From: roger_warren_tang@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

   To take an opposing viewpoint, what Spinrad had to say about Card had a
tremendous amount to it.  Ender's Game, in many ways, is just another
replay of an adolescent power fantasy (Aldiss' term for the Emperor of
Everything plot).

   In many ways, what Ender went through in the first book really didn't
affect him, at least not in the proportion of the events.  What you have is
a basically decent kid who gets shit poured on him, goes through the washer
and still comes out a basically decent kid.  Sure, he's marked by events,
but he ISNT warped beyond recognition by it.  In fact, he's rewarded by an
eventual happy ending when a;ll's said and done.

   I'm not sure I entirely buy this.  Sure, we are TOLD that Ender is
scarred by all ther crap he went through.  However, we aren't SHOWN how
badly hurt he is by all this; by all means, Ender still seems a pretty
normal, pretty decent chap at the end.  Still fits into the Emperor of
Everything schema.

   However, that said, I still think Ender's Game is a helluva good novel,
expertly written and DESERVING of the awards it got.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 15:06:25 GMT
From: rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: card

F.FISHBUTT@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> the one thing that drove me crazy about ender's and speaker was that even
> though it was set far in the future, EVERYBODY STILL USES PRIMITIVE
> KEYBOARDS! hopefully if they can invent interstellar travel and
> multi-universe cpmuter networks they can also perfect speach recognition.

The major advance in computing came about because the infinity velocity of
the ansible was faster than bus speed.  Not EVERYONE uses keyboards.  Jill
is able to understand speech and obviously if the terminal is surgically
implanted like Ender's then a keyboard would make it to unwieldy for
practical applications.  Other input peripherals are available in Ender's
universe/time but aren't integral to the story.  It's easier to let people
use keyboards than to write dialogue to describe someone doing file
searches and coding.  Additionally, the bit where Jill stops talking and
Ender has to get help wouldn't make much sense if everyone had it as easy
as he does. ;*).

Charles Rezac
913/864-0472
bitnet: REZAC@UKANVAX
internet: rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 88 15:18:45 GMT
From: rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

>_Enders Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are fine books (the latter is
>clearly better) but having read several other Card books (Seventh Son, and
>Songmaster/Songbird???) I've decided to stop reading him.  He seems to
>have a fetish about 7 year old supergenius kids.  Anyone else notice this
>(or care)?  -- Dave

Not only that he likes to torture them.  Or if he doesn't like it, it
nevertheless occurs all too frequently.  Songmaster was my first Card book
and the prevalence of youthful suffering isn't hard to spot.  This theme of
youth in torment continues in the Alvin Maker books, Hart's Hope, the Ender
books, A Planet Called Treason (if you want to consider Lani a youth), and
virtually every other work of Card's I've read.  This isn't just a yeah I
see that too (YIST2) post.  What I want to know is can anyone explain
exactly what literary tool is being employed here?  How are we supposed to
feel about this and why?  I( couldn't see that it added anything to the
story (which I liked, and why?  I can't see that abusing the wise child
makes the book better so why is it done?

Sign me,
Curious

Charles Rezac
913/864-0472
bitnet: REZAC@UKANVAX
internet: rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 19:40:39 GMT
From: cesbws!ceetm1!root@uccba.uc.edu (Admin)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (Was: Re: Ender)

kornellm@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Mark Kornell) writes:
> On the subject of Orson Scott Card, has anyone read "Seventh Son"?  While
> not exactly sf, it is very good reading.  Anyone hvae comments on the
> book?
> 
> Are there going to be sequels?

Yes, a whole bunch of them in fact!  One already came out earlier this
year, called _Red Prophet_.  (I'm waiting for the paperback.)  (I thought
alternative histories qualified as Fantasy/SciFi but, let's not start
another argument about what's sf! >:)

So far I like what I've read of his works (both Ender books, Wyrms, a few
short stories).  I think they have a very refreshing attitude about
non-Christian ideas.  His writing style is also very tight.  I haven't had
the urge to skip a few pages of boring/rambling paragraphs/dialogues.

(Could someone define the "Mormonistic" themes mentioned in some other
articles.  I have my suspicions, but I'm not real sure.)  

Yun-seng Chao
Cincinnati Electronics, Corp.
Cincinnati, Ohio
(513)-733-6370
{uccba.uc.edu, decuac!uccba, uunet!sdrc, ukma!spca6}!cesbws!yun

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 04:39:15 GMT
From: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Ender

kaydin@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Kerim Aydin) writes:
>    The first book came off as the best.  As somewhat of a game player
> myself, I decided that "the game" as everyone called it would be the best
> live-action war game ever played--I read it and loved it for that
> reason--and of course sympathized with the general who ran the game (you
> know, the one who ended up on the football league).  However, after the
> Bugger home planet died, the story sort of degenerated.

   Interestingly, Orson Scott Card told people that he's had people come up
to him and say "I loved the war scenes in your book." He used it as an
example of how people can misinterpret the intent of the book.

   _Ender's Game_ is not how nifty war games can be.  The intent is quite
the opposite.

Eiji Hirai 
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-328-8225
UUCP: {rutgers, att}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 17:45:56 GMT
From: bg0l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bruce E. Golightly)
Subject: Re: Ender

I have heard statements like "OK, men, here's our plan" coming from the
mouth of a 5 year old. My youngest son uses such phrases in play. He
apparently picks things like this up from T.V. and older kids playing with
my eldest (12).  Context indicates that he has (at least) a fair
understanding of what he's saying and what it means.

Is there any reason that Ender couldn't follow the same pattern? There are
older kids in battle school, and games (video/adventure/...) play a part in
their training. While there are no quotes in the book to support it, the
use of this kind of terminology is not inconsistent with other things going
on.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 19:58:52 GMT
From: kaydin@jarthur.claremont.edu (Kerim Aydin)
Subject: Re: Ender

hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>kaydin@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Kerim Aydin) writes:
>>    The first book came off as the best.  As somewhat of a game player
>> myself, I decided that "the game" as everyone called it would be the
>> best live-action war game ever played--
>
>   _Ender's Game_ is not how nifty war games can be.  The intent is quite
>the opposite.

  All right, I will qualify my first statement.  I DO play war games, both
table top and live versions.  I enjoyed the book's "war games" as games
alone--not for the training exercise they represented.

  I agree that what the games did to Ender shows how wrong these "games"
can become.

  I am more a "scholar of wars" (I use the term loosely) than an armchair
general: I don't want to fight a war, but I find the strategy involved
facinating to study.  I also would not fight a war just to create more for
myself to study.

  I wasn't disappointed with "Speaker" because it didn't have more war
games, I almost liked the book better than the first, except for a few
logical fallicies.  War games or no, the first book DID degenerate toward
the end.

  I sympathised with the general not because he enjoyed fighting or
training monsters--his last tenure in the football league gives us a better
under- standing of his character.  What he did was not right, but he still
loved the game "for the games sake."

  If games are kept games, they do not become reality.  This is the paradox
of the book: the game, up until the end, is still a game.  This makes the
game evil--I'm not saying the generals were just victems of a
misunderstanding.  But the game, in this case, is.

  The generals corrupted it, the Hegemony corrupted it, but this does not
make the game inherently corrupt--just the use.  The game itself is
CERTAINLY less violent than today's football or boxing (which I do NOT
enjoy)--only the symbols of war make it evil.

  Chess is a war game.  Chess players don't always go fight wars.  Nor do
I.  I just don't play chess.

  Not a flame, just a simple response...

kaydin@hmcvax.bitnet
kaydin@jarthur.claremont.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 18:33:26 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re: Ender ** SPOILERS **

elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
> I have come to a disturbing conclusion: the reason people like them is
> BECAUSE of the torture that Carl deplores. Readers get a secret sadistic
> glee from watching Taizu(?) running repeatedly into the limitations of
> the female physique, or Ender getting sadistically ganged up on. Then,
> when they finally succeed at the end, we get a warm and fuzzy feeling...

I don't know... For me, I liked Ender's game because I identified a great
deal with the main character, and I got a kick out of him "defeating" the
other kids in his school despite his physical and social limitations (ie
being several years younger).  I don't know whether this could be called
"sadistic" or not, because I also knew that the "bad" kids were just kids
and that the lesson of Ender would be something that would shape their
lives, possibly making them better people.  People liked Ender because it
was "real."  if ya know what I mean.

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 01:35:54 GMT
From: jimb@ism780c.isc.com (Jim Brunet)
Subject: Re: Ender

bg0l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bruce E. Golightly) writes:
>I have heard statements like "OK, men, here's our plan" coming from the
>mouth of a 5 year old. My youngest son uses such phrases in play. He
>apparently picks things like this up from T.V. and older kids playing with
>my eldest (12).  Context indicates that he has (at least) a fair
>understanding of what he's saying and what it means.
>
>Is there any reason that Ender couldn't follow the same pattern? There are
>older kids in battle school, and games (video/adventure/...) play a part
>in their training. While there are no quotes in the book to support it,
>the use of this kind of terminology is not inconsistant with other things
>going on.

The point is not vocabulary, which can be aped by anyone at any time.  The
point is one of developmental psychology: the degrees of moral abstraction
that an individual is capable of, the psycho-emotional history that an
individual can draw upon in interpreting and responding to a situation, the
ability of an individual to perceive the rest of the world as other than an
extension of himself.  A five-year-old, *any* five year old, will not be
able to have adult-like responses along these lines.  It's fairly common,
on the other hand, to have "adults" whose emotional development has been
impaired at one point or another to be "child-like" (or juvenile, if you
prefer) in some aspects.

My developmental psych background is both informal and patchy -- a few
academic books plus typing a psych dissertation.  Anyone out there in
netland who has a substantive academic background in same care to comment?

Jim Brunet

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 88 05:51:43 GMT
From: nascom!nscpdc!reed!odlin@gatech.edu (Iain Odlin)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>I don't know... For me, I liked Ender's game because I identified a great
>deal with the main character, and I got a kick out of him "defeating" the
>other kids in his school despite his physical and social limitations (ie
>being several years younger).

I concur.  In fact, as a rather nebbish high-schooler, I was always on the
receiving end of many unpleasant things.  After reading "Ender," I took to
heart his attitude of "if I don't stop it now, I'll never be rid of it."
So, in my Physics class, I did a report on the physics of Karate
(specifically, board-breaking) as I had discovered that breaking boards
with your bare hands is extremely easy IF YOU KNOW HOW.  Part of my report,
naturally, involved breaking a board in front of my class-mates.  Needless
to say, I had no problems after that.

Iain Odlin
Box 1014
Reed College
Portland OR 97202
{backbone}!tektronix!reed!odlin
odlin@reed

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 16 Nov 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 323

Today's Topics:

	 Books - Ellison & Hawke & Herbert & McCaffrey (2 msgs) &
                 Norton & Pierce & Schmitz (4 msgs) & Scott (4 msgs) &
                 Smith & Zahn & Doc Savage & Book Request Answered &
                 Definitive lists of Author's Titles

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 05:14:55 GMT
From: jvogel@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jeff Vogel)
Subject: Re: a boy loves his dog

_A Boy and His Dog_ is one of the best short stories I've ever read, and
one of the few with literary merit. NOTE: I don't say enjoyable. It is one
of the most hideous works I've ever read (Thieves' World looks tame by
comparison, kids), but it's an experience, and I've never seen the story
get anything but a strong reaction.
   It has some fascinating things to say about the holocaust's effects on
humanity, it's standards, it's morals, and (especially) it's changing views
on what love is. In fact, the last is a dominant theme of the story, with a
strongly moving detail on how the meaning of love has become totally
twisted.
   Trust me: this is a very powerful, very repulsive story. One of my
friends refuses to read anything by Ellison, based on _A Boy and His Dog_.
But trust me. It is a work of art.
 
Jeff Vogel

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 12:37:39 GMT
From: rvermaa@klipper.cs.vu.nl (Richard Vermaas)
Subject: Psychodrome - Simon Hawke

Recently I read two books written by Simon Hawke:
  Psychodrome
  Psychodrome II: The Shapechanger Scenario (the sequel)

Now the story doesn't seem to end in the sequel so I would like to know if
there are more sequels and if there are, what are the titles ?

Thanks in advance,

Richard Vermaas
mcvax!cs.vu.nl!rvermaa

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 88 22:15:29 GMT
From: J_STEPHEN_HALL@cup.portal.com
Subject: More DUNE books by Brian Herbert?

  Is it true that Frank Herbert's son, Brian, is going to continue with the
DUNE series?!

Thanks,  

Steve
J_STEPHEN_HALL@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 23:32:00 GMT
From: teurow@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu
Subject: Dragondawn...it's heeeeere....

While eavesdropping I heard that Dragondawn, by Ann McCaffrey, is out... Is
this true?  Has anyone read it?  Is it as entertaining as the other Pern -
dragon books?  Would appreciate a brief review/opinion of a dragon-fan.

Teurow

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 14:30:39 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Dragondawn

teurow@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu writes:
>While eavesdropping I heard that Dragondawn, by Ann McCaffrey, is out...
>Is this true?  Has anyone read it?  Is it as entertaining as the other
>Pern - dragon books?  Would appreciate a brief review/opinion of a
>dragon-fan.

Dragonsdawn, by Anne McCaffrey, is out in hardback.

It is about the arrival of humans on Pern, and the first few years of the
colony.  In my opinion, it is as good as the other books (though not as
good as the best, The White Dragon).  However, I'd advise reading it twice
fairly quickly.  The first time through, I was distracted by finding all
the links with the Pern of a couple of millennia later - "gee, here's where
they discover glows" - "so THAT'S how Klah is made" - "when is the volcano
going to blow" - and so on.  On the second pass (oops, make that "on the
second read") it is easier to appreciate the story and characters.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 88 09:30:25 GMT
From: mmcs131@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Michael Mcallister)
Subject: Dread Companion

   When I was very young I read Andre Norton's _Dread Companion_
'weirdness' attracts me now, if I remember it correctly. But the only other
novel of Norton's that I've read is _Witch World_ and it had none of the
qualities I was looking for: it seemed more straightforward in universal
concepts and had none of the 'weirdness'?  that I remember from Dread
Companion.

    If anyone understands what I'm saying, or trying to say, could you
recommend any other Norton books that have those qualities?

Mike McAllister
New Mexico Tech
Socorro, NM 87801

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 88 06:54:20 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Pierce

>A friend of mine is wondering about the _Dark Angel_ "trilogy" by Meredith
>Ann Pierce... what are the exact titles of the first two books? And did
>the third book ever come out?

The first is _Darkangel_, the second _A Gathering of Gargoyles_. I've never
heard of the third, and I've been looking.

For those who don't know, it's a fantasy told in fairy tale style (with
hints of our reality poking through -- it takes place on a world with days
and nights two weeks long, and a blue crescent hanging motionless in the
sky...) Very original, enjoyable. (Although I thought the second book
slightly better.)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 04:08:54 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: James Schmidt -- name this book

rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> James Schmidt had a Telzey Amberdon story with a Trigger Argee crossover
> (or maybe a Trigger story with Telzry in it). ...

Two possibilites I found:

1.  "Compulsion" (Analog, June, 1970) also collected in "The Telzey Toy and
    Other Stories"
 
2.  "Glory Day" (Analog, June, 1971) not collected as far as I know.

> Also, does anyone have any information about Schmidt.  Is he still
> writing?

He died about 5 years ago, in addition the latest work I know of was a
hardback novel "The Eternal Frontiers" in 1973.  In one of his obituaries,
it said that he didn't do much writing after John W. Campbell died ( in
1971?).

> A list of his works.  

Books:

Agent of Vega
The Demon Breed
The Eternal Frontiers
The Lion Game
A Nice Day for Screaming and Other Tales of the Hub
A Pride of Monsters
The Tale of Two Clocks ( Also published as "Legacy")
The Telzey Toy
The Universe Against Her
The Witches of Karres

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz		

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 20:04:01 GMT
From: mcp@sei.cmu.edu (Mark Paulk)
Subject: James Schmitz

Trigger and Telzey appear together in A TALE OF TWO CLOCK aka LEGACY.

Mark C. Paulk 
mcp@sei.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 04:40:50 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

mcp@sei (Mark Paulk) writes:
>Trigger and Telzey appear together in A TALE OF TWO CLOCK aka LEGACY.

  Trigger is the protagonist. Telzey doesn't appear, unless under another
name (Pilch or something like that *was* in there, a Psychology Corps
"egghead").

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith
ucbvax!bosco!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 17:36:22 GMT
From: arrom@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee )
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

The problem I have with Schmitz's stories (at least the ones set in the
Telzey/Trigger universe) is that we have people working for the government
going around doing things (invading privacy) that _I_ certainly wouldn't
want _my_ government doing to me...

Kenneth Arromdee
ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP
arromdee@crabcake.cs.jhu.edu
g49i0188@jhuvm.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 88 21:08:05 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Melissa Scott has a new book out ?

rezac@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>A friend told me that she had seen a new Melissa Scott book out, or
>rather, a book co-written by Scott...

   The Armor of Light
   Melissa Scott & Lisa A Barnet
   Baen Books, ISBN 0-671-69783-8

I now buy anything by Melissa Scott.  But a book by her, set in Elizabethan
England, starring Sir Philip Sidney, and whose title is taken from the
Advent Collect... the bookstore is still picking up the trampled customers
between me and the cash desk!

It is an excellent book.  There are perhaps a few too many walk-on
appearances by famous people, but the period flavour is very good, and the
characters used bear reasonable resemblance to what we know of them from
history.  The two main characters in the novel died young in our history,
and I found especially enthralling the way their characters were developed
into a maturity they never actually lived to enjoy.

The novel is also an "alternative history" book, but in a rather different
way.  If you will, it is an "alternative historiography" novel; what
matters is not so much that events occur that didn't happen in our world,
but that the characters interpret events, both real and fictional, in a way
that modern people do not.

Enough said.  Highly recommended.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 04:36:30 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Melissa Scott has a new book out ?

>"Armor of Light", by Melissa Scott and Lisa Barnes.
>It's an enjoyable -- and apparently well-researched -- historical fantasy.

Not very well researched, actually. The arch-angels, according to one of my
more well-informed sources, are completely wrong. Great for the story, but
ten minutes with a priest would have shown up lots of errors.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 19:55:54 GMT
From: vnend@ms.uky.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Melissa Scott has a new book out ?

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>"Armor of Light", by Melissa Scott and Lisa Barnes.
>>It's an enjoyable -- and apparently well-researched -- historical
>>fantasy.
 >
>Not very well researched, actually. The arch-angels, according to one of
>my more well-informed sources, are completely wrong. Great for the story,
>but ten minutes with a priest would have shown up lots of errors.

Depends on who you ask.  I know of at least three lists of "ArchAngels".
There may be more.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 02:01:29 GMT
From: cloud9!jjmhome!lmann@encore.encore.com (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Melissa Scott has a new book out ?

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>   The Armor of Light
>   Melissa Scott & Lisa A Barnet
>   Baen Books, ISBN 0-671-69783-8
>
> I now buy anything by Melissa Scott.  But a book by her, set in
> Elizabethan England, starring Sir Philip Sidney, and whose title is taken
> from the Advent Collect... the bookstore is still picking up the trampled
> customers between me and the cash desk!

I'm about 1/4 into the book so far.  I find it PAINFULLY slow-going so far,
and I usually like books that are detailed.  But I do want to finish it, so
I'll continue working on it.

Tudor England is one of my few areas of "expertise."  The research Scott
and Barnet did is IMPRESSIVE.  Now if only the artist had drawn Elizabeth
correctly.

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
{harvard,ulowell}!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
lmann@jjmhome.UUCP 
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 01:36:43 GMT
From: texbell!mic!d25001@cs.utexas.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Re: The Lens Universe

COSC35N@UHVAX1.UH.EDU writes:
>  Doc Smith also wrote a novel, "The Galaxy Primes", that has not been in
>print very often. My copy is an ACE paperback, copyright 1965.
>
>like it probably would have been the start of a new series of books, but,
>the good Doctor passed on right about the same time it was published. If
>you can find a copy, I highly recommend it.

   _The_Galaxy_Primes_ was first published as a serial in _Amazing_
_Science_Fiction_Stories_ [now _Amazing_(tm)_Stories_] in mid 1959.
According to rumor at the time (well, a _little_ later), Doc was not happy
with the amount of "revision" that the story had undergone at the hands of
the magazine's editor(s).
    Never the less, the text of the Ace paperback is the same as that of
the original magazine serial.  If the rumor is true, we have _never_ seen
this (fairly) important Smith novel as the author intended.

    I remember enjoying the story when I read it many years ago.  I wish
some interprising publisher would bring out a 'definitive text' version of
_it_ instead of all the Smith apocrypha that we have been getting.  Good
luck to anyone trying to find either of the previous editions.

Carrington Dixon
{ convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 88 02:38:23 GMT
From: rti!sas!sasblc@mcnc.mcnc.org (Brad Chisholm)
Subject: Timothy Zahn

   Having been on one of my occasional reading binges lately, I picked up
"Cobra" and "Deadman Switch" by Timothy Zahn and read them on two
successive nights.  Perhaps I've been living an isolated life, but these
are the first books I've read by Mr. Zahn.  Is he well known/respected, or
has he just recently started getting accolades (award mentions were part of
the reason I decided to get the books) ?

   I enjoyed both books, but I liked "Deadman" better.  It seemed to flow
better than "Cobra", and something about laminating bones didn't set quite
right...

   Anyway, how are the other Cobra books, "Cobra Strike!" and "Cobra xxxx"
(the second name escapes me at the moment)?  Are they worth reading, or
would they just be a waste of time/money?  How about other books by Zahn?
All comments welcome....

Brad L. Chisholm
sasblc@sas.UUCP
<backbone>!mcnc!rti!sas!sasblc

------------------------------

From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Doc Savage and Edgar Rice Burroughs
Date: 8 Nov 88 18:05:11 GMT

dfc@hpindda.HP.COM (Don Coolidge) writes:
> This is fascinating. Everyone whose response made it to my notes hub said
> that most, if not all, of the Burroughs books were a) based on the same
> swashbuckling formula, b) predictable, and c) extremely enjoyable.
> 
> And I'm not about to disagree with any of the above.

This is very similar to my feelings for the Doc Savage pulp adventures.
Lester Dent wrote them all according to formula (a *real* formula he had
taped on the wall in front of his typewriter), and his ghost writers took
their plot formations from his books, so the formula lives there, too.

Part of my enjoyment of Doc comes from looking for the formula and its
variations.  Some very clever twists turn up that way.

While plot isn't everything, it was certainly the main thing for Doc.  But
Dent's style is also enjoyable for its rat-tat-tat rhythm, and the post-WW2
adventures do some interesting things with both style and characterization
(for you r.a.comics readers, it's like seeing how Alan Moore maintains an
old character's funky continuity while bringing in his own point-of-view on
the character).

So remember: some of your favorite recreational drugs (including alcohol
and nicotine) are made according to formula, too!

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 15:33:04 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: One Ordinary Day

stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu ( Steven Stadnicki) writes:
>the title was something like "One Plain Day" or something like that, and
>it was a slice-of-life type story--very difficult to describe, as it
>didn't have much action (which is easier to remember), so it may be hard
>to find the exact title; however, I do remember that it was written by
>Shirley Jackson, if that helps much.

That's _ordinary_ day, son.  To be precise, "One Ordinary Day, With
Peanuts."  It is indeed by Shirley Jackson; it has appeared in a Best of
F&SF collection, and numerous other places -- I *think* it's also in one of
her own collections of short stories, but I can't swear to it.  There are
only two or three of these, so your best bet is probably to look there.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 00:58:38 GMT
From: emoryu1!dalcs!aucs!840369k@gatech.edu (Kelly D. Kendrick)
Subject: Definitive lists of Author's Titles

Many weeks ago, a fairly impressive list of Micheal Moorcock novels was
posted.  Since I was trying to complete the "Eternal Champion" series and
was also interested in some of his other works, I was thrilled by this
posting.  It occurs to me that more postings like this would be very useful
for those trying to complete their [favourite author] series.  Are any kind
souls out there willing to attempt these heroic deeds?  If so, here are
some of my suggestions:

1. Edgar Rice Burroughs  (TARZAN, etc.)

2. Robert E. Howard     (CONAN, KULL, BRAN MAK MORN, etc.)

3. Poul Anderson

4. Lin Carter

5. L. Sprague de Camp

6. Fritz Lieber         (FAFHRD and GREY MOUSER, etc.)  ****

7. Andrew J. Offut      (CORMAC MAC ART) 

8. Fred Saberhagen      (The Complete Book of Swords)

9. (any other suggestions ??)

Kelly Kendrick
Acadia University, N.S.
{seismo|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!840369k               |

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 21 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 324

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Cherryh & Donaldson &
                      Foster & Leiber (3 msgs) & Longyear (2 msgs) & 
                      Norton & Schmitz & Zahn

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 19:08:16 GMT
From: dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell)
Subject: Re: one voter

hin@tnoibbc.UUCP (Hin Oey) writes:
>I can remember reading a sf story about one voter who decides for all. Was
>it Asimov??

   Yes, it was Asimov. I think the story was called "Polling Day", but it
was definitely in the collection "Earth is room enough".

   What do people think of Asimov's short fiction?

dbell@maths.tcd.ie

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 13:10:43 GMT
From: maujt@warwick.ac.uk (Richard J Cox)
Subject: Asimov's short stories (was Re: one voter)

dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) writes:
>What do people think of Asimov's short fiction?

A lot more than his full length novels. Overall I think his short stories
tend to be more diverse and enjoyable, after all the original three
Foundation books were made up from short stories. If I see a book of his
short stories I read it asap but if it is a full length novel it usually
gets left lying around for a while.

Richard Cox
84 St. Georges Rd
Coventry, CV1 2DL; UK
(0203) 520995
JANET:  maujt@uk.ac.warwick.cu
BITNET:  maujt%uk.ac.warwick.cu@UKACRL
ARPA:   maujt@cu.warwick.ac.uk
UUCP:   maujt%cu.warwick.ac.uk@ukc.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 06:33:08 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: _Cyteen_, C.J. Cherryh

Cyteen: A review

If C.J. Cherryh doesn't place high in the awards with this book, it won't
be because it's a bad book. This is one of the better books that I have
read recently, and certainly stacks up well against some of the weaker
awards winners of the recent past (_Speaker for the Dead_ and _Uplift War_
come to mind, as books that won because they were popular sequels to award
winners, not because they were fine literature).

One of the advantages of science fiction is that it can be a "literature of
ideas". Unlike modern literary fiction, which denies the veracity of
reality and says that emotions are the only thing that's "true", science
fiction can explore difficult issues in the Real World. In this case,
Cherryh tackles the "nature versus nurture" debate in developmental
psychology circles, scientific ethics vs. the needs of society, and and
even skips around the edges of one of the most difficult questions around:
what is Man? And that's only the beginning... this is one of the most
idea-chocked pieces of science fiction to hit the presses since the Golden
Age came and went.

As for the writing, it's Cherryh's usual style, with all its advantages and
disadvantages. Cherryh tends to wander between an omniscient 3rd-person
narrator and a single personal 3rd-person narrator. She usually ends up
painting a pretty good picture of the person whose viewpoint she's writing
from, but the supporting cast sometimes come out in various shades of grey.
In Cyteen she breaks somewhat from that style, occasionally shifting into
the viewpoint of some of her peripheral characters. Still, most of it is
told from the viewpoint of the main character, Ariane Emory, and the
primary secondary character, Justin Warrick, both Parental Replicants:
perfectly cloned genetic copies of their parents, brilliant researchers
with serious personality problems. Her characterization holds up quite well
considering the immense size of the book, except for at the very end where
her uncle Denys acts extremely out of character -- but more on that later.

Cyteen is big -- VERY big. My copy is the Science Fiction Book Club
edition, 850 pages of small text. It took me 14 hours to read it, and I am
a quite fast reader (it takes me maybe 4 hours to snarf down the average
250 page novel). But so is the scope of the book: the attempt to recreate a
human being, by duplicating heredity exactly and environment as much as
necessary. In this case, it's Ariane Emory who's the subject of the
experiment, after her famous predecessor and namesake dies either by
accident, by murder, or by suicide (I favor the suicide theory, since she
was dying of cancer and wanted to embarrass the person accused of the
murder, but we never know exactly what went on down there in that room). At
which point comes in "Uncle Denys", who takes over parenting her at age 7,
when her surrogate mother is shipped out to the edge of the Union (the
original Ariane's mother died at age 7). The original Ariane, too, was
given over to an uncle, but there's one critical difference between the
original Ariene's uncle and Denys: Denys doesn't sexually abuse his charge.
    Add in that the ORIGINAL Ariene is still in the picture, through the
miracles of computer files left to her replicant in hopes of saving her
from the original's mistakes, and what comes out is a very brilliant,
reasonably sane young woman, with all the brilliance but few of the
personality problems of her namesake. She still is troubled, at times (who
of us aren't), especially by loneliness, but she can cope: she doesn't
descend to the warped sexual fantasy and abuse of her predecessor. What
Cherryh seems to be saying is this: suffering is necessary, to reach your
potential. Without suffering of some sort, there's no reason to perform to
the ultimate of your ability. But, too much pain and suffering can warp a
person, and if the person simply is not strong enough, can break her. It's
a bleak philosophy. Alas, if you look at the ranks of the most brilliant
people of yesteryear, it suddenly doesn't seem so unlikely.
    At which point we get to Denys, and where he acts out of character: At
the end of the book, he tries to kill her.
    It's not TOO unexpected... Denys, intentionally or unintentionally,
came perilously close to sabotaging the project by being too soft on little
Ari. Still, he's a rather sedentary person, very intellectual, very warped,
and it's simply out of character for him to order a direct assasination of
the girl who lived with him for 5 years. Denys struck me as the sort of
person who'd put arsenic in your porridge, or flood your room with poison
gas, not the kind who'd resort to weapons... weapons are so... unsubtle.

Final ratings:
  Characterization: above average
  Content: Much above average.
  Style: average
  Entertainment index: above average
  Overall: above average.

Note that I'm fairly difficult to please... I haven't rated many other book
I've read this year as "above average"... Cherryh's other book _The
Palladin_ comes to mind (alas, it, too, suffers from a bad ending... of
Cherryh's recent books, the only one I can think of that had a decent
ending was the Chanur series).

Why this book won't win a Nebula: It's not "literary" enough... everybody
knows that Nebulae are awarded for style, not content.

Why it won't win a Hugo: Hugos are popularity contests. Cyteen has the
potential to be a very popular book... huge blockbusters seem to be
especially common lately, and Cyteen avoids the primary error of most of
them (huge casts of supporting characters, so lightly sketched that all of
their names and jobs could be interchanged without the reader being able to
tell the difference). Unfortunately, distribution is going to be a BIG
problem... the Science Fiction Book Club printed Cyteen in small type, on
larger-than-paperback pages, and it's still more than 800 pages. It most
probably will have to be split in two to be put into paperback... will the
publisher do it, and will booksellers stock it? Only time will tell...  in
the meantime, it seems unlikely that it will attain the popularity to win a
Hugo in its year of publication.

Should you go out and buy it?
     It depends. Do you have a month to spare, or read fast enough to
devour it in one gulp over a weekend? Can you keep your attention on one
book for 16 hours worth of reading?  (big question... even I started
wandering, occasionally, towards the end). Do you want to join the SF Book
Club, or buy it in hardcover? If the answer is "Yes" to all of the above,
then buy it. If your idea of literature is the Xanth series and Alan Dean
Foster, don't bother.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 88 23:49:42 GMT
From: gds@spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson, works of

Someone wrote:
> Donaldson's strongest point is his ability to make you care about his
> characters and in the case of the Covenant books the Land itself his
> weakest point is his use of 5 syllable words for no other reason than to
> use a 5 syllable word. I don't like to have to have a dictionary next to
> me when I read a novel.

I was thinking about posting some words to this effect.  I just recently
reread parts of The One Tree and The Wounded Land.  I had a pocket
dictionary beside me and some of the words in the book were not in the
dictionary.  I must have had a more complete dictionary on hand the first
time I read those books, or my vocabulary was larger. :-)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 20:56:52 GMT
From: rti!ntcsd1!dmc@mcnc.mcnc.org (David Clemens)
Subject: Re: Alan Dean Foster Fans

>Also am I the only Alan Dean Foster Fan out there or is this
>an old subject?

I am also new to the net (this is my first posting) but Alan Dean Foster is
one of my favorite authors. I have read most of his stuff and find that,
unlike some authors, the writing style, while always good, is adapted to
the needs of the book. There are some authors whose style is consistent and
distinctive enough to recognize in all of their books.

ADF also seems to have a lot more variety in his books than most authors.
He does fantasy as well as SF. He can write comedies and spoofs, but also
writes adventure and some semi-dramatical works.

    By the way, does anyone else think that he is unique in being able to
write a book from a movie script and have the book be better than the movie
while still following the storyline of the movie? The best example of this
is "The Last Starfighter" which follows the movie almost exactly while
coming across as more realistic and less hokey.

Any other opinions?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 88 19:47:54 GMT
From: sfsup!sgore@att.att.com 
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber

How many Fahfrd/Grey Mouser novels are there?  I exhausted the supply of my
local bookstore at #3...

Thanks in advance

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 88 23:46:48 GMT
From: hubcap!jstehma@gatech.edu (Jeff Stehman)
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber

sgore@sfsup.UUCP writes:
> How many Fahfrd/Grey Mouser novels are there?  I exhausted the supply of
> my local bookstore at #3...

	Six.  I once saw all six of them in one place at the same time.
Naturally, I bought them.  I don't think such has occured since.  It's
kind of like aligning the planets.

Jeff Stehman

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 06:37:37 GMT
From: rcarver@udenva.cair.du.edu (Randall P. Carver)
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber

Six by my count too:

Swords Against Death 
Swords Against Wizardry
Swords and Deviltry
Swords and Ice Magic
Swards in the Mist
Swords of Lankhmar

These were all written in the late 60's (sorry don't have my library or a
BIP handy) and I'm sure they've been reissued a few times since.  I think
that my copies are Bantam.  However as to not much occuring since, I heard
that a new F+GM was being worked on.  Memory fails me as to where and when
but if anyone in netland has any word one way or the other I'd sure be
grateful.

While we're talking about Fritz has anyone read or heard of anything else
by him?

Thanx in Advance

Randy Carver       
Mile High University
{ hao,ncar,nbires,onecom }!udenva!rcarver
rcarver@udenva.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 19:05:40 GMT
From: williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Barry Longyear

FNBENJ@WEIZMANN.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
>I was interested to read all the criticism of Orson Scott Card where
>people complained of his cruelty to children.  Nothing in the Ender
>novels, however, compares to the hideousness in Barry Longyear's Sea of
>Glass.  I'm still trying to decide if the horror is gratuitous.  The main
>thrust of the book seems to be how the central character is intentionally
>molded for his future by his ghastly upbringing, but was all the detail
>necessary?
>
>I'd appreciate hearing comments about this disturbing book.

I don't think that SEA OF GLASS would be as powerful without the detail.
Longyear could have just said, "Oh, they were mean to the unwanted
children," and skipped on, but it wouldn't have meant anything.  The lives
of the unwanted children, both before capture and in the camp, are
reminiscent of the lives of Jews in Nazi Germany, and illustrate his point
well.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 23:36:17 GMT
From: cloud9!jjmhome!lmann@encore.encore.com (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Re: Barry Longyear

FNBENJ@WEIZMANN.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
> Nothing in the Ender novels, however, compares to the hideousness in
> Barry Longyear's Sea of Glass.  I'm still trying to decide if the horror
> is gratuitous.  The main thrust of the book seems to be how the central
> character is intentionally molded for his future by his ghastly
> upbringing, but was all the detail necessary?

I happened to hear Longyear discuss that book at Readercon just this
afternoon.  He said that as he was writing the book, he was trying to show
what happens when your population explodes beyond the point that there's
enough food to support it.  I haven't read the book, but his comments on it
intrigued me.

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
harvard!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
encore!jjmhome!lmann
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 88 19:26:51 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Dread Companion

mmcs131@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Michael Mcallister):
>'weirdness' attracts me now, if I remember it correctly. But the only
>other novel of Norton's that I've read is _Witch World_ and it had none of
>the qualities I was looking for: it seemed more straightforward in
>universal concepts and had none of the 'weirdness'? that I remember from
>Dread Companion.
>
>If anyone understands what I'm saying, or trying to say, could you
>recommend any other Norton books that have those qualities?

You may be out of luck.  I'd say "Dread Companion" was an outlier: There
are a couple of later Norton books with similar orientations, but they're
not very well written.  You might try "Dark Piper", which, for me, played
upon many of the same emotional chords as "Dread Companion" -- but
defintely lacks what I think you mean by 'weirdness'.  (Science fiction
about youngsters picking up the pieces of their lives on a world taken over
by intelligent [mutated] animals.)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 88 08:26:09 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: James Schmitz

gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) writes:
>mcp@sei (Mark Paulk) writes:
>>Trigger and Telzey appear together in A TALE OF TWO CLOCK aka LEGACY.
>
>   Trigger is the protagonist. Telzey doesn't appear, unless under another
> name (Pilch or something like that *was* in there, a Psychology Corps
> "egghead").

No, both Pilch and Telzey appear in "Compulsion", in "the Telzey Toy".

Two other stories related to "The Tale of Two Clocks"

"Harvest Time", Astounding, September 1958, a prequel to "The Tale of Two
Clocks"

"Sour Note on Palayata", Astounding, November 1958 , a Psychology Service
story featuring Pilch.

It's fun to dig up all the strange uncollected or obscure stories by a
given author.  As you can tell, Schmitz is my current search target.  Can
anyone post a plot summary of "The Eternal Frontiers".

Mark Zenier
uunet!pilchuck!ssc!markz
markz@ssc.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 07:59:47 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn

sasblc@sas.UUCP (Brad Chisholm) writes:
>   Having been on one of my occasional reading binges lately, I picked up
>"Cobra" and "Deadman Switch" by Timothy Zahn and read them on two
>successive nights.  Perhaps I've been living an isolated life, but these
>are the first books I've read by Mr. Zahn.  Is he well known/respected, or
>has he just recently started getting accolades (award mentions were part
>of the reason I decided to get the books) ?

I like some of Zahn's work a lot.  For a while he was a very regular
contributor to Analog, writing some outstanding short stories.  His "Pawn's
Gambit" is one of my all-time favorites.  Good stuff!!

I didn't care as much for the Cobra stories.  Well done, but the premise
seemed to me to be a little too 'comic book'.  (Granted, Zahn by no means
gave it a 'comic book' treatment.)  I've only read the ones that appeared
in Analog, which was several years ago.

_Cascade Point_ and _Spinnerette_ are both outstanding.  I enjoyed _A
Coming of Age_, too.

Mike Van Pelt
vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 21 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 325

Today's Topics:

			Books - Brin & Pratchett &
                                The Star Trek Concordance & 
                                Solomon Kane & The Dreamery (2 msgs)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 88 18:02:23 GMTF
rom: m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Re: Uplift

kwatts%tahquitz@Sun.COM (Kevin L. Watts) writes:
>I had thought that I had heard about a fourth book in David Brin's Uplift
>series, titled "Earth Clan". Can anyone confirm or deny this?  I am
>currently reading "Sundiver" and have already read "Startide Rising" and
>"The Uplift War". I like them.

   "Earth Clan" is the Science Fiction Book Club's special edition of
"Startide Rising" and "The Uplift War" under one cover.  As far as I know,
it does not contain any new material.

   SFBC is in the habit of doing this: Asimov's Foundation Trilogy,
LeGuin's Hannish novels, Moorcock's Elric novels, McCaffrey's Pern novels,
etc.  I'm not sure what motivates them to do this -- I believe these
collection books are cheaper than the sum of buying each novel individually
from them so it cannot be for financial reasons.

Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
{gatech, decuac, sun, necntc, ukma, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 06:27:58 GMT
From: reed!todd@ogccse.uucp (Todd Ellner)
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

kev@ist.CO.UK (News reading a/c for kevin) writes:
>The sixth Discworld novel, Wyrd Sisters, by Terry Pratchett, has just been
>released.

Now, let's see.  There was _The_Color_of_Magic_, _The_Light_Fantastic_, and
_Equal_Rites_.  Damn it, what are the other two that are already out!? If
they're out in the UK but not in the US how many vital organs do I have to
send you to get you to send me a copy?  Inquiring readers want to know.

Todd Ellner
...tektronix!reed!todd
todd@REED.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 88 20:35:11 GMT
From: klaes@mtwain.dec.com (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283)
Subject: THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE (1976) critique update.

   The following is an update to my critique of THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE
(1976), which I posted to the net in September.  I have corrected errors
made on my part in the critique, as well as noting new errors previously
missed in the book.  This update will later be incorporated into the entire
critique, which will be completely revised.  The original ST CONCORDANCE
critique is available over the net upon request, as will be the revised
version when completed.  Comments, information, questions, and corrections
on the ST CONCORDANCE critique are most welcome.

   I would like to thank the following people who assisted me in revising
my critique whose information I used: Donald Aehl, Eric Cotton, Hal Heydt,
Jim Kershner, Steve Willows, and of course, Bjo Trimble.

   In my introduction, I stated that original editions of Franz Joseph's
STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL (1975) were only available to fans and
collectors for $100 and up through most STAR TREK merchandise dealers.
While this is sadly true, there was a 1986 softcover edition of the
Technical Manual published for only $10.95, which is otherwise identical to
the original and currently available at that price to the public through
any good mass-market bookstores.

   In regards to the episode "The Doomsday Machine", I stated that science
fiction author Norman Spinrad, who wrote the episode, also wrote several
Berserker stories.  This is not true.  The Berserker saga was created by
Fred Saberhagen, who has written all the novels on these alien war
machines, with the exception of BERSERKER BASE (1985), which was a
collaboration with six other SF writers, none of whom were Spinrad.
Spinrad did originally plan to have the Doomsday Machine appear bristling
with weapons on its surface - which is similar to Saberhagen's Berserker
design - but this was rejected by the producers in favor of the cheaper
hollow cone model.

   I stated that Commodore Stone called out the starship REPUBLIC's
registration number as NCC-1371 in "Court Martial".  Actually it was
Captain Kirk who said the number, not Stone.

   The actor who played the The M113 Monster (Salt Vampire) as it actually
appeared, listed as "Unknown" in the cast credits for "The Man Trap" on
page 37, has been identified as Janos Prohaska, who also created and wore
the costumes of the Horta in "The Devil in the Dark", the Mugato in "A
Private Little War", and the Excalbian Yarnek in The Savage Curtain".  All
other "Unknown" actors, actresses, and animated voices remain unidentified
at this time.

   I have always felt that the description of the climax of "The Naked
Time" plot synopsis on page 38 was in need of a more informative
description.  The ending as written in the CONCORDANCE states: "Kirk,
Spock, and Scott manage to save the ship at almost the last minute by means
of much willpower and some very unorthodox engineering."
   To elucidate, Kevin Riley, under the influence of the Psi 2000 virus,
locked himself in engineering and shut down the ENTERPRISE's engines before
he could be stopped.  This caused the starship to deorbit and start
spiraling in towards the planet (though in reality it would not have).  The
Warp engines needed at least thirty minutes of "warming up" to function
properly, but the ENTERPRISE would burn up in Psi 2000's atmosphere long
before then, so Kirk and Company decided to "cold start" the engines in
order to escape.  This was incredibly risky, but it worked, and not only
blasted the starship out of orbit, but sent the ship and its crew back in
time three days.

   On page 49 in the cast listing for the episode "The Devil in the Dark",
the actor who played the Horta, Janos Prohaska, is incorrectly given the
first name of James.

   On page 123, the gladiator Achilles is wrongly described as being
matched against McCoy in the televised Roman game of NAME THE WINNER on
Planet 892-IV in the episode "Bread and Circuses".  Achilles was matched
against Spock in the game.  Similarly, on page 159, Flavius Maximus is
wrongly described as fighting against Spock; Maximus was pitted against
McCoy.

   On page 130 in the Atoz, Mr. definition, the Sarpeidon librarian did not
send Kirk, Spock, and McCoy into his planet's past (they went through the
first time on their own, though unwittingly) as stated in the CONCORDANCE,
though he did *try* to send Kirk into the past after Kirk returned from his
time-travel trip, but Atoz was not successful.

   On pages 130 and 200, where the probe NOMAD's launch date from Earth is
given as August, 2002, the year 2002 is written on the blueprint of NOMAD's
original design, but the month August is nowhere to be found on it, nor was
a specific launch date spoken of in "The Changeling" (beyond the mention of
the early Twenty-First Century), so I must presume it was information from
the script which never made it to the televised version of the episode.
Evidence for this comes from page 33 of James Blish's book, STAR TREK 7
(1972), which mentions August, 2002; Blish only had scripts to go on when
novelizing the STAR TREK episodes.

   On page 134, the celestial object called a black hole (better known as a
collapsar) is defined thusly: "In our universe, a star which suddenly goes
nova and implodes, burning itself up but still having the same mass as the
original, though smaller in size."  Unfortunately this is not how
collapsars work in *our* Universe; collapsars are created when stars
supernova, and their mass is so highly concentrated that it theoretically
occupies no space at all singularity).  The gravitational field surrounding
a collapsar is believed to be so intense that not even light, which has a
velocity of 300,000 kilometers per second (186,000 miles per second), may
not escape from a region immediately surrounding the concentrated mass,
known as the Schwarzschild radius.

   On page 137, the planet Capella 4 (from "Friday's Child") is described
as appearing from space as "...predominantly greenish blue with red seas."
As seen in the episode, however, it looks very similar to Earth, with blue
oceans and brownish land masses, but having fewer clouds.

   On page 169, the Hortas on planet Janus 6 have all but one of their race
die out every *fifty* thousand years, not sixty thousand as stated in the
CONCORDANCE.

   On page 177 in the definition of Khan Noonian Singh, it is said that
Khan and *eighty* of his followers escaped Earth at the end of the Eugenics
Wars in the 1990s in the sleeper spacecraft S.S. BOTANY BAY.  To be
accurate, there were eighty-four "supermen" aboard the DY-100 class ship,
which by the time the ENTERPRISE found them drifting in interstellar space,
twelve suspended animation units had malfunctioned, leaving seventy-two
still operating, of which thirty units were occupied by women.

   On page 179 in the Klingon transporter system definition, it should be
added that Klingon transporters do not make any noise when beaming
personnel, unlike Federation transporters.  This is no doubt a military
tactical advantage for the Klingons when they beam troops into enemy
territory, to catch the enemy by surprise through lack of noise.

   On pages 180 and 181 in the definition of Kryton, the Elasian does not
trick security guard Evans into killing him with his phaser.  Kryton
suddenly grabbed Evans' phaser and shot himself.

   On page 184 in the "Let me help" definition from the episode "The City
on the Edge of Forever", the CONCORDANCE has the phrase which Kirk told
Edith Keeler as being recommended by a future novelist from a planet
orbiting the "far star in Orion's belt".  Actually it should be the "far
*left* star" in the Belt of the constellation Orion.  Just for the record,
this star, called either Alnitak or Zeta Orionis, is a trinary stellar
system approximately 1,500 light years from Earth.  The primary star of the
group is a blue-white supergiant.  Since blue-white supergiants only last
tens of millions of years, it is doubtful that there would have been time
for planets and intelligent life to evolve in that system, plus the
problems of development induced by the simultaneous gravitational pulls of
three nearby stars.  The novelist may have been a colonist (or descended
from one) on a planet in the Alnitak system, but it would still not be the
best system to occupy for any major length of time.

   On page 189, the actress who portrayed Specialist 2/C Angela
Martine(-Teller), Barbara Baldavin, also appeared in "Turnabout Intruder",
and as Baker in "Space Seed".

   Just for the record, plomeek is a thick orange Vulcan soup, not soap
(page 209). :^)

   On page 216, there is another error in regards to calling CONSTITUTION
class starships (like the ENTERPRISE) CONSTELLATION class ships, found in
the Robot ships definition.

   On page 230, the CONCORDANCE states that the stardate 4351.5 mentioned
in "Spock's Brain" is the incorrect stardate for the episode, and 5431.4 is
right; but 4351.5 was mentioned *before* 5431.4, and the first stardate is
considered the correct one.

   On page 235 in the Tau Ceti definition, it is speculated in the
CONCORDANCE that the ship which performed the famous Cochrane Deceleration
Maneuver against a Romulan starship near the Tau Ceti star system was the
ENTERPRISE, but I have strong doubts about this, as this battle probably
took place during the Romulan Wars, one hundred years before Kirk's
captaincy on the ENTERPRISE, and even before the starship was built.

   On page 249 in the definition of Vulcans, it is incorrectly stated that
Vulcans were barbaric savages five hundred years ago, in relation to the
episode "All Our Yesterdays", where it was stated numerous times that the
Vulcans were warlike five *thousand* years in the past.

   Also in the Vulcans definition on page 250, it is stated that Vulcans
were once conquered (said by McCoy to Spock in "The Conscience of the
King"), but it is not recorded in the CONCORDANCE that Spock later said
"Vulcan has not been conquered in historical memory" in The Immunity
Syndrome".

Larry Klaes

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 04:06:33 GMT
From: bsu-cs!thanatos@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Stuart R. Burke)
Subject: Solomon Kane

Could someone please tell me if a Solomon Kane book was ever printed???
I've been looking for years and have only seen an ad in an old book.  But
other than that I'm not sure.  Could someone please help???

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 19:48:25 GMT
From: c184-bp@holden.berkeley.edu (Kathy Li)
Subject: THE DREAMERY and other good Fantasy Comics

I'm posting this article here for anybody who enjoys a good fantasy read
and doesn't know about the DREAMERY comic book being put out by Eclipse.
Or about comic books in general...

Now, in case you've been in Outer Mongolia, or something, and haven't
picked up a recent comic book, and figure that "Oh, it's stupid,
one-dimensional writing, why should I bother..."  Well, the standard cliche
reply is "Comics ain't just for kids any more."  And then usually comic
fans start rattling off a list of examples.  Let it just suffice that there
*is* quality stuff out there.

And, ever since the huge success of ELFQUEST, a number of fantasy comics
have sprung up in between the cracks of all those superhero books.
Sturgeon's Law holds, of course, but there's one title I like a LOT.  It's
called THE DREAMERY.

Published bi-monthly by Eclipse, B&W.  It's an anthology book.  Donna
Barr's lead story of Stinz Lowhard and the Centaurs of the Geisenthal is
probably the best work.  Barr herself is steeped in German folk language
and lore.  And it shows.  The stories are solid, and REAL the way that good
fantasy ought to be.  Completely three-dimensional characters, completely
rounded relationships, and situations.  Highly recommended.  Just ask Tom
Galloway.  :-) Barr knows people and she knows horses, and she draws and
writes them with perfect honesty.  It's very difficult to find fantasy with
this kind of bone and muscle in it.

The current backups are being written by Diane Duane, and based upon
traditional Russian Fairy tales.  So far, Prince Ivan, Baba Yaga and
Koschei the Undying have all shown up.  Sherlock's illos go a little heavy
on the ink for my taste, but if Duane wrote it, who cares?  :-)

This is quality stuff.  And it's got very little support which is a shame.
Take a look and see if you like it.  Please.

Other good fantasy comic titles that I would recommend would be the
Arthurian Myth-based MAGE by Matt Wagner, and Dave Sim's CEREBUS.  I could
go on and on and on about these two titles, but I think I'll just stop here
and simply say "Take a look."

Kathy Li

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 00:23:00 GMT
From: tyg@caen.engin.umich.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: THE DREAMERY and other good fantasy comics

c184-bp@holden.Berkeley.EDU (Kathy Li) writes:
>The stories are solid, and REAL the way that good fantasy ought to be.
>Completely three-dimensional characters, completely rounded relationships,
>and situations.  Highly recommended.  Just ask Tom Galloway.  :-) Barr
>knows people and she knows horses, and she draws and writes them with
>perfect honesty.  It's very difficult to find fantasy with this kind of
>bone and muscle in it.

Huh? Wha? How'd I get dragged into this? Back up someone on one group and
she expects you to do it all over the place for the same comic. :-)

Anyway, once again I'll back up Kathy's recommendation of The Dreamery. A
while back, it featured an adaptation of Alice in Wonderland by Lela
Dowling, and since the real editorial staff are people who are active in sf
fandom and the like, they know where to find good writers. The Duane story
is very funny, with the latest one including an on-going joke about various
weapons like "the ginsu knife of extreme cleverness".

>Other good fantasy comic titles that I would recommend would be the
>Arthurian Myth-based MAGE by Matt Wagner, and Dave Sim's CEREBUS.

I'll mention that for those of you who may have heard of Cerebus, but have
been hesitant to jump in due to 110+ previous issues, the current issue
starts a new, mostly self-contained, book within the series. Highly
recommended.

tyg
tyg@caen.engin.umich.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 28 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 326

Today's Topics:

		    Books - Burroughs (3 msgs) & Dick &
                            Ellison (5 msgs) & Howard (4 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 88 18:37:28 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Edgar Rice Burroughs

   Here is the ERB list as promised.  Now, who's going to do the rest of
the authors that Kelly rquested?

BARSOOM: 
A Princess of Mars             1917
The Gods of Mars               1918
The Warlord of Mars            1919
Thuvia, Maid of Mars           1920
The Chessmen of Mars           1922
The Master Mind of Mars        1928 
A Fighting Man of Mars         1931 
Swords of Mars                 1936
Synthetic Men of Mars          1940
Llana of Gathol                1948
John Carter of Mars            1964

CASPAK: 
The Land that Time Forgot         1924  
The People that Time Forgot       1924 
Out of Time's Abyss               1924 

MOON:
The Moon Maid                     1926  
The Moon Men                      1926 
The Red Hawk                      1926 

AMTOR: 
Pirates of Venus                  1934
Lost on Venus                     1935  
Caron of Venus                    1939  
Escape on Venus                   1946      
The Wizard of Venus (Short Story) 1964 

PELLUCIDAR: 
At the Earth's Core          1922
Pellucidar                   1923
Tanar of Pellucidar          1929
Tarzan at the Earth's Core   1930
Back to the Stone Age        1937
Land of Terror               1944
Savage Pellucidar            1963

TARZAN:
Tarzan of the Apes               1914  
The Return of Tarzan             1915 
The Beasts of Tarzan             1916 
The Son of Tarzan                1917  
Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar    1918  
Jungle Tales of Tarzan           1919
Tarzan the Untamed               1920 
Tarzan the Terrible              1921
Tarzan and the Golden Lion       1923 
Tarzan and the Ant Men           1924  
Tarzan Lord of the Jungle        1928 
Tarzan and the Lost Empire       1929 
Tarzan at the Earth's Core       1930
Tarzan the Invicible             1931  
Tarzan Triumphant                1932 
Tarzan and the City of Gold      1933 
Tarzan and the Lion Man          1934 
Tarzan and the Leopard Men       1935
Tarzan's Quest                   1936
Tarzan and the Forbidden City    1938 
Tarzan the Magnificent           1939  
Tarzan and "the Foreign Legion"  1947 
Tarzan and the Mad Man           1964 
Tarzan and the Castaways         1965  

OTHERS: 
The Mucker                       1921 
The Girl from Hollywood          1923 
The Cave Girl                    1925 
The Bandit of Hell's Bend        1925 
The Eternal Lover                1925  
The Mad King                     1926 
The Outlaw of Torn               1927
The War Chief                    1927 
The Tarzan Twins                 1927  
The Monster Men                  1928  
Jungle Girl                      1932
Apache Devil                     1933 
Tarzan and the Tarzan Twins with Jad-val-ja the Golden Lion   1936 
The Oakdale Affair and the Rider 1937 
The Lad and the Lion             1938 
The Deputy Sheriff of Comanche County  1940 
Beyond Thirty and the Maneater   1957 
The Girl from Farris's           1959  
Beyond the Farthest Star         1964  
Pirate Blood                     1964  
The Efficiency Expert            1965  
I Am a Barbarian                 1967   

    Some notes on the above.  First, I have left out the book Tales of
Three Worlds because it contained three stories which were later printed
elsewhere.  One was a Pellucidar story which was published in Savage
Pellucidar.  The other two are more now more commonly put into one volume
called Beyond the Farthest Star.  The Tarzan and Barsoom books seem to be
in perpetual reprint mode.  The rest seems to see reprint based on the
current popularity level of ERB (i.e.  can we as a publisher cash in on
this).  All of the books are usually published as separate volumes with the
exception of the Moon stories.  Ace put out the Moon Maid as one volume,
and then The Moon Men and The Red Hawk as one volume called The Moon Men
(surprise!).  The other stuff seems to get reprinted sporadically at best.
I saw a paperback copy of the Oakdale Affair at one point, but don't recall
if it included the Rider as well.  Pirate Blood is the major component of
The Wizard of Venus (largely because the title story is a short one).
Beyond Thirty, as far as I know, has never seen a paperback edition, which
is unfortunate because from what I have read about it it sounds like an
interesting novel.  The Tarzan Twins books are children's literature
oriented.  The Girl from Farris's/Hollywood were written as vehicles for
ERB's daughters' acting carreers.
    All of the information that I have on ERB comes from first hand reading
and a great book called Edgar Rice Borroughs: Master of Adventure written
by Richard A. Lupoff.
    Well, I can't think of anything else.  If anyone has any questions,
comments, or corrections feel free to write.

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 19:15:50 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
> Beyond Thirty, as far as I know, has never seen a paperback edition,
> which is unfortunate because from what I have read about it it sounds
> like an interesting novel.

   Yes, it has. I got a copy about 1982 or 1983, except it was then titled
THE LOST CONTINENT. On the lower left hand corner of the cover was printed
"Formely titled: Beyond Thirty".

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 22:38:38 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

I assume the publication dates given in the list are for first "book"
publication, as both Tarzan_of_the_Apes and A_Princess_of_Mars were first
published (as magazine serials) in 1911 and 1912.

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 19:09:36 GMT
From: shimrod@rhialto.sgi.com (Imagician)
Subject: Philip K. Dick, Blade Runner, Do Androids..., et al.

AKIN02@TRBOUN writes:
> Daniel K. Applequist writes :
>>The novel had none of the symbolism or allegory that made the movie such
>>a masterpiece.
> I haven't seen the movie yet, but _Electric Sheep_ is one of the best
> books of Dick I've read (among the some 40 titles I've been able to get
> my hands on).  Although somewhat different from the usual 'Reality versus
> Illusion' theme of Dick, the novel's about the qualities that make people
> what they are. Beingone of the most philosophical writers of SF, Dick
> shows what *real SF* should be like. Note especially the concept of
> "kipple", the set of tragi-comic artificial animals and the social status
> associated with them.  This in no way diminishes the value of the movie,
> which, I am sure, is quite good, considering the names Ridley Scott and
> Harison Ford.  I would like to call out to Dickians, whereever they might
> be. Articles onDick

While DADOES (Do Androids...) is probably the most adaptable of Dick's
books to the adventure/suspense movie genre, I would consider it one of his
lesser works. In fact, most of the parts of the book which make it
distinctively Dick were pared out for the movie production, leaving only a
mangled version of the plot and a small quantities of atmosphere.

For example, the "alternate police department", Mercerism, Decker's wife,
mood organ, and electric goat, the way he killed the opera singer after
buying her the painting -- in fact, the pervasive mediocrity of Decker
himself -- all are omitted from the movie. The mediocrity of everything
other than the replicants is present to some degree, but hidden under
layers of special effects and suspense. The concept of "kipple" loses its
force in the movie.

Still, it's a good movie, perhaps because of this editing. The movie is
much more focused than the book, and this lack of focus is really the
book's weakness. In DADOES, there's a major transition from attention to
the replicants to attention to Mercerism (a mediocre religion, made of
chicken-wire and papier-mache). This loss of focus really ruins the
compelling force of the book, the force which keeps the pages turning.
Still, it's worth reading if you've looked at his other stuff.

In my opinion, Dick's best books are the ones in which he is most focused,
and these are generally the ones which deal with essentially mystical
experiences, and their interaction with the extremely mundane.  _Valis_,
_The Divine Invasion_, _Maze of Death_, _The Transmigration of Timothy
Archer_ all fall into this category. _Maze of Death_ could quite possibly
be made into a good movie, although the odd religious overtones might be
too much.  Rather reminiscent of Simak in some ways.  Another great book by
Dick is _A Scanner Darkly_, dealing with drugs, paranoia, and conspiracy
theories. Quite a trip, like Lem's _Memoirs Found in a Bathtub_.

A couple of readable, focused but less `great' books by Dick are _The Man
in the High Castle_ and _Time out of Joint_.

To my mind, most of Dick's earlier books are just a warmup to his later
works, and indeed many of the characters and events (which seem to come
from his own life) are reused repeatedly. I'd be interested to hear others'
opinions on Dick. I'm sure I've omitted mention of a couple of good books
in this erratic article.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 88 05:00:26 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: a boy loves his dog

williams@ai.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) says:
> "Asking me, asking me, do you know what love is?
> Sure, I know. A boy loves his dog."
> 
> The last couple of lines from Harlan Ellison's "A Boy and His Dog,"
> they can be found in his collection DEATHBIRD STORIES.

Right story, wrong collection. It's in _I Have no Mouth and I Must Scream_.
But if you can get _Deathbird Stories_, get it -- there's only a couple of
turkeys in the bunch, the rest is classic Ellison.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 16:09:29 GMT
From: homxc!h16@att.att.com (D.JACOBOWITZ)
Subject: Re: a boy loves his dog

>> The last couple of lines from Harlan Ellison's "A Boy and His Dog,"
> 
> Right story, wrong collection. It's in _I Have no Mouth and I Must
> Scream_. But if you can get _Deathbird Stories_, get it -- 

Where?

I have "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream," and that "A Boy and His Dog" is
not in it.

I have not read all the articles relating to this discussion.  Are you
saying that a few lines from the story can be found in the collection?
Again, where?

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 18:32:11 GMT
From: eboneste@bbn.com (Elizabeth Bonesteel)
Subject: Request for publication date

Can anyone tell me the original publication date of Ellison's "I Have No
Mouth And I Must Scream?"

Thanks.

Liz

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 04:23:21 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: a boy loves his dog

h16@homxc.UUCP (D.JACOBOWITZ) says:
>> > The last couple of lines from Harlan Ellison's "A Boy and His Dog,"
>> 
>> Right story, wrong collection. It's in _I Have no Mouth and I Must
>> Scream_. But if you can get _Deathbird Stories_, get it -- there's
>
> I have "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream," and that "A Boy and
> His Dog" is not in it.

Oops, goofed. It's in "The Beast that shouted Love at the heart of the
world" (gawd, what a title). Both Beast and Mouth are, well, average
Ellision, except for a couple of stories like "boy & his dog". As compared
with Deathbird Stories, which has only a couple of lousy stories in it
("bleeding stones"?), and classics like "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" and
"Pretty Maggie Moneyeyes".... but, then again, _Deathbird_ is more a "best
of" than an Original Ellison...

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 88 01:38:19 GMT
From: seanf@sco.com (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re:  One Voter Determining the Election

"Terri_A._Clingerman.WBST129"@XEROX.COM writes:
>About the one voter story - it is called "Franchise" and is written by
>Isaac Asimov.  It is in his short story collection _Earth _Is _Room
>_Enough.

Hold on!  There are *two* "one voter" stories that I know of (I'd forgotten
about Franchise).  One is by Harlan Ellison, and concerns a man who
discovers that he always casts the winning vote (and he tests this is
several election-type thingies).  Unfortunately, I forget the title of the
story ("Winning vote"?  beats me) or what book it was in (although
_Angry_Candy_ has an awfully high probability, that being the last Ellison
book I've read).

There is, of course, also the Asimov story, "Franchise," which is pure
science fiction (Ellison's is, of course, "speculative fiction").

Cheers,

Sean Eric Fagan
(408) 458-1422 
seanf@sco.UUCP 

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 22:44:00 GMT
From: render@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Solomon Kane

thanatos@bsu-cs.UUCP writes:
> Could someone please tell me if a Solomon Kane book was ever printed???

I'm pretty sure that a paperback of Robert E. Howard short stories was
printed back in the 70's which had one or two with Solomon Kane.  Try the
title MEN OF IRON or something like that.  The publisher *might* have been
either Ballantine or Daw.  Sorry I can't be more specific, but I gave away
my collected R.E.H. books back in college.

Hal Render
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
render@a.cs.uiuc.edu           (ARPA)
{seismo,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!render (USENET)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 20:23:50 GMT
From: texbell!mic!d25001@cs.utexas.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Solomon Kane

>Could someone please tell me if a Solomon Kane book was ever printed???
>I've been looking for years and have only seen an ad in an old book.  But
>other than that I'm not sure.

     It was _Red_Shadows_, first published (in hardcover) in 1968 by Donald
M.  Grant, Publisher; West Kingston, Rhode Island 02892.

     The first edition is long out of print, but I believe that Grant
brought out a second edition, which may still be in print.  The address
given above is sufficient to reach them.  Grant has published a series of
deluxe editions of Howard's works and other such things.  You will probably
find their catalog of interest even if _Red_Shadows_ is out of print.

    I think that I recall a paperback edition at some point (not from
Grant), but it is long out of print and may be harder to locate that the
hardback.

Carrington Dixon
{ convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 22:10:11 GMT
From: emoryu1!dalcs!aucs!840369k@gatech.edu (Kelly D. Kendrick)
Subject: SOLOMON KANE BOOKS

In case my mailer chewed my letter, Stuart, there are three Solomon Kane
books that I know of (I have two)

THE HAND OF KANE
SOLOMON KANE
THE MOON OF SKULLS ( I think.)

The two that I have (THOK & SK) were published in the early 60's in Hungary
by Centaur Press (?) as a part of the "Time-Lost" Series.  Your best bet
may be to haunt used and antique book stores. (I've found some of my best
stuff there.)

P.S. Anybody willing to post a canonical list of Andrew J. Offut books?
(IN PARTICULAR, Cormac Mac Art?)

Kelly Kendrick
Acadia University, N.S.
{seismo|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!840369k

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 11:39:11 GMT
From: ian@microvax-a.computer-science.liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Solomon Kane

thanatos@bsu-cs.UUCP (Stuart R. Burke) writes:
> Could someone please tell me if a Solomon Kane book was ever printed???

I have a Solomon Kane book, but it's currently at home, so I will have to
tell you what I can remember. It's a paperback book, containing three
stories, none of which I can remember the titles to. The only story I can
remember (it's at least three years since I read it) is about Kane visiting
an inn, where the landlord has committed some murder and keeps the victim's
skeleton chained in a cupboard. Another story that may or may not be in the
book, is about a man about to be hanged, who cuts his hand off and it then
crawls off and strangles the man who betrayed him. I think that the book
was published by an american publisher.

Hope that this is of some use.

Ian Finch
Dept. of Computer Science
Chadwick Tower
University of Liverpool
P.O. Box 147
Liverpool L69 3BX
Janet: ian@uk.ac.liv.cs.mva
Inter: ian%mva.cs.liv.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu

------------------------------

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*** EOOH ***
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 88 08:43:58 EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu>
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To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V13 #327
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 28 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 327

Today's Topics:

	    Films - Nightfall (9 msgs) & Light Years (2 msgs) &
                    Laserblast & They Live & Star Trek V &
                    Moon Over Parador & Batman

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 07:02:38 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>Unless I'm suffering from some massive brain hemorraging, there was a
>movie made out of Isaac Asimov's story "Nightfall" which was in theatres
>for about three days and then disappeared off the face of the earth.

Not you, but the people who were responsible for that turkey were
definitely suffering from some kind of major brain disfunction.  There's a
letter from Isaac Asimov in the latest issue of Locus about it -- seems
some indignant fans want to know how Isaac could possibly have done such a
thing.

He went on to say that he's gotten a fair amount of poison-pen "Fan mail"
about the movie, including at least one who wanted his money back.

This is another of those flicks that hits the theater, then slides down the
wall into the trash can.  It may show up in the video stores in a year or
so.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen it either.  I could be wrong in pegging it as a
bomb ... but I know I'm not.

vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 16:11:24 GMT
From: markb@maxzilla.encore.com (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>It is sort of fun to see just how low something can go. To other viewers
>who have gone through the "Nightfall experience", was it really that bad?

   Absolutely.  Tacky costumes and sets straight out of the worst Star Trek
episodes, scenery-chewing acting, and a script so cliched and incoherent
that you'd swear the writer-director is the reincarnation of Edward D.
Wood, Jr.  I walked out after 20 minutes, during a long, lovingly (though
ineptly) shot scene in which Aton's ex-wife(?!?) is being acquainted with
true darkness by having her eyes pecked out by birds.  It isn't even funny,
just bad.  See it if you must, but You Have Been Warned.

Mark Bernstein
Encore Computer
{linus,decvax,talcott}!encore!maxzilla!markb

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 21:13:41 GMT
From: pdg@hpcupt1.hp.com (Paul Gootherts)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

>You can't do this to me.  when someone gives a review like this, I HAVE to
>see the movie.  It is sort of fun to see just how low something can go.
>To other viewers who have gone through the "Nightfall experience", was it
>really that bad?

Sorry about that.  I know how you feel, so let me try to explain why it
wasn't the kind of "bad" you might want to see.

I've found that films in the "so bad they're good" category are usually bad
because of one or more of the following:

   * a stupid plot
   * gross over- or under-acting
   * cheap special effects
   * bad science

It's fun to watch movies like these with friends.  "Plan 9 From Outer
Space" comes to mind.  It has all of the above "features".

"Nightfall" was different.  It was *boring*.  That's the big difference to
me.

Paul Gootherts
Hewlett Packard Co
hpda!pdg

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 21:42:05 GMT
From: mosurm@mntgfx.mentor.com (Mosur Mohan)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

This has me totally in shock... either the movie was made WITHOUT Asimov's
nod, in which case there should be enough grist for a goodly lawsuit; or
else, Asimov *knew about and approved of* the movie, which I find terribly
hard to swallow.  Any inside info on this one?  (I still haven't seen it,
and probably will not; Nightfall was one great short story, in spite of
Asimov's own low opinion of it, and I have no intentions of spoiling that
memory!)

Mosur Mohan
Mentor Graphics
Beaverton, OR
uunet!mntgfx!mosurm

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 20:00:28 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

mosurm@mntgfx.mentor.com (Mosur Mohan) writes:
> This has me totally in shock... either the movie was made WITHOUT
> Asimov's nod, in which case there should be enough grist for a goodly
> lawsuit; or else, Asimov *knew about and approved of* the movie, which I
> find terribly hard to swallow.  Any inside info on this one?

Neither case.  Asimov's publisher sold the movie rights.  Except in unusal
cases, an author has no control about how a movie treatment is done.  At
best, a prominent author can have his name removed if he acts fast enough.
None of this is likely to confer a liability for doing a bad job.

It is very common for produciton companies to pick options or rights on a
lot of works--the vast majority of which will never be produced.  At times,
these rights are re-sold--sometimes to some pretty crummy companies.  Under
current law, I've never heard of anything that the author can do about
it--save not to sell those rights in the first place.  This makes for some
pretty fierce haggling over contracts.  A publisher wants all rights--the
author wants to sell only enough to get the work published.  It's amazing
some of the publishing contracts people will sign . . .

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 22:20:00 GMT
From: gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

I saw "Nightfall".  It was pathetic.  It was your basic "C"-movie -- there
were very few lines, just 30-40 californians in the countryside for a day
(the film was obviously filmed in exactly one day).  They saved a lot on
actors by avoiding scripts and hiring unknown non-hollywood actors.

If I remember correctly, the story "Nightfall" was a short story, so they
had to think of ways to insert an extra hour of film into what otherwise
would be a ten-minute movie.

Don Gillies
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield
Urbana, Ill 61801      
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu
UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 88 23:30:47 GMT
From: garret@chinet.chi.il.us (Garret Toomey)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie

Yes, I was stupid enough to go see this.  First day.  Early showing.

"Hot damn", I think to myself, "this should be good."

But it turns out to be this amatuer-ish crap starring some forgotten tv
actor plus a bunch of the Arizona State University drama-school drop-outs
(well, maybe freshmen) running around in the still-very-incomplete-crazed-
architect's-fantasy Arco-Santi out in the desert.

Full of flowing robes, bad editing, changed plotlines involving crystals,
observing planets by SOUND !!!, alternative styles of living and new-age
religion.

Oh yeah, dancers too.  Bad dancers. And something about a snake woman.

Pathetic movie.   Stay away from this sucker.

Garret 

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 07:05:51 GMT
From: vanpelt@unisv.sv.unisys.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

uunet!mntgfx!mosurm writes:
>This has me totally in shock... either the movie was made WITHOUT Asimov's
>nod, in which case there should be enough grist for a goodly lawsuit; or
>else, Asimov *knew about and approved of* the movie, which I find terribly
>hard to swallow.  Any inside info on this one?

Inside info follows, consisting of information in a letter that Isaac
Asimov wrote to "Locus":

Doubleday sold the movie rights to "Nightfall" to a fly-by-night outfit of
some kind who made the movie on a very low budget.  Asimov said they had
every right to do so (presumably because of Asimov's contract with them),
but the he didn't even know about it until after it came out and people
started writing him letters demanding their money back.  (Now, that's tacky
even for fringefans...:-) 

vanpelt@sv.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 88 22:55:40 GMT
From: bucsb!boreas@buita.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: Nightfall movie?

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>Unless I'm suffering from some massive brain hemorraging, there was a
>movie made out of Isaac Asimov's story "Nightfall" which was in theatres
>for about three days and then disappeared off the face of the earth.

Was this "Light Years"??  I saw a preview of it about a year ago, at an
animation festival.  Looked pretty awful; I was wondering if it ever came
out, although I doubt I'd have gone to see it.  (I mean, geez, if they
couldn't even make the preview look decent. . . . :-)

Michael Justice
BITNet: ccmaj@buacca
ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:...!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 00:02:06 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Light Years (was Re: Nightfall movie?)

>Was this "Light Years"??  I saw a preview of it about a year ago, at an
>animation festival.  Looked pretty awful; I was wondering if it ever came
>out, although I doubt I'd have gone to see it.  (I mean, geez, if they
>couldn't even make the preview look decent. . . . :-)

No, _Light Years_ had nothing to do with _Nightfall_ (about which much has
been posted.) _Light Years_ wasn't that bad (although I don't know how much
Asimov had to do with it.) Call it light entertainment, somewhat overdone.

(With some patches of utterly null dialogue. Protagonist: "You mean you
are..."  Critter: "Yes... the Deformed." (Oh, is that why you have an arm
growing out of your forehead?))

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 88 18:21:04 GMT
From: pcp2g@bessel.acc.virginia.edu (Philip C. Plait)
Subject: Re: Light Years (was Re: Nightfall movie?)
  
ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>> Was this "Light Years"??  I saw a preview of it about a year ago, at an
>>animation festival.  Looked pretty awful; I was wondering if it ever came
>>out, although I doubt I'd have gone to see it.  (I mean, geez, if they
>>couldn't even make the preview look decent. . . . :-)
>
>No, _Light Years_ had nothing to do with _Nightfall_ (about which much has
>been posted.) _Light Years_ wasn't that bad (although I don't know how
>much Asimov had to do with it.) Call it light entertainment, somewhat
>overdone.
{some unnecessary stuff deleted}

I was wandering through a Kroger's the other day and happened to see "Light
Years" in the videotape section. Laughing, because this was just after
people had started to talk about it here, I looked at it, and it said
something like "See Isaac Asimov's first production as a screenwriter."
(This is not a direct quote--the important point is that IA is listed as
the screenwriter).

Now, the question is: what does a screenwriter do? Why is that different
from just being the author of the script?

If I ever see the movie in Beta format, I'll take a look at it--the box
said the director is the same dude that did "Fantastic Planet", a movie
that fascinated me. The imagery was amazing.

Phil Plait
UVa Dept. of Astronomy      
PCP2G@bessel.acc.virginia.EDU
PCP2G@Virginia

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 88 18:20:01 GMT
From: bouma@cs.purdue.edu (William J. Bouma)
Subject: Laserblast (was Re: War Of The Worlds)

smryan@garth.UUCP (Steven Ryan) writes:
>Speaking of great tv and great movies, Laserblast has finally made it to
>commerical tv. For those of you who missed it in the theatres, make sure
>to watch it, even if it doesn't come on till 3AM.
>
>Trust me. You'll never forget this movie.

Oh, but you will try and try and try!

I made just the mistake you suggest a few months ago. I stayed up late to
watch this movie because the preview enticed me. It was a big mistake!  The
basic premise is a guy running around in a crazed state blowing everything
up with this laser he found in the desert. Do yourself a favor and go to
sleep.

Bill
bouma@cs.purdue.edu
...!purdue!bouma 

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 14:48:20 GMT
From: leeper@mtgzz.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: THEY LIVE

				 THEY LIVE
		      A film review by Mark R. Leeper

	  Capsule review:  Science fiction films catch up to some
     of the lighter stuff being written in the 1960s.  John
     Carpenter's adaptation of a famous story drags a lot, even at
     93 minutes.  This is due to Carpenter using spare time to add
     action rather than to expand much on the original plot.
     Still, there is a story there and one that is not like other
     action films being made right now and Carpenter gets points
     for that.  Rating: +2.

     These days you have two kinds of filmmakers.  You have your original
filmmakers who tell new stories and make new films.  Then you have
filmmakers who recombine elements of successful movies.  This kind
sprinkles science fiction ideas into a police action film and gets
something like ALIEN NATION or DEEP SPACE.  One filmmaker you can usually
depend on being mostly original is John Carpenter.  He may add some
prefabricated filler but at least his films are stories you have not seen
on film before.  This time around Carpenter has adapted a comic book
version of the popular science fiction story "Eight O'Clock in the Morning"
by Ray Nelson, beefed up its political message, added a lot of not very
imaginative padding, and turned a fast-paced story into a snail's-paced
93-minute movie.

     The story is that of John Nada (called George Nada in the short
story), who gets a pair of sunglasses that allows him to see what is REALLY
going on.  (In the short story Nada is awakened too far from an hypnotic
state.)  And what is going on?  We are all being shepherded by aliens who
to most people pass for human.  All our literature and advertising and
television gives us nothing but subliminal messages like "Buy," "Obey,"
"Stay asleep," "No imagination," "Marry and reproduce," and "No independent
thought."  With the sunglasses the world is black and white but you can see
what is really going on.  (Hmmmm!  Could this be a comment on
colorization?)

     The real problem with THEY LIVE is that Carpenter has taken his five-
page story and added little to it but padding.  Most of the padding is
action scenes which undiscerning audiences have come to accept as a
substitute for plot.  If the filmmaker has people shooting each other,
breaking windows, having fist fights, and in general keeping images
flicking on the screen, audiences do not care that the story is stopped
stock still and is not advancing one whit.  This film is packed with very
long stretches of mindless action, including a seemingly endless fist
fight.  And mindlessness in the media is very apropos for the plot of THEY
LIVE, though at one point in the film Carpenter explicitly lists himself
and George Romero as being part of the solution rather than part of the
problem.

     In spite of the fact that there was only about thirty minutes worth of
story here, it is a good story and for its sake I would rate this a +2 on
the -4 to +4 scale.

Sources of "Eight O'Clock in the Morning" by Ray Nelson:
MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, November, 1963
BEST OF THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION #13, ed. by 
   Avram Davidson
THE OTHERS, ed. by Terry Carr
TALES OF TERROR FROM OUTER SPACE, ed. by R. Chetwynd-Hayes
YEAR'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION #9, ed. by Judith Merril

Mark R. Leeper
att!mtgzz!leeper
leeper%mtgzz@att.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 08:47:04 GMT
From: siedelbe@stout.ucar.edu (Mike Siedelberg)
Subject: Star Trek V grapevine

  I pass this on as it was given to me.

   According to a source close to Ralph Winters, executive producer of Star
Trek V, they love the dailies and the production is going well.  They
stunmbled on one set and lost a couple of days, but are working on catching
up.

   They hope to have a lobby card in the theaters by Christmas.

  That's it.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 88 18:18:19 GMT
From: jagardner@watmath.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Double Star vs. Moon over Parador

All the pre-movie descriptions of Moon Over Parador convinced me that it
was indeed an uncredited rip-off of Double Star.  I refrained from posting
this to the net because I figured it was legally libel if I turned out to
be wrong.

Then, I saw an interview with Paul Mazursky, the director of Moon over
Parador.  He said his film was inspired by a film called "The Great
Dictator" (not Chaplin's) made in the late 40's.  Since this predates
Double Star, if anyone was secretly cribbing, it must have been Heinlein.

And while we're at it, ALL of these works owe at least a tip of the hat to
"The Prisoner of Zenda", "The Prince and the Pauper", and others.  It's a
theme that has been lurking in our mythology for quite some time.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 88 19:18:07 GMT
From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Cast change for Batman

I'm forwarding this for a friend who does not have net access..

Gathered from another SF&F club, Sean Young, as mentioned in the rec.movies
area, was indeed supposed to appear in the upcoming Batman movie with
Micheal Keaton.  Ms. Young, however, is reported to have fractured a collar
bone, and being unable to continue the filming, she has been "replaced" by
Kim Basinger.  (Hardly a competent replacement, in my humble opinion :).

Victor O'Rear
P.O. Box 3972
La Mesa
California  92044
(619) 588-7423
mil : crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA
{hplabs!hp-sdd, cbosgd, ucsd, nosc.mil}!crash!victoro        |

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 28 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 328

Today's Topics:

		 Miscellaneous - SF Predictions (3 msgs) &
                                 Conventions (4 msgs) & 
                                 Hugos (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 88 15:26:03 GMT
From: dpr@siesoft (dpr)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

Concerning the waterbed invention credited to Heinlein in _Oath of Fealty_,
and the reference to them in _Stranger in a Strange Land_:

In Heinleins' _Expanding Universe_, a collection of essays and short
stories, the explanation of how he came to think of the water bed is given.
If I recall correctly, it occured in the thirties. He had a bad back, and
often used to float in a swimming pool late at night to try to ease the
pain. The idea grew out of that.  A manufacturer took up the idea, and
eventually sent one to Heinlein. Thats all he got out of it. (Makes you
wonder if science fiction pays :-) ).

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 21:13:31 GMT
From: thaler@speedy.cs.wisc.edu (Maurice Thaler)
Subject: Re: Need SF Predictions

How about the predictions about politics and ecological overload in John
Brunner's "The Sheep Look Up" and "Stand On Zanzibar".

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 88 03:27:49 GMT
From: c60a-3dx@web-3e.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: SF "predictions"

milne@ICS.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
>> For example, in 1901, H. G. Welles wrote a book entitled "Anticipations
>> of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific Progress upon Human Life
>> and Thought.", in which he predicted the automobile and the motor age.
>
>By 1901, the inspiration must have been all around him.  Various types of
>motor tricycles and horseless carts, some with steam engines, were being
>played with, and development was obviously leading to more useful things.
>If natural gas and the heat plug (not yet our spark plug) had not been
>invented by then, they were very soon to follow.  Same story for the first
>carburetors (inspired by a squeeze-bulb scent spray, as I understand.)

Well, yes, the AUTOMOBILE was there, but suburbs, highways, freeways, and
traffic jams were not.

>>In 1941, Robert Heinlein (writing under the name Anson MacDonald) wrote
>>"Solution Unsatisfactory", in which he predicts the nuclear weapon, the
>>American monopoly of that weapon, and the nuclear arms race.
>
>Are you suggesting there is now an American monopoly of nuclear weapons?

Of course I'm not suggesting that!  But there once was an American monopoly
on nuclear weapons, and back then, people were complacent enough to believe
that the monopoly would last quite a long while, so America would be able
to keep world peace.  But in 1948, the Soviets got their own bomb, and out
went any notion of a Pax Americana.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 88 19:02:13 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Brit TV Convention

This information is published for the benefit of those who require this
information.  I am not connected with Brit. TV INC in any way.

ATTENTION: BRIT TV ENTHUSIAST !   Coming May 26-28 1989

BRIT. TV Entertainment presents: TELLY CON II The British TV Convention/
Seminar in Chicago, Ill.  Location: TBA.  Guests at this time include

Terry Nation, writer/creator of Blakes 7, Avengers, Saint, Persuaders;

Dave Rogers, author of Avengers, Avengers ANEW, and ITV Encyclopedia of
T.V. Adventure;

John Freeman, editor of Dr. Who Magazine , 

and more Guests to be announced.

For more information please write:

BRIT. TV Entertainment
P.O. Box 148335
Chicago, Illinois,  60614-8335

or call:
	
(312)-935-7413 
	
Registration limited to 500 persons.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 88 23:49:31 GMT
From: cloud9!jjmhome!lmann@encore.encore.com (Laurie Mann)
Subject: Readercon 2

Readercon 2 was held this weekend up in Lowell, MA.  It was a nice con,
with accessible pros and lots (250+) readers.  Pro attendees included GoH
Chip Delaney, James Morrow, Barry Longyear, Ellen Kushner, Martha Soukup,
David Hartwell, and Lawrence Watt-Evans.  Net attendees included Evelyn and
Mark Leeper, Ron Rizzo, and Morris Keesan.  Panels included "Sox Win Sixth
Straight World Series: The Future of Boston," "Bookaholics Anonymous," "Is
Chip Delany the Wood Allen of SF," "Elfland Uber Alles: Hidden Racism in
Fantasy and SF," "Unfortunately Still Too Sensitive a Topic for a Silly
Titile: Alternate Sexual Lifestyles in F & SF," "The Third Kirk Poland
Memorial Bad Science Fiction and Fantasy Prose Competition," "Lifestyles of
the Poor and Obscure," and "You've Crossed the Reality Border: Anything to
Declare?"

The next Readercon will be in April 1990, probably at the Lowell Hilton.

Laurie Mann
Stratus, M22PUB
55 Fairbanks Blvd
Marlboro, MA  01752  
harvard!m2c!jjmhome!lmann
encore!jjmhome!lmann
harvard!anvil!es!Laurie_Mann

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 18:55:51 GMT
From: mberkman@bbn.com (Melinda Berkman, Empress of the Galaxy)
Subject: Lunacon???

Is there anyone out there who has a current address for Lunacon?  I have
been using last year's address to try to get information about huckster's
room space and the art show, to no avail.  I assume that either my letters
have been lost in the mail or the relevant people are too busy to answer
mail from a newbie, but I'd like to find out which is the case.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 05:19:18 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Bayfilk 5

			   ***** BAYFILK 5 *****

			      March 3-5, 1989
				  at the
			Oakland Airport Hyatt Hotel
			    Oakland, California

That's right!  Bayfilk comes every year! And you don't want to miss the
three days of concerts, panels, and non-stop music!

Guest of Honor:  Joe Haldeman

Listener Guest of Honor:  Ann Sharp

Special Guests:  Buck and Juanita Coulson

For memberships or more information,  write or call:

FIREBIRD ARTS AND MUSIC, INC.
P.O.Box 453
El Cerrito, CA 94530
(415) 528-3172

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 16:55:12 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: The Hugo Awards [Re: The Principle of Least Malice]

>>Considering how badly they ran the actual con, I strongly believe
>>stupidity, naivete, ignorance >AND< laziness over malice.
>
>...let me just say that the people who organized the Hugo awards were not
>part of the general New Orleans committee.  They live several states away,
>ran the Hugos pretty much as an autonomous thing, and were themselves
>screwed over by the committee in some things

I'll second this. In my various dealings with Nolacon, the Hugo
administration folks (headed by Susan Satterfeld) was the only group that
seemed to have their act together (excluding the floating concom members
who did what they could with what was left...). Some stuff was not under
control -- getting stuff mailed, getting ballots back from the concom,
getting information passed around, and the ceremony itself. But the stuff
they did keep control over worked. And they returned phone calls. Amazing.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 22:47:21 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Hugoes there?

3RLRB2U@CMUVM.BITNET (Donalee Flaningam) writes:
>I do not know what the process is for nominating and voting for Hugo
>awards.

Okay.  It goes like this:

Every year, usually around Labor Day weekend, a convocation of science
fiction and fantasy writers, editors, fans, and hangers-on is held.  This
is called the "World Science Fiction Convention," or "WorldCon."

There are essentially two ways to be involved in the Hugo selection
process.  The first is to be a "supporting member" of the convention.  This
costs, usually, in the neighborhood of five to twenty dollars, and
purchases you all the neat publications of the convention (progress
reports, program book, etc.) and the right to participate in Hugo
selection.

The second is to be an "attending member," or "full member."  Full members
are permitted to attend convention activities -- panels, masquerade,
movies, games, parties, banquets, etc.  In other words, it's an invitation
to spend a whole bunch more money:*)

Which is right for you?  If there's even a slight chance of you attending
the convention, purchase an attending membership -- the cost of converting
generally goes up steeply as C-time grows nigh.

Anyway.

To participate *fully* in the process, buy your membership *AT*LEAST* six
months before the convention.  Sometime in spring, the Nominating Ballots
are mailed out to all Attending and Supporting Members.

The Nominating Ballot is simply a piece of paper with the categories listed
on it.  You may nominate several works in each category -- I think the
limit is either three or five.

Categories include Novel, Novella, Novellette, Short Story, Dramatic
Presentation, Professional Editor, Professional Artist, Fan Artist, Fan
Writer, Fanzine, and a few others I'm not remembering offhand.  You may
nominate any work that was published in the *PREVIOUS* year.  (In the case
of Artist or Writer, that's difficult to adjudicate, of course.)

The Nominating Ballots received by the committee before some deadline are
counted.  The five works in each category which receive the most
nominations are placed on the Final Ballot, along with "No Award."

Now things get strange, for the Hugoes are voted on by the "Australian
System."  It's quite sensible, but requires a bit of attention.

Let's say the Novel section of this year's ballot looked like this:
   __ APRIL SHOWERS, by Ray Bradbury
   __ ZANZIBAR'S CHILDREN, by Harlan Ellison
   __ DEAD PEOPLE, by William Gibson
   __ IT'S NOT YOUR PLANET, ANYWAY, by Michael Moorcock
   __ UNSTOPPABLE SEQUELS OF AMBER, by Roger Zelazny
   __ No Award

(Note that they're alphabetical by *author*)

Now, suppose that you think the Ellison was far and away the best of the
bunch.  You put a "1" in the slot next to the Ellison.

Next, you ask yourself "How would I vote if the Ellison were not on the
ballot?  I'd vote for the Zelazny."  So you put a "2" in front of the
Zelazny.  "How would I vote if Ellison and Zelazny were both removed?  I'd
vote for Moorcock."  Put a "3" in front of the Moorcock.  "If you take away
Moorcock, too, I'd vote for the Gibson."  A "4" next to the Gibson.  "Hmm.
That leaves the Bradbury.  I *hate* that morbid crap he writes.  I'd rather
see no award given."  So you put a "5" next to No Award and a "6" next to
the Bradbury.
 
So the novel section of your ballot looks like this:

   _6_ APRIL SHOWERS, by Ray Bradbury
   _1_ ZANZIBAR'S CHILDREN, by Harlan Ellison
   _4_ DEAD PEOPLE, by William Gibson
   _3_ IT'S NOT YOUR PLANET, ANYWAY, by Michael Moorcock
   _2_ UNSTOPPABLE SEQUELS OF AMBER, by Roger Zelazny
   _5_ No Award

Now, when the deadline for voting arrives, the committee (I'll get to them
later) takes all the eligible ballots and, effectively, sorts them into
piles depending on which work was marked as #1.  So your ballot goes into
the Ellison pile.
 
Now, let's imagine that there were two hundred ballots.  They wind up like
this:
 
Bradbury  Ellison  Gibson  Moorcock  Zelazny  NoAward
   67       19       79      12        20        3

Gibson has the lead, but nobody has a clear majority.  So they take the
ballots from the pile with least ballots -- the "No Award" pile -- and
redistribute them by their "2" markings:
 
Bradbury  Ellison  Gibson  Moorcock  Zelazny
   69       19       80      12        20

Still no majority.  So we take the *next* smallest pile -- Moorcock's --
and distribute *it* among the others, by *their* #2 vote:

Bradbury  Ellison  Gibson  Zelazny
   77       20       82      21

Now we take the Ellison pile and redistribute *it*.  This time, we have to
use a #3 choice, since one of the ballots in the Ellison pile got there
through #2 distribution...

Bradbury  Gibson  Zelazny
   78      101      21

and now Gibson has a majority, more than 50% of the vote.

This system has the advantage of seeming to come up with the best
compromise.  In that last round, it was as if the Ellison people were told,
"Sorry -- your candidate clearly isn't going to make it, either.  Who would
you vote for next?"  Thus, everyone participates in making the final
decision, and you don't get a situation where a split vote between two
favorites accidentally throws the election to a distant third choice (as
happened with Ed Meechum in Arizona).

And *THAT* is how the Hugo is nominated and voted for.

We pause now for breath...
 
...thank you.  What was your next question?  Oh, yes.

>Would someone please enlighten me?

My goodness, you have come to the right place.  Sit down with your legs
crossed.  Hands on your knees.  Good.  Now give me all your money and chant
"Blattideus deus est," for a half hour, six times a day.  You will achieve
enlightenment -- I guarantee it.

>Why are they called Hugos?  

They're called that after Hugo Gernsback, one of several people
occasionally referred to as "the father of Science Fiction."  Gernsback's
claim to the title is fairly solid; he (a) coined the term "science
fiction" in its current sense, although he originally wanted to call it
"scientifiction"; (b) started, published, and edited the first science
fiction magazine, AMAZING STORIES, which is still published today after 62
years; (c) effectively invented both SF fandom -- through his magazine's
letter column -- and *organized* SF fandom -- by founding the "SF League"
in New York.

The proper name of the award is the "Science fiction Achievement Award,"
but nobody ever *calls* 'em that.

>Who selects "the committee"?  

Slightly complicated, but not as bad as the first question.  The members of
each year's convention vote on where the convention will be held two years
later.  (Or is it three these days...?)  The selection is made from
(usually) two to four sites, each of which has a committee geared up to run
a WorldCon.  There are rules that govern where conventions may be held in
any given year, which prevents the local residents of this year's Con site
from forcing it to the same site two years hence.

The Convention Committee, in turn, appoints a Committee in charge of
Awards.

That wasn't so bad...

>Who votes?  

Any Supporting or Attending Member of the convention *may* vote.  Not all
do, by a long sight.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 88 04:26:25 GMT
From: whh@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: BALLOT STUFFING

3C257F7@CMUVM.BITNET ("Kim Dyer") writes:
> There has been some discussion of ballot stuffing in the Hugos in the
> last few issues.  I would like to voice my opinion, since I ran the
> balloting for a much smaller award for two years running.  What I saw
> disgusted me enough to drop it entirely.  . . .  If I had received 18
> ballots all in a single envelope, I would have HAD to have considered an
> attempt at ballot stuffing. Not even very creative ballot stuffing at
> that.  I may have had to count them (if done properly) but I sure could
> propose a rule change to avoid a recurrance.

What would you have thought if they all had legitimate names that had been
members of the convention regularly for several (i.e.-- >10) years?

>I know it's frustrating when something you like does not win - and
>accusations always fly.  I've seen things win due to things unrelated to
>the quality of the work (a personal trauma in the life of the creator, for
>example has been known to sway votes away from a clearly better piece of
>work.)  That's reality folks.  If you think you can do it better,
>volunteer to count the votes.  It will change your opinion - PRONTO.

I am frustrated because I've come across a story that suggests neglect and
indifference on the part of the tabulators.  If fraud is suspected, then a
complaint about fraud should be made--not a claim of 'lack of time.'  If
the tabulators believed the ballots to be bogus--and given the number of
people that actually *vote* the cheapest method would be to vote "for
them"--and no one would be the wiser--a check could be made with those
people whose names are on the ballots.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
415-645-7708
{att,bellcore,sun,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!pbhya!whh   

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 28 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 329

Today's Topics:

	       Books-  Cherryh (2 msgs) & Foster (2 msgs) &
                       Moorcock & Pratchett (6 msgs) & Zelazny

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 22:58:43 GMT
From: everett@hpcvlx.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: _Cyteen_, C.J. Cherryh

I must agree that Cyteen is a wonderful book (I bought the original
hardcover and the price was DEFINITELY worth it.

HOWEVER....for those people who have NOT read the book, it might have been
appropriate to put a spoiler warning on your review, as you give away
several important plot developments.

Other than that, a very nice review.  :-)

Everett Kaser
!hplabs!hp-pcd!everett

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 19:54:09 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: _Cyteen_, C.J. Cherryh

elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
> Cyteen: A review
> As for the writing, it's Cherryh's usual style, with all its advantages
> and disadvantages. Cherryh tends to wander between an omniscient
> 3rd-person narrator and a single personal 3rd-person narrator. She
> usually ends up painting a pretty good picture of the person whose
> viewpoint she's writing from, but the supporting cast sometimes come out
> in various shades of grey.  In Cyteen she breaks somewhat from that
> style, occasionally shifting into the viewpoint of some of her peripheral
> characters. Still, most of it is told from the viewpoint of the main
> character, Ariane Emory, and the primary secondary character, Justin
> Warrick, both Parental Replicants: perfectly cloned genetic copies of
> their parents, brilliant researchers with serious personality problems.
> Her characterization holds up quite well considering the immense size of
> the book, except for at the very end where her uncle Denys acts extremely
> out of character -- but more on that later.
>
>     At which point we get to Denys, and where he acts out of character:
> At the end of the book, he tries to kill her.  It's not TOO unexpected...
> Denys, intentionally or unintentionally, came perilously close to
> sabotaging the project by being too soft on little Ari. Still, he's a
> rather sedentary person, very intellectual, very warped, and it's simply
> out of character for him to order a direct assasination of the girl who
> lived with him for 5 years. Denys struck me as the sort of person who'd
> put arsenic in your porridge, or flood your room with poison gas, not the
> kind who'd resort to weapons... weapons are so... unsubtle.

I'll disagree with your comments on Denys in an otherwise excellent review
of CYTEEN.  I think the book can be read (along with about 4 other levels)
on the level of a psychological murder mystery.  Denys trying to kill Ari
at the end is *the* important clue to 'what really happened in that room'.
Only Cherryh leaves the reader to figure it out rather than telling you
outright.

I'll give a couple of clues supporting what I think happened and why Denys
decided, quite late in the game, that Ari (and Justin) needed to die.  Then
let's get into a fun, free-for-all debate as to *why* he did what he did.

CLUE 1.  Remember Guirard was a special, and couldn't legally be
mind-probed; Denys isn't and can be.

CLUE 2.  Remember that while Jordan (Justin's father) is a special and
can't legally be mind-probed, and can't even volunteer to give evidence in
his own behalf under probe, he *can* physically be probed, and evidently
without damage to himself if it's done carefully.  He could volunteer to
have Ari mind-probe him, and *she would know* whatever happened, or at
least his knowledge of whatever happened.

CLUE 3.  Remember that Guirard has just died, Jordan, on the heels of this
event, has publically declared his innocence for the first time in 20
years, and Ari and Justin are on their way to see Jordan.  This give you
any ideas?

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 06:27:08 GMT
From: ysboston@cs.utexas.edu (Yee-Sing Tsai)
Subject: Re: Alan Dean Foster Fans

I also have enjoyed books by Alan Dean Foster.  I am referring in
particular to the Phillip Lynx (Flinx) and his mini-drag Pip series.  For
some reason, I read the series and loved it although it's not in my usual
genre.  Foster write about an alternate world and does not get a technical
as some of the other SF/F writers...such as Heinlein, Poul Anderson,
Asimov, et. al.  I tend to clump Foster with Andre Norton and Ursula Le
Guin in the technicality of their stories and the general content, not
meaning of course that they write the same stuff.  Just that, to me, they
fit a "category".  I have enjoyed the stuff I have read from Foster,
Norton, and Le Guin.  What I have read has caused me to put them in the
non-tech storyteller side.....but then I haven't read every book by each of
these authors....

Any other opinions out there?  Concurrences?  8-)

Yee-Sing Tsai
2222 Rio Grande #D206
Austin, TX  78705
(512)471-1082
ystsai@grumpy.cc.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 21:00:44 GMT
From: rti!xyzzy!throopw@mcnc.mcnc.org (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Alan Dean Foster Fans

dmc@ntcsd1.UUCP (David Clemens)
>     By the way, does anyone else think that he is unique in being able to
> write a book from a movie script and have the book be better than the
> movie while still following the storyline of the movie? The best example
> of this is "The Last Starfighter" which follows the movie almost exactly
> while coming across as more realistic and less hokey.

This isn't very unique.  Consider "Fantastic Voyage".  Asimov isn't even
all that good a novelist, and the book was yards better than the movie it
was adapted from.  The reasons for this probably relate to various
limitations in the film medium than to the skill of the adaptor.  Films
have a time limit, a special effects budget, and swarms and swarms of movie
industry middle management geeks running around screwing things up.  The
book is a much more direct presentation of the writer's craft than the
movie, and there is less to go wrong.

Granted, Foster is good at what he does.  But I'd have to say he hasn't
really attempted anything terribly innovative, difficult, or original as
far as I know.  I read much of what he writes, but what I expect is not
"great stuff", but a middle-of-the-road vanilla light read.  For this, he
doesn't disappoint.  Much.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 88 18:35:28 GMT
From: homxc!11366ns@att.att.com (N.SAUER)
Subject: Micheal Moorcock

     Kelly Kendrick requested this list, but I am posting in case other
people want it as well.  An Edgar Rice Burroughs list will be posted in a
seperate article.
     Before I get into the list of Moorcock's works I would like to thank
Jim Boughton and Paul A. Ebersman for their help on this list.  It wouldn't
be anywhere near as complete without them.  Anyway, here is the list with
comments to follow.

THE ELRIC SAGA:                         
Elric of Melnibone                     British Titles:
The Sailor on the Seas of Fate         The Dreaming City    
The Weird of the White Wolf            The Singing Citadel   
The Vanishing Tower                    The Sleeping Sorceress 
The Bane of the Black Sword            The Stealer of Souls 
Stormbringer
Elric at the End of Time (Short Story)
The Last Enchantment (Short Story)  

ERIKOSE: 
The Eternal Champion
The Silver Warriors (Pheonix in Obsidian) 
Swords of Heaven, Flowers of Hell (Graphic Novel)  
The Dragon in the Sword

HAWKMOON: 
The Runestaff:
The Jewel in the Skull
The Mad God's Amulet
The Sword of the Dawn  
The Runestaff

Count Brass:
Count Brass
The Champion of Garatharm
The Quest for Tanelorn

A WARRIOR OF MARS:
The City of the Beast (Warriors of Mars)
Lord of the Spiders (Blades of Mars)
The Master of the Pit (Barbarians of Mars)

CORUM:   
The Book of Swords:
The Knight of Swords 
The Queen of Swords 
The King of Swords 

The Chronicles of Corum:
The Bull and the Spear 
The Oak and the Ram 
The Sword and the Stallion 

THE NOMAD OF TIME: 
The Warlords of the Air
The Land Leviathan 
The Steel Czar 

THE DANCERS AT THE END OF TIME: 
An Alien Heat 
The Hollow Lands 
The End of all Songs 
Legends from the End of Time
A Messiah at the End of Time (The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming) 

JERRY CORNELIUS: 
The Final Programme
A Cure for Cancer
The English Assassin
The Condition of Muzak
The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius
The Entropy Tango
The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th Century
The Alchemist's Question

MAXIM ARTUROVICH:
Byzantium Endures
The Laughter of Carthage

RITTER VON BEK: 
The War Hound and the World's Pain  
The City in the Autumn Stars

JERRY CORNELL:
The Chinese Agent (Somewhere in the Night)
The Printer's Devil
The Russian Intelligence

KARL GLOGAUER:
Behold the Man
Breakfast in the Ruins 

OTHERS:
Gloriana 
The Ice Schooner
The Brothel in Rosenstrasse
Sojan the Swordsman (Short Story) 
The Opium General  
The Blood Red Game (The Sundered Worlds)
The Rituals of Infinity (The Wrecks of Time)
The Golden Barge
The Black Corridor 
The Shores of Death (The Twilight Man)  
The Winds of Limbo (The Fireclown)
The Time Dwellers (Collection) 
Moorcock's Book of Martyrs (Dying for Tommorrow) (Collection)
My Experiences in the Third World War (Collection)  
The Time of the Hawklords (by Michael Butterworth based on MM)
Queens of Deliria (by Michael Butterworth based on MM)
Ledge of Darkness (by Micheal Butterworth based on MM) 

     First, I would like to comment on the lack of copywrite dates.
Moorcock is one of those authors who perpetually rewrites his works.  This
makes it difficult to assign a copyright date to any of his material as it
is constantly changing with each reissue.  I have separated the components
of Elric at the End of Time and The Opium General collections into their
separate pieces.  I would have done the same for the other two collections,
but I don't have the Time Dwellers yet and haven't had a chance to read
Moorcock's book of Martyrs.  Finally, does anyone know if the Rituals of
Infinity takes place in Corum's world(s)?  From the back cover blurb it
sure sounds like it does.
     If anyone has any comments, questions or corrections feel free to
e-mail.

Nick Sauer

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 10:58:31 GMT
From: kers@otter.hpl.hp.com (Christopher Dollin)
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

Pratchett books: (rats, that name doesn't look right!)

The Colour of Magic
The Light Fantastic
Equal Rites
Mort

(These four are in paperback - at least in Britain)

Sorcery

(Seen in hardback by myself)

Wyrd Sisters

(Seen in hardback by my wife) 

(I believe "Pyramids" is being worked on now).

"Mort" is one of the few books that had me laughing out loud.

"Strata" and "The Dark Side of the Sun" are *not* Discworld novels, but
contain things that look like their evolutionary ancestors.

Regards, 
Kers

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 09:08:52 GMT
From: sow@praxis.co.uk (Stuart Williams)
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

The list of the Terry Pratchett Disc World books as I know it is

The Colour of Magic
The Light Fantastic
Equal Rites
Mort (just out in paperback in Britain)
Wyrd Sisters (just out in HardBack)

I noticed that the book list inside the Wyrd Sisters also mentions a book
called Pyramids, which is due in 1st Quarter 89.

The first two books are most enjoyable, definitely as good as Douglas
Adams's work, Equal Rites didnt seem half so good, but maybe because I was
expecting too much. Mort I have just finished, and that is a lot better
than Equal Rites...well it made me laugh anyway!

Stuart Williams
Praxis Systems plc
20 Manvers St,                 
Bath, Britain                 
sow@praxis.co.uk                           
sow%praxis.uucp@ukc.ac.uk                 

------------------------------

From: ian@microvax-a.computer-science.liverpool.ac.uk
Date: 22 Nov 88 15:44:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett

Christopher Dollin writes:
>"Strata" and "The Dark Side of the Sun" are *not* Discworld novels, but
>contain things that look like their evolutionary ancestors.

I personally don't find ``Strata'' or ``The Dark Side of the Sun'' as good
as the Discworld novels. Strata has a nice idea at its core (I won't say
more in case I spoil it for others), but there isn't as much humour as in
the Discworld novels, and without this, the two-dimensional characters
rather fall flat (ouch!). This problem is heightened by Strata beginning
similarly to Ringworld (by Larry Niven). Thus you notice that all the
interplay between the characters, and the clashes between alien cultures
which occur in Niven's works are absent from this novel. The other problem
I had was that a lot of the ideas were similar to those from a novel ``King
Dragon'' by (I think) Andrew Offut.

Having said that, I think that the Discworld novels are among the funniest
I have ever read.

Ian Finch
Dept. of Computer Science
Chadwick Tower
University of Liverpool
P.O. Box 147
Liverpool
L69 3BX
Janet: ian@uk.ac.liv.cs.mva
Inter: ian%mva.cs.liv.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu
UUCP : ...!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!ian      

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 10:42:27 GMT
From: mph@praxis.co.uk (Martin Hanley)
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>> The sixth Discworld novel, Wyrd Sisters, by Terry Pratchett, has
>> just been released.
>
>What? What? SIX??

In order:
   The Colour Of Magic
   The Light Fantastic
   Equal Rites
   Mort
   Sourcery
   Wyrd Sisters

"Also by the same author:"
   Strata
   The Dark Side Of The Sun

...plus a book for kiddies, the name of which escapes me.

Enjoy!

mph@praxis.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 10:53:41 GMT
From: gareth@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (Gareth Husk)
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

>"Also by the same author:"
>   Strata
>   The Dark Side Of The Sun
>
>...plus a book for kiddies, the name of which escapes me.

   It's called _The_Carpet_People_

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gareth
JANET: gareth@uk.ac.lancs.comp

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 12:33:02 GMT
From: kev@imperial-software-tech.co.uk (News reading a/c for kevin)
Subject: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

In response to the responses on this subject here is the Discworld 
list (in publication order):-

   The Colour of Magic  Paperback
   The Light Fantastic  Paperback
   Equal Rites		Paperback
   Mort			Paperback released last week
   Sourcery		Hardback only
   Wyrd Sisters		Hardback only, released last week
   Pyramids		Announced title of 7th book, proposed
			   release date of May '89

He has also had his earlier Science Fiction works (again humorous) released
in paperbacks. These are "The Dark Side of the Sun" and "Strata". [Critical
note: These were written before CoM and there are numerous simularities
between them and the Discworld books which are distracting. It's obvious he
used these two to 'test' out his ideas]

If anyone (Stateside) wants more info on the books (i.e. ISBN numbers etc.)
then drop me a line directly and I'll send them on.

Cheers,  

Kev Holmes
Imperial Software Technology		
Reading, Royal Berkshire, UK.
(44) 252 547902
kev@ist.CO.UK

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 17:22:47 GMT
From: butler@helios.toronto.edu (Scott Butler)
Subject: Dilvish the Damned

     A question: does anybody have any theories on just who or what Black,
the "demon" horse in Roger Zelazny's Dilvish stories, is?  At the end of
the book _The Changing Land_ Dilvish claims that Black is like no demon he
has ever known.  Black replies that he never claimed to be a demon (though
he met Dilvish in Hell) and, when pressed, will only say that Dilvish will
never know how close he came to finding out.  Am I missing something
obvious here or is Black some sort of lesser god?  There are many such in
Zelazny's books and the two did come upon the gods "playing dice with the
universe" (in a manner that would make Einstein shudder).

     Also, has Roger Zelazny written more stories about Dilvish than are
contained in the two books _Dilvish the Damned_ and _The Changing Land_?
I'm especially interested about his experiences in Hell and the nature of
his contract with the Black.

      Zelazny, I find, creates some of the most fascinating characters I've
seen; unfortunately, the stories he weaves about them do not always live up
to their full potential.  _Eye of Cat_ is a good example of this.  After
reading the first chapters in a magazine and being enthralled by the
character of Willam Blackhorse Singer (hmm...Blackhorse <--> Black the
horse.  I never made the connection there before.  Maybe Black is William
:-) I searched for years to get the book and was somewhat disappointed when
I finally did read the rest of it.

Scott Butler
butler@helios.physics.utoronto.ca

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 29 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 330

Today's Topics:

			   Books - Card (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 88 22:07:24 GMT
From: doc@holin.ATT.COM (David Mundhenk)
Subject: Re: Ender, Card's supergenius kids

DCHPC@UOTTAWA.BITNET ("Michael R. Margerum") writes:
> Jim Burnet writes:
>>Now all fiction -- realistic mainstream or SF -- modifies the world at
>>large to serve the greater purposes of fiction.  But where Card really
>>blows it is in the reality/believability of his juvenile characters, who
>>have emotional outlooks grossly inconsistent with their ages.  I don't
>>care how bright a five year old is, they aren't going to have the
>>emotional insights and understandings of someone much older; they just
>>don't have the cognitive and developmental history that makes it
>>possible.
>  .....(many comments deleted).....
> Again, I think we musn't make the mistake of underestimating children.
> History is full of child geniuses (eg. Mozart) and talented youngsters.
> Remember that Card is not writing about average children, but highly
> intelligent and talented ones. Ender was only discovered after an
> exhaustive search and selection process, and was then carefully developed
> in a specialized environment.

GOOD POINT - and also consider how different the world in general is in
Card's story. I don't think children in our world today are encouraged to
recognize reality and the big picture of humanity. Plus, if our education
system did more than try to shove facts down their throats, and if parents
really tried to teach them something at young ages instead of saying "go
play outside or something", we might be surprised at what they are capable
of.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 88 22:44:09 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Re: Ender

jimb@ism780c.UUCP (Jim Brunet) writes:
>bg0l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bruce E. Golightly) writes:
[anecdote by Golightly of child speaking like an adult]
>>Is there any reason that Ender couldn't follow the same pattern? There
>>are older kids in battle school, and games (video/adventure/...) play a
>>part in their training. While there are no quotes in the book to support
>>it, the use of this kind of terminology is not inconsistant with other
>>things going on.
>
>The point is not vocabulary, which can be aped by anyone at any time.
>The point is one of developmental psychology:  the degrees of moral
...
>My developmental psych background is both informal and patchy -- a few
>academic books plus typing a psych dissertation.  Anyone out there in
>netland who has a substantive academic background in same care to comment?

Well, substantive background aside (I have done some patchy reading in the
development of spoken language in children, specifically metaphor and other
nonliteral speech), I think the question of psychological plausibility is
very much aside the point.  Science fiction is full of extenuating
circumstances and whatnot, and true-to-life realism hasn't always been such
an important issue.  What has been important has been believability.  The
question isn't whether or not it's possible for a child under the
circumstances of one of the writer's characters to behave as he/she/it
does, but whether or not the author gets us to accept that.  Incidentally,
I think it's no defense at all to claim that readers are ignorant and that
anyone who thought carefully would have seen that the characters were
behaving as they should - if it requires rationalizing, then as far as I'm
concerned, the author hasn't done his/her job.  In other words, if readers
have to stop to question whether or not the character would really have
said the line, then the author is at fault.  In this case, I personally
thought Card did a terrible job.  I wasn't at all taken in by either the
dialogue or the writing in general, and I have a hard time believing that
anyone who is defending his dialogue on the basis of realism-under-the-
circumstances really didn't feel the slightest bit put off.  With those who
defend his dialogue on other bases, I think the disagreement is just a
matter of personal taste.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 22:24:42 GMT
From: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire)
Subject: Re: Ender [or, The Turn of Another Card...]

lkl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu  (L Kleiner ) writes:
> [Praise of Card omitted, not unkindly]
>  ...  If you want to read a (rather nasty) editorial on _Ender's War_,
> check out Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine "About Books".  Within
> the past year Norman Spinrad (a truly pitiful SF writer - has anyone
> actually been able to finish one of his books?) attacked Card's writing
> style, addressed the sup- posed inadaquacy of his themes, dull plots, and
> his Mormonistic messagesin his books.  By reading these attacks on Card's
> works, I noticed what I liked about Card - his writing, his themes, his
> plots.  I didn't pick up on the Mormonistic undertones.

Since then, the usual range war has erupted, with two weeks of snarling.
I'll just leave aside the burning question's re Ender's vocabulary.
However, apropos the wrangle over Orson Scott Card's stated religion versus
the possible religiosity of his novels--especially _Ender_ and
_Speaker_--here is an interesting sidelight:

A friend of mine who routinely does the SF Con circuit was taken aback at
the thought that OSC could be too heavily larding his novels with
Mormonisitic messages [riffle through the pages backwards and find out the
subliminal dogma, I suppose].

She pointed out that at least two times OSC has led a "Secular Humanist
Revival" to assert, humorously and then seriously, the importance of
defending science against those who would stifle its findings in favor of
their own religious and/or political doctrine.  The synopsis of this is,
from her telling, that you may or may not like the idea of defending
pornographers' rights, but the First Amendment makes it necessary to do so,
because if you let "them" stamp out the pornographers the next ones they
will come for may be you, and society will end up with only the scared and
the persecutors.

This spirited and apparently funny performance took place at the WorldCon
in Atlanta in 1986 and again at Chattacon[?] in 1987, along with possible
other venues. Moreover, it doesn't seem like something that was done
spontaneously and then dropped, because there were [are, possibly] tapes of
this available from the man himself at his Greensboro address.

This is certainly not conclusive proof of anything, but it doesn't square
with what I know of the Mormon social agenda from lifetime reading,
conversations with both enlightened and unenlightened Mormons, and two
years living in Montana, where the Mormon influence is broadly felt and
loudly proclaimed. Moreover, it doesn't square with the idea of OSC somehow
slipping in "Mormonistic" trappings in his SF novels.  My vote is that this
is a case of someone gratuitously trashing a writer's work, with the
heaving and panting corpus of fandom rising up to get into its obligatory
lather and fight its proxy battles at the level of "Did, too," "Did not,"
and "Bracckkk!  Pfffffft!"

Sad to say, so many of my fellow net-beings fit Pauline Kael's description
of Andre Gregory in her 1982 _New Yorker_ review of _My Dinner with Andre_:

Persons who rush to peer over the edge of every imaginary volcano.

Alexander H. McIntire,Jr.
Graduate School of International Studies
U.of Miami
Box 8123
Coral Gables, FL 33124
305-284-4414
Internet/Bitnet: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu
uucp: uunet!gould}!umbio!amcint

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 16:05:11 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Ender [or, The Turn of Another Card...]

g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire) writes:
>...at least two times OSC has led a "Secular Humanist Revival" to assert,
>humorously and then seriously, the importance of defending science against
>those who would stifle its findings in favor of their own religious and/or
>political doctrine.  The synopsis of this is, from her telling, that you
>may or may not like the idea of defending pornographers' rights, but the
>First Amendment makes it necessary to do so, because if you let "them"
>stamp out the pornographers the next ones they will come for may be you,
>and society will end up with only the scared and the persecutors.  This is
>certainly not conclusive proof of anything, but it doesn't square with
>what I know of the Mormon social agenda from lifetime reading,
>conversations with both enlightened and unenlightened Mormons, and two
>years living in Montana, where the Mormon influence is broadly felt and
>loudly proclaimed.  Moreover, it doesn't square with the idea of OSC
>somehow slipping in "Mormonistic" trappings in his SF novels.

This raises several points.  First, there is no question of the Mormon
influence in Card's novels.  He has never made any attempt to deny it, and
in fact has given talks on it to people in church circles.  The position of
the church hierarchy on pornography is about as pertinent to Card's work as
the Pope's position on birth control is for "A Canticle for Leibowitz" or
"A Case of Conscience", two SF examples which feature catholic ideas and
influences.  Second, there are many Mormons, including myself, who take
positions on social issues that differ from those of the church hierarchy.
Libertarianism is quite strong in Utah and among church members, and the
libertarian position regarding outlawing drugs and pornography is quite the
opposite of most church leaders (and members).  One should not try to
categorize all Mormons as believing the same things, for even when it comes
to religious doctrines, there is quite a bit of diversity.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 88 20:08:35 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Ender [or, The Turn of Another Card...]

llkl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (L Kleiner) writes:
> Norman Spinrad (a truly pitiful SF writer - has anyone actually been able
> to finish one of his books?) attacked Card's writing style, addressed the
> sup- posed inadaquacy of his themes, dull plots, and his Mormonistic
> messages in his books.

Sigh.  This keeps getting quoted as fact, so I guess I can't just leave it.
Spinrad's critical attacks on Card's recent work did not in any way take
Card to task for his Mormonism.  That's a serious accusation to make
against Spinrad, and making it demands documentation if challenged.  When I
asked for such documentation from Spinrad's essays, no one gave it.
Therefore, it would be reasonable for people here to assume it's false,
until and unless contrary evidence is presented.  OK?

g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire) writes:
>She pointed out that at least two times OSC has led a "Secular Humanist
>Revival" to assert, humorously and then seriously, the importance of
>defending science against those who would stifle its findings in favor of
>their own religious and/or political doctrine.
>
>This is certainly not conclusive proof of anything, but it doesn't square
>with what I know of the Mormon social agenda from lifetime reading,
>conversations with both enlightened and unenlightened Mormons, and two
>years living in Montana, where the Mormon influence is broadly felt and
>loudly proclaimed.

It doesn't.  Card took major heat from the Latter-Day Saints for these
gatherings, which were quite common at conventions for a while.  He has now
stopped doing them under pressure from the Church.  At least, so I've heard
from sources close to Card.  My old college reportedly denied him a faculty
position when he moved to Greensboro, by the way.  It's the home of Fred
Chappell, and teaches an SF course, so that seems a bit odd.

>Moreover, it doesn't square with the idea of OSC somehow slipping in
>"Mormonistic" trappings in his SF novels.  My vote is that this is a case
>of someone gratuitously trashing a writer's work.

Uh, yes, but the someone is Kleiner, and the writer whose work is being
trashed is Spinrad.  Again, if there's some prejudiced allusion in
Spinrad's critical essays that I missed, I'd like to hear about it.  

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 88 23:35:20 GMT
From: JJones@sunkissed.aero.org (Jeffrey R. Jones)
Subject: Re: Ender

GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>I recently finished reading ENDER'S WAR and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson
>Scott Card. These books could very well be the best science fiction I have
>read in over two years. Would anyone like to post their opinions,
>comments, or trivia pertaining to these books?

It's ENDER'S GAME isn't it? But, enough of those kind of comments. I agree
wholeheartedly with your assessment. "Speaker" wasn't as enthralling as
"Ender", but they made me go out and buy the other Card books that I had
been seeing on the shelves. I recommend that you read the Tales of Alvin
Maker books as they come out too. Card has a touch for storytelling that is
fantastic.

JJones@dockmaster.arpa
jeff@aerospace.aero.org

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 88 15:03:25 GMT
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: Ender (end confusion)

JJones@sunkissed.UUCP (Jeffrey R. Jones) writes:
>GRV101@PSUVM.BITNET writes:
>>I recently finished reading ENDER'S WAR and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by
>>Orson Scott Card. . .
>It's ENDER'S GAME isn't it? . . .

I've seen this a lot recently.  ENDER'S WAR is the title on the Science
Fiction Book Club volume containing both ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE
DEAD.

UUCP:     {backbone}!bbn!levin		
INTERNET: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 88 04:56:38 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Ender's Game

odlin@reed.UUCP (Iain Odlin) says:
>da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
>>I don't know... For me, I liked Ender's game because I identified a great
>>deal with the main character, and I got a kick out of him "defeating" the
>>other kids in his school despite his physical and social limitations (ie
>>being several years younger).
>
>I concur.  In fact, as a rather nebbish high-schooler, I was always on the
>receiving end of many unpleasant things.  After reading "Ender," I took to
>heart his attitude of "if I don't stop it now, I'll never be rid of it."
>So,

In other words, you liked it because it was typical adolescent power
fantasy (the "Emperor of Everywhere" syndrome). The hero meets obstacles,
is hurt terribly, overcomes them, goes on to Win the War...  the only way
this plot could have been redeemed was with a different ending, which was
impossible because Card had already signed for a sequel and thus couldn't
leave Ender as a guilt-ridden nervous breakdown case (as he did in the
novella).

With that out of the way, I must admit that I enjoy getting my levers
pulled just as much as everybody else does, and re-read the book a couple
of times.  I still haven't quite figured out why, though... the "power
fantasy" is certainly a part of it, as is the macabre enjoyment of
suffering that I suspect lurks in all of us, but what else?

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 14:58:03 GMT
From: albert@endor.harvard.edu (David Albert)
Subject: Re: OSC:  A Planet Called Treason

>I've heard mentions of Treason or a Planet called Treason, but have never
>seen this in the bookstores...

I have only a book-club edition of A Planet Called Treason; it was the
first story I read by OSC, before I knew anything about him, and I did not
place the author with the title.  When I first read Ender's Game, it struck
me that I had read something with a similar style before, and I traced it
back to "A Planet Called Treason."  The story is about a group of families
exiled from their original home planet after an unsuccessful revolution,
and the separate parallel evolution of each family's "special talent" --
limb-regeneration, physics, time-control, illusion, etc.  It's a pretty
good book, even if it does open with a horrible line something like (I
don't have it in front of me now) "He realized he was in trouble when he
saw that he was growing a full set of breasts."

David Albert			
UUCP: ...{think, rutgers}!harvard!albert
INTERNET: albert@harvard.harvard.edu	

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 29 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 331

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Bear & Greenwood & Heinlein (6 msgs) &
                      Lee & LeGuin (3 msgs) & Leiber (3 msgs) &
                      Longyear (2 msgs) & Maxwell

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 16:30:21 GMT
From: motmpl!ellymae!anasazi!duane@mcdchg.chi.il.us (Duane Morse)
Subject: _The_Forge_of_God by Greg Bear (no spoiler)

Time: near future

Place: Earth

SF elements: First Contact

Introduction: Europa disappears. Later, aliens land in Australia and in
California. The ones in Australia are robots and seem to have friendly
intentions. The one in California is a biological organism and announces
that the Earth is doomed to destruction.

Main storylines: the first contact, trying to figure out which story is
real and what action to take.

Critique: After the first few pages of this book you realize that you're at
the uppermost point of a rollercoaster ride and that you'd better get a
good grip on the safety bar. The story is a wonderful blend of hard science
(the main characters are scientists and science writers), action, and
drama. It's thrilling, exciting, and moving. My thanks to the person on the
net who first recommended this one.

Rating: 4.0 out of 4.0 - one of the best I've ever read.

Duane Morse
(602) 861-7609
...!noao!{asuvax or nud}!anasaz!duane

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 18:11:08 GMT
From: kurash@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Mark Valence)
Subject: Has anyone read...

Have any of you read Ed Greenwood's first (to my knowledge) novel entitled
_SpellFire_ ?  I have just finished it and have yet to decide what I think.
are any out there having mixed thoughts, as I am?  Please comment (as I
know you will :-)

M. Valence
M.Valence@mac.dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 14:55:05 GMT
From: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire)
Subject: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

A long time ago, as net-history works, maybe 18 months, there was a
mega-flame about the works, good, bad, or indifferent, of Robert Heinlein
[long before he died, anyway].

Much lamentation from fans regarding uncollected and apparently unfindable
stories missing from otherwise complete collections.

Well, I have a copy of "Beyond Doubt," from _Astonishing Stories_, Vol. 2,
No. 4, April 1941, written by Lyle Monroe [RAH] and Elma Wentz.  The copy
looks like a manuscript, because someone lovingly typed the whole story [17
typed pages].  A clutch of people have vouched for the authenticity of the
story, and even correctly identified Elma Wentz as a real person who did
collaborate with RAH back in the dark ages before wheel and fire were
invented.

As I said, it was apparently never collected, but has appeared in
bibliographic listings.

BTW, without spoilers, it is about politics and Easter Island.

Alexander H. McIntire,Jr.
Graduate School of International Studies
U.of Miami
Box 8123   
Coral Gables, FL 33124
305-284-4414
Internet/Bitnet: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu
uucp:  uunet!gould}!umbio!amcint

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 05:33:30 GMT
From: barry@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: You are saved from seeing Heinlein story

g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire) writes:
>Well, I have a copy of "Beyond Doubt," from _Astonishing Stories_, Vol. 2,
>No. 4, April 1941, written by Lyle Monroe [RAH] and Elma Wentz.

   It is available, though not easy to find. It has been anthologized
twice, to my knowledge: 1) _Beyond the End of Time_, ed. by Frederik Pohl
(Permabooks, paperback, 1952); 2) _Political Science Fiction_, ed. by
Warrick Greenberg (Prentice-Hall, 1974).

   If you can't find it, you're really not missing much, fellow Heinlein
fans. It's not a terribly good story.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 88 05:46:09 GMT
From: J_STEPHEN_HALL@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

Howdy,
 
Does anyone know about any posthumos books by Heinlein?

Steve
UUCP:  ucbvax!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!j_stephen_hall
INTERNET:  portal!j.hall%cupertino.pcc@sun.com        

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 88 21:49:52 GMT
From: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire)
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

J_STEPHEN_HALL@cup.portal.com writes:
>Does anyone know about any posthumos books by Heinlein?

Sure... anything after _Stranger in a Strange Land_ raises the suspicion,
at least, that part of him was, so to speak, er, um, dead....  Surely the
whole sex-crazed-geezer cycle was somehow compensatory.  Before the methane
starts to flicker, let me point out that I stumbled across my first
Heinlein juvenile back in 1956, before wheel and fire were invented, and he
was absolutely first in my book literally for decades, so I post this with
rue, not scorn.  I am still pretty sure that _Citizen of the Galaxy_ is
what hurled me into the civil rights movement in the early 60's, and I have
a first edition of _The Puppet Masters_ hardcover, so there---Braccccck!

Alexander H. McIntire,Jr.
Graduate School of International Studies
U.of Miami
Box 8123   
Coral Gables, FL 33124
305-284-4414
Internet/Bitnet: g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu
uucp:  uunet!gould}!umbio!amcint

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 02:27:00 GMT
From: tyg@caen.engin.umich.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Posthumous Heinlein nonfiction to appear

According to the latest issue of the Comic Buyer's Guide, Del Rey will
publish 'Grumbles From The Grave' a collection of Heinlein's letters from
the period 1939-1972 which were selected by RAH for posthumous publication.
These include letters to John W. Campbell, Heinlein's experiences with
publishers and editors, his views on writing, and personal reminiscences.

The book will be published in hardcover in 1990 (sigh...) and in paperback
a year later. There will also be a brief introduction by Virginia Heinlein.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 23:59:47 GMT
From: J_STEPHEN_HALL@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

  In response to my first message, I was hoping that Heinlein had a novel
stashed away to be printed after his death where his main character (L.
Long) croaks.  After all if John D. MacDonnald could do it then Heinlein
could!
  Failing that there must be a few novels laying around gathering dust
somewhere (like Phil K. Dick).

  I don't want everyone to think that I think he was the world's best
author (thought he was), but if there is anything laying around it should
be published.

Steve
UUCP:  ucbvax!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!j_stephen_hall

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 16:58:18 GMT
From: rvermaa@klipper.cs.vu.nl (Richard Vermaas)
Subject: Tanith Lee titles-list

I have got this list from a friend. Does anyone know other titles from
Tanith Lee? Additions would be very appreciated. Note: The second column is
a list of Dutch translations.

Replies by E-mail will be sumnarized in a followup..

Thanks a lot..
Richard Vermaas

English                            Nederlands 

THE BIRTHGRAVE (1975)              Het GeboorteGraf
THE WINTERPLAYERS (1976)           Het Relikwie
DON'T BITE THE SUN (1976)          \samen verschenen als 
DRINKING SAPPHIRE WINE (1977)      /De Janggeneratie
EAST OF MIDNIGHT (1977)            Ten Oosten van Middernacht
THE STORM LORD (1977)              Heer der Stormen
VOLKHAVAAR (1977)                  Volkhavaar
VAZKOR, SON OF VAZKOR (1978)
SHADOWFIRE                         Shaduwvuur
QUEST FOR THE WHITE WITCH (1978)   De Witte Heks
NIGHT'S MASTER (1978)              Heerser van de Nacht
THE CASTLE OF DARK (1978)          Kasteel der Duisternis
DEATH'S MASTER (1979)	           Meester van de Dood
ELECTRIC FOREST (1979)	           Het Elektrische Woud
SHON THE TAKEN (1979)	           Shon Bezeten
SABELLA, OR THE BLOODSTONE (1980)  Sabella
DAY BY NIGHT (1980)                Dag bij Nacht
KILL THE DEAD (1980)               Laat de Doden Sterven
DELUSION'S MASTER (1981)           Meester van de Waan
LYCANTHIA, OR THE CHILDREN OF
WOLVES (1981)                      De Wolvekinderen
PRINCE ON A WHITE HORSE (1982)     - 
CYRION ( ? )                       -
SUNG IN SHADOW (1983)	           -
THE SILVER METAL LOVER (1983)      - 
ANACKIRE (1983)	                   Anackire
RED AS BLOOD, OR TALES FROM THE
SISTERS GRIMMER (1983) 	           -
TAMASTARA ( ? )	                   -
THE GORGON ( ? )                   -
DAYS OF GRASS (1985)               -
DELIRIUM'S MISTRESS (1986)         Vrouwe van de IJlingen
NIGHT'S MYSTERIES ( ? )            Prins van de Nacht 
THE WHITE SERPENT (1988)           -

Richard Vermaas
mcvax!cs.vu.nl!rvermaa

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 02:01:47 GMT
From: albert@endor.harvard.edu (David Albert)
Subject: Looking for "The ones who walked away from ???"

Can someone point me to the full title of the story by Ursula LeGuin whose
partial title I give in the subject line, and to a collection I might find
it in?

Thanks.

David Albert
UUCP: ...{think, rutgers}!harvard!albert
INTERNET: albert@harvard.harvard.edu	

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 22:33:42 GMT
From: jester@ihlpl.att.com (Conty)
Subject: Re: Looking for "The ones who walked away from ???"

albert@endor.harvard.edu (David Albert) writes:
>Can someone point me to the full title of the story by Ursula LeGuin whose
>partial title I give in the subject line, and to a collection I might find
>it in?

The complete name is "Those who walk away from Omelas".  I read it in a
friend's copy of Norton's_Introduction_to_Literature (I think it was the
second edition).  This is a widely used textbook for English courses, but
if you are interested in more of LeGuin's work, I'm pretty sure someone
else might guide you towards a SF anthology containing this story.

Hope this helps,

E. Conty
..!att!ihlpl!jester

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 05:46:30 GMT
From: dd@beta.lanl.gov (Dan Davison)
Subject: Re: Looking for "The ones who walked away from ???"

albert@endor.harvard.edu (David Albert) writes:
>Can someone point me to the full title of the story by Ursula LeGuin whose
>partial title I give in the subject line, and to a collection 

The title is "The ones who walked away from Omelas", and I believe it was
in "The Wind's Twelve Quarters".  Omelas is Salem,O spelled backwards.
That is from the introduction to the story and my memory.  The story is
short, beautiful, and compelling; her introduction said the inspiration
came from The Brothers Karamazov (sp?).  Any more would give away the
considerable punch of the story.

Dan Davison
Theoretical Biology
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Los Alamos, NM 875545
dd@lanl.gov
dd@lanl.uucp
..cmcl2!lanl!dd

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 22:53:07 GMT
From: texbell!mic!d25001@cs.utexas.edu (Carrington Dixon)
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber

rcarver@udenva.UUCP (Randy Carver) writes:
[about the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser books]
>These were all written in the late 60's (sorry don't have my library or a
>BIP handy) and I'm sure they've been reissued a few times since.  I think
>that my copies are Bantam.

  Fritz has written about F&GM off on on since the late 30's.  The first
book, _Two_Sought_Adventure_, was published by Gnome Press in 1957.  The
late 60's saw him add quite a bit to the canon but hardly "all".  Last time
I looked, the paperback publisher was Ace, but I haven't been watching too
closely of late.

    Oh yes, the material in TSA also appears in the six books listed by
previous posters; so, it does _not_ count as a seventh book except to the
completest collector.

Carrington Dixon
{ convex, killer }!mic!d25001

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 02:59:37 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber

What about "Swords and Sea Magic", a short story published in the old TSR
house organ, "Dragon Magazine"? Was it collected in a real book?

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 07:28:06 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Leiber: where is he?

At the risk of repeating myself, Fritz Leiber is alive and well (at least,
he's doing damn well for someone old enough to have corresponded with
Howard Phillips Lovecraft) and writing interesting new things.  The next
F&GM book, THE KNIGHT AND KNAVE OF SWORDS, is due out within a few weeks;
he's now correcting the galleys.  The S&M scenes are going to curl a few
longtime fans' toes, I'm sure, but they make perfect sense in context.  

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 22:40:26 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Barry Longyear

lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
>FNBENJ@WEIZMANN.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
>>novels, however, compares to the hideousness in Barry Longyear's Sea of
>>Glass.  I'm still trying to decide if the horror is gratuitous.  The main
>>thrust of the book seems to be how the central character is intentionally
>>molded for his future by his ghastly upbringing, but was all the detail
>>necessary?

That has been done a long time ago... who has forgotten Aldous Huxley's
_Brave New World_, George Orwell's (aka Eric Blair) 1984_ and _Animal
Farm_, B. Skinner's _Walden II_, and many other dystopias. Try K.W. Jeter's
dystopian/mutilation novel Dr. Adder_! That will fry your eyes into
sunnyside-up eggs in a Tokyo minute. If you want to hide in a fuzzy place,
then try reading some Anne McCraffrey/Katherine Klutz/Marion Bradley
feminine power fantasy. Yuck! Ugh! Try reading some cat novels...  or
intelligent dolphins in space.

> afternoon.  He said that as he was writing the book, he was trying to
> show what happens when your population explodes beyond the point that
> there's enough food to support it.  I haven't read the book, but his
> comments on it intrigued me.

He's imitating Malthus or Cotton Mather, by gum. There have been far better
books both nonfiction and fiction than Barry Longyear will write.

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs
Denver

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 20:28:40 GMT
From: rti!xyzzy!throopw@mcnc.mcnc.org (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Sea of Glass (was Barry Longyear)

FNBENJ@WEIZMANN.BITNET (Benjamin Svetitsky) writes:
> I was interested to read all the criticism of Orson Scott Card where
> people complained of his cruelty to children.  Nothing in the Ender
> novels, however, compares to the hideousness in Barry Longyear's Sea of
> Glass.

Very, VERY true.  The cynical manipulation of Sea of Glass' main
character's childhood makes the manipulators of Ender's Game look like a
bunch of coddling, bleeding-heart nannies.

> I'm still trying to decide if the horror is gratuitous.

In some ways, me too.  I wonder if the book is a masterpiece, or just too
grotesque for words.  But I conclude that the horror is NOT gratuitous (see
below).

> The main thrust of the book seems to be how the central character is
> intentionally molded for his future by his ghastly upbringing, but was
> all the detail necessary?

I didn't think the main idea was the mechanics of HOW such a horror could
be done, but rather more subtle.  The choice was between the immediate
horror of the manipulation, vs the eventual horror of worldwide holocaust.
A significant part of the book was spent ruling out the position of "well,
maybe we can muddle by and avoid the holocaust and still avoid this
shorter-term horror".  No, the whole point of the book as I saw it was
casting the question the welfare of the few versus the welfare of the many
into the bluntest of terms.  And the beauty of the book (in some sense of
beauty) is that it left me wondering.  It balances the reader on the cusp
of this dilemma very precisely (it seems to me), and then spends the time
detailing the horrors of the protagonist's youth to sharpen the cusp to the
point that it cannot fail to impale the thickest-skinned of readers and
make them FEEL the imense scale of the conflict, the tension, the
unbearable rat-cornered back-against-the-wall genuine DILEMMA that the book
presents.

And yet, as I said... it is still unclear to me whether Longyear is saying
that the welfare of the many DOES or DOESN't preempt the welfare of the
few.  And after reading the book, I don't know what I think either.

Was the protagonist driven mad by his manipulators to do what he did in the
end... or was he driven sane enough to do it?

> I'd appreciate hearing comments about this disturbing book.

Me too.  More comments, eh?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 88 00:45:52 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Ann Maxwell

As long as we're into author lists, could someone post one for Ann Maxwell?
I know of:

The Fire Dancer trilogy
   _Fire Dancer_
   _Dancer's Luck_
   _Dancer's Illusion_
_Timeshadow Rider_
_The Singer Enigma_
_The Jaws of Menx_

I have the first five of those, but have only heard of the last.

Also, which of them share universes? _Timeshadow Rider_ is in the Fire
Dancer universe, albeit six eras earlier.

(No flames on quality, please -- I don't claim they're particularly
fantastic, I just enjoy them.)

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 29 Nov 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 332

Today's Topics:

	     Books - Pangborn & Clark Ashton Smith (3 msgs) &
                     Zahn (5 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 00:53:21 GMT
From: djk@vail.cs.columbia.edu (David Kurlander)
Subject: Davy (A Review)

There's something about good first person narratives that strikes a
resonant chord with me, particularly narratives in which a character
describes those early events which help form or alter their world view.
Within SF, some of my favorite books fitting this classification are Rite
of Passage (Alexei Panshin), Riddley Walker (Russell Hoban), and Shadow of
the Torturer (Gene Wolfe).  Motivated by an sf-lovers posting, I tracked
down a copy of Davy, by Edgar Pangborn, a book which also fits in this
category.

Davy, which was published back in 1964, pretends to be by a man in a
post-holocaust society who, during a long ocean voyage, decides to write of
his youth.  The world described is interesting, detailed, and richly
presented through the narrator.  Pangborn's characters, with a few
significant exceptions, seem very real and have significant degree of
complexity.  Those exceptions are characters that the narrator meets toward
the end of his youth, who later travel with him on the ship.

One aspect of the book that I found particularly annoying is that the
narrator frequently describes his world in terms of comparisons with how
things were in the Old Time, a time long before he was born, but
conveniently a time with which the reader is familiar.  Though some
motivation for this is presented, it still feels artificial, as though
Pangborn felt he could not convey his world without explicit comparisons to
our own.

However, the book is very well-written, and significantly better than most
of the SF written today.  If you missed this book when exhausting your
library's supply of SF during your own youth, you might want to track this
down.

David Kurlander
djk@vail.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 88 23:11:58 GMT
From: eurtrx!henk@mcvax.cwi.nl (Henk Langeveld)
Subject: Re: How many books by Clark Ashton Smith are there?

V112PDL5@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU writes:
>   The only books I've been able to find are _The City of the Singing
>Flame_, and _Zothique_. Does anyone know if there any more in existence?

You'd better ask how many short stories have been written by him. In any
case, recently I found a copy of Volume 2 of _Out of Space & Time_, for
which I have been looking since I got Volume 1, some four years ago.  These
are British paberbacks, Panther 1974, and are based on an original
publication from Arkham House 1941.  I haven't got vol 1 at hand, but the
introduction in Vol 2 mentions The City of The Singing Flame, The End of
the Story, A night in Malne^H'ant, The Double Shadow, and The Dark Eidolon.
All of these should be in vol 1. I've got volume 2 before me now, and I'll
cite the Contents:

Clark Ashton Smith: Master of Fantasy	7
   (( 1941 intro by August Derleth and Donald Wandrei ))

   /Judgments and Dooms/
   The Last Hieroglyph	13
   Sadastor	33
   The Death of Ilalotha	39
   The Return of the Sorceror	53

   /Hyperborean Grotesques/
   The Testament of Athammaus	75
   The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan		99
   Ubbo-Sathla	111

   /Interplanetaries/
   The Monster of the Prophecy	123
   The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis	167
   From the Crypts of Memory	189
   The Shadows	191

The whole book has 192 page, the last story is only 2 pages long.  Apart
from the credits for the intro, I've quoted the Contents page verbatim.  If
I can locate Volume 1 in one of my dank, desolate attics, I'll post that
book's title page as well.

I've also got some anthologies in Dutch translation, if anybody is
interested... Perhaps somebody has a complete bibliography...

Henk Langeveld
Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam
010-408 1346
henk@eurtrx.UUCP
henk@euraiv1.UUCP
langeveld@hroeur5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 14:03:24 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Re: How many books by Clark Ashton Smith are there?

V112PDL5@UBVMSC.CC.BUFFALO.EDU writes: 
>    The only books I've been able to find are _The City of the Singing
> Flame_, and _Zothique_. Does anyone know if there any more in existence?

In hardcover, from Arkham House (and long out of print):

OUT OF SPACE AND TIME
LOST WORLDS
GENIUS LOCI AND OTHER TALES
THE ABOMINATIONS OF YONDO
TALES OF SCIENCE AND SORCERY
OTHER DIMENSIONS

The first four were reprinted in England by Neville Spearman and also
appeared as British paperbacks, the first two broken into 2 volumes each.

Arkham House has planned (just released?) another Smith anthology, but it's
of works previously collected by them.

Lin Carter's paperback anthologies for Ballantine are:

ZOTHIQUE
HYPERBOREA
XICCARPH
POSEIDONIS

collecting stories from the similarly named cycles of CAS's.  A fifth,
MALNEANT, was planned to contain the Averoigne stories, but it never made
it to press.

Does anyone know of some good studies of Smith's work?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 18:34:07 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: How many books by Clark Ashton Smith are there?

I've also seen (on Fritz Leiber's bookshelves) something called THE BLACK
BOOK OF CLARK ASHTON SMITH, which seems to have evaded mention so far.
I'll see if I can get some bibliographic information on it.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 21:01:58 GMT
From: rti!xyzzy!throopw@mcnc.mcnc.org (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn

sasblc@sas.UUCP (Brad Chisholm) writes:
>    Having been on one of my occasional reading binges lately, I picked up
> "Cobra" and "Deadman Switch" by Timothy Zahn and read them on two
> successive nights.  Perhaps I've been living an isolated life, but these
> are the first books I've read by Mr. Zahn.  Is he well known/respected[?]

Well... sort of "well known and kind-of-respected".  Most SF critics don't
think too much of his work, as far as I know.  But, in my opinion, he gives
good value for my recreational book-buying dollar.

>    I enjoyed both books, but I liked "Deadman" better.  It seemed to flow
> better than "Cobra", and something about laminating bones didn't set
> quite right...

Well, this is to be expected.  "Cobra" was some of his early work, and
"Deadman Switch" is his latest.  He's improved over time (in my opinion).
I expect he'll improve more, and while I expect he'll never be a rousing
critical success, he'll probably continue to be "good box office".

>   Anyway, how are the other Cobra books, "Cobra Strike!" and "Cobra xxxx"
> (the second name escapes me at the moment)?  Are they worth reading, or
> would they just be a waste of time/money?  How about other books by Zahn?
> All comments welcome....

"Cobra Mission", I think.  I'd say they were about as good as Cobra, but
not any better.  I think his other books range both above and below the
Cobra books in quality.  Off the top of my head, in decreasing order of
"goodness" on my personal Zahn-O-meter:

   Deadman Switch
   Spinnerette <??>
   Coming of Age
   Cascade Point (short story collection)
   Cobra
   Cobra Strike!
   Cobra Mission <??>
   Black<mumble> (uh... that series about the super martial
      artists enhanced by the "backfire" drug to enhance reaction speed,
      fighting the "Ryrquil"<sp?> occupation of human planets... that *was*
      by Zahn, right?  Sort of "Middle-aged Mutant Ninja Guerillas".  )
   Triplet

It might be worth expanding on why "Triplet" places so low, despite being
quite recent.  Well, each of the novels is based rather blatantly on a
central gimick... in fact, each book is named for the gimick.  But Triplet
has an initially interesting but upon-reflection very boring gimick.
Somehow this overdone gimick made me not care much what happened to the
protagonists, despite his coming up with some pretty good characters to
work with (compared to his other work).

So to sum up, I tend to buy most anything by Zahn, but not for my primary
reading pile as for Zelazny or Brust or Lee's flat earth stories.  More for
my plane-trip or sick-in-bed reading pile, when I have extra time to kill.

( As a subordinate point, some of you folks who were saying how rare it is
in SF to find religion treated sympathetically might like to sneak a peek
at "Deadman Switch"... its main character is "religious", and has "powers
and abilities far beyond those of mortal man" because of his religious
upbringing.  Interesting notion, on several levels. )

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 15:41:15 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn

sasblc@sas.UUCP (Brad Chisholm) writes:
> Perhaps I've been living an isolated life, but these are the first books
> I've read by Mr. Zahn.  Is he well known/respected, or has he just
> recently started getting accolades (award mentions were part of the
> reason I decided to get the books) ?

Mr. Chisholm, Timothy Zahn is a hack, he will always be a hack, plain and
simple. Tim Zahn is one of the reasons that I read
mainstream/mystery/horror/historical fiction, because Timothy Zahn is a
fourth-rate Alan 'Dead' Foster. Tim Zahn is writing an infinitiseries, 'til
the day he dies. He's a mediocre writer at best, in the bad-to-worst
category in the scifi ghetto.

> (the second name escapes me at the moment)?  Are they worth reading, or
> would they just be a waste of time/money?  How about other books by Zahn?
> All comments welcome....

They're not worth reading, they're not worth the cost of the
paper the words are printed on, Mr. Chisholm. Try Walter Jon
Williams book titled _Voice of the Whirlwind_, that's by far
a better book than anything by Zahn.

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs
Denver

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 14:13:48 GMT
From: dwayne@nyser (Dwayne Herron)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:

>   Black<mumble> (uh... that series about the super martial
>      artists enhanced by the "backfire" drug to enhance reaction speed,
>      fighting the "Ryrquil"<sp?> occupation of human planets... that
>      *was* by Zahn, right?  Sort of "Middle-aged Mutant Ninja Guerillas".

The title in question is "The Blackcollar" and yes it is by Zahn The drug
you refer to is called "backlash" and there is a second book in that set
called "The Backlash Mission" where the Blackcollars try to find the
original "Backlash" drug formula.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 04:39:41 GMT
From: psrc@poseidon.att.com (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn

I wasn't sure if I was going to add to this, but the temptation to douse a
Davis Tucker flame and confuse everybodys' names is irresistible!

dht@drutx.ATT.COM (D. Tucker) writes:
>Mr. Chisholm, Timothy Zahn is a hack, he will always be a hack, plain and
>simple. Tim Zahn is one of the reasons that I read
>mainstream/mystery/horror/historical fiction, because Timothy Zahn is a
>fourth-rate Alan 'Dead' Foster. Tim Zahn is writing an infinitiseries,
>'til the day he dies. He's a mediocre writer at best, in the bad-to-worst
>category in the scifi ghetto.

Hi, Davis!  We must not have read the same newsgroups for a while.  Let's
begin with Mr. Zahn.  He's certainly not one of the greatest writers of the
last twenty years, but he's no reason to flee screaming from the genre,
either.  Both his characters and his writing style are just a bit flat, as
compared to those of writers like Zelazny, Haldeman, Brust, or even Brin.

What makes at least Zahn's short stories in CASCADE POINT admirable is that
he starts with an idea that, if not completely original, at least hasn't
been done to death (and isn't based on either Tolkien or STAR WARS.-) He
works the idea to its conclusion, and his characters live and grow (and
fit) within the range the idea suggests.

The only Zahn novels I've ever read are SPINNERET and A COMING OF AGE.  The
MacGuffin (sp?) in the former was tough to suspend disbelief for, and the
action and characters were strained as a consequence.  The latter picked up
too many romantic cliches for my taste.  I've never read any of the COBRA
novels.

>> (the second name escapes me at the moment)?  Are they worth reading, or
>> would they just be a waste of time/money?  How about other books by
>> Zahn?  All comments welcome....
> 
>They're not worth reading, they're not worth the cost of the paper the
>words are printed on, Mr. Chisholm. Try Walter Jon Williams book titled
>_Voice of the Whirlwind_, that's by far a better book than anything by
>Zahn.

There are some books that absolutely better than other books.  You may have
read every single one of Zahn's books, discounted your personal tastes and
prejudices, and come to the conclusion stated above.  I doubt it.  Your
strident tone of voice weakens your recommendation of Williams' book.  No,
I haven't read VOICE, nor has anything you've said in the above posting
made me want to.  You're not offending me, but you're not convincing me,
either.  And personal taste counts for something, too!

Paul S. R. Chisholm
AT&T Bell Laboratories
psrc@poseidon.att.com
att!poseidon!psrc
!psrchisholm

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 02:10:25 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Timothy Zahn

psrc@poseidon.ATT.COM (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes:
> Hi, Davis!  We must not have read the same newsgroups for a while.  Let's
> begin with Mr. Zahn.  He's certainly not one of the greatest writers of
> the last twenty years, but he's no reason to flee screaming from the
> genre, either.  Both his characters and his writing style are just a bit
> flat, as compared to those of writers like Zelazny, Haldeman, Brust, or
> even Brin.

I don't like Haldeman (the new improved RAH! Heh, heh, heh...).  I never
liked Brust, but he's not a hack. I'm not a Zelazny fan, I have read some
of his short stories, he's pretty good, but not as good as Gene Wolfe. You
tell me his characters and writing style are 'just a bit flat'? What an
understatement!  Zahn's a bit too flat for me, and his characters are
cardboard cutouts and their dialogue is flat as the paper it is written on!
Zahn has no discernible writing style, not that I can tell, I'm a good
judge of writing styles. I like Gene Wolfe, Edgar Pangborn, Cordwainer
Smith, Sam Delany, Lucius Shepherd, R.A.  Lafferty (the Wizard of Tulsa),
J.G. Ballard, and Brian Aldiss.  I don't like Asimov (or as he calls
himself 'Dr. A.'!), Clarke he has wooden characters), Heinlein (I read
everything RAH wrote before and including _Time Enough For Love_, he's too
fascist for me, and he's a mediocre writer, at best), John 'Wizard' Varley,
and Spiderman Robinson.

> What makes at least Zahn's short stories in CASCADE POINT admirable is
> that he starts with an idea that, if not completely original, at least
> hasn't been done to death (and isn't based on either Tolkien or STAR
> WARS.-) He works the idea to its conclusion, and his characters live and
> grow (and fit) within the range the idea suggests.

I have _Cascade Point_ at home, I read one good story out of all his
hackwork. You're talking about a hack, every story I read his characters
don't live and breathe, nor do they grow an iota. I see you live and
breathe the Idea Theory. The Idea Theory is long gone in science fiction,
except for Asimov and Clarke.

> The only Zahn novels I've ever read are SPINNERET and A COMING OF AGE.
> The MacGuffin (sp?) in the former was tough to suspend disbelief for, and
> the action and characters were strained as a consequence.  The latter
> picked up too many romantic cliches for my taste.  I've never read any of
> the COBRA novels.

I've read _Spinneret_ and _Coming of Age_, I've read two _Cobra_ novels.
That's enough for me, I spend more good money at the video store than the
predigested pap that Zahn serves me.

> There are some books that absolutely better than other books.  You may
> have read every single one of Zahn's books, discounted your personal
> tastes and prejudices, and come to the conclusion stated above.  I doubt
> it.  Your strident tone of voice weakens your recommendation of Williams'
> book.  No, I haven't read VOICE, nor has anything you've said in the
> above posting made me want to.  You're not offending me, but you're not
> convincing me, either.  And personal taste counts for something, too!

You ought to read _Voice of the Whirlwind_, I compare it to Bester's book
_The Stars My Destination_ in scope, great characterization, real-life
dialogue, good narrative, good plot, and the best antihero since Gully
Foyle. That's the best cyberpunk novel (it's not really cyberpunk) I've
read, and Williams is soon to write a masterpiece, he's that good a writer.
I have the right to be strident when I read crap. I never want to open a
Zahn book again. You want a recommendation? Read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's
latest book, _Love in the Time of Cholera_, or any Jim Harrison's novels,
if you read totally sf, try Paul Theroux's book, O-ZONE, or try Gore
Vidal's _Duluth_.

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs
Denver

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 2 Dec 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 333

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asprin & Burroughs &
                      Greenwood & Heinlein (4 msgs) & LeGuin & 
                      Maxwell & Superbeings & SF Landmark Poll

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 88 15:52:07 GMT
From: marko@apple.i.intel.com
Subject: Piers Anthony

I just finished a book by Piers Anthony, "Ghost".  It was the first time I
read anything by him.  Frankly, I was disappointed.  I did not care for the
book at all.

What I want to know from his fans is this, is this one of his better books?
If not, which would you recommend?  This is not an attack on him or you or
anything else.  It is an issue of taste.  If this is typical of his work
then it does not suit me.  If it is not typical then I'll try other pieces
of his work as recommended.

Thanks

Mark O'Shea

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 08:34:45 GMT
From: tar@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

marko@apple.i.intel.com (Mark O'Shea) writes:
>I just finished a book by Piers Anthony, "Ghost".  It was the first time I
>read anything by him.  Frankly, I was disappointed.  I did not care for the
>book at all.

I agree with you.  I've read most of his books, and I like his style of
writing.  "Ghost" just wasn't as good as I had come to expect from him.

>What I want to know from his fans is this, is this one of his better
>books?

Nope.

>If not, which would you recommend?

Hmm.  His 5 book series, "Bio of a Space Tyrant", was very enjoyable.  The
first book in the series is "Bio of a Space Tyrant: Refugee".  Summary:
poor refugee becomes Tyrant of the Solar System.

Another series (he seems to like spreading out his stories over several
books) is "Incarnations of Immortality".  The first book in this series is
"On a Pale Horse".  The premise is that there exists seven major
Incarnations (Death, Time, Fate, War, Nature, Evil, and Good), each of
which is an office held by a mortal.  So far he has written six books, each
centered around an Incarnation (he hasn't tackled Good yet).

Probably his most famous series (and his longest - what's it up to now, ten
books so far?) is his Xanth stories.  The first book, "A Spell for
Chameleon", won an award for best children's fiction (or something like
that) -- but it's not only a children's book.

Finally, his short story collection "Anthonolgy" was excellent.  I
recommend it.

Hope this helps.

Timothy Ramsey
BITNET: tar@KSUVAX1
Internet: tar@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu
UUCP: ...!rutgers!ksuvax1!tar
      ...!{pyramid,ucsd}!ncr-sd!ncrwic!ksuvax1!tar

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 88 20:48:01 GMT
From: bucsb!boreas@buita.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: When's Asprin's new Mythadventures book coming out??

Does anyone know when _M.Y.T.H._Inc._In_Action_ is coming out?  Asprin
mentioned it in his comments in either _ImPervections_ or _MYTH_Inc_Link_,
but I haven't seen it yet -- just the regular paperback edition of
_ImPervections_.  (Rats, can't remember the full title of that one; my
memory really *is* going.)

Michael Justice
BITNet: ccmaj@buacca
ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:...!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 16:07:00 GMT
From: perry@apollo.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Burroughs

11366ns@homxc.UUCP (N.SAUER) writes:
>  Beyond Thirty, as far as I know, has never seen a paperback edition,
>which is unfortunate because from what I have read about it it sounds like
>an interesting novel.

I have a paperback edition of Beyond Thirty published in the U.K. as "The
Lost Continent", published by Tandem in 1977.  So it can be found, if not
trivially.  I find used bookstores and flea-markets to be an excellent
source for Burroughs.  (This edition doesn't include The Maneater, which
I'm not aware of owning, though I think I have virtually all the others).

Beyond Thirty/The Lost Continent is a fun book, sort of a cross between
Burroughs in a Land That Time Forgot vein and John Wyndham, the story of an
American team in the distant future re-exploring Europe, which has long
fallen to barbarism, rampant fauna, etc.  Lots of opportunities for Lion
Encounters, Beautiful Maidens In Distress, some Pirates...

Jim Perry
Apollo Computer
Chelmsford MA
perry@apollo.com

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 09:42:12 GMT
From: samhend@cs.vu.nl (Hendriks Sander)
Subject: Re: Has anyone read...

kurash@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Mark Valence) writes:
>Have any of you read Ed Greenwood's first (to my knowledge) novel entitled
>_SpellFire_ ?  I have just finished it and have yet to decide what I
>think.  are any out there having mixed thoughts, as I am?  Please comment
>(as I know you will :-)

I read it and I liked the story, but I don't think SpellFire is usable in
any FRP campaign without modifications, because it is much to powerful. I
mean, a 1st or 2nd level character taking out a Dracolich AND a whole
mountain top all by herself? (NOTE: she was a THIEF at the time)

As long as it doesn't happen in my campaign I like reading about extremely
powerfull beings, so I enjoyed the book.

Those are my thoughts.	Satisfied?

Sander Hendriks
samhend@cs.vu.nl

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 20:23:56 GMT
From: bucsb!boreas@buita.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

g3d8bu9r%gables.span@umigw.miami.edu (Alexander H. McIntire) writes:
>Sure... anything after _Stranger in a Strange Land_ raises the suspicion,
>at least, that part of him was, so to speak, er, um, dead....
[...]
>Before the methane starts to flicker,

FWOOOMPFH!!  (Torch lit. :-)

If you're a True Heinlein Fan, surely you know that Heinlein was ill for
many years -- several arteries to his brain were so badly clogged that his
brain was being starved for oxygen, and so he was unable to write.
Surgery, back in the early 1980's (1981?), opened up the arteries, and he
began to write again shortly thereafter.

That's about all the "detailed knowledge" (i.e., not very, and not much)
that I have about it; my guess is that the effects were beginning to show
when he wrote _Time_Enough_for_Love_[*], and that by the time the surgery
was done, years later, some permanent damage had occurred which the surgery
couldn't correct.

[*] I believe this was after _Stranger_, and his last story before he
stopped for a long time, until _Number_of_the_Beast_.  ???

Heinlein wrote an article, published in Omni, about his testimony before a
Congressional committee; the article is also in _Expanded_Universe_.  I
think its title is "Spinoff".  I suggest you read it if you want more
information.  The focus of the article is on practical, highly useful
inventions that came from NASA's research programs -- among them some of
the instruments and materials used on Heinlein during diagnosis, treatment,
and recovery.

Disclaimer: it's been a *long* time since I read that article; don't take
this as gospel, read it yourself.

Michael Justice
BITNet: ccmaj@buacca
ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
UUCP:...!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 19:14:37 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.calpoly.edu 
Subject: Brain-drains and Heinlein Flames

>If you're a True Heinlein Fan, surely you know that Heinlein was ill for
>many years -- several arteries to his brain were so badly clogged that his
>brain was being starved for oxygen, and so he was unable to write.

You don't seem terribly broken up about that.

>[...stuff deleted...]  my guess is that the effects were beginning to show
>when he wrote _Time_Enough_for_Love_[*], and that by the time the surgery
>was done, years later, some permanent damage had occurred which the
>surgery couldn't correct.

WHOAH!  _Time Enough for Love_ was a damn good book.

Heck, even if you didn't like the story, you should still have enjoyed his
"Lazarus Long comments" (later collecting into - The Notebooks of Lazarus
Long).

I think that those comments were probably the greatest view on the opinions
of RAH.  He made it perfectly clear what he felt about a lot of things.

>[*] I believe this was after _Stranger_, and his last story before he
>stopped for a long time, until _Number_of_the_Beast_.  ???

Which didn't endear him to a lot of people, old fans or new.

>Heinlein wrote an article, published in Omni, about his testimony before a
>Congressional committee; the article is also in _Expanded_Universe_.  I
>think its title is "Spinoff".  I suggest you read it if you want more
>information.  The focus of the article is on practical, highly useful
>inventions that came from NASA's research programs -- among them some of
>the instruments and materials used on Heinlein during diagnosis,
>treatment, and recovery.

Exactly right.

>Disclaimer: it's been a *long* time since I read that article; don't take
>this as gospel, read it yourself.

Speaking of gospel, his book "JOB" was pretty controversial when it came
out.  I still don't understand why.  It was merely a writer's view of god,
the devil, etc.  LOTS of authors have done the same, is it just because he
is (was *sniff*) an SF author and wasn't supposed to have such thoughts?

Or maybe the controversy was only among those folks who considered him a
great author.  I considered it almost as good as Friday (which I thought
was his best modern book).

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU
...!ucbvax!voder!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 18:41:09 GMT
From: rebel!didsgn!till@gatech.edu (didsgn)
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

There is a school of thought (of which I am a member) which happens to
think that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ is Heinlein's weakest book, and
_Time Enough for Love_ one of his best. SiaSL was highly overrated only
because it fit the mood of the time very much (a mood which produced a load
of other shit as well)- and after that its undeserved reputation survived
only because of the cult that grew around it. TEfL, in fact, redeemed
Heinlein as a writer to be taken seriously.

Not what one would expect of a brain-damaged person... which leads me to
believe that his capacities were quite up to scratch. The one difference is
that his polemics grew substantially- which to me only suggests that he
kind of felt that it was maybe time to stop pussyfooting around, his
reputation being substantial enough to make readers forgive the author's
quirks.

Heck, I don't agree with the guy much of the time- but his essential
sanity, intelligence and perspicacity is something I see no reason to
question.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 14:14:53 GMT
From: c60a-2di@e260-2d.berkeley.edu (The Cybermat Rider)
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Heinlein Fans

aapetter@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Al Petterson) writes:
>J_STEPHEN_HALL@cup.portal.com writes:
>>  Does anyone know about any posthumos books by Heinlein?
>
>No, you're thinking of Hubbard. Heinlein won't go on writing now that he's
>dead. :-)

Speaking of Hubbard, does anyone know how many books in that dekalogy of
his (I can't remember the name off-hand) that he's finished?  I'm
interested in it, esp. after that 1000-odd-page tome (I think) called
"Battlefield Earth" occupied my interest scope for about 3 months.

Also, can anyone direct me to a few good mail-order firms/publishers
(addresses & phone nos, please) that specialize (or deal heavily) in SF
books?  I'm new to this country (what a way to put it!), so I'm VERY
uninformed about the SF scene here.

Thanks for any info!

Adrian Ho
University of California, Berkeley
c60a-2di@web.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 22:25:43 GMT
From: gwills@maths.tcd.ie (Graham Wills)
Subject: Re: Looking for "The ones who walked away from ???"

dd@beta.lanl.gov (Dan Davison) writes:
>David Albert writes:
>> Can someone point me to the full title of the story by Ursula LeGuin
>The title is "The ones who walked away from Omelas", and I believe it was
>in "The Wind's Twelve Quarters".  Omelas is Salem,O spelled backwards.
>That is from the introduction to the story and my memory.  The story is
>short, beautiful, and compelling; her introduction said the inspiration
>came from The Brothers Karamazov (sp?).  Any more

NoNoNoNoNo. Her inspiration came from FORGETTING Dostoyovsky and READING
ROAD SIGNS BACKWARDS - Hence "Omelas".  Some people think this is her best
short story. Others think she is the best SF writer in the trade. I agree
with the second group because of books such as 'Earthsea', 'Always Coming
Home', 'The Left Hand of Darkness', 'The Lathe of Heaven', 'The
Dispossessed'.  If you haven't read at least 3 of these then do so. What do
other people think of LeGuin? Do you prefer her novels or her shorts? Lets
get some discussion going on her! This is a formal proposal to discuss a
really good writer.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 02:49:03 GMT
From: mattc@ncr-sd.sandiego.ncr.com (Matt Costello)
Subject: Re: Ann Maxwell

Andrew C. Plotkin writes:
>As long as we're into author lists, could someone post one for Ann
>Maxwell?

I've the following 8 books, all as mass market paperbacks.  I don't know of
any other books written by Ann Maxwell.  The date listed is that of the
copyright.

   1975  Change
   1976  The Singer Enigma
   1980  Name of a Shadow
   1981  The Jaws of Menx
   1982  Fire Dancer
   1983  Dancer's Luck
   1983  Dancer's Illusion
   1986  Timeshadow Rider

_tSE_ and _NoaS_ are in a common universe, and occur in that order.  All
the others except _Change_ could also be in the same universe, although
given the time scale implied almost anything could be in that universe.
Only _tSE_/_NoaS_ and the Fire Dancer trilogy share (separately) enough
commonality for the 'same universe' question to be meaningful.  What all
the books do share is an interest in paranormal powers, primarily in the
protagonists.

I enjoyed Ann Maxwell's books and have reread them at one time or another,
but they will never win any awards.  I liked _NoaS_ the best, with _RD_ and
_TR_ being a close second.

Matt Costello
+1 619 485 2926     
matt.costello@SanDiego.NCR.COM
uunet!ncrlnk!ncr-sd!mattc

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 88 20:44:52 GMT From: stephenj%deblil@sun.com (Stephen
Johnson) Subject: Superbeing story theme

I am somewhat new to the net, so if this subject has been brought up
previously, excuse me...

I have noticed (can't be missed) that one of the most popular story lines
in Science Fiction involves an individual who has a trait (possibly many)
which is exceptional in comparison to other beings in the story.  This
''person`` beats his antagonist by using (or being used by) this amazing
trait.  I can think of several questions which can be discussed about this
story theme:

1) Has anyone compiled a list of the most popular traits assigned to
super-creatures?  I have not read Asimov's collection of stories
''Supermen`` yet.

2) Are there any authors who do not rely on this type of theme for their
stories?

3) What is the most obscure extra-normal trait assigned to a character and
how did the character use it to defeat his antagonist?

As an example: (possible spoiler)

I am currently reading the Dayworld series by Farmer (river world series
fame) and the main character has a really interesting extra-normal trait.
He can create and destroy personalities within his mind at will.  This
trait gives him the ability to resist the dreaded ''truth-spray``,
therefore, he can move somewhat freely within the totalitarian society of
Dayworld to achieve his ultimate goal.

If you have any ideas about this topic, or thoughts on it, post your
response to the net for discussion...

Stephen P. Johnson
Sun Microsystems, Inc.			
Mail Stop 5-40			
2550 Garcia Ave.
Mountain View, CA  94043
(415) 336-7978
Internet:  stephenj@sun.com
UUCP: ...!sun!stephenj

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 20:13:33 GMT
From: tee@mtuxo.att.com (54317-T.EBERSOLE)
Subject: Looking for the ultimate list - reprised

A friend was asking for some help in selecting good books to read, so I
dusted off my copy of the Landmark SF Poll for her. That list of landmark
stories was generated in 1982 by Stuart McLure. If a new list has been
generated more recently, in the last two years, I would appreciate a copy
of it. If it's been that long since the list was generated, perhaps it's
time for another. After all, the amount of information available is
doubling every 5 years, to misquote, from one of Bill Moyer's "World of
Ideas" interviews, the guy who runs the NY Public Library system.
(Varijian, maybe? I can remember what he looks like, but not his name.) The
original list also included a list of classics.  The definition of
"landmark," as given in that posting so many mega-milli- seconds ago: "A
work which introduced new ideas, new handling of old concepts, or shaped a
major part of the field and subsequent works."  The definition of
"classics/filler:" "A work which remains highly popular or is useful for
filling out the field."

Pre-response thanks.

[Moderator's Note:  Please direct all replies to the poster who, hopefully,
will summarize and post the new list.  Thank you.]

Tim Ebersole
...!att!mtuxo!tee 
{allegra,ulysses,mtune,...}!mtuxo!tee

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 2 Dec 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 334

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Niven (5 msgs) & Pangborn (3 msgs) &
                       Pavic (3 msgs) & Clark Ashton Smith & Wolfe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 88 19:47:26 GMT
From: ech@poseidon.att.com (Edward C Horvath)
Subject: Re: Superbeing story theme

stephenj%deblil@Sun.COM (Stephen Johnson) writes: 
> 3) What is the most obscure extra-normal trait assigned to a character
> and how did the character use it to defeat his antagonist?

I recall a character in Niven's "A Gift From Earth" who was able to
telekinetically induce another person's pupils to contract.  It is a
legitimate fact, BTW, that when a person is interested in something s/he
sees, the pupil dilates; when disinterested, the pupil contracts.  And YOU
are subliminally aware of the other person's pupil reaction: blue-eyed
folks have more visible pupils, and the dilate/contract reaction is greater
in such people.

Niven's interesting notion, of course, was that if you looked at me, and I
contracted your pupils, you'd "decide" you weren't interested in me.
Making me effectively invisible...the guy didn't KNOW that's what he was
doing, just that he could always walk away from a confrontation he didn't
want.

The "funny" side effect was that the poor sap was still a virgin.  Seems
whenever things got interesting he'd get a bit nervous, and his
subconscious would cause the lady to lose interest in him...

Ned Horvath

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 09:23:14 GMT
From: gsmith@bosco.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Superbeing story theme

ech@poseidon.ATT.COM (Edward C Horvath) writes:
>I recall a character in Niven's "A Gift From Earth" who was able to
>telekinetically induce another person's pupils to contract.
>
>Niven's interesting notion, of course, was that if you looked at me, and I
>contracted your pupils, you'd "decide" you weren't interested in me.

  This was Jayhawk Hood's interpretation of what was happening. I wondered
if this was a way of telling us that Jay was really an idiot, because the
idea manifestly is nonsense. For one thing, we already *know* ways of
contracting and dilating the pupils. It shouldn't work in reverse, and
doesn't.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 00:43:51 GMT
From: pcp2g@bessel.acc.virginia.edu (Philip C. Plait)
Subject: Re: Superbeing story theme

twinkies!gsmith (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>ech@poseidon.ATT.COM (Edward C Horvath) writes:
>>I recall a character in Niven's "A Gift From Earth" who was able to
>>telekinetically induce another person's pupils to contract.  Niven's
>>interesting notion, of course, was that if you looked at me, and I
>>contracted your pupils, you'd "decide" you weren't interested in me.
>
>  This was Jayhawk Hood's interpretation of what was happening. I wondered
>if this was a way of telling us that Jay was really an idiot, because the
>idea manifestly is nonsense. For one thing, we already *know* ways of
>contracting and dilating the pupils. It shouldn't work in reverse, and
>doesn't.

It seems that you all are confusing cause and effect. The way I saw it, he
telepathically made a person forget him. This *caused* their pupils to
constrict, not the other way around. The characters in "Gift" saw him as
directly affecting the pupils, as did Matt himself. I think they were
wrong.

On the other hand, it might be a conditioned response. He mentions that
restaurants are kept dark (so your date's pupils would be dilated, making
you think he/she is interested in you) and that if you look at pictures of
the opposite sex, the one you say is most attractive is the one with
dilated pupils.

Possibly over time this condition has reversed--if your pupils are
contracted by someone, you would suddenly lose interest in them. (does the
name Pavlov ring a bell? :-} )

Looking over this again, it seems pretty silly. I think either Niven was
confused (what?!, you say. Niven make a mistake in a story?????) or his
characters were. You make the call.

Phil Plait
UVa Dept. of Astronomy      
PCP2G@bessel.acc.virginia.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 03:50:21 GMT
From: rti!xyzzy!throopw@mcnc.mcnc.org (Usenet Administration)
Subject: Re: Superbeing story theme

>>Niven's interesting notion, of course, was that if you looked at me, and
>>I contracted your pupils, you'd "decide" you weren't interested in me.
>   This was Jayhawk Hood's interpretation of what was happening. I
> wondered if this was a way of telling us that Jay was really an idiot,
> because the idea manifestly is nonsense. For one thing, we already *know*
> ways of contracting and dialating the pupils. It shouldn't work in
> reverse, and doesn't.
 
I think Gene's characterization of Niven's gimmick as "manifest nonsense"
is a bit too strong.  I recall thinking the same thing as he pointed out:
my opthamologist uses drops to dilate my pupils every exam, yet I don't
become facinated by everything I look at, as Niven has happen, for example.
Similarly for contractions.  But, while far-fetched, it is still
conceivable that pupil response after accounting for constant influences
and light-level could govern "interest".  After all, the ways we have of
contracting and dilating the pupil do not vary with direction of eye
fixation, and could plausibly be filtered out of such a proposed mechanism.
 
Of course... I'd still probably bet Jay money that he was wrong about the
mechanism.  But it's only a remarkably poor hypothesis, just short of
"manifest nonsense".

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 05:03:00 GMT
From: gsmith@bosco.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Superbeing story theme

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Usenet Administration) writes:
>Of course... I'd still probably bet Jay money that he was wrong about the
>mechanism.  But it's only a remarkably poor hypothesis, just short of
>"manifest nonsense".

  After Hood tells Matthew Whatsis (our hero) that this is the mechanism,
he interprets things in this way. But Niven put in no real evidence that
this explanation was correct.

  I was disappointed that it didn't turn out to be a hint that Jay Hood was
a crank, that would have been a neat twist, and suitable punishment on all
who swallowed his line of jabber.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 88 06:03:49 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Davy (A Review)

djk@vail.cs.columbia.edu (David Kurlander) says:
> Davy, which was published back in 1964, pretends to be by a man in a
> post-holocaust society who, during a long ocean voyage, decides to write
> of his youth.  The world described is interesting, detailed, and richly
> presented through the narrator.  Pangborn's characters, with a few
> significant exceptions, seem very real and have significant degree of
> complexity.  Those
>
> However, the book is very well-written, and significantly better than
> most of the SF written today.  If you missed this book when

I'll try to find it. I have a copy of Pangborn's book "West of the Sun"(?)
somewhere around here, that I remember fondly -- not because of the writing
(which was, at best, uninspired), but because of various philosophical
questions explored about man's place in society.  Does anybody know what
else Pangborn wrote? When he lived/died? etc.?  My general opinion was,
"very 50'ish SF... but that's not ALL bad." I have had to revise my opinion
of 50's SF greatly, recently, after reading Greenberg's "best of the golden
age" collection et. al... the writing is often grating, but as a literature
of ideas, it simply was incomparable with the majority of modern literary
pap ("Look ma! Looks great! Less filling, less taste!").

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 00:27:46 GMT
From: djk@vail.cs.columbia.edu (David Kurlander)
Subject: Re: Davy (A Review)

Yes, the writing in _Davy_ was a bit '50s-ish.  The writing was the work of
a craftsman rather than a master, but it was enjoyable just the same.  A
while back someone mentioned on the net that to them, Gene Wolfe's
_Book_of_the_New_Sun_ seemed to be a combination of Vance's
_The_Dying_Earth_ and Pangborn's _Davy_.  Having liked Gene Wolfe's series
so much, I immediately tracked down copies of the other books so that I
could make a comparison.  _The_Dying_Earth_ was truly wonderful -- it has a
similar setting to BotNS, and Jack Vance has the same incredible ability to
put words together on the micro-level (phrases and sentences), that Gene
Wolfe has on the macro-level (chapters and books).  _Davy_ shared the same
high-level structure as BotNS.  Both books are first person narratives of a
single man's life, begin and end in relatively similar ways (that's no
spoiler), are told in the same episodic manner, and have large quantities
of forward references.  I have quite a fondness for forward references; not
only do they indicate that the writer knows where he's going before he gets
there, but I also enjoy the challenge of piecing together the end of the
work before I reach it.  Of course, forward references can also be done
poorly.  Just think of all those schlocky fantasy works chock-filled with
prophecy.

David
djk@columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 04:22:15 GMT
From: mvp@v7fs1.uucp (Michael Van Pelt)
Subject: Pangborn & 50's SF.

elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) writes:
>Does anybody know what else Pangborn wrote? When he lived/died? etc.?

Besides "Davy", he wrote a lot of short stories.  I read a collection
entitled "Still I Persist in Wondering" which was soooo depressing...  I
bought it on Spider Robinson's very strong recommendation.  Oh, well, most
of Robinson's other recommendations have been very good.  His steering me
toward Petr Beckmann's "The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear" make up
for it, and then some.

I haven't read "Davy".  I may give it a shot some day.

Mike Van Pelt
...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 88 08:38:56 GMT
From: Kevin_P_McCarty@cup.portal.com
Subject: Dictionary of the Khazars

I was in the bookstore the other day and saw very briefly, in passing (I
was already late and over budget) the following curiosity:

   The Dictionary of the Khazars, a lexicon novel
   by Milorad Pavic

The dust jacket claims this book is a best-seller in Eastern Europe
(translated from-- Czechoslovakian was it?).

It's some kind of fantastical fiction, possibly involving vampires or such.
A remarkable thing: it seems it comes in two versions.  The legend on the
cover of one reads

           This is the male edition of the dictionary.
             The female edition is almost identical.
                  Be warned that one paragraph
                     is crucially different.
                      The choice is yours.

The female edition, right next to it on the shelf, has the converse legend.
(sudden thought-- perhaps the crucial paragraph is on the front cover...)

Has anyone read this?  What is it?

Kevin McCarty

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 18:36:53 GMT
From: deryck@athena.mit.edu (Timothy D Stone)
Subject: Re: Dictionary of the Khazars

Kevin_P_McCarty@cup.portal.com writes:
>I was in the bookstore the other day and saw very briefly, in passing (I
>was already late and over budget) the following curiosity:
>
>    The Dictionary of the Khazars, a lexicon novel
>    by Milorad Pavic
>
>The dust jacket claims this book is a best-seller in Eastern Europe
>(translated from-- Czechoslovakian was it?).
>
>Has anyone read this?  What is it?

As a matter of fact I read over the last couple of days and was planning to
to post something about it as a follow up to all the Calvino talk and
here's my excuse!

First off, I loved the book.  It not only highly imaginative but extremely
well written.  The first comparison that comes to mind is Calvino's "If On
A Winter's Night A Travellor..."  As the author says, it's more like a
crossword puzzle than a traditional novel for it is indeed organized in a
fashion that vaguely resembles a dictionary.  Readers may, and are
encouraged to, skip about and follow their own train of thought/reading
throughout the book (although there's nothing stopping you from going from
page one straight through).  This may sound gimmicky (if that's a word),
but Mr. Pavic's eloquence and the wonder of the various themes intertwined
throughout the novel combine to make this book almost participatory!

Second, the dust cover says it was translated from Serbo-Croatian, if
anyone cares.  An excellent translation, I might add.

Third, if you would like to hear more before shelling out 20 bucks, there
was an excellent review of it in last week's NY Times Book Review which you
should be able to pick up at any good bookstore for 2 or 3 dollars.  I cut
this one out and glued it in the book because it gives the two paragraphs
which make the difference between the male and female editions.  Again,
about the translation- the review compared the translator favorably to W.
Weaver and his translations of Calvino as well as to Garcia Marquez'
translator (whose name escapes me right now).

Fourth, while I'm gabbing, has anyone out there read anything by Ariel
Dorfman, originally from Latin Am. now a Prof. at Duke?  I think his latest
novel is called "Mascara."

Tim Stone

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 17:03:06 GMT
From: agarvey@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Alan Garvey)
Subject: Re: Dictionary of the Khazars

Kevin_P_McCarty@cup.portal.com writes:
>I was in the bookstore the other day and saw very briefly
>
>    The Dictionary of the Khazars, a lexicon novel
>    by Milorad Pavic
> . . .
>vampires or such.  A remarkable thing:  it seems it comes in
>two versions.  The legend on the cover of one reads
>
>           This is the male edition of the dictionary.
>             The female edition is almost identical.
>                  Be warned that one paragraph
>                     is crucially different.
>                      The choice is yours.
>
>The female edition, right next to it on the shelf, has the
>converse legend. (sudden thought-- perhaps the crucial paragraph
>is on the front cover...)
>
>Has anyone read this?  What is it?

The New York Times Book Review of Nov. 20 (or maybe Nov. 13) has a long
review of this book.  It sounds very interesting.  Apparently the book is
written in a hyper-text-like format.  It is really a dictionary and you can
start anywhere and follow a trail of references.  In fact, the contents of
the English language edition are in completely different order from the
original, because, being a dictionary, it orders its contents
alphabetically.  The reviewer claims that the worst possible way to read
this book is from cover to cover.

I don't remember much about the actual content.  Apparently it is some kind
of history of a forgotten culture that flourished about 1000 AD.

By the way, the review includes the male and female versions of the one
paragraph that differs in the 2 editions.  I won't spoil it for you, but it
is definitely not the blurb on the cover.

Alan Garvey
Internet: agarvey@teknowledge.arpa
uucp: {uunet|sun|decwrl|ames|hplabs}!agarvey%teknowledge.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 88 00:24:36 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: How many books by Clark Ashton Smith are there?

Not a complete novel, but a collection of short stories, is THE
ABOMINATIONS OF YONDO from Arkham House; I also have his collection of
poetry--which is not at all bad--called, I seem to remember, THE COLLECTED
POEMS OF CAS, which is also from Arkham House.  He has always seemed like
an interesting person to me, but probably too much of a loner to enjoy as
company.

Hal

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 88 01:54:41 GMT
From: alzabo!brian@scs.carleton.ca (Brian Hilchie)
Subject: Gene Wolfe, Severian, and Latro

I have just returned to the net after a lengthy absence so I apologize if
this has come up recently.

Has there been in the last few months or will there be in the near future
anything published by Gene Wolfe, particularly followups to _Soldier of the
Mist_ and _The Urth of the New Sun_?

Also, does anyone share my suspicion that Latro (from SofM) and Severian
(_The Book of the New Sun_ and TUofNS) are the same person?  I don't have
any hard evidence for this, but the ending of TUofNS leaves this
possibility open, and I find the similarities and contrasts between the two
characters very intriguing.  Any comments supporting or refuting this
theory are welcome.

Brian Hilchie
brian@alzabo.uucp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 5 Dec 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 335

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Anthony (5 msgs) & Card (2 msgs) & DeCamp &
                    Forward (2 msgs) & Greenwood & LeGuin (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 19:59:27 GMT
From: jdrew@uoregon.uoregon.edu (James Robert Drew)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

marko@apple.i.intel.com (Mark O'Shea) writes:
>I just finished a book by Piers Anthony, "Ghost".  It was the first time I
>read anything by him.  Frankly, I was disappointed.  I did not care for
>the book at all.
>
>What I want to know from his fans is this, is this one of his better
>books?  If not, which would you recommend?  This is not an attack on him
>or you or anything else.  It is an issue of taste.  If this is typical of
>his work then it does not suit me.  If it is not typical then I'll try
>other pieces of his work as recommended.

As a long time Piers Anthony fan (I'm only missing 4 books -- 3 aren't in
PB yet), I was not impressed with _Ghost_ either.  It was originally a
short story he had published in the late 60's (I think), where the editor
changed his title and gave away the story thereby.  The original story can
be found in _Anthonology_ (incidentally, the story was like chapters 2 and
4 of the book, or someting like that).

Many of his recent works have not been up to snuff.  Of course, some have
been reissues of his early 70's stuff by Tor Books.  These reissues are:
   Pretender
   Rings of Ice
   Triple Detente
   Prostho Plus
   The E.S.P. Worm

Also recently reissued are:
   Chthon
   Phthor
   Mute
   Tarot: Vision of Tarot
          Faith of Tarot
          God of Tarot
   Cluster:Cluster
           Chaining the Lady
           <something>
           Thousandstar
           Viscous Circle

What I would recommend are:
   Mute
   the Cluster books (especially Viscous Circle -- PA does a good job of
      creating weird aliens in this whole series)
   the Tarot books (insight into Tarot and religion)
   Anthonology (short stories ranging from the ordinary to the bizarre)

Also:
   Battle Circle (one of his early works -- post holocaust)
   Omnivore, Orn, and OX (especially the latter -- sheer weirdness in
      inter-dimensional travel)

Briefly, his weirder books are often the best.  Ones which deal with odd,
controversial subjects really spark my interest (aliens based on magnetism
and taste in _Cluster_, cannibalism, non-Christian religions (including
Satanism -- a recurring theme for PA, along with sex), cycling of bodies,
time, and dimensions, etc.).

There is no book I would dis-recommend (although _Race_Against_Time_ comes
close).  Enjoy...
 
Jim Drew
jdrew@drizzle.cs.uoregon.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 03:33:13 GMT
From: boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (John Boswell)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

Hi.
   Personally, my *favorite* book by Piers Anthony is "Macroscope".  It is
"hard" sf, equal to Niven's earlier stuff (World out of Time, Ringworld).
Being almost 20 years old it may be dated, but....still a wonderful book.
As far as his recent stuff goes, it's *ok*, but only for *light* reading.
(I haven't read the "Space tyrant" stuff, though...)
   These are just my opinions...

By the way... has Anthony written any more books in the "Apprentice Adept"
series?  I've read only the first three, and they are great! (Split
Infinity, Blue Adept, Juxtaposition).

John Boswell
Dept. of Chemistry
Dartmouth College
boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 06:49:34 GMT
From: tar@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (John Boswell) writes:
>By the way... has Anthony written any more books in the "Apprentice Adept"
>series?  I've read only the first three, and they are great! (Split
>Infinity, Blue Adept, Juxtaposition).

Yep, the fourth in the trilogy(?) is "Out of Phaze".  It's been a while
since I read it, but it was a good book.

Anthony mentions in the Authors Note that number five is in the works.

Timothy Ramsey
BITNET: tar@KSUVAX1
Internet: tar@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu
UUCP: ...!rutgers!ksuvax1!tar
      ...!{pyramid,ucsd}!ncr-sd!ncrwic!ksuvax1!tar

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 15:25:13 GMT
From: dalcs!iisat!paulg@uunet.uu.net (Paul Gauthier)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

marko@apple.i.intel.com.UUCP writes:
> I just finished a book by Piers Anthony, "Ghost".  It was the first time
> I read anything by him.  Frankly, I was disapointed.  I did not care for
> the book at all.

   _Ghost_ was the first book of his that I had read also, I too was
disappointed. But don't take that as an indication of his skill; I've read
MANY others by him since, and was satisfied with almost all of them. His
series _Bio_of_a_Space_Tyrant_ is one of my 'all time' favorite SF series.
I recommend you read BoaST for a better indication of his skill.  Also, his
older _Cluster_ series was good. It was written in the late 60's and thru
the 70's I think, so bear with some of the expected flaws.

   Since _Ghost_ Piers Anthony has become one of my favorites authors, so
give some of his other works a try and you'll be satisfied. Oh yeah, he
also writes a lot of Fantasy... _Xanth_ and the Phaze series were good, as
were his Incarnations of Immortality books (combo SF and Fantasy).

Paul Gauthier
{uunet, utai, watmath}!dalcs!iisat!{paulg | brains!paulg}

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 07:20:12 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

>I just finished a book by Piers Anthony, "Ghost".  It was the first time I
>read anything by him.  Frankly, I was disapointed.  I did not care for the
>book at all.
>
>What I want to know from his fans is this, is this one of his better
>books?  If not, which would you recommend?

Well, I usually like Anthony, so here goes...  (opinion mode on)

In his introduction to _Ghost_, he said it was a very early work of his,
and had been rewritten somewhat after the Steady State theory of the
universe went out of fashion for Big Bang. He changed the story from a
space voyage to a time voyage, while keeping the main events of the story
the same. My primary opinion upon reading it was that the seams showed, and
none of the changes improved anything.
   Disregarding that, it's still not my favorite book of his. Anthony
wobbles back and forth over the line between storytelling (which tends to
be uninteresting, like _Ghost_ or _Macroscope_), and moralizing (which
tends to be uninteresting, like _Bio of a Space Tyrant_). When he's in
between, I enjoy his work enormously. Things like _Incarnations of
Immortality_, the _Split Infinity_ series, and _Tarot_.
    Umm, the above may be more a categorization by my tastes than by how he
wrote. Basically, there *is* great variety in his work, so try a few
different things.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 06:19:42 GMT
From: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) 
Subject: Re: movies I'd like to see

   Orson Scott Card is working on novelization of a thriller sort of a
movie called "The Abyss" about some high-tech scuba divers whose acronym
I've forgotten (they come out in _Raise the Titanic!_).  The director is
supposed to be James Cameron.

   I don't know all the details but he read us the first few chapters and
it sounded pretty good.  I don't know about the quality of the movie, tho
Orson was pretty enthusiastic about it.

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-328-8225
Internet: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu
UUCP: {rutgers, att}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: hirai%cs.swarthmore.edu@swarthmr.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 07:08:23 GMT
From: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Author Lists: Orson Scott Card

JWenn.ESAE@XEROX.COM writes:
> Card, Orson Scott 
>   The "Capitol" series: 
>      Hot Sleep [1978]
>      Capitol [1978] [C]
>      The Worthing Chronicle [1983]

   Actually, Orson told us that he took Hot Sleep off print because it was
such a bad book.  He recommended against reading it.  The Worthing
Chronicle is supposed to be a rewrite of Hot Sleep.  I don't know if they a
vastly different since I haven't read them but Orson feels The Worthing
Chronicle is much much better.

   He's also edited Dragons of Darkness (1981) and Dragons of Light (1984).
Has anyone read these collections?

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-328-8225
Internet: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu
UUCP: {rutgers, att}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: hirai%cs.swarthmore.edu@swarthmr.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 20:14:38 GMT
From: ssc!markz@teltone.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: Author Lists: L. Sprague de Camp

I'm looking for an obscure de Camp title.

It was a paperback circa 1960-1967 with two stories in it.

Story 1, about the Resistance after an alien invasion, where the invaders
were sort of a green blooded kangaroo which needed a mental amplifier
helmet to boost their brain power enough to think.

Story 2, The mainland USA is repressive, but Hawaii is free having invented
a biological Maxwells Demon, which provides their power.

Mark Zenier
uunet!nwnexus!pilchuck!ssc!markz
markz@ssc.uucp
uw-beaver!tikal!

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 07:03:19 GMT
From: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Robert L. Forward is flat

zuhn@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Dave Zuhn) writes:
> But yes, Forward did write a sequel to Dragon's Egg.  It's called
> Starquake, where a surface quake destroys much of the cheela civilization
> built in the 24 hours of the previous book, and the humans must save the
> cheela ... and then some.  ISBN 0-345-31233-3.  Wonderful book.

   The two books have the most 2-dimensional characters I have ever read in
a recently published SF book.  No, I'm not talking about the Cheelas that
are naturally flat (physically).  I weep when cardboard characterizations
is all it takes to make a "Wonderful book".

   By the way, the Cheelas aren't very original sociologically either.
They resemble human society to its last detail.  What a boring universe.

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-328-8225
Internet: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu
UUCP: {rutgers, att}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: hirai%cs.swarthmore.edu@swarthmr.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 08:16:39 GMT
From: dant@mrloog.la.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-101;)
Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward is flat

Eiji Hirai writes:
>The two books have the most 2-dimensional characters I have ever read in a
>recently published SF book.  No, I'm not talking about the Cheelas that
>are naturally flat (physically).  I weep when cardboard characterizations
>is all it takes to make a "Wonderful book".

The cheela books are wonderful in the "gizmo-sf" genre.  This means that
they advanced the "technology" of sf.  While people may have thought of
beings living on neutron stars before, no one ever really thought out the
physics (or had the expertise to do so).

A lot of the physics in the books is either incorrect or just speculation
based on what we know today, but for a hard sf book, it's wonderful.

There's not a lot of books written in the "gizmo-sf" tradition anymore.
One of it's requirements seems to be that the author concentrate all his
creative energies on the gizmos and let the characterization and plot
slide.  Actually, Forward does a pretty good job on characterizations for
this genre.

>By the way, the Cheelas aren't very original sociologically either.  They
>resemble human society to its last detail.  What a boring universe.

I think this was intentional.  Before contact was made, the cheelas were
somewhat different than humans.  The influence of the humans on the cheelas
was very pronounced.

Actually, I think Forward's biggest falldown is that he never has his human
characters have any conflicts except perhaps on technical questions.  That
applies to _Flight of the Dragonfly_ as well.  More than anything else,
this lack of conflict makes them rather boring books.

Dan Tilque
dant@twaddl.LA.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 22:14:10 GMT
From: watcsc!ross@math.waterloo.edu (Ross Ridge)
Subject: Re: Has anyone read...

samhend@cs.vu.nl (Hendriks Sander) writes:
>kurash@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Mark Valence) writes:
>>Have any of you read Ed Greenwood's first (to my knowledge) novel
>>entitled _SpellFire_ ?
>
>I read it and I liked the story, but I don't think SpellFire is usable in
>any FRP campaign without modifications, because it is much to powerfull. I
>mean, a 1st or 2nd level character taking out a Dracolich AND a whole
>mountain top all by herself? (NOTE: she was a THIEF at the time)

If you want use characters like her in the book, check out the Greenwood's
Incantrix (sp?) NPC that appeared in a Dragon Magazine way back. The
character class isn't exactly like how it was presented in the book; it
certainly isn't as powerful. The best use for a character like this would
be as a NPC in order to confuse the players. It could be used as a PC
class, but be sure it's not going to upset your game balance if you do.

The book itself was fairly good, and it was interesting to see how he
handled the AD&D game concepts.

Ross Ridge
!watmath!watcsc!ross

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 20:11:27 GMT
From: jdrew@uoregon.uoregon.edu (James Robert Drew)
Subject: Re: Looking for "The ones who walked away from ???"

gwills@maths.tcd.ie (Graham Wills) writes:
>What do other people think of LeGuin? Do you prefer her novels or her
>shorts? Lets get some discussion going on her! This is a formal proposal
>to discuss a really good writer.

I've read far too little of LeGuin to pass word.  Of the _Earthsea_
trilogy, I always felt that _The_Tombs_of_Atuan_ was the weak link, and
preferred the _Wizard_of_Earthsea_ over _The_Farthest_Shore_.

I never picked up _The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness_ after reading the first few
pages when I was eight (Same thing happened that year with _Perellandra_
and _Treasure_Island_, and later with _Dune_).  I know I should pick it up
and reread it, but, well...

Her _Hainish_Novels_ (_Rocannon's_World_ and the other one) never impressed
me.

Of the short stories, I'm _still_ not up to "The Word for World is Forest"
in _Again,_Dangerous_Visions_.  I've read _The_Wind's_Twelve_Quarters_
several times, and absolutely love "April in Paris."  Never have been able
to finish _Orsinian_Tales_ though -- I get halfway through, and put it down
for four years.

My favorite LeGuin story, though, is "The Wife's Tale."  Can't go into the
story without giving it away, but this was in an book I had for English
Fiction Writing (right after Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart").  Does anyone
know if this story has been collected elsewhere?

You asked.  I told.  And now you can infer the rest of the story...

Jim Drew
jdrew@drizzle.cs.uoregon.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 05:43:49 GMT
From: dd@beta.lanl.gov (Dan Davison)
Subject: Re: Looking for "The ones who walked away from ???"

gwills@maths.tcd.ie (Graham Wills) writes:
> NoNoNoNoNo. Her inspiration came from FORGETTING Doestoyovesky and
> READING ROAD SIGNS BACKWARDS - Hence "Omelas".

This sounds right.  My copy of The Wind's Twelve Quarters appears to be
missing--everything else is there, I guess my sister has real good taste
:-(.

I have to disagree about the latter though.  Can you provide a quote?  I do
remember that the parallel between Karamazov and the story was remarked
upon in the prologue or epilogue.  I guess I will head to the bookstore
tomorrow...

> Some people think this is her best short story. 

Well, yes, if you classify "The Word for World is Forest" as a novella or
something like that.  Otherwise, a tie.

> Others think she is the best SF writer in the trade.

Period.  No question whatsoever.  You can read her for "entertainment", for
her distinctive style, or for the powerful messages she weaves into her
later work.

>  I agree with the second group 'cos of books such as 'Earthsea', 
 
I have lost count of the number of times I've read the Earthsea trilogy,
not to mention the number of levels on which they can be enjoyed.  A
stunning achievement.

> 'Always coming home', 'The left hand of darkness', 'The Lathe of Heaven',
> 'The Dispossessed'. If you haven't read at least 3 of these then do so.
> What do other people think of LeGuin? Do you prefer her novels or her
> shorts?

The later work I find far more moving.  The last three you have listed are
of couse significant for the presentation of alternate political/ sexual
systems, and the nature of reality.  "The Dispossessed" was being used in
some freshman-level political science courses a few years ago.

> Lets get some discussion going on her! This is a formal proposal
> to discuss a really good writer.

Gee, I thought I was doing that. ;->

There was some discussion in this list a few weeks ago where someone called
the Earthsea books "escapist": whoever it was must have read some other
books because two concern maturity and growth. The last is somewhat more
metaphysical but concerns acceptance of death rather than fearing it, as a
part of living fully.  Very highly recommended reading.

Of course, they are also *very* good reads!

Dan Davison
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Los Alamos, NM 875545
dd@lanl.gov
dd@lanl.uucp
..cmcl2!lanl!dd

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 5 Dec 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 336

Today's Topics:

	      Miscellaneous - "Contact" Conference (3 msgs) &
                              Time Travel (7 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 88 23:20:30 GMT
From: sandro@mcs.nlm.nih.gov (Michael D'Alessandro)
Subject: "Contact" conference and world building/alien race creation

I have recently learned of a yearly sf conference entitled "Contact."  The
basis of Contact is that a group of people with varying scientific and
non-scientific backgrounds get together for a weekend and design a world
and then go on to design an alien race and culture to populate it.  I find
this concept for a conference fascinating.  Has anyone here ever been to a
"Contact" and could you tell us more about it?

It seems to me that a Contact-like conference could be conducted via the
net, albeit at a slower pace than if it were conducted face to face.  Are
there others interested in world design and building and alien race and
culture design and building who would be interested in participating in
such an electronic Contact?

While my time committment to my medical training precludes me from
organizing such an event, I would be an avid participant, and I would help
to get the ball rolling on it initially.  Anyone interested?

Michael D'Alessandro
The National Library of Medicine
Lister Hill National Center for Biomedical Communications
Educational Technology Branch
sandro@mcs.nlm.nih.gov

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 17:43:36 GMT
From: jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Subject: Re: "Contact" conference and world building/alien race creation

sandro@nlm-mcs.arpa (Michael D'Alessandro) writes:
>I have recently learned of a yearly sf conference entitled "Contact."  The
>basis of Contact is that a group of people with varying scientific and
>non-scientific backgrounds get together for a weekend and design a world
>and then go on to design an alien race and culture to populate it.  I find
>this concept for a conference fascinating.  Has anyone here ever been to a
>"Contact" and could you tell us more about it?
>
>It seems to me that a Contact-like conference could be conducted via the
>net, albeit at a slower pace than if it were conducted face to face.  Are
>there others interested in world design and building and alien race and
>culture design and building who would be interested in participating in
>such an electronic Contact?
>
>While my time committment to my medical training precludes me from
>organizing such an event, I would be an avid participant, and I would help
>to get the ball rolling on it initially.  Anyone interested?

You don't have to get the ball rolling: there is already a mailing list
with a hundred or so people on it.  The Universal Simulator Mialing list

The request to be put onto the Universeal Simulator mailing list, submit
the request to: usml-request@hc.dspo.gov

To post an article to the mailing list, mail to: usml@hc.dspo.gov

Josh Siegel has established an anonymous ftp account for our archives at:
% ftp hc.dspo.gov
% ftp 192.12.184.4
% ftp dspo.dspo.gov

Anyhow, it is in the pub/usml directory.

It contains past traffic and sources to various universe-generating
software as has already been submitted (accretion models, traveller, Other
Suns,...)

James W. Meritt
jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu 

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 19:29:51 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: "Contact" conference and world building/alien race creation

>The basis of Contact is that a group of people with varying scientific and
>non-scientific backgrounds get together for a weekend and design a world
>and then go on to design an alien race and culture to populate it.  I find
>this concept for a conference fascinating.  Has anyone here ever been to a
>"Contact" and could you tell us more about it?

It's a bit more. The final program item is Contact. One group role plays
humans and the other group plays the aliens.  The humans try to make
contact and the alien group determines how the aliens would interpret and
respond to the human overtures.

The Contact I was at is one of the few times I've seen Jerry Pournelle act
responsibly. He was the commander of the security team for the humans and
his actions upon encountering one of the aliens was perfect. It was a model
of how to conduct proper security operations that did not endanger either
the humans or the aliens and minimize any violent confrontation.

Danny Low 
...!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 17:34:40 GMT
From: mmb@lznh.UUCP (<mmb@lznh.uucp>Maurice Burns)
Subject: Time travel

The following is an excerpt from a New York Times article Nov. 22 Pg. C1
[and is reprinted here without permission]

	     3 Scientists Say Travel in Time Isn't So Far Out
			   By Malcolm W. Browne


(deleted)
	Etc. Etc...

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 01:10:30 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Time travel

Yes, the Stanford idea is to take a submicroscopic wormhole and expand it
through some process only physicists understand (i.e., I don't) until
macroscopic objects can pass through.  It may or may not be possible, but
as Maurice Burns pointed out, it can't be ruled out.

Unfortunately, this is one of those time machines that only works as far
back as the time it's switched on.  That is, if we build one in 2050, then
it can never go back any farther than 2050.  This may not be as serious a
limitation as it sounds, though.  Presumably other civilizations much older
somewhere in the universe have already constructed such things, and we
would eventually find one at least 40,000 years old.  Then we would just go
back to 2050 to tell them about it, so it would appear that as soon as we
switched the first one on we could go all the way back past the start of
human history.

I know of at least four time travel possibilities under current physical
theories.  The Stanford wormhole stretcher is one.  The Kerr metric warp is
another one that can take you up to the point where it was switched on and
no further.  It's a torus of rotating ultra-dense matter spinning at near
the speed of light; when you go through, it puts you into a hyperspace with
some funky properties.  Then there's the old rotating cylinder of infinite
length, which I don't think has the time-switched-on limit --
unfortunately, no one's quite sure whether it's possible to fake the
infinite length bit yet.  Finally, there are trajectories through black
holes, between the inner and outer event horizon, that will spit a ship
back out, apparently intact, at some other point in spacetime that we can't
so far predict.

There are obvious and not-so-obvious problems with each of these; no one
really knows whether any of them can be built.  How would you stabilize a
Kerr warp and keep it from imploding?  Can you stretch wormholes to
macroscopic size?  Would the mass of a spaceship passing through disrupt
the balance between the event horizons of a black hole?  Can you flare the
ends of a finite cylinder and get the same effect?  But the mere presence
of four such loopholes is fascinating; it suggests that there are more
waiting to be discovered, and that at least one will prove to be feasible
within the lifetime of the human species.  In short, it makes time travel
science fiction rather than fantasy, and maybe not even far-future science
fiction.  

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 19:47:58 GMT
From: cain@tweezer.ics.uci.edu (Timothy Cain)
Subject: Re: Time travel

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Yes, the Stanford idea is to take a submicroscopic wormhole and expand it
>through some process only physicists understand (i.e., I don't) until
>macroscopic objects can pass through.  It may or may not be possible, but
>as Maurice Burns pointed out, it can't be ruled out.

I have two questions. First, where are you getting this information?  Is
this all from the New York Times? I would like to read about this.

Second, can we make the microscopic wormhole yet? It seems to me that it
doesn't matter if we can't get macroscopic objects thru the hole.
Information is the important thing. If electrons or photons fit, then we
can exchange information with the future, which is just as good as going
there. Of course, all of science's cause-and-effect laws go out the window,
but who cares?! I want to get the next 10 Amber books!

Timothy D. Cain
Department of Information and Computer Science
UC Irvine
cain@ics.uci.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 19:16:09 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Time travel

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) has written:
>Yes, the Stanford idea is to take a submicroscopic wormhole and expand it
>through some process only physicists understand (i.e., I don't) until
>macroscopic objects can pass through.  It may or may not be possible, but
>as Maurice Burns pointed out, it can't be ruled out.

Timothy Cain <cain@tweezer.ics.uci.edu> writes:
>I have two questions. First, where are you getting this information?  Is
>this all from the New York Times? I would like to read about this.

I got it from the Spectra section of the San Francisco Examiner, a weekly
once-over-lightly on various scientific subjects.  I believe there was some
NY Times coverage as well, but I didn't read it.

>Second, can we make the microscopic wormhole yet? It seems to me that it
>doesn't matter if we can't get macroscopic objects thru the hole.
>Information is the important thing. If electrons or photons fit, then we
>can exchange information with the future, which is just as good as going
>there. Of course, all of science's cause-and-effect laws go out the
>window, but who cares?! I want to get the next 10 Amber books!

Signal transmission would be just as good at trashing causality, to be
sure; a pretty good book on this is by James Hogan, but I forget the title.
Good point.

A thought I had last night is that time travel could infinitely expand
creative capacity even without increasing subjective longevity.  Write a
book, spend ten years polishing it, then send it back to before you
started.  That frees you to write another book instead.

We don't have to make the nano-wormhole, as modern physical theory holds
that the universe is already crawling with the little buggers.  I don't
know whether this is part of the Standard Model or not, though.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 21:27:55 GMT
From: c60a-2di@e260-2d.berkeley.edu (The Cybermat Rider)
Subject: Re: Time travel

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
[lots of stuff deleted to save space]
>Signal transmission would be just as good at trashing causality, to be
>sure; a pretty good book on this is by James Hogan, but I forget the
>title.  Good point.

Well, if I understand causality correctly, it'll only be trashed if you
start fooling around with the PAST.  One of my favorite scenarios (don't
ask me which book this is from, coz it's MINE, ALL MINE 8-}) goes like
this:

Sometime in the 4th millenium, a starship captain takes on a top-level
physicist as a passenger.  In a fit of irrationality, they decided to
"hail" 20th Century Earth (don't ask me WHY they'd pick OUR century) from
the vicinity of Alpha Centauri on the radio frequency spectrum.  Just for
fun, they decide to speak - in ENGLISH!

[lots of technical details omitted - I may get around to figgering them
out]

What do you think the history "books" (databases? microfiches?) would say?
"Mankind makes contact with English speaking aliens in 1996"?  THIS IS TOO
RICH!!!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, would the history books undergo a miraculous alteration?
This is akin to the famous "man-goes-back-in-time-and-kills-his-parents-
then-returns-to-his-time" paradox.  Anyone have any idea what's going to
happen?  I strongly suspect that we'll never know until we try it!

>A thought I had last night is that time travel could infinitely expand
>creative capacity even without increasing subjective longevity.  Write a
>book, spend ten years polishing it, then send it back to before you
>started.  That frees you to write another book instead.

Er, are you sure that it'll be the SAME YOU who writes the next book?  It's
an interesting thought experiement, that - take XXX years to perfect your
book, send it back in time and....then what happens??  POOF! you have a
totally new manuscript sitting in front of you?????

Hmmm.....spontaneous creativity, something to look into......

>We don't have to make the nano-wormhole, as modern physical theory holds
>that the universe is already crawling with the little buggers.  I don't
>know whether this is part of the Standard Model or not, though.

Hmmm....imagine the first manned mission to Mars.  "Mission Control, this
is SHLOOOP!!"  An entire spacecraft + crew disappears into the future/past.

Please don't take offense, Tim.  I'm merely trying to illustrate the fact
that we know VERY LITTLE about the physics of wormholes and their relation
to possible time travel.  This matter invites intensive investigation, as
does causality.  If the latter decides to stick to mankind like superglue,
I'd say we're gonna be in BIG TROUBLE if we decide that we'd really like to
take a trip into the past and "buzz" our ancestors!

Adrian Ho
University of California, Berkeley
c60a-2di@web.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 88 21:41:02 GMT
From: shimrod@rhialto.sgi.com (Imagician)
Subject: Re: Time travel

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>...  Signal transmission would be just as good at trashing causality, to
>be sure; a pretty good book on this is by James Hogan, but I forget the
>title.  Good point.  

The title is _Thrice Upon a Time_. Hogan gets around the trashing of
causality by "rewinding the universe" every time a message is sent into the
past. It is hard to notice that the universe has been rewound; you can get
a signal from a future self, but then no more signals because that self has
committed suicide of sorts by contradicting his/her past. There is some
delay time, as I recall.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 88 21:22:11 GMT
From: perry@cat35.cs.wisc.edu (Russell Perry)
Subject: Re: Time travel

c60a-2di@e260-2d.berkeley.edu (The Cybermat Rider) writes:
>tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>Signal transmission would be just as good at trashing causality, to be
>>sure.
>Well, if I understand causality correctly, it'll only be trashed if you
>mess with the PAST.

Well, remember, if we send a message to the future and they send one back,
we have normal causality, but the people from the future trash their
causality (we are their past, so while we aren't messing with our past,
they are).

Makes you wonder if they'd bother to respond, knowing what may well happen.
And they'll know our attempts are coming from the history books.  Only,
will history say they answered, which will make them have to answer since
not answering would change their history anyway?  Oy, I'm getting a
headache.

Russ Perry Jr
5970 Scott St   
Omro WI 54963   
perry@garfield.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 5 Dec 1988        Volume 13 : Issue 337

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Herbert (4 msgs) &
                      Panshin (2 msgs) & Wolfe (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 22:40:00 GMTF
From: gwp@hcx3.ssd.harris.com
Subject: Re: Fanning Heinlein Flame/Flaming Hein

jsalter@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU writes:
> Speaking of gospel, his book "JOB" was pretty controversial when it came
> out.  I still don't understand why.  It was merely a writer's view of
> god, the devil, etc.  LOTS of authors have done the same, is it just
> becuase he is (was *sniff*) an SF author and wasn't supposed to have such
> thoughts?

I was reading "Drawing Down the Moon" (Margot Adler) the other day and it
dawned on me that "JOB" is the result of Heinlein's "collision" with the
neo-pagan movement and neo-pagan thought.  A common idea amongst some
(most?) neo-pagans is that all gods are _equally_ _valid_ and Heinlein took
this idea as a departure point and created "JOB" from it.  Now since he was
brought up in the bible belt in the early part of this century the
religious view Heinlein is most familiar with is that particular flavor of
Christianity, therefore that myth-system and it's relationships define the
primary context of the story. But throughout the story Loki, Odin etc. are
every bit as real and operate on the same level as Jehovah and Lucifer,
they're just less accessible to the hero, Alexander Hergenschiemer
(although the heroine Margareth relates better to the Aesir)

I think the little scene between the fabricated Texas millionaire, Alex,
the millionaires daughter and her obnoxious wiccan boyfriend is a further
example of this.  In a rather obvious fashion RAH is trying to show off
just how much he knows about "the craft".

> Or maybe the controversy was only among those folks who considered him a
> great author.  I considered it almost as good as Friday (which I thought
> was his best modern book).

It's pretty decent SF.  I like it because of the relative uniqueness of
it's approach to it's main subjects (gods, goddesses (hmmm not too many of
those), sin, death, afterlife), at least in the context of SF.  The scenes
with the snobbish angels and the bit about hell being run on an absolute,
cut-throat, free-enterprise system tickled me the most.

Delbert de la Platz
gwp@ssd.harris.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 00:10:18 GMT
From: shimrod@rhialto.sgi.com (Imagician)
Subject: Re: Heinlein

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
> People produce bad books all the time.
> However, THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST-- is not one of them.  It is a book
> badly damaged by its author's tendency to lose himself in lecture, but to
> the mind capable of editing that out, THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST-- is a
> dramatic deconstruction of many of the more simpleminded aspects of
> modern science fiction.  Most people miss the point, and I think that
> that's the way Heinlein wanted it -- "peasants and mathematicians," you
> know.

In my opinion, ..Beast is like so much of Heinlein's later fiction,
starting with some nice premises and characters, and a tightly written
plot, then degenerating after the halfway point into a chaotic morass of
good feeling.  Heinlein's best books are the ones where he doesn't
overextend himself.

Actually, it's rather reminiscent of an amusing dialogue in _Godel, Escher,
Bach_, in which Achilles laments the fact that you can always see the end
of a book coming, because the physical pages are running out. The Tortoise
suggests that the book be padded with filler material. But the material
must be made sufficiently similar to the rest of the book that it doesn't
stand out. Achilles says, "One could even throw in some extraneous
characters or events which are inconsistent with the spirit of the
foregoing story. A naive reader would swallow the whole thing, whereas a
sophisticated reader would be able to spot the dividing line exactly."

Some of Heinlein's fiction strikes me as an attempt to do just this.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 08:08:08 GMT
From: mvp@v7fs1.uucp (Michael Van Pelt)
Subject: Heinlein/Sixth Column

A long time ago in a Heinlein Flame War not too far away, there was some
discussion of his novel "The Sixth Column".

In the classifieds in the December issue of Locus is an ad for a copy of
this book, autographed by Heinlein with the inscription:

"Dear Irving.  This one just goes to show how far hunger can
push a man.    Bob.    Friday the 13'th, Oct. '50."

By the way, in the same issue, there's an article about, yes **A NEW
HEINLEIN BOOK COMING OUT!!!** Entitled "Grumbles From the Grave", it's "..a
collection of letters planned by Heinlein himself for posthumous
publication ... include Heinlein's views on writing fiction, his
relationships with publishers and editors, and personal reminiscences ...
arguments over _Starship Troopers_ and _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and
other work.  ... It will be released in hardcover by Del Rey Books in 1990,
and in paperback the following year."

1990?  Egad!  What's taking so long?

Mike Van Pelt
...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 16:54:36 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

gwills@maths.tcd.ie (Graham Wills) writes:
>Dune is easily a great book, and comparing it to Heinlein is laughable.

Well, yes, DUNE is a great book.  I don't know about "easily" -- it's
flawed in many ways.  Talkiness is *not* one of its flaws, however; the
book is based, quite rightly, in its characters' interiority, to which end
Herbert makes use of the now-unfashionable "third person omniscient."

Comparing it to Heinlein -- laughable?  Yes, but not because one is
"better" than the other; rather because it's like comparing (say) Akira
Kurosawa to Stanley Kubrick.  What they do is essentially different.

While I'm on about DUNE, why is it that nobody ever seems to notice the
inherently fascist nature of the book?  The myth of an inherently superior
subspecies, whether it be the "humans" the Bene Gesserit adore ("We sort
through _people_ to find _humans_.") or the Fremen who rise in ethnic
purity to conquer a universe, is endemic and pandemic to the universe of
DUNE.  This is particularly amusing when you realize what a darling of the
liberal chic DUNE became in the '70s due to its ecological content...

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 16:56:59 GMT
From: steyn@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>While I'm on about DUNE, why is it that nobody ever seems to notice the
>inherently fascist nature of the book?  The myth of an inherently superior
>subspecies, whether it be the "humans" the Bene Gesserit adore ("We sort
>through _people_ to find _humans_.") or the Fremen who rise in ethnic
>purity to conquer a universe, is endemic and pandemic to the universe of
>DUNE.  This is particularly amusing when you realize what a darling of the
>liberal chic DUNE became in the '70s due to its ecological content...

_Dune_ is definitely not fascist.  The Fremen jihad is _not_ treated as a
good thing.  Paul's very greatness becomes his downfall.  He is so ven-
erated that his subjects all ignore him. 1/2:-) Further, both the Fremen
and Bene Gesserit were ultimately failures (this is all clarified later,
but it's important to keep in mind that Herbert always had a trilogy in
mind when he wrote _Dune_.  The first book sets Paul up as a great hero,
and the next two show how his qualities work against him.  The whole set of
books is an examination of the messiah phenomenon.)  

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 21:13:46 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
> Well, yes, DUNE is a great book.  I don't know about "easily" -- it's
> flawed in many ways.  Talkiness is *not* one of its flaws, however; the
> book is based quite rightly, in its characters' interiority, to which end
> Herbert makes use of the now-unfashionable "third person omniscient."

Who Dat? Who Dat? Who Dat Sez _Dune_ Isah Great Book? I've read many better
books than _Dune_, like _The Brothers Karamazov_ by Fyodor Dostoevski,
_Helliconia Summer_ by Brian Aldiss, and many better books with far better
characters and far better plotlines than _Dune_ in the sf ghetto.

>Comparing it to Heinlein -- laughable?  Yes, but not because one is
>"better" than the other; rather because it's like comparing (say) Akira
>Kurosawa to Stanley Kubrick.  What they do is essentially different.

No, no way is Heinlein is any Kurosawa/Kubrick. And neither is Herbert any
great director. Listen, Herbert wrote one good book, Dune_, he was a
mediocre writer in his earlier books, and he tried to continue _Dune_ into
so many sequels, it became laughable. I'm not going to say anything good
about RAH.

> While I'm on about DUNE, why is it that nobody ever seems to notice the
> inherently fascist nature of the book?  The myth of an inherently
> superior subspecies, whether it be the "humans" the Bene Gesserit adore
> ("We sort through _people_ to find _humans_.") or the Fremen who rise in
> ethnic purity to conquer a universe, is endemic and pandemic to the
> universe of DUNE.  This is particularly amusing when you realize what a
> darling of the liberal chic DUNE became in the '70s due to its ecological
> content...

I think if Benito Mussolini were alive today, he would write like L. Ron
Hubbard. Baron Harkonnen in the _Dune_ movie reminds me of Il Duce. The
Fremen are akin to the Arab word 'fedaykin', are kind of like the Wahabbis
mullahs in Saudi Arabia. There are a lot worse places to be in the Arab
world than Saudi Arabia. Like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and to the
southwest of Saudi continent, a quabbling bunch of Arabs in Oman, North and
South Yemen, and of course the U.A.E.  Only Kuwaitis aren't fundamentalist
Shiites or Sunnis. I believe that the Bene Gesserit are kinda like a female
Jesuit society. But the word fascism must be connected to Adolph Hitler
forever, because he was so mad he was given the keys to his megamaniacal
Aryan purity to unlock the door of racial genocide.

Another thing about _Dune_, is a drug-addicted populace (of course, it
prolonged their lives). Out-of-body-experiences, mysticism, and
clairvoyance dreams in the waking state. The whole book was about
'melange': a mixture (Old French 'mislar': to mix). It was steeped in
blue-eyed mysticism like Hitler was about Aryan racial purity, with blonde
hair and blue eyes. There seems to be some connection between the two. I
wonder did Frank Herbert have to use an Old French word, where there are a
lot of arab words that contain 'mixture' in them?

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 03:07:12 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

steyn@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Gavin Steyn) writes:
>_Dune_ is definitely not fascist.  Fremen jihad is _not_ treated as a
>good thing.

I said nothing about the jihad.

What I said was, that *all* characters whose political views are discussed
at any length -- the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen are merely the most
blatant examples -- hold the view that some genetically defined group of
people is intrinsically superior to all others.

This may be true is some specific, quantitative way (e.g., you can isolate
a group of people who are all taller than the others, and there is some
genetic basis for this, discounting the tendency to drift toward the norm).
However, to hold it true in some sense of general quality, is intrinsically
and necessarily fascistic.

>Paul's very greatness becomes his downfall.  He is so venerated that his
>subjects all ignore him. 1/2:-) Further, both the Fremen and Bene Gesserit
>were ultimately failures (this is all clarified later, but it's important
>to keep in mind that Herbert always had a trilogy in mind when he wrote
>_Dune_.  The first book sets Paul up as a great hero, and the next two
>show how his qualities work against him.  The whole set of books is an
>examination of the messiah phenomenon.)

Unquestionably true.  Further, I do not deny that it is an excellent and
valuable examination of same.

However, and this is my point, it is a book that makes dangerous
(fascistic) assumptions.  These assumptions are necessary if DUNE is to
"happen" the way it happens.

But when discussing the politics of a book (NOT of its author; even if I
thought Herbert a fascist, which I do not, "speak no ill of the dead"), the
attitudes expressed by a character (e.g., Paul's horror at the jihad) are
of less significance than the character's actions, and the events taking
place; which are in turn less significant than the underlying assumptions
that allow those events to take place.

In order for DUNE to take place, the Bene Gesserit must be right about
"sorting people to find humans"; the Fremen must be correct about their
innate superiority -- at least as a war machine.  The book *does* take
place, so those things must be regarded as among the book's assumptions.

And these are fascistic assumptions.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 19:53:00 GMT
From: hpcea!hpda!procase!tyler@hplabs.hp.com (William B. Tyler)
Subject: Thurb

Whatever happened to Alexei Panshin?  I thoroughly enjoyed his Anthony
Villiers/Torve the Trog series, and would like to see more from him.  Is he
dead?  Not writing?  Enquiring minds want to know.

Bill Tyler
...(tolerant|hpda)!procase!tyler

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 06:22:46 GMT
From: etg!acheron!clarke@uunet.uu.net (Ed Clarke)
Subject: Re: Thurb

tyler@procase.UUCP (William B. Tyler) writes:
> Whatever happened to Alexei Panshin?  I thoroughly enjoyed his Anthony
> Villiers/Torve the Trog series, and would like to see more from him.  Is
> he dead?  Not writing?  Enquiring minds want to know.

Me too!  Also - were there more than two books in this series?  I remember
'The Thurb Revolution' and 'Masque ???', but no others.  These were really
fun books and I'd like to see more.

Ed Clarke
uunet!bywater!acheron!clarke

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 23:39:32 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe, Severian, and Latro

>Has there been in the last few months or will there be in the near future
>anything published by Gene Wolfe, particularly followups to _Soldier of
>the Mist_ and _The Urth of the New Sun_?

No. His latest is "There are Doors" (Tor hardcover), which is unrelated to
anything else (except, from what I can tell having just started it, Free
Live Free in spirit...). Based on what he told me a while back, his next
book will be the follow-up to Soldier of the Mist (title unfortunately
forgotten....) probably about mid-year. There are going to be more
followups of both series, but I don't know the details.

>Also, does anyone share my suspicion that Latro (from SofM) and Severian
>(_The Book of the New Sun_ and TUofNS) are the same person?  I don't have
>any hard evidence for this, but the ending of TUofNS leaves this
>possibility open

While we didn't discuss this point directly, from my discussions with Wolfe
I don't see this as being true. He views them as separate series, not
Asimovesque independent series wedged together into an artificial
similarity.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 88 21:30:31 GMT
From: jagardner@watmath.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe, Severian, and Latro

brian@alzabo.UUCP (Brian Hilchie) writes:
>Does anyone share my suspicion that Latro (from SofM) and Severian (_The
>Book of the New Sun_ and TUofNS) are the same person?

To me, it's pretty clear that Soldier of the Mist is a "book-end" to the
Book of the New Sun.  In other words, Wolfe got SotM by reversing most of
BotNS.  For example, Severian remembers everything while Latro remembers
nothing. While everything in New Sun was strange and aged and decadent (to
a greater or lesser extent), everything in SotM is very simple and "pure":
for example, cities have names like "Truth".

There is a strong parallelism between Severian's companions and Latro's:
the young innocent woman; the old sorceror/sorceress who is not what (s)he
seems; the giant; and so on.  I'm afraid it's been a long time since I read
SotM, and it hasn't stuck in my memory as well as BotNS; but I remember
saying "Aha!" over and over again as familiar incidents from BotNS popped
up in SotM, rearranged or reversed.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 12 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 338

Today's Topics:

	    Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Boyett & Card & Carter &
                    Cook & DeCamp & Heinlein (6 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 15:12:57 GMT
From: savax!royer@dspvax.mit.edu (tom royer)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>>I just finished a book by Piers Anthony, "Ghost".  It was the first time I
>
>   Disregarding that, it's still not my favorite book of his. Anthony
>wobbles back and forth over the line between storytelling (which tends to
>be uninteresting, like _Ghost_ or _Macroscope_), and moralizing (which
>tends to be uninteresting, like _Bio of a Space Tyrant_). When he's in
>between, I enjoy his work enormously. Things like _Incarnations of
>Immortality_, the _Split Infinity

My all-time favorite Anthony work is the ``Battle Circle'' trilogy.  It's
actually three short novels:
   Sos, the Rope
   Var, the Stick
   Neq, the Sword 
which are now published as a single volume.  A really terrific
post-holocaust story (stories ?  -- the three pieces are very connected).

This work can be hard to find, but it's definitely worth the search.

Tom Royer
Sanders Associates
Nashua, NH  03061-2034
(603)-885-9171

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 06:47:43 GMT
From: rang@cpsin3.cps.msu.edu (Anton Rang)
Subject: Piers Anthony (books to read)

Since nobody else has mentioned them (that I've seen), I'd like to
recommend some more Piers Anthony books.  It was a trilogy, written quite a
while ago (don't recall exactly when).  It's three books (is this his only
3-book trilogy? :-), and they are:

   Omnivore
   Orn
   OX   <-- with some funny way of writing the X

  They're space exploration books, essentially, and raise some interesting
issues.  At least, I liked them....

Anton Rang
Michigan State Universit
rang@cpswh.cps.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 20:13:47 GMT
From: h52y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony

boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (John Boswell) writes:
>By the way... has Anthony written any more books in the "Apprentice Adept"
>series?  I've read only the first three, and they are great! (Split
>Infinity, Blue Adept, Juxtaposition).

Yes, sadly, he has.  The first three, I agree, are a wonder.  A year or two
back, he released "Out of Phaze", book 4 of the series.  I rushed out and
got it in hardcover.  I have regretted it ever since.

A fifth book, "Robot Adept", has since been released.  I may get it when it
goes to paperback, but if it's the same quality as "Out of Phaze", I will
neither read nor buy book 6.  Since _Out of.._ is now in paperback, you
might want to pick it up, but if possible, I'd recommend reading a friend's
copy or something.

Tim Lynch
H52Y@CRNLVAX5 (BITNET)
H52Y@VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU (INTERNET)
...!rochester!cornell!vax5.cit.cornell.edu!h52y (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 88 01:51:54 GMT
From: bobby@hot.caltech.edu (Bobby Bodenheimer)
Subject: Inquiry about Boyett's _Architect of Sleep_

 Does anyone know why there hasn't been a sequel to _The Architect of
Sleep_ by Stephen R. Boyett, published by Ace in 1986? The book was clearly
intended to be the first book in a longer series.

 Thanks,

Bobby Bodenheimer
BITNET: bobby@caltech.bitnet              
ARPA  : bobby@csvax.caltech.edu           
UUCP  : {amdahl,ames!elroy}!cit-vax!bobby 

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 17:12:12 GMT
From: jagardner@watmath.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Card, Alvin Maker, and Mormonism

> So on the whole I would say who ever thinks OSC is a preaching Mormonism
> in his books is full of it. He just tells a great tale.

Card explicitly said (at Ad Astra, an SF Con in Toronto) that the Alvin
Maker books are a fictionalized re-telling of the life of Joseph Smith,
founder of Mormonism.  (A Smith is a Maker; Joseph Smith had an older
brother named Alvin.)

This does not mean that the books are necessarily *preaching* Mormonism.
SF writers draw on religious belief systems all the time without preaching.
Barry Hughart's "Bridge of Birds", for example, draws on Chinese beliefs
(most of which are not taken seriously in that part of the world, but some
of which are still current) but we don't think for a minute that he is
trying to "convert" us.

I think the same applies to the Alvin Maker books.  Card is drawing upon
the belief system of "his people", some of which is specifically Mormon,
some of which is generic American backwoods folklore, some of which comes
from the modern SF community.  I don't see anything wrong with that --
writing from love of one's cultural roots can give added depth to a story.
However, one can't deny that the roots are there.

I imagine that Mormon references will increase over the course of the
six-book series.  After all, in the two books released so far, Maker/Smith
hasn't really begun to get the movement organized.  Mormonism doesn't exist
as yet.  It will be interesting to see how Card handles the religious
aspects as he continues to fictionalize; it strikes me as a very delicate
balancing act.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 10:10:00 GMT
From: frog!meadow@necntc.nec.com (Margery Meadow)
Subject: Defending Lin Carter's Memory

bondc@iuvax.UUCP (Clay M Bond) writes:
>Graham Wills:
>> After reading a list of Lin Carter's works, I thought I should
>> publish a list of her books worth reading :
>
>Huh???  So when, pray tell, did Carter get a sex change operation?

Poor Lin.  Not only did he not get a sex change operation, he's been dead
for about two years (long nasty cancer battle).

I have nothing good to say about his writing either, but I expected someone
else to remember and appreciate the Good Works he performed as editor of
the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series in the late 1960s.  This series enabled
me to discover George MacDonald, David Lindsay, Lord Dunsany, Clark Ashton
Smith, William Morris, and (most thrillingly) H. P. Lovecraft.  At the
time, few of these remarkable and important works were otherwise available
to teenagers like me who were not antiquarian book collectors and could not
afford Arkham House limited editions!  I'm grateful that I got a chance to
thank him personally.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 88 05:25:49 GMT
From: mkkuhner@codon1.berkeley.edu (Mary K. Kuhner;335 Mulford)
Subject: Re: Author Lists: Cook

hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>He's also edited Dragons of Darkness (1981) and Dragons of Light (1984).
>Has anyone read these collections?

I have read _Dragons of Darkness_--one or two of the stories pleased me,
and I'm not a big fan of anthologies, especially theme anthologies.

The one story that really stands out for me is Gene Cook's "Filed Teeth,"
which is set in the Dread Empire storyline somewhere on the periphery of
the action.  I encountered this story in a rather peculiar way, however,
and I don't know if its impact would have been the same otherwise.

A friend wrote a one-player fantasy roleplaying scenario based on this
story, without telling me the source.  The game went exceptionally well,
and I wrote a 20-page "fictionalization" of the story as a writing exercise
(still not knowing the source).  Then I read the actual story.  Weird!
There were long stretches of similarity, especially the ending, though
practically all the details were different.  An interesting experiment in
translation from one medium to a quite different one.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 22:54:55 GMT
From: ABC102@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject: Re: Author Lists: L. Sprague de Camp

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) says:
>I'm looking for an obscure de Camp title.
>
>It was a paperback circa 1960-1967 with two stories in it.
>
>Story 1, about the Resistance after an alien invasion, where the invaders
>were sort of a green blooded kangaroo which

			    * SPOILER WARNING *


>...needed a mental amplifier helmet to boost their brain power enough to
>think.
>
>Story 2, The mainland USA is repressive, but Hawaii is free having
>invented a biological Maxwells Demon, which provides their power.

     I don't know anything about story 2, but story 1 is named "Divide and
Rule," and can also be found in an anthology called _Cosmic_Knights_.
          
Alex Clark

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 15:53:39 GMT
From: vanhaeskola@cc.helsinki.fi (Jari 'Jarppa' Vanha-Eskola)
Subject: More about Heinlein

   Whatever you say, Heinlein's one of my favourites! Brain damage or not (
I wonder why that doesn't show in his books?). Anyway, I've read
'Stranger', 'Time Enough for Love', 'Number of the Beast', 'Friday', 'JOB'
and some other not so long books from RAH. However, his first books don't
seem to be so interesing as the more recent ones (named above). I'm
seriously considering not reading his earlier works to maintain this high
profile I have! The shorter books are said to be written for young people
and I tend to agree (not being too old myself, though).

   By the way, anybody know if the story of Lazarus Long continues in any
of his books after Time Enough for Love?  If so, please let me know...

Jari Vanha-Eskola
VANHAESKOLA@FINUH
vanhaeskola@cc.helsinki.FI

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 00:19:27 GMT
From: rang@cpsin3.cps.msu.edu (Anton Rang)
Subject: strange time travel stories (sort of minor spoiler, not really)

Since everyone seems to think "All You Zombies" is the only strange SF
story by Heinlein :-), I thought I'd point out that "By His Bootstraps" is
also a strange time travel story.  At least, it's about a guy who winds up
looping forward and backward in time....

Anton Rang
Michigan State University
rang@cpswh.cps.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 17:52:55 GMT
From: husc2!north2@husc6.harvard.edu (north2)
Subject: Robert Heinlein

All right, as promised, an article that will _hopefully_ stir up at least a
little discussion . . .

The late Robert Heinlein.  The grandfather of science fiction.  Any serious
reader of Heinlein can see the great changes in his writing from the
beginning to the end, from the early short stories such as "The Unpleasant
Profession of Jonathan Hoag" to his last work, _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_.

Did Heinlein's style mature and improve over this time?  Or did the Master
grow old and stale?

For me, the question is a particularly difficult one.  I _love_ just about
everything Heinlein has ever written.  But yet, I find myself bothered by
the dramatic differences between early and late Heinlein.  It seems to me
that something is missing in _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_ (the title itself
is enigmatic--did Heinlein recognize that this was to be his last book?).
Heinlein's early short stories had a certain energy, a certain freshness
about them which is missing (IMHO) in some of his late novels.

I feel that, for example, his short story collection _6 X H_ (also
published under _The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag and other
stories_) contains some of the greatest science fiction of all time.
Stories like "All You Zombies" and "They", which deal with some of the
classic themes of all time, to the well-known "And He Built a Crooked
House", to the somewhat different "The Man Who Travelled in Elephants".

I don't have a real answer to my question, just a gut feeling.  As I said,
I love all of Heinlein's writing, and re-read everything of his I own
fairly often.  But his later works, especially starting with _The Cat That
Walks Through Walls_, leave me feeling somehow disappointed.

Anyone else?

Christopher North
north2@husc2.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 08:07:59 GMT
From: jsalter@polyslo.calpoly.edu (Jim Salter )
Subject: Re: Author request

Iain Odlin writes:
>The story you have described is "All You Zombies" in the anthology "6xH."
>Note that this is not the original title, but the title it was re-printed
>under.  I don't know the original title.

I just picked up a copy of the original 6xH and it says the original title
is "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathon Hoag" which most Heinlein fans
will recognize.

I wonder why it changed and then changed back?

James A. Salter
jsalter@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU
...!ucbvax!voder!polyslo!jsalter

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 88 06:07:24 GMT
From: f942.n135.z1!Tim_Lavan@rutgers.edu (Tim Lavan)
Subject: Re: Author request
 
> I just picked up a copy of the original 6xH and it says the original
> title is "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathon Hoag" which most Heinlein
> fans will recognize.
> 
> I wonder why it changed and then changed back? 
 
More importantly, when did the story now called "The Unpleasant Profession
of Jonathan Hoag" take that name??  In the short story collection <The
Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag> there is both a novella by that
name, and the short story "All You Zombies..."
 
My 30th Anniversary Issue of F&SF, which reprinted the story, does not list
any alternate title.
 
"Jane" started out biologically female, but was discovered to be a true
hermaphrodite, and corrected to male following her pregnancy and the birth
of her child ...
 
Whatever the facts, this is one of the most elegantly constructed and
inter- twisted (sounds good, you get the idea) time travel stories I have
ever read.  I enjoy it immensely every time I reread it.
 
Tim Lavan
UUCP: ...uunet!gould!umbio!medsoft!942!Tim_Lavan
ARPA: Tim_Lavan@f942.n135.z1.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 88 05:10:39 GMT
From: aapetter@tybalt.caltech.edu (Al Petterson)
Subject: Re: More about Heinlein
 
vanhaeskola@cc.helsinki.fi (Jari 'Jarppa' Vanha-Eskola) writes:
>Whatever you say, Heinlein's one of my favourites!

Mine too. Pleased to meet you. Not enough of us around.

>I've read 'Stranger', 'Time Enough for Love', 'Number of the Beast',
>'Friday', 'JOB' and some other not so long books from RAH. However, his
>first books don't seem to be so interesting as the more recent ones

You're in a definite minority with that one. #otB is one of the most panned
and flamed works on the net -- though few people even mention his
juveniles.

>I'm seriously considering not reading his earlier works to maintain this
>high profile I have!

Do you mean "opinion?" In any case, I'd recommend _Citizen of the Galaxy_
and _Starship Troopers_ (yes, I know that's not really a juvenile) for more
good examples of his style and philosophy as it evolved. Also, his _The
Past Through Tomorrow_ lays the groundwork for TEfL.

>The shorter books are said to be written for young people and I tend to
>agree (not being too old myself, though).
>
>By the way, anybody know if the story of Lazarus Long continues in any of
>his books after Time Enough for Love?  If so, please let me know...

uh... uh.... uh...
better put the "SPOILER" warning here, in case the human exists ("human" in
the DUNE sense, of course :-) who has not yet read nor heard about RAH's
latest stuff... 

Yah, you might say so. You've read #otB, you say. LL appears briefly along
with the rest of his brood there. Then read _Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
which again briefly mentions him (rather unsympathetically, I might add.)
Following which, his LAST novel, _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_, is the
memoirs of Maureen Johnson (LL's mother.)

* spoiler end *

To understand what all the fuss is about (concerning RAH) I (and other
netfolk) recommend "Rah Rah R.A.H.!" by Spider Robinson (for that matter, I
recommend anything and everything else by the man) as a (biased, certainly,
but who isn't?) explication of the arguments against RAH's
quality/worldview followed by rather effective rebuttals to same.

(I should be cautious, I guess, about recommending RAH's later stuff and
some of Robinson's stuff to this person, who admits to being "not so old
myself"... could I be publicly flogged for contributing to the delinquency
of a minor? I hope so -- it sounds like fun ;^)

The man (RAH) has a damned uncompromising worldview... and a lot of his
ideas don't go down very easily to those who don't agree... in large part
because he really is a damn good storyteller and can be awfully convincing
when he asserts something that the reader has always "assumed" to be
manifestly false...

I guess _I_ really admire the way he makes me think. Also the way his books
stay glued to my hands and eyes from the moment I pick them up to the final
page. (I've failed _more_ classes that way...)

My apologies for being wordy. 

Al
aapetter@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 12 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 339

Today's Topics:

		   Miscellaneous - Time Travel (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 00:58:44 GMT
From: greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman)
Subject: Re: Time travel

c60a-2di@e260-2d.berkeley.edu writes:
>tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>[lots of stuff deleted to save space] Signal transmission would be just
>>as good at trashing causality, to be sure; a pretty good book on this is
>>by James Hogan, but I forget the title.  Good point.
>
>Well, if I understand causality correctly, it'll only be trashed if you
>start fooling around with the PAST.

Right, and it is exactly because of this paradox that time travel into the
past is believed impossible.

Time travel into the future is known to be possible, as predicted by the
theory of relativity (I forget which one and the reference book isn't
handy).  Simply accelerate to relativistic velocities, travel for a while,
and come back to an Earth which has aged much more than you.

Of course, Heinlein wrote all about this sort of travel (via cryosleep) in
"The Door into Summer".

>Seriously though, would the history books undergo a miraculous alteration?
>This is akin to the famous "man-goes-back-in-time-and-kills-his-parents-
>then-returns-to-his-time" paradox.  Anyone have any idea what's gonna
>happen?  I strongly suspect that we'll never know until we try it!

I think the implications of the wormhole thing are different than what you
have proposed.  Slipping something through a wormhole is only time travel
in that it lets you travel distances in a period of time that violate the
upper limit on velocity (namely the speed of light).  So strictly speaking,
wormholes give you faster-than-light drives.  This implication was alluded
to in Tar Trek: The Motion Sickness.

Greg Wageman
Schlumberger Technologies
ARPA:  greg%sentry@spar.slb.com
UUCP: ...!decwrl!spar!sentry!greg

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 16:14:56 GMT
From: rti!ntcsd1!dmc@mcnc.mcnc.org (David Clemens)
Subject: Re: Time travel

shimrod@rhialto.SGI.COM (Imagician) writes:
>The title is _Thrice Upon a Time_. Hogan gets around the trashing of
>causality by "rewinding the universe" every time a message is sent into
>the past. It is hard to notice that the universe has been rewound; you can
>get a signal from a future self, but then no more signals because that
>self has committed suicide of sorts by contradicting his/her past. There
>is some delay time, as I recall.

   I don't know if anybody else thought of this, but when I read this book
I thought of a different ending, although it might be better for a short
story.
   Imagine the point in the book where they get send receive the message
that enables them to avoid the problem of the mini-black holes. They sit
and discuss the problem and how to solve it, thereby stopping a future
tragedy. At that point this idea poped into my head for this ending:
   After they solve the future problem, a message comes back in time
alerting them of another future tragedy to avert. They start to solve this
one, when suddenly there is another message for a different problem. Then
another and another...(Fade to black while focussed on the message
receiving machine spouting message after message. Each warning of a future
accident and causing a shift in the probable future and thereby setting up
the possibility of another tragedy)

   Well, any comments?

   Please mail...

The above ideas were the result of the head-on collision of two apparently
random thought processes in the lower portion of my brain.

David Clemens
{backbone}mcnc!rti!ntcsd1!dmc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 05:32:46 GMT
From: marco@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Peter Dimarco)
Subject: Re: Time travel

perry@garfield.CS.WISC.EDU (Russell Perry) writes:
 [ TEXT DELETED ]
>Well, remember, if we send a message to the furture and they send one
>back, we have normal causality, but the people from the future trash their
>causality (we are their past, so while we aren't messing with our past,
>they are).
>
>Makes you wonder if they'd bother to respond, knowing what may well
>happen.  And they'll know our attempts are coming from the history books.
>Only, will history say they answered, which will make them have to answer
>since not answering would change their history anyway?  Oy, I'm getting a
>headache.

   A while back, I heard about this theory/hypothesis/wild guess that
suggested that time could be viewed as a tree.  That is, rather than saying
that the universe follows a "time line" with causality providing the
transition from one moment in time to the next, the idea was that every
time a situation arose where an acausal event occured (via quantum
mechanics), the universe would create duplicates of itself, allowing all
possible outcomes from that event to be realized.  The universe forks
itself, like an NDTM.  (I'm not making this up, honest.  The source for
this didn't use comp sci terminology, but it seems to be the simplest way
to convey the idea.)  So a time line is now just a path from your present
"leaf" to the "root" (the big bang).

   Consequences:
 1) All possible universes at time T exist simultaneously. 
 2) Time travel to the past involves moving along a one-way path towards
the big bang, but time travel into the future means negotiating an
astronomical number of branches in order to get where you want. 
 3) If you go back into the past to change history, you will succeed
as you intended (if physically possible), muck up history in a way you
did not intend, *AND* fail entirely, all at the same "time."  It all
depends on which branch of the future you check.

   This is probably even more confusing than the previous discussion...
and I don't claim to believe it myself.  I would like to know if anyone out
in net.land has heard of this before, and whether it's a total farce.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 16:53:15 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Time travel

Timothy Cain <cain@tweezer.ics.uci.edu> writes:
>.... Of course, all of science's cause-and-effect laws go out the window,
>but who cares?!

And the cause-and-effect laws are the main objection to things like warp
drives and other FTL phenomena.

And by coincidence, there is a report in an electronics journal about
electrical signals being propagated at 600,000m/s. (Has anyone seen this
and can comment?)

I prefer to think of the speed of light as being the preferred speed of
photons, and that there is nothing in principle odd about photons moving
faster or slower than light. It is just VERY unlikely you could ever detect
one.

I'll wait a while yet before I buy shares in a company producing warp
drives. :->

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 13:19:54 GMT
From: gwills@maths.tcd.ie (Graham Wills)
Subject: Re: Time travel

c60a-2di@e260-2d.berkeley.edu (The Cybermat Rider) writes:
>Seriously though, would the history books undergo a miraculous alteration?
>This is akin to the famous "man-goes-back-in-time-and-kills-his-parents-
>then-returns-to-his-time" paradox.  Anyone have any idea what's gonna
>happen?  I strongly suspect that we'll never know until we try it!

I used to have a 20 minute walk to get to the train station to catch my
train into Trinity every day, and since 20m is not enough time to think
about anything *serious*, I used to think about problems like these
paradoxes (paradocii? : no, not seriously) and came up with the following.
Comments, anyone?

THEORY #1

Time travel is impossible.
This is so boring it is obviously untrue.

THEORY #2

There are an infinite number of universes. Assume for simplicity that they
are countably infinite. Label them U0, U1, U2, ...  Now, (letting time be
discrete also) at time t we get the following possible connections :
U0 <-- Ut              U1 <-- U(t+1)  ...       Un <-- U(t+n) ...
So here is the scenario :

I am born in U(a). I live normally until I get to time T in that Universe.
Denote that U(a)[T]. I then travel back in time, but actually SWITCH to
Universe U(a-T) at a previous time and affect that universe from now on.
From my point of view. I travel in time & modify the past. No problem.
From any U(a) observers points of view. I disappear. The Expt failed.  From
any U(a-T) point of view. I appear. I affect the world inc. possibly my
`alter ego`. Weird, but nothing goes bang.

THEORY #3

This is my favourite ( as a statistician )
We adopt the viewpoint of a meta-observer (able to view all time
simultaneously) The gist of the theory is that if ANY time loop is caused,
then the loop goes round and round until no paradoxes are left. it still
goes round and round, of course, but it does it the same way every time.
An example is the simplest thing.

I am in a hermetically sealed room surrounded by 6ft steel walls (No,
actually, my office is not like that at the moment...). I have a time
machine with me.  I wait 2 hours and then travel backwards 1 hour. I have
now done two things :
(1) Altered the past.
(2) Caused a paradox.

Since I altered the past, from our meta-viewpoint, it follows a different
path. I could (eg) kill myself. this means I don't travel back and I have
done (1) and (2) again. So we get a new pattern. this continues on until we
get to a stable situation, such as the machine fails and I die (no (1) or
(2)).

Or I could decide not to kill myself adn travel back to the future. My
previous self decides to continue on, and when he returns, acts exactly as
my future self did/will/something.

What this means is that if I try to cause a paradox, from a meta-viewpoint
I travel round and round the time loop until some event prevents my
creating a paradox and altering the past. Since there was no alteration, it
will continue as before and either the loop breaks ( I fail to travel back
) or I set up a stable loop.

From my point of view: I either (1) Fail to travel because of death/machine
failure etc. OR (2) I meet a future self, and later travel back to meet a
previous self, acting exactly as I did before.

MORAL: All those SF characters agonizing over whether they should do 'what
they know MUST happen' needn't have worried. The worst they could do was
re-write part of their own time-line ( In which case the next most likely
time line is the statistically expected one ), but doing in the Universe is
extreeeemely unlikely

Sorry, I didn't realise the length

Graham W
TCD
Ireland.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 20:56:30 GMT
From: stolaf!christnp@cs.umn.edu (Doctor X)
Subject: Re: Time travel

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) wrote:
>I believe there was some NY Times coverage as well, but I didn't read it.
 
Yes, there was.  Nothing worth reading, though.

>Signal transmission would be just as good at trashing causality, to be
>sure; a pretty good book on this is by James Hogan, but I forget the
>title.

Very true, the book was _Thrice Upon a Time_; I recommend it highly.

I have read the article in _Physics Review Letters_.  It was written by
very competent physicists who loaded the article with caveats about their
speculations.  Their claim was that _if_ we can do a whole bunch of
difficult things _and_ if the universe behaves in a certain manner then FTL
and time travel _might_ be possible.  Of course no newspaper in the country
could possibly be expected to do anything but blow the whole story out of
proportion.  This is not to say that the paper isn't any good, on the
contrary it is a very important piece of work, it's just that the popular
press has greatly exaggerated it's claims.  If you don't understand the
paper or don't have a copy of PRL then I would suggest reading a brief
description of the paper in a recent issue of _Science News_ (I forget
which one.)

Nick Christenson

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 01:51:01 GMT
From: barry@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Time travel

marco@sbgrad6.UUCP (Pete DiMarco) writes:
>   A while back, I heard about this theory/hypothesis/wild guess that
>suggested that time could be viewed as a tree.  That is, rather than
>saying that the universe follows a "time line" with causality providing
>the transition from one moment in time to the next, the idea was that
>every time a situation arose where an acausal event occured (via quantum
>mechanics), the universe would create duplicates of itself, allowing all
>possible outcomes from that event to be realized.  The universe forks
>itself, like an NDTM.  [...]  This is probably even more confusing than
>the previous discussion...  and I don't claim to believe it myself.  I
>would like to know if anyone out in net.land has heard of this before, and
>whether it's a total farce.

   Oh, it's no farce. It's usually known as the Many-Worlds hypothesis, and
it's an alternative paradigm to the Copenhagen interpretation for
understanding quantum reality, in particular the collapse of the
probablility wave into a discrete event. It's perfectly respectable. Only
problen is that, since no communication is possible between the alternate
realities, Many-Worlds is not testably distinguishable from the standard
Copenhagen interpretation (which, to be a bit flip, explains the paradoxes
of QM by saying "hey, live with it" :-).
   Introducing time-travel would allow you to distinguish between
Many-Worlds and Copenhagen. I think. You'd remember the alternate
realities, and could even inhabit a timeline wherein you were never, would
never be, born. Many worlds, QED. The Many-Worlds hypothesis works well to
resolve potential paradoxes in time travel, to the point that it's nearly
unavoidable if you want to allow time travel. Then again, maybe there's no
possible way to travel back in time. Many-Worlds also has weaknesses as a
paradigm. It postulates an infinite number of universes just to explain a
tiny subatomic quandary - not very elegant.  And it doesn't get rid of true
randomness. Instead of the state of a particle being random, it's the state
of the particle in your particular branch of reality, and why are you (the
you that just measured the particle) seeing this branch, and not some
other? Looks random.
   Well, it's a fun idea to play with, anyway.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{most major sites}!ames!eos!barry

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 88 15:18:09 GMT
From: dalcs!iisat!paulg@uunet.uu.net (Paul Gauthier)
Subject: Re: Time travel

c60a-2di@e260-2d.berkeley.edu writes:
>tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>[lots of stuff deleted to save space] Signal transmission would be just
>>as good at trashing causality, to be sure; a pretty good book on this is
>>by James Hogan, but I forget the title.  Good point.
>
> Well, if I understand causality correctly, it'll only be trashed if you
> start fooling around with the PAST.  One of my favorite scenarios (don't
> ask me which book this is from, coz it's MINE, ALL MINE 8-}) goes like
> this:

   But from the point of view with the people in the future, who are
communicating with us in the past, they can ASK us to do something that is
dufferent from what happened. Or they can give us information on our
future, which is their past, which will cause us to do something to alter
THEIR history.
   I have to take the position that time travel isn't going to happen.
Either that or we can't go back in time, only forward (and we can go
forward in a round about way thru cryo-sleep). If we can go back in time,
why haven't we EVER been visited, or seen signs of time travellers? With
the infinity of the future (hypothetically capable of time travel) surely
SOMEONE decided it would be fun to visit some time which we would have a
record of. They couldn't ALL have been SO careful as to not leave a trace
behind.

Paul Gauthier
{uunet, utai, watmath}!dalcs!iisat!{paulg | brains!paulg} 

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 18:27:08 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Time travel

barry@eos.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
> And it doesn't get rid of true randomness. Instead of the state of a
> particle being random, it's the state of the particle in your particular
> branch of reality, and why are you (the you that just measured the
> particle) seeing this branch, and not some other? Looks random.

This is no more of a problem than the question of why I'm sitting here
looking out of my eyes and thinking my thoughts rather than looking out of
your eyes and thinking your thoughts. The problem of exactly what
self-consciousness is is rather complex, and it's a little unfair to expect
a physical theory to give you the solution to that question when it can't
even solve the multiple body problem in the general case.

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 12 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 340

Today's Topics:

		Books - Herbert (5 msgs) & Kube-McDowell &
                        LeGuin & Martin & Maxwell & May

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 19:04:01 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>In order for DUNE to take place, the Bene Gesserit must be right about
>"sorting people to find humans"; the Fremen must be correct about their
>innate superiority -- at least as a war machine.  The book *does* take
>place, so those things must be regarded as among the book's assumptions.
>
>And these are fascistic assumptions.

I agree with the first paragraph, I'm not so sure about the second.  All
the BG claim is that, given complete control over breeding and close
control over environment, they can create fuehrer types.  The Fremen claim
and demonstrate that their environment has made them better warriors then
anybody else.  In neither case is a claim made that the result is a better
(type of) human overall; in fact, the book points the other way, with its
depiction of the Jihad as the necessary result of all this meddling.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 21:39:34 GMT
From: kazim@apple.com (Alex Kazim)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

I take offense/defense on some of Tuckers statements.

1) Melange: True it's a French word in an arab setting, but it isn't
incongruous.  Algeria is predominantly a Muslim country with roots from
Arabia (the last jihad) and France.  The arab word for bicycle, if I
remember correctly, is closer to French than English.

It would have been better if Herbert had continued this cultural mixture
than just this one word.  I haven't read the book in a long time so there
may be other crosses.

2) Bad Places to live Arabia:
U.A.E.!  Excuse me! I hope you're speaking from experience, and a bad one
at that.  My Dad lives in Dubai. It's a very beautiful part of the world.
And while it's not the "sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll" capital of the world,
there's no place I'd rather go if I had to write a novel.

3) Characters talking to themselves:
I think this is just Herbert's personal style: I didn't mind it in the book
but it was really hokey in the movie. A lot of those thoughts could have
been done with just facial expressions rather than having Paul do the
"Spice", "Desert Planet", "Arrakis" dream sequence.

4) His reading lists:
Tucker's read a few books and I, for one, don't mind him sharing the titles
and authors with us: every now and then I do follow-up on it. I don't think
he's trying to cram any books down your throat, but take him up on it: read
one of them and we'll discuss what you liked/didn't like about it.

Alex Kazim
Apple Computer
                                 

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 21:10:30 GMT
From: erich@tybalt.caltech.edu (Erich R. Schneider)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>What I said was, that *all* characters whose political views are discussed
>at any length -- the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen are merely the most
>blatant examples -- hold the view that some genetically defined group of
>people is intrinsically superior to all others.
>...
>In order for DUNE to take place, the Bene Gesserit must be right about
>"sorting people to find humans"; the Fremen must be correct about their
>innate superiority -- at least as a war machine.  The book *does* take
>place, so those things must be regarded as among the book's assumptions.
>
>And these are fascistic assumptions.

I think you're missing a level of assumption here. The Fremen must not be
correct about their innate superiority - they must assume they are innately
superior, but they don't have to be innately superior. And they aren't :
most of their genetic adaptations were for saving water on a dry world ;
they won battles because they were religious fanatics led by their Messiah,
and they were very well trained warriors. Herbert assumes the Fremen assume
they are innately superior, but he himself does not assume they are
innately superior - which is why he brings up the flaws of the Fremen and
their mentality in later books.

Also, the B.G. were structuring humanity into two classes - those useful to
their breeding program, and those not. Anything useful to you will usually
be considered "superior" to something almost the same but useless to you.
The only individual the B.G. would consider "superior" would be the Kwisatz
Haderach, and look what producing one of those did to them!!!!

Also, I don't think "fascist" (which is an adjective! :-)) is the label to
describe the kind of assumptions you think exist. Perhaps "Darwinist" is a
better word. :-)

Erich R. Schneider
erich@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 88 18:23:25 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>All the BG claim is that, given complete control over breeding and close
>control over environment, they can create fuehrer types.

Not so.  The BG (as I've pointed out) "sort people to find humans."  They
describe the process as like sorting sand in a sieve.  And they *MOST*
specifically claim that most "people" are *NOT* "humans."

They do not claim explicitly that "people" who are not "humans" are a
lesser form of life -- but they *do* consider them beneath their notice, at
least as far as their breeding for the uebermensch goes.

>The Fremen claim and demonstrate that their environment has made them
>better warriors then anybody else.

They also explicitly and implicitly claim to be God's chosen people.

>In neither case is a claim made that the result is a better (type of)
>human overall; in fact, the book points the other way, with its depiction
>of the Jihad as the necessary result of all this meddling.

If the book *does* point in this direction, it does so in complete
contradiction of its underlying assumptions.  The book then unravels itself
on a needle of failure to heed its own precepts.

You can not point away from facism by making fascist assumptions.

Incidentally, I'd also like to point to the *last* book of the series for a
rather frightening bit of additional evidence.

Throughout the series, we see groups of people recognizably descended from
contemporary Earth groups: The Fremen, for example, are descended from the
"Zensunni wanderers," who seem to be some sort of Asiatic-Arabic mix.

But only in the sixth book are we shown a group who have maintained their
ethnic identity, intact, from contemporary times.  This group has survived
the supposedly-complete homogenization of the Time of the Worm; they have
survived thousands of years after it.  This is after untellable time from
the present to the achievement of workable FTL; from that to the
establishment of the Padishah Empire; and thousands of years (check the
dates in the first volume) of the Empire before the rise of Paul-Muad'Dib.

Who are they?

Surprise, surprise:

The Jews.

What kind of mind thinks of Jews as so completely different from other
human beings that they can maintain their ethnic identity when *all* other
major ethnic differentia of modern society have faded into oblivion?

Only two types:

Jews who believe themselves the "Chosen People;" they have every reason to
believe that God will continue to maintain them as "a people apart."

And the type that thinks of them as "Judenschwein."

Frank Herbert was not a Jew.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 17:54:07 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>>In order for DUNE to take place, the Bene Gesserit must be right about
>>"sorting people to find humans"; the Fremen must be correct about their
>>innate superiority -- at least as a war machine.  The book *does* take
>>place, so those things must be regarded as among the book's assumptions.
>>
>>And these are fascistic assumptions.
>
>I agree with the first paragraph, I'm not so sure about the second.  All
>the BG claim is that, given complete control over breeding and close
>control over environment, they can create fuehrer types.  The Fremen claim
>and demonstrate that their environment has made them better warriors then
>anybody else.  In neither case is a claim made that the result is a better
>(type of) human overall; in fact, the book points the other way, with its
>depiction of the Jihad as the necessary result of all this meddling.

The Bene Gesserit *claim* that they're correct in "sorting people to find
humans"; but, after all, "human" is a matter of definition.  The Bene
Gesserit ideal of "human" is (as always) "someone who is like us"; the
rules of what is "like us" are a bit stricter than usual, so it's a self-
fulfilling prophecy.

The Fremen claim and demonstrate their superiority in matters of war, yes.
So did the Sardaukar; Salusa Secundus was rather similar to Arrakis, if
you'll recall.  (I don't think melange figures into the equation, except as
a psychedelic which can be used as an aid to creating fanatics, which
latter *does* have an effect.)

Both assumptions are based at their roots on the belief that "my group" is
better then "all other groups".  This may be fascistic, but then by the
same definition so is "My group is better than {blacks | whites | Catholics
| Protestants | Native Americans | etc., etc., etc. ad nauseam}".  It's
rather common, unfortunately; Herbert only extrapolated it into a possible
future version.

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu
allberyb@skybridge.sdi.cwru.edu
allbery@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 22:02:35 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: ALTERNITIES by Michael Kube-McDowell

		  ALTERNITIES by Michael P. Kube-McDowell
			 Ace, 1988, 0-441-01774-6
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Kube-McDowell is a good author, and that makes this all the more
disappointing.  This parallel worlds story is muddled and confusing.  Few
of the characters make any sense or seem to have much consistent
motivation.  The thread with Senator Endicott is particularly meaningless
and I figure was put in purely to add a sex-and-violence aspect to the
novel.  It seems to have nothing to do with the rest of the book.  The
ending is confusing and a deus ex machina to boot.  It was interesting to
follow the sidebars and see just where the split in worlds occurred, but
that did not suffice to sustain my interest for almost 400 pages.  (What
did?  I suppose the feeling that it must all tie together eventually.  It
didn't.)  I had such hopes for this novel, but it did not live up to any of
them.

Evelyn C. Leeper
+01 201-957-2070
att!mtgzy!ecl
ecl@mtgzy.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 21:52:04 GMT
From: kazim@apple.com (Alex Kazim)
Subject: Re: LeGuin

I've only read 3 of LeGuin's books, but I consider her one of the best
WRITERS that SF has to offer.  Of course, that doesn't mean I loved her
work:

I read _Left Hand of Darkness_ a long time ago.  I'd be hardpressed to
remember the plot, any of the main characters, etc.  Chalk it up to bad
memory.

I read _The Dispossessed_ last year.  It was a very good book, although not
a particularly easy read.  It's not the kind of book you can snarf in an
afternoon.

_Always Coming Home_ is a great book!  For those of you who don't know:
it's a collection of short stories, plays, poems, and artwork from some
future- past culture. I bought the paperback so I didn't get the cassette
with songs on it.

I liked this one because all of the poems & prose painted a complete
picture of that culture: one better than any book I've read.  Since it is
so complete, it too is not a book to be snarfed.  Take your time reading
it.

Of the three I'd recommend the last one. Heya, heya.

Alex Kazim
Apple Computer

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 22:07:04 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: WILD CARDS V edited by George R. R. Martin

	WILD CARDS V: Down and Dirty edited by George R. R. Martin
			Bantam, 1988, 0-553-27463-5
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Well, much as I hate to say it, the "Wild Cards" series is wearing
thin.  There was so much I found dissatisfying about this book--none of it
devastating, but added together, it makes me wonder if I'll buy the next
one.  And that is one of the problems.  This book, more than any of the
previous books in the series, screams out, "A SEQUEL IS COMING!"  Yeah,
after each of the others you realized there was more to tell, but in this
case, it's a lot of what THIS book is about that's unresolved.  Add to this
that (at least in my opinion) there is a lot more graphic violence in this
book that previously.  And then I get a vague feeling that perhaps the
"Wild Cards" series has reached the end of its inventiveness--there doesn't
seem to be anything really original or fresh here.  The technical details
of the mosaic novel are well-handled, but technical proficiency does not a
great novel make.

Evelyn C. Leeper
+01 201-957-2070
att!mtgzy!ecl
ecl@mtgzy.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 88 21:26:08 GMT
From: Devin_E_Ben-Hur@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Ann Maxwell

Matt Costello writes:
> I've the following 8 books, all as mass market paperbacks.  I don't know
> of any other books written by Ann Maxwell.  The date listed is that of
> the copyright.
> 
>   1975  Change
>   1976  The Singer Enigma

    1979  A Dead God Dancing

>   1980  Name of a Shadow
>   1981  The Jaws of Menx
>   1982  Fire Dancer
>   1983  Dancer's Luck
>   1983  Dancer's Illusion
>   1986  Timeshadow Rider

Devin_Ben-Hur@cup.portal.com
...!ucbvax!sun!cup.portal.com!devin_e_ben-hur

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 88 11:00:11 GMT
From: bwh@informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (Brian Henderson)
Subject: Julian May's Books

Mitch @ Rockwell, Anaheim writes:
>> I'd spent a lot of time trying to find the prequel series I thought had
>> to exist (on Jack the Bodiless, Blessed Diamond Mask, et al), but
>> finally gave up.
>
> So now she's finally gotten around to writing it, huh?  Great!  Strange
> bit of coincidence for me, though, as I just started re-reading the
> series again (is this the 4th time?  the 5th?  who keeps track?!?!?).
> 
> Somebody please keep me posted with full details, like whether any of the
> new series has already been released, in hard- or softcover, etc.  Thanks
> in very large quantities!!

It appears from what you write that you may not have read "Pliocene
Companion" by Julian May that accompanies the "Saga of the Exiles" series.
This book contains a glossary of characters, background data and three
interviews with the author. Unfortunately the three interviews are
virtually identical, but enlightening anyway.

In the said interviews Julian outlines the conception of the complete
Series.  Namely, she attended a Science fiction conference and at the fancy
dress night appeared in a space-ages costume covered in diamonds made by
her own fair hand. This costume caused quite a stir and she thought up the
character that would have worn it. This character grew into the plot for
the "Galactic Milieu" a series about human metapsycic prowess and galactic
interaction. But she believed that the readers were not ready for this as
yet and set about providing a lead-in series thus came about the "Saga of
the Exiles".

Now that "INTERVENTION" is out this novel provides the link between

   Saga of the Exiles:
      Many coloured Land
      Golden Torc
      Non born King
      Adversary

   Galactic Milieu:
      Jack the Bodiless
      Diamond Mask
      Magnificant

   Pilocene Companion

   Intervention

Hope this may be of some help.
Apologies for any mispelling etc as typing this from work.

I have had trouble finding "Dune Roller" Julian's original novel that is
mentioned at the start of each book. Is this generally avaiable, is Pan (
in britain ) going to release it too.

I have read the whole series 5 or 6 times , scan reading ( ie all the good
bits ) several times as well.

I have just recently read "INTERVENTION" as it was released in paperback (
i am scottish so had to wait ...... aiken drum rools ok ) . I found it a
brilliant read. Great handling of a story that contains elements that are
previously known or hinted at. So i am eagerly awaiting "Jack .."  and the
others.

P.S. When I stayed in Scotland my grandfather lived 5 mins from Dalriada (
used as the name of the Scottish planet on which Aiken was hatched) .

Brian W. Henderson
Unix Sub-Section
Infrastructure Group
Informatics Division
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon. OX11 0QX
(0235) 21900 ext. 6151
UK JANET: bwh@uk.ac.rl.pyr-a
UUCP:	  ..!mcvax!ukc!rlvd!pyr-a!bwh

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 12 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 341

Today's Topics:

	       Books - Murphy (3 msgs) & Palmer & Panshin &
                       Pratchett & Rowley (3 msgs) & Silberberg &
                       L. Neil Smith & Stasheff & Tepper

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 22:02:01 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE FALLING WOMAN by Pat Murphy

		      THE FALLING WOMAN by Pat Murphy
		   Tor, 1987 (1986c), ISBN 0-812-54620-2
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This book won the 1988 Nebula and deservedly so.  It is a fantasy, but
not one of those Tolkienesque elves-or-what-have-you-on-a-quest-to-
save-the-world-from-the-ultimate-evil sort of novel.  (No slur towards
Tolkien--he did it early and he did it better.  But, oh the imitators he
spawned!)  THE FALLING WOMAN is about an archaeologist who is very involved
with her work, so much so that she communicates with the spirits of those
who lived and died where she is digging.  Her work takes her to
Dzibilchaltun in the Yucatan where she is visited by the spirit of a long-
dead priestess.  How she deals with this is the meat of the novel.  There
is not a lot of action, but there is a lot of thoughtful character
development and a good use of the Mayan setting.  As a well-written,
literate fantasy, this is hard to beat.

     (Side-note: why don't more fantasy authors write in less over-used
mythologies?  Tiptree also wrote Mayan-based material, but I can't think of
anyone else.  LeGuin is doing some work in Native American legends, and one
or two other authors have also done so, but again, I can't think of too
many.  Milton and Brust did the Christian Heaven; Dante and Niven and
Pournelle did Hell.  And then there are a wealth of Asian mythologies that
almost entirely ignored....)

Evelyn C. Leeper
+01 201-957-2070
att!mtgzy!ecl
ecl@mtgzy.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 88 19:29:00 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: THE FALLING WOMAN by Pat Murphy

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>      This book won the 1988 Nebula and deservedly so.  It is a fantasy,
> but not one of those Tolkienesque elves-or-what-have-you-on-a-quest-to-
> save-the-world-from-the-ultimate-evil sort of novel.  (No slur towards
> Tolkien--he did it early and he did it better.  But, oh the imitators he
> spawned!)

I've reread Tolkien over and over, my opinion is that he should have
stopped at _The Hobbitt_, and _not_ have written his famous trilogy, which
has been copied and imitated by so many fantasy hacks who put words on
paper, _just_ words, they profane Tolkien's legacy. Tolkien borrowed from
Irish/Welsh/Norse/Germanic mythology and sometimes borrowed from Medieval
tales, especially the Brothers Grimm. He put them into a huge cauldron and
none of these myths can stand the comparison with all the others. It's kind
of like pick and choose which mythology structure you identify with; I've
read extens- ively all the above mythologies and Tolkien did a disservice
to all of them. Evelyn, you ought to read John Campbell/Bill Moyers' book,
The Power of the Myth_. Tolkien merely mixes all the mythologies together,
he didn't pick and choose _one_ of them.
	
>      (Side-note: why don't more fantasy authors write in less over-used
> mythologies?  Tiptree also wrote Mayan-based material, but I can't think
> of anyone else.  LeGuin is doing some work in Native American legends,
> and one or two other authors have also done so, but again, I can't think
> of too many.  Milton and Brust did the Christian Heaven; Dante and Niven
> and Pournelle did Hell.  And then there are a wealth of Asian mythologies
> that almost entirely ignored....)

Lucius Shepherd wrote about the Mayan mythology, have you forgotten Roger
Zelazny, with _Lord of Lights_, dealing with the Hindu pantheon, and Robert
Silverberg did _Gilgamesh_, Sumerian legends. How can you put mighty Milton
and Dante with Brust, Niven, and Pournelle?  Niven and Pournelle wrote a
terrible book _Inferno_ with Benito Mussolini as the protagonist's guide,
that book didn't hang together:-).  Even Norman Mailer wrote _Ancient
Evenings_ with Egyptian gods.

Have a nice holiday, Evelyn...

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs Denver	

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 19:40:57 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDonald)
Subject: Re: THE FALLING WOMAN by Pat Murphy

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>(Side-note: why don't more fantasy authors write in less over-used
>mythologies?....

Even European mythos are usable...take Robert Holdstock and his novel
_Mythago Wood_.  I feel that this book and _The Falling Woman_ had the same
feel to them, even though based in different mythos.  Any mythos can be be
made new, refreshing, with the proper approach.  (Anti-flame Warning: I
loved Tolkien and many of the followers, but I really like to see variety
as well.)

Bryan McDonald
ccdbryan!ucdavis!{ucbvax,lll-crg, sdcsvax}
bkmcdonald@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu
^_ABYL OPTIONS:
Version: 5
Labels:open
Note:   This is the header of an rmail file.
Note:   If you are seeing it in rmail,
Note:    it means the file has no messages in it.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 17:23:14 GMT
From: peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva)
Subject: David Palmer/Emergence (Re: Misc. sf/fantasy)

If Emergence is the book I think it is (written in terse fragments. Writing
style grows on you, but never quite makes it. Has clever virus idea), I'd
like to ask a question.

The author suffers from a common fault of writers writing about people much
smarter than them, which is that they don't quite make it believable. I am
moderately intelligent, but nowhere near the level of the protagonists, and
I found myself continually understanding things they didn't. I don't know
if I'm any smarter than the author (whatever that means), but I certainly
felt that I was a better problem-solver than the protagonists. About the
only thing they had over the run-of-the-mill folks was a prodigious memory.

Does the sequel do a better job?

Peter da Silva
peter@sugar.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 88 17:27:44 GMT
From: ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Thurb

clarke@acheron.UUCP (Ed Clarke):
>tyler@procase.UUCP (William B. Tyler) writes:
>> Whatever happened to Alexei Panshin?  I thoroughly enjoyed his Anthony
>> Villiers/Torve the Trog series, and would like to see more from him.  Is
>> he dead?  Not writing?  Enquiring minds want to know.
>
>Me too!  Also - were there more than two books in this series?  I remember
>'The Thurb Revolution' and 'Masque ???', but no others.  These were really
>fun books and I'd like to see more.

Four books, all out of print.  In order:

   STAR WELL
   THE THURB REVOLUTION
   MASQUE WORLD
   THE UNIVERSAL PANTOGRAPH

I've got the first two, and have been searching for the others since I got
them (well, MASQUE WORLD, at least; I found out about tUP later).

Brandon S. Allbery
uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu
allberyb@skybridge.sdi.cwru.edu
allbery@uunet.uu.net

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 88 12:48:38 GMT
From: mph@praxis.co.uk (Martin Hanley)
Subject: Re: Terry Pratchett/Wyrd Sisters

After talking to the man himself at a signing session in Bristol (UK), many
things were revealed...

He has had MONEY OFFERS for the film rights for _Colour_Of_Magic_ and
_Light_Fantastic_, but it would appear (he was a bit cagey here) that he
has turned them down, on the grounds that they wouldn't make good films.  I
must agree here, although _Mort_ would...

There is to be a play of _Wyrd_Sisters_, somewhere in England, sometime
soon. Anyone got any more details on this?

The book AFTER _Pyramids_ is to be called _Guards!_Guards!_ (see spoiler).

***SPOILERS***

_Pyramids_ is set in an Egyptian part of Discworld. Apparently, a king
sends his son out of the kingdom to get and education, and when he returns
he is full of trendy new ideas like helping the inner cities, etc.. Quite a
shock to the Egyptian-time civilization in which he lives. Also, the book
involves a camel. Now, camels don't have names for themselves, so they
assume their names are whatever they are called most often; this camel is
called "YouBastard".

_Guards!_Guards!_ : Have you noticed that, in any fantasy book, there comes
a time (normally in chapter three) when the hero/heroine gets in danger,
and cries "Guards! Guards!", whereupon a group of said guards rush into the
room, only to be killed off one by one?  This is their story...

Martin Hanley
mph@praxis.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 88 14:19:16 GMT
From: rls@ihuxz.att.com (Schieve)
Subject: The Vang, The Military Form

I just finished The Vang, The Military Form by Chris Rowley and really
enjoyed it.  It has many similarities to both The Thing and Aliens plus
some interesting new twists.  Not to give away too much, I'll just say that
the main bad aliens are refered to as omniparasites and it all starts out
with someone stumbling across and ancient alien artifact in an asteriod
belt...

What I'd really like to know is if the other books by Christopher Rowley
(there were about six listed in the front) are as good and worth searching
out.

Thanks,

Rick Schieve
...att!ihuxz!rls

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 22:29:18 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: The Vang, The Military Form

>What I'd really like to know is if the other books by Christopher Rowley
>(there were about six listed in the front) are as good and worth searching
>out.

Not really. The Vang is his best book to date. His early books are okay but
he had a definite tendency to have deus ex machina endings which spoiled
everything that came before in the book. If you must try an early book try
the War For Eternity.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow
dlow%hpccc@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 88 18:01:35 GMT
From: vsi1!v7fs1!mvp@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: The Vang, The Military Form

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>>What I'd really like to know is if the other books by Christopher Rowley
>>(there were about six listed in the front) are as good and worth
>>searching out.
>
>Not really. The Vang is his best book to date. His early books are okay
>but he had a definite tendency to have deus ex machina endings which
>spoiled everything that came before in the book. If you must try an early
>book try the War For Eternity.

Be advised, though, that "The War for Eternity" also has a real _deus ex
machina_ ending.

I didn't care for the book.  It was OK, but Rowley had a bad case of "The
Cutes" with some of his names, and a really gross imagination when it comes
to designing nasty parasites, and ugly undersides of decadance that is what
keeps me away from cyberpunk.  (Though it's certainly not a cyberpunk
book.)  And that _deus ex machina_ almost influenced me to fling the book
across the room in frenzied disgust.

TWfE is the only book of his that I've read.  I have heard that "Vang" is
good.  Another nasty parasite, but this one is integral to the story, not
just a gratuitously tossed-in gross-out.  It's on my "eventually..." list.

Mike Van Pelt
...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp                        

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 21:50:37 GMT
From: megatest!jao@pyramid.com (John Oswalt)
Subject: Robert Silverberg question

Once upon a time, at a science fiction convention, Robert Silverberg was
asked something like, "Would you burn out if you ever wrote as many books
as Isaac Asimov?" (This was a few years ago, so IA was only up to 250 or
so.)  Silverberg replied, "I've got news for you.  I've written more books
than Isaac Asimov."

Now, I know he was prolific in his 50's to early 60's period, that he used
a lot of pseudonyms, and than he wrote a lot of non-sf, but I didn't
believe him then and I don't believe him now.  Still, he must have written
more than the 90-odd books in the recently posted list.  I collect books of
all types, and spend a lot of time in used book stores and at book sales,
and I simply don't believe that I could have missed 200 Silverberg books,
pseudonyms or not.

Does anyone have a complete list?  Barring that, can anyone name
significant numbers of Silverberg's early non-sf works?

John Oswalt
..!sun!megatest!jao

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 09:01:44 GMT
From: JWenn.ESAE@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Robert Silverberg question

Robert Silverberg has written under the pseudonyms:

   Walter Chapman
   Don Eliot
   Don Elliot
   Ivar Jorgenson
   Calvin M. Knox
   David Osborne
   Robert Randall
   Lee Sebastian

among others.  In addition to the ~90 SF works I mentioned, he's written at
least 70 non-fiction works (mostly juvenile works in the early 60's such
as: "The Great Doctors", "Treasures Beneath the Sea", "15 Battles that
Changed the World", "Empires in the Dust" and "The World of the Rain
Forest").  He's also written an unknown number of mystery and western
novels under various pseudonyms, as well as over 100 soft-core porno
paperbacks between 1959 and 1966 under several pseudonyms (most as Don
Eliot/Elliot).

So that's a minnimum of 260 books, plus many I don't know about, most of
which were written before 1970.  Isaac Asimov reached 300 books in 1985.
So I don't have any trouble believing that Silverberg had more books in the
early 80's, although Isaac may have passed him in the last few years.

John

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 17:01:29 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Taflak Lysandra

This has been quite a month for bad sequels.  L. Neil Smith's "Taflak
Lysandra" (Avon, 12/88) is the latest addition to Smith's series of books
placed in a universe where everything went right for Libertarianism.

I've been buying these books in hopes that one of them will come up, again,
to the brilliance of "Their Majesties' Bucketeers", but I've been coming up
dry.  Very dry in this latest case.

Worse, it appears that this book is the second ("Brightsuit MacBear" was
the first) of a new (are you ready for this?) heptology.

This isn't a review, per se.  If you haven't read anything by this author,
this isn't the place to start.  Read his excellent "Their Majesties
Bucketeers".  For more typical, but still well-written fare, read "Tom
Paine Maru".  If you have read other books by this author, you'll want to
know how it compares to his other books.  The answer is "poorly".

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 16:47:06 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Faithful [Cybernetic] Companion at Forty [Decades]

"The Warlock's Companion", by Christopher Stasheff (Ace, 12/88) is the
latest contribution to the Gramarye series.  The author is getting tired.

The skeleton of the book is a dull and unconvincing encounter between the
Warlock's family and some ghosts.  Dull, unconvincing, and too short to
fill a whole book, so it is fleshed out with some stories of the D'Armand
family, as told by Fess.  Not particularly good stories, mind.

Readers who haven't read "The Warlock In Spite of Himself" should run out
and get that book -- it's marvelous -- but shouldn't feel obligated to read
all the sequels; they're not on the same level.  Readers who have
faithfully been reading all the sequels may wish to get this one, for the
sake of completeness, but should be warned that it's pretty poor stuff.

It's not that there are no more good stories to be told in this universe.
The impression I get is that the author has just gotten very tired of it.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 17:15:17 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Marianne

"Marianne, the Madame, and the Momentary Gods" (by Sheri Tepper, Ace 12/88)
is a sequel to "Marianne, the Magus and the Manticore".  Unlike most of the
sequels which have come out in the pat month, it isn't significantly worse
than its predecessors.  It isn't even actively bad (it helps that Tepper
knows how to write) but it is disappointing.

It had the potential to be excellent.  The first part, describing
Marianne's second childhood, was wonderful.  But short.  Unfortunately,
half the book, like its predecessor, is taken up by what is functionally a
dream sequence.

Few authors handle extended dreams well.  There are too few apparent
restrictions, and the details of the dream are too likely to be unimportant
to the book as a whole.  What Marianne goes through isn't *precisely* a
dream, but it looks like a dream and acts like a dream and has much the
same impact on the plot.

It does end well -- a happy ending with ominous overtones.

If you enjoyed "Marianne, the Magus and the Manticore" you'll probably
enjoy this one as well.  If you haven't read it, there is limited sense in
reading this sequel.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 12 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 342

Today's Topics:

	       Miscellaneous - 1989 Worldcon Info Request &
                               Time Travel (9 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 88 22:50:28 GMT
From: nestle@athena.mit.edu (Curtis S Chen)
Subject: WORLD CON

Anbody have any info on the WORLD Science Fiction CONvention to be held in
Boston in Sept. '89?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 88 04:01:37 GMT
From: microsoft!bryanf@uunet.uu.net (Bryan Feir)
Subject: Re: Time travel

marco@sbgrad6.UUCP (Pete DiMarco) writes:
>   A while back, I heard about this theory/hypothesis/wild guess that
>suggested that time could be viewed as a tree.
    [...]  
This is probably even more confusing than the previous discussion...  and I
>don't claim to believe it myself.  I would like to know if anyone out in
>net.land has heard of this before, and whether it's a total farce.

   No, it's not a farce.  The branching universe theory is one of
half-a-dozen different ways to handle Quantum mechanics without having to
worry about the FTL effects which occur.  The problem is that Bell's
hypothesis shows that quantum incidents can change the outcome of other
quantum incidents, even when the information would have to travel faster
than light.

   Since FTL travel automaticly implies time travel in relativity, this can
cause severe problems in causality.  There are several ways to handle time
travel paradoxes:

   1) purely deterministic universe.  You CAN'T alter the past, and the
      randomness of quantum mechanics is illusory.
   2) branching universe: (Murphy's universe) everything that can happen,
      will happen.  The problem with this is that whenever you go back into
      the past, a lot of your dopplegangers do as well; it's the same past.
   3) serial universe: You can change the past, but it won't be your past;
      essentially whenever you travel in time you enter a universe exactly
      like yours was at that time.
   4) the "reset" universe: from Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_A_Time_.  If you send
      a message back in time that changes the past, your universe is wiped
      out.  The message still exists, even though the sender doesn't.
   5) the hysteresis (sp?) effect: if you change the past, events will
      occur to force the minimum possible change.  I.e., if you kill your
      father, someone will take his place, and you will still be born.

   The best discussion of various possibilities I've seen is in "The Theory
and Practice of Time Travel", by Larry Niven.  It is in one of his short
story collections (GP Memory Fault); the same one as "Man of Steel, Woman
of Kleenex" which was discussed here a while back. One of his more
interesting conclusions:

 Niven's Law of Time Travel: If it is possible to go back and change your
past, a working time machine will never be invented.

Reasoning: (assuming a reset-style universe) If you change the past, the
entire chain of events after the moment of interference is altered.  It is
possible that the alteration makes it impossible for a time machine to ever
be invented.  If this happens, then the past is now stable, since no time
machines implies no changing of the past.  So the time machine will never
be invented.

This, of course, makes two major assumptions: One, that it is possible to
alter the past; and two, that we can go back before the point that the time
machine is activated.

Anyway, take a look at it, it's got some interesting ideas in it.

Bryan Feir
{uw-beaver!}microsof!bryanf
bryanf@microsoft.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 06:08:53 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Time travel

paulg@iisat.UUCP (Paul Gauthier) writes:
>I have to take the position that time travel isn't going to happen. Either
>that or we can't go back in time, only forward (and we can go forward in a
>round about way thru cryo-sleep). If we can go back in time, why haven't
>we EVER been visited, or seen signs of time travellers? With the infinity
>of the future (hypothetically capable of time travel) surely SOMEONE
>decided it would be fun to visit some time which we would have a record
>of. They couldn't ALL have been SO careful as to not leave a trace behind.

Why not?  If you're postulating time travel, then you're postulating a
technology so far in advance of ours as to be nearly incomprehensible.  Why
couldn't they sit in invisible bubbles over the planet and record the
movement of every atom?  You're making the assumption they'd have to come
down and get their hands dirty.

Also, perhaps what we're experiencing is the "prime continuum", that is,
the way things were before time travel was invented and things started
getting complicated.

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 17:56:34 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.mun.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Time travel

gwills@maths.tcd.ie (Graham Wills) writes:
> THEORY #3
> This is my favourite ( as a statistician ) We adopt the viewpoint of a
> meta-observer (able to view all time simultaneously) The gist of the
> theory is that if ANY time loop is caused, then the loop goes round and
> round until no paradoxes are left. it still goes round and round, of
> course, but it does it the same way every time.

My fave too ( as a computer scientist ): Because:: If you do it on a
smaller time scale, with information instead of events being stabilized by
the time loop, you could use it to find solutions to NP-complete problems
in small amounts of wall clock time.  This plus recursion solves
PSPACE-complete problems too.  Of course your hardware has to be very
reliable, so that it's more likely that a paradox is solved by locking in
to the correct answer than by losing a bit somewhere.

David Eppstein
eppstein@garfield.cs.columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 12:00:54 GMT
From: bob@etive.edinburgh.ac.uk (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Time travel

chardros@csli.UUCP (Doug Gibson) writes:
>bob@etive.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
>>And by coincidence, there is a report in an electronics journal about
>>electrical signals being propagated at 600,000m/s. (Has anyone seen this
>>and can comment?)
>Haven't seen the report, but c = 300,000,000 m/s, so I'm not going to
>worry about it too much. ....

Ummm... Is that what I actually wrote?

I must have been falling asleep while typing and missed some 000s. That
part of the line should have read "being propagated at 600,000,000m/s" i.e.
2c.

Something to do with signals being recieved 37 nanoseconds too soon or
something.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 16:46:41 GMT
From: ut-emx!ethan@cs.utexas.edu (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

EM_FELDM@FANDM.BITNET (Emf) writes:
> Some people have been discussing the possibility of taking a trajectory
> through a black hole and getting warped into the flow of time and then
> back out intact.....  First off, long before you reach the event horizon,
> your body or the body of a space ship starts to expand...  By the time
> you reach the > event horizon you would be long dead since your body
> would be streched > out over several AU (astronomical units).

This sounds like tidal stress, which can be understood in purely newtonian
terms.  The volume of your body (at least to first order) would not change.
However, tidal forces would tend to compress you in the directions
perpendicular to the line of sight to the BH and stretch you lengthwise.
For a 1 solar mass black hole this would be fatal long before you reached
the event horizon.  However, a supermassive BH (say 10^8 solar masses)
would have smaller tidal stresses by a factor of 10^16.  You could fall in
without dying first.

> The second problem is that the acceleration will double every second, and
> by the time you reached the event horizon, you would be going faster than
> the speed of light, but that doesn't work either since it would cause
> anything and everything to vaporize due to the tremendous pressures.

Now this is pure BS.  You can't go faster than light and as long as you're
freely falling your total acceleration is irrelevant.

> And the third problem assuming that someone came up with a method for
> solving the first two is that once inside the event horizon, there is
> nothing known in the universe that will let you escape....

This is not quite clear.  A rotating black hole has the property that there
are trajectories that cross the event horizon and do not end in the central
singularity.  Instead they dump you out ``elsewhere'' which may be in our
universe or not.  I'm personally of the opinion that these trajectories do
not exist if one considers a realistic black hole which is formed at some
definite time and gradually decays due to quantum effects.  This is far
from a closed issue.  There is a related picture which probably does work
in which a locally patch of space can be made to produce a separate closed
universe (which might be quite large).  By entering the patch at a
sufficiently early time you will end up in the child universe.  

Ethan Vishniac
Dept of Astronomy
Univ. of Texas
{charm,ut-sally,ut-emx,noao}!utastro!ethan
(arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
(bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 18:32:29 GMT
From: rob@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

EM_FELDM@FANDM.BITNET (Emf) writes:
>Some people have been discussing the possibility of taking a trajectory
>through a black hole and getting warped into the flow of time and then
>back out intact.  Well, anyone who has had an astronomy course can tell
>you that it is a fantasy.  First off, long before you reach the event
>horizon, your body or the body of a space ship starts to expand.  This is
>part of the general laws of relativity.

Actually, this is simply tidal gravity (the same thing that causes the
Earth to have tides).  If the black hole were sufficiently large, the
gravity gradient would be low, and there would be no problem.

>The second problem is that the acceleration will double every second, and
>by the time you reached the event horizon, you would be going faster than
>the speed of light, but that doesn't work either since it would cause
>anything and everything to vaporize due to the tremendous pressures.

You will ``simply'' accelerate to the speed of light, reaching it as you
pass the event horizon (at least in your frame of reference you will).

>And the third problem assuming that someone came up with a method for
>solving the first two is that once inside the event horizon, there is
>nothing known in the universe that will let you escape....

This assumes the simplest possible black hole, one that has neither charge
nor rotation.  The statement you give is false for black holes with maximal
rotation or charge.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 18:51:11 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

EM_FELDM@FANDM.BITNET (Emf) writes:
>Some people have been discussing the possibility of taking a trajectory
>through a black hole and getting warped into the flow of time and then
>back out intact.  Well, anyone who has had an astronomy course can tell
>you that it is a fantasy.

No, your points are fantasies.  Either you got a lousy grade or you took
your course at Jerry Falwell's Liberty College.

>First off, long before you reach the event horizon, your body or the body
>of a space ship starts to expand.  This is part of the general laws of
>relativity.  By the time you reach the event horizon you would be long
>dead since your body would be streched out over several AU (astronomical
>units).  This would make your body one long string of atoms that have been
>stretch and you would no longer be any thing different then some cosmic
>dust.

If you're referring to relativistic "stretching", that's only visible to
outside observers as you near the speed of light.  First, you don't have to
go anywhere near the speed of light to cross an event horizon.  Second, all
your rulers stretch and you appear (to yourself) to be just the same size
you always were.

>The second problem is that the acceleration will double every second, and
>by the time you reached the event horizon, you would be going faster than
>the speed of light, but that doesn't work either since it would cause
>anything and everything to vaporize due to the tremendous pressures.

No, gravitational acceleration remains constant for the duration of your
fall, the same as with any other gravitational body.  And nothing under
heaven or hell is going to make you go faster than light.

>And the third problem assuming that someone came up with a method for
>solving the first two is that once inside the event horizon, there is
>nothing known in the universe that will let you escape....

Except following a carefully defined path around the inner event horizon.
There's some question as to whether the mess of your spaceship would
disrupt this process, but it's pretty well agreed on that such a trajectory
puts you outside the black hole on the ol' space-toime diagram.  Exactly
where is a good question....

Was this message meant as a joke?

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 05:47:33 GMT
From: christnp@thor.stolaf.edu (Doctor X)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

EM_FELDM@FANDM.BITNET (Emf) writes:
>First off, long before you reach the event horizon, your body or the body
>of a space ship starts to expand.  This is part of the general laws of
>relativity.

Actually, this isn't a problem since due to relativity you wouldn't notice,
that's basically what 'relativity' means.  The universe chooses no inertial
reference frame as being special, which means you don't notice if someone
else thinks you expand.  You do get ripped to shreds, though, due to the
tidal forces exerted by the black hole (the force of gravity is stronger at
one end of your body than the other.)

Also, gravity won't rip you to shreds because an object in free fall in a
gravitational field doesn't notice.

>The second problem is that the acceleration will double every second,...

Says who it will 'double' every second?  Seems to me it depends on a lot of
other factors.

>...and by the time you reached the event horizon, you would be going
>faster than the speed of light, but that doesn't work either since it
>would cause anything and everything to vaporize due to the tremendous
>pressures.

Uh, not even close.  Special relativity says that nothing which ever moves
at a velocity less than the speed of light can ever seem to move faster
than the speed of light in any reference frame.  Also, velocity doesn't
cause anything to vaporize.  Again, the main problem is tidal forces.

>And the third problem assuming that someone came up with a method for
>solving the first two is that once inside the event horizon, there is
>nothing known in the universe that will let you escape....

This is not quite true.  If you take a look in _Gravitation_ by Misner,
Thorne, and Wheeler (a very obtuse book, not to mention huge, but
absolutely excellent) they discuss conditions under which you might be able
to pass through certain types of black holes untouched.

Please, Evan, don't embarass yourself or waste our time by posting an
article on a subject that you know nothing about.  I'm far from an expert
on the subject, but if I can find this many flaws in your article it
shouldn't have been posted in the first place.  If you have any further
comments please email me rather than take up everybody's time on the net.

Nick Christenson
christnp@stolaf.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 15:41:32 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

I love hearing people babble about the limitations of relativity, FTL
travel, and doing funky things with black holes.  It is incredible how much
faith people put in Einstein's laws..  I've got news for you people, 50
years ago, no one had any ideas, like Einstein, 150 years from now, we will
be way in front of Einstein.  Realize that each set of laws is limited to a
specific environment, and the more we learn, the less we really know.

How many people here really believe that FTL is an impossibility?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 13 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 343

Today's Topics:

	     Books - Frankowski & Herbert (2 msgs) & Murphy &
                     Palmer & Silverberg & Wallace (3 msgs) & 
                     Williams (4 msgs) & Wilson & Story Answer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 23:14:29 GMT
From: llasslo@hpsmtc1.hp.com (Laurel Lasslo)
Subject: Does Frankowskis Hi-Tech Knight Exist?

Does anyone know if Leo Frankowski's High-Tech Knight (or any of the other
proposed sequels to Cross-Time Engineer are available or will be out??

Thanks.

Also any suggestions for other books - Time travel, alternate histories
would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 17:37:25 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

I done wrote:
>> What kind of mind thinks of Jews as so completely different from other
>> human beings that they can maintain their ethnic identity when *all*
>> other major ethnic differentia of modern society have faded into
>> oblivion?
>> 
>> Jews who believe themselves the "Chosen People;" they have every reason
>> to believe that God will continue to maintain them as "a people apart."
>> 
>> And the type that thinks of them as "Judenschwein."

And then Ray Lubinsky wrote:
>Sorry, Dan'l, but I have to take you to task for such poor reasoning.
>It's not uncommon for science fiction authors to see a trend and extend it
>into their future worlds.  As trends go, the unique identity of Jews is a
>pretty stable one (at least 2000 years).  I don't think it would be
>unreasonable to assume that it may continue for some time into the future.

I'm sorry, I disagree about "poor reasoning."  The survival of the Jews-as-
a-separate-group must be considered in the light of Herbert's having
already defined the Godworm Leto as "homogenizing" human culture across the
Imperium.  The only people permitted to retain an ethnic identity were the
Fremen (the Meistervolk) and the "tolerated" Tleilaxu.

That the Jews remained ethnically separate under such conditions, while
(say) Gypsies did not, is definitely noteworthy.

Nonetheless, I confess that the "Jews in space" business was somewhat of a
red herring, dragged across the trail because I was getting tired of the
inane niggling on other, clearer issues.  Herbert's depiction of the Jews
in the Dune universe is not of a "mongrel race," but of Jews as _people_
who, through maintaining their ethnic separateness, retain what seems an
air of standoffishness as seen by a person unprepared to see them as they
are -- i.e., the book's protagonist.

I don't think Herbert was a fascist, and I *certainly* don't think he was
an anti-Semite.  My contention was, and has been all along, that DUNE,
through subtext rather than through intent or content, carries a subtly but
dangerously fascistic set of messages.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 20:46:48 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson) writes:
> djo@pbhyc (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>>What kind of mind thinks of Jews as so completely different from other
>>human beings that they can maintain their ethnic identity when *all*
>>other major ethnic differentia of modern society have faded into
>>oblivion?

I believe that the Fremen are linked to the Arabic word _fedkayin_, there's
talk about the jihad, also an Arabic word for holy war. The Fremen seems to
me to be totally Bedouin, they use sandworms for transport, whereas the
Bedouin tribes use camels. Need I remind you that the camel is called in
Muslim countries 'the ship of the desert'?

>>Only two types:

Jews and Gentiles.

>>Jews who believe themselves the "Chosen People;" they have every reason
>>to believe that God will continue to maintain them as "a people apart."

Only Orthodox Jews keep the kosher law, even Conservatives and Reform Jews
are less strict observing kosher. Now Israel is going to define the Law of
Return as religious persecution, where Orthodox rabbis are the only ones
who can say who is a Jew, or not a Jew. I saw an SNL skit about 'Jew/Not
Jew' as a gameshow. Israel is biting the nose of its collective face,
because who else but American Jews support Israel?

> You must agree that the ability of the Jewish people to maintain their
> ethnic identity after nearly 2000 years of exile is remarkable?
> 
> I can very well understand that the Jews came to Herbert's mind when he
> wanted a group of people that managed to maintain their identity.

I see no reason to debate the Fremen. They are definitely Arabic nomads, as
the book _Dune_ makes extremely clear.  What else can they be? Remember
that the Arabic world was the place to be in the Dark Ages, leaps and
bounds above Europe in personal hygiene, medicine, astronomy, and religious
tolerance. Let the mountain come to Mohammed. Paul Mua'Dib was also called
the Mahdi, that's an Arabic term for savior. Remember that Mohammed in the
holy book Koran syntheszed Judaism and also Christianity. Let you squabble
and quibble about the Jewness of _Dune_. It's clear to me that it's a
storm in a teapot. The whole story of _Dune_ is about the Mahdi, also
called the Mua'Dib (which is an Arabic word for desert mouse) creating
Paradise on Arrakis.

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs Denver

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 16:44:51 GMT
From: wex@banzai-inst.sw.mcc.com (Alan Wexelblat)
Subject: Re: THE FALLING WOMAN by Pat Murphy

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>This book won the 1988 Nebula and deservedly so.

I just finished FALLING WOMAN and, much as I like Pat, I didn't think it
was *that* great.  It's awfully slow-moving for my tastes even though the
characters are interesting.  The ending was also a bit of a letdown.

> (Side-note: why don't more fantasy authors write in less over-used
> mythologies?  Tiptree also wrote Mayan-based material, but I can't think
> of anyone else.

My irregular plug for an underrated novel: Lewis Shiner, DESERTED CITIES OF
THE HEART.  Takes place in Mexico and uses Mayan themes/ideas.  An odd sort
of fantasy; it's more like an alternate present.  Good writing, good
characters, and enough things happening to satisfy action junkies like me.

Alan Wexelblat
ARPA: WEX@MCC.COM
UUCP: {rutgers, uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!milano!wex

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 22:40:00 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: David Palmer/Emergence (Re: Misc. sf/fantasy)

peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva):
>The author suffers from a common fault of writers writing about people
>much smarter than them, which is that they don't quite make it
>believable...

Well, you have an enormous meta-clue that the characters don't: You know
it's a story.  That means, among things, that you know that clues are clues
and not random hapstance.  You know that everything that happens has to
make "story sense", although most things that happen to us in the real
world don't.  Also, an 11-year-old, however intelligent, is going to make
certain classes of mistakes just by virtue of only having eleven years of
experience under her belt.

>Does the sequel do a better job?

Here's where all my apologetics prove to have been wasted.  I presume that
the sequel to which you referred is "Threshold", which is not a sequel but
is by the same author, and is about a super-intelligent adult.

It's a bad book.

But it's bad in ways that reflect badly upon "Emergence".

Most of Emergence is written in incomplete sentences since it is meant to
be journalistic in nature, and since (according to the keeper of the
journal) English is about 60% flab anyhow.  Actually, the author only
really achieves a 10-20% reduction from standard English, but it does serve
to obscure the fact -- revealed in Threshold -- that he can't write very
well.

The intelligence of his super-intelligent adult protagonist in Threshold
appears to be the same as that of his super-intelligent child in Emergence.
They have similar skills, knowledge, opinions...  Unfortunately, this means
that many of the flaws that I took in Emergence for characterization (she's
bright but she's only eleven and therefore...) turn out to reappear in
Threshold.

In summary, the 'sequel' does a significantly worse job in almost every
respect.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 88 20:18:45 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Robert Silverberg question

jao@megatest.UUCP (John Oswalt) writes:
> Once upon a time, at a science fiction convention, Robert Silverberg was
> asked something like, "Would you burn out if you ever wrote as many books
> as Isaac Asimov?" (This was a few years ago, so IA was only up to 250 or
> so.)  Silverberg replied, "I've got news for you.  I've written more
> books than Isaac Asimov."

I believe that Mr. Silverberg has written more books than Dr.  A. ('Dr. A'
says it all, as I recall). Most of all he's far better writer than Dr. A.,
he constructs believable plots with 3-D characters, who don't speak stilted
dialogue. The best books I like is _Shadrach in the Furnace_, _The Book of
Skulls_, The Stochastic Man_, _Thorns_, and _The Lord of Darkness_ which
isn't sf, a historical novel about somebody who resembles Shaka Zulu). I
saw _Shaka_ as a miniseries, it was bloody and correct, and how he used the
whites easily, because he commanded them as Zulus to use their cannons
against his many enemies.  Shaka Zulu invented the war of attrition in
tribal Africa with his invention of the short spear, the deadly assegai.

> Now, I know he was prolific in his 50's to early 60's period, that he
> used a lot of pseodonyms, and than he wrote a lot of non-sf, but I didn't
> believe him then and I don't believe him now.

He has published many books, some of them masterpieces, and some of them
hackwork. You'll never know the whole story, because he wrote a lot of
non-sf under nom de plumes.

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs Denver

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 88 16:47:26 GMT
From: dietz@rutgers.edu
Subject: Whatever happened to...

Whatever happened to Ian Wallace (not to be confused with Ian Watson)?  He
wrote a number of rather strange books set in an alternate universe
("Croyd", "Dr. Orpheus", etc.).  Is he still alive?

Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 03:47:07 GMT
From: em471683@longs.lance.colostate.edu (Eric McDermid)
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to...

> Whatever happened to Ian Wallace (not to be confused with Ian Watson)?
> He wrote a number of rather strange books set in an alternate universe
> ("Croyd", "Dr. Orpheus", etc.).  Is he still alive?

   I too am curious.  Also, was he the author of "Z-sting"?  I think so,
but I read the book when I was fairly young and have now lost my copy.
Anybody know?

Eric McDermid
1748 Heritage Circle #150
Ft. Collins, CO 80526
(303) 221-9606
ARPA: em471683@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu 
UUCP: ...ncar!boulder!ccncsu!longs.lance.colostate.edu!em471683

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 19:50:31 GMT
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to...

markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) writes:
>Which one of the authors was prone to extended lectures on
>pseudo-physics/pseudo-philosophy?  I'm trying to find a book, basically a
>murder mystery set on a city-ship, (mostly for the description of the
>ship).

Sounds like Ian Wallace.  He had two series set in this universe, one
involving Croyd (Croyd, Dr. Orpheus, Z-Sting, A Voyage to Dari, etc.)  and
one involving some female detective.  Wallace's pseudo-etc. stuff is really
annoying if you expect your SF to conform to reality.  He was a fan of
Dewey, if I recall correctly.

Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 17:38:14 GMT
From: husc2!north2@husc6.harvard.edu (north2)
Subject: Walter Jon Williams

I'm sure many of you are familiar with Walter Jon Williams via the
cyberpunk movement, but how many of you have read his other books?  He has
a really enjoyable series about the exploits of Drake Maijstral, Allowed
Burglar.

The newest book in this series is called _House of Shards_.  I've just
finished reading this, and recommend it wholeheartedly.  Williams has
created a wonderful blend of humor, adventure, and intrigue.  For those of
you interested in this series, I recommend reading the earlier books first
for a better introduction to the nuances of the society in which the book
is set.  It's not absolutely necessary to do so in order to enjoy this
book, but it will make several points much clearer.

All right, I suppose these book reviews aren't exactly going to spur any
great debate . . . Hopefully my next posting will be a little more
interesting.

Christopher North
north2@husc2.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 88 19:41:20 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Walter Jon Williams

north2@husc2.UUCP (north2) writes:
> I'm sure many of you are familiar with Walter Jon Williams via the
> cyberpunk movement, but how many of you have read his other books?  He
> has a really enjoyable series about the exploits of Drake Maijstral,
> Allowed Burglar.

It's not enjoyable, it's a retread of the Stainless Steel Rat megaseries,
that's the way I look at the series. WJW is a better writer than Harry
Harrison (sorry to disappoint all the myriads of Harrison fans), and _House
of Shards_ is far, far better than any Stainless Steel Rat novel. But WJW
has written a lot better in his other books. I like _Voice of the
Whirlwind_.

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs Denver 

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 07:54:56 GMT
From: elg@killer.dallas.tx.us (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Walter Jon Williams

north2@husc2.UUCP (north2) says:
> I'm sure many of you are familiar with Walter Jon Williams via the
> cyberpunk movement, but how many of you have read his other books?  He
> has a really enjoyable series about the exploits of Drake Maijstral,
> Allowed Burglar.

Enjoyable, yes. A great put-down on society snobs and media freaks, yes
(sniffing at the ears certainly makes as much sense as bowing or shaking
hands!). Great books? No.

BTW, remember his short story "Dinosaurs"? Doesn't it remind you of "The
Death of Dr. Island" insofar as the major theme goes? I've put it on my
"required re-reading list", the list of short stories so good that I have
to re-read them occasionally to get relief from the endless drek I
otherwise seem to encounter.  His short stories are one reason I bought the
Maijstral book... and was disappointed (from any J. Random Hackwriter it'd
be pretty good, but WJW can do better).

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509              
..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 20:08:12 GMT
From: hoptoad!tim@uunet.uu.net (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Walter Jon Williams

To hell with Williams' books, how about the short story "Dinosaurs"?  It's
an amazing story, set eight million years in the future, with only one
"human" (actually human-descent) character.  "Food!" screamed Lowbrain!
It's the only far-far-far-future story I've read that I can believe, and
it's chilling.  It was in last year's Dozois anthology, so you have no
excuse if you didn't read it....

Tim Maroney
sun!hoptoad!tim

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 01:08:52 GMT
From: atc@cs.utexas.edu (Alvin T. Campbell III)
Subject: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

Over the past several years, I have read and enjoyed many books recommended
in this newsgroup.  However, it seems that there are several writers whose
work does not seem to be discussed much on the net.

One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never read
his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.
Normally I don't hesitate to read a book by a previously-unread author, but
since each of these volumes is nearly a thousand pages in length, I would
like some comments before I jump in.

Thanks for the help.

A. T. Campbell, III
Computer Graphics Laboratory
Department of Computer Sciences
University of Texas
Austin, Texas 78712
atc@cs.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 88 21:27:38 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Author request

chrisa@Jessica.stanford.edu (Chris Alexander) writes:
>Another really good story in the anth. is one...whose title & author I
>can't remember...damnation...anyway, it's about a knife recovered from the
>future by the future-historian Toynbee, which is then placed in a museum
>in honor of Toynbee, which museum is subsequently atom-bombed so that
>Toynbee can revisit it in the future and find the knife...etc.  Really
>fine story.

'As Never Was', by P Schuyler Miller

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 19 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 344

Today's Topics:

	 Books - Small Press & The Complete Time Traveler Guide &
                 Remember Gettysburg! & Some Short Reviews (4 msgs) &  
                 Time Travel/Alternate History Stories (2 msgs) &
                 Romance in SF (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 88 00:08:00 GMT
From: pbrewer@mcdurb.Urbana.Gould.COM
Subject: Small Press

Small press -- publications with a circulation of, say 100 to 1000 copies
per issue -- has been around for at least as long as there has been offset
printing.  In these days of laser printers and desktop publishing the
industry is flourishing.  There are now thousands of little magazines
covering any conceivable topic.  Magazines specializing in science fiction
and fantasy short stories are very common.

For those of you who never have enough to read, and for those of you who
want to read the early works of people who will be big-name authors a few
years from now, small press is one way to do it.

The best place that I know of to get information on specific small press
publishers is "Scavenger's Newsletter."  A small press publication in its
own right, SNL is aimed at writers and artists looking for small press
markets.  But it is just as useful to anyone wanting names, addresses and
price information for a wide range of little magazines.

Scavenger's Newsletter is published by Janet Fox.  The address for SNL is:
   519 Ellinwood
   Osage City, KS   66523-1329

Small press magazines tend to be published by individual people.  This
means that things like marriages, new jobs, and the like can interfere with
the publication schedule.  The magazines also tend to have short lives.  It
is generally a good idea to order a sample issue, as much to make sure that
the magazine still exists as to learn about just what kind of magazine it
is.

Small press magazines vary a lot in quality as well.  Some are typeset,
offset printed on high-quality paper with slick covers.  Others are just
typed and photocopied.  Some pay their contributors nothing, others a small
pittance, still others a large pittance.  The quality of the material tends
to corresponds loosely.

If people show an interest, I'll post occasional notes with mini-reviews of
small press magazines that publish science fiction and fantasy.

Claimer: I subscribe to Scavenger's Newsletter, and have done so for
several years.  I am not connected with the publication in any other way.

Philip Brewer
Motorola Urbana Design Center
1101 E. University Ave Urbana, IL 61801
pbrewer@urbana.mcd.mot.com
uunet!uiucuxc!mcdurb!pbrewer

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 88 02:36:00 GMT
From: klaes@mtwain.dec.com (CUP/ML, MLO5-2/G1 8A, 223-3283)
Subject: The Complete Time Traveler Guide.

   Speaking of time travel in a strictly science fiction sense, there is a
new book out on the subject entitled THE COMPLETE TIME TRAVELER: A
TOURIST'S GUIDE TO THE FOURTH DIMENSION, by Howard Blumenthal, Dorothy F.
Curley, and Brad Williams.

   It is a clever book designed as a tongue-in-cheek guide for tourists who
are as interested in visiting *when* as they are *where*.  For example, the
copyright date says both 1988 and 2038, and the authors have books credited
to them which won't be written for another forty years or so.  The Foreword
is by H. G. Wells.

   TCTT tells you what are the best modes for time travel (time belts, time
cars, etc.), what are the best places to visit, what diseases to be
inoculated against (Black Plagues and all that, you know), what to wear,
what rules must be obeyed, and even how to bring children along.

   The authors obviously had a lot of fun writing this book, and they know
their SF: A bibliography on books, films, and television series dealing
with time travel (some which have yet to exist in our time period) is
located in the back.  In fact I cannot go into enough detail to tell you
how well this book was written and made.

   TCTT is produced by Ten Speed Press, P.O. Box 7123, Berkeley, California
94707, USA, ISBN 0-89815-284-4 (Hardcover).  I highly recommend it, in fact
it may become useful soon, what with these scientists supporting wormhole
time travel and all. :^)

Larry Klaes

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 22:03:25 GMT
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: REMEMBER GETTYSBURG! by Randle & Cornett

	   REMEMBER GETTYSBURG! by Kevin Randle & Robert Cornett
		       Charter, 1988, 1-55773-089-X
		     A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

   This book seems to be aimed 1) those who like war stories packaged as
science fiction, and 2) Civil War buffs.  It consists mostly of long
detailed descriptions of Civil War battles (which may or may not be
accurate).  There is an alternate history frame, disposed of in a couple of
paragraphs and then brought back only to provide additional suspense.  The
characters are not well developed; apparently the authors assume the reader
will have read their first book, REMEMBER THE ALAMO!  And at the end comes
the now all too familiar twist that...there will be a sequel.  Blech!

Evelyn C. Leeper
+01 201-957-2070
att!mtgzy!ecl
ecl@mtgzy.att.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 88 20:19:47 GMT
From: husc2!north2@husc6.harvard.edu (north2)
Subject: Misc. sf/fantasy

Well, I've just read a few paperbacks to take my mind off of my hellish
exams and papers which I've been neglecting . . .

Any Robert Asprin fans out there--his Myth series in particular?  I just
read the latest in a seemingly endless line-something like _Myth-nomers and
Imp-perfections_.  To be honest, the series continually is going downhill.
The first 3 or 4 were amusing, but the writing has become more or less
dead.  In this exciting episode, Aazh has left M.Y.T.H and gone back to
Perv.  That's right, you guessed it, folks, the Great Skeeve must brave a
world of Perverts (sorry, Pervects) to bring back his scaly friend.  Asprin
practically begs the reader to buy his next book with the ending--he
probably won't even have to write a first chapter to the next book.  Ho
hum.  It's time for Asprin to think up a new series.  Skip this one unless
you've faithfully read all of the others, and even then, you might want to
consider saving yourself a few bucks.  Then again, it beats studying
Maxwell's equations . . .

While we're talking about worn-out series, guess what?  Yup.  Piers Anthony
has come out with yet _another_ Xanth book.  This one, called _Heaven Cent_
(boy, Anthony sure is a master of those puns . . .), is no better than the
last few.  It's pretty much the same situation here--the first few Xanth
books were really enjoyable--I especially liked _The Source of Magic_ (I
think I have that title right).  The latest one is all about Prince Dolph,
the shape-shifting Magician.  One potentially interesting plot twist is
that the Good Magician Humphry has disappeared (this might have happened at
the end of the last book--I have trouble keeping track).  I haven't
finished the book yet, but from what I've read (about 2/3), it's really
only for diehard Xanth fans.

I'm also in the middle of reading _Mirrorshades_.  Good stuff!  I forget
who recommended it (several people, actually), but thanks!

A question for you folks out there: Does anybody know when David Palmer's
new book is coming out?  Palmer's first (and only) two books were
_Emergence_ and _Threshold_.  IMHO, we've got a really great author on our
hands here.  When I read the plot summaries for these two, I pretty much
wrote them both off--Post-nuclear America, and supergenius-saves-the-
universe are not exactly what you'd call _original_ ideas.  But, IMHO once
again, these are two of the best sf/fantasy books I've read in a while.
Anyway, I've heard that he has a new book coming out soon, and I plan to
get it in hardcover the day it hits the shelf.

That's all for now.  I'm sure I'll have more (probably too much more) to
say later.

Christopher North
north2@husc2.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 88 19:17:55 GMT
From: berman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Paula  Berman)
Subject: Some OTHER authors

I was REAL glad to hear David Palmer is coming out with a new one, since I
loved both _Emergence_ and _Threshold_.

Has anyone out there read anything by Emma Bull?  Her group-world series,
Liavek, with Will Shetterly (her husband, I think), is only so-so, but her
book, _War of the Oaks_, was great, and so was a story she and Shetterly
wrote for the Borderlands group world.  Shettterly has a couple of solo
books out, too.

What about Charles de Lint? I'm rapidly becoming convinced that some of the
best fantasy around is coming from the Minneapolis-into Canada area. de
Lint has a slew of books out, most of which show a decent grasp of
folklore.

More good stuff -- The Borribles; Across the Dark Metropolis, by Michael de
Larrabetti.  Unfortunately, this is the third book in the series and the
only one I've been able to find.

Does anyone else out there have opinions on these or recommendations of
other new or relatively obscure authors? (i.e. not Heinlein, Asimov, Niven,
Donaldson, etc) I could use some new reading material.

Paula Berman

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 13:31:12 GMT
From: rti!ntcsd1!dmc@mcnc.mcnc.org (David Clemens)
Subject: Re: Some OTHER authors

berman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Paula  Berman) writes:
>I was REAL glad to hear David Palmer is coming out with a new one, since I
>loved both _Emergence_ and _Threshold_.

   I loved _Emergence_, but I've never heard of Threshold_. Is it a sequel?

>Will Shettterly has a couple of solo books out, too.

   _Witchblood_, a very good story with a strange ending.

>More good stuff -- The Borribles; Across the Dark Metropolis, by Michael
>de Larrabetti.  Unfortunately, this is the third book in the series and
>the only one I've been able to find.

   I read the first book several years ago when I found it in a used book
store. It was the story of the first adventure of _______( I can't remember
the name of the main character!)  A very good book.  Later, I bought and
read the third book and found it also very good, but much darker than the
first book.

(I still can't remember that name... I hate it when this happens!)

David Clemens
{backbone}!mcnc!rti!ntcsd1!dmc

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 16:50:12 GMT
From: ns!ddb@cs.umn.edu (David Dyer-Bennet)
Subject: Re: Some OTHER authors

berman@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Paula  Berman) writes:
>Has anyone out there read anything by Emma Bull?  

Yep.  I liked WAR FOR THE OAKS also.  Incidentally, she just finished
revisions on a second novel which will come out from Ace, uh, sometime (I
don't remember if it's scheduled yet or not).  (And is at about chapter two
on a third.)

>What about Charles de Lint? I'm rapidly becoming convinced that some of
>the best fantasy around is coming from the Minneapolis-into Canada area.
>de Lint has a slew of books out, most of which show a decent grasp of
>folklore.

While Minneapolis is pretty far north, it's a LONG way from Ottawa.

Speaking of the Minneapolis / Canada axis :-), a while back somebody was
asking if Steven Brust is still reading this group.  He says not.

David Dyer-Bennet
...!{rutgers!dayton 
amdahl!ems
uunet!rosevax}!umn-cs!ns!ddb
ddb@Lynx.MN.Org
...{amdahl,hpda}!bungia!viper!ddb

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 88 23:33:46 GMT
From: tran@portia.stanford.edu (Hy Tran)
Subject: Re: Does Frankowskis Hi-Tech Knight Exist?

Tim_Lavan@f942.n135.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Lavan) writes:

>>Also any suggestions for other books - Time travel, alternate historys
>>would be appreciated.
>[ recommends Pournelle's Janissaries; R. Adams' Horseclan, and L. Neil
>Smith ]

Far older, and, in my opinion, better, are H. Beam Piper's "Lord Kalvan of
Otherwhen", and other Piper cross-time stories.  Along similar lines are
Keith Laumer's "Worlds of the Imperium" and its sequel "The Other Side of
Time."  L. Sprague de Camp wrote an excellent time-travel story, with a
plot idea almost identical to what Frankowski used, titled "Lest Darkness
Fall."  I found "Lest Darkness Fall" much more plausible, especially in
terms of the difficulties the protagonist would face.  (de Camp had, as his
premise, a historian winding up in 4th century (or is it 5th?  I can never
count...) Rome.  Also of interest (but harder to find) is P.  Schuyler
Miller's (or is it P. Miller Schuyler?  My memory is really getting bad)
"Genus Homo".  A very entertaining tale of plain folks in not-so-plain
situations.

Hy Tran
tran@krakatoa.stanford.edu
{...}!decwrl!krakatoa.stanford.edu!tran
tran%krakatoa.stanford.edu@STANFORD.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 88 04:12:20 GMT
From: reed!mehawk@cse.ogc.edu (Michael Sandy)
Subject: Re: Does Frankowskis Hi-Tech Knight Exist?

>   Robert Adams' (of Horseclans fame) 
>     1)  Castaways in Time 
>     2)  Seven Magical Jewels of Ireland 
>     3)  Of Quests and Kings 
>     4)  Of Chiefs and Champions 
      5)  Myths and Monsters   Fairly good, actually.

Henry Kuttner wrote a few stories about an alternate, low-tech world,
accessible to this one.

The Seventh Sword series by David Duncan also deals with a 20th century
protagonist facing swords, technology and miracles.

Joel Rosenberg's _Gaurdians of the Flame_ series also has guns versus
magic.

A low of stories with heavy prophecies share a lot of characteristics with
Time Travel stories.

Good luck
Michael Sandy
mehawk@reed.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 88 03:11:26 GMT
From: lhb6v@watt.acc.virginia.edu ("Laura H. Burchard")
Subject: Re: Romance in Science Fiction

neff@helens.UUCP (Randall B. Neff) writes:
>1.  Which science fiction book contains the best (most moving) romance 
>    story between two humans?  (not necessarily pornographic)

The Wolves of Memory, George Alec Effinger

>   2.  Between an Alien and a human?
  
The World Wreckers, Marion Zimmer Bradley

>   3.  Fantasy book with the best romance story between two humans? 

Hm. there's a lot of them, but I'd probably nominate the Door Into Fire by
Diane Duane.

Laura Burchard
lhb6v@virginia.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 88 07:34:25 GMT
From: vsi1!v7fs1!mvp@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Romance in Science Fiction

neff@helens.UUCP (Randall B. Neff) writes:
>1.  Which science fiction book contains the best (most moving) romance 
>    story between two humans?  (not necessarily pornographic)

The "Tale of the Adopted Daughter", from Robert Heinlein's _Time Enough for
Love_.

...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 88 04:52:48 GMT
From: microsoft!gordonl@uunet.uu.net (Gordon Letwin)
Subject: Re: Romance in Science Fiction

neff@helens.Stanford.EDU (Randall B. Neff) writes:
>1.  Which science fiction book contains the best (most moving) romance 
>    story between two humans?  (not necessarily pornographic)

   The Warriors of Dawn, by M.A. Foster (Not Alan Dean Foster!)

>2.  Between an Alien and a human?

   The Warriors of Dawn

Anyone else out there a fan of Foster, Warriors of Dawn and the sequel The
Game Players of Zan?

Warriors was definitely a "first book" - it went great until the very end
where Foster resorted to a major Deus ex Machina to bail him out.  The Game
Players, which takes place earlier chronologically, had no such problem and
was beautiful.  Both highly recommended.

Warriors of Dawn meets both #1 and #2, above, with the same love story.  A
relationship between a human male and a ler female.  The ler is a species
which was genetically engineered from the human species.  They're close in
physique, but significantly different both mentally and physically.  No
interbreeding is possible.  I won't go into the details here, and the book
doesn't go into details, but the genetic code isn't like a blueprint that
can describe any arbitrary pattern, like a functional thumb growing out of
your forehead, but instead it describes an initial pattern and some "rules"
- - so a simple change in fly genetic code causes them to grow legs in the
place where their antennae should be.

In the case of Ler, this means that the genetic engineers, trying to
produce a superman, couldn't specify very closely at all what they were
going to get - they stirred things up until they got a viable organism,
then raised a bunch of them to find out just what they had.  They were
disapointed; they didn't get a superman.  Or at least, they didn't think
that they did.

In the Warriors of Dawn, the Ler had become free from the humans some time
ago, and the Ler and Human races stay pretty much apart, and have
considerably different goals for themselves.  But a problem has come up
which requires the combined efforts of the human male - a governmental
trouble shooter type - and the ler female - a kind of police woman.

Recommend reading the Gameplayers second.  Since it takes place in what was
the past in the first book, you'll go into the book already having a
"spoiler" of the ending, and in my opinion this made it better.

Gordon Letwin

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 19 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 345

Today's Topics:

	      Books - Asprin & Boyett & Donaldson (4 msgs) &
                      Herbert (4 msgs) & Martin 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 20:03:21 GMT
From: lance@logicon.arpa (Lance Browne)
Subject: Re: Misc. sf/fantasy

north2@husc2.UUCP (north2) writes:
>Any Robert Asprin fans out there--his Myth series in particular?  [I
>think], the series continually is going downhill.

In a limited edition Donning Starblaze release of one of the Myth books Mr.
Asprin wrote (as I vaguely remember), that Donning Starblaze signed him up
to do 6 more books instead of only 1 more book (with N = ?).  This, Mr
Asprin felt, was going to allow him the freedom to plot all 6 together, and
make everything about the series better (eg. more flexibility in plotting
through 6 books instead of wrapping a new situation up in a 150 pages.)

So you may want to check out the new myth books?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 23:32:43 GMT
From: seanf@sco.com (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: Inquiry about Boyett's _Architect of Sleep_

jkiparsk@csli.UUCP (Jonathan Kiparsky) writes:
>bobby@hot.caltech.edu (Bobby Bodenheimer) writes:
>> Does anyone know why there hasn't been a sequel to _The Architect of
>>Sleep_ by Stephen R. Boyett, published by Ace in 1986? The book was
>>clearly intended to be the first book in a longer series.
>I thought so, too. Boyett probably read some Piers Anthony.( :-) for you
>Anthony fans)

I wrote a little letter to Boyett, and received a xeroxed paper (small,
printed in small print on both sides, folded to make a 4-page booklet) from
him.  According to Boyett, and I stress this part since he's the only
source I have on this, AoS was butchered from it's original story (made
shorter).

Ok, just found it, hold on whilst I scan and summarize: (*mumble*,
*mumble*, racoon, *mumble*, book, *mumble*, disney, *mumble*) Ok: Original
title: _The Architect of Sleep, the Geometry of Dreams_.  The book was
expected to be about 500k+ words long, so it was decided to make it into a
series.  The first book was to have been something to "lay the groundwork,"
but Berkley got impatient and wanted the first part to "provide resolution
and have a nice sewn-up feel."  The ending was rewritten a bit, and the
book was published.  Berkley wanted the rest to be even shorter, and
self-contained as well.  Boyett got stubborn.  He bought the book back:
"It's right here, as I said, about a foot away from me."  He states that
the books are in limbo, and that the titles were supposed to be: Architect
of Sleep, Geography of Dreams, Navigators of Fortune, Corridors of Memory,
and Gravity of Night.

I did a truly horrible job at summing up his letter; he also requests, if
you want the books, that you send your complaints to:
   Susal Allison
   The Berkely Publishing Group
   200 Madison Avenue
   New York, NY 10016

I, of course, refuse to commit myself to any position for or against the
guy, except that I WANT TO READ MORE OF HIS STUFF! 8-)

Cheers.

Sean Eric Fagan
seanf@sco.UUCP 
(408) 458-1422 

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 88 06:35:19 GMT
From: boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (John Boswell)
Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson (no spoilers, I think)

Hi.
   I just finished "The Mirror of Her Dreams" by Donaldson.  I am *very*
disappointed.  Granted I started the novel not having very high
expectations, but unfortunately it lived up (down?) to all of them.  (The
only reason I read the book in the first place was because I forgot to send
it back to the book- club.)  I don't understand why so many people
supposedly *like* his work.  I put "Lord Foul's Bane" down after only
1/2-way through because I *really* couldn't stand his "antihero" (or
whatever) character.  I almost put this new one down for the same reason,
but managed to get through it.  I really think that by 600 pages that the
main character should have *matured* a hell of a lot more.

   Anyway, my *real* point: What are other peoples' opinions about a book
that leaves you *hanging* after 600 pages?  I mean really....Donaldson
could have at least tied up *one* loose end before forcing the reader to
buy another (probably 600 pages) book???

   Well, enough rambling.  Needless to say I am not very fond of this dude.

John Boswell
boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 88 16:40:12 GMT
From: tlh@pbhyf.pacbell.com (Lee Hounshell)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson (no spoilers, I think)

boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (John Boswell) writes:
>  I just finished "The Mirror of Her Dreams" by Donaldson.  I am *very*
>disappointed. [..]  	Anyway, my *real* point: What are other peoples'
>opinions about a book that leaves you *hanging* after 600 pages?  I mean
>really....Donaldson could have at least tied up *one* loose end before
>forcing the reader to buy another (probably 600 pages) book???

When I read the set, I was already aware that the first book didn't end..
it just sorta stopped in the middle.  So I waited until both books were out
before picking them up.  Well, I thought that the set, read together, is
*fantastic*!  I read lots (~2 books a week) and this one rates up in my top
ten list for fantasy stuff.  I don't think the two books should have been
published a full year apart though.. I'd much rather have seen the two
either published together, or as a single (huge) volume.

Lee Hounshell

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 88 06:50:33 GMT
From: Bill_P_Pearce@cup.portal.com
Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson (no spoilers, I think)

Re the query about why do people like Donaldson, I agree that his wimpy
principal characters are hard to take.  After a few hundred pages or so,
you want to take Thomas Covenant and Terisa Morgan by the throat and scream
"Grow Up!" to them.  Despite that, I did find the Covenant series (all 6
volumes) enjoyable because the idea was intriguing, I guess.  I did find
"The Mirror of Her Dreams" to be very slow going.  Actually, that worked
out ok because by the time I worked my way through it, the second volume
was out in paperback ("A Man Rides Through").  I figured the second volume
had to be better (why? I don't know, but I hate to leave a set unfinished).
In fact, it is, to my mind, considerably better and I recommend you try it.
Terisa begins to acquire a little courage, or something, and it moves much
faster.  I would recommend giving it a try, and of course the loose ends
are tied up.

Bill Pearce

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 88 01:19:42 GMT
From: altos86!nate@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Nathaniel Ingersoll)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson (no spoilers, I think)

I couldn't put the books down, but that doesn't mean I really liked the
books.

I really dislike the psychologically messed up characters Donaldson has in
his stories (what's her name in those two books, and Thomas Covenant in the
6-series), though they are rather interesting.  At least for a while - then
it gets really hard for me to give a damn what happens to the characters.

I'd recommend reading the books, but keep in mind that they are not exactly
uplifting to the spirit.

Nathaniel Ingersoll
Altos Computer Systems, SJ CA
...!ucbvax!sun!altos86!nate
altos86!nate@sun.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 22:44:25 GMT
From: trent@unix.sri.com (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

>holy war. The Fremen seems to me to be totally Bedouin, they
>use sandworms for transport, whereas the Bedouin tribes use

This is almost unrefutably supported by the fact that when Paul becomes
part of the tribe, he is said to have become one of the "Ichwan Bedwin"
(from memory now, no flames).

Seemed rather obvious even without this givaway, though.

ray

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 22:42:47 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
> I'm sorry, I disagree about "poor reasoning."  The survival of the
> Jews-as- a-separate-group must be considered in the light of Herbert's
> having already defined the Godworm Leto as "homogenizing" human culture
> across the Imperium.  The only people permitted to retain an ethnic
> identity were the Fremen (the Meistervolk) and the "tolerated" Tleilaxu.

Fremen were _A_R_A_B_S_, maybe you're making a joke, Dan'l.  On how
hopped-up people on sf-lovers when they have something to quibble and
squabble about, do you remember the interminable 'Re: re: re: re:
Mindkiller' about three years ago?

> That the Jews remained ethnically separate under such conditions, while
> (say) Gypsies did not, is definitely noteworthy.

I know a few Gypsies, you better talk to them about _not_ being ethnically
separated.

> Nonetheless, I confess that the "Jews in space" business was somewhat of
> a red herring, dragged across the trail because I was getting tired of
> the inane niggling on other, clearer issues.  Herbert's depiction of the
> Jews in the Dune universe is not of a "mongrel race," but of Jews as
> _people_ who, through maintaining their ethnic separateness, retain what
> seems an air of standoffishness as seen by a person unprepared to see
> them as they are - i.e., the book's protagonist.

The Fremen are totally arabic in Herbert's treatment. The Arabs use hashish
and the Fremen use melange, to bear up under harsh conditions. Some Yemeni
Arabs eat kif.

>I don't think Herbert was a fascist, and I *certainly* don't think he was
>an anti-Semite.  My contention was, and has been all along, that DUNE,
>through subtext rather than through intent or content, carries a subtly
>but dangerously fascistic set of messages.

That I agree with you on, Dan'l. 

Davis Tucker
Bell Labs Denver

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 88 18:22:55 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

I appear to have been unclear.  One ">" is Davis Tucker, two ">>" are me:

>> I'm sorry, I disagree about "poor reasoning."  The survival of the
>> Jews-as- a-separate-group must be considered in the light of Herbert's
>> having already defined the Godworm Leto as "homogenizing" human culture
>> across the Imperium.  The only people permitted to retain an ethnic
>> identity were the Fremen (the Meistervolk) and the "tolerated" Tleilaxu.
>Fremen were _A_R_A_B_S_, maybe you're making a joke, Dan'l.  On how
>hopped-up people on sf-lovers when they have something to quibble and
>squabble about, do you remember the interminable 'Re: re: re: re:
>Mindkiller' about three years ago?

A misunderstanding here.

I was not implying that the Fremen were Jews; I was saying that the only
folk who were *permitted* to maintain ethnic identity were the (decidedly
Bedouin- like) Fremen and the Tleilaxu.

My point was that the Jews managed to maintain their ethnic identity even
when it was *not* permitted under the rule of the Worm.

>> That the Jews remained ethnically separate under such conditions, while
>> (say) Gypsies did not, is definitely noteworthy.
>
>I know a few Gypsies, you better talk to them about _not_ being ethnically
>separated.

Well, of *course* they're ethnically separated *now*.

What I'm saying: in Herbert's future, by the sixth book, it appears that
the Romany have lost their ethnic separateness.  (I suppose it's possible
that they're hiding out somewhere, but that's multiplying miracles.)  The
Jews, by some miracle, have maintained theirs.

Really, this isn't the point anyway.  The point is this:

   "You dare suggest that a Duke's son is an animal?"
   "Let's say that I'm suggesting that you may be human."

Quoted from memory, but I reread that section last night.  It's the first
section of the book.  It also makes it *very* clear that the people the
B.G. declare non-"human" are "animals" in their eyes.
 
>The Fremen are totally arabic in Herbert's treatment. The Arabs use
>hashish and the Fremen use melange, to bear up under harsh conditions.
>Some Yemeni Arabs eat kif.

Again:  I DIDN'T SAY THE FREMEN WERE JEWS!

The Jews show up *LATER*, after the reign of the Worm.
 
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 88 19:29:14 GMT
From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn L.Smith)
Subject: Re: Gruppenfuhrers of Dune

dht@drutx.ATT.COM (D. Tucker) writes:
>djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
> Nonetheless, I confess that the "Jews in space" business was somewhat of
>> a red herring, dragged across the trail because I was getting tired of
>> the inane niggling on other, clearer issues.  Herbert's depiction of the
>> Jews in the Dune universe is not of a "mongrel race," but of Jews as
>> _people_ who, through maintaining their ethnic separateness, retain what
>> seems an air of standoffishness as seen by a person unprepared to see
>> them as they are - i.e., the book's protagonist.
> 
>The Fremen are totally arabic in Herbert's treatment. The Arabs use
>hashish and the Fremen use melange, to bear up under harsh conditions.
>Some Yemeni Arabs eat kif.

... Umm, guys, I haven't read this discussion in its entirety, but it seems
to me that you're both right.  My impression of the Fremen has always been
that they incorporated ELEMENTS of Judaism and Jewish history.  Note the
key word here: ELEMENTS.  This isn't saying that Herbert got out a text on
Jewish history, or the old testament, or any other existing book and went
through and rewrote it, globally substituting Fremen for Jew, or anything
else for that matter.  A lot of the history and some of the attitudes of
the Fremen seem to be based on Judaism, but much of the culture and daily
life he depicts are Arabic.
   While I suppose some Jews and/or Arabs may find the notion of a culture
based on combining the two offensive, there's no reason why he shouldn't
have decided to do just that.  If you borrow elements from existing
cultures to create a fictional one, and contradict some things about that
known culture in your new one, that doesn't mean you got the details wrong.
Just glueing new names on an existing culture is BORING.

   Herbert borrowed from lots of cultures.  The politics of the empire are
no-doubt based largely on historical accounts of politics in Imperial Rome
and Byzantium.  Macchiavelli (sp?) also comes to mind.  Bene Gesserit is
Latin -- it translates roughly as "he/she will have ruled well".  On the
other hand, I can't make anything out of Bene Tlielax.  Then there's the
"Orange Catholic Bible" -- putting Orange and Catholic together is about as
contradictory as basing the Fremen on both Jews and Arabs.  Finally there's
House Atreides.  The name is Greek, meaning of the House of Atreus (for
those of you who aren't well versed in mythology, the sons of Atreus
included Agamemnon and Menelaus, the Greek leaders in the Trojan War.  If
that doesn't mean anything to you, go look up Homer and Aeschylus).  You
could probably generate some fine literary theories based on this last
item.

   Dune is so overloaded with borrowings and symbolism that you're making a
serious error if you try to pick one single parallelism (i.e.  Fremen ==
Jew) and interperet it that way.  I think borrowing liberally from things
well ingrained in our culture, and elements of other existing cultures
gives the book a depth that is lacking in many books where the author just
sits down with a blank piece of paper and tries to invent a culture from
scratch.  Tieing in things that are real confers an aura of reality on the
fictitious additions.

   I have to disagree with the statements I've seen that Dune propounds
dangerous facist ideas.  My impression has always been that the first 3
books were an exploration of the problems and moral dilemnas associated
with prescience, asking questions rather than presenting answers.
Certainly asking questions can be dangerous, but usually it's far less
dangerous than not asking them.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories    
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 88 20:38:34 GMT
From: seanf@sco.com (Sean Fagan)
Subject: Re: WILD CARDS V edited by George R. R. Martin

ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>Well, much as I hate to say it, the "Wild Cards" series is wearing thin.

I was going to post a review, but the same week I picked up this, I'd
picked up about 10 other books (and, fast reader though I be, it takes me
awhile to read them 8-)).  My basic feeling about WCV was that it isn't as
hopeful as the other, that parts of it are just, well, *nasty* and
unnecessarily unpleasant.  For example, one of the potentially promising
threads from the previous book is just thrown asunder, and a large portion
of that story from WCIV is made useless.

Writing-wise, I think I'm more impressed by this one than the previous one.
Remember that book 1 was a collection of stories, each (except for Croyd's)
complete and separate.  Book 2 interwove them a bit, and showed some good
editing on the part of Marting.  Book 3 was the *best* collaboration from
so many authors I'd ever seen (it literally could be read as a single novel
with multiple main characters).  Book 4 went back to the Book 2 style, and
now book 5 is closer to 3, although it still can't really be read as a
single novel.

All in all, I think I enjoyed it more than Evelyn did, and I'd give it a +3
on the Infamous Modified Leeper Scale of -5 to +5.

Sean Eric Fagan
(408) 458-1422 
seanf@sco.UUCP 

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest            Monday, 19 Dec 1988       Volume 13 : Issue 346

Today's Topics:

		   Books - Holdstock & Panshin & Piper &
                           Powers & Rassmusen & 
                           Silverberg (2 msgs) & Vonnegut

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 88 07:24:40 GMT
From: wasatch!donn@mailrus.cc.umich.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Robert Holdstock's LAVONDYSS

LAVONDYSS.  Robert Holdstock.  Gollancz: London, UK.  367 pp. trade
paperback, c1988.  ISBN 0-575-04374-1 (hc), 0-575-04375-X (tp).

Like Bryan McDonald and Morgan Mussell, I thought Robert Holdstock's novel
MYTHAGO WOOD was wonderful, and it fully deserved the World Fantasy Award
that it shared (with Barry Hughart's BRIDGE OF BIRDS) in 1985.  Mythago
Wood (or Ryhope Wood, Shadox Wood, Grey Wood: the name changes from age to
age, community to community) is one of the last remnants of the primeval
forest that once covered Britain and the rest of the civilized Northern
countries.  The wood is so old, it has become an archetype of forest
everywhere -- all forests are contained within it, and all legends have
their origin here.  Creatures called 'mythagos' inhabit the wood, and they
represent instantiations of the legends, players on the infinite stage of
the wood.  People who enter the wood can find themselves caught up in
legends of their own...  MYTHAGO WOOD tells the story of two brothers,
Steven and Christian Huxley, who fall in love with a mythago named
Guiwenneth; they become locked into a legend of brothers battling over a
lover, and Steven tracks Christian deep into the forest.  At the climax, a
confrontation occurs at the limit of the Wood, a place of legend even older
than the the otherwise endless trees: Lavondyss.

The novel LAVONDYSS begins more than a decade later, in 1958, when a girl
named Tallis Keeton discovers a way to enter the Wood.  Her brother Harry
traveled into the Wood years before and was trapped -- Tallis thinks that
she may be able to save him, but she has no idea of the magnitude of the
task before her, for Harry is lost in the Old Forbidden Place...  As Tallis
has grown up, she has become aware of the hidden world that lies around and
beneath our own, and elaborate stories come to her unbidden:

   It took a moment for Mr Williams to realise that Tallis had stopped
   speaking.  He had been staring at her, listening to the words, to the
   story -- which reminded him of the Welsh mythological tales he had often
   read -- and now he saw how the colour flushed back to her cheeks, and
   awareness settled in her vacant gaze.  She folded her arms and shivered,
   glancing round.  'Is it cold?'

   'Not really,' he said.  'But what about the rest of the story?'

   Tallis stared at him, as if she didn't understand his words.

   He said, 'It's not finished.  It was just getting interesting.  What did
   the son do next?  What happened to the Queen?'

   'Scathach?' she shrugged.  'I don't know yet.'

   'Can't you give me a hint?'

   Tallis laughed.  She was suddenly warm again, and whatever event had
   overtaken her had passed away.  She jumped to a low branch and swung
   from it, causing a small shower of leaves to descend upon the man below.
   'I can't give you a hint about something that hasn't happened yet,' she
   said, returning to the earth and staring at him.  'It's a strange story,
   though.  Isn't it?'

Like MYTHAGO WOOD, the core of this novel is a quest, but in this case the
story doesn't stop at the end of the forest.  Despite the quest elements,
the plot is not entirely linear, and by the end it has undergone a number
of strange contortions that lead to some apparent paradoxes.  The paradoxes
are quite enjoyable, however, and if you can grasp the structure of the
Wood's universe, you can see that such paradoxes are essential...  The very
last part of the novel just blew me away -- I'd been a little afraid that I
might know what to expect, and was I ever wrong.

I'm normally a bit hesitant to purchase sequels, especially sequels to
important novels like MYTHAGO WOOD.  The latter book didn't really leave me
with any feeling of loose ends; when I heard about LAVONDYSS, I found it
difficult to imagine how Holdstock could write about the same material
again without cheapening it, or being repetitious.  I was greatly and
pleasantly surprised -- I actually think LAVONDYSS may be an even better
novel than MYTHAGO WOOD.  One nice feature of LAVONDYSS is that it does not
recycle the main characters of WOOD, although we are treated to some
incidental characters who were skimped on in WOOD.  None of the main plot
events of WOOD have any bearing on the plot of LAVONDYSS.  The two novels
are almost completely independent.  I liked this book almost as much as
John Crowley's LITTLE, BIG, and I think it goes deeper into its subject
matter.  I'll be surprised if LAVONDYSS isn't up for the same awards that
MYTHAGO WOOD was.

I read in the December LOCUS that Holdstock is working on a third 'Mythago
Wood' novel.  I wonder what he can write about that can beat both MYTHAGO
WOOD and LAVONDYSS...  How about TALLIS IN WONDERLAND? :-)

That wasn't me -- that was my mythago,

Donn Seeley
University of Utah CS Dept
(801) 581-5668
donn@utah-cs.arpa
utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 88 20:29:58 GMT
From: steckel@alliant.com (Geoff Steckel)
Subject: Re: Thurb

The (unsupported and unverified) story of "The Universal Pantograph" (as I
was told) is that a manuscript exists, but that at least one publisher has
rejected it, for unspecified reasons, and that Panshin was unwilling to
make changes.  Really too bad; the game of High Tag sounded like a good way
to keep grown men busy...

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 21:32:29 GMT
From: jf2z+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Charles Fiala)
Subject: Fuzzies and Piper

Hello out there in netland.  I just finished the Fuzzy trilogy by H. Beam
Piper, and was wondering two things:

1) Does anyone have a complete list of the books Piper wrote?  I know of
the Paratime books (Paratime and Lord Calvin of OtherWhen), The Cosmic
Computer, and two "mininovels" I have at home, but I would Love to read
more of his.

2) In the end of "Fuzzies and other people", Leslie Coombes (sp?), the
lawyer for the Charterless Zarathrusta Company, adopts eight fuzzies (the
ones caught in the fire).  Howabout making up some names for them?  They
aren't named in the book, but it would be fun to try to guess what he would
have named them.  After all, the largest running joke in the books is Jack
Halloway learning of some Fuzzies new names, and commenting that some
people gave fuzzies the damnnest names.  Takers?

John Charles Fiala

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 88 02:15:38 GMT
From: uhnix1!flatline!erict@soma.neuro.bcm.tmc.edu (j eric townsend)
Subject: _Dinner at Deviant's Palace_: review, no spoilers

First, I hate rip-off, plotless, inane, macho fantasies about the world
after the ballon goes up.  I would have never bought this book had I not
see Tim Powers speak at ArmadilloConX.  It has the *worst* cover I've seen
in a while (that there are no semi-nude women on it is its saving grace
:-).

Forget what you've been told about the world in the future.  It's a product
of bad Italian movies, equally bad sf (I use that term loosely) and just
plain ole lack of creativity.

Powers is quick and on his feet.  His writing style is fluid and
pleasurable to read.  Narration of events is quite nice.  I never found
myself wondering "Wait, how did that happen?" or "I though Dr. Foo was
making a lamp, not a hydrogen bomb."

A plot synopsis would spoil the book, I feel.  A key part of the book is
the slow introduction of facts about the world, and how the characters
learn about the facts they aren't aware of.

Anyway.  What books would I compare it with?  Um, can't think of any right
off hand.  _Hiero's Journey_, is the closest book I can think of.  It's
equal as far as originality, removedness from the typical junk fiction,
etc.

I haven't read anything else by Powers, so I can't comment on the
consistency of _DaDP_ with his other works.

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Tx, 77007
UUCP:   uunet!sugar!flatline!erict
..!bellcore!texbell!/

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 18:58:25 GMT
From: worley@ardent.ardent.com (John Worley)
Subject: Reviews Wanted: THE LABYRINTH GATE by Alis Rassmusen

   Has anyone read the new paperback "The Labyrinth Gate" by Alis Rassumsen
(published by Baen)?  I would be interested in reviews, comments, etc.
Please respond by email; I will summarize.

Regards,
John Worley
{uunet,hplabs,ubvax}!ardent!worley

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 88 23:10:27 GMT
From: garth!hal@pyramid.com (Hal Broome)
Subject: Re: Robert Silverberg question/Mound Builders

My favorite book of Silverberg's (apart from B of SKULLS, which caught the
sixties' era so well that I'll have to go back and read it again sometime
to see how dated it seems, if any) is The Mound Builders, a well-researched
history of the Southeastern Amerindian tribes and the huge ceremonial
mounds which they built all over the South.  My grandfather, who is part
Choctaw, bought part of the tribal land after serving in WW1 and still
lives by a village spring (which has since subsided).  The fields which
have been plowed for years still bestow arrowheads like easter eggs, from
the miniscule "bird point," used by the children in blow pipes, to the
jagged spearpoint for the older games.  My favorite find is a flat, baked
gorget with the Southern Death Cult cross scraped through it as a design;
it is believed to be a symbol of the sun, having come up from Mexico.  And
although there are no mounds on his property--plowing is the usual fate-- a
drive through the countryside along rivers will bring you shortly to
impressive examples.  Robert Silverberg not only knows his topic, but
delivers an enlightening treatise on the changing views of the early
Europeans to something that went against their experience.

A great camping trip, if you enjoy early American archaeology, consists of
driving up the Natchez Trace (or better yet, hiking the original trail by
the highway) with a brochure from the Park Agency; not only do you have the
huge Emerald Mound outside of Natchez (and don't forget the home village of
the Natchez inside the city; not as big, but more strange), you will also
cross historically significant tribal areas as the Cole Creek culture, the
Choctaw, and the Chickasaw and many smaller, less well-known groups.

hal

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 88 22:44:39 GMT
From: microsoft!gordonl@uunet.uu.net (Gordon Letwin)
Subject: Re: Mound Builders & Mormons

hal@garth.UUCP (Hal Broome) writes:
> My favorite book of Silverberg's ...  is The Mound Builders, a
> well-researched history of the Southeastern Amerindian tribes and the
> huge ceremonial mounds which they built all over the South.
	...  
> Robert Silverberg not only knows his topic, but delivers an enlightening
> treatise on the changing views of the early Europeans to something that
> went against their experience.

I read a chapter-sized excerpt or condensation from the Silverberg book,
then a few days later read a book titled "Trouble Enough" (forget the
author) about Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism.  It turns out that
Mormonism is founded upon the fanciful explanations that the settlers
invented to explain the mounds.

As Silverberg points out, all other lands had ruins left from earlier,
major civilizations - Stonehenge, the pyramids, South American pyramids,
etc., but North America had none.  Then the mounds were discovered -
evidence of a past, great civilization.  They couldn't have been built by
Indians - not only because of white prejudice, but because the eastern US
Indian cultures at that time weren't building mounds and didn't appear to
have the degree of large scale organization needed to build one.

So, they must have been built by some earlier civilization, undoubtedly
white, that's gone now.  Yeah, thats the ticket!  The reds KILLED THEM OFF.
Although I don't think it received much scholarly credit, the popular
theory of the time was that the ancient moundbuilding whites were one of
the lost tribes of Egypt, and that the Indians were another, "evil" tribe
that was turned red by god as a sign of their sins.  This evil tribe wiped
out the good tribe before the European settlers came.

Anyhow, Joseph Smith was a con man and a treasure digger.  In parts of the
US in his time the "earlier great civilization" myth was widely believed,
along with the "fact" that there must be great amounts of burried treasure
left over from those days.  Treasure diggers like Smith generally claimed
communication with spirts of the lost peoples and provided, for a fee,
advice on where to dig for treasure.  Smith claimed, for example, that
every small plot of land had at least 4 or 5 major treasure chests on it.

People would dig for the treasure but never find it.  Smith would claim
that it was protected by spirits that caused the treasure to sink as fast
as the diggers dug.  The proper payment of moneys and sheep to Smith would
provide a ceremony which would prevent that, although it never seemed to
work.

Although many people were gullible enough to fall for it, a lot weren't,
and many fell for it only once.  There's lots of testimony recorded in the
courthouse of the place where he lived at that time from his various trials
on fraud charges.

Anyhow, one day Smith came up with this great idea - one of his "spirit
guides", Moroni, by name, told him where there were golden tablets burried
in one of the mounds, tablets that would tell the whole story of the lost
tribes.

Smith carried around a sack which he claimed contained the golden tablets,
but no one was allowed to look in the sack because if they did so, the
tablets would be turned to ordinary rocks.  [Yes, I guess before TV, folks
were a lot more gullible, on average].  Later, when a family member was
sceptical and tried to peek at the "tablets" he burried them in the forest.
Then, he "psychically" translated them into English, producing the first
Book of Mormon.  Another relative (as I recall) arranged for that
manuscript to be destroyed when it was to be published, and now Smith was
in a real panic.  If he had truly translated the tablets he could just do
it again, but since he made the stuff up as he went along, he knew he
couldn't do it again in exactly the same way, and the people to whom he had
dictated the first version would surely notice some details were different.
Geez, what to do, what to do...

Finally, he had an inspiration.  There were *TWO* sets of tablets,
something he'd forgotten to mention.  The second set was a revised and
enhanced edition, and now he was going to translate the SECOND set.  This
is what became the Current Book of Mormon.  For those who remember the
Mormon bombings of a few years ago, it was papers from this time period,
and I think perhaps a claimed copy of the original lost manuscript, that
the forger was peddling when he got blown up.  It's neat to see how events
from long ago are still causing effects.

Anyhow, it's a fascinating story.  So it's interesting to note that this
religion was founded on such (in modern times) obviously bogus grounds, and
yet seems to thrive regardless.

The author of "trouble enough" points out that Mormonism had the
disadvantage of being founded during a time of good record keeping and
widespread litteracy, thus leaving an embarassing paper trail which the
other major religions of today don't have to worry about.  Doesn't seem to
have slowed the Mormons down any, though.

Gordon Letwin

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 88 14:24:05 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Re: The Complete Time Traveler Guide.

mears@hpindda.HP.COM (David B. Mears) writes: 
> Hmmmmm.  I remember the term `Chrono Synclastic Infindibulum' from
> somewhere in my childhood/youth, but I don't ever remember reading any
> Vonnegut.  Did he borrow the term from elsewhere, or did someone else
> borrow it from him, or I am just in a strange state of Deja Vu?

Possibly you saw "Between Time and Timbuktu", a PBS-made special cobbled
together by Vonnegut from a bunch of his stories.  Someone wins a contest
in which first prize is a trip through the C.S.I.

One of my favorite parts wasn't from a Vonnegut story at all but featured
Bob and Ray as a news commentator and the first man on Mars.  While the
poor contest winner is being bounced through time, their "commentary"
consists of things like "You compared the Martian sands to your driveway.
Why is that?"  "I have a red driveway."

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,cbosgd,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@CANCER.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 22 Dec 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 347

Today's Topics:

		Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & M. A. Foster &
                        Gerrold & Norton & Powers & Zelazny &
                        Story Request & Cyberpunk (2 msgs) &
                        Author Recommendations (2 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 88 20:03:07 GMT
From: dht@drutx.att.com (D. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson (no spoilers, I think)

boz@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (John Boswell) writes:
> I just finished "The Mirror of Her Dreams" by Donaldson.  I am *very*
> disappointed.  Granted I started the novel not having very high
> expectations, but unfortunately it lived up (down?) to all of them.  (The
> only reason I read the book in the first place was because I forgot to
> send it back to the book- club.)  I don't understand why so many people
> supposedly *like* his work.  I put "Lord Foul's Bane" down after only
> 1/2-way through because I *really* couldn't stand his "antihero" (or
> whatever) character.  I almost put this new one down for the same reason,
> but managed to get through it.  I really think that by 600 pages that the
> main character should have *matured* a hell of a lot more.

I struggled through the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant until the bitter end.
This guy assaults the English language with a chain-saw, he hacks
adjectives _and_ adverbs, he murders verbs. Gene Wolfe does a lot better
than Stephen Dollarsign, he knows the English language like a caretaker, or
like a lover. I too hated his 'leper' antihero, he complains about his fate
until the end of the series. He's a fifth-rate Stephen King. He's so
flowery in his writing, he _over_describes every scene. I'm a literary
critic, so I know what I'm talking about in Dollarsign's writing.  Maybe he
should take pen and paper, to write his infinitiseries.  I condemn him to a
_manual_ typewriter with _no_ correcting fluid.  Dollarsign's characters
are static, depressed people, he's 'alas- alackaday' kind of writer that we
know all too well in Seventies fantasy (I include David Eddings, Piers
Anthony, and the mavens of feminine power fantasy: MZB, Anne 'Dragon'
McCaffrey, and of course! K-K-K-K-Katherine Kurtz with her fourth-rate
knockoff of the Welsh legends in _The Mabinigoin_). The only great fantasy
books I have read in the past ten years are Mormon Scott Card's Hart's
Hope_ and Richard Adams' _Shardik_.

I don't even like J. 'R.R.' Tolkien that much, for too many reasons to go
into here. I'll never buy a book by Dollarsign again.  Just like I'll never
buy a book by Clarke, Asimov, or Varley. They have disappointed me so many
times, in their characterization, narrative, dialogue, and their choice
of words.

>Anyway, my *real* point: What are other peoples' opinions about a book
>that leaves you *hanging* after 600 pages?  I mean really....Donaldson
>could have at least tied up *one* loose end before forcing the reader to
>buy another (probably 600 pages) book???

That's the American fantasy market. Dollarsign's publisher gets more money
if he leaves you hanging at the end, and so does Dollarsign make a bundle
at B.Dalton's (I hate that character who says 'you can call me 'Books')
_and_ Waldenbooks (who thought that they would steal Thoreau's idea without
paying for it!).

>Well, enough rambling.  Needless to say I am not very fond of this dude.

Neither am I, John. I personally spit curses at that dude.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 88 16:52:13 GMT
From: bing@mcnc.org (Carter E. Bing)
Subject: Re: Stephen R. Donaldson (no spoilers, I think)

   Well maybe I`m just a strange person but I really enjoyed the Covenant
series. I`ve even considered mail a set to Bush and Reagan.(but that`s
another story) I just finshed re-reading The One Tree and have a chapter or
two left in White Gold ....... I guess that it just depends on what you
like when it comes to fantasy. I have noticed that when it comes to
Donaldson most people either love his work or hate it....
  
   Now as far as Mirror of Her Dreams is concerned I have read that and
found it slow and sometimes boring reading. The second book of the set
really picks up the pace and it really makes up for the first....

Carter
bing@mcnc.org

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 88 19:40:00 GMT
From: lsmith@apollo.com (Larry Smith)
Subject: Re: Romance in Science Fiction

gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes:
>neff@helens.Stanford.EDU (Randall B. Neff) writes:

>>1.  Which science fiction book contains the best (most moving) romance 
>>    story between two humans?  (not necessarily pornographic)
>
>The Warriors of Dawn, by M.A. Foster (Not Alan Dean Foster!)
>
>>2.  Between an Alien and a human?
>
>The Warriors of Dawn
>
>Anyone else out there a fan of Foster, Warriors of Dawn and the sequel
>The Game Players of Zan?

I've always liked those books.  Don't forget his other book in that
background, "The Day of the Klesh".

The Klesh really fascinate me.  Being an unrepentant xenophiliac, I love
the idea of new races of humans besides the miserable half-dozen or so that
we now have.

For those of you not in the know, the degenerate Ler in "Warriors of Dawn"
bred humans captured on raids into human space into a great variety of new
races.  Sort of like what we do with dogs and cats.  But Foster goes into
little detail on the various Klesh races except for the hero's Zlat
girlfriend.

(Zlats are light in build, with very pale skin and red hair.  They are
distinguished by having a thick pelt of red hair from the knees down to the
ankles.  They were originally bred for "electronics assembly", as I recall,
but the Warriors had regressed to the point where electronics were no
longer needed, so the race was maintained as a tradition.)

Are there any other books anyone can think of that speculate on new human
racial types?  What do people think of the idea of races in general?

My own hunch is that races (not necessarily cultures) are likely to begin
to merge in the next few thousand years, and that "white" and "black", etc.
are likely to gradually loose their meaning.  Laurance Manning assumed
something of the sort in his "Man Who Awoke" series, and I think it likely
that increasing understanding and amity between *cultures* will break down
cultural barriers to interracial marriage.  My own feelings on the topic on
that are contradictory.  My foaming-at-the-mouth libertarian principles
despise the very idea of controlling sexual contacts, yet the idea of
loosing racial distinctions is not appealing either.  I *like* different
races.

Anybody have any other thoughts?

Larry Smith
lsmith@apollo1.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 88 07:22:23 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Chtorr questions

I have the opportunity to talk to David Gerrold about the upcoming re-issue
of his Chtorr series. I'd like to toss this open to the group mind: what
questions would you like asked about Chtorr?

A couple of notes on this: this won't be an interview per-se, but will
eventually be boiled down to a Behind The Scenes article for an upcoming
OtherRealms. Also, only questions on Chtorr will be considered -- not his
other writing, and not other projects like ST:TNG.

Please e-mail your questions to me. I'll package the most interesting ones
together and get them off, and we'll see what happens.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 88 02:16:50 GMT
From: twakeman@hpcea.ce.hp.com (Teriann Wakeman)
Subject: Re: Author Lists: Andre Norton

looking through the Andre Norton list, I have read 79 of them & probably
still have all 79 still on my bookshelfs. Gads no wonder I'm out of shelf
space.

I am one of those people who grew up reading her novels but I also got
tired of her single story framework.

GENERIC STORY

HERO: young, outcast of some kind or from discriminated against group. No
special training. Special magical or physic abilities.

BAD guys: Fat, physically ugly, given to dark magic or evil.

STORY: hero goes on trip, learns to use special power.overcomes evil during
trip.

TRIP SCENES: Go through country. 
             Special relationships with some animals.
             Part of trip underground. 
             Underground passage includes large caverns where hero can not
                see either end. 
             Caverns full of vegetation from other planets.
             Cavern with walls wide enough to walk upon. 
             Were abandoned underground city. 
             Had animal pens. Some are broken & there may be old wild
                animals about. 
             Underground crevices & rivers (tends to be nasty animals in
                them). 
             At least one passage with sickly green phosphorescent slimey
                growth & evil toad stools. 
             Common wall writing consisting of coloured bands that make the
             hero's eyes hurt whe he/she looks at them.

GUIDELINES: Hero triumps where trained experts fail.
            Primitive technology & magic/physic powers triumph over hi-tech.
            Human animal bond closer & more important then human-human 
            Relationships. American Indian culture wherever possible.

OK with this generic story you could write an Andre Norton book yourself.
I have much respect for the Lady. I just wish she had a little more
imagination for story sequences.

Probably about to be flamed royally for criticising a SF great 

TeriAnn

------------------------------

From: vnend@phoenix.princeton.edu (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: _Dinner at Deviant's Palace_: review, no spoilers
Date: 20 Dec 88 20:59:24 GMT

erict@flatline.UUCP (J Eric Townsend) writes:
>I haven't read anything else by Powers, so I can't comment on the
>consistency of _DaDP_ with his other works.

   I can.  It is just like all his other stuff (with the exception of his
first sale, which was a little weak): Good, well-written historical
fiction.  The problem is that DaDP is set in the future, but it still comes
across as well as _The Drawing of the Dark_, _The Anubis Gates_, or _On
Stranger Tides_.  It is stronger than _Forsake the Sky_, his first.  Powers
is a good solid buy.

vnend@phoenix.princeton.edu
vnend@pucc.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 88 18:06:56 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Author Lists: Roger Zelazny

>> Another good author.  I've read all of these except "A Dark Traveling"
>> (not out in paperback yet).
>Got any more info about this one??? I haven't heard of it.

A Dark Travelling [Walker & Company hardcover, upcoming paperback from Avon
sometimes in 1989] is a Young Adult novel from the Millennium series
packaged by Bryon Preiss. It's a nice, rather inoffensive book,
conservatively written on well known themes. Also somewhat short. I read it
in about an hour, enjoyed it without being overly wowed. To quote my review
in OtherRealms: "A minor work by a major author" -- probably not worth
buying in hardcover except as a gift to a younger reader, but Zelazny fans
will generally want to read it when it hits paperback (earliest will
probably be summer or fall, since it's not on Avon's lists through April).

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 88 00:29:11 GMT
From: stewarte@rutgers.edu (Sold by weight, not volume)
Subject: Help: "Out There Where The Big Ships Go"

A friend of mine is looking for a story called "Out There Where The Big
Ships Go".  He doesn't know the author; he thinks it appeared in a "Year's
Best SF" anthology about 10 years ago.

If anyone recognizes this & can provide more information, please e-mail it
to the address below.  Thanks!

Bill Kennedy
bill@ssbn.WLK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 88 04:45:55 GMT
From: yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk?  (William Gibson)

ccdsimon@vega.ucdavis.edu writes:
>As for more cyberpunk none immediately spring to mind although I'll also
>be interested since many of the books I buy/beg/steal/borrow turn out not
>be cyberpunk as such - I wonder if cyberpunk is recognised as a term by
>the publishers and maybe could therefore be made more obvious as such.

Like any other literary classification, cyberpunk has rather fuzzy borders.
I suggest the following as good books, which I personally consider to be
cyberpunk-ish.  The follow authors are listed more-or-less in order of
personal preference.

William Gibson          (archetypal cyberpunk -- and excellent fiction)
                        Neuromancer
                        Count Zero
                        Mona Lisa Overdrive
                        Burning Chrome (short stories)

Walter Jon Williams     (cyberpunk ala Roger Zelazny)
                        Hardwired
                        Voice of the Whirlwind

Vernor Vinge            (a hard SF story with cyberpunk ideas)

                        True Names (predates Neuromancer)

K. W. Jeter             (cyberpunk ala Phillip Dick)

                        The Glass Hammer

Michael Swanwick        Vacuum Flowers

Bruce Sterling          Schismatrix

   There is also a collection of "cyberpunk" short stories edited by Bruce
Sterling called "Mirrorshades".  I found it somewhat disappointing, and I
personally would consider only half of the stories to be cyberpunk -- but
it depends on your definitions.

Brian Yamauchi
University of Rochester
Computer Science Department
yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Dec 88 02:27:37 EST
From: jhorowit@SALAD.BBN.COM
Subject: Cyberpunk

Not only is it cyberpunk, Gibson's work is basically the _definitive_
cyberpunk.  _Count Zero_ and _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ (his latest work) are
both sequels (in that order) to _Neuromancer_.  _Burning Chrome_ is a
complete anthology of his short fiction.

Other CP titles that may interest you:

_Vacuum Flowers_ -- by Michael Swanwick
_In the Drift_ -- by Michael Swanwick
_Schismatrix_ -- by Bruce Sterling
_Mindplayers_ -- by Pat Cadigan
_Blood Music_ -- by Greg Bear
_Voice of the Whirlwind_ -- by Walter Jon Williams
_Hard Wired_ -- by Walter Jon Williams
_Software_ -- by Rudy Rucker
_Frontera_ -- by Lewis Shiner
_Mirrorshades: the Cyberpunk Anthology_ -- edited by Bruce Sterling

In addition, the works of William S. Burroughs might be considered as
precursors to the genre, as well as the work of Alfred Bester.

Lloyd M. Haskins
lmhg0369@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 88 10:40:05 GMT
From: dl1@ukc.ac.uk (D.Langford)
Subject: Another Niven?

I like early Niven; I don't - much - like later Niven.

Somewhere out there are enormous numbers of books; and /some/ must be
similar in style to the inventive 'hard' sf I enjoy - but which ones? I've
tried finding new authors by looking at dustjackets and reading the
publisher's summary, but even if they were always 100% accurate, they never
tell me what I want to know.

Has anyone else found an author/s who's writing is similar to the 'Known
Space' Niven? Xmas is coming, and I'd love an excuse to buy a stack of new
books....

Duncan

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 88 07:28:18 GMT
From: vsi1!v7fs1!mvp@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Another Niven?

dl1@ukc.ac.uk (D.Langford) writes:
>I like early Niven; I don't - much - like later Niven.
>...Has anyone else found an author/s who's writing is similar to the
>'Known Space' Niven? Xmas is coming, and I'd love an excuse to buy a stack
>of new books....

I agree -- I like most of Niven's stories, but the earlier ones definitely
had something that's missing in the later ones.

Here's my list:

Poul Anderson: Any of the Polesotechnic League stories (_Satan's World_,
_The Man Who Counts_ (aka _War of the Wing Men_, forsooth), and _The
Trouble Twisters_) and _The Avatar_ and _The High Crusade_.  Anything by
Anderson is bound to be good, but these seem to be most like what you're
after.

David Brin's "Uplift" series: _Sundiver_, _Startide Rising_, and _The
Uplift War_.  _Sundiver_ is Brin's first novel, and it shows a bit, but
it's definitely worth reading.  The other two are outstanding.

C. J. Cherryh's _The Pride of Chanur_.  Watch out for the other three books
in the series, _Chanur's Venture_, _The Kif Strike Back_, and _Chanur
Homecoming_.  They're as good as "Pride", but they're a trilogy with
cliffhangers -- get all three before starting.  "Pride" stands on its own,
so you can just read it to see if you like them.

Hal Clement, especially earlier books, like _Needle_, _Iceworld_, and, of
course, _Mission of Gravity_.

_Spacepaw_, by Gordon Dickson.

_Dragon's Egg_, by Robert Forward.  The literary types will faint dead away
at the awfulness of his prose, but Forward's picture of life on the surface
of a neutron star is not to be missed by any TRUE lover of SF. :)

Robert Heinlein's "juveniles": _The Star Beast_, _Have Spacesuit, Will
Travel_, _The Rolling Stones_, _The Door Into Summer_, etc.

James Hogan -- _Inherit the Stars_.

James H. Schmitz's "Telzey Amberdon" stories, _The Universe Against Her_,
_The Lion Game_, and _The Telzey Toy_.  Also _The Demon Breed_.

Timothy Zahn, _Cascade Point_ and _Spinnerette_.

I don't know about how similar some of these are to Niven, but they seem to
me to have some of the same elements.  At least, these are some books I
like as well as early Niven, and, it seems to me, for many of the same
reasons.

Mike Van Pelt
...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp

------------------------------

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SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 22 Dec 1988      Volume 13 : Issue 348

Today's Topics:

			 Books - Wilson (11 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 14:16:22 GMT
From: johnj@ihuxy.att.com (Jaworski)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

> One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never
> read his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
> bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.
> Normally I don't hesitate to read a book by a previously-unread author,
> but since each of these volumes is nearly a thousand pages in length, I
> would like some comments before I jump in.

Well, I wouldn't call Robert Anton Wilson not mentioned in this newsgroup.
In fact I mentioned him about 2 weeks ago.  I have read several of his
books including the Illuminatus Trilogy, The Illuminati Papers, The Earth
Will Shake, and the Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.  The main reason you
probably have never seen his work before is because his work was mostly
done underground (to sort of say).

He use to write for Playboy (or was it Penthouse?) magazine, and now he
writes several columns in various magazines including Magical Blend and
other "New Age" magazines.

The Ill-Trilogy and the "Cat" were written about 8 or so years ago and are
being re-released due to the new interest in the "New Age" and the fact
that more people wish to read his work.  The Trilogy hardly sold at all
when it first came out, but when it was re-released about 3 years ago, it
started to catch on.  I bought the Ill-Trilogy when it came out about 3
years ago, it had a red cover (the cover on them now sort of blueish), and
read half-way through and stopped.  I was the most boring book I ever had
read.  I gave the book to my friend, he read it half-way through and
stopped.  About 5 months later, he picked it up again and this time read it
all the way through and gave it back to me.  This time, I read it all the
way through.  It was one of the most weirdest books I have ever read.  I
loved it and hated it at the same time.

Robert Anton Wilson's style is one of distortion.  He takes pieces of
history and makes a person wonder what is true and what is false.  He
covers the JFK shooting, in a new light, The True Illuminati and our first
president, drugs, political games, Fernado Poo, and massive conspiracy
plots.  I would highly recomend this book to a person with an open mind and
one who has too much to care anymore.

The Cat is more like an Aliens view of our world and a couple of it's
possible futures.  I would recomend reading the Illuminatus first, then the
Illuminati Papers, then the Cat.  The Earth Will Shake is just an early
history of the Illuminati and is fun reading.

Just remember, If you read the Ill-Triology, you might never be the same
again.  I would say it affected my whole life, and I'm not kidding.

John Jaworski

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 88 23:39:33 GMT
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

>One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never
>read his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
>bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.
>[...]  since each of these volumes is nearly a thousand pages in length, I
>would like some comments before I jump in.

_Illuminatus!_ is designed to put your brain through an eggbeater. It
contains many revelations about what *REALLY* happened in our history, and
the influence of various secret societies on our minds, culture, and
behavior. All of this is made up by the authors, of course, except the
parts that aren't. You decide which is which.
   But what _Illuminatus!_ really is, is an introduction to enlightenment,
in the classic, occult, Zen / Buddhist / Bobbist sense of the word. It
contains some real insights. None of that is made up, except the parts that
are. Again, you decide.
    On both counts, the authors are trying to bamboozle you. (Usually.)

_Schroedinger's Cat_ is similar, except that it's more enlightenment about
society and less about people. (Did that make sense?)

Well, it can't hurt to read them. They're fun, too.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 88 02:16:42 GMT
From: uhnix1!flatline!erict@soma.neuro.bcm.tmc.edu (j eric townsend)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

atc@cs.utexas.edu (Alvin T. Campbell III) writes:
> One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never
> read his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
> bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.

Well, SCT has been out of print for ages.  I'm really glad they reprinted it.

Read Illuminatus Trilogy first, for no real reason except I like it more.
It's really wonderful, and is a great change from "normal" fiction.

RAW has written about a wide range of subjects, most of the metaphysical or
philosophical.  He's written a play, _Wilhelm Reich in Hell_, and currently
lives in Ireland because writers get an income tax exemption there. :-)

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Tx, 77007
UUCP:   uunet!sugar!flatline!erict
..!bellcore!texbell!/

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 88 01:06:07 GMT
From: w25y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

atc@cs.utexas.edu (Alvin T. Campbell III) writes:
>One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never
>read his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
>bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.
>Normally I don't hesitate to read a book by a previously-unread author,
>but since each of these volumes is nearly a thousand pages in length, I
>would like some comments before I jump in.

    The Illuminatus trilogy is a paranoid's wet dream come true.  If you've
ever felt that there was a plot underlying everything, meet the Illuminati,
who are out to establish law and order and bring about the end of the
world.  Is John Dillinger alive?  Is Billy Grahm actually the Devil?  Is it
possible that H. P. Lovecraft wasn't kidding?  Find the answer to all these
questions and more in _Illuminatus!_.
    One thing that makes these books so errie is that the references his
characters quote are LEGIT.  I checked his Brittanica entry on
"Illuminati"; it was word for word correct.  At least some of this crap is
real!

Paul Ciszek
W25Y@CRNLVAX5
W25Y@VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 88 07:13:53 GMT
From: kbrowne@orchid.waterloo.edu (Keith D. Browne)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

atc@cs.utexas.edu (Alvin T. Campbell III) writes:
>One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never
>read his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
>bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.
>Normally I don't hesitate to read a book by a previously-unread author,
>but since each of these volumes is nearly a thousand pages in length, I
>would like some comments before I jump in.

If you're looking for a relatively painless introduction to Robert Anton
Wilson, I'd suggest you start with _Masks of the Illuminati_.  It sort of
falls in with the rest of the novels you mention (the Illuminatus! trilogy
and the Schroedinger's Cat books) but tends to stand better on its own.

I've been a RAW fan for years, and I've yet to finish the Illuminatus!
trilogy entirely.  I've found an entertaining pastime, though; just sit
down and start reading random sections in the book, in random order.  The
thing doesn't take PLACE in sequential order, so why READ it in sequential
order?

Besides, this way, the synchronistic concepts of the book come through much
more clearly.  :-)

Keith Browne

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 88 15:32:51 GMT
From: kaydin@jarthur.claremont.edu (the vampire)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

atc@cs.utexas.edu (Alvin T. Campbell III) writes:
>One of these unmentioned writers in Robert Anton Wilson.  I have never
>read his work, but I have noticed a couple of his books frequently in
>bookstores: The Illuminatus Trilogy and The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy.

  Good lord, yes.  They are worth the read.  Illuminatus as Schroedinger
are two quasi-related books (Illuminatus coming first) although you don't
need to read one to read the other and since (in my opinion) the Cat is the
better of the two, you might want to skip ahead to that.

  The books are semi-policital statement/conspiracy theory/quantum physical
books all about the universe next door.  Sort of like Thomas Pynchon on
very serious drugs.

kaydin@jarthur.claremont.edu
kaydin@hmcvax.bitnet
kaydin@jarthur.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 88 17:48:34 GMT
From: spies!tbetz@philabs.philips.com (Tom Betz)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

kbrowne@orchid.waterloo.edu (Keith D. Browne) writes:
>I've been a RAW fan for years, and I've yet to finish the Illuminatus!
>trilogy entirely.  I've found an entertaining pastime, though; just sit
>down and start reading random sections in the book, in random order.  The
>thing doesn't take PLACE in sequential order, so why READ it in sequential
>order?

How do you manage that?  I couldn't put it down, once I picked it up, and I
found it >very< sequential in nature.  The sequentiality was not in the
original RAW version, however, it was imposed by DAW and Robert Anson, whom
DAW hired to rewrite the Illuminatus Book.  RAW originally had one huge
manuscript that ended up being _The Illuminatus Trilogy_, _Schroedingers'
Cat_, and _Masks of the Illuminati_.  From what I understand, the
synchronistic style of _Schroedinger's Cat_ comes closest to the style of
the original.
 
I very much appreciated the way _The Illuminatus Trilogy_ starts out with
what seems to be unconnected threads that slowly converge, weaving and
wrapping around each other until they become strings, then a stout rope,
that, by the end of book 3, reveals itself to be tied in a noose around the
readers' neck!

There is structure there, imposed by Anson... and while I appreciate and
enjoy RAW's brilliance and madness, I also appreciate Anson's formal
contribution.

_Schroedinger's Cat_ I would read as you described... but _The Illuminatus
Trilogy_ is best appreciated, in my opinion, by an intense cover-to-cover
read.
 
Take a week off from everything else and read it... you'll be glad you did!

Tom Betz
ZCNY, Yonkers
NY 10701-2509
...philabs!spies!tbetz
tbetz@spies.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 88 16:48:57 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: _Illuminatus!

And now, they abound once again fnord. Postings about the _Illuminatus!_
trilogy. Probably though, none of you remember the last set of postings
about it; they keep getting edited.

I can't recommend _Illuminatus!_ enough (watch: "Read the _Illuminatus!_
Trilogy! Read it, I say! Haven't you read it yet?" See? Not enough.)  but I
can make suggestions. First, I recommend that, while reading it, you should
assiduously follow Timmy Leary's rules for safe tripping.  Be prepared for
my person and narrators to change person, number and identity with(out)
warning. Re-read every time you catch yourself examining your
spirituality--but don't let anyone know what you learn by doing so. Don't
believe anything you read in the trilogy...large quantities of it are
true...  in many cases truer than reality is.

Each time I've delved into the _Illuminatus!_, I've re-emerged several
hours or days later unable to perceive anything the way I did before.
Simple pleasures send me into paroxisms of paranoia while obvious dangers
seem comfortingly apparent and uncomplicated. Better yet, try alternating
chapters of _Illuminatus!_ with chapters of _Godel,Escher,Bach_..you didn't
_need_ that reality, did you?

Erich Rickheit,KSC
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
508-453-1753
...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 88 17:48:37 GMT
From: djo@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

tbetz@spies.UUCP (Tom Betz) writes:
>[I] found [the ILLUMINATUS! trilogy] >very< sequential in nature.  The
>sequentiality was not in the original RAW version, however, it was imposed
>by DAW and Robert Anson, whom DAW hired to rewrite the Illuminatus Book.
>RAW originally had one huge manuscript that ended up being _The
>Illuminatus Trilogy_, _Schroedingers' Cat_, and _Masks of the Illuminati_.

What in the *WORLD* are you talking about?

The ILLUMINATUS! trilogy was originally published by Pyramid, *not* DAW,
and there is, to the best of my knowledge no such person as "Robert Anson."
There are a Robert An*t*on Wilson, and a Robert Shea, who co-wrote the
ILLUMINATUS!  trilogy, and a Robert Anson Heinlein, who is dead, and a
Robert Anson Wilson, who lives in The Universe Next Door, but no Robert
Anson.

Nor was either of the ILLUMINATUS! authors brought in by the publisher to
"clean up" the other's manuscript.  I've had the opportunity for
conversation -- alas, brief! -- with the extremely strange RAW, and it is
*quite* clear that the book was a collaboration from the beginning.

What Pyramid *did* do was make them cut about 100K words from the
manuscript.  I suspect that this was a Good Thing.  I suspect that this was
an Excellent Thing.  There are no "gaps" in the book as it exists (except
the deliberate gaps that you are intended to and can puzzle out for
yourself, and the ones that lead to the Dr. Lao-like "questions" in the
Appendices); so I conclude that what was trimmed was, by and large, fat.
Certainly there's a significant amount of fat in the SCHROEDINGER'S CAT
books.  MASKS, on the other hand, is as tightly constructed and written as
the ILLUMINATUS! text we have received.

I'd add my voice to those recommending linear reading of ILLUMINATUS!, by
the way.  It's a strange and non-linear book, but the non-linearity is
planned to give an overall effect which would be lost by beginning at a
random spot in the middle.  Rather like a pointillist painting: it's just a
bunch of dots, not connected to one another, but if you rearranged them at
random on the canvas, you wouldn't have a picture anymore.

The ILLUMINATUS! trilogy is marvelous; so is MASKS.  SCHROEDINGER'S CAT is
a lot of good ideas that didn't quite gel, alas, though the demonstration
of quantum mechanics as a basis for fictional form is still a textbook case
of fictional form following function.  The HISTORICAL ILLUMINATUS series
(two volumes to date) has some of Wilson's best "stuff" in it, but as it's
incomplete, it's unsatisfying.  I can't say whether it will be a compact
whole like ILLUMINATUS! or a runamok like SC when it's finished.

Of Wilson's alleged nonfiction, I'd most recommend RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE
SITTING NOW.  It's a collection of odds, ends, and essays that explain a
great deal of where his head is at.  THE COSMIC TRIGGER is fun, but it's
ultimately papier a cage du chien flambe a la Casteneda, if you follow me.
Ull-bay it-shay.  And I was unable to read PROMETHEUS RISING.

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 88 22:59:36 GMT
From: uhnix1!flatline!erict@soma.neuro.bcm.tmc.edu (j eric townsend)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

djo@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
> Of Wilson's alleged nonfiction, I'd most recommend RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE
> SITTING NOW.  It's a collection of odds, ends, and essays that explain a
> great deal of where his head is at.  THE COSMIC TRIGGER is fun, but it's
> ultimately papier a cage du chien flambe a la Casteneda, if you follow
> me.  Ull-bay it-shay.  And I was unable to read PROMETHEUS RISING.

I thought Cosmic Trigger was a pretty good collection of Jung,
Schroedinger, UFOs and about anything else you can think of.  Fun reading,
especially if you don't have time to read any original manuscripts by great
thinkers.

_Natural Law or Why You Shouldn't Put A Rubber On Your Willy_ is a fun
argument against, you guessed it, natural law.

Promethius rising is a how-to on releasing yourself from your taught
realities.  It's for people that have trouble enjoying ILLUMINATUS!. :-)

J. Eric Townsend
511 Parker #2
Houston, Tx, 77007
uunet!sugar!flatline!erict

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 88 20:33:05 GMT
From: mkaminsk@cvbnet2.uucp (Mark Kaminsky/x4495)
Subject: Re: Robert Anton Wilson: Recommendations?

By the way, does anyone know how much truth there is to RAW's references to
Pres. George Washington growing hemp for marijuana production?  Are
Washington's letters in the book's appendix real?

If you know them, please list sources where I can read about this.

Thanks,

Mark B. Kaminsky
Computervision Division
PRIME Computer, Inc. 
Bedford, MA
UUCP: {decvax|linus|sun}!cvbnet!mkaminsk
Internet: mkaminsk@cvbnet.prime.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

