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Summary-line:  1-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #1
Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 1:43PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #1
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai

*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 1:43PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #1
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 1 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:
             SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
             SF Books - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
              Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue Jun 29 00:44:06 1982
From: decvax!watmath!jcwinterton at Berkeley
Subject: TWOK - enough, please.

        There has been enough discussion of this topic to last all of
us for a life time.  In fact, lately most of the discussion has been
on motion pictures.  Anyone noticed that ACE seems to be indulging in
a Randall Garrett festival?  Does anyone read books anymore?  John
Winterton at watmath!jcwinterton

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1982 (Tuesday) 0933-EDT
From: PUDER at Wharton-10 (Karl Puder)
Subject: Wooden Kirk?

 Did anyone else notice how many times someone asked Kirk "how do you
feel Jim? "?  It seems like they heard the critics picking on
Shatner's acting and decided to demonstrate that Kirk has feelings by
\asking/ him.

------------------------------

Date: 21 June 1982 09:20 edt
From: CLJones.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: tWoK: Kahn vs. Khan?

It is certainly quite true that the title of the movie has the name
spelled "Khan", and I was annoyed at seeing the constant misspelling
in SFL.  However, I looked in James Blish's adaptation of "Space Seed"
in the anthology 'Star Trek 2', and he had it spelled as "Kahn".  I
guess this is another example (albeit a small one) of an inconsistency
between the movie (excuse me, motion picture) and TV versions of ST.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1982 1712-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 c/o" <YOUNG at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL contribution

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V5 #70 )

(Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC) On Khan versus Kahn -- I looked up the name in
the Blishelization of Space Seed to come up with Kahn.  It surprised
many of us, as we thought we'd seen it as Khan in the movie.  Blame
Blish, we went out of our way to check up on it.

[ Khan is traditionally spelled KHAN, not KAHN.  The latter is perhaps
  an attempt at an angloization of the original spelling.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1982 0851-EDT
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Mister Saavik

"Mister" is the standard form of address for cadets at military
academies.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 82 11:51:26-EDT (Mon)
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) <earl@BRL>
Subject: Saavik

I like Saavik.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1982 1443-PDT
From: Paul Dietz <DIETZ at USC-ECL>
Subject: Roddenberry movie rumors

That's right, the original idea was to have the Enterprise encounter
god.  At one point, Bones would use one of those marvelous hand held
diagnostic things on him, and announce "He's dead, Jim!".

This may explain why the title was originally "Sartrek: The Motion
Picture".

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 1:43PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

All of the remaining messages in this digest discuss some plot details
in both the movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some
readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 16-JUN-1982 16:49
From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: TSC::COORS::VICKREY <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: For the record . . . .

Chekov was the first officer of the Reliant, not the captain as was
stated in a recent extended discussion on this list.

How come Chekov and Khan recognized each other, as "Space Seed" was
first season and Chekov didn't appear until the second?  Well,
according to the book, he was on the Enterprise at the time of "Space
Seed", doing night watches.

And finally, Khan is NOT Kahn, but KHAN!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1982 10:00 PDT
From: kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: ST:TWOK bloopers

1. "I'll bet the movie-makers knew all along that Chekhov didn't come
on board until after the Kahn episode."  Sure, after all, "Chekhov"
must have remembered if no one else did.

2. "it is hard to believe that [the computer] wouldn't have remembered
that Khan had been exiled in that system".  It states in the book that
Kirk specifically didn't record this info in the computers, so that no
one would be tempted to free Khan (or some similar reason, I forget
exactly what).

------------------------------

Date: 15-Jun-82 1:17PM-EDT (Tue)
From: David Miller <Miller at YALE>
Subject: ST-TWO-k               Remember...


                   ***************SPOILER***********

   This gives away plot details of Star Trek III "In Search Of Spock"

Well of course  I'm not  sure that  this is  really what  is going  to
happen, but then  a did  predict that a  certain Sithian  Lord had  an
abandoned child on  Tatooine within  two weeks of  "Star Wars"  coming
out.

What is the possible reason for having a genesis machine in the  movie
when a  super-bomb  would have  been  just as  good,  and a  lot  more
believable?  Why to enable Spock's body to be recreated from his  dead
corpse of course.   But what good  is Spock's body  without his  mind?
True, but what better  place to hide Spock's  mind then in along  with
McCoy's consciousness.   We've  seen  it before  in  the  "Never  fear
Sargon's here"  episode, where  Spock  spent half  the show  in  Nurse
Chapel's mind.

    Proof:
       "He's not really dead Jim, not as long as we remember him."
    That is McCoy's last line in the movie, and I don't think it was
    an accident.  Reactions??
                                --Dave
                                (miller@yale)

------------------------------

Date: 28 June 1982 15:18 edt
From: York.Multics at MIT-MULTICS (William M. York)
Subject: "remember" what?

Perhaps it is no accident that Spock chose the doctor to mind meld,
and that McCoy will "remember" something critical about Vulcan
physiology or psychology at the appropriate time in the next movie.

------------------------------

Date: 28 June 1982 14:21-EDT
From: Daniel F. Chernikoff <DFC at MIT-MC>
Subject: Star Trek II: Why they needed a lifeless planet for the
Subject: genesis device

I got the impression, from conversations among the Genesis scientists
and the Star-Fleet officers that were hunting out the planet (Checkov
et al) that since this was the first planet-scale test of the Genesis
device, they wanted to use a completely lifeless planet to PROVE that
it would create life out of lifeless matter.  Not so much that it
wouldn't work with a life-full planet, or that it was immoral -- it
would just throw the results of the experiment into doubt.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1982 2030-PDT
From: Bill <YEAGER at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: ST: TWOK

The other interesting point concerning the newly created planet is
that Khan's molecules were floating around when it was formed. What
effect will this have on the newly created life forms(including
Spock's)?

Also, from all that we've read here (the recent interview with Nimoy
and Shatner) and from what I've read elsewhere, Spock will indeed be
back for STIII, even if he has to wait until "1994!"

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 24-Jun-1982
From: AL LEHOTSKY AT METOO
Reply-to: "AL LEHOTSKY AT METOO c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Star Trek II

If you haven't seen ST2 - tWoK yet, drop whatever you're doing and go
see it!

While it does have a few minor flaws (both in technology and in
military matters), it's a solid movie with an engrossing plot.

--- (Spoiler Warning??) ---

On the "flaws", can anyone think of a justification as to why the
ships are so close when they are firing on one another?  In the first
battle-scene, I was half-expecting Khan and a boarding party to come
"swarming over the gunwales, cutlasses in hand....".


Also, how did Chekhov manage to survive the "earwigs"?  Khan said that
some large number of his group (20?) had been killed by the larvae.
But Chekhov managed to survive.  I suppose you could chalk it up to
superior medical treatment by McCoy....

------------------------------

Date: Mon Jun 28 23:41:40 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: Star Trek - Spoiler

On the radiation suit idea:

        The Enterprise escapes the effect with a fraction of a second
to spare - they would have died if he had put on a suit.  Spock did
the only logical thing - either he would die with everybody or he
would die alone.

In my opinion, that planet must be the one that was outside the
nebulosity.  Formation of a sun and planet is just too much.  After
all, if you trust the sfx, the genesis effect spread almost as fast as
a star ship at warp speed, and latched on to the first planet it could
find.

Complete transfer of all of Spock's mind in 1/3 of a second into
McCoy?  Are you kidding???
  Brad

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1982 11:59 EDT
From: Stevenson.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V5 #71

        "When Spock went into the radiation chamber, why didn't
        he wear a protective suit? ... why weren't there waldoes
        available?" -- Paul Karger at RDVAX

Well, I assume Spock didn't have time to properly put on and seal a
radiation suit in the <4 minutes he had to fix the warp drive.  I do
agree, though, that by the 23rd century (even with some setbacks from
the wars of the late 20th and early 21st centuries) there should have
been waldoes capable of doing such work.  (In the paperback, it's said
that there was a robot to do repairs, but it had already been put out
of action by radiation damage or something.  (What? no backup
robot?!?!))
------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1982 20:01 PDT
From: SJohnson.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Spoiler Warning - ST:TWoK (SF-Lovers #71 & #72)

PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX asked,

"When Spock went into the radiation chamber, why didn't he wear a
protective suit?  Such suits have existed since the 1940's, and surely
would have been made better by the 23rd century.  Why wasn't such a
suit kept for emergency purposes.  Alternately, why weren't there
waldoes available?  Again - 1940's technology."

You seem to be assuming that the radiation was NUCLEAR. Perhaps this
new radiation can only be cut off by a material which can not be made
flexible enough for a garment. As for waldoes, there just wasn't
enough time.


From ihuxi!otto (George Otto) at Berkeley,

"In the original TV episode of Star Trek (or was it in the pilot that
was turned into the two-episode show: Menagerie) the science officer
was a woman identified as "Number One."  Audience reaction to this
character was not positive."

It was indeed the first ST pilot (there were two), which was shown to
network officials. THEY decided that the public would not accept
Number One, not a TV audience. In fact, they also thought that the
Spock character was a bad idea, until viewers made it clear that he
was one of the show's major attractions. You speak of decisions made
by "Roddenberry & Company". How much involvement did Roddenberry have
in this movie ?  I thought I heard sometime back that he had sold his
rights to ST over to Paramount (I know, I know, his name is on the
credits. But "Executive Consultant" (or whatever) sounds like some
legal technicality to me, not an active contribution).

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 1982 0142-EDT
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-20C>
Subject: Star Trek-spoiler

        Why do they show the crew readying a coffin BEFORE the battle?
Or is that thing I saw something else?

                                        Gene Hastings

[ What they were readying before the battle was a photon torpedo.
  Spock's body was placed in the casing of a torpedo for launching
  into space.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #2
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 9:24PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #2
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 2 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:
                        SF Fandom - Chicon IV,
            SF Books - The Deceivers & The Eureka Years &
       Where Time Winds Blow & The Jade Enchantress & Ellison &
      The Number of the Beast & "All the Lies That Are My Life",
               SF Topics - SF Ghetto & Politics in SF,
                    Random Topics - Movie ratings
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 82 20:54:22 EDT  (Mon)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: "The Deceivers"

"The Deceivers", by Alfred Bester, bills itself as "the true successor
to THE STARS MY DESTINATION."  It isn't; rather, it's the true prequel
to Thanksgiving, in that it's a real turkey.

The writing style is very free-flowing, the characters are improbable,
and the plot even more so.  It's filled with blatant and offensive
racial and ethnic stereotypes, and the "science" makes no sense at
all.  But the part likely to offend everyone on this list is a
computer-query sequence.

Think about it -- it's the 27th century, the computers are
semi-sentient and talk among themselves.  So, when the hero wants to
ask his computer (via an EEG-like link) where his true love is, he
says "'Program Problem APB Demi Jeroux Print Absolute Address.'...  He
know that 'an absolute address' in computer circles demanded the exact
storage location where the referenced operand is to be found, and no
weaseling before, behind, between, above, below and out of the
imperative."  Worse than that, the program is in BASIC!  (A partial
listing is included....)

Well, I'm not going to object to Bester buying himself a micro.  Nor
do I object to it influencing his stories.  But he should try to do a
better job of it.

Never mind -- the book isn't worth even this much space in the Digest;
I'm only bothering in the hope of sparing other fans of "The Stars My
Destination" and "The Demolished Man" from wading through this.

                --Steve Bellovin
                University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 82 2:20-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: sf column

                           SCIENCE FICTION
                          By Roland J. Green
           (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    Opinions differ about how old science fiction is. Some aggressive
types would enroll Homer and Plato among the founding fathers. Others
prefer Mary Shelley (''Frankenstein'') or Hugo Gernsback (Amazing
Stories magazine). Few deny that SF has a considerable history. ''The
Eureka Years,'' edited by Annette McComas (Bantam paperback, $3.50),
is a valuable contribution to recording that history.
    In 1949 the late J. Francis McComas and Anthony Boucher founded
the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction in Eureka, Calif. During
the first five years until McComas' retirement in 1954, F&SF was
probably the most innovative magazine in the field. It discovered or
developed at least a baker's dozen of new writers, including Richard
Matheson, the late Philip K. Dick, Zenna Henderson, Poul Anderson and
Gordon Dickson, as well as extensively publishing already established
writers such as L. Sprague de Camp, Theodore Sturgeon and Ray
Bradbury.
    The book itself is an assortment of stories, articles,
correspondence, and anecdotes by the editor, McComas' widow. Many of
the stories are already well-known (what respectable SF collection
does not have Sturgeon's ''The Hurkle is a Happy Beast''?) or
significant mostly for what the authors later became. On the other
hand, there is also a virtually unknown Andre Norton story and Manly
Wade Wellman's first John the Minstrel story, among other treasures.
    In fact, describing this book rapidly becomes a repetition of
''among other treasures'' because it is so filled with them. There are
lists of each year's prominent books, in which novels this reviewer
grew up on are hailed as new breakthroughs; one notes that a whole
year in the early 1950s might produce less published SF than a couple
of months in any year since 1978! There are familiar complaints about
how poor distribution is afflicting sales. There is a section of
rejection letters any would-be SF writer or teacher of SF writing
ought to memorize religiously.
    This book, in short, records a notable achievement as well as an
act of faith in the future of American SF when that future was by no
means assured. The days when such acts were laying the foundations of
SF are rapidly slipping out of living memory; they badly need
recording in more books like this one.
    It would be an oversimplification to call Robert Holdstock's
''Where Time Winds Blow'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.95 paperback) a
''typical British SF novel.'' However, the emphasis on
characterization, the literate savoring of language, and the somewhat
uncertain pacing all seem to be found more often in SF novels that
start their career on the far side of the Atlantic.
    Holdstock, nonetheless, has made a good book of his two interwoven
stories. One story tells the search for the secret of the Time Winds,
fierce cyclonic storms that sweep across a far-distant planet's
surface and snatch cities, machines, and researchers across time. The
other story is the complex relationship of three of these researchers,
two men and a woman. They emerge both as believable in terms of their
own society and understandable by the book's 20th century readers.
    In E. Hoffman Price's graceful fantasy ''The Jade Enchantress''
(Del ReyBallantine, $2.75 paperback), a minor Chinese goddess begins
the story by seeking a mortal lover, a shrewd young farmer. Price
tells what follows with wit, sympathy for all his characters, a
profound knowledge of T'ang Dynasty China that never slows the brisk
pacing, and a delightful savoring of Chinese philosophy, sexual mores,
magic and cuisine. Along with Price's ''The Devil Wives of Li Fong''
(also a Ballantine paperback), this book recalls the Judge Dee
mysteries of Robert Van Gulik - an extraordinarily effective use of
another time and culture to bring a whole new dimension to an existing
genre.
    This year Chicago plays host to the annual World Science Fiction
Convention Sept. 2-6 at the Hyatt Regency Chicago. Guests of honor are
Australian writer A. Bertram Chandler, American artist Frank Kelly
Freas, and longtime SF fan Lee Hoffman. Memberships are $50 through
July 15; thereafter $75 at the door. Write Chicon IV, Box A3120,
Chicago, Ill. 60690.

------------------------------

Date: Wed 30-Jun-1982 10:40-EDT
From: Bill Russell <RUSSELL at NYU>
Subject: The Number of the Beast

I just heard an ad on the radio (WNEW-FM 102.7) for this book by
Heinlein.  It was described as a "new" best-selling mass market
paperback, and as "wicked and wonderfull"!  This is the first time
that I can remember that a SF book has been advertised on radio.  Has
anyone else heard this ad?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1982 19:04:47 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ralph Muha <muha at BBNC60>
Subject: Ellison's Accident

In one of his recent stories, "All The Lies That Are My Life",
Ellison tells the tale of an SF author who leaves a videotape will.
In the story, the author is killed in an automobile accident on an LA
freeway...

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1982 03:54:19-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!jejones at Berkeley
Subject: Anthony Villiers

Hmm...I thought that Anthony Villiers was a character (murder victim?)
in the Wendell Urth story "The Dying Night", in *Asimov's Mysteries*.

                                James Jones
                                duke!uok!jejones
                                (formerly ihuxl!jej)
[ This message is in reference to the contribution in volume 5,
  issue 63, describing Anthony Villiers as a character in a series
  by Alexei Panshin. -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 28 June 1982 14:32 est
From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Fantasy and Science Fiction authors who hate F&SF.

I recall Harlan Ellison making desperate efforts to dissociate himself
from the SF genre in which he had been so successful.  At the time I
thought it a curious and singular abberation.

Recently, however, I ran across a couple of SF authors who have put
themselves into an even more curious (but related) position.  They are
active SF genre authors who seem to think no one (but themselves, I
suppose) writes SF worth reading.

The first of these I read was George Zebrowski's Macrolife.  It's a
well-written book with a theme encompassing all of time and space.  In
the afterword, Zebrowski explains where the ideas for the book came
from and in the course of this explanation quotes from an essay titled
"Science Fiction is Too Conservative", written in 1961 by everybody's
favorite futurist, G. Harry Stine.  The gist of the quotation is that
most of the really innovative speculation is done outside of the SF
genre.  Zebrowsky goes on to affirm this and state that the situation
is even worse "today" than it was in 1961 (adding a gratuitous "I'm
sorry to say").  The strong implication he makes is that his book,
Macrolife, is different from what everybody else is writing in SF in
that it does speculate innovatively.

The second book is titled "The Golden Nagimata", and it's written by
Jessical Amanda Salmonson (I'm not sure of the spelling on the name).
She makes her remarks in an afterword, as well.  Her view is that
writers of Fantasy and Science Fiction don't write stories which are
"rich" and "interesting".  She says that, as she desires to write
stories which are interesting, she doesn't allow other SF authors to
influence her.

The one thing I find really curious in all of this is that I enjoyed
the writings of all three authors.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 82 13:00-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Re:  Fantasy and Science Fiction authors who hate F&SF.

If you've read enough of Harlan's non-fiction/intros/etc and followed
him for awhile, you'll see that it is completely reasonable for him to
hate being pigeon-holed.  In fact, it is his trademark to complain
about such things.  Mainstream authors have done similar things.
Vladimir Nabokov was ruthlessly anti-critic.  He urged that only his
readers should try to interpret his work.

Harlan is a versatile author, capable of producing excellent work in
fantasy, SF, horror, mainstream, and mixings of the genres.  I don't
see a reason why his books should always appear in the SF section of
the bookstore.

------------------------------

Date: 28 June 1982 16:32 est
From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Re:  Fantasy and Science Fiction authors who hate F&SF.

I guess I failed to make the major thrust of my note clear.  I'm not
so interested in yet another go around of justifications for Ellison's
position.  The more extreme (and arrogant) situation which Zebrowsky
and Salmonson place themselves in is what I find fascinating.  In
fact, I neglected to state the question which all of this was a
lead-up to:  What other authors have stated similar positions?

Certainly, Ellison's position is not particularly similar in that I
don't re-call him stating that he was the only (or even one of the
very few) who wrote "good" SF.  It \has/ struck me as odd that he,
alone out of a large number of authors, is so strident in his
renunciation of SF-authordom.  Certainly other authors have "suffered"
from being narrowly categorized in SF.  L. Sprague de Camp's
historical fiction must have a much smaller audience than it would if
he weren't known only as an SF author.  Asimov, while quite famous as
an SF author, seems to have done fairly well in both the Mystery and
Science Fact genres, without recourse to bitter soliloquies on current
practices in the publishing industry.  Other, admittedly less potent,
examples of quietly multi-faceted authors come to mind involving
Bradbury, LeGuin, and Wolfe.

It just occurred to me that Vonnegut made some comments about
dissociating himself from SF.  So, for my second question, did K.
Vonnegut make such comments, and if so, what did he say?

        Yours in contentiousness,
                Lindsey Leroy Spratt.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 1982 22:26:14-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: political SF

   Oh goody, another topic to flame on!
   To begin with, I was just as disgusted as APPLE at the item I read
concerning the attempt of a group to produce [progressive SF]. It is
much too broad to say that politics makes bad fiction; let's try
modifying that to read "codified politics makes bad fiction". I can't
answer for all of the writers nominated by Minow, but I would observe
that in all of their works that I am familiar with the quality is
related to the subordination of [politics] to plot. Shaw's best
material, for instance, reflects individual human concerns; the pieces
that try to follow any political \doctrine/ are frequently awkward and
dull. (Similarly, Sturgeon claims not to have originated the remark
that Wells sold his birthright for a pot of message.) This is true
even of Brunner; when he tries to get a message across, he gets
boring.
   The thing that particularly appalled me about this group (Red
Shift, I think they called themselves---what an obviously one-sided
name) is that their public utterances, as quoted, show a severe
ignorance of much of SF. To consider Heinlein, Asimov, and Doc Smith
as representative of the whole field (and to call Asimov a
militarist!) is show the shallowness of one's knowledge.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 1982 1404-EDT
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: R-13

How do you tell the difference between a 12- and a 13-year-old?  Few
of them, except military dependents, have any form of identification.
R isn't enforced very well either, but R-13 would be unenforceable
unless the movie industry wanted to issue ID cards.

The whole system is voluntary, anyway.  R seems to vary between "under
16 and under 18" not allowed from place to place, anyway.  Does anyone
know if any towns/states have ordinances/laws requiring theatres to
enforce the R-limit?


[ This message is in reference to the contribution in volume 5,
  issue 63, on the controversy surrounding the rating of the movie
  Poltergeist -- Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #3
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, July 3, 1982 12:17AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #3
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 3 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:
                       SF Movies - Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 1982 2216-EDT
From: Steven H. Gutfreund <SHG at MIT-OZ>
Subject: Blade Runner


For a while this summer I was worried that Hollywood was redefining
what was good SF. People were saying that Star Wars, Star Drek, and ET
was good SF, and not juvenile sentimentalism targeted for the amassed
TV escapeees. I was afraid that "real" SF could never be a movie.

Blade Runner is a superb execution of a Phil K. Dick story. I was
utterly amazed to see the instatiation of a society/world that
previously only haunted the further corners of my SF collection.
Perhaps I don't read enough Dick, but I felt that here was a real
"Brunneresqe" society, and a "serious" SF plot, not a space-opera.

The special effects were stunning. I was only too glad that turnbull
turned them down as the film progressed or I would have been unable to
concentrate on the plot.

While my enthusiasm for this film (I stick it up there with the better
Kurosowa's I have seen - thought not as deep) may be a reflection on
my SF tastes. I heartily recommend it to all who have been in search
of serious SF on the screen.

Queries:
What is it about the Baader-Meinhoff that is so spooky? Is it
something about German terrorists that make them more evil than Sauron
himself?

What were the opening scene explosions in the city supposed to
signify?  or were they explosions?

What is the status of Earth vis-a-vie the colonies in this film? is it
only replicants that inhabit the stars? Is earth a backwaters home for
human types? Who is fighting out around orion?

                        - Steven Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1982 15:29:39-PDT
From: decvax!minow at Berkeley
Subject:  Blade Runner -- mini review, no spoiler

Nano review:  wierd.

Micro review: very wierd.

Review:  The file is well worth seeing for its sense of demented
atmosphere.  It gave the viewer the disquieting feeling of having been
dropped into a foreign country; somewhat like Bergman's "Silence."
But although it fit well with the overall atmosphere, I was annoyed by
the obscenly detailed violence and sexless sexism as well as by the
unmotivated ending [I said, no spoiler].

In all, see the film for the atmosphere (someone described it as Los
Angeles after all the rich people left), for the satiric references to
Star Wars, and for the feeling of madness; but don't expect an
"ordinary" SF movie or a happy evening.

Martin Minow
decvax!minow @ Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 82 20:56-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Review: Blade Runner

                             BLADE RUNNER
                         By Richard Freedman
                        Newhouse News Service

    (UNDATED) According to ''Blade Runner,'' Los Angeles 40 years in
the future will be even more depressing than it is now.
    True, the people will have neon-handled umbrellas so they don't
crash into each other on the overcrowded streets. But they'll need
them, because the rain never stops.
    Worse, there are rogue ''replicants'' - large, synthetic human
beings created by a genetic engineering company to do the dirty work
of the cosmos. They look just the way you and I would look if we were
movie actors, but they're immensely powerful and emotionally immature.
    Four of them have escaped when the film begins, so Blade Runner
Deckard (Harrison Ford in his first movie role since ''Raiders of the
Lost Ark'') is assigned to track them down and eliminate them.
    A blade runner, it seems, is not an ice-skating champion but a
detective who knows a replicant when he sees one, and can terminate
him - more usually her - with extreme prejudice.
    Deckard is coaxed out of retirement to deal with this quartet of
reclusant replicants, of whom the meanest is Batty (Rutger Hauer) and
the sexiest is Rachael (Sean Young).
    Batty is extra mean because he resents the fact that replicants
are programmed to have a four-year lifespan and his time is nearly up.
Rachael is so sexy that Deckard can't believe she's a full-fledged
replicant.
    But meanwhile he must stalk his prey down the mean streets of a
modernistic city with towering skyscrapers but apparently no air
conditioning, and in which it is alway either foggy or pouring.
    ''Blade Runner'' tries to do for the futuristic private eye
picture what ''Outland'' did for the futuristic Western. Sean Young
wears the sort of puffy-shouldered jackets affected by the late Joan
Crawford, with a hairstyle to match, while Harrison Ford imitates the
Sam Spade-Philip Marlowe shamus of the 1940s film noir, right down to
the laconic voiceover narration and the gunning-down of dubious
females.
    Unfortunately, Ford lacks the acting authority Sean Connery
brought to his space age cowboy hero in ''Outland,'' making it very
difficult to care if he gets the replicants before they get him.
    So his big love scene with Rachael, for instance, makes them both
look like robots. If it weren't for the haunting, bluesy score of
Vangelis (whose music for ''Chariots of Fire'' won a deserved Oscar),
this would be the least stimulating moment of passion ever to appear
in an R-rated movie.
    And for long stretches at a time, both are forgotten in favor of
an equally baffling subplot involving Sebastian (William Sanderson), a
hayseed genius at genetic engineering, and Pris (Daryl Hannah), a
blonde waif with evil designs on him and his midget factory.
    ''Blade Runner'' was directed by Ridley Scott, who also directed
''Alien.'' But the only thing the two pictures have in common is a
fascination with electronic gadgetry. The real hero here is production
designer Lawrence G. Paull, who has given this essentially empty film
a far snazzier look than it deserves.

    ''BLADE RUNNER.'' A gloomily futuristic tough-guy detective flick
with Harrison Ford as the iron-jawed shamus in charge of ridding Los
Angeles of some rogue ''replicants,'' or clone-like robots. A robot
could have directed as well. Rated R. Two stars.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 82 16:16-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Review: Bladerunner

                             BLADE RUNNER
                           By Janet Maslin
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    NEW YORK - The view of the future offered by Ridley Scott's
muddled yet fascinating ''Blade Runner'' is as intricately detailed as
anything a science-fiction film has yet envisioned. The year is 2019,
the place Los Angeles, the landscape garish but bleak. The city is a
canyon bounded by industrial towers, some of which belch fire.
Advertising billboards, which are everywhere, now feature lifelike
electronic people who are the size of giants. The police cruise both
horizontally and vertically on their patrol routes, but there is
seldom anyone to arrest because the place is much emptier than it used
to be. In an age of space travel, anyone with the wherewithal has
presumably gone away. Only the dregs remain.
    ''Blade Runner'' begins with a stunning shot of this futuristic
city, accompanied by the rumbling of Vangelis's eerie, highly
effective score. It proceeds to tell the story of Rick Deckard and his
battle with the replicants, a story based on Philip K. Dick's novel
''Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?'' In brief: replicants are
manmade creatures that possess all human attributes except feelings.
They have been built to serve as slaves in Earth colonies that are Off
World, i.e. elsewhere. Whenever the replicants rebel, the job of
eliminating them is given to a special, skilled hunter.  This expert
is called a blade runner.
    Rick Deckard is the best of the blade runners, now retired. He is
as hard-boiled as any film noir detective, with much the same world
view. But when he is told, at the beginning of ''Blade Runner,'' that
an especially dangerous group of replicants is on the loose, and is
offered the job of hunting them, he can't say no. Even in the murkiest
reaches of science-fiction lore, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta
do.
    ''Blade Runner'' follows Deckard's love affair with a beautiful
replicant named Rachael, who is special assistant to the high-level
industrialist who created her. It also follows Deckard's tracking down
of the runaways, most notably their white-haired, demonic-looking
leader, Batty (Rutger Hauer). These events involve quite a bit of
plot, but they're nothing in the movie's excessively busy overall
scheme. ''Blade Runner'' is crammed to the gills with much more
information than it can hold.
    Science-fiction aficionados may find ''Blade Runner'' a
wonderfully meticulous movie and marvel at the comprehensiveness of
its vision.  Even those without a taste for gadgetry cannot fail to
appreciate the degree of effort that has gone into constructing a film
this ambitious and idiosyncratic. The special effects are by Douglas
Trumbull, Richard Yuricich and David Dryer, and they are superb. So is
Laurence G. Paull's production design. The ''Blade Runner'' is a film
that special effects could have easily run away with, and run away
with it they have.
    It's also a mess, at least as far as its narrative is concerned.
Almost nothing is explained coherently, and the plot has great lapses,
from the changeable nature of one key character to the frequent
disappearances of another. The story lurches along awkwardly, helped
not at all by some ponderous stabs at developing Deckard's character.
As an old-fashioned detective cruising his way through the space age,
Deckard is both tedious and outre.
    At several points in the story, Deckard is called on to wonder
whether Rachael has feelings. This seems peculiar, because the icy,
poised Rachael, played by Sean Young as a 40's heroine with space-age
trimmings, seems a lot more expressive than Deckard, who is played by
Harrison Ford. Ford is, for a movie this darkly fanciful, rather a
colorless hero, fading too easily into the bleak background. And he is
often upstaged by Rutger Hauer, who in this film and in ''Night
Hawks'' appears to be specializing in fiendish roles. He is properly
cold-blooded here, but there is something almost humorous behind his
nastiness. In any case, he is by far the most animated performer in a
film intentionally populated by automatons.
    Scott, who made his mark in ''Alien'' by showing a creature
bursting forth from the body of one of its victims, tries hard to hit
the same note here. One scene takes place in an eyeball factory. Two
others show Deckard in vicious, sadistic fights with women. One of
these fights features strange calisthenics and unearthly shrieks.
    The end of the film is both a bloodbath and a sentimental
shambles.  Scott can't have it both ways, any more than he can
successfully overdecorate a film that lacks strong characters or a
strong story.  That hasn't stopped him from trying, even if perhaps it
should have.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #4
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, July 3, 1982 1:53AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #4
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 4 Jul 1982        Volume 6 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Stand on Zanzibar & Puppet Masters &
          Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep & Dream Park &
           Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan & Rite of Passage &
                   Software & The World of Null-A,
             SF Movies - Blade Runner & Time After Time &
                   Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
                  Random Topics - Violence in Movies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1982  1:19:47 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: book reviews

I've had a chance to read a fair bit of science fiction these past few
weeks, so I thought I'd submit some mini-reviews of some of what I've
read in the hope that it might inspire others to do the same (I always
like to see pointers to stuff which might interest me), or even spark
some discussion.  Ratings are on a scale of four stars.

Brunner -- Stand on Zanzibar ****

I tried to read this about three time through college, and I never got
more than about fifty pages into it before quitting.  This book starts
up rather slowly, and unless you have a large block of vacant time you
shouldn't begin.  This is one LONG book.  It repays the startup
investment with much interest, however, so I would heartily recommand
it.  Basically an overpopulation book, but that is an understatement
of gross proportions.  Brunner really does paint a vivid picture of
his world through his somewhat unconventional style.  There is an
absolutely wonderful character named Chad C.  Mulligan, a social
anthropologist, who writes marvelous tirades on the stupidity of the
human race.  The book is worth it just for Mulligan's writings, but
the plot of the main story line is also very good.

Dick -- Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep ***

This one has the cover BLADE RUNNER.  This is a very odd book, and if
the movie is really representative of the book, I'll be very
surprised.  This edition has a caveat at the beginning stating that
the book only inspired the movie, so I'd expect the movie to take
DADoES only at a superficial level and leave all the hard questions
posed in the book out.  The plot is the adventures of a bounty hunter
out to get illegal androids.  One of the important questions is
whether these androids deserve to live.  I predict that the movie will
take the first and leave the second.  Worth reading.

Heinlein -- Puppet Masters ***

I read this when I saw it mentioned in all the FRIDAY reviews on SFL.
I enjoyed it, but I found (as I often do with Heinlein) that the
anti-communist propaganda was a little overbearing (and yes, I do know
that it is not a recent book).  Plot deals with parasitic ETs which
are trying to take over the Earth by taking over people's bodies.

McIntyre -- Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan **

Much discussion of this has preceded me.  I liked it, but I can't get
very excited about novelizations of movies.  Probably would have
gotten three stars if not for this.

Niven/Barnes -- Dream Park ***

This is a good one for those of us who aren't D&Ders.  Gives some
feeling for what D&D might be all about (I can't say for sure since
I've never played).  A decent mystery, too.  But I do miss the heyday
of Known Space (there is at least on passing reference to KS in DP).

Panshin -- Rite of Passage ***

Another oldie but goodie.  I have mixed feeling about this one.  On
the one hand, I did like it a lot, but on the other I felt that it was
somewhat "thin" and unchallenging.  Is this a juvenile do you suppose?

Rucker -- Software **

"preserve your software ...  all the rest is meat!" I like that.  A
decent adventure story about robot intelligence and human
intelligence.  Two stars because I felt a little dissatisfied with the
ending, and not enough feeling of what the world is like.  I've seen
that Rucker has a non-fiction book out along the lines of Godel,
Escher, Bach (which is my nominee for book of the decade).  Ruckers is
called something like <Infinity and the Mind>.  Anyone can tell me
about it?

Van Vogt -- The World of Null-A **

I read the revised edition with special preface by the author
extolling the virtues of the philosophy of General Semantics (also
known as Null-A).  Reading the book did not give me any real idea what
Null-A is all about.  A friend of mine explained to me that Null-A is
a plot device used by Van Vogt to motivate his characters.  This is
about the same conclusion I had come to.  I tend to be suspicious when
an author has to tell you that his book will introduce you to concepts
that are the very basis of sanity, etc., etc.  I might have enjoyed
this more without the preface.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1982 1417-CDT
From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Bladerunner Comments (Not a Spoiler)

I saw Bladerunner the other night. I thought it was fairly good but I
did not enjoy it as much as STTWOK or ET. Somehow the transition
between scenes was poor. I also found it a little too violent and
gory. It was fairly suspenseful in parts and the influence of Ridley
Scott was evident: everything was dark, gloomy, seedy, and decrepit
just as in Alien. The special effects showing the future Los Angeles
were very impressive in my estimation.  (With all of the commercialism
and blaring advertisements the setting reminds me a little of Pohl and
Kornbluth's Space Merchants.)  However, the movie was set in 2019
which strikes me as a little soon for having interstellar travel as
implied by the references to "Offworld".

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 82 12:18-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: violence in movies

                             BLADE RUNNER
                           By Glenn Collins
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    NEW YORK - The film is called ''Blade Runner,'' a detective story
set in the year 2019, and it has won praise for its lavish and
detailed depiction of the Los Angeles of the future. The movie also
contains scenes of grisly sadism that are perhaps unequalled in recent
popular entertainment:
    -Roy Batty, a ''replicant,'' or artificial human, slowly crushes
the skull of his human creator, to the accompaniment of Dolby sound
effects.
    -The detective character played by Harrison Ford shoots a
''replicant'' woman in the back several times. She crashes through
five large windows, and the audience is treated to clinical views of
her bloody wounds and her corpse's staring eyes.
    -Batty breaks two fingers of the character played by Ford.
    -The finale of the film depicts the terrorizing of one or another
protagonist, including the shooting of a ''replicant'' woman in the
torso. We see her violently writhing and dying, and the film then cuts
back again and again to the sight of her bloody corpse. Then Batty is
shown putting his finger in the wound and licking her blood.
    Although the debate about violence in films and on television has
continued for years, new concern has arisen from the release last
month of the federal government's update of the 1972 surgeon general's
report on the adverse effects of televised violence on the young, and
from the attention given in recent weeks to the trial of John W.
Hinckley Jr., whom prosecutors charged modeled his behavior on the
film ''Taxi Driver.''
    ''Blade Runner'' contains many rough-'em-up scenes that might be
expected in any classic private-eye vehicle. But the vivid depiction
of gore, and the plot emphasis on aggressive behavior, seems to raise
to a new level a trend evident in many recent mass-audience
science-fiction or fantasy movies that attract large youthful
followings.
    These films are not billed as horror movies or shock epics like
''Texas Chainsaw Massacre,'' in which bloody scenes are often expected
by the audiences attracted to them. Many of these movies were seen by
children, brought to theaters by their parents despite a PG rating.
''Blade Runner'' is rated R, but is expected to draw a youthful
following because of its science-fiction theme, the presence of
Harrison Ford, its score by Vangelis, who composed the ''Chariots of
Fire'' theme, and the direction by Ridley Scott, whose last effort was
the popular ''Alien.''
    Several film makers, when asked about gratuitous violence,
deplored it while trying to rationalize the gore in their own films.
Psychologists interviewed emphasized the harmful effects of vividly
depicted aggression.
    ''Gratuitous bloodshed and violence is dangerous.'' said Scott.
''I think it does inspire violence. Children must be affected by it .
It's inevitable.''
    Scott agreed that moviemakers are currently obliged to show bloody
scenes. ''I think the average thriller these days enters a gratuitous
area, for increasing box office sales,'' he said. Commenting about
excessive violence, he said: ''That kind of thing, I think it
denigrates the whole industry.''
    How, then, did he defend the bloodiness of ''Blade Runner''?
''Well I don't think the film is gratuitous in terms of being a
detective story,'' he said. ''If you have that kind of story, violence
is going to occur.''
    But why did the film go in a such a gory direction? Other
detective films have found alernative ways to suggest violence. ''It
was to show the power of the replicants,'' he said. ''The violence
involved in each instance was to show how hard it was to stop them.''
    Scott expressed dismay that his film might be viewed as
excessively violent. ''We kept it restricted,'' he said. ''This was
the cut version. The demonstration of violence in the scenes was cut
back.''
    What about the sadistic breaking of fingers? ''Oh,'' he answered,
''the breaking of the fingers - we went wide on that one. People think
you are seeing these things, but all you really hear is the sound of
the fingers breaking.''
    Why was it necessary to keep returning to the bloody torso of the
murdered replicant woman, and Batty tasting her blood? ''But he has
lost his mate,'' responded Scott. ''The blood is a trigger point for
him. He touches the blood and uses the blood as a warrior might use
war paint. The Indians used to do that, you know.''
    Nicholas Meyer, who directed ''Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,''
and the 1979 film ''Time After Time,'' agrees that many movies are too
gory. ''Lots of movies are gratuitously violent,'' he said.  ''They
pander to audiences - certainly, it's a form of pornography.''
    Why, then, did he include the scene in the new ''Star Trek'' in
which creatures crawl bloodily out of a crewman's ear? ''It wasn't as
violent as it could have been,'' he said. ''It was a moment of going
'boo.'''
    Wouldn't the point have been made in a less gory way only a few
years ago? ''I can't answer that question,'' he said. ''I have no
explanation for the blood. More would have been too much, and less
wouldn't have been enough. We got off the blood pretty quick.''
    Was he concerned that children would be disturbed by the scorpion
scene, or by the sight of the bloody corpses in the space station?
''It's a PG movie,'' he said. ''I never thought that either 'Star
Trek' or 'Time After Time' should be seen by young children.''
    When asked whether he was aware that many children were seeing the
new ''Star Trek,'' he said, ''You can't blame the film maker for the
parents who don't heed the rating system.''
    Indeed, most of the movies in question are rated PG. However, many
parents complain that they do not have the time or the financial
resources to preview all movies seen by their children, and that
peer-group pressure exerts a powerful force on youngsters to see
movies parents may not approve of.
    ''People prefer to blame movies for the discretion that parents
fail to exercise with their own children,'' commented Meyer. ''There
is a rating system, and is it the fault of the film makers that
parents don't honor it?''
    He added: ''Look, blood has been a theatrical staple for hundreds
of years. Read 'Titus Andronicus' - it's far more violent than
anything we've seen on the screen. Talk of violence, what about
'Lear'?''
    ''The people who make movies justify violence by saying that
Shakespeare did it, or that it's somehow socially beneficial,'' said
Dr. Leonard Berkowitz, professor of psychology at the University of
Wisconsin, who has done many studies on violence and aggression.
    Berkowitz said, however, that the adverse effects of the graphic
depiction of violence on audiences is well documented. The recent
report prepared by the National Institute of Mental Health concluded
that there was ''overwhelming'' scientific evidence that ''excessive''
violence on television leads directly to aggression and violent
behavior among children and teen-agers.
    Berkowitz said that the effects of violence on audiences were
threefold. ''First,'' he said, ''it makes audiences in general less
horrified by, and more indifferent to, violence. Secondly, audiences
may learn the lesson that violence is approved behavior. Third, some
can become stimulated by it.''
    Why do film makers choose the gory option? ''It's done because
there is action involved,'' he said, ''and it's done because there are
people who enjoy the sight of violence, and producers are catering to
those tastes to get more people into the theater.''
    Moviemakers, Berkowitz said, ''feel they have to be ever more
extreme to give a charge to audiences.'' He continued: ''As people
become more and more inured to violence, producers feel they have to
supply more and more of it. So, 'Rocky III' is more violent than
'Rocky I.' Only awhile ago, people were deploring the gratuitous
violence in 'Bonnie and Clyde,' and yet one thinks of the film
differently now in comparison to recent movies.''
    Isaac Asimov, the longtime science-fiction author, believes that
the presence of gratuitous violence in recent science-fiction movies,
and in any movie, is a moral issue: ''Seeing these things, we get
inured to violence, and that's not good for our society. A callous
population is a dangerous population.''
    He added: ''The Greek or Shakespearean portrayal of violence was
not for the sake of violence; violence illuminated human motivation.
But now in these violent movies there is no attempt to understand the
causes, consequences and implications of violence. There is no higher
art in these films than seeing a hanging, or an auto da fe.''
    As a science-fiction pioneer, Asimov said he was disturbed that
blood and gore had so frequenly been injected into movies about the
future. ''It's not so much a betrayal, but a trivialization,'' he
said. ''When you're trying to deal with something as important as the
future of humanity,'' he said, ''and you simply use the future as the
background for a freak show animated by a bunch of carnival tricks,
that's a disappointment. I would like to see a movie about serious
people in the future facing the kind of reasonable problems that real
human people must face.''

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #5
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, July 4, 1982 3:33AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #5
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 5 Jul 1982        Volume 6 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:
        SF Movies - The Thing & Star Trek: The Motion Picture,
              Random Topics - Commercials at the movies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 82 09:25:15 EDT
From: dyer at NBS-VMS
Subject: The Thing

THE THING Rated R

Nano-review :
        One of the summer's missable movies.  If you've read the short
story by John W. Campbell, Jr., then you don't need to see THE THING.


Micro-review :
        A research station in Antartica discovers an alien frozen in
ice. When the alien thaws out, the men discover that the alien is
still alive. It also has the peculiar property of being able to
imitate other life-forms down to the cellular level, by eating them.

        Before the crew of the research station discovers this, the
alien has eaten several dogs, and has /become/ several people (No one
knows, of course, just /who/ has been turned into an alien, because
the creature is a perfect mimic.)

        In a series of very explicit gruesome scenes, the aliens are
ferreted out and destroyed.  A way of telling humans from imitations
is developed.  However, the last scene of the movie does not really
seem like an ending -- it is almost as if the shooting crew had run
out of film and decided to stop.  There is no resolution -- will the
earth be invaded by the THING all over again?


        This movie is another example of what can happen when a
producer gets carried away with special effects.  Characterization has
been thrown aside in an attempt to 'gross out' the audience with
slithering, slimy tentacles and violent scenes where (more often than
not) yet another character/monster is destroyed. What's a research
outpost in Antarctica doing with a grenade launcher and a
flamethrower?
        I don't recommend THE THING.  Its a poor imitation of ALIEN,
with few redeeming characteristics.  The film's only shock value is
that of displaying new and bizarre ways in which to kill off
characters.  The ending, which might have been meant to be
thought-provoking, is simply a cheat.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 82 16:35-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: The Thing

                              THE THING
                         By Richard Freedman
                        Newhouse News Service

    (UNDATED) That fellow sitting next to you on the sofa slurping
beer and watching television - is he really your husband and the
father of your children, or a clever clone who looks and acts just
like him?  Does it matter?
    He could be a ''replicant'' from ''Blade Runner,'' or (gasp!) a
Thing from ''The Thing.'' Each of these new movies could be a clone of
the other.
    Although ''Blade Runner'' is set in futuristic Los Angeles and
''The Thing'' in Antarctica last winter, they share common themes and
common problems.
    Both deal with the ultimate paranoid nightmare that we don't
really know who even our nearest and dearest are. And both submerge
the acting talents of their leading men - Harrison Ford in ''Blade
Runner'' and Kurt Russell in ''The Thing'' - beneath a mass of special
effects.
    Come to think of it, Clint Eastwood fares no better in
''Firefox.''  This may be the summer of the computerized matinee idol.
    Furthermore, ''The Thing'' is adapted from the 1938 pulp science
fiction shocker ''Who Goes There?'' by John W. Campbell Jr., which was
made into a 1951 B-movie by Christian Nyby and Howard Hawks called
''The Thing from Another World.'' It also supplied the basic gimmick
for both ''Invasion of the Body Snatchers'' films and ''Alien.''
    Maybe it's time this particular property was given a proper
burial.  What's buried instead in ''The Thing'' is a loathsome mass of
protoplasm that crash-landed in Antarctica 100,000 years ago and has
lain there encased in ice ever since.
    Inadvertently released by some Norwegian scientists, it comes back
to scare a dozen Americans - working for the National Science
Foundation - out of their longjohns.
    The film's opening sequence is brilliant, as we see a
black-and-white husky madly running for its life from a helicopter
pilot determined either to shoot it or blast it with dynamite.
Instead of phoning the ASPCA, the American scientists learn to their
sorrow why this cowering canine must be destroyed.
    The scene is also brilliantly lit, with the sun glaring
mercilessly on the Antarctic ice mass.
    The rest of ''The Thing,'' unfortunately, is so murkily
photographed, either outdoors at night or within the labs and barracks
of the scientists, that it's very difficult to tell one from the
other, except that MacReady (Kurt Russell) seems to be the most
important. At least he's one of two survivors by the end of the film.
    Otherwise, the characters are so characterless they can only be
distinguished by whether they wear beards or not. When they don their
parkas to venture into the 40-below cold, there's no telling them
apart.
    No matter. The whole point of ''The Thing,'' as a German Romantic
philosopher might have put it, is the Thing itself, brainchild of
special-effects genius Rob Bottin.
    Bottin has created some of the most horrific and disgusting makeup
ever to appear on screen for a blob that gets into your blood serum,
replicates all your cells, and then discards the original you as
casually as a tangerine skin.
    This naturally causes some consternation among scientists A.
Wilford Brimley, T.K. Carter, David Clennon, Keith David, Richard
Dysart etc., since they're increasingly unable to tell who is a pal
and who is a Thing in pal's clothing.
    Occasionally the Thing erupts out of the men's bodies, much as the
Alien in ''Alien'' burst out of John Hurt's tummy, scaring the
daylights out of the survivors. As well it might. Seen au naturel, the
Thing looks like a giant octopus with a skin made out of pizza with
pepperoni.
    ''The Thing'' is directed by horror specialist John Carpenter
(''Halloween''; ''Escape from New York''). He seems to have spent less
time and thought creating plausible characters his actors could sink
their teeth into, than creating a monster who sinks its teeth into
them.
    If you're going to see ''The Thing'' - and don't rush - at least
go before dinner.

    ''THE THING.'' A dozen scientists in Antarctica are devoured one
by one by a horrible blob of 100,000-year-old protoplasm, which then
takes on their original characteristics, thus unnerving just about
everybody in the igloo. Terrific special effects, but not much else.
Rated R. Two and a half stars.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 1982 1648-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: The Thing

                              THE THING
                           By Vincent Canby
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    NEW YORK - John Carpenter's ''The Thing'' is a foolish,
depressing, overproduced movie that mixes horror with science fiction
to make something that is fun as neither one thing or the other.
Sometimes it looks as if it aspired to be the quintessential
moron-movie of the 80s - a virtually storyless feature composed of
lots of laboratory-concocted special effects, with the actors used
merely as props to be hacked, slashed, disemboweled and decapitated,
finally to be eaten and then regurgiated as - guess what? - more
laboratory-concocted special effects.
    There may be a metaphor in all this, but I doubt it.
    Carpenter has demonstrated that he can make good, comparatively
plain, old-fashioned scare-movies (''Halloween'') and effective
suspense thrillers (''Escape From New York''), but he seems to lose
his own head when he combines two or more genres, as he did in ''The
Fog'' and does again here.
    For the record, it should be immediately pointed out that this new
film bears only a superficial resemblance to Howard Hawks's 1951
classic ''The Thing,'' though both were inspired by the same source
material, John W. Campbell's story, ''Who Goes There?''
    The setting is a small, self-contained, American scientific base
in Antarctica, and ''the thing'' is a creature from outer space,
frozen for 100,000 years in the south polar icecap and accidently
thawed by some unfortunate Norwegian scientists. One of the film's
major problems is that the creature has no identifiable shape of its
own.  It's simply a mass of bloody protoplasm that, as someone
solemnly explains, ''imitates other forms of life'' and thus, for much
of the movie, walks around looking like ordinary people.
    In this respect, Carpenter's ''The Thing'' seems itself to be
imitating other forms of movies, particularly ''Invasion of the Body
Snatchers.''
    Kurt Russell, Richard Dysart, A. Wilfred Bramley, T. K. Carter,
Peter Maloney, David Clennon and other worthy people appear on the
screen, but there's not a single character to act. All that the
performers are required to do is to react with shock and terror from
time to time. Like all such movies that don't trust themselves to keep
an audience interested by legitimate dramatic means, ''The Thing''
shows us too much of ''the thing'' too soon, so that it has no place
to go. It plods in circles from one mock-horror effect to the next.
    It's entertaining only if one's needs are met by such sights as
those of a head walking around on spiderlike legs; autopsies on dogs
and humans in which the innards explode to take on other, not easily
identifiable forms; hand-severings, immolations, wormlike tentacles
that emerge from the mouth of a severed head or two or more burned
bodies fused together to look like spareribs covered with barbecue
sauce.
    ''The Thing'' is too phony looking to be disgusting. It qualifies
only as instant junk.

------------------------------

Date: 15-Jun-82 10:26:28 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Commercials BEFORE the movies

In Los Angeles, nearly every theater has a Los Angeles Times
commercial before the movie.  The newspaper requires it in exchange
for accepting the theater's advertising.

/Ron

------------------------------

Date: 16 June 1982 0106-PDT (Wednesday)
From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein)
Subject: Commercials during Films & ST:TMP

Hmmm.  It seems to me that years ago, there used to be rather specific
commercials during intermissions for candy, popcorn, and other
goodies.  I'm not too sure that there's anything all that different
about more "conventional" advertising.  However, inserting commercials
into a film which would not otherwise have an intermission should be a
criminal offense.

----

The recent newswire story about ST:TWoK which refers to someone
watching 2001 alot during the writing of ST:TMP caused me to chuckle a
bit.

When I was working for (gasp!) Robert Abel & Associates (the ORIGINAL
effex crew for ST:TMP), the core effex group saw a number of private
screenings of "classic" SF.  I seem to recall watching "Forbidden
Planet" and "The Forbin Project" (classic?) at Paramount, plus "Star
Wars" and "2001" over at Todd-AO.  One of the major people on our
production team was Con Pederson, who was one of the primary effex
people on 2001.  Con even had a collection of the little HAL 9000
stickers that he stuck on some of the local computers.  In any case, I
learned alot about the design behind ST:TMP during those screenings,
particularly from listening to Roddenberry and Wise.  It became clear
that Wise was not really a Trek fan, and Roddenberry was definitely
looking for a rather "grandiose" statement rather than "another Star
Trek episode".

I could go on with a number of amusing anecdotes from that period, but
I guess I'll pass for now ... interested parties can contact me
directly.  I will mention one bizarre point, however.  At one stage of
the production, I was assigned the task of inventing the Klingon
character set for the Klingon ship displays.  Just to show some of the
other staff people what I was talking about sometimes, would you
believe I used the Stanford (SU-AI) "Find-A-Font" catalog as a guide
to the "sorts" of fonts I was talking about?  Strange, but true.

Of course, Abel never finished the project, and I successfully removed
myself from the inner world of Star Trek.  Now, if only I could get
rid of this case of dilithium crystals...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #6
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, July 5, 1982 6:16AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #6
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Jul 1982        Volume 6 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:
              Random Topics - Commercials at the Movies,
          SF TV - Series,  SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH &
               TRON & Firefox,  SF Topics - SF Ghetto,
             Humor - Other Hope & Genderless Video Games,
                 SF Books - The Day After Judgment,
                  Spoiler - The Day After Judgment
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 06/15/82 1311-EDT
From: Joe Baldassini <GNC @ LL>
Subject: SF on TV

   I think the discussion of commercials during movies doesn't belong
on this list, since it is non-specific to SF, and not very interesting
(to me) anyway.  What I'd like to discuss is science fiction on TV,
specifically the lack of a current series in production.  It seems to
me that Laumer's Retief series would be a good candidate for a TV
series (if the rights could be negotiated). Such a series could star
someone like Roger Moore as Retief, and could have Mr. Magnan and a
secretary as regulars, as well as a regular Groaci perhaps (though I
think it would be difficult to portray one of the vile five-eyes).
Guest stars could appear regularly as Ambassador's (Grossblunder,
Pennywhistle, Crodfoller, etc.). There is a wealth of short stories to
draw on for plots, and even a couple of novels to make movies from,
when the series gets cancelled after 79 shows and becomes even more
popular.  The royalties from nose-flutes alone is enough to boggle the
mind, and it's entirely possible that ritual grimacing could sweep the
nation.

Joe Baldassini

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 1040-EDT
From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
Reply-to: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: A New Animated Film  --  "The Secret of NIMH"

Following is my synopsis of a batch of promotional material I received
from the local United Artists people.  There was also a video tape of
clips from the film which I have shown to a number of people.

In general, the film looks promising.  The art work (though the video
tape doesn't to do it justice) is impressive.

I haven't seen anything on this new movie in the digest (though I've
missed the last couple issues due to machine/net problems).

        -----           -----           -----           -----

"The Secret of NIMH," an animated film, is based on Don Bluth's
adaptation of Robert C. O'Brien's Newbury Award winning book "Mrs.
Frisby and the Rats of NIMH."  The story line centers around the
efforts of a widowed field mouse (Mrs. Brisby) to delay the impending
plowing of the field where she and her children live until after her
son recovers from pneumonia.  Her efforts eventually bring her to a
group of super (intelligent ?) rats.  (There may be no connection, but
in the mundane world, N.I.M.H stands for the National Institute of
Mental Health!)

The film's creators, Dom Bluth, Gary Goldman, and John Pomeroy all
left Walt Disney Studios in 1979 to start their own animation studio.
Their first release was "Banjo, the Woodplie Cat," a 30 minute TV
special that was shown on ABC earlier this year.

In "The Secret of NIMH," Bluth has gone back to the old Classical
Animation that Disney used in "Snow White."  He uses up to 96 drawings
in each cel, more than 1000 backgrounds, electronically operated
multiplane cameras, and multiple passes of the same film through the
camera.  The film took 2 1/2 years to complete.  This is not Saturday
morning cartoon animation.  Likewise it is not computer animation.
Over a million-and-a-half drawings were done to complete this 6800
foot film.

Voices of the characters in "The Secret of NIMH" include such notables
as Dom de Luise, Elizabeth Hartman, Peter Strauss, Derek Jacoby and
John Carradine.

Jerry Goldsmith composed and conducts the score.  Lyrics were supplied
by Paul Williams.

"The Secret of NIMH" will release on July 16th by MGM/United Artists.

------------------------------

Date: 1-Jul-82 17:09-PDT
From: DAUL at OFFICE
Subject: Star Wars (the other hope)

Maybe the "other hope" is Steven Speilberg!

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1982 1257-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  from III via Rand  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: TRON numerology

Just to add fuel to the fire over the alledged origin of TRON's name
(supposedly from the PDP10 instruction "Test Right Ones and skip if
Not all masked bits equaled 0", which is octal opcode 666), I thought
I should point out another interesting number. Like all production
companies, Disney assigns unique sequence numbers to each of their
productions. TRON is Disney production number 222.

And of course 666/222 is 3 which (like all integers under 100) has
many well known numerological interpretations ...

Also, speaking of numbers: 800-622-TRON (800-622-8766). This is your
big chance to speak to the Evil MCP Himself. Call this number and have
a chat with the Big Guy - call him a Bit Brain, tell him to Rezz up,
tell him that Free Programs everywhere will not submit to his evil
rule, make him explain the origin of the name "TRON". (This number
will be active for about 10 days.)

"OK you programs, look operative!"
-c

------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1982 20:14 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Firefox stole the trench from Star Wars...

 ...and Star Wars stole it from The Bridges at Toko-Ri.  The title to
the idea is about as clear as that to the Maltese Falcon.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 1054-PDT
From: Dave Dyer       <DDYER at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Vonnegut & SF


 Vonnegut has indeed made statements that dissociate him from the SF,
which you can read in his essay collection "Wompeters, Foma and
Granfalloons".  If memory serves, he says that he doesn't like being
in the science fictions genre because it is frequently mistaken for a
urinal.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 12:37:22-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: authors hating SF

   Ellison's first problem is that he began as a particularly bratty
fan and has for some time been trying to put that part of his life
behind him by excoriating fans and affecting to despise anything they
like. Certainly he has succeeded [outside the field], but most of his
prose work is at least as alien to normal literature as Bradbury. You
could call it fantasy, but that would push it even further out in the
margin.
   The proper labels for Jessica Amanda Salmonson can't be included in
this digest, but I will say for publication that she has repeatedly
shown herself to be a bad-tempered, self-righteous,
homosexually-biased, prig. (Note that this isn't an attack on
homosexuality, but an observation that her support of it bears a
striking resemblance to the Moral Majority's support of
heterosexuality.) She talks about refusing to let SF authors inspire
her because of their narrowness; she sings a very different tune as an
anthologist.
   Zebrowski I'm not so familiar with, but I notice you don't mention
Barry Malzberg, who makes similar attacks on SF. Stine's comments are
questionable at best; like a lot of hard-headed engineers he gets
really flaky outside his field. (I would say that [mainline] SF is
perhaps less wildly imaginative than other areas simply because the
authors put more time into developing plausibilities rather than
making wild, directionless leaps into the unknown.)  Frequently such
criticisms come out of ignorance; there is a recent Malzberg history
of the field which seems to have been written solely to support his
halfwitted theses (it certainly shows that he hasn't even done basic
study of the period he talks about). (No, I don't have the title, and
under the circumstances I'm not going to go back and reread it to give
you all an inventory as I have too much in my queue that's worth
reading.)

------------------------------

Date: 2-Jul-82  9:34:35 EDT
From: duntemann.wbst
Subject: RE: SF Authors who covet the Mainstream

Another SF luminary who renounced the field some years back was
Robert Silverberg, amidst much acidic foofaraw.  But he came back.
They all come back.  Another was Alan Brennert, who came back to write
scripts for Buck Rogers.  I'd love to hear of somebody who left and
DIDN'T come back.

I missed Zebrowski's snotty comments, as I think his fiction is
bloated and dumb and don't read him anymore.  But I've met the man and
I think I know where he's coming from.

The people who gripe, moan, and complain and (temporarily) leave are
those SF writers who strive to create Literature.  Spinning yarns
isn't enough.  They indeed want to answer cosmic questions
embracing all time and all space.  They want to deal with Important
Issues.  They want (I guess) to rub shoulders with the great writers
of what we (also snottily) call the Mainstream.  They want Status,
Importance, all that stuff.  Which is legit.  Where they go wrong is
in thinking they can consciously work toward such things as a goal.

No way.  Nobody can set out to write Literature; you tell a tale and
if time proves it good enough, you've written Literature.  If you
haven't got it in you, or if you have but it isn't quite ready yet,
you only end up sounding pompous and dumb and snotty.

Many SF writers try to do it full time, no matter how hungry they get.
They get looked down on by academic and the bright lights of the
Mainstream, and it hurts.  So they toss tomatoes at the only targets
they can reach, which is the rest of us.  I think they'd feel better
if they had something else to hang their self-esteem on.  I've been a
published writer for almost ten years, but the total take on ten
stories is $2800.  Not a living wage.  Better to make good buc as a
programmer and tell tales for the hell of it.  That's something I wish
a few more low-mid level SF writers would do.  They'd write better
stories and we'd all be happier.

Keep this up;p I just got on but I like it.  Extra characters
inserted by noisy lines, mostly, and will be corrected in time.

--Jeff Duntemann <duntemann.wbst PARC-MAXC>

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 0959-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Genderless video games

Q.  What does PacMan wear while hiking?

A.  PacPack.

(I REALLY apologize ...)

------------------------------

Date: Monday, July 5, 1982 6:16AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discusses some plot details in the
novel The Day After Judgment, by James Blish.  Some readers may not
wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 13 June 1982 22:06-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-AI>
Subject: The Day After Judgment (possible spoiler review)

Book: The Day After Judgment
      James Blish
      Avon Paperbacks, $2.50 (1982 release)

Pico review: Extremely unsatisfying climax, otherwise kinda ok.

Review: TDAJ is the sequel to James Blish's Satanic novel of the
Armageddon 'Black Easter'. These two books (originally published 1968
and 1971) combine one third of the three part 'after such knowledge
trilogy, in which Blish looks at the Black arts from a Historic
'Doctor Mirabilis', modern 'Black Easter and TDAJ', and futuristic 'A
case of conscience' viewpoint.  Calling Black Easter and TDAJ SF is
stretching things. It is more of a fantasy which is heavily based in
the reality of occult sciences. Black Easter tells the events leading
up to Armageddon in our nuclear world, told from the viewpoints of a
munition dealer and the sorcerer he hires to let the demons loose for
an evening of evil. Once they are out, they decide to stay out and
declare armageddon and stay out.
TDAJ takes up where Black Easter leaves off. The world is a nuclear
cesspool, with certain exception. The SAC base under Denver still
exists. Certain other areas have also escaped destruction, at least
temporarily. Suddenly, the SAC base finds that someone has built a
base in death valley. The computer decides that it is the City of DIS,
the mythical city on the outskirts of heck. The intrepids who caused
this whole thing to begin decide to travel to DIS to attempt to put it
all back together again, them against Satan. There is a
semi-interesting nuclear attack by the SAC base, and finally a face to
face confrontation between the people who opened the gates of heck
and Satan himself. At this point, Satan lapses into a highly
Miltonesque piece of Prose, declares that by winning the war against
Heaven he really lost, and pulls all of heck back into the ground. End
of armageddon, end of story, end of book. One of the most blatant Deus
Ex Machina endings I have ever seen, and it ruined the whole series
for me. I first read Black Easter back in 75, and have been looking
for the sequel since. Now I wish I hadn't.

Rating: If you are interested in the Occult, BE and TDAJ are both
pretty heavily laden with tidbits of information. If you are willing
to stop reading before you reach the final chapter, then TDAJ is
probably a pretty good book. I would seriously recommend reading Black
Easter and simply sticking with that.

chuq (chuqui@mit-mc)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #7
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, July 7, 1982 1:50AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #7
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:
     SF Books - Ellison Query & Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever &
          Colony & Voyage from Yesteryear & Crystal Singer,
                        SF Movies - The Thing,
             SF Topics - SF Ghetto & Hard SF & Brain Use,
                 Random Topics - Violence in Movies,
                   Humor - Genderless Video Games,
                Spoiler - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 1982 1142-PDT
From: Francine Perillo <PERILLO at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Query

Does anyone know whether The Glass Teat and The Glass Teat II by
Harlin Ellison are currently in print? A friend of mine cannot locate
copies in the Bay Area. Any suggestions as to where to look?

-Francine

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1982 0214-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: for all you Thomas Covenant fans out there

I don't think I sent this to SF-L yet so here goes.

Several weeks ago, a lecture on fantasy and science fiction was given
in a town near where I live.  One of the three speakers was Darrell
Sweet, who does cover art for Del Rey line of SF from Ballantine
Books.  Mr Sweet, who did the cover art for each of the first five
Thomas Covenant books by Stephen Donaldson, mentioned that he had just
gotten the manuscript for the sixth book.  After the lecture, I asked
him when he thought that this sixth book would be available; he said
he thought it would probably be out sometime in June 1983.

Sweet also confirmed the rumor that Donaldson had had a big fight with
his editor about the fifth book in the series (The One Tree).  This
rumor was mentioned here quite some time back, I don't remember when
and I don't have access to the archives (perhaps our kindly, but
overworked, moderator could fill in the reference here?).  According
to Darrell Sweet, Donaldson had something go terribly wrong in his
personal life and (as far as I understand this) it had a fairly
serious effect on "The One Tree" and on his attitude towards the book.
As a result Donaldson had a big fight with Lester del Rey, who was his
editor at the time.  Del Rey refused to continue working with
Donaldson, and "The One Tree" was stalled until a new editor could be
found.  As far as I can tell, Sweet seems to feel that del Rey was in
the right and Donaldson in the wrong. (Sweet mentioned that he wanted
to get to the new manuscript soon so he could find out if Donaldson
had gotten himself pulled together and Thomas Covenant out the fix
that he got left in in "The One Tree".)

        Steve Z.

p.s. No I didn't ask Sweet about this rumor.  As a matter of fact, I'm
not even sure how the subject came up.  I think it was because someone
asked him how he picked the scene that he painted for the cover of
"The One Tree".

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 04:15:28-PDT
From: pur-ee!pur-phy!retief at Berkeley
Subject: Laumer and Hogan (slight spoiler)

  Recently Keith Laumer wrote a book with a title like "Colony", but I
seen other titles, similar yet different to it.  Is there one book or
more?

  I've just finished reading James Hogan's new book "Voyage from
Yesteryear" and found it to be very good.  Not as talky as many of his
earlier works (although he tends to cook up strange <charmed?> physics
theories.)
  The plot is basically of a stellar colony (naive to old Earth's
biases) coming into comflict with its barbaric ancestors.
  The stellar society that Hogan creates is similar to many "utopian"
societies (but different too), but the isolation of interstellar space
makes the whole story a bit more real.
  "Voyage from Yesteryear" is an interesting book to read.  Try it.
                        -- Dwight Bartholomew --

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 12:36:42-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: radio advertising of sf

   LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE was supposed to be advertised, according to
the contract; the commercials were only heard (so far as I know) in
parts of California (Ellison has flamed about this). I heard an ad in
Boston a few years back for THE MAGIC GOES AWAY.

------------------------------

Date: 3 July 1982 13:09-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: Re: Movies as the only discussion topic.

Hey man, I don't actually read the stuff, movies are where its at...

Seriously, I got the Crystal Singer compression (more on that term
later) the other day, and found it interesting. One of those things I
read once, and put away for 3 months because I don't feel like reading
it again right away (as opposed to Friday, which definitely deserves
an immediate rescan/reparse.)

The bitch I have with it is the same one I had with Juxtaposition, I
saw too many elements of another series by the same author in it. Just
as Anthony used the magic/non-magic and sentient/humanoid themes in
both the Split Infinity and Xanth series, McCaffrey uses the
"achieving in one's profession" (Ship that Sang/Harper series) and
"paying back one's dues quickly" (Ship that Sang) themes in Crystal
Singer.

I don't mind an author using the same idea more than once (if
approached from a new angle), but I find it somewhat lazy to use the
same themes in two or more series. I will give McCaffrey one thing,
the protagonist of Crystal Singer is about as far from the
self-conscious Menolly of Dragonsong as can be. I just wish authors
would stop playing safe with "pretested" plotlines.

A note on Crystal Singer: This is a collection of shorts novelized
into a coherent narration. They were written before Weyr Search (I
think), so the theme recycling may have propagated in the other
direction.

Note2: This is part of a larger flame on the subject of "Why are so
many series being hatched as such instead of evolving into series
based on merit? Answer: Greed".

Note3: I have been told by friends that they can't see any parallels
between Crystal Singer and other McCaffrey works. Am I going gaga.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1982 14:43:56 EDT (Sunday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: The Thing

Well, John Carpenter has finally made a worthy sequel to his ``Dark
Star''.  This one's not a comedy, though.

``The Thing'' is a horror movie, all right.  From the openning shots
when the helicopter filled with crazy Norwegians chases a sled-dog
across Antarctic snows, to the ambiguous ending (how many Things are
left, anyway?) you're rivetted to your seat.  The Thing is an evil
(but, unlike ``Alien''s alien, believable) nightmare creature.  The
people at this Antarctic research station don't do anything stupid
(again in contrast to ``Alien'', and most other horror movies), but
they're victims all the same.

Boy, see this movie with someone you won't be embarrassed clutching at
when things get tense.  Avoid this movie if you're subject to
hypertension...

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1982 0147-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Violence in movies

The wonderful thing about Glenn Collins' article is that it shows the
power of quoting out of context and of juxtaposing unrelated comments.

        Steve Z.

p.s. While gore and violence aren't really nice things, the tendency
of viewing them as the pentultimate evil (second only to sex) in
movies is absurd.  The world is full of violence.  If we wish to keep
people from seeing or hearing about violence we had best kill everyone
now and be done with it, there is no other way to keep people from
seeing the violence inherent in the world.  All things must be taken
in context, including the violence in movies.

------------------------------

Date: Sat Jul  3 05:15:46 1982
From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Berkeley
Subject: Real SF writers dont...

        Hmm.  What about another division in science fiction.  There
was a time when my grade six teacher was perfectly correct in saying
that the central theme of science ficiton was a scientific idea or a
technological device, and that though the character development in
science fiction was often weak, it was a harder medium to write than
is genrally believed because it demanded a scientific excellance to be
successful.

        Now the vast majority of science fiction is based on the inner
stuggles of human beings (or alien beings).  We have moral, personal,
humanistic, soft sf.  Good sf, yes, -- but the problem is that there
are many times when I am only too aware that there are 'people
problems' and what I want to do is bask in the appreciation of some
idea or technology.

        I am perfectly willing to read science ficiton which has less
'characterization' and less 'this is the work of an author to rival
Hemmingway' and more 'Holy smoke arent Beanstalks really neat things!'
I do demand that the science is *accurate* (or *accurate for the time*
or *accurate with future predicitons/extrapolations*).

        So I read all of Clarke, Asimov, Sheffield, Clement, Hogan and
Dragon's Egg (the only thing I have seen by Forward).  I then read
Niven and Hoyle and ... now where do I go??  With the exception of
Sheffield, Forward and Hogan are all the 'gosh neat idea/technology'
people all in semi-retirement?? I know that fantasy sells -- I know
that sf has had to overcome the 'sf has no relevance to humanity
because it is not human oriented stigmata' ... but where do I get the
hard sf I want ... who *else* is writing it *now* ???

going through withdrawl waiting for the Hogan release (July 15??)

Laura Creighton
decvax!utzoo!laura

------------------------------

Date: 29 June 1982 06:40-EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>
Subject: 6% of brain.


Mijjil said something in a recent digest about the average person
using only six per cent of their brain.  I have been hearing this or
similar gibberish for a long time.  What is the origin of this
folklore?

Danny Hillis (I think) once got a phone call from a reporter.  "I've
heard that the average person only uses about 20% of their brain."

"Well, uh," replied Danny, not knowing how to respond to this kind of
gubbish.

"I was wondering," continued the reporter, "what the exact figure is?"

   ---Allan

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 1982 1834-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Another PacPun...

        What do you call a rodent PACMAN?

A PAC-RAT.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, July 7, 1982 1:50AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some readers may not wish to
read on.
------------------------------

Date: Tue Jun 29 20:17:23 1982
From: decvax!idis!mi-cec!dvk at Berkeley
Subject: SPOILER WARNING - comment on ST-II TWOK


Seem's to me that the whole show could have been avoided if Chekhov,
in his wisdom of the Botany Bay affair, had simply yelled into his
mike "Beam us up Enterprise - NOW!", instead of turning tail and
running into Ricardo Egobahn.

And WHY is Kirk such an asshole when it comes to Starfleet regs and
shields.  What a JERK! And in reply to the earlier question, why DID
the critter leave the warmth of Chekhov's obviously tasty mind?

Ah, well. To be fair, ST-II was a far-far better movie than ST-I. It
mercifully lacked the seemingly endless moments of studying the
"concerned" faces of the crew (that we all know by heart now ANYWAY).

                                -Dan Klein

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 01:30:08-PDT
From: pur-ee!pur-phy!hal at Berkeley
Subject: STII:TWOK

    Has anyone other than me found it strange that Chekov, who was
assigned to the crew of the Reliant at the beginning of the movie,
just waltzes onto the bridge of the Enterprise ready to assume "his"
duties?  Does anyone have a plausible explanation?  I know that it
wasn't explicitly stated that he was part of the Reliant's crew but it
sure appeared that way to me.
                                Hal Chambers
                                pur-ee!pur-phy!hal

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 1982 1901-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER at MIT-XX>
Subject: Why the critter crawled out of Chekov's ear

Just before it crawled out, McCoy was running his tricorder on Chekov.
I assumed that that miraculous device is what caused it to leave.

Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #8
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, July 8, 1982 5:29AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #8
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:
              SF Music - Star Trek: The Motion Picture,
                   SF Movies - TRON & Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1982 12:41:46-EDT
From: Lee.Schumacher at CMU-750X at CMU-10A
Subject: bladerunner, etc

First, A minor flame : Would people please stop posting canned movie
reviews!  I'm tired of having to sit through three reviews of a movie
that I'm not interested in. Besides, movie reviews usually reveal more
plot than I like to know going into a movie.

[ See volume 5, issue 66 for a general discussion of this point.
  We'll continue to distribute newswire stories as long as they (like
  anything else) are submitted.  Please also note that long messages
  are usually distributed over the weekends, and that many recent
  issues have been "one topic" digests (such as this one), enabling
  you to read or ignore material about a particular movie with
  relative ease.  -- Jim ]

Second, I saw a rerun of the pbs show 'Sneak Preview' and what they
said about BladeRunner seemed to jibe with everything I've heard. One
of the two hosts commented that it was visually a stunning movie, but
that he just couldn't get involved with the characters. This seems
like a good point, as I don't think that P. K. Dick is a very
interesting, or competent writer. I personally am tired of Showcase
films for the special effects wizards.

Third, Speaking of showcase films, has anyone heard anything about
'TRON' ??  The was an article about the computer animation in TRON in
the Smithsonian this month. It seemed quite interesting.

[ See volume 5, issues 45, 46, 48, and 55; volume 6, issue 5 -- Jim ]

                --Lee Schumacher.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1982 1005-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: Query about Blade Runner
What were the first (two?) origami figures which the other detective
created. I didn't realize until the end of the movie that they were
being offered almost as "tarot" interpretations of the events. The
last one was a unicorn! A beautiful mythical (i.e. synthetic)
creature.

Caught the TV Sneak Previews reviews of "Blade Runner". As bad as any
I've seen. As someone else mentioned to me, it would be as though
someone reviewed a Civil War drama about slavery and only noted the
special effects. None of the reviewers caught the plot apparently.

How is Blade Runner doing at the Box Office? I'd hate to see this one
not make good money--they will be that much more shy of trying other
quality science-fiction.

------------------------------

Date: 03 Jul 1982 1300-PDT
From: Richard Pattis <REP at SU-AI>
Subject: Two Shorties


BladeRunner : The movie was interesting visually; the plot was boring
and shallow.  At first I was dismayed that Dick's name was not
presented during the opening credits -- as the movie progressed, I
felt relieved.  The plot of BladeRunner (below surface level) bears
little resemblance to "Do Androids Dread of Electic Sheep".  I suggest
that all interested parties read the book.

On TV yesterday I caught a promo for ABC's wide world of sports.  The
music they were playing was the theme song from ST-TMP.  Has this been
going on for a long time, or has it just started?

rich

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1982 0129-EDT
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Those outside reviews, and my feelings about Blade Runner

Hmm, just read all those reviews.  For the record, I think Freedman
slept through 30 seconds out of every minute; at least Maslin seems to
have actually seen the film.  I would say that Maslin's review is
reasonably accurate in terms of details of the movie (although her
review does read like she may have read the book before writing the
review).  I recommend that everyone read Dick's book even if you don't
go to see the movie.

Although major portions of the book have been discarded or rewritten,
I believe that the movie does manage to raise the same questions as
the book.  Most of the changes seem to have been made because a two
hour movie simply cannot do justice to a whole novel; this has
resulted in some portions of the book being discarded and others being
rewritten to eliminate references to the discarded sections.  Although
the film has some problems (it a tends to be somewhat confusing, I
still wonder what happened to the fifth replicant that made it to
Earth - Rachael doesn't count, she was already on Earth), I believe
these problems are no worse than those of Dick's book (it is just as
confusing, I still can't figure out which replicants came to Earth in
which groups).

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1982 14:05:50 EDT (Sunday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Blade Runner

I saw ``Blade Runner'' at the earliest opportunity, having been a Dick
fan for some time, and having looked forward to what might have been a
real science fiction film (the first one of recent times) in which
people were faced with hard problems brought on by the advance of
science--the first one since ``Dark Star''.

``Blade Runner'' sucks raw eggs through a straw.  GREAT production
designs, though.  If you ignore the voice-overs, and the story, and
just watch the scenery roll by, it's a damn fine movie (I might add
that this same statement is true of ``Escape from New York'', which
was a totally BEAUTIFUL film (who'd think that grungy, litter-strewn
streets filmed under the glare of mercury-vapor lights could be
beautiful? )).

What you get are unmotivated characters doing totally objectionable
things for 90 minutes in ``living'' color.  Rick Deckard is an
ex-blade runner--he has left it, having grown sick of the killing and
violence.  How do we know he's sick of the violence?  He tells us at
the beginning of the film.  That's the last we hear of it, as he goes
on a killing spree that makes the last ten minutes of ``Taxi Driver''
look tame by comparison.  Why DOES Deckard go back to work?  The lame
excuse ``I'd rather be a killer than a victim'' seems pretty lame by
the time he's finished.

We're told that androids are bad because they lack emotions.  Then we
watch one go insane at viewing the mangled corpse of his mate, and
evince very real emotions.  Ridley Scott COULD have posed the
interesting question "Who's human in this picture--the ruthless
killers in the police force, or these androids confronted with their
own mortality, with persecution and intolerance?" But he doesn't.  He
ducks the interesting questions to give us a lovingly-filmed splatter
movie.

I also found the romance between Deckard and Rachel Tyrrel to be
totally objectionable.  We're told Deckard loves her, but we're given
no reason to believe it.  In one scene Deckard practically rapes
Rachel, telling her to "say you want more", "say you love me", with
the sort of insensitivity that sends Andrea Dworkin reaching for her
censorship scissors.  I found myself wondering if Rachel really did
love Deckard, or if she was just playing along because she was afraid
that any minute now he would blow her head off (which is his job,
after all).  But its okay, the movie seems to say, 'cause deep down
inside every woman wants to be raped.
When is Hollywood going to give us a Science-Fiction movie that is
more than just snazzy wrapping around an empty package?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 1982 1749-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: Blade Runner Reviews

As I am in artificial intelligence, I probably do see more merit in
Blade Runner than say, a Shakespearian Literary Reviewer---but the
published reviews I have seen so far have been so utterly oblivious to
the issues which Blade Runner raised that I find it hard to believe
these "movie critics" are qualified for their jobs.

Above all, Blade Runner is a movie about the consequences to society
of creating artificially intelligent machines which in virtually every
regard are our equals and then using them as slaves. It is a profound
statement about the morality of certain aspects of artificial
intelligence and about the potential consequences of synthesizing a
human mind complete with emotions and memories. I have seen reviewers
comment about the fine special effects, about the violence, about the
vision of L.A. in ruins (recall that Dick's original book was a bit of
an eco-catastrophe satire)--- BUT they ignore what to me is the major
moral dilemma which the movie tried to raise. Do we have the right to
recreate slavery by manufacturing human machines.

Some reviews have noted the excessive violence shown when replicants
are "retired" by Harrison Ford. The point of that was to emphasize the
similarity between killing human beings and what was in that society
dealt with as simply stopping a machine that had gone wrong.  Some
reviews have noted that the "replicants" ran away--and stopped there!
WHY did they run away? They ran away from slavery! They ran away from
being used as machines although they had been built to understand and
react, externally and internally, as human beings. They simply wanted
freedom.

Blade Runner is among the finest science fiction to ever make it to
the screen.  It deals with contemporary issues such as genetic
engineering and artificial intelligence. It contains a good detective
story.  It raises issues of the morality of science. It is superbly
executed.  The plot is intricate but eminently well connected
(provided you don't ignore the basic point that "replicants" are not
humans--but manufactured entities).  It contains statements about
ecological ruin, about a future in which virtually all animals are
gone, apart from zoos. It may be a landmark. It is certain to become a
classic that will be intelligently discussed in both cinema and
science-fiction circles for decades to come--perhaps as classic to
science-fiction as the Maltise Falcon has become to mystery films.
More significantly, it probably augurs the beginning of an era in
which science-fiction movies will be made from hit science-fiction
books. And the prospects of finally getting beyond the TV-show plot is
an event which will be historically significant.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1982 1913-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds <Reynolds@Rand-AI>
Reply-to: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI
Subject: Blade Runner - Explosions

SHG@MIT-OZ asked what the "explosions" at the start of Blade Runner
where. They were just supposed to be flame-offs of the flameble
chemicals coming out of those industrial plants. Each of the flames
comes from the top of one of the stacks of the plants, along with a
light effect to make the model look like it is being illuminated by
the flames, which were matted in later. In fact, if you watch closely
you will see that these flame elements were not really matted (which
involves holding out the background image) but simply "added" in (by
DX - double exposure). At one point there is a very large flame that
covers most of the screen, as the bottom of the flame lifts away there
is no smoke or soot holding out the background.

In general I liked Blade Runner, there was a real story which was
merely supported by the special effects. The effects, while good, were
not the stars of the film. I did find it hard to believe that some of
these interiors were THAT smokey, the air on the street level was
better than inside some of the buildings.

-c

------------------------------

Date: 6-Jul-82 16:31:21 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: That rain in "Blade Runner"

According to a recent news article in LA, the constant rain in "Blade
Runner" was put in so that the audience couldn't tell that the movie
was shot entirely on a studio backlot.  Without the rain, the edges of
the set would have been visible.

/Ron

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #9
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, July 9, 1982 2:14AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #9
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 9 Jul 1982        Volume 6 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:
                     SF Art - Edd Cartier Query,
         SF Books - Ellison Query Answered & Juxtaposition &
              Merchanter's Luck & The Identity Matrix &
               Voyage from Yesteryear & Crystal Singer,
          SF Topics - Hard SF & Brain Use,  SF TV - HHGttG,
    SF Movies - Revenues & Wolfen,  Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 July 1982 20:12 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Whatever happened to Edd Cartier...

 ...who drew all those neat aliens in the 50's?  And is his stuff
collected anywhere?  My kid came across a couple of his drawings in an
old book of mine and wants more.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 8 July 1982 20:35-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: Query

I THINK they are out of print. If anyone in the Bay area has them, The
Other Change of Hobbit ((415) 848-0413) should somewhere in their used
books. You might want to give them a call and see (they are in
Berkeley).

chuck

------------------------------

Date: Tue Jun 29 09:17:51 1982
From: npois!harpo!floyd!vax135!lime!houca!houxi!houxo!bdt at Berkeley
Subject: Juxtaposition

Piers Anthony came out with the third book in the Split Infinity trio.
It is called Juxtaposition.  It is the last book in Stile's
adventures. The book was excellent if you like the series and okay if
you don't.

                                         Bonnie Topf, HO 4f-514
                                                   system orange

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1982 0416-PDT
From: Barry Eynon <CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Book reviews

Some authors I pick up with no other information than their name. I
just got through the latest stack from the bookstore, thought I'd pass
on my reactions.


"Merchanter's Luck", by C.J.Cherryh (DAW). ***

As can be told from the subtitle ("Rendezvous at Downbelow Station"),
this book is set in sequence with her excellent novel "Downbelow
Station", though one could hardly call it a sequel. Set about 5 years
after the action of the former novel,it tells a story of two of the
merchant families operating in those times. While generally a good
read ( what by Ms Cherryh isn't?), it definitely lacks the scope of
DS, and also the marvelous explorations of non-human societies which
are characteristic of the author's other works.  Perhaps we're going
to see more stories set in this universe ( is it possible "Pride of
Chanur" is the same universe? Imagine the fireworks between Pyanfar
and Signy Mallory...), I'll be interested to see what she does with
it.


"The Identity Matrix", by Jack L. Chalker (Timescape). **

Chalker seems to have a thing about body switching. Add to that the
usual dose of spy/intrigue action, and you've got a pretty similar
Chalker novel to several he's already written. About the only new
twists are that it's set on Earth, and Earth is being invaded by not
one, but two body-switching, mind-controlling alien races. Eh. I'll be
happier when he gets back into larger themes, like Well World or
Worlds of the Diamond.


"Voyage from Yesteryear", by James P. Hogan (Ballantine).****

A pleasant surprize. First, I was surprised that this was NOT a
time-travel novel, as I guessed from the author's previous work and
the title. What it is, is a well-told version of the utopian idea of
what a great world it would be if a generation of kids got to grow up
without getting their parents preconceptions and bad influences. This
happens on Chiron, a planet of Alpha Centauri,when a survey ship is
sent off with only genetic codes and some robots as an ark against an
apparent oncoming war on Earth. Eventually the survivors of the war
get around to checking up on the colony, and arrive in a generation
ship, intent on imposing Earth-normal standards and ways. Of course
the colonists have different ideas...

Hogan is definitely getting to be a better author with increasing
experience. In addition to the expected hard-sf background (including
a pretty slick theory of sub-sub-sub atomic particles and the origin
of the universe that almost seems to make sense - any physicists care
to comment?), there are interesting, well-defined characters , a good
plot, and some intriguing social speculations. Probably the best thing
Hogan has written.


Well, back to the bookstands..

-Barry Eynon

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 11:02:24-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: CRYSTAL SINGER

   in fact was written a long time after "Weyr Search". It's one of
the last (and one of the few worthwhile) results of the Elwood
intrusion of the mid-70's; he asked a batch of authors to write four
connected stories, and published one from each author in each of
CONTINUUM 1-4. Considering that it was an Elwood idea \and/ a gimmick
(would you buy a magazine that consisted only of the third of four
parts of a half-dozen serials?)  it's surprising that anything even as
good as CRYSTAL SINGER came out of it.
  By the way, has anyone else seen the revolting advertising campaign
for CS? In 48-point type it calls McCaffrey "Science Fiction's
Sweetheart".  AAUUGGHH!

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1982 1938-CDT
From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Voyage From Yesteryear

I just read James P Hogan's /Voyage From Yesteryear/.  I will
paraphrase the cover blurb:  Prior to a major nuclear war on Earth, a
colonization probe is sent to Alpha Centauri. The colony thrives.
Fifty or so years later, after the war earth recovers and sends
another expedition to A. Centauri to re-assert Earth's dominion over
the colony. Of course, the colonists (who have developed a utopian,
read that anarchistic, society) see things differently...

If you enjoyed Hogan's earlier works such as /Inherit the Stars/ you
will probably like this one as well. I thought it was quite good.  My
principle criticism is that it was a little too didactic, i.e.  laden
with pop sociology and political theory. But since I happen to agree
with Hogan's ideas (for the most part), it wasn't overly offensive.
Read as sort of a thriller or adventure story, this novel is very
satisfactory escape reading.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 15:01:41 EDT (Thursday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Hogan & hard sf

Re: SFL V6 #7

I second Dwight Bartholemew's recommendation of Hogan's "Voyage from
Yesteryear".  I, too, found it quite enjoyable, although I do not rank
it as any kind of masterpiece.  I think that Hogan's work has been
progressing consistently from good, but rather dry, hard science
fiction with very little drama, to much more exciting, good, hard sf.

I agree that the utopian society that Hogan creates is more believable
than many, and I also appreciated that he didn't bludgeon us with
political propaganda extolling the virtues of the society, but let it
speak for itself, unlike, say, Smith in "The Probability Broach".


    "So I read all of Clarke, Asimov, Sheffield, Clement, Hogan and
    Dragon's Egg (the only thing I have seen by Forward).  I then read
    Niven and Hoyle and ... now where do I go?? "
                                         Laura Creighton

If people do have advice for someone with this problem (me, for
another example) please, Please, PLEASE, send it to SFL immediately.
Another name I can mention (as I have before) is Donald Moffitt, who's
written only one book, to my knowledge, i.e. "The Jupiter Theft".
This one IS some kind of masterpiece, and I only wish that Moffitt
would write more.

                                -ben-

------------------------------

Date: 8-Jul-82  2:28:35 PDT (Thursday)
From: jackson at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: 6% of brain.

Maybe after i see a coherent explanation of how memory and reasoning
work i will believe that we can start talking about the efficiency of
the process.  Until then, all statements of the form "An average
person only uses X% of their brain" get parsed as noise.

stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu Jul  8 13:28:27 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, TV version from England

I have heard a rumor that some episodes of this will be shown on
public television this weekend, Friday and Saturday nights.

Check you listings HHG fans!

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1982 18:30 mst
From: Harvey.Multics at PCO-MULTICS
Reply-to: "Harvey.Multics@PCO-Multics" at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: ABC version of Hitchhiker's Guide

I just talked to a friend from LA. Her boyfriend tried out for a part
in the series.  The latest word is that the effort has been canceled.

More info will be coming if there is more to get...

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 1404-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: 50 Top-Grossing Films (week ending June 23) (source: Variety)

Ranks:  Last-week  =>This week
   Film Name (Rank Change + = up 1, - = down 1)
     Total to Date
        Weeks on Chart

1 => 1.  E T - The Extra-Terrestrial       $11,688,128 (2 weeks)
3 => 2.  Rocky II (+)                      $19,014,725 (4 weeks)
2 => 3.  Star Trek II-Wrath of Kahn (-)    $12,322,620 (3 weeks)
4 => 4.  Poltergeist                       $ 9,574,672 (3 weeks)
     5.  Firefox                           $ 2,492,300 (1 week )
12=> 6.  Annie (++++++)                    $ 3,867,932 (5 weeks)
5 => 7.  Grease 2 (--)                     $ 2,222,507 (2 weeks)
     8.  Author Author                     $   843,650 (1 week )
16=> 9.  Bambi (+++++++)                   $ 2,949,081 (13 weeks)
7 =>10.  Porky's (---)                     $17,398,969 (14 weeks)

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1982 21:18-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: wolfen (probable spoiler)

movie: Wolfen

Pico-review: feh

General review:

Wolfen could have been a lot of things. Unfortunately for the movie,
it never quite decided what it should be. It could have been a good
detective story.  It could have been a good SF film, a good horror
film, or a good social commentary film. What it is is a 'Nightstalker'
clone. Kolchak and Co.  could have done it much better.

There are two major problems to the story. First, they took a
reasonably good 'Nightstalker' story and stretched it to almost 2
hours. There was enough material for a good 60 minute (with
commercials) script, but not the whole thing. Second, there is very
little continuity. I was continually losing track of time in the
movie. It was night outside, there was sun streaming through windows,
it was day outside, it was night outside, almost seemingly at random.
Add to this the problem of 'wolf vision'. This was an interesting
effect in which the camera takes the viewpoint of the animal stalking
the city (I don't think it would be a spoiler to call it a wolf). From
this viewpoint, things become monochrome, although at times they also
become multi-colored in simulated infrared; it seems that wolves see
in black and white unless it is more dramatic to look at their victims
blood coursing through their veins. When in 'wolf vision', sound is
also distorted to simulate what wolves actually hear. This makes any
dialog said during 'wolf vision' unintelligible. An added problem of
'wolf vision' is that wolves are constantly swinging their heads from
side to side, causing motion sickness for the audience. Trying to give
the audience the viewpoint of the wolves was a great idea, but it was
an effect that was terribly overused, and in the end the effect was
boring, disorienting, and irritating.

There are 'interesting' sub-plots: Navajo 'shape-shifter' indians (are
these wolves live? or just in your mind?); politicians looking for
terrorists; the inevitable sex scene (seen through wolves eyes, no
less *sigh*); and all sorts of other inane twists that show up and go
nowhere.

If all this wasn't enough, the ending is one of the best endings I
have seen since 'The incredible shrinking man'. Without giving away
too much, the wolves and the detective smoke a peace pipe (what about
the rest of the city?), and as the police burst through the door, they
disappear. not leave, disappear. were they ever there? (see
'shape-shifter', above). there is a fair amount of mumbo-jumbo about
hunter, hunted, ruling the earth, and who are the really intelligent
beings on the planet. End of movie. Leaving intelligent wolves to
continue eating people in peace forever (remember, he smoked the peace
pipe).

All in all, when I wasn't bored, I was disappointed. The movie came
rather heavily recommended, and I can't see why.

Rating: mediocre. Stay up and watch 'Nightstalker' instead.

chuck (chuqui@mit-mc)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 1713-PDT
Subject: Humorless video gender
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

What do you call the degree for someone who has successfully completed
the first four screens of PACMAN?

The Paccalaureate?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #10
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 1:25AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #10
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 10 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:
               SF Movies - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial &
                        TRON & Secret of Nimh
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 July 1982 20:44 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: ET

ET seemed to be an updated Wizard of Oz with ET as Dorothy (complete
with the red glowing slippers) but it was sure short on interesting
characters and plot.  There was one plot, no subplots, and a LOT of
non-persons which aren't even as good as stereotypes.  I stand by
Sherlock Holmes, ordinary people aren't as ordinary as they look;
Speilberg doesn't just want ordinary people, he wants boring people.
Being a fan of those old John Wayne movies (like the Quiet Man) I
couldn't help wondering why they let so much potential plot slip by.
Why couldn't that crazy UFOlogist started romancin' Eliot's mom
earlier in the flick?  What a waste!  ET is not a great adult flick
and the only juvenile review I've heard (from a friend's 5 year old
daughter) involved sheer terror.  ET gave her the creepies.

As far as the book goes, the New York Times loved it.  They really
thought it was a profound novel which is one of the reasons I don't
read those things too often.  read their book reviews too much
anymore.

------------------------------

Date: 8-Jul-82 14:38:17 PDT (Thursday)
From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: TRON causes stock market crash!

Today's editions of the LA Times, LA Herald Examiner, and Wall Street
Journal report that after "TRON" was pre-screened Tuesday for
financial analysts, there was a massive sell-off of Disney shares.
The stock fell 2-1/2 points Wednesday, after the start of trading was
delayed 90 minutes because sell orders had piled up before the New
York Stock Exchange opened.

Blame for the selling spree is generally given to Theodore James of
Montgomery Securities, San Francisco.  James described the film as a
"seriously flawed, disjointed story" with "distracting" special
effects.


Incidentally, just what am I talking to when I call 1-800-622-TRON?
If that's a speech recognition device, it seems like a pretty
sophisticated one!

/Ron

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1982 21:11-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: Secret of Nimh

movie: The Secret of Nimh

Pico review: If only Walt had been alive to see it.

Micro review: The best thing Disney ever put out.
              Unfortunately, Disney didn't do it.

General comments: 'The Secret of Nimh' is a full length animated
feature film, done by Bluth Studios of Hollywood. For those that don't
know, Don Bluth was a long time animator for Walt Disney and the
Disney Studios, starting with them about the time of Snow White, and
continuing until 1977, when he (and about 45% of the animation group)
left Disney studios to form their own company.  The major complaint
was that the people who were running the studios had no more creative
vision than they could find in their wallets. (side note: we ALL know
this is false. Since Walt's death we have seen such wonderful and
successful Disney movies as 'Black Hole', 'Escape to Witch Mountain',
and the Betty Davis Fiasco that slips my mind at the moment). What we
have in 'The Secret of Nimh' is Bluth's attempt to return animation to
the high quality art form it was in the heyday of Disney Studios.

To the great amazement of myself (a long time Disney fen), he
succeeds.  Wonderfully. Spectacularly. superbly. Technically, the
animation is on the level of a 'Bambi', or 'fantasia'. There is such
detail in the background that you sometimes forget that the
backgrounds were drawn and not photographed. The characters and
animation are so carefully and wonderfully done that for the first
time in years, I have actually believed in a animated character.

As far as plot goes, it is rather similar to the disney film 'the
Rescuers', at least in general. In trying to compare the two films,
though, I find that there really isn't much to compare. Both films are
VERY family oriented, although real youngsters might find some of the
scenes rather intense. both use familiar voices (Nimh has Dom Deluise,
Derek Jacobi, and John Carradine among others), and both have animals
fighting the mean rotten adult humans.  One advantage that Nihm has
over Rescuers is that the voices of nihm never overpower the
characters. In rescuers, Ava Gabor's voice coming out of a mouse makes
me think of Ava Gabor. In Nihm, Dom Deluise's voice coming out of a
crow is much more natural and makes me listen to the crow talking. The
Rescuers animation just doesn't cut it, either.

With the exception of the more-or-less sexist plot-line (widow mouse
helps the cause and then goes home to tend children, satisfied with
her place in life), the plot is very lively and never really stops or
drags.

I guess I could keep drooling for hours. Summing up, about all I can
say is that it is wonderful to see that the wonderfulness and
loveliness of the disney film really didn't die with Walt. I was afraid
that it had.  Fortunately, Bluth has shown us that all it takes is a
little love. He obviously loves his work as much as Walt did, and it
shows. The only real problem is that he had to leave Disney Studios to
do it. Having worked for disney for four years (at disneyland), I can
understand why. Even at the 'Magic Kingdom' the magic has gone out,
and the bottom line is now more important than the smile on a childs
face. If Walt were alive today, he would be working for Bluth
Studios....

chuck (chuqui@mit-mc)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 1242-EDT
From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
Reply-to: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: "The Secret of NIMH"

Mini review -- It's worth seeing.

Midi review -- It may not be the old Disney, but it is a whole lot
               closer to it than anything else that's out (or that
               I've seen clips from.)  It is delightful.  It is well
               done.  It will probably be a Hugo Nominee next year.
               (If there weren't so much really tough competition, I
               believe it could have won it...  it may.)

General Comments:

The story is believable, but weak in several places.  Mrs. Brisby goes
through several stages of personal growth where she has to overcome
her own fears until she reaches her personal climax and faces a
confrontation with DRAGON, the farmer's cat.  Dragon is a marvelously
evil feline (viewed from the perspective of a mouse.) It is doesn't
compare with old Disney evil cats.  It is neither thin and cunning not
fat and cuddly (from the human perspective).

Eventually Mrs. Brisby meets with Nicodemus, the wisened elderly
leader of the rats.  [Not a spoiler] The rats are going through their
own growth crisis.  The dastardly Jenner is attempting to overthrow
Nicodemus and "The Plan" in favor of the status quo.  (The rats have a
rather cushy life under the rose bush, complete with electricity and
what the use of power can bring.)

Notables doing the voices include Hermione Baddeley as the busybody
neighbor, Auntie Shrew, Elizabeth Hartman as Mrs. Brisby, Dom De
Louise as Jeremy the crow (comic relief anyone?  This klutz - er, guy
is something else.)  Peter Strauss is the voice of Justin, the Errol
Flynn (complete with sword fight) of this film, and Derek Jacobi does
Nicodemus.  John Carradine is the omnipotent Great Owl who gives
classic advice to Mrs. Brisby.

                GO  TO  THE  RATS  !

P.S.  She's the only one who has ever been to see the owl and lived to
tell about it.

The animation is masterful through out most of the film.  In some
places, I felt deprived, but only because I was once again used to
seeing good animation.  When a scene was done with a little less
effort, it showed.  Let me point out, however, that even these "less
effort" scenes totally overshadow everything else I've seen recently.

I recommend the film on it's own merits.  I expect it will do well,
though not as well as E.T.  It will have to do well if we want to see
more like it.

As Bluth's first feature, I think he did very well.  I will expect
more and better in the future.  "The Secret of NIMH" will prove that
it can be done.

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1982 19:55 mst
From: Senft.Multics at PCO-MULTICS
Reply-to: Senft.Multics%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Secret of NIMH

Last year a discussion was going on about children's SF.  A great many
books were mentioned, but as I recall no movies.  I had the
opportunity to see a sneak of a children's SF&F film last week.  It is
an animated film in the style of the Disney studios of 20 years ago.
The animation is reminisent of that seen in Snow White, or Fantastia.
The reason the I am comparing this to Disney, is that the animators
left the Disney Studios over "artistic differences" several years ago.
They formed a production company and started doing their own films.
The company is Don Bluth Assoc.  and the film was "The Secret of
NIMH".  Th other key thing about the this movie is that it is not so
sugar coated and "gutless" as the recent Disney movies have been.

The story bears some mentioning, it is based on a childrens book "The
Rats of the NIMH", a Newberry Award winner in the early sixties.  The
Newberry award is given to the best childrens book each year.  The
film faithfully follows the book up to the ending where some "extra"
material was added.  The story is cute, science fiction, magic,
wholesome, and just plain good.  My son is an 8th-grader, and would
rather eat a bug then go to a "G" movie.  I dragged him to the sneak
(I am still bigger than he is, at least for another year), and he
enjoyed and wants to see it again.  The story has "guts", it doesn't
pull punches about death and destruction.  There is real terror when
the heroine's house is about to be destroyed.  There are scenes that
have the feel of terror that I got when I saw Snow White's wicked
step-mother give her the apple.

Now that I think about it I don't know if Snow White or some of the
other early Disney features would have gotten a "G" rating.
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #11
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 6:48PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #11
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 11 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:
                      SF Movies - Blade Runner,
                        Spoiler - Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 6:48PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

All of the messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie Blade Runner.  These might constitute mild spoilers for some
readers.  They may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1982 01:37-EDT
From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC>
Subject: Blade Runner

The special effects and atmosphere are nice.  Plot is alright. I don't
mind the violence.  Nonetheless, I found this movie insulting and
annoying.  For instance (and this is just one example), in his first
scene, Deckard explains to us how he used to be a blade runner, a
replicant hunter, presumably one of the best.  In his second scene, he
listens intently to a lecture about what a replicant is, asking
encouraging questions and learning all kinds of interesting facts such
as replicants' life-spans, etc.  Now really!  I'm willing to suspend
disbelief, but this movie requires you to suspend common sense (I
won't even say "intelligence") almost all the time.

I'm looking forward to a time in the far off future when we get an SF
movie for reasonably intelligent adults, not a glorified comic book
aimed at 10-year-olds. (No, I'm not holding my breath).

------------------------------

Date: 07/07/82 1101-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Blade Runner


Movie: Blade Runner (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep -Phillip K.
       Dick) - Harrison Ford, Sean Young
Pico Review: Classic 40's detective movie set in 2019. Worth seeing
for the special effects alone.

   First a question.  Does anyone out there know if this was filmed
for release in 3-D?  Lauren?  I noticed "edge effects" in spots doing
the movie; the final credits particularly.  The lettering had that
"blue on one side, red on the other" tinge the I generally associate
with 3-D films.

Review:  I could not take this movie seriously.  It is definitely a
remake of every 40's detective film, right down to the heroine's
clothes.  Also had the typical voice over of the detective's thoughts.
(Nick Danger lives!)  This is not to say that it wasn't enjoyable.  I
would definitely like to see it again to study the background now that
I know the script.
   Douglas (2001) Trumbull created the outstanding effects and they
are visually fascinating.
   Rutger Hauer was excellent in the role of the replicant leader.  He
played Wolfgar in Nighthawks, another good flick with music by Keith
Emerson.  I believe Hauer is well known in Germany.  Look for him to
do more American films in the future.
   Harrison Ford plays another rogue.  A character he is which
becoming typecast as.
   On the whole a good film that uses science fiction as the setting,
not the theme.

------------------------------

Date: 9-Jul-82 12:00:50 PDT (Friday)
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #8

Blade Runner:

I agree that the critics didn't see the same movie I did. But then,
what else is new?

I liked the movie a lot. Sure, there were things I didn't like: The
excessive futurism of only 40 years in the future probably bothered me
the most. Ford's Bogart style narration didn't make it for me, largely
because he tried to imitate Bogie just a little too much. In fact,
that was the major defect in his acting in the whole movie. I was also
bothered by the fifth replicant.

But for once we have seen a science fiction movie that had a real
theme, and did something with it. Contrary to one opinion, I did not
find the emotion displayed by the replicants inconsistent. We were
told by the intro and some of the characters that they were banned for
this reason, but one of the major points of the story was that this
was only what the humans believed. The replicants did indeed have
emotions, and this was the realization that Deckard finally had to
make in spite of himself and because of repeated evidence throughout
the movie.

I challenge Mankins to describe how Deckard seems to get enjoyment out
of his job. His justification for doing it ("I'd rather be a killer
than a victim") is a statement of resignation, not an excuse. Perhaps
David missed the fact that his boss threatened him into doing it. Most
of the killings he initially attempted since it was his job. The
inhuman abilities of his victims to survive necessitated the excessive
violence, and there was no small amount of fear in him at their
capabilities. I kept getting the feeling that each murder was getting
more difficult for him, both in terms of what it took to accomplish
and the realization that he might not survive.

We are all familiar with the general public reaction to certain kinds
of technology. It is obvious (to me at least) that the emotion
justification was simply a reaction to the earlier stages of the
technology, and probably bore resemblance to fact primarily because of
the obvious immaturity of the four year old beings rather than any
innate incapability.

I look forward to more movies of this type, not because it was itself
fantastic, but because it bears much more resemblance to the science
fiction I have been reading for the last fifteen years than anything
else since 2001.

Thanks to Amsler for pointing out the significance of the origami.
That passed me by, and is a good argument for the depth of thought
that went into the movie.

        -- Larry --

------------------------------

Date: 8 July 1982 17:23 edt
From: York.Multics at MIT-MULTICS (William M. York)
Subject: Blade Runner - replies to recent messages

I would like to reply to a few scattered messages that I have read in
recent digests.  I don't remember the original authors, but you know
who you are!

Phillip K. Dick is mentioned in the opening credits of the film.
There is a credit for the story "Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep", and the film is dedicated to Dick.

The "missing" 5th replicant is reported as being killed in an
"electric field", I think while trying to get to Tyrell.

As to the movie addressing the serious issues:  it doesn't really
address them, it merely raises them.  Sure, we are presented with
manufactured people (complete with self-awareness and rudimentary
emotions) being used as slaves and hunted through the streets like
animals.  But all analysis of the implications and consequences of
this situation are left as an exercise to the viewer.  This is not
simply a case of a subtle film message which requires effort on the
part of the audience to be understood.  The only references to the
whole problem are two instances of people looking at photographs of
their past selves, wondering if those people actually existed.  Any
consideration of the moral questions involved must be carried on
completely outside the context of the movie, for example through
messages to SF-Lovers.  Still, it was a good attempt, and I hope that
it sparks efforts towards more and better sf-based movies that are
more than just visually exciting.

------------------------------

Date: 7 July 1982 01:53-EDT
From: James A. Cox <APPLE at MIT-MC>
Subject: Blade Runner

Let me second Minow's comments about this movie: very weird.  All in
all, I was quite disturbed by it.  The basic idea is not that unique:
the reaction of society to artificially-created persons.  Most
recently, Heinlein used it in \Friday/.  The plot is virtually
non-existent.  (Harrison Ford hunts down "replicants."  Harrison Ford
falls in love with a beautiful female replicant.)  The strange part of
the movie is the atmosphere, which is hazy, decadent, and cynical, and
reminded me of some Humphrey Bogart films.  Most scenes seem to be
shot through some sort of fog or smoke, which was annoying to me.  The
dialogue was sometimes silly, other times cynically Bogartesque, and
much of the time didn't make much sense.  Characters seemed to feel
and act forcefully but without reasonable motivation.  Several times,
I had to fight the impulse to stand up in the theater and yell, "What
the hell's going on!"  I have not read \Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep/, and perhaps the book would clear up my confusions.  Meanwhile,
I consider \Bladerunner/ incomprehensible.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1982 1556-EDT
From: Tom Vasak <VASAK at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Blade Runner Review


        Blade Runner is indeed an interesting movie.  Loosely based on
a novel by Philip K. Dick called "Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep," it creates a tone and mood all its own.  While a large portion
of the plot of the movie is from the book, the movie takes its subset
of the book's plot and adds its own twists and perceptions to come up
with a very different effect.

        RD (Harrison Ford) is a "Blade Runner."  A Blade runner is in
the business of "retiring" rogue androids.  The androids of "Blade
Runner" are "biomechanical" constructs designed for use as slaves in
non-terrestrial circumstances.  Called "replicants", they are
indistinguishable from human beings except through rigorous
psychological testing.  Previous experiences with android rebellion
have resulted in the banning of androids on earth.  Any android found
on earth is to be destroyed upon detection.  This is not a foolproof
scheme as four androids have managed to escape their enslavement and
hijack a ship back to Earth.  The hunt for the replicants is the
primary plot line of the movie.  In addition there is an interesting
if poorly executed romantic subplot between RD and Rachael, a
character introduced as the niece of the designer of the rogue
androids.

        One of the most striking things about the movie is the vision
of Los Angeles in 2019.  If the movie is worth nothing at all except
for the scenery and special effects it is worth going to.  The city is
wet, dirty, crowded and completely believable.  A point about
Turnbull's accuracy; A friend who has spent some time in Hong Kong
thought that Hong Kong would be just like that 10 years from now.
(Hong Kong is generally considered to be one of the cites furthest
along in the process of urban evolution.)  Aside from its accuracy,
the scenery is very well done and is very effective (read depressing).

                ********** LOW DANGER SPOILER **********

        The other interesting thing about the movie is its peculiar
mix of mysticism and cynicism.  At some points the movie is very
grimly realist and at others it flying along in a very mystical
fashion.  This is one of the few movies I've seen that has a happy
ending but still leaves you in a *really* pessimistic state.  Ridley
Scott must have very weird dreams.  Imagine a film that discusses
"what is life?" ten minutes after Rich Deckard gets his fingers broken
for "sport" by the very character seriously discussing this
philosophical point.  Very weird.

                ********** End Of Spoiler **********

        All in all I would say that Blade Runner is a fairly good
movie and worth seeing.  It is not really Philp Dick's work, but is a
reasonable interpretation of some of the themes he presents.  Don't
skip the novel because of seeing the movie.  I am unsure whether or
not to advise you to read the novel before seeing the movie as the
movie is a little disappointing compared to the novel, but reading
the novel helps with some of the awkward movements of the film.


                                                        R'lyeh

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 82 12:59:55-EDT (Fri)
From: Andrew.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: Blade Runner

I saw Blade Runner on opening night, and liked it. I also have read
DADOES a number of times (starting oh, about 6-8 years ago).  However,
I was slightly disappointed that the movie didn't follow the book very
much.

This is, of course all in time interest, and they STILL made a good
movie. There was a good plot, and the effects were excellent also.

A good twist that they threw in was the orgami-ing dective - this
allowed them to increase the suspense of the movie.
                                        - Andy

------------------------------

From: DMM@MIT-ML
Date: 07/10/82 02:06:02
Subject: Re:Bladerunner

        Having seen the sneak of this movie several months ago, I
recently went back to see how the final version turned out.  I may be
overestimating the power of my suggestion card, but I watched the
new version feeling rather guilty.  I had found the original to be
somewhat disoreinting, as there were no explanations or background
given for anything.  What I had wanted was some extra footage that
might have been cut to be put back in, or something of that nature.
Instead, it looks like they hired some hack writer to come up with a
voice-over that makes the film seem almost like a Sam Spade parody.
Although the original left more questions in the viewer's mind, it
definitely had more impact than the end result that's in the theatres.
                       Cheers -- DMM IT-ML

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #12
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 10:23PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #12
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 12

Today's Topics:
                           SF Movies - TRON
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: TRON


                                 TRON
                           By JANET MASLIN
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    NEW YORK - ''Tron'' means to be a gloriously puerile movie, the
fullfledged screen embodiment of a video game. It even means to go to
the heart of video gamesmanship, and its premise is very promising in
its way. What if those tiny Space Invaders and Pac-Men were real
creatures, miniature gladiators sent to do battle for the amusement of
their heartless captors? What if a movie could capture the very spirit
of a computer toy and make it last not just for a few quarters' worth
of time, but indefinitely?
    The lavish Walt Disney production ''Tron'' tries prodigiously to
do this, but its technological wizardry isn't accompanied by any of
the old-fashioned virtues - plot, drama, clarity and emotion - for
which other Disney movies, or other films of any kind, are best
remembered.  It is beautiful - spectacularly so, at times - but dumb.
Computer fans may very well love it, because ''Tron'' is a nonstop
parade of stunning computer graphics, accompanied by a barrage of
scientific-sounding jargon. Though it's certainly very impressive, it
may not be the film for you if you haven't played Atari today.
    ''Tron'' was written and directed by Steven Lisberger, who works
in a passionate but choppy style, sometimes omitting the very basics
that ought to hold together a scene. It is a hard film to follow,
because Lisberger's script is an odd blend of technical terminology
and childish slang (''Are we almost there yet, Mommy?'' asks the
film's hero sarcastically at one point in the story's long
chase-adventure).
    But it owes a little bit to ''Alice in Wonderland'' and a little
bit more to ''Journey to the Center of the Earth.'' It tells of
someone who ventures into a world that is a topsy-turvy version of his
everyday environment. And it places that world inside a seemingly safe
and familiar exterior, that of a computer.
    Kevin Flynn (Jeff Bridges) is a smart-alecky scientist who has
developed in his spare time the program for Space Paranoids, a
computer game that makes money hand over fist. Kevin's employer, Ed
Dillinger, has appropriated the game. When Flynn tries to break into
the company computer to find evidence of Dillinger's theft, the
computer resents his intrusion and decides to show him who's boss. It
zaps him - the film has a more sophisticated term for this - and
transforms him into a tiny prisoner inside its own circuitry. The
actors from the film's real-world narrative - David Warner, Bruce
Boxleitner, Cindy Morgan and Barnard Hughes - all play double roles,
appearing as altered versions of themselves inside the computer world.
Dillinger, for example, has now become Sark.
    Beyond this, the film gets rather hard to explain. As it follows
Flynn's efforts to escape from this electronic maze, it becomes a
series of breathless chases, which are presented as speedy, thrilling
computer animation. Flynn and a few other would-be escapees whiz
across a landscape of grids and mazes, accompanied by a soundtrack
filled with deafening crashes. Half the audience at one preview
screening kept their fingers in their ears during a large portion of
the movie.
    Following the example of ''Star Wars,'' Lisberger tries to make
his heroes boyishly courageous, accompanying each act of derring-do
with a joke or a shrug, and transposing old-fashioned adventure movie
dialogue into a futuristic tale. If this looked easy and natural when
George Lucas did it, it doesn't here. The characters sound more goofy
than bold when they're forced to say things like, ''I knew you'd
escape - they haven't built a circuit that could hold you!'' And the
actors are further constrained by the mechanical side to their roles.
There are almost no scenes here that don't depend heavily on special
effects - effects added after the acting was done. How can the
performers keep from seeming as if they're acting in a void?
    Anyone not discouraged by these drawbacks will find ''Tron'' a
wonder to behold. Its computer sequences exist in a blue-gray scheme
filled with flashing lights, speeding objects and dizzying motion.
Its visual effects are wonderfully new. They are also numbing after a
while. And how could they not be? They're loud, bright and empty, and
they're all this movie has to offer.
    ''Tron'' is rated PG (''Parental Guidance Suggested''). It
contains some slightly violent scenes.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0126-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: TRON

                                 TRON
                            By Roger Ebert
           (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    TRON, starring Jeff Bridges, Bruce Boxleitner, David Warner, Cindy
Morgan, Barnard Hughes and Dan Shor. 4 stars.

    The interior of a computer is a fine and private place, and none,
I fear, do there embrace, except in ''Tron,'' a dazzling new movie
from Walt Disney in which computers have been used to make themselves
romantic and glamorous. This summer of 1982 has already caused the
most excitement among audiences in years, and now here's another
blockbuster to line up for, a technological sound-and-light show that
is sensational and brainy, stylish and fun.
    The movie addresses itself without apology to the computer
generation. That generation includes, I suppose, onetime
typewriter-pounders like myself. I am writing this review on a
portable computer terminal in a New York hotel room, and when I am
finished, I will simply dial a number in Chicago and wed the computer
and the telephone in some kind of song and dance that will result in
these words being automatically set in type and appearing in the
paper.
    That is enough of a miracle, right there, for me to accept almost
everything in ''Tron,'' but ''Tron'' goes one step farther and
embraces the imagery and gamesmanship of those arcade video games that
parents fear are programming the minds of their children.
    If you've never played Pac-Man or Space Invaders or the new Tron
game itself, you probably are not quite ready to see this movie, which
begins with an evil bureaucrat stealing computer programs to make
himself look good, and then enters the very mind of a computer itself
to engage the villain, the hero and several highly programmable
bystanders in a war of the wills that is governed by the rules of both
video games and computer programs.
    The villain is a man named Dillinger (David Warner). The hero is a
bright kid named Flynn (Jeff Bridges), who created the original
programs for five great new video games, including the wonderfully
named ''Space Paranoia.'' Dillinger stole Flynn's plans and covered
his tracks in the computer. Flynn believes that if he can track down
the original program, he can prove Dillinger is a thief. To prevent
that, Dillinger uses the very latest computer technology to break
Flynn down into a matrix of logical points and insert him INTO the
computer, and at that point ''Tron'' leaves any narrative or visual
universe we have ever seen before in a movie and charts its own rather
wonderful path.
    In an age of amazing special effects, ''Tron'' is a state-of-
the-art movie. It generates not just one imaginary computer universe,
but a multitude of them . Using computers as their tools, the Disney
filmmakers literally have been able to imagine any fictional
landscape, and then have it, through an animated computer program.
And they integrate their human actors and the wholly imaginary worlds
of Tron so cleverly that I never, ever, got the sensation that I was
watching some actor standing in front of, or in the middle of, special
effects. The characters inhabit this world.
    And what a world it is! Video gamesmen race each other at blinding
speed, hurtling up and down computer grids while the theater shakes
with the overkill of Dolby stereo (justified, for once). The
characters sneak around the computer's logic guardian terminals,
clamber up the sides of memory displays, talk their way past the
guardians of forbidden programs, hitch a ride on a power beam and
succeed in entering the mind of the very Master Control Program
itself, disabling it with an electronic Frisbee.
    This is all a whole lot of fun. ''Tron'' has been conceived and
written with a knowledge of computers that it mercifully assumes the
audience shares. That doesn't mean we do share it, but that we're
bright enough to pick it up, and don't have to sit through long,
boring explanations of it. I have the strange feeling that ''Tron'' is
going to popularize a whole new language among its fans, and that,
just as we all learned the names of R2D2 and C3PO when ''Star Wars''
came out in 1977, so now we are going to be dividing ourselves up into
Users and Programs.
    There is one additional observation I have to make about ''Tron,''
and I don't really want it to sound like a criticism: This is an
almost wholly technological movie. Although it's populated by actors
who are engaging (Bridges, Cindy Morgan) or sinister (Warner), it is
not really a movie about human nature. In fact, it knows about as much
about the weather of the soul as a - well, as a computer would.  Like
''Star Wars'' or ''The Empire Strikes Back,'' but much more so, this
movie is a machine to dazzle and delight us. It is not a human-
interest adventure in any generally accepted way. That's all right, of
course. It's brilliant at what it does, and in a technical way maybe
it's breaking ground for a generation of movies in which
computer-generated universes will be the background for mind-generated
stories about emotion-generated personalities. All things are
possible.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0126-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: TRON

                                 TRON
                         By RICHARD FREEDMAN
                        Newhouse News Service

    (UNDATED) Finding yourself trapped in a Chinese bakery must be fun
compared with being trapped inside the video games of ''TRON.'' At
least in the bakery you can send out funny SOS messages concealed in
fortune cookies.
    In ''TRON,'' on the other hand, you're in constant peril of
''deresolution'' - or, in layman's language, having the plug pulled
out from under you.
    Deresolution of another sort is what this $20 million, high-tech
science fiction Disney spectacular itself suffers from. Like the Tin
Man in ''The Wizard of Oz,'' it's all shiny and metallic and lacks a
heart.
    Written and directed by Steven Lisberger, ''TRON'' is
machine-tooled to woo kids away from video games and into movie
theaters, where they can exercise their fast reflexes and mechanical
ingenuity beating the popcorn machine.
    It borrows not only from ''The Wizard of Oz,'' but from ''Alice in
Wonderland,'' ''Star Wars,'' the story of David and Goliath and
computer jargon as well.
    It is fast and noisy and visually striking. Because no human
character in it is of any interst whatever, it is also deadly dull -
proving once again that while computers may think better than we do,
as yet they're not big on feeling.
    It is, in short, the ultimate special-effects movie - full of
sound, fury and whizzing cars that look like a cross between phone
receivers and Norelco shavers - but signifying precious little about
the human condition.
    Only 53 of the film's 96 minutes take place inside a video game.
The rest concerns the efforts of brilliant ''software engineer'' Flynn
(Jeff Bridges), inventor of such benefits to mankind as ''Space
Paranoia,'' to get back what is rightfully his - the patents to such
games from the aptly named Dillinger (David Warner), who filched them
to get to the top of a communications conglomerate.
    Aiding Flynn are Alan Bradley (Bruce Boxleitner), eccentric old
scientist Gibbs (Barnard Hughes) and his lissome aide Lora (Cindy
Morgan).
    With his frosty Bill Buckley smile, Dillinger is afraid of nobody.
He is awed only by the god of the circuitry universe, Master Control
Program, who looks like a pond of ice about to crack up and speaks in
the sepulchral tones of HAL, the computer in ''2001: A Space
Odyssey.''
    In the video game world, only TRON (Boxleitner again, now
transformed into a digital security program) defies this vengeful
deity.
    Dillinger has become the ultimately evil Sark, who loves nothing
better than sending his goonish ''grid bugs'' in pursuit of hapless
players and electrocuting them with what seems enough electricity to
carry Buffalo, N.Y., through one of its epic winters.
    It's good to know that in the face of such consummate,
computerized evil, the great American bust in the jaw still carries
some clout, as Flynn wins not only the girl, but presumably his video
game patents in the bargain.
    The ''state of the art'' computerized graphics make all this fun
to watch - for about half an hour. After that, even computer freaks
may want to head for the local arcade to cope with the real thing
instead of the chaotic but dramatically sterile video game that takes
up most of ''TRON.''

    ''TRON.'' Disney super-spectacular science-fiction epic about
being trapped inside a video game. The computerized graphics are
breathtaking to behold - until the crushing banality of the
comic-strip characters and situation begin to make one long for a game
of old-fashioned checkers. Rated PG. Two and a half stars.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #13
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, July 12, 1982 12:15AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #13
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:
                          SF Movies - TRON,
                      SF Books - Crystal Singer,
                           Spoiler - TRON
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday, July 12, 1982 12:15AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

All of the messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie TRON.  These might constitute mild spoilers for some readers.
They may not wish to read on.

Also, the last two messages (of the seven in this digest) contain some
exerpts from the dialog of the movie.  Once again, some readers may
wish to avoid these messages.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1982 20:44:49 EDT (Friday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: TRON

My Ratings: *** 1/2* for computer hackers or people who like video
                         games
            ** 1/2* for others

Summary: (PG) Denied access to a program he created, computer expert
   Alan Bradley seeks out Flynn, a video game expert and computer
   hacker to help outwit the powerful Master Control Program.  Flynn
   is carried inside an electronic world where computer programs are
   the alter-egos of their programmers.  Here, Flynn finds TRON, the
   program alter-ego of Alan, which is the only program that can
   overthrow the Master Control Program.

   (The above summary is borrowed, with changes, from the book cover
of TRON.)

   If you like video games, if you are a computer hacker, or if you
want an entertaining movie that's also suitable for children, go see
this film.  It's funny, has lots of action without lots of violence,
and even has a plot!
   The plot is relatively straightforward and is revealed early --- a
bright computer hacker named Flynn had developed several very
successful video games for a company called ENCOM.  A man named
Dillinger managed to steal copies of these game programs while
deleting Flynn's copies .  Claiming authorship himself, Dillinger was
rapidly promoted in the company.  As soon as he could, he had Flynn
fired.  However, deep within the computer system is the audit trail
that will prove Dillinger stole the programs.  Unfortunately, a Master
Control Program, written by Dillinger, has taken over the computer,
grows more powerful by finding and combining itself with other
programs, and, to protect itself and its creator, prevents access to
those audit trails.

   One protagonist, Alan Bradley, getting upset with the declining
response of the system as the MCP takes over, writes a program called
TRON.  TRON will examine all the programs in the system, killing those
that look useless, and, most importantly, is independent of the MCP
and capable of stopping the MCP.  The story of the film is the battle
between TRON and the powerful MCP, and between Flynn and Dillinger.

   An amusing aspect of the computer world is the view of the world as
seen by the programs.  They have a "religious" belief in unobservable
creators, known as "the users".  The Master Control Program is a
heretic, but is so powerful that it and its policing programs are
stamping out other programs that cling to the "superstition" of the
existence of "users".  The MCP says that all programs exist to serve
the MCP.

   The scenes switch between real people at ENCOM, and programs (who
look like their authors) in a wholly computer generated landscape
"inside" the computer.  Most of the "inside" graphics are high
resolution images of low resolution pictures, matted with the images
of people (programs).  They had some nice touches, like computer
generated "shadows" of the people as they move about the computer
world.

   The real world sets were good, too.  They used real computers and
real displays.  The film credits give thanks to Lawrence Livermore
Labs in the list of set locations.  The number of computer companies
who contributed was so long I didn't have time to read them all, but
included Atari, Mountain Computer, DEC, and various music and voice
synthesizer producing companies.

   I enjoyed the film.  It's lack of gratuitous sex or violence makes
it acceptable for young children, who may prove to be the ones who
like this film the most.  Consider seeing it.
 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1982 00:58-EDT
From: Andrew Scott Beals <BANDY at MIT-AI>
Subject: TRON


Although the plot is wanting, TRON is a good movie. (GREAT graphics,
and Mobeius's help didn't hurt, either.)

I thought the plot was wanting because I took the movie too seriously.
From a programmer's point of view, the plot is absurd, but from a
nieve user's point of view (my GF, for example), it's a great movie.

The personification of programs was absolutely silly.  They look like
their programmer (their ``user''), and they are intelligent enough to
interact in a reasonable manner to each other.

Programs communicating abstracts with each other?  Programs having
feelings?  Programs who believe in programmers treated like religous
fanatics?

Foo.

It would have been better if I hadn't been so picky.  (perhaps I
should have attended it in an altered state)

                                        - Andy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 2331-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: TRON


The plot is thin and childish.  The comp sci terms are sometimes
obscure.  There is little intellectual content as per AI and the
world.

I LOVED IT.  The graphix are stupendous, some of the imagry is superb,
the colors wondefull, etc etc etc...

Watching little programs get deleted (which they called 'de-resed',
where is that term from???) I started to feel guilty about all of the
little programs that I have created, used, and then thoughtlessly
disposed of.

Go see it!  TRON is probably one of a kind.  Because it is about life
in a computer, they can get away with graphix that look like computer
graphix rather than real world.  Movies like SW, ST, etc...  could
never get away with such graphix.  It is a new genre'.

Bravo Disney!

------------------------------

Date: Sun Jul 11 01:59:39 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: Tron review (non spoiler) : net.movies

Tron is a must-see film!  All advertising etc. that I saw before going
to Tron made me think I was in for a lousy, misguided film.  I was
pleasingly surprised.

Don't be confused about ads that say Tron is an adventure inside the
computer and indicate that it is aimed at the general public.  This is
not the case.  Tron is an entertaining fantasy combined with good
humour aimed right at the computer literate person.  This is perhaps
the first major film to have a large part of the humour aimed at a
certain, educated segment of the population.

Tron is not funny because it has many misconceptions about computers
that people can laugh at if they know the real world.  The authors of
Tron are (at least this is my impression) quite aware of the reality
of computing.  The jokes and fantasy are deliberately aimed at
computer people.  I went with a crowd of about 20 computer literate
people here in a University town.  There were other such people about
the theatre as well.  It was obvious who they were, because they were
the ones laughing at and enjoying the movie, while the others were
mostly confused.

Non computer literates will still enjoy the fine graphics and video
game action sequences, and some might appreciate the simple plot, but
a degree in CS adds to a person's enjoyment of this flick.

When you see Tron, remember it is a fantasy, and make NO attempt to
link what you see to what you know of computers in the real world.  I
think you'll have a good time.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: TRON

           Star Watch: Real Star of New Movie Is a Computer
                            By BOB THOMAS
                       Associated Press Writer

    HOLLYWOOD (AP) - Imagine a kid with a $20-million video game to
play with.
    Steve Lisberger is no kid - he turned 31 in April - but he was
virtually handed such an opportunity by Walt Disney Productions. The
wisdom of that move can be judged this month when ''TRON'' is released
throughout the country.
    The chief actors in ''TRON'' are Jeff Bridges, David Warner, Bruce
Boxleitner, Cindy Morgan and Bernard Hughes, but the real star may be
a computer.
    ''This is the first time that computer-generated images have been
used to a large extent in motion pictures,'' says director-writer
Lisberger. ''There was about a minute in 'Star Wars' and more in
Michael Crichton films ('Westworld' and 'Looker'), but the computer
images were not part of the story. They are in 'TRON.' ''
    The plot concerns a computer genius (Bridges) who suspects evil
doings by a corporate executive (Warner). During his investigation,
Bridges is zapped into another dimension and finds himself a player in
a gladiatorial video game. That's where Lisberger's technology comes
in.
    ''What we have created is film footage that has literally been
untouched by human hands,'' says the film maker, a slender man with a
well-cropped beard and eager manner.
    ''Images have been fed into the computer to create an alternate
dimension,''he said. ''It is a marriage of the new technology and
artistry. And, of course, artistry must be predominate.''
    ''TRON'' must be seen to be understood, at least by those without
scientific minds. While Lisberger was applying final touches to the
film, the studio showed a couple of reels depicting Bridges' battle
with the deadly video game. The footage is truly spectacular and is
sure to attract wide comment, even during a movie season loaded with
special effects.
    How did Steve Lisberger win the chance to play with his gargantuan
toy?
    ''I guess it started in 1977 when I was at my parents' house for
Christmas and saw the first video games,'' said Lisberger, who was
born in New York and reared in Cunningham Valley, Pa. ''I figured I'd
better get with this new technology before it got me.
    ''I saw video games as a crack in the wall of sterile technology.
They offered humor, excitement, good guys, bad guys, rules. The people
who played them were not techno-freaks. Kids found the games
approachable; they could master the technology.''
    While attending the School of the Boston Museum of Fine Arts in
1974, Lisberger had formed an animation studio and for three years
produced commercials and shorts for television. In 1974, he and
partner Donald Kushner moved to Los Angeles with a plum assignment: to
create a 90-minute cartoon ''Animalympics'' for NBC. When the United
States pulled out of the Moscow Olympics, the project was doomed.
    ''We had borrowed $300,000 on 'Animalympics' so we had to get
something else going,'' Lisberger said.
    That was ''TRON,'' which he and Kushner presented to Disney
production chief Tom Wilhite with a script, storyboards and an outline
of the technology. Wilhite demanded six months of tests to prove the
technology would work.
    ''I knew it would,'' Lisberger remarked. ''What I didn't know was
that I would have such a good time doing it.''

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 82 19:20:16-EDT (Sat)
From: Steve Platt <platt.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: TRON

I saw TRON last night.

It has been roughly 20 years since last I went to a Disney film.  When
I saw the last (either "Pinoccio" or "Flubber goes to Mars"), I was
too young to appreciate the subtleties of character development and
subplots.  I just liked watching the screen.

If you see TRON, go in a similar light.

---

TRON:  a fun movie, go to watch the video show.  Plot and characters,
when I watched for them, weren't worth it.  As a computer graphicist,
I had a blast watching the animated sequences -- some really great
stuff!

   Most amusing line: (paraphrased) "They've barracaded themselves
        in; bring out the logic probe!"

   Real world thing to watch for (about the only one):  Early in
        the film, the humanoids pass through a computer room.
        In the foreground, out of focus, you can glimpse a CRAY-1
        piece of office furniture.  (By the way, was this scene
        filmed at III?)

   What to do if you get bored:  try to guess which graphics/
        animation firms did which scenes and portions... (some of
        it was rather clear, from the techniques used.


   Rating:  Mentally: *
            Visually: ****
            Sound:  ** 1/2 (I think Carlos was rather restrained
                        or underutilized.)

        -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1982 23:15-EDT
From: James W. Williams <JIMW at MIT-AI>


This is my first message to sf-lovers, so I hope this works!

My sister recently read Crystal Singer and enjoyed it, but was
somewhat dissapointed in McCaffrey's musical accuracy. My sister
(who's BS is in Music Education) read to me some of the worst passages
and even my slight knowledge of music was enough that I could tell it
was wrong.

I just saw TRON and boy do I have mixed feelings on this one! In some
ways it is like a very poor man's "True Names" (Vernor Vinge).  There
is a civilization inside this vast computer network ruled by the MCP
(Master Control Program (Male Chauvenist Pig?)  who is the equivalent
of The Empire Strikes Back's Emporer. His Darth Vader is a character
named Sark. The good guys are TRON (Luke, wielding a Frisbee instead
of a light sabre), Yori (Leia), and Flynn (Han Solo). Every one but
Flynn is a computer program. Flynn is a human (a User) that has been
Digitized by the MCP. Users are the gods of this world, and those who
believe in them are religious fanatics. Flynn, of course, must stop
the MCP and right a few other wrongs, etc...
        The movie's worst problem is that too many idea's are
introduced and them not used. The computer graphics are very nice and
intercut surprizingly well with the backlit and conventional animation
used.  There are quite a few in jokes, and I suspect that the movie
may be somewhat incomprehensible to a totally computer-naive person.
        The score by Wendy Carlos is forgettable.
        Perhaps the best part of the movie is the dialog:  MCP to
Sark, after Sark's failure to do something:  "How would you like
working in a pocket calculator?"

Yori to TRON:  "There's not a circuit built that can hold you!"

You get the idea...  My appologies for the typos, I MUST learn the
Editor on this system!  Jim Williams Jim at Mit-ai

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 13-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #14
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1982 5:37PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #14
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 14 Jul 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:
      SF Books - From The Legend Of Biel & The Demolished Man &
     This Perfect Day & Capitol & Hot Sleep & The Demu Trilogy &
    A Canticle For Leibowitz & Lord Of Light & The Shrinking Man &
  The Dragon Masters & Heinlein & The Deceivers & ADA & LOCUS Poll,
            SF TV - HHGttG,  SF Movies - TRON & Megaforce,
      SF Music - Theme Songs,  SF Topics - Hard SF & Brain Use,
                    Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Jul 11 17:07:21 1982
From: decvax!harpo!druxv!jmb at Berkeley
Subject: Book reviews

I spotted the plea for other good science fiction while browsing
through SFL the other day.  Here are a few suggestions...

"From The Legend Of Biel" by Mary Staton (ACE)
   This novel has just about everything, from interstellar travel to
growing up to intelligent computers to psychology.  Prepare to think.

"The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester (POCKET)
   A classic Bester novel (written in 1951) and better than most new
'science fiction' available now.  A telepathic detective attempts to
track down a megalomaniac who killed in a society of telepaths - and
got away with it.

"This Perfect Day" by Ira Levin (Fawcett)
   Banish thoughts of Rosemary's Baby...  Here Levin describes a
future world controlled by a huge computer system for the good of all,
and what happens to those who rebel.

"Capitol"
"Hot Sleep" by Orson Scott Card (ACE)
   Although not masterpieces, these books have a lot of interesting
ideas.  The breakdown of galactic civilization (where have we heard
that before) and other nifty things.

"A Canticle For Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller, Jr. (Bantam)
   Another oldie (1959) written when 'after the bomb' books were
popular.  This is not your normal doomsday book, though.  Many
centuries after the war, the catholic church arises from the ashes...
and the cycle begins again.
"The Demu Trilogy" by F. M. Busby (Pocket/Timescape)
   Again, not a masterpiece, but enjoyable.  There is a race loose in
the galaxy who want to turn you into one of them - by cutting you
apart and putting you together they way they like it.  This is a
trilogy, and the first book, "Cage a Man", you may have heard of...

"Lord Of Light" by Roger Zelazny (Avon)
   My favorite Zelazny book.

"The Shrinking Man" by Richard Matheson (Berkeley)
   Another old one (1969) about a man who begins to shrink
(proportionally of course) and his adventures in the cruel world.  A
nice book to practise "suspension of disbelief".

"The Dragon Masters" by Jack Vance (ACE)
   An oldie (1962) about war between US and THEM, and we keep slaves
of theirs, and they keep slaves of ours, and who will win?

An aside...
   I am disappointed with mister Robert A. Heinlein.  It seems to me
that he has become a dirty old man titillating himself by writing dirty
science fiction books.  His earlier 'sex & sf' books are classics in
the genre ('Glory Road', 'Farnham's Freehold', 'Moon is a Harsh
Mistress').  However, starting about 'I Will Fear No Evil' he began
repeating himself and became boring.  I tired of 'Number of the Beast'
about half way through and never finished.  Has Bob run out of ideas?
Is this the only way he can sell books anymore, through sex and pieces
of other people's stories?

                        Jim Barton
                        BTL ...!druxs!druxv!jmb
                        30K49
                        11900 Pecos
                        Denver, Colorado 80303

------------------------------

Date: 6 July 1982 2107-EDT (Tuesday)
From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A
Subject: The Deceivers

Actually, the book is not that bad; the problem is if you approach it
expecting a story by Bester (I agree that the 'true successor' line is
misleading).  On the other hand, as a light story suitable for use
when recovering from Dick, depressed Ellison, Malzberg, or any other
downbeat author, it fills the bill.  Keep it around for those nights
when you are bored out of your mind, or too tired to concentrate on
anything substantial, or whatever.  Possibly because I read it at a
time when I needed a content-free story I found it entertaining (yes,
the CS is silly, but I've learned to expect that.  Only Hogan seems to
get it right).  Entertaining, yes.  Scientific, no.  The characters
are sort of beaver board (not quite cardboard, but not much deeper).
A Bester story?  Not really.  Keep it in the same pile as "Lucky Starr
and the Creature from the Black Lagoon" and you won't be disappointed;
you may (as I did) enjoy the silly thing.
                                        joe
[  This is in response to a message on The Deceivers distributed in
   volume 6, issue 2.  -- Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 82 2:14-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: out of the quagmire

Tired of the same old sh*t? Frustrated by SF authors unable to control
plot, demonstrate imagination with the English language, unable to
bring novels to reasonable conclusions?

Read ADA by Vladimir Nabokov.  As far as I'm concerned, this is the
best alternate-worlds SF I have read and easily among the 10 best SF
books I've read.  It is vastly superior to Dick's alternate worlds
books.  Some critics have denied ADA is SF.  Balderdash.

The reason this came to mind was that while I was at Westercon in
Phoenix over the July 4 weekend, Brunner happened to mention it in
much the same words, adding that it was ludicrous ADA didn't win the
Hugo/Nebula/whatever back in 1969.


------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1982 11:17:11-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: locus extracts

   Was that your typo, or did they actually credit WINDHAVEN only to
George R. R. Martin?!? (It was co-authored with Lisa Tuttle.)

[  This is in response to a message containing an excerpt from LOCUS
   distributed in volume 5, issue 75.  -- Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1982 1417-MDT
From: Michi Wada <WADA at SANDIA>
Subject: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

A friend told me HhGttG (English TV version) is running right now in
Buffalo.  Miami will start running HhGttG on July 25th.  Chicago has
bought it, but unknown as to when it will run.

Does anybody know if it is or will be running anywhere else?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 1923-EDT
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Starting Friday, 16 July on WMEB, Orono, Maine

The TV Guide listing for 10 PM this Friday is:

/12/ Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Comedy.  Debut: Arthur Dent is
whisked off the Earth by his alien friend Ford Prefect moments before
the planet's destruction.  Together they begin a series of
intergalactic adventures.

------------------------------

Date: Sun Jul 11 18:17:21 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, BBC-TV version


Don't Panic!  HHGTTG is now showing on PBS, as I reported earlier.  In
my area, times are 10:00 on Friday night and 11:30 on Saturday night.
Episode one was just shown.  Check your own listings for times.

The series stars Peter Jones as the Book and Simon Jones as Arthur
Dent (these are both from the radio cast) also, Mark Wing-Davy will
play Zephod Beeblebrox when that character appears, you'll remember
his voice too.  A new actor plays Ford Prefect, but he is fairly good.
The TV version has a lot of similar jokes to the radio one, but there
is new material, and of course visual effects.  I'll be collecting
this series on videotape for sure.

------------------------------

Date: 12 July 1982 15:08 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: HHGtG and TRON

1. HHGtG snuck into town this Saturday.  A 30-minute segment on PBS,
so presumably we are going to get the whole thing.  Special effects a
little above the Dr. Who level; an adequate Dent and a perfect
Prefect.

2. An excellent article on TRON and computer animation is in the
latest Smithsonian magazine.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1982 1932-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Megaforce


Megaforce - maybe one star (if you're in the proper mood)

Commander Ace Hunter leads an elite multinational fighting force,
armed with the best weapons modern technology can provide, in a fight
for truth, justice, and comic book heros.

The fact that Megaforce is a comic book brought to life on the big
screen is not a major problem for me - afterall, that's all Star Wars
or Raiders of the Lost Ark were, and I LOVED them.  But these latter
two movies had two qualities Megaforce lacks - a decent script and
believable special effects.

When Ace Hunter tells the enemy commander "the good guys always win in
the end," you do not moan - for by the time you reached that point in
the movie so many inane lines have been uttered that you have grown
accustomed to them.  But I still flinched when I witnessed "special
effects" that our school photography club could have improved upon.
The ONLY thing that prevented me from walking out of the theatre
(something I almost never do) was the acting.  The actors were simply
excellent at their parts, and I actually rated them superior to most
of the actors in Star Wars, et al.  However, they cannot redeem a
script that tries to be pulpish but ends up turning into pulp instead.
And no matter how hard you try, it is difficult getting into the movie
when so many bad special effect force you to suspend your belief.

It's too bad - they obviously spent a bit filming this movie (a lot of
action with vehicles that was not stock footage).  Although in this
movie climate it will probably bring a decent return to the backers,
it ultimately does a disservice to the industry and science fiction,
since claptrap like this will dilute the market for well crafted
fantasy and science fiction (as the grade B movies of the '50s did).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 21:52:10-PDT
From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley
Subject: Stealing theme songs

This is nothing new. NBC used the theme from RotLA for a while during
their major league baseball preview sequences, back when that movie
was getting lots of attention.  I also seem to remember hearing the
Star Wars theme used in another sports plug somewhere.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 13:40 PDT
From: kolling at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Speaking of Dragon's Egg,

when is there going to be another book, Dr. Forward?

Karen

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 8 July 1982  15:47-EDT
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: Real SF writers don't...

I believe it is safe to say that Forward has another book in the
offing. A first draft has been produced (which I have been fortunate
enough to read) and looks quite good. It is on the topic of
interstellar travel using light sail propulsion of a type that appears
quite feasible given a slightly more advanced state of technology than
our own (but only slightly - say within the next century). I believe
it is scheduled for serialization in Analog (?)  sometime in the fall,
but I am not sure. Perhaps someone else on the list who knows more
about this could say more.

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1982 12:45:47-PDT
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: Oh where, oh where, is the hard SF...

One more author to look for: David Brin.  As far as I know, he has one
novel out (Sundiver), and a number of novelettes in Analog.  Strong,
likeable, human characters (even the aliens!), combined with intricate
background material and faultless science.  Really good stuff.  If
only we could get him to write more...

Re: the sub-quark physics in "Voyage from Yesteryear".  This is a
mildly munged version of a real-world theory.  I believe it was
thought up by Abdus Saalam, recent co-Nobel winner.  In the real
world, the hypothetical particles are called rishons.
--- Jef

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1982 18:04-EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW at MIT-AI>
Subject: Neuropsychological folklore.

In this message I will recount several pieces of neuropsychological
folklore.  They have several features in common:

1.  They are widespread: almost everybody in our society has heard
    them.

2.  They are widely believed.

3.  They have a sensational nature.

4.  They are one of the following:
    a.  Blatantly false or fallacious
    b.  Nonsensical, that is, depending on words which are hard or
        impossible to define rigorously
    c.  Almost impossible to verify.

I am interested in tracking down the sources of these modern folk
beliefs.  I hope many contributors to this list will help me out by
telling me the earliest time they ever heard any of these.  Send your
responses to me (ACW@AI), not to SF-LOVERS.  Of course, other items of
folklore might be of general interest.

I.  People use their brains very inefficiently.  In fact, people use
    only a very small portion of their brains.  [Individual instances
    of this belief often give the exact percentage.]

II. People only /seem/ to forget things.  In fact, nothing is ever
    forgotten.  Every experience you have ever had since infancy is
    recorded in full detail somewhere in your brain.  You can retrieve
    these memories by hypnosis [or direct electrical stimulation of
    the cortex, or meditation, or scientology, or ...].

III.People sleep in order to dream.  Dreaming is the only essential
    element of sleep.

IV. Most people usually dream in black and white.  Some exceptional
    people usually dream in color.  Most people have an occasional
    color dream.

V.  Some people who have used LSD very occasionally experience
    "flashbacks", in which the symptoms of taking the drug recur
    months or years after the last use.

    ---Allan

------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1982 19:39 edt
From: Walters.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: PacAnimals

What's a thickskinned PacAnimal called? Why, a Pac-a-Derm (commonly
found in India and Pac-i-stan).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #15
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 2:12AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #15
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 15 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:
                          SF Movies - TRON,
                           Spoiler - TRON
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13-Jul-82  8:15:59 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Review of TRON

I enjoyed it. The plot was thin, so were the characters (but what can
you expect from programs that only exist a bits and bytes), but I
still found it a fun movie to watch. I liked the way some of the
dialogue went together, using computer hack terms and phrases, and it
is the only GOOD rotoscoping I have seen (i.e. where the effects were
worth the trouble; I DON'T like Bachshi's (sp?) stuff). The animation
was really superb, not like Walt's old style (which the Secret of NIMH
is; I really loved that one.), but very interestingly done.
Altogether, a fun movie to see at least once, especially with a bunch
of computer freak friends (as I did; there's a regular group of about
15 of us that have been going en masse to all the new flicks this
summer).

Cheryl

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1982 2237-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Tron


        We all went to see Tron last night. It was well worth the
trip. I would say that it would be most appropriate for people who
have used timesharing systems (to catch the computer jokes), or for
children (who can follow the rather simple action-packed plot). The
animation was vastly superior to anything I've seen in a new feature
length movie. (Much better than the last "revolutionary" technique
Bakshi used in LotR).

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 1742-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: TRON

Sigh! Walt Disney Studios has done it again--that is, if you remember
the Black Hole? The best I can say for TRON is that the computer
graphics are pretty. I don't think I can say anything else favorable.
The plot is about at the level of "The Hardy Boys fight Video Games".
Presumably one is being asked to see this fantasy as a modern-day
version of The Wizard of Oz, or maybe The Yellow Submarine. There is
something of the air of a one-line joke running through TRON, that
it's somehow infinitely amusing to think of programs as personified in
people dressed in costumes with day-glo stripes on them, and the
inside of a computer as a huge world of computer graphics. The outside
world is seen as composed of "users" (see, isn't it lots of fun) who
seem to be indistinguishable from programmers and who create these
internal electronic alter-egos. The big bad program is subverting all
the other programs, you see, and its creator, named Dillinger (a
descendant of John's, no doubt) has stolen someone else's video game
code and made megabucks with it (Hummm... maybe this would have been a
good western, with program "rustler's"...). The good guys (think
"Hardy Boys") need to get the goods on this low-down crook, and
anyway, the battle is fought both inside and outside the computer
until good wins out, vanquishing evil.

While TRON has much admirable computer graphics, there are lots of
rough spots to what you'd traditionally call special effects and some
of the ordinary props aren't well integrated (The heroine has one
scene in which the flat glass of her eyeglasses clearly shows they are
fake... A superimposed photographic image has a jittery boundary with
its computer generated background). These people clearly didn't get
the message--special effects won't SAVE your film if the other
ingredients aren't of the same quality.

TRON has all the earmarks of a film thought up by 50-year olds
contemplating what they think kids know about video games and
computers. The metaphor of a computer fantasy world is tainted by the
efforts to sprinkle authentic jargon around in ways that render the
movie a farce to adults.

Oh, yes... one other good thing I can say about the movie.  From the
reviews it has gotten in the papers, I'd say their millions spent on
promotion were worthwhile. I never would have dreamed that Wall Street
folks were so discerning, though. It was previewed for them and Walt
Disney stock dropped immediately.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 07:17:57-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jab at Berkeley
Subject: Tron

Graphics rates about 8.5 or 9 (on a scale of 1 - 10).  Plot rates -2
(on a scale of 1 - 10).

Some of the things that Disney put together (such as the "solar
sailer", or whatever the glider that flew on the laser was called!)
were very nice.  In fact, some of the elements captured are similar to
Walt Disney at his best.

A movie to *SEE*. Don't expect anything from the plot, and you won't
be disappointed.

        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1982 1128-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: TRON

As I was reading today's digest I noted down some things that were
mentioned to comment on, I've already forgotten who said what. For
those who don't know me, I was the lead computer graphicist at
triple-I, one of the four companies doing computer graphics for the
film.

The term "de-resed" (sic., in the script it was always spelled
"derezzed") comes from "resolution" from graphics (bandwidth, pixels
per image). As with most of the pseudo-jargon used in the film, this
term was corrupted in meaning, but basically rezzing up to high res is
good, derezzing is bad.

What "computer generated shadows" from the real actors? I can assure
you there was no such.

The scene with the good guys sneaking across the machine room (in the
real world) was filmed (I'm pretty sure) at LLL, along with the "laser
lab" stuff (which was Shiva) and the ("Now that's a BIG ...") door.
Triple-I has no CRAY, we did production on a Foonly F1. Side note: the
new firm Digital Productions does have a CRAY-1.

As for who did what, the "warrior formation" (first thing in the film)
and the BIT was done by Digital Effects Inc. The title sequence and
the real world/ electronic world transition sequence was by Robert
Able and Associates. The cycle race and most of the shots with the
"recos" and the tanks were all by MAGI-Synthevision.e Solar Sailer,
most of Sark's carrier and the MCP were done by Information
International Inc.

Apparently, TRON grossed $5 million in the first three days. The cost
was about $20.5 mil. By Hollywood logic, a film must make 200% of the
"negative cost" before it is considered profitable, hence $40 million.

One of my favorites was the "super" which read "Meanwhile, in the Real
world".

Greetings Programs!
-c

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1982 1944-PDT
From: Bill <YEAGER at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: TRON-MCP

Hmmm...Way back when - 1964 - when I worked for Burroughs on B5000s
and their various upgrades - They called their monitor the MCP, ie,
Master Control Program. I guess this is an historical comment.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 2:12AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following three messages in this digest discuss some plot details
and dialog in the movie TRON.  They may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1982 23:22-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: TRON

I have to reply to some of what BANDY at MIT-AI says about TRON.

I personally found the alter-ego approach intriguing. While not ALL of
my programs are alter-ego's of mine, and not all of the programs I
look at written by other programmers can be considered alter ego's of
them, there IS a correlation between a programmer and his programs. If
you care about a program, it is going to show. The less trivial a
program is, the more of a programmer is going to leak through. All
programmers can tell a good programmer from a bad, simply by his code,
I find that after working in a shop for a while, it is real easy to
decide who wrote what simply by looking at the style of the program.
There are programs and programmers that are solidy, and there are
programs and programmers that are flaky as all get out.

When I saw TRON, I found I was able to suspend disbelief throughout
almost ALL of the movie. The only thing that I found that I couldn't
but was the MCP. The visualization of that program was just too hokey
compared to the realism of the rest (taken in comparison). I was also
terribly disappointed that the lead female's part was relegated to
that of helper and sex object.

I can see programs interacting intelligently. MAybe not now, but a few
years from now, maybe. I couldn't, however, believe in inter-program
sexual relations (more on that later).

Overall, I was VERY impressed with the movie. I feel that it will do
as much for movies in this point in time as 2001 did back then,. It
isn't a perfect movie, but its a great movie. I suggest it as required
viewing in Computer Science 101. It affected me enough to make me sit
down and ponder before I turned on my Apple when I got home.

Now, a minor flame: I am getting VERY tired of obligatory sex in
movies. I recently saw Wolfen on HBO, and there was a scene in there
that, at least to me, was there for no other reason than to exist as a
sex scene. The relations between TRON and the female character was
similarly out of place, if milder.  Now, I don't care about the sex,
as long as it is used to forward the plot or have some other value,
but in most cases, it seems that the scenes being written in are there
simply for the sake of skin.

Am I the only one who notices this, or are there others who agree with
me?

chuck

------------------------------

Date: 12 July 1982  18:42-EDT (Monday)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J. Lecin) <LECIN at RUTGERS>
Subject: TRON (spoiler-warning-P?)


Well, this is NOT a review.

A comment:  the whole concept of "bringing down" the MCP, "crashing
the system" is going to start a whole new wave of adolescents from
California trying to crash whatever machine they can dial into.
Should be interesting to see how this "glorification" of such an act,
defeating a system's security, effects the next phase of kids getting
into computers...

Other comment:  it was definitely weird hearing SOME people laugh at
names like RAM, or Flynn's great logical conclusion:

        "Hmn, positive or negative only?  You must be a bit!"

What did everyone think of the "bit"?  It very cutely formed a nice,
symmetrical polyhedron when indicating YES, and some abstract oddness
when indicating NO...

        "Another mouth to feed..."  (YES YES YES YES...)

/Mijjil

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1635-PDT
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: TRON - Who's the REAL leader? *SPOILER*

TRON depicts Dillinger as a greedy evil bureaucrat and Flynn as the
genius hacker--the rightful leader of ENCOM.  (In fact, he seems to
have taken Dillinger's position at the conclusion of the film).  But
it was Dillinger who wrote MCP, a operating system capable of
independent thought and of overrrunning the machine whereas Flynn
wrote five (albeit slick) video games.  Now who's the REAL genius?
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

P.S. I saw in several entries about the "Secret of NIMH", the name
NIMH spelled in lower case like it was somebody's name.  NIMH is the
National Institutes of Mental Health, the NSF equivalent for
Psychiatry/ Psychology/Social Work, i.e. a source of funding using
government money and actual research labs in Bethesda Md.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #16
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 3:51AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #16
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 16 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:
             SF Books - John W. Campbell Memorial Award &
                Forward's Next Book & Crystal Singer,
               SF TV - HHGttG,  SF Music - Theme Songs,
             SF Topics - Hard SF & SF Ghetto & Brain Use,
             Humor - Brain Use & Genderless Video Games,
                  SF Movies - Star Trek & Star Wars,
                Spoiler - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 82 11:44-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: some awards

             Hoban Receives Award for ''Riddley Walker''

    LAWRENCE, Kan. (AP) - Russell Hoban, a writer of children's books
and science fiction, was named winner Saturday of the John W. Campbell
Memorial Award for the best science fiction novel of 1981.
    Hoban, an American who lives in London, was cited for his novel
''Riddley Walker'' about life in a futuristic world 2,000 years after
a nuclear holocaust.
    Neil Barron of Vista, Calif., a book company representative and
former librarian, was named the 1982 winner of the Pilgrim Award for
outstanding scholarship in science fiction. He was cited for his
contributions to science fiction bibliography and criticism.
    The awards were presented at the annual meeting of the Science
Fiction Research Association held in conjunction with the University
of Kansas Intensive English Institute of the Teaching of Science
Fiction.
    The Campbell award is named for the late John W. Campbell, who was
editor of Astounding Science Fiction and its successor, Analog, for 34
years. The Pilgrim Award is sponsored by the research association.

------------------------------

Date: 14 July 1982 1001-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: Bob Forward's next book

I believe that it will be serialized in Analog starting in December,
or maybe he said November.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 10:42:57-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: errors in CRYSTAL SINGER

   Sigh. I suppose I'll have to go read the foolish thing now, and I
don't have full access to the MITSFS or the inclination to buy another
book.
   Anne McCaffrey was an opera singer and director in Boston back when
anybody who tried to do opera in Boston was considered crazy (i.e.,
even before Sarah Caldwell). She may not have the academic or
technological background (I know she was a Cliffie but not her major
(don't think it was music)) but she probably has a lot more practical
experience than any newly-minted BS (BS?!? in music?!?!? (yes, I know
that probably means from MIT; my point stands)).
   Now if you confined your disparagements to her knowledge of, say,
the physics of music, that might be more believable.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 07:40:59-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley
Subject: Crystal Singer

I finished Crystal Singer not to long ago (about a week), and I didn't
notice the parallel in plot line. But it's been a LONG time since I
looked at Dragon<gort> or The Ship Who Sang. Once it was pointed out,
yes, I have to admit that it's there. I think that the plot is more
along the lines of `adapting to a new environment,' as opposed to
`paying back one's dues' or `achieving in one's profession.' I guess
its all in how you look at it.

        mike

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1982 05:37-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Villiers in Asimov/Panshin

Contrary to someone's comment in SFL V7#1, the Villiers who gets
killed in Asimov's story "The Dying Night" has the first name Romero,
so there is no conflict with Panshin's character Anthony Villiers.  I
don't have a copy of the Panshin right here, so I can't check the
dates... the Asimov story first appeared in F&SF in July '56.

[ This message is in reference the contribution that originally
  referenced a message in volume 5, issue 63, describing Anthony
  Villiers as a character in a series by Alexei Panshin.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 0852-PDT
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)
Subject: HHGttG in St. Louis

For anybody interested, Hitchhiker[etc] is carried in the St. Louis
area and on related cable systems at 11 PM Sunday nights on KETC
(Channel 9). An obvious plot to reduce Monday-morning productivity
below its already-low level by depriving us poor addicts of sleep...

Will

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1982 09:38:56-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: hard sf suggestions

   One of the problems with hard SF is that it can become dated so
easily.  Consider (since it's not on your list) the Venus Equilateral
stories of George O. Smith, harking back (as a recent reviewer put it)
to when precision adjusting tools for electronics included hammers,
12" wrenches, and welding torches.
   You can also try digging 1940's and 50's issues of ASTOUNDING out
of your local library, or out of the MITSFS if you're in Boston, or
the Ackerman collection if you're in LA, or . . . . The market for and
interest in hard SF has died off (although that same reviewer notes
that it was never very coherent---in the 40's, for instance, Hubbard
and van Vogt were central figures \in/ \ASTOUNDING/!). Other George O.
Smith is tolerable.

------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1982 05:34-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Authors who aren't SF-authors

I heard on the radio the other day that Indianapolis was holding a
giant Vonnegut festival, and the guest-of-honor refused to attend.
He's supposed to have said something like "seems like the kind of
thing you do when an author is dead...".

The festival also honored Kurt Vonnegut (the non-SF-author) 's parent
and grandparent, both of which were architects who contributed to Indy
in some noticeable fashion.

I guess SF isn't the only thing that Vonnegut denies... seems to me
he's picked on Hoosiers in at least one of his books.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1982 2148-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Movie songs, etc.

        During the All Star game last summer, the soundtrack for "Star
Trek - The Motion Picture" was used.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 07/09/82 11:57:33
From: JGA@MIT-MC
Subject: 10% of brain

When someone says to you (in a serious manner), "Did you know that the
average person only uses 10% of their brain?", the correct response is
to look them straight in the eye, and say (in an even more serious
tone of voice):

"Of course.  The other 90% is the operating system."

Practice this in front of the mirror a couple of times first - one
little giggle can destroy all credibility.

John.

------------------------------

Date: 11 July 1982 01:00-EDT
From: Andrew Scott Beals <BANDY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Genderless Video Games

Q: How do PacMan games communicate with each other?
A: In PacKets.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 82 1:28:10-EDT (Thu)
From: the Boris <craig.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Trek and Star Wars.

        Why was Star Trek I bad, Star Trek II OK, but Star Wars great?
Star Trek started as  a TV series.   The secret of a  TV series is  to
establish a Formula which allows  entertaining fare to be produced  by
technically competent but less than  inspired people.  Trek has a  (by
now) well developed universe, set of characters, and a good notion  of
what makes a  good story.   If the formula  is followed,  entertaining
fare will result.  Star wars, on the other hand, was made by Lucas.

        Star Trek  I  was very,  very,  bad because  it  violated  the
formula.  It dragged - Trek was built on pace and action.  It violated
character - at the start of the  movie, Kirk acted like a jerk.   Kirk
is the eternal Hero, and he  makes a very poor anti-hero.  Also,  they
were recycling  a past  script -  no one  really wanted  to see  NOMAD
again.  Finally, the film just wasn't  very well made.  The Earth  was
seconds from destruction, and  the director STILL  couldn't get us  us
the slightest bit upset or apprehensive.  When I saw the movie, I paid
$1.50 at  the Campus  movie house,  and didn't  feel I  was getting  a
particularly good deal.

        Star Trek II was a reasonable film.  Now don't get me wrong  -
I'm not complaining.  Most Science Fiction films are Horrid (e.g.  The
Thing, The Black Hole, etc.).  Trek  II worked, and I look forward  to
shelling out $4 ($6? $10? $100 if the economy ...)  every year or  two
to see another Trek Episode.  The movie worked because it followed the
Trek formula: Bad guys get the upper hand.  Kirk outsmarts them.  Good
guys win.  And, along the way, we see the characters being people, not
cardboard imitations.  Of course, there  was some sloppy film  making.
I won't go into the technical things - space battles, scale, and  that
sort of  stuff, or  into  dramatic things  -  Scotty carrying  a  dead
crewman to the bridge. Sure, it could have been better.  But the movie
followed the Trek  formula faithfully, and  was technically  competent
enough to not lose us.  It gave us what we expected.

        Star Wars was  a great  film.  There  is only  one reason  for
this:  George  Lucas  is a  genius.   No formula  can  substitute  for
excellence.  Lucas is not a literary marvel; he could have stolen  the
plot out of  any of (all  of?)  a  hundred different books.   He is  a
master of  film.  The  movie moves:   it is  full of  action, and  the
characters pop into  focus instantly.   How long  does it  take us  to
recognize Darth Vadar  as an  Evil Heavy?   All of  two seconds?   And
every time we  turn around  there is something  unexpected or  somehow
marvelous:  Sand-crawlers?  Taverns with 50,000 flavors of aliens? THE
DEATH STAR! Finally, Star  Wars was well  edited - it  has no time  to
waste on gratuitous  anything.  Lucas  would have  cut the  gratuitous
shot of Scotty carrying the dead crewman onto the bridge.  The  result
is a movie which demands,  gets, and rewards your constant,  undivided
attention.

        I look forward to more  Star Trek movies.  The formula  works.
As long as competent  people follow the formula,  and don't try to  be
geniuses when  they're  not,  we  will  continue  to  get  reasonable,
watchable films that don't leave us feeling cheated.  But don't expect
another Star Wars, because you won't get it - genius is, after all,  a
rare commodity.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 05:18:43-PDT
From: harpo!floyd!rjs at Berkeley
Subject: Roddenberry and Star Trek In V6 #1 of SF-LOVERS Digest

George Otto asked about the involvement of Gene Roddenberry in Star
Trek: The Wrath of Khan.  At Balticon 13 (April '82), prior to a
showing of Star Wreck: The Commotion Picture the creator of this video
tape editing spoof showed some slides of the then upcoming ST:TWoK.
During this preview, she said that Roddenberry's only involvement with
ST:TWoK was to receive a royalty.  He did, however, reserve the right
to pull his name from the movie if he didn't approve of the final
product.  Thus his appearance as Executive Consultant in the credits
simply indicates his approval of the movie as a whole.

Marcia Snyder / rjs (harpo!floyd!rjs)

------------------------------

Date: 14 July 1982 21:47-EDT
From: Phillip C. Reed <PCR at MIT-MC>
Subject: Star Trek - TWOK Non-Spoiler

        I was talking with some friends about the Koborashi Maru (sp?)
test, and Kirk's "cheating", when somebody pointed out that based on
the evidence, Kirk must have gotten into Star Fleet Academy on a
football scholarship.
                                        ...phil

------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 3:51AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

All of the remaining messages in this digest discuss some plot details
in the movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some
readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 15:35:31-PDT
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!idis!mi-cec!rwg at Berkeley
Subject: Re: Chekov in ST2 (slight spoiler - haven't you seen it YET?)

          It's been pointed out already that the novel fills in many of
the movie's gaps: Chekov had to go outside because beaming was
impossible inside (the atmospheric conditions were such that it would
be "iffy" even in the open).  When Chekov sees Khan's people, he
indeed screams to be beamed up, but the ship gets little more than
static.
        Besides, if Reliant's crew heard Chekov shout "Beam us up,
Enterprise!," they may have been too confused to act in time (yes,
picky picky picky...).

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 8 July 1982  15:32-EDT
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING - comment on ST-II TWOK

I suggest that you read the novel ST-II for an answer for this and
other apparent inconsistencies. The reason given in the book is that
the sand and turbulence in the atmosphere of Ceti Alpha (or Alpha
Ceti) V made transporter use marginal even in the open, and definitely
impossible from within a closed structure.

(sorry if this has already been answered earlier)

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 8 July 1982  15:42-EDT
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: STII:TWOK

Again, you should take a look at the novel version. In the novel, the
bridge crew is decimated so one additional, experienced albeit injured
officer, is a great help. Also, I believe Chekov is explicitly
referred to as a Commander in the book.

--vaf
------------------------------

Date: 9 July 1982 00:18-EDT
From: "James Lewis Bean, Jr." <BEAN at MIT-MC>
Subject: Tears in Mr. Saavik's eyes

I saw one at the funeral..

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #17
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 4:23AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #17
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 17 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
                       SF Books - Bestsellers,
     SF Movies - Poltergeist & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan &
      The Sword and the Sorcerer & The Thing & TRON & Revenues,
                Random Topics - Movies and Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 0228-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Science Fiction books which are Best Sellers (hardcover)

                    Best Selling Books (Hardcover)
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    The listings below are based on computer-processed sales figures
from 1,600 bookstores in every region of the United States.

                                                     This Last  Weeks
                                                     Week Week On List

THE PARSIFAL MOSAIC, by Robert Ludlum.                  1    1    18
(Random House, $15.95.)  Through many exploits
and hairbreadth escapes, Michael Havelock saves
the world from nuclear extinction.

THE ONE TREE, by Stephen R. Donaldson.                  5    6    12
(Ballantine-Del Rey, $14.50.) Book Two in the
science fiction series, ''The Second Chronicles
of Thomas Covenant.''

TWICE SHY, by Dick Francis. (Putnam's $13.95.)          7   13    14
A greedy gang at large in the world of horse
racing and computer programming.

FRIDAY, by Robert A. Heinlein. (Holt,                   8   12     4
Rinehart & Winston, $14.95) Adventures on Earth
of an artificial person, a creature of genetic
engineering, in the service of a Boss in outer space.

FOR SPECIAL SERVICES, by John Gardner                   9    7     9
(Coward, McCann & Geoghegan, $9.95) James Bond
against his old enemy SPECTRE.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 0227-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Science Fiction books which are Best Sellers (paperback)


                    Best Selling Books (Paperback)
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

MASS MARKET
    Mass-market paperbacks are softcover books sold at newsstands,
variety stores and supermarkets, as well as in bookstores. This
listing is based on computer-processed reports from bookstores and
representative wholesalers with more than 40,000 outlets across the
United States.

    3. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, by William Kotzwinkle. (Berkley,
$2.95.) Novelization of the current film.
    4. STAR TREK: The Wrath of Khan, by Vonda N. McIntyre. (Pocket,
$2.50.) Novelization of the current space-adventure film.
    9. LICENSE RENEWED, by John Gardner. (Berkley, $2.95) James Bond
against a mad nuclear physicist: fiction.
    13. THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST, by Robert Heinlein. (Fawcett, $3.95)
A journey through alternate universes: science fiction.

TRADE
    Trade paperbacks are softcover book usually sold in bookstores
and at an average prices higher than mass-market paperbacks. This
listing is based on computer-processed reports from 1,600 bookstores
in every region of the United States.

    13. GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE, by Frank Herbert. (Berkley, $6.95.)
Fourth novel in the series about the planet Dune.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Capsule Reviews

    Poltergeist. Producer Steven Spielberg delivers the thriller that
the ''Amityville Horror'' dreamed of being. It begins in a comfortable
American suburb, where a happy family is subjected to a series of
weird events that lead up to terrifying spirits taking total
possession of their house. The special effects are impeccable and the
story well done. With Craig T. Nelson, Jobeth Williams, Beatrice
Straight, Dominque Dunne, Oliver Robins and Heather O'Rourke. Rated
PG. 3 stars.
    Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - The movie they should have made
the first time. While it doesn't slight the special effects of the
earlier edition, the emphasis is back where it belongs - on quality of
character, and twists and turns of plot. The issues - love, loyalty,
innocence, aging, reason and emotion - are both timely and timeless.
With Ricardo Montalban, William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, DeForest
Kelly, Paul Winfield and newcomer Kirstie Alley. Rated PG.  3 1/2
stars.
    The Sword and the Sorcerer - Another medieval swashbuckler that
looks great but lacks real characters for the audience to care about.
Still, Kathleen Beller makes an intelligent heroine, and the makeup is
triumphantly good. Rated R. 2 1/2 stars.
    The Thing. John Carpenter's new thriller is about a group of
scientists that sets out for the Antarctic to gather data about the
region, but instead is confronted by a ''thing'' that threatens the
existence of mankind. Kurt Russell stars. Rated R. 2 1/2 stars.
    Tron. Jeff Bridges plays Flynn, a video game virtuoso, who
suspects ENCOM, a huge communications conglomerate for which he works,
of stealing some of his video game programs. With Bruce Boxleitner,
David Warner, Barnard Hughes and Cindy Morgan. Rated PG. 4 stars.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 1427-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: 11 Top-Grossing Films (week ending June 30) (source: Variety)

Ranks:  Last-week  =>This week
   Film Name (Rank Change + = up 1, - = down 1)
     Total to Date
        Weeks on Chart

1 => 1.  E T - The Extra-Terrestrial       $17,701,678 ( 3 weeks)
5 => 2.  Firefox (+++)                     $ 5,570,778 ( 2 weeks)
2 => 3.  Rocky III (-)                     $21,383,598 ( 5 weeks)
4 => 4.  Poltergeist                       $11,868,727 ( 4 weeks)
     5.  Blade Runner                      $ 2,056,200 ( 1 week)
3 => 6.  Star Trek II-Wrath of Khan (---)  $14,255,809 ( 4 weeks)
6 => 7.  Annie (-)                         $ 5,755,672 ( 6 weeks)
     8.  The Thing                         $ 1,253,900 ( 1 week)
8 => 9.  Author Author (-)                 $ 1,635,872 ( 2 weeks)
9 =>10.  Bambi (-)                         $ 3,623,784 (14 weeks)
    11.  Megaforce                         $   598,400 ( 1 week)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Summer Movies

                          By ALJEAN HARMETZ
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    HOLLYWOOD - The summer is not half-over, but it is already
apparent which movie will be the summer's big box-office winner. To
the accompaniment of Fourth of July firecrackers, Steven Spielberg's
fantasy about a lonely visitor from outer space, ''E.T. - the
Extra-Terrestrial,'' has overtaken the third installment of Sylvester
Stallone's saga about a boxer, ''Rocky III.''
    After 39 days in theaters, United Artists' ''Rocky III'' has
earned $72.5 million. After 25 days, Universal's ''E.T.'' has earned
$87 million. Of this, $17,254,946 million was taken in during the
Fourth of July weekend, the largest four-day gross in Hollywood
history.
    ''We have broken a record every day since we established the
opening 10-day record against 'Superman II' two weeks ago,'' Gordon
Armstrong, vice president for advertising at Universal, said. ''We'll
be over $100 million by next Saturday.''
    Paramount's ''Star Trek II - the Wrath of Khan'' is in third
place, with nearly $58 million in 32 days. Universal's ''Conan the
Barbarian,'' with $39 million, and M-G-M- U.A.'s ''Poltergeist,'' with
$37.5 million, are essentially in a tie for fourth.
    A lot of things can happen down the backstretch, and those
positions will not necessarily stay the same for the rest of the race.
''Conan,'' which opened in the middle of May, has taken in as much
money as it is likely to make, and ''Poltergeist'' is still earning
several million dollars a week.
    In the long run, what counts is what Hollywood calls ''legs'' -
the ability to attract audiences week after week. Last July, Orion's
''Arthur'' opened weakly, but the movie began to build and was still
playing successfully at Christmas. Columbia's ''Annie'' has seemed a
disappointment because it cost $42 million and was the center of a
barrage of articles predicting immediate and gigantic box-office
success, which it did not have. But ''Annie'' has earned $25.5
million, its audience is not falling away, and it may well end up the
summer in fourth or fifth place.
    Some of the losers are also obvious. ''The Thing,'' ''Grease II,''
''Hanky Panky,'' ''Megaforce'' and ''Author! Author!'' are among them.
''The Sword and the Sorcerer'' is not. ''The Sword and the Sorcerer,''
a low-budget independent movie from Group 1 Films, has surprisingly
earned nearly $28 million.
    Most of the movies for which the major studios had the highest
hopes have already opened. If a studio expects a film to be a
blockbuster, it will put it in theaters in June to give it as much
summer playing time as possible.
    There are exceptions, and Disney's ''TRON'' is one. ''TRON,''
which takes place inside a computer and is, thus, the first movie to
compete directly with the video games that have siphoned off much of
Hollywood's teen-age audience, was simply not finished in time.
''TRON'' will open Friday.
    Universal's film version of ''The Best Little Whorehouse in
Texas'' also was not finished in time to open in June; it will have
its premiere July 16.
    Neither ''TRON'' nor ''The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas'' is a
guaranteed success, of course - simply movies that Disney and
Universal think have a chance of being blockbusters.
    ''When you make a commitment to release a film far far in advance,
who knows what the tone of the marketplace is going to be?'' David
Weitzner, executive vice president of advertising at Universal, asked.
''Who knew the audience would take a squishy little person from outer
space to its heart?''
    Universal is distributing ''E.T.'' and ''The Thing.'' Weitzner
might have added, ''Who could have guessed the audience would recoil
from the gruesome 'Thing' when it had been fascinated by the gruesome
'Alien'?''
    And there is bound to be one unexpected major-studio success from
among the July and August movies to match ''The Sword and the
Sorcerer.'' Perhaps Randal Kleiser's ''Summer Lovers'' will equal his
''Blue Lagoon'' of two summers ago, or ''Young Doctors in Love,'' a
spoof of soap operas starring soap-opera actors, will bring the
immense soap-opera audience into theaters.
    ''But one thing is certain,'' Irv Ivers, vice president of
marketing at 20th Century-Fox, said, ''there's a new wave of movies
coming.''

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Movies and Video Games

                          By ALJEAN HARMETZ
                   c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service

    HOLLYWOOD - Hollywood is cashing in on the video game boom.
    In 1981, game cartridges that can be plugged into home television
sets and coin-operated arcade games were an $8 billion business, while
audiences paid less than $3 billion at U.S. movie theater box offices.
In the last few weeks, nearly every movie studio has announced a joint
venture or new division meant to siphon off some of those impressive
video game revenues.
    Each studio is aiming its laser guns and space ships down a
different path, but all share at least one goal - replacing games
titled ''Pac-Man,'' '' Defender,'' ''Berzerk'' and ''Frogger'' with
games called ''Jaws,'' ''9 to 5,'' ''Star Wars'' and ''Star Trek.''
    Currently, the home video games that sell best are home versions
of successful arcade games. The studios believe that a presold movie
title - like ''The Empire Strikes Back'' or ''King Kong'' - will be
equally enticing to the consumer.
    All the studios will be starting a long way behind Warner
Communications Inc., parent of the movie-producing Warner Bros. Inc.
Revenues for Warner Communication's Atari, which has more than 75
percent of the home video game market, jumped from $238 million in
1979 to more than $1.2 billion in 1981.
    None of the other studios are planning to create hardware to
compete with Mattel Inc.'s Intellivision or Atari's home video game.
The failure of the RCA Corporation's videodisk system to appeal to
large numbers of buyers has made movie studios cautious about leaping
into new kinds of hardware. But most of them intend to do more than
just license their movies to the new medium.
    In the simplest studio involvement, Lucasfilm has licensed
''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' to Atari for a chase-through-the-jungle
home video game and licensed ''The Empire Strikes Back'' to Parker
Brothers for a home video game based on the battle on the ice planet
in that movie.
    Walt Disney Productions has gone one step beyond and orchestrated
the licensing of ''TRON,'' a movie about a deadly battle inside a
computer, so that the Bally arcade game will be available when the
movie is released July 9. More than 800 machines have already been
shipped, and promotional contests are being held in the Bally
Manufacturing Corporation's Aladdin's Castle arcades, with national
finals to be held in New York early in July to coincide with the
release of the movie. The home versions of ''TRON'' - ''Maze-a-TRON''
and ''TRON Deadly DISCS'' - will be marketed by Mattel's Intellivision
in the fall.
    The Paramount Pictures Corp. is moving considerably further into
the video game business. Paramount, a division of Gulf and Western
Industries, owns Sega, one of the leading manufacturers of arcade
games. Sega was transferred from G.&W.'s manufacturing division to
Paramount last December. Through Sega, Paramount is moving into the
home video game business both as a producer and a distributor.
    Sega is the designer and distributor of the newest No. 1 arcade
game, ''Zaxxon,'' a devilishly difficult, almost three-
 dimensional attack game. Paramount has spent $150,000 to create
a 30-second commercial for ''Zaxxon,'' the first television commercial
urging audiences into an arcade to play a game. There is a second,
equally important reason for the commercial. Paramount intends to
build Sega into a brand name - to make a star of Sega for the home
video game market.
    ''We're lucky we have the No. 1 arcade game to lead our
introduction,'' said Barry Diller, chairman of Paramount. ''It's just
like the No. 1 movie. You don't have it for a long time but it's great
to have at the particular moment you are entering a field.''
    Home video game cartridges, which sell from $22 to $35, have
traditionally been marketed through toy stores. The 20th Century-Fox
Film Corp. will be relying primarily on mass merchandisers such as the
K Mart Corp., while Paramount is currently setting up distribution in
the record and video stores that sell cassettes of its movies.
    Since it takes a minimum of six months after licensing to create
the programmable chip for a home game, the first ''Star Trek'' game
will not be available until 1983. In order to enter the market
immediately, Sega has formed a joint venture with Coleco Industries
and will begin shipping the home version of the successful arcade game
''Donkey Kong'' early in July.
    And 20th Century-Fox is also preparing to ship home video games
this summer. According to Joseph LaBonte, president of Fox, a unit,
Fox Video Games, will ship four games in late July that are compatible
only with Atari game units. Unlike Paramount, Fox does not own an
electronic game manufacturer and will not manufacture arcade games,
although it will license its movies to arcade manufacturers.
    Fox has formed a joint venture with Sirius, a large manufacturer
of computer games. None of the first few games will be based on
movies, but later offerings are now being developed from
''Megaforce,'' ''9 to 5'' and ''Porky's.''
    Lucasfilm is entering the video game field in a somewhat different
fashion. In a joint venture with Atari, Lucasfilm will be using its
expertise in digital sound and computer graphics to create and program
both arcade and home games, which Atari will then market.
    Everyone agrees that the home video game market will have
explosive growth. Game machines are now hooked up to television sets
in just eight million American homes, less than 10 percent of the
total.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #18
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, July 18, 1982 12:27AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #18
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 18 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
             SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
               SF TV - Star Trek II: The Roots of Khan,
              Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sunday, July 18, 1982 12:27AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The messages in this digest discuss some plot details in both the
movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some readers may
not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 16 Jul 1982 09:12-PDT
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Who was that doomed ship, anyway?

        My friend the SF reader, sometime fan, and all-round well-read
fellow, had a problem with Star Trek II.  The "Toborashi Maru", or
whatever, rang his chimes.  He swears he's heard that name before.  At
first he thought it was the ship in "Lord Jim", but no such luck.
Does anyone out there read widely enough to remember where this ship
has been seen before?  We may have a Tuckerism here...

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1982 17:55:43 EDT (Friday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Spock's death

   The following, not surprising, item appeared in the Friday, July 9
issue of the Boston Globe.

   "Although Mr. Spock is killed off in the current block-buster
movie, 'Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan,' it's hard to keep a good
Vulcan down, and so Spock, played by Leonard Nimoy, may miraculously
be resurrected in the next Star Trek sequel.  Gene Roddenberry, who
created the original TV Star Trek, said Spock was killed in the
current film because Nimoy was tired of the role, but fans 'put so
much pressure on Paramount and Nimoy, Leonard has changed his mind'
and has agreed to play Spock again."

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1982 0152-PDT
From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: spock lives!?

Channel 2 in the SF bay area just finished a two hour analysis/review
of TWOK.  They had many clips and interviews with all the principals.
There seemed to be complete agreement that Spock was not really dead
and would surface in the next movie.  The clearest statement was by
DeForest Kelley who said that Spock had had a mind meld with McCoy
before entering the chamber and that that tied directly with the
"remember" and the final line of McCoy about Spock not being dead
while we remembered him, etc.  So it would appear that the theories
about Spocks mind living in McCoy for awhile are correct.

Peter

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1982 at 0301-PDT
From: dan at SRI-TSC
Reply-to: dan at SRI-TSC
Subject: "Star Trek: The Roots of Khan" (partial Star Trek II SPOILER)

Channel 2, a local San Francisco Bay Area station, put on a 2 hour
special at midnight tonight about "Star Trek: The Roots of Khan".  It
was billed as a "Creature Feature Presentation", with the usual
narrator for the midnight horror-flick "Creature Feature".  It
contained interviews with Nimoy, Montelban, DeForest Kelley, Shatner,
and two guys from Industrial Light and Magic, as well as shots from
both ST movies, and the entire "Space Seed" episode, uncut.  It
verified several ideas expressed in SF-Lovers about Spock's Re-birth,
as well as a few new tidbits, which I will try to relate.  Please
forgive misspellings (especially names) and Ramble-mode-on -- it's
past my bedtime.  <<Moderator, feel free to edit...>>

It was great to see Space Seed again.  It was pretty much as I
remembered it, except everyone looked so young in comparison to the
movie clips they showed alongside it.  One thing I noticed was that
Khan and his people were not the products of genetic engineering, but
rather of "selective breeding" (Spock mentioned this, and so did Kirk
and Khan).  Also, Khan was "absolute ruler of 1/4 your planet" (Spock)
before they fled to find a new world to conquer.

The interview with Montelban was interesting, but not too revealing.
It was interesting that he felt the emotional scenes were the easiest
to play.  "Any actor with any talent can play those scenes".  The
hardest ones, according to him, were the expositive ones, like the
ones he does on Fantasy Island.  It's hard to say all those factual
lines and not put your audience to sleep.  Later on in the show,
Shatner said "The hardest scenes were the ones with great emotion in
them"...  Guess I'm not the only one who thinks Shatner is a lousy
actor!

When DeForest Kelley was asked about Spock's death, he mentioned how
Spock gave him the mind-meld just before going into the radiation
chamber, and how at the funeral Bones said "He is not forgotten, as
long as we remember him" (or whatever the exact quote is).  Kelley
stressed the relationship of those two lines, and their importance in
bringing Spock back (but you heard it first in SF-Lovers!).

Nimoy mentioned that he had been approached by Paramount to do the
next movie.  And he also reminded the idiot interviewer (who kept
insisting "but Spock's dead.  I SAW him die.") that Spock's body is
lying on a planet formed by the Genesis Effect, which is still active
and effecting changes on his body.  When was asked if they might bring
Spock back by having the next movie take place before his death, he
commented "that's possible, but I'm not getting any younger".  All in
all, though nobody came out and said it, they were all trying VERY
hard (and not at all subtly) to give the message that Spock will be
back.  (It almost seemed that they were worried nobody would figure
that out by themselves, and everyone boycott the sequel).

The interview with the two guys from Industrial Light and Magic was
the most interesting (sorry I can't remember their names.  It's
late...).  Two things I hadn't heard before: The scene of the Genesis
Effect creating the planet from a Nebulae in the end was filmed in the
Cow Palace in San Francisco, because they needed a big area to set off
some pyrotechnics.  The cameras were mounted in the middle of the
arena pointed up toward the detonations, to get a "zero gee" effect.
Also, the scene in the end, of Spock's coffin sitting among the
bushes, was filmed in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, because they
were in a hurry and needed a lush spot that was nearby (the ILM studio
is in San Raphael).

According to the interviewer, George Takai refused to be in ST:TWOK
unless they showed Sulu being more than just someone sitting on the
bridge.  So they filmed him in a few other scenes, developing his
character more, then cut all of the scenes except the bridge ones,
during editing!

Nimoy mentioned that one of the reasons the special effects were so
much better in TWOK was that in the first movie, they were way behind
schedule, so had to rush the SFX.  But in TWOK they had much more
time.  Hmm...

One final note: without his makeup on, Bones (DeForest Kelley) looked
OLD.  MUCH older than everyone else.  Hope they don't take too long
before starting the next ST movie (what a terrible thing to say)...

        Good Night!
        Dan@sri-tsc (Dan Chernikoff)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 82 0:27:39-EDT (Tue)
From: Craig.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: Star Trek III ????

[Start Flame Mode]

Are they really thinking of calling the movie "the search for Spock?"
I'll be upset!!!  Do you know how long I've been waiting to see that
pointy-eared smart-ass get his?  Doesn't like humans, does he?  Thinks
we're irrational creatures incapable of logical, rational action, does
he?  Well, I sure as hell wouldn't have volunteered to walk into a
radiation area.  Green-blooded snob!  I'm glad he's dead.

My only disappointment with the movie is that Chekhov lived.  My
favorite scene in the series was the "Empire" episode, where Chekhov
was stuffed into the torture chamber.  Maybe I don't like Russians or
something, but I enjoyed that.

How about this for the next movie:  Star Trek III: The Death of
Everyone.  Kill 'em all off.  Maybe Earth too.  How about this:
Chekhov is taking the Enterprise into Earth port after a long, boring
mission.  Kirk is making it with some random Yeoman, and Chekhov is
still hung over from that bottle of 'Wodka' he polished off last
night.  Anyway, Chekhov is making a pass at Saavik, when the
Enterprise 'sorta bumps into' Haley's comet.  Well, the fenders are
dented and all that, and they KNOW star fleet command just wouldn't
understand, so they take the ship into a fly-by-night body shop on the
dark side of the moon, get it patched up, and blame whatever they
can't fix on the Klingons.  Anyway, Haley's comet ends up crashing
into the Earth.  The entire crew is on shore leave, so they buy it.
Except Kirk, who is still closeted with the Yeoman.  At the end of the
movie they have this scene of Kirk being hung by his ... toenails and
flayed alive (just to satisfy the current demand for violence and
gore).

But the sentimental slobs will probably throw away this 'golden
opportunity' to correct their past mistakes and continue to glorify
some pointy eared half-breed who considers humans a poor second to a
good, reliable, logical, pocket calculator.

[End Flame Mode]

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 at 1450-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: re: V6 #7

Re: Dan Klein's question: why didn't Chekhov and Terrell beam up from
    inside immediately?
    In the book they explain this as there being too much interference
    from the atmosphere of the planet. Beaming from the outside was
    hard enough, from inside a metal building was impossible.
    (as I think someone pointed out earlier). It's too bad that so
    many things have to be (or just are) left out of a movie that go
    in the book, they usually make the story much more interesting and
    logical. Star Wars was this way, the book had a LOT of information
    that got left on the cutting room floor. I strongly suggest the
    book to both SW and STII. TESB was only slightly enlightening. I
    hope when SW comes to CBS next year(?) that they do with it what
    ABC did with Superman, add about an hour's worth of footage that
    wasn't in the original release!

Re: Hal Chambers' point about Chekhov assuming his "regular post" upon
    return to the Enterprise.
    I assume he did that since he was familiar with the post and felt
    he could contribute. The book didn't really explain why it was so
    easy for him to be a part of the Enterprise crew again. It did
    explain his condition - not too healthy, but better than no help
    at all. In fact, he had to be helped to the turbo lift from Sick
    Bay.  I guess this was just one of the ways the good guys pitch
    in to help one another.

-ka

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 1924-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Star Trek II -- TWOK

        These are some comments on recent entries concerning "The
Wrath of Khan".

        First, in the novelization, it indicates that Chekov DID
indeed attempt to contact the ship, but there was too much background
static.  Perhaps the static was natural, or perhaps in was produced by
Khan himself to prevent the premature departure of a landing party.

        By the way, it was the Reliant that was orbiting Ceti Alpha V,
NOT the Enterprise...

        Perhaps Kirk should have raised the shields, as he anticipated
troubles at Regulus I.  However, the Reliant was running with her
shields down until the last moment, so I see no reason why Kirk should
not leave his shields down likewise, to avoid expending the extra
energy.

        As he berated himself later, "I did nothing but get caught
with my britches down..."

        (Remember the episode "The Ultimate Computer"?  After M-5
committed suicide, Kirk ordered the shields to remain down as an act
of good faith.  Perhaps that is one of those unwritten regs, that is
the commander's discretion...)

        Why did the creature leave Chekov's brain?  I have my own
theory.  I have seen the movie four times so far, but am still not
sure about one thing, since the scene moves too fast.

        It looks like Tyrell, just before committing suicide, yanks
some sort of wire out of his neck.  Could that wire, (If I saw the
scene correctly,) have been connected to the creature in his brain
somehow?  Remember, in the previous scene on the Reliant, it appears
that Khan has some sort of electronic device wired into his bracelet.
The control device, possibly?

        Let us assume that said control device was used on both Chekov
and Tyrell.  When Tyrell committed suicide, he was no longer really
under the control of Khan, as he had yanked the control wire.  But the
shock, or feedback, plus Chekov's devotion and loyalty to Kirk could
have made things very uncomfortable for the Ceti Eel, and it decided
to vacate the premises for a better environment.  (or, perhaps it
matured early, and vacated Chekov's brain before death could occur...)

        That's my theory, anyway.

        Finally, about Chekov's status.  It WAS explicitly stated that
he was a member of the Reliant crew, as in the first scene in which we
see him, he is filing the ship's log as First Officer...

        Why did no one blink an eye when Chekov re-appeared on the
bridge?  Remember, this was a training mission, with a bunch of green
recruits.  In the battle they were about to engage, an experienced,
space hardened weapons officer would be much more desirable than a
student who has only used a simulator.  (Plus the fact that the Mutura
Nebula rendered normal sensors useless.  It might just need that old
gut feel when aiming and firing...)

        Albeit, Chekov had just been through Hell, with the eel doing
a fair amount of damage to the ear canal and possibly to the brain
itself.  However, it appears that Chekov's loyalty overrode his
physical discomfort.

-Henry Miller

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 1943-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Star Trek II  --  The Wrath of Khan

        I forgot to mention something in my previous message
concerning The Wrath of Khan.

        Kirk ordered the console code for the Reliant to me punched
up, in order to force her to drop her shields.  Well and good.

        But, in the TV episode "The Ultimate Computer", the M5 takes
on four other starships at the same time.  Why didn't the M5 use this
feature to disable the other ships?

        On the same notion, why didn't Commodore Wesley order the
Enterprise to drop her shields?

        Perhaps this feature was installed much later, to prevent a
similar M5 Fiasco.

-HWM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #19
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, July 19, 1982 4:44AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #19
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 19

Today's Topics:
                           SF TV - HHGttG,
         SF Books - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan & Software &
   Way-Farer & Kensho & Satori & Driftglass & Number of the Beast,
        SF Topics - Brain Use,  Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16-Jul-82 15:37:48 PDT (Friday)
From: Kluger at PARC-MAXC
Reply-to: Larry <Kluger at PARC-MAXC>
Subject: HHGttG on San Francisco/Bay Area TV


KCSM (Channel 60 in San Mateo) will be carrying Hitchhiker [etc] every
Wednesday at 9pm starting this coming Wednesday, July 21.

KQED (in San Francisco) currently doesn't plan to present the series
before September.

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1982 1444-PDT (Sunday)
From: mike at UCLA-Security (Michael Urban)
Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide

   The PBS station in LA (KCET) does not have HHGTtG on their schedule
for summer.  But Don't Panic: their program director says that they'll
show it "some time this Fall".  They'll have their Fall schedule laid
out by mid-September.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 82 00:31:37 EDT  (Fri)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Does anyone know when the HhGttG TV show is playing in Washington,
D.C.?

        Thanx,

        --Steve

P.S. -- I saw the first episode tonight here in Chapel Hill.  Highly
recommended to all fans of the radio show -- and you'll recognize most
of the dialog.  But I was sorry they omitted the dedication of the
bulldozer.

------------------------------

Date: Mon Jul 19 00:48:57 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: The Hitch-Hiker's Guide BBC-TV version

I have now watched 2 episodes of the BBC-TV version of the guide.  The
general impression I have right now is that the second episode was not
as good as the first by a fair bit.  In my opinion they did not do
enough work on converting it to TV from the radio format.

One problem is that the radio actors, although they are fine actors,
do not seem to be good actors on screen.  Most notable is the fact
that the new actor playing Ford Prefect shines much better than the
others do.  He is obviously used to TV, with all the visual things
this implies such as posture, gestures and expression.  You only get
to see Zephod for a short time, but my impression was the Mark
Wing-Davy should stick to radio as well.  I'll have to see more of him
later to see if this is the case.  His lines were not very good in
this episode.  The second head is not very good either.  It is
obviously off to one side, obviously dead, and is only animate in very
quick conversation sequences.  After observing this, I would rather
they had scrapped the heads, and had Zephod explain to Ford "well, you
know man, infinite improbabilities and all that, ok?".  That or he
could have used the technique he used to pick up Trillian on Earth.
Her acting is not very inspired either, although her lines are also a
bad sample to draw from.

Marvin the Paranoid Android is a big disappointment to me.  He is done
up as a basic feature "steel suit" man shaped robot.  He speaks with
the same well known voice, but just shuffles about aimlessly
otherwise.  I suspect that we will get quite bored of this visually
unstriking android fairly soon.  Since Marvin is an ANDROID, he could
have been made up as a good human simulation.  This is reasonably
within willing suspension of disbelief, and allows much more latitude
in making the character visually effective.  He can have a little
metal make up or clothing, of course, allowing a pain in all the
diodes down his left side, for example.

Still, any fan of the radio series or book should watch this series.'
The disappointment for me is that they have not made enough use of the
video medium they have been granted.  You get few images from the TV
that you would not have gotten from radio.  Don't Panic!

        Brad

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1982 15:02:28 EDT (Sunday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: book reviews


``Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan'' by Vonda McIntyre:

I wouldn't have bought this book if it hadn't been written by Vonda
McIntyre, even then I had my doubts; but the book reads like the good
S.F. book they made a mediocre S.F. movie out of.  I found the ending
(in which a major, popular S.T. character dies) far more moving than
in the movie.

The book has better character development (particularly of Saavik,
Cadet Peter Preston, and what's his name, Kirk's son), and patches
most of the serious holes in the movie: why Saavik is more prone to
emotion than Spock, why Spock had to venture, unprotected into the
radioactive engine-room, what Scotty was doing carrying a mangled
corpse around the bridge (he doesn't--Kirk meets him as he is waiting
for the elevator to take the kid to sick bay).

The book also has a sub-plot taking place on the research station,
which computer hackers should enjoy immensely.


``Software'' by Rudy Rucker:

This book has an openning excerpt appearing in Dan Dennett and Douglas
Hofstadter's book, ``The Mind's I'' (which I also highly recommend).
It is all about personal identity in the age of intelligent computers,
anarchy, utopias, computer-mystics, kinky robot sex, and so on.
There're lots of puns in the book (enough that I wonder how many I
missed...)  indicating that Rucker's intelligent computers will have a
sense of humor.  A good read, although I'll bet you'll get a headache
after reading about ``The little kidders''.


``Way-Farer'', ``Kensho'', and ``Satori'', by Dennis Schmidt:

Here are three books that demonstrate the beauty of science fiction:
the author invents a world in which Zen Buddhism is necessary for
survival (I owe this description to a friend).  I read the stories
that formed the basis for the first book several years ago when they
appeared (in ``Galaxy'', I think), and was pleased when they appeared
in book form.

The series form a loosely coupled trilogy (each volume takes place
several hundred years after the preceding one) with obvious hooks for
a continuation.  They all three describe a world colonized by the
Earth, which at first blush appears perfect.  Admiral Nakamura, leader
of the colonization mission, names the planet ``Kensho'', for one of
the stages of enlightenment (Nakamura is a Zen master).  The colony
ship sets down, and the colonists are busy breaking the earth with
their plows and roto-tillers when Kensho's hidden menace reveals
itself: a mind-parasite that feeds off the emotions of its victim,
urging the victim on into madness.

Most of the colony dies in the first encounter with the parasite
(named ``mushin'', a type of demon, by Nakamura, after he realizes
what happened-- not an easy task, since the survivors have little idea
why they were suddenly struck with madness).  Nakamura notes that the
survivors all had a common trait--that they all had had extensive
training in those religions that stress mental control.  This is the
key to understanding the parasite, and through understanding, to learn
to control it.

All this happens in the first few pages of the first book, as a means
of explaining why this culture has been so shaped by Zen teachings.
The first book, ``Way-Farer,'' concerns the seekings of a young man,
as he seeks to rid himself of his own inner demons (distinct from the
mushin, which people have learned to control).  A neat adventure story
in a neat world.  [One that George Lucas should have read before
making ``The Empire strikes back''--you get a much better picture of
the kind of training Luke Skywalker had to go through at the hands of
Yoda, one that is much less magical and mystical.]

``Kensho'', the second book is, well, more of the same, some two
hundred years later.  The training academies have grown corrupt, and
distrusted by the country-folk.  It is time for reform.  What a shape
reform takes.

The third novel, ``Satori'', takes place after another couple of
hundred years.  Earth has undergone a religious transformation, and
crusaders are going out to the old colonies, to convert them to the
Way.  This is the worst of the three novels.  The bad guys have
nothing to redeem them (this is, really, the first book with bad guys,
rather than a Quest), and seem a little wooden.  The religion is
Inquisition Christianity in a new guise, but pretty realistic-seeming,
and Kensho has grown a bit too utopian.  Or, at least it seems that
way in the first few pages.  It picks up after a while (Schmidt
invents an interesting character with three minds--a human being
programmed as a spy, his original personality that remains in a
shattered form after his "brain wiping", and an overlay personality,
snarfed from a captured Kenshoan (Kenshian?  Kensho-ite?)  sent down
to Kensho by the Earth expeditionary force.  Once this spy is
introduced, the wooden villains become a little easier to take,
because you see less of them.

Anyway, for those of you who couldn't get enough of Yoda in ``The
Empire Strikes back'', and who watched ``Kung Fu'' only for the
flash-backs to his life in the monastery, these are some fine books.


``Driftglass'' by Samuel Delaney:

I found this at a local bookstore that handles British imports, though
I have been told by several friends that it is (or once was) available
in an American edition.  Good stuff!  This is an anthology of several
of Delaney's short stories (some of which also appeared in the trade
paperback, ``Distant Stars'').  It includes ``We, in some strange
power's employ, move on a rigorous line'', in which section-devils for
the Global Power Commission meet, and defeat, Hell's Angels on flying
motorcycles in their mountain-top aerie.  It is full of the colorful
underworld characters one expects to encounter in a story by Delany.
Also appearing in this book are: ``Time considered as a helix of semi-
precious stones'', a story fully as intriguing as its title.

This collection of stories is a real treat for Delaney fans, and is
far more accessible than his novels (such as ``Dhalgren'', or the
unassailable ``Triton'').

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 82 15:57:44 EDT  (Thu)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: radio commercials, "Number of the Beast"

I've heard ads for at least one of the Dune books, and also (I think)
for one of the Niven/Pournelle collaborations -- probably "Lucifer's
Hammer".  Some of the paperback publishers will treat some SF works
the same way they treat their latest adventure novel, and assume that
they will appeal to the same audience.

Speaking of audience appeal -- I can't figure out what audience
"Number of the Beast" appeals to; it was pretty awful.  The plot
eventually turns out to be a non-plot, though I won't bother going
into details.  (And I think I missed the joke at the end, which was
apparently the whole point of the book.)  Heinlein's handling of sex
gets downright boring -- as a review of "Friday" in last Sunday's NY
Times put it, some readers will skip the sex to get to the good parts.
(Incidentally, I commend that review to all readers interested in
Heinlein.)

The only bright note was that Heinlein's characterizations are
improving somewhat.  I mean, the heroes *really* dislike each other
(with good cause) for much of the book; they actually work out their
interpersonal problems.  And Heinlein is finally starting (I repeat,
*starting*) to understand what feminism is all about.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 20:28:56-PDT
From: npois!npoiv!harpo!decvax!duke!mcnc!idis!mi-cec!dvk at Berkeley
Subject: Brian Use

Since I can't get to the ARPAnet from here, this is a response to the
survey on neuropsychological phenomena.

"People use their brains very inefficiently. (i.e. only 10%, or
whatever)"

The theory of holographic memory, of which I am a believer and am
attempting to write a paper on, states that memory is stored
holographically in the brain.  This, too is a neuropsychological
phenomenon that is damn near impossible to verify. However, one
supporting piece of evidence (there are many) is the results of a set
of experiments done in the 1920's (and later, in the 1950's).  [from
my paper] "Experimentally, it has been shown that the removal of large
amounts of brain tissue has little or no effect on the memory of
animals and man. Lashley (in the 1920's), and Gerard (1953), showed
that large cuts in a rats brain had no effect on its retention of the
pattern of a maze it had been presurgically trained to run. Removal of
90% of the visual cortex had a similar lack of effect. Galambos showed
that a cat's memory still functioned after the removal of 98% of its
optic tract. Similar evidence in human beings following destructive
lesions, damage to the brain following minor strokes, or surgical
removal of tumerous brain tissue indicate that removal or destruction
of sections of the brain do not impair memory, unless this destruction
is massive. In light of these experimental evidences, it would seem
unlikely that individual memories are stored in their own niches in
the brain".

        Enough proselitizing. The experiments indicated that 90% (or
whatever) of a beings brain could be hacked out without much effect.
Thus, I believe, people got the misinformation that the 90% that was
removed was never used, and that only 10% was used.

        Back to the sermon: A hologram may be reduced in size by
"surgury".  The smaller it becomes, the less resolution of the
original image is retained, *but*, each piece retains all the
information of the original. It just becomes "fuzzy". So if you cut
out a piece of a brain, the memory remains intact, but it loses some
details. (Likewise, when you grow old and your brain dies sufficiently
to make your hologram "fuzzy", your memories become "fuzzy" too.

                        Hope this helps.
                        -Dan Klein
                        MI-CEC
                        4616 Henry St.
                        Pittsburgh, Pa. 15213 (412) 578-3382
                        ...!decvax!idis!mi-cec!dvk

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 16:42:00-PDT
From: ihuxi!otto at Berkeley
Subject: Brain Use

I think there are several ways to answer the question "How much of our
brain do we use at any given time?"  One way would be to measure the
oxygen uptake of the brain.  It is know that oxygen is very important
to the brain; it uses something like 20% of the oxygen we breathe.  It
is also known that neurons have a maximum firing rate on the order of
400 times per second, and I am sure someone has worked out the oxygen
demands of a neuron firing at that rate, as well as one "at rest,"
(i.e., with the sodium pump and other metabolic processes active, but
without any action potentials).

Therefore, the matter becomes one simply of determining (or
approximating) the number of neurons in the brain and calculating the
oxygen demands of a brain "at rest" and one operating at maximum,
followed by an actual measurement of the oxygen needs of brains in
various situations.  The oxygen uptake level would then reflect the
level of brain activity between the "at rest" and "fully firing"
levels.

Please note that this analysis does not depend on an exact
understanding of how thought works, something we have only limited
understanding of, at best.  It *does* rely on an understanding of how
the building blocks of thought, the neurons, function.

George Otto
ihuxi!otto@UCB-C70

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 82 14:06:32-EDT (Mon)
From: Rehmi.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: Stop me if you've heard this, but.....

Here's to Jack Brennan, the first 'Pak-man'!

                                                -Rehmi-

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul                 JPM@Mit-Ai  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #20
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1982 10:24PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM@Mit-Ai>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #20
To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
                      Administrivia - Overload,
       SF Books - True Names Query & Best SF of the Year #11 &
    Harper Hall Trilogy & Alchemy and Academe & A Scanner Darkly &
       A Maze of Death & The Hollow Lands & JEM & Dream Park &
    Operation Chaos & The Word for World is Forrest & Dreamsnake &
              Bestsellers,  SF TV - HHGttG & Star Trek,
                     Random Topics - Space Week,
                   Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1982 10:24PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI
Subject: Overload

Currently there is enough material that has already ben submitted to
the digest, but not distributed, to make up 6 issues.  This means that
the average turnaround for any given message is about 6 days.  Some
messages (short ones on "hot" or current topics) have a shorter
turnaround; others (long and introducing new topics) have a longer
one.  Thus please be patient if you do not see your submission in
print for a few days after sending it in.

Happy reading.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 1709-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: True Names

I may be the only one on this list not to have read \True Names/
because I could never find it.  Does anyone know whether it has been
anthologized anywhere?  Many thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 82 9:32-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: some good summer reading
As always at the start of July, I go hunting for my favorite annual
short SF fiction collection, Terry Carr's BEST SF OF THE YEAR #nn.
This year it's up to volume 11 and reliably seems to have a higher
caliber of stories than the Universe, New Dimensions, and Don Wollheim
yearly collections.  Stories in this year's collection that I thought
particularly good are "The Pusher" by John Varley, "Walden Three" by
Michael Swanwick, "Emergence" by David R.  Palmer, "The Thermals of
August" by Ed Bryant, "Going Under" by Jack Dann, and "Swarmer,
Skimmer" by Gregory Benford.  There are 17 stories, about 428pp, for
$3.95 (I got it for $2.95 at a SF convention).  Mostly good reading.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1982 0431-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>
Subject: Book reviews

I've been reading quite a lot recently.  Here are some book reviews:

1) Anne McCaffrey

 a) Dragon Riders of Pern - Harper hall trilogy (DragonSinger,
        DragonSong, and DragonDrums)

   These are quite enjoyable juvenile novels.  The first two
   (following Menolley, Pern's only female harper) are better than the
   last (which is mostly about what Piemur does after his voice
   changes).  Menolley is a much more vivid character - you can almost
   hear her singing.  Humorous and fun too.  Strongly recommended for
   light reading.

 b) Alchemy and Academe:

   This is a collection of short stories in the A&A genre, whatever
   that is.  To me, it seems that it must be the Theatre of the absurd
   of SF.  I only read about half the stories in the collection, and
   most of them didn't seem to make any sense.  The ones that did make
   sense, I didn't particularly like. Oh well.

2) P.K Dick

  What with his death and immediately following praise for his work, I
  decided to give him another try (I read "The Zap Gun" several years
  ago, and found it only confusing and boring....).  Having read
  another two books (and some short stories) I have decided that what
  I don't like about Dick is his characters.  They seem to all be
  anti-heros.  All his characters I have read are basically people
  that you would not want to meet under the best of circumstances, and
  the circumstances are never that good... (The characters are
  especially REAL, and Dick's imagery is also very beautiful and/or
  disturbing.  It's not that he can't write, I just don't like it...)

 a) A Scanner Darkly

   Inside view of a futuristic drug culture from one who presumably
   has first hand experience.  An undercover narc is assigned to
   observe himself, resulting in increasing pressure, abuse of the
   deadly "substance D", and schizophrenia due to the destruction of
   brain tissue. Ends with an author's note saying "This has been a
   novel about some people who were punished entirely too much for
   what they did..." followed by a list of people, whom he knew, now
   dead or permanently damaged.... "Let them all play again, in some
   other way, and let them be happy."  Make sure you're in a good mood
   when you read this.  Ugh.

 b) A Maze of Death

   This seems to be a little better so far (i'm about half done). A
   bunch of losers (of various kinds) are reassigned to a colony on a
   planet.  They arive in one way ships and are not told what they are
   supposed to be doing.  The planet is interesting in that about half
   the "life" on it is in actuality mechanical.  Anyway, after
   everyone arrives, something (one?) starts killing them off.  At the
   point i'm at, their theory is that they are subjects of some sort
   of stress research by unfriendly persons.  The book has as a major
   point a religion where praying actually works, especially if you
   use a big radio and one of the more advanced interstellar races
   happens to hear and take notice...

3) Others

 a) "The Hollow Lands", by Michael Moorcock

   Book 2 of the "dancers at the end of time" trilogy.  A playfully
   silly set of novels about a hedonistic utopia has used ancient (to
   them) technology to abolish death, natural forces, etc.  Green
   sunsets and edible buildings will give you the idea.  The only
   remaining problem is boredom.  Jehrick, who was actually naturally
   conceived (another experiment) decides in book 1 ("An Alien Heat")
   to try the ancient custom of falling in love, and enlists a women
   from victorian england (snarfed by a time machine) to help.  All
   sorts of interesting fireworks result, of course.  "The Hollow
   Lands" follows Jehrick as he tries to find another time machine so
   he can go back looking for his lost love (she got sent back, you
   see..).  Very twisted, irreverant, and hilarious.

 b) "JEM" by Frederik Pohl

   Competing factions on earth extend their battle into space when a
   planet that might be colonizable is found.  Each of the three major
   factions (food, people, and oil producers) teams up with a
   different sentient alien race (the planet just happens to have 3).
   This book just wasn't believable.  The characters are all fanatics.
   The alien races never cooperate with each other.  And I don't
   believe it would be possible for a small colony to maintain a
   technological culture without help from home. "Darkover landfall"
   (non-technical) or "total eclipse" (by Brunner) (death) are both
   more likely.  The latter handles the major idea of the story better
   too...

 c) "Dream Park" by Niven and Barnes

   Using easily extrapolated technology, DND type games gain reality
   through the use of holograms, actors, and computers.  The rich, and
   other play an occasional such game at fabulous Dream Park, which
   uses similar technology to create tomorrows Disneyland.  During
   one such game (timewise), however, a dream park security guard is
   killed, resulting in this combination high tech, DND, detective
   story.  A lot of fun, but I found the characters rather cardboard,
   with no apparent motives behind their actions.  Also you could tell
   who in the DND game would be "killed" by the depth of the
   description given of them.  No one you care about gets killed until
   the very end...  Otherwise quite enjoyable.

 d) "Operation Chaos" by Poul Anderson

   Another fun book.  An alternate universe where magic works.  Follow
   the adventures of a werewolf and his wife the witch.  Written along
   the lines of Heinlein's "magic inc" - attempts to handle the magic
   as a consistent science (I can't rate how it succeeds at this, I
   don't know enough about classic magic) with humor and parallel
   jokes throughout (like the polaroid flash that provide the proper
   illumination for were-animals to transform themselves even when the
   moon isn't full...).  Good stuff.

 e) "The Word for World is Forrest" by LeGuin

   Now here is a REALLY good book.  Humans are harvesting trees from
   the world of the Athsheans, seriously disrupting the ecology of the
   planet and treating the natives as sub-intelligent slave.  The are
   in fact more intelligent than they seem, having highly developed
   powers of dreaming and an almost innate feel for ecology.  Though
   normally non-violent, The Athsheans eventually become angry...
   LeGuin is an absolute wizard at creating alien ecologies,
   psychologies, and sociologies.  This book is no exception.  Very
   strongly recommended.

 f) "Dreamsnake" by Vonda McIntyre

   I also thought this was good.  In the distant future, Genetic
   engineering has progressed to the point where snakes are bred so
   that under the proper conditions, they will produce medicines and
   vacines and such instead of poisons.  So your average country
   doctor travels around (the world is recovering from a nuclear war,
   and there are few doctors) with a cobra, a rattler, and an alien
   "dreamsnake" (it produces euphorics).  What "hard" technology
   remains is in domed cities, and they don't share it.  The main
   character "Snake" loses her dreamsnake (it gets killed) and goes
   off in search of another (dreamsnakes are very rare - being alien,
   they are very hard to clone, and the healers haven't been able to
   get them to breed.  The cities, which are the only off world
   contacts, refuse to have anything to do with the healers).
   Although things get stretched a little here and there, the whole
   novel holds together well, and reads well.  Fascinating ideas
   sprinkled throughout...

That's all for now.

Bill Westfield

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1982 14:27:12-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Sf best-sellers

   TWICE SHY sounds like about as marginal SF as you can get---sort of
THE MAN WHOSE NAME WOULDN'T FIT without the magic virus. Does anything
with computers in it qualify, in view of their current prevalence?  (I
suppose you could argue Campbell's dictum (he was looking for stories
that would be in SATURDAY EVENING POST in 2000+) but in view of his
other statements that's an unsupported remark.)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1516-EDT
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ at NLM-MCS>
Subject: HHGttG in Washington D.C.

The program manager for the PBS station in Washington says the
Hitchhikers Guide will be aired sometime in the Fall.

                                                           -bob

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1927-PDT
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>
Subject: Hgttg in DC

I called WETA, the main PBS station in DC.  They say that we will have
it in October.  Sigh.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 at 0921-PDT
From: dan at SRI-TSC
Subject: Re: STAR TREK character aging (non-spoiler)

Unfortunately they didn't interview "Scotty" -- he's always been my
favorite ST character -- but I agree time has spread him out a bit.
But "Bones" was liver-spot city, with lots of wrinkles, grey hair, and
an even thinner and more leathery voice.  Not that I'm prejudiced
against old-folks, I just didn't realize he has THAT old...  I'm
tempted to say he's in his 70's.
        -Dan

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1982 1850-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Trek Trivia

        Just a few pieces of obscure Trek Trivia I thought you might be
interested in.

        Can you name two actors that guest starred in Trek episodes
who were regulars on Battlestar Galatica/Galatica 1980?

        How many actors/actresses can you name who guest starred in
more than one Trek episode.  (Note: do not include Roger C. Carmel as
Harry Mudd: I am referring to different characters.)

        Who was a semi-regular crew member in Star Trek who returned
in "The Wrath of Kahn"?  (Hint: he was a member of the Reliant's
crew.)

        The answers, if you don't figure them out, will appear in a
few days.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 0923-PDT
From: Craig E. Ward <Ward at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Space Week

For those interested in the space program:

The California Museum of Science and Industry and the American
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics are sponsoring Space Week
July 17 - 25 to commemorate the anniversaries of the first landing on
the moon by Apollo 11 and the Viking I landing on Mars.

Activities include:

July 17-25 Museum Theaters--NASA Space films will be screened daily
12-4 pm.  The film "The Making of Star Wars" will also be shown.

July 19 7:00pm OMNI Magazine will present "Careers in Space--Your
Guide to the Future".  This multi-media program will be hosted by NASA
consultant Stan Kent.

July 20 Anniversary Day luncheon featuring Dr.  Hans Mark, NASA Deputy
Director, and former astronaut Pete Conrad.  Call 670-6642 for more
information.

July 17 Children's Space Program at the Kidspace Museum, 390 S.  El
Molino, Pasadena, 449-9143

July 24 & 25 The museum will have special space and aircraft displays,
Moon Models, space pictures and movies.  Live recreation of the Apollo
moon walks will take place throughout the day with astronauts in space
suits, a replica of the Lunar Lander and a simulated moonscape.

All events except the luncheon are free.  For more information call
(213) 744-7438.

------------------------------

Date: 14-Jul-82 10:42-PDT
From: JWAGNER at OFFICE
Subject: Genderless video games
PacAnimal?  Pac-a-Derm?  Pac-i-stan?  I don't know ... sounds to me
like you've been hitting a six-Pac.  -- Jim Wagner

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #21
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, July 23, 1982 6:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #21
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Jul 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
               Administrivia - Transmission Procedures,
        SF Books - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe,
            SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan &
    The Thing & Blade Runner,  Random Topics - Violence in Movies,
                        Spoiler - Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 23, 1982 6:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI
Subject: Transmission Procedures

One of the machines in the transmission path of the digest went down
for an extensive period of time the middle of this week.  This
resulted in the queuing of the Tuesday digest, issue 20, for an
excessive period of time, and thus late delivery.  All subsequent
issues were yanked until this problem was resolved, and thus the
digests will be slightly out of sinq for a bit.

We have now changed our transmission path and procedures.  We are now
transmitting from SRI-CSL.  We may encounter some slight transmission
difficulties until things get up to steam, so please bear with us.
The mailbox for submissions to the digest remains SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI,
and that for administrative requests SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-Ai.

                                    Happy reading,

                                                Jim

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1982 at 1034-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: ramblings

RE: Someone's complaint that STII was just like another episode:

That's *exactly* why it's so good! That's why the first one was a flop.
I liked the first one, but it's because I'm such a die-hard Trekkie (I
hate that name but at least people know what I'm talking about when I
use it). I can see why the first one didn't go over well.  The second
one returns to the atmosphere of the show. Kirk is in top form. The
conflict/friendship between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy is at its best.

RE: Steve Gutfreund's comments about Bladerunner finally bringing SF
to the silver screen:

I though Bladerunner was good, not great, but good. The effects were
stunning. The story was slow in places, but over all very interesting.
It made me think. I agree this is "real" SF which makes it unique in
the light of SW, ST, etc. I like science fiction a lot but am not as
obsessed by general SF as I am by ST, SW, and a few others. I am not
"into" SF as much as I'm sure many of you are. Those that are will
love Bladerunner. Those that just like the flashy, easy to under-
stand stories, may not like it as much. My little sister, who has of
late become a SW/Harrison Ford freak, went to Bladerunner sure she
would love it. She came back unsure of what even went on (she's not a
Sci-Fi person). I think this made her realize that SF is more than
just SW and TREK! It was really rather humorous.

Finally read the second Hitchhiker's book "The Restaurant at the End
of the Universe." Didn't seem as continually funny as the first one,
but still a good book. The last few chapters made it worth it.
Looking forward to the third and final part "Life, the Universe, and
Everything."

Sorry for blabbering to excess.

King

------------------------------

Date: 30-Jun-82 10:28AM-EDT (Wed)
From: David Miller <Miller at YALE>
Subject: The Thing and Bladerunner


Yesterday I saw both "The Thing" and "Bladerunner" with only a six
hour break between the films. They are slightly different versions of
the same basic idea, and therefore their reviews are somewhat merged.

pico review: (Thing) Worth the price of a matinee ticket.
             (BR) Well done, worth full price at least once.

micro review: (Thing) A must see for John Carpenter fans, horror fans,
                      and John W Cambell fans. A reasonably accurate
                      version of "Who Goes There" with some creative
                          goo and gore added, mostly in good taste.

              (BR) Visually incredible! the score by Vangelis is
                      superb.  Harrison Ford is typical Ford, and very
                      good for his role. Done in the style of the old
                      detective films --with narration (a style I've
                      not seen (with the exception of "Dead Men Don't
                      Wear Plaid") for many years.


macro review:  Both these films deal with enemies in human form, and
                one man's story of how he hunts them down. In both
                films, who is human and who is not gets sufficiently
                confused to cause the hero to go through considerable
                mental anguish.  The difference in the films is that
                in the "Thing" the enemy is EVIL and must be
                destroyed, in "Bladerunner" there is no reason to
                destroy the enemy except that that is the hero's job,
                and like many Vietnam Vet, he starts to question on
                whether or not it is the right thing to do.

                "The Thing" is pure entertainment, the only message in
                the movie is not to let strange dogs bite you.
                "Bladerunner" has got more to it, without the plot it
                is an interesting study of a possible future Earth,
                inhabited by the poor and unskilled who could not make
                it to one of the off world colonies. It also shows the
                wisdom of Asimov's three laws, and how even with them
                a severe moral question still remains.

                The main problem with "Bladerunner" is the lack of
                development of Ford with the female lead. The
                relationship between the two is not sufficiently
                developed to add anything to the plot, in fact you
                will probably forget she exists during the last half
                of the movie. The lack of a believable relationship
                makes the very end of the movie quite corny, and
                almost spoils the mood that was carefully built up for
                the first two hours.

                "The Thing" has no weaknesses. It is exactly what it
                says it is a SF action horror film in the style of
                "Alien", though I feel better done, and with fewer
                logical flaws.

                Both films are worth seeing, though a certain
                fascination with the grotesque will greatly aid your
                appreciation of "The Thing."

                                        Dave
                                        (miller@yale)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1982 13:21 CDT
From: Johnston.DLOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Blade Runner -- SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #8

I am amazed at the number of people who seem to feel that SF should
present us with potential problems to be solved before the physical
reality is here.  I saw Blade Runner and thought it stank, even before
reading any reviews.  Science Fiction has always been a form of
ENTERTAINMENT for me, not food for thought.  If I want to think deep
thoughts about miserable conditions, I'll read Solzhienitzen (sp?).
That's all he writes.  This is the same reason I got tired of
Heinlein.  All his books espouse his philosophy.  I feel there are
better settings for that than SF.  Blade Runner was just depressing.
We are provided with accelerated technology which has only brought the
Earth to ruin.  The ecology is totally destroyed, no buildings in the
entire city are maintained (except the headquarters of the big
corporation which caused the problem in the first place), and it's
never even light.  I find nothing entertaining in this.  But then,
some people found "Looking for Mr. Goodbar" entertaining.  No arguing
taste, right?

Rick

------------------------------

Date: 12-Jul-82 10:37AM-EDT (Mon)
From: David Miller <Miller at YALE>
Subject: Bladerunner and violence in movies


It disturbs me somewhat to see all the official horror at the
"violence" in movies such as BLADERUNNER.  Those critics that
complained about such graphic scenes as fingers being snapped and
heads being crushed should go see the film again.  There are NO such
scenes in the movie.  It is all left up to the viewers imagination,
aided by some good sound effects, and some leading glimpses.  Oh the
tone of BLADERUNNER is very violent, but I thought that was the idea
of the film:  whether or not a being deserved the common courtesy of
humanity, or whether they should be treated like a toy to be broken
and thrown away just because they are not quite natural.

The uproar over this film reminds me quite a bit of that which came
over the film ROLLERBALL, another film that seems very violent, but
which really just manipulates the viewers imagination extremely well.

I thought the link of violence in film to that of real life was when
it was glorified and made to look not at all unpleasant -- as in the
police movies of a few years ago.  In BLADERUNNER and ROLLERBALL
violence was made to look painful, sick, and not at all pleasant both
for the person the act was upon, and the person doing the act.  I
suspect bladerunner will not inspire anyone to run out in the street
and start shooting replicants, it made the whole thing look quite
unpleasant.
                                            Dave
                                            (miller@yale)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1982 2224-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Bladerunner


        My first impression of bladerunner was that it was bit too
violent. Real life does indeed include violence, but should we derive
entertainment from it? I don't object to having violence as part of a
movie, but I do object to it being highlighted.

        Bladerunner is one of the few SF movies that addresses a
social question, and will undoubtedly be talked about for a while. I
felt however, that there were a few fundamental problems with the
premise. If the citizens felt replicants were enough of a problem to
outlaw them on earth, and set special task forces to handle it,
(expensive and LA didn't seem to be prospering) why didn't they just
outlaw the human form for robots?

        Also, if they were outlawed on earth, why were they designed
there? Earth is ambiguous also, if only the dregs of humanity are
left, why would the replicants head out there?  and even if they did,
who would care? And if the replicants are dangerous, why not ban them
from where the elite live.

        I would hesitate to call it the Maltese Falcon of SF because
Drekard only found one replicant by detective work (snake dancer),
although it was apparent they were trying for a Sam Spade character.

        Overall, it was fast moving, and entertaining, and I would
recommend seeing it at least once, anyway.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1982 08:22:48-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: Blade Runner


   The latest issue of American Cinematographer includes two pieces on
the making of Blade Runner, one focussing on the futuristic design of
the film and the other on the optical effects.  Both make very
interesting reading.
   Of particular interest is the end of the effects piece.  Somebody
from Trumbull's team (Richard Yuricich?) says that they showed a
goodly amount of the effects footage one day to PKDick before he died.
How did he react?  He was apparently blown away.  He said they had
uncannily captured exactly what was in his head when he wrote the book
(to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, since this is not
subject to verification).

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 15 Jul 1982 08:54-PDT
Subject: Blade Runner anachronism (non-spoiler)
From: jim at RAND-UNIX

Deckard has an obvious smallpox vaccination mark.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 23, 1982 6:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discusses some plot details in the
movie Blade Runner.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 82 17:08-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Bladerunner and The Bradbury

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

Did anyone notice that the hotel in Bladerunner where Ford nails some
replicants is the same one in which the Outer Limits episode 'Demon
With a Glass Hand' (by Harlan Ellison) was also filmed where Trent
(Bob Culp) battles with the aliens?  It's called the Bradbury and is
actually located in Los Angeles as in the movie.  I wonder if Ridley
Scott saw the Outer Limits episode.

Another micro-review of Bladerunner: great production values and
effects by Trumbull, awful dialogue and meager acting; however, it is
a refreshing change from the syrupy universes in the Spielberg/Lucas
movies.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #22
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1982 2:19AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #22
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:
        SF Books - Little,Big & The Best of Randall Garrett &
 Lensman Series & Dennis Schmidt & Babel 17 & "The Digital Dictator",
       SF Movies - Das Boot & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
               SF TV - HHGttG,  SF Topics - Brain Use,
                    Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22-Jul-82 1:23PM-EDT (Thu)
From: Steven Salzberg <Salzberg at YALE>
Reply-to:Salzberg@Yale
Subject: Little, Big

I just looked at Crowley's "Little, Big" in a bookstore, after seeing
it on this bboard recently.  I didn't buy it because I could tell in
my brief perusal what sort of story it was.  Could anyone out there
enlighten me, provide a few plot details, recommendations, etc.?
Also, I'd be interested in the titles of good fantasy (a la Tolkien)
where writing style and plot create absorbing reading -- too many
books I find have one or the other, and I've been reading non-fiction
for so long that I'm out of touch with who the good writers are now.
Thanks.
                                                --Steven

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1982 05:39:16-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley
Subject: The Best of Randall Garrett.

I just finished reading this truly marvelous book. I advise everyone
to go out and buy this book to read and enjoy and read and enjoy and
...

For those of you not familiar with his work, Garrett published a lot
of stuff in ASF during the 50's and 60's.  This work tends to be
entertaining. There were a couple of stories whose plot I remembered
after 15+ years, even though I didn't remember the author/title/
magazine related to them.  Among other things, Garrett demonstrates
how far you can mislead someone by giving them the truth and nothing
but the truth.

Over the last decade, Garrett has been turning out Lord Darcy stories.
Darcy is a detective in an alternate time stream, where Richard the
Lionhearted didn't die young, and John Lackland (Black John) was never
a king of England. And somebody published a book that laid out the
mathematical laws of magic. Given a working magic, science doesn't
stand a chance.  The result is some interesting whodunits from
Garrett.  Not hard science fiction, but just as good. (Hard magic
fiction?)

Then there are the reviews. Garrett reviews (in verse, no less!)
Bester's `The Demolished Man,' Asimov's `The Caves of Steel' and
Anderson's `Three Hearts and Three Lions.' There's also an hilarious
parody of the Foundation stories.

Finally, for those who like personal comments from the writers, there
are comments on Garrett by various authors strung between the stories.
All good stuff.

        Share and Enjoy!
        mike

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 1927-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Book review:  The Lensman series

        Berkley Books has just come out with a re-release of the
famous Lensman series, by Edward E. "Doc" Smith.  These books have
been out of print for five years, and with some luck, you might have
been able to scrape together all six books by visiting many book
stores.

        And, surprise of surprises, this re-issue has brand new cover
illustrations, brilliantly done by David Mattingly.  For once, the
covers actually match the stories.

        These books are good old fashioned space opera, complete with
blaster fire, damsels in distress and epic space battles.  (Pure Star
Wars genre.)

        To give you a brief idea of the story line, two galaxies
passed through each other a few billion years ago.  Two races of
beings, each immensely old discover each other.

        The bad guys are concerned with universal domination, while
the good guys are only concerned with the advancement of civilization.

        The good guys, the Arisians, discover that the bad guys, the
Eddorians, can only be destroyed by intense mental force.  Therefore,
the Arisians set forth to develop in other, lower beings minds of
sufficient power to perform the task.

        The six books of the series are, "Triplanetary", "Galatic
Patrol", "First Lensman", "Gray Lensman", "Second Stage Lensman", and
"The Children of the Lens".

        Smith wrote another book which is a spinoff of the series
called "The Vortex Blasters", and later renamed to be "The Masters of
the Vortex".  This book has not been re-issued at this time.

        After Smith's death in 1965, a close friend of his, David A.
Kyle, used Smith's notes, and penned "The Dragon Lensman", a book
about the adventures of Worsel, one of the main characters of the
series.  This book has not been re-issued yet, but is still in print.

        There are rumors that Smith intended to write two more books
about particular Lensmen mentioned in the series, but nothing has
materialized yet.

        Rumor also had it that Smith was going to write additional
Lensman books as sequels to the "Children of the Lens", but as yet, no
one has gathered his notes.

        If you love good old fashioned SF adventure, whether you're
young or old, I highly reccomend the Lensman series.  Cost is $ 2.50
per book.


-Henry

------------------------------

Date: 26 July 1982  01:21-EDT (Monday)
From: Robert A. Carter <CARTER at RUTGERS>
Subject: Review of Das Boot ("The Boat")


The German film Das Boot ("The Boat") takes place during World War II.
However, the plotline is so intimately concerned with the effects of
an enclosed micro-environment that it might as well take place in
orbit, or in deep space, thus should interest many who follow
science-fiction movies.

Pico-review:  Best submarine movie ever.

Mini-review:  This movie tells the story of one short patrol by a
              German U-Boat in l941.  The plot concerns the crew's
              conflict with the British, their inhospitable
              environment, and their own fear, in ascending order
              of importance.  This is a powerful and moving picture;
              seeing it after this summer's crop of Spielbergian
              sentimentality is a good reminder of what real
              movies are about.  See it.

Review:  Das Boot is "science fiction" in all but date, and
              certainly deserves the title better than any of the
              SW or ST movies.  It concentrates primarily on the
              personal and environmental stresses suffered by the
              members of a German U-Boat crew, and reproduces the
              submarine environment with much more detail and
              truthfulness than any similar movie I have ever
              seen.  In particular, it is far superior to what
              I had thought the best such picture, The Enemy Below.
              It makes references to TEB and to other submarine
              pictures that must be conscious, but plot and
              character development are far superior.  The movie
              is in German, and subtitled.  I have German,
              and saw Das Boot with a group, some of whom also spoke
              it and some of whom did not.  The non-German-speakers
              liked it just fine, although those of us who could
              understand (some) of the dialogue agreed that the
              subtitles failed to capture some of the jokes
              (especially the locker-room humor, which not
              objectionable, but about what you would expect in
              a submarine).  The acting was first rate, as was
              the set design.  You will be amazed at how small
              it is inside a sub.  My only quarrel with the movie
              as that some effects (i.e. model work) had the sub
              moving much too fast through the water. By all means,
              see this picture.  If you still think it has nothing
              to do with science fiction, compare it to Silent
              Running.  I think you'll agree it is fundamentally
              the same kind of picture, but much better.



_R. Carter

------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1982  10:41-PDT (Thursday)
From: KING at KESTREL
Subject: Hitchhikers' Guide broadcasts

        I started watching Hitchhikers' Guide yesterday.  I'd like to
maintain continuity when I go to Fair Lawn, N. J. and to Washington DC
towards the end of August.
        Does anyone know of TV stations in these areas which are
broadcasting HHGttG reasonably close to synchronously with channel 60
in Palo Alto?  They just aired the first episode yesterday and will
air one per week.
        Thanks.
                                        Dick

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 1982 1406-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

According to the current KFJC program guide, the program is being
aired Wednesday nights, I believe at 9:30PM (I don't have it in front
of me as I type this, but I believe it to be right.).

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1982 20:55-EDT
From: Howie Daniel Trachtman <HDT at MIT-AI>
Subject: HHGtG and TRON
    Date: 12 July 1982 15:08 edt
    From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS
    To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:  HHGtG and TRON

    1. HHGtG snuck into town this Saturday.  A 30-minute segment on
       PBS, so presumably we are going to get the whole thing.
       Special effects a little above the Dr. Who level; an adequate
       Dent and a perfect Prefect.

I know about HHGtG on radio in the Boston area, but WHEN is it on PBS?

--Howard--

------------------------------

Date: 21-Jul-82 5:28PM-EDT (Wed)
From: Todd Allen <Allen at YALE>
Subject: JUST JOINED!

Just took a look at the SF-LOVERS drop bax here at Yale CS Dept.
WOW!!  But there sure is a lot of stuff out there!!!

About TWOK:

Have seen the movie twice (and enjoyed it greatly) and was lucky
enough to see the Creatures Features thing out in SF (my sister was
married in Berkely that weekend).  However, all this analysis of the
movie and refering to the book and all is begining to leave a bad
taste in my mouth.  As I watched the movie I certainly picked up on
all the things mentioned in these columns and more, but all this back
biting begins to wear.  As for the book, well the movie has to stand
on its own.  Perhaps the book contains info left on the cutting room
floor, and just maybe it sets out to correct deficiencies in the
movie.  But either way, the movie is a finished product separate from
the book and not helped by it.  Personally, I hope the flood of
commentary on TWOK dries up!

By the way, Ricardo Montalbon is/was quite impressive.  The interview
with him was nice.  Though not particularly informative, it did give
me the measure of the man.  I am glad to see that others think (as I
do) that Shatner is a rather shalow actor.

An endorsement for Dennis Schmidt:

Enjoyed seeing the reviews of "Way-farer", "Kensho", and "Sartori".
Have read and enjoyed "Kensho" though I do not fall into any of the
catagories mentioned by your reviewer.  Mr Schmidt is an extremely
competent author who tends to study contemporary issues in futuristic,
pan galactic settings.  I highly recommend him, and all his works to
those as yet unfamiliar with him.

On Samuel Delaney:

Whew! For a while I was wondering why I couldn't make head or tail of
"Dahlgren" and "Triton".  It's good to see that others also find him
impenetrable.

On the other hand, "Babel 17" by Delaney is GREAT!  Read it several
times many times many years ago, and probably will read it again soon.
Here is a brief synopsis from (possibly faulty -- "fuzzy") memory:

This a we vs they pan galactic espionage situation.  "They" are
wreaking havok with sabotage, but no information can be gained as to
who ar where they are located.  To make maters worse, "they" have
invented a language, Babel 17", which is used for all "their"
communication.  This language and its underlying assumptions and logic
are so alien, that anyone learning to think in the language eventually
becomes one of "their" agents and starts to perform acts of espionage
and sabotage in a sort of fugue state.  The protagonist is a
cosmetically altered human (?)  female ship master (captain) with the
required skills (primarily languages) and contacts to be co-opted to
break "their" code.

The book is well written and highly accessible.  You may have trouble
with the story's basic assumptions about the effects of language, but
it deserves careful consideration.  this is a *MUST READ* book.

Holographic memory:

To whome it may concern:  Tanx for the info on the holographic nature
of memory.  If you or anyone else has comments on "Electronic
Dictator" a short story in a recent edition of Analog (or Fantasy & SF
or IASFM - I'm not sure which), please broadcast them.  The story
proposed mitachondria (mitachondron according to the author) as the
means of holographic memory, and proposed that virutally every cell in
the body contains a "fuzzy" copy of your memory.

------------------------------

Date: 25-Jul-82 5:51PM-EDT (Sun)
From: Todd Allen <Allen at YALE>
Subject: Holographic memory

A few days ago I sent a message to SF-LOVERS reguarding a recent
novellete that seemed related to recent a recent item on the
holographic nature of memory.  The correct reference is:

"The Digital Dictator" by Ian Stewart, in the August 1982 Analog (last
month)

The story is weak (particulary from the cs point of view) but
humorous.  What i'd like to know is: is there any truth in the
biological assertions / assumptions of the story?

------------------------------

Date: 20 July 1982 17:27 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: % of brain

There was some work reported in SciAm in which pictures of oxygen use
in the brain were made.  One amusing result was that counting from 1
to 10 out loud used a different section of the brain from that used
when counting to oneself.  Needless to say there was no obvious dead
load in the typical brain.

As far as picking a percentage it might be a good idea to remember
that the knee joints take a disproportionate fraction of the forces
involved in walking but I imagine that removing half of one femur
would make walking next to impossible.

BTW If people are going to accuse ADA of being SF related I should
mention that Peter Graves's (of I, Claudius fame) Hercules My Shipmate
is in print again.  It is an excellent renedering of the voyage of the
Argo set near the end of the reign of the Triple Goddess.  The novel
itself is excellent in its renderings of Hercules, Orpheus and Jason
but the book is worth reading for the appendix alone.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1648-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Humorless video games

Where are they filming the new Pacman movie?

On a Hollywood PAClot.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #23
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1982 3:10AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #23
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 23 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:
                          SF Movies - TRON,
                           Spoiler - TRON
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 03:44:46-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley
Subject: TRON

Tron opened today, and after reading the book (yes, I stooped that
low), I had to go see it.

Mini Review: GREAT Grafix/sfx. Plot? What Plot?

TRON does not suffer from the one flaw in Star Wars: at no point
during TRON do they let the plot get in the way of the movie, which
occasionally happened in Star Wars.

TRON will undoubtedly become a cult movie, being pre-target at the
CS/Grafix freaks. I recommend see it, at least once. If you're a
hard-core Grafix person, see it again, and again, and ...  You might
also consider reading the book, as it's slightly better sf (but who
can tell at those depths?).

        mike

------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1982 22:25 edt
From: Frankston.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Reply-to: Frankston at MIT-MULTICS (Bob Frankston)
Subject: BOZOS:TRON::Doctor (nee Eliza):Video Games

The corruption of terminology in TRON reminds me of the Firesign
Theatre album "We're all Bozos on this Bus" (or somesuch title).  It
sounds like that starting points was a demonstration on the Lisp
Doctor program.  It was invoked via "(worker)".  Use of the term MAC
sounded like a reference to project MAC.

TRON was a fairly impressive hack, but much of the humor came from the
writer's misuse of words that sounded nice but were totally
inappropriate (like de-resed).  I just took the attitude that TRON was
simply a vehicle for cute graphics and some action.

One question -- why human faces instead of computer-generated faces.
We it simply too much of a technical annoyance or was it felt that the
human faces were need as a reference for the audience.

------------------------------

Date: 26-Jul-82  9:48:56 EDT
From: duntemann.wbst
Subject: See TRON anyway

An awful lot of my friends, including a good many respected hackers,
are avoiding TRON before the fact as being silly, juvenile, and not
worth the money.  Two out of three maybe...but I saw it the other
night, and it was fully worth the money.  Not for the plot (hilarious)
or the characters (what characters?) but for the G R A P H I C S
!!!!!!!!

You guys have never seen computer graphics like they throw around
wholesale in that movie.  Even if you have seen little things running
around on a 19" RGB monitor with 1024 X 1024 resolution, seeing it up
on the big screen is QUITE another matter.  It is one the most
beautifully done evocations of an utterly alien world I have ever seen
on film.  Once you insert actors it loses something, granted.  But the
wide views of a solar sailer sliding down a beam of light over
geometric purple mountains was magnificent.

And as for its juvenile silliness, well, heck; try to lay back and
just let it take you.  SF is for lots of different things; this one
exists primarily to help you forget mortgage payments, dropped
transmissions, and why the dog's been throwing up all week.  To me
that's worth 4 bucks.

I also saw The Secret of NIMH, and I'll include a quickie opinion
(since it's waythehellout in the hinterlands of appropriateness here)
when I have a little more time.

--Jeff Duntemann (duntemann.wbst at PARC-MAXC)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 2144-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: TRON

To avoid being redundant I will not mention that this is a great movie
for hackers and video game players, while leaving something to be
desired for the rest of the world.  Instead, I'd like to throw in a
quick reference to my favorite scene, The little green cubbies where
the hackers worked.  As a hacker who works in one of these little
suckers I couldn't avoid a chuckle.
  All hail Herman-Miller
  -Jim Hendler
  TI Dallas

------------------------------

Date: 07/21/82 00:04:01
From: LWF@MIT-MC
Subject: TRON

A fact that may interest some people is that while 65% of the movie
was computer animation, it only accounted for 20% of the movie's
budget.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1982 3:10AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The following ten messages in this digest discuss some plot details in
the movie TRON.  They may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 16 July 1982 07:29-EDT
From: Christopher C. Stacy <CStacy at MIT-AI>
Subject: TRON spoiler

Aside from the flashy computer graphics, which are as excellent as
they are cracked up to be, I thought I would share a few of the more
intense scenes from the creative script of TRON with all you Spoiler
Lovers:

1. Flybys of big space ships.

2. The evil Sark Lord talking to his Master.

3. Hack Solo acting like his usual cocky self.

4. The old IO tower, a religious fanatic who is perhaps more
   than he seems, mumbling mystical mumblage at Luke.
   This is followed by music sounding similar to "Yoda's Theme".

5. The Millenium Lightsail being coaxed into hyperspace for a fast,
   dramatic, and temporary escape from the Imperial battle cruiser.

6. To introduce the final light-disk duel, the evil MCP feels
   a disturbance...slowely he says:
    "I feel a presence...there is another warrior on the grid!"


Indeed, it feels like a presence we've not felt in years!

Cheers,
Chris

PS., In the theatre I saw the movie in, they were showing Star Wars
     reruns commercials before the main feature began.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1982 05:38:50-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley
Subject: TRON as Disney allegory

The review of TRON on NPR's "Morning Edition" show made an interesting
point: one can point out possible similarities between Dillinger's
takeover of ENCOM and an alleged (not being a follower of Disney
internals, I couldn't say) move of business types into control of the
organization Walt Disney built--after all, the reviewer said, ENCOM is
rather similar as an acronym to EPCOT (Experimental Prototype
Community Of Tomorrow, which is going up at some Disney park), and the
first name of Dr. Gibbs, who built up ENCOM from a garage business,
*is* Walter.

Oh, well--Gerald Weinberg must not like TRON at all. I did, though,
for the effects, and having experienced a fair number of programs (not
to mention possibly at least one devoutly-worshipped programming
language) that may reflect their creators only too well. (I'm sure
mine do.)

One question, though. TRON, like TWoK, lacked a good deal of
supporting detail which could only be found in the novelization (which
I think I'd like to have seen, though budgets may be a limitation).
I'd be interested in hearing some cinematic flames on why the holes
were (if indeed they were) so gaping in these movies when compared to,
say, *Star Wars*, which, as a friend so felicitously said, never let
the plot get in the way of the movie.

                                        James Jones
                                        (duke!uok!uokvax!jejones)

------------------------------

Date: 16 July 1982 10:55 edt
From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: TRON and gratuitous sex

Possibly a spoiler warning:

Yes, the female part in the TRON movie was pretty gratuitous, but that
is standard fare these days, so don't expect any better.

The book makes a much bigger deal over her, and it is much more
effective.  In the book, Tron is motivated during the first half by
two things: his innate desire to do what his User (the book always
capitalized the term) wanted, i.e. destroy the MCP, and his desire to
see his beloved again.  Every time the narration entered his mind,
there was always the mention of "the one for whom he lived" (or
something along those lines).

The book actually had a scene in Yori's "apartment", and described how
programs "do it" to some extent.  It turns out that programs do not
actually kiss, but at the end of the story Flynn kisses Yori, and she
is confused.  However, she enjoyed it so much that after she is
reunited with Tron (after he defeats the MCP) she kisses him,
explaining that that is something that Users do.
                                barmar

------------------------------
Date: 16 Jul 1982 1826-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: TRON nits

To CHUQUI@MIT-AI: well yes, meaningless sex scenes are a lose, but
TRON didn't have a sex scene. There was some dialogue that indicated
that Flynn and Lora used to be lovers and that Alan and Lora currently
were. By analogy, the "electronic alter egos" of these characters
appealed to each other. We see FLYNN (the program) kiss YORI, and
later she shows TRON this bit of user-chic. This is gratuitous sex?

Also, the MCP was not written by Dillinger, SARK is the embodiment of
his contributions to the system. The MCP is supposed to be a truely
Artificially Intelligent entity which "started as a chess program",
back when Gibbs was a young hacker. Mostly it programmed itself.

There was also some crack about TRON being "...a 50 year old's idea of
what kids would like ...". The basic story of TRON was by Steve
Lisberger who is currently 31 years old. I can't think of anyone who
was in a major creative position who was older than 38. No "old Disney
hands" had any significant input to this project. Remember, "The
Secret of NIMH" (no not the National Institutes of...) was the Disney
movie that Disney didn't make and TRON was the non-Disney movie that
Disney produced.

-c

------------------------------

Date: 16 July 1982 17:16-EDT
From: Andrew Scott Beals <BANDY at MIT-AI>
Subject: TRON

I'm replying to Chuck's message replying to me.

I guess I can accept (sort of) an alter-ego approach to programs.

However, I can ``feel'' this a lot better in an operating system than
in a program.

Take, for instance, UNIX(tm). It's a GREAT system to develop software
on...to me, it feels comfortable (v7 sh), but I prefer C-shell
(written not by Bourne at Bell, but by someone at Berkeley). I can
feel the difference between the two.

Hopping to (ugh!^3) EXEC-8 is one hell of a shock. From an environment
which promotes experimenting and poking I end up in an environment
which is openly hostile to everyone, including the people who wrote it
(personally, I think that they're all on death row awaiting
execution...).

However, personifying them seems a bit far-fetched. It seems that this
is just a matter of personal ability to suspend disbelief (ramble,
ramble...).
                                        - Andy

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 1357-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Programs mirroring authors

I went to a seminar a few months ago in which the topic was the
program/ programmer interactions.  The fellow had a number of
examples of how the program closely mirrors the environment around it.
For example, groups working with the IBM team concept ( a hierarchical
structure, a manager with about 7 subordinates (teams or proggers))
tended to produce code with lots of subroutine calls, and definite
hierarchical flow of control, while more democratic teams produce
co-routines, agenda driven mechanisms, etc.  He also told about a
company that wanted to create a two pass compiler. They put 6 proggers
on it who worked best in three teams of two, and created a three pass
compiler.  Another interesting note was that the proggers tend to
think that the higher level code is interesting and needs more work,
while managers generally tend to feel that the nitty-gritty code is
what needs to be worked on!

This kept coming into my mind when I saw TRON.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 05:09:23-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley
Subject: Origin of Tron

Anyone who has used Microsoft Basic can tell you that TRON is the
command that turns on statement execution tracing, listing the line
numbers of statements as they are executed. (I hope no one makes a
movie called TROFF...)

                                        James Jones
                                        duke!uok!uokvax!jejones

------------------------------

Date: 16 July 1982 13:57 edt
From:  York.Multics at MIT-MULTICS (William M. York)
Subject:  shadows

Craig,
  The shadows mentioned by people were REAL shadows that intruded into
the animation via whatever rotoscoping technique was used (it looked
like blue-screen or something).  It was most noticible when the guard
is walking across the transparent tops of the holding cells where
Flynn, RAM, and Tron are held prisoner.
                Bill

[ Forwarded by Craig W. Reynolds  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI> -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 1831-PDT
From: Craig W. Reynolds  <REYNOLDS at RAND-AI>
Subject: Re: shadows

I remember the scene you mention. I didn't see that set myself, but I
think there was actually a shiney transparent sheet that the guard was
standing on, and that the "extra" image was a reflection, not a
shadow. Since the set pieces were flat black, it was usually easy to
lose any shadow in the photo-roto step.  Also the lighting for the
original photography of the "electronic world" was always very flat
and diffuse to reduce shading and shadowing of the white (with black
"circuits") costumes.

-c

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 18 July 1982  00:01-EDT
From: G.JMTURN at MIT-EECS
Subject: TRON and the real world.

I just got back from seeing TRON, and in one respect, I think the
movie comes very close to reality. Let me demonstrate by way of a
question: In what way is Dillenger and the MCP different than your
local sysop and operating system? Answer: The sysop makes less money.

Ah, you argue, but the MCP stole programs, an operating system is
supposed to prevent this! The problem is that given an OS, someone has
to have the key. This person then has access to all the data on the
system. Now, in theory, the people running the system are supposed to
be responsible. But in reality, the kind of people attracted to this
kind of work are the last people you want doing it. I have found that,
like in any "enforcement" situation, the enforcers tend to go off on a
power trip.

Reality copies fiction still more. This week, someone used a wheel
account on MIT-OZ to do nasty things. What was the reaction of the
system managers? They revoked most of the wheel and operator accounts.
Now if I can just forge myself a level 6 account...gee, where did that
laser come from...?

Note: That wasn't a true bit! It was Tri-state.

                                        James

P.S. I'm not saying that all system managers are twits, but most that
I've had occasion to meet are. It something like security at a con,
anyone who want to do it should be the last person to pick.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #24
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 3:55AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #24
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 24 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:
    SF Books - "True Names" & "Nightflyer" & Heavenly Breakfast &
           Star Colony & Roderick & The Jade Enchantress &
            ET: The Extra-Terrestrial & The Wrath of Khan,
               SF TV - HHGttG, SF Music - Blade Runner,
    SF Movies - TRON & Das Boot,  Random Topics - American Films,
      SF Topics -  Stine Query,  Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1982 1122-EDT
From: BLACKWELL at CMU-20C
Subject: True Names

Indeed a hard book to find, but well worth the trouble of looking for
it.  It is realy the second novella in a two novella set - Dell SF
Binary Star #5. The two stories are ``Nightflyer'' by George R. R.
Martin, and ``True Names'' by Verner Vinge. I've seen the book filed
under both names, so be sure to look carefully.

If you are in Berkeley, a SF/Fantasy store called `Dark Carnival' on
Telegraph had several copies last time I checked...

                -mike-

------------------------------

Date: 27 July 1982 07:58 mst
From: Lippard at PCO-MULTICS (James J. Lippard)
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Samuel R. Delany

A book I would recommend for understanding Delany is "Heavenly
Breakfast", by Delany.  It is an essay about time he spent in a
commune, and by reading it you can see where he got a lot of material
for "Dhalgren".

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 25 Jul 1982 17:30-PDT
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Star Colony, by Keith Laumer

Mini-Review: A disappointment to a long-standing Laumer fan.

Review:  "Aha!" I said.  At long last a new Laumer book.  Both types
of Laumers are always quite good:  the Retief books (in small or
medium doses) are hilarious, and the action books, where we (and
probably Laumer) don't (doesn't) know where the books are going until
they get there.

Star Colony is neither type.  It's an attempt at something sort of
serious, with a disjointed plot and dull characters.  When I was 1/4
of the way through I would have given up for any random author, but I
plugged through merely out of respect for all the other Laumer books
that I like.  Occasionally there is a flash of Retief-like humor, or a
run of action, but even they seem out of place in the mostly serious
treatment of unlikely colonists and more unlikely intelligent aliens.

Star Colony is the first of a three-book series about one of the first
colonies from Earth, planted on an Earth-like planet and then
forgotten while Earth goes through the usual problems.  The story
deals with initializing the colony and the experiences of several
groups of early colonists.  The dust jacket says this book is the
result of a four-year effort.  I wish he had concentrated on more
Imperium, Lafayette O'Leary, or something else.

Hardbound $15.95, St. Martin's Press, (c) 1981.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 1982 16:19:19-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley
Subject: Roderick

Gee, I'd think for sure that there was some discussion of John
Sladek's *Roderick, or the Education of a Young Robot* in SF-LOVERS.
Perhaps it's in an archive somewhere?

(I enjoyed it thoroughly--the idea of all those school administrators,
Herberts though they might be, not realizing Roderick was *not* human,
is a tad much, but think of it as like the convention of ignoring the
puppeteers in bunraku. In a sentence, the same kind of madness,
perhaps tempered, that *The Mueller-Fokker Effect* had, plus a nifty
portrayal of Roderick, who could definitely pass the Turing test. So
when will we see parts two and three?)

                                        James Jones
                                        (duke!uok!uokvax!jejones)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 82 12:44-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: SF column

                           SCIENCE FICTION
                          By Roland J. Green
           (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    John Sladek's ''Roderick'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.75
paperback) reminded me very much of an electronic-age version of
Voltaire's ''Candide.'' The product of an experiment in artificial
intelligence at a second-rate university, Roderick the Robot is farmed
out for ''adoption'' when the grant that financed his creation is cut
off.  His adventures on his way to his new family, in school and in
his frequent wanderings give him a robot's-eye view of modern society.
They give Sladek an ideal vehicle for satire.
    Novel-length satires frequently don't work well as stories,
however successful the satire may be. Sladek, however, knows the
novelist's craft - just as well, because this is the first book of yet
another trilogy. The pacing is brisk and the narrative is as easy to
follow as can reasonably be expected with such a large cast of
characters and an essentially episodic structure.
    Sladek seems to be well-informed about most of the things he
satirizes - or at least capable of drawing a convincing and consistent
picture of them. He hits gypsies, university politics, the CIA, art
critics, public education, the Catholic Church, visiting Oriental
potentates, television (it gives Roderick his initial notions about
how the world is run), the counterculture and much else. He darts from
one target on this list to the next, always with stiletto in hand.
    Occasionally Sladek lets his dislike - notably of the Catholic
Church - carry him into producing mindlessly savage caricatures. Most
of the time, though, he shows a mastery of both the novel and satire,
which promises well for the ''Roderick the Robot'' trilogy.
    In E. Hoffman Price's graceful fantasy ''The Jade Enchantress''
(Del ReyBallatine, $2.75 paperback), a minor Chinese goddess begins
the story by seeking a mortal lover, a shrewd young farmer. Price
tells what follows from this with wit, sympathy for all of his large
cast of characters, a profound knowledge of Tang Dynasty China that
never slows the brisk pacing and a delightful savoring of Chinese
philosophy, sexual mores, magic and cuisine. Along with Price's ''The
Devil Wives of Li Fong'' (also a Ballatine paperback), this book
recalls the Judge Dee mysteries of Robert Van Gulik - an
extraordinarily effective use of another time and culture to bring a
new dimension to a genre.
    The novelization of a motion picture screenplay seldom produces a
worthwhile book. Both the raw material and the author are often less
than outstanding, entirely apart from the problems of translating a
story from one medium to another. However, two of this summer's most
popular science fiction films have given two excellent writers
material for a pair of thoroughly agreeable novels.
    William Kotzwinkle's ''E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial''
(BerkleyPutnam, $12.95 hardcover, $2.75 paperback) uses the author's
gift for surrealism and fantasy on a screenplay ideally suited for it.
Kotzwinkle faithfully re-creates the contrast between the marooned
alien scientist with his almost magical powers and the classically
conventional suburb where he lands. He also does excellent work with
the three main characters - the E.T., the boy who befriends him and
the boy's mother.
    Vonda McIntyre's ''The Wrath of Khan'' (TimescapePocket Books,
$2.95) does equal justice to an entirely different sort of raw
material - the second ''Star Trek'' novel. She has wit, good pacing, a
sound grasp of her characters (including some like Lt. Saavik, whom
the movie leaves poorly defined) and an entirely adequate
understanding of military institutions. She even tackles with some
success the various scientific improbabilities of the script, notably
the Genesis effect.

------------------------------

Date: 27 July 1982  08:52-PDT (Tuesday)
From: KING at KESTREL
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

        It's being aired 9:00 PM on channel 60 on Wednesdays.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 1545-EDT
From: Rich Schneider <ECG.RICH at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: HHGttG

I talked to someone in the programming office of WGBH (Boston PBS)
last Friday.  They have no current plans of airing HHGttH, gasp
*sigh*.  Let's start swamping them with letters.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 1982 at 1608-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: No BLADERUNNER soundtrack album?

According to the local record store, there isn't going to be any
soundtrack record of the BLADERUNNER music.  With all the hype the
movie got, and Vangelis being pretty hot property at present, this
seems strange.  Has anybody heard anything to the contrary, or any
reason why such a decision might have been made?

   John M. (via HJJH at UTEXAS-11)

------------------------------

Date: 17 July 1982  01:26-EDT (Saturday)
From: Robert A. Carter <CARTER at RUTGERS>
Reply-to: CARTER at RUTGERS
Subject: Yet Another TRON Review

Readers of SFL might find it interesting to compare the mixed reviews
TRON has received here with the reactions of one "serious" critic.

[The following are excerpts from a very long review in the Village
Voice, July 20, 1982.  The Voice (if there is anyone out there who has
never seen it) is a very successful kitsch-Left New York weekly, the
writers of which tend toward self-importance.  This is never more so
than when dealing with Film (not "movies").  Rickey is the second-
string Voice film critic.]


    Let a Million Microchips Bloom

    By Carrie Rickey

    * * *

    Congenial pioneer of the technoaesthetic vanguard, TRON is an
    original--formally, conceptually, and philosophically.

    * * *

    The imagery, so hard to verbally approximate, is nothing like any
    computer art I've ever seen.  Most so-called computer-generated
    art is interested in abstract or optical illusionism, which has a
    fascination as limited as that of a trompe l'oeil painting.  How
    compelling can an image of geometrical shape illuminated by
    Day-Glo color be, even though a computer, not a person, created
    it?  There are, however, fine arts equivalents to TRON.  Much of
    it has the hallucinatory radiance, the indeterminate space, of the
    paintings of Ed Paschke, whose canvases typically depict people
    and places irradiated with unearthly light.  Searching for an
    artworld technique applicable to TRON, I'd have to call it a
    computer silkscreen.  Like Rauschenberg or Warhol, Lisberger is
    interested in layering images and effects to give a simultaneous
    impression of flatness and depth.  To get the look of TRON's
    computerworld, Lisberger filmed the actors in black and white on
    bare sets, reducing their gestures to Kabuki-like formality.
    Color and backgrounds were added afterward by matte, animation,
    computer- and hand-painted enhancements, so the multi-stage
    silkscreen metaphor is particularly apt.

    * * *

    TRON disarmingly demonstrates that the most sophisticated and
    intimidating technology can be mastered by engaging schlepps and
    nerds who have decided not to let it master them.  It's an
    incredible document of propaganda, exulting in and demystifying
    computer power.  Ultimately, its narrative is not unlike that of
    STAR WARS, ever about the triumph of the democrats over the
    plutocrats.  But I've never seen a blossoming of democracy quite
    as spectacular of TRON's people's purge of the MCP, which lets a
    million microchips bloom, the MCP tower of power redistributed to
    a galaxy of small energy centers.

    Possibly the first movie to celebrate computer populism, TRON
    could warm the cockles of a digitizer's heart with its mix of low
    sentiment and high tech.  While sensibility and computer
    intelligence have long been considered mutually exclusive, in TRON
    their conjunction is exhilarating, and the move goes so far as to
    say that to exist at all both must coexist.  To say that TRON
    envisions technology as it has never been seen before is an
    understatement.  No movie more deserves the praise, state of the
    art.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 1143-PDT
From: Jwagner at OFFICE
Subject: Das Boot & the failure of American film makers

"(Das Boot) is a powerful and moving picture; seeing it after this
summer's crop of Spielbergian sentimentality is a good reminder of
what real movies are about.  See it." -- Robert A. Carter
<Carter@Rutgers>
I couldn't agree more!  I also agree that the movie has many elements
of the best in Science Fiction -- in fact, I found it similar to Alien
in mood, although the "monster" in Das Boot is the American destroyers
cutting the waters above, sending depth charges below.  Great!

Comparing this movie to the current crop of SF thrillers is entirely
fair and warranted.  It's a real indictment of American (Hollywood)
movie making -- it seems all we can produce are more of the same ol'
techno-thriller-whiz-bang genre, but, unfortunately, those are the big
money makers.

SF movies tend to rely on fancy effects and ignore the more subtle
aspects of fine-film making.  In ET, Spielberg produced a sensitive
and insightful film for children who (presumably) are more easily
entertained than adults.  When is an SF director going to produce a
thoughtful and emotionally stimulating film for grownups?  Don't try
to pawn BladeRunner as such a movie -- it relies entirely on special
effects and gratuitous violence (aimed mostly at women) and therefore
is an utter cinematic failure (not counting its flawed, jig-saw-puzzle
plot).  Tron, Star Trek II, and the others are visually exciting, but
little else.  It's a shame that SF movie makers are squandering the
genre for the sake of big bucks.

Jim Wagner/jwagner@office

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1982 20:11:21-PDT
From: cbosg!nscs!jpj at Berkeley
Subject: G. Harry Stine

In SF-LOVERS Digest, V7 #1, there was a reference to G. Harry Stine,
where he was billed as, "everybody's favorite futurist."  Years ago,
when I was heavily involved w/model rocketry, I read and put to good
use a book by a G. Harry Stine on that topic - it was an excellent
book.  Is this the same individual?  If so, what is his background
that would qualify him as the above quote indicates?

Cheers...
Jim Jenal

------------------------------

Date: 22 July 1982 11:03-EDT
From: Reilly F. Hayes  <RLYEH at MIT-AI>


        The last SF-LOVERS submission from VASAK (Tom VASAK) was
actually not from Tom Vasak. I thought that I included a note to the
effect that it was from me.  AI wasn't receiving network links that
day , so I used Tom's username to make the submission. I am really


                                        Rlyeh@MIT-AI

------------------------------
Date: 07/20/82 17:26:16
From: junkmail.umcp-cs@udel-relay (Sent by ___037)

Have you heard about the new candy that is available only via ARPAnet?

It's called TIP-TACs!
                                        - This is so bad that I won't
                                          even sign my name...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #25
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 4:36AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #25
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 25 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:
             SF Movies - Revenues & The Secret of NIMH &
       Blade Runner & Poltergeist & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial,
                     SF Topics - Books vs Movies,
                 Spoiler - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 1350-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: 11 Top-Grossing Films (week ending July 7) (source: Variety)



Ranks:  Last-week  =>This week
   Film Name (Rank Change + = up 1, - = down 1)
     Total to Date
        Weeks on Chart

1 => 1.  E T - The Extra-Terrestrial       $23,721,283 ( 4 weeks)
5 => 2.  Blade Runner (+++)                $ 4,363,497 ( 2 weeks)
3 => 3.  Rocky III                         $23,560,379 ( 6 weeks)
4 => 4.  Poltergeist                       $13,808,381 ( 5 weeks)
7 => 5.  Annie (++)                        $ 7,572,065 ( 7 weeks)
2 => 6.  Firefox (----)                    $ 7,134,092 ( 3 weeks)
6 => 7.  Star Trek II-Wrath of Kahn (-)    $15,664,867 ( 5 weeks)
8 => 8.  The Thing                         $ 2,559,139 ( 2 weeks)
9 => 9.  Author Author                     $ 2,304,756 ( 3 weeks)
10=>10.  Bambi                             $ 4,321,303 (15 weeks)
11=>11.  Megaforce                         $   972,272 ( 2 weeks)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 1982 05:36:47-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jab at Berkeley
Subject: The Secret of NIMH


The Secret of NIMH (I believe that's spelled right) is an experience.

The animation is very, very good. It puts Disney studios to shame
(note that I distinguish between present Disney Studios and the works
Walt Disney worked on.) I would compare this to Walt Disney at his
best --- it isn't *quite* as good, but extremely close.

And that's not even the good part!

The plot is similar to some of the plots Walt Disney pulled out of his
hat: not so intense as to frighten children, but interesting enough to
keep everybody well entertained.

I'll not say much more, except that I was pleased that Walt Disney's
craft is finally being followed.

        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 07/13/82 21:27:14
From: ZEMON@MIT-MC
Subject: The Secret of NIMH

        This is a /good/ movie.

        I haven't seen animation like this in YEARS.  Along with a
story THAT good . . . . I think Disney's blown it.  Again.  (Why'd
they ever let Bluth (?)  go, anyway?)

        Go see it.  (And take your family and friends, especially the
youngsters.)


-Landon-

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1982 0039-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Secret of Nimh

        Star Watch: Disney Deserters Create New Animated Film
                            By BOB THOMAS
                       Associated Press Writer

    HOLLYWOOD (AP) - On Sept. 13, 1979, Don Bluth led a band of fellow
artists out of Walt Disney studios. Almost three years and $7 million
later, the result of their exodus can be seen in the nation's
theaters.
    The MGM-United Artists release is called ''The Secret of NIMH,''
and its similarity to the classic Disney animated features is more
than coincidental. Bluth, Gary Goldman, John Pomeroy and the other 14
defectors vowed to carry on the Walt Disney traditions that they felt
were being stifled at the studio Disney had founded.
    Don Bluth Productions started in Bluth's garage and still operates
in a modest manner, with headquarters in a building behind a savings
and loan on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City. The atmosphere is more
confident now than it was when ''NIMH'' was in its early stages. The
company has now completed its first feature and has already embarked
on another.
    Bluth was in a state of high anticipation as the ''NIMH'' openings
approached. That's unusual for a man who is normally under total
control.
    ''We proved we could make a feature on schedule and on budget,''
he said ''Now we hope producers and exhibitors will be convinced there
is a future for animation. They will be - if our picture makes
money.''
    ''The Secret of NIMH'' is based on a Robert C. O'Brien book about
Mrs. Frisby, a resourceful mouse who tries to keep her family together
and seeks help from a number of forest animals, including a
superintelligent cadre of rats.
    The animation and effects are top grade, as are the voices: Dom
DeLuise, Elizabeth Hartman, John Carradine, Peter Strauss, Derek
Jacobi, Hermione Baddeley.
    Bluth said that he had learned much as leader of his own band of
artists.
    ''First of all, the value of story,'' he said. ''I bought five or
six how-to books and learned all about plot points and paradigms - the
rise-and-fall action of the story. I also realized that we needed a
comic and a villain. We turned Jeremy the crow into a comedian; the
villain came late, one of the rats.
    ''The second thing I learned was how to get along with people,''
Bluth said. ''Making an animated feature is not just drawing. It's
dealing with many artistic people who become angry and excited, hold
grudges and need to be convinced to get along with each other. That
part of my job was even harder than the story.''
    Bluth provided incentive for cooperation. He cut in all of the
staff - 140 at full production - for a share of the profits.
    ''They were told, 'This picture is something that you own, too.'
That was reason for them to dig down inside themselves and bring more
to the picture,'' said Bluth.
    ''The Secret of NIMH'' is a rarity this summer: a G-rated movie.
Most producers seek to avoid the G. Not Bluth.
    ''Producers believe that the teen-age market requires movies that
are fast, violent, sex or drug oriented,'' he said. ''That puts a real
burden on young people: To be treated as if they have no feelings.
    ''I'm encouraged by the big business being done by 'E.T.' Steven
Spielberg has put another diet on the plate of teen-age moviegoers, a
movie that is frankly sentimental. I'm hopeful that 'E.T.' will help
make room for other family pictures. Like 'The Secret of NIMH.'''

------------------------------

Date: 26 July 1982  13:05-EDT (Monday)
From: David H. Kaufman <CYPHER.KAUFMAN at MIT-AI>
Subject: Bladerunner

I enjoyed Bladerunner-the-movie, but felt that it did not live up to
Bladerunner-the-book.  Actually, the movie pulled from the book the
society and the characters names (but not the characters themselves)
and then went off on its own.  The combination of book (read first)
and movie I found interesting - they complement each other without
telling the same story; kind of like reading the book Star Wars only
more so.

Has anybody noticed yet that Harrison Ford can't act?  He's always
essentially the same character - luckily for him, the strong man with
a conscience roles are plentiful these days (This is not derogatory; I
rather enjoy the character he always ends up playing, I'm just amused
when I see Han Solo swing through Raiders, etc.).  Going off at a
tangent from my tangent, did anybody else keep seeing Star Wars and
Empire antics during Bladerunner?  Each time Deckard pulled off an
athletic stunt, I saw Luke or Han doing the same thing a few years ago
. . . .

Right, now I'll leave the poor movie makers alone and ask a simple
question: does anyone know when HitchHiker's Guide Book Three is
coming out? (And for all you who enjoyed the first two, I suggest that
you see if you can get your hands on the records, or tapes of the
radio play:  they're kind of the same situation I described above
about storylines.  But don't buy the records if you can avoid it -
they have a short life before they begin to fall apart.)  Hope I
haven't bored you too much,

Dave Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 82 2:03-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: flicks

Well, I've caught my two or three movies for the year. Here are some
short reviews for those of you who hate the long ones from the
newswires.

Poltergeist: ***
        More of Spielberg's Southern California suburban comedy-drama.
        The effects by ILM are excellent. The plot is a bit weak.
        Overall, I'd say it's worthwhile once for anyone in the teens
        or over. Not recommended for little kids. Very intense in
        places.

        "Last June, Spielberg paid $60,500 for the balsa wood sled
        with 'Rosebud' painted on it, featured with the poignant
        last scene of Citizen Kane. He said he wants to hang it over
        his desk to remind him of how important quality is in films.
        Maybe some day Rosebud will remind him that bigger, louder
        schlockier gimmicks, mixed with blood, violence, and ersatz
        science, are not enough to make a motion picture memorable."
                Martin Gardner, in Discover

E.T.: ** 1/2
        More of Spielberg's Southern California suburban
        comedy-fantasy.  Perhaps a great children's film but tiresome
        otherwise.  I still think The Black Stallion from 1980
        surpasses it and touches adults much better too, not to
        mention TBS's more beautiful photography, lyrical hypnotic
        island sequences, and haunting score.  E.T. is awfully mushy
        in places but hysterical in others (school-room). Overall, I'd
        say it's worthwhile for any children. Adults might get bored
        in places.  I did.

        "Spielberg sides with the children so wholeheartedly that he
        reduces them and their adversaries alike to two-dimensional
        characters. Bad guys start chasing good guys, and this film,
        racing at the pace of a video game, becomes little more than
        a slick thriller. The viewer feels manipulated, as by a
        tear-jerker or a sitcom. All special effects stops are pulled
        for the climax. Spielberg's technical mastery is indisputable.
        If he ever grows up, he has the tools to make a film that is
        truly out of this world."
                John Stickney, in Discover

Just to give some sense of how I feel about Spielberg, his only movie
that has really impressed me is the TV movie Duel.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 82 18:59:40 EDT  (Tue)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: E.T.

George Will had an interesting comment about E.T. in the July 19
"Newsweek":

        Throughout the movie, [scientists] have been hunting the little
        critter, electronically eavesdropping on the house and
        generally acting like Watergate understudies....  But what is
        bothersome is the animus against science, which is seen as a
        morbid calling for callous vivisectionists and other unfeeling
        technocrats....  Hostility to science is the
        anti-intellectualism of the semi-intellectual.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1982 2221-EDT
From: James M. Turner <G.JMTURN at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Is film/video going to take over SF

I just saw E.T., and the quality of the film brings up some serious
questions about the viability of written SF.  E.T. could very well win
the Oscar if nothing *really* spectacular comes along (co-staring
Jesus as Bob the mailman, or something along those lines.)  In a year
when nothing seems to be coming out of the top SF authors but rehashed
plots and characters, the high quality and quantity (Gee Phil, these
things make money...) of SF films acts as a dramatic counter-pointer.
In the past, the inability of the camera to capture what minds could
imagine has restricted the impact the movie industry could make on SF.
But recent improvements in special effects make me wonder if the
written medium may not be inferior. Where is it written in stone that
books must be better than movies. Is this an elitist attitude? 1000
years ago, you didn't have mass market paperbacks. Everyone told
stories. Now the art of story telling is almost gone. Should we lament
the possible passing of written SF, or should we exalt in a new way to
experience the wonders of imagination? I'll leave it to you to
decide...

                                        James

(One in a continuing series of attempts to divert SFL from movie
reviews)

------------------------------
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 4:36AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie
ET: The Extra-Terrestrial.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1638-PDT
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Cardiac Arrest in E.T. - *SPOILER*

Like the rest of the civilized world, I thoroughly enjoyed E.T. but I
strongly question the believability of the medical aspects of the
film.  After E.T. is found lying gravely ill on the bathroom floor, he
is hooked up to the mobile Intensive Care Unit while heroic efforts
are being made to keep him alive.  He subsequently deteriorates and
has an arrest.  The medical accuracy of the resussitative effort was
impeccable--in fact, instead of using actors they incorporated medical
people to go through the motions of reviving E.T.--something which
becomes an automatic action to doctors.  It was therefore an excellent
depiction of a real "code" (medical jargon for reviving efforts after
a cardiac arrest) but this was not a human being!  The EKG, blood
pressure, drugs used, etc. were particular for human physiology and
anatomy.  clearly, E.T. was quite different than humans in more than
appearance--esp. his abilities to heal by touching.  Medical
procedures for a code were developed with knowledge of where blood
vessels are, etc.  It would be incredibly unlikely that they could
even figure out where to insert IV lines, let alone know which drugs
to use and in what doeses.  One could say that the believability
standards in E.T. are lower than in most other SF films because of its
fairy tale tone and the fact that Spielberg has a history of not
playing close attention to such details in his films.  But given the
large amount of screen time devoted to the fine details of the
resussitative efforts (including the liberal use of medical jargon),
there should have been more consideration of the unlikliness of the
situation.

--Michael (FIRST @ SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #26
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 5:00PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #26
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
  SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & 2010 & Windhaven,
       SF Movies - Destination Moon & Computercide & The Thing,
           SF Topics - Short vs Long & Series & Brain Use,
                 Random Topics - Dolphin User Group,
         Humor - Genderless Video Games,  Spoiler - The Thing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1982 2056-EDT (Sunday)
From: Kevin.Dowling at CMU-10A
Subject: query (whats the title and author)


Someone recently (within the past few years) wrote a novel which
discussed juggling among aliens with more than two arms..  Does
anyone remember this? I'm guessing Spider Robinson but am probably
wrong.

                                        nivek

[  You are probably thinking of Lord Valentine's Castle, by Robert
   Silverberg (1979).  The aliens were the Skandars, and they jugled
   with four arms.  --  Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 at 1112-CDT
From: Clyde W. Hoover <clyde at utexas-11>
Subject: 2010 preview

        I just got my September issue of Playboy, which, in addition
to its' usual material, contains an excerpt from Clarke's '2010:
Odyessey Two', his sequel-in-progress to '2001: A Space Odyessey'.

        First impressions: Pretty good stuff. Clarke seems to have
gotten back to writing about fanastic worlds and life forms and less
about technological wonders (as in 'The Fountains of Paradise').
Clarke has a fine imagination about extraterrestial life forms (as in
'Meeting With Medusa').

        If the fleshed out book reads as good as this excerpt, it
should be prime Clarke.

        I have one major problem with this story though. '2010'
follows the movie rather than the book, (which I prefer as being a
polished version of the movie). The monolith is in orbit about Jupiter
(the mystery of Iatepus's differing brightness was very nicely used in
the '2001' book), but the most glaring deviation is that the book ends
with the Starchild detonating all of the orbital bomb platforms and
gazing down at his new domain. There is, at least in this excerpt (I
am waiting for the last installation in December), no mention of this.

        So this promises to be a good story (thankfully - I wince at
sequels to self-contained stories such as '2001').

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 82 12:03-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: review of WINDHAVEN

WINDHAVEN, by George R.R. Martin and Lisa Tuttle
           Timescape Books

This is a rather pleasant book which is actually three strongly linked
novella's with some additional padding material.  The first novella
"Storms" was published in a 1975 Analog.  The second, "One-Wing" was
published in a 1980 Analog, and presumably the last, "The Fall" and
the padding material were written most recently to form the book.
Considering all this, it hangs together fairly well as a
quasi-adventure.

Without giving away too much (most of this is on the cover), it's safe
to say that the book is about a female in a non-technical society on a
planet called Windhaven.  The inhabitants are actually descendents of
space colonizers but seem to have lost most of the science the
colonizers must have possessed.  Apparently the colonizers
crash-landed many years earlier after a lengthy trip on a light-sail.
The sail has been turned into wings for a subset of the colonizers.
Because of the low gravity and dense atmosphere, these Flyers can
actually fly.  The book is about various conflicts within this
female's mind and how she copes with Flyer society and Land-Bound
society.

This character (and the others) are fleshed out well.  The book is
good and rather touching at the end, but I would not say it is a great
book.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 27 July 1982 0852-EDT
From: Nathaniel.Borenstein at CMU-10A
Reply-to: Nathaniel.Borenstein at CMU-10A
Subject: Destination Moon

I saw this 1950 movie on TV the other night, expecting the usual
amusing 1950's-SF nonsense.  I was greatly surprised by the general
scientific accuracy of the movie (although the atomic-powered rocket
was done rather naively), and was eagerly awaiting the credits to see
who was responsible for getting the facts right.  Unfortunately,
Pittsburgh TV stations seem to regard credits as completely optional,
and they were omitted entirely.  Anyone out there have any idea who
was (or were) the brains behind "Destination Moon" and its startling
rationality?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 2203-PDT
From: Daul at OFFICE-3 (William B. Daul)
Subject: TV Movie On Sunday Night (NBC)

Looks like a real classic (ha, ha).  NBC has "COMPUTERCIDE" as it's
sunday night movie.  Check local listings for times near you.  --lliB

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 82 5:26-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: short vs. long SF fiction

I've finally come to the depressing conclusion, after many frustrating
tries at reading longer forms of SF, that very few SF authors have any
reasonable control over novel-length fiction.  Le Guin first comes to
mind as one who demonstrates competence.  Tiptree/Sheldon can write
very fine novels but chooses to stay with short forms.  I predict that
Varley will mature and produce some major novel-length fiction in the
next few years.  His attempts so far have been unconvincing, in my
opinion.  Herbert, Heinlein, Niven, Farmer, Dick, and many others
leave me rather flat.

This is no revelation.  I discard 80% of SF novels before finishing
them due to lack of interest, poor writing, or more frequently lack of
control by the author in the novel structures.  The latter can display
itself in various ways: plot inconsistent or loose, characters
unconvincing and/or boring, a lack of overall purpose.  Lately I have
been moving more and more into mainstream fiction (Nabokov, Conrad,
etc.) for authors who demonstrate complete control over the novel
structure.  In SF, I now limit myself almost exclusively to short
fiction (short stories, novelettes, novellas).

Hugo and Nebula collections seem worthwhile.  I was quite impressed by
the first two stories in Nebula 15: Jack Dann's "Camps" and George R.
R.  Martin's "Sandkings".  Vernor Vinge's "True Names" in Binary Star
#5(?) is another impressive story.  Terry Carr's "The Best SF of the
Year #nn" is almost always worthwhile.  Less so are Don Wollheim's
yearly collections .  The John Campbell award nominees collection is
sometimes interesting for sensing new talent.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1982 14:02:25-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: State of the Art

   No, it only says bad things about the state of commercial SF; the
Hugoes have generally been on the conservative side unless something
new and really spectacular came out (SNOW QUEEN, DREAMSNAKE). Note
that someone has guessed that one of the other two books could be New
Sun III (Gene Wolfe---SWORD OF THE EXCRUCIATOR, or some such), which
makes the situation worse in your view. Also, FRIDAY is not especially
linked to an old set of characters---especially considering the
primary link appeared in one novelet.

[  This is in response to a submission that appeared in volume 5,
   issue 73, on the high probabilities of sequels winning Hugo awards.
   -- Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 1982 1256-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL submission

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #19 )

(ihuxi!otto at Berkeley) Attempting to measure the percentage of the
brain used by measuring the amount of oxygen used and relating that to
firing rates of neurons seems to imply that a neuron is only being
"used" when it is firing.  Imagine how useful a computer would be if
all its gates went high simultaneously!!

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1982 2123-PDT
From: T. C. Rindfleisch <Rindfleisch at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: Xerox 1100 (Dolphin) User Group

This is to announce formation of a network user group for Xerox 1100
workstations (Dolphins).  Its purpose is to stimulate communication
and sharing between computer science research groups that are using or
are interested in these machines.  It differs from the WORKS group in
that it will focus on issues particular to Dolphins rather than on
workstations in general.

Xerox PARC and EOS people are included in the distribution list to
facilitate communications about new developments, bugs, performance
issues, etc.  As with all network interest groups, however, this is
*NOT* to be used as a vendor advertising vehicle.

User Group Mechanics --

1) Network Addresses:

        Dolphin-Users@SUMEX-AIM For mail distributed to the
                                        entire user group

        Dolphin-Requests@SUMEX-AIM For distribution list
                                        maintenance, i.e., additions,
                                        deletions, problems, etc.

2) Mail Handling:  SUMEX-AIM will serve as the expansion point for
    routing messages to group members.  We run XMAILR and so can route
    between most of the current internet community.

3) Administration:  Initially, messages will be sent to the list as
    submitted.  Depending on the volume of mail, content, etc.,
    messages may be collected and digested in the future.

I have assembled a list of known Dolphin users and liaisons from
various sources for this initial announcement.  Please pass the word
on to others you think might be interested.

Tom R.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 1442-PDT
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF (Martin S. Feather)
Subject: PacPuns

What happens when two pacmen run into one another?
imPact.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 5:00PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discusses some plot details in the
movie The Thing.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 1015-PDT
From: WMARTIN at OFFICE-8
Subject: The Thing (Spoiler)

Just saw "The Thing" with a bit of wariness after Siskel & Ebert's
discussion of the "repulsiveness" of the effex on Sneak Previews.
They're not that bad, unless you find blood, gore, and body parts
especially unsettling.  (I guess there is a kind of personality that
really hates to be reminded of mortality and the fragility of flesh by
seeing dismembered bodies or surgical procedures, and this would
really get to them...)

I always nitpick, and find it hard to adopt the "willing suspension of
disbelief" you need to accept glitches or irrationalities in SF or
fantasy films that would just stop the plot or make the outcome
reverse if the logical action would be performed; that's why I usually
hate sitcoms, which base most of their plots on silly misconceptions
or someone trying to hide something needlessly.

Anyway, re "The Thing":

At the start, MacReady mentions that this is "the first week of
winter"; however, there follows a series of night-and-day shots.  In
Antarctica, at this season, I thought there would be constant twilight
for several weeks, with brief periods of low-on-the-horizon sunshine;
deep night wouldn't arrive for some more weeks.  Am I wrong in this?
The film has some bright daytime, and black nights, and then
everything is night, or takes place at night.  Didn't seem right...

Spoiler stuff following...

If the Thing blood independently tries to survive, why would the parts
of Thing bodies allow attack, like the thumb cuts?

If Things as humans kept their original forms after converting another
human into Thing, why did the dog Thing burst out of its body and
destroy it?  It could have converted individual dogs quietly and
safely.  (Yes, of course it was done that way to show a gruesome
special effect; here, I'm nitpicking plot.)

The Thing had some intelligence of its own; it started building the
small spaceship and knew what the detonator box was and took it away
before MacReady could set it off, yet it just reared up and growled at
him instead of grabbing him and it let him throw the dynamite at it.
And how did that set off the other dynamite emplacements?  They were
set for electrical detonation, and the single-stick explosion wouldn't
have done anything to set them off...

Major nitpick of all: if MacReady was right, and the Blair Thing just
wanted to hide and freeze until rescue missions arrived next spring,
why didn't it just run out into the ice and dig itself a hole, instead
of hanging around in/under the base?  (And when did Blair get
converted, anyway?  He was alone in the toolshed and too paranoid to
let anyone get close to him until after he became a Thing!)

Ah, so what...  It's a vehicle for effects, and plot is secondary.  Go
see it for the disgustingness alone...

Will Martin (at least I LOOK like him...)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #27
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, July 29, 1982 12:45AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #27
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:
                      SF Topics - Movie Reviews,
       SF Movies - THX 1138 & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
              Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 July 1982 05:30-EDT
From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" <QUIDLY at MIT-AI>
Subject: Anti-movies

I'm not much of a movie-fan myself, (as jcwinterton in V6#1 and
Schumacher in V6#8), so I appreciate the effort that goes into
supplying digests that are more segregated by topic than in the past.
That way, I can skip whole digests consisting of nothing but MORE
comments on ET or TRON.  Keep up the good work, Jim!

Along this same line, I think everyone would approve of moving those
long movie reviews, especially the ones plucked off the APwire, to the
rear of the digest.  That way, those who aren't interested in them, or
who have already read them in their local newspaper, can skip them
with greater ease.

                                        --dick smith

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 05:21:24-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley
Subject: #$)*$%)(* Movie Reviews

Will whoever/whatever is sending in those movie reviews from the press
please CUT IT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a lot of intelligent discussion/commentary on SFL, but those
just don't qualify. They don't agree with me (take that any way you
want to, you'll have it right), and I don't agree with them. They
don't even agree with each other! These people give me the impression
that they slept through the movie, then wrote something down to
collect a paycheck. They miss the plot, the names & the dialog.

SFL is wonderfull, but it's not worth wading through those things for.
Please stop, so I can continue reading SFL with some pleasure.

        mike
        (decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm@ucb)

Electronic Junk Mail Doth Exist!
        mike

[  As long as outside reviews are sent to the digest they will
   continue to be distributed.  These reviews do serve a significant
   portion of the readership, and they are instructive, no matter how
   much any of us may disagree with them.  However, it is also a
   matter of policy to give preference to contributions from the
   readership on a given topic, and to use other editing techniques to
   minimize the impact of any material of limited interest upon the
   entire readership (thus the recent alteration between "regular" and
   "movie" digests).  --  Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 82 21:42:52-PST (Wed)
From: Stephen Willson <willson.uci@UDel-Relay>
Subject: THX 1138

  I realize that what I am about to say is a bit dated, but concerning
the big discussion some time back about THX 1138 showing up again and
again in Lucas' movies:

  In "American Graffiti", there is a car license plate which reads
(fanfare please!) "THX 138".


------------------------------

Date: Thursday, July 29, 1982 12:45AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some readers may not wish to
read on.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1982 1849-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Flights of Fancy

        These are a few flights of fancy that have been in the back of
my mind for a while.  Thot I'd pass them along for comments, etc.

        WHAT IF V'ger had been thrown back in time, and landed back on
earth in 1939, when the Lost Ark was opened?

        WHAT IF V'ger had met Nomad?

        WHAT IF V'ger had met the Planet Killer?

        WHAT IF V'ger had met the giant amoeba?

        WHAT IF Nomad had met the Planet Killer?

        WHAT IF Nomad had met the giant amoeba?

        (as you can see, there are many possibilities...)

        WHAT IF the Battlestar Galatica arrived at earth in the Star
Trek time period?

        WHAT IF the Cylons joined forces with the Klingons?

        (Can you imagine the Galatica with warp nacelles, or the
Enterprise with landing bays?)

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 14:30:27-EDT
From: Bob.Zimmermann at CMU-ZOG at CMU-10A
Subject: Spock Must Die

      Come on now folks, the man (sic) is dead.  What is the point in
reincarnating him except for more bucks for Paramount and the Trekie
souvenir pushers?  R.I.P.

                        R. Zimmermann
                        (MI - CEC)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 1982 14:37:57-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: STAR TREK character aging (non-spoiler)

   I didn't see the ST special you describe, but I recall McCoy as
always being sort of craggy (maybe he just looked bad in the interview
because of the combination of no makeup and TV lights?). The biggest
problem with going back to ENTERPRISE-as-she-was is Scotty (James
Doohan); he seems to have gone through the same sort of change that
hit Jimmy Stewart and Frank Sinatra (50%+ greater weight,
well-distributed), except that he's visibly pudgier in the movies than
in the TV episodes.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 09:05 CDT
From: Johnston.DLOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #22

In regards to Shatner's acting ability:

I agree that in the two Star Trek movies, he hasn't seemed quite
right.  It was like he was having to overplay the part to avoid being
wooden.  However, I have seen him live in a one-man show which he
toured around several universities about five years ago, and he was
very impressive.  He didn't do any JTKirk, but rather a monologue
comprised of stories about Galileo and such.  In this show, he was
properly animated, really entered into the parts he played, and gave
an overall excellent performance.  And if we get right down to it,
Star Trek is fairly shallow anyway, although I certainly wouldn't miss
a movie, and saw all the episodes in the series what seemed like
dozens of times.  It's FUN, not intellectual.  The science in the
whole series is too far off to be very intellectual, but it provides
adventure, which everyone is finding out that they still crave.

Rick

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1933-PDT
From: Jon Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
Subject: TWOK - Why Checkov survived the Ceti Eel


Khan said that 20 of his crew members died because of that thing, and
I suspect they did, and without proper medical attention, Checkov
could have died too.

McCoy was fortunately right there with his bag of salt shakers and toy
tv (tricorder), and miniature bicycle pump (injection tool) full of
all those modern healing things. Also Checkov had the whole Sick Bay
worth of medical wonders to insure that he would have lived.

It would seem to me that you would need all your physical health to
survive Ceti Alpha V's climate now, and after that creature sapped all
of your strength, and you became unconscious; it just left for a more
ample food supply.

Cheers,
--Jsol

p.s. you can also die of Snake Poisoning if you don't get medical
attention shortly after you are bitten by a snake. It's not so
unbelievable that Checkov survived where the genetically superior
beings did not.

------------------------------

Date: 07/21/82 02:05:48
From: DMM@MIT-ML
Subject: Re:Random comments about ST-TWOK & TRON.

  I maintain that the reason Chekhov was the one selected by the
writers to beam down to Khan's planet was that traditionally, he was
the one most often called upon to emit agonized screams.  I seem to
recall him screaming and displaying horrified expressions in more
episodes of the series than any other regular in the show.
  Also, about spock's reincarnation... Remember, TWOK was brought to
you by none other than Harve Bennett, the same one who miraculously
reincarnated the bionic woman after she had been declared dead, just
because it looked like the ratings would have dropped otherwise.

  Did it bother anyone else that in TRON not only was there no shield
behind the orange that they were zapping, but that there was a CRT
directly in the line of fire?  Now really...

             Cheers -- DMM@MIT-ML

------------------------------

Date: 19 July 1982 09:46-EDT
From: Richard Pavelle <RP at MIT-MC>

Who did Tyrell shoot (before himself) in the center of the planet?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 22:57:27-PDT
From: npois!npoiv!harpo!decvax!duke!unc!mcnc!idis!mi-cec!rwg at
From: Berkeley
Subject: Why Kirk left shields down (slight spoiler)

Recall from the novel of the first ST movie that the Enterprise crew
was chosen for "limited mental agility;" Starfleet wanted to see if a
shipload of dullards could handle the stress of a 5-year mission
better than the honor graduates usually assigned to starships.
    Not only does this explain why the Enterprise shields were left
down in TWOK, it explains certain statements from the series:
        "Captain, are they surrendering?"
        "The M-5 must be destroyed!"
        "...1 to the nth power..." (I forget what n was)

------------------------------

Date: Mon Jul 19 13:09:02 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: Why M5 did not know the prefix codes to disable ships.

It would seem to me that these prefix codes are TOP TOP secret, and
known only to commander rank officers such as Captain Spock and
Admiral Kirk.  They would have to be very secret, for anybody with
knowledge of the codes could take over the whole of star fleet in days
without a shot.  They are very useful, though, since they can stop an
enemy who has taken over a star fleet ship (like Khan).

The important thing to remember is that the codes are NOT in the
computer, and the computer probably isn't conscious of its own code.
(You could not ask, "computer, what is your code", for example) M5
would not be given these babies for a test run.

------------------------------

Date: 18 July 1982 12:48-EDT
From: James M. Turner <JMTURN at MIT-AI>
Subject: Shields coming down sir!

Why didn't M-5 use the magic code numbers? Because they aren't stored
on-line, most likely. Better yet, they are stored on-line, but hidden
somewhere (square root of the registration number of the ship times
data of commission expressed as seconds past midnight, January 1...)
Now, while its easy to remember the formula, and easy to work out in
nothing flat given a computer with the data, there's no way a computer
could figure it out without the formula. There's also probably no
interconnection between the receiver and the ship's computer, so M-5
couldn't know it's there.

                                        James

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #28
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #28
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 30 Jul 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:
              Administrivia - Transmission Difficulties,
                      SF Fandom - Hugo Ballots,
           SF Books - This Darkening Universe & Mallworld &
          Life,The Universe,and Everything,  SF TV - HHGttG,
                  SF Topics -  Stine Query Answered,
                   Humor - Genderless Video Games,
      SF Movies - Destination Moon & The Secret of NIMH & TRON &
            Blade Runner & The Thing,  Spoiler - The Thing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI
Subject: Transmission Difficulties

This week MIT-AI had serious difficulties, forcing it down for a few
days.  Many readers probably did not get their digests as scheduled
since AI is in their transmission path.  More importantly, all
submissions are routed via MIT-AI, and thus the digest itself was
temporarily suspended until they began flowing once again.

We are currently working on a more final resolution of this
difficulty.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 07/30/82 1000-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Hugo Ballot Responses

   The Hugo ballot was distributed on the net over two months ago.  At
that time, it was indicated that ballots could be returned for
counting.  Since then, but four responses have been received, even
though readers have had longer to vote than the members of the
WorldCon.

   Given that the active readership is somewhere between 750 and 1000,
and the total digest distribution is well over 2000, this is a much
lower percentage of voters than those members of the WorldCon who
vote.

   Therefore, unless a significant number of ballots are received by
AUGUST 15, the results will not be tabulated.  This gives readers a
full month longer than WorldCon members had to vote.

   The trend so far indicates one of three things.  1)Readers are too
busy to vote, 2)They don't care, or 3)They're all media freaks and
don't know what a printed page looks like (with the exception of hard
copies of this Digest.)

   Come on, gang.  Let's get that vote in.

                                                   Greg

------------------------------

Date: Thu Jul 22 02:27:40 1982
From: decvax!pur-ee!minn-ua!chris at Berkeley
Subject: Out of Print Book

I am trying to locate "This Darkening Universe" by Lloyd Biggle JR.
It has only been published in hardcover by Doubleday SF, 1975.  Anyone
know where I can obtain a copy?  I have been looking in used
bookstores for months.  All help appreciated...

Chris Boylan
University of Minnesota
decvax!pur-ee!minn-ua!chris or ihnss!ihps3!stolaf!minn-ua!chris
(612)376-5603

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 82 0:51-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: book review: MALLWORLD

MALLWORLD, by Somtow Sucharitkul, Starblaze Editions $4.95

Sucharitkul was given the Campbell award at last year's Worldcon for
best new writer.  At that con, he mentioned an upcoming collection of
his stories which would center on a gigantic shopping mall in space.
I thought the idea was excellent and eagerly awaited the book.

It is delightful!  He has an uncanny facility for coining new words.
There is much humor, lots of action, and three-dimensional characters.
I see a lot of similarities between his technophilic humans and
Varley's '8 Worlds' series and the characters that inhabit both.
Mallworld is obsessed with consumerism, capitalism, and individualism
but in a very grandiose manner.  All the stories are told in first
person by different people who have experiences in Mallworld. Dialogue
is good. Overall, I found this to be an impressive collection. He's
definitely someone to watch for.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 at 0954-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: HHGthG book #3

When Douglas Adams was here in Austin last spring to lecture on his
two books (which actually consisted more of reading passages than
anything, there was a short question-answer period, but not nearly
long enough) he said he was going next (after his lecture tour) to Los
Angeles to work with ABC TV on their new fall version of his stories,
then to New York quickly and then back to England to finish the third
book, "Life, The Universe, and Everything," which at that time was to
come out sometime next year (early 83?). Since I have heard the ABC
version of HHGttG as fallen by the wayside (sob!) I assume he is back
finishing the book now, I think he said he was about half way through.
Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer.
-ka

------------------------------

Date: 22-Jul-1982
From: MIRIAM HARVEY AT BERGIL
Reply-to: "MIRIAM HARVEY AT BERGIL c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

In my TV GUIDE for the week ending July 15th, on that Friday at 10:00
on channel WMNE (a Public station in Maine) the first episode of
HHGTTG was shown.  It was also shown the next day at 4:00 on the same
station.  Alas, I now get to read about HHGTTG being shown every week,
but cannot see it.  While WMNE is listed in my TV GUIDE, it can't be
received in it.  Oh the frustration. It is at least a sign/hope of the
possibility of seeing the British show of HHGTTG before the Americans
get a hold of it and muck it up in their usual way.

------------------------------

Date: "28-JUL-1982 14:40  "
From: GALAXY~OSTROWSKY AT MAIL-11 AT R2ME2
Reply-to: "GALAXY~OSTROWSKY AT MAIL-11 AT R2ME2 c/o" <Young at
Reply-to: DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Hitch-Hiker's Guide


Inspired by the news here of the TV show's appearance on U.S. public
television stations, I called the programming department of WGBH-TV.
The woman I spoke with indicated that they didn't have the show
scheduled for the next couple of months, but that a couple of other
people had already called in, requesting it, and she would pass the
word along to the powers that be at the station.

If you live in the Boston area and want to see the show, you should
pick up the phone and harass the station.  A few hundred calls will
give them something to think about.

--Jonathan Ostrowsky

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1982 17:41:08-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: G. Harry Stine

   who wrote SHUTTLE DOWN (as Lee Correy) and has been described as
"everyone's favorite futurist" (he's \my/ favorite example of an
engineer turned fruitcake), is indeed the one-time godfather of model
rocketry. He used to be at White Sands and was able to adapt some of
his knowledge and a lot of the safe practices to cardboard and balsa.

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1982 12:26 mst
From: Lippard at PCO-MULTICS (James J. Lippard)
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Re: G. Harry Stine

I was also heavily involved in model rocketry, and was a member of the
Valley of the Sun section of the National Association of Rocketry, the
section of which Mr. Stine is (or was, anyway) a leader.  He used to
work for NASA, now he mostly writes, science fact as G. Harry Stine,
science fiction under the name Lee Corey.  He also occasionally writes
for Omni and Analog.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1982 1738-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: PAC humour

        What does a PACMAN do in the great outdoors?  Why, he goes
back-pacing...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 10:46:02-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: scientific consultant on DESTINATION MOON

   was none other than Robert A. Heinlein, who was still in his mental
prime at that time; he had also majored (to the extent that anyone at
USNA "majors" in anything other than controlled slaughter) in
engineering at Annapolis. His books of the 40's and 50's usually
reflected the best technical knowledge then available (I wonder
whether anyone has considered republishing BEYOND THIS HORIZON and
changing all the mentions of 48 chromosomes to 46?).

[  Thanks also to Alan Katz (KATZ at USC-ISIF) and Bob Pendleton
   (Pendleton at UTAH-20) for answering this query.  -- Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1982 22:31-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: The Secret of NIMH

I think I might have said this once before, but Disney Studios didn't
LET Bluth go. He went, and took about half of the Disney animation
department with him. Bluth, who is one of the OLD time Disney people
(he worked with Walt on Snow White), refused to put up with the MBA's
and the yes-men that have invaded Disney since Walt's death to
continue putting out the drivel they have been producing in Walt's
name all this time. I don't blame him, and I hope that Disney Studio's
takes a long and close look at their product Vs. Bluths and the
appropriate reviews (I can't think of a published review that didn't
either explicitely say 'This is what Disney should make' or heavily
imply it.

chuck

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1982 00:37-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: TRON as Disney allegory

As a person who did work within the Disney organization for four
years, if there is an allegory to the actual 'takeover', it is
unconscious and/or a great secret from the Disney management. They
would NEVER allow a movie out that might imply they weren't doing
things in the way the great God Walter intended (which I think says it
all about the 'takeover' itself. Walt was NEVER afraid of critisicm.
He just never paid any attention). The Biggest problem with Disney
studios today is not that they are not doing things Walts way, they
are still trying to do it his way. They have not changed as the times
changed (which Walt was very good at), and they are mostly MBA types
that simply don't have the vision that Walt did.

Chuck

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1982  20:42-EDT (Wednesday)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J. Lecin) <LECIN at RUTGERS>
Subject: Blade Runner anachronism (non-spoiler) [15 Jul 1982, JIM at
Subject: RAND-UNIX]


Obvious Anachronism: Deckard has an obvious smallpox vaccination mark.

    I dunno.  I get the impression that Deckard is in his middle to
late 30's, if not OLDER.  That would make his youth in the late 1980's
or early 1990's.  Are we going to stop vaccinating in the next ten
years?

<Mijjil>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1982 16:18:21-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: re BLADE RUNNER anachronism (non-spoiler)

   I don't consider a smallpox vaccination mark to be an anachronism;
the last I heard, the final stages in the eradication of smallpox were
proving to be unexpectedly difficult, thanks to (among other things)
the continual flareups between Ethiopia and Somalia.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie The Thing.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1982  10:37-EDT (Thursday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: The Thing

Just read WMARTIN's review of The Thing.  This sounds *very* much like
a story I read a while back (3, 4 years?) in one of the best Science
Fiction collections, my copy of which has since disappeared.  Is The
Thing based on a story?  My memory of the plot is that an (ant)arctic
expedition digs up the (frozen) body of an alien space traveller, and
brings it back to their camp where they thaw it out and it comes
alive, begins changing shape and taking over other animals, humans,
etc.  In the end, they catch all the humanoid things by taking blood
samples which, now that they are separate from the human-thing, try to
avoid a hot needle in the test tube . . . .
        Does anyone remember title and/or author?
Dave Kaufman

[  The short story you are thinking about is "Who Goes There?", by
   John W Campbell.  --  Jim  ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-Jul  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #29
*** EOOH ***
Subject:	Number 029
Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #29
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 31 Jul 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS,
                  SF Topics -  Opinions from SU-LOTS
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI
Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS

The following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was
submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX).  It was thought
to be of interest to the readership.  Since LOTS is not on the net,
responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people
should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1982 1435-PDT
From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS
Subject: science fiction novels, 112 novels rated.

The following is  a list of  Sci-Fi novels that  I've read and  rated.
The  very  fact  that  I've  read  so  much  sci-fi  to  some   extent
disqualifies me as an acceptable judge since my tastes are now  pretty
jaded.  Here goes anyhow:

Poul Anderson
     The Man Who Counts                 A-
     Satan's Worlll Drag You Under      A+
     Midnight at the Well of Souls      B+
     Exiles at theWell of Souls         B
     The Web of the Chozen              C
     Lilith: A Snake in the Grass       A-
     Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold       A-
Arthur C. Clarke
     Rendezvous with Rama               A+
     2001: Space Odyssey                B
     Childhood's End                    B+
     The City and the Stars             A-
Hal Clement
     Mission of Gravity                 B+
     Star Light                         B
     Cicyle of Fire                     B+
     Needle                             B
David Dvorkin
     The Children of Shiny Moutain      B
Philip Jose Farmer
     The Maker of Universes             A-
     The Gates of Creation              B
     A Private Cosmos                   B
     Behind the Walls of Terra          B
     The Lavalite World                 B
     The Stone God Awakens              B
     To Yours Scattered Bodies Go       A
     The Fabulous Riverboat             A-
     Dark Design                        B
     The Magic Labyrinth                B
Robert L. Forward
     Dragon's Egg                       B
Donald F. Glut
     The Empire Strikes Back            C+
Stephen Goldin
     And not Make Dreams Your Master    A
     Assault on the Gods                B+
     The Eternity Brigade               B
     Mind Flight                        B
     A World CAlled Solitude            A+
Joe Haldeman
     All My Sins Remembered             A-
     Mind Bridge                        A+
     Worlds                             C+
     Forever War                        A+
Harry Harrison
     The Lifeship                       B+
     The Stainless Steel Rat            B+
     Death World                        B
     Make Room, Make Room               B
Frank Herbert
     Dune                               A+
     Dune Messiah                       B-
     Children of Dune                   C-
     Whipping Star                      C
     The Eyes of Heisenberg             C
Stephen Leigh
     Slow Fall to Dawn                  B+
David Lindsay
     A Voyage to Arcturus               A+
     Haunted Woman                      A+
Barry B. Longyear
     Manifest Destiny                   A-
     Circus World                       B+
     Elephant Song                      B-
     City of Baraboo                    B+
George Lucas (I'm rating the book not the movie)
     Star Wars                          C+
Ann McCaffrey
     Decision at Doona                  B
Larry Niven
     Ringworld                          A+
     Ringworld Engineers                A
     Inferno                            A+
     World of Ptaavs                    B
     Protector                          B
     The Flying Sorcerers               B
Alexei Panshin
     Star Well                          A+
     Thurb Revolution                   A
     Masque World                       A
     Rite of Passage                    A+
Robert Sheckley
     Immortality, Inc.                  B
     The Status Civilization            B+
Robert Silverberg
     The Book of Skulls                 A
     Hawksbill Station                  B+
     Lord Valentines Castle             A-
     The Man in the Maze                A+
     Nightwing                          A+
     A Time of Changes                  B+
     The Time Hopper                    B
     The Seed of Earth                  C+
     Tower of Glass                     B+
     Up the Line                        B
Clifford D. Simak
     Cemetery World                     B
     Shakespeare's Planet               B
     Way Station                        A+
     Why Call Them Back From Heaven     B
William Tedford
     Silent Galaxy                      B+
Walter Tevis
     Mockingbird                        A-
A. E. Van Vogt
     The Weapons Shops of Isher         B+
     The Weapon Makers                  B
     The Players of Null-a              B
     Slan                               B
Jack Vance
     Emphyrio                           A-
     Star King                          B-
     The Killing Machine                B-
     The Palace of Love                 B-
     The Face                           B-
     The Book of Dreams                 B-
     The Languages of Pao               A-
     The Last Castle                    A
     City of the Chasche                B
     The Dirdir                         B+
     Servants of the Wankh              B
     The Pnume                          B-
     Maske:Thaery                       B
Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
     Slaughterhose-Five                 B+
     Cat's Cradle                       A-
     Breakfast of Champions             B
     Sirens of Titan                    A
John Varley
     Titan                              A-
     Wizard                             B+


This completes the first list.  If there is sufficient interest I  can
probably generate another list of about  50 to 100 titles.  For  those
that are interested my favorite authors in order of preference:

     Robert Silverberg
     Larry Niven
     Joe Haldeman
     Stephen Goldin

The ratings for Star Wars, Empire Stikes Back, etc. are for the  books
and not  for  the  movies  connected  with  those  titles.   Generally
speaking movie books are bad.

I would appreciate receiving mail about  novels that I have not  rated
so I can read them and include them in the data base.

I am also  of the  opinion that  the movie  Blade Runner  is the  best
Sci-Fi flick of the summer.

                      G. Allen

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 1339-PDT
From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS
Subject: More Science Fiction Novels Rated

It has been brought to my attention that some significant authors were
not rated  in  my  previous  novel listing.   Although  this  was  not
intentional, I suspect there was a subconscious wish to avoid the more
famous authors, (everybody has their own opinions about them already).
To avoid  repetition  of comments  made  already I  shall  rate  these
authors anyway:

Issac Asimov
          Foundation Trilogy            A+
          The Gods  Themselves          C
Ray Bradbury
          Fahrenheit 451                B+
          The Martian Chronicles        B
          Illustrated Man               B-
Robert A. Heinlein
          Stranger in a Strange Land    A+
          Time Enough for Love          A
          The Moon is a Harsh Mistress  B+
          Citizen of the Galaxy         A-
          Starship Trooper              B
Ursula LeGuin
          The Dispossessed              A
          The Left Hand of Darkness     B+
Frederik Pohl
          Man Plus                      C+
          The Space Merchants           A-
          Gateway                       A+
          Jem                           B-

A difficulty represented by the old time authors like Vern, Wells,
Asimov, etc.  is that they have become "stylisticly obsolete".  Their
work when it originally appeared was the best rating A+, but later
authors used their work as a basis for new novels, with the result
that the old works would look old fashion or cliche.  Another problem
with Sci-Fi is that some authors tend to become ridiculously
overrated.  I do not fully understand the mechanism of this but I
suspect it has something to do with which author the reader used as
his introduction to Sci-Fi.  Larry Niven is my introducing author so
I've been very partial towards him.  I think alot of people started
with Ray Bradbury, who in my opinion is a very mundane author, which
has resulted in his excessive popularity.  Ursula LeGuin is a special
case.  She is a good author, perhaps a very good author, but certainly
not an excellent author.  I would put her in the same class as Philip
Jose Farmer or John Varley.  I feel she is overrated largely because
she is one of the few good female science fiction authors and her
writings tend to be on subjects that are of social or political
interest.  Robert A.  Heinlein is "Mr.  Science Fiction".  His
excellence as an author can not be contested.  However, I strongly
disagree with much of his social and political views.  His work
"Starship Trooper" could have been written by Heinrich Himmler, it
comes across as so right wing.  His one dimensional social views as
manifested in the character Lazarus Long leaves a bad taste in my
mouth.  I can see Lazarus Long being a member of the John Birch
Society and voting for Ronald Reagan.  I would appreciate receiving
mail on science fiction and having further discussion on this subject.

                                 G.  Allen

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1982 2054-PDT
From: Dan Newell <D.Dagone at SU-LOTS>
Subject: Grade inflation

   While I agreed with a lot of your recommendations (and disagreed
with a few) I noticed that you tended to treat a C grade for a novel
as damning.  I was under the impression (at least before I came to
Stanford) that C's were average, B's very good, and A's outstanding.
By limiting yourself to only A's and B's, you fail to utilize the full
scale of grades so that we may have a better idea of the relative
rankings.
   This tendency to escalate grades (scores, etc...) has reached
insane heights. When was the last time you saw a gymnast get lower
than 9.8 without tripping over their leotards and falling on their
butts. Maybe we should fight back with realistic sci-fi ratings.

    On the other hand, if your ratings were part of some global rating
scheme that we cannot see at the moment (like ratings of all novels
(with Harlequins and Dell Crossword Books rating F-)) then you may
ignore my chicken scratches.
    I for one enjoyed the review and will undoubtably use some of your
ratings to go out and look for something new to read.
          Dan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #30
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, August 4, 1982 3:12PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #30
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 1 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:
                 SF Fandom - Comicon/Panopticon West,
                           Spoiler - Dr Who
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21-JUL-1982 13:59
From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Convention Report - Comicon/Panopticon West, Chicago


                     DOCTOR WHO IS GOING PREPPIE!
                                  or
                       Chicago:  Steam Bath '82


I attended Comicon/Panopticon West in Chicago last weekend, and I
thought I'd report back on what happened.  For those of you who don't
know (or care), Panopticon is the annual Dr Who convention in Great
Britain; Panopticon West is its North American counterpart.

The guests on the Dr Who side were John Nathan-Turner, (currently the
producer of Dr Who), Sarah Sutton (who plays the Doctor's companion
Nyssa), Anthony Ainley (who plays the Master), and Terry Nation
(inventor of the Daleks).  The con had Dr Who videotapes, including
the 3 Peter Davison serials Castrovalva, Black Orchid, and Earthshock,
some classic Jon Pertwee serials, and a couple of Tom Baker's.

Since it was also a comic book convention, there were guests from the
comic book industry, but I didn't attend that part.

Some news from the question & answer session with the Dr Who guests:

World-Life (that's what it sounded like, anyway) has signed up 20
American markets to broadcast the first three Davison years; the first
year to start in January '83, the second in March or April '83, and
the third in March or April '84.  They gave the Doctor (and us) a 20th
birthday cake to celebrate.

The twentieth anniversary special is still being worked on, but they
plan to bring back some old companions next year.  So far the only one
confirmed is the Brigadier.

Will K-9 come back?  Not on Dr Who.  Possibly a spin-off.
Will the Doctor ever have a black companion?  "Interesting that you
should ask that," Nathan-Turner said.  "Stay tuned."

Was the Chameleon Circuit fixed in Logopolis?  Stay tuned.

Will their be more Daleks?  Stay tuned.

How come a certain villain in Earthshock (see spoiler for details) was
able to fire a weapon inside the TARDIS when it's been long
established that weapons do not fire inside the TARDIS?  Stay tuned.

(Nathan-Turner wasn't saying much.)

The guests had two panels, and two autograph sessions.  They also
judged the masquerade (Best of Show was a life-size working Dalek, who
got a standing ovation).

The only other Dr Who events were a trivia contest and a play (Doctor
Who and the Day and Night of the Terror of the Return for the Revenge
of the Master, or What Would Have Happened If The BBC Had Brought In
Freddy Frieberger To Produce Dr Who).

These were the highlights.

For the lowlights.  Bear in mind that this is the OFFICIAL Dr Who
convention for the North American continent.

The hotel (the Americana-Congress) had air-conditioning.  I know; I
found an air-conditioner, put my hand over the vent, and felt a
stirring of air strong enough to push something as heavy as a (very)
small feather.  If you were further than 3 inches from an air-
conditioning vent, you steamed.  Literally.  The hall outside the
video room stayed at about 100 degrees far into the night.

Very early on a line of demarcation was set.  On one side, the comic
book collectors, who have been coming to this convention for six years
and liked it the way it was.  On the other side, the Dr Who fans, who
came to see Dr Who tapes, talk to the Dr Who guests, and buy Dr Who
merchandise.

The word floating around the con was that there were 700 3-day pre-
registrations (though somebody told me that an ad in Variety put the
number at 4000).  If you didn't pre-register, you could buy one-day
passes at the door.

For some strange reason, most of the Dr Who fans attending wanted to
see the Davison serials!  (Can you imagine?  The con staff obviously
couldn't.)  The con had one (!) video room, with 450 seats.  The line
for the video room was loooong; the corridor for the video room was
short and narrow.  The con staff decided they'd better do something.
So they decided to mark our tickets.  Right.  First it was as you went
in, and they would show all three Davisons and you would stay there;
then it was for each serial, and they would show the same serial
twice, clearing the room each time so the other batch could get in;
then they decided to number each mark so that when they hit 450 they
could say "Sorry, full up"; then (grrrrrrr) . . . .  Anyway, with
persistence and a high tolerance for a gymnasium atmosphere you could
get in on Friday (during Black Orchid a pipe burst and poured water
down the back wall of the video room.  Nobody moved.).  Saturday,
however . . . .

Convention registration opened at 10; by 9 the line was already
stretching downstairs to the main entrance.  By 11 they were
announcing on the PA that possession of a one-day ticket did not
guarantee you would get in to the video room to see the Dr Who tapes
or the big ballroom to see the Dr Who panel and masquerade.  By 12
they closed registration for the day.  The dealer's rooms swarmed with
less than gruntled Dr Who fans.  (They couldn't even buy much as the
really neat stuff sold out Friday.)  Every vending machine in the
hotel was emptied early (I think they were refilled once a day); ice
cost a quarter a bucket and most ice machines went quickly out of
order and stayed that way.  The autograph session that afternoon was
in a room with only one door - the line going out had to struggle past
the line going in and the guests (they were terrific people) were in
there for an hour and a half, taking an involuntary sauna.

By Sunday I think the word got out - there did not seem to be so many
people.  The video room was still SRO; by the last show, the con staff
had come up with the final policy - get your ticket numbered, then get
the hell off that floor and stay off until showtime or we'll take your
ticket away.  (If this sounds ridiculously hostile, believe me, they
were.)  The dealers began to pack; the air-conditioning made a minor
comeback and got the temperature down to 95; the guests did another
autograph session (marvelous people), the trivia contest took place,
and the comic book dealers began marking their stuff down to try to
move it.

Next Year - Columbus, Ohio.  (Yes, the hallmark of a true fan is her
masochism.)  I talked to the organizers for that one and was somewhat
encouraged.  For one thing, the people who organized this con won't be
involved (hooray!).  Next year they are promising:  1) working
air-conditioning; 2) free ice; 3) more than one video room; 4) limited
registration; 5) no comic books.  What the hay.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, August 4, 1982 3:12PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the TV
series Dr. Who.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 21-JUL-1982 14:02
From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Dr Who Spoiler

****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****

Be warned - this submission gives away details from the newest (19th)
season of Dr Who, as learned at Panopticon West.

The audience, having made it into the video room, was in a mood to
enjoy.  We applauded:  1) the opening music; 2) the closing music; 3)
John Nathan-Turner's credit as producer; 4) the materialization of the
TARDIS; 5) the de-materialization of the TARDIS; 6) the appearance of
the Doctor; 7) the re-appearance of the Master; 8) the re-appearance
of the Cybermen; etc.  The only negative reaction came in Castrovalva:
when the Doctor unraveled his scarf, there was a joint and heart-felt
"Oh nooooooo".

Castrovalva, the first serial of the new season, concerns the Doctor's
troubles with his newest regeneration.  This is the third of the
trilogy of stories concerning the return of the Master (The Keeper of
Traken and Logopolis being the first two).  The Doctor troubles with
this regeneration (enabling Peter Davison to give instantly
recognizable impressions of his four predecessors) force him to go to
Castrovalva for convalescence.  The Master kidnaps Adric to make use
of his mathematical abilities to entrap the Doctor there.  The Doctor,
who is also suffering memory loss, knows that one of his companions is
missing, but can't remember who it is.  Castrovalva turns out to be a
lair of the Master, and escape is very difficult.

Sometime between Castrovalva and Black Orchid the Doctor loses his
sonic screwdriver.

Black Orchid, the fifth serial, is a nice, quiet little 2-parter that
just sorta sits there.  It takes the form of the English-country-
house-party-whodunnit-and-what-is-that-thing-locked-up-in-the-attic-
anyway?  The highlights of this one are the Doctor making a big score
at cricket, Tegan doing the Charleston, and the entire cast making a
grand entrance in a Rolls Silver Ghost.

Earthshock, the sixth serial, has already (and deservedly) become a
classic.  This one involves the return of the Cybermen (and gives us
flashbacks to the three previous Doctors that the Cybermen dealt
with).  A very interesting and understated detail in this one was the
total lack of gender discrimination among the Earthlings.  The CO of
the troop of soldiers was a man, the no-nonsense sergeant was a woman,
and both the captain and exec of the freighter were also women.  The
mix in both the troops and the crew of the freighter was very even.
The Cybermen attempt to invade the Earth (again) and come
frighteningly close this time, smuggling themselves in on a freighter.
When the Doctor foils that plan they turn the ship into a missile on a
collision course with Earth and force the Doctor to take them out in
the TARDIS, leaving Adric behind on the freighter.  The Doctor, Tegan,
and Nyssa manage to overcome the Cybermen, but in the process the
Cybermen weapons damage the TARDIS (yes, weapons aren't supposed to
work inside the TARDIS; this is supposed to be explained in a later
show) and they are unable to go and pick up Adric.  Adric works out
the code to deactivate the ship, but takes the freighter hopping back
through time in the process.  A damaged Cyberman left behind destroys
the controls before Adric can key in the final deactivation sequence.
The freighter crashes into the Earth at the time of the dinosaurs with
Adric still aboard.

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #31
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, August 5, 1982 12:53AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #31
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:
                     SF Lovers - WorldCon Party,
      SF Magazines - Foundation: The Review of Science Fiction,
    SF Books - Alongside Night & Lensmen Series,  SF TV - HHGttG,
      SF Movies - Destination Moon & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial,
             SF Topics - Brain Use & Holographic Memory,
                   Humor - Genderless Video Games,
                 Spoiler - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1982 2150-CDT
From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3
Subject: SFL WorldCon party

The time has come, boys and girls, to think of the timing and
logistics for an SFL party at the biggie: Chicon IV.

We have a quad at the Hyatt, and are hereby volunteering to host the
get-together; anybody wanting to attend, please respond directly to me
(ZELLICH@OFFICE-3) and not to the list.  We need to know preferences
for party time (\not/ during the masquerade or GoH speeches/awards
ceremony) and preferably how many plan to attend (gotta provide the
right number of plastic cups, napkins, etc.).  If people want us to
provide food and drink for them, we're willing to do it within
reasonable volumes (very limited car space driving up from St. Louis)
and with reasonable guarantees that those people will remember to
reimburse us for their fair share; mainly, though, it's gotta be a
BYOB & Munchies party.

Anyone having prior experience at putting such a conclave together,
and knowing of other considerations (do we need to bother with who is
bringing what munchies, liquids, etc.?), please speak up.  After a
reasonable amount of time, I'll get back to the subgroup that responds
to this message.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 82 20:12-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Foundation: The Review of Science Fiction

In Nicholls' Science Fiction Encyclopedia in the section describing
the Foundation magazine published in Britain, he mentions that the
first eight issues were projected for publication in 1978. Anyone know
if such a compilation exists or how to subscribe to the magazine?

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 1748-EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH at RUTGERS>
Subject: new "hard" sf

Is there some law that libertarian science-fiction writers have to
have the middle name "Neil"?  Believe it or not, that's what first
caught my eye on the cover of "Alongside Night", by J. Neil Schulman.
I bought it on the recommendation of Jerry Pournelle (to "anyone
interested in freedom") on the cover, and then realized what it was.

What it is is a good first novel.  Although I was unable to read it
with an unbiased eye, I believe it stands quite well on its own as an
adventure novel.  Indeed, though one would expect any awkwardnesses to
stem from forced references to his libertarian-inspired background
scheme, they don't: about the worst writing I can find is where he
describes the Weaver stance twice, making it somewhat distracting the
second time around.  Indeed, libertarian references can be marvelously
subtle: at one point the protagonist is given a sample cigarette by
the proprietor of a cannabis shop--on the cigarette is embossed a
small gold dollar sign.  And it is entirely believable that the
proprietor would have done that with full knowledge of his antecedents,
when you do catch the reference.

So even taken straight at face value, this is better than average
fare.  Though not as spellbinding as Heinlein, it would be enjoyed by
anyone who liked early Heinlein.  But, like J.P., I would especially
recommend this one to "anyone interested in freedom".  Its working out
of the principles of an "anarcho-propertarian" organization which is
still surrounded by a hostile State is more firmly grounded in reality
than some libertarian writing, which seems to assume that the State
has to vanish for any of this stuff to work.  This is the best book
I've read this year.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1982 1448-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Reply-to: "DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137> c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: SFL submission


( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #22 )

(Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>) For Lensman sticklers, or people
who only buy parts of series, the chronological order of the books is
\Triplanetary/, \First Lensman/, \Galactic Patrol/, \Gray Lensman/,
\Second Stage Lensmen/, \Children of the Lens/.  \The Vortex Blaster/
takes place sometime after \Galactic Patrol/, and probably before the
end of \Children of the Lens/, but the exact sequence isn't important
since it's a totally unconnected story set in the same universe, with
just enough overlapping background to make some sort of stab at
placing its date.

------------------------------

Date: Wed Aug  4 01:27:04 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: More on the Hitch-Hiker's guide BBC-TV version


Well, I have now seen 4 episodes of the Guide, and I must admit that
the quality of the fourth was a bit above that of the second and
third.  It is still not that great.  I think I would still suggest to
anybody that they hear the radio series first.  The people making this
show are just not making use of the visual medium for comedy.  This is
too bad, because the guide IS comedy.  Essentially we get radio actors
delivering radio lines with some special effects in the background.
We get Mark Wing-Davy, who blatantly cannot act on television, doing
the role of Zephod.  I get the impression that many of his lines
required multiple takes, for his stuff seems to be delivered in
edited-in clips.

Slartibartfarst (sp?) was fairly good in episode 4, and the two
philosophers who come to complain about Deep Thought were quite good.
Deep Thought itself was visually pretty boring and actually bothersome
to look at.

I would be interested in comments from people who see the TV version
first, and then hear the radio one or read the book.  I told my
brother to see it, and he watched the second and third episodes.  His
comments were that the material was great, but what was behind it was
useless.  One might as well turn off the video and listen, but even
then the timing was not great.  He has yet to hear the radio series,
so I can't get any comment.  One thing that was interesting:  I took a
copy of the first episode recorded in 6 hour mode on my VTR over for
him to watch.  We played it on his VTR which is old and only has a 4
hour mode.  It was thus played with a speedup of around 25-50%.  (hard
to judge).  Anyway, he thought the timing was much better this way.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1448-EDT
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ at NLM-MCS>
Subject: HHGttG in Washington D.C.

The program manager for the PBS station in Washington says the
Hitchhikers Guide will be aired sometime in the Fall.

                                                           -bob

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1982 13:39 EDT
From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Destination Moon Sources

In response to Nathaniel Borenstein's query from SFL #26, Destination
Moon was largely due to R.A.Heinlein; the movie was a loosely adapted
takeoff from Rocket Ship Galileo.

DaveB

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1982 14:08-PDT
From: KDO at SRI-KL
Subject: Brain Use / Holographic Memory

There is a common misconception that making a hologram smaller (by
cutting it) gives you a smaller hologram which is blurry.  No!
Cutting a hologram just reduces the window through which the image can
be seen.  As I understand a hologram has information for the view of
the object from each direction.  If you cut out part of it you lose
information.

Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which neurons fire is
like seeing how much of your computer memory is used by counting the
set bits!

                                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 22-Jul-82 20:29:48 PDT (Thursday)
From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Genderless video games

When a city council tries to ban video games, will arcade operators
organize a Pac-Man Political Action Committee (Pac-PAC) ?

/Ron

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, August 5, 1982 12:53AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie
ET: The Extra-Terrestrial.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: Sun Aug  1 01:43:23 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: ET SPOILER

I was surprised by the scene in ET where the scientists attempt to
revive ET by human methods.  I was not surprised from a standpoint of
disappointment with the movie, however.  I was so involved with the
scene at the time that my reaction was "Oh no, they're not going to
try THAT are they!"  It seemed like something a team in panic might
do.  After all, the ET was known to have DNA and other similarities to
our life forms.  When the heart stopped, they were (mistakenly)
convinced that the ET had had the biscuit, and any further moves could
do no harm although they might do some good.

------------------------------

Date: 08/02/82 0954-EDT
From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject: Medical Sequences in "E.T."; Reply to Michael First


     While agreeing with Michael First's arguments concerning the
futility of applying our medical technology to treat E.T. (SFL Digest
V.6, #25), I wish to present a different interpretation of the role
which those sequences play in the film. To anyone familiar with Carl
Sagan's statements that real extraterrestrial organisms probably will
be stranger than any of our speculations, it should be obvious that
the medical efforts depicted in the film probably will fail. I
believe that Mr. Speilberg shares this perception of the situation,
and that these scenes are a deliberate vehicle for the film's
attitude, rather than inept plotting. The futile medical procedures
symbolize and demonstrate the arrogance, pomposity, and insensitivity
of the adult culture. Eliot protests so stridently because he knows
that this treatment won't work, and is only causing pain and possibly
making E.T.'s condition worse. The adults are oblivious to the
pointless suffering which the medics inflict, because they are
concerned only with the importance of the scientific discovery and the
tangible benefits which might result from contact with an alien
civilization. Mr. Speilberg even alludes to the Crucifixion and
Resurrection, through the imagery of E.T.'s revival ("Forgive them,
Father, they know not what they do"). I am reminded of similar
developments which occur in "The Man Who Fell to Earth". In fact, "The
Man Who Fell to Earth", and "E.T." tell very similar stories, except
that the emotional intimacy between human and alien occurs on an adult
level, in the former.

     Yes, this interpretation takes a pessimistic view of the ethical
abilities of scientists and technicians, when confronted with truly
significant events. It represents my interpretation of Mr. Speilberg's
position, not my own. I would like to believe that we will approach
extrat-terrestrial life with a proper measure of humility in the face
of our possible ignorance, and respect for the individuality and
independence of all sentient organisms.

                              Enjoy,

                                     Karl Heinemann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #32
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, August 7, 1982 7:32AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #32
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 3 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS,
          SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS & Rating Books,
  SF Books - The Magic Goes Away & Creatures of Light and Darkness &
            Doorways in the Sand & The House in November &
     Night of Delusions & The Avatar & The Day of Their Return &
                  The Corridors of Time & Brain Wave
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, August 7, 1982 7:32AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI
Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS

As some of you have noticed, the list of Science Fiction novels
submitted by had a transcription error.  In particular, the following:


          Poul Anderson
               The Man Who Counts                 A-
               Satan's Worlll Drag You Under      A+
               Midnight at the Well of Souls      B+
               Exiles at theWell of Souls         B
               The Web of the Chozen              C
               Lilith: A Snake in the Grass       A-
               Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold       A-
          Arthur C. Clarke


should be replaced by:

          Poul Anderson
               The Man Who Counts                 A-
               Satan's World                      A
               Shield                             C
               The Trouble Twisters               B+
               The Enemy Stars                    C+
          David Bear
               Keeping Time                       B
          Gregg Bear
               Strength of Stones                 B+
          Jack L. Chalker
               And the Devil Will Drag You Under  A+
               Midnight at the Well of Souls      B+
               Exiles at theWell of Souls         B
               The Web of the Chozen              C
               Lilith: A Snake in the Grass       A-
               Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold       A-
          Arthur C. Clarke

in the list.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1982 22:35:39 EDT (Wednesday)
From: John Redford <dm.jlr at BBN-RSM>
Subject: ratings of SF novels

I was a little startled to see that Poul Anderson wrote Jack Chalker's
novels "Midnight at the Well of Souls" and "Exile at the Well of
Souls", plus others that I wasn't too sure about.  I guess all these
sci-fi (or as Pournelle would call them, "skiffy") books become alike
after a while.  Alike enough so that it's possible to rate them on a
one-dimensional scale.  A physics exercise like "Dragon's Egg" by
Forward and a Wodehousish comedy like Panshin's "Masque World" get the
same standards applied to them.  But hey, they all take place in
space, right?  They've all got aliens, right?  As Allen himself says,
it's pretty easy to become jaded by this sci-fi stuff.

I'm sorry if I'm unfairly maligning your tastes, but it's foolish to
give books classroom grades.  In a classroom everyone is studying the
same subject, but what is the subject of science fiction?  How can you
say that one SF novel performs better than another?  Better in what?
Character?  Plot?  Theme?  Do good characters count for more points
than, say, scientific accuracy?  It's pointless to argue about these
things.  Describe each book as it comes.  Say that you were really
struck by the idea behind the novel (and summarize that idea), but
thought the plot moved slowly.  Or that you fell completely into the
world of the characters, but were a little horrified by it when you
thought about it afterwards.  Or that this book was a complete
disaster and should crumble into oblivion as fast as its acidic paper
will take it.  Some books ARE better than others, but a rating system
tells more about the rater than the ratees.

John Redford

PS Issac Asimov, whose last SF book came out in 1972, would be
   disgruntled to find himself lumped in as an old-timer with Jules
   Verne.  Verne died in 1905.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1982 0609-EDT
From: James M. Turner <RG.JMTURN at MIT-OZ>
Subject: LOTS report card

He's read one McCaffrey, Decision at Doona, and gave it a B?!! Someone
get this man some Pern, quickly!
(BTW, the Thursday Boston Globe had an excellent full-page article on
new trends in SF.)

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1982 10:39 PDT
From: Wedekind.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: science fiction novels, 112 novels rated

        Thanks a lot for the rating list - very useful!  I was puzzled
by one thing, though - your "favorite authors" list omits Alexei
Panshin and David Lindsay, who have the highest GPA's by far.  Was
this because they are less tried and true than other authors, or
because none of their A+'s has been really spectacular, or were you
rating these authors on something other than their novels?

                                        cheers,
                                                Jerry

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1982 0507-PDT
Subject: Book reviews, Grade inflation and gymnastics.
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>

First, let me reply to the comment about grade inflation that said
"when was the last time you saw a gymnast score less than 9.8..."
This is a poor example.  I was a gymnast.  I never scored a 9.8, and I
even managed to beat a lot of people.  Gymnastics has a strict set of
rules that determines the scores awarded.  Given these rules and the
quality of international caliber gymnastics routines, all the scores
should be in the high 9s.  This is not so much a matter of inflation as
a case of the rules having failed to keep up with the state of the
art.  This, of course, has nothing to do with SF, so I have cleverly
included it with a bunch of book reviews, to wit:

1) "The Magic Goes Away" by Larry Niven
   This book explains why although magic is universal in myths, it
   doesn't work anymore.  It seems that all the "mana", which is needed
   by magic the way oxygen is needed by fire, has been used up.
   "Mana" exists in plenty on extra terrestrial bodys, and it is the
   plan of the protagonists in this book to bring the moon to earth
   and replenish the supply of mana.  First however, they have to find
   enough remaining mana ON earth to accomplish this uncertain task.
   The book has believable, interesting characters, many wonderful
   explanations of various mythological phenomena and their demise
   ("Dragon metabolism is partly magical..."), and a good, consistent
   plot.  The "trade paperback" I read (from the library) also had
   pictures that were well drawn without being so detailed as to ruin
   your imaginings, although they tended to disagree with the text as
   to what and how much the main female character was wearing.  The
   book loses a little since you know from the beginning what the
   outcome must be. (magic DOESN'T work).

2) Rodger Zelazny
   a) "Creatures of Light and Darkness"
   This is a book of the type Zelazny seems to do best.  The
   implementation of a religion using high technology and science.  In
   CoLaD, the major antagonists are the "angel of life" and "angel of
   death" who more or (mostly) less co-operatively maintain the
   ecology of the inhabited galaxy.  The protagonist is a former god
   himself - "The Prince who was a thousand", who was outsted by a
   sort of coup a long time ago, along with some other "immortals",
   who of course oppose the antagonists rather violent forms of
   population control.  In addition there is an "EVIL thing" that The
   Prince is out to destroy.  Good stuff, but not as good as "Lord of
   Light".

   b) "Doorways in the Sand"
   I'm not sure Zelazny really wrote this.  It's unlike anything else
   of his I've ever read.  My god, it's almost CONVENTIONAL !  It has
   enough humor and unexpected turns of plot to have been written by
   Laumer, although it holds together better, and comes out pretty
   consistent.  The main character has been an undergraduate for 13
   years, and plans to stay such.  It seems that everyone, including
   the feds, hoodlums, and alien agents disguised as various animals,
   is looking for an alledgedly missing alien artifact of unknown
   purpose that has been given to earth.  Apparently they all think he
   knows where it is.  He doesn't, which leads to merry chases, much
   confusion, and 185 pages of story.  Not bad -- worth reading.

3) Speaking of "Keith Laumer":
   a) "The House in November"
   A relatively non-twisted Laumer "Bum to Superman" story.  Jeff
   Malory wake up one morning to find everyone in his town acting like
   a zombie.  He himself can't remember anything that has happened in
   the last 3 months.  This is obviously due to the obviously alien
   creatures walking around (they turn out to be a hive intelegence
   that reproduces like a virus, getting the native population of a
   "conquered" planet to manufacture their offspring).  Most of the
   book deals with Jeff's attempts to convince surviving humans (non
   zombies outside of town) that he isn't crazy, and that there are
   aliens, rather than russians or chinese, and of course there is a
   battle with the alien(s).

   b) "Night of Delusions"
   This is a severly twisted work, even for Laumer.  Something strange
   or unexpected must happen on the average of every 4 pages.  It
   might be considered a solidified dream or realized insanity.  Sort
   of P.K.  Dickish, in that much of it concerns the uncertainty of
   the lines between reality and non-reality and whether or not it
   matters. It's written in a much lighter style, uses technology
   instead of drugs, and centers on a hero rather than a victim,
   however, making it a lot of fun to read, if you can take having
   credibility scrambled.

4) Poul Anderson
   a) "The Avatar"
   In this book, I begin to see what McLure complains about in Novels.
   There are a lot of good ideas in here, but the whole thing seemed
   to me to be very padded.  The basic conflict is between the people
   who want to explore space and the people who want to spend all of
   that money improving conditions on earth.  Very current, except
   that it's interstellar travel that is being threatened.  The hero
   sets off on a journey hoping to convince alien races to help them
   defeat the conservatives, and/or discover enough so that their way
   will be obviously more desirable.  I should say that the star
   travel is provided by un-met beings called "others" who have
   sprinkled gateways all over the galaxy, including one on the
   opposite side of the sun from earth.  The padding I found
   objectionable consists of sexual encounters that don't really go
   anywhere. I suppose this is to be considered "character
   development", but it seems a lousy way to do it.  Also, the
   next-to-last N chapters sound like they were designed for the
   special effect departmentand the silver screen.  Lots of
   awe-inspired scenes with the characters standing around
   awe-inspired.  MAYBE worth reading.  Probably not worth buying.

   b) "The Day of Their Return"
   I guess this is my least favorite kind of SF, where the protagonist
   travels around a planet experiencing cultures of an alien
   (different, not inhuman) world.  Ivar (the protagonist) wants to
   free his planet from the oppressive terran empire, which is painted
   as not really so oppressive.  Kind of nice guys, actually, who are
   trying to reconstruct things after "The collapse".  Unfortunately,
   most of the planet agrees with Ivar, especially since there are
   rumors and a convincing prophet around saying that an advanced race
   of "Elders" will be returning to help them.  The book is especially
   consistent.  Everything gets explained satisfactorally by the end
   of the book.  I believe this ties into an Anderson sort of "known
   space" series, although the only other book in the series was "The
   Earth book of Stormgate" or some such. (note: the book stands
   alone, it just has common aliens and things). OK, but like I said,
   not my favorite type of story.

   c) "The Corridors of Time"
   A "Glory Road" type of book.  A beautiful Female person from the
   future (who may or may not be a good guy) recruits a contemporary
   man in a capacity as a hero to battle her enemies.  Said battles
   occur throughout time, mostly in something like 1800 BC.  Many
   standard time-travel gimicks are employed.  Reasonable escapism.

   d) "Brain Wave"
   Earth is currently in a field that suppresses certain types of
   electromagnetic phenomena, including some that occur in nerve
   tissue.  In BW, Earth suddenly leaves this field, causing any
   creature with a brain to suddenly have its intelligence increased
   by a factor of about 3.  The consequences are detailed.  People who
   had never been trained to think, and who never thought much,
   suddenly have the ability, and find their old jobs unchallenging
   and unrewarding.  No one wants to collect the garbage anymore.
   Farm animals develop a sudden aversion to being slaughtered.
   Psychology, Psychiatry, and most fields of science suddenly become
   useless or obsolete. Many people go insane from the shock and/or
   the strain of their suddenly increased intelligence.  All sorts of
   problems.  This was a really interesting book.  It said some things
   I disagree with (for example the claim is made that all art would
   suddenly lose its impact. I think that sunsets, bird songs and the
   stars will always be beautiful, and thus so will their imitations).
   The book is quite old (1954) and shows some obvious political
   biases (for example communist peasants all quickly revolt upon
   becoming more intelligent).  Also quite interesting is that some of
   the changes attributed to increase intelligence have occurred anyway
   ("There was an easy informality of dress, open-necked, slacks, and
   jeans, an occasional flamboyant experiment..." and that's in a
   nightclub. Hell, it sounds like where I work ! (maybe there is hope
   for the human race after all)).  Not complex, Not complete, Not
   even very thorough, but a must read for its ideas....




More on grade inflation. I rarely read anything that I find really
distasteful.  I hardly ever fail to finish a book - to me, even if it
doesn't look like its going to be all that good, There isn't much reason
not to spend the couple hours it will take to finish it. One good line
in a 200 page novel makes it worth having read.  It's really hard to
find a book that you can't say \something/ good about.

Enjoy
BillW

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #33
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, August 7, 1982 9:21AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #33
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 5 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:
                        SF Fandom - CHICON IV,
      SF TV - HHGttG & Dr Who & Dark Star,  SF Movies - Lifepod,
  SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Pride of Chandur &
             Windhaven & Lensman Series & Stanislaw Lem,
                    Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 August 1982 01:11 edt
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Worldcon query

Anyone here from the Chicago worldcon who can answer a question about
site selection? Please respond directly to me.
                Thanks,
                Paul

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1982 15:24:55-PDT
From: ihuxl!ignatz at Berkeley
Subject: Chicagoans on CHICON IV

Hi there. I'm Dave Ihnat; this fellow next to me is Doug Price. How
you doing ,eh?  As we're sure you're all aware, CHICON IV is fast
approaching.  Specifically, Sept. 2-6. It has occurred to the two of
us that the net would be a good way to accept queries, gripes, etc.;
answer questions, disseminate the latest & greatest, etc. concerning
the con. In fact, Doug is on the official publications editorial
staff, and we both know & have access to the Powers That Be for
Chicon. Not necessarily always have influence, but access.

So, perhaps some information. If you already know all this, be
patient; there are still some poor souls who don't.

CHICON IV is the World Science Fiction Convention for 1982. It will be
at the Hyatt-Regency Chicago, Thursday, Sept. 2 thru Monday, Sept. 6,
1982--essentially the Labor day weekend. Hotel room rates are somewhat
variable, depending upon which hotel you get. Double-doubles are hard
to come by at the Hyatt, but otherwise there's still a lot of room
left at the Hyatt and others. You can't apply through the Convention
bureau anymore, however--our reserved blocks are no longer being held.
Thus, contact your hotel of choice directly. (This shouldn't be a
problem; we suggest trying the Hyatt first, since all functions of the
convention are being held there, and you'll find most parties there,
as well. Of course, if you're not particularly a party animal,
then...but then, why did you come...eh? Enuf.) Room rates depend on
which hotel and what you get, but in general run *about* $70.00 for a
double- double, $50.00 for a double, and $40.00 for a single. (These
are *excellent* rates for downtown Chicago, by the way--Magnificent
Mile, don't you know.  For instance, a single at the Hyatt is normally
$98.00/nite.  If you've any questions--other hotels, exact rates,
etc.--feel free to MAIL either one of us a message; we'll answer
pronto. Really.

As for the convention, I hope you all planned ahead. The rates just
recently took their last jump-- to $70.00 dollars for the whole thing.
And, sadly, there are *no* one-days. *sigh*. However, all is not
bleak; they're pro-rating the cost on a day-by-day basis, such that if
you show up a day or two late, you only pay for the remaining days.
What? Oh...ok. Here's Doug...eh?

That's not peanuts for membership. But you're not getting peanuts,
either.  For instance, over three tracks of programming will be
running every day of the convention.  That's three (or more) possible
topics, discussions, interviews, etc. running at once for you to
choose from!  There will be scads of professional writers and editors
to sign your first-editions and to do readings from their own works.
They'll even answer your questions. ("Gee, Mr. Ellison, do you
*really* throw fans down elevator shaf--aaaaaughh.....")("Geee,
Ike--er, Mr. Asimov--where do you get all your ideas??")  There's also
an Art Show (note the capitals) in which you can bid on pieces ranging
from Foglio to Sternbach.  The Huckster Room will have 250 tables of
booksellers, media material, photographs, gamer's materials, etc. etc.
The Film Rooms will have two tracks of the newest and the oldest, the
best and the worst films you have ever seen!  An additional track of
video programming will be presented as well.  This doesn't even cover
the Masquerade, the Hugo awards ceremony, and on and on (and on).

And, if you're really crazy, you can help us pull this whole thing
off...as a gopher.  There are certain advantages; you get to rub
elbows with the Pros, meet the Doers and Shakers (Shakers?  I thought
they died out!?)(shaddup Dave!)

Anyway. Dave back. Enuf, already. If you have anything we can help
with, just mail to either one of us--electronic addresses follow. If
you need detailed stuff--from flyers to progress reports--and it's too
much to send over the net, or you like the feel of wood pulp, send a
SASE (Self Addressed, Stamped Envelope) to the Committee, and they'll
get it out to you *fast*.  (Probably even if it isn't stamped, but
then don't hold your breath...)

So, in closing, come on in and let us show you our town!

                                Trust me!

                                Dave Ihnat or Doug Price
                                ihuxl!ignatz ihuxl!ihima!dhp

        OR
                                CHICON IV
                                P.O. Box A3120
                                Chicago, IL 60690

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1982 1931-EDT
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: HhGttG not planned in Boston

It seems WGBH has no plans to show HhGttG.  I called today and spoke
to someone in "programming" who apparently had only heard of the radio
show.  Obviously the people who answer the phone are not the ones who
make the decision, but she did say that she had noted my comments and
that they would see if they got many more calls.  The number is
492-2777.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1982 1304-PDT
From: Douglas Galbraith <ICL.GALBRAITH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #30

Is Dr. Who being shown on any San Francisco TV stations? It sounds
interesting.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 82 13:54:39-EDT (Thu)
From: Richard G Turner <rturner.xls-onyx02@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Dark Star

According to my local tv guide, DARK STAR, will be shown on WDCA, in
the Washington, DC area, at 1:30 PM, this Saturday, Aug 7, 1982.

                                        -rick

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1982 02:19:54-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley
Reply-to: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm@ucb
Subject: Micros in the Movies

I just finished watching a rather interesting film called `Lifepod,'
all about a manic organic computer controlling a Jupiter-bound ship,
and the responses of various people to it taking over the ship (does
that make sense?). Lifepod is apparently running on independent
stations, and is worth seeing if you get the chance.

The interesting part was the computer control system for the lifepod.
The display was rather obviously an Apple II. They used a jittery
display of a BASIC program as `information,' and were running the
SubLogic A2-FS1 flight simulator for a landing sequence. Also of note
was the HLTA light on the Imsai going on as an indicator for an
impending landing.
I'm just curious as to why I hadn't heard of the thing before now,
seeing as how it was made in 1980.

        mike

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1982 at 1023-CDT
From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables)
Subject: here's the plot...

From a friend of mine:

Here's the plot what's the title - A group of scientists searching for
life on other worlds via radio communication picks up some signals and
decodes them. In the message are instructions for building a machine
of unknown properties.The rest of the book (I think) deals with
whether they should actually build the thing and what will happen if
they do.
   I seem to remember that this book was discussed on SF-LOVERS about
six months ago but I couldn't locate the article. Any hints?

                        Steve Alexander c/o ables@utexas-11

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1982 0318-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Pride of Chandur


C.J. Cherryh (how does one pronounce that???) has done it again!
Robbed me of sleep, and set my household to buzzing.  I bought 'Pride
of Chandur' shortly before a deadline, and ended up sitting up 2 hours
past my bedtime to finish it.  My wife came home late to dinner
because she was reading the book in her office and lost track of the
time, and our house-mate lost it on the bus in mid-read and went right
out and plunked down $3+ to get another copy.

I felt the ending was a little weak, but all in all the book is
gripping enough that I would recommend it to somebody who wants an
exciting read.  The plot is nice, a here-to-fore unknown alien species
(human) is found slinking around the docks on a space station.  He is
adopted by a buncha cats ( the chandur) who flit across space to keep
him out of the hands of aliens that have the lovable attributes of
wharf-rats.  Lots of chases, shoot-em-ups and close calls.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1982 1650-EDT
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-20C>
Subject: Windhaven

Windhaven: "The Fall" was actually published in Amazing about a year
or so ago.  I had mostly given up reading Amazing because of the
generally low quality of the stories (and the typorgraphy/layout was
annoying too), but I was stuck in an airport and had read everything
else I had brought along.  Most of the filler was new for the book,
but the material subsequent to "The Fall" might also have been
published in Amazing or some other place.  Has anyone else possibly
seen some?
                                joe

[ The section entitled "Storms" was originally published as "The
  Storms of Windhaven" in the May 1975 issue of Analog.  The section
  entitled "One-Wing" was originally published under that title in the
  January and February 1980 issues of Analog.  --  Jim  ]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 82 00:36:42 EDT  (Fri)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: news "Lensman" covers

Well, they're all right -- but the cover of "Second Stage Lensman"
shows Our Heroine wearing a space-suit with cleavage...

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1982 1717-PDT
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER at USC-ECLC at USC-ECL>
Subject: HELLO!

I have just found the SF-LOVERS Digest in the process of writing
documentation on MM. From a quick read-through of the contents of the
various issues, it seems that not many Stanislaw Lem fans are out
there. For those of you who are unknowing of Lem, he is the author of
SOLARIS, FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS, MEMOIRS FOUND IN A BATHTUB, THE
INVESTIGATION, THE STAR DIARIES, TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT, THE
CYBERIAD, MORTAL ENGINES, and RETURN FROM THE STARS. And these are
just the few of his works which have been translated into english (he
hails from Poland). I would be interested in hearing from other people
who have read Lem's books and would like to discuss them. Though I saw
some references to Hofstadter's GODEL, ESCHER, BACH, I didn't catch
any to THE MIND'S I. What do you people say about this book? I will
suspend further comments until I see some kind of response, but rest
assured I will continue to read the Digest.

------------------------------

Date: 6-Jul-82 15:06:27 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #5

PacPack. Really! I read that one in a book of Pacman jokes. Are we
about to be treated to a page-by-page repeat of this
long-since-published compendium of 'pacpuns'?

Pac to the drawing board....

        -- Larry --

------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  8-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #34
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, August 8, 1982 5:17PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #34
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 6 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:
                  SF Lovers - De-Digestify Program,
   SF Books - Ursula LeGuin & Bookstores & Valis & Lensman Series,
                   SF Movies - Virus,  SF TV - PBS,
    SF Topics - Psychology in SF & Brain Use & Holographic Memory,
                         Humor - Worldcon Bid
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1982 0307-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: De-concatenating prog


Does anybody out there have a prog that will run on a KI-10/TENEX
system that will take the concatenated SF-LOVERS and break it back
down to its' individual messages?  Then I could easily respond to each
person directly, or look at the headers and quickly sort out dreck
from interest.  For those of you complaining about the longish
main-stream media movie reviews, this would allow you to delete those
messages immediately!

Dan (dolata@sumex-aim)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 82 14:32:36 EDT  (Thu)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Rumor about Ursula LeGuin

A friend says she heard from a friend of hers that Ursula LeGuin died
a few weeks ago.  Is this rumor correct?


                --Steve

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1982 2145-EDT
From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: A good Source for Hard To Find SF Volumes

There have been a few requests of late for information on those hard
to find SF oldies.  An excellent source is ZIESING BROTHERS, located
in Willimantic CT.  Their complete address is:

Ziesing Brothers
768 Main Street
Willimantic, CT  06226
c/o Mark
(203)423-5836

They/Mark publish a quarterly listing of their volumes, which include
hardbacks, softbacks, paperback, first printings, signed volumes,
collector's editions, etc.  A large selection of British printings is
also included.  The quickest route to finding a specific volume is to
call mark and ask him to hunt it down for you.

-reed

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1982 1524-PDT
From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis)
Subject: Looking for a Phillip K Dick novel...

a)      I have this old high school friend by the name of Doris  whom
I am going to visit next week or so.

b)      Phillip K  Dick  wrote a  book  by  the name  of  Valice  (or
something like that) another high school friend told me. I would very
much like to get ahold  of a copy of this  book if anyone in the  SRI
area happens to own it.

Therefore: c)   The connection?  Obvious. Said  second friend  claims
said book is autobiographical, which means it's all about Doris and a
couple of other old HS friends. Hence you can understand...

-Bil

[ The novel is VALIS, by Phillip K Dick, 1981.  Bantam books has a
  paperback edition that is available in most SF shops.  -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: Sun Aug  8 02:43:30 1982
From: decvax!utzoo!henry at Berkeley
Subject: Lensman series

People who want to read the Lensman series in the *right* order, as
opposed to the strict chronological one, should first read \Galactic
Patrol/, \Gray Lensman/, \Second Stage Lensmen/, and \Children of the
Lens/, in that order, ***without*** reading the forewords and
afterwards on the last three.  These four books, minus the forewords
and afterwards, actually form one very large novel with gradually
building suspense and insight.  That is the way Doc Smith originally
conceived them, that is the sequence he published them in, and that is
the way they read best.  It's most unfortunate that he chose to add
the forewords and afterwards for the book versions; they should have
gigantic bright red ***SPOILER WARNING***s on them, because that's
exactly what they are:  huge spoilers.
\Triplanetary/ actually consists of filler material plus a much older
short novel rewritten to fit it into the Lensman universe.  Its age
shows.  \First Lensman/ was actually the last book published (barring
\Masters of the Vortex/ which is in the same universe but otherwise
unconnected), and was written as a gap-filler.  It's not bad.  Both of
these should be read after, not before, the four main novels, because
both are spoilers with respect to major plot elements of the four.

Except for the short story that eventually became \Masters of the
Vortex/, I don't know of any other Lensman fiction by Doc Smith
himself.  There have been two attempts by other authors to set fiction
in the Lensman universe.

William Ellern had a Lensman-universe story, \Moon Prospector/, in
Analog in 1965 or 66.  This was quite good, although there was already
a bit of strain because of the divergence of real history and
technology from what Doc Smith had envisioned.  The technology of
\Moon Prospector/ is really incompatible with the Smith novels, but so
smoothly done that you have to think about it to notice this.  Ellern,
incidentally, at John Campbell's suggestion, got Doc Smith's approval
before publishing.

The more recent effort is David Kyle's [sp?] \The Dragon Lensman/.  I
started to read this.  Twice.  I couldn't make myself go much beyond
the first hundred pages.  The technological incompatibilities are far
more severe, and are major elements in the plot so they cannot just
slide past you without being noticed.  It just wasn't the same.
Although Doc Smith had thought about writing the stories of the other
second-stage Lensmen, I doubt very much if he would have produced
anything like this.

                                        Henry Spencer
                                        decvax!utzoo!henry @ Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: Thu Aug  5 01:14:02 1982
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley
Subject: Movie: VIRUS


I just saw on TV a movie called VIRUS, dated 1981.  It starred Robert
Vaughn, Chuck Connors, George Kennedy and a few others.  The thing
that surprised me about this film (on late night) was that I felt it
was fairly good SF.

There's nothing too surprising.  Germ Warfare guys have devised, by
means of designer genes, a 'mimic' virus that connects to other viri,
making them more toxic and virulent.  This means the bug doesn't kill
you, but if you get a cold and it's around, you might as well say
bye-bye.  At any rate, this thing doesn't spread in sub-zero
temperatures, so soon the only people left around are submarine crews
and people at the Antarctic stations.  To top things off, both Russia
and the USA have Dr. Strangelove type doomsday systems to provide
automatic retaliation to nuclear attack, and they have been set in
active state by a general who thinks the plague is the work of the
commies.  I won't spoil the rest.

Anyway, I was surprised by this film.  Anybody else see it and have
comments?

Who made it?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 1982 1231-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER at MIT-XX>
Subject: Harassing your local PBS station

The best way to convince your local PBS to run a program is not to
call them (that's just the easiest way).  The best way is to send them
a letter telling what you want, and enclose a check.  'Nuff said.

------------------------------

Date: 8-Aug-82 7:29PM-EDT (Sun)
From: John Black <Black at YALE>
Subject: Psychology and SciFi


I am trying to find science fiction stories that utilize results (or
extrapolations of results) from modern Cognitive or Information
Processing Psychology.  There are large numbers of stories that
utilize results from such sciences as physics, chemistry, biology,
etc.  but apparently not many from psychology -- which seems too bad
to me (a cognitive psychologist).  I can think of a couple of examples
of novels that have applied other areas of psychology:  in particular,
THE TERMINAL MAN which utilizes physiological psychology (especially,
localization of function in the brain) and WALDEN TWO which utilized
(now outdated) results from behavior modification.  I will give a
couple of examples to illustrate what I mean.  One of the major
results from modern cognitive psychology is the capacity limit on
short-term or working memory.  A science fiction story could exploit
this by speculating about what aliens with a different working memory
capacity might be like.  For another example, a major issue has been
different memory representations:  e.g., is thought done in
propositions or images or a mixture of the two.  A science fiction
story could utilize this by inventing different beings that have minds
with different ways of representing the world and show how problems
arise when such beings meet.  Does anybody know of any stories that
try to utilize such things?  Would any writers out there like some
pointers to such literature?

------------------------------

Date: 6 August 1982  13:05-PDT (Friday)
From: KING at KESTREL
Subject: Brain Use / Holographic Memory

        If you cut a piece out of a hologram you get a smaller window
on your object.  That implies a blurrier picture, because the size of
the window limits the size of the lens (or other imaging system) you
could use to determine the locations of the "objects" in the hologram.
A separate effect (I think) is that there would be diffraction at the
edges of the "window".

                                                Dick

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 82 22:48:07-EDT (Thu)
From: Mark Weiser <mark.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Brain Use / Holographic memory

        "Making a hologram smaller (by cutting it) ... reduces the
        window through which the image can be seen...if you cut out
        part of it you lose information."

Sort of.  It reduces the window, but the window is not a clipping
window like we are used to on computers, but rather a "real" window
like looking out at your front lawn.  Reducing its size doesn't reduce
the information in any direct way--you must just stand closer and peer
out around the edges, but can still see the same thing.  A hologram is
a freezing of the complete wave pattern of the light--when you
illuminate the hologram, the wave front starts up again like it never
stopped.


        "Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which
        neurons fire is like seeing how much of your computer memory
        is used by counting the set bits!"

Can't agree with this either.  The brain is obviously organized
modularly at least in some parts (the "association" areas are still
unknown, however), and seeing which neurons fire is a lot like seeing
which addresses are sent out on the computer bus.  This is, of course,
a very *good* method of spotting utilization and bottlenecks in a
computer system.  Why not for the brain?

------------------------------

Date: 6 August 1982 18:56 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: counting set bits, again

Once again this flawed analogy turns up:

     Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which
     neurons fire is like seeing how much of your computer
     memory is used by counting the set bits!

This is not at all true.  Checking how much of the brain is used by
seeing which neurons fire is like seeing how much of you computer (not
its memory) is used by counting state transitions.  This works quite
well for computers.  Using a cheap radio to find out if a particular
unit or bus is being used is common practice.  It works moderately
well for brains in that the suspected active sites usually correspond
with those active sites determined by impairment studies.

------------------------------
Date: 5 Aug 1982 (Thursday) 1005-EDT
From: OSTER at Wharton-10 (David Oster)
Subject: Upcoming world con bid.

I hear Philadelphia is trying for the year 2000.  The con will be
called The Millenium Philcon.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #35
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, August 9, 1982 3:57AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #35
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 7 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
                      SF Topics - Movie Reviews,
        SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH & TRON & Blade Runner &
                   Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,
                 Random Topics - Violence in Movies,
              Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 82 15:47:57-EDT (Mon)
From: Dsn.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: movie reviews from the press

I strongly disagree with mwm@ucb's tirade against reviews from the
press.  I would like to see such reviews continue to appear.  In my
opinion, they are often the most worthwhile contributions to SFL.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 1982 02:26:33-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley
Subject: The Secret of NIMH

The animation was excellent, without a doubt. However, I found the
movie ethically offensive for the same reason I found Richard Adams's
*The Plague Dogs* offensive. While I am perhaps hypocritical to the
extent that I would find it hard to pith a frog (being brought up with
the "Bambi syndrome"), I wonder how many of the people who hold the
position seemingly espoused in the movie would be able to say
explicitly to a human suffering from some disease "I think it better
that you suffer and die than that a rat or mouse suffer and die"?

Ben Bova's comments on *Star Wars* (made way back when in *Analog*)
apply also to *The Secret of NIMH*; there is enough irrationality in
the world without propagandizing it to children.

                                             James Jones
                                             (duke!uok!uokvax!jejones)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 1982 (Monday) 1735-EDT
From: OSTER at Wharton-10 (David Oster)
Subject: Sequel to TRON
In-reply-to: James Jones <duke!uok!uokvax!jejones> of 17 Jul 1982
Subject: Sequel to TRON
Re:     Anyone who has used Microsoft Basic can tell you that TRON is
        the command that turns on statement execution tracing, listing
        the line numbers of statements as they are executed. (I hope
        no one makes a movie called TROFF...)

Ah yes..., troff - the sinister program that tries to prevent users
from communicating with each other by restricting them to a line
length of 7.54" and a maximum of 4 fonts.

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1982 00:37-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: TRON as Disney allegory

As a person who did work within the Disney organization for four
years, if there is an allegory to the actual 'takeover', it is
unconscious and/or a great secret from the Disney management. They
would NEVER allow a movie out that might imply they weren't doing
things in the way the great God Walter intended (which I think says it
all about the 'takeover' itself. Walt was NEVER afraid of critisicm.
He just never paid any attention). The Biggest problem with Disney
studios today is not that they are not doing things Walts way, they
are still trying to do it his way. They have not changed as the times
changed (which Walt was very good at), and they are mostly MBA types
that simply don't have the vision that Walt did.

Chuck

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  4 Aug 1982 10:28-PDT
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: Smallpox in Bladerunner

Apparently I need to support my assertion that a smallpox vaccination
scar in 2019 is an anachronism.  Let me point out that my kids and
their classes have not been vaccinated.  My older boy is 14, which
will make him (don't tell me ...) 51 in 2019, clearly older than
Deckard.  The World Health Organization has declared smallpox
eliminated; Smithsonian had a picture of the last man to have smallpox
(a Somalian, I think) a few months ago. I'll grant that there may be a
few more cases of smallpox that they don't know about, probably all in
the Ethiopia/Somalia area, but will assert that even if they exist
they're extremely unlikely to get out of hand.  Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I believe that for many years the only people to get
smallpox vaccinations have been scientists working in labs that keep
live smallpox cultures in order to keep vaccines available...

Now don't get me wrong.  I think Bladerunner was a really excellent
movie that addressed an interesting moral issue with which humanity
has not yet been faced.  I'm sure few more trivial points than this
have been raised on the List (excluding ST2:TWoK, of course); I just
want to keep the facts clear...
        Jim Gillogly

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 82 9:52:56-EDT (Wed)
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) <earl@BRL>
Subject: Violence

People don't seem to mind the violence on the Roadrunner cartoons, or
even in Bugs Bunny's life.  But when they perceive violence in
Bladerunner for instance, they get all bent out of shape.  (not all
people of course...)

------------------------------

Date: Monday, August 9, 1982 3:57AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some readers may not wish to read
on.

------------------------------

Date: 29-JUL-1982 13:21
From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Star Trek N

Now that we've flamed on Star Trek I (The Motion Picture), raved over
Star Trek II (The Wrath of Khan), and deduced the plot of Star Trek
III (In Search of Spock), surely we can extrapolate the story of Star
Trek IV (???).  Any mathematicians out there care to put together the
equation?

susan

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 29 Jul 1982 09:37-PDT
From: jim at RAND-UNIX
Subject: ST:TWoK - Who was that masked target? (spoiler?)

In answer to the perennial question of who the guy was that Tyrell
shot before shooting himself while in the middle of the Genesis phase
II planet:

It was Dr. Hagrot, one of the few (i.e. 3) people to escape from the
station via transporter while Khan was torturing the others.  The
other 2 were, of course, Bibi Besch and her idiot boy.

The name may not really be Hagrot, of course... it comes from an old
cartoon (which I unfortunately haven't seen, but which we have all
seen innumerable times in the episodes):  the landing party beams down
to a planet, and consists of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Scotty, and
some ensign that we've never seen before.  They materialize at the top
of a cliff, with all except the unknown ensign on solid ground and the
ensign in thin air above the N-meter drop (for large N).  Kirk looks
over and says, "Tough luck, Hagrot."

So now when I and my friends are watching an episode (or ST:TWoK) and
somebody unknown gets it, we look at each other, say "Tough luck,
Hagrot" in unison, and snigger.

                Jim Gillogly

------------------------------

Date: 2 August 1982  09:22-EDT (Monday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Chekov and the creepy crawly

Jsol, I have one question.  How was it that McCoy managed to know,
without examining the patient or any such (outdated?) medical
procedure, exactly the right tool to force out of Chekov's head a
creature from a planet that McCoy hadn't been on for at least 20
years, if ever?  I guess that's why he's a doctor and I'm not.

Dave Kaufman

P.S. For those of you who don't know, that tool was a Sub-Etha
     Electro-Magnetic Cattleprod, produced by Megadodo Publications
     for removing Babel fish from Hitch-hikers' ears.  McCoy had it
     because he's a closet HHG fan . . .

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1982  10:46-EDT (Thursday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Spock Must Die


        Some friends and I have been speculating on the Genesis
Effect, and the form in which Spock will return.  Can't you just see a
giant rootabaga (sp?) sitting on the bridge of the Enterprise, saying
'Logic suggests ....'?

        Dave Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 at 0952-PDT
From: chesley.tsca at SRI-Unix
Subject: STII: Starship superuser passwords (spoiler)

        I assumed that the reason starships have remote control
capabilities is so that several ships can be slaved to one another
during battles, etc.  This facility is naturally turned off when one
suspects one's own ships of being under the control of the bad guys;
the M5 knew enough to turn it off.
        Under normal, non-battle circumstances, the facility is left
enabled just in case something bad happens (the entire crew getting
food poisoning, for instance), so a friendly ship can take over and
guide you out of danger, or at least open the air-locks for rescue.
This is why the ship Khan stole was enabled for remote control; he
didn't have time to figure out all the obscure corners of the ship,
and this part is no doubt a closely guarded Starfleet secret, heavily
encrypted somewhere deep inside the ship's computer.
        --Harry...

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 29 July 1982  14:49-EDT
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: Why M5 did not know the prefix codes to disable ships.

Oh really? I am a little confused. As I recall, in the movie, Spock
queried the computer for the prefix code for the Reliant. Is my memory
mistaken?

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1982 12:11:22-PDT
From: ihuxl!rjnoe at Berkeley

     I was very disturbed by some of the comments made in SFL Digest
V6 #27 regarding Star Trek II.  Some of this same irresponsible (and
incorrect) guesswork went on USENET as well and I make an attempt to
curtail it,  as such ridiculous  speculations only serve to  confuse
others.  It is my intention to *answer* questions rather than create
new ones.
     No ship in Starfleet has an M-5 computer.  Further, the control
console prefix codes ARE stored within the ships' computers.  But to
obtain the code itself from the computer,  one needs proper authori-
zation, something the computer does not have by itself.
                        Roger Noe
ARPA:      ...!ucbvax!ihuxl!rjnoe at berkeley [I think that's right]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Aug  cGrath<JPM at MIT-AI  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #36
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, August 9, 1982 4:17AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #36
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 8 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS,
                  SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Monday, August 9, 1982 4:17AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <JPM at MIT-AI>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI
Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS

The following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was
submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX).  It was thought
to be of interest to the readership.  Since LOTS is not on the net,
responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people
should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 2048-PDT
From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft)
Subject: science fiction reviews

As with any list like this, it is impossible to include everything of
significance. Your grouping of Le Guin with Varley & Farmer is
preposterous.  Le Guin and Varley are extraordinarily talented
authors. Farmer is absolute trash. I haven't read a thing of his that
I thought was worthwhile. He puts man on a treadmill with no hope for
salvation. The Magic Labyrinth (end of the Riverworld series) was one
of the all-time worst books I have ever read.

You left out three books by Varley:

        The Ophiuchi Hotline
        The Persistence of Vision
        The Barbie Murders

I consider all three of these to be among the best SF written in the
last decade. His Titan/Wizard stuff is much less impressive because he
was duped into going sequelitis/series by his publisher. I trust he
will get out of that rut after Demon.

Also important is James Tiptree, Jr. (a.k.a. Alice Sheldon) who is on
a par with Le Guin and Varley. Anything by her is worth reading.
Interestingly, these three authors are the first ones to come to my
mind who are capable of really believable female protagonists.

Silverberg's most important book was also left out: Dying Inside.  I
consider this to be the most impressive character study in any fiction
I have read.

On a different note, try Vladimir Nabokov's ADA. I have always felt
this is the best alternate-worlds novel. And unlike most other authors
in mainstream, SF, or otherwise, Nabokov demonstrates absolute control
of the English language.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 2126-PDT
From: A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)
Subject: De Gustabus non Disputandum

(I don't know if that's right; I never took Latin.)

I cannot understand the kind of taste that can give "Foundation" an
A+, and "The Gods Themselves" a C.  I think Issac Asimov in general
comes up with great stories that are poorly written; and "Foundation"
comes in there.  I'd give it a C+ or B-.  "The Gods Themselves", on
the other hand, is three great stories, well tied together, and all
well written.  In my book it's among the top five of all SF novels
written.

I also can't understand the kind of taste that says Heinlein is an
excellent writer, but LeGuin isn't.  I consider her the best SF writer
ever, bar none, while he partakes of the general stylistic sloppiness
that chaacterizes the Golden Age.  I enjoy reading "The Left Hand of
Darkness" more than everything except some of Shakespeare, Jane
Austen, and Tolkien's two big ones.

Understand that I'm not saying anything is WRONG with your taste, but
just that it is very different from mine.  I was thinking of putting
together a similar book list, just so that people would have the
benefit of more than one person's opinions.  Would anyone be
interested?

                                        l. avery

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 1710-PDT
From: A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)
Subject: sf reading list

Rating system:
E       Excellent       This is meant to be a very high rating; I have
                        used it sparingly.
G       Good            Still a pretty good book.
F       Fair            Woth reading, but not wonderful.
A       Average         or worse.  If I found a book average or worse,
                        I decided there was no point in saying how
                        much worse I found it.

Additional information:
* following the rating means this book is important to the
developement of SF as a whole.  I have used this rating sparingly,
too, to avoid redundancy with Ross Nelson's more complete list.

(H)     Hugo award winner.
(N)     Nebula award winner.
(W)     Newbery Award winner.
In these I'm going by memory.  If I say a book got an award, it almost
certainly did, but if I don't say it doesn't mean that it didn't.

Vonda McIntyre
        Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan                    F
        Dreamsnake                                      G

Ursula LeGuin
        The Winds' Twelve Quarters                      G
        Rocannon's World                                G
        Orsinian Tales                                  G
        The Eye of the Heron                            G
        Planet of Exile                                 G
        City of Illusions                               G
        The Left Hand of Darkness                       E*      (HN)
        The Lathe of Heaven                             E
        The Word for World is Forest                    G
        The Beginning Place                             E
        The Dispossessed                                E       (HN)
        Malafrena                                       G
        Hard Words (poetry)                             A
        Earthsea Trilogy:
                A Wizard of Earthsea                    E
                The Tombs of Atuan                      E       (W)
                The Farthest Shore                      E

Isaac Asimov
        The Gods Themselves                             E       (HN)
        Foundation Trilogy:                             *       (H)
                Foundation                              F
                Foundation and Empire                   F
                Second Foundation                       G
        Murder at the ABA                               G
        The Bicentennial Man                            G
        The Stars Like Dust                             F
        I, Robot                                        F
        The Rest of the Robots                          F
        The Caves of Steel                              F
        The End of Eternity                             F
        The Naked Sun                                   F

Robert Heinlein
        Methusalah's Children                           F
        Time Enough for Love                            F
        The Puppet Masters                              F
        Double Star                                     G
        The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag      F
        Starship Troopers                               F*
        Glory Road                                      G
        Stranger in a Strange Land                      F
        The Moon is a Harsh Mistress                    G

J.R.R. Tolkien
        The Hobbit                                      G
        Lord of the Rings                               E*
        Smith of Wooton Major                           E
        Farmer Giles of Ham                             F
        The Silmarillion                                G

Madeleine L'Engel
        A Wrinkle in Time                               G       (W)
        A Swiftly Tilting Planet                        A
        A Wind in the Door                              F

C.S. Lewis
        The Chronicles of Narnia                        G*

Alexei Panshin
        Rite of Passage                                 G

Philip Jose Farmer
        The Lovers                                      F*
        Riverworld Series:
                To Your Scattered Bodies Go             G
                The Dark Design                         F
                The Fabulous Riverboat                  A
                The Magic Labyrinth                     A

???
        Conan the Swordsman                             A

Joan Vinge
        The Snow Queen                                  G

Alfred Bester
        The Demolished Man                              F*

James Tiptree, Jr.
        Up the Walls of the World                       E
        Out of the Everywhere                           G

Philip Dick
        The Man in the High Castle                      G

Joe Haldeman
        The Forever War                                 E       (HN)

(Forgot the name)
        A Canticle for Leibowitz                        E       (H)

Frederick Pohl
        Gateway                                         G

Larry Niven
        Ringworld                                       G       (HN)

Arthur Clarke
        Childhood's End                                 G*
        The Fountains of Paradise                       G
        Rendezvous with Rama                            G       (HN,
        The City and the Stars                          G     I think)

Susan Cooper
        The Dark is Rising series:
                Over Sea, Under Stone                   F
                The Dark is Rising                      G
                Greenwitch                              G
                The Grey King                           E       (W)
                Silver of the Tree                      A

Lloyd Alexander
        Chronicles of Prydain:
                The Book of Three                       G
                The Black Cauldron                      G
                The Castle of Llyr                      G
                Taran Wanderer                          F
                The High King                           G       (W)

Stephen Donaldson
        Lord Foul's Bane                                F
        The Illearth War                                F

Spider and Jeanne Robinson
        Stardance                                       G       (HN)

Patricia McKillip
        A Riddle of Stars trilogy:                      E
                The Riddle-Master of Hed
                Heir of Sea and Fire
                Harpist in the Wind

Frank Herbert
        Dune                                            G
        Dune Messiah                                    A

Ray Bradbury
        Fahrenheit 451                                  F
        The Martian Chronicles                          F

Harlan Ellison
        I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream               G

Weinbaum
        A Martian Odyssey                               F*

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 1711-PDT
From: A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)
Subject: sf reading list: discussion
Maybe a quarter of my reading is SF, the rest is mainstream
literature, mostly modern classics such as Tolstoy, Austen, etc.
Therefore I'm not a real hard-core SF fan.  I judge SF by the same
standards of literary merit as other fiction.  I suppose
characterization is more important to me than anything else, but it is
certainly not the whole ball of wax.  Another thing:  I tend to judge
books by what is best in them; that is, if there's something really
good about a book, I'll call it a good book, almost independent of
what's wrong with it.

I'm interested in SF not only because I really enjoy reading it, but
also because it's a uniquely American art whose development can be
traced.  Of course, there were H.G. Wells and Jules Verne, etc., but
they weren't aware of SF as a distinct genre, and so weren't really SF
authors.  Real SF began with Campbell's pulps.

G. Allen mentioned that the old authors have become "stylistically
obsolete".  While that is basically true, it's a bit euphemistic.  The
literary world unanimously considered SF to be trash in it's early
days.  Oddly enough, this had a beneficial effect:  the new art had no
one to please but it's own practitioners, so it didn't have to
overcome obsolete prejudices.  Unfortunately, this also made it able
to ignore truly applicable standards, and as a result most early SF is
rather shoddy literature.

Heinlein and Asimov are the two authors of that period I've read the
most.  Heinlein is annoyingly pedantic, and his characters are
paper-thin.  He seems determined to force on his readers the
philosophical principle that nothing in the world is so important as
fucking.  But his plots are often exciting, and he made many important
contributions to the field which were later used by more skillful
writers.

Asimov is, I believe, a better writer; inherently a >much< better
writer, but he has a problem.  He writes too much, and quality is
sacrificed for quantity.  Few of his books are as good as he could
make them if he did his best, and those that are are hard to find in
the pile.  The characters in all his early works are stereotypes.
"Foundation" is populated by paper dolls.  There is only one point in
the whole series where a character pops into three-dimensionality, and
then only for a moment (Arkady when she's running from Callia), but
that moment makes the whole series worth reading.

In recent years he's been improving.  Dua in "The Gods Themselves" is
wonderful.

The early SF was incredibly chaste, seldom getting beyond the fatherly
kiss.  "The Lovers" changed that.  That's Farmer's claim to fame:
introducing sex to SF (or perhaps the other way round).  In my
opinion, he's a lousy writer, even when judged by his best, and his
worst is putrid.

Of course the most important work in the history of F&SF is "Lord of
the Rings", by Tolkien.  There's hardly been a book written since in
which it's influence wasn't obvious.  For all that, the
characterization is only mediocre.  Its greatness rests on variety of
its fantasies, the enormous, magnificent plot, and above all on the
reality of Middle Earth.  "Smith of Wooton Major" is a masterpiece in
a different way:  it's a fine gem, carefully and elegantly cut.  If
you like Tolkien at all, you should take half an hour off sometime for
this story.

Stanley Weinbaum in "A Martian Odyssey" threw down a gauntlet.  He
challenged SF writers to create an alien intelligence that wasn't just
a human with pointy ears.  Whether such a character can be created by
a human author, or interest a human reader is a question, but even if
all attempts so far have been failures, two of them are so interesting
that they have to be read.  One is "The Gods Themselves"; the other is
"Up the Walls of the World" by James Tiptree, Jr.  She's an excellent
author, but unfortunately I am turned off by the conviction which
shows through in so much of what she writes that all men are
inherently evil, and just the width of a gnat's eyebrow from being
rapist-murderers.

Arthur Clarke is a good writer who knows his science, but
unfortunately a lousy novelist.  Somehow he manages to write very good
readbale books which are almost devoid of plot.  It's a mystery.
"Childhood's End" is a special case.  It's a very rough read, but the
view into the uncertainty, almost insecurity, of the young authors
mind as he looks for something real is rewarding.  The hero of
"Childhood's End" is Arthur Clarke.

I expect most people will be indignant with me for not giving "Dune"
an E.  I was on the point of making it an F.  This book and "Stranger
in a Strange Land" seem to me to pander so shamelessly to the
mystic-cult market that I often retch with disgust while reading them.
For all that, "Dune" has a lot of good in it, so I gave it a G.  But I
think it fundamently a very dishonest book.

There are some books which you may not recognize: Lloyd Alexander's
"Chronicles of Prydain", and Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" .
These are children's fantasy.  I love children's literature, and
consider myself something of a connoiseur (sp?).  I haven't read any
of Heinlein's kid's books, but I'm a little suspicious due to hearing
people say that they liked them when they were kids.  Good children's
literature is just as enjoyable for adults as children.
Unfortunately, very few people believe that; children's literature has
been second-class for longer than SF.  Try reading "The Jungle Books"
again if you don't believe me.

Finally I come to Ursula LeGuin.  I don't pretend to be objective.  I
am in love with her, or at least her books.  In my opinion, she stands
head and shoulders above every other fantasy, SF, or children's writer
alive today.  Her style is lovely, her characters are full and real,
and it is NOT true that her plots are inadequate.  It depends on what
you want.  If you go for panoramic, "War and Peace" type plots, you'll
be disappointed with hers.  But if you like >stories<, gem-like,
Shakespearean tales, with a feeling of unity, of inevitability, of
simplicity, you like U.K. LeGuin.  And anyone who calls "The
Dispossessed" a utopian novel missed the point.

Her poetry, on the other hand, is just awful.

                                        l. avery

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #37
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1982 6:24AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #37
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:
              Administrivia - New Address for SF Lovers,
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
                   Stanislaw Lem & Query Answered,
     SF TV - HHGttG & Starlost,  Humor - Genderless Video Games,
                        SF Fandom - CHICON IV,
            SF Topics - Creationism & Mundane View of SF,
      SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH & TRON & Destination Moon &
          Blade Runner,  Random Topics - Violence in Movies,
                        Spoiler - Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1982 6:24AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL
Subject: New Address for SF Lovers

As you can see on the masthead, SF Lovers has a new public address.
All submissions to the digest should be mailed to SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL,
while administrative requests should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@
SRI-CSL.

This change is necessary due to the increasing downtime of MIT-AI.
The previous mailboxes at MIT-AI will continue to function, but since
that host is experiencing difficulties you are advised to use the new
addresses at SRI-CSL.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1982 2209-MDT
From: William Galway <Galway at UTAH-20>
Subject: Here's plot, where's story?

I'm trying to locate a short story that I last read about 11 years
ago.  It concerns a group of travelers in a sort of "mathematical
spaceship"--a machine used to travel into abstract mathematical
worlds.  I seem to recall that the ship was called a "mathescope", or
perhaps the travelers were known as "mathenauts".  The tone of the
story was humorous and made a point of how you needed to be crazy to
be a good mathenaut.  The crew of the ship included a bunch of
"mundanes" (undergrads in the social sciences?) just to balance things
out--without them all sorts of wild things would happen to
space/time/topology/... within the ship.

I thought this story was included in one of the two volumes edited by
Clifton Fadiman:  "Fantasia Mathematica" or "The Mathematical Magpie",
but can't find it in either one.  Does anyone know the title of the
story and where it can be found?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 0754-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Lem.


        I too have read a lot of Lem's books. Below are a few reviews,
please forive me for not remembering the names.

The Star Diaries relate the adventures of Ijon Tichy, as he wends his
way through the universe. Actually a collection of discrete episodes,


The Cyberiad is the story of two "constructors", and again is a
collection of short episodes. I consider this along with the star
diaries to be the "best of Lem". At one point our two constructors are
competing to out build one another, and the protagonist, Tur

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982  01:17-EDT
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: here's the plot...

Sounds like "A for Andromeda" by Silverberg(?).

--vaf

[  In reference to the query that appeared in issue 33.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 05-Aug-1982
From: PATRICK TABER@KIRK
Reply-to: "PATRICK TABER@KIRK c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: HHGttG

I was excited to see notes from other parts of the country saying that
Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy was being aired on TV, so I called
the WGBH Community Relations office to ask them about it, and they
tell me that WGBH will start airing it on October 16 (a Saturday).  If
this pleases you as much as it does me, you might want to write them a
check to say thank-you and to encourage further programming of this
kind.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 1982 03:15:29-PDT
From: pur-ee!Physics.els at Berkeley
Subject: SF TV: Starlost


    I'd like to hear some stuff on Starlost.  I watched the show
avidly, but it has been just too long for me to remember much.  Thanx
in advance.

                                     els [Eric Strobel]
                                     pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1982 2345-EDT
From: Paul Czarnecki <PZ at MIT-OZ>
Reply-to: "PZ@OZ"@AI
Subject: Vendorless Idiot Frames

1) After a particularly grueling session at the lab, I needed food.
So I headed to the fastfood place, but,... I never made it.  I had
some quarters in my pocket, and the arcade was right there.  I had a
big PAC-attack.

        or...

2) After a particularly grueling session at the arcade, I needed food.
So I headed to the fastfood place, but,... I never made it.  The new
program was just installed, and Tech Square was right there.  I had a
big MAC-attack.
                                        pZ
                                        Paul Allan Czarnecki
                                        ^    ^     ^
                                        |    |     |

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 01:30:50-PDT
From: ihuxl!ignatz at Berkeley
Subject: Anyone for Creationism?

Just a bit of a correction to the note that went out to fa.sf-lovers
and net.sf-lovers: The whole week rate for the World Science Fiction
Convention, CHICON 82, is $75.00, not $70.00 as stated in the note.
Ah, well, it's not much of a difference...

More to the point, and the reason this is going to other newsgroups...

The convention, which will run over Labor Day weekend (details
available on request) has a number of concurrent events every day,
called Tracks. One of the types of events that are traditionally
supported are debates of controversial issues, and this year is no
exception. However, it is important to be sure both sides of a debate
are fairly and strongly represented.

This year, there is a panel on Sunday of that weekend which promises
to be both interesting and spirited; it is entitled, "Resolved:
Creationism is Based on Solid Scientific Foundations". However, a
slight problem so far is that we're having trouble finding people who
sincerely and seriously believe this. Now, 'Advocatus Diaboli' can
work well--and if worse comes to worst, this will happen--but we quite
honestly would love to have someone come forth who can provide an
intelligent, cogent, and informed presentation and debate as an
advocate of this position. Your views will be respected, but be
prepared to stand up to a classic debate--i.e., your stand will be
challenged and questioned. Polemic and name-calling are NOT the order
of business, however; this is a panel with the purpose of exhibiting
rational arguments on both sides of the fence, and giving the audience
a clear presentation of each stance so that it can make up its mind.

The panel is currently scheduled for Sunday afternoon at 4:00 PM on
Sept. 5th.  The current stance of the Convention Committee is that
speakers/debaters will not be paid a fee to attend. However, other
things are negotiable, including your membership at the convention.

So. Do you honestly believe in Creationism? Do you know someone who
does, and is qualified? Are you willing to present and debate on the
issue? If so, please return mail to me at this address, and thanks
from Chicon '82.

                                Dave Ihnat
                                ihuxl!ignatz

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1982 17:58:43-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Boston GLOBE article on SF

   Was not as bad as some mundane articles I've seen---but most of the
poorer ones were in small-town papers. The article was riddled with
correctable errors (some of them were the result of the author trying
to display her erudition and had no real relevance to the story). It
started well and petered out rapidly; I may see about getting a copy
on the net for everyone to laugh at.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 1982 2013-EDT
From: Margot Flowers <Flowers at YALE>
Subject: Science News on "The Secret of NIMH"

From Science News of Aug 7, 1982 (vol 122 # 6), entitled "The (Real)
Secret of NIMH" by Wray Herbert:

  ...  although the origins of the original story have been obscured
  by time, several clues indicate that it was based closely on the
  work of NIMH [National Institute of Mental Health] psychologist
  John B.  Calhoun, who in 1971 was conducting one of the most
  elaborate studies of rat behavior ever undertaken.

  Calhoun, who conducted his research at the NIMH laboratory in
  Poolesville, Md. (a rural setting not unlike the settings for
  the book and movie), has recently completed his protracted study
  of rats, and the (real) secret of NIMH is that he did indeed create
  a colony of cultivated rats -- rats, Calhoun says, with "values"
  as high as any human values.  As Calhoun describes his yet
  unpublished findings, the parallels between the experimental and
  fictional rats of NIMH become difficult to resist.

The article proceeds to describe some story details that suggest the
plot was based on Calhoun's work.  But the main part of the (short)
article sketches how Calhoun manipulated the rats' environment to
require cooperation (i.e. two rats needed to be present to get water
from the fountain), and the effects of this on things such as child
rearing and treatment of strangers.  The rats became "more relaxed,
more altruistic, more compassionate" to the point that some of the
rats "...  were willing to help a stranger who kept wounding them
until they died.  That's as high a value as any that humans have
developed."

------------------------------

Date: 05-Aug-1982
From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG
Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Hmmm...

Matthew Lecin (SFL 6 #15) thinks, with regard to TRON, that it will be
interesting to see how the glorification of crashing the system
"effects the next phase of kids getting into computers".

Interesting indeed!

Or did he mean "affects"...

dave

------------------------------

Date: "6-AUG-1982 16:40  "
From: ALIEN::BALLENGER
Reply-to: "ALIEN::BALLENGER c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: "Destination Moon"

In volume 6 issue 26, Nathaniel Borenstein asked about the brains
behind the movie, "Destination Moon".  I'm pretty sure the screenplay
was written by Robert A. Heinlien.  I think it was based on one of his
stories of the same name.

------------------------------

Date: 05-Aug-1982
From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG
Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Blade Runner is a violent film?

Wow! The reviews say that Blade Runner is a film full of gratuitous
violence.  Since I didn't notice it at the time, this must mean that
it's too late for me -- I must be already corrupted. Oh well, time to
go beat up the wife...

dave

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1982 6:24AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie
Blade Runner.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 05-Aug-1982
From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG
Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: blade runner


Just got back from holidaze, and am wandering through the piles of
SF-Lovers that are waiting...

Saw a comment from Steven Gutfreund at MIT-OZ that "... Blade Runner
is a superb execution of a Phil K. Dick story."

I beg to differ. "Blade Runner" was indeed an enjoyable film, but the
plot of "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" has been flattened into
two-dimensionality by the screenplay.

Why was Deckard portrayed as a hard-bitten private eye in the film? In
the book he was very much a product of the consumer society (wakes up
in morning, dials his mood-for-the-day on his Penfield), which I
think.  Maybe this isn't important, but I think that Dick's concern
with the role of a person in a huge impersonal society doesn't show
through as well.

Also, whatever happened to Mercerism? This is a religion which only
humans can supposedly comprehend, since it involves the mysterious
empathy which androids are denied... although Mercerism may in fact be
a fake.

The sentimental ending of the film is *awful*. And also unlikely. The
corporation couldn't make an android without the 2-4 year lifetime
limitation - because they'd never solved the problem of cell
replacement.  If they had such a well-developed solution, then you can
be sure they'd have already flooded the market with long lifetime
androids.

This mail has been a bit of a rant, but I hope the message is clear: go
read the book! (And try to buy one without 'now a movie' written on
the cover).

Some answers to Steven Gutfreunds queries: People have, by and large,
left the Earth. Only a few people are left; some who have chosen to
stay, and some who have been refused permission to leave because they
are "special" (i.e. substandard types). The androids are used
off-planet as slaves, which they not unnaturally resent. Some
androids, in escaping, found it necessary to kill humans; this is what
has led to their being banned from Earth. I don't know who it is
that's fighting out around Orion.

Last point: anyone out there got a copy of "The Cosmic Puppets" that
they'd like to sell me?  My Philip K. Dick collection needs it
desperately!

dave

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #38
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 6:27AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #38
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:
             SF Books - Ursula LeGuin & Query Answered &
   Courtship Rite & Crystal Singer & The Robot Who Looked Like Me &
                Kingsbane & The Elfstones of Shannara,
                   SF Topics - Holographic Memory,
                   Humor - Genderless Video Games,
              Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 82 19:51-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Ursula Le Guin alive?

Our local SF shop Future Fantasy says they haven't heard of any Le
Guin obit and one of their employees/friends lives in Portland where
Le Guin lives.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 16:45:46 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Winston B. Edmond <wbe at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Reply to Steve Alexander

Steve,
   Perhaps the book you are thinking about is A For Andromeda, by Fred
Hoyle.
 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1982 16:39:39-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: plot/title query

   This sounds somewhat like A FOR ANDROMEDA, except that they build
the computer (per instructions) almost immediately and spend the rest
of the book occasionally regretting it.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 82 16:42-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: sf column
                           SCIENCE FICTION
                          By Roland J. Green
           (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    In ''Courtship Rite'' (Timescape-Simon & Schuster, $17.50
hardcover, $8.95 trade paperback), Donald Kingsbury, a Canadian, has
worked on a grand scale and achieved impressive success. The book
combines imaginative world-building, fascinating characters, and an
absorbing if somewhat convoluted story, as well as grace, wit, and the
intelligent use of the English language.
    The world of the story is the harsh, metal-poor planet Geta. Its
human colonists have survived over the centuries only by the use of
advanced techniques of genetic engineering and the rigorous culling of
those with low kalothi - low genetic potential for survival -
preferably before they can reproduce. Ritual suicide and cannibalism
play large parts in this culling process.
    Three brothers who have formed a group marriage with two wives
seek a third wife. The most important leader of their clan desires
their first choice for himself, and sends them after another woman, a
religious leader preaching a heretical opposition to cannibalism. The
brothers decide to put the woman through a series of seven ordeals; if
she passes all of them, she will have proved her high kalothi and her
fitness to be their ''three-wife.'' This simple plan for courtship is
progressively complicated by the schemes and ambitions of the clan
leader, a seafaring clan using genetic engineering to back a plan of
conquest, and a cloned female assassin.
    Kingsbury has done his homework on just about everything he puts
into the book. Particularly notable are his convincing and amusing
portrait of the dynamics of a group marriage and his intelligent
treatment of religion and the religious mentality. Science fiction has
too often been tolerant of ignorance or outright prejudice against
religion; Kingsbury cannot be faulted here. A nice satirical touch is
the Getan reaction to a newly discovered history of the wars of the
legendary planet Earth; they are horrified at leaders who killed more
enemies than they could eat before the corpses rotted!  (No,
''Courtship Rite'' is not for the squeamish.)
    Anne McCaffrey's ''Crystal Singer'' (Del Rey-Ballantine, $2.95
paperback) has no dragons, but it has all of McCaffrey's gifts for
world-building and characterization. Killashandra Ree, denied her
hoped-for musical career, turns her talent to seeking crystal on the
planet Ballybran. The crystal is vital to the galactic economy, and
those who discover and test it with their singing are among the
best-rewarded workers around. They also undergo irreversible
physiological changes which bind them to crystal singing and the
crystal planet for the rest of their lives.
    The novel suffers from one major problem, imposed on McCaffrey and
a host of other SF writers by the low rates paid for short science
fiction. There is great financial pressure to assemble one's short
pieces into novels whenever possible, and McCaffrey has done exactly
that; ''Crystal Singer'' was originally four novellas published in a
series of anthologies edited by Roger Elwood. As a result, McCaffrey
winds up with four conflicts to resolve instead of just one, making
some parts of the story, such as Killashandra's becoming the lover of
the leader of the crystal singers, seem to happen too fast or too
easily. She is much too good a writer for this to be other than an
excellent book in spite of the seams, but they do show.
    BRIEF NOTES:
    ''The Robot Who Looked Like Me,'' by Robert Sheckley (Bantam, $2
paperback) contains 13 short stories demonstrating Sheckley's unique
brands of satire and sheer zaniness.
    ''Kingsbane,'' by John Morressy (Playboy Paperbacks, $2.50), is a
well-told, straightforward fantasy-adventure quest novel, the
conclusion of a trilogy but eminently readable on its own.
Particularly recommended for readers just getting their feet wet in
heroic fantasy.
    ''The Elfstones of Shannara,'' by Terry Brooks (Del ReyBallantine,
$15.95 hardcover, $7.95 trade paperback), is a gigantic fantasy novel,
sequel to Brooks' best-selling ''Sword of Shannara.'' It's certain to
be popular with people who liked the first one. Brooks still rambles,
but many scenes rise to great power.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 13:20-PDT
From: KDO at SRI-KL
Subject: More holograms


Holograms store information, and a lot of it is redundant. (you could
make a hologram which projects a different, unrelated image in each
direction, rather than a different view on the same scene.)  If you
cut out half the hologram, half the information is destroyed (for
example you can't move your head as far to look around things).  The
information is redundantly stored you can recover a lot, but this is
not the same as one piece information being stored distributed over
the whole image (I guess I am trying to distinguish between
distributing the information and duplicating it).  When people say
that memory is holographic, I assume that does not mean the same thing
as highly redundant.

                                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 1982 1636-PDT
From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF (Martin S. Feather)
Subject: extraterrestial video games

What's the E.T. version of Pacman?
sPACeman.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 1919-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Pac Humour

        What do you get when you cross Ms. Pacman with Bo Derek?

        A Pac-Ten.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 29 July 1982 00:55-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: genderless video games


If you are getting VERY tired of not-very-funny puns based on certain
unnamed video games, do you tell the joke tellers to PAC it up?

*ugh*

------------------------------

Date: 29-JUL-1982 19:37
From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY
Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: PacPuns


To all PacPunners:  I don't mind the puns, some of them are even good
(and Bog knows it's no where near as bad as the RotLA jokes last
summer!), but I do have one little complaint.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!STOP APOLOGISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your going to pun, then PUN, and enjoy it!

susan

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 2020-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
Subject: TIP-TAC's

        To whom ever sent that pun in:  that was very TACky of you.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 28 July 1982  09:58-PDT (Wednesday)
From: KING at KESTREL
Subject: untitled

        I haven't seen any Pacmen at the video arcades lately.

        I guess they're all playing Pacgammon.

------------------------------

Date: 4 August 1982  10:31-PDT (Wednesday)
From: KING at KESTREL
Subject: I can't seem to stop

        What is a giant PacMan who goes around knocking down trees in
Africa?


        A PacHyderm

------------------------------

Date: 4 August 1982  17:13-EDT (Wednesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: [MILLER: PAC humour]

        Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1982 20:38-EDT
        From: Henry W. Miller <MILLER at SRI-NIC>
        Re:  PAC humour

                What does a PACMAN do in the great outdoors?  Why, he
        goes back-pacing...

        -HWM

And what does he sing while he does it?

        ``If somehow you could
          Pac up your sorrows ...''

------------------------------

Date: 4 August 1982  17:15-EDT (Wednesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Pac Humor

What're the pacpeople's favorite football teams?  The Pac-10, of
course!

        - Dave

------------------------------

Date: 05-Aug-1982
From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG
Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Pax

PACk it in, will you?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1982 1852-EDT
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: Sigh

If you were to take a mess of those little white styrofoam frobs that
they use for shipping material, paint them yellow with little black
wedges, what would you wind up with?

PACing peanuts.
Again: *Sigh*.

_H*

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 6:27AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.  Some readers may not wish to read
on.

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1982 0834-PDT (Tuesday)
From: andrews at UCLA-Security (Richard Andrews)
Subject: "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan"  HUMOR and SPOILER



          Is anyone else out there tired of reading first-grade level
humor in this digest?  (I'm referring to "Genderless Video Game"
one-liners of the form:  "Does a Pac-man by his cigarettes by the
carton?  No, he buys them by the Pac.")

          Below, I've made an attempt at humor of a bit higher level
of sophistication:  the limerick.  These were inspired by some of the
spoilers I've read in this digest concerning Star Trek:  The Wrath of
Khan, so unfortunately these are spoilers also.  I've done a bit of
thinking about Spock's last mind-meld with McCoy and the theory that
his memory is being kept in the doctor's brain.


          Although we all saw Spock was dead,
          Along comes this theory instead-
               While his body rests easy
               His mind lies uneasy
          With the illogic in McCoy's head.

          I think this is quite a strange fate,
          But the good folks at Paramount debate:
               "Since Spock has no equal
               Bring him back for a sequel
          Or six, or seven, or eight."

          I wonder just what Bones would say
          When he learns of the role he must play.
               Quite often he'll find
               He's got Spock on his mind
          But it's never happened quite THIS way.

          It will most likely come as a shock
          To learn he's got something of Spock's.
               He'll probably say
               In his inimitable way,
          "I'm a doctor not a safe-deposit box!!!"


                                Rich Andrews
                                andrews@ucla-security

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 5:15PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 11 Aug 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
                  SF Lovers - De-Digestify Program,
      SF Books - The Avatar & New Lensman & Subspace Explorers &
    Dream Park,  SF TV - HHGttG,  SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH,
      Random Topics - Violence in Movies,  Humor - Worldcon Bid,
                         Spoiler - Dream Park
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 13:11-PDT
From: KDO at SRI-KL
Subject: De-concatenating prog

BABYL, the EMACS-based mail-reader has a command to "undigestify"
messages and runs under TENEX.  Of course then you have to use BABYL
to read your mail with, but that is a win anyway.  I suppose if you
don't like that solution you could extract the TECO code that does the
undigestify and make a separate program out of it...

                    Ken

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1982  10:25-PDT (Tuesday)
From: KING at KESTREL
Subject: De-concatenating prog

        BABYL (a mail reader that runs under EMACS) has an M-X
undigestify command.  BABYL also has other nice features, such as
putting keywords on messages to allow you to survey messages that you
previously abelled.
        Run XINFO, and ask for info on EMACS and then on BABYL in the
EMACS menu.

                                                Dick

------------------------------

Date: 08/10/82 1308-EDT
From: Karl G. Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL)
Subject: Poul Anderson's "The Avatar"; response to William Westfield's
Subject: review


RE: The review of Poul Anderson's "The Avatar", appearing in SFL
Digest Volume 6, Issue 32:

    Once again, I find myself agreeing with most of the comments which
were presented, but strongly motivated to express different opinions
about some of the details. Yes, this novel contains many worthwhile
ideas, and it attempts to weave them together into a holistic vision
of physical wonder, enthusiasm about life, eroticism, and
libertarianism. Despite the novel's lofty ambitions, I too, came away
from it feeling disappointed. Worse yet, I don't really understand why
it didn't work. "The Avatar" suffers from some preachiness, but is
only a mild offender. And yes, the alien contact scenes did seem
dismayingly reminiscent of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." The more
significant difficulty may lie in a lack of intensity about the
portrayals of the protagonists' emotions and and interactions.

   However, I question the assertion, in this case that the inclusion
of sexual encounters constitutes padding. "The Avatar" advocates both
political/economic libertarianism and romantic/erotic libertarianism.
The presence of both issues as prominent themes serves to point out
that both positions originate from a common philosophical outlook, and
should stand or fall together. The author should be credited for
conveying this major point with very little preaching.  This novel
also stresses the value of sexuality as an avenue of personal
expression, as a means of intimacy and psychological support, and as
an outlet for emotional tension. The sexual scenario which develops
after the protagonists become lost in the T-machine network might very
well be a practical necessity which enables them to cope with the
psychological problems of isolation and uncertainty. The presence of
sex scenes does not seem totally inappropriate in a novel where
sexuality is a major theme. The number and frequency of such scenes
may be a valid issue, but also seems picayune.

     Despite its flaws, "The Avatar" impressed me with its efforts to
address the emotional problems which surround much contemporary
dialectic about sexual freedom. The issues of romantic commitment,
possessiveness, jealousy, etc. are neither denied nor casually
dismissed, but are accepted as authentic elements of of the
contemporary human condition, which will require serious attention
from the romantic/erotic libertarian. "The Avatar" is valuable for its
presentation non-monogamous sexuality, one which seems much more
realistic and balanced than that given by Robert Heinlein.

                              Enjoy,

                                Karl Heinemann

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 09:05 PDT
From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC
Subject: William Ellern New Lensman

I came across a complete novel "New Lensman" by William Ellern
recently in a used book store, and snatched it up.  It seems to
include "Moon Prospector."

It is quite good.

Now if I could only find "A Nice Day for Screaming, and Other Tales of
the Hub," by Schmitz...

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 1044-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Subspace Explorers by Doc Smith

While in Boston on business, I picked up a copy of \Subspace
Explorers/ by Doc Smith.  I had never heard of it before, but I would
recommend it to anyone who (like me) wants to round out their E.E.
Smith collection.

\Subspace Explorers/ was written in the early 1960s and combines the
Skylark/Lensman style of space opera with the technology of that
period.  (In other words, the he-men with arms the size of a strong
man's legs use lasers and computers).  The first thing that I noticed
about this book was that Smith fell in love with partial
abbreviations.  For example:  a company called Galactic Metals is
perpetually referred to as GalMet.  Same for WarnOil, MetEnge, InStell
and far too many more than you might think possible.

The plot concerns psionic powers, trade union politics, FTL travel,
hardrock mining, planet-sized factories, and communism.  It's not a
Skylark or Lensman, but if you loved those, you'll like this one.

It may not be easy to find, however.  The copy I found in Boston did
NOT have a US price on the cover.  Apparently, these were European or
Australian (I don't have it here to check).  The company publishing
Subspace Explorers is also reprinting all of the other E.E. Smith
novels as well, so there is a good chance all will show up if any of
them do.

                                                --Tom

------------------------------

Date: 02-Aug-1982
From: JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX
Reply-to: "JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Review of DREAM PARK

Micro-Review - Very good book.  Disappointing ending.

I read Larry Niven's new book "Dream Park" recently, and thought I'd
pass my opinions along to the SFL Digest.  I haven't seen much comment
on this book, and I'd like to know if others share my opinion.

My quarrel with the book is the plot-within-a-plot approach that Niven
& Pournelle have used.  The inner plot is the South Seas Adventure,
which is a D & D type game.  This was obviously the central theme of
the book, and was my favorite part.  The outer plot is a whodunnit
murder mystery.

The whodunnit murder mystery is the excuse for showing us all of the
South Seas Adventure.  However, it is poorly thought out, and poorly
executed.  A whodunnit should provide the interested reader with
enough clues to figure out the mystery before the end of the book.
The reader's reaction should be "Oh!  Of COURSE!"  That was NOT the
case in this book.

It's a shame that the outer framework for this book should be so
half-assed, when the rest of it is so good.  I would definitely
recommend this book to most SF fans, and people who are into video
games (is that redundant?).  However, I would warn them to read it for
the South Seas Adventure sequences, and to ignore the murder mystery.

                                               - Jamie Callan
                                                 CALLAN @ CADVAX

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 (Tuesday) 1415-EDT
From: PLATTS at Wharton-10 (Steve Platt)
Subject: HGttG, Phila PA

 ...spoke this morning with WHYY programming people, and after
convincing them I was *not* referring to the radio serial, they
checked their schedules...
 ...It will (supposedly) be shown this October, date and time
uncertain.
  So we have to wait, better than not at all... I had fears they'd
start showing it during Worldcon...
   -Steve

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1982 16:38:44-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: HhGttG in Boston

   I just called WGBH TV programming and they told me it was planned
to start in the early part of October. We'll see. . . .

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 22:46:44-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley
Subject: NIMH anti-technology


   I think denouncing the anti-technology slant in The Secret of NIMH
(the animals, you see, aren't fond of being experimented on), as James
Jones (decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones) wants to do, is a little
paranoid, and smacks of the same defensiveness that had George Will
knocking ET not long ago.  I mean, are the animals supposed to LIKE
being pained for the good of Man?

   It's a hard question, to be sure.  I don't much care for the
thought of paralyzed cats having their eyeballs sutured to rings (for
instance), but then again I would prefer to be safe from cancer.  If
you're worried about the kiddies, then lets make sure they develope
the proper attitude about it, which means giving them a little respect
for both ends of the scalpel.  Trying to hide the facts of life from
isn't going to do it.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 10-Aug-82 5:10PM-EDT (Tue)
From: B.J. Herbison <Herbison at YALE>
Subject: Re: Violence [SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #35]

    People don't seem to mind the violence on the Roadrunner cartoons,
    or even in Bugs Bunny's life.  But when they perceive violence in
    Bladerunner for instance, they get all bent out of shape.  (not
    all people of course...)

Roadrunner:  The events are fantastic - most could not happen in real
                   life.
Bladerunner: The events are often possible in real life.

R:  Wile E. Coyote gets crushed by a rock and walks away - there is no
            lasting pain.
B:  People get hurt and killed by the violence.

R:  The characters are obviously cartoons. They are not living
            creatures.
B:  The characters are people, or at least intelligent beings, with a
            will to survive.

and the most important difference:

R:  The Roadrunner would not seek to hurt, he would just go along
            being his carefree self and the coyote would get himself
            in trouble.  (This was true when I was young, it seems
            that in the newer cartoons Roadrunner is sadistic. Oh,
            well.)

B:  The character try to kill and injure each other, knowing the
            pain they will cause.

There are differences between the violence in Roadrunner cartoons and
the violence in Bladerunner.  I will continue to watch both, but I
still would prefer less violence in Bladerunner (which is not as
violent as some other films).

                                       B.J.
                                       Herbison-BJ@Yale
                                       decvax!yale-comix!herbison-bj

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 82 19:06:34-EDT (Tue)
From: Mark Weiser <mark.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: violence

I AM bothered by the violence in road-runner cartoons, and so are my
children.

------------------------------

Date: 10 August 1982 19:36 cdt
From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: upcoming worldcon bid

You know, it doesn't have to be in Philadelphia at all ... just move
it to the day after the autumnal equinox (Sep 22 (?), 2000) and then
it'll be the Millenium FallCon.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 5:15PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the book
Dream Park.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 02-Aug-1982
From: JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX
Reply-to: "JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX c/o" <Young at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Review of DREAM PARK

***** SPOILER WARNING **** ***** SPOILER WARNING ******

Instead, the ending involves a bizarre love triangle between the
victim (who we don't know much about), another character who appears
very briefly, and a third person who never appears in the book.  It's
the sort of ending that leaves you saying "Huh?"  The reader couldn't
ever have been expected to figure this mystery out.  In fact, the
authors have deliberately rigged it that way.  Aren't they clever???

                                                - Jamie Callan
                                                  CALLAN @ CADVAX

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39a
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1982 3:14AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39a
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
    Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 12 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 39a

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS,
                  SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Saturday, August 14, 1982 3:14AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL
Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS

The following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was
submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX).  It was thought
to be of interest to the readership.  Since LOTS is not on the net,
responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people
should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1982 2234-PDT
From: Judy Anderson <y.yduJ at SU-LOTS>
Subject: Re: More Science Fiction Novels Rated

However I would not say that Heinlein's character Lazarus Long would
be so right wing.  I don't think this character would favor the Human
Life Amendment, entirely a creation of the right wing.  From what I
gather in Time Enough For Love and Methuselah's Children he is more of
an anarchist than anything else.

Also you can't deny that he has written his share of crap - most of
his children's novels are not very good.

Judy.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 0727-PDT
From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft)
Subject: Heinlein's juveniles

Judy, you're definitely in the minority on this one. Many major SF
critics (Nicholls, Clute, etc.) have remarked that Heinlein's
juveniles ROCKET SHIP GALILEO, SPACE CADET, RED PLANET, FARMER IN THE
SKY, BETWEEN PLANETS, THE ROLLING STONES, STARMAN JONES, THE STAR
BEAST, TUNNEL IN THE SKY, TIME FOR THE STARS, CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY,
HAVE SPACE SUIT - WILL TRAVEL are the most important contribution any
writer has made to children's SF and that the best of these, such as
STARMAN JONES, THE STAR BEAST, and CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY, have a
strong appeal for adult readers as well as youngsters, and some
critics consider them to be his finest works.  The only one I've read
is CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY which I thought was quite well done.
          Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 0910-PDT
From: P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS
Subject: Stuart's message

I don't know that STARMAN JONES would qualify as one of his best
juveniles, but I agree otherwise.
                                        pH  (p.phigment)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 0939-PDT
From: Stacia <S.STELLA at SU-LOTS>
Subject: Heinlein's juvenile novels

          I read most of them when I was in junior high/high school and
enjoyed them immensely, though of course it might be that I just
happen to really like his style...

                                                  Stacia

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1009-PDT
From: Richard Treitel <R.RJT4 at SU-LOTS>
Subject: The King

Chalk up another fan of Heinlein's "juvenile" novels -- I've read more
of them than I can remember, including "Space Cadet".  Come to think
of it, most of his books that I have read qualify as "juvenile."
Presumably his publisher s thought that only teenagers would read this
c**p.
                                                       - Richard

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1207-PDT
From: Abe Fisher  <F.FLINTSTONE at SU-LOTS>
Subject: Heinlein's  greasy kid  stuff

I find, perhaps as I get older and think I am getting wiser, that the
novels I started S-F with, namely Heinlein's juvenile books, are
distinctly less appealing than they were.  Now, granted, that has
something to do with my age, but even so, with the possible exception
of PODKAYNE OF MARS and maybe CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY, my interest in
these books wayned immediately following the first reading, which is
not the case for most of his adult novels, not to mention most decent
books by other authors (i.e.Larry Niven, Poul Anderson).

Sorry about the spacing on this message; the space bar is bouncing and
giving me a headache.

                                                  abe

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 0909-PDT
From: Tom Robinson <U.USED2 at SU-LOTS>
Subject: Juvenile SF novels

To throw in another opinion regarding sf novels:

Panshin's RITE OF PASSAGE is by far the best juvenile, or better term
here, young adult, sf novel I have ever read.  It was recommended to
me by an 11-year-old.  Believe it was recently given an A here.

Heinlein's RED PLANET is pretty entertaining.  (The only Heinlein
young adult one I have read.)

Andre Norton has a slough (slew?), er, a whole bunch, of young adult
sf novels to her credit.  I enjoyed them in junior high, but I doubt I
would now.

Tom Robinson U.USED2

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1427-PDT
From: "Ross Nelson" <N.NELSON at SU-LOTS>
Subject: female F&SF authors


          I agree with the statement made earlier that not only is U.K.
LeGuin the best female SF writer, she is one of the best SF writers
alive today.  There are also a couple others that I like very much:

          Patricia McKillip - excellent storyteller, favors story
                over characterization at times.  Author of the "Riddle
                of Stars" trilogy, available in singles as:
                "Riddlemaster of Hed", "Harpist in the Wind", and
                "Heir of Sea and Fire"

        Katherine Kurtz - another very good storyteller with strong
                characters.  Author of a the 6 book Deryni series:
                Deryni trilogy - "Deryni Rising", "Deryni Checkmate",
                and "High Deryni" Camber trilogy - "Camber of Culdi",
                "Saint Camber", and "Camber the Heretic"

        Anne McCaffrey - variable ranging from excellant to poor, her
                best; the Dragonriders of Pern series:
                "Dragonflight", "Dragonquest", and "The White Dragon".
                There is also a related trilogy that is almost as
                good: "Dragondrums", "Dragonsinger", and "Dragondrums"

I won't list my LeGuin favorites because I've only read one of her
books that I didn't care for (out of nine) and that was her recent
non-SF book "Malefrena".  I though she had a good potential book but
it dragged.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1828-PDT
From: Henry Perkins <P.Perkins at SU-LOTS>
Subject: Female SF authors

 What about Vonda McIntyre, whose "Dreamsnake" won a Hugo?  Or Kate
 Wilhelm, who got a prize for "When Late the Sweet Birds Sang"?
 Probably the best way to start reading science fiction is to begin
 with those works that have won a Hugo (awarded annually by fans for
 their favorite short story, novelette, novella, and novel of the past
 year) or Nebula (ditto by authors).  If you're interested in female
 authors, this still applies -- why not begin with the best?

                                        --Henry

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 1441-PDT
From: "Ross Nelson" <N.NELSON at SU-LOTS>
Subject: more F&SF


        If anyone's still interested, here are some of the
male-authored SF that I enjoy.  First, some that I consider classics:

       John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" ranks with "1984" and
               "Brave New World" as anti-utopias.
       Walter Miller's "A Canticle for Leibowitz" is the best 'post-
               armageddon' novel I've read.
       Stanislaw Lem's "The Cyberiad" can not be classified, but its
               a masterpiece.

It's not neccessary, but I'll add to the above list: Dune (and sons),
Lord of the Rings, and the aforementioned 1984 and Brave New World.

Some others, which are not classics, but make very good reading are:

       John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider"
       Steven Donaldson's Thomas Covenant tales (I've read 4 out of 6)
       C.S. Lewis's trilogy "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra",
               and "That Hideous Strength"
       Rodger Zelazny's Chronicle's of Amber (I've read all 5 and
               thought that the last was the weakest)m

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 1982 2356-PDT
From: Eric <E.EWW at SU-LOTS>
Subject: sf
There is one author, a newcomer, whom no one has mentioned: James P.
Hogan.  His books reflect such a high degree of both story-telling
ability and of science prediction based on current fact that all of
his books, with the exception of the most recently published
"<something or other> Yesteryear" (a true dog), rank as "A" works of
science fiction in my book.  Hogan originally worked for DEC before
turning to writing, and so computers often play a key role in his
novels (a fact which makes this comment pertinent for BBoard @ Lots).
For reference, my favorite SF author is Larry Niven.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 0958-PDT
From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft)
Subject: sf author Hogan


I've read a few of his books and thought they were awful. Oh sure, the
science is extremely well thought out, but the characters introduce
themselves by reciting their resumes. Character development is totally
lacking! I've given up on him until someone tells me he can create
believable and interesting characters.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 0617-PDT
From: P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS
Subject: sf

My favorite is Larry Niven, too, Eric.  However, the real reason I am
writing is to complain.  Isn't anyone going to mention one of the guys
who helped get sf started back in the forties?  the 'Historian of
Civilisation', whose Skylark and Lensmen series are aknowledged
classics?  Does anyone else out there love E.E."Doc" Smith?

                                         pH (p.phigment)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 2258-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER at MIT-XX>
Subject: That old-timer, Isaac Asimov

    It was comments like the one about Isaac being an "old-timer"
(he's publishing another SF book this fall) that moved him to write
the following:

        I have the definite feeling that in the the world of
        science fiction I am a national monument and that young
        readers are always amazed - and perhaps even indignant -
        to find that I am still alive.

(from the introduction to Buy Jupiter)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #40
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, August 15, 1982 11:07PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #40
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 13 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:
          SF Books - Ursula LeGuin & Down to a Sunless Sea &
      Oath of Fealty & E.E. Smith & Dream Park & Query Answered,
       SF Topics - Psychology in SF,  SF TV - Dr Who & HHGttG,
           SF Movie - Blade Runner,  Spoiler - Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13-Aug-82 09:40-PDT
From: JWAGNER at OFFICE
Reply-to: {Jim Wagner <jwagner@office>}
Subject: Ursula Le Guin alive?

Ursula LeGuin might well borrow a quip from Mark Twain, who, after
reading his own obituary, said:

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 at 1204-PDT
From: teklabs!tekcrd!bills at Berkeley
Subject: Ursula LeGuin

 Ursula has been in Europe for the past few months.
 She has been working on something, but I don't know what.
 She will return to the Portland area in the near future.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1982 1748-CDT
From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Down to a Sunless Sea and Oath of Fealty

I just read "Down to a Sunless Sea" by David Graham.  It is a good
doomsday type novel like "Alas, Babylon" or "Level 7".  The timeframe
is 1985. The USA has suffered an economic collapse.  Lucky Americans
are allowed to emigrate to Britain or W. Europe which still enjoy
reasonably high standards of living. Unfortunately, hostilities erupt
once again in the Mid-east...

Interestingly, this novel will not be found in the science fiction
section of your bookseller, but rather under general fiction.
Nonetheless, it does contain many of the themes common to science
fiction.  (I also noticed that Niven & Pournelle's "Oath of Fealty" is
also found in general fiction in many of the bookstores around here
(Austin, Tex.).  There is no indication on its cover that it is
/science fiction/.  Was this deliberate?)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 82 9:15:06-PST (Sat)
From: Tim Shimeall <tim.uci@UDel-Relay>
Subject: E.E. Smith Queries

I am somewhat of an E.E. Smith fan, and have read quite a lot of his 
material.  I have enjoyed the discussions in SF-LOVERS on his work, a 
lot.  I have a couple of unanswered questions on his work, that people
out there may be able to answer for me:

1) Where does \Spacehounds of the IPC/ fit into Smith's work?  I have 
   heard this one plugged as a Lensman book, but what I read of it did
   not seem to tie into the Lensman series at all, except possibly for
   the first book, Triplanetary.

2) Does anyone know where the "Family D'Alembert" series can be found?
   Is it in print?  I have read the first book of this series,
   \Imperial Stars/, which is a posthumous collaboration between Smith
   and another author, but have been unable to track any of the
   others.  One anthology I read of Smith's work listed 5-6 sequels,
   but diligent searching of Libraries and Bookstores has been to no
   avail.

                                        Tim Shimeall
                                        Tim.uci @ UDEL-RELAY

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 1738-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: review of dream park in thursday's digest

It was not written by Niven & Pournelle... It was Steve Barnes who
collaborated with Niven. Many think Barnes had the major hand in it
because so much is uncharacteristic of Niven. I gave up on the book 50
pages in... too plastic a plot.

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1982 12:19 cdt
From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT at HI-Multics
Subject: BLUEPRINTS FROM SPACE

The "here's the plot, what's the story?" about the alien intelligence
from space that transmitted a message giving the instructions how to
build a machine of unknown properties, which was built by the Earth
scientist decoding the message was by Fred Hoyle (and I think his son
Geoffry Hoyle).  The machine turned out to be an intelligent computer
which then set about to conquer the earth as a representative of its 
galactic inventors.  I forgot the name, might have been A for
Andromeda.  This kind of story doesn't help influence Congress to vote
for large radio-telescope arrays to search for intelligent life in
space, not that Congress reads science fiction or would vote for such
a measure anyway.
 Cheers, Bob Bibbero (Bibbero.PMSDMKT at Hi-Multics)

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1982 10:33 mst
From: Lippard at PCO-MULTICS (James J. Lippard)
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Re: Psychology and SciFi

A book which has a being with a different perception of the universe 
is 0X by Piers Anthony, the third in a trilogy (the first two books 
are titled Omnivore and Orn).  The being is a pattern-creature, which 
"sees" other creatures as spots on its pattern.  To other creatures it
appears as sparkles in the air.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1982 1927-PDT
From: Ganesha at OFFICE-1
Subject: Dr. Who in the Bay Area

  Dr. Who is on channell 54 in serial form every weeknight at 6:00 PM 
and in "feature" form (i.e., without the breaks every half hour)
Saturday nights at 11:15.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 82 21:29:33 EDT  (Sat)
From: Steve Bellovin <smb.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: HhGttG

Does anyone know if or when "Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is
playing in the N.Y. area?  I'll be moving up there soon.

                --Steve

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1982 1628-EDT
From: John R. Covert <RSX-DEV at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: HhGttG in Boston

We seem to continue to get conflicting info.  I just called WGBH 
again, made sure I was talking to TV, not radio programming, and asked
about the show.  They said that they do not currently plan to show it,
but do not yet have their October schedule ready.  Since they have
been getting a lot of calls, they think they will probably show it.

So don't get complacent yet.  If you haven't called yet, give them a
ring at 492-2777.  Remember, they are PUBLIC television, and we are
the public.

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, August 15, 1982 11:07PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie Blade Runner.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: Thu Aug 12 17:26:52 1982
From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Berkeley
Subject: smallpox vaccination

Seven years ago I received one before I was allowed to travel to
Honduras.  This was despite the fact that I had already had a smallpox
vaccination when I was 3 or 4, because the appropriate records could
not be found. My fourteen year old brother has already had a smallpox
vaccination prior to going to Cuba.  Maybe Canadian Immunization Laws
are way behind the times, but this is the way it is here.  Moral:
keep your immunization records!  who knows when you may have to submit
to punctures and pains just because you *can't remember* whether your
Rubella vaccination was done in the last 4 years and contained 'live'
or 'dead' vaccine.

                                                Laura Creighton
                                                decvax!utzoo!laura

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 1982 1811-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER at SRI-AI>
Subject: Smallpox shots in Bladerunner

I don't think it was intentional that a smallpox vaccination appeared,
but surely one can explain it away via any of a number of plausible
means: E.g. The Smallpox outbreak of 1995, when a terrorist group
stole the virus from a WHO medical facility -- and the reintroduction
of vaccination to counter the results; or that it wasn't REALLY a
smallpox vaccination, but a Martian-Plague virus shot, which is 
similar to smallpox and was brought back by some of the colonists; or
that it isn't even a vaccination, but the scar left after a close
encounter with an energy beam weapon or that ...

If you want to pick at Bladerunner, one hole in the plot seems to be
that replicants were very easy to recognize actually since their skin
exhibited a remarkably superior resistance to boiling water than human
skin. A simple physical test would have confirmed this rather than the
elaborate psychological analysis method Decker used. Also, it seems
illogical that the designers who encoded serial numbers on the scales
of artificial snakes would not use a similar technique on replicants;
if ONE replicant escaped and killed a human there would be an
immediate remedy found for how one could quickly recognize replicants
and this remedy would be introduced into the MANUFACTURING stage such 
that identification would never again be a problem.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1982 11:27:54 EDT (Thursday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Blade Runner

*** SPOILER ***

   The four year life span of the androids was clearly described in 
the movie as a design choice, not a technological limitation.  Also, 
the androids' designers were called genetic engineers, not electrical
engineers or programmers.  The reason given for the four-year life
span was this: the replicants' emotional development could not be
sufficiently controlled to insure they would not become a threat to
humans.

   The androids were given abilities that were as good as, or better 
than, the abilities of humans.  In fact, the comment was made that the
state of the art was such that androids were getting to be as 
intelligent as their designers.  The problem was that the androids had
no past.  They could be created with knowledge, skills, and abilities,
but without a lifetime of experience, they would not have the basis
for emotional development.  On the other hand, they were entirely able
to feel emotions, and it was known that their emotions would develop
given time.  Since emotional development could not be controlled, they
were potentially a threat to humans.  After all, you are starting with
replicants skilled in such things as guerrilla warfare tactics.  It's
hard to discipline a "child" that's more powerful and maybe more
intelligent and cunning than the people around it.

   This lack of emotional development was what the "replicant detector
box" detected.  Things like involuntary pupil dilation and other
emotional reactions to unlikely situations would distinguish a person
from a replicant.

   The four year life span was chosen because they felt that that time
was too short for the replicant to develop emotions that would be a
threat to humans.  It then was significant when we saw the replicants
had developed families -- something the designers didn't think could
happen.

   Drecker's replicant girl friend represented a technological 
breakthrough: she had been given a very detailed past, and 
consequently had been able to achieve significant emotional maturity.
Thus the "detector box" showed little difference from a human and it
took 120 increasingly subtle questions instead of the usual 20 or 30.
She had been made without the four-year limit, because she was "safe",
or at least safe enough to be worth taking the risk.

   Part of the question of the film, then, was that if such a 
replicant is now possible, could the world consider them as less than
human?  Could it justify using them as slaves?  The whole point of the
replicants' return to Earth was to extend their life span, which the
film used to show that their aspirations were the same as that of
people who lived many times as long.  The only answer they were given
was that they had seen and done things in their short life that most
humans only dream of doing; that they would have to be content with
that.

 -WBE

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #41
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, August 16, 1982 2:53AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #41
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 14 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:
           SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title &
           Stanislaw Lem & Starcrossed,  SF TV - Starlost,
                 Random Topics - Violence in Movies,
                    Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1982 12:05:31-PDT
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: Here's the plot, what's the title and where can I find it?

The setting: a lonely navigation beacon on the Moon, a sort of 21st 
century lighthouse.  The lone technician on duty there is out walking 
when he comes across a recent meteor crater.  At the bottom is a 
bowling-ball sized rock, perfectly round.  He brings the rock back 
into his station.  As soon as he turns his back on it, it HATCHES!  
Soon he is battling a fast-growing, vacuum-breathing, INVISIBLE
monster.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1982 1609-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Lem again


        Sorry about that last message. It got sent by mistake 
(miserable escape key...) I thought I sent a message asking it not to 
appear, but I guess our fearless moderator didn't get that, c'est la 
vie.

[ The message referred to originally appeared in volume 6, issue 37.
  -- Jim ]

        I would recommend reading the Cyberaid, and The Star Diaries.
These are in my opinion, the best of Lem. The Cyberaid is the story of
two "constructors" that try to out construct each other. It is broken 
up into a series of episodes. One example that I remember is when Turl
(sp?) out builds colleague by constructing an "N" machine, which 
builds anything that begins with an "N". This works out great except 
that Nothing begins with "N". One of the most enjoyable features of 
these books, are the names, puns, and plays on words, both verbal and 
visual (pretty good for a translated work).

        Two other stories I read weren't quite as good, they tended to
drag in spots, but they both had interesting premises. The first is 
Chain of Chance which is a detective story of sorts. I can't really
say more with out ruining the ending. The other is The Futurological 
Congress. The protagonist (I can't remember his name) attends the 
annual futurological congress, where the hotel is attacked by 
terrorists of one brand or another.  Pharmaceutical warfare is used 
either by the terrorist, or to quell the terrorists. For the rest of 
the story, you try to figure out what is real, and what is a 
hallucination. Some interesting ideas are presented, including how to 
improve the quality of life in a deteriorating world. If you like 
multiple levels of reality, you'd probably get a kick out of this one.

        The Investigation, Memoirs Found in a Bathtub, and Tales of 
Pirx the Pilot, I found to be heavy-handed and slow moving. In The 
Investigation, corpses start moving around, and some official (I can't
remember his name, I think he worked for Scotland Yard) is assigned to
look into it. If I remember correctly, nothing is resolved in the end.
Memoirs Found in a Bathtub has our protagonist wandering around what 
is left of the pentagon, or something equivalent. Everyone is a spy, 
even though no one has been outside the building for x years. He is 
charged with a secret mission, but he doesn't know what it is, and 
can't find his contact. This book is not worth reading. It is 
incredibly slow moving, and is reminiscent of Waiting for Godot. Tales
of Pirx the pilot is a collection of four stories whose only 
connection with one another is the protagonist's name.  If you liked 
the Chain of Chance, you might enjoy the last three stories, they all 
have the same sense of random events leading up to a seemingly 
sinister result.

        His latest book, Return from the Stars is all right, but not 
great. The hero arrives on earth ~150 years after going out a an 
trans-stellar expedition, to find every "beatrized" (sp?). The result 
is that everyone gets ill when they even think of a violence.  
Dangerous things like space exploration is out of the question 
needless to say. The novel tells the story of his adjustment.

        In summary, I liked the Cyberaid, and Star Diaries alot, Chain
of Chance, The Futurological Congress, and Return from the Stars a
little, and The Investigation, Tales of Pirx the Pilot, and Memoirs 
Found in a Bathtub. At his worst, Lem's books are deadly dull, and 
heavy-handed, at his best, they witty, satiric, and immensely
entertaining.

Happy reading,
Joe

------------------------------

Date: 12 August 1982 20:36-EDT
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: SF TV: Starlost

If you haven't read it by now, the book 'Starcrossed' by Ben Bova is
about as close as Ben could come to writing his experiences as
'Science' advisor without being sued by various parties (there is a
LOT of truth in the book, however, the truth is funny enough you
won't believe that). The original Science Advisor and the person who
developed the concept originally was Harlan Ellison (who is in Bova's
book, BTW). He wrote an article on the whole Starlost Fiasco for
Amazing stories magazine called 'Somehow, Toto, I Don't Think We are
in Kansas anymore' which I can probably get you a date on if you need
it. Starlost was a real great idea that was nicely butchered by a
bunch of non-SF BEM men. It ranks with me about the same level as
'Plan Nine From Outer Space', that is, so terrible that it was funny,
and funny because they were trying to be serious.

chuck

------------------------------

Date: 12-Aug-82 11:10:24 PDT (Thursday)
From: Mackey at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...

I think I remember that show.  It was about a family (father, son, and
daughter) who are out camping and fall through a time-warp onto a
planet with futuristic technology, and dinosaurs, but no civilization.
There were some neat ideas in the story, like the Pylons that were
communication/memory devices, and there were some interesting story
ideas.  But I gave up on it after awhile since I missed some episodes
where important things happened, and it seemed to repeat itself after
awhile (alot of saturday-morning kiddie stuff like people always
yelling and running away from something).

Does anyone remember Space Ark?  I think that was the name of it.  It
was about a large spaceship with millions of people scattered through
it like nations.  The story centers on a group of people who are
trying to find the damaged control center so the ship can go back on
course and order will be restored.  In the process, they meet all
kinds of strange societies that have formed on the ship as the result
of the disaster which also wrecked the control center.  I recall
reading that Harlan Ellison wrote several of the episodes (under the
name Penguin?).  It was done in video, and had several video effects.

[  I am not sure what TV series you are referring to in the first
   paragraph, but the one referred to in the second is definitely the
   Starlost.  -- Jim ]

Going way back (over 10 years)...does anyone remember Fireball XL-5,
Super Car, Stingray, or Thunderbirds?  These were all British SF
shows, with the characters being played by marionettes!  They had
action-packed stories, and good effects (though my memory may be a bit
warped since I was much younger at the time).  I even had a Fireball
XL-5 lunchbox, and a toy Fireball XL-5.  If only parents knew how much
these would be worth today.

These shows played in the S.F. Bay Area, and I'd be interested in
hearing if they are still alive somewhere...and are as good as I
remember.  Too bad we didn't have VCRs back then.

Kevin

[  We have already had an EXTENSIVE discussion of these TV shows (and
   many others) in SF-LOVERS.  These discussions appear in the
   following:

   volume 3, issues 117-120, 125-132, 134-136
             USC-ECLB::BUG:<JSOL.SF-LOVERS>SFLVRS.105
   volume 3, issues 137-148, 150-155
             USC-ECLB::BUG:<JSOL.SF-LOVERS>SFLVRS.106
   volume 4, issue 92
             USC-ECLB::BUG:<JSOL.SF-LOVERS>SFLVRS.110
   volume 5, issue 1
             USC-ECLB::BUG:<JSOL.SF-LOVERS>SFLVRS.201

   -- Jim ]

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1982  0:12:37 EDT (Sunday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Movie items

The sequel to Ralph Bakshi's movie of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is
scheduled for release around Christmas this year.

"In nearly all the scenes in which he appears, Steven Spielberg's
little extraterrestrial is portrayed by a $1.5-million automaton.
However, in certain difficult sequences, such as the trick-or-treat
expedition, E.T. was played by a 3-foot-7-inch actress inside a latex
costume."
 -from Robert Massimilian, CineMedia Publications

In London, the original six members of Monty Python (Eric Idle, Graham
Chapman, John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, Michael Palin) have 
begun shooting "The Meaning of Life", their first film in four years.

 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 1852-PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>
Subject: Violence.

A while ago, someone defended violence in movies by stating that 
violence is part of the real world, after all, and people should be
exposed to it to make them ready for reality, or some such.  No one
has argued with this.  I am about to.

Most people will never be exposed to the type of violence that modern 
movies use so lavishly.  Pain is real, death is real, but in general, 
most people will never see much in the way of "violence".  You
disagree ?  Consider: in Blade Runner, the reviews object to things
like the heros fingers being broken, and someones head being crushed.
In Wolfen, which I watched on HBO, there is this great scene where you
get to watch some persons head falling to the ground after it has been
decapitated by one of the wolfish creatures.  I won't even go into the
type of violence depicted in "maniac" type horror movies like like
Friday The 13th (today!).  Is this type of violence really present in
the lives of most people ?  I think not.

I was a gymnast and have seen people break arms, ankles, dislocated 
elbows, and such things.  I've had a fair share of injuries myself.  
None of this is violence.

Maybe someday there will be a war that I might have to fight in, and I
will be unlucky enough to watch some of my friends being blown to 
little bits.  This is violence, but it is obscured by a general 
atmosphere of pain.  I am not likely to be treated to close up views 
of the various pieces as they leave the center of the explosion and 
live to remember it in horror myself, anyway.  No one has objected much
to this type of violence in old John Wayne movies or mash, and such.

More likely I will be witness to a particularly gory car accident.  
This is unpleasant, but not really violence.

Or maybe ill be mugged, beaten, robbed...  This is still a far cry 
from having my brains slowly mashed by a robot type creature.

The type of violence depicted in movies DOES NOT, in general happen in
the real world.  More people see it in the movies than will ever see
it in reality.  Maybe it is harmful, maybe not, but I find it 
objectionable, and "violence is real" is no excuse !

Bill Westfield

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 at 0934-PDT
From: chesley.tsca at SRI-Unix
Subject: PACing it up

        Q: What do you call a pacman game given as a get well present?

        A: A sick's pac.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 13 August 1982  12:22-PDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
Subject: PacMan jokes


What do MR. and MS. PAC use when they want to call someone?

A PAC-TELefone

--JSol

p.s. some of you may not get this one.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 1729-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: PACPuns

        Forgive me Fadder, for I have punned...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1982 1739-PDT
From: Paul Asente <CSD.Asente at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Yet another video game joke


What is the best remedy for headaches caused by reading too many silly
Pac-man jokes???

An ice-PAC...

(Enough, already!!!)

[  Agreed.  --  Jim ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #43
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 4:36AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #43
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 15 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS,
                  SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 4:36AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL
Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS

Some of the following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was
submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX).  It was thought
to be of interest to the readership.  Since LOTS is not on the net,
responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people
should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1982 15:47:41-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: opinion from su-lots

   There are a lot of highly debatable opinions in this, in particular
Avery's attempts to judge SF on [literary] quality (I particularly
question the high value he gives to "style" (whatever that is).) I'll
address just two items of factual error in the compiled msgs:
   1. "Campbell's pulps" is an oxymoron. The first all-sf pulp was
AMAZING, established by Hugo Gernsbach in 1926 (although SF had been a
pulp genre for some years already---THE SKYLARK OF SPACE, commonly
considered a classic, dates from some time before this). Campbell was
first published in the mid-30's and became editor of ASTOUNDING in
1938 ('39?); he established only one other magazine, the short-lived
UNKNOWN.
   2. DUNE does not pander to any mystic cult; it came out before
almost all of the popular expressions of drugs (e.g. songs ranging
from "Mr. Tambourine Man" to "Puff, the Magic Dragon", the
"psychedelic" Beatles posters) and mysticism (again, the Beatles'
leanings (beginning with the strictly musical introduction of Ravi
Shankar), Guru Ji, etc.), appearing in two chunks in ASTOUNDING/ANALOG
(3 parts covering through Paul and Jessica's escape to the desert,
another 5 parts for the rest of the book). Herbert in fact shows many 
signs of the doctrinaire conservative, and probably would be very
annoyed if you suggested that he was bending to grubby popular taste,
but he has always been interested in the complex interlinkages of
ecology (witness a very early work, THE GREEN BRAIN) and in the
potential for making major steps in mental [evolution] (cf. especially
THE SANTAROGA BARRIER, which hasn't been picked up by cultists and
which deals primarily with a mind-expanding drug). DUNE took off
several years after serialization because of the rising interest in
drugs and mysticism but more because of the growing awareness of
ecology; a lot of what he says devolves into meaningless generalities
but it sounds complicated and aware, thus attracting an audience.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1982 1336-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Rating SF stories/authors

I've noticed, in the current discussion on what are "good" stories and
who the "good" authors are, a definite tendency toward "serious 
literature" snobbery.  If a book is written in a lighter vein, and 
isn't heavily into philosophy or science, it is downgraded.

Some of my favorite works are the lighter ones, frequently because of 
the \idea/, whether it's "quality" literature or not.  This is one of 
the reasons the Foundation trilogy is so well thought of - the \idea/ 
behind the story is so intriguing in and of itself that you can 
overlook the somewhat shallow characterization.  Phil Farmer, I will 
agree, isn't one of the greatest prose-slingers in the world, but some
of his books are among my favorites.  Just the \idea/ behind "Lord of 
the Trees" was enough to make me say "alll riight!" when I first saw 
it and buy it immediately.  After reading it, I'll agree it's not 
among the top 10 pieces of literature ever written, but I still have a
strong fondness for it because of what it is: a send-up of the Tarzan 
saga.

Other favorites/nonfavorites just plain seem to be a matter of taste.
I've noticed that you can get a lot of violent arguments started by 
bringing up "Dune".  It happens to be one of my 3 or 4 all-time 
favorites in any branch of literature, and other people seem to feel 
just as negatively about it.

Another thing that seems to be generally downgraded, or more often 
just plain ignored, when discussing "good" SF, is humor.  R.A.  
Lafferty is one of my all-time favorite SF authors, yet I hardly ever 
hear his stuff mentioned in these discussions.  Likewise Ron Goulart, 
whose stuff is \definitely/ "light weight", but generally good for a 
good read.  I don't so much like any specific one of his stories, as I
do all of them taken as a whole (some of it, admittedly, is pretty 
poor when taken by itself; I just don't reread those particular books,
although I'll \always/ at least try them no matter what they look like
in the store).

Enjoy, 
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1982 at 1436-PDT
From: chesley.tsca at SRI-Unix
Subject: Re: Book ratings

        Maybe we should devise a scheme for rating people who rate
books:

        HS - likes hardcore science only.
        HF - likes hardcore fantasy only.
        SV - likes sex and violence.
        LE - likes everything.
        HE - hates everything.
        MI - mentally incompetent.
        PI - physically incompetent.
        MPI - metaphysically incompetent.
        OP - only looks at the pictures.
        NR - never reads the books, just rates them.
        UC - unclassifiable.

        --Harry...

P.S. Just in case: this was just a joke; i.e., not serious; i.e., I
don't want to start a meta-book-review discussion.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 1028-PDT
From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS
Subject: SCIENCE FICTION RATING / Response & Remarks

        I'm quite pleased with the response that I've gotten on my
science fiction ratings, but what I would like to see most of all is
other rating lists so I can know who else to read.
        Some remarks were made on the rating scheme used.  Obviously
with over 130 titles listed I'm not going to write a paragraph on
each.  The grading scheme is the best for stating whether a book is
good or bad, which is the bottom line anyhow.  You will have probably
noticed that there are no D or F ratings and few C ratings.  This is
mainly an unintended side effect.  Usually I can tell if the book is D
or F quality at the bookstore, so it's never purchased.  The C books
are mainly accidents were I bought a book that initially looked good
but latter proved to be a turkey.  An example of a D grade book is:
Cornelius Chronicles by Michael Moorcook.  An F grade author is:  R.
A. Lafferty.  If you're into literary masochism, anything by lafferty
will satisfy your needs.
        A big problem with sci-fi is quality.  For example, if you go
to a used book store and pick out 20 SF novels at random you'll
probably find only one or two books that are B quality or better.
Even if you use the standard of the Hugo / Nebula award as a basis for
book selection your chances of finding B quality or better are about
50%.  This is part of the reason why many people do not like Sci-Fi
and why there is a need for quality rating lists.
        U.USED2 made some remarks about Frank Herbert that I basicly
agree with.  Frank Herbert is unusual in that his work "Dune" is a
towering masterpiece worthy of the highest praise but his other works
including his Dune sequels are second and third rate.  How a generally
third rate author can write such a fabulous work as "Dune" is one of
the great mysteries of Science Fiction.
        M.MCLURE had some verbal abuse directed towards Philip Jose
Farmer.  I suspect our tastes on SF are largely orthogonal, however
M.MCLURE is quite incorrect in down playing P.J. Farmer as an author.
Farmer's works "Too Your Scattered Bodies Go" and "The Makers of
Universes" are both excellent and highly recommended.  Farmer's best
work is "Night of Light" which is A+. Also "Inside Outside" which was
a Riverworld prototype novel should receive an A rating.  A word of
warning about Farmer is that he likes to write long series of novels
where the opening novel is top notch and the concluding novel
significantly degraded in quality.  The "Magic Labyrinth" is a case in
point, though I did give it a B rating.  Also Farmer has a very
masculine style of writing with plot and characters keyed towards a
male audience.  I should also point out that M.MCLURE is right about
"Citizen of the Galaxy" by Robert A.  Heinlein being an excellent
book.  I gave it an A- rating.
        I find all the feed back I'm getting on Ursula LeGuin
interesting but somewhat baffling.  Granted she's good but a
Silverberg or Niven she is not.  S.SAPHO raised a very interesting
point about the female perspective.  In reading the "Dispossessed" I
found the male characters always seemed to have a female undertone to
them and the plot had a define female aura to it, (I wish I could be
more specific).  Varley's "Titan" had the opposite effect, were all
the major characters and action involved are female but the fact that
the book was written by a man was always apparent.  Andre Norton is
the only woman author I've read whose femininity doesn't permeate
throughout the story.  Whether this is good or bad is debatable.
Generally I don't care for Norton's novels.  S.SAPHO felt that
LeGuin's works won't suffer from stylistic obsolescence, as is the
case with Vern, Wells and Asmiov.  I suspect she is wrong but only the
future will show that.  One author that is timeless is David Lindsay.
His two best works are:
                A Voyage to Arcturus            A+
                Haunted Woman                   A+
A "Voyage to Arcturus" was written in 1920 and is a fabulous novel and
will still be fabulous in the year 2120.  However I should warn you
that like French wine, David Lindsay is an acquired taste and he is
certainly not for everyone.  If there is sufficient interest I will
write an in depth review about this author and on Alexi Panshin's
"Anthony Villiers Series" as well.  I will produce a third and final
rating list when someone else has provided a list that I can contrast
against.  If someone would like to create a rational rating system and
set of standards superior to my own, I would be willing to use that
system in future ratings.

                                 G. Allen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 0933-PDT
From: Abe Fisher  <F.FLINTSTONE at SU-LOTS>
Subject: SF

It just occurred to me--a book which I read once, loved, and haven't
seen since:

"Operation Chaos" by  (I think) Poul Anderson.

It is at least possible that this is a lousy book in reality, as I
read it quite a long time ago, but I have wonderful memories of it.
It has a sense of humor, which helps a book rather a lot.

                                        abe

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 1020-PDT
From: L.LOLLIE at SU-LOTS
Subject: S.F writer of interest

 
    Having read a large amount of sf junk of late , I am pleased to
have run across a "new" (for me) author with a different approach
(flavor?) ; Gene Wolfe. Some recent work I have enjoyed is his New Sun
books ; in particular The Shadow of the Torturer. The title originally
turned me off and so it took a while before I got desperate enough to
try it. I am interested in hearing what anyone else knows of this
author (didn't notice him in any of the lists).
    
         lollie


------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 1982 1200-PDT
From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft)
Subject: Re: S.F writer of interest

Gene Wolfe is, perhaps, SF's premier stylist. 
I don't particularly care for his work, but that's just a matter of
taste. Some of his books:
        Peace (a mainstream novel)
        lots of poetry
        The Shadow of the Torturer (mentioned by lollie)
        The Claw of the Concilliator (book 2 of the New Sun)
	The Sword of the Lictor (book 3)
        some short story collections

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 0130-PDT
From: K.KARL at SU-LOTS
Subject: SciFi: Murray Leinster, et al

I'm overwhelmed by the response to my simple inquiry several weeks ago
for a Summer SciFi reading list.  Many thanks to all!

My first exposure to SF was a paperback THE WAILING ASTEROID by
M.Leinster which made a lasting impression; the movie was faithful to
the book but had a different title and starred John Saxon.  I believe
I've read more by Leinster but I cannot recall the titles.  I liked
his style.

The second SF book I read, ten or so years ago, was FOUR FROM PLANET
FIVE which also made an impression: four refugees from Planet 5
(presently our asteroid belt) were found entombed in ice, etc etc.
What impressed me was the room-temperature superconducting "wire" they
possessed.  This material has since become reality: last year in
ELECTRONICS magazine a researcher at Wright-Patterson AFB announced
that an experiment to produce ductile crystals resulted in a material
exhibiting ALL properties expected of a superconductor AT ROOM
TEMPERATURE: no resistance and the property of magnetic and
electrostatic shielding.  The ramifications of that discovery are
stupendous.  A follow-up blurb six months later confirmed that testing
of the material was continuing and that the material is reproducible
and still exhibits superconducting properties.  I do not subscribe to
ELECTRONICS and cannot find the articles.  I recall that the material
comprised boron and/or bromide and/or flourine.  Can anybody provide
more information on this subject?  (P.S. I do not remember who the
author of FOUR FROM PLANET FIVE was, can anyone provide this
information also?)

Finally, my reason for soliciting a reading list is due to my
impression that the only good SF is old SF by the masters from the
30s, 40s and 50s.  The few works I've encountered by modern authors
have been depressing and lack the "aliveness" of the masters' works.
Again I thank you for the lists and I will select random samples for
my Summer reading and hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised and
entertained.

My favorite SF book was LEST DARKNESS FALL.  No other book of any
genre has "stuck in my mind" and had as emotional an impact,
especially considering the altruism: to prevent the Dark Ages and the
stifling of Humanity's Progress and Development.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 19-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #44
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 1:54AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #44
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 1:54AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #44
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 19 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:
             SF Books - Query Answered & The Mathenauts &
             Ossian's Ride & Little,Big & The Elfin Ship,
      SF Movies - Destination Moon & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial,
 SF Music - Twilight Zone,  SF TV - Night Gallery & HHGttG & Dr Who,
                 Spoiler - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 82 16:14:58-EDT (Mon)
From: Webber.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: The Mathenauts

The story being sought is
     The Mathenauts  by Norman Kagan
it appeared in IF:Worlds of SF July 1964 (and also in one of J.
Merrill's anthologies)

Certainly to be recommended for anyone who thinks that reality is for
people who can't handle pure mathematics.

-----------------------  BOB

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 1725-EDT
From: DAVID I. LEWIN <LEWIN at CMU-20C>
Subject: here's the plot...

The Fred Hoyle story in which information sent from another star is
used by earth humans to build a device is "Ossians's Ride". In this
Eire becomes the leading technological country through this knowledge.
Also, a character is threatened as follows: he will be fed boron and
exposed to a fast neutron beam.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 at 1638-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11
Subject: Hoyle, ANDROMEDA, OSSIAN'S RIDE, scientific elites

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ANDROMEDA, etc. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, A FOR ANDROMEDA and its sequel ANDROMEDA BREAKTHROUGH were by Sir
Fred Hoyle with a collaborator, but it was John Elliot, not his son 
Geoffrey Hoyle.  Tho many people know Hoyle wrote these, surprisingly 
few realize that they are not truly original but are novelizations of 
a British TV series.  These books also seem to have started Hoyle off 
on a spate of plots involving a hero enamored of alien personae in 
beautiful female human bodies.

One of those, Hoyle's OSSIAN'S RIDE, is one of my favorite "chase"- 
type sf novels.  Nicholls' ENC.  OF S/F says that it is "interesting 
for the aggressively political stance taken by FH, who believes that 
science-educated people are more fit to govern than arts-educated 
people -- not just that numeracy is as important as literacy, but 
that, because a numerate training is less tied up with emotional 
questions than a literate training, it would give a necessary coolness
of judgment to the ruling classes".  Hmmmmmmm...

I suspect Hoyle's stance is culturally conditioned.  From what I have 
seen of British-type educational systems, even persons who have been 
channeled into "numerate training" have already had "literate 
training" comparable (or superior) to the bulk of persons with 
American B.A.'s in the arts/humanities.  (If nothing else, they have 
been forced through the early years in their system to write English 
clearly-- or fail their exams, regardless of the subject!)

So Hoyle's science-educated people are both "numerate" AND literate.  
In a way, in his British science-educated-people he has something 
approaching the best of "the two cultures".  The proportion of 
recipients of American B.S.'s who would be comparable is small.  I 
wouldn't consider the bulk of the people with American B.S degrees any
different in capability to govern than those with the B.A..

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1982 16:19:18-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: LITTLE, BIG

   Some of you will doubtless call me a lowbrow for this, but I was
not particularly enchanted by LITTLE, BIG; I found parts intriguing
and much of it irretrievably precious. There really isn't a plot; it's
chunks of the lives of several people, most of them related, with 
occasional happenings that require supernatural explanations.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 1437-EDT
From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS
Subject: Lousy new releases - is there an end in sight??

  Has anyone else noticed that the latest releases in SF and F books 
are really lousy??! And I think I'm being kind...
  Whatever you do, stay away from "The Elfin Ship", a real boring
novel by James P. Babbylock (spelling approx.). Its long, tedious, and
goes nowhere. Apparently James thinks that you can hook a reader
simply by introducing cute characters and villains. WRONG! This is
basically a 15 page short story which has been fed so much extraneous
garbage that it has expanded into something obscene.
  The basic story is that a 'cheeser' has to bring some of his goods
over to the dwarves so they can trade for honeycakes and elfin toys.
Of course no book would be complete w/out an almost deadly menace, and
this element is certainly used (poorly, mind you). So the big cheese
takes off down the river, and nothing exciting happens for the next
300 odd pages. If you have to read something stay away from this and
look for new traffic signs.

                                *Steve Sherman*

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 0849-PDT
From: Griffin at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Technical advisor "Destination Moon"


A friend of mine was looking over an old issue which stated that
Heinlein was the technical advisor for the movie "Destination Moon".
He's almost positive that it was not Heinlein, but WILLY LEY, the
world-famous aviator and rocket pioneer who died in a plane crash.

KG

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 0810-EDT
From: DEVON at MIT-DMS (Devon S. McCullough)
Subject: Twilight Zone

Where [in Cambridge/Boston area preferably] should I look to find the
score for the TZ theme, and the letters "Twilight Zone" in the exact
visual font used for the show?  The purpose is to digitize both, and
have a pop-up window appear shortly before 11pm on my screen, as a
reminder.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 0229-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Night Gallery


I recently saw an old favorite Night Gallery epsiode, and noticed who 
directed it.  The episode is the one where a tyranical rich blind
woman blackmails a doctor into grafting the optic nerves from a
desparate man onto her eyes, even though she knows that she will only
gain 12 hours of sight.  She feels that 12 hours is too precious to
pass up.  The night of the operation, she peals off the bandages and
sees for the first time.  But then the light goes away.  She seems to
be blind again....  I won't spoil the ending in case anyone hasn't
seen it.

The director was Steven Spielberg, which didn't suprise me at all once
I looked at the interplay of light and darkness, the fuzzy soft
lighting at points, and the good buildup of suspense.  Two questions;
What other semi-obscure things has he directed, and where did he get
his mania about soft fuzzy lighting?

Dan (dolata@sumex-aim)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 1049-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER at MIT-XX>
Subject: WGBH Programming

The Boston public TV station has been announcing on-air that they will
be showing BOTH Hitch-Hiker's Guide and a new season of Dr. Who this
fall.  (These announcements are made during the evening pledge period,
right after Dr. Who gets over).  They suggest that if you are happy
about this, you might send them a check...

Larry

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 1:54AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last three messages in this digest discuss some plot details in
the movie ET: The Extra-Terrestrial.  Some readers may not wish to
read on.


------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982  13:06-PDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
Subject: E. T.!!


Um, I finally saw it (lines got so bad in Hollywood that you had to 
stand in line 3 hours to buy a ticket 7 days in advance and stand in 
another 3 hour line to see the show a week later) when it opened in 
WestWood; and was amazed at how easily I got emotionally involved in 
the story. Spielberg (did I spell it right?) sure knows how to 
captivate his audience.

I did see a flaw; in the bicycle chase scene, two police cars were 
chasing the kids into a construction site, the kids turned a corner 
around a building and Eliot must have taken it too steep, and fell 
over, causing E. T. to tumble out of the basket and almost collide 
with one of the other bikes (not to mention the cop cars which slowed 
down so as to avoid hitting them, nice guys). Then a split second 
later they were on their way, it just didn't look like it was 
*supposed* to be that way.

Oh well, what a nit. It was truly a great movie. I hope we get a 
sequel out of it.

"I will be right here".
--JSol

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1982 0311-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Medics 'last gasp' efforts


If I came upon an alien who was GOING TO DIE without assistance, and I
was the only help available, I would apply whatever techniques I could
to try to save it.  Sure, there is a 99%+ chance that adrenalin will
not help it, and a good chance that it will harm it, but it is the
only thing that they had (other than lots of ignorance).  Better to
use something that has a slim slim slim chance of helping, than to use
nothing.  It is possible that Botulinus Toxin would do better, but
given that these men didn't have information, they did the best they
could.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 1982 13:57:46-PDT
From: rabbit!xchar at Berkeley
Subject:  E.T. phone home


WARNING:  SPOILER! : The following article discusses details of the
	construction and operation of the long distance communication
	device in the movie *E.T., the Extra-Terrestrial*.  Those
	readers who prefer to consider the communicator as just a
	hokey fake may not wish to read on.


Reprinted, with permission, from
 *Bell Labs News*, August 2, 1982, Vol. 22, No. 33, p. 1-2.

                       Bell Labs Henry Feinberg
              Meet the man who helped E.T. 'phone home'

     Millions of movie-goers this summer are seeing an ingenious 
device used to make a long, *long* distance call.  The movie is *E.T.,
the Extra-Terrestrial*.  The device is a whimsically Rube
Goldbergesque microwave system.  And if you're willing to wait out the
rather lengthy credits at the end of the picture, you'll see the name
of the communicator's designer, Henry Feinberg.
     Feinberg was working in the corporate exhibits group at Short
Hills last spring when director Steven Spielberg asked Bell Labs for
help in finding someone to create the "communicator."
     "I was delighted, just delighted," Feinberg said.  "It was right
up my alley."
     The communicator is critical to the movie's plot.  A homesick
extraterrestrial, or E.T., is stranded on Earth.  While watching TV in
the suburbs, a "Reach Out and Touch Someone" commercial inspires him
to try to "phone home."  With the help of a 10-year-old Earthling,
E.T. builds a communicator from found objects:  a golf umbrella, a
coat hanger, a coffee can and some electronic toys.  Then he beams his
signal into space, hoping his friends will pick it up and come back
for him.
     "I had three criteria for the communicator," Feinberg said.  "It
had to be plausible; it had to be made of everyday materials; and as
many of those materials as possible had to be within a 10-year-old's 
frame of reference."
     Feinberg built the device in his spare time, amid the clutter of
other hobbies in his Manhattan apartment.
     He started by rewiring a Texas Instruments "Speak and Spell" 
calculator, to disply a "new alphabet" for E.T.  He then ran wires
from each button on the keyboard to a row of bobby pins fastened to
the dowel of a wooden coat hanger.  The hanger was suspended over the
turntable of a children's phonograph.
     Feinberg painted a 10" circular sawblade ("the paint acts as an 
insulator," he explained) and put it on the turntable.  Then he
carefully scraped the paint from some areas of the disk so that when
it revolves, selected bobby pins make electrical contact with the
exposed metal, thus activating the appropriate buttons on the "Speak
and Spell."
     In the movie, the communicator is powered by the wind.  A string 
is tied between a tree branch and a ratchet made from a knife and
fork.  As the wind moves the branch, the string pulls the ratchet and
the fork moves the sawblade, tooth by tooth.
     Feinberg acoustically coupled a toy CB walkie-talkie to the
speaker in the "Speak and Spell" to bring the signal to the
transmitter.  The transmitter uses the UHF tuner from a television set
as a frequency multiplier, a coffee can as a microwave resonator, a
funnel as waveguide, and a golf umbrella lined with aluminum foil as a
parabolic antenna to beam E.T.'s call home.
     Feinberg hand-carried the device to the film studio in
California.  "I took a few days of vacation to help out on the set,"
he said.  "It was hard, intense work--12 hours a day--but a whole lot
of fun."
     Did the device work for E.T. and bring his friends back to rescue
him?  Ask any kid.
     It worked for Feinberg, right up to the point of transmission.  
And even that, he notes, looks plausible.
     "Cartoons use the concept of the *plausible impossible*," he
said.  "A character gets chased off a cliff and stays in mid-air for a
few seconds.  It's only when he looks down that he starts to fall.
E.T.'s communicator represents what I call the *plausible possible*.
I wanted some of my Bell Labs friends to look at it and say, 'Darned
if it couldn't work!'"
     As Feinberg said, the communicator project was right up his
alley.  For over twenty years, he has made a career of doing what he
likes best, "interpreting science for the public."
     He started out in the late 1950s as a production assistant on the
*Mr. Wizard* TV series, devising ways to demonstrate scientific
principles with common, household objects.  Then he joined Bell Labs,
working on films, displays, exhibits and science demonstrations.
     Currently he is on assignment at AT&T in New York, working on the
Bell System exhibits for Walt Disney's new theme park, EPCOT
(Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow).  And he's having a
ball.
     "I'm a kid at heart," he admits.  "Absolutely!"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 22-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #45
Date: Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #45
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #45
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 22 Aug 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:
             SF Books - Stanislaw Lem & Carlos Castenada,
              Humor - Puns,  SF Topics - Violence in SF,
    Random Topics - Violence in Movies,  SF Movies - Blade Runner,
             Spoiler - Violence in Movies & Blade Runner
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1982 1042-EDT
From: Don Provan at CMU-10A
Subject: Lem

        i've always been a big fan of Lem, even his bad stuff.  i
think it's a real mistake to underrate Memoirs Found in a Bathtub.
comparing it to Waiting for Godot is exactly correct, although
"reminiscent" is much too weak a word.  the mood and underlying
philosophy are exactly the same as Waiting.  the only real difference
is that in the Memoirs the main character is not passive, although his
existence is just as pointless.

        if this is damning evidence, so be it.  to me, Waiting for 
Godot is a great play.  if all you see in it is tedium, then you
probably should avoid the Memoirs Found in a Bathtub.

        another excellent novel by Lem that i haven't heard mentioned 
is Solaris.  of all the Lem, this one to me should be required
reading.  it's a high powered and thought provoking book about one man
trying to relate to a planet which is an intelligent life form.
someone who has only read his humorous work may be surprised at the
seriousness of this one.  it was made into a four hour movie by some
russian film maker many years ago.  the only version i've ever heard
of showing in the u.s. was one cut down to normal 2 hour movie size.

        one can't stress the translator's role in Lem's work enough.  
in Cyberaid, one begins to wonder in Lem wrote some of the passages in
english versions.  it's hard to believe a translator could come up
with translations that work so well.  there's some word work of such
high quality that i can't remember ever seeing an english book which
abused the language so eloquently.  perhaps some one with a copy of
Cyberaid at hand could copy in a passage to let everyone else in on
what we're talking about.

        my favorite story in Cyberaid is a story about someone telling
a story about three robots telling stories, one of which is about a
machine that a king can plug into to have dreams, and in one of the
dreams there's a story....etc.  and at the end of each story, you're
pulled back into context without losing a step.  a real masterpiece.
                                        don

------------------------------

Date: Sat Aug 14 23:13:35 1982
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo
Subject: Carlos Castenada's Books of Yaqui Knowledge as Fantasy?

One of the articles McLure copied over from LOTS accused Dune and
Stranger in a Strange Land of being intellectually dishonest books
that pandered to shallow mystics.

Well, have any of you read any of Carlos Castenada's books?  I read
them as a teen-ager,when they came out.  A lot of my friends were very
influenced by his accounts of his lessons from "Don Juan", a "Yaqui
Indian " sorcerer.

His earliest two books were written when a considerable number of
people were involved with so-called "consciousness-expanding" drugs.
In these two books Castenada is taught through naturally- occurring
consciousness-expanding drugs.

By the time he wrote his third and fourth books, drugs had lost their
charm for most people.  Strangely enough, they had lost their charm
for Don Juan too!  Mystic auras, mind power, and personal growth were
the order of the day with Don Juan.

I understand that in his latest two books Carlos learns about feminine
power.

I accuse Castenada of being an out and out fraud, who has
calculatingly concocted stories which have seduced his readers with
untruths that may have caused them to base their parts of their lives,
and/or their personal philosophies upon his lies.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 82 9:59:19-EDT (Tue)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: startrek limerick

Not bad, but I really do prefer good 'ol puns.

But be careful never to point a pun at someone, because it might be
loaded.
 ... And you might kill your pun-pal.
 ... And end up in the punitentary.
 ... That would be to much punishment to bear.
 ... etc.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 82 23:13:56-EDT (Mon)
From: Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Why is the future so violent?

Science fiction deals with our futures and directions.  The ex- 
istence of our future is not an article of fiction, however.  We can
speculate and fantasize about our futures.  We can influence our
futures, too.  I'd like to throw out a few thoughts here and see what
kind of discussion they provoke.  How much of yourself will you see in
some of this?  How are you influencing our collective future?

Think for a moment or two about some of the stories that have had some
effect on your thoughts.  What was the last book you read where the
hero was a person who regularly tried to negotiate and counsel peace?
I'm not talking about books where the hero/heroine was in the right
place at the right time and was able to stop some disaster in the
making.  I'm talking about stories about people whose philosophy was
really based on peace instead of violence.

How about speculative fiction?  It is easy to conjure up memories of
interstellar warfare...the Dorsai, Pournelle's mercenaries, Ensign
Flandry, Joe Haldeman's stories....  The list goes on and on.  The
only memorable character who regularly attempts negotiation is Retief
(Keith Laumer).  Why do the people who envision our future see it to
be so violent?

Perhaps the roots lie deeper.  Who are our heroes right now?  The pro
football player whose talent is running over the other players?  The
heavyweight boxer?  The TV cops?  Why don't we idolize people who save
thousands of lives, or at least try?  Who in America will remember
Phillip Habib 5 years from now?  We have issue after issue of major
magazines talking about Colonel Beckworth who led the commandos in the
abortive raid to free the hostages in Iran, but who remembers the name
of the Algerian Prime Minister who negotiated their eventual release
(and was later killed in an airplane crash while trying to negotiate a
ceasefire in another conflict)?  How many Jonas Salk dolls were ever
made, as compared to GI Joe and Megaforce toys?  Name 5 recipients of
the NFL player of the year award.  Now name 5 recipients of the Nobel
Peace Prize.  Who are *your* heroes?  Who do you respect?

How do we encourage our children to live in a more peaceful world?  We
have the Saturday morning cartoons where the roadrunner has become
more sadistic (as noted in a previous submission).  Their comic books
and movies feature whole planets being destroyed by supposedly
intelligent beings.  And how about the video games?  You can go out
and destroy aliens and enemy planes, but just try to negotiate.  It is
simply kill or be killed.  I hope that aliens from another planet have
the good sense (or good luck) to land in a country that has never had
any video games.

to belabor a point, next time you go into a video arcade, or a game
store (like D&D, Traveller, War in Europe, etc.), or look at a home
video game system, see if you can find any peaceful games.  Think
about it the next time you read about the President appointing an
actor or businessman as an ambassador to another country.  Think about
it the next time Congress budgets more money for military bands than
they do for the entire National Endowment for the Arts.  Think about
it when we're about to spend $30 billion on MX missiles.

I just wish that what I see around me was the fiction.  Can someone
direct me to some science fiction which presents a gentler view of
ourselves and our futures?  Better yet, can someone direct us all
towards a more peaceful future?


                        Gene Spafford
                        School of Information and Computer Sciences
                        Georgia Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last two messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the
movie Blade Runner.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1982 12:40 PDT
From: SJohnson.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Violence : Blade Runner vs Road Runner (Semi-Spoiler)

While it may seem ridiculous to measure violence on an objective
scale, please bear with me. I saw Blade Runner this weekend, and yes,
I felt that it was very violent, from a "subjective" viewpoint.
However, when I make an "objective" comparison between BR and RR, the
latter comes out to be the more violent of the two. For example, it is
subjectively more violent to see Roy Batty break 3 of Deckard's
fingers than it is to see the Coyote run over by a train. But looking
at it objectively, I would rather be Deckard than the Coyote. After
all, I am a \real/ person, living in the \real/ world, and a \real/
train is going to \really/ kill me.

Movies like Blade Runner show us the violence close-up, in a personal
way, which is what a lot of people seem to be objecting to. These
movies are alleged to have a negative effect on certain viewers,
making them more likely to commit violent acts. I would like to think
that the average viewer is not a latent psycho-path. "Road Runner"
(substitute "Star Wars", "Hawaii Five-0", etc) shows me all the fun,
but none of the gory, disgusting truth. Blade Runner (and 
films/books/tv shows like it) shows me why I want to avoid violence,
and keep it from happenning to myself and others.


- Swen

------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1982 0939-EDT
From: [10,104] at Avsail 
Sender: ROUHIER at WPAFB-AFWAL
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #40

        The idea of smallpox vaccinations in Blade Runner is not 
without precedence. At the present time every member of the U.S.'s 
armed forces, active duty and reserves, is required to have smallpox 
vaccinations (along with a host of others). I've had two within the 
last twelve years. Since he works for a government police force I 
wouldn't be surprised if he gets inoculated for everything under the
sun.

Bye,
Chuck

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 25-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #46
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1982 6:02PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #46
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1982 6:02PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #46
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 26 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:
                        SF Fandom - CHICON IV,
      SF Books - Down to a Sunless Sea & Stanislaw Lem & VALIS,
                   Humor - Genderless Video Games,
                  SF Movies - TRON,  Spoiler - TRON
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1982 2104-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SFL Party at CHICON

We have received little response to the SFL party query, and may have 
trouble making contact with all those who want to attend but haven't 
yet been in touch.  Anyone who is interested, look on the Con's 
bulletin board for a notice with ZELLICH@OFFICE-3 and a room number.  
The party is currently planned for Friday night about an hour after 
the GoH speeches and attendant ceremonies.  See y'all there, Rich

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 82 8:46:25-EDT (Tue)
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) <earl@BRL>
Subject: Down to a Sunless Sea

DTASS has it's faults (some things a little "far fetched"), but in 
general it's worth reading.  It should appeal to anyone with an 
interest in aviation; some of the action is the most realistic I have
ever read.  One nitpick:  the author several times refers to a safety
lever on a revolver; what kind of revolver has a safety like that??
(Does the old Webley have one?)

------------------------------

Date: 21-Aug-82 20:16:25-PDT (Sat)
From: sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
Subject: Lem

Re: Lem again [V6 #41, from JAF at MIT-EECS]

I beg to differ with some of JAF's judgments about (and titles of) 
Stanislaw Lem's books.  I would rank Lem among my top five or so 
favorite authors of science fiction and I hope more Americans take the
time to read the books of this remarkable Pole.  I have a fairly 
extensive set of books by Lem in translation and I thoroughly enjoy
all of them, not just the satirical books.  I will profile them
quickly and give my own recommendations.

SOLARIS:  This book of his seems to be most widely known in the West, 
partly because the Russians made a movie out of it and partly because 
it was translated a long time ago.  The current paperback version (I 
think it's Berkley) has a translation that is just awful and spoils
the book.  I think the book might otherwise be quite compelling:  it
is a rather Dickian story of reality and surreality on board a
research station on the sentient planet Solaris.

THE INVINCIBLE:  Also spoiled by a bad translation.  This is a serious
novel about the nature of intelligence in a similar vein to SOLARIS.  
The spaceship Invincible discovers a planet that once held a 
civilization yet now appears to be lifeless; but it is and it isn't.

THE CHAIN OF CHANCE:  Another bad translation.  An ex-astronaut is 
called in to serve as a guinea pig in an experiment to find a reason 
for the deaths of several middle-aged men.  As things turn out, this
is the wrong way to go about it.  This book is a statement of Lem's
unique philosophy of nature.

THE INVESTIGATION:  A quite good translation.  This is a very 
atmospheric science fiction detective novel, but the atmosphere is
more that of Lovecraft than of Chandler.  A number of cadavers have 
disappeared and some of them appear to have simply gotten up and
walked away.  The setting is England, and Scotland Yard is called in
to investigate.  The solution to the mystery will never satisfy
Chandler fans but I found it extremely intriguing (unlike JAF,
apparently).  One of my favorites.

TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT:  A reasonable translation.  These are 
(somewhat dated, and incomplete) stories of Pirx, a young man who 
progresses from space cadet to space pilot.  The first stories are 
amusing, light pieces; these change to stories with an Asimovian 
concern with life amid technology and conclude with a darkly
impressive science fiction ghost story.

RETURN FROM THE STARS:  Just finished reading this one.  It was
written nearly twenty years ago but only was translated recently (a
good job, too).  Hal Bregg has returned from an interstellar mission
that lasted 10 years ship time and 127 years Earth time.  Earth's
culture has changed radically in this period of time and Bregg's (and
the reader's) experience is very disorienting.  A very good treatment
of a classic theme.

THE CYBERIAD:  (Is Cyberaid a powdered soft drink for robots? ("Just 
add a few tablespoons of positrons and stir...")  Sorry.) These are
the crazy adventures of Trurl and Klapaucius, the great (and sometimes
not-so-great) robot inventors.  The exuberant style is amazingly well 
translated by Michael Kandel.  A fave.  Give this one to your most 
dedicated computer addict.

MORTAL ENGINES:  This book contains the Robot Fables, along with a new
Ijon Tichy story, a new Pirx story and a strange and beautiful 
novellette called "The Mask".  The Robot Fables are a kind of prequel 
to the Trurl and Klapaucius stories.  Excellent translation by Michael
Kandel, with a long and interesting foreword.

THE STAR DIARIES (of Ijon Tichy):  More wonderful silliness, with even
sillier illustrations by the author.  Ijon Tichy lives and travels in
a universe that manages to contain parodies of almost every science 
fiction construct ever thought of, and a few that are yet to be.  
Another brilliant Kandel translation.  Highly recommended.  The
preface gives a good etymology of Lem's name.

THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS:  An independent tale of Ijon Tichy, in 
novel form.  This one travels through Philip Dick country when a 
congress Tichy is attending is attacked with pharmaceuticals.  This is
yet another comment on the nature of reality.

MEMOIRS FOUND IN A BATHTUB:  A harsh satire of military bureaucracy 
which takes place in the underground bastions of the Pentagon after
the bomb.  The depiction of police paranoia in this absurd novel makes
me wonder if it is just the Americans whom this barb is meant to
prick.

A book which I haven't managed to read and which I would love to get
my hands on is A PERFECT VACUUM, which is a series of prefaces to very
profound (but alas, unwritten) books.  I'm not sure if it exists in 
translation yet; I may have to learn Polish, sigh....

[A comment on the medium:  I really like the book reviews in SF-L even
when I disagree with them; I hope we see more.  I'm afraid I've really
gotten tired of reading movie reviews in SF-L, and there's so many
good books out there I know I've read that other people ought to hear
about, and even more I haven't read which I would like to hear
about...]

  Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1982 1810-PDT
From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis)
Subject: VALIS -- a personal review

        What ever else one might wish to say about VALIS, it
is most certainly autobiographical. Philip K Dick plays  the
major role,  and Doris  X, an  old friend  of mine,  is  the
number two figure (Sherri) through out the first half of the
book. I and various other friends appear as minor characters
or just in passing.  Several others I don't know at all. The
only event that I know to be inaccurate is that Doris didn't
die in her second bout with Cancer, which implies that  most
of the other weird things that occur are real.

        When I returned from the Peace Corps in 1974, I  met
"Phil" , a  friend of Doris'  who lived next  door, and  his
cat.  He struck me as  a depressed, moribund character  with
little interest in  people and none  in living, exactly  the
last type  of person  Doris needed  at that  time. I  didn't
realize that this was Dick and that he and Doris were lovers
until last week.

        VALIS is  not  so  much science  fiction  as  it  is
religious/mystic fiction  (however  much  of  it  really  is
fiction!). Dick writes very well. He uses a huge  vocabulary
makes innumerable literary references, and a fair number  of
personal ones too. Having read the  Bible, alot of SF &  all
of Dick's works  would certainly help  in understanding  the
book.  Knowing the people involved would also.

        The  book   is   angry,  confused,   neurotic,   and
brilliant, like Phil was.  He yearns for, and  half-believes
in, a mystic, quasi-religious reality where spiritual elites
exist and discover each other through subtle messages hidden
on TV  and in  movies. Age-old  conspiracies, "Others",  and
God-cum-human are an integral part of the universe. Just  as
we expect these things in SF, Dick proposes them to be real.

        Dick exposes himself as he is, he extols the mystic,
and bemoans  his  personal  loss of  the  two  girls  [sic].
Ironically Doris now bemoans HER  personal loss of two  men,
David (a grand mal  seizure), and now  Phil. Somehow I  find
all of this quite fitting, like closing a circle.

        I cannot recommend VALIS as  a book to read to  very
many people. Only  if you are  particulary intrigued by  the
questions posed above and posses  a fine sense of the  agony
of both  life  and love,  and  can empathize  with  a  man's
struggling would you enjoy reading this. [Robert, YOU  would
understand.]

        If you still  think of  great writers  as being  all
around  fantastic   people,   ones  that   are   conversant,
personable, and in control of their own lives (like I  did),
then avoid VALIS.  He leaves few emotional stones  unturned,
and they are real.

-Bil

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 1416-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: More Wretched PAC Humour

        What do you call a flat PACMAN?

        A Disc PAC...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1982 6:02PM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last three messages in this digest touch upon some plot details in
the movie TRON.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 20 August 1982 19:15 edt
From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The bit in TRON

Did anybody notice that the so-called "bit" in TRON was actually 
tristable?  I suppose this makes it a trit.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: 30-Jul-82 20:02:45 EDT
From: DUNTEMANN.WBST
Subject: TRON's Bit

Actually, the Bit from TRON is a direct descendant of the Cute Robots
(TM) we've seen so much of in recent years.  I suspect they get
created in random framing errors, or else spontaneously a arise out of
alpha particle radiation from the substrate of that most peculiar
universe.  I kinda liked the Bit, and, knowing Disney, I rather
suspected it was going to turn up again later in the move to save
Flynn's skin before rolling over and dying sentimentally.

One wonders how much of the flick ended up decorating a dumpster
somewhere.  (Find me that dumpster!)

--Jeff Duntemann (duntemann.wbst at PARC-MAXC)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1982 03:02:36-PDT
From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jab at Berkeley
Subject: Disney's Divine Comedy


I recently had a discussion with a English professor who had just seen
TRON.  He kept commenting on the similarities to The Divine Comedy
(specifically, The Inferno).

The descent through Hell, and finding Satan at the bottom (buried to
the neck) seem very familiar.

        Jeff Bowles

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 28-Aug  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #47
Date: Saturday, August 28, 1982 2:11AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #47
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, August 28, 1982 2:11AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #47
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 28 Aug 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:
                 SF Books - Coils & Courtship Rite &
                  Stand on Zanzibar & Poul Anderson,
                 SF TV - Land of the Lost & Starlost,
                    Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 08/21/82 02:53:52
From: JEH@MIT-MC
Subject: Review:  \Coils/ by Fred Saberhagen and Roger Zelazny

Micro-review:  Worth reading once.  Good writing, interesting ideas, 
but not a particularly memorable story.

Zelazny really is over-using the rediscovery-of-forgotten-past
plotline.  At least in \Nine Princes in Amber/ there was some excuse
for it:  The reader NEEDED a slow, easy introduction to Corwin's home
environment.  Here (as in many of Z's other books),
rediscovery-of-past is the whole story.  The obstacles placed in the
hero's path are interesting, and his way of getting past them is
interesting and well-described -- he can psionically link to, get
information from, and control computers -- but the overall story isn't
that momentous.  The writing is very good, and each chapter flow along
well enough, but at the end I realized I'd been cheated a bit -- as if
I'd eaten and paid for a dinner that tasted good, but which was
neither filling nor nourishing.  In particular, the final battle
between Our Hero and his enemies wasn't particularly exciting, and not
at all climactic; it was just another of his troubles, and I had to
keep glancing at the page numbers to be sure that it WAS the final
battle (even though the authors kept reminding me that it was, about
once every three grafs, in so many words).

Worth reading, I suppose, but not worth buying unless you can get it
for under two bucks.  Sorry about that, Fred and Roger -- I really
expected better.

   ----Jamie Hanrahan

------------------------------

Date: 15 August 1982 1708-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: Courtship Rite

This story was serialized in the Feb 1, Mar 1, Mar 29, and May issues
of ANALOG.  As it so happens, I just finished reading it last night
(I'm behind on my reading).  It deals with the bizarre culture created
on a planet by a starship apparently escaping a war.  Much of the
story deals with the strange customs of the people, and their origins.
As one of the characters says in the story, you may not like the
rituals, but they were developed to solve a problem, and even though
we may have forgotten the problem, it is probably still there waiting
to come back if we throw out the ritual.

The story is at least as good as anything else I've read lately.

------------------------------

Date: 25-Aug-82 12:01AM-EDT (Wed)
From: Todd Allen <Allen at YALE>
Subject: Raiders OTLA - John Brunner - Poul Anderson

Just came back from seeing "Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the 4th or
5th time.  (Yes, I know, not SF!)  Was amazed at something -- that
movie runs less than two hours, yet it feals much longer.  Not that
it's boring, but that there's so much packed into it.  Some how you
feel that it could end when the board the freighter, yet it keeps on
going. AMAZING!!!  Star Wars had the same quality.  This may be a big
factor in their popularity.

Our arpa gateway was down for a while, so I'm about 1&1/2 weeks behind
in my reading.  To respond to some things that have flown by ...

RE: From: "Ross Nelson" <N.NELSON at SU-LOTS>
    John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" ranks with "1984" and
    "Brave New World" as anti-utopias.

No doubt about it, Zanzibar is one of the best SF novels ever written.
It is interesting and absorbing, not only for its plot and ideas, but
also for its style and manner of presentation.  Perhaps the only TV
documentry that never made it to TV.  However, why no mention of "The
Jagged Orbit", also by Brunner, written the year after Zanzibar.  It
is every bit as powerful, well written, and relevant.  Zanzibar and
Orbit may be the two best books Brunner has ever written.  Certainly
Brunner's recent output has been a disappointment.  (Most of his work
up to Zanzibar and Orbit realy turned me on -- the last 14 years have
been mostly down hill.)

Zanzibar and Orbit are two great books, neither one of which has
received its due.  Zanzibar is well known, but never won any awards or
great acclaim.  Orbit is virtually unknown, but definitely the equal of
Zanzibar.  If you haven't read it do so.  Read them both - together -
they are related, but not the same.

Can someone tell me ...
   I once heard the Bunner did a sequel to Zanzibar (not Orbit).  Is
this
   true?  Title please!

On to Poul Anderson ...

I think I have read more works by Anderson than by any one else
(except maybe Asimov, who is a daily occurrence and as inescapable as
the rising of the sun!).  In recent editions of the digest and in
reviews I have seen many complaints about the generally poor use of
language and quality of writing.  Nabokov was pointed out as one of
the few who used English well, and literately.  To this I answer, READ
THE WORKS OF POUL ANDERSON - anything by him (even "The Avitar").

At his very worst, Anderson's work is merely well written and
enjoyable.  At his best (or almost there), is prose is as beautiful
and subtle as any written in any language.  Combine this with an
informed, intelligent, and compassionate understanding of the human
condition, and an immense knowledge of history, folk lore, mythology,
literature, and technology, and you have a giant of a writer.

Contrary to what some would have you believe, the writers of the
forties and fifties are distinguishable, their works have other than
historical significance, and they are enjoyable even if you weren't
under 20 when the stuff was first written (much of Anderson's best
work was written before I was 7).  Hopefully, people that say
otherwise are saying it only for shock value.  If they truly believe
what they say, then one must wonder just how perceptive they are as
readers and as people.

Back to Anderson...  I don't mean to say that everything he has
written is of great significance, certainly not.  He has written his
share of space operas.  However, even his space operas are no more
"just space operas" that "High Noon" is just another western.  Among
other things, his extreme care and craftsmanship in his use of the
language.

Anderson is so easy to read, it is often possible to miss the deeper
aspects of his books and read them just as escapist literature.  It
took me years to realize how beautifully crafted ALL his writting is.
What made me go back and explore this was my first encounter with his
Hugo winning "Goat Song" (Orpheus retold, but with very different
impact and meaning).  It was while I was rereading his works, enjoying
the writting, that I discovered that even when plots and characters
bore no relation, most of his books are tied together by a common
idea/motive (not profit!).

Consider, for example, the set of books "The Dancer From Atlantis" (a
marvel!), "The Corridors of Time" (recently downplayed in the digest),
"Three Hearts and Three Lions", "The Golden Slave", and his recent
historical trilogy biographing Harold Hardrede (the titles don't come
to mind at the moment.  These books span a period of over thirty
years, yet, if you look very closely, there is a common thread running
through all of them.  What is happening, is that he is looking very
closely at our history and folk lore, exploring the possibilities
being the myths and legends and exploring what makes us (our culture)
what we are.  He seems to be exploring the the way events and people
shape a culture, with the aim of understanding our own culture better.
(Ultimately, he is hooked on his own viking heritage.) (PS: Even van
Rijn fits in with this.)

About "Brain Wave" (reviewed in a recent digest) -- that book was
written in the mid fifties.  Given the political and social atmosphere
at the time, it is not surprising that Anderson felt the brain wave
necessary for liberalization of social, sexual, and dress codes.  The
shocks that the USA went through in the early sixties, that resulted
in this liberalization, was probably almost as great as that resulting
from Anderson's brain wave.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 82 0:53:02-EDT (Tue)
From: Speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...

        Date: 12-Aug-82 11:10:24 PDT (Thursday)
        From: Mackey at PARC-MAXC
        Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...

        I think I remember that show.  It was about a family (father,
        son, and daughter) who are out camping and fall through a
        time-warp onto a planet with futuristic technology, and
        dinosaurs, but no civilization.

This show was called 'Land of the Lost', a Sid and Marty Kroft
production aired on Saturday mornings.

        There were some neat ideas in the story, like the Pylons that
        were communication/memory devices, and there were some
        interesting story ideas.

One of those storys, called 'Tag Team', was written by Larry Niven
and, true to Niven's style, focused more on the interactions of people
than on his technology.

        Does anyone remember Space Ark?  I think that was the name of
        it.  It was about a large spaceship with millions of people
        scattered through it like nations.

Close...this one was produced in Canada and was called 'Starlost'.
Three people are trying to find the control center onboard a gigantic
space ark.  Apparently some catastrophe has made the earth
uninhabitable so various segments of the earth's population have been
uprooted and placed inside giant domes (called bio-spheres I think).
Kind of like the idea behind 'Silent Running' but on a much grander
scale.

They get hold of a pass key that allows them to move between domes.  
While on the outside they discover that a plague of some sort has
killed the entire crew...except those sealed within the domes...

                                                - Speaker

                                                speaker.Umcp-Cs@UDel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 18 August 1982 14:53 edt
From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Land of the Lost

The moderator correctly pointed out that the TV show about a family
that falls into this weird land was not called "Starlost".  The name
of the show was "Land of the Lost".  It was a Saturday morning TV show
about eight years ago.  It actually was quite good, as I remember it.
There was a race of neanderthals, and they had a language of their
own.  The makers of the show seemed to give that up in the second or
third season, and they excused it by having the little girl teach them
how to speak English.  I even remember a TV Guide article about the
language.
                                barmar

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 82 17:13:56-EDT (Wed)
From: Charles Kennedy <kermit@BRL>
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #41

The name of the Saturday morning show that Mackey mistakenly mentioned
as being "The Starlost" is really "The Land of the Lost".  I too found
the Pylons very interesting since they seemed technically
sophisticated.  I believe that in one of the episodes, one of the
Pylons that controlled the weather had gone beserk (or had been
sabotaged, I can't remember), but the father was able to get the Pylon
working again.

                                        Chuck Kennedy
                                        <kermit @ brl >

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 15:26:24-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: The Starlost

   The pilot episode for this deservedly short-lived TV series was
novelized by Edward Bryant under the title PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES; I'd
call it pretty good 50's SF (which is further ahead than most TV was
at that time). The book also has "Somehow I don't think we're in
Kansas, Toto", which is both the correct quote and Ellison's essay on
what happened to the show. In it he specifically says that he demanded
at the outset that Bova be hired as science consultant; Ellison had
used Bova's technical knowledge before (notably in a short story about
cars dueling on the freeway) and knew he couldn't provide the needed
realism himself.
   Bova actually bailed out in disgust fairly early---I think before
the first episode was aired. The one instance that he can point to of
his advice actually being taken is in the opening shot(?), in which
some jackass had wanted to show that the generation ship was drifting,
aimless and uncontrolled; the camera was supposed to pan around an
"Enterprise"---style control room and lock on a sailing ship's
steering wheel rocking back and forth in the middle of all this
high-tech clutter. Ben did persuade them that the wheel didn't belong.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 1982 1236-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Items


   Regarding Kevin Mackey's message in V6#41, the Saturday morning 
show was "Land of the Lost".  Not the best stories, but some nice 
animation and other effects.  It made extensive use of a "magicam" 
video system for placing live action within miniature sets.

   I think "The Starlost" listed a Cordwainer Bird as the creator, and
that was Ellison's pseudonym.....not sure.

   Has there ever been a discussion about "Robinson Crusoe on Mars"?  
One of the best, a very good film, especially considering when it was 
made ( 1964).

   Here are the titles, who are the authors?
      1. "Operation Springboard"- a crippled teenager becomes a member
         of the crew of the first ship to Venus...
      2. "Space Winners"- some young people take part in an inter-
         planetary exchange program and get stranded on a planet
         where the primary weapon is the quarterstaff...
   Both of these are juvenile type stories.

   Did ( or does) anyone out there read comics?  I really liked the 
Legion of Super-Heroes in the 60's.  Does anyone remember Spyman, 
featured in the short-lived Harvey comic of the same name?  He was a 
government agent who had lost his hand disarming a nuclear weapon w/o 
any tools.....his hand was replaced by a robot one, with all sorts of 
gadgets like detachable finger-grenades.  Good stuff.

Steve ( carroll@isif)

------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1982 17:18-EDT
From: junkmail.umcp-cs@udel-relay
Subject: to the person who replied to my mail

Here's a TIP from me that you can use:
        Whenever you are thinking of accusing someone of TACtlessness,
        remember this TIP well, atTACh a rope around your neck, and
	direct your atTACk to yourself. We'll all be happier.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line:  1-Sep  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #48
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:16AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #48
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:16AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #48
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Sep 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:
         SF Books - Stalking the Nightmare & Lensman Series &
       D'Alembert Series & Robert Heinlein & Podkayne of Mars &
     Patricia A. McKillip & Ray Bradbury,  SF Music - Leviathan,
      SF Movies - The Martian Chronicles & The Illustrated Man &
        Revenge of the Jedi,  Humor - Genderless Video Games,
                  Spoiler - The Revenge of the Jedi
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 82 11:36:08-EDT (Fri)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Stalking the Nightmare

     Harlan Ellison's latest work, a collection of pieces spanning the
breadth of his career, has just been released by Phantasia Press, a
limited-edition house in (I think) Illinois.  They're releasing the
book in two versions, a $60 signed, numbered, and slipcased very
limited edition, and a $16 "trade" version.  Even the "trade" version,
though, has a fairly small print run (well under 10,000 copies), which
means that unless there's a major publisher that is also releasing the
book, it's not going to be very available.
     And that's a pity, as it contains some excellent material.
Harlan has re-written or modified much of the old stuff, to its
benefit, and included some new or out-of-print material as well.  The
book is mostly fiction, but also contains four pieces of non-fiction.
As always, Ellison's pen seems dipped in acid, but he seems more
capable of laughing at himself than some of his recent collections
have portrayed him.  The intro by Stephen King, written in Ellisonic 
style, is a nice touch.
     To my mind, the book is worth owning, if only to hear Ellison
tell how he worked for Disney Studios for four hours (before being
fired for a reason I won't give away, but which Paul Krassner fans
will especially enjoy).  Also especially good are the short story "The
Grail," and the new rewrite of his introduction to Bova's "The
Starcrossed."

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1982 1226-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: E.E. "Doc" Smith Queries


1) One printing of the Lensman series did list the
        "Spacehounds of the IPC" as part of that series.
        It is not, however, although it might fit into
        that timeline.

2) The "Family D'Alembert" series is still in print,
        to my knowledge.  I seem to recall a re-printing
        of one of the books last fall.

        This series was based upon notes left by the late
        Doc Smith, and were adapted into novel form by
        writer Steve Goldin, under contract from Smith's
        wife and daughter.

        I still see these books in print here in the Bay
        Area.  I suggest you check Sci-Fi and Comix stores:
        they might have them.  If not, let me know, and I
        can probably arrange to pick them up for you.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1982 1628-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Heinlein, the master...

        I'm out of PAC Puns for the time being, so I'll turn my
attention to another subject.

        In Volume 6, issue 39, there was a good deal of discussion of
both Heinlein's juveniles, and some of his more serious books.

        Lacking from this list are two of my favorite Heinlein books,
"Glory Road" and "Starship Troopers".  Plenty of action in both of
them, and I would definitely not put them in the juvenile class, nor
in the class with "Time Enough for Love" and "I Shall Fear No Evil".

        I would tend to place these books in a class of themselves.  
(I sat down and reread Troopers five times in a row last winter:  I
needed a Heinlein fix...)

        Another book for Heinlein fans is "Expanded Universe", which
is a collection of the Master's essays and stories.  Although I have
not read the book from cover to cover, the skimming I have done makes
me believe more firmly than ever that the man knows what he is talking
about.

        On a slightly different topic, I'm glad to see that my
mini-review on the Lensmen revival sparked so much mail.  I apologize
that I did indeed list the books out of order, and have received many
comments on that.  (I ALWAYS list them out of order...)

        The characters of Heinlein and Smith are very similar:  larger
than life heros that will not be defeated.  Likewise the villains are
the embodiment of evil.  My own writing (I haven't published yet, will
let you all know when and where the story will be) has been very much
influenced by these too.

        I haven't got around to digging up the answers to all the
questions in the Trek Trivia message I sent out a few weeks back, but
will do so shortly.  Thanks to all who sent messages back.

        Sorry for running on so much, but I find it hard to settle
back into reality on Monday's...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 1982 2126-EDT
From: Paul Czarnecki <PZ at MIT-OZ at MIT-AI>
Subject: Heinlein  (SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39)

I believe that the juvenile Heinlein books are excellent for their age 
group and can even stand alone as reasonable books to read for 
"non-juveniles."

"Rocket Ship Galeleo" and "Citizen of the Galaxy" were the first two
SF books that that I ever read.  Something must of clicked then, for I
have continued to be an avid SF reader ever since.

I recently re-read "Podkayne of Mars" and I have a spaceship design 
question.  She claims that the ship has 4 concentric layers of 
shielding, each capable of stopping 90% of the radiation hitting hit.
Each layer separates the deck form the one above it.  Therefore the 
safest place is in the center of the ship which is VERY crowded 
emergency storm shelter.

My first thought was, How silly, Simply put all four layers on the 
outside and make the whole ship equally safe.  Almost immediately I 
realized that there would be a weight problem.  But why not have one 
layer out at the original radius (call it 4r) and a triple layer at
2r.  This should still weigh the same (if I made a silly arithmetic
error, I pre-apologize).  Now punt the emergency shelter of radius 1
and instead put in a 3rd class of radius 2.  leave half of it empty.
1st and 2nd class passengers can stay in the middle while 3rd sits at
home during the storm.  Same weight and more comfort!  Would there be
other underlying reason why this would not be done?

                                        -pZ

------------------------------

Date: 17 August 1982 14:19 mst
From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard)
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Patricia A. McKillip

I have read the three Riddlemaster books and The Forgotten Beasts of 
Eld.  In my opinion, they rank up in the top 5 worst books I have ever
wasted my money on.  McKillip seems to care more about making up 
unpronounceable names than anything else.  And the Riddlemaster books 
plodded on so slowly, I don't think anything happened worth noting in 
the whole trilogy, at least nothing I cared about.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 1982  0:05:04 EDT (Monday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Ray Bradbury

From a column by Marilyn Beck in the Sunday, August 22, paper:

   Master science-fiction author Ray Bradbury is turning his talents
to opera -- a sci-fi opera he promises will be "sort of 'Moby Dick in
Outer Space.' "
   "I'm writing the entire libretto and I'm searching for a composer 
now," he reports.  He adds he created the story nearly a decade ago 
under the title of "Leviathan," that it was produced for the BBC, and
as a local, small-theater presentation, and that the latest plan calls
for the introduction of its musical adaptation by the Seattle Opera in
1984, "and then it's to be produced in Los Angeles during the Olympic
games."
   Bradbury is also working on plans to bring his classic "The Martian
Chronicles" and "The Illustrated Man" to the big screen.
   That latter work was the basis of a 1969 Warner Bros. movie, but,
he says, "It was pretty bad.  I don't think anyone at the studio knew
how to read -- they certainly hadn't read the book.  The script was
written behind my back, without my knowledge, and was terrible."
   Just as terrible, he feels, was NBC's six-hour 1980 interpretation
of "Chronicles" about what life might be like on Mars.  But, he says, 
"fortunately I retained ownership to both works."

 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 19 August 1982  03:24-PDT (Thursday)
From: Scott M. Hinnrichs  <SMH at SRI-KL>
Subject: PacMan jokes


        What if they live on the east coast?... must they PAC it up
and move to the PACific coast in order to use the PACific-TELefone?

        Everybody wants in on the PacMan craze... even the CARS...  
their new album...

"PAC It Up" ...available soon on LP's, cassettes, and ATARI
cartridges.

(<...

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 1982 2220-EDT
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: those "genderless" puns

My OED has pages and pages of words starting with the letters PAC and
with other spellings pronounced the same (pach, pak, etc.)  If you
also include words with an embedded "pac": we start running into the
hundreds and perhaps thousands.  The upshot of this is that the PAC
puns could go on virtually forever.  I for one plea for a cessation of
these unless they are some of those unspeakably clever ones that
really cause a major groan.
  thanks,
  Jim Hendler

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:16AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

The last message in this digest touches upon some plot details in the
movie Revenge of the Jedi.  Some readers may not wish to read on.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 1982 1903-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Preview of "The Revenge of the Jedi"

        In the current re-release of "Star Wars, Chapter 4, 'A New
Hope'", there is a three minute spoiler with scenes from "The Revenge
of the Jedi".  These are some comments that friends at DEC-MARLBORO
have forwarded to me.

-HWM

Date: 24 Aug 1982 2333-EDT
From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Preview of "The Revenge of the Jedi"


1.  Am not sure if that is Hans with the saber or not.  It occurred
        during the footage alloted to Luke, but did not look like
        Luke.  Looked more like Hans.  Will keep a sharp eye open next
        time.

2.  Did you notice anything different (from EMPIRE) about Obi Wan?  He
        is no longer an apparition, as he was there (desert scene and
        marsh scene).  Was Yoda's famous "No, there is another" meant
        to mean (as has been my contention for some time) "no, there
        is another [hope]" which means that the "answer" is not
        necessarily some specific "new" person, but simply another
        hope.  In other words, was he referring to his ability,
        possibly not known to Obi Wan, to revive Obi Wan from his new
        of my existence to reality, as it were.

3.  How did you like the Princess' new clothes?  Talk about shedding
        former images!  Sort of a cross between Jane (without Tarzan)
        and Barbarella.  Looks interesting.

4.  Wonder what Lando's role in all of this is?  Maybe the scenes of
        him in the Falcon were pre-rescue (of Hans), and he sort of
        drifts out of the action after Hans returns.

5.  Did you see the artwork for the scenes being shot in the desert
        outside of Yuma? (see June 82 Fantastic Films).  Interesting
        new vehicles and such.

That's about it.  What all did you catch in it?  Will let you know if 
I pick up anything more when I see it again before the run closes.

-reed

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line:  1-Sep  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #49
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #49
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #49
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Sep 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS,
                  SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL
Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS

Some of the following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was
submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX).  It was thought
to be of interest to the readership.  Since LOTS is not on the net,
responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people
should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 0852-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: 1-dim ratings


              One-dimensional ratings do not at all indicate
          one-dimensionality of the field. It shows only
          that the opinions expressed are one-dimensional.

              You can feel your heart while reading and come
          up with an assessment of the intensity of your
          response. That technique seems to reduce the
          problem to a simple magnitude without any preten-
          sion of capturing the full richness of the field
          in one little number.


Regards,
     Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 17 August 1982  05:42-EDT
From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC
Subject: Correction to LOTS comment

Anne McCaffrey's secondary Dragonrider series (A.K.A the Harper Hall 
series) runs Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, Dragondrums.

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1982 2030-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER at MIT-XX>
Subject: Correction to a correction on opinions from su-lots

A person called "csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX" made the following statement:

    DUNE does not pander to any mystic cult; it came out before
    almost all of the popular expressions of drugs (e.g. songs
    ranging from "Mr. Tambourine Man" to "Puff, the Magic Dragon" ...

Lets set the record straight:  "Puff, the Magic Dragon" was not
written as a drug song.  DUNE is copyright 1965; "Puff..." was written
around 1960.  So if DUNE predates popular drug usage, so does the
song.  And if you prefer a more straigtforward proof, Paul Stookey
stated in an interview that it wasn't written as a drug song.  So why
does it use drug terminology?  Most likely, the terminology was copied
from the song.  'Nuff said.

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 1982 1432-PDT
From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft)
Subject: Dune and Farmer

M.MELKAR wondered how Herbert could produce such a winner as Dune and
such losers as its sequels. Simple! It is fairly well known that
Herbert was getting a lot of advice from John W. Campbell during the
period when he was writing Dune. I believe that Campbell could almost
be listed as a second author of Dune. He probably injected an enormous
number of suggestions into its creation. Herbert has not admitted
this, but many critics believe it to be true nonetheless. Campbell was
also responsible for much of the idea behind the Foundation trilogy.
Asimov has been truthful enough to admit his debt to Campbell for this
help.  Campbell is probably partially responsible for numerous other
classics and was the main shaper of SF as we know it.

Back to Farmer again. One of my favorite quotes about Farmer's writing
is in an essay by Rottensteiner in one of the Science Fiction Studies
criticism collections:

        (In reference to TO YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO)
   "What little value the novel has lies wholly in the fact that it
    presents in an almost pure form the particular method of
    mass-market SF -- that is, playing around with a limited set of
    elements that are combined and recombined to infinity. A
    kaleidoscope of oddities that is simultaneously derivative,
    self-perpetuating and incestuous; a mixtum compositum of almost
    unlimited assimilative powers, ahistorical and devaluating;
    readily accepting what is intellectually bankrupt, and bankrupting
    what initially had some value, before it was drawn into the
    gigantic junk-yard of SF, where everything is but a pretext for
    another cops-and-robbers story -- regardless how the figures are
    called, and whether the background is the earth, some other
    planet, the galaxy, past present or future, some other dimension,
    or indeed the afterlife.

    What does this all suggest? Farmer presents hellish worlds, before
    birth and after it, into which a vague hope is introduced only as
    an additional torture. They depict various degrees of degradation
    of man, and reject the autonomy of human values and human beings.
    These stories proclaim the Fortean doctrine that man is only
    property, utterly at the mercy of beings with remarkable powers,
    "gods" or "ethicals," who appear to be childlike, prankish,
    sadistic dimwits, taking delight only in causing pain and
    suffering. Even death offers no escape from the torturers since it
    has lost its uniqueness and become a playful act that can be
    reversed or repeated at will.

    The author of such "gods" does in fiction what they are supposed
    to do in reality: he plays around with shocking situations and
    possibilities, without justifying them or giving them a larger
    meaning.  Sometimes these creations are, in their vividness of
    description, remarkable as fruits of grotesque imagination; but I
    think they are never of any importance as speculative thought, as
    intellectual effort."

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 1211-PDT
From: T.TIME at SU-LOTS
Subject: S.F. Authors

        One author that I didn't see on M.Melkars list of novels and authors 
was Andre Norton. I have only read one of her novels "Breed To Come" but I was
very impressed by it. It is an Earth in the futur type story after all humans
have left the planet and the animals have evolved. It's quite interesting.
                                                        T.Parker

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1135-PDT
From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS
Subject: Science Fiction Rating list

I think I'm not alone in appreciating A.AVERY's SF list even though
his tastes are different from mine, thanks Avery.  The following will
be my last SF list, from here on I'll stick to specific reviews and
kibbutzing other peoples lists.  I attach all the usual caveats to
this list: my tastes are jaded, etc.


Poul Anderson
    Trader to the Stars                B
    Mirekheim (sp?)                    B
James Blish
    A Case of Conscience               C+ [boring]
S. Delany [an overrated
        author in my opinion]
    Triton                             C+
Charles V. DeVet, Katherine MacLean 
    Second Game                        A+ 
H. Ellison
    I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream  A+ [short stories]
Frank Herbert
    Destination: Void                  C+
    The God Makers                     C
Aldous Huxley
    Brave New World                    A  [a classic]
Fritz Leiber [important author
        and a very nice man, too]
    -Leiber has written some excellent short stories-
    The Big Time                       B
Stanislaw Lem [people tend to overrate this author though he is good]
    Solaris                            A
Larry Niven [One of my favorites]
    The Mote in God's Eye              B
    A Gift from Earth                  B
    The Flight of the Horse            C  [Niven's biggest turkey]
    A World out of Time                B+
    Long ARM of Gil Hamlin             B
Andre Norton
    Galactic Derelict                  B
    Moon of Three Rings                C+
    Star Gate                          B+ [My favorite by Norton]
George Orwell
    1984                               A  [a classic]
Frederick Pohl
    Beyond the Blue Event Horizon      A  [Gateway sequel]
J.R.R. Tolkien [the first and last
        in self consistant fantasy]
    Silmarillion                       A- [Melkar rules!]
    Hobbitt                            A+
    Lord of the Rings                  A
    Farmer Giles of Ham                B+
    Smith of Wooton Major              A  [Avery is right on this one]
    The Adventures of Tom Bombadil     B  [never understood this one]
    Leaf by Niggle (sp?)               A  [Avery would love this]
Evgeni Zamiatin [the Russian Orwell,
        though not as good]
    We                                 A-


This concludes my final list.  I'd like to comment that too many times
people sight the major authors such as Niven, LeGuin, Farmer for
people to read without mentioning the less well known people who are
just as good but so recent that their reputations are not yet
established.  Stephen Goldin is an execellent author and he has one
claim to fame that to my knowledge no other SF author has:  all his
books are great (he's yet to write a turkey).  No doubt in time that
will change.  "Second Game" by DeVet is among my favortites but I seem
to be the fourth person who has read this novel, (classic case of the
starving genius).  Alexi Panshin is among the top five SF authors in
my opinion, and hardly anyone has read him except for "Rite of
Passage" which is an excellent book.  His best work however, is the
"Anthony Villiers series" which I intend to write a review on for
BBOARD as soon as I've completed the David Lindsay review.  Would
anyone be willing to proof read my Alexi Panshin review, (preferably
someone who has read the Villiers series)?  I would still like to see
other reviews, particularly by people with tastes different from Avery
and myself.

                                 G. Allen
------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1204-PDT
From: P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS
Subject: sf authors...

Why didn't you give Jerry Pournelle any credit for The Mote in God's
Eye, G. Allen?  And if Larry Niven is one of your favorites, then why
didn't you remember that Gil the ARM's last name is Hamilton?

                                 Just wondering, don't take me wrong.
                                         -pH

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 1982 1229-PDT
From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft)
Subject: Ellison's stories

There's only so much of Harlan that I can take, but some of it is
amazingly good, intense, vivid. For example, his story collection
DEATHBIRD STORIES is one of my all-time favorite books. It's sort of
an assemblage of his best work up until the time it was compiled.

SHATTERDAY, his most recent collection, is also good, but rather
different, more introspective, less frenetic.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 1982 1628-PDT
From: P.PARDNER at SU-LOTS
Subject: Wiz. of Zao??

Has anyone read a sf novel, "the Wizard of Zao".  That may not be the
correct title, and I CAN'T remember who wrote it.

If the name rings a bell, please let me know who authored it. It was a
VERY cute sf/fantasy-type about a little green wizard (like Yoda, with
a sense of humour) who has a knack for great jokes, screwing up
spells, and general mischief.

The reason I'm interested is that the author was supposedly making
this book the first in a series of N (5? 6?), with one book devoted to
each planet in his own little solar system.  I'm very interested in
finding out if any more have been forthcoming.

As I recall, the book was one of the most DELIGHTFUL I'd ever read --
full of humour, fantasy, and a cute surprise ending when we find out
who the wizard REALLY is.

-- can anyone help?

                -- pardner

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line:  1-Sep  Grath<SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #50
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #50
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM
From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #50
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          10-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:

  SF-LOVERS is back after a *long* delay.
  Beastmaster, evaluating authors, Revenge of the Jedi, E.E. Smith works, 
  Christine Chapel, Lem, HHGttG, superconductor, here's the plot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Note from moderator:

  Due to some unforseen problems, there has been a reshuffling of moderators.
  The moderator of SF-LOVERS is Stuart Cracraft (mclure@sri-unix). Jim
  Mcgrath, the former moderator, has retired. Since I have never handled
  digests before, expect some oddities in the first few digests. Feel
  free to send suggestions about the digest format. As always, submissions
  should be sent to SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL and requests should be sent to 
  SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@SRI-CSL. Note that it will be faster sending to the
  latter of these for requests rather than sending to my personal mailbox.

					Stuart

--------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1982 at 1628-CDT
From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 
Subject: Beastmaster provenience
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHAT'S/WHOSE "BEASTMASTER"? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Somewhere, recently, I ran across a reference to a couple writers 
doing a screenplay of Andre Norton's BEASTMASTER.  (I've checked here
in SF-L, in LOCUS, and in STARLOG, but haven't been able to find it
again.)

I thought, "Hey, that's great!"  BEASTMASTER is classic Norton, and as
I thought about it, seemed to be likely to be readily adaptable to
cinematic presentation.  I expected that if ever such a project really
got underway, there'd be mention of it by our knowledgeable SF-LOVERS
cinemaddicts.

Suddenly I see in the local paper an advertisement for a movie called
BEASTMASTER.  The picture in the ad looks Conanesque: a blond-ish,
well-thewed hero brandishing a sword, accompanied by a near-nekkid,
cringeing, barbarian-looking damsel.

BEASTMASTER?!?  Could \this/ be Norton's BEASTMASTER?  There is no
reference to Norton among the credits.  Her hero, Hosteen Storm, is
Amerindian, not a blond.  The book is SF, not sword-and-sorcery,
and the only female is an elderly Amerindian woman "walk-on" right
at the end.  In short, no mighty thews, no swords, no barbarians,
no damsels.

I called the theatre to get the name of the character, too small and
blurred to read in the ad, played by John Amos.  I was told it was
"Seth" (couldn't find and "Seth" in flipping thru the book) and that
his part was of the king's guardsman.  The book has neither kings nor
guardsmen.

What the book does have are 4 animal companions of the hero-- a large
feline, an eagle, and a pair of meerkats.  The picture in the ad
shows the hero accompanied by 4 animals in addition to the cringeing
damsel-- a large feline, an eagle, and a pair of what I can only
presume to be meerkats.

Can anybody explicate the book-movie relationship?  I've got a sick
feeling that it IS "from Norton", very, very f-a-r from, and that 
it's definitely NOT "Ya-tah-hay"!

--------------------

Date: 27 Aug 1982 1117-MDT
From: Henderson at UTAH-20 ( Tom Henderson)
Subject: Evaluating Authors
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI


Some major authors missing from the evaluation lists include:


** Olaf Stapledon 
   
        Last and First Men, Last Men in London ,etc.

** Rene Barjavel

        Ravage, Le Diable L'Emporte, Le Grand Secret, etc.
        (sorry, I have the French versions and don't know the English titles.)

** Herbert W. Franke

        Zarathustra kehrt zurueck, Ypsilon minus, etc. (ditto/German above)

** Zenna Henderson (no relation)

        The People, etc.

** Gore Vidal  (I've always wondered whether or not a writer is disqualified
                from being labeled a "science fiction" writer once the quality
                of the writing exceeds a certain level!)

        Myra Breckinridge, Messiahs, etc.


These are just some of the science fiction writers of major import missing from
the reports.  Also, I've seen it said in SFL that science fiction is in some
sense an *American* genre;  unfortunately, I believe that *pulp peurile SF* is
the American contribution.  Science fiction has been around quite a while in 
various forms: Americans have merely banalized it!


Tom Henderson (HENDERSON@UTAH-20)
 
--------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1982 1601-CDT
From: Greg Elder  <ELDER at GUNTER-ADAM>
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi
To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI

The October issue of Epic Illustrated shows a couple of production paintings
from RotJ.  The magazine also states that the movie is scheduled to be released
on Friday, 27 May 83.

--------------------

Date: 24 August 1982  21:48-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David Dyer-Bennet <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Subject: SF Lovers submission
To: young at market


( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #40 )

(Tim Shimeall <tim.uci@UDel-Relay>) Spacehounds of IPC has no apparent
connection to other works.  The tone is closer to Skylark than to the
Lensman universe, but there is no evidence of any connection.

The Family D'Alembert series is published by Pyramid as by E.E. "Doc"
Smith with Stephen Goldin.  I have only  4 volumes of it; my last,
Getaway World, carries a 1977 copyright date.  I have seen them in
stores much more recently than that, in fact within the last year.

--------------------

Date: 24 Aug 1982 2356-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
To: YOUNG at MARKET
Reply-to: DYER-BENNET at KL2137
DTN: 231-4076
Mailstop: MRO1-2/L14
Subject: SF Lovers submission
Message-ID: <"MS10(2066)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11850524677.46.253.7808 at KL2137>

More on Doc Smith's Family D'Alembert series:  Having checked my book
shelves in better light, I see that I have 6 in the series.  The first
4 are from Pyramid, as I reported earlier.  The fifth is from HBJ, and
the sixth is from Berkeley.  The copyright on the fifth is 1980.

The Best of E. E. "Doc" Smith (HBJ paper, 1979, copyright 1975) contains
a story called "The Imperial Stars", which is the first part of the book
Imperial Stars.  No publication history is given in either place (curse
Pyramid and HBJ), but one of the forwards of Best Of dates the piece in
1964.  ... Ah ha!  The bibliography in The Universes of E. E. Smith
(Ron Ellik and Bill Evans; Advent, 1968) credits that to Worlds of IF,
May 1964.

Then, of course, there is the Lord Tedric series, and Masters of Space....

--------------------

Date: 29 August 1982  22:10-EDT (Sunday)
Sender: LECIN at RU-GREEN
From: Mijjil (Matthew Jody Lecin) <LECIN at RUTGERS>
To:   Sf-Lovers at MIT-AI
cc:   Lecin at RUTGERS
Subject: Star Trek (random trivia point)

    But did  anyone  besides me  ever   wonder why  they  named  her
Christine Chapel?

The pun on Sistine Chapel has always amused me.

>Mijjil

--------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1982 1139-PDT
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER at USC-ECLC>
Subject: More Lem
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

Well, some people must think I have a one-track mind, but since some
others seem this way to me, I don't feel so bad. I have just finished
a recent Lem acquisition which has been out since the early seventies.
It is translated from German translated from Polish, but it seems to
have survived pretty well. The book is THE INVINCIBLE; it could be
classified in the genre of "realistic SF," which to some people is a
contradiction in terms. Anyway, the story concerns the cruiser
INVINCIBLE as it touches down on planet REGIS III to investigate the
disappearance of the cruiser CONDOR several years earlier. The CONDOR
is found is somewhat battered condition, and the crew members that are
found are dead. The crew of the INVINCIBLE is at a loss to explain how
this could have happened, and in the process of investigation, they
uncover mysterious clues about insect-like "flies." Strong magnetic
fields also seem to play an important part in the mystery, as does the
inexplicable circumstance of several people having part or all of
their memory erased.

I won't give away further details of the story for those who might be
interested in reading it; I thought it was very good, myself. Once
again, Lem has involved his interest in artificial intelligence in his
writing, which makes for a novel idea and interesting reading. Another
theme which gets introduced later in the book is the purpose and
morality (maybe there's a better word) of man's trying to colonize and
conquer things which may be beyond both his mental and physical reach.
This book is good reading for people who enjoy a mystery that is
solved slowly. It deals quite a bit with the thoughts of a few of the
characters, and it's quite possible some people might find it boring
for lack of action, since it has few intense battles or whatever some
people need to keep their interest.  It is quite like SOLARIS in that
it involves the psychology of men in space who almost seem to wage war
with the planet they land on, somehow knowing deep down that they
can't win. This is NOT a lighthearted book, and readers familiar with
Lem's playfulness in works such as the CYBERIAD and MORTAL ENGINES
will find none of that here. THE INVINCIBLE is similar in form to some
of Lem's TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT; thus, people who have found those
boring will probably find this equally entertaining. For people
interested in seeing a different side of Lem, THE INVINCIBLE is a good
place to look.

--------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1982 1541-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Vol III of HHGttG  
To:   sf-lovers at MIT-AI   

Copies of the British paperback edition of Douglas Adams' "Life, The
Universe, and Everything" (the third volume of the Hitchhiker's Guide
to the Galaxy), are available at the Green Apple bookstore on Clement
St. in San Francisco.  Be warned: the imported edition is $4.50!!!
But if you're desperate (I certainly did not feel *that* desperate)

--------------------

Date: 29 August 1982  18:17-PDT (Sunday)
From: GANESHA at OFFICE-1
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
Reply-to: GANESHA at OFFICE-1
Cc: GANESHA at OFFICE-1
Subject: References for superconducter

	What impressed me was the room-temperature superconducting "wire" they
	possessed.  This material has since become reality: last year in
	ELECTRONICS magazine a researcher at Wright-Patterson AFB announced
	that an experiment to produce ductile crystals resulted in a material
	exhibiting ALL properties expected of a superconductor AT ROOM
	TEMPERATURE....Can anybody provide more information on this subject?
					K.Karl at SU-LOTS

  The articles were in Electronics of October 9, 1980, page 41 and
September 22, 1981, page 12.  Vahldick won't discuss the nitty-gritty
details of the process until his patent is granted, which he expects
sometime this year.  He says the largest crystals he has made so far
are 12 to 14 millimeters in the superconducting direction and 2 to 4
mm in the other axes (the stuff is a crystal), but that the limiting
factor is his home [!] laboratory.  The process starts with titanium
bromide (TiB2).  If anyone is interested, I would be happy to
summarize further, but a different list would probably be more
appropriate.  (Any suggestions?)
					Ganesha


--------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1982 1625-EDT
From: LEWIN at CMU-20C
Subject: Here's the plot...(t.v.)
To: sfl at SRI-CSL

I'm trying to remember the name of an old t.v. science fiction series
from the '50s or possibly very early '60s. The hero was a Commander
Buzz (?) Correy, who has a faster-than-light spaceship which doubled
as a time machine. 

Among the adventures I remember were plots involving intelligent crystalline 
life-forms, visiting Salem (Mass.) during the witchcraft trials, and a visit
to contemporary (ie-1950s) America to halt a bomb test. Correy's companions
included the standard kid, girl, goofy sidekick and dithering scientist,
but the plots and science fiction ideas were generally superior.

--------------------

Date: 31 Aug 82 19:43-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject: Jedi update

a280  1928  31 Aug 82
AM-ENT--Jedi, Adv 09,570
$Adv 09
For Release AMs Thurs Sept 9
''Jedi'' A Box-Office Bonanza for 1983
By BOB THOMAS
Associated Press Writer
    HOLLYWOOD (AP) - With ''Star Wars'' earning more millions five years
after its original release, the nation's theater owners can look
forward to another bonanza next summer: ''The Revenge of the Jedi.''
    It's the third of George Lucas's space trilogy, part of a saga that
may expand to a total of nine films. ''Jedi'' has completed principal
photography: 12 weeks in huge stages at EMI Elstree studios near
London, two months of locations in the desert of Yuma, Ariz., and the
redwood forests near Crescent City, Calif.
    Now the film is in the hands of the wizards at the Lucas
subsidiaries, Industrial Light and Magic and Sprocket Systems, at San
Mateo in northern California. Howard Kasanjian gave a progress report
by telephone from production headquarters.
    ''We're in the post-production stage now, and the special effects
are a mammoth undertaking,'' reported the producer. ''Everything is on
schedule, but we'll probably finish two hours before the final prints
have to be shipped, as with 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes
Back.'''
    Like Lucas, Kasanjian is a graduate of the University of Southern
California film school. He joined the Directors Guild training program
in l965 and worked as assistant director for Francis Coppola, Sam
Peckinpah, Elia Kazan, Billy Wilder and Alfred Hitchcock.
    Kasanjian hooked up with Lucas to produce ''More American
Grafitti,'' was executive co-producer on ''Raiders of the Lost Ark''
and producer of ''The Revenge of the Jedi.''
    ''The new film is as big if not bigger than the first two,'' said
Kasanjian, 40. ''A lot of action, a lot of excitement. As the
conclusion of the trilogy, it answers a lot of questions: Is Vader
really Luke's father? Who gets the Princess? Does she live? Will the
robots stay together? Will they be melted down? Audiences will learn
more about the characters, where they came from, how they became what
they are.
    ''It's a super film - though I never want to get hyped up about any
picture. Even though I knew we had an excellent script with
'Raiders,' I didn't say anything about it. A week before it was
released, nobody knew what it was about.''
    ''The Revenge of the Jedi'' brings back the principals of the two
earlier films: Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, Alec
Guinness, Billy Dee Williams, Frank Oz, etc. The director is Richard
Marquand of Great Britain. Cost of the new film reflects its expanded
scope, as well the the inroads of inflation. Kasanjian cited these
figures:
    ''Star Wars'' - $10.5 million.
    ''The Empire Strikes Back'' - $25 million.
    ''The Revenge of the Jedi'' - $32.5 million.
    ''If we made 'Star Wars' today it would cost $22 million,''
Kasanjian remarked. Labor in Great Britain ''has risen 33 per cent
since 'Empire' three years ago. The cost of living allowance for
Americans has risen 49 per cent.''
    The producer remarked that Lucas has a story outline for the next
three films of the saga. The scripts may be written at the same time,
with the first two being filmed simultaneously - ''so we can release
one every two years instead of every three years,'' said Kasanjian,
adding cautiously: ''Whether we go ahead depends on the reaction to
'Jedi'.''
    Meanwhile the money machine grinds on. Lucas and Steven Spielberg
have a finished script for the ''Raiders'' sequel, tentatively called
''Indy 2,'' and filming is scheduled to begin next spring.

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct  <SFL at SRI-CSL>  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #51
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, October 11, 1982 10:07AM
From:  <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #51
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:

  The last issue was #50, not #42.
  Dr. Who in Boston, Oath of Fealty

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  7 Oct 1982 1849-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <SEILER@Mit-Xx>
Subject: Dr. Who lovers in Boston take note:
To: SF-Lovers at BRL

On Thursday, Oct. 21, channel 2 will start playing a new season of Dr. Who
episodes (the ones after Invasion of Time, where Leela departs).  The show
airs at 7pm daily.

--------------------

Date: 21-Sep-82 21:42:03-PDT (Tue)
From: UCBVAX.decvax!minow@Berkeley
Subject:  "Oath of Fealty"
To: ucbvax!sf-lovers@Berkeley

"Oath of Fealty" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle has just
been published in paperback (Pocket Books).  While I would have
liked just a bit better writing -- the book reminded me of
Arthur Hailey's "Hotel" -- the book raises a number of interesting
issues about the relationship between an individual and the
social environment.  The title refers to the feudal oath,
whereby the vassal promises to serve the nobility, while the
nobility promises to care for the vassal (see Tuchman's
"A Distant Mirror").

There were several ideas in the book that I found profoundly
disturbing -- the willingness with which people traded their
personal integrity and privacy for the security of an environment
without muggers was the most striking.  I recently translated
the Swedish Data Privacy Law and was amazed to see how many ways
the "nobility" of Niven's and Pournelle's book violated what the
Data Privacy Law calls "personal integrety."  I was also reminded
of Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" and hoped to read of some safety
valve such as Brunner's "Hearing Aid."

Another idea that seemed strange in such a "normal," mainstream
book was the way in which the leaders of the feudal community,
Todos Santos, ignored the laws and leaders of the surrounding
society when these got in the way of what they saw as their feudal
responsibilities.  (Which was the point of the book, by the way.)

One other minor point of annoyance -- here and there in the book
the authors drop brand names: "Bulova watch,"  "Dec computer."
Why?  And why didn't they go whole hog with, say, "Atlas-Copco
tunnelling machines."

Martin Minow
decvax!minow @ Berkeley

--------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1982 15:47 PDT
From: Hoffman at PARC-MAXC
Subject: So THAT'S what we are!
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

From "Other Networks" (as quoted in the current CoEvolution Quarterly):

"Around 1870, a group of hobbyists who all owned their own printing
presses, and who had been sending matter that they had written to each
other in the mail, decided that it would be simpler to all mail their
printing to one person, who would collate it, and mail to each
contributor a package containing one copy of each contribution.  Thus
was born the United Amateur Press Association (UAPA).  By the 1920s
this and other "apas" had evolved into forums for conversation.  H.P.
Lovecraft, the horror-fantasy writer belonged to an apa in the 20s.
When science fiction fandom began in the 1930s, fans who were members
of "mundane" apas spread the idea.  SF fans took to it so well that
South of the Moon, the index of apas within science fiction fandom,
now lists more than 70 apas."

--Rodney Hoffman

--------------------

Date: 22 Sep 1982 1730-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Star Trek: The old and the new
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
cc: Miller at SRI-NIC

	Last week, I happened to see the first Star Trek
pilot that William Shatner appeared in, "Where No Man Has
Gone Before".  There was an interesting throw-away line
you might appreciate.

	After Gary Mitchell has been mutated by the energy
barrier at the edge of the galaxy, he and Kirk are talking
in Sick Bay about the "old days" at Star Fleet Academy.
Mitchell says, "...If I hadn't aimed that little blond
lab technician at you..."

	Kirk flares back, "You planned that?  I almost
married her..."

	Could that certain lab technician have been named
Carol Marcus?

-HWM

--------------------

Date: 24 Sep 1982 1624-EDT
From: Margot Flowers <Flowers at YALE>
to:       SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
subject:  here's the plot ....
cc:       Black at YALE

...  can anyone tell me where it has appeared?  A friend would like
a pointer to this short story, which I read in a collection a few
years ago.

I'm pretty sure it was set at UCSD's Psychology Department and
concerned fictional experiments over what kind of world model and
behavior would develop in a chimp (or some other pimate) which grew
up from infancy in a world that followed different physical laws
-- specifically, one in which telekenesis was possible.  The chimp
was exposed to apparently telekenetic situations via magician props,
i.e. put a piece of fruit under a box and then lift the box and the
fruit is not there, having "moved" to somewhere else in the cage.
It turns out that the chimp, believing that telekenesis exists,
develops those skills herself (himself?)  and begins to remotely
manipulate objects in the lab.  The end as I remember was rather
dumb (but I won't repeat it here).

Thanks -- Margot Flowers                   Flowers@Yale

--------------------

Date: 27 Sep 1982 1522-EDT
From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
To: SFL at SRI-CSL
Mail-11-reply-address: "MENTOR::PERKINS"
Subject: NESFA Story Contest

		     Announcing the return of the

		NEW ENGLAND SCIENCE FICTION ASSOCIATION

		     SCIENCE FICTION STORY CONTEST

1.   The contest is open to all amateur writers.  An amateur is 
     defined as someone who has never  SOLD  a story to a professional 
     publication before 1 Septermber 1982.

2.   Stories must be less than 7,500 words long;  must be the original 
     work of the per  son submitting them; and must be either science 
     fiction or fantasy.

3.   An entry fee of $1.00 per manuscript will be charged to help 
     defray copying expenses.

4.   Stories must be typed in black, double spaced, on one side of 
     8 1/2 by 11 inch white bond paper, with 1 inch margins all around.  
     The title of the story must appear at the top of every page, 
     preferably centered on the first page and in the wuuper right hand 
     corner of subsequent pages.  The pages should be numbered.  //HIGH 
     QUALITY// copies, such as Xerox (TM) are acceptable.

5.   The author's name must NOT appear on the manuscript, but should 
     appear on a separate cover sheet along with the author's address and 
     the title of the story.  Manuscripts will be given an entry number on 
     receipt, and will be identified by this number alone until the final 
     judging is complete.

6.   Although all reasonable precautions will be taken to prevent loss 
     of manuscripts while in our hands, NESFA cannot be responsible for 
     such losses.  For your own protection, keep a copy of your manuscript. 
     (You need not submit the original.)

7.   Each manuscript should be accompanied by a Self Addressed Stamped 
     Envelope for its return.  Adequate postage must be provided.

8.   Entries must be postmarked by midnight, 1 December 1982.  Send them to:

			NESFA Story Contest
		Box G,  MIT Branch Post Office
			Cambridge, Massachusetts
			02139-0910

9.   The results of the contest will be announced at BOSKONE XX, the 
     science fiction convention to be held at Boston's Park Plaza Hotel on 
     18-20 February 1983.  The winner will be awarded a plaque, an 
     inscribed book, and a free Boskone membership (which may be a refund 
     of the membership fee.)  Two runners-up and several honorable mentions 
     may also be recongized.

10.  Returned manuscripts will be mailed in March, 1983.  We will keep 
     an archival copy of finalists' manuscripts, but all other copies will 
     be destroyed.  NESFA retains no rights to the stories;  all rights 
     remain with the authors of their assignees.

11.  Any entry that does not conform to the rules may be refused and 
     the manuscript and entry fee will be returned to the author in the 
     SASE provided.  In all cases the decisions of the judges will be final.

Reproduction of these rules is authorized and encouraged, provided tha 
wording is not changed.  (Librarians: please post now.)

--------------------

Date: 29 Sep 1982 2322-EDT
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-20C>
Subject: Violent futures
To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI

Perhaps someone can remember who first said this:

"The future will be just like the past, because in the past the future
was just like the past"
				joe

--------------------

Date: Sunday, 3 October 1982  15:04-PDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
Address: 3737 So. Hoover St. LA, Cal. 90089-0273
Phone: (213) 743-6861
Subject: Shields coming down sir!

Well, I speculate that at the time of M5, the "prefix code" was not
part of the Starship Design. I further speculate that the Prefix Code
was added sometime between that mishap in the series and the second
movie (just in time, I might add!)

Cheers,
--JSol

--------------------

Date: Sunday, 3 October 1982  16:16-PDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
To: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Cc: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
Subject: Chekov and the creepy crawly

    From: David H. Kaufman <SP.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
    Subject: Chekov and the creepy crawly

    Jsol, I have one question.  How was it that McCoy managed to know,
    without examining the patient or any such (outdated?) medical
    procedure, exactly the right tool to force out of Chekov's head a
    creature from a planet that McCoy hadn't been on for at least 20
    years, if ever?  I guess that's why he's a doctor and I'm not.

    Dave Kaufman

Well, I will speculate that the creature did not come out due to
anyone's prodding, but because the victim had become unconscious and
it was in search of more food (i.e. victims). I honestly think McCoy
was just using his canonical salt shaker on Checkov just to see what
the h**l the hole in his ear was for!!!

Fortunately for them (and us), Kirk had his trusty phaser set to kill
and used it right in the nick of time or McCoy might have been the
next victim! Oh well, thats yet another episode to be made into a
movie!

So shoot me! --JSol

--------------------

Date: 6 Oct 1982 0934-EDT
From: Alyson L. Abramowitz <ECG.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO>
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
Subject: Contributions From ENet SF-LOVERS

Posted-date: 11-Sep-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: Four from Planet 5
From:	STAN AT SCRIBE 

In reply to a recent inquiry, Four from Planet 5
was written by Murray Leinster.

------------------------------

Posted-date: 04-Oct-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: "Foundation's Edge"
From:	STEVE LIONEL AT STAR 

[Due to various problems, I'm about a month behind on SFL.  So, my
 apologies if this is dated material.  SBL]

I imagine that there must be two or three people on this planet who have
NOT read Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy.  On the wild chance that any
of those are reading this, you'll miss some of the references.  Sorry.

The time is F.E. 498 (or so), and Hari Seldon's crew on Terminus is doing
very well.  The latest Seldon Crisis involved whether they should move the
capitol of the Foundation off Terminus.  Shades of Alaska!  Anyway, some
bright fellow decides that the Seldon Plan is being followed TOO perfectly -
the Second Foundation must still be around guiding things.  Meanwhile,
at the Second Foundation, some bright fellow decides that the Seldon Plan
is being followed TOO perfectly - there must be some other group, (I think
of it as a "Third Foundation", though that term isn't used), guiding things.
Naturally, neither group likes to think that THEY aren't the leaders of the
galaxy, so trouble starts.

This is the setting for Asimov's long-awaited fourth book in the "Foundation"
series, and it is called "Foundation's Edge" ($14.95 in hardcover).  Simply
put, it is just as good, if not better, than the original stories.  I don't
like spoilers, even with warnings, and believe that further plot detail would
detract from your enjoyment of the book, so just go buy it and read it.

I do have a few comments in general about the book, however.  The first
couple of chapters have to be waded through, as the Good Doctor tries to
enlighten those who haven't read the previous books as to what the Foundation
is all about.  This is quickly done, however, and he moves into some good
action, so withold any judgements until you get further into the book.

I did notice that Asimov still seems to be unable to portray women in a
reasonable light.  At first, it looks like great improvements have been made;
Terminus has a woman Mayor and the Second Foundation has Speakers that are
women, but the Mayor is shown as an "old battle-axe", and the only female
Speaker we meet is a barracuda.  There are only two other women with prominent
roles in the story.  One is a farm-girl, sympathetically portrayed, but
shown as dull, not very pretty, and in need of a bath.  The other is very
attractive, but has lines like "Men have died for my body."  Oh, well.

"Foundation's Edge" ties together some other Asimov story-universes that
one would not think of as being "Foundation", but it is a loose coupling,
and not very important to the story as a whole.  The ending, though, is
of the form "The End (for now)", which implies a sequel.  Let's just hope
we don't have to wait 25 years for the next one!
					Steve Lionel
--------------------

Date:  6 Oct 1982 10:10:29 EST (Wednesday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Life, The Universe, and Everything
To: sf-lovers@sri-csl



Who sent out the information that LtUaE wasn't to be out until early 1983?
I just bought one at a modest bookstore in Norman, Oklahoma.

(Hardback, $9.95)

	Jeff


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Oct  SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 52
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 52
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:
	Star Trek, Tron, Fantasy movies, Jedi, Spielberg, etc.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982  13:00-PDT
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Address: 2817 Orchard Ave. Los Angeles, CA 90007
Phone: (213) 732-3423
Subject: su password on the Enterprise


It could be reasonable to assume that the SU password for YOUR ship
was online, since it would have to know whether or not you gave it
correctly, but there could be a simple algorithm (someone already said
this) and you would have to know this to get the results. In short,
Khan could have known the RELIANT's password but not the ENTERPRISE's
password. Spock, if he knew the algorithm, could have fed in the
proper data (including, for example, the ship's serial number and the
name of the Cap'ts first born male child), and come up with the right
answer, authorization or not. 

If I were Star Fleet I would not trust the passwords to other ships or
the algorithm for determining same to a computer and some
authorization restriction, considering Khan and his crew could have
patched in a NOOP instruction around the password check as easily as
one can do that in today's world.

--JSol

--------------------

Date: 05-Aug-1982
Subject: Star Trek II - Spoiler Warning and Bad Joke
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX
From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX 

This one deserves a spoiler warning.  It's also only humorous to DECnet 
network managers.

When Adm. Kirk needed to penetrate the Reliant's security and shut down
the shields, he obviously used the DECnet Phase XXVII network control 
program and said:

	$ MCR NCP
	NCP>TELL RELIANT LOWER SHIELDS
	NCP>...

--------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 (Monday) 2046-EDT
From: OSTER at Wharton-10 (David Oster)
Subject: bit in TRON
To:   sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

The bit in TRON was indeed tristable.  Its three states were:
Yes (presumably +,1)
No  (presumably -, 0)
and Floating.

By the way, the sequel to Stand on Zanzibar was "The Sheep Look Up".

--------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 21:45:28 EST (Monday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Fantasy Movies
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX

There have recently been a couple of Fantasy movies released that share
a common feature: They are in the same quality range as the SF of the fifties.
That is, the movies use a bad sample of the gendre, and are poorly made.

I am speaking of  (from personal experience) The Sword and the Sorcerer,
BeastMaster, and (via hearsay) Conan. The two of these that I saw I enjoyed
for the same reason I enjoy such things as It Conquered the World and Plan
Nine from Outer Space.

Could it be that when the movies pick up a new gendre that way, there is
a tendency for producers/etc.  to try and do it cheaply, hoping that the
draw will be to the fans of the gendre instead of movie fans? Does this
imply that we are going to have to put up with bad fantasy for roughly
25 years before somebody does it right?

Comments, anyone?

	mike

--------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1982 11:01:57-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Subject: re: Revenge of the Jedi

   At Chicon IV the people who presented a slide show and a special short film
on the development of some of the [monsters] in the new cantina band said
specifically that Obi-Wan does \\not// come back in the flesh, that they merely
haven't gotten around to doing the [ghost] effect yet. This is not implausible,
given that trailers being shown the February before the release of A NEW HOPE
were missing some cute features of the final cut (e.g. colored light-sabers)
but I wonder whether it's just another smokescreen.

--------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 11:44:21-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
To: dolata at sumex-aim
Subject: Spielberg
Cc: sf-lovers at sri-csl

   The best-known obscure Spielberg film is a non-fantasy (in fact, it's
based on an actual incident) called SUGARLAND EXPRESS. It dates from well
before CE3K and is about a woman (played by Goldie Hawn, of all people) who
snatches her husband from jail and hijacks a police car to prevent the state
from taking away her baby. I don't recall either this or RAIDERS being filmed
with particularly soft lighting, but my lighitng experience is entirely with
stage productions, where the effects of filters are quite different.
(According to the AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER, if you're looking for a really
softly-lit movie see ANNIE---the lighting supervisor was quote as saying that
there wasn't a single instrument without some sort of softening filter over it,
ranging from silk to vaseline.)

Date: 11 Sep 1982 21:07:22-EDT
From: cfh at CCA-UNIX (Christopher Herot)
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: re: Stephen Spielberg's early stuff


As far as I know, Spielberg's first feature length work was the
made-for-TV film "Duel".  It stared Dennis Weaver as a mild-mannered
motorist harassed by a homicidal (but unseen) truck driver.
It is available on LaserVision videodisk.  Not bad for TV.

--------------------

Date: 29 August 1982  22:10-EDT (Sunday)
Sender: LECIN at RU-GREEN
From: Mijjil (Matthew Jody Lecin) <LECIN at RUTGERS>
To:   Sf-Lovers at MIT-AI
cc:   Lecin at RUTGERS
Subject: Star Trek (random trivia point)

    But did  anyone  besides me  ever   wonder why  they  named  her
Christine Chapel?

The pun on Sistine Chapel has always amused me.

>Mijjil

--------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1982 0136-CDT
From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20
Subject: the Science Fiction Book Club
To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI
cc: cs.emerson at UTEXAS-20

I am considering joining the Science Fiction Book Club.
Does anyone know if it is a good deal. For instance, what books
have constituted their selections over the past few months?
Are they reliable? Etc.

--------------------

Date:  10 August 1982 12:07 edt
From:  Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS
Subject:  Copy of old Astounding cover wanted
To:  sf-lovers at MIT-AI

I would like to obtain a copy of the cover of Astounding SF which
illustrated a story called "...And a Star to Steer Her By," author
unknown, subject space travel in a rocketship called Fafnir. The cover
was, I believe, the first time AstoundIing had used photography (of a
model, natch.)  If any collector has this issue, and would be willing to
color xerox it, I would cover all copy/mailing expenses.  Replies to me
directly, this is really too trivial for the Digest.  I would also
appreciate author/issue/reprint data on the story.

Earl

--------------------

Date: 17 Aug 1982 1755-EDT
From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: [DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>: SFL submission]

More forwarded DEC SFL
- - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Date: 16 Aug 1982 1820-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
To: YOUNG at MARKET
cc: dyer-bennet.dean at KL2137
Reply-to: DYER-BENNET at KL2137
DTN: 231-4076
Mailstop: MRO1-2/L14
Subject: SFL submission
Message-ID: <"MS10(2066)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11848366356.38.253.34235 at KL2137>

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #34 )

(decvax!utzoo!henry at Berkeley) I finished Dragon Lensman, so I can
tell you that you aren't missing much if you haven't.  I also saw a
second book by David Kyle, Lensman from Rigel, in an "upcoming books"
list.  I hadn't known the original publication order of the Lensman
books, which I suppose shows I'm a lazy reader rather than an
energetic fan.  The Ellern story you mention has been published as a
novel (presumably expanded).  I found the divergence of technology to
be a great problem -- he suddenly introduced computers into the middle
of the Lensman universe!!  The lack of computer technology throughout
the Lensman series was one of its more humorous points for me, so its
appearance startled me.

I actually found Triplanetary and First Lensman to be among my
favorites in the series.  I'm not sure that knowing what they and the
forewards to the later books supply really spoils the story.  It gives
you a different perspective on it, certainly.

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #36 )

(A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)) You appear to have missed ALL of
Heinlein's awards, which include (from memory) Hugos for Double Star,
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land.

A Canticle for Leibowitz is by Walter M. Miller.

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #36 )

(A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)) I didn't see Niven & Pournelle's The
Mote in God's Eye on your ratings list.  Since I agree with you about
the importance of A Martian Oddyssey (and agree with your reasons),
and about The Gods Themselves in this context, you may care to know
that I think the aliens in Mote are the best I've found anywhere.

I still like Heinlein's children's books.  I'm at least somewhat
familiar with the children's books you list.  I like Narnia, and the
McKillip books, and of course Earthsea.  Heinlein's "juveniles" are
such a large part of his output, especially of his early output, that
ignoring them in evaluating Heinlein is a mistake.  I wondered where
you got the idea that his fiction is all sex-oriented.  It is possible
to get that impression from things since Stranger, but the stuff
before that has very little sex in it (REALLY very little, like
usually none).

LeGuin, on the other hand, I don't like too well at all, with the
aforementioned exception of the Earthsea trilogy.  The Left Hand of
Darkness was dull.  It had what I consider to be the worst possible
single character flaw:  the protagonist seemed stupid.  It's hard to
be sympathetic towards someone that you think is creating his own
problems as he goes.  I was surprised that that book won awards -- I
mean, it had not occurred to me that it could possibly have any chance
of winning.  I enjoyed The Dispossessed, but it has not drawn me back
for re-reading.  I re-read it anyway, since I thought I had liked it
and normally I'm a heave re-reader, and found that on reevaluation it
was a shallow and dishonest book, failing to actually come to grips at
all with the problems it claims to address.

I'm not sure I have the energy to carry out this discussion with
thousands of people helping us, or the energy to re-read yet again
these books I didn't like so that I can discuss them from more recent
memory.  We'll see how it goes....

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39 )

(Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>) I second the recommendation of The Subspace
Explorers.  For those rounding out the collection, the other completed
real works I know about are Spacehounds of IPC and The Galaxy Primes.
I enjoy them all, with perhaps a slight preference for Subspace
Explorers and The Galaxy Primes.  Also, it is a very interesting
exercise to compare them with the usual definition of Space Opera, of
which Doc Smith is usually cited as the most standard example.

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #39 )

(P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS) "Does anyone else out there love E.E."Doc"
Smith?"  Guilty.  (Not that I feel guilty about it).  This should be
apparent from various remarks above and in previous digests.
   --------
- - - - - - - End forwarded message
   --------
Date: 18 Aug 1982 1323-EDT
From: ECG.RICH.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Reply-to: ECG.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: CONTRIBUTIONS FROM ENET SF-LOVERS
Message-ID: <"MS10(2055)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11848836640.51.332.3290 at DEC-MARLBORO>

Posted-date: 14-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: Blade Runner Anachronism (non-spoiler)
From:	PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO 

I think that Deckerd having a smallpox vaccination scar is a true anachronism,
if he's supposed to have been born in the late 1980's.  Sporadic individual
cases of smallpox are still reported from the last few endemic pockets in
Ethiopia and Somalia, but the disease has been eradicated in the rest of the
world.  The NIH and AMA now recommend that people NOT be vaccinated unless
they are travelling to one of the endemic areas.  At the present time, the
death rate from vaccination complications far exceeds the risk of contracting
smallpox.  The smallpox vaccination is already a thing of the past.

--Paul W.

------------------------------

Posted-date: 16-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: PAC MAN and TRON
From:	PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX 

Did anyone else catch the image of PAC-MAN in TRON on a screen to which 
SARK pointed?  


------------------------------

Posted-date: 27-Jul-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: TRON (minor spoiler) & a comment on Reviewers
From:	DJLONG AT MERLIN

Realising that TRON has already gotten a plethora of reviews, I would like 
to add mine AND review the reviewers.

	Personally, I thought TRON was the most innovative movie of the 
century(short of the Jazz Singer, the first full talkie).  SW, TESB & ST
showed what computers could do if you let them help with the expensive
process of sfx.  As everyone must, by now, know, TRON takes that to it's
next logical step.

	TRON came across to me as what 'Revenge of the Jedi' is going to 
be.  Basically, a couple of swashbucklers go to defeat the opressor of the 
opressed.  However, I liked the twists given here.  There is a touch of 
religious tastes here that make you think a bit upon leaving the theater.

	Although TRON may be a bit weak in it's plot in some places, I 
thought that it was pretty well done considering the circumstances.

For example:

1) TRON's (our hero's) comment when he finds out that Flynn (our hacker) is a
User, the Gods of the Programs. "Well, then everything you do is according
to a plan!". I think we humans are accustomed to the same thoughts on our
diety.

2) When Sark (our enforcer) learns that Flynn is a user, keeping in mind that
it is the belief in the Users that he (Sark) and MCP (our evil emperor) are
trying to wipe out.  "Well....  I mean....  Users..... wrote us..."

3) When RAM (the local expendable renegade) is 'de-rezzing'.
	"Oh my User...  Users users......"

4) Considering the circumstances (i.e. if YOU were zapped into a computer's 
world), I think that the reactions by all parties (programs & users alike)
were viable.  Flynn: "On the other side of the screen, it all looks so easy."

That left me thinking for a while.  What if........?

The film has other areas where some thought was actually used for a change. 
I have never seen a hacker better portrayed than the way Jeff Bridges did 
Flynn.  All of the real hot-shots I know act in that cocky, self-assured 
manner.

The bottom line is - Anyone who has an open mind should be prepared to have 
their socks knocked off.

That brings me to the second part of this review.  The Reviewers.

I know of very few reviewers that maintain an open mind.  When something 
new comes out, they call it 'chaotic and disjointed'.  If it's not new, 
they call it 'the same tired old story that started with ______'.  Nothing 
seems to please them nowadays.  Most notable of the Reviewers is Freedman.  
From the submissions to the SFL I can only gather that his like are geared 
towards the conservative and unchallenging.  Sometimes I and many others 
get the feeling that the Reviewers are really unaware of whats going on.  
They seem to be sitting in the proverbial ivory tower, ignorant to 
societies that are constantly changing.  Even more infuriating is that in 
many cases, the plot details that are given are WRONG.  That fact is not 
isolated to just the Reviewers, but many of the independants have been 
guilty of it (I must admit that the Reviewers do it more often and the 
mistakes are frequently big ones).  ST:TWoK was reviewed by one of our
'pros' as having 'an ultra-galactic bomb that could wipe out the universe'.
While that is true, I would like to see the other side of the Genesis
device put there.  What about it's life-creating possibilities??? 
Sometimes, I would like to see these guys plucked out of their towers and
placed somewhere in the real world and let them see how some people
live and what peoples views on entertainment are.  Yes, we have a lot of
nit-pickers and it's good to see that many people keep their brains engaged
when talking about 'bloopers', but there are limits.  I would like to see 
the Reviewers go into a theatre without pre-conceived notions of what films 
are supposed to be.  I don't know why but SF movies are especially prone to 
bad reviews.  It seems to me that the Reviewers have made a deal with 
Senator William Proxmire ("... the space program is the biggest waste of 
money in the government").  How do you get to these people?

		GO SEE THE MOVIE ANYWAY!!

I usually value the reviews in SFL more than the 'wire-service' reviews.
Does anyone else out there feel this way?

Thanx for the forum,
David J. P. Long
(MERLIN::DJLONG, DJLONG @ MERLIN)


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 53
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 53
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:
    Finding hard to get SF, ET, Bladerunner, Jedi, Tron, Haldeman's
    WORLDS, Niven & Barnes' DREAM PARK, Farmer's A BARNSTORMER IN OZ
    Hogan's VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 1982 2318-EDT
From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
DTN: 231-4261
Mail-Stop: MRO2-4/D3
Subject: Finding Hard to Get SF Volumes

There have been a few requests of late for information on those
hard to find SF oldies.  An excellant source is ZIESING BROTHERS,
located in Willimantic CT.  Their complete address is:

Ziesing Brothers
768 Main Street
Willimantic, CT  06226
c/o Mark
(203)423-5836

The proprietor (Mark) publishes a quarterly listing of their
volumes, which include hardbacks, softbacks, paperbacks,
first printings, signed volumes, collector's editions, etc.
  A large selection of British printings (including EE DOC Smith)
is also stocked.  The quickest route to finding a specific volume
is to call mark and ask him to hunt it down for you. 

-reed

------------------------------

Date:     20 Aug 82 11:22:24-EDT (Fri)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  On Obtaining Hard-to-Find Books of the European Variety
Via:  UPenn; 20 Aug 82 21:47-EDT

     Though many of the U.S. and Canadian mail-order and walk-in sf
bookstores do carry some amount of material by European writers (esp.
British), the brunt of such books are American editions, usually
issued several years after the original publication.  This can prove
frustrating, especially in the case of series books (e.g., Moorcock's
Jerry Cornelius tetralogy, the last book of which didn't get released
here for five years after its British printing, and when it did get
out, it was only available in an omnibus edition with the other three
in one binding -- a waste of money if you already had 'em).
     I've developed a system which, though it does take a bit of my
time, gets around these problems [some of which are due, of course, to
problems with international copyright laws, while others can be blamed
on lazy agents].  The first step is to determine what authors one is
interested in.  This list might well include Americans, as some books
that are out of print here are still in European publication
(sometimes in English, sometimes not...).
     Next, I head for the nearest major library's Reference room, and
get out the most recent edition of British Books in Print and its
monthly update magazine.  I look up each author and, when I find a
title that I'm interested in, I note the crucial facts: publisher,
publication date, hard/paper back, and, most important of all, the
ISBN.
     Now, there are other sources of listings for books in foreign
languages, but since I'm insufficiently competent to read 'em, I
ignore them.  Those who are fluent, though, might find that
translations of their favorite authors take on a new meaning.
     Once I've got all this information, I send off an order to
England's best all-around bookstore, B. H. Blackwell's in Oxford.
[Yes, there are some good all-sf stores in the U.K., but Blackwell's
has several advantages . . .]  I've had an account with them for about
ten years, which allows me to pay for books in US currency at their
New York bank; they bill about every three months, with no interest,
or one can pay each shipping invoice as it comes.  If one doesn't have
an account, they will accept Mastercard or Visa.  If you have an
address at an academic institution, as I do, you're also eligible to
use their private airfreight service -- they fly the books to the US,
and then mail them book rate.  If not, they will ship by boat or air,
as you request.  Unlike a lot of small shops, they impose no fee on
any special orders; if they don't have a book, they will attempt to
get it ASAP.
     By the way, with the pound currently worth less than two bucks,
this is an excellent time to be buying books from Britain.  Another
advantage is that the British publishers generally do better work than
their American counterparts: cover art is often better, and bindings
last longer.
     Once you've become a regular customer at Blackwell's, you can
open your own account.  This allows you to regularly receive any or
all of the fifty or so catalogues they issue during the course of a
year, covering such topics as Fiction, Science & Mathematics, Art,
Music, &c.  They're an incredibly massive operation (five different
stores along an Oxford block: Children's ; Paperback; Music; Arts; and
main [which includes what Guinness describes as the largest single
book sales room -- over three miles of bookshelves), and can get stuff
from almost anywhere with no hassle.
     Their address is simply Blackwells, Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BQ, England.

------------------------------

From:	LDPVAX::GOLD::HENRY          17-AUG-1982 08:09  
To:	LDP::KIRK::SF_LOVERS

     I just saw ET for the first time. I think the movie was
great. Any flaws I saw at the time were far outwieghed by
the way the movie was put together. In past issues of the digest,
comments were made about ET's attraction to Elliot's mother.
ET is able to communicate thru the use of emotions and feelings.
ET is feeling the same affection for Elliot's mother as Elliot
does. Others comments I have read deal with the way in which the
medical team handled ET's "heart attack". They acted as any other
medical team would have acted in the same situation, they did what
they have been trained to do. The same can be said for the rest of
the Establishment in the movie, right or wrong, they carried out
their duties. 
     Just prior to seeing ET, I heard someone talking about how
companies pay to have their products featured in movies. I understand
that Reeces (sp?) Pieces are very difficult to get because of the
great demand since ET was released. I am sure Ma Bell felt having their
long distance commercial featured wouldn't hurt and who could forget
ET and Coors. I'm sure Elliot won't.
    I have a question I hope someone can answer. In the first Star
Wars movie, there was a difference in the introduction between the
first time I saw it and the fifth time, other than changing the
Star Wars title, was there another change?

     Bill
 
------------------------------

Posted-date: 23-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS KIRK*
Subject: The Revenge of the Jedi
From:	AL LEHOTSKY AT METOO

I went to see Star Wars over the weekend again.  They are now showing
previews for ROTJ.  It looks like we've got something to really look
forward to.  Since the whole preview lasts about 30 seconds, it's tough
to give any detailed impressions, but as a minor piece of "intelligence",
Han Solo recovers from the carbon freezing chamber.  As rumored, there are
desert-planet scenes (I don't think that it's Tatooine..) and some beings
that are reminiscent of Jawas (but definitely NOT the same culture) as the
sand-crawler crowd.

Finally, the claim was "coming next summer to a theater in a galaxy near
you".  Does this mean that the release date won't be 5-21-83?

------------------------------

Subject: Blade Runner Anachronism (non-spoiler)
From:	PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO 

I think that Deckerd having a smallpox vaccination scar is a true anachronism,
if he's supposed to have been born in the late 1980's.  Sporadic individual
cases of smallpox are still reported from the last few endemic pockets in
Ethiopia and Somalia, but the disease has been eradicated in the rest of the
world.  The NIH and AMA now recommend that people NOT be vaccinated unless
they are travelling to one of the endemic areas.  At the present time, the
death rate from vaccination complications far exceeds the risk of contracting
smallpox.  The smallpox vaccination is already a thing of the past.

--Paul W.

------------------------------

Posted-date: 16-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: PAC MAN and TRON
From:	PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX AT PBSVAX at KRYPTN

Did anyone else catch the image of PAC-MAN in TRON on a screen to which 
SARK pointed?  

------------------------------

*** SPOILER, the following review of Joe Haldeman's WORLDS reveals     ***
*** information you may not want to know if you plan to read the book. ***

Posted-date: 22-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: "Worlds"
From:	STEVE LIONEL AT STAR

It's the year 2084, and sections of the United States have  seceded  and
formed  their  own  countries.  One example is Nevada, where anything is
legal.  Enter our heroine, young,  pretty  and  intelligent.   She  gets
mixed  up  in  with  some revolutionaries, gets kidnapped and raped, and
tries to get home while the whole world  is  battling  things  out  with
nuclear weapons.

"Oh," you say, "that's Heinlein's newest book Friday." Well,  it's  not.
Instead  what  we  have here is Joe (Forever War, Mindbridge) Haldeman's
newest book "Worlds" ($2.50, Timescape paperback).  I  first  picked  up
Worlds  last  spring just after reading Friday, and it literally BEGS to
be compared to RAH's latest.  Luckily for "Worlds", it wins.  But  don't
mlet  my  introduction make you think that the books are look-alikes, for
they aren't.  It's just that some of the plot elements are very similar.

Ok, lets start over.  "Worlds"  is  the  story  of  Marianne  O'Hara,  a
resident  of  New  New  York,  one  of many "Worlds" orbiting a decaying
Earth.  New New, as it's known to its residents, is the largest  of  the
Worlds,  and  is  chiefly  known  for  its  exporting  of  foamsteel and
importing of tourists.  Some, such as Bellcom and Skyfac (!) were,  like
New  New, built by corporations looking to make a buck.  Others are true
colonies and some are even religious retreats.

Marianne,  because  of  her  scholastic  excellence,   wins   the   rare
opportunity  to  continue her education on Earth.  She goes to (Old) New
York, and makes friends with a poet named  Benny.   Marianne  and  Benny
soon  get recruited into an organization of revolutionaries who are much
more sinister than they let on to the pair.  To Marianne, it's  somewhat
of  a  "project";   she's  willing  to do harmless investigation for the
group but not get involved in anything serious.  Benny,  though,  learns
what the group is really up to and gets in trouble for it.

While this is  going  on,  New  New  has  just  discovered  carbonaceous
compounds  on  the  Moon.   Until now, the Worlds have been dependent on
Earth to supply organic matter;  in return, Earth buys  satellite-beamed
power  and  minerals.   If the Worlds no longer needed Earth to survive,
then Earth could no longer be  guaranteed  of  the  power  it  needs  to
survive.   (Sounds reminiscent of the conflict between Earth and Luna in
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".) Anyway, the Earth governments decide to
raise  the  price  of  deuterium,  which powers New New's ships, without
letting New New raise the price of its  exports.   In  return,  New  New
shuts off its power satellite.  Things start getting messy.

Meanwhile, Marianne gets kidnapped,  apparently  just  because  she  has
become  the  most  prominent  Worlds citizen on Earth.  (Just why she is
prominent is a fascinating detail.) Yes, she does indeed  get  raped  by
her  captors,  but  she  doesn't "enjoy" it as much as Friday seemed to.
Will she be able to get back to New New before Earth blows itself up  in
aggravation?  What about the lovers she has on Earth?  It's a "can't put
it down" type of story.  I loved it.

The best news is that "Worlds" is labelled  as  "Beginning  a  Major  SF
Trilogy".   Now  I  recall someone saying in these pages (?) that such a
phrase was to doom a story to failure, but not in this case (and not  in
the  case  of  John  Sladek's "Roderick", which I mentioned last April.)
"Worlds" is  superbly  crafted,  equal  to  or  better  than  Haldeman's
previous  works, and I eagerly anticipate reading future volumes in this
series.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

*** SPOILER, the following review of Farmer's A BARNSTORMER IN OZ reveals ***
*** information you may not want to know if you plan to read the book.    ***

Posted-date: 22-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: "A Barnstormer in Oz"
From:	STEVE LIONEL AT STAR

Philip Jose Farmer seems to spend a lot  of  his  time  writing  stories
around characters that someone else created.  This is not to say that he
isn't creative, since he adds quite a bit  of  his  own  talent  in  the
bargain.   With  "A Barnstormer in Oz" ($5.95, Berkely trade paperback),
Farmer brings us the story of Hank Stover, a barnstorming pilot  in  the
year  1923.   Hank's  mother  is  the Dorothy of the L.  Frank Baum "Oz"
tales, although Baum mangled Dorothy's true adventures into a successful
children's  book.   Hank, therefore, is not really too surprised when he
files into an emerald-colored cloud, (accidentally produced by a  Signal
Corps experiment in power transmission), and lands in Quadlingland, Oz.

Hank quickly joins forces with Queen Glinda to help  her  in  her  fight
against  the  evil witch Erakna, who took over as Queen of the Gillikins
when Helwedo, the Witch of the North, died suddenly.   As  Farmer  tells
it,  Oz is not really as peaceful as Baum would have us believe.  Except
for "The Wizard of Oz", Dorothy's adventure, the  remainder  of  the  Oz
books  were  almost entirely fiction.  Even "Wizard" glossed over things
and did not tell the truth about all that occurred.

Soon, though, trouble on another front emerges.  The U.S.  Army tries to
invade  Quadlingland through the gate they have created.  Glinda quickly
subdues the first force, but she fears, and rightly so,  that  the  Army
will  keep trying until they kill off everyone in Oz.  Hank is thus torn
between his loyalty as an American and his love for Glinda.

Using his Curtiss JN-4H (Jenny) biplane, Hank rounds  up  the  Scarecrow
and  the  Tin  Woodman,  bith  Kings  of  their  respective territories.
Together, the plan the attack  against  Erakna.   Along  the  way,  Hank
reasons  out  some  of the fallacies that Baum put in his books, such as
the fact that the Tin  Woodman  couldn't  have  rusted  so  fast  simply
because  tin  doesn't  rust  like that!  There's lots more which I would
probably enjoy even better if I had ever read any of the Oz books.

Farmer's Oz, unlike Baum's, has sex, birth, death and crime.  Having  Oz
seem more realistic adds to the enjoyment of the tale.  Magic, though it
indeed exists, is not omnipotent.  Therefore, Hank  really  can  make  a
difference in the outcome.

I enjoyed "Barnstormer" a great deal, and will now probably go  out  and
start  buying  Baum's books.  I feel pretty sure that any Oz fan will be
delighted by "Barnstormer", and that neophytes who, like me,  have  only
seen the movie, will be equally enthralled.  I highly recommend it.
                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

*** SPOILER, the following review of Hogan's VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR       ***
*** reveals information you may not want to know before reading the book. ***

Posted-date: 25-Aug-1982
To:	SF-LOVERS @KIRK
Subject: James P. Hogan/VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR
From:	SCHOFIELD AT MERLIN 

	I just finished reading VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR (the first
Hogan book I've ever read). I found it to be one of the most
interesting and enjoyable books I've read in awhile. Hogan manages to
integrate a basically hard-sf style with a sharp eye (and pen) for the
foolishness of the human condition.
	The book centers around the first inter-stellar colony from
Earth set in (you guessed it!) the Alpha Centauri system. Circa 2020,
a ship left Earth bound for Centauri. It originally had been planned
as a robot probe but when the people in charge of the project saw how
things were going on Earth they though it would be a good idea (and it
was) to equip the ship to handle people. Of course, since the ship was
already designed and in the initial production stages, the only way to
do this was...(any guesses?)  ...RIGHT!!! Encode some 'puters with
genetic info and sythesize the children when the ship arrived! The
children were raised with robot nannies programmed to teach the
children only facts and to allow them to devise their own
thought-patterns, society, economy etc. Free from all the ingrained
prejudices and thought-patterns from Old Earth, they developed a
society which was so radically different and so incredibly good that
it shakes one's faith in the idiocy of human nature.
	However, just when you thought that we humans are good for
something after all, enter the second generation emmigrants from
Earth.  World War III has taken place on Earth, and out of the ashes
rose the United States of the New Order, along with European and
Asiatic power blocs. The U.S. has sent out a generation ship to
reassert it's lawful and God-given sovereignty over the wayward
heathens of Chiron (the new name of the planet).Paraphrase:"After all,
they are human, the Bishop SAYS they have souls, but what kind of
people can they be after being raised by robots?" Answer:
"INTELLIGENT!!!!"
	What follows is a refreshing insight into the mores and taboos
of society as well as the evolution of society in coming to terms with
high technology. The story is made all the more interesting because it
comes from an unexpected quarter...the "hard-sf" writer.
	If this story is indicative of Hogan's style, if so would
someone please inform me through the list, I am very anxious to read
more from him.

				Rick Schofield

------------------------------

*** SPOILER, the following review of Niven & Barne DREAM PARK reveals ***
*** information you may not want to know before reading the book.     ***

Date:      14 Aug 82 9:13:33-PST (Sat)
From:      Tim Shimeall <tim.uci@UDel-Relay>
To:        sfl at Sri-Csl
Subject:   DREAM PARK (Spoiler)
Via:  UCI; 14 Aug 82 19:26-EDT

Kindly allow me to take issue with some of the opinions expressed on the
book 'DREAM PARK', by Larry Niven and Steven Barnes.

I agree, very much with the gentleman who noted that you can tell who
is going to be killed by the deapth of description of the characters,
except for those who are killed in the final scene.

		HOWEVER

I think this is one of the best DND/Quest books to come out in a LONG
time.  Its FAR better than Norton's book on Blackhawk.  I Definately
recommend that those interested in SF/DND go out and buy/borrow/read a
copy.

The ending is not a terrible suprise.  Given the DND/Quest theme, the
authors have a reason for each character that they present.  Each
character serves a role in leading to the ending.  Up until the final
pages, where all is made clear, the role of Skip, the psychologist, is
uncertain.  He does NOT contribute anything, until his role as the
ultimate villan is exposed.  This sticks out like a sore thumb on a
reread of the book.  Also, I felt that the ending was fairly well
foreshadowed.

By the way, did anyone notice how subtley Niven and Barnes worked in
references to other works of fiction into this book?  (Does any get a
clue from this knife?  Well, Its obsidian.  What good is a glass
dagger? ) I counted 28 references, but I'm sure a missed a LOT of
them.

					Tim Shimeall
					Tim.UCI at UDEL-RELAY


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 54
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 54
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:
    Destination Moon, violence, Castenada, Cordwainer Bird, Herbert's
    THE WHITE PLAGUE, Brunner's STAND ON ZANZIBAR, shielding in PODKAYNE,
    British education, Lem, COURTSHIP RITE, A PERFECT VACUUM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 20:30:53 EST (Monday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Destination Moon
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX

Destination Moon ran on the babble box here about a week ago, and (after the
discussion on sfl) I made sure to catch it. The credits at the begining of the
file listed Heinlein as the sciencetific advisor.

However, one of the key characters (The ex-military man who was the driving
force behind the moon rocket) looked like some of the pictures of Heinlein
from that period. The joes who ran the film didn't bother running the trailing
credits, which carried the actors names. Does somebody know if that was him?

	mike

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 21:03:05 EST (Monday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Violence In Our Time
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX

On the subject of why movies/sf/video games/etc are so violent, there
seem to me to be two (nearly mutually contradictory) explanations:

1: These things are all escapism/entertainment (ESCAPE to something by
Ellison?)  and as such feature things that people find
exciting/entertaining. This implies action, and lots of it; most of
this is translated to Violence.

2: People are basically violent.

The first of these is the one that most people would like to believe is
true. I am fairly certain that this is what applies in my case: I tend to
read sf that is either action/adventure (Hard sf, and most of the things
run by Analog), or go looking for things that make me think (Ellison and
some of the rest of the `new wave'). Anything that is neither of these
two (We Who Are About To... & The Lathe of Heaven are good examples: both
of them were slow and had obvious solutions) I tend to avoid.

So we have one example where the first case applies. As a good counterexample
consider the success of Ordinary People.  Very little action, and problems
that you can run into in real life without suddenly qualifying as a @B(HERO).
If everybody who went to movies were escaping, I don't think that movie would
have done well at all.

This leaves us with people being basically violent. In support
of this we have the rising crime rate. We can also note that the good old
U. S. of A. has been engaged in armed conflict of some sort or another for
something like 200 years during its 206 year history.   As counterpoints we
have vegetarianism. There also seems to be a growing number of people in my
circle of friends who find the thought of consciously doing harm to another
person/being sickening. These people are still in the minority, but the
number is growing.

Conclusions? It seems that both reasons apply. There are people who are
there to avoid something obnoxious in the real world (like the real world),
and people who enjoy violence  for the sake of violence. Hopefully, the
second class is in the minority and shrinking, but the evidence doesn't
point that way.

Video games are another matter entirely. I've never met anybody who played
them (as opposed to dropping a quarter now and then for social reasons)
who thought of them as anything but a GAME. By definition, a game involves
competition. In this case, the competition is you vs. the computer, and
these things come across better if there is some object/objects on the screen
that you can be seen to competing against, or fighting.

There are non-violent video games. Check out Actavision's Barnstorming. In
this you are trying to fly a biplane through some set number of barns in
as little time as  possible. The `violence' in this game happens when you
hit something (a windmill, a barn or a goose), and the plane bounces a little
and slows down. These things are manifestly to be avoided, so Barnstorming
actually encourages non-violence!

Sorry 'bout the long non-sf discussion.

	`And if you hear me sobbing once in a while, it's only because
	you've killed me, too...'

	mike

------------------------------

Date:     13 Sep 82 16:11:45-EDT (Mon)
From:     J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
cc:       jcp.jhu at UDel-Relay
Subject:  Castenada, Cordwainer Bird
Via:  jhu; 14 Sep 82 3:52-EDT


A couple of issues back there was a flame on Carlos Castenada (sp?),
accusing him of being a fantastical fraud.  Those interested should
see two books edited by Richard deMille, "Castenada's Journey" and
"The Don Juan Papers", in which the editor and company do their best
to prove Castenada a fraud. I have only recently read some of the
don Juan books myself, and having a degree in anthropology, I was
amazed to discover that he was passing this stuff off as honest-to-God
*ethnography* - he actually got his PhD for "Journey to Ixtlan",
submitted under a different title.

Re Cordwainer Bird - Ellison goes into his use of this covername in
some detail in the forward to a story in a recent paperback edition
of "Strange Wine".

				j c patilla
				jcp.jhu@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 14 September 1982 1611-EDT
From: Don Provan at CMU-10A
Subject: Carlos Castenada
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

i like the Castenada books and believe in a lot that they say.
if i'm so greatly wrong, i'd be interested to hear why.  i've
never been into halucinogenic drugs, so blasting me for being
manipulated by a conniving author is not sufficient.  *if*
Castenada was manipulating his readers, and *if* he was doing
it just to make money and is a real phoney, that *still* isn't
an argument against the basic philosophy expressed in the books.
as it is, the note in V6 #45 doesn't give any real evidence for
any of these three points.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1982 0123-PDT
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Frank Heberts  The White Plague
To:   sf-lovers at SRI-CSL


Nano-review:  so-so.

The White Plague has an interesting plot idea which is almost developed
well.  Characters who are almost real.  Biochemistry which is almost
correct.  And an editor who did almost nothing! The book is almost
worth buying.
	
The book starts out with an interesting twisting and intertwining of
several peoples lives.  The style is very involved, and it makes one
think and puzzle at bits of the first chapter.   However, as the book goes
on the style gets simpler and simpler, the intertwining soon restricting
itslef to chapters, then pretty much abandoned altogether.

The book is flat.  Considering that all life is facing possible extinction,
very little of that feeling of DESPERATION comes through.  Instead, the
book has as much End Of The World feeling as 'Travels With Charley'.

This book suffers from a problem that seems to be plaguing many SF books
these days;  either editors who don't edit, or writers who pad.   This
book weighs in at 400 pages, of which 200 are story and 200 are baggage.
A good editor could have chopped the dead wood out and produced a much tighter
more 'desparate' story.  It is hard to believe that the End Of The World is
near when the characters take a leasurely many week tramp through the woods.

Do other people think that modern SF&F books are tending to be overlong?
If people send to me (dolata@sumex-aim) I'll tally the results and send
it into sf-lovers in a week or so...

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 2100-PDT
From: Mike Peeler <Admin.MDP at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: John Brunner  (SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #47)
To: Allen at YALE
cc: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
In-Reply-To: Your message of 24-Aug-82 2101-PDT


Todd,


	      I am sure you will get a hundred replies to
	  your remark, "Zanzibar is well known, but never
	  won any awards or great acclaim," so I will be
	  brief:  since when have we started considering
	  Hugo Award winners deprived of acclaim?


Cheers,
     Mike

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 1982 11:03:45-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Subject: shielding in Podkayne

   I seem to recall that the statement was that the ordinary structure of
the ship provided the layers of shielding---there were four decks, representing
increasingly lower-class accommodations as you went inward, and each deck
flooring had to be sufficiently substantial (in order to support herds of
people at up to one G) that it incidentally provided the necessary radiation
shielding. So your description, while more economical than four layers on
the outside, would still require more material than Heinlein describes---
and hence would probably be thoroughly uneconomical since the ship travels
in continuous-acceleration "orbits" and changes spin to match the gravity
of the next port of call (yes, I know the spin should be gyro-stored, but
you're going to have significant inefficiencies in such a system). Speaking
of ship spinning, did you notice that they stopped spinning the ship to
dock? This strikes me as a bad idea, unless you really want to be able to
bring in peers and peons by difference entrances. . . .

------------------------------

Date:     14 Sep 82 15:38:55-EDT (Tue)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  Comments on Vol 6, #s 44-47
Via:  UPenn; 14 Sep 82 19:44-EDT

1)  British Education (per hjjh@utexas-11)
     A co-worker of mine who was once an Oxford don pointed out several years
back that one of the biggest distinctions between the US and UK educational
systems is the expectation that, no matter what one's field might be, one's
college education is almost totally focused on one's major -- all the liberal
arts courses and the "broadening" that the average American college student
is forced into via electives, sub-majors, and similar mechanisms don't exist.
Instead, the British student has had his or her breadth supplied at the high
school level, where it belongs.
  
2)  "Destination Moon" (per Griffin @ sumex-aim)
     At the L-5 meetings in April, where Heinlein was a Guest of Honor, the
film "Destination Moon" was shown several times to commemorate Heinlein's
part in its making, which was not as technical advisor, but rather as writer.
One can see many points in the flick where RAH drew almost directly from his
own stories, esp. "The Man Who Sold the Moon."
  
3)  Stanislav Lem (re many assorted entries)
     Overall, I think that Lem has been over-rated, primarily as a result of his
critical reception.  When was the last time you saw a "standard" sf or fantasy
writer given front-page treatment in the NY Times?  As several folks have noted,
how good Lem seems is very dependent on his translator; however, since he is,
I'm told, fairly fluent in English himself, I'm minded to wonder why he doesn't
take the time to check out the translations himself.
     The Continental writer who, to my mind, makes Lem pale in comparison is
Italo Calvino.  Often, their books deal with similar themes, but Calvino's work
(or, at least, his translations) are far more readable.  I especially recommend
his latest piece of fiction, "If On a Winter's Night A Traveller...", in which
the classic them of works within works within works within.... gets a superb
treatment.  In some ways, Calvino reminds me of Borges, in part because they
both have an interest in the occult and/or mystic, but Calvino writes in a
manner far less diffuse than Borges.
  
4)  Casteneda & Fantasy (re decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo)
     Ever since Casteneda's first book appeared, there has been a good bit of
controversy within the anthropological realms as to what his truth level really
might be.  There have been a number of articles defending his work as good,
honest field work, but there have also been many anthropologists who think that
his books are pure fiction.  They don't mind the fictionalization, but they do
resent his claims of academic credentials as a mechanism for selling his books.

     (By the way, the best spoof of Castenada is to be found on The Firesign
Theatre's album "Everything You Know is Wrong," which also takes on UFO cults,
the Air Force's plans for alien invasions, and Evel Knievel.  It may be out
of print, but it's worth finding at your local cutout store.)

5)  Violence and the Roadrunner
     The last three issues of "National Lampoon" have had an excellent series
dealing with the notion that the Coyote finally gets sufficiently fed up with
his failures that he sues the Acme Products Corp.  (suppliers of all the items
that never catch the bird) on assorted counts.  The legal machinations on both
sides ring all too true.  Whether you're on the side of the Roadrunner, or that
of Wile E., you should look this one up.

6)  Courtship Rite (re Walker @CMU-10a)
     I talked briefly w/Kingsbury at Chicon, and he commented that the serial
version of the story was over 20K words shorter than the bookstore version,
but that he got to do the trimming, so there was some control over what was
lost.  He agrees with me that the cover does not accurately depict the scene
it was intended to represent, and that the tattooing has no relationship what-
soever to that described in the book.    In fact, the artist originally didn't
want to do tattoos on the bodies at all!
     Unlike many authors (tho' this may change as time goes on), Kingsbury
actively seeks contact w/fans at conventions.  He even goes so far as to throw
his own open parties!  Certainly a far cry from those who hole up in the SFWA
suite. . . but such is life.
  
7)  John Brunner (re N.NELSON@SU-lots)
  
     John Brunner wrote three novels in the same world-scenario.  The third
(your article mentions the first two -- Stand on Zanzibar and The Jagged Orbit)
was The Sheep Look Up.  It didn't get quite the acclaim of the other two, for
a number of reasons (all wrong, I dare say).  
     The key factor was that Stand on Zanzibar was, to many sf readers, a bold
and daring experiment in writing style.  (That, of course, is because few of
them recognized that Brunner was, quite intentionally, adapting the style of
John dos Passos [q.v., U.S.A.] to science fiction.)  I suspect that it was
style, rather than quality, which won this book the Hugo.  (Note:  I'm NOT
knocking the book; it's one of my favorites on both style and quality.)  When
Jagged Orbit appeared about eighteen months later, the newness of what he was
doing had worn off, and the fans didn't respond as positively.  When The Sheep
Look Up (which deals extensively with the problems of pollution and industry in
the future Brunner had posited) came out, the style was old hat and interest
had waned.  (It might even be the case that many fans resented books that
demanded a bit of thought during the reading process, but perchance I'm too
snide.)
     One key feature in Stand on Zanzibar was the coming-to-awareness of the
giant computer, Shalmanesar (sp?).  Curiously, a fairly recent academic book
from MIT Press (I don't recall the precise title, but it's something on the
order of "The Cybernetic Intelligence in Science Fiction," by Patricia
Warringer) which does note later works by Brunner on this theme fails to even
consider this aspect of SoZ, focusing instead on Asimov's positronic brains
and Three Laws.  It's work like this that makes me suspect my fellow academics
should be kept away from sf, for their own safety.
  
Well, enough for now . . .time to read the next few issues, which just arrived.
Dave

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1982  8:19:25 EDT (Sunday)
From: Andrew Malis <malis at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: A perfect Vacuum
To: sf-lovers@sri-csl
Cc: malis at BBN-UNIX, ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@Berkeley

I have also always wanted to get A Perfect Vacuum, especially
after having read excerpts of it in The New Yorker.  It is a
collection of ridiculously pompous "scholarly" reviews of
non-existent books, and the "reviews" that I read in New Yorker
were absolutely wonderful.  Well, I was on a trip to Europe this
summer, and in an English bookstore in Vienna (Shakespeare and
Co.), I found a British trade paperback that was a collection of
Solaris, The Chain of Chance, and A Perfect Vacuum.  Since I
didn't previously own any of the three, this was absolutely
perfect, and I snapped it right up.  If you want to order the
book from your local store, the book is a King Penguin, published
in Britain by Penguin Books, 625 Madison Ave, New York, NY 10022,
and was first printed in 1981.  The ISBN number is 0 14 00.5539 8,
and the suggested price is 3.95 pounds, or $9.95 Canadian. 

The translations are by Joanna Kilmartin and Steve Cox for
Solaris, Louis Iribarne for The Chain of Chance, and Michael
Kandel for A Perfect Vacuum.  I don't know if these are the same
translators for the American editions or not.

If you like imaginary literary criticism, then you'll LOVE
Vladimir Nobokov's Pale Fire, which contains the same sort of
review of a non-existent epic poem, and is absolutely hilarious,
especially if you suffered through the real thing in high school
or college. 

Andy Malis

------------------------------

Date: 12 September 1982 14:42-EDT
From: John G. Aspinall <JGA at MIT-MC>
Subject: Sequel to Brunner's Zanzibar
To: Allen at YALE
cc: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC

According to the cover blurb, "The Sheep Look Up" is a sequel to
"Stand on Zanzibar".  It is not an obvious sequel; it does not contain
the same set of characters etc., but it certainly could take place in
the same universe, a few years later.

Re your comments about "Jagged Orbit" - I have always regarded that as
a good but imperfect stab at what he finally covered much better in
"Shockwave Rider".

I've read most things by Brunner that I could get a hand on - I don't
have my collection handy, but those that come to mind include :

Stand on Zanzibar          - highly recommended
The Shockwave Rider        - ditto

The Sheep Look Up          - well worth the read, but not first rank
The Jagged Orbit           - ditto

The Infinitive of Go       - a novelty - Brunner discovers hackers' language

The Dreaming Earth         - read 'em at the laundromat, but don't break a
Age of Miracles            - date to do so.
several others

John Aspinall


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 55
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 55
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
    Violence, Lem, Invaders in Bay Area, Jedi, E.E. Smith, 
    Le Guin's THE COMPASS ROSE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst @ PARC-MAXC
Date: 12-Sep-82 21:30:49 EDT
Subject: Peace Makes Dull Reading
To: SFL@SRI-CSL

I sympathize with the chap who bemoans the preponderance of violence
in SF.  I refuse, in fact, to see Bladerunner because of the nauseating
descriptions garnered from friends.

But consider what SF is:  NOT prediction, but entertainment.  Every
creative writing course I ever took stressed that without conflict, you
don't have a story.  There are many different kinds of conflict, but
the easiest to concoct (and apparently the most attractive, judging
from the box office take of such pasture puddings as "Halloween" and
"Friday 13") is stick-em-in-the-guts violence.

Remove conflict from SF and what you have are travelogs.  Clarke has
done whole books of such travelogs, written as speculation but wailing
for incorporation into works of fiction.  In fact, his novel "Imperial
Earth" was almost utterly without conflict, and came across pretty much
as a travelog of Earth in the year 2350, when all our problems have been
oh-so-neatly (and I damned well didn't believe any of it) put to bed.

I write regularly, and I publish a few stories a year.  I have
tried writing "idea stories" which underplay conflict, and I get them
bounced an awful lot.  Gotta have conflict, sayeth the rejection slips.

Sadly, only a few stories come to mind as lacking heavy violent conflict.
One obscure one is "world in a Bottle" by Kim Lang, and no, I don't even
remember where I read it.  Also, "Shortstack" by (I think) Henry Kuttner.
It's rough to do a whole novel without violence.  Maybe "The Gods
Themselves" by Asimov.  I may think of others and put them forth.

But honestly, peace makes for dull reading.  If handled well, violence
in fiction can be a warning.  If handled badly (as in Bladerunner) it's
nothing more than playing to our adrenals for bux.

Nytall,

Jeff Duntemann

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 1982 11:36:19-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
To: spac.gatech at udel-relay
Subject: violence in SF
Cc: sf-lovers at sri-csl

   Let's leave aside for the moment the obvious answer that \some/ sort
of conflict is necessary to motivate the tale---otherwise you end up with
what Harlan Ellison sneeringly calls "pink-and-white bunny rabbit stories".
   First, note that you have grouped together a number of people with very
different slants; Haldeman concludes that war in space is likely because we
won't have adequately put down the flippos who love to make war here on Earth
(consider the first officer and non-com in THE FOREVER WAR, both of whom took
cuts in rank to get into action).
   Second, SF comes out of a violent tradition that is only gradually being
shaken; just as horse opera needs gunfights, space opera needs space battles
(Consider Doc Smith, "worldwrecker" Hamilton, and others of their period).
Note that various authors have worked against this; half or more of the heroes
of the Foundation trilogy are those who use trickery of one sort or another to
\\prevent// a conflict (the downfall of Bel Riose, the final defeat of the
Mule).
   In post-World War II SF I'd say the majority of stories don't deal directly
with armed conflict. You mention Retief, who is certainly violent on a small
scale and who in at least one story brings in plans that tip the balance in
an invasion of a planet; I would counter with Flandry, who has promoted some
wars but has generally worked to delay the final battle by using whatever
underhanded means he has available (and Flandry is hardly an unmitigated
hero; Anderson is not being coy when F's archenemy tells him they two are
much alike).
   Considering more recent times, I don't think any of Le Guin's heroes are
military people; some of them muddle because they are thrust into political
conflicts but they are always working for a peaceful solution. And for a
capper look at this year's Hugo winner, DOWNBELOW STATION: the people who come
out looking best are those who break out of the imperium vs. colonies
struggle and make themselves an independent entity.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1982 22:00:45 EDT (Saturday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #45
In-Reply-to: Your message of Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

   (In the air is the smell of gasoline; you hear a match striking...)

   Why violence?  Because violence isn't the point, it's simply the easiest way
to evoke certain emotions.

   Two things: First, change is often viewed as disruptive, as upsetting the
existing order of things.  Significant changes often cause major disruptions.
Examples are changes in philosophy of government by those operating the
government; changes in manufacturing technology that may leave many jobless
while creating new kinds of jobs for others; a sudden, successful military
invasion of a neighboring country.  Presenting the disruption as visible
violence makes the abstract feeling of change immediate and discernible to all.
The magnitude of the violence is an indication of the magnitude of change
being wrought.

   Second, people are often confused by what appears to them to be a
bewildering array of options, choices, and consequences.  Yet most people have
experienced times when their objective was sufficiently clear and their means
of achieving it sufficiently within their reach that all the confusion could
be swept aside and consumed in positive, directed action.  The central figures
are often portrayed as people who have arrived at such a moment in their lives.
The violence is their sweeping aside all obstacles, no matter how fearsome, no
matter how formidable to achieve their objectives.  In many cases, the
objectives are presented as the "right" choices, perhaps even the "moral"
choice.

   In short, violence is an oversimplification of the world which helps to
establish right and wrong (or "us" and "them") and which tries to say that
problems can be solved.  Negotiators remind an audience that life is
complicated and that problems usually have many sides, conflicting goals, and
that solution is difficult at best if you fundamentally grant the "other side"
an equal standing.  What's the most effective way to "solve" the "Palestinian
problem"?  Wipe out the people who are causing the problem and then there
will be no more problem.  Easy, huh?  Negotiations  could go on forever.  If a
book or a movie is to keep the reader's interest, it can't drag on forever.
The successful books about negotiators are those about ones who, through
insight or trickery, cut through all obstacles to peace in a rapid, decisive
manner.

   Violence works because there are a lot of people who don't want to have to
deal with the world in all its complication.  The problem is that when books or
movies resort to violence, they can evade teaching us how to deal more
effectively with the world around us.  And, in the end, if you haven't learned
how to handle complexity, it won't surprise anyone that you resort to violence.

   (The fire dies down...
    End flame.)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 1982 0030-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #46
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

In-Reply-To: Your message of 11-Sep-82 2251-EDT


Lem's A Perfect Vacuum, has been in print for at least 5 years
(hardcover at least).  I took it out of the library then, and haven't
see it around since. I found it to be a bit random, but I guess if
you're a great fan you'd like it.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 1982 1801-PDT
From: Jim McGrath (SF-LOVERS Moderator) <CSD.McGrath at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Invaders
To: sfl at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI


Are showing on channel 36 at 5:00pm on Saturdays in the Bay area.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 1982 1601-CDT
From: Greg Elder  <ELDER at GUNTER-ADAM>
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi
To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI

The October issue of Epic Illustrated shows a couple of production paintings
from RotJ.  The magazine also states that the movie is scheduled to be released
on Friday, 27 May 83.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1982 1725-EDT
From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: [David Dyer-Bennet <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>: SF Lovers submission]

- - - - - - - Begin message from: David Dyer-Bennet <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Date: 24 August 1982  21:48-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David Dyer-Bennet <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Subject: SF Lovers submission
To: young at market


( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #40 )

(Tim Shimeall <tim.uci@UDel-Relay>) Spacehounds of IPC has no apparent
connection to other works.  The tone is closer to Skylark than to the
Lensman universe, but there is no evidence of any connection.

The Family D'Alembert series is published by Pyramid as by E.E. "Doc"
Smith with Stephen Goldin.  I have only  4 volumes of it; my last,
Getaway World, carries a 1977 copyright date.  I have seen them in
stores much more recently than that, in fact within the last year.

------------------------------

*** SPOILER, the following message reveals information about Le Guin's ***
*** THE COMPASS ROSE. 

Date: 12 Sep 82 2:52-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject: Le Guin book review

n559  0219  12 Sep 82
BC-ROSE-09-12
    A BOOK REVIEW
    By Scott Sanders
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)
    
    THE COMPASS ROSE: Short Stories. By Ursula K. Le Guin. Harper & Row.
$14.95.
    
    (Scott Sanders, an essayist and novelist, teaches at Indiana
University.)
    
    Just as we read the news, so we should read the olds - we should
study accounts of what is perennial in human experience. The richest
accounts I know are kept in books, especially books of fiction.
Although novelists are sometimes confused on this point (taking the
word ''novel'' too literally and regarding themselves as
journalists), the greatest works of fiction have rarely chronicled
the day-to-day, but have reported instead on those matters of nature
and character and thought that change slowly, if at all, beneath the
shimmer of current events. To paraphrase poet William Carlos
Williams, ''It is difficult to get the news from stories, yet men and
women die miserably avery day for lack of what is found there.''
    For 20 years now, in more than a dozen novels and several books of
tales, Ursula K. Le Guin has been luring us down through the changing
surface of the everyday, into the durable landscapes of dream and
fairy tale and myth. Because those landscapes are often projected
onto alien planets, which her characters sometimes reach by means of
spaceships, publishers have seen fit to call much of her work science
fiction. But her work has more in common with the metaphysical fables
of Kafka and Borges than with the technological projections of Asimov
and Heinlein.
    Le Guin draws many of her dominant images, as well as her habit of
vigorous speculation, from science. But her concerns and her
narrative patterns are much older than science, as old as the Bible
and the ''Odyssey.'' The 20 recent stories gathered in ''The Compass
Rose'' display in brilliant variety her unsettling fusion of science
and myth, modern surfaces and ancient depths.
    In ''The Water Is Wide,'' for example, a physicist is driven to
suicide by his knowledge concerning the world's nuclear arsenals. The
technology that triggers his anguish is a recent one, but the anguish
itself is as old as conscience. In a dialogue called ''Intracom,'' a
spaceship becomes the metaphor for that earliest of traveling
vessels, the human body, in this case a female one, which gestates
that primordial alien, a fetus.
    Another story unfolds on a distant planet, where a second-generation
painter learns to see his alien environment with a new eye for its
unearthly beauties. Beneath the contemporary garb of space-travel,
his story is that of all immigrants, who must slowly learn to grasp
with their minds the new land which they so quickly occupy with their
bodies.
    ''The Pathways of Desire'' is also set on another planet, this one a
garden paradise. The anthropologists who study the place conclude
that it is an adolescent boy's dreamscape, and they in turn,
re-enacting a Hindu myth, become the dreamers of their own story. Le
Guin strips away layer after layer, until the scientists are revealed
to be the avatars of gods.
    This interplay between ancient and modern is nowhere more chillingly
displayed than in ''The New Atlantis.'' As a more corrupt and
oppressive version of our own world sinks into the ocean, a fresh
world arises from the depths. The two are bound together like the
rising and falling ends of a teeter-totter, and the prose styles that
Le Guin uses to describe the dying and the nascent world answer one
another like antiphonal voices in music. There is talk in the story
of continental drift and plate tectonics; but the deeper theme is the
power of human yearning to conjure up a better, nobler dwelling-place
in the midst of suffering.
    Occasionally her characters even seek out bleak landscapes and
undergo suffering, as if the outward emptiness called forth an inward
plenitude. The women in ''Sur'' who journey to the South Pole are
drawn by the ''white place on the map, that void.'' They conduct
their expedition in the most scientific manner; but the compulsion
that drives them and the discoveries they make have nothing to do
with reason, and very little to do with the 20th century.
    Not all the stories in ''The Compass Rose'' are thus alloyed of
science and myth. Several of them record the derailments of the heart
brought on by the death of a parent or spouse. In the second half of
''Two Delays on the Northern Line,'' for instance, a man whose life
has been shattered by the death of his wife inherits a house in
another city, and that new home restores to him a sense of purpose.
Several of them show us the world as it might be observed through the
eyes of beasts. Thus we see a maze and a psychologist from the rat's
point of view. We watch from inside a she-wolf as her mate, in the
dark of the moon, changes from wolf into that most hated of all
brutes, a man.
    But above all, these stories suggest that the human capacity for
imagining contrary realities - and especially that capacity for
public dreaming we call art - endures, whatever else may shift about
in the winds of technology. In one of the most powerful stories, a
man who has been sent to the madhouse because of his unorthodox
political beliefs proves his sanity by imagining a perfect rose. The
imagined flower is his song, his poem, his painting, his gesture of
opposition and affirmation. Electrical treatments will eventually
destroy him. But in the meantime the psychiatrist who is monitoring
his thoughts is so enlightened by the rose that she takes up the
condemmed man's politics. And so imagination cuts through even the
latest model traps.
    All of these tales move - as Le Guin has written elsewhere that good
fiction should move - in ''the direction of the great myths and
legends, which is always toward an intensification of the mystery of
the real.'' Her deepest subject is that of a quest, the tale of a man
or woman who has been cast into a baffling world among strangers and
must find there a true identity, a correct path, a mate or comrade, a
way home.
    END
    
nyt-09-12-82 0509edt
**********
n559  0219  12 Sep 82
BC-ROSE-09-12
    A BOOK REVIEW
    By Scott Sanders
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)
    
    THE COMPASS ROSE: Short Stories. By Ursula K. Le Guin. Harper & Row.
$14.95.
    
    (Scott Sanders, an essayist and novelist, teaches at Indiana
University.)
    
    Just as we read the news, so we should read the olds - we should
study accounts of what is perennial in human experience. The richest
accounts I know are kept in books, especially books of fiction.
Although novelists are sometimes confused on this point (taking the
word ''novel'' too literally and regarding themselves as
journalists), the greatest works of fiction have rarely chronicled
the day-to-day, but have reported instead on those matters of nature
and character and thought that change slowly, if at all, beneath the
shimmer of current events. To paraphrase poet William Carlos
Williams, ''It is difficult to get the news from stories, yet men and
women die miserably avery day for lack of what is found there.''
    For 20 years now, in more than a dozen novels and several books of
tales, Ursula K. Le Guin has been luring us down through the changing
surface of the everyday, into the durable landscapes of dream and
fairy tale and myth. Because those landscapes are often projected
onto alien planets, which her characters sometimes reach by means of
spaceships, publishers have seen fit to call much of her work science
fiction. But her work has more in common with the metaphysical fables
of Kafka and Borges than with the technological projections of Asimov
and Heinlein.
    Le Guin draws many of her dominant images, as well as her habit of
vigorous speculation, from science. But her concerns and her
narrative patterns are much older than science, as old as the Bible
and the ''Odyssey.'' The 20 recent stories gathered in ''The Compass
Rose'' display in brilliant variety her unsettling fusion of science
and myth, modern surfaces and ancient depths.
    In ''The Water Is Wide,'' for example, a physicist is driven to
suicide by his knowledge concerning the world's nuclear arsenals. The
technology that triggers his anguish is a recent one, but the anguish
itself is as old as conscience. In a dialogue called ''Intracom,'' a
spaceship becomes the metaphor for that earliest of traveling
vessels, the human body, in this case a female one, which gestates
that primordial alien, a fetus.
    Another story unfolds on a distant planet, where a second-generation
painter learns to see his alien environment with a new eye for its
unearthly beauties. Beneath the contemporary garb of space-travel,
his story is that of all immigrants, who must slowly learn to grasp
with their minds the new land which they so quickly occupy with their
bodies.
    ''The Pathways of Desire'' is also set on another planet, this one a
garden paradise. The anthropologists who study the place conclude
that it is an adolescent boy's dreamscape, and they in turn,
re-enacting a Hindu myth, become the dreamers of their own story. Le
Guin strips away layer after layer, until the scientists are revealed
to be the avatars of gods.
    This interplay between ancient and modern is nowhere more chillingly
displayed than in ''The New Atlantis.'' As a more corrupt and
oppressive version of our own world sinks into the ocean, a fresh
world arises from the depths. The two are bound together like the
rising and falling ends of a teeter-totter, and the prose styles that
Le Guin uses to describe the dying and the nascent world answer one
another like antiphonal voices in music. There is talk in the story
of continental drift and plate tectonics; but the deeper theme is the
power of human yearning to conjure up a better, nobler dwelling-place
in the midst of suffering.
    Occasionally her characters even seek out bleak landscapes and
undergo suffering, as if the outward emptiness called forth an inward
plenitude. The women in ''Sur'' who journey to the South Pole are
drawn by the ''white place on the map, that void.'' They conduct
their expedition in the most scientific manner; but the compulsion
that drives them and the discoveries they make have nothing to do
with reason, and very little to do with the 20th century.
    Not all the stories in ''The Compass Rose'' are thus alloyed of
science and myth. Several of them record the derailments of the heart
brought on by the death of a parent or spouse. In the second half of
''Two Delays on the Northern Line,'' for instance, a man whose life
has been shattered by the death of his wife inherits a house in
another city, and that new home restores to him a sense of purpose.
Several of them show us the world as it might be observed through the
eyes of beasts. Thus we see a maze and a psychologist from the rat's
point of view. We watch from inside a she-wolf as her mate, in the
dark of the moon, changes from wolf into that most hated of all
brutes, a man.
    But above all, these stories suggest that the human capacity for
imagining contrary realities - and especially that capacity for
public dreaming we call art - endures, whatever else may shift about
in the winds of technology. In one of the most powerful stories, a
man who has been sent to the madhouse because of his unorthodox
political beliefs proves his sanity by imagining a perfect rose. The
imagined flower is his song, his poem, his painting, his gesture of
opposition and affirmation. Electrical treatments will eventually
destroy him. But in the meantime the psychiatrist who is monitoring
his thoughts is so enlightened by the rose that she takes up the
condemmed man's politics. And so imagination cuts through even the
latest model traps.
    All of these tales move - as Le Guin has written elsewhere that good
fiction should move - in ''the direction of the great myths and
legends, which is always toward an intensification of the mystery of
the real.'' Her deepest subject is that of a quest, the tale of a man
or woman who has been cast into a baffling world among strangers and
must find there a true identity, a correct path, a mate or comrade, a
way home.
    END
    
nyt-09-12-82 0509edt
**********

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 56
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 56
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:
    E.E. Smith, HHGttG, Lem, "True Names", Road Warrior, aspiring 
    authors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 1982 1725-EDT
From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI
Subject: [DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>: SF Lovers submission]

- - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Date: 24 Aug 1982 2356-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
To: YOUNG at MARKET
Reply-to: DYER-BENNET at KL2137
DTN: 231-4076
Mailstop: MRO1-2/L14
Subject: SF Lovers submission
Message-ID: <"MS10(2066)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11850524677.46.253.7808 at KL2137>

More on Doc Smith's Family D'Alembert series:  Having checked my book
shelves in better light, I see that I have 6 in the series.  The first
4 are from Pyramid, as I reported earlier.  The fifth is from HBJ, and
the sixth is from Berkeley.  The copyright on the fifth is 1980.

The Best of E. E. "Doc" Smith (HBJ paper, 1979, copyright 1975) contains
a story called "The Imperial Stars", which is the first part of the book
Imperial Stars.  No publication history is given in either place (curse
Pyramid and HBJ), but one of the forwards of Best Of dates the piece in
1964.  ... Ah ha!  The bibliography in The Universes of E. E. Smith
(Ron Ellik and Bill Evans; Advent, 1968) credits that to Worlds of IF,
May 1964.

Then, of course, there is the Lord Tedric series, and Masters of Space....

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1982 1139-PDT
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER at USC-ECLC>
Subject: More Lem
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

Well, some people must think I have a one-track mind, but since some
others seem this way to me, I don't feel so bad. I have just finished
a recent Lem acquisition which has been out since the early seventies.
It is translated from German translated from Polish, but it seems to
have survived pretty well. The book is THE INVINCIBLE; it could be
classified in the genre of "realistic SF," which to some people is a
contradiction in terms. Anyway, the story concerns the cruiser
INVINCIBLE as it touches down on planet REGIS III to investigate the
disappearance of the cruiser CONDOR several years earlier. The CONDOR
is found is somewhat battered condition, and the crew members that are
found are dead. The crew of the INVINCIBLE is at a loss to explain how
this could have happened, and in the process of investigation, they
uncover mysterious clues about insect-like "flies." Strong magnetic
fields also seem to play an important part in the mystery, as does the
inexplicable circumstance of several people having part or all of
their memory erased.

I won't give away further details of the story for those who might be
interested in reading it; I thought it was very good, myself. Once
again, Lem has involved his interest in artificial intelligence in his
writing, which makes for a novel idea and interesting reading. Another
theme which gets introduced later in the book is the purpose and
morality (maybe there's a better word) of man's trying to colonize and
conquer things which may be beyond both his mental and physical reach.
This book is good reading for people who enjoy a mystery that is
solved slowly. It deals quite a bit with the thoughts of a few of the
characters, and it's quite possible some people might find it boring
for lack of action, since it has few intense battles or whatever some
people need to keep their interest.  It is quite like SOLARIS in that
it involves the psychology of men in space who almost seem to wage war
with the planet they land on, somehow knowing deep down that they
can't win. This is NOT a lighthearted book, and readers familiar with
Lem's playfulness in works such as the CYBERIAD and MORTAL ENGINES
will find none of that here. THE INVINCIBLE is similar in form to some
of Lem's TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT; thus, people who have found those
boring will probably find this equally entertaining. For people
interested in seeing a different side of Lem, THE INVINCIBLE is a good
place to look.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 1982 1541-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Vol III of HHGttG  
To:   sf-lovers at MIT-AI   

Copies of the British paperback edition of Douglas Adams' "Life, The
Universe, and Everything" (the third volume of the Hitchhiker's Guide
to the Galaxy), are available at the Green Apple bookstore on Clement
St. in San Francisco.  Be warned: the imported edition is $4.50!!!
But if you're desperate (I certainly did not feel *that* desperate)

------------------------------

Date:  1 Sep 1982 1625-EDT
From: LEWIN at CMU-20C
Subject: Here's the plot...(t.v.)
To: sfl at SRI-CSL

I'm trying to remember the name of an old t.v. science fiction series
from the '50s or possibly very early '60s. The hero was a Commander
Buzz (?) Correy, who has a faster-than-light spaceship which doubled
as a time machine. 

Among the adventures I remember were plots involving intelligent crystalline 
life-forms, visiting Salem (Mass.) during the witchcraft trials, and a visit
to contemporary (ie-1950s) America to halt a bomb test. Correy's companions
included the standard kid, girl, goofy sidekick and dithering scientist,
but the plots and science fiction ideas were generally superior.

------------------------------

Date:  2 September 1982 2224-EDT (Thursday)
From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60)
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl, human-nets at rutgers
Subject:  True Names, good deeds

	As most of you know, the novelette, "True Names" by Vernor Vinge
is the best (and almost the only) presentation a very modern (and very
Human-Netty) view of the near future - the period just before machines
reach and exceed human intelligence, and the the scene becomes
incomprehensible to us mere mortals - a vision missed entirely by
pre-computer-age writers, but which seems rapidly to be coming to pass.

	As many of you also know, published copies of "True Names" are
very difficult to come by.  Vernor Vinge holds the copyright, but the right
to publish is currently in the hands of Dell books.  Dell went out of the
science fiction business last year, and is no longer marketing Binary Star
#5, in which "True Names" appears, but is hedgeing its bets by hoarding
a few thousand warehoused copies.  As long as any remain Dell is
technically still publishing the book, and retains the rights. To maintain
this status, they are legally required to honor mail requests for the book.
When they run out Vinge can re-sell and  "True Names" can get the
distribution it deserves.

	Thus there is an opportunity to do youself, Vinge, SF and Human-Nets
freaks, the wider community, and even Dell, a lot of good.  Quoting from
the book-back order form:

	Dell Books
	P.O. Box 1000
	Pinebrook, N.J.  075058

	Please send me ( ) copies of "Binary Star #5" containing
        "Nightflyers" by George R.R. Martin and "True Names" by
	Vernor Vinge.  I am enclosing $__________ ($2.50 per copy
	plus $0.75 per copy for postage and handling).
	Send check or money order - no cash or C.O.D.'s.  Please
	allow up to 8 weeks for shipment.

	Name____________   Address_______________  City__________ Zip ________

No, I am not an agent for any of the parties involved - just a do-gooder!

------------------------------

Date:  3 Sep 1982 1226-EDT
From: LEWIN at CMU-20C
Subject: "Road Warrior" and indirection --Mild *SPOILER*
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

"Road Warrior" confirms a theory that I've held for years that a good
sf movie does not need special effects to be effective. Without going
into too much detail, "Road Warrior" creates a savage future vividly,
as does "Bladerunner". Since RW is set after the collapse of
civilization, no high-tech effects are needed.

While violent, RW's violence is more suggested than seen. In the
prologue, you "see" Max's wife and child run over by motorcyclists.
Actually, you see them being chased, then children's shoes falling to
the road. "This indirection  resembles that in "M" when child-murderer
Peter Lorre's next act is symbolized by his victim's balloon bobbing
upward, trapped under telephone wires.

Another successful sf film with no special gadgetry is Jean-Luc
Godard's "Alphaville", in which his hero travels between galaxies in
an automobile driving along a causeway, yet there was still a definite
sf feel.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1982 1412-EDT
From: LEWIN at CMU-20C
Subject: Forwarding previous messages for sf-lovers
To: sf-lovers-request at SRI-CSL

(1)
"Road Warrior" confirms a theory that I've held for years that a good
sf movie does not need special effects to be effective. Without going
into too much detail, "Road Warrior" creates a savage future vividly,
as does "Bladerunner". Since RW is set after the collapse of
civilization, no high-tech effects are needed.

While violent, RW's violence is more suggested than seen. In the
prologue, you "see" Max's wife and child run over by motorcyclists.
Actually, you see them being chased, then children's shoes falling to
the road. "This indirection  resembles that in "M" when child-murderer
Peter Lorre's next act is symbolized by his victim's balloon bobbing
upward, trapped under telephone wires.

Another successful sf film with no special gadgetry is Jean-Luc
Godard's "Alphaville", in which his hero travels between galaxies in
an automobile driving along a causeway, yet there was still a definite
sf feel.

(2)
I'm trying to remember the name of an old t.v. science fiction series
from the '50s or possibly very early '60s. The hero was a Commander
Buzz (?) Correy, who has a faster-than-light spaceship which doubled
as a time machine. 

Among the adventures I remember were plots involving intelligent crystalline 
life-forms, visiting Salem (Mass.) during the witchcraft trials, and a visit
to contemporary (ie-1950s) America to halt a bomb test. Correy's companions
included the standard kid, girl, goofy sidekick and dithering scientist,
but the plots and science fiction ideas were generally superior.

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1982 1659-EDT
From: LEWIS at NLM-MCS (Bil Lewis)
Subject: SF Writers?
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
cc: LEWIS at NLM-MCS

	Outside of reading a fair amount of SF (as many of my
friends do), I occasionally WRITE the stuff, and every now and
then (rarely) it gets published. I have good reason to believe
that I am not alone in this (net-people being rather creative
individuals in general), and wonder if there are others around
who would enjoy sharing, criticizing, others' work.

	To a large degree I would just like to be part of a
group of like-minded writers (and "soon-to-be writers") with
whom I could argue. But there is more:

o	There is alot of total BS coming out about machines
	(always has been) by people who've never written a
	single line of LISP. Why should WE let an amorphous
	"them" write about OUR machines, lives, eccentricities?
	WE can certainly do better than that!

o	Remember all this talk about how "someday" people will
	not go down to the bookstore, but simply scan new titles
	on-line and select whatever is of interest to print on
	their friendly LSR? By my figuring we can do that right
	now. I mean hell, we're the future aren't we? Let's start
	acting like it!


	Thus my suggestion: People who are interested in forming
such a group MSG me. That includes folks who have written, who are
planning to, and any voyeurs who just like to read. Depending upon
the number I'll contact Jim or somebody & see what kind of a mailing
list we can/should create.

	I've got a couple of things on-line right now, I'm sure
others do. We can exchange files, ideas, &c. right off the bat.
What say?

Reply to: LEWIS@NLM-MCS

-Bil

------------------------------

Date:  7 Sep 1982 1701-PDT
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
Subject: Now availible...
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
cc: katz at USC-ISIF

Find out how to fly!!!

Find out why Earth is shunned by most other galactic races!!!!

Find out more about the question to which 42 is the answer!!!!

Yes!, its finally here, "Life, the Universe, and Everything" is out
in paperback, the third volume of the HGttG series.

It is quite funny.

			Alan
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 57
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 57
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:

    Piers Anthony, comments on SU-LOTS messages, Carter's WIZARD OF ZAO,
    Lem, next Star Trek movie (and possible spoilers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  8 September 1982 14:52 mst
From:  RMann.HDSA
Subject:  Piers Anthony oversight
Reply-to: RMann.HDSA%PCO-Multics at MIT-Multics

No mention of Piers Anthony in any of your lists of SF authors ? I find
it difficult to believe that anyone who has read Mr. Anthony could not
help but rate him with Ursula LeGuin, Robert Silverberg, Ray Bradbury
(BTW Martian Chronicles deserves an A+) and other SF greats.

Mr. Anthony is a master story teller who is able to charm the reader
with his wit, intelligence, and incredible(but not impossible)
imagination into staying up way past his bedtime reading "just one more
page".

For example, in "Viscous Circle" we are introduced to a a civilization
of Bands living in the boonies of the universe.  Now, the Bands are
metallic toruses (tori??) that communicate by refracting light through
the center of the torus and modulating it with information. They are
incapable of war and have no concept of property. They do not die,
instead they voluntarily disband and have their auras join the viscous
circle.

Intruding on this blissful and peaceful existence are monsters that are
bony creatures covered with fat and water which leave refuse wherever
they go called Solarians. The story involves the means by which this
anarchic and peaceful Band civilization overcomes the invasion by the
monsters.

This book is a part of the Cluster series which includes "Thousandstar",
"Cluster" and others. Also recommended are:"A Spell for Chameleon",
"Source of Magic", "Castle Roogna", "Centaur Aisle", "Split Infinity".

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1982 09:22:32-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
To: sf-lovers at mit-ai
Subject: su-lots comments

   I suppose we had to have someone quoting Rottensteiner here at some
point. (It would be even more amusing to read what Farmer has to say about
this spirited exegesis.) Rottensteiner's problem is that he usually talks
about his opinions on what he's read, rather than addressing what he's read
directly; his opinions seem to be shaped by the same forces that made
Hawthorne, Poe, and Lovecraft the favorite American writers in Europe. I
wouldn't go so far as to call him a toadying lickspittle, but he is a
[socialist] who reserves his highest praise for [behind the Iron Curtain]
authors, such as Lem, whose criticisms of the various regimes are most
muffled, while being routinely abusive of the more sardonic authors such as
Mrozek. I dug through as much of his badly-illustrated book about SF as I
could stand; it's a great piece if you want to learn how to trash books but
don't expect to get much insight into SF from it.


------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1982 18:23 EDT
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Wiz. of Zao?? (P.PARDNER at SU-LOTS)
To: SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL
cc: Heiny.Henr

Yes "The Wizard of Zao" is the correct title.  It's by Lin Carter,
published by DAW books.

I don't know if there are any more in the series out, planned, or whatever. If
you find out, I would like to know, too.

Chris

------------------------------

Date:     15 Sep 82 15:54:49-EDT (Wed)
From:     Steve Platt <platt.upenn@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  Wizard of Zao

 ...another book by Lin Carter, the one-plot author.

The book is definitely one of a proposed series, as you state, involving
one story on each planet in a solar system.  To my knowledge, none of
the other books in the series have been written. (Wizard was printed
by DAW; I doubt it is still in print; Carter's stuff tends to stay
available for around a year before fading away to used bookstores.)

I have found Carter amazing in how far one author can stretch a single
half-baked S&S plot -- at last count, he has written <far too many>
of the same book (let's see, a half-dozen Thongor, 5 Green Stars, around
5 World's End, a series I don't remember well, around a dozen assorted
"hidden city in the valley" books, 8 Jandar's....)...

If you want a quick plot synopsis of any and/or all, just string together

	Hero finds princess again and loses her
	Hero gets entrapped in some mortal danger

as often as you wish, or until boredom.

(Not that I should knock it too badly; if you are in the mood for a real
pulp trash S&S book, he can't be beat...)

	-steve

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1982 21:34:38 EDT (Wednesday)
From: John Redford <dm.jlr at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Lem's "A Perfect Vacuum"
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Cc: vlsi at dec-marlboro

A few weeks ago someone asked about Stanislaw Lem's "A Perfect
Vacuum".  I too looked long and hard for it until I found it in the
MITSFS's library.  It came out in hardback in 1979.  Call me a fan;
I've been tempted to order it from the publisher (Harcourt Brace
Jovanovitch, 757 Third Avenue NY,NY 10017).  The book is a collection
of reviews of imaginary books.  It starts, of course, with a quite
unflattering review of itself.  And, as is also natural, most of the
books are about reality distortion.  In "Gruppenfuhrer Louis XIV"
a fleeing Nazi general sets up his own version of the French court
in the hinterland of Argentina; in "Being Inc." the mega-corporations
discover the ultimate in consumer satisfactions: arranging the circum-
stances of the customer's life to make him the hero or villain of
his own personally tailored drama.  The FTC, however, prevents the companies
from merging, so they must compete with one another when their client's
demands conflict.  By the time of the book's action, they secretly 
arrange every event in the United States.  Some of the reviews are
philosophical parodies, Eg. "Kultur als Fehler" (Civilization as Mistake),
where a stolid German proposes that culture arises when
sufficient misunderstandings about the world accumulate to form a closed
system of belief.
    The best two pieces, though, are the last, "Non
Serviam", and "The New Cosmogony".  "Non Serviam" was reprinted in
Hofstadter and Dennett's book "The Mind's I".  It is supposed to
be a paper by a researcher into "personetics", the science
of creating artificial personalities inside worlds inside the computer.
The researcher has absolute power over his creations; he can bring them
into existence, destroy them, and change their world at will.  He is
to these creatures as God would be to us.  His main interest in them,
therefore, is having them argue theology.  Most of the paper is a debate
among the personoids on what should be their proper attitude towards
their creator.  Their conclusion: "we shall not serve".  
    "The New Cosmogony" is the acceptance speech of a Nobel prize
winner in physics.  He describes his remarkable theory about the source
of physical laws.  The universe is more than ten billion years old.
Several generations of stars have come and gone.  Billions of years
have elapsed since the first civilizations could have arisen, so the
question becomes, where are they?  Why don't we see their names spelled
out with galaxies for pixels?  His answer is, they are there, in fact
they are everywhere, and the structure of physical law is their
handiwork.  Laws did not arise out of the inherent structure of
the universe; they are rules established by competing primordial
civilizations.  All the players are operating under game theory, so they
adopt certain conventions to prevent catastrophic upsets.  Thus,
physical laws are homogeneous throughout the universe because all the
players pick the same, optimal strategy.  There is no travel through time
because that would give an unfair advantage, and for the
same reason information cannot travel faster than light.  Relics of past
conflicts can be seen in quasars and in the microwave background radiation.
We haven't been visited by a dozen space-faring races because the big
boys suppress young cultures that get too uppity.  And the clincher is
that the "psychzoics" (how the hell does that get translated from Polish?)
have not yet finished with physics.  There are subtle little asymmetries
still to be worked out.  For instance,  left and right are indistinguishable
except in the beta decay of a certain kind of muon.  If we can see
these inconsistencies being smoothed out we can tell that the psychozoics
are still at work.
   Whoo-ee.  Eat your heart out, Niven.

John Redford

------------------------------

*** SPOILER, the following messages reveal plot details of the next Star ***
*** Trek movie. You may not wish to read further ***

Date:     15 Sep 82 16:22:07-EDT (Wed)
From:     Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Mit-Ai
Subject:  Next Trek


The following is a collection of messages that were entered into a
hobbyist-type bulletin board service.  I thought these might be of
interest and/or amusement to the readers of this digest.  The discussion
on that BBS stopped about 2 weeks ago so I guess this is the end
of the matter there.  I have deleted a few extraneous comments and
the like; any changes I made to the entries have been indicated
by a comment in square brackets.  Enjoy.

# 346
From : PHIL    To : TREKKERS
Subject : THE PLOT OF THE NEXT ST MOVIE    Date : Mon. 08/09/82 21:13
*******  S P O I L E R   W A R N I N G  *******
 
This is the plot of the next Star Trek movie, as pieced together by
yours truely. Those who want to be suprised should ^c this message.
 
Ok. Remember, towards the end of ST:TWOK (The Wrath of Kahn), just
before Spock goes down to the engineering deck to fix the warp drive,
he stops at McCoy, and does a little touching with his fingers, and
says, "Remember..." ??? Well, bearing in mind that the average human
uses 10%-15% of his brain capacity (In McCoy's case 4%-6%), there's
lots of room left over. What Spock did was to take a "memory dump"
(sorry) and make a backup of his mind into the spare space of
McCoy's brain. (We have precidence for this. Remember the episode
with Sargon, the intelligence in the white sphere? In that one, Spock's
mind was transferred into the sphere, then into Nurse Chapel's brain,
where she carried it around until they got Spock's body back.)
 
Now, Spock's body has been dropped onto the surface of the planet
that was created by the Genesis effect. It would be reasonable to
expect that the body would be revived by the reminants of the
effect, but since the body has been dead for so long, the brain will
be blank. 
 
Also, since we would now have a new, revived Spock, here's a perfect
chance to get Leonard Nemoy out, and replace him with somebody
younger.
 
I'm sure that you can see the possibility here. For some reason, the
Enterprise goes back to the planet, they find Spock, and the memory
gets restored! Viola! 
 
now, this wouldn't be much of a story by itself, so here's some twists.
Remember, Mister Savvik is a Vulcan/Romulan half-breed. (I've got an
idea how that happened, too.) Would it be beyond the reach of
possibility that she will fall in love with the new, improved Spock?
 
I suspect that it might be possible to see the Romulans discover the
new planet, and pick up Spock. Then the enterprise goes after them,
with Mr. Savvik (I love that "Mister") leading the way.
 
Anybody got any more ideas?
 
                                          ...phil

# 349
From : GENE SPAFFORD    To : PHIL REED
Subject : TREK    Date : Mon. 08/09/82 23:34
Pick up a copy of the book "..Kahn..." (etc.)  There is a lot of
background in there that wasn't in the movie, including the
origins of Saavik.  By the way, half Romulan, half Vulcan 
types are very sensitive about the fact...if they live.
Read the book.
 
As to your speculations....we have thought about all of what you
mentioned, but figured that they probably won't try something in
that vein since the first movie got into trouble by getting
a little too far-fetched.  However, the memory dump idea is
a real neat idea.  We must wait and see.  I, for one, think
that Spock is actually the one other hope of the Jedi, and
they're in *real* trouble now that he bought the farm.

# 354
From : DAN DOSSIN    To : PHIL REED
Subject : MOVIE    Date : Tue. 08/10/82 06:13
Thanks Phil, really thanks.  You just saved me
about $15 dollars (including pop corn).
Perhaps you could give us the 6:00 news for the
next week or so.  With that information we could
decide iif it is worth while to get out of bed.
I would like some inside information on the stock
market.  Nothing big, just enough to make a couple
of million.  Thanks.
      The Mad Forester.

# 355
From : JEFF GARBERS    To : TWIMC
Subject : THE *REAL* STORY    Date : Tue. 08/10/82 09:15
No, no, Phil, you've got it all wrong.  Few people know
 it, but I am employed as a creative consultant to the studio
 responsible for the Trek movies, and they gave me free
 rein for the next movie.  So here's the *real* story.
 
Captain Kirk, despondent over the loss of his pal Spock,
 quits Starfleet and opens a Taco Bell on Betelgeuse 3.
 The tranquility and grease soon get to him, and we feel
 pity for the Captain as we see him sticking two burritos
 onto a tostada, running around with the resulting model,
 and crying 'Zoooom! Nyaaaaaaow!  Pow! Pow! Take that,
 Klingons!  Nyaaaaaow!'  The Captain is relieved of his
 franchise when he is found stepping on Cinnamon Crispas
 "because I like the sound".
 
Meanwhile, the brain transferrence between Spock and McCoy
 (Phil guessed right on that one) is taking its toll 
 on the good doctor.  Spock's personality has begun
 to assert itself (as a result of some assertiveness
 training, no doubt) and McCoy is found attaching little
 Play-Doh points to his ears.  "I'm a doctor, dammit,
 *and* a computer technician," he shouts, much to the
 amusement of the lab animals in Sick Bay.
 
On the bridge, it is revealed that Mr. Saavik really *is*
 a mister, and he/she is kicked out of Starfleet for
 dressing too extravagantly and attempting to corrupt
 an ensign.
 
The main conflict in the movie arises when the female 
 crewmembers mutiny, angrily demanding that they get
 their old mini-skirts from the TV show back.  They
 take over the Enterprise and re-decorate in pastels.
 Starfleet is perturbed and threatens to ban the
 Enterprise crew from playing video games during
 shore leave.  The situation is rectified.
 
But what of Uhura?
 
 /// JPG

# 357
From : KATHERINE RIVES    To : LUNITICS, ETC.
Subject : UHURA???    Date : Tue. 08/10/82 11:32
 
Hi everyone. 
 
You folks don't know about Uhura???
Having discovered Kirk on B-3, Uhura takes over the ship with
McCoy/Spock &  Mr. Saavik. She then takes the now insane Kirk in tow
and sets out to retrieve Spock's  body. She then aranges a trade where
Spock enters Kirk's brain, straightens out Kirk and can't get out
again. So Kirk finds his way into Uhura's body, and Uhura, finding
things a bit crowded for her taste, vacates for Spock's old body
(which Spock understandable wants back). In the meantime, Saavik
has fallen in love with Spock not knowing that Uhura is in his body,
which iritates Uhura  to no end.
At this point Gene Rodenberry has a nervous breakdown and ST IV
is eagerly awaited.
 
      >>KAT<<  

# 360
From : JEFF GARBERS    To : TWIMC
Subject : TREK III    Date : Tue. 08/10/82 19:17
Sample dialog from Trek III:
 
Chekov:  "Klingon destroyed, kyptin!"
 
Kirk:  "Ooh! What a difference photon torpedoes make!"
 
/// JPG

# 366
From : PHIL REED    To : TREKKERS
Subject : SAVVIK'S PARENTS    Date : Wed. 08/11/82 09:10
Jeff, nice try. However, see if you can top this.
 
We all know that Savvik is half Vulcan, half Romulan. The question
that springs to mind is "How did this occur" (Besides the mechanics,
I mean)??
 
Curiously, we can answer this question with information from the ST
series. Remember, one of the second season episodes had the Romulans
owning a cloaking device that would make their ships undetectable.
As usual, Kirk & Co. decide to rescue the federation. They draw
lots and pick Spock as the person who could slip aboard without
being recognized, and Kirk as backup, after he gets a little plastic
surgery on his ears.
 
So, Spock beams aboard, and after some (mis)adventures, gets himself
captured. He is taken to the Romulan captain (a female, remember?)
who, very much taken with him, invites him to dinner. In fact, we
see them at dinner, *in* *her* *quarters*!! Who can guess what 
dessert was?
 
So, we see that >>>SAVVIK IS SPOCK'S DAUGHTER<<<
 
 
Top that.
                                  ...phil

# 381
From : ROY GREEN    To : KAT & PHIL
Subject : CAT AND TREK    Date : Thu. 08/12/82 21:42

   [Some non-Trek-related comments deleted here. -- Spaf]
 
phil, your assessment of st3 sounds plausible, however.....
betsy (the human) and i jumped to the same conclusion about
mister savvik, however, since vulcans only go into heat (both male
and female) once every seven years, i find it unlikely that
such a clandestine affair could've occured.  (spock's parents
*were* married (or whatever they called it that era).)
  
later....
         
  r.green,esq.
    plot analyst for dean-witter

# 388
From : KATHERINE RIVES    To : TREKKERS
Subject : SAAVIK    Date : Fri. 08/13/82 21:07
 
NO, NO, NO!! you have it all wrong.
 
First of all, there seems to be some confusion as to how the woman
spells her name. Once and for all, it is Saavik.
 
Secondly, you must read the novel form of ST-TWOK. Besides being reasonably
well written, it gives a lot of additional background that is not in
the movie. For instance, Saavik is indeed half Vulcan and half Romulan.
However, this came about on a planet where the Romulans were in charge of
things. It seems that one of their notions of fun is to rape captive
Vulcans and then force them to live to see the birth of the bastard
or give birth to it, as the case may be. Since the official Romulan
word was that mating between the species was impossible, these
children were abandoned when they vacated the planet. Certainly the
Romulan parents did not need them after they served their purpose
of humiliating their Vulcan parents.
 
This is where Saavik comes in. She was about 12, and a wild abandoned
child when Spock found her on this planet. He saw some potential in
her and saw that she got thru the Academy. Much of her upbringing,
not to mention her Romulan ancestry, shows up in her temper. And
being very proud, she refused the test that would positively identify
her Vulcan parent, not wishing to bring disgrace on the dead parent's
family.
 
For all you who hoped that Spock had gotten something from that
Romulan commander long ago...   sorry.
 
       >>KAT<<
 

# 392
From : PHIL REED    To : WHOEVER
Subject : QUICK NOTES    Date : Sat. 08/14/82 23:33
Trek: I will point out that in the Trek movies, as with SW and TESB
(Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back), the ONLY thing you can count
on is the movie. G. Lucas has made a great deal of noise to speculators
that all speculation must NOT include any written sources, that only
the information in the movies must be considered. I understand that
the ST folks are the same way.
 
    [non-Trek-related stuff deleted here --Spaf]
 
                                             ...phil

# 393
From : MARVIN YIZAR    To : JEFF
Subject : SPOCKS SPERM    Date : Sun. 08/15/82 01:41
SAAVIK IS SPOCK'S DAUGHTER!!! A VERY LOGICAL DEDUCTION!!
BOY ARE YOU GUYS UP THERE!! YOU ARE REALLY ON THE BALL!!
WE ARE STILL WONDERING HOW THAT BOY BECAME KIRK'S SON??
WHEN DID KIRK GET MARRIED?? 
   [Some comments concerning behind-the-scene activities
      deleted for lack of couth.  --Spaf]

# 395
From : HOWARD MILLER    To : TREKKIES
Subject : KIRK'S PECCADILLOES    Date : Sun. 08/15/82 09:35
   Anyone who has watched Star Trek knows that there were many
scenes in which Kirk is seen putting his boots back on after
spending more than the required 5 minutes in his quarters
with some strange but beautiful woman.
    As for marriage, everyone knows his marriage certificate
says 'ENTERPRISE'.

# 404
From : ROY GREEN    To : MARVIN YIZAR
Subject : SPOCK'S WILD OATS??    Date : Mon. 08/16/82 20:08
Once again, I reiterate....
   Spock is a Vulcan, no?  Vulcans have mating cycles of SEVEN
(Count 'em) years.  It is 'highly illogical' to assume that 
Spock would have wasted his 7-year itch on a Romulan female, since 
Spock himself seems to be a bit insecure of his own half-human
status.
    Kat's explanation (from the book) is much more plausible.
It would be a nice turn if Saavik were Spock's daughter, and
eventually married David.  However, I'm sure that someone on the
production team has nixed that as being too trite a situation.
I'm sure Saavik and David will be married.  And I think there will
be a not-so-silly way of bringing Spock back from the dead.
Since the Genesis matrix was so strong it could create from nothing,
it should be strong enough to revive Spock.  But that brings the 
focus to the 'remains' of Khan's merry band.  Might they also be 
revived??  And track Kirk down to thank him???
   and what becomes of uhura?

# 411
From : PHIL REED    To : ALL
Subject : HELLO, I MUST BE GOING...    Date : Wed. 08/18/82 04:42
 
Roy: The difference between Spock and Kahn's crew was that they were
  caught by the initial burst of the Genesis effect, but Spock's
  body was stuck on the planet later.
 
                                  ...phil

# 413
From : KATHERINE RIVES    To : ALL
Subject : ANY    Date : Wed. 08/18/82 20:55
       
Marvin and other Trekkers: Everyone knows that Kirk was married only
   once. The episode was entitled "The Paradise Syndrone" and his wife
   was the indian woman Mirrimani (sp?). As for Spock, I agree with 
   Roy (msg 404). Look up that and msg 388.
 
Phil: That's very interesting about the written sources not being
   officially sanctioned by the ST crew. I had thought otherwise.
   What is to prevent someone from distorting the story all out of
   proportion, once getting permission to write it??
 
Roy: Hi, you have a very good point about Spock. Even when he was 
   officially married to T'Pring, he was not interested in her
   (granted, he had just 'killed' his captain to get her). One
   wonders, though, what Amanda (Spock's mother) did in the seven
   year intervals... bet she was plenty bored.
 
                           >>KAT<<

# 427
From : ROY GREEN    To : KATHERINE AND DAVE
Subject : AMANDA AND CAT HAIR    Date : Fri. 08/20/82 21:34
KAT,  IF AMANDA WAS ANYTHING LIKE MY EX-FIANCE, THEN SHE COULD
GO 14 YEARS WITHOUT BLINKING AN EYE. (WHICH IS WHY MY EX-FIANCE IS EX-)
MAYBE HER HUSBAND WAS A VULCAN VERSION OF A SUGAR DADDY?
  
   [non-Trek-related comments deleted here.
      But what of Uhuru?  --Spaf]


End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 58
*** EOOH ***
Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 58
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          11-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 58

Today's Topics:
    Dune declining, SF cons list update, ET, Piers Anthony, Bradbury
    Brunner, Jedi trailer, MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS query, sequel
    failures, AI in SF query, Bradley's HAWKMISTRESS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1982 0003-PDT
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons listing updated
To:   Cons-List update notice list:
cc:   SF-Lovers-Request at SRI-CSL

OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for
FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP,
using any password.

CONS.TXT is currently 1088 lines (or 53,175 characters).  Please try to
limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if possible,
as the system is heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 1982 1709-EDT
From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO
To: SF-Lovers at MIT-AI
Subject: [DD-B <DYER-BENNET AT KL2137>: SF Lovers submission]

- - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B <DYER-BENNET AT KL2137>
Date: 15 September 1982  10:45-EDT (Wednesday)
To: Young at Market
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET AT KL2137>
Reply-to: DYER-BENNET AT KL2137
DTN: 231-4076
LOC/MS: MRO1-2/L14
Subject: SF Lovers submission

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #44 )

(Dolata at SUMEX-AIM) Medics 'last gasp' efforts:  given the
postulated state of almost complete ignorance, how can you be sure
that the alien is really about to die?  If you don't know that the
alien is about to die, how can you justify taking drastic actions with
no information to guide them?  And, of course, how can you justify
ignoring the reactions of the person (even if only a kid) who knows
most about the alien?

( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #45 )

(Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>) Interesting thoughts on our
heroes.  For some gentler SF, I'd recommend looking into Piers
Anthony's Xanth series (4 books currently?).  There's a lot of
conflict, but the main character seems to me to strive consistently to
minimize it.

------------------------------

Date:     16 Sep 82 11:28:04-EDT (Thu)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  Science Fiction & Opera

     Bradbury's planned "Moby Dick in Space" (c.f. SFL 6:48) won't be the first
sf opera (even if one ignores all the fantasy elements found in many operatic
plots).  Earlier this century, "Aniara" was written by (*I think*) Harry
Martinsson, a Swedish author & composer.  I don't recall whether the book came
before or after the opera, but the story is about the trials and tribulations
of the denizens of a "generation starship."  I believe that both book and
recordings are still in print.  The opera itself is quite interesting, as it's
laden with "spacy" instruments like theremins and ondes martinot.  I don't
believe it's been performed in the States in quite some time -- an interesting
project for some truly enterprising Con Committee!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1982 1124-PDT
Sender: BILLW at SRI-KL
Subject: The Sheep Look Up
From:  William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>
To: SFL at SRI-KL(Attn: sf-lovers)
Cc: oster at WHARTON-10
Message-ID: <[SRI-KL]11-Oct-82 11:24:06.BILLW>

Although the author, style, and tone of "The Sheep Look Up" are all
quite similar to "Stand on Zanzibar", it is in no way a sequel!
None of the characters are common, and the basic assumptions
(Pollution vs Over-population) are different.

WW

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 1982 1712-EDT
From: Alyson L. Abramowitz <ECG.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO>
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
Subject: Contributions From ENet SF-LOVERS

From:	MERLIN::WAJENBERG      15-SEP-1982 15:37  
To:	KIRK::SF_LOVERS
Subj:	Declining quality of DUNE books

Someone recentlyasked why the first DUNE book was so much better than
the others. The person who said it was because Campbell was a hidden
co-author has a great deal of truth on its side. But there is another
reason. DUNE (the first book) holds rigidly to the Heroic Cycle as
described by Lord Raglan, a British anthropologist.

Ragaln lays out 22 events which an ideal hero goes through. No real
hero of myth or legend scores all 22, but many get the vast majority.
Paul Muad'Dib gets about 20 of the 22. Unfortunately, he gets almost
all of them in the first book. Only two or three are left for DUNE
MESSIAH, and CHILDREN OF DUNE and GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE are beyond the
cycle completely.

I don't claim the cycle is magical, but it HAS managed to attract
a good deal of human interest, in all cultures, for as long as we
have record. Anyway, it gave Herbert a ready-made plot. Once that
plot gave out, so did the DUNE series.

The things which happen to Paul Muad'Dib that occur in Raglan's
heroic cycle are (as best memory serves):

1) The circumstances of his conception are unusual. (His mother
conceived him male, when she could have conceived him female, and
was so ordered.)

2) He was threatened in childhood. (Rather late childhood, but there
it is.)

3) The person threatening was a relative of his mother's.

4) He eluded the threat and lived in a far land for a long time.

5) We hear little of the time he lived in the far land.

6) When he came of age (learned to ride sandworms), he arose to claim
his heritage.

7) He defeated a monster/tyrant (a Raglan hero can do either; Paul did
both if you allow worm-riding to count).

8) He married the daughter of his predecessor (Princess Irulan).

9) He ruled peacefully for a while.

10) He passed laws.

11) He lost the favor the gods/the people. (People in Paul's case.)

12) He was dirven from the community. (Self-exile, but in accordance
with old Fremen custom.)

13) He met a mysterious death.

I may have forgotten some. If anyone is interested, I can relate the
entire 22-point cycle, to the interested party alone, or to SFL generally.

------------------------------

Date:    19-Sep-82 7:52PM-EDT (Sun)
From:    Nathaniel Mishkin <Mishkin at YALE>
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi -- Trailer
To:      SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

I heard that the upcoming re-release of SW-TESB will contain an even
longer trailer (~15mins) for SW-ROTJ.  Apparently the SW people are 
not bothering to advertise either of the trailers (for SW-ANH or 
SW-TESB) figuring that its main attraction is going to be to SW
freaks and they're gonna find out about it anyway.

		-- Nat

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 1982 0929-MDT
From: Dudley Irish <IRISH at UTAH-20>
Subject: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL


Does anyone know where this title comes from originally.  I have been
told that it was used by Joni Mitchel(sp?) in a song and, of course,
we all know it as the title to a book by Heinlien, but does it have a
more noble past (if one could) that I don't know about?

For the curious, it came up in a conversation at a party.

					Dudley Irish
					IRISH@UTAH-20

------------------------------

Date:     20 Sep 82 17:11:03-EDT (Mon)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  Sequel Failure

     An entry in a recent issue of SFL tried to answer M. Melkar's question
as to why sequels are often less good than the initial books.  Without 
knocking the answer propounded, I'd suggest that a major reason is that which
Norman Spinrad has discussed at length in his column "Stayin' Alive," which
appears in LOCUS (and, I've heard, will soon be turned into a book).  Spinrad's
thesis, essentially, is that the current state of the sf publishing industry
(which differs in some ways from the "normal" publ. ind.) is pushing authors
into writing novels which have the potential for extension via sequels, and
that the necessity of creating such sequelae when one is (a) sick of the
characters and/or (b) has said all one wanted to say with them is a problem
that needs curing.  He feels that all segments of the sf world (authors,
readers, fans, publishers, agents, other media, &c.) are to blame for this,
though in differing degrees; the basic agent of the trouble, though, is the
need for the author to pay his or her bills.
     I know that some SFL readers are involved in the creation of sf in its
many forms, and would be interested in hearing their opinions on Spinrad's 
theory (which I've severely compressed, though hopefully w/o misstatement).

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 11 October 1982  18:49-EDT
Sender: AGRE at MIT-OZ
From: AGRE at MIT-MC
To:   sf-lovers at MIT-OZ

I have a question for the world of sf-lovers.  What are the ten science
fiction books that everybody who wants to understand artificial intelligence
should read?  Reply to me since I'm not an sf-lovers subscriber.  Answers
will go in the file OZ:<AGRE.MS>SF.BOOKS for the curious.      - phiL

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 82 1:14-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject: sf column

n520  2046  18 Sep 82
BC-SCIFI-09-19
    SCIENCE FICTION
    By Roland J. Green
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)
    Marion Zimmer Bradley's ''Hawkmistress!'' (DAWNew American Library,
$2.95 paperback) is her 16th novel set on the planet Darkover.
    Darkover, circled by four moons, rotates about a distant red sun.
Settled by the survivors of a lost starship, it remained isolated for
more than 2,000 years before the expanding Terran Empire rediscovered
it. During that time the settlers adapted to their new homeworld's
harshly chill climate and lack of metals. Sexual equality gave way to
patriarchy, democracy to feudalism or monarchy, and science to the
exploration of complex paranormal powers known as laran. Yet the
Darkovans survived, developed their own unique culture, interbred
with the alien chieri, and even survived the impact of contact with
the Terrans.
    This description sounds like the ingredients for good
straightforward space adventure with overtones of fantasy; indeed
''Darkover'' can be appreciated at that level. The description
doesn't make clear another undeniable truth: ''Darkover'' is an
authentic SF saga. For sheer skill in storytelling and wordbuilding,
for wit, for strikingly intelligent development of the concept of
telepathy, above all for continous concern for people, Bradley has
put some more famous SF sagas in shade.
    ''Hawkmistress'' begins when 15-year-old Romilly MacAran is faces
with an arranged marriage to a nobleman she finds utterly repulsive.
Not only that, he will prevent her from using her rare form of laran,
an ability to communicate with hawks and horses. Disguising herself
as a boy, she flees her father's estate and promptly discovers that
her new freedom is far from complete. She has exchanged old
constraints for new ones. In the end, she becomes involved in a
deadly civil war for the throne of the local kingdom, and finds love
(or at least affection), some reconcilation with her family, and as
much freedom as she now realizes she can reasonably expect.
    ''Hawkmistress'' lays out with exceptional clarity (although without
undue preaching) the themes of choice and price, central to Bradley's
work. The wise know that life is a series of choices, each with its
price. You can't have everything. The foolish try to avoid the
choices. The good are willing to pay the price of their choices
themselves, the evil or lazy (who in Bradley's books seem to be
roughly the same) try to fob off the price of their choices onto
others.
    Bradley doubtless owes a good part of her popularity to her eloquent
concern with the way men have of making women do the paying. Her
sympathies, however, are too broad and her sense of the integrity of
a story too well developed to justify pinning a ''feminist'' label on
her.
    Like many other SF authors, Bradley greatly benefited from the
collapse of the traditional 60,000-word limit for SF novels in the
early '70s. Beginning with ''Heritage of Hastur'' (DAW, 1975),
Bradley has moved from strength to strength. The Planet of the Bloody
Sun has proven more than slightly addictive to many readers, who
start off with one and shortly find themselves haunting the
bookstores for more. This, of course, is the reward every saga
creator dreams of; seldom has it gone to a worthier author.
    Acquiring all the books of a 16-volume sage is a daunting task.
Keeping up with short science fiction and fantasy is becoming every
bit as painful, with magazines constantly changing editors, owners,
and distributors, and sometimes winking out of existence between one
issue and the next.
    Three solid anthologies offer the SF reader short of time or money
to chase down all the magazines a good notion where short science
fiction is going, as well as a deal of fine reading. They are Terry
Carr's ''Universe 12'' (Doubleday, $10.95), ''Best Science Fiction of
the Year No. 12'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.95 paperback) and Donald
A. Wollheim's ''The 1982 Annual World's Best SF'' (DAWNew American
Library, $2.95 paperback). ''Universe'' is an anthology of original
and slightly experimental fiction; the two paperbacks hold
well-chosen reprints, and can be particularly recommended for SF
teachers.
    END
    
nyt-09-18-82 2336edt
**********



End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 59
*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 59
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          12-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 59

                        Today's Topics:
    Violence, Wolfe book postponed, HGttG, Here's the plot responses
    Haldeman, Pohl, Adams books


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 1982 2104-PDT
Sender: BILLW at SRI-KL
Subject: Violence
From:  William "Chops" Westfield <BillW@SRI-KL>
To: SFL at SRI-CSL(Attn: sf-lovers)

Foo.  There is violence, and then there is Violence.  Plannets can
be destroyed and millions killed, whippings inflicted and all sorts
of nasty things done without a book or movie being Violent.  It is
actually really difficult to write a book that is so violent as to
be offensive.  However, I can certainly do without a directors
(inacurate!) depiction of how a persons head explodes whe subjected
to vacuum, or pieces of bodies flying through the air, and the like.

Excessive, graphic, unnecessary Violence is objectionable, and not
necessary to the development of a conflict!

BillW

------------------------------

Date: 11-Oct-82 14:23:40-PDT (Mon)
From: INGVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Wolfe book postponed, and 42
Via: INGVAX.BerkNet (V3.74 [1/10/82]); 11-Oct-82 14:23:43-PDT (Mon)
To: SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL


	Heard from the mouth of the Simon and Schuster Rep. himself,
Citadel of the Autarch has been postponed until January. No reason was
given.
	A friend of mine (Charles Koester, to give credit) noticed that
42 = 6*9, when taken in base 13. Has anybody else noticed this (this is
all a reference to Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy...)

			Joe

------------------------------

Date:     12 Oct 82 2:45:21-EDT (Tue)
From:     Ron Natalie <ron@BRL>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  HGttG

You might be willing to pay the price for "Life, the Universe,
and Everything" if you are dying to know why the bowl of petunias
thought "Oh, No! Not again."


------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 14:45:46 EST (Tuesday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 56
In-Reply-to: Your message of 10 Oct 1982 22:27 PDT
To: SFL at SRI-CSL


Yes. I'm kind of hoping for a distraction the next time I'm falling
to my death.

	Jeff

ps. Do you think that Adams will ever tell us what the question to
    Life, the Universe, and Everything *REALLY* is?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 08:00 PDT
From: DMRussell at PARC-MAXC
Subject: "Here's the plot, what's the title?" -- from SFL Digest v 6, n 51
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL, Flowers@YALE, Black@YALE

The story about the telekinetic chimpanzee that escapes from the lab and
promises to make the world "go away" is --

"Susie's Reality"
by Bob Stickgold

Originally appeared in: "Worlds of If",  UPD Publishing Co. (1973)

Collected in: "Introductory Psychology Through Science Fiction", 
		H. Katz, P. Warrick, M. H. Greeburg, eds., Rand McNally (1974)

By the bye, the psych SF collection is superb!  It's one of my most treasured 
anthologies.  Sadly, I think it is now out-of-print.

-- Dan Russell

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 16:28 EDT
From: Russell.wbst at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: here's the plot ...
In-reply-to: SFL's message of 10 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
To: SF-Lovers at SRI-CSL
 

The story of the chimp with a different "view" of the world is 
"Susie's Reality" by Bob Stickgold. I have it in a book called
Introductory Psychology through Science Fiction which is a 
collection of short stories related to psychology published by 
Rand McNally. I recall enjoying this book tremendously when 
it was required reading for an undergrad psych course. The 
copyright in the book says the story was also published in 
Worlds of If in 1973 by UPD Publishing Corp.

regards,
Corky Russell

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 14:51:23 EST (Tuesday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Sequels
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl


Hmmm. It seems as if the world can't get enough of a good thing.

I notice that the "Xanth" trilogy is into its fifth book, and I'll
  bet that Mr. Anthony is busily writing the sixth. (No, he's probably
  writing the seventh book and the sixth one is at the publisher.)
Dr. Asimov just completed the forth book in the Foundation Trilogy.
George Lucas is busy creating an empire (no, he's already created it,
  and is busy investing the money wisely) on the sequel to the sequel
  to a very popular movie.
Larry Niven is writing "Ringworld" yet another time.
Clarke has just finished the sequel to 2001. (As if the movie was
  bad enough. Let's hope this book isn't mucked up the way 2001 was.)
Burroughs started the world thinking about "Gor", "Tarzan", and
"Conan",
  and others decided to write sequels. And sequels. And sequels. And...
The people in Hollywood decided to do a remake of the old "Superman"
  television series. Which was a remake of the comic books. Which was...
  And then there was "Superman II".

Need I go on?

It's a little bad when I can't just pick up a book, read it, and not
lie awake nights wondering about the loose ends. 

	Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 1550-EDT
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: New Projects: Haldeman, Pohl, Adams, Sim
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

At Chicon IV, i asked Joe Haldeman about the next book.  He said it
was about finished, and should be out next year.

Niven/Pournelle's next book is Footfall about an alien
invasion of earth.  The book is due to the publisher by
next spring.

Fred Pohl has just about finished the new Heechee book,
although at Chicon he decided to rewrite a 100 page section.
He plans a new book of stories detailing the next few
centuries of New York City, which will include one
entitled "The Day New York Hit the Fan" (so much for
New York in '86 worldcon bid if the city is gonna be
that hostile to fen).

Douglas Adams says that he won't be writing another Hitchhiker's
book, but then that is what he said after Restaurant.  If he 
does, the audience suggested the title "So Long, and Thanks
for All the Fish".  A movie of Hitchhiker's is planned, and
the ABC television series is dead (Thank Ghu!).  He is currently
working on a book which is a dictionary of English place names
with definitions based on what the word sounds like (this is
very hard to describe).

Dave Sim, creator of the Cerebus the Aardvark comic, says he
has plans for a movie version of Cerebus, all taking place
before issue one.  Any other Cerebus fans out there?

tom galloway

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 60
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 60
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          14-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 60

Today's Topics:
    Space Patrol, Piers Anthony, Bladerunner violence & anachronism
    Raiders "lost scene", Adams & 42, SF book club, SF opera, Spock
    Luke's father & everything

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue Oct 12 1982 22:19:02 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-UNIX>
Subject: Welcome Back SF-L and a query answered
To: lbl-unix!SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

Greetings!  All of us here at the Vortex are pleased to have SF-L
back with us.  

A recent digest asked about a late 50's/early 60's television
program that starred a character named "Corey" in a variety
of space/time adventures.  The only show I know of that fits
the bill is the famous "Space Patrol", which did indeed run
during that designated period.  Most of the shows were more
on the "space" theme, but it did cover alot of ground for the
time (and on a budget that would have made "Dr. Who" seem
well-endowed (so to speak) by comparison.)

The "USA Cable Network" currently carries "Space Patrol" as part of 
their (excellent) "Night Flight" program on Friday and Saturday
nights.  I believe that "Space Patrol" airs at around 11PM Eastern,
with a repeat about 3 hours later.  The show even includes the original
pitches trying to get kids to send in their quarters for the 
"monoview" cardboard space helmets ("you can see out but your enemies
can't see in...")  Priceless.

If your local cable doesn't carry USA Network, just aim your home
earth terminal at SATCOM IIIR and tune around -- you'll find it.

Once again:  "Welcome Back SF-LOVERS!"

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date:     13 Oct 82 01:37:29 EDT  (Wed)
From:     Chris Torek <chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  Non-violent stories?
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl

I suggest anyone interested in sf/fantasy in which the hero attempts
to reason out conflicts rather than battle them down read some of the
books by Piers Anthony.  Both his Xanth trilogy (five books now) and
his Double Exposure trilogy (only three books) fit this description.
Also of interest may be his Cluster trilogy (five books) and the
Orn/Omnivore/Ox trilogy (speaking of which, has anyone EVER seen all
three of these together at once?  I have a theory that one will be
eaten by the other two, at random, if they are all placed together.)
though it's been a while since I read these, and I'm not sure they fit
the requirements.

Anthony's main characters always seem to think with their brains
first, when possible.
					- Chris

------------------------------

Date:     12 Oct 82 20:39:55 EDT  (Tue)
From:     Paul R McMullin <paul.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  the violence in Bladerunner
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl, dunteman.wbst at Parc-Maxc

Go see Bladerunner, and decide for yourself. I personally abhor the
"violence-for-the-sake-of-blood-and-guts-on-the-screen" mentality, but
I didn't find Bladerunner near as objectional as I had been led to
believe it would be from the reviews in sf-lovers. All-in-all, I
thought that it was pretty good, and the violence WAS handled fairly
well in the context of the story.

------------------------------

Date:     12 Oct 82 08:43:13 EDT  (Tue)
From:     Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  anachronism in blade runner
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl

Perhaps Deckert has a Smallpox vaccination scar because sometime in
his life, some terrorists broke into CDC or WHO labs, stole the virus,
demanded money, and then released it to the general population. I, for
one could definitely see this happening (for instance, it's believed
that the plague remains encysted in london's plague pits, and if
someone was insane enough (most terrorists are), he could get into
one, and hold his own mini biological war...).

------------------------------

Date:      12 Oct 82 20:55:16-PST (Tue)
From:      Stephen Willson <willson.uci@UDel-Relay>
To:        sf-lovers.uci at UDel-Relay
cc:        willson.uci at UDel-Relay
Subject:   The scene they left out of raiders of the lost ark

My friend Paul Clatworthy, presently of Wichita KS, sent me the
following, which will be of interest to sf-lovers readers, assuming
they can stomach yet-another-RotLA story:

"as described by Lawrence Kasdan, screenwriter on raiders
'American Film', April 1982, p. 13,28

'In the first draft of Raiders, Indiana Jones is flying from the United
States to Nepal.  He's on the plane and he goes to sleep.  There's
a normal complement of passengers--a little old lady, some tourists,
some Orientals.  While Indy's asleep, the crew and all the passengers
get up together, put on parachutes, and tiptoe out of the plane,
leaving him there alone.  The pilot has locked the cockpit, and the
plane is headed for Everest or some other notable mountain.  He wakes
up, looks around frantically, and pulls out an inflatable life raft.
He wraps it around his body while it's still uninflated and jumps
out of the plane, pulling the inflation cord, and bounces safely
down in the snow.  Then he rides down the mountain using the
raft as a sled.  After we looked at it, we thought maybe that was
over the line.'

(good thinking, Kaz, 'ol buddy.)

ptc"

		Steve Willson
		willson.uci@udel-relay

--------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 Oct 1982 11:20-PDT
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL
Subject: The Answer (to L, the U, and E)
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX

	I heard from a usually unimpeachable source (doesn't hold
office, can't be impeached) that when asked flat-out, "What's the
significance of 42, and where did you come up with it?", that Mr.
Adams replied to the effect that the British Medical Association's
guidelines on what to do after childbirth specify that the couple
should refrain from intercourse for six weeks post-partum.  That's 42
days.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 13 October 1982 19:19-PDT
From: KDO at SRI-KL
To: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20
Cc: sf-lovers at MIT-AI
Subject: the Science Fiction Book Club

Yes, the SFBC is a good deal, especially if you like hardback books,
and are not such a snob that it upsets you for them to say "Science
Fiction Book Club edition" on them.  The normal deal is 5 books free
(or for $1) + about $3 postage and handling (and profit?) and then you
are required to buy 4 more within 6 months or a year.  Watch out - if
you are only getting 4 free you should look for a better offer.  I
believe it is possible to get a total of 6 free books under an
enroll-your-friend deal (member gets 1, friend gets 5).

Once you have bought your 4 books and quit, within a few months they
will probably send you a special rejoin-offer, involving 5 free books
and you only have to buy 1 more.

				Ken

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 2251-EDT
From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS (Mgr DEC-20s/Dir LCSR Comp Facility)
Subject: SF opera
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

Someone has already mentioned Aniara.  (I have also forgotten the
composer, but I remember a name closer to Karl-Berger Blomdahl.)  In
addition to that, C. S. Lewis' Perelandra was also turned into an
opera.  The music was written by Swann (of the British comedy team
Flanders and Swann).  The only performance I ever heard of was done by
Haverford and Bryn Mawr Colleges jointly.  It did a fairly good job of
reproducing the effect of the novel.  However the person who prepared
the words made what most people regarded as a few unnecessary changes.
None of them caused changes in the plot or character.  But Lewis'
dialog was perfectly good, and one just wondered what the point was to
changing it.  I made the official recording of the performance, which
is why I happen to know about it.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 1982 23:10:03 EST (Tuesday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Spock, Luke's father, and everything...
To: sf-lovers at sri-csl
Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX

Let me see if I have this straight:

Spock a.k.a. Zaphod Beeblebrox the IV - last hope of the Jedi -  shot
J.R. Ewing, who is Luke's father.

Does that cover all the [bases]?

	mike



------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 61
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 61
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          15-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 61

Today's Topics:
	Wanted: SF-LOVERS archives since August 1981
	Twilight Zone guide revision available
	review of Asimov's FOUNDATION'S EDGE
	Piers Anthony & violence
	plague alive and well
	base 13 and Hgttg
	TRON
	Bladerunner from R.U.R.?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 1982 1933-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: Wanted: archives of sf-lovers
To: sfl

We are trying to complete the set of SF-LOVERS archives and make them
available for general consumption. We have everything up to August 1981
but nothing since then. If you have the digests since then (or some
portion thereof) or know where they are, please let us know by sending
a message to this address.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1982 1637-PDT
From: Sfl
Subject: revision of Twilight Zone guide
To:   sfl

A new version of the Twilight Zone guide is available. Thanks go to Lauren
for making it available again. To get a copy, use FTP from your site.
The file is <SFL>TWILIGHT-ZONE.;1 on SRI-CSL. This machine supports
the ANONYMOUS login FTP convention.

Also, Lauren hints that a new revision of the Outer Limits guide may
be available soon.

------------------------------

Date: 15 October 1982 02:11-EDT
From: Don M. Matheson <DMM at MIT-ML>
To: SF-Lovers at SRI-CSL
Subject:Foundation's Edge 
 
	Having just read Foundation's Edge, I must admit that I was a
bit disapointed. One of the things that made the trilogy unique was
it's time- span, whereby a given set of characters would be dealt with
for a few chapters, then suddenly, they would be the legends in the
minds of the new characters, a few hundred years further down the
line. Foundation's edge covers just one such time-frame, albeit a
crucial one in regard to the Seldon Plan.
	More disappointing than this though, was the book's cop-out
there's- going-to-be-another-sequel ending. The conflicts built up to
until the last few pages are more or less brushed aside, and left only
partially resolved. Of course, it may be that I have an exageratedly
rosy memory of the original books, since it has been many years since
I've read them. Don't get me wrong though, I still recommend the book
to anyone who liked the trilogy.
	On a different note, has anyone seen any post-Tom Baker
episodes of Dr. Who? I saw a picture of the new Who on one of the
books, and he looks more preppie than timelordish (He even has cute
little questions-marks on his shirt-collars).  I hear that the
timelords can supposedly regenerate themselves periodically in a new
form, but somehow I can't quite picture this guy as Who. He doesn't
even have the hat, scarf, and/or an infinite number of pockets.
 
		Cheers -- DMM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1982 12:03:51-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
To: chris.umcp-cs at udel-relay
Subject: re non-violent stories (Anthony examples)
Cc: sf-lovers at sri-csl

   OMNIVORE/ORN/OX (to give them in their chronological order) is not exactly
a sterling example of non-violent working-out of problems, although those who
resort to violence first are sometimes shown as villains. Consider the
ambiguous portrayal of the various government agents. . . .
   Also, I have indeed seen all three of these together at once, although
only in a library; by contrast, BATTLE CIRCLE (containing SOS THE ROPE, VAR
THE STICK, and NEQ THE SWORD) is generally available. It's not surprising that
American publishers are careless about reprinting the works of an English
author (I didn't check during Seacon to see if British publishers were any more
attentive); considering that somebody let the rights to KING KOBOLD (the middle
portion of Stasheff's Gramarye series) lapse, I'm rarely surprised at
\\anything// American publishers fail to do.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 1982 09:41 PDT
From: Swenson at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Plague
In-reply-to: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #60
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
cc: Swenson.pa

"for instance, it's believed that the plague remains encysted in
london's plague pits, and if someone was insane enough (most
terrorists are), he could get into one, and hold his own mini
biological war...)."

The plague is alive and well in California's Sierra Nevada.  Several
cases are reported each year.  Antibiotics seem to work well if the
plague is diagnosed in time.

Bob Swenson

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 14 October 1982  16:16-EDT
Sender: RG.JMTURN at MIT-OZ
From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC
To:   sf-lovers at sri-csl
Subject: Base thirteen and Hgttg

Many people have noticed it. There is even a button stating the fact.
					James

------------------------------


Date: 15 Oct 1982 0454-EDT
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: TRON, etc.
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

I loved TRON, it reminded me strongly of our Vax and the little
privileged processes that I let run around it sometimes.  I thought
the representation of the innards of a mainframe were very well done
[although I have yet to see a vax built into a spherical box!].
Coupla minor things that I felt needed pointing out: How could Tron
feel the presence of his author's being logged in, if his author's
access had been canned earlier that very evening?  Or maybe MCP didn't
watch the dialups too carefully [which may be why Flynn's tank
programs could get in there in the first place].  Niggling point,
otherwise I loved it.  Anyone remotely associated with conputers
should definitely see it.

Re: the Pac-man in the chartroom - Where I saw it, the whole theater 
started laughing when that scene flicked by.

''Come on, old man, I don't care if it's set /nobroadcast, I have to 
get this packet out!''

''Oh, all *right*.  Stand by, son, we're about to do a QIO!''

A little later...

''Oh, so *this* is how we bring the monitor to its knees!''

Re: Road Warrior: I enjoyed this one too, and managed to ignore most
of the nastier violence.  I especially liked all the kludges that they
hacked into the vehicles; they must have had a whole raft of
high-school auto shop students turned loose on a junkyard to make some
of the props.  See it; you will arrive home wanting to crack out the
welder...

_H*

------------------------------

Date:     15 Oct 82 12:58:17 EDT  (Fri)
From:     Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  Blade Runner
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl

I noticed that the plot of ``Blade Runner'' borrowed heavily from the
Play ``Rossum's Universal Robots'', written early this century by
Carel Kapek (sp?). Rossum's robots were not the metallic-electronic
robots of contemporary sf, but pseudo-organic creations with a built
in life span of 20 years. They were built and sold as servants and
workers. The only major differences in the stories seem to be that
R.U.R. did not involve space travel, and the robots revolt and wipe
out the human race entirely.  R.U.R is mostly notable for being the
first use of the word ``robot'', which is derived from the word
``work'' in some eastern-european languages.

P.S.: Why did Los Angeles look like the interior of the Nostromo?

P.P.S.: Why did the police cruisers look like the flying saucers from
	``Close Encounters''?



------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 62
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 62
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          17-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 62

Today's Topics:

    Clarke's Laws, Bladerunner anachronism, SW/TESB & ice cream
    freezers, violence, Simak's WHERE THE EVIL DWELLS, Stallman's
    THE BEAST, Miesel's DREAMRIDER

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 October 1982 1323-EDT (Saturday)
From: David.Lamb at CMU-10A
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: Clarke's laws
Message-Id: <16Oct82 132334 DL10@CMU-10A>

Some time ago I mentioned Clarke's laws in this digest, and someone asked
me where they originated.  I have now found them again;  they occur in the
essay "Technology and the Future", chapter 14 of "Report on Planet Three"
by Arthur Clarke, available from Signet books.  The three laws are
1) When a distinguished but elderly scientist says that something is
   possible, he is almost certainly right.  When he states that something
   is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2) The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond
   them into the impossible.
3) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

------------------------------

Date:     15 Oct 82 19:35:41-EDT (Fri)
From:     Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
To:       sf-lovers at Sri-Csl
Subject:  assorted

Re: Smallpox vaccination scar in Blade Runner
Why is it assumed to be a smallpox vac scar?  Maybe it is a scar for when
he got the vaccine against Herpes II; maybe it's a birthmark;
maybe it is a case of a cosmetic scar (for instance, kids of later years
wanting to have something that looked like their elder's smallpox scars
so as to look like they "belonged"); maybe it is a scar from an
injury; maybe it was dirt.  In any event, I don't see that as a major
drawback.

Re: Ice cream freezers
Maybe this discussion already occurred and I missed it since I only
got on the net a few months ago, but those of you who have spent so
much time and energy looking for smallpox vaccination scars have
assuredly seen the ice cream freezers in SW:TESB.  WE've identified
at least 3 scenes...how many are there?

Re: Violence
When I wrote that original piece about a month ago, I didn't
intend it to be taken that I disliked action or conflict in my
books or movies or whatever.  Heck, I have so much conflict in
my life, I'd be bored without in my leisure time pursuits!  The
point I really wanted to make is that we don't seem to focus much 
attention on other methods of resolving conflict.  We don't idolize
the peacemakers -- only the violent ones.  Why is that?  If we view
humanity as the ability to apply reason to our problems and come up
with a measured solution, then why can't we view the future as an
improvement in this area?  Is it because we have so many weapons
and missiles waiting in the wings that the idea that we are
"human" even now takes on absurdist proportions?

Don't lecture me about what makes good literature -- that isn't
what I was asking.  Instead, ask yourself if speculative fiction
is supposed to represent our future (a form of Delphi sample in
paperback), and if so, why do so many writers see such pain
and violence as the general rule?  Then look at the world around
you now.

Gene Spafford

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 82 12:41-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
To: sfl at Sri-Csl
Subject: SF column

n566  0341  17 Oct 82
BC-SCIFI-10-17
    SCIENCE FICTION
    By Roland J. Green
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)
    
    Clifford Simak's latest novel, ''Where the Evil Dwells'' (Del
ReyBallantine, $11.95), is a deceptively simple quest tale. In an
alternate world, the Roman Empire still survives in 1300 A.D., but
the Evil - classic creatures of myth such as trolls, harpies, ogres,
and dragons - constantly threatens its borders. Three men and a woman
seek the soul of a legendary saint that may have some power to drive
back the Evil.
    The characters are more complicated than the story, and the
relations among them raise the book beyond the straightforward (less
tactfully, plodding) level of too many quest tales. Harcourt, the
nobleman's son, seeks a lost love either slain or kidnapped by the
Evil. Guy, the warlike abbot, wants to restore the glory of his abbey
by enshrining the saint's soul. The enigmatic girl, Yoland, carves
wood superbly and is an excellent scout, as well as knowing enough
about the land of the Evil to disturb her comrades. The Knurly Man
has gained a permanent streak of dourness, but also much wisdom in
his lifespan of several thousand years. And there are other
characters, such as Nan the witch, an eccentric parrot, assorted
magicians, and the inhabitants of the Evil lands themselves.
    In spite of calling the opposition merely ''the Evil,'' Simak is no
writer to leave them a faceless menace. There is an ogre with a
diplomat's desire to keep hostilities limited, a pathetic troll who
will do almost anything to get a new bridge and a murderous herd of
distinctly uncute unicorns. Simak knows very well that leaving the
''bad guys'' at the level of a mere force of nature affects our
ability to believe in the ''good guys'' as well.
    It goes without saying that Simak's clear prose and his ability to
paint a pastoral scene are as evident as ever. ''Where the Evil
Dwells'' does not appear to be as ambitious a book as his ''Project
Pope'' (also Del Rey Ballantine), but it is eminently successful
storytelling.
    The late Robert Stallman's ''The Beast'' (TimescapePocket Books,
$2.95 paperback) concludes ''The Book of the Beast,'' a trilogy that
has to be considered one of the major works of American fantasy of
the last decade. From beginning to end it has been an extraordinarily
powerful and effective use of the theme of the shape-changer.
    In the first two books, ''The Orphan'' and ''The Captive'' (also
Timescape paperbacks), the Beast travels from Depression-era Michigan
to Chicago and on to New Mexico, sharing bodies successively with a
child, a teenage boy, and a young man named Barry Golden. ''The
Beast'' finds Golden in New Mexico, the father of a human child and
increasingly uneasy about the coexistence of two beings in one body.
The Beast shares this uneasiness. A time is approaching when he must
find a female of his own species and mate with her, in order for both
of them to pass on to the next stage in the life of their species.
Otherwise they will be like caterpillers that can never become
butterflies.
    In all three books, Stallman has met every demand the story creates
for excellent characterization. He is a master of depicting altered
states of consciousness, and also of using realistic detail to bring
the 1930s to life as a setting for his fantasy tale.
    Sandra Miesel is an author who should have a long career ahead of
her, judging from her first novel, Dreamrider (AceBerkley, $2.50
paperback). In an Orwellian near-future where perverted popular
psychology takes the place of Big Brother, Ria, a young librarian at
the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, begins to have
strange dreams. Exploring these dreams leads her into an alternate
world, where the human race has been supplanted by intelligent
otters, the result of genetic engineering. The portrait of the
Orwellian world is a trifle shrill, but the alternate world is
convincing and consistent. The two shamans who help the girl
understand her situation, Kara the old woman and Lute the otter, are
delightful creations, and the whole book shows a remarkably
intelligent use of historical and mythic materials to create a
fantasy story.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 63
*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 63
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          19-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:

    Administrivia: the last guide had an incorrect subject of issue
    61 and should have been 62. The issue number in the text was correct.
    Dr. Who guide available, Anthony nits, HHGttG, nonviolence &
    Budrys' MICHAELMAS, satisified with SF Book Club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1982 1444-PDT
From: Sfl
Subject: DR. WHO guide
To:   sfl

Vince Fuller (VAF@CMU-20C) and Gregg Wolff (on a local network) have
generously made available for the SF-LOVERS readership a guide to the
DR. WHO series. On the Arpanet, the guide is on the SRI-CSL system in
<SFL>DR-WHO.;1. SRI-CSL supports the Anonymous FTP convention. If you
want it but cannot get it for some reason, mail a note to us and we'll
send you a copy by mail. The same goes for all the guides (Dr. Who,
Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, etc.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun Oct 17 23:00:32 1982
From: UCBVAX.decvax!watmath!bstempleton@Berkeley
Subject: Anthony and Hitch Hiker's Guide
To: sf-lovers@sri-csl


Anthony's writing is fairly good as far as holding a reader is concerned,
but he has two habits that really annoy me.   One, I wish he would stop
putting Tarot cards on every paragraph, and two, I wish he were less of
a sexist.

On the matter of the Guide BBC version, I found out why the episodes are
so badly cut.

(For those who have not seen, episodes end in the middle of conversations
and at other strange and stupid points that don't make any sense, when
there is a nice point to end about 54 seconds further down)

It turns out only 6 episodes were made in England, and they ranged from
30-40 minutes in length.  For American TV they split them up into 7 episodes
of exactly 30 minutes (no commercials) and just let the chips fall where they
may.  Sometimes they did a recap to help you.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1982 2029-EDT
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: 42 in base 13
To: sfl at SRI-CSL

In his interview at Chicon, I asked Adams if he was aware of this.
He said he had no idea of it until someone pointed it out to him,
and that 42 was chosen since it is <not> an intrinsically funny
number, unlike some others.  If he had chosen a funny number, such
as 17, the point of the joke would have been overshadowed.
tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1982 0057-EDT
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-20C>
Subject: Nonviolence in SF
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

Algis Budrys' "Michaelmas" is one of the least violent books I've seen
in a while.  Although there is a murder, the basic theme of the story
is that careful guidance of society has reduced violence to one-on-one
violence, rather than mass violence (war).  It is also one of the more
credible/well written "computer" stories, requiring only a minimum of
suspension-of-disbelief to make it work.  No cute jargon or other
defects which tend to mar computer stories by most writers.
				joe

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1982 0043-EDT
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-20C>
Subject: SF Book Club
To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL

I have been a member of the SF Book club for about 18 years now.  In
that time they have been totally reliable; I have had no problems with
them.  Their selection is overall a bit better than the random SF
collection found in most bookstores, but they still have turkeys.
Given the current price of paperbacks, I'd rather pay a couple dollars
more for a club hardback, even if it isn't up to Gregg Press standards
(and I have a few of those, too).  Mostly, if you are interested in
what they are serving generally, take a look in the used hardback
section of most good SF bookstores or many used-book bookstores.  I've
found that a lot of old SFBC books appear here.  Every once in a while
they offer (not as a regular selection, but as a special) reprints of
classic works, e.g., van Vogt, Asimov, etc.; I then look at my
tattered and worn paperback edition and shell out the $5 or so for an
SFBC edition.  A word of warning: their "members prices" do not
include shipping or sales tax; in PA, we have to pay sales tax on the
shipping so I usually figure adding about $1/book to their advertised
price.  Like any book club, you have to send back the little piece of
paper if you don't want the books offered; I've only blown the
deadline a couple times and they accepted the books back and credited
me with the full price/postage/tax (some clubs I belonged to would not
credit postage!)  Bottom line: a good middle-quality hardback service,
offering no more turkeys percentagewise than any other selection of
SF.
					joe


------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 64
*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 64
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          20-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 64

Today's Topics:

    APRICON V, E.E. Smith's Family D'Alembert, Hogan getting better?,
    Reviews of Niven/Barnes' DESCENT OF ANANSI, Stallman's THE BEAST,
    Murphy's THE SHADOW HUNTER

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 1982 2033-EDT
From: Kenneth H Lee <Comsw3123-2x.KH-Lee at CU20C>
Subject: APRICON V

APRICON V will be held on November 6, 1982.  GoHs will be Joan D.
Vinge and Jim Frenkel.  Noon Til Midnight.  Ferris Booth Hall at
Columbia University at 115th and Broadway.

/Ken

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1982 0953-EDT
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-20C>
Subject: Family D'Alembert

I have in my collection the following:

Imperial Stars (#1)
Stranglers' Moon (#2)
The Clockwork Traitor (#3)
Getaway World (#4)
Appointment at Bloodstar (#5)
The Purity Plot (#6)
Planet of Treachery (#7)

The series is not yet complete as far as plot line.
				joe

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1982 1027-EDT
From: David Dyer-Bennet <YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO>

Rick Schofield -- I think that Hogan has been getting better as a
writer with each book.  Stylistically, Voyage is probably his best
book.  However, I enjoyed even his very first one, and some of the
details you mention (such as his eye for human detail) have always
been present to some extent.  I think you should probably read some
more Hogan.

Tim Shimeall -- Speaking of Dream Park, I recently read Descent of
Anansi, also by Niven and Barnes.  I was very disappointed with Dream
Park.  It wasn't a bad D&D story, but it was a lousy Niven book.
Descent, however, was quite good.  Like Oath of Fealty (Niven &
Pournelle), it deals somewhat with the interaction between high-tech
people (space colony, arcology) versus the
unfortunately-still-existing real world.  However, Anansi is more a
personal story and less a political/philosophical story.  In fact, I
could almost call it relatively light, but enjoyable, space adventure
with tinges of high politics thrown in.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 82 16:30-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: landmark list location

A couple years ago, there was a poll for landmark SF works which resulted
in an excellent reading list. The list is again available, this time on
SRI-CSL in <SFL>SF.LANDMARK. To get a copy, connect to SRI-CSL via FTP,
login ANONYMOUSly, and grab the file. If you don't have access, send
a note to sf-lovers-request@sri-csl and a copy will be sent to you.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 1982 2157-EDT
From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS (Mgr DEC-20s/Dir LCSR Comp Facility)
Subject: a couple of new books that are worth reading

microreviews:  

Robert Stallman, The Beast.  One of the few truly original books I have
read in the last few years.  An excellent exploration of an alien being
and humanity.

Pat Murphy, The Shadow Hunter.  Another of this small crop of really
original books.  Juxtaposes a young Neaderthal shaman with modern
society.  The plot sounds corny, but is very impressively executed.

reviews:

I strongly endorse Roland Green's favorable review of Robert Stallman's
trilogy (The Orphan, The Captive, and The Beast).  He manages to break
new ground with each of the books.  If you are going to read all of
them, you should read the third one last.  Each of them is satisfying
when taken separately, but there is an element of mystery that the third
book resolves.  The basic idea is quite intriguing.  We have a sort of
werebeast whose human form has a separate personality.  This is one of
the most successful portrayals of an alien race that I have seen.  The
beast is clearly intelligent, at least as much so as a human.  But it
thinks differently.  It is trapped in the human world, and has to
come to grips with these rather puzzling human creatures.  But its most
complex problem is how to handle the human personalities that it takes
on when in human form.  In the first two books much of the drama comes
from its struggle to deal fairly with these personalities but meet its
own needs as well.  (Only at the end of the third book do we find out
what is really going on.  I certainly would never have guessed what the
real situation was, but it is quite convincing.)  The Beast also spends
a significant amount of time with a group of American Indians. It is
interesting to compare this book with "Altered States".  Both of them
reach a high point reached in an Indian ceremony using drugs.  To a
certain extent the book can also be viewed as an exploration of "altered
states".  However The Beast is more humane, more realistic and more
imaginative.


The Shadow Hunter is a book whose basic plot sounds corny, but which
in fact is quite impressive.  A scientist experimenting with a time
machine accidentally brings a young Neanderthal into the 20th Century.
(Fortunately he happens to have an appropriate wilderness environment
around for him to live in.)  There is no way I can say with any authority
that the portrayal of the Neanderthal way of life is accurate.  How can
anyone know?  But it is certainly convincing.  One feels that this is
really what it would be like to live in a world where the bear is a
powerful spirit which can either strengthen the hunter who kills it, or
destroy him.  To a large extent this is Rousseau's "noble savage", and
no doubt suffers to a certain extent from rose colored glasses.  Like
The Beast, it shows someone trying to live in a puzzling environment,
doing his duty to the people he comes to love and to his own nature.  It
is sufficiently realistic that Sam doesn't really succeed at this.  He
never really comes to grips with the 20th Century, and he is powerless
to help his closest friend.  But he does live "authentically", as the
existentialists would say.


------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 65
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 65
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          23-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 65

Today's Topics:

    HHGttG in Washington D.C, Moorcock & music, SF & opera, SF-Lovers as
    APA, SF book club, Wolfe's THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, Stallman's THE
    BEAST, docking in Podkayne, Ellison/Asimov/Wolfe interview, Trumbull's
    BRAINSTORM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 1982 1835-PDT
Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI
Subject: HHGttG
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

Will be on WETA (Channel 26) at 8:30 on Thursdays beginning 11/4
in the Washington DC area.  It will run for 7 weeks.  Each
episode will run 30 minutes, so they can all fit on 1 4 hour
video cassette.  The show is featured in the November issue of
THE DIAL (the national public broadcasting magazine).

Don't Panic
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed Oct 20 15:08:55 1982
From: UCBVAX.decvax!cwruecmp!magill@Berkeley

The Heavy Metal soundtrack gives credit to Michael Moorcock as cowriter
of "Veteran of the Psycic Wars".  Does anyone know of other instances of
a popular sf/fant. writer working with a popular group?

				Rich Magill
				decvax!cwruecmp!magill


------------------------------

Date:     21 Oct 82 19:42:06-EDT (Thu)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  SF & Opera, cont'd

    Recent entries on "Aniara" (including my own) provoked me into checking my
files for more info, and into discovering that some "f(r)iend" has stolen
my copy of the English translation thereof (now out of print, issued in paper
in the Equinox/Avon SF Rediscovery series -- anyone got a spare they want to
sell?).  Anyway, a check of Peter Nicholl's "Science Fiction Encyclopedia"
found the following on p. 383:
 
     Martinson, Harry Edmund (1904-78).  Swedish author and poet, member of
the Swedish Academy, Nobel Prize laureate.  A prolific writer, HM's one
contribution to sf is "Aniara" (1956; trans. Hugh MacDiarmid and E. Harley 
Schubert, 1963), a 103-canto epic poem eloquently defending humane values
against the inhumanity of technology within the story of the irreversible
voyage of a giant spaceship towards outer space.  An opera (1959) based on
the poem, composed by Karl-Birger Blomdahl, has acheived international
success.
 
    In the article on "Music", several other sf operas are noted, including:
1)  Haydn's 1777 opera "Il Mondo della Luna"
2)  Offenbach's adaptation of Verne's "Voyage to the Moon."
3)  The Janacek opera "The Makropolous Secret" (1925), based on a play by
Capek;
4)  Menotti's 1971 opera, "the Globolinks".
     The same article also deals (a bit haphazardly) with sf in rock'n'roll
lyrics.  The author is well-informed on the major stuff (e.g., Jefferson
Starship's tendencies to "borrow" from Heinlein, Wyndham, and others), but
misses a lot of lesser-known sf-related material, such as "A Time Before
This", a sf rock opera by the one-album band Julian's Treatment.  Ah, well....

------------------------------

Date:     21 Oct 82 19:29:50-EDT (Thu)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  Miscellaneous Comments on Issues 49-63 (which all arrived at once!)

1)  Hoffman (in 6:51) mentions the CoEvolution Quarterly note on APAs.  In some
ways, one could consider SFL as one, with few key differences:  there's no
limit on the membership, no cost, and no requirement that one must contribute
("minac").   However, the continuing flow of discussion and comments on 
comments on ... does make us very APA-like.

2)  On the Science Fiction Book Club:  It's generally a good buy, but you have
to remember a number of things, especially that the production values are not
nearly as good as "store-bought" editions of the same works -- the paper and
the bindings will not last anywhere near as long.  The gent who complained
about having to pay sales tax should simply move to a state where the club
doesn't have one of its mailing depots (PA is especially bad, as SFBC, QPBC,
Book of the Month, and others all have factories here), since mail order sales
can only charge you tax if they have a plant or outlet in your own state.
 
3)  Another delayed Wolfe book:  "The Castle of the Otter"  (no, it's not a
typo), being published by Ziesing Bros., has been delayed due to typographical
problems (they claim that their typesetter just got a new computer...).  Now,
they expect to be mailing it out in mid-to-late November.  For those who are
wondering, this is Gene's book about writing about the world in which The
Book of the New Sun is set; its title comes from Locus' misprint (due to
garble on the phone lines) of the title of the fourth book in the series.
 
4)  Stallman's "The Beast" is, indeed, excellent, but shouldn't be read until
you've first read the two that precede it in the series ("The Orphan" and
"The Captive").  They're going out of print rapidly, and since Stallman's
death a few months back, they may not return to print.
 
Enough for now,
Dave

------------------------------

Date:      22 Oct 82 16:37:43-EDT (Fri)
From:      Ndd.duke at UDel-Relay
Subject:   docking in Podkayne

	I don't understand the objection to taking the spin off the ship
before docking; how do you unload the ship when it's spinning? Even if
you come out along the axis of rotation, the passengers will be spinning
wrt the station. Or do you spin up the port to match with the ship and
then spin it back down to unload the folks? Seems to me that Heinlein's
method is the simplest.

					Ned

------------------------------

Date: 22-Oct-82 17:25:56-PDT (Fri)
From: ucbvax!decvax!minow@ucb-c70

Last night (Thursday, Oct 21), ARTS cable ran an interview program
with Studs Terkel and Calvin Trillan talking with Isaac Asimov,
Harlan Ellison, and Gene Wolfe.

An interesting conversation.  Two quotes:

"For the first time we have a weapon that nobody has used for thirty
years.  This gives me great hope for the human race"
		-- Harlan Ellison

Ghandi is dandy,
but liquoir is quicker.
		-- Isaac Asimov.

These programs tend to circulate around the clock and country.  You
might consider looking for it when it comes around again.

Martin Minow
decvax!minow @ berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 82 13:04-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Brainstorm

a004  2129  21 Oct 82
PM-Brainstorm,350
Natalie Wood Film Release Reported
    DURHAM, N.C. (AP) - The movie ''Brainstorm,'' whose completion was
delayed by the death of actress Natalie Wood, may be completed and
released by next summer, a state official says.
    A settlement is expected ''very shortly'' in a dispute involving the
movie's producer, director and insurance company, Bill Arnold,
director of the North Carolina Film Office, said Thursday. The film
was shot largely in North Carolina.
    Arnol said he had been in touch with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the
movie's producer, and director Douglas Trumbull.
    Trumbull believes the studio will settle its dispute with Lloyd's of
London, the movie's principal insurer, and complete filming, Arnold
said, adding that an announcement might come within two weeks.
    Principal photography was done in several North Carolina locations
last fall. The movie was to be completed on sound stages in California
last winter, but was delayed when Miss Wood died in November .
    MGM, thinking the movie could not be completed without Miss Wood,
ceased production and sought to collect $12 million in insurance from
Lloyd's.
    However, the insurer gave Trumbull $3 million to finish the picture,
with the scenes rewritten in which Miss Wood would have appeared,
officials said. Production resumed in February.
    A dispute arose between MGM and Trumbull over whether the parties
had fulfilled their obligations for the film's completion and MGM took
possession of the incomplete film, Arnold said.
    Twentieth Century Fox and ''several others'' had offered to buy the
incomplete film, and because of that interest ''MGM thinks it can
make money at the box office,'' he said.
    ''People were just so impressed with the basic footage,'' Arnold
said. ''Everybody said if they ever finished the doggone thing it
would be some kind of a classic.''
    Arnold said that if the movie is completed, it would probably be
released by next summer.
    The movie is a science-fiction thriller involving a scientist who
develops an instrument for reading minds.
    
ap-ny-10-22 0018EDT
**********

Date: 20 Oct 1982 1835-PDT
Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI
Subject: HHGttG
From:  Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

Will be on WETA (Channel 26) at 8:30 on Thursdays beginning 11/4
in the Washington DC area.  It will run for 7 weeks.  Each
episode will run 30 minutes, so they can all fit on 1 4 hour
video cassette.  The show is featured in the November issue of
THE DIAL (the national public broadcasting magazine).

Don't Panic
Mike
Date: Wed Oct 20 15:08:55 1982
From: UCBVAX.decvax!cwruecmp!magill@Berkeley
	id A05547; 20-Oct-82 17:17:11-PDT (Wed)

The Heavy Metal soundtrack gives credit to Michael Moorcock as cowriter
of "Veteran of the Psycic Wars".  Does anyone know of other instances of
a popular sf/fant. writer working with a popular group?

				Rich Magill
				decvax!cwruecmp!magill


Date:     21 Oct 82 19:42:06-EDT (Thu)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  SF & Opera, cont'd

    Recent entries on "Aniara" (including my own) provoked me into checking my
files for more info, and into discovering that some "f(r)iend" has stolen
my copy of the English translation thereof (now out of print, issued in paper
in the Equinox/Avon SF Rediscovery series -- anyone got a spare they want to
sell?).  Anyway, a check of Peter Nicholl's "Science Fiction Encyclopedia"
found the following on p. 383:
 
     Martinson, Harry Edmund (1904-78).  Swedish author and poet, member of
the Swedish Academy, Nobel Prize laureate.  A prolific writer, HM's one
contribution to sf is "Aniara" (1956; trans. Hugh MacDiarmid and E. Harley 
Schubert, 1963), a 103-canto epic poem eloquently defending humane values
against the inhumanity of technology within the story of the irreversible
voyage of a giant spaceship towards outer space.  An opera (1959) based on
the poem, composed by Karl-Birger Blomdahl, has acheived international
success.
 
    In the article on "Music", several other sf operas are noted, including:
1)  Haydn's 1777 opera "Il Mondo della Luna"
2)  Offenbach's adaptation of Verne's "Voyage to the Moon."
3)  The Janacek opera "The Makropolous Secret" (1925), based on a play by
Capek;
4)  Menotti's 1971 opera, "the Globolinks".
     The same article also deals (a bit haphazardly) with sf in rock'n'roll
lyrics.  The author is well-informed on the major stuff (e.g., Jefferson
Starship's tendencies to "borrow" from Heinlein, Wyndham, and others), but
misses a lot of lesser-known sf-related material, such as "A Time Before
This", a sf rock opera by the one-album band Julian's Treatment.  Ah, well....

Date:     21 Oct 82 19:29:50-EDT (Thu)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  Miscellaneous Comments on Issues 49-63 (which all arrived at once!)

1)  Hoffman (in 6:51) mentions the CoEvolution Quarterly note on APAs.  In some
ways, one could consider SFL as one, with few key differences:  there's no
limit on the membership, no cost, and no requirement that one must contribute
("minac").   However, the continuing flow of discussion and comments on 
comments on ... does make us very APA-like.

2)  On the Science Fiction Book Club:  It's generally a good buy, but you have
to remember a number of things, especially that the production values are not
nearly as good as "store-bought" editions of the same works -- the paper and
the bindings will not last anywhere near as long.  The gent who complained
about having to pay sales tax should simply move to a state where the club
doesn't have one of its mailing depots (PA is especially bad, as SFBC, QPBC,
Book of the Month, and others all have factories here), since mail order sales
can only charge you tax if they have a plant or outlet in your own state.
 
3)  Another delayed Wolfe book:  "The Castle of the Otter"  (no, it's not a
typo), being published by Ziesing Bros., has been delayed due to typographical
problems (they claim that their typesetter just got a new computer...).  Now,
they expect to be mailing it out in mid-to-late November.  For those who are
wondering, this is Gene's book about writing about the world in which The
Book of the New Sun is set; its title comes from Locus' misprint (due to
garble on the phone lines) of the title of the fourth book in the series.
 
4)  Stallman's "The Beast" is, indeed, excellent, but shouldn't be read until
you've first read the two that precede it in the series ("The Orphan" and
"The Captive").  They're going out of print rapidly, and since Stallman's
death a few months back, they may not return to print.
 
Enough for now,
Dave

Date: 22 Oct 82 13:04-PDT
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Brainstorm

a004  2129  21 Oct 82
PM-Brainstorm,350
Natalie Wood Film Release Reported
    DURHAM, N.C. (AP) - The movie ''Brainstorm,'' whose completion was
delayed by the death of actress Natalie Wood, may be completed and
released by next summer, a state official says.
    A settlement is expected ''very shortly'' in a dispute involving the
movie's producer, director and insurance company, Bill Arnold,
director of the North Carolina Film Office, said Thursday. The film
was shot largely in North Carolina.
    Arnol said he had been in touch with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the
movie's producer, and director Douglas Trumbull.
    Trumbull believes the studio will settle its dispute with Lloyd's of
London, the movie's principal insurer, and complete filming, Arnold
said, adding that an announcement might come within two weeks.
    Principal photography was done in several North Carolina locations
last fall. The movie was to be completed on sound stages in California
last winter, but was delayed when Miss Wood died in November .
    MGM, thinking the movie could not be completed without Miss Wood,
ceased production and sought to collect $12 million in insurance from
Lloyd's.
    However, the insurer gave Trumbull $3 million to finish the picture,
with the scenes rewritten in which Miss Wood would have appeared,
officials said. Production resumed in February.
    A dispute arose between MGM and Trumbull over whether the parties
had fulfilled their obligations for the film's completion and MGM took
possession of the incomplete film, Arnold said.
    Twentieth Century Fox and ''several others'' had offered to buy the
incomplete film, and because of that interest ''MGM thinks it can
make money at the box office,'' he said.
    ''People were just so impressed with the basic footage,'' Arnold
said. ''Everybody said if they ever finished the doggone thing it
would be some kind of a classic.''
    Arnold said that if the movie is completed, it would probably be
released by next summer.
    The movie is a science-fiction thriller involving a scientist who
develops an instrument for reading minds.
    
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 66
*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 66
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          26-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:
   Authors - Docking in PODKAYNE, Moorcock & music, Bastable
   Queries - computer-written story, SF opera, DEC WARS, Worm Wars game
   T.V.    - HHGttG in Los Angeles and Chicago
   Movies  - Revenge of the Jedi
   Misc    - Filksongs from Usenet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1982 10:49:33-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: docking in PODKAYNE

   My initial argument about the energy inefficiencies of this method
is probably irrelevant in view of the fact that the ship somehow has
energy to burn (it takes high-speed trajectories between planets,
rather than Hohmann orbits), but there is a more important factor:
given RAH's description of the first-class passengers, how do you
think they would like being weightless for several hours (the time
necessary for either boarding or debarking)? Also, most of the
[lower]-deck people have kids and many have babies---remember how
chaotic it was in the storm shelters when they had to shut down the
spin just for a few minutes?  Granted, RAH assumes (by my
recollection) that Phobos will be effectively zero-gee, although he
doesn't deal with (for instance) the difficulty of inspecting the
contents of a well-packed suitcase when said contents have no
motivation to stay put. I simply don't think he thought this through
(or any of the rest of this book, for that matter) very well.
   I've twice been through the debarkation procedures of a major ocean
liner (to which RAH makes many analogies which seem valid to me) and
the increase in chaos caused by attempting to do anything in zero-gee
in a ship designed for centrifugal gravitation is likely to be
immense.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1982 09:47 EDT
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: re: Michael Moorcock  

Moorcock is the only writer I can think of who is extensively involved
in popular music.  As well as "Veteran of the Psychic Wars", he has
worked with the British group Hawkwind (sometimes called The Hawkwind
Orchestra), and may have been a member of a band called Deep Fix.

Moorcock wrote a book called "The Time of the Hawklords" around
himself and Hawkwind.  I don't remember who published it, but the
cover art and blurb (like so many) had little relation to the book.
(The art consisted mainly a distorted picture of some singers and a
spaceship.  I don't remember any spaceship in the book.)  The central
characters are the members of the band, while Moorcock appears in a
more peripheral role as The Acid Sorcerer and a member of a band
called Deep Fix.

References to Hawkwind, besides "The Time of the Hawklords", occur in
the Jerry Cornelius series and more obscurely in "The Dancers at the
End of Time" series.  Jerry Cornelius is a member of band called Deep
Fixx or Deep Fix (the first may be a typo) in some of books of the
tetralogy.  It is described as being much like Pink Floyd.

There are also references to Hawkwind and Deep Fix(x) in the movie
"The Last Days of Man on Earth", an adaptation of "The Final
Programme" made about 1977.

Does any one out there know of a book called the Lives and Times of
Jerry Cornelius?  I have heard rumors, and it was listed in Books in
Print for about a year, but whenever I tried to order it, the
publisher (I don't recall who) replied that it was not yet published.
The most detailed reply I got (mid 1981) was that it would be
"published soon".

For all you time voyagers out there, there is a new Oswald Bastable
book just out.  "The Steel Tsar" (DAW, $2.25) puts Bastable in a world
where the Bolshevik revolution never occured.

					Chris Heiny

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1982 1259-PDT
From: GUNS at SRI-KL
Subject: identification of a "computer written" story
cc: guns at SRI-KL

A friend is trying to find a story for use in a paper.

Can anyone identify the title or author of a fairly recent novel or
short story at the end of which is a short computer-generated story.
(At least the claim was that it was computer generated.)  The story
describes the computer's role in society in the first person.  James
Hogan seemed the obvious possibility, but he could not find it there. 

Please respond to Guns@sri-kl or to Dave Kolbus at SRI (415-859-2802 or
SRI, Room IS207, Menlo Park by "snailmail".)

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 23 October 1982  22:23-EDT
From: Mike Blackwell <Blackwell at CMU-20C>
Subject: SF Rock

Another good example that I can think of is "2112" by Rush. It's the
entire first side of the 2112 LP, and is based on one of Anne Rand's
novels (Atlas Shruged, maybe?). Very good.

WE HAVE ASSUMED CONTROL...	-mike-

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1982 1244-PDT
Subject: Search for an old item - Star Wars parody
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)

Back when SW first came out, and SFL had all that discussion on
it, someone submitted an item which was a parody of the scene
where Princess Leia transmits the Death Star plans to the rebels.
It was written with all the data communications jargon and
problems we all know and love (koff!); things about parity
errors, changing data speeds, etc.  Does anyone have that
on-line?  If so, please mail me a copy.  If anyone knows which
back issue of SFLovers it was in, I'd appreciate a pointer to the
volume & number.

Thanks much!

Will Martin

[There is something called DEC WARS. It is available on SRI-CSL in
<SFL>DECWARS.;1. --ed.]

------------------------------

Date: 24-Oct-82 12:24-PDT
From: DAUL at OFFICE  
Subject: WORM WARS (Computer generated graphics?)

Last night I saw a commercial for a new Atari game cartridge call WORM
WARS.  The animation of the add looked like it was done by the same
folks that did TRON.  Even in black and white it look very impressive
of the TV.  Does anyone know who.how this add was done?  --Bi<<

------------------------------

Date:      24 Oct 82 23:11:33-PST (Sun)
From:      Iglesias.UCI at Rand-Relay
Subject:   HHGttG

The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy will be on in the Los Angeles area
on channel 28 (KCET) on Saturday at 10pm.  The original radio series will
be on KCRW 89.9 FM starting Friday November 5 at 930pm.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 1982 16:20:55-EST
From: Christopher A Kent <cak@Purdue>
Subject: At last, HHGTTG comes to Chicago

The first episode of the TV version of the Hitchiker's Guide to the
Galaxy will air on WTTW, Channel 11, this Sunday (Oct 31) at 10PM CST.
The time switch happens this weekend, so that makes it 11PM EST for
those of us in Indiana who get WTTW by cable (and means that Dr. Who
won't be on till Midnite....ugh).

Cheers,
chris

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 1982 1434-EDT
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

While driving down Memorial Drive a few nights ago, i tuned into the NPR
adaptation of Star Wars just in time to hear Obi-Wan tell Luke::
"Revenge is not the way of the Jedi.  Sucombing to such base emotions leads
to the dark side of the force".

Hmmm.

tom galloway

------------------------------

Date:     26 Oct 82 14:31:07-EDT (Tue)
From:     Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) <wmartin@BRL>
Subject:  Filksongs

Here are some filksongs from USENET:


0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  !ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779  #SF Filksong Collection:  No. 1 ofEOOH ***
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 82 23:23:49 EST
From: esquire!harpo!ihps3!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779
Subject: SF Filksong Collection:  No. 1 of ?
Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers


Beginning with this contribution, and depending on the response,
I plan to distribute a sampling of the parody songs put on by the
Circle of Janus SF Club of Indianapolis, IN. Tonight's selection
is from the 1980 play, UP THE CREEK, done
in honor of Philip Jose Farmer, the Guest of Honor that year.


[To the tune of Camelot]

(deleted)

--Arlan Andrews, Indy

******

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Oct  !ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779  #SF Filk No. 2 of many...
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 82 00:04:32 EST
From: esquire!cmcl2!floyd!harpo!ihps3!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779
Subject: SF Filk No. 2 of many...
Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers




(deleted)
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 67
*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 67
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          28-Oct-82	       Volume 6 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:
   Authors - Moorcock & Cornelius & Steel Tsar, Pangborn's A MIRROR FOR
	     OBSERVERS
   T.V.    - Dr. Who in Mass., L.A.?
   Movies  - Revenge not befitting a Jedi?
   Misc    - SF Book club satisfaction, CMU in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1982  7:34:43 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Andrew Malis <malis at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Moorcock's "Jerry Cornelius"

I own a copy of Moorcock's "The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius."
It is a British paperback, published by Quartet Books, 27 Goodge St.,
London W1P 1FD, dated 1976.  It was also published in hardcover by
Alison and Busby Ltd.  The ISBN is 0 704 31264 6.

The book itself is a compilation of Cornelius stories from all
sorts of magazines, from Quark to Penthouse, and from other
SF anthologies, and were all originally published between 1969
and 1974.  It is quite good, and well worth buying if you are
a Cornelius fan.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1982 13:03 PDT
From: Fusco.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #66

"The Cornelius Chronicles" was published over a year ago.  I tried to
get through it, but found it slow, tedious and dull.  It is an
enormous volume and the first of Moorcock's works that I attempted to
read.  Has anyone waded completely through this book, and what did you
think?

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1982 1624-MDT
From: Evelyn Mathey <MATHEY at SANDIA>
Subject: MOORCOCK

Someone recently mentioned 'The Steel Tsar'.  Moorcock fans might be
interested to know that one of the current offerings from the Science
Fiction Book Club is 'The Nomad of Time' containing: 'The Warlord of
the Air', 'The Land Leviathan', and 'The Steel Tsar'.  Cost is $5.98
plus handling $1.39.

I have recieved extremely good service from sfbc.  When I wrote once
and told them a book I had ordered was a real stinker and not up to
their standards, they sent me a box to return the book in and credited
my acount.  Pretty good since I had ordered the book.  I have also
ordered books for friends.  I asked if they could mail direct to my
friend and bill me for the extra handling.  They sent a card to me and
my friend confirming the order, mailed direct to her and didn't charge
me a cent more than when I ordered the same book for myself - and I'm
sure it cost them more in handling since she is not on their mailing
list.  I have never had any problems with billing etc.  One of the
things I like is that you send back a piece of paper if you don't want
a book.  Many book clubs always send the books and you are stuck
paying the postage to send back something you don't want.  I failed to
mention on the 'stinker' book above, they paid postage for the return
too.

Am I the only person to remember Edgar Pangborn's 'A Mirror for
Observers'?  I haven't noticed it on anybody's favorites list.  While
somewhat dated I feel this book was well written and significant to
the growth of SF.  Any comments?

-- Evelyn

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1982 1533-EDT
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-20C>
Subject: CMU in SF

December 1982 /Analog/, p. 74, the story "My Christmas on New Hanford"
by Thomas R. Dulski:

"When I graduated from Carnegie-Mellon I took a job with an engineering
company..."

This is the first mention I have ever seen in SF of a graduate from CMU
as one of the characters (they are usually from Cal Tech or MIT); I don't
think I've seen mention of a "Carnegie Tech" person in older SF, although
I do recall one comic book in which "Carnegie Tech" is called upon to
have its computers form part of some network computing effort.  So, by
some metric, CMU has "made it" to a new level of recognition.

The author,according to the biography on p.82, is a native of Pgh. with
a degree in chemistry from Pitt.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1982 0959-PDT
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

    Date: 26 Oct 1982 1434-EDT
    From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
    Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

    While driving down Memorial Drive a few nights ago, i tuned into the NPR
    adaptation of Star Wars just in time to hear Obi-Wan tell Luke::
    "Revenge is not the way of the Jedi.  Sucombing to such base emotions leads
    to the dark side of the force".

    Hmmm.

    tom galloway

When confronted by this exact question at Octocon (in Santa Rosa CA,
just a few miles from the LucasFilm HQ), one of the LucasFilm guys
said that he thought the title was especially appropriate with regards
to the movie plot.

A few other bits of SW trivia (according to the LucasFilm folk): RotJ
will be the last SW film for Hamill, Fisher, and Ford (as far as
anyone knows, since their next possible roles would be in #7, about 9
years from now) and John Williams will be doing the score for RotJ.
His only other comment was that all the loose ends from the first two
(the "other" and Luke's Dad and whatever else) will be cleared up in
RotJ.  --Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 27 October 1982  16:20-PDT
From: DOLATA at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: Revenge of the Jedi

Excellent point!  The title 'Revenge of the Jedi' has driven me up a wall
ever since I first heard it.  UNLESS IT IS THE REVENGE OF THE DARK SIDE,
I.E. DARTH VADER WINS!!!!  ( I have a sneaking fondness for him )

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 1982 0709-EDT
From: Dan Tappan <Tappan at BBNG>
Subject: HGTTG in Massachusetts

The first episode of HGTTG is on WGBH (channel 2) Sat 10/30
at 7:30. It's also on somewhat later that night on a couple
other public channels.

------------------------------

Date: 27 OCT 1982 2055-EDT
From: JDOS at MIT-AI (John Paul McNamee)
Subject: Dr. Who

Does any station in Los Angeles carry Dr. Who?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 68
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 Oct 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 68
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest              Sunday, 31 Oct 1982           Volume 6 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:
    Authors - Pangborn
    Movies  - Revenge of the Jedi, Star Trek
    T.V.    - One hour TWILIGHT ZONE episodes return to television!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst
Date: 29-Oct-82 15:03:41 EDT
Subject: Pangborn

Yes, Evelyn, there are other Pangborn fans out here.  My problem is
knowing just what to say about him.  He is certainly one of the finest
American SF writers, but he comes out poorly next to the
Heinlein/Niven/Asimov axis because of his concentration on language
rather than concept.  His partrayal of an America fallen into
ignorance rings truer than any other I've seen, even moreso now that I
live closer to New England than Chicago.

"A Mirror for Observers" is not his best book, and I've done more than
a little headscratchjing trying to figure where it fits into the rest
of his (usually linked) after-the-fall yarns.  Is this THE Abraham?
Somehow I doubt it, since I know (from experience) the temptation a
writer feels to treat different faces of the same concept in different
stories.

Much better, I think, is "The Judgement of Eve;" better, perhaops,
than "Davy" wehich seems to be everyone else's favorite.  I love it
beyond comprehemption, as it were.

Aside from that, I have no idea what else to say about Edgar Pangborn.

I'm very glad someone brought him up, however.

--Jeff Duntemann  (DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1982 14:29:55-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: appropriateness of RotJ title

   What was said on the NPR broadcast is irrelevant; Lucas has said
repeatedly that he doesn't consider himself bound by anything outside
of the films themselves.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1982 12:40:29-PDT
From: CSVAX.upstill@Berkeley
Subject: Revenge (?) of the Jedi



   I hate to invoke bad memories, but wasn't there some concept in high
school English class called, oh yes, "irony"??  Since the Jedi are such
a Zen-like order, I wouldn't be at all surprised if their version of
'revenge' involved something like playing off the Dark forces in some
poetically just way, without any violent intervention at all.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 1982 18:38 PDT
From: Wedekind.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Revenge not befitting a Jedi?

"Revenge is not the way of the Jedi.  Sucombing to such base emotions leads
    to the dark side of the force".


        This suggests to me that some Jedi will yield to the urge for
revenge and end up in the grip of the dark side of the force.  (Just a
wild guess).

                                Jerry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 82 17:39:27 EDT  (Tue)
From: Speaker-To-Animals <speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: ST-TWOK

Remember the episode with Sargon, the intelligence in the white sphere?
In that one, Spock's mind was transferred into the sphere, then into
Nurse Chapel's brain, where she carried it around until they got
Spock's body back.)

                                          ...phil

        Clever, however remember that Spock was perfectly cognizant in
        his old body AFTER touching McCoy.  Spock can't be in two
        places at the same time so he probably did not take up a new
        residence there.

        Could the genesis effect have revived Spock's body, even if
        his consciousness wasn't in it?  Maybe, but I somehow can't
        believe that 'lingering' traces of the effect would magically
        restore him.  I'm surprised the photon torpedo, in which he
        was entombed, even survived the impact.  It should have been
        vaporized, along with a sizable portion of the planet's surface.

        Let's face it folks...the man's as dead as the proverbial
        doornail.  But what about Uhura?

                                        - Speaker
                                        speaker.Umcp-Cs@Udel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 29 Oct 1982 23:11-PDT
Subject: One hour TWILIGHT ZONE episodes return to television!
From: lauren at RAND-UNIX

Much to my surprise, WGN-TV (channel 9, Chicago) has apparently begun
showing the rare one hour "Twilight Zone" episodes!  These shows
are all from the fourth season (January - May 1963).  While not among
the best shows, they *are* unique and are definitely worth watching.
As far as I know, one hour episodes have not been shown in any
syndication market for many, many years.

These TZ episodes seem to be running at 10:30PM Pacific Time on
Friday nights.  I don't know how long WGN will be running one hour
episodes, but they seem to have one hour time slots allocated for
at least the next month.

WGN is available on many cable systems via RCA SATCOM IIIR.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 69
*** EOOH ***
Date: 2 Nov 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 69
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest              Tuesday, 2 Nov 1982           Volume 6 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:
    Authors - Moorcock
    T.V.    - HHGttG in Philly, N.Y, Conn, etc.
    Movies  - Star Trek, Jedi
    Humor   - Sub-Ethernet from Digital
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 1982 1745-PST
Subject: Moorcock
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

I have long felt Moorcock to be mostly empty of interesting ideas in his
pursuit of his "new wave" ego trips.  I surprised myself when I picked up a
book of his called \The Swords Trilogy/ recently, and surprised myself even
more when I read it all (400 pages) and enjoyed it.  It is rather good Swords
and Sorcery stuff with a believable hero, an interesting set of quests, and a 
rather neat tie-up-the-strings ending.  It also has a particularly believable
bit where Moorcock brings in some heros from previous books to solve a
difficult problem.  A fine airplane read (The Swords Trilogy, Berkley
medallion, 1977, ISBN 0-425-03468-2)


        Mike <Leavitt at USC-ISI>

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 82 15:39:15-EDT (Thu)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: HHGttG @ Phila

Philly fans of Zaphod should know that the BBC-TV version will be running on 
our local PBS affiliate (Channel 12, WHYY-tv), beginning on Tuesday, Nov. 9, at
10:00 P.M. EST, and continuing on Tuesdays (same time, station, &c) thereafter.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 1982 1700-EST
From: Margot <Flowers at YALE>
Subject: Hitch Hiking in NY & Conn

Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy starts on Thu, Nov 4, 8:00pm on Channel 13 in
New York, repeating on Sunday, 10:30pm.

It started on Sat, October 80, 11:00pm on Channel 24/49/65 on Connecticut
Public TV.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 1982 0803-PST
From: Brent Hailpern <CSL.SSO.BTH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #67

HGTTG premiers in New York on Wednesday, Nov. 3 - channel 13

------------------------------

Date:  1 Nov 1982 2246-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Star Trek, the command console

        I have come to the conclusion that the command console prefix code
feature was added sometime between the M5 incident ("The Ultimate Computer")
and "The Wrath of Kahn".

        I just saw a repeat of "The Doomsday Machine", where Kirk stays on the
crippled Constellation until the last second, steering it down the planet
eaters throat.

        If the command console prefix existed at that point in time, they
should have been able to steer the ship by remote control.  But, then again,
that wouldn't be exciting enough.

(P.S.  That brings up another point.  Cmmdr. Decker dies in an attempt to
destroy the thing, and his son, Will Decker is "absorbed" by V'ger in "Star
Trek: The Motion Picture."  What will the next Star Trek movie be?  Why, "The
Revenge of Mrs. Decker", of course.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 1982 12:05:32 CST (Monday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: RotJ

Obviously, revenge would only be appropriate if the Jedi in question had/was 
succombed/ing to the dark side of the force. How many Jedi Knights do we know 
who have this problem?

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 2 November 1982 21:32-EDT
From: Eirikur Hallgrimsson (RDVAX::Eiirkur at DEC) at MIT-AI
Subject: Humor: Sub-Ethernet from Digital


                  Digital Responds to Hyper-Ethernet

  TEWKSBURY, MA, April 1, 2010 -- Digital Equipment announced today
  it's new DECnet Phase XVIII Architecture.  In response to recent
  Xerox and Wang improvements to Ethernet that provide people and
  facility transportation across inter-node links, DEC's latest DECnet
  provides these capabilities as well as providing for the creation of
  virtual facilities and even countries.  These capabilities are
  provided by breakthroughs in communications technology that actually
  uses the Ether as a communications media.  Through the use of a new
  dedicated NANO-PDP-11/E99 gateway processor system, ETHERGATE,
  DECnet users can access anywhere in the Ethereal Plane.

  This development obsoletes teleconferencing, since meeting groups
  can create their own common conference rooms and cafeterias, thus
  resolving space, travel and dining problems.  There may be a few
  bugs left, as some of the dissenting DECnet Review Group members
  have not been seen since the last meeting held in such a virtual
  conference facility.

  This breakthrough was brought about by a team effort ofthe
  Distributed Systems' Software and Hardware engineering teams in a
  effort to improve on their Tewksbury, Massachusetts facility.  In a
  compromise decision, Distributed Systems will maintain an ETHERGATE
  in TWOOO, but it will connect directly to their new home somewhere
  in the Shire of their newly defined Middle Earth reality.  Despite
  some difficulties, the scenery, windows, tax breaks, pool and
  racquetball courts made the relocation go quite smoothly.
  Engineering Network topology will not change, as all forwarding will
  be done by the TWOOO Ethereal Plane Router residing in the crater at
  the former building site.

  Utility packages such as Ethereal Person Transfer (EPT) and Ethereal
  Facility Transfer (EFT) provide appropriate capabilities for casual
  users.  Sophisticated users can create ($CREATE), access ($OPEN),
  and delete ($NUKE) ethereal entities transparently from high level
  languages using the Ethereal Management System (EMS) package and the
  Ethereal Access Protocol (EAP).  An ETHERTRIEVE utility for easy
  interactive use will be available shortly.

  DECnet Phase XVIII follows on the success of the Phase XVI ability
  to access everyone's Digital Professional wrist watch computer
  system.  This lead to the current Phase XVII architecture, which has
  routing capabilities that allow direct communications with the
  entire Earth population's Atari home video games.

  Distributed Systems architects are hard at work on the next phase of
  DECnet that will include multi-plane existence network management
  (using the NIECE protocol) and galaxy level routing using 64K bit
  addresses.

  Digital will continue to support it's Gateway products into the
  Prime Material Plane.  These products include an IBM ANA
  (Acronym-based Network Architecture) Gateway, the TOLKIEN product
  that allows control of all ring based networks, and our
  Mega-broad-jump-band hardware which leaps past Wang's products in
  the hype weary business marketplace.



From our Engineering Net.  (You can tell that they're really working on on it.
Racquetball courts indeed!)

                Enjoy,

                        Eirikur

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #70
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 1982 8:49PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #70
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest             Wednesday, 3 Nov 1982          Volume 6 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
Review of 2010: Odyessey Two
Bestsellers
correction and ogre
Re:  ST-TWOK
Submissions from sub-distribution
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1982 at 0933-CST
From: Clyde W. Hoover <clyde@UTEXAS-11>
Subject: Review of 2010: Odyessey Two


        Potential spoiler - though I've tried not to get that detailed.

Review of 2010: Odyssey Two

NANO-REVIEW:  Execllent.

        "2010" has lived up to its predecessor very well.  I admit having more 
that a few trepidations about a sequel to "2001: A Space Odyssey", feeling that
how could any rational follow-up be written to that story's enigmatic ending.

        Not to worry - Clarke is back in his element with this book.  His
attention to the details of space travel and spacecraft, without the sometimes
excessiveness of "The Fountains of Paradise", help make "2010" a very readable
story.

        There is an inconsistancy between the book and movie versions of
"2001", which Clarke acknowledges, choosing the movie version as his base for
"2010".  This is a reasonable choice, since more people undoubtedly saw the
movie than read the book.

        The story starts several years after the mysterious loss of Discovery 
at Jupiter.  The central character throughout the book is Dr. Heywood Floyd, 
who lost his job in the scandal that followed the ill-fated Discovery mission.
The spaceship that returns to Jupiter (with Dr. Floyd aboard) is a Soviet 
craft, the Leonov, which finds itself racing a Chinese spacecraft to reach
Discovery first.

        In this volume we learn the fate of Starchild/Bowman,
- suffice it to say he is not quite human any more.

        We also meet creator of HAL - a first class AI hacker if there ever was
one. His job is to restart HAL, a process that gets very complicated (I won't
spoil it here).

        Clarke integrates very well all the recently discovered data about the 
Jovian system.  He also has peppered this volume with science-fiction 'in' 
jokes (such as having the movie 'Alien' in the Leonov's library).

        In all, a fine book and the sequel that I'm sure many (including
myself) thought could not (and probably should not) be done.  Well worth
reading (maybe not at $14.95 for the hardback, but I could not resist).

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1982 1533-EST
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: Bestsellers

This week's Time has Foundation's Edge listed as #3 and Life, the Universe and
Everything as #8 on their fiction bestseller list.  tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 1982 0630-PST
From: Brent Hailpern <CSL.SSO.BTH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: correction and ogre

A correction to my previous message:  HGTTG will premier in NYC at 8pm,
Thursday, Nov. 4 on channel 13.

--------------------------

mini review of "Ogre, ogre" by P. Anthony.

"Ogre, Ogre" is the fifth book in the Xanth trilogy.  For those of you who have
not read the previous books, Xanth is a land of fantasy and magic that looks
much like Florida.  The best known features of the series are (1) the puns -
every object in Xanth is magical so "horseflies" are little tiny horses that
fly, etc. - and (2) his "low" regard for those of the female persuasion.

The new book tells of the exploits of Smash Ogre, son of Crush and the curse
fiend.  Smash goes to the magicians Humphrey to ask his Question.  Ogres are
stupid, so Smash doesn't know what question to ask.  The magician, whose talent
is to know everything, knows the question and sends Smash on a journey to
discover the Answer.

The book is not as good as the first three in the series.  The puns are all
there, but he has used up the easy ones in the other books; hence, he is
resorting to farther fetched situations to make the puns.  Women are portrayed
slightly better in this book than in the previous four, but that would not be
too hard after characters like "Chameleon" whose beauty cycled monthly from
ravishing to ugly and whose IQ was inversely proportional to her looks, and
Princess Irene who manages to accidently show all of her anatomy to interested
males during hazardous journeys.

The one bright point of the book was the incorporations of video games into
Xanth.  I won't tell you how it is done, but it is a cute idea.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 82 15:19:12 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  ST-TWOK

        From: Speaker-To-Animals <speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>

                Remember the episode with Sargon, the intelligence in
                the white sphere? In that one, Spock's mind was
                transferred into the sphere . . .
                                                  ...phil

        Clever, however remember that Spock was perfectly cognizant in
        his old body AFTER touching McCoy.  Spock can't be in two
        places at the same time . . .
                                                - Speaker

How do you know that? Maybe he dumped the Vulcan half of his personality into
McCoy's subconscious and left his Human half (which he's always been trying to
get rid of anyway) in his own body, to be destroyed along with his body.

------------------------------

Date: 3 November 1982 18:31 est
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Submissions from sub-distribution


Date:  2 November 1982 08:36 mst From:  Senft.Multics Subject:  SW parody
Reply-to: PCO-Multics%Senft.Multics -at MIT-Multics cc:  Senft.Multics
(outgoing.sv) Acknowledge-To:  Senft.Multics

I got this from the net about two years ago. Unfortunately, i do not recall the
issue or date.



Shade and Sweet water to you,

Scene:
             The Tatoine (sic) 4, in a restricted zone to pick
             up the Death Star tapes.  An Imperial Cruiser is
             closing in.

Captain Antilles:
             Princess, we must hurry, the cruiser is closing!

Princess Leia:
             Just a minute I'm getting the settings on the
             recorder right.

Imperial Storm Trooper:
             This is the destroyer Fubar, you are in restricted
             zone. Please standby for boarding.

Captain Antilles:
             We are a diplomatic flight.  You have no right to
             detain us.  (aside) Hurry!

Princess Leia:
             Now then, they're transmitting at 9600, with no
             parity, and xmit request.  (changes settings).
             There, that should do it.

Rebel:
             Starting Transmission.

Princess Leia:
             Hang on, I'm getting parity errors on about half
             the letters.

Rebel:
             What is the parity set to?

Princess Leia:
             It's disabled.

Rebel:
             No It has to be odd.

Imperial Storm Trooper:
             Boarding in two minutes.

Princess Leia:
             There, try again.

(Buzzing is heard)

Princess Leia:
             No Good, The line isn't good enough for 9600.
             Move to 1200.

Captain Antilles:
             We don't have time!

Princess Leia:
             This is of vital importance to the rebel forces.
             Make time!

Captain Antilles:
             This is a non-military ship. Go Away!

Princess Leia:
             Still Garbled. What program are you using?

Rebel:
             FTP, of course.

Princess Leia:
             FTP?!!  I'm using TELENET.  Can't you use TELENET
             too?

Rebel:
             Which version?  All I have is 3.2.

Princess Leia:
             Damn, all I have is 2.0.....



           In space, no one can hear you dump.....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************
Date: 7 Nov 1982 2227-PDT
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 71
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 7 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:
    SF books   - Yurik's RICHARD A.
    SF authors - Harlan Ellison lecture
    SF movies   - Star Wars parody, Star Trek, Revenge of the Jedi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1982 0929-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-20C>
Subject: "Richard A."


Sol Yurik's latest novel, "Richard A." definitely falls within the
science fiction spectrum. Richard A. is a wild-talent phone freak who
devises a system to tap conversations on selected phones and then tap
automatically the persons called by his subjects. He does this for
fun, but unwittingly stumbles across webs of intrigue surrounding the
Cuban Missile Crisis (the book is set in the early 60's).

Ultimately, he discovers that his role is not so accidental, and he
finds himself involved in a millenia-old struggle between two groups
manipulating history: a group of Taoists and a group of Kabbalists.

Definitely worth reading, though it leaves you a bit paranoid.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1982 1516-EST
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: Harlan Ellison lecture

Ellison will be lecturing on Monday November 29th at the Harvard Law
Forum.  8PM, in the Ames Courtroom, Austen Hall, Harvard Law School.
It's open to the public, and there will be a charge of at most $2.50,
possibly less.

tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 1982 0907-EST
From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-OZ
Subject: SW Parody

That looks suspiciously like something I put on about 1.5 years ago,
+/- enhancements along the way.

BTW, if Spock really did do a core dump to McCoy, he'd better look out
for head crashes...

                                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 82 14:17:19 EST  (Sat)
From: Speaker-To-Animals <speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  ST-TWOK

                Clever, however remember that Spock was perfectly
                cognizant in his old body AFTER touching McCoy.  Spock
                can't be in two places at the same time . . .
                                                        - Speaker

        How do you know that? Maybe he dumped the Vulcan half of his
        personality into McCoy's subconscious and left his Human half
        (which he's always been trying to get rid of anyway) in his
	own body, to be destroyed along with his body.

Hey, now that's an elegant solution.  Problem is that the Vulcan side 
that's left over is really not Spock.  The internal conflict between 
the two sides of his personality are what made Spock such an
intriguing character.

Besides, Spock wasn't in contact with McCoy long enough even for the 
'Vulcan Mind Meld', much less a complete seperation and transfer of
his consciousness.

                                                - Speaker
                                                speaker.Umcp-Cs@Udel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 30 October 1982  03:01-EDT (Saturday)
From: Mijjil (Matthew Jody Lecin) <LECIN at RUTGERS>
Subject: RotJ: anyone besides me think

that it means just because the Jedi would not WANT revenge doesn't 
mean they'll get some anyway?

{m}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #72
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, November 9, 1982 1:07AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #72
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 9 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
    SF books  - Donaldson's WHITE GOLD WIELDER, Moorcock's "SWORDS" Trilogy
    SF movies - Star Trek and Spock/McCoy core dumping
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7-Nov-82 12:58:25-PST (Sun)
From: research!sjb@Berkeley
Subject: White Gold Wielder

Does anyone have a projected release date for White Gold Wielder, book
three in The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant?  I have heard both
December of this year and April, 1983.  Also, does anyone know when
The One Tree will be out in paperback?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 82 16:28:08-EST (Mon)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Moorcock "Swords" Trilogy

     Actually, there is a second trilogy which continues the
adventures of the major characters.  Though not quite as good as the
first three, the books ("The Oak and the Ram", "The Bull and the
Spear," and "The Sword and the Stallion", though they may not be in
that order) are still worth checking out if you liked the first three.

------------------------------

Date: 7 November 1982  05:30-EST (Sunday)
From: The One and Only Mijjil {Matthew J Lecin} <LECIN at RU-GREEN>
Subject: ST-TWOK, image dump Spock => McCoy
Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers

I would like to believe that if Spock did a core dump into McCoy, and 
that he successfully seperated his Vulcan logical self, and his human
emotional self, and all that was left in the Spock Body was the HUMAN
self when he was dying, that he would have told James Tiberius Kirk
that he LOVED him, not that he was merely "I am, and always will be,
your friend"...

Spock had said that earlier, when fully composed in his normal logical
state - especially right after his meditation.  I think a purely HUMAN
Spock would have gone much further...

Another note: what about that gorgeous mosasic IDIC we catch a glimpse
(or two of) in Spock's cabin?

{M}

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 82 10:23:21 EST  (Sun)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Spock's core dump

perhaps one reason that the vulcan mind meld takes so long is that he
(spock) has to find out what the mind of the person looks like. he's
mind melded with mccoy before, so all he would have to do would be
just a quick core dump into an unused portion of mccoy's brain.

of course, all of these arguments will probably be resolved when the
next st comes out...
                                        -andy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #73
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, November 9, 1982 10:49PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #73
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 10 Nov 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 73

Today's Topics:
    SF books  - Moorcock "Swords" Trilogy
    SF cons   - World Fantasy Con
    SF movies - It Came From Hollywood, Star Trek core dump, The Slime People
		The Last Unicorn
    Misc      - space rock
    Humor     - the parody strikes back
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1982 09:01 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Moorcock "Swords" Trilogy, etc.


        For those of you who are interested....

        Corum (the main character of the series) also appears in a 
not-so-major role in "The Quest for Tanelorn".  Portions of "Tanelorn"
also appear in "The Sailor on the Seas of Fate", although told from a
slightly different viewpoint.
        Jhary a-Conel (another major character) appears in lots of
other books by Moorcock, most notably "The Champion of Garathorm" and
"The Quest for Tanelorn", and incidentally in numerous others.
        The Lords or Law & Chaos (especially Arioch), and the related 
stuff appear even more often, most prominently in the Elric series and
the Castle Brass series.  (I don't know why he puts out many thin 
books rather than one fat one.  Do you make more money that way?)
        Incidental characters (Terhali, Yrkoon, Vadagh in general,
etc.)  to the Corum series also occur in many other of Moorcock's
books.  Moorcock has written about 40 books, and those that I have
read (~30) are ALL tied together, however tenuously.

                                chris

------------------------------

Date: 9-Nov-82 17:05:00-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!minow@Berkeley

RE: The One Tree in Paperback (SFL :72)

The One Tree is out in British Paperback.  At least one Cambridge MA 
Bookstore (Harvard Books in Harvard Square) had a copy last August.  I
ought to know; I bought it.

Martin Minow decvax!minow @ Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: 9 November 1982 04:24 est
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: World Fantasy Con

I am looking for some information on the World Fantasy Con. I would
like to talk to the people who were running the last one and the next
one (1983) in Chicago. Can anyone out there provide me the names and 
telephone contact either for those running the convention or for the 
company and people that sponsor it?

        ~Paul~

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1982 12:02:43 CST (Tuesday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: It Came From Hollywood +

Mini Review: Hilarious

It Came From Hollywood is a salute to the bombs that hollywood has
dropped on an unsuspecting (?) public in the past. It consists of
clips from some of those movies, interspersed with new (well, not old)
material by Cheech & Chong, John Candy, Dan Akroyd, and Gilda Radner.
Said people are up to their usual standards.

The movie is divided into sections, each section spoofing some notably
ridiculus feature of grade D movies - monsters, brains, musicals, and,
of course, the Great Ed Wood. Each section starts with the one of the
stars (no, mike, be honest - they are commentators - the stars are
those old movies) talkng about the subject in general, and then going
on to talk about the

If you're one of the people who wait around til 2 in the AM to catch
The Slime People, this movie is worth seeing. They even provide a list
of everything they used cuts from at the end, which can be used as a
viewing list. If your tastes haven't degenerated to that point, you
can use this as an avoiding list.

Plus - there was a preview for an animated movie entitled `The Last
Unicorn.'  Looks like it could be good.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1982 1044-EST
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Space rock

        I thought of a couple of other space rock tunes.

        Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft -- Carpenters, 1977

        "We've been observing your earth, and we'd like to make a 
contact with you."

        Come Sail Away -- Styx, 1977

        "I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, 
they climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies."

        Also there's 2001 (Also Sprach Zarasthura) -- Deodato, 1971(?)
and Outa-Space -- Billy Preston, 1972, but those are instrumentals.  
If you give me enough time, I'm sure I could think of some more.


                                                --gregbo

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1982 0850-EST
From: Mike First <FIRST at NLM-MCS>
Subject: Spock Core Dump

People keep discussing which half of Spock was left in his body to
die.  Maybe the colloquialism "core dump" is in fact accurate and
Spock sent a copy of his mind's essence to McCoy, being able to leave
a copy in McCoy and a copy in himself (like a real core dump--the
memory is sent to the print spooler without disturbing the original
memory in core).  So what if they give us the answer in the next ST
movie--pointless speculation is one of the true joys in life!
--Michael (FIRST@NLM-MCS)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1982 08:38 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Spock's core dump

You don't absolutely have to destroy memory to do a core dump.  Spock 
could simply have done a "Block Move" and copied both halves of his 
personality into McCoy's brain, leaving the original Spock personality
intact.
                                chris

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 1982 14:38:47 CST (Tuesday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #72


Re: Spock's core dump

Hold! Enough! Desist!

I suspect that McCoy probably DOES have part of Spock tucked away in
some safe place, and it's probably half human and half vulcan.

But please, folks. No more movie reviews for a while.

        Jeff

ps. Can anyone tell me about the next book in the HHGttG series?

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 November 1982  01:15-EST
From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC
Subject: The parody strikes back

After seeing that old SW parody of mine, I couldn't resist. Our
friends have solved their serial problems, but they have some slightly
more virtual problems now...

[The ice planet Hoth is under attack. Luke, aided by Han, is desperately
trying to raise rebel HQ for new orders.]

Han: Quick! Find out where we shoudl relocate to!

Luke: Ok! Hang on...

MIT-SW DecSystem 90         The Force is With You
Forcex 5.9   There are 15 jobs and the load is 4.65

@obk.luke
OBK.LUKE logged in [deleted for security reasons]
Last login a long time ago from a galaxy far, far away...
You have mail from "Dadykins" <VADER@EMPIRE-20>

@mail
To: big-cheese@rebel-hq
Subject: Help!
Where do we go from here?!! --- Luke
^Z
[big-cheese - Message not queued, TCP only in operation]

Han: Oh no! The Empire has brought up TCP early!

Luke: Ok...maybe I can use CSNet...

>To: big-cheese.rebhq@udel-relay
[big-cheese - Queued]

Han: How long will it take now?

Luke: Hmm, with CSNet...better dig in.

[Time passes]

From XMAILER:
Mail to UDEL undeliverable, reason:
"Hey man, like the core is flakey. Give us some time to find the bad bits..."

Luke: It's worse than I expected...

Han: You don't mean?

Luke: Yes, USENet...

@mail
To: harpo!chico!physics!a!b!decvax!tatoine!hoth!rebel!base!exclaimation@berkley
Subject: Send flowers to...
Help! Get us out of here.

Han: I just got a report... Evil empire high school students are playing
Rogue on every Unix in the galaxy, our mail will never get through...

Luke: One other hope...er, wrong choice of words...

@MCP
Yes?<EOL>
Send message
To?<EOL>
Rebel Base HQ
Text<EOL>
Help! We need reinforcements!
Sending<EOL>
Query estimated delivery time?
I send mail 1543 times faster than when you wrote me<EOL>

Han: This ought to get through.

ILLEGAL INSTRUCTION: TRON
CORE DUMP/MEMORY DISABLE
HALT|ILLOP
@

Luke: Ben, I need you now!

Han: Now where did I put that Telex?

[Suddenly, words start appearing on the screen...]

@domagic
Unix mode entered
$ rebel-base < obi wan < helpmessage
$ ^D
@

Han: Look! Ben acted as a pipe! We're saved.

Leia (Who's been offstage dialing the modem...): Hi there, this is my
token appearence, bye!

Ben (Dim, offstage): Never underestimate the power of the farce.

Moral: Old Jedi don't die, they just get a NICE 20

(Author's note: I left out a whole bit I could have done dealing with
Yoda trying to send stuff and RFC733 (*sigh*) not being able to understand
reverse-polish addresses.)

MIT-OZ, RG.JMTURN at I am

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #74
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1982 11:29PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #74
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 11 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:
    Administrivia - sf lovers back issues needed
    authors - Moorcock
    books - The Last Unicorn, The One Tree, Richard A.
    misc - Space rock
    movies - Jedi
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1982 2259-PST
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: sf lovers back issues

We are missing the following issues: volume 3 #104-120 inclusive.  
Does anyone have them?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1982 1653-PST
From: Barry Eynon <CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #73

Random notes:

On Moorcock: "Jhary a-Conel" seems to me to be another alias for the 
omnipresent Jerry Cornelius, further demonstrating the many links 
between all of Moorcock's works. I've read some comments by Moorcock 
on the metastructure of his writing, but I can't remember where. As I 
remember it, the Law/Chaos conflict which is the basis for the Elric 
stories extends across all of time and probably through several
realities.  Many of the characters in his stories are embodiments of
recurring archetypes which are aligned in various ways vis-a-vis the
conflict.  I think this underlying thematic structure to Moorcock's
work makes it very interesting, but a bit difficult till you begin to
see the larger picture.

On HhGTtG: I picked up "Life, the Universe, and Everything" as soon as
I saw it. It's pretty good, but I don't feel it's up to the level of
the earlier works. I would have liked for more of the original 
questions to have been dealt with. In particular, in the beginning of
the first book , and the radio show, it is implied that Arthur was one
of the people responsible for creating the Guide itself, but this is
never taken further. Perhaps even more books/series are planned?

-Barry Eynon

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1982 0904-MST
From: Evelyn Mathey <MATHEY at SANDIA>
Subject: THE LAST UNICORN

This is a beautifully animated version of Peter S. Beagle's book.
Nearly all of the staff (judging by the names in the credits) seem to
be Japanese.  This has affected the animation style.  The whole movie
has the delicate beauty that I associate wih Japanese art.  That is
not to say it lacks strength where needed - the red bull is everything
he should be!

Beagle himself was involved in the production and it is an accurate
portrayal, even manageing to catch most of the subtle emotional tones
as well as the more obvious ones.

If you liked the book, I predict you will love the movie.  If you have
never read the book, I recomend the movie.  But beware - it is not a
childern's fairy tale, but an emotional (as opposed to intellectual)
story of an immortal being, normally removed from the world and
emotions of man, learning to to feel, to love, and to regret.

--- Evelyn.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1982 2148-EST
From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: The One Tree in paperback

There ae paperback copies of this being printed and distributed (like
you wouldn't believe - every bookstore on every corner has huge
displays) in Australia.  I contacted Zeising Brothers in willimantic
CT (phone 203-423-5836) upon return, and they informed me that they
had aquired some copies of that edition.  You might try contacting
them.  The publisher in GB is Fontana Books


-reed

------------------------------

Date: 10 November 1982 23:37-EST
From: Ken Harrenstien <KLH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Richard A.

This is not science fiction.  It is spy-novel fiction that verges on a
few interesting assumptions but it is extremely unbelieveable, boring,
and disappointing.  "Death Beam" is of the same "mainstream" ilk but
at least was slightly more believeable and entertaining.  I didn't
consider that to be SF either.

So as not to be totally negative: has anyone else seen the first novel
of what is advertised as the "Roderick the Robot" trilogy?  I was 
expecting a pretty hokey story but it actually seems to be written by 
someone (Sladek) who knows enough about AI to convince you to go along
for the ride... and he certainly hits on a lot of painful childhood 
memories!  I think a lot of people on this list would find it
worthwhile.

--Ken

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1982 09:00 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Space rock

More space rock (all by Pink Floyd) : "Astronomy Domine",
"Interstellar Overdrive" and "Set the Controls for the Heart of the
Sun", plus one other whose name I don't recall.  All are from ~
1967-68.

                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 1982 0910-EST
From: Mike First <FIRST at NLM-MCS>
Subject: Space Rock

You'll note that with the exception of David Bowie's "A Space Oddity"
the previously mentioned songs are all awful!  One song that was left
off is the original space-age classic "Telstar", an instrumental piece
done in the late 50's/early 60's that was written to celebrate the
beginning of America's entry in the space age.  I think it was by the
Ventures but I may be wrong--anybody else know?  Other SF songs: 1) In
the Year 2525 - Zager and Evans, 1969 2) The War of the Worlds--this
is an interesting rock version of the HG Wells story that was released
in 1978 as a two record set on Columbia with many famous rock stars
contributing.  One hears its rarely on the radio except on Halloween
when its "chic" to play it (kindof like playing the Doors "Riders on
the Storm" on a rainy afternoon--REAL PROGRESSIVE ROCK!)  3) Time Warp
- Rocky Horror Soundtrack 4) Phasers on Stun- FM (a Canadian group
that was popular circa 1980) 5) 10,000 Light Years From Home - The
Rolling Stones (an early classic) (or is it 20,000) 6) Get Em Out By
Friday - Genesis from the LP "Foxtrot", concerns genetic engineering
for nefarious purposes 7) Starship Trooper - Yes Any more?

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 10 Nov 1982 20:17-PST
Subject: More on revenge...
From: Paul Asente <asente@Shasta at SU-Score>

I think that all this discussion about revenge befitting (or not) a 
Jedi is all part of a plot by Lucasfilms to keep us from discovering 
the real name of the next film.  Once "The Revenge of the Jetsons" 
comes out, the smokescreen will become apparent for what it is:  why 
shouldn't the Jetsons get revenge?  After all those years George
worked faithfully for Spaceley's Sprockets and never got a promotion, 
something was bound to happen...

        -paul

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #75
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1982 11:49PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #75
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 12 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:
    Books - Hitchhiker's Guide authorship
    SF related music and musical comedy
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1909-PST
From: Barry Eynon <CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide authorship

B. J. Herbison (Herbison-BJ@Yale) queried me on my statement that it
is indicated in HhGttG that Arthur Dent is involved with the creation
of the Guide. A bit of research indicates that indeed, such a
statement does not appear in the published book. But, since I have the
record set (on which more later), I took the liberty of transcribing
the following from the introduction to the first show:

 "To tell the story of the book, it is best to tell the story of some
of the minds behind it. A human from the planet earth was one of them,
though as our story opens, he no more knows his destiny than a tea
leaf knows the history of the East India Company. His name is Arthur
Dent, he is a six foot tall ape descendant, and someone is trying to
drive a bypass through his home..."

It is worth noting that the books do indeed differ considerably from
the radio show, and unless I am hallucinating, even the order of
occurrence of some of the sections is changed. What was even more
annoying was to get home with my copies of the (rather expensive)
record sets entitled "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (a two
volume set) and "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" (one LP)
to realize they only together contain the first six episodes which
were broadcast in the first series. (For the completist, I got my
copies at Future Fantasy, in Palo Alto, who I believe had them
imported from England. They are copyright 1979 and 1980 from ORIGINAL
RECORDS, LTD, London).

Anyway, remember.... DON'T PANIC
-Barry Eynon

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 09:16 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: More Space Rock

This time from the B52s, on their 'Yellow Album' (1980?) : "Planet
Claire" and "There's a Moon in the Sky"; Devo on "Q: Are We Not Men"
(1979?) :  "Space Junk" and "Jocko Homo" (about evolution); and from
the Rocky Horror Picture Show soundtrack : "Super Heroes".

                                        chris

PS I'm pretty sure the Ventures did "Telstar", or at least a version
of it.  I think I might even have an LP called "The Ventures Sing
'Telstar'" (or a similar name).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 10:42:54 EST (Thursday)
From: Bernie Cosell <cosell at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Telstar

Doen by the Tornadoes.  Managed to make #1 in December of 1962.  The 
Tornadoes were never heard from again...

    /Bernie

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 12:50:51-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: space rock

   Perhaps the best single example is Freddie Mercury's "In the Year
of '39", which is sung from the point-of-view of someone who made a
round trip on a relativistic sub-light ship. \\Very// good song.
Mercury is evidently a fairly knowledgeable fan of SF; the cover of
one of the albums of his group Queen is based on Kelly Freas's first
cover for Analog, revised by Freas to show the group instead of a
single corpse in the robot's hand.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 10:03 PST
From: Fusco.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #74

Here in L.A. the radio stations have been carrying advertising for a
book called "Battlefield Earth."  Has anyone seen, read, or heard
anything about this book.  Specifically, is it worth buying and
reading??

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 10:06:09-PST
From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg])
Subject: Space Rock

I must have missed the original message, so I'm not sure if this one
has been mentioned yet: "'39" by Queen, off their "A Night at the
Opera" album.  It concerns the slings and arrows of relativistic time
dialation.

Is someone writing these down?  I would very much like a consolidated
list.
--- Jef

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1251-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Space comedy, for starters

[Note: I'm sending this from work, so I don't have my record
collection
 for reference in front of me]

Eight Foot Two, Solid Blue (Has Anybody Seen My Gal?) - Allan Sherman
        from My Son, The Nut Shine On, Harvey Bloom (Shine On, Harvest
Moon) - Allan Sherman,
        from For Swingin' Livers Only Star Drek - Bobby Pickett and
Steven Ferrara (the former did Monster Mash) Yoda (Lola) - Al
Yankovich Star Flight - The Congress of Wonders, from Revolting!

There's got to be more; this is what I was able to come up with off 
the top of my head.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1241-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Space Rock

Some more:

        "(I Want to Be a) Spaceman" - Harry Niilson, from the lp
                "Son of Schmiilson"
        "Space Oddity - David Bowie, from ChangesOne (?)

Some which I can't remember the artists on (I may have a chance to
look them up later, but):

        "One-Eyed, One-Armed Flying Purple People Eater"
        "Martian Hop"

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1619-PST
From: Bob Knight <ADMIN.KNIGHT at SU-SCORE>
Subject: More space rock...

Rocket Man - Elton John, from Honky Chateau.  Poor man's Space Oddity.

Lord of the Rings - Bo Hanssen, a Swedish keyboard player (ca. 1970,
		    and, I believe, rare).  

Blows Against the Empire - Paul Kantner ca. 1970 - whole album concerns
		    ripping off the establishment's starship and tripping
		    (literally and figuratively) around the galaxy.  

Wooden Ships - on CSN's first album (the Airplane covered it on Volunteers, 
		    too).  After armageddon...

Everything You Know is Wrong - Firesign Theatre.  Not really rock, but a 
		    don't miss...

Hey, Mr. Spaceman - from the Byrds' album Younger than Yesterday (was this
		    penned by Dylan - probably...).

Fifth Dimension - Byrds, from the album of the same name.

? - from the Ultravox album Vienna.  The last song on the 2nd side has a
		    a futuristic/computerish theme.  Don't have the album
		    here, otherwise would have the title.

Space Captain - from Barbra Streisand's album Barbra Joan Streisand.  Probably
		    a cover.  First cut, second side.

Journey to the Center of the Earth - Rick Wakeman.  If Rick had hired people
		    who could sing, this might even be listenable...

I Robot - Alan Parson's Project.  It's OK, I supposed.  Based on the obvious...

? - Moody Blues, from the album To Our Children's Children Children.  The first
		    cut on the first side.  Can't remember the name for the
		    life of me, but "Voyager" rings a bell.

Intergalactic Touring Band - a collection of British rockers, including Annie
		    Haslam from Renaissance, among others.  I haven't listened
		    to this for a long time, so I don't remember much about it.

? - from Camel's second album Mirage.  On the second side, there is a brief
		    musical interpretation of some scenes from the Lord of 
		    the Rings.  Again, the name escapes me.

Moonmadness -  Camel's fourth album, I believe.  Worth it for the cover art
		    alone.

Sorry if I've duplicated anyone else's entries ...

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1706-PST
From: Bob Knight <ADMIN.KNIGHT at SU-SCORE>
Subject: More space rock...

Forgot these gems...

Changeling - from the Simplemind's album Reel to Real Cacophony...

I Made Love to ET - from Barnes and Barnes latest effort - also on
this is
                I Made Love to Pacman, etc...

As a spinoff from the 2001 movie craze long ago, Columbia released an
album entitled "Music from 2001" or somesuch.  Eugene Ormandy and
Leonard Bernstein were the conductors.  The first side was devoted to
covers of "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and the like, but the second ide
was devoted to at least part of the opera "Aniara", which has been
discussed here before, I believe.  Very strange and moving piece as I
recall.  If anyone's interested, I can dig up specifics...

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1710-PST
From: Bob Knight <ADMIN.KNIGHT at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Still more space rock...


Sigh...will this never end?

Space Baby - from the Tubes' first album...I KNEW they had put out
something
                relevant!

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1723-PST
From: Bob Knight <ADMIN.KNIGHT at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Still more space rock...

Spaceman - from Harry Nilsson's (sp?) album, Nilsson Schmilsson -
arguably one of his best efforts (certainly one of his funniest)...

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 82 16:39:00-EST (Thu)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: music

 .na On the subject of "space" and s-f related music:

There are really lots of artists and groups who have used s-f and
futuristic themes in their work.  David Bowie has been one of the
classic examples, with his personas Ziggy Stardust, Major Tom and
Thomas Jerome Newton, among others.  His sometimes-collaborator Brian
Eno has built a major body of work on very futuristic themes. The
group King Crimson and their founder Robert Fripp, have done much the
same.  British New Waver Gary Newman claims to have been influenced by
Philip K. Dick - check out his albums made with the Tubeway Army,
especially "Are Friends Electric ?".  Both Jethro Tull and the Alan 
Parson's Project have built entire concept albums from (mostly lame
and warmed-over) space/future ideas. Rick James, Bootsie Collins and
George Clinton funked into space a long time ago ("The Brides of
Funkenstein", "The Mother Ship Connection", by Parliament/Funkadelic,
etc).

        More seriously, those who like classical and other "real" 
futuristic music should listen to some of the compositions of Phillip
Glass and Steve Reich. Hard-core classical fans may have already
noticed that major portions of the score to "The Empire Strikes Back"
were ripped from Mahler's Ninth.

        Some time ago, someone mention a possible connection between 
Rush and the work of Ayn Rand.  Neil Pert, who does most of the 
writing for the goup, has apparently read alot of Rand, but
unfortunately seems to have gleaned from her work only the notion that
"since we're superior, we can lord it over the rest of you".  (I just
know I'm gonna get flamed for this, and I'll admit right off that
while I love rock and roll, I don't like Rush because I think they
take themselves too seriously, are horrendously overblown and
overproduced and write mush-brained lyrics not unlike the kind of
terrrible poetry teenaged girls tend to write).

        Some people claim that "Stairway to Heaven" is a space (or at
least spacey !) song, but I think the claim that it has ritual magic
influences is far more likely.

        Before I close, and before everyone starts screaming, let me 
mention my "qualifications".  I was program director of a college
radio for 3 years, and I live with a music writer, which gives me
access to a record collection of at least 6000 albums, so I have
listened to an enormous variety of music over the years. Those who'd
like to carry this discussion further can write to me directly, but
all you outraged Rush fans, please hold your fire.

either brave or foolhardy,

J. Patilla

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1982 1848-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Space Rock

        One of my favorites is "Third Impression", a space battle
ballad on "Brain Salad Surgery" by Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

-HWM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 12-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #76
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, November 12, 1982 7:10PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #76
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 13 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 76

Today's Topics:
    Administrivia - the complete 10 megabytes of SF-LOVERS
    Books - L. Ron Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH
    T.V. - Hitchhiker records
    Space Rock
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 82 17:59-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: the complete 10 megabytes of SF-LOVERS

The complete SF-LOVERS archives are finally available.  Each volume is
contained in its own file in the <SFL> directory on Arpanet site
SRI-CSL.  The contents are ordered chronologically.  The first archive
includes a number of messages from the early days before digests and
there is much of "historical" interest.  At the end of that volume is
a long discussion which took place during the Star Wars series craze.
Below is a directory listing of the files, volume 1 through volume 6.
For those unfamiliar with Tenex/Tops-20, the first number is the
number of Tenex disk pages, the second is the number of characters in
the file, for checksumming purposes if you FTP the file.  SRI-CSL
supports the Anonymous FTP convention. Volume 6 is the current volume
so it is being incremented daily as new digests come out.

   <SFL>
 ARCHIVE.V1      860  2200759
 ARCHIVE.V2      771  1972324
 ARCHIVE.V3      741  1895294
 ARCHIVE.V4      705  1803432
 ARCHIVE.V5      323  824576
 ARCHIVE.V6      390  996707

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 0954-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>

At OctoCon (in Santa Rosa CA) the table in the huckster room next to
the L5 table (where I was) was occupied by a girl who was selling 
copies of "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard.  And nothing else.  
She didn't seem to be doing much business.........

On a related subject, San Francisco seems to be in the midst of a 
barrage of television advertising for books on Scientology, also by L.
Ron Hubbard.  I have seen several commercials for Dianetics and one
other commercial for a different book (whose title I have forgotten)
also by LRH.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 10:03:47-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: HHG records

   Not only does it take 3 lp's to cover the first six episodes
(hardly surprising, since they all ran over 25 minutes and some were
pushing 30), the records I've seen are missing substantial chunks of
each episode (can't quote you chapter and verse, but I know
\something/'s missing when each side averages about 22 minutes (per
recollection from 2 years ago)).
   I don't consider the paragraph you quote (which I believe also
appears in the first book) something that Adams ever really followed
up, outside of Ford Prefect's urging to Arthur to come along with him
and help write the latest revision.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 08:44 EST
From: Sprague.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Even More Space Rock...

Remember the Future - Nektar.  A theme album about a telepathic alien
who lands on a planet and is threatened by everyone he meets
except a blind child...

also Recycled by Nektar is another theme album on the SF end of
civilization theme.

  - Mark

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 08:43 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Yet more space rock

Foriegner : "Starrider" ("Foreigner", 1976?).

Kraftwerk, if not exactly into SF-rock, tends to do a lot of hightech
stuff, e.g.  "ComputerWorld" (?, ?).  Rick Wakeman's fourth album (?,
1977) is a fantasy album, but I don't recall the name.

                                                chris

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 0635-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: Space Rocks on...

I have a cassette album that is all space rock - it appears to be part
of a space rock opera or some such thing, because it's titled "Flash 
Fearless Versus the Zorg Women, Parts 5 & 6".  It's from Chrysalis,
and one of these days I'll get around to writing them about it,
because it's pretty good rock.  Contains Side 1:  "Trapped" - Elkie
Brooks, "I'm Flash" - Alice Cooper, "Country Cooking" - Jim Dandy,
"What's Happening"
- James Dewar; Side 2:  "Space Pirates" - Alice Cooper, "Sacrifice" - 
Elkie Brooks, "To the Chop" - John Entwhistle, "Supersnatch" - Frankie
Miller, "Blast Off" - Jim Dandy, "Trapped" (reprise) - Eddie Jobsen.

If anybody knows anything more about this, like what is it and how
many parts does it have...I'd appreciate hearing from them.

Cheers, Rich

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982  9:07:21 CST (Friday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Yet Another Space Rocker

I find it hard to believe, that with all the obscure stuff that got
mentioned, that nobody noted "The Lord of the Rings" by Styx.  Ths is
more about the books than about what the books are about, but...

If someboyd out there is thinking about making a consolidated list,
I'd like to see a copy.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 11/12/82 1058-EDT
From: Joe Baldassini
Subject: Space Rock

Doesn't anyone remember "In the year 2525" by Zager and Evans ?

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1982 1116-EST (Friday)
From: Hook at CMU-CS-A
Subject: More Space Rock

More space rock (I couldn't resist)

        Title                           Artist
        -----                           ------

        Rock on the Moon                The Cramps
        Walking on the Surface of
                the Moon                Wreckless Eric
        Walking on the Moon             The Police
        Another Girl, Another Planet    The Only Ones
        Space Race                      Mi-Sex
        Mystery Plane                   The Cramps
         ("My baby drives a UFO...")
        Waiting for the UFO's           Graham Parker
        (Calling Occupants of)
                Interplanetary Craft    Klaatu
        Where's Captain Kirk ?          Athletico Spizz '80
        I Turned into a Martian         Misfits
        Starman                         David Bowie
        Space Monkey                    Patti Smith

[Also, there was a group (from Boston, I believe) called "The Space
Negroes".]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 0935-PST
From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH at SRI-AI>
Subject: A couple more space rock


A lot of the stuff from Jeferson Airplane was SF.  One in particular
was a song called "Crown of Creation", the lyrics of which were direct
quotes from Wyndim's(sp) novel "Rebirth".  They did this without a
credit on the record, I might add.

The Blue Oyster Cult has an occasional fling into SF, such "E.T.I. --
Extra Terestreal Intellegence" on the Agents of Fortune album.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 1102-MST
From: Pendleton at UTAH-20 (Bob Pendleton)
Subject: Space Rock

   Lets not forget "Intergalactic Laxative" from Donovan's Cosmic
Wheels LP.  An upbeat song about two of the least talked about 
problems of the early space program.

        Yours in Murphy
            Bob Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 1416-EST
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ at NLM-MCS>
Subject: more space rock

The Fabulous Poodles did a funny song entitled "The Bionic Man"

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 12 Nov 1982 13:19-PST
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #75: Space rock music
From: chris at RAND-UNIX


I'm not certain if you want to consider music written within an sf 
environment, but the list of space songs ought to include "Beyond
Antares", performed by Lt. Uhura to cheer up Riley in the Star Trek
episode "The Conscience of the King".  There are also the nonvocal
(and in my opinion absolutely awful) pieces done in "The Quest for
Eden" episode, where Spock and a band of 25th century free spirits
have a jam session.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 1703-EST
From: Greg Skinner <Gds at MIT-XX>
Subject: More space rock

Some of the obvious ones we missed!

Star Wars Theme/Cantina Band -- Meco (1977)
Star Wars/Soundtrack -- London Symphony Orch. (1977)
Theme from Close Encounters -- John Williams (1977)
                            -- Meco (1977)
Empire Strikes Back -- Meco (1980)

Ah!!!  Dream Weaver -- Gary Wright (1976) -- "Flying high through the
starry skies, maybe to an astral plane ..."

Kansas had an album out about 1979 that had an odd looking cover -- it
looked like something that might have been related to sci-fi.  The
album featured People of the Southwind.

------------------------------

Date: 12 November 1982 15:49 mst
From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard)
Subject: SF rock
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS

"Children of the Sun" by Billy Thorp, and "Welcome to the Machine" by 
Pink Floyd.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 1982 2124-EST
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at SCRC-TENEX>
Subject: Space Rock

The best example of SF in Rock I can think of is Space Ritual by 
Hawkwind.  This is a two-record very very strange work that I cannot 
begin to describe.  Probably because I'm still puzzling over what the
story it's telling is, since it sort of dumps you in the middle of a
very strange future universe.  Consider:  In Case of Sonic Attack,
which is sort of a civil-defense lecture which every so often crosses
the edge into sheer hysteria (one of the effects of a sonic
attack...).  You are exhorted, "In case of Sonic Attack, think ONLY of
yourself.  You cannot help anyone else..." etc.

It sounds like they did a bunch of acid, read some heavy SF , and then
went and wrote some music and played with sonic effects.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #77
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, November 14, 1982 6:53PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #77
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 15 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 77

Today's Topics:
    Books - Williamson's MANSEED, Zelazny's EYE OF CAT, Miesel's DREAMRIDER
    Space rock
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 82 13:51-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: SF column

n114 2320 13 Nov 82 BC-SCIFI-11-14
    SCIENCE FICTION
    By Roland J. Green
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    Jack Williamson is a grand master of science fiction. He would be 
one even if the Science Fiction Writers of America hadn't given him 
their Grand Master Nebula Award. In his 54th year as a published SF 
writer, his latest book, ''Manseed'' (Del ReyBallantine, $10.95) is a 
solid story, well told in admirably expressive but spare prose.
    In the near future, Earth is doomed to destruction from pollution,
famine and war. To give humanity a chance of survival, a plan is 
devised to launch thousands of interstellar ''seedships.'' Each little
space-going capsule carries genetic material from which the computer
can assemble 40 cloned colonists when the seedship is protected by a
Defender robot, controlled by the computer.
    However, the Defender robots and the colonists are composites of
the personalities of the six key people who lent their talents to the 
building of the seedships on Earth. Each was a highly gifted 
individual, with an essential skill, but also had complex 
psychological problems. Wiliamson handles these problems and their 
consequences both on Earth and on the colony planet with great skill.
The novel loses impact only toward the end, as the colonists fight off
an invasion from the progeny of another seedship. Unlike the 
psychological conflicts among the characters, this war is set up and 
resolved almost too quickly.
    In ''Eye of Cat'' (TimescapeSimon & Schuster, $13.95), Roger
Zelazny returns to the exploration of religion and myth that produced
his outstanding early works, such as ''Lord of Light.'' Billy Singer,
a Navaho Indian who has made a living tracking alien animals for zoos,
is called in to fight off a shape-changing alien assassin. To win, he 
must enlist the aid of one of his captives, another shape-changer 
known only as Cat. As the price of his aid, Cat demands the right to 
hunt Singer to his death across the 22nd century Earth.
    This hunt is the real heart of the book, as Singer fights not only
against Cat but against alienation from both Navaho and white society 
and against guilt over the death of a woman he loved. Singer does not 
fight alone; he has the aid of a team of well-sketched telepaths of 
marvelously diverse habits and dispositions.
    Good as it is, the book is so short that parts of it, particularly
the death of the assassin and the conclusion, seemed scanted.  
Balancing this is Zelazny's skillful use of Navaho myth and the 
excellence of the interpolated non-narrative passages. This is always 
a risky technique in an SF novel, but in Zelazny's hands they add 
depth to our understanding of the characters, of the Navahos, and of 
22nd century Earth.
    Turning from two veterans to a new writer, we come to Sandra 
Miesel's first novel, ''Dreamrider'' (AceBerkley, $2.50 paperback).  
In an Orwellian near-future world where perverted popular psychology 
takes the place of Big Brother, Ria, a young librarian at the 
University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, begins to have strange 
dreams. Exploring these dreams leads her into an alternate world, 
where the human race has been supplanted by intelligent otters, the 
result of genetic engineering. The portrait of the Orwellian world is 
a trifle shrill, but the alternate world is convincing and consistent.
The two shamans who help the girl understand her situation, Kara the
old woman and Lute the otter, are delightful creations, and the whole
book shows an intelligent use of historical and mythic materials to
create a fantasy story.
    END

nyt-11-14-82 0227est **********

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1982 0024-EST
From: John S. Labovitz <RMS.G.HNIJ at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC>
Subject: space rock


I remember a song called "Martian Boogie" (as in John Lee Hooker style
music).  Something about a martian landing on earth and learning how
to boogie.  Great song; I think I heard it on Dr. Demento.  Anyone
know who did it?

John

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1982 (Saturday) 1300-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: Who space rock

There was project Pete Townshend never got around to completing called
"Lifehouse," which was supposed to be an epic of a futuristic Earth.
A lot of the stuff from "Who's Next" was originally intended for the 
Lifehouse project.  Also there is a John Entwhistle tune, "905" on 
"Who are You," which is fun SF.

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1982 1446-PST
From: Don Woods <DON at SU-AI>
Subject: SF in music

A lot of the so-called "SF rock" that's been mentioned is pretty 
marginal.  Songs that happen to have space-related titles, or just 
"high-tech" music, and so forth.  If you're looking for real hard-core
SF in music, try to find a copy of "The Pentateuch", by Dave 
Greenslade.  This is a double album set that comes inside a bound 
volume with nearly 50 pages of SF art (by Patrick Woodroffe) and 
explanatory text.  The theme of the book is the discovery by earth of 
a derelict spacecraft and the subsequent analysis of the ideogrammatic
writings found aboard it.  Much of the book is the alien's "creation 
myth", as pieced together from the ideograms.  The music on the 
records is written to evoke images of the creation myth.

The artwork is excellent, the creation myth is intriguing, the music 
matches the story quite well.  The book and records typically sell for
about $25 if you can find them at all (non-trivial!); I managed to 
pick it up in Berkeley for $15.  The book alone is worth that much, if
you like space art.

        -- Don.

------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 82 0:00:59-EST (Sat)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: more spaced-out music

First, the piece on the 2001 recordings is "Lux Aeterna" by Gyorgy
Ligeti, which is a cantata, a choral work, not an opera.  The original
soundtrack is still available from MGM. Also, there is no song called
"Spaceman" on Nilsson Schmilsson. The so-called B-52's "Yellow Album"
is just titled "B-52s".  By the way, there has been a whole genre
called "space rock" in Europe for some time, including groups like
Popol Vuh, Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze.  Vangelis was once
considered to be one of the biggies, as was Jean-Michel Jarre.  Keep
in mind that most of this is instrumental and almost entirely
synthesized. If you like European techno-pop, you'll like Kraftwerk's
albums "The Man Machine" and "Computer World".

In no particular order:

"Flying Saucers Rock'n'Roll", by rockabilly singer Billy Lee Riley on
Sun (he nvinced he learned to rock from little green men from Mars)
"Spock is Gone" by Spizz Energy
"Five Year Mission", Spizzles (same folks, diff name)
"Space Invaders", The Pretenders, who in "Precious" refer to Howard
the Duck, the duck-shaped alien "caught in a world he never made"
"Planet Rock", Afrika Bambaataa and the Soul Sonic Force
"Countdown/Blastoff" & "Ride'o'Rocket" from "BLAM" by the Brothers
Johnson
"Rocket to Russia", the Ramones
"Quasar", from "Crossing" by Herbie Hancock
"UFO" and "Cosma Shiva" from "Nunsexmonkrock" by Nina Hagen (German
nutcase) anything by Sun Ra, including "Satellites are Spinning",
"Music of the Spheres", either volume of "The Heliocentric Worlds of
Sun Ra"
"I Sing the Body Electric" by Weather Report
"From the Tea Rooms of Mars to the Hell-holes of Uranus",
album by Landscape
"Lonely Planet Boy" from the New York Dolls' eponymous
debut album "Stairway to the Stars", "ETI", "Workshop of
the Telescopes" and "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" from
various albums by Blue Oyster Cult "Attack of the Giant
Ants" , "Shayla" and "Fade Away and Radiate", by Blondie
"Nasty Little Green Men" by Classix Nouveaux Also, "Music
from Cosmos", a compilation of pieces played on the PBS
series.  (billions and billions of notes ?), and
"Universe" by Scriabin (symphonic).

have fun,

J. Patilla

13-No

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 1982 1805-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Still More Space Rock

        Don't forget "After the Gold Rush" by Neil Young.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1982 23:58-EST
From: Landon M. Dyer <ZEMON at MIT-AI>
Subject: (yet more) space rock



        How obscure can you get?

Earthrise               - Camel, (circa 1976?)
Emergency Splashdown    - Roger Powell (circa 1980)
Albedo 0.31             - Vangelis, in album of same name
Lunar Sea               - Camel again, in 'Moonmadness' album


What about 'Computer rock'?  Offhand, I can think of some cuts by
Kraftwerk, but nothing else....

-Landon-

1

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 82 14:33:11 EST  (Sat)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #74

   From: Fusco.ES at PARC-MAXC
   Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #74

   Has anyone seen, read, or heard anything about BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

   Joe
   ------------------------------

I've seen a press release about it. What little I know about the plot
is: A race of evil villanous types are running around the galaxy
exploiting the natural resources of the planets they discover. (Gads!
Could James Watt be one of THEM?) If the planet already has a
population which might object to this uncouth behavior, they do
whatever they feel is necessary to get them out of the way. The bad
guys discover Earth and decimate the population leaving only a few
scattered disorganized tribes in desolate locations.  The action of
the story takes place in the far future after this situation has
existed for a few hundred (or is it thousand?) years. The human hero
of the story pops up and presumably gives the bad guys a hard time.

I've no idea if it's worth reading or not. I haven't seen the book
itself.  It seems that the publisher is going on an all-out PR blit

------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1982 1005-PST
Subject: Space Rock
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

Okay -- you want obscure.  "Mister Spaceman" (not "Hey, Mister 
Spaceman") was on The Holy Modal Rounders first album (1964 or so, 
details on request).  To quote from the album notes: "Mr.  Spaceman 
evolved from a pop tune of late 1962 called "Mr.  Bass Man."  [Steve] 
Weber made it up in the summer of 1963 and was too embarrassed about 
it to sing it for months.  Nothing worthwhile comes easy."

        Mike <Leavitt at USC-ISI>

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1982 1528-EST
From: Tony <Li at RUTGERS>
Subject: SF Rock



Another one for the list:

        Kommetenmelodie I + II - By Kraftwerk on Autobahn

Tony Li
Rutgers

P.S. Could the header of the digest contain a net address please?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #78
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, November 15, 1982 11:27PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #78
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 16 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 78

Today's Topics:
    Administrivia - sizes of SFL volumes and statistics
    Authors - Moorcock
    T.V. - HHGttG TV query
    Movies - HHGttG movie, Star Trek
    Misc - space rock
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 14 November 1982 18:19-PST
From: KDO at SRI-KL
Subject: sizes of SFL volumes

Interesting...assuming that each volume covers the same length of time
(is this true?) we've been going steadily down in volume since we
started, except that V6 is longer then V5, but that's only because V5
is strangely short.

                    Ken

[Here are the dates, durations, and disk-pages-submitted-per-day for
each volume in the archive:
   Vol  Begin           End             Months  Pages/day
    1   15-Sep-79       30-Jun-80       9.5     3
    2   1-Jul-80        31-Dec-80       6.0     4.28
    3   1-Jan-81        30-Jun-80       6.0     4.1
    4   1-Jul-81        31-Dec-81       6.0     3.9
    5   1-Jan-82        30-Jun-80       6.0     1.79
    6   1-Jul-82        present         4.5     2.9
There was a definite slackening in the first half of '82 which I
attribute to poor moderator coverage by the previous moderator. When
digests don't come out regularly, people send in less. However, notice
that our page rate has picked up in the second half of '82. --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1982 2349-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Moorcock

        Most of Moorcock's work is part of one large structure:  The 
Eternal Champion Cycle.  It seems to include John Daker, Elric, Corum 
and Hawkmoon in the mainstream, and numerous others, most notably 
Jerry Cornelius in slightly less important standing.  However, I've 
always found, in every one of Moorcock's books that I've read, some 
reference to the Champion Eternal.

------------------------------

Date: 14 November 1982 2335-EST (Sunday)
From: Michael.Fryd at CMU-CS-A (C621MF0E)
Subject: HHGttG TV querry

How many episodes in the TV incarnation of HHGttG that is currently 
appearing on PBS?

                Michael Fryd @CMU-10A

------------------------------

Date: 15-Nov-82 08:16:08-PST (Mon)
From: npois!pyuxbb!pyuxdd!somewhere!ggr@Berkeley
Subject: Another HHGttG (almost) movie rumor


The lastest item on HHGttG movies, from the Newark Star-Ledger:

Film rights to the runaway bestseller "Life, the Universe and 
Everything" -- Douglas Adams' latest literary follow-up to his hit 
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" -- have been snapped up by Ivan
Reitman.  Reitman, responsible for such cinema fluff as "Animal House"
and "Meatballs," has signed Adams to co-produce and write the film 
version of his "Life" sci-fi (sic) comedy, and hopes to get the 
picture through production and into theaters by Christmas of '84.

                                === Guy Riddle == BTL Piscataway ===

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1982 2336-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #68

On ST:TWOK-

Spock was not entombed in a photon torpedo, but in a coffin of some
sort.  Thus, although the coffin may be expected to vaporize, the
planet certainly wouldn't.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1982 2333-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #69

On the subject of console codes:  from the way the console codes were
used in ST:TWOK, it would appear that it takes a functioning computer
on, at least, the recieving ship for it to work.  In both the Doomsday
Machine and The Ultimate Computer, the recieving computers were either
destroyed or not recieving (remember, Khan was expecting a
transmission from Kirk.  He just got a bit more than he'd asked for).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 82 16:09:55 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: More on Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan

I hate to beat a dead horse but: I just saw the movie again this 
weekend and noticed for the first time, something that no one seems to
have mentioned. There's been a lot of dispute as to how much 
information Spock could have dumped into McCoy's brain in the few 
seconds he held his hand against McCoy's head. What the movie actually
shows is Spock placing his hand against McCoy's head and holding it 
there for a couple of seconds, but it does NOT show Spock remove his 
hand. The scene ends with a hard cut to a flashing ``RADIATION'' sign,
then another hard cut to Spock entering the disco room. It is not
clear that Spock was in contact with McCoy for only the few seconds
portrayed in the movie, and since Scotty was unconscious at the time
Spock came on the scene, and he woke up just as Spock went through the
radiation-proof door, it's consistent with the notion that some time 
has elapsed since Spock began his mind-meld (or whatever) with McCoy.
Of course he didn't have much time because of the impending Genesis 
detonation, but he might have taken a minute.

Another minor point: I noticed on the rear of Reliant's saucer-hull,
on either side, what I assume are shuttlecraft bay doors labeled 
respectively ``1'' and ``2''. You get some good views of these in the 
dogfight scenes in the nebula.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 82 08:49:35 EST  (Sun)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: space rock

what about the works of Gary Numan? Virtually everything he's done has
had a sort of mechanization of the future type theme.  (Are `Friends' 
Electric?, The Machman, Praying To the Aliens, When the Machines Rock,
I Nearly Married A Human, The Life Machine, Engineers)

There is of course, DEVO (are we not men?). With such ditties as Smart
Patrol/Mr. DNA, Space Junk, Gates Of Steel, and Planet Earth.

There's the B-52s, with 53 Miles West of Venus, Planet Claire, and 
There's a Moon In the Sky (Called the Moon). Not much to do with SF, 
but it's still fun music.

Landscape, with their "From the Tea-rooms of Mars . . . To the 
Hell-holes of Uranus." album. Computer Person, Einstien a go-go, and 
From the Tea-rooms of Mars . . . to the Hell-holes of Uranus 
(consisting of "Beguine", "Mambo", and "Tango").

                                        -andy

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 15 November 1982  18:45-EST
From: Nivek <Dowling at CMU-20C>
Subject: SF Rock

As Don Woods pointed out many of the space rock items don't seem to
fall into a category of SF oriented music. The Techno-pop stuff
(Tangerine Dream, Jean-Michel Jarre, Kraftwerk, Vangelis) are neat to
listen to but is mostly instrumental, highly synthesized music and not
really SF.
        Some of the Pop stuff (in the Mr. Spaceman vein) are just
tunes that seem to have some words and a title that might have
something to do with SF.  Perhaps narrower catagories such as
Techno-pop, or Computer Rock might be used to distinguish some of this
music. SF-movie-soundtracks don't seem to fit in this catagory either.
(although the Star Trek theme has words written to it.)
        The SF-music might be defined as music telling a story that we
might equate with good written SF, along with good music, whether it
be R&R, or classical etc. Lyrics and associated pictures might fill
this out even more. Further subdivisions might be SF-humor-music
(Allen Sherman Yankovich stuff, I made love to ET etc etc) The best
examples given so far seem to be: (both albums and songs)

    The Pentateuch              Dave Greenslade
    2112                        Rush
    Cygnus X-1                  Rush (2 parts)
    Rivendell (Lord 'o Rings)   Rush
    Remember the Future         Nektor
    Recycled                    Nektor
    Space Ritual                Hawkwind
    In the year 2525            Zager and Evans
    Veteran of the Psychic Wars Blue Oyster Cult
                                (also used in Heavy Metal Movie)
    In the year of '39          Queen
    Welcome to the Machine      Pink Floyd (others mentioned)
    Blows against the Empire    Kantner (Jefferson Starship)
    Space Oddity                Bowie
    Wooden Ships                CSN
    Lord of the Rings           Hanssen
    3rd impression              ELP
    Starship Trooper            Yes
                                Camel

I may have missed others mentioned in past sf-lovers, but these seemed
to be the "real" SF-music so far.  SF-movie-soundtracks, SF-humor,
SF-classical, Techno-pop. of course any given song might fit more than
one catagory. It just seemed that Mike Blackwell's original message
brought out a whole variety of SF inspired music as opposed to the
SF-novel-in-a-song kinda music.
                                        nivek
(dowling@CMUA)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1982 11:42-EST
From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A
Subject: sf rock

I seem to recall that the ``Olias of Sunhillow'' album by (Yes's) Jon 
Anderson has to do with an interplanetary voyage of some sort, and 
includes a booklet expanding on the music. ``Starship Trooper'', from 
``The Yes Album'' certainly has has an sf title, though I don't know 
what it is really about. ``Arriving UFO'' from Yes's ``Tormato''.  And
isn't there something from ``The Court of the Crimson King'' called 
``21st Century Schizoid Man''?  Also, ``'39'' is by Brian May (Queen's
guitarist), not Freddie Mercury.

------------------------------

Date: 13 November 1982 01:23-EST
From: Leor Zolman <LEOR@Mit-Mc>
Subject: SF music

Klaus Schulze did an album called "Dune", based on the book. The
amazing thing about Klaus's albums is they average about 30 minutes
per side, all very mellow synthesized pulsating rythms. Look for him
in the imports section (BTW, he was with Tangerine Dream for a short
time early on in that band's existence.)
        -leor

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1982 1508-EST
From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: Space Rock, real time

The record someone asked about recently (V76) is/was:

        1 Eyed, 1 Horned, Flying Purple People Eater

I've forgotten who did it (early 60's), but will look it up (after I
dust off several stacks or 45s in the back room later tonite.  It was
one of the early biggies of the time when people like Jerry Lee Lewis
and The Big Bopper were doing music that you could understand the
words to (the first time!)

In keeping with the cross between fantasy and rock... does anyone
remember

        The Adventures of Duckman and Ganders

which came out sometime later (like 66 or 7) ????  It was a spoof on
the then popular Batman TV show.  Yes there really were radio stations
that played it, though it never made the TOP 40 like 1e1hFppE.

I may have missed it, but has anyone mentioned Major Tom ???  Everyone
take your protein pills.

                                                -bp-

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1982 08:56 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Son of Space Rock

Queen a lot of soundtrack work for the movie "Flash Gordon" (1980?);
including "aka Flash" which was a hit for some time.

Robert Kearns remarks on Hawkwind :

    "It sounds like they did a bunch of acid, read some heavy SF,
    and then went and wrote some music and played with sonic effects."

This is what I have been told IS the way they write their music, as
well as the way Moorcock writes books.  Does anyone out there know for
sure?

                                                chris

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 82 13:02-EST (Mon)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-coins@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Hawkwind

I'm glad you bring up Hawkind, while they are not very well known,
I think they constitute one of the few groups that is could be
characterized as an entirely SF group.

In addition to their Space Ritual album:

  Earth calling,
  Space is deep,
  Welcome to the Future,
  10 seconds of Forever

There is the Hall of the Mountain Grill (it should be bought for the
 cover alone, a ruined space-craft on a deserted planet)

   The Psychedelic Warlords (disapear in smoke)
   D-Rider
   Web-Weaver

(they have several other albums out but I can't recall the names)

                                - Steven Gutfreund

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #79
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1982 1:15AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #79
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 17 Nov 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 79

Today's Topics:
    Authors - L.Ron Hubbard, Moorcock
    Radio - Star Wars & The Empire Strikes Back
    Themes - AI in SF
    Query - does anyone recognize this book?
    Music - classics, rock, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1982 09:56 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF Lovers remarks re L. Ron Hubbard

In light of the hype of L. Ron Hubbard's material and the Church of
Scientology at OctoCon and on San Francisco television (SF-LOVERS
Digest Volume 6 : Issue 76), it is interesting to note the news item
of 11-15-82 regarding Hubbard's son's attempt to obtain legal control
of L. Ron's estate.  It seems the younger Hubbard believes his father
is either dead or incapacitated and that others within the Scientology
organization are not behaving themselves.

Shades of Howard Hughes.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1982 1345-PST
Subject: SF Radio
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)

In a local "Radio-TV" newspaper column, in a discussion of an upcoming
re-run of Star Wars, the following information:

"The 'Star Wars' repeats will be followed in February by a similar
all-new National Public Radio adaptation of the sequel, 'The Empire
Strikes Back'."

(The repeats are carried here in St.Louis on KWMU, 90.7 MHz, at 2 PM
Saturdays.)  Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982  18:12-EST
From: AGRE at MIT-MC
Subject: SF/AI

For those who are interested, here is the section on SF from an AI
reading list I have just finished.  It was prepared with the aid of
responses from a SFL query of a few weeks ago.  There's no accounting
for taste, and I of course don't plan to.  Thanks to those who were
interested.

     It is important to keep in mind that AI is very hard and that we 
haven't yet had one percent of the good ideas that will be required to
do a proper job of it.  One good way to do this is to sample the
relevant science fiction now and again.  Start with Hofstadter and
Dennett's anthology "The Mind's I" (1981), which has a number of
excellent pieces by people like Stanislaw Lem and Jorge Luis Borges.
(Although it is advertised as semi-serious it is best regarded as
intellectual cotton-candy.)  Here is a list of some other things to
look at, roughly in order: Robert Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress", Stanislaw Lem's "The Cyberiad", Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot"
and "The Rest of the Robots", Fred Pohl's "Beyond the Blue Event
Horizon", John Varley's "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank", and Vernor
Vinge's "True Names".  (This last story is rather hard to find; it was
published by Dell in #5 of its "Binary Star" series.  It has a cult 
following among computer types.)

Douglas B Hofstadter and Daniel C Dennett, eds, The mind's I:
Fantasies and reflections on self and soul, Basic Books, 1981

Said reading list should soon be available from the MIT AI Lab
(Publications Office, MIT AI Lab, 545 Tech Sq, Cambridge MA 02139) as
Working Paper 239, "What to Read: A Biased Guide to AI Literacy for
the Beginner" by Philip E Agre.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16 Nov 1982 16:03-PST
Subject: Does anyone recognise this book?
From: Paul Asente <asente@Shasta at Sumex-Aim>

Many moons ago, when I was but a sprout in Indiana (Ohio, actually), I
read a book about a boy who was given a flask of some liquid that when
he rubbed some on his back (or drank some, I don't recall exactly) 
enabled him to grow wings and fly.  I seem to remember that this only 
worked at night when the moon was out or some such.  I have searched 
the children's sections of libraries and book stores, but haven't been
able to find this book since then.  Does that plot ring any bells with
anyone?  Thanks,
        -paul

------------------------------

Date: 16-Nov-82 13:40:10 PST (Tuesday)
From: Haynes at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Moorcock and Jerry Cornelius
Reply-to: Haynes at PARC-Maxc

Most of the Jerry Cornelius work is part of one large structure.  It
seems to include Jehemia Cohnalius, Jerry Cornelius, Corum Jehalen in
the mainstream, and numerous others, most notably Jherek Carnelian in
slightly less important standing.  However, I've always found, in
every one of Moorcock's books that I've read, some reference to Jerry
Cornelius.

        -- Charles

(Please excuse the misspellings of some of the names, I'm at work and
didn't take the time to look them up)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 82 14:31:37-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Moorcock Bibliography and Series

     Those interested in the works of Michael Moorcock will probably
want to pick up a copy of a recent bibliography of his works in
various media.  Entitled "The Tanelorn Archives," it's available from
Pandora's Books, Ltd.; Box 1298; Altona, Manitoba; Canada R0G 0B0.
Author Richard Bilyeu has care- fully organized Moorcock's works into
reasonable categories, including Books, Editorials, Films, Music,
Stories, Reviews, Manuscripts, and Letters.  Each entry within a
section contains the work's title, location within one or more series
(if applicable), and a complete publishing history, including
sufficient info to identify each edition.  When appropriate, data on
changes in title, pseudonymous publication, joint authorship, etc. is
also included.  It also covers fiction and non-fiction works that are
clearly influenced by Moorcock, with emphasis on Jerry Cornelius
material by other authors.

     For the benefit of those who've been discussing various Moorcock
series in recent issues of SFL, here's a compendium which I derived
from the info in Bilyeu's bibliography.  There are a lot of
intentional overlaps in the various series that Moorcock has written,
due (as someone mentioned a few issues ago) to his notion that certain
of his characters are actually archetypes who can be examined in
varying social milieux, including both fantasy and reality.

I.  The Dancers at the End of Time series
  A.  An Alien Heat
  B.  The Hollow Lands
  C.  The End of All Songs
  D.  Legends From the End of Time (three novellas)
  E.  The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming
      (pub. as The Fireclown in US)

II.  The Fireclown series
  A.  The Winds of Limbo
  B.  The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming [see I.E]

III.  The Karl Glogauer series
  A.  Behold the Man
  B.  Breakfast in the Ruins

IV.  The Oswald Bastable/Una Persson Series
  A.  Warlord of the Air
  B.  The Land Leviathan
  C.  The Steel Tsar
  D.  The Adventures of Catherine Cornelius
      and Una Persson in the 20th Century

V.  The Jerry Cornelius Series
  A.  The Final Programme
  B.  A Cure for Cancer
  C.  The English Assassin
  D.  The Condition of Muzak
  E.  The Cornelius Chronicles [ contains A-D in single edn.]
  F.  The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius
  G.  The Entropy Tango
  H.  Byzantium Endures
  I.  The Adventures of Catherine Cornelius... [see IV.D]

VI.  The Corum series
  A.  The Knight of the Swords
  B.  The Queen of the Swords
  C.  The King of the Swords
   [vols. A,B, and C are also available in a one-vol. set,
    The Swords Trilogy]
  D.  The Bull and the Spear
  E.  The Oak and the Ram
  F.  The Sword and the Stallion

VII.  The Hawkmoon/Count Brass series
  A.  The Jewel in the Skull
  B.  The Mad God's Amulet
  C.  The Sword of the Dawn
  D.  The Runestaff
  E.  Count Brass
  F.  The Champion of Garathorm
  G.  The Quest for Tanelorn

VIII.  The Erekose Series
  A.  The Eternal Champion
  B.  Phoenix in Obsidian
  C.  The Champion of Garathorm
  D.  The Quest for Tanelorn

In addition to the obvious overlap between Erekose and Hawkmoon, there
are numerous occasions in the other series when characters overlap.
The one series I've left out of the above list is the Elric series.
The reason is that it's only available in the "correct" six volumes
from English distributors; the American version has some portions
scattered into multiple volumes.  As it stands in England, the series
runs as follows:

  A.  Elric of Melnibone [sometimes titled as The Dreaming City]
  B.  The Sailor on the Seas of Fate
  C.  The Wierd of the White Wolf
  D.  The Sleeping Sorceress [aka The Vanishing Tower]
  E.  The Bane of the Black Sword [parts of which are also in
      The Singing Citadel, and other parts in The Stealer of Souls]
  F.  Stormbringer

The above lists do not cover all of Moorcock's novels, by any means,
nor do they deal with some of the specialized adaptations, like the
ELRIC comics once put out by Marvel.  Check the bibliography for that
stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1982 1105-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: Space music

During an unexpected layover in Denver, CO (in 1979) because SFO was
fogged in, I heard a band called (I think) Starfire.  They played a
lot of space, and Space Shuttle, oriented music.  During the break I
asked the lead singer about it, and he claims that in 1977 NASA's PR
department paid them to write an album's worth of songs about the
Shuttle.  Budgets and bureaucrats being what they were, the stuff got
recorded but never made into an album and promoted.  Which is a pity,
because these guys had turned out some really good stuff.  --Tom

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982  15:56-EST
From: BLIV at MIT-MC
Subject: Space Classics...

        Ok, how about this for "Classical Space Music" :  The Planets,
by Gustav Holst?  Some of the sections sound a lot like stuff from
SW...


                                >>> bliv <<<

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982  19:12-EST
From: MROSE at MIT-MC
Subject: Space Classics...

Where do you THINK Williams got most of the inspiration for his theme
from SW?  Creativity is fine, but sneakily exposing America's youth to
great works is better....


                                        mrose

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 82 14:43:30-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Did the Deep Fix really exist?

     Someone asked in a recent issue whether the band called The Deep
Fix[x], referenced in several of Moorcock's novels, really existed.
The answer is a definite yes.  The group consisted of Moorcock, Steve
Gilmore, and Graham Charnock ; the latter also collaborated
w/Moorcock on fiction and editing, esp.  in the New Worlds period.
The group only put out a single album, "The New Worlds' Fair," on the
United Artists label in 1975.  To my knowledge, it was never released
in the US . . . at least, I know I had to get it through an import
dealer.  The inner sleeve features a listing of Moorcock's various 
books then in print, and a dedication to "...Catherine, Frank, Jerry,
and Mrs.  Cornelius of Blenheim Crescent, who are with us in spirit,
if not, this time round, in person."
     The musical content is good, but not great.  It shows the
influence that his affiliation with Hawkwind had on Moorcock.  The
lyrics are somewhat sf in nature, though at times they require a
knowledge of obscure references to his fictional works to be
recognized.  Overall, I'd give it a 78, and I don't recall whether or
not you can dance to it...
     Other recorded stuff by Moorcock includes involvement with the
English acid-space rock band Hawkwind on their albums "Space Ritual,"
"Hall of the Mountain Grill", and "Warrior at the Edge of Time", his
banjo playing on "Lucky Leif and the Longships," by Hawkwind leader
Bob Calvert, and the song "The Great Sun Jester," on Blue Oyster
Cult's "Mirrors" album.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982  21:05-EST
From: BLIV at MIT-MC
Subject: Space Classics...

Hmm...good point!  Didn't even think about that...  Hope the
phenomenon becomes more widespread, though...


                                >>> bliv <<<

------------------------------

Date: 17 November 1982 02:05-EST
From: Don M. Matheson <DMM at MIT-ML>

Re:More SF-Rock

        Actually, the song "Calling occupants of interplanetary craft"
was written by the group KLAATU, although the carpenters did have the 
more popular version.  Did anyone ever decode the morse code message 
that was in the background of one of the songs on that album?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #80
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1982 9:16PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #80
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 18 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 80

Today's Topics:
    Authors - Moorcock, Micher, Snyder, Hubbard
    Music - space rock & classics
    Movies - Star Trek & Spock's coffin
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 13:49 EST
Subject: Moorcock and Jerry Cornelius
From: Chris Heiny (Heiny.Henr)

Other JC/CJ characters include :
    Jermays the Crooked ("Stormbringer")
    Lord Jagged of Canaria ("The Dancers at the End of Time")
    Lord Jagger of Ca? ("An Alien Heat") (I don't remember the rest
                                                        of his name)
    Jesus Christ (aka Karl Glogauer in "Behold the Man").

There are a number of others, but they are rather characters, and I'm
sure I've forgotten many others.

                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 13:58 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: re : Moorcock Bibliography and Series

Wow neat! I was working on a list like that myself, but I think I'll
stop.  There are one or two omissions though :

The Bull and the Spear, The Oak and the Ram and The Sword and the
Stallion (VI.A,B&C) are/were available in the US as The Chronicles of
Corum, published by Ace ~ 1978.

Both "correct" and "incorrect" Elric collections have been published
in both the US and Britain.  The US correct version is/was published
by DAW ~1977.  The Sleeping Sorceress is called The Vanishing Tower in
the US correct series.

                                                chris

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1647-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Moorcock

        I might also add, for the benefit of those who have not yet
read any Moorcock, in particular the Champion Eternal books (Elric,
Hawkmoon, John Daker/ Erekose, and Corum) that, while it does not
matter where you begin (although the Eternal Champion is a good place)
the Castle Brass books, especially The Quest For Tanelorn, should be
read last.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1701-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Moorcock

        For those who are into Fantasy Role Playing, there is an
excellent adaption of the Elric series out:  STORMBRINGER by Chaosium.
It's a role playing game set in the Young Kingdoms, and seems very
well done.  If anyone has questions, just send me mail.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1647-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Moorcock

        I might also add, for the benefit of those who have not yet
read any Moorcock, in particular the Champion Eternal books (Elric,
Hawkmoon, John Daker/ Erekose, and Corum) that, while it does not
matter where you begin (although the Eternal Champion is a good place)
the Castle Brass books, especially The Quest For Tanelorn, should be
read last.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1401-PST
From: Richard M. King <KING at KESTREL>
Subject: MICHNER'S SPACE

        Has anyone read Michner's SPACE?  Could they review it?

                                                Dick

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1815-EST
From: Marla <SELINGER at RU-GREEN at RUTGERS>
Subject: Flying potions


The story about a boy who rubs a cream on his back, grows wings and
learns to fly is called 'Black and Blue Magic'.  Sorry, I don't
remember the author's name.  I recently re-read it....it was great
when I was younger, and is still good...although the writing is a bit
simple, having been done for a simpler age group.

]marla[

Selinger@Rutgers

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1701-PST
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Answer to Asente



Regarding Paul Asente's inquiry ( V6: issue 79);

   The book in question is probably " Black and Blue Magic", by Zilpha
Keatley Snyder.  It is about the adventures of Harry Houdini Marco, a
shy and clumsy ( hence the title) adolescent who is given a potion by
the strange Mr. Mazeek, a visitor at the Marco boarding house.  He
rubbed a bit on each shoulder and recited a verse something like...

        " Wing feather, batleather, hollow bone,
          Gift of Icarus and Oberon,
          Dream of the earthbound, spin and flow,
          Flap and flutter and fan and GO!"

   There was a similar verse to make the wings go away.

   I really liked this book, and still have it somewhere at my folks'
house ( it must have been okay, for me to remember so much, no?).  The
young hero has many adventures, as he flies around his hometown San
Francisco, twice being mistaken for an angel after perfecting his
flying suit ( two old white drapes crossing his chest and back).
Anyone remember other good childrens' SF-Fantasy?

Steve ( carroll@isif)

[The childrens' book that turned me on to SF a number of years ago was
The White Mountains Trilogy by Christopher. It would be interesting to
find out if other people have a single book that clicked their SF
interest.  --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 1131-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-20C>
Subject: T.V. commercials for L.Ron Hubbard


While in Washington, DC on business yesterday I was startled to see a
commercial for a book by Hubbard--"Self Analysis". Interesting to hear
that San Francisco was also being attacked.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 0016-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: SF-Humor

I couldn't find the Purple People eater in my collection, but the
Martian Hop was done by a group called the Galaxies.  Also, on the
"Great White North" album by Bob and Doug McKenzie, there's a cut
called "Black Hole" where they use it as a topic for their "show".

Also, on "2000 Years with Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks," the space cut
is called "The Astronaught."  If you want computers, for a start,
there's "Automation" by Allan Sherman on "My Son, the Nut," and "The
Computer Date" on the Committee's only album, "The Wide Wide World of
War" (Robin Williams was a member of The Committee).

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 1982 2345-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: "Spaceman" by Nilsson

I'm holding the album on my lap.  It'son "Son of Schmilsson,"

and it's the first cut on side two.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 November 1982  10:52-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: Space Classics...

I agree about The Planets - the first time I heard parts of it, I kept
hearing parts small bits that seemed familiar.... As far as other 
space classical, I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned 
Pachelbel's Kanon in D, which was immortalized in (among other places)
the first couple of episodes of Cosmos.

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 17 November 1982  10:56-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>
Subject: Space Classics...

But I think you are all forgetting the truest example of classical 
music vis a vis space: the first movement from Bach's "Brandenberg" 
concerto #2, which was one of the "Sounds of Earth" sent out on board 
the Voyager spacecraft - a fine example of something beautiful that 
has been produced on this little rock...

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 9:19:19-EST (Wed)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: hawkwind


Re the question about the group Hawkwind, and the methods used in
writing their music. You were definitely right about the acid !  In
fact, at the time they were associated with Moorcock, the moving force
in the group was a fellow named Lemmy (Lemme?) who is probably the
most drugged-out nutcase in British rock today.  He left the group to
form Motorhead (speaking of Sonic Attack...), which is the utter
heaviest of heavy metal, something I don't imagine most mild-mannered
hackers listen to.  After he left, Hawkwind went rather downhill from
their already mediocre position and became Hawklords and are
apparently still recording (I seem to recall a new release of theirs
shipped a few months back).

J. Patilla

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 08:31:48 EST  (Wed)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: yasrgtif (yet another space rock group that i forgot)

What about Rush's 2112 album (or did somebody already mention that?)?
It's spaced out, and it's SF.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 08:23:08 EST  (Wed)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: yasdwsr (yet another submission dealing with space rock)

well, if you're going to mention Blondie with spacy titles, how 'bout 
Blondie with spacy lyrics. More specifically `Rapture' off of 
`Autoamerican' (total mistake. garbage music. "Rapture"'s only 
redeeming quality is the story line, and that isn't much.)

Obscure Kraftwerk: their VERTIGO album, circa 1972. Double album set 
(import), and the price is out of this world.  For just plain spaced 
out, there's always `Radioactivity', or `Trans-Europe Express' (which 
has a neat cut called `Showroom Dummies' (which is being used by a 
local clothing store in its TV advertizing))

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 08:27:40 EST  (Wed)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: spock's coffin

 . . . was an EMPTY photon-torpedo casing.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #81
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, November 19, 1982 12:50AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #81
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 19 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 81

Today's Topics:
    Books - Clarke's 2010: ODYSSEY TWO, Beagle's THE LAST UNICORN &
	    A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE, Watson's THE GARDEN OF EARTHLY
	    DELIGHTS
    Authors - Moorcock's names
    Movies - Star Trek coffin & short story
    Radio - Dr. Demento
    Music - space rock
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 19:21-EST (Wed)
From: Michael Aramini <aramini.umass-coins@UDel-Relay>
Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two

Does anyone know if/when the book 2010 will be available in paperback?

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 18 Nov 1982 08:44-PST
Subject: Moorcock's Names

  Corum e Jhalen Irsei,  the name of one of the avatars of
the Champion Eternal, is an anagram of Jeremiah Cornelius.

   This Moorcock guy is obsessed.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 0616-EST
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at SCRC-TENEX>
Subject: BOSCH BASH

It's what you can intellectualize but not assimilate on a gut level
that scares you shitless; your cells can turn against you, the IRS 
wants you for a random audit, the sound of sniper fire comes from
beyond your peripheral vision.  Etc.  Dwelling upon it fills you with
quaking awe.

It's the best fear to use for propaganda: Steel yourselves against--

(deleted)
--------------------------------

There, fair trade, review for review.  About Bosch: I think it's fair
to say that SF art was invented in the 15th century.  If you've never
seen any of his work, by all means, seek it out.  It is truely
ASTOUNDING that such visions could be conceived in his day.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 0712-EST
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK at SCRC-TENEX>
Subject: Addendum to previous msg.

I forgot to mention two points about Heavy Metal that deserve mention:
Sex and Violence.  I hope this doesn't provoke an overly long
discussion about Sex and Violence in SF, but it is a problem with the
mag for some people.  I do not like violence, and I especially don't
like it mixed with sex (sex is a powerful motivator, and the idea of
ties between sex and violence is something I find very frightening).
Some stories, particularly by some artists combine nudity and 
violence.  I know of some women who object to the magazine because it
seems exploitive.  I don't believe it is deliberately so, and the
nudity is of both sexes, but there are certainly biases and stereo-
types present.  I don't consider this a reason to not buy and
appreciate the artists, however.  Almost all the artists are men (this
is still true in SF writing, but not that much progress seems to have
been made in SF art...), and the biases are theirs, and a reflection
of their interests and emotions.  Somehow what I find disturbing is
not the violence and sex in the mag, but that it seems to slip right
in unnoticed in so many novels...  Printed words are even more subtle 
than TV in some ways.  I react much more strongly to violence I see in
Heavy Metal than either TV or books.  Heinlein and Charley's Angels
come to mind...

However, the only cases of actual SEXUAL violence that I can recall
have been directed against Den, Richard Corben's male hero.  (Yes, men
fantasize about being raped...but don't have to fear it).  The stories
and artists range from punk-rock/neo-nazi rock fantasies to surrealism
to peace-and-love fantasies.  Sex is PART of the stories and artwork,
as it is part of each of our own internal fantasy life and as violence
is part of each of our own stock of hidden fears (sometimes faced and
overcome in our fantasies).  The stories reflect these according to
the artists psyches.  But people fantasize about everything under the
sun, and I think a suitable balance is usually struck.

Does anyone know of women SF artists?  I knew a very fine one once,
but noone could convince her to submit her work...

BTW, the editor of Heavy Metal is a woman.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 17:44:39 EST  (Wed)
From: speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #68

  Date: 14 Nov 1982 2336-EST
  From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
  Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #68

  On ST:TWOK-

  Spock was not entombed in a photon torpedo, but in a coffin of some
  sort.  Thus, although the coffin may be expected to vaporize, the
  planet certainly wouldn't.

The photon torpedos used earlier in the film, and Spock's coffin were
identical.  Also, his coffin was loaded into the same firing tube.  It
is thus reasonable to assume that he was entombed in a photon torpedo
casing.  Obviously, they would take the inards of the photon torpedo
out first.  But this isn't the point that was trying to be made.

The point is that the coffin, Spock's body, and a hell of a lot of
dirt (not the whole planet as implied) are going to be consumed by the
impact.  In the movie, all survived intact.

                                                        - Speaker

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 0852-PST
From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH at SRI-AI>
Subject: Re: Spock's coffin



An empty photon-torpedo casing?  I thought Spock was in it.

/Mike

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 1004-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Worlds Shortest Star Trek Story

        A friend passed this along to me some years back.  Enjoy.


        "The Logical Thing to do."

SAREK:
        "You're what?"

AMANDA:
        "You heard me."



-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 82 19:17-EST (Wed)
From: Michael Aramini <aramini.umass-coins@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Dr. Demento

Can anyone tell me information about radio stations that carry the Dr.
Demento show that can be heard in Western Massachusetts or Northern
New Jersey?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 1982 2201-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Space Rock, continued

        Not really sure if this one fits, but how about "Eye in the
Sky" by the Alan Parsons Project?

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 1002-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Still more Space Rock

        Neil Diamond's new hit, "Heartline", is based on "E.T."

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 18 November 1982  19:13-EST (Thursday)
From: Robert P. Krajewski <RPK at MIT-MC>
Subject: SF Music

The B52s are one group that have an interest in the trashy aspects of
science fiction, in keeping with their early 60's trash aesthetic.
This is especially evident in the classic ``Planet Claire'' (``she
drove a Plymouth Satellite faster than the speed of light).  Don't
forget ``There's a Moon in the Sky (Called the Moon)'' and ``53 Miles
West Of Venus.''

Back when the Human League were scruffy college-student-looking types
(no Joanne Catherall or ``Don't You Want Me''), they were very
influenced by SF.  (Somebody may correct me on this, the Human League
were some alliance in the Flash Gordon serials.)  Their album before
``Dare,'' called ``Travelogue,'' had a song entitled ``The Black Hit
Of Space,'' which told the story of a song so popular it engulfed the
Universe.  Kinda ironic, isn't it ?

``Bob''

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 2322-EST
From: W. Scott Meeks <LS.WSCOTT at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: more space music


       Rather than just the Pachelbel from Cosmos, why not considerthe
whole Cosmos album (supposedly all of the music used in the TV show)
to be examples of clasical sf oriented music.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1982 0013-EST
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #80

On the subject of an SF/AI reading list:

Excuse my biased views, but any AI reading list that doesn't contain
"2001" or "When HARLIE was One" is incomplete.  As a matter of fact
the MIT list looked to be lacking a lot of good stuff.
  -Jim Hendler
  Brown University - AI

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1982 2204-PST
From: Bob Knight <ADMIN.KNIGHT at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Computer rock/space rock...

Two examples of computer rock quickly come to mind:

    Misex - Computer Games (from the album of the same name).
    Ultravox - All Stood Still (from Vienna, mentioned earlier).
     This song could be a user's lament, from what I can make of
     the lyrics:  "Please remember me, in tapes you might have made"
     ...as the system comes to a screeching halt...

The 2001 album I was thinking of is "Ormandy/Bernstein perform
selections from 2001 A Space Odyssey, with the Gregg Smith singers.
Added electronic effects by Morton Subotnik."  Along with "Music from
Blomdahl's opera Aniara, an epic of space flight in 2038 A.D."

     The entire second side is devoted to a suite from Aniara.  I
quote from the liner notes: 'Like "2001", "Aniara" is a story of man
at the mercy of an electronic brain and of humanity tested in the
crucible of the infinite [the liner notes are a bit dramatic - RMK].
Karl-Birger Blohmdahl, (October 19, 1916 - June 17, 1968) created his
prophetic opera from the story of a voyage through space in the year
2038.  On a ship speeding to Mars are 8,000 people fleeing a dying
Earth.  The computer fails, and the ship is diverted by a swarm of
shooting stars, thus dooming its inhabitants to eternal flight through
the universe in a ship of death.'

     This album was released as Columbia Masterworks MS7176.  I doubt
that it's still in print, though you never know.

Bob

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #82
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, November 19, 1982 8:52PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #82
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 20 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
    Movies - Beagle's THE LAST UNICORN, Star Trek coffin
    Books - James Michner's SPACE, first books
    Music - space rock
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, 19 November 1982  23:09-EST
From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC
Subject: The Last Unicorn

Microreview: If you liked the book, you'll love the movie...

Saw "The Last Unicorn" tonight. I can highly recomend it.

First off, it is *highly* faithful to the book (not surprising, since 
Beagle wrote the screenplay.) When I got home, I checked passages and 
sure enough, they were exact excerpts.

The animation is Japanese, from the Spaceship Yamato crowd, and fairly
good. As a result, expect to see the standard wide eyes, and there are
standard Japanamation stock characters.  Not as gritty as Watership 
Down, but the story doesn't call for it.  The voices are pretty much 
the way I imagined them, and the butterfly is worth seeing ten times.

There are only three songs in the movie (discounting the butterfly),
and they were done by America. One is for the opening/closing credits,
one is filler, and one is an expanded version of the love song Lir
sings to Almathea. The love song is cloying, but so was the original.
The other two, and the backgroung music, are of fine quality (as
opposed to Charlote's Web...)

Unfortunately, this film has gotten distribution exceeded only by
Attack of the Killer Tomatoes for its limitations. You may have to
hunt to find it, and the theatre may be not the best, but the movie is
worth it. I wish I had seen The Secret of NIMH, so I could contrast
it, but it is at least on the same level as Watership Down, if not
better.

If you liked the book, the movie is faithful and well executed. If you
haven't read it, go see a fun fantasy movie.

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 82 18:31:01-EST (Fri)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: "SPACE" by James Michner

     Pre-review caveat:  I like Michner's novels, in general.
They're not the world's greatest writing (in fact, he's easy to
imitate), but they tend to be reasonably thorough and well-researched,
and are usually a "good read."  So, if you don't like his stuff in
general, take this review with a grain of salt.

     Like most of his writing, SPACE is historical and widespread.  It
takes a group of characters, each of which is intended to represent a
position or viewpoint, and sets up a scheme of events in which these
characters interact in ways that let the reader see the key issues
involved.  Unlike earlier Michner books, however, SPACE doesn't deal
with a long period of time; essentially, it runs from the Second World
War to the present.  In many ways, this helps, for it allows him to
take more time to write about less time, and provides a lot more 
detail than usual.

     It's important to note, I think, that Michner has for several
years been a member of NASA's citizen's advisory board.  This was
certainly a sharp move on NASA's part, because it provoked him into
writing on the topic (or, maybe, it was the other way around?).  In
any case, one has to recognize that, simply because Michner's books
are, by definition, best-sellers, anything that he says about space is
going to be taken as gospel by much of the American reading public.
And, since so many people will read the book, it's likely that there 
will be an upsurge of interest in an unfortunately ignored field.

     The characters include several German immigrant scientists (with
a guest appearance by Wernher von Braun -- though real people do
appear, it's only briefly), a few test pilots who move into the
astronaut biz, their wives, and a number of Americans who are involved
with space from either a political or manufacturing viewpoint.  At
times, one feels like it's a sort of puppet play; you know in advance
the kinds of arguments that the pro- or anti-space politicos will
offer up.

     But some of the issues and behind-the-scenes battles are of the
sort that the public often doesn't recognize as important.  To my
mind, the crucial one that, to some extent, runs throughout the book,
is the debate about whether manned or unmanned space programs are
better, and for whom.  It's an issue that has numerous ramifications,
both politically and scientifically, and Michner covers it in great
depth.  He also touches several times on the desirability of the links
between the space program, industry, and the military, an equally 
important topic.

     Curiously, the book ends without a conclusion, with many of the
major characters attending a SETI conference in New England.  His
point, I suspect, is that there are a lot of unresolved issues tied
into space research, and that it's once again time for both America
and the world to consider them.

     Overall, I'd recommend the book.  It's not perfect, but it does a
good job.  I should also note that there is some, but not a lot,
attention paid to science fiction in the book.  In one scene set in
the early sixties, one astronaut tells a second how it was reading sf
that got him interested.  A part of the discussion is a rather
accurate critique of the sf of the fifties as being reactionary and 
sexist.  Unfortunately, the sf fan dies in a later lunar trip; his
last words are, "Blessed Saint Leibowitz, watch over me."  Post-1960
sf receives almost no consideration in the book.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 82 18:40:34-EST (Fri)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: My First SF Books

     I'm not quite sure where I started.  I was an early reader (3
1/2), and didn't keep any records of what I read by the time I
discovered libraries (5).  I suspect my earliest books were from the
Lucky Starr series by Paul French (Isaac Asimov) and from the Danny
Dunn series.  Not to mention, of course, the

Tom Swift books, both Senior and Junior.  The first real sf I remember
reading was one of the 'Mushroom Planet' books, which were great fun.
Also, around the same time (age 10), I was having a fight with the
local librarian -- I'd just finished "The Hobbit," and wanted to read
"The Lord of the Rings," but the latter was shelved as an "adult"
book, and I ended up having my mother take it out for me.
     There was also a lot of fantasy that I remember reading as a kid,
esp.  stuff by Evelyn Nesbit ("Five Children and It", "The Amulet",
etc.), Andre Norton (a truly unsung heroine of sf), the "Borrowers"
series [a new one of which just came out!], Edward Eager's books
("Knight's Castle," "Half Magic", and so on).  And, like most kids who
liked to read, I got the traditional diet of classics like "King
Solomon's Mines," "She", Jules Verne and H.G.Wells, Lewis Carroll, and
so on.
     I don't think it would really be possible to say that any one of
these "turned me on" to sf.  I was a kid in the fifties, when any
bright male was (thanks to Sputnik) encouraged to be interested in
science.  In my teen years, my already well-developed sf interest was
encouraged by a friend of the family who had once been married to
Judith Merrill, and who passed on many used maga- zines (that I was
too dumb to save, alas) and paperbacks.  What can definitely be said,
though, is that is was sf/fantasy, more than anything else, that
turned me on to reading.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1982 09:58 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Spock's coffin


        From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
        Subject: spock's coffin

         . . . was an EMPTY photon-torpedo casing.


        From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH at SRI-AI>
        Subject: Re: Spock's coffin

        An empty photon-torpedo casing?  I thought Spock was in it.

Of course! They just pretended Spock was in the casing, when really
he's in the galley icebox.  The Enterprise's next stop will be
Gallifree, where Dr Who will supervise the regeneration of Spock's
body, after which his personality will be downloaded (uploaded?) from
McCoy's brain.

                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1982 1012-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Spock's memory dump

        One effect of Spock's alledgedly dumping his mind into McCoy's
head that no one seems to have noticed: McCoy will never get Spock out
of his hair.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 82 19:15-EST (Thu)
From: Gerald Pocock <pocock.umass-coins@UDel-Relay>
Subject: more space rock

Here are some more songs that were missed.

Alien Chase on Arabian Desert  --  Al Dimeola <Splendido Hotel>
Vulcan Worlds                  --  Return to Forever < Where Have
                I Known You Before >

and of course there is that YES clone Starcastle where on there first
album they played such classics as:

Stargate,Sunfield,To The Firewind, and the ultimate NOVA < :-) >

and of course there was no mention I saw of America's all time
favorite band

         BLACK SABBATH

with their classic "Into the Void" <Rockets Engines Burning Full so
Fast, Up Into the Night Sky They Blast> from their album "MASTERS OF
REALITY" < they are hopefully kidding > and their album "PARANOID"
which contained such hits as "Iron Man" and "Electric Funeral".

These are definite HEAVY Sci-Fi music although I wouldn't recommend it
to anyone. <I listen to B.S. before I knew what Music was.  We all
have our past mistakes>
                                                Gerry Pocock
                                                Univ. of Mass.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1982 1518-EST
From: Susan L. Felshin <SP.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Space Classics...

At the last 4th of July concert in Boston, the Boston Pops (John
Williams conducting) played several movements of Holst's Planets
immediately followed by the Star Wars medley as an encore.  This
unfortunate (?) combination made the similarities between the two
pieces even more obvious than usual, not merely because of the nearly
identical themes, but also because of the instrumentation.  (Hmmm, I
wonder where Williams learned to like french horns....)

But what I really wanted to say is that it seems a bit silly to call
the Pachelbel Canon, etc. SF music merely because they were used by
Cosmos.  Are the Barber of Seville and Mendelsohn's Italian Symphony
bicycling music because of Breaking Away? Is the chase scene from the
William Tell Overture western music because of the Lone Ranger?  Does
anybody really believe that the Blue Danube Waltz is an SF classic
just because of 2001?  Each of the above pieces could fit equally well
in any number of entirely different contexts (not to mention the
original ones).  If one is looking for music that just *sounds*
science fictiony, a goodly portion of classic music fits the bill :
all it needs is the right context.

Cheers,
Sue F.,
PaFotSftPoRCD

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 82 17:34:31-EST (Fri)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Jefferson Starship interview

     Those who've been enjoying the "space rock" discussions in recent
issues should note the interview in the December issue of "Record" 
magazine with Paul Kantner and Grace Slick.  A few excerpts to whet 
your appetites . . .

RECORD:  Leaving aside politics, where might music go?

SLICK:  There is the machinery, though.  A lot of people say that the
machines are too cold, but it depends on who's using them.  This
sounds weird, but there's a tremendous spirit drive or something --
you can damn near make things operate for you.  They become animated,
almost, spiritually animated.  I'm not talking about Jesus, I'm
talking about the spirit, just the human spirit.

RECORD:  So maybe the '80s are about acquiring a healthy relationship
with machines.

SLICK:  Oh, yeah.  Get to know your machines, friends.  I went to have
a checkup, and the doctor didn't do anything.  They hook you up to a
whole shitload of machines.  The machines all said I was okay.  "Hey,
I'm in good shape--the machines said so!:" So I've got a song.  The
machines said I'm okay, and I'm real glad about that. . .

KANTNER:  Why didn't you use that on this album?

SLICK:  Because it's a high-tech kind of song, and it's not even
played by anybody -- it's ALL machinery.

KANTNER:  There was a novel called The Sheep Look Up, I think, by John
Brunner.  It was a follow-up to Stand on Zanzibar. . . . Part of the
song "I Came Back from the Jaws of the Dragon" deals with that.

[and so on...]

------------------------------

Date:     19 Nov 82 18:13:08-EST (Fri)
From:     David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  Space Rock -- general comments

     I'd like to agree with Don Woods' comment that many of the songs
and/or albums getting called "space rock" in recent issues really are
not so.  Titles that have astronomical tie-ins (like many classical
pieces), and songs that sound "spacy" really don't make it as "space
rock."  (Of course, that doesn't make them any less enjoyable to
listen to in whatever mental state one prefers.)

     The "Purple People Eater" that I recall had four eyes, not one.
Around the same time as that song was another real fantasy winner:
"Witch Doctor," which, though barely sf/fantasy in content, is still
worth remembering for the classic chorus "OOO, EEE, OOO, AH, AH, TING,
TANG, WALLA-WALLA BING BANG!"  Certainly a foreign language, at best.

     Here are a few others that, by lyric content, fit my view of
sf/fantasy rock:

"Uranian Sircus" from The Flock's "Dinosaur Swamp" album.  "The White
Ship", "The Time Machine", "At the Mountains of Madness", and
"Nothing's Boy" (featuring the voice of Ken Nordine), all by H. P.
Lovecraft

     Any number of songs by Jefferson Airplane/Starship, especially
the single (also out on a few bootlegs) "Have You Seen the Saucers?"

     Jethro Tull's 'Songs from the Wood' album is almost totally based
on traditional British folklore and Druidic legendry.  Their
'StormWatch' album is based on the concept that major problems could
arise in an energy-scarce future with Britain dependent on North Sea
Oil.  On the more recent 'A' album, several songs have future
settings, including "Fylingdale Flyer," in which the on-duty radar
crew at a major RAF base (Fylingdale Moors, up in Yorkshire) get to
see a UFO on their screens.

     Despite their spacy sound, not that many of Pink Floyd's works
are really sf in content.  "Welcome to the Machine," which several
people have already mentioned, is actually about the aggravation one
suffers by being in the rock and roll business (parallel to the Kinks'
album 'Lola vs. Powerman and the Money-go-Round' and the old Bonzo Dog
Band's stuff on the 'Keynsham' album).

     The short-lived group "Southwind" did a rock setting of
Heinlein/Rhysling's poem, "The Green Hills of Earth," on their one and
only album.

     Before they turned to heavy metal, the Irish folk-rock band
Horslips did a lot of work with traditional legend and folktale.  The
best example from them is the album "The Book of Invasions," which
derives its lyrics from the tales of the Tuatha de Danaan.

     On their double album "U," the Incredible String Band had a piece
called the "Robot Blues," which mixes equal doses of sf and comedy.

     Many of the Bonzo Dog Band albums contain sf stuff, such as the
songs "Look Out, There's a Monster Coming" from 'Gorilla', "Humanoid
Boogie" and "I'm the Urban Spaceman" (stretching it a bit there,
but...) from the 'Urban Spaceman' disk, and the old classic "Monster
Mash" on 'Tadpoles'.  Urban Spaceman fans should also note the cover
version done by Lea Nicholson with bass concertina and spoons on his
album 'HorseMusic'.

     A great sf/country farce song is the love ballad "Angeline,"
detailing in Nashville style (and British accents) a case of
inter-galactic exogamy; this one's on an album titled "He Came From
the Mountains," by British folkies Bob and Carole Pegg.

     Bob Johnson and Peter Knight, while members of Steeleye Span,
also put together a rock-opera version of Lord Dunsany's tale, "The
King of Elfland's Daughter," starring (among others) Christopher Lee
as the King and Mary Hopkin as the Daughter.

     One of the earliest adaptations of Tolkien's material was "Ring
Thing" on the 'Balaclava' album by Pearls Before Swine, which set the
poem about the various numbers of rings to music.

     English blues-rocker Graham Bond has done a great deal of work in
which the lyrics have to do with Magick.  Worth noting are the albums
'Holy Magick' and 'We Put Our Magick on You.'

     Another intriguing concept album is 'Beggar Julia's Time Trip',
by the Dutch band Ekseption.  Essentially, they use the time trip as
an excuse to rock up a number of classical pieces, but it's an
intriguing conceit.

     Bob Calvert (of Hawkwind) put together a near-sf concept album
called "Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters," which tells the tale
of the dangerous and mis-designed planes the Germans bought from the
US several years back.  He introduces a fantasy element via the
"Gremlin," sung by Arthur Brown (the Lord of Hell Fire himself), who
is the "real" cause of air accidents.

     And, of course, who could forget Creedence Clearwater Revival's
"It Came Out of the Sky"?  Or Donovan's "Season of the Witch"?

     Last, but far from least, there is the Philip Glass/Robert Wilson
opera "Einstein On the Beach."  The last scene, by the way, takes
place on board a spaceship.

     There's also a fair amount of spoken word material dealing with
sf and fantasy.  Nobody's noted Lord Buckley yet, but his re-tellings
of the tales of Jesus (especially "The Naz") in jazz terms are worth
noting.  So are some of the pieces done by Ken Nordine on his 'Word
Jazz' albums.

      A late sixties comedy group called the Congress of Wonders did
two things that fit here.  "Star Trip" is a Star Trek parody with a
few good lines and a lot of stale jokes.  "Pigeon Park" is a meeting
between two now-elderly members of the Grateful Dead in a drug-ruled
future, and is pretty amusing.

      The best sf-related comedy in the last few decades, though, has
got to be that of the Firesign Theatre.  "Le Trente-Huit Cunegonde,"
from their first album ('Waiting for the Electrician, or Someone Like
Him') is about a future where the druggies rule, and are almost done
wiping out the straights.  It draws liberally on the works of William
Burroughs for its imagery.

       Their later album "I Think We're all Bozos on this Bus" is set
at a future world's fair, with exhibits that nastily presage the
newly-opened Epcot.

      I think somebody's already noted their totally-sf piece,
"Everything You Know is Wrong," which deals with UFOs, Carlos
Casteneda, and Evel Knievel; this was also released as a movie, by the
way.

      Their latest sf-related work, "In the Next World, You're On Your
Own," is a sequel to "Everything...".  It's about four or five years
old now, but still holds its own.

      The various members of the group have also done solo albums, and
these, too, are often sf-related.  Of the solo stuff, the best are
Philip Austin's "Roller Maidens From Outer Space," David Ossman's "How
Time Flies" (which is not only sf, but ends with the Earth passing
through a black hole, causing it to move back in time to the start of
the record), and Proctor and Bergman's "TV or Not TV," about the
future when we're all wired.

     I'm sure there'll be other suggestions from other folks.  This is
enough from me on this topic.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #83
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1982 10:35PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #83
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 21 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 83

Today's Topics:
    Themes - shrinking
    Music - space classics
    Movies - Star Trek
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 November 1982 14:50-EST
From: Landon M. Dyer <ZEMON at MIT-AI>
Subject: Shrinking in SF



This is a rather transparent attempt to start another discussion.  I
don't know about you, but I'm a little bit bored with 'space rock' and
'memory dumps into McCoy's brain', and similar subjects.

What are the books/short stories/movies that have shrinking or
expanding as a central (or maybe not so central) theme?  By shrinking,
I mean devices or potions that will reduce a person, or another
object, substantially in size, while retaining most of the person's or
object's characteristics.  Needless to say, expansion works the
opposite way, even if the size of a 50-foot tall person's feet doesn't
follow the cube law.

Some titles, just off the top of my head:

Fantastic Voyage (Isaac Asimov, both the book and the movie)
Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine, by ?
Cold War in a Country Garden, by ?
Attack of the 50-foot Woman (a 50's movie, easily one of the worst I
have seen)
Land of the Giants (TV series, and spinoff books)
The Men Inside, by Barry Malzberg

Any others?

-Landon-

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 82 1:16:06-EST (Sat)
From: Michael Muuss <mike@BRL>
Subject: More on Space Classics;  INFO-MUSIC ??

Johann Pachelbel's Canon in D Major, while a strikingly beautiful
piece of music, hardly seems to be something to title "space
classical", except for it's use by various space-related shows (eg,
Cosmos).  In my opinion, the Musical Heritage Society recording (MHS
1060) is one of the best that can be had; the string players pluck
their instruments more than is customary for this piece of music, and
it adds a great deal of character to the music.  [I understand that
MHS actually obtained this recording from RCA some time ago].

Since the subject of classical music in "SF" has been broached, how
about Tommaso Albinoni's Adagio in G Minor for Strings and Organ
Continuo?  It was used most effectively in a "Space: 1999" episode.
This peaceful, almost stately, piece of Baroque organ music was used
as the background for a long, uneventful space voyage, yielding a very
effective portrayal of the tedium of sub-light speed space travel.  (I
believe that this episode concerned itself with the sole survivor of a
previous expedition to a "Sargasso of Space" in the outer Solar System
returning to fight the deadly creature that killed his companions by
incinerating them in it's stomach...).  An acceptable recording of
this music can be found on the Turnabout VOX label (TV 34135S,
"Baroque Organ Works").

All this talk of Music in SFL lately brings to mind the question of
whether the ArpaNet community should try and take the risk of running
an Info-Music list (Music-Lovers? ...) somewhere?  There is sufficient
activity on USENET newsgroups net.music and net.records et.al.  that
the Arpa community is missing that I would consider an Info-Music list
to be a valuable contribution to the suite of lists on the net.  I
suggest this with the recognition that such a suggestion flys in the 
face of DCA's rules for use of the ArpaNet.  Comments?
                        -Mike

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 82 15:50:37 EST  (Thu)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Space Classics...

  From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-20C>

  I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned Pachelbel's Kanon in
  D, which was immortalized in the first couple of episodes of Cosmos.

  --vaf

 . . . and is also played in the National Air & Space Museum's Langley
Theatre before each show. But then, this piece is SF-oriented only by
adoption.

------------------------------

(deleted)

I'll be interested in seeing what comments Jakubowski's clearly biased
views will provoke from SFL readers.  To my mind, though he claims to
avoid it, he's still falling into the trap of assuming that anything
with a "spacy" title or sound must be sf-related, and he's also
clearly fond of specific groups as well.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 82 21:46:46 EST  (Fri)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: Spock's coffin

uploaded from mccoy's brain (seems silly w/o capitalization).

it was a photon torpedo casing minus the photon torpedo plus spock's
body (minus a core dump (just before he died, did his brain have a bus
error? (core error, bus dumped! (hee hee)))).

oh well. more next-to-pointless speculation.
                                        -andy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 21-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #84
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1982 10:41PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #84
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 22 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 84

Today's Topics:
    Movies - Things to Come, Star Trek
    Authors - L. Ron Hubbard
    Music - space rock
    Art - inquiry
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21-Nov-82 17:59-PST
From: DAUL at OFFICE
Subject: Things To Come (from CINEFANTASTIQUE v13. n2 November 1982)

DUNE:  Underway Soon

Sets are under construction in Mexico for director David Lynch to film
Frank Herbert's sf classic.  Producer Dino DeLaurentiis has lined up
Albert Whitlock to handle matte paintings, Carlo Rambaldi to build the
"sand-worms," and Industrial Light & Magic to create a variety of
optical effects.  The final budget is still sketchy, but may reach $40
million.

Revenge Of The Jedi

Good mini-article about the 32.5 million dollar epic.  It is centered
around the monster shop needed for the creation of all the creatures
we will see in the film.


Main Feature Of This Edition

   E.T.

   KRULL

   The Thing

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 82 18:25:53-EST (Sun)
From: Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
Subject: SF Related music

This is a bit late, but..

The instrumental "Telstar" was by a group known as the Tornados.  The
album was released on London records.  They had one other minor hit
entitled "Riding the Wind" which didn't make it too big.

Has anyone bothered to mention the "War of the Worlds" double album 
that Richard Burton did the narration for?  I've seen it out as a 
half-speed mastered album just recently.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 82 20:00:35 EST  (Sun)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: space rock, L. Ron Hubbard, etc.

Concerning space rock: did anyone mention 'Starlight Dancer' by (I
think) Kayak? Also, I think Vangelis is worth noting, especially the
piece played on Cosmos. It is 'spacey,' sort of, even if it does have
a religious name (Heaven and Earth? Heaven and Hell?) And do you
remember that the flying purple people eater wanted to be in a Rock 'n
Roll band, and died out because there were no purple people for him to
eat?

About Battlefield Earth, by L. Ron Hubbard: my brother absolutely
RAVED about it, told me it was the most fantastic book ever written,
or something like that. Of course, he is a Scientology fanatic. I
don't know anything about Hubbard being dead, but if I asked my
brother, I'm sure he would say it was a plot by the FBI, the CIA, the
IRS and the FDA (and maybe a few others). Does anyone know any more?
It sounds fascinating. (Howard Hughes lives!!)

                                        - rene

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1982 1325-PST
Subject: Space rock
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

I think what this discussion needs is a good label.  In the music 
business, the term "hi fi" became a term used only derogatorily with
regard to quality recorded music.  Similarly, "sci fi" is now used
only by ignorami or, again, derogatorily towards films and mainstream
novels.  So let me suggest "spa fi" as a derogatory term to be applied
to space rock music that isn't true to the origins of SF in any of the
various ways discussed on this list recently.  Remember, you heard it
here first.

        Mike <Leavitt at USC-ISI>

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1982 16:42 PST
From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF in Music
Reply-to: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC

A song which should not be overlooked is Pearls Before Swines' "Rocket
Man" (no not the same as Elton John's).  It is sung by the son of a 
spaceship pilot who had died in space, and explores his emotional 
reaction to the death, starting with avoidance of the night sky:

        My mother and I never went out,
        Unless the sky was cloudy or the moon was shining bright....

Perhaps a bit oversimplifying of emotions, but I was touched by it.

Lawrerence

P.S. Could this be the next century's equivilent to a country/western 
tearjerker?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1982 16:58 PST
From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Inquiry on SF Art
Reply-to: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC


I am searching for a series of black and white prints of spaceship 
interiors which I saw about ten years ago.  Although clearly 
spacecraft, these were modeled after classical Greek and Roman 
buildings (and the large body of classical prints of such buildings).
I have not seen this work on any book or maganzine covers. If anyone 
knows of where I can obtain such prints (or reproductions of them), I 
would be most grateful.  Any information, especially the artist's 
name, would also be very helpful.

I saw the prints at a World Science Fiction Convention I attended at 
the Shoreham Hotel(I believe) in Washington, D.C.  This was the summer
of 1973.  At the time, I did not have the resources to purchase a 
print; I would now like to buy one if possible, or at least see them 
again.

Lawrerence

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 1982 2021-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: TWOK, Truth stranger than fiction

        I was talking with a couple of hacker friends a few nights
back, shooting the breeze about great goofs we had done in the past.
Suddenly, I remembered a classic goof I pulled while at DEC that
predates the Command Console Prefix in the Wrath of Kahn.

        A couple of years back, a DEC salesman had the bad habit of
occupying my office and terminal during lunch hour if I wasn't there
to stop him.  I came in late one morning to find him ingrossed in a
Star Trek game.

        He refused to relenquish my terminal, and to add insult to
injury, his sandwich was leaking all over a document that I had spent
all night printing on the word processor.

        I decided it was time to act.

        I went to another terminal, logged in, got a copy of the Star
Trek game and made not of a few key locations.  I then popped into the
monitor, locked down his address space, and proceeded to modify his
core image.

        Suddenly, his shields went down, his power was exhausted, all
devices were inactive, and he was destroyed in short order.

        I didn't have any problems keeping him out of my office in the
future.

-HWM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #85
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, November 22, 1982 9:24PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #85
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 23 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 85

Today's Topics:
    Music - space rock and classics
    Authors - L. Ron Hubbard, Michener spelling
    Books - CHILDHOOD'S  END spoiler
    Movies - Review of The Last Unicorn
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1982 1019-PST
From: Tom Wadlow <TAW at S1-A>
Subject: *Real* SF Classics

I am willing to allow that the music from Cosmos is not SF music
simply because it was used in Cosmos, and that the Barber of Seville
and all the rest are not bicycling music simply because of Breaking
Away, but the Blue Danube *is* an SF classic because of 2001.  I
wonder if I will ever hear that piece and not think of that space
station, spinning gracefully around the Earth...?? --Tom

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1982 09:45 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Latest on L. Ron Hubbard

A radio news item this morning says that Mrs. L. Ron Hubbard states
that Mr. L.  Ron Hubbbard is neither dead nor incapacitated.

Seems she hasn't seen him since 1979, though....

------------------------------

Date: 22 November 1982 1338-EST (Monday)
From: Dan Hoey at CMU-CS-A
Subject: James (A.) Mich(e)ner

Recent digests have referred to an author named James Michner (sic).
I am aware of an author named James Albert Michener; I have read his
name on the outside of several very thick books.  Is the author of
Space a different person?  Or has somebody managed to get through one
of those vtb's without getting his name right?  Or, horrors, are we
the victims of an automatic spelling program gone amok?  In the header
of #80, there was even a cryptic reference to Micher!
                        Da Hy

[I confess that it was an editorial error. The name is indeed 
Michener.  I seem to recall reading one of his books about 12 years 
ago, THE DRIFTERS, and thinking it was quite good: a bunch of young 
people wandering around Europe. -- Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1982 1717-PST
From: Don Voreck <VORECK at USC-ISIB>
Subject: After the Gold Rush [Childhood's End]



    Someone already mentioned Neil Young's "After The Gold Rush" as
space rock, but I was wondering if anyone aside from myself has
noticed that one of the verses is an apparent description of Arthur C.
Clark's book "Childhood's End".

   Here are the lyrics to the relevant verse from memory (so they may
be a tad off) .......


            Well,  I dreamed I saw the silver space ships flying
               in the yellow haze of the sun.
            There were children crying and colors flying
               all around the chosen ones.
            All in a dream, all in a dream
               the loading had begun.
            Flying mother natures silver seed
               to a new home in the sun.
            Flying mother natures silver seed
               to a new home in the sun.


********** CHILDHOOD'S END SPOILER. YOU MAY WANT TO SKIP THE
********** REST OF THIS MESSAGE.

     "Childhood's End" is a great book which I recommend highly.  What
follows is definitely a giveaway of the entire plot.  Again from
memory and I read the book over 4 years ago.
     The book opens with silver flying saucers stationing themselves
directly over various capitals and major cities all over the world.
The space ships cannot be destroyed by earthly weapons, and they
prevent warring between nations by destroying in flight missiles.
     The saucers make a short broadcast over all radio and T.V.
stations saying that there intentions are not hostile and that they
will act as moderator to make sure that mankind does not war with
itself or destroy it self.  The press dubs them "The Overlords".
     One of the more aggressive nations succeeds in exploding a
nuclear bomb on a space ship over its enemies capital. The saucer some
how absorbed the blast and prevented damage to itself and the city.
After this the world resigns itself to 3 or 4 generations of peaceful
productive living .......
     Then we find out why the Overlords real purpose. It starts with
an average child in an average family having unusual and insightful
dreams of creatures and other planets far beyond the childs experience
or imagination.  The child also gradually and subtly starts to gain
strange powers of ESP and tele-kinetics (moving objects by thought).
An analogy is drawn by the author between this child and a seed in a
culture, or the first crystal in a super saturated solution causing
other crystals to form around it .  Soon other children are also
affected the same way.  These changes also effect the childrens
personalities as their powers become so strong that they can easily
move large objects and read minds.  It starts to become clear to the
parents and to the world that their children are being taken away from
them.  Soon all of the children of the world under a certain age have
been affected.
    In an earlier time in earth's history mankind would have reacted
violently but due to prolonged peace on earth mankind's attitudes had
changed slightly.  Man was still powerless against the Overlords
anyway.
    Finally the the spaceships land for the first time and the
children voluntarily go to the spaceships and are loaded aboard to
protect them from their parents. The children are drawn to the ships
by their new found powers.  Mankind is left to die as its last
generation grows old. The spaceships leave with the children
.....................

   Flying mother natures silver seed .........    ?

   Comments?

Don

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 82 20:33-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Review: The Last Unicorn

By RICHARD FREEDMAN, Newhouse News Service

    (UNDATED) Among the magic properties of unicorns is their uncanny 
ability to star in distinguished animated cartoons.
    Several years ago, James Thurber's satiric ''Unicorn in the
Garden'' was made into a delightful short, and now Peter S. Beagle's
gentle ''The Last Unicorn'' is the heroine of an equally appealing 
feature-length film.
    Equipped with the voice of Mia Farrow and perhaps longer, sexier 
eyelashes than she needs, this unicorn prances through an enchanted 
medieval woodland in search of her companions who have all 
mysteriously disappeared.
    On orders from gaunt, ashen-faced King Haggard (Christopher Lee), 
they've been herded into the sea by the flaming, minotaurlike Red 
Bull.
    Our unicorn enlists the aid of inept Schmendrick the Magician
(Alan Arkin), self-proclaimed ''last of the red-hot Swamis,'' to help
her find and rescue her race.
    In the classic formula of the medieval quest, this distinctly odd 
couple undergoes many adventures, ranging from encounters with Robin 
Hood and a wicked, gnarled old gypsy named Mommy Fortune (Angela 
Lansbury) to a peg-legged pirate cat with a red eyepatch (Paul Frees) 
and a talking skeleton (Rene Auberjonois).
    They're accompanied by depressed housewife Molly Grue (Tammy 
Grimes), but there's nothing depressing about this truly enchanted 
fable.
    From the opening credits - a cartoon version of the Cloister's 
Unicorn tapestry - to the lyrical, rueful finale of the unicorns 
disporting themselves among the waves, this poetic film is as superior
to the usual Saturday morning cartoon fare on television as T.S. Eliot
is to Rod McKuen.
    ''The Last Unicorn'' is not, however, without its occasional
lapses of taste. The team of animators headed by Katsuhisa Yamada have
made the heroine - especially when she is briefly transformed by 
Schmendrick into human form - more cloyingly pretty than she needs to 
be. And the adenoidal singing of the Jimmy Webb score by America on 
the soundtrack doesn't help much.
    But all in all this is the finest animated feature in years,
dealing with such very grownup metaphysical issues as illusion vs.
reality, human mortality vs. mythic immortality, and the inextricable 
combination of love and regret.
    A tall order, perhaps beyond the grasp of very small children, but
so beautifully visualized that ''The Last Unicorn'' is one cartoon no 
adult need squirm through.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #86
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1982 9:04PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #86
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 24 Nov 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:
    Themes - shrinking
    Books - Moorcock's BYZANTIUM ENDURES, Jakubowski's Music & Opera in
	    Nicholls' Encyclopedia, Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END **spoiler**,
	    sequelitis
    Query - explosive decompression
    Movies - Dark Crystal, tiresome SF-Rock
    Music - Danube, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 November 1982 01:09-EST
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: shrinking

  Good idea!  I am so tired of all these tedious messages about rock
music!
  In addition to the stories already mentioned there is
'Submicroscopic', and its sequel 'Awlo of Ulm', both written by Capt.
S. P. Meek and originally published in 1931.  I found them in book one
of 'Before the Golden Age', an anthology editied by Isaac Asimov,
published in 1975.  A sportsman builds a shrinking machine, so he can
go big-game-hunting for ants.  He has a hard time turning it off, and
finally he finds himself in a beautiful valley in which he rescues a
fair maiden in distress, etc...  Everyone speaks Hawaiian there.  Lots
of laughs, although it appears to have been intendend as a serious
story.
  Another old favorite involved a fellow who was forced to shrink by a
mad scientist, and shrinks through level after level of
atoms-that-are- really-solar-systems.  Does anyone recall what this
was called and who it was by?  I think it may have been called 'He Who
Shrank'.
  There was another story I recall even less of.  It had something to
do with someone who mined gold from a tiny piece of quartz.
  Not strictly part of this genre, there is James Blish's 'Surface
Tension' about some biologists who crash on a watery planet, and
create microscopic, but still human, descendants.
  Hoping Spock stays dead...
                            ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 0702-PST
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Shrinking

   The Legion of Super Heroes comic series featured Shrinking Violet (
female) and Colossal Boy.  DC also had The Atom, who could vary his 
weight independent of his size.  Marvel had Antman, who later decided 
to use his power in the other direction, and changed his name to
Goliath.
   I recall a Lost in Space in which the robot was enlarged by strange
radiation, and Will and Dr. Smith went inside to perform some sort of 
repair.
   How about "The Phantom Planet"?  The hero crashes, and his helmet 
visor is cracked.  Upon breathing the alien atmosphere, he shrinks!  
He becomes involved in the war between the tiny humans and the evil 
Solaroids.
   Then there was "Dr. Cyclops", the mad scientist who experimented on
passers-by at his South American (?) hideaway.  He delighted in
reducing them and then chasing them around the room.
   Does "Tron" qualify for this discussion?

   The Incredible Shrinking Man lives!

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 23 November 1982 16:56 mst
From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard)
Subject: shrinking in SF
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS

In Harry Harrison's new "The Stainless Steel Rat for President",
diGriz makes use of a device which removes 90% of the molecules in an
object, causing it to be miniaturized.

------------------------------

From:	"VIDEO::Powers c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	11-NOV-1982 12:08  
Subj:	LIFE IS A SEQUEL; DR. WHO

with regard to sequels: I find that stories which tie up all the loose
ends lack a certain credibility.  Plots and/or situations can either
dead-end or continue; life always goes on.  Stories with particularly
dramatic finales (that is, where the loose ends get really tied down)
create new loose ends.  Orson Scott Card's first story in Analog (late
1976/ early 1977?), "Ender's Game," is a case in point.  The tactical
genius, Ender, defeats the alien race on its own world, closing the
book on the interstellar war.  The Earth is saved.  So what happens to
Ender?  (By this time he's 6?  9?  12 years old?) What happens to the
hundreds/thousands of kids in the "find us a military genius" program?
The case is closed.  Sure, we could have a sequel, but the entire
tenor of the times has to change; the thrust of the story has to be
redirected.  I suspect it's not worth re-educating the audience to ap-
preciate the old players on the new stage.  Also, maybe we should dis-
tinguish "sequels" from "episodes." Star Wars is sequential; Star Trek
(and most other situation comedies) are episodic.

as for Dr.  Who: The current Dr.  Who series in our area is the Keys
of Time series, copyright 1978.  The earliest Tom Baker episodes I re-
member are in the '73/'74 (copyright) time frame.  (We had these
stateside in '76/'77.)  The previous Dr.  Who was Jon Pertwee.  Don
atheson's comments on the new Who (SFL v6, 61: "no hat...  scarf...
pockets") are reminiscent of my thoughts when the old Who transmogri-
fied into the new Who.  Pertwee/Who was a bit of a dishevelled dandy;
starched collar and black tails; no hat, no pockets.  He was rather
sterner and less pixy-ish than Baker/Who, though no less impatient
with his lessers.  (This is the Who of the early Who book series, with
the Daleks and the like.) The transition was mildly distracting.  To
the point on regeneration: yes, Time Lords who experience a really
dreadful physical trauma can regenerate themselves.  Pertwee/Who
changed into Baker/Who (clothes and all) in a lap dissolve as a result
of some massive dose of radiation (and perhaps a contract dispute),
fatal to even a Time Lord.  A one-time coworker who worked in England
during the '60s once told me that there have been several (as many as
seven?)  Whos by this method.  As I recall, during the lap dissolve
there was a fade-over of several anguished faces, all different, which
were purported by this coworker to be the litany of previous Whos.
Re-Birth Trauma after 750 years?  (By the way, who is playing the new
Who?)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 0713-PST
Subject: Moorcock's BYZANTIUM ENDURES
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)

I was inspired by the recent Moorcock discussions to pick up the 
subject book from the local library SF shelves.  Reading the jacket
blurb led me to believe it was an alternate-universe book set (mainly)
in revolutionary Russia.  Be warned!  It is NOT SF!  It is merely an
historical novel.  The only way it could be considered
"alternate-universe" is the same way that any historical fiction could
be -- it presupposes the past existence of characters who really were
not there.

I am going to put a note with it when I return it asking that the 
library reclassify it as ordinary fiction, but I doubt that they will
bother.

The Cornelius business shows up in this one, too; one of the 
characters is "Honoria Cornelius", a Cockney woman who interacts from
time to time with the protagonist.

Moorcock completionists will probably want this, but SF readers won't.

Will Martin

(Moorcock, Michael; BYZANTIUM ENDURES, Random House, 1981)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 08:56 EST
Subject: re: Jakubowski's Music & Opera
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-Maxc>

Dave is right, Jakubowski does like to make sf-rock out of anything
with a spacey name.  Most obvious to me was his inclusion Pink Floyd's
"Atom Heart Mother" and "Dark Side of the Moon", which are distinctly
NOT science fiction, while he made no mention of "Relics" (1971?),
which contains some of the sf-type stuff from their earlier albums.
His lists appear as if he never listened to most of the works he
mentions, but rather relied on a record store catalog and the backs of
the albums in the library's classics collection.  He also seems to
have totally missed new wave groups : Devo's first albums were
appearing at the apparent time of writing, and those were more sf
oriented than some of the albums he recited.  (Jakubowski also seems
to have a theasaurus of reviewers cliches)
                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon Nov 22 1982 18:19:25 PST
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-UNIX>
Subject: Explosive Decompression

Greetings.  Over the years, various Science-Fiction movies have
depicted the results of "stepping outside for a minute" in rather
different manners.

In "Outland", for example, we were "treated" to people exploding (in a
rather disgusting fashion) immediately upon exposure to vacuum.
However, in "2001", our hero spent a number of seconds in vacuum, part
of the time with his eyes open, and managed to survive long enough to
pull an emergency compression lever.  He also managed to survive the
rapid recompression.

The Question:  Which of these scenarios is closest to the truth?  How
long CAN someone survive in space under such conditions?  I know that
there have been some experiments on this topic over the years... does
anyone know the results of these?

The next time I get thrown from a spaceship by a large, burly guard
who keeps bellowing, "Resistance is useless!!!", how long should I
expect to last?  Thanks.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 0751-PST
From: Brent Hailpern <CSL.SSO.BTH at SU-SCORE>
Subject: Dark Crystal, tiresome SF-Rock

This weekend I heard a promo (during hgttg) that Dark Crystal, the 
movie would premere in New York on Dec. 13th.  Channel 13 would give 
you tickets for free if you gave them enough $$$.

I have seen the book on the shelves, but have not read it.  Is it any 
good?

FLAME

I am getting very tired of the SF-Rock discussion, but I understand 
that others are fascinated by it -- I was particullarly annoyed at the
reprinted magazine article -- it took for ever to ignore at 300 baud.
Could we reach some compromise on this?  Perhaps collecting the music 
stuff in bunches and shipping it every other day in its own digest, 
easily skipped.  Or even putting it at the end of the digest with a 
header similar to the spoiler warnings.

EMALF

[I will try to keep the music discussion at the end of the digests.
As a general rule, extensive discussions of any sort will go at the
end. Same for movie reviews from the press. --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 1228-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Clarke's "Childhood's End"--CORRECTION/**SPOILER**

Contrary to the message from Don Voreck giving the plot to 
"Childhood's End", the children do NOT leave in spaceships. They 
advance beyond the need for bodies and transcend the material level of
existence, destroying the Earth as a pupa destroys it cocoon.

Voreck's plot outline leaves out some three-quarters of the plot 
development of Clarke's novel, including a tie-in of the Overlords and
human religions, and a visit to the Overlords' home world.

------------------------------

Date: 23 November 1982  15:41-EST (Tuesday)
From: The One and Only Mijjil {Matthew J Lecin} <LECIN at RU-GREEN>
Subject: sf music?
Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers

I would think that SOMEONE would remember that there is a fair share 
of country/western sf music as well - how about Bobby Bare's "Last 
Truck Driving Man"?

There is of course, all the unmentioned THEME music from all of our 
favourite series - Star Trek, Outer Limits, Twilight Zone - even Lost 
In Space (mentioned that one for you, Lauren)...

What about Gary Numan?  (With or WITHOUT the "Tubeway Army"?  Or do I 
vaguely remember someone already mentioning them?)

What about the music to "Lathe of Heaven"?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 1536-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Blue Danube -- SF???

The Blue Danube has been used as backdrop music for SOOOO many NON-SF
things that it is wrong to classify it as SF.  I'm sorry, but even
though I've seen 2001, when *I* hear it, I tend to think of old Warner
Bros. cartoons where the song was often used as a backdrop for birds
swimming on a lake (quacking away as they swam), rather than one
segment of an awesome movie.

--Lynn

------------------------------

From:	"EVE::SPENCER c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	4-NOV-1982 13:54  
Subj:	Some trivia for SFL
 
Some time back, comments were made about the non-release of Vangelis'
score from BLADERUNNER. It has been released...as the movie score for
BLADERUNNER. I found a copy in the movie section at Strawberries in
Harvard Square.

------------------------------

From:	"WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 18-Nov-1982
Subject: SF songs

I have heard two SF (or at least astronomical) songs which no one here
seems to have listed yet.  What was a little remarkable was that I
heard them both in the same evening, on two ubrealted TV shows.

The first appeared on the Muppet Show, and had the refrain "Bold is
the ship bound for Alpha Centauri."  And that's all I remember, except
taht the melody was minor-key and ballad-like and the mood was essentially
romantic. (Something in there like, "Her captains are poets and lovers
and clowns.")

The other song appeared on Walter Cronkheit's Universe (one of the more
megalomanica titles, up there with Carl Sagan's Cosmos).  It is entitled
"Lament for a Red Planet" (which is also the title of a chapter/installment
of Carl Sagan's Cosmos, though I don't know which came first.  Come to 
think of it, Sagan's title was "Blues for a Red Planet.")  Anyway, it was
written by a science journalist and based on the apparently dry river beds
visible on the surface of Mars.  It starts:

Ten thousand times a hundred thousand dusty years ago,
My river ran where now the Plain of Gold extends.

It ends:

My ocher cliffs and unber rocks stand silent and serene,
But, O my wan and wasted world, I miss your blue and green.

I consider it a remarkable song, because (1) it was pretty good and
(2) it was really just about science.  There is precious little poetry,
much less song, about science that rises above the level of:

There was a young lady named Bright
Whose speed was much faster than light.
She set out one day
In a relative way
And returned on the previous night.

George Gamow wrote an opera based on Faust and concerned with the
prediciton and discovery of the neutrion, but, too, was farcical.

While we're listing SF and fantasy songs, does anyone know of any more
science songs?  or poems?  If you think the topic is inappropriate to
this column (and it con't be much worse than Pacman jokes), send VAXmail
to MERLIN::WAJENBERG, if you can.

------------------------------

From:	"WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 18-Nov-1982
Subject: SF musical comedy

This summer, I saw a very-far-off-Broadway musical comedy that was
completely science fictional.  It was called The Maxwells of Rotek, and
was put on by an amature theatricals group out here in the wilds of New
Hampshire.  However, the director-author winters in New York, so you
may someday hear of this play ON Broadway.

The Maxwells are a reasonablly normal family of humans living in
the far future.  they are in the family starship, on the way to
Dad's new job, when they are marooned on Rotek, a small, blue,
cubical planet.  (This will give you an idea of how serious this
play is.)

Three faces of Rotek are inhabited by Rotekians, played (in this
instance) by high school and junior high school kids.  You tell
humans from Rotekians by the fact that humans dress in white and green,
while Rotekians dress in white and purple.  Also, Rotekians have
short white antennae, with which they can read the thoughts of
any person with whom they fall in love.

The Rotekians are ruled by a monarchy, but the heir runs away
about the same time that the Maxwells crash, meets them (on one
of the uninhabited faces) and falls in love with their teenage
daughter.  (And therefore begins reading her thoughts.)

The plot complications arise from the other two faces of the planet,
inhabited by a villainess in gold lamee, and her hordes of vorpods.
Vorpods are two-headed, three-legged creatures, played by two kids
each, in some rather imaginative costuming.

I won't go on with this, except to say that the play is indeed
funny, would porbably be even funnier with seasoned adult actors
(not that these kids were slouches), and is full of songs.  One of
the most science fictional is sung by the family robot, who is
rather above the people it serves.  It complains at the beginning
of the song, "Here I am am, the latest in home electronics, wasted
on a pack of Earthlings," and later, "I could be analysing soil samples
from the Martina plains, but here I'm stuck with Pacman and stubborn
stains."  He is obviously related to Marvin, from HHG.

A couple of the songs, about being lost and missing Earth, are
really rather touching, and the Rotekian national anthem is very
funny. ("Hail Rotek! Fair Rotek! Small and square and fair and blue!")
------------------------------

From:	"MARKET::RTILLSON c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	16-NOV-1982 11:22  
Subj:	More SF Rock

For the record, '39 was written by Brian May, Queen's guitarist, not
Freddie Mercury.  It is the only acoustic number I have seen them do
in concert.  All of the band members have technical or engineering
degrees of some sort, and one (Mercury, I think) has a physics degree.
The album with the Kelly Freas cover was News of the World, the band's
sixth album.  In my opinion, the song '39 (from the Night at the Opera
album) is one of the most subtle SF-oriented songs I have heard.
 
Other SF songs I haven't seen mentioned yet -
 
Narnia - by Steve Hacket, formerly of Genesis
 
Space Truckin' - Deep Purple
 
Space Cowboy - Steve Miller	
 
Not rock, but worth mentioning:
 
Holst's "The Planets"
 
 
/rmt
 
------------------------------

From:	"HARDY::GLASSER c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	18-Nov-82 20:33
Subject: Space Rock

I missed the beginning of the "Space Rock" discussions, but I've not
seen mention of several notables, such as Hawkwind, Pink Floyd, Mike
Oldfield, and The Five Man Electrical Band.

Almost all of Hawkwind's music was "Space Rock".  Pink Floyd did
"Interstellar Overdrive", among others.  "Platinum" is Mike Oldfields
contribution, and the Five Man Electrical band did "I'm A Stranger Here".

I also have works in my tape library including such cuts as "The Black
Hole Blues", "The Star Trek Blues" and such, but I don't recall the
artists.  Negative Land did a space-rock album and there are still
more that I can't think of right off.  If anybody wants a list, I'll
collect and submit it.

						Daniel Glasser

------------------------------

From:	"PAUL KARGER AT ULTRA c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 08-Nov-1982
Subject: ice cream freezers in SW/TESB

Ice cream freezers???  What ice cream freezers in SW/TESB????????

	Paul Karger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 24-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #87
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1982 8:51PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #87
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 25 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 87

Today's Topics:
    Books - Chalker's THE FOUR LORDS OF THE DIAMOND tetralogy
	    Harrison's THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT
    Query - explosive decompression
    Themes - shrinking in
    Music - country-western SF, Bladerunner, etc.
    Movies - Star Trek inconsistencies
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 82 23:01-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Chalker's The Four Lords of the Diamond tetralogy

Has anyone out there read it (or what's been published so far)... any
opinions? How about his "Wellworld" series?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 10:24 EST
From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Subject: re: "The Stainless Steel Rat for President"

As a Slippery Jim fan, your mention of a new Stainless Steel Rat book
has got my attention, and sparked a few questions :

        Is this out in paperback yet?
        Who publishes it?
                ..and most importantly..
        Where can I get a copy? (does anyone know of someplace in
                the Rochester area?)

                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 09:32 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #86


Regarding the question of "explosive decompression".  The sequence in
2001 follows the script Arthur C. Clarke has used a number of times
(well, maybe twice).  Clarke is involved with rocketry stuff in real
life, so maybe he knows what he's talking about.  In any event, I have
seen articles by various "authorities" which support Clarke's version.

Might check with the people on XeroxSpace^.pa.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 82 14:59:05-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Shrinking in sf

Let's not forget dear li'l Alice, both in Wonderland and in
Looking-Glass land, who underwent many metamorphoses of size.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 1832-EST
From: Nat Feldman <FELDMAN at NLM-MCS>
Subject: Shrinking and Growing

Movies: The Incredible Shrinking Man
        The Incredible Shrinking Woman
        The Collossus of New York
                (or some such city, NOT of the Forbin project)
        The Fly and sequels (The fly grew, and the human shrank; going
                                by the heads.)

Television: Star Trek "The Immunity Syndrome" (giant ameoba)
            Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea - Untold numbers of giant
                jellyfish plankton, et cetera.

Comics: The story of finding of a subatomic solar system has been used
at least twice in Marvel comics, as I remember.  The first was an
early Fantastic Four or some other scientist-based story.  The other
was an ongoing series in The Hulk.  This system was populated by green
skinned individuals who were rescued by the Hulk and adored him.  He
fell in love with Jarella the beautiful green princess of the saved
world, and she flipped for him as well.  After separating and
reuniting the lovers, the Marvel people killed off Jarella leaving the
Hulk more than a bit miffed when he arrived back at our size.  Of
course the Hulk himself is an example of a person growing (Bruce
Banner to the Hulk) for our discussion.  Also, in DC comics one must
mention The Atom, one on each of Earth-1 and Earth-2.  I suppose there
may be more Earths by this time.

A good choice of topics.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 20:07:18 CST (Tuesday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Spa Fi

Let us add to the list:

    The Sirens of Titan, by Al (the real) Stewart, on Modern Times
and
    Those Big-eyed-beans from Venus, by Captain Beefheart.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 10:21 EST
Subject: Muppet Country/Western SF Rock Music
From: Bill Stevenson <Stevenson.wbst>

Re:
    "The first appeared on the Muppet Show, and had the refrain 'Bold
    is the ship bound for Alpha Centauri.'"
    - "WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>

That's "We Must Believe in Magic", sung by Crystal Gayle.

We must believe in magic
We must believe in the guiding hand
If you believe in magic
You'll have the universe at your command

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 09:16 PST
From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF Country-Western

SF Country-Western?  How about Asleep at the Wheel's "Space Buggy":

Had a race with a meteorite, my space buggy it won that fight...  Had 
a date with a man from Mars, my space buggy, it don't go that far..  
etc., etc....

Lawrerence

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 12:59:34 EST (Wednesday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: BLADERUNNER ALBUM WARNING!

   Read the cover carefully!  This is NOT the soundtrack of the movie,
but an orchestral rendition of the music from the movie.  I have not 
yet heard a report on whether or not the album is worth having on its 
own merits.
 -WBE

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 1451-PST
From: Ross Finlayson <RSF at SU-AI>
Subject: More SF rock (sigh...)

        I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this song already, but I
have recently heard heard local radio stations playing a
"reggae-sounding" song called "IGY" (International Geophysical Year?),
sung by Donald Fagan. The song is not particularly good, but it
describes things such as wheel-shaped space stations, and underground
trains capable of travelling from New York to Paris in 90 minutes.

        Ross.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1982 2335-EST
From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: ST2WOK; inconsistencies; your opinion

Now that I got the cassette, I have a chance to check on the
things that have bugged the Hell out of me about WOK:
1.      Dates
2.      Ceti-Alpha planetary system

DATES:
        When "Bones" gives Kirk the bootleg booze, Kirk looks at
it's label and says, apreciatively, "2283", in the same tone one
comments on 35-year old Scotch (not 23 minute old Gallo).  Bones
additionally makes the remark that it takes a while to ferment.

The problem is this:  the picture opens with the statement:
        IN THE 23RD CENTURY...
And the "Captain's" log of the Enterprise, and the First Officer's
log of the Reliant, both specify a Stardate of 81xx.yy, making the
year to be 2281.

CETI-ALPHI START SYSTEM:

This has bugged me since the first the premier of WOK.  They are
headed for planet #6.  They land on Planet #5, but think it is
#6.  Why?  If #6 exploded, that makes #7 (if it exists) the
new #6 (in numbering rather than orbits), but does not change
#5.  In any event the explosion would indeed, as Khan stated,
have shifted the orbit of at least #5, now placing it in
a new orbit (but not that of #6).  This certainly would have
been noted by astronomers SOMEWHERE (it was, after all,
14.5 years before the action of WOK).  So, again I ask, how
can the Reliant land on CETI-ALPHA-5 thinking it is C-A-6?
Sound to me like someone should petition Starfleet to revoke
a few licenses!

-reed

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 25-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #88
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1982 11:02PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #88
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 26 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 88

Today's Topics:
    Themes - shrinking, explosive decompression
    Books - Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun
    Radio - A Canticle for Lebowitz
    Movies - Dark Crystal, Star Wars/TESB, Star Trek
    Music - space classics    
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 82 18:02:15 EST  (Tue)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Shrinking in SF

    From: Landon M. Dyer <ZEMON at MIT-AI>

    What are the books/short stories/movies that have shrinking or
    expanding as a central (or maybe not so central) theme?

    -Landon-

The obvious one is ``The [Incredible] Shrinking Man'', (I'm not sure
of the presence of the word ``incredible'' in the title) a 50's black
& white film which is actually quite good for this sort of thing. The
reason the hero starts shrinking is a little hokey: he is exposed to a
``mysterious cloud of fog'', but the effects used to show him getting
smaller, and people's reactions to it were well portrayed. What's
unusual about this movie is that the hero is neither cured nor killed,
but at the end of the movie is left on his own to fend for himself, no
longer a member of human society.

Lilly Tomlin recently did a remake of the movie. (s/man/wo&/ in the
title)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1982 1132-MST
From: William Galway <Galway at UTAH-20>
Subject: Shrinking people

Two childrens stories come to mind--however it's been a long time so
I'll only be able to give a rough description of the plots:

Story #1.

The main characters here are a boy and a seagull.  The boy has some 
accident (something like falling out of a tree), and starts to shrink.
When he gets down to something like an inch or so high, he meets a 
seagull (named Gus?), and strikes up a friendship.  My impression of 
Gus is that he's rather steet-wise, probably from New York.  At some 
point the boy is approached by some government agent (?), (or his 
father?), and told about an evil mad (and European) scientist who's 
invented a powerful new explosive.  As I recall, the scientist has 
created about a vitamin pill's worth of the stuff and, to prove he 
means business, has exploded one tiny little piece of that with 
results comparable to the Hiroshima bomb.

The boy and Gus agree to try stealing the explosive, are outfitted for
the flight across the Atlantic, and go for it.  They spend some time 
playing tourist before getting down to business--this turns out to be 
a dissapointment.  In one country (France, or modeled after France?)  
everyone's on strike.  And Gus is wild about the idea of going to 
Sardinia, but can't find a decent sardine once he gets there.

They successfully steal the explosive, fly back towards home, and drop
the explosive in the middle of the Atlantic.  They're really knocked 
around by the blast, and the boy starts growing again as a result of 
that.

Story #2.

I remember even less about this one.  The characters in this story are
some school boys (I forget exactly how many, two or three probably), 
probably in their early teens.  They come across some chemicals 
somewhere (a school lab?) and somehow ingest some of them (or absorb 
it through their skin?).  My impression is that the chemicals are some
sort of pituitary hormones.

Nothing much happens for a few days, except the boys loose a little 
weight.  Then, on the way home, they suddenly shrink down to nearly 
nothing--about knee-high to an ant perhaps.  The rest of the story is 
about their adventures covering the 100 yards or so to one of the 
boy's homes.

Can someone identify the titles/authors for these stories, and correct
any details that I've distorted?

Perhaps the transformations of Arthur (the Wart) in "The Once and
Future King" count as shrinking?  (He's turned into several different
animals as part of his education under Merlin.)

In Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows", there's an episode where Jack is
captured by one of his enemies.  He's held prisoner in a hollowed out
jewel that hangs as a pendant around the enemy's neck.  The cute thing
about this is that he only finds this out after being visited by his
enemy inside the jewel.  The baddie shows Jack the jewel hanging
around his neck, suggests that Jack look inside.  Later on he plunges
the room into darkness by putting his hand around it, and raises the
temperature a bit by holding it over a candle.  I'm not sure if this a
"shrinking" or not, for all I know it's also an expanding.  Escher
could have some fun with the scene.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 82 02:29:34 EST  (Thu)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Explosive Decompression

    From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-UNIX>

    How long CAN someone survive in [a vacuum]?  I know that there
    have been some experiments on this topic over the years... does
    anyone know the results of these?

A couple of years ago I was given a tour of the University of Maryland
Hospital in Baltimore City by one of the doctors. (a friend of a
friend) While he was explaining the hyperbaric chamber (which is
itself quite fascinating: They have a complete operating room in
there, which they can compress to up to five atmospheres.) I asked the
same question. He said that yes, you can survive in a complete vacuum
for a little while, but that it is extremely painful. Unfortunately we
zipped on to the next exhibit before I got to ask the obvious
questions: ``how long'' and ``how do you know''. I got the feeling he
didn't want to discuss it.

I expect that the immediate effect of exposing yourself to a vacuum
(aside from having nothing to breathe) would be about the same as the
effect of a too-rapid decompression from a 30 foot (i.e.: one
atmospheric pressure) scuba dive, namely the bends.

I've always felt that the 2001 ``spacewalk'' would have been a bit
more plausible if Bowman had gotten a nosebleed from it or his
eardrums had burst. (nothing TOO gross of course, but SOME sort of
injury)

    The next time I get thrown from a spaceship by a large, burly
    guard who keeps bellowing, "Resistance is useless!!!", how long
    should I expect to last?

30 seconds at a probability factor of 8,137,445 to one against and
falling, which just happens to be the phone number of a very good...

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 82 10:35:11-EST (Thu)
From: Richard G Turner <rturner.xls-onyx02@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: V6 #86 -- Decompression Query

Regarding Lauren's query in volume 6, issue 86 concerning exlosive
decompres- sion, I remember being handed a pamphlet when I entered the
theater to view "2001" for the first time. This pamphlet described
experiments on laboratory animals being subjected to decompression.

They stated that based upon these experiments, it was felt that a man
could spend somewhere between 30 seconds and 1 minute (if I remember
this correctly) in vacuum prior to succumbing to the boiling away of
his bodily fluids.

I think I remember this pamphlet because I am not usually given
explanatory material in movie theaters, and also my pregnant wife
(couldn't see her feet!)  chose this moment to kick over a large urn
filled with sand. I immediately stuck my head in the pamphlet and
tried to find a seat.

rick

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1982 1558-CST
Subject: The Book of the New Sun
From: CS.TEMIN at UTEXAS-20

Has anyone seen the third volume of Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New
Sun"?  The first volume is entitled "The Shadow of the Torturer", the
second is "The Claw of the Concilliator".  Both books contain teasing
hints about the condition of the protagonist which I think are
promised to be resolved in the third book.

I've looked for the book but can find no information.  (The books are
published by Timescape/Pocket books.)

 Thanks,
 -aaron temin (Cs.Temin at Utexas-20)

[The third book is "The Citadel of the Autarch" (sp?). I saw
it at our local SF bookshop, in hardcover only.--Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1982 2247-EST
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: NPR radio plays-A Canticle for Lebowitz?

        I heard recently (I think it was on "The Sunday Show") that
NPR is going to air (if not produce) a version of A Canticle for
Lebowitz.  Can anyone supplement this information? (Like release
date?)

                                                Gene

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1982 2317-EST
From: Gene Hastings <HASTINGS at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Dark Crystal

        Since the book is an adaptation of the screenplay, it seems 
appropriate to put off reading it until after seeing the film.  (It
could only spoil things, right?)
        According to an ad earlier this month on USA (cable)Network,
the film opens nationally Dec. 17. The trailer looks very promising,
-there is a credit for "conceptual design" given to Brian Froud, a
wonderfully warped illustrator. (His past work includes Faeries and
Master Snickup's Cloak.) I hope they have a new stable of voices, 
since I'm not sure I'll ever get over seeing Yoda, and hearing Fozzie
Bear.

                                                        Gene Hastings
                                                  <HASTINGS at
CMU-CS-C>

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 82 21:53:17-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!jcwinterton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Darth

Darth must be a Canadian if all he wants is PEACE and ORDER.  Of
course, Canadians also want "good Government" according to the
provisions of the BNA Act.  Oh well......

John Winterton.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1982 0306-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: ST:TWOK

        This in reply to Reed Powell's comment on the movie.
Reed, old friend, you hit the nail on the head.  You brought
out two of my biggest, yet unpublished gripes.  First, the year
skewage.  Secondly, the planet messup.

        BUT, if you remember from the series, the star dates
seemed to have no real significance.  They jumped around
helter skelter from episode to episode.  I know that you have
almost the entire series on tape, AND, if you can prove me
wrong, dinner is on me at DECUS.  (One dinner, note.)

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 82 21:15:09-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!will at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: re: trek trivia

Ah, yes, I remember, now...an alien being was found dead in a service 
tube on the ship.  But I'm not sure...was it Spock's father?  It seems
to me that he was accused but we all know he was innocent...who did
it??

(i.e., was it Spock's father that killed him?)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 82 18:09:18 EST  (Tue)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  More on Space Classics;  INFO-MUSIC ??

    From: Michael Muuss <mike@BRL>

    Since the subject of classical music in "SF" has been broached,
    how about Tommaso Albinoni's Adagio in G Minor for Strings and
    Organ Continuo?  It was used most effectively in a "Space: 1999"
    episode.

Wasn't it also used as the theme music for the movie ``Rollerball'',
which is SF at least in the sense that the story is set 50 - 100 years
in the future?


[I believe the Rollerball theme music was the Toccata in D Minor
by J.S. Bach. --Stuart]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #89
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, November 26, 1982 8:15PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #89
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 27 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 89

Today's Topics:
    Books  - Wolf's "Book of the New Sun", Harrison's "The
	     Stainless Steel Rat for President"
    Radio  - Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz
    Themes - shrinking
    Query  - decompression
    Movies - thumbs down on "The Last Unicorn", Star Trek and planet names
    T.V.   - Spock's father
    Music  - themes from Rollerball, country and western SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26-Nov-82 09:41:13-PST (Fri)
From: INGVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Book of the New Sun

        Actually, the third book is Sword of the Lictor, and the forth
book is Citadel of the Autarch. Both are only out in hardcover, and
they are getting nothing except rave reviews.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 26-Nov-82 10:36:30 PST (Friday)
From: Sapsford at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #88

I am sure that the Moderator will get zillions of these notes, but ...
the 3rd book in the "Book of the New Sun" series is "The Sword of the
Lictor", with "The Citadel of the Autarch" being the 4th and "last"
book (I quote last because the rumor is that there will be a 5th book,
using the same world as the "New Sun" books, but not directly in the
series - I guess it is Wolfe's "Majipoor Chronicles").  Supposedly
Timescape will release "The Sword of the Lictor" in paperback in Jan.
'83.  All four books are currently available from the Science Fiction
Book Club.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1982 2216-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"

The third book in the series is "The Sword of the Lictor", and not
"The Citadel of the Autaurch", as was previously reported.  TCotA is
the fourth (and last) book.  "The Sword of the Lictor" is out in
hardback, and should be out in paperback in a matter of weeks; I saw a
sample cover for it in the Science Fantasy bookstore in Cambridge.  I
recommend it.  Our torturer-hero, Severian, is once again forced to
flee for committing the crime of mercy.  He loses his second love,
meets his first (in monstrous form), and confronts aliens
("cacogens"), a king and a giant.  Like a lot of Wolfe's words, 
"lictor" sounds made-up, but isn't.  It means "a Roman officer who
bears the fasces as the insignia of his office", i.e. an enforcer.

------------------------------

Date: 26 November 1982 20:04-EST
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: "The Stainless Steel Rat for President"

I got a copy through the SF book club. It wasn't bad, but I don't 
think it was quite up to old SSR books. Still worth the money, though.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 26 Nov 1982 10:15-PST
Subject: A Canticle for Leibowitz
From: Tim Mann <mann@Shasta at SU-Score>

"A Canticle for Leibowitz" is currently airing on KCSM in San Mateo
(CA), on Sunday nights.  I think two episodes have been broadcast so
far, out of a total of 15.

        --Tim

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1982 1219-CST
From: CMP.TAYLOR at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Decompression

     In regards to the recent questions on explosive decommpression,
one of the things that would not happen is the bends.  The bends are
caused when nitrogen in the bloodstream is not given an ample period
of time to difuse out.  However, nitrogen is not normally found in the
bloodstream and only enters when the body is under pressure, such as
that caused by 33 feet of seawater (1 atm.).  So unless you went from
breathing normal air under pressure to zero pressure, you would not
get the bends.

    I seems to me that if you kept your mouth shut, you should be able
to survive zero atomosphere for about 30 seconds.  I suspect that if
you opened your mouth that the lungs would be much the worse for wear.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1982 2248-EST
From: John Redford <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: thumbs down on "The Last Unicorn"

Anyone who has read the book "The Last Unicorn" by Peter Beagle is
going to be disappointed in the movie.  All of Beagle's songs have
been replaced by some pop pap from Jimmy Webb, and a lot of good
scenes have been cut out altogether.  A lot of the book's charm was in
its balance between the mundane and the magical: when a prince and a
princess go out hunting unicorn, the princess sings a lovely little
song and swings a golden bridle to lure in the beast, while the bored
prince reads a magazine.  The animators left out the mundane parts and
didn't portray magic very well.  There are some good parts; the
poetry-mad butterfly was done well, and the Red Bull was appropriately
fierce.  But the characters generally lacked expression, and the
landscapes were insipid.
     Movies have so much more bandwidth than books that you would
expect that a lot more detail would come across to a viewer than to a
reader.  That was certainly true in the Star Wars movies.  They were
full of little details that were never remarked upon or emphasized,
but nonetheless gave you the feeling that this was a real, lived-in
world.  But in this movie, and in other attempts like "The Lord of the
Rings", the visual version is much duller and narrower than the print
one.  It takes a powerful artistic vision to surpass a reader's
imagination.

John Redford

------------------------------

Date: 26 November 1982  13:21-EST (Friday)
From: The One and Only Mijjil {Matthew J Lecin} <LECIN at RU-GREEN>
Subject: re: trek trivia
Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers

Gav the Tellerite was the one found dead stuffed up a Jeffries' Tube.
An alien DISGUISED as an Andorian was the actual culprit.

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1982 1235-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Spock's father

        Although it was not explicitly stated, it was implied very
strongly that Spock's father was suffering the Vulcan equivalent of a
heart attack while the Telerite was being attacked.  It was probably
the Orion disguised as the Andorian who did the foul deed.  Although
the technique was Vulcan, it is not inconceivable that other races
might have had access to the knowledge.

        This brings up a trivia point about Spock's father.  We know
that Mark Leonard, a very talented actor, played both Spock's father,
and also the Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror", but he also
played (under heavy makeup) the Klingon Commander in ST:TMP.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1982 (Friday) 1547-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: ST-WOK and planet names

Presumably, when approaching a new solar system looking for a given
planet, you don't start in the middle and count all the planets
outward until you reach the one you're looking for.  You look up in
your star charts, find the latest recorded distance of that planet
from its star, and look for the nearest hunk of rock that distance
away.  Now, it does seem improbable that an explosion would pull a
planet toward the source, but it could have pushed at an odd angle
(they don't line up, you know) such that the net result was to end up 
further away, even perhaps close to the orbital distance of the
offending planet.
        What I want to know is how a planet can spontaneously blow up.

                                                Dan

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 26 November 1982, 21:36-EST
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #88



In reply to the digest entry:

    Date: 23 Nov 82 21:15:09-PST (Tue)
    From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!will at Ucb-C70
    Subject: Re: re: trek trivia

    Ah, yes, I remember, now...an alien being
    was found dead in a service tube on the
    ship.  But I'm not sure...was it Spock's
    father?  It seems to me that he was accused
    but we all know he was innocent...who did
    it??

    (i.e., was it Spock's father that killed him?)


It wasn't Spock's father that killed him, but a spy posing as an
ambassador. I forget the name of the race(some random
stellar-name-root with a TIAN ending), but they were blue skinned,
white haired humanoids with curved antennae. (The impostor hid a
communicator device in his left antenna.) The assasin's ship then
attacked the Enterprise and severely wounded it. Kirk, sitting to
the occasion, played dead(shutting down all power consumption
except phasers and waited until the ship came close enough(it was
very fast when it attacked (something like warp 11))...  (usual
all-bad-guys-killed (spy commits suicide) ending...).

Dave();

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 26 Nov 1982 12:23-PST
Subject: Theme from Rollerball
From: David Kaelbling <drk@Shasta at SU-Score>

The theme from Rollerball is Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony.

        David Kaelbling

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 26 Nov 1982 14:19-PST
Subject: Shrinking Alice & Rollerball
From: Paul Asente <asente@Shasta at SU-Score>

Recently it was stated that Alice experienced shrinking/growing while 
she was through the looking glass.  While many of the things she found
on the other side were unusually large (gnats, wasps, and chesspieces,
for example) Alice herself always remained her normal size.

Albinoni's Adagio did occur in "Rollerball," I believe during the part
where the party guests are enjoying themselves by going around blowing
up trees.  The Toccata and Fugue also occurs as theme music, and 
various other baroque pieces show up as organ music during the 
rollerball games.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1982 2123-MST
From: JW-Peterson at UTAH-20 (John W. Peterson)
Subject: Shrinking storys...

"Stuart Little" (by E.B. White) is another children's story dealing
with the subject- in this case an intelligent mouse born to human
parents.  I think a film of it was also made.

jp

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1982 1406-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: C & W SF (yee-HAW!)

There exists a country and western song called "The Cool Green Hills 
of Earth".  I don't know who does it, but for those of you in the New
York area (other than North Jersey, notably Rutgers) who have never
heard the song, there is a woman who goes by the air name Alice Leroy
on WVHC (89.7FM) who does a country show called "Western Star" every
Saturday morning (unless something has changed recently) somewhere
between 10AM and 2PM (it's only an hour long) who closes her show each
week with this song.

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 82 01:04:28 EST  (Fri)
From: Chris Torek <chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: !!!SPOILER!!! Chalker's The Four Lords of the Diamond - !!!SPOILER!!!

Yep, I've read the first three of the Four Lords of the Diamond,
and all 5 of the three Well World stories.  That's right, all 5 of
the three: the second and third BOOKS are the second STORY, and the
fourth and fifth books are the third story.  I liked all that I
read, but then I'm an "LE" (likes everything).  Chalker has good
plots and new ideas for his books.

About the Four Lords of the Diamond:

The first book is titled "Lilith: A Snake in the Grass".  In it we
are introduced to the basic situation.  The military of the
civlized worlds (known as the Confedaracy) has been penetrated by
an alien robot, which has stolen all of their military secrets.
Nothing more is known about the aliens and the government wants
information, immediately.  The robot has been traced back to the
Warden Diamond, which is a disaster.  The Warden Diamond is a
stellar system with four inhabitable planets, by the names of
Lilith, Cerberus, Charon, and Medusa.  They were discovered and
named by a scout named Halden Warden 200 years ago; he described
them as follows:

[Pause while I go get the third book as a reference]

"Charon", came the first report.  "Looks like hell."

"Lilith", he continued.  "Anything that pretty's got to have a
snake in it."

"Cerberus", he named the third.  "Looks like a real dog."

And, finally, "Medusa.  Anybody who lives here would have to have
rocks in his head."

The coordinates followed, along with a code confirming that Warden
had done remote but no direct exploration -- that is, he hadn't
landed -- and a final code, "ZZ," which filled them with some fear.
It meant that there was something very odd about the place, so
approach with extreme caution.

[End quotation]

[General background, and "Lilith: A Snake in the Grass"]

Indeed, there was reason for caution, as they found out six months
after the initial exploration team landed on Lilith, and had been
to all three of the other worlds.  A microorganism that originated
on Lilith had infected the team, and they had then carried it out
to the other three worlds.  This organism had different effects on
each planet, due to different conditions.  On Lilith, nothing not
organic in nature or originally from the planet was broken down by
the little beasties.  So six months after arriving, the scientists
watched their shuttles, clothing, tools, etc. disintegrate.

Later the people remaining on Lilith discovered that some of them
had picked up a new ability from their hosts.  Somehow, they could
communicate with their Wardens (as the microorganisms came to be
called) and their Wardens could subseqently affect others.  Using
this power they could reshape objects or inflict pain or pleasure
in others.

It was also discovered that no one infected with the Warden
organism was able to leave the Warden system.  The organism
attached itself to the very DNA of the cell, and after a certain
distance from the sun the thing died (if you can call it that;
Wardens are only a handful of atoms).  This unfortunately led to
the painful death of the person.

So the Confederacy was faced with an impossibility.  They had to
get a good agent into the Warden system, into the established
heirarchy, and then to report back.  The only trouble was, once
they got a good agent in, being a good agent, he would realize that
he no longer needed the Confederacy; why should he work for them?
They got him into the mess!  And with what he knew about the inner
workings of the Confederacy they would kill him as soon as he
finished his mission!  (Agents were normally "wiped" between
missions, their memories stored in a computer.)  His only chance
was to become the "top dog": one of the Four Lords.

The solution was to use the Merton Process.  This involved copying
the mind of a person into another body.  Only about one in twenty
"imprints" worked, but they had plenty of bodies; they would
destroy the minds of the criminals who would have been sent to the
Warden Diamond for safekeeping.  (The Confederacy hated to waste
their most creative citizens; ordinary criminals were just
retrained but the brilliant ones were sent to the Warden Diamond.
This should give you an idea of what the inhabitants were like.)
In the bodies of four different people, the agent they selected
would be transported to each of the four planets.  With a tiny
quasi-organic transmitter implanted in his/her brain, the copy
would relay his/her experiences back to the agent, who would be
safe on a ship elsewhere in the Warden system.

The first report the agent received came from Lilith.  His copy, in
the body of Cal Tremon, had arrived on the paradise planet, and
been put to work by a sadistic overseer.  But a little while later
Tremon's power began to manifest...

No more, or I'll take away some of the fun.

["Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold"]

Cerberus was a watery world, whose only "land" turned out to be the
tops of tall underwater trees.  However, its Wardens had a very
different effect from those of Lilith.  Technology could and did
exist there, at nearly the same level of the Confederacy.  Here was
where the raw materials from the other worlds was processed and
sold, both to the planets of the Warden Diamond and to the
Confederacy.

The agent was sent here in the body of Quin Zhang.  The ability
provided by the Warden organism was somewhat unique: people on
Cerberus swapped minds as a matter of course.  (This is what led to
the Merton Process in the first place.)

["Charon: A Dragon at the Gate"]

Charon was a jungle.  But on Charon, magic works!  The Wardens have
the ability to "convince" other Wardens that something is some way.
While in reality the object or person that has been magicked does
not change, all of the inhabitants of Charon believe that it has,
so in effect, it has changed.  Furthermore, in living things, the
change slowly becomes permanent, as the Wardens produce subtle
changes in the body of the affected being.

Well, I hope that's not too long.  If there's more interest I'll
reread my Well World collection and send in something on it too.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 27-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #90
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, November 27, 1982 8:04PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #90
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 28 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 90

Today's Topics:
    Books  - Wolfe's "The Book of the New Sun", Harrison's "The Stainless
	     Steel Rat", mushroom planet books
    Misc   - Media of science fiction
    Movies - The Last Unicorn, 2001 movie sequel?, "the other" in TESB,
	     Star Trek inconsistencies
    T.V.   - various shows
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1982 (Saturday) 1857-EDT
From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally)
Subject: Book of the New Sun

        Actually, the third book, Sword of the Lictor is out in paper-
back at Encore books in Philadelphia.  I bought it yesterday and it 
deserves its reviews.  Also, the third book in the Jack L. Chalker 
Warden Diamond series is out in paperback.  I haven't read these and 
would like to hear some opinions.

-]Rick

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 82 12:57:30 EST  (Fri)
From: Khron The Elder <rehmi.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat

About 6 months ago, I heard rumors that Paramount or some such were
going to make a movie of The Stainless Steel Rat or had already
started. I haven't heard anything since. Anybody else know anything
about this? I think I read it somewhere, though the magazine's
respectability was probably questionable.
                                                -Rehmi-

------------------------------

Date: 25 November 1982 17:51 mst
From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard)
Subject: Stainless Steel Rat for President
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS

It is available in paperback, published by Bantam.  I note that the 
publication date is December 1982, I just picked it up at my local 
Walden bookstore, there were several copies.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1982 (Saturday) 1755-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: Media of science fiction

        The majority of the science fiction discussed in sf-lovers has
been in 3 major media -- books, movies, and tv (with some recent,
arguably weak, efforts in music) (and a little radio).  I would like
to see a discussion focusing on the relative advantages of these
media, including why one would choose one over another, what is most
effective for what sorts of things, etc.  As I see it, there are 2
major types of sf as regards its medium: science fiction in the medium
it was intended, and sci fi adapted from another medium.  The latter
includes many things, such as books and movies coming from the Star
Trek tv series, movies from books, or even tv and books arising from
radio (HhG).  I believe it is generally considered that the original
is better than its copies, in most cases.  Why is this?  Is it because
the copy doesn't show enough imagination?  Or is it because the
original concept, as it was formulated, was particularly suited for
the original medium?  Should there be more people writing sf 
particularly for certain areas such as movies?
        These are some of the questions in this area that I would like
to see addressed.  Any interest out there?

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1982 15:22-EST
From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A
Subject: topics of discussion

In answer to a question a few weeks, the things that got me started on
sf were Heinlein's "childrens" books, which everyone seems to think
are perfectly good reading for adults. I asked my librarian what would
be some good science fiction to read, and she pointed me to Heinlein
(this is 5th grade). I seem to remember immediately taking out
``Rocket Ship Galileo'', ``Space Cadet'', and ``Time for the Stars''
the first week, and eventually all the others, and then some of the
"adult" Heinlein that my library had -- such pornography as ``Time
enough for Love'' and ``Stranger in a Strange Land'' (incidentally
there is a rock song based on this book, but I only heard it once
about 5 years ago, and don't remember anything about it.)

Here's a question that I'd like to see discussed: What is the "best" 
episode of Star Trek? (Movies don't count.) Why? I mention this
because WPXI just aired my favorite 2 hours ago.

My vote: ``Mirror, Mirror''.

Except for the initial incident which set up the episode, (an ion
storm sent Kirk, Scott, McCoy, and Uhura into a parellel universe
while they were beaming up) everything seemed fairly real. No blasts
equivelent to 90 photon torpedos were absorbed by the Enterprise
shields, no alien creatures burned "NO KILL I" into the ground.

None of this kneejerk extra killing went on. True, some of them killed
each other, but killing an officer would undoubtedly been unsafe for a
security guard on the ISS Enterprised. When Sulu and his three
security guards threatened to do away with the good guys, Kirk's women
(Marlena?) killed the guards and left Sulu alive, but then they were 
holding phasers and he just had a knife. Notably, none were killed 
during the first ten minutes of the show.

More to the point, all the characters seemed to act in a very 
reasonable way. Notably, Captain Kirk's was angered with the mercenary
from Chechov's(sp) guard who saved betrayed Checkov to save Kirk and 
then expected a promotion with Kirk. Kirk also took risks to avoid 
killing the Halkans, spared Checkov, and fought to convince the evil 
Spock that the Empire was wrong. Spock's actions all seems perfectly 
logical in light of his environment. He still seemed to have that 
Vulcan curiousity too. I thought it said a lot for McCoy that he was 
willing to risk not getting back to the real universe in order to save
the evil Spock.

The clincher: Spock looks really neat with a beard.

The flaws I saw were that the evil Kirk was portrayed as being less 
intelligent than the good Kirk, which seems unjustified; and the 
Computer was handled in typical hokey manner. Well there's the heart 
of the matter! How many Star Treks are there that you can only see two
flaws in?

What, me, verbose?

                                                Jim

------------------------------

Date: 26 November 1982 20:37 mst
From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard)
Subject: Mushroom Planet books
Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS

The Mushroom Planet books were probably my first exposure to science 
fiction as well.  I remember checking them out from the school library
in 1972 or 1973.  Does anyone know the titles of these books?  The 
author's name was Cameron, I think, I can't remember her first name.
I also seem to recall reading another book by the same author,
something about unicorns and a note hidden inside a Christmas tree
ornament.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 82 13:57:46-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!genradbo!mitccc!cutter at Ucb-C70
Subject: Review: Last Unicorn

     THE LAST UNICORN is a wonderful movie. Admittedly, I thought I
was in for the standard G-rated slop that those intellectual eunuchs
(sp?) in Hollywood put out. I was wrong.
     First off, the screenplay was written by the author of the book
it's based on, The Last Unicorn, by Peter S. Beagle. Therefore, it is
at *least* 90% accurate to the book. Second, the music is down to
minimum: there is only one disgustingly sweet, dripping with
sentimentality, totally useless love song, and that is kept short.
There are only two other songs, the credit music, and another that
floats in and out. Third, the animation is from all those wonderful
guys in Japan; the same folks who brought you SPACE CRUISER YAMATO
(aka StarBlazers), SPACE PIRATE CAPTAIN HARLOCK, GALAXY EXPRESS 999, 
etc, so watch for those huge eyes. It is quite good animation,
considering the movie was produced by Arthur Rankin and Jules Bass,
who brought us such Saturday morning wonders as "Speed Buggy" and "The
Jackson Five" (remember that one??). And lastly, the cast. The voices
are done by some really good people, among them Angela Landsbury, Alan
Arkin, Jeff Bridges, Mia Farrow, Tammy Grimes, and (of course) what
animated would be complete without Paul Frees.
     The plot (if you have never read the book) concerns a unicorn who
is obsessed with finding out if she is truly the last unicorn in the
world.  It's not a very big plot, but it makes for an enjoyable movie
nevertheless.  TJust the butterfly is worth seeing it ten times over.

                                                -- Joe --

(p.s. ElfQuest animated: Fall, 1987/Spring, 1988 !!!!)

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 27 November 1982  14:06-EST
From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC
Subject: In defense of The Last Unicorn

In issue 89, John Redford pans "The Last Unicorn" because it is not, 
in his opinion, faithful to the book, and has less detail than a movie
like Star Wars.

Unfortunately, he overlooks a critical destinction between SW and TLU.
SW was a screenplay before it ever was a book. Lucas could tailor the 
story to fit into a 90-120 minute medium. The Last Unicorn is a deep 
and textured story, and there is no way it could be fit into a 
commercial length. Therefore, Beagle did the only thing possible, he 
trimmed down to the basic story.

In addition, SW is a live film. It's easy to make a live film gritty 
and full of detail, you just add props. Animated films have to rely on
making the limited elements of a cel as good as possible. We're not 
likely to see Disney quality animation until computer aided animation 
becomes popular, the love Disney put into his work isn't 
cost-effective anymore. But TLU comes closer than 90% of the other 
crud released as "animation".

Finally, I think in some important ways, TLU is a better film than SW 
or ET. Those movies have everything going for them. They have scripts 
and plots developed specially for the medium. They have happy endings 
and characters people can indentify with. And they have big budgets to
splurge on effects.

TLU had a locked in plot way too long for a movie, a bitter-sweet 
ending which leaves several characters less than happy, and a budget 
which couldn't be anything over a million or two.

It's easy (comparatively) to take a film with all the breaks and make 
a hit, but to take a story which isn't really meant for the medium, 
and make a releatively good film out of it takes much more. It usual 
takes an act of love, and I think Beagle put out what Lucas and 
Spielberg didn't have to.

It may take a powerful artistic vision to surpass a reader's 
imagination, but it takes love and care to bring a book to the screen 
with any success, and I intend to respect that effort by nominating 
TLU for the Hugo (assuming nothing better comes along...)

                                                Flaming Forever,
                                                James

------------------------------

Date: 27 November 1982 17:07-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW at MIT-MC>
Subject: The Last Unicorn (movie)

Last night I saw the movie "The Last Unicorn."  It is animated feature
which portrays the quest of a Unicorn, a young magician, a helpful
girl, and ultimately, a heroic prince, to find the lost other
Unicorns.  The movie is a beautiful expression of the legend and magic
which goes with good fantasy stories.

The movie draws its power from the telling of a tale which is sweet
and pretty, and evocative of a proper fantasy world.  It builds
gradually, as a quest should, from the first doubting by the Unicorn
("Unicorns do not vanish.  We may be killed if we leave our forests,
but we do not @i(vanish).") to an exciting resolution ("Not all the
magic in the world can save her now.  That is what heros are for.")
The plot is uncomplicated, but still leaves room for challenge,
response, and doubt by the characters, and even comic relief.

I found the characters to be likeable and well-portrayed.  I
especially liked Alan Arkin as the young-magician-seeking-wizardry.
(I must admit to a feeling of anomaly; after seeing "The Seven Percent
Solution" I now associate that voice permanently with the character of
Sigmund Freud.)

To John Redford (VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO), who said that "[i]t takes a 
powerful artistic vision to surpass a reader's imagination," I note
that a powerful artistic vision should in fact @i(supplement) the
reader's imagination!  I think that "The Last Unicorn" does just that.

-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 82 22:02-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: 2001 movie sequel?

I've heard a dubious rumor: that Kubrick is working on a sequel to
2001 in-line with the 2010 Clarke book recently released.  I just
can't believe that Stanley would demean himself (and the original
movie) to do a sequel; it isn't his style to do two movies on the same
subject or even using the same background.

Does anyone know the real story on this?

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 82 19:13:26-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: The Other

Interesting theory (about Boba Fett).  I didn't get any impression, 
though, that Darth Vader was putting up with any insolence from him.  
And it certainly isn't the case that Darth thinks he is the top living
Jedi; remember how he admits that the Emperor is stronger.  First in 
the communication with the Emperor (The emp indicated as how he felt a
strong presence in the Force, Darth agrees, all the while kneeling).  
Next in his conversation during the battle with Luke, Darth says 
something to the effect that the Emperor knew that if they (Darth and
Luke) joined forces, they would be stronger than the Emperor.  Thus,
an admission of being weaker than the Emperor.

Mark E. Mallett

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 82 15:02:22-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!FtG at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Other

Here's one vote for Other=Leia. Other suggestions seem ludicrous.
Question: why did Leia know to turn back to rescue Luke?
Question: Why has Luke and Leia been like brother-sister (hence
          Hans as the romantic interest)?
Question: Why is it "princess" Leia, i.e. role of royalty/Jedi future
          rulers of empire after successful revolution????
You can send congrats on insight next may to...

                            FtG at rocheste

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 82 18:49:02-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: The Other

Vader is not the top living Jedi in any way, and he knows it:
1) He defers to the emperor (my master) quite clearly.

2) It is unknown who would have won the vader-obiwan fight if obiwan
had not given up the fight to enter this higher plane he is in.  If
obiwan could have beaten vader, then Yoda could too.

If the Other was on the cloud city, and yoda could not see the fate of
those there when luke left, then they should have had some concern
that all their eggs were in one basket.  This gives support to the
idea that the other is not from the group of central characters, but
it could also be Lando, who the ROTJ trailer says plays a big part in
the third movie.

Remember: Yoda thought Luke was too old for Jedi Training and accepted
him because he had already learned from ob1 and the rebels.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1982 0507-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Battlestar, etc

        This evening, in the Bay Area, they had a re-showing of one of
the best BATTLESTAR GALACTICA episodes, "The Living Legend", starring
Lloyd Bridges as Cmdr. Cain, the master of the lost Battelestar
Pegesus.

        This episode had all the right features; the discovery of
another Colonial war ship, that was thought to be lost.  A conflict
between the the respecting commanders.  Father vrs son, Father vrs
daughter, friend vrs friend, warrior vrs warrior, and all on the same
side!!!

        Baltar, foul being that he is, slipping in his own solid
bodily wastes, when he realizes that Cain is after him.  Massive alien
(CYLON) attack forces moving back and forth, trying to outwit Adama
and Cain, who have already figured out how to counteract the Cylon's
attack plans.  Romance (only implied) between Adama's son, Apollo, and
Cain's daughter, Sheba.

        The destruction of a Cylon base, ("Yuccky Cylons", as my
nephew is fond to say), well, what else could you want?

        Well, I wanted it to live.

        B.G. died a tragic death.  It had the largest budget of any TV
series, and yet it died.  Why?

        Dry rot.

        I mean, every other week, Apollo or Starbuck would crash on
some desolate planet, similar to the old west, be made town marshall,
and go out to kick some booty.

        OK, OK, the episodes with the Terra crisis were different, but
can you believe Edward Mulhare as an invisible Angel named John?

        And, Patrick McNee as the Devil?  (He did a good job as a
surogate) (Has anybody ever figured out what was in the wreckage on
that planet?)

        What I am getting at, is will anyone ever figure out how to do
good SF on TV?  "Lost in Space" was good until several episodes, then
it became the "Dr. Smith, Will Robinson & Robot" show.  We are talking
a downhill slide.

        I always enjoyed "Time Tunnel", even though the facts were not
quite right.

        "Buck Rogers" was just fun, even tho it was played in a
serious vein.  I enjoyed it.

        "Twlight Zone", sigh.

        "Night Gallery", my two favorites are: "The Messiah on Mott
Street" (starring Eddie G. Robinson), and "They're Tearing Down Tim
Riely's Bar".

        "Outer Limits", one of my favorites is when Carroll O'Connor
plays a Martian.  (Can you imangine Archie Bunker as an "illegal"
Alien?)

        But, what I am getting at is Dry Rot.

        Star Trek had two good seasons, then was handed over to a
person who had no concept of the series, and, it died.  I shan't
mention his name, but he was interviewed in a two part article in
STARLOG magazine a few months ago.

        He lambasted Dorthy Fontana (D.C. Fontana, story editor of
Star Trek for the second and third season) and David Gerrold, the
young unknown who wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles".

        Now, not to be a name-dropper, but David and D.C.  are old
friends of mine.  His portrayal of them in the interview are about 180
degrees from real life.  Therefore I take anything he says with a
horse sized salt lick.

        Star Trek suffered badly in it's third season.  Bad scripts,
bad directing, and being placed at 10 PM on Friday evening, away from
it's main audiance.

        I have watched "The Powers of Matthew Starr", and while I
found it cute, I much preferred "Mr. Merlin"; the interaction between
Bernard Hughes and young Clark Brandon was much better.

        What I am trying to say is that there is a legitimate place
for SF on TV.  Stop giving us the candy pill; give us the real stuff.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 27 November 1982  15:31-PST
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
Subject: ST2WOK; inconsistencies; your opinion

1) Dates: It's Romulan Ale, isn't it? Who said Romulans have to obey 
the same dates the Federation did (Note that the Hebrew Calendar and
the Julian one don't use the same year either. If you had a bottle of
wine dated 1986 in Hebrew it would be some 3746 years old!)

I can't explain #2. I cheated a bit on #1, but that's show biz...

--JSol

p.s. I thought it was the other way around. I thought they were 
looking for CETI-ALPHA #5, and found #6 instead (i.e. that #5 blew up,
made #6 into #5). If I'm right then there's the bug (in your head),
else the bug is real. Anyone know for sure?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #91
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, November 28, 1982 11:14PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #91
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 29 Nov 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 91

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Michener's SPACE, Wolfe's THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR, BINARY
	      STAR #5
    Queries - explosive decompression
    T.V.    - Battlestar Ponderosa, favorite trek episodes
    Movies  - The Other & ice cream freezers in SW & TESB, prediction
	      for Star Trek III, The Last Unicorn
    Music   - country and western SF
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 82 16:41:05-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Review of Michener's SPACE

I think my first effort bombed, so here's more:

I think SPACE treated sf generally very well.  Weinbaum and Miller, as
well as Heinlein and Asimov were given high marke#s.  And when one of
the astronauts crashed on the moon, his last words were "Blessed St.
Leibowitz, let 'm keep on dreamin' down there..."

Who could ask for a better recommendation for our genre?

--Arlan Andrews
--inuxd!arlan
--bell labs/abi-to-be
--Indianapolis

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1982 1652-CST
From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Sword of the Lictor

I have seen the 3rd volume of Gene Wolf's Book of the New Sun in
paperback, Sword of the Lictor, in Austin, Texas.  Surely, it must
also be out now on the East and West coasts.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 82 12:18:29-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.retief at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: True Names- Dell true to word

  An article in fa.sf-lovers back in early sept. was claiming that
Dell books was hoarding its last copies of "True Names" in the Binary
Star #5 book.  It said, though, that if you mailed in an order for it
Dell would have to send it.  Well, I tried it and sure enough it
worked.  Well, kind of.  The copy I got had it's back slightly broken
(either by the mail or by big brother at Dell.)  Still, if anyone was
thinking of trying it then now you know it really works.  Here's the
order form that I used.
                        Dwight Bartholomew

        Dell Books
        P.O. Box 1000
        Pinebrook, N.J. 07058

        Please send me (   ) copies of  "Binary Star #5" containing
        "Nightflyers" by George R. R. Martin and "True Names" by
        Vernor Vinge.  I am enclosing $_________  ($2.50 per copy
        plus $0.75 per copy for postage and handling.)
        Send check or money order - no cash or C.O.D.'s.  Please
        allow up to 8 weeks for shipment.

        name ____________________________________

        address ____________________________

        city ________________________  state/zip ___________________

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1982 1943-EST
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Explosive decompression

  My experience as a dive instructor has caused me to look into a lot
of matters relating to decompression.  I don't know much about the
changes from 1-0 ATM, but I'm pretty good on 1-10.  Based on this
knowledge I'd opine that the only major problems in explosive
decompression will be the ear drums (needing roughly 5 psi to rupture,
1 ATM is 14.7 psi) and the lungs.  In diving when one comes up the
danger is that air will be caught and expand causing a lung blowout.
This same could happen in explosive decompression.  As a matter of
fact, the worst possible thing one could do would be to hold your
breathe.  This would probably guarantee you an emoblism and a blown
out ear drum.  Exhale slowly as possible and you should be able to
survive with few if any major problems until your air runs out.
(there is some questions about how bloodshot your eyes would look.
Most of us in diving think it would take longer for this damage to
occur than it would taker to run out of breat.)
  -Jim Hendler

------------------------------

Date: 29 November 1982 00:28-EST
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL at MIT-MC>
Subject: Explosive decompression

  I think the recent discussion about whether astronauts can survive 
in zero pressure misses the point.  The human body is a lot tougher 
than most people seem to think.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone 
goes streaking on the Moon someday.
  But if we are in space to stay, spacesuits must be not merely 
survivable, but reasonably comfortable as well.  We should be talking 
about what the ideal spacesuit environment is, not about what is the 
minimum survivable.
                                                        ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: 28-Nov-82 10:23:16-PST (Sun)
From: research!sjb@Berkeley
Subject: Battlestar Galactica

In response to your question of what was in the wreckage on the
planet in ''War of the Gods'' (was that the name of the episode?):
I have always thought that the wreckage itself was the remains
of the Battlestar Pegasus and the great Commander Cain's body (not
to be morbid) was lying right in the entryway (or what was left
of it).  Think of it:

1)  The Pegasus engaged Baltar's base star at the end of ''Living
    Legend,'' and as Cain was not one to give up a battle and
    Baltar was still living in ''War of the Gods,'' one can assume
    that the Pegasus was destroyed.

2)  Apollo said, when they first saw the wreck on the surface,
    ''Whatever hit this place must have been as big as a battlestar''

3)  Neither Apollo nor Starbuck wanted Sheba to see what was inside.
    Now, all three are warriors and have all seen dead and mutilated
    bodies, so what could be worse?  Well, would you want to show
    someone their father's body?

4)  Ibly said that Sheba would see her father again.

5)  Ibly didn't want Sheba to go in there either (or for that matter,
    Apollo or Starbuck!), maybe because he was responsible for the
    Pegasus' destruction and didn't want Sheba to know that he had
    killed her father (or even that her father was dead)

6)  (My own opinion, not very objective)  Very many fans wanted to
    see the Pegasus and Cain alive at some time in the future, and
    the writers, realizing that, never did say what the wreckage or
    what was in it was; in this way, they didn't let the fans down.

------------------------------

Date: 28-Nov-82 4:55PM-EST (Sun)
From: Nathaniel Mishkin <Mishkin at YALE>
Subject: The Other

Well, I just saw SWTESB for the 3rd time.  Up until this time I was 
fairly convinced that there really was a significant "other" and that 
Luke Skywalker was a dead end.  However, on this 3rd viewing, I gained
a new respect for Skywalker.  Perhaps he's not the twerpy and 
irresponsible "I've got to go help my friends, damn the training" guy 
I thought he was.  I mean there are enough times where other
characters point out how powerful the force is with him.  Maybe he
really doesn't need all the training after all.  Maybe he's really
mega-Jedi and all this "other" stuff is just a feint.

In the light of the other (relatively straightforward) plot
developments I guess this is pretty unlikely.  Oh well.

                -- Nat

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1982 2122-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: The Other

        My vote for the "other" is Han Solo.  These are my reasons:

1)      On Hoth, Han handled the light saber like an old pro.

2)      It has been established in both movies that Han is a
        pilot beyond compare.  Obi Wan told Luke that he, like
        his father were good pilots.   Apparently, that is an
        important part of Jedi Training.

3)      When Han is confronted with a problem, we doesn't
        think; he reacts.  Remember his "commando charge"
        on the Death Star, and diving into the asteroid
        storm in TESB?

        It is true that Han did not believe in the Force
in the first movie, but apparently he does in the second.
The Force seems to be with him.

        Now that he is in the frozen state, it would be
a perfect opportunity for Yoda to guide him.

        On a similar note, I would like to put forth the
following theory:  If Darth Vader is indeed Luke's father,
than I propose that Obi Wan is Darth Vader's father.
Like father, like son, eh?  It would explain much, such
as how Obi Wan knew so much about Luke, and why he never
told Luke about Vader (at least not all.)

        But, I guess we'll all find out next May...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982  15:35-PST
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
Subject: The Other [rebuttal]


[Here's a rebuttal to the vote for Leia]

    Here's one vote for Other=Leia. Other suggestions seem ludicrous.
    Question: why did Leia know to turn back to rescue Luke?

[Because Luke put the thought into her mind. She believes in Luke, and
Luke has better command of the Force than she does. She was thinking
about him and sensed Danger. Luke put the image of where he was and
how to get there into Leia's mind. It took only that and her belief
that it was possible to do this (well, she believes Luke capable of
anything, hence she was not shocked to find that thought in her
mind).]

    Question: Why has Luke and Leia been like brother-sister (hence
              Hans as the romantic interest)?

[I'm not even going to try to answer this one. I don't think they were
brother/sister, even if they acted like it. It took my sister a LONG
while before she would begin to act like that to me, and even that was
short lived. I prefer to think of Luke-Leia as "very close friends".
You don't have to be brother/sister to be that way.]


    Question: Why is it "princess" Leia, i.e. role of royalty/Jedi
future
              rulers of empire after successful revolution????

[That has nothing to do with it. Princess Leia Organa is princess by
birth to the (now defunct) Organian world (planet). The significance
of "Princess" is an acknowledgement of her birthright. She may indeed
become Princess of the new "Republic", but that's no reason to call
her "Princess" now.]

		 WHAT IS THE FORCE?

The Force manipulation of reality by altering beliefs. VADER knows the
"art" of installing beliefs in the minds of the weak willed. He can do
it on a mass scale.  Since he could never percieve himself doing truly
evil things, he created the Emperor to do them for him. The Emperor is
VADER's bad side. He feeds on VADER's passions. Poltergeists are
sometimes thought to be created by kids who are afraid of being caught
yet who have some urge to do mischief. Poltergeists are useful because
you can put the blame on them and act totally innocent, hiding the
reality of the situation from yourself forever.

The Force binds the universe together. Every physical object, living
or not, has a mapping into some universal array. Ideas are merely
conceptions of something not yet explained in this universal array.
If you decide that the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons, and
Electrons, and there is no strong opposition (counter-example) to that
theory, then it holds. Every mind in the universe begins to accept
this theory as fact. Once the theory is proven beyond reasonable
doubt, it becomes part of our interpretation of reality.

The manipulators of the Force (Luke, Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda) can
manipulate that reality because he believes strongly that it is
possible. It is therefore said that "The Force is strong in him".
They have defined (in their minds) a representation of how to control
the beliefs of other beings. To lift the x-wing fighter out of the
swamp, all Yoda did was to make Luke believe that it was being done,
and then shift the consciousness of both Luke and himself such that
the object was moved to the desired location. The hand movements were
mere props, a way to help reinforce the belief. At the end it was
clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the object had indeed been moved
to a location just outside the swamp. It had been lifted out with the
power of the force (as yet not clearly defined to Luke.)

He has alot of trouble believing that VADER is his father. There is
some reasonable doubt in his mind that VADER could be lying.  Even if
VADER was telling the truth, Luke seems to have enough control of
himself to keep VADER from putting the thought that "his father knows
best" along side "VADER is his father", hence it is hard for Luke to
draw the conclusion that he should help VADER.  Therefore, VADER
doesn't have as much control over him as he would have liked. If he
had more time to press the issue, he could have eventually convinced
Luke that he was his father, *and* what he (VADER) was doing was right
and just and Luke should follow in his footsteps. That would have made
Luke a powerful ally to the Emperor.

		***However***

Just in the nick of time, they entered hyperspace. This separates Luke
from VADER and allows Luke to search his own mind for the true answer;
to "Search your feelings" as VADER put it. Luke can now do this
without the affects of VADER pounding it into him. He can decide who
to trust now, VADER or Obi-Wan. If he chooses to trust Obi-Wan and
Yoda, then he will be unwilling to let VADER push him off the dark
side edge. He will have won. *HE* will be the other hope.

		WHAT IS THE OTHER HOPE

That's right, WHAT, not WHO. The "Other Hope" is an event, a turning
of the tide in Luke's mind. This is what is likely to happen in
"Revenge of the Jedi". He will go back to Yoda's planet (Degoba) and
confront Yoda and Obi-Wan. He will probably demand from Obi-Wan an
explanation as to why the "Truth" was hidden from him.

[Note: It is inconsequential whether or not VADER is Luke's father.
If VADER was lying about this, it could be pointed out to Luke that
either VADER or OBI-WAN is lying, and that Luke must decide for
himself which to believe. Believing in VADER means accepting the dark
side and being swallowed up in it. Believing OBI-WAN is the "Other
Hope" (you will note that I am leaning towards this interpretation).

If VADER *is* Luke's father. It could be rationalized as a character
flaw in Obi-Wan (Jedi or no, Obi-Wan is human). Obi-Wan could have
rationalized that Luke would refuse to fight his father so he felt
that it was reasonable to withold this information from Luke during
the training. Luke still has to decide whether or not to trust
Obi-Wan. Luke has an idea that if he DOES decide to side with VADER,
there is more than a chance that VADER will double cross him. This can
also be interpreted as the "Other Hope".]

"Decide you must, how to help you friends" --Yoda. What Yoda saw in
the future was a test of this situation. Yoda knew that Luke would be
confronted with this, his biggest insecurity. Luke had to get this
"lesson" in the field. It could not be taught to him on Degoba. He
would not learn it any other way. He has to accept this in order for
him to defeat VADER.

VADER seems very insecure for a powerful dark-side person, ESPECIALLY
when it comes to Luke. Until Luke came around, VADER percieved himself
as being the most powerful Jedi around. He knew that Obi-Wan would not
come near him because VADER was "stronger" of will than Obi-Wan was
(Obi-Wan was getting old and his will was weakening because of it).
Obi-Wan at least accepts this.

Luke, on the other hand, appears to have alot of security generated
from the devotion and love he has for his friends (and the feelings
they have for him).  LUKE DOES NOT NEED VADER AS MUCH AS VADER FEELS
HE NEEDS LUKE. Luke can easily have a stronger will than VADER, but
VADER sees a way to break his will, by telling him in a truthful tone
that he is Luke's father. Luke is indeed tailspinning because of this,
but his senses don't fail him and he recovers admirably. He keeps
slipping into it until they get into Hyperspace because VADER is
strong at the exact point where Luke is weak.  VADER uses this
"advantage" to win Luke's trust and confidence.

I think Yoda percieves that Luke's love/devotion to his friends (Han
Solo, Leia, Chewbacca, the Rebellion, etc. etc.) is stronger in him
than the elements of evil which could force him to the dark side. At
least this is Yoda's "Other Hope".

Again, there is a duality:

If VADER is Luke's father, Then VADER turned on the Jedi's by using
the dark side. Luke will have to avenge this even if it means killing
his father.

If VADER is not luke's father, then Luke will avenge VADER's lie, his
father's death (at the hands of VADER), *and* VADER's crimes against
the Jedi.

It should be clear here why VADER being Luke's father is
insignificant.  Either way, the Jedi will have their revenge against
VADER, because Luke will have to defend the Rebellion against VADER
and against the Emperor. He will defeat and kill VADER in "Revenge of
the Jedi".

All of this will happen BEFORE Luke becomes a Jedi. In fact, Luke will
decide AFTER the rebellion is over to finish the Jedi training. Han
and Leia will marry and Han will live like a king everafter (that's of
course what he wants, eh?), free to explore space in the Millenium
Falcon...

Donations, Royalties, etc. to me, c/o this station (after the movie
comes out, of course).

				[--JSol--]


------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 82 23:11:41-EST (Sat)
From: Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Ice Cream Freezers

I assume that they needed some objects to fill out scenes, and they 
(prop and set designers) used electric ice cream freezers.  These are
the type that you might use at home, minus the elctrical cord, and
spray painted a flat color.  The most blatant use in ST:TESB is the
scene in the floating city (the name escapes me at the moment) when
Lando tells the citizens to run for it.  Amidst the people in the
background running around is one person with a freezer under his arm
(motor grill facing the screen) running about.  Saving his peppermint
swirl, no doubt.  That is not the only such scene.  Anybody else seen
them?  They're sort of like the fnords....

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982  13:33-EST
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN at MIT-MC>
Subject: Just a note to throw in on Star Wars:

Re: The real relationship between Darth Vader and Luke...

The word "Vader" is Dutch for "father".

Dave();

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982  14:10-EST
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN at MIT-MC>
Subject: Prediction for Star Trek III

I have the following prediction that I thought I might share with the
readers, not as a "wait 'till the movie and see if I'm right", but as
an idea which might, at the very least, promote some discussion as to
the details and loose ends in TWOK. In any event, I would like to see
a movie that the following basic plot:(I'd love to see point G. become
a Star Trek reality, especially if the producers and/or actors are
thinking of wrapping up the whole Star Trek idea.

Given the following background from ST:TWOK and the series:

a) Kahn is the Bad guy and, though some may argue otherwise,
        is VERY EVIL(at least so at the very point of his death).

b) When the Genesis bomb detonates, Kahn is the closest one to it,
        therfore we cann assume, in fantasy, that his evilness
        (and most of his body matter) is distributed over the area
        which includes the genesis planet.

c) Therefore it would not be surprising to find the planet has an evil
        essence about it.

d) Spock is dead. But we're only sure that his body is no longer
        functioning. We all suspect that somehow, Spock has saved his
        essence inside McCoy's brain... ("Remember!")

e) Spock's body is sent in a photon torpedo case to the "new"
        planet.

f) Spock looks like the devil. Not only is this obvious to the viewer,
        but it is mentioned in at least one episode of the series
        ((sorry: no title)The American Flag/U.S. Constitution episode)
        and I believe, but am not sure, somewhere in TWOK. Anyways...

We conclude:

g) Therefore, I think that Kahn's evil essence will posess Spock's
        mind. We already know that Nemoy has signed for the new film,
        so he's going to be in it in some form or another. Put them
        together and what do we get:an incredibly intelligent vulcan
        with an unparalelled cunning and desire for revenge.

h) Now this will present a problem for Kirk and the Enterprise crew,
        (which should be one hour and 30 minutes of the next film) but
        who is the only one that can really save Spock?

g) (The Clincher:)
        Dr. McCoy, who since the word "go" has been at odds with
        Spock's ideals of logic and inner-battle against being human,
        will be the only one who can free him from his demonic
        enslavement(and save the universe). And thus, 1) DeForrest
        Kelly finally get's an important part and 2) The longtime
        rivalry will    come to an end in a heroic act of courage.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1982 2132-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Favorite Trek Episodes

        I can't really narrow it down to one episode, but "Mirror,
Mirror" was indeed one of them.

        My other favorites are, not in any particular order, are:  "A
Piece of the Action", "The Trouble with Tribbles", "The Immunity
Syndrome", "The Doomsday Machine", and "Balance of Terror".

        I enjoyed most of the episodes, but these stick out as my
favorites.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 82 09:09:56 EST  (Sun)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: C&W SF (bletch!)

`The Green Hills of Earth' was mentioned in Robert Heinlien's `Farmer
In the Sky'. I don't think he had any verses in the book, but it was
mentioned a number of times. Oh well, if it's C&W, it can't be too
much good (not mutant enough).
                                        -andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 82 14:03-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Review: The Last Unicorn

n511  2256  26 Nov 82
BC-UNICORN-11-27
    A MOVIE REVIEW
    By Roger Ebert
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    THE LAST UNICORN, with the voices of Alan Arkin, Mia Farrow,
Christopher Lee, Jeff Bridges, Paul Frees and Angela Lansbury. Rated
G. 3 1/2 stars.

    Not until I saw ''The Last Unicorn,'' a movie with a special
poetry, did I realize how much of the magic has gone out of animated
films.  I've been reviewing animation recently on the basis of its
technique - whether classic Disney ''full animation'' is used, or
whether the backgrounds just sit there while the foregrounds move.
''The Last Unicorn'' reminded me that if an animated film contains
grace, magic, imagination and humor, the technique isn't that
important.
    That's not to say that this movie doesn't have good technique.
It's extraordinarily intriguing to look at. To be sure, every leaf on
every tree doesn't sway in the wind; like a lot of modern animators,
the makers of ''Unicorn'' use mostly static backgrounds. But the
characters and locations in this movie have been drawn so well that
they have an eccentric charm entirely apart from their movement. This
movie looks drawn by artists, not craftsmen.
    The language also is special. Many animated films limit themselves
to Saturday morning cartoonese. Even a recent, ambitious animated
feature, ''The Secret of NIMH,'' made its characters speak a sort of
basic, colorless, squeaky-simple English. In contrast, listen to the
language of ''The Last Unicorn,'' some of which is surely drawn from
the novel by Peter Beagle. Here are words, concepts, rhythms, fancies
and conceits to stretch a kid's imagination and give adults something
they can listen to instead of just monitor.
    How did anyone ever get the idea in the first place that a kid
should understand every word in a story? The words you didn't know
were the ones where the magic lurked! There would be a sentence made
up of words you knew, but ending with an amazing collection of
syllables like sorcerer or incantation or labyrinth.
    The story of ''The Last Unicorn'' appealed to me because it was
told with such special words and images. It involves a unicorn who
fears that she is, indeed, the last of her kind, even though that
doesn't make sense since unicorns are supposed to be immortal. But
where did the other unicorns go? A bebop butterfly fills her in: They
all got chased away by a mysterious red bull.
    Setting off in search of the bull, the little unicorn is captured
by a wicked witch and imprisoned in a carnival zoo. But then she's
rescued by a plucky young magician (who is still trying to get the
hang of his magic). They travel off to the kingdom where the red bull
took the other unicorns, and get involved in a labyrinthine plot
involving an old king, a young prince, a skeleton that talks, a
magician who schemes and the sad, sad fate of the unicorns.
    I liked all this stuff. There were actually times when I felt
caught up in this story in ways that hadn't happened to me at an
animated film in a long time. ''The Last Unicorn'' has such narrative
strength and such visual and verbal imagination that it represents a
real triumph of storytelling - making me realize that, for quite a
while now, animation, even good animation, has been depending on
technology rather than on dreams.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #92
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, November 29, 1982 8:37PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #92
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 92

Today's Topics:
    Books - Chalker's "Wellworld" series, Harrison's The Stainless Steel
	    Rat, Wolfe's "The Book of the New Sun", Asimov's Foundation's
	    Edge, Mushroom Planet, Binary Star, Hubbard's Battlefield Earth
    Queries - explosive decompression
    T.V. - favorite Star Trek episodes, Dr. Who players
    Movies - the Other in SW/TESB, Dark Crystal, Blade Runner
    Music - "Green Hills of Earth", Childhood's End
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 10:05 EST
Subject: re : Chalker's "Wellworld" series
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.Henr@Parc-maxc>

I read these, and have a rather low opinion of them.  The first book 
was good, the next two were OK, but the last two were awful hokey.  I
found Chalker's lapses in plot consistency and use of `scientific' 
buzzwords annoying to the point of distraction.  I'm still not sure 
what/who Nathan Brazil is : human? God? bloodred turnip with 
tentacles? Wandering Jew? pathological liar?

It strikes me that he spent a lot of time on the first book, had an
idea for two more, which he wrote in about half the time; and then
decided to write two more, which he slapped together in about a month,
using previous characters to avoid having to think of too many new
ones.

                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 10:50:07 EST (Monday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: stainless steel rat and shrinking.

I've just finished the Stainless Steel Rat for President.  I did not
enjoy it as much as the previous volumes.  I haven't read the others
in quite a while, but my impression was that DeGriz was not quite as
arrogant and infallible in the earlier stories.  There were some nice
lines (especially the names for the SSR in other languages, which is
wonderful), but I was somewhat bored with the repetition of "trap the
rat, rat bites" episodes.  I also had this odd feeling that the DeGriz
family reminded me of something, and I finally realized that they are
quite similar to (though more dangerous than) the Addams family
(especially as portrayed in Addams' cartoons, as opposed to TV).

I would recommend this one for SSR afficionados only.

The (Incredible) Shrinking Man (Woman).

I think that these were based on a novel called The Shrinking Man by
Richard Matheson (I believe that's the name).  I haven't read this one
in a long time, either, but I remember that it wasn't bad, and that
the main plot device (not counting various adventures at different
sizes) was wondering what would happen when he shrunk to zero...

                                        -ben-

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 Nov 1982 09:33-PST
From: Mike Urban <Mike at UCLA-SECURITY>
Subject: Book of the New Sun

   As someone noted, Sword of the Lictor (third in Gene Wolfe's "Book
of the New Sun") is now available in Timescape paperback.  I bought it
at Loscon this weekend.
   Citadel of the Autarch (the fourth and final volume) is the current
SF Book Club selection (along with Life, the Universe and Everything.
What a pairing!!).  At Chicon, Gene Wolfe said that he planned an
additional novel (probably only one volume) dealing with events after 
the end of the Book of the New Sun.
   The Book of the New Sun is outstanding.  Because it was completely
written and edited before publication (like Lord of the Rings), it is
not really a series but is a long novel that has submitted to the
economics of publishing.  So people like Our Beloved Editor who don't
like "series" stories will find it a different beast entirely.
   Gene Wolfe will be autographing at Dangerous Visions bookstore in
Los Angeles on Tuesday evening.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 1655-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Foundations Edge and beyond

        Having just read FOUNDATIONS EDGE, I think it's a very
interesting book.  It is, however, somewhat weird toward the end when
stuff from THE END OF ETERNITY, THE REST OF THE ROBOTS, and PEBBLE IN
THE SKY get into it.  Asimov as much as admitted that he set up the
book to allow a sequel.  Based on the events and loose ends left in
EDGE, and his other books, especially PEBBLE IN THE SKY, I think it
will be something like this:

        Remembering that in PEBBLE, a Terran scientist discovered a 
"mind-expander" which had the effect of awaking high level mentalic
ability in people, and that Terra resolved to keep this secret from
the rest of the galaxy (which was almost destroyed by the Terrans, but
for the actions of the protagonist, a 20th century man transported
into the future) it would appear that lost Earth is the seat of a
group of high level mentalics.  They have been around longer that both
Gaia and the Foundations, and also have the advantage that their
powers can be awakened at full strength almost instantly.  Gaia was
able to hide from the Second Foundation; Earth could very likely hide 
its power from both.  And so the fifth book will involve Gaia and the
Second Foundation both hunting for Earth, which has secretly been
manipulating the galaxy for its own purposes.  Poor Hari Seldon.  I'll
bet he had no idea there was so much going on in the galaxy when he
devised his Plan.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1982 1326-CST
From: marick at DTI (Brian Marick)
Subject: Mushroom Planet, Binary Star, Anthony Villiers

The Mushroom Planet books were written by Eleanor Cameron.  There are,
I believe, about five of them.  The first is "The Wonderful Voyage to
the Mushroom Planet" (or thereabouts) and the last is something of the
form "X, Y, and Mr. Bass".  As I recall, the books get more
sophisticated as the series progressed -- my ten year old self thought
the last was very adult.  Since then, I've reread only the first book.
Alas, the memory was better than the real thing, so I've not reread
any of the others.


I tried ordering the "Binary Star" with the Vernor Vinge story; Dell 
said they were out of stock. At least one bookstore in the country 
(Uncle Hugo's in Minneapolis) had one copy last week.

Alexei and Cory Panshin have started their own small press. Coming 
soon (next year?) will be "The Universal Pantograph", the long-awaited
fourth book in the Anthony Villiers series.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1982 0145-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <Comsw3203-2x.P-Trei at CU20C at CMUC>
Subject: Battlefield Earth (for SFL)

[Permanent Committee to Overthrow the Government next Thursday after
lunch]

        (Yes Virginia, there ARE SF-Lovers in New York)
        Last week I dropped into The Science Fiction Shop.  I noticed 
'Battlefield Earth' in the hardcover section, and asked about it.  It 
seems that the book has zero to do with Scientology, and here are some
more-or-less accurate quotes from the folks there:

"How bad is it? It's SO bad......"

"It's selling like hotcakes."

"Bad enough for five books."

"We've received offers of $250 for the signed boxed edition."  [Which
does not exist yet and lists for $125]

"I'm thinking of getting a signed copy as an investment. I normally 
dont like to buy literature purely for profit, but this does'nt 
count."

From Baird's as-yet-unpublished reveiw:  "Not only has Mr. Hubbard not
written any science fiction in the last thirty years, he apparently
hasent read any."

(All these quotes are a week stale, and possibly inaccurate. I
apologise for both misquotes and any letterbombs.)

                                        Peter Trei
                                        <comsw3203-2x.p-trei>@cu20c

PS: Columbia is not on the net, so dont try to reply directly to me.

                                        PT

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 11:39 PST
From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: explosive decompression

Clarke has written a short story involving the process of a man who
must go unprotected into space for a short time.  In an interview, he
discussed the story, and what is and isn't known about it the matter.
The effects of the zero pressure didn't seem to be as much a problem
as the direct exposure to sunlight (this took place near the Earth,
2001 takes place much further away).

Sorry, I can't locate the story or interview.  The novelization of
2001 might also discuss it.  Lawrerence

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 15:18 EST
From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Explosive Decompression

        "30 seconds at a probability factor of 8,137,445 to one
against and falling, which just happens to be the phone number of a
very good..."

A very good *what*?  Statistician?  Burly spaceship guard?  For a good
time call...?  Don't keep us in suspense any longer.

                        - Michel

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 12:47 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Decompression

There's a big debate on SPACE@MIT-MC regarding space suits, low
pressure suits and no suits.  If you want any of it let me know.  I
don't care to clutter a lilerary DL with a load of hardware talk.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 09:49 EST
From: Kovnat.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Best ST episode

I don't remember the title but my vote for the best Star Trek episode
goes to the following story:

In this episode McCoy accidently injects himself with a very strong
drug during a magnetic storm whose source seems to be the surface of
the planet that the Enterprise is orbiting.  McCoy subsequently goes
mad, beams down and jumps through a mysterious machine which shows all
of time, both past and future.  Kirk and Spock follow McCoy into the
machine and end up in depression era USA a few years before the
outbreak of WWII.  They wind up in a soup kitchen run by (I can't
remember her name) but during the story, Kirk falls in love with her.
Spock meantime determines that this woman has two possible futures:
either she will become the leader of a national peace movement that
will delay the entrance of the US into the war, resulting in Nazi
victory and therefore Kirk's and Spock's world will never exist, OR
she gets killed in a car accident.

Without spoiling more most of you probably recognize this episode by
now.  It was written by Harlan Ellison and is not only my favorite ST
episode but also in my opinion one of the best episodes of any TV
series ever.  Why?  In one hour the story flows from danger to humor
(Kirk trying to explain Spock's ears to a 1930's policeman) to love to
frustration (Kirk's because of his knowledge of the two fates of the
woman and Spock's because of his trying to repair his tricoder "with
little more than stone-age knives" (this quote may be slightly off) --
one of the few times we Spock actually get what may be called angry).
It all hangs together and flows.  The writing is a cut above standard
TV fare thanks to HE and finally (this may be apochryphal) the episode
is noteworthy because it is the first time that the word "Let's get
the HELL out of here" was heard on a prime-time network show.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 1024-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Favorite Star Trek episode


My vote goes to "The City at the Edge of Forever" by Harlan Ellison.
In essence it is a time paradox story, nicely done, pitting Kirk's
sense of duty (to ensure that his future occurs) against the life of
the woman he has fallen in love with.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst
Date: 29-Nov-82 14:22:32 EST
Subject: Random notes

Time to purge the tubeside notebook buffer into the network:

There was a whole stack of paperback copies of Sword of the Lictor at
the Left Bridge Bookshop in Fairport New York as of today's lunch
hour; they should be percolating westward in the next few days.  I had
the good fortune of having dinner with Gene Wolfe a couple of months
ago, and asked him how many of his "fancy words" he had invented.
Answer:  None.  All are either completely legitimate archaisms, or
else portmanteau combinations of legitimate words.  No smerps!  I
checked more than a few in the OED and located them all.  What a mind!
The "fifth book in the series" (it really isn't part of the series)
will probably be called The Urth of the New Sun, and it will contain
Severian.  However, the story line is completely independent of the
first four books.

I believe that Beowolf Shaeffer once had to schlep Carlos Wu across
hard vacuum in a Larry Niven story which I think was called "The
Borderland of Sol"{ 1974} and cautioned Wu to keep his mouth OPEN.
One wonders why...

I remember (God knows why) a beebop song from the early sixties called
"Haunted House."  It was largely about monsters and such, but had this
peculiar verse:

        From outer space there came a man,
        Drank the hot grease from the frying pan,
        "Hey that's hot!" I began to shout--
        Drank the hot coffee right from the spout...

If we've dug this far for SF in populasr music, I think we may have at
long last struck bottom.


Rather than poll on the best Star Trek episode, how about the worst?  
My top five votes all go to the silly thing about the Yangs and the
Comes.  Having to watch Kirk receite the Pledge of Allegience to the
Flag is about as embarrassing as having your maiden aunt inform you
that your fly is open.  Or worse.

TV SF suffers from dry rot because most TV SF is series based, and in 
a series you cannot allow your characters to either gain or lose
anything important from episode to episode.  Character evolution is
what makes good fiction, in any genre or any medium.  TV could do
excellent low budget SF by adopting an anthology format similar to
Night Gallery and resisting the temptation to play toward the kiddies.
But don't look for it; I gave up TV as a whole to the scrap pile years
ago.

Nothing yet beats the printed word.  Cherish it.


--Jeff Duntemann (Duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC)

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 16:14:50 CST (Monday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Favorite Star Trek episode


Sorry, guys. The BEST Star Trek episode was "The Menagerie."

        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 82 23:44:33-PST (Sun)
From: Stephen Willson <willson.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: the other

From Rolling Stone, June 12, 1980, an interview with George Lucas (by
Jean Vallely):

Jean: "... Let's get back to 'The Empire Strikes Back' for a moment.
In the movie, Ben says Luke is the last hope and Yoda says, no, there
is another."

Lucas: "Yes. [Smiling] There is another, and has been for a long time.
You have to remember, we're starting in the middle of this whole
story.  There are six hours' worth of events before STAR WARS, and in
those six hours, the 'other' becomes apparent, and after the third
film, the 'other' becomes apparent quite a bit."

Jean: "What will happen to Luke?"

Lucas: "I can't say.  In the next film, everything gets resolved one
way or the other.  Luke won the first battle in the first film.  Vader
won the second battle in the second film, and in the third film, only
one of them walks away.  We have to go back to the very beginning to
find out the real problem."

Also, I remember someone on this list dialed in and said that when
Lucas saw the speculation that had gone on on the list his response
was, "Remember the clone wars.  Anything could have happened." or
words to that effect.

So, based on all this, my speculation is:

1)  Luke marries the Emperor's daughter to unify the Empire.
2)  The other is an as yet unknown character.
3) The real meat of this is the Father vs. Son conflict.  How is it
that a good guy like ob1 would hide the truth from Luke about his
Father?  He wouldn't.  But Luke searches his feelings in TESB and
seems convinced that Vader is his father (Vater in German means,
"father".)  Ergo, both facts are true courtesy of the Clone Wars.
Luke will kill his pseudo-father.
4) Outside prediction: most of the final battle will take place at the
Emperor's place.  The general scheme will be similar to Episode IV:
while the remaining rebel forces battle the Emperor's forces, the real
battle will be happening between Luke, ob1, Yoda, Darth, the Emperor,
and the "other" (the Emperor's daughter who will no doubt slay the
Emperor as a big surprise).  This last bit because Jedi don't seek
revenge, and Lucas, who seems to have some Zen in him, no doubt wants
the evil forces to be self-destructive.
5) Leia is the daughter of a Senator.  She's not bigtime royalty.  She
and Han will get married the same time Luke and the "other" do.

                                -- In hopes of inspiring discussion,
                                -- Steve Willson
                                -- UC Irvine

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 November 1982  11:53-EST
From: Skef Wholey <Wholey at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: The end of Luke's twerpiness and his clonely dad

    From: Nathaniel Mishkin <Mishkin at YALE>
    Subject: The Other

    Perhaps he's not the twerpy and
    irresponsible "I've got to go help my friends, damn the training"
guy
    I thought he was.

Indeed.  It looked to me like Obi Wan was acting (badly) when he was
trying to get Luke to stay.  Seems that his leaving training could
have been a form of test or a part of his training.  He did what was
right and good, not what his teachers wanted him to.  Also, somewhere
between the beginning and the end of the movie people (like Han) stop
calling him ``kid.''  It looks like he's matured or something.  How
about that!  Character development!

    From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
    Subject: The Other [rebuttal]

            On a similar note, I would like to put forth the
    following theory:  If Darth Vader is indeed Luke's father,
    than I propose that Obi Wan is Darth Vader's father.
    Like father, like son, eh?

Hey, people!  Why have you all forgotten the CLONE WARS?  I'll bet
good money that there's at least one clone in the Luke, Darth, Obi
Wan, and Luke's dad group.  To explain Darth being Luke's daddy: Luke
could be a clone of Darth, or Darth could be a clone of Luke's real
dad (whoever he was).

--Skef

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 12:08 PST
From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SW:ROTJ


Darth Vader wants help from his son overthrowing the Emperor, so
together they can be new Emperors.  Luke Skywalker wants to end the
evil Empire.  Together they will defeat the Emperor, but both (or at
least Vader) will perish in the process, cleaning up the loose ends.
The "other", the new hope of the Jedi, will carry the flame on to the
next bunch of movies.

Lawrerence

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 1528-EST
From: Gregg Wolff <GW8A at TOPSB at CMUC>
Subject: Dr. Who

Dr. Who 1:WILLIAM HARTNELL
Dr. Who 2:PATRICK TROUGHTON
Dr. Who 3:JON PERTWEE
Dr. Who 4:TOM BAKER
Dr. Who 5:PETER DAVISON

Basing my information on facts revealed in The Three Doctors episode
there were no other incarnations [i.e. not covered in the series].
Peter Cushing also played the Doctor in two feature length films
released in the 1960's.  Peter Davison I believe can be seen in the
HHGTHG TV Series playing the Dish of the Day. One other additional
note: The BBC has just released a few more Dr. Who stories including
one story from each of the incarnations.

-Gregg

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 1020-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: "Green Hills of Earth"


Ralph Winter, an important figure in experimental jazz, has set the 
words of Heinlein's "Green Hills of Earth" to music in a new work, 
"Missa Gaia" ("Earth Mass"), which he recorded at the Grand Canyon and
in the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York. In an interview
on NPR's "All Things Considered" he explained the genesis of this
work, and mentioned the story of Rhysling, the blind
spaceman/balladeer.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982  9:44:12 CST (Monday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Eskimo Nell?


There's a particular rhyme/song/something to the title of "Eskimo 
Nell". I've got a friend who wants a copy. Can anybody help me out?

If it's what I think, probably you shouldn't send a copy to the 
SF-LOVERS list. If there's sufficient interest, I will send copies to
interested parties...

        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 29 Nov 1982 09:52-PST
Subject: The Dark Crystal


  The Dark Crystal was first announced in a big way at Worldcon last
year in Denver, where there were storyboards and stills and the like.
At that time, principal photography was just being finished, and a
summer release was anticipated.  Would YOU have wanted to release a 
fantasy film this summer?  They wisely decided to wait and build their
publicity for a Dec 17 release.  At Chicon, an additional presentation
was given, including a 6-minute clip which, the audience was told, was
from the completed film.

The film is your basic quest story in which the young hero Jen and the
heroine Kiri (the last of the Gelfling race) are called upon the end
the power of the evil Skeksis, who use the Dark Crystal for their evil
purposes.

The original artwork by Brian Froud ("Faeries") has been skillfully
realized by Jim Henson's artisans. A museum exhibit of the characters,
sets, and props (artifacts?)  from the film was recently on display in
Los Angeles at a folk-art museum.  There was also a video-tape
promotion film (this film was also at Chicon and on the streets of 
Westwood Village, in different versions).

If the story is any good at all, this will be a wonderful film; the
"look" of it is beautiful, at least.  And no, Frank Oz is NOT the
voice of Augrah (sp?), the earlier publicity films were "rough cuts"
in which he provided an interim voice that made Augrah seem like
Yoda's grandmother.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 82 14:24:42-EST (Sun)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: blade runner query, kid sf


I just got around to seeing "Blade Runner" this weekend, and I now
dimly recall an argument in this digest about smallpox scars - I don't
remember any discussion of such from the movie.  Did I miss something,
or was the print I saw missing something ?

Re juvenile sf - I read the Mushroom Planet books, too, and had
completely forgotten them until seeing them mentioned here.  Another
excellent book, as I recall, was "A Wrinkle In Time".  Fairly good
adventure, science involvement, non-sexist plot, neat aliens.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 1982 1602-PST
From: Don Voreck <VORECK at USC-ISIB>
Subject: Correction Correction Childhood's End

 My claim was that the song was about the book. I only told about
parts of the book that the song seemed to talk about.
 YES the children DO leave in space ships contrary to the
contradiction and they also return to the earth as and destroy it as
David Lewin described.
 Sure my spoiler leaves out most of the book, including the
conclusion.  I only gave the parts of the plot which I felt were
relevant to the song. It is a valid explanation of that sub plot and a
huge spoiler. It is a very long book and a very short verse.

  Don

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #93
*** EOOH ***
Return-Path: <@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1982 10:00PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #93
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 93

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Gilliand's * from Rosinante, Vinge's Refugees from
                Heaven's Belt, Childhood's End spoiler, Adams' HHGttG,
                Chalker's Diamond & Wellworld series, Wolfe's Book of the
                New Sun series
    Queries - decompression, minimal spacesuits
    Themes  - shrinking
    T.V.    - HHGttG, favorite Star Trek episodes
    Movies  - Star Trek, Revenge of the Jedi trailer, the Other in
                Star Wars / TESB
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 18:31:11 EST (Tuesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: * from Rosinante

This weekend I read three excellent books, all by Alexis A.
Gilliland:  "Revolution from Rosninante," "Long Shot for Rosinante,"
and "The Pirates of Rosinante."


Mundito (little world) Rosinante is an O'Neill space colony orbiting
the asteroid Rosinante, constructed by the government of the North
American Union.  Of the two planned companion munditos, Don Quixote is
destroyed in a labor dispute over back pay, and Sancho Panza is
proxmired.

The three books tell the story of how Rosinante becomes independent,
and then how it takes on the Japanese Navy in an undeclared, bloodless
war.

The heroes of this book are Engineers (plus one plucky strategist and
a computer prone to prophecy and Humphrey Bogart imitations).  They
think nothing of building a 20 kilometer long, solar-mirror pumped gas
laser in a pinch (but then, they're used to building 7km-in-diameter,
50km-long habitats and they still have the equipment lying around).

These books are also about politics, they're sort of Allen Drury
novels in the sky.  Fortunately, they don't suffer the liability that
Drury's or Pournelle's novels do--the villains are painted in shades
of grey, not swaths of black, and have believable motives, and aren't
simply Evil.  Some of the villains aren't even villains, and some of
the heroes just happen to be on the right side.  In other words, just
like real people.

Any way, if you're looking for some Space Fiction, with space ships
and places to go in them, these books are pretty good.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 18:53:08 EST (Tuesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: Joan D. Vinge's 'Refugees from Heaven Belt'


Heaven Belt is the perfect planetary system for space colonists:  one
gigantic asteroid-belt, with a single gas-giant.  With all those
asteroids you don't have to dig very deep to get all the minerals you
need.

But, what happens when you have a civil war?

On a planet, like Earth, if you have a war that blows you back to the
stone-age, well, tough.  But you'll live.

In space, where EVERYTHING is manufactured--even your air and
water--you can't afford to get blown back to the 20th Century, let
alone the stone age, or everybody dies.

That's the point of ``Outcasts of Heaven Belt'' by Joan D. Vinge.
It's a story about a ship sent to Heaven Belt by people on a colonized
world (called Morningside), hoping to do some trading with the people
of the fabulously-rich Heaven Belt system.  When they get there, they
find that, due to a civil war (the "reasons" for which are never
explained) some 30 years ago, the system has been deteriorating,
things going unrepaired, etc.  The resources of the system are being
exhausted simply trying to keep things running.

When the ship from Morningside arrives, the rival powers of the
Demarchy and the Grand Harmony are each desperate to get ahold of it,
and use it to keep their people alive just a little longer.  The
people on the ship, who have lost most of their number in the initial
attack by the Grand Harmony, just want to go home.  In order to return
home, the people on the ship have to refuel, which means contact, and
the danger of capture.

But they also can't leave the system, with its hundreds of thousands
of people, to die.

Good book.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 82 20:30:14 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Decompression

        From: CMP.TAYLOR at UTEXAS-20

        It seems to me that if you kept your mouth shut, you should be
        able to survive zero atomosphere for about 30 seconds.
        I suspect that if you opened your mouth that the lungs would
be
        much the worse for wear.

I doubt that keeping your mouth shut is what you want. For one thing,
how would you close your nose, and if you didn't, what good would
closing your mouth do?

The navy trains submarine crewmembers for emergency underwater
evacuation by having them enter a deep water tank, through an airlock
at the bottom, and float to the surface with the aid of a life
preserver or some such device.  As they drift toward the surface they
must continually expell air from their lungs to avoid injury.

The pressure change they go through in this exercise is several
atmospheres. I'm not sure what kind of injury you would suffer from
attempting to hold a mere one atmosphere in your lungs. On the other
hand, if you let all the air out of your lungs you might run the
danger of having your lungs collapse. Probably the ``right'' thing to
do is to retain just a little air in your lungs.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982  6:38:15 CST (Tuesday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Minimal spacesuits

The perfect (and minimal) spacesuit is, of course, none at all.
Therefore, ent, as that rder to determine how often and how much life
support has to be provided to keep you alive in a vacuum. There have
been various stories that use this idea. In particular, `Forever
Enemy' by Howard L.  Myers in the December '70 Analog describes the
adventures of a person who . His own life-support system includes a
gas converter in his throat, a stomach balloon, builtin radio, and
(interstellar) transport system. There is a story (sorry, no
author/title) that opens with an attack force of people so outfitted
materializing above a planet.  I like that image...

A more interesting question than what a perfect spacesuit is is how
close can we come to the above system in the next couple ofdecades?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 20:29:34 EST  (Tue)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: explosive decompression

        From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC

        Clarke has written a short story involving the process of a
man
        who must go unprotected into space for a short time. . . .
The
        effects of the zero pressure didn't seem to be as much a
problem
        as the direct exposure to sunlight.

I also read that story (title unknown). It concerned a dormitory
compartment for the construction crew working on a partially completed
space station.  They wake up one ``morning'' to find that they are in
zero gravity and realize the compartment must have seperated from the
rotating space station.  Being sensible types, since they have no
space suits in the compartment, they don't open any of the doors which
normally lead to adjoining compartments.  Meanwhile, the others at the
station notice what has happened, rush out to rescue them, and
communicate with them by banging on the compartment walls in morse
code (or some such primitive means) to tell them when they have a
spaceship with an open airlock door lined up as best they can with a
compartment door.

What about other forms of radiation in open space?

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982  8:18:35 EST (Tuesday)
From: Drew M. Powles <dpowles at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: childhood's end...possibly a spoiler

to Don Voreck:  correction on the correction of your correction ,etc.

Read your book again.......They do not leave in spaceships.  The
centaur creatures leave the earth after they have done their part:
somehow allowing the Overmind (correct name?) to influence the
children.  The earth is destroyed as the children are raised to a
higher plane to join the Overmind (hence Childhood's End.....the end
of the Childhood of the Human Race) All the adults have long since
died out, but one lone human adult who had stowed away in a centaur
spaceship and then returned with very little of his relative time
passing because of the time affects of the centaur method of space
travel describes the destruction of the earth and the raising of the
children to the Overmind over a communication device to the centaurs
as they leave the earth (bit of a long sentence there, i'm afraid).

as i said, take a look at it again, closely.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 1542-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: shrinking

        Gulliver's travels might be considered examples of shrinking
and growing, although in a metaphorical sense, when Gulliver goes to
Lilliput and Brobdingnag.

        Also, there is a series of books about the "Micronauts".  I
have never read any, but they do seem to involve shrinking.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 18:26:25 EST (Tuesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: good news for HHGttG fans

Good news, Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy fans, Douglas Adams, in
an interview this evening on ``All things considered'' revealed that,
after he finished the second book (``Restaraunt at the end of the
universe'' he swore on the souls of his many ancestors that he would
not write a third HHG book.  Now that he's finished the third book,
he's swearing on the souls of the ancestors of many of his friends
that he won't write a fourth, but, he hasn't started on it yet....

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 17:28:22-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Shrinking in HHGttG

     As usual, HHGttG takes a standard sf cliche (the aliens who are
deadly, but tiny), and warps it beautifully into its plot.  It's not
really 'shrinking', but it's still well done:  The episode (inserted
as Arthur is being led into the bowels of Magrathea by Slartibartfast)
I refer to is that dealing with the war between the V'l'hurg and the
G'gugvunt [sp?], caused by Arthur's line "I've been having problems
with my lifestyle lately" being sucked through a wormhole in space.
When the combatants recognize that it's actually due to an ape
descendant that they're fighting, they combine their fleets and send
them off to destroy Earth.  Alas, on arrival the entire fleet is
swallowed by a dog!
     The TV version of this scene, by the way, has the battle set up
as an arcade game -- a very nice touch.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 17:47:30-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Miscellaneous Comments

1) "The Citadel of the Autaurch" is not really "currently available"
from the sf book club.  They announced it for their November
selection, but this mailing had gone out before the publisher and
author announced a 2-3 month delay because Wolfe wanted to make some
revisions.  So, we'll see when it actually appears...

2) I think the "Mushroom Planet" books were written by Eleanor Estes
Cameron, who also wrote "The Shy Stegosaurus of Cricket Creek,"
another fine kids sf book.

3) I've enjoyed Jack Chalker's 'Well World' and 'Diamond' series,
though he's far from being a perfect writer.  His ideas are, quite
often, a few steps ahead of his technique, especially in the realm of
characterization.  In some ways, his stuff is pure "Golden Age" sf,
though leavened a bit by contemporary mores and a greater interest in
the 'soft' sciences.  By the way, many (tho' not all) of the various
hexes in the 'Well World' have names which are very definitely
anagrams of those of major sf authors and/or characters; they're fun
to check out.

4) SF in different media:  I think it's important to note that, with
the possible exception of some forms of visual media, almost all sf
that isn't in written form really starts out that way, and is then
translated.  Movies, radio plays, and the like all have scripts, from
which the director/cast/producer/etc.  must develop the visual
possibilities.  Many illustrations, esp. if they're directly connected
with the publishing industry (books/mags), are also related to a piece
of text.  [And, when they're not, the authors often get annoyed;
e.g.Donald Kingsbury's ire about the fact that the cover to "Courtship
Rite" did not show tattoos that were anything like those described in
his novel.]
    Much of the translation is dependent on the work of the "special
effects artists," of whom little has been said in sfl.  Overall,
they're an impressive crew.  The best source of info for what's going
on in that field, by the way, is not 'Cinefantastique,' but rather a
lesser-known magazine, 'Cinefex,' which does some superb reporting.
Of course, both have a similar problem -- they're dependent
(symbiotically?) on what the various studios will provide them in
terms of illustrations and prints; this does, though, provide the
studios with extra publicity.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 82 19:58:06 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  ST2WOK; inconsistencies

        From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>

        CETI-ALPHI START SYSTEM:

        They land on Planet #5, but think it is #6.  Why?
        . . . the explosion would indeed . . . have shifted the
        orbit of at least #5 . . . This certainly would have been
        noted by astronomers SOMEWHERE.

According to the book, CA-5 and CA-6 were a binary planet.  The
explosion of CA-6 would have a tremendous effect on CA-5 in this case.
Also according to the book, the only previous missions to the Ceti
Alpha system were the Enterprise's visit (which was kept secret to
prevent anyone from trying to rescue Khan), and an unreliable robot
probe some 100 years earlier, so the Reliant's crew wouldn't have
known for certain what to expect. But then, why did Checkov forget
about Khan? Was it because he wasn't in the ``space seed'' episode and
so never knew in the first place?

I am annoyed at movies which require you to read the book to get the
full story. This just means that the movie can't stand on its own.

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1982  12:16-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Best ST episode

Didn't this episode ("City on the Edge of Forever") win a Hugo award?
I agree that it was one of the best episodes - it has many of the
aspects of a good SF/Trek plot (some room for speculation, paradoxes,
and a touch of humor) and seems to be very "together". Still, my vote
for favorite episode goes to "Mirror, Mirror" (a Hugo award nominee,
but not a winner) which I thought was interested since it showed an
interesting alternative look at what the Federation (Empire) and all
of its constituents could have been. Well, I like both time travel and
alternate world SF, so both of these rate high on my list.

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 1538-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Favorite ST episode

        My favorite ST episode is a toss-up between Trouble with
Tribbles, A Piece of the Action, Balance of Terror, and the City at
the Edge of Forever, in no particular order.  This list is also likely
to increase or decrease withour warning depending on my mood when I
see a particular episode.

------------------------------

Date: 30 November 1982 23:42-EST
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: Best ST episode

That is City on the Edge of Forever, Written by Harlan Ellison. The
original script won him a hugo, and is much superior to the (very well
done indeed) story that made it to tv.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 (Wednesday) 0022-EDT
From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally)
Subject: "...out of stone knives and bear skins!"

"The City on the Edge of Forever" is a good choice for best ST
episode.  It won one award (HUGO?) and was the only award winning ST
episode if memory serves me.  One of my favorites was discussed
earlier--"Journey to Babel".  The ambassador was Gav, a Tellerite.  He
was killed by Thelev, an Orion surgically altered to resemble the
antenna bearing Andorians.  Thelev used the ancient Vulcan method of
neckbreaking known as Tal-Shaya (sp?) to put the blame on Spock's
father.  I enjoyed this one for the aliens and the background into
Spock's family.  I also liked "Menagerie", loved the Horta, and
enjoyed meeting Jack the Ripper.  Worst goes to "The Omega Glory" with
"Miri" (remember seeing the North American continent on another
planet?) a close second.  My favorite scene of all I think was the
look on the US Air Force security guard when he was beamed aboard the
Enterprise and given chicken soup.

-]Rick

[The Nicholls encyclopedia gives the following information about Star
Trek Hugos:
        Dramatic presentation 1967 - The Menagerie
        Dramatic presentation 1968 - City on the Edge of Forever
Additionally the latter won the Writers' Guild of America award for
outstanding script 1967-68. -- Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 30 November 1982 0533-EST
From: Don Provan at CMU-10A
Subject: raging movie notes


has everyone forgotten so soon that we never *see* spock's body after
the farewell with kirk?  why's everyone so sure it's in that photon
torpedo shell?  (by the way, that "coffin that has the same shape as a
photon torpedo" has "photon torpedo" written on the side.)

i've been sure that Luke and Leia are brother and sister since seeing
SWII for the first time.  it *has* to be, because there's no other way
out of the love triangle without Luke "losing" Leia, something that
just can't fit into the SW genre.  just because Leia thinks of that
deceased gentleman on the deseased planet as her father doesn't mean
he is actually her flesh and blood father.  i've always hoped that
Leia would be seen going through jedi training, but i guess i was just
dreaming that she'd be the "other".

in the recent discussion, an interesting possibility occured to me:
does anyone out there think that Vadar may be won back away from the
evil side of the force?  if anyone could do it, his talented son might
be able to do it.

that reminds me, i can't imagine them doing anything anywhere near as
complex as having Vadar lie about being Luke's father.  it would take
most of SWIII to explain why he felt the need to lie.  i can't come up
with a single other example of someone lying anywhere in the first two
movies, so i can't imagine such a big lie *and* a lie that is
essential to the plot.

my turn to mouth off....
                                        don

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 82 12:27:14-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!krm at Ucb-C70
Subject: Yoda

I have asked several of my friends why yoda wasn't involved in the war
or the current struggle. The most common opinion is that Yoda was a
*teacher* of the jedi and not a jedi himself.  Yoda would not and
could not fight Vader.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 09:51:45-EST
From: mclean at NRL-CSS (John McLean)
Subject: the other


If Vadar and Luke unite to fight the emperor, could Vadar actually be
the other?  Also, I would like some clarification, if possible, of the
CLONE wars. I've seen reference to these in earlier digests, but was
never sure what to make of it.  In SW1 I heard reference to what I
thought were COLON (rhymes with 'cologne') wars.  I assumed that
'colon' was short for 'colonial'.  What is the evidence that the war
actually involved clones?

jdm

------------------------------

Date: 30-Nov-82 13:24:58-PST (Tue)
From: CSVAX.upstill@Berkeley
Subject: ROTJ trailer


   Would someone who has seen the trailer for Revenge of the Jedi care
to share their impressions with me?  Is it worth seeing independent of
another viewing of Empire?  How long is it?  How
informative/interesting?  I'm thinking of going but not sure if it's
worth going just for that.
   Mail your opinions to me (upstill@UCBVAX) or to the group.

Thanks, Steve

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 19:25:39-EST (Tue)
From: Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Star Wars, or, Cloning Around


I haven't seen it mentioned yet, so was I hallucinating when I noticed
that Obi-Wan and the emperor looked exactly the same?  I even think
their voices were similar.  If you look closely you may notice that
the emperor had a hood over the upper part of his face, but the
similarity was most striking (to me).

If we think in terms of clones then we might speculate that Luke's
father and Darth are clones, the Emperor and ObiWan are clones, and
maybe Luke or Yoda have a clone out there.

My officemate suggests that Yoda is really Luke's father and the last
hope of the Jedi is the mother.  Of course, what will really happen is
that Leia will marry Chewbacca (she loves those hairy, strong types),
Bobba Fett will sell Han to Baskin and Robbins as the flavor of the
month, Lando will suddenly discover he is the only black person in the
galaxy (have you seen any others outside of the ones who died in fight
scenes?) and take the Millenium Falcon to search for his roots, Luke
takes Yoda on the road as a fake ventriloquist act, R2D2 and C3PO run
off with waring blenders (met them at a robot fraternity mixer), Darth
has a change of heart (done at an Aamco shop) and becomes a hood
ornament on a Jawa pimpmobile, and the emperor becomes a benevolent
dictator after he learns to use the power of the force --- gently but
effectively --- on his problem constipation.  The rebel forces,
finding themselves without intelligent, effective leadership (like our
country nowadays) will fly off in search of another movie and
eventually be destroyed in random encounters with the Gallactica, the
Enterprise, and the Jupiter II.

There, does that leave any loose ends?

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 82 19:22:08-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!npoiv!alice!rabbit!wildman at Ucb-C70
Subject: The OTHER, again.

I have also, usually to great laughter at my expense, proposed that
Boba Fett was, if not the OTHER, at least a real good guy.  Consider.
 1) Boba Fett DOES backtalk Vader.  He is the ONLY character, other
than Luke and Obewan, who gets away with it, and the ONLY ONE who gets
away whole.  Furthermore, Vader agrees with Fett in much the same
manner that the soldier in SWIV agrees with Obewan, which seems to
mean that Fett somehow managed to dominate/charm Vader into the
particular action.  Why he saved Solo, then, is not clear, I must
admit.
 2) In all of the (2 so far) movies, the treatment of the character,
as far as music and cinematography, has indicated the goodness/badness
of the character.  Fett, when taking off with Solo, flies off into a
beautiful sunset, gracefully, with his ugly ship sillhouetted (sp,
yes, I know) against the sunset so that it looks actually nice, and
with HEROIC music, NOT heavy music.  Seems a BIt strange.  (This is
what actually first caught my attention)
 3) BF is mentioned as the person who can always find the man.
Interesting, but not conclusive.
 4) We already know that Leia has some sensitivity to the force, so
her detection of a TRAINED and DESPERATE Luke doesn't make me that
surprised.
 5) When the disturbance in in the force is strong, Leia, Luke, and
Fett are withing touching distance.  Hmmmm.  Colletively they can
control Sharra, perhaps??? <Inside joke...>


Why don't we all wait until next April and see for ourselves?

P.S.  Wasn't the quote "The Jedi does not CRAVE revenge."  I have
certainly gotten things that I do NOT crave.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 (Wednesday) 0025-EDT
From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally)
Subject: another other

Emperor:  "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

   Are we so sure he meant Luke's dad?

  Just a thought.

-]Rick

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 1982 1527-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: SW:TESB

        The solution to everything is indeed in clones:

1)  Obi-wan fought in the clone wars.  With a slight twist of
    pronunciation his name becomes, as everyone has been
    writing it, Ob1.  Perhaps there are more Ob's?

2)  Luke's father fought in the clone wars.  However he was
    killed by Vader, who later claims to be Luke's father.
    Solution: Vader is a clone of Luke's dad who managed to
    kill the original.  This way both statements are true:
    Ob1's that Vader killed Luke's dad, and Vader's that he
    is Luke's dad.

3)  The other could easily be Boba-Fet.  He wears armor from
    the clone wars, which dates him.  He has never missed a
    kill (before Luke) which could indicate that the force is
    strong in him.  He was able to mask himself (if the force
    is indeed strong in him) from Vader, which not even Ob1
    could do.  Remember, Boba-Fet stood only a few feet from
    Vader, and Vader never felt anything.  This could mean
    either that Boba-Fet has nothing to do with the force, or
    that he is so powerful that no one can tell it if he
    doesn't want them to.  Of course Boba-Fet did miss Luke.
    This could be explained by the Force being stong in Luke,
    but on the other hand, Boba-Fet had him at point blank
    range.  It may be that Boba-Fet wanted to miss, not
    wanting to kill his son: Boba-Fet being, of course, yet
    another clone of Luke's father.

4)  There may be more clones of Ob1 running around, too.
    After all, the hologram of the emperor looked awfully
    familiar...


[This seems to be the most realistic explanation of the Star Wars/TESB
mystery I've seen. Anyone care to try and punch holes in it? --Stuart]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  1-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #94
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 1, 1982 8:09PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #94
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 94

Today's Topics:
    Books  - Asimov's Foundation's Edge, Michener's Space, Chalker's
	     Well World, Wolfe's The Citadel of the Autarch, early reading
	     & book stores
    T.V.   - Battlestar Ponderosa, Star Trek favorites
    Movies - the Other in Star Wars/TESB
    Music  - SF music, filk
    Misc   - bumper sticker
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 20:39:42-EST (Tue)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Foundation's Edge & Gaia


Did anyone else pick up the connection between the planet Gaia and the
Missa Gaia ("Earth Mass") mentioned in a recent issue ?  Asimov has
played name games before, and this fits interestingly with the 
speculations about the role of Earth and the Pebble in the Sky
connection.

jcpatilla

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 82 16:40:43-PST (Mon)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Review of Michener's SPACE

Just read SPACE during a nice trip to Florida.  I thought it to be
very good, and disagree with comments here a few months ago that
Michener was anti-SF.  True, the stars of the book were not young fen,
but when properly introduced to real SF, they responded commendably.
Dr. Mott, one protagonist, was particularly impressed by Weinbaum;
Randy Claggett, the redneck astronaut, was described as a lifelong
fan; and several references are made, favorably, about Asimov,
Heinlein, and Bradbury.

To top it all off, when one (SPOILER!!) astronaut crashes on the moon,
his last words are "Blessed St. Leibowitz, let them keep on dreamin'
down there..."

Who could possibly top that line?


--arlan andrews  btl/abi, indianapolis
--317-845-6197
--POB 1008, Indianapolis, IN 46206

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 21:26:41 EST  (Tue)
From: Tim Maroney <tim.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Well World (spoiler)

If you don't know who Nathan Brazil is after reading all five books, 
you must not have paid much attention to the last one. Nathan Brazil 
was a normal human in the last incarnation but three (I think) of the 
Universe. He was approached by the then-current Well World Repairman, 
who did to him whay he tried to do to Mavra Chang: hung the job on him
and died. The repairman is the person who has to take the system down
when some fool rips a hole in it, or otherwise maginifies a bug in the
program. (This is, needless to say, a rather awful responsibility, 
since the beter part of all the sentients in the Universe die when you
do this. This explains the suicidal tendencies of Well World Repair- 
persons.) Because Brazil belonged to an older version of the Universe,
he was not completely compatible with this one, and thus gave Obie a
serious stomachache when he ran through him. Other than that, the only
special thing about Brazil was that the central computer made sure he
didn't get killed and would let him take the system down.  You are the
first person I've ever heard of who read the series and didn't like
it; try rereading it more carefully.

                                                Tim Maroney
                                                tim.unc@udel-relay
                                                (I think...)

------------------------------

Date: 1-Dec-82 11:33:12-PST (Wed)
From: INGVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Wolfe book was NOT postponed


        The Wolfe book Citidal of the Autarch was not really postponed.
Simon and Schuster are claiming it is a Jan. book, but have already 
released it. I am told that they want to make sure Citidal is not up
against Sword of the Lictor at awards time. I'm not sure if this is
going to work or not, Charlie Brown (publisher of Locus) is claiming 
it is an 82 book, and I don't know who is going to be believed.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982 23:50-PST
Subject: Early reading and book stores
From: gail at RAND-UNIX

I remember quite clearly the first science fiction books I read.  They
were a series by Ruthven Todd (?).  Some of the books were:  Space
Cat, Space Cat Goes to Mars, Space Cat Goes to Venus, Space Cat Has
Kittens...  As you can tell by the titles, they were aimed at an age
group somewhat younger than the Mushroom Planet books (which I don't
remember ever reading).  Anyone remember these books?  I can't even
find them in the local library anymore.

On a different note, I've been seeing mention of several bookstores 
here lately and it brings to mind something I've been meaning to bring
up for a long time.  When I'm in a strange city, one of my favorite 
things to do is find a good book store to browse.  I would like to get
a list of people's favorite stores around the country (or world?).  
Got any you'd like to recommend?  If you send directly to me, I'll
make a list and pass it on.  (Please mention "bookstore" in the
subject line.)  What I'd like are the name, location (address if you
have it handy), whether or not it is just science fiction, whether or
not it has used books, and any general comments you want to make.

I'll start off with a few of my own favorites:
        Mithras Bookstore in La Jolla, Calif. (with Unicorn Theater)
                General bookstore with a small used section and a
                really pleasant atmosphere for browsing (at least
                this was true 10-15 years ago when I lived there)
        Change of Hobbit in Santa Monica, Calif. (Lincoln near Pico)
                Need I say more?  One of the best science fiction,etc.
                bookstores around.  Small used section.
        Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks, Calif.
		(Ventura near Woodman)
                Somewhat smaller than CoH, but equally pleasant.  And
                I've found books there not available at CoH. (sold
		out?)
        Wilshire Books in West Los Angeles, Calif.
		(Wilshire near Stanford)
                My favorite used book store around here.  Some
                s.f. but mostly general.
        (name unknown) in Cambridge, Mass.
		(Over a Chinese restaurant near Harvard Square)
		A fairly small bookstore which is devoted to
                s.f. (Actually, they claim to be the biggest around
		(east coast?), so maybe I'm spoiled.)
        Mr. Dickens' Book Store in Sacramento, Calif.
		(5311 Elkhorn Blvd.)
                A good general book store, but at least the day I was
                there, the guy running it was really into s.f.
        Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon (11th and Burnside)
                One of the larest bookstores I've seen. One (very long)
                wall devoted to s.f.  They have books on just about
                anything.  Used books shelved in among new ones.
        MITSFS library at MIT.
                Not a store, but great for browsing.

Anyway, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for.  Thanks for any 
contributions.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 0331-EST
From: Greg Skinner <Gds at MIT-XX>
Subject: Why BG failed

        Battlestar Galactica (BG), like so many other SF TV series 
flopped for some similar reasons.  Here are a few.

1) After the episode in which the transmission from Earth was picked
up, they could have started up another season.  (Actually they did --
it was called Galactica 1980) However, considering their original
distance from Earth (Caprica was about 12 light-years away, judging
from the Capricorn constelliation which is also about 12 light years
away, I think), they would have had to come up with about twelve years
in space of episodes.  Perhaps they could have crunched it down to
three or four years of episodes, but they would have run out of ways
for the Galactans to fight Cylons or find markers to their Earth 
journey.

2) They were showing the episodes weekly.  Now, a similar problem 
occurred in the series Wonder Woman (the original and the new) with 
Lynda Carter.  Interest was dying in the show, because they were using
up too many of their good episodes.  What they did was time-share (!!)
Wonder Woman with some other series that aired the same time and night
that Wonder Woman did.  This gave the producers a chance to spring 
surprises on viewers (like the Andros -- alien from outer space 
episode) and kept up interest in the show.  The producers of Galactica
could have done the same, but alack and alas, they didn't.

3) I saw both Apollo and Starbuck on other series (namely the Love
Boat) not too long after BG ended, inclining me to believe that they
had other acting interests other than SF.

4) What with SW in '77, and Close Encounters hot on its heels, and
Superman I on its way in early '79, I think the American television
audience had had their fill of SF on the air for a while.

        Still, BG was a GREAT tv series while it lasted.  I think the 
earlier shows were the best, plus the few where they contacted the 
"gods" and "Terrans".  Two of my favorite quotes came from the same 
episode (Greetings from Earth) -- I can't remember them now, but they 
both had to do with the controversy over the opening of the Terrans' 
life support units (one was by Apollo, the other by Adama).

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 0414-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Re: ST faves

        As was "Assignment: Earth", which was supposed to be a Star
Trek spinnoff, about an advanced alien (of Terran ancestry) and a
scatterbrained but brilliant secretary who were supposed to help Earth
out during it's critical periods.

        How many of you realized that?

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 0409-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: ST faves

        Thanks for reminding me.  Don't know how I forgot it, but,
yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" rates in my top picks.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 0406-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: ST: More planet skewage

        Yesterday, I saw the first episode of the third season of Star
Trek.  One of my least favorites, "Spock's Brain".  It did have it's
moments, but...

        First, the planet skewage.  Throughout the first half of the
episode, they make it clear that they are going to the sixth planet of
the system.  Yet, later on, Sulu, who has the conn, records in the
log, "We are currently in orbit around Sigma Draconis XII..."

        Why would they be in orbit around the 7th planet, when the 6th
was clearly the target???

        Scotty states that the underground power source is powerful
enough to move the planet out of orbit.  Either it's a nuclear pile a
hundred miles across, or, advanced ion power.

        OK, fine.  If the ancients had that type of power at their
command, they could either A) move the planet into a more temporate
orbit to alleviate the ice age, or, B) used the energy to expunge the
empending ice age.

        If they had that power at their command, why would they exile
the males to the colder upper levels?  Why not keep both sexes below?

        And, if they had that technology, why did they require a
humanoid brain as a controller?  Why not a computer system, that could
have surely outlasted the 10K span of the/a controller?

        The episode did have good acting: the scenes between Shatner
and Kelley were among the best.  But, the rest of the episode
suffered.

        I'll have to list this as one of my five least favorites.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 21:41:24 EST  (Tue)
From: Tim Maroney <tim.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Worst Star Trek episode

The one about the Yangs and the Komms was indeed one of the worst; its
dumbest part was when Kirk recognized the (gasp!) Pledge of Allegiance
and charmed everyone by reciting it. This was explained by "parallel 
evolution". Right. Another really pathetic one was where Kirk, Spock, 
Abraham Lincoln, and Sarek of Vulcan fight Genghis Khan and crew in a
purposeless and unexplained "battle of good vs. evil" which is of
course won by Kirk and Spock's combat skills. The absolute worst has 
to be the first movie, of course, which I assume everyone is familiar 
with. All three of these were written by Gene Roddenberry, the show's 
producer. Strangely enough, after he left the show (third season), all
the episodes were like that, including such beauties as the season
opener, "Spock's Brain"; the one about the space hippies with lettuce
ears; and "Day of the Dove", in which the Klingons, who had been
previously established to treat women as subhuman pleasure machines,
have female officers. (I get the feeling this was a misplaced attempt
to be non-sexist.) This may have more to do with the fact that Dorothy
Fontana, the story editor, left, since I doubt Roddenberry knows sf
from his right nostril.

"City on the Edge of Forever" was definiteley the best; who knows what
the other Star Trek episode to win a Hugo was?

                                                Tim Maroney
                                                tim.unc@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 1916-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Star Trek Plotlines

        One nice thing about being sick is being able to watch Star
Trek in the afternoon.  Today I saw a double header with amazingly
similar plot lines:  "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the
Sky", and "Paradise Syndrome".

        In both cases, Kirk and company discover civilizations that
stem from ancient origins, both faced with eminent extinction due to
cosmic calamities.  Both civilizations are being watched over by
mechanical caretakers who have malfunctioned, and the knowledge to
effect repairs had been lost.

        In one case, Kirk falls in love and marries the Chief's
daughter, in the other, McCoy marries the high priestess.

        In the end, the lost knowledge is regained, and Spock
reactivates.

        It is interesting that the Third Season produced two episodes
that were so similar.  While neither of the episodes were my
favorites, they were by far not the ones I dislike the most.

        Maybe that was a symptom of dry-rot: lack of creativity.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 16:27:30-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!honton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: The Other

  Concerening the "other", my favorite is Darth Vader himself.  He
really isn't that bad of guy.  Consider: In Star Wars IV "A New Hope",
he prevents Princess Leia from being executed.  He makes a martyr out
of Obi Wan, (elevating him to a higher plane.)  He doesn't even stop
the rebels from destroying the Death Star.

  Other considerations would be to take into account that he may be
able to fight the empire from within and this bad guy image is a
disguise. (If Darth really did hunt down all the Jedi, he did a pretty
poor job) He may also be won back to the good side of the force. (When
Yoda talks of another hope, doeas he make it seem like a new person,
or maybe one who will change sides?)

  Another thing, remember that the Jedi fought together in the clone
wars?  Perhaps Darth really is the clone of Luke's father.

  My final thought, If Darth does not go through some sort of change,
why is there a partial "unveiling" in the Empire Strikes Back?

                                Just trying out some thoughts,
                                        chas
(..!decvax!cwruecmp!honton)

------------------------------

Date: 1 December 1982 11:21-EST
From: Christopher C. Stacy <CStacy at MIT-MC>

Lucas claims consistantly that the "other" is a character who has not 
been in the SW movies we have seen.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 13:47:20 EST (Wednesday)
From: Winston Edmond <edmond at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Yoda

   Reply to krm at Ucb-C70

   Belief in "the Force" and training in its use has often been
referred to as an old religion.  Luke was sent to Yoda to learn the
ways of the force as a part of learning to become a Jedi knight, but
probably there are other parts to becoming a Jedi.  We are told that
Yoda is a Jedi Master, but he doesn't seem to have ever been a Jedi
knight.  If the Jedi are a religious order similar to some in the
middle ages, Yoda is simply a religious authority/instructor and the
knights are a military arm of the religion.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 1637-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Sharra

        Somehow I doubt that even Luke, Leia and Boba Fet could
control Sharra, although I'd bet that Vader would like to try.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 1814-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: The Other, etc.

        The image of the Emperor was ideed Alec Guiness' face, 
although the voice belonged to someone else (Cyril Ritchard?), and the
eyes were those of a chimpanzee.  (It seems at the time Sir Guiness's
eyes were suffering some disorder that made them extremely sensitive
to light.  Besides, it added an air of mystery)

        Bobba Fett wanted Solo for the bounty offered by Jabba the
Hut.  Helping Vader was just a stroke of mutual luck.  (Then again,
was it?  The points put forth are very enticing, and cannot be totally
discounted.  There may be much more to Bobba Fett than meets the
eye...)

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 2:27:21-EST (Wed)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL>
Subject: More SF Music...Sort of..

About two years ago I picked up an album with a very cute cover 
showing C3PO on drums, an imperial storm trouper playing sax, and 
Chewbacca on the piano, with Vader at a table in the audience.  The
album is called "EMPIRE JAZZ" and has prog. jazz versions of things
like Vader's March.  Not too bad, I picked it up since it did have a
rather impressive list of performers on it.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 82 21:59:27-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!lime!we13!otuxa!ll1!ihldt!ihnp4!i
From: xn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70
Subject: More Andrews Filk!!



To the New Jersey SF Society and others who have so graciously asked
for more, here are more filk from the musical comedies presented at
Inconjunctions I & II by the Circle of Janus SF Club of Indianapolis,
the players known as the "It's Not Our Fault" players [who have the
motto NO EST NOS CULPA.]

Both plays will eventually be available from Roger Reynolds in FUTURE
FOCUS fanzine, should he ever get it published again.

In the meantime, [adv.] I'll be happy to allow any SF group to present
the plays for the modest remuneration of a roundtrip airticket to see
it...or at least a videotape of the producution.

Filk:

(deleted)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 11:51:37-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Obscure bumper sticker:net.jokes


        Ankh if you like LOGAN'S RUN

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #95
*** EOOH ***
Return-Path: <@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA>
Date: Thursday, December 2, 1982 8:54PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #95
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 3 Dec 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:
    Books - Chalker's Nathan Brazil in Well-World series, Bradley's
              Darkover series, Clarke's vacuum breathing, Cook's
              Dread Empire & StarFishers trilogies & the Swordbearer
              Vinge/Martin's True Names
              Children's SF and fond memories
    T.V.  - Dr. Who, Star Trek favorite and least favorite episodes
    Movies- The Last Unicorn, Star Wards / TESB: the "other",
              Revenge of the Jedi
    Music - Filksinging
    Misc  - Notes from Chicon
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 09:27 EST
Subject: Who the Well is Nathan Brazil?
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.Henr@Parc-maxc>

If Brazil was a normal human, why did he claim to be, among other
things, God or a Markovian (i think i got that right).  The
explanation at the end of the series didn't clear anything up for me.
If Brazil was really human, why did he turn into a turnip every time
he entered the Well control center?  Why did he lie about who/what he
was?  The foofaraw about amnesia seems a bit contrived to me. (But
most of the last two books seems a bit contrived).  Perhaps I will
blow off this weekend and reread the series.

                                                chris

PS Did anyone else notice the unusual sexual tastes of the
last-centaur-on-earth?  He is the only homosexual I can recall in a
Chalker book.

------------------------------

Date: 2 December 1982 1303-EST (Thursday)
From: Bob.Walker at CMU-CS-A
Subject: darkover novels

I've just started reading the Darkover novels, and recall a discussion
this past spring or so on the "correct" order in which to read them
(perhaps chronological?).  Does anyone still have this information
around anywhere, or can you tell me where to find it?

                        - bob

------------------------------

Date:     1 Dec 82 17:17:17 EST  (Wed)
From:     Grumpy <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Sender:   John R Bane <bane.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject:  general emptying of buffer...

1) The first sf books I read were stuff like 'The white mountains' (I
still like that book!), 'A Wrinkle in Time', 'The Forgotten Door',
'Gray Magic' (formerly 'Steel Magic', I think), some of Heinlein's
early books, my favorites being 'The Door into Summer' 'The Puppet
Masters', 'Waldo', and 'Magic, Inc.' Matter of fact, I still think
these books are pretty good. I also read the first half of 'Stranger
in a Strange Land' a few times (just couldn't
 get past the business conference in the middle), and a just a lot of
things, sf and other. (I read a lot of stuff my friends the librarians
suggested, including 'Snowy', a story about a high school cheerleader
discovering how to give blow jobs. I wonder why she suggested that?)

2) Shrinking people - there was a sequel to the story (title and
author forgotten, I'm afraid) about a group of people shrunk to .25
inches as a possible solution to overpopulation (memory of book "We
could build cities under the skin of cows, and mine for food, with
giant (i.e. normal sized) dummies tending the cows ...) Anyway, the
sequel (the original was mentioned 5 or 10 digests ago) is called
'Killer Pine', I think, and is about these miniature people being sent
to Russia to find out about their shrinking project, and I think steal
some documents or something. I read it YEARS ago.

3) To one of the people discussing Star Wars - Princess Leia came from
Aldaran, not Organia. Organians were those super-powerful energy
people from 'Errand of Mercy' of Star Trek.

4) My favorite space suit is John Varley's. ('Persistance of Vision',
etc.)  One lung is replaced with this spacesuit generator. When you go
anywhere not suitable (pun?) for bare living, this machine generates
an energy field that follows the contours of your body and reflects
everything, so you look like a mirror except for spots that follow
your eyes. The system is automatic, and feeds oxygen into your
bloodstream. Doors cam be made of this stuff, so you just walk out and
it's like the door wraps itself around you. Also, Varley seems to be
pretty competent at handling women. Another interesting thing: sex
change operations are so common that it's odd not to have at least one
or two in your life. Unfortunately, the general universe as revealed
in 'The Ophiucci Hotline' is extremely depressing. (There are three
levels of intelligence: 1. the Invaders, who easily kick Man off Earth
2. Porpoises and whales 3. Bees, dogs, humans, etc.) There is
absolutely no hope of regaining Earth.

[Varley's "8-Worlds" universe is my favorite future history. I vastly
prefer it to Niven's or Heinlein's. Varley seems to have a knack for
cleverly revealing information, landscape, characterization, and
technological achievements in a subtle way rather than explaining it
and hitting you over the head with it as so many authors do. The three
books making up this universe are: The Ophiuchi Hotline, The
Persistence of Vision, and The Barbie Murders.  Books of his which are
not quite up to this level are Titan and Wizard, part of a trilogy
probably pressed upon him by his publisher (just a guess).  I believe
it's about time for another "8-Worlds" collection near the release of
his upcoming novels Demon (to complete the above mediocre trilogy) and
the novelization of the short story Air Raid from his Persistence
collection, which I have higher hopes for. -- Stuart]

5) From the Star Trek episode "City on the edge of forever," I think
the quote was more like "I am endeavoring, madam, to construct a
mnemonic circuit with stone knives and bear skins." Edith just said,
"Oh."

6) My favorite episodes include the above, and "A Piece of the
Action", "The Trouble with Tribbles", "Elaan of Troyius" (though I saw
it many times before deciding I liked it), "Assignment Earth" (a pilot
that never made it to its own series), and lots others. As a matter of
fact, there are good portions of almost every show. Even the one with
the Combs and the Yangs (I turn my TV off at the end, it's so
embarrassing) there is the scene where Kirk knows he is going to die.
His shoulders slump, and he just stands there, but when Tracy's phaser
doesn't fire he immediately recovers - better than Kirk hugging a
random Yeoman, anyway. Other worsts: "Spock's Brain" (still
intriguing, the transfer of knowledge for a short while, the use of a
brain to run things as a body), the one with the reused western set
and the shootout (still, the idea of mind over matter ...)  possibly
"Elaan of Troyius" (that hokey love potion) (but I still like it a lot
- giving up her selfishness for a man she cannot help but despise and
a people she absolutely hates because of 'duty and responsibility.'
The idea of the spoiled child learning better has always caught my
interest. Anyway, enough for this message.

7) Extremely sorry this 'note' is so long. I especially apologize to
you folks trying to skip this at 300 bau. The digests arrive so fast
they kinda pile up on me.

                                                  - rene

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 12:00:36-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: crxn on Clarke's vacuum breathing

   The story [containing] "Take a Deep Breath" is "The Other Side of
the Sky", not "Islands in the Sky".

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 2340-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Glenn Cook: Dread Empire &  StarFishers trilogies, and the
Subject: Swordbearer

   While at ChiCon I worked up my nerve and with great trepidation
asked Glenn Cook to autograph a set of the StarFishers trilogy.  (I
wanted to give them as a present to friends of mine who couldn't make
it to ChiCon.)  While he was signing them and some things for other
people, I asked him about the both the Dread Empire trilogy and the
StarFishers trilogy (I also talked to him a for little bit later in
the con).
   When asked how he felt about the StarFishers trilogy, he said that
he wasn't really happy with the books.  What he said was that he had
conceived the trilogy as a two volume story and his publisher had
insisted that he expand it to three books.  As a result, the second
book underwent a massive rewrite and a minor character from the first
book was promoted to be the unifying character across all three books
(anyone care to guess who that character was?  if you don't guess
Mouse, go back and re-read the first book).  I think that this
explains why the last two books didn't have the same feel as the first
one, I guess that he didn't really commit himself to them as fully as
he did to the first book.  And no, he doesn't plan on any other books
in the series.
   What he said about Dread Empire was interesting too.  Cook claims
that his original concept was to follow a small cast of characters
until the last one of them died.  He currently feels that the series
will run to seven books by the time this happens, although this is
subject to change.  From what he said I assume that changes in the
length of the series will come from any of three sources: 1) the
publisher wants it longer or shorter, 2) new characters introduce
themselves and decide to be major characters who must be followed all
the way through to their deaths, and 3) major characters insist on
dying early (he said that this had happened to him with one character
already, but I didn't catch which character it was).
   The only important comment he made about the Swordbearer was that
he didn't expect to be writing a sequel to it.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 2308-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: notes from ChiCon... yes I know it's a bit late.

I heard several interesting things at ChiCon, and I don't recall
having seen them mentioned here.  Please forgive me if this is
redundant.

The two biggest announcements of the con (outside of the Hugos of
course), were:

1) A carbon copy (with handwritten corrections) of the manuscript for
H.  Beam Piper's third fuzzy novel has been found.  The book will be
published this coming year, by Ace I believe.  (They found the copy in
a box of stuff after they FINALLY settles the legal battles
surrounding his estate.)

2) Cordwainer Smith's notebooks have been found.  James Gunn (at least
I think it was Gunn) convinced the university that he works for to
purchase the notebooks.  As of the time of the ChiCon, the notebooks
had not been thoroughly examined and indexed, so they didn't know if
there were any unpublished stories in the collection.  Gunn felt that
there were at least two PhD's worth of analysis to be had from the
whole set of papers.


There were some lesser things that I heard that might be of interest
to this list:

1) Gordon Dickson is now claiming that "The Final Encyclopedia" will
be available next fall (probably November).  He also claims that he
has at long last begun the final book in the series, "Childe".

2) The Panshins have begun their own publishing house called (I
believe) Elephant Books.  I have a flyer on it somewhere and will be
happy to type in the pertinent information from it if anyone is
interested.

3) Glenn Cook claims that there are at least two more Dread Empire
series books to come.  Possibly two more beyond that if he can sell
the publisher on them.  He expects the next volume to come out in two
years (his publisher has the book already but has cut back the
SF/Fantasy line by one title per month, thus possibly pushing the book
back by 1 year.  It was originally scheduled for 1983).


        Steve Z.

p.s. I notice that we are getting a great deal of verbiage/flaming
about TESB and SW lately, some of the people doing this might be
interested in seeing all the verbiage that was generated back during
the original release of TESB.  Moderator Stuart, if you haven't
pointed out where to find this material could you do so now?  If you
have already done so, accept my apologies for asking you to repeat the
work (in the last 1 and 1/2 weeks, I have read all the SF-L generated
from ChiCon through now and I can't keep it all straight as to what
has already been said).

[The Star Wars / TESB discussion is in [SRI-CSL]<SFL>ARCHIVE.V1 at the
end of the file. -- Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 1436-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Children's SF


My science fiction reading began with a book (author's name now
forgotten) called "The Space Ship Under the Apple Tree". All I
remember is that the friendly aliens helped out a farm family by
enclosing their burning barn in vacuum to put out the fire. As with
many other respondents, my next step was juvenile Heinlein.

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982  17:08-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Early reading and book stores

        Date: Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982 23:50-PST
        From: gail at RAND-UNIX
        To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
        Re:   Early reading and book stores

        I remember quite clearly the first
        science fiction books I read.  They
        were a series by Ruthven Todd (?).
        Some of the books were: Space Cat,
        Space Cat Goes to Mars, Space Cat Goes
        to Venus, Space Cat Has Kittens...  As
        you can tell by the titles, they were
        aimed at an age group somewhat younger
        than the Mushroom Planet books (which I
        don't remember ever reading).  Anyone
        remember these books?  I can't even
        find them in the local library anymore.

Fond memories of bygone days... How well I remember these books - they
were my introduction to SF back in elementary school. I can remember
scouring first the school library, then the local public libraries for
these...

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 15:44:54-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: True Names- Dell true to word - (nf)

#R:pur-phy:-59600:uicsl:10700001:000:242 uicsl!wombat Nov 30 13:12:00
1982

Must have been one of the last copies. My husband tried the same thing
and got a form letter saying "thanks for the order, but the book is no
longer in stock."  Maybe someday a copy will make it to a used
bookstore out here in the midwest...

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 13:15:22-PST (Wed)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihuxk!mhauck at Ucb-C70
Subject: Doctor Who?

Does anyone have an update to the Doctor Who list that came out in
Oct.  It was only upto March 30, 1982.  If anyone has the rest of them
please mail them to ixlpc!mhauck Thank you M.J.Hauck

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 21:31:07-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Comment on The Last Unicorn

In a recent "issue" of SF-LOVERS DIGEST there was a review of The Last
Unicorn, in which the reviewer said that some of the dialogue "must
have been taken from the book".  I would hope so, as the "screenplay"
was, I believe, written by Peter S. Beagle himslef!  There is a minute
chance that I'm wrong, but even if I am, I did recognize most of the
dialogue.  The only problem I had (if one could call it a problem) was
that some of the more philosophical parts were left out.  I suppose
this was to make the story fit into two hours.

All in all, the movie was masterfully done.  I heartily recommend it.

                                Clayton Elwell
                                {usenet}!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 12:25:22-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70
Subject: What is a Filk?


I'm new here -- what is a Filk?

Mike Lynch BTL Short Hills, NJ

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 17:42:29-PST (Wed)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70
Subject: more on the Other

For every person who has seen TESB, there is a pet 'significant
happening'.  I have not yet seen mine on the net, which is:  The
carbon freezing chamber, Han is about to go down, when Chewie goes on
a mini-rampage.  Han calms him down, but before that, Boba Fett takes
aim at Chewie with his rifle, ONLY TO HAVE VADER KNOCK THE WEAPON DOWN
(but not out of his hands).

I was almost convinced of the 'clone' significance (either DV or Luke)
until John MacLean at NRL-CSS suggusted 'colon' (rhymes with cologne)
short for colonial.

One of the real Trek dogs was the gunfight at the OK corral episode.

another good one is Shore Leave, by Theodore Sturgeon.

Re: tRotJ trailer, my husband thinks the Vatican is mixed up in it,
because of the scenes of all the people in red robes.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 1328-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Star Trek

        The first ST movie was written by Alan Dean Foster, not
Roddenberry.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 1211-PST
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Best STs


   How about 'The Naked Time', in which the crew is exposed to an
alien organism which releases inhibitions and self-doubts in the
victim.  One crewman attempts suicide, and later dies due to a lack of
will to live, because he thinks man should not be in space; Sulu
chases people through the corridors with a fencing foil; Spock breaks
down and cries.  I haven't seen this for quite a while, but I think it
was one of the better ones.  'The Tholian Web' was pretty good, too,
with some nice scenes with Spock and McCoy, and an interesting, but
SLOW, space combat technique employed by the Tholians.  'Charlie X',
with Robert Walker Jr. ( currently featured in a Certs ad), was not
bad, either.  Most of the other favorites already mentioned go on my
list, too.

   The WASTE ( Worst of Any Star Trek Ever) Award goes to 'The Way to
Eden'.  The only redeeming part of this one is when one hippie-oid
completes his medical exam, and sings:
   "I'm gonna dance and sing and jump for joy,
      I got a clean bill of health from Doctor McCoy!".

Steve (carroll@isif)

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982  17:12-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: ST faves

    Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1982  07:14-EST
    From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   ST faves

    As was "Assignment: Earth", which was
    supposed to be a Star Trek spinnoff,
    about an advanced alien (of Terran
    ancestry) and a scatterbrained but
    brilliant secretary who were supposed to
    help Earth out during it's critical
    periods.

    How many of you realized that?

This was pointed out in "The World of Star Trek", which had a section
describing the writer, director, and guest stars for each episode in
each of the three seasons. It also had a few random notes about
specific episodes (like if they were nominated or won a Hugo award)
and which were significant for other reasons (like "Assignment:
Earth").

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982  17:16-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Worst Star Trek episode

   "City on the Edge of Forever" was definitely the best; who knows
   what the other Star Trek episode to win a Hugo was?

Hmm... Not having my copy of "The World of Star Trek" here, I can't
tell offhand. Some guesses would be "The Doomsday Machine" and the
second pilot script "Where No Man has Gone Before".

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 2 December 1982 23:44-EST
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: Worst Star Trek episode

The biggest problem with the episode about the Yangs and the Komms was
not Kirk recognizing that dribble as the Pledge of Allegiance and
spouting it back to them, it was the fact taht the Yangs recognized
HIS fribble as their sacred words. Their language had changed so
radically that there was really no comparison between the two speeches
except the cadence, and I never really believed that they would be
able to recognize his as the same. 'Mog dowbagh jonnah' Does not at
any time sound like 'I pledge alligienance', and the Yangs accepting
it as their own (mythical) gospel was ludicrous. Remember that Kirk
has always been (among his other sterling qualities), a historical
scholar and chliche-ridden romantic. His rememberance of the
alligiance is not unreasonable in that light (I mean, what else does
he have to do on all those long, cold nights out in the middle of
space... He obviously isn't married, and even if you are in love with
your ship, that isn't necessarily the kind of relationship that keeps
your nights busy...)


chuck (chuqui at mit-mc)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 1506-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Re: ST faves

        I have the OLD version of that book; not so detailed.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 22:07:52 EST  (Tue)
From: Craig Stanfill <craig.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Time schemes in SF.

In a previous journal, someone noted a conflict between the age of a
bottle of brandy and a stardate.  Unfortunately, it is impossible to
judge terran dates by stardates, which vary as a ship moves from one
'local time zone' to another.  Does anyone out there know exactly how
stardates are computed?

I would also like to know what dating schemes have been proposed in
various SF works.  The most obvious is to look at a clock on earth,
and subtract your distance from the clock in light-years from that
clock .  This works if everyone moves slowly, but when relativistic
effects become important it doesn't work.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 82 01:38-EDT (Thu)
From: the Golux <coar.umass@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Revenge of the Hey Judes


First off: Impressive verbiage, Jon (Solomon), but why do you fully
capitalise VADER?

The clone wars: I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but how about this
scenario:

Vader is a clone of Luke's real father, whom Vader subsequently
killed. As a non-emotionally clad figure (i.e., not Luke's actual
biological dad), Vader is fair game for Luke to kill.

Han is Luke's brother, by his defunct biological dad. He is 'the
other,' but no-one knows it but Yoda (savvy little bugger, ain't he?).

Leia... Who knows what she'll do? Women and weather, y'know...  She
has the hoary and time-honoured right (rite?) to change her mind, so
I'm making no sorties in that direction.

How does this sit with folks?

        ken

        coar@umass

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 13:26:24 EST  (Wed)
From: Khron The Elder <rehmi.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke's father and such....

Actually, Darth is a clone of Chewbacca that didn't quite make it.
That might explain why he wears all that apparatus. Then Darth had a
clone of himself made, into whom he tried to transfer himself by some
frobbish use of the Farce. This clone on a clone, however, had his own
personality, and escaped before he was reprogrammed. He had a kid, and
lived happily for a while, till Vader caught up with him, and zapped
him. I don't know if anybody suggested this yet, I've been throwing
the last few weeks of SFL on the ground because of other things. Also,
Obi Wan Kenobi is actually Obi Two Kenobi. They were cloned from each
other and Obi Wan was the Jedi killed when the Empire (big 'E'?) took
over. This is fun, you can do anything once you introduce the idea of
clones.........

                                                -Rehmi-

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 12:54:01 EST  (Wed)
From: Chris Torek <chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>

I vote for Chewbacca as Luke's father.
                                        - Chris
(or: how about, Obi-Wan is Luke's father (or a clone thereof?))
(or: Luke is Luke's father???  Time warp?)
(or: Leia's father & Luke's father are clones, and Luke & Leia are
brother and sister?)

Seriously...  isn't this getting a bit ridiculous?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 00:42:57 EST  (Wed)
From: Liz Allen <liz.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke's father

Could it be that both Obiwan and Darth Vadar are both right (in a
sense) about Luke's father?  It was recently pointed out to me that in
the very beginning, Leia's recorded message to Obiwan says something
about Obiwan helping Leia's father during the \klone/ wars.  Now,
could Darth Vadar be a klone of Luke's father???

                                -Liz

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 0300-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: R2D2 and Toto Too...

        A few years back, in fact just a few months after Star Wars
came out, a brilliant cartoon came out in a fanzine.  it was called,
"R2D2 and Toto too..."

        Here is the summary:  All of the characters of "The Wizard of
OZ" were there, and in the background were their phantom counterparts
from Star Wars.

Dorthy/Princess Leia

Scarecrow/Han Solo

Tin Man/C3P0

Cowardly Lion/Chewbacca

Wicked Witch/Darth Vader (naturally...)

Toto/R2D2

The Wizard of Oz/Obi Wan Kenobi

Flying Monkeys/TIE Fighters

The Witch's Castle/DEATH STAR

Munchkins/Jawas

Witch's Soldiers/Imperial Storm Troopers


        As you can see, the parallels run on and on.  The interesting
point is that there is no real counterpart for Luke or Glinda, unless
you want to equate Glinda with Obi-Wan, instead of the Wizard.

        Luke is an interesting point.  Perhaps he has no counterpart
because he is special, "A New Hope..."

        I wonder if Lucas had this in mind, or if it was just a
delightful coinidence?  David Gerrol admits that he might have
subconsciously plagerized Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" when he
wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles", but Heinlein LOVED it!!!

        In any event, I love the fact the Star Wars is in effect an
updated version of "The Wizard of Oz".  I love both movies.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 18:56:11-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!krm at Ucb-C70
Subject: star wars vs. all in the family

Ok, at last I've got the definative Star Wars solution.

OB*1*, Vader, Luke's father, Luke, Leia's father, the Emporer **AND**
boba fet are all clones from the same batch and the same infantry
squad.

clone, clone on the range....

'chard.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 82 18:02:45-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70
Subject: Star Wars saga: ROTJ - (nf)

#N:hp-pcd:8200005:000:979 hp-pcd!everett Dec 2 14:40:00 1982

From: Everett Kaser
      hplabs!hp-pcd

Last night we went to see The Empire Strikes Back again after 2 1/2
years, and it was preceded by a brief preview of Revenge of the Jedai.
It was primarily just a series of quick scenes of all of the major
characters. What was interesting was that the one for Obi Wan (or
however it's spelled), showed him as a solid corporeal person, not the
'ghost' he's been since the end of Star Wars.

Also, in TESB, the one brief time the Emporer is seen (via Light TV),
talking to Vader, he looks remarkably similar to Yoda. He has a hood
on and the picture is very grainy, so he could easily looked
remarkably like my pet cat, but it was an interesting thought that the
emporer might be of the same race as Yoda. After all, where did Yoda
come from? And where's the rest of his race?  Is he the last remnant
of some of the action in Star Wars 1 thru 3?

                      Never afraid to make my mark,

                                   X

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 15:36 PST
From: TEMPLETON.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #94

I have been reading the discussions on the 3rd episode in the Star
Wars series but have not seen any indication of how I can either see
it myself (has it been released) or read it (is it a book) or
whatever?  Can anyone tell me about it?

JBT

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 14:20:57 EST  (Wed)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: the `other'

 . . . is Steven Speilberg! (ahem.) :-)
                                        -andy

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 1982 1909-PST
From: Bill <Yeager at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: The other...

Hmmm... I think that OBI-WAN KENOBI will come back to life in ROTJ,
and, that he is the "other hope."

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 2 December 1982 23:48-EST
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: The Other, etc.

Another thing about Bobba Fett... If he isn't such an important
character, then why was he the FIRST action figure put out by Kenner
(in front of the Yoda doll, and new dolls for all the other people),
and why is he still being pushed in the Star Wars Action Figure
advertising? What we don't know, the marketing people probably do...

chuck (chuqui at mit-mc)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 2233-PST
Subject: "Won back from the dark side"
From: Dave Dyer       <DDYER@USC-ISIB>


 Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of bibles would
you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe he was "won back"
from genocidal tendancies?  After all, Vader only destroyed one
planet...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  3-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #96
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 3, 1982 9:00PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #96
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Saturday, 4 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 96

Today's Topics:
    SF convention calendar
    Books  - Bradley's Darkover, Chalker's Well-World, Space Cat
    Themes - shrinking, time travel
    Misc   - Bookstores
    Query  - Sharra?
    Radio  - Dr. Demento
    Movies - make one in space, Star Wars / TESB clonage and the
	     Other, Revenge of the Jedi, Star Trek
    T.V.   - Star Trek and Kirk's Omega Glory recitation
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 December 1982 03:55 est
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: SF convention calendar

Do you know the current location of Zellich's sf convention calendar?
If not, please put a query in the digest.
        Paul

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 0031-PST
From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich)
Subject: SF Cons listing updated

OFFICE-3 file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for 
FTP.  OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP,
using any password.

CONS.TXT is currently 941 lines (or 44,017 characters).  Please try to
limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if possible,
as the system is heavily loaded during the day.

Enjoy, Rich

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 1023-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Darkover

        Chronologically, the first book is Darkover Landfall.  I think
the next one is Storm Queen, but am not sure.  I can probably find out
within a few days.  (or send me a list of the titles and I can put
them in order for you.  I just don't remember what they all are, off
hand.)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 12:44:53-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: re darkover

   MZB has said repeatedly that all of the books are independent and
can be read individually (with the possible exception of two pairs).
If you're really interested in tracing Darkovan history you're better
off getting the concordance rather than trying to disentangle the
books.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 1115-EST
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: He Who Shrank

By H. Hesse, appeared in Amazing in 1936.  It has been reprinted in

Healy & McComas, Adventures in Time and Space (Ballantine 1975) 
Asimov, Before the Golden Age (if you have the paperback series, it
        is in volume 3)
                                        joe

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 12:45:38-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: shrinking people

   Just remembered one that it seems nobody else has heard of:
MANALONE by Colin Kapp (English author, I believe he died recently).
The MITSFS has a British edition; I doubt it was ever published in
this country. Not much good as the entire plot keys on this one
character realizing that as a solution to the population problem
people have been shrunk to ca. 2 feet tall but think everything is
normal (the [hero] starts finding artifacts and mistaking them because
of scale problems, e.g. a creamer is believed to be a teapot).
   Kapp has done some good books, including THE WIZARD OF ANHARITTE (a
classic ASTOUNDING SF story that somehow came out in IF in 1972) and
THE SURVIVAL GAME (similar theme). Rated ALP: THE CHAOS WEAPON, a
"sequel" to PATTERNS OF CHAOS (ok).

------------------------------

Date: 3 December 1982 01:04-EST
From: "James Lewis Bean, Jr." <BEAN at MIT-MC>
Subject: Sharra?

I have seen several references to a character named Sharra.  Who is
Sharra?

                                                lewis
                                                bean at mit-mc

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 82 19:48:25 EST  (Thu)
From: Tim Maroney <tim.unc@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Who the Well is Nathan Brazil?

Nathan Brazil lied about being God, or so he later claimed.  It is
rather difficult to understand what "God" would be in the Markovian
universe, anyway; the person who made the Markovians?  As to why
Brazil turned Markovian inside the Well of Souls: I believe that the
console could only be accessed by a Markovian, so the computer
automatically made Brazil capable, assuming tha that was what he came
for.

What I like most about the Well World books is the incredible stream
of creativity, and the relatively coherent way in which these
extremely diverse and unusual elements are combined. I'm more than
willing to admit a few deficiencies in Chalker's style, though; I just
think his imagination makes up for these small flaws.
                                                Tim Maroney
                                                tim.unc@udel-relay
                                                (I'm sure!)

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst
Date: 3-Dec-82 12:56:42 EST
Subject: Space Cat!

If I can credit anything with making me go after a career (as yet only
partially realized) of writing SF, it would have to be Space Cat.  As 
Gail mentioned a few issues back, it was a series of children's books 
written by Ruthven (pronounced "Rivven") Todd.  I know of only four in
the series, and they are good beyond price, assuming you haven't 
completely lost the feel for how you felt at age 7.  Briefly:

SPACE CAT:  Air force colonel picks up a stray cat on the way to a
secret project called ZQX-1.  ZQX-1 is a rocketship a la destination
Moon, and said colonel is assigned to pilot it.  Colonel cons the air
force into building a space suit for Flyball and fitting a
spring-loaded g-hammock into the ship for him.  Flyball and colonel
reach the Moon in ZQX-1.  Colonel falls down in a cave an d springs a
leak.  Flyball patches leak in colonel's helmet with a sticky
sand-dollar shaped life-form growing in the cave.  Flyball runs into
some baloon creatures which have the interesting ability to float in
mid-vacuum.  (Even I caught that booboo, at age 7) ZQX-1 returns home
safe.  one gets the impression Flyball is the brains of the outfit.  
SPACE CAT VISITS VENUS:  Flyball and Colonel take a refitted ZQX-1 to
Venus, where they encounter telepathic moss, ammonia storms, and (best
of all) a creature called a wyrgmbumia which resembles a bunch of 
bananas with sagebrush growing on top, very evil and a dastardly 
streetfighter.  Colonel gets half-swallowed by the wyrgmbumnia before 
Flyball dispatches it.

SPACE CAT MEETS MARS:  On the way back from Venus colonel finds the
ZQX-1 has blue venus sand fused into the rocket tubes.  Since Earth is
on the other side of the sun, they take a long orbit to Mars to clean
the tubes out.  While on Mars they find six-legged talking mice
(interesting problem for Flyball) and a native lady Martian cat named
Moofa.  Once the colonel cleans out the tubs and has some other
adventures, the three of them return to Earth.

SPACE CAT AND THE KITTENS:  Some time later, Earth has built a
hyperdriven spaceship namedd Einstein, and Flyball and Moofa have
produced a pair of kittens, Marty and Tailspin.  Together they go off
to Alpha Centauri with the colonel and another man.  They find a
planet full of miniature dinosaurs.  Flyball and Moofa take a back
seat to the kittens this time.  After a great fight with an 18-inch
tyrannosaurus, they all bundle up and head back.

Dumb, huh?  I suppose.  There were some really well-done drawings in
the books, and Flyball in particular had an ironic grin that I will 
always remember.  I'll gladly pay five bucks for any of these books in
any condition, and ten bucks for any in really good condition.  Were
it not for Flyball, I could well have grown up to be an insurance 
salesman.  THAT is a debt not easily repaid.

--Jeff Dunteman 301 Susquehanna Road Rochester NY 14618
  (duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 2118-EST
From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler)
Subject: Bookstore

Re: gail at RAND-UNIX's book list

The unknown bookstore in Cambridge is the Science Fantasy Bookstore at
18 Eliot Street. It is located in Harvard Square across from the 
Harvard/Brattle MBTA bus stop. According to their add in the phone 
book they are New England's largest selection of SF&F books. They have
a wide selection of both used and new books.

--David

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 21:24:42 EST  (Fri)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Time travel

There are a lot of books concerning time travel, some good and some
not so good. What are some favorites?

Some of my favorite odd ones are:
        Dinosaur Beach (Keith Laumer?)
        The Man who Folded Himself (David Gerrold -my main
                        objection is the fact that it's
                TOTALLY subjective - there is no
                        mention of the outside world. On the
                        other hand, it would be
                        hard to write that story any other way.)
        The Flight of the Horse (Larry Niven)
        Roadmarks (Zelazny, and which may not count...)

Tne I didn't particularly care for was called (I think) "Mammoth" and
was about a house built in the age of the dinosaurs. I'm not really
sure why I didn't like it (I read it a few years ago); something to do
with Not Much Happens.

Anyone care to branch into this subject of discussion?

                                        - rene

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 1147-PST
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER@USC-ECLB>
Subject: some miscellaneous commenta

Comments. Anyway, I have been taking in various discussions going on
in SFLD, and now that I feel that the dust has settled, I shall voice
a few thoughts.

re: Star Trek. The Doomsday Machine and Balance of Terror are indeed
two great episodes. William Windom's performance as Matt Decker in the
latter is a great standout for fanatics of unbalanced people.  This is
an old note, but there was a character named Decker in ST-TMP. In The
City on the Edge of Forever, the potion McCoy injected himself with
was an overdose of Cordrazine, which he brought to the bridge to
administer a VERY SMALL dose to Sulu, who had been hurt while the
Enterprise was being jostled by the "storm," which was actually "waves
of time displacement."  The woman Kirk falls in love with was named
Edith Keeler.  In defense of The Savage Curtain (anybody know why it
was called that? My ignorance is showing), I thought the molten-lava 
creature, Yarnek of Excalbia, was a GREAT alien. Also, we got a chance
to converse with Surak, "father of all we (the Vulcans) hold true."
About Spock's brain, the person (sorry) who was talknig about
confusion between 6th and 7th planets wrote about Sigma Draconis XII
(12): watch when you change numerals. Last note on ST: Yes, I have
read that Assignment: Earth was a pilot.

re: Shrinking. An obscure, C-grade (or worse) movie with a dumb title
was made called "Attack of the Puppet people." It starred John Hoyt as
a slightly deranged scientist who liked to shrink people because he
was lonely (I think). Supposedly loosely based on "Dr.  Cyclops." As
for "The Incredible Shrinking Man" shrinking down to nothing, recall
that the last line of the movie is "To God, there is no zero; I STILL
EXIST."

re: Exp. Dec.  This is the least technical or even apllicable to the
replies on this subject, but in "Moonraker," Drax gets whooshed out
into space at the end. I won't prolong a discussion on this poor 
excuse for a James Bond film (even a film).

re: Star Wars. I, too, lean toward the idea that the "another" in "No,
there is another." is an as yet unknown character; my impressions come
from stuff I have heard and read. Some of you people are really
creative out there, though. I also am leaning toward clone theories,
i.e., the following pairs: Obi-wan/Emperor, and Vader/Luke's Father. I
love how Lucas (or whoever else is responsible) is so vague in things
like this, and also such things as "the son of Skywalker must not
become a Jedi." Thanks heaps for the information. We have minds, so we
may speculate.

I haven't read for pleasure in months. I'm sincerely thinking about
picking up THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS because it has so many
recommendations from people regarding its AI themes. Until I should
ever decide to speak again,

John

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 0128-EST
From: Steven J. Zeve <ZEVE at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dr. Demento in New Jersey

     As of the last I know, Dr. Demento can be heard on WAPP (a new 
NYC station) in the northern areas of New Jersey.  I don't know the 
station frequency exactly, but it's an FM station somewhere around 
103.5.  'Fraid I don't know where Dr. Demento can be found in western 
Massachussetts though.

        Steve Z.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 82 23:43:08-EST (Thu)
From: Steve Platt <platt.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Assorted movies, tv, trash


Referring to "the other" is clearly a typographical error; Yoda has 
quite obviously stating, "...there is the author's hope..."
  Dig it; Lucas walking on-stage over to Vader, "Ok big guy, no more 
special effects for you..."

I think my favorite ST episode is the last one.  You may interpret 
that how you will.

-s

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 2:19:48-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Movies in space, and idea for George Lucas

A recent mention of movies in space brought back to me an old idea
that I have had for some time.  It might be neat if this message got
to Lucasfilms, although I won't be surprised if they have not already
thought of this.

The idea is to make a movie in the space shuttle, a science-fiction
one.  Such a movie would be about the near future exploration of
space.  The special effects would be great and you could get real
weightless shots.

The nice thing is that this is quite possible.  A director like George
Lucas or Steven Spielberg could afford to rent one shuttle flight,
although it would make the movie perhaps the most expensive ever made.
They could recover the cost because:
        a) The film would become an instant classic, as the first
movie
        made in space.  People would see it even if it were crap.
        b) A name like Lucas making an SF movie would cause millions
to see
        it even if it weren't in the shuttle.

The interesting point is that you could probably simulate the
weightless conditions with special effects right on earth for less
then the rental of a shuttle.  The reasons to take the shuttle are
        a) You can advertise that you shot the film in space and
        b) The director gets to go up on the shot, probably to act as
        cameraman as well, and thus realizes the dream of many an SF
        person, which is to go into space.

Find actors that can stand the free-fall and I'd be glad to crew such
a mission.  NASA might also approve because of their plan of taking
artists into space to bring back the message of space to the people.
What better way to do it than a Lucasfilms movie?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 09:02 EST
Subject: Send in the Clones
From: Chris Heiny <Heiny.henr@Parc-maxc>

In the book versions of both SW & TESB the wars in which Obiwan, 
Darth, papa Skywalker, etc. are involved are referred to as the 
>Clone< wars, not the >Colon< wars.

Princess Leia's last name is Organa, which would probably account for 
all the Organia confusion.

                                        chris

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 1034-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Clones

        In light of all this flaming about clones, I feel I should
send in a story I heard recently.


        There was this very famous lecturer, who, being so famous, was
very much in demand.  As a result, he was making megabucks.  However,
he was so booked up, that soon he had no time for anything else other
than lecturing.  Still, he didn't want to give up any lectures, even
when he nearly suffered a complete physical collapse.  His agent
pointed out to him, at this point, that he couldn't go on like that,
and suggested he have a clone of himself made.  It would solve all his
problems:  he could make as much money as before, and only do half the
work.  So the lecturer went to MIT and had them make a clone of him.
Well, this worked out fine at first, but after a few weeks something
began to go wrong.  The clone started telling off color stories and
became increasingly obscene.  The lecturer tried to stop this, and for
awhile he seemed to be succeeding, when, one evening, he got a call
from Harvard telling him that they would never allow him to speak
there again, after the foul and abusive language he used.  The
lecturer rushed to Boston and went up to his clone's hotel room, on
the 15th floor of the Hyatt.  He started speaking to the clone out on
the balcony.  Their conservation soon grew violent, and he hit the
clone, knocking him off the balcony, to his death 15 stories below.
Of course the police tried to arrest him, but they couldn't find a
charge that would stick.  Murder was out since the clone was him and
he was still alive.  Suicide was also out for the same reason.  But a
smart DA found a charge that would stick:  making an obscene clone
fall.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982  9:53:03 CST (Friday)
From: Jeff Bowles <jab at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: ROTJ


I especially enjoyed the material from the person at Rand-Relay who
said something about the Emperor's daughter being the new hope.  
Ridiculous as it sounds, I have heard it before from someone who
claimed to have "the inside story". (This person also claimed that
Boba Fett is a good guy, and was taking Han away to revive him.)

I don't know WHO the "other" is. I suppose that it's somebody we 
haven't met, and suspect that it's Luke's son. Probably the Vader/Luke
conflict will end (with Vader's timely demise) in ROTJ. We can only 
hope...


How does Lucasas plan to hide the advances in technology from the
movie- goers ? It would be a real problem if the first movie (the one
which has Obi-wan and Darth and Luke's Father and Leia's father and
the clones) has NEAT NEW weapons that outclass things in Star Wars,
which happens about 30 years later.

        Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 3 December 1982 21:27-EST
From: Charles F. Von Rospach <CHUQUI at MIT-MC>
Subject: The other...

At Octocon, they did a slide show on ROTJ. It was stated specifically 
that Obi does NOT return. There was one slide in which he appeared,
and they were very careful to say that he would be adding the
'ghosting' affect to him in the final print. It was about the only
specific thing they said at the showing, so I doubt obi-wan will
return.

It isn't 'klone' wars, or 'clone' wars, but colon wars. And it isn't 
colon for colonial. Someone stole the Emporer's Milk of Magnesia, and 
Vader (not Vadar or VADER) is his personal physician.

chuck (chuqui at mit-mc)

HAven't we pushed the cloning about as far is it will go? From the
previous movies, I think it is rather safe to say that the answers
will much much simpler than the tri-level
cloning/father/mother/sister/wookie mixtures that have been showing
up...

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982  1:51:22 EST (Friday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: T'other

I think the other hope is Paul Muad D'ib, who will come riding a 
sand-worm out of the deserts of Tatooine, leading a pack of Fremen to
take over the galaxy, replacing Zen with Islam as the dominant
philosophy in the Star Wars mythology.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 82 8:34:06-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!microsof!fluke!vax1.witters at Ucb-C70
Subject: Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back,  Radio Series

I received the following notice in the mail from the local public
radio station:

        The STAR WARS saga continues on public radio!  Beginning
Valentine's day 1983, listeners will thrill to the roar of terrifying
ice beasts, the crash and fire of lightsaber duels -- and the quiet
wisdom of wizened old Jedi master Yoda -- when National Public Radio
presents an all new, exclusive 10-part radio series based on the
record-breaking film sequel.  The series stars Mark Hamill as Luke
Skywalker, Anthony Daniels as See Threepio, and Billy Dee Williams as
Lando Calrissian.  Academy Award winning music and sound effects add
to the excitement!  Produced by National Public Radio in association
with KUSC-FM Los Angeles, and with the cooperation of Lucasfilm Ltd.

I received this from KUOW, Seattle, Washington.  I suspect the series
will also be broadcast by KPLU, Tacoma Washington.  Perhaps the radio
series will give some more clues as to who "The Other" is.  For those
who don't know, Valentine's day falls on Monday, February 14, 1983.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 0221-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Re: The Other, etc.

        On the same hand, did you note that the term DEATH STAR was 
not used in the first movie?

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 3-Dec-82 2:21PM-EST (Fri)
From: David Miller <Miller at YALE>
Subject: RotJ the Other etc...


Allright, I wanted to keep it a secret, but I can't stand seeing 
anymore of this mindless speculation.

THINK!  The Other is supposed to appear at the end of the next movie,
then s/he will not be seen again until episode VII.  Episode VII is
supposed to take place a while after RotJ, and will certainly not be
filmed less than ten years afterwards.  So you want a character that
can be played by one actor in the next film, and a different one years
from now.  In the series this could be done by having it be another
masked figure, but that would have to be a totally new character, and
I don't think Lucas is going to introduce anybody out of the blue.
Perhaps if it was a child in RotJ then s/he could be all grown in the
later films?  Yah that sounds pretty good, but where would a child
come from in this series...  maybe that shot of Leia immediately after
the discussion of Ben and Yoda about the other did mean something!  
Maybe Leia will have a child by ?  [pick one:  Luke, Han]

Sorry the correct answer is Vader.  Vader will have another son by
Leia.

What How???

Well remember that scene on Bespin where Han is thrown in to the cage
with Chewie, and says "I feel Terrible" well a minute later Leia is
thrown in.  Her makeup is smeared for the first time ever, she has
changed clothes, she is very depressed, but seemingly unhurt, yet says
in anguish "Why are they doing this?"  Han on the other hand, is in
terrible pain, is wearing his old clothes, and also depressed.  Leia's
torture seems reasonably obvious though not explicitly stated for
reasons of the movie's rating.

****Spoiler****

The final scene of RotJ is Leia and Han being chased by stormtroopers,
they come across a wandering Ricardo Montalban and his traveling zoo
of primitive primates.  Leia gives Ricardo the baby, the couple runs
on and eventually get gunned down.  Ricardo hides the baby in the
chimpanzee cage, where it utters the word "mama".

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1982 10:44:52 EST (Friday)
From: Bernie Cosell <cosell at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Omega Glory Recitation

I thought that the document was the Constitution ("We the people...")
and not the Pledge of Allegiance ("I pledge allegiance to the
flag...")

    /Bernie

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 14:10:54 EST  (Fri)
From: Grumpy <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: st: episodes and movie


Concerning the episode 'Miri'; the show started off with them running
around and wondering why in the hell there was a copy of Earth way out
here in an unexplored sector of the galaxy?  ("It's the same mass, the
same proportion of water to land, the same atmosphere composition,
even the continents are EXACTLY the same as Earth!") They even
mentioned that there had never been a colony out here, or anything,
yet they used an Earth-style SOS signal. Unfortunately, after the
first 15 min, all that wondering about the peculiar situation is lost
in the scurry for a cure to the dreaded 'grups' disease, and is never
picked up again.  Seemed to me that SOMEONE had a solution in mind,
but they ran out of time or money, or inspiration. Of course, this is
far from the only inconsistency in Star Trek; shall we make a list?  
(a good one is: why didn't they use the shuttle when the transporter
was broken? In many episodes this was the logical solution, but was
never thought of, e.g. in the episode "The Enemy Within" (or something
like that) where Kirk is split into his good and bad halves, and they
try to fix him before the people on the planet freeze to death.

On the first ST movie: it did have it's good points, one of them being
Spock's transformation. (If you get Starlog, you know all about this.)
He learned something about himself, and was a better man for it. I
think the movie was really his story, only it was a minor part of the
special effects and the rest of the 'plot'.  Of course, being so
changed he HAD to die in the next movie.  (Anyone familiar with the
Heroic tradition?) (just like Boromir and Frodo and other, more
traditional heros, whom I can't remember)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  4-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #97
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, December 4, 1982 10:46PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #97
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 5 Dec 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:
    Books  - juvenile SF
    Themes - shrinking
    Query  - decompression
    Radio  - Dr. Demento, A Canticle for Leibowitz
    T.V.   - Star Trek
    Movies - Star Wars / TESB the Other, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1982 21:48:11-EST
From: David-J-Aronson-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A
Subject: shrinking and kids sf


                Re both shrinking AND kid's sf books:

        One of the books I have not seen mentioned, but which fits
into both these categories is "Fantastic Voyage", by Asimov.  As I
recall (though I'm not quite sure; I read it in elementary school), it
was about some bunch of people shrunk by some corporation and put into
a tiny sub-like contraption to remove a blood-clot from the brain of
some important person in the corporation.

        However, one of the people shrunk was actually working for
"the other side" (some other corporation), and tried to kill the
others.  A good kid's sf book, maybe even ok later if bored...


                        Dave Aronson
                        dja@cmu-ee-ampere

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1982 0628-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Dr. Demento

        Does anyone have any information on when the good Dr.  appears
on radio here in Northern California?  I can't seem to find him
anywhere, and I need a Spike Jones fix with a Tom Lehrer chaser.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1982 1159-PST
Subject: Decompression and Canticle for Leibowitz
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)

To second GMeredith's pointer, there has been an extensive discussion
going on for well over a week now on the SPACE mailing list about
minimal spacesuits, the effects of decompression, and related topics.
I recommend SPACE V3 #60 especially; there is a long and detailed
submission from David Smith on the effects of decompression and the
timeframes involved.  You can get back issues and/or be added to the
mailing list by messaging "Space-Request at MIT-MC".  I think highly
of this list, and recommend it to anyone interested in space topics; I
would think that this would include anyone who reads SF-Lovers.
However, I note that the people here who I distribute SFL to are not
nearly as interested in SPACE.  This may be evidence of the classical 
fantasy vs. hard SF dichotomy...

On to something completely different...  I have heard three episodes
so far of "A Canticle for Leibowitz" and recommend it.  [By the way,
the name is pronounced "leeb-oh-wits", and I am convinced that, if
pronounced that way, it should be spelled "Liebowitz" -- "ie" instead
of "ei".  However, both earlier submissions here and the program guide
from the NPR station carrying it locally spell it "ei", so I'll stick
with that.  Anybody have the book handy to check?  I gave my copy away
years ago when I passed my SF collection on.]

Anyway, it has been quite elegantly done, with good voices for the
narration and characters.  The music is provided by a college group
who do excellent liturgical chants.  It has moved quite slowly during
these first three episodes, which is fine with me
-- there has been time to evoke the sense of the surroundings and the
mood has been well established.  Each episode has begun with a degree
of explication, so you will not be lost if you start listening after
some have been aired.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 82 09:40-EST (Wed)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-coins@UDel-Relay>
Subject: re: pressureless space suits

I started up this discussion in SPACE digest about 2 weeks ago. It has
been going strong since then. The definitive answer should be in the
latest issue (written by chip weems). Briefly, the answer is: no, for
extended EVA's it is not practical nor safe.

There are several SF stories that use pressureless space suits (or
just the skin as a suit) High Justice: by Jerry Pournelle, Dreamtime:
??  2001: Arthur Clarke.

                                - Steve Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1982 1956-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Explosive Decompression and other appetizing things...

        If you want a better example of what a nasty explosive 
decompression MIGHT look like, pick up the March 1983 (# 162) of Green
Lantern.  It should be available at your favorite comic store now.

        Also in the DC universe, Katar Hol, a member of the elite Hawk
Patrol of the planet Thanagar (which orbits Polaris) has had his body
specially treated to be immune to the cold and lack of atsmosphere for
a period of several minutes.

        This brings up another point:  in the previous debate over
shrinking, it became obvious that many of you are also into comics.
Do you think that there is sufficient interest to generate a comic
lovers digest?

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1982 1730-PST
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER at USC-ECLB>
Subject: coming to you again....

So soon? A few quick notes:

Stardates: I have seen current dates (e.g., December 30, 1980) shown
as stardates in things like tech manuals published for fans by either
Bantam or Ballantine. The format is yymm.dd, I believe. The two digits
used of the year, are of course, the last two. Don't ask me what one
does when referring to another century.

Wizard of Oz: I have heard of other comparisons to WOZ of such movies
as TRON.  Draw your own parallels as you please.

Death Star: I believe it WAS mentioned in the movie; when the DS is
preparing to destroy Yavin (and the rebel base), a technician
announces "The Death Star has cleared the planet-- The Death Star has
cleared the planet..."  Vader replies, "You may fire when ready."
(added that for effect) "commence primary ignition..."

John

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1982 0638-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Star Trek

        OK, I muffed up.  I meant to type V instead of X, OK?  So sue
me.

        In any event, on the question of the title of "The Savage
Curtain".  Well it was a good title, and I suspect that many folk did
not catch the meaning unless they grew up in a show business family as
did I.

        Going on stage is always going "before the curtain".  In many
cases, the curtain can indeed be a savage one.

        In this case, Kirk, Spock, Lincoln and Surak were forced, 
along with their "evil" counterparts to play out the roles of good and
evil before an alien audience, and the threat of death.  Truly, a
"Savage Curtain".

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 14:10:31-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!gk (Gregg B. Kellogg) at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Other


Another thought on Vader being "The Other."

What other SW character is as effective at removing the high command 
of the Empire Navy?

Personally though, my vote is for Boba Fett


--Gregg--

 ..ucbvax!hpda!gk

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 22:00:33-EST (Fri)
From: Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Others

I'm glad to see my last suggestion got people thinking along
new...er...  angles?  Now I'd like to expand in new directions.
Instead of trying to second-guess who "the other" is, let's make some
noise about who we'd like it to be!  I mean, name some of you favorite
characters from song and legend (etc.) and place them in the right
position.

Imagine ET with a light saber battling the evil Darth. Could even be
symbolic - Darth represents the agency trying to colect on ET's phone
bill.

I could continue, but I'll wait and see what everyone else comes up
with.

Not sane, Gene

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 11:31-EDT (Fri)
From: the Golux <coar.umass@UDel-Relay>
Subject: TESB scenarios again

Well, I just went to TESB again last night, keeping my eyes open for
things which had been mentioned in this list. Here are some of my
observations:

Item:  I was watching very closely all scenes with Boba Fett (sp?),
        and I was unable to spot any instance when he was around and
        Vader 'was not aware of him.'

Item:  Boba Fett did NOT fly off into a pretty sunset with heroic
        music. He flew off in a slightly different direction, to the
        tune of engine roar.

Item:  I didn't see the chap carrying an ice cream freezer, but that's
        probably because I forgot to look.

Item:  In the tableau at the end, with Luke, Leia, and a robot
        watching through the port as Lando and Chewbacca fly off
        in the Falcon, Luke's arm about Leia's shoulder DOES have
        much more of a 'brother-sister' air about it than one of
        a more sultry relationship.

Item:  While I seem to recall Boba Fett being claimed to 'always
        get his man' (sort of a galactic Mountie?), I DIDN'T see
        it said in TESB. This may be an oversight on my part...

Item:  I wasn't able to see much facial resemblance between
        the Emperor and Obi-wan, but the voices ARE somewhat
        similar. I like the idea, already expressed by someone
        in this list, of these two being clones. The OB-1 name
        is a nice touch.

So: I will change my scenario a bit. Vader is still a clone of the
REAL Skywalker (Luke's dad), whom he killed. Han and Luke are
brothers, sons by different (mothers &/| Skywalker clones).  Leia MAY
BE Luke's sister, therefore able to ... ah, 'get involved' with Han
without offending anyone's morals, since Han and Luke have different
mothers. (I won't touch the genetic problems possible.)

A possible ending: Han and Leia as rulers of the galaxy, by 
acclamation, with Luke as a sort of 'heir apparent,' or possibly
Champion as well. Lando and Chewbacca fit in there somewhere, too.

And Yoda and Obi-wan spend the next five decades arguing over whether
Yoda won their last chess game by default due to Obi-wan's
discorporation.

        ken
        coar@umass

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1982 03:00 est
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Clone wars



From Skef Wholey at CMU-CS-C

 Hey, people!  Why have you all forgotten the CLONE WARS?  I'll bet
 good money that there's at least one clone in the Luke, Darth, Obi
 Wan, and Luke's dad group.  To explain Darth being Luke's daddy: Luke
 could be a clone of Darth, or Darth could be a clone of Luke's real
 dad (whoever he was).

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the obvious cloning
possibility: Darth Vader and Obi-Wan are clones, splitting the duality
of human nature between them. In the climactic moment, Vader and
Obi-Wan are reunited. Hmmm... Seems I recall a Star Trek episode like
that...

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982  03:42-EST
From: "GWA at TOPSB c/o" <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Dr. Who, HHGTTG, Star Wars

Re: Dr. Who

If my information is correct the next Dr. Who season does not begin
broadcast until next month hence the list is still up to date. I do
however have the following information.

Story 1:   'ARC OF INFINITY'
            by Johnny Byrne, Director Ron Jones
            Guest artists: Leonard Sachs as Lord President &
            Colin Baker as Maxil
            Setting:  Amsterdam & Gallifrey

Story 2:    'SNAKEDANCE'
             by Christopher Bailey, Director Fiona Cumming
             Guest artists:  John Carson as Ambril
             Colette O'Neil as Tanha
             Setting:  The planet 'Manussa'

Re: Hitchhikers

For those interested, a very good fan club is

ZZ9 PLURAL Z ALPHA
23 Northbrook Road
Aldershot, Hants GUH 3HE  UK

the membership is a bit expensive (about $10 after conversion)
but if you are interested in any merchandise (like the two albums)
it is WELL worth the money.

Re: Star Wars

1) What if Obi-Wan meant that Darth (the dark essence of Luke's
   father) murdered Mr. Skywalker (the good part of his soul)?

2) Another topic of discussion, what is the meaning of the following
passage?

   Yoda: Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware
         of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side
         of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you
         in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever
         will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as
         it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

   Luke: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

   Yoda: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

   Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

   Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi
         uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

   Luke: But tell me why I can't...

   Yoda: No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today.
         Clear your mind of questions. Mmm. Mmmmmm.

   Luke: There is something not right here. I feel cold, death.

   Yoda: That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A
         domain of evil it is. In you must go.

   Luke: What's in there?

   Yoda: Only what you take with you.

[ Luke begins to strap on his weapons belt]

   Yoda: Your weapons...you will not need them.

[ He takes it anyway. Luke moves into the almost total darkness of the
wet and slimy cave. The youth can barely make out the edge of the
passage. Holding his lit saber before him, he says a lizard crawling
up the side of the cave and a snake wrapped around the branches of the
tree. Luke draws a deep breath, then pushes deeper into the cave.
  The space widens around him, but he feels that rather than sees it.
His sword casts the only light as he peers into the darkness. It is
very quiet here.
  Then a loud hiss! Darth Vader appears across the blackness,
illuminated by his own just-ignighted lasar sword. Immediately, he
charges Luke, saber held high. He is upon the youth in seconds, but
Luke sidesteps perfectly and slashes at Vader with his sword.
  Vader is decapacitated. His helmet-encased head flies from his
shoulders as as his body disappears into the darkness. The metallic
banging of the helmet fills the cave as Vader's head spins and
bounces, smashes on the floor, and finally stops. For an instant it
rests on the floor, then it cracks vertically.  The black helmet and
breath mask fall away to reveal...Luke's head.
  Across the space, the standing Luke gasps at the sight, wide-eyed in
terror.
  The decapitated head fades away, as in a vision.]

[  copywrite Lucasfilm Ltd.  ]

-Gregg

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1982 0619-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: The "Other"

        Ok, for once and for all, let's get it straight:  It
was not "The Other", it was "Another";

OBI-WAN:        "That boy was our last hope..."

YODA:           "No, there is another..."

        But then again, another WHAT?  Another hope, or another
champion?

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 4 December 1982 13:26-EST
From: Christopher C. Stacy <CSTACY at MIT-MC>
Subject: The Other, Darth Vader, and all that...



I think this message, from SFL PM V1#126 (SW Issue 6), pretty well
sums up how much we are likely to figure out about the next SW plot.

------------Begin Forwarded Message------------

Date:  28 May 1980 00:53 edt
From:  JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics
To: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI
Subject: TESB confusion

In the interest of having some fun,here are some more possible ideas
to totally confuse you. multiple choice, check one

1) the emperor is:   []luke  []obiwan  []leia  []r2d2

2) darth vader is:   []luke  []obiwan  []the emperor  []c3p0
                     []yoda  []luke's mother

3) han solo has:     []the force  []frostbite  []a hell of a headache
                     []all of the above  []none of the above
                     []some of the above

4) luke's father is: []dead  []alive and well and living on Tatooine
                     []han solo  []an ex-space shuttle trainee

                            essay question

  explain why Lucas will make gobs of money with very little effort.

------------------------------

Subject: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC> The Other, etc.
Date: 4-Dec-82 11:25-PST
From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3
Subject: The Emperor and Obi-Wan

Also speaking of Obi-Wan, several people have noted that in certain
"Revenge" trailers he appears solid.  This has been clearly stated by
both Lucas and the ILM people who made the RotJ presentation at
WorldCon to be a result of using uncompleted film in the trailers.
They haven't yet introduced the effects that will make the
solid-filmed image appear ghostly.  Lucas and others have stated 
firmly that Obi-Wan is \still/ an ethereal figure in RotJ.

-Rich

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982  14:49-PST
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
Subject: another other

The statements:

  Emperor (to Vader):  "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

			-- and --

    Vader (to luke): "I am your father"

do not match. Either the Emperor or Vader are lying. If you try to
tell me that the Emperor is speaking in the objective for "special
effects", I'm going to sick that line which was sicked on my
possibility on you: "That's just too complicated..."

Dispite what everybody speculates, there is a staggering contradiction
here. Also, whether or not Vader is Luke's father is IRRELEVANT.  To
make this story come out happy (and to keep Luke in the protagonist
role), Luke *has* to defeat the Emperor and end the Empire. Whether or
not he also turns Vader into a "Good witch" from a "Bad witch" is
irrelevant (shades of "Wizard of OZ") to the total plot of the movie,
and I think if we try to look closely into the family situation of the
characters we will get hopelessly lost in an entanglement which has no
business in a SF movie as good as Star Wars.

On the other hand, it *may* be that (here's where I get speculative):
If Vader created the Emperor (in the image of Obi-Wan, with evil
tendencies); then Vader has to either face this or be destroyed.  If
he faces this, he becomes a "good witch", a Jedi, and the Emperor goes
away in a puff of smoke (yeah, too spooky for me too).  I'm betting
that Darth Vader (Dark Father, or Dark Lord is the idiomatic
translation of the entire name) is completely evil and too far gone to
be "saved", thus Luke (son or not) must destroy him and his evil image
(the Emperor) (there that's much simpler, and easier to explain in 2
or 3 hours in a movie).

The Emperor is merely a tool of Evil created by Darth Vader to take
control of the empire. As long as Vader is "subject" to the Emperor's
wishes, people feel sorry for him and accept him "just doing his job".
They try to defeat the Emperor, and leave Darth Vader alone (well, up
until now, that is). Also, Vader himself (who is
human/compassionate/etc - all the "Good traits") has a better time
accepting these "evil orders" as coming from someone outside him.

Yoda sees through this? Most likely. Obi-Wan knows this? Definitely.
Obi-Wan knows the truth about what happened. Obi-Wan saw Vader create
this evil image of himself and through this realized that Vader knew
his most evil weaknesses. Obi-Wan is no match for Vader in a fight in
the Force. Yoda? Yeah, he's a teacher, and too much of a "true jedi"
to go attacking Vader. Also, Vader doesn't know *all*, I'm not
convinced that Vader even knows Yoda exists (that's one of Vader's
weaknesses). I think that is currently Yoda's advantage, and Yoda is
not going to risk that until it is absolutely necessary.

Vader *did* betray and murder Luke's father.  Obi-Wan doesn't lie to
Luke. Lying is an evil trait. If Vader is evil, then it is acceptable
(remember: this is a children's film) for him to Lie. Luke was left at
the end of TESB not knowing which way was up. He was disoriented
(that's typical in the growing up process, everybody can identify with
being disoriented).  Vader wanted to get him that way, because he
could be "turned" if he was willing to believe Vader. The "other hope"
is that Luke will get himself straightened out and will know Vader's
weaknesses before Vader learns more about Luke. Only in this way can a
true battle-of-wits be played out.

It is not surprising (to me) that Obi-Wan doesn't see what Yoda sees,
Obi-Wan sees human obsession as being the worst evil trait we (humans)
have, it is obsession that probably caused Vader to turn dark, but the
truth is that obsession with love is good, and obsession with hate is
evil.  Luke's current obsession is a good, loving one, and Yoda sees
this possibility before Obi-Wan does (remember, Yoda has a more
objective view of humans, not being one.)  Still, Luke has to learn
some things on the field. He must now decide what to do next. His
faith has not failed him, but now his weapon will have to be an
understanding of what is actually going on. He will have to decide
which direction to go in, whether to be a good witch himself or a bad
witch.

He has to be a "witch" (in the classical sense of the word) to defeat
Vader, Jedi do not fight unless actually attacked. Luke would not be
able to even PLAN to fight Vader. Yoda is a true Jedi. Yoda has so
much self control that it would be a violation of his religion to
fight Vader, even to put himself in a position where Vader would
attack him. Then after the quest is satisfied, Luke may decide to
become a Jedi, but that's a totally different situation.

		Speculatively Yours,
				[--JSol--]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  5-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #98
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, December 5, 1982 8:41PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #98
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Dec 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 98

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Martin/Vinge's TRUE NAMES, Ellison's STALKING THE NIGHT-
	      MARE + SHATTERDAY + DEATHBIRD STORIES, Clarke's 2010
    T.V.    - Mazes and Monsters, Star Trek worst episodes
    Movies  - ideas for Lucasfilm, Star Wars / TESB / Revenge of the
	      Jedi's other
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 22:26:21-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!npoiv!eisx!pyuxbb!pyuxdd!pyuxjj!mhuxm!mhuxh!mhuxa!mhuxt!ea
From: gle!mhtsa!allegra!phr at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: True Names

Jim Frenkel (the former editor of the Binary Star series at Dell) said
at a panel at Apricon V (a NYC one-day con held last month) that the 
security leak which allowed you to get copies of Binary Star #5 by
mail-order from Dell has indeed been stopped, and that \\Dell will
reprint 'True Names' in trade paperback form in mid-1983//.  This 
would seem to confirm the rumor that Dell hoarded the remaining copies
to hang onto the pub rights.  The book will probably contain True 
Names all by itself, in a horribly overpriced edition with large type,
lots of blank pages, and so on, like Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

~= I think this action is despicable.  Ace issuing SF in trade paper 
before regular paper was bad enough; Dell has gone one better in the 
eternal struggle for greed.  Hardcovers, at least, have aesthetic 
merits and carry some promise of withstanding the test of time, etc.  
Trade paperbacks are nothing but an excuse for higher retail prices.  
(Exception: publishers like Starblaze can justify it, because they're 
only able to sell a limited number of copies and need to make back
their investment).

Everyone should write letters to Dell deploring what they've done, and
demanding a rack paperback reprint of Binary Star #5 (Nightflyers is a
good story too). =~

PS. Has anyone asked Vernor Vinge what's going on?  Does he show up at
West Coast cons (I'm in New Jersey)?

PPS. Jim Frenkel, who's a very nice person, is now running his own 
publishing house called Bluejaybooks.  I wish him well.

P3S. I've been told that the WSFS constitution was amended at Chicon 
IV to allow works which received inadequate distribution in the year 
they were published to be eligible for Hugo nomination a second time.
Can anyone confirm or comment on this?  ~= Might True Names yet win
the Hugo award that it richly deserves? =~

Note: stuff enclosed as in '~= ... =~' is designated as flame.  See
other net
        traffic for explanation.

--Paul

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 82 13:54-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Ellison

His latest, STALKING THE NIGHTMARE, isn't up to the level of the one 
immediately before it, SHATTERDAY...  perhaps because of the inclusion
of much older material (from the late 50's no less) when Harlan's 
narrative style wasn't quite as refined.  And the rewrites can't gloss
over that fact.  However, many of the personal anecdotes are very 
entertaining (working at Disney, working on The Starlost, working at a
carny, guest of a call-in radio show, dying, etc.) I really enjoy 
Harlan's extractions from his personal life.

A few years ago I happened to pick up a copy of his DEATHBIRD STORIES 
which I now list among my 10 all-time favorite books and which made me
an Ellison aficionado.  That collection is really quite amazing in its
depth and power.  Admittedly, it is a selection of his best work up to
the time but for my money it is *the* best book he's published.

By the way, Ellison is one of the very few authors whose hardcovers I 
purchase.  They are beautifully produced, especially when they have
the Dillon covers like SHATTERDAY or DEATHBIRD STORIES; however, both
are available in paperback for the more budget-conscious.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 82 12:13-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: 2010 review

n567  0431  05 Dec 82
BC-CLARKE-12-05
    A BOOK REVIEW
    By Roland J. Green
    (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service)

    2010: Odyssey Two. By Arthur C. Clarke. Del ReyBallantine Books.
$14.95.

    (Roland J. Green is a science fiction columnist for the Chicago
Sun-Times.)

    Arthur C. Clarke's return to fiction also is a return to the
familiar territory of the classic science fiction film ''2001: A Space
Odyssey.'' It is a thoroughly triumphant return, one of the
outstanding works of Clarke's career.
    The book is a sequel to both the film and the novel based on its
screenplay. In both, an alien artifact, the famous black monolith, is
discovered in the moon crater of Tycho. An expedition goes out, in the
book to Jupiter and in the film to Saturn, seeking further traces of
the aliens. HAL 9000, the super computer controlling the ship
Discovery, goes out of control and kills all but one of the
astronauts. The sole survivor, David Bowman, discovers another
monolith, which turns out to be an interstellar gate left by the
aliens. He passes through it to the world of a distant star, is
transformed by the aliens into a being of pure energy, and as the Star
Child returns to Earth to scout and explore.
    In ''Odyssey Two'' David Bowman plays a secondary role. The
character most on stage is scientist Dr. Heywood Floyd, sent to
Jupiter aboard the Soviet spaceship Alexei Leonev as part of an
expedition seeking to learn what happened to the Discovery, David
Bowman and HAL 9000. In his Star Child form Bowman tours Earth, then
returns to Jupiter to warn the Leonev expedition of the danger the
aliens' plans represent for them. There are other complications, as
well, such as a Chinese expedition that at great cost to itself
discovers life on the Jovian satellite Europa, and the problem of
bringing HAL 9000 back to life and sanity.
    Where there was a conflict between the book and the film, Clarke
has followed the film, and ''Odyssey Two'' is stronger for it. Jupiter
and its satellites appear to be a livelier place than Saturn,
particularly in light of the knowledge gained by the Voyager probes
during the 1970s. Clarke has integrated this new knowledge into the
story in his usual deceptively effortless fashion. He is arguably the
best of modern SF writers at depicting the wonder of the universe, but
his rather austere prose can obscure this for readers unduly
preoccupied with style.
    He also has integrated into the novel all his other customary
themes. He explores the supplanting of human intelligence by
computers, the evolution of intelligence itself beyond the limits of
matter, the problems of space flight and extraterrestrial life, both
sapient and non-sapient.
    Not that ''Odyssey Two'' is a pure novel of ideas, assuming for
the sake of argument that there is such a thing. Clarke's dry wit is
as inimitable as ever. Indeed, the passage of years and the breakdown
of taboos in SF seem to have ripened it, or at least given it new
fields to roam.
    Clarke's characterization calls for a special if brief discussion,
if only because it is so seldom judged by appropriate standards. This
is a novel, not a series of character sketches. It also is a novel
about reasonably rational human beings, scientific and engineering
professionals, on a dangerous mission in a highly artifical
environment. This tends to rule out the exotic sexual proclivities or
politically fashionable vices that would appeal to those with narrow
definitions of ''characterization.''
    An objective reading of ''Odyssey Two'' will find Dr. Floyd an
excellent example of the character primarily serving as a viewpoint,
but also brought admirably to life by the breakup of his marriage. It
will find Dr. Chandra, HAL 9000's creator, a powerful picture of
almost religious dedication.
    Any review can only skim the surface of a book so full of riches
as ''Odyssey Two.'' Indeed, it will take more than one reading to do
justice to a work that has to be ranked second only to ''Rendezvous
with Rama'' among Clarke's novels.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 82 19:08:33-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!honton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Dr. Who

  My sister recently became a Dr. Who fan and wants to know where she 
might get a hold of posters of the characters, etc.

  Please send me any pointers to such items.  Also, Dr. Who fans, can 
you send your favorite plot, trivia, history etc?

                                   thanks,
                                        chas
                                        ( ..decvax!cwruecmp!honton)

------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  2 Dec 1982 09:14-PST
From: urban at rand-unix
Subject: Mazes and Monsters

   About a year ago or more, I briefly reviewed a mainstream novel
entitled "Mazes and Monsters".  This novel purports to deal with the
effects of fantasy role-playing games on a group of bright college
students.  In fact, it's a rather poorly written college-romance
story.  At the time, I said it was the sort of thing that would end up
as a movie for television.

   December 28, on CBS.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 82 21:26:22 EST  (Sat)
From: John R Bane <bane.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: Movies in space, and ideas for Lucasfilms

        I am not 100% sure of this, but I seem to remember that
somebody gave Lucasfilms the use of a Getaway Special slot on the
Shuttle.  I don't know what could be done cinematically with one of
these (they have to fit in a meter-long, half-meter-wide cylinder).

        Does anyone else know anything about this?

                - Bob Bane

P.S.  Lucasfilms has a VAX, supposedly known as the Dagobah system.
        Are they on sf-lovers?

------------------------------

Date: Thu Dec  2 1982 15:16:01 PST
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-UNIX>
Subject: Trek

I'm certainly not a hard-core Trekkie, but it clearly seems to me that
the best episode (by far) was the ORIGINAL PILOT entitled "The Cage".
This is the one hour show (before Willie Shatner was brought in) from 
which "The Menagerie" was later pieced together (along with
inconsistent new filler material).  Many of the lines from "Menagerie"
that don't seem to make much sense (in the "flashback" footage) make
perfect sense when viewed in their original context.  As it turns out,
some footage that would have helped keep everything logical was
stricken when "Menagerie" was edited, since some of the "Cage"
dialogue was considered too "racy" (ha!)  to be used in its original
form.

Rumor has it that only B&W prints of "Cage" are currently extant, even
though the footage from the show that we see in "Menagerie" was in
color.  Certainly the print I've seen is monochrome.

I'll leave it to one of you *real* Trekkies to chronicle the history 
behind "Cage" and the startup of the show on NBC.  It's an interesting
tale.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Sat Dec  4 19:04:35 1982
From: decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg@Berkeley
Subject: The Omega Glory -- The worst Trek?
Reply-to: decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg at Ucb-C70

I'm surprised at the comments on "The Omega Glory."  Yes, it has one 
of those "Lost in Space" endings that you try to hide from people when
you are introducing them to Star Trek.  But this is a fabulous episode
up to the point where Kirk and Tracy are captured by the Yangs.  I 
wouldn't mind seeing it redone, with the first two-thirds untouched 
and a new ending bolted on.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 82 18:27:55-PST (Fri)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihuxf!larry at Ucb-C70
Subject: Support for OB1 == clone

        I just carefully listened to the video tape of episode 4 "A
New Hope".  When Luke askes his uncle about old Ben, his uncle
replies: "I don't think he exists anymore.  He died about the same
time as your father."  What a strange statement when you take it out
of context!  He doesn't THINK he exists --but-- he died the same time
as Luke's father?!!?  Heavy indications of OB-1 being a clone!

        Speaking of clones, why were the Jedi fighting them?  How
'bout this:  the process of cloning produces one good clone and one
bad clone.  (Much like the Star Trek episode where the transporter
splits Kirk into a good and bad person.)  This would back up Vader
being Luke's father
--via the evil clone (call him LFC-2 for Luke's Father Clone 2).
Then, could the "other" be Luke's father's good clone? (LCF-1) Great
Story!  Luke and LCF-1 verses Vader (LCF-2) and the Empiror, who must
be OB-2, the evil Ben!!


                Larry Marek
                 Bell Labs, Naperville

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 82 21:02:29-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!pha at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: The Other

Did it ever occur to any of you out there that "the other" might

be a character not yet introduced?

It's possible!

Nevertheless, I elect either Boba Fett or Luke's Father's good clone.

                                        Paul Anderson
                                        sdcsvax!sdchema!pha

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 82 09:06:05 EST  (Sat)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: cloning around....

By Andrew.umcp-cs@udel-relay and
   Andrew.umcp-cs@udel-relay

(ahem, sorry)
If we're gonna get totally silly:
        It seems to me that Han Solo is substancially (sp)
        older than both Luke and Leia. (leia has allways seemed
        to be a fres young .. to me, and han as seemed to
        be about 35 or so)...anyway, leia is a clone of
        solo (oh, give me a clone, of my own flesh and bone...),
        with one chromosomal change. that would explain
        why she's ignoring luke and going after han.

                                        -andy

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 82 23:05:35 EST  (Sat)
From: Andrew Scott Beals <andrew.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: RotJ the Other etc...

actually, leia got knocked up (to coin a phrase) by chewbacca ("i'd
rather kiss a wookie" "that can be arranged").
                                        sillyness forever!
                                        -andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: 5-Dec-82 14:09:33-PST (Sun)
From: research!sjb@Berkeley
Subject: Star Wars <--> Tolkien

In reply to Jon's (JSol's) comments in ''another other,'' here's 
something to think about (I'm not sure whether or not I'm serious at
this point!):  A SW <--> Tolkien relationship.  The way Jon brings out
the traits of the main characters in TESB, it is very easy to
contemplate the following relationships:

Luke <--> Frodo Vader <--> Sauron The Emperor <--> The Ring Obi-Wan
<--> Gandalf Yoda <--> Elrond

Adam

------------------------------

Date: 5-Dec-82 5:49PM-EST (Sun)
From: Nathaniel Mishkin <Mishkin at YALE>
Subject: Meta-"Other" Discussion

Here's something to think about:  while we-all are sitting here
chewing the electronic fat about the "other", there must be tens (if
not 100s) of people tucked away at Lucasfilm and elsewhere who KNOW
the whole truth.  Perhaps the most expeditious thing to do would be to
beat up one of them.  I mean, sure, they must have signed in blood
saying they wouldn't divulge the story, but when threatened with
bodily harm, most people come around.

        Just kidding,

            -- Nat

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  6-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #99
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, December 6, 1982 10:41PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #99
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Dec 1982       Volume 6 : Issue 99

Today's Topics:
    Misc    - SF media, starting in SF
    Books   - Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, Vinge/Martin's TRUE NAMES
	      Miller's A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ
    Queries - decompression, Sharra
    T.V.    - Dr. Who, Star Trek
    Movies  - SW/TESB
    Music   - space rock
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 30-Nov-1982
Subject: SF in different media

Daniel Spear recently asked for discussion of SF in different media,
and the strengths and weaknesses of each medium.  So here is my two
cents' worth.

I think each medium has a characteristic range of lengths it can
accomodate, for any kind of literature, not just SF.  Broadcast media,
like TV, movies, and radio, must either limit themselves to one or two
hours or serialize.  A printed story, on the other hand, can range
over a much wider variety of lengths (though even they are suffering
from gigantism at the moment, I think).

A one- or two-hour movie reduces to a short story or novella, if you
convert the one to the other.  This is one reason conversions are so
often unsatisfactory.  If you convert a novel to a movie, you are
going to have to leave out some bits.  If you are clumsy about it, you
will leave out important bits; but even if you are clever about it,
you will leave out some bits that any admirer of the novel liked.
Hence he will find fault with the movie, or, at best, have to excuse
the movie.  The various attempts to make a movie out of Lord of the
Rings are good examples of this problem.

If you convert a movie into a novel, you will probably have to pad it
out.  This sometimes works fairly well, but then again sometimes it
doesn't.  The novelizations of Star Wars were middling at best, I
think, and padded. The novelization of The Wrath of Kahn was pretty
good, but only because the author was very good at inventing her
padding and integrating it with the movie script.

I think James Blish had the right idea when he converted several
hour-long Star Trek episodes into anthologies of short stories -- one
short story per episode.  I also think the BBC or Douglas Adams or
whoever had the right idea in turning Hitchhiker's Guide into a
serial.  However, not all novels take well to being serialized, or to
being radically trimmed.  These novels simply cannot be converted
sucessfully to broadcast media.

(Lord of the Rings might do well as a serial movie -- it was
moderately good as a radio serial -- but it would take forever to
produce.  Also, at present there would be a strong temptation to
introduce more flashy visual effects than the story really warrants.)

Some stories cannot be turned into visual media because they deal too
much with non-visual subjects.  To use Lord of the Rings again, it is
very, very hard to come up with human actors that will live up to most
reader's expectations of Elves, who are more or less DEFINED as being
super-humanly beautiful.  Many stories, in many genras, are very
mental and spend lots of time examining the consciousness of the main
characters.  This doesn't turn into film easily. (Echo-chamber voices
to represent thoughts might help, but they are not the fashion at
present.)

Contrariwise, printed media cannot convey the visual impacts of movies
and TV.  That's why the novelizations of SF and fantasy movies
frquently have a sheaf of pictures in the middle.  If a book is to
give you a visual or spatial impression, it must weave its spell
slowly, with descriptive passages and allusions in the dialogue.  This
slow effect is not inferior to the fast one of a movie, but it is
different and the one may not be consistently turned into the other.
(The same limitations apply to radio as well as to books.  Wind-noises
and bird-song and ocean waves are all well and good, but they aren't
the same as seeing the place.)

Finally, books are addressed to an audience of one, while radio,
movies, and TV are addressed to a mass.  A movie, especially, is
addressed to a large number of people sitting together in the dark, at
the same time and place.  TV and radio is addressed to a large number
of people in different places at the same time.  Usually, an author
wants his book to be read by a great number of people, of course, but
not always; many books are written for a limited audience.  And books
are not nearly as limited by constraints of space and time.

The result is that books can practice an elitism which the other media
cannot.  A book can deal with rarefied ideas or feelings at a length
which would leave a mass audience bored and restless, simply because
most of them are not interested in that topic.  This may be why
science fiction so seldom gets into the movies except as space opera.
Space opera has ready visual appeal and precious little intellectual
appeal, while a great deal of science fiction is (or tries to be) a
literature of ideas.  Consider one of James White's Sector General
stories.  It would make a moderately good movie in that you would have
a pair of human lovers (Conway and Murchison, though they are seldom
shown acting tenderly) and an interesting variety of non-humans.  But
the point of these stories is usually a piece of biological deduction
carried out by Conway.  In a movie, this would almost certainly by
shoved into a few odd minutes and be lost on most of the audience,
simply because they were distracted by the sight of Dr. Prilicla (an
insectile empath) or Dr. Thornastor (an elephantine pathologist).

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 12:52:31-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re re "True Names"

   1. "True Names" was not exactly obscure, as it \was/ nominated for
a Hugo in its category. The problem was that its category was
unusually strong this year (although I happen to think that "True
Names" was better than the winner, Anderson's "The Saturn Game", that
may reflect my dislike of tSG's subject).
   2. The rule you describe was indeed passed at Chicon; however,
since it depends on the vote of the WSFS business meeting (which
usually has more important things to deal with, unless it gets packed
as it did this year by fanzine twits) it's not likely to be invoked
very often.
   The rule was passed in response to a stupid squabble between
Denvention and Chicon over SUPERMAN II, which had been released on
other continents (away from most eligible nominators) in the
eligibility year before it appeared in this country. This is what
frequently happens with the WSFS bylaws; somebody sees (or thinks they
see) a problem and tries to do something about it, but by the time a
fix can be ratified and take effect (the rules have been interpreted 
that a concom cannot be constrained by amendments passed after the
concom was awarded the worldcon, which award is generally announced
before the final raitification of anything before the current meeting)
either people have come to their senses or the external problem has
disappeared.

------------------------------

From:	"PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 01-Dec-1982
Subject: Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN

RE:  question about third book in the "Torturer" series

Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is a tetralogy, not a trilogy.  The
four books are:

	The Shadow of the Torturer
	The Claw of the Conciliator
	The Sword of the Lictor
	The Citadel of the Autarch

THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR is currently available in hard cover only.
The first two books are available both in hard cover and in paperback.
Book four is supposed to be out in January.

I won't risk a spoiler by discussing plot details of tSotL.  Suffice
it to say that the literary quality is up to the high standards set by
the first two volumes, and there are plenty of loose ends to be tied
up in book four.

--PSW

[THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR is available in a Timescape paperback. THE
 CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH is only in hardback at the moment, with a
 paperback to come in early 1983. --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 0439-EST
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: Miscellaneous

Several comments:

1) Trade pbs are definately for the birds, except for Starblazes.  Not
so much that they're padded and the like, but that they are actually 
of poorer quality than regular pbs.  Starblaze puts out a
well-designed, aesthetic package.  But even hbs are going downhill
fast.  I'm refusing to buy hbs of Foundation's Edge and 2010 due to
the poor physical quality of the books.  Edge is particularly bad,
with glued binding and non-trimmed pages, it looks like an SF Book
Club selection at 2-3X the price!

2) Anybody else have the probably futile wish that the other hope is
R2-D2?  The way things are going, someone (before this reaches the
net) will suggest that the conciousness of Luke's father was implanted
in R2-D2.  Also, i think Lucas has been quoted that 3P0 and R2 will be
the only characters present in all 9 of the movies (makes sense;
they're about the only two who can be played reasonably over 21 years
of real-time.

3) Totally off-the-wall suggestion; How 'bout SF-L for best fanzine 
Hugo?  Yeah, i know the existence is pseudo-confidential, but if 
someone put together a couple of issues of "The Best of SF-L" and 
stripped off the computer headers, then all N000 of us could join 
Constellation and vote it in.

4) Finally, juvenalia sf (although this topic may have been mined out
back in summer of '81).  Did anyone else read Wyndham's Rebirth at an
early age?  The protagonist goes from about 7 to i'd guess 16-18 and
is a telepathic mutant in a hunted society.  I don't think it was
deliberately a juvenile, although i may be mistaken, but it certainly
struck me when i was 9.

tom galloway

[Do you volunteer to find the "best of SF-L"? It should be a few months
before you've finished wading through the archives! --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 82 19:12:39-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!zeppo!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70
Subject: Starting in SF and other ramblings

In addition to what you first read in the sf genre, think about when
and why you started.  In my case, in either 5th or 6th grade I asked
the librarian if there was anything else I could read besides kiddee
books.  She showed me the 'young adult' section which consisted of 100
version of "Debbie's First Love", and sf.  Luckily I reached the age
for full use of the adult section of the library before I ran out the
sf books.

A crucial early influence was probably all the comics I read before
that. 'Mystery in Space' and 'Metal Men' were around, and the usual
Superman stuff.  Back then, each issue had at least two half-page
fillers on science.

re: Fantastic Voyage, I believe that Asimov did the novelization of
the movie, which is an Irwin Allen bonanza.

re: book stores and such.  Willimantic, Ct, about 20 miles east of
Hartford, and 8 miles south of Storrs, CT. (home of Univ of Conn) has
a lot of sf, and a comix division upstairs.  They used to have a
branch in Storrs called the Little Brother, but I don't know if it's
still there.

Sorry, the name of the place is Zeissing Brothers Book Emporium.

In addition to the SF Book Shop in NY, there's also the Forbidden
Planet, across the street from the Strand Bookstore around 22nd
street.  Check that address before you go.

The Strand has some used sf, but find it for yourself (it takes some 
wandering).

When in London, there's a store in the West End off the main theatre
drag that sells comix and sf books, with a branch around the corner
that sells all kinds of related goodies.  I picked up a Tardis savings
bank there.

more food for thought: George Lucas == George Luke S.  ???

------------------------------

From:	"JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 01-Dec-1982
Subject: Dr. Who

Many thanks to the person who contributed the guide to the Dr. Who
series. I printed off a copy for my wife (an avid Dr. Who fan), and
she was very pleased with it.  But - can anyone explain why she tried
to beat me to death with it ?  All I did was to tell her it was a
"Who's Who"!

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 0905-MST
From: Evelyn Mathey <MATHEY at SANDIA>
Subject: SHARRA

Sharra is a violent, melevolent flame-goddess-force created by MZB in
an early book which has been rewritten in two books published by SFBC
under the title "Heritage of Hastur(sp?)".  Sharra is keyed to a ninth
level matrix and is called from a different space-time dimension by a
matrix circle.  Since 'her' nature is violent 'she' awakens that side
of the humans in contact with 'her'.  If you don't understand this
talk of matrix's etc, I can only recomend that you read some of Marion
Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books.  "The Bloody Sun" was the first
written.  "Darkover Landfall" is indeed the first in the sense of
being set in the earliest time.  I don't have the book here where I
can check, but I believe that it was not written my MZB but by fans,
and that she picked the stories out of many submitted.  She has openly
invited people to "play in my world" i.e. write about Darkover.  The
"Heritage of Hastur" is an excellent book to start with as MZB has
stated the Lew has always been one of her favorite characters and is
most reprsentative of Darkover.  If you are really interested in the
seven domains, the gifts of each family, the order of the books etc,
the Condordance is a good buy.  It was put together by MZB's husband
and some fans who are close friends.  There are also several very
active fan groups.

If you are not into parapsychology you may not care for the Darkover 
series.  If, however, mental powers turn you on and you haven't read 
these, I highly recommend them.  Do look at the covers carfully before
buying.  There are several Darkover books which are short stories 
written by fans.  Some are fairly good and some aren't.  Most contain 
at least one story by MZB, but they are a long way from one of her 
books.  As far as I know MZB has been writing SF just about as long as
any other woman in the field.  She started when SF was very strongly 
male dominated.
-- Evelyn.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 1004-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Pronouncing "Leibowitz"


The reason Leibowitz is pronounced "Leebowits" and not "Lybowits" is
because it is pronounced in >>Yiddish<<, not German. For example, 
actor Ron Leibman ("Leebman"), or (allowing variant spelling) singer 
Bruce Springsteen.

------------------------------

From:	"ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	30-NOV-1982 09:51  
Subj:	explosive decompression.

First there was a difference between the events in 2001 and outlands.
In 2001 you will recall, the pod was pushed up close to airlock.  Thus
although, the airlock was open to space there really was a substantial
amount of pressure for the guy.  You will note he was in a real panic
to get the door closed.  I remember even reading something about this,
that clarke had looked into this and decided it was plausible.  As an
occasional scuba diver I know something about the bio physics.  Divers
must be very careful to expel air as they surface.  If not a bubble
will be forced into their blood, blocking flow to the brain.  In Salt
water the ratio is 31 feet of water to 1 atmosphere of pressure.
Surfacing from 31 feet is the same change as decompression in space.
If you were thrown thru an airlock by a burly guy in a dumb book
saying "resistance is useless" you would have milliseconds to live.
Exposed to a vacum as your lung capilarys would be, they would break
due to the boiling blood in them.  Perhaps the correct phrase would be
"Your lungs will be useless".  Further speculation leads me to believe
that the entire body would rupture everywhere as the fluid in your
body boiled What would be found a few minutes after decompression
would be not unlike an egyptian mummy, totally desicated, strips of
dried flesh hanging on a skeleton.  Finding a vacum chamber at your
friendly local highschool or college science lab, and observing a
beaker of water in it would help you understand.  I just realized this
is really gorey, but then I did not bring it up.
						---Geoff

------------------------------

From:	"ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	6-DEC-1982 00:58  
Subj:	more garbage on decompression

What is this fascination with explosive decompression?  Anyway lets
pop another bubble.  Your lungs cannot hold more than a few pounds of
pressure greater than ambient pressure.  If our hapless astronaut were
breathing ample pressure to survive in his space ship, the resulting
change in pressure would be more than his lungs could contain for even
a few seconds.  The bends would be the least of his problems.  However
the guys blood would fizz as all the disolved gas's in it came out of
solution.  This would be due to the sudden change in pressure.  Same
phenomenon as popping the lid off a soda bottle too fast.  I maintain
that the profound descicating effects of a near perfect vacum would be
the biggest problem for our person.  Barring that he would be done in
by an air embolisim, before the bends.  Lungs would undoubtedly
rupture from the pressure difference.  You could of course blow out
all the air, equalizing the pressure, that of course would not buy you
much time.

While we are on the subject... 60% of all SCUBA diving fatalities are
due to good ol boring drowning.  35% are air embolisim.  2% are the
bends, Loyd Bridges not withstanding.  Air embolisim is the primary
danger in Explosive decompression where the resulting pressure is
ample for survival.  Anyway, as I have stated, if you were dumped into
space you would be freeze dried.  Water stays in its liquid state as a
function of pressure as well as temprature.  It will, in space, turn
to gas.

						---Geoff
------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 20:52:28 EST (Monday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #66

I listen to Doctor Demento on WCOZ in the Boston area, and I noticed
that certain passages of certain songs are "beeped" -- censorship in
action.  Since I know that some of you out there listen to the good
doctor, I thought I'd find out whether the censorship is at the source
(but would Dr. D do such a thing?)  or whether I have to yell at the
local station.  Probably best to respond directly to me (unless this
is really an sf topic).
                            -ben-
                            littauer@bbn-unix

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 0008-EST
From: JHENDLER at BBNA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #96

Folks-
  The quote "We the people..." does nopt come from the pledge of 
allegiance OR from the Constitution.  The quote comes from the 
Declaration of Independence!!
  -Jim

------------------------------

From:	"KERMIT::T_PARMENTER c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	6-DEC-1982 13:56  
Subj:	The Tribble with Troubles

I'm not a trekkie, trekker, or trekkist, but I've watched a few ST's
and it's just not clear to me why there's all this SFL interest in
Trek continuity.  The way I make it out, there is *very little*
continuity in ST other than the characters.  For instance, Jim never
learns not to mess around with alien maidens.

Or consider the following: Klingons look a lot like humans.  It's hard
to spot a Klingon spy.  Tribbles can tell the difference between
Klingons and humans, but all the Tribbles were fired out the port and
into the heart of some sun.
 
Changing subject: The Purple People Eater was written and recorded by
Sheb Wooley, one of the leading lights of Hee-Haw.

[Correction: the tribbles were dumped onto the Klingon space-ship
"where they'll cause no tribble at all." --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 0751-PST
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: ST "The Enemy Within" transporter problem


   The planet below had terrible weather, so the shuttlecraft, being a
better spaceship than airplane, could not be used.  The transporter 
was malfunctioning, making multiple and incorrect copies of beamed 
subjects, so the crewmen on the surface couldn't be delivered from the
elements, and no heaters, etc, could be sent down.  BUT, why didn't 
they send down a bunch of blankets, tents, and such?  Even if they re-
assembled tied in knots, they would still have the physical property
of trapping and storing heat, wouldn't they?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 6 December 1982  00:09-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: coming to you again....

 Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982  20:30-EST
 From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER at USC-ECLB>
 To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
 Re:   coming to you again....

    .
    .
    .

 Death Star: I believe it WAS mentioned in the movie; when the DS is
 preparing to destroy Yavin (and the rebel base), a technician
 announces "The Death Star has cleared the planet-- The Death Star has
 cleared the planet..."  Vader replies, "You may fire when ready."
 (added that for effect) "commence primary ignition..."

Most definitely correct about "The Death Star has..." (I saw SW last
night), but it was Tarkin, not Vader who stated "You may fire when
ready". I believe the term "Death Star" was also used earlier when
stating that "The Death Star will be in range in xx minutes".

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 6 December 1982  00:14-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: TESB scenarios again

    Date: 3 Dec 82 11:31-EDT (Fri)
    From: the Golux <coar.umass at UDel-Relay>
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   TESB scenarios again

    .
    .
    .

    Item:  I wasn't able to see much facial resemblance between
            the Emperor and Obi-wan, but the voices ARE somewhat
            similar. I like the idea, already expressed by someone
            in this list, of these two being clones. The OB-1 name
            is a nice touch.

I saw SW for the n+1th time last night and noticed Tarkin's statement
of Kenobi's name - when talking to Vader aboard the DS ("You, my
friend, are all that is left of their religion"), the pronunciation
was most definitely "Obi '1' Kenobi is here? Surely he must be dead by
now".

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 (Monday) 1849-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: Luke and his struggle against the Dark Side

        If Luke's father was trained by Yoda, then he no doubt
experienced some of the same lessons as Luke did.  What if he went
into the underground cavern, met his hooded dark alter ego?  Who would
emerge if he lost that battle: Darth Vader.

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 1826-CST
Subject: SW:TESB -- cave on Dagobah
From: CS.TEMIN at UTEXAS-20

The message suggesting that the emperor is Vader's creation leads me 
to consider the scene where Luke fights a Vader-image in the cave on
Dagobah.  Suppose that Vader went into that cave during his training, 
and met a similar image, representing his dark side, let's say.  But 
instead of killing it, the image took him over.  So the image is what
we call Vader, and the jedi-trained (weak-willed) Vader is the 
Emperor!

-aaron temin

------------------------------

From:	"HARDY::GLASSER c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	30-NOV-1982 23:48  
Subj:	Space Music Record List

I have been following the "Space Rock" and associated music
commentaries in SFL for the last few weeks, I've looked through my
records and have produced a list of the ones that I recognised as
such, plus a few that I remember but don't have in my collection.
This list includes only record titles and groups, not individual songs
that I remember.

Stomu Yamashtu's Go Live from Paris (Island Records ISLD10)
Tomita             Holst-The Planets  (RCA Records ARL1-1919)
Tangerine Dream    Stratosfear (Virgin International  VI2068)
Mike Oldfield      Airborn (Virgin Records  VA13143)
Walter Carlos      By Request (Columbia M32088)
Jeff Wayne         The War of the Worlds (Columbia  PC235290)
Moody Blues        To Our Childrens Childrens Children
		   (Threshold/London THS1)
Moody Blues        On the Threshold of a Dream (Deram DES18025)
Soft Machine       Soft Machine (Probe CPLP4500)
King Crimson       In the court of the Crimson King (Atlantic SD19155)
Hawkwind           Hawkwind (United Artists UAS5519)
Hawkwind           Warrior On The Edge Of Time (Atco SD36115)
Hawkwind           In Search Of Space (United Artists UAS5567)
Hawkwind           Levetation (Bronz Records BRON530) (Import-England)
Various            Wowie Zowie (Decca SPA34   (Import-England))
Cluster            Curiosum (Sky SKY063  (Import-Germany))
Pink Floyd         Meddle  (Harvest SMAS832)
Pink Floyd         Relics  (Harvest SW759)
Pink Floyd         Wish You Were Here (Columbia PC33453)
Pink Floyd         A Nice Pair (Harvest SABB11257)
Kenny Young        Last Stage for Silver World (Warner Bros. BS2676)
Laurie Anderson    Big Science  (Warner Bros. BSK3674)
The Doors          The Soft Parade (Elektra EKS75005)
David Bowie        Starting Point (London LC50007)
Magma              Attahk (Tomato TOM7021)
Flash and the Pan  Lights in the Night (Epic JE36432)
Deep Purple        Book of the Taliesyn (Tetragrammaton T107)
Landscape          Manhattan Boogie-woogie (RCA NFL1-8028)
Landscape          From The Tea Rooms of Mars to the Hell Holes of
		   Uranus
Gong               Flying Teapot (Charly CR30202 (Import-England))
Gong               Angels Egg (Virgin V2007 (Import-England))
Planet Gong        Flying Anarchy (Oxford OX/3197 (Import-Italy))
Bo Hansson         Lord of the Rings (PVC PVC7907)
Aphrodite's Child  666 (Vertigo VEL2500)
Rolling Stones     Her Satanic Majesties Request
Flaming Youth      ARK II
Pink Floyd         Dark Side of the Moon
Vangellis          Friends of Mr. Cairo
Vangellis          Albedo 0.39
Ron Geesin         Right Through (Geesin records - RON323)
		   (Import-England)
Ron Geesin and Roger Waters   Music from the Body (EMI/Harvest
		   SHSP4008)
Finch              Glory of the Inner Force (Atco SD36124 [0698])
Pulsar             The Strands of the Future (Kingdom  KA20.226)
		   (France)
Cosmos Factory     A Journey With The Cosmos Factory  (EMI ETP72083)
		   (Japan)
Bonzo Dog Band     I'm The Urban Spaceman  (Sunset SLS50350) (England)
Bonzo Dog Band     The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhouse (Sunset 
		   SLS50210)
Tim Blake          Crystal Machine
Michael Mantler    The Happless Child and Other Inscrutable Tales
Fred Frith         Gravity
Richard Peisley    Passage


The last SFL that I read before submitting this was V6 #83.  At that
point I had noticed that nobody had mentioned several notable
contributions.  Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" is an adaptation of
the story by the same name by H. G. Wells. "Last Stage for
Silverworld" is a little known love story placed in the future and
told in music.

		Daniel Glasser  


------------------------------

From:	"JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 01-Dec-1982
Subject: SF music

I realise this is a bit late, but we've been having distribution problems
since our previous distributor left, and I've only just got the last month
or so of SFL. Anyway, here's my contribution to the SF-related music list.

The Pink Floyd foursome are:-

   o  Astronomy Domine
   o  Interstellar Overdrive

   o  Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun
   o  Saucerful of Secrets

The first two are from "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (1967).  The second
two are from "Saucerful of Secrets" (1968).  These  2 albums were later
re-released as a double album entitled "A Nice Pair". Live versions (as
opposed to studio versions)  of all except "Interstellar Overdrive" can
be found on the first album of the double album "UmmaGumma" (1969).

Then, of course, there is always "Dark Side of the Moon"....

Other space-oriented rock music in my collection :-

  o  "Space Oddity" (David Bowie)

  o  "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars".
     This is the full title of the David Bowie album normally referred
     to as "Ziggy Stardust".  Notable tracks: "Starman", "Lady Stardust"

  o  "Hunkydory" (also David Bowie) contains a track entitled "Life on Mars"

  o  "War of the Worlds". Put together by Rick Wakeman, but contains lots
     of other people. The most notable, however, is Richard Burton as the
     narrator.  If you've never heard this double album, you are missing
     a treat!

Not in my collection, but brought back to mind by the recent discussions
about Michael Moorcock - "Silver Machine", by Hawkwind.

In my collection, but not rock music - "Space Girl", by Peggy Seeger.
This is an excellent song (originally written for the Opera album "You're
Only Young Once"), and is a 'Traditional Folk Song of the 25th Century'.

And finally - "Urban Spaceman" by the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band. (Honestly,
I'm not making this up!).  This was released as a single in England, and
got into the top ten.  Best chance to hear it, I suppose, would be to ask
Dr. Demento.  He seems the most likely DJ to know about the Bonzos.

(If anyone can top this for obscurity, I don't want to know.  And anyway,
I actually HAVE a copy of this, rather than just having heard of it!).


P.S.
FLAME
I'd rather wade through a discussion of a topic in SFL that didn't
interest me very much (even at 300 baud), and see original contributions,
than get yet another re-print of an opinionated movie review that I could
get for myself from another source if I was really interested.
EMALF

[I try to put such things at the end of the digest, although book
reviews from the press will go earlier than movie reviews. --Stuart]

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #100
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 7, 1982 10:42PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #100
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 8 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 100

Today's Topics:
    Themes  - time travel, shrinking
    Misc    - small presses, beginning SF
    Queries - Sharra, perfect space suit
    T.V.    - Star Trek "Menagerie" & star dates
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ the other, light-saber, plot prediction
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 20:32:17 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Time travel

        From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>

        There are a lot of books concerning time travel, some good and
        some not so good. What are some favorites?

``Door into summer'' (Heinlein) and ``Time and Again'' (author 
unknown), not to be confused with the movie ``Time After Time''.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 10:03:04-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!microsof!uw-beave!uw-june!palmer at Ucb-C70
Subject: shrinking

    Enough of this science fiction stuff, try reality?

    When comet Kohoutek (sp?) passed by one year, there was someone
(in Arizona I think) who claimed that he was shrinking people 
(voluntarily), so that they could fit onto an alien's spaceship before
the comet hit the earth (on Christmas, of course).

    As you can see, we don't really need sf authors, pseudo-truth is 
stranger than fiction.

    David Palmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1982 0843-CST
From: marick at DTI (Brian Marick)
Subject: Small presses

        I'd like the addresses of some small presses: Gregg Press,
Elephant Press, and the like. Short descriptions of what they publish
would also be helpful. Please mail direct to me and I'll summarize for
the digest.

                                brian

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 1982 1333-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MULTICS>
Subject: Sharra


For those who are unaware of it, Sharra is a "character" from
Bradley's Darkover series.

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst
Date: 7-Dec-82 12:22:51 EST
Subject: Fantastic Voyage

There are more worms in the concept of miniaturization than are
immediately obvious, as with most good SF fetishes.  I can think of
only one author who even tried to come to grips with any of them, and
that's our old friend Dr. Asimov.

I read Fantastic Voyage when it was originally serialized in (would
you believe) the Saturday Evening Post early in 1966, and later when
the book hit print.  Here's a couple of points Dr. A. brought to
light:

You do not compress space without dilating time.  Time passed much
more slowly for the microsub's passengers than it did for the Real
World.  What was one hour in the Real World was a great many hours in
Benes' bloodstream.

Communication with the sub was next to impossible.  Rdaio waves
produced by the sub were actually wavelength-reduced far beyond
visible light into UV.  It was tracked on its journey by radiation 
from its nuclear power plant.

You do not simply poke a tube into Benes' lungs to grab more air to
breathe; the air molecules are almost literally big enough for the
sub's passengers to see; in the novel they used an on-board
miniaturizer to reduce the size of the air molucules to compatibility
with what was on board.

Asimov never explained why, but his contention was that radioactive
material is not reduceable, so that the atomic pile in the sub's
engine was driven by a speck of nuclear dust which "grew" to the
proper size as the sub shrank.

The screenplay played fast and loose with some of these items, but the
novel did its best to jive with physics as we knew them in 1966.
Visually, the film was stunning for its time; in particular the views
of the interior of the brain, with l;uminous purple impulses racing
along spinderweb neurons, impressed the hell out of 13-year-old me.  I
caught the film's great error, even then:  They didn't take the sub
out with them, and left behind fifty tons of metal and glass atoms to
automatically return to normal size inside Benes' poor head.  Now
that's an Excedrin headache...

(In the book, of course, the micronauts made damned sure the white 
blood cell which engulfed the sub followed them out through Benes'
tear ducts, and they "grew" in the miniaturization room with a proper
pile of wreckage behind them.  Asimov always comes through.)

I know of no other work of fiction which dealt so squarely with the
problems of large-scale miniaturization.

--Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@parc-maxc

------------------------------

Date: 8 December 1982 01:02-EST
From: Stewart D. Rubenstein <STEW at MIT-MC>
Subject: The perfect spacesuit

Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX> mentioned one example of the attempt to
describe an optimal spacesuit.  This topic has been at least 
glancingly addressed in probably hundreds of novels.

My vote for the perfect spacesuit goes to the symbiotic growth in 
Spider & Jean Robinson's "Stardance".  Even the humans' original 
spacesuits are pretty minimal.  This is an excellent novel, by the 
way; the characters are mostly believable, including the "aliens", and
I've read no other book which so vividly conveys a feeling for the 
absolute \awesomeness/ of outer space.

                                stew

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 1982 2214-EST
From: Nat Feldman <FELDMAN at NLM-MCS>
Subject: Miscellaneous

1) Shrinking-There was an Avengers episode entitled "Misson-Highly
Improbable", that involved a device for shrinking spies, tanks, etc.

2) Favorite ST-Personally, my favorites correspond exactly with Steve
Balzac's, and my least favorite (to be kind) is "The Mark of Gideon".
That episode's premise always struck me as utterly ridiculous, and was
just a way of being topical.  My eating club (Stevenson Hall,
Princeton University, circa 1975) established an in-house ratings
guide from 1 (worst) to 5 (best).  The solitary episode that rated a
five, I believe, was "The Trouble with Tribbles".  It's my father's
favorite as well.

3)My First S.F.-comic books, including the translation of the Frencch
Tin-Tin's.  Also, Citizen of the Galaxy and Runaway Robot by Lester
del Ray.

4) WAPP, a New York, northern New JerseyFM rock station is at 102.5 on
that rather crowded dial.  I did not know they were broadcasting Dr.
Demento, andd I would appreciate someone telling me whenit's on.

5) Someone (sorry I missed the name) suggested discussions on comic
book topics or some such.  Although I enjoy them, I have given up
reading them for now mostly because I cannot afford them.  I do credit
comic books with my early interest in science, expansion of my
vocabulary, and love of reading-despite the anti-intellectual
connotation they entail.

--Nathaniel Feldman

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 12:35:08-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70
Subject: SF beginnings

I read my first sf in the seventh grade -- we all ordered paperbacks, 
and I ordered "Costigan's Needle" for me, and a book on teen-age 
etiquette to please my mother.  From "Needle" I went to Wolheim's
(sp?)  "Green Man From Mars," Heinlein's "Secret of the Martian
Moons," and the Lucky Starr series (remember "Lucky Starr and the
Oceans of Venus?).  Then I went through my Andre Norton phase.  Her
early stuff was fantastic.  How about "Starman's Son," "Starborn," and
"Star Gate?"  For old time's sake, I reread Star Gate a few weeks ago.
Even at my advanced age (I was in the seventh grade in 1957), I still
get a kick now then reading some of those old "young adult" sf novels.

Mike Lynch BTL Short Hills

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 82 16:45:32 EST  (Tue)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Trek

        From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-UNIX>

        Many of the lines from "Menagerie" that dont seem to make much
        sense (in the "flashback" footage) make perfect sense when
        viewed in their original context.

        --Lauren--

        ------------------------------

One of these which took me quite a long time to figure out is how they
got the footage of Capt. Pike walking back to the Talosian's elevator
with the girl after he had beamed down to the planet, which was
televised to the Enterprise at the end of ``The Menagerie''. Since
they couldn't have known of the need for this scene when ``The Cage''
was filmed, and the notion that they went to the trouble of
re-creating the set for a 5-second shot seemed equally ridiculous,
there was no explanation for where this film came from.

The answer lies in Capt. Pike's request: ``You'll give her back her
illusion of beauty?'', to which the Talosian replies: ``Yes, that and
more.''. The ``more'' the Talosian was referring to (in the original)
was the illusion of Capt. Pike returning with her to the Talosian's
caves, not ``more beauty'' as was implied in the version which made it
to TV. Thus in ``The Cage'' the film is of an illusory Capt. Pike
returning to the elevator while in ``The Menagerie'' it is used as a
scene of the real capt. Pike.

This change of context seems rather clever. (and fortunate too, that
they were able to do it)

------------------------------

From: CAIN@MIT-AI
Date: 12/07/82 22:42:13
Subject: Stardates and ROTJ

CAIN@MIT-AI 12/07/82 22:42:13 Re: Stardates and ROTJ
To: sf-lovers at MIT-MC
Just a quick note:
  Stardates are an arbitrary sequence
of 5 digits (XXXX.X) in Star
Trek.  SUPPOSEDLY, they take into account
relativistic effects, but noone has
EVER explained that one to me.

About ROTJ, Obi Wan, and "The Other"--
Why shouldn't Obi be corporeal [sic]???
ROTJ chronolgically comes BEFORE Star
Wars (or A New Hope, as you like), and
thus has not yet been killed.  Also,
since this is (most probably, it seems
to me) about the end of the clone wars,

why does it even have to mention "the
other"?  In fact, they could make
alot more if they DON'T reveal him...(her?)

      Jonathan Levine
         CAIN @ MIT-AI
           (at least for December...)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 20:19:54 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  "Won back from the dark side"

        Subject: "Won back from the dark side"

        Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of
        bibles would you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe
        he was "won back" from genocidal tendancies?  After all, Vader
        only destroyed one planet...

No! It was Tarkin who ordered Alderaan destroyed. Vader just sat back 
and enjoyed the show.

------------------------------

Date: 5 December 1982 01:43 mst
From: Schauble.HDSA at M.PCO.LISD.HIS
Subject: "Won back from the dark side"
Reply-to: Schauble%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS



 Date: 1 Dec 1982 2233-PST
 Subject: "Won back from the dark side"
 From: Dave Dyer       <DDYER@USC-ISIB>


 Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of bibles would
 you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe he was "won back"
 from genocidal tendancies?  After all, Vader only destroyed one
 planet...

Unless my memory is suffering from several undetected parity errors,
it wasn't Vader who destroyed Alderaan. It was Governor Tarkin.

                    Paul

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 16:23:01-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!dennis at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SW other again

Ah HAH!  If it isn't someone we have seen, and there are no new
characters, then it must be the Millenium Falcon itself!  Don't forget
that Han had to get C3P0 to talk to the Falcon in order to learn what
the trouble was after Lando didn't fix it.  Therefore, there's
something in there...

With tongue firmly planted in cheek...

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 1982 1654-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MULTICS>
Subject: The Other

        In reality, the other is Kim Kinnison (the Gray Lensman, from
Doc Smith's books), who will drop in via Hyper-Spatial tube with
Mentor right behind him, and Richard Seaton in the Skylark of Valeron
to back them up.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 82 20:02:10 EST  (Tue)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke's light saber

When his hand was cut off, his light saber fell into that long waste
disposel shute (or whatever it was). When he fell in, and landed at
the bottom, did he get it back in the moment before he fell threw the
trapdoor?

This brings another, old, question: if Luke's father gave Obi-wan his
lightsaber to give to Luke, and Darth is Luke's father, where did
Vader get his saber? I got the impression that they were fairly rare.
(Maybe he saved up box tops from Crunchy Rebels cereal?)

                                                - rene

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 21:16:03 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: ROTJ: A scene I'd like to see

The line: ``I've got a bad feeling about this.'' has of course become
a Star Wars cliche. The proper person to utter the line in RotJ would
be Darth Vader at the start of the light saber battle between him and
Luke, when he realizes Luke has been practicing.

------------------------------

Date: 06 Dec 82 20:55:56 PST (Mon)
From: Stephen Willson <willson@uci>
Subject: TESB Plot

  Greetings fellow speculators:
  I think we can deduce a lot about the plot of TESB by reasoning from
a purely technical standpoint.  Consider the over-riding
consideration: Lucas is a sensitive person.  He wants very much to
make as many people happy as possible.  This is his mission.
  In SW4:ANH, he hit the broadest possible market: the average
American.  The reviews, while very favorable, still contained some
biting remarks.  Where is the love interest?  Where is the deeper
meaning?  The evil vs. good was often considered too black and white.
  The result of this is SW5:TESB, in which the issues are less black
and black and there is a love interest.  But where is the deeper
meaning?  I would like to suggest that many people will be satisfied
with Lucas if he does something somewhat abstract in SW6:RotJ.  He has
the job of doing this while not alienating the average American.  How
can the wizard of ILM accomplish both goals?
  Simple, as I see it.  What's your favorite SF movie with 'deep'
meaning?  2001, of course.  But 2001 is special: you can see it stoned
and still think it's great, because of the flashy ending.  Here's how
I see the basic plot structure of SW6:
  It has to start out with punch.  That's to keep Mr. Average American
happy.  The punch is from Lando and Chewie rescuing Han.  Using the
usual business of intercutting two plots that join later (ala the
first two movies), we also see Luke continuing his training and
wrapping up a few plot strands in conference with Yoda and OB1.
  After Han is rescued (Luke is still training) he returns to the new
rebel hide-out on Tatooine to be reunited with the princess.  The main
action here is Han's troublesome decision whether to settle down or to
remain Han 'Solo'.  How will this be resolved?  This is intercut with
the rebel's preparing the final assault (do or die) on the Emperor's
palace.  Luke is not seen so much .  In fact, we begin to worry, will
he arrive in time to help out?
  After exposing Han's reluctance to settle down, we start
intercutting with Darth and the Emperor.  We are introduced to 'the
other' during this time.  Darth is in charge of organizing the defense
of the Palace.  Still no word from Luke, as the rebel's begin to
transport themselves to the Palace.  Han is in charge, since the guy
in charge in SW5 was killed.
  The battle begins (lots of explosions for Mr. Average American).
Han is almost killed, but *Surprise*, Luke shows up under the ethereal
guidance of OB1 and saves him.  (After all, as Han says, "That's two
you owe me Junior".)  We begin intercutting between Luke's independent
trek through the Palace in search of Darth and the Emperor, and the
general battle.
  Luke and Darth come upon each other.  Now comes the 'deep' part that
Mr.  Average American can get into.  Remember 2 things: in SW5 we saw
just a taste of Darth's power in terms of winging stuff around.  Also,
SFX have improved since then.  One imagines the insuing fight to be
fought not only with light sabres but with the maximum available power
from the force.  The 'deep' part is going to be the mental battle that
wages between Luke and Darth.  Darth is going to pull out all the
stops and do clever things to try to trick Luke (like changing form
and causing all kinds of neat illusions to try to confound Luke).
Fortunately, the ethereal OB1 will help out.  Their fight will be
quite psychodelic.  Meanwhile, the more mundane fighting by the rebels
will be intercut.
  Leia will be captured along with Han by the Emperor.  They will be
held as hostages against an advancing Luke and army.  (Luke will have
dispatched Vader by this time.)  Unfortunately, Luke is extremely weak
from his battle with Darth, and can't save them alone.  Good thing for
the 'other', who will provide the required opening.
  Everyone is saved.  Han settles down with Leia.  Luke marries the
Emperor's daughter, thus unifying the kingdom.  We have a psychodelic
ending.  (You can tell that I think many people will take the
psychodelic ending to be 'deep', somehow.)  Darth and the Emperor are
dispatched.  The long struggle to rebuild a civilized Empire begins as
the screen irises down to reveal the credits.
  Remember, you heard it here first!
				-- Steve Willson


------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #101
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 9, 1982 2:47AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #101
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:
    Themes - time travel
    Misc   - pronouncing Leibowitz, beginning SF
    Cons   - Chicago convention
    T.V.   - favorite Star Trek episodes
    Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ's Other + Tolkien
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 December 1982  20:14-EST (Wednesday)
From: Paul Fuqua  <LS.PF at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Comments on Reality and Time Travel



Comments on two subjects, not on the combination.

Reality:

    Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982  15:35-PST
    From: Jonathan Alan Solomon <JSol at USC-ECLC>
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   The Other [rebuttal]

    (....)

    The Force binds the universe together. Every physical
    object, living or not, has a mapping into some universal
    array. Ideas are merely conceptions of something not yet
    explained in this universal array.  If you decide that
    the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons, and
    Electrons, and there is no strong opposition
    (counter-example) to that theory, then it holds. Every
    mind in the universe begins to accept this theory as
    fact. Once the theory is proven beyond reasonable doubt,
    it becomes part of our interpretation of reality.

    (....)

I know this passage appeared quite a while ago, but I only just
discovered Bboards and mailing lists.

Reality as only the perceptions of the observer is quite a popular
theme in writing of several genres, but only once have I seen a story
actually *built* on the theme.  The story is "The New Reality," a
novella by Charles L.  Harness, published in 1953 and reissued in
1969.  The basic situation involves a future (1960s!) International
Censorship Board, charged with the task of preventing changes in the
current reality.  The investigator A.  Prentiss Rogers, under the
orders of E, is studying the activities of a Professor Luce.  Luce, it
turns out, has developed a device with which he expects to reach the
base reality by destroying the present one, through forcing a single
photon to reflect off a prism set at *precisely* 45 degrees.  The
photon will be unable to "decide," and slow down, blowing away the
present reality.  There is a lot of information presented, in an
authentic-sounding manner, about past realities differing from the
present.  For example, no people until the early Greeks noticed that
ships disappeared over the horizon, so the world was flat until then.
Or, the elements that Mendeleev predicted to fill the holes in the
periodic table did not exist until believed-in.  The ending is
somewhat disappointing: the base reality is some sort of garden, the
A. in Prentiss's name stands for Adam, E is Eve, and Luce is a snake.

The reissue contains also "The Rose," a longer and, to me, more
interesting novel (Art vs Science), "The Chessplayers," about a
chess-playing rat named Zeno, and an introduction by (what, him
again?) Michael Moorcock.


Time Travel:

The most logical time-travel story I read was a short-short whose
basic premise was that when one rides in a time machine (a la H G
Wells), it's not the machine that moves through time, but its
*contents*.

                                pf

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1982 1750-PST
Subject: Leibowitz
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

is how it is spelled on the book title I've got.
        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 82 9:33:16-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!zeppo!whuxk!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70
Subject: re: pronouncing Leibowitz

Although I don't usually flame (and this ain't much of a flame anyway)
the reason given for the pronunciation of Leibowitz struck me as so
outlandish I felt I had to reply.  For one thing Yiddish is Old German
and was the language the German Jews fleeing to the East took with 
them in the Middle Ages/Reforemation.  I also believe that Lieb is
pronounced Leeb in modern German as well (but not speaking German I am
not sure of this).  I think English is the language causing confusion
not Yiddish or German.  After all to quote G. B. Shaw you can justify
spelling the word fish as ghothi (or somenthing close to this) in
English.  The only person qualified to answer the way the name of the
is pronounced is the author (vis a vis Byron's Don Juan (pronounced
Jou-an not Huan) just to get back at those snotty know-it-alls who
spoke Spainish and kept correcting him).

                                Oh well,
                                Tom Harris

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 10:00:55-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70
Subject: My origins into SF

This should also go to net.jokes!  The first SF book I read as a kid
was "The Gilead Bomb".  I stayed up late into the night to finish
it--it was the first time I had read an entire book in one shot.  My
intellectual peak came a few years later when I read Asimov's 
Foundation Trilogy (which is now a 'Quadragy').  Does everyone know
about the "YES" song about it?  Things went downhill after I joined
the SF Book Club, and never sent in the little cards saying I did
*NOT* want the selection-of-the-month.  My parents ended up with a
pile of bills, and I ended up with a shelf full of unread books.

By the way, I read "HARLIE" recently, on a recommendation.  I thought
it had very few redeeming aspects.  If anyone disagrees, I'd love to
hear some opinions.

                                                Jim Heliotis

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 11:01:49-PST (Wed)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihima!dhp at Ucb-C70
Subject: Chicago SF Convention

Announcing, a Science Fiction Convention:

                WindyCon IX (a holiday relaxicon)
                        December 10-12 1982
                        $15 at the door

Guests of Honor:                Location:
Frederik Pohl,                  Hyatt Lincolnwood
Jack Williamson                 4500 West Touhy
                                Lincolnwood IL  (312) 677-5400

WindyCon is normally a full-spectrum regional convention.  However,
since Chicago (and more importantly Chicago convention fandom) have
just finished hosting the World Science Fiction Convention this year,
we decided to try to decompress by throwing a big weekend party.
Programming (sic) is minimal, no films, but oh, those all-night
parties!

An Art Show will allow artists to show off their best, and you can bid
on the pieces at the Saturday night auction.  The Huckster Room
contains book and sf curiosity sellers, for your enlightenment and
entertainment.

Getting There:

By car: Take either the Tri-State Tollway (I-294) or the Edens
Expressway (I-94) to Touhy Avenue, and go east.  The Hyatt Lincolnwood
is a large purple building on the north (left) side of the street,
about a mile east of the Edens.

By public transport: Take the Howard-Jackson Park/Englewood transit
line to Howard Street.  From there take either the Route 290 or 291
NORTRAN bus (note - last bus leaves Howard Street at 10:30 p.m.)  In
addition, the hotel is arranging a shuttle service to the Howard
Street Station (sorry, but I have no schedule on that.  Call the hotel
and ask).

Come and enjoy a relaxing weekend with us crazies!



                                Douglas Price
                                Analysts International Corp .
                                at BTL (Indian Hill) IL
                                ...!ihps3!ihima!dhp (312) 979-4416

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 82 12:13:51-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!rtris at Ucb-C70
Subject: Best ST

Doesn't anybody out there like Amok Time?  It's among my favourites.
                                                Ralph.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1982 2240-EST
From: Mike First <FIRST at NLM-MCS>
Subject: City on the Edge of Forever

I agree with those who claimed that "City..." was the best ST episode.
The connection with Harlan Ellison is not quite what one would expect
from the title credits.  A number of years ago, Tom Snyder (on his
now-defunct Tomorrow Show) had a segment on "Trekkies".  He started 
the segement out with DeForrest Kelley and Jimmy Doohan as guests, and
actually made them looke pretty stupid if I remember correctly (if you
ever have had the honor to hear them speak ot a convention, you won't
be very suprised).  Well anyway, in the second half of the episode, he
had on Harlan Ellison, who proceeded to claim that ST was crap, that
Roddenberry totally altered his script (I believe he even tried to
have his name taken off the credits) and that Trekkies were total 
fools!  Given Ellison's personality (and egged on by Snyder) it was
not an shocking event.  Needless to say, the sharp tongued Ellison did
take McCoy and Scotty by surprise and they were rather dumbfounded,
kind of mumbling afterward and looking ridiculous (Ellison made some
comment about how funny it was that these two actors continue to cater
to the Trekkies and that neither has done anything since).  I wish I
had a VTR for this one!  (also I would have loved to have seen the
original script-- I still think this "ruined-for-television" version
was superlative!)
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 7:46:59-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!FtG at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW/ESB Q&As

Last words (?) on Other/etc.-

Flame on-
It appears that the main reason that Leia is ignored/discounted as
being even a serious candidate for the Other is because she's a SHE
(gasp).  SF has always been known to be the last refuge of MCPs, so
what can you expect?
Flame off-

Re: "Goodness" of exit of BF's ship.
Yes, it is tinged in positive/emotional colors and sound, and it
indeed is "in honor" of someone on that ship, but we already know
there is a good guy aboard.  Think about-
(Stumped, here's a hint- his initials are H.S.)

Time to start a new discussion-

Question: Who's in charge here?  The SW movies so far seem to be
extremely vague about the leadership of the rebels/Alliance. Why? Who
is in charge, where are they, what is their future role in a
post-empire government?  Princess Leia appears to be the highest
ranking royalty, assuming the Alliance is organized along those lines.
Luke is said to be in charge of the rebel forces on Hoth though,
despite the fact he is merely "Commander" while there is Leia and a
general around. (Apparently even in the SW universe, no on ehas
figured out that separation of services is a bad idea, the empire also
suffers from the same problem.)  If we knew who the true leaders of
the rebels are, we could figure out whjo comes out ahead in RotJ.
                        FtG
                        rocheste!

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1982 0323-EST
From: Greg Skinner <Gds at MIT-XX>
Subject: SW <--> Tolkien

        Actually, the Emperor <--> Morgoth, since Morgoth is at the 
top of the list of enemies.
        In addition, we don't know who the Emperor really *is* yet -- 
according to the SW book his former name was Senator Palpatine.  This 
leads me to believe that the Emperor is some "other" sort of character
who, like Vader, chose the dark side.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 1982 02:36:50-EST
From: csin!alex at CCA-UNIX
Subject: No, there is another.



To me it is interesting that Vader told Luke to release his anger,
"Only your hatred (anger?) can destroy me."  This is of course the
opposite of what Yoda and Obi-wan have said ("Mind what you have
learned -- save you it can").  When Luke started getting emotional was
when he started losing control of the Force -- here we see that the
Dark side is controlled by strong negative emotions, whereas the good
side is almost a Zen-like trance.  Is it possible that Vader's
disclosure that he was Luke's father was what helped Luke in the end?
Recall that at that time Luke was beaten and injured, and hanging on
for his life at the end of the ... thing.  Luke did not accept the
implication of Vader's disclosure, however, and looked down and
allowed himself to fall.  The way it looked to me, he had regained
some calm and control when he did that.

Later on the Falcon, when Vader mind-speaks to him, his reaction is
not to Vader -- he hears Vader but does not respond, either negatively
or positively to Vader.  Instead, he wonders why Ben didn't tell him.
Clearly he accepts the fact that Vader is his father at that point.
But he does not accept any implications of that fact.

NOW FOR A SPOILER.

At ChiCon, some of the information we gleaned from the LucasFilm
people (who, me?  I was sitting in the fourth row....) indicated that
there will be only two planetfalls (Dagobah and Tatooine), and that no
new major characters were being introduced.  Also, all loose ends will
be tied up.  Some of this is inferred, some is from statements made by
the LucasFilm rep.  (I can't remember if it was Gary Kurtz or someone
else.)

                                        Alexis Layton
                                        alex@CCA-UNIX
                                        decvax!cca!alex

P.S.  Would someone who was there please mail me?  I want to check my
memory on something.

------------------------------

Date: Tue Dec  7 13:25:39 1982
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo@Berkeley
Subject: The Other

Interesting suggestion that OB1, Darth, the Emperor and Boba Fett 
might be clones of one another.  I seem to recall that Darth was much
taller than OB1.  Did OB1 then have a stunted childhood ?  Just how
did all these clones get distributed around all over the place.  What
kind of childhood did they have?
                Geo Swan
                Integrated Studies
                University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 12:02:26-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ - (nf)

#R:sri-unix:-471800:hp-pcd:8200006:000:1083
hp-pcd!everett    Dec  8 08:37:00 1982

From: Everett Kaser
      hplabs!hp-pcd

Revenge of the Jedai does *not* take place before Star Wars. It
follows directly after The Empire Strikes Back (both in the order it
was produced and in the chronological order of the story).

The Star Wars epic as it is supposed to be conceived of by George
Lucas is this: It consists of nine parts (movies) broken up into three
trilogies; Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Revenge of the
Jedai are the middle three movies, or the second trilogy. The first
trilogy is suppose to be about the fall of the original republic, the
second about the fight of the republics remnant (the rebels) against
the empire, and the third about the rebirth of the republic (or
something along those lines; if I'm grossly wrong, I'm sure I'll hear
about it).

RotJ will tell the story of Han Solo recovering his mobility ('loosing
his cool', so to speak?), Luke facing off with Darth Vader, etc. etc.
Therefore, if Obi whatever is again corporeal, it's because he's
regained his physical being, not because the movie takes place
'before' Star Wars.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line:  9-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #102
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 9, 1982 9:35PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #102
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 10 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 102

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Asimov's FANTASTIC VOYAGE, Simak's TIME AND AGAIN
    Misc    - WSFS rules
    Radio   - A Canticle for Leibowitz in DC
    T.V.    - Star Trek City on the Edge of Forever & Ellison
    Movies  - Mad Max, SW/TESB/ROTJ light saber & mechanical hand &
	      cave scene
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:10:40-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: re FANTASTIC VOYAGE

   Yes, Asimov makes a great noise in his autobiography about how he
accounted for some details they ignored in the movie. However, my
recollection is that he used the same injection procedure (first
shrinkage, drop 1" sub in giant syringe full of saline, second
shrinkage, now normal-sized syringe used) which leaves Benes trying to
hold in his own volume or more of saline after the hour is up.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:08:12-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: TIME AND AGAIN

   is by Clifford Simak. Similar ideas turn up in his TIME IS THE
SIMPLEST THING.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:21:37-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: WSFS rules

   Whoops! Slight misrecollection of the bylaws there: a concom cannot
be bound to \spend/ \money/ by any rules adopted after it was selected
(although business meetings have in the past asked standing concoms to
contribute to WSFS-related costs and the concoms have generally
assented).  Constellation could not be affected by the Hugo-spreading
rule, however, since only the business meeting could apply it and the
rules took effect after the business meeting adjourned. (Aren't
fannish politics exciting?!?).

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:28:01-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: more on WSFS

   For various reasons I need to get some information quickly from
those of you who think you are likely to get to Constellation (the
1983 World SF Convention, held in Baltimore over Labor Day weekend
1983). If you're in this group, please mail to me by next Wednesday
the following info:

   1. Would you be interested in a 1-2 hour harbor cruise, either
Saturday or Sunday afternoon, hopefully with a number of authors on
board (so you could meet them in a less-crowded setting---obviously
this is dependent on the authors but try to generalize since you might
not know until boarding who was there).
   2. If yes, would you be willing to pay $1 to cover cruise costs?
$2?

Mail answers to CJH@CCA-UNIX (usenet: ...decvax!cca!csin!cjh)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 1936-EST
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ at NLM-MCS>
Subject: A Canticle for Leibowitz in DC


ACfL is a 15 part series which will be played on WAMU (88.5) saturdays
from 7:30 to 8:00 P.M. starting Jan 1.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 13:19:00-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!microsof!fluke!vax1.witters at Ucb-C70
Subject: Mad Max in Seattle

The Seattle Film Society will be showing "Mad Max", the predecessor to
"The Road Warrior" on Friday Dec. 10, 1982 at 7:00, 9:00, and 11:00 PM
at the Seattle Concert Theater.  I don't know what the addmission
charge is, or whether you must be a member of the Seattle Film Society
to attend.  I also don't know whether this is the origional Australian
version, or the one that was dubbed into "American English" and shown
only at drive in theaters.  I tried calling their number
(206-325-7632), but got a recording that didn't tell me much.

                                          John Witters

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 1645-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: City on the Edge of Forever and Ellison


According to what I read a few years ago on Ellison's script, it was 
changed because it did not fit into the ST universe.  For instance, it
had at least one crew mutiny as a major plot device (the crew is sick
of Kirk or something like that).  While I am sure that there are those
who will think this a good idea, it still doesn't fit ST

[Ellison has published the original script somewhere (future plays
collection?). I actually prefer the Star Trek script to his and think
Roddenberry's changes produced a superior teleplay. This is about the
only case I can think of where I preferred a doctored Ellison script
to the original. --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 19:53:59-EST
From: David-J-Aronson-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A
Subject: Source of "We the People" quote


        Sorry, JHendler, I believe you are wrong about it being from
the Declaration of Independence (that starts out "When in the course
of human events..."). However, you are partially right in that the
quote in question is not from the Constitution itself, but from the
Preamble (which may or may not be considered a part of the
Constitution).

                        Dave Aronson
                        dja@ee-ampere@cmu-cs-a

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 1311-PST
Subject: STWOK and inconsistancies
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

In catching up on old messages, I came across a message about an 
inconsistancy in Star Trek II.  The message stated that the date on
the bottle of Ale said 2283, yet the start of the movie clearly says
"In the 23rd century."

I suprised no one caught this, but 2283 IS IN the 23rd Century, just 
as it is now 1982, but the 20th century!

                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 1982 1010-PST
From: Richard M. King <KING at KESTREL>
Subject: Luke's mechanical hand

        The Force is supposed to be a property of life.  I wonder if
the fact that Luke now has a mechanical hand will figure in RotJ?

                                                Dick

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 9:28:49-PST (Wed)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!otuxa!nwuxc!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcd
From: aniel at Ucb-C70
Subject: tesb: cave scene failure? - (nf)

#N:uiucdcs:12500008:000:306
uiucdcs!mcdaniel    Dec  8 09:20:00 1982

What made Luke's performance in the cave a failure?  (When he's
running off to save Han &c, Yoda says something like "remember your
failure in the cave".) Also, why didn't he need his weaponry?
                                  Tim McDaniel
                                  (. . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 1:22:42-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!npoiv!alice!rabbit!ark at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: tesb: cave scene failure? - (nf)

Gee, wasn't it in the cave where Luke lost his concentration to anger
early on and everything came crashing down?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 6:50:03-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!bukys at Ucb-C70
Subject: re: test: cave scene failure?

Perhaps Luke was expected to let the Vader-image slash him the same
way Obiwan let Vader participate in his dis-corporation.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 22:16:28-EST (Thu)
From: Charles Kennedy <kermit@BRL>
Subject: Re:  Luke's light saber

I just saw TESB again the other night and I noticed that when Luke 
fell through the disposal shute (or whatever it was) and landed on the
antennas under the city, I could see something falling past him.  That
something could have been either his light saber, his hand, or both
(maybe they were fused together??).

By the way, I got a kick out of your story about the librarian and the
recommendation of the book "Snowy".
                                        Cheers,
                                                Chuck Kennedy
                                                <kermit @ brl>

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 10-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #103
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 10, 1982 6:54PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #103
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 11 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 103

Today's Topics:
    Books/Stories - Vinge True Names and Anderson's The Saturn Game, 
		    Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun, Varley's work
		    and why are Titan/Wizard tiresome?
    Themes        - Shrinking, reality alternation
    Misc	  - SF media, decompression, Hitch-Hiker's Guide
		    to the Net (part 1)
    T.V.	  - Star Trek
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10-Dec-82 15:24:21 PST (Friday)
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: True Names and The Saturn Game

In regard to csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX's statement in V6#99, "I happen to 
think that 'True Names' was better than the winner, Anderson's 'The
Saturn Game'; that may reflect my dislike of tSG's subject":

What does csin!cjh see as "tSG's subject"?  It seems to me that "True
Names" and "The Saturn Game" had very nearly the SAME subject, to wit,
an extension of the Fantasy Role Playing idea to where the fantasy
world actually feels real to the player (or at least as real as a
dream does to the dreamer).  In True Names, the fantasy world was the
way a human experienced direct neural IO linkage with a computer; in
"The Saturn Game" it was the result of genetic and other enhancements
to the imaginative capabilities of people sent on long space missions.
Both stories played off the advantages of this enhanced experience
against the dangers of being unable to respond properly to the real
world while living in the fantasy one.  This conflict was the major
theme of "The Saturn Game"; it was a minor one in "True Names", whose
main theme was the implications of machine/human symbiosis.

I too preferred "True Names" to "The Saturn Game", though I liked them
both a lot.  My preference is partly because I'm a programmer (not an
astronaut or geologist), and Vinge did a very good job of
capturing/extrapolating the culture of the programmer.  I think Vinge 
also did a better job than Anderson at capturing the flavor of the FRP
culture, and he was even quite good at representing the police-officer
mentality.  The characterization in "The Saturn Game" was weaker.  But
my main objection to "The Saturn Game" was that I could never really
suspend my disbelief in the notion that a fantasized ice castle 
setting would have more emotional pull than the actual experience of 
walking about on Saturn's moon, no matter how altered the imaginations
of the explorers were.  In "True Names", the programmers were seated 
in consoles, with almost all their sensory input coming from the 
computer (near the end, it becomes a sensory overload, in fact), so it
is much easier to believe that the fantasy world could become real 
than when it is an entirely internal construct competing with the 
astounding and demanding real experience of exploring a beautiful and
dangerous new world.

Anderson probably won the Hugo not for the main theme of his work, but
for the subplot of clever people in dire straits figuring out an 
ingenious way to rescue themselves.  This plot has been a sure winner 
for SF short stories and novelettes ever since Asimov's first
published story, "Marooned Off Vesta".  In the same vein, I can recall
a story about a couple "walking" a bubble-tent back to a moon base
after a picnic in the nude, and getting a bad sunburn in the process.
I don't remember the name or author.  And one of Varley's stories with
the clinging-mirror-spacesuits had a similar subplot ("Retrograde
Summer", I think it was).  How many others can you think of?

-- Teri Pettit at Xerox OSD

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 22:11-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun

I have now twice read the first volume (THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER) in
a vain attempt to convince myself that it is the beginning of an 
earth-shaking effort or "the best SF I've read all year (Le Guin)".
It would appear to be the beginning of just another quest story and
having just finished LORD OF THE RINGS for the first time, I don't
think I can handle yet another of these.  Could someone out there who
has read the entire tetralogy and admires it please explain what
he/she thinks is so marvelous about it?  Mike "the Monk" Urban, are
you listening?  I'll admit that Wolfe handles his language better than
most SF authors I've read but the story itself seems extremely drawn
out and the characters don't catch my fancy.  Maybe it's just that I
don't much care for sword and sorcery and quests.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 13:34-PST
From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL
Subject: Shrinking

Fritz Leiber's "The Swords of Lankhmar" has Fahfrd (or the Grey
Mouser?)  shrink down to rat size.  The extra mass was shed at the
time of shrinking, leaving a pool of pinkish tissue.  When the effect
wore off the hero absorbed mass from surrounding objects, with amusing
consequences.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982  1:52:07 CST (Friday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: short dump

~= FtG claimed that "SF is the last refuge of the MCP" or some such
(oh, for a real mailer...). I remember seeing somewhere tht SF had the
HIGHEST imply that you would have trouble as a writer.  Just look at
Alice Sheldon in all her avatars.

Finally, the Grand Master himself tends to make his female characters
much more intelligent/competent/etc. than his male characters I have
lots to say about the womens movement & ERA, but this isn't the place.
FtG (whoever s/he is) can contact me personally if she wants to hear
it.  =~

Paul Fuqua mentioned changing reality via massed believe.  He failed
to mention a GOOD story that uses this idea, and a mediocre
novel/movie.

The story is the Amber series by Zelazny, wherein the inhabits of the 
`base reality,' Amber, can move at will from one `reality,' or shadow,
by moving, and thinking about what the want the universe to be like.  
Good stuff - when Good stuff - but I like reality-warping stories
(probably has something to do with having a warped view or reality...)

The mediocre novel is `The Lathe of Heaven,' by LeGuin. The writing is
up to LeGuin's usuall standard, but the solution is obvious from very
early in the thing.

Almost forgot - Laumer has something using a concept similar to the
Amber trick in `The World Shuffler,' and it's sequel, `The Time
Bender.' This is Laumer with his tongue in his cheek, and I enjoyed it
as much as I do the Retief stories.

Since short stories have been introduced in the time travel topic, I
have to mention the classics:

`All You Zombies' has the most convoluted plot knot of anything I have
ever read. For example, our hero is her own mother and father, and he
inroduced himself to herself.

`By His Bootstraps' is another tale wherein the protagonist meets
himself coming, going, and trying to stop himself from going. This is
also mind-warping stuff.

Both by Heinlein (The Grand Master).

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982  2:30:06 CST (Friday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Science Fiction Media

I noticed something in a non-big-three media that might be of
interest.

Namely, the discussion in SFL shows an interesting warp. Movies and TV
both have a high concentration of discussion in a small area. Movies
tends to stick be almost entirley Dr. Who/Star Trek, with some
comments on other things.  [Of course, there's no mention of my
favorite - Lost In Space - the best sitcom of the bunch.]

Books, on the other hand, tend to wander all over the landscape.
Occasionally, some particular topic will generate a lot of verbiage,
but not to the degree that SW dominates movies.

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 10-Dec-82  9:21:23 PST (Friday)
From: Tou at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #99

If I remember my high school American history correctly, "We the
people of the United States..." is the opening line of the Preamble to
the Constitution.  "When in the course of human events..." is the
beginning of the Declaration of Independence.  And of course, the
pledge of allegiance begins "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."

------------------------------

From: duntemann.wbst
Date: 10-Dec-82 14:15:46 EST
Subject: American History 101...

Come come.  "We the People of the United States of America..." could
hardly be the opening line of the Declaration of Independence.  Think
about it.  (Or don't bother -- The Declaration starts out: "When in
the course of human events..."  "We the People..." DOES, in fact,
begin the Constitution.)

Other odd notes:

        Does anyone actually HAVE a copy of The Citadel of the
Autarch?  I heard it was delayed for some reason.

        Time and Again was by Albert Finney.  He was the only person I
can imagine who would accurately depict Victorian New York City as the
Ninety Third Circle of Hell and then wax nostalgic about it for
another hundred pages.  Dopey, entertaining book.

        Open question:  I have frequently heard people badmouth
Varley's Wizard/Titan Twothirdology in a general way, but nobody has
ever said specifically what's wrong with it.  I have some powerful
difficulties with the book, but I'll bet they don't jive with
everybody else's.  Some comments are solicited.

        Some of Varley's other notions trouble me as well.  I can't 
quite cope with the notion of "casual sex change."  It took me damned 
near twenty five years to make total peace with the sex I was born 
with, and I suspect that if I were abruptly placed in the body of a
woman I would nevertheless still think like a man for a great many
years, and perhaps forever, since I think the many subtle
rites-of-passage through puberty are essential in pinning down among
the many layers of the mind the reality of being male or female.
Varley's sex-change stories work because Varley says they work, not
because he convinced me with his evidence.

        Final (in all two many ways, perhaps) plea:  My arpanet link 
through PARC-MAXC evaporates on January 1 because my manager will no 
longer pay for it.  If someone can contact me privately with info on
how to get at it through other means I would be exceedingly grateful,
otherwise you will hear lots of silence from this boy from now on.

        In any event, it's been great good fun...

                Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC
                                (716) 427-4886 or 473-2986

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 16:59:22-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jah at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous

Re: explosive decompression

A lot of bullticky has been said about this subject from people 
claiming to be informed since they are SCUBA divers.  In each of the
messages from these so called experts I've seen gross misstatements 
about diving.
  The number of dive fatalities from drowning is closer to 90%.
  The depth of salt water equal to one atmosphere is 33 feet, not 31.
  The amount of pressure to blow a lung is about 4-5 psi, but this
   will NOT occur if the airways are kept open (barring certain
complications
   I do not wish to go into here).  I am no expert on space or
decompression to 0 atmospheres, but I am somewhat expert on SCUBA
diving and dislike seeing all this misinformation being bandied about.
  Jim Hendler
  NAUI instructor #6622

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Dec 1982 10:17-PST
Subject: Re: Decompression
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX

        No one seems to have remembered the fact that the Russians
lost some astronauts to decompression.  Their landings are over land
and are automated, so it wasn't till the capsule was opened that they
were found to be dead.  I'm not sure if we (the West) ever found out
if the decompression they suffered was "explosive" or gradual, but the
victims reportedly suffered no visible external damage and appeared
outwardly to be peacefully asleep.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 19:50:12-EST
From: David-J-Aronson-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A
Subject: assorted random thoughts


1) There have been some good stories on reality alterations in Isaac 
Asimov's SF Magazine (at least I liked them). There was a series about
a man with the innate ability to "edit events", by making things
"[not] have happened." Very strange. Better was a series of stories
about a "temporal detective," whose job is to patch reality when it's
been tampered with (using a time travel machine which looks like a
garbage can, and has tracers to detect residual energy from previous
tampering). It deals a lot with the inevitable frustration at having
to wipe out better alternative realities, and (more importantly) your
customers not "having hired you" after you patch reality, since there
"never was" a need for it.

2) Now that we know Darth Vader == Dark Father, I can't help wondering
about the Jedi. That sounds like some sort of plural, of some Latin
word like Jedus. Anybody out there know Latin? I sure don't.

3) While we're on the subject of Jedi, I don't recall anybody 
mentioning, in the music discussion, "Yoda", by Weird Al Yankovick
(sp?).  Surely there must be many Demensions and Dementites on this
list....

4) A comics digest might be a good idea. I'm not into it myself, but I
know a few people here at CMU who would read it regularly.

5) This stuff about explosive decompression and better spacesuits
(like better mouse-traps?) is taking up a lot of space (no pun
intended, oddly enough) both here and in the Space digest.  Why don't
we save disk and real space and confirm our suspicions? Take somebody
from death row and let him die for science.  ( :-) )


       Keep on randomizing, (entropy, entropy, all winds down...)

                Dave Aronson
                dja@cmu-ee-ampere@cmu-10a

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Dec 1982 09:02:30-PST
From: RHEA::HARDY::GLASSER%Shasta at SU-Score
Subject: Submission (possibly redundant)

I stole the following from the USENET net.jokes newsgroup.  I thought
that SFL should see it.  I hope that the author does not mind.

				Daniel Glasser
				[USENET address ...!decvax!sultan!dag
				 no reliable ARPA address.]

From: decvax!sultan!decvax!genradbo!grkermit!markm
Newsgroups: net.jokes

					 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
					   Episode 1 - First Meeting

One day, not long after tomorrow, Arnold Lint was busy scrolling
through the seemingly infinite reaches of the Net. All of a sudden the
news stopped with an abrupt thud, followed by the angry message "YOUR
NODE HAS BEEN REDUCED TO A LITTLE BLACK, GREASY SPLOTCH IN MY MEMORY
SPACE!!".  No sooner had he assimilated this horrendous event when a
great suction like noise began to eminate from his terminal.  "This is
it", he said to himself, "I'm going to die". The screen on his
terminal the imploded and he suddenly found himself sucked into the
terminal . . . . . . . . . . . .

(Arnold Lint regains consciousness, only to find himself in the
company of an odd trio. One of the trio is an apparently normal human
male (named Rod Perfect) and the second is a voluptuos young woman
(named Gillian). The third is also a normal male (named Xaphod
Gronklebox), except for a third, mechanical, arm and a 12" CRT on his
shoulder that keeps scrolling "Pieces of Eight, Pieces of Eight".)

Rod: Evening all! I'm Rod Perfect, awfully rude of you imploding on
	us this way, you silly twit.
Arnold Lint: Sorry. Am I dead?

Xaphod: Obviously not, you semi-evolved simian! Are all you
	net-landers so stupid. If you were dead would I be talking to
        you? I'm Xaphod Gronklebox, the famous inter-net-al criminal
	and dog	molester - you must have heard of me.

Arnold Lint: Actually, no, I haven't.
Xaphod: Oh well, your loss. I just hijacked this node! It's called
	the Infinity, isn't it wild. Just imagine the places we can go
	in this	baby.

(Rod notices that Arnold's eyes are transfixed on the young woman)

Rod: Her name's Gillian, at least that's what she wants to be called.
     Actually, her real name is Gertrude Floogie, but she didnt't like
     it, so she changed it.

(Arnold Lint detects a mechanical sound to his right. A robot soon
walks into view)

Robot:	My name is Martin. I am sure you will have an
	absolutely awful time on this node, I always have.
	I do not know why they insist on trying to do
	things to change the Net, they can only make it
	worse.  No matter what happens, some one always
	says something stupid and ruins everything. Then
	someone else feels obliged to a rebuttal, and on
	and on it goes. How awful. Still, what do you
	expect from an imperfect Net.

Rod: Martin is a bit, well, depressing.
Xaphod: He's a real downer, man!
Martin: That's right, ridicule me. See what I care. I'm only an
	android. Just another example of cruelty in this awful Net.

(********************************************************************
The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines cruelty as having to see
constant repetitions of the same salutory comment in more than 20
messages.  History shows that a war was fought over the repetition of
the statement "If you don't like my name - push off, signed xxxx"
appearing in 200 messages from the node of Moronicus. Since that
time, any time a salutory message is used more than 20 times,
subsequent violators have their pelvis screwed to a cake stand while
they are forced to watch repeats of "The Gong Show".
********************************************************************)

Arnold Lint: Well, what do we do now? 
Xaphod:	We're on our way to Netrothea. (The 12" CRT on his
	shoulder now starts repeating "Polly want a
	sedative, Polly want a sedative") There's supposed
	to be all sorts of wild and amazingly great things
	in that place!

Rod: Martin, set course for Netrothea!
Martin: All right, but you're not going to like it.
Gillian: What will we find on Netrothea?
Xaphod: Well, there's supposed to be a huge stockpile of data there
	that we can sell to the Net for millions.
Arnold Lint: A stockpile of what?
Xaphod: Data! Data! You idiot. Knowledge is power in the Net. All
that data has been accumulating over the centuries. Just imagine the
amazingly amazing philosophical Net-discussions that it stored. I mean,
the Net is the focal point of all wisdom. Just think of all that
smart stuff! Wow!

(********************************************************************
The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" insists that the focal point of
all knowledge in not the Net itself. Rather, it is the fourth stall in
the mens room in Grand Central Station. No one has ever been dumb
enough to waste time disproving this wild claim, so the publishers
avoided some nasty laws suits.
********************************************************************)

Xaphod: We'll have millions! We'll by everything! No, we'll have
	billions, trillions, . . . .

(Xaphod begins to shake violently and froth at the mouth, then he
falls over backward. A few seconds later he comes to.)

Xaphod: Well, lets go!
Rod: You all right?
Xaphod: Yah, sure. Just the excitement of new conquests.
Arnold Lint: Looked more like Flamers-syndrome to me.
Xaphod: You should talk, you  key-pounding half-wit.
Gillian: If we're going to go, lets go already.
Martin: Do we really have to?
Rod: YES!

(Just as the node starts on it's way, a host of flame-shaped vessels
became visible on the scanners)

Rod: Funny you should mention Flamers-syndrome.
Xaphod: Oh, hell!
Gillian: What are they?
Xaphod:	Damn, those are ships belonging the Flamers. They
	go after anything, no matter how pointless or
	unimportant it is. If they catch us, we could
	suffer permanent brain damage, or worse yet - join
	the Moral Majority

Arnold Lint: So this it it, we're all going to die!
Martin: I told you that you would like it.
Others: Oh Shut Up!

	******************** End Of Part 1 ********************

Will Arnold and his new travelling companions escape the Flamers? Or
will they end up playing rock albums backwards at 66.6 RPM? For the
answers to these, and countless other pointless questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel


[Part 2 will appear in tomorrow's digest. --Stuart]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 11-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #104
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, December 11, 1982 5:00PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #104
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 12 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 104

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Finney's TIME AND AGAIN
    Authors - Varley
    T.V.    - Star Trek "We the people"
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ sabers, clones
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 December 1982  01:27-EST
From: KWH at MIT-MC
Subject: Time travel

"Time and Again" is by Jack Finney and is definitely worth reading-- 
While definiitely not "hard" science fiction, it is a pleasure to 
read--

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 December 1982  09:34-EST
From: Chuck Weinstock <Weinstock at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Time and Again

Time and Again was not by the actor Albert Finney, it was by the
author Jack Finney who also wrote the Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 22:25-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: why I don't like Varley's TITAN/WIZARD

In reply to duntemann.wbsd@parc-maxc's comments:

I don't see anything specifically bad about Varley's TITAN and WIZARD,
but that's just the problem.  Neither is there anything spectacular or
innovative.  Many times have we encountered the "living world" theme 
within SF and here it is again with a tiresome revenge plot thrown in 
for good measure, not to mention an unrealistic and boring earth 
mother and the usual cast of zany alien creatures populating the 
landscape in Gaea.

When you compare these two books with his shorts and previous novel, 
the former pale in comparison.  In the latter there's stuff that just 
hadn't been done before to any great degree in SF: casting off of 
stereotypical sex roles (the real purposes behind the frequent 
sex-changes his characters undergo), disorienting non-Earth 
environments forced into an Earth-like mode and yet still retaining a 
hint of non-familiarity, odd combinations of symbiont and human 
bodies, extremely sensitive attention to characterizations even in the
face of clearly different moral and social values, frequent use of 
realistic first-person female viewpoints, and so forth.

Varley's shorts and first novel evoke a sort of pastoral simplicity 
within an enormously complex technological framework.  For example, I 
was half-way through my first Varley story a couple years ago before I
realized that I wasn't even on Earth!  The depressive atmosphere of 
immensely superior and indifferent Invaders having ousted Man from 
Earth somehow appeals to me.  It means that Man must put up with harsh
environments and yet try to recreate something resembling his imagined
home world.  In essence, it is the ultimate challenge to his ability 
of adapting to different environments, one which Varley clearly sees 
as being not beyond the capability of Man.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 December 1982  16:58-EST
From: MERMAN.STEVER at MIT-MC
Subject: "We the people..."


I don't believe that this argument is actually going on.  If only from
Saturday morning cartoons (remember those?  About the bill whose 
greatest ambition is to become a law?  Conjunction junction?  There 
was one called "We the people..."), I would think everyone would 
recognize:
  "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more
   perfect union, do ordain and establish this constitution..."

If the quote is to be believed, it's from the preamble of the 
Constitution of the United States.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 0:54:07-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!microsof!jerryd at Ucb-C70
Subject: Stardates in ST

I recently spent some time wading through some old junk to dig out
some material I ordered in my (much) younger days from Star Trek
Enterprises (or was it Lincoln Enterprises?).  Having read all of the
recent discussion about stardates on the net, I decided to look them
up in my copy of "The Star Trek Guide", Third Revision, dated April
17, 1967.  (I remember ordering it as "The Star Trek Writer's Guide,"
but that's not what it says on the cover.)

The Guide says that stardates were invented to avoid having to mention
ST's century, thus averting arguments about the state of technology in
that century.  Stardates were supposed to maintain a constant 
progression in one story, with each decimal point representing one 
tenth (surprise!) of a day.  It further says that the writer didn't 
have to worry about progression with other scripts, and that
"Stardates are a mathematical formula which varies depending on
location in the galaxy, velocity of travel, and other factors, [and]
can vary widely from episode to episode."

I hope this settles discussion on the subject; however, I do remember 
that one of the ST books ("World of Star Trek", I think) mentions that
the first stories were filmed with ascending stardates, but when they 
weren't broadcast in filming order, the above double-talk was 
invented.

------------------------------

From: Woods.pa @ PARC-MAXC
Date: 10-Dec-82  1:14:48 PST
Subject: Star Trek & Light Sabers

A few remarks on recent digests...

I'm glad somebody else thought to ask about Luke's light saber.  Those
two questions (did he lose his when he lost his hand, and where did
Vader get his if Luke's came from his father?) have been bothering me
ever since TESB first came out.  (Of course, the first question won't
bother me as long as Luke manages without it from now on -- hah! --
and the second won't bother me if Darth turns out not to be Luke's
father -- hah!)  Note that we don't actually see Luke with a saber in
the closing minutes of TESB; if he shows up with one in ROTJ, there'd
better be an explanation along with it!  (Don't you love empty
threats?)

Nice of Nathan to remember the Star Trek ratings from Stevenson Hall;
I was part of the "Bridge Crew" that concocted them, and I think I
even made the ratings (and accompanying plot synopses) available to
SFL a year or so ago.  There were in fact two 5-star (max rating)
shows, one being Tribbles and the other being A Piece of the Action.
I think this tells us something, e.g., it's easier to do good comedy
than good drama.  The basic plot of APotA was so far-fetched that the
show would have been considered lousy if done seriously, but as a
comedy it fits right in, and all the essential aspects of the plot are
at least given an attempt at justification.  Tribbles doesn't even
require that much suspension of disbelief; the plot holds together and
all the different subplots and running gags blend with each other very
well.

The City on the Edge of Forever, which many people have pointed to as
the best Trek ever, got "only" 4 1/2 stars on our 0-5 scale.  We all 
agree that it's an excellent show, but there's a basic flaw in the
plot, and in an essential element at that.  [SPOILER??]  The Guardian
is displaying Earth history, and Spock starts recording it at some
point.  Then McCoy goes through the portal, and history is changed,
and the "display" stops.  They get the Guardian to replay it, and Kirk
and Spock jump through.  Later, they look at the tricorder record to
compare "future" events on the two time-lines.  But HOW do they manage
to have a record of what the future is SUPPOSED to be, since McCoy
mucked it up before the Guardian got that far?  (It's also not clear
how they got the recording of the changed future, since they jumped
through before getting that far, but one can argue that they made the
recording and then jumped through on the third showing.)  Also, less
significantly, why couldn't they tell which recording was which?  Then
Spock would have known right away whether the "correct" future
required that Edith die, as soon as he saw her obituary.  There is a
final objection, namely that it seems odd that the events displayed by
the Guardian should include such details as Edith's obituary, but one
can hand-wave that by noting that her death was an important "cusp" in
history.

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 19:57:56-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!honton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Darth Vader = Good Guy

  Its good to see that many people are taking my suggestion that Darth
is a good guy seriously.  However, I no longer believe in the clone
theory.

  There are two good reasons why it is colon (short for colonial.):

  First, the classic theme of independent, hardworking good guys being
threatened by the heavy evil central government makes good watching.

  Second, the two Star Wars films we have seen before, ( and previous 
films by Lucas,) are fantasy.  Not hard Science Fiction, but Fantasy.
Clones do not make good fantasy.  How do you explain this stuff to the
general population?

  Still, the turn around of Darth to a good guy, now that's fantasy!

                                        chas
                                          (..!decvax!cwruecmp!honton)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 17:32:50-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mhtsa!alice!wookie at Ucb-C70
Subject: Star Wars  clone wars

While I think it is interesting that everone is taking the ancient
wars as the colon (short for colonial) wars I just thought I would
point out that in the book they are clearly referred to as the "clone
wars".  I think therefore we had better confine our extrapolations to
that fact.

                                        Keith Bauer
                                        Bell Labs Murray Hill
                                        White Tiger Racing

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 at 1051-PST
Subject: Star Wars: Clones and such
From: chesley.tsca at SRI-TSC

        (1) Clones as we know them today (of course, anything is
possible in SF) don't spring up full-grown.  There is roughly a
generation of age between a person and his clone.  Luke could be a
clone.
        (2) We have a lot of father figures in SW, but a definite lack
of mothers.  Who was Luke's mother?  How did she die?  Did she?  Who
was the Princess's mother?  Ditto?  And, of course, are there any
mothers at all?
        (3) Are Jedi celibate?  Magicians and priests often are.  Is
this why they needed clones?  Is this why Luke and the Princess will
never get together?  (Side note: Han more follows the warrior model
than the magician model, and warriors are most definitely not
celibate.)
        (4) "The Clone Wars" is a very neutral phrase.  Was the war
against clones?  For them?  With them?  Started by them?  Etc.?
        (5) Maybe Han is the only non-clone in the known Universe,
which is why he's "Solo"... :-)

        --Harry...

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 18:03:26-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!harold (Harold Noyes) at Ucb-C70
Subject: LUKE'S *FAILURE* - (nf)

As a Star Wars fan, here's my two cents worth--

When Luke went into the cave for his TEST, the being he was fighting 
was *NOT* Darth Vader.  Remember that when he had defeated the being, 
the face mask dissolved, revealing an image of *LUKE SKYWALKER*!

Why is this significant?  Is it significant?  Both are good questions.

Two items which I would like to throw out for consideration:

First, could Luke's failure in the cave have been his attempt to 
destroy his *dark* half rather than subdue it?  The idea that the evil
side of a person is vital to his ability to be courageous, 
strong-willed, and a leader has been presented many times in sci-fi 
(remember Capt. Kirk when he was divided into good and bad 'clones' by
the transporter?).

This includes the idea that the reason that Luke did not need his 
weapons while in the cave was because the conflict between the good 
and bad is an internal struggle.  It is person subjugating one side by
practising and perfecting the other.  It is fought within the confines
of the 'soul'.

The second item for consideration......

How did Luke's Dark Side get in there?  Is that cave the source of all
evil in the Universe?  And, as the Master Jedi, is Yoda the only being
who can keep those forces in check.

All of the above are thoughts for your consideration and not 
necessarily the personal beliefs of the author, disclaimer, 
disclaimer, etc., etc.  **NO FLAMES PLEASE**

                                   Forever Yours in the Force,

                                   Harold

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 13:59:05-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Clone Wars in SW/ANH and SW/TESB

Lately there has been a lot of discussion about whether it is "clone 
wars" or "colon wars".  In both the book and the @i(official) script 
(as published in The Art of Star Wars), the spelling is "clone".  To 
me this would tend to indicate that that's how Lucas intended it.

                                Clayton Elwell
                                {usenet}!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 18:09:16-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!mjl at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Darth Vader = Good Guy

I'm afraid I still have one very good reason to believe it's "Clone
Wars" instead of the increasingly popular "Colon Wars".  In the
original novelization of Star Wars, the term "Clone Wars" is used
quite frequently.  Yes, I know novelizations are generally completely
different from the films on which they are based, and this one is no
exception.  But this one was written by George Lucas himself.  Sorry,
all you Colon fans...

                                        Matt Landau
                                        ...mhuxi!wjh12!mjl
                                        ...linus!wjh12!mjl
                                        ...genradbolton!wjh12!mjl

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 23:54:56-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!clp at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Darth Vader = Good Guy

Come on everyone... didn't Lucas say "...remember the CLONE wars..."
in that
 interview?!? This is a decidable debate...
                             Charles Perkins
                             ...mhuxi!wjh12!clp

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1982 (Saturday) 1732-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: Clones of Luke's father

The whole suggestion that Darth Vader and the senior Skywalker were
clones arose from an attempt to take seemingly contradictory
statements by Darth Vader and OB1 and make them consistent.  I saw the
movies again last night, and don't believe that it is possible.  Darth
says, when Luke says, "He (OB1) told me you killed him (Luke's dad)",
"No.  I am your father..."  He specifically says that what OB1 says is
incorrect (or what Luke says OB1 says, which is pretty accurate (OB1
says, "A young Jedi, Darth Vader, ... betrayed and killed your
father.")).  Therefore, one of them must be lying.  I personally think
it was OB1.

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Dec 1982 09:02:30-PST
From: RHEA::HARDY::GLASSER%Shasta at SU-Score
Subject: part 2

I stole the following from the USENET net.jokes newsgroup.  I thought
that SFL should see it.  I hope that the author does not mind.

				Daniel Glasser
				[USENET address ...!decvax!sultan!dag
				 no reliable ARPA address.]

From: decvax!sultan!decvax!genradbo!grkermit!markm
Newsgroups: net.jokes

					 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
					   Episode 2 - The Flamers


(The Infinity's scanners are showing the Flamer's ships approaching
fast.  Arnold Lint and Rod Perfect are franticly scurrying about.
Xaphod is trying to figure out how to fly the node, and Gillian is
fixing her makeup. Martin the android is off on a corner moping about
how he's too young to die.)

Xaphod:	This is the node Infinity, we are on a peaceful, although a
	bit mercenary, mission. Hold your fire.

(The commander of the Flamer's fleet appears on the screen. He
appears to be a normal human, except for a small silver halo stapled
to his head.)

Flamer:	I am Adolf Riteyus, commander of the Flaming Queen. You have
	violated Flaming space and must be blasted. You will be given
	a fair and drawn out hearing before you are found guilty.
Rod:	We didn't know this was Flaming space!
Adolf:	Ignorance is no excuse. Do you think that just
	because you don't know something you shouldn't be
	responsible for it? Why, if we didn't go around
	blasting people who thought they were innocent,
	there'd be no order. The whole power structure of
	the Net is based on the inalienable right to
	flame. He who flames the loudest and strongest
	will prevail, for he will have maintained purity
	of essence by not compromising his principles. It
	doesn't matter what one flames about, as long as
	one comes out a winner. Winning the argument for
	mandatory retroactive birth control is one of our
	greatest victories.  We Flamers always win because
	we never give up. No, things are either our way or
	they're WRONG.

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists the Flamers as one of the
most argumentative races in the Net. History shows that the Flamers
went to war over the right to keep and bear tongue depressors. They
also had a violent and bloody discussion over the morality of Odor
Eaters. The only time the Flamers can be easily beaten in combat is
on Sunday mornings when they all watch evangelist shows, or during
Ronco "Mr. Microphone" commercials (their symbol of worship).]

Gillian:	What should we do?
Xaphod:	How 'bout evasive actions?
Marvin:	It won't help.
Rod:	Oh shut up!
Rod:	OK, evasive action!
Adolf:	Where do you come from?
Xaphod:	Not from around here.
Adolf:	Where are you headed?
Rod:	Left.
Gillian:	That's telling him?
Adolf:	What is your favorite color?
Arnold Lint:	My what?
Adolf:	Your favorite color!
Rod:	White!
Adolf:	What is the maximum warp speed of a ladened Swaldrel?
Xaphod:	Denebian or Rigelian?
Adolf:	I don't know that . . . all right, enough evading, if you
	don't surrender in the next five seconds I'll blast you right
	out of existance.
Rod:	Well, now what.
Adolf:	Five!
Arnold Lint:	What's this button do?
Adolf:	Four!
Xaphod:	That's the Illogical Drive. It propels the node on power from
	hard drugs and acid rock. It's kind of dangerous though.
Adolf:	Three!
Arnold Lint:	Should we try it?
Adolf:	Two!
Rod:	Well, lets not . . . Four!
Adolf:	Four!
Arnold Lint:	So this is it, we're all going to die.
Adolf:	Three!
Martin:	I warned you about this trip.
Adolf:	Two!
Xaphod:	All right, all right, engage the Illogical Drive!
Adolf:	One!

(Arnold Lint engages the Illogical drive. Images of the movie "Easy
Rider" float across the view port. "In-a-gadda-da-vida" starts coming
across the radio. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts scrolling
"Wow man, what a trip!". The scanners show that the Flamers couldn't
handle the sudden flood of sensory excitation and burst their brains.
This only made their reactions a bit slower though as the Flamer's
brain is remarkably small. The Infinity, charged up with Liquid Super
Duetrillium, was able to make warp speed and turn the corner before
the Highway patrol picked them up on radar. This was fortunate for it
meant that they wouldn't be caught by Spiny Norman, the 45 foot blue
hedgehog that had been following them.)

Gillian:	We made it.
Rod:	Yah, where are we Martin.
Martin:	We're way out man.
Xaphod:	Oh, he's useless now - it'll take a while before he comes
	down.
Arnold Lint:	At least he isn't so gloOmy.
Martin:	Nooo body knows, the trouble I've see . . . have any of you
	ever contemplated the death of a grain of salt? 

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the life and
death of a grain of salt can have amazing importance in the course of
life on the Net.  On particular grain of salt (named Nigel) was
responsible for the overthrow of an entire government. Nigel gave his

                  . <- Nigel

life by falling into the barrel of a shotgun that was aimed that the
planets dictator. Thanks to lousy marksmanship on the part of the
rebels, only Nigel was able to hit the dictator. The rest of the buck
shot killed the dictator's pet salmon, Eric.  Nigel, however,
penetrated the dictators eye and eventually killed him 8 months later
just before a firing squad cut the dictator in two.]

Rod:	Shut Up!
Xaphod:	Well, lets get back on course.
Arnold Lint:	What are those?

(The scanners now show a dozen ships shaped like the number one
heading toward the Infinity.)

Xaphod:	Those are Singularan ships. They're worse than flamers!  
Rod: Oh yeah, they're worse than a visit from an insurance salesman. 
Gillian:They're normally mild mannered computer scientists. But
	when they get on the Net, they become endowed with a superhuman
	ability to talk about incredibly personal things, things they
	couldn't otherwise discuss. 
Arnold Lint:	Sounds awful.
Martin:	That's what I keep telling you.
Rod:	Shut up!
Xaphod:	If we don't get out of here fast, we'll end up
	debating which finger a divorced person should
	wear his or her ring on when going to homosexual
	orgies - or worse, have to go to a Pot Luck Dinner
	where all that the people do is talk.

	******************** End Of Part 2 ********************

Will the crew of the infinity avoid the clutches of the Singularans?
Or will they end up exchanging recipes for onion dip. For the answers
to these and several other amazingly unimportant questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel.


------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 14-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #105
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1982 11:14PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #105
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Dec 1982    Volume 6 : Issue 105

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Cherryh's WAVE WITHOUT A SHORE, Robinson's STARDANCE
	      Adams' LIFE, THE UNIVERSE, AND EVERYTHING
    T.V.    - Star Trek The City on the Edge of Forever
    Movies  - Fantastic Voyage, Star Trek, SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday,  9 Dec 1982 23:12-PST
Subject: reality as perception
From: Tim Mann <mann%Diablo at SU-Score>


Another book about reality as the perception of the observer is "Wave
Without a Shore," by C. J. Cherryh, which I believe was mentioned here
some months ago.

        --Tim Mann

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 10:56 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #100

Regarding Stewart Rubenstein's comment on "Stardance".

I thought the novel was excellent, with real insight as to the
feelings and so-forth of characters involved in such a situation.
However, I thought the whole thing became very contrived, pat and
simple from the point where the aliens make their entrance.  Just too
many coincidences for good story--too much like the sort of
happen-stance I gripe about in Heinlein in his recent senile stages.

The last was a real let-down as I thought the rest of the novel was
among the best I have ever read.  I am a Robinson addict as well, and
would expect something more consistent.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 16:25:42-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage

Well, one thing that Fantastic Voyage never dealt with was that they
injected a shrunken 60 gallon drum of water into the guy with the
double shrunk submarine.

I'm not sure what would happen, but when that water expanded, boy
would he have to go to the bathroom something fierce!

Brad |-)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 11:05:28-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: re THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER

   Ellison's original script for this can be found in SIX SCIENCE
FICTION PLAYS, one of the few worthwhile anthologies by Roger Elwood.
It \is/ a good deal better than what finally came out; it may be too
long (though I would think Ellison had enough experience by then that
he wouldn't have made that mistake) and definitely would have run way
over budget (e.g. a long valley full of huge talking statues).

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 11 December 1982  13:20-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: STWOK and inconsistancies

    Date: Thursday, 9 December 1982 16:11-EST
    From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ at USC-ISIF>
    To:  SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:  STWOK and inconsistancies

    In catching up on old messages, I came across a message about an
    inconsistancy in Star Trek II.  The message stated that the date
on
    the bottle of Ale said 2283, yet the start of the movie clearly
says
    "In the 23rd century."

    I suprised no one caught this, but 2283 IS IN the 23rd Century,
just
    as it is now 1982, but the 20th century!

No problem here... It's just that if the ale is dated 2283, it can't 
be all that old if it is still the 23rd century.

------------------------------

Date: 10-Dec-82 15:58:20 PST (Friday)
From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Star Date 2283

To Alan Katz: it was clear from the original message that the
submitter knew that 2283 is in the 23rd century.  The message said
something about Kirk's expression/comments being indicative of
appreciating a RARE OLD bottle of Brandy (or some other kind of aged
spirit), not a product aged less than 17 years.  This can be explained
either by the relativistic effects, by Romulan Brandy (or whatever it
was) being fast-aging, or as an inconsequential bug in a movie which
can't be expected to be totally consistent.  It is NOT due to someone
thinking that 2283 was in the 22nd century.

--Teri

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 0241-EST
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: Whew!

I just slogged through about a month and a half of back SFL, so please
bear with any out-of-date comments.  The following is very random:

I was surprised to notice, back in the big SF rock discussion, that no
one mentioned Judas Priest.  Okay, so some of us *don't* listen to 
high-decibel heavy metal all the time.  Anyhow, some of their titles 
include ''Invader'', something about attacking aliens; ''Metal Gods'',
about a time when machines run everything including the human race,
and ''Solar Angels''.  I could probably dig up more if I pawed through
my collection at home.

~=''The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi''?  *Which* Skywalker?
Okay, so here's another idea:  Life was often boring on Luke's home 
planet, so the inhabitants might have sought out each other for
entertainment.  A couple of days before the Empire shows up, Luke
could have been at a helluva party.  So the ''Other'' may indeed be
*his* son??  The Force seems to have some hereditary aspects.....

I submit that the @= symbol, besides indicating nuclear topics, could 
indicate a very *large* candle, or megaflame.

Gee, if Lucasflicks got their vax on some network or other, think what
would we would see on SFL.  ''From: spielberg.dagobah@udel-relay''?

_H*

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 01:32:51-EST
From: Ed-Tecot-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A
Subject: SW : Rampid Speculation

1)  Assuming that every Jedi has a light sabre, all Darth Vader would
    have to do was to kill one in order to replace the one he lost
    to his good side

2)  The names in SW seem to be a bit symbolic:
    Sky Walker
    Solo
    Darth Vader (Dark Father?)
    Maybe some of the others can be interpreted also:
        Princess Leia
        Boba Fett
        Tarkin
        Also--does Jedi translate?

3) Not only does SW cross with Alice in Wonderland, but also consider
   C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia".  The "other" could be the
   Lion, with Luke, Han, Luke, and Chewie comprising the party of
   four.


                                                -emt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 82 14:21:08-PST (Wed)
From: teklabs!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70
Subject: Vader death count


   Here's a question for you SW/SW-TESB/ROTJ fans... how many people 
in either of the first two movies did Darth Vader actually kill by his
own hand? Recall that it was Tarken, not Vader who wasted the planet.
   I recall only seeing him choke the commander of Leia's ship plus 
laser blasting a couple x-wings in the trench of Death Star, not to 
mention alleviating Obi-wan of his material body.
   Did we see him kill anyone in TESB? Couple of his own commanders?  
Maybe he isn't as bad as we think?  Hell, after all, Luke killed
*everybody* in the battle station (death star) by *his own hand*, so
he really isn't as good as we want him to be.

------------------------------

Date: 10-Dec-82 00:11-PST
From: DAUL at OFFICE
Subject: RotJ RFI

I have a request for information.  Does anyone know roughly when they 
(the un-specific "they") will start selling tickets for the first 
day's showing of RotJ?  I realize that the readership is from all over
the country, but I just want general information (if anyone knew about
the SF bay area in particular I would be mighty beholden!)  Thanks,
--Bi<<<

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 8:51:12-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: No, there is another.

I disagree with some of Alexis Layton's opinions.  (1) When Luke
decided to jump off the ... thing, I think he felt that Vader was
getting the best of him, and if he didn't get away from that guy soon,
he would be sucked into the dark side of the force; if he had regained
his composure, perhaps he would not have had to jump (althought
perhaps Vader would have killed him).  Also, I think that Luke often
cried out Ben's name to keep from thinking about "Poppa Darth", and
again, being sucked into the dark side . (Oops!  I should have said
"(2)" there!)

                                        Jim@Ra-cha-cha

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 10 Dec 1982 09:50-PST
Subject: More Jedi Stuff
From: urban at RAND-UNIX

   I recently attended the LucasFilms RotJ dog-and-pony show at 
LosCon, which was by all accounts nearly identical to the presentation
at ChiCon (which I managed to miss).  Some of the stuff hasn't been 
mentioned in SFL and might affect people's speculations.  The studio 
has been really good about NOT generating serious spoilers, though.
   There is at least one other planetfall besides Tatooine and
Dagobah, which is the moon of Endor (a very Tolkien name!); this was
shot in the redwood country of northern California.
   Luke is seen (dressed in black) fighting Darth Vader in an as-yet- 
unenhanced light-sabre duel.  "Where did Luke get his light-sabre?"  
"He makes it".
   Luke is seen in an elevator with Darth Vader.  The elevator is
flanked by Royal Shakespeare Company actors in red robes (very
striking against the usual imperial black-and-white sets).  We are
told that these are the Emperor's guards.  "Do we see the Emperor in
this film?"  "Yes."
   There are indeed new characters in this film, including Admiral 
Ackbar (available as a bonus from Kenner Toys just like Boba Fett was 
"pre-released" as a toy before Empire came out).  One of these is a
woman, named (spelling wrong?) Mom Montha.  To show you how the fan
mind works, there was a Mom Montha in the ChiCon Masquerade.  That's
FAST work!  "Do we find out who the 'other' is?"  "Yes."  (strongly
implies that "another" is indeed a 'who' and not a 'what').
   At Westercon, the following non-answer was given: "Is Darth Vader
Luke's father?"  "At LucasFilms, we almost always tell the truth."
   At every presentation, the LucasFilms rep was VERY careful to point
out that Obi-Wan will look translucent in the finished film, 
regardless of how the principal photography looks.  "He's still dead, 
or in heaven or wherever Jedi go when they die".

DISCLAIMER: All these quotes are from memory.

        Mike

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 1982 2303-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Light Sabers and caves

The object falling past Luke was indeed his hand still holding the 
light saber (at least so far as I remember).  Since the force is a 
property of all things, not just life, I don't think Luke's mechanical
hand will have any effect.

As for the cave, I suspect that Luke was supposed to go in there 
unarmed, and defeat the apparitions that came against him through the 
use of his own inner strength, not by gross physical means.  Thus, his
use of a light-saber would indicate a failure on his part because it 
would show that he lacks confidence in his own inner power.  Remember,
the cave seems to show each person his own secret fears, which can 
only be beaten by one's own strength of will, not by outside means.  
As Salvor Hardin once said, "Violence is the last refuge of the 
incompetent."  Certainly, the Jedi Knights seem to feel the same way.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 11:47:44-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!orion!lime!we13!otuxa!nwuxc!inuxc!inuxd
From: !arlan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Vader death count

Looks like the Vader/Tarkin partnership is only slightly ahead in the
mass- murder standings, with Mao Tse-Tung socialism next, then
Stalin/socialism, followed by Nazi/Socialism, then Alfred Nobel...  
arlan andrews, abi/btl,indy

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 12:50:23-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Ucb-C70
Subject: Leia as the other?

        I never liked the pretentious, vain, haughty princess who
seems to toss her brain out the window whenever the going gets tough.
I dont care how loyal to the cause and brave she is --- i think that
she is also obnoxious. Granted, Luke and Han can act like jerks at
times, but at least they appear to be thinking and trying things --
not complaining, criticising and acting like a piece of delicate
dresden china.  Leia the other??  Oh i hope not!  My money is on
Chewbacca...


                                        Laura Creighton
                                        decvax!utzoo!laura

(after all, what's a little inter-species prejudice compared with rank
 xenophobia?  How come all the big shots are human?)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 82 3:48-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Adams book

n559  0315  12 Dec 82
BC-ADAMS-12-12
    A BOOK REVIEW
    By Christina Robb
    (c) 1982 Boston Globe (Field News Service)

    LIFE, THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING, by Douglas Adams. Harmony. 227
pp. $9.95.

    (Christina Robb is Boston Globe staff writer.)

    I hope somebody figures out a way to make movies out of Douglas
Adams' three funny books about Arthur Dent loose in the unvierse. It
will be hard, because an awful lot of what's funny is Adams'
impeccable narrative sense of when to pun and when to run.
    There's a scene between a mattress and a robot in ''Life, the
Universe and Everything,'' the third and, we are told, final novel
about Adams' mild-mannered English hero and his mind-boggling
adventures in space, time and restaurants. The mattress-robot scene,
which is set in a swamp on the far side of a far galaxy, contains a
digression about intergalactic dictionaries and the dialects of
mattresses that would never make it into a screen adaption. The
30-year-old Englishman is such a word wizard that you've probably
just got to read his books to get it all, but it sure is embarrassing
to be riding along to work in the morning on the train or in your car
pool, holding this little blue book in your lap and laughing your
head off. At least in a movie theater everybody would be laughing
with you instead of staring at you.
    Arthur Dent was minding his own business, trying to prevent a
bulldozer from knocking his house down one morning in England's green
and pleasant land sometime during the '80s, when a casual
acquaintance informed him that the world was about to come to an end
and he would help him off. Dent and this acquaintance, a humanoid
mongrel from Betelgeuse called Ford Prefect, got off the planet, out
of the century and into even more trouble through the entire universe
and across a span of approximately 10 billion years.
    With their two-headed friend, Zaphod Beeblebrox, and his Earthling
friend, Trillian, they laughed, cried, drank, ate and very often,
startled themselves through the action of ''The Hitchhiker's Guide to
the Galaxy'' and ''The Restaurant at the End of the Universe,'' the
first two novels in this trilogy.
    Now, in ''Life, the Universe and Everything,'' they are joined by
Slartibartfast, the Merlin of their company. With cameo appearances
in swamps and elsewhere by Marvin, the paranoid robot, they manage to
wrest the fate of the universe out of the hands of the gentle people
of Krikkit, who believe in ''peace, justice, mortality, culture,
sport, family life and the obliteration of all other life forms.''
    The Krikkiters really are a lovely lot. They sing carefree,
tuneful songs that could make a former Beatle even richer. Their only
drawback is that they are obsessed with destroying the universe, which
their foggy atmosphere prevented them from knowing was there for the
first several million years of their development. Yes, there is an
ironic echo of their dire obsession in the English Earthlings'
ridiculous game of cricket, and the final act of Krikkit's plot
against the universe is played out at Lord's, the London cricket
ground.
    Adams is not just funny. I don't think it's an accident that while
I was reading, I thought of the 1936 Olympics, and the South African
Springboks trying to play rugby around the world in 1982 while they
practice apartheid at home. But he is always funny, never preachy,
very smart, and even if he never adds another Arthur Dent book to this
universe, science fiction will never be the same.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 15-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #106
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1982 7:58AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #106
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Dec 1982    Volume 6 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:
    Themes  - shrinking, sex changes
    Books   - some to avoid
    Records - Dr. Demento
    T.V.    - Star Trek
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 15:17:07 EST  (Fri)
From: Craig Stanfill <craig.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Shrinking



The list of shrinking people seems to be quite complete, except for
the POOF gun in "Babes in Toyland."  Not quite Science Fiction, but
neither are many of the examples collected so far.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 9:06:36-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!yale-com!doehring at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Shrinking

It was the Gray Mouser that shrunk so that he could go into the
rat city, not Fafhrd, who was off with his 'ghoul' friend at the
time ( At least I think this is in Swords of Lankmar, it has been
a while since I read that one, ask me about the others though...).

                                    the martian
                                    decvax!yale-comix!doehring

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1982 0013-EST
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Books to avoid

I recently got Harry Harrison's "Planet of No Return" and Poul
Anderson's "Starship" in the "Jim Baen presents..." paperback
editions.  A warning:  if spelling errors bother you, avoid these two
books.  They are disasters.  I doubt that they ever went through a
proofreeding process at all.  Besides, Planet Of No Return is not even
a particularly good story; even if you don't mind spelling errors, you
probably mind cardboard characters miming their way through cardboard
situations.  I'd call it a bad juvenile at best.
                                        joe

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 17:40:48-EST (Sat)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Sex changes, Dr. Demento

On the subject of sex changes in SF, back in my dim teen years, a
magazine for the teenie-bopper set had a science-fiction writing
contest and as I recall Asimov and maybe Ellison were two of the
judges.  They and several other authors provided theme elements which
had to be woven into a decent story (there were several to chose
from).  One of the "must haves" was the idea of an alien being who was
female on Monday and Thursday, male on Tuesday and Friday and either
neutral gender or something totally weird the other days.  The winning
story had the alien visiting Earth as a student ambassodor living with
a girl and her family and of couse the girl falls in love and gets all
confused.  It's an interesting notion, anyway. Does any one else
recall this contest ?

For Dr. Demento fans - the good Doctor has just released another album
- "Demento's Mementos", available from Jem Records.  It includes such 
someday classics as "Swedish Western", "My Wife Left Town with a
Banana" and "I Get Weird".

lightly,

        jcpatilla

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 08:24:39 EST  (Sat)
From: John R Bane <bane.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke's mechanical hand

        I hereby predict that sometime during a climactic battle in
RotJ, Darth Vader will take control of Luke's mechanical hand and
attack him with it (shades of Dr. Strangelove!).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 1982 1608-CST
From: CS.TEMIN at UTEXAS-20
Subject: Luke's mechanical hand

In reference to Dick King's message -- Yoda says there is force
between all matter, animate and inanimate.  Thus Luke is able to lift
rocks and R2D2.  So the new hand shouldn't interfere with the force
(it may be stronger than the old hand, however....)

-aaron

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 12:46:28 EST  (Fri)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  RotJ

    From: CAIN@MIT-AI

    Why shouldn't Obi be corporeal? ROTJ chronolgically comes
    BEFORE Star Wars (or A New Hope, as you like), and thus has not
    yet been killed.

          Jonathan Levine

Nope. ``A New Hope'' is episode #4, ``The Empire Strikes Back'' is
episode #5 and ``Revenge of the Jedi'' is episode #6. The episodes
released after #6 are to be #'s 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 then 9.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 15:50:52-EST (Sat)
From: the soapbox of Gene Spafford <spaf.gatech@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke's Failure in the Cave

Well, if I apply a little deduction based on my knowledge of Zen and
what I've seen in the movies, I'd say that Luke failed in a couple of
ways.

Failure #1 was his taking his weapons into the cave with him.  A
proper Jedi would be one who realizes that the power comes from within
himself, and that mastery comes from using the Force (something 
associated with living matter) and not using some lifeless device.  A
number of the martial arts disdain the use of weapons for the same 
general reason.  If one believes in the Force, one does not need a 
weapon for you *are* the weapon.

Failure #2 was that Luke attacked first.  Again, most martial arts 
(the ones that are firmly rooted in Zen and not Westernized sport
versions) seem to stress defense rather than offense.  (If you've had
training in one of these, please don't engage me in a discussion of
"offense as defense" and so on, I know about it.)  Luke gave in to
anger and to fear and attacked.  In fact, the image of Darth was
symbolically a manifestation of Luke's fears of the evil place.

Failure #3 was that Luke failed to listen to Yoda.  Yoda said that he 
would not need weapons, but Luke did not listen.  When Yoda was 
reminding Luke of his "failure" in the cave, it was because Luke was
once again ignoring Yoda's advice.


I'm not sure how many philosophers are out there, but I'd like to
suggest that the "Force" is more derived from the Tao than from Zen.
It is something that one should follow, it guides from within and
without.  Perhaps even more significant, Luke is able to sense a
"wrongness" in the Force, and Yoda talks of strong evil.  No one
senses "good," however.  I would submit that straying from the Force
(Way, Tao) is a definite wrong, but following the proper way simply
results in a sort of null-state (natural state) that cannot be
detected.  That's why Luke doesn't detect Yoda as being the master
teacher, and why Darth would not notice a true master if he was
standing next to one (Bobba Fett?).  That's another reason why Yoda
says not to use the Force in anger --- someone using the Force can be
detected while someone not using it is "invisible."  Far better to let
your opponents underestimate you and then let their attack be their 
own undoing.

Think you that Vader or Luke really need light sabers?  Vader has
killed with the Force yet not touched his victims. Vader has also
flung large objects about with the force.  Luke has learned to move
himself and objects, and Yoda can move an entire spaceship.  Vader can
kill with the dark side of the Force because he causes panic and fear
in his victims and they feed the very force (Force) that kills them.
From a philosophical point of view, I'd bet that the climactic battle
does not have the Jedi/Luke/Other winning by their mastery of any
weapon.  Instead, Darth will defeat himself by making a mistake, or he
and the emperor will destroy each other in a excessive display of bad
vibes.


Now for a quiz:  1) Is there deep meaning hidden in the story or are
we creating
   profound interpretations from fluff?  2) Does anyone really doubt
that Good triumphs, Evil gets its
   justly earned defeat, and Lucasfilms makes another bundle?  3)
Darth Vader is really:
     a) Luke's father b) Luke's mother
     c) James Watt d) Judge Crater
     e) none of the above 4) The other hope is Bob Hope who is
entertaining the rebel troops
   when his ship is captured by Darth. Bob's jokes just slay Darth.  
5) Obi Wan got that first name growing up in Mayberry, RFD.
   (think about it) 6) Darth was going to lobotomize Han, but felt it
was beneath him.
   Even the great Vader would not stupe Solo.

Force sure, force sure, Gene

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 21:10:23-EST (Thu)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>


Today's Washington Post revealed that Lucasfilms may be changing the
name of the new movie to "The RETURN of the Jedi", since *somehow*
they got the idea that nice Jedis don't seek revenge. (there's a
Balrog in the woodpile, Goodgulf !)

A correction: Leibowitz may well be Yiddish, but Springsteen is Dutch
(and the Boss is Catholic, too).

remain in light,

        jcpatilla

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 15:13:26-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!cjp at Ucb-C70
Subject: Luke's failure / revenge

I have a feeling something is being missed, in reference to Luke's
failure in the cave.  Although the apparition Luke saw might have been
Luke's dark side, it might also have been a foreshadowing of a
confrontation to come.  Then, you ask, why does Luke see himself when
the mask comes off Vader's head?  Maybe because Vader really looks (or
looked, at the time Vader maybe visited the same cave) a lot like
Luke?  A clone or father perhaps?  This was my reaction anyway.  My
guess is that Luke also fails to become a Jedi, but by the same token
becomes the instrument of the Jedi's revenge (remember, "Jedi" can be
a *plural*).
        Charles J. Poirier (duke!mcnc!cjp)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 82 8:01:31-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ

Actually, RotJ will be episode 6 and will therefore take place after
TESB.  The next set of 3 will be episodes 1-3 and the final set will
be episodes 7-9.

                                John R Blaker
                                ...!harpo!fortune!wdl1!jrb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1982 0326-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: SW time frames

        Booze-Swatz.  ROTJ does NOT, repeat DOES NOT take place prior
to ANH and TESB.  It is the sequel to this second trilogy of
trilogies.

-HWM

P.S.
        Has anybody heard the rumor that I have, which is that Lucas
is ready to give up the rights to the serial after ROTJ is finished?

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 13:41:45-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!sytek!blk at Ucb-C70
Subject: How mysterious is the OTHER?

Seems to me that no one has mentioned one point I think significant" 
Remember the scene - Two of the universe's wisest beings are
discussing the future of their cause, and in five seconds the two
thoroughly disagree!  Whoever (or whatever - 'hope' may not be a
person) this OTHER may be, there is enough ambiguity that this may be
no hope at all!  Surely this rules out Leia and Han ... and probably
this mercenary, too.  In fact, any living good sort with the power is
an obvious hope; you don't need to be a Jedi Master to realize that!  
Because of all this, I say we have to look in shadows; either Darth or
an unborn child.  Only thing is, both of these possibilities make a
sloppy story line.  How about the hope being simply playing Darth
against the Emperor?  Too dull?
                        -brian

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 8:16:16-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!duke!unc!tim at Ucb-C70
Subject: No more others, please!

I realize that a lot of you really love the Star Wars movies, and that
your enthusiasm makes it difficult to avoid this incredibly prolonged
and pointless speculation on the content of the third movie.  
Nonetheless, there are some of us who are more than willing to wait, 
and resent the group being monopolized by this sort of discussion.  
(My 'n' key is beginning to wear out.) Unless you have something
really new to say, keep it to yourself, OK? Alternately, how about a
net.starwars group that the rest of us can ignore without having to
reject each individual article?
                                                        Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 11:48:59-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!yale-com!cutler at Ucb-C70
Subject: Clones and others

Clones in ROTJ?  Perhaps, but not in as global or sophisticated a way
as some people on this net have been suggesting.  Afterall, that's a
lot to explain in a two hour film that is supposed to be the finale of
a three part series that has a lot of questions to answer already.

                                        Ben Cutler
                                        decvax!yale-comix!cutler

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #107
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1982 3:49AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #107
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 16 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 107

Today's Topics:
    Books  - Vinge's "True Names" & Anderson's "The Saturn Game", 
	     Varley's TITAN/WIZARD, Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun",
	     J. Leiber's BEYOND REJECTION
    Themes - shrinking
    Humor  - ARPANET/MILNET split
    T.V.   - Star Trek tribbles
    Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ
    Fandom - best fanzine Hugo for SF-LOVERS?
    Misc   - intro to SF, music, SF attacked
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 82 11:28:30 EST  (Sun)
From: Mark Weiser <mark.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  True Names and The Saturn Game

The vital difference between True Names and The Saturn Game is that
the "computer generated world" in True Names WAS real.  It had merely
been translated into terms more easily dealt with by ground-dwelling
hairless tool-using apes.  The Saturn Game fantasy world was purely
fantasy, and I also found it difficult to believe it could have more
cognitive pull than the real surface of a new planet.  At worst both
should have been equally interesting, and human beings generally do
not have excessive difficulty switching from one self-contained world
to another, no matter how engaging.  (E.g. the intense self-contained
world of a football game to ballet or computer programming or rogue or
...)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1982 2048-EST
From: Joseph M. Newcomer <NEWCOMER at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Bookstores

I hope this will all go to some consolidated list somewhere...

A set that I go to:

Bakka, in Toronto.
	I hope it is still there; some years ago they had a
	good used-book collection, and a lot of
	British/Canadian SF not available in the U.S.

Mile-High Comics, two branches, one in Boulder, CO, one in Denver
	Good used selection, good used magazine collections,
	the Boulder store has (or had, the last time I was
	there) an SF art gallery.  I'm a bit annoyed with them,
	as they managed to reshelve a box of books I bought and
	had asked them to mail.  I lost a lot of good books in
	that deal (some I'd been looking for for years.  Sigh).

The Other Change of Hobbit, Berkley, CA.
	Good used book collection, art work, plus a lot of the latest books.

The Science Fiction Shop, in Greenwich Village, NYC.
	Not great, mostly new books, some used paperbacks, no
	used hardbacks, at least on my last trip a couple years
	ago.

There is a really great shop in a shopping mall in the
south of, or to the south of, San Diego.  I found them
in the Yellow Pages.  Somewhere, I've got the card of
the fellow who runs it.  He's really into SF, I spent a
couple pleasant afternoons there after a DECUS going
thru an extensive used-book collection.  Lots of new SF
as well.  I'll try to find the name, but if I don't, by
all means try to get to it.  Find it the same way I
did...look in ye olde Yellow Pages.

(The Yellow Pages technique is my standard method in an
unfamiliar city...  lots of SF bookstores list
themselves as such).

Moonstone BookCellars, Washington DC.  No used books,
lots of new books, about equally divided between SF an
mystery.  Owner is definitely into SF; I mostly go to
chat with the people there.  Haven't been there in a
couple years.

I also used the Yellow Pages hack in London; found a
great bookshop way in the north of London (requires
tube + bus) in a depressed-looking area, but lots of
good used British SF hardbacks.  Also, if in England
try all the remainder-type bookstores, if you have
time.  I bought books worth about 100 pounds (list
price) for about 15 pounds.

If you are into really bizarre bookstores, there is (probably still
is) a town full of bookstores in a little town called Hay-on-Wye in
Wales.  You end up taking a train from London to nearly the end of the
line, then taking a bus to the end of /its/ line, and then walking
about 1/2 mile.  But a lot of SF detritus shows up in the bookstores
there, including some galley proofs of SF books (with corrections
marked by the author or proofreader).  If you are into this sort of
thing, it might be worth the trip, if you are in London and have a
couple days to spare.  We thought it was great fun, and spent two
whole days poking in the "bookstores", which are more like warehouses
of books.  Sorted alphabetically by something.  We did linear search,
and found the oddest things next to each other, with no perceptible
rhyme or reason.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 16:01:35 EST  (Mon)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: tribbles, best fanzine, bookstores, etc.

1) Now, Kirk was getting all upset at the thought that Scotty
   beamed all those poor tribbles into the depths of space, and
   Scotty was indignant that Kirk would think him capable of
   something so cruel and inhumane. What makes them think
   the Klingons are going to treat the tribbles nicely? Methinks
   they got beamed into space anyway, if not actually tortured first.

2) I think only the last year of sf-lovers would have to be waded
   through for 'best fanzine' qualification. I'll vote for it!

3) A good bookstore in Washington, DC is Moonstones, somewhere
   near Dupont Circle, I think.

4) A friend of mine wrote this little snippet about entropy:

        Here's to entropy -
        things run downhill,
        and things fall apart
        and things always will.


[I advise against any attempt to get a Hugo for sf-lovers. It can
only do harm to broadcast ourselves. --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1982 1426-PST
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER@USC-ECLB>
Subject: misc.

Another unstructured message.

For those interested in the idea of sex change, et. al., a good 
selection to peruse might be BEYOND REJECTION by Lieber (Jr.), the son
(?) of THE Lieber. I know little about the book except that I have 
looked at it quickly in the bookstore, and read an excerpt in THE 
MIND'S I. This stuff is pretty bizarre, and is not exactly my thing, 
really.

Both Daniel Spear and Aaron Temin like the idea that Darth Vader was 
unleashed in the cave (the basic idea); it's possible, but let's not 
forget Darth's origin. Vader was horribly disfigured in some accident,
which is why we wears that breath mask (we got a glimpse of him in 
TESB, as you'll recall). My point is this: I think that in the vision 
of Luke fighting his evil side, Darth Vader was used as the embodiment
of that evil because the image was at hand, and it was something Luke 
could identify easily AS being evil. Does this make any sense?  If 
Vader did have a similar test, the embodiment of HIS evil side could 
have been anything else.

John

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 0112-EST
From: Nat Feldman <FELDMAN at NLM-MCS>
Subject: Science Fiction Book Stores

The address of Forbidden Planet-The Science Fiction and Comic Book
Shop is 821 Broadway corner of 12th Street, New York City,
212-473-1576.  They carry wide selection of current science fiction,
fantasy and horror books, videotapes of all the Prisoner episodes,
related albums (such as the HHGttG records), current and old comic
books, magazines, toys, and games, all at retail prices.  Across the
street is the Strand Book Store that sells used general books at half
price, and the Barnes & Noble book store and the Sale Annex are nearby
at 5th Avenue and 18th Street that sell allbooks, including a fair
science fiction collection at a minimum 10% discount.  Star Magic is
located at 743 Broadway, New York City, 212-228-7770, and is devoted
to all manner of items with a space theme.  Their books are mostly
non-fiction, and their records include many of those mentioned under
the space rock discussion.

As for Luke's missing(?) light saber:

     I'm certain that someone in the rebellion can resupply Luke with
this weapon if no other obvious source appears.  I would find it har
to believe that he retained the light saber.  It may be unfortunate
that he thus loses his father's legacy, but with his heavy breathing
dad this may not be sucha monumental loss.  At any rate I doubt the
sabers are particularly rare, but most people are probably more
comfortable using simple blasters.  Alternatively,the Empire may have
banned the weapon in its attempt to obliterate the Jedi.

     Nathaniel Feldman

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 82 20:19:22 EST  (Sun)
From: Chris Torek <chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Proposed ARPANET/MILNET Split

Do you suppose someone out there read Vernor Vinge's "True Names"?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1982 14:48 EST
From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: why I don't like Varley's TITAN/WIZARD

        "When you compare these two books with his shorts and previous
novel, the former pale in comparison."

Well I've heard of some strange comparisons, but aren't we getting a
bit personal here?  (Maybe it was too much bleach).

                        - Michel

[I think most people who have read everything Varley has published
and are devoted Varley followers would agree that he is much better
at short fiction than long fiction. But he's just beginning, so
there's hope.  --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 Dec 1982 10:04:59-PST
From: RHEA::HARDY::GLASSER%Shasta at SU-Score
Subject: Music (again), Intro to SF, Shrinking and other Misc.

Reply to: {ARPA} Daniel Glasser at HARDY c/o <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
          {uucp} ...!decvax!sultan!dag

Music:

In a comment on SF related music in SFL V6 #99, John Francis listed
the song "I'm the Urban Spaceman", by the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band {Yes,
that is their name} as being SF.  Though it has "Spaceman" in the
title, it is not SF.  However, the same group did do several SF songs,
most notably "Beautiful Zela from Galaxy IV".  This song was on the
album "The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhous" (Sunset SLS.50210 -
England).

I was listening to "The Book of Invasions -- A Celtic Symphony" (DJM -
DJLPA-10) by Horslips, and noted a bit of SF/Fantasy sounding lyrics
on the cuts "Trouble" ('High on the mountain stands a boat, but are
gods or real folk?') and "Sideways to the Sun" ('But you won't see us,
we've grown sideways to the sun.')  The album is, on the whole, very
good listening, and is based on a twelfth century chronicle of the
various pre-Christian colonisations of Ireland.

Shrinking:

I've read some stories which involve shrinking in some historical
collections of SF of the thirties and fourties.  The names of the
compilations and the names and authors of the stories escape me, all
of my SF collection is packed for moving.  When I unpack, I'll name
names, if nobody else has done so.  The one that sticks in my mind
(such as it is) concerns a scientist who discovers that atoms are
solar systems and shrinks himself for a visit to a civilized planet
which is one of the electrons (Taking the Bohr model too
literally...).  Another has a scientist growing a portion of a
speck-of-dust planet to our scale and having its flora and fauna run
amok on earth.

Intro To SF:

My first SF is unclear - The first I remember clearly was "Needle" by
Hal Clement.  The second was "Foundation and Empire" (Asimov) followed
by the two other books of the former trilogy.  Since then I've been an
addict.

Miscl:

Didn't ANYBODY else out there like "TITAN" or "WIZARD" by Varley?  I
did not think it was that bad.

                        Thanks for the disk space,
                                Daniel Glasser

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 17:16:25-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!utah-cs!utah-gr!thomas at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Wolfe"s The Book of the New Sun

I'm not sure I'd call it a "quest" story.  It might be, in a sense,
but Severian really doesn't know what he's looking for (if anything).
Maybe he's searching for the meaning of life, I'm not sure.

Among the things which make the series great for me are the language
and the wonderful description of a future/past world.  Wolfe manages
to evoke wondefully clear images of the fantastic world in which
Severian finds himself.  You can feel the tremendous weight of the
(mostly ignored, but everpresent) immense past history pressing down
upon the people of his time.  Everything has been done, forgotten,
rediscovered, and forgetten again.  The world is running down to an
end (or, as he seems to hope, a new beginning).  This background,
developed only implicitly in places, provides a rich backdrop for the
story.  The storyline in the first book seems a little thin, but only
because of the wealth of subplots it begins.  There are no extraneous
incidents recalled, no characters introduced as mere padding.  It is a
difficult book to read, the motives of the characters are frequently
hidden or inexplicable and the description of some events are
unexpectedly cut short.  You have to read every word, or you risk
missing something important.  But, then, real life is often this way,
also.  The "Book of the New Sun" is Severian's memoirs, and, although
he has perfect recall, he is still human, not omniscient, and can't
know everything.

I'm not sure I would classify it as "sword and sorcery", there is very
little sorcery, and what "sorcery" there is is really forgotten
science.  Severian certainly carries a sword, but members of the
Autarch's guard carry advanced energy weapons.  I'm not sure it's
classifiable as anything except "Speculative Fiction", and only that
because there is no other category which can hold it.  It is
definitely not the escapism that so much SF is - if you are to
understand the book on more than a superficial level, you must think
about it, be willing to ferret out that which is not said directly.

If you're not sure you will like it, borrow a copy from a friend, or
the library.  The first book is not the whole story, it was only
published as a multi-volume set because the publishing industry will
not put out a single book that long.  (Except for Michener, of
course.)  By all means, though, give it another chance.

=Spencer

------------------------------

Date: 15-Dec-82  0:06:21 PST (Wednesday)
From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF attacked in December Harper's magazine

The December issue of Harper's magazine, now on your newsstand,
contains a wide-ranging attack on science fiction.  The article,
entitled "Destination: Void", appears on page 64 of the magazine.  Its
author is Arnold Klein, identified as "a poet who used to write book
reviews and animal features for the Soho Weekly News".

While the article is far too long to reproduce here in full, I'll
leave you a few inflammatory excerpts in hopes that you'll read the
whole article and carry the argument into the pages of SF-LOVERS.  Any
typos are probably my own.  /Ron


Grownups are reluctant to take science fiction seriously, and with
good reason: sci-fi is a hormonal activity, not a literary one.  Its
traditional concerns are all pubescent.  Secondary sexual
characteristics are everywhere, disguised.  Aliens have tentacles.
Telepathy allows you to have sex without the nasty inconvenience of
touching.  Womblike spaceships provide balanced meals. No one ever has
to grow old--body parts are replaceable, like Job's daughters, and if
you're lucky you can become a robot.  As for the adult world, it's
simply not there; political systems tend to be naively authoritarian
(there are more lords in science fiction than on public television)
and are often ruled by young boys on quests.  The most popular sci-fi
book in recent years, Frank Herbert's DUNE, sold millions of copies by
combining all these themes: it ends with its adolescent hero
conquering the universe while straddling a giant worm.  . . .  Worlds
are destroyed in science fiction with rather disturbing nonchalance.
Joe Haldeman, for example, has no compunction about the planet
October, wiped out in passing, in his recent ALL MY SINS REMEMBERED,
for a small breach of interplanetary peace; C.  J. Cherryh's indigo
skinned Hunter of Worlds, pursuing an obscure point of alien
etiquette, is set to incinerate the planet Priamos out of pique; and
in the immensely popular RINGWORLD Larry Niven starts an explosion in
the galactic core in a way wholly collateral to the novel's main
action, which deals with the discover of a giant doughnut-shaped
world, and casually writes *finis* to the whole galaxy.  Worlds that
are allowed to face The Future in one piece are usually governed by
benevolent authoritarian regimes, or some similarly simpleminded
arrangement.  Thus in his many tales Cordwainer Smith, member in good
standing of the Science Fiction Hall of Fame (one of the many
self-honoring mechanisms of sci-fi, others being the Hugo, Nebula, and
Campbell awards), runs the universe with the Instrumentality, a gang
of subtle lords and ladies who partly recall the Vatican and partly
the State Department, where Smith was once employed. . . Less utopian
setups are run more modestly, by emporers and god-emporers, and the
out-and-out dystopias in sci-fi are usually set on a weary Earth
governed by moms and dads who are either too strict or too lax.  . . .
The painstaking depictions of the ramscoop hyperdrives that enable
some young idiot to visit the terra-formed moons of Jupiter are really
glorificaitons of hypercapitalism, without, of course, the
hurble-burble of ground rent and class struggle: there is no ATTACK OF
THE SPACE LANDLORDS or CO-OP 2250 A.D.! on the sci-fi shelves.  ("When
the alien Zetas first undertook to provide heat and hot water to a
rapidly cooling Earth, humanity was delighted...until the boilers
broke, and the Zetas wouldn't fix them!"  "It's buy or die in 2250
A.D., when one man owns all the living units on Earth...")  . . .
Sci-fi writers are the most pretentious idea mongers going, but their
ideas are *stupid*.  "Abstract design is all right--for wallpaper and
lineoleum.  But *art* is the process of evoking pity and terror," says
the smartest man in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, and Doris Lessing, who
has obviously caught the pomposity bug, confidently tells us that
there is "inherent in every creature of this Galaxy a need, an
imperative, towards a continual striving, or self-transcendence, of
purpose."  Imagine such moonshine in a regular novel!  . . .  Genetic
engineering is the special province of women sci-fi writers, who have
thus failed, rather spectacularly, to liberate the genre from its
adolescent concerns.  An interest in cloning pervades their work,
since cloning gives you babies without the bother of sex and
pregnancy.  . . .  Sci-fi only *seems* creative; in fact, it merely
"plays with fixities and definites," associating, combining, and
recombining the paltry elements of experience that already lie in
hand.  Literature recreates the common world and brings you into
closer contact with it...Sci-fi, on the other hand, is merest
daydreaming, and mechanically escapist daydreaming at that.  A
typically fraudulent method of "creating realities" in sci-fi is
magnification: the spaceship is a big car, the super- computer a giant
abacus, telepathy is extensive intuition, bilious dystopias are
aggravated parking tickets.  Or reverse the direction of something,
make time go backward, turn progress into regress, aging into
rejuvenation--or make hot into cold, scarcity into plenty, weakness
into strength...But you get the idea: science fiction is always
unoriginal, essentially so--an idle toying that is the very opposite
of the sustained attention required in real art.  The traditional
problem of defining science fiction thus boils away into nothing: it
cannot be defined aesthetically because it does not exist
aesthetically.  . . .  Sci-fi characters are necessarily
one-dimensional; since they live in unreal worlds, they cannot be
build up through observation or tested against experience....Far from
being dangerous and daring, as its enthusiasts constantly exclaim, it
is essentially *boring*, since no one cares, or can care, about the
joys or sorrows of beings on Pterapsis IV or Terebratula VII....  . .
.  Why read science fiction?  Well, if you are suffering from an
impacted molar or a broken heart, sci-fi will help you to oblivion,
since reading it is as close to being dead as you can get.  But even
so, sci-fi has its throbs of vexation.  There is, for example, the
disgusting worship of science, pervading even those books that attack
it.  The first artists who wrote about science hated it--they thought
it presumptuous, unnatural, cruel, and sick.  Contemporary sci-fi has
abandoned this tradition of Hawthorne and Shelley and gone whole-hog
for modernist ambivalence or pulp paraphernalia....

[This guy sounds like he either
  1) has a grudge against a SF publisher who refused to
     publish one of his books or
  2) has been reading too much of the "quack Viennese doctor",
     as Nabokov so aptly described Freud.
It would be amusing to see Ellison tear this guy to shreds.

	--Stuart]


------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #108
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1982 9:01PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #108
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 108

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Finney/Simak's TIME AND AGAIN, Martin's FEVRE DREAM
    Query   - Mog will not remove a curse
    Misc    - filking, laser disc and SF
    T.V.    - Star Trek's City on the Edge of Forever and original
	      script, Dr. Who
    Movies  - Fantastic Voyage, SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 82 16:01:26-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdS.nelson at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: Time and Again

"Time and Again" by Jack Finney? Could be, but it is also the title of
a book by Clifford Simak, originally published as "First He Died" in
the mid 50's. An intricate plot with Galactic empire, time travellers,
space explorers, androids, and robots.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 0515-EST
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: Fevre Dream

This is the latest novel by George R.R. Martin, currently available in
hb.  It deals with the adventures of a Mississippi River Captain in
the mid-1800s and his partner in creating the gloriest and fastest
steamer on the river.  The partner, Joshua York, has other purposes
though.  The book is an interesting study of a scientificly rational
vampire species, and what shapes it would take.  Also, it is not as
depressing as some other Martin books such as Dying of the Light
(don't get me wrong, it's a good book but i wouldn't want to read it
when i felt down).  All in all, i reccommend it.

tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 82 2:13:20-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!rb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Mog will not remove a curse

      "Mog does not remove a curse
       'till better triumphs over worst,
       'till bad to good has been reversed,
       and out of error good has burst."

   Does this ring a bell?  DOES ANYBODY KNOW THE NAME OF THE BOOK it's
from?

   It's a kid's book, about some kid who gets wings.  The plot is more
or less as follows:

 A kid lives with his mother in the boarding house which she runs.
 His father was a great magician, but is dead now.
 The kid rescues a funny little traveling salesman's briefcase.
 The traveling salesman is thankful, and gives the kid a potion which,
   when rubbed into his shoulders, with the proper incantation, gives
   him wings.
 The kid flys around at night (no one is allowed to find out), having
   a ball, and doing various good deeds.
 Everything works out wonderfully in the end, with the traveling
 salesman getting restored to his former self, the mean old lady next
 door becoming a saint, etc.

     The book was one of my favorites for a long time.  Now my copy is
gone, and I can't remember the title or the author.  Anybody out there
know?

     Please help, i'm losing my mind.

                                     -- Ronen Barzel
                                        (Please respond by mail)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 21:44:18-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!mjl at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: What is a Filk?

Filk: short for FilkSing, a particular form of obsession found
typically at S.F. conventions, where large groups of people will
gather to sing (each in his or her own key, of course) original and
not-so-original songs, to original and not-so-original tunes, of a scn
F&SF nature. Generally conceded to be one of the high points of SF
conventions, at least by those who participate.

This has been a public service announcement...

------------------------------

Date: 12-Dec-82 17:35:26 PST (Sunday)
From: SJohnson.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: City on the Edge ...

If you'd like to see what Ellison's original script looked like, it's
in "Six Science Fiction Plays", ed Roger Elwood (Pocket Books, 1976,
paper). There's a special intro by Ellison in which he describes the
changes made, and (in his own, inimitable way) his feelings about it.

-- Swen

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 15:17:34-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!gba at Ucb-C70
Subject: Dr. Who

I would appreciate help in finding where Dr. Who items such as a hat
and scarf can be purchased in the Chicago area.  Please reply by
direct mail.  Thanks.

George Adams pur-ee!gba

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 9:09:05-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!fred at Ucb-C70
Subject: Laser Disc and SF


        This may be a false impression but after viewing Laser Video
Discs of Star Wars and The Wrath of Khan I am convinced that viewing
movies with the Lasers Discs is better than seeing them at the 
theater. I have seen Star Wars 20 some times at the theaters and the
first time I saw it on disc I heard things that I never heard before.
It is also good for convincing friends about really happened in a
movie, for instance Obwan kills two people and slices the hand off a
third in the bar scene. Has anyone else viewed these discs with
differing opinions?

                                Fred BTL/ABI INDY

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 19:48:30-PST (Mon)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxt!3133rvh at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage

f I remember correctly, the movie had the sub reduced in two stages.
After the first stage the sub was put in a LARGE hypodermic filled
with water.  The hypo was then reduced to "normal" size and the sub
was injected.  The movie never explained what happened to all that
half reduced watter - did the book explain this?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1982 0339-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Why DV is taller then Obi Wan

        Remember that Darth Vader is in a quasi life support suit.  
That might account for the apparent difference in height...
-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 22:23:31-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!mjl at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: tesb: cave scene failure? - (nf)

In the cave on Degobah (sp?), Luke was facing his own "dark side" and
potential to be corrupted, as Vader was.  Note that he reacted in
anger, and HE drew his weapon first, not the shadow-Vader.  Luke also
took the first swing -- he didn't need his weapons because the Jedi
doesn't react by attacking -- he was SUPPOSED to be passive in facing
the situation.  (Remember, the real Vader later tells Luke "Release
your anger.  Only your hatred can destory me."  Of course, this is 
exactly the opposite of the truth, and Vader is just trying to make
Luke that much more susceptible to the Dark Side, so that he can be
'turned' for the Emperor.)  One nice note -- when the mask explodes,
we see Luke's face inside.  This seems to me like a nice metaphor for
(1) Luke's potential for corruption, an and (2) the fact that Vader
really IS Luke's father (well, a clone thereof), who was similarly
corrupted.  Like father, like son, is the implied message.

                                        Matt Landau
                                        ...mhuxi!wjh12!mjl
                                        ...linus!wjh12!mjl
                                        . ..genradbolton!wjh12!mjl

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 1982 (Sunday) 1134-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: SW Fathers -- Rebuttal to myself

Inspired by another letter in the current digest, I must offer an
alternate explanation for the Darth/OB1 controversy.  One limitation,
imposed by our biological structure, granted, we are imposing on this
discussion is the idea that a person has only one father.  There is
never any mention of Luke's mother (or, as was mentioned, anyone
else's father).  What if it becomes conventional to refer to the
person one is cloned from as his father.  Then we get this scenario.
        Luke's "father" (the one OB1 refers to, and who is Uncle
Owen's brother) was a contemporary of OB1, who is old enough to be
Luke's grandfather.  He was cloned to produce Darth Vader, referred to
by OB1 as a "young Jedi".  Darth was then cloned to produce Luke.
Which is effectively the same as being cloned by the first (a clone of
a clone is a clone -- the gene pool is identical).  So OB1 likes to
think of the first, his friend, and one with identical gene makeup, as
Luke's father.  And in fact it is possible that Owen and OB1 don't
know that Luke actually came from Darth instead.  So OB1 knows that
Darth killed the man he thinks of as Luke's father.  And Darth knows
that, although he killed that man, he is in fact Luke's father.
        How's that sound?

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1982 0944-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Word origins in "Star Wars"


I believe that "Jedi" comes from the Arabic for a holy warrior,
someone who has embarked on a holy war or "jehad". Frank Herbert uses
a similar word in DUNE refering to the fighters in the religious
crusade against thinking machines.

As for Obi-wan Kenobe's name, I do not feel that OB1 is appropriate.
An "obi" is "a broad sash worn with a Japanese kimono." Obi-wan is
clearly a title of respect, probably meant by Lucas to add the
mistique of the Samurai to that of the Moslem holy warrior.

Perhaps Lucas will get Toshiro Mifune for a wise old Jedi in one of 
the upcoming films...[Will someone pass along the hint?]

--dave lewin

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 82 16:37:25-PST (Fri)
From: CAD.moore at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: re: test: cave scene failure? - (nf)

#R:rocheste:-30400:ucbcad:17600003:000:698
ucbcad!moore    Dec 10 16:37:00 1982


    "Perhaps Luke was expected to let the Vader-image slash him the
    same way Obiwan let Vader participate in his dis-corporation."


But wait, a very important fact should be noted here. In the two
battles Luke had with Vader, both real and imagined, Luke drew
his weapon first. In the cave, the Vader figure made no threat
except by his presence. Luke failed his test by reacting with
violence. As a side note, notice that Obi-Wan drew last both
against Vader and in the cantina.

    Also, as a piece of trivia, does anyone remember the one and
only one time we see writing (and in english, yet!) in SW1?

                Peter Moore

        ...!ucbvax!ucbcad!moore (USENET)
        ucbcad.moore@berkeley   (ARPANET)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 1982 17:24-EST
From: David.Anderson at CMU-CS-G at CMU-CS-A
Subject: Rendezvous on Tatouine

Any speculation as to why our heros are going to rendezvous on
Tatouine in RotJ?  I'm wondering if Luke hopes to learn something by
examining the things that Ob1 left behind.

                                        David

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 19:06:58-PST (Mon)
From: Try at UCI
Subject: Star Wars Questions

        Questions! We have questions!  With May 1983 getting closer
all the time, speculation is running rampant about every detail of
RotJ.  Well, as a relative new-comer to sflovers I've got a couple of
STAR WARS questions and I was wondering if someone outthere on the
network could help me out.
        An interview with Mark Hamill in the Nov. 82 Bantha Tracks
begins with a description of a scene shot a Elstree studios last
January.  It mentions "the mime artists troupe who articulate the Mon
Calimari".  Can anyone tell me what a (the) Mon Calimari is(are)?
        Also mentioned in the same issue of BT is a RotJ exhibit that 
appearred at Chicon IV last summer.  Did anyone go to the Worldcon and
see this exhibit?  If so, can you give the rest of us some insight?
(This may have already been discussed,if so I missed it.)
        In closing, I offer a whole new area of STAR WARS speculation.
We have all been operating in a sort of "can't see the forest for the
trees" mode, speculationg on the identity of the other, etc.  We know
that RotJ wraps up the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, and we know that
Lucas and Co.  will then jump back to the Clone Wars for SW I, II and
III.  Anyone care to speculate (seriously or frivolously) what
episodes VII, VIII and IX are going to be about?

                                        Thanx,

                                        Tom Johnson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 13:39:00-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70
Subject: re: Darth Vader and Luke

If we're going to give way to wild speculation how about this?  Luke
isn't a clone at all, but has two natural parents.  Proposition:
Suppose that you can't hide ancestry through the force, but you can
hide your sex (especially if your Jedi enough).  This leading to...  
Tatata ta de da......  Darth Vader is really Luke's mother.

Wipe that look of confusion off your face!!!!!! and read on.

Plot to the first trilogy runs something like this:  Young not so hot
looking (in fact almost masculine) female Jedi trainee gets knocked up
by young hunk type male trainee and leaves the Jedi in disgrace when
young male refuses to marry her and the rest taunt her about her
predicament and possibly even looks.  She has the child and leaves him
to be raised by her sister or brother (or whoever Luke's Uncle and
Aunt were).  Her brooding leads her to the dark side of the force and 
this leads her to vow revenge on Skywalker and the rest for her
disgrace.  Eventually during her revenge she comes up against her old
teacher and the father of her child.  She avenges her disgrace at
Skywalker's hands only to be thrown into the volcano or whatever by
OB1.  Surviving but badly hurt she is repaired using modern military
equipment (how many females have you seen in battle dress) including a
voice synthesizer thing which is male.  Realizing the power her 
appearance now commands she converts to being a male and continues her
revenge (Clone or Colon Wars etc.).  Afterwards few remember her
original sex and everybody assumes she is male.  When she and Luke
finally meet she just normally concels the fact that she is female,
but can't concel the genetic tie. Luke assuming she is a male just
doesn't check to closely and realizes his kinship, but not her sex.  
Boy! doesn't this explain lots of things like Darth's mood changes,
why she doesn't talk back to Boba Fett (they both being horrible
mutilated are now lovers since only they can stand to see each other
nude), the beauty parlor thing Vader sat in just before talking to the
emperor and why her light saber is a different color.


                                Just out of the Top of my Head,
                                        Tom Harris

                                or is it just out of my head?
                                Oh well, see ya at the funny farm.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 13:06:42-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW twenty times

I've got to have my eyes checked -- I could swear I just saw an 
article that said someone saw Star Wars TWENTY times!!!!!!!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 9:16:27-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Luke"s Failure in the Cave

Some nice ideas, except re. weapons.  Don't forget that the light
sabres are not ordinary weapons.  They get their power from the Force
itself.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 17:22:08-PST (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!hpda2!gk (Gregg B. Kellogg) at Ucb-C70
Subject: Vader as father to Luke S.



    An interesting note prompted from the heated discussion on the
    "Other."

    If Darth Vader (D.V.) translates to Dark Father, does this
    imply the existance of a Light Father (L.V.)? This would fit in
    with Lucas' naming conventions.  If this were the case, then
    D.V could be the clone of L.V. or L.V. the clone of D.V.,
    either way they are both Luke's father (genetically speaking).
    Luke could still have a "Light Father" alive out there some
    place.  I wonder who he could be?

        Gregg Kellogg

        ..!ucbvax!hpda!gk

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 0:41:43-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!duke!unc!mcnc!cjp at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Luke"s Failure in the Cave

I don't recall the movie saying that light sabres are powered by the
Force, although was left with that vague impression.  However, I later
read (in either one of the Star Wars books or the comic book) a scene 
in which Luke uses the power pack from someone's unused blaster to 
recharge his light sabre.  Perhaps the Force is a component of the 
light sabre's "light", I don't know; but apparently not a power
source.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 1102-EST
From: Roger H. Goun <VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Luke's mechanical hand

          I hereby predict that sometime during a climactic battle in
    RotJ, Darth Vader will take control of Luke's mechanical hand and
    attack him with it (shades of Dr. Strangelove!).

I hereby predict that Darth Vader will learn the prefix code to Luke's
mechanical hand and use it to lower Luke's defenses against the dark
side.

                                        -- Roger

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 17:11:37-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!duke!unc!tim at Ucb-C70
Subject: light sabre power source

Contrary to previous articles, light sabres are not powered by the
Force. You press a button on the hilt and it turns on. In two cases,
light sabres were successfully activated by people totally untrained
in the Force: Luke in the first movie ("it was your father's") and Han
in TESB (slicing open the tauntaun).  Don't try to tell me that this
was "the latent Force within them" doing it; if the Force is with Han,
then a rock could activate a light sabre.
                                        Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 10:30:01-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixlpc!mhauck at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW

I have been watching the disscussion about the Clone Wars from Star
Wars.  If someone had checked the Stars Wars book they would have
found on page 75,76 that it was Clone Wars and only Clone Wars.  Also
on page 80 Luke askes Obi-wan Kenobi about his father's death.  Here
is the reply.

        Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish
to talk about this particular matter.  Unlike Owen Lars, however
Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.
        "He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solmely, "by a
very young Jedi Named Darth Vader." He was not looking at Luke, "A boy
I was training.  One of my brightest diciples...one of my greatest
failures."

If any one wants to come look at the books for further information let
me know I have Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back now in my office.
M.J.Hauck

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 11:04:48-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: SW

   1. "Endor" is not exactly an echo of Tolkien; one of the favorite
Old Testament subjects of painters has been the witch of Endor (from
context, she's actually a medium (maybe necromancer)).
   2. re what went past Luke while he was hanging onto the underside
of Cloud City: one of the nut cases among this area's juvenile fandom
(she'd probably be a Valley Girl on the other coast) made up a clay
model, realistically painted, of a severed hand, which she planned to
hold up (yelling "I got it!") at the appropriate point. I very
carefully was not along to see this.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 11:13:37-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: Food for thought...........TESB, the 'other, etc.

    Just a few observations after seeing TESB again the other day....

     There was NO music playing when Boba Fett took off with Han.

     My impression is that there is a definite resemblence, in both
voice and visage, between Obiwan and the Emperor.  I, however, failed
to do the incredibly obvious; could someone out there in Netland who
intends to see the movie PLEASE stick around for the credits and
perhaps resolve the controversy by noting who played the Emperor!!

     There are certain hints that Han is somewhat adept in the Force:

----He was the one who blindsided Vader during the battle of the Death
Star, without Vader being tipped off by the Force!

----He found Luke during whiteout conditions, with probably hundreds
of acres to cover. (Also note that he appears in the same spot as
Obiwan's apparition!)

----Other than Obiwan, Luke, and Vader, he is the only one that I can
remember who uses a lightsaber!

----In the asteroid field, not only does he miss all the asteroids,
but he outmaneuvers presumably the best fighter pilots in the galaxy!
(They were part of Vader's fleet, hence more likely to be the best.)

----In the dining room scene, Vader must parry Han's shots before
wresting the blaster from him.  Vader should've been able to see in
Han's mind that he would shoot, or presumably some scared officer
would've fragged him by now.


     Note: These are only observations/speculations.  I have no
definite op inion.  I think I'll wait until RotJ.


                             els[Eric Strobel]
                             pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 17:53:00-EST (Wed)
From: ** Cathy ** <jor_ncas.jhu@Udel-Relay>
Subject: TESB - The Other

        I'd just like to get some things straight about "the Other".  
Excluding all theories that assume that the Other is not a person, 
there have been three opinions put forth here which I'm commenting on
(especially the last one).
        First, the one I think is most reasonable:  that the Other is
a character we haven't seen before.  It's a good way to introduce a
new character.  I've also wondered if this person won't turn out to be
Luke's brother or cousin or something like that.  Apparently heredity
counts a lot in determining who gets to be a Jedi.  One thing for sure
-- it won't be anyone that Kenobi knows about.
        Second is the theory that the Other is one of the characters 
in TESB.  I think that changing a character like Leia or Han to Jedi
material in two hours is asking a bit much.  They're just completely
on the wrong track.  I can sympathize with this, though
-- it's kind of disconcerting to find that Luke, the new Robert 
Redford, will have to share the spotlight with someone we don't even 
know about yet.  But this may have been necessary to save the plot of
ROTJ from getting too Luke-against-the-entire-Empire-ish.
        The third theory is the one that made me want to write back 
about it right away:

~=''The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi''?  *Which* Skywalker?
Okay, so here's another idea:  Life was often boring on Luke's home 
planet, so the inhabitants might have sought out each other for 
entertainment.  A couple of days before the Empire shows up, Luke 
could have been at a helluva party.  So the ''Other'' may indeed be 
*his* son??  The Force seems to have some hereditary aspects.....

                (from: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>)

        First, Luke was the most innocent twenty-year-old in the 
galaxy, and I caught no hints of anything funny going on in SW.  Also,
if you might recall, he was entirely given over to space fights and
piloting and such (consistent with any young boy, as anyone who has
ever had a little brother can attest to).  It is VERY hard for me to
picture the Luke of that time getting involved in a, shall we say, 
helluva party.
        Second, there is relatively little time between SW and ROTJ, 
so this kid would be at most nine years old, probably younger.  I
wonder what the Jedi minimum age is?  Unless this kid gets brought up
on "Super-Gro Vitamin Pills", he just isn't going to fill the bill.

        I find it much more likely that in referring to "the son of 
Skywalker", the Emperor was simply using the third person in speaking 
to his subject -- quite understandable considering that Vader was
kneeling before him.  Also, there is an implication that Skywalker as
he used to be is "dead", and has been replaced by Vader.

        Better hang up before this gets too long!

                                -- Cathy

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 12:38:54-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!sb1!mb2b!uofm-cv!paul at Ucb-C70
Subject: Luke in the cave, zen, ...

        One admonition from the world of Zen is "If you meet the
Buddha on the road, kill him."  That is to say, realization comes from
within, etc.  and info from without is not the right stuff.  So you
can't push that zen bit too far, what with the instruction from Yoda.
        Maybe it's more like the Kung-Fu TV show, or Luke is learning 
the space-age bushido.  While he had the chance, Luke should have
enlightened the audience as to what the sound of one hand clapping
really was.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 1458-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: The Other

        In light of the increasingly ridiculous suggestions as to who
the Other is, I am going to submit a number of possible suggestions
for the other, none of whom have appeared in either movie, although
most people will be familiar with the names mentioned.  I will submit
one per day until I go home for christmas break.  The first one is:

Bugs Bunny.

Bugs Bunny is obviously capable of being the other.  He is capable of
dodging bullets (obviously a master of the force).  He always knows
when someone is out hunting him, and can influence their minds to
believe that its really duck season.  All this shows that he is
obviously a Greater Master than Luke or Vader.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 9:02:25-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabre and The Force

        Everybody sez that the sabre does not get its power from the 
source.  They also say that can be proved by the fact that Han Solo 
uses a sabre, and Luke could use it when he first picked it up.  I
thought everybody was part of the Force, it's just that some people
were more aware of it than others, and perhaps these sabres were
designed to work with anybody's "Force Field".

        Anyway, I will hold judgement on this until I see ANH (SW4)
again.  rochester!FtG says it's coming to HBO in February (If untrue,
send flames to *that* address).
        I will not claim that light sabres get their power from The
Force again until that time, so no more rebuttals, please.

        By the way, did anyone mention the beginning of ANH where Leia
makes it quite obvious she knows OB1, by sending him that message via 
R2-D2?  That sure makes a strong argument that she's got a close tie 
with the Jedi Knights.

                                        Jim Heliotis

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 1815-EST
From: Reed B. Powell <POWELL at DEC-MARLBORO>
Location: MRO2-2/Pole 13A
Subject: The "OTHER"

Interesting how just a few simple words can spark ideas that seem to
go on forever!  Here are some ideas/comments on the recent rumblings
on the SFL concerning ESB and RotJ:

WHY DID LEI TURN BACK/DOES THIS MEAN THAT SHE IS WITH THE FORCE?  No,
it simply shows that Luke is with the FORCE, and has the ability to
control the thoughts (and, if necessary, actions) of other beings.
Remember the Space Port scene in SW/ANH, where Obi Won controls the
thoughts of the guards?  Same idea.

OBI WON'S REMARK UPON LUKE'S SKILL AS A PILOT WARRENTS CHOOSING HAN
SOLO AS THE "OTHER."  Hogwash.  All Obi Won was doin was remarking
upon the family trait of being an excellant pilot, not making the
point that one must be a good pilot to make a good Jedi knight.
remember what Yoda said in ESB:  "Good Warrior eh?  Wars do not make
one great."  For a little jumor, how would you picture Yoda (obviously
a Jedi) in the Falcon?

HAN SOLO'S ABILITY TO ACT QUICKLY WITHOUT THOUGHT IN EVIDENCE THAT HE 
IS THE "OTHER."  Or, more likely, it is evidence of is inate ability 
to stay alive.  We have known since the first time we saw him in
SW/ANH that he is a rough-and-tumble spaceman, in the tru tradition of
Heinlein, "doc" Smith, et al.  If he could not navigate the ship so
well, and make decisions quickly on the fly, he would be a DEAD
spaceman.

VADER NEEDS LUKE MORE THAN LUKE NEEDS VADER.  Very true.  it is
usually the case that evil (aka the Dark Side of the FORCE) desires
power.  Vader's only hope of achieving greater power and glory is in
fact to unite with Luke to overthrow the Emperor.  He may not have as
easy time of it as he thinks, since the Emperor certainly has knowlege
and powers Vader is ignorant of (see below).

JUST HOW MUCH DOES VADER KNOW ABOUT THE FORCE?  It is clear that Vader
does not know everything about the FORCE and, specifically, Jedis.
During the first Luke/Vader battle in ESB, Vader maker the remark
"Impressive - Obi Won has taught you well."  This is the logical thing
for Vader to belive, since Obi Won was Vader's teacher.  Since Vader
was compromised by the Dark Side early on, however, he is not aware
that there are entities above Obi Won - in this case Yoda.  It
apparently has never occured to Vader that the Good Side might have a
counterpart for the Emperor (but then we seldon see instances in
literature or real life where evil believes that anything is stronger
than itself).  10:1 the Emperor knows about Yoda, but has chosen not
to let Vader know about him.

OBI WON HAS A CHARACTER FLAW IN THAT HE DID NOT TELL LUKE ABOUT VADER 
BEING HIS FATHER.  OK, let's presuppose for the moment that Vader is
in fact Luke's father.  Maybe Obi Won does not know.  He only knows
that one of his students gave in to the Dark Side.  We never really
knew if Luke's father was still in training at the time of his death
(Obi Won does say in SW/ANH that Luke's father was one of the best
Jedi Knights, but does this mean that the training was over?  Maybe he
exaggerated on the title business just to make Luke feel better).  May
only Yoda knows, and has kept Obi Won ignorant of the fact?

ALL OF THESE COMMENTS ARE LEADING UP TO SOMETHING.  IT HAS BEEN THE 
BELIEF OF MOST PEOPLE (UNTIL THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT THE "OTHER"
STARTED) THAT ONE OF THE EXISTING CHARACTERS, OR PERHAPS A NEW
CHARACTER, WAS THE "OTHER" YODA REFERRED TO.  Think about the dialogue
for a second (you really need to watch it over and over and over).
Obi Wan says that "That boy was our last hope."  Yoda replies "No,
there is another."  This is not necssarily a person - just "another
hope."  Keep in mind the new title (shortly before the release of ESB)
of STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE.  So, what is this "other hope?"  Through
some form of hocus pokus or whatever, Obi Wan is back in the flesh in
RotJ.  This is quite visable in the 3 minute leader shown before the
recent releases of SW/ANH and ESB.  he is no longer an apparition, but
a full character again.  Therein lies my vote.  Cash, securities,
trips and sacrificial virgins to me on 27-May-83.

-reed

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 15:35:18-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Re: Luke's Failure in the Cave - (nf)

#R:rocheste:-31200:uiucdcs:12500011:000:156
uiucdcs!mcewan    Dec 14 12:37:00 1982

If light sabers are powered by the force, this points to Han as the
other, since he's the only non-jedi seen to use a light saber.

Personally, I doubt it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #109
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 17, 1982 4:29PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #109
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
    Misc    - SF attack in Harper's
    Authors - Varley, Wolfe
    T.V.    - Twilight Zone, Dr. Who
    Music   - space rock    
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 16:34:17-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper's magazine

In response to your message of Thu Dec 16 16:09:03 1982:

   I'm still trying to find out a bit more about this idiot and why
HARPER'S (which has been pleading with me to subscribe---I'll have a
nice flame for \them/ the next time that letter comes by) took his
article. I have heard that he is supposed to make a profession of
nastily debunking anything he can get his paws on, but this comes from
fellow fen who were thoroughly annoyed when his article was spread
around Loscon a few weekends ago.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 12:37:53-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!hplabsb!soreff (Jeffrey P. Soreff) at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine

About half of the articles in Harper's are usually flames, and I
believe that Arnold Klein's article falls into that category. Frankly,
I think Klein states his complaints with far too few qualifiers.
Consider " Professors Joe De Bolt and John R. Pfeiffer, in a critical
guide to modern sci-fi, have managed to reduce the inconsequence of
the bookshelves to eight basic categories: stories of utopias and
distopias, human destiny, alternative and lost worlds, alein life,
travels by spaceship and time machine to inaccessible places (sic),
new technology, new beliefs, and new mental and physical capabilities.
Of course, you don't need Occam's razor (a favorite sci-fi
preindustrial artifact, misunderstood to mean 'simplify everything')
to see that these genera have been multiplied without necessity;
uncharitable souls might even consider all eight categories as forming
one irrelevant mess." As far as I can see, in dismissing all utopias 
and distopias, Klein has dismissed most of the popular modes of
expressing political thought except for editorializing about transient
events.  Dismissing new technology and new beliefs dismisses almost
all the forces of change except for demographic ones. From the tone of
the article Klein sounds like he wants to deal with a world he knows
he can understand:  "the complexities of real life" and "the
hurble-burble of ground rent and class struggle". He sounds like he
would be at home a century or two ago, but rather uncomfortable with
this century. -Jeffrey Soreff (hplabs!soreff)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 12:37:51-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!pyuxjj!colbert at Ucb-C70
Subject: Harper's

Reading Harpers is as close to dead as you can get and still breath.

pyuxjj!colbert Charles Colbert

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 14:39:35-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxe!aark at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper's magazine

The attack on science fiction in the December Harper's magazine
reminded me of a scene in Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" (surely Arnold
Klein, the author of the attack, would consider this a "regular
novel").  Levin and his brother are having an argument about farming
in Russia.  Each thinks the other is crazy, and the argument gets
increasingly heated.  Finally Levin's brother starts to walk out in
disgust.  Levin says something like, "Can't you ever admit you're
wrong?"  His brother replies, "Very well, I'm wrong!  You're right!
But I'm still leaving!"

The best response to people who attack your reading tastes and go to
great lengths to prove how asinine and infantile they are is to nod
your head and tell them, "OK, if you think science fiction is
pubescent, naive, stupid, noncreative, unoriginal, and boring, then
you must be right.  But I'm still going to go on reading it."  And
walk out.

In my opinion, Arnold Klein (who was described as "a poet who used to
write book reviews and animal features for the Soho Weekly News") is
jealous of the interest of many people in science fiction instead of
"regular novels," and the consequent lack of money being spent on
those regular novels, and the royalty income going to science fiction
authors instead of writers of non-science-fiction and poets like
himself.

I disdain to argue with a person who I perceive has this attitude, or
apologize to him or her for my reading tastes.  Since Klein has
dismissed science fiction, I will dismiss Klein.  I'll just walk out,
continue spending my book money on whatever *I* want, and let Klein
think whatever *he* wants about me.

Alan R. Kaminsky
Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL
 ...ihps3!ihuxe!aark

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 14:16:25-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Harper's


Three years ago I submitted a story (SF) to Harper's.  I fully 
expected a rejection slip, and sure enough I got one.  What made this
one different from most others was the handwritten note on it:  "This
is not at all the sort of thing we publish.  Have you tried the
`little' magazines?"  The rejection didn't bother me -- the note did.
It smelled of a disease called intellectual elitism.  Their recent
condemnation of science fiction probably means that the disease is in
its terminal stage -- any magazine that would publish such baseless
hysteria (and thereby endorse it) has apparently lost its grip on
editorial sanity.

Mike Lynch mhuxi!macrev

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1982 08:51 PST
From: Hoffman.es at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #107

   It's awfully hard to win an argument against someone like Klein
(author of the Harper's article trashing SF).  There is simply more
bad SF than good, so Klein can wear you down.  It's Sturgeon's Law:
Ninety percent of anything is crap.

--Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1982 10:21:43 CST (Friday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Varley & the attack on sf.

Yes, there are those of us out here who liked TITAN/WIZARD. I'm one.

They aren't as good as Varleys short stories - but then again, how
many authors write novels that are as good as (or better than) their
short stories?  Especially when they deal with abstractions in the
manner of Varley/Ellison?

As for the attack on SF in Harpers - Yuch. This guy sounds like he's
been reading to much Space Opera and `best-selling' sf. Maybe we ought
to find out how many of the things on the various suggested readings
list he's read...

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 18:02:56-EST (Fri)
From: Ron "Aeolian Solo" Natalie <ron@BRL>
Subject: Varley

I like Titan and Wizard (although I do also like the shorter works, I
don't really like to compare them, they're both great in their form).
I also hate running out of books in a series (I usually don't start
multibook series, unless they have all been published).  Does any one
know when JV intends to put out the next one?  It is left open at the
end of Wizard (it seems to me that a good name for the third book
would be "Demon").

[Last I heard, DEMON, which is indeed the title, was scheduled
for release in the first half of '83. --Stuart]

------------------------------

From:	"RUNE::B_TODD c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	12-DEC-1982 22:42  
Subj:	ROTJ, Wolfe, Clarke

All right, already!  My vote for the 'other hope' has always been Vader
(what else would show the ultimately benevolent direction of the Force
than a conversion?), but I can't really get involved in the endless
(and fairly groundless) speculative process.
 
Discovering SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (Wolfe) was a rare treat:  it has
been a very long time since I read ANYTHING that actually used the
English language rather than whatever subset the author felt appropriate
for the illiterate (or maybe the authors themselves have become so).
 
In closing, let me cast a vote for reviews (book or movie) in preference
to speculation (that's just an opinion, not a call for censorship).
Alternatively, partitioning SFL so that one can safely skip the frothier
sections would be useful.
					- Bill

------------------------------

From:	"DJLONG AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 23-Nov-1982
Subject: Space Rock

I know this subject might be getting a little tired but:

There was mention of a Rick Wakeman album that was dedicated to fantasy.  That 
could have been one of two.  He put one out early called "Myths and Legends 
of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table".  A more recent (1976) 
album entitled "No Earthly Connection" has more of a SF AND Fantasy 
overtone.  It includes the song "Spaceman" (Part 3 of 5 of a LONG song)
along with "The Prisoner" which deals with what happens to a murderer AFTER 
he gets the business end of a hangman's noose.

There was an all-too-brief mention of Rush.  This included their songs 
"Cygnus X-1" and "2112".  "2112" is a full-side, multi-song piece of art 
that was supposedly based on a female SF author's book and there are rumors 
of making into a movie. [Maybe someone could supply the name of the book.  
Plot is Anti-Utopian society of massive cities that control EVERYthing, 
kind of like THX-1138 wherein eventually the 'elder race of man' comes back 
to reclaim earth and, in the end, announces it triumphantly to the Solar 
Federation]

Mention was also made of "Starship Trooper" from Yes's "The Yes Album".
No, it doesn't have much to do with SF except for an occasional reference 
to the Starship Trooper.  Yes's only real, bona-fided SF song was "Arriving 
UFO" which, if you have heard the lyrics can be amusing [I could not take 
it oh-so-seriously, really, when you called and said you'd seen a UFO].  
That also makes use of technologic effects for some of the weird sounds.

On Yes's last original album they had a song called "Machine Messiah" 
dealing with our dependence on machines for our work.

The most recent case is on Rush's latest album "Signals".  It is a song 
called "Countdown" that describes the maiden voyage of the Space Shuttle 
Columbia.  It goes so far as to have some of the actual audio tapes of the 
launch sequence in the background.

Cheers -
David J. P. Long  (MERLIN::DJLONG, DJLONG @ MERLIN)

------------------------------

From:	"JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 06-Dec-1982
Subject: SFL Submission (Twilight Zone)

 Good news for TZ fans in the NY area (or who can get WOR, NY channel 9,
on local cable television services).

I caught the last ten minutes of a TWZ episode over the weekend, and saw
from the credits that this was again two shows back-to-back.  As this is
the usual way they show TZ episodes in this area  I was not particularly
astonished,  although I did wonder what TZ was doing on in the afternoon
slot normally reserved for movies.  Reading the TZ episode guide today I
find that what I saw was the end of "On Thursday We Leave For Home", one
of the 1-hour episodes! I can only assume they ran two one-hour episodes
in the two-hour movie slot, and may well be doing this again some future
weekend.  Needless to say, I shall be watching.......

					John.

P.S. Thanks, Lauren, for the episode guide. If it wasn't for that, I'd
     never have known.

------------------------------

From:	"TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	7-DEC-1982 20:28  
Subj:	The Doctor's regenerations

			THE MANY FACES OF DR. WHO


In response to the not-100%-accurate stuff going around about Dr. Who:

I discovered the good doctor in early 1981 and latched on to the series with
the same fervent joy expressed when I discovered Star Trek in 1967.  So, the
following is gathered from books, magazines, conventions, and miscellaneous and
I stand by its accuracy.

Dr. Who premiered November 23, 1963 on the BBC.  The Doctor was played by
William Hartnell, a highly respected veteran actor.  He had a granddaughter,
Susan, and kidnapped (yes, kidnapped!) two of her teachers (Ian and Barbara)
when they stumbled into the TARDIS.  It was at this time that the chameleon
circuit broke, leaving the TARDIS stuck in the shape of a blue police box.
(TARDIS stands for Time And Relative Dimensions In Space; police box is a
contraption that served as a sort of telephone booth for British police -
when the light at the top blinked, the nearest bobby was supposed to call in.
These devices are now obsolete.)  The first Doctor was played as an anti-hero
and was a very grouchy old man.

Hartnell left the series in the middle of the fourth season due to ill health.
The BBC, which had already handled the problem of companions wanting to leave
the show by writing them out and writing new ones in, then came up with the
novel idea of the Doctor having to regenerate due to his bad health as the
"reason" for his change in appearance and personality.  According to the
official canons (as I remember hearing it), this was the Doctor's first
regeneration.

The Second Doctor was Patrick Troughton, a veteran character actor who shows up
all over the British tube (spotted him in All Creatures Great and Small, with
Peter Davison, the Fifth Doctor).  His Doctor was a clown/hobo, who disarmed
people by being very silly, played the recorder, and was given to offering
people jellybabies, gobstoffers, and the like.  The Doctor's second life came
to an end at the end of the sixth season when he ran into a situation too much
for him to handle and he was forced to call upon his fellow Time Lords for
help.  Help him they did, and they thanked him for the information that made
them aware of that terrible mess - then they tried him for the crime of
perenniel interference and sentenced him to involuntary regeneration and exile
to Earth.  (Two behind-the-scenes reasons for this:  Troughton wanted to move
on, and the BBC budget shrank, so they needed cheaper sets.  The next three
seasons are almost entirely on Earth - and on locations within 25 miles of
London.)

The Third Doctor was Jon Pertwee, a comedian and caberet performer.  His Doctor
was very much the dandy and very into gadgets - he produced the sonic
screwdriver, the whomobile, a who hovercraft, a who helicoptor, and a whoed-up
Edwardian roadster named Bessie.  It was Pertwee's Doctor who worked for UNIT
(although it was Troughton's Doctor who first met the Brigadier) and Pertwee's
Doctor who came across the Master for the first time.  The Third Doctor spent a
lot of time protecting Earth from invading aliens and found himself on occasion
trying to protect the invading aliens from Earth.  He also found himself at the
beck and call of Gallifrey, being sent on missions to provide his special brand
of interference.

As a tenth anniversary special, the Three Doctors were reunited to combat a
menace to their/his home world of Gallifrey, much to the chagrin of the
Brigadier, who had finally got used to the idea that his friend the Third
Doctor was also his friend the Second Doctor and now found himself confronted
with both at once and a third that he had never met!  At the end of this story,
the Doctor's exile was lifted.

At the end of the eleventh season, Pertwee was ready to go.  The story here was
that the Doctor had picked up something on his travels that he had to return,
and in doing so suffered radiation damage to the point of death.  Another Time
Lord intervened, and started up a greatly accelerated regeneration.  Hence the
Doctor's "erratic" behavior in Robot.

Tom Baker played the Fourth Doctor.  Those who have seen his predecessors say
that he combines characteristics of all three of them.  Features of the Baker
era are the scarf(s), pockets, jellybabies, K-9, the return of the Master, and
two trips to Gallifrey.  Baker played the Doctor for seven years, making him
the current record-holder.  These shows are all available in the U.S., from two
different distributors and trimmed down (**expletives deleted by automatic net
censoring program**) to fit half-hour viewing slots.

In the eighteenth season Baker began to feel that it was time to move on, so
his Doctor fell to his regeneration at the end of Logopolis (which is full of
truly marvelous backpointers to events and details all the way back to the very
first Doctor Who).

The Fifth (and present) Doctor is played by Peter Davison.  He wears a sort of
cricketeer's uniform (which looks very preppy to me), the shirt with question
mark lapels that Baker wore in his last year, and a stalk of celery in his
coat lapel (because "it's civilised").  He is into cricket.  His Doctor is less
reliant on gadgetry (hence the departure of K-9 with Romana, and the loss of
the sonic screwdriver in a Davison story called The Visitation).  The Master is
still around.  And, alas, no scarf.  The Doctor unravels it to find his way
around the TARDIS during his latest regeneration, a fate he saved it from in
the labryinth on Minos (or was it Crete?).  I've seen three Davison stories,
and he is good.  (It seems to be an established fact that your favorite Doctor
is the first Doctor you see, no matter how much you like the others.)  Some of
the events are given away in the Dr Who guide available to this list, but all I
will say is that one companion leaves the show, another seems to leave but will
be back, and a certain category of villains will return.  The twentieth season
will have a former companion in every story - the Brigadier is confirmed.  The
Black Guardian, whom the Doctor foils at the end of the Key to Time series, is
also back.  And the Doctor will return to Gallifrey.

The nineteenth season, which is the first year of Davison's Doctor, will be
available in the U.S. starting January 1; the twentieth season will become
available in March, and the twenty-first season in March 1984.  There is a
two-hour twentieth birthday special being planned - I'm not sure what the
distribution for that is.  And a series called the Five Faces of Doctor Who,
featuring the very first Doctor Who story, a Troughton story, the Three
Doctors, a Pertwee story, and Logopolis, is supposed to be distributed as a
package.  (Harass your local stations!)

------------------------------

From:	"Dave Mitton at Smaug c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date:  8-Dec-1982
Subject: Star Wars and the Death Star trivia

The person that mentioned that the Death Star is not called that in SW is
wrong.  Upon a recent review of it, I paid attention to that detail and
noticed that no one calls it the "Death Star" until the final scenes at
the rebel base.  Then the mission control "voice" starts announcing the
time until the "Death Star" will be in range.  Previous to that all of 
the Empire personnel call it a "battle station" or simply "this station".
A good example is the meeting in Gov. Tarkin's conference room.

Another interesting thing I noticed is that Lucas carefully avoided any
obvious text in our "Roman" alphabet.  You will see lots of Arabic numberals,
and some funny symbols here and there, but there is only one place that
you see readable English text.  That is on the Tractor beam control
that Obi-Wan turns off.   I guess this was really necessary, since you 
had to know what he was doing, and he wasn't about to explain it aloud
under the conditions.  I think it is this attention to detail that
makes the world of Star Wars such an "believable" setting.

	Dave Mitton.

------------------------------

From:	"TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date:	9-DEC-1982 00:13  
Subj:	Yoda == Emperor?

THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!  Yoda is REALLY the Emperor IN DISGUISE.  There is no
other.  The Rebellion is doomed!

And Merry Xmas to you,
susan

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #110
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 17, 1982 11:27PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #110
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 18 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:
    Books   - Brunner's THE SHEEP LOOK UP
    T.V.    - "The Invaders" 
    Misc    - explosive decompression, Star Trek crosses Known Space
    Movies  - Fantastic Voyage, SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 21:45:18 EST (Wednesday)
From: David Mankins <dm at BBN-RSM>
Subject: The Sheep Look Up, by John Brunner


I just finished "The Sheep Look Up" by John Brunner (having read 
"Stand on Zanzibar" earlier this year).  It is a pessimistic, although
not exactly depressing, novel about the effects of pollution.  It is
set in the early eighties and describes a polluted world in which the
Mediterranean, Baltic, and Caspian have suffered the same fate as Lake
Erie in the 60s, where you can only see a blue sky from the windows of
airplanes, and where the rain is so laced with insecticides and
defoliants (weed-killers) that gardens wither and die.  In short, it 
describes the world James Watt, Ann Gorsuch, and Ronald ("Prexy") 
Reagan would like us to have.  A world in which the entire United 
States is a Love Canal.

Indeed, Brunner depicts a President of the United States who is always
going somewhere on vacation, and who is continually making ignorant
remarks to the press about events, leading me to suspect that Brunner
modeled the character on Ronald Reagan.  Though I suppose most
Presidents look this way from across the Atlantic, Ronald Reagan just
more so.

I say the book is not depressing for a pair of reasons.  One reason is
that here it is the 1980s, and things really aren't as bad as he
describes, and probably aren't going to get quite that bad (although
try listening to the news describe the dieldrin contamination in
Missouri, and Love Canal, and PCB contamination in Michigan without
thinking about this book).  The other reason is that it ends on a
hopeful note.

Actually, its REALLY depressing if you end up considering the way it
ends as being a hopeful note.

It is written in much the same collage style as "Stand on Zanzibar."
If you liked that novel, you should like this one, too. "Zanzibar"
seemed "louder" than "Sheep"--I suspect Brunner uses fewer capital
letters in the latter novel.

It is more than just similarities in style that link the two novels.
In addition to being about environmental concerns ("Zanzibar" is about
over-population, "Sheep" about pollution), both novels have prophets
who are honored, but ignored.  Both prophets (Clyde Mulligan in
"Zanzibar" and Austin Train in "Sheep") spend some years wandering in
the desert after they've achieved fame.  Both return to the limelight
to tell us how much worse things have become.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 1304-EST
From: Mike First <FIRST at NLM-MCS>
Subject: "Invaders" TV series query

Remember the TV series "The Invaders"?  It is rarely mentioned on this
list although I remember it as being quite good.  Was it really good
or is it just that I was much younger when it was aired (and is RARELY
syndicated).  One possible explanation for its relative lack of
success is the fundamentally depressing nature of its theme.
Essentially from week to week, our hero never achieved his goal (i.e.
convincing the world that invaders had already landed) nor did he make
even minor progress--whenever he would succeed in the beginning of an
episode to convince some people of the truth, they would be destroyed 
or otherwise incapacitated by the end.  Not very satisfying for the
mass audience.  QUERY: Did the series have a planned ending (i.e. did 
it end by having David Vincent convince the world that the invaders
are here) or did it die out abruptly due to cancellation (a la "Time
Tunnel", "Lost in Space", etc.)  Also, is there some sort of episode
guide available?  Did any prominent sci-fi writers have anything to do
with it?
--Michael (FIRST@NLM-MCS)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 21:12:32-EST (Wed)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL>
Subject: MCP's and Who's Who.

Someone was complaining about SF being the last haven of the MCP's.  
But, if the Master Control Programs don't belong to Science Fiction, 
where else can they go?

In the last series of the Tom Baker Dr. Who shows, there was this
planet who were beaming equations out into deep space to restore order
because the entropy level was getting too high.  Anybody have any
scientific or mythological feelings about this?  I also saw someone
putting down the New Who on the list because he had question marks on
his shirt collars.  Look closly at Baker, he has them too.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 16 December 1982 01:45-PST (Thursday)
From: Allan M. Schiffman <Schiffman at SRI-KL>
Subject: More explosive decompression: SFL V6 #99

    From:  "ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
    Date:  30-NOV-1982 09:51
    Subj:  explosive decompression.
    ...
    Finding a vacum chamber at your friendly local highschool or
    college science lab, and observing a beaker of water in it
    would help you understand.
    ...

Wouldn't the  experiment be  more appropriate  if the  water is  in  a
sealed plastic bag?

You might want to trap as little air as possible, and leave some slack
in the bag.  Even better if the "plastic" was some kind of
gas-permeable membrane.

-Allan

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 20:56:41-EST (Wed)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL>
Subject: Fantastic Voyage and Star Trek.

About the Sixty Gallon Drum of Water injected into the guy...  You
will remember watching the "radar" picture of the needle while the
submarine was carefully (lest it fall out on the floor) driven to as
close to the end as possible.  This was done to prevent as much water
as possible from entering the guy.  Something that was left out of the
movie however (but was explained by the book) is what happened when
this large metallic submarine that they abandoned in the guys brain
regained normal size (you'll remember that they exitted through the
eye without it).  In the book, one of them drags the partially 
decomposed thing out with him before it gets too big.

As for those who have been second guessing James T. Kirk about the use
of the Shuttlecraft and the Transporter in emergency situations:  You 
may submit your applications to the acadamy for mthe next term.

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 1056-EST
From: Stephen R Balzac <LS.SRB at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Vader death count

        Which is more evil:  killing someone with your own hands, or
hiring someone else to do your dirty work for you?  Besides, Vader
does appear to be into torture, which a number of people seem to have
overlooked.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 13:02:42-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdS.steve at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: re: light saber

how about simply believing Obi Wan when he said that the light saber
was a more elegant weapon for a more civilized time?  It seems
throughout history that the hand weapon is usually replaced by the
"NEW and IMPROVED" versions of projectile weapons as they are
developed( the long bow by the cross-bow, the Springfield by the M-1,
etc...).

Current military customs usually provide for the wearing of the dress
sword only on special occasions. How practicle would a sword (or even
a light saber) be in stopping an opponent at 50 yards?

I would appear that Darth Vader took on Obi Wan as a matter of pride.
The sensible thing to do would have been to stay back and lay waste to
the corridor, including Obi Wan, with a suitable weapon. That,
however, never seems to happen (the bad guys never take the easy way
out--they like to gloat!).

How to obtain a new light saber?  Check out the local antique gun
shoppe.  I'm sure someone's grandfather had one at one time but it
outlived it's usefulness and was traded-in for something more
appropriate. (you gots to look at realities (?)).  If not, well, the
plans coulden't have all been lost.  (After all, it was THE WEAPON of
the Jedi for a thousand generations!!!).  Just run down tho the local
smithy.l

Besides, if you can still get battries for it, there must be some,
somewhere.

If you gots to get caught up in the story, you gots to start believing
more and stop putting in so much sweats over the unessential.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 13:19:29-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!ittvax!neiman at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc.



The other day, I saw TESB for the second time.  The scene in which
Darth Vader wards off Han's blaster fire using the force answered one
of those questions which had been bothering me since I saw Star Wars
for the first time, to wit, how can our heros stroll through barrages
of enemy fire without getting even singed while the Imperial Troopers
fall right and left.  Obviously the force (as well as the necessity
for character continuity) protects them and redirects enemy fire.

And I thought that the guys in white armor were just incredibly bad
shots...

                                                 DanN

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 12:02:10-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc.

   Another thing I forgot to mention....

     When speaking about the dark side of the Force, Yoda says
something to the effect that once the dark side takes over, you are
forever in its sway.

     That would tend to rule out a turnabout by Vader.  Does anyone
remember the exact quote??

                             els[Eric Strobel]
                             pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 20:52:26-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Vader death count

There are many death counts greater than those of Vader and Tarkin.

For example, the Vogons in The Hitch Hiker's Guide ttG destroy Earth
and no doubt many other planets.  We're also told of whole planets
destroyed in games of galactic Billiards.

Many grandiose stories outdo even this.  Consider the tally against 
Boskone by the Kinison clan.

I think top billing goes to good old Nathan Brazil, however.  Anybody 
got a case that can top him?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 12:32:49-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixlpc!tomoc at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Emperor

I caught Empire the other night and did remember at the end to see who
played the Emperor.  I can`t remmember his name, but I know it was NOT
Alec Guiness!  However, as noted before, Obi Wan and the Emperor did
look strikingly alike.  I think some people have come up with some
very interesting ideas about him, Vader, etc. but I`m just going to
wait for ROTJ to find out who`s who.

                                Tom O`Connor
                                ixlpc!tomoc

------------------------------

Date:  14 December 1982 00:06 est
From:  Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject:  StarTrek crosses Known Space


One of the animated Star Trek episodes, titled "Slaver Weapon", is
virtually identical to the Larry Niven story "The Soft Weapon". This
is not surprising, since Niven did the script for that episode. This
episode caused all of Star Treks history to be re-written to include
Kzin, Slavers, and so on. I am told that anti-gravity for Star Trek
was discovered because of a flying belt found in a stasis box.

The following is a combined chronology for that universe. It is taken
from another bboard, but attributed to NEXUS magazine.



Y1   First contact between Humans and neighbors.

Y4   Federation formed.

Y32  Federation sub-light CL in service.

Y33  Romulan Warbird in service.

Y34  Gorn sub-light battleship in service.

Y36  First Gorn-Romulan War begins.

Y38  Lyran-Klingon War begins; no details known.

Y39  Gorns lose first Gorn-Romulan War at Gorn-Shima.

Y40  First Federation-Romulan War begins.  Lyrans attack what they
     believe is a Klingon mining colony.  The outpost is, instead,
     from the Hydrans, and not previously known to the Lyrans.
     Thus begins the first Lyran-Hydran War.

Y42  Lyran-Klingon War ends when several Lyran clans abandon the
     war to protect their homes from the Hydrans.  Lyrans are
     forced to accept an unfavorable settlement.

Y43  Lyrans defeat Hydran invasion, but reach negotiated settlement
     rather than continue the war.  First Lyran-Hydran War ends.

Y45  Cruiser design introduced by Federation.

Y46  First Federation-Romulan War ends with ceasefire.

Y48  First Lyran-Kzinti War begins.

Y50  First Klingo-Kzinti War begins.

Y56  First Lyran-Kzinti War ends.

Y62  Federation launches first warp-powered cruiser.
     Klingons launch first warp-powered D6.
     Second Gorn-Romulan War begins.

Y63  Kzinti's develop warp power.  Federation begins converting
     thirty old-style sub-light cruisers to warp power.

Y65  Hydrans develop warp power.  By a fortuitous chance,
     the current sub-light ships adapt very well to warp
     power.  Conversion of these ships begins.  Federation
     CA, DD, SC in service.  Klingon D6, F5, E4 in service.
     Kzinti CS, CL, FF in service.  Drone I in service.
	
Y66  Gorns develop warp power.  Gorns could use this advantage to
     destroy the Romulans, but choose to fight defensively.
     Incidents along Hydran-Klingon border.  Klingons want
     settlement rights on oxy-nitrogen planets in Hydran
     territory; Hydrans want same rights on methane worlds in
     Klingon space.

Y67  Lyrans develop warp power.

Y68  Gorns win second Gorn-Romulan War.  Lyran CA, CL, DD, FF in
     service.  Second Lyran-Hydran War begins.

Y69  Gorn CA, CL, DD in service.

Y71  Federation forms the United Star Fleet.  Member planets begin
     disbanding their "national" fleets.  Second Lyran-Hydran War
     ends when improved Hydran weapons give them a decisive
     advantage over the Lyrans.

Y72  Federation Tug, Cargo Pod, Starliner, Police, GS cruiser in
     service.  Klingon-Hydran "incident."

Y73  Hydrans attack Klingons.  They do not have a formal alliance
     with the Kzintis (who are still at war with the Klingons),
     but are considered as co-belligerants.  Klingons are
     hard-pressed to fight a war on two fronts.  A new Hydran
     weapon gives the Klingons much concern.

Y74  Freighters and Q-ships generally available, except to
     Romulans.

Y75  Badly outnumbered Klingon fleet defending the Hydran
     Frontier is decisively defeated by the Hydrans.
     Klingons agree to a peace settlement granting the
     Hydrans trade concessions, and allowing them to
     colonize several methane-atmosphere planets within
     Klingon Empire.  Kzintis howl with rage because Hydrans
     will not continue the war.  Klingons purchase much war
     material (at rediculously inflated prices) from Hydrans
     and turn on Kzintis.
	
Y77  Drone II, IV, V in service from this date.

Y82  First Klingo-Kzinti War ends.  Klingons capture three
     key planets.

Y83  Federation CC in service.  Tholians first encounter by the
     Klingons.  First of several vicious border wars lasts two
     years.  PC in service.  Klingon D7, F-5S, E3, G2 in service.
     Klingon Tug-B, Cargo, Power Boost, Transport pod in service.
     Kzinti Scout in service.  Drone III in service.

Y84  Klingons, having defeated Kzintis, attack Hydrans.  This is
     known as the "Second Klingo-Hydran War" to Federation
     Historians, as the "War of Retribution" to the Klingons, and
     as the "War of Infamy" to the Hydrans.  Lyrans attack
     collapsing Hydran border and capture several planets, but are
     not formal allies of Klingons at this point.  This is the
     Third Lyran-Hydran War.

Y87  Klingons smash Hydran fleet.  Hydran colonies are destroyed.
     Many attrocities are committed by the Klingons.  All Hydran
     ships larger than police frigates are destroyed, and the
     Hydran Kingdom is reduced to a client of the Klingons.  The
     Klingons established governors on Hydran planets.  Due to the
     difference in atmospheres, however, these governors are never
     really able to control the populace and usually rule from
     orbiting satellites.  These satellites have powerful weapons
     aimed at the planet below, but are poorly defended against
     attack from space.

Y88  First Federation-Kzinti War begins as Kzintis attack.  Second
     Lyran-Klingon War begins as arguments develop over division
     of the Hydran Empire.  In the confusion, the Hydran colonies
     of Altroth, Minxitith, and Krooth have not been noticed or
     occupied by the Klingons.  These colonies were established by
     major merchant guilds of the Hydran Kingdom, and the later
     power of the Guilds stems from this period.  The Guilds
     maintain the monarchy through Prince S'Lenthna, the last heir
     of Hydraxan IX.  The Prince is a virtual puppet (the Guilds
     hold the real power), but his presence is important in
     rallying the Hydrans.

Y89  Kzintis makes gains, capturing several planets.
     Romulans attack Tholians, but abandon the "First
     Romulan-Tholian War" in less than a year.

Y90  Third Gorn-Romulan War begins with Romulan attack.  Gorn Fleet
     Tug, Cargo, and Transport Pods, Starliner, in service.  Civil
     wars in the Hydran "lost colonies", as Prince S'Lenthna tries
     to break the power of the Guilds.

Y91  Klingons begin conversion of D6 class, increasing engine power
     from 24 to 30.  All are converted by Y93.  Klingons and
     Lyrans settle their differences by negotiation.  The Klingons
     are anxious to do so because they plan to attack Tholia.
     Federation begins counter-offensive to regain territory
     occupied by the Kzintis.

Y92  The Great Klingo-Tholian War begins.  First Federation-Kzinti
     War ends, with border re-established in the original location.

Y93  Extended range drones available.

Y95  Kzinti Fleet Tug, Pods (C, LSD, T), in service.

Y96  Third Gorn-Romulan War ends.

Y101 Hydran civil wars intensify.  Much of Minxitith rendered
     uninhabitable.

Y102 Klingons abandon war against Tholians.

Y103 Second Klingo-Kzinti War begins.

Y104 Kzinti Drone Frigate in service.

Y106 Kzintis win second Klingo-Kzinti War, regain planets.

Y109 Second Lyran-Kzinti War begins when a Kzinti CS destroys a Lyran
     exploration ship.  The Lyrans claim a moral outrage over the
     attack, but ignore the fact that their "exploration ship" was
     exploring Kzinti territory for new colony sites.

Y110 First Federation-Klingon War.

Y111 First Federation-Klingon War ends inconclusively.

Y113 Federation completes the disbanding of the "national" fleets as
     the Federation Star Fleet is completed.  Sixteen Orion ships and
     9,000 skilled crewmen mutiny and disappear.

Y114 Second Lyran-Kzinti War ends.  Klingo-Tholian "incident."

Y115 Federation Battle Pod in service.

Y117 Orion CR, DR, Slaver, LR observed in operation.

Y119 Klingon Battle Pod and Tug-A in service.

Y120 Fourth Gorn-Romulan War begins.

Y121 Gorn Monitor Pod in service.  Klingo-Tholian "incident."  Kzinti
     Battle Pod in service.

Y123 Third Klingo-Kzinti War begins.

Y125 Fourth Gorn-Romulan War ends.  Gorns have claimed some
     territory.  Lyrans attack Kzintis with part of their fleet,
     taking advantage of the concurrent Klingo-Kzinti War.  This
     is the Third Lyran-Kzinti War.

Y128 Hydran civil wars end as Prince S'Lenthna abdicates in favor of
     his grandson.  Under-age, all of the boy-king's regents are
     heads of Guild houses.

Y129 Hydran "lost colonies" begin preparations for restoration of the
     kingdom.  Technology is acquired from unknown foreign
     sources, later said to be Kzinti or perhaps Orion.  The great
     22nd century journalist Rod N.  Berry suggest that the Orions
     were operating under a contract with the Federation G.I.A.

Y131 Third Klingo-Kzinti War ends, with inconclusive results.

Y132 First Orion CA sopotted during this year.  Hydran agents begin
     infiltrating the Klingon-occupied planets of the kingdom.

Y133 Gatling Phaser developed by Hydrans.

Y134 Hydran Ranger, Lancer, Scout/Hunter in service in the "lost
     colonies."

Y135 Hydrans from the lost colonies under King Hydraxan XI attack the
     Klingon satellites over the Hydran planets.  In a swift
     campaign lasting only a few weeks, the Hydran Kingdom is
     restored.  The personal popularity of Hydraxan XI makes him
     "unacceptable" to the guilds, and he dies under mysterious
     circumstances.  While Hydraxan XII ascends the throne, the
     guilds solidify their power.

Y136 Second Federation-Kzinti War begins as Kzintis attack border
     stations.

Y137 Third Klingo-Hydran War begins when Hydrans attack Klingons.

Y139 Klingo-Tholian Incident.

Y141 Third Klingo-Hydran War ends.  Hydrans have gained no territory,
     but have regained their self-respect.  For reasons that remain
     obscure, four new kings take the throne in less than one year.
     The last, Hydraxan XVI, manages to hold power for two years.

Y142 Second Federation-Kzinti War ends with no change in border.

Y143 Brief Fourth Lyran-Hydran War begins and ends as Hydrans
     recapture two planets from Lyrans.  Lyrans are unable to
     devote full attention due to troubles on Kzinti border, and
     agree to ceasefire.

Y144 Fourth Lyran-Kzinti War begins.

Y145 Kzinti renegades (members of a neo-samaurai cult) raid Allen's
     Planet, slaughtering all 3,000 colonists, and kidnapping a human
     infant named William S. Gerard.  "The Marquis" (the Kzinti noble
     in charge of the border) captures and executes the renegades to
     preserve peace on the border.

Y146 Hydran "civil war" begins, but all combat will take place within
     the palace over the next five years.

Y147 Tholian Cruiser in service.

Y149 Klingo-Tholian Incident.

Y150 First Orion Salvage Cruiser spotted in operation this year.

Y152 Hydraxan XXIII ("The Great") ascends the throne, which he will
     hold for almost two decades.

Y154 Second Federation-Romulan War begins.

Y155 Treaty of Pelione re-establishes the Neutral Zone, and ends the
     second Federation-Romulan War.  Ensign Phillip Kosnett graduates
     from Star Fleet Academy.  Ensign Ardak Kumerian graduates from
     Deep Space Fleet Academy.  Fourth Lyran-Kzinti War ends.  Orions
     destroy border station K4.

Y156 Second Federation-Klingon War begins.  War ends the same year,
     with the Organian treaty.  Orions destroy a Kzinti border
     station.  Kzinti-Hydran Treaty signed.  Each pledges to
     attack the Klingons and Lyrans if the other is attacked by
     them.  The Klingons and Lyrans sign a joint defensive treaty
     six weeks later.  Many Lyran clans oppose this treaty,
     resulting in a sporadic civil war.

Y157 Gorn-Federation "war" starts as the result of a small incident.
     Both fleets mobilize, but no actual fighting takes place.
     The "war" ends only six weeks later with signing of the
     Treaty of Algoran.  Treaty of Friendship signed.  Fifth
     Lyran-Hydran War begins.  Lyran civil war ends abruptly.  ECM
     and scrambling drones available.

Y158 Fourth Klingo-Kzinti War begins.  Citing their treaty, the
     Hydrans almost immediately launch an attack against the
     Klingon border squadrons.  The Lyrans join the Klingons in
     fighting both Hydrans and Kzintis.  The Federation, anxious
     to reduce the threat to their security posed by the Klingons,
     shifts fleet units to the Klingon border, and discusses with
     Organians the possibility of limited action by the Federation
     to restore the "Balance of Power." This is, however, a "hoax"
     (the Federation would never consider military power as a
     solution to the problem), intended to influence the Klingons
     to negotiate an immediate settlement to end the war.  The
     plan backfires.

Y159 Klingon-Romulan Treaty of Smarba signed.  Klingons begin
     supplying advanced technology to the Romulans, allowing
     experimental conversion of six Warbirds to War Eagles.  These
     increase pressure on Federation Border.  Federation transfers
     elements of the Star Fleet from the Klingon to the Romulan
     border.  This allows Klingons to transfer ships to fight
     Kzintis.  Federation attempts to use the "threat of force" as
     a substitute for simple force has failed, and resulted in a
     dangerous situation that may eventually destroy the
     Federation.

Y160 First KR and KF5R ships transferred to Romulans, in service next
     year.  Phillip Kosnett becomes captain of the Heavy Cruiser
     Kongo.

Y161 Kzintis introduce attack shuttle.  Federation-Klingon "Hostage
     Incident."  Romulans acquire freighters and Q-ships.

Y162 Kongo converted to Command Cruiser.  "The Marquis" sends William
     Gerard home in a Fighter-Shuttle.  Fifth Lyran-Hydran War ends.
     The Bezwell Index episode.  Romulans begin regular conversion of
     Warbird ships to War Eagle class, at the rate of two per year.
     Fourth Klingo-Kzinti War ends with inconclusive results.

Y163 Klingo-Tholian Incident.  Kongo conveys delegates to conference
     that will organize anit-pirate forces.  Orions attack ship and
     try to stop conference.

Y164 Romulan Pelican and Falcon in service.  Kongo enters time warp
     and returns.

Y165 Kzintis launch first carrier.

Y166 Series of incidents on Klingo-Kzinti border (undeclared war).
     Kumerian destroys Kzinti shuttle squadron #26, and is
     promoted to command the D6 "Destruction." Klingon D6
     "Devastator" operates as experimental semi-carrier.  Conducts
     several raids on Kzinti frontier to test fighters.  William
     Gerard graduates from Star Fleet Academy.  Orion Pirates
     attack Zeta Omicron station.  First encounter with an
     Andromedan.  Kzinti CV, CVL, and CVE in service.
     Federation-Kzinti articles of agreement.

Y167 Kzintis introduce improved fighter (can guide its own Drones).
     Kumerian, now in command of the "Tholian Frontier Harrassment
     Squadron", makes a "demonstration" attack against Tholians.

Y168 Federation and Klingons introduce Dreadnoughts.  Chaff pods
     available.  Klingon CV(T) and Hanger Pod in service.  First
     General War begins when war erupts on the Lyran-Kzinti border.
     This is firt known as the Fifth Lyran-Kzinti War, but rapidly
     escalates.

Y169 Klingons join Lyrans and declare war on Kzintis.  Hydrans attack
     both Klingons and Lyrans.  William Gerard serves as an
     "observer" with the Kzinti fleet.  Tholian Black Widow and
     Dreadnought in service.  The "Cutlass Episode." The Klingon
     D6 Destruction, commanded by Ardak Kumerian, raids Sherman's
     planet.  Warp-powered version of Romulan Warhawk in service.
     Kzinti Space Control Ship in service.  Klingons begin
     construction of B-10 Battlewagon "Invincible."

Y170 Klingon D6 Battlecruiser "Destruction" mutinies, and is interned
     at Federation Starbase 16.  Returned to Klingons next year.
     Klingons are outraged that the Federation dismantled the
     Ubitron Interface Module.  Klingons want to declare war on
     Federation, but are restrained by the Organians.  Kumerian,
     captain of the Destruction, is demoted in disgrace.  His son
     Kollos graduates from Deep Space Academy, but is refused a
     naval commission.  He transfers to the Security (Police)
     Forces.  Klingon CV(T) "Berzerker" lost in combat
     (circumstances unknown).  Kzinti Hangar Pod in service.
     Romulan Condor in service.  Orion CVL spotted operating.
     Lyran Lion DN in service.  Hydran Paladin, Dragoon, Knight,
     Cuirassier, in service.

Y171 The Organians disappear.  Several races are blamed for this, but
     none know the true situation.  Klingons declare war on
     Federation and attack Federation outposts.  Federation CV,
     DE, CLE enter service.  Three carrier groups formed.  Gorn DN
     in service.

Y172 Federation responds to Klingon attack with raids by new
     carriers.  Federation fleets are sent to assist the Kzintis,
     and a Federation expedition (Operation Hydra) unsuccessfully
     attempts to penetrate Klingon space to reach Hydra.

Y173 Hard-pressed by the Federation, the Klingons convince the
     Romulans to attack.  The Romulans declare war on the
     Federation and launch a massive attack.

Y174 Gorns Join Federation.  First General war has now reached
     virtually complete escalation.  Grand Alliance
     (Gorn-Federation-Kzinti) fleets battle
     Romulan-Klingon-Lyrans.  Hydrans have co-belligerant status
     with Grand Alliance, but are not formal allies.  Orions begin
     operating against the Grand Alliance, using unprecedented
     numbers of ships.  Responding to a Peace initiative from the
     Kzintis, the Admiral Kang sets out on it most excitin voyage.

Y176 Klingons and Romulans attempt massive operation to destroy
     Tholians.  Hard-pressed, the Tholians join the Grand
     Alliance, but will not allow Federation ships into their
     territory.

Y177 Desperately besieged, the Tholians agree to let ships of their
     allies enter the Holdfast, but only those of the Gorns and
     Kzintis (since they would not pose as much of a later
     threat).  Ardak Kumerian restored to rank as Captain of D6
     "Destruction."

Y178 Lyrans introduce Psuedo-Fighters.

Y179 Klingons begin operating Pseudo-Fighters.  Two flotillas are
     formed: 700th (LDSF personnel) and 701st (ISF personnel).
     Kollos Kumerian's 701st Gunboat Flotilla ("The Bounty
     Hunters") begins a reign of terror that destroys 135 Kzinti
     fighters in a year and a half.  Ardak Kumerian promoted to
     commodore.

Y180 Hydrans and Orions begin operation Psuedo-Fighters.  Three
     Federation DN's converted to DN+.

Y181 Federation CV "MacArthur" crashes into Romulan capitol during
     "Operation Remus." Kzintis begins operating Psuedo-Fighters,
     and add Pseudo-Fighters to their Space Control Ship
     Dreadnoughts.  Gorns, Romulans, and Tholians begin operating
     Pseudo-Fighters.  Ardak Kumerian promoted to Admiral.  Phil
     Kosnett promoted to Commodore.

Y182 Operation "Cavalry." Gorn fleet units transfer to Klingon
     frontier for major assault in cooperation with Kzinti and
     Federation units.

Y183 Repeated carrier battles between Federation/Kzinti and Klingon
     forces.  Federation CV "Napoleon" heavily damaged and out of
     the war.

Y184 Pleiades Turkey Shoot, "Cracker Jack" Radey saves the fleet.

Y185 Organians return and halt the war.  They offer no explanation
     for their absence, but express hope that the "Lower Empires"
     (as they call the othes) have "learned the futility of war."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 18-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #111
*** EOOH ***
Date: Saturday, December 18, 1982 3:22PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #111
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 19 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:
    Themes  - sexism in Piers Anthony and SF, Time Travel, shrinking
	      in HGttG
    Misc    - HGttG in Nature, video game
    T.V.    - recent "Aliens/ET" show, SF and lack thereof
    Movies  - Star Trek, Airplane II, SW/TESB/ROTJ, Sir Alec G. alive
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 11:01:25-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!burton at Ucb-C70
Subject: More Piers Anthony sexism

I have just completed Piers Anthony's "Viscous Circle", which is 
altogether a fine book. However, I noticed how blatantly sexist 
Anthony is in his science fiction; prior to this novel, I had only 
read his Xanth novels, and so contributed his sexism to the genre in
which he was writing. Now I can no longer use this excuse. Was it just
my imagination? Was I being overly sensitive? I realize Anthony's
sexism has been discussed on the net before, but has anyone discussed
his attitudes with regards to science fiction novels? I recall such
lines in "Viscous Circle" as:

        It is the nature of the [female] sex to not give love
        away, but to always use it to gain some advantage.

There were many instances (which I can't remember well enough to 
quote) where Anthony makes statements (such as the one above) about
various characteristics of the female sex, which I felt were at least
a little, and in some cases greatly, demeaning.  Has anyone else out
there read "Viscous Circle" and gotten a similar impression?

        Doug Burton
        inuxc!burton

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 12:55:36-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: Sexism in SF


      If you want REAL sexism, try the Gor series!  I think it's every
REAL man's duty to read these books(or enough of them to get the
general idea) so that someday we can set things right and women can be
free to take on their true role in life!!!

       (---left as an exercise for the reader: is this
tongue-in-cheek, or is this for real!  You'll find out after
civilization falls!!!!!)


                                 els[Eric (the Barbarian) Strobel]
                                 pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 82 1:50:06-PST (Sat)
From: teklabs!tektronix!tekcad!franka at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: time travel, ST, and AIRPLANE II

        Re: time travel - My favorite story about time travel is "The
Time Hoppers" by Robert Siverberg. I know it's more of a story of the
human costs of time travel rather than the technical, but I still
think it's one of the best stories around.

        Re: City on the Edge of Forever - I have seen the TV show AND
read the original screen play (published in the book, "Six Modern
Science Fiction Plays" (I don't remember by whom)) and I find the
original script by Mr.  Ellison MUCH superior to the version shown on
TV. The script definitely de- served all the awards it won (I wish I
could say the same for the TV version...).

        I just got back from seeing "Airplane II: The Sequel". It is a
fantastic movie (if you liked the kind of bad jokes and horrible puns
in Airplane!). I won't tell you any more of the plot except that it
takes place on the first lunar shuttle flight and that several of the
cast are back. Also, in the closing credits it says, "Coming soon from
Paramount (or whatever the hell company made it), "AIRPLANE III"! I
heartily re- commend it to anyone who liked the first movie!
                                Frank Adrian

uucp:  {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!tekcad!franka 
CSnet:  franka@tek ARPAnet: franka.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 14:46:17-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Time Travel books

(RE:  Request from Rene Steiner for favorites on this topic.)

     There are just too many time travel books to pick one favorite
easily.  Silverberg's "Up the Line" and Laumer's "The Great Time
Machine Hoax" are the funniest, while Poul Anderson's "Tau Zero" is
probably the most hard-scientific, as the time travel occurs solely as
the result of near-light velocity.  ,but deals nicely with some of the
paradoxes that others have avoided.  One of my all-time favorites,
though, is still Fritz Leiber's "The Big Time," plus his other stories
of the Change War.
      Open question:  Should alternate/parallel universe stories be
considered as a sub-genre of time-machine stories, since so many of
them are based on the [cliched] notion of the "effects" of changing
one (just one...) event in the past?  If so, then we'd have to count
books like Dick's "The Man in the High Castle", and Len Deighton's
"SS-GB".
      The latter, by the way, is actually quite well done
alternate-history sf.  Its basic premise is that the Allies lost WWII,
and its main character is an inspector at Scotland Yard under the new
regime.  He's British to the core, but the Yard is now under the
control of the British branch of the SS [whence the title..].

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 9:40-PST
From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL
Subject: HGttG in Nature

I noticed the following sentence at the beginning of a review in
Nature of the book "Cosmology, Physics and Philosophy":

    "The anciencts considered the ultimate question of 'Life, the
     Universe, and Everything' to be part of philosophy even though
     they were not sure the answer was 42..."

(Nature, 11/11/82, page 135)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 19:38:59 EST  (Wed)
From: speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: Shrinking in HHGttG

    Date: 30 Nov 82 17:28:22-EST (Tue)
    From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
    Subject: Shrinking in HHGttG

    I refer to is that dealing with the war between the V'l'hurg
    and the G'gugvunt [sp?], caused by Arthur's line "I've been
    having problems with my lifestyle lately" being sucked through
    a wormhole in space.  When the combatants recognize that it's
    actually due to an ape descendant that they're fighting, they
    combine their fleets and send them off to destroy Earth.  Alas,
    on arrival the entire fleet is swallowed by a dog!

But wait no...hadn't the earth been destroyed by this time?  Perhaps
the wormhole extended back through time as well, only to reach the two
armadas BEFORE earth's destruction?

    The TV version of this scene, by the way, has the battle
    set up as an arcade game -- a very nice touch.

That really WAS good, with flashing scores and video game sounds
and everything.

                        - Speaker

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 14 December 1982  13:11-EST
From: AGRE at MIT-MC
Subject: *** Special Video Game Alert ***

There is a rumor going about concerning a new video game called
Communist Mutants From Space.  Apparently there is a poster
advertizing the game.  I must have a copy.  If anyone could point me
at the manufacturer I would be most grateful.  If I succeed in finding
it, I'll send another message to sf-lovers for the curious.  Thanks
alot.  - pHil

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 0559-PST
Subject: Recent "Aliens/ET" TV show
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)

I hope that the readers of SFL had a chance to see the Robin Williams
"Aliens/ET" special shown Tuesday, 14 Dec.  Lots of good clips from
numerous SF movies.  One of them was especially interesting.  There
were two brief scenes from a movie identified as "George Pal's
CONQUEST OF SPACE (1953)" [I may have the date wrong].

These scenes depicted some special effects of an orbiting ring-type
space station and some EVA construction or similar activity.  They
seemed to be quite well done for that vintage; they were in color and
looked fairly realistic, at least on a TV screen.  I considered them
to look as good as the "2001" space station shots also shown.

This inspires me to wonder why I have not seen this movie before.  If
it is this good, why hasn't it made the rounds of the late-night SF
movies on TV?  Are these shots unrepresentative, being the only good
scenes in an otherwise-poor film?  Or is it, perhaps, a dull film from
most viewers' viewpoints, emphasizing technical effects with no story
[the title doesn't appeal to the normally horror-film-oriented TV
programmer, I am sure!].  Or is the film tied up in one of those silly
Hollywood legal snarls that restrict the availability of many films?

That brief exposure left me wanting to see the whole thing, and I have
no idea if I will ever be able to.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 09:51-EST (Fri)
From: Robert (LISPer DM)Heller <heller.umass-coins@UDel-Relay>
Subject: SciFi on the Tube (or lack thereof)

        One of the main reasons why science fiction serieses don't
seem to last on TV, is simply that they are not very profitable, at
least compaired with, for example, sit-coms.  For the most part, most
contemporary sorts of shows (ie cops&robbers, sit-coms,
doctor&hospital&para-medic dramas, etc.) use props, costumes, & sets
which are "off the self".  If fact, most sit-coms, probably use
costumes, props, etc. right out of Sears & Robuck!  In the case of
science fiction, everything (costumes, props, sets, etc.) must be
custom made (Sears does not sell Klingon uniforms, etc.)  The sets
often need special gadetry in them (blinking console lights, computer
readouts, etc.).  In addition, all sorts of expensive special effects
are needed.

        Another reason is that most of the people you run the TV
industry (corp. exe.'s of TV studios, etc.) may not know very much
about just what science fiction is - many of think that all you need
to do is to take a typical western, and replace the techology - ie
six-guns become lasers, horses become rocket ship fighters, indians
become Klingons, etc. but with the same basic plot (ie the bad guys
capture the girl, the good guys have a shoot-out with the bad guys,
and free the girl, and the chief good guy rides off into the sunset
with the girl....(yawn) -- or else they do things like Lost In Space,
which was just a hybredization of Lassie (complete with June
Lockhart!) & The Swiss Family Robbinson transposed into the 21st
century...

        I have a sugestion for putting good science fiction on TV:
instead of trying to run a one hour per week sort of show (Star Trek,
Battlestart Glactica, etc), how about two to four SEPARATE serieses,
each with a 2-hour movie format, once a month per series, ie sort of
what one of networks did some time ago with McCloud, Columbo,
MacMillin & Wife, etc.  The could fill in the extra week movie slots
with regular movies.  This would give the producers of the shows more
time to do a good job and spread out the money a little better
(espcially if they only do two made-for-TV science fiction
movies/month and use box-office-paid-for movies the rest of the time).

                                Robert Heller
                                heller.umass-coins@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 0556-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: How the Enterprise has changed

        Between the first and second movies, did you notice
the differences in the Enterprise?

1)      Kirk's quarters were much enhanced.  (naturally, since Kirk
just "took over" at the last minute in ST:TMP) But, in TWOK, it looked
as though the stateroom was tailored to Kirk's whims.  Although it was
not stated, could the Enterprise be Admiral Kirk's flagship?

2)      On the bridge: in the first movie, it was stand-up-and-
be-shaken-apart-in-wormhole action.  In TWOK, there were alcoves and
workstations around the place.

3)      Most important: In ST:TMP, to the right of the main
engineering console, ther was a corridor that Kirk and Scotty ran out
of to try to get to the transporter room to override a beamup.  In
TWOK, that corridor was replaced my the intermix reactor chamber in
which Spock died(?)

        How much time did intervene between the two movies?


-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 12:38:38-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Re: Luke's Failure in the Cave - (nf)

If light sabers are powered by the force, this points to Han as the
other, since he's the only non-jedi seen to use a light saber.

Personally, I doubt it.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 12:27:03-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel at Ucb-C70
Subject: OB1 a liar??? - (nf)

There have been two notes recently asserting that OB1 was lying about
Luke's parentage (one in fa.sf-lovers).

What people don't seem to be realizing is that there is a model for
this story.  It is known as the GOOD GUY/BAD GUY model.

OB1, Leia, Chewbacca, Han, et cetera are GOOD GUYS. These people are
kind (if kindness is returned), noble, honest, et cetera. They kill
BAD GUYS.

Darth is a BAD GUY. He kills for pleasure, lies, is deceitful. For
example, he kowtows to the Emperor but later offers to help Luke kill
him for their own benefit. He enjoys strangling people (a nassssty
man, my precious . . .).

BAD GUYS lie. GOOD GUYS tell the truth.

OB1 says that Darth killed Luke's father. Darth says the he IS Luke's
father.

Now, who are you supposed to believe?

                                  Tim McDaniel
                                  (. . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 1982 09:46 PST
From: Morrill at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Luke's hand

        After seeing TESB, a friend of mine questioned the present
where abouts of Luke's hand.  If someone was to retrieve it before the
tissue died, they could, in theory, clone it.  If the other hope is a
character that has not yet been introduced, perhaps its because the
other hope has not yet been born (cloned).

                                                        Toby


p.s. A long time ago, our galaxey was far, far away.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1982 1748-EST
From: DVW.SRB at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: Vader=Luke's father

One viewpoint that no one has mentioned yet is that maybe Vader really
is Luke's father, and Obi-Wan was speaking metaphorically when he said
that Vader killed Luke's dad.  That is, if the Vader personality was
sufficiently different from the Skywalker personality, Obi-Wan may
very well refer to Skywalker being dead, since the person he would
call Skywalker has ceased to exist.  I tend to think this a bit
unlikely though, since I don't believe Lucas would get into anything
so complex.

One other point about the scene on Dagobah:  at one point Yoda says to
Obi-Wan, in reference to Luke, "He is full of anger, just like his
father..."

Also, today's ridiculous suggestion for the other is Dudley Doright.
After all, despite appearing totally mindless, Dudley always gets his
man.  What better way to hide than to appear to be a mindless jerk?

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 18 December 1982  17:56-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Food for thought...........TESB, the 'other, etc.

    Date: 14 Dec 82 11:13:37-PST (Tue)
    From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els
    From: at Ucb-C70
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   Food for thought...........TESB, the 'other, etc.

    .
    .
    .

         There are certain hints that Han is somewhat adept in the
         Force:

    .
    .
    .

The points made in this message are rather intriguing and lead me to a
slightly strange conclusion: Solo does have some mastery of the force,
but has obviously never had any training in it and doesn't seem to
have any deep mastery or understanding of what he does - he is an
'idiot savant' wielder of the force. I think he instinctively uses
parts of the force which are sensible enough to believe in - he is
incredibly 'lucky', but remember 'in my experience, there is no such
thing as luck', so luck is probably just an everyday manifestation of
the force, which some people happen to be blessed with an ability to
control (well, sort of...). What do others think of this slightly
off-the-wall conjecture?


--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 20:31:10-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Alec Guiness

>From: Clayton M. Elwell [...!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc]

The reports of Alec Guiness's death have been greatly exaggerated.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 8:09:48-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxa!claus at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: THE OTHER

        I've been reading arguments on who the 'OTHER' is for the last
month and would like to ask a general question.  Have all nine parts
of the Star Wars series(three sets of trilogies) already been outlined
by George Lucas, or is he just making this up as he goes along?  If
someone else takes over the production of the next movie in the series
will this result in inconsistenties?  And, if the outline for the
entire story does exist, how difficult would it be to obtain it?  Well
I guess I asked three questions instead of one, but I am really
interested in what anyone thinks about this?
        Thanks in advance.
                                Dave Claus
                                BTL/ABI Indy

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 15:35:24-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SW twenty times - (nf)



    I've got to have my eyes checked -- I could swear I just saw an
    article that said someone saw Star Wars TWENTY times!!!!!!!

It must have been a typo. It's obvious that everyone in this newsgroup
has seen SW at least 200 times.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 17:28:32-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!csc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SW twenty times

I was *REALLY* into Star Wars in my younger days...And I have seen it 
twenty-seven (27) times.
        Reminiscing about 90 cent movies...
        Jan Gray ...watmath!csc

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 15:58:15-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!microsof!uw-beave!ubc-visi!majka at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW too many times

A projectionist at a theatre in Halifax, Nova Scotia was taken out of
the theatre in a straight - jacket after he ran screaming out of the
projection room and attacked the screen.  SW/ANH had been showing
there for three months.

                                                     Marc Majka.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 0:28:08-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!duke!unc!mcnc!ncsu!jcz at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SW other again
References: cwruecmp.321

How did the Princess get the 'droid that belonged to Obi-Wan?

The 'other hope' is R2D2!!

--jcz

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 19-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #112
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, December 19, 1982 9:23PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #112
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:
    Authors - Moorcock, Heinlein, Aldiss, Lucas/SW novels
    Misc    - writing SF, bookscores
    T.V.    - SF on the tube (or lack thereof)
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ, The Dark Crystal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 December 1982 1131-EST
From: Jim Anderson at CMU-CS-A
Subject: MOORCOCK RUN ONS

The most likely reason for Mr. Moorcock to write many thin books which
are tenuously linked is that he has enough consideration not to make
it necessary to buy N books to understand whats going on and get
enjoyment from the tale.  This allows each book to be evaluated on
either a stand alone basis, or as part of a more complex whole.  It
all depends on how many books you want to buy and whether you have
time to read a lengthy series.

                                                      Jim(JAOL)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 10:24 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #106

I have missed any previous mention of sex change in SF, so I may be 
duplicating.  Does Heinlein's I WILL FEAR NO EVIL (one I never
bothered to finish) qualify?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 14:21:44-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Perceptions of Reality in SF

   (RE:  Paul Fuqua's comments on reality as only the perceptions of
the observer, SFL 6:101)

     Two other books that deal specifically with the perception of
reality in sf terms are a pair of novels by Brian Aldiss.  The first,
"Barefoot in the Head is set in a post-WWIII Europe which has been
heavily bombed by third-world nations, who used chemical warfare,
specifically long-term, permanent-effect hallucinogens.  When the book
starts, the narrator is as straight as can be, and is watching the
collapse of Western Civilization; by its end, however, the drugs have
gotten to him, and his perceptions are totally altered.
     The other Aldiss novel worth noting in this context is his
"Report on Probability A," which Illuminati fans would love because of
the paranoia that's implicit in the plot premise, viz., that there are
aliens from another time- track (almost the same as ours, but not
quite...) watching us to determine the differences.  Unbeknownst to
them, there are aliens from another .... and so on, ad infinitum.
Very well done, in that understated British style Aldiss does so well.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 17:07:06-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70
Subject: Writing SF

Any aspiring SF writers out there?  Maybe we all are.  I keep hoping 
that just by being on the net a little POURNELLE will rub off on me.  
At any rate, have any of you submitted anything for publication?  What
sort of problems did you encounter?  Any suggestions for those of us
who may try in the future?  What are the pitfalls?  Shortcuts?  Short
stories, or novels?  Are BEMs in, or out?  (That last one may date me
-- I haven't heard 'em called BEMs for years.)

Mike Lynch mhuxi!macrev

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 1982 0933-PST
Subject: SF Bookstores: Moonstone Bookcellars
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

Minor note: Moonstone Bookcellars is near Washington Circle in 
Washington, DC, not Dupont Circle (well, actually, about six blocks
down New Hampshire Ave).  The address is 2145 Pennsylvania Ave,
NW--under the barber shop.

------------------------------

Date: Sun Dec 19 20:17:36 1982
From: decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg@Berkeley
Subject: Re: SciFi on the Tube (or lack thereof)

(...or, "Production and Decay of Strange Articles") Better than having
four series, why not an 'Outer Limits' type format where there is no
need for week-to-week continuity?  Come to think of it, why not bring
back Outer Limits?  Rich

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 10:03:07-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!edp at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW, the books

        The rumor about Alan Dean Foster ghosting STAR WARS is untrue.
In actuallity, Foster wrote a take off on the original SW called 
"Splinter of the Minds Eye", which was not of the same caliber as SW.

        On the subject of the SW books, if you are looking for the 
answers to these questions floating around, read (or re-read) SW +
TESB.  Lucas goes into great detail about (seemingly) trivial things.
There are a couple of prime examples in both books.  For example, in
TESB Boba Fett's uniform is described as the armor worn by of a group
of warriors defeated by the Jedi knights {which might affect (+/-) the
Boba Fett theory}.

        Before I get flamed about Lucas not writing TESB, Lucas did
not actually author it but he did edit the final copy and his style is
prevalent through out the book.

                                floyd!edp

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 7:21:31-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Lucas and SW Novel

There is a widespread rumor to the effect that the novelization of SW
was acually ghosted by Alan Dean Foster.  Anyone have any further
information?

                                        John R Blaker

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1982 0326-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Why Darth COULD be Luke's father.


        In SW/ANH, Obi Wan tells Luke that his father was betrayed and
killed by a young Jedi named Darth Vader.  In TESB, Yoda, I believe
says in effect that the Dark Side can destroy you.

        Now, If Darth is indeed Luke's father, and if he did indeed
give himself up to the Dark Side, then he in effect "killed" and
"betrayed" himself in doing so.

        Maybe that is why Obi Wan was so reticent in telling Luke the
full story, about his greatest failure.

        I still maintain the if Darth is Luke's father, then Obi Wan
is Darth's father.  (And that Han Solo is the "another")

        I don't believe that Darth Vader will come back to the good
side; to do so would be to ruin the best movie villian since the
Wicked Witch of the West.  Darth realizes the importance of order, but
for his own reasons.  I expect that he hopes to become the new
Emperor.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 16:30:21-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: TESB Plot of willson@uci

I just finished reading Stephen Willson extended predictions about the
plot of RotJ.  Emperor and Darth dispatched, "Other" discovered,
Republic re-established, *Deep* *Philosophical* *Meaning* for those
who like such things.  However, it doesn't really leave very much left
to happen in VII, VIII and IX does it?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1982 12:40-EST
From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A
Subject: a new hope

Obviously the newest of the new hopes is . . . James Bond. Those of
you who have only seen James Bond movies may not beleive this, but the
movies aren't about the real James. Fleming's biographies portray a 
perfect other hope. James will make just enough mistakes in the first 
hour of ROTJ to keep the movie going for the requisite 2:02 (or is it 
2:03 ?). James is suave, and will give those of us who are sick of
Twit Skywalker a chance to let our stomachs calm down. The love
triange will no longer be a problem -- James will sleep with a variety
of girls, as he always has, and his true love will still be his
Bentley. And remember, even if his wife is shot, he loses his memory,
gets lost on an island, is brain washed be SMERSH, and spends three
books doing so, he always gets his man.

Finally, when he races races over Darth, brings the Bentley to a halt,
and hops out, the broken mask will reveal that Vader is a clone of . .
.  Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

                                                James

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 18:22:44-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!phr at Ucb-C70
Subject: Dark Crystal Early Report

Dark Crystal opens Friday; a friend of a friend who previewed it
"compared it to the first time she saw 2001."

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 13:41-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: Review: The Dark Crystal

n048  1201  15 Dec 82
BC-REVIEW-''CRYSTAL''
(Newhouse 002)
Film review, for use when ''The Dark Crystal'' opens at local theaters
By RICHARD FREEDMAN
Newhouse News Service
    (UNDATED) In ''The Dark Crystal,'' master Muppeteers Jim Henson
and Frank Oz have themselves a ball filling the screen with assorted
Skeksis, Garthim, Podlings and Landstriders.
    Unfortunately, they're all so ugly and menacing that this
elaborate fantasy film is more like Edwin S. Porter's 1906 ''Dream of
a Rarebit Fiend'' than any of the Muppet movies. In vain one longs for
optimistic Kermit the Frog, to say nothing of that determined Gallic
charmer, Miss Piggy.
    Instead, what we get is a sub-Tolkien epic about hibdibs and
doodads engaged in a mighty confrontation of Good and Evil that boils
down to exactly nothing at all.
    Good is represented by Jen and Kira, the last of the Gelflings, a
race doomed by the buzzardlike Skeksis ever since the Conjunction of
the Three Suns 1,000 years ago. Jen has been raised by the gentle
Mystics; Kira by the Podlings, who carry on like the peasants in a
Brueghel picnic.
    Both hero and heroine look and act like long-eared Barbie dolls.
    But it's their mission to restore the Crystal - which darkened and
cracked - to its original luminous wholeness in time for the next
solar conjunction. Accompanying them is Fizzgig, ''a friendly
monster'' who is all bark and fur and clearly kin to Animal, the
frenetic rock drummer of the Muppets.
    But nothing else in ''The Dark Crystal'' suggests that benign
world originally created by Henson for ''Sesame Street.'' Instead, he
has gone back to the grotesque worlds of such illustrators as
Grandville, Tenniel and Rackham for his inspiration.
    And inspired his creations undoubtedly are, though it's doubtful
many of them will turn up in toy stores next Christmas.
    A banquet of the odious Skeksis, with everyone dribbling and
jabbering at once, resembles nothing so much as a collection of
Hollywood producers and agents feasting at Chasen's. They even have
dessert on the run - but it's the dessert that runs, frantically
trying to escape their voracious jaws.
    Aughra, a mad astronomer with detachable eyes, shows Jen and Kira
around his mechanized planetarium, and the Skeksis' roachlike warriors
pursue them as they ride their long-legged Landstriders.
    Apparently working on the theory that the world has taken to its
heart such weird creatures as the Yoda in ''The Empire Strikes Back''
and even old walnut-head himself, E.T., Henson and company have filled
''The Dark Crystal'' with an assortment of creepie-crawlies and
slithering swamp creatures guaranteed to give any child nightmares for
a week.
    So the result is depressingly like Ralph Bakshi's barely animated
version of ''The Lord of the Rings'' in its relentlessly somber brand
of fantasy.
    Henson can make the woods themselves come to life, but Jen and
Kira are as lifeless as any Disney hero and heroine, and the heroic
endeavor they're engaged in remains dramatically inert and unexciting.
    X X X
    FILM CLIP:
    ''THE DARK CRYSTAL.'' Muppeteer Jim Henson's rather dark and dour
sub-Tolkien fantasy involving the battle between good Gelflings and
evil Skeksis in a mystic woodland filled with a variety of
creepie-crawlies. Highly imaginative creatures, but not much fun to
watch. Rated PG. Two and a half stars.  RB END FREEDMAN (DISTRIBUTED
BY THE FIELD NEWS SERVICE)

nyt-12-15-82 1503est
**********

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 20-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #113
*** EOOH ***
Date: Monday, December 20, 1982 7:35PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #113
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 113

Today's Topics:
    Misc    - Harper's/Klein's attack on SF
    Authors - Clarke interview
    Books   - Haggard's SHE
    Radio   - Dr. Demento
    Movies  - Conquest of Space, SW/TESB/ROTJ, ET's effect on
	      children analyzed
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 16:35:33 EST  (Mon)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Harper's flame

Gads! What's-his-face has odd ideas about sex, for one thing. Anyone 
who thinks that sex is a purely pubescent obsession needs to look
around at the world. As far as I know, EVERYONE above the age of 12 is
interested in sex in some way or another.

I don't know what he misses when he reads SF, but he's missing
something if he thinks you can't have rounded characters. That is one
thing SF is generally judged on - character development. We KNOW there
are books with cardboard characters, but those aren't usually the ones
that last. Maybe we could start a list of books that really do have
deep character development, and send it to him. I doubt he'd be
convinced - it's so easy to see only what you want.  (I put in a vote
for Vonda McIntyre)

Unfortunately, I can't remember all the things that really burned me
up about those exerpts, but I'm sure other people will cover it for
me.

I think What's-his-face just objects to a branch of literature that 
can be >really< optimistic and >really< pessimistic. This is the 
future we're talking about. Most 'modern' books are real downers.
There are no heroes. I like heroes I can admire, people who accomplish
things, and at least try. Maybe he (ol' what's-his- name) just likes
books with ineffectual protagonists, if you can even call them that.
Oh, well, insert a minor flame about Top Ten books here.

                                                - rene

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 12:38:58-EST (Mon)
From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) <earl@BRL>
Subject: Klein's attack on SF

Please, no more flames on Klein's attack on SF.  The guy is looking
for reactions.  The best thing is to ignore it (or write letters to
the editor & see if Harper's will print a synopsis of the results).

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1982 2226-PST
From: Bill <Yeager at SUMEX-AIM>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #107

Well, after hearing about the put down of SF and it fans in
"Harper's", I had this overwhelming urge to do something random. I ran
out to my garage which contains about 300 or so Galaxys, Fantasy and
Science Fiction, and IF magazines going back into the 50's. I closed
my eyes and picked an issue. Then I reclined in bed, and opened to a
random page in the "F and SF" magazine from January, 1966. I read a
wonderful short story by Margaret St. Clair(Who is she?) entitled
"Beaulieu," and fell asleep chuckling to myself...

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 13:18 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #107

Regarding the critical article in Harpers.  The author is either
trying to goad readers into sending in hate mail or is still very much
more into Wee Beesties than literature or science.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 1054-PST
From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER@USC-ECLB>
Subject: Lots of stuff

Notes...

Obi-wan is friend of Leia's father (from the radio show, possibly the
book)

The credits in TESB are for "voice of Emperor," but say nothing about
his appearance

I agree that the sound from laserdiscs is superior to most other
things, but the theater is still the only place to get the big picture
(I really DO like laserdiscs!)

CONQUEST OF SPACE is good a period piece, marred somewhat by stupid 
characterizations and a newsy ("YOU ARE THERE") narration--it should
be generally available on TV, and elsewhere

Another example of attention to detail in SW4 (my favorite): when C3PO
and R2D2 are blasting away in the escape pod, the imperial cruiser's
guns swing around to follow it, and are about to blast it away, until
they scan it and find that there are no LIFE FORMS aboard (the guns
are really small at the bottom of the screen)

About the Harper's article, I agree with Alan Kaminisky, and add that
this is the type of thing that made Harper's go out of business once
(they did, din't they?)

The idea of growing a planet was the subject of an OUTER LIMITS
episode called WOLF 357, where a scientist simulated the development
of a far-off planet in his lab, and was eventually forced to smash the
simulation because a creature was growing out of it that was rather
threatening (hoping to spark some OUTER LIMITS discussion here)

Finally, a guide to the series THE INVADERS is available in FANTASTIC 
TELEVISION by G. Gerani, and is also available in a back issue of
STARLOG (is that a bad word around here?)

As far as I know, the series had no end, and check the guide for any 
prominent writers involved with the series.

Thanks for the ST Chronology (whoever that was)--that was a lot of
typing for somebody!!

John

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 12:05:16-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!intelqa!omsvax!dps at Ucb-C70
Subject: CLARKE INTERVIEW

The New Yorker magazine, Dec 13 issue, has an interview with Arthur C.
Clarke.  Short (only about 4 columns) but a bit off the wall.  Made
during a press tour for "2010", but touching only briefly on that.
More time is spent on what Clarke is doing.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1982 1059-CST
From: marick at DTI (Brian Marick)
Subject: Review -- "She"

"She" by H. Rider Haggard

        I started reading this book more out of historical curiosity
than anything else -- I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as I did.
        A young man named Leo is the latest in a family that can trace
its ancestry back more than two thousand years, to the Egyptian
Kallikrates, who, with his wife, was shipwrecked in Africa, where
Kallikrates was murdered by the white queen of a savage tribe. Two
thousand years later, it appears that the woman still lives...
        The plot is quite predictable, with all the classic elements
-- the mysterious chest to be opened on the 21st birthday, the
shipwreck that leaves the young man, his foster father, and their
servant with only one path to take, the gradual buildup to
catastrophe, the escape of the heroes just before some natural
catastrophe forever eliminates the evidence, and the structure of the
book as a manuscript given to the "editor" to only be published after
the participants' deaths.
        There are other flaws in the book. "She" is only occasionally 
characterized effectively; I would have preferred less of an
adolescent fantasy.  Haggard doesn't think through the effects of
eternal youth.  There are scattered passages of rank anti-semitism.
        Nevertheless, the book's weaknesses are balanced with some
surprising strengths.  Haggard's style is quite interesting -- very
visual and descriptive. It occasionally bogs down, but there are
passages of great beauty and power.
        The best element in the book, though, is Haggard's choice of
an "Everyman" character for the narrator. The book is about the
meeting of two more-than-human characters, Leo the Greek god and
Ayesha of eternal youth and beauty. The reader can identify with
neither of them, so Haggard provides an intelligent outcast.
Competent, likable, but eternally an observer.  (Quite a good
observer, by the way -- there is a lot of detail that does much to
help along the "willing suspension of disbelief".)  At the end of the
book, I'd developed a great affection for Holly; he seemed slightly
dated, somewhat quaint, but all the more likable because of it. In
fact, that really sums up my attitude toward the book.

                                        Brian Marick

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 10:11:20-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jfw at Ucb-C70
Subject: Dr. Demento

When I heard Dr. D. back in Seattle, on KZOK, he also had bleeps, the
same sound, too.  Since these bleeps cover things WCOZ normally plays
without question, I believe it is the Doctor.  I also seem to recall
him stating that he does this himself (likely so that he can [at least
theoretically] play in Podunk...).

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 12:00:01-PST
From: Stuart McLure Cracraft <McLure at SRI-KL>
Subject: ET

BC-ET
(ScienceTimes)
By BRYCE NELSON
c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service
    For many children, at least, the search for extraterrestrial life
may seem superfluous. The Extra-Terrestrial has been among us for
some time.
    Children ask for shirts that read ''E.T. - I Love You'' and want
E.T. toys under the Christmas tree. The phrase ''E.T. phone home''
has entered the nation's patter. Steven Spielberg's ''E.T. The
Extra-Terrestrial,'' after playing only six months, looks as if it
will soon become the biggest movie money-maker of all time, even
ahead of ''Star Wars.''
    What is it about this big-eyed alien from outer space that has so
captured the imagination of America's children and many adults?
Psychologists say that ''E.T.,'' like ancient fairy tales, contains
powerful myths that help give many children confidence to proceed
through the emotional travail of growth.
    ''E.T. is a fairy tale for the preadolescent child,'' those 8 to 12
years old, says Richard Sloves, a clinical instructor in psychiatry
at the Downstate Medical Center of the State University of New York.
    He interviewed 54 New York children aged 8 to 12 immediately after
they saw the film. Although parents report that some children under 8
have been frightened by seeing the movie, all these older children
seemed highly affected and enthusiastic; most were seeing it for the
second or third time.
     Sloves based his research in part on the work of Bruno Bettelheim
and the findings in his book ''The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning
and Importance of Fairy Tales'' (Alfred A. Knopf). The message that
fairy tales convey to the child, Bettelheim wrote, is that ''a
struggle against severe difficulties in life is unavoidable, is an
intrinsic part of human existence - but that if one does not shy
away, but steadfastly meets unexpected and often unjust hardships,
one masters all obstacles and at the end emerges victorious.''
    In Bettelheim's view, today's children, who often grow up in
socially isolated homes, need fairy tales even more than children did
in the era when those tales were first told.
    In ''E.T.,'' they find a fairy tale with special appeal because of
its space-age setting, more relevant to their circumstances than a
story set in a castle.
    ''Our imagination has been totally captured by space travel; we now
use extraterrestrial figures as mythic figures,'' says Elizabeth
Thorne, a New York psychologist. ''We're all on our way; there may be
E.T. out there, or he may be coming to us.''
    As humanity is increasingly forced to consider the possibility of
meeting extraterrestrial life, the character of such creatures
becomes of more concern. Unattractive as E.T. may be physically, he
is totally unaggressive, benevolent and charming. No child need fear
an outer space filled with creatures like E.T.
    The film ''awakens all your desire to believe that you can trust -
that you can reach out to a strange person in a strange land,'' says
Dr. Thorne.
    The film has at least two heroes with whom children can identify -
E.T. himself and Elliott, the 10-year-old boy who finds, nurtures and
saves the winsome alien after he is left behind by his spaceship.
Both E.T. and Elliott have been stranded. Elliott feels alone because
his parents have separated. But he finds a magical friend whom he can
protect and who provides him companionship.
    Children often have a strong need for imaginary playmates, ''someone
who can help them make sense in their switch from their parents to
the outside world,'' according to Jerome Singer, a Yale psychology
professor.
    Sloves first became aware of the power of ''E.T.'' when he learned
that some children had become ill in the final few minutes of the
film, when Elliott and E.T. must part. He found that all of these
children were aged 9 to 11, with fathers who had recently left
because of divorce.
    For all children, especially preadolescents, the film raises the
conflict between the need to grow up and the desire to stay a child.
Elliott decides not to go with E.T. aboard the spaceship, where he
could continue living the fantasy. One of the children interviewed by
Dr. Sloves said that Elliott stayed on earth because ''Elliott has to
grow up and you can't grow up on Jupiter; you stay small and a kid
like E.T.'' Dr. Sloves said that the children interviewed thought of
E.T. as a child of 10 or 11 who missed his parents, though the movie
did not so characterize him.
    Sloves and the other psychologists interviewed said that ''E.T.,''
like other fairy tales, appealed on a number of levels. The movie
offers a portrayal of virtuous children outwitting insensitive
adults, the abandonment of the central character in the early stages
of the story, the successful resolution through a rescue of the
abandoned by benevolent powers, helped by a child who fearlessly
dares to do what is right. The movie also offers the theme of
rebirth, which characterizes many fairy tales.
    The makers of ''E.T.'' have woven with threads also found in many
powerful fantasies - ''Beauty and the Beast,'' ''The Wizard of Oz''
and ''Peter Pan,'' among others. The story is also reminiscent of
''The Three Feathers'' by the Brothers Grimm, in which Dummy wins his
father's kingdom by outwitting his brothers with the help of an ugly
old toad. Put to a final test to bring back the most beautiful woman,
Dummy wins again by choosing a toad who turns into that beauty.
    ''It is, in the final analysis,'' Bettelheim wrote, ''love which
transforms even ugly things into something beautiful. It is ourselves
alone who can turn the primordial, uncouth and most ordinary content
of our unconscious - turnips, mice, toads - into the most refined
products of our mind.''
    
------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 22-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #114
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1982 4:31AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #114
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Dec 1982    Volume 6 : Issue 114

Today's Topics:
    Books    - J. Lieber's BEYOND REJECTION, Crowley's LITTLE, BIG,
	       Chalker's Nathan Brazil in WELL-WORLD, Anthony's
	       NIGHT MARE
    Movies   - SW/TESB/ROTJ the Other, The Dark Crystal
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 18:45:54 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  ``Beyond Rejection'' by Lieber

  From: KRIEGER <KRIEGER@USC-ECLB>

  For those interested in the idea of sex change, et. al., a good
  selection to peruse might be BEYOND REJECTION by Lieber . . .
  I know little about the book except that I have looked at it
  quickly in the bookstore, and read an excerpt . . .

I thought this book was rather poor. The central theme of the book is
the hero(ine) trying to find out who murdered him in his previous
incarnation.  At the end of the book (s)he (and the reader) discovers
that the murder and murderer are part of an elaborate hallucination
arranged to assist him/her in getting accustomed to a new (i.e.:
female) body. After revealing this, the author doesn't bother to
explain how the previous incarnation actually did die.

[Part of the plot sounds suspiciously like the Varley story "The
Phantom of Kansas". --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 20 Dec 1982 20:23-PST
Subject: "Little, Big"
From: obrien at RAND-UNIX

        I just finished reading John Crowley's book "Little, Big",
which I understand was last year's National Fantasy Award winner.  I
was extremely impressed.  This book exhibits a command of language and
mood that (Gene Wolfe aside) I haven't seen since Peake's
"Gormenghast" trilogy.  Highly recommended.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 10:17:52-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!sultan!dag at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Nathan Brazil's Death Toll

In reply to the comment that Nathan Brazil had topped anyone else in 
death toll:

=~ Nathan Brazil did not "kill" all of the non-wellworld inhabitants.
He altered (eliminated) the equation in which they existed.  This did 
not eliminate their souls, though.  When the well was repaired and the
equations re-established, the souls found themselves in new 
exsistances.  I believe that they even remembered what they had been 
previously.  This was done in order to prevent the universe from being
irrevocably destroyed.  Even with this in mind, he was reluctant to do
it, whereas Tarkin and Vader enjoyed (or seemed to enjoy) what they
were up to.  You don't see Vader running away from those who want him
to destroy the rebel alliance.  ~=

Consider though, one "other" that has not been mentioned...  Gypsy!
He shows all of the important attributes of a Jedi.  Like Obie-Wan he 
is able to make others forget that he is there and make them do things
they would otherwise not do.  I will not say what his connection is
with the universe so as not to spoil it for those who have not yet
read the Chalker "Wellworld" series, but it is much the same as the
force.  And he already knows Obie!

                                        Just entering my 2.8 cents
worth,

                                        Daniel Glasser
                                        ...!decvax!sultan!dag

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1982 (Tuesday) 1658-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: Review - "Night Mare" by Piers Anthony

        "Night Mare" is the new Xanth novel by Piers Anthony.  It is
the second Xanth novel to be put out in the last several months (sort
of gives you an idea of the effort involved in write one).  Like the
previous, "Ogre, Ogre," "Night Mare" uses a character which had a
minor role in a previous novel as its main character.  It is Mare
Imbrium, a night mare introduced in Ogre, Ogre.  Unlike the previous,
the story is something that people familiar with Xanth are instantly
interested in.  Mind you, I liked Ogre, Ogre, but the story used
mostly unfamiliar characters involved in a quest that no one (no
readers) really cared about.  Night Mare concerns the newest invasion
of Xanth, the Next Wave.
        Night Mare will certainly appeal to anyone who has read and 
enjoyed the other 5 books of the Magic of Xanth trilogy.  It includes 
almost every character in the other books, and presents them in
favorable, enjoyable lights.  (Finally, come back all the way from
book 2, Bink actually gets to do stuff!)  I think it also will appeal
to people who have not read the other books.  Night Mare is simply a
good, if simplistic, story, with a nasty bad guy and lots of heroics
and mysteries and a happy ending.  The basic story line, without
giving away much, involves the NextWave of Mundanes, attacking Xanth.
The Good King Trent is taken by a mysterious ailment, and Xanth, left
without a ruler, turns to Good King Dor, who is struck by the same
ailment, and Xanth, left without a ruler, turns to Good King Zombie
Master, who is ...  In fact, not only do most old characters appear,
most of them become king at some point.  Regardless, I will reveal no
more.
        There are two major qualities found in all Xanth novels, those
being bad puns and sexism (in fact the latter is pretty common in all 
Anthony books).  They both exist in Night Mare.  There are references
to a mountain pass made by the misstep of a huge giant named Faux,
called the Faux Pass.  A drink with a strong kick (literally) called
Boot Rear.  And so on.  In fact, a couple times characters state that,
"Xanth is built on puns," which is an interesting sort of meta-comment
to see.  Feminism takes some major steps in Xanth, if not in the
authors mind, with the virtual recognition of equal rights for women,
including amongst editorial comments by the author like, "of course
women are always helpless in the presence of a virile male."
        All in all an amusing book, totally without redeeming social 
value, but who really cares.

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 (Monday) 0037-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: The Other (revealed)

This is my first, last, and (obviously) only entry on this topic.  It 
became crystal clear to me tonight who the Other must be.  Lucasfilms 
has said that the Other will be someone who has not had a big part so
far in the series.  They also say that Lando Calrissian (sp?) has a
much more important role in the new movie.  Draw any parallels there?
Making Lando the other would also answer people (to some extent) who 
accuse SW of being racist (i.e. that there are no other black people 
in the movies/universe).  There might not be many, but the ones that 
are around are good.  (An off-the-wall suggestion:  Vader wiped out 
most of the Jedi.  Might this explain the low occurance of blacks?)

                                No more Other from me,

                                        Dan

------------------------------

From: healy.pa @ PARC-MAXC
Date: 21-Dec-82  1:13:08 PST
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #112


I must agree with many of you who have seen the SFL Digest go by @ 300
baud that this can be time consuming.  Perhaps because this is the
first time I have read it at home that rate doesn't repel me too much
I have the inertia to respond.  Dark Crystal (the movie) I intend to
see during the holidays.  I expect to enjoy it immensely despite trhe
review that preceeded this message.  Have we all become so
sophisticated that we cannot enjoyh a good story??  Or good effects \
. . . I for one would vote for a seperate dl. for star wars and one
for star trek and leave sf lovers alone.  I need something between
space dl and reality.  NASA isn't it. . . NYTimes isn't it. . .  I
always thought we were, but we are becoming redundant.  Lets hear from
some other neophytes out there who have good intentions and new inputs
but no goforitness.  Remember...computers don't think, they act on
impulse.

Clark Healy <healy>@PARC MAXC

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1982 (Tuesday) 0739-EDT
From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally)
Subject: A favorable opinion


I have been disappointed by the terrible reviews given to The Dark
Crystal, particularly the NYT review.  Granted, the dinner scene
reminded me of some fraternity banquets I've attended, and the Skesis
were thoroughly hideous.  However, they certainly aren't worse than
arms being cut off by various light sabres, and I doubt that many
children will be up late with Dark Crystal nightmares.  The kids I
know come up with much better excuses to stay up late.

I truly enjoyed the movie.  It was an excellent attempt at muppet-like
animation on a grand scale.  I'll admit that it certainly lacked a 
Lucas, but the plot was not that far below the other fantasy and SF 
movies we spend so many hours talking about.  What it didn't lack was 
imagination in creating a world and the many interesting critters in 
that world.  The land-striders were wonderfully weird, as was the 
scene in the forest where we are treated to something similar to the
Star Wars bar scene.  As far as the way the Podlings carried on, ever
been to a Polish wedding?

One problem I did note was the inability to make eyes "track."  ET and
Yoda weren't subjected to quite so many facial close-ups as were the
Gelflings.  Eyes and mouths are still a large problem for Henson and
his followers to solve.

When you go to see The Dark Crystal, don't expect much deep,
philosophical meaning, just enjoy.

-]Rick

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1982 08:32 CST
From: Johnston.DLOS at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Review: The Dark Crystal

I question whether Richard Freedman actually saw the movie.  I caught
it this past weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I didn't WANT to see
Kermit--I wanted to see fantasy, and Kermit is a little too cutesy,
although I like him in his place.  My big problem is the quote:
"Aughra, a mad astronomer with detachable eyes, shows Jen and Kira
around his mechanized planetarium, and the Skeksis' roachlike warriors
pursue them as they ride their long-legged Landstriders."  Well,
first-off, Aughra is a woman (even has nipples showing through), and
Jen didn't meet Kira until after the Skeksis creatures had destroyed
Aughra's home.  Then the finally got onto the landstriders well after
the encounter with Aughra.  I feel this isn't a review--it's a cheap
income for no effort.

Rick

------------------------------

Date: 21 December 1982 20:42-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: The Dark Crystal

I thought to send this review from Newsweek because it is so succinct.

``The Gelflings Vs. the Skeksis'' [Newsweek, Dec. 27, 1982]

  It takes some optical adjustment to sort out the strange beasties 
that populate @i(The Dark Crystal.)  They include: the Skeksis 
(villainous and vulturelike creatures, with bad table manners); the 
Mystics (gentile, wise and droopily decrepit, with armadillo tails); 
the Garthim (the Skeksis' militia, a metallic mix of beetle and crab);
the Podlings (button-faced ethnic types, clearly derived from happy 
but oppressed southern European peasant stock); Aughra (a one-eyed hag
who's into astronomy, fierce but benevolent); Fizzgig (a 
scene-stealing canine, Toto with extra teeth); the fleet Landstriders 
(towering catfish on stilts), and most important, Jen and Kira, the 
Gelflings (immediately identifiable by their humanoid features as our 
hero and heroine: he looks like Dondi and Bruce Lee reconstituted as a
12-year-old elf, she like Mia Farrow after too much plastic surgery).

  Welcome to Jim Henson's world of wonders, a fantasy pastiche without
a single human in it.  Henson and his gifted designer, Brian Froud (of
``Faeries'' fame), run some wild visions across the screen, but even 
young kids will quickly recognize the story line as a meltdown of
every Mythic Quest from the Greeks to Tolkien to George Lucas.
There's an ancient prophecy to be fulfilled and a young hero armed
with a magical crystal shard who must journey to a dark castle where,
at the time of the Great Conjunction, he must save a divided, dying
world.  Tots of a tender age may be nightmare-prone from this
encounter: the reptilian Skeksis, who drain and drink the vital fluids
of their victims, don't behave like Muppets, though Henson and
codirector Frank Oz make sure that no permanent harm befalls the good
guys.  What grown-ups will make of this depends on your susceptibility
to the genre.  As drama, ``The Dark Crystal'' comes fully alive only
at its rousing climax, and it's hampered by the Ken Doll blandness of
our hero.  As a bestiary, however, it is bountiful--a prodigious and
amusing parade of things that do much more than go bump in the night.

David Ansen [Newsweek reviewer]

------------------------------

Date: 22 December 1982 01:18-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: The Dark Crystal  (movie)

I watched The Dark Crystal last Friday, its release date in the L.A.  
area.  The Muppets are interesting, and nice to watch (yes, even the
bad guys), but the story leaves much to be desired.  The plot is too
simple, too contrived, too haphazard.  The Gelflings (the only
humanoids and presumably the hero and heroine) are silly and hard to
identify with.  If you're into fantasy movies in a big way, or you're
really interested by good animation, see this movie.  Otherwise, you
may be in for a slight disappointment, as it's too thin to make a
story worth repeating.

-- Steve

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #115
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 23, 1982 4:10AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #115
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 115

Today's Topics:
    Authors - Brunner's style
    Themes  - shrinking
    Books   - Bakka bookstore, Snyder's BLACK AND BLUE MAGIC
    T.V.    - Outer Limits, Kung Fu as SF?, Star Trek, Voyagers,
	      Secret Agent, Land of the Giants
    Movies  - E.T. vs The Day the Earth Stood Still, SW/TESB/ROTJ,
	      Conquest of Space
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 14:19:36-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: John Brunner's style

     In SFL 6:110, Mankins mentions the "collage style" used by John
Brunner in "The Sheep Look Up" and "Stand On Zanzibar" (it's also used
in "The Jagged Orbit", the middle book of this series.  Literarily
speaking, this is an intentional steal on Brunner's part from the
classic "U.S.A." trilogy by John dos Passos, which uses the same
mechanisms to describe the Depression.  Brunner's adaptation of this
device to sf is quite well done, by the way, but he's not the
originator.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 14:15:37 EST  (Fri)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: randomness

A good shrinking story: ``A matter of Size'' by Harry Bates in
``Adventures in Time and Space''.

I'm not claiming that this is significant, but there are a few
similarities between E.T. and Klaatu (from ``The Day the Earth Stood
Still''). They both come to Earth, go into hiding, are befriended by a
human, sought out and eventually captured by government agents, die,
are revived and leave Earth after an emotional parting-scene. Granted,
there are even more things different about them, but the similarites
are interesting. Another point: if we assume that what Klaatu was
doing when he made that short speech inside his ship (``Klaatu imray
naruwat . . .'') was communicating with his home planet for help (Aha!
another similarity), and Gort used the same instrument after Patricia
Neal delivered Klaatu's message, then ``Klaatu barada nikto'' may just
mean ``Gort: phone home'' (i.e.: for instructions)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 1214-PST
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Items


   The book Ronen Barzel is looking for is "Black and Blue Magic", by
Zilpha Keatley Snyder.  * * *
   In answer to Will Martin's query about "Conquest of Space":
   This movie has shown at least half a dozen times in the Los Angeles
area in the last ten years, so it's not impossible to find, but
perhaps difficult.  I think it was usually on during a weekday
afternoon.
   The film deals with a flight to Mars to investigate the possibility
of colonization ( not clone-ization!).  The ship departs from 'The
Wheel', the donut-style space station, and drops used fuel tanks
during the voyage.  I think it was based on an actual design of the
time, and was pretty nice.  A lot of the film dealt with interpersonal
character conflicts, tied into the mission ( I believe the rookie-son
accidentally kills the commander- father, so the loyal old-timer
becomes mutinous.).
   There is quite a bit of scientific exposition in the film, but not
to the point of being boring.  It is laced with action, for example as
the crew loses one member to a meteoroid swarm, and runs out of
drinking water just before it begins snowing on Mars.  They wait for
proper juxtaposition of Earth and the red planet ( several months),
and then blast homeward, taking with them some flowers that had
actually grown in the Martian soil.
   I think the film reflected some of the scientific thought of the
day.  It was similar in many ways to Pal's "Destination Moon", being
entertaining as well as thought-provoking.  * * *
   There's a new station out in Anaheim, California, airing "Land of
the Giants" weekdays at 4, and "Secret Agent" on Saturdays.  KDOC,
channel 56.  * * *
   Am I the only one who watches "Voyagers!" instead of "60 Minutes"?
Does anybody else enjoy this show?  It's really quite fun.  * * *
   I submit that Rocket J. Squirrel is the 'other'.  He can levitate 
himself with ease, instantly decrypt secret messages, and mysteriously
appear in Bullwinkle's hat.  He always relies on his own abilities
instead of weapons, and is small and cute like Yoda.  You need not be
told what the 'J.' stands for.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 14:12:14-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Bakka Address & Info

   (Re:  Newcomer's request for info on Bakka; SFL 107)

     Bakka is one of the better sf bookstores, with a good selection
of new and used material from the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK.
They're located at 282 Queen St. West, Toronto M5V 2A1, Ontario,
Canada; phone:  416-596-8161.  If you're on their mailing list, you
receive the "Bakka Bookie Sheet" every so often, which lists what new
items they've received, as well as stuff they expect to be
out-of-print in the near future.  They do mail orders extremely
efficiently, and charge a minimal fee for postage and handling.
     By the way, if you're planning to order stuff from them and live
in the US, place your order by phone and bill it to a major credit
card like Visa or Mastercharge.  It turns out that the currency
exchange is then processed at the rate given to banks (= credit card
companies), which is several percent less than that which you'll pay
if you try to get a money order in Canadian currency.  And, when you
read their prices, remember that (these days) the Canadian $ is worth
about $.85 US.
     Some things worth picking up that you won't find elsewhere are
the group of anthologies edited by John Robert Columbo, an important
Canadian fan and literateur.  His "Other Canadas" is a superb
collection of sf by Canadian writers, and his new "Windigo" is an
excellent anthology of stories on the title topic.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1982 0741-PST
From: First at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: OUTER LIMITS

WOLF 357, the Outer Limits episode referred to by John Krieger, points
out some of the basic problems with this series.  Let me first say
that I think that Outer Limits was one of the best TV series ever, SF
or otherwise.  Besides the SF themes, the photographic style and moody
set designs were more interesting and innovative than many films.
Anyway, the WOLF 357 episde, in which a scientist is growing a
microcosm of a world in his laboratory, had the potential of being an
excellent episde.  The implication was that human -like evolution was
taking place on the planet surface and the scientist had the ability
to view the activities on the planet under a microscope, with the hope
of being able to see the Earth's future--a fascinating idea with its
obvious Pirandellian overtones (i.e. we could be in a similar
situation, under an alien's microscope).  Unfortunately, the plot
digresses and eventually centers on this mysterious monster which
starts terrorizing the scientist and eventually is gotten rid of by
destroying the planet, at the moment when the evolutionary scale had
caught up to Earth.  What a cop out!  (Godzilla Ex Machina?!?)  Many
episodes had similar problems, where interesting SF concepts are
overtaken by monsters.  I believe the reason for this reflects the
continuing SF-LOVERS discussion about SF on TV--the show aired on
ABC-TV (still the sleaziest of the networks) and they required the
producers of Outer Limits to have a "monster a week".  Within that
ridiculous constraint, it is to the producers' credit that the show
was a good as it was.  My favorite episode: "Controlled Experiment",
with Carroll O'Connor as a martian spy doing a controlled experiment
to try to find out the underlying motivations behind violence

--no monsters in this one!
--Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM, FIRST@NLM-MCS)

[I'm a long-time fan of Outer Limits and have collected 24 hours of
the best episodes on video-tape, uncut. I didn't save the episode you
mention, WOLF 357, because I didn't think it was very good.  Yes, the
monster criticism is valid, but often the make-up was so amazing that
a monster-a-week could almost be forgiven. And often the quality of
the direction, atmosphere, and acting were very impressive.  I've
always held the opinion that Outer Limits (at least the first season)
was second only in production quality to The Prisoner as speculative
video-fiction, and far ahead of Twlight Zone, Star Trek, etc.
--Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 1827-PST
Subject: Kung Fu TV series as SF
From: Mike Leavitt <LEAVITT at USC-ISI>

The last thing the list needs now is a new topic, but . . . . I wonder
if anyone has had the same reaction to the old David Carradine series
Kung Fu that I have..  I get the same kind of lift from watching old
episodes that I get from watching a few of the old STs, and I don't
exactly know why.  Last week I saw a repeat that began to give me some
insight, in that Caine acted a bit more like a Superman than he
usually does, and I made that particular connection.  There are very
definite echoes of some Van Vogt.  Has anyone else had similar
reactions?

        Mike <Leavitt at USC-ISI>

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1982 0856-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Kirk, etc

        Has anyone out there see William Shatner's new show, "T. J.
Hooker"?

        Well, it is another cop show, but Shatner pulls it off well..
He is an old vetren of the the force, (no, no, not that FORCE...) who
spends part of his time with the trainees.  As a cop, he is a
no-nonsense type of guy. As a human being, he is full of foiables, as
are we all.

        I like the show.  At last Shatner has another outlet so
diaplay his true acting ability other than Star Trek remakes.  (If you
don't believe the man can act, then you didn't see "The Wrath of
Kahn".  It took me six times to see that movie before I didn't cry at
Spock's funeral..)

        Interesting point: in one of the earlier episodes of "Hooker",
Vic Tayback, (Mel on "Alice", better known as JoJo Kracko in "A Piece
of the Action") made a guest appearance.

        Now, if they could get Nimoy as a guest star.  Wow BUT, What a
trip, if in addition to Nimoy, they got DeForrest Kelly, Jimmy Doohan,
Walter Koenig, George Takaei, Nichelle Nichols and Majel Barrett in a
show.  Even playing bit parts, it would blow alot of folks away.  It
would probably blow "Hooker" into the top 10 at least for a couple of
weeks.

        Hooker is alot like Kirk.  Maybe that is why Shatner is so
good at playing "autocratic leaders".  They both go by the book, until
it suits them to do otherwise.

        It is truly a trip here i the Bay Area, watching Star Trek at
7:00 PM, then watching Hooker from 8:00 to 9:00.  Same man, but 15
years later.  Ya'know, he's not getting older; he's getting better.

-HWM

[Supposedly Nimoy *will* guest star on a T.J. Hooker episode. They
showed a brief clip. He and Shatner will be antagonists. --Stuart]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 12:58:20-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxx!marks at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: The Emperor

I'm not surprised that the credits showed the Emperor played by
someone else.  I seem to recall that Alec Guiness died sometime after
SW was filmed.  Am I all wet or what?

Mark Beckner Bell Labs

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 16:54:19-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5d!hou5a!hou5e!jjm at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back

        The Emperor in TESB was played by an English actor
        named Clive Reville (sp?).

        I have seen him in other movies, so this is not
        a fake name.

        Despite a previous news item, Alec Guiness is not dead.
        (Anyone who saw the recent TV movie "Smiley's People"
        knows that.)

        Jim McParland
        BTL - Holmdel
        hou5e!jjm

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1982 (Wednesday) 2347-EDT
From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear)
Subject: Voice of the Emperor

Clive Revill (People were looking at me funny when they saw me take
notes at the movie theatre, but damned if I can remember that name.)

                                        Dan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 09:41:31 EST  (Mon)
From: Craig Stanfill <craig.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Luke's Light Sabre

If Han Solo's attitude towards Light Sabres is indicitave of the 
general sentiment towards the weapon, I expect Luke can pick one up at
a flea market or third hand junk shop for a few credits.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 10:51:45 EST  (Mon)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: more decompression and luke's hand

1) Well, the problem of explosive decompression was solved once and 
for all in 'Airplane II: the Sequel'. Kent McCord and the other guy 
(sorry, don't remember his name) were sucked out of the airlock and 
danced a last waltz together to the tune of 'Blue Danube'.  Neither 
looked exploded or messy in any way. So there you have it.  Of course,
they also had air on the moon ...

2) I thought that Luke would be killed in RoTJ even before Lucas
mentioned 'the [one] survivor' of the second (current) trilogy. There
are elements of Norse mythology in the Star Wars movies. For instance,
in 'The Beowulf', Beowulf has three encounters with evil forces.  The
first, with Grendel, he wins handily, and there is wide celebration.  
The second, with Grendel's dam, he barely wins with outside help (the 
sudden appearance of a magical sword). The third, with the dragon, he 
barely kills with the help of his one faithful retainer, but he is 
mortally wounded, and dies. Also, in the first, Grendel comes to his 
world. He seeks out Grendel's dam in her world, and almost dies.  
Anyway, Lucas seems to be in to mythological stories. There is also 
Tyr, who lost his hand to the wolf Fenrir. Losing a hand sometimes 
symbolizes losing one's humanity. Tolkien used mythology heavily in 
his tragic stories - Morgoth and (I think) Beren, and of course Frodo 
loses a finger. Also (one more) people who learn about themselves, who
become whole through their experiences, tend to die in the Heroic
Tradition.  Boromir, Beowulf, and Frodo (who dies for all intents and
purposes), and Spock, and others (sorry, it's been over a year since
my Northern Mythology course - I don't remember all the characters -
any mythology buffs out there?). Anyway, the point of my rather
rambling discourse is that when the third movie comes out, there are
sure to be lots of mythological roots to be found in the trilogy (and
in the others as well).  Anyway.

                                                - rene

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 16:21:21 EST  (Tue)
From: Speaker-To-Animals <speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Light Saber Power Source.

The Light Saber is NOT powered by the force.  In the book, Luke 
examines the Light Saber Obi-Wan gives him and notes that the rating 
on the power cell is the largest he has ever seen on a device this
size.

Clearly the Light Saber needs batteries.

                                                        - Speaker

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 14:08:15 EST  (Mon)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: detection of good and evil in the Force

Ah, but Good CAN be detected - Darth Vader detected Obi-wan on the
Death Star ("I feel a presence in the force, someone I have not
detected since...." not an exact quote, but you get the idea.)

                                                - rene

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 18:32:41-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc.

I think the force is with Han Solo, too - although he's not the other.

I should point out however that Han did NOT hit Darth Vader in the
death star battle.  He hit Vader's wingman, and that ship went out of
control and crashed into Vader's ship.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 23-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #116
*** EOOH ***
Date: Thursday, December 23, 1982 10:40PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #116
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 24 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
    Query   - sex change story
    Books   - bookstores
    Misc    - puppets, Ernie Kovacs, Filk
    Movies  - Fantastic Voyage, SW/TESB/ROTJ, Dark Crystal, E.T,
              The Day the Earth Stood Still
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1982 09:21 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #114

The subject of sex change in science fiction reminded me of a short
story [or short novel (novelette? novella?)] concerning a girl who has
an illegitmate child, who goes to an orphanage and grows up to be a
girl who has an illegitimate child and then being morphaditic, loses
her female genitalia and developes her male genitals, becomes a time
travel agent who goes back to have a sexual interlude with the girl
who had the illigitimate child and then lost her female genitalia,
becoming his/her own mother/father/daughter...

The above paragraph is a result of the fact that I'm not sure where to
break in on a paradox of this sort.  At any rate, I've been trying to
remember author and title and source, with negative results.  (Bet I'm
not the only science fiction reader who's done a mental inventory, at
1 a.m., of items read, trying to come up with this kind of info.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Dec 82 19:27:11-EST
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ@NLM-MCS.ARPA>
Subject: good bookstores and "the other"

re: good sf bookstores

Chaos Unlimited is the best used SF bookstore I know of in the D.C.
area.  It is located a few blocks south of chevy chase circle at 3809
McKinley St.  (phone: 202-244-2710).  Despite the title the shelves
are very organized (alphabetically by author).  The stock consists
entirely of SF/fantasy and mysteries.

re: "the other"

Since the other will be featured in the next series of SW movies
(especially SW3, cf: the excerpt of the Rolling Stone interview with
Lucas in SF-LOVERS V6 #92), has anyone considered that "the other"
might be another muppet-like character (ala Yoda)?  After all, SW3
isn't for another 6 years yet and a lot could happen to a human actor
over that period.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 1982 1534-EST
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Science Fiction puppets/Ernie Kovacs

On one of the late Ernie Kovacs' early programs (in the late 50s or
early 60s) there was a continuing puppet segment with a science
fiction theme, using household utensils as characters. As I remember,
the hero was a funnel who was at one point battling the menace of the
"Sponge Men". Does anyone remember the name of the hero and any more
details? (Mention of the sponge men was always accompanied by a
gurgling sound.)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 14:16:05-EST (Tue)
From: David Axler <axler.upenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: "Filk"

     Minor correction -- "Filk" is not short for 'filksing', but
rather for 'filksOng'.  The term arose, it's claimed (by Dick Eney's
"Fancyclopedia"), to describe "...fannish songs in the ilk of
folksongs...", which covers a lot of territory.  "Filksinging" is the
act of singing filksongs, while a "filksing" is the event at which
filksinging occurs as the main activity, since its a thing found all
over at many conventions -- in the corridors, at parties, and (once in
a while) in the rooms that were specifically set aside for it....

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1982 15:32:32 CST (Wednesday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Changes in the Enterprise

A while back, somebody pointed out that the Enterprise seemed to have
changed a great deal from the series to TMP to TWOK.  `The Menagerie'
just ran yesterday, and we got to see pictures of the Enterprise `13
years ago.'

It seems to have changed in that time span, also: the captains chair
wasn't elevated, the captains cabin was noticable different (more
curves, etc), and the crew was only 203 people. Not to mention those
goosenecked lamps that went away shortly after the first few
episodes...

        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 1982 19:53 EST
From: Sewhuk.HENR at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage shrinking stuff

About the water in the hypo, I believe they floated/dived down to the
end of the needle and only a small amount of "shrunk" water was
actually injected.  As I recall another point of the shink "timer" had
to do with the "uncertainty" when shrunk the degree they were shrunk
to.  The water was not shrunk as much as the ship and people and
probably not un-shink as soon allowing the doctors to bleed Benes of
the extra fluid as it grew.

Not absolutely certain about this, but I seem to remember seeing
shrapnel of the ship on the floor with the people when they grew.
This information could be tainted because I read the book also and I
know it made a point about the white corpuscle being lead out to the
eye so they could remove the ship before it grew.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 1503-EST
From: Tony <Li at RUTGERS>
Subject: Funny guys in white armor.


Can anyone remeber an instance where the white armor worm by the 
Empire's stormtroopers did any good? Why do they still have it?

Tony

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 14:15:14-EST (Wed)
From: J C Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: ROTJ: planetfall on Endor


THe oldest source of the name Endor that I know of is the reference to
the Witch of Endor in the Old Testament, in (I believe) the Book of
Kings.  She was a seer and one of the kings of Israel (Saul ?) visited
her to receive her prophesies.

remain in light,

jcpatilla

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 1982 2220-EST
From: Mike First <FIRST at NLM-MCS>
Subject: SW VII, VIII and IX

Whose idea was it to speculate on SW VII, VII and IX?  Isn't the month
of speculation over RotJ enough?  Anyway, for those diehards, it is my
understanding that NONE of the characters in the middle trilogy will
be carried over to the last trilogy (except maybe Yoda or the
Emporer).  The last trilogy is expected to take place considerably
later in time so it is quite possible that all ends can be nicely tied
up in RotJ without any need for more unsolved questions.  Also, isn't
it true that the last trilogy will only be produced after the first
trilogy is completed, making the release date of SW VII May 1991.  
Will Lucas (or anybody else) really care anymore?
--Michael (FIRST@NLM-MCS)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 15:26:20-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Star Wars, Empire, RotJ, etc. :-)

>From: Clayton M. Elwell [...!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc]

"Previews, Plotlines, Spoilers, Inside Knowledge... A true Jedi craves
not
 these things..."

------------------------------

Date: 23 December 1982  21:50-EST (Thursday)
From: Matthew J Lecin <LECIN at RU-GREEN>
Subject: The Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back
Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers

Clive Revill is the VOICE of the emperor...  supposedly the face was 
some 86 year old Californian grandmother...

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1982 2352-EST
From: Hobbit <AWalker at RUTGERS>
Subject: Dark Crystal

I enjoyed DC also, primarily for the visual effects.  I mean, there is
just so much to *look* at.  The slow pan around the swamp where Jen 
meets Kira shows props that must have taken days to set up, just for a
few seconds of film, and it all *moves* and does *weird* things.  
Everything has lots of detail.  It was a bit like Bladerunner - if you
can bear with a somewhat lacking plot, it is a visual feast.  I intend
to go see it again just to spot what I missed the first time.

_H*

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 19 December 1982  01:44-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: light saber

 Date: 13 Dec 82 13:02:42-PST (Mon)
 From: avsdS.steve at, Ucb-C70
 To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
 Re:   light saber

    .
    .
    .

 Current military customs usually provide for the wearing of the dress
 sword only on special occasions. How practicle would a sword (or even
 a light saber) be in stopping an opponent at 50 yards?

I believe that a light saber actually could be useful at least for
defending one's self at 50 yards. Given that the majority of weapons
in use are of the enery/blaster type shown in SW, and given the
ability of a Jedi (or someone with at least Vader's mastery of the
force) to predict weapon shots (cf. Vader's ability to block Solo's
blaster shots in TESB), a light saber can probably be used to parry or
block shots.

------------------------------

Date: Mon Dec 20 12:20:28 1982
From: decvax!duke!ndd@Berkeley
Subject: SW, TESB, etc., ad nauseum


        'Colon Wars' may not be the correct term for the conflict of 
the past in Star Wars, et. al., but it is definitely fitting for this 
b--- s--- discussion on the digest.


                                Ned 'who cares' Danieley
                                duke!ndd

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 21:24:54 EST (Wednesday)
From: Ben Littauer <littauer at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #105

I don't quite understand all the foofraw about the light sabers.  My
understanding of the situation was that the light saber is an outmoded
weapon -- though it still might be considered extremely powerful in
the right (or wromg) hands.  Somethig like a sword is today.  Thus,
although it might be a little difficult to find a lioght saber in your
corner weapons shop, it is not as if only a Jedi Knight is
allowed/able to have one.  From the discussion so far one would have
the impression that the light saber is some kind of mystical weapon...
                            -ben-

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 1982 1334-PST
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Re-Release of "The Empire Strikes Back"

I remember the folks from Lucasfilms saying that they were going to 
re-release it around Christmastime.  Does anyone remember the exact 
date?  I believe it was the 23rd or 24th (i.e., any day now), and I 
very BADLY want to see it when it comes out on the first night.

Thanks, Lynn FIGMO@KESTREL

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 82 15:58:35 EST  (Thu)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Similarity between ``E.T.'' and ``The Day the Earth Stood
Subject: Still''

It seems that these two movies have several plot details in common.
Consider:  both movies are about an alien who comes to Earth and goes
into hiding from government agents. The aliens are each befriended by
a young boy and his widowed/divorced mother. They each borrow
something from the boy to use to communicate with their ship. They
both have remarkable healing powers and can manipulate objects in
mysterious ways. They both are eventually captured by the government
agents and die, but are revived shortly thereafter as the result of a
message delivered with the aid of their human friends, where the
delivery of the message is a critical point in the plot. They both are
returned to their ships, and return safely to space after an emotional
farewell scene.

The big difference between the movies is that Klaatu and E.T. came to
Earth for entirely different reasons.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 19:50:50 EST  (Wed)
From: speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: Correction to your correction of your correction of...

 Date: 30 Nov 1982  8:18:35 EST (Tuesday)
 From: Drew M. Powles <dpowles at BBN-UNIX>
 Subject: childhood's end...possibly a spoiler

 to Don Voreck:  correction on the correction of your correction ,etc.

 Read your book again.......They do not leave in spaceships.  The
 centaur creatures leave the earth after they have done their part:

Centaurs?  Where'd you get centaurs?

Clarke describes the Overlords as resembling Satan.  That way he can
explain man's depiction of Satan and his minions as race memorys...
except the traumatic memory of the Overlords rippled back in time, not
forward.

                                                        - Speaker

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 8:10:21-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdS.steve at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: re: SW

What is unusual about seeing Star Wars more than once?

I saw it twice when it first came out, shipped out on WESTPAC and saw 
it again when we stopped in Pearl Harbor, came back after a year and 
saw it again in San Francidsco, went up to Seattle and saw it again
with Close Encounters (actuually, we walked out of one theater and
into another).

Since then I've aquired a cassette of it and play it when my
three-year old gets on his SW kick (he even had a Boba Fett before I
knew who Boba Fett was!!).

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 1982 1727-EST
From: Tony <Li at RUTGERS>
Subject: Philosophy behind the Force...


I've always thought that the force was a derivative of Tai Chi.  I'm
no expert, but supposedly, the Chi permeates all things, and there is
a balance of Chi throughout nature. When Chi is out of balance, you
flow with the imbalance to create a new balance. It is a form of
exercise in China, and, secondarily, a means of self defense.

Is there anyone out there who knows some more on this?  Tony ;-)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 26-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #117
*** EOOH ***
Date: Sunday, December 26, 1982 6:39AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #117
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 26 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 117

Today's Topics:
    Misc    - MIT archives, review of SFL
    Stories - Gauger's The Vacuum-Packed Picnic, Heinlein's All You
	      Zombies
    T.V.    - Lost in Space, Invaders, Star Trek
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ
    Humor   - HHGttN #3
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 1982 0511-EST
From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC
Subject: New Archives

Coming soon! To a branch of the MIT SF Society (MITSFS) near me!
The hardcopy of the SF-L archives!

Yep, i'm assembling a formatted version of the archives to
be left in the special reserve section of the MITSFS.  Based
on my copious spare time :-) i'm projecting that volumes
5 and 6 (Jan through Nov 1982) will be available by this Monday
the 20th, with more to follow assuming the ARPAnet doesn't
self-destruct on Jan. 1.  If anyone is interested in FTPing
scribe formatted files of the archives, send mail to me and
i'll let you know when they are complete.

Finally, pseudo-simultaneous with the hardcopying, i'm trying
to create edited versions of the archives, deleting temporal
based info (HHGttG is on at 7pm Tuesday in Nome, Alaska),
near identical submissions, and ordering by subject then date,
as opposed to the archive date then subject.  Just imagine;
all the Pac-Man and Raiders puns in one file!  I'll notify
the net when these are finished.

tom galloway
TYG@MIT-MC
TYG.MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
decvax!genradbo!mitccc!tyg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 1982 15:36:15 CST (Wednesday)
From: Mike Meyer <mwm at OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Review of SFL

First, I would like to thank our moderator for putting the SW messages
[nearly] at the end of the list. This makes it easy to interrupt out
of them.

Second, I'd like to second (third? nthed?) the notion of creating a
separate list for SW/* - or possibly a more general movie list, to
which all those [*** censored by net, but included three lines of
imaginative exploration of interbeing relationships & family trees
***] AP/UPI bulletins can go.  (I will resist the temptation to
suggest a name for that list...)

I mean, none of the SW/movie reviews schlock rightly belongs in a
discussion of Speculative Fiction!

        With asbestos ready,
        <mike

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 21:58:37 EST  (Wed)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>

  From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC

  I can recall a story about a couple "walking" a bubble-tent back
  to a moon base after a picnic in the nude, and getting a bad
  sunburn in the process.  I don't remember the name or author.

This was ``The Vacuum-Packed Picnic'' by Rick Gauger, published in the
September '79 ``OMNI'' (page 94).

------------------------------

Date: 24 December 1982  08:37-EST (Friday)
From: Matthew J Lecin <LECIN at RU-GREEN>
Subject: sex change (SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #114)  (GMeredith.ES at
Subject: PARC-MAXC)
Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers

I think it is obvious you are talking about "All You Zombies" by 
Robert Heinlein.  This short story can be found in a collection of 
stories called "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag", which I 
believe is also known as "6 X H"...

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 22 December 1982 01:07-EST
From: Greg Skinner <GDS @ MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #105

        Does anyone out there possess, or know of, a Lost in Space 
trivia book?

        In addition, does anyone out there have a listing of all the 
Lost in Space episodes?

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24 December 1982  15:31-EST
From: RP at SCRC-TENEX
Subject: "Invaders" TV series query

I always enjoyed this series and thought the suspense and interest was
maintained despite the predictable plots.

However, I believe that David Vincent does "convince a disbelieving
world that the nightmare has already begun". I can remember several
episodes where others learn the 'truth' and my impression is that
David is successful.  Can anyone back me up?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 1982 19:51-PST
From: txr%usc-cse@USC-ECL
Subject: Re: Plot "defect" in City on the Edge of Forever
Reply-to: txr@USC-ECL

The problem of the tricorder recordings is easily solved with only a 
little imagination.  It's true that when McCoy jumps through the 
display stops, but does it stop immediately?  An extra small fraction 
of a second could easily account for the extra year or two of history 
recorded.  As far as that goes, there is no guarantee that the history
display is strictly linear -- it might track some events for a while 
and then "back up" to another major thread in the fabric of history.

A similar idea explains how they got the alternate histories.  The 
guardian displays not only what the past was but what it might have 
been.  Only one recording need have been made to have *both* 
alternative pasts in it, one with McCoy and one without.  (After all, 
didn't both "already happen"?)  When making the first tricorder 
recording, and before McCoy jumped, there are already the images of 
both histories within the guardian, even though only one of them 
"happened."  Didn't the guardian say early on in the episode something
like "what was, what will be, what might have been"?

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 24-Dec-82 10:00-PST
From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3
Subject: Re: Henry Miller's "Kirk, etc"

And, of course, you know that when trying to figure out what "T. J."
stands for, the fen immediately came up with "Tiberius James", right?
-Rich

------------------------------

Date: 25 December 1982 1717-EST
From: Jim Anderson at CMU-CS-A
Subject: Knit Picking and Weapons

        Title this "Annoyed at knit picking."  Anyone who knows
ANYTHING about military equipment, especially ships or planes , should
know that it is extremely common to retrofit such equipment with the 
latest equipment as it becomes available.  The Enterprise is supposed
to be overhauled on a regular basis, allowing installation of newer
equipment, as wellas permitting Star Fleet to correct any design
errors discover since the last overhaul.

        Also I agree with -ben- and Vaf on the subject of light
sabers, it is probably the lack of range and the long training time
needed to be proficient with a light saber that keep it from being a
more popular weapon.  It is similarto the longbow being outmoded by
the crossbow because the crossbow was easier tolearn.  The defensive
abilities of the light saber are probably almost totally useless to
some one who has not had extreme amounts of training in the
mystical/martial arts, such as the Force.  On the armor worn by Storm
Troopers I would like to point out that the observation of it being
useless is quite wrong.  If you watch closely enough you can see that
only blast which hit at an oblique angle penetrate the armor, with
blasts that hit curved sections being more oftendeflected then blasts
which hit flatter areas such as the chest or back.  This type of armor
is probably made of composite materials, like the armor used on many
tanks today.  It is probably a lot more efficient, given the superior 
tech level of the S.W. galaxy.  The armor probably has a lot of extra
features such as atmosphere control and supply(notice the similarity
of the helmet to a modern gas mask),blast and radiation
protection,various sensory improvement and extension devices, as well
as a radio and other assorted goodies.  Also keep in mind that these
are "Storm Troopers", the Empires equivelent of the S.S., their 
mentality would tend toward armor, even if only for the scare value it
has.

                                                                Jim

P.s. The light saber is also shown being used to parry blaster shots
in the original Star Wars in the scene on the Milenium Falcon where
Luke is being instructed in the defensive prospects of the extension
of sensory capabilities provided by employing The Force.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 20:02:17 EST  (Mon)
From: Fred Blonder <fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: THE OTHER

        From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxa!claus at Ucb-C70

        Have all nine parts of the Star Wars series already been
        outlined by George Lucas, or is he just making this up as he
        goes along?
                                        Dave Claus
                                        BTL/ABI Indy
        ------------------------------

As I understand it: all nine movies exist as at least a one-page draft
which no-one other than Lucas is likely to see unless something nasty
happens which would require someone else to take over.

------------------------------

Date: 19 December 1982  02:22-EST (Sunday)
From: Matthew J Lecin <LECIN at RU-GREEN>
Subject: HGttG
Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers

Just a small trivia point:

in the last episode (7) of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (which
just aired this week in the NYC area) we meet up with the 
Golgafrinchans (sp?)...

Did anyone besides me recognize their Captain to be the same actor 
(name escapes me at the moment) who played Mr. Deltoid in "A Clockwork
Orange"?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 1982 0630-PST
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: hh 3

***** sri-unix:net.jokes / grkermit!markm / 12:54 pm  Dec  9, 1982

					 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
					  Episode 3 - The Singularans


(Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are trying to decide what
to do now that they are being faced by the deadly Singularans.)

Xaphod:	Oh wow, just when we got past the Flamers, we have to run
	into the 'Singles'. The Illogical drive won't work this time.
Rod:	No, and neither will evasive actions. They all talk that way!
Gillian:	What will we do then?
Arnold Lint:	I'll tell you . . . we're all going to die.
Xaphod:	Shut your cake-hole!
Martin:	I tried to tell you this trip would be a real downer, but
	would you listen?
Rod:	Quiet!
Xaphod:	I guess we should see what they want.

(Xaphod switches on the two way video telecommunicator and RadaRange.
The face of the Singularan captain appears on the screen.  He is a
normal human wearing a T-shirt which says: "Have you ever really
listened to Manilow?" He is also sporting glow in the dark pants and
10 pounds of silver and gold chains arount his neck.)

Singularan:	Hey, like I'm Dirk Thawtphull. We were cruising by and
    saw your node. Interested in some meaningful relationships, free
    from the moral depravity that otherwise infects the net. 
Xaphod:	Well, I kind of like depravity.
Rod:	Yah, me too.
Dirk:	Wow, you'd love our S & M encounter group then, fershure!
Arnold Lint:	Your what?
Dirk:	S & M encounter group. We get together twice a week and
	exchange recipes and beatings.
Arnold Lint:	How could a group like that command such a strong
	node?
Xaphod:	Well, the sudden popularity of Jogging induced widespread
  adoption of the principles of Single-ism. The subsequent rise of the
  sport of 'Joggering' reduced the numbers of Singularans to normal
  size. It appears that they may be making a come back though.

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines 'Joggering' as a sport
originated in Australia to combat the sudden drop in productivity
caused by having everybody jogging. Australian champion Bruce Karnage
describes the sport: "Well, there is a different way of catching both
male and female joggers. If it's a male, you flush him out into the
open with cigarette smoke, then chase him down in your 4 x 4 Land
Rover. When he's tired, bump him with the fender to stun him
momentarily. Then get out and with your driver pick him up by all
fours and run him head-first into the side of the truck. If it's a
female, bait a likely spot with designer jogging wear and then wait
for a flock to arrive. When one becomes interested, sneak up behind
her, very quietly. Then when you are about two feet away, and you can
see the sun dancing on her richly tanned flesh carressing her well
toned figure into a visual symphony of delight, split her skull with
a handy two-by-four. It's a lovely sport!" The sport later became
known as 'Walkmaning'.]

Rod:  We were on our way to Netrothea to pick up some ... uh ...
  fuel, yah that's it.
Dirk:  Well, we've got plenty of fuel, come on over and we'll let
  you have it.
Xaphod:  No, it's OK.
Dirk:  I insist!

(The Singularan ship lets out a pink and purple polka-dot ray that
engulfs the Infinity. Arnold Lint and company find themselves in a
room on the Singularan ship. It is decorated right out off the floor
of a K-Mart. K-Tel's "Feelings" album is playing "You light up my
existence" in the background, on the ceiling is a gigantic mirror,
and in one corner is a gigantic mood-bean-bag chair.)

Gillian:  How awful!
Martin:  Actually, I kind of like it, in a depressing sort of way.
Rod:  Quiet.
Arnold Lint:  Where are we.
Dirk:  You're aboard the Singularan vessel "Sincerity". You will
  remain here until you learn to develop meaningful relationships over
 the Net. Meaningful relationships based on honesty, truth, and having
 nothing to do with physical appearance. Relationships which will grow
  as you and your partner, or partners, share, or don't share, things
  you have, or don't have, in common. You will learn how to have
  every other  sentence include the words 'special' or 'meaningful
  relationship'.
Xaphod:  If he says "meaningful relationship" once more I'll have to
  pray to the porcellan buddha.
Rod:  Sickening, isn't it.
Dirk:  Right, enough of this. Wait here and we'll start programming
  you for meaningful relationships.

(Xaphod bends over a nearby table and vomits, the 12" CRT on his
shoulder starts scrolling "Uuuggghhh")

Gillian:  What did you mean about "programming" us?
Dirk:  We'll have to make you compatible with the environment and
  take away all your inhibitions when discussing your personal life on
  the Net. You'll be subjected to countless sessions watching
  repeats of "The Dating Game", "The Newlywed Game", and "Celebrity
  Wife Swapping". And that's only Stage 1!

[The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the three old
earth TV shows just mentioned were actually the basis for a huge
inter-conglomerate stock monopolizing sceme started by The Phone
Company. The questions asked on these shows were actually coded
messages issued by The Phone Company to the conglomerates it was
working with. These messages told the associated conglomerates about
which stocks to buy based on information gained by The Phone Company
by listening in on the phones of importanat companies. The client
corporations paid The Phone Company 1 million dollars for each such
message.  The seemingly idiotic contestants were, more often than
not, government agents trying to break The Phone Company's code.
Chuck Barris, the originator of the shows, was later found to be a
financial genius, rivaled only by Howard Hughes.]

Rod:  We gotta get put of here!
Xaphod:  Yah.
Rod:  You know what really gets Singularans put off? Rudeness and
  crudeness!
Arnold Lint:  What?
Rod: Rudeness, if we act real crude and rude, they'll beg us to leave!
Xaphod:  Great, let's try it!

(Dirk returns with three gorgeous women and one well built female
model andriod.)

Rod:  (To the first girl) Wow, look at that pair!
Xaphod:  (To the second girl) That's a lovely grab!
Rod:  (To the third girl) OK love, drop 'em!
Martin:  (To the female android) I wave my private parts toward
  approximate vector coordinates.
Gillian:  (To Dirk) Say Dirk, if you get some Saran-Wrap and
  chicken wire, I'll get the honey and the plunger.
Dirk:  Get out of here you disgusting filthly maladjusted perverts!

(The three women and one andriod exit with great haste. The crew of
the Infinity is beamed back to their node.)

Dirk:  Good riddens. Put on the flip side of  "Feelings" and pass
  the cheese dip. It's their loss, for only we know what true
  meaningful relationships are. Only we know the feeling of wholeness
  that comes from showing, or not showing, what one feels, or doesn't
  feel, with someone special we care about. We aren't hung up on
  physical things, we are spiritualists. At least, that's what we tell
  everyone else.  

Xaphod:  Right, now on to Netrothea, nothing can stop us now.

    ******************** End Of Part 3 ********************

Will the crew of the Infinity reach Netrothea, or will Nothing stop
them? For the answers to this, and other useless questions . . . Tune
in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 28-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #118
*** EOOH ***
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1982 5:45AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #118
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:
    Books   - J. Lieber's BEYOND REJECTION
    Query   - F. Lieber's doings
    Misc    - Harper's attack
    Movies  - The Dark Cystal, SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 16:33:58-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!rb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: misc.

I read BEYOND REJECTION a while back.  It's entertaining, but nothing 
stupendous.  I didn't find it very mind-expanding.

Ronen

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 82 10:12:38-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!kramer at Ucb-C70
Subject: Fritz Lieber

Does any one know what, if anything, Fritz Lieber has been writing
recently?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 9:48:00-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.retief at
From: Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine

  Mr. Arny Klein is most obviously a BIG jerk and I doubt he has ever
read a complete SF book (instead of reading the inside jacket.)  There
really isn't much to flame about, because anyone who has read SF can
easily see that Mr. Klein a big mouth and, surely, has big shoes to
stick in it.
                Dwight

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 18:04:46-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!trb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine

It is with great fear that I post this message, but I have always let 
my feelings on non-asinine issues be known, so...

I find the childish reactions (over this medium) to the Harpers
article laughable.  If the guy was accurate then he was accurate.  If
he was inaccurate then he was inaccurate.  But SF fandom must rear its
macho head in defense of the wrongs (right or wrong) that this fellow
has committed.

I am not an SF fanatic, and I am not a Harpers reader.  I have read a 
small bit of SF, and I have found the classic works satisfying and the
trash disappointing.  I see that there are many SF fans who chew
through SF pulp as though it was their sole subsistence.  I see people
involved in SF who appear every bit as addicted to it as others are
addicted to drugs and alcohol.

I'm not saying that all SF is trash, but I AM saying that much SF is 
trash, much of any literary genre is trash.  Trouble is that the
really hungry SF fiends buy and defend this trash, and when someone
attacks the mass of SF work as a whole, they get offended, rather than
either recognizing the attacker as ignorant or separating the wheat
from the chaff.

[Here it comes...]  I have met SF fans who seemed to have no
connection to the real world.  I find that sad.

My God.  I fully expect to have three-headed monsters from outer space
burning effigies on my lawn by morning; that's the price I gotta pay.

        Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 82 11:17:26-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!npoiv!alice!mhtsa!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70
Subject: Thoughts on trb, Harper's, and SF

Andy makes some good points -- I doubt that he'll get many flames, but
who knows (looked out at your front lawn lately, Andy?).  But he's not
telling most of us anything we haven't already thought through many
times.  Most SF IS something less than literature (I hesitate to say
trash -- it's no more trash than most of the other popular fiction on
the racks).  And maybe our response to the Harper's article was more
than it deserved.  But why is it that of all the popular genres, SF is
the one usually singled out for attacks like the one in Harper's?
When was the last time any of you saw mysteries, or westerns, or spy
thrillers taken to task?

Science fiction is a type of popular fiction, no more, no less.  
People usually read for pleasure and exscape, and their choice of
genre is a personal one.  In other words, what I read is my business
-- why should it bother someone else?  Go ahead and read your
westerns, but don't thumb your nose at my science fiction.

I've been reading SF for twenty-five years.  I began by "chewing
through SF pulp," as I'm sure a lot of others did.  As SF became more
and more popular, its quality began to suffer (my opinion).  Now I'm a
more careful reader, and as often as not I'll come away from a
bookstore with something other than SF -- for example, I just finished
John Irving's "Hotel New Hampshire."  My point here is that I believe
most of us who read and enjoy SF have both feet firmly planted on this
planet.

This leads me to what I consider an important distinction.  There are
SF "readers," and there are SF "fans."  I have to state here that this
is a personal opinion, and I expect flames.  Readers are those who
have strong feelings about what SF is and should be, and who select
their reading carefully.  SF fans are those who cling to the "popular"
bandwagon, adopting as their own everything given the "SF" label by
people who don't know what SF is.  Fans engage in endless discussions
of movies like Star Wars and Star Trek II.  They have "tribbles" in a
prominent place on their desk.  I have to compare fans to those people
who buy the latest in ski wear and hang around the ski lodges without 
ever putting on a pair of skis.

I like net.sf-lovers, and I tune in every chance I get.  The SW 
discussions don't bother me -- I can always type "n," and I do so 
regularly.  I WOULD like to see more reviews of books, and more 
discussion of SF as a literary genre.  Maybe I can start some now.
There were three SF novels on the NY Times best seller list last week.
Anybody know what they were?  Any reviews?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 82 3:32:12-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxr!cjh at Ucb-C70
Subject: RE:Harpers

My response to people who don't like what I read or do is a general
"Why should I care what YOU think ?".  If they have a good (logical)
reason then I'll consider it, if not (just their personal opinion)
then I tell them to use 20 cents and call someone who cares. If
someone doesn't think (a relative term) science fiction is worth while
because they possibly don't understand it, they should consider the
average person who doesn't know anything about computers and considers
users manuals a waste of time.
                C . J. Holzwarth
                ihuxr!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 11:38:51-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jmturn at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine

Of course most SF is trash. Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of
*anything* is trash. What is so irritating about the Harper's article
is not that the author says "Some SF is trash", but "All SF is trash".
If he had said "All 19th century Victorian novels are trash", I'd be
just as mad (and I hate 19th century Victorian novels!)

This kind of violent outlash has an unfortunate progression.
   1) X is trash
   2) People who read trash are stupid
   3) People who read X are stupid
   4) People who are stupid...etc

Therefore, I make the following statement: Harper's is trash!

                                        James

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 82 7:28:08-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine

Remember Sturgeon's Law:
        1.  90% of Science Fiction is shit
        2.  90% of everything is shit

Still true to-day (although I'm sometimes inclined to think its more
like 95%).

                                John R Blaker
                                ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb

------------------------------

Date: 24 Dec 82 22:35:37-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!intelqa!omsvax!bc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Praise for "The Dark Crystal"

I've heard in the last few days that The Dark Crystal is not getting 
good promotion because the distributer doesn't know how to promote it,
and reviewers are giving it lukewarm (at best) reviews because they 
don't know how to categorize it.  So I thought I would proselytize for
the movie a little, hoping that a word of mouth campaign of promotion 
would bring some people into the theaters, and help pay back the 
people who made this movie.

If its not obvious already, I'll spell it out:

        I THINK THE DARK CRYSTAL IS AN EXCELLENT MOVIE !!!

If you enjoy puppetry, fantasy, or visual beauty in movies, I think 
you will agree with me.  If you go into the theater expecting comedy, 
the Muppets, or Disney cuteness, you will be disappointed however.  
The Dark Crystal is not a children's story (though my two sons 
thoroughly enjoyed it, and want to see it again) nor is it sword and 
sorcery of the Mighty Thews the Barbarian school.  It is a 
Tolkienesque fantasy, with a good bit of violence (not very graphic, 
but violence nonetheless), without a single human character.  As far 
as I could see, there wasn't a single animal or sentient creature in
the movie which was not a puppet of some sort, and it seemed that most
of the plants were puppets too.

The movie is a masterpiece of technique, as one might expect of Jim 
Hensen's puppeteers, and Industrial Light and Magic's special effects 
wizards (the term fits well here).  Moreover, it is visually striking,
thanks largely to Brian Froud's overall design, and one of the best 
jobs of color coordination I have seen in a movie.  The plot is stock:
the quest to find and use the magical item which will end the reign of
evil; nonetheless, the story carried my interest, and the ending, 
though not a vast surprise, was satisfying.

A word of advice: don't wait for The Dark Crystal to get to a cheap 
theater with a small screen, or for the cable TV systems to pick it 
up.  See it in wide screen, while the distribution prints are still in
good shape.  The visuals are worth it.


                                Bruce Cohen
                                Intel
                                ...{pur-ee,hplabs}!intelqa!omsvax!bc

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 10:37:43-PST (Mon)
From: teklabs!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabers

   What's with all this "where does he get his LS" stuff? Surely, in a
society that can produce blasters and Death Stars, making a simple 
light saber can be no trick. Granted, they "are rare." Big deal.
Swords are not all that common in a society that uses M16s in battle,
so why are we debating that Darth can't have a LS if Luke has his
father's?
   Note the color of the light, also. OB1's and Luke's have this
really "pure" blue-white color, while DV's is a very evil dirty red.
Does this imply that the light saber is a mirror of the soul, or
simply that DV's was made at a different time or place than the
others?
                                                         Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 14:24:01-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SW-IV & -V

        I went and saw SW4 and SW5 again too.  LUCAS is UNFAIR to
WOOKIES and WOMEN!!  There are no female fighter-pilots, or Jedi, or
officers of the Empire or even (as far as we know) storm troopers.
The rebels had one female communications officer in TESB, though.  In
the triumphant procession at the end of SW Chewie, Han, and Luke march
up in front of the rebel assembly ...  but only Han and Luke receive
medals.  Drat!  Is it against the Chewie's religion to wear anything
besides that silver ammo-belt? (which may not even be an ammo belt?).
Oh I forgot -- you get one shot of what is probably shoes on Chewie in
TESB.

        I have finally discovered why I *much prefer* SW to TESB
(contrary to popular opinion).  In SW the characters are often
impetuous and conceited, but in TESB, even with time to think they act
*STUPIDLY*.

        Consider.  Luke is in a cave with an abomknable snowman, miles
and miles away from the base, and night is falling.  What would you
do?  Start *walking* home?  or kill the snow beast (or drive him away)
with your light saber, and stay sheltered in the warm cave until
morning?  I know what *I* would do....

        Han has survived a night outdoors on Hoth-moon.  Now he wants
to go out and check on the robot-droid-probe.  Does he take a
spacecraft which have now been fixed to work under cold conditions?
As far as we know, he and Chewie walk -- though they may have taken
Tauntauns.  Why?  Couldnt Chewie fit into a spacefighter?  Are
robot-droid-probes sensitive to electronic equipment?

        Doesnt Darth Vader know that you never put all your prisoners
together so they can comfort each other, regain morale, and plan how
to escape?  He knew about solitary confinement in SW -- why has he
forgotten in TESB?

        Questions: Luke draws his saber first every time he faces
Vader, incl- uding in the cave.  Anybody know whether Vader or OB1
draws first in their great battle?  I forgot to look.  How does R2D2
go down stairs?  Why does Luke throw the food stick which he wont let
Yoda eat into the swamp?  What does the princess do her hair with
after days of torture while in Solitary confinement?

                                                Laura Creighton
                                                decvax!utzoo!laura

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 82 16:16:30-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70
Subject: Luke Strikes First?

        In an earlier article, somebdy thought that in both "major" 
battles between Luke and Darth, that Luke started the attack.  This is
wrong.  In the cave, Luke ignites his lightsaber first, but only holds
in in front of him -Darth makes the first lunge.  HOWEVER in the
carbon freezing chamber, Luke definitely does make the first move.
The "restarts" of this fight have: Darth with light saber drawn, but
instead "throws" things at Luke; and Darth almost surprising Luke with
the 1st blow.

        Some "other" thoughts: The Star Wars flicks are fantasy and 
basically follow a generic good-guys vs. pirates "swashbuckler".  The 
movies are (for the most part) aimed at the "young" (pre-teen to early
teen) audience.  Based on this, OB-1 can NOT have lied and Darth MUST 
have lied -- Darth is NOT Luke's dad.  (I'll bend somewhat that Darth 
maybe a clone, but I doubt it) Also based on these ideas, I doubt that
Leia will have ANYBODIES baby (to be the "other").

        With the whole Star Wars being a triology of triolgies, what
are the 1st and 3rd tri's about??  Well, I recall an interview with
Lucas somewhat after SW4-ANH is a big hit.  In it he spoke of the next
flick (SW5-TESB), but more important, he mentions that the original
idea for episode 4 was supposed to play of the 'droids more!  It
wasn't until the "studio empire" told him that he had to punch up the
human parts (or no flick) that Luke (and the others) became major
characters.  Now since Lucas can call all the shots, I'll bet that the
overall 9 movies are about Artoo and Seepio.  (clever the way Lucas
pick their model-numbers so that they "sound" like names! --[[ OB-1??
]])

        One more thought on "the other" -- who or whatever it may be
-- it doesn't HAVE to be Jedi.  Remember, Yoda tells Luke that the
future is "difficult to tell... clouded by emotions".  I suspect that
there really won't be any new characters (not major ones at least),
but that the "other" hope will be Leia's love for Luke.  Luke is
obviously taken in by her from the first time Artoo projects her
image.  Poor confused Leia in episode's 4 & 5 has been balancing
between Luke and Han.  In RotJ, I think she'll realy pick one --Luke.
Han will really turn out to be "Mr SOLO" --and not want to settle
down.  (that or else some other beauty will turn his head)


                ????


                        Larry Marek
                         ...ihuxf!larry

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 9:55:37-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW-IV & -V

   Well, you people convinced me to go back and see episodes IV and V
again.  Some interesting things have been missed or mis-stated.
    1) Darth Vader kills lots of people.  He starts by picking up
       the commander of Leia's ship (the opening scenes) by the neck
       and shaking him until he is dead.  Not particularly nice.  He
       also kills lots of people by using the Force to strangle them.
    2) OB-1 is definitely called OB-1.  It seems that the future
       has slurred the 1 to sound more like Wan, but the more cultured
       types (such as old Ben himself) speak clearly enough.
    3) Nobody mentioned that Luke's uncle's name was Owen (O-1).
       also says this fairly clearly at least twice.
    4) When Ben says Vader murdered Luke's father, I got the
       feeling he was speaking in a metaphysical sense.  Vader (the
       dark side) won out over Skywalker (the better side).  Thus
       Vader "murdered" Luke's father.
    5) There is some resemblence between the emperor and Ben but
       the credits list them as different actors.
    6) Leia is a little slut who obviously wants Luke, Han, and
       Chewie.
    7) Luke's light saber is very likely gone, although he could
       have used the Force to call it back to him.
   Here is some wild speculation.  I am not at all convinced that Luke
will be an all around good-guy for the next movie.  Although it goes
against shlock American film-making practices, Luke could very well
become a baddie.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Vader/Skywalker and
Luke take on the Emperor and then take over the Galaxy.  Perhaps Vader
might even die in the encounter.  But the "other" will win out in the
end.
   One more thought before I go.  Did anyone else notice that none of 
the good guys ever got hit by the laser blasts.  At least not
seriously.  However, R2D2 stood in the line of fire more often without
suffering any real damages.  It (he?) only got caught a couple of time
and usually it was "fortuitous happenstance" since it advanced R2D2
toward his current goals.  R2D2 also circumvented every security
system set up and talked freely with all other computers.  If all R2
units had that capability the Galaxy would be controlled by 'droids,
or unscrupulous 'droid owners.
    --- Stephen Perelgut ---

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 8:03:58-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70
Subject: Darth vs OB-1

    I watched episode 4 last nite.  Some interesting points from the
Darth vs OB-1 light saber battle.  First OB-1 seems to almost
"stumble" upon Darth.  Darth is standing there blocking the way with
his light saber ignited, OB-1 turns his on (in one of the best effects
parts of the movie) --then OB-1 makes the first lunge!!  As the fight
goes on, it becomes obvious that OB-1 is manuvering the fight to
distract the other guards so the Luke, Liea, & Han can escape.  OB-1's
final words still haunt me tho-- "You can't win Darth.  Even if you
strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine"
So far, all the transcended OB-1 has done is whisper into Luke's ear.
Doesn't sound very powerful to me.  I suspect OB-1 to have a bigger
roll in RotJ.


        Larry Marek

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 12:15:01-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jah at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: re: light saber

The light saber may well be the only weapon that can stop a well
trained jedi.  Remember what happened when Darth was shot at close
range from a blaster? (make that "with a blaster") He simply catches
the "bullets."

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 82 18:29:13-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!npoiv!alice!sjb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabers

I think the fact that Darth's saber is red and Luke's and Ben's are
blue/white is a VERY strong hint that the sabers ARE powered by the
force.  Hell, just because there's an on button doesn't mean it's not
powered by the force.  After all, if it was powered by the force and
there were no button, it would be on ALL THE TIME!  Now, I don't know
about you, but I sure don't want that thing on and bouncing up and
down while I am running (or even walking)!  Nice way to amputate your
own leg.  What does this all mean?  If the light saber is powered by
the force, then Han sure has the force with him, leading to Han as the
other.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 29-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #119
*** EOOH ***
Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1982 8:13PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #119
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Dec 1982     Volume 6 : Issue 119

Today's Topics:
    Misc   - Harper's article
    Books  - book wanted, Asimov's FOUNDATION'S EDGE
    Movies - Dune, SW/TESB/ROTJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 December 1982 08:36 est
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Harper's article.

I have my own theories about who likes what KIND of SF flavored 
literature and why but I should point out that Harper's is into 
presenting this kind of article.  A two part cover story titled "Panic
Among the Philistines" points out the general bankruptcy and
alienation of modern authors of MAINSTREAM fiction.  A lot of John
Updike fans were really upset but I couldn't help agreeing.

Another article expounded the view that environmentalists are all
spoiled upper middle class brats who are trying to keep the working
class in line by limiting the exploitation of natural resources.
Since I fit right in this pocket I was rather offended.

This iconoclastic approach has been rather prominent ever since 
Harper's managed to squeak past its last cash crunch and apparently
has kept the magazine solvent.

One approach might be to treat Harper's as a magazine of Speculative
Fiction (or just plain speculation) in which authors try changing or
extrapolating accepted wisdom.  Modern literature is not particularly
good, rather it is awful.  The environmental movement is a
neo-feudalistic force.  If you toss in a grain of salt the slander is
often a lot easier to take.

                                        sas

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1982 11:43:06-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: book wanted

   I am wondering whether anyone else has heard of a book I read 20
years ago.  I recall the title being MR. MURGATROYD, the title
character being a gnomish type who blows out of a London fog to lead
an American boy (whose father is attached to the embassy) on an
assortment of adventures relating to both traditional fantasies and
English mythology (one of the reappearing characters is a variant of
the Green Man).
   Does anyone else remember this? Has anyone seen a copy for sale
anywhere??

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 82 18:23:05-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn at Ucb-C70
Subject: Speculation about FOUNDATION sequels (possible spoiler)

*** WARNING *** This discussion is not intended to be deep enough to
merit a full SPOILER WARNING but if you are easily annoyed by spoilage
you should skip over this...

Isaac Asimov didn't exactly tie up all the loose ends in FOUNDATION'S
EDGE; in fact he left the way wide open for yet another FOUNDATION
book.  One of the interesting things about FOUNDATION'S EDGE is the
way in which earlier Asimov books are tied into the story-line.  Three
things in particular are recalled but not developed in detail,
suggesting possible deeper treatments in future works:

	o   The Robots
	o   The Earthmen
	o   The Eternals

I assume that everyone is familiar with at least some of the classic
robot stories: I, ROBOT; THE REST OF THE ROBOTS; THE CAVES OF STEEL;
THE NAKED SUN.  I understand from Asimov's remarks in IASFM that he is
working on a new robot novel; perhaps this will fill in some of the
necessary connections with the "Galactic Empire" universe of
FOUNDATION.  THE BOOK OF FLIGHT (mentioned obliquely in EDGE as a
source of legends about Earth) apparently describes a resolution of
the problem which is presented in THE CAVES OF STEEL and THE NAKED
SUN: the men of Earth overcome their agoraphobia but not their fear of
robots, and they start a new wave of settlement (`the Flight') which
bypasses the robot worlds and leads to the development of the Empire.
Of course we do meet a robot in EDGE, but it raises as many questions
as it resolves...

The Eternals and the Earthmen are less well known than the Robots.
Earthmen in Galactic Empire times are the subject of Asimov's very
first novel, PEBBLE IN THE SKY.  I went back and re-read this book
recently to see how it might reflect on plot developments in
FOUNDATION V.  A number of important things from PEBBLE are mentioned
in EDGE:

	There really is a planet called Earth in the Sirius Sector and
	it really is considered to be the original home of humanity.
	It was radioactive, either to begin with or eventually, and
	this grew worse till the planet died.  There was indeed a
	mind-enhancing invention that came to nothing.  All this is
	considered history on the home planet of my ancestors. [p. 204,
	EDGE]

PEBBLE takes place in the Year of the Galactic Era 827, back at the
beginning of the Empire's long history.  Earth is a backwater planet
whose only distinction is that its surface is radioactive.  The
archaeologist Bel Arvardan suspects that Earth is the original planet
of the human race and pays a visit to the planet to test his theory.
Unfortunately for him, Earth is a rebellious place which is held in
check only by an Imperial garrison, and the semi-secret Society of
Ancients is continually plotting vengeance on the oppressing
Galactics.  Arvardan stumbles into an ugly scheme by the Ancients to
wipe out all other life in the Galaxy (I guess the Galaxy just isn't
Krikkit) and spends the book being alternately arrogant and humbled.
But that's not all--

Joseph Schwartz is a retired Chicago tailor who goes for a walk on a
pleasant morning in June of 1949 and never comes home.  As a result of
a mysterious laboratory accident at the Institute for Nuclear Research
across town, he is thrown thousands of years into the future.  The
farmer who eventually takes him in is annoyed by Schwartz's inability
to speak the language and is afraid to be caught out by the
ever-vigilant Society of Ancients for hoarding an elderly
father-in-law (everyone is supposed to submit to euthanasia at the age
of 60), so Schwartz is disposed of by being forced to act as a guinea
pig for a new mind-enhancing device, the Synapsifier.  Schwartz
develops mental abilities equivalent to those of Stor Gendibal in EDGE
and his intelligence triples.  The Ancients find out about Schwartz
and attempt to eliminate him, believing him to be an agent of the
Empire...

PEBBLE isn't bad for a first novel.  But Asimov never explains what
happens to Schwartz after the events in the book, nor what becomes of
the Synapsifier.  In EDGE we never learn the reason why all references
to Earth have been deleted from the Imperial library on Trantor: you
don't suppose that the Synapsifier and perhaps even Joe Schwartz are
still around somewhere after thousands of years? Golan Trevize is
planning on visiting Earth, however...  maybe we will find out in
FOUNDATION V.

The Eternals are described in THE END OF ETERNITY.  A rather different
account is made of them in EDGE than what I remember of the original
book, though.  Unfortunately my copy of ETERNITY was the victim of a
garage sale while I was an undergraduate so I can't make a direct
comparison; is anyone on the net willing to review this one?

There's all kinds of useful fuel for speculation about FOUNDATION V...
Does anyone remember whether THE STARS LIKE DUST or THE CURRENTS OF
SPACE have any interesting material?

Donn Seeley  UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF  ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
             (619) 452-4017             sdamos!donn@nprdc



------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 82 8:36:38-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!microsof!fluke!vax1.witters at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: News about the Dune Movie

Yeah, I've been reading about the Dune movie for about three years in
the newspaper.  Frankly, I'm beginning to doubt if it will ever be
made.  The last thing I read said it was being made by the same guy
who made the recent Flash Gordon movie and King Kong (Dino DeLaurentus
(sp?)).  Supposedly, filming has already begun in Tunisia.  The movie
rights to the book have passed through three or four people.
Considering the quality of the movies Dino has made before, I don't
think Dune will be anything to look forward to.

                        I don't give a damn if you sign your name or
not.

                        John Witters

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 7:50:12-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!burton at Ucb-C70
Subject: News about the Dune Movie

Last night on 'Entertainment Tonight', they announced that the lead 
singer for the Police, Sting, will be in the upcoming movie Dune.  I
don't remember if they said anything about the lead role, but what
amazed me most is the word 'upcoming'; has anyone out there heard 
anything else about this movie? Whose making it? When will it be
scheduled for release? Any other rumors?

        Doug Burton
        Bell Labs, Indy
        inuxc!burton

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 20:49:51-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!pyuxjj!rlr at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: News about the Dune Movie

Earlier this year, I saw an article purporting that the award- winning
(?) David Lynch, of "The Elephant Man" and (more ... uh, importantly) 
"Eraserhead" fame, would be directing the "Dune" movie.  Please note
that his previous works are totally black & white, with that deep dark
industrial quality.  I cannot confirm if he is still involved with the
film, or indeed if he ever was.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 82 10:37:43-PST (Mon)
From: teklabs!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabers

   What's with all this "where does he get his LS" stuff? Surely, in a
society that can produce blasters and Death Stars, making a simple 
light saber can be no trick. Granted, they "are rare." Big deal.
Swords are not all that common in a society that uses M16s in battle,
so why are we debating that Darth can't have a LS if Luke has his
father's?
   Note the color of the light, also. OB1's and Luke's have this
really "pure" blue-white color, while DV's is a very evil dirty red.
Does this imply that the light saber is a mirror of the soul, or
simply that DV's was made at a different time or place than the
others?
                                                         Rich Amber

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 14:24:01-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: SW-IV & -V

        I went and saw SW4 and SW5 again too.  LUCAS is UNFAIR to
WOOKIES and WOMEN!!  There are no female fighter-pilots, or Jedi, or
officers of the Empire or even (as far as we know) storm troopers.
The rebels had one female communications officer in TESB, though.  In
the triumphant procession at the end of SW Chewie, Han, and Luke march
up in front of the rebel assembly ...  but only Han and Luke receive
medals.  Drat!  Is it against the Chewie's religion to wear anything
besides that silver ammo-belt? (which may not even be an ammo belt?).
Oh I forgot -- you get one shot of what is probably shoes on Chewie in
TESB.

        I have finally discovered why I *much prefer* SW to TESB
(contrary to popular opinion).  In SW the characters are often
impetuous and conceited, but in TESB, even with time to think they act
*STUPIDLY*.

        Consider.  Luke is in a cave with an abomknable snowman, miles
and miles away from the base, and night is falling.  What would you
do?  Start *walking* home?  or kill the snow beast (or drive him away)
with your light saber, and stay sheltered in the warm cave until
morning?  I know what *I* would do....

        Han has survived a night outdoors on Hoth-moon.  Now he wants
to go out and check on the robot-droid-probe.  Does he take a
spacecraft which have now been fixed to work under cold conditions?
As far as we know, he and Chewie walk -- though they may have taken
Tauntauns.  Why?  Couldnt Chewie fit into a spacefighter?  Are
robot-droid-probes sensitive to electronic equipment?

        Doesnt Darth Vader know that you never put all your prisoners
together so they can comfort each other, regain morale, and plan how
to escape?  He knew about solitary confinement in SW -- why has he
forgotten in TESB?

        Questions: Luke draws his saber first every time he faces
Vader, incl- uding in the cave.  Anybody know whether Vader or OB1
draws first in their great battle?  I forgot to look.  How does R2D2
go down stairs?  Why does Luke throw the food stick which he wont let
Yoda eat into the swamp?  What does the princess do her hair with
after days of torture while in Solitary confinement?

                                                Laura Creighton
                                                decvax!utzoo!laura

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 82 17:43:56-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!lee at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Luke"s mechanical hand

I hereby predict that Luke's mechanical hand will kill Vader
    when Luke is frozen into in action by lines "I am your father"
    or some other distraction.  (shades of Amber)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 82 16:16:30-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70
Subject: Luke Strikes First?

        In an earlier article, somebdy thought that in both "major" 
battles between Luke and Darth, that Luke started the attack.  This is
wrong.  In the cave, Luke ignites his lightsaber first, but only holds
in in front of him -Darth makes the first lunge.  HOWEVER in the
carbon freezing chamber, Luke definitely does make the first move.
The "restarts" of this fight have: Darth with light saber drawn, but
instead "throws" things at Luke; and Darth almost surprising Luke with
the 1st blow.

        Some "other" thoughts: The Star Wars flicks are fantasy and 
basically follow a generic good-guys vs. pirates "swashbuckler".  The 
movies are (for the most part) aimed at the "young" (pre-teen to early
teen) audience.  Based on this, OB-1 can NOT have lied and Darth MUST 
have lied -- Darth is NOT Luke's dad.  (I'll bend somewhat that Darth 
maybe a clone, but I doubt it) Also based on these ideas, I doubt that
Leia will have ANYBODIES baby (to be the "other").

        With the whole Star Wars being a triology of triolgies, what
are the 1st and 3rd tri's about??  Well, I recall an interview with
Lucas somewhat after SW4-ANH is a big hit.  In it he spoke of the next
flick (SW5-TESB), but more important, he mentions that the original
idea for episode 4 was supposed to play of the 'droids more!  It
wasn't until the "studio empire" told him that he had to punch up the
human parts (or no flick) that Luke (and the others) became major
characters.  Now since Lucas can call all the shots, I'll bet that the
overall 9 movies are about Artoo and Seepio.  (clever the way Lucas
pick their model-numbers so that they "sound" like names! --[[ OB-1??
]])

        One more thought on "the other" -- who or whatever it may be
-- it doesn't HAVE to be Jedi.  Remember, Yoda tells Luke that the
future is "difficult to tell... clouded by emotions".  I suspect that
there really won't be any new characters (not major ones at least),
but that the "other" hope will be Leia's love for Luke.  Luke is
obviously taken in by her from the first time Artoo projects her
image.  Poor confused Leia in episode's 4 & 5 has been balancing
between Luke and Han.  In RotJ, I think she'll realy pick one --Luke.
Han will really turn out to be "Mr SOLO" --and not want to settle
down.  (that or else some other beauty will turn his head)


                ????


                        Larry Marek
                         ...ihuxf!larry

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 9:55:37-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW-IV & -V

   Well, you people convinced me to go back and see episodes IV and V
again.  Some interesting things have been missed or mis-stated.
        1) Darth Vader kills lots of people.  He starts by picking up
the
           commander of Leia's ship (the opening scenes) by the neck
and
           shaking him until he is dead.  Not particularly nice.  He
also
           kills lots of people by using the Force to strangle them.
        2) OB-1 is definately called OB-1.  It seems that the future
has
           slurred the 1 to sound more like Wan, but the more cultured
           types (such as old Ben himself) speak clearly enough.
        3) Nobody mentionned that Luke's uncle's name was Owen (O-1).
Ben
           also says this fairly clearly at least twice.
        4) When Ben says Vader murdered Luke's father, I got the
feeling he
           was speaking in a metaphysical sense.  Vader (the dark
side) won
           out over Skywalker (the better side).  Thus Vader
"murdered" Luke's
           father.
        5) There is some resemblence between the emperor and Ben but
the
           credits list them as different actors.
        6) Leia is a little slut who obviously wants Luke, Han, and
Chewie.
        7) Luke's light saber is very likely gone, although he could
have used
           the Force to call it back to him.
   Here is some wild speculation.  I am not at all convinced that Luke
will be an all around good-guy for the next movie.  Although it goes
against shlock American film-making practices, Luke could very well
become a baddie.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Vader/Skywalker and
Luke take on the Emperor and then take over the Galaxy.  Perhaps Vader
might even die in the encounter.  But the "other" will win out in the
end.
   One more thought before I go.  Did anyone else notice that none of 
the good guys ever got hit by the laser blasts.  At least not
seriously.  However, R2D2 stood in the line of fire more often without
suffering any real damages.  It (he?) only got caught a couple of time
and usually it was "fortuitous happenstance" since it advanced R2D2
toward his current goals.  R2D2 also circumvented every security
system set up and talked freely with all other computers.  If all R2
units had that capability the Galaxy would be controlled by 'droids,
or unscrupulous 'droid owners.
        --- Stephen Perelgut ---

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 82 8:03:58-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70
Subject: Darth vs OB-1

        I watch episode 4 last nite.  Some interesting points from the
Darth vs OB-1 light saber battle.  First OB-1 seems to almost
"stumble" upon Darth.  Darth is standing there blocking the way with
his light saber ignited, OB-1 turns his on (in one of the best effects
parts of the movie) --then OB-1 makes the first lunge!!  As the fight
goes on, it becomes obvious that OB-1 is manuvering the fight to
distract the other guards so the Luke, Liea, & Han can escape.  OB-1's
final words still haunt me tho-- "You can't win Darth.  Even if you
strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine"
So far, all the transcended OB-1 has done is whisper into Luke's ear.
Doesn't sound very powerful to me.  I suspect OB-1 to have a bigger
roll in RotJ.


                Larry Marek

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 82 17:02:20-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!pha at Ucb-C70
Subject: Lukes hand

        I checked up on the book of TESB, and discovered that no one
could have recovered Luke's hand; it was a gas planet!

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 82 18:29:13-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!npoiv!alice!sjb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabers

I think the fact that Darth's saber is red and Luke's and Ben's are
blue/white is a VERY strong hint that the sabers ARE powered by the
force.  Hell, just because there's an on button doesn't mean it's not
powered by the force.  After all, if it was powered by the force and
there were no button, it would be on ALL THE TIME!  Now, I don't know
about you, but I sure down want that thing on and bouncing up and down
while I running (or even walking)!  Nice way to amputate your own leg.
What does this all mean?  If the light saber is powered by the force,
then Han sure has the force with him, leading to Han as the other.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 13:46:50-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxr!lew at Ucb-C70
Subject: Dark Father

When my four year old son had just seen "The Empire Strikes Back" (his
first movie,) I asked him what he liked best in it. He pulled his
pacifier out of his mouth and intoned "Daarrrrth Vaaaaderrrr". For my
part, I thought Vader's revelation to Luke provided the only genuine
drama in either movie. I can only hope that Lucas doesn't fumble this
opportunity away with some facile contrivance.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1982 12:45:50-EST
From: David.Smith at CMU-CS-IUS at CMU-CS-A
Subject: Star wars minutiae & coming episodes

This stuff about stormtroopers' armor and lightsabers makes me think 
you all take SW too seriously.  When I first saw SW4, I thought it was
a lot of fun, but a poor movie full of stock lines and settings.  (And
I am not a frequent movie-goer.)  On later reflection, however, I 
figured that Lucas was intentionally parodying westerns &c.  Consider 
how C3PO and R2D2 shuffled and rolled (respectively) slowly across the
corridor to get to the life pods, while storm troopers filled the air 
with blaster bullets.  Intentionally implausible.  Then there are 
spaceships maneuvering in space like airplanes, and on and on.  If the
armor seems ineffective, it is because they are the bad guys.

The speculations on the other trilogies prompted me to get out my copy
of Time magazine for May 19, 1980 -- the one with Darth Vader on the
cover.  From a box:

        ... The remaining movies, fore and aft, have not yet been laid
out
        in detail, but Lucas has the framework, a kind of history of
what
        happened in that galaxy long ago and far away.  A preview:

        For years the universe was governed by a republic, which was
regulated
        by the order of Jedi Knights...  But eventually the citizens
of the
        republic "didn't care enough to elect competent officials,"
says Lucas
        the historian, and so their government collapsed.  A sorcerer,
a bad
        counterpart of Yoda, blocked all opposition and declared
himself
        emperor...

        The emperor subverts Darth Vader to his side, and together he
and
        Vader betray the other Knights, nearly all of whom are killed
in their
        trap.  Ben Kenobi escapes, and after a fierce struggle he does
such
        injury to Vader that forever after Vader must wear a mask and
that
        noisy life-support system.  The fall of the republic and the
rise of
        the empire will form the first of Lucas' three trilogies.

        The second trilogy ... centers on Luke Skywalker, who will be
seen as
        a child in Episode 3.  The "Empire" continues the Skywalker
story, and
        ... [RotJ] will end it, with either Luke or Darth Vader
walking away
        from their final bout.  The last three episodes involve the
rebuilding
        of the republic.

        Only two of the main characters will appear in all nine films,
and
        they are the robots, Artoo Detoo and Threepio.  Says Lucas:
"In
        effect, the story will be told through their eyes."

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 December 1982  19:51-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: detection of good and evil in the Force

    Date: 20 Dec 82 14:08:15 EST  (Mon)
    From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay>
    To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
    Re:   detection of good and evil in the Force

    Ah, but Good CAN be detected - Darth Vader detected Obi-wan on the
    Death Star ("I feel a presence in the force, someone I have not
    detected since...." not an exact quote, but you get the idea.)

I disagree. What he said was "I feel a tremor in the Force, something
I have not felt since...". He felt the magnitude and character of
Obi-wan's mastery of the force, not its "goodness" or "evilness" (also
when trying to shoot down Luke: "the Force is strong in this one"). It
would seem that powerful users of the Force radiate and aura which
acts sort of as a "signature" for them.

--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 18:32:41-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc.

I think the force is with Han Solo, too - although he's not the other.

I should point out however that Han did NOT hit Darth Vader in the
death star battle.  He hit Vader's wingman, and that ship went out of
control and crashed into Vader's ship.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 12:15:01-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jah at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: re: light saber

The light saber may well be the only weapon that can stop a well
trained jedi.  Remember what happened when Darth was shot at close
range from a blaster? (make that "with a blaster") He simply catches
the "bullets."

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 82 14:12:50-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70
Subject: re: Darth Vader in the cave

Saw TESB last night and watched the cave scene with some particular
interest.  Could it be that the face inside the Vader helmet is
Vader's original face?  (This would provide fuel to the clone theory.)

                        Tom Harris

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1982 1623-PST
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: The FORCE, or bad editing?



I recently saw SW-ANH (IV) in a situation where we could examine the
film closely.  In the fight between Darth Vader and Obiwan, Obiwan's
brown cloak starts to collapse 2 frames (at least) before Darth's
light sabre hits it!!!!!  So, did Darth kill Obiwan, or was he gone
already?  Or am I picking nits with the editor?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 82 15:26:20-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70
Subject: Star Wars, Empire, RotJ, etc. :-)

>From: Clayton M. Elwell [...!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc]

"Previews, Plotlines, Spoilers, Inside Knowledge... A true Jedi craves
not
 these things..."

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 82 16:54:19-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5d!hou5a!hou5e!jjm at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back

        The Emperor in TESB was played by an English actor
        named Clive Reville (sp?).

        I have seen him in other movies, so this is not
        a fake name.

        Despite a previous news item, Alec Guiness is not dead.
        (Anyone who saw the recent TV movie "Smiley's People"
        knows that.)

        Jim McParland
        BTL - Holmdel
        hou5e!jjm

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 11:43:12-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70
Subject: DV not OTHER

   Hmmm. If we assume OB1 to be a "good guy" and "DV" to be a "bad
guy" and knowing that there is "some good" even in bad guys, wouldn't
OB1 have been able to detect it? And so far, with the exception of
Yoda, OB1 is (was) the ranking Jedi (master of the force). If there
was good there, OB1 would not have attempted to kill DV. I suggest we
look elsewhere.  Or better yet, wait for the real answer in May.
                                                   R.Amber

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 10:35:28-PST (Mon)
From: 
Subject: RotJ: Yet Another Speculation

   Several months ago, on the PBS series "Nova", there was a program
on the uses of computers in the arts (mostly neat video stuff).  One
of the segments was about work that was being done at LucasFilms.  If
recollection serves, they had some nifty technique whereby the sound
of a musical instrument (a flute) was modulated into speaking patterns
by a human voice.  A rather haunting demonstration film was included.
   Now, why would LucasFilms be working on something like this?
   Most Star Wars maniacs know that the Star Wars saga is purportedly
derived from "The Journal of the Whills".  It is quite possible that
the flute-voice was created for the Whills, who would be seen or heard
for the first time in Revenge of the Jedi.
   Remember, you heard it here first.  Unless it's wrong.

        Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

0,unseen,,
Summary-line: 31-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #120
*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 31, 1982 6:11AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #120
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 31 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
    Misc   - tcp cutover
    Movies - The Day the Earth Stood Still, Dune, Blade Runner,
	     SW/TESB/ROTJ
    Humor  - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Net
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 1982 0606-PST
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Subject: tcp cutover

Due to the impending tcp cutover, sf-lovers is going into hibernation
for awhile. It will return some day.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 1982 11:54:18-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: translation of THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL

   In context, it is made very clear that "Klaatu barada nikto" means 
something like "Klaatu commands [that] [you] wait/do nothing/don't 
harm anything" (look again at the scene where Neal gets these words
from Klaatu, who is specifically worried that Gort will go on a
rampage).

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1982 15:12:56-EST
From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A
Subject: Dune, and (not again!!) SW

Could it be that the reason r2d2 can resist phaser fire, break all
security systems, etc... is that he is a special droid, not really
just an r2 unit.  After all, he is costar of the tritrilogy.

Eraserhead was a neat movie. If its director is directing Dune, I
expect something good.

Probably I just have the wrong impression of Sting from seeing him
play Bellboy in Quadrophenia, but it seems that the only person he
could be is Feyd-Rautha. Am I wrong?
                                                'im

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 82 9:49:50-PST (Thu)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70
Subject: Blade Runner music, RotJ

Last night I bought an album of music from Blade Runner.  It is called
an 'orchestral adaptation' of music from the Blade Runner, by the New
American Orchestra.
  It is NOT a K-tel version of the soundtrack ('operators are standing
by').  The jacket features some stills from the movie on the back, and
the front features the movie poster.  It also was released by Warner
bros., who released the movie.
  I've only listened to it once.  It does capture some of that 
haunting, moody feel of the soundtrack.  I'd prefer a soundtrack by 
Vangelis, but this is the closest we may ever get.

I also saw some new previews for RotJ, ie different from the previews 
that went out with the last release of Empire.  Some quick scenes:
 1. Luke in a black version of his Dagobah fatiques, with blue light
    saber.
 2. people on anti-grav motorcycles racing through a forest.
 3. han and leia reunited.
 4. Two alien types, who appear to have a greater role than just
    supplying atmosphere.

                            lorraine whuxf!lkl

------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 1982 10:20 PST
From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #115

Just saw "Voyagers" for the first time last night (usually watch only
one hour of television a week).  I thought it an interesting, fast
moving program with real value regarding getting kids (young and old)
excited about the real world (beyond Pac-Man, Strawberry Shortcake,
Dallas, etc.).

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 82 10:14:42-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!kramer at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabres

Since light doesn't usually have the property that a beam stops a
meter or two from its source, it seems likely that a light sabre is a
mystical weapon in that it requires the use of the FORCE to limit the
beam.  This would limit its use to Jedi knights.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 82 14:26:42-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!djo at Ucb-C70
Subject: Tai Chi as it relates to the Force

Being a student of T'ai Chi Chuan I must agree with Tony that The
Force has always reminded me of Chi.  T'ai Chi translates to Universal
Exercise.  T'ai Chi Ch'uan is the study of T'ai Chi for self defense.
Ch'uan means fist.  The Chi permeates all living things.  The Chi is 
vital energy or prana in Sanskrit.  Every person is born with a
certain amount of Chi.  It flows throughout your body.  When it is
used up you will die.  There are certain things you can do to create
more Chi thus keeping yourself youthful and extending your life span
such as eating healthy and exercise but the practice of T'ai Chi is
the BEST method.  To be an expert in T'ai Chi Ch'uan is to have
immunity from destructive external forces and from poor health.  It is
mental and physical coordination.  The body is the form, and the mind
is the moving force.  The Chi is the prime component of acupuncture.
Acupuncture seeks to open the point(s) in your body where the Chi is
blocked allowing its healing powers to reach the problem area(s).  It
is sometimes visualized as a kind of fluid that runs through the body
along certain channels called meridians.  The Chi is controlled and
directed from the center of the body.  You must find that place within
yourself and "sink" into it.  The "trick" to the incredible power of
T'ai Chi Ch'uan as a fighting style is to follow your opponents
hostile energy without opposing or interfering with it; remaining
calmly centered while your assailant goes about the business of
defeating himself.  There are two great qualities that T'ai Chi
gradually bestows upon its faithful practitioners:  wisdom and power.
I will leave it you if this sounds like The Force.  If anyone is
interested in any further info just let me know and I will send mail.
I don't want to clutter up sf-lovers anymore with this.
                              Denise O'Jibway
                              La Jolla, CA

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 82 21:15:04-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!duke!phs!cmk at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW on HBO


It's true!! Star Wars will be on HBO starting February 1.  I have a
feeling I'm going to be Forced to death.
                                Chuck

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1982 2246-PST
From: SCHIFFMAN at SRI-KL
Subject: Obvious choice for "the other"...

This may have already been leaked, but I didn't see it --

"The other" is none other than Hans's father, Napoleon.

{Quick cut to a closet in a Tailor's shop on Dagobah...}

-Allan

------------------------------

Date: 23 Dec 82 10:14:42-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!kramer at Ucb-C70
Subject: Light Sabres

Since light doesn't usually have the property that a beam stops a
meter or two from its source, it seems likely that a light sabre is a
mystical weapon in that it requires the use of the FORCE to limit the
beam.  This would limit its use to Jedi knights.

------------------------------

Date: 29 December 1982 08:36 est
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Freedman's Dark Crystal review

I can't believe that Freedman even saw the movie...his review was so
full of mistatements and crocks.

1.  Aughra was female. Was I the only one who noticed her sagging,
braless breasts?

2.  Aughra only showed the "planetarium" (actually, according to her,
"universarium" would fit better) to Jen. Kira didn't even show up
until later.

3.  The Garthim were more lobsters than roaches (obviously, Freedman
does not live anywhere near the east coast, where such a parallel
would be hard to miss).

4.  Jen and Kira, atop landstriders, ATTACKED the Garthim, they 
weren't CHASED by them. They went in to free a basket full of 
Podpeople.

(PS to moderator, I don't think this constitutes anywhere near a 
spoiler).

Beyond anger at a reviewer who doesn't even pay attention to the 
movie:  I thought Dark Crystal was one of the most fascinating movies
I have ever seen, visually (akin to Bladerunner that way). The plot is
thin....you see one quest, you've seen them all. Of all the
characters, our heros (the Gelflings) are the weakest. They show
little facial expression and have some of the dumbest dialogue going.
The Skeksis, on the other hand, were immensely interesting. As in the
movie "Popeye", there is an AWFUL lot going on during scenes with the
Skeksis, mutterings and imprecations and discussions and other
interesting stuff (including somebody saying "What the bloody hell?"
in one scene...can you find it?). These made it worth going back to a 
second time (I have seen it twice in two days....)

Just to WATCH, this movie is worth sitting through a dull plot.  There
are great things wandering around all over, and lots of little details
to pay attention to. And the world appears to be interally consistent
(ecologically) as well!

I highly recommend this movie to SEE. and SEE. and SEE. The more you
look, the more you find worth watching. And it is the most texturally
interesting movie I have ever watched.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 82 8:52:43-PST (Tue)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!otuxa!lsk at Ucb-C70
Subject: Where the names R2D2 and C3P0 came from

Lucas said in a recent article that both "names" R2D2 and C3P0 were
just interesting "sounds" he'd heard along the way of life.  I
remember that R2D2 came from his standing around one of the film
editors who needed R2D2; reel 2, day 2.  So much for mystical meanings




Larry S. Kaufman, Western Electric, Network Software Center, Lisle,
Illinois

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1982 1847-EST
From: Marla <SELINGER at RU-GREEN at RUTGERS>
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Series


        Enough speculation on Star Trek III and Star Wars NNN.....  
What about Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Part IV?
        Here's an interesting point to brood on....
        In the series, when the 'Disaster Area' ship is about to 
plunge into the sun with our heroes, Marvin reveals that HE knows the
question to Life, the Universe and Everything, to which the answer is
42.  How is this so?  Well, dear viewers, remember that key phrase
that Marvin uttered about 3 times in every episode?  "...Brain the
size of a planet, and THEY want me to...." ...walk the dog, make tea,
etc.  Interesting.  Marvin was probably quite a few generations away
from Deep Thought, and perhaps even from that Mega-computer we all
knew as Earth.  Now, Earth's program was 'only' scheduled to run for
10 million years.  However, while our heroes were dining at the
Restauran' at the End of the Universe, Marvin had many, many millions
of years to wait around.  He must have done *something* besides park
cars!  Yes, folks, he would have been able to run the 'Earth' program
a few times, just for monotony's sake!  Given the starting data, he
could, reasonably, extrapolate the question!

        Unfortunately, Marvin was left diving into the sun at the end
of episode 7.....ah, well, the best laid plans of mice....

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 29 December 1982  19:33-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #112 (Dark Crystal - Spoiler warning)

I saw Dark Crystal the other day and was impressed by the effects, the
scenery, and the "acting". Most of the critters in the film were 
sufficiently well-made that they were believable. The main thing that 
bothered me about the movie was that is was so darn PREDICTABLE! Most 
of the ending could be guessed from about half-way through the movie, 
and I knew that the death/resurrection sequence would go through. They
seemed a bit too concerned with everything coming out good in the end,
thus the ending was a bit trite, dispite the cute effects.

flame on,
--vaf

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 82 8:47:08-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!npoiv!alice!sjb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: The FORCE, or bad editing?

He was gone already.  I seem to recall that that scene gave the people
doing the filming great headaches.  They tried putting dummies in for
Obiwan just before Vader strikes him, but every time Vader hit the
dummy with the light saber it (no kidding) burst into flames (now
there's an effect:  Obi Flambe!)!  So, I guess they just hung up Obi's
robe and let Vader swing away at it.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 82 16:34:35-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5b!hou5c!hou5e!jjm at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: all this Star Wars traffic on the net

        Several years ago, I (for some forgotten reason) wrote
        to Ben Bova, who was at that time the editor of Analog
        magazine.  As a postscript, I asked him "If Star Trek
        fans are called 'trekkies', what should be call Star
        Wars fans?"

        I was surprised to receive a personal reply to my
        letter, and in a postscript, Ben added:

        "Star Trek fans are 'trekkies', Star Wars fans are dolts."

        (no flames to me, please!)

        Jim McParland (the other)
        BTL - Holmdel
        hou5e!jjm

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1982 11:41:19-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: more rumors on the DUNE movie

   This month's LOCUS has the first installment of a new column by
Craig Miller, who was Lucasfilm's fan publicist for TESB and started
his own company after being laid off by Lucasfilm just after TESB came
out. He says that DUNE is once again in preproduction (which can take
up to a year before a foot of film is shot) under DeLaurentiis, but
there's no way of telling whether this attempt will get any further
than the other two.  (There's a polite undertone that I read as "If
you expect to see DUNE as a movie any time soon I've got this terrific
bridge I can let you have real cheap. . . .")

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 30 December 1982  16:01-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: The FORCE, or bad editing?

  Date: Tuesday, 28 December 1982  19:23-EST
  From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
  To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
  Re:   The FORCE, or bad editing?

  I recently saw SW-ANH (IV) in a situation where we could examine the
  film closely.  In the fight between Darth Vader and Obiwan, Obiwan's
  brown cloak starts to collapse 2 frames (at least) before Darth's
  light sabre hits it!!!!!  So, did Darth kill Obiwan, or was he gone
  already?  Or am I picking nits with the editor?

This, I would say, was intentional. Obi-wan's grin (and the music we
hear) just before he turns off his light sabre indicate that he knows
what is going on. I think he decided that he needed to make an impact
and had no real use for his corporeal form any longer. He therefore
fled his body BEFORE Vader "killed" him.

------------------------------

Date: 30 December 1982 20:48-EST
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Star Wars 3 (er, 6) preview footage

Preview footage of the next movie in the Star Wars series is now
appearing at movie theatres in the L.A. area.  I noticed these trivia:

1  The movie is clearly called "REVENGE of the Jedi" (emphasis added).
   So much for SF-L speculation about Lucas changing the name.

2  Luke Skywalker appears at least twice in the footage.  On each
   occasion he is wearing black; at least once he is standing next to
   Darth Vader (sans violence).  Perhaps he has gone over to the Dark
   Side?  Perhaps he is faking it?

3  In spite of LucasFilms's protests, Obi-Wan appears whole and hearty
   in their preview footage.  If they plan to etherialize him in the
   film, they are certainly taking their time about it.

4  I didn't see any major new characters, but that of course doesn't
   mean that they aren't there.

-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1982 2132-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: How Obia Wan "died"

        This is my theory on what happened to Obi Wan in SW IV:

        Obi Wan realized he might be able to defeat Darth Vader in
mortal combat, but then again maybe not.

        He had trained Luke as best he could in the short time period,
and that if he (Obi Wan) were to fail, it would be up to Luke.

        Luke, along with the others might be able to save the galaxy.
but they were about to be captured.  If this happened, the chance for
victory would be almost non-existant.

        If Obi Wan could cause a distraction for long enough, the rest
might be able to escape.

        Obi Wan was old, and knew he could not exist much longer in a
corporeal form, so, he "phoofed" himself, left this plain and became
one with the force, allowing him to help Luke later on, and, in the
process, providing a diversion to allow the others to escape.

        I think he was already gone by the time the saber touched his
robe.

        "Run, Luke, run!!!)

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 82 16:55:54-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!npoiv!eisx!pyuxbb!pyuxdd!pyuxjj!pyuxcc!djs at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Empire Strikes Back on NPR radio

The radio play The Empire Strikes Back has been recorded (as
previously announced on the net) and will be aired in the NYC area
starting in February on FM 94 WNYC.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 82 19:50:48-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: all this Star Wars traffic on the net

in near-future SF that is salable to the general public.  And that's 
where he makes his money, and goood for him.  However, he said that 
Star Wars and Close Encounters bore the same relation to SF that 
Hitler's invasion of Poland did to the Ten Commandments.  I'm not
quite sure of the comparisons there, but when Bova published my 
indignant response in Analog's Brass Tacks letter column, he allowed 
me to say that I disagreed with him.  I still think it was a case of 
sour grapes:  here this upstart filmmaker, very young, jumps on the SF
bandwagon and makes hundreds of millions of $$$$, while some old-line
writers are working on their first million (or first 100k$).  No
wonder some criticism is forthcoming--space opera pays a helo of a lot
better than serious SF! (The latter defined, of course, as what the
criticizer writes.)

There was never such criticism back in the 50s and 60s when potboiler,
B-gtrade hack films were churned out for the "sci-fi" crowd.  No, the
badmouthing began when the bucks began pouring in.  Think about it.
--Flame off--arlan andrews, american bell, indianapolis

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 6:18-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: hhgttg part 4

***** sri-unix:net.jokes / grkermit!markm /  5:10 pm  Dec 13, 1982

				 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
			Episode 4 - E.C. (The Extra Commercial)

(Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are on their way to
Netrothea. They have successfully escaped both the Flamers and the
Singles.)

Xaphod:	How much longer till we reach Netrothea?
Martin:	Too soon.
Rod:	Quiet!
Gillian:	I can't wait to get there!
Arnold Lint:	I'm just glad we're still in one piece.
Martin:	It doesn't take much to make you happy, does it?

(All of a sudden, a blinding light fills the bridge of the Infinity.
When the light fades, a small, sickeningly adorable creature is
revealed. He is wearing a cap which says "I'm cute, buy me!")

Gillian:	What's that?
Xaphod:	That's E.C. - the Extra Commercial!
Arnold Lint:	The what?
Rod:	The Extra Commercial. The most commercialized being since
  Santa Claus!

["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Santa Claus as a being
from Pluto who suffered severe brain damage when his space ship
crashed on earth. Every year the silly old twit tries to fly an old
sleigh and a flock of equally stupid reindeer back to Pluto.
Unfortunately, his reverse gravity modulator is not 100 percent so he
never quite gets out of earths orbit. This is just as well as the
jerk lost all his deep space gear. Many people on earth have mistaken
the boxes of Kentucky Fried Chicken he carries on his unlikely space
craft (as rations for the trip to Pluto) for presents to be
distributed to children. In actuality, the only reason Fred Glarn
(his real name) ever climbs down chimneys is because he is totally
wasted on Selurian Brandy and he is merely looking for a likely spot
to sleep it off. (Why else would his nose always be red?).]

Xaphod:	I've never met E.C. before, I always though he was just some
  massive advertising ploy.
Gillian:	(To E.C.) Hello, I'm Gillian.
E.C.:	(In a heavy New York - Jewish accent) Oy vey, vhat a trip.
  Say goylie, you're cute.
Xaphod:	Huh?
E.C.:	Don't call me E.C., it's a meshugina name. My real name is
  Phil Moskowitz.
Arnold Lint:	Phil Moskowitz?
Phil:	Yes!, Vhat did you expect - Ricardo Montalban?
Rod:	You're the Extra Commercial?
Phil:	Don't laugh, my brother Saul owns Jordache Jeans!

["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" states that the Jordache Jeans
Company was actually a very clever marketing ploy by the makers of
Preparation H. It was their intention to boost the sales of their
rectal paraphenalia by inducing Americans to stuff their glutious
maxima into overly confined garments. The ploy did not succeed.]

Gillian:	What are you doing here?
Phil:	I'm on my vay to the Net Christmas Special. This year it's
  being hosted by Johnny Arson and Bud McMolson. Vhen you're a purely
  commercial item like me, you have to travel a lot. 
Xaphod:	But you're Jewish, what are you doing on a Christmas special?
Phil:	Believe me, it vasn't my idea. Some people out there actually
  think I'm Christ reborn. I knew a kid in Brooklyn name Jesus
  Martinez, but that's as close as I ever got. Anyvay, I'm hot right
  now in the market, so I go on any show they can get me on.
Arnold Lint:	That's unbelievable! How'd you get started in the
  business?
Phil:
  Vell, I tell ya'. One day I'm sitting there, eating a lox on
  rye, and some movie man comes up to me and says: "I'm gonna
  make you are star".  Next thing I know I'm in some nutso
  movie vith a bunch of little kids. I hate little kids. No
  sooner does the movie hit the screens than there are E.C.
  video games, clothing, silverware, contraceptives, books,
  posters, and kinky undergarments. You name it and I was on
  it. Then came the TV shows and all the publicity events - I
  actually cut the ribbon on the Jimmy Carter Memorial Brothel
  and Pro Shop! Then I had to appear at the opening of "Nukes
  are Us" - a store for budding nuclear powers.

Xaphod:	Wow, thats wild.
Phil:	Vell, I gotta run. 
Gillian:	Bye!

(The bright light once again fills the bridge, it fades and
E.C. is gone.)

Arnold Lint:	That was incredible!
Martin:	If you say so!
Rod:	Quiet!
Xaphod:	Well, we're here . . . Netrothea!
Martin:	Oh joy and yummies.


  	******************** End Of Part 4 ********************

What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find on
Netrothea?  For the answer to this spine-tingling question .
. . Tune in next time . . .  same Net-time . . . same
Net-channel. Also, be sure not to miss the BIG NET CHRISTMAS
SPECIAL starring Johnny Arson, Bud McMolson, Richard Nixon,
Barry Manilow, Richard Simmons, and Teddy the Wonder Lizard.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 12:03-PST
From: mclure at SRI-UNIX
Subject: hh5

***** sri-unix:net.jokes / grkermit!markm / 12:48 pm  Dec 16, 1982

				 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net
					 Episode 5 - Netrothea

(The Infinity is about to land on Netrothea. It is here that Xaphod
hopes to find a wealth of data to sell back to the Net for immense
profits.)

Rod:	Okay Martin, lets land.
Martin:	Do we have to?
Xaphod:	Yes!
Martin:	Very well.
Gillian:	Cheer up Martin, maybe you'll meet a nice lady android.
	Wouldn't that be nice.
Martin:	Not really.
Arnold Lint:	How 'bout a nice male android?
Martin:	That's right more abuse, aren't things bad enough already?
  Besides, how can an android be homosexual? Come to think of it, we
  can't be heterosexual either! How dreadful.
Rod: Quiet, we've landed.
Xaphod:	How fantastic!
Gillian:	How wonderful.
Martin:	How awful.
All:	Oh shut up!
Xaphod:	Right, lets go!

(The door to the Infinity opens to reveal the landscape of
Netrothea.  It is indeed a strange landscape. The ground has
the consistency of a partially frozen waterbed covered with
rich Corinthian leather.  Flames spring forth from the soil
in primordial spleandor, displaying brilliant patterns of
red and green.  Off in the distance, great orange hills
reflect the light of the purple sun. Polka-dotted polygram
clouds move swiftly in uneven patterns across the blue and
grey striped sky. The hills seemed to have been polished by
the winds of time into huge reflective mounds which make
light dance on the valleys below.  Great forests of trees
are off to the right. The trees are only 4 feet tall, but 20
feet wide.  Stainless steel leaves hang from their bubble
gum branches as pink and black steam spews from their
exposed roots. The air stings with the scent of stale
oysters and rotting, 3 day old, MacDougals BigMuck's.  There
is still no sign of civilization. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's
shoulder starts up: "This is David Halfmind. Tomorrow on
'Good Morning Idiots', we'll discuss herpes, the death
penalty, and aerobics at the office. We'll also be talking
with Yassir Arrafat about fashions for hot climates .  In
addition, we'll have some wonderful holiday recipes from the
Ayatollah Khomieni. Also, don't miss our special feature, 'A
trip to the Police Morgue', which we'll show right after the
weather report."]

Gillian:	Ugh, how awful.
Martin:	Thats what I keep telling you.
Xaphod:	Wow, what a great place for a vacation.
Arnold Lint:	Yah, if you enjoy misery.

["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Netrothea as
being in the top 10 places frequented by masochists. The
wretched climate and unfriendly people (who used to inhabit
the place) made Netrothea about as much fun as a spinal tap
performed with a boat hook.  Netrothea's popularity waned as
more and more places of vastly inferior quality were either
discovered or created. When these new, modern,
haunts-for-the-very-sick hit the market, old establishments
(like Netrothea) were doomed. The Netrothean government
tried to boost tourist trade by offering 'Club Mud'
vacations to Netrothea's famous 'Bile Bog', but it was to no
avail.]

Martin:	I can't even enjoy misery, I hate this place too.
Rod:	Quiet!
Xaphod:	Lets go over there.

(Arnold Lint and crew make their way around the 20 foot wide
trees, past the 40 foot tall monolith, under the stopwatch
draped over the towel rack, and over the 10 foot diameter
pimple. They finally arrive at a door set into the ground. A
stuffed penguin stands by the door, on it's head is a button
labeled "Ring for Verbal Abuse". Etched into the door are
the words:

	"X = 101010        Copyrighted by Deep Thought, so bug off".)

Arnold Lint:	One-Zero-One-Zero-One-Zero? What does it mean?
Xaphod:	I don't know?
Gillian:	Should we press the button?
Rod:	Might as well.
Xaphod:	(Trying to open the door) Yah, the door's locked anyway.
	Arnold, why don't YOU press the button.
Arnold Lint:	Thank you very much, I think not.
Martin:	All right, I'll do it.

(Martin presses the button, the door flies open, and a man pops out
to great the Infinity crew. He is dressed in a business suit and
sports a "Stupidity is it's own reward" button on his jacket.)

Man:	Well, what do you want you smelly, squirming insignificant
	vermin?
Rod:	We wanted to get in the door . . . who are you?
Man:	Oh, I'm Flarg Brittashik, awfully nice to meet you.
Xaphod:	(Confused) You're names' what?
Flarg:	FLARG BRITTASHIK, what are deaf as well as stupid? What a
	bunch of mindless, horrific oafs!
Arnold Lint:	Look you, just let us in the door and then push off!!
Flarg:	Why didn't you say so, follow me.

(Flarg descends down the stairs, the rest follow. The stairs form a
spiral, with a half-gainer twist, descending at an incredible rate to
the interior of Netrothea. The stairway is lit by the glow from
hallibut fished out of the sea around the nearby nuclear power
plant.)

Rod:	Where are we going?
Flarg:	WHERE ARE WE GOING?! What a perfectly stupid question. We're
	obviously going down you sickening, malodorous pervert! 
Gillian:	Do you realize that you're insulting us, and then the
	next moment being polite to us?
Flarg:	Oh, am I? I hadn't noticed.
Rod:	Well it's bloody anoying, mate.
Flarg:	Well, tough rocko's if I do, you wiper of other people's
	behinds!

[The act of wiping other peoples behinds, according to "The Hitch
Hikers Guide to the Net", was once considered a quite honorable
profession in certain areas of the Net. In fact, many of the old
regimes went so far as to have Royal Behind Wipers (or RBW's for
those readers used to TLA's - three letter acronyms)  whose sole task
it was to walk around behind his or her appointed monarch with toilet
paper in hand and perform the specified duty. Although this may seem
an unpopular job, the pay was quite good. As such, positions as Royal
'Pooper Scoopers' were often granted based on tournaments. These
tournaments resembled the earth's olympics except for two facets.
First, all events (actually, they only lasted for one event) were
fought to the death. And second, any event thought up had to envolve
the creative use of human excrement. ]

Martin:  You know, I would have thought any place as awful as this
  might have been amusing to me. But it's just as bad as the
  rest of the Net.  Good thing I'm just an android and don't
  have to ponder the reasons why the Net is as it is. I can
  just be content knowing that it can only get worse.

Xaphod:	One more word out of you, and I'll go at your memory banks
	with a chainsaw!!!

	******************** End Of Part 5 ********************

What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find in Netrothea?
Will Flarg Brittashik insult them to distraction? Or are the already
distracted? Will Xaphod end up doing a lumberjack-job on Martin's
memory banks? In the off chance of being told the answers to these,
and other, ad-libbed questions . . . Tune in next time . . .  same
Net-time . .  . same Net-channel.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

1,,
Summary-line: 31-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #121 wrap-up issue
Date: Friday, December 31, 1982 6:22AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #121 wrap-up issue
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL

*** EOOH ***
Date: Friday, December 31, 1982 6:22AM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V6 #121 wrap-up issue
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 31 Dec 1982      Volume 6 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:
    Misc  - filk, puns in SF, Nathan Brazil's death toll, tribbles,
	    best fanzine, bookstores, Lucasfilm device, Gilliand's
	    latest, comics list is born, Childhood's End, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Dec 1982 11:58:34-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: "filk"

   Unfortunately, the FANCYCLOPEDIA is severely dated, not to say
having many errors even in its own time (e.g. its explanation of the
development and exploitation of STEAM, which Lee Hoffman (who was
involved) corrects in IN AND OUT OF \QUANDRY/ (edited by yhos)).
"Filk" is not used as an abbreviation for "filksong"; it's either a
transitive verb (meaning very similar to "parody") or an abbreviation
for "filksing" ("The filk last night was getting \very/ -ose, so I
crashed.") (It has also been used as an adjective with malapropish
intent, e.g. "It were very filk out last night.")

------------------------------

Date: Mon 27 Dec 82 13:38:58-EST
From: Bob Krovetz <KROVETZ@NLM-MCS.ARPA>
Subject: puns in SF

I have recently finished the hugo-winning story "Riders of the Purple
Wage" by Philip Jose Farmer.  The story is full of puns, and it got me
wondering about what other SF stories are especially punny.  The
following ones come to mind:

The Flying Sorcerers by Larry Niven and David Gerrold
Callahans Crosstime Saloon by Spider Robinson
Time Travelers, Stricly Cash by Spider Robinson
The Magic of Xanth series by Piers Anthony
A Loint of Paw by Isaac Asimov (in "Asimov's Mysteries")
The Ferdinand Feghoot series that used to be in F&SF (a collection
of these was published entitled (I think) "The Compleat Feghoot")

In addition, I remember reading a story by Spider Robinson (I think
it was in Analog) which had an absolutely TERRIBLE pun regarding
P.J. Farmer's Riverworld series.  Does anyone know the reference?

I'm interested in works that either have a lot of puns or in which
the point of the story rests on a pun (as in A Loint of Paw).

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 82 10:17:52-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!sultan!dag at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Nathan Brazil's Death Toll

In reply to the comment that Nathan Brazil had topped anyone else in 
death toll:

=~ Nathan Brazil did not "kill" all of the non-wellworld inhabitants.
He altered (eliminated) the equation in which they existed.  This did 
not eliminate their souls, though.  When the well was repaired and the
equations re-established, the souls found themselves in new 
exsistances.  I believe that they even remembered what they had been 
previously.  This was done in order to prevent the universe from being
irrevocably destroyed.  Even with this in mind, he was reluctant to do
it, whereas Tarkin and Vader enjoyed (or seemed to enjoy) what they
were up to.  You don't see Vader running away from those who want him
to destroy the rebel alliance.  ~=

Consider though, one "other" that has not been mentioned...  Gypsy!
He shows all of the important attributes of a Jedi.  Like Obie-Wan he 
is able to make others forget that he is there and make them do things
they would otherwise not do.  I will not say what his connection is
with the universe so as not to spoil it for those who have not yet
read the Chalker "Wellworld" series, but it is much the same as the
force.  And he already knows Obie!

                                        Just entering my 2.8 cents
worth,

                                        Daniel Glasser
                                        ...!decvax!sultan!dag

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 82 12:31:06-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: tribbles, best fanzine, bookstores, - (nf)

Moonstone's is at Pennsylvania Avenue and 22nd street NW. Smack dab
next to Washington Circle and about 2 blocks from the Foggy
Bottom-George Washington University subway stop. A really excellent
place.

                                  Tim McDaniel
                                  (. . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 82 12:43:02-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!pyuxjj!rlr at Ucb-C70
Subject: re:  Lucasfilms device to impose speech on musical instrument

Sounds a lot like an ordinary vocoder (NOT vocoRder) to me.

A vocoder is a device (invented, by the way, at Bell Labs circa 1935)
which imposes the audio spectrum of one sound onto another sound.
What it does is to 1) analyze the spectrum of a sound (usually human
speech) and 2) use this derived spectrum (really the set of amplitudes
measured at a broad band of frequency ranges) to control the level of
a series of bandpass filters through which a second sound is passed.
(You can think of these bandpass filters as a sophisticated version of
an audio equalizer with a large number of sliders, where the position
of the sliders changes over time based on the audio spectra of a
person's speech.)  Simply put, it imposes the characteristics of one
sound onto another, and can thus make virtually any sound with a broad
enough spectrum and long enough duration sound like someone speaking.
It is an extremely common musical/audio device, used by groups like
Kraftwerk and (in a more SF-related vein) by the people who brought
you Cattlecar Fascistica.  The "voice" of the Cylon warriors ("By your
command") was generated by imposing a human voice onto a sustained
buzzer-like sound that does not waver in pitch or volume.  This 
technique should not be confused with genuine computer speech
synthesis, although it is often used to pass for the real thing (esp.
in movies/TV).  There is nothing unusual about Lucasfilm having such a
device.

------------------------------

Date: 12/28/82 1255-EDT
From: THOKAR at LL
Subject: Gilliland's latest

   ``The Pirates  of Rosinante'',  the  third book of  the Rosinante
series by Alexis  Gilliland,  continues in the same  superb style of
the previous two.  The author's only novel length works to date tell
the story of an O'Neil Colony, Mundito(small world) Rosinante, circa
2040  and  its  struggle  for   survival  against  budget  cutbacks,
ecological crisis,   and multi-national-corporate  and international
politics.

   Rosinante  is a  world  populated by  its  constuction crew  plus
several  thousand  deported,  mostly  male,   Texan  collage-student
rioters;  an equal number of Korean female immigrants that Japan was
getting rid of, and several sentient computers,  the most intriguing
members of  the community.    The computers  have achieved  "person"
statis by the legal fiction of incorpating themselves.  Truly unique
characters.

   In book one,  ``The Revolution from Rosinante'',  the mundito and
its two sister colonies are being built by a construction firm owned
by Charles Cantrell  for a multi-corporation venture.   Due to world
recession,   the corporations  plan to  default on  the projects  to
minimize losses.   One mundito, in mid-construction, is destroyed by
rioting,   unpaid construction  workers.   Another  has barely  been
started.  Only  Rosinante is habitable.    Thus,  burdened  with the
outcast  Texans and  Koreans,  Rosinante  decides its  only hope  to
recoup its losses is to go it alone.

   Book two deals  with Rosinante's break from earth.    It adds new
players to the  game and focuses on  the problems of creating  a new
national culture.   The lead computer,   Corporate Skaskash,  in its
personification of Bogart  from ``Casablanca'',  is the  "brains" of
outfit.

   In the latest book Cantrell, governor of the new nation, works to
defend his  coloney from  the Japanese  Space Navy,   who have  been
pirating industrial production.   The  most straight-foreward action
book  of the  three,  it  offers a  host of  technical solutions  to
Rosinante's  political  problems.    A fast-paced  read  and  richly
enjoyable.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1982 1245-PST
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: A new list is borne...

        A new list is being formed:

        COMICS-LOVERS@SRI-NIC

        This list will attempt to cover all aspects of
of the comics, a subsection that has been sorely neglected
by SF-LOVERS (No downplay on that list; it is merely that
comics fans represent only a small faction of that list.)

        For the time being, this list will be an immediate
distribution list, although I can soon see it growing into
a digest.

        So, send your ideas to COMICS-LOVERS@SRI-NIC.  If you wish to
subscribe, send then to COMICS-LOVERS-REQUEST@SRI-NIC.  Note: if you
subscribe soon enough, I'll clue you in on what is planned between
Superman and Lois Lane.

Comically yours,

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 1982 15:29:51 EST (Tuesday)
From: Drew M. Powles <dpowles at BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Childhood's End

To Speaker:

Oops!  You're right.....not centaurs, but satan-like creatures.
However, my original point is still true, the children did not leave
the earth in spaceships......the aliens did.

dmp

------------------------------

Date: 29 December 1982   02:53:46-PST (Wednesday)
From: bothner%Shasta at Sumex-Aim
Subject: "Fans" vs. "readers"

My image of the term "fan" differs somewhat from that of 
...!eagle!mhuxt!mhux1!macrev (I wish people would sign their 
contributions -at the end- with human names or even nicknames), at 
least as it applies to science fiction. "Reading" is an essentially 
passive activity, whereas a fan is someone who engages in fan activity
(fanac). Admittedly there are fans who read uncritically, and others 
who hardly read at all, though I contend that most "real" fans steer 
the middle course. (Of course, these days it seems that fandom is
being swamped by the media fans who seem not to read at all. These
fall into a different category. Even "sf-lovers" isn't immume, as
evinced by this month's pointless, longwinded and repetitious "Star
Bores" discussion.)  Fanac is some subset of, say:
- Publishing, reading or contributing to fanzines (e.g. sf-lovers).
- Attending and possibly helping to run conventions.
- Taking part in other social interaction between fans, such as being
a member of a science fiction club or corresponding with other fans.
(fen? or is that an obsolete term?)

The point of all this is that fandom is a place to meet people (not 
necessarily in the flesh) who share interests with you. And not just 
sf, since there will be many correlations among interests - all of you
should be aware of the big overlap between people interested in sf and
those interested in computers! And if not, their interests, even if 
you don't share them, are at least likely to be ... interesting!  This
is because the incidence of boring or shallow people in fandom is a
lot less than that of the general population.

In conclusion, my connotations of the term "fan" are a lot more
postitive than the general (non-sf) use of the term would imply, and
they have nothing to do with the amount or selectivity of one's
reading.

        --Per Bothner

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 1982 11:39:53-EST
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: definitions--reader vs fan:net.sf-lovers

   As one of the most active fans on this list I think it's fair to
say that
 ...!macrev's distinction between SF "readers" and SF "fans" is
totally at odds with current usage. Certainly there are Trekkies, Star
Warts, and even (to foin a craze) Blakies around the fringes of SF
fandom; they constitute a continuing problem (not just because of the
derided lack-of-critical-sense but also because a significant fraction
of them aren't housebroken), but to the extent that they behave as
macrev describes they have very little to do with the 10,000 or so
active fans in this country. We call most of these people
"fringefans"; perhaps (further deriving from the above naming 
convention) non-fans could refer to them as "fannies"? ( -)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 1982 0908-EST
From: RG.JMTURN.MIT-OZ at Mit-Mc
Subject: Fans and fen

I've seen the flaming about Harper's turn into an attack on fans, and 
I thought I'd get my two cents in.

Talking about fans as a group is a mistake. There are fringe fans, 
media fans, and trufen. There are people who just go to the 
conventions, people who belong to a fan club, and people who are 
heavily involved in the regional and national fanish networks.

You can no more categorize the preferences and tastes of such a 
diverse group than you could the public in general. I think that the 
people who have been flaming so heavily against fandom are afraid that
any identification with it will "taint them" in the eyes of mundanes.

I'm proud to be a fan! I put long hours into my responsibilities to my
local group, and enjoy it. If someone wants to call what I do pap, 
fine. But take a good look at what you're rejecting. Before you 
dismiss fandom out of hand as a bunch of idiots with blasters, 
consider some of the other things fandom and fanish groups do.

I mean, just in the last month, I've helped enter text for a 
anthology, a songbook, and an SF index. I've participated in planning 
sessions of a con, and other things too numerous to mention. If 
someone thinks going to poetry readings is a better use of my time, 
I'll let them have my seat anyway.

                                        FIAGDH,
                                        James

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 30 December 1982  15:43-EST
From: Vince Fuller <VAF at CMU-CS-C>
Subject: [coar.umass: Grossberg and Japan]

Date: 2 Dec 82 00:57-EDT (Thu)
From: the Golux <coar.umass at UDel-Relay>
To:   HUMAN-NETS at MIT-MC
Re:   Grossberg and Japan

O lord! Can't we dispense with the arms race before we start the brain
race?

I just read through my copy of Brunner's ``The Shockwave Rider'' for
about the tenth time, and it raised some questions in my mind
(collaterally triggered by a question about the impact of micros).

In the book, the hardware foundation for the net is rarely referred
to, and is either a terminal or the pleasantly ill-defined 'Fedcomps'
when it *is* mentioned.

Of people who have read the book, I ask: Does the culture Brunner
portrays seem reasonable (i.e., a viable possible future), or is it
off the wall? How does the burgeoning micro market impact the
development of his society? If you believe his future is possibly
ahead (please stipulate for this question), do you think personal
micros will be `part' of the net, serve as mere terminals, or have no
connection to the net at all?  Will their influence deteriorate as
time passes and mainframes get better and more readily accessible?

(yes, yes - I know I forgot to ask about Naomi!)

For those who have not read the book, I recommend it very highly.  It
forms a *very* interesting juxtaposition with Spinrad's ``A World
Between'', as far as the use of computers as a communication medium
goes. (Spinrad's book also rates quite high in my estimation.)

        ken
        coar.umass@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 82 9:00:02-PST (Thu)
From: hplabs!intelqa!omsvax!bb at Ucb-C70
Subject: re: sf puns

The story which involves the pun of the Farmers daughter (P.J. Farmer)
and the time traveling salesman is:
      Have you heard the one ... ?
      Spider Robinson
      Analog June 1980 p. 68 The story concerns Tall Tales night at
Callahan's and includes far more than the final pun.

A friend claims that the story has appeared in an anthology, but I
don't have the reference.

------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 1982 0300-PST
Subject: The Ayes of Texas
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

Suggested reading:

In my opinion, one of the best SF books to come out in the past year
is "The Ayes of Texas" by Daniel da Cruz.  It takes place in the
1990's whenthe main character, a disabled WWII veteran turned
billionair gives a group of disabled vets unlimited funds to make the
retired battleship USS Texas into a modern warship in time for
Independence Day, 2000.  However, it turns out the ship is needed in
1998 to (sort of) single handedly fight the Russians.

There are lots of neat weapons of the future including particle beam 
weapons and the technical details seem to be correct. There is plenty 
of action.

I have never heard of the author before, but the books says he is
currently Professor of Anthropology at Miami University, and served
aboard the USS Texas in World War II.

If you can find it in your sf section, get it.


                        Alan

------------------------------

Date: 30 Dec 82 9:26:26-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jmturn at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: puns in SF

The Riverworld pun comes from another story by Spider, a Callahan's 
story to boot. Don't remember the title.

Another good book for puns is Stardance, by Jeane and Spider.

                                        James

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

