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Summary-line:  1-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #311
Date:  1 Jul 87 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #311
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 87 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #311
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 311

Today's Topics:

               Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Sterling &
                       Tolkien (9 msgs) & Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 12:56:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

     There seems to be quite a few people out there who have
mentioned that they did not like Number of the Beast.  I was
wondering if their reasons were anything close to mine for my
dissatisfaction with the book.  I first heard about it through
reading an excerpt in OMNI.  The excerpt was quite fun and exciting,
and I was quite enthusiastic about getting the book when it appeared
in trade paperback.  I dived right in and then somewhere around the
middle or so things seemed to go nowhere.  It really seemed to me
that he lost track of what he was doing and what the plot was all
about.  There also did not seem to be any sort of satisfying
conclusion.  The ending left me quite puzzled.  Was this a similar
experience for others with the book?

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 05:45:20 GMT
From: hplabs!decwrl!borealis!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>     There seems to be quite a few people out there who have
>mentioned that they did not like Number of the Beast.  I was
>wondering if their reasons were anything close to mine for my
>dissatisfaction with the book.  I first heard about it through
>reading an excerpt in OMNI.  The excerpt was quite fun and
>exciting, and I was quite enthusiastic about getting the book when
>it appeared in trade paperback.  I dived right in and then
>somewhere around the middle or so things seemed to go nowhere.  It
>really seemed to me that he lost track of what he was doing and
>what the plot was all about.  There also did not seem to be any
>sort of satisfying conclusion.  The ending left me quite puzzled.
>Was this a similar experience for others with the book?

   All too true, sadly. Heinlein has never been a master of tight
plotting, but most of his recent books have been particularly weak
in that regard, and TNOTB may be the worst of the lot.
   I just recently finished TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, the new one.
Same problem. It's a better book than TNOTB, but almost nothing
*happens* in the book. Bottom line: yet another RAH novel for
Heinlein fanatics, only. If there's anyone out there who's not
already fanatically pro or con on Heinlein, take my advice and check
out his earlier works; pre-1960 is safest.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!aurora!barry

------------------------------

Date: Tue 30 Jun 87 17:54:15-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re:Gibson-like Sci-Fi

In response to KEith E Aylsworth's request:

Bruce Sterling

He writes great stuff, Which is cyberpunk by definition, and not
Gibson-Clone style-wise.  He has two books out, SCHISMATRIX, and THE
ARTIFICIAL KID.  Both are excellent.

PS: You used that ... HYPHEN word.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
PLEASE don't fire up that discussion again

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 10:19:33 GMT
From: amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue)
Subject: Re: The Istari

Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>I quote from Unfinished Tales, Part Four, Charpter II, "The Istari"
>
>     Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue,
>
> the Blue Wizards either fell prey to Sauron (or even Saruman may
>have disposed of them when he journeyed with them to the East) or
>founded magical cults and traditions which outlasted Sauron.

In our FRP group's collective gaming experience, we have found many
people who seem to think that mages of various types need to be
dressed in blue robes and pointy hats. There is some cultural
tendency towards this also, although I cant think right now of
examples... we have always wondered where the School of Blue Robed
Mages came from. We went so far as to create such a school within
our milieu to accomodate those who **insisted** that their mages
wore blue robes, in spite of repeated cautionings that the more
intelligent of our foes certainly knew about such "uniforms" and
would take action thereon.

Well, we have finally found the founders of the School of Blue Robed
Mages!!! I will have to find the quote and let my friends know...

having fun,
you do too!
amq

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 09:16 PDT
From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Tolkien & Christianity

One thing that bugs me about "interpretation" of others' works is
the fact that if the story is internally consistent, there are a
large number of consistent interpretations.  Hence, the fact that an
interpretation is consistent with the story is no evidence
whatsoever that it is the "correct" interpretation.

In Tolkien's case, we have the word of Tolkien himself that LOTR is
just a story, and that it is not intended to be Christian allegory
or any other kind of allegory.  His aim was to create a heroic story
along the lines of the historical ones that he studied (e.g.
Beowulf).

Tolkien was a product of his upbringing and his society, so his
characters have the characteristics that he considers appropriate -
humility, bravery, etc. for the "good guys", and dishonesty, greed,
etc.  for the "bad guys".  The fact that some of these
characteristics are shared by the biblical figure of Christ does not
mean that the characters are intended to be "Christ-figures".

Why can't people just enjoy the story for what it is rather than
trying to reinterpret it as a Christian allegory or a warning
against apartheid?

Dave

P.S. I don't see what the hypothetical "irrefutable proof of the
existence of God", or his hypothetical rulership over the world
might have to do with LotR and what it represents.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 00:09:58 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

iodine@coral.berkeley.edu writes:
>otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>>(Anyone remember all the wizard colors?)
>As I recall, there were three Istari (wizards) sent into Middle
>Earth: Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Radagast the Brown.
>Radagast's

There were also two Blue Wizards, who "went off into the East and
never returned" (approximate quote from the SILMARILLION).

Brandon S. Allbery
aXcess Company
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210
<BACKBONE>!cbosgd!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,harvard,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
{well,sun,pyramid,ihnp4}!hoptoad!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU (Internet)
ncoast!allbery@CWRU.EDU (CSnet)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 00:46:27 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

It is interesting that the poster starts with:

Q4071@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>The problem is not that people have been speculating about
>Tolkien's beliefs, but that those who have been so doing clearly
>know nothing about them.

and then goes on to say:

>It is almost too painfully obvious to point out the allegorical
>elements in LOTR, but I have seen no poster who dealt with it.
>(Apologies if I have missed a posting due to news feed problems.)
>Aragorn is a Christ figure.  NOT Christ, but a Christ figure.  He
>is returning to his kingdom after having been absent for a long
>time, and having left the kingdom in the charge of stewards.

Every biography I've read about Tolkien indicates that he despised
allegory and that there were no allegorical elements (intended) in
LOTR.  This is probably why nobody's dealt with them.

Brandon S. Allbery
aXcess Company
6615 Center St. #A1-105
Mentor, OH 44060-4101
+01 216 974 9210
<BACKBONE>!cbosgd!ncoast!allbery
{ames,mit-eddie,harvard,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
{well,sun,pyramid,ihnp4}!hoptoad!ncoast!allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU (Internet)
ncoast!allbery@CWRU.EDU (CSnet)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 22:48:24 GMT
From: harvard!linus!dartvax!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek J. LeLash)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

firth@bd.sei.cmu.edu.UUCP writes:
>pdc@cs.nott.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley) writes:
>>  The gist of the theory was that Tolkien's world was an aparteid
>>allegory based on the fact that all all the good guys were white
>>skinned and fair haired etc. Whilst the bad guys were black or, in
>>the case of Saruman ceased to be white when they changed
>>allegiance.
>
>It's unlikely to be an "apartheid" allegory, since LoTR was
>plotted, and nearly all written, before Apartheid existed.

I must disagree with this latter statement.  LoTR was written in the
1940s and '50s; I can't believe that the apartheid system is a more
recent invention than this. (Please alert me if I am mistaken,
however) The idea that Tolkien bases good/evil in LoTR on race and
color might be argued, since he was in fact born in South Africa in
1892, but he has gone on record (somewhere in _Letters_) as saying
"I have a hatred of apartheid in my bones," so doesn't it seem
unlikely that he would have allegorized the situation in S. Africa
depicting blacks as evil?  More likely, as the second poster above
goes on to mention, is that the black/ white split is as old as
moralistic literature.  Remember the Black Knight?  Black things
have always suggested the night, caves, mystery and the unknown,
that which we fear most.  This has nothing to do with people of
color, in my opinion.

Derek LeLash
{wherever}!dartvax!derek
derek@dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jun 87  21:33:35 EDT
From: Ellid@Mars.UCC  (=BPC1C14)
Subject: A few comments on Tolkien

In response to Robert West's long and elaborately letter on the
alleged allegory in Tolkien: Tolkien himself despised allegory in
all forms, which is one of the chief reasons why he could not stand
Lewis's Narnia books, especially the latter ones.  This statement
can be found in Tolkien's collected letters (edited by Humphrey
Carpenter), and in Carpenter's biographies of Tolkien himself and
the Inklings as a whole.  The only sort of allegory Tolkien enjoyed
in any way was the medieval dream vision, and the only dream vision
he ever mentioned favorably in his correspondence was *Pearl*, which
is more of an elegy than an allegory anyway.  To attribute allegory
to a man who hated the allegorical writings of his best friend is
forced, to say the least.  Also, as has been pointed out, the
parallels necessary for allegory simply are not there: Aragorn is
not betrayed and crucified, Arwen Evenstar is not Mary Magdalen
wiping her hair on Jesus's feet, Eomer does not deny Aragorn, etc.
Allegory by its very nature is blatant and quite certain in its
message; there is no room for ambiguity in didactic literature of
this sort.

As for Paul Pudaite's comment about the large vocabulary of "such
scholarly word-smiths as the Inklings" [in a discussion of David
Brin's seeming use of a thesaurus], the vocabulary in both Tolkien
and Lewis is quite simple, almost plain; the only words beyond the
comprehension os a bright child or teenager are in one of Tolkien's
invented languages [Tolkien], or simply aren't there at all [Lewis's
Narnia books].  Indeed, Tolkien has been cited by writers such as
Ursula LeGuin for his masterful use of a simple and relatively
limited vocabulary to achieve an almost classically high literary
style.  The contrast between this simplicity and Stephen Donaldson
demonstrating his ability to use the OED is striking; just because
Tolkien was a highly educated and trained Professor of English does
not mean that he felt compelled to use synonyms whether the story
dictated it or not.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 87 14:48:30 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Tolkien's diction

From:     Ellid@Mars.UCC  (=BPC1C14)
>As for Paul Pudaite's comment about the large vocabulary of "such
>scholarly word-smiths as the Inklings" [in a discussion of David
>Brin's seeming use of a thesaurus], the vocabulary in both Tolkien
>and Lewis is quite simple, almost plain; the only words beyond the
>comprehension os a bright child or teenager are in one of Tolkien's
>invented languages [Tolkien], or simply aren't there at all
>[Lewis's Narnia books].

   Actually, Tolkien used many words which are not in the vocabulary
of the average educated adult.  Offhand, I can think of "ghyll,"
"bollard," and "glede" (the ME spelling for modern "gleed.")  The
interesting thing about Tolkien's diction is that he chooses his
unusual words from early English (rather than classical languages),
thereby infusing his work with an archaic or colloquial flavor.  The
Brin passage quoted by Mr. Pudaite (and many similar passages in
works of Donaldson, Wolfe, and others) are merely pedantic.

>...just because Tolkien was a highly educated and trained Professor
>of English does not mean that he felt compelled to use synonyms
>whether the story dictated it or not.

   I would say that Tolkien's Old English orientation profoundly
affects his diction.  He uses archaisms frequently, but as an
expert, he uses them right.  Authenticity in such matters is
palpable even to those who know only modern English.  In the same
way, Samuel Johnson's elegant latinity justifies a vocabulary which
Brin, Donaldson, et al.  find dangerous.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1987 15:33 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Tolkien and Allegories

The last month seems to be the Annual "Allegory on the Banks
Brandy-wine" symposium on this list.

No matter that Tolkien did deny any allegorical purpose...

No matter that his delightful "Tree and Leaf" booklet and "Smith of
wooton (?) Manor" seem to be Tolkien working out what *he* thought
he was doing...

Could we agree that one of the "good" things about JRRTolkien's work
is that they are rich enough to evoke all manner of resonances in
his readers. A kind of Rorschach Test perhaps....

In an Asimov(?) short story there is a form of entertainment where
you can replay some one else's dream's. One of the most valuable
traits that a professional dreamer could possess is that the dreams
have "overtones". Multiple meanings and symbolisms within them.

THis is a quality that JRRT seems to have.

I recall an article by Moorcock (!) in a magazine, for example, were
he analyses Frodo as a "Faust Figure" and compares him to "Elric of
Melnibone" -- can anyone remember which magazine and when, and has
been republished in book form??

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 03:16:47 GMT
From: morganc@speedy.wisc.edu (Morgan Clark)
Subject: Re: Tolkien (Wizard colors, names)

iodine@coral.berkeley.edu writes::
>otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>>(Anyone remember all the wizard colors?)
>As I recall, there were three Istari (wizards) sent into Middle
>Earth: Saruman the white, Gandalf the grey, and Radagast the Brown.
>Radagast's specialty was nature, more specifically, animals.  He
>was supposed to be able to communicate with any animal.

Actually, there were 5. Saruman (Curunir), Gandalf (Olorin),
Radagast (?), and two blue wizards. I think their names were
Pallando and <?>. They went into the east of Middle Earth (Like
Rhun, Harad, etc.) and were never heard from again. Presumably they
failed in their mission.
 The names are either in the _Unfinished_Tales_ or the appendices to
Return_of_the_King, though I'm not sure which.

Morgan Clark
morganc@poona.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 15:30:26 PDT (Tuesday)
From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Blood of Amber questions (possible SPOILERS)

>The paperback said that the next Amber novel would be out in July
>1987!

   Does anyone have any information on the next Amber novel?  Is it
still scheduled to be out next month?

   Thanks.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #312
Date:  2 Jul 87 0803-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #312
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jul 87 0803-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #312
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 312

Today's Topics:

            Books - Barnes & Brin & Harrison (4 msgs) &
                    Heinlein & Lee & Wells & Zelazny &
                    Horror & First SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1987 23:19 PDT
From: HMICHEL%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Steven Barnes

I enjoyed both "Streetlethal" and "The Kundalini Equation".  Barnes
is one of the masters of pace and energy.  Very few authors are as
able as he to keep me on the edge of every page, continuing to
surprise me, chapter after chapter, building the pace when I was
convinced that he had reached the limit.

That's the good news.  His endings are a different matter.  Insipid
non sequiturs.  Trite.  I am not a fan of "ooie-gooie-love-is-the-
answer" morals.  Sigh.  With such otherwise talent I can only hope
for improvement over time.

By the way, I also was incensed at the obviously racist decision by
the publisher to portray the black protagonist of "Streetlethal" as
a white on the book cover.  The fingers tremble over the keyboard
with indignation.

Michael W. Fleming
Instructional Computing Consultant
Computer Services
California State College
9001 Stockdale Hwy
Bakersfield, Ca. 93311-1099
Business Telephone: (805) 833-2309
                    (805) 833-2115  {message}
Home: 2408 Barnett St.
      Bakersfield, Ca. 93308
Phone: (805) 399-6542
Bitnet:  HMICHEL@CALSTATE
Arpanet: HMICHEL%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 01:15:29 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: uplift war

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
>       I just finished read the _Uplift War_ and noticed a few
>things which I haven't yet seen mentioned: what is this bit about
>humanity being forbidden to uplift other races?  In both _Startide
>Rising_ and _Sundiver_ mention is made of uplifting dogs and
>gorillas; in fact, in _Sundiver_ it says something like, "And when
>Culla learned that Jacob had been involved in the uplift of chimps
>and dolphins, and more recently dogs and gorillas..."

The explanation is right there, in the book.  Humans had begun the
Uplift of all those species before the Contact.  Chimps and dolphins
were the farthest along when Humans got accepted as a sapient race.
In a Galactic Society, where the number of uplifted races determines
the relative prestige of the race, the rights to Uplift a race and,
in many ways, the liberties the Patron race can take with the
Clients' developement are strictly controlled by the Society.

Humans were allowed to continue the Uplift of the races that were
obviously too far developed to stop the project in mid-phase.  The
dogs and gorillas (along with other pre-sapients, I would think,
primarily other apes and cetaceans), if Uplifted, would have
propelled Humans into the elite of the Galactic Society, positioning
them above races like Tymbrimi and Gubru, and on the same level (or
above) as a four-client Thennanin.  Obviously, few, if any,
Galactics were interested in allowing the "wolflings" (whos sapience
some of them still doubted) to reach such heights.  The argument
about the Humans not having successfully proven themselves as an
adequate Patron race (something that would take 60,000 to 100,000
years) also would be valid.

That is why gorilla Uplift efforts on Garth would be considered a
crime.

>... [T]here are many other minor problems with these books.  I'll
>detail them if you want, but they don't seem to detract too much
>from the main story.

Please do!

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 02:04:49 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat

Can anyone out there tell me in which order Harry Harrison's
"Stainless Steel Rat Series" were published?

Or at least the order in which they should be read?

I just bought "The Stainless Steel Rat For President" and "The
Stainless Steel Rat", each obviously the first in two sets??? At
least "The Stainless Steel Rat" is the beginning of the trilogy
including "The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge" and "The Stainless
Steel Rat Saves The World", but does this trilogy come before or
after the "The Stainless Steel Rat For President" series?

Or am I totally off base?

Please help.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada
A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 05:58:44 GMT
From: seismo!utai!calgary!mellon@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry Mellon)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

sean1@garfield.UUCP writes:
> Can anyone out there tell me in which order Harry Harrison's
> "Stainless Steel Rat Series" were published? Or at least the order
> in which they should be read?
>
> I just bought "The Stainless Steel Rat For President" and "The
> Stainless Steel Rat", each obviously the first in two sets???
> [...]

"The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat" - three-in-one book
consisting of:
   The SSR
   The SSR's Revenge
   The SSR Saves the World
"The SSR Wants You!"
"The SSR for President" (NOT the start of a new trilogy)
"A SSR is Born"

"A SSR is Born" is the last SSR book to be published (last period,
according to Harrison); it deals with the start of the Rat's career
on a backwater pork-planet.  It may be read out of sequence; the
others are order-dependant, but not seriously so...  Happy Ratting!

Larry Mellon
University of Calgary
mellon@calgary.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 01:38:50 GMT
From: mordor!styx!ptsfa!rtech!brent@RUTGERS.EDU (Brent Williams)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

sean1@garfield.UUCP says:
> Can anyone out there tell me in which order Harry Harrison's
> "Stainless Steel Rat Series" were published?
>
> Or at least the order in which they should be read?

First, _The Stainless Steel Rat_ was published about 1961.  Then a
few years later, _The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge_.  A couple
years after that one, _The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World_.
Long drought, about 15 years follows.  In ~1981, _The Stainless
Steel Rat Wants You!_.  About 1984, _The Stainless Steel Rat for
President_.  Finally, in about 1986, _A Stainless Steel Rat is
Born_.

The first three are not a trilogy per se, but are often sold as one
volume.

Hope this helps.  Flamers: this is off the top of my head, so don't
bother mailing me nasty notes about the dates.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 18:30:34 GMT
From: dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Darren Leigh)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

sean1@garfield.UUCP writes:
> Can anyone out there tell me in which order Harry Harrison's
> "Stainless Steel Rat Series" were published?
>
> Or at least the order in which they should be read?

I believe it goes like this:

The Stainless Steel Rat
The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge
The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World
Return of the Stainless Steel Rat (??  The one with the gross
   aliens.  My collection is packed away at school)
The Stainless Steel Rat for President
A Stainless Steel Rat is Born     (the prequel to them all, written
   last)

They should be read in order.

Are there any newer ones?  I don't think I've missed any.

Darren Leigh
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
dleigh@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 15:28:54 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

barry@aurora.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes:
>otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>>     There seems to be quite a few people out there who have
>>mentioned that they did not like Number of the Beast.  I was
>>wondering if their reasons were anything close to mine for my
>>disastisfaction with the book.....  [.......]  Was this a similar
>>experience for others with the book?
>
>   All too true, sadly. Heinlein has never been a master of tight
>plotting, but most of his recent books have been particularly weak
>in that regard, and TNOTB may be the worst of the lot.
>   I just recently finished TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, the new one.
>Same problem. It's a better book than TNOTB, but almost nothing
>*happens* in the book.

Well, I'll have to disagree somewhat as to SUNSET: it doesn't have
an action-adventure plot, but things do happen.  The fact that it is
Maureen Johnson's memoirs helps, since there is a natural sequence
of events to follow.  But in any case, the point of this book is not
the story, but the portrayal of what Heinlein seems to think of as
an ideal domestic life.  It's also an affectionate review of the
"future history" series, which, of course, is intended for those who
have read those stories, but, in this case (and in contrast to THE
CAT) doesn't absolutely require the reader to have read the other
books.  All in all, I don't find SUNSET nearly as hard to take as
TNOB or THE CAT.

What I really disliked in TNOB were two things.  First, an author
all of whose characters sound alike (and they do!) should never
attempt a book using four narrators in sequence.  It becomes only
too obvious that one can't tell who the narrator is without looking
at the chapter title.  Second, I don't think Heinlein does anything
with his basic idea of world-as-myth in the book, except congregate
all the characters he likes into a big family party, which seems
both unsatisfying and disrespectful of those readers who either
haven't read those books or don't particularly like those
characters.  It reads very much like Heinlein having fun
irrespective of the readers' reaction.

Now, I also didn't like THE CAT, but one must admit that Heinlein
has tried something in it: if they accept the world-as-myth idea as
true, then Heinlein's characters are forced to the conclusion that
they *are* characters, and that their stories are, in the end,
somewhat arbitrary, dependent on the author's whim.  Thus, the
initial plot isn't resolved--why should it be?  Again, the final
cliffhanger fit into this approach.  I see the book as a failure,
but not an uninteresting one.

I am not a Heinlein fanatic, but I will say this for the man: he
has, with each book in recent times, taken risks, attempted
something he had not done before, stretched himself out.  In most
cases, the attempts have been failures.  But I would rather see this
than the mindless repetition of the same old tricks learned 30 years
ago that we get from other "Golden Age" writers.

Fernando Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 01:40:28 GMT
From: seismo!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: 5th Flat Earth book (Tanith Lee)

I never thought I'd get tired of Tanith Lee's writing style, but in
Night's Sorceries, the plot doesn't have the strength to maintain
interest for more than a few pages at a time.

The book is a series of pastiches, all supposedly intertwined with
the events of Delirium's Mistress, but featuring only very
incidental appearances by earlier characters. Characters and
situations are built up, then dropped without warning, and minor
characters suddenly assume the major roles. Now this is not the
first time this has happened in the series, but it is the first time
for me that I found myself wishing she would stick with a plot line
to its conclusion; there was no sign that the loose ends would be
tied up in the end.

At about the time that I wound up on the moon, meeting "Lord One"
(sounds like Dr. Who to me!), I put down the book in favour of a
couple of others. I don't really look forward to finishing it later,
although I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised.

HOWEVER, I would surely give the first 3 books, _Death's Master_,
_Night's Master_, and _Delusion's Master_ unqualified recommendation
for anyone looking for sorcerous-fantasy SF, and _Delirium's
Mistress_ the nod for anyone hooked by the others.

John

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1987 17:03 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re:  H. G. Wells - Tono Bungay

(Tim Sullivan) citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tims@RUTGERS.EDU writes
>Any comments on the following stories/novels?
>   2. Tono Bungay

This is one of those stories that may or may not be SF. So much of
the novel rings true:
    London (particularly the museums, Camden and Waterloo)
    The country town is a recognizable small town near where I was
       born. (There's a rumor that the narrator's uncle was the
       local pharmacist)
    The hucksterism and advertising style rings true
    The social comment etc
    The love affair (in its time and place)
Only the 'quap' is fictional AND scientific.
but it is a book that I will not discard from my shelves.

I'd like to hear comments on the book "Times to come".  But not on
the FILM please!

Dick Botting
Comp Sci, Cal State, San Ber'do
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
5500, State University Pkwy, San Bernardino, CA 92407
(714) 887-7368 (voice) (714)887-7365(modem: login as guest)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 16:36:34 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Blood of Amber questions (possible SPOILERS)

From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
>>The paperback said that the next Amber novel would be out in July
>>1987!

It's been out for about two weeks.  Beautiful cover.  If you look at
the front page real close, you might see something cute. They again,
you might not.

>     Does anyone have any information on the next Amber novel?  Is
>it still scheduled to be out next month?

Last I heard, it was still scheduled as an Arbor House hardback in
October.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 87  08:45 EDT
From: SAINT%YALEADS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Horror

DANT@TEKLA.TEK.COM (DAN TILQUE) says:
>I suppose this is all a matter of taste, but I'd like someone to
>explain what they like about horror.

   For an in-depth analysis of the horror genre, from one who should
know, I highly recommend Steven King's "Danse Macabre".

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 13:37:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: First SF

    I thought I might as well contribute to the first SF&F
discussion.  I can't remember whether these things were actually the
first I read, but I know they were relatively early.  I might check
on this the next time I am at my parents' house.
    The DUELING MACHINE by Ben Bova was one of the first SF books I
read.  I remember that a whole bunch of my friends had read it and
really enjoyed it so I did the same. It was a wonderful experience
at the time.
    The HIGH KING by Lloyd Alexander was one of the first fantasy
books I read.  I believe we were given the book by a cousin of my
father's because she had something to do with the design of the
book. It was a lot of fun, though, not as much fun as when I read it
later after reading the previous books in the series (The Prydain
Chronicles (?) - the first book is THE BOOK OF THREE, and other
books in the series are THE BLACK CAULDRON, TARAN WANDERER, and
another which I can't remember - perhaps the CASTLE OF LLYR or
something like that. I that is all of them.  There was a later book
called THE FOUNDLING which had some short stories in the same
world.)  Has anyone read any of Lloyd Alexander's later books?
     Other early books/series are the Chronicles of Narnia, the DARK
IS RISING series by Susan Cooper,and Tolkien.  Another series of
books I remember reading early on were mysteries - the Alfred
Hitchcock Presents the Three Investigators series of books.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #313
Date:  2 Jul 87 0834-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #313
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Jul 87 0834-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #313
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 2 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 313

Today's Topics:

         Books - Aliens (2 msgs) & Women Authors (5 msgs) &
                 Title Requests Answered (2 msgs) &
                 New Release Questions & Demons,
         Magazines - Asimov's (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 13:56:38 GMT
From: seismo!scgvaxd!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: lack of non-human-like Aliens (was Re: The Uplift War)

hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai) writes:
>Of course, portraying a totally non-human Alien would be very near
>impossible for the reasons you mentioned.  However, a nice attempt
>is done by Piers Anthony in his _Cluster_ series.

Not a bad series, but the aliens struck me as pretty much humans
with strange shapes.  Rather ordinary, really.

For *aliens*, I recommend Asimov's _The_Gods_Themselves.
_The_Mote_in_God's _Eye, by Niven and Pournelle, is not bad either.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 00:54:11 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: lack of non-human-like Aliens (was Re: The Uplift War)

Stanislav Lem has had some really good (different, non-human) aliens
in his novels.

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 21:56:14 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Women in SF (Marion Zimmer Bradley)

I'm always interested in recommendations of little known authors,
female or otherwise.  And I seem to be reading mostly science
fiction/ fantasy by female authors recently.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 13:05:20 GMT
From: craig@think.com (Craig Stanfill)
Subject: Re: Female author

>linda@hpldola.HP.COM (Linda Kinsel) writes:
>I'm always interested in recommendations of little known authors,
>female or otherwise.  And I seem to be reading mostly science
>fiction/ fantasy by female authors recently.

I would suggest the Ozark trilogy by Susan Hayden Elgin (sp?), a
very interesting (though flawed in some respects) piece of fantasy.
These books are about a magic-based society founded by 10
fundamentalist Ozark families fleeing the wickedness of Earth.

Also, there is the Derini (sp?) series (two trilogies at this point)
by Kathryn Kurtz, which concern a race of magic-using men, and the
efforts of the Church to supress magic.  These books are very much
into political machinations.  I didn't really like them, but that
reflects more on my own distaste for stories based on political
intrigue than on the writing itself; my wife is quite fond of Kurtz.

I don't know if these two authors qualify as little known, but if
you haven't read them you probably should.

Finally, a little known jem: _Star of the Sea_ by Linda Haldeman.  I
don't know if it's in print, but it is very well written.

Craig Stanfill

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 05:46:12 GMT
From: hplabs!decwrl!borealis!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Female author

   Speaking of female SF authors, I haven't seen anyone put in a
plug for Octavia Butler yet. Even when she's bad she's entertaining,
and when she's good, she's *incredible*. Go, now, each and every one
of you, and find a copy of WILD SEED to read.  Feel free to get back
to me for further recommendations when you've finished :-).

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 00:23:10 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: Female author

linda@hpldola.HP.COM (Linda Kinsel) writes:
>I'm always interested in recommendations of little known authors,
>female or otherwise.  And I seem to be reading mostly science
>fiction/ fantasy by female authors recently.

Well she isn't exactly little-known, but one of my favorite authors
is Anne McCaffrey (sp?), author of the Dragonriders of Pern series.
It is by far the best combination of SF and Fantasy that I have ever
seen.  It is incredible how well you get to know her characters, and
her descriptions of character interactions are one of the best, if
not the best I have ever seen. I have just finished "Moreta,
Dragonlady of Pern", and it is the first time a book has made me cry
since I was 12, that is how moving her characters are.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 20:02:30 GMT
From: darcic@midas.tek.com (darci chapman)
Subject: Women in SF (really an informal/incomplete list)

linda@hpldola.HP.COM (Linda Kinsel) writes:
>I'm always interested in recommendations of little known authors,
>female or otherwise.  And I seem to be reading mostly science
>fiction/ fantasy by female authors recently.

Well, I went through the recent postings in soc.women and
rec.arts.sf-lovers and found the following women authors mentioned
at one time or another. I hope that this helps all of us looking
around for such.

Ursula K. LeGuin
C. J. Cherryh
Janet Morris
Mary Gentle
Celia Holland
Marion Zimmer Bradley
C. S. Friedman
Tanith Lee
Elizabeth A. Lynn
Katherine Kurtz
Patricia McKillip
Susan Cooper
Mercedes Lackey
Suzzette Haden Elgin
Octavia Butler
Barbara Hambly
M. K. Wren
Diane Duane
Joanna Russ
James Tiptree, Jr. (aka Raccoona Sheldon, really Alice Sheldon)
Joan Vinge
Mary Stewart

If there's enough interest I will gather more suggestions and update
this list, so feel free to e-mail me.

Darci Chapman
{major backbone}!tektronix!midas!darcic
darcic@midas.UUCP
darcic%midas.tek.com@cs.relay.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 13:08:03 cdt
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
To: wood%general.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM
Subject: "Ralph" book

The book named "Ralph <some number>" mentioned as an aside in the
course of another discusson has to be RALPH 124C41+ (That's "Ralph
One To Foresee For One Plus") by (if memory serves) Hugo Gernsback,
the pioneering SF and electronics editor and writer, who coined the
term "scientifiction" back in the twenties or so...

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 87 10:38:11 EDT
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@wash.bbn.com>
Subject: Starchild

Hi,

    Did anyone ever answer the question about who wrote the
Starchild trilogy?  I didn't see it.

    Anyhow, it was Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson.  Pretty good
read, I give it 2 1/2 stars.  Won't attempt to review, lots of
people can do so better than I (and have), without spoilers.

Ron S.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 03:01:10 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Palmer's new book

Does anyone know when David Palmer's sequel to Threshold is supposed
to be out?

What about Dickson's followup to The Final Encyclopaedia? I believe
it's supposed to be called Childe. He may also be doing another
called Chantry Guild.

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Jul 87 10:40:27 CDT
From: steve@ncsc.arpa (Mahan)
Subject: Devil summoning humans

Jack Chalker wrote _And the Devil Will Drag You Under_ about a
mythical being who sends a human on various adventures to locate
talismans for him.  Out in paperback several years ago- check used
bookstores.

steve@ncsc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 87 03:22:20 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck)
Subject: Asimov's Magazine, and stuff (long, but totally fascinating)

   There are a couple of interesting things about *Isaac Asimov's
Science Fiction Magazine*. First off is the writing itself. For a
few years now, *Asimov's* has received increasing critical
appreciation, including various awards for the fiction it prints and
a Hugo for Shawna McCarthy, who was editor before the reign of
Gardner Dozois.  The July, 1987, issue, in particular, is a very
impressive piece of magazine-making.

     The issue begins with "Yanqui Doodle", by James Tiptree, Jr. (I
don't know how many Tiptree stories were in the pipeline before her
death last month. The current *Magazine of Fantasy and Science
Fiction* promises one forthcoming, but gives no date.) Somewhat
reminiscent of Lucius Shepard's Central American war stories,
"Yanqui Doodle" is about pain and despair. I could not read it
except against the background of recent events and with the
realization that, after this and one or two others, there will be no
more.

     Along less somber lines, there is Neal Barrett Jr.'s
"Highbrow", a love story set in the (a?) future, during the
construction of a half-mile high statue of Richard Nixon, towering
above California coastal towns with names like Milhous and Checkers.
Barrett, a writer who always surprises me, keeps "Highbrow"
absolutely straight-faced, even down to describing the formal
gardens watered by runoff from the mammoth monument, which serve to
delight "Serbian tourists, and assassin couples from as far away as
Spain."

     Another very funny story is "The Faithful Companion at Forty",
by Karen Joy Fowler. This story, then titled "Tonto at Forty", was
pulled at the very last minute from Fowler's collection *Artificial
Things* last fall. (Apparently legal problems concerning David
Brin's "Thor Meets Captain America" frightened the publisher into
removing "Tonto" from the book after review copies had gone out.)
Reviewers loved it - readers couldn't find it. Finally, here it is,
apparently modified out of trademark-infringing form, and one
hilarious piece of work.

     Andrew Weiner, a new writer who is getting good real fast,
checks in with "Rider", and Lawrence Watt-Evans appears with "Why I
Left Harry's All-Night Hamburgers", yet another funny story. The
fiction wraps up with "The Fascination of the Abomination", a
chapter in Robert Silverberg's story of Gilgamesh in Hell. The On
Books column is "The Edge of the Envelope", a continuation of Norman
Spinrad's examination of the effects of pulp traditions on
contemporary sf. (It was in an earlier episode of this discussion
that Spinrad said Those Things about *Ender's Game*.)

     So there you have it. A good issue of a good magazine about
which people are saying better and better things. So what's the
problem?

     Well, in the *Locus* survey of what's going on in sf earlier
this year, Charlie Brown pointed out that *Asimov's* increasing
critical approval has been accompanied by a *decline* in readership.
He suggested that this was somehow connected with a decline in the
number of people who could be attracted to the magazine by Isaac
Asimov's name.

     He's wrong, I think. A simpler explanation is that readers form
their own opinions of what appears in the magazine, and they (some
of them, at least) don't like it. They don't check lists of Hugo or
Nebula nominees, they don't consult anybody's short fiction reviews
to see what's hot and what isn't, they don't listen to con gossip.
They know what they want and, not finding it, they just stop reading
(more importantly, stop buying) the magazine.

     Not only are the people who talk about sf (in reviews, in
ballots) not the same people who pay for most of it, but the two
groups don't agree on much. Rarely are the bestseller list
perennials the topics of review columns. Karen Joy Fowler and Lucius
Shepard and Kim Stanley Robinson (and a dozen others - I'm not
picking on these successes) get their books reviewed and commented
on. Asimov and Anthony and Heinlein and Clarke (and others - I'm not
picking on these successes, either) get their books bought.

     It isn't a bad idea to bear in mind, that while all the
Cyberpunk vs. humanist vs. li-fi squabbles proceed over what gets
published in places like *Asimov's*, most of the readers of sf
aren't listening, and couldn't care less. "Popular" is a relative
term, and when we rail against the unfairness of mainstream critics
in ignoring sf with "real values", we may neglect the fact that most
of it is sheer escapism - and that's the way most of the readers
like it.

     While I can imagine a slightly better world, I don't see how
you get there from here. I don't think it would be a good thing if
everyone liked exactly what I like (or what Norman Spinrad likes, or
what Scott Card likes, or, God help us, even what the inimitable
Mark Giroux likes), and obviously someone who invests the time and
money to read is going to pick whatever pleases that person.

     I dearly hope there's room for all, though, because if there
isn't, what will be left is what pays the bills.

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
U. Texas Astronomy Dept
Austin

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 18:20:47 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Asimov's Magazine, and stuff (*SPOILERS*)

howard@utastro.UUCP (The Duck) writes:
>     There are a couple of interesting things about *Isaac Asimov's
>Science Fiction Magazine*. First off is the writing itself...  The
>July, 1987, issue, in particular, is a very impressive piece of
>magazine-making.
>
>     The issue begins with "Yanqui Doodle", by James Tiptree, Jr...
>
>     Along less somber lines, there is Neal Barrett Jr.'s
>"Highbrow",
>
>     Another very funny story is "The Faithful Companion at Forty",
>by Karen Joy Fowler...
>
> ...Lawrence Watt-Evans appears with "Why I Left Harry's All-Night
>Hamburgers", yet another funny story.
>
>     Well, in the *Locus* survey of what's going on in sf earlier
>this year, Charlie Brown pointed out that *Asimov's* increasing
>critical approval has been accompanied by a *decline* in
>readership.  He suggested that this was somehow connected with a
>decline in the number of people who could be attracted to the
>magazine by Isaac Asimov's name.

I don't have a subscription to any of the various SF magazines, so I
won't pretend to have any kind of informed overview, but I've
noticed in the last couple of issues of IASFM that I've read that
the stories have been selected for what I would call "non-climactic"
plot form.

That is, the stories present interesting ideas, character
development, and so on, but without any kind of structural plot that
includes a revelation or resolution at the end of the story.

Spoilers about the July 1987 issue follow.

 "Yanqui Doodle" is primarily a character study of a soldier used to
 examine some of the moral issues of war and the place of the
 individual in the war machine.  There is a climactic ending in form
 (the soldier guns down some tourists) but the ending doesn't climax
 any of the issues raised earlier in the story - just provides an
 ironic twist.

 "Highbrow" is a cute little story, but again there is no ending per
 se; the story trails off with a lovemaking scene.

 "Faithful Companion at Forty" has a strange ending that is (again)
 unrelated to Tonto except inasmuch as he decides not to return with
 the Masked Man, but Tonto is portrayed as so weary and full of
 ennui that we can't be sure he made his decision for the "right"
 reasons.

 "Why I Left Harry's..." is a "here's some funny aliens" story.  It
 is *really* lacking in story value.  I found it so weak that I
 wonder why it was included.  Simply because Laurence is hot these
 days?

At any rate, before those Appointed to Protect Literature attack me
for not appreciating non-resolution oriented stories, let me say
that I do appreciate them ("Yanqui Doodle" is quite good) - I'm only
advancing the theory that by filling issues with unresolved studies
instead of more traditional story forms, IASFM may be driving off
readership.  It is a classic pattern: IASFM gets critical acclaim
because they publish stuff that impresses critics by being
"different" and loses readers for the same reason.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #314
Date:  6 Jul 87 0836-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #314
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 87 0836-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #314
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 314

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anthony & Bradley &
                    Brin (2 msgs) & Chandler & Gibson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 15:56:04 GMT
From: seismo!scgvaxd!trwrb!ries@RUTGERS.EDU (Marc Ries)
Subject: Re: D.Adams Request

I just finished reading DGHDA.  No flames please, but I haven't read
any of his previous books (but have seen his stuff on PBS and liked
it).

My opinion: It's OK, but not fantastic.  I've definitely read better
Detective/SF books.  One of the reasons I did read it was the plot
line around computers, including the Mac.  In that mode, it did a
decent job.

Marc A. Ries
{sdcrdcf|ihnp4}!trwrb!ries

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 17:58:43 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!kato@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: D.Adams Request

PSST001%DTUZDV1.BITNET@BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>Can someone please mail me the ISBN of the paperback edition of the
>new Douglas Adams book "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency"?

Not yet in paperback - only hardcover (at least in Canada).

But warning - it looks like the start of another trilogy.

JK

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 19:19:22 GMT
From: mordor!styx!ptsfa!pbhye!djl@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Out of Phaze by Piers Anthony

                            OUT OF PHAZE
                                 by
                           Piers Anthony

Out of Phaze is the fourth book in the Apprentice Adept series. The
first three Split Infinity, Blue Adept, and Juxtaposition form a
self-contained trilogy. This book is takes place in the same
universe, but twenty years later. While it could be read on its own,
many of the references will be missed if you haven't read the first
three. The story revolves around the sons of Blue and Stile who are
drawn into the vendetta against their parents. Again the main
characters change frame from Proton where science works to Phaze
where magic does. This time they change minds, but their bodies
remain in their home frame.

This series is the one that I like best of any by Anthony and I am
glad to see him return to Proton/Phaze. Although this book does
reach a conclusion of sorts, it is obviously the start of a new
series. A good book but not destined to be a classic. My
recommendation would be to wait for the paper back to come out and
then read it.

Ace/Putnam
ISBN 0-399-13272-4

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{dual,ihnp4,hoptoad}!ptsfa!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 21:19:28 GMT
From: darcic@midas.tek.com (darci chapman)
Subject: Re: Women in SF

>I used to enjoy her Darkover series; and I tried to read it again
>after finding out her (macro)politics. Things that bothered me were
>1)the emphasis on inheritance in the Darkover series
>2)the privileged class = those who inherited 'laran'
>3)a glorification of vengeance and violence
>4)the Dry Towns as representative of the base part of humanity
>(class warfare, the towns as dry because being un-moneyed.)
>5)the assumption that having the world run by a handful of privileged
>families would be desirable

The very things you claim to be bothered by, are the things I have
thought MZB herself was against.

Regardless, it seems to me that this is the same problem over and
over again.  Just because an author sets up their world a certain
way or explores certain ideas, does NOT mean they themselves believe
that that's the way the world should be.

To quote Bradley directly from _Free Amazons of Darkover_, "...Well,
it seemed a good idea at the time; Darkover is at most a thought
experiment (Gedanken- experiment, in the languate of philosophy).
Societies can be 'tested to destruction' and at least *on paper* and
*in fiction*, Darkovan culture *works*."  [her emphasis].

>I just recently read her short-short "Bride Price" in the latest
>"Friends of Darkover" to reconstruct such a list, in a longer work
>I'd probably find more things to irk me! By the way, I like
>Darkover stories NOT by MZB.

>Now these things I hadn't noticed before knowing her stance on
>Vietnam.  But to me there definitely does seem to be an unpleasant
>undercurrent.

>Maybe my criticisms could be applied to the entire realm of "sword
>and sorcery" genre books. Anyway I get the feeling MZB somehow has
>just 'cashed in' on people being pleased with being presented with
>strong female characters and they miss her basic political message
>of privileged class = right to do what they want.

I will not deny being pleased with her strong female characters,
it's about time, don't you think?

Besides, if you really want to equate her political beliefs with
what she writes, how do you come to terms with a book like
_Forbidden Tower_, where twin sisters and their husbands rebel
against the system and succeed?  This is not an isolated case; again
and again she shows the underdog winning.  I think her "message" (if
you *must* look for one) is much more along the lines of just the
opposite of what you claim. Otherwise, how do explain the
Renunciates and their continued existance in Darkover? They
certainly aren't of the priveleged class (in fact they must disavow
any family ties) and fight for the right to do what they want.
*This* is the cause that I would assume she believed in.

Darci
{major backbone}!tektronix!midas!darcic
darcic@midas.UUCP
darcic%midas.tek.com@cs.relay.net

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 07:55:14 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: uplift war

oleg@quad1.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>>From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
[asking about the prohibition on Humans from uplifting races other
than Dolphins and Chimps, which was first mentioned in Uplift War,
and contrary to earlier references to the uplift of dogs and
gorrilas]
>Humans were allowed to continue the Uplift of the races that were
>obviously too far developed to stop the project in mid-phase.  The
>dogs and gorillas (along with other pre-sapients, I would think,
>primarily other apes and cetaceans), if Uplifted, would have
>propelled Humans into the elite of the Galactic Society,
>positioning them above races like Tymbrimi and Gubru, and on the
>same level (or above) as a four-client Thennanin.  Obviously, few,
>if any, Galactics were interested in allowing the "wolflings" (who's
>sapience some of them still doubted) to reach such heights.  The
>arguement about the Humans not having successfully proven
>themselves as an adequate Patron race (something that would take
>60,000 to 100,000 years) also would be valid.

Well, this is indeed the explanation given in _The Uplift War_.
However, it fails to account for the Kiqui, in _Startide Rising_.
This was the native pre-sentient race found by the crew of the
_Streaker_ on Kithrup. There were several references to saving the
Kiqui for Human uplift (rather than let some nasty Galactic race
have them).

My opinion is that Brin didn't make up that prohibition until after
_Startide Rising_. Maybe one could argue that establishing a claim
to the Kiqui was important anyway, but the fact that uplift
restrictions weren't mentioned at that time indicates to me that he
*probably* hadn't thought to put them in yet.

From _Startide Rising_, p. 90: Sah'ot speaking:

"Alasss. Digging for long-toasted garbage of past Kithrupan
civilizations cannot be half as important as making contact with
pre-sentients and establishing a proper patron claim for you humans.
We fins might have new client cousins before even neo-dogs are
finished!  Heaven help the poor creatures if the Tandu or Soro or
similar ilk collect them!"

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
...seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 15:22:49 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Uplifting the Kiqui

>Well, this is indeed the explanation given in _The Uplift War_.
>However, it fails to account for the Kiqui, in _Startide Rising_

While the real reason for forbidding the uplift of gorillas and dogs
was political, the official reason was to conserve Earth's
presapient resources.  This official reason allows a loophole
through which Earth can get the Kiqui as clients if the post-war
political climate is right, since we see in "Uplift War" that
patronage is, to a large degree, a matter of finders-keepers.

Actually, the prohibition on uplifting gorillas, etc. is not
unreasonable.  (Remember that most of the races that get to vote on
these things are the 'moderates'.)  Humanity is insisting on doing
things *its* way, and there is no question that, in ignoring
hard-earned galactic experience they are going to make some bad
mistakes.  It's one thing to let them try their notions on dolphins
and chimps -- maybe in a few thousand years they'll have learned
some valuable lessons from the experience.

Still, there is a possibility that humans will make a mistake in
their uplift efforts which will prove disastrous to the species
being uplifted.  If I were a galactic I'd also wait to see how human
uplift efforts turn out before letting them at gorillas, dogs, cats
(pure carnivores!), other cetaceans, elephants, .....

(Note that the richness of the pickings on Earth suggests that
galactics don't let their planets lie fallow long enough.  Probably
as soon as a single presapient species shows up on a planet, the
political pressure to move in on that planet and uplift it becomes
irresistable.)

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 14:16:18 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: A. Bertram Chandler [loooonnnnggggg]

> From: alberta!gordon
>     I recently obtained all of the John Grime novels that I know
> of to date, and sat down to order them chronologically
> (storywise).  Below is my first attempt at an ordering....I would
> appreciate any information on additional John Grimes stories, as
> well as any alternate orderings (accompanied, please, with
> justification).
[edited and re-formatted list:]
> 1) The Road to the Rim, 2) The Hard Way Up, 3) Spartan Planet, 4)
> The Inheritors, 5) The Broken Cycle, 6) The Dark Dimensions, 7)
> The Alternate Universe, 8) The Way Back, 9) Contraband from
> Otherspace, 10) The Rim Gods, 11) The Commodore at Sea, 12)
> Gateway to Never, 13) The Big Black Mark, 14) The Far Traveller,
> 15) Star Courier, 16) To Keep the Ship, 17) Star Loot, 18) The
> Anarch Lords, 19) The Wild Ones

The problem with your ordering is that it contradicts the
progression of Grimes' career from the Federation Survey Service to
independent merchant spaceman to the Rim Runners and Rim Worlds
Naval Reserve. This is the order as I see it, classed by period:

I. Federation Survey Service
        (order determined by Grimes' rank)

   1. The Road to the Rim       1967
   2. The Hard Way Up           1972
   3. To Prime the Pump         1971
   4. The Broken Cycle          1979    [1975 in Australia]
   5. Spartan Planet            1969    [1968 in Australia]
        [Original title: FALSE FATHERLAND]
   6. The Inheritors            1972
   7. The Big Black Mark        1975

II. Independent Merchant Spaceman

   8. The Far Traveller         1979    [1977 in Japan]
   9. Star Courier              1977
  10. To Keep the Ship          1978    [1977 in Japan]
  11. Beyond the Galactic Rim   1963
  12. Matilda's Stepchildren    1983    [1979 in Australia]
  13. Star Loot                 1980
  14. The Anarch Lords          1981
  15. The Last Amazon           1984
  16. The Wild Ones             1985

III. Rim Runners  (Astronautical Superintendant)
     Rim Worlds Naval Reserve  (Commodore)
        (order determined by references in each to the others)

   A. Beyond the Galactic Rim   1963  [See Note 1]
   B. Catch the Star Winds      1969    "
   C. The Derek Calver Series:          "
      a. The Rim of Space       1961    "
      b. The Ship from Outside  1963    "
  17. Into the Alternate Universe  1964
  18. Contraband from Otherspace   1967
  19. The Rim Gods              1968
   D. The Empress Irene Series:       [See Note 2]
      a. Empress of Outer Space 1965    "
      b. Space Mercenaries      1965    "
      c. Nebula Alert           1967    "
  20. Gateway to Never          1972
  21. The Commodore at Sea      1971
        [Original title: ALTERNATE ORBITS]
  22. The Dark Dimensions       1971       [See Note 2]
  23. The Way Back              1978    [1976 in Australia]


Note 1: Sonya Verrill guest-stars in both of the Calver books, and
Grimes has a cameo in the second, as well as in the other two listed
books.

Note 2: This series is set in an alternate universe. Grimes, Sonya,
and the *Faraway Quest* pop up for a couple of chapters in NEBULA
ALERT. Grimes again meets the ex-Empress Irene in THE DARK
DIMENSIONS, which also also guest-stars an alternate universe Grimes
and, with Poul Anderson's full permission, Captain Sir Dominic
Flandry.

There are also a large bunch of uncollected short stories sprinkled
throughout the continuity, as well as three other novels that aren't
easy to pinpoint chronologically:

   Rendezvous on a Lost World  1961
   Bring Back Yesterday     1961
   Frontier of the Dark     1984

> Double Books (Might be an error in which story is in which book)
[slightly edited]
> Book 1: The Road to the Rim   The Hard Way Up
> Book 2: The Inheritors        Gateway to Never
> Book 3: The Dark Dimensions   The Rim Gods
> Book 4: Into the Alternate Universe   Contraband from Otherspace
> Book 5: The Commodore at Sea  Spartan Planet

Just to keep things clear (or perhaps cause greater confusion), I'll
point out that this is the way the most recent editions are grouped.
THE ROAD TO THE RIM, THE HARD WAY UP, THE RIM GODS, and CONTRABAND
FROM OTHERSPACE were originally bound with non-Chandler books. THE
COMMODORE AT SEA, under the title ALTERNATE ORBITS, was originally
bound with THE DARK DIMENSIONS. INTO THE ALTERNATE UNIVERSE was
originally bound with another Chandler non-Rim novel, THE COILS OF
TIME. SPARTAN PLANET originally appeared alone from another
publisher.

While I'm at it, here's the rest of Chandler's books:

The Hamelin Plague              1963
The Deep Reaches of Space       1964  [not published in US]
Glory Planet                    1964
The Coils of Time               1964
The Alternate Martians          1965  [sequel to COILS]
The Sea Beasts                  1971
The Bitter Pill                 1974  [not published in US]
Kelly Country                   1985  [1983 in Australia]

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 12:17:24 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Gibson-like Sci-Fi

From:   <JVHWKZA%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>    (Keith E Aylsworth)
> I have recently read _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_ both by
> William Gibson.  I was wondering if there are any other
> books/authors that fall into the same genre as the those two
> stories....

Look for a book entitled MIRRORSHADES: THE CYBERPUNK ANTHOLOGY,
edited by Bruce Sterling, from Arbor House (Gibson's hardcover
publisher). It contains a representative collection of stories and
authors in this category, and it'll give you an idea of who and what
to look for.

By the way, according to the latest LOCUS, William Gibson has
contracted to write the screenplay for ALIEN III (the working
title). Can't you just picture Ripley with mirrorshades? :-)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #315
Date:  6 Jul 87 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #315
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 87 0842-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #315
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 315

Today's Topics:

         Films - Top 10 SF on Video & Movies of Fantasies &
                 The Witches of Eastwick & Dark Star &
                 The Reanimator & The Thing & 
                 Japanimation (5 msgs) & Innerspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 08:31:21 EDT
From: Wes Miller <wesm@mitre-bedford.arpa>
Subject: Top 10 SF on Video

 The July issue of Video Review lists their votes for the top 10 SF
films on video. The article is by David McDonnell, editor of
Starlog. Just thought I'd pass it along for those interested.

   1) THE THING FROM ANOTHER WORLD (1951)
   2) THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL (1951)
   3) WAR OF THE WORLDS (1953)
   4) INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS (1956)
   5) 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968)
   6) PLANET OF THE APES (1968)
   7) STAR WARS (1977)
      THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (1980)
      RETURN OF THE JEDI (1983)
   8) BLADE RUNNER (1982)
   9) THE ADVENTURES OF BUCKAROO BANZAI (1984)
       10) BRAZIL (1985)

   Honorable Mention:

   THEM (1954)
   20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA (1954)
   FORBIDDEN PLANET (1956)
   THE TIME MACHINE (1960)
   DR. STRANGELOVE (1964)
   SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5 (1972)
   CLOSE ENCOUNTERS (1977/80)
   TESTAMENT (1983)
   ALIENS (1986)

   Amoungst the missing on video:

   E.T. (because Speilberg won't release it on video)
   THE BEAST FROM 20,000 FATHOMS (1953)
   THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING MAN (1957)
   SECONDS (1966)
   THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE (1962)
   FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (1968)

   Don't flame me folks...it's not my list.

   An interensting footnote: The article also mentions an ALIENS III
is in development (or is it ALIEN II, or ALIENS II, or MORE ALIENS,
or RETURN OF THE ALIEN, or REVENGE OF THE ALIEN, or.....).

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 87 15:48:55 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans)
Subject: Movies of fantasies

I had the displeasure of viewing the video of the TV production of
"The Martian Chronicles" the other day.  While I absolutely *love*
the book by Ray Bradbury, this video interpretation was annoying,
underwhelming, and disentertaining.

I think that a problem exists in turning fantasy novels into movies.
While horror or science fiction can usually be projected in cinema
by the proper special effects, dialogue, casting, etc (things
Hollywood has years of experience with), the reader of a fantasy has
already interpreted the events in his mind, and has decided what
things looked and sounded like for himself/herself.  The
interpretation of fantasies is up to the individual, like reading
poetry.

Most of you will recall the disgust that erupted when the movie
"Lord of the Rings" came out.  I don't think that that wonderful,
seminal work could ever be filmed and satisfy anyone but the
filmmaker.

Mark Stevans
cci632!mark

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 05:06:25 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!tmca@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Abbott)
Subject: Golem100, The Witches of Eastwick

   Anyone out there notice the similarities between Alfred Bester's
'Golem 100' and the movie The Witches of Eastwick (and presumably the
book, but I haven't read it)?

   Curious that Bester wrote science fiction and John Updike wrote
'mainstream' literature, hmmmm?

Tim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 87 08:29:30 EDT
From: stasheff@elbereth.rutgers.edu (jim stasheff)
Subject: BensonAZ

There was once a film called 'Dark Star' for which the theme song
was Benson, Arizona

does anyone know its original distributor?
current distributor? e.g. on video casette??

summary of plot??

thanks,

jim (not chris)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 87 05:35:50 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) writes:
> From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>> _Reanimator_ is about 3 years old and I'm not sure what story
>> it's from.  Neither movie has much to do with the Cthulhu mythos,
>> but are quite enjoyable horror films, if you like blood and gore.
>
> REANIMATOR is an adaptation of "Herbert West -- Reanimator", which
> is actually a series of 6 shorter stories.  It's tangential to the
> Mythos, in that part of the action takes place in Arkham
> (according to Lin Carter, a mere mention of "Arkham" or
> "Necronomicon" isn't enough to make a Mythos story, but I
>
> I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it manages to avoid
> the same feeling, though I can imagine such a "theme and
> variations" method working in a film.


I didn't think the movie was all that great, but it did keep you on
the edge of your seat!  One thing that did come across was that the
reanimated cat and people really HATED being reanimated.  The cat
was particularily pissed off as I recall.  I liked From Beyond much
better, though it could have had a better ending..

rj pietkivitch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jun 87 11:34:24 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: RE: The Thing

From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack)
>>No way! Carpenter's _The Thing_ (like the 1958 original)

THE THING (FROM ANOTHER WORLD) came out in 1951, not 1958.  It came
out the same year as THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL.  Those two
movies are interesting for being some of the earliest instances of
making movies based on science fiction (as distinct from fantasy)
originally published in US SF magazines.  The NY Times thought a
great deal of THE THING, commenting that we could expect to see a
lot more of the actors (*not* including James Arness, who played the
Thing) and director.  The cast included such notables as Margaret
Sheridan, Kenneth Tobey, Robert Cornthwaite, and Douglas Spencer,
all of whom you of course remember.  The director was Christian
Nyby, a protege of Howard Hawks, who has been credited by some as
the actual director.  In contrast, the NY Times thought THE DAY THE
EARTH STOOD STILL was ho-hum, more of that silly science-fiction
stuff with heavy message overtones.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 87 17:07 +0800
From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: ROBOTECH

I am curious about the Robotech series.  I have caught a few
episodes on the Saturday morning cartoons, (when I am up that
early).  Can someone explain to me what the series is about?  It
certainly doesn't fit the mold for your average kids' cartoon.  My
husband, who is not into SF at all, actually liked it, but commented
that it seemed more like an animated soap opera than a childrens'
program.

Who are the Zentradi, and where did they come from?  Who are the
Robotech Masters?  What is the protoculture and the Invid, and how
are they all related?  Are micronians just another name for
earth-people (humans?).What is robotech VS veritech, and what is
micronization?  Why are the Zentradi fighting the micronians.  I
guess what I would like a basic background on the series...

Natalie

------------------------------

Date: Thu 25 Jun 87 12:24:23-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@sri-nic.arpa>
Subject: Robotech

All the Japanimation discussion piqued my interest to the point that
when I saw Robotech-1, Robotech-2, and Robotech-3 in a local video
store, I had to check them out.  I loved them!

My question for all you fans is: Are other Robotech episodes
available on video, and do the videotapes correspond 1-to-1 to the
TV series (ie, are there 36 videotapes)?

What I would really appreciate would be if someone would post a list
of Japanimation films currently or soon-to-be released, with notes
on whether they are available on videotape yet, whether they are
original Japanese or Americanized, comments on quality and
recommendations pro or con (not asking for much, am I :-) ).  Or is
such a list already available somewhere on the net?

Thanks!

Steve Dennett
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 01:34:11 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

michael@stb.UUCP (Michael) writes:
>sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>The necessary redubbing gives the "lip synch" effect; but what
>gives you things like ...
>
>He only stunned me in the legs
>
>Lets take out there Computer escorts, Robot attack ships, Android
>fighters, etc., etc.
>
>And what are they always drinking?
>
>Originally, it wasn't for kids. They re-aimed it at kids when they
>translated it. The movie was originally marketed at kids, when they
>realized that they didn't know how to market it for the adult
>crowds that showed up.  Yes, the movie was done based on the
>american version.  (this is what I've heard, may not be completely
>accurate).

     Mike, what are you saying here?  Did they do this kind of
Kiddifying to the movie?  They certainly did no such thing to the TV
show.  On the TV show *people* die, people drink what you'd expect
them to drink (Lisa and Claudia certainly do at least.  Lisa didn't
exactly get stoned on rootbeer in
'Season's Greetings')

     The movie version of Macross was equally realistic in its
treatment.  Furthermore, I've seen a bit about Megazone 23 and there
's not much difference in it's
approach (very adult oriented).

     Did they really muck around like that on the Robotech movie?

Cheers!

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 02:04:42 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

okamoto@hpccc.HP.COM (Jeff Okamoto) writes:
>Which movie are you referring to?  There are two: _Macross 84: Do
>You Remember Love?_, and _Robotech: The Movie_.

     I got confused from my various sources on the situation.  I was
refering to "Robotech: The Untold Story" which I had originally
thought was "Macross: Do you remember, love?", but isn't.  As you
correctly point out, the movie is in fact a re-edited version of
"Megazone 23".  The original "Megazone 23" looks pretty good in the
various books I've seen too, but not as good as the Macross movie.
Then again, the Macross movie would have been worse from a
standpoint of continuity.  It had little continuity with the TV
show, even in Japan.

>If you mean the first, then definitely SEE IT!  The quality of
>animation is absolutely INCREDIBLE!  If you mean the second, then
>see _Megazone 23_ instead.  That's where Harmony Gold took it from,
>plus they added some of their own animation (Yawn...).

     I dunno.  I'd like to see both Megazone 23 and "Robotech: The
Untold Story".  From what I've heard, the Robotech version may be
pretty good in its own way.  Apparently they didn't really add their
own animation so much as they spliced in some from Mospeada.
Anyway, we can see if they tie together more of the story lines.

>BTW, the Macross episodes would last 15 hours (36 episodes * 25
>minutes each).  Robotech may be less due to commercials.
>...
>This suggests to me that you mean "Robotech: The Movie".  They cut
>out all the extreme violence and nudity.  R ratings don't tend to
draw >many little kids....

(Blech.  Blame it on all the so-called SF enthusiasts in North
America.  I'm beginning to think SF is just becoming another trendy
pseudo-intellectual shibboleth.  I think most SF's are starting to
exhibit the snobbishness that non-SF'ers used to show SF'ers
generally.  Just another form of closed mindedness to fight.  I
don't know about you guys but I'm 35 years old and have been fighting
this fight for at least the last 20 of them.  I get tired of it I
do.  I remember telling people "hey, Heinlein's a really *great*
writer" and having them say "but he only writes the SF kiddy stuff
doesn't he?" and "But SF isn't just for kids".  Then there was
Marvel comic books.  Now here we are again with Japanese animation.

     I keep thinking to myself "how soon they forget".  Yeah, I do
get tired of it. . . .)

>>     One thing I really want to find out is whether there'll be
>>any new songs for Minmei to sing.  I've heard that there are
>>*many* record albums in Japan as spin off from the TV show.  One
>>person told me there were 15 *albums*.  I find that a bit hard to
>>swallow, but it seems clear that the people doing the voices in
>>the Anime generally are well known there.
>
>Well, in "The Sentinels", Reba West (and one other singer) get
>exactly one new song to sing -- a duet) (I won't explain the
>circumstances).

     Nothing in the Robotech movie?  Eve in Megazone 23 is a singer
among other things (at least as far as I can tell), so there'd be a
good openning for some new songs.  Reba West could really do a good
job.  Heck, Jimmie Flinders (Yellow Dancer) was pretty good too.

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 87 21:41:34 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

Jim Omura and I bandy back and forth:
>Then again, the Macross movie would have been worse from a
>standpoint of continuity.  It had little continuity with the TV
>show, even in Japan.

Continuity-wise, you are correct.  The viewer is supposed to be
familiar with the circumstances surrounding the story line (Crash of
SDF-1, its refit, abrupt takeoff, etc).

>I don't know.  I'd like to see both Megazone 23 and "Robotech: The
>Untold Story".  From what I've heard, the Robotech version may be
>pretty good in its own way.  Apparently they didn't really add
>their own animation so much as they spliced in some from Mospeada.
>Anyway, we can see if they tie together more of the story lines.

Megazone 23 Part 1 contains VERY good animation and has a good
story.  Part 2 is drek.

For "Robotech: The Movie" some Korean animators under the
supervision of Tatsunoko studios did the extra animation.  I have a
friend who has the "extra" material that they did.  It's quite good,
better than I expected.  But it's nowhere near the 30 minutes Macek
claims.

Do you have Robotech: The Movie on tape?

>>Well, in "The Sentinels", Reba West (and one other singer) get
>>exactly one new song to sing -- a duet) (I won't explain the
>>circumstances).
>
>     Nothing in the Robotech movie?  Eve in Megazone 23 is a singer
>among other things (at least as far as I can tell), so there'd be a
>good openning for some new songs.  Reba West could really do a good
>job.  Heck, Jimmie Flinders (Yellow Dancer) was pretty good too.

Mea culpa.  Yes, EVE has a number of songs and they are very good.
But Minmei holds my heart for now.

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Jul 87 22:07:13 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Innerspace

I just went and saw Innerspace, which qualifies as the funniest SF I
have seen in along time.  It stars Martin Short (from Saturday Night
Live) and Dennis Quaid (the Right Stuff and Enemy Mine) as the two
main characters.  The plot is basically Fantastic Voyage, with
Dennis piloting the miniaturized craft.  He is supposed to be
injected into a bunny, but because of the bad guys, he gets injected
into Martin Short instead.  The movie gets pretty slapstick in
places, but it keeps it's humor without losing it's SF bent.  They
do ignore the miniaturized versus unminiaturized problem that
Fantastic Voyage also ignored when they went for air in the lungs,
but in different ways.  Dennis grabs booze as Martin drinks it.  The
one thing they did miss was Raquel Welch (how many guys out there
were willing to help rip those lymphocytes off of her?), but the
girl in Innerspace was almost as cute. Dennis definitely cruised
around much too fast (from the mouth to the pelvis and back in a
minute), but heck it was a comedy, so I can overlook it.

All in all, it is well worth going to.  Check it out.

Jon

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #316
Date:  6 Jul 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #316
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #316
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 316

Today's Topics:

          Books - Clement & Harrison (2 msgs) & Hodgell &
                  Holly (2 msgs) & Lynn (2 msgs) &
                  McCaffrey (2 msgs) & Sturgeon &
                  Weiner & Wells & James White

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 19:00:06 GMT
From: mordor!styx!ptsfa!pbhye!djl@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Still River by Hal Clement

                            STILL RIVER
                                 by
                            Hal Clement

Mr. Clement writes stories about weird and wonderful environments
such as the classic MISSION OF GRAVITY or CLOSE TO CRITICAL or about
really alien aliens such as NEEDLE. Still River is a story about an
environment used by Edgar Rice Burroughs and Lin Carter among others
(I can't be more specific without spoiling it). In this book the
environment is made believable.

In the far future a group of students at a galactic university is
assigned a project. They will be dropped on an enigmatic planetoid
and must discover why it has an atmosphere. This assignment has been
given to hundreds of students before but the reports are sealed to
prevent cheating. Each student has his/her own theory and a plan of
investigation, but the planet has a way of disrupting all the plans.

This is not one of Clement's best books, but if you like hard
science in your science fiction, even a mediocre book by Hal Clement
is better than 95% of the rest of the bookstore.

Ballantine Books
ISBN 0-345-32916-3

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{dual,ihnp4,hoptoad}!ptsfa!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 07:10:59 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>Can anyone out there tell me in which order Harry Harrison's
>"Stainless Steel Rat Series" were published?
>
>Or at least the order in which they should be read?
>
>I just bought "The Stainless Steel Rat For President" and "The
>Stainless Steel Rat", each obviously the first in two sets??? At
>least "The Stainless Steel Rat" is the beginning of the trilogy
>including "The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge" and "The Stainless
>Steel Rat Saves The World", but does this trilogy come before or
>after the "The Stainless Steel Rat For President" series?

The order of the books is as follows: "The Stainless Steel Rat",
"The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge", "The Stainless Steel Rat Saves
the World" (Those three books were later encorperated into the
(3-in-1 volume) book entitled, "The Adventures of the Stainless
Steel Rat"), "The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You", and "The Stainless
Steel Rat for President".  That is the order that they were written
in, and are probably best read in that order.  Then, he wrote one
more book called, "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born", which goes back
in time to trace "the early days of a brilliant criminal career".
You would probably want to read this on first of all, if you're
interested in following a time-line.  Hope this info. helps you.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Jul 87 15:08:17 SA
From: Esa E Eklund <AUT-EE%FINHUT.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: stainless steel rat (not long, not short)

sean1@garfield.UUCP writes:
> Can anyone out there tell me in which order Harry Harrison's
> "Stainless Steel Rat Series" were published?
> Or at least the order in which they should be read?

The following years are from books published by Bantam.  (They can
be wrong, of course. My mom told them to me by phone and she DOES
NOT speak english)

The Stainless Steel Rat                          1961
The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge                1970
The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World          1972
The Stainless Steel Rat Want's You               1979
The Stainless Steel Rat for President            1982
A Stainless Steel Rat is Born                    1985
You Can Be the Stainless Steel Rat               1985???

I guess it's better to read them in order, but having
President as a second to read won't do any harm except

******SPOILER ALERT******
you know Jim get's through Revenge and World alive.
******SPOILER ENDS*******

  However, I think you should not read Want before Revenge, because
you'd miss some details of the grey men. World and President are
quite 'independent' books - nothing extraordinary is revealed from
SSR universe, only something of their kids James and Boliviar. I
personally think President is the best SSR book.
  You can be' is an interactive adventure book from HH. I saw it
yesterday in a store, but I am not sure of the year and neither can
I tell anything about of the quality of it, can someone?
  Those who know, I have a memory, that James and Boliviar are in
their twenties in the end of World and that they are something like
that as well in Want, but are younger in the following book,
President (they quick-graduate from school, are over 20 and can
legally chase girls). Could someone enlighten this to me?
  Are there any Harrison fans in the network (I subscribed last
week)? I really like his stories, they are written in such an old
fashioned way -every chapter ends into a high point in the plot.

  PLEASE, DON'T DISCUSS THIS BEFORE JULY 27TH, I AM ON A VACATION.
:-))

EKLUND
HUPU.UUCP
AUT-EE
FINHUT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 87 17:55:55 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_atty@RUTGERS.EDU (Clisair)
Subject: Re: Female author

ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes:
>linda@hpldola.HP.COM (Linda Kinsel) writes:
>>I'm always interested in recommendations of little known authors,
>>female or otherwise.  And I seem to be reading mostly science
>>fiction/ fantasy by female authors recently.
>
>Well she isn't exactly little-known, but one of my favorite authors
>is Anne McCaffrey (sp?), author of the Dragonriders of Pern series.
>It is by far the best combination of SF and Fantasy that I have
>ever seen.  It is incredible how well you get to know her
>characters, and her descriptions of character interactions are one
>of the best, if not the best I have ever seen. I have just finished
>"Moreta, Dragonlady of Pern", and it is the first time a book has
>made me cry since I was 12, that is how moving her characters are.

McCaffrey is indeed a good choice for reading material, another is
P. C. Hodgell.  She is known for her books-"God Stalk" and "Dark of
the Moon".  These two books are about a young woman that is from a
race of people called the Kencyrath, that is divided by 3 into the
Highborn, the Kendar, and the catlike Arrin-ken.  All have catlike
reflexes and some even have the retractible(?) claws.  They are all
fighting against a force called Perimall Darkling that threatens to
make a desolate waist(?)land out of the chain of creation.
   They are both very good books and I recommend them highly.  It is
also a serries with "God Stalk coming first.  If you read them I
hope you have fun.

Clisair

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 17:56:51 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: J. Hunter Holly

From:   ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
> The book is The Mind Traders by J.Hunter Holly. It may be out of
> print.

Yes, it is. None of her books are currently in print.

> I have it in my library, and it is rather old.

About 20 years old.

> I don't think J.Hunter Holly did much else.

Oh, I don't know. An even dozen novels isn't too bad. One of them
was a MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. novel: THE ASSASSINATION AFFAIR (#10).
She wrote a second U.N.C.L.E. novel, "The Wolves and the Lamb
Affair", but by the time she submitted it to Ace Books, they had
decided to cancel the series. It was eventually published by a fan
press about 10 years ago. In appearance, it looked much like a Star
Trek fan-fiction-zine (it even included, in the back, a fan-written
U.N.C.L.E. story reprinted from an ST zine).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 01:31:52 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: J. Hunter Holly

J. Hunter Holly wrote one of the first (and hence one of my
favorite) sf novels I ever read, called _The Dark Planet_. I haven't
read it for many years, but I remember it as being very good.

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 21:55:38 GMT
From: eric@cfi.com (eric)
Subject: Re: Female author

Elizabeth Lynn wrote a fine fantasy trilogy (Northern_Girl,
The_Dancers_of_Arun, ?) that features aikido and the conflict
between the forms of a feudal society and some of the people in it.

She also wrote The_Sardonyx_Net, which is truly intense but not for
the faint of heart (love, sadism, power...).

...{rutgers,seismo}!husc6!necntc!ima!cfisun!eric

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 22:42:02 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Female author

eric@venus.UUCP (Eric Read -CFI-) writes:
>Elizabeth Lynn wrote a fine fantasy trilogy (Northern_Girl,
>The_Dancers_of_Arun, ?) that features aikido and the conflict
>between the forms of a feudal society and some of the people in it.
>
>She also wrote The_Sardonyx_Net, which is truly intense but not for
>the faint of heart (love, sadism, power...).

She ALSO wrote an INCREDIBLY beautiful sf novel entitled A DIFFERENT
LIGHT.  Bittersweet, and very visual.  Please take a look if you
haven't done so already!

Becky

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 06:55:42 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Another Pern story

ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes:
>I have just finished "Moreta, Dragonlady of Pern", and it is the
>first time a book has made me cry since I was 12, that is how
>moving her characters are.

Have you read "Nerilka's Story"?  It happens at the same time as
"Moreta", and is the story of the Fort Lord Holder's daughter (who
appears briefly in "Moreta"), who helps in getting the needed
medicines to Alessan (despite her father Tolocamp).  It's another
enjoyable Pern story by Anne.  If you haven't read it, get it! :-)

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 05:11:06 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: Another Pern story

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>Have you read "Nerilka's Story"?  It happens at the same time as
>"Moreta", and is the story of the Fort Lord Holder's daughter (who
>appears briefly in "Moreta"), who helps in getting the needed
>medicines to Alessan (despite her father Tolocamp).  It's another
>enjoyable Pern story by Anne.  If you haven't read it, get it! :-)

Regretably, no. Someone posted a list of them once, I think it is
the only one I haven't read yet. I have been looking in libraries
for it, no luck.  I think it's time to hit the local used-book
stores.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 11:23:31 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Theodore Sturgeon

From:   gnome.cs.cmu.edu!hugo
> ...is there any kind soul out there that has the comprehensive all
> knowing list of Sturgeon works that are in print, out of print, or
> even never printed?  Does anyone have little clues as to where to
> find more of his stuff?

Back in 1980, G.K. Hall published THEODORE STURGEON: A PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY BIBLIOGPAPHY, by Lahna F. Diskin.  I don't have a copy,
unfortunately, so I can't tell you how comprehensive it is.

If you just want a basic list of his books, go to a local library
and look for a set of books entitled CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS. Look for
the one that contains the Sturgeon entry.  It should have a
reasonably comprehensive list of his books.  BOOKS IN PRINT (which
the library should also have) can tell you what's in print. Most of
what isn't currently in print should be pretty much findable in good
used-book stores.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 13:42:54 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Asimov's Magazine, and stuff (long, but totally
Subject: fascinating)

I agree that Andrew Weiner is a very good writer, but I don't think
he qualifies as "new" anymore.  He's got over 20 short stories under
his belt, the first of which was published eons ago in Ellison's
AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS.  His first novel, STATION GEHENNA, will be
published in October in hc as part of the "Isaac Asimov Presents"
line.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 14:33:09 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: H.G. WELLS

silber@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>Are there any H.G. Wells fans out there?  I, myself, particularly
>enjoyed his short stories, especially those in a somewhat fantasy
>related vein.  There was one about a man who visited a strange
>alter world, and came back reversed, another about a "Christmas
>Egg" which enabled one to see into another world, and a very
>interesting one about a man who's dreams seemed to be the waking
>life of someone in the future.  I really think that Well's tends to
>be overlooked these days.

Yes! I'm a fan of Wells' novels and stories, and would be keen to
discuss why.  One reason, probably, is that he can write well;
another is that he doesn't just present the SF concepts cold - his
characters slowly discover them (except for The Sleeper Wakes, which
is atypical in many ways)

Two of the stories you mention are 'The Crystal Egg' and 'A Dream of
Armageddon'; I can't identify the "alter world" one.  Of his novels,
I think the best is 'The Island of Dr Moreau', perhaps one of the
most significant books of the century.  And the opening of
'The War of the Worlds' is unforgettable.

His non-SF novels are equally good, if not better.

Robert Firth

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 19:42:33 GMT
From: mordor!styx!ptsfa!pbhye!djl@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Code Blue - Emergency by James White

                       CODE BLUE - EMERGENCY
                                 by
                            James White

A new "Sector General" novel. If you have not read any of the other
books in this series, they are not to be missed. For anyone who
doesn't know, Sector General is a multi-environment hospital built
in the interstellar depths to handle the cases too complex or too
unusual for the planetary hospitals to care for. As all of these
books, it is more a set of connected short stories than a novel.
Unlike the rest, it is told from the point of view of an alien, not
a human member of the staff. This alien female doctor is sent to
Sector General without the usual rigorous screening.  The problem is
that while she is physically alien, mentally she seems to fit in
with the staff very well. When she does react differently than she
is expected to, it causes problems.

As always in this series, the interaction between alien races is the
real story, only this time the earth humans are one of the aliens.
I strongly recommend reading this book and the rest of the series if
you haven't already.

Ballantine
ISBN 0-345-34172-4

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{dual,ihnp4,hoptoad}!ptsfa!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #317
Date:  6 Jul 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #317
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #317
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 317

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Doctor Who (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 12:02:28 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)

langbein@topaz.rutgers.edu (John E. Langbein) writes:
> From: nyssa@terminus.UUCP
>> Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if
>> whatever follows will be near her equal.  (Although Harry did
>> come close...)
>Low Blow! Low Blow! However, I would say Leela would have been a
>better response.

True, but Harry was the next interesting companion.

I rather enjoyed watching his subtle humor, and particularly enjoyed
how he showed up the other companion for the zero her character was.

>> The immediate successor was played by a female.
>A-hem. Are you sure?

Yes.  Elisabeth Sladen is a very lovely young lady.

Even though she is roughly 13 years older than I, when I met her she
looked so young that had we been dating I'd have received
accusations of cradle robbing!

I liked Lis very much.  It is a pity her character (Sarah Jane
Smith) was so bad.

>> The next companion a time lord!  Ha!  She could hardly read a
>> watch!
>Now come on, James. Didn't they teach you proper grammer for proper
>nouns in 3rd grade (wasn't that last year?). You're almost as bad
>as her! :->

Actually, I think of time lord along the same lines as human, and
that was how I chose to handle it.

Of course, there are time lords and Time Lords.

>> He would have been better off if he had.
>NO! He needed a REAL companion. Leela?

Truth.

>Melanie?

Cough cough.

>How about Peri. (I think I just heard 10,000 groans)

Peri had two assets.  You need more than that to make a good
companion.

>> It's a real shame that, since Pat Troughton, there have only been
>> three companions who were really worth their weight: Jo Grant,
>> Leela, and Romana.
>O.K. I'll bite. Which Romana?

Romana II.

James C. Armstrong, Jnr.
(nicmad,ulysses,ihnp4)!terminus!nyssa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 87 10:55 CDT
From: Erstad@hi-multics.arpa
Subject: Doctor Who

(Refering to TARDIS's other rooms)

> one can assume that they were jettisoned in Castrovalva

They only thought that they were jettisoning the rooms, just as
Teegan only thought she was piloting the TARDIS (Which should have
been a tip-off.  Teegan doing something useful?  Heresy).

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 16:45:51 GMT
From: gatech!masscomp!jmw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan Wistar)
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>>BTW, what companions do you like and dislike?
>Oh boy, a long 'un.  (BTW, every time I reply to my companion
>likes/ dislikes, my disk crashes...)
>Great       Good            OK           Bad          Poor
>Ben         Ian             Sarah K.     Susan        Vicki
>Polly       Barbara         Dodo         Katarina     Adric (#31)
>Jamie (#1)  Steven          Sgt. Benton  K-9          Kamelion
>Victoria    Brig. Stewart   Liz Shaw     Tegan        Peri
>Leela       Zoe             Jo Grant     Melanie
>            Harry S.        Cpt. Yates
>            Romana I        Sarah Jane
>            Romana II       Nyssa
>            Turlough

Somehow this choice seems to me a little off.  (I can't rank all of
these companions as I am not conversant with them all, but I'd
re-arrange things to be more like below).  By the way, I'm not so
sure that the "POOR" rating applies to Doctor Who.

Great: Brigadier Alastair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, K-9, Romana II,
       Ian Chesterton
Good: Sarah Jane, Adric, Harry Sullivan, Romana I, Barbara, Jamie
Ok: Tegan, Jo Grant, Peri, Leela, Susan, Nyssa, Yates, Benton
Worse: Turlough, Chamelion (sp.?)

(No particular ranking within groups.)

Jonathan Wistar
MASSCOMP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Jun 87 11:16:34 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)
To: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes:
>>(From what I understand, the real reason is that because Tom Baker
>>wasn't really appearing, they didn't want any of his companions
>>there, either.)
>
> Oh, Like the Brigadier, Sarah, Tegan. . .

No, silly person!  They didn't want any conpanions that EXCLUSIVELY
appeared with Tom Baker.  The Brigadier, Sarah, and Tegan all
appeared with other doctors as well as Tom Baker (especially the
Brig).  You will note that Troughton picked up the Brig and Sarah
first met up with Pertwee: in both cases the characters met up with
the FIRST doctor they knew.  Of course, there are only three
companions that are exclusively TBaker ones: Romana (I and II),
Leela, and K-9.  Now K-9 DID appear in The Five Doctors (shot that
theory down the tubes), but there was NO WAY they could get away
with not putting him/it in!

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 87 00:41:15 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who queries

>from Franco Barber
>Wasn't there a female time lord in "The Invasion of Time?" I am
>referring to the lady working in the security center whom Leela
>meets. I am pretty certain she was said to be a time lord.

Thank you, I'd forgotten about Rodan.  Though I'm afraid she made it
rather easy to do.  I don't know whether she was a Time Lord or not;
certainly she didn't consider herself one.  She considered them "all
the boring people", and regarded a general alarm throughout the
Citadel as their business, not hers.

Still, she was certainly competent: she not only reconfigured the
TARDIS' console for the Doctor, she built the annihilation gun which
was Rassilon's ultimate weapon.  Ironic: the Doctor took care that
she shouldn't remember how it was done, and Rassilon took care that
the Doctor shouldn't remember either.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 87 00:49:06 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: unseen parts of the TARDIS

>Well, in the Invasion of Time (I'm not sure about the title, its
>Leela's last one), we get a guided tour of the TARDIS.

Title correct, but I'd have to say " of part of the TARDIS".
Clearly there is a great deal more that we don't see.  (Why should
we?)  In fact, one gets the distinct impression, watching him
negotiate it, that it's been quite a time since even the Doctor has
seen it.

>This is one time we see a lot more of the TARDIS than just the
>control room.  Since we haven't seen them since, one can assume
>that they were jettisoned in Castrovalva.

One can assume, but I don't think one is safe in doing so.  In
general, we don't see parts of the TARDIS unless there is a reason
for going there.  Now, the latest episode I've seen is "The
Awakening", and that was on tape: our local station is only now
showing "Kinda", so it's going to take a while to get there.  But I
don't recall in any of those episodes any chases through the guts of
the TARDIS: "Terminus" is as close as I think it comes.  So, no
reason to see those parts.

Though you are right that they must have jettisoned a reasonable
amount of mass in Castrovalva, and it must have included *something*
more than the zero room.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 87 01:44:23 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%ICSE.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who (again)

pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
>nyssa@terminus.UUCP writes:
>>Jo Grant was a lovely companion, and I doubt very seriously if
>>whatever follows will be near her equal.  (Although Harry did come
>>close...)

Jo was a delight right from her first moment.  I had heard her
mentioned before, but never seen her, when a delightfully cute(*)
young woman, having just thoroughly coated a demat. circuit in foam,
stuck out an enthusiastic hand and said "I'm your new assistant!
Josephine Grant!"  What a pity that episode has survived only in
black and white!

(*) hope nobody takes "cute" here in a pejorative sense.  Applied to
Jo, it means nothing but good.

(That reminds me: has anybody else formed the impression that when
the Master and radiotelescopes get together, the Doctor should stay
away?  Something monumental always seems to happen to him as a
result.)

I'm glad to hear that somebody else liked Harry, though I sometimes
had the impression that Sarah resented him.  There were times when
he seemed to be made of very solid stuff -- particularly in "Genesis
of the Daleks".  Never saw what kind of physician he could be,
thought: he hardly got to examine anything but corpses.

>Jo Grant was the last (and only?) companion the Doctor really loved.

It's unclear to me how much, or in what way, he loved her.
Certainly he showed no reservations or jealousy when he saw how
deeply she felt for Clifford Jones.  And I always had the strong
impression that he and Sarah became extremely close.  After all, she
was with him longer than any other companion.  My feeling is that
both were dear to him -- though he wound up leaving K-9 III to
Sarah.

>>The companion that followed was much better!!!  They even made a
>>spinoff starring her!  Wheras they didn't even bother showing
>>L**L* on five doctors and she was on Galifrey!

Much as I like Jo, I have to agree.  Sarah was more capable,
depended less on the Doctor (even to leading him around and saving
his tail, on occasion).  It is true that she tending at times toward
unnecessary squealing, but we all have off days.  She is the only
companion I can remember who was ready to twit him back (Romana's
snarkiness doesn't really count, as she wasn't straightening him
out, but simply being objectionable.)  eg.  from Planet of Evil:
   Doctor: "Nothing! What makes you think something's wrong?"
   Sarah : "Because you always get rude whenever you're trying to
           cover up."
eg.  from Hand of Fear:
   "Careful!  That's not as 'armless as it looks."
   Doctor: "Maybe we should try to communicate with it."
   Sarah:  "How?  Use hand signals?"
from Masque of Mandragora:
   "Hey!  I came here with you, remember?  I speaka da preddy good
    English."

She was fun, and more immediately accessible to most of us than were
Leela or Romana.

I think enough silly games were played with Gallifrey in the Five
Doctors that I have difficulty taking it seriously.  The grounds,
for instance, for Borusa's betrayal seem utterly lacking, and the
brutality of the punishment highly inconsistent and unwarranted.  In
fact, I believe that if you drop it entirely from the Doctor's
history, nothing changes.  I wonder, in fact, if this sort of thing
was part of Tom Baker's reason for staying out.

>>Very good!  Full marks.  It's a real shame that, since Pat
>>Troughton, there have only been three companions who were really
>>worth their weight: Jo Grant, Leela, and Romana.
>More like the Second Romanadvoratrelundar and Sarah Jane Smith!
>(OMIGOD!  I mentioned HER name!

I wish I knew what the original posting was.  It looks like fun.  I
suspect our digests are getting randomised en route to us.

Here is an impression I'm getting more and more strongly, and have
yet to see mentioned: the increasing feeling that Romana's first
generation was the better and more competent of the two (and
certainly the better actress).

Why?  It first I thought it was simply my male heart pushing my
opinion around, because Mary Tamm is gorgeous.  "Discard these
unworthy thoughts, and compare the generations with your head."  So
I did.  The first generation comes out ahead.  Compare her reaction
when the Captain was promising her immediate death (she hardly let
him talk long enough to say it), with that of the 2nd to
interrogation by the Daleks ( "False!  False!  False!  Leave me
alone! (almost crying)".  The 1st generation was much more secure
with herself, yet she learned considerably during the Key to Time.
Can anybody really imagine the 2nd generation not uttering a sound
under torture (the Armaggedon Factor) except to order somebody who
could save her to keep quiet?

I wish I had more time to develop the comparison, because I'm more
and more convinced that the second was the weaker of the two.
Anybody want to try to make the opposite case?

This is too much fun: I've got work to do.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 87 12:30 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Doctor Who
Cc: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

On Timelords, Gallifreyans and Guards: In "Invasion of Time" Rodan
tells Leela that she's not going to do anything about her presence
because that's the problem of "The Guards and the Timelords, all the
boring people."  Seems to me this indicates that there are then at
least 3 classes of Gallifreyans: Guards, Timelords and others.

Whenever regeneration is talked about, the word "Timelord" seems to
come up.  One of the most intriguing lines on the subject is from
"Mawdryn Undead" where the Doctor says that if he lets them use up
his remaining regenerations "that will be the end of me as a
Timelord."  Note also that in "Deadly Assassin" when The Master says
he's at the end of his 12th regeneration, The Doctor says something
about "and that is the end for a Timelord."

On Companions: I always thought a companion could be defined as
anyone who traveled with The Doctor in the TARDIS.  Hence, of the
UNIT people, Harry and the Brigadier count.

I used to sincerely dislike Sarah Jane for being such a wimp.  But
that was when I'd only seen Tom Baker episodes.  When I got to see
the Pertwees, especially Sarah's introduction, I was floored.  Was
this really supposed to be the same woman?  I swear, Sarah seems to
have regenerated when The Doctor did.  That's what I call
inconsistancy.

Leela's by far my favorite companion as she makes such a perfect
foil for The Doctor--"all instinct and intuition" while he's all
intellect.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1987 16:43 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Dr. Who: Costumes

Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU> writes:
>The original reason costumes were so bad was that they were on a
>small budget, and they had to make new stuff for all of the scenes
>they needed.  ....  but anything that will be used once is done
>cheaply and, now that it is a running joke, probably even more
>bizzarely than necessary....

You may be right about costumes, but...  when (1974??) was a
consultant to a film company and had to search a warehouse in
Pinewood Studios ( London, ENGLAND) for computer things.  The
warehouse is/was run by a company that specialized in TV and Film
props. I saw much much Dr. Who equipment there.  So I guess that
some of the props are still there and occasionally recycled.

Dick Botting
Comp Sci, Cal State, San Ber'do
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
5500, State University Pkwy
San Bernardino, CA 92407
(714) 887-7368 (voice) (714)887-7365(modem: login as guest)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Jul 87 00:05:35 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%icse.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Dr. Who hypership model

In "Key to Time" #3, "The Stones of Blood", a ship is found marooned
in hyperspace very near Earth.  The model they used for the ship
looks rather like one of the toys in exquisite ironwork that the
Victorians loved.  It's a marvellous model, and I'm very intrigued:
does anybody know what it is, or where it came from?  One thing it
distinctly does NOT look like is any space ship I've ever seen.

Alastair Milne

PS. For those Dr. Who followers who don't recognise this episode,
it's from the Doctor's 4th generation (Tom Baker's).

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #318
Date:  6 Jul 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #318
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #318
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 318

Today's Topics:

                Books - Requests Answered (6 msgs) &
                        Female Authors & Book Search &
                        Recommendations (3 msgs) &
                        Cover Art (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 2 Jul 87 12:33:09-PDT
From: Evan Kirshenbaum <evan@CSLI.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Request answered (Tunnel Through Time) and another

What's the world coming to?  jayembee can't identify a book that
I've read.

From:   nancy!rjd       (Rob DeMillo)
> The first SF that I can remember reading was a book that I ordered
> from a school book drive called "The Time Tunnel," and was
> authored by someone that I should know - unfortunately I have
> forgotten his name. It was your typical time travel story (of
> course I didn't know that then) about a pair of scientists who
> create a time machine and go back to the prehistoric past to see
> all sorts of wonderful things.  (Dinosaurs, old ferns, primitive
> tribes, etc..) This was in about third grade...and the author had
> written the book for little kids... (If anyone can help me out
> with the author's name, I'd appreciate it...it's gonna drive me
> crazy now.)

You must be about my age, Rob.  I got the same book through SBS (I
think it was around 3rd grade, too).  If my memory doesn't fail me,
it's called Tunnel_Through_Time, and it's by Lester del Rey.  It
wasn't my first SF book (that honor goes to The_Callibrated_
Alligator by Silverberg -- the title intrigued me so much that I
finally took out the book to see what it was about), but it was
quite enjoyable.

On a similar subject, another book I got through SBS was called
Stranger_From_the_Depths (or Deep), and was a great juvenile about
an extinct undersea civilization.  My copy is long gone, but I'd be
interested in getting a pointer to another.  I don't remember the
author, but I don't believe that it's anyone I've heard of since.

Evan Kirshenbaum
Internet:  evan@CSLI.Stanford.EDU
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!decvax!decwrl!glacier!evan

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 17:25:10 GMT
From: mjohnson@ncrwic.wichita.ncr.com (Mark Johnson)
Subject: Re: First Science Fiction

rwhite@nu3b2.UUCP (Robert C. White Jr.) writes:
>The First story I read was about people from regil, who look like
>elephants, who come to earth to mine "the stuff of life" from the
>earth.  Durring touchdown they release a substnce that turned every
>living (organic) thing in north america into "living metal." most
>of the above died, the survivors numbering something like six.
>They collected these, and rticulated the metal into robots and
>returned them to their original sorundings so they wouldn't go into
>shock.

The book is entitled "Invaders from Rigel" and was written, I
believe, by either Fletcher Pratt or Lester Del Rey. (I can't
remember which)

Mark Johnson
mjohnson@ncrwic.Wichita.NCR.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 11:40:18 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: First SF

From:   hplabsz!dleigh  (Darren Leigh)
> I guess I got my first real science fiction reading experience in
> fourth grade.  They were passing out paperbacks and I got two: The
> Runaway Robot (by Lester del Rey?) and another one whose title I
> don't remember: it was about the revolution of earth's colony on
> Alpha Centauri...

Well, THE RUNAWAY ROBOT *says* Lester del Rey on the book, a number
of sources say that it was actually ghost-written by Paul Fairman.
The second book has already been mentioned as being Silverberg's
REVOLT ON ALPHA C.

From:   andrew.cmu.edu!haste+   (Dani Zweig)

> I have a vague memory that this was "Invaders from Rigel".
> I don't remember the author...

Fletcher Pratt.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 14:50:53 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: First SF

Earlier, Rob DeMillo mentioned a novel called THE TIME TUNNEL as
being the first sf book he read, but he couldn't remember the
author. I responded that the only books I knew of by that title were
both by Murray Leinster (two separate and distinct novels with the
same title), but that his description didn't match either book.

Well, the true answer was right in front of me the whole time and I
missed seeing it. Leinster wrote *another* book with a slightly
different title --- TUNNEL THROUGH TIME --- that *does* match Rob's
description.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Saturday,  4 Jul 1987 07:37:57-PDT
From: fusci%cogmk.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Ray Fusci)
Subject: Re: re: First SF (Some questions answered)

From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>From:   cc5.bbn.com!levin
>> Then going WAY back, I remember from the elementary level shelves
>> in the Logan Utah public library something called "Little Ball
>> from Mars" ... really no idea who wrote that!
>
>You stumped me. I can't find a reference for any book with that
>title.

Applying one level of indirection, how about an old juvenile *about*
a "Little Ball from Mars"?.

Robert A. Heinlein, _RED_PLANET_, first copyright (c) 1949.  The
following is from the back cover of my 1978 Ballantine copy:

"Willis was a bouncer, a Martian roundhead who looked for all the
world like a hairy medicine ball and who could -- and often did --
function as a complex recorder of what went on around him.

"To Jim Marlowe, he was simply a friend; and wherever Jim and his
pal Frank went, Willis went too.  But they didn't go far, since
their forays were limited by strict rules.

"Then one day Willis unwittingly tuned into a treacherous plot that
threatened all the colonists on Mars...and that set Jim off on a
terrifying adventure that could save -- or destroy -- them all!"

UUCP:   ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci
ARPA:   fusci%scotch.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 17:49:29 GMT
From: aad+@andrew.cmu.edu (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: Request answered (Tunnel Through Time) and another

Yeah, I got that one too.  The time portral showed up as a colored
hula-hoop, they brought a primitive back with them who got scared by
a truck and jumped back through.

Stranger From the Depths! Hot damn!  There are two versions of this
book.  Unfortunately, I lost the long one, but I've got the short
one at home.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 22:34:16 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Female author

Well, I haven't read any really excellent fantasy lately (which
might have something to do with the fact that I can't get to the sf
section of the bookstore without pausing at the mystery section - oh
no, what's HAPPENING to me?!...), but I would like to suggest some
sf novels by Lois McMaster Bujold.  She's one of the really exciting
new (relatively speaking, as always) talents in the genre.  The
three books available are WARRIOR'S APPRENTICE, ETHAN OF ATHOS (my
personal favourite), and one that goes in the middle with a title
that's slipped my mind (surprise, surprise).  All three are set in
the same universe, within one generation (of humans, at any rate),
but each can be read as an individual novel.

I also know someone (through a CJCherryh group) who'd be raving at
you about Judith Tarr by now.  Tarr is also relatively new (I think
her third or fourth novel has appeared), and is writing a fantasy
series similar in concept to the Deryni books, but apparently based
on a historic (medieval? Duh...) period of Earth, with familiar
names and all, rather than someplace that's only similar in fashion
and religion, etc.  I tried Tarr's books but couldn't really get
into them, and I think part of it was that although her setting
might be more `historically correct' than Kurtz', I felt that the
actual lifestyles portrayed in the Deryni books were more realistic
(or FELT more realistic) than what was shown in Tarr's series.
There are other things that bothered me...  Has anyone else out
there an opinion?  At any rate, I've heard a lot of people praise
this new writer, so she's certainly worth a look-see.

Becky Slocombe

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 11:00:13 GMT
From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Uncompleted Series?

A recent posting in this newsgroup (I lost the file!) asked about
the wherabouts of _The Splendour and Misery of Cities, of Bodies_.
This prompts me to try and find out where the following books have
disappeared to.

_Earth Dreams_ Janet Morris.

I've never been able to find this one, and it never was published in
the UK.  Did it see light of day? Volumes i and ii of the _Dream
Dancer_ books were good reads, and I always wanted to find out what
happened to Shebat...

_The Trigon Disunity_ Michael P. Kube-Mcdowell

Are there any more books here, other than _Emprise_ and _Enigma_? I
finished _Enigma_ last night, and it seemed to be crying out for a
sequel!

_The Milieu Trilogy_ Julian May

_Jack the Bodiless_ was meant to have a UK publication LAST August!

_The Worlds Trilogy Vol III_ Joe Haldeman

It's been three years now since _Worlds Apart_...

_The War Against the Chtorr Vol III_ David Gerrold

Now he's left ST:TNG...

_War for Eternity Vol III_ Christopher Rowley

Or are we in Britain stuck in some sort of timewarp?

You'd think with three (3) new SF imprints (not counting Venture
SF!) and two that have specialised for the last n years more of the
books I hear about, and pester bookshops for, would (will?)
appear...

Yours for more SF published in Britain!

Simon Bisson
ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 10:54:06 GMT
From: ee4shb@ux63.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Gibson-like Sci-Fi

From: JVHWKZA <JVHWKZA%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I have recently read _Neuromancer_ and _Count Zero_ both by William
>Gibson.  I was wondering if there are any other books/authors that
>fall into the same genre as the those two stories.  This is the
>first Sci-Fi I have ever read that I felt envious of the characters
>because they were there and I wasn't!

Well Keith, there's quite a bit of it about! Certainly if it's here
in the UK there must be a lot of it on your side of the pond...

Try Gibson's _Burning Chrome_ :-
This is a collection of his short stories, including three or four
in the same background as the Sprawl trilogy ( vol III _The Mona
Lisa Overdrive_ is due out soon )

Anything by Bruce Sterling, especially _Schismatrix_ , need I say
more... just read it!

K W Jeter's "Dr Adder" :-
Weird, but incredibly compelling... very Phil Dickish. I believe
there are other books by him, but they're not out here yet...

Walter Jon Williams' _Hardwired_ :-
I got this as a US import, and really enjoyed it. It is the most
like the Gibson books out of the list here! I believe there is a
sequel to it in the US.

Try also the anthology _Mirrorshades_ (an apt title as ALL cyberpunk
characters wear them! Me, I'd like to, but you can't buy clip ons!!
:-) )

Good luck, and happy reading... but a word to the wise, spread your
styles, SF is an incredibly rich field, I read anything... from
Douglas Adams to Roger Zelazny... and don't let anyone make you
stop!!!

Simon Bisson
ee4shb@uk.ac.bath.ux63

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Jul 87 18:47 EST
From: Matt Kimmel <KIMMEL%ecs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Book recommendations?

Hi,

Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science fiction?
I feel as if I've read every fantasy book that's worth reading.
I've already read the Belgariad, Lord of the Rings, most stuff by
Piers Anthony, the Stainless Steel Rat series, and the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy.  Can anyone recommend something new for me to
read?  Fantasy is preferred, but I'll read Science Fiction in a
pinch.

Thanks,
Matt Kimmel
Bitnet:  KIMMEL@UMAECS
CSNet:  KIMMEL@ECS.UMASS.EDU
Internet:  KIMMEL%ECS.UMASS.EDU@RELAY.CS.NET
UUCP:  ...!seismo!UMAECS.BITNET!kimmel

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 87 14:58:35 GMT
From: mende@aramis.rutgers.edu (Bob Mende)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations?

From: Matt Kimmel <KIMMEL%ecs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science
>fiction?  I feel as if I've read every fantasy book that's worth
>reading.  I've already read the Belgariad, Lord of the Rings, most
>stuff by Piers Anthony, the Stainless Steel Rat series, and the
>Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  Can anyone recommend something
>new for me to read?  Fantasy is preferred, but I'll read Science
>Fiction in a pinch.

Here are a few of my favorites (and some that you might just like...)

Myth Adventures: By Robert Asprin.  A light, humorous fantasy that
will make you laugh.  Good light reading
   Another Fine Myth
   Myth Conceptions
   Myth Directions
   Hit or Myth
   Mything Persons
   Little Myth Marker
   M.Y.T.H. INC. Link
   (more???)

Amber: By Roger Zelazny.  A Cross between Fantay and Sci-Fi.  An
intresting series dealing with the intrigue of the royal family of
the one real world.
   Nine Princes in Amber
   Sign of the Unicorn
   Guns of Avalon               (order of these might be wrong...)
   Hand of Oberon
   Courts of chaos
second series:
   Trumps of doom
   Blood of amber
   (the new one)

mende@rutgers.edu
{...}!rutgers!mende
mende@zodiac.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 12:33:56 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Rowena cover art

From:   sq!bms  (Becky Slocombe)
> Does anyone else out there dislike Rowena's artwork as I do?

Well, I agree that, in general, her work leaves a lot to be desired.
Technically, it's well done, but it ends up looking like generic,
Boris_Vallejo-clone fantasy art.

On the other hand, she has occasionally done some *stunning* covers.
Someone already mentioned the recent editions of Anne McCaffrey's
Harper Hall Trilogy. My two favorite Rowena covers are among her
earliest. One is for E. Hoffmann Price's THE DEVIL WIVES OF LI FONG
(Ballantine-Del Rey, 1979). Some years later, someone started
selling a print of it and I snatched one up immediately. The other
cover was for a Dell paperback edition (circa 1980) of Sturgeon's
THE DREAMING JEWELS, showing a kid with a malevolent-looking clown
doll that'll send chills up and down your spine. I would not be
surprised if the clown doll sequence in the film POLTERGEIST was
inspired by this cover painting.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 00:36:50 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Rowena cover art

Another remarkable Rowena cover graced the 1982 Timescape paperback
edition of Moorcock's THE WAR HOUND AND THE WORLD'S PAIN. This cover
painting is one of the most effective treatments of Lucifer that
I've seen in SF art. It's one of the three or four covers that have
actually caused me to buy a book. Naturally, it was replaced in
later editions.

In answer to Becky's original question, there are a great many
Rowena covers I don't care for, just as there are covers I don't
like by most artists (except maybe Jim Burns). In Rowena's case, I
prefer her work better the farther it gets from the Boris-norm (like
her covers for the 1981-ish Ace editions of the Lafayette O'Leary
books of Keith Laumer, which are actually, and intentionally, funny,
in keeping with the books themselves). There are a great many books
published which go well with Vallejo-type covers, though. As busy as
Ms. Morrill stays, she's certain to do her share of those.

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
U. Texas Astronomy Dept
Austin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #319
Date:  6 Jul 87 0948-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #319
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jul 87 0948-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #319
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 319

Today's Topics:

         Books - Duane & Lem & Lovecraft (7 msgs) &
                 Sterling (4 msgs) & Tolkien (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 87 09:00:14 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Female/not well known authors

I don't know how well Diane Duane is knowm outside Trekdom, but she
has written the best two of the Star Trek novels from pocket books.
Also out are two books in THE TALE OF THE FIVE, THE DOOR INTO FIRE
and TDI SHADOW.  These are among the best fantasy I've read.  They
have really good reviews on the covers, too.  She has written a
couple notable kids' books about wizards, too.

I have a fairly complete list of what she's written around
somewhere, if anybody wants me to post it.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 21:03:49 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: lack of non-human-like Aliens (was Re: The Uplift War)

oleg@quad1.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>Stanislav Lem has had some really good (different, non-human)
>aliens in his novels.

Check out especially "The Invincible," "Solaris," and (his latest)
"Fiasco."

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jun 87 12:32:07 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: HPL and Cthulhu

I am NOT a horror reader, simply because I don't see any real use in
scaring myself. But all this discussion about HPL is kind of
vicariously interesting, and I finally have to ask this:

How does one pronounce "Cthulhu"????  Is it "thooloo" rhyming with
Zulu, or what???

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 19:14:44 GMT
From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: HPL and Cthulhu

ltsmith@mitre.arpa writes:
>How does one pronounce "Cthulhu"????  Is it "thooloo" rhyming with
>Zulu, or what???

According to one source I've read, Cthulhu is derivative of ancient
Summerian gods, and hence is pronounced "Ka-too-loo".  However, when
I pronounce it, it is
        _
   "K-thu-loo".

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 20:09:38 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: How I say "Cthulhu" (and others)

Asks Sheri Smith: "How does one pronounce 'Cthulhu'?"

In one of his letters, HPL said he pronounced it "koot-OO-loo".  In
my own pronunciation, I shorten the first "oo" to something like the
"ou" in "could".

I make the 1st syllable gutteral, and the latter two ululative.
That seems to convey the primitive rhythms the name deserves.

And, while we're on the subject, here are my pronunciations of other
Mythos deities.  I'd appreciate hearing alternate versions,
especially if their documented by the original author's own
pronunciation.

Abhoth          "AB-hoth"
Atlach-Nacha    "AT-lack NOCK-ha"
Azathoth        "AZ-a-thoth"
Bokrug          "BOW-kruhg"
Bugg-Shash      "bug-SHASH"
Byatis          "bee-AH-tiss"
Chaugnar Faugn  "CHAWG-nar FAWN"
Cthugha         "koot-OO-gah"
Cthulhu         "koot-OO-loo"
Cyaegha         "sigh-A-gah" (long "A")
Daoloth         "DOW-o-loth"
Eihort          "EYE-hort"
Ghatanothoa     "gat-TAN-no-thow-a" ("thow" rhymes with "throw")
Ghroth          "GROTH"
Glaaki          "GLACK-ee"
Gnoph-Keh       "NOFF KEH"
Han             "HAHN"
Hastur          "hahs-STOOR"
Hounds of Tindalos  "TIN-dah-lohss" (rhymes with "close")
Ithaqua         "ITH-ah-kwah"
Lloigor         "HLOY-gore" (Welsh "ll" sound)
The Mi-Go       "ME-go"
Nodens          "NO-denz"
Nygotha         "nih-GOTH-ha"
Rhan-Tegoth     "RAN TAY-goth"
Shub-Niggurath  "SHUB nig-GOOR-rahth"
Shudde-M'ell    "should-a MELL"
Tsathoggua      "sath-THOG-gooah"
Ubbo-Sathla     "UBBO SATH-lah"
Y'golonac       "yig-go-LOW-nack" (hardly say the vowel in "yig")
Yibb-Tstll      "YIB sis-STILL" (hardly say the vowel in "sis")
Yig             "YIG" (rhymes with "pig")
Yog-Sothoth     "YAHG soth-THOTH"
Ythogtha        "yuh-THOG-thuh"
Zhar            "ZAHR" (like "czar")
Zoth-Ommog      "ZOTH ahm-MAHG"

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 16:01:06 GMT
From: hao!scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Faulkner)
Subject: Re: HPL and Cthulhu

ltsmith@mitre.arpa writes:
> How does one pronounce "Cthulhu"????  Is it "thooloo" rhyming with
> Zulu, or what???

The current generally accepted way of pronouncing it, especially
with gamers of Call of Cthulhu is:

k(upside down e known as the schwa)-th(u with an umlat)-l(u with an
umlat)

(Don't you love not having phonetic symbols on teminals :-)

or in an easier manner try:
ka-thoo-loo

Please note that this is only one way of pronoucing it.  Others have
different ideas, but the above is easy for speakers of American
English.

Beware of the elder gods!  Nytharlohotep lives!

Bill Faulkner
National Center for Atmospheric Research
PO Box 3000
Boulder, CO  80307-3000
303-497-1259
UUCP:  faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP
       ..!hao!scdpyr!faulkner
INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu
ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 16:38:14 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: HPL and Cthulhu

robert@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen) writes:
>ltsmith@mitre.arpa writes:
>>How does one pronounce "Cthulhu"????  Is it "thooloo" rhyming with
>>Zulu, or what???
>
>According to one source I've read, Cthulhu is derivative of ancient
>Summerian gods, and hence is pronounced "Ka-too-loo".  However,
>when I pronounce it, it is
>        _
>    "K-thu-loo".

I pronounce it "kuh-THOO-loo".  So does Sandy Petersen.

"Don't ever ask me to say `He Who Must Not Be Named'"

BTW, has anyone gotten the "Miskatonic Matriculation Kit" yet?  BTW,
coming soon: "The Arkham Horror", a Call of Cthulhu boardgame.

Jeff Okamoto
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 10:22:03 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: H.P. Lovecraft

From:   drutx!jca       (jill c. arnson)
> As far as I know, HPL only wrote on book that could actually be
> called a book and not a short story.  The title is "The Case of
> Charles Dexter Ward".  Finding a copy may be difficult as I have
> been told it is out of print.  My copy is in paperback by Penguin
> and the date is 1963(?)

Well, someone has already pointed out that THE DREAM-QUEST OF
UNKNOWN KADATH is a full length novel (and, indeed, is much longer
than THE CASE OF CHARLES DEXTER WARD). "At The Mountains of Madness"
is also of novel length. The book of that title also includes a few
other stories, but if you check the page count, you'll see that
...CHARLES DEXTER WARD isn't a whole lot longer than "...Mountains
of Madness".

From:   katinsky@swatsun        (Matt Katinsky)
>   Lovecraft wrote a number of these stories, and then several
> other authors use the same genre, e.g. August Derleth.  I believe
> that Lovecraft knew of and approved of this during his own
> lifetime, but I'm not sure....

Not only did Lovecraft know of it, not only did he approve of it,
but he *encouraged* it. The more people who wrote Mythos stories,
the better he liked it. The Cthulhu Mythos was the first "shared
world" series (if you discount dime novel, pulp, and book series
that were written under house names), and it is still the largest
(if you consider only professionally published works, otherwise,
Star Trek would be far in the lead).

From:   cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu        (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
> There was a US edition [of LOVECRAFT: A LOOK BEHIND THE CTHULHU
> MYTHOS by Lin Carter] published by Ballantine around the mid-70s.
> I don't think it's ever been reprinted....

It was first published in 1972 and had a second printing in
the late 70's.

>> There are occasional extensive postings of Lovecraft/Cthuloid
>> bibliographies on the net. I don't know who compiled the last
>> one.
>
> I've got one that's sort of complete.  If there's interest, I'll
> neaten it up and post it.

Well, *I'd* like to see it. Even a "sort of complete" Mythos
bibliography is a major undertaking.

> Anyone seen Edmund Berglund's "Bibliography of the Cthulhu Mythos"
> or something like that?  I'd like to.

I suspect that you mean READER'S GUIDE TO THE CTHULHU MYTHOS by
Berglund and Robert Weinberg. I have the "Second, Revised Edition",
published by Silver Scarab Press in 1973. I haven't seen a reference
to anything more recent. For the True Fan, it's a very worthwhile
reference, though it does have some flaws.  The most glaring flaw is
over-inclusiveness. Now, if say Robert E. Howard wrote a King Kull
story that had a Mythos reference in it, I can see including it even
if it's ties to the Mythos aren't very strong. But, if Weinberg and
Berglund include one Kull story, they feel obliged to list *every*
Kull story, as well as every Conan story (since the Kull and Conan
series are linked together), even if those other stories don't even
have Mythos references!

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 13:44:43 GMT
From: aad+@andrew.cmu.edu (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: Horror

There's also "Supernatural Horror In Literature" by HPL

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Jul 87 11:36 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: Sterling

>Bruce Sterling
>He writes great stuff, Which is cyberpunk by definition, and not
>Gibson-Clone style-wise.  He has two books out, SCHISMATRIX, and
>THE ARTIFICIAL KID.  Both are excellent.

You forgot HARDWIRED.  I preferred it to SCHISMATRIX.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 22:45:13 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck)
Subject: Re: Sterling

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
>>Bruce Sterling
>>He writes great stuff, Which is cyberpunk by definition, and not
>>Gibson-Clone style-wise.  He has two books out, SCHISMATRIX, and
>>THE ARTIFICIAL KID.  Both are excellent.
>
> You forgot HARDWIRED.  I preferred it to SCHISMATRIX.

I'm sure Walter Jon Williams, who wrote HARDWIRED, appreciates the
endorsement.

I believe Sterling has only three novels: those mentioned in the
original posting, and INVOLUTION OCEAN, his first(?). While AK is
out in a reprint, I don't think I've seen IO anywhere but in used
book stores, lately.

Sterling writes a good deal of very nice short fiction, though.
Check recent Best-of-the-Year anthologies (like Dozois's, if you are
permitted heavy lifting) and magazines like ASIMOV'S and OMNI.
"Green Days in Brunei" and "Dinner in Audoghast" were both nominated
for awards, I think. (These are not Mechanist/Shaper stories, like
SCHISMATRIX. Those stories are a little older, but still in year's-
best anthologies: "Cicada Queen", "Swarm", "Spider Rose", &more.)
Then there's "Red Star, Winter Orbit", written with Gibson, and -
well, he writes good short fiction.

If you liked SCHISMATRIX, you might check out Michael Swanwick's
second novel, VACUUM FLOWERS (serialized in Asimov's last year,
seems like).  Slightly further afield, maybe a little nearer Gibson,
would be George Alec Effinger's WHEN GRAVITY FAILS. (To the extent
that Geo.  Alec is ever like anybody, which is slight.) Norman
Spinrad's LITTLE HEROES is apparently more like his own BUG JACK
BARRON; it seems to be his entry in the Neuromantic Sweepstakes,
anyhow.

"Cyberpunk by definition"?. I don't know. It doesn't really matter,
you see, because Cyberpunk is passe. Steampunk is the big thing now,
with splatterpunk looming on the horizon.

(See also Marc Laidlaw's "Nutrimancer" in the August ASIMOV'S - be
prepared to grin a lot.)

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
U. Texas Astronomy Dept
Austin

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 00:00:19 GMT
From: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!cxsea!blm@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Matthews)
Subject: Re: Gibson-like Sci-Fi

Sterling also wrote "Involution Ocean", another excellent book,
although not as Cyberpunqish as the two you mentioned.

Brian L. Matthews
...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm
+1 206 251 6811
Computer X Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 87 17:57:01 GMT
From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack)
Subject: Re: Sterling

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sterling write a book called
_Involution Ocean_? (Maybe this isn't the same Bruce Sterling.) It
was published in 1977 and has a foreword by Harlan Ellison. It's
fairly well done, although the style is a bit rough. Takes place on
a planet called "Nullaqua", with oceans of dust instead of water.

Dave Mack
McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc.
8201 Greensboro Drive
McLean, VA 22102
(703)883-3911
...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jul 87 22:59:01 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne%ICSE.UCI.EDU@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

>   Actually, Tolkien used many words which are not in the
>vocabulary of the average educated adult.  Offhand, I can think of
>"ghyll," "bollard," and "glede" (the ME spelling for modern
>"gleed.")

"Ghyll", I believe, is a Scots word, and perhaps Northern English
too.  "Bollard" is an ordinary word referring to a low, massive post
or cylinder, firmly embedded in the ground.  Though I'm used to it
as a sailing term -- ships frequently moor to bollards -- I don't
suppose it need be so restricted.  "Glede" I will grant I had to
look up -- but don't forget that it comes from Isildur's document
from the records of Minas Tirith, written just before he left for
the North Kingdom, and therefore is not only in the high style
typical of Gondor, but in the yet higher style of Gondor closer to
her height.

>   I would say that Tolkien's Old English orientation profoundly
>affects his diction.  He uses archaisms frequently, but as an
>expert, he uses them right.  Authenticity in such matters is
>palpable even to those who know only modern English.  In the same
>way, Samuel Johnson's elegant latinity justifies a vocabulary which
>Brin, Donaldson, et al.  find dangerous.

I think this is absolutely right.  And I think this assists the
strong feeling you get that Middle Earth was there long before
Tolkien told us about it -- the English might not be your own
dialect, but it is a fully believable dialect.  Actually, it is
several fully believable dialects, as Tolkien chooses the style for
any one section of the book according to the needs of the drama at
the time.  (He even has some aboriginal, pidgin English for the
headman of the Woses, Gan-buri-gan.)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 87 12:44:19 GMT
From: pdc@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Piers David Cawley)
Subject: Re: Tolkien & Christianity

From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
>Why can't people just enjoy the story for what it is rather than
>trying to reinterpret it as a Christian allegory or a warning
>against apartheid?

 Hear! Hear!
  When I posted the original article on LotR, The Silmarillion et
al.  I made it clear that I did not agree with the theory I just
posted it to see what people thought of the idea. As it turned out
most people disagreed with the idea and concentrated on 'Christian'
aspects of the story. Fair enough it makes interesting reading. I on
the other hand prefer to try and just read stories at face value.
Call me thick but I didn't realise that The Narnia series was a
Christian allegory, just a bloody good read. I have only read two
stories where the underlying message was perfectly clear without
actually spoiling the story. One ("Animal Farm") isn't
sf/sci-fi/skiffy and the other ("The Ballad Of Halo Jones (Bks 1-3)"
By Alan Moore and Ian Gibson) is a collection of comic strips done
for the British 2000AD comic.  Book 3 of the collection contains one
of the most powerful anti-war messages I have ever seen, especially
considering it comes from a comic whose stock in trade is future war
stories.Read it!

Piers Cawley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #320
Date:  7 Jul 87 0755-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #320
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jul 87 0755-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #320
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 320

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bujold & Lovecraft & Lynn &
                        MacGregor & Vance (2 msgs) &
                        Zelazny (2 msgs) & Illuminatus (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 04:30:29 GMT
From: hplabs!cae780!weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Female author

Here are the titles of the Lois McMasters Bujold's novels:

   Shards of Honor
   The Warrior's Apprentice
   Ethan of Athos

I, too, heartily recommend these books.  Bujold is either an
engineer, or someone with an appreciation for engineering, because
all the little technical touches feel right.

Karen L. Black
{pyramid,cae780,sci}!weitek!karen

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 17:05:56 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> I suspect that you mean READER'S GUIDE TO THE CTHULHU MYTHOS by
> Berglund and Robert Weinberg. I have the "Second, Revised
> Edition", published by Silver Scarab Press in 1973. I haven't seen
> a reference to anything more recent. For the True Fan, it's a very
> worthwhile reference, though it does have some flaws.  The most
> glaring flaw is over-inclusiveness. Now, if say Robert E. Howard
> wrote a King Kull story that had a Mythos reference in it, I can
> see including it even if it's ties to the Mythos aren't very
> strong. But, if Weinberg and Berglund include one Kull story, they
> feel obliged to list *every* Kull story, as well as every Conan
> story (since the Kull and Conan series are linked together), even
> if those other stories don't even have Mythos references!

Well, while I see the continuity logic in that, I wouldn't include
them in my Mythos bibliography (except as a footnote (which I will
do, now)) because they don't ALL have Mythos creatures in them.
Yes, "The Shadow Kingdom" makes it in, because the Serpent People
are introduced and are now a part of the Mythos.  But "The Mirrors
of Tuzun Thune", while also a Kull story, contains no references to
the Mythos, nor do any other Mythos stories reference it, so it's
out.  But since the action of "Herbert West -- Reanimator" takes
place in and around Arkham, and since Arkham is so closely linked to
the Mythos, I include it.

By the way, my Mythos bib is currently stored as a LaTeX bib file.
Shall I post that (when I'm done updating it), or would you readers
prefer a plain text file?  Replies to me directly, please, though
the full bibliography *will* be posted to the net.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 19:56:09 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!cfretwell@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Fretwell)
Subject: Re: Female author

eric@venus.UUCP (Eric Read -CFI-) writes:
>Elizabeth Lynn wrote a fine fantasy trilogy (Northern_Girl,
>The_Dancers_of_Arun, ?) that features aikido and the conflict
>between the forms of a feudal society and some of the people in it.

The first book is The Watchtower

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 21:15:12 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE NET by Loren J. MacGregor

                   THE NET by Loren J. MacGregor
                             Ace, 1987
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is the eighth of the new "Ace Science Fiction Specials,"
and I hope it isn't the last, because this would be a weak epitaph
indeed to Terry Carr's selection judgement.  The other entries in
this series were:
   THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson
   GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard
   NEUROMANCER by William Gibson
   PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt
   THEM BONES by Howard Waldrop
   IN THE DRIFT by Michael Swanwick
   THE HERCULES TEXT by Jack McDevitt
and all of them were strong novels, quirky and not to everyone's
taste perhaps, but worthy of being called "special."

     THE NET, on the other hand, is basically a heist novel.
There's some hi-tech shenanigans used to pull off the heist, and
"the Net," people linked in telepathic contact.  Ships are piloted
with a member of the crew for each sense: a Sight to navigate, a
Sound to communicate, a Taste to check the fuel mixture, and so
forth.  Carr describes it in the introduction as space opera and it
is.  There's nothing overwhelmingly wrong with it; it just seems to
crank out the rather mundane story without much flash or style.  Had
it been marketed as a straight science fiction novel, it would have
received luke-warm reviews.  As an "Ace Science Fiction Special," it
may get more negative reviews than it should simply because of the
raised expectations people have of that series.  Perhaps I'm being
too hard on it myself.  But it said "special" on the cover--and it
wasn't.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon Jul  6 14:21:33 1987
From: 321143%PITTVMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Title request

I am reading the Demon Prince series by Jack Vance, but the library
at Pitt doesn't have the fourth book.  Anyone know its name? :-)

The four I know are:
1) Star King
2) The Killing Machine
3) Palace of Love
5) Book of Dreams

I've gotta see if I can order them (all, I guess) for my collection,
but I really want #4 soon so I can finish the series in sequence,
although it doesn't really seem that vital.

jeff sullivan
12321_321143@PittVMS on BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 02:18:17 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Title request

From: 321143%PITTVMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>I am reading the Demon Prince series by Jack Vance, but the library
>at Pitt doesn't have the fourth book.  Anyone know its name? :-)

It is called "The Face".

Joe Kalash
{sun,lll-lcc,pyramid,ucbvax}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 15:35:22 GMT
From: hplabs!felix!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Weinberger)
Subject: Re: Blood of Amber questions (possible SPOILERS)

cate3.pa@Xerox.COM writes:
>The paperback said that the next Amber novel would be out in July
>1987!

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>It's been out for about two weeks.  Beautiful cover.  If you look
>at the front page real close, you might see something cute. They
>again, you might not.

I saw it, Chuq.  You are perhaps a bit too modest.  For those who
haven't seen it, the first page of the _Blood_of_Amber_ paperback
has the usual favorable reviews from various places.  One of which,
in this case, is from Usenet's (sort of) own OtherRealms.  [Keep up
the good work.]

Regards,
Bill Weinberger
FileNet Corporation
...! {decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !trwrb!felix!billw

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 87 20:26:45 GMT
From: hplabs!qantel!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Blood of Amber questions (possible SPOILERS)

From: cate3.pa@Xerox.COM
>The paperback said that the next Amber novel would be out in July
>1987!

You mean book 3 in hardback?  Yesterday I phoned The Other Change of
Hobbit.  They hadn't heard anything about this.  I would love for
them to be wrong, though...

If you mean Blood of Amber in paperback, it has been out for 3
weeks.

Now you've got me all worked up again....

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 13:04:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: ILLUMINATUS!

     Has anybody out there read the ILLUMINATUS! Trilogy (The Eye in
the Pyramid, The Golden Apple, Leviathan) by Robert Shea and Robert
Anton Wilson (I think the names and titles are correct, but my
volume isn't here with me so I can't be positive) ?  I just finished
reading it in one volume (which is the only way you can get it in
new book stores these days). It was quite a weird book, but overall
fun.  On the back they have a quote from inside the book calling it
a "fantasy for paranoids".  It really is quite interesting how we
are told all sorts of things at different times and then "learn"
that they are wrong and something else is correct.  Any thoughts on
it?
    Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new book(s)
relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything about them
and how good they are?

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 22:10:42 GMT
From: abbott@dean.berkeley.edu (+Mark Abbott)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
>    Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
>authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
>book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
>about them and how good they are?

   Robert Anton Wilson has also written a trilogy that deals in a
large part with the Illuminati.  The three books are:

Schrodinger's Cat
The Trick Top Hat
The Universe Next Door

I haven't seen any of these in the local book stores in several
years- I've been looking since I loaned mine out and never got them
back.  They're all quite weird but really good fun.  They wander
this way and that with no real plot and apparently no point except
to play a bit with your mind.  Deals a lot with quantum mechanics,
drugs, mysticism, and lots of sex.  If you insist on coherent story
lines don't bother.  I strongly recommend these as a light romp.

Mark Abbott
abbott@dean.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!dean!abbott

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 00:55:00 GMT
From: rmr@chefchu.sgi.com (Robert Reimann)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>     Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
> authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
> book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
> about them and how good they are?

The primary theme of ILLUMINATUS! is conspiracy and disinformation;
it is a satire of these.

Robert Anton Wilson has written a whole slew of books, all of which
touch on issues raised in ILLUMINATUS!  Shea, to my knowledge, has
not written any further volumes.

Wilson's works include the following (short desciption included):

The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy:

1. The Universe Next Door
2. The Homing Pigeons
3. The Trick Top Hat

These three books are a spoof of quantum physics; each is written in
a different form; the first represents the Everett-Wheeler-Graham
model (multi-universe), the second represents non-locality of
events, the third represents non-objectivity (nothing is "real").

The amusing thing about these books is that they can be read in any
order.  They are each analogues of each other, although some of the
characters and plot lines change, and questions raised in one book
are answered in the other two.  There are also plot/character
crossovers from ILLUMINATUS!  The books also present some amusing
ideas on the biology of human behavior.  A great set of books!
Wilson borrows heavily from Kurt Vonnegut's writing style, and some
from James Joyce's(!).

Masks of the Illuminati

More on the Secret Chiefs, with Albert Einstein, James Joyce, and
Aleister Crowley as main characters.  Magickal training is the main
topic here.

Historical Illuminati Chronicles:

1.  The Earth Will Shake
2.  The Widow's Son

These are RAW's most recent works, and are mostly a rehash themes
brought up in his earlier works, but presented in a new way.  Lots
of discussion of Magickal symbolism in Christianity.

Wilson has also written some quasi-non-fiction:

Cosmic Trigger: The Final Secret of the Illuminati

Discussions of Wilson's various occult and drug experiences, many
with Dr. Timothy Leary (a close friend of his).

Prometheus Rising

In depth discussions of some of the ideas on human behavior brought
up in The Universe Next Door.

Right Where You Are Sitting Now

Discussions on philosophy, the occult, and the human condition.

The Illuminati Papers

Stuff you'd find amusing if you like the rest of Wilson's books.

Wilson also wrote a book in the mid seventies called Sex and Drugs,
but it's been out of print for over 10 years.  I haven't seen it.

Robert Reimann
rmr@olympus.sgi.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 15:48:16 GMT
From: hao!scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Faulkner)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>      Has anybody out there read the ILLUMINATUS! Trilogy (The Eye
> in the Pyramid, The Golden Apple, Leviathan) by Robert Shea and
> Robert Anton Wilson (I think the names and titles are correct, but
> my volume isn't here with me so I

Yes, it is a great book.  Too bad they had to cut the size down
though, I would love reading the other eight appendices.

>     Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
> authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
> book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
> about them and how good they are?

Bob Wilson has currently written two volumes of the Historical
Illuminatus Chronicles, published by Bluejay Books.  Volume 1 is The
Earth Will Shake, which follows the life of Sigusmundo Celine
(Hagbard's Great-great-great- grandfather) in the 1750's.  It starts
out very slowly with an almost surrealistic assasination of Siggy's
father, and from then on it is a real rollercoaster ride as Siggy
starts down his path to illumination.

Volume 2 is called The Widow's Son, and once again follows Siggy's
life with much of his time spent in the Bastille.  This book also
has major sections about some of the minor characters introduced in
Volume 1.  In this volume, Bob Wilson tries to emulate a research
book by massivly footnoting things, which contain almost a separate
story in themselves.  At times it does get ridiculous reading a 2-3
page "footnote".

Volume 3 is due out fairly soon, but I can't remember its title,
however it is supposed to cover Siggy's voyage to the new land in
about 1774.  (Gee, I wonder if he will cover the American
revolution?)

Overall, I really enjoyed these books.  They are not as disjointed
as Illuminatus! was, but they are very solid and still play with
your mind.  I would highly recommed them.

If you really liked the disjointed/cut-up style of Illuminatus!, try
finding copies of the Schrodingers (sp?) Cat series.  They are
really extreme, since it hardly matters what order you read them in.
Another must for any Wilson junkie.

Bill Faulkner
National Center for Atmospheric Research
PO Box 3000
Boulder, CO  80307-3000
303-497-1259
UUCP:  faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP
       ..!hao!scdpyr!faulkner
INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu
ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 14:53:10 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ILLUMINATUS!

From:   <otten@cincom.umd.edu>  (Neil A. Ottenstein)
>     Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
> authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
> book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
> about them and how good they are?

Robert Reimann already listed the other Illuminati books by Robert
Anton Wilson. He did miss one, though: THE SEX MAGICIANS (Sheffield
House, 1973). This is an hysterically funny hardcore porno novel
that's almost impossible to find (and expensive if you ever do).
Certain scenes in the book take place in ancient Atlantis, with two
characters name Luv-Kerapht and Klarkash-Ton (for those who aren't
privy to this bit of trivia, these were the nicknames that Lovecraft
and Clark Ashton Smith called each other). It's a great book if you
ever want to know how to do the Mongolian Cluster Fuck. My favorite
scene is of Markoff Chaney (you remember him --- the "Mgt") being
gainfully employed by an oversexed woman who likes to have him dress
up in a Teddy Snowcrop suit and lick orange juice out of her
privates.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #321
Date:  9 Jul 87 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #321
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 87 0947-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #321
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 321

Today's Topics:

        Books - David & Decamp (3 msgs) & Gunn & Harrison &
                Heinlein & Holdstock & Lee & LeGuin & Lem &
                Lovecraft & MacGregor (2 msgs) &
                Vernor Vinge (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 15:33:33 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: KNIGHT LIFE by Peter David

                     KNIGHT LIFE by Peter David
                             Ace, 1987
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

   Arthur's been sleeping for 1500 years and now he returns--to New
York City?!  Why he's in New York rather than Britain is not
entirely explained, though it probably has something to do with
Morgan Le Fey being there.  How he manages to cope with modern city
life is more the point of the story anyway.

   This book presumes that Arthur is under some stricture never to
lie, even a "little white lie," so a lot of the suspense is
supposedly based on how he answers people's questions without lying
or getting thrown into Bellevue.  The battle between the forces of
good and evil becomes a side- plot to whether Arthur will be elected
mayor of New York.  It's a fun frivolous read, but on closer
examination the picture of benevolent dictatorship that Arthur seems
to be building up toward may worry the more literal-minded of the
audience.  Though I enjoyed it while I was reading it, I can't
recommend it as anything more than a time-filler.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 18:18:44 GMT
From: seismo!hadron!inco!mack (Dave Mack)
Subject: Re: Book Request

kin@cunixc (Kin-Fai Wong) writes:
> was mentioned a book by the name of THE MATHEMATICS OF MAGIC. If
> anyone know which book I am talking about, please post a reply.
> Thanks in advance.

"The Mathematics of Magic" and two other novelettes set in the same
milieu were published under the title _The Incompleat Enchanter_ by
DeCamp, perhaps with Fletcher Pratt as coauthor.

I've only seen this in hardback. Fairly humorous.

Dave Mack
McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc.
8201 Greensboro Drive
McLean, VA 22102
(703)883-3911
...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 23:05:48 GMT
From: smith@COS.COM (Steve Smith)
Subject: Re: Book Request

kin@cunixc.UUCP (Kin-Fai Wong) writes:
>Many years ago, I read a fantasy book in which a mild mannered man
>discovered how to use magic in the "real" world by application of
>mathematics. ...

The book is "The Complete Enchanter" by L. Sprague de Camp.  It
contains three stories, "The Roaring Trumpet", "The Mathematics of
Magic", and "Castle of Iron".

There are a couple of other stories in the same "universe".  The
only one I remember right offhand is "Wall of Serpents".

They're good reads.  Hysterically funny in places.

Steve
smith@cos

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 17:37:39 GMT
From: seismo!ubc-vision!fornax!zeke@RUTGERS.EDU (Zeke Hoskin)
Subject: Re: Book Request(Compleat Enchanter)

> Many years ago, I read a fantasy book in which a mild mannered man
> discovered how to use magic in the "real" world by application of
> mathematics. I would like to locate this book but have forgotten
> the title.

Probably L Sprague de Camp:The Incompleat Enchanter, a package of 3
shorter books in which Harold Shea et al discover rules of magic.
Other books I like dealing with a beginner discovering etc:
  Fritz Leiber:Conjure Wife
  Christopher Stasheff:Her Majesty's Wizard
  Piers Anthony:the Adept series(Split Infinity/Blue Adept/
       Juxtaposition)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 04:08:50 GMT
From: kin@cunixc (Kin-Fai Wong)
Subject: Re: The Mathematics of Magic

Apparently, there is a book titled *The Mathematics of Magic*
written by James Gunn (thanks to dzoey@umds.umd.edu). I remembered
it as a very good book and the style is similar to the Lord Darcy
novels by Randall Garrett.  A must read for those who enjoyed The
Incomplete Enchanter as I did.

Kin

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 17:59:17 GMT
From: steiner@rutgers.edu (Dave Steiner)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

> "A SSR is Born" is the last SSR book to be published (last period,
> according to Harrison);

Well, it looks like he was mistaken.  According to the June LOCUS,
Bantam/Spectra will be publishing _The Stainless Steel Rat Gets
Drafted_ in hardcover in October.

ds
arpa: Steiner@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU
uucp: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!steiner

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 17:33:15 GMT
From: petsd!cjh (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

gouvea@huma1.UUCP (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
>I am not a Heinlein fanatic, but I will say this for the man: he
>has, with each book in recent times, taken risks, attempted
>something he had not done before, stretched himself out.  In most
>cases, the attempts have been failures.  But I would rather see
>this than the mindless repetition of the same old tricks learned 30
>years ago that we get from other "Golden Age" writers.

This is curious.  I agree that RAH's recent books are mostly
failures.  But for almost perfectly opposite reasons.

Take risks?  My problem with TNOTB and TCWWTW is that with a
humongous number of universes going on, and interacting haphazardly,
anything at all can happen.  Nothing has to be coherent.  No plot
lines have to be untangled, tied up, or otherwise made sense of.
And in fact, they aren't.  That isn't risk taking, it's risk
evasion.  It is not stretched, but slack.

And as for repetition of 30-year-old tricks... if you are familiar
with what RAH wrote *40* years ago, you will recognize a *lot* of
tricks, plot devices, etc. from _Gulf_ and _Revolt in 2100_ being
recycled in _Friday_.  Heinlein's repetitiousness is not limited to
trotting out old characters.

And yet, in some respects, Heinlein is just as professional a writer
as ever.  He can still sling a lean, mean sentence.  His books are
page-turners, almost every one of them.  At the end, you may think,
"What bullshit!"  But you will read it all the way to the end.

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:    ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
         106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:   (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jul 87 12:09 PDT
From: MORGAN%FM1%sc.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: recommendation

>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science
>fiction?  I feel as if I've read every fantasy book that's worth
>reading.

A GREAT personal favorite is MYTHAGO WOOD by Robert Holdstock.
Should appeal to those interested in folklore and mythology.  The
story is set in this world and this century and the "other world" of
the wood rests on very imaginative use of the idea of the collective
unconscious.

Morgan Mussell

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jul 87 09:22:16 EDT
From: Dave Allen <davea@ll-vlsi.arpa>
Subject: Tanith Lee pointer?

I have seen Tanith Lee books all over but have never read one.
Which of her works are particularly recommended for a first exposure
to her?  Which ones should definitely be given a miss?

Dave Allen
davea@LL-VLSI.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 13:29:20 GMT
From: craig@think.com (Craig Stanfill)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations?

If you are interested in fantasy, I would strongly recommend _A
Wizard of Earthsea_ by Ursula LeGuin and the other two books in the
Earthsea trilogy.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 08:06:52 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!jiml@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Laycock)
Subject: Lem's _Cyberiad_

I just finished reading Stanislaw Lem's _Cyberiad_ (in English) and
found it to be a remarkable feat of translation, the original being
in Polish.  Has anyone read the original, and does it compare
favourably with the English copy?  What form do the original stories
take?  Could someone provide me with a LITERAL translation of "How
the World was Saved" or any of the other stories that seem
unavoidably English language-dependent?  For instance, I am
completely at a loss as to how the following might have appeared in
Polish:

  "Have it compose a poem--a poem about a haircut!  But lofty,
noble, tragic, timeless, full of love, treachery, retribution, quiet
heroism in the fact of certain doom!  Six lines, cleverly rhymed,
and every word beginning with the letter s!!"
   [two paragraphs omitted]
  Seduced, shaggy Samson snored.
  She scissored short.  Sorely shorn,
  Soon shackled slave, Samson sighed,
  Silently scheming,
  Sightlessly seeking
  Some savage, spectacular suicide.
    [from The First Sally(A)]

Similarly, the poem entitled "Love and Tensor Algebra" must have
taken a great deal of effort, not of translation, but of creative
writing on the part of Michael Kandel, the "translator".  Has anyone
heard of original works of science fiction by Kandel, and are they
too worth reading?

Sorry for all the questions--the translation was so delightful--I
can only imagine how the original must have been.

Jim Laycock
Philosophy grad
University of Alberta
alberta!Jim_Laycock@UQV-MTS
decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!alberta!cavell!jiml

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 17:44:33 GMT
From: johne@athena.tek.com (John F. Ewing Jr.)
Subject: Re: H.P. Lovecraft

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>>> There are occasional extensive postings of Lovecraft/Cthuloid
>>> bibliographies on the net. I don't know who compiled the last one.
>>
>> I've got one that's sort of complete.  If there's interest, I'll
>> neaten it up and post it.
>
>Well, *I'd* like to see it. Even a "sort of complete" Mythos
>bibliography is a major undertaking.

Here is a bibliography compiled by Lovecraft himself.  Maybe someone
could add to this and either email to me or re-post it on the net.
I got this in the back of "The Tomb" which is a collection of some
early and obscure writings by Lovecraft.

The only one that I have included (that was not in that
bibliography) is "The-Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath".  I am saying
that this piece of prose was written 1925-6 because, in the
introduction (written by Lin Carter), it states that "[This] short
novel (it is only 38,000 words) was written, for the most part,
during 1926" and that in December of that year, Lovecraft wrote to
August Derleth describing Dream Quest; so the novel must have been
started in 1925.

This introduction also mentions the names of Lord Dunsany (who
influenced Lovecraft's writing) & George MacDonald (who predated
Lovecraft), who wrote stories similar to Lovecraft.

H. P. Lovecraft:

1917:   Dagon
1917:   The Tomb
1918:   Polaris
1918:   Beyond the Wall of Sleep
1919:   The Doom That Came to Sarnath
1919:   The Statement of Randolph Carter
1919:   The White Ship
1920:   Arthur Jermyn (The White Ape)
1920:   The Cats of Ulthar
1920:   Celephais
1920:   From Beyond
1920:   The Picture in the House
1920:   The Temple
1920:   The Terrible Old Man
1920:   The Tree
1921:   The Moon-Bog
1921:   The Music of Erich Zann
1921:   The Nameless City
1921:   The Other Gods
1921:   The Outsider
1921:   The Quest of Iranon
1921-2: Herbert West: Reanimator
1922:   The Hound
1922:   Hypnos
1922:   The Lurking Fear
1923:   The Festival
1923:   The Rats in the Walls
1923:   The Unnamable
1924:   Imprisoned with the Pharaohs
1924:   The Shunned House
1925:   He
1925:   The Horror at Red Hook
1925:   In the Vault
1925-6: The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
1926:   The Call of Cthulhu
1926:   Cool Air
1926:   Pickman's Model
1926:   The Silver Key
1926:   The Strange-High House in the Mist
1927:   The Colour out of Space
1927-8: The Case of Charles Dexter Ward
1928:   The Dunwich Horror
1930:   The Whisperer in Darkness
1931:   The Shadow over Innsmouth
1931:   At the Mountains of Madness
1932:   The Dreams in the Witch-House
1932:   Through the Gates of the Silver Key
1933:   The Thing on the Doorstep
1934:   The Shadow out of Time
1935:   In the Walls of Eryx
1935:   The Haunter of the Dark
1937:   The Evil Clergyman

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 15:07:51 GMT
From: ames!atari!dyer@RUTGERS.EDU (Landon Dyer)
Subject: Re: THE NET by Loren J. MacGregor

>      THE NET, on the other hand, is basically a heist novel.
>  ... But it said "special" on the cover--and it wasn't.

I cannot dis-recommend this book too highly.  I bought it, read it,
and now I use it to kill spiders in my bathroom.  Glad it was of
SOME use.

Landon Dyer
Atari Corporation
{sun,amdcad,lll-lcc,imagen}!atari!dyer

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 06:16:31 GMT
From: seismo!sun!news@RUTGERS.EDU (news)
Subject: Re: THE NET by Loren J. MacGregor

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>     THE NET, on the other hand, is basically a heist novel.  Had
>it been marketed as a straight science fiction novel, it would have
>received luke-warm reviews.  As an "Ace Science Fiction Special,"
>it may get more negative reviews than it should simply because of
>the raised expectations people have of that series.  Perhaps I'm
>being too hard on it myself.  But it said "special" on the
>cover--and it wasn't.

Just to be contrary, I enjoyed The Net thoroughly, and I disagree
with Evelyn about it being "just" space opera or a heist novel --
there are some very convincing and strong characterizations here she
seems to be completely ignoring.  It completely belongs in the Ace
Special Series -- it IS special.  One thing Carr did was find the
books that were different, and this book is very different from
Green Eyes or Neuromancer.  Not better, not worse, but different,
and shows another facet of SF in a new light.

As a side note, I talked to Loren at Westercon last weekend, and Ace
is going to decide this week whether or not to go back for a second
printing -- and it looks like they will.  This implies that, since
the book hasn't been out that long, it is selling rather well.  Now,
if we can only get the second Smeds book moved forward.....

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed 8 Jul 87 12:51:33-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: _True Names_ by Vernor Vinge
To: CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU

Buy it. Read it. It's a great book. I just happened to see it at the
Coop yesterday, and I bought it on the basis of the recommendations
from sf-lovers. I went home and read it straight through. (I admit,
it was a short book.)

_True Names_ is a lot like _Neuromancer_ in that most of the action
in both books takes place in a conceptual "cyberspace," but the
presentation of the environment and people's dealings with it is a
lot more realistic.  Admittedly, it doesn't cover the big
philosophical themes nearly as well as _Neuromancer_ does, and
Vinge's writing style much less flashy than Gibson's, but _True
Names_ is more believable and more fantastic at the same time.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 14:01:40 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Marooned in RealTime by Vinge

I finally got to read it.

Personally, I think this is the best book I've read in a few years.
Easily rated ****+, maybe even *****.  The technological speculation
is fascinating, and handled well, so it doesn't become a space
opera, or a ridiculous mish-mash (even if you disagree with it, as I
do).  And anybody who can read the scenes detailing the diary left
by the person marooned, or the interview with Tunc Blumenthal and
remain unmoved has all the empathy of a stone.

Read it.  I think you'll like it.

PS: Even the cover is pretty well done, showing one of the high-tech
probes observing the Peacer bobble floating on a sea of magma.
Nice.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #322
Date:  9 Jul 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #322
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 87 0953-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #322
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 322

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: TUESDAY 06/23/87 13:28:27 PST
From: 7GMADISO <7GMADISO@POMONA>

After reading some comments posted here recently about the Animated
Star Trek series, I had to respond.  As far as I'm concerned, AST is
REAL Star Trek, as much so as the first 3 seasons.  D.C. Fontana was
story editor, and wrote some of the episodes.  All of the original
cast was involved in one way or another (Walter Koenig wrote the
script for "The Infinite Vulcan.").  Let us not forget that AST
provided some information that has become "common" among ST fans,
the best-known example of which is the name of Spock's home town on
Vulcan, ShiKahr, which comes from the episode "Yesteryear."  The
only real problem with the series (aside from atrocious animation)
was the fact that it was a mere 22 minutes long (have to leave time
for the commercials, remmeber?).  I find episodes like "Yesteryear"
"Slaver Weapon" "Albatross" and "Jihad" to be far better than such
3rd season turkeys as "And The Children Shall Lead" or "Spock's
Brain."

To answer the question about Uhura taking the conn in "The Lorelei
Signal," (written by Margaret Arman) she takes command of her own
initiative, due to "Chief Engineering Officer Scott's euphoric state
of mind."  She accepts full responsibility for her actions, and
names Nurse Chapel as acting Chief Medical Officer, and a female
officer in charge of Engineering.  She also orders Security Officer
Davison to place an all-female guard on all transporters.

George Madison
BITNET: 7gmadiso@pomona
UUCP:   psuvax1!pomona.bitnet!7gmadiso
ARPA:   7gmadiso%pomona@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 15:17:29 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>>That in no logical situation, with trained landing teams
>>available, would Kirk and other command officers beam down to a
>>planet to gather info
>
>Star Trek is based to a great extent on C.S. Forester's Horatio
>Hornblower stories.  Hornblower did often lead shore parties, so
>Kirk does.

But Hornblower would leave a bitterly disappointed 1st officer
behind in command of the ship.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 87 15:56:26 GMT
From: howard@pioneer.arpa (Lauri Howard)
Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>>Kirk's job should have been to stay on his ship, receive reports,
>>and make dispassionate decisions. Similarly with the other senior
>>personnel, with the possible exception of Spock.
[some stuff deleted]
>Now, my theory is that just prior to the first ST episode, a meteor
>struck the brigde while the Exec, the CNO and the CCO was on it.
>Unable to get replacements, Kirk had Spock assume the duties of the
>Exec and allowed Sulu and Uhura to carry on af department heads.
>
>Of course, this still does not explain Kirk's gallivanting about...

Maybe he (Kirk) was hit in the head by part of the meteor and
suffered a complete personality change which was so much better than
his wimpy "I'm-stayin'-on-the-bridge-beam-up-if-you-have-problems"
old personality that a conspiracy of silence formed among the Big
E's crew, especially among the redshirts who were really, really
being killed off in droves before Jim took their place in the
landing party.

Or, maybe he (Kirk) adhered to what will have become an old adage,
"meteors always strike twice in the same place" and so developed a
superstitious fear of being on the bridge too long.

Or, maybe he (Kirk) was flagrantly violating regulations but doing
such a damn fine job that no one called him on it.

Anyway, those are my theories.

Lauri Howard
howard@ames-pioneer.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jun 87 09:15:13 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

paradis@encore.UUCP (Jim Paradis) writes:
>Uh, transwarp "EXPERIMENT"??  If Transwarp was an experiment, then
>why did Starfleet go to the trouble and expense of building it into
>their biggest ship ever?  You'd think they'd try it out in less
>expensive circumstances first!  Or is it one of those things that
>works fine in small engines but doesn't scale up too well?

From what I understand, that's exactly (at least in part) why the
Excelsior is so big.  Transwarp is a prototype drive, as of STIII &
STIV.  They had to build the ship around the engine.  I'm sure that
after 78 years, they will have been able to perfect it and scale it
down, so that in ST:TNG they will have the new drive in all ships
(how ELSE can you explain the radical change in what warp factor
speeds are? :-}).

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 87 12:48:13 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Officers in Star Trek

Actually, if I remember THE MAKING OF STAR TREK correctly, it said
that all crewmen on the Enterprise are officers, since they are all
astronauts.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 87 13:01:48 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: STRANGERS FROM THE SKY

I won't do a full review here, but will give away cover-blurb-type
stuff.

STRANGERS is an account of Earth's first contact with Vulcan.  The
problem is, it takes place 19.785 years before the official first
contact.  Vulcans came to a xenophobic Earth only a few years away
from Khan's war and encountered a typical military reaction.  The
first half is the book-within- book format of THE FINAL REFLECTION,
but we return to the "real" world several times.  The "real" world
is set before Spock's death, while he is the captain of the
Enterprise.  The second half takes place before "Where No Man Has
Gone Before." Kelso, Mitchell, and Dehner figure prominently in the
story.

At the end of the book is an ad for Diane Duane's next ST story, THE
ROMULAN WAY.  It's due out August first.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 14:58:24 GMT
From: seismo!scgvaxd!trwrb!mnw@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael N. Washington)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

The five bridge personnel (Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, Spock, and Checkov)
were originally set up for command of the Enterprise in the event of
death or inability of the Captain to command the ship.  Of course
Spock is second in command, but I forget the order.  Checkov is
definitely last since he is the junior officer.  Uhura was suppose
to command when Scotty, Spock and Kirk were off of the bridge along
with Sulu.  However, the TV execs vetoed the idea strongly.  Thus,
Uhura was never left in command of the Big E in the TV series.
Uhura did seize control in one if the antimated episodes.  One of
the reasons Scotty is given command of the Big E is he has been on
the ship for quite some time.  He has the rank and in the real world
of TV, he is a man.

Originally (in the pilot [The Cage]), Number 1 was second in command
and as everyone knows, that was Majel Barrett (Nurse Chapel).  The
networks could not stomach a female being in command of such a
powerful ship.  That is one of the reasons Gene Roddenberry had to
redo the pilot episode.  Otherwise, ST as we know it today may not
have ever been a reality.  Also as everyone knows, the producers
was able to fold the pilot into a two episode (the only one) yarn,
The Menagerie.

The male/female battle was also addressed in Intruder Turnabout
where Janice Lester stole Kirk's body (it was on last night here in
LA).  Some day maybe humans will grow up and not have male/female
problems at work!

Michael N. Washington
TRW E&DS  Redondo Beach, Ca.  90278
trwrb!mnw

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 14:35:06 GMT
From: sam@bu-cs.bu.edu (Shelli Meyers)
Subject: Re: Star Trek -- Ensigns and Crewmen

todd@uhccux.UUCP writes:
>I seem to recall that Roddenberry once wrote that "since all
>Enterprise crewmen are 'astronauts', all of them must be officers."
>
>Not sure where I read it.  Might have been in "The Making of Star
>Trek" published in the late 60s or early 70s...todd

Well, this can't be, because chiefs and yeomans are enlisted, and
Angela (Martine?  She was in two episodes with two last names) was a
Technician (or something similar) 2/C (2nd class).  That seems to
indicate the presence of non-commissioned personnel...

Shelli Meyers

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 00:45:26 GMT
From: malloy@crash.cts.com (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM (David Guntner) writes:
>Transwarp is a prototype drive, as of STIII & STIV.  They had to
>build the ship around the engine.  I'm sure that after 78 years,
>they will have been able to perfect it and scale it down, so that
>in ST:TNG they will have the new drive in all ships (how ELSE can
>you explain the radical change in what warp factor speeds are?
>:-}).

I recently got a look at "Scotty's Guide to the Enterprise" (or
whatever the specific title is), and it describes some features of
the new Enterprise (NCC-1701/A). Apparently, the new Enterprise was
originally intended to be NCC-1798, but was rechristened after the
Humpback Incident. The new ship is described as being fitted with
FTWG-1 transwarp engines. Apparently, the Excelsior is to be the
only ship of its class. The book describes (and borrows from the
Star Trek Roleplaying Game) how the Excelsior warp engines were
produced by a competitor of the corporation that produced the
transwarp engines fitted to the Enterprise II -- Starfleet liked the
design, which fitted the warp engines into nacelles externally
identical to the Enterprise's warp nacelles (which explains why the
Enterprise II looked the same, and lets them play with the speed and
power of the new engines.

The interior of the ship is going to be changed only in minor,
cosmetic ways. The bridge layout changed a little -- internal
security no longer is controlled by the panel between the turbolift
doors -- and the appearance of the control panels has changed.
Again. All controls and displays are computer-generated on the
panels, which appear as featureless black surfaces when not in
operation.

Sean Malloy
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!malloy
ARPA: crash!malloy@nosc
Naval Personnel Research and Development Center
San Diego, CA 92152-6800

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 15:51:29 GMT
From: rjg@nis.nis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

malloy@crash.CTS.COM (Sean Malloy) writes:
>I recently got a look at "Scotty's Guide to the Enterprise" (or
>whatever the specific title is), and it describes some features of
>the new Enterprise (NCC-1701/A). Apparently, the new Enterprise was
>originally intended to be NCC-1798, but was rechristened after the
>Humpback Incident. The new ship is described as being fitted with
>FTWG-1 transwarp engines. Apparently, the Excelsior is to be the
>only ship of its class. The book describes (and borrows from the
>Star Trek Roleplaying Game) how the Excelsior warp engines were
>produced by a competitor of the corporation that produced the
>transwarp engines fitted to the Enterprise II -- Starfleet liked
>the design, which fitted the warp engines into nacelles externally
>identical to the Enterprise's warp nacelles (which explains why the
>Enterprise II looked the same, and lets them play with the speed
>and power of the new engines.

I've also got a look at this book, and while I don't want to go on a
negative comment binge, and since there are other people on the net
who are much more experts on the various topics than I am (you know
who you are!  :-) I'd say be a little careful about the information
contained in that book.  The book contains pages after pages of
various errors, and also contains many pages without errors.
Details and drawings are not completely correct, and many items that
are described as design fact (such as the meaning of circle and oval
pins on the left sleeve, for example (as I am told)) are simply not
at all correct, but are fabricated explanations for the sake of
explanations.  The definitive answer on transwarp will not come from
this book (and don't take it as such), but will come from the movie.
Also, there have been 'official' comments from persons directly
invoved with at least The Next Generation, stating that there is no
Transwarp, because "It doesn't work."  (That doesn't preclude 1701-A
from trying it, though).

Little research first, if it's so important to know the true facts.
If all you want is to speculate and wonder "what if", then you can
use whatever sources you want, of course.

I can't provide many examples from the book, but if there is
interest, I'm sure some of the online Trexperts can provide much
better info than I can.  Enjoy.

Robert J. Granvin
Programmer/Analyst
Technical Services
National Information Systems, Inc.
rjg@NIS.MN.ORG
ihnp4!meccts!nis!rjg
(612) 894-9494

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 87 10:20:58 GMT
From: mauhk@daisy.warwick.ac.uk (Andreas Pagel)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

In the latest discussion about chain of command in Star Fleet,
various people have talked about someone being "given the con".  I
had always assumed that Kirk gave someone the 'comm' or 'com', that
being short for 'command'.  What exactly does 'con' or 'conn' mean?

Andreas Pagel
UUCP:   ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!mauhk
JANET:  mauhk@uk.ac.warwick.daisy
ARPA:   mauhk%daisy.warwick.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk
University of Warwick
Coventry
Great Britain

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 87 03:42:58 GMT
From: malloy@crash.cts.com (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Trivia

mauhk@daisy.warwick.ac.uk (Andreas Pagel) writes:
>In the latest discussion about chain of command in Star Fleet,
>various people have talked about someone being "given the con".  I
>had always assumed that Kirk gave someone the 'comm' or 'com', that
>being short for 'command'.  What exactly does 'con' or 'conn' mean?

In naval jargon, the person who is currently in command on the
bridge of a ship is said to be 'conning' the vessel. This is where
the designation of the sail of a submarine as the 'conning tower'
comes from. Someone who is conning a vessel is said to be at or to
have the conn.

Sean Malloy
{hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!malloy
ARPA: crash!malloy@nosc
Naval Personnel Research and Development Center
San Diego, CA 92152-6800

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 01:25:08 GMT
From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Star Trek novels

mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693) writes:
> I agree that there are some very good Star Trek novels out there,
> especially _The Wounded Sky_ and _Black Fire_,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. There are excellent Star Trek
novels out there, but _Black Fire_ is *not* one of them. The
characterizations were trite and simply stupid, and the "science,"
particularly the astronomy, was ridiculous even by Star Trek's
standards.

(While I do not have direct quotations to back up my allegations at
hand, I will as soon as I get home tonight. If you want chapter and
verse, I'll give them to you.)

Karen Williams

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #323
Date:  9 Jul 87 1010-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #323
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jul 87 1010-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #323
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 323

Today's Topics:

         Books - Polikarpus & Scliar & Stapeldon (2 msgs) &
                 Wells & Illuminatus &
                 Recommendations (2 msgs) &
                 Wetware (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 15:34:18 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: DOWN TOWN by Polikarpus & King

           DOWN TOWN by Viido Polikarpus and Tappan King
                             Tor, 1987
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I suppose the cover quote ("...a book that today's readers will
pass along to their children in 20 years time.") should have alerted
me to expect what used to be called a "juvenile" novel and is now
called a "young adult" novel.  Cary Newman's parents are getting a
divorce.  So he and his mother move back to the city.  (His father
very conveniently also moves back to the city.)  Cary runs off one
afternoon and finds himself "Down Town"--not the downtown towards
the Battery, but the "Down Town" underneath New York.  Well, not
really underneath, though Cary gets there through a subway station.

     "Down Town" is a parallel city, though not an alternate
universe in the usual sense.  Apparently all that is lost or
abandoned in "Up Town" ends up in Down Town, including people.  The
places in Down Town have "clever" names: Time Square, Broad Way, the
Antiquarium.  It's all a fairly average rite-of-passage novel which
won't mean as much to people who are unfamiliar with New York.  The
ending is far too pat; in fact, the whole interconnection of the
plotlines is contrived.  The illustrations would be interesting if
they could be appreciated; unfortunately, they seem to have been
drawn with a larger format in mind and a mass-market paperback does
not do them justice.  Perhaps the adolescents of today do need more
modern fables than they can find in the pastoral writings of years
ago.  But this is too grounded in one city to have appeal to the
rest of the country, let alone the world.  I can't see a
twelve-year-old in Peoria getting much out of all the references;
the setting of (say) THE HOBBIT would serve the purpose as well.  A
curiosity, but recommended only for New Yorkers and then only as a
curiosity piece.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 21:13:29 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: CENTAUR IN THE GARDEN by Moacyr Scliar

             THE CENTAUR IN THE GARDEN by Moacyr Scliar
                  Translated by Margaret A. Neves
                       Available Press, 1984
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     There are several things that will get me interested in a book.
Jewish fantasy is one.  A Latin American author is another.  A
remaindered fantasy is a third.  (Okay, so I'm cheap!)  So a
remaindered novel by a Latin American author about a Jewish centaur
is a sure bet to be picked up by me.

     Unlike most of the Latin American authors I have read, Scliar
is Brazilian; hence his works first appeared in Portuguese and his
literary roots are not planted in quite the same soil as the great
Spanish-speaking South American fantasists (Borges, Garcia Marquez,
etc.)  Perhaps because of this, or perhaps for some other reason,
THE CENTAUR IN THE GARDEN is more realistic than the works of most
of the other well-known fantasists of that continent.

     Told in a combination of first person and first person speaking
in third person, THE CENTAUR IN THE GARDEN tells of the life of
Guedali, born of Jewish parents who immigrated to South America from
Russia.  Guedali is doubly an outcast--in addition to his
Jewishness, he is a centaur.  This presents some problems from the
very beginning (most mohels are not experienced in dealing with
centaurs), and he spends much of his childhood hidden from the
outside world.  Eventually he must make his own way in the world,
seek love, try for acceptance.

     The story is told quite straightforwardly.  There is no
explanation of why Guedali is a centaur; he just is.  Much of what
is magical in this book is not explained, and in that regard it *is*
similar to the other authors I have mentioned.  It may be a Hispanic
trait to accept the mystical more readily than other cultures do.
Certainly the Catholicism of Iberia and Latin America tends more
toward the mystical than that of other regions, and though Scliar is
Jewish, he was educated in part in a Catholic school.  For those who
want a literate view of the outsider from a different perspective
than one usually sees, this book is definitely recommended.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  7 Jul 87  15:17:37 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: "Last And First Men and Starmaker" by Olaf Stapeldon

One of the books my English class was assigned to read was Starmaker
by Olaf Stapeldon. The professor had warned us that the style was
difficult to understand and dragged on a lot. When I started reading
the book I could not put it down! It was written back around 1935 or
so when many people were beginning to feel that another world war
was inevitable.  Last And First Men dealt with civilizations of man
rising and falling for millions of years. A theme used again and
again was that every time a civilization reached a high point of
peace, prosperity, and social order it was deciamted, either by
foreign attack, internal strife, or most commonly, disease. I found
Last And First Men fit the professor's opinion well. In fact, had I
read it first, I probably would not have bothered reading Starmaker,
which I consider to be a masterwork. In Starmaker we meet a human in
Earth's present time (1930's) who learns astral projection,
traveling psycically to other planets. This may be one of the
earliest books to propose space travel, stellar evolution, alien
enviornments, and universal entropy death, and planet engineering. I
wouldn't be suprised if everything in modern sf had been based on
ideas in Starmaker.  On our human's travels, he discovers what he
calls "Other Earth", a planet with humaniod beings similar to us
socially but with different senses. While out sight and hearing is
acute, the Other Earthlings have highly developed taste and smell
receptors all over their bodies. Our human makes mental contact with
one of the Other Earthlings who allows him to share his mind. Thus
our human perceives Other Earth as a human would and as a native
does. The Other Earthling decides to join our human on his travels
throughout the galaxy. They encounter worlds where starfish,
dolphins, crabs, trees, and insects have developed intelligence,
some of these aliens decide to join our travellers while others stay
on their native planets. Later in the book even stars and nebulae
are shockingly discovered to be sentient beings, although this
causes much trouble at first. In Starmaker the theme of high
achievement followed by destruction is also frequently used. All
through the book our travellers ponder the existence of the
omnipotent being, whom they refer to as the Starmaker, whom we would
call God.  At the end of the story when the Universe is dying from
entropy our human in one glimpse sees the Starmaker as a being who
regards each successive Universe (==>Big Bang==>Big Crunch==>Big
Bang==>Big Crunch==>) as experimentss, each one an improvement on
the last "model". After the brief glimpse of cosmic understanding,
our human wakes up on a hill on 1930's Earth after a few hours
sleep.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jul 87 13:06:30 EDT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: Animals in SF

  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.  I
can't think of a whole lot of them and of the ones I can think of
the only one showing a great deal of intelligence was "Sirius" by
Stapledon ( I think Stapledon was a pompous, anti-semitic ____ but
this book was well thought out). Anyway, anybody know of others

Jerry Freedman,Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 13:39 -0800
From: Jacob Reichbart <jacob%noah.arc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: HGWells

Nice to hear about someone else reading work by the venerable father
of science fiction.  Have you managed to read
  Shape of Things to Come
  Man who could work Miracles
  Brynhild, or the show of things
  The History of Mr. Polly
  The World of William Clissold

I could go on... I managed to locate lots of out of print books at
the Newbury Library when I was a student in Chicago.  Keep your eyes
peeled in used book as well because most folks don't know what
they've got on the shelves.

There is a Wells scholar at IIT in Chicago, Leon Stover.  I did a
grad seminar with him years ago and it was unforgettable.

I'd like to hear more about your enjoyment of Wells' work.  Did you
know that he wrote everything longhand and didn't proof read the
material ?  He had a young messenger take the chapters, as he wrote
them, directly to the publisher for typesetting.

If Wells has captured your interest you might also like to have a
look at Mervyn Peake's "Gormenghast" Trilogy: "Gormenghast", "Titus
Groan", and "Titus Alone".  As well, Wyndham Lewis will curl your
socks, see another trilogy: "Childermas", "Monstre Gai", and Malign
Fiesta.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 19:06:00 GMT
From: husc6!necntc!frog!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John Woods, Software)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
>      Has anybody out there read the ILLUMINATUS! Trilogy ...by
> Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson ...?
> It really is quite interesting how we are told all sorts of things
> at different times and then "learn" that they are wrong and
> something else is correct.  Any thoughts on it?

I liked this aspect also.  When I reread the book the second and
third time, I picked up a few more details each time (though not too
many, and they didn't alter the interpretation any...I guess it
won't qualify for "Great Literature" (OH NO!  NOT THAT FIRESTORM
AGAIN!  ARRRHGHGHG!) :-).

>     Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
> authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
> book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
> about them and how good they are?

I don't know about both of them.  Wilson has also written "Masks of
the Illuminati" (which I haven't seen), "The Illuminati Papers"
(which I have, and which looks much like a collection of outtakes),
and "The Earth Will Shake", which bills itself as "The Historical
Illuminatus Chronicles I".  Wilson also has several other books out
of the same general flavor but without the focus on the Illuminati
(e.g. The Schroedinger's Cat trilogy).

The Illuminati Papers was entertaining to read once (pico-review:
borrow it).  The Earth Will Shake is (so far) somewhat more
interesting (it is, so far, (I think) tracing Hagbard Celine's
family tree, and possibly simultaneously the trees of several other
key Illuminatus! Trilogy players).  I don't know about Masks of the
Illuminati.

I liked the first book of the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy (which I
have); I glanced through the second book and thought it seemed to be
much the same story put through a blender; I glanced at the first
few and last few pages of the third book and concluded (1) it was
also much the same story (with a surprise ending), and (2) the
writing style was "cute" (bleah!).  Your mileage will almost
certainly vary.

John Woods
Charles River Data Systems
Framingham MA
(617) 626-1101
...!decvax!frog!john
...!mit-eddie!jfw
jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 16:00:08 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations?

KIMMEL@ecs.umass.edu writes:
>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science
>fiction?  I feel as if I've read every fantasy book that's worth
>reading.  I've already read the Belgariad, Lord of the Rings, most
>stuff by Piers Anthony, the Stainless Steel Rat series, and the
>Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  Can anyone recommend something
>new for me to read?  Fantasy is preferred, but I'll read Science
>Fiction in a pinch.

I would recommend Jack Vance.  He is a nice cross between Fantasy
and SF.  Start with the Dying Earth series if you like fantasy.
Those liking SF more could start with the Tchai series.  His writing
is very beautiful and he is marvelously witty.  He is a little fast
and loose though.

Gene Wolfe is another marvelous writer who resembles Vance in some
ways but is actually a better writer, I think.  The Book of the New
Sun is his best multi-volume work, starting with Shadow of the
Torturer.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 19:21:48 GMT
From: sri-unix!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations?

From: Matt Kimmel <KIMMEL%ecs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science
>fiction?  I feel Can anyone recommend something new for me to read?
>Fantasy is preferred, but I'll read Science Fiction in a pinch.

   I recommend Marion Zimmer Bradley. There are something like 20
books about the planet Darkover, plus some other books by her that
tend to be a bit more science than fantasy.

   Also, try the Thieves World books edited by Robert Asprin.  There
are 9 of tem, plus 3 Thieves World novels that were written by Janet
Morris.  If you like humor, try the Myth books (Another Fine Myth,
Mythconceptions, Hit or Myth, etc.) by Robert Asprin.

   Then try the Pern novels by Anne McCaffrey. There are 8 to date.
Her Crystal Singer novels are also good, but they are more on the
science side.

   And of course, there is Andre Norton.  She has about 60 or 70
novels out, about split between fantasy and sf.  Some of them are
more directed at juveniles, but I have enjoyed all of them.

   I'm not a very critical person when it comes to reading.  I read
to enjoy, and I won't take apart a book for it's message, or the
author's political beliefs or lifestyle.  You'll probably get
various reviews on all of the above books, and you can sort them
according to your personal criteria for good reading.  Me, I liked
them all, and still have all of the above mentioned series and
authors in my library.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 15:52:26 GMT
From: shaffer@operations.dccs.upenn.edu (Earl Shaffer)
Subject: Wetware

I saw a review for a book recently which refered to "wetware".  This
is the "injection" of programming into people.  Does anyone know
what book this is?  What about the concept?

Earl Shaffer
University of Pennsylvania
Data Communications Department

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 21:04:37 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: Wetware

shaffer@operations.dccs.upenn.edu.UUCP (Earl Shaffer) writes:
>I saw a review for a book recently which refered to "wetware".
>This is the "injection" of programming into people.  Does anyone
>know what book this is?  What about the concept?

One recent such is _Vacuum Flowers_ by Michael Swanwick.  People
could take on roles, occupations, and/or personalities by getting
new 'wetware'.  The process itself was mostly glossed over (was it
semi-surgical?) People in some societies wore facial paint to
indicate their programming.

There may be other books which include this concept; this is the
only one I know about.

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #324
Date: 13 Jul 87 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #324
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jul 87 0935-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #324
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 324

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anvil & Boyett (3 msgs) & Bujold &
                     DeCamp (3 msgs) & Harrison (2 msgs) &
                     Key & LeGuin & Lem (2 msgs) &
                     Stapledon & Wells & Book Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 87 11:17:09 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Chris Anvil

Does anyone have pointers to any of Christopher Anvil's work?  I
just read _The King's Legions_ in Asimov's SF series titled _Tin
Stars_ and loved it.  Did he write more stories in this setting?

_The King's Legion_ is a Space Patrol story wherein the ship is the
star.  It ends up recruiting the guys who own the ship into the
Space Patrol. Pretty funny light adventure.

pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 07:41:58 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF (S. R. Boyett)

>Also a recent novel, first in a series, about an alternate world
>where the intelligent species are raccoons.  Very good, but I can't
>come up with the book's title or the author's name.  (Stephen
>Goldin??)

Another discussion thread gave me the name - Stephen R. Boyett.  And
just now, I remembered the title - "The Architect of Sleep".  Good
book.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 16:35:36 GMT
From: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF <Stephen R. Boyett, The Architect of Sleep>

farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes:
> Also a recent novel, first in a series, about an alternate world
> where the intelligent species are raccoons.  Very good, but I
> can't come up with the book's title or the author's name.
> (Stephen Goldin??)

   The book is "The Architect of Sleep" by Stephen R. Boyett.  It
left me with the feeling that is was more like the first half of a
large novel, than volume 1 of a series, but nothing shows up on/in
the book indicating more forthcoming.  Anybody out there know
anything?

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 87 07:25:42 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF <Stephen R. Boyett, The Architect of Sleep>

kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Kathryn Smith) writes:
>The book is "The Architect of Sleep" by Stephen R. Boyett.  It left
>me with the feeling that is was more like the first half of a large
>novel, than volume 1 of a series, but nothing shows up on/in the
>book indicating more forthcoming.  Anybody out there know anything?

From what I hear, Boyett has stated that there are at least three
more books in the series.  Haven't heard when the next one is
supposed to be coming out.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 17:53:38 GMT
From: ahh@s.cc.purdue.edu (Brent L. Woods)
Subject: Re: Female author

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:

>Well, I haven't read any really excellent fantasy lately (which
>might have something to do with the fact that I can't get to the sf
>section of the bookstore without pausing at the mystery section -
>oh no, what's HAPPENING to me?!...), but I would like to suggest
>some sf novels by Lois McMaster Bujold.  She's one of the really
>exciting new (relatively speaking, as always) talents in the genre.
>The three

   I agree with your opinion completely.

>books available are WARRIOR'S APPRENTICE, ETHAN OF ATHOS (my
>personal favourite), and one that goes in the middle with a title
>that's slipped my mind (surprise, surprise).  All three are set in
>the

     I think you mean _Shards_of_Honor_.  The book doesn't come in
the middle, though.  It is set approximately twenty years before
_Warrior's Apprentice_, and involves the parents of the protagonist
of _Warrior's Apprentice_.

>same universe, within one generation (of humans, at any rate), but
>each can be read as an individual novel.

     True.  They are more an interconnected series of books, rather
than a novel with sequels.  They have a ring of truth to them since
the plans of the characters seldom "survive contact with the enemy."
This makes the events in the books rather unpredictable.  The
settings are interesting, too, especially that of _Ethan_of_Athos_.
That one has a new and different idea (at least to me) of a
planetary society.

Brent Woods
USENET:  {seismo,decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!pur-ee!s.cc.purdue.edu!ahh
         {seismo,decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!pur-ee!el.ecn.purdue.edu!woodsb
BITNET:   PODUM@PURCCVM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 22:40:18 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J
From: Brennan)
Subject: Re: Book Request

kin@cunixc.UUCP (Kin-Fai Wong) writes:
>Many years ago, I read a fantasy book in which a mild mannered man
>discovered how to use magic in the "real" world by application of
>mathematics. I would like to locate this book but have forgotten
>the title.  I believe that the plot involved the standard rescuing
>of a virgin from dastardly evil villians. Somewhere in the book (or
>maybe on an inner cover) was mentioned a book by the name of THE
>MATHEMATICS OF MAGIC. If anyone knows which book I am talking about,
>please post a reply. Thanks in advance.

   The description sounds entirely too much like the Harold Shea
stories by L. Sprague DeCamp and Fletcher Pratt.  There were five in
all, I recall, one of them being something like "The Mathematics of
Magic" . . .

   The first two stories (novellas) can be found in _The Incompleat
Enchanter_, the first THREE stories can be found in _The Compleat
Enchanter_, and the last two can be found in _Wall of Serpents_
(which I've never found, myself . . .).

   There is an appendix or afterword in _The Compleat Enchanter_
which details some of the actual publishing history of the stories
and describes the late Fletcher Pratt.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 23:21:40 GMT
From: mhnadel@gryphon.cts.com (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: Book Request

kin@cunixc.UUCP (Kin-Fai Wong) writes:
>Many years ago, I read a fantasy book in which a mild mannered man
>discovered how to use magic in the "real" world by application of
>mathematics. I would like to locate this book but have forgotten
>the title.  I believe that the plot involved the standard rescuing
>of a virgin from dastardly evil villians. Somewhere in the book (or
>maybe on an inner cover) was mentioned a book by the name of THE
>MATHEMATICS OF MAGIC. If anyone knows which book I am talking about,
>please post a reply. Thanks in advance.

You are referring to a book called _The Mathematics of Magic_ which
was part of a series by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt.
These were later collected into one volume titled _The Compleat
Enchanter_.  The magical worlds explored included Norse mythology,
The Faerie Queen, Xanadu and Orlando Furioso.  The basic premise of
the series was that magic is just the physics of another world.
BTW, deCamp and Pratt also wrote several othere fantasy books with
different premises of which one of my favorites is _Tales from
Gavagan's Bar_.

Miriam Nadel
INTERNET: mhnadel@gryphon.CTS.COM
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!mhnadel
UUCP: {philabs, trwrb}!cadovax!gryphon!mhnadel

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 17:40:04 GMT
From: dand@tekigm2.tek.com (Dan Duval)
Subject: Re: Book Request

ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes:
>    The description sounds entirely too much like the Harold Shea
> stories by L. Sprague DeCamp and Fletcher Pratt.  There were five
> in all, I recall, one of them being something like "The
> Mathematics of Magic" . . .
>
>    The first two stories (novellas) can be found in _The
> Incompleat Enchanter_, the first THREE stories can be found in
> _The Compleat Enchanter_, and the last two can be found in _Wall
> of Serpents_ (which I've never found, myself . . .).

There is one other Harold de Shea story, published in "The Dragon"
in the late 70's. That one you may have trouble tracking down.

By the way, if anyone REALLY wants a copy of Wall of Serpents, let
me know, and I'll see if I can dig one up out of Powell's.

Later,

Dan C Duval
ISI Engineering, Tektronix, Inc.
dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM
tektronix!tekigm2!dand

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 14:05:08 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umn-cs!mmm!cipher@RUTGERS.EDU (Andre Guirard)
Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat

steiner@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Dave Steiner) writes:
>> "A SSR is Born" is the last SSR book to be published (last
>> period, according to Harrison);
>...  According to the June LOCUS, Bantam/Spectra will be publishing
>_The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted_ in hardcover in October.

Ah well.  Such is often the way with good intentions.  The writer
says, "No!  No more!  I'm sick of it!  Aaack!  Gag!"  But on seeing
how well that "last" book sells, "We'll see," s/he says to the
publisher, and then, "Well, maybe," then finally, "Oh, all right,
just one more.  But mind you, this is the LAST ONE!"  And it's just
one more and just one more until the series is run into the ground.
All that time the author wasted writing trashy continuations to a
popular series (trashy because the author is tired of it, and who
can write something well that he's unenthusiastic about?) when s/he
could have been exploring new territory.  Sigh.

Andre Guirard
ihnp4!mmm!cipher

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 08:11 EDT
From: Emanuel.henr@Xerox.COM
Subject: What's a Stainless Steel Rat

Just exactly what is a Stainless Steel Rat anyway ?

Keith J. Emanuel
Xerox Corp.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 15:55:52 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: First SF

From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>

> Also one about a boy who fell through an abandoned "door" onto our
> planet. His name was Jon, and he had some telepathy with his home
> peoples, and also could "lighten his feet" to run faster. I think
> the title has something to do with a door (no, not The Door Into
> Summer). Eventually he makes it home...funny how I can remember
> the last line in the book, but can't come up with the title!!

"The Forgotten Door" by Alexander Key -- a wonderful book.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 20:58:23 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations

A Wizard of Earthsea is a very good story about the growth of
undertsanding in a yound wizard and should be highly recommended.
The next book, The Tombs of Atuan, is even better, having to do with
both Ged, the wizard, and a young priestess, who goes through some
rather strange rituals.  The third book, however, the name of which
I cannot even remember, was boring beyond belief.  Skip it if you
can.

John

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 03:58:23 GMT
From: seismo!uunet!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Lem's _Cyberiad_

jiml@alberta.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes:
> I just finished reading Stanislaw Lem's _Cyberiad_ (in English)
> and found it to be a remarkable feat of translation, the original
> being in Polish.

The question of how exactly that was done has been puzzling me for a
*long* time! Not only the poetry, but all the technical and
scientific puns (eg the thermocouples on the dance floor),
alliteration, and pseudo-sf names for robots and planets.

For those of you without the book, portions of "Love and Tensor
Algebra" appear in the fortune database. "Come let us tread the
faery fields of Venn...".

The "S" poem is always good for a bit of spontaneous composition: "I
think I'll write a poem about a haircut!"; and I've always wondered
how the "G" poem would have finished ("Now all in G! Trochaic
hexameter, about an old cyclotron who kept 16 artificial mistresses,
blue and radioactive...").

A definite must-read for lovers of finely-scripted narrative. I'd
give __Cyberiad_ 5/5 stars, and _Mortal Engines_ (the only other Lem
robot saga I've read) 3/5.

John

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1987 20:11:07 PDT
Subject: LEM's CYBERIAD translator
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>

From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!jiml@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Laycock)
> I just finished reading Stanislaw Lem's _Cyberiad_ (in English)
> and found it to be a remarkable feat of translation, the original
> being in Polish.

Hear, hear!  In addition to the verses Jim cited (using alliteration
in translation as one exceptional feat) I found that the entire text
was studded with puns...that translator came up with a remarkable
book.  I'm faced with wondering how much was Lem's own.

I recall that Lem's work has been translated by many different
people, it was posted sometime in the last two years, but I didn't
pay attention at the time; I hadn't read any of his work!  Could
someone refresh us on the success of the various translators?

Doug
(dolson @ Ada20.isi.edu)

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 08:49:08 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!ncc!ers!neil@RUTGERS.EDU (neil)
Subject: Re: "Last And First Men and Starmaker" by Olaf Stapledon

Any mention of Stapledon should include his most accessible work,
Sirius.  Something like the Plague Dogs by Adams but far better
written and far more thought provoking. A mon avis, an excellent
book, recommended.

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  9 Jul 87  15:45:50 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Re: H.G. Wells

From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
>Yes! I'm a fan of Wells' novels and stories, and would be keen to
>discuss why.  One reason, probably, is that he can write well;
>another is that he doesn't just present the SF concepts cold - his
>characters slowly discover them (except for The Sleeper Wakes,
>which is atypical in many ways)

Me too! I first read War Of The Worlds after we did a "speaking"
play of it in 5th grade. I have read all of his novels except for In
The Days Of The Comet and about 20 short stories. I love Wells's
writing because most of his ideas, like Jules Verne, were pretty
much original.  But most of all, Wells went to great lengths to try
and explain the workings of the inventions and phenomena in his
books. Nowadays we see "hyperdrive" and "time travel" and "brain
transplants" and the like used all the time with at most a
half-assed explanation, or we are just meant to accept it without
question.

andy
P.S. Any Jules Verne or Olaf Stapledon fans out there?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 18:01 +0800
From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Book Request

Sometime ago, I picked up a paperback at the book store, titled
_Ariel_, I believe.  I can't remember the author's name, but the
basic story line was as follows: Present day earth undergoes some
sort of cataclysmic change which alters the physical laws of
science.  Suddenly mageic works, and mythological creatures come out
of the woodwork.  The principal characters are a young man and a
unicorn called Ariel.  They do battle with evil minions and *MINOR
SPOILER* the story has, what I felt to be, a sad ending.  I
thoroughly enjoyed the book and I was wondering if anyone could tell
me who the author is (I gave the book to someone, and I can't locate
it now..)  and if he has written anything else.

Natalie

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #325
Date: 13 Jul 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #325
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jul 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #325
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 325

Today's Topics:

             Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Lee (4 msgs) &
                     Cover Art (3 msgs) & A Request &
                     An Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 17:33:15 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

gouvea@huma1.UUCP (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
>I am not a Heinlein fanatic, but I will say this for the man: he
>has, with each book in recent times, taken risks, attempted
>something he had not done before, stretched himself out.  In most
>cases, the attempts have been failures.  But I would rather see
>this than the mindless repetition of the same old tricks learned 30
>years ago that we get from other "Golden Age" writers.

This is curious.  I agree that RAH's recent books are mostly
failures.  But for almost perfectly opposite reasons.

Take risks?  My problem with TNOTB and TCWWTW is that with a
humongous number of universes going on, and interacting haphazardly,
anything at all can happen.  Nothing has to be coherent.  No plot
lines have to be untangled, tied up, or otherwise made sense of.
And in fact, they aren't.  That isn't risk taking, it's risk
evasion.  It is not stretched, but slack.

And as for repetition of 30-year-old tricks... if you are familiar
with what RAH wrote *40* years ago, you will recognize a *lot* of
tricks, plot devices, etc. from _Gulf_ and _Revolt in 2100_ being
recycled in _Friday_.  Heinlein's repetitiousness is not limited to
trotting out old characters.

And yet, in some respects, Heinlein is just as professional a writer
as ever.  He can still sling a lean, mean sentence.  His books are
page-turners, almost every one of them.  At the end, you may think,
"What bullshit!"  But you will read it all the way to the end.

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:  ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail: MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
         106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:  (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 15:11:14 GMT
From: gouvea@huma1.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

cjh@petsd.UUCP (C. J. Henrich) writes:
>gouvea@huma1.UUCP (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
>>I am not a Heinlein fanatic, but I will say this for the man: he
>>has, with each book in recent times, taken risks, attempted
>>something he had not done before, stretched himself out.
>This is curious.  I agree that RAH's recent books are mostly
>failures.  But for almost perfectly opposite reasons.
>
>Take risks?  My problem with TNOTB and TCWWTW is that with a
>humongous number of universes going on, and interacting
>haphazardly, anything at all can happen.  Nothing has to be
>coherent.  No plot lines have to be untangled, tied up, or
>otherwise made sense of.  And in fact, they aren't.  That isn't
>risk taking, it's risk evasion.  It is not stretched, but slack.

In some sense, I'm we're both talking about the same thing, but
reacting differently to it.  To my mind, making the attempt to write
a novel that consciously violates all the requirements of plot
consistency and resolution that are usual in sf *is* taking a pretty
big risk.  TCWWTW is certainly such: given his theme of multi-person
solipsism, there's really no reason to resolve the plot, which is,
after all, just the whim of some writer out there.  I don't think
that comes across clearly enough (it's even less clear in the
conclusion of TNOTB), but I do think it's a conscious decision on
Heinlein's part.

>And as for repetition of 30-year-old tricks... if you are familiar
>with what RAH wrote *40* years ago, you will recognize a *lot* of
>tricks, plot devices, etc. from _Gulf_ and _Revolt in 2100_ being
>recycled in _Friday_.  Heinlein's repetitiousness is not limited to
>trotting out old characters.

I should have explicitly excluded *Friday*; that's so much a
throwback to old Heinlein that I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least
drafted in the 40's.  It's ironic, in a way, that it was the most
well-received of the recent novels...  Maybe what we want is
repetition, the same confortable old tricks, a strong plot.  Given
how well some writers sell, it seems plausible that the sf audience
expects "the usual" from its favorites, and many of them seem
content to supply it.

Fernando Q. Gouvea
Department of Mathematics
1 Oxford Street
Cambridge, MA  02138
gouvea@huma1.harvard.EDU
gouvea%huma1@harvard.ARPA
gouvea@harvma1.BITNET
...!harvard!huma1!gouvea

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 87 01:31:31 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
> I should have explicitly excluded *Friday*; that's so much a
> throwback to old Heinlein that I'd be surprised if it wasn't at
> least drafted in the 40's.  It's ironic, in a way, that it was the
> most well-received of the recent novels...  Maybe what we want is
> repetition, the same confortable old tricks, a strong plot.  Given
> how well some writers sell, it seems plausible that the sf
> audience expects "the usual" from its favorites, and many of them
> seem content to supply it.

If "the usual" is good writing, yeah, I expect it!  Heck, do you
want a weak plot?

The "multi-person solipsism" that Heinlein has taken to is neat,
might be a good subject for a short story, but it make life too easy
for the characters in the story.  In fact, there no longer needs to
be a rational explanation for what happens, it happens because the
Author wills it.  Since the Author can be one of the characters,
what they want can and will happen.  No challenge, no conflict (at
least not a realistic one) which is what I was taught is the basis
of all plots.

The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, taken in small chunks considered
separately, has some good Heinlein in it.  In fact, it probably
could have been two or three good books if he'd developed any of the
small plots better.  For example, the Golden Rule sequence started
the book off well.  However, he copped out of a potentially good
plot with the man who keeled over at the dinner table by just
dropping the subject, then explaining it away with a handwave at the
end of the book.

I hope this bad writing of Heinlein's has just been due to arrogance
and not senility.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!sdamos,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 04:05:12 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!ncc!ers!neil@RUTGERS.EDU (neil)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
> In some sense, I'm we're both talking about the same thing, but
> reacting differently to it.  To my mind, making the attempt to
> write a novel that consciously violates all the requirements of
> plot consistency and resolution that are usual in sf *is* taking a
> pretty big risk.  TCWWTW is certainly such: given his theme of
> multi-person solipsism, there's really no reason to resolve the
> plot, which is, after all, just the whim of some writer out there.
> I don't think that comes across clearly enough (it's even less
> clear in the conclusion of TNOTB), but I do think it's a conscious
> decision on Heinlein's part.

Well I don't think it's a conscious decision, or if it is, I suggest
it's more motivated by laziness and monetary reward. Since The Cat
begins with a very definite plot why does it degenerate? If we have
this solipsism, why does it not start at the beginning, rather than
half way through.  What is he trying to say? And how does this way
of saying it enhance the message/experience? What are we meant to
feel, see and how does this enrich us?

In short, if you think it is a matter of conscious technique, prove
it!

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 87 08:22 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Tanith Lee pointer?
Cc: Dave Allen <davea@ll-vlsi.arpa>

I have not read many Tanith Lee books, mainly because I so disliked
most of the ones I tried.  However, The Silver Metal Lover ranks
high on my list of all-time favorite books, so I'd recommend you
read that one.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1987  00:18 EDT (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: Dave Allen <davea%ll-vlsi@eddie.mit.edu>
Subject: Tanith Lee pointer?

   My favorite Tanith Lee books are her Tales of the Flat Earth:
1. Night's Master
2. Death's Master
3. Delusion's Master
4. Delirium's Mistress
5. Night's Sorceries (not as good as the others, but not bad if you
enjoyed the first four).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 87 09:59 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: Re: Tanith Lee pointer?

I would start with _Night's Master_, the first book in the Flat
Earth series.  If you like it there are four more in that series to
read; if you don't (and I can see where a lot of people might not)
you can skip to something else.  If you can't find _Night's Master_
I think it's ok to start the series with _Death's Master_ (I did and
didn't get confused).  _Sung in Shadow_ is also a very good read,
but it isn't part of a series, and none of her other stuff (except
perhaps _Red as Blood_, a collection of short stories) comes from
the same "universe".  _Red as Blood_ is also very good.  _Drinking
Sapphire Wine_ and _The Birthgrave_ are also series-starters (DSW is
future fiction, Birthgrave is fantasy).

Mary Malmros
MANAGER@SMITH.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 05:40:00 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Tanith Lee pointer?

Really Good Tanith Lee:

Novels:
Drinking Sapphire Wine (and the other book with the same characters)
The Silver Metal Lover
Day By Night
Sabella

Collections:
Red As Blood (Grimm's fairy tales retold)

Haven't read much of the Flat Earth series yet, so I can't comment
on that. *The Birthgrave* was Lee's big splash into the field, but I
didn't like it that much. Part of that was because it's billed as
science fiction but reads like fantasy most of the way through.

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 02:31:58 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms (bms)
Subject: Re: Rowena cover art

Though I get tired of sf/fantasy being advertised by naked
"barbariennes" on covers, that's not actually what I most dislike
about Rowena'a art.  Her paint style is garish and full of glossy
lighting, her people seem to be either too muscular or starving
themselves, and her backgrounds are often just plain dull.  I may be
exaggerating, but I'm not about to go looking for one of her covers
to find out.

They're TACKY.

Becky

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 11:49:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: SF COVERS

   I just noticed an interesting pair of letters in the July Locus
which tells a bit more about what goes on the covers of books.  One
person writes in complaining that one of the authors in a book
wasn't listed on the cover. Susan Allison, the editor-in-chief of
Berkley Publishing, writes in reply that this matter was "dealt with
very specifically in the contract for the book".  She ends her reply
saying "you are certainly correct that the placement of author names
is a marketing decision, as is the case with just about every aspect
of a book's cover."  It is those marketing decisions which most
likely contribute to "glitches" in the art on the cover of books
which many people have been talking about lately.

Neil A. Ottenstein
Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
Bitnet:  OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 01:27:20 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Rowena cover art

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>Though I get tired of sf/fantasy being advertised by naked
>"barbariennes" on covers, that's not actually what I most dislike
>about Rowena'a art.  Her paint style is garish and full of glossy
>lighting, her people seem to be either too muscular or starving
>themselves, and her backgrounds are often just plain dull.  I may
>be exagerrating, but I'm not about to go looking for one of her
>covers to find out.
>
>They're TACKY.

  I like Rowena's cover art.  It's always interesting to read the
criticism.  Some people criticize her for being too realistic.
Others for being too phoney.

  Let's see.  The cricitism for having "Barbariennes" on covers.
Well, go count them.  There haven't been that many and the books
with girls on the covers were generally protraying the books pretty
much as they wee written.  If you didn't like the books, well, ok.

     That more than anything else is what I like about Rowena
covers.  Despite the distinctive style (it's really not as much like
Boris' as people think) she does an creditable job of portraying the
story.  She has a problem in that her pictures are a tad static
(she's not really that good at portraying action).  I've always felt
that the cover artist should attract attention and convey what the
book is about.  Rowena does both to the hilt.

     My favorite two Rowena covers are the first 2 books of the
Apprentice Adept series.  Both covers show her strong and weak
points very well.  Stile is short and she succeeds in making him
look short.  He's well built, but that's true to the book as well.
So's the Red Adept.  You don't like it?  Like I said, read the book.
Anthony certainly never said Red was a dog.  Now look at the Stile
with Naysa.  Pretty static for even the prelude of a fight isn't it?

     The silliest thing I ever read was someone saying that Rowena
used too many colors in skin tones.  As a photographer I can assure
you that most of her covers I could pretty much duplicate as far as
that's concerned.  Most people don't really "see" what's around
them.  The human mind notices only that which is relevant to it.
You miss more than you realize.  You have to make an effort to stop
and see things like a split instance when cross lighting paints
someones face red on one side and blue on another.  Some people
really do have naturally rosy cheeks.  Yes, it's all around you.
And then there's makeup.  People really do wear it.  Honest.  I see
it all the time.  Really.  :-)

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive,
Toronto
(416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Jul 87 09:58:34 GMT
From: "michael j. hammel" <EAMIK%TTUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #320

I haven't been keeping up very much on the vast array of new writers
in Science Fiction. I think this is mainly due to the fact that most
of what I see is more related to fantasy than what I consider Sci-Fi
(not that what I see is a representative sample of the whole).  What
I was wondering is if there are any writers out there who seem to
follow the same style as Arthur C. Clarke.  The story lines he
follows always seem to intrigue me, to the point of
attempting(though usually failing) to read the entire book in one
sitting. I've read a few others that seemed to do this to me as
well. Pat Frank's Alas Babylon was one. I think what it is I'm
looking for is something which is not necessarily to far out,
something that seems a realistic possibility (it should be noted
that Aliens also fit into this category).  Anyone have any ideas for
me. Really would appreciate it.

Michael J. Hammel
SNHAM @ TTUVM1

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 17:33:14 GMT
From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
Subject: Re: Book Request

From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
> Sometime ago, I picked up a paperback at the book store, titled
> _Ariel_, I believe.  I can't remember the author's name, but the
> basic story line was

Stephen R Boyett

> and if he has written anything else.

This is something I too have been on the lookout for.  Ever since
reading "Ariel", I have made a point of looking for new stories from
him.  Alas, I have yet to see any.

Joanne Brooks
U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr
Consulting Staff
BITNET: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET
Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #326
Date: 13 Jul 87 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #326
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jul 87 1036-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #326
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 326

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Animals in SF (10 msgs) &
                         Wetware (5 msgs) & Female Authors &
                         Review Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 16:46:33 GMT
From: chavey@speedy.wisc.edu (Darrah Chavey)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>   Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
> I can't think of a whole lot of them and of the ones I can think
> of the only one showing a great deal of intelligence was "Sirius"
> by Stapledon ( I think Stapledon was a pompous, anti-semitic ____
> but this book was well thought out). Anyway, anybody know of
> others

The Island of Dr. Moreau (sp?); H.G. Wells.
    The good doctor surgically enhances the intelligence of various
    animals.
(The something), the Miners, and the Shree; author?
    The Shree, an intelligent bird-like race, help protect a
    scientist on the run from the miners who are stripping the
    planet of its resources.
The Spell Sword (and others); Marion Zimmer Bradley
    The heroes fight an intelligent race of Cat People.
Title Requested
    I remember reading a book that actually pulled off a believable
    inter- species romance; but I can't remember its title.  An
    engineer goes to a planet that has been battling a race of
    moderately intelligent cat people for a long time.  His job is
    to build a dam (which will probably wipe out the cat peoples
    lair).  In the initial blasting, a female cat creature is
    injured; and he tries to nurse it back to health.  The locals
    get rather pissed at him for not just killing it.  After much
    more development, the locals force him into exile; the female
    cat seduces him; he negotiates peace between the races, etc.
    Anyone know this book?

Darrah Chavey
Computer Sciences Department
University of Wisconsin, Madison WI
chavey@cs.wisc.edu
...{ihnp4,seismo,allegra}!uwvax!chavey

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 21:45:22 GMT
From: stuart@rochester.arpa (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

chavey@speedy.WISC.EDU (Darrah Chavey) writes:
> Title Requested
>   I remember reading a book that actually pulled off a believable
>   inter- species romance; but I can't remember its title.  An
>   engineer goes to a planet that has been battling a race of
>   moderately intelligent cat people for a long time.  His job is
>   to build a dam (which will probably wipe out the cat peoples
>   lair).

"Hestia" by C.J. Cherryh

Stu Friedberg
{seismo,allegra}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 87 09:20:05 EDT
From: ambar@BLOOM-BEACON.MIT.EDU (Jean Marie Diaz)
Subject: animals in SF (possible mild spoiler)

One of my favorite SF books is Dogsbody, by Diane Wynne Jones.  It's
about a being (in the celestial sense) who is framed for a crime
(I'm being deliberately vague), and is sentenced to live in a dog's
body here on earth, which makes it difficult for him to prove that
he is being unjustly punished.  The beings that framed him are
trying to kill him, and.... well, read the story.

I've read other books by the author, and they're a worthwhile read,
but nothing else caught my imagination like this one.

ARPA: ambar@bloom-beacon.mit.edu
UUCP:(get smail!): {mit-eddie,husc6,garp,bu-cs}!bloom-beacon!ambar

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 04:21:14 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
>   Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
> I can't think of a whole lot of them and of the ones I can think
> of the only one showing a great deal of intelligence was "Sirius"
> by Stapledon ( I think Stapledon was a pompous, anti-semitic but
> this book was well thought out). Anyway, anybody know of others

There were those great intelligent otters in the book by James H.
Schmitz where the nasty aliens invade the water world with the
floating islands and the heroine takes them on and wins with the
help of her trusty otters.  Demon Breed?

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 07:37:43 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
>  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
>I can't think of a whole lot of them and of the ones I can think of
>the only one showing a great deal of intelligence was "Sirius" by
>Stapledon ( I think Stapledon was a pompous, anti-semitic but this
>book was well thought out). Anyway, anybody know of others

Kingdom of the Cats (and two sequels) by Phyllis Gottlieb -
excellent stories of intelligent mutant mountain lions.

Ratha's Creature (and sequels) by Claire Bell - more smart cats.

The Orphan (trilogy including The Captive and The Beast) - long
novel about alien beasts who reside temporarily in newly dead human
bodies.  Extremely well done books - I recommend them extremely
highly.  A must read, although now out of print.  (Oh, yes - by
Robert Stallman).

Also a recent novel, first in a series, about an alternate world
where the intelligent species are raccoons.  Very good, but I can't
come up with the book's title or the author's name.  (Stephen
Goldin??)

Add a multitude of short stories, of which Space-Time for Springers
and Man's Best Friend come immediately to mind.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 87 19:45:21 GMT
From: olegovna@math.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
>  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
>anybody know of others?

Lot's of stuff by Andre Norton: her human characters often work
closely with animals and/or have a telepathic rapport with them.
Things that come to mind immediately are _The Zero Stone_,
_Catseye_, and the more recent _Flight in Yiktor_. There are others,
but it's been awhile since I've read them and I don't remember the
titles clearly.

Tamara Petroff
olegovna@MATH.UCLA.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 87 02:54:39 GMT
From: dspvax!mit-caf!hamilton@RUTGERS.EDU (David P. Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
>  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
>I can't think of a whole lot of them and of the ones I can think of
>the only one showing a great deal of intelligence was "Sirius" by
>Stapledon ( I think Stapledon was a pompous, anti-semitic but this
>book was well thought out). Anyway, anybody know of others

Two stories from _Again,_Dangerous_Visions_ come to mind.  Piers
Anthony wrote "In the Barn," dealing with a "farm hand" assigned to
parallel Earth where the livestock are modified (read, brainless and
atavistic) humans.  The second was by Chad Oliver (I think) and was
called "Mother Earth" (perhaps).  While it was perhaps more of a
pessimistic ecological disaster/end of the world story, it does
touch on the subject of which species a wealthy man chooses to save.

Of course, there are also David Brin's novels _Startide_Rising_ and
_The_Uplift _War_, which each contain "uplifted" animals as
characters (dolphins in SR, chimpanzees in TUW).

David P. Hamilton
hamilton@caf.mit.edu
...!mit-eddie!mit-amt!mit-caf!hamilton

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 87 16:04:13 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

What about Cordwainer Smith's animal people, like C'Mell and others,
in his short stories?

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 1987 20:37:44 PDT
Subject: Re: Animals in SF
From: Douglas M. Olson <dolson@ADA20.ISI.EDU>
Cc: jfjr@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA

From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
> Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
> [...] Anyway, anybody know of others

Perhaps Andre Norton's _A Breed Apart_ would meet your interest.
Clifford Simak's _City_ is a classic.  And for something rather
different, Derek Bickerton's _King of the Sea_ has its moments,
though the protagonist is human (there's a phenomenal scene where he
is alone in the sea, waiting for a helicopter to pick him up, and a
killer whale starts to toy with him...brrr!)

Doug
dolson @ Ada20.isi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 04:23:29 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!ncc!ers!neil@RUTGERS.EDU (neil)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
> What about Cordwainer Smith's animal people, like C'Mell and
> others, in his short stories?

I got the impression that the original posting was referring to
animals not people. Try

The Year of the Angry Rabbit  ?           Rabbits
The Hephaestus Plague         Page          Cockroaches
Web                           Wyndham       Spiders
The Monkey Planet             Boulle        Humans!
Alien Art                     Dickson       ?    (border line)
You name it                   McCaffrey     Dragons

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 15:45:00 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Re: Wetware

shaffer@operations.dccs.upenn.edu (Earl Shaffer) writes:
>I saw a review for a book recently which refered to "wetware".
>This is the "injection" of programming into people.  Does anyone
>know what book this is?  What about the concept?

    ARRRGGH!  You would ask that question!  I hate it when I can
answer something like this, the information is right on the edge
of my brain, and I can't remember it!!
    Anyway, enough of the ranting and raving.  The book you are
probably refering to is called "Vacuum Flowers" and the author's name
escapes me.  It was a recent SF Book-of-the-Month Club selection.
The "wetware" you talk about is the process of superimposing the
memories and personality of person A (very possibly a recording from
a dead person, although not necessarily) onto person B.
    Hope this helps.

Mark F. Cook
USMail: Software Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 19:20:41 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Cluster (was Re: Wetware)

markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM (Mark F. Cook) writes:
>shaffer@operations.dccs.upenn.edu (Earl Shaffer) writes:
>>I saw a review for a book recently which refered to "wetware".
>>This is the "injection" of programming into people.  Does anyone
>>know what book this is?  What about the concept?
>
>The book you are probably referring to is called "Vacuum Flowers"
>and the author's name escapes me.  It was a recent SF
>Book-of-the-Month Club selection.  The "wetware" you talk about is
>the process of superimposing the memories and personality of person
>A (very possibly a recording from a dead person, although not
>necessarily) onto person B.

While not "wetware" or superimposition of a recording of a
personality, Piers Anthony's Cluster series ("Kirlian Quest" et al)
posits a similar host/guest personality idea as a solution for
travelling astronomic distances and working within biologically
incompatible environments.  In Cluster, the consciousness of a
person is transmitted across the universe into a host body so that
the agent can operate within the alien culture.  The trasmittability
of a personality is based on the intensity of the guest's Kirlian
Aura and the gender of the host needs to match that of the guest.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
{whatever}!amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 87 11:08:35 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Wetware

For references to Wetware, check out the comic book _Shatter_
wherein our hero has been RNA encoded with the talents of a large
variety of specialists.  Another interesting facet of the book is
that all the art is done on a Macintosh.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 12:26:00 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles@RUTGERS.EDU (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: Wetware

markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM (Mark F. Cook) writes:
>shaffer@operations.dccs.upenn.edu (Earl Shaffer) writes:
>>I saw a review for a book recently which refered to "wetware".
>>This is the "injection" of programming into people.  Does anyone
>>know what book this is?  What about the concept?
>
>... The book you are probably refering to is called "Vacuum
>Flowers" and the authors name escapes me.  The "wetware" you talk
>about is the process of superimposing the memories and personality
>of person A (very possibly a recording from a dead person, although
>not necessarily) onto person B.

An accurate description.  And you have the correct book.  As an
interesting side-light, a recent article in "Science News" mentioned
'wetware' as being the 'programming' that resides in an organic
computer.  (i.e. the brain.)  It was in an article that discussed an
attempt to unravel the 'language' used by the brain to store
information. (pretty sure)

The name follows in the tradition of:
   hardware   - machines.
   firmware   - operating system.
   software   - application programs.
   liquidware - appl. progs. that aren't complete.
   vaporware  - appl. progs. that haven't even been started!

Additionally, in the book, it was possible to edit your own
'wetware' to develop any skills you wished to.  They had a really
neat display of the program as a tree, which you would move
branches, add to, remove from.  You always had to be careful to
check your editing before you used it so that you didn't add any
kinks that would destroy your mind.

Enjoy!

Edwin Wiles
Net Express, Inc.
...!seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles
1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
Vienna, VA 22180

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 13:08:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: WETWARE

IN SF-LOVERS DIGEST #323 Earl Shaffer and Joel B. Levin mention
wetware.  One book which may be featuring this concept is WETWARE by
Rudy Rucker which is his sequel to SOFTWARE which won the P. K. Dick
award a few years back.  I think that this book should be coming out
some time this year if it is not yet out already.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@UMCINCOM - BITNET
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU - ARPANET

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 16:28:08 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Female author

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>HAPPENING to me?!...), but I would like to suggest some sf novels
>by Lois McMaster Bujold.  She's one of the really exciting new
>(relatively speaking, as always) talents in the genre.  The three

I agree too!  And there's good news -- Lois is working on more
novels!

A couple of names that haven't turned up -- Jacqueline Lichtenberg
(The Sime/Gen series, "Molt Brother," and the Daushu (sp?) trilogy)
and Jean Lorrah (The Savage Empire series).

Jean Airey
US Mail: 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87  1:49 +0800
From: Natalie Prowse <nat%drao.nrc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Review request

I have just recently seen an advertisement, in New Scientist, for a
new book by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle -
_The_Legacy_of_Heorot_. Has anyone read this new work?  How about a
synopsis and/or review?  Is it available in Canada and the U.S.? (I
live in a small town, and our book stores -both of them- are
seriously lacking...)

Natalie

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #327
Date: 15 Jul 87 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #327
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jul 87 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #327
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Jul 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 327

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anvil & Boyd & Dick & Lee (2 msgs) &
                    Simak & Stapledon & Tepper (4 msgs) &
                    Tolkien (2 msgs) & Vernor Vinge &
                    Illuminatus (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 87 09:06:34 EDT
From: Robert L. Krawitz <rlk@Think.COM>
To: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Chris Anvil

From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
>Does anyone have pointers to any of Christopher Anvil's work?  I
>just read _The King's Legions_ in Asimov's SF series titled _Tin
>Stars_ and loved it.  Did he write more stories in this setting?

This is the last third of a short novel whose name slips my mind at
the moment.  I read this quite a while ago, and then happened to
come across it in Tin Stars.  The Science/Fantasy bookstore in
Harvard Square doesn't have it (the novel), and I haven't seen
anything else by Anvil.

The novel as a whole seemed more or less complete, although I could
see continuations in the same way that Harrison continued the
Stainless Steel Rat series, but I haven't heard of anything.

Robert Krawitz
rlk@think.com

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 02:40:15 GMT
From: vdsvax.steinmetz!barnett@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce G Barnett)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

What about sex and plants! I'm talking about "The Pollinators of
Eden" by Christopher Boyd (I think). I enjoyed his books. I recall
most of his books had religious overtones. Very strange plots.

What ever happened to the author? He had a slew of books, then
nothing.

Bruce G. Barnett
barnett@ge-crd.ARPA
barnett@steinmetz.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 87 22:52 EST
From: <TCORAM%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (maroC ddoT)
Subject: Phillip K. Dick

I just started reading 'Radio Free Albemuth' by Phillip K. Dick and
was reminded of his 'VALIS' trilogy.  I have read 'VALIS' and
'DIVINE INVASION', but I cannot find 'The Transmigration of Timothy
Archer' in any book stores.

A couple of SF bookstores which normally carry between them 20 PKD
books, never seem to have the book in stock.  Anyone read 'The
Transmigration...' ?  Is it worth seeking out? I found VALIS
difficult, but DIVINE INVASION quite good. Does 'The
Transmigration...' take off where DIVINE INVASION ended or is it
just 'related' to the other two books.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 18:40:09 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Tanith Lee pointer?

I'd recommend almost anything by Tanith Lee.  However, there are a
couple of blockbuster series:

(a) The Birthgrave and Quest for the White Witch

(b) The Storm Lord and Anackire

(I think (a) was split into three, not two, in the US)

(b) has been republished in one volume as The Vis Wars (I think)

These are what is now called 'Heroic Fantasy', meaning fantasy for
the adult reader as well as for kiddies.  Another term is 'Adult
Fantasy', which unfortunately sounded too much like books you take
home in a plain brown wrapper.

I think Tanith Lee has an excellent facility for language, and a wry
sense of humour.  This last is perhaps more obvious in works like
Death's Master, or Drinking Sapphire Wine.  Another good shorter
novel is The Electric Forest, but don't read it first since some of
its effect relies on misdirecting a reader familiar with some of her
other plots.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 87 12:53:05 EDT
From: jw@math.mit.edu
Subject: Tanith Lee pointer
Cc: davea@ll-vlsi.arpa

   I am not a big reader of contemporary fantasy, but I have read at
least half-a-dozen Tanith Lee books, and I really like her style.  I
recommend above all _Drinking_Sapphire_Wine_, which is a good
introduction to her work: it is short, accessible, and
characteristic of Lee's writing. If it goes by too quickly, and it
may well, there is a sequel which is also pretty good,
_Don't_Bite_the_Sun_. The milieu of the two novels is a future
society which might seem a little reminiscent of _Logan's_Run_:
young people are encouraged to dress, act and party to excess, and
are expected to conform to this extreme behaviour and not to have
another thought in their heads.  Needless to say, one of the
characters doesn't quite fit in.....

   I also enjoyed immensely the Flat Earth series, which I read back
when it was a trilogy (_Night's_Master_, _Death's_Master_,
_Delusion's_ Master_). Assuming you like DSW and DBTS, you should
move on to the first of these, and you will probably be hooked on
the series (there are 5 now).

   I remember reading a book which was a rewrite of the Romeo and
Juliet story, which did not even impress me enough for me to
remember the title (was it Sung in Shadow, or is that another book?)
I thought the prose was beautiful (all of Lee's is) and she fleshed
it out with some beautiful imagery, as well as examining both the
political climate and the characters closely. However, while I never
tired of the prose, I rapidly tired of the story, because it is so
familiar, and because I was terrified of what was going to happen at
the ending. My fears were confirmed; I think the ending is a real
copout.

   If I had to give a fantasy book to someone who had never read a
fantasy book, it would probably be Drinking Sapphire Wine or Night's
Master. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

Julian West

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 21:33:10 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Simak's _City_ (was Re: Animals in SF)

Douglas M. Olson writes::
>Clifford Simak's _City_ is a classic.

I've often heard this claim and cannot understand it.  I really
didn't like the book (which was really a collection of short stories
on the same theme).  Can anyone tell me what was so *classic* about
that book?

One of the things I didn't like about it was Simak's use of the
Lamarkian theory of heredity which he knew quite well is false.  I
don't think Simak could understand a scientific theory if it bit him
on the nose.  He should write fantasy.  (Actually, he does write
fantasy, but he pretends that it's science fiction.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 87 23:15:22 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Olaf Stapledon
To: ames!pyramid!ncc!ers!neil@RUTGERS.EDU

Has anyone seen a copy of _Last Men in London_?  I have been looking
for it for years.  I saw a copy at a con, but it was over $600!

I disagree strongly with his politics and philosophy, but boy can he
write!

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 20:08:40 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Sheri Tepper

Just out of curiosity, are there any other Sheri Tepper fans out
there?  She's had 15 books published so far:

   The Revenants
   King's Blood Four
   Necromancer Nine
   Wizard's Eleven
   The Flight of Mavin Manyshaped
   The Search of Mavin Manyshaped
   The Song of Mavin Manyshaped
   Jinian Footseer
   Dervish Daughter
   Jinian Star-eye
   Marianne, the Magus, and the Manticore
   Blood Heritage
   The Bones
   Northshore
   Southshore

   of which I've read all but the last three (and I'll be getting
those soon).  Just curious, as she is currently, one of my favorite
writers.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@tc.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 08:58:43 GMT
From: ames!styx!ohlone!nelson@RUTGERS.EDU (Bron Nelson)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
> Just out of curiosity, are there any other Sheri Tepper fans out
> there?
>
>   King's Blood Four
>   Necromancer Nine
>   Wizard's Eleven
[rest of list deleted]

I read these three and liked them.  I did not think they were all
that great though; not enough thought was given to The True Game
idea - what were the rules?  Why did people ever follow the rules?
Why didn't people break the rules a lot sooner?

Anyway, I did enjoy the books; they are fun to read.  I kept
expecting another book in this same sequence with the obvious title
of "Shadow- master Thirteen" but it never came.

Bron Nelson
{ihnp4, lll-lcc}!ohlone!nelson

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 14:21:49 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper

  Actually, "Shadowmaster Thirteen" would have made an excellent
title for a fourth book about Peter in the True Games books.
  Instead, (*****SPOILER ALERT*****) however, the next three bring
us back twenty years in time to when Mavin was young and eventually
leaves us exactly where we were at the end of "Wizard's Eleven."
The final trilogy deals with (you guessed it) Jinian and the first
book in that series once again leaves us at the seemingly impassable
point in time.  The second and third books finally resolve things
and everything works out, whether it works out happily is definitely
a matter of opinion.  Things change.I still haven't decided myself.
  The last three are by far her best work and the middle three by
far the weakest.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@tc.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 06:57:08 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
[About the True Game series]
>  The last three are by far her best work and the middle three by
>far the weakest.

I have to emphatically disagree.  One of the nicest things about
reading Sherri Tepper's work since the beginning is watching her
progress steadily in her writing ability.  The first three books
were entertaining, the second three somewhat more than that, and I
have to agree that the last three are the best (so far...)

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 04:04:35 GMT
From: mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

mjlarsen@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>> [...] the only words beyond the comprehension os a bright child
>> or teenager are in one of Tolkien's invented languages [Tolkien],
>> or simply aren't there at all [Lewis's Narnia books].
>
> Actually, Tolkien used many words which are not in the vocabulary
> of the average educated adult.  Offhand, I can think of "ghyll,"
> "bollard," and "glede" (the ME spelling for modern "gleed.")

Modern what?  (Even the "modern" form is sufficiently uncommon I've
never heard of it!)

> [...] I would say that Tolkien's Old English orientation
> profoundly affects his diction.  He uses archaisms frequently, but
> as an expert, he uses them right.  Authenticity in such matters is
> palpable even to those who know only modern English.

Exactly.

If someone had asked me about the vocabulary in Tolkien, I would
initially have responded as did Bevan (>> above).  Since he *does*
use uncommon (for today) words, this means he uses them in places
where they fit so well that a modern reader simply does not notice
them.

His choice of names also betrays his expertise in the languages from
which English formed; they all sound correct.  Too many fantasy
books have names which sound as though the author had picked letters
out of a hat or something - Tolkien's invariably ring true.

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 04:02:48 GMT
From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP writes:
>His choice of names also betrays his expertise in the languages
>from which English formed; they all sound correct.  Too many
>fantasy books have names which sound as though the author had
>picked letters out of a hat or something - Tolkien's invariably
>ring true.

Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Christopher Maag
cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
{seismo|ucbvax|harvard|rutgers!ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!cmaag

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 17:24:16 GMT
From: page@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Bob Page)
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime

>Anyway, it's by Vernor Vinge

I assume it's the sequel to _The Peace War_ ?  It was not mentioned
in the original "mini-review" but talk of bobbles and 'the peace'
sort of pointed that way...

Bob Page
U of Lowell CS Dept.
page@ulowell.{uucp,edu,csnet}

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 87 01:01:32 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

john@frog.UUCP (John Woods, Software):
otten@cincom.umd.edu writes:
>>      Has anybody out there read the ILLUMINATUS! Trilogy ...by
>> Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson ...?
>
>Yes!
Here too.  (Some of my friends are surprised by this....)

>>     Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
>> authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
>> book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
>> about them and how good they are?
>
>I don't know about both of them.  Wilson has also written "Masks of
>the Illuminati" (which I haven't seen), "The Illuminati Papers"
>(which I have, and which looks much like a collection of outtakes),
>and "The Earth Will Shake", which bills itself as "The Historical
>Illuminatus Chronicles I".  Wilson also has several other books out
>of the same general flavor but without the focus on the Illuminati
>(e.g. The Schroedinger's Cat trilogy).

Add:

THE WIDOW'S SON (Historical Illuminatus Chronicles II)
COSMIC TRIGGER: THE FINAL SECRET OF THE ILLUMINATI
  (Warning:  I haven't read COSMIC TRIGGER, but I have read
   THE ILLUMINATI PAPERS and if I get the references right then
   TIP has spoilers of CT in it.)

THE ILLUMINATUS PAPERS -- I read it less as out-takes than as
non-fiction based on ILLUMINATUS!, intended to discuss our society.
(After you take a good look at our society, it's no weirder than
ILLUMINATUS!, I'll tell you that!)  Entertaining, but some hints of
"preachy"-ness (not obtrusive, just more obviously non-fiction than
the rest of the book).

>The Earth Will Shake is (so far) somewhat more interesting (it is,
>so far, (I think) tracing Hagbard Celine's family tree, and
>possibly simultaneously the trees of several other key Illuminatus!
>Trilogy players).  I don't know about Masks of the Illuminati.

Not his whole family tree, just Sigismundo and his immediate family.
And the Illuminatus old-boy network (;-}).

>I liked the first book of the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy (which I
>have); I glanced through the second book and thought it seemed to
>be much the same story put through a blender; I glanced at the
>first few and last few pages of the third book and concluded (1) it
>was also much the same story (with a surprise ending), and (2) the
>writing style was "cute" (bleah!).  Your mileage will almost
>certainly vary.

I got halfway through THE TRICK TOP HAT and tossed it; I couldn't
for the life of me find a unifying influence in the book.  If you
want weird, skip SCHRODINGER'S CAT and read something *really* weird
(ILLUMINATUS!, for a big example)....

Brandon S. Allbery
ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 10:05:09 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

With the demise of Bluejay, the publication of "Nature and Nature's
God" has become an if, not a when.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 20:08:40 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Illuminatus

   ILLUMINATUS! is superb.  I've read it between two and three times
(some parts I've read three, most only two) and if you like warped
perspectives, it shouldn't be missed.  It's the fastest, craziest,
most confusing and illuminating 800 pages you'll read in a long
time.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@tc.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #328
Date: 15 Jul 87 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #328
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jul 87 0855-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #328
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Jul 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 328

Today's Topics:

          Films - Lovecraft Movies (5 msgs) & Innerspace &
                  SF Film Quiz Results (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 24 Jun 87 01:06:58-PDT
From: <J.JBRENNER@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Lovecraft and Horror Films

So, if you're talking influences of lovecraft on horror movies, how
about Ghostbusters?  It struck me as being *very* much like a story
Fritz Leiber might write while under the Lovecraft influence.

Joe B.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 87 13:28:36 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Lovecraft//THE THING

From:   inco!mack       (Dave Mack)
> From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Greg Porter)
>> Someone was hoping for movies based on certain Lovecraft stories,
>> including _At the Mountains of Madness_.  I think your best bet
>> is to see the remake of _The Thing_ (John Carpenter)....  While
>> more SF than Mythos, I would suspect Carpenter was inspired by
>> Lovecraft on this one.  It will definitely give you disturbing
>> dreams.
>>    The obvious trivia bit in this movie is that the original
>> movie is showing in the background on one of the TV sets.
>
> No way! Carpenter's _The Thing_ (like the 1958 original) was
> inspired by a novelette by John W. Campbell, Jr. called _Who Goes
> There?_....

Actually, the original film was 1951, not 1958. And by the way, the
original film was *not* "showing in the background on one of the TV
sets". It was very much in the forefront. When the Americans came
back from the destroyed Norwegian camp, they brought with them a
video tape the Norwegians made of the discovery of the saucer. A
short clip of the original film (showing the discovery) was used as
this recording.

> Whether Campbell took his inspiration from Lovecraft is an open
> question, but it seems unlikely. Given Campbell's outlook on life
> and politics, it is more likely to be a commentary on creeping
> Communism (Your neighbors, your friends, even your children could
> be THEM!) As a depiction of paranoia, it's superb.

It's doubtful that it's a "commentary on creeping Communism", since
at the time it was written (the 30's), there wasn't that big a deal
about Communism. Now, Finney's [INVASION OF] THE BODY SNATCHERS (and
the film as well), coming out of the McCarthy Era, was definitely
so.

As I have heard it, Campbell's inspiration for "Who Goes There?"
was something that happened to him in childhood. Apparently, his
mother and aunt were identical twins. Occasionally, when his mother
went on errands, his aunt would babysit him, but pretend to be his
mother. When he found this out, it was rather traumatic for him, and
he couldn't tell afterwards whether his mother was *really* his
mother (one presumes that at some point he was able to tell them
apart).

It's possible that the surface elements of the story were inspired
by "At the Mountains of Madness", since Lovecraft's story first
appeared in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION two years before Campbell's.
On the other hand, those elements are pretty much demanded by the
story. An Antarctic outpost provides a setting that's remote from
civilization (remember, if even *one* cell got back to civilization,
the fat lady would start singing) as well as an environment that the
creature couldn't easily deal with.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian

ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 87 11:59:25 GMT
From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft Movies?????

Anthony A. Datri writes:
>There was a movie called "20,000,000 Years to Earth" or something
>like that (I don't have my book with me) that dealt with Londoners
>finding this buried space ship when they were excavating for a
>subway or something, and it seemed to me to have some similarities
>to a Lovecraft story who's name shamefully eludes me at the moment.
>And of course there are the Night Gallery bits: a

This is a 1967 Hammer release "Quatermass and the Pit", adapted from
a BBC TV series. Film reference books make no mention of Lovecraft
in the credits.  It was released in the USA (where the TV series was
unknown) as `Five million years to Earth'. The last, and most
intellectual of the Quatermass trilogy, has quite spectacular
effects for the climax of the film.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 87 14:47:40 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies

aad+@andrew.cmu.edu (Anthony A. Datri) writes:
>So I'm not the only one who saw a similarity between The Thing and
>At the Mountains of Madness, eh?  It struck me immediately when I
>saw the movie, but I've never seen any formal acknowledgement of
>this.  There is a movie called "Dr. Strange" or such that seems a
>whole lot like Hypnos.  And the mid-70's movie called Yog seemed to
>have some elements of The Colour Out Of Space.  There was a movie
>called "20,000,000 Years to Earth" or something like that (i don't
>have my book with me) that dealt with Londoners finding this buried
>space ship when they were excavating for a subway or something, and
>it seemed to me to have some similarities to a Lovecraft story
>who's name shamefully eludes me at the moment...  And let's not
>forget the wonderful late-60's version of The Dunwich Horror
>starring Stella Stevens

That's a lot of movies!  However, surely 'The Thing' was based on
the story 'Who Goes There', by John W Campbell, who I doubt was
influenced much by Lovecraft.  (By the way, am I the only person who
FAR prefers the original to the remake?).  The London tube movie is
'Quatermass and the Pit' in the original title, and was an original
script (later made into a book by Nigel Kneale, I think), and I
can't recall a similar Lovecraft story, though 'The Shadow out of
Time' has very old ruins in the Australian desert.

There have been several other films loosely based on Lovecraft,
including one called, approximately, 'The Haunted Palace of Edgar
Allan Poe', which I have mercifully forgotten.  There has also been
a movie version of 'Herbert West - Reanimator', a story intended to
be low comedy that didn't quite work.

Yes, The Dunwich Horror is truly a movie of its time, down to the
silly music (drumbeats - "Yog Sothoth!" - more drumbeats) and the
way they wrote the female lead role.  It's always the trendy stuff
that dates fastest.

One problem with making movies out of Lovecraft is that so much of
the effect of the stories is invisible - it happens inside the
narrator as he gradually pieces together the unspeakable truth, goes
mad, dies of Nyarlathotep-bite, or whatever.  Transcribed literally,
The Call of Cthulhu would be incredibly slow; but how else could one
build up the jigsaw puzzle of tiny incidents that makes the climax
terrifying?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 21:56:50 GMT
From: aad+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft movies

>Yogg-Sothoth... That would be _The Dunwich Horror_ (?) with Nick
>Adams?

Nononnono.  The movie was indeed called "Yog".  It wasn't really
patterned after a particular HPL story, but had some of the elements
of The Colour Out Of Space, and the end of the movie was the people
blowing up this Big Octopus-like Thing.  I'm the one who mentioned
The Dunwich Horror in the first place:-)

I have access to a library that has a rare copy of a poem that HPL
wrote -- one of these days I'll write it down and type it in.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 16:00:29 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Re: Innerspace

From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
>...The one thing they did miss was Raquel Welch (how many guys out
>there were willing to help rip those lymphocytes off of her?), ...

    They weren't lymphocytes, they were antibodies.  A lymphocyte
(white blood cell) was what attacked and devoured the Proteus at the
end of the movie.

Mark F. Cook
USMail: Software Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 87 02:12:56 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Results of SF film quote quiz

The winner is

   Alice Ramsay & Tony Kordyban
   AT&T Bell Laboratories
   Naperville, IL

They got a total of 43 points (2 points per title, two per
identification.  One bonus point for catching a misspelling.

(It should be noted that Evelyn Leeper got 66 on the quiz, but then
she has the unfair advantage of knowing me and the films I like.)

 1. Alec McEwen Expedition
      Temporary name of the Lindenbrook Expedition in JOURNEY TO THE
      CENTER OF THE EARTH before Lindenbrook thought better of it.
 2.  Anti-Matter Cannon
      Only weapon that penetrates the shield of the huge and rather
      silly-looking interstellar bird in THE GIANT CLAW.
 3.  Bellerophon
      The first human ship to visit Altair IV in FORBIDDEN PLANET
 4.  Binary Load Lifters
      Tool mentioned in STAR WARS
 5.  Bloodrust
      Amorphous people eating substance from Mars in SPACEMASTER X-7
 6.  Brundlefly
      Half Seth Brundle, half unnamed fly in 1986's THE FLY.  (The
      fly wanted it to be called Flybrundle, but was overruled.  The
      disgruntled fly made plans to go on to be the first insect
      politician.)
 7.  Caprona
      Lost prehistoric island in LAND THAT TIME FORGOT and PEOPLE THAT
      TIME FORGOT
 8.  Cargonite
      Only substance impenetrable to the 4-D MAN
 9.  Cosmostrator
      The title role in FIRST SPACESHIP ON VENUS (based on a
      novel by Stanilaw Lem).
10.  Degenerol
      Monster-making drug in FRANKENSTEIN'S DAUGHTER, a film far
      worse than any of its monsters.
11.  Duocaine
      Monocaine in INVISIBLE MAN was changed without explanation to
      Duocaine for INVISIBLE MAN RETURNS.
12.  Infinitely-Indexed Memory Bank
      Handy little device for storing everything from a human's brain
      in EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS
13.  Interociter
      Amazing communications device and much more (even more in the
      Raymond F. Jones novel) in THIS ISLAND EARTH
14.  Kohlinar
      The discipline of pure logic after a bar-mitzvah-like ceremony
      in STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE.
15.  Markolite
      American invention that combines ray cannon and deflecting
      shield in MYSTERIANS.  These days the Japanese would have it
      first, and it would unfold into a robot.
16.  Metaluna
      Alien planet in THIS ISLAND EARTH or MOON PILOT.  (Apparently
      Disney had problems thinking up original alien planet names.)
17.  Mynocks
      Odd suction-cupped critters in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
18.  Operation Skyhook
      American space program destroyed in EARTH VS. THE FLYING
      SAUCERS
19.  Oxygen Destroyer
      Horrible weapon whose formula is destroyed so it can have only
      one use, to destroy GODZILLA, KING OF THE MONSTERS
20.  Planet Zira
      Alien planet that replaces Earth in its orbit in WHEN WORLDS
      COLLIDE in a shot that could only have been pulled off by the
      Big Minnesota Fats in the Sky.
21.  Portable Reactor
      In retrospect, what Andre Delambre should have been working
      on in THE FLY (1958) (or perhaps the permanant battery).
      Helene Delambre mentions it.
22.  Power X
      Incredible power source, suspiciously similar to nuclear energy
      but looking more like ginger ale in FROM THE EARTH TO THE
      MOON.
23.  Report on a Biological Imbalance in an Upland Arizona Valley
      Very understated beginning-of-the-end for human supremacy on
      Earth.  A report of how ants were banding together against
      common natural enemies in PHASE IV.
24.  Rhodosaurus
      The second dinosaur to walk around in a modern city in a
      science fiction film (can anyone name the film that had the
      first?)  The forerunner of Godzilla was THE BEAST FROM 20,000
      FATHOMS.
25.  Shiraishi Report
      Unfinished report on the planet Mysteroid in MYSTERIANS.  By
      the time Shiraishi got around to finishing it, it was no longer
      news.

Mark Leeper
 ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 19:26:41 GMT
From: miket@brspyr1.brs.com (Mike Trout)
Subject: Re: Results of SF film quote quiz

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>  2.  Anti-Matter Cannon
>        Only weapon that penetrates the shield of the huge and
>        rather silly-looking interstellar bird in THE GIANT CLAW.

INCREDIBLE MOVIE! Don't miss it!  The bird creature was obviously
the inspiration for _Sesame_Street's_ Big Bird.  And it swallowed
1950s airliners in one gulp, too.  Supposedly there's a cut from
_The_Giant_Claw_ in the recent _Sullivan's_Pavillion_.

>  9.  Cosmostrator
>        The title role in FIRST SPACESHIP ON VENUS (based on a
>        novel by Stanilaw Lem).

Is this the 1950s West German movie with Zsa Zsa as Queen of Venus?
Cool-looking spaceship with some semi-original spaceflight effects.

> 15.  Markolite
>       American invention that combines ray cannon and deflecting
>       shield in MYSTERIANS.  These days the Japanese would have it
>       first, and it would unfold into a robot.

WOW!!  I'll never forget that scene!  "Good news!  Good news!  The
Amelicans have just deveroped a weapon that may well turn the tide!"
Remember the World Air Force?  Who could forget this one?

> 24.  Rhodosaurus
>      The second dinosaur to walk around in a modern city in a
>      science fiction film (can anyone name the film that had the
>      first?)  The forerunner of Godzilla was THE BEAST FROM 20,000
>      FATHOMS.

Wild guess--the Danish film _Reptilicus?_

Michael Trout
miket@brspyr1
UUCP:ihnp4!dartvax!brspyr1!miket
BRS Information Technologies
1200 Rt. 7
Latham, N.Y. 12110
(518) 783-1161

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 17:01:35 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Results of SF film quote quiz

miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>>  9.  Cosmostrator
>>        The title role in FIRST SPACESHIP ON VENUS (based on a
>>        novel by Stanilaw Lem).
>
> Is this the 1950s West German movie with Zsa Zsa as Queen of
> Venus?  Cool-looking spaceship with some semi-original spaceflight
> effects.

No, that one is QUEEN OF OUTER SPACE.  It had a witty, satirical
script by Charles Beaumont, who also had a number of stories done
for Twilight Zone.  The only problem is nobody told the director
that it was supposed to be comedy and he played it straight.  It did
not work out very well for anyone.  Next time notice that the
uniforms are left over from FORBIDDEN PLANET and most of the props
from WORLD WITHOUT END.

No FIRST SPACESHIP ON VENUS was a somewhat more serious film.  In it
a spool is found in the desert on Earth.  On it is a message saying
that the Venerians are about to attack Earth.  However the spool is
ancient and the proprosed attack never seems to have taken place.
An international effort sends a spaceship to Venus to investigate.
Some of the film is very moody.

>> 15.  Markolite
>>        American invention that combines ray cannon and deflecting
>>        shield in MYSTERIANS.  These days the Japanese would have it
>>        first, and it would unfold into a robot.
>
> WOW!!  I'll never forget that scene!  "Good news!  Good news!  The
> Amelicans have just deveroped a weapon that may well turn the
> tide!"  Remember the World Air Force?  Who could forget this one?

I don't think that they would mispronounce "Americans."  I believe
the organization is the Earth Defense Force, not the World Air
Force.

>> 24.  Rhodosaurus
>>        The second dinosaur to walk around in a modern city in a
>>        science fiction film (can anyone name the film that had
>>        the first?)  The forerunner of Godzilla was THE BEAST FROM
>>        20,000 FATHOMS.
> Wild guess--the Danish film _Reptilicus?_

No, REPTILICUS came in the 60's, BEAST was about 1953.  I know of
only four films shot in English that have had dinosaurs tromping
modern cities.  Three of them were directed by Eugene Lourie.
Lourie's were BEAST, GIANT BEHEMOTH, and GORGO.  The fourth, and the
first to be made, was the silent version of THE LOST WORLD.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #329
Date: 20 Jul 87 0812-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #329
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 87 0812-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #329
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 329

Today's Topics:

         Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anvil (2 msgs) & Bujold &
                 Card & Coney & DeCamp & Delany & Dick (2 msgs) &
                 Dickson & Gerrold & Heinlein & Lovecraft &
                 Palmer & Tepper (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 21:07:07 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: (* wee SPOILERS *) _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_

   I have just finished reading _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
Agency_ by Doug Adams.  As a fan of the _Hitchhiker's_ series, I
would recommend this book to other Adams fans.  Enough said on that.

   What I am really interested in is something I had seen on the net
some time ago concerned with the plot of _Dirk_ in respect to an
unfinished Doctor Who episode (Shada).  The article in question has
expired on my system.  Can anyone out there in net-land repost the
article or email me a copy ?  Also, has anyone else out there read
_Dirk_ and if so, what do you think about it ?  As I mentioned
above, I found it to be mainstream Doug Adams fare and as such
enjoyed it quite thoroughly.  I definitely see shadows of Doctor Who
in the book - some of it rather reminds me of _City of Death_ and
the Jagaroth - especially the Don's quarters/time machine which
seems to be another jammed chameleon circuit to me.  I must say,
though, that Mr. Adams fascination with computers resulted in some
rather awkward and out-of-place bits in the book.  I had no problem
with it (being a programmer) but I tend to think that
non-programmers might find it a bit annoying.

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 14:54:53 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU (The Prime Minister)
Subject: Re: (* wee SPOILERS *) _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
Subject: Agency_

There are some spoilers which follow, read at your own risk.

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>I have just finished reading _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
>Agency_ by Doug Adams.  As a fan of the _Hitchhiker's_ series, I
>would recommend this book to other Adams fans.  Enough said on
>that.

Agreed.

> Also, has anyone else out there read _Dirk_ and if so, what do you
>think about it ?  As I mentioned above, I found it to be mainstream
>Doug Adams fare and as such enjoyed it quite thoroughly.  I
>definitely see shadows of Doctor Who in the book - some of it
>rather reminds me of _City of Death_ and the Jagaroth - especially
>the Don's quarters/time machine which seems to be another jammed
>chameleon circuit to me.  I must say, though, that Mr. Adams
>fascination with computers resulted in some rather awkward and
>out-of-place bits in the book.  I had no problem with it (being a
>programmer) but I tend to think that non-programmers might find it
>a bit annoying.

I bought and read the book over the July 4th weekend.  I am not
going to comment on the computer stuff in it, it seemed OK to me.

When I read it, my mind kept flashing, "Shada" to me, and then "City
of Death".  Yes, it appears that he has finally novalised the two
books, combined into one!  Some names, even, are taken directly!

Oh well

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 87 11:13:54 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Chris Anvil
Cc: rlk@Think.COM, PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa

From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
>Does anyone have pointers to any of Christopher Anvil's work?  I
>just read _The King's Legions_ in Asimov's SF series titled _Tin
>Stars_ and loved it.  Did he write more stories in this setting?

   Christopher Anvil wrote lots of great stories which appeared in
Analog during the 60's and early 70's.  A few of these have come out
in books.
   One of my favorites is "Pandora's Planet" where earth is
"conquered" and let loose on the universe.  Humans turn out to be
"smarter" than the rest of the universe.  Whole planets end up being
taken over by humans and devote themselves to making cars, or racing
horses, and so on.
   There were a set of stories which appeared in Analog about a
group of humans helping out the race who took over earth.  The first
of three I remember have the hero solve the problem of what do you
do with a race which can teleport to anywhere in the universe and
has a conquest reflex.  In the second they find a planet which has
an intelligent race which can eat almost anything organic, and they
have never developed into tribes.  Our hero develops a method to
help the natives into groups.  In the third the planet had be
conquered, and was rebellion, the hero uses kites and other things
to win the war.
   Christopher Anvil always seem to write fun entertaining stories.
   Have a good day.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 87 22:27:37 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Animals & Anvil

     Christopher Anvil is a writer who has been around a long time
without ever quite hitting the big time.  You can find a lot of his
stories in old _Analog_s.  His most famous (and best) book is
probably _Pandora's Planet_, a funny book about a rather slow alien
race's first contact with humans.  (This book was expanded from a
novellette).  He has written at least two other books, whose titles
I have forgotten.
     About animals in SF, what about Murray Leinster's bears?  I
think that story (title again forgotten) won a Hugo.  And don't
forget the tormal from the Med stories.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 87 04:30:29 GMT
From: weitek!robert@RUTGERS.EDU (Karen L. Black)
Subject: Female author

Here are the titles of the Lois McMasters Bujold's novels:

   Shards of Honor
   The Warrior's Apprentice
   Ethan of Athos

I, too, heartily recommend these books.  Bujold is either an
engineer, or someone with an appreciation for engineering, because
all the little technical touches feel right.

Karen L. Black
{pyramid,cae780,sci}!weitek!karen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 10:45:38 GMT
From: "Michael J. Hammel" <SNHAM%TTUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: In reply to animals in SF:

Orson Scott Card did a really wonderful job with the "Piggies" in
Speaker for the Dead.  Although these were not true to life animals
(they are after all alien), they seemed close enough to throw them
in.  He also had the Buggers, but none of them ever really got
involved in the story line.  They were just there, save for the Hive
Queen, who only had a bit part anyway.

Michael J. Hammel
SNHAM @ TTUVM1

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 20:08:40 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Michael Coney

   Has anyone ever read "The Celestial Steam Locomotive" and "Gods
of the Greataway" by Michael Coney.  I heartily recommend these as
well.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@tc.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 00:02:05 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J
From: Brennan)
Subject: Re: Book Request

dand@tekigm2.TEK.COM (Dan Duval) writes:
>ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes:
>>    The description sounds entirely too much like the Harold Shea
>>stories by L. Sprague DeCamp and Fletcher Pratt.  There were five
>>in all, I recall, one of them being something like "The
>>Mathematics of Magic" . . .  The first two stories (novellas) can
>>be found in _The Incompleat Enchanter_, the first THREE stories
>>can be found in _The Compleat Enchanter_, and the last two can be
>>found in _Wall of Serpents_ (which I've never found, myself...).
>
>There is one other Harold de Shea story, published in "The Dragon"
>in the late 70's. That one you may have trouble tracking down.

   An error has been pointed out to me.  "Wall of Serpents" is the
fourth story, and was published alone . . .

   The fifth story is called "The Green Magician" and was indeed
published in _The Dragon_, issues no. 18 and 19, 1978.  Thank you
for reminding me.

   These issues are probably worth a punishing amount.  Don't get
your hopes up of finding them and being able to pay for them.

Jared J. Brennan
BITNET: INS_BJJB@JHUVMS, INS_BJJB@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_bjjb%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_bjjb
USnail: Box 193 Gilman Hall
        Johns Hopkins Univ.
        Baltimore, MD  21218

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 02:03:10 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!emily@RUTGERS.EDU (Emily Meyer)
Subject: Samuel Delany, The Einstein Intersection

Hi.

I just read 'The Einstein Intersection' by Samuel Delany.  I didn't
like it.  Since it won a Nebula award, someone had to like it.  If
you'd like to comment, good or bad, on the book, it would be greatly
appreciated.  I'm afraid I missed something.  Please mail me.
Thanks.

Emily

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 13:46:21 EDT
From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Phillip K. Dick

_The Transmigration of Timothy Archer_ is one of Dick's "mainstream"
novels, and thus might have a lesser chance of being found in a SF
bookstore, although at least one of these (_Confessions of a Crap
Artist_) has been published as SF.

As to the question of its being worth reading: of course it is!
EVERYTHING by PKD is worth reading.  And as you read it, think about
the fact that it, and _Valis_, and _Radio Free Albemuth_, and _The
Divine Invasion_, and possibly some others, are based on PKD's *real
life experiences*.

Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 02:16:19 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J
From: Brennan)
Subject: Re: Phillip K. Dick

TCORAM@UDCVAX.BITNET writes:
>I just started reading 'Radio Free Albemuth' by Phillip K. Dick and
>was reminded of his 'VALIS' trilogy.  I have read 'VALIS' and
>'DIVINE INVASION', but I cannot find 'The Transmigration of Timothy
>Archer' in any book stores.  Does 'The Transmigration...' take off
>where DIVINE INVASION ended or is it just 'related' to the other
>two books.

   If I'm totally wrong, forgive me, as it's been some time since I
read my last Phillip K. Dick book, and it wasn't The Transmigration.

   I don't think it was related at all to the other two books, but I
can't quite remember.  Inasmuch as it deals with the non-existence
of Christ (at least as we know him), and Archbishop Timothy Archer's
attempt to deal with this information . . . well, maybe.  One point
of interest is that, like the other two (three, including Radio)
books, it is told in first person, the narrator being Phillip K.
Dick himself, as I recall . . . it's difficult to say whether this
more powerfully conveys the despair in his books than his earlier
third person omniscient or not.

Jared J. Brennan
BITNET: INS_BJJB@JHUVMS, INS_BJJB@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_bjjb%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_bjjb
USnail: Box 193 Gilman Hall
        Johns Hopkins Univ.
        Baltimore, MD  21218

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 03:01:10 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Dickson

What about Dickson's followup to The Final Encyclopaedia? I believe
it's supposed to be called Childe. He may also be doing another
called Chantry Guild.

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 12:35 MST
From: JohnsonL@his-phoenix-multics.arpa
Subject: Sequels to Chtorr & World Out of Time

I am interested in finding out if anyone has heard of and/or seen
the sequel to "The War of the Chtorr" by David Gerrold (Am I correct
as to the name of the author)? I have the hardcover version of the
double novel "The Day of Damnation" and "A Matter of Time". If I
quote the titles incorrectly, I am reciting from memory.

Also, I would like to know if Larry Niven has done any other works
along the same line as "A World Out of Time".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 08:16:47 EDT
From: "Wm. L. Ranck" <RANCK%VTVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Heinlein

   I wasn't going to get involved in the Heinlein discussion, but I
finally can't help myself.  In 'The Cat Who Walks Through Walls'
there is a passage where the protagonist explains that readers don't
really want new and different writing, what they really want and
will buy is the same old stuff rehashed and repackaged.  I clearly
remember that particular passage because it gave me the feeling that
a cynical RAH was sticking out his tounge and going 'BLEAH' at his
audience.  I also remember it because I tend to agree with it.
   If a work truly takes risks and explores new territory the odds
are that it will meet with overwhelming apathy from the reading
public.  There is only a slight chance of soemthing new a different
being accepted.  This same thing applys to television, magazines,
etc.  The creative people in those industries soon learn that to
make a consistent buck and pay the rent on time they had better
stick to the 'tried and try'.
   That's why critics seem always to pick the financial losers.
They want to see new and different, the rest of us don't.

Bill Ranck

------------------------------

Date: Thu 16 Jul 87 13:09:02-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: re: Lovecraft//THE THING

From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>From:   inco!mack       (Dave Mack)
>> Whether Campbell took his inspiration from Lovecraft is an open
>> question, but it seems unlikely. Given Campbell's outlook on life
>> and politics, it is more likely to be a commentary on creeping
>> Communism (Your neighbors, your friends, even your children could
>> be THEM!) As a depiction of paranoia, it's superb.
>
> It's doubtful that it's a "commentary on creeping Communism",
> since at the time it was written (the 30's), there wasn't that big
> a deal about Communism. Now, Finney's [INVASION OF] THE BODY
> SNATCHERS (and the film as well), coming out of the McCarthy Era,
> was definitely so.

Actually, before he embraced a Futurian kind of socialism before he
died, Lovecraft would have made McCarthy seem like a Yippie. He was
pretty rabidly conservative, in a 19th century kind of way. See L.
Sprague de Camp's excellent biography of Lovecraft for more info.
Also, the 20's was the time of the big Red Scare in reaction to the
Russian Revolution, and there was indeed a big brouhaha going on
about Bolshevism.

Anyway, I think the similarities between "Invasion of the Body
Snatchers" and _At the Mountains of Madness_ were pretty
superficial: They are both horror stories set in Antarctica, and
that's about as far as it goes.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 03:01:10 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Palmer's new book

Does anyone know when David Palmer's sequel to Threshold is supposed
to be out?

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 87 11:16:21 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper
Cc: jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu

From: jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
>Just out of curiosity, are there any other Sheri Tepper fans out
>there?  She's had 15 books published so far:

   Does anyone know when the next story in the True Names series
will be out?  I've got up to Jinian Star-eye.  Had heard there was to
be a tenth.
   Thanks in advance.
   Have a good day.

Henry III
cate3.pa@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 18:57:41 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper

I've read the trilogy about Peter
>King's Blood Four
>Necromancer Nine
>Wizard's Eleven

which I thought was pretty good, but not incredible, and the trilogy
about Jinian (and Peter)

>Jinian Footseer
>Dervish Daughter
>Jinian Star-eye

which I thought was fantastic!  I highly recommend these.

Linda Kinsel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #330
Date: 20 Jul 87 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #330
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 87 0841-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #330
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 330

Today's Topics:

             Miscellaneous - Sflovers Digest in Omni &
                             Westercon & Stories vs Plots (2 msgs) &
                             Singers Needed & SF Writer's Group &
                             Filk Songs (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 87 11:14:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: SF-LOVERS DIGEST IN OMNI

    This may have already been posted, but just in case...  I just
got the JULY OMNI and on page 22 in an article about on-line info
they say:

         The demand for intellectual rigor extends even to the world
      of science fiction.  The SF-Lovers Digest bulletin board can
      have excruciatingly detailed postings tearing apart authors
      who make the slightest error in extrapolating about the
      future.  After a point-by-point dissection of one book's
      generally workable ship-propulsion system, one message
      concluded, "Why do authors have to make up stupid stardrives
      when you can get any number of working ones from the _Journal
      of the British Interplanetary Society_?"
         Saul Jaffe, a systems programmer at Rutgers University, has
      become a celebrity at science-fiction conventions because of
      his role as moderator of the SF-Lovers Digest bulletin board.
      Each day he sifts through the reams of potential postings that
      pour into his office and selects the best to be packaged for
      SF-Lovers Digest. "The last time someone sat down and tried to
      figure out how many people were reading SF-Lovers," he says,
      "it came out to be a subscription base of something like
      twenty thousand people and growing."

Neil A.  Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 18:56:03 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Westercon 40 Report

Westercon 40, the big west coast regional came and went. There was a
large number of east coast fans (most mainly associated by guilt
with Boskone :-) in attendence. Much more so than normal. Many are
even regulars in this group. This convention was not very
competently handled in many ways. Registration was inept. The
masquerade director did not appoint a photo area director until one
week before the con. There was no Sunday business meeting scheduled
so site selection had to be closed early on Saturday morning.

Still there were no major problems that I was aware of. The hotel
was talked into providing around the clock snack bars for the con.
The name badges had large readable names but only for pre-regs. The
art show had direct sales which I love.

This was not one of the better run cons but it was no disaster
either.  I had fun despite the problems.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
..!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Mon Jul  6 14:24:38 1987
From: 321143%PITTVMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: STORIES VS PLOTS

I would like some opinions on the following question:

What is the relative importance of having a plot twist/unique
idea/something wierd in your F/SF story versus just telling the
story well or having engrossing characters.  I know all are
important, but which is the _most_ important, or rather, what are
your opinions of their relative importances?

jeff sullivan
12321_321143@PittVMS on BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 87 00:42:34 GMT
From: moss!codas!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: STORIES VS PLOTS

321143@pittvms.BITNET says:
> What is the relative importance of having a plot twist/unique
> idea/something wierd in your F/SF story versus just telling the
> story well or having engrossing characters.  I know all are
> important, but which is the _most_ important, or rather, what are
> your opinions of their relative importances?

A "plot twist" is often a DETRIMENT to a story, depending on whether
it is "kludged" into the story or not.

It is important to have something to say, and some action which is
taking place. It is not absolutely necessary to have "a zongo plot".
All that you need is a setting, some characters in that setting, and
set them in motion.  One of the biggest plot-holes that beginning
writers get into is the "easy-doin'" plot-hole -- they get a point
in a story, and say "hmm, well, I need something to happen hre, I'll
just make George kill Lorretta", with no real motivation, no real
characterizations which would explain why he'd do such a thing, and
otherwise just "grasping for straws".

Of course, I HAVE been known to stress characterization over devious
plotting in the past, so get a second opinion from another
net.aspiring-writer....

Eric Green
{ihnp4,cbosgd}!killer!elg
elg@usl.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 17:37:15 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Singers needed for Philcon Musical

If you are attending this year's Philcon and know the music to
"1776" I could use your help.

We're performing a fannish version of the musical (Harlan Ellison as
John Adams, Isaac Asimov as Ben Franklin...you get the idea) and
need singers for the chorus (and maybe some larger parts if all the
principals don't show up).

Those of you with long memories may remember this was first (and
only) performed at 1980's Lunacon.

The plot has to do with SFWA's reaction to a first amendment
question (hey, I'm not giving the whole plot away!)

If you're interested, and are planning at being at the con, drop me
email.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 87 01:32:37 GMT
From: yamauchi@speech2.cs.cmu.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: SF Writers Group

The SF Writers Group is a mailing list which exists for the
following purposes:

    To give people interested in writing Science Fiction, Fantasy,
    and related genres professionally a support group of peers for
    where information can be shared and discussions of the task of
    writing can be carried on.

    To create an environment where Works In Progress can be passed
    around and criticized so that the author can find the weak spots
    and polish the manuscript into a sellable work.

Membership is open to anyone who has in interest in writing
SF/fantasy regardless of previous experience or
published/unpublished status.

The SF Writers Group has been in existence for about a year, but
there have been some recent changes to the way the group has been
administered (new members are added immediately instead of being put
on a waiting list, the mailing list site has been moved, etc).

Send any questions or membership requests to
yamauchi@speech2.cs.cmu.edu

Brian Yamauchi
Carnegie-Mellon University
Computer Science Department
ARPANET: yamauchi@speech2.cs.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 00:30:47 GMT
From: OK2%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Songs from SF/F and other extravagances

   Many sf novels have drinking songs etc. in them, some of them
pretty funny, (or punny, as the case may be).  The same goes for
fantasy.  Remember "Give Me That Old Time Religion!" from Dream Park
(by Larry Niven, as if I hadda tell you:-)?  There are also other
songs, that come into being through fandom.  Unfortunately, many of
the funnier drinking songs escape me (drinking while singing does
not make learning songs easier) Anybody out there have any favorite
songs from sf/f books or from other sources but about the same?
Might as well throw in songs about Fantasy role playing too.  You
can send to me, if you can reach me, and I'll put it all together
and post, or you can just post it here.  I'd like to hear from you,
thanks in advance.

steve

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 03:15:53 GMT
From: OK2%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: s/f songs?

   Does anybody out there know, or know of, songs (or drinking
songs) related to science fiction of fantasy?  Not so much songs
from books, but from the sub- culture that has grown up around sf/f.
I have heard fragments of a few, some of which are very funny (those
are the types I am most interested in) but I can't recall more than
fragments.  For example, my brother heard a song at a party that had
a chorus something like

    "Banned from Argos everyone!" (Argos? Argus? Sp?)
    "Banned from Argos, just for having a little fun!"
    "We spent a jolly shore leave there for just three days or four,"
    "But Argos doesn't want us anymore!"

   And goes on to describe the activities of several crewmebers from
a star ship (star trek type starship, I think) out on an *ahem*
recreational outing.  Anybody out there know more?

Steve Owens
OK2@psuvma

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 16:46:25 GMT
From: daemon@BLOOM-BEACON.MIT.EDU (Mr Background)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?

>    "Banned from Argos everyone!" (Argos? Argus? Sp?)
>    "Banned from Argos, just for having a little fun!"
>    "We spent a jolly shore leave there for just three days or four,"
>    "But Argos doesn't want us anymore!"

Okay, first of all, that's "Argo", the song is "Banned from Argo",
it was written by Leslie Fish (First Among Filkers, in my humble
opinion), and it is the first filksong most people hear and
remember.  It was the first one <I> heard (nigh unto four years
ago.)  It's been around a LONG time (for a filksong), and as a
result most filkers who've been around for a little while will groan
loudly if you request it, because it's been played to death and then
some.  But it's still a very amusing song. (If you want all the
lyrics, just ask.  It's too long to post unless you really want it.)

As for other songs concerned with F&SF fandom, several dozen exist
(maybe hundreds; most filking goes on on the West Coast and I don't
know what percentage filters over here to Boston--not enough for my
taste), far too many to simple start posting them randomly.  Do you
have any specific requests I might be able to fill? (My filk
collection recently expanded to a third 2-inch ring binder, plus
several published songbooks.  Most of this is gleaned from
transcribing Off Centaur tapes and trading with other filkers.)

If you're willing to put out some cash, you can get tapes of
filksongs from the aforementioned Off Centaur publications (don't
have the address with me at the moment--didn't Jordin Kare use to be
on this net?  Jordin? You out there?) as well as songbooks of some
of it with lyrics and guitar chords.  Most live con tapes are a
mixture of some serious and some humorous songs (and some just plain
weird ones) in varying degrees of quality.  If you're primarly
interested in humour, you should keep an eye out for the name Frank
Hayes.  He writes a moderate number of wickedly funny filks (the man
has a SICK mind, be warned).  The only trouble you might have is
that he tends to parody other "serious" filks a great deal, so you
might not get all the jokes unless you have something of a filk
background.

Hmm, this is getting a bit long.  If you'd be a bit more specific
about what kind of songs you'd like to see, I'd have better luck
posting some that would interest you.  (I'll flame about filksongs
until the sun goes down, given the opportunity.)

Jen Hawthorne

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 16:41:41 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?

Well, if anyone is interested, I could post the lyrics to my
filksong "The Battle Hymn of the Retreat," a Star Trek parody that
won an honorable mention in the Boskone filksong contest a couple of
years back.

Also, I believe Off Centaur Publications sells tapes of filksongs of
all types.

(For those wondering, a filksong is a folksong written by and for
sf/f fans.)

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 17:05:34 GMT
From: 6082317@pucc.princeton.edu (Douglas Davidson)
Subject: Re:  SF songs aka filk

OK2@PSUVMA.BITNET  writes:
>     Does anybody out there know, or know of, songs (or drinking
>songs) related to science fiction of fantasy?
 [e.g.]
>    "Banned from Argos everyone!" (Argos? Argus? Sp?)
>    "Banned from Argos, just for having a little fun!"
>    "We spent a jolly shore leave there for just three days or four,"
>    "But Argos doesn't want us anymore!"

The song you quote is called "Banned from Argo", by Leslie Fish, and
the chorus is very much as you quote, with 'Argo' for 'Argos'.  It
is something of a classic of the genre, but you may have difficulty
getting people to sing it for you; the cognoscenti collectively got
sick and tired of it a few years ago, mainly because every neo
requests it.  There is even a parody in circulation called "We Won't
Sing 'Banned from Argo' Anymore".  "Banned from Argo" is available
in print, I believe in the NESFA Hymnal, as well as on tape from
Off-Centaur.  The musical genre in question is known as 'filk',
corrupted from 'folk', usually defined as the music peculiar (very
peculiar) to science fiction and fantasy fandom.  Filk is an active
subculture with a long history; its chief meeting places are the
filk rooms of conventions late at night, but it may be found
wherever a few filkers get together with an instrument or two.  Its
chief publishing house is Off-Centaur Press, whose Jordin Kare is on
the net.  I suggest you find a convention big enough to have a filk
room and just dive in.  The west coast is unfortunately notably more
active than the east in this matter; Boskone was particularly good
this year, but all bets are off for the future.  Perhaps somebody
else can report on the recent Filkcon in Delaware.

Douglas Davidson
BITNET: 6082317@PUCC
UUCP: ...allegra!psuvax1!pucc.bitnet!6082317

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 87 19:00:33 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?

jen@nessus.UUCP (Jennifer Hawthorne) writes:
>have any specific requests I might be able to fill? (My filk
>collection recently expanded to a third 2-inch ring binder, plus

   One _I_ would like to see is "The Ballad of the Three Fans",
which I heard at Noreascon II. It is presumably a parody of Poul
Anderson's "Three kings went riding", and describes a fantasized
revenge after some con at the Hyatt Los Angeles. "Three fans went
down to Los Angeles town......"
  "And to Hell with the Hyatt Hotel".

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 02:03:01 GMT
From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re:"The Ballad of Three Fans"

I know of the song "The Ballad of Three Fans"; I don't have the
words myself but I think I can get them from a filker friend (I
believe they were published in the fanzine Philk-Fee-Nom-Ee-Non;
their spelling, not mine.)  I'll post them in a week or so if I
succeed in digging them up.

Jen Hawthorne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #331
Date: 20 Jul 87 0856-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #331
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 87 0856-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #331
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 331

Today's Topics:

               Books - Gunn (2 msgs) & Lem (2 msgs) &
                       Norton (3 msgs) & Wells (2 msgs) &
                       Politics in SF (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 22:40:15 GMT
From: steven@hpldola.hp.com (Steven Sharp)
Subject: Re: Book Request

Sounds more like The Magicians by James Gunn.  At the end of the
book, the reader is told to look for the publication of the
(presumably fictional) book The Mathematics of Magic written by the
mild mannered mathematician who wants to reveal the mathematical
basis of magic to the world.  The protagonist of the story is a
private eye who is hired to find out the true name of the villain.
He starts getting involved in the supernatural events at a Covention
[sic, but not really].  Normally I wouldn't have added to the flood
of replies to this, but I expect everyone to respond with The
Complete Enchanter.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 21:02:57 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Book Request

mhnadel@gryphon.CTS.COM (Miriam Nadel) writes:
> kin@cunixc.UUCP (Kin-Fai Wong) writes:
>>Many years ago, I read a fantasy book in which a mild mannered man
>>discovered how to use magic in the "real" world by application of
>>mathematics. I would like to locate this book but have forgotten
>>the title.  I believe that the plot involved the standard rescuing
>>of a virgin from dastardly evil villians. Somewhere in the book
>>(or maybe on an inner cover) was mentioned a book by the name of
>>THE MATHEMATICS OF MAGIC. If anyone know which book I am talking
>>about, please post a reply. Thanks in advance.
>
> You are referring to a book called _The Mathematics of Magic_
> which was part of a series by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher
> Pratt.

Sorry if this repeats something posted earlier, but i've been on
vacation.

The description sounds more like a book by Gunn (I think).  Don't
remember the title right off.  It starts off with a detective being
hired by a little old lady (i forget just what he's hired to
do--find someone, maybe?).  He ends up going to a hotel, where
they're having this witches convention.  The little old lady that
hired him turns out to be the attractive daughter of this nice
mathematics professor who has figured out how to manipulate magic
mathematically.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 14:30:53 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Lem's _Cyberiad_

klm@knopfler.UUCP (Kevin McBride) writes:
>It is very obvious that the person who performed the translation of
>this work from the Polish to the English is an extraordinarily good
>translator.  We need more like him.

His name is, I believe, Michael Kandel (or something very like it).
He's translated a good number of Lem's works into English.
Unfortunately, "Solaris," which is perhaps Lem's greatest novel, was
translated by a lesser talent. My dream is to see a Kandel
translation of "Solaris" some day...

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 08:56:27 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!tut!santra!news@RUTGERS.EDU (news)
Subject: Re: Lem's _Cyberiad_

jiml@alberta.UUCP (Jim Laycock) writes:
>For instance, I am completely at a loss as to how the following
>might have appeared in Polish:
>
>  "Have it compose a poem--a poem about a haircut!  But lofty,
>noble, tragic, timeless, full of love, treachery, retribution,
>quiet heroism in the fact of certain doom!  Six lines, cleverly
>rhymed, and every word beginning with the letter s!!"

Probably the polish version is greatly different from the english
one.  For example, the finnish "translation" is (something like):

"Have it compose a love poem! But it must be timeless, tragic and
noble, with history and zoology, Mediterranean and Oriental
feelings, cybernetics, death and deceit and reminiscences from
Middle-Asia. Six lines, with rhymes and every word beginning with a
"k"."

The finnish poem has no resemblance to the english one. (I am wise
enough not to try to translate it to english!). Also the next poem
has no title in the finnish version, altough it is about love,
tensor algebra and computers.

Hmm... Just looked for the name of the translator (Matti Kannosto)
and found that the finnish version was translated from the english
one!!!  I quess this still tells us something about translating a
book ...

Juha Kuusama
jku@kolvi
...!mcvax!tut!kolvi!jku

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87  3:50 -0800
From: Jacob Reichbart <jacob%noah.arc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #324

I've also wondered about dark art of translation after reading LEM's
work translated into English.  Having read all the SF and
non-fiction, there's only one bad translation I've come across - The
Invincible(s?). This was an British Penguin pub that may not have
been available in North America; just as well.

I picked up a copy of the latest in an airport the other day
(Denver? SLC?  it was a Saturday), called "One Human Minute".  It
was wonderful.  Besides getting a translation with a sense of
humour, one gets a very funny collection of nonsense statistics that
makes the Guiness Book of... look pedestrian by comparison.  Have
you ever wondered how much mothers' milk is created worldwide during
a minute ?  How about other vital bodily fluids ?

jacob

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 23:28:20 GMT
From: vax1!ag4@RUTGERS.EDU (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Andre Norton: Witch World query

Can someone provide a list and/or summary and/or recomendations for
Andre Norton's Witch World novels?  I've heard of them several
times, but don't know which of her novels are set in the Witch
World.

Thanks,
Anne

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 05:50:23 GMT
From: wenn@GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton: Witch World query

Witch World books have been published by many different companies
(Ace, DAW, Del Rey, Tor, among others), so just looking at the
"other Witch World books" inside the front cover never gives you a
complete list.  As far as I know (as owner of ~60 Andre Norton
books, plus several reference books), this is a complete list of
Witch World books:

Estcarp
   Witch World [1963]
   Web of the Witch World [1964]
   Three Against the Witch World [1965]
   Warlock of the Witch World [1967]
   Sorceress of the Witch World [1968]
   The Trey of Swords [1977]
   'Ware Hawk [1983]
High Halleck
   The Year of the Unicorn [1965]
   The Crystal Gryphon [1972]
   Spell of the Witch World [1972] (Story Collection)
   The Jargoon Pard [1974]
   Zarsthor's Bane [1978]
   Horn Crown [1981]
   The Gryphon in Glory [1981]
   Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] (with A. C. Crispin)
Both Estcarp & High Halleck stories
   Lore of the Witch World [1980] (Story Collection)
   Tales of the Witch World [1987] (Anthology edited by Andre Norton)

The stories either take place in Estcarp or in High Halleck.  The
two story cycles are essentially independent.  Estcarp is a
matriarchal society under the rigid control of the Witches (women
with magic). The Estcarp books should be read in chronological
order, since each book progresses from the actions of the previous
books (this is less true of "'Ware Hawk").

High Halleck is a newly colonized land that was mysteriously empty
when the colonists arrived.  There still exists, however, places and
objects of power left from the old inhabitants; places helpful,
neutral or harmful to humankind.  Most of the stories occur when
High Halleck is invaded by another continent (but "The Horn Crown"
covers the colonization of the High Halleck).  The books are
essentially independent with a few exceptions ("The Year of the
Unicorn -> The Jargoon Pard" and "The Crystal Gryphon -> The Gryphon
in Glory -> Gryphon's Eyrie").

Witch World is one of my all time favorite series, but then I really
like Andre Norton.  The best places to start would be "Witch World"
for Estcarp, and "The Horn Crown" for High Halleck.  Both are good
introductions to the series.  If you like these, by all means read
the entire series.

John

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 11:07 -0800
From: Jacob Reichbart <jacob%noah.arc.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: HGWells

I'm glad to see more folks remarking about HGW, the father of modern
science fiction.  I've been collecting out of print editions since I
roamed the used book shops of Chicago.  Amazing what people didn't
know they had.  Have you read:

  Brynhild or The Show of Things
  The Shape of Things to Come
  The Holy Terror
  The World of William Clissold, (2 volumes)
  The King Who was a King
  The Work Wealth and Happiness of Mankind

There's a great private library in Chicago, The Newbury, that has
lots of his work in lovely first editions.  I did a grad seminar
with Leon Stover at IIT that was all Wells for a couple of
semesters. Oh, those were the days.

Did you know that Bertie, (that's what his mom and friends called
him), did not proof read his work.  He wrote everything long hand
and had a messenger take the stuff down to the publisher chapter by
chapter.

What I enjoy most about his work is the command of the language.  He
used SF as medium to comment about prevailing peculiarities of the
time, (sound familiar?).  While he is remembered as an author, he
chose that path because he just didn't have the height or political
charisma but, boy, did he ever want to change the world.  Some more
titles:

  A Modern Utopia
  Experiment in Autobiography
  The Passionate Freinds
  Christina Alberta's Father
  Joan and Peter
  Kipps, The Story of a Simple Soul
  The History of Mr. Polly

The list goes on.  He wrote something like a 180 titles in 40 years,
ranging from fairly heady biology, (today we call it 'sociobiology',
with apologies to Edmund O. Wilson), with Julian Huxley to movie
screenplays, (Things to come, Man who could work Miracles...) and
encyclopeadic stuff.

enjoy

jacob

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 21:41:01 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: HGWells

H. G. wells fans would probably enjoy Moorcock's "Dancers at the End
of Time", which features Wells as a character.  The parts featuring
Wells are among the funniest in the series, but Moorcock has also
(as usual when he presents historical settings) done his homework on
the period.

"Dancers" is a trilogy, to my knowledge the only authentically funny
trilogy in science fiction or fantasy.  There are also a couple of
auxiliary books which are entertaining but not up to the trilogy's
standards.  Read the first book, "An Alien Heat", and see if you
want to pursue the rest.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 15 Jul 87 01:11:58-EDT
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@cu20b.columbia.edu>
Subject: Alternate forms of democracy.

   Hi!
   I'm wondering if anyone could provide references to SF stories
involving participatory democracy (as opposed to the
'representative' form the (for example) US Government provides). The
only one I can think of is a minor vignette in 'Exiles of the Heaven
Belt' (one of the Vinges I think). I am particularly interested in
the effects of modern, high-speed communications and computers on
systems of government.

Peter Trei
oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 20:47:42 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy.

OC.TREI@cu20b.columbia.edu wrote:
>I'm wondering if anyone could provide references to SF stories
>involving participatory democracy (as opposed to the
>'representative' form the (for example) US Government provides).
>The only one I can think of is a minor vignette in 'Exiles of the
>Heaven Belt' (one of the Vinges I think).

That's "Outcasts of Heaven Belt" by Joan Vinge.  Another example can
be found in "The Probability Broach" by L. Neil Smith.

>I am particularly interested in the effects of modern, high-speed
>communications and computers on systems of government.

Try reading "Marooned in Realtime" by Vernor Vinge.  One of its most
interesting points is that as technology gets better and better, we
will need governments less and less.  Also, I recall a wonderful
short story along the same lines a few years back by Kevin
O'Donnell, called "Judo and the Art of Self-Government".  It
appeared in Analog, and as far as I know has not been anthologized
anywhere.

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 19:09:45 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy.

>From: Peter G. Trei
>I'm wondering if anyone could provide references to SF stories
>involving participatory democracy (as opposed to the
>'representative' form the (for example) US Government provides).
>The only one I can think of is a minor vignette in 'Exiles of the
>Heaven Belt' (one of the Vinges I think). I am particularly
>interested in the effects of modern, high-speed communications and
>computers on systems of government.

Try _A Planet Between_ by Norman Spinrad.  It has exactly what
you're asking for at least as far as communication is concerned
(computers are mainly used to do instant ratings of shows).  It also
has quite a lot on feminism (written during the 70's obviously).

For computer influences, in _Ender's Game_ (the book, not the short
story) Orson Scott Card extrapolates on computer nets essentially
taking over the function of newspapers.  The nets would have
commentators who are paid for weekly columns.  It's more
participatory than newspapers but in a hierarchical manner (i.e.
major international nets only allow certain people to post while
national and regional nets are less stringent).

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 11:35:27 GMT
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy.

From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@cu20b.columbia.edu>
>I'm wondering if anyone could provide references to SF stories
>involving participatory democracy ..

Ursula K. LeGuins novel "The Disposessed" describes an anarcistic
society.  That is probably the ultimate in participatory democracy,
if it works...

Lars-Henrik Eriksson
...!mcvax!enea!sics!lhe

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 18:58:56 GMT
From: john@hpcvlo.hp.com (John Eaton)
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy.

>I'm wondering if anyone could provide references to SF stories
>involving participatory democracy (as opposed to the
>'representative' form the (for example) US Government provides).

There is a story by Asimov that is the ultimate in NON-participatory
democracy. In it pollsters have gotten so good at predicting
election results from smaller and smaller samples that you could
predict the results of any election from a sample of one. The
election laws were changed to allow Multivac to select one voter who
would then spend a day answering questions. The computer then
decided which candidates would have won their races and they are
declared the winners.

I forget the name but it was written about the time that the
networks were starting to use computer exit polls to predict
election winners.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #332
Date: 20 Jul 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #332
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jul 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #332
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 332

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 15:33:37 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!scdpyr!faulkner@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Faulkner)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) writes:
> Someone please correct me if they have information to the
> contrary, but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my
> professor said that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit
> names from real people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a
> West Virgina telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

You must be kidding!  First of all how would Tolkien get a West
Virginia telephone book?  (It's not impossible, but highly
improbable.)  Secondly, I don't think anyone in W VA would have had
a name like Frodo or Bilbo.  In addition, I know that Tolkien got
the dwarves names from a piece of Old English / Norse (not sure
which language an I don't remember the name of the piece) epic
poetry.  As for the rest of the names, who really knows.  It was
probably a combination of name barrowing and name invention.  I do
agree that the names he used were excellent.  Not only do they sound
real, but it is obvious when given a new name, what group (race or
"nationality") the character is from.  Hobbits have their own types
of names as do the dwarves, elfs, Numenoeans (sp?), etc., Although
there are occasional cross-overs like Faramir seems to be a cross of
a Gondor type of name and an Elvish one, but given the character,
such a combo makes sense.  Now if only I could come up with such
good names.

Bill Faulkner
National Center for Atmospheric Research
PO Box 3000
Boulder, CO 80307-3000
303-497-1259
UUCP: faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP
      ..!hao!scdpyr!faulkner
INTERNET: faulkner@scdpyr.ucar.edu
ARPA: faulkner%ncar@csnet-relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 17-Jul-1987 0849
From: vesper%3d.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (A waist is a terrible thing to
From: mind)
Subject: Tolkien's Names

From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkein/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkein got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

I immediately said ``no, that's wrong, he got all the names from the
_Edda_, Tales from Norse Mythology.''  I went home and started
seaching my copy of the _Prose_Edda_ for all the names, and found
those listed below.  Then I check the note again and noted that you
said HOBBIT names, not DWARF names. I had looked up all the DWARF
names.

I don't know where Tolkien got his hobbit names, but what would he
be doing with a West Virginia telephone book anyway? (According to
my copy of _The_Hobbit_, ``J.R.R. Tolkien was at Pembroke College,
Oxford, as Professor of Anglo-Saxon from 1925 to 1945 and then,
until his retirement in 1959, as Merton Professor of English
Language and Literature.'')  If he did get them from a telephone
directory, it would be more likely to be a British one.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in Dwarf names, here is my list. The
names are 8-bit, using the ISO Latin Nr. 1 alphabet.

The 13 Dwarfs, in order of appearance at the `unexpected party':

   Tolkien              Edda                    Translation

   Dwalin      Dvalin         One lying in a trance
   Balin      ? Blain (Bla'in)
   Kili      Kili
   Fili      Fili
   Dori      Dsri (Do'ri)
   Nori      Nori
   Ori      Sri (O'ri)      Raging one
   Oin      Sin (O'in)
   Gloin      Glsin (Glo'in)
   Bifur      Bifur
   Bofur      Bafur (Ba'fur)
   Bombur      Bvmbvr (Bo"mbo"r)
   Thorin      Thorin         Bold one

Other names of interest:

   Gandalf      Ganndalf (Gannda'lf)
Translation: Sorcerer elf

   Thrain      ? Thrsin (Thro'in)
Thorin's father, also Thrain the old, a `far ancestor' of Thorin.

   Thror      Thrsr (Thro'r)
Thorin's grand-father.

   Dain      Dain (Da'in)
A kinsman of Thorin, leader of one of the 5 Armies, became new `King
Under the Mountain'.

   Nain      Nain (Na'in)
Dain's father.

   Durin      Durin
According to Tolkien, Durin was the ``father of the fathers of the
eldest race of Dwarves''.  According to the _Prose_Edda_,
``Mspsognir (Mo'<dth>sognir) was the most famous, and next to him
Durin.''

Now, from what source did Tolkien get the names of his Elves?  (This
is not a trick question. I don't know the answer.)

Andy V

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 18:39:30 GMT
From: harvard!linus!dartvax!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek J. LeLash)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der Mouse) writes:
>His choice of names also betrays his expertise in the languages
>from which English formed; they all sound correct.  Too many
>fantasy books have names which sound as though the author had
>picked letters out of a hat or something - Tolkien's invariably
>ring true.

Since I just wrote a research paper on this very subject, I feel
qualified to add my $.02 here.  Tolkien's names "sound right"
because in most cases they *are* right.  For instance, the person-
and place-names in Rohan are Old English words, which fits the
Anglo-Saxon nature of the Riders' culture.  Examples: Meduseld =
'mead-hall' (this appears in _Beowulf_), Eorl = 'king,'
           meara = 'steed.'
(As an even better confirmation of this, the names of the kings of
Rohan before the coming of the Riders are in Welsh (Gothic?), the
language of the earliest residents of the British Isles).

Another example is the naming of the dwarves, all or most of which
was lifted from the Old Norse "Elder Edda" (the 'Bible' of Norse
mythology).  Thus, the names "sound right" for the dwarves, whose
culture is similar in the eyes of the reader to their earthy,
battle-oriented image of Norsemen.  I could go on at length (indeed,
I did :-), but I think my point is made.

Derek LeLash
{wherever}!dartvax!derek
derek@dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 87 17:25:24 GMT
From: hplabs!well!booter@RUTGERS.EDU (Elaine Richards)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der Mouse) write:
>> [About Tolkien's grace and ability with fantasy names]
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Flat out false rumor. How would he get a West Virginia phone book?
:-) I was so taken with Tolkien as a teenager that I went on to
receive a BA in Medieval Studies. Many of the names were taken from
OE, ME and Norse literature. Themes were also taken from mythology
and literature.  It was delightful opening Yet Another Legend and
finding a source for Tolkien's work.

For example, Frodo (the name) is based on an epic hero named Frodhi
or Frodi (or maybe even Frodo, per se). Alas, the excellent library
at Columbia University is 3,000 miles away :-<. Frodhi, by the way
was Norse.

Many of the dwarves were named after heros too.

Sideline. My favorite theme is of the Elves going to the Land of the
Uttermost West. In Irish and Greek(!) mythology, a race of fair,
beautiful and graceful people, known as the Tuatha de Danaan
migrated across Greece and Europe to flee to the Westernmost (known)
islands. These islands were (of course) Ireland and Britain (and the
other littler islands).  I don't know Gaelic, but the name Tuatha de
Danaan refers to the people mentioned as being eternally young.

I could go on for kilobytes, but I really have other stuff to do
today :-)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 17:44:05 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Your professor was obviously reading a humor magazine. :-) As for
the West Virginia angle, I did hear that there was a clan of
Tallfellows living outside of Wheeling, so they may have been in the
Phone book. :-) In reality, Tolkein got all his names out of The
Elder Edda, which is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I
remember correctly).  In fact there was a passage from the Edda that
has the list of names of all the dwarves that accompany Bilbo on his
journey in _The Hobbit_.

Mike King
...!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 01:08:37 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

>Your professor was obviously reading a humor magazine. :-) As for
>the West Virginia angle, I did hear that there was a clan of
>Tallfellows living outside of Wheeling, so they may have been in
>the Phone book.  :-) In reality, Tolkein got all his names out of
>The Elder Edda, which is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I
>remember correctly).  In fact there was a passage from the Edda
>that has the list of names of all the dwarves that accompany Bilbo
>on his journey in _The Hobbit_.

This is about the third or fourth useless response I've seen to the
original question.  Yes, the dwarves and "Frodo" and the like came
from some great myths.  But this is well-known, and was almost
certainly mentioned in Christopher's class, so I doubt any of you
have informed him of something he (or the rest of us?) didn't know.
Now on to the real question: just where did those great hobbit names
like "Baggins", "Took", "Gamgee", "Sackville", "Proudfoot" etc come
from?

Considering that until late in this century most of West Virginia
was highly isolated physically--and hence linguistically
well-preserved from colonial days--I don't think it's obvious in the
least that the story is false.  It would have been an ideal place to
grab names that sounded quaint, shirish, and mutually consistent.
Had the story been about Massachusetts, say, I would have
automatically gone along with the "obvious" rejections.  But West
Virginia?  That gives the story a sophisticated touch.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 19:36:51 GMT
From: petsd!cjh@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

Lin Carter, in _Tolkien:_a_Look_Behind_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_, says
(if memory serves) that Tolkien got many of his names (esp. for
dwarves) from Norse literature.  Some of them are in use in
Scandinavian countries today; e.g. there is or recently was a
mathematician named Thorin.  As for the West Virginia telephone
book, it sounds to me like SOMEbody's leg is being pulled.  Tolkien
lived in Oxford, England; how many West Virginia phone books would
he find there?

Regards,
Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 11:32:00 GMT
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP (Bill Faulkner) writes:
>Although there are occasional cross-overs like Faramir seems to be
>a cross of a Gondor type of name and an Elvish one, but given the
>character, such a combo makes sense.  Now if only I could come up
>with such good names.

Faramir, and many other people of Gondor, had elvish names because
their culture was heavily influenced by the elvish culture (this is
stated quite clearly in the books).

Lars-Henrik Eriksson
!mcvax!enea!sics!lhe

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 20:11:41 GMT
From: ashton@hpfclm.hp.com (Ashton Delahoussaye)
Subject: Re: tolkien/apartheid

   I fail to see any relationship between apartheid and Tolkien's
characters.  It has been a long time since my last reading of "Lord
of the Rings", but I got the impression he was attempting to draw an
analogy to the spectrum of light.  White, contains all possible
colors and therefore is greater in power than any other.

Ashton
hpfcla!ashton
Fort Collins, Co.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 87 03:43:26 GMT
From: gds@spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

Better parallels of Tolkien to Christianity (in my opinion) are the
story of the creation of Ea, particularly the Music of the Ainur,
which is analogous to God's creation of the universe, after which
the angels sang praises (paraphrased).

Also there is the fall of Melkor, similar to the fall of Lucifer.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 23:37:02 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!ncc!ers!neil@RUTGERS.EDU (neil)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
> informed him of something he (or the rest of us?) didn't know.
> Now on to the real question: just where did those great hobbit
> names like "Baggins", "Took", "Gamgee", "Sackville", "Proudfoot"
> etc come from?

Probably the Oxford phone book, though as he lived in Oxford, his
friends and acquaintances would be more than sufficient inspiration.
Oxford as you know was/is(?) where many of the races of the empire
sent their sons. Those that could afford it of course.....

> Considering that until late in this century most of West Virginia
> was highly isolated physically--and hence linguistically
> well-preserved from colonial days--I don't think it's obvious in
> the least that the

Heck, the same can be said for several parts of the British Isles!

> story is false.  It would have been an ideal place to grab names
> that sounded quaint, shirish, and mutually consistent.  Had the
> story been about Massachusetts, say, I would have automatically
> gone along with the "obvious" rejections.  But West Virginia?
> That gives the story a sophisticated touch.

Of course it's obvious its false.  Only if you have a blinkered
american perspective could you think that it might have a measure of
truth..  Ever read Dickens? Now there are some Names. If he could
come up with something like Chuzzlewite without the aid of a foreign
phone book, was Tolkien's task that difficult.

Ofcourse, there is a faint possibility that that's where he got his
names from, assuming there were such things as telephones in the
appropriate area of WV and phone books to go with them, since
anything is possible, but let's be realistic and give Tolkien a
little credit for having a sparkling imagination.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 21:10:53 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

I can't comment on this specific point, but I do know that the
Dwarvish names are taken directly from northern European mythology.
(Sorry, I don't remember specifically where.)

Did he make up the Elvish names, or are they taken from somewhere,
too?

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 05:17:35 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said that he
>had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real people.
>Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina telephone book.
>Can anyone confirm this rumor?

It seems unlikely, as he was surprised to get a letter from a real
Sam Gamgeee.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #333
Date: 22 Jul 87 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #333
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 87 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #333
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Jul 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 333

Today's Topics:

            Books - Bradley & Brin & Heinlein & LeGuin &
                    Norton & Smeds (4 msgs) & 
                    Vernor Vinge (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 87 11:54:22 -0100
From: Jeff Dalton <jeff%aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk@Cs.Ucl.AC.UK>
Subject: Author Politics (MZB)

Before anyone accuses me to the contrary, I don't believe in reading
only books by "politically correct" authors, nor do I claim that an
author's true opinions can be determined merely by a superficial
analysis of their fiction; but I do think that it is legitimate,
useful, and interesting to discuss the political position that
informs works of fiction, and I am tired of reading again and again
the same trite arguments used to belittle such criticism.  For
example:

From: darcic@midas.tek.com (darci chapman)
>> I used to enjoy her Darkover series; and I tried to read it again
>> after finding out her (macro)politics. Things that bothered me
>> were 1)the emphasis on inheritance in the Darkover series [...]
>
> Regardless, it seems to me that this is the same problem over and
> over again.  Just because an author sets up their world a certain
> way or explores certain ideas, does NOT mean they themselves
> believe that that's the way the world should be.

Well, *this* isn't the same problem, because this critic is talking
about things he or she noticed *in the fiction* after discovering
some of the author's real-world views.  Just because the author's
actual views support a particular interpretation of their fiction
doesn't mean that interpretation is incorrect.

> To quote Bradley directly from _Free Amazons of Darkover_,
> "...Well, it seemed a good idea at the time; Darkover is at most a
> thought experiment

How could it not be at most a thought experiment -- I didn't think
she'd actually gone out and colonized another planet.  But what does
that have to do with whether or not Bradley approves of the society?
And surely it's fair to note that Bradley picked this particular
thought experiment and not another.

Of course we never know what someone really thinks from reading
their fiction.  But then we never know for sure what they think even
if they come right out and tell us.  (They might deliberately
deceive us or say the wrong thing by mistake.)  This doesn't mean we
can't criticize what they say, or what they write as fiction.

When someone claims something about an author's political views
merely on the basis of their fiction, just read it as a claim about
the politics of the fiction itself plus a (trivial) claim that the
author writes such stuff.  That is, when someone says "X writes
facist [or insert your favorite political evil] propaganda because X
is a facist", it's just misdirection, to avoid the question of
whether or not the stuff is facist propaganda, to say "well, X could
write facist propaganda even if X weren't a facist."

Of course, people should avoid making claims about the author that
they can't really back up.  But in most such cases, the person is
also saying something about the fiction -- and that can't be
rejected just because they mistakenly thought it was about the
author.

However, in some cases we have more than the fiction to go on.  And
this is so in the very case that Darci attacks:

>> Now these things I hadn't noticed before knowing her stance on
>> Vietnam.  But to me there definitely does seem to be an
>> unpleasant undercurrent.

Now, I don't know about this particular criticism of Bradley's
politics, but there's at least one case where Bradley admits a link
between her own views and what she put in a novel.  In Darkover
Landfall, a woman (the proto-Cassilda, perhaps -- I forget) is more
or less forced to bear a child against her will.  Not surprisingly,
Bradley got some flack for this, and she offers a defense of sorts
in the introduction to some novel or other (Darkover Landfall?).
And it seems that in Bradley's universe, not just the Darkover one,
women don't really not want to bear children, they just think they
don't.  To those who reject this view, she suggests that they talk
to her again after they've found a vegetarian lion.  Now there's an
argument for you.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 12:57:23 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: The Uplift War

I just finished TUW, and I was wondering when we find out what the
dolphins found. Is it in an upcoming book, or was it in Startide
Rising?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 09:46:16 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: HEINLEIN - # OF THE BEAST

neil@ers.UUCP (neil) writes:
>gouvea@huma1.HARVARD.EDU (Fernando Gouvea) writes:
>> In some sense, I'm we're both talking about the same thing, but
>> reacting differently to it.  To my mind, making the attempt to
>> write a novel that consciously violates all the requirements of
>> plot consistency and resolution that are usual in sf *is* taking a
>> pretty big risk.  TCWWTW is certainly such: given his theme of
>> multi-person solipsism, there's really no reason to resolve the
>> plot, which is, after all, just the whim of some writer out there.
>> I don't think that comes across clearly enough (it's even less
>> clear in the conclusion of TNOTB), but I do think it's a conscious
>> decision on Heinlein's part.
>Well I don't think it's a conscious decision, or if it is, I
>suggest it's more motivated by laziness and monetary reward. Since
>The Cat begins with a very definite plot why does it degenerate? If
>we have this solipsism, why does it not start at the beginning,
>rather than half way through.  What is he trying to say? And how
>does this way of saying it enhance the message/experience? What are
>we meant to feel, see and how does this enrich us?
>
>In short, if you think it is a matter of conscious technique, prove
>it!

I haven't read the Cat Who Walks Through Walls, so I can't comment
on it specifically, but you might consider a few thoughts.  Firstly,
why didn't Heinlein resolve the plot?  It would have been easy
enough.  After all, Heinlein is a professional writer after all, and
has been writing for years, it would have been no problem for
Heinlein to have thought up an ending that would have satisfied you.
The characters, and situations aren't real, they are purely fictions
created whole cloth out of the head of one R.A.  Heinlein, who is
free to do what he likes with them.  The fact that when you read a
work of fiction, you pretend that they are real people with free
will and the possibility of choosing their own actions doesn't
change this.

In other words, Heinlein could have his characters do whatever he
wanted them to.  Not only that, he would have ruffled a lot less
feathers if he had them act in a way that tied up all the plot
elements in a rational manner.

But he didn't.  Why?

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 18:57:56 GMT
From: seismo!mnetor!alberta!sask!zaphod!andrew@RUTGERS.EDU (Andrew
From: Kostiuk)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book.

The third book in the _Wizard of Earthsea_ trilogy by U.K. LeGuin is
called _The Farthest Shore_.  As opposed to a previous opinion
expressed on the net, I found the third book at least as good as the
first two and in some ways, the most impacting.  The bottom line is
you should read it for yourself and decide.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 23:28:08 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton: Witch World query

John Wenn writes:
>       Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] (with A. C. Crispin)

Does anyone know who A. C. Crispin is?  Norton's books are good but
she is generally weak in dialog.  _Gryphon's Eyrie_ had acceptable
dialog without sacrificing Norton's strengths.  I think it's one of
the best she's ever done.

>The books are essentially independent with a few exceptions ("The
>Year of the Unicorn -> The Jargoon Pard" and "The Crystal Gryphon
>-> The Gryphon in Glory -> Gryphon's Eyrie").

I would suggest reading all five of the above in order since the
main characters in the first two are minor characters in the last
three.  However, it's possible to read almost any Norton book
without reading any others since she does a good job of keeping them
independent.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 17:10:12 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Dave Smeds

>> Now, if we can only get the second Smeds book moved forward.
>hmmm.  Seems that an afterthought is hardly the place to do Smeds
>justice.  Not that I'm really criticizing Chuq, but I can't recall
>ever seeing _The Sorcery Within_ mentioned at all in this forum.  I
>first came across it some 10 months ago (I think...) and found it a
>very hot read.

The Sorcery Within was reviewed in OtherRealms #6, as a matter of
fact, and also made my Recommended list for 1986. With the exception
of another stupid cover by Kevin (I don't read 'em, I just paint
'em) Johnson, it was one of the best first novels I read in 1986,
more or less sold out the first printing, and got dropped on the
floor when Ace decided to not reprint it.

>OK, '...the second Smeds book...', what more can you tell us, Chuq?

The book is currently scheduled for the Fall 1989 list. It is the
sequel to The Sorcery Within, and I'll be damned if I can remember
the title right now. Ace lost at least five copies of the manuscript
before finally accepting it, sat on it for a while, and finally
scheduled it for the longest possible delay they could without
having the rights revert.

Because Ace (Berkley, really, since Ace was (and is no more) simply
an imprint) didn't reprint Sorcery and hosed out the second book
(which, being the second book of a series, Smeds could really sell
nowhere else until the first book reverts in a few years) Dave's had
to take a mundane job and can't write full time. Which is a pity --
because a publisher screwed him over, one of the best new writers on
the scene son't be seen again until the turn of the decade.  I get
the feeling Berkley doesn't appreciate Dave's potential.  I hope he
finds a publisher that does.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 20:51:37 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Dave Smeds

What raises Smeds above the crowd of hack fantasy writers?  It's not
enough to just say "I thought it was great"; that doesn't help
anyone make a choice or deepen their understanding.  I met Smeds
last year, and he seemed very embarrassed by the plot of his book
when he tried to explain it, which I took as a bad sign.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 23:45:41 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Dave Smeds

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>What raises Smeds above the crowd of hack fantasy writers?

Nothing, probably, except that his first book is a lot better than
many of the hack's current works, and he shows the potential to be a
much better writer.

>It's not enough to just say "I thought it was great"; that doesn't
>help anyone make a choice or deepen their understanding.

I disagree here.  It helps someone find a book they likely would
otherwise miss. They can then decide whether ot not they were led
astray.

>I met Smeds last year, and he seemed very embarrassed by the plot
>of his book when he tried to explain it, which I took as a bad
>sign.

I've met Dave a number of times.  He's quiet, somewhat introverted
and not exactly forceful in promoting his book.  I know he's
embarassed by the cover (rightfully so, it's another Kevin Johnson
wonder) but not by his writing.  I think it is much more likely that
you're either reading that into his personality or that you might
just have intimidated him a bit.  Either way, I know from talking to
him at the last few cons that he definitely isn't embarassed about
his work, and has no reason to be.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 07:14:39 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Dave Smeds

Me, intimidate someone?  Surely not!

No, perhaps, that is the case, or maybe it was just a bad day for
him.  In any case, I'd still like to hear some more specific reasons
why he is better than usual.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 14:52:28 GMT
From: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu (The Cute Cuddle Creature)
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime

page@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Bob Page) writes:
>>Anyway, it's by Vernor Vinge
>I assume it's the sequel to _The Peace War_ ?  It was not mentioned
>in the original "mini-review" but talk of bobbles and 'the peace'
>sort of pointed that way...

Not really; _MiR_ is set in the same 'universe', but much later.  It
stands almost entirely on its own; it's probably a good idea to read
_TPW_ first, since the technology and history in _MiR_ is based on
that in _TPW_, but it isn't necessary.

I think the biggest dependency is that the main character in _MiR_
is named after a character in _TPW_.  No relation, though.  Well,
one other 'biggie', about the same importance, but I think I'll let
you find out for yourself!  (Actually, neither of these is explained
in the text, so a 'new' reader might miss some stuff.)

Incidentally, _MiR_ was serialized in _IASFM_ a while ago.  I think
it was last summer.  Umm.  Yeah, it was.  Three issues, or maybe
four.  Pretty good, too; it was very frustrating to wait for a month
to find out what happened next!

Michael Justice
BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
ARPA:   boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
UUCP:  ....!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb.bu.edu!boreas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 87 15:26:32 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime
To: "PAGE@ULOWELL.CS.ULOWELL.EDU"@AI.AI.MIT.EDU

From: page@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Bob Page)
> I assume it's the sequel to _The Peace War_ ?

Right.  Best SF book I have read all year.  There is supposedly a
short story called _The Ungoverned_ which comes between them, but I
haven't been able to find it anywhere.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 16:30 EDT
From: Johanna Rothman <JR@yukon.scrc.symbolics.com>
Subject: Marooned in RealTime by Vinge
To: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU

From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
>I finally got to read it.
>
>Personally, I think this is the best book I've read in a few years.
>Easily rated ****+, maybe even *****.  The technological
>speculation is fascinating, and handled well, so it doesn't become
>a space opera, or a ridiculous mish-mash (even if you disagree with
>it, as I do).  And anybody who can read the scenes detailing the
>diary left by the person marooned, or the interview with Tunc
>Blumenthal and remain unmoved has all the empathy of a stone.

I agree completely!  I read the book on a long plane trip yesterday,
and would recommend it to anyone, just because it's a Good Read.  If
you know people who like mysteries, who claim not to like s-f, they
may very well like this.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 05:06:52 GMT
From: umnd-cs!umnstat!roy@RUTGERS.EDU (Roy T. St. Laurent)
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime

boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (The Cute Cuddle Creature) writes:
> Incidentally, _MiR_ was serialized in _IASFM_ a while ago.  I
> think it was last summer.  Umm.  Yeah, it was.  Three issues, or
> maybe four.  Pretty good, too; it was very frustrating to wait for
> a month to find out what happened next!

It was serialized in ANALOG, not IASFM.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #334
Date: 22 Jul 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #334
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jul 87 0904-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #334
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Jul 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 334

Today's Topics:

      Books -  Recommendations (4 msgs) & Beginners in Magic &
               Thieves' World & Book Comments (2 msgs) & 
               Upcoming Releases & Women in SF & 
               Politics in SF (2 msgs) & 
               Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) & 
               Animals in SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 16:40:52 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations?

From: Matt Kimmel <KIMMEL%ecs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science fiction?

There's also a collection by Phillip Jose Farmer called "World of
Tiers" and if you're into Dungeons and Dragons, I highly recommend
Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame."  I also enjoy the
Thieve's World collections by Robert Aspirin and Lynn Abbey.  There
are about 8 collections and a couple of related full-length novels.

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Jul 87 12:42 EDT
From: <RMALOUF%SBCCMAIL.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Rob Malouf)
Subject: Good fantasy

KIMMEL@ecs.umass.edu writes:
>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science
>fiction?  I feel as if I've read every fantasy book that's worth
>reading.  I've already read the Belgariad, Lord of the Rings, most
>stuff by Piers Anthony, the Stainless Steel Rat series, and the
>Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  Can anyone recommend something
>new for me to read?  Fantasy is preferred, but I'll read Science
>Fiction in a pinch.

I am in the middle of one of the best fantasy sagas I have ever read
-- The Riftwar Saga (by Raymond Feist).  There are four books:

   Magician: Appretice
   Magician: Master
   Silverthorn
   A Darkness at Sethanon

The first half of the first novel is not very original, but after
that, the story takes an fascinating twist.  There is something in
it for everyone: magic, elves (etc.), military campaigns, romance,
political intrigue, adventure on the high seas, and more!  Try it,
you'll like it.

Rob Malouf
Marine Sciences Research Center
State University of New York
Stony Brook, NY   11794-5000
RMALOUF@SBCCMAIL.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 87 20:37:54 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: recommendation

From: MORGAN%FM1%sc.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET
>Can anyone out there recommend some good fantasy or science
>fiction?  I feel as if I've read every fantasy book that's worth
>reading.

Hmmm...  Nice question.  Sort of like going into Baskin Robbins and
asking "What do you have that's good?".

However, I would like to take this opportunity to mention a book I
haven't seen mentioned yet, namely THE PRINCESS BRIDE (The Good
Parts Version) by an author whose last name is Goldman, I believe.
(I really am pretty bad with author names :-) ) A friend of mine
suggested I read it a couple of years ago, and I thoroughly enjoyed
it.

In an introduction, the author presents the book as excerpts from a
story which his father told him when he was very young.  It seems,
however, that the book as a whole is outrageously boring, and so the
author now presents the story as his father told it to him, with
sections left out and other sections embellished.  It is a classic
fantasy story with good heroes, evil villains, and (of course) a
beautiful princess.  Definitely, a good read.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 13:16:08 GMT
From: seismo!watmath!watcgl!lccarson@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: recommendation

In response to the poster who knew the name but not the author, I'm
certain we'll be flooded with responses like this:

The Princess Bride is a wonderful book which I wholeheartedly
recommend to all my friends. It was written by William Goldman of
Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid fame, and the movie (with Andre the
Giant and Carol Kane, amongst others) should be coming out soon.

Seriously, I can't think of another book I am so happy to recommend
to people, without hesitation about their individual tastes. I have
been known to sit people down and read them the first twenty or
thirty pages just to be sure it had their full attention!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 87 12:38:30 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Beginners in magic

From: seismo!ubc-vision!fornax!zeke@RUTGERS.EDU (Zeke Hoskin)
>Other books I like dealing with a beginner discovering etc:
>  Fritz Leiber:Conjure Wife
>  Christopher Stasheff:Her Majesty's Wizard
>  Piers Anthony:the Adept series(Split Infinity/Blue Adept/
>       Juxtaposition)

Add to these SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD, by Diane Duane.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 87 12:29:29 EDT
From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Thieves' World

Is anyone as disappointed in the _Thieves' World_ series as I?  It
seems like ever since _Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn_, the story
line has deteriorated from the intense story of life (and horrible
death) in Sanctuary to a reckless hodgepodge of author vs. author.

Is it so tough for these writers to produce interesting yet
integrated stories for this world?  It seems like each writer is
free to present whatever unlikely plot s/he wants as long as
"another writer's character is not killed or seriously harmed in any
way".  I remember reading that in one of the afterwords ;->

If you have the time (I don't, but I'm fairly sure my memory is
straight on this one), reread the series, and contrast the earlier
books, maybe up to the third book, with the rest.  Jot down a simple
summary of each story.  Keeping in mind that this _is_ _Thieves'
World_, how many stories have anything important to do with thieves?

A further experiment: Contrast the earlier magic system with the
later version.  It's as if magic has overwhelmed the "anus of the
empire" creating an _incredible_ power seat of wizards, witches and
dancer- eunuchs (sorry ;~<).

Can't say I blame the writers too much, as it should be the editor's
job to approve storylines/keep the origin in mind.

BTW -- Can anyone recommend TW 9?  I have shied away for this long,
but I will get it if anyone can suggest it.  Keep in mind that I am
thoroughly disappointed in PIFFLES, fish-eyed foreigners, and
Ischade/Niko stories.  However, I do like Shadowspawn, the artist
who can create things by painting them, and the Seer in the market
(names?).

Bruce W. Onder
WCUTECB@IUP.BITNET
Indiana University of Pennsylvania

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 07:01:01 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU (Jeffrey Horvath)
Subject: random books

  I just got a sizeable gift certificate for my birthday to a local
bookstore.  I felt rather obligated to use it quickly since the
person who gave it to me kept saying, "Well, when are you going to
buy the books?!?"  Anyway, the point is, I didn't have any
particular books in mind when I went there and didn't all of
eternity to browse and decide which of the multitude of books to
get, so I did one of those "Oh sure, this one looks pretty
good...eh, the cover's cool" jobs.  Anybody got any idea if the
books I picked are any good?

   _The Mote in God's Eye_,     Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
   _Arc of the Dream_,          A. A. Attanasio
   _The Hitchhiker's Guide to
        the Galaxy_,            Douglas Adams
   _A Darkness Upon the Ice_,   William R. Forstchen
   _Brain Wave_,                Poul Anderson
   The first three books of the Dragon Lance Chronicles

Any comments?

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 03:53:53 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: random books

ugjeffh@joey.UUCP (Jeffrey Horvath) writes:
>  I just got a sizeable gift certificate for my birthday to a local
>bookstore.  jobs.  Anybody got any idea if the books I picked are
>any good?
>   _The Mote in God's Eye_,    Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

My opinion on this book was: a slow start, a fascinating middle, but
a somewhat disappointing end. Its strongest point is that it gives a
very good view of how an alien mind might think.

>   _The Hitchhiker's Guide to
>       the Galaxy_,            Douglas Adams

This is a very funny book, to those who have a somewhat dry and
cynical sense of humor. In case you didn't know it is the first of a
4 book series; followups are: The Restaurant at the End of the
Universe (good humor, not quite as good as #1) Life, The Universe,
and Everything (just as good as original) So Long, and Thanks for
All the Fish (a complete waste of time) Note that those are only my
opinions in the ()'s; others may feel different.

I have not read any of the others listed.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 21:21:58 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: books in your future (Ace fall hardcovers)

Here are the upcoming Ace Hardcovers for Fall/Winter 1987:

Andre Norton: The Gate of the Cat, October. A Witch World Novel.

Spider Robinson: Time Pressure, October. Spider explores the
   universe's greatest mystery -- time travel.

   "If I didn't think it understated his achievment, I'd nominate
   Spider Robinson as the new Robert Heinlein" -- NY Times

   "I wouldn't" -- Chuq Von Rospach

Tim Powers: On Stranger Tides, November.  A "rousing" fantasy about
   Blackbeard and his crew of zombies.

Michael Moorcock: The City in the Autumn Stars, November. The sequel
   to The Warhound and the World's Pain.

Charles de Lint: Jack, the Giant Killer, November.  Second of the
   new Fairy Tales series -- contemporary retellings of classic
   folktales.  de Lint is GOOD, this should be interesting.

(I don't make up the publicity blurbs. honest!)

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 06:31:19 GMT
From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Women in SF (really an informal/incomplete list)

One which has not thus far been mentioned is Linda Haldeman, who
unfortunately has trouble staying in print.  _Esbae_ I particularly
recommend, if you can find it.  Not blazingly feminist.

I also notice that Ayn Rand missed the list.

C. Wingate

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 87 07:40:39 CDT
From: steve@ncsc.ARPA (Mahan)
Subject: Alternate democracies

In issue 330 Peter Trei requested works about alternate democracies.

First, Norman Spinrad wrote 'The Pink and Blue War' about a planet
with global on-line realtime citizen voting on crucial issues.

Second, there is an alternate-worlds novel set in Colorado where the
protagonist is transferred to an alternate earth.  In this world
money is still on the gold standard, phone systems are unregulated
(and competing), George Washington is regarded as a traitor, and
None Of The Above once won a presidential election.  Someone else
may be able to help with the title and author as I read this several
years ago and no longer have the book.

Steve Mahan
Naval Coastal Systems Center
steve@ncsc.arpa
904 234-4224

------------------------------

Date: Tue 21 Jul 87 11:18:20-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy

From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@cu20b.columbia.edu>
> I'm wondering if anyone could provide references to SF stories
>involving participatory democracy (as opposed to the
>'representative' form the (for example) US Government provides).
>The only one I can think of is a minor vignette in 'Exiles of the
>Heaven Belt' (one of the Vinges I think). I am particularly
>interested in the effects of modern, high-speed communications and
>computers on systems of government.

In Frank Herbert's _The Dosadi Experiment_ (a truly awful book), the
citizens of Dosadi have gone through a number of forms of
government.  One of them is something called the "demopol."
Apparently -- Herbert isn't too clear on this -- citizens can enter
their opinions into a sort of rolling poll, and governmental policy
is decided automatically on the basis of these polls. Herbert
describes it as the worst form of tyranny, but then has it replaced
by a despotic, power-hungry autocrat.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 20:17:52 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Codex Seraphinianus

Described as by "Luigi Serafini", but the Copyright is held by
France Maria Ricci.  This is not a review, but an opinion; and I
assume you know what this book is.

Well, I borrowed it from the local library.  The drawings are
interesting, but the "text" is, in my opinion, a fake.

(a) the page numbering scheme makes no sense

(b) I can't find any obvious regularities in the words.  I looked
    for inflection at the ends and in the middle of words, for
    special initial letters, and for prefixes.  (You know, the
    tricks Ventris applied to Linear B).  No luck.

(c) many sections of text seem to be repetitions of the same symbol
    groups, over and again, with trivial variations.  Nothing like
    a sentence structure.  Moreover, the "letter" distribution is
    not consistent between pages.  This is scribble, not script.

Does anyone have, or recall, any reason for believing the text IS
language, real or invented?

------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 Jul 87 16:24:10-PDT
From: Martin Feather <FEATHER@vaxa.isi.edu>
Subject: Codex Seraphinianus number system

I've been trying to decode the numbering in Luigi Serafini's Codex
Seraphinianus, and have a couple of questions that other decoders
might have answers to:

1) any ideas as to why the prefix switches from "|" to "V" from
number 56 to 57, and from "V|" to "<inverse-V>V" from number 77 to
78, and at similar 56+n*21 (4>=n>=0) boundaries?  After all, there
is no such switch from 14 to 15, or from 35 to 36, or from 161 to
162???  It is curious that this occurs at (some of the) multiples of
7 boundaries, while the number system is obviously base 21.

2) why is number 169 (=13 squared, curiously enough) represented so
inconsistently?! (Instead of being the expected
"||<symbol-for-1><symbol-for-1><symbol-for-1>|" it is
"||<symbol-for-2><symbol-for-0><symbol-for-3>|").  Following this,
the "usual" base-21 numbering continues, but is now thrown off by
one due to this glitch (and it doesn't seem to be a spurious page,
since the same effect occurs later in the book when the page
numbering has restarted from zero).

Martin S. Feather
feather@vaxa.isi.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jul 87 21:31:05 GMT
From: joanne@hpccc.hp.com (Joanne Hiratsuka)
Subject: Re: Simak's _City_ (was Re: Animals in SF)

Don't forget the Fuzzy series of H. Beam Piper... these are lovable
stories!

And I think Piers Anthony has a few novels that feature animals (I
forget the name of the one that has the telepathic snail, or
squirrel... Mute?).

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 17:13:18 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: Re: Animals in SF <Stephen R. Boyett, The Architect of
Subject: Sleep>

There's also

The "Fuzzy" books by H. Beam Piper and various others.

"Startide Rising" by David Brin -- which features a space team of
humans and dolphins.

and plenty of stories with alien races that could be called
"animals."

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 19:07:09 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
>anybody know of others?

Walter R. Brooks, _Freddy and the Men from Mars_ :-) (Actually, this
is more like SF in animal stories than the other way round)

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #335
Date: 23 Jul 87 0756-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #335
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 87 0756-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #335
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 335

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anvil (2 msgs) & Brin & Hubbard &
                     McCrumb (2 msgs) & Tepper (2 msgs) &
                     Wolfe & Politics in SF & Wetware &
                     Recommendations Wanted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87 12:54 EST
From: Mike Pagan <MPAGAN%rca.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Re: More on Anvil

   I am suprised nobody has mentioned _The Steel, The Mist, and The
Blazing Sun_.  This is the only novel I have ever seen by
Christopher Anvil, and it seems to have been forgotten by all you
(potential) Anvil fans.  It is a post-holocaust story (sort of)
about the struggle between a US and Soviet Union which have been
affected by the big smash in drastically different ways.  The dialog
switches back and forth between the Soviet and American leaders, the
former being a very interesting and novel extrapolation on the
present Soviet system.  The plot gets slow in places, and the
technical basis for the state of the world is very weak, but it's
still a good read.

Mike Pagan
MPAGAN@rca.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 06:20:05 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Christopher Anvil

Ted Nolan Writes:
>     Christopher Anvil is a writer who has been around a long time
>without ever quite hitting the big time.  You can find a lot of his
>stories in old _Analog_s.  His most famous (and best) book is
>probably _Pandora's Planet_, a funny book about a rather slow alien
>race's first contact with humans.  (This book was expanded from a
>novellette).  He has written at least two other books, whose titles
>I have forgotten.

So far I have been able to find 4 books by Anvil, all of them good.

Pandora's Planet
   someone once told me that there's a sequel to this one, but I
   haven't been able to find it.

The Steel, the Mist, and the Blazing Sun
   Probably the weekest of the bunch, some references in it made me
   feel that it was a sequel to another book.

Strangers in Paradise
   Somewhat disjointed, it gave me the impression it had been
   published as a series of short stories.

Warlord's World
   Sequel to _Strangers in Paradise_ but not as disjointed.

Does anyone know of any others?

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 12:31:42 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: uplift war

>... [T]here are many other minor problems with these books.  I'll
>detail them if you want, but they don't seem to detract too much
>from the main story.

(It seems to me that I found more inconsistancies than these the
first time I read them, but on rereading them carefully I found
several were resolved.)

Bob Myers already gave a quote from Startide rising which
contradicted the prohibition against uplifting Gorillas but no
apparent prohibition against uplifting others (Kiqui).

There also is a major contradiction in _Startide Rising_ about what
the status of chimps and dolphins actually was.  There were several
references to humans having "freed" these two species but yet were
still performing uplift on them.  If they were freed, then the
humans would have no right to modify their genes.  This was
contradicted in _The Uplift War_ where it was revealed that chimps
and dolphins had only been raised to stage 2.  (The reason for
humans "freeing" their clients was to prevent another race from
getting 3 clients at once if humans were ever converted to client
status.  This didn't make sense.  If humans had been made clients,
no legal technicality would ever have stopped other races from
acquiring chimps and dolphins as clients.)

The Galactics seem to have some kind of mental block about the
Progenitors.  None of them seem to care where the Progenitors came
from but they all are fascinated by where they went.  Maybe this
could be explained by a basic difference in psychology but it
doesn't seem likely.  After all, they have no problem trying to
figure out where humans came from (i.e.  who were the missing
patrons of humans.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 22:28:06 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: MISSION EARTH

Has anyone else been keeping up with the Mission: Earth series by
the late L. Ron Hubbard?  I just bought book 7 ("Voyage of
Vengeance) when I found book 8 in the local book store.  (I figure
this way I won't miss any to the hundreds of other avid readers :-)
Just wondering... I mean somebody else has to be reading the things.

John.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 12:20:23 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN

             BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN by Sharyn McCrumb
                Windwalker, 1987, ISBN 0-88038-455-7
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     I'm not sure who Sharyn McCrumb is, but I'd bet you'd find her
name on the membership lists of several science fiction conventions.
BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN is a novel set in a real fantasy world--that
of a science fiction convention.  (Lately, it may seem more horror
than fantasy, but that's another story.  Appin Dungannon, the Guest
of Honor of this particular convention, is the author of the
incredibly successful series of Tratyn Runewind books.  He is
described as a "malignant midget," but McCrumb--in what must be a
ploy to fend off a Harlan Ellison lawsuit--makes sure to mention
that he is NOT Harlan Ellison.  Dungannon apparently has all the bad
characteristics of Ellison without any of the literary talent, since
Tratyn Runewind does not seem to be a character on the level of,
say, Hamlet.  Therefore, it is not much of a surprise when Dungannon
is found murdered in his hotel room.  It's not even much of a loss
so far as most of the people are concerned.  But the police think it
would be nice to find the killer.

     But why BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN?  Well, the protagonist of the
story is Dr. James Owen Mega, a.k.a. Jay Omega, author of the recent
not-best-selling science fiction novel...BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN.
The book, he claims, is based on a new scientific theory he was
working on; the title were dumped on him by the publisher.  Mega is
especially outraged at the cover, showing a "female bodybuilder in a
fur bikini."  Just as BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN is the title of both
this book and the book-within-the-book, the cover of this book is
very similar to the one described.  In the true tradition of cover
art, though, the cover of this book differs in several details from
that described for the book-within-the-book.  Perhaps this is a
meta-statement on how cover art is often inaccurate, but I doubt it.

     Anyway, McCrumb has the characters, and I do mean characters,
that one meets at a science fiction convention down cold.  The
costume fans, the gaming fans, the outsiders who have discovered
that science fiction fandom will ignore many things the mundane
world places great importance on-- height, weight, appearance, the
ability to "fit in"--they're all here.  McCrumb may seem at times
cruel to those whom she is portraying, but it is more a question of
accuracy than of hostility.  One brief example: when it is finally
announced to the convention members that Dungannon has been
murdered, the audience at first doesn't know what to make of it.
Then,

     Suddenly a clarion voice rang out like a battle cry above the
     babble. "The hucksters' room!  While we still can!"

     ... "The huckster's room?" she echoed.  What does that have
     to do with Appin Dungannon's being murdered?"

     ... "Not a thing," he replied.  "But life goes on.  And now
     autographed copies of Appin Dungannon's books are worth
     triple what they were five minutes ago."

     While this is not a book from which a non-convention-goer could
learn about conventions, it is a book that convention-goers will
love.  Highly recommended.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 02:42:29 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN

I second the recommendation for "Bimbos of the Death Sun", but I
have a few things to add.

First, the book is tragically flawed as far as plot goes.  The
denouement is a totally idiotic AD&D game which bored both the part
of me that used to play D&D and the part which now hates the game.
It appears that this scene was put in either at the demand of TSR or
with hopes of currying TSR's favor.  A book that ends this poorly
cannot be considered a winner overall.

Second, if you want to know why I don't ever go to science fiction
conventions, just read this book.  Yes, you *can* learn what a
convention is like if you haven't been to one from this book,
despite the claims of my fannish colleague.  You will save yourself
much money and embarrassment if you simply read this book and
resolve never to voluntarily encounter any similar situations.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87 17:20 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: sheri tepper

I am also a Sheri Tepper fan...in fact there are a few of us around
here.  I did a mean thing last year...gave somebody King's Blood
Four and Necromancer Nine, but none of the others, just before they
went to China.  :)

I didn't know that Southshore was out.  I just read Northshore.  It
reminded me of Revenants.

Bron Nelson writes:
>...not enough thought was given to The True Game idea - what were
>the rules?  Why did people ever follow the rules?  Why didn't
>people break the rules a lot sooner?

Actually, I liked this.  I found that I also wanted to know more
about the rules, but I think I preferred trying to figure them out
from what information was given, rather than just reading an
omniscient-narrator description of them.

Anyway, it's a great series for someone who's looking for new reads
and would like a nice big series to sink their teeth into....BUT, I
found that it did not give me the chained-to-the-trilogy feeling I
got with some other series.  I read them completely out of order,
starting with Wizard's Eleven and one of the Mavin books, and didn't
even get to Necromancer Nine until practically last, and I think
that most of these books would stand very nicely on their own EXCEPT
for the last two Jinian books.  These two are where most of the
various skeins that have been developing in the other books are tied
together, so you would probably be pretty well lost if you read
these without reading any of the others.

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 05:37:08 GMT
From: ames!styx!ohlone!nelson@RUTGERS.EDU (Bron Nelson)
Subject: Re: sheri tepper

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
>>...not enough thought was given to The True Game idea - what were
>>the rules?  Why did people ever follow the rules?  Why didn't
>>people break the rules a lot sooner?
>
> Actually, I liked this.  I found that I also wanted to know more
> about the rules, but I think I preferred trying to figure them out
> from what information was given, rather than just reading an
> omniscient-narrator description of them.

I agree as far as this goes; it's nicer to just hint at the rules
and make the reader think.  The trouble is, (having read just the
"numbered" books), I am left with the strong impression that TEPPER
didn't think out the rules or rationale or origins of the True Game
enough.

Bron Nelson
{ihnp4, lll-lcc}!ohlone!nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 87 03:02:26 MDT
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: upcoming novels from Gene Wolfe

From the Readercon program book (notes by Wolfe):

   EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWER: The story of the green and yellow
   empires mentioned by Severian.  It concerns a child who is taken
   in tow by the wizard Thyme and shown something of war and the
   destiny of man.  To be published by Cheap Street, late June or
   early July 1987.  [A pamphlet?  -- DMS]

   THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN: Coda to THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.  To
   appear in hardcover from Tor, Fall 1987.

   THERE ARE DOORS: A contemporary fantasy about a department store
   clerk who falls in love with a goddess from an alternate universe
   and finds himself drawn into that universe, where the goddess
   manifests herself as a lawyer, a movie star, and a high-tech
   doll.  To appear in hardcover from Tor, Fall 1988.

   SOLDIER OF ARETE: Sequel to SOLDIER OF THE MIST.  To appear in
   hardcover from Tor, Fall 1989.

   CASTLEVIEW: The villainness is Morgan Le Fay, and the hero is a
   Lincoln Mercury dealer.  In progress; unsold.

I got the impression that THERE ARE DOORS is already written, but
SOLDIER OF ARETE hasn't been started yet.  Are we really going to
have to wait over a year to see DOORS in hardcover?

Wolfe has certainly become more prolific since he started writing
full-time,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: Thu 23 Jul 87 04:24:47-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: re: Alternate Democracies

Not exactly fiction, one strange, little known book about an
alternative form of democracy is "The Velvet MonkeyWrench" by John
Muir (the fellow who wrote a popular VW repair book in the '60s).
VMW is a serious proposal for transforming our society into a
"utopia" that uses automation heavily to be more just, ecological,
etc.

It's too complex to go into all the details here, but the basic idea
for the political system is small communities ("neighborhoods") who
select representatives to "councils" (each containing about 200
neighborhood reps) which in turn send representatives to the central
government.  Information on proposed laws flows through all these
representative to the people, who in turn vote directly
(electronically) on whatever interests them.

The judicial system is based on arbitration and sophisticated lie
detectors.  Money becomes electronic "credits".  A fascinating book
for anyone interested in alternatives.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1987  09:53 EDT
From: ELIZABETH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU
Subject: What the pros mean when they say "Wetware"

Interestingly, I was recently asked for a succinct definition of
wetware and extracted the following from members of our research
group in an informal poll.

"What do you mean when you say `wetware'?"

"Biological hardware.  The brain, for example."

"Anything related to neuronal nets or structures which participate
in the processing of information in an organism."

Wetware is *not* the "software" which runs on the "hardware" of the
organism; it *is* the "hardware" itself.  I don't know of a good
catchy name for organic "software."  Perhaps "thoughtware," although
that would be deceptively specific.

Elizabeth Willey
Center for Biological Information Processing
M. I. T.

------------------------------

Date: WED JUL 22, 1987 14.57.04 EDT
From: "Christopher D. Orr" <CDO1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Recommendations Wanted

I'm looking for some advice on what books are good to read.  I'm
really just a beginner in the SF world and I have read some books
that I really liked and then others that were kind of okay.  The
ones I REALLY loved were The StainLess Steel Rat books, The Warlock
in Spite of Himself books, StarWolf, Douglas Adam's Trilogy (all
four books), and some others.

Could somebody recommend other books/authors that write books like
these books: action, fastmoving, etc.  Thanks everybody!

Christopher Orr

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #336
Date: 23 Jul 87 0803-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #336
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 87 0803-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #336
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 336

Today's Topics:

             Television - UFO & The Prisoner (2 msgs) &
                          Space Cops (5 msgs) & 
                          Doctor Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 87 16:53:04 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: UFO TV Series Fan Club Info

A few weeks ago someone posted an address for a fan club dedicated
to the "UFO" TV series that was shown in the 1970's and was produced
by Gerry Anderson.

Gerry Anderson also produced, among other things, Space:1999,
Thunderbirds, and Fireball XL5.

I wrote to the address, included a SSAE, and received a one-page
information sheet about the club.

In the interest if promoting more Gerry Anderson discussions on the
net, I'm reproducing the information here.


                             S.H.A.D.O.
          Supreme Headquarters Alien Defense Organization
                      U.S. East Coast Control

Dear Fellow U.F.O. Fan,

   Thank you for your query about information pertaining to the
U.F.O. appreciation group "S.H.A.D.O. -U.S.E.C.C."

Many of you who are reading this were, at one time, members of this
group in the past and realise that I had to disband it in 1984 due
to a shortage of members.  Well now, due to a mention of the group
in the publication VIDEO REVIEW I have received a number of queries
about the series and the club as well.

The group was slated to have its revival a month or so ago, but at
that time only nine or so past members plus a couple of newer faces
expressed any interest in it at all.  I need at least twenty (20)
members to get the club off the ground again and was hoping that if
I held on for just a little while longer, more members would express
interest.

For those of you who do not know this, the club, once it gets
rolling, will be issuing a regular quarterly newsletter, which will
contain photos from the series, as well as art submitted by members,
and articles and occasional information (from the regulars
themselves, such as Ed Bishop and Gabrielle Drake themselves!).
Also a free classified section to correspond with each other, or to
find that special item(s) you're looking for, be it a model of
Skydiver or perhaps a videotaped episode from the series.

Also included is a set of four color slides from the show, a mixed
offering of hardware and cast; A membership card is included as well
as the annual publication, S.H.A.D.O. FILE, which includes in its
contents in-depth articles, fiction, photos, art, and more.

Contact for more information:
Jim Main,
125 Fort Hill St., # 3,
New Milford, Conn.
06776

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 87 17:59:54 PDT
From: Hibbert.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Niven reviews "The Prisoner"

The current issue (July) of "Reason" magazine has a review by Larry
Niven of the television series "The Prisoner".  Niven's bottom line
is that he liked the show, though he doesn't understand what it
represents or why it works.

Niven's review consists mostly a description of some of the surface
details of the show, giving a flavor of what it was about, and the
kinds of plots used to trick Number Six.  He goes into more detail
about the final two episodes in which Number Six appears to almost
takes control of the village.  Niven says that when he first started
writing about these pivotal episodes, he had trouble figuring out
which events were important: "I finally realized what I was doing.
I described everything because I couldn't condense.  You can't
condense what you don't fully understand."

A while ago there was a discussion of the series, and someone asked
whether there were any books written based on it.  Niven gives some
answers to these questions, which I will excerpt here.

"There were three spinoff 'Prisoner' novels.  I knew all three of
the authors, and what they did was surprising.

"Tom Disch usually writes of hapless, helpless protagonists, the
playthings of fate.  In the series, Number Six was usually a man of
action; but Disch broke him out in entirely passive fashion, letting
him crawl out under a makeshift turtle shell while the rover guards
bounced futilely around it.  Ultimately Disch left him running
loose.

"David MacDaniel was a happy, optimistic writer.  His worlds are
logical, the problems solvable: moderately 'hard' science fiction.
But at the end of his 'prisoner' novel, Number Six had been
recaptured--and even the author didn't know how.  (I asked.)

"Hank Stine's story was an exercise in solipsism.  The universe
would vanish if Number Six ever fully accepted that he had escaped
the Village"

Reason ("Free Minds and Free Markets") is a libertarian-oriented
magazine, which is sometimes available at really good magazine
racks.  (I was sometimes able to find it at the newsstand in Harvard
Square, and I think I've seen it in Printer's Ink in Palo Alto and
Mountain View and at Kepler's in Menlo Park.  These are really
top-notch magazine racks carrying hundreds of magazines.)
Subscriptions are available from Reason, Box 27977, San Diego, CA.

Chris
Hibbert.pa@Xerox.com
ucbvax!hplabs!parcvax!hibbert

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87 10:03:25 -0400
From: Mike Thome <mthome@vax.bbn.com>
Subject: "Missing" Prisoner episode

   Woops!  I forgot to bring my catalog - I'm doing the following
from memory, so don't quote me...
   I recently received in the mail a catalog of books, music and
video tapes - you know the type of place... the home store is a
warehouse.  Anyway, I was looking through the video tape section,
and I came across the following (or something like it):
   "Alternative Chimes of Big Ben"
    Rare, never-aired episode of The Prisoner. A must for any
    Prisoner fan.  Explains the significance of the half-penny (?)
    bicycle. 55 min. VHS & BETA

   Questions: Although it isn't clear from the _text_ of the ad, the
name implies that this is a only slightly different version of
"Chimes of Big Ben"... is this the case?  Has anyone seen this?
What are the differences?  What IS the significance of the Bicycle?

Mike Thome
mthome@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 15:16:18 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Space Cops

For those of you who didn't see it, the first episode of the BBC's
new SF series "Star Cops", "An instinct for murder", was shown last
night (Monday 7th July) on BBC2.  It seems to be yet annother
attempt by the BBC to make an SF drama series.

The special effects are of the usual standard for this type of
programme. i.e. better than Dr. Who, but not much.  Space craft are
still making right angle turns, and people can change direction
while drifting weightless in space as if they were being pulled by
strings. :->

The collection of characters being assembled, and the detail with
which the future history seems to have been worked out, makes it a
promising series, if the BBC strike the right balance between taking
itself too seriously, and trivialising the whole series.

Most of the action in the first episode takes place in offices on
earth and on the European Space Lab.  The background information
published in TV times explains that the year is 2027. There are five
permanantly manned space stations orbiting the earth, a base on the
moon, and a colony on mars.

The inclusion of the black American refugee astronaut from NASA as
the first member of the team is obviously to provide some interest
for the TV stations in the USA, so the series will probably be
appearing there soon.

One odd feature about the first episode was the absence of any
mention of any sort of American space presence. Three of the space
stations are owned by Europe, Russia and a Pacific islands
co-operative, the owners of the others weren't mentioned. Moonbase
is commanded by a Russian. More Australians are seen than Americans.
I wonder if this is deliberate, or if I am just reading too much
into what is, after all, just the first episode.

If there is enough interest, I will post more on the series soon.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 11:37:12 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU (Jeffrey Horvath)
Subject: Space Cops inquiry

  This sounds like a fairly interesting series.  I hope it develops
into more.  If anyone has any info on when/if it will be aired in
the US, please let me know.  Thanks.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 16:43:55 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Re: Space Cops

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
> For those of you who didn't see it, the first episode of the BBC's
> new SF series "Star Cops", "An instinct for murder", was shown
> last night (Monday 7th July) on BBC2.  It seems to be yet annother
> attempt by the BBC to make an SF drama series.

Is this new series produced by Gerry Anderson (of Space:1999, UFO,
and Thunderbirds, etc)?

I heard he was working on a show called "Space Police" and wonder if
this new series is the same thing.

Thanks.

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 15:19:31 GMT
From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks)
Subject: Star Cops

Bob Neumann asks :
> Is this new series produced by Gerry Anderson (of Space:1999, UFO,
> and Thunderbirds, etc)?

No,it isn't. It's created/written by Chris Boucher, who has worked
on Dr.Who and Blake's 7, as well as detective series like Bergerac
and Shoestring.

The show may never get to the USA, last night's episode (the second)
was heavily political in its storyline, with spies, assassinations
and secret SDI satellites.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 12:16:58 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Star Cops

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>Has anyone in England taped Star Cops?  I'm interested in
>communicating with them.

Not here in Scotland anyway.

It wouldn't do you much good anyway, unless you have access to a 625
line European standard TV and VCR, or facilities to convert to the
American standard.

To answer various questions I have been asked about the series,

No, it has nothing to do with Gerry Anderson. The show is made by
the BBD drama dept. and is aimed at a more adult audience than the
other BBC SF series.  (Dr Who is made by the children's programmes
dept, and Blake's seven and Star Trek are regarded by the BBC as
programmes aimed at the 8-16 agegroup.)

It will be a brave TV station which buys the series for showing in
the US. The US space effort has only appeared in one episode. It is
shown as a mainly military operation, anthough there are a few
American based multinational companies active in space.

A quote from the second episode:
"Any attempt to approach <an unmanned civilian space
station> will be regarded as an act of war <against the US>"

The third episode was shown last night.

The titles so far are

1. An instinct for murder.
2. Conversations with the dead.
3. Dedicated listening for beginners.

I will keep a list of episodes and post when appropriate.

I would be interested in hearing the opinions of anyone in the UK
for the world SF conference in Brighton who saw the series.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  6 Jul 87  16:25:32 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu  (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

A few changes have happened in the 24th season of Doctor
Who(again!).  The first story title has been changed from STRANGE
MATTER(catchy!) to TIME AND THE RANI(boooooring). The third story
title has also been changed from DELTA AND BANNERMAN to FLIGHT OF
THE CHIMERONS. FLIGHT OF THE CHIMERONS will lead into the fourth
story DRAGONFIRE.

Here is a list of novelizations due out this year:
115     The Mind Robber              Peter Ling           out
116     The Faceless Ones            Terrance Dicks       out
117     The Space Museum             Glyn Jones           out
118     The Sensorites               Nigel Robinson       out
119     The Reign of Terror          Ian Marter           out
120     The Romans                   Donald Cotton        May
121     The Ambassadors of Death     Terrance Dicks       May
122     The Massacre                 John Lucarotti       June
123     The Macra Terror             Ian Stuart Black     July
124     The Rescue                   Ian Marter           August
125     Attack of the Cybermen       Paula Moore          September
126     The Time Meddler             Nigel Robinson       October
127     The Mysterious Planet        Terrance Dicks       November
128     Time & the Rani              Pip & Jane Baker     December
        K-9 & Company                Terence Dudley       October
        The Key To Time(paperback)   Peter Haining        October
        The Time Traveller's Guide   Peter Haining        September

A scholarship fund memoroalizing British actor Patrick Troughton has
been announced by California State University, Sacramento, and the
Sacramento Doctor Who fan club. Sacramentans Annett Laing and
Christy Keith co-chair of the national Patrick Troughton Apprciation
Society, and are members and former officers of the local Dr. Who
Fan Club. According to Laing, the groups wanted to do something
"uplifting and positive" to memorialize Troughton. It was decided
that a scholarship fund, to be awarded each year to a deserving CSUS
theater arts student, would be a fitting tribute.  Laing added that
Troughton's widow has given th scholarship her hearty endorsement.
Tax deductible checks, payable to the Patrick Troughon Memorial
Scholarship Fund, may be sent to Financial Aids Office, CSUS, 6000 J
Street, Sacramento, CA 95819. Contribuions may also be charged to
Visa or Mastrcard by phoning 916-278-6295 weekdays.

TWO MISSING EPISODES HAVE BEEN FOUND! Recently, a British fan turnd
in episode 3 of "The Faceless Ones" and episode 2 of "Evil of the
Daleks".  Also, episode 4 of "The Tenth Planet" is being tracked
down now on a good lead. Here are all the currently existing
epsiodes from the Patrick Trouhton years:

The Underwater Menace #3
The Moonbase #2,4
The Faceless Ones #1,3
Evil of the Daleks #2
The Abominable Snowmen #2
Enemy of the World #3
Web of Fear #1
Wheel in Space #3,6
The Dominators #1-5(complete)
The Mind Robber #1-5(complete)
The Invasion #2,3,5-8
The Krotons #1-4(complete)
The Seeds of Death #1-6(complete)
The Space Pirates #2
The War Games #1-10(complete)

As some of you may know, although many episodes were lost on video
tape, many still exist on audio tape, in suprisingly good quality.
The following 6 stories exist completely on audio tape:

Power of the Daleks
The Moonbase
Evil of the Daleks
The Web of Fear
Fury From the Deep
The Invasion

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 10:50:00 GMT
From: seasterb@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Colours for Daleks and Cybermen

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk writes:
> For Cybermen, the scheme is overall silver. Is there any variation
> to distinguish a Cyber Leader? Are there details I can paint on to
> make them look more interesting?

Black jug-handles on the head if I remember correctly (and its been
a long time!) Also I seem to remember seeing gold trimmings on the
chest.

Incidently, I've been following this discussion with interest, I was
an avid fan once, I began watching at the beginning of Jon Pertwee's
time, and stopped (regularly) watching near the end of Tom Baker,
for a number of reasons. For me, all the ensuing stuff that I've
seen never lived up it it. Did I change or did they? (I suspect I
did). Anyway can anyone tell me if these episodes are available on
video anywhere?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 14:29:47 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Colours for Daleks and Cybermen

seasterb@Cs.Ucl.ac.uk writes:
> Black jug-handles on the head if I remember correctly (and its
> been a long time!) Also I seem to remember seeing gold trimmings
> on the chest.

I remember darker "jug handles" on earlier Cybermen. What I forgot
to mention in my request is that the models depict the latest
version, as seen in the episode where Adric died. Did the leader of
this variant also have black ears?

Also, this type like using hand-held weapons in preference to the
helmet-mountedgun in previous types. Anyone have any good reasons? I
would have thought that the helmet-mounted gun is more accurate -
where you look, you shoot.

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #337
Date: 23 Jul 87 0817-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #337
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jul 87 0817-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #337
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 337

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 14:31:35 GMT
From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (59261-Mike King-x5693) writes:
>cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>>Someone please correct me if they have information to the
>>contrary, but in a class I once had on Tolkein/C.S. Lewis, my
>>professor said that he had read that Tolkein got all of the hobbit
>>names from real people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a
>>West Virgina telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?
>
>Your professor was obviously reading a humor magazine. :-) As for
>the West Virginia angle, I did hear that there was a clan of
>Tallfellows living outside of Wheeling, so they may have been in
>the Phone book. :-) In reality, Tolkein got all his names out of
>The Elder Edda, which is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I
>remember correctly).

Okay, I decided to check this thing out myself.  First let me
mention that the names I was referring to were the surnames of the
hobbits only!  What I did was to look up many of the names that were
mentioned in the section of the book about Bilbo's birthday party.
There are about 10 names listed.  I then looked around for a phone
book for W. Virgina, but I couldn't find one in our library, so I
had to use a book for "Northern Virgina".  Anyway, I did find many
of the hobbit names listed, including Proudfoot, Bolger, Chubb, and
Brockhouse.  Obviously, this doesn't prove anything significant, but
I thought I would mention it.

Christopher Maag
{seismo|nike|ucbvax|harvard|rutgers!ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!cmaag

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 14:44:26 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

neil@ers (neil) writes:
>>[about WV and hobbit names]
>Of course it's obvious its false.  Only if you have a blinkered
>american perspective could you think that it might have a measure
>of truth..

I certainly don't think the story is true!  I was just annoyed with
the several postings that took what I felt was a "West Virginia, uh
huck, what a hick backwater dweeb state, hahaha," attitude (and then
proceeded to uninformatively inform about the *dwarvish* names), my
point being that WV, precisely *because* of its hick backwater
dweebness actually gave the story some "sophistication", as I had
said.  That one bit surprised me to no end.

(It's like the "Weekly World News" story about a head transplant in
East Germany: it beats me what to make of it, but I noticed they got
the little detail about the patient being paralyzed right.)

>Ever read Dickens? Now there are some Names. If he could come up
>with something like Chuzzlewite without the aid of a foreign phone
>book, was Tolkien's task that difficult.

Of course!  But remember that Dickens' name-choosing skill is of an
entirely different flavor then Tolkien's.  Dickens' names
effortlessly and covertly help nail a person's character down for
you ("Gradgrind") without seeming the least bit phony, whereas
Tolkien's names sound like they are the genuine ordinary names
that belong to each subcommunity.  There's no way the former could
be worked out be flipping through the WV phone book.

>Ofcourse, there is a faint possibility that that's where he got his
>names from, assuming there were such things as telephones in the
>appropriate area of WV and phone books to go with them,

Yes, that is probably where the story falls flat on its face.  I
won't say so conclusively, since even were the story genuine, words
for ordinary objects change in meaning over the decades and the
pond, and I don't like making "obvious" conclusions based on second
hand accounts anyway.  Did the poster's professor actually say and
knowingly mean "phone book", as in "the white pages"?  Beats me.
(Thus, there have been examples posted to this group of how the
"pocket calculators" in many 50s stories were not a gifted prescient
reference to HPs but just a mundane reference to something that was
*called* a pocket calculator in those days.  Since my knowledge of
the history of telephones is mostly limited to "Watson, come here"
and the AT&T divestiture, you've got me as to whether or not the
phrase "phone book" had a different, if any, reference back then.)

>since anything is possible, but let's be realistic

I just suspect on general principles that if true something like
this WV story would have surfaced years ago.  *Internally*, I see
nothing out of the way, nothing "obviously" false about it.  This
may, even assuming that the story was quoted accurately, be solely
due to my ignorance about what the phrase "phone book" has meant
throughout this century, or something equally obscure.

Now, had someone told us that *Dickens* had gotten his names from a
WV phone book, you'd see my little pink tail do handstands
doubleplusquick!

>and give Tolkien a little credit for having a sparkling
>imagination.

Well of course, that's where I had *always* assumed his names came
from!  Then I read Lin Carter's book and learned about the "Elder
Edda", and was doubly astonished.  It has never occurred to me
before that Tolkien might have gotten the hobbit names from
somewhere--now I'm curious.

Furthermore, I consider Tolkien's ability to take existing
linguistic con- structs and weave them into his fiction just as
worthy of encomia as any other feature of Tolkien's art.  Your
average scholarly linguist would have failed miserably; his efforts
would stand out.  Like a sore thumb.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 20:33:31 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der Mouse) write:
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkein/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkein got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

   I saw a newspaper article several years ago that alluded to much
the same thing, only the state was Kentucky, rather than W.Va.,
which he had visited for a while.  Again though, I can't point to
any real proof other than a vague recollection and the fact that a
look through a rural Kentucky phone book will turn up a lot of names
familiar to LotR readers.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 20:44:23 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Tolkien's Names (Was:Re: Tolkien's diction

   To clear up a little confusion here, the names that supposedly
have an American origin are the Hobbit's family names; Baggins,
Stoat, Tooks and Brandybucks.  They are names still found in
Appalachia.  (Oh, and Proudfeet too.)  ( Oh, ok, Proudfoots :-)

   And of course he didn't get them out of a phone book, but they
can be found there now.  Then again, there was a Bilbo Baggins
listed in the Dallas phone book a few years ago, as well as a Ziggy
Stardust.  Aren't people amazing?

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 05:58:17 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4 (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>I then looked around for a phone book for W. Virgina, but I
>couldn't find one in our library, so I had to use a book for
>"Northern Virgina".  Anyway, I did find many of the hobbit names
>listed, including Proudfoot, Bolger, Chubb, and Brockhouse.
>Obviously, this doesn't prove anything significant, but I thought I
>would mention it.

You're right: it doesn't prove anything significant.  Most of the
hobbit names are in the San Francisco phone book, including one
"Frodo Baggins".  The only other SF "Baggins" is listed under
his/her first initial: "B".

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 06:49:57 GMT
From: nw@amdahl.amdahl.com (Neal Weidenhofer)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

gds@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner) writes:
> Better parallels of Tolkien to Christianity (in my opinion) are
> the story of the creation of Ea, particularly the Music of the
> Ainur, which is analogous to God's creation of the universe, after
> which the angels sang praises (paraphrased).

But so much more beautiful.  Just think about the allegory--the
music IS the universe.

Regards,
Neal Weidenhofer
...{hplabs|ihnp4|seismo|decwrl}!amdahl!nw
Amdahl Corporation
1250 E. Arques Ave. (M/S 316)
Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3470
(408)737-5007

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 16:49:45 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

I've always thought the Hobbit names sounded a bit Cornish myself or
maybe Welsh.  If those names can be found in West Virginia they
certainly can be found in the British Isles.  I know that most of
the names that Tolkien came up with were not made up, but borrowed
from somewhere (he freely confessed it).  The names from the hobbit
(including Bilbo and Gandalf) came from some obsure Scandinavian
manuscript and were names of dwarvish travellers (or something).

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Jul 87  23:34:09 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston)
Subject: Hobbit Names

Christopher N. Maag writes:
>...in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that...  Tolkien got all the hobbit names...from a West Virginia
>telephone book....

Meriadoc? Peregrine? Belladonna?  *Drogo*?  Seriously, West Virginia
is a poor state with a good many small and inbred towns, but such
names simply don't exist there except among aging Aquarians who gave
such names to their children (and there are damn few of those left);
I'm from Pittsburgh, the largest city near West Virginia, and West
Virginians give their children ordinary names like John and Mary.  I
don't know where your professor got his information, but I seriously
doubt that it's true.  Tolkien's letters, and Humphrey Carpenter's
biography, don't indicate that Tolkien even knew where West Virginia
was, let alone that he had access to a West Virginia telephone book
(you can't even get a Washington one in Oxford, at least when I was
there six years ago), and certainly give no reason why he would want
to use American names when he was perfectly capable of making up
names on his own.  Sorry, it's an entertaining story, but it
probably has as much truth to it as the rumor that Hitler is running
a rubber plantation in Brazil.

Besides, no self-respecting coalminer would name his son something
like "Gerontius" or "Bilbo" - life is hard enough in the coal fields
without giving a child a name that will lead to life-long
ridicule....

Lisa Evans
Malden, Massachusetts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87 12:49:11 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Tolkien Names & West Va. Phonebooks

Well, the discussion on the subject topic inspired me to do some
research.  I went to the St. Louis Public Library and looked at a
couple West Virginia phonebooks (Wheeling & environs and
Charleston-area), and also checked the St. Louis phone book as a
"control".  I just looked up the five names mentioned in a recent
posting as good hobbit names, and here's the results:

                        Phone Books Checked
NAME            Charleston      Wheeling        St. Louis

Baggins         No              No              Yes (see Note below)
                                (was a "Baginski")
Gamgee          No              No              No
                (was a "Gandee")
Proudfoot       Yes             No              No
Sackville       No              No              No
Took            No              No              Yes

So, based on this limited research, I would say it was unlikely that
these names are common enough in West Virginia to be found in a
phone book that somehow happened to wend its way to England and that
Tolkien may have run across. (Many people seem to imply that it
would be impossible for Tolkien to have ever seen a W. Va. phonebook
-- I can't agree with that. If the tale had been true, it would have
only taken ONE, after all, and many different scenarios could have
explained its appearance in Britain.)

And now for the Note referred to above. In the St. Louis phone book
there is a "Bilbo Baggins". Truth! Would I lie to you? He lives at
8364 Midland, and his phone number is (314) 423 3278. Now, this is
pretty obviously either a joke, or someone putting their phone in a
ficticious name, or some Tolkien-society-related thing. That address
is in or near a suburb here called "University City", by Washington
University. I wouldn't be surprised if this is some student playing
games. (The school is on USENET; maybe some Wash U student will see
this and know the story behind it and post the info...)

A last comment: I'm actually surprised that "Proudfoot" and
"Sackville" were not commonly-found names. It just may be that I had
heard them before in my own life and thought that they are commoner
than they really are. "Sackville", for example, is the transmitter
site for Radio Canada International, so I hear that word every week
when I listen to shortwave radio.

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 20:02:15 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Hobbit Names

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Meriadoc? Peregrine? Belladonna?  *Drogo*?  [...]  Besides, no
>self-respecting coalminer would name his son something like
>"Gerontius" or "Bilbo" - life is hard enough in the coal fields
>without giving a child a name that will lead to life-long
>ridicule....

I think Mr. Maag and the other posters on this subject were alluding
to the hobbit surnames.  The question of how Tolkien chose hobbit
first names is also interesting, but here I suspect he was working
without sources.  Certainly some of the names are jokes; Gerontius
mentioned above was the *Old* Took.  In a slightly cruder vein we
have Samwise (=halfwit) and Halfast.  As for the other names, I have
no idea.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 20:20:34 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Obscure Scandinavian manuscript

zonker@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Tom Harris) writes:
>The names from the hobbit (including Bilbo and Gandalf) came from
>some obsure [sic] Scandinavian manuscript and were names of
>dwarvish travellers (or something).

Not exactly the way I would describe The Elder Edda. It's a bit like
saying that Tom Harris lives in this here obscure country on the
other side of the Atlantic :-)

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #338
Date: 27 Jul 87 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #338
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jul 87 0838-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #338
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 338

Today's Topics:

          Books - Robert Adams & Anvil (2 msgs) & Asprin &
                  Bova & Crispin & Herbert & Leguin (4 msgs) &
                  McCaffrey & Schmitz & L. Neil Smith (2 msgs) &
                  A Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 87 13:25:40 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Robert Adams' BOOK OF ALTERNATE WORLDS

               Robert Adams' BOOK OF ALTERNATE WORLDS
            edited by Robert Adams, Martin H. Greenberg,
                       & Pamela Crippen Adams
                  Signet, 1987, ISBN 0-451-14894-0
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     When I first looked at the table of contents of this book, I
noticed that the stories were novelettes or even novellas rather
than the usual assortment of short stories.  And the editors have
managed to avoid the usual over-anthologized stories for some less
well-known ones.  In his brief introduction, Adams says the two are
connected: the better alternate-history stories run to longer
lengths and hence are usually left out of anthologies, whose goal
(it often seems) is to have the longest table of contents possible.
The nine stories included here average fifty pages in length.

     Murray Leinster's "The Other World" is the story of what might
happen if the ancient Egyptian magicians had found a way to travel
through portals to a parallel, uninhabited world and then sustain
themselves there by looting our own world.  It's old-fashioned
science fiction, and written with such vibrant images that I
couldn't help but think it would make a great movie.

     Subtitled "The Role of the Air Force Four-Door Hardtop," George
Alec Effinger's "Target: Berlin!" is typically bizarre Effinger,
applying what Darrell Schweitzer has called the "silly factor" in
alternate histories.  In this case, the silly factor seems to be
that in this alternate world, the aircraft of World War II were all
modified cars: the Americans flew Mustangs, the Germans flew
Volkswagens, and the Japanese flew Toyotas.  No, that not an
anachronism; World War II was delayed by agreement of all concerned
(maybe to give them time to develop cruise control?).  This may be
some people's cup of tea, but frankly it doesn't do it for me.

     Fritz Leiber's "Adept's Gambit" seems mostly a excuse to put
Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser into our own world.  After a few pages, I
decided I didn't care what world they were in, or what happened to
them.  H. Beam Piper's "Last Enemy" I had read before and found
fairly mundane then, so did not re-read and cannot comment in detail
on.

     L. Sprague de Camp's "Aristotle and the Gun" is "Alternate
History Plot #2A": man goes back in time and tries to change things
for the better; things don't work out the way he planned.  (For the
curious, Plot #1 is "things just happen to turn out differently,"
and Plot #2B is that "man goes back in time and tries to change
things for the better; things do work out the way he planned."  Plot
#2B makes for a fairly dull story and is not often used.)  Since de
Camp knows something about history--a requirement that many
alternate history authors seem to overlook--the story has a very
authentic feel to it and is one of the better ones in this
anthology.

     Larry Niven's "There's a Werewolf in My Time Machine" is one of
the many stories in which Svetz goes back in time to get some
historical animal and ends up picking up some fantastical parallel
in a parallel world instead.  His time machine, like Dr. Who's
Tardis, seems to have some sort of permanent glitch.

     Robert Silverberg's "Many Mansions" has so many parallel
threads that it's almost impossible to keep track of them all.
Silverberg even uses the old hackneyed Plot #2C: man goes back in
time, kills grandfather (either his own or someone else's, it
doesn't seem to matter), and things may or may not change.
Silverberg, as usual, makes even this old plot new.

     T. R. Fehrenbech's "Remember the Alamo!" is a combination of
Plot #1 and Plot #2B.  Normally, it would be a strong story, but it
has too much to compete with here.  It does have the advantage of
dealing with alternate American histories, while most authors in the
genre still seem to prefer fooling around with European history.

     Jerome Bixby's "One Way Street" is another common plot (okay,
Plot #3, if you want a number): man has an accident and finds
himself in a world similar to, but not exactly like, our own.  Bixby
is best known for his story "It's a GOOD Life," adapted for THE
TWILIGHT ZONE.  This story will remind the reader of another
TWILIGHT ZONE story, "The Parallel."

     Though not all the stories are great, the assortment provides
something for everyone and a good look at some of the better
alternate history stories that you may have missed until now.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 05:00:56 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!sdiris1!res@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert Sanders)
Subject: Re: Chris Anvil

From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
>Does anyone have pointers to any of Christopher Anvil's work?  I
>just read _The King's Legions_ in Asimov's SF series titled _Tin
>Stars_ and loved it.  Did he write more stories in this setting?

The sequel to _The King's Legions_ was _Warlord's World_, published
by Daw books.  It is a story about Captain Roberts and his crew as
they assist a Princess of Festhold who is in need of rescue, and is
of full novel length.  I liked it a lot, but your opinions and
milage may vary unpredictably...

(Incidentaly, we get to see more of the psychology of the
Interstellar Patrol Ships Symbiotic Computers, as exemplified by IPS
6 107 J, the J-Class Scout Roberts commands.

Skip Sanders
sdcsvax!ucsdhub!jack!man!sdiris1!res
Phone : 619-273-8725 (evenings)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 87 04:56:35 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Christopher Anvil

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Ted Nolan Writes:
>
>So far I have been able to find 4 books by Anvil, all of them good.
>
>The Steel, the Mist, and the Blazing Sun
>   Probably the weekest of the bunch, some references in it made me
>   feel that it was a sequel to another book.

 Very oddly, the first part of the story appeared in ANALOG as the
"novelette", "Ideology Counts", but was not included in the book--
any book. This introduced the main characters, established the
milieu of a Russian colonial empire, and deals with its expulsion
from America by the "O'Cracys". At the end, Arakal smirks to General
Brusilov "Ideology counts-- BUT IT USUALLY DOES THE COUNTING WITH A
SWORD".

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 14:57:47 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Robert Asprin

Ron Hall writes:
>Robert Asprin's "MYTH" series (6 at last count in ACE editions 8
>(I think) in oversized Bluebird editions)

Actually, I think only 7 are out, but as with Ron, this is strictly
an 'I think.'  The oversized editions are not, however, from
Bluebird Books, but rather from Starblaze.  These editions, if you
can find them, are extra-special because of the cover and internal
illustrations by Phil Foglio, a fun cartoonist by any account.

The MYTH books are (please suppress your groans):

   Another Fine Myth
   Myth-Conceptions
   Myth-Directions              {I'm not sure of the order
   Hit or Myth          of these two}
   Myth-ing Persons
   Little Myth Marker
   M.Y.T.H Inc. Link

By all means, read these if you want some fun, quick reading.

John

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 09:25:28 GMT
From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Fred Flintstone)
Subject: Alien life - Voyagers

Has anybody read Voyagers by Ben Bova ?

It's a story about what might happen when an alien space craft is
heading towards earth.

I thought it was alright, but the main reason I kept reading was
because I was waiting for the climax. It was not one of those books
that you just can't put down.

Any comments ?

Tony H.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 87 10:07 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: A. C. Crispin
Cc: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)

A.C. Crispin is one of the few authors to break into prodom with a
Star Trek novel, Yesterday's Son.  That made it big, and she then
did the novelization for V, (greatly improving on the mini-series)
coauthored an original V novel (V:The East Coast Crisis) with Howard
Weinstein, (another ST author), and Gryphon's Eyrie with Norton.  I
believe she has another ST novel, a sequel to Yesterday's Son,
that's somewhere in the process of being published.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 04:56:32 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy

CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>In Frank Herbert's _The Dosadi Experiment_ (a truly awful book),
>the citizens of Dosadi have gone through a number of forms of
>government.

He's not kidding this is a truly putrid book.  I thought that the
Dosadi were the Dorsai and on the basis of this didn't read any
Gordon Dickson until some were delivered to my sickbed.  Amazing.
Skip _The Dosadi Experiment_ unless you love the story of mindless
characters doing destructive mindless things for mindless
non-reasons...

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 05:45:00 GMT
From: hogge@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

Wait a moment, is there ANYONE living who actually likes the 2nd
book of the Earthsea trilogy?  I mean, it's worth the hour or two it
takes to read it for continuity purposes, but GEEZ it's slow.

John

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 13:26:05 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

hogge@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>Wait a moment, is there ANYONE living who actually likes the 2nd
>book of the Earthsea trilogy?  I mean, it's worth the hour or two
>it takes to read it for continuity purposes, but GEEZ it's slow.

Yes, I actually like The Tombs of Atuan, by Ursula K LeGuin, and I
was still living at the time of my last medical checkup.

It doesn't seem slow to me.  Admittedly, a lot of the events are
internal to Tenar/Arha, but they build up a picture of a way of life
in a careful and fascinating manner.  Also, I found it most
enlightening to read the "hero rescues magical item and gets girl"
story from the point of view of the "girl", with the "hero" as the
cardboard cutout this time.

On a deeper level, the book leans a lot on Jungian psychology, and
much of its effect is due to the interplay of symbols representing
various archetypes.  I'd be interested in a female SF reader's
viewpoint (hit, Ms Leeper), since the work reads to me as very
anti-feminist (woman should follow her animus and break away from
the sisterhood and the chthonic powers...).

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 20:58:23 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Book recommendations

A Wizard of Earthsea is a very good story about the growth of
understanding in a yound wizard and should be highly recommended.
The next book, The Tombs of Atuan, is even better, having to do with
both Ged, the wizard, and a young priestess, who goes through some
rather strange rituals.  The third book, however, the name of which
I cannot even remember, was boring beyond belief.  Skip it if you
can.

John

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 09:51:15 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Wizard of Earthsea

>Wait a moment, is there ANYONE living who actually likes the 2nd
>book of the Earthsea trilogy?  I mean, it's worth the hour or two
>it takes to read it for continuity purposes, but GEEZ it's slow.

slow?  Slow?  SLOW?  That was the best one!  The first comes very
close, but the third one is BORING!  Dreadful stuff, "The Farthest
Shore."  "The Tombs of Atuan" is far better.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87 11:47:35 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: New Anne MacCaffrey Interactive Book

I spotted this in the book store last night; it is called
"Masterharper" or something like that. It is about Masterharper
Robinton in his youth (Pern series). I glanced at the covers, front
and back, then opened it at random. It is divided into sections, and
you roll dice to determine which section you are to read next.
About that time a 7 year old girl and a 9 year old boy standing next
to me started arguing loudly, then 2 18 year olds came up on the
other side and began even more loudly (so as to be heard above the
boy's complaint to his father, "I hate her!") about the merits of
the various Star Trek novelizations. I dropped the book and beat a
hasty retreat to the cash register with "Radix" and that Vinge book
about bobbles (not the first one, they didn't have it). (I forget
the name, but I was half way thru it when I dozed off about 1 AM
this morning...)

Now, my question is, is this book worth a closer look? Principally I
am asking for my sister: her husband is stationed at a pretty remote
base, and I send her all the latest books once a month. Keeps her
from going batty!!  I've never seen an interactive book before, and
would be interested in the general opinion out there.

Thanks for the assist!!

Sheri
ltsmith@mitre.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 24 July 87 14:46 EDT
From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: James Schmitz biblio. request

In SF_Lovers Vol. 12, # 105, Eric Hildum writes about James
Schmitz's Telzey Amberdon series:

>I would love a complete listing of the publication dates - there is
>one story that I read once and have not found again...

I would like to second this request; there is at least one Telzey
story ('Glory Day', appeared in Analog ca. 1970) NOT in the 3 vols.
of stories put out by Ace a couple of years ago, and I wonder how
many more are missing....you there, jayembee? Thanx in advance.

Artie Samplaski
Cornell Lab of Nuc. Studies
Internet: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET @ CU-ARPA.CS.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87 01:08:44 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Alternate universe in Colorado
To: steve@NCSC.ARPA

The book you are looking for is L. Neil Smith's _The Probability
Broach_, which is set mostly in a free market alternate universe.
It is set in July 1987!

The sequels are _The Nagasaki Vector_, _The Venus Belt_, _The
Gallatin Divergence_, _Her Majesty's Bucketeers_, and _Tom Paine
Maru_, in that order.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 19:11:51 GMT
From: lindsay@K.CS.CMU.EDU (Donald Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Alternate universe in Colorado

L. Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach" won a libertarian award as
best book of the year (a few years ago). They must have been awfully
hard up: it's got bad writing, bad science, bad plotting, and bad
polical theory going for it. Other than that I suppose it was (at
most) OK.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 87 00:57:31 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: author request

To anybody who may know:

Some time ago I read a very interesting book called "Nerve".  The
protagonist is a physician named Adam McKinley who has worked out a
drug which accelerates neural transmissions.  The result (or one of
them) is much increased reaction speed -- so much so that McKinley,
having taken it himself, is able to compete in sporting events
against professional athletes, including boxers, and win -- or at
least, not lose.  But this is not, of course, the only result.

I enjoyed the story greatly, but I cannot find the book again, and I
cannot remember the author's name.

Anybody know it?

Thanks a lot,

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #339
Date: 27 Jul 87 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #339
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jul 87 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #339
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 339

Today's Topics:

             Films - Japanimation & Robocop (2 msgs) &
                     The Thing (3 msgs) & Aliens &
                     The Quiet Earth (2 msgs) &
                     First Spaceship on Venus (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 87 21:41:34 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Robotech Saga: The novelization

Jim Omura and I bandy back and forth:
>Then again, the Macross movie would have been worse from a
>standpoint of continuity.  It had little continuity with the TV
>show, even in Japan.

Continuity-wise, you are correct.  The viewer is supposed to be
familiar with the circumstances surrounding the story line (Crash of
SDF-1, its refit, abrupt takeoff, etc).

>I dunno.  I'd like to see both Megazone 23 and "Robotech: The
>Untold Story".  From what I've heard, the Robotech version may be
>pretty good in its own way.  Apparently they didn't really add
>their own animation so much as they spliced in some from Mospeada.
>Anyway, we can see if they tie together more of the story lines.

Megazone 23 Part 1 contains VERY good animation and has a good
story.  Part 2 is drek.

For "Robotech: The Movie" some Korean animators under the
supervision of Tatsunoko studios did the extra animation.  I have a
friend who has the "extra" material that they did.  It's quite good,
better than I expected.  But it's nowhere near the 30 minutes Macek
claims.

Do you have Robotech: The Movie on tape?

>>Well, in "The Sentinels", Reba West (and one other singer) get
>>exactly one new song to sing -- a duet) (I won't explain the
>>circumstances).
>
>     Nothing in the Robotech movie?  Eve in Megazone 23 is a singer
>among other things (at least as far as I can tell), so there'd be a
>good openning for some new songs.  Reba West could really do a good
>job.  Heck, Jimmie Flinders (Yellow Dancer) was pretty good too.

Mea culpa.  Yes, EVE has a number of songs and they are very good.
But Minmei holds my heart for now.

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 08:15:22 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: ROBOCOP references

ROBOCOP seems to have a number of references to other science
fiction movies and stories.  I thought the fictional setting in
ROBOCOP was very similar to ABC's Max Headroom series.  There was
even a location in common -- an abandoned steel mill (which I
believe is in Pittsburgh).

Another reference: the stupid TV show everyone was watching had the
tag line "I'd buy that for a dollar!"  This would seem to refer to
the fictional TV show TAKE IT AND STICK IT, from Cyril Kornbluth's
"The Marching Morons".  The tag line in that show was "Would you buy
that for a quarter?"

One more, possibly unintentional: ED-209's voice is the same as the
one used in "Real Genius" when GOD is talking to Kent.  This kind of
ruined the effect for me.  I mean, here's this MEAN looking robot,
and whenever he talks, all I can think of is "Hi Kent.  Have you
been touching yourself?"

Well.  Anyone got any more?

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1987 20:51 PDT
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: RoboCop - don't miss it!

In my opinion, this is one of the best SF films to come along in the
past few years, and definitely the best one so far this year.  I'm
not going to describe the plot, but I will say that it doesn't
closely resemble any robot SF that I've seen or read before.

For one thing, it's a very good action film.  And as if that weren't
enough, it also happens to be quite funny.  The film reminded me of
"Brazil" in the way it depicted a society where our present values
have gone totally out of control.  It takes jabs at TV news,
corporate politics, toxic waste, drug dealers, and many other things
with unerring accuracy.

I'm not saying "RoboCop" doesn't have any flaws, but I really
respect the way it used a futuristic setting to poke fun at our
present social and political values.  It's very rare for that kind
of SF to make it to the theaters.

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
  ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Jul 87 11:29:39 PDT
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: The THING

Robert Firth writes:
>That's a lot of movies!  However, surely 'The Thing' was based on
>the story 'Who Goes There', by John W Campbell, who I doubt was
>influenced much by Lovecraft.  (By the way, am I the only person
>who FAR prefers the original to the remake?).  The London tube
>movie is

My personal feeling is that the 'original' THING was a pretty stock
1950's horror/SciFi flick (Note intentional use of SciFi as a term
of denigration :-) that took some horrendous liberties with the
original story, _Who_Goes_There_.  I *far* prefer Carpenter's THING,
probably because I read WGT before I saw *either* film, and the
Carpenter version is much truer to both the storyline and the feel
of the story.  I hate films that hack up a good story.  Not only
that, but the Carpenter version was much more realistic: Women are
extremely rare, if not non- existent at Antarctic bases; the '50s
version had a woman there to do the heavy-duty screaming.  Further,
anyone with half a brain knows that Antarctic (male) personnel are
mostly bearded; man has yet to improve much on face fur in warding
off frostbite.  The men in the '50s film were, of course, clean
shaven since anyone with a beard simply has to be a hippie
drug-using Commie sympathiser.

George Madison
BITNET: 7gmadiso@pomona
UUCP:   psuvax1!pomona.bitnet!7gmadiso
ARPA:   7gmadiso%pomona@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 15:53:37 GMT
From: putnam@thuban.steinmetz (putnam)
Subject: Re: The THING

7GMADISO@POMONA.BITNET writes:
>My personal feeling is that the 'original' THING was a pretty stock
>1950's horror/SciFi flick (Note intentional use of SciFi as a term
>of denigration :-) that took some horrendous liberties with the
>original story, _Who_Goes_There_.

MMM, yup.  But what other movie can boast the following line:

"An intellectual carrot!  The mind boggles."

(Ok, I may have it wrong, but it's something like that.)

jeff putnam
UUCP: steinmetz!putnam
ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 22:32:55 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: The THING

Robert Firth writes:
>'The Thing' was based on the story 'Who Goes There', by John W
>Campbell, who I doubt was influenced much by Lovecraft.  (By the
>way, am I the only person who FAR prefers the original to the
>remake?).

I prefer the original, but I would not say I far perfer it.  Both
films have their virtue.  The first is by far the better made film.
It has characters you care about, great dialogue, and it was a
pioneering science fiction film.  It was one of the first films to
warn about runaway science -- a sentiment I do not share, but at
least it shows the film was ahead of its time.  It also throws out
the great ideas of the story and replaces its nemesis with a monster
who is little more than a rampaging polar bear.

The Carpenter version does have more of the concepts and even some
of the plot of the Campbell story, but it still falls way short of
being a quality adaptation of "Who Goes There."  That film was about
scientists working on an interesting scientific problem, identifying
the alien, which has a clever solution.  The only person really
thinking in the Carpenter version is the helicopter pilot.  The
solution to the great problem is presented with little of the
buildup.  The shape-changing effects are nifty, but don't make
sense.  They alien would have to just flow from one form to another
in order to do what he is able to do.  But whenever we see a
transformation it has stalled out in some intermediate form and it
seems to take a long time for a transformation.  That leaves it
vulnerable for too long and leaves you to wonder how it ever kills
someone and replaces him.  Campbell's creature changes shapes like
mercury, just flowing from one shape to the next.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 17:41:51 GMT
From: chrisa@tekig5.tek.com (Chris Andersen)
Subject: More Aliens Stuff

  A comment someone made about the Queen Alien in "Aliens" not being
the last form of the alien sparked an idea in my head.  Some have
suggested (and I agreed with them) that the aliens are a genetically
manufactured war machine used by some other alien race to take over
planets without putting themselves at risk of physical harm.  The
problem is that once the fighting aliens take over the planet, how
do the controlling aliens move in without also getting torn apart by
the warriors?  Possibly the controllers have some means of 'shutting
down' the warriors, but I have an even more neat idea: what if the
warriors, once the planet is secure, EVOLVE into the controlling
race?  The Queen in "Aliens" would then just be a pre-cursor form of
the much more intelligent race to follow (just intelligent enough to
co-ordinate the warrior species and defend the hive, but not enough
to actually set up an actual civilization.)

  Perhaps once the indigenous (sp?) life forms on the planet are
consumed the warriors either die or possibly just go into
hibernation (the aliens in the hive did seem to be in some form of
suspended animation until they were woken up by the presence of the
soldiers (possibly at some signal from the Queen.))

  I figure that a plausible plot-line for the next movie is for some
colonists or explorers to run across a planet that has already gone
through the "consumption" phase and encounter the "next stage" of
development.  The movie could either center around the exploration
party (a group of scientists with a marine detachment? (lead by
Hicks??)) learning to survive the encounter, or the explorers
disappearing and a second party (with Ripley or Newt?) being sent
out to find out what happened.  Eventually they would encounter the
controller aliens and possibly find some way to communicate with
them (and possibly reach some kind of truce?)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 87 09:12:27 EDT
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Jim White)
Subject: The Quiet Earth

I recently rented a New Zealand based film that was released a few
years ago. I don't remember it making it big at the movies, but it
intrigued me as I was rummaging through the video store.

It was about a fellow who 'wakes up' one day to realize that he is
the only person alive. Some significant government botch up has
indeed left the planet bereft of life, with the exception of
himself. As it turns out he does find a couple other people, they
determine how it is they happen to survive, and go about trying to
resolve the situation and save the world.

******  big spoiler  ******

I was left however wondering what the heck happened at the end, and
am requesting some interpretation. The three living people are a
scientist, a women, and a Maori tribesman. The scientist figures out
that a U.S.  defense experiment went haywire and somehow, most of
the people were relocated in time/space. They weren't because at the
moment of the colossal screwup they were all busy becomming dead,
(he by suicide, she by a hair dryer, and the Maori via a jealous
husband.).

In the end the scientist drives an 18 wheeler loaded with explosives
into the research station, and the movie ends with a scene of him on
a beach with what looked like Saturn rising over the horizon. That
was meaningless to me. Did he die? Was he succesful in restoring the
people to the right Earth, at the right time? The symbolism is lost
on me, I really want to know what happened. If anybody is aware of
the results of his heroic act, let me know.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 16:54:40 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth

JWHITE@MAINE.BITNET writes:
> In the end the scientist drives an 18 wheeler loaded with
> explosives into the research station, and the movie ends with a
> scene of him on a beach with what looked like Saturn rising over
> the horizon. That was meaningless to me. Did he die? Was he
> succesful in restoring the people to the right Earth, at the right
> time? The symbolism is lost on me, I really want to know what
> happened. If anybody is aware of the results of his heroic act,
> lemme know.

The mechanism that was responsible for the disappearence of almost
all of the living things on earth was still active.  The scientist
(I forget his name) had calculated when the next "effect" was going
to strike.  The only people that survived the "first" effect were
those who were dying just as this first effect occured.  The
scientist realized that when the "second" effect would occur, he too
would disappear unless he was dying just as it (the second effect)
occured.  That's why he drove the 18-wheeler right into the research
station.  He was not successful (I don't think) in restoring the
"lost" people back to the earth, but only saved his own skin by
dying during the "second" effect.  Too bad he didn't take the woman
with him!  He ends up on another world, but I don't know how this
could be?  You'd think he would end up on the earth again, minus the
woman and the tribesman.

Perhaps the ending of this movie was vague even to the producers...

rj pietkivitch

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 14:20:37 GMT
From: mcnc!bch@RUTGERS.EDU (Byron C. Howes)
Subject: Re: Results of SF film quote quiz

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>No FIRST SPACESHIP ON VENUS was a somewhat more serious film.  In
>it a spool is found in the desert on Earth.  On it is a message
>saying that the Venerians are about to attack Earth.  However the
>spool is ancient and the proprosed attack never seems to have taken
>place.  An international effort sends a spaceship to Venus to
>investigate.  Some of the film is very moody.

If I remember correctly (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I
don't) there are two versions of this film.  The first is an East
German serious film that is really quite good.  The second is,
improbably, a Roger Corman cutting of the first with intercuttings
of Mamie Van Doren (dimly remembered) and other ladies playing the
only-hinted-at Venusians of the original.  It is, to say the least,
peculiar -- but then so is much of what Corman has made.

Byron C. Howes
bch@ecsvax

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 22:10:31 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Results of SF film quote quiz

bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron C. Howes) writes:
> leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>>No FIRST SPACESHIP ON VENUS was a somewhat more serious film.
> If I remember correctly (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I
> don't) there are two versions of this film.  The first is an East
> German serious film that is really quite good.  The second is,
> improbably, a Roger Corman cutting of the first with intercuttings
> of Mamie Van Doren (dimly remembered) and other ladies playing the
> only-hinted-at Venusians of the original.  It is, to say the
> least, peculiar -- but then so is much of what Corman has made.

I am afraid that you do not remember correctly.  The film you are
thinking of is PLANET BURG or STORM PLANET, a USSR film (FIRST
SPACESHIP is East-German/Polish).  PLANET BURG was dubbed and
additional footage was added with Faith Domergue and Basil Rathbone.
Peter Bogdanovich and Curtis Harrington were in charge of the
changed production which was released to TV as VOYAGE TO A
PREHISTORIC PLANET.  But Bogdanovich also used much of the footage
for the film in VOYAGE TO THE PLANET OF THE PREHISTORIC WOMEN.  That
was the film with Mamie Van Doren.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #340
Date: 27 Jul 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #340
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jul 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #340
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 340

Today's Topics:

               Books - Brin (6 msgs) & Piper (4 msgs)
                       Women (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 17:22:39 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: uplift war

dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>There also is a major contradiction in _Startide Rising_ about what
>the status of chimps and dolphins actually was.  There were several
>references to humans having "freed" these two species but yet were
>still performing uplift on them.  If they were freed, then the
>humans would have no right to modify their genes.  This was
>contradicted in _The Uplift War_ where it was revealed that chimps
>and dolphins had only been raised to stage 2.  (The reason for
>humans "freeing" their clients was to prevent another race from
>getting 3 clients at once if humans were ever converted to client
>status.  This didn't make sense.  If humans had been made clients,
>no legal technicality would ever have stopped other races from
>acquiring chimps and dolphins as clients.)

I think you're imagining things here. The dolphins and chimps were
allowed quite a bit more freedom than most client races, (to the
point of having members in the Earth government), but that's as far
as it went. There were numerous references to the dolphins and
chimps as clients. In short, please document your claim. Show me
*one* place where reference was made to non-client dolphins/chimps.
I'll really be surprised if you can do it.

I think Brin does a pretty good job with consistency, actually. I
did find one point that seemed a bit inconsistent (which was
mentioned earlier) but that's the only one I found.

Concerning the origin of the Progenitors: I don't think it's all
that inconsistent for the Galactics not to be concerned with them.
(Anyway, I think it would be an inconsistency of the Galactics, not
of the author.) After all, how many religious people do you know who
are worried about the origin of God? Yes, it's a bit different, but
not all that much, I think. The Progenitors seem to be the focus of
the religious beliefs of the Galactics, and I think they view the
Humans' contention that they uplifted themselves as a bit
blasphemous.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
seismo!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 16:15:09 GMT
From: gtchen@faline.bellcore.com (George T. Chen)
Subject: Re: uplift war

dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>(It seems to me that I found more inconsistancies than these the
>first time I read them, but on rereading them carefully I found
>several were resolved.)
>
>Bob Myers already gave a quote from Startide rising which
>contradicted the prohibition against uplifting Gorillas but no
>apparent prohibition against uplifting others (Kiqui).
>
>There also is a major contradiction in _Startide Rising_ about what
>the status of chimps and dolphins actually was.  There were several
>references to humans having "freed" these two species but yet were
>still performing uplift on them. ...

This was because of the fanatics in the galaxy.  As was explained to
Toshio, in the eyes of the Galatics, the dolphins and chimps were
still clients.  However, to the humans, they were to be treated as
already gone though the uplift process.

>The Galactics seem to have some kind of mental block about the
>Progenitors.  None of them seem to care where the Progenitors came
>from but they all are fascinated by where they went.  Maybe this
>could be explained by a basic difference in psychology but it
>doesn't seem likely.  After all, they have no problem trying to
>figure out where humans came from (i.e.  who were the missing
>patrons of humans.)

Call it self-interest.  The Progenitors were the fabled species that
uplifted itself to sapiency.  As far as the Galatics were concerned,
that's all fine and good.  Let the Progenitors assume legendary
proportions, since they were long gone, who cares.  But now, here
comes the wolfings claiming they uplifted themselves.  Now, if the
Galatics had to accept their non-client status, then they would be
admitting that the Earthlings were as good as the First Race.
Furthermore, they would be admitting that they themselves could not
have done it without patron help.

George Chen

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 17:08:21 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Uplift War--what next?

Prediction:

In two places in "Uplift War", passing reference is made to
important developments building with regards to one or more Hydrogen
species.  The short conversation between Kault and Uthacalthing on
the subject seems particularly significant.  I predict that this
will develop into a major factor.

Uplift War Speculation:

A general truce will be implemented.  It will be agreed to try to
find the Progenitors through the fleet (to which Earth will agree to
lead the Galactics) and to let *them* judge.  The fleet will turn
out to be jam-packed with Progenitors in suspended animation who
will indeed agree to judge.  The Tandu are immediately condemned for
their excesses.  For a while it looks as though the Tymbrimi will be
found worthy, but when the Progenitors find out that the Tymbrimi
really have screen doors on their spacecraft they give up on them
and find in favor of the Soro.  Terrans and Tymbrimi are both
remanded to the Soro for further uplift.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 21:54:31 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: uplift war

dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>There also is a major contradiction in _Startide Rising_ about what
>the status of chimps and dolphins actually was.  There were several
>references to humans having "freed" these two species but yet were
>still performing uplift on them.  If they were freed, then the
>humans would have no right to modify their genes.  This was
>contradicted in _The Uplift War_ where it was revealed that chimps
>and dolphins had only been raised to stage 2.  (The reason for
>humans "freeing" their clients was to prevent another race from
>getting 3 clients at once if humans were ever converted to client
>status.)

I thought it was clear enough that, in terms of galactic law, the
chimps and dolphins were still clients of the humans.  It is only in
terms of Terrestrial law that they have been freed.  I don't
remember anything about them being freed to prevent another race
from getting 3 clients at once; the primary consideration was that
the humans did not want to treat them the way most Galactics treat
their clients -- i.e., as slaves.

>The Galactics seem to have some kind of mental block about the
>Progenitors.  None of them seem to care where the Progenitors came
>from but they all are fascinated by where they went.

The Galactics don't seem to have any curiosity, per se.  They are
concerned about where the Progenitors went, since they might return,
and this would be important to them.  They are concerned about who
uplifted the humans, since that race is presumably still around, and
could show up to claim its rights.  But the origin of the
Progenitors is part of the dead past -- it is extremely unlikely to
matter to anybody.

(Of course, I expect that, in fact, it *will* turn to matter -- but
we are talking about the Galactics attitudes here, not mine.)

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 23:04:54 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: uplift war

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>I thought it was clear enough that, in terms of galactic law, the
>chimps and dolphins were still clients of the humans.  It is only
>in terms of Terrestrial law that they have been freed.  I don't
>remember anything about them being freed to prevent another race
>from getting 3 clients at once; the primary consideration was that
>the humans did not want to treat them the way most Galactics treat
>their clients -- i.e., as slaves.

I do happen to recall that the basic attitude of humans was
something like: "We don't want to treat them as slaves; besides, if
we get enslaved we certainly wouldn't want to do our masters any
favors like give them two more races". I read this >3 years ago, so
I don't remember specifics, but I do remember the general ideas.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 05:20:15 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: uplift war

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) writes:
>Concerning the origin of the Progenitors: I don't think it's all
>that inconsistent for the Galactics not to be concerned with them.
>(Anyway, I think it would be an inconsistency of the Galactics, not
>of the author.) After all, how many religious people do you know
>who are worried about the origin of God? Yes, it's a bit different,
>but not all that much, I think. The Progenitors seem to be the
>focus of the religious beliefs of the Galactics, and I think they
>view the Humans' contention that they uplifted themselves as a bit
>blasphemous.

It's not at all different. Although they will not want to admit it,
the Galactics attitude to the Progenitors are religious. How else do
they avoid pondering the obvious corollary to the belief that the
Progenitors were the first sapient race; to wit: that the sapience
of the Progenitors *evolved* naturally. And of course this is the
reason for the violent rejection of humanity's claim to have evolved
rather than been uplifted: It *is* blasphemy!

------------------------------

Date: Fri 24 Jul 87 08:42:59-PDT
From: D-ROGERS@EDWARDS-2060.ARPA
Subject: RE: animals in SF

   I think it is stretching things *A LOT* to consider HB Piper's
fuzzies as _animals_.  They are a stranded remnant of a space faring
race.  That's sapient, folks!

Dale

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 18:30:59 GMT
From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Dave Platt)
Subject: Origin of the fuzzies (SPOILER WARNING!)

D-ROGERS@EDWARDS-2060.ARPA writes:
> I think it is stretching things *A LOT* to consider HB Piper's
> fuzzies as _animals_.  They are a stranded remnant of a space
> faring race.  That's sapient, folks!

That's open to question, actually.  In Piper's first two Fuzzy books
("Little Fuzzy" and "Fuzzy Sapiens"), the actual origin of the
Fuzzies was left unspecified.  They did display an unusual need for
titanium in their diet, which was otherwise unknown among
Zarathustran animals, but the possiblity was left open that they
were the last remnants of a once-larger family of Zarathustran
primate-analogs.

There were rumors for years after Piper's death (suicide) that he
had written a third book about the Fuzzies that clarified their
origins, but such a book was not found among his notes.

A few years ago, William Tuning wrote "Fuzzy Bones", based on the
two Piper books and set shortly after the end of "Fuzzy Sapiens".
In it, he fleshed out the possiblity that the Fuzzies were, indeed,
the descendents of stranded star-travellers (whose planet of origin
is probably located somewhere outside of the Milky Way spiral).  I
believe that Tuning's work was authorized by Piper's estate, and
that he studied some of Piper's unpublished notes on the Fuzzies...
I'm working from memory and don't recall the details.

More recently (about two years ago?) someone found what turned out
to be an unfinished manuscript of Piper's third Fuzzy novel.  It has
since been completed and published (I don't remember the title).
Like Tuning's novel, it is set shortly after the end of "Fuzzy
Sapiens", but its thrust and ending are quite different.  In it,
Piper does not follow up on the suggestion that the Fuzzies are
descendents of a high-technology civilization; instead, they're
shown as utter innocents ("perpetual children" or something of that
ilk) who hadn't even comprehended the concept of a lie, and the
implication remains that they are native to Zarathustra.

I must admit a feeling of ambivalence about Piper's third story (and
about his treatment of Fuzzies in general).  The third book shares
with the first two a strong paternalistic flavor... Fuzzies are
adorable little children that must be protected and cherished by
Earthmen, and (according to the ending of Piper's third book)
there's little sense that they achieve any real sort of parity with
humans in society or government (or even as much as the Thorans).

Tuning's book is a much stronger one in many ways... the Fuzzies are
seen as mature sapients in their own right, with their own oral
culture (and some racial memory?) carried down from their stranded
ancestors.  The story ends with the Fuzzies and humans of
Zarathustra committing themselves to begin a search for Fuzzyhome,
thus leaving open the possibility of further Fuzzy stories.  The
characterizations in "Fuzzy Bones" are consistent with those in the
first two Piper novels, but explore a more forceful side of the
characters that had only been hinted at in Piper's writing.

I urge all fans of the Fuzzies to read all four books, and draw
their own conclusions.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 87 21:02:44 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Origin of the fuzzies

>More recently (about two years ago?) someone found what turned out
>to be an unfinished manuscript of Piper's third Fuzzy novel.

I think the title to this one is "Federation," although this may be
inaccurate.  I couple of years back, I inherited most of my
roommate's SF library when he moved to Texas and couldn't find an
easy way to move it.  "Federation" was in there, but, since I've
never bothered to read the other Fuzzy books, this one remains in my
bookcase at home, unread.  I DO know that it at least has something
to do with Fuzzies, since there are two of them on the cover, along
with some very military looking folks.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 05:07:10 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Origin of the fuzzies (SPOILER WARNING!)

dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Dave Platt) writes:
>> I think it is stretching things *A LOT* to consider HB Piper's
>> fuzzies as _animals_.  They are a stranded remnant of a space
>> faring race.  That's sapient, folks!
>
>That's open to question, actually.  In Piper's first two Fuzzy
>books ("Little Fuzzy" and "Fuzzy Sapiens"), the actual origin of
>the Fuzzies was left unspecified.

Even if they are native to Zarathustra, they are certainly not
animals.  The whole point of the first book is the struggle to get
them accepted as sapient.

(Incidently, one of the things I liked most about book 2 is the way
Piper turns things around so that Grego, the big bad baddie of
"Little Fuzzy" is no longer the antagonist.)

>I must admit a feeling of ambivalence about Piper's third story...

>Tuning's book is a much stronger one in many ways...

I found Tuning's book to be vastly superior to Piper's own #3. Much
more Piper than Piper himself. It was a great pity that Tuning died.
Seems that it's risky to write a 3rd Fuzzy book :-)

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87 02:01:08 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Women in SF
To: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU

From: mimsy!mangoe@RUTGERS.EDU (Charley Wingate)
> I also notice that Ayn Rand missed the list.

She is not usually regarded as an SF writer.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 16:28:08 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Female author

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>HAPPENING to me?!...), but I would like to suggest some sf novels
>by Lois McMaster Bujold.  She's one of the really exciting new
>(relatively speaking, as always) talents in the genre.  The three

I agree too!  And there's good news -- Lois is working on more
novels!

A couple of names that haven't turned up -- Jacqueline Lichtenberg
(The Sime/Gen series, "Molt Brother," and the Daushu (sp?) trilogy)
and Jean Lorrah (The Savage Empire series).

Jean Airey
US Mail:
1306 W. Illinois,
Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #341
Date: 27 Jul 87 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #341
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jul 87 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #341
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jul 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 341

Today's Topics:

                Books - Randisi & Tolkien (6 msgs) &
                        Illuminatus (2 msgs) & Cover Art (2 msgs)
                        Politics in SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 15:01:34 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: ONCE UPON A MURDER by Randisi & Randle

                         ONCE UPON A MURDER
              by Robert J. Randisi and Kevin D. Randle
                Windwalker, 1987, ISBN 0-88038-450-6
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Miles Paladon is a private eye in 1939 Chicago.  Following a
hot tip, he takes a hot slug in the chest and falls to the ground at
the edge of a battlefield littered with armored corpses, the arrow
protruding from his chest.  Say what?!  Well, that was his reaction
also.

     Miles has apparently been paired to his "twin," Prince Paladon
of Palandrum.  This pairing appears to consist of drawing Miles's
consciousness into Prince Paladon's body to share it with Paladon,
while Miles's own body lies comatose in his own world.  Prince
Paladon knows that the arrow which killed him was fired by one of
his own household, but needs Miles's additional psychic strength to
keep himself alive long enough to figure out who is was.

     There are the usual fantasy elements: wizards, magic, and all
that stuff.  There is an attempt to have strong female characters;
it's not a total success.  As a mystery, it's pretty ho-hum.  All in
all, it's an interesting blend of fantasy and mystery, and what I
call an "airport book": a pleasant enough way to spend a couple of
hours, but not something you should go out of your way to find.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87  23:32:54 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor, UMass-Boston)
Subject: Hobbit names

In response to Matthew Wiener, it isn't "silly" to assume that
Christopher Maag's letter concerned hobbit first names, since the
letter did not anywhere specify that surnames were meant; let's not
get paralogical here.  Also, I again state that I've lived near West
Virginia for a considerable portion of my life, and have studied the
region's folklore fairly extensively, and names such as "Proudfoot",
"Brandybuck", "Took" and "Maggot" simply aren't there.  West
Virginia was settled primarily by the Scotch-Irish, not the English,
and most of the surnames of the natives are Gaelic or Gaelic
derivative, such as MacAllister, McIntyre, etc.  Tolkien took at
least one of his hobbit surnames (Gamgee) from a brand of tooth
twine popular in his youth.  "Sackville" probably came from the
famous Sackville family, and may be a sly dig at the whole
Bloomsbury circle (as in Vita Sackville-West).  Finally, Tolkien
himself wrote many letters to everyone from W. H. Auden on down
discussing the origins of names and incidents in his works, and he
never once mentioned West Virginia as a source for the hobbits.

Of course, if anyone really cares about this apocryphal story, s/he
could always write to Christopher Tolkien or Humphrey Carpenter, or
read Carpenter's detailed biography - researching statements before
making them is a good idea, no?

Lisa Evans
Malden, Ma

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 11:42:56 GMT
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (59261-Mike King-x5693) writes:
>In reality, Tolkein got all his names out of The Elder Edda, which
>is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I remember correctly)...

Tolkien certainly did not get all his names out of the Elder Edda
(try finding "Bilbo Baggins" there..), but he did get some of them.
(Notably the dwarf names, as you said, and names like "Gandalf").

Lars-Henrik Eriksson
...mcvax!enea!sics!lhe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87  8:01:47 EDT
From: Keith Dale <kdale@cc3.bbn.com>
Subject: Tolkien's names

Can anyone substantiate a source for this, besides my feeble
imagination?

If you look on an old map of Ethiopia you'll find a largish province
called Gondor.  That's an established fact.  What I seem to remember
is that there was a legend about two friends, who happened to be
kings, who also happened to ride their horses throughout Gondor (one
equine being fast and pure white, of course) and who
(non-coincidentally) were named Frodo and Gandalf.

Perhaps it was Lin Carter's book on Tolkien?

Keith
kdale@cc3.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87 12:39:23 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: Tolkien's names and B Baggins in the phone books

I've just moved to the east coast from California, and while I don't
know just how widespread this practice is, I have 3 friends who have
put false names in the phone book to avoid having to pay for
unlisted numbers.

One is local: he and his wife live on Silver Fox Trail, which they
translated into latin, anglicized the resultant, and listed with the
phone company.  (They now receive mail and credit card offers for
this imaginary individual, and when someone calls and asks for him,
they pretend to be his personal secretary and give some tall tale to
what is obviously a telephone soliciter..)

The other two live in the San Francisco-Monterey Bay area, and BOTH
chose names out of LotR to list with the phone company. Neither one
knows the other. They use initials and/or reversed order to cut down
on crank calls from midnight telephone book perusers.

So...looking at a telephone book of today would be a poor
representative of what Tolkein would have seen in his day had he
written the phone company of a nice, quaint, hilly, agricultural
state and asked for a copy of their phone book...or asked a friend
traveling about the USA to pick up a copy of said phone book for
him. Certainly, had he really wanted a copy, he could have easily
enough obtained one.

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 17:45:50 GMT
From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's names and B Baggins in the phone books

Perhaps I can add to the list.  In Palo Alto California there is
listed one Ferric Jagger.  No doubt he has a physique as 'unto the
Gods', and lives off of salads of washed vegetables. :-)

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 18:00:27 GMT
From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's names and B Baggins in the phone books

   I can't recall the reference off hand, but several years ago I
was reading something (either an essay by Tolkien, or an interview
with him, or perhaps his son) in which the origins of the names in
the Hobbit, etc. were discussed.  I believe it was mentioned that
Baggins was the name of a farmer nearby where his family regularly
went for their summer holidays.  The dwarven names were all taken
verbatim out of the Elder Edda, though you probably won't find them
in most translations.  There are three or four verses which consist
solely of a catlog of the names of the first dwarves created, which
are usually omitted in all but the most scholarly translations as
being boring.

Kathryn L. Smith
MIT Lincoln Laboratories
Lexington, MA
ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU
UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 87 01:01:32 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

john@frog.UUCP (John Woods, Software):
>>     Also, I thought I heard at some time back that one of the two
>> authors or perhaps both together again, had written some new
>> book(s) relating to the Illuminatus.  Does anyone know anything
>> about them and how good they are?
>
>I don't know about both of them.  Wilson has also written "Masks of
>the Illuminati" (which I haven't seen), "The Illuminati Papers"
>(which I have, and which looks much like a collection of outtakes),
>and "The Earth Will Shake", which bills itself as "The Historical
>Illuminatus Chronicles I".  Wilson also has several other books out
>of the same general flavor but without the focus on the Illuminati
>(e.g. The Schroedinger's Cat trilogy).

Add:

THE WIDOW'S SON (Historical Illuminatus Chronicles II)
COSMIC TRIGGER: THE FINAL SECRET OF THE ILLUMINATI
   (Warning: I haven't read COSMIC TRIGGER, but I have read THE
   ILLUMINATI PAPERS and if I get the references right then TIP has
   spoilers of CT in it.)

THE ILLUMINATUS PAPERS -- I read it less as out-takes than as
non-fiction based on ILLUMINATUS!, intended to discuss our society.
(After you take a good look at our society, it's no weirder than
ILLUMINATUS!, I'll tell you that!)  Entertaining, but some hints of
"preachy"-ness (not obtrusive, just more obviously non-fiction than
the rest of the book).

>The Earth Will Shake is (so far) somewhat more interesting (it is,
>so far, (I think) tracing Hagbard Celine's family tree, and
>possibly simultaneously the trees of several other key Illuminatus!
>Trilogy players).  I don't know about Masks of the Illuminati.

Not his whole family tree, just Sigismundo and his immediate family.
And the Illuminatus old-boy network (;-}).

>I liked the first book of the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy (which I
>have); I glanced through the second book and thought it seemed to
>be much the same story put through a blender; I glanced at the
>first few and last few pages of the third book and concluded (1) it
>was also much the same story (with a surprise ending), and (2) the
>writing style was "cute" (bleah!).  Your mileage will almost
>certainly vary.

I got halfway through THE TRICK TOP HAT and tossed it; I couldn't
for the life of me find a unifying influence in the book.  If you
want weird, skip SCHRODINGER'S CAT and read something *really* weird
(ILLUMINATUS!, for a big example)....

Brandon S. Allbery
{ames,harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc!ncoast!allbery
{well,ihnp4}!hoptoad,cbosgd!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 10:05:09 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: ILLUMINATUS!

With the demise of Bluejay, the publication of "Nature and Nature's
God" has become an if, not a when.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 00:39:37 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Cover Art

I was in a bookstore today and saw a book by Gregory Benford,
"Across the Sea of Stars".  The title sounded familiar, so I checked
the title page to see if it was a re-issue.  I noticed that the
cover, a singularly uninspired piece of art, competently done, but
boring, was copyright by Roger Begendorf, which my dislexic mind
immediately recognized as an anagram of Gregore Benford.

Am I right in assuming that Roger Begendorf is a nom de airbrush for
Benford, or is it just that someone forgot to turn off the infinite
imporabability drive.

By the way, lest anyone think that I am judging the cover by its
book, I have not read the novel, and so have no opinion on it either
way.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 22:46:18 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Benford

>I was in a bookstore today and saw a book by Gregory Benford,
>"Across the Sea of Stars".  The title sounded familiar, so I
>checked the title page to see if it was a re-issue.

It has been out in hardback, but it is the original paperback issue.
The title is similar to "In the Ocean of the Night" of which this is
sort of a sequel.

>I noticed that the cover, a singularly uninspired piece of art,
>competently done, but boring,

Benford is not known for getting good covers. The last artist who
could handle hard SF competently was Sternbach, and he's too
expensive.

>Am I right in assuming that Roger Begendorf is a nom de airbrush
>for Benford, or is it just that someone forgot to turn off the
>infinite imporabability drive.

Highly improbable to impossible.  Besides the fact that Benford is a
writer and scientist (and not a professional artist) I don't see how
Benford could convince Tor to let him do his own cover -- few
authors can get a say on the cover, much less convince the art
director to let them paint the thing. I think you're reading things
into the name.

>By the way, lest anyone think that I am judging the cover by its
>book, I have not read the novel, and so have no opinion on it
>either way.

I have.  It's quite good -- it'll be reviewed in the next
OtherRealms with a strong recommendation.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87 11:55:00 EDT
From: wyzansky@nadc.arpa (H. Wyzansky)
Subject: Re:  Alternate Democracies

A participatory form of democracy is implied, although not gone into
in any great detail, in Clarke's _The_Deep_Range_ (Novel, not the
short story.)

An anarchistic society which appears to work is in Eric Frank
Russell's _And_Then_There_Were_None_.

An alternate form of representative democracy is described in some
detail in Nevil Shute's _In_The_Wet_ (a.k.a. _The_Queen's_Flight_).
In this system, a person can have anywhere from one to seven votes,
depending on qualifications.  As I recall, and it has been several
years since I read the book, the seven votes were:
    1.  The basic vote, given to everyone.
    2.  An extra vote if one has a college degree.
    3.  An extra vote if one's income was above a certain amount, on
the grounds that that much income must show a certain amount of
smarts.
    4.  An extra vote if a person remained married to the same
person for 15 (20?) years, on the grounds that shows some personal
stablity.
    5.  An extra vote for living outside the country for two or more
years, on the grounds that foreign travel is broadening.
    6.  An extra vote for the clergy in recognized denominations
(This was Australia - no separation of Church and State).
    7.  A seventh vote to be given by the sovereign, for special
service or merit.  This was given rarely and, by definition, can
only be given by a monarch or someone who is above politics.

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jul 87 19:09:45 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;608C)
Subject: Re: Alternate forms of democracy.

Try _A Planet Between_ by Norman Spinrad.  It has exactly what
you're asking for at least as far as communication is concerned
(computers are mainly used to do instant ratings of shows).  It also
has quite a lot on feminism (written during the 70's obviously).

For computer influences, in _Ender's Game_ (the book, not the short
story) Orson Scott Card extrapolates on computer nets essentially
taking over the function of newspapers.  The nets would have
commentators who are paid for weekly columns.  It's more
participatory than newspapers but in a hierarchical manner (i.e.
major international nets only allow certain people to post while
national and regional nets are less stringent).

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #342
Date: 28 Jul 87 0803-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #342
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 87 0803-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #342
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 342

Today's Topics:

                Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & LeGuin &
                        Spinrad & Tolkien & 
                        Recommendations & Wetware

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 87 12:15 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: re: Author politics (MZB)

I can't let this one go by.

Jeff Dalton writes:
> And it seems that in Bradley's universe, not just the Darkover
> one, women don't really not want to bear children, they just think
> they don't.  To those who reject this view, she suggests that they
> talk to her again after they've found a vegetarian lion.  Now
> there's an argument for you.

Some argument.  Never having children certainly doesn't mean you'll
die of malnutrition of ANY sort.

***FLAME ON***
MZB is entitled to her heir own opinions...but when those opinions
extend to cover what's going on inside other people's heads, they
should be regarded as the nonsense that they are. Who is MZB to say
what women really want, anyway?  Let her speak for herself and leave
me out.
***FLAME OFF***

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 16:55:46 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Author politics (MZB)

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros):
>MZB is entitled to her heir own opinions...but when those opinions
>extend to cover what's going on inside other people's heads, they
>should be regarded as the nonsense that they are. Who is MZB to say
>what women really want, anyway?  Let her speak for herself and
>leave me out.

Sigh.  That's not fair.  The flame-provoking opinion in question --
that it's only the stresses of our unnatural society that cause some
women to neurotically *think* they don't want children -- should not
be taken as the author's own without a lot more evidence than seems
to exist.  In "Darkover Landfall", this opinion is being presented
(as fact) by a man to a woman who doesn't want a child and is being
told she has no choice.  Granting that MZB's opinions seem to have
both hardened and soured since she wrote that, it still seems likely
that this character's opinions were not those of the author.

Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 87 10:07 EST
From: <OPER4%TRINCC.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (MAGENTA)
Subject: response to previous sf-lovers..

In response to an earlier reference to the Earthsea Trilogy...

From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
>A Wizard of Earthsea is a very good story about the growth of
>undertsanding in a yound wizard and should be highly recommended.
>The next book, The Tombs of Atuan, is even better, having to do
>with both Ged, the wizard, and a young priestess, who goes through
>some rather strange rituals.  The third book, however, the name of
>which I cannot even remember, was boring beyond belief.  Skip it if
>you can.

Just to offer another viewpoint on The Earthsea Trilogy. I felt that
The Tombs of Atuan was the lesser book in the series probably due to
the lack of action in the book, while the last book *The Farthest
Shore* was excellent and necessary to maintain the story of a man's
journey into manhood, completing the trilogy. I highly recommend
reading this book.

Chris Dickinson
Bitnet: oper4@trincc

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 18:37:51 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Alternate democracies

steve@ncsc.ARPA writes:
>First, Norman Spinrad wrote 'The Pink and Blue War' about a planet
>with global on-line realtime citizen voting on crucial issues.

Actually, the book is called "A World Between".

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 87 08:17 CDT
From: "Eleanor J. Evans 462-4420"
From: <EVANS%NGSTL1%eg.ti.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: hobbit names

From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
>   And of course he didn't get them out of a phone book, but they
>can be found there now.  Then again, there was a Bilbo Baggins
>listed in the Dallas phone book a few years ago.

There still is.  There is also a Bill B. O. Baggins.  Two
Proudfoots, two Sackvilles, three Bolgers and four Chubbs.  No
Tooks, but three Tookes.

I think the point, as an earlier poster inferred, is that these are
vintage English country names.  Since Appalachia is a storehouse of
vintage English country ways, the names could reasonably be expected
to appear in isolated areas, such as parts of West Virginia.

Migration patterns in earlier and in more recent years has led to
concentrations of odd names in large cities.  These names could now
be found in any sufficiently large city.  I'm sure NYC is full of
hobbits.

By the way, modern, citified West Virginians may use common first
names like John or Mary, but isolated (not just rural, and inbred)
areas particularly in past times (times of greater isolation) ran to
fascinatingly odd names.  Suzette Hayden Elgin (did I get the order
right?) used the Appalachian naming tradition to good effect in her
books - highly recommended, by the way.

Eleanor
evans%ngstl1%ti-eg.csnet@csnet.relay.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 87 17:23:04 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Fantasy recs

From: Matt Kimmel <KIMMEL%ecs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
>Can anyone recommend something new for me to read?  Fantasy is
>preferred, but I'll read Science Fiction in a pinch.

Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series is
a fantastic read, and there's another one, sort of a science fantasy
series, that involves a tribe of wolf-people/mystics. I can never
find any past the first book, though that one was fantastic. Can't
remember the name.

Tim Powers is... interesting. His stories take place between reality
and fantasy. He has two books that can definitely be pinned into
fantasy, "The Anubis Gates" and "The Drawing of the Dark". The
others are not fantasy.  I don't know what they are. They're
fantastic.

Since I don't have your original article, I'm not sure what books
you've already read. If "shared world" anthologies are more your
style, try "Llyavek: Players of Luck". (Pardon the misspelling - I
haven't read the book for a long while). It's an interesting twist
on fantasy, edited by Emma Bull and Will Chatterly. Chatterly also
wrote "Why Do Cats Have No Lord", a question that always got me to
wondering.

Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote an uneven collection of short stories
for a character she originally created for the Thieve's World
anthology. The character and the book are "Lythande". The cover
painting was drawn by someone with no feeling for the character, so
look at the cover of the first Thieve's World volume ("Tales of the
Vulgar Unicorn"? Not sure.), the OLD cover (by the same person who
does the Patricia Wrede covers... distinctive style, but not DKS or
Whelan, so I don't recall the name.) (I don't THINK it's Darrel K.
Sweet...), and look for the guy with the star on his brow.  That's
Lythande.

Which brings up Patricia Wrede, tangentially. I've only read one of
her books, and it was dull. It's been a while, and I didn't like it,
and I think it had "Shadow" somewhere in the tunnel. Had an
elegantly dressed woman, arms uplifted, on the cover, with a frog
person and a fox woman seated on thrones behind her. Avoid it.

Roger Zelazny has done more fantasy than the convoluted "Amber"
series... And a lot of it better. Look for a collection of short
stories, "Dilvish the Damned", and it's novel length sequel, "The
Changing Land". And when you're done those, go straight to "The
Changeling" and "Madwand", and watch for similarities. "Roadmarks"
might be fantasy. Just read everything he's written, although you
may find "The Dream Master" weak and predictable.

Someone must already have mentioned Barbara Hambly's "The Time of
the Dark" series - worthwhile, and best of all, once you read it you
don't need to read any of her other series, i.e. "The Ladies of
Mandrigyn/Witches of Wenshar", and that dreadful one with the DKS
cover (hmmm... NOW I remember his style... DKS didn't do the
Wrede/Thieve's World covers. DKS has improved a bit over the
horrible paperback covers he did earlier in his career, such as the
ones for McCaffrey's "To Ride Pegasus" and Tiptree's "Star Songs of
an Old Primate"). They all have DKS covers. But I mean that one
where the programmer gets transported to a fantasy world? "The
Silent Tower", I think.  Full of holes, and it tramples over ground
laid first, and better, in the "Dark" and "Ladies of Mandirgyn"
series.

Then there's Elizabeth Scarborough, who always turns out an
entertaining read.  I wish I had a better memory for titles. I've
read "The Harem of Somebody with a Persian Name (Ali Akhbar?)", sort
of a "1001 Nights" tale, told from the point of view of a barbarian
princess kidnapped by the clever use of an enlamped genie to serve
in a (soon-to-become-a-mule) trader's blossoming harem.  A good book
to read while your wife is in labor.

She's done a lot of good fantasy - "The Christening Quest", "The
Drastic Dragon of Some Obscure Town in Texas", etc. Little depth,
but fun.

Jack Chalker does fantasy, although he usually tries to get an SF
explanation in there to please everyone. Once you've read a few of
his books, you've gotten the idea. He has two series in progress,
"G.O.D. Inc.", a boring and predictable read from the two books thus
far, and "The Five Rings" series, which is in the second book of a
four book serial, and is extremely good.

In the "G.O.D. Inc." series ("Labyrinth" and "The Shadow Dancers"),
Chalker tries various melds of SF with other forms of genre fiction,
which fails miserably because Chalker has no idea how to write a
good (a) hard-boiled detective story, or (b) Cleopatra Jones story.
The second is particularly bad - sort of "Oprah Winfrey" meets "C.
Jones" meets Chalker, which means that you can count on her being
undressed for a good portion of the story.  Chalker seems hung up on
undressing women lately.

But read "The Dancing Gods" series - pure fantasy, and generally
even tone throughout, although the first book is best. By the third,
some of the originality is gone. The fourth looks to be promising
(but then, he always says his next book is the best one.) Another
pure fantasy is "And The Devil Drag Me Under", a straightforward
sit-com/fantasy, soon to be a major motion picure (yeah, sure).
Honorable mention is "Charon: Dragon at the Gate", the middle of the
ultimately predictable "Four Lords of the Diamond" series, and the
"Soul Rider" series, which starts out good in the first book, gets
better in the second, starts going downhill in the third, comes up
for air in the fifth, and then degenerates in the fifth. Try to get
these used.

Enough of Chalker. Michael Reaves is a writer I'd like to see more
of - a lot more. He's done "The Shattered World", a romp through the
shards of a planet, and "Dragonworld", a light fantasy. BTW, Reaves
also wrote one of the main characters of "The Shattered World" (in
somewhat more extreme form) into an episode of the usually boring
cartoon, "Dungeons and Dragons").  Strange - Larry Niven also wrote
an episode of that horrible live action Saturday morning show of the
'70's, "Land of the Lost". What some people will do for money.

And Jack Vance - a master of the language. Read all of his stuff,
especially the "Demon Princes" series and the "Dying Earth"
travelogue. Vance's imagination and writing both burst with
enthusiasm.

L. Sprague de Camp has a curious position as a paragon of fantasy.
Curious, because I can't find anything of his that is the least bit
original. Same with Lin Carter, so I won't bother coming up with a
bibliography.

Sheri S. Tepper is an original writer - rather say different. Read
some of the books of the "True Game" series - the first three
(Necromancer Nine, King's Blood Eleven, and another.) are best, and
the last three answer all the questions brought up in the first. The
middle trilogy is a bit of an interlude that doesn't move the
meta-plot along at all, and is generally forgettable.

I've just finished her "Northshore", another curious world with an
odd society and more questions to hold you for the next book,
"Southshore".  The characters are intriguing but rarely seem more
important than the world they live in. Also by her, "The Revenants",
a good book to buy when the bookstore hasn't stocked any sf/fantasy
for a long while.

Patricia McKillip - can't forget her. The power of the realm is
trapped in riddles, and a riddlemaster holds as much power as they
riddles he can answer.  The "Riddlemaster of Hed" is a good book,
but then she focuses on a minor character from the first book for
the next two, and it's not as fun. There's another book in the same
vein about a woman who has a way with mythical animals, but I can't
recall the title. I DO remember that there were two copies of it at
the used book store, and I bought the cheaper one, even though it
had a badly drawn cover.

One I'd like to forget, though, is the "Spellsinger" series by Alan
Dean Foster. What a waste, but there are some good bits. But all the
crap you have to wade through to get to them! You can get the entire
story by reading the back of the cover. I DO recommend his
"Moloukin" series, "Icerigger", "Mission to Moloukin", and the new
"The Deluge Drivers" (and watch the cat people change shape on the
cover of each new book). A.D.F. is mostly known for doing
adaptations of the animated "Star Drek" series and SF/Fantasy
movies, some of which are never actually released. He tends to use
the same narrative tone no matter what it is he's writing.

Not fantasy, but if you like GOOD dialogue, read the "Spenser"
series by Robert Parker. Just finished "Pale Kings and Princes" last
night. Parker is often hailed as Damiell Hammett's equal, but he's
better. Hammett was the original "hard-boiled" detective story
writer, but Parker says volumes with just a few words. The books are
very little like the television show, "Spenser for Hire", danke
Gott.

Larry Niven has written some good fantasy...

Hope this gives you some more books to read. But there's a lot of
surprisingly good reads in OTHER genres, such as mystery, horror,
detective, etc. I've been reading a few good autobiographies and
biographies lately - just finished Alec Guinness', and am looking
forward to a Dorothy Parker bio I saw last week at the library.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Fri Jul 24 13:13:49 1987
From: 321143%PITTVMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Wetware

Elizabeth Willey (ELIZABETH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU) writes:
>Interestingly, I was recently asked for a succinct definition of
>wetware and extracted the following from members of our research
>group in an informal poll.
>
>"What do you mean when you say `wetware'?"
>
>"Biological hardware.  The brain, for example."
>
>"Anything related to neuronal nets or structures which participate
>in the processing of information in an organism."
>
>Wetware is *not* the "software" which runs on the "hardware" of the
>organism; it *is* the "hardware" itself.  I don't know of a good
>catchy name for organic "software."  Perhaps "thoughtware,"
>although that would be deceptively specific.

I was wondering if anyone had referred to "wetware" as the injection
of organic computers into the brain (yes, an idea whose time is
_perhaps_ not yet upon us), or of the injection of a specific
person's RNA (a la SHATTER comics by Mike Saenz, First Comics) into
another to receive the other person's abilities.

I first heard about the organic computer idea on a science show
hosted by Keir Dullea, the name of which evades me at the moment.
He mentioned possible first uses as giving hearing back to the deaf,
or sight to the blind, and pondered the possibilities of giving
someone a college education with a shot, or making someone, say, a
surgeon by introducing the appropriate "program" into their brain
via an organic computer.

If this posting is rehashing old ideas, I'm sorry, but I got in on
this halfway.

Jeff Sullivan
12321_321143@PittVMS on BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #343
Date: 28 Jul 87 0807-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #343
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Jul 87 0807-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #343
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 28 Jul 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 343

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Recommendations (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 10:32:26 GMT
From: amq@topaz.rutgers.edu (Amqueue)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

Ack!!! Quite aside from this person's interesting opinions, he has
an intriguing memory for titles...

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series is
>a fantastic read, and there's another one, sort of a science
>fantasy series,that involves a tribe of wolf-people/mystics. I can
>never find any past the first book, though that one was fantastic.
>Can't remember the name.

Perhaps the Star Fishers? Glen Cook seems to me a very "dark"
writer, doom and gloom and all of that. He has a trilogy (he mostly
has trilogies...)  about a company of mercenaries and how they more
or less sabotage the side they are on... _The Black Company_, _The
White Rose_, and I can't remember the third.

>Since I don't have your original article, I'm not sure what books
>you've already read. If "shared world" anthologies are more your
>style, try "Llyavek: Players of Luck". (Pardon the misspelling - I
>haven't read the

_Liavek_, and _Liavek: Players of Luck_ are the two books so far.
This shared world differs from Sanctuary (all copyrights applicable)
in that instead of mean nasty and seedy, it tries to be optimistic
and postive.  There is also a very interesting magic system, but I
can see the AD&D character classes behind everything... perhaps I
have been playing too long...

>edited by Emma Bull and Will Chatterly. Chatterly also wrote "Why
>Do Cats Have No Lord", a question that always got me to wondering.

Actually, the title is _Cats Have No Lord_, and the book is passing
strange. Definitely worth reading, but I was a little weirded out
for a day or two afterward...

>Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote an uneven collection of short stories
>for a character she originally created for the Thieve's World
>anthology. The character and the book are "Lythande". The cover
>painting was drawn by someone with no feeling for the character, so
>look at the cover of the first Thieve's World volume ("Tales of the
>Vulgar Unicorn"? Not sure.), the OLD cover (by the same person who
>does the Patricia Wrede covers...  distinctive style, but not DKS
>or Whelan, so I don't recall the name.) (I don't THINK it's Darrel
>K. Sweet...), and look for the guy with the star on his brow.
>That's Lythande.

argh. My opinion of MZB aside, Lythande is a reasonable book. There
is a forward by MZB explaining various things, including why she
only wrote one story of Lythande for Thieve's World. I am of the
opinion that the Character was one of the best, but such is life.
The book includes the story that Vonda McIntyre wrote for TW about
Lythande. And the *original* covers of the first 2 TW books were
done by Walter Velez... the same artist who did the cover for the
(current edition) paperback of Lythande. You wouldn't know it was the
same character, except for the star on the forehead. Because of this
change, I conclude that either Velez can't conceive of
androgynous-looking people, or MZB corrected him. The former is a
shame, the latter a crime.

>Which brings up Patricia Wrede, tangentially. I've only read one of
>her books, and it was dull. It's been a while, and I didn't like
>it, and I think it had "Shadow" somewhere in the tunnel. Had an
>elegantly dressed woman, arms uplifted, on the cover, with a frog
>person and a fox woman seated on thrones behind her. Avoid it.

Patricia Wrede is a new author, as far as I can tell. She has four
books out that I know of. I bought them all thinking they were a
series. (no, I can't remember the titles.) I then read them in
chronological order by publishing date. They aren't a series, and her
writing **noticeably** improves with each book. Definitely worth
watching in the future.

>Roger Zelazny has done more fantasy than the convoluted "Amber"
>series... And

Read Roger Zelazny. Read Roger Zelazny. Read Roger Zelazny. When he
isn't fantastic, he is surreal. If you find a short story and a novel
with the same title, read the short. In every case that I have seen,
he has commented that he likes his short stories better than the
novels he expands them to.

>Someone must already have mentioned Barbara Hambly's "The Time of
>the Dark" series - worthwhile, and best of all, once you read it
>you don't need to read any of her other series, i.e. "The Ladies of
>Mandrigyn/Witches of Wenshar", and that dreadful one with the DKS
>cover (hmmm... NOW I remember

Good stuff. It seems that Hambly is using the same magic system
throughout her books. At least, the explanations seem very similar.
I wouldnt take this to imply that you should ignore the rest of her
work; _Dragonsbane_ is quite different (with a *marvelous* Whelan
cover), and the magic in _Ladies of Mandrigyn_ is not important to
the story. I have yet to read _Witches of Wenshar_, in which I
expect the magic to be much more prominent. _The Silent Tower_ does
indeed seem to be a repeat of the _Time of the Dark_ series, but
with only one book out I'm not going to judge yet. It seems to me
that, with the exception of _Dragonsbane_, the stories are about the
same world in different eras... like hundreds or thousands of years
between.

>his style... DKS didn't do the Wrede/Thieve's World covers.

Walter Velez did the first few TW covers. I don't remember who did
the Wrede covers. Velez has a tendency to do flat, cartoonish,
static pictures. (Im talking about being able to see the thin black
lines he colors between.)  Almost photographic if he tried harder...
but then, I dont know of him at all, so I shouldn't criticize his
talent.

>Then there's Elizabeth Scarborough, who always turns out an
>entertaining read.  I wish I had a better memory for titles. I've
>read "The Harem of Somebody with a Persian Name (Ali Akhbar?)",
>sort of a "1001 Nights" tale, told from the point of view of a
>barbarian princess kidnapped by the clever use of an enlamped genie
>to serve in a (soon-to-become-a-mule) trader's blossoming harem. A
>good book to read while your wife is in labor.  She's done a lot of
>good fantasy - "The Christening Quest", "The Drastic Dragon of Some
>Obscure Town in Texas", etc. Little depth, but fun.

_The Christening Quest_ is a sort of middle book, which picks up on
the continuing saga of people that started in _The Unicorn Creed_
and _Song of Sorcery_. (I may have the order of those two wrong...)
These two are fun books, more or less gently poking fun at magic and
the worshipful aura most people have around unicorns. However, by
the time of _The Christening Quest_ and _Bronwyn's Bane_ (that order
is correct) I was sort of bored with it. I can't vouch for the
Drastic Dragon or the Harem of Somebody Akhbar (don't think it was
ali...), having not read them.

>Jack Chalker does fantasy, although he usually tries to get an SF
>explanation

Jack Chalker has succeeded in writing good stories. Seldom, but
occasionally. He suffers from what I call "Piers Anthony Syndrome"
which seems to be a belief that if one book on a topic sells, an
infinite number of books on the *exact same topic* will sell. The
_Well World_ was interesting for the first 3 books, but 4 and 5 were
dead. It seems that his books *must* have a dowdy female character
who doesn't like being female but likes it fine after being
shapechanged into an hourglass-figured lustful wench with "huge
tracts of land". barf retch gag. In the Flux and Anchor books the
requisite character not only gets big t*ts, but humongous male parts
as well so not only ... oh, never mind. The problem I have is that I
*like* his writing, aside from this weirdness he has about sex and
sexuality... But it is boring after a while...

>And Jack Vance - a master of the language. Read all of his stuff,
>especially the "Demon Princes" series and the "Dying Earth"
>travelogue. Vance's imagination and writing both burst with
>enthusiasm.

Jack Vance is interesting. He apparently writes spy thrillers under
a slightly different name. His descriptions are wonderful, and
certainly odd.  Gene Wolfe cites him as a major influence. Many
people have tried to copy him, few with any success.

>L. Sprague de Camp has a curious position as a paragon of fantasy.
>Curious, because I can't find anything of his that is the least bit
>original. Same with Lin Carter, so I won't bother coming up with a
>bibliography.

Perhaps nothing is original cause it has all been copied already?
Both de Camp and Carter have been around for ages. Lin Carter was
editing the Flashing Swords anthologies... I know they went to 5,
but I dont know of more. He had some stories in there that were fun.
He tends to poke fun at the genre, and I find him amusing.

>Sheri S. Tepper is an original writer - rather say different. Read
>some of the books of the "True Game" series - the first three
>(Necromancer Nine, King's Blood Eleven, and another.) are best, and
>the last three answer all the questions brought up in the first.
>The middle trilogy is a bit of an interlude that doesn't move the
>meta-plot along at all, and is generally forgettable.

Arg again. The first trilogy is _King's Blood Four_, _Necromancer
Nine_, and _Wizard's Eleven_. The second trilogy is _The Song of
Mavin Manyshaped_, _The Flight of Mavin Manyshaped_, and _The Search
of Mavin Manyshaped_. The third trilogy is _Jinian Footseer_,
_Dervish Daughter_, and _Jinian Stareye_. The second trilogy is more
or less the history of one of the medium important characters, and
is set in time before the first trilogy. I am undecided as to
whether it stands alone; I cant tell. I really like the books. I
have a friend who says that KB4 should have stopped halfway through,
as it is obvious (to her) that the story changes in the middle, and
teh rules change and the powers change. I get too caught up in the
story to notice these things, but then my friend is pickier than I
about logical inconsistencies.

>Also by her, "The Revenants", a good book to buy when the bookstore
>hasn't stocked any sf/fantasy for a long while.

I don't understand this comment. _The Revenants_ is very different
from her True Game series. It strikes me as more of a myth, or as a
tale of people living out a myth. It is certainly fantastical.

>Patricia McKillip - can't forget her. The power of the realm is
>trapped in riddles, and a riddlemaster holds as much power as they
>riddles he can answer.

I didn't get this from the books at all. Be aware that many of the
characterizations in these books are taken from Celtic and Welsh
mythology.

>another book in the same vein about a woman who has a way with
>mythical animals, but I can't recall the title. I DO remember that
>there were two

_The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_. I dont think this bears any
resemblance to the Riddlemaster books... aside from a similar
eerieness of style. I was more struck by it as a story of betrayal.

amq

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 09:51:15 GMT
From: jl3j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: fantasy recs

>Patricia McKillip - can't forget her.  There's another book in the
>same vein about a woman who has a way with mythical animals, but I
>can't recall the title.

The title is "The Forgotten Beasts of Eld" and it is truly
fanstastic.

>Sheri Tepper - true games series The middle trilogy is a bit of an
>interlude that doesn't move the meta-plot along at all, and is
>generally forgettable.

I still love Sheri's work, but you are right here.

Also, you might want to read "The Book of the Dun Cow" by Walter
Wangerin, jr.  (if you can find it) There is also a sequel to this
called "The Book of Sorrow" (I think (?)) which if anyone knows
where to find it, I'd appreciate that knowledge.

Oh, and (here's a real "if you can find it") the Song of Earth books
by Mike Coney

   They are:
      The Celestial Steam Locomotive
      Gods of the Greataway

Also, anything by Terry Pratchett (another iffy find).

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 87 11:16:56 EDT
From: Ron Singleton <rsingle@wash.bbn.com>
Subject: Reading
To: sunybcs!ugjeffh@rutgers.edu

Re:   _The Mote in God's Eye_,     Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

   Niven/Pournell are a *winning team*.  They've collaberated on
several novels.  I recently bought "Footfall", and it held me rapt
for days.  I ignored my work (a little), my computer and crossword
puzzles (completely) and even my love life (well almost!) while
getting through it.
  I have "The Mote" on my shelf but am waiting for a long winter
weekend to start it.  During these summer months I like lots of
outdoors time and am afraid to start a N/P novel until the weather
chills off!

Re:   _Arc of the Dream_,          A. A. Attanasio

I've not heard of the book or the author, review for us when you
finish!

Re:   _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_,  Douglas Adams

   I just finished this series.  I did it the easy way, though, from
Books on Tape.  I "read" stories during my driving time, which is
really nice since I drive a lot during my work week.  I wasn't
satisfied with the last few sentences of "So Long and Thanks for All
the Fish", until I thought about it for a while.  Then I detected
irony, and a real ending where I had felt there wasn't one.  I've
recommended the entire series to several friends, Adams' humor and
style are great.  Specific to HHGTG, It's possibly the best of the
lot and well worth your time!

Re:   _A Darkness Upon the Ice_,   William R. Forstchen

Ditto remarks about Attanasio.

Re:   _Brain Wave_,                Poul Anderson

   Poul Anderson has been a great favorite of mine for many years.
Some of my first SF was Heinlein, Norton and Anderson.  I've been
reading SF for 30+ years so that's enough statement, IMHO, of a
recommendation for any of those authors.  I warn, though, Mr. H. is
harder to take these days.

Re:   The first three books of the Dragon Lance Chronicles

   I haven't had the time for these.  I am one of those folks with a
backlog so big I put on blinders and *run* when I pass a book store!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 14:22:55 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Fantasy recs

Another trilogy you might find interesting is "The Books of the
Black Current" by Ian Watson.  They are:

   The Book of the River
   The Book of the Stars
   The Book of Being

It is for the most part a very good series, which unfortunately
suffers from "Wizard of Earthsea" syndrome, meaning it builds and
then the third book lets you down.  They're still worth reading;
just don't expect to be truly satisfied by the ending.

   Also, "The Garbage Chroncles" by Brian (son of Frank) Herbert
comes very close to being fantasy.  It certainly isn't strict SF,
although what it is, I am not quite sure.

   And, actually, Robert Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." from the book
"Waldo & Magic, Inc." is a pretty good little fantasy novella, too

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27-Jul-1987 0706
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: Re: "Random Books"

Jerry, I can recommend two of the books you bought recently:

1.  A Mote In God's Eye (Niven and Pournelle)

The BEST "human race meets alien species" I've ever read, this book
is thorough in describing the circumstances of space flight and the
diplomatic relations between our race and theirs.  Not so much
action, but real descriptive science fiction.  The insight into the
minds of the aliens is very believable.

2.  Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Douglas Adams)

Douglas Adams, an Englishman who used to write Dr. Who episodes, has
a bizarre sense of humor that is reflected in his use of the English
language.  The story reminded me of Kurt Vonnegut Jr's Breakfast of
Champions, with its rambling and its unexpected, random encounters.

These are the only two on your list that I have read.  I think you
got a great gift in these two alone.

Mary

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #344
Date: 29 Jul 87 0804-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #344
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jul 87 0804-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #344
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Jul 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 344

Today's Topics:

                     Administrivia - Vacation,
                     Books - Bradley & Brin (2 msgs) &
                             Caidin & Cook & Greeley & LeGuin &
                             McKillip & Vernor Vinge &
                             Women Authors,
                     Magazines - Worlds of If

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 08:54:10 EDT
From: Saul  <Jaffe@RED.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Vacation

   Well folks, it is that time of year again.  Yes, I am speaking
about that wonderful, magical time known as "vacation" time.  Yours
truly is about to embark on a long, well deserved and needed
vacation to Merry Olde England and Scotland with a possible
excursion into Wales.  The trip will be concluded in Brighton for
the '87 World Science Fiction Convention.  I'll report on the
convention when I get back.
   Since I will be gone for all of August (I leave on the 2nd) I
have asked Dave Steiner to take my place as interim moderator.  Dave
is the current moderator of the "works" digest.  Because he is a
rather busy person, you can probably expect new digests to come out
sporadically during August (volume is low anyway during the summer).
I will take care of the backlog starting in September when I return.
(Open flood gates beginning September 3rd...)
   For those of you going to the convention, I'll see you there.
Look for announcements on the party board for the traditional "@"
party.  If I can con, er, find someone willing to volunteer their
room we will certainly have one.
   Enjoy the rest of your summer and I'll see you in September!

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 22:50:22 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Author politics (MZB)

Dani Zweig writes:
>Sigh.  That's not fair.  The flame-provoking opinion in question --
>that it's only the stresses of our unnatural society that cause
>some women to neurotically *think* they don't want children --
>should not be taken as the author's own without a lot more evidence
>than seems to exist.

I think you should look up the reference I rather vaguely gave in
the message that prompted the flame.  Bradley defends what happens
in Darkover Landfall in a rather obnoxious way, basically saying
that childlessness is as unnatural for women as vegetarianism is for
lions.  It's not just an inference from what happens in the fiction.

It's been a while since I actually read the passage I'm referring
to, so I may have it wrong, but I don't think so.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 14:51:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: The Uplift War

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I just finished TUW, and I was wondering when we find out what the
>dolphins found. Is it in an upcoming book, or was it in Startide
>Rising?

What The Dolphins Found is described in Startide Rising: They found
a derelict fleet of asteroid-size space ships, incredibly old, and
retrieved a mummified body from one ship.  They believe the ships
and mummy are Progenitors.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 03:06:51 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: uplift war

Bob Myers:
dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>There also is a major contradiction in _Startide Rising_ about
>>what the status of chimps and dolphins actually was.  There were
>>several references to humans having "freed" these two species but
>>yet were still performing uplift on them.  If they were freed,
>>then the humans would have no right to modify their genes.  This
>>was contradicted in _The Uplift War_ where it was revealed that
>>chimps and dolphins had only been raised to stage 2.  (The reason
>>for humans "freeing" their clients was to prevent another race
>>from getting 3 clients at once if humans were ever converted to
>>client status.  This didn't make sense.  If humans had been made
>>clients, no legal technicality would ever have stopped other races
>>from acquiring chimps and dolphins as clients.)
>
>I think you're imagining things here. The dolphins and chimps were
>allowed quite a bit more freedom than most client races, (to the
>point of having members in the Earth government), but that's as far
>as it went. There were numerous references to the dolphins and
>chimps as clients. In short, please document your claim. Show me
>*one* place where reference was made to non-client dolphins/chimps.
>I'll really be surprised if you can do it.

[George Chen and Frank Adams made essentially the same point.  Let
this be the answer to all of them.]

What I was thinking of was this quote from _Startide Rising_ (p. 67
in the paperback): rback):

       The fins knew, as well, that the loose codes that ruled
   behavior among the Galactic races, rules established in the
   Library for aeons, would have let humanity demand a hundred
   thousand years of servitude from its clients.  Men had
   collectively shuddered at the thought.  Homo sapiens sapiens
   himself was barely that age.  If Mankind *did* have a patron out
   there--one strong enough to lay claim to the title--that species
   wasn't going to pick up Tursiops amicus as an added bonus.

This implies that the humans had somehow freed the dolphins (and of
course the chimps too) in a way such that the Galactic Institutes
recognized the freedom.

This paragraph reflects Toshio's thinking early in the book.  It
occurred to me after I looked it up it that Toshio is rather young
(perhaps 18 years old) and may have had some rather naive ideas
about Galactic politics.  Anyway, I agree with you that the chimps
and dolphins are still clients in the eyes of Galactic Law and will
be for many centuries.

>I think Brin does a pretty good job with consistency,

Actually, after rereading the first two books and finding that my
earlier impression of many inconsistencies was wrong, I agree.

>Concerning the origin of the Progenitors: I don't think it's all
>that inconsistent for the Galactics not to be concerned with them.
>(Anyway, I think it would be an inconsistency of the Galactics, not
>of the author.) After all, how many religious people do you know
>who are worried about the origin of God? Yes, it's a bit different,
>but not all that much, I think. The Progenitors seem to be the
>focus of the religious beliefs of the Galactics, and I think they
>view the Humans' contention that they uplifted themselves as a bit
>blasphemous.

Other people have answered this.  I will only say that in _Sundiver_
there is a line about the Galactics not having anything similar to
human religion.  (I suppose that since there is actual evidence that
the Progenitors did exist that it's not the same as human religion.
Please NO arguments about human religion.)

A couple of other inconsistencies occurred to me:

Where did Fiben Bolger (a chimp and major character in _Uplift War_)
get his first name?  As far as I know, "Fiben" is not a name in any
major Earth language and is almost definitely not a Tymbrimi name.
Nor do I know of any important fictional character named Fiben.
Perhaps it's a Kanten name, although why he would be named after a
Kanten is beyond me.

Where did the Tymbrimi get their sense of humor?  Brin kind of
skirts the question in _Uplift War_ although he does say that
patrons normally remove any such foolishness from their clients.
Why didn't the Tymbrimi patrons do the same?

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87 02:42 EST
From: "R. Allen Jervis" <C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Ringing a bionic bell?

I recently found a book entitled "Starbright" by Martin Caidin. I
thought it was excellent!  I had always thought that his only novel
was "Cyborg" (The novel that the Six-million Dollar man was
supposedly based on.)

The 'About the Author' section said he was the author of over a
hundred books so my question is has anyone read anything else by
him, and was it worth seeking out?

R. Allen Jervis
c78kck@irishmvs

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 18:57:42 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

>Perhaps the Star Fishers? Glen Cook seems to me a very "dark"
>writer, doom and gloom and all of that.

In his early works, Glen Cook wrote really dark stories where those
who didn't die lived unhappily ever after. However, his more recent
works generally have a much lighter tone. Fewer nice people get
killed. Those who live seem to have brighter futures.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 15:44:41 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: GOD GAME by Andrew M. Greeley

                   GOD GAME by Andrew M. Greeley
               Tor, 1987 (1986c), ISBN 0-812-58336-1
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Like Atwood's HANDMAID'S TALE and Appel's TIME AFTER TIME, GOD
GAME is another science fiction novel written by a "mainstream"
author.  In this case, the author is a mystery author who is also a
priest, and my understanding is that his previous novels have been
set in the Church.  In this novel, his main character is a priest,
so he retains that connection with his past.  But this is not a
mystery; it is entirely science fiction, and in some ways, a
fantasy.

     The "God Game" of the title is a role-playing game called "Duke
and Duchess" that the narrator's friend Nathan has designed and
given to the narrator to play-test.  While he is testing it, a bolt
of lightning hits his satellite dish.  It apparently doesn't damage
either the television or the computer attached to it (no, this isn't
the fantasy aspect, though anyone who's had a similar occurrence
happen knows this is *extremely* unlikely), but suddenly the
animated blips on the screen turn into a "real" movie.  The game is
still running, but differently than before, and the narrator begins
to realize that something has gone wrong.  He gradually comes to
understand that the lightning has opened a portal into another
universe--there's some scientific hand-waving to explain this--and
that he is God in that universe.

     This novel has been likened to FRANKENSTEIN, but that is
inaccurate.  The narrator has not created anyone; he has inherited
all his characters.  He spends most of the novel trying to reconcile
his position as the supreme being of that universe with his beliefs
as a priest in God.  The writing is straightforward.  Greeley does
not rely on style to tell his story.  He relies on plot.  In this
case, he relies on two plots: the main plot of the narrator who
finds that he is God, and the internal plot of the events in the
other universe, a fantasy kingdom with dukes, duchesses, witches,
sprites, and all the concomitant trappings.  The inter-weaving of
the two keeps the book moving along.  This means that the
philosophical monologues of the narrator, which you would think
might slow the book down, are kept to a shorter length than if
Greeley had only one plot to deal with.  The resolution is perhaps
not entirely satisfactory, but that may be the point.

     Greeley has achieved such success with this that his next (and
most recent) novel is even more definitely science fiction.  I am
curious to see if he continues using his religious background to
give us novels of the sort that C. S. Lewis and James Blish used to
write.

     [Note: There is *no* "The" in the title.]

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 22:00:28 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

hogge@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>Wait a moment, is there ANYONE living who actually likes the 2nd
>book of the Earthsea trilogy?

Well, I agree it's the weakest of the three.  Actually, I think the
most interesting thing about it is that it could so easily have been
better even if nothing more "happened" (think horror...).  Why was
it written at all?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 20:21:05 GMT
From: olegovna@math.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>Patricia McKillip - can't forget her.  another book in the same
>vein about a woman who has a way with mythical animals, but I can't
>recall the title.

Probably _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_.  Another good one by
McKillip is _Moonflash_, a short and lyrical work about a woman from
an isolated primitive society who leaves to follow a dream and gets
a bit more than she bargained for.  I've seen a sequel to this in
the stores-- does anyone who's read it want to venture an opinion?

Tamara Petroff
olegovna@MATH.UCLA.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 00:04:57 GMT
From: seismo!watmath!watdcsu!wadrian@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Third Story in _Peace War_ Universe

Another Vernor Vinge story in the _The Peace War_/_Marooned in Real
Time_ universe is the novelette _The Ungoverned_.

It deals with Wil Brierson's attempt to thwart an invasion of the
Midwest by the New Mexicans.  (They show up again in MIRT).

It was published in the short lived book-magazine `Far Frontiers',
specifically the Fall 1985 (Volume 3) edition.

David Small
WADRIAN@WATDCSU.waterloo.cdn
WATMATH!WATDCSU!WADRIAN

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 21:42:33 GMT
From: chavey@speedy.wisc.edu (Darrah Chavey)
Subject: Women Authors in SF

A few weeks ago I posted an offer to collect the Women SF Authors as
recommended by our local feminist SF Convention.  My current list of
women authors has more than 400 names on it, so it's taking me a
little time to type it in, organize it, and add in recommendations.
I still plan to do so.  My source on the "Women Authors You've Never
Heard Of" panel has been on vacation, so it's taking me some time to
get the recommendations from her.  I'm also collecting some
recommendations from other local experts (e.g., the editors of our
two local feminist SF fanzines).  I also expect to include the
recommendations culled from this newsgroup.  I would especially be
interested in recommendations other readers may have of selected
books from the output of:
   Andre Norton; Leigh Brackett; C.J. Cherryh; C.L. Moore;
   Sydney Van Scyoc; and Kate Wilhelm

One point I would like to ask about is the following: One of the
women on my list of authors was born a man, but chose to medically
change his/her gender.  I have no intention of posting the identity
of this author, but I would be interested in opinions of whether
this fact should make a difference.  Should she be included in the
list?  (All of her books were published after she became a she.)

Darrah Chavey
Computer Sciences Department
University of Wisconsin, Madison WI
chavey@cs.wisc.edu
...{ihnp4,seismo,allegra}!uwvax!chavey

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 87 22:21:42 GMT
From: dss3s@dale.acc.virginia.edu (Diana Sterner Hamilton)
Subject: status of Worlds of If magazine

   A while ago someone had asked about Worlds of If magazine.  Rumor
via the SF Forum at SUNY Stony Brook (editor Clifford "Worlds of
Cliff" Hong's alma mater) has it that issue #2, although printed on
schedule in February, was legally entangled for some time due to a
disagreement with the publisher.
   Supposedly the magazine is now out with limited newsstand
distribution, though I'm not sure where. It should certainly be
available directly from Cliff. For information, write

   STF Corporation
   P.O. Box 93
   Hicksville, NY 11802

   Authors either in this issue or lined up for future issues
include Hal Clement, Alan Dean Foster, Roger Zelazny, Gene Wolfe,
and Jaqueline Lichtenberg.

STF stands for "scientifiction".

Diana

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Jul  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #345
Date: 29 Jul 87 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #345
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Jul 87 0825-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #345
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 29 Jul 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 345

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (3 msgs) &
                             Thieve's World (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 87  21:33:40 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor)
Subject: Hobbit names (again)

For the record: I just looked up West Virginia, Kentucky and the
United States in Humphrey Carpenter's biography of J.R.R. Tolkien
and Tolkien's collected letters.  Not only were there *no*
references to either West Virginia or Kentucky, Tolkien *never even
visited the United States*, contrary to D.V.W. James's assertion
that Tolkien visited Kentucky for an extended period.  To the best
of anyone's knowledge, Tolkien lived in the following countries:
England, South Africa (born in Bloemfontein), and France/Belgium (as
a member of the BEF in WWI).  Which brings me back to what I said
earlier: that this is a cute rumor akin to the Francis Bacon and/or
Earl of Oxford authorship of Shakespeare, that you can't believe
everything your professors tell you, and that you should check your
facts first.

One more thing: not only did Tolkien never leave Britain after his
army service, he had a life-long distaste for travel, similar to
Isaac Asimov's refusal to go anywhere he cannot go by train or boat.
In fact, he was so much of a homebody that he did not even go to
London to negotiate with his publishers (a distance of less than 100
miles from Oxford), and only moved from Oxford as an adult to please
his wife, who was in ill health and wanted to spend her last few
years by the sea.  As soon as she died he moved back to Oxford.  So
much for the "Tolkien picked up names in Kentucky."  In fact, as far
as anyone knows, he took the hobbit names from English products and
people (Dr.  Gamgee's cotton wool; Vita Sackville-West).  But this
whole thing definitely wins the "Fallacious Literary Theory of the
Year Award", along with such outrageous but entertaining ideas as
Monk Lewis as the true author of Poe, Swinburne writing Kipling,
etc., and the even better true stories of Lovecraft ghostwriting for
Houdini, Avram Davidson ghostwriting for Ellery Queen, and so on and
so on and so on and...

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1987 16:04 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkiens's diction

There has been much discussion of where JRRTolkien got his names
from recently. This has been entertaining but no-one has pointed out
two factors.

First. JRRT was a philologist - in other words he made a scientific
study of words and languages. Perhaps he is the only *Science*
Fiction author who is qualified in the field of words. Perhaps this
is a partial reason why his names are so fitting and 'realistic'.

Second. In the posthumous publications Christopher Tolkien has taken
care to record the process whereby JRRT slowly evolved names for his
characters over the successive drafts and years. Probably JRRT has
taken more trouble to get his names right than any other writer in
this century(8->))?

Dick Botting
Cal State
San Bernardino, CA 92407
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
paaaaar%calstate.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
5500 State University Pkwy
San Bernardino, CA 92407
(714) 887-7368

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87 00:31 EDT
From: <V114NJ32%UBVMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's Diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
>telephone book. Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Tolkien addresses hobbit names briefly as follows:

   " There is the question of nomenclature. The dwarf-names, and the
   wizard's, are from the Elder Edda. The hobbit-names are from
   Obvious Sources proper to their kind. The full list of their
   wealthier families is: Baggins, Boffin, Bolger, Bracegirdle,
   Brandybuck, Burrowes, Chubb, Grubb, Hornblower, Proudfoot,
   Sackville, and Took"
         [ _Letters_ p. 31 ]

   It is clearly the not case that *all* the names were picked
randomly from a phone book as witnessed to by such famous cases as
"Gamgee" [cf. Dr. Gamgee and the bandage] and "Frodo" (from the
Elder Edda). Also I remember that Tolkien varried the narration's
vocabulary to fit the geographic location, eg.  the descriptive
words in Rohan differ from those used in Gondor (sorry I forgot the
reference maybe _Tolkien: A Bio_). Accordingly, the inhabitants of
the Shire are given Anglo-Saxon names to reflect earthiness. Here is
a list of word and name meanings from Ruth S. Noel's (though I think
she has changed her name) _The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth":

   Andwise  (OE and-wis 'expert', 'skillful') hobbit
   Anson  (OE an, sunu 'only son') hobbit [only son of Anwise]
   Bilbo (archaic 'slender sword')
   Bolger ( A variation on 'bulge') Bolgers, like most hobbits
      were pudgy.
   Bree  (archaic 'bank' 'hill')
   Frodo (OE frod 'wise', 'prudent')
   Halfast (OE 'sung in a hall or nook') hobbit
   Hamson (OE 'home son') hobbit
   Harfoots (dialect 'hair feet') hobbit tribe
   Holman (OE 'hole man') hobbit
       [p 19-20]
In addition I remember [sorry, no ref] "Baggins" being given as he
came from the end of a bag ('Bag End' get it?). "Obvious Sources"
seem to cover "Proudfoot", "Hornblower", "Bracegirdle", "Burrows",
"Underhill", "Goodbody", "Cotton", "Overhill", "Gardener" and
"Sandyman" as well as many of the given names in Appendix C. In fact
Tolkien writes to his son Christopher:

   " As to Sam Gamgee. I quite agree with what you say, and I
   wouldn't dream of changing his name without your approval [ he
   had thought of changing it to 'Goodchild']; but the object of the
   alteration was precisely to bring out the comicness, peasantry,
   and if you will the Englishry of this jewel among hobbits. Had I
   thought it out at the beginning, I should have given all hobbits
   very English names to match the shire."
       [_Letters_ p. 88]

As indicated not all names fit the pattern- "Ferumbras",
"Bandobras", "Dinodas", "Drogo", "Odo", "Olo". These are however
internally explained under the nameing conventions of Appendix F. Of
course it might be claimed that this does not preclude their
inspiration from being external (ie a W.V. phone book) and then
being justified in a construct (ie. "Gamgee"), but there is some
evidence against it. For bit players like those mentioned only in a
genealogical table I might believe an attempt to generate a lot of
names easily. However in an early draft of LOTR when the main
charactor is still named "Bingo Bolger -Baggins", there is a
traveling companion named "Odo" [_Tolkien:A Bio_ p. 210) making it
seem that what was once a central character's name got moved to the
backround. For the name ever to have been selected it must have had
some significance beyond a chance selection and if so then all the
backround names probably have equaly valid derivations. Typical
Tolkien attention to detail.
   Other points. Even if he had access to a W.V. phone book what
would prompt him to consult it in the first place? Can you imagine a
philologist sitting around for hours reading page after page of a
phone book to get a name?  Also why did he never mention it (at
least not in _Letters_ or _T: A Bio_)?  Possibly the fact that some
W.V.'s also have clanish comunities coupled with a coincidental
occurance in the phone book led to your prof's theory.

D. V. W. James writes:
> I saw a newspaper acticle several years ago that alluded to much
>the same thing, only the state was Kentucky, rather than W. Va.,
>which he visited for a while.

When was this? Tolkien never made it to America to my understanding.
An offer for a tour and an University engagement was made and
accepted but it was never made because of, I think, poor health.
Unfortunatly I can't find a ref now.

Keith Dale writes:
>If you look on an old map of Ethiopia you'll find a largish
>provience called Gondor. That's an established fact. What I seem to
>remember is that there was a legend about two friends, who happen
>to be kings, who also happened to ride their horses through Gondor
>(one equine being fast and pure white, of course) and who
>(non-coincidentally) were named Frodo and Gandalf.
>
>Perhapse it was Lin Carter's book on Tolkien?

Someone wrote Tolkien on "Gondor" (they and he give 'Gondar"):

   " 1) I do not recollect ever having heard the name 'Gondar' (in
   Ethiopia ) before your letter; 2)'Gondor' is (a) a name fited to
   the style and phonetics of Sindarin, and (b) has the sense
   'Stone-land'..."
      [_letters_ p. 409]

I looked quickly in (it has no index) _A Look Behind the Lord of the
Rings_ but was unable to find a reference.

Questions:

   Does anyone know if _An Introduction to Elvish_ will be revised
   in the light of the new info in the Histories of Middle Earth?

   Any opinions on Guy Kay's Fionavar Tapestry books? I still am
   trying to find the third.

   Should I bother to finish LeGuin's _Always Coming Home_ or donate
   it to a paper drive?

Peter Dill

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 87  23:03:57 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (RG Traynor)
Subject: Thieves World

Bruce W. Order asks if anyone else has been as disappointed in the
recent Thieves' World books as he has.  Personally, I stopped
reading the things about the time Tempus took over and became Like
Unto a God.  According to a source I know in the publishing
industry, Bob Asprin and Lynn Abbey knew they were in trouble
several books ago with Janet Morris's favorite Wandering Jew
(Vashankan?).  Evidently the entire team has spent the last four
books writing their way out of the whole Tempus business.  Also,
Morris herself is skating on excessively thin ice.  She published a
great deal of non-TW Tempus stuff, and if she tries to publish much
more she's going to get the boot.  Since I can't stand either the
woman or her writing, I hope this happens before the whole series
collapses under the weight of gods, demons, Tempus...if I want an
immortal and brutal mercenary, I'll go read my husband's Casca books
at 3:00 am when I'm too zonked to care....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 87 22:40:05 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Thieves World

>Bruce W. Order asks if anyone else has been as disappointed in the
>recent Thieves' World books as he has.  Personally, I stopped
>reading the things about the time Tempus took over and became Like
>Unto a God.

Well, books 4-6 were pretty boring, although I think that they came
up from the doldrums and had things back on course by book eight.  I
do find it interesting, though, that I haven't seen a publication
date for volume 10.

>According to a source I know in the publishing industry, Bob Asprin
>and Lynn Abbey knew they were in trouble several books ago with
>Janet Morris's favorite Wandering Jew (Vashankan?).  Evidently the
>entire team has spent the last four books writing their way out of
>the whole Tempus business.  Also, Morris herself is skating on
>excessively thin ice.  She published a great deal of non-TW Tempus
>stuff, and if she tries to publish much more she's going to get the
>boot.

I haven't heard that one yet, but it wouldn't surprise me. Morris
has two things going for her -- she is unbelievably prolific, and
she has Baen Books pushing her.  She has one thing going against her
-- talent, or the lack of it.  To be honest, though, the third book
in the Tempus series wasn't bad at all --she finally seems to have
gotten control of her books.  I just wish she hadn't been allowed to
serve her apprenticeship in public where unsuspecting readers had to
put up with it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 18:48:36 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Thieves World

From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Bruce W. Order asks if anyone else has been as disappointed in the
>recent Thieves' World books as he has.  Personally, I stopped
>reading the things about the time Tempus took over and became Like
>Unto a God.

Personally, I gave up when my favorite character, Shadowspawn, the
only character who openly defied the Gods, suddenly became the God's
best friend.  What happened to the out-of-the-way hellhole that was
described in the first book?  Why are Gods showing up on every other
page?  It seems that in the later stories, all of the authors
suddenly felt that unless they had a God actively participating in
their story, they were missing out.  I want intrigue!  Backstabbing!
Treachery!  Guile!  All I was getting was a lot of Deus ex Machina.

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Fone:  (301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jul 87 03:28:29 GMT
From: seismo!uunet!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Thieves World

Bevan@UMass.BITNET writes:
>Bruce W. Order asks if anyone else has been as disappointed in the
>recent Thieves' World books as he has.  Personally, I stopped
>reading the things about the time Tempus took over and became Like
>Unto a God.

Yeah, I liked the series when I first found out about it. I bought
the first four books sight unseen, and read them. I liked the first
three, then the quality went down. Simply the introduction of Tempus
was a mistake. I don't like his character, and I think the stories
containing him are not as good as those that went before. What ever
happened to the simpler life of Sanctuary?  With the storyteller and
some simple thievery? I do like ShadowSpawn though.  (I DID like
"The Vivisectionist" though, as we see Tempus suffer. There is
nothing that gives me more pleasure than to see him suffer! I think
his god should get mad at him and 'recall' him.)

I stopped reading altogether after book 6, even though I bought up
to 8.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale, NF, Canada A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1
CDNNET: sean1@garfield.mun.cdn

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 22:55:06 GMT
From: lll-lcc!leadsv!berg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gail Berg)
Subject: Re: Thieves World

For anyone who's interested, Robert Asprin will be in San Jose this
weekend in conjunction with the Timecon SF convention.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 01:14:09 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU (bms)
Subject: Re: Thieves World

sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>Yeah, I liked the series when I first found out about it. I bought
>the first four books sight unseen, and read them. I liked the first
>three, then the quality went down. Simply the introduction of
>Tempus was a mistake. I don't like his character, and I think the
>stories containing him are not as good as

Funny... (well, okay, not really so): I remember liking Tempus, but
I also remember a time when he acted like he wanted to get AWAY from
godliness.  When I had hope for him and Sanctuary, things were FINE,
and I always thought he and Shadowspawn were great together...  but
then, as many people have said, things went downhill.

In general, I don't like gods in my stories, because they have too
much power.  Seems like too many writers get themselves into a hole
and then do something completely unreasonable and explain it as `an
act of God'.  Magic can be fun - when it has real limits and rules,
but that sort of thing seems to go against the whole concept of
`God', doesn't it?

At any rate, it's her work in TW that turned me off Janet Morris
(not that I had any particular interest in her before), and I'm
sorry to see involved in CJC's Merovingen Nights.  Comments on that?

Becky

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #346
Date: 12 Aug 87 0037-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #346
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 0037-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #346
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Aug 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 346

Today's Topics:
                  Books - Codex Seraphinianus (2 msgs) &
                          Illuminatus (2 msgs) &
                          Niven/Pournelle (3 msgs) &
                          LeGuin (3 msgs) & MacCaffrey

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: 20 Jul 87 20:17:52 GMT

        Codex Seraphinianus

Described as by "Luigi Serafini", but the Copyright is held by France
Maria Ricci.  This is not a review, but an opinion; and I assume you
know what this book is.

Well, I borrowed it from the local library.  The drawings are
interesting, but the "text" is, in my opinion, a fake.

(a) the page numbering scheme makes no sense

(b) I can't find any obvious regularities in the words.  I looked
    for inflection at the ends and in the middle of words, for
    special initial letters, and for prefixes.  (You know, the tricks
    Ventris applied to Linear B).  No luck.

(c) many sections of text seem to be repetitions of the same symbol
    groups, over and again, with trivial variations.  Nothing like a
    sentence structure.  Moreover, the "letter" distribution is not
    consistent between pages.  This is scribble, not script.

Does anyone have, or recall, any reason for believing the text IS
language, real or invented?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 87 13:15 EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW@waikato.s4cc.symbolics.com>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #334

This message describes the page-numbering scheme of the Codex.  It
answers some questions other SF-lovers have asked about this
particular aspect of the Codex.  It summarizes all we know, and poses
some unanswered questions.

The Codex is in two (originally physically separate) volumes, which I
call vI and vII.  There are eleven major sections, five in vI and six
in vII.  We can guess at the topics of each of the sections, although
some are problematical.

vI: Plants
    Animals
    Nonhuman Bipeds
    Physical Science
    Technology

vII:Humans
    History
    Writing
    Food and Clothing
    Games
    Architecture and Urban Planning

The eleven sections each begin with a right-hand page bearing a
centered title in capitals.  The section title pages also bear a
"topic illustration" excerpted from the section proper.  All the
"internal sections" (that is, all the sections except Plants and
Humans) have a facing blank left-hand page.

Most of the pages of the Codex have centered sequence marks on their
bottom edges.  Exception: most of the section title pages and their
facing pages lack sequence marks.  Exception to the exception: the
section title pages for Humans and Games do bear sequence marks.

The two volumes use the same sequence marks.  That is, the system
starts over again at the beginning of vII.  Every single sequence
mark that is missing from vI (due to pages that don't bear sequence
marks) is supplied in the appropriate place in vII.  vI and vII are
completely consistent with each other (allowing for moderate scribal
variation), so we have a fair degree of confidence that there are no
"mistakes" in the sequence as far as we have it.

The sequence marks fall into groups of 21, which I call "scores".  I
give each score a number starting at s0.  The two volumes end at
slightly different places, both in s8.

The scores are built on a (nearly) invariant system of 21 "digits".
To specify a page, I put a period between score and digit number.
For example, the Death of the Heretic Scribe is in Humans,
II:1.14-15.

Each score falls into two sections, the early part (digits 0-14) and
the late part (digits 15-20).  To derive the sequence mark for a
given page, you (usually) substitute the digit (in the places marked
by x's in the following table) into a template whose fixed features
are vertical strokes (which I write "I"), V's, and upside-down V's
(which I write "A").  Each score has two such templates, one for the
early part and one for the late part.  But in s0, s1, s7, and s8, the
early and late templates are identical.  The templates are:

Score   Early Template  Late Template
0       X               X
1       IX              IX
2       IIX             VIX
3       VIIX            AVIX
4       AVIIX           IAVIX
5       AVIIXX          IAVIXX
6       XIIXX           IXIXX
7       IXXXI           IXXXI
8       IIXXXI          IIXXXI

There are four additional complexities that currently have no good
explanations.

First, two of the digits (1 and 15) look almost identical, and I
cannot tell which differences are significant and which are due to
scribal variation.  Thankfully, 1 is an early digit and 15 is a late
one, so for those scores with differing early and late templates, the
template provides the information that the digit doesn't.

Second, two of the digits (5 and 7) are based on the same A-shape
that is used in the score templates.  Their only apparent difference
is that 7 has a trailing dot that 5 lacks.  When 5 and 7 are
juxtaposed with themselves or with template symbols, they undergo
bewildering transformations.  Dots appear and disappear, V's and A's
turn upside-down, and so on.  I suspect this is all due to "contact
constraints" but I can't formulate them.

Third, two of the digits (9 and 19) are drawn differently in
different scores.  19 gets an extra bump in s6, and 9 gets one in s1,
s6, and s7.  These variations are consistent between the two volumes.

Fourth and finally, there is the matter of the unfortunately
incomplete s8.  What we have of it looks as if it has been hit with
hard gamma radiation.  It shows three serious mutations:

1. An additional sequence mark ("8.05") has been inserted between 8.0
and 8.1.  It looks like "II 203 I", and is the only "heterodigitous"
mark in the whole page sequence.

2. 8.4 is missing.

3. 8.9 is missing.

All these peculiarities are maintained with complete consistency
between vI and vII.

If our moderator deems this article to be of sufficient interest to
actually include it in a digest, I will make another posting in the
near future, arguing that the language itself is spurious, and devoid
of actual linguistic content.  In addition I will try to explain some
design principles that run through this remarkable work.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87 10:44 CST
From: <DAVIDLI%SIMVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (System Manager)
Subject: Illuminatus! and beyond...



   For those who liked the (loosely) science fiction books by Shea
and Wilson [the Illuminatus! trilogy], there are some other books
which might be of interest..

THE CRYING OF LOT 49 by Thomas Pynchon.  Written in the mid-60's,
this reads like an early draft of part of Illuminatus!, complete with
a secret underground postal system and a "possible" conspiracy ...
not "science fiction" per se, but mind-bending anyway.  Recently
re-released, but I can't remember the publishing house.

Falcon Press has been releasing a LOT of books by Robert Anton Wilson
of late (or books with introductions by him ...).  They include:

THE COSMIC TRIGGER
PROMETHEUS RISING
THE NEW INQUISITION -- a mind-opening book dealing with
                       Fundamentalist Materialism .. the "New
                       Inquisition" where Science is the new Church

THE SAPIENS SYSTEM--THE ILLUMINATI CONSPIRACY: THEIR OBJECTIVES,
METHODS AND WHO THEY ARE! by Donald Holmes, M.D.  ... the book reads
like a novel, puts forth several extremely outrageous ideas (in the
vein of Illuminatus!), and is a bit non-satisfying as a novel.  Food
for thought, but I certainly don't take the ideas as "gospel".  A
LARGE introduction by Robert Anton Wilson.

   On another note ... the Schroedinger's Cat series is purposely
nonsensical, in that each book is based on one of the current
theories of Universe in quantum mechanics.  There are some
interesting parallels between these books and what Robert Heinlein
has been doing with his last batch of novels, including the issue of
author/character/reader relationships and what I am beginning to see
as particular "reality-tunnels".

   If I could only recommend ONE of the books to read, it would be
THE NEW INQUISITION.

-- Dave Meile                           davidli@simvax.bitnet

------------------------------

From: chrisa@tekig5.tek.com (Omega)
Subject: Re: Illuminatus! and beyond...
Date: 30 Jul 87 04:32:59 GMT
Reply-to: tekig5!chrisa@RUTGERS.EDU (Omega)

Speaking of the Illuminatus! trilogy...I was in my comic store the
other day when I noticed that someone is coming out with a comic
adaptation of the Illuminatus! books.  I didn't have enough money to
buy it at the time ($2.00!!!) but was intrigued by the idea.  Has
anyone out there read this, and what do you think of it if you have?
--
Chris Andersen (Omega)

UUCP: chrisa@tekadg or chrisa@tekig5

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 12:48:00 EDT
From: <ferman@drcvax.arpa>
Subject: Footfall....NIVEN/POURNELLE.

>Re:   _The Mote in God's Eye_,     Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
>
>   Niven/Pournelle are a *winning team*.  They've collaborated on
>several novels.  I recently bought "Footfall", and it held me rapt
>for days.  I ignored my work (a little), my computer and crossword
>puzzles (completely) and even my love life (well almost!) while
>getting through it.

          I am a true believer in the *winning team* of
Niven/Pournelle I have enjoyed many (there are not that many) of the
books that they have jointly written. ---- HOWEVER >>> "Footfall"
though very entertaining and engrossing is still the standard SF book
of aliens coming to take over the world....and the ending, well lets
just say how many 700+ page books have you read recently that neatly
wrap everything up in the last 3 pages.  Just my opinion.

------------------------------

From: robert@spam.istc.sri.com (Robert Allen)
Subject: Re: Footfall....NIVEN/POURNELLE. (spoilers)
Date: 29 Jul 87 18:58:03 GMT

In article <2874@rutgers.rutgers.edu> ferman@drcvax.arpa writes:
>
>          I am a true believer in the *winning team* of
>Niven/Pournelle I have enjoyed many (there are not that many) of the
>books that they have jointly written. ---- HOWEVER >>> "Footfall"
>though very entertaining and engrossing is still the standard SF
>book of aliens coming to take over the world....and the ending, well
>lets just say how many 700+ page books have you read recently that
>neatly wrap everything up in the last 3 pages.

        I don't know, I never got to the end of Footfall :-).

        After having one major city nuked, hundreds of thousands
        killed, and seeing another major city about to be sacrificed
        to get the aliens, *all* without generating any interest of
        sorrow in me as the reader, I gave up.  This is one of the
        few (maybe the only) books which I've given up on halfway
        through.  It's just my opinion, but I think Footfall is
        dreck.

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Detective Streebeck, I'd like you to meet my Maternal
 Grandmother XXXXXX, and The Virgin Connie Swail"

 *or*

"Grandmother, I'd like you to meet my partner detective Streebeck
 and The Virgin Connie Swail."

Robert Allen,
robert@spam.istc.sri.com

------------------------------

From: maslak@UNIX.SRI.COM (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Footfall....NIVEN/POURNELLE.
Date: 29 Jul 87 22:44:00 GMT
Reply-to: sri-unix!maslak@RUTGERS.EDU (Valerie Maslak)

Agreed that FOOTFALL was a disappointment. I kept waiting for it to
work and it just never did.

Valerie Maslak

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87  20:38:55 EDT
From: FULIGIN%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Peter E. Lee)
Subject: The Earthsea Trilogy

     It seems everyone rates the Earthsea books differently!  It was
Earthsea that first got me hooked on fantasy and SF so many years
ago...  At the time, I thought that the first book was the best, the
second impossibly slow, and the third a close second to the first.
When I re-read the trilogy last year however, my opinions changed.
     This time I found that the pace of 'The Tombs of Atuan' was
entirely appropriate to the story, and not at all boring.  The
rhythms of the book follow the rhythms of life for a young girl, most
of whose existence has been spent in an isolated monastery.  Her life
is not an exciting, biff-pow action adventure.  In 'A Wizard of
Earthsea' Ged's life is one of adventure, strife, and conflict.
Appropriately, the story moves at a much quicker pace.
     I found that the changing rhythms of the stories greatly
enhanced the feeling of atmosphere in each of the books.  This time
through, I liked all three pretty much equally.
     I would highly recommend the series to anyone who hasn't read
them!
                                                         -Peter Lee
Fuligin%UMass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

From: cpf@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book
Date: 29 Jul 87 20:22:27 GMT

In article <110@aiva.ed.ac.uk> jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton)
writes:
>In article <83200018@uiucdcsp> hogge@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:

>>Wait a moment, is there ANYONE living who actually likes the 2nd
>>book of the Earthsea trilogy?

>Well, I agree it's the weakest of the three.  Actually, I think the
>most interesting thing about it is that it could so easily have been
>better even if nothing more "happened" (think horror...).  Why was
>it written at all?

I guess I am very strange.  The second Earthsea book is my favorite
one of the three.  What really makes me strange is that I think that
The Dosadi Experiment is one of Herbert's two best books.  Note that
it should only be read after one has read Whipping Star; too much
background material is not explained.  Whipping Star is one of best
books about the troubles with communicating with a VERY alien life
form, and The Dosadi Experiment is a superb depiction of two very
different cultures.
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman               ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Lab. of Nuclear Studies         Usenet: Not currently available.
Cornell University              Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book
Date: 30 Jul 87 10:00:36 GMT

Many people have written, expressing their various opinions as to the
relative worth of The Tombs of Atuan and The Farthest Shore.  I'd
like to put in my two cents worth, which is that the series as a
whole is far superior to ANY of the three constituent books in it.
There are many arguments that can be made in favor of considering all
three books together, rather than picking out any one of the three
and holding it up as the only part worth reading.  For example,
consider the books as an allegory about the growing-up process.  The
first book, when considered in this light, is about discovering your
limitations, and finding ways to work within them.  The second is
about transcending the boundaries that your upbringing has imposed,
and becoming your own person.  The third book is about accepting
mortality and the necessity of change.  Without any one of the three,
the statement as a whole becomes weaker.

I consider Earthsea to be one of the few real trilogies around (as
opposed to a novel in three volumes, like The Lord of the Rings), and
as one of the major works in LeGuin's output to date.  I am not
willing to pull ANY of the three books out and subject it to special
consideration, positive or negative, not given to each of the other
books as well.

- ----------------
              "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness
Mike Farren    that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..."
hoptoad!farren       Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"

------------------------------

From: everett@hpcvlo.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Subject: Re: New Anne MacCaffrey Interactive Book
Date: 28 Jul 87 16:33:45 GMT

This book is NOT an Anne McCaffrey book.  At the top of the book it
says something along the lines of "In the universe of Anne
McCaffrey's Dragons" but the book is written by someone else.
They're putting out a whole series of these things.  Another I
remember was set in Robert Silverberg's Valentine world.  There were
3 or 4 others on the rack, too.

Everett Kaser
Hewlett-Packard Co.
Corvallis, OR

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #347
Date: 12 Aug 87 0051-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #347
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 0051-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #347
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Aug 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 347

Today's Topics:
               Books - Codex Seraphinianus (7 msgs) &
                       Caiden (3 msgs) & Gunn & Appel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mdharding@watmath.waterloo.edu (Matt)
Subject: That crazy book Codex Seraphinianus...
Date: 31 Jul 87 19:28:19 GMT

I need your help, o power of the net!

I am _extremely_ interested in obtaining a copy of the
afore-mentioned book, Codex Seraphianus by Luigi Serafini. I have
read with great interest all of the postings, but asking my mother
(who is a pseudo-librarian) about it got a flat zip. Apparently this
book is not in print at moment, and all of the book stores I have
tried don't have it. I also heard that there exists two copies of
this book, an expensive hardbound version and a two-volume soft copy.

So, my request is are there any people out there who either:

a) Know where this book can be easily purchased (i.e. a reputable
   mailing address, from the publisher, etc.)

b) Know of any libraries close to myself (address info follows...)
   where I can borrow it from?

c) Could send/give/mail/sell? me a copy?


BTW - I am also interested in all those who have been discussing it
by way of posting their reviews/opinions/info/analyses etc. If anyone
would be kind enough to post a summarized version (or mail it to me)
I would be grateful.

I am also very interested in e-mail ing anyone who has a copy and/or
who is interested in this book. Please get in touch with me if you
want.

Now here's the problem: I'm current at U. of Waterloo and at the end
of August am leaving for a work term in Montreal. Anyone who knows
Mtl. or of any book- stores thereabouts - I am interested in talking
to you.

A very large thank-you for your consideration and possible
co-operation.

                ---  Matt.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 09:25:01 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Hoffman.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Codex Seraphinianus

Publishers Central Bureau is no longer a source for 'Codex
Seraphinianus'.  They returned my order with a notation that "...we
can no longer supply or cannot recognize the item."

  -- Rodney Hoffman

------------------------------

From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: 29 Jul 87 14:38:18 GMT

In article <2842@rutgers.rutgers.edu> Hoffman.es@Xerox.COM writes:

>Publishers Central Bureau is no longer a source for 'Codex
>Seraphinianus'.  They returned my order with a notation that "...we
>can no longer supply or cannot recognize the item."

The same thing happened to me. Does ANYONE have any alternate source
for this book?
                            -- Bill Ingogly

[I got my copy from

   Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller
   Falls Village, CT  06031-5000

 but I didn't notice it in the last catalog (I just skimmed it
 though).  Write him for a catalog or specifically ask him.  Hope
 this helps. -Dave]

------------------------------

From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: 31 Jul 87 21:32:50 GMT
Reply-to: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!quad1!oleg@RUTGERS.EDU (Oleg Kiselev)

>>Publishers Central Bureau is no longer a source for 'Codex
>>Seraphinianus'.
>Does ANYONE have any alternate source for this book?

As of 3 months ago Soap Plant gift/novelty/boutique shop in West
Hollywood, CA., had a "large supply" of "Codex" (according to them).
The price was around $40+.  If there is interest, I could find out
more (it's a bit out of my usual routes)...

--
Oleg Kiselev  --  oleg@quad1.quad.com --
                                {...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

DISCLAIMER: All grammatical and spelling errors are inserted
deliberately to test the software I am developing.  In fact, that is
the only reason I am posting. Yeah, that's the ticket! All my
postings are just test data! Yeah!!

------------------------------

From: ames!aurora!eugene@RUTGERS.EDU (Eugene miya)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: 3 Aug 87 17:07:50 GMT
Reply-to: howard@ames-pioneer.arpa  <Lauri Howard<

<As of 3 months ago Soap Plant gift/novelty/boutique shop in West
<Hollywood, CA., had a "large supply" of "Codex" (according to them).
<The price was around $40+.  If there is interest, I could find out
<more (it's a bit out of my usual routes)...
<
<-- Oleg Kiselev -- oleg@quad1.quad.com --
<                                {...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

Yes, yes I'm interested. An address or phone number will do me just
fine.  Do you know if the Soap Plant had the hardback or softback
edition?

Thanks a lot in advance

Lauri Howard
howard@ames-pioneer.arpa   (I think)

------------------------------

From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: 3 Aug 87 19:34:56 GMT

In article <860@aurora.UUCP> howard@ames-pioneer.arpa  (Lauri Howard)
writes:

>>As of 3 months ago Soap Plant gift/novelty/boutique shop in West
>>Hollywood, CA., had a "large supply" of "Codex" (according to
>>them).  ...
>
>Yes, yes I'm interested. An address or phone number will do me just
>fine.

Oleg, if you'd post this information it would be *greatly*
appreciated since other sources for the Codex seem to have dried up.

                              -- Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

From: putnam@thuban.steinmetz (putnam)
Subject: Re: Codex Seraphinianus
Date: 5 Aug 87 18:34:18 GMT
Reply-to: thuban!putnam@RUTGERS.EDU (putnam)

In article <994@quad1.quad.com> oleg@quad1.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev)
writes:
:>>Publishers Central Bureau is no longer a source for 'Codex
:>>Seraphinianus'.
:>Does ANYONE have any alternate source for this book?
:
:As of 3 months ago Soap Plant gift/novelty/boutique shop in West
:Hollywood, CA., had a "large supply" of "Codex" (according to them).
:The price was around $40+.  If there is interest, I could find out
:more (it's a bit out of my usual routes)...

Alas! No more.


Well, shall we go?  -- jefu (jeff putnam)
Yes, lets go.       -- UUCP: steinmetz!putnam
(They do not move.) -- ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com

------------------------------

From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Ringing a bionic bell?
Date: 29 Jul 87 18:36:48 GMT

In article <2869@rutgers.rutgers.edu> C78KCK@IRISHMVS writes:
>
>I recently found a book entitled "Starbright" by Martin Caidin. I
>thought it was excellent!  I had always thought that his only novel
>was "Cyborg" (The novel that the Six-million Dollar man was
>supposedly based on.)
>  The 'About the Author' section said he was the author of over a
>hundred books so my question is has anyone read anything else by
>him, and was it worth seeking out?

Well for starters, Caidin wrote three other Cyborg Books (Cyborg IV,
High Crystal and Operation Nuke) Then there's Marooned (either the
original Mercury/Gemini/Vostok or the reissue Skylab/XRB/Soyuz).
Much of Caidin's stuff is aviation rather than space based,
particularly the non-fiction (I recommend his books on the B-17 and
P-38 if you like airplanes, and Everything_But_The_Flak even if you
don't).

Jehrico 52 is very good borderline sf (okay so I can't spell).  I
read everything he writes.

++rich
+---------------------------------------------------------------^----+
| Rich Kolker                 The work goes on...             A|W|A  |
| 8519 White Pine Drive        The cause endures...           H|T|H  |
| Manassas Park, VA 22111        The hope still lives...      /|||\  |
| (703)361-1290 (h)           And the dream shall never die. /_|T|_\ |
| (703)749-2315 (w)  (..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker)         " W "  |
+-------------------------------------------------------------V---V--+

------------------------------

From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Ringing a bionic bell?
Date: 29 Jul 87 18:54:50 GMT

In article <2869@rutgers.rutgers.edu> C78KCK@IRISHMVS writes:
>
>I recently found a book entitled "Starbright" by Martin Caidin.  I
>had always thought that his only novel was "Cyborg" The 'About the
>Author' section said he was the author of over a hundred books so my
>question is has anyone read anything else by him, and was it worth
>seeking out?
>R. Allen Jervis

  I have Four Came Back by Martin Caidin listed in my library, but it
must have been a long while since I read it, because nothing right
now comes to mind as to what it's about.  I'll check at home this
evening and see if I can refresh my memory.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 |pyramid!pyrtech!nancym                                             |
 |Disclaimer| It wasn't me, it was my twin sister from Baltimore.    |
 |Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!    |
 |Let's nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!        |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87 22:44:58 PDT
From: <rbw@cs.williams.edu>
Subject: Martin Caiden (Re: Ringing a bionic bell)

The only other book by Martin Caiden that I have read is _Aquarius
Mission_, about a trip by an advanced submarine to a colony of
"humans" under the Pacific.  It's okay reading, especially for
summer, but nothing to really gush about.

Richard Ward
rbw@cs.williams.edu

------------------------------

From: steven@hpldola.hp.com (Steven Sharp)
Subject: Re: Book Request
Date: 9 Jul 87 22:40:15 GMT

Sounds more like The Magicians by James Gunn.  At the end of the
book, the reader is told to look for the publication of the
(presumably fictional) book The Mathematics of Magic written by the
mild mannered mathematician who wants to reveal the mathematical
basis of magic to the world.  The protagonist of the story is a
private eye who is hired to find out the true name of the villain.
He starts getting involved in the supernatural events at a Covention
[sic, but not really].  Normally I wouldn't have added to the flood
of replies to this, but I expect everyone to respond with The
Complete Enchanter.

------------------------------

From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: TIME AFTER TIME by Allen Appel
Date: 29 Jul 87 20:09:26 GMT



                        TIME AFTER TIME by Allen Appel
                Dell, 1987 (1985c), ISBN 0-440-59116-3, $6.95.
                      A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
                       Copyright 1987 Evelyn C. Leeper

     Alex Balfour has been blacking out and having strange dreams
about the Romanovs, the Bolsheviks, and Rasputin.  Or are they
dreams?  When he wakes up with mud on his shoes and Rasputin's coat
on his back, he begins to have his doubts.

     This book is a mixed bag.  The time travel aspect is not, shall
we say, entirely new.  Appel describes time travel accomplished
without mechanisms; just as John Carter "wishes" himself to Mars, so
is Balfour "wished" to Russia.  But is he doing the wishing?
Certainly the clues to the mystery, if mystery it is, are all laid
out for the reader.

     The historical accuracy I am suspicious of.  I cannot believe
that the Okhrana would be as benign as Appel portrays them.  Of
course, it wouldn't do to have his main character killed off halfway
through the novel, but still....  He also fails to convey the chaos
of the times, at least as compared with, say, REDS.  Rasputin serves
no purpose but to give the reader something familiar to latch onto
from that period.  The Cossacks seem very stereotyped.

     What is the most annoying, though, is Appel's tendency to turn a
historical novel into a cookbook.  Several times in the first half,
he lapses into passages such as:

     He ran the knife under the skin of a chicken breast, pulled
     it out at the top, then stripped the breast down.  He severed
     the small tendon at the top of the meat, ran his thumb into
     the pockets between the two fillets, and cut the large one
     free.  With two more quick cuts he removed the small
     fillet....

     He put a cup of rice in a pan and added a cup and a half
     of chicken broth and a half a cup of the white wine he would
     use in the sauce and ultimately drink with the finished meal.
     He brought the mixture to a boil, let it bubble for a minute,
     then covered it and turned it to simmer.  He now had exactly
     seventeen minutes to finish the rest of the meal....

     He turned on the fire under an iron skillet and put in a
     tablespoon of butter and a couple of tablespoons of olive
     oil.  He floured the breasts and placed them gently in the
     pan when the oil and the butter stopped foaming.  He filled a
     pot with water for the asparagus....

     He turned over the chicken.  A brown crust had formed.
     He pressed down on the thickest part of the breast with his
     fork.  The meat should have exactly the same feel as the
     fleshy part of his thumb....

     The chicken was done.  He put it on an overproof plate
     and put it into the warm oven.  He tossed the asparagus into
     the pan [sic] of rapidly boiling water.  Into the pan in
     which he had fried the chicken, he put a half a cup of white
     wine and a half a cup of chicken broth.  He turned up the
     fire, scraping the pan as the liquid foamed....

     When the wine and the chicken broth had been reduced to
     around half, he took the asparagus out of their pan and threw
     them into the sauce.  He checked the rice.  Done.  He put the
     rice on a serving dish, added the chicken from the oven, then
     poured the wine sauce with the asparagus over the whole
     thing.

     Now, could you cook a meal from that or what?  Perhaps Appel was
making some subtle joke on the fact that one of the reasons for the
Russian Revolution was that the peasants were starving while the
nobility ate at lavish banquets, but I doubt it.

     Happily, Appel leaves off from this tendency (though he slips
back into it briefly in a description of how to make hot coffee in a
prison cell with no cooking facilities).  He does have the ability to
convey emotion, as in his simple description of Balfour's reaction to
a hot bath after spending a couple of months in prison: "Once, in
college, he'd gone to bed with two women at the same time.  That had
been great, one of life's treasured memories.  It didn't hold a
candle to this."

     Towards the end, all is explained and the loose ends dealt with
a moderately satisfactory way.  Appel does not really come to terms
with the implications of changing history, and that may be
disappointing to people who are looking for that based on the book's
blurb.  This book has apparently gained much acclaim in mainstream
literary circles (including THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW, which is
quoted extensively on the front and back covers and the first page).
My reaction as a science fiction reader is much the same as my
reaction to Margaret Atwood's THE HANDMAID'S TALE: it is interesting
not for what it says but for how it says it, not for bringing new and
original ideas to the field but for bringing a new perspective to old
ideas.  I think it is important to read science fiction novels
written "outside the ghetto," not (as some might think) to put on an
aura of culture, but to look at a field we know from an outsider's
perspective.  And looking at things differently is, after all, what
most of science fiction is about.

     (This book should not be confused with Karl Alexander's book
TIME AFTER TIME (or the movie of the same name based on it).  That
one was about H. G. Wells traveling FORWARD in time to catch Jack the
Ripper.  Nor it it related to the 1986 John Gielgud movie TIME AFTER
TIME which has nothing to do with science fiction.  Nor is it Jack
Finney's TIME AND AGAIN, which was made into SOMEWHERE IN TIME.  Do
you get the feeling that there's a shocking shortage of time travel
titles?)


                                        Evelyn C. Leeper
                                        (201) 957-2070
                                UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
                                ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #348
Date: 12 Aug 87 0059-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #348
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 0059-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #348
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Aug 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 348

Today's Topics:
                   Books - Brin & Bova (2 msgs) &
                           Zelazny & Stasheff &
                           Trilogies & Rucker

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Brin (Galactics & Proginators)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 87 09:53:55 -0400
From: Mike Thome <mthome@vax.bbn.com>

        All these arguments about why *all* the Galactics in Brins
novels have a "blind spot"/religious awe of The Proginators...  I can
think of two simple reasons for this:
        (1) If the/a main "purpose" of religion is to explain one's
origins... Why am I here?  How did I get here?  Galactics (as opposed
to humanity - even in the setting of these books) know *exactly* and
in detail how and why they exist.  Galactics don't need anything like
human religion, having access to all the facts of their creation.
        (2) But they are still in awe of The Proginators...  remember
that all the Galactics are directly "descended" from the
Proginators...  The first uplifted species (by the P's) would
undoubtably hold their "masters" in awe (even the chimps & fins hold
vast respect for Humans).  It easy to see how the new races, when
they got around to uplifting, might find disrespect of the P's an
undesirable trait in a new species - BREEDING in respect for the
parent races.  This could easily continue more-or-less unabated for a
*long* time, with very few races allowed to get away without inbred
respect.

        Just a thought,

        -Mike Thome
        mthome@bbn.com

------------------------------

From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Alien life - Voyagers
Date: 29 Jul 87 09:15:47 GMT

In article <1329@bute.tcom.stc.co.uk> th@tcom.stc.co.uk (Fred
Flintstone) writes:
>Has anybody read Voyagers by Ben Bova ?

>I thought it was all right, but the main reason I kept reading was
>because I was waiting for the climax. It was not one of those books
>that you just can't put down.
>
>Any comments ?

Try the sequel.

Voyagers II: The alien within.

It concerns most of the same characters a few years later.  It reads
in much the same way, and it is interesting to see how the characters
have developed in the intervening years.

>Tony H.

        Bob.

------------------------------

From: luther@hao.ucar.edu (Ken Luther)
Subject: Ben Bova
Date: 30 Jul 87 15:45:38 GMT

I need help!

I just finished reading Ben Bova's _As On a Darkling Plain_. It was
o.k., and I was wondering if anyone knows if he has written a
followup to it. The story ended, but didn't really *conclude*. There
are a lot of unanswered questions. It's not too important, I just
thought I'd ask.

Interesting note: the reason I bought the book was because I wanted
proof of the blatant flaw on the back. You know how on the back of
books they have a short intro to the story? Well, the back of this
one talks about some mysterious machines on Titan that no one knew
the purpose of. It then went on to say that men wondered who put
these things on one of *Jupiter's* moons.

Yes, it really says that!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
boredom has arrived and conquered.                              /00\
why else would I waste time editing a stupid .signature file?    .
        Ken Luther, data cruncher from HELL!                     ^

------------------------------

From: th@tcom.stc.co.uk
Subject: Amber
Date: 29 Jul 87 09:14:41 GMT

Can anybody help ?
I've heard a lot about the Amber series and so I thought I'd give
them a try. The question is, where to start.  Can anybody tell me the
titles in their correct order ?

 --------------------------------------------------------------
| Tony Hutchinson                               ### ### ###    |
| General Dogsbody                              #    #  #      |
| STC - London/England                          ###  #  #      |
|                                                 #  #  #      |
| Disclaimer: Who, me ?                         ###  #  ###    |

------------------------------

From: haste+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Warlock Heretical (spoilers)
Date: 30 Jul 87 13:49:39 GMT

Stasheff seems to be running out of ideas.

A futurian agent whispers in the Abbots ear.  Gramarye finds itself
split for/against the king.  The king and a bunch of disaffected
nobles find themselves facing each other across a battlefield.  A
not-quite-deus ex machina resolution.

'Warlock' completists should wait until this comes out in second-hand.

-----
Dani Zweig
haste#@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

   If you're going to write, don't pretend to write down.  It's going
to be the best you can do, and it's the fact that it's the best you
can do that kills you! -- Dorothy Parker

------------------------------

From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Real trilogies
Date: 30 Jul 87 19:50:06 GMT

In <2568@hoptoad.uucp>, farren@hoptoad.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes:

> I consider Earthsea to be one of the few real trilogies around (as
> opposed to a novel in three volumes, like The Lord of the Rings).

For another real trilogy try The Fifth Head of Cerberus (by Gene
Wolfe).  The three parts of which it is composed are novella length
rather than novel length, but I believe it otherwise fits the
distinction given above.  Plus (on my subjective scale of goodness)
it ranks up there with Lord of Light, the Riddlemaster of He'd
pseudo-trilogy, Nova, and The Tempest.

Otherwise, as Mike says, and as I was surprised to find on
examination of my bookshelf, these things are unfortunately few and
far between.

David Eppstein, eppstein@cs.columbia.edu,
                Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: MATHENAUTS
Date: 30 Jul 87 15:59:08 GMT

Here's another attempt at a review on my part.  But be warned, I
don't know beans about how-to-review.  Spoilers, if any, will be
utterly minimal.

Also be warned that my views are strongly colored by the fact that I
am a mathematician, and am not impressed by stories that merely
translate a mathematical notion into words somehow.

As a final caveat, I had read the book when it first came out a month
or two ago, and only just recently got my copy back.

                MATHENAUTS: Tales of Mathematical Wonder
                          edited by Rudy Rucker
                   Published in the US by Arbor House
                          $9.95 trade paperback

I suppose I'd rate it [***-] on Chuq's scale.

The cover is lovely.  I'd have preferred something by Fomenko or Varo
myself, but it's no big deal.

This book claims to be the first anthology of mathematical fiction
since Clifton Fadiman's two famous florilegia.  That's probably
correct, and in particular the book can't help be compared to them.

First off, Rucker's introduction is pathetic.  No wonderful
descriptions of mathematics or mathematicians like Fadiman had.
Sentences like "The great thing about mathematical science fiction is
that it gives the reader the weirdness of math without the work." or
"I'd like to sit those scoffers down and make them read [...,] not so
much because they would love the story, but rather because it would
*confirm their worst suspicions*."  make me want to throw up.  Not
even Asimov in the best of 19xx anthologies' introductions causes me
to think "ghetto".  Part of what contributes to this feeling, beyond
the quoted efforts on Rucker's part, was his inability to find
>anything< outside of the mainstream of industrial strength science
fiction, in losing contrast to Fadiman's "here's a bunch of stories
that I liked, and so will you!".  Not even one stupid limerick!
Fadiman found fantastic mathematical items from Plato, Houseman,
Leacock, Beckett, Queneau, etc.  Has Rucker read--or known anyone who
has read--a scrap even of Kafka, Borges, Calvino, Stoppard, T S
Eliot, etc?  It's a rhetorical question, yes, but a loud and
enthusiastic "HECK NO" answer wouldn't surprise me.  He ends his
introduction verbally pullulating over possibilities yet to come--if
Rucker's so bloody impatient, he could go to a library instead of
being such a narrow-minded whinger.  Feh.

To top it off, the introduction contains, would you believe, a fatal
spoiler for Larry Niven's famous story "Convergent Series".  If you
are the type who has to read the introduction early and somehow have
never ever read this Niven story--read the introduction *second*.
Gack.

On to the stories.

Isaac Asimov "1 to 999": a Griswold story--see his _The Union Club
Mysteries_ for more.  For this anthology, it's a complete throwaway.

Norman Kagan "Four Brands of Impossible": the weirdness can't hide
the conventional plot.  I don't know if I like the story or not.

Greg Bear "Tangents": an '80s reworking of "The Captured
Cross-Section", mixed in with somebody's well-known personal tragedy.
It won the Nebula award, yes, but with competition like the first
Asimov Susan Calvin story in XXX years, what's the point?  The story
was perfect on its own--it just suffered from being too familiar.

Rudy Rucker "A New Golden Age": what a surprise!  I liked this story.
After his hatchet job of an introduction, and my worthless attempts
to read _White Light_, I did not expect much from RR.  Then again,
his popularizations are actually quite good.  (I wish authors would
make up their minds as to whether to be good or bad once and for
all!)

Ruth Berman "Professor and Colonel": a throwaway of a sketch.

Anatoly Dnieprov "The Maxwell Equations": an excellent, "different"
story; it's Russian science fiction mixed with horror from the early
'60s.

Martin Gardner "Left or Right?": this is the "Esquire" story
mentioned in _The Ambidextrous Universe_.  It's a shame that MG is
embarrassed by the fact that it's "out of date" scientifically, and,
like _The Island of Five Colors_, deliberately left it out of his own
recent fiction anthology.  Sigh.  It's one classic of a '50s story.

Ian Watson "Immune Dreams": it's in the anthology because the author
phrased his pseudoscience in terms of catastrophe theory.
Whooptie-doo.  Not a bad story, actually, but I couldn't help
comparing it, to its disadvantage, with Norman Spinrad's "Carcinoma
Angels".

Kathryn Cramer "Forbidden Knowledge": experimental weirdness.  It's
whole point, I believe, centers on a famous (to a mathematician,
natch) passage from Irving Kaplansky's classic _Fields and Rings_
that probably sounds multiply bizarre if you don't know any
mathematics.  (KC got the quotation ever so slightly incorrect!)  The
word games were rather obvious from the beginning to me, as was the
Kaplansky connection, and overall, I thought the story was a waste.
I know of exactly one fellow math grad student who liked it.

George Zebrowski "Goedel's Doom": standard science fictional nonsense
about Goedel's theorem.  Delightful popcorn.

Douglas Hofstadter "The Tale of Happiton": reprinted from
_Metamagical Themas_.  This is a prime example of how not to write
social/political satire: it's fictional content is too thin.  It
probably was appropriate within its original context as a parable.
Separated off, it's a loser of a story.

Don Sakers "The Finagle Fiasco": a good, silly story about Murphy's
law.

Larry Niven "Convergent Series": one of the few stories where the
mathematics is a relevant a part of the story.  Not only is it
perhaps the greatest pact-with-the-devil story ever written, it is
one of the best short shorts period.  But you all know that, right?

Martin Gardner "No-Sided Professor": another MG classic with relevant
usage of mathematics.  And another bad reflection on the
anthology--too many of the few good stories are already familiar from
Fadiman.

William F Orr "Euclid Alone": an OK story.  In my copy, the picture
of an Alexander horned sphere came out unimpressively.  I recommend
tracking one down in Hocking&Young _Topology_, the source mentioned
in the story, or better yet, the frontpiece in Rolfsen _Knots&Links_.
The intellectual debates are on level with the net.  (If you don't
recognize the title allusion, you'll find it in the table of contents
of one of the Fadiman books.)

Marc Laidlaw "Love Comes to the Middleman": both a delightful conceit
and story: a universe with a doubly infinite scaling.  (ML also wrote
"Nutrimancer", by the by.)

Robert Sheckley "Miss Mouse and the Fourth Dimension": oh wow wow
what a delightful story!  A genuinely successful cross between the
fourth dimension and the occult.  Any other story I've read along
those lines made me wince.  So why didn't anyone think of this idea
before?  Amazing.

Isaac Asimov "The Feeling of Power": the famous story about the
rediscovery of arithmetic.  You probably read it in Fadiman and a
billyun other places.  Sigh.

Henry H Gross "Cubeworld": an utterly preposterous bit of zaniness.
A definite not-to-be-miss of a story.

Frederik Pohl "Schematic Man": a throwaway plot and story--take it or
leave it.

Gregory Benford "Time's Rub": what a sad waste of fiction.  The whole
point was to work Newcomb's paradox into a story.  There was nothing
else, really.  If you haven't seen the paradox before, the story
might seem profound.  To me, it's a nothing story with a loud
look-at-me! gimmick.

Rudy Rucker "Message Found in a Copy of *Flatland*": again RR
surprised me.  A delightful story.

Norman Kagan "The Mathenauts": his famous story.  Just silliness,
really, with a million in-jokes that only a mathematician could get.
NK took tea jokes seriously and wrote them all down.  I suppose if
one didn't know any better one might find the story profound--I
honestly can't tell at all--but really, having a character shout
"Holy Halmos" is on par with Robin from the TV Batman.  I first read
it in a Judith Merril(sp?) anthology for best of 1965, where it
contained a special glossary for the funny gibber--and again NK was
joshing away.  (And if you don't know what pataphysics is-- sigh,
what's the point of saying the obvious yet again.)

Coincidentally let me mention that the August '87 issue of IASFM (the
one with "Nutrimancer"!) contained *two* excellent stories about
mathematicians, as if to mock RR's weak anthologizing efforts:

Lisa Goldstein "Cassandra's Photographs": a fine story about
you-know-who and hence you-know-what.  My only complaint with the
story *is* the casting of the main character as a mathematician.  It
was done, as far as I can see, because of some retarded stereotype
that mathematicians, by their very nature, lead rigid, patterned,
controlled lives.  If I were Tim Maroney, I'd start drooling
pathetically contra this point at this point, but I'll skip it.
(Actually, the main character is a statistician.  Whatever.)

Kim Stanley Robinson "The Blind Geometer": hardly science fiction
actually, just a near future mystery/thriller.  It's plot is routine
and disposable, but that hardly matters.  The perspective gained from
the first person blind protagonist is intense.  In particular, the
working out of his geometrical cum haptic perspective of the world,
and how it carries the narrator along through the plot, is
remarkable, and remarkably well handled.

ucbvax!brahms!weemba    Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
  A man does not walk down the street giving a haughty twirl to his
  moustaches at the thought of his superiority to some variety of
  deep-sea fishes.                      --G K Chesterton

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #349
Date: 12 Aug 87 2203-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #349
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2203-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #349
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 12 Aug 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 349

Today's Topics:
                      Books - Tolkien (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: harvard!linus!dartvax!aegis@RUTGERS.EDU ( Dartmouth Yearbook)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 29 Jul 87 01:32:52 GMT

  No offense, but I take offense at the West Virginia comments made
of late in reference to J R R T's naming scheme...
  First, phone books are rather easy to come by -- our reference
library has them (albeit in today's world on microfiche) for the
entire US/Canadian phone system.
  And second, inbreeding jokes and all, WV is a pretty nice place,
and no more backwards than Anyothertown, USA on Exit X of the
Interstate Highway network... and before that was strongly tied to
the east and midwest thanks to the economic importance of coal and
timber, along with the topographic fact that two of the five great
passes from east to west across the Appalachians lie on the WV
border.
  Too, while I would be flattered by the notion, I don't know any
Bagginses, or Tooks (old or otherwise) or even Sackville-Bagginses...
I would think that the more originally British-settled areas of the
East coast (upstate NY, NE, Tidewater Virginia) would furnish more
approximate names than the predominately Scotch, German, and, of
late, eastern european stock in WV....

  -- Jeff Wutzke
     Montanus clamantis in deserto      (pun on Dart. motto)

------------------------------

From: harvard!linus!dartvax!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek J. LeLash)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 15 Jul 87 18:39:30 GMT

In article <836@mcgill-vision.UUCP> mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der
Mouse) writes:

>His choice of names also betrays his expertise in the languages from
>which English formed; they all sound correct.  Too many fantasy
>books have names which sound as though the author had picked letters
>out of a hat or something - Tolkien's invariably ring true.
>
>                                       der Mouse

Since I just wrote a research paper on this very subject, I feel
qualified to add my $.02 here.  Tolkien's names "sound right" because
in most cases they *are* right.  For instance, the person- and
place-names in Rohan are Old English words, which fits the
Anglo-Saxon nature of the Riders' culture.
Examples:  Meduseld = 'mead-hall' (this appears in _Beowulf_),
           Eorl = 'king,' meara = 'steed.'
(As an even better confirmation of this, the names of the kings of
 Rohan before the coming of the Riders are in Welsh (Gothic?), the
 language of the earliest residents of the British Isles).

Another example is the naming of the dwarves, all or most of which
was lifted from the Old Norse "Elder Edda" (the 'Bible' of Norse
mythology).  Thus, the names "sound right" for the dwarves, whose
culture is similar in the eyes of the reader to their earthy,
battle-oriented image of Norsemen.  I could go on at length (indeed,
I did :-), but I think my point is made.

--
     Derek LeLash '88     |              USENET News: some people
--------------------------|                 just don't get it.
 {wherever}!dartvax!derek |------------------------------------------
   derek@dartmouth.edu    |==>DISCLAIMER: "What?! Did *I* say that?!?"

------------------------------

From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_atty@RUTGERS.EDU (Clisair)
Subject: Re: hobbit names
Date: 30 Jul 87 16:00:22 GMT

In article <2814@rutgers.rutgers.edu> EVANS%NGSTL1@eg.ti.com writes:
>
>I think the point, as an earlier poster inferred, is that these are
>vintage English country names.  Since Appalachia is a storehouse of
>vintage English country ways, the names could reasonably be expected
>to appear in isolated areas, such as parts of West Virginia.
>
>By the way, modern, citified West Virginians may use common first
>names like John or Mary, but isolated (not just rural, and inbred)
>areas particularly in past times (times of greater isolation) ran to
>fascinatingly odd names.  Suzette Hayden Elgin (did I get the order
>right?) used the Appalachian naming tradition to good effect in her
>books - highly recommended, by the way.
>
>Eleanor evans%ngstl1%ti-eg.csnet@csnet.relay.arpa

Exxxxxxcuuuuusssssseeeeeee  ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I come from an isolated WV town, and that doesn't hold water at all.
My name for instance is William Cleave Drummond. The only part in
there that comes from a place name is Drummond, and it came from the
area around Pirth that used to be known as Drymen.  And right now the
person who is the Earl there is a DRUMMOND !!!!

Also my mothers full name is (maiden) Debra K. Barbara Sue Goad.  See
if you can see a connection there.  And also we were decendents of
Cambelles, Jacksons, Halls, Hulls and some I can't remember right
off.  So please do not say that WV back woods towns follow your
theory.

Wm. "Clisair" Drummond

BITNET: INS_ATTY@JHUVMS.BITNET  UUCP:    seismo!umcp-cs!
        ins_atty@jhunix.BITNET        allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_atty
                                           ihnp4!whuxcc!

*** DISCLAIMER: This is a borrowed account belonging to my         ***
***             roommate.  He is in no way responsible for any of  ***
***             the above garbage (other than by lending this      ***
***             account to me!  Oh yeah, the university isn't      ***
***             responsible for this stuff either.                 ***

------------------------------

From: hplabs!well!booter@RUTGERS.EDU (Elaine Richards)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 16 Jul 87 17:25:24 GMT

In article <2486@uwmcsd1.UUCP> cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP
(Christopher N Maag) writes:
>In article <836@mcgill-vision.UUCP> mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der
>Mouse) write:
>[much deleted...]
>> [About Tolkien's grace and ability with fantasy names]
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virginia
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Flat out false rumor. How would he get a West Virginia phone book? :-)
I was so taken with Tolkien as a teenager that I went on to receive a
BA in Medieval Studies. Many of the names were taken from OE, ME and
Norse literature. Themes were also taken from mythology and
literature.  It was delightful opening Yet Another Legend and finding
a source for Tolkien's work.

For example, Frodo (the name) is based on an epic hero named Frodhi or
Frodi (or maybe even Frodo, per se). Alas, the excellent library at
Columbia University is 3,000 miles away :-<. Frodhi, by the way was
Norse.

Many of the dwarves were named after heroes too.

Sideline. My favorite theme is of the Elves going to the Land of the
Uttermost West. In Irish and Greek(!) mythology, a race of fair,
beautiful and graceful people, known as the Tuatha de Danaan migrated
across Greece and Europe to flee to the Westernmost (known) islands.
These islands were (of course) Ireland and Britain (and the other
littler islands).  I don't know Gaelic, but the name Tuatha de Danaan
refers to the people mentioned as being eternally young.

I could go on for kilobytes, but I really have other stuff to do today
:-)

E
*****

------------------------------

From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (59261-Mike King-x5693)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 17 Jul 87 17:44:05 GMT

In article <2486@uwmcsd1.UUCP> cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP
(Christopher N Maag) writes:
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virginia
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Your professor was obviously reading a humor magazine. :-) As for the
West Virginia angle, I did hear that there was a clan of Tallfellows
living outside of Wheeling, so they may have been in the Phone book.
:-) In reality, Tolkien got all his names out of The Elder Edda, which
is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I remember correctly).  In
fact there was a passage from the Edda that has the list of names of
all the dwarves that accompany Bilbo on his journey in _The Hobbit_.


Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"What's the point of being grown-up if you can't be childish at times
                                                      -Dr. Who
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 18 Jul 87 01:08:37 GMT

>In article <2486@uwmcsd1.UUCP> cmaag@csd4 (Christopher N Maag)
>writes:
>>[Are Tolkien's hobbit names from "real people", eg, WV phone book?]
>Your professor was obviously reading a humor magazine. :-) As for the
>West Virginia angle, I did hear that there was a clan of Tallfellows
>living outside of Wheeling, so they may have been in the Phone book.
>:-) In reality, Tolkien got all his names out of The Elder Edda,
>which is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I remember
>correctly).  In fact there was a passage from the Edda that has the
>list of names of all the dwarves that accompany Bilbo on his journey
>in _The Hobbit_.

This is about the third or fourth useless response I've seen to the
original question.  Yes, the dwarves and "Frodo" and the like came
from some great myths.  But this is well-known, and was almost
certainly mentioned in Christopher's class, so I doubt any of you have
informed him of something he (or the rest of us?) didn't know.  Now on
to the real question: just where did those great hobbit names like
"Baggins", "Took", "Gamgee", "Sackville", "Proudfoot" etc come from?

Considering that until late in this century most of West Virginia was
highly isolated physically--and hence linguistically well-preserved
from colonial days--I don't think it's obvious in the least that the
story is false.  It would have been an ideal place to grab names that
sounded quaint, shirish, and mutually consistent.  Had the story been
about Massachusetts, say, I would have automatically gone along with
the "obvious" rejections.  But West Virginia?  That gives the story a
sophisticated touch.

ucbvax!brahms!weemba    Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720

------------------------------

From: petsd!cjh@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Henrich)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 17 Jul 87 19:36:51 GMT

In article <2486@uwmcsd1.UUCP> cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP
(Christopher N Maag) writes:
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkien/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkien got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virginia
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

Lin Carter, in _Tolkien:_a_Look_Behind_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_, says
(if memory serves) that Tolkien got many of his names (esp. for
dwarves) from Norse literature.  Some of them are in use in
Scandinavian countries today; e.g. there is or recently was a
mathematician named Thorin.  As for the West Virginia telephone book,
it sounds to me like SOMEbody's leg is being pulled.  Tolkien lived in
Oxford, England; how many West Virginia phone books would he find
there?

Regards,
Chris
--
Full-Name:  Christopher J. Henrich
UUCP:       ...!hjuxa!petsd!cjh
US Mail:    MS 313; Concurrent Computer Corporation;
            106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
Phone:      (201) 758-7288
Concurrent Computer Corporation is a Perkin-Elmer company.

------------------------------

From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction
Date: 17 Jul 87 11:32:00 GMT

In article <134@scdpyr.UUCP> faulkner@scdpyr.UUCP (Bill Faulkner)
writes:
>Although there are occasional cross-overs like Faramir seems to be a
>cross of a Gondor type of name and an Elvish one, but given the
>character, such a combo makes sense.  Now if only I could come up
>with such good names.

Faramir, and many other people of Gondor, had elvish names because
their culture was heavily influenced by the elvish culture (this is
stated quite clearly in the books).

        Lars-Henrik Eriksson ...!mcvax!enea!sics!lhe

------------------------------

From: ashton@hpfclm.hp.com (Ashton Delahoussaye)
Subject: Re: tolkien/apartheid
Date: 15 Jul 87 20:11:41 GMT



        I fail to see any relationship between apartheid and Tolkiens
characters.  It has been a long time since my last reading of "Lord of
the Rings", but I got the impression he was attempting to draw an
analogy to the spectrum of light.  White, contains all possible colors
and therefore is greater in power than any other.


                                        Ashton

hpfcla!ashton
Fort Collins, Co.

------------------------------

From: urban@sol.sps.trw.com (Michael Urban)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's Diction
Date: 31 Jul 87 15:27:06 GMT
Reply-to: algol!urban@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael Urban)

In article <2866@rutgers.rutgers.edu> V114NJ32@UBVMS.BITNET writes:
>> (Tolkien's names...)
>>Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virginia telephone book.
>>Can anyone confirm this rumor?

> (and replies with citations from {\sl Letters} describing where some
> of the names came from, with OE etymologies, etc.)
>
> (and observes that)
>D. V. W. James writes:
>> I saw a newspaper article several years ago that alluded to much
>>the same thing, only the state was Kentucky, rather than W. Va.,
>>which he visited for a while.

I would be willing to stake a (small) wager that this whole business
got started when some critic or professor, commenting on the books,
said something like "Tolkien's hobbit names are good rustic English
names--the sort of names you can find in any West Virginia telephone
book".  It would not require too much oral corruption for this to
become the original rumor (sorry, that should be "rumour") that
triggered this discussion.

By the same process, the immediately preceding paragraph will someday
be quoted as a definitive statement that such a quotation actually
exists and was the basis for the rumor.

>Questions:     Does anyone know if _An Introduction to Elvish_ will
>                be revised in the light of the new info in the
>                Histories of Middle Earth?
>

Some of the original contributors to the Introduction (Paula Marmor,
Bill Weldon) have recently contacted Jim Allen to start work on just
such a project.  It is hoped that a new book could be released for the
Tolkien Centennial in 1991(?)  I was hoping to pursue the matter at
this year's Mythcon but was unable to attend at the last minute
(sigh!)  I think it is time for someone (maybe myself) to get off the
dime and start pushing the creative people in the right directions.
Desktop publishing has made the economics of such a venture entirely
different from the days of the original edition.

>                Any opinions on Guy Kay's Fionavar Tapestry books? I
>                still am trying to find the third.

Enjoyable, but a bit too eclectic a hodge-podge of mythologies to
swallow easily.  It is reminiscent of early Alan Garner stories in
this respect.  The third book is available in inexpensive hardcover
from SF Book Club.  I have not quite finished, but there are enough
individual scenes of depth and power to rate a tentative "thumbs up"
from this reader.

--
   Mike Urban
        ...!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban

"You're in a maze of twisty UUCP connections, all alike"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #350
Date: 12 Aug 87 2233-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #350
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2233-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #350
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 350

Today's Topics:
             Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) &
                          Star Cops (2 msgs) &
                          The Prisoner (8 msgs) &
                          Hitchcock

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!ist!phil@RUTGERS.EDU (Philip Crabtree)
Subject: Dr. Who
Date: 27 Jul 87 12:23:34 GMT

Is there anybody out there (this is particularly addressed to those of
you in Australia or New Zealand) who (a) watches Dr. Who repeats and
(b) has a (VHS) video recorder? If so I would be delighted to hear
from you re exchange of material. Please state what you would like
from current English programmes. I will pay for them if there is
nothing on you currently want.

Phil (phil@ist.co.uk or mcvax!ukc!ist!phil)

------------------------------

From: harvard!linus!dartvax!finesse@RUTGERS.EDU (Amit Malhotra)
Subject: Re: DR.WHO ON VIDEO - JULY '87 (ADD'L INFO)
Date: 15 Jul 87 05:49:46 GMT

In article <2491@rutgers.rutgers.edu> CHAPMAN@stripe.sri.com writes:
>From: Walter Chapman <CHAPMAN@stripe.sri.com>
>
>Re: My last msg on CBS/FOX Dr. Who releases -- the suggested
>retail price on the episodes is $ 19.98 each so check your
>major discounters to maybe save a dollar or two.
>
>Walter Chapman
>-------


Question:

By episodes, do you mean that each story is shown as an uncut two-hour
(or however long they really are) segment, or is it split up to
preserve the suspense of each ending?

Also, how many episodes are currently available?

                                       Theodor Van Helsing

p.s. if possible, please e-mail me a response, for I do not check up
as regularly on newsgroups as I do on mail.
Thanks muchly...

------------------------------

From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Colours for Daleks and Cybermen
Date: 17 Jul 87 14:29:47 GMT

In article <42000028@pyr1>, seasterb@Cs.Ucl.ac.uk writes:
>
> Black jug-handles on the head if I remember correctly (and its been
> a long time!) Also I seem to remember seeing gold trimmings on the
> chest.

I remember darker "jug handles" on earlier Cybermen. What I forgot to
mention in my request is that the models depict the latest version, as
seen in the episode where Adric died. Did the leader of this variant
also have black ears?

Also, this type like using hand-held weapons in preference to the
helmet-mounted gun in previous types. Anyone have any good reasons? I
would have thought that the helmet-mounted gun is more accurate -
where you look, you shoot.
--
 "Keyboard? Tis quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt                         |  JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Star Cops  (Now production of DW)
Date: 23 Jul 87 19:08:44 GMT

In article <531@its63b.ed.ac.uk>, bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob
Gray) writes:
> (Dr Who is made by the children's programmes dept, and Blake's
> seven and Star Trek are regarded by the BBC as programmes aimed at
> the 8-16 age group.)

I believe -- unless things have changed in the last year or so that
"Doctor Who" is also produced by the BBC Drama series department --
at least the Producer said so *very* emphatically on a number of
times back then.  Semi-exact quote "The show is *not* a production of
the children's series department -- it is under the BBC Drama series
department.  It is considered *family* entertainment."  Have things
changed?

--
Jean Airey: US Mail 1306 W. Illinois, Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

From: aw@doc.imperial.ac.uk (Andrew Weeks)
Subject: Star Cops
Date: 15 Jul 87 15:19:31 GMT

Bob Neumann asks :

> Is this new series produced by Gerry Anderson (of Space:1999, UFO,
> and Thunderbirds, etc)?

No,it isn't. It's created/written by Chris Boucher, who has worked on
Dr.Who and Blake's 7, as well as detective series like Bergerac and
Shoestring.

The show may never get to the USA, last night's episode (the second)
was heavily political in its storyline, with spies, assassinations
and secret SDI satellites.

------------------------------

From: vdsvax.steinmetz!thearlin@RUTGERS.EDU (Kurt Thearling)
Subject: THE PRISONER
Date: 23 Jul 87 14:07:37 GMT

Can anyone out there tell me what the story is behind the show "THE
PRISONER."  It recently started showing on a PBS station in Albany.
I have yet to be able to figure out what the underlying story is.

Last night there was an episode in which number 2 tries to confuse
number 6 into telling him why he resigned.  What did he resign from?
Was number 2 previously number 1?  If not, who is number 1?  What do
the giant killer balloons signify?  So far this very interesting show
has left me very confused.  Hopefully someone out there will be able
to enlighten me.

------------------------------

From: jbuck@epimass.epi.com (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 24 Jul 87 04:16:20 GMT

In article <2050@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP>
thearlin@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP (Kurt Thearling) writes:
>     Can anyone out there tell me what the story is behind the show
>     "THE PRISONER."

That would be telling.

>     Last night there was an episode in which number 2 tries to
>     confuse number 6 into telling him why he resigned.  What did he
>     resign from?  Was number 2 previously number 1?  If not, who is
>     number 1?

You are number six.

>     What do the giant killer balloons signify?  So far this very
>     interesting show has left me very confused.  Hopefully someone
>     out there will be able to enlighten me.

Information, information!

--
- Joe Buck    jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM
         {seismo,ucbvax,sun,decwrl,<smart-site>}!epimass.epi.com!jbuck
         Old arpa mailers: jbuck%epimass.EPI.COM@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

From: craig@think.com (Craig Stanfill)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 24 Jul 87 12:48:58 GMT
Reply-to: craig@godot.think.com (Craig Stanfill)

In article <2050@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP>
thearlin@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP (Kurt Thearling) writes:
>
>     Can anyone out there tell me what the story is behind the show
>     "THE PRISONER."  It recently started showing on a PBS station
>     in Albany.  I have yet to be able to figure out what the
>     underlying story is.
>
>     Last night there was an episode in which number 2 tries to
>     confuse number 6 into telling him why he resigned.  What did he
>     resign from?  Was number 2 previously number 1?  If not, who is
>     number 1?  What do the giant killer balloons signify?  So far
>     this very interesting show has left me very confused.
>     Hopefully someone out there will be able to enlighten me.

A great many things in The Prisoner are intentionally left unclear.
I will, however, explain what is known.  First, understand that The
Prisoner is a continuation of Secret Agent, a very popular British
spy program (to some extent, I believe, James Bond, The Man from
Uncle, and Get Smart are parodies of Secret Agent).  Eventually, the
series was canceled.  Some time later, the makers decided to have
some fun.

The Secret Agent had resigned over some matter of principle (the
audience never finds out, either), but before he could get out of
London, someone (It is never made entirely clear who) kidnapped him
and sent him to The Island, ostensibly to find out why he resigned
(at least, that is what they keep asking him).  Most of the other
questions you asked are enigmatic at best.  For example, Number 2
(who keeps changing) is in charge of running the Island.  One may
guess that, logically, Number 2 must report to Number 1, but this is
never made clear.  The bubbles (Rover) are the jailers; the Island's
controllers send them after escapees.  That is all that is known,
except that you can't fight Rover.  We never really find out who runs
the Island, or why.

What is The Prisoner about?  Like all great fiction, many things, but
chiefly (I think) about the freedom of man and the subjectivity of
reality.


                                Be Seeing You

                                Craig Stanfill

------------------------------

From: ames!lll-tis!ohlone!nelson@RUTGERS.EDU (Bron Nelson)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 24 Jul 87 23:30:15 GMT

In article <6841@think.UUCP>, craig@think.COM (Craig Stanfill)
writes:
> In article <2050@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP>
> thearlin@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP (Kurt Thearling) writes:
> >     Can anyone out there tell me what the story is behind the show
> >     "THE PRISONER."
>
> A great many things in The Prisoner are intentionally left unclear.
> [...]
> The Secret Agent had resigned over some matter of principle (the
> audience never finds out, either),
> [He is kidnapped and]
> sent him to The Island [sic], ostensibly to find out why he
> resigned (at least, that is what they keep asking him).
>
> What is The Prisoner about?  Like all great fiction, many things,
> but chiefly (I think) about the freedom of man and the subjectivity
> of reality.


It is seen in either the first or second episode (I forget which)
that the people running the Village want "information" (as the
introduction keeps repeating).  They want EVERYTHING that The
Prisoner knows.  He refuses to talk, even to the point of not telling
them why he resigned (a relatively innocuous and probably meaningless
point).  This piece of information is important only because the
people running the Village feel that if they can force/trick the
information out of him, this will provide the crack in his armor they
need to break him completely.

*I* think The Prisoner is chiefly about the individual vs. the
collective; the rights of one person vs. the rights of society;
individual self-determination vs. societal control; etc.
- -----------------------
Bron Nelson     {ihnp4, lll-lcc}!ohlone!nelson
Not the opinions of Cray Research

------------------------------

From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 25 Jul 87 13:52:10 GMT

The Prisoner in a nutshell, eh?  Well, the beauty of that beast is
that it's completely open to interpretation.  Everything is symbolic,
but of what it's hard to say.  However, the basic premise is this:
Number 6, a secret agent, resigned from a British Intelligence
organization -- for his own reasons.  The Village seems to be a place
where the Brits -- or possibly the Other Side -- sequester people who
know too much.  Number 2's job is to find out why Number 6 left his
former position.  Number 6 doesn't believe he owes an explanation to
anyone and only wants his privacy and his freedom restored.  As to
who Number One is, stay tuned.  We get to meet him/her in the final
episode, "Fall Out."

Patrick McGoohan used to star in a series variously known as DANGER
MAN and SECRET AGENT MAN in which he played a spy named John Drake.
There is a school of thought that believes that Number 6 is, in fact,
Drake, and that THE PRISONER is a sequel to McGoohan's earlier
series.

The bottom line is this: see in the PRISONER what you want to see in
it.  It's a tale of the human spirit told with allegory, metaphor,
and symbolism.  Not your usual TV fare.

Hope this has helped some.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in Toronto
c/o
--

                                        Tom Nadas

UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!cpro!asgard@RUTGERS.EDU (J.R. Stoner)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 28 Jul 87 02:04:39 GMT

in article <5140@utcsri.UUCP>, tom@utcsri.UUCP says:
> Patrick McGoohan used to star in a series variously known as DANGER
> MAN and SECRET AGENT MAN in which he played a spy named John Drake.
> There is a school of thought that believes that Number 6 is, in
> fact, Drake, and that THE PRISONER is a sequel to McGoohan's
> earlier series.

There is some tangible evidence that this is true, if you look
carefully.

Take a good look at what Leo McKern a.k.a. the Original Number Two,
says to Number Six in "Degree Absolute" during the sequence of the
public school.  If I say any more than this That Would Be Telling.

Be seeing you.
--
"To prevent having to tell fools to RTFM don't let on you WTFM to
begin with."
J.R. Stoner     asgard@cpro.UUCP    asgard@wotan.UUCP
P.S. I help CompuPro make computers.  They do not help me make my
opinions.

------------------------------

From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 28 Jul 87 13:50:40 GMT

****** SPOILER WARNING *****

In article <5140@utcsri.UUCP> tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes:
>Patrick McGoohan used to star in a series variously known as DANGER
>MAN and SECRET AGENT MAN in which he played a spy named John Drake.
>There is a school of thought that believes that Number 6 is, in
>fact, Drake, and that THE PRISONER is a sequel to McGoohan's earlier
>series.

There is also the Mete-interpretation of the series I have not seen
mentioned in this news group.

Patrick McGoohan resigned from playing the part of SECRET AGENT
without giving much of a reason why. The agent was also killed off in
the last episode to prevent the resurrection of the series. This
would mean Number 6 is, in fact Patrick McGoohan playing himself. The
organization is the TV company he resigned from, and the village is a
film set.  Rover is just a special effect :->

>
>Robert J. Sawyer
>in Toronto
        Bob.

------------------------------

From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: THE PRISONER
Date: 29 Jul 87 22:17:08 GMT

In article <344@cpro.UUCP> asgard@cpro.UUCP (J.R. Stoner) writes:
>in article <5140@utcsri.UUCP>, tom@utcsri.UUCP says:
>>  There is a school of thought that believes that
>> Number 6 is, in fact, Drake
>There is some tangible evidence that this is true, if you look
>carefully.  Take a good look at what Leo McKern a.k.a. the Original
>Number Two, says to Number Six in "Degree Absolute" during the
>sequence of the public school..

 I will Tell All and reveal that this presumably refers to a line
where the "headmaster" says what sounds like "Report to my study in
the morning--Bake!" Some viewers concluded that he was addressing the
Prisoner as "Drake". But during the recent WNET Prisoner marathon, it
was pointed out that the script actually says "Report... in the
morning BREAK." No cigar. We want information!

--
    Will Linden
    {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
    {sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
    {cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1987 14:25 EST
From: Stephen Dea Fultz <ISDF400%INDYCMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Two part show.

    I was watching the Alfred Hitchcock Hour on USA cable a while
back and the show appeared to be the first part of a two part show.
The odd part about this is that second part of the show is not a
Hitchcock show but a Twilight Zone.  The Hitchcock story has a little
boy go to a store and gain powers that let him change the environment
around him.  The show ends with the parents doing what ever the boy
wants. The second part is a Twilight episode from the movie where the
boy controls his family with his powers.  Is there a story that these
were both based on?  Did The Twilight Zone writers see the Hitchcock
show and decide to finish it?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #351
Date: 12 Aug 87 2244-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #351
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2244-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #351
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 351

Today's Topics:
                 Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 12:47:20 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693)
Subject: Re: Star Trek novels

From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
<ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I have to take exception with the statement that Star Trek novels
>are badly written.  True, there are some turkeys (Mutiny on the
>Enterprise springs to mind), but others like THE FINAL REFLECTION
>and THE WOUNDED SKY are classics in they're own right, not just as
>part of a classic series (no flames please).  The current novel,
>DREAMS OF THE RAVEN, is an excellent look at Dr. McCoy.

I agree that there are some very good Star Trek novels out there,
especially _The Wounded Sky_ and _Black Fire_, however, I don't
think that _Dreams of the Raven_ was very good.  Throughout the
first part of the novel Kirk's characterization is almost paranoid
schizophrenic.  Most of his lines consist of "It's an attack,
they're out to kill us!"

On the other hand, I do like McCoy's characterization.  But even he
does not react as consistently with his character in other novels
and other episodes.  What I mean is McCoy is usually the most
*human* character on the Enterprise.  He reacts to most situations
as a typical human would.  Spock remains very aloof, and Kirk always
acts heroically.  McCoy is never afraid to admit to his human
weaknesses, yet he is never afraid to make his best effort.  In
_Dreams_, McCoy believes he is still in his mid-20's and acts as
though he hasn't the experience he's picked up while zipping around
the galaxy.  This is valid due to his amnesia.  However, he
continually refuses to accept that he has been Chief Medical
Officer.  All he wants to do is go back to Earth and hide in the
back-woods.  This is not consistent with the strong character with
which we are familiar: one who accepts his limitations and attempts
to do his best anyway.

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 87 12:36 EDT
From: David H. Kaufman <Sr.Kaufman@SPEECH.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: On Star Trek chain of command and other foolishness

From: seismo!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
>[...]
>Now, my theory is that just prior to the first ST episode, a meteor
>struck the brigde while the Exec, the CNO and the CCO was on it.
>Unable to get replacements, Kirk had Spock assume the duties of the
>Exec and allowed Sulu and Uhura to carry on as department heads.
>
>Of course, this still does not explain Kirk's gallavanting about...

But it most certainly does!  After such a major disaster at the
beginning of a five-year cruise, Kirk and Spock were ordered to
spend as little time as possible on the bridge, since it was so
poorly protected against meteors and other cosmic debris.  In the
opinion of Starfleet Command, the surface of a planet - any planet -
would be safer than the bridge...

David H. Kaufman
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
SR.Kaufman%Speech@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 01:25:08 GMT
From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Star Trek novels

mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693) writes:
> I agree that there are some very good Star Trek novels out there,
> especially _The Wounded Sky_ and _Black Fire_,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. There are excellent Star Trek
novels out there, but _Black Fire_ is *not* one of them. The
characterizations were trite and simply stupid, and the "science,"
particularly the astronomy, was ridiculous even by Star Trek's
standards.

(While I do not have direct quotations to back up my allegations at
hand, I will as soon as I get home tonight. If you want chapter and
verse, I'll give them to you.)

Karen Williams

------------------------------

Date: Mon 13 Jul 87 14:47:50-CDT
From: SO.DANAK@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Re: Black Fire

Regarding the dismissal of some Star Trek novels as "trash":

Lighten up!  Since when is a novel's value based solely on its
faithfulness to scientific principles?

I don't know about you, but I read these novels for ENTERTAINMENT
and I enjoy the lightheartedness of Black Fire, Ishmael, Covenant of
the Crown, etc.  Those that delve into deep,
philosophical-psychological issues are fine, but not really what I
am looking for.

To each his/her own, but it seems that some folks take ST a bit
farther than the creators intended.

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 Jul 87 21:02:30-CDT
From: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re:re: Star Trek Novels (medium)

>From: williams@puff.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams)
>mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693) writes:
>> I agree that there are some very good Star Trek novels out there,
>> especially _The Wounded Sky_ and _Black Fire_,
>I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. There are excellent Star Trek
>novels out there, but _Black Fire_ is *not* one of them. The
>characterizations were trite and simply stupid, and the "science,"
>particularly the astronomy, was ridiculous even by Star Trek's
>standards.
>
>(While I do not have direct quotations to back up my allegations at
>hand, I will as soon as I get home tonight. If you want chapter and
>verse, I'll give them to you.)

Bravo, but you were too kind.  _Blackfire_ was absolutely laughable,
but as such, it was fairly amusing, if you take it at face value as
some crazy fan's degenerate fantasy, and *NOT* part of the
continuity.  Can I talk about ****WORST**** Star Trek?
_Dreadnought_ , by Diane Carey, takes the prize in my book.  We are
treated to lengthy descriptions of so-and-so's `tawny locks' or
`limpid pools of amber'.  The main character is not even in uniform
until 3/4 of the way into the book.  She prances about in a tight
fitting jumpsuit a la Bill Theiss, showing off (and I quote) "too
much of my figure, not enough of my abilities, and none of my rank"
GET REAL!  This `woman' is supposed to be command material in
Starfleet?????  I probably could have lived a satisfied existence if
I had never learned that Captain Kirk had amber flecks in his hazel
eyes.  _Battlestations_ was just as awful.  I couldn't even read it,
and boy I've read some pretty awful Star Trek.  That's what
compulsive behavior is.

I was going to ask how some of this dreck gets published, but the
answer is obvious.  I *loathed* the book, but I *bought* it without
knowing whether it was any good.  How can we get them (Pocket Books)
to subscribe to a very minimal measure of quality?  They *know*
we'll buy the books, just like we sat through that awful first film
eight times apiece.

But I am kind of curious to know if anyone liked the Diane Carey
books.  Because they just struck me as being somebody's wild
wish-fulfillment; the narrator was so obviously the author, who
wanted *real* bad to be part of the Enterprise's command structure.
That's another point about so many of these books.  A friend and I
have a great time playing `spot the author'.  Sort of the same idea
as trying to find Hitchcock in his films.  In the better ST novels,
it's difficult if not impossible.  But in so many of these books
there is some plucky lass (sorry, I haven't noticed any plucky lads,
nothing sexist, just the facts) whose cunning, wit, and general good
cheer saves the Enterprise from imminent doom.  If the authors, who
often seem to be lucky fans, need to write themselves into the plot,
I just wish they'd write themselves into the background and not the
pivotal role.  And I'm not saying they shouldn't create new ST
characters.  I just get tired of reading some fan's fantasy.  Give
me some straight ST.

Any comments, criticisms, flames, etc., are cheerfully accepted.  I
hated the book, and will continue to do so, but I'm sure someone
liked it.  My loathing is nothing *personal*.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jul 87 14:35:53 edt
From: cd0v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham)
Subject: STTNG - TV stations
Cc: wahl.es@xerox.com, rkolker%netxcom.UUCP@seismo.css.gov

We all know by now that STTNG will be shown on local stations rather
than on one of the Big Three networks. Does anyone out there have a
list of the stations which will be showing it? Thanks.

Chris Durham
Arpa: cd0v@andrew.cmu.edu
BitNet: cd0v@cmuccvma
usenet: ...!{seismo, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!cd0v

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 09:11:37 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Star Trek novels

mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693) writes:
> effort.  In _Dreams_, McCoy believes he is still in his mid-20's
> and acts as though he hasn't the experience he's picked up while
> zipping around the galaxy.  This is valid due to his amnesia.
> However, he continually refuses to accept that he has been Chief
> Medical Officer.  All he wants to do is go back to Earth and hide
> in the back-woods.  This is not consistent with the strong
> character with which we are familiar: one who accepts his
> limitations and attempts to do his best anyway.

If McCoy's reluctant entry into "Star Trek - The Motion Picture" is
anything to go by, that is not just consistent, but is exactly what
he did do!

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jul 87 13:06:37 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek V

I have an idea for the plot of Star Trek 5. As a further punishment
for getting the Enterprise 1 blown up, Kirk is assign to test a new
kind of drive that moves the ship from one place to another
instantly. The test is to go to the next galaxy over and sow
navigation beacons for the next ships.  Unfortunately, when Kirk
leaves the Starbase where it was installed, he is attacked by
Klingons who are still mad at him about Genesis.  Mr. Sulu does some
evasive maneuvers that blow one of the Klingons up, and tricks the
rest of them into diving into a nearby star while the Enterprise uses
the new drive to get away. When they finally get a chance to get out
of the galaxy, they find out that the drive is causing a breach into
a universe which has no entropy.  Kirk takes the designer of the
drive, who came along for the tests, to the breach to try to seal it.
Anyone who wants to read the book I swiped this plot from, it's The
Wounded Sky, by Diane Duane. Sorry if I gave anything away....


st801179%brownvm.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: STTNG - TV stations
Date: 21 Jul 87 02:55:42 GMT

cd0v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Durham) writes:
>We all know by now that STTNG will be shown on local stations rather
>than on one of the Big Three networks. Does anyone out there have a
>list of the stations which will be showing it? Thanks.

From what I understand, the first stations to get ST:TNG will be
those stations which are currently carrying reruns of the original ST
series.  I'm not absolutely positive about this, but it is what I've
heard.
                               --Dave

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
|David Guntner  UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!   |
|                       pnet02!davidg                               |
|               INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM                         |
|                                                                   |
|         "We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when...." |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

------------------------------

From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: STTNG - TV stations
Date: 21 Jul 87 12:22:41 GMT

The BBC have bought the series and have scheduled it for showing,
wait for it, in the Autumn season. 1988.

I suggest anyone who feels strongly about waiting for more than a
year to see the series, write to the BBC and complain.
        Bob.

------------------------------

From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Star Trek novels
Date: 17 Jul 87 09:11:37 GMT

In article <578@cblpf.ATT.COM>, mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693) writes:
> effort.  In _Dreams_, McCoy believes he is still in his mid-20's
> and acts as though he hasn't the experience he's picked up while
> zipping around the galaxy.  This is valid due to his amnesia.
> However, he continually refuses to accept that he has been Chief
> Medical Officer.  All he wants to do is go back to Earth and hide
> in the back-woods.  This is not consistent with the strong
> character with which we are familiar: one who accepts his
> limitations and attempts to do his best anyway.

If McCoy's reluctant entry into "Star Trek - The Motion Picture" is
anything to go by, that is not just consistent, but is exactly what
he did do!

Anyone who thinks this belongs on rec.arts.startrek may put it there
if they want. We on this side of the Atlantic can't, as we don't get
it.
--
 "Keyboard? Tis quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt                         |  JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #352
Date: 12 Aug 87 2302-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #352
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2302-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #352
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 352

Today's Topics:
          Bibliography - Cthulhu Mythos Part01/04 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess
From: partner))
Subject: Cthulhu Mythos Bibliography (Part01/03: Notes)
Date: 31 Jul 87 18:05:07 GMT

                     A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS
                            by Chris Jarocha-Ernst

  The Cthulhu Mythos is a name given to the collected information
about a set of alien beings, invented by H. P. Lovecraft, his
friends, and his admirers.  It is what is today termed a "shared
world": a number of writers use the same settings, characters,
objects, and concepts in otherwise unrelated stories (i.e., it's not
necessarily a series, though some series have been set in the
Mythos).

  In the world of the Cthulhu Mythos, two groups of alien beings
fought a cosmic war eons ago.  The victors, a benevolent race who
came to be known as the Elder Gods, imprisoned their foes, the
malevolent Great Old Ones, across time and space.  On Earth, primal
memories of the struggle gave birth to many of humanity's diverse
mythologies.  As always, there were those who would exchange their
very souls for a taste of terrestrial power, and who dared to record
their rites in blasphemous books, and so the worship of the Great Old
Ones began and continues in secrecy to this day.  Occasionally, an
innocent learns the horrendous truths behind the sheer veil of
reality and glimpses the ultratelluric chasms that exist, unknown to
most, beneath our mundane existence.  The Cthulhu Mythos stories
chronicle the adventures of such unfortunates.

  SOME NOTES ON THE BIBLIOGRAPHY:

   1. It's very idiosyncratic.  It's mostly based on Jack Chalker's
      bibliography in THE DARK BROTHERHOOD AND OTHER PIECES, by H. P.
      Lovecraft and Divers Hands, (Sauk City, WI: Arkham House),
      1966, Lin Carter's bibliography in his LOVECRAFT: A LOOK BEHIND
      THE "CTHULHU MYTHOS", (NY: Ballantine Books), 1972, and the
      contents of my own library.  (I have never seen a copy of the
      Berglund/Weinberg READER'S GUIDE.  Pointers to it are most
      welcome.)

   2. I'm trying for the first publication of *everything*, rather
      than every publication of a selected few.  There are plenty of
      HPL bibliographies available that cover every publication of
      his works.  I want *every* Cthulhu Mythos-related story, no
      matter who wrote it.  At the very least, you can use these
      titles in conjunction with your library's SHORT STORY INDEX to
      find more accessible places of publication.

   3. Note that I take a very liberal view as to what constitutes a
      Mythos story.  In general, if it mentions something found in
      another, accepted Mythos story, it, too, is a Mythos story, and
      mentions in yet other stories of things found in it make them
      Mythos stories, too.  Merely invoking the atmosphere of the
      Mythos (or being a pastiche of HPL's style) is not enough.
      Being included in a collection of Cthulhu Mythos stories
      usually is, though I make note that a particular story may not
      contain a direct Mythos reference.

   4. A judgment call on recurring people, places, and things: If it
      was *created* for the Mythos, or if the majority of its
      appearances are Mythos-related, I include all appearances.
      Examples are Brian Lumley's Titus Crow, Ramsey Campbell's
      Brichester and the Severn Valley, and HPL's Arkham and
      Necronomicon.

      An example of a character *not* so included is Robert E.
      Howard's King Kull, who was created outside of the Mythos, and
      whose only link to the Mythos is his encounter with the Serpent
      People in one of his adventures.  If future Mythos stories make
      more references to Valusia, et al, this may change.  In the
      meantime, he gets a note.

      Similarly, mention of ghouls, the wendigo, or other elements of
      existing mythologies which have been incorporated into the
      Mythos is not enough to get a story included.  These things
      must either be mentioned in connection with other Mythos
      elements, or they must be part of a consistent use of such
      elements, where one use is in connection with the Mythos.  For
      example, HPL mentions Queen Nitocris in a couple of stories,
      including one Mythos story.  Since his portrayal of Nitocris is
      consistent, I have included her name as a possible Mythos
      element.  If another author uses Nitocris in a work without
      other Mythos connections (for example, Tennessee Williams),
      that is not enough to include the work in this bibliography.

   5. The notes do not cover *every* term mentioned in a particular
      work, though in some cases I've tried for every term.  At the
      very least, there's enough to show a linkage to other Mythos
      works.  Where a source has indicated that a work is
      Mythos-related, but I haven't read that work, "$" is given as
      with the notes.  (A glossary of Mythos terms will be
      forthcoming, one of these days.)

   6. I've favored professional publication over amateur/little
      press, mostly because the pro mags are more readily available.

   7. I've included some anthologies of Mythos stories because they
      provide an opportunity to collect a number of Mythos stories at
      one time, and so readers should be aware of them.  I have not
      included anthologies of just HPL's stories, as I feel these
      stories are more readily available in a number of places.

   8. Chalk up any other inconsistencies/oddities to Note 1.

  I gladly welcome any corrections, additions, news of forthcoming
related items, etc.  If you have a copy of something I haven't read,
*please* tell me what's in it.  I have most of the Chaosium CALL OF
CTHULHU game supplements, but they are not included here as they
aren't "fiction".  (I'll still welcome news about them, though.)  You
are welcome to argue why a particular work should be added to this
bibliography.  I won't listen to arguments regarding why a work
should be *removed* from it, though; I've given my reasons for
inclusion above.

  Cthulhu fthagn!
--
Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, cbosgd, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!
       elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess partner))
Subject: Cthulhu Mythos Bibliography (Entries 1-58)
Date: 31 Jul 87 18:06:45 GMT


                     A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS
                            by Chris Jarocha-Ernst

1.    Herb Arnold, "Those Beneath the Waves", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny
      Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Mentions
      Cthulhu, Deep Ones

2.    Al Attanasio, "The Elder Sign", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson, ed.,
      Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Mentions Elder Sign,
      R'lyeh

3.    A. A. Attanasio, "The Star Pools", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS,
      Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.  Mentions ?

4.    Edward P. Berglund, editor, THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU, DAW Books, 1976,
      Contains ''The Fairground Horror'', ''All-Eye'', ''The Tugging'', ''Where
      Yidhra Walks'', ''The Feaster from Afar'', ''Zoth-Ommog'', ''Darkness, My
      Name Is'', ''The Terror from the Depths''

5.    Elizabeth Berkeley and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Crawling Chaos", The United
      Amateur, 1920.  Mentions Nyarlathotep?

6.    Eddy C. Bertin, "Darkness, My Name Is", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU,
      Edward P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Cyaegha

7.    Ambrose Bierce, "An Inhabitant of Carcosa", in THE COMPLETE SHORT STORIES
      OF AMBROSE BIERCE, VOLUME I: THE WORLD OF HORROR, Ernest Jerome Hopkins,
      ed., Ballantine Books, 1971.  Mentions Carcosa, Hali

8.    Ambrose Bierce, "Haita the Shepherd", in THE COMPLETE SHORT STORIES OF
      AMBROSE BIERCE, VOLUME I: THE WORLD OF HORROR, Ernest Jerome Hopkins,
      ed., Ballantine Books, 1971.  Mentions Hastur

9.    Ambrose Bierce, "The Death of Halpin Frayser", in THE COMPLETE SHORT
      STORIES OF AMBROSE BIERCE, VOLUME I: THE WORLD OF HORROR, Ernest Jerome
      Hopkins, ed., Ballantine Books, 1971.  Mentions Hali

10.   Zealia Bishop and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Curse of Yig", Weird Tales,
      November 1929.  Mentions Binger OK, Yig

11.   Zealia Bishop and H. P. Lovecraft, "Medusa's Coil", Weird Tales, January
      1939.  Mentions Cthulhu

12.   Zealia Bishop and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Mound", Weird Tales, November
      1940.  Mentions Binger OK, K'n-Yan, N'kai, Shub-Niggurath, Tsathoggua,
      Yoth

13.   James Blish, "More Light", in ALCHEMY AND ACADEME, Anne McCaffrey, ed.,
      Ballantine Books, 1980.  Mentions The King in Yellow

14.   Robert Bloch, "The Secret in the Tomb", Weird Tales, May 1935.  Mentions
      Eibon, Eldertown, Ghouls, Necronomicon, Prinn

15.   Robert Bloch, "The Suicide in the Study", Weird Tales, June 1935.
      Mentions d'Erlette, Necronomicon, Prinn

16.   Robert Bloch, "Black Lotus", Unusual Stories, Vol. 1, No. 2, 1935.
      Mentions Alhazred

17.   Robert Bloch, "The Shambler from the Stars", Weird Tales, September 1935.
      Mentions Byatis, Eibon, Han, Necronomicon, Prinn, Yig

18.   Robert Bloch, "Mother of Serpents", Weird Tales, December 1936.  Mentions
      Yig

19.   Robert Bloch, "The Mannikin", Weird Tales, April 1936.  Mentions Prinn,
      Shub-Niggurath, Yig

20.   Robert Bloch, "The Faceless God", Weird Tales, May 1936.  Mentions
      Carnoti, Eibon, Necronomicon, Nyarlathotep, Prinn

21.   Robert Bloch, "The Opener of the Way", Weird Tales, October 1936.
      Mentions Carnoti, Nyarlathotep

22.   Robert Bloch, "The Grinning Ghoul", Weird Tales, June 1936.  Mentions
      Ghouls, Leng, Necronomicon, Nis, N'kai, Prinn

23.   Robert Bloch, "The Dark Demon", Weird Tales, November 1936.  Mentions
      Bridgetown, Necronomicon, Nyarlathotep

24.   Robert Bloch, "The Creeper in the Crypt", Weird Tales, July 1937.  $.
      Mentions ?

25.   Robert Bloch, "The Secret of Sebek", Weird Tales, November 1937.  
      Mentions de Marigny, Nyarlathotep, Prinn, Weildan

26.   Robert Bloch, "Fane of the Black Pharaoh", Weird Tales, December 1937.
      Mentions Necronomicon, Nephren-Ka, Nyarlathotep

27.   Robert Bloch, "Slave of the Flames", Weird Tales, June 1938.  Mentions
      Melek Taos (Malik Tous)

28.   Robert Bloch, "The Eyes of the Mummy", Weird Tales, April 1938.  Mentions
      Weildan

29.   Robert Bloch, "The Unspeakable Betrothal", in AVON FANTASY READER #9,
      Avon Book Co., 1949.  Mentions Yuggoth

30.   Robert Bloch, "The Shadow from the Steeple", Weird Tales, September 1950.
      Mentions Nyarlathotep

31.   Robert Bloch, "Notebook found in a Deserted House", Weird Tales, May
      1951.  Mentions Shoggoths, Shub-Niggurath

32.   Robert Bloch, STRANGE EONS, Pinnacle Books, Los Angeles, 1979.  Sections
      of this novel appeared in ''Whispers'', September-October, 1978.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, Pickman, R'lyeh

33.   Lin Carter, editor, MYSTERIES OF THE WORM: ALL THE CTHULHU MYTHOS STORIES
      OF ROBERT BLOCH, Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1981.  Contains
      ''The Secret in the Tomb'', ''The Suicide in the Study'', ''The Shambler
      from the Stars'', ''The Faceless God'', ''The Grinning Ghoul'', ''The
      Dark Demon'', ''The Mannikin'', ''The Secret of Sebek'', ''Fane of the
      Black Pharaoh'', ''The Unspeakable Betrothal'', ''The Shadow from the
      Steeple'', and ''Notebook Found in a Deserted House''.  An additional
      story, ''Terror in Cut-Throat Cove'', is included but has no direct
      Mythos connections

34.   Joseph Payne Brennan, "Arkham Episode", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny
      Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.
      Mentions Arkham

35.   Joseph Payne Brennan, "The Seventh Incantation", in SCREAM AT MIDNIGHT,
      Macabre House, 1973.  $.  Mentions ?

36.   Joseph Payne Brennan, "The Feaster from Afar", in THE DISCIPLES OF
      CTHULHU, Edward P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Hastur

37.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Church in High Street", in DARK MIND, DARK
      HEART, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1962.  Mentions
      Azathoth, Cthulhu, Leng, Necronomicon, Nyarlathotep, Yuggoth

38.   J. Ramsey Campbell, THE INHABITANT OF THE LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.  Contains ''The Room in the
      Castle'', ''The Horror from the Bridge'', ''The Insects from Shaggai'',
      ''The Render of the Veils'', ''The Inhabitant of the Lake'', ''The Plain
      of Sound'', ''The Return of the Witch'', ''The Mine on Yuggoth'', ''The
      Will of Stanley Brooke'', and ''The Moon-Lens''

39.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Room in the Castle", in THE INHABITANT OF THE
      LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions ?

40.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Horror from the Bridge", in THE INHABITANT OF
      THE LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions ?

41.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Insects from Shaggai", in THE INHABITANT OF THE
      LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions Shaggai, Shan

42.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Render of the Veils", in THE INHABITANT OF THE
      LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions Daoloth

43.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Inhabitant of the Lake", in THE INHABITANT OF
      THE LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions Glaaki

44.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Plain of Sound", in THE INHABITANT OF THE LAKE
      AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.  
      Mentions ?

45.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Return of the Witch", in THE INHABITANT OF THE
      LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions ?

46.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Mine on Yuggoth", in THE INHABITANT OF THE LAKE
      AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  Mentions
      Brichester, Glaaki, Necronomicon, Tond, Y'golonac, Yuggoth

47.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Will of Stanley Brooke", in THE INHABITANT OF
      THE LAKE AND LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.
      Mentions ?

48.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Moon-Lens", in THE INHABITANT OF THE LAKE AND
      LESS WELCOME TENANTS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  $.  Mentions ?

49.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Stone on the Island", in OVER THE EDGE, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  Mentions Brichester,
      Elder Sign

50.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "Cold Print", in TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1969.  Mentions Glaaki,
      Y'golonac

51.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "A Madness from the Vaults", in H.P.L., Meade and
      Penny Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.
      Mentions Tond, Azathoth

52.   Ramsey Campbell, "The Tugging", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU, Edward
      P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Brichester, Daoloth, Ghroth,
      Glaaki, M'nagalah

53.   Ramsey Campbell, editor, NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS, Arkham House,
      Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.  Contains ''Crouch End'', ''The Star Pools'',
      ''The Second Wish'', ''Dark Awakening'', ''Shaft Number 247'', ''Black
      Man with a Horn'', ''The Black Tome of Alsophocus'', ''Than Curse the
      Darkness'', ''The Faces at Pine Dunes''

54.   Ramsey Campbell, "The Faces At Pine Dunes", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU
      MYTHOS, Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.
      Mentions ?

55.   Ramsey Campbell, DARK COMPANIONS, Macmillan Publishing Co., NY, 1982,
      Includes the following stories, set around Brichester but without other
      Mythos connections: ''Napier Court'', ''The Pattern''

56.   J. Ramsey Campbell, "The Tower from Yuggoth", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions
      Yuggoth

57.   Ramsey Campbell, DEMONS IN DARKNESS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, ?.
      Includes the following stories, set around Brichester but without other
      Mythos connections: ''Potential'', ''At First Sight'', ''The Franklin
      Paragraphs/The Interloper'', ''The Sentinels'', ''The Guy'', and ''Made
      in Goatswood''

58.   Lin Carter, "Unknown Kadath", Amra, Vol. 2, No. 39, 1966.  Sonnet XII of
      ''Dreams from R'lyeh''.  Mentions Kadath

  Cthulhu fthagn!
-- 
Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, cbosgd, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #353
Date: 12 Aug 87 2306-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #353
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2306-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #353
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 353

Today's Topics:
               Bibliography - Cthulhu Mythos Part02/04

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess partner))
Subject: Cthulhu Mythos Bibliography (Entries 59-171)
Date: 31 Jul 87 18:06:45 GMT


59.   Lin Carter, "The Doom of Yakthoob", The Arkham Collector, No. 10, Summer
      1971.  $.  Mentions Necronomicon

60.   Lin Carter, "Shaggai", in DARK THINGS, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House,
      Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Shaggai, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Eibon

61.   Lin Carter, "The Dweller in the Tomb", in DARK THINGS, August Derleth,
      ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Zanthu Tablets, Mi-Go,
      Mu

62.   Lin Carter, "Litany to Hastur", in THE SPAWN OF CTHULHU, Lin Carter, ed.,
      Ballantine Books, 1971, Sonnets I-IV of ''Dreams from R'lyeh'' Mentions
      Hastur

63.   Lin Carter, editor, THE SPAWN OF CTHULHU, Ballantine Books, 1971.
      Contains ''The Whisperer in Darkness'', ''An Inhabitant of Carcosa'',
      ''The Yellow Sign'', ''The Children of the Night'', ''Cordelia's Song'',
      ''Litany to Hastur'', ''The Return of Hastur'', ''K'n-Yan'', ''The Mine
      on Yuggoth'',''The Tale of Satampra Zeiros'', ''The Curse of Yig'', ''The
      Hounds of Tindalos''

64.   Lin Carter, "Zoth-Ommog", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU, Edward
      P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Arkham, Cthulhu, Glaaki,
      Poseidonis, Prinn, Santiago CA, Vulthoom, Zothique, Zoth-Ommog

65.   Lin Carter, WEIRD TALES 1, Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1980,
      Contains ''The Light from the Pole'', ''Dreams in the House of Weir''

66.   Lin Carter, "Dreams in the House of Weir", in WEIRD TALES 1, Lin Carter,
      ed., Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1980.  $.  Mentions Dholes,
      Yaddith

67.   Lin Carter, LOST WORLDS, DAW Books, 1980.  $.  Contains ''The Scroll of
      Morloc'', ''The Stairs in the Crypt'', ''The Thing in the Pit''

68.   Lin Carter, editor, WEIRD TALES 3, Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra
      Books), 1981, Contains ''The House of the Temple'', ''The Summons of
      Nuguth-Yug'', ''The Winfield Inheritance''

69.   Lin Carter, "The Winfield Inheritance", in WEIRD TALES 3, Lin Carter,
      ed., Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1981.  Mentions Arkham,



      Derby, Eibon, Necronomicon, Santiago CA, Winfield, Worms of the Earth
      Yuggs

70.   Lin Carter, "The Vengeance of Yig", in WEIRD TALES 4, Kensington
      Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1983.  Mentions Yig, Serpent People,
      K'n-Yan, Yoth

71.   Lin Carter, "In the Vale of Pnath", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions Eibon, Pnath

72.   Lin Carter, "Out of the Ages", ?, ? ?.  $.  Is this ''Zoth-Ommog''?
      Mentions Cthulhu, Mu, Ythogtha, Zoth-Ommog

73.   Lin Carter, "The City of Pillars", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions Necronomicon

74.   Lin Carter, "Acolyte of the Flame", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions Pnakotic
      Manuscripts

75.   Lin Carter, "The Descent into the Abyss", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions Eibon

76.   Lin Carter, WEIRD TALES 2, Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), ?.  
      $.  I assume this contains at least one Mythos story, as all the others 
      do

77.   Lin Carter, "The Scroll of Morloc", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions ?

78.   Lin Carter, "The Stairs in the Crypt", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions ?

79.   Lin Carter, "The Thing in the Pit", ?, ? ?.  Mentions Mu

80.   Lin Carter, DREAMS FROM R'LYEH, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, ?.  $.
      Poems.  Contains ''Litany to Hastur'', ''Unknown Kadath''.  Mentions
      R'lyeh

81.   Robert W. Chambers, THE KING IN YELLOW, ?, 1895.  Contains ''The Yellow
      Sign'', ''The Repairer of Reputations'', ''The Mask'', ''In the Court of
      the Dragon''

82.   Robert W. Chambers, "The Yellow Sign", in THE KING IN YELLOW, ?, 1895.
      Mentions The King in Yellow, Yellow Sign, Hastur, Hali

83.   Robert W. Chambers, "The Repairer of Reputations", in THE KING IN YELLOW,
      ?, 1895.  Mentions The King in Yellow, Hali, Carcosa

84.   Robert W. Chambers, "The Mask", in THE KING IN YELLOW, ?, 1895.  Mentions
      The King in Yellow

85.   Robert W. Chambers, "In the Court of the Dragon", in THE KING IN YELLOW,
      ?, 1895.  Mentions The King in Yellow

86.   Robert W. Chambers, THE SLAYER OF SOULS, ?, 1920.  $.  Mentions Yian,
      Tchortchas (Tcho-Tchos?)

87.   Basil Copper, "Shaft Number 247", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS,
      Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.  Mentions ?

88.   Michael Crichton, EATERS OF THE DEAD, ?, ?.  $.  Mentions Necronomicon
      in the Appendix

89.   Sonia H. Davis and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Invisible Monster", Weird Tales,
      November 1923.  Mentions Deep Ones?

90.   Sonia H. Davis and H. P. Lovecraft, "Four O'Clock", in SOMETHING ABOUT
      CATS AND OTHER PIECES, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI,
      1949.  $.  Mentions ?

91.   Adolphe de Castro and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Last Test", Weird Tales,
      November 1928.  Mentions Nyarlathotep

92.   Adolphe de Castro and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Electric Executioner", Weird
      Tales, August 1930.  Mentions Cthulhu

93.   Walter C. DeBill, Jr., "K'n-Yan", The Arkham Collector, No. 8, Winter
      1971.  Poem.  Mentions K'n-Yan, Sansu

94.   Walter C. DeBill, Jr., "Homecoming", Nyctalops, February 1972.  $.
      Mentions ?

95.   Walter C. DeBill, Jr., "Predator", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson,
      ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Mentions Yidhra

96.   Walter C. DeBill, Jr., "Where Yidhra Walks", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU,
      Edward P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Yidhra

97.   August Derleth, "The Thing that Walked on the Wind", Strange Tales,
      January 1933.  Mentions Cthulhu, Ithaqua, Leng, Tcho-Tchos

98.   August Derleth, "The Return of Hastur", Weird Tales, March 1939.  
      Mentions Arkham, Carcosa, Chaugnar Faugn, Cthulhu, d'Erlette, Eibon, 
      Hastur, Necronomicon, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Prinn, R'lyeh, ''tekeli-li'',
      Tuttle, von Junzt, Yellow Sign

99.   August Derleth, "The Sandwin Compact", Weird Tales, November 1940.
      Mentions Arkham, Cthulhu, Eibon, Ithaqua, Lloigor, Necronomicon, Pnakotic
      Manuscripts, Shub-Niggurath, Tcho-Tchos, Tsathoggua, Yog-Sothoth, Zhar

100.  August Derleth, "Ithaqua", Strange Stories, February 1941.  $.  Mentions
      Ithaqua

101.  August Derleth, "Beyond the Threshold", Weird Tales, September 1941.
      Mentions Alwyn, Arkham, Cthulhu, Hastur, Innsmouth, Ithaqua, Leng,
      Lloigor, Necronomicon, Pnakotic Manuscripts, R'lyeh, Tcho-Tchos

102.  August Derleth, "The Trail of Cthulhu", Weird Tales, March 1944.  
      Mentions Arkham, Azathoth, Carcosa, Celaeno, Cthugha, Cthulhu, Deep Ones,
      d'Erlette, Dholes, Eibon, Elder Gods, Elder Sign, Great Old Ones, Hali,
      Hastur, Ib, Innsmouth, Ithaqua, Kadath, K'n-yan, Lloigor, Mi-Go, Mnar,
      Necronomicon, N'kai, Nyarlathotep, Phelan, Pnakotic Manuscripts, R'lyeh,
      Shoggoths, Shrewsbury, Shub-Niggurath, Tcho-Tchos, Tsathogghua, Ubbo-
      Sathla, von Junzt, Voormis, Y'ha-nthlei, Yhe, Yuggoth, Zhar, Zothique

103.  August Derleth, "The Dweller in Darkness", Weird Tales, November 1944.
      Mentions Alwyn, Cthugha, Cthulhu, Hastur, Innsmouth, Necronomicon,
      Nyarlathotep, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Prinn, Rick's Lake, R'lyeh,
      Shub-Niggurath, Tuttle, Wendigo, Yog-Sothoth, Zothique

104.  August Derleth, "The Watcher from the Sky", Weird Tales, July 1945.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Deep Ones, R'lyeh

105.  August Derleth, "Something in Wood", Weird Tales, March 1948.  Mentions
      Cthulhu

106.  August Derleth, "The Whippoorwills in the Hills", Weird Tales, September
      1948.  Mentions Arkham, R'lyeh, Yog-Sothoth

107.  August Derleth, "The Testament of Claiborne Boyd", Weird Tales, March
      1949.  Mentions Arkham, Byakhee, Cthulhu, Hastur, Necronomicon

108.  August Derleth, "Something from Out There", Weird Tales, January 1951.
      Mentions Cthulhu

109.  August Derleth, "The Keeper of the Key", Weird Tales, May 1951.  Mentions
      Cthulhu, Irem, Necronomicon

110.  August Derleth, "The Black Island", Weird Tales, January 1952.  Mentions
      Cthulhu, R'lyeh

111.  August Derleth, "The House in the Valley", Weird Tales, July 1953.
      Mentions Arkham, Aylesbury, Cthulhu, Deep Ones, d'Erlette, Innsmouth,
      Necronomicon, Pnakotic Manuscripts, R'lyeh, Seventh Book of Moses

112.  August Derleth, "The Seal of R'lyeh", Fantastic Universe, July 1957.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Deep Ones, Innsmouth, R'lyeh

113.  August Derleth, editor, TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS, Arkham House, Sauk
      City, WI, 1969.  Contains ''The Call of Cthulhu'', ''The Haunter of the
      Dark'', ''The Shambler from the Stars'', ''The Shadow from the Steeple'',
      ''The Return of the Sorcerer'', ''The Hounds of Tindalos'', ''The
      Space-Eaters'', ''The Dweller in Darkness'', ''Beyond the Threshold'',
      ''The Salem Horror'', ''The Haunter of the Graveyard'', ''Cold Print'',
      ''The Deep Ones'', ''The Return of the Lloigor''

114.  August Derleth, editor, DARK THINGS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.
      Contains ''The Dweller in the Tomb'', ''Shaggai'', ''The House in the
      Oaks'', ''Innsmouth Clay'', ''Rising with Surtsey'', ''The Rings of the
      Papaloi'', ''The Manterfield Inheritance''

115.  August Derleth and Mark Schorer, "Lair of the Star-Spawn", Weird Tales,
      August 1932.  Mentions Cthulhu, Hastur, Lloigor, Tcho-Tchos, Zhar

116.  August Derleth and Mark Schorer, "The Occupant of the Crypt", Weird
      Tales, September 1937.  $.  Mentions ?

117.  August Derleth and Mark Schorer, "Spawn of the Maelstrom", Weird Tales,
      September 1939.  Mentions Elder Sign

118.  August Derleth and Mark Schorer, "The Horror from the Depths", Strange
      Stories, October 1940, Is this ''The Evil Ones'' in Chalker?  Mentions
      Elder Sign

119.  David Drake, "Denkirch", in TRAVELLERS BY NIGHT, August Derleth, ed.,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1967.  Mentions R'lyeh

120.  David Drake, "Than Curse The Darkness", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU
      MYTHOS, Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.
      Mentions ?

121.  Lord Dunsany, "Bethmoora", in AT THE EDGE OF THE WORLD, Lin Carter, ed.,
      Ballantine Books, 1970.  $.  Mentions Bethmoora

122.  Alan Dean Foster, "Some Notes Concerning a Green Box", The Arkham
      Collector, No. ?, Summer 1971.  $.  Mentions ?

123.  Meade and Penny Frierson, editor, H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson,
      Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Contains ''Pickman's Passing'', ''Many-Columned
      Iram'', ''The Book of Madness'', ''The Doom Prophet'', ''The Terrible
      Parchment'', ''Planetfall on Yuggoth'', ''Predator'', ''A Madness from
      the Vaults'', ''The Elder Sign'', ''Down to the Sea''

124.  Ron Goulart (as Ralph Wollstonecraft Hedge), "Pickman's Passing", in
      H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson,
      Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.  Mentions Pickman

125.  Ron Goulart (as Ralph Wollstonecraft Hedge), "They Wake Off Innsmouth",
      in H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson,
      Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.  Mentions Innsmouth

126.  Henry Hasse, "The Guardian of the Book", Weird Tales, March 1937.  $.
      Mentions ?

127.  Hazel Heald and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Man of Stone", Wonder Stories,
      October 1932.  Mentions Eibon

128.  Hazel Heald and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Horror in the Museum", Weird Tales,
      July 1933.  Mentions Gnoph-Keh, Rhan-Tegoth

129.  Hazel Heald and H. P. Lovecraft, "Winged Death", Weird Tales, March 1934.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Fishers from Outside, Tsathoggua

130.  Hazel Heald and H. P. Lovecraft, "Out of the Eons", Weird Tales, April
      1935.  Mentions Chaugnar Faugn, Cthulhu, Eibon, Ghatanothoa, Gnoph-Keh,
      Mu, Rhan-Tegoth, Tcho-Tchos, Tsathoggua, von Junzt, Yaddith-Gho

131.  Richard Heffern, "Crescendoes for the Wind Walker", in H.P.L., Meade and
      Penny Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972,
      Poem.  Mentions Cthulhu, Ithaqua

132.  William Scott Home, "Dull Scavengers Wax Crafty", in H.P.L., Meade and
      Penny Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972,
      Mentions Necronomicon

133.  Robert E. Howard, "The Shadow Kingdom", Weird Tales, August 1929.
      Mentions Serpent People.  By extention, all Kull of Valusia, and thus
      Conan of Cimmeria, stories are connected to the Mythos

134.  Robert E. Howard, "The Children of the Night", Weird Tales, April-May
      1931.  Mentions Bran Mak Morn, Children of the Night (Yuggs), Conrad,
      Cthulhu, Gol-Goroth, Tsathoggua, von Junzt, Yog-Sothoth

135.  Robert E. Howard, "The Black Stone", Weird Tales, November 1931.  
      Mentions Black Stone, Geoffrey, Stregoicavar, von Junzt, Xuthltan

136.  Robert E. Howard, "The Gods of Bal-Sagoth", Weird Tales, October 1931.
      Mentions Gol-Goroth.  By extention, all Turlogh O'Brien stories are
      connected to the Mythos

137.  Robert E. Howard, "The Thing on the Roof", Weird Tales, February 1932.
      Mentions Geoffrey, von Junzt, Xuthltan

138.  Robert E. Howard, "Worms of the Earth", Weird Tales, November 1932.
      Mentions Black Stone, Bran Mac Morn, Dagon, R'lyeh, Worms of the Earth
      (Yuggs).  By extention, all Bran Mac Morn stories are connected to the
      Mythos

139.  Robert E. Howard, "People of the Dark", Strange Tales, June 1932.
      Mentions Black Stone, Children of the Night (Yuggs), Dagon

140.  Robert E. Howard, "Arkham", Weird Tales, August 1932.  Poem.  Mentions
      Arkham

141.  Robert E. Howard, "The Fire of Asshurbanipal", Weird Tales, December
      1936.  Mentions Cthulhu, Kara-Shehr (Irem), Koth, Xuthltan, Yog-Sothoth

142.  Robert E. Howard, "Dig Me No Grave", Weird Tales, February 1937.  
      Mentions Conrad, Kathulos, Koth, Malik Tous

143.  Robert E. Howard, "The House in the Oaks", in DARK THINGS, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Conrad,
      Geoffrey

144.  David Drake, editor, CTHULHU: THE MYTHOS AND KINDRED HORRORS, Baen Books,
      1987.  Contains ''Arkham'', ''The Black Stone'', ''The Fire of
      Asshurbanipal'', ''The Thing on the Roof'', ''Dig Me No Grave'', ''People
      of the Dark'', ''Worms of the Earth'', and other stories without Mythos
      connections

145.  Robert E. Howard, "The Voice of El-Lil", ?, ? 19??.  Mentions Conrad

146.  Stephen King, "Crouch End", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS, Ramsey
      Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.  Mentions ?

147.  Stephen King, "I Know What You Need", Cosmopolitan, July? 1977?.  
      Mentions Necronomicon

148.  T. E. D. Klein, "Black Man with a Horn", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU
      MYTHOS, Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.
      Mentions ?

149.  Henry Kuttner, "The Graveyard Rats", Weird Tales, March 1936.  Mentions
      Ghouls

150.  Henry Kuttner, "It Walks by Night", Weird Tales, December 1936.  $.
      Mentions ?

151.  Henry Kuttner, "The Secret of Kralitz", Weird Tales, October 1936.  $.
      Mentions ?

152.  Henry Kuttner, "The Salem Horror", Weird Tales, May 1937.  Mentions Leng,
      Necronomicon, Nyogtha, Vach-Viraj Incantation

153.  Henry Kuttner, "The Invaders", Strange Stories, February 1939.  $.
      Mentions ?

154.  Henry Kuttner, "Hydra", Weird Tales, April 1939.  $.  Mentions ?

155.  Henry Kuttner, "The Hunt", Strange Tales, June 1939.  $.  Mentions ?

156.  Henry Kuttner, "The Frog", Strange Stories, February 1939.  $.  Mentions 
      ?

157.  Henry Kuttner (as Keith Hammond), "Bells of Horror", Strange Stories,
      April 1939.  $.  Mentions ?

158.  Henry Kuttner, "The Watcher at the Door", Weird Tales, May 1939.  $.
      Mentions ?

159.  Henry Kuttner, "Eater of Souls", ?, ? ?.  $.  Mentions ?

160.  Bob Van Laerhoven, "All-Eye", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU, Edward
      P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Hingoo, All-Eye, wendigo

161.  Edward S. Lauterbach, "The Book of Madness", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny
      Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.
      Mentions Alhazred, Cthulhu, Necronomicon

162.  Fritz Leiber, "The Terror from the Depths", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU,
      Edward P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Arkham, Cthulhu, Deep
      Ones, Wilmarth

163.  Frank Belknap Long, "The Space-Eaters", Weird Tales, July 1928.  Mentions
      Partridgeville

164.  Frank Belknap Long, "The Hounds of Tindalos", Weird Tales, March 1929.
      Mentions Doels (Dholes), Hounds of Tindalos, Partridgeville

165.  Frank Belknap Long, "On Icy Kinarth", Weird Tales, April 1930.  $.  Poem.
      Mentions Kinarth (Kynarth)

166.  Frank Belknap Long, "The Horror from the Hills", Weird Tales, January and
      February-March 1931.  $.  2 part serial.  Mentions Chaugnar Faugn

167.  Frank Belknap Long, "The Abominable Snowmen", Weird Tales, June-July
      1931.  $.  Poem.  Mentions ?

168.  Frank Belknap Long, "The Brain Eaters", Weird Tales, June 1932.  $.
      Mentions ?

169.  Frank Belknap Long, "The Malignant Invader", Weird Tales, January 1932,
      $.  Mentions ?

170.  Frank Belknap Long, "When Chaugnar Wakes", Weird Tales, September 1932,
      $.  Poem.  Mentions Chaugnar Faugn

171.  Frank Belknap Long, "Dark Awakening", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS,
      Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.  Mentions ?


  Cthulhu fthagn!
-- 
Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, cbosgd, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #354
Date: 12 Aug 87 2309-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #354
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2309-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #354
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 354

Today's Topics:
               Bibliography - Cthulhu Mythos Part03/04

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess partner))
Subject: Cthulhu Mythos Bibliography (Part03/03: Entries 172-264)
Date: 31 Jul 87 18:08:55 GMT

                     A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS
                            by Chris Jarocha-Ernst

172.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Herbert West - Reanimator", Home Brew, 1922.  Mentions
      Arkham

173.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Dagon", Weird Tales, October 1923.  Mentions Dagon

174.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Picture in the House", Weird Tales, January 1924.
      Mentions Arkham

175.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Hound", Weird Tales, February 1924.  Mentions
      Alhazred, Leng, Necronomicon

176.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Rats in the Walls", Weird Tales, March 1924.
      Mentions Nyarlathotep

177.  H. P. Lovecraft, "To a Dreamer", Weird Tales, November 1924.  Poem.
      Mentions Pnath, Throk, Zin

178.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Statement of Randolph Carter", Weird Tales,
      February 1925.  Mentions Carter

179.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Music of Erich Zann", Weird Tales, May 1925
      Mentions Zann

180.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Festival", Weird Tales, January 1925.  Mentions
      Arkham, Kingsport, Necronomicon

181.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Unnamable", Weird Tales, July 1925.  Mentions
      Arkham, Carter

182.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Moon-Bog", Weird Tales, June 1926.  Mentions Moon
      Bog

183.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Cats of Ulthar", Weird Tales, February 1926.
      Mentions Ulthar

184.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Terrible Old Man", Weird Tales, August 1926.
      Mentions Kingsport

185.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Outsider", Weird Tales, April 1926.  Mentions
      Ghouls, Nephren-Ka, Nitocris

186.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The White Ship", Weird Tales, March 1927.  Mentions
      Sona-Nyl

187.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Pickman's Model", Weird Tales, October 1927.  Mentions
      Ghouls, Pickman

188.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Colour Out of Space", Amazing Stories, September
      1927.  Mentions Arkham

189.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu", Weird Tales, February 1928.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Irem, Necronomicon, R'lyeh

190.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Silver Key", Weird Tales, January 1929.  Mentions
      Arkham, Carter, Ulthar

191.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Dunwich Horror", Weird Tales, April 1929.  Mentions
      Arkham, Cthulhu, Dunwich, Necronomicon, Shub-Niggurath, Yog-Sothoth

192.  H. P. Lovecraft and Harry Houdini, "Imprisoned with the Pharaohs", Weird
      Tales, ? 192?.  Mentions Nitocris

193.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Ancient Track", Weird Tales, March 1930.  Poem.
      Mentions Dunwich, Zaman's Hill

194.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Strange High House in the Mist", Weird Tales,
      October 1931.  Mentions Arkham, Hatheg-Kla, Kadath, Kingsport, Nodens,
      Poseidonis, Ulthar

195.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Whisperer in Darkness", Weird Tales, August 1931.
      Mentions Azathoth, Bethmoora, Bran Mak Morn, Cthulhu, Doels (Dholes),
      Hali, Hastur, Hounds of Tindalos, Leng, L'mur-Kathulos, Mi-Go,
      Nyarlathotep, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Tsathoggua, Wilmarth, Yellow Sign,
      Yian, Yig, Yuggoth

196.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Dreams in the Witch-House", Weird Tales, July 1933.
      Mentions Arkham, Eibon, von Junzt

197.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Celephais", Marvel Tales, May 1934.  Mentions 
      Celephais, Innsmouth, Leng

198.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Outpost", Fantasy Magazine, May 1934.  Poem.
      Mentions Fishers from Outside

199.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Doom That Came to Sarnath", Marvel Tales,
      March-April 1935.  Mentions Bokrug, Sarnath

200.  H. P. Lovecraft, THE SHADOW OVER INNSMOUTH, Visionary Press, PA, 1936.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Dagon, Deep Ones, Innsmouth, R'lyeh, Shoggoths,
      Y'ha-nthlei

201.  H. P. Lovecraft, "At the Mountains of Madness", Astounding Stories,
      February, March, April 1936, 3 part serial.  Mentions Cthulhu, Leng,
      Necronomicon, Old Ones, Shoggoths, ''tekeli-li''

202.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Shadow Out of Time", Astounding Stories, June 1936.
      Mentions Arkham, d'Erlette, Eltdown Shards, Great Race of Yith, Old Ones,
      Peaslee, Prinn, Serpent People, Tcho-Tchos, Tsan-Chan, Tsathoggua, von
      Junzt

203.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Haunter of the Dark", Weird Tales, December 1936.
      Mentions Book of Dzyan, Eibon, Necronomicon,Nephren-Ka, Nyarlathotep,
      Prinn, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Serpent People, Shaggai, von Junzt, Yaddith,
      Yog-Sothoth, Yuggoth

204.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Shunned House", Weird Tales, October 1937.  
      Mentions Carter

205.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Polaris", Weird Tales, December 1937.  Mentions
      Gnoph-Keh, Pnakotic Manuscripts

206.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Thing on the Doorstep", Weird Tales, January 1937.
      Mentions Arkham, Azathoth, Derby, Geoffrey

207.  H. P. Lovecraft, A HISTORY OF THE NECRONOMICON, The Rebel Press, Oakman,
      AL, 1938.  Mentions Necronomicon

208.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Nameless City", Weird Tales, November 1938.
      Mentions Alhazred, Irem, Sarnath

209.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Other Gods", Weird Tales, October 1938.  Mentions
      Hatheg-Kla, Kadath, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Sansu, Ulthar

210.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Beyond the Wall of Sleep", Weird Tales, March 1938,
      Mentions Tsan Chan

211.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Azathoth", Leaves II, 1938, Fragment.  Mentions
      Azathoth

212.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Descendant", Leaves II, 1938, Fragment.  Mentions
      Elder Sign, Irem, Necronomicon

213.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Messenger", Weird Tales, July 1938.  Poem.  
      Mentions Elder Sign

214.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Quest of Iranon", Weird Tales, March 1939.  
      Mentions Sarnath

215.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward", Weird Tales, May-July
      1941.  Mentions Carter, Necronomicon, Sign of Koth, Yog-Sothoth

216.  H. P. Lovecraft, FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA, 1941, Brochure.  While
      the entire sonnet sequence may be considered a Mythos ''story'', only
      these individual poems contain Mythos references:  ''Recognition'',
      ''Zaman's Hill'', ''The Port'', ''Star-Winds'', ''The Bells'',
      ''Night-Gaunts'', ''Nyarlathotep'', ''Azathoth'', ''The Familiars'',
      ''The Elder Pharos'', ''Alienation''

217.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Recognition", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA,
      1941.  Sonnet 4.  Poem.  Mentions Yuggoth

218.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Zaman's Hill", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA,
      1941.  Sonnet 7.  Poem.  Mentions Aylesbury, Zaman's Hill

219.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Port", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA, 1941. 
      Sonnet 8.  Poem.  Mentions Arkham, Innsmouth

220.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Star-Winds", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA, 1941.
      Sonnet 14.  Poem.  Mentions Yuggoth

221.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Bells", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA, 1941. 
      Sonnet 19.  Poem.  Mentions Innsmouth

222.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Night-Gaunts", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA,
      1941.  Sonnet 20.  Poem.  Mentions Night-Gaunts

223.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Nyarlathotep", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA,
      1941.  Sonnet 21.  Poem.  Mentions Nyarlathotep

224.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Azathoth", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA, 1941. 
      Sonnet 22.  Poem.  Mentions Azathoth

225.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Familiars", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA,
      1941.  Sonnet 26.  Poem.  Mentions Aylesbury

226.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Elder Pharos", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA,
      1941.  Sonnet 27.  Poem.  Mentions Leng

227.  H. P. Lovecraft, "Alienation", in FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH, F.A.P.A., CA, 1941.
      Sonnet 32.  Poem.  Mentions Yaddith

228.  H. P. Lovecraft, "The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath", The Arkham Sampler,
      Spring-Summer-Autumn-Winter 1948.  Mentions Arkham, Azathoth, Carter,
      Celephais, Cryptical Books, Dylath-Leen, Dholes, Elder Sign, Ghasts,
      Ghouls, Gnoph-Keh, Gugs, Hatheg-Kla, Innsmouth, Kadath, Kingsport, Leng,
      Nodens, Nyarlathotep, Pickman, Pnakotic Manuscripts, Pnath, Sign of Koth,
      Shantaks, Sona-Nyl, Throk, Ulthar, Zin, Zoogs

229.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, THE LURKER AT THE THRESHOLD, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1945.  Expansion of two fragments of HPL's.
      Mentions Arkham, Dagon, Dunwich, Lamah (Lomar), Necronomicon, Tsathoggua,
      Winfield, Yog-Sothoth

230.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Survivor", Weird Tales, July
      1954.  Mentions Deep Ones

231.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Gable Window (as ''The Murky
      Glass'')", Saturn, May 1957.  Mentions Arkham, Sand-Dweller

232.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Lamp of Alhazred", F&SF, October
      1957.  Mentions Irem, Necronomicon

233.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Shadow Out of Space", in THE
      SURVIVOR AND OTHERS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1957.  Mentions Arkham,
      Great Race of Yith

234.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "Wentworth's Day", in THE SURVIVOR
      AND OTHERS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1957.  Mentions Dunwich, Seventh
      Book of Moses

235.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Shuttered Room", in THE
      SHUTTERED ROOM AND OTHER PIECES, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1959.
      Mentions Deep Ones, Dunwich

236.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Fisherman of Falcon Point", in
      THE SHUTTERED ROOM AND OTHER PIECES, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1959.
      Mentions Deep Ones, Innsmouth

237.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Dark Brotherhood", in THE
      SHUTTERED ROOM AND OTHER PIECES, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1959.
      Mentions Great Race of Yith

238.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Shadow in the Attic", in THE
      SHUTTERED ROOM AND OTHER PIECES, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1959.
      Mentions Arkham

239.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "Witches' Hollow", in DARK MIND, DARK
      HEART, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1962.  Mentions
      Arkham

240.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Horror from the Middle Span", in
      TRAVELLERS BY NIGHT, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI,
      1967.  Mentions Dunwich

241.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "The Watchers Out of Time", in THE
      WATCHERS OUT OF TIME AND OTHERS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1972.  $.
      Mentions ?

242.  H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, "Innsmouth Clay", in THE WATCHERS OUT
      OF TIME AND OTHERS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1972.  Mentions 
      Innsmouth

243.  H. P. Lovecraft and E. Hoffman Price, "Through the Gates of the Silver
      Key", Weird Tales, July 1934.  Mentions Arkham, Carter, de Marigny,
      Dholes, Kath, Kynarth, Kythamil, Leng, Mthura, Necronomicon, Nython,
      Stronti, 'Umr At-Tawil, Yaddith, Yian-Ho, Yuggoth

244.  Brian Lumley, "Cement Surroundings", in TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS,
      August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1969.  Mentions
      Commodus, Cthulhu, Ephiroth, G'harne, Pickman, Shudde-M'ell, Yibb-Tstll,
      Yog-Sothoth

245.  Brian Lumley, "The Sister City", in TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1969.  Mentions Bokrug, 
      Sarnath

246.  Brian Lumley, "Billy's Oak", The Arkham Collector, No. 6, Winter 1970.
      Mentions Crow, Cthaat Aquadingen

247.  Brian Lumley, "An Item of Supporting Evidence", The Arkham Collector, No.
      7, Summer 1970.  Mentions Crow, Urbicus, Yegg-Ha

248.  Brian Lumley, "Rising with Surtsey", in DARK THINGS, August Derleth, ed.,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Cthaat Aquadingen, Gell-Ho,
      Othuum

249.  Brian Lumley, THE CALLER OF THE BLACK, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971,
      Contains ''Billy's Oak'', ''The Cyprus Shell'', ''The Caller of the
      Black'', ''The Mirror of Nitocris'', ''The Night the *Sea-Maid* Went
      Down'', ''The Thing from the Blasted Heath'', ''An Item of Supporting
      Evidence'', ''Dylath-Leen'', ''De Marigny's Clock'', ''In the Vaults
      Beneath'', ''Ambler's Inspiration''

250.  Brian Lumley, "The Cyprus Shell", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Cthaat Aquadingen

251.  Brian Lumley, "The Caller of the Black", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Crow, Geoffrey, Yibb-Tstll

252.  Brian Lumley, "The Mirror of Nitocris", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions de Marigny, Geoffrey,
      Nitocris, Crow

253.  Brian Lumley, "The Night the *Sea-Maid* Went Down", in THE CALLER OF THE
      BLACK, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Elder Sign

254.  Brian Lumley, "The Thing from the Blasted Heath", in THE CALLER OF THE
      BLACK, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Arkham

255.  Brian Lumley, "Dylath-Leen", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK, Arkham House,
      Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Dylath-Leen

256.  Brian Lumley, "De Marigny's Clock", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions de Marigny, Crow

257.  Brian Lumley, "In the Vaults Beneath", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Old Ones

258.  Brian Lumley, "Ambler's Inspiration", in THE CALLER OF THE BLACK, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Oakdeene

259.  Brian Lumley, "The House of Cthulhu", Whispers, No. 1, 1973.  Mentions
      Cthulhu

260.  Brian Lumley, THE BURROWERS BENEATH, DAW Books, 1974.  Novel 
      incorporating ''Cement Surroundings'' and ''The Night the *Sea-Maid* Went
      Down''.  Mentions Arkham, Azathoth, Crow, Cthaat Aquadingen, Cthulhu, 
      Deep Ones, de Marigny, Elder Sign, Gell-Ho, G'harne, Lloigor, 
      Necronomicon, Nyarlathotep, Nyogtha, Oakdeene, Peaslee, Prinn, 
      Shudde-M'ell, Silberhutte, Ubbo-Sathla, Vach-Viraj Incantation, Wilmarth,
      Zothique

261.  Brian Lumley, BENEATH THE MOORS, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1974.  
      Novel incorporating ''The Sister City''.  Mentions Bokrug, Shoggoths

262.  Brian Lumley, THE TRANSITION OF TITUS CROW, DAW Books, 1975.  Mentions
      Alhazred, Arkham, Arthak't, Carcosa, Crow, Cthaat Aquadingen, Cthulhu,
      Cthylla, Dagon, de Marigny, Elder Gods, Elysia, G'harne, Great Race of
      Yith, Hali, Hastur, Hounds of Tindalos, Hydra, Innsmouth, Ithaqua,
      Kingsport, Kthanid, Moon Bog, Oth-Neth, Peaslee, R'lyeh, Sarnath,
      Shub-Niggurath, Tiania, Tsan-Chan, T3RE, Urbicus, Walmsley, Yegg-Ha,
      Yog-Sothoth

263.  Brian Lumley, "The Fairground Horror", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU,
      Edward P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Cthulhu, Shudde-M'ell

264.  Brian Lumley, THE HORROR AT OAKDEENE, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1977,
      Contains ''The Viking's Stone'', ''Aunt Hester'', ''The Horror at
      Oakdeene'', ''Darghud's Doll'', ''Born of the Winds'', and ''The
      Statement of Henry Worthy''


  Cthulhu fthagn!
-- 
Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, cbosgd, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #355
Date: 12 Aug 87 2312-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #355
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Aug 87 2312-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #355
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 13 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 355

Today's Topics:
               Bibliography - Cthulhu Mythos Part04/04

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Chris Jarocha-Ernst (Meteora's chess partner))
Subject: Cthulhu Mythos Bibliography (Entries 265-336)
Date: 31 Jul 87 18:08:55 GMT

                     A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS
                            by Chris Jarocha-Ernst

265.  Brian Lumley, "The Horror at Oakdeene", in THE HORROR AT OAKDEENE, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1977.  Mentions Yibb-Tstll, Oakdeene, Cthaat
      Aquadingen

266.  Brian Lumley, "Aunt Hester", in THE HORROR AT OAKDEENE, Arkham House,
      Sauk City, WI, 1977.  Mentions Necronomicon

267.  Brian Lumley, "The Viking's Stone", in THE HORROR AT OAKDEENE, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1977.  Mentions Crow

268.  Brian Lumley, "The Statement of Henry Worthy", in THE HORROR AT OAKDEENE,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1977.  Mentions von Junzt

269.  Brian Lumley, "Darghud's Doll", in THE HORROR AT OAKDEENE, Arkham House,
      Sauk City, WI, 1977.  Mentions Crow

270.  Brian Lumley, THE CLOCK OF DREAMS, Jove/HBJ Books, 1978.  Novel
      incorporating ''Dylath-Leen''.  Mentions Carter, Crow, Cthulhu, de
      Marigny, Elder Gods, Elder Sign, Gnorri, Ithaqua, Kaman-Thah, Kthanid,
      Nasht, Night-Gaunts, Nyarlathotep, Thamuth-Djig, Throk, Tiania, Ulthar,
      Yian-Ho, Yog-Sothoth

271.  Brian Lumley, SPAWN OF THE WINDS, Jove/HBJ Books, 1978.  Mentions 
      Ithaqua, Silberhutte

272.  Brian Lumley, IN THE MOONS OF BOREA, Jove/HBJ Books, 1979.  Mentions
      Ithaqua, Silberhutte

273.  Brian Lumley, "The Second Wish", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS,
      Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.  Mentions ?

274.  Brian Lumley, "The House of the Temple", in WEIRD TALES 3, Lin Carter,
      ed., Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1981.  Mentions Bugg-Shash,
      Cthaat Aquadingen, Nitocris, Prinn, Stregoicavar, von Junzt, Yibb-Tstll,
      Yog-Sothoth

275.  Brian Lumley, THE COMPLEAT CROW, W. Paul Ganley: Publisher, Buffalo, NY,
      1987.  $.  Contains ''Inception'', ''Lord of the Worms'', ''The Caller of
      the Black'', ''The Viking's Stone'', ''The Mirror of Nitocris'', ''An
      Item of Supporting Evidence'', ''Billy's Oak'', ''Darghud's Doll'', ''De
      Marigny's Clock'', ''Name and Number'', ''The Black Recalled''

276.  Brian Lumley, "Name and Number", in THE COMPLEAT CROW, W. Paul Ganley:
      Publisher, Buffalo, NY, 1987.  $.  Mentions Crow

277.  Brian Lumley, "The Black Recalled", in THE COMPLEAT CROW, W. Paul Ganley:
      Publisher, Buffalo, NY, 1987.  $.  Mentions Crow

278.  Brian Lumley, "Inception", in THE COMPLEAT CROW, W. Paul Ganley:
      Publisher, Buffalo, NY, 1987.  $.  Mentions Crow

279.  Brian Lumley, "Lord of the Worms", in THE COMPLEAT CROW, W. Paul Ganley:
      Publisher, Buffalo, NY, 1987.  $.  Mentions Crow

280.  Brian Lumley, "Haggopian", F&SF, Circa 1972/73.  Mentions Deep Ones

281.  Brian Lumley, "Born of the Winds", F&SF, ? ?.  Mentions Ithaqua

282.  William Lumley and H. P. Lovecraft, "The Diary of Alonzo Typer", Weird
      Tales, February 1938.  Mentions Eltdown Shards, Yian-Ho

283.  Arthur Machen, "The White People", ?, ? ?.  Mentions Do^ls (Dholes)

284.  A. Merritt and C. L. Moore and H. P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard and
      and Frank Belknap Long, "The Challenge from Beyond", Fantasy Magazine,
      September 1935.  Mentions Eltdown Shards, Great Race of Yith

285.  Gary Myers, "The House of the Worm", The Arkham Collector, No. 7, Summer
      1970.  $.  Mentions ?

286.  Gary Myers, "Yokh the Necromancer", The Arkham Collector, No. 8, Winter
      1971.  $.  Mentions ?

287.  Gary Myers, "Passing of a Dreamer", The Arkham Collector, No. 9, Spring
      1971.  $.  Mentions ?

288.  Gary Myers, THE HOUSE OF THE WORM, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1975.  $.
      Contains ''The House of the Worm'', ''Yokh the Necromancer'', ''Passing
      of a Dreamer'', ''The Loot of Golthoth'', ''Xiurhn'', ''Hazuth-Kleg'',
      ''The Three Enchantments'', ''The Return of Zhosph''

289.  Gary Myers, "The Loot of Golthoth", in THE HOUSE OF THE WORM, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1975.  $.  Mentions ?

290.  Gary Myers, "Xiurhn", in THE HOUSE OF THE WORM, Arkham House, Sauk City,
      WI, 1975.  $.  Mentions ?

291.  Gary Myers, "Hazuth-Kleg", in THE HOUSE OF THE WORM, Arkham House, Sauk
      City, WI, 1975.  $.  Mentions ?

292.  Gary Myers, "The Three Enchantments", in THE HOUSE OF THE WORM, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1975.  $.  Mentions ?

293.  Gary Myers, "The Return of Zhosph", in THE HOUSE OF THE WORM, Arkham
      House, Sauk City, WI, 1975.  Mentions Cryptical Books

294.  Gary Myers, "The Gods of Earth", in NAMELESS PLACES, Arkham House, Sauk
      City, WI, 1975.  Mentions Carter, Celephais, Elder Gods, Elder Sign,
      Hatheg-Kla, Kadath, Kaman-Thah, MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI, Nasht, Nath-Horthath.
      By extension, Lord Dunsany's Pegana stories are connected with the Mythos

295.  Gary Myers and Marc Laidlaw, "The Summons of Nuguth-Yug", in WEIRD TALES
      3, Lin Carter, ed., Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1981.
      Mentions Cryptical Books, Gugs, Nodens, Sign of Koth

296.  Charles Partington, "The Manterfield Inheritance", in DARK THINGS, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Hastur?

297.  John Pocsik, "Casting the Stone", in OVER THE EDGE, August Derleth, ed.,
      Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1964.  Mentions d'Erlette, Eibon

298.  Edgar Allan Poe, THE NARRATIVE OF ARTHUR GORDON PYM, ?, ?.  Mentions
      ''tekeli-li''

299.  J. Vernon Shea, "The Haunter of the Graveyard", in TALES OF THE CTHULHU
      MYTHOS, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1969.  Mentions
      Carter, Ghouls

300.  J. Vernon Shea, "A Clerihew", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson, ed.,
      Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.  Mentions Pickman

301.  Michael Shea, THE COLOR OUT OF TIME, Daw Books, 1984.  Mentions Arkham,
      Elder Sign

302.  Walter Shedlofsky, "Many-Columned Iram", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny
      Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.
      Mentions Iram (Irem)

303.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Return of the Sorcerer", Strange Tales,
      September 1931.  Mentions Necronomicon

304.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros", Weird Tales, November
      1931.  Mentions Tsathoggua

305.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan", Weird Tales, June
      1932.  Mentions Tsathoggua

306.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Testament of Athammaus", Weird Tales, October
      1932.  Mentions Tsathoggua, Voormis

307.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Door to Saturn", Strange Stories, January 1932.
      Mentions Eibon, Tsathoggua

308.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Nameless Offspring", Strange Tales, June 1932.
      Mentions Ghouls, Necronomicon

309.  Clark Ashton Smith, "Ubbo-Sathla", Weird Tales, July 1933.  Mentions
      Eibon, Ubbo-Sathla

310.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Holiness of Azederac", Weird Tales, November
      1933.  $.  Mentions ?

311.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Seven Geases", Weird Tales, October 1934.
      Mentions Abhoth, Atlach-Nacha, Serpent People, Tsathoggua, Voormis

312.  Clark Ashton Smith, "Vulthoom", Weird Tales, September 1935.  Mentions
      Aihai, Vulthoom

313.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Coming of the White Worm", Stirring Science
      Stories, April 1941.  Mentions Eibon, Rlim Shaikorth

314.  Lin Carter, editor, ZOTHIQUE, Ballantine Books, 1970.  Contains these
      Zothique stories without direct Mythos connections:  ''Zothique'' (poem),
      ''Xeethra'', ''Necromancy in Naat'', ''The Empire of the Necromancers'',
      ''The Master of the Crabs'', ''The Death of Ilalotha'', ''The Weaver in
      the Vault'', ''The Witchcraft of Ulua'', ''The Charnel God'', ''The Dark
      Eidolon'', ''Morthylla'', ''The Black Abbot of Puthuum'', ''The
      Tomb-Spawn'', ''The Last Hieroglyph'', ''The Isle of the Torturers'',
      ''The Garden of Adompha'', ''The Voyage of King Euvoran''

315.  Lin Carter, editor, HYPERBOREA, Ballantine Books, 1971.  Contains ''The
      Tale of Satampra Zeiros'', ''The Door to Saturn'', ''Ubbo-Sathla'', ''The
      Seven Geases'', ''The Coming of the White Worm'', ''The Weird of Avoosl
      Wuthoqquan'', ''The Testament of Athammaus'', and these Hyperborean
      stories without direct Mythos connections: ''The Ice-Demon'', ''The White
      Sybil'', ''The Muse of Hyperborea'', ''The Theft of Thirty-Nine Girdles''

316.  Lin Carter, editor, XICCARPH, Ballantine Books, 1972.  Contains
      ''Vulthoom'' and these Aihai stories without direct Mythos connections:
      ''The Dweller in the Gulf'', ''The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis''

317.  Lin Carter, editor, POSEIDONIS, Ballantine Books, 1973.  Contains these
      Poseidonis stories without direct Mythos connections:  ''The Muse of
      Atlantis'', ''The Last Incantation'', ''The Death of Malygris'',
      ''Tolometh'' (poem), ''The Double Shadow'', ''A Voyage to Sfanomoe'', ''A
      Vintage from Atlantis'', ''Atlantis: A Poem''

318.  Clark Ashton Smith, "The Colossus of Ylourgne", ?, ? 19??.  Mentions du
      Nord.  Smith's ''Averoigne'' stories, which were collected by Lin Carter
      into one volume, which I haven't seen, are thus all Mythos related

319.  Clark Ashton Smith and Lin Carter, "The Light from the Pole", in WEIRD
      TALES 1, Lin Carter, ed., Kensington Publishing Co. (Zebra Books), 1980.
      Mentions Eibon, Hyperborea, Rlim Shaikorth

320.  Vincent Starrett, "Cordelia's Song (from ''The King in Yellow'')", Weird
      Tales, April 1938.  Poem.  Mentions The King in Yellow

321.  Richard S. Tierney, "The Doom Prophet", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny
      Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Poem.
      Mentions Shoggoths, Yuggoth, Yog-Sothoth

322.  James Wade, "The Deep Ones", in TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1969.  Mentions Deep Ones,
      Innsmouth

323.  James Wade, "Planetfall on Yuggoth", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson,
      ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Mentions Yuggoth

324.  James Wade, "The Silence of Erika Zann", in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU,
      Edward P. Berglund, ed., DAW Books, 1976.  Mentions Zann

325.  Bill Wallace, "Down to the Sea", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny Frierson,
      ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Mentions Innsmouth,
      Dagon

326.  Donald J. Walsh, Jr., "The Rings of the Papaloi", in DARK THINGS, August
      Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1971.  Mentions Shub-Niggurath

327.  Donald Wandrei, "The Lady in Grey", Weird Tales, December 1933.  $.
      Mentions ?

328.  Donald Wandrei, "The Tree-Men of M'Bwa", Weird Tales, December 1933.  $.
      Mentions ?

329.  Donald Wandrei, "Sonnets of the Midnight Hours", in DARK OF THE MOON,
      August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1947.  $.  Mentions ?

330.  Donald Wandrei, THE WEB OF EASTER ISLAND, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI,
      1948.  $.  Mentions ?

331.  Martin Warnes, "Black Tome of Alsophocus", in NEW TALES OF THE CTHULHU
      MYTHOS, Ramsey Campbell, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1980.  $.
      Possible collaboration with Lovecraft.  Mentions ?

332.  Manly Wade Wellman, "The Terrible Parchment", in H.P.L., Meade and Penny
      Frierson, ed., Meade and Penny Frierson, Birmingham, AL, 1972.  Mentions
      Necronomicon

333.  Colin Wilson, THE MIND PARASITES, Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1967.
      Mentions Abhoth, Kadath, Nyogtha, Tsathoggua

334.  Colin Wilson, "The Return of the Lloigor", in TALES OF THE CTHULHU
      MYTHOS, August Derleth, ed., Arkham House, Sauk City, WI, 1969.  Mentions
      Ghatanothoa, Lloigor, Necronomicon, Nug, Rhan Tegoth

335.  Colin Wilson, THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE, Crown Publishers, NY, 1971.
      Mentions Cthulhu, Great Old Ones, Necronomicon

336.  Colin Wilson, THE SPACE VAMPIRES, Random House, New York, 1976.  Mentions
      Ubbo-Sathla


  Cthulhu fthagn!
-- 
Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, cbosgd, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #356
Date: 15 Aug 87 1721-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #356
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 87 1721-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #356
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 15 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 356

Today's Topics:
            Administrivia - SF-Lovers Party at Worldcon,
                    Films - The Quiet Earth (5 msgs) &
                            Aliens (3 msgs) &
                            Robocop & The Thing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 August 1987, 11:15:08 EDT
From: Nicholas Simicich <NJS@ibm.com>
Subject: SF-Lovers Party at Worldcon.

I'm sorry I'm so late with this notice.  I had talked to Saul about
hosting the SF-Lovers party again this year, at Conspiracy, but since
he hadn't heard from me, he probably decided that I had wimped.  But
fear not! (Or perhaps fear lots...)

Anyway, we will be in the Grand Hotel, and I'd like to hold the party
Friday night.  I'm still not sure of the convention schedule, but I'd
like to start the party at 9:00 PM.  If the party is up against the
Hugos, then I'd like to start it after the Hugos are over.

In any case, look for the "@" notices.  Anyone who wants to help can
leave a message at my room, or reply to my netmail address.

Nick Simicich -- NJS@IBM.COM, Bitnet: NJS@YKTVMX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1987  09:25 EDT
From: Rob Austein <SRA@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU>
To: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Jim White)
Subject: The Quiet Earth (***MAJOR SPOILER***)

Originally I too was puzzled by the ending, but considering the
general tone of the movie it's not that hard to understand.  Zack is
trying to atone for his sins by trying to blow up the relay stations,
right?  Well, it seems he has the Curse of the Flying Dutchman.  I
bet there's another net of relay stations on the other**2 world he's
on now, and guess what his reward is for getting rid of this bunch?
Right.

--Rob Austein, MIT Project MAC (or what's left of it, anyway)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 87 15:45:06 EDT
From: Keith Dale <kdale@cc3.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth

                        ****  PURE SPOILERS HERE!! ***

rjp1@ihlpa.att.com writes:

>JWHITE@MAINE.BITNET writes:
>> In the end the scientist drives an 18 wheeler loaded with
>> explosives into the research station, and the movie ends with a
>> scene of him on a beach with what looked like Saturn rising over
>> the horizon. That was meaningless to me. Did he die? Was he
>> successful in restoring the people to the right Earth, at the right
>> time? The symbolism is lost on me, I really want to know what
>> happened. If anybody is aware of the results of his heroic act,
>> lemme know.

>The mechanism that was responsible for the disappearance of almost
>all of the living things on earth was still active.  The scientist
>(I forget his name) had calculated when the next "effect" was going
>to strike.  The only people that survived the "first" effect were
>those who were dying just as this first effect occurred.  The
>scientist realized that when the "second" effect would occur, he too
>would disappear unless he was dying just as it (the second effect)
>occurred.  That's why he drove the 18-wheeler right into the research
>station.  He was not successful (I don't think) in restoring the
>"lost" people back to the earth, but only saved his own skin by
>dying during the "second" effect.

I got  the impression  that he  was  driving the  semi into  the  the
research station more out of  an act (noble?) of self-sacrifice  than
out of self-preservation.   Remember, he was  partly responsible  for
the effect in the first place, as a member of the research team,  and
was having severe misgivings about the morality of the project (which
led to the  suicide attempt  that ironically "saved"  him).  I  think
(opinion only!) he was going to "give his life that the girl and  the
Maori might  live".  Anyway,  he didn't  die -  but not  for lack  of
trying.

He explained  in  his  notes/dialog  on the  tape  recorder  that  he
theorized the effect moved people who were at the point of dying into
a parallel universe.  Maybe it just affected those people and not the
rest of us here on the "real" Earth.

>                                   Too bad he didn't take the woman
>with him!  He ends up on another world, but I don't know how this
>could be?  You'd think he would end up on the earth again, minus the
>woman and the tribesman.
>
>Perhaps the ending of this movie was vague even to the producers...
>
>rj pietkivitch

I  resolved  the  ending  by  saying  that  he  ends  up  on  another
transformed Earth in yet another parallel universe, where anything is
(un-)likely.  The more I considered his plight, the more I felt sorry
for him.  I mean, I get lonely when no one comes in my office all day
- what about how he must  have felt (:-(?  Considered in that  light,
it  was  a   powerful  ending,  even   though  questions  were   left
un-alluded-to, not to mention unanswered (i.e. did he succeed or  was
he finally going to die at the next occurrence of the effect?).

Keith <kdale@cc3.bbn.com>

------------------------------

From: hakanson@orstcs.cs.orst.edu
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth
Date: 27 Jul 87 17:58:00 GMT



>/* Written  9:41 am  Jul 21, 1987 in orstcs:rec.arts.sf-lo */
>/* ---------- "The Quiet Earth" ---------- */
>From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Jim White)
>
>. . .
>In the end the scientist drives an 18 wheeler loaded with explosives
>into the research station, and the movie ends with a scene of him on
>a beach with what looked like Saturn rising over the horizon. That
>was meaningless to me. Did he die? Was he successful in restoring
>the people to the right Earth, at the right time? The symbolism is
>lost on me, I really want to know what happened. If anybody is aware
>of the results of his heroic act, lemme know.
>
>********************** end of big spoiler
>**************************** /* End of text from
>orstcs:rec.arts.sf-lo */

**********  SPOILER CONTINUES **********

If you will recall, the sun/world was becoming more and more
unstable, and toward the end, there was almost another "event" and
they almost ended up being sent off in different directions on their
own (recall the distortions, and them not being able to talk to each
other, etc.).  And they were racing against time at the last to blow
the station up before the world "changed" again -- these events were
getting more and more severe, and he thought that the sun was going
to collapse.  But what seemed to frighten them the most was the
possibility that they would end up in different universes again,
possibly alone.

Anyway, just at the time that he set off the explosion, the dreaded
event occurred again.  And, since he was killed in the explosion, he
survived, ending up all alone in an obviously different place (from
the looks of the sky, and the fact that he wasn't at the beach when
he set off the explosion, but ended up there afterwards).

Well, that's the way I interpreted the ending.  Presumably, the other
two people ended up with the same fate that all the people in the
world did from the first event.  Personally, I thought it was a very
ironic and appropriate ending.  Here he sacrifices himself to save
the other two (and the world), and he ends up surviving.  And let's
not forget that he committed suicide before the first event.  All in
all, a pretty good movie, I thought.

Marion Hakanson         CSnet:  hakanson%oregon-state@relay.cs.net
                        UUCP :  {hp-pcd,tektronix}!orstcs!hakanson

------------------------------

Date: 29-Jul-1987 0559
From: riekj%armory.DEC@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: The Quiet Earth

> In the end the scientist drives an 18 wheeler loaded with
> explosives into the research station, and the movie ends with a
> scene of him on a beach with what looked like Saturn rising over
> the horizon.  That was meaningless to me.  Did he die?  Was he
> successful in restoring the people to the right Earth, at the right
> time?  The symbolism is lost on me, I really want to know what
> happened.  If anybody is aware of the results of his heroic act,
> lemme know.

The scientist was one of the designers of "the grid".  He knew that
it could be destructive, so he quit and tried to commit suicide.
Unfortunately, he lived.  When he went to the lab, he measured the
charge on an electron, and it was changing sinusoidally.  The energy
from the grid had changed the fabric of the universe.  When he drove
the truck one of the generators, it was because he intended to carry
out his original plans of killing himself.  Also, by destroying the
grid, he would save the other two survivors.  There is no way he
could of guessed the exact moment that it would have powered up
again!  Unfortunately (again) it powered up just as he died from the
truck crashing into the generator.  As this happened, he again
survived, and the fabric of the universe was again altered.  When you
see him on the beach, it is because he is the only one who survived
twice.  Both times were purely accidental.  The reason you see Saturn
on the horizon is to show how much the universe has been altered.  I
hope this helps a little.  I saw the movie a little over a year ago
when it was (beweeve it or not) in the theaters.  I didn't care too
much for the movie, although it was fairly entertaining up until the
point when he found the girl.  His monologues were hilarious!
Anyway, certainly not worth $4.50 to see in the theater, but it may
be worth a dollar or two to rent it.....

------------------------------

Reply-to: pnet01!mkao@bass.nosc.mil
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 87 00:52:39 PDT
From: mkao@pnet01.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: The Quiet Earth

I, too, watched this movie and was intrigued by it. Someone requested
an explanation for what happened in the end, when the main guy ends
up on the beach with weird clouds and a ringed planet in the
background. Well, the "colossal governmental mistake" was some
experiment that meddled with subatomic particles. Somehow, the very
nature of the electron was changed; thus, all existing matter became
very unstable, causing predictable, periodic "shifts." These "shifts"
would account for how everybody got relocated, and how the 3
characters got teleported from place to place, and finally: how the
guy ended up on the beach. Apparently, the world changes drastically
with each shift. Thus, we see the strangely shaped clouds and the
Saturn-like heavenly body. I hope that explains things.

Please reply via e-mail instead of the net. Thank you.

                                        -- Mike Kao

UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.mil
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 87 10:38 EST
From: <DAMIAN%JHUIGF.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
From: (If at first you don't succeed, redefine su...)
Subject: Ridley Scott and Alien3

Can anyone verify the rumors I've heard about Ridley Scott (Director
of the original Alien) directing the Alien 3 movie? I've heard this,
but I'm not sure if its true, or just another rumor. I didn't think
that after 2 movies like Legend and The Fly (Which I loved, but did
not-that-well at the box office), his chances were too good.

------------------------------

From: chrisa@tekig5.tek.com (Chris Andersen)
Subject: More Aliens Stuff
Date: 20 Jul 87 17:41:51 GMT



  A comment someone made about the Queen Alien in "Aliens" not being
the last form of the alien sparked an idea in my head.  Some have
suggested (and I agreed with them) that the aliens are a genetically
manufactured war machine used by some other alien race to take over
planets without putting themselves at risk of physical harm.  The
problem is that once the fighting aliens take over the planet, how do
the controlling aliens move in without also getting torn apart by the
warriors?  Possibly the controllers have some means of 'shutting
down' the warriors, but I have an even more neat idea: what if the
warriors, once the planet is secure, EVOLVE into the controlling
race?  The Queen in "Aliens" would then just be a pre-cursor form the
much more intelligent race to follow (just intelligent enough to
co-ordinate the warrior species and defend the hive, but not enough
to actually set up an actual civilization.)

  Perhaps once the indigenous life forms on the planet are consumed
the warriors either die or possibly just go into hibernation (the
aliens in the hive did seem to be in some form of suspended animation
until they were woken up by the presence of the soldiers (possibly at
some signal from the Queen.))

  I figure that a plausible plot-line for the next movie is for some
colonists or explorers to run across a planet that has already gone
through the "consumption" phase and encounter the "next stage" of
development.  The movie could either center around the exploration
party (a group of scientists with a marine detachment? (lead by
Hicks??)) learning to survive the encounter, or the explorers
disappearing and a second party (with Ripley or Newt?) being sent out
to find out what happened.  Eventually they would encounter the
controller aliens and possibly find some way to communicate with them
(and possibly reach some kind of truce?)

------------------------------

From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: USENET sequel to Aliens
Date: 17 Jul 87 15:00:59 GMT


(deleted)
|           copyright 1987                                       |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: lll-lcc!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: ROBOCOP references
Date: 18 Jul 87 08:15:22 GMT

ROBOCOP seems to have a number of references to other science fiction
movies and stories.  I thought the fictional setting in ROBOCOP was
very similar to ABC's Max Headroom series.  There was even a location
in common -- an abandoned steel mill (which I believe is in
Pittsburgh).

Another reference: the stupid TV show everyone was watching had the
tag line "I'd buy that for a dollar!"  This would seem to refer to
the fictional TV show TAKE IT AND STICK IT, from Cyril Kornbluth's
"The Marching Morons".  The tag line in that show was "Would you buy
that for a quarter?"

One more, possibly unintentional: ED-209's voice is the same as the
one used in "Real Genius" when GOD is talking to Kent.  This kind of
ruined the effect for me.  I mean, here's this MEAN looking robot,
and whenever he talks, all I can think of is "Hi Kent.  Have you been
touching yourself?"

Well.  Anyone got any more?
---
Jef

 Jef Poskanzer  unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu  ...ucbvax!unisoft!jef
               "Life's the same, except for my shoes."

------------------------------

From: putnam@thuban.steinmetz (putnam)
Subject: Re: The THING
Date: 21 Jul 87 15:53:37 GMT
Reply-to: thuban!putnam@RUTGERS.EDU (putnam)

In article <2661@rutgers.rutgers.edu> 7GMADISO@POMONA.BITNET writes:
.My personal feeling is that the 'original' THING was a pretty stock
.1950's horror/SciFi flick (Note intentional use of SciFi as a term
.of denigration :-) that took some horrendous liberties with the
.original story, _Who_Goes_There_.

MMM, yup.  But what other movie can boast the following line:

"An intellectual carrot!  The mind boggles."

(Ok, i may have it wrong, but its something like that.)

Well, shall we go?  -- jefu (jeff putnam)
Yes, lets go.       -- UUCP: steinmetz!putnam
(They do not move.) -- ARPA: putnam@ge-crd.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #357
Date: 15 Aug 87 1800-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #357
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 87 1800-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #357
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 15 Aug 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 357

Today's Topics:
             Books - LeGuin & Fuzzies (5 msgs) &
                     Caidin (2 msgs) & First SF (2 msgs) &
                     Janet Morris

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87  20:38:55 EDT
From: FULIGIN%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Peter E. Lee)
Subject: The Earthsea Trilogy

     It seems everyone rates the Earthsea books differently!  It was
Earthsea that first got me hooked on fantasy and SF so many years
ago...  At the time, I thought that the first book was the best, the
second impossibly slow, and the third a close second to the first.
When I re-read the trilogy last year however, my opinions changed.
     This time I found that the pace of 'The Tombs of Atuan' was
entirely appropriate to the story, and not at all boring.  The
rhythms of the book follow the rhythms of life for a young girl, most
of whose existence has been spent in an isolated monastery.  Her life
is not an exciting, biff-pow action adventure.  In 'A Wizard of
Earthsea' Ged's life is one of adventure, strife, and conflict.
Appropriately, the story moves at a much quicker pace.
     I found that the changing rhythms of the stories greatly
enhanced the feeling of atmosphere in each of the books.  This time
through, I liked all three pretty much equally.
     I would highly recommend the series to anyone who hasn't read
them!
                                                         -Peter Lee
Fuligin%UMass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 15:15:53 GMT
From: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
Subject: Re: Origin of the fuzzies

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
>>More recently (about two years ago?) someone found what turned out
>>to be an unfinished manuscript of Piper's third Fuzzy novel.
>
>I think the title to this one is "Federation," although this may be
>inaccurate.

Afraid so.  The titles are, in no particular order:

   _Little_Fuzzy_
   _Fuzzy_Sapiens_
   _Fuzzies_and_Other_People_

Actually, I think these are in the 'right' order, but I'm not sure.
Piper's third Fuzzy novel (as opposed to shaved? :-) has been out
for at least two years now.  Maybe (oh please! ihopeihope!) you mean
a fourth?  (Probably not, though; the third one was "The
Long-Awaited Third Fuzzy Novel!" and had just recently been
published.)

[...]

>"Federation" was in there, but, since I've never bothered to read
>the other Fuzzy books, this one remains in my bookcase at home,
>unread.  I DO know that it at least has something to do with
>Fuzzies, since there are two of them on the cover, along with some
>very military looking folks.

_Federation_, from what I remember, had nothing to do with Fuzzies.
I guess the artist just thought they looked cute (and/or
marketable).  I think it was a 'collection' of four novelettes Piper
wrote, along with a brief biography of Piper.  (As memory returns!)
The stories were supposedly compatible with the Fuzzy
"universe"/"history"; at least two of them were about alien-human
interaction (a first-contact and a long-term contact story).  I
won't spoil them; they weren't all that great, but they made good
bedtime stories.  (Neither of these two had anything at all to do
with Fuzzies.)

Read the Fuzzy novels; they're wonderful books!  The biography was
really sad, though; Piper suicided after his agent died, because he
thought he was deep in debt.  The agent had just completed a sale
that Piper didn't know of, though. . . .  (Sigh)

Michael Justice.
BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu
CSNET: boreas%bucsb@bu-cs
ARPA: boreas@bucsb.bu.edu
UUCP: ...!husc6!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 01:27:27 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU (bms)
Subject: William Tuning (Re: Origin of the fuzzies)

I liked Piper's Fuzzy books, but I have to say that I thought
Tuning's addition to the series was far better.  Much meatier,
fast-paced and yet thought-provoking, with stronger characterization
(though it DID seem to be very true to the original).  I also found
that he used more characters that Piper had, used them appealingly,
even (it was no longer `one man against the system', as I remember
it), but I never really had difficulty following the action.

I did once hear, though, that Tuning died shortly after FUZZY BONES
appeared.  Is this true?  Has he had anything else published?  I
recommend this book, even to those that have not read the other
Fuzzy books.

Becky

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87 12:48:49 CDT
From: Scott Storkel <STORKEL%RICE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: RE: Origin of fuzzies

In SF-Lovers #340, and perhaps others, there was a discussion about
H. Beam Piper's "Fuzzy" novels, and the origin of Fuzzy Sapiens. In
the several postings I read, there was no mention of the fifth fuzzy
book.

The title of this book was _Golden Dream: A Fuzzy Odessey_ and it was
written by Ardath Mayhar (sp?). The book is mainly excerpts of fuzzy
life *before* fuzzies were discovered by humans. The book presents
the view that fuzzies are definitely stranded spacefarers. I haven't
read any of the other fuzzy novels, so I can't say how this book
compares with the others. I read it years ago, but at the time I
liked it.

Also, does anybody know the status of Larry Niven's sequel to the
_Integral Trees_ called, I think, _The Smoke Ring_. It seems that I
saw the last chapter of a serialized version in a magazine some time
ago, but haven't heard or seen anything about it since. Thanks for
the info.

[I think that _The Smoke Ring_ is now out in hardcover. -ds]

Scott Storkel
BitNet:   STORKEL@RICE

SlowBoat: Scott Storkel
          1714 League Line Rd.
          Conroe, TX. 77304

------------------------------

From: mcb@LLL-TIS.ARPA (Michael C. Berch)
Subject: Re: William Tuning
Date: 30 Jul 87 01:48:22 GMT

In article <1987Jul27.212727.893@sq.uucp> bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
> [...]
> I did once hear, though, that Tuning dies shortly after FUZZY BONES
> appeared.  Is this true?  Has he had anything else published?  I
> recommend this book, even to those that have not read the other
> Fuzzy books.

William Tuning committed suicide in, I believe, 1984 or 1985.  I
remember reading the obituary in Locus, and can look up the details
if anyone is interested.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis.arpa
UUCP: {ames,ihnp4,lll-crg,lll-lcc,mordor}!lll-tis!mcb

------------------------------

From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Origin of the fuzzies (SPOILER WARNING!)
Date: 29 Jul 87 23:37:34 GMT

The Fuzzy books in existence are:

H. Beam Piper:
        LITTLE FUZZY
        FUZZY SAPIENS
                These are the books that started it all.

        FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE
                Piper's "lost" Fuzzy book.  It's a widely-held
                opinion that this book should have stayed lost.

William(?) Tuning:
        FUZZY BONES
                I'm still looking for this one... anyone know how I
                can get it?  This one points the Fuzzies out as a
                remnant of a spacefaring race.

Ardath Mayhar:
        GOLDEN DREAM: A FUZZY ODYSSEY
                Based on FUZZY BONES; it traces Fuzzy history from
                their landing on Zarathustra to the end of FUZZY
                SAPIENS -- from the fuzzies' standpoint.

Look for 'em, all but FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE (unless you're a
completist).
--
 Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc and
                                  comp.binaries.ibm.pc
  {{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!cwruecmp!hal}!ncoast!
                                                              allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu  Fido: 157/502
MCI: BALLBERY
<<ncoast Public Access UNIX: +1 216 781 6201 24hrs.
                                                 300/1200/2400 baud>>

------------------------------

From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhye!djl@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Re: Ringing a bionic bell?
Date: 31 Jul 87 17:05:54 GMT

In article <2869@rutgers.rutgers.edu> C78KCK@IRISHMVS writes:
>From: "R. Allen Jervis
>
>I recently found a book entitled "Starbright"
>by Martin Caidin. I thought it was excellent!
> ... so my question
>is has anyone read anything else by him, and
>was it worth seeking out?

The books by him that I know of are:
        The Last Fathom
        The Mendelov Conspiracy
Both of which were very good, especially The Last Fathom.
        Aquarius Mission
        Almost Midnight
        Wingborn
        ManFac
These four were worth keeping, but not up to the first two.


Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{dual,ihnp4,hoptoad}!ptsfa!djl
(415) 823-2408

------------------------------

From: 20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa
Cc: c78kck@irishmvs
Subject: Re: Books by Martin Caidin
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 87 13:33:17 EDT

     Martin Caidin wrote at least one sequel to "Cyborg", as part of
the "Six Million Dollar Man" paperbacks series.  I no longer recall
the title, but it was noticeably better than the sub-contracted jobs.
It was more action/adventure than SF (once you've accepted
nuclear-driven prosthesis! :-) I do recall three other A/A type
books: "Mary Jane Tonight at Angels 12", a good, suspenseful yarn
about drug smuggling; "Anytime, Anywhere", which mostly sticks in my
mind as a rowdy and humorous pilot story; and "Three Corners to
Nowhere", MC's attempt to climb upon the Bermuda Triangle bandwagon--
a good airport book :-).
     Then there are two SF books that I remember: "Marooned", of
which I recall very little (checked out on one of my adolescent "I'm
gonna read this library *DRY*!" expeditions, back when I had the
leisure to gulp two books per diem.  Sigh.); and "The Mendelov
Conspiracy", which dealt with the question "What's left when you have
proven 90% of all UFO sightings false?".  (This is my entry for the
run-on sentence award :-).)  "The Mendelov Conspiracy" was
particularly well-written and suspenseful, with a really neat twist
launching the final third of the book.  It gets my top recommendation
of the bunch; come to think of it, I may just hale myself down to the
Library and find that sucker.
     Hope you enjoy these books.  In any case, thanks for making me
recall TMC.


                                   Regards,
                                   Dave Wegener
                                   aka
                                   20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa

     Stop the packets!!  One more comes to mind, a WWII dogfight
epic.  The title escapes me, but I thought so much of the book at
that time, that I bought a 1/72 scale model of a P-40 and painted it
in the hero's colors.  The title may have been "Dogfight".  --DRW.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 87 16:49:43 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: First SF

     My first SF was not books, but TV series in my childhood. I
watched the Gerry Anderson series "Thunderbirds" and "Captain
Scarlet", and "Dr. Who" from an early age. I remember my favourite
monsters were the Daleks because they alone did not look obviously
like a human in a funny suit. At that time I did not consider such
problems of realism as staircases! I also remember one episode from
"Captain Scarlet" in which one of the Angels crashed in a desert.
The rest of the Angels, followed by Captain Scarlet, all died
heroically.  Finally, the Cloudbase itself was attacked and was in
the process of crashing when a childish row between myself and my
even smaller sister caused my mother to turn off the TV. For years I
wondered how, or if, Spectrum got out of that one. A few months ago,
the old series was shown again, and in a nostalgic fit I watched
that episode again. All this destruction turned out to be nothing
more than the bad dream of the Angel who first crashed in the
desert! So "Dallas" wasn't the first to use that excuse to revive
major characters :-)
     My first "serious" SF was the "Foundation Trilogy", of which
the first book I read was the second in the series, "Foundation and
Empire". As that ended in the middle of the Mule's hunt for the
Second Foundation, I took very little time to get "Second
Foundation", and eventually also "Foundation" itself.  Around this
time, I also read A.E. Van Vogt's "The War Against The Rull". I
liked the way that some of the story was seen from the point of view
of the Rull, so that they weren't just baddies put there so our hero
could save the human race.
     On another note, in ST:TNG, is Data's second name "Way"? If so,
we may have Capt. Picard getting annoyed with him, and telling him
to leave the room.  "Out there, Data Way!"

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 87 11:58:32 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: First SF

Well, I wasn't going to respond to this, but...

I, too, read all those Scholastic Book Services books for kids:
Mushroom Planet, Danny Dunn, Miss Pickerel, etc. Also one about a
boy who fell through an abandoned "door" onto our planet. His name
was Jon, and he had some telepathy with his home peoples, and also
could "lighten his feet" to run faster. I think the title has
something to do with a door (no, not The Door Into Summer).
Eventually he makes it home...funny how I can remember the last line
in the book, but can't come up with the title!!

But!!  I, also, trace the REAL start of my downfall to my mother's
handing me a copy of Andre Norton's "Star Man's Son" that she'd
picked up in a garage sale. I was 13, and we were stationed on
Okinawa. Happily, altho the library didn't have a very good SF
collection, they did have a one-for-one paperback book exchange
program. A lot of GI's read SF, and new stuff from the states was
always coming in. People would always dump off excess books before
they left to decrease their total shipping weight. I vividly
remember bringing in two full brown paper bags of paperbacks (mostly
SF) and leaving them on the librarian's desk 3 days before we came
back to "the world"!!

------------------------------

From: tedric@clinet.fi (Petri Wessman)
Subject: Janet Morris & Merovingen (was: Thieves World)
Date: 31 Jul 87 20:38:31 GMT
Reply-to: seismo!mcvax!tut!santra!clinet!tedric@RUTGERS.EDU

In article <1987Jul27.211409.800@sq.uucp> bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
. . .
>At any rate, it's her work in TW that turned me off Janet Morris
>(not that I had any particular interest in her before), and I'm
>sorry to see involved in CJC's Merovingen Nights.  Comments on that?
>
>-Becky.

I can't comment much on JM's Thieves World stories, the only TW book
I've read is _Storm Season_ which was so fragmented that I really
didn't feel any compelling need to read any more in the series. The
Janet Morris story in _Storm Season_ was, well, *strange* - it
resembled something out of a demented D&D campaign, with gods and
Really Big People Up There playing table tennis with the characters -
in short, I didn't like it.

As to whether MJ is good or bad for Cherryh's Merovingen series, I
think it's still a bit early to say anything. I don't know if _Fever
Season_ is out yet, but it certainly hasn't shown up yet in this part
of the world. The only story that JM was involved in in _Festival
Moon_ is one called "Sword Play" (by Janet & Chris Morris), and
frankly I thought it was one of the best stories is the book.

Well, we'll see... I like Cherryh's works and I'd hate to see
Merovingen go down the drain (or canal, actually :-)!
--
Petri Wessman   (tedric@clinet.UUCP)               <Helsinki,Finland>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~   Uucp: ..mcvax!tut!santra!clinet!tedric  FidoNet:504/1
                "All work and no play --- y'know?"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Aug  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #358
Date: 15 Aug 87 1830-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #358
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Aug 87 1830-EDT
From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #358
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Sunday, 16 Aug 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 358

Today's Topics:
                  Miscellaneous - Watchmen 12 &
                                  Filksongs (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Watchmen 12 (SPOILERS)
Date: 15 Jul 87 23:58:26 GMT

   I just wanted to note that the theme of faking-an-alien-threat-to
unite-the-world has been used in SF before. I encountered it in "The
War Against the Moon" by (I think) Maurois, in one of the Groff
Conklin anthologies. (Which helped me figure out early what Veidt's
scheme was, smirk!). In that, the "Dictators of Public Opinion", five
world press magnates, come up with a scheme similar to Veidt's to
head off a war. Being Dictators of Public Opinion, they simply work
up public emotions with fake newspaper stories of lunar ray attacks.
The scheme backfires when a) a Mad Scientist invents a ray weapon of
his own to "retaliate"; b) it turns out that the Moon really is
inhabited. (The piece was written as a chapter from a future "history
book", written after inter-species communication was made possible by
"The Theory of Sensory Equivalents").
  No doubt readers can think of other possible inspirations.
--
    Will Linden
    {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
    {sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
    {cucard,bc-cis}!wlinden

------------------------------

From: clark@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: s/f songs?
Date: 20 Jul 87 14:46:00 GMT



The address for Off Centaur Publications (write for free catalog) is:
      PO Box 424
      El Cerrito, CA 94530

"Banned From Argo" is in their book The Westerfilk Collection.  If
you'd like a sung version, there might be one (don't have the tapes,
so can't be positive) on one of the earlier Leslie Fish tapes, same
source.

Specifically DRINKING filksongs--can't instantly think of any; a good
drinking song is very difficult to write (kind of like writing an
authentic-sounding sea chantey), and I would bet that any SF ones
floating around are traditional drinking songs with a few words
changed to make them SF.

Regional variation among filksongs: surprisingly large.  In the
Midwest (my stamping ground) what gets sung is predominantly Public
Knowledge songs (anything out of Westerfilk I or II, the popular Off
Centaur tapes, or standards such as Have Some M'Deira, M'Dear), or
One's Own Stuff, expanded as appropriate when XXXX didn't make it to
this convention so you can swipe that person's songs, too.  Go 500
miles and only about 20% of the songs are familiar; this is the % of
Public Knowledge + Own Stuff songs of people whose own regular
territories overlap where you are and where you were.
----Ernest Clark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87 02:44:46 BST
From: RMJ10%CAM.PHX%UK.AC.CAM.ENG-ICF@ac.uk
Subject: Filking

   Regarding filksongs past present and probably future, those
interested might like to know that a collection of filk songs called
"The Old Grey Wassail Test" (groan) will be available at Conspiracy
'87. My personal favorite is "You bash the Balrog and I'll climb the
tree!", a tale of a somewhat unsuccessful D&D expedition.

Rhodri James

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 87 11:52:57 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Filk
From: Wahl.ElSegundo@Xerox.COM

I think Jordan's too modest to plug Off Centaur.  So I'll do it.
Mind you, I have no connections with them beyond being a satisfied
customer.

Off Centaur Publications
P.O. Box 424
El Cerrito, CA  94530

They carry "Banned from Argo" on tape (Skybound) and the original LP
(Solar Sailors).

While I'm plugging . . . I love Leslie Fish, but she's my second
favorite filker.  Tops on my list is Julia Ecklar, and tops on my
list of humourous filksongs, coauthored by Fish and Ecklar, is Rest
Stop, still, I believe, the only country/western space trucker song.

"When I pulled ol' 307 outta Marsport
 Weather station said storms all the way
 They stuck me with a cargo of live chickens
 A dozen drunken miners, an' five hung over Shriners
 The brake jet linings all were worn an' pitted
 An' the gaskets on the cargo hatch were gone
 I figgered we could git as fer as Phobus
 But I didn't think we'd get much further on."

(That's on Genesis, also from Off Centaur)

--Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?
Date: 23 Jul 87 13:07:18 GMT
Reply-to: mtune!rkh@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert Halloran)

In article <83200016@uiucdcsp> clark@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>The address for Off Centaur Publications (write for free catalog) is:
>      PO Box 424
>      El Cerrito, CA 94530
>
>"Banned From Argo" is in their book The Westerfilk Collection.  If
>you'd like a sung version, there might be one (don't have the tapes,
>so can't be positive) on one of the earlier Leslie Fish tapes, same
>source.

'Banned From Argo' is on the LP 'Solar Sailors' that Leslie & her
band, The Dehorn Crew, did back in '77.  The LP is available through
Off Centaur.

                                                Bob Halloran
======================================================================
UUCP: rutgers!mtune!rkh                         home ph: (201)251-7514
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM                                evenings ET
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857
Disclaimer: I am a contractor.  Any opinions stated or implied are
        solely MINE, NOT my agency's, NOT my client's.  Got it?!
Quote: "And we're banned from Argo, every one
       Banned from Argo, just for having a little fun
       We spent a jolly shore leave there, for just three days or four
       But Argo doesn't want us any more (wonder why?)" - L. Fish

------------------------------

From: makosky.applicon!makosky@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re:  SF songs aka filk
Date: 20 Jul 87 16:14:00 GMT



Is the `l' in `filk' silent as it is in folk?

                                                        -Luke

  Lucas H. Makosky

  Applicon, a division of Schlumberger Systems, Inc.
  829 Middlesex Tpk.
  P.O. box 7004
  Billerica MA, 01821

  uucp:
  {allegra|decvax|mit-eddie|utzoo}!linus!raybed2!applicon!makosky
  {amd|bbncca|cbosgd|wjh12|ihnp4|yale}!ima!applicon!makosky

------------------------------

From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: Filk
Date: 29 Jul 87 20:05:53 GMT

In article <2711@rutgers.rutgers.edu>
Lisa_L._Wahl.ElSegundo@Xerox.COM writes:
>From: Wahl.ElSegundo@Xerox.COM
>I think Jordan's too modest to plug Off Centaur.  So I'll do it.
>Mind you, I have no connections with them beyond being a satisfied
>customer.


I am also not modest and don't mind plugging away..

One group that should be mentioned is the FILK FOUNDATION.  The
bi-monthly newsletter is Kantelee and is published by Off-Centar but
the headquarters are in Little Rock, Ark, and I cannot find a
complete issue to tell the address so contact Off-Centar for details.
In addition to the newsletter membership bestows supporting
membership at every FF supported filk-con with all the materials that
go with it.  It also reduces attending membership occhordingly..

Another publication is PHILK-FEE-NOM-EE-NON which was nominated for
an 1984 hugo award.  It is published by Paul Whillet who just moved
but the old mailing address MIGHT still be good:

        Philk-Press
        P.O. Box 599
        Midway City, CA  92655

And then there's Wail Songs
                 P.O. Box 29888
                 Oakland, Ca  94606 USA


And DAG designs: 1810 14th Street, Santa Monica CA  90404

--
======================================================================
! Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc.mil}!crash!     |
|                                                            victoro |
|  ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA and the Byte Information            |
|             eXchange [victoro]                                     |
|                                                                    |
|  "Don't Give Up,                                                   |
|     Because somewhere there's a place, a place where we belong.."  |
=====================================================================@

------------------------------

From: victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear)
Subject: Re: Filk
Date: 30 Jul 87 01:05:14 GMT

In article <1445@crash.CTS.COM> victoro@crash.CTS.COM (Dr. Snuggles)
writes:
>One group that should be mentioned is the FILK FOUNDATION.  The
>bi-monthly newsletter is Kantelee and is published by Off-Centar but
>the headquarters are in Little Rock, Ark, and I cannot find a
>complete issue to tell the address so contact Off-Centar for
>details.

No sooner do I log off when I find an issue of KANTELE #14 (Winter
'84/'85)
        Published by The Filk Foundation
                     P.O. Box 1256
                     Mountain Home, AR  72653
        Edited by:   Margaret Middleton
        Price per:   $1.50
                     Kantele, the folk harp of Finland


>Another publication is PHILK-FEE-NOM-EE-NON which was nominated for
>an 1984 hugo award.  It is published by Paul Whillet who just moved
>but the old mailing address MIGHT still be good:
>
>       Philk-Press
>       P.O. Box 599
>       Midway City, CA  92655

        Try:
        15743 Lemarsdh Street
        Granada Hills, CA  91343

Also drop them a line if you're interested in monthly filksing
gatherings in the Souther California area.. The LA Filkaholics.
--
======================================================================
! Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc.mil}!crash!     |
|                                                            victoro |
|  ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA and the Byte Information            |
|                         eXchange [victoro]                         |
|                                                                    |
|  "Don't Give Up,                                                   |
|      Because somewhere there's a place, a place where we belong.." |
=====================================================================@

------------------------------

From: OK2%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: s/f songs?
Date: 17 Jul 87 03:15:53 GMT

     Does anybody out there know, or know of, songs (or drinking
songs) related to science fiction of fantasy?  Not so much songs from
books, but from the sub-culture that has grown up around sf/f.  I
have heard fragments of a few, some of which are very funny (those
are the types I am most interested in) but I can't recall more than
fragments.  For example, my brother heard a song at a party that had
a chorus something like

    "Banned from Argos everyone!" (Argos? Argus? Sp?)
    "Banned from Argos, just for having a little fun!"
    "We spent a jolly shore leave there for just three days or four,"
    "But Argos doesn't want us anymore!"

     And goes on to describe the activities of several crewmembers
from a star ship (star trek type starship, I think) out on an *ahem*
recreational outing.  Anybody out there know more?

Steve Owens (OK2@psuvma)
reply to SRO@PSUECLA

------------------------------

From: jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?
Date: 17 Jul 87 16:46:25 GMT

>    Does anybody out there know, or know of, songs (or drinking
>songs) related to science fiction of fantasy?  Not so much songs
>from books, but from the sub-culture that has grown up around sf/f.
>I have heard fragments of a few, some of which are very funny (those
>are the types I am most interested in) but I can't recall more than
>fragments.  For example, my brother heard a song at a party that had
>a chorus something like

>    "Banned from Argos everyone!" (Argos? Argus? Sp?)
>    "Banned from Argos, just for having a little fun!"
>    "We spent a jolly shore leave there for just three days or four,"
>    "But Argos doesn't want us anymore!"

>     And goes on to describe the activities of several crewmembers
>from a star ship (star trek type starship, I think) out on an *ahem*
>recreational outing.  Anybody out there know more?

>Steve Owens (OK2@psuvma)
>reply to SRO@PSUECLA

Okay, first of all, that's "Argo", the song is "Banned from Argo", it
was written by Leslie Fish (First Among Filkers, in my humble
opinion), and it is the first filksong most people hear and remember.
It was the first one <I> heard (nigh unto four years ago.)  It's been
around a LONG time (for a filksong), and as a result most filkers
who've been around for a little while will groan loudly if you
request it, because it's been played to death and then some.  But
it's still a very amusing song. (If you want all the lyrics, just
ask.  It's too long to post unless you really want it.)

As for other songs concerned with F&SF fandom, several dozen exist
(maybe hundreds; most filking goes on on the West Coast and I don't
know what percentage filters over here to Boston--not enough for my
taste), far too many to simple start posting them randomly.  Do you
have any specific requests I might be able to fill? (My filk
collection recently expanded to a third 2-inch ring binder, plus
several published songbooks.  Most of this is gleaned from
transcribing Off Centaur tapes and trading with other filkers.)

If you're willing to put out some cash, you can get tapes of
filksongs from the aforementioned Off Centaur publications (don't
have the address with me at the moment--didn't Jordin Kare use to be
on this net?  Jordin? You out there?) as well as songbooks of some of
it with lyrics and guitar chords.  Most live con tapes are a mixture
of some serious and some humorous songs (and some just plain weird
ones) in varying degrees of quality.  If you're primarily interested
in humour, you should keep an eye out for the name Frank Hayes.  He
writes a moderate number of wickedly funny filks (the man has a SICK
mind, be warned).  The only trouble you might have is that he tends
to parody other "serious" filks a great deal, so you might not get
all the jokes unless you have something of a filk background.

Hmm, this is getting a bit long.  If you'd be a bit more specific
about what kind of songs you'd like to see, I'd have better luck
posting some that would interest you.  (I'll flame about filksongs
until the sun goes down, given the opportunity.)

                        Jen Hawthorne

------------------------------

From: williams@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?
Date: 17 Jul 87 16:41:41 GMT

Well, if anyone is interested, I could post the lyrics to my filksong
"The Battle Hymn of the Retreat," a Star Trek parody that won an
honorable mention in the Boskone filksong contest a couple of years
back.

Also, I believe Off Centaur Publications sells tapes of filksongs of
all types.

(For those wondering, a filksong is a folksong written by and for
sf/f fans.)

--
                                              Karen Williams

"Everyone is entitled to an *informed* opinion." - Harlan Ellison

------------------------------

From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: s/f songs?
Date: 19 Jul 87 19:00:33 GMT

In article <1160@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> jen@nessus.UUCP (Jennifer
Hawthorne) writes:
>have any specific requests I might be able to fill? (My filk
>collection recently expanded to a third 2-inch ring binder, plus
   One _I_ would like to see is "The Ballad of the Three Fans", which
I heard at Noreascon II. It is presumably a parody of Poul Anderson's
"Three kings went riding", and describes a fantasized revenge after
some con at the Hyatt Los Angeles. "Three fans went down to Los
Angeles town......"
  "And to Hell with the Hyatt Hotel".
--
    Will Linden
    {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
    {sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
    {cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #359
Date:  2 Sep 87 1212-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #359
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Sep 87 1212-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #359
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 359

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Recommendations (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 87 12:26 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: fantasy recs

> Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series is
> a fantastic read...

Does anybody know if this is the series containing _October's Baby_
and the stuff about El Murid?  I keep looking for titles in this
series and all I've ever been able to find is two.  One was
_October's Baby_ and the other, which I've lost, is (I guess) the
first of the El Murid books (the one that's about how El Murid got
his start in televangelism).  I also remember a story in _Dragons of
Darkness_ by Glen Cook, from this same world, after all the wars are
over.  It was this story that first got me interested.  I find this
stuff very strange and confusing, which may be because I can only get
little snatches of the series.  Information on titles and pub. status
would be MUCH appreciated.

>> If "shared world" anthologies are more your style, try "Llyavek:
>> Players of Luck". (Pardon the misspelling - I

I recommend these books highly.  I think the creation of the world
was very thoughtful and thorough.  There were two things that
especially impressed me:

*** SEMI-SPOILER ***

1.  Cheap, convenient, and effective contraception.  Much as I
dislike the barefoot-and-pregnant role of many female characters in
fantasy, I have to admit that in "worlds" whose creators don't invent
good contraception, it's almost inevitable that there will be a
certain amount of this (possible exception: matrifocal/matriarchal
society of Lynn's _Northern Girl_, in which women are heirs of
preference and men generally leave their families and enter their
wives' when/if they marry).  Worrynot is a great device because it
frees the Liavek writers from restrictions on their female
characters.

2.  LUCK.  In theory, at least, anyone can invest luck and become a
wizard.  Granted, it helps if you've got enough money to get mage
training first, but it's not absolutely necessary.  It's a nice
economic leveling device (see what happens to Elmutt in _Liavek_).

*** END SPOILER ***

> Sheri S. Tepper is an original writer - rather say different...The
> middle trilogy is a bit of an interlude that doesn't move the
> meta-plot along at all, and is generally forgettable.

I don't agree.  In _Flight_ you get some background on some
characters (e.g.  Himaggery, Windlow, Mavin, Mertyn).  Second one (is
that _Song_ or _Search_) has Beedie, who also comes in in the third
trilogy, plus the stickies, which turn out to be pretty important,
and also the first reference to the world's dying (although you don't
know that's what it is until later).  Third one has the shadow-stuff.

To be honest, I expect I would have had the same reaction as everyone
else if I had known that I was reading not a trilogy of books about
Mavin, but the second third of a nine-book series, the first part of
which was Kings Blood etc.  I knew that this was the same world (and
some of the same people) as the King's Blood series, but I didn't
think there was *supposed* to be any big connection between them.  If
I had, I doubt I would have even started the Mavin books. I *hate*
long series because of the way most authors do them.  I think this
series succeeded *because* of what Tepper did in the middle trilogy.
The plot doesn't just kind of slam along in a linear direction.
Instead, you get sort of parallel development and background that can
be neatly drawn together in the third series.  Granted, a lot (even
most) of what goes on in the Mavin books is not directly related to
the meta-plot, but sometimes you need a break from the Big Fat
Plot-and-Theme when you're reading a series :) I LIKE THE MAVIN
BOOKS.

> Patricia McKillip...There's another book in the same vein about a
> woman who has a way with mythical animals, but I can't recall the
> title. I DO remember that there were two copies of it at the used
> book store, and I bought the cheaper one, even though it had a
> badly drawn cover.

I haven't seen the hardcover of _Forgotten Beasts of Eld_ in about
ten years, but as I recall it was a beautiful cover.  Plot and themes
and setting are totally different from Riddlemaster books, but the
tone and mood are very similar.


Who do *I* recommend for fantasy?  Elizabeth Lynn and Ursula LeGuin
are my two all-time favorite world-builders.  Some of Lynn is fantasy
(Arun series) and some is future fiction (_Sardonyx Net_, _A
Different Light_) and both types are equally delicious.  My favorite
book by LeGuin is _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_.  I don't know that
it's the best book she ever read, but I once did a version of
"stranded on a desert island with only five books".  WTQ was one of
the five, and it stood the test very well.  I still go back and
reread it every year or so, and it's still delightful.

It's time for me to shut up and go away now.

M^2

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 87 19:22:31 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>KIMMEL@ecs.umass.edu writes:
>>Can anyone recommend something new for me to read?  Fantasy is
>>preferred, but I'll read Science Fiction in a pinch.
>
>Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series is
>a fantastic read, and there's another one, sort of a science
>fantasy series, that involves a tribe of wolf-people/mystics. I can
>never find any past the first book, though that one was fantastic.
>Can't remember the name.

   That would be the "Darkwar" series.  It had its moments.  I'll
second the Dread Empire universe books (now up to 6, but not all of
them closely linked.)  The Black Company books (three out, fourth on
the way) are what I think of as his best work, though Dread Empire
is also strong.  He has also done two one-shot pieces, a
submarine-to-spaceship translation (a lot better than I expected it
could be) and a SF-detective cross that good in an experimental way.
As you might have guessed by now, I like Glen's work.
   The book I can hardly wait for though is "The Dragon Never
Sleeps", the story Glen described as his "magnum opus".  It will be
straight SF.  The background as he described it was a distant (in
time) galactic civilization where peace has been the norm for a
couple of millennia due to a fleet of ships.  The ships are huge,
and each one keeps its crew in suspended animation until it feels it
is nearing action.  The crews themselves, when they do awaken, find
themselves in a strange place where other than the names and the
ship itself everything is different.  Over the millennia the ships
have extensively modified themselves, to the point that no-one
outside really knows what they are capable of.  To the contemporary
population of the galaxy the ships seem strange and alien.  A few of
the ships have modified themselves to the point where other *ships*
avoid them because they seem so strange.  As with all such powers,
there are those who think that they would profit if the ships
weren't there to watch things...
   I pick up Glen's stuff whenever I see it. Since I get Locus I
usually know in advance of his book's appearances on the shelves,
and start haunting the bookstores as they are due to appear on the
shelves.  Locus just reviewed his newest (_Sweet Steel Blue_, or was
it Sweet Blue Steel???  oh well, something like that) and rated it
as among the best stuff he's done, but it hasn't arrived in
Lexington yet.

>Roger Zelazny has done more fantasy than the convoluted "Amber"
>series... And a lot of it better. Look for a collection of short
>stories, "Dilvish the Damned", and it's novel length sequel, "The
>Changing Land". And when you're done those, go straight to "The
>Changeling" and "Madwand", and watch for similarities. "Roadmarks"
>might be fantasy. Just read everything he's written, although you
>may find "The Dream Master" weak and predictable.

   While I agree with your recommendation of the Dilvish stories, I
have to disagree with the one for Changeling and Madwand, in my
opinion these were definitely 'minor' Zelazny's.  You left out what
is perhaps his two best 'fantasies' (both have minor SF elements),
"Jack of Shadows" and "Creatures of Light and Darkness".  (Though
for my money, the beginning of "Nine Princes in Amber" is the best
hook in any SF novel I've ever read.  For that matter you can cross
out the "SF" in the last line...)  "Lord of Light has a lot of
fantasy elements in it, to the point where some people argue that it
is straight fantasy.  It is my favorite book, bar none.  Definitely
read some Zelazny.

>Patricia McKillip - can't forget her. The power of the realm is
>trapped in riddles, and a riddlemaster holds as much power as they
>riddles he can answer.  The "Riddlemaster of He'd" is a good book,
>but then she focuses on a minor character from the first book for
>the next two, and it's not as fun.

   I disagree.  The last book did NOT focus on a minor character,
and the second and third books were every bit as good as the first.

>There's another book in the same vein about a woman who has a way
>with mythical animals, but I can't recall the title. I DO remember
>that there were two copies of it at the used book store, and I
>bought the cheaper one, even though it had a badly drawn cover.

   "The Forgotten Beasts of Eld".

   You left out a very good writer.  Steven Brust seems to write
only fantasy, and I have yet to see anything he's written that I
haven't liked, and there are a number of people on the net who will
agree with that.  Check him out.
   Another type of book you might want to look into are the
translations of some of the Icelandic Sagas that Penguin Books
prints.  They are in the process of reprinting a lot of these, so
you should be able to find them, or at least order them.  They have
a lot of the fantastic in them and if you stick to the Pallson and
Magnusson translations they are quite readable.  Have fun.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 22:43:29 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!man!wolf!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
> Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series
> is a fantastic read, and there's another one, sort of a science
> fantasy series, that involves a tribe of wolf-people/mystics. I
> can never find any past the first book, though that one was
> fantastic. Can't remember the name.

I don't remember the individual names, but the books in question are
collectively known as the Darkwar trilogy. They're published in
paperback by Spectra.

> .. the first Thieve's World volume ("Tales of the Vulgar Unicorn"?
> Not sure.)

Tales From the Vulgar Unicorn.

> Patricia McKillip - can't forget her. The power of the realm is
> trapped in riddles, and a riddlemaster holds as much power as they
> riddles he can answer.  The "Riddlemaster of Hed" is a good book,
> but then she focuses on a minor character from the first book for
> the next two, and it's not as fun. There's another book in the
> same vein about a woman who has a way with mythical animals, but I
> can't recall the title. I DO remember that there were two copies
> of it at the used book store, and I bought the cheaper one, even
> though it had a badly drawn cover.

The Forgotten Beasts of Eld. And the cover is pretty awful on the
earlier edition.

And now, a few suggestions of my own.

Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders books are a weird hybrid of SF and
fantasy, and one of my all-time favorite series. Take a look.

Joel Rosenberg is a new writer that looks promising. He hasn't
written many books, but has completed a series. Actually, part one
of a dual series.  (There's gotta be a word for that.) In "Guardians
of the Flame" Rosenberg takes the cliched concept of role-players
being transported to the world of their game. In this case, a nasty
DM sort does the transporting, leaving the group stuck in a fantasy
world with only one way back: defeat a typically powerful dragon.
Predictable in places, but it is a (pleasant?) surprise when he
kills off one of the main characters in the first few chapters. The
character does NOT get magically resurrected.

Terry Brooks. Well, one of the better known of the crop of
Tolkienesque fantasy writers. His latest, Magic Kingdom For
Sale--Sold! takes another cliched concept: someone being transported
to a fantasy world (sound familiar?)  and becoming the king. His new
land is in deep trouble, and he must pull it out. Only twist here is
that the protagonist BUYS this magical land from a mail-order
catalog. A bargain at one million dollars.

Enough for now. I'm not going to duplicate Bruce's 160+ line
article.  Between him, me, and any others you receive, you should be
reading for a while.

Bill Wisner
..{sdcsvax,ihnp4}!jack!wolf!billw

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 01:08:07 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

At risk of having my terminal catch fire next time I read my mail,
I'll insert corrections for some things to help seekers after
fantasy....

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>"Llyavek: Players of Luck". (Pardon the misspelling - I haven't
>read the

LIAVEK: PLAYERS OF LUCK

>She's done a lot of good fantasy - "The Christening Quest", "The
>Drastic Dragon of Some Obscure Town in Texas", etc. Little depth,
>but fun.

THE DRASTIC DRAGON OF DRACO, TEXAS

This one is easy to remember if you recall where "Draco" comes
from....  (the word itself, not referencing the story).

>Strange - Larry Niven also wrote an episode of that horrible live
>action Saturday morning show of the '70's, "Land of the Lost".
>What some people will do for money.

(Not a title, a pet peeve.)

Niven seems quite good at doing stupid things for money.  Being a
fan of both Star Trek (including the animateds, ADF notwithstanding)
and of the Known Space series, I got my poor little head twisted
violently when I followed one of the Animated "Star Trek Logs"
(SLAVER WEAPON) with RINGWORLD, whereupon our friend Chuft-Captain's
vegetarian attacker suddenly mutated from a Vulcan to a Pierson's
Puppeteer....

>Sheri S. Tepper is an original writer - rather say different. Read
>some of the books of the "True Game" series - the first three
>(Necromancer Nine, King's Blood Eleven, and another.) are best, and
>the last three answer all

KING'S BLOOD FOUR, NECROMANCER NINE, and WIZARD'S ELEVEN.

>Larry Niven has written some good fantasy...

Expansion upon this: look up the Svetz series of short stories (THE
FLIGHT OF THE HORSE).  On the one hand, it's time travel from the
future; on the other hand, with the kind of beasties Svetz keeps
finding in the past, it's no wonder he doesn't like time travel!
Fun read.  (The SF aspects aren't usually too visible, although one
can argue that time travel is more fantasy than SF anyway.)  Watch
for the Secretary-General's pet horse and ostrich.

<Not a bibliographer, just an avid F and SF reader>

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!cwruecmp!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #360
Date:  2 Sep 87 1232-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #360
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Sep 87 1232-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #360
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 360

Today's Topics:

                 Films - The Quiet Earth (3 msgs) &
                         Aliens (3 msgs) & Labyrinth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 87 02:19:11 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth (!SPOILER!)

Let me take a crack at this.  I saw "The Quiet Earth" a couple of
times on one of the cable channels, and I feel it's one of the best
SF movies in recent years.  Certainly not up to 2001, but a great
deal better than most of the releases for the past two or three
years.

I don't recall whether they said that governments or defense were
involved.  What they did say was that the project was international,
and that the US was involved.  But there was information,
fundamental as it turned out, that the US had refused to share.  The
idea of the project, or so the New Zealanders were led to believe,
was to establish a network of raw energy around the Earth, which
could be tapped at need by anything requiring it.  I think they
specifically intended it for aircraft, so they could stay up on a
semi-permanent basis.

One thing that is pretty clear is that it had nothing to do with
nuclear weapons, which I found a welcome relief for this class of
film.

To survive the Effect, it seems clear to me that you had actually to
be dying.  Just having died (as had the old couple whose bodies were
found in the car accident) apparently left your body intact, but did
not restore you; and of course, actually being alive would leave you
dead.

The ending:

Zack had had a period of terrible loneliness before he encountered
the woman (whose name I just can't remember), and he must have seen
that he was losing her to the Maori.  Though she tried to be
even-handed between them, the Maori was obviously her favourite; and
Zack couldn't have found the idea of returning to solitude
tolerable.  It was apparent that a) even without the Maori, she
would not have him, and b) somebody had to drive the lorry full of
dynamite into the facility that supported a "leg" of the power
network.  The person who did was most unlikely to survive.  The
Maori should survive for her, and wanted to; Zack had no future with
her, and didn't much want to survive.  Finally, he knew best of all
of them what had happened (and that he was in some measure to
blame).  So he drove the truck.

As for the timing, all I'm sure of is that he wanted to get the
station destroyed no later than the start of the Effect, and
preferrably before it.  I very much doubt that he planned to use it
to survive -- death would have been a release for him.  In the
event, however, the lorry turned out to be too heavy for the roadway
into the station, and the cab dropped through, hanging into the
complex below.  This blew his chance actually to get near the
transmitter, and he felt the Effect beginning, so he set off the
load of dynamite by hand control.  This, of course, meant once again
that he was dying just as the Effect reached its height.

Now, the result of the Effect is a re-organisation of reality.  The
first one caused the elimination of all living animal and fish
bodies.  It also caused certain known physical constants to acquire,
not only new values, but varying values: Zack continually measured
them right up to the second Effect.

What did the second Effect cause?  We know of only one result, for
certain:

(Pardon the length of all this, but I want to point out how little
we see on which to judge, and also how I see the ending.)

When the bizarre visual effects of the Effect had passed, Zack found
himself lying on a beach.  The station he'd just blown up was
nowhere near a beach.  By the sunlight, it was evening, and the sea
was very calm.  Clouds were in the sky out to sea.  Rather odd
clouds.  They dropped thick stems toward the ocean, rather like
waterspouts, but white and fluffy.  And as you watched the scene,
you became aware that something was moving, but too slowly to see
the motion: like the minute hand on a clock.  After a few moments of
uncertainty, you realised that behind the clouds, something big and
white was rising.  It looked at first like part of the clouds, being
the same colour, until you realised its outline was too smooth.  In
fact, this was a marvellous bit of photography: the new shape was
unidentifiable until about half of it was clear of the clouds.  Then
suddenly, you saw what it was, and your whole preconception of where
you were was violently changed.

You were on a moon of a giant, ringed planet.  And as Zack got to
his feet, you saw his face, with his jaw sagging.  And you felt the
same shock and bewilderment.

My feeling is that though Zack failed to stop the Effect, he changed
its result: either he was transposed a fantastic distance, or Earth
and its neighbours suffered an even more fantastic transformation.
There is absolutely no way to tell which.  I think probably he
prevented any further Effects, and I certainly hope so.  With luck,
the destruction of that one "leg" of the power network would have
made the rest of it fall apart, as he had intended.

I can only wonder about the woman and the Maori.  I hope either of
two things: either the explosion was so big it caught them, even
though they were a quarter of a mile or so from the station; or the
Effect was changed enough no longer to be fatal if you weren't
dying.  Did either one happen?  Open question.

I also wonder about Zack.  Where is he?  Is there food and shelter
there?  In fact, is the place capable of supporting human life at
all?  Again: open question.

A film that presents questions and fails to answer them is something
I find quite irritating: it usually seems more of a lapse in
plotting, or pseudo-cleverness, than good design.  But I don't think
this is true of "The Quiet Earth".  Instead, I think it deliberately
avoided convenient answers, because Zack wouldn't have them; and
more than anything, it wanted to convey Zack's view.  You feel the
utter shock that a normal person would feel if, in the middle of
looking out over the South Pacific on a calm evening, he suddenly
realised he wasn't even on Earth.  The first time I saw that, my
face must have looked almost the same as Zack's.

My understanding of the vanished people was that they had simply
been annihilated, so suddenly and quietly that bedclothes didn't
even drop into the gaps that sleepers left.  That they'd all simply
been put elsewhere never occurred to me.  The most I can say about
it, thinking it over, is that it seems unlikely (barring any
statements of Zack's to the contrary -- I can't remember any, but he
does some rapid theorising.)  So I don't think there is a question
of whether he restored them.  There were none to restore.

I personally don't think symbolism was involved.  Possibly in the
tiny Effects in the days before the final evening, but not
otherwise.  Zack's experiments were obviously intended as objective
measure.  I think that, within the story, what was shown is what
actually happened.

So, to summarise my feelings:
  The Effect was real: no symbolism was involved.

  There were no other people to restore.

  Zack's destroying the station certainly changed the Effect, to a
  sufficient extent that I suspect he succeeded in preventing any
  more of them.  Though, given his amazing position, I wonder if
  another shuffle or two of the Universe's cards wouldn't be more in
  his favour than otherwise?

  I don't think there's any telling what happened to the woman and
  the Maori, and I would have liked to know.  He seemed rather a
  rotten sort, but she was interesting, and in fact, got along great
  with Zack until the Maori showed up.  But I think there are
  grounds for hoping they survived.

Please pardon the length of this discussion, but I really feel there
is much more to this film than to the great majority of SF films of
the past few years, and I really wanted to go into it.  I hope you
get something out of it.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 21:29:39 GMT
From: gtchen@faline.bellcore.com (George T. Chen)
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth (!SPOILER!)

I've been reading all these "The Quiet Earth" articles and it's
prompted a question.

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>Now, the result of the Effect is a re-organisation of reality.  The
>first one caused the elimination of all living animal and fish
>bodies.  It also caused certain known physical constants to
>acquire, not only new values, but varying values ...

There were also other articles where it was stated (postulated) that
the Effect was universal.  If this is true, then wouldn't other
civilizations, other worlds, other galaxies also be affected.
Couldn't another society, also developing some type of field,
accidentally stumble upon the Effect and thereby destroy the Earth
(and everything else).  Or would this effect spread out at the speed
of light instead of being instantaneous?

George Chen

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 87 22:21:04 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!gnome@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary)
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth (!SPOILER!)

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU says:
>I don't recall whether they said that governments or defense were
>involved.  What they did say was that the project was
>international, and that the US was involved.  But there was
>information, fundamental as it turned out, that the US had refused
>to share.  The idea of the project, or so the New Zealanders were
>led to believe, was to establish a network of raw energy around the
>Earth, which could be tapped at need by anything requiring it.  I
>think they specifically intended it for aircraft, so they could
>stay up on a semi-permanent basis.

As an aside, I posted this a while ago under the topic "Life
imitates Art":

The experiment was called "Project Flashlight" (?) and involved a
large number of power transmitting stations linked together around
the world that allow aircraft to remain airborne for long periods of
time.  Instead of carrying fuel, the aircraft would draw power from
the "grid".

Well, according to the May 7, 1987 MACHINE DESIGN (pp. 18),
Lockheed-Georgia has entered a proposal to create a smaller version
of "Project Flashlight".  Their idea is to beam 2 Megawatts of power
(as microwaves) at their unmanned planes in order to keep them in a
figure-8 watchdog position over an area for 60 to 90 days.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 87 05:16:14 GMT
From: seismo!uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: More Aliens Stuff

chrisa@tekig5.TEK.COM (Chris Andersen) writes:
>  A comment someone made about the Queen Alien in "Aliens" not
>being the last form of the alien sparked an idea in my head.
> [ background comments deleted ]
>...what if the warriors, once the planet is secure, EVOLVE into the
>controlling race?  The Queen in "Aliens" would then just be a
>pre-cursor form the much more intelligent race to follow (just
>intelligent enough to co-ordinate the warrior species and defend
>the hive, but not enough to actually set up an actual
>civilization.)

What a bizarre coincidence -- just today I was thinking to myself
about the original "Alien" movie.  Remember that Alien skeleton,
with its gut burst open, that the crew found in that derelict ship?
It struck (and still strikes) me that that Alien was shaped a lot
like the warrior aliens -- same elongated head, similar facial
structure.

Chris' idea provides a perfect answer to my wonderings.  Suppose
that the original alien ship belonged to the "evolved" Alien race.
Suppose further that for some reason, perhaps a hormonal imbalance
among the crew due to lack of certain supplies, Aliens of the
warrior class began developing on board, and could not be controlled
by the "evolved" Aliens on board, who were eventually decimated by
their warrior cousins.

The Alien ship crashlands (or maybe the crash landing precipitates
the outbreak), and the last surviving members of the "evolved" crew
set up the distress signal that is later picked up by The Company.

Thus, the dead alien in the first movie might plausibly be a member
of the ill-fated original "evolved" crew!

This all seems to dovetail with unusual grace and beauty.

Looks like Chris may have a winner here . . .

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.UUCP
University of Nevada - Reno

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 02:58:09 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: More Aliens Stuff

malc@tahoe.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>...It struck (and still strikes) me that that Alien was shaped a
>lot like the warrior aliens -- same elongated head, similar facial
>structure...

Folks who have access to it might check out the book about the
making of 'Alien' that came out around the time the movie was
released. The original concept involved the crew of the Nostromo
descending into a pyramid and discovering the alien eggs beneath a
sort of altar; there's a painting shown in the book of alien
hieroglyphics in the pyramid surrounding an illustration showing an
apparently religious theme involving a chest-burster erupting from
an adult alien's chest in the presence of another (worshiping?
assisting?) alien. The original concept for the movie seems to have
involved definitely intelligent and cultural (though perhaps
nontechnological) aliens.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: Sun 16 Aug 87 14:31:05-CDT
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: re: Alien 3

From: <DAMIAN%JHUIGF.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> Can anyone verify the rumors I've heard about Ridley Scott
> (Director of the original Alien) directing the Alien 3 movie? I've
> heard this, but I'm not sure if its true, or just another rumor. I
> didn't think that after 2 movies like Legend and The Fly (Which I
> loved, but did not-that-well at the box office), his chances were
> too good.

I thought The Fly had done ok $-wise, hadn't it?  It got lots of
acclaim in any case.  But it's a moot point since Cronenberg, not
Scott, directed it!

The July Locus mentions that William Gibson is signed to write the
script for Alien 3!  No comment on whether Sigourney Weaver will
star again.

By the way, I loved Aliens as much as the next guy, but the final
battle scene bugged me: the loader exoskeleton made Ripley look like
a corny Japanese robot toy to me!  And the infamous line "Get away
from her, you bitch!" made me groan all 3 times I've heard it; it
did not work for me at all!  I know I'm in the minority on this, but
is there anyone else who had this reaction?  (MY favorite line was
"I say we nuke the planet from orbit; it's the only way to be sure!"
or whatever, but that one never caught on...)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 10:46:52 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Subliminals in Labyrinth

>Just saw "Labyrinth" for the first time last night, and was
>extremely pleased.  However, the conclusion remains to be drawn.
>Was it a dream?  Was it reality?

You mean you don't believe in goblins and such like the rest of us?
I vote for reality.  Your mention of the Escher print and such are
well taken, but I took them to be just little jokes on the part of
the production staff, since they are so subtle.

Who knows?

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #361
Date:  2 Sep 87 1312-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #361
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Sep 87 1312-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #361
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 361

Today's Topics:

               Books - Looking for Stories (2 msgs) &
                       Upcoming Books & Sequels (3 msgs) &
                       Authors as Characters (3 msgs) &
                       A Query (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 14:08:37 GMT
From: geovision!alastair@RUTGERS.EDU (Alastair Mayer)
Subject: Looking for giant meteor impact stories

Jim Baen (of Baen Books) is looking for (previously published)
stories about or backgrounded by major eco-catastophes caused by
giant meteor strike (eg 'dinosaur killer').  He's being a little
cryptic about *why* he wants these (I have my suspicions, but..)
The general idea is something like the falling of the 'foot' in
"Footfall", or "Lucifer's Hammer", ("The Dinosaurs Look Up"? :-) but
in short story or at most novelette length.
   I can't think of any less than book length myself ("When Worlds
Collide"?)  but if you can, mail me the relevant details (author,
title, and if possible where first published) and I'll forward the
whole mess off to Jim.  I'll post a list here, too, if you're
interested.
   Thanks.

Alastair JW Mayer
...!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!alastair

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 18:03:49 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!gfox@RUTGERS.EDU (Gregory Fox)
Subject: Desired books

I am looking for two books which I would dearly love to get my hands
on.  The first is _Bill, the Galactic Hero_, by Harry Harrison.
Space humor type stuff.  Young cadet, Bill, ventures from farming
planet into a cruel universe, meets Deathwish Drang, the evil Drill
instructor.  Loses an arm, but there's a shortage of right (?) arms,
so he gets another left.  That sort of thing.  It was in print, then
it was out of print, then it was supposedly back in print, but I
tried ordering it with no success.  Does someone have this book?
Where did you get it?  Can I get a copy, too?

The other book is _The Lathe of Heaven_, by Ursula LeGuin.  Most
certainly not out of print, but I value this book so dearly that I
would desperately love a first edition copy.  Where might I come by
such an edition?  Also, _The Lathe of Heaven_ was made into a PBS
special, which I only saw once but also dearly loved.  I believe
something was posted a while back about the rights to the film
having expired, so that it would neither be seen on TV or tape
anytime soon.  Does anyone know any more about this?  Finally, has
anyone ever met Ursula LeGuin?  Does she ever do any public
appearances?  I am not the stereotypical "biggest fan", but I have
derived an enormous amount of pleasure from Mrs. LeGuin's work and,
if she does do any speaking engagements, I would very much like to
see one.

Well, that's that.  Thanks in advance for any help.  Live well.  God
Bless.

Happy Trails,
GS

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 16:41:56 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Books in your Future: St. Martin's Press

Here's the upcoming fall releases for the St. Martin's SF and Horror
lines.

SF

Paperbacks:

August: Sundipper by Paul B. Thompson. 224 pages. Original.

September: I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon by P.K. Dick. 208 pages.
   Reprint Doubleday hardcover.

October: Starpirate's Brain (The Exchameleon book 2) by Ron Goulart.
   192 pages. Original.

November: Tales from the Planet Earth created by Frederik Pohl &
   Elizabeth Anne Hull. 288 pages, reprint St. Martin's hardcover.

Hardcovers:

August: The Movement of Mountains by Michael Blumlein, 304 pages.

August: Stepfather Bank by D.C. Poyer, 256 pages.

September: Starkadder by Bernard King. 256 pages; fantasy

Horror

Paperbacks:

August: The Crone by Bill Garnett. 224 pages, reprint Sphere(UK).

September: Tales of the Dark 2 edited by Lincoln Child, 192 pages.

October: Cutting Edge, edited by Dennis Etchison, 320 pages,
   reprint, Doubleday hardcover

November: Aftershock by Robert Walker. 256 pages, original.

Hardcovers:

July:  Next, After Lucifer by Daniel Rhodes, 256 pages.

Lots of upcoming news in the publishing field, including information
on the upcoming Interzone anthology and Kate Wilhelm's new novel
will be in the Publishing Notes section of OtherRealms #18, out
sometime in September. See you there!

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 22:33:32 GMT
From: cpf@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Sequels

This is a request for information about when the sequels to certain
books will be published.  I originally intended to ask about a
comprehensive list of books, until I realized just how many
SF/fantasy books are expecting sequels. (I gave up on the idea when
I wrote down more than 50 books in just a few minutes.)  So here is
a request about a few selected books.  As an incentive to read this,
I add capsule opinions about each of the works that these books will
be sequels to.  (General disclaimer: these are MY opinions, no one
else's; feel free to disagree with them, but please don't insult me
for having them.  Also, all the opinions expressed here are
favorable; there are lots of books that I don't like, but I would
not bother asking when their sequels are coming out!)

Longest awaited: Fifth (and final?) book in Roland Green's Wandor
series.  Fourth book was published in 1981; back page of that book
has advertisement for rest of series, states that "Wandor's Sword"
is "coming soon".  (At least the wait is not as bad as that between
the third and fourth books in Vance's "Demon Princes" series.)

Roland Green is the most annoying writer of SF/fantasy publishing
today.  He writes reasonably good stuff, but has no less than five
(5) different series going, and he has never finished anything, just
started new series.  The Wandor books are his oldest stuff, and are
quite good "military" fantasy; Green is one of the best current
authors at depicting large scale mideval battles.

Expected Soonest: Katherine Kerr's "Darkspell".  Forthcoming Books
states that this book will be available Sept 87.  This means, of
course, anywhere from July to December to never.  Does anyone know
the shipping date?

Kerr's "Daggerspell" was the best book by a new author in 1986.  I
have never seen a fantasy author depict a medieval society as well
as this.  As an example, her battle scenes are extraordinary -- no
other fantasy that I can think of demonstrates the incompetence of
medieval tactics as well as this, without introducing some military
genius to take advantage of them.  She does equally well at showing
the status of women, the meaning of honor, the mechanics of justice,
And a multitude of other things, and does it so well that the reader
does not even notice that this is being done.  (The book is totally
devoid of "expository lumps".)  And all this does not begin to
describe the other strengths of the book: characterization, plot,
the use of magic, etc., etc.  Unfortunately, this book is currently
only in hardcover; however, if you can afford it, or if you can
convince your library to by it, go read this book.

What Happened To: The third book in Diane Duane's wizardry series?
Someone posted a plot summary a long time ago, but I have seen no
indications that the book is being published anywhere.

Diane Duanes Wizardry books, "So you want to be a Wizard", and "Deep
Wizardry", were marketed as children's books.  However, the themes
and style are quite similar to those in her "Door" books.  If you
like the one, you will like the other.

Being dead hasn't stopped writers yet: When Frank Herbert died,
people said that there was another Dune manuscript, that his son
would complete.  Is this true?

I assume that people know about the Dune books.

Most unexpected sequel: What is the schedule for the fourth book in
Cherry(h)'s Morgainne trilogy?  (I said it was unexpected.  I
thought only writers whose name started with "A" couldn't count.)

*SPOILER WARNING*
The Morgainne trilogy was Cherryh's first work, and, until she wrote
Chanur's Homecoming, her best.  In one sense writing a sequel is
easy, because these books describe the efforts of Morgainne (the
coincidence in name with the Arthurian vilianness is entire
deliberate) to close the "gates" between worlds, and there is one
book per world.  However, in the trilogy, Morgainne is also dealing
with the legend of herself -- many, many years before, an attempt by
her to close one gate ended in disaster, and the legends that have
sprung up about her do not make things any easier.  However, by the
end of the third book, she has outrun this effect, and also her
traveling companion (from whose point of view the story is told),
has come to terms with himself and her, so it is not easy to see how
Cherry will write a fourth book.  However, I can unreservably
recommend the trilogy

How long: Has David Brin even begun writing the sequel to "The
Uplift War" yet?  Does he have a contract for it?  (Not counting the
option clause in the Uplift War contract.)  Is there even a
tentative schedule?

"Startide Rising" and "The Uplift War" are the supreme example of
space opera.  I rank Startide Rising as the second best SF work I
know (behind Lord of Light).

Waiting for the doctor: How is P. C Hodgell doing on her thesis?
When will she begin (or finish) the third book about the Jame?

No review for these books -- they were both very good fantasy, but I
have temporarily run out words.

If people want more questions like this, I have a lots of them.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 04:00:38 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Sequels

>Expected Soonest: Katherine Kerr's "Darkspell".  Forthcoming Books
>states that this book will be available Sept 87.  This means, of
>course, anywhere from July to December to never.  Does anyone know
>the shipping date?

Expect it in shelves in late August, maybe the first week of
September, since it is coming from Doubleday. Kerr will be signing
it at Future Fantasy in Palo Alto in September sometime, but I don't
have a date yet.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 23:26:28 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Sequels

cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman) writes:

>This is a request for information about when the sequels to certain
>books will be published.  I originally intended to ask about a

Let me add a few:

Gordon R. Dickson: CHANTRY GUILD (I *think* this is next; if not,
try CHILDE)

Diane Duane: the next "Door" book

Sequels seem to be the way of life around SF publishers and authors
(either may instigate one) these days.  I'd almost rather see Brin
show off more of his imagination in a new book than continue the
STARTIDE RISING series. Oh, well...

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 87 23:51:09 EDT
From: Antonio Leal <abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Character/Author interaction (Cabell, Chandler)

The 'fun and games' where authors erupt into their characters'
universe has been going on for quite some time. I was made aware of
this by my digging up of James Branch Cabell books out of the CMU
library, and my accidental purchase of A. Bertram Chandler's "The
Commodore at Sea" (an old [1979] ACE paperback; this story is
bundled with "Spartan Planet", which is altogether another can of
worms). Incidentally, my thanks to the people who mentioned these
authors in sflovers.

For those curious, in Cabell's "Jurgen" (dated 1920), the main
character meets the author in the guise of 'Kochei', a supernatural
being in charge of reality in general, sitting one step above
human-thought gods in general, and suffering from a sense of
weariness. Some other Cabell books, especially those in the
Poictesme cycle, like "Jurgen", also present hints but this is the
most overt one. Incidentally, as someone pointed out some months
ago, Heinlein's "Job" is very clearly modelled on "Jurgen",
including the visit to a customized Heaven. Another aside: Cabell's
books poke fun at very many sacred cows in a more subtle and
literate way than I can possibly summarize; I'd like to see them
issued in paperback, so I could buy them ...

Chandler's fiction is more pedestrian, but that doesn't keep him
from having his Commodore Grimes hauled into a hall of fading
characters, where he must beg for the continuation of his
adventures, lest he become a ghost.  Later in the book, he also
subjects Grimes to some universe switching, to a tatty reality
starkly contrasting with his normally rich life.

Finally, how old and firm is our model of 'fictional reality' ? I
seem to remember a few classics that didn't have any problems
summoning up a character to serve as a foil for their discourse
(e.g. Erasmus' "Elogy of Folly"). Anyone with better memory and
education ?

Tony
abl@ohm.ece.cmu.edu
Electrical & Computer Eng. Dept
Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 87 03:15:36 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Character/Author interaction (Cabell, Chandler)

  Actually, Cabell appears in the "Biography of the Life of Manuel"
as the enigmatic Horvendile, who blithely orders the characters
around without explanation. How does he get away with it? In FIGURES
OF EARTH, he tells Manuel that everyone thinks him insane, because
HE has the idea that this world and its inhabitants are things he
has invented. And in THE CREAM OF THE JEST, there is a
novel-within-the- novel where Horvendile, after shocking and
inexplicable treachery and manipulation, informs the victims that he
did it because they are characters in a novel he is writing-- and
then reverts to Cabell's alter-ego, Felix Kennaston.
    This was repeated in a different fashion in the trilogy "The
Nightmare has Triplets" (SMIRT-SMITH-SMIRE), which is a more-or-less
continuous narrative of a dream Cabell is supposedly having. (In
volume 1, he is annoyed when everyone calls him "Smirt" because he
is positive that is NOT his name-- although he can not remember what
it really is.)

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 87 12:49 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Star Trek Novels
Cc: li.bOhReR@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU

I love Bill's Spot the Author game with the ST novels.  It's so
true!  (for those not familiar with the genre, these alter-egos are
called Mary Sues and are characteristic of ST FAN fiction) Also
interesting is the general lack of "Plucky young lads" Note that
even MALE ST authors seem to write Mary Sue.  Note, for example,
Howard Weinstein's novels.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 17:47:18 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Jirel of Joiry query

I've come across a reference to "Joiry" in a book.  Didn't C. L.
Moore do a series of stories about "Jirel of Joiry"?  Can anyone
give me more info, such as how many Joiry stories there are, and
where they can be found?  Thanks.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 05:14:23 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Jirel of Joiry query

>I've come across a reference to "Joiry" in a book.  Didn't C. L.
>Moore do a series of stories about "Jirel of Joiry"?  Can anyone
>give me more info, such as how many Joiry stories there are, and
>where they can be found?

   While I am not Jerry, here is where I know you can find Jirel
stories:

   Shambleau and Others
   Northwest of Earth
   Jirel of Joiry
   The Best of C.L. Moore

I make no guarantees that this is exhaustive, nor do I really feel
like digging these up to get the table of contents (I know, I am
lazy).

Joe Kalash
{ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #362
Date:  3 Sep 87 0845-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #362
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 87 0845-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #362
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 362

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Star Cops (3 msgs) &
                              Doctor Who (2 msgs) &
                              Max Headroom  (2 msgs) & 
                              Dynaman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 18:25:47 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Star Cops

Has anyone in England taped Star Cops?  I'm interested in
communicating with them.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 87 13:25:32 GMT
From: dro@oasis.icl.stc.co.uk (David Owen)
Subject: Re: Star Cops

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
>made by the BBD drama dept. and is aimed at a more adult audience
>than the other BBC SF series.  (Dr Who is made by the children's
>programmes dept, and Blake's seven and Star Trek are regarded by
>the BBC as programmes aimed at the 8-16 agegroup.)

Actually, Doctor Who IS a production of the drama department at the
BBC, and is regarded as a family show rather than being just for
kids or adults. It's only the show's rather early time-slot that has
left it branded as being just for kids. Amazingly, when screened in
Australia, several episodes were banned or cut to make them suitable
for showing, and Blake's Seven is shown with "Parental Guidance
Recommended" !!!

>It will be a brave TV station which buys the series for showing in
>the US. The US space effort has only appeared in one episode. It is
>shown as a mainly military operation, anthough there are a few
>American based multinational companies active in space.  A quote
>from the second episode- "Any attempt to approach <an unmanned
>civilian space station> will be regarded as an act of war <against
>the US>"

After episode four which showed militaristic jingo-ism and
corruption within the American space program, I should think a sale
to the states would be a minor miracle for BBC Enterprises !

Dave Owen
ICL, Bracknell, England
dro@oasis.icl.stc.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 17:54:47 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Star Cops: The list.

                             STAR COPS

The TV series ended last night so, as promised, here is the program
list for Star Cops.

I have divided it into three sections.

A. a list of episode titles and authors.
B. more details about each episode, but no more than you
   would find in a programme guide. I have added my own
   rating for each episode using a 5 star system.
C. Other notes on the series. Contains some minor spoilers.

A. The episode titles.

1. An instinct for murder. by Cris Boucher.
2. Conversations with the dead. by Cris Boucher.
3. Intelligent listening for beginners. by Cris Boucher.
4. Trivial games and paranoid persuits. by Cris Boucher.
5. This case to be opened in a million years. by Philip Martin.
6. In warm blood. by John Collee.
7. A double life. by John Collee.
8. Other people's secrets. by John Collee.
9. Little green men and other martians. by Chris Boucher.

B. More on each episode.

Star Cops

1. An instinct for murder. ****
Appointment of new Commander of Space Cops.  set on Earth and
European space station.  Introduces Spring + Theroux + Box

2. Conversations with the dead. ****
Deals with malfunctioning of cargo vessel en route to Martian
colony.  Set on Earth and in new Space Cops HQ in Moonbase.  Devis
joins team.

3. Intelligent listening for beginners. ***+
Deals with computer malfunctions.  Set on Moonbase, lunar research
post, and earth/moon shuttle.  Kenzy joins team.

4. Trivial games and paranoid persuits. *****
Disappearance from US space station.  Set on Moonbase and US space
station.

5. This case to be opened in a million years. ****
Shuttle carrying nuclear waste crashes on takeoff.  Set on Moonbase.

6. In warm blood. 0
Deep space exploration vessel Pluto 5 returns with all crew dead.
Set on Moonbase and Pluto 5.  Anna joins team.  (This episode is by
far the worst of the series.)

7. A double life. **
Embryos disappear from medical research lab on Moonbase.  The mother
is not pleased and organises her own searchers.  Set on Moonbase.

8. Other people's secrets. ***
There are a lot of malfunctions with equipment on Moonbase, and a
psychiatrist arrives to do research on living on the moon.  Set on
Moonbase.

9. Little green men and other martians. ****
Something has been found on mars and is on the way to Moonbase.  Set
on Mars and Moonbase.

3. More information.

Regular cast

David Calder as Commander Nathan Spring.
   British. Head of Star Cops. Professional policeman.
Erick Ray Evans as Chief Supt. David Theroux
   American. 2nd in command. Ex NASA astronaut who "defected" to ESA
Trevor Cooper as Colin Devis
   British. Ordinary detective. Slow but reliable.
Linda Newton as Pal Kenzy
   Australian. Ordinary detective. Hot tempered and given to impulses.
Johnathan Adams as Alexander Krivenko.
   Russian. Moonbase commander. Often has problems with his superiors.
Sayo Inaba as Anna Shoun
   Japanese. Ordinary detective. Ex biologist.

Main space stations (5)

European: Charles DeGaulle
Russian:
Allied Pacific Consortium: Coral Sea
American: Ronald Regan
Japanese:

Lunar base: Moonbase
Mars colony

The creator of the series said that he started out to create a
realistic SF television series. In this he has been mostly
successful. With the exception of one episode, this is by far the
most realistic series anyone has created.

The ONLY criticism I have heard of the series is that it isn't the
way science-fiction is supposed to be. There are no big space
battles, no faster than light drives, no alien cultures. Too much
talk and no action.

This is exactly the reason why I liked this series so much.  Good
science fiction is rare. A good science fiction TV series is almost
unheard of. It is much easier to hide bad scriptwriting and
scientific ignorance with special effects and pyrotechnic displays,
than to get things correct to start with. This series, with the
exception of one real turkey of an episode, manages to get it right.

The really bad episode depends on humans beings being some kind of
thermally superconducting reptiles.

The best episodes are very convincing in the detail that they show
life in near earth space and on the moon in 2027.  Even the
Earth/Moon shuttle, which seems to make the trip in about eight
hours, is just about convincing.  I did find the instantaneous
Earth/Moon video telephone a little irritating.

The strangest part of watching the series is the European/British
point of view the stories are told from.  Most if not all previous
films featuring astronauts and life in space in this time period,
have been told from the American point of view. It is this unusual
perspective which makes this series unlikely to be shown in the USA
except as a special event at SF conferences, which would be a shame.

The US national space presence is shown as a very military
jingoistic one. It is a point of national pride to have the largest
space station, with artificial gravity, and a pool table.  Just
don't beat the station commander at his own game.

Any American who doesn't agree with this point of view is regarded
as a traitor. This is a problem for Theroux.

The rest of the assembled cast are exactly the sort of people you
would expect to find. Mostly fairly ordinary people doing their
jobs, trying not to make a mistake and get killed, and trying to
lead as normal a life as possible under the circumstances. Crimes
are bound to be commited, and it is the job of the Star Cops to
attempt to bring some law and order.

As I said before, this is the best science fiction series ever made
by the BBC, and yes I am including Dr. Who and Blake's seven.  For
this reason I think it unlikely to ever be shown again.  Remember
what happened to the first series of Blake's seven.

Scheduling it opposite "SPACE" on ITV was a mistake. BBC2 is more a
minority interests channel, a lot of people must have been watching
ITV expecting to see science fiction instead of soap opera.

SPACE attracted 7.5 Million viewers per episode on average.  it
stayed in the ratings at about number 80.  STAR COPS got 1.7
million.

I should be more optimistic. With the exception mentioned above
everyone has liked the programme. Perhaps this type of reaction will
persuade the BBC to make annother series.

If I hear any further news I will post details.

Bob

P.S.  (Does anyone have the first four episodes on tape? By the time
I realised the series would probably never be re-shown I was too
late to tape them.)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 13:41:05 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Star Cops  (Now production of DW)

jean@hrcca.UUCP (Jean Airey) writes:
>bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
>> (Dr Who is made by the children's programmes dept, and Blake's
>> seven and Star Trek are regarded by the BBC as programmes aimed
>> at the 8-16 agegroup.)
>"Doctor Who" is also produced by the BBC Drama series department --
>at least the Producer said so *very* emphatically ....

Dr Who was made by the children's programmes dept.  It was the large
proportion of the children's dept budget that it took to make this
show which lead to the threatened cancellation of the series. The
third series of "Tripods" was scrapped to get the money to make the
last Dr Who series.

It is possible that the series currently being filmed has been
transferred to the drama dept there has been a few changes recently
in the Dr Who team, including yet annother doctor.

>....  It is considered *family* entertainment."  Have

The BBC consider Family entertainment as being aimed at the agegroup
8-16. There are often complaints about how unsuitable some Dr Who
episodes were for "family viewing".

Complaints about an episode of Star Trek led to three episodes being
banned here in the early '70s. Those episodes have still never been
shown by the BBC. This was because Star Trek is classed by them as a
"family" show and the content of the show was unsuitable for
children. They recently said that they saw no reason to change this
policy.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 13:03:20 GMT
From: dro@oasis.icl.stc.co.uk (David Owen)
Subject: Re: Star Cops  (Now production of DW)

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes:
>Dr Who was made by the children's programmes dept.  It was the
>large proportion of the children's dept budget that it took to make
>this show which lead to the threatened cancellation of the series.
>The third series of "Tripods" was scrapped to get the money to make
>the last Dr Who series.

Dr Who has NEVER since 1963 been made by the children's programmes
department. It is currently the responsibility of Series and Serials
at the BBC. I believe Tripods was not concluded as a result of poor
ratings in the Saturday tea-time slot, which has been consistently
unsuccessful for the BBC over the past five years.  Doctor Who
resumes as of Monday 7th September on BBC1 at 7:35, immediately
after Wogan, with episode one of "Time and the Rani", featuring a
new Doctor, new titles, and new music.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 06:43:01 GMT
From: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Max Headroom

Well, Max is back, but it seems that they're going to go through the
original episodes first.  Does anyone know how many new episodes
have been/will be made?

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!sdamos,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 87 01:37:50 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!murlynd@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>Well, Max is back, but it seems that they're going to go through
>the original episodes first.  Does anyone know how many new
>episodes have been/will be made?

According to something I read a few months back, the ratings for Max
Headroom on ABC turned out poorer than expected, but the network had
purchased 13 new episodes for the next season, anyway.  They seem to
have faith that M-M-M-Max will pull in more viewers, given enough
time.  Sort of the same position Network 23 has taken.  Scary
thought, ABC paralleling its own show like that.  Next thing you
know, we'll have Blipverts and such annihilating inactive viewers.

Jack Morris
Old Dominion University
Department of Computer Science
Norfolk, Virginia  23529-0162
UUCP:  murlynd@xanth.UUCP
       ...!seismo!xanth!murlynd
CSNET:  murlynd@odu.edu
old ARPA:  murlynd%odu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 87 17:11:19 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Dynaman -new Japan SF TV show

Last Friday night (7/31) we stumbled upon a new tv show that is
broadcast on Channel 50 (WPWR) in Chicago.  I believe it's on from
10:30 -11:30, but you should check the listings to find out for
sure.  We started watching around 11:00.  The show is called
"Dynaman" and at first it seemed like just an ordinary Japanese
clone of the "Spectreman" type of shows.  You know, made in Japan,
with special effects on par with Godzilla movies, etc.  However,
when we started trying to follow the story we realized the dialog
was a continous run-on of one-liner bad jokes, stupid responses,
etc.  Kind of like a three-stoges meets Godzilla meets Voltron kind
of thing.

You know how you can sometimes watch these Japanese shows and after
the editing, overdubbing, etc. they turn out to be hilarious?  Well,
it seems to me that this show consists of episodes of some
science-fiction super-hero Japanese show that some American
producers got a hold of and just dubbed in stupid things !!!  Has
anyone else seen this show, and is it being shown on any other tv
stations in the country?

The special effects are not that bad, if you're into Godzilla movies
and maybe some old sf movies.  This is not cartoon animation like
Voltron, etc, but real models/toys used in the scenes.  Towards the
end of the show, all of the vehicles assembled into a large robot
that fought a monster -just like Voltron, but using ***real**
models, not cartoon animation.  It was pretty slick at some points.

However, with all this great video stuff happening, the soundtrack
of the show included songs by Bruce Springsteen, Huey Louis, John
Cougar, etc.

And the jokes?  Well, you have to really "be there" to get the full
impact, but, for instance, I can remember a few of the scenes:

Just as our team of fearless heroes goes to battle against the
evildoers, their leader says "Wait, I forgot to tell you something"
One of the team says, "What's that, your age?"  The leader says...
"No, .. (and he goes on to tell them about the evildoers they will
encounter).

(I remember the above dialog occurred at least twice at separate
times).

One of the hero types is laying flat on a rocket-sled type machine,
knocking over the evildoers accompanied by the sound of bowling
balls hitting pins!!!

Some kids playing with a robot, the robot accidently hits one of the
kids, the kid complains, and the mother says "The robot is just
trying to teach us that we should practice safe comedy!"  Then the
robot runs out the door with the kids!!!

Like I said, you have to watch this show with the mind-set that you
are watching a Three-stooges flick !!!!

At the end of this show, there was an older guy sitting at a sushi
bar and he commented that he hoped we enjoyed the show, and he is
hoping to bring more of this type of "high quality entertainment" to
American TV stations.  He said that just like the Japanese have
taken over America with their microwaves, stereos, automobiles,
etc., he also wants to infiltrate American TV with Japanese shows
!!!  Just then, the guy working behind the sushi bar shows the older
guy what the excellent Japanese cuisine is that he has prepared for
him, and the older guy (I guess he's supposed to be the producer of
the show) attempts to poke at what's on the plate with chopsticks.
What's on the plate? A cheeseburger with french fries !!!!

Catch this show if you can, its really strange! Its on Channel 50
Friday nites (WPWR Chicago) and its called "Dynaman".

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #363
Date:  3 Sep 87 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #363
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 87 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #363
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 363

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Jul 87 03:43:26 GMT
From: gds@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Tolkien/racism (long)

Better parallels of Tolkien to Christianity (in my opinion) are the
story of the creation of Ea, particularly the Music of the Ainur,
which is analogous to God's creation of the universe, after which
the angels sang praises (paraphrased).

Also there is the fall of Melkor, similar to the fall of Lucifer.

greg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 23:37:02 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!ncc!ers!neil@RUTGERS.EDU (neil)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

obnoxio@BRAHMS.BERKELEY.EDU writes:
>>cmaag@csd4 (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>>>[Are Tolkien's hobbit names from "real people", eg, WV phone book?]
> informed him of something he (or the rest of us?) didn't know.
> Now on to the real question: just where did those great hobbit
> names like "Baggins", "Took", "Gamgee", "Sackville", "Proudfoot"
> etc come from?

Probably the Oxford phone book, though as he lived in Oxford, his
friends and acquaintances would be more than sufficient inspiration.
Oxford as you know was/is(?) where many of the races of the empire
sent their sons. Those that could afford it of course.....

> Considering that until late in this century most of West Virginia
> was highly isolated physically--and hence linguistically
> well-preserved from colonial days--I don't think it's obvious in
> the least that the

Heck, the same can be said for several parts of the British Isles!

> story is false.  It would have been an ideal place to grab names
> that sounded quaint, shirish, and mutually consistent.  Had the
> story been about Massachusetts, say, I would have automatically
> gone along with the "obvious" rejections.  But West Virginia?
> That gives the story a sophisticated touch.

Of course it's obvious its false.  Only if you have a blinkered
american perspective could you think that it might have a measure of
truth..  Ever read Dickens? Now there are some Names. If he could
come up with something like Chuzzlewite without the aid of a foreign
phone book, was Tolkien's task that difficult.

Of course, there is a faint possibility that that's where he got his
names from, assuming there were such things as telephones in the
appropriate area of WV and phone books to go with them, since
anything is possible, but let's be realistic and give Tolkien a
little credit for having a sparkling imagination.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 21:10:53 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>Someone please correct me if they have information to the contrary,
>but in a class I once had on Tolkein/C.S. Lewis, my professor said
>that he had read that Tolkein got all of the hobbit names from real
>people.  Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina
>telephone book.  Can anyone confirm this rumor?

I can't comment on this specific point, but I do know that the
Dwarvish names are taken directly from northern European mythology.
(Sorry, I don't remember specifically where.)

Did he make up the Elvish names, or are they taken from somewhere,
too?

Frank Adams
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 05:17:35 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>a class I once had on Tolkein/C.S. Lewis, my professor said that he
>had read that Tolkein got all of the hobbit names from real people.
>Specifically, he had taken them from a West Virgina telephone book.
>Can anyone confirm this rumor?

It seems unlikely, as he was surprised to get a letter from a real
Sam Gamgeee.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 14:44:26 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

neil@ers (neil) writes:
>>[about WV and hobbit names]
>Of course it's obvious its false.  Only if you have a blinkered
>american perspective

Well excuse me for being so bloody foresighted about my choice of
parents!

>could you think that it might have a measure of truth..

I certainly don't think the story is true!  I was just annoyed with
the several postings that took what I felt was a "West Virginia, uh
huck, what a hick backwater dweeb state, hahaha," attitude (and then
proceeded to uninformatively inform about the *dwarvish* names), my
point being that WV, precisely *because* of its hick backwater
dweebness actually gave the story some "sophistication", as I had
said.  That one bit surprised me to no end.

(It's like the "Weekly World News" story about a head transplant in
East Germany: it beats me what to make of it, but I noticed they got
the little detail about the patient being paralyzed right.)

>Ever read Dickens? Now there are some Names. If he could come up
>with something like Chuzzlewite without the aid of a foreign phone
>book, was Tolkien's task that difficult.

Of course!  But remember that Dickens' name-choosing skill is of an
entirely different flavor then Tolkien's.  Dickens' names
effortlessly and covertly help nail a person's character down for
you ("Gradgrind") without seeming the least bit phony, whereas
Tolkien's names sound like they are the genu- ine ordinary names
that belong to each subcommunity.  There's no way the former could
be worked out be flipping through the WV phone book.

>Of course, there is a faint possibility that that's where he got
>his names from, assuming there were such things as telephones in
>the appropriate area of WV and phone books to go with them,

Yes, that is probably where the story falls flat on its face.  I
won't say so conclusively, since even were the story genuine, words
for ordinary objects change in meaning over the decades and the
pond, and I don't like making "obvious" conclusions based on second
hand accounts anyway.  Did the poster's professor actually say and
knowingly mean "phone book", as in "the white pages"?  Beats me.
(Thus, there have been examples posted to this group of how the
"pocket calculators" in many 50s stories were not a gifted prescient
reference to HPs but just a mundane reference to something that was
*called* a pocket calculator in those days.  Since my knowledge of
the history of telephones is mostly limited to "Watson, come here"
and the AT&T divestiture, you've got me as to whether or not the
phrase "phone book" had a different, if any, reference back then.)

>since anything is possible, but let's be realistic

I just suspect on general principles that if true something like
this WV story would have surfaced years ago.  *Internally*, I see
nothing out of the way, nothing "obviously" false about it.  This
may, even assuming that the story was quoted accurately, be solely
due to my ignorance about what the phrase "phone book" has meant
throughout this century, or something equally obscure.

Now, had someone told us that *Dickens* had gotten his names from a
WV phone book, you'd see my little pink tail do handstands
doubleplusquick!

>and give Tolkien a little credit for having a sparkling
>imagination.

Well of course, that's where I had *always* assumed his names came
from!  Then I read Lin Carter's book and learned about the "Elder
Edda", and was doubly astonished.  It has never occurred to me
before that Tolkien might have gotten the hobbit names from
somewhere--now I'm curious.

Furthermore, I consider Tolkien's ability to take existing
linguistic constructs and weave them into his fiction just as
worthy of encomia as any other feature of Tolkien's art.  Your
average scholarly linguist would have failed miserably; his efforts
would stand out.  Like a sore thumb.

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 14:31:35 GMT
From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM(Mike King) writes:
>Your professor was obviously reading a humor magazine. :-) As for
>the West Virginia angle, I did hear that there was a clan of
>Tallfellows living outside of Wheeling, so they may have been in
>the Phone book. :-) In reality, Tolkien got all his names out of
>The Elder Edda, which is a collection of Scandinavian myths (if I
>remember correctly).

Okay, I decided to check this thing out myself.  First let me
mention that the names I was referring to were the surnames of the
hobbits only!  What I did was to look up many of the names that were
mentioned in the section of the book about Bilbo's birthday party.
There are about 10 names listed.  I then looked around for a phone
book for W. Virgina, but I couldn't find one in our library, so I
had to use a book for "Northern Virgina".  Anyway, I did find many
of the hobbit names listed, including Proudfoot, Bolger, Chubb, and
Brockhouse.  Obviously, this doesn't prove anything significant, but
I thought I would mention it.

Christopher Maag
{seismo|nike|ucbvax|harvard|rutgers!ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!cmaag

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 18:03:44 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

Hello Gang.  I have no idea where Tolkien's elves got their names. I
do, however, know that phone books are easy to come by.  I have
nearly three shelves of them.  Some of them are foreign. None are
from West Virginia.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 87 08:04 EST
From: C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Hillbilly Hobbits (was Tolkien discussion)

I passed on the messages about Tolkien naming sources to a freind
with whom I grew up with.  He still lives in West Virginia and made
the following comment:

From:     <SMITH@MUVMS1>   (Marshall University,Huntington, WV)

You're right I did get a kick out of the West Virginia stuff.  Now
let me give you some food for thought, (or just to pass along for
the controversy): West Virginia contains:
   A brandywine river,
   A village called shire
   A small unincorporated town called bree

I personally know a family of Baggins, and Toks (could be a
derivative of Took).

So, although I don't think Tolkien used West Virginia for his hobbit
sources, I think if you wanted to, you could make a good argument
for it.  You've lived here- you know the naming conventions.
Samwise, Hamfast, Bilbo, Frodo, Peregrine and Meriadoc are all
SIMILIAR to some common West Virginian names.  I think you should
take this info and jump in with both feet and stir up some
controversy.  I'll dig up other similiarities and pass them along if
you want.

Phil Smith

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 05:58:17 GMT
From: obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

cmaag@csd4 (Christopher N Maag) writes:
>I then looked around for a phone book for W. Virgina, but I
>couldn't find one in our library, so I had to use a book for
>"Northern Virgina".  Anyway, I did find many of the hobbit names
>listed, including Proudfoot, Bolger, Chubb, and Brockhouse.
>Obviously, this doesn't prove anything significant, but I thought I
>would mention it.

You're right: it doesn't prove anything significant.  Most of the
hobbit names are in the San Francisco phone book, including one
"Frodo Baggins".  The only other SF "Baggins" is listed under
his/her first initial: "B".

Matthew P Wiener
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!brahms!weemba

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 06:49:57 GMT
From: nw@amdahl.amdahl.com (Neal Weidenhofer)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

gds@sri-spam.istc.sri.com (Greg Skinner) writes:
> Better parallels of Tolkien to Christianity (in my opinion) are
> the story of the creation of Ea, particularly the Music of the
> Ainur, which is analogous to God's creation of the universe, after
> which the angels sang praises (paraphrased).

But so much more beautiful.  Just think about the allegory--the
music IS the universe.

Regards,
Neal Weidenhofer
...{hplabs|ihnp4|seismo|decwrl}!amdahl!nw
Amdahl Corporation
1250 E. Arques Ave. (M/S 316)
Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3470
(408)737-5007

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jul 87 16:49:45 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

I've always thought the Hobbit names sounded a bit Cornish myself or
maybe Welsh.  If those names can be found in West Virginia they
certainly can be found in the British Isles.  I know that most of
the names that Tolkien came up with were not made up, but borrowed
from somewhere (he freely confessed it).  The names from the hobbit
(including Bilbo and Gandalf) came from some obsure Scandinavian
manuscript and were names of dwarvish travellers (or something).

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 14:01:26 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

For heaven's sake, give Tolkien credit for more imagination than
that!  Do you really think the man who invented this incredible
mythology would have to have a phone book to think of hobbit names!
How absurd!  Your professor is an idiot!  You certainly don't have
to look in a phone book from West Virginia, or Virginia to find
hobbit names.  Many are just pure old simple English names that are
found everywhere there are Englishmen or their descendants.  Tolkien
used names from locations (Underhill), and plant-sounding names
(Ferny) as well as other means of inventing his names.  Why should
anyone be surprised to find such names are real English names?  He
was a philologist, after all.  Yes, there are even hobbits named
Banks in Bree.

Gordon Banks

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 18:15:14 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Enough is Enough (was: Tolkien's Diction)

West Virginia, my foot.

Fortunately for us all, my former roommate, David Bratman, is one of
the world's leading authorities on Tolkien (well, a secondary
authority, anyway).  I approached him with this rather ridiculous
business about West Virginia phone books, and he prepared the
following statement:

I haven't read any of this personally, but Dan'l Danehy-Oakes tells
me that a lot of people have been speculating that Tolkien got his
hobbits' surnames out of a West Virginia telephone book.  The
implausibility of the idea is self-evident, but I wonder how the
rumor got started, as nothing of the sort is said in any of the
standard sources.  Perhaps someone who'd had a bit much of proper
1420 read more than was intended into this paragraph from Daniel
Grotta-Kurska's biography of Tolkien:
   That hobbits have hairy feet and wear no shoes can be traced to
   Tolkien's American friend at Exeter College, Allan Barnett.
   Barnett was from Kentucky and Tolkien loved to hear his stories
   about country boys and their down-home names, contempt for shoes,
   and insatiable urge to steal tobacco out of curing casks.  [p.
   101, first edition]

"Down-home names": thus the suggestion that the hobbit-names are
Appalachian (and everyone knows that the mountaineers are supposed
to have preserved many old English speech-patterns and other customs
that have died out elsewhere), and here, perhaps, a literary urban
legend is born.

I wouldn't place much significance to this quotation anyway: I
suspect it's just Barnett speculating.  Barnett and Tolkien
corresponded all their lives, but there's lots about Tolkien that
Barnett never knew.  Grotta-Kurska actually identified Barnett as
Tolkien's one close friend to survive World War I (p.  42, first
edition); apparently neither Barnett nor G-K had ever heard of
Christopher Wiseman, whose name was hastily substituted in the
second edition, which includes lots of other stuff cribbed from
Humphrey Carpenter's infinitely superior book.

David Bratman

Now, I *do* hope we've heard enough of that subject.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #364
Date:  3 Sep 87 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #364
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 87 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #364
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 364

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Alien Life (2 msgs) &
                               History of Science Fiction (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 87 13:45:00 GMT
From: webb.applicon!webb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Alien Life (a question of reaction)

From: William Daul <WBD.MDC@OFFICE-1.ARPA>
>What would the effect of having proof that there is intelligent
>life somewhere off-earth?  What do you think would happen to
>US/USSR defense departments?  Do you think there would be a change
>in the way countries relate to each other?

There can be only one answer to this question: that depends.  I will
address three possibilities: aliens who are too distant to ever
reach Earth; aliens who have the capability and desire to come to
Earth, but have not done so yet; and aliens that have landed
somewhere on this fair planet.

Aliens that are too distant to ever reach us would have a minimal
effect upon our society.  We would know of these beings only by some
form of transmitted communication, or some evidence they had created
of their existence.  There would certainly be small changes:
undoubtedly a religious group would spring up to worship them as our
creators, said group made up of those who believe the writings of
Erik Von Daniken (Chariots of the Gods, etc); some members of
organized religions would speak out against them as devils, some
would say they are damned while others would claim that a savior
must have visited them too; a group of scientists would begin
studying them; and at first there would be a great hue and outcry
about our brothers and sisters beyond the sky, but after a while,
life would go back to normal.  As for the defense departments of the
superpowers, they would be interested in the content of the
transmission (if any), and might classify it until they could be
persuaded that 1) if we can receive it, the Russians can too, 2) no
new weapons technology can be derived from the message.  They would
probably form their own investigative groups and keep whatever
results they achieved quite secret.  The aliens would join the
continuous background of ongoing news events that bombard us every
day, and while some would follow each development closely, others
would devote as much time to this story as they give to the
Iran-Contra scandal.

If the aliens were actually able to come to Earth, I think the
reaction of our planet would be greater in degree than if we knew of
they could not reach us, but not different in kind.  Some generals
on both sides might get worried, and begin planning ways to repulse
an invasion, or shoot down an emissary, but that would not change
the way the US and the USSR related.  If they were close enough to
visit us, then in all likelihood, we would be able to communicate
with them, and exchange cultural information.  Such communication
would, no doubt, be monitored by the governments of the world, to
insure that no tactical or strategic information was released.  If a
visit was actually arranged, no doubt world opinion would force the
superpowers to present a united front, and behave themselves, but
each side would of course strive to present its own ideology as
superior.

An actual alien visitation has the potential to truly change our
world society.  If the aliens were believed to be hostile, the
superpowers might agree to cooperate in order to dispose of a common
threat.  On the other hand, if the aliens were thought to be
friendly, world opinion might just be able to force the US and the
USSR to set aside their differences and be nations of human beings
instead of competing war machines.  This kind of cooperation would
set a precedent for other joint ventures; it would not make a swift
change, but rather change the course of the foreign policies of the
two nations.  The polite-but-hostile tone of relations between the
US and the USSR has gained a lot of momentum over the years, and it
would take a great deal of pressure exerted over a moderate amount
of time to overcome that inertia.  A year or two might be long
enough for cooperation to come to seem the normal state of affairs;
a shorter period of time would leave its mark, but would not change
drastically the state of the world.

A fairly conservative view, I realize. I would like to be proven
wrong.

Peter Webb.
{allegra|decvax|harvard|yale|mit-eddie|mirror}!ima!applicon!webb
...!ulowell!applicon!webb
...!raybed2!applicon!webb

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 87 09:55:11 GMT
From: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Alien Life (a question of reaction)

DAUL@OFFICE-1.ARPA writes:
>what would the effect of having proof that there is intelligent
>life somewhere off-earth?  What do you think would happen to
>US/USSR defense departments?  Do you think there would be a change
>in the way countries relate to each other?

They would point their SDI weapons to to outer space. Remember the
experiment when a shuttle tried to point a laser at Hawaii, but
instead pointed it in the opposite direction? The "official"
explanation was a computer programming error,someone used the wrong
units. Maybe it wasn't an error :-)

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 87 21:05:18 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!rice!shell!academ!uhnix1!cosckla@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: History of Science Fiction

   From time to time, I try to examine the history of Science
fiction.  By no means do I claim to have all of the pieces of the
puzzle, or even that the pieces that I have are the right ones, or
even that the way that I am fitting the pieces together is correct.
However,I will give it a go hopeing that some of you will be
sufficiently intrigued/enraged to provide more information.
   Jules Verne is acknowledged as the father of Science Fiction.
This fact is acknowledged by all. He uses science as a tool for some
of his political polemics, as in the Begum's Fortune (whose original
cover featured Bismark without the moustache), and philosophy is in
The Golden Meteor and Hier et Demain. He had connections with Dumas,
and could be considered transitional between Romantic and Science
Fiction Literature.  He was always interested in having legitimate
technology being potentially able to provide whatever inventions he
needed in whatever he wrote. This point is carried to the extreme in
the otherwise romantic Carpathian Castle.  This is also where he
broke with HG Wells.(I really need to look at Edgar Rice Burroughs,
too).
   Apparently S-F must have floundered until the 30's when Huxley
wrote Brave New World. At this stage, SF appeared to be little more
than Anti-Utopian Political Technocratic Pronouncements. I have not
had a chance to examine Koestler's involvement, but an author of his
stature can never be ignored. He did some work to clarify the
conflict between Lamarkian and Darwinian evolution. Orwell went into
fantasy (anti-fantasy) with Animal Farm. 1984 was another of the
anti-utopian novels, probably borderline Science Fiction. Zane Grey
wrote western novels, it is true. Nevertheless, I have long
suspected that many of his novels, by changing words throughout,
I.E.  Horse=Rocketship, Rifle=Raygun, Rancher's Daughter= Martian
Princess, etc., were often used to generate pulp SF novels.
Coincidently, when the Westerns were dying out on TV in the 50's,
SF was gaining ground, though maybe not a coincidence.
   Which brings us to Isaac Asimov. I am not sure if I could be
totally happy with his literature. If Orwell were alive today , he
would lash at Asimov for regurgitating the popular ideas of the
times, and for using unnecessarily long words. Orwell, as we all
know, was paradoxically a Socialist who attacked the Communists.
Non-religious Orwell, (the same one who wrote the sacreligious
Clergyman's Daughter) would definitely be interested in attacking
anti-religious, or at least anti-Eastern Orthodox Asimov's Byzantine
Empire for his inappropriate failure to discard his 20th Century
Rationalistic biases in much the same manner that Orwell attacked
Arthur Miller's complacent-to-Nazis Tropic of Cancer (yes, that
"Dirty Book") in his Essay, Inside a Whale. In Asimov's defence, I
will say that he did well as a popularizer of Science (as in
Jupiter), and I understand that he has his own sci-fi magazine .

Thomas Jefferson Garfield Smith

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 10:28:10 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

>   Jules Verne is acknowledged as the father of Science Fiction.
>This fact is acknowledged by all.

Verne is as close to a father as SF is going to come, true, but I'm
still slightly uncomfortable with this for only one reason, that
being a rather gothic little novel written earlier by Mary Shelley,
i.e.  "Frankenstein."  Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'd like
to point out that I am talking about the book, which is really an
amazing piece of literature (complete with religious overtones,
realistic characters and such), and NOT the film, which is a really
amazing piece of pulp cinema (good for midnight movies during exam
week, and such).  Anyone who has not read this, I highly recommend
it.  The premise is recognizable -- man makes artificial man out of
dead parts and brings him to life only to have the artificial guy
wreak havok here and there -- but the story is not.  It is far more
touching (the monster isn't green for starters) and it ends much
more ambiguously, never really deciding who (between Victor and the
monster) was right or wrong.

Oh, question.  Has anyone read "The Fankenstein Papers" by Fred
Saberhagen?  I have read very little Saberhagen, but I am really
interested in how well he tells the original story from the
monster's perspective.  Any info would be appreciated.

jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 09:37:00 GMT
From: ames!kccs!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

I have never heard anyone claim that Jules Verne invented science
fiction.  That honor is usually accorded to Mary Wollstonecraft
Shelley (whose mother, Mary Wollstonecraft, invented feminism, and
died giving birth to her daughter), who wrote the first genuine
science fiction novel, "Frankenstein, or, Prometheus Unbound".  (Or
is it "Unchain'd"?  Anyway, I think you may have heard of the
book...)

You seem fairly well-informed concerning non-science-fiction, but
there are some huge gaps in your record of the history of SF.  I
recommend the encyclopedic "Trillion Year Spree" by Brian Aldiss as
a valuable guide to the history of science fiction.  Only a twit
agrees completely with any critical history, but Aldiss is right far
more often than he's wrong.  Fun reading and highly educational.

By the way, I think Asimov is a terrible writer of fiction.  Every
time he comments on writing in "his" magazine, I wince.  He says
things like "Who needs characterization?" and "I recommend keeping
revisions and drafts to a minimum".  Gack.  These flaws really show
in his work, too: see "Robot Dreams" for a recent example of a truly
dreadful story.  Naturally, the fans loved it.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 13:07:25 GMT
From: aad+@andrew.cmu.edu (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

The made-for-tv movie of n years ago "True Frankenstein" captured
part of this spirit.  I haven't read the book myself, so I can't say
how closely it followed.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 18:29:33 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>I have never heard anyone claim that Jules Verne invented science
>fiction.  That honor is usually accorded to Mary Wollstonecraft
>Shelley (whose mother, Mary Wollstonecraft, invented feminism, and
>died giving birth to her daughter), who wrote the first genuine
>science fiction novel, "Frankenstein, or, Prometheus Unbound".  (Or
>is it "Unchain'd"?  Anyway, I think you may have heard of the
>book...)

Maroney, get yer facts right before correcting people.

First of all, Aldiss is, as far as I know, the *first* critic to
suggest that FRANKENSTEIN was the "first" science fiction novel.
He's probably right, but the claim was made in the original edition
of TYS, BILLION YEAR SPREE: The True History of Science Fiction, in
the '70s.  Prior to Aldiss, and frequently enough since, claims have
been laid for Verne and Wells (separately or together); Hugo
Gernsback, who certainly was the inventor of "science fiction" as a
phenomenon apart from the rest of literature and bourgeois fiction;
and people *much* earlier than Shelley, such as Savinien Cyrano de
Bergerac, Lucian of Samosata, Joannes Kepler, Plato, Homer, and the
authors of the Bible.

Second, the subtitle of FRANKENSTEIN is "or, The New [in some
editions Modern] Prometheus."  "Prometheus Unbound" was a major poem
by her sometime husband, Percy Bysshe Shelley.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 16:01:46 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

>>   Jules Verne is acknowledged as the father of Science Fiction.
>>This fact is acknowledged by all.

No, it isn't.... I wouldn't overgeneralize if I were you...

For people interested in the history of SF, I'd like to recommend
Brian Aldiss' "The Trillion Year Spree" which is a (thick, heavily
footnoted and detailed) literary history of the genre.

There is a lot of information here, some of it tainted by Aldiss'
notions of how things ought to be, but you can read around that
pretty easily. It's strongest during the early years -- 1950 and
before.

>Verne is as close to a father as SF is going to come, true, but I'm
>still slightly uncomfortable with this for only one reason, that
>being a rather gothic little novel written earlier by Mary Shelley
>(sp?), i.e.  "Frankenstein."

And, just for reference, he chooses to use Frankenstein as the
starting point for Science Fiction, not Verne.  He admits it to be
somewhat controversial (there are actually contenders going back
into Classic Greece, for that matter) but he makes a strong argument
for it.

I might even make a case that Dante is a good starting point for SF,
but I'll stick to Frankenstein for now...

>such), and NOT the film, which is a really amazing piece of pulp
>cinema (good for midnight movies during exam week, and such).

The film is quite good.  It has nothing really to do with the book,
but what the hell.

>Anyone who has not read this, I highly recommend it.

I'll second this.  It is amazing the number of people I've run into
that haven't read much of the history of the field. If you haven't
read Frankenstein, or Stoker's Dracula, or Verne or Wells, you've
missed some really neat books.

>Oh, question.  Has anyone read "The Fankenstein Papers" by Fred
>Saberhagen?  I have read very little Saberhagen, but I am really
>interested in how well he tells the original story from the
>monster's perspective.  Any info would be appreciated.

It was very disappointing, especially after the way Saberhagen did
the same (quite successfully) for Dracula in The Dracula Tape.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #365
Date:  3 Sep 87 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #365
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 87 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #365
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 365

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Recommendations (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 13:44:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Recommendations

   Christopher D. Orr wanted some SF recommendations.  When I
started reading SF, I went to the library and got out the Hugo
Winners volumes and read through the short stories and took note of
the novel winners.  I then went through the novels.  That is as good
a place to start as any.  You can't go too far wrong if you start
reading award winning novels.  That way you can get introduced to a
whole bunch of authors and then try out more of their books if you
like what you see.  You could also try out books by the authors of
winners of the short stories.  Another place to look for books is
the Nebula Award books.  There I believe they not only list the
winners, but they also list the runners up for the year of the
volume.  I can't remember just which of the books I read from these
lists were really "action, fastmoving" books, but I know I did enjoy
them for the most part.  There is a decent variety of styles.
   One series of books which I enjoyed which had both short stories
and novels is Niven's Known Space books.  In his book, Tales of
Known Space, he has a whole timeline which lists the stories, in
what collections they appear, and when they appear on the timeline.
Also listed are the novels and where they appear.  I thought it was
nice to read them in the order listed on the timeline. I had read
Ringworld a a few years before reading them along the timeline.  It
made a lot more sense when reading it with the background of the
other books known to me.
   Enjoy!

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 07:01:01 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugjeffh@RUTGERS.EDU (Jeffrey Horvath)
Subject: random books

  I just got a sizeable gift certificate for my birthday to a local
bookstore.  I felt rather obligated to use it quickly since the
person who gave it to me kept saying, "Well, when are you going to
buy the books?!?"  Anyway, the point is, I didn't have any
particular books in mind when I went there and didn't all of
eternity to browse and decide which of the multitude of books to
get, so I did one of those "Oh sure, this one looks pretty
good...eh, the cover's cool" jobs.  Anybody got any idea if the
books I picked are any good?

   _The Mote in God's Eye_,        Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
   _Arc of the Dream_,             A. A. Attanasio
   _The Hitchhiker's Guide to
      the Galaxy_,                 Douglas Adams
   _A Darkness Upon the Ice_,      William R. Forstchen
   _Brain Wave_,                   Poul Anderson
   The first three books of the Dragon Lance Chronicles

Any comments?

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 87 17:42:07 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: fantasy recs

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
>> Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series
>> is a fantastic read...
>Does anybody know if this is the series containing _October's Baby_
>and the stuff about El Murid?  I keep looking for titles in this
>series and all I've ever been able to find is two.  One was
>_October's Baby_ and the other, which I've lost, is (I guess) the
>first of the El Murid books (the one that's about how El Murid got
>his start in televangelism).

October's Baby is the second book of the series. I'm bad at titles,
so I can't tell you the other titles, even the one that just came
out. I just remember them under their collective name. You can't
really read the books seperately, either... Guess that makes it a
'serial' rather than a 'series'.

I also remember a story in
>_Dragons of Darkness_ by Glen Cook, from this same world, after all
>the wars are over.

Never heard of this one! I'll have to go looking for it.

>> Sheri S. Tepper is an original writer - rather say
>> different...The middle trilogy is a bit of an interlude that
>> doesn't move the meta-plot along at all, and is generally
>> forgettable.

>I don't agree.  In _Flight_ you get some background on some
>characters (e.g.  Himaggery, Windlow, Mavin, Mertyn).  Second one
>(is that _Song_ or _Search_) has Beedie, who also comes in in the
>third trilogy, plus the stickies, which turn out to be pretty
>important, and also the first reference to the world's dying
>(although you don't know that's what it is until later).  Third one
>has the shadow-stuff.

I read the middle trilogy, about Maven and her brother, first. I
didn't know this was in any way related to any of her other books. I
was some confused by the characters - Demons, Sorcerors, etc. So,
looking at it as a standalone series, it was mildly interesting. It
explored more of the world, but it gave us a Mavin unlike the one in
the King's Blood series and the Jinian series. It also had a rather
mythic tone... It was a good trilogy, and it got me on a Sheri
Tepper binge for a while, when I read everything of hers I could
find.  And although she's a good writer, she's written better than
the Maven books.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 03:53:53 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Re: random books

ugjeffh@joey.UUCP (Jeffrey Horvath) writes:
>  I just got a sizeable gift certificate for my birthday to a local
>bookstore.  jobs.  Anybody got any idea if the books I picked are
>any good?
>   _The Mote in God's Eye_,    Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

My opinion on this book was: a slow start, a fascinating middle, but
a somewhat disappointing end. Its strongest point is that it gives a
very good view of how an alien mind might think.

>   _The Hitchhiker's Guide to
>      the Galaxy_,             Douglas Adams

This is a very funny book, to those who have a somewhat dry and
cynical sense of humor. In case you didn't know it is the first of a
4 book series; followups are: The Restaurant at the End of the
Universe (good humor, not quite as good as #1) Life, The Universe,
and Everything (just as good as original) So Long, and Thanks for
All the Fish (a complete waste of time) Note that those are only my
opinions in the ()'s; others may feel different.

I have not read any of the others listed.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 87 20:19:44 GMT
From: SCHAFER%RICE.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard A. Schafer)
Subject: Re: Fantasy recs

If you haven't picked up a copy of Guy Gavriel Kay's "Fionavar
Tapestry" trilogy (The Summer Tree, The Wandering Fire, and The
Darkest Road), drop everything and go get a copy.  This set has got
to be one of the best things I've ever seen, bar none.  Although
book blurbs constantly put people in the same league with Tolkien,
for once, it's the truth!  (As an interesting side point, Kay worked
with Chris Tolkien on The Silmarillion.)  I happened to get the last
copy by mistake (forgot to send in the SF Book Club thing one month,
and am I ever glad I did!  You can get all three volumes for them in
hardcover for about 4.98 a piece.

Richard A. Schafer
(713) 527-4984

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 06:28:01 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP ("Cathal Phelan 44205") writes:
>Earthsea trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate in the
>world of sword and sorcery novels.

Not true.  Unlike most fantasy, the characterization is very strong
and the world is consistent and overtly fantastic.  The parrables
are very well woven into the story line - and, unlike most
children's books, it doesn't belittle the child's awareness by over
simplification, or ignore it with too many complextities.  I first
read it when I was eight and last read it 3 months ago; I still
think its fantastic.

> I would like to suggest the following few examples as being
>of that better class;
>1/. The Belgariad ( 5 books in the series) by Eddings.

Only if you like novels that telegraph their blows far ahead of
time.  There are no surprises here.  The treatment of magic is the
only unique thing in the entire book.  Characterization is very
poor, but gets slightly better throughout the set.

>2/. The Magician  by Feist.

Its called _Magician_, no The.  You're right, this is good despite a
tendency to resort to 'deus ex machina'.  At least as good as
_A_Wizard_of_Earthsea_.

>3/. The War of Powers ( book 1 and 2 ) by Vardiman et al.

?.  I'll have to read this one.

>4/. Split Infinity trilogy by Anthony.

This is sh*t.  Anthony is one of those authors with terrific ideas
but terrible implementation.  If he would just stop explaining each
and every symbol or allegory in the book, and just leave them be, he
would do fine.  He seems to think his readers are too stupid to
recognize a symbol or understand an allegory.  Hmm, maybe they are.
:-)

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 18:21:43 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans
From: Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP writes:
> I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the Earthsea
>trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate in the world of
>sword and sorcery novels.

It's not a very flashy story to be sure, but rather a fascinating
story about real people in an interesting and self-consisting
fantasy world. I consider it a pearl amongst fantasy stories.

>I hope that all this praise, including that of Mr. Farren come due
>to lack of exposure to the truly great novels/series/trilogies in
>this area.
>
> I would like to suggest the following few examples as being
>of that better class;
>1/. The Belgariad ( 5 books in the series) by Eddings.
>2/. The Magician  by Feist.
>3/. The War of Powers ( book 1 and 2 ) by Vardiman et al.
>4/. Split Infinity trilogy by Anthony.

Perhaps he just dosen't have the same taste as you. Certainly I hold
the abovementioned opinion despite having read all the books you
mention above. I tend to grade books according to how often I can
reread them (I like rereading books). Those grades are not too
useful for others (some people can't enjoy rereading any books; I've
got some I've reread 10+ times), but at least they can indicate the
relative merits of a book.

The Belgariad: Quite good, but not great. If you like the first book
you'll like the rest (they are just more of the same). I expect to
reread it in about 4-5 years.

The Magician: and it's sequels are good solid entertainment that I'm
not ashamed to have on my shelves. Nevertheless, I like it more for
it's portrayal of a good fantasy world than for it's peerless prose
(it isn't - peerless I mean). Rereadability: Every 3rd year.

The War of Powers ( book 1 and 2 ): I'm glad that you at least
exclude the 3 last volumes. A pleasant yarn with some good ideas for
my fantasy game. I don't begrudge the money I paid (I borrowed
them), but I won't need to borrow them again.

Split Infinity trilogy: I keep these for one thing only: the
marvelous "Game" scenes. The Game is a great invention of Anthony's,
and I've reread those portion of the books several times. As for the
rest, it's full of the same old Anthony characters with their
self-inflicted mixed-up personality problems. Anthony has only one
hero type (male or female) and he/she is extremely tedious (to
forestall flames: I've read the Battle Circle, the Xanth multology
and the Split Infinity books - nothing else.)

>I hope that I have been able to hope those who really wish to read
>some great SF books.

Try recommending The Harpist trilogy by Patricia McKillip.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 87 22:39:13 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Earthsea,Belgariad etc.....

oppy@unrvax.UUCP (Brian Oppy) writes:
>Hear, Hear!  I wish to add my opinion that the Belgariad is the
>best series I have ever read.  To reiterate, certainly the outcome
>is predictable, but that is true for _all_ SF, Fantasy books I have
>read - including Kane, Elric, Tolkien, and Eartsea.  The real trick
>in fantasy/sf is to make the characters seem real and keep the
>magic alive.

Well, yes, kiddie fantasy is almost always predictable. Here's a
trick: if the plot description (look on the back of the book)
involves a quest, a prophecy, a <protagonist> bumbling from one
scene to another, or a <protagonist> just coming into his/her
powers, then avoid it. This probably covers most of the fantasy
books you've read.

But it's time to graduate to *fantasy*, and leave all the kiddie
stuff behind, now. That's right, it means you won't have to buy any
more TSR books. No more waiting for the next book in Stasheff's "The
Warlock Dulled" series.  So pick these up. Soon.

   Brust, Steven
      Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla
      Brokedown Palace
      (and that one about Creation...)

   Chalker, Jack
      "Dancing Gods" series             (both are parodies of fantasy)
      And the Devil Will Drag You Under

   Cherryh, C. J.
      "Morgaine" trilogy
      Tree of Sword and Jewels          (second book)

   Cook, Glen
      "Dread Empire" series

   Lovecraft, H. P.
      almost anything...
      The Dunwich Horror, etc.

   Powers, Tim
      The Anubis Gates
      The Drawing of the Dark
      To Forsake the Sky
      Dinner at Deviant's Palace

   Pratt, Terry                         (funniest fantasy I've ever
      The Colour of Magic                   read - especially LTF)
      The Light Fantastic

   Reaves, Michael
      The Shattered Realm

   Vance, Jack
      Lyonesse
      Dying Earth (and others in that series)

   Wolfe, Gene
      Book of the New Sun
      Soldier of the Mist

   Zelazny, Roger
      The Changeling, Madwand
      Dilvish the Damned, The Changing Land
      Nine Princes in Amber, et.al.
      Lord of Light
      Creatures of Light and Darkness
      Last Defender of Camelot          (ss, some fantasy)
      Unicorn Variations                        (ditto)

   Zimmer, Marion Bradley
      Mists of Avalon

Start with these. Either you'll give up kiddie fantasy forever, or
there's no hope for you.

Fantasy, like Science Fiction, is the arena of imagination. But
there are authors who feel that they can write trash and people will
buy it anyway.  I don't want to continually be reading the same
plot. But that's the pitfall of any tight genre - SF, westerns,
romance, fantasy, etc. - and I respect the writers who see the trap,
avoid it, and go on to new lands of thought and magic.

The "Earthsea" trilogy was a nicely turned mood piece. Nothing
original, perhaps, but well written and plotted. It wasn't trying to
be a romp'em and stomp'em fantasy. Instead, it was like listening to
a favorite piece of music - you've heard it before, but you always
find something new in it that'll run through your head the next day.

Feist's "Magician" series is the worst kind of pulp fantasy,
suitable for getting him money and little else. Every page is
drivel, every idea stolen, every character stereotyped.

Eddings, in his "Belgariad", is just as bad.

Moorcock's "Elric" was an anti-hero, a character haunted by the evil
he had done and would do. A strong central character moving through
a landscape of the imagination, but still dirty from its "lone
avenger" roots (Conan, Fafhrd, Thongor et.al., as well as earlier
efforts by Moorcock himself).

Tolkien stands out as a master of the language. He could write
shopping lists worth reading, I'll betcha. His history was
impeccable. His books took years to write and research. To compare
it to drivel turned out in one or two months is pointless.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #366
Date:  3 Sep 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #366
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #366
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 366

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Adams & Anthony & Appel &
                         Armstrong & Atwood (2 msgs) & 
                         Bradley (3 msgs) & Bull &
                         Donaldson & Piper &
                         Animals in SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 14:54:53 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!terminus!nyssa@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: (* wee SPOILERS *) _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
Subject: Agency_

There are some spoilers which follow, read at your own risk.

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>I have just finished reading _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
>Agency_ by Doug Adams.  As a fan of the _Hitchhiker's_ series, I
>would recommend this book to other Adams fans.  Enough said on
>that.

Agreed.

> Also, has anyone else out there read _Dirk_ and if so, what do you
>think about it ?  As I mentioned above, I found it to be mainstream
>Doug Adams fare and as such enjoyed it quite thoroughly.  I
>definitely see shadows of Doctor Who in the book - some of it
>rather reminds me of _City of Death_ and the Jagaroth - especially
>the Don's quarters/time machine which seems to be another jammed
>chameleon circuit to me.  I must say, though, that Mr. Adams
>fascination with computers resulted in some rather awkward and
>out-of-place bits in the book.  I had no problem with it (being a
>programmer) but I tend to think that non-programmers might find it
>a bit annoying.

I bought and read the book over the July 4th weekend.  I am not
going to comment on the computer stuff in it, it seemed OK to me.

When I read it, my mind kept flashing, "Shada" to me, and then "City
of Death".  Yes, it appears that he has finally novalised the two
books, combined into one!  Some names, even, are taken directly!

Oh well.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 16:39:17 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

   I really can't believe that someone thinks Piers Anthony's Split
Infinity series is "one of the great" science fiction/fantasy books
around, and that it's better than LeGuin's Earthsea.  This is your
personal opinion, yes.  But I disagree.  Yes, that's my personal
opinion too.  LeGuin is much more subtle and much more rich in
character development.  Anthony is so much like your Sunday cartoon
fare.  Cardboard characterizations, and protagonists just going
through a game.  Many (not all) of his books follow the production
line story of a male character, who's having problems with his
female counterparts, get's involved in a game, disguised as an
adventure.  His latest series, Bio of a Space Tyrant, made me
realize how shallow his books are.  I've read very many of his
books, and I agree that they are fun.  But that's it.  No depth at
all, although Anthony claims otherwise.

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-544-5349
UUCP:  {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
CSnet: hirai@swatsun.swarthmore.edu
ARPA:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 17:45:40 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: TIME AFTER TIME by Allen Appel

From:   mtgzy!ecl       (Evelyn C. Leeper)
> ...Nor is it Jack Finney's TIME AND AGAIN, which was made into
> SOMEWHERE IN TIME....

Shame on you Evelyn! SOMEWHERE IN TIME is based upon Richard
Matheson's BID TIME RETURN, not Finney's TIME AND AGAIN. The fact
that Matheson's book is a shameless copy of Finney's (at least in
plot) is probably what confused you.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 20:03:17 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: AFTER THE ZAP by Michael Armstrong

AFTER THE ZAP [***+]
Michael Armstrong

Years ago, a thermonuclear bomb detonated high in the stratosphere
burnt out every bit of electronics in the Western Hemisphere. It
also did pretty much the same thing to the people.

A few - very few - retained any ability to read. Some got perfect
recall.  Most lost all their memory. Nobody particularly minds their
current tribal lifestyles, but then, they they don't remember
anything different.

Holmes Weatherby III (that's "eye eye eye") is a freelance Reader,
deciphering people's names from various bits of text they had near
them when they woke - he names two people right off - "Electrolux"
and "Brontosaurus Oil Company".  But up in the Klondike, people want
to leave their pasts behind them, and they don't much like Readers.
Holmes narrowly escapes to a conveniently placed blimp (a lot of
things get conveniently placed) owned by a group of fanatics
dedicated to giving people atomic bombs - but there's a catch. The
key to detonate the bombs is imprinted in the heart of a living
child.

The post-holocaust story has been done and redone, but it's been a
long time since I've read one as lively as "After the Zap". It's a
fun read, in the same vein as the "Mad Max" films. The book could
easily have turned into an extended lecture on the evils of atomic
weapons, but Armstrong has done a masterful job of packing every
page of the book with plot and action.

This book is a wild card - unpredictable and surprising.  However,
sometimes coincidence is just a bit stretched... Armstrong doesn't
dwell on it, but it's there, and no reasons are given.

I recommend this book to anyone who wants to relax with a good, fun
book, one you won't soon return to the used book store.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 15:31:00 GMT
From: moss!lzfme!lfl@RUTGERS.EDU (L.F.LARSEN)
Subject: Handmaid's Tale by Atwood

I'm sure that everyone who read "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret
Atwood remembers the term "salvaging" which was used to describe the
periodic public execution/revival meetings.  In a newspaper article
about the Philippines Human Rights Commission (Star-Ledger 7/30/87
p.3) I noticed the following:

   "Cases filed before the commission by political prisoners or
   relatives, involved "salvagings" - the Philippine term for
   extrajudicial execution, torture and disappearance."

I wonder whether this is a coincidence, or whether Atwood borrowed
the [translated] Filipino term.

Lance F. Larsen
ihnp4!lzfme!lfl

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 21:09:03 GMT
From: artecon.artecon!kunciov@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert C. Kunciov)
Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale by Atwood

Ms. Atwood explicitly refers to her borrowing of the term from
'origin in the Philippines to become a general term for the
elimination of one's [sic] political enemies,' in the _Historical
Notes. . ._ section of her novel.

Robert Kuncio
{sdcsvax|hplabs|ncr-sd|hpfcla|ihnp4}!hp-sdd!artecon!rck

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 08:35:32 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Author politics (MZB)

elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) writes:
>You must admit that she's right, evolutionarily. If a woman does
>not reproduce, her genes are not passed on to her descendants
>(obviously). If she does reproduce, her genes are passed on to her
>descendants. It is only logical that women whose genes urge them to
>reproduce, will be the ancestors of most of the people living in
>Darkover, and thus the people in Darkover will, indeed, have the
>genetic disposition to reproduce as frequently and productively as
>possible (since that's what insures the survival of a genetic line,
>and genetic lines which do not survive, obviously will not be
>there!).

This is a rather symplistic view.  The problem is with the ``if a
woman does not reproduce, then her genes are not passed on''
sentence.  Clearly, she does not pass them on to her descendants,
but her full brothers and sisters will pass on those very same genes
to their descendants.  Now, assume that any couple can expect to
raise 3 children by themselves without any help.  And assume that
that same couple can raise 8 children if they have the help of a
childless woman.  And assume that it is most common for a childless
woman to help her brother or her sister raise their kids.

Bingo. Those genes which result in homosexuality will spread like
wildfire through the population.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 19:08:21 GMT
From: seismo!sun!microsoft!ellene@RUTGERS.EDU (Ellen Eades)
Subject: Re: Author politics (MZB)

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>I think you should look up the reference I rather vaguely gave in
>the message that prompted the flame.  Bradley defends what happens
>in Dark- over Landfall in a rather obnoxious way, basically saying
>that child- lessness is as unnatural for women as vegetarianism is
>for lions.  It's not just an inference from what happens in the
>fiction.

Bradley wrote _Darkover Landfall_ a LONG time ago, and a lot of her
politics have changed drastically since that time (one example is
the Free Amazon concept which periodically causes large numbers of
mostly- male people to throw her books at the nearest wall and large
numbers of mostly-female people to start writing wish-fulfillment
fan stories :-) :-) :-) ).  I would NOT infer anything about her
present politics from a story written as long ago as Landfall.

Ellen Eades
...uw-beaver!microsoft!ellene

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 19:42:28 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Author politics (MZB)

ellene@forward.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes:
> jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>> I think you should look up the reference I rather vaguely gave
>> [...]
> Bradley wrote _Darkover Landfall_ a LONG time ago, and a lot of
> her politics have changed drastically since that time [...]

I still think you (or someone) should look up the reference.  As I
recall, it was written well after Darkover Landfall.  But whether or
not she's *changed* her politics is somewhat beside the point in any
case.

> I would NOT infer anything about her present politics from a story
> written as long ago as Landfall.

OK, but who has inferred anything about her *present* politics?  And
(sigh) the whole point of this is (or was) that it's not an
inference from the fiction to the author but the other way around.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 09:53 PDT
From: newman.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: "War for the Oaks" by Emma Bull

I just finished reading "War for the Oaks" by Emma Bull, and I liked
it a lot.  It is a modern fantasy set in Minneapolis, and while it
has some minor weak spots, the book as a whole was very enjoyable.

Emma Bull co-edited the Liavek books with Will Shaterley, who is
apparently her husband.  I enjoyed those books, and on the strength
of that, a recommendation from a friend, and the fact that Bull
thanks Steven Brust, I bought the book.

The book lived up to my expectations, and provided an interesting
fantasy plot that moved along nicely, and which contained a couple
of nice surprises.  It also provided some interesting characters and
an interesting use of the music-as-magic idea.  I particularly liked
the musical sensibilities of the heroine.  The few weak spots are
minor, and did not detract from my enjoyment of the book as I read
it; the worst fault, in my opinion, was that a main character
changed rather too suddenly for my taste.

An enjoyable, escapist book.  Unpretentious and fun.  Potentially a
good book to introduce someone to modern fantasy.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 07:51:39 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Donaldson (was Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ (really Feist))

sinnott@nvpna1.UUCP (Michael Sinnott) writes:
>I would also be prepared to accept criticism of a series of books I
>like very much , the Thomas Covenant double trilogy by Stephen
>Donaldson. The plot in those books can assume rather tortuous
>twists and the atmosphere is, if anything, overly convincing with a
>pervasive feeling of depression throughout. But it could hardly be
>called the romp of a gloomy guy through cardboard countryside - the
>essence of Earthsea.

Well put (the Donaldson part).  When I first read the Covenant book
I was absolutely disgusted with the attitude of the 'Unbeliever'.
His characterization was very strong, but highly unlikable.  The
other characters were moderately well characterized, and the plot
seemed fairly mundane.  The world, was fantastic.  This was the
first book I read where I found it distasteful to identify with the
protagonist.  I soon discovered that if I ignored Covenant, I really
enjoyed the books.

BTW, Have you read his book about these people with this mirror
fetish (_Mirrors_of_Her_ Dreams, I think)?  Really poor.  I expected
better from Donaldson.  It reads like I would imagine a Harlequin
romance would.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 87 17:21:46 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Piper's third Fuzzy novel

From:   jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu    (John Robert Leavitt)
>>More recently (about two years ago?) someone found what turned out
>>to be an unfinished manuscript of Piper's third Fuzzy novel.
>
> I think the title to this one is "Federation," although this may
> be inaccurate....I DO know that it at least has something to do
> with Fuzzies, since there are two of them on the cover, along with
> some very military looking folks.

No, FEDERATION is not the third Fuzzy novel; it's a collection of
short fiction set in the same future history as the Fuzzy novels.
There's a companion volume as well, entitled EMPIRE.

The third Fuzzy novel by Piper is, as has been mentioned, FUZZIES
AND OTHER PEOPLE. Others have already mentioned that before Piper's
manuscript was found, William Tuning had written another "third"
Fuzzy novel called FUZZY BONES. What I haven't seen anyone yet
mention, though, is that Ardath Mayhar had also written a Fuzzy
novel --- GOLDEN DREAMS; A FUZZY ODYSSEY.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 87 17:36:06 GMT
From: moss!sfsup!jerryk@RUTGERS.EDU (J.Keselman)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

hamilton@mit-caf.UUCP (David P. Hamilton) writes:
> jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>> Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.

Well, there's always the book that the film "Bladerunner" was based
on, Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"  A
subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
for android-type animals as pets.  The protagonist was quite
interested in procuring some pets of his own.  I do believe that
owning real animals in this world was against the law.

Jerry Keselman

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 87 17:13:18 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: Re: Animals in SF <Stephen R. Boyett>

There's also

The "Fuzzy" books by H. Beam Piper and various others.

"Startide Rising" by David Brin -- which features a space team of
humans and dolphins.

and plenty of stories with alien races that could be called
"animals."

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 19:07:09 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
>anybody know of others?

Walter R. Brooks, _Freddy and the Men from Mars_ :-) (Actually, this
is more like SF in animal stories than the other way round)

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  3-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #367
Date:  3 Sep 87 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #367
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  3 Sep 87 1040-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #367
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 3 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 367

Today's Topics:

              Films - Rollerball (12 msgs) & Alien III

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 87 04:40:50 GMT
From: msellers@mntgfx.mentor.com (Mike Sellers)
Subject: information, please: Rollerball

I'm looking for any and all information regarding the movie
"Rollerball", as in where the story came from (was it a book or
short story first?), where it was filmed, did they actually build
the track/rink used in the film, etc.  Any information about the
background (supposed, deduced, or observed) of the world in the
movie, or about the game itself would also be of interest.

Thanks in advance.

Mike Sellers
...!tektronix!sequent!mntgfx!msellers
Mentor Graphics Corp, EPAD

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 04:54:33 GMT
From: hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu (Ron Hitchens)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball (repost)

msellers@mntgfx.MENTOR.COM (Mike Sellers) writes:
>I'm looking for any and all information regarding the movie
>"Rollerball", as in where the story came from (was it a book or
>short story first?), where it was filmed, did they actually build
>the track/rink used in the film, etc.  Any information about the
>background (supposed, deduced, or observed) of the world in the
>movie, or about the game itself would also be of interest.

  Well, I can't answer all your questions, but here is the review
from Mike Weldon's Psychotronic Encyclopedia.  It may answer a
couple of them:

ROLLERBALL
  1975 United Artists
Producer/Director: Norman Jewison
Screenwriter: William Harrison

   In the year 2018, James Cann is the star player of a violent
elimination sport called Rollerball who becomes too popular for the
totalitarian government.  This mostly dull science-fiction dud,
based on an ESQUIRE short story, features ponderous classical music,
Maud Adams, Ralph Richardson, John Houseman, and John Beck.  DEATH
RACE 2000, made by New World for a fraction of ROLLERBALL's budget,
was far more successful in relation to its cost (R)

Ron Hitchens
hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu
hitchens@ut-sally.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 05:50:33 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!utcsri!hofbauer@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

> I'm looking for any and all information regarding the movie
> "Rollerball", as in where the story came from (was it a book or
> short story first?), where it was filmed, did they actually build
> the track/rink used in the film, etc.  Any information about the
> background (supposed, deduced, or observed) of the world in the
> movie, or about the game itself would also be of interest.

Don't know about the source of the story... It was filmed in Munich,
West Germany and they used the velodrome track from the 1972
Olympics.  It was a commentary on our preoccupation with sport.
Rollerball is football, hockey and roller derby all rolled into one
and presented as a opiate for the masses a la a Roman circus by the
multi-national corporations, which rule the world of the future. One
star of the sport dares to rise up against the power of the
corporation and gets squashed for his efforts. It was directed by
Canada's (yeah) Norman Jewison, who most recently directed "Agnes of
God" and "A Soldier's Story" and is also responsible for "Fiddler On
the Roof", among others.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 16:53:03 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

>   In the year 2018, James Cann is the star player of a violent
>elimination sport called Rollerball who becomes too popular for the
>totalitarian government.

>This mostly dull science-fiction dud, based on an ESQUIRE short
>story, features ponderous classical music, Maud Adams, Ralph
>Richardson, John Houseman, and John Beck.

The story is "Roller Ball Murder" by Harry Harrison.

And I disagree that it's a dud.  I've always found the society
implied by rollerball to be fascinating, and I think Caan did a good
job of trying to show the problems of honor in an inhuman situation.

And, oh, yes. maud Adams.

Houseman, by the way, spent the movie looking vaguely unconfortable.

>DEATH RACE 2000, made by New World for a fraction of ROLLERBALL's
>budget, was far more successful in relation to its cost (R)

he's joking, right? Tell me he's joking. This movie makes Night of
the Living Dead look like a high-budget Epic.  At least he could
have used something reasonable like Damnation Alley or Xanadu...

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 19:40:17 GMT
From: ames!mips!hansen@RUTGERS.EDU (Craig Hansen)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

msellers@mntgfx.MENTOR.COM (Mike Sellers) writes:
> I'm looking for any and all information regarding the movie
> "Rollerball",

The source material was a short story, titled "Roller Ball Murder,"
by Harry Harrison (though I'm not certain of the author), published
around 1978 (was in a "Best SF" collection around that time). The
setting was a corporation- dominated world, and the rules of the
game changed with every week, becoming more brutal each time. Back
in school at the time, I selected the story for use in a political
science class, prior to the theatrical release, and after the movie
came out, stole the theme for use in an attack on the vagaries of
our local school board ("In the future, there will be no wars; there
will only be: BOARDMEETINGS").

Craig Hansen
Manager, Architecture Development
MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
...decwrl!mips!hansen

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 02:45:56 GMT
From: hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu (Ron Hitchens)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>The story is "Roller Ball Murder" by Harry Harrison.  And I
>disagree that it's a dud...

   Since you're refering to the article I posted I guess I should
respond.  I don't necessarily disagree with you, Chuq.  The review I
posted is from a book entitled "The Psychotronic Encyclopedia of
Film" by Michael Weldon.  It's a collection of reviews of all the
sorts of trashy movies that people like Weldon (and me) grew up
watching at Saturday matinees and on the Late Show.  Weldon
apparently never outgrew that phase, and has collected several
thousand reviews of grade B thru Z movies.  Many of his reviews are
VERY tongue-in-cheek, and most contain more entertainment than
critical value.

   As for the dud remark, I think Weldon was referring to it's
box-office performance.  I'm pretty sure it was a commercial
non-hit.  And this:

>>DEATH RACE 2000, made by New World for a fraction of ROLLERBALL's
>>budget, was far more successful in relation to its cost (R)

...means that DR2k cost much less to make, and earned much more money.
Box-office earnings, of course, are not really a very accurate
measure of film quality, but I'd rather spend money on DR2k than RB,
DR2k is a lot more fun.  I can't remember much of anything about RB,
which means I didn't find much of interest in it (from my
point-of-view).

>...At least he could have used something reasonable like Damnation
>Alley or Xanadu...

   Shoot, I remember most of XANADU, and I kind of liked it, but I
think that mostly is because of a hormonal reaction to Olivia
Newton-John...

Ron Hitchens
hitchens@godzilla.cs.utexas.edu
hitchens@ut-sally.utexas.edu
...{siesmo,sun,wherever}!ut-sally!hitchens

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 05:58:00 GMT
From: mfryar@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

Things that are sortof like spoilers follow.....

hofbauer@utcsri.UUCP writes:
>> I'm looking for any and all information regarding the movie
>> "Rollerball",
>Don't know about the source of the story... It was filmed in
>Munich, West Germany and they used the velodrome track from the
>1972 Olympics.  It was a commentary on our preoccupation with
>sport. Rollerball is football, hockey and roller derby all rolled
>into one and presented as a opiate for the masses a la a Roman
>circus by the multi-national corporations, which rule the world of
>the future. One star of the sport dares to rise up against the
>power of the corporation and gets squashed for his efforts.

I assume you mean James Caan's character.  He is the one who rises
up against the power of the corporation, or at least he becomes what
I would think the corporation would feel to be overly popular among
the people.  But in the final scene he is the only player left on
the track, skating around and around to cheers of "Jonathan,
Jonathan". It sure seems likely he'd be offed as soon as he left the
track, but the movie ends with him quite unsquashed.

Matt Conroy

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 14:09:24 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

hansen@mips.UUCP (Craig Hansen) writes:
> The source material was a short story, titled "Roller Ball
> Murder," by Harry Harrison (though I'm not certain of the
> author)...

Chuq von Rospach propagates this error, too.  The author was WILLIAM
Harrison, not Harry.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 15:31:33 GMT
From: vonn@faline.bellcore.com (Vonn Marsch)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>DEATH RACE 2000, made by New World for a fraction of ROLLERBALL's
>>budget, was far more successful in relation to its cost (R)
> he's joking, right? Tell me he's joking. This movie makes Night of
> the Living Dead look like a high-budget Epic.  At least he could
> have used something reasonable like Damnation Alley or Xanadu...

First of all, I really (REALLY) liked _Rollerball_, Death_Race_2000
and Night_of_the_Living_Dead. I think your missing the point,
though, if you judge a movie even indirectly by how much it cost to
make.

How much a movie cost to make and how much a movie earned should be
unimportant factors to the movie viewer; the only money figures that
sould be considered are how much you have to pay to watch the movie
and how much the movie worth to watch.

Vonn Marsch
vonn@bellcore.com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 87 17:01:16 GMT
From: utterback@husc4.harvard.edu (Brian Utterback)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>The story is "Roller Ball Murder" by Harry Harrison.

It's William.

He also wrote the screenplay.  This is getting to be a habit, first
Larry for David Niven , now Harry for William Harrison.

Brian Utterback

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 87 17:46:22 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!jack!otto!jimi!asci!brian@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian
From: Douglass)
Subject: Rollerball, a dud? (was Information on Rollerball)

If in fact Rollerball was created from the mind of Harry Harrison,
which there seems to be concurrence on, I'm surprised I missed that
fact.  Harry Harrison is one of my all time favorite authors of such
classics as The DeathWorld trilogy, The Stainless Steel Rat Saves
The World, The Stainless Steel Rat Saves The World Again, and a few
other well received books--for the connoisseur, the SSR series are
some of the most hysterical tongue-in-cheek James Bond of the future
books ever written, but that discussion belongs in
rec.arts.sf-lovers.  Plus, HH has another little story that went
cinematic in the 70's, a little something called Soylent Green.  A
very palatable story on future eating habits.  Yum yum!

The point of this is that Rollerball was trying to say exactly what
was confirmed by Mr.  Hitchens statement above that DR2K was more
fun.  Rollerball portrays a society dominated by corporations, where
individual initiative and growth is shown as impossible.  The
Rollerball "game" is the represented enforcer of this doctrine, as
evidenced by Houseman's statements that the track, the ball, the
rules, the very physics of the game are designed to beat the players
in Rollerball.  This is to show that no one man is greater than the
game, only a team can win.  This is direct symbology that no one man
is greater than the corporation, only by being a team player can one
survive.

Harrision contends that because man is the perfect machine of
adaptation, one man is greater than the corporation, and that a
single man's life must be held sacred by society (also the resulting
theme of Soylent Green).  This is his thematic premise.  Johnathan E
has been trained by the old black man in the story from his very
childhood to play Rollerball, and beat it.  That's all Johnathan E
knows, as portrayed by James Caan simplistic approach.  He is the
perfect Rollerball Machine, the perfect instrument to destroy the
corporate doctrine.  He does not play by the corporate rules because
in his world there are no rules, as shown by his taking of Moonpie
home with him.  Johnathan E is Savage Barbarian that brings down the
Roman Empire.

Although it may have been a box office failure, and there are many
ways to "make" that happen, it has always been the darling of the
late night and cable crowd.  I personally know for a fact that the
movie The Stuntman was sabotaged by various elements.

My point about DR2K is that that story again states that human death
is acceptable if the powers that be deem it so.  This concept has
its place (warfare) but it is entirely heinous in regards to use as
entertainment, as is the place in DR2K and in Rollerball.  DR2K
glorifies entertaining death, Rollerball exposes it.  Therefore such
statements as

>but I'd rather spend money on DR2k than RB, DR2k is a lot more fun.

support the Rollerball premise rather than deny.

With the explosive growth in the popularity of the Faces of Death
videotapes and most corporations giving lie detector tests and drug
tests to employees, can Rollerball be far behind?

Harry, if you're out there, thanks again for warning us

Brian Douglass
Applied Systems Consultants, Inc. (ASCI)
P.O. Box 13301
Las Vegas, NV 89103
Office: (702) 733-6761
Home: (702) 871-8182
brian@asci.uucp
UUCP:    {mirror,sdcrdcf}!otto!jimi!asci!brian

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 87 20:11:51 GMT
From: apex!gary@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary Wisniewski)
Subject: Re: information, please: Rollerball

An interesting aside... Harry Harrison wrote "Make Room, Make Room",
which later became the movie "Soylent Green".  For some reason, I
have a link in my mind between the two movies.  Maybe they share
some cast members or producer/director ... maybe just a misfired
neuron in my mind.

Gary Wisniewski
{allegra,bellcore,cadre}!pitt!darth!apex!gary

------------------------------

Date: 18-Aug-1987 0441
From: boyajian%akov76.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Ridley Scott and Alien3

From:   <DAMIAN%JHUIGF.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> Can anyone verify the rumors I've heard about Ridley Scott
> (Director of the original Alien) directing the Alien 3 movie? I've
> heard this, but I'm not sure if its true, or just another rumor. I
> didn't think that after 2 movies like Legend and The Fly (Which I
> loved, but did not-that-well at the box office), his chances were
> too good.

(1) THE FLY wasn't directed by Ridley Scott but by David Cronenberg.

(2) THE FLY did very good box office.

Back when ALIENS made such a hit that it was decided to go for a
third one, Ridley Scott's name came up as possible director. I
haven't heard anything since, either yay or nay.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #368
Date:  4 Sep 87 1405-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #368
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 87 1405-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #368
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 368

Today's Topics:

                     Books -  Asimov (6 msgs) &
                              Brin (6 msgs) &
                              Leiber & Yarbro

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 15:33:08 GMT
From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter R. Clark Jr.)
Subject: Re: Foundation & Earth

From: ferman@drcvax.arpa
> Being in a rush today some info if you will:
> ? Comments on Foundation and Earth ???? anybody.
> ? Comments on the author ?John? Hogan and some of his writings.

I read Foundation and Earth a while ago, and don't really remember
details, but I'll try to help. For starters, I didn't like the
ending.  To be specific, I didn't like what happened, not the
writing itself.

The story picks up (again) with the first foundation wondering what
the deal is with the second foundation. Do they still exist, are
they watching over us (of course they don't like that) and is the
Seldon plan back on course? And, of course, the answers are yes,yes,
and almost. They tell you this right away, I wouldn't reveal
anything important. Oh, and I forgot the all important "does Earth
really exist?". That too hasn't been revealed yet (although if you
have read I,Robot through A Pebble In the Sky, you know that it
does). SO, they find this guy who always seems to know by gut
feeling the right thing to do in any situation (no magic powers, his
brain just seems to know what is right). Before I get sarcastic, let
me say that I did enjoy the book, and even though this may sound
like a silly story line, it sounds reasonable in the story.

I've said enough. It's a good story, but I was very disappointed
with the ending, as I said.  Buy the book, and buy the sequel as
well. Let me know what you thought of it when you are done, if oyu
think about it.

Pete Clark

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 16:10:45 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!macom1!paisano!demasi@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael C. De
From: Masi)
Subject: Re: Foundation & Earth

prc@hropus.UUCP (Peter R. Clark Jr. ) writes:
> From: ferman@drcvax.arpa
>> ? Comments on Foundation and Earth ???? anybody.
> I read Foundation and Earth a while ago, and don't really remember
> details, but I'll try to help. For starters, I didn't like the
> ending.  To be specific, I didn't like what happenned, not the
> writing itself....  I've said enough. It's a good story, but I was
> very disappointed with the ending, as I said.  Buy the book, and
> buy the sequel as well. Let me know what you thought of it when
> you are done, if oyu think about it.

Being somewhat of a SF fan, I started reading the Foundation series
a few years ago.  Now granted, I knew that I was starting a somewhat
lengthy endeavor, (the 'trilogy' proper had already expanded way
past the three book limit) and I also knew that these books were not
exactly self standing (to read anything of Asimov's, one must really
have a few of his more basic works, _I_Robot_ etc, under the belt)
but after about the fifth book, I believe, I had started to wonder
if there was ever going to be any conclusion.

Now I was hardly expecting your basic happy ending (all monsters
killed, handsome young starfighter gets princess, large furry
creature from Alpha Centuri returns home, mates, gives birth to
Tribble, etc.)  I understand that the scope of these novels extends
way past that sort of trivial, movie-like wrap-up, but what I was
wondering was: Does it ever reach some form of logical conclusion?
It seemed that the last few novels in the series didn't really end,
but just kind of stopped.  The last novel I read before giving up
(the name of which totally escapes me) left me wondering if somebody
had ripped the last chapter or two out of the book before I'd bought
it.  The only indication I had that this was not the case was a
paragraph or two after the actual end of the book which basically
said: "Hey!  Now that you've killed a few weeks reading this little
link to the next few stories, go start on the _Caves_of_Steel_
series to more fully grasp what you've already missed!  Then you can
read buy another fifteen Foundation books!  Next week,
_Foundation_Meets_ Megalon_"

"Bullshit," I thought.

So anyway, if there's anybody out there who has maybe read farther
down the series than myself and has seen the light at end of the
tunnel, (or has come to the same conclusion I have) please respond.
For the most part, I really did enjoy the series.  I'm just afraid
that Asimov (or I) will go senile before something conclusive
happens (& I'm 24).

Any comments?

Michael C. De Masi
AT&T Communications
3702 Pender Drive
Fairfax, Virginia 22030
Phone: 703-246-9555
UUCP:   seismo!decuac!grebyn!paisano!demasi

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 87 01:28:53 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Foundation & Earth

ferman@drcvax.arpa:
>? Comments on Foundation and Earth ???? anybody.

Minor(?) SPOILER!!!

I found the ending almost incomprehensible until I found a copy of
ROBOTS AND EMPIRE to explain previous (_very_ previous...) history.

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!cwruecmp!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 14:12:01 GMT
From: moss!hropus!prc@RUTGERS.EDU (Pete R. Clark Jr.)
Subject: Re: Foundation & Earth

prc@hropus.UUCP (Peter R. Clark Jr.) writes:
> So anyway, if there's anybody out there who has maybe read farther
> down the series than myself and has seen the light at end of the
> tunnel, (or has come to the same conclusion I have) please
> respond.  For the most part, I really did enjoy the series.  I'm
> just afraid that Asimov (or I) will go senile before something
> conclusive happens (& I'm 24).

weeeellllll, sort of. Y'see, he strongly gives the impression in
Foundation and Earth that he has finally told us his view, and even
why, what the final fate of our little corner or the universe will
be. Of course, there is that ever present possibility of a sequel,
but I think that for what you are looking for, this book will
suffice.  However, as someone else on net said, you really need to
read the last book in the robot series, Robots and Empire I think,
to understand the story completely. Actually, you only need to read
it to know who some characters are, and you would probably enjoy the
story (Foun. and Earth) without prior knowledge.

   Which brings me to another point. I must disagree with you about
Asimov's stories not standing alone. While you may not get a total
grasp of the next 20,000 years according to Asimov, I feel that he
does an adequate(sp?) job of filling the reader in on what he/she
needs to know. Yes, you will get a deeper understanding of his
ideas, but I don't feel that you will enjoy the stories any less
without reading the other 12 or so books. I have read them all, but
not in the proper order, and so there were some references that I
did not understand at all until a much later time, and I still
enjoyed them. I, Robot is, I feel, the best place to start, though.

Pete Clark

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 19:46:33 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!fmsrl7!mibte!dcs@RUTGERS.EDU (Don Sortor)
Subject: Re: Foundation & Earth

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
> I found the ending almost incomprehensible until I found a copy of
> ROBOTS AND EMPIRE to explain previous (_very_ previous...)
> history.

Go back and read:

   1.   I Robot
   2.   The Robot Novels
   3.   Robots of Dawn (picks up where the Robot Novels left off)

This will bring you up to Robots and Empire.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 19:12:48 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Foundation & Earth

One book that shows up in neither the Foundation series, nor in the
Robots series, yet is (semi)crucial to understanding Foundation and
Earth is my single favorite Science Fiction novel, Pebble in the
Sky.  I've worn out my third paperback copy of this one, and am now
working on my fourth.  May just match my own personality quirks, but
I get the same warm glow every time I read this one.  I'm sure I've
read it over 50 times.  I'll quit when I can recite it by heart.;-)

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 87 22:23:34 GMT
From: cmcl2!bnl!stern@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric G. Stern)
Subject: Re: Uplift War *spoiler*

While we're talking about inconsistencies in TUW, I found some
nitpicky items that can be explained away rather easily, but I'd
like other people's feelings on this.

Somewhere near the beginning of the book, Fiben is explaining how
yellow and gray card chims undergo routine sterilization at puberty.
Later on, Sylvie says that after her child turned out to be a blue
card, she herself was upgraded to a green, and no longer had to
undergo yearly contraceptive injections.  Furthermore, she was able
to become pregnant.  So what do you think is acually going on?
Also, I'm not sure I understand the difference between a blue and a
green card.  Does anyone have a good explanation.

Eric G. Stern
stern@bnl.arpa
stern@cernvm.bitnet
...!philabs!sbcs!bnl!stern

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 87 13:00:53 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Progenitors

I remember several lines in THE UPLIFT WAR that refer to an
impending return of the Progenitors. Maybe that's why everyone's so
interested, either because the ship the Streaker found was where the
Progenitors were returning from, or just because they didn't want
wolflings messing around and getting some sort of head start on
everyone else.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 87 15:16 EST
From: <W5TJ%CRNLVAX5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: chimp names

Dan Tilque (dant@tekla.tek.com) asks:
>Where did Fiben Bolger (a chimp and major character in _Uplift
>War_) get his first name?  As far as I know, "Fiben" is not a name
>in any major Earth language and is almost definitely not a Tymbrimi
>name.  Nor do I know of any important fictional character named
>Fiben.  Perhaps it's a Kanten name, although why he would be named
>after a Kanten is beyond me.

It seems to me likely that Fiben is a combination of Faben and
Figan, the names of two chimpanzee brothers in Jane Goodall's study
of the chimpanzees at Gombe.  I don't know why she named them that.

David Shallcross
w5tj@crnlvax5.bitnet

------------------------------

From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Progenitors
Date: 8 Aug 87 20:11:23 GMT

ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET:
>I remember several lines in THE UPLIFT WAR that refer to an
>impending return of the Progenitors. Maybe that's why everyone's so
>interested, either because the ship the Streaker found was where
>the Progenitors were returning from, or just because they didn't
>want wolflings messing around and getting some sort of head start
>on everyone else.

I haven't got to that yet, I'm still reading STARTIDE RISING.  But
it occurs to me that (at the least) the Tandu and the Soro both want
to get to the Progenitors first so they can become THE dominant
species -- and here these d*mned wolflings are the ones to run into
the Fleet....  (This may undergo revision, I'm still reading...)

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!cwruecmp!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 04:14:13 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Proginators

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET:
>> I remember several lines in THE UPLIFT WAR that refer to an
>> impending return of the Progenitors. Maybe that's why everyone's
>> so interested, either because the ship the Streaker found was
>> where the Progenitors were returning from, or just because they
>> didn't want wolflings messing around and getting some sort of
>> head start on everyone else.
>
>I haven't got to that yet, I'm still reading STARTIDE RISING.  But
>it occurs to me that (at the least) the Tandu and the Soro both
>want to get to the Progenitors first so they can become THE
>dominant species -- and here these d*mned wolflings are the ones to
>run into the Fleet....  (This may undergo revision, I'm still
>reading...)

Sort of, as I see it. (My qualifications..I've read _Startide_ and
am about to embark on _Uplift_) More like everyone (the established
galactic races) has their own idea about which race is the favoured
race in the eyes of the galactics, and when the galactics return
they will become the dominant race and be able to do what they more
or less please to the others (at least that's what some hope).  Like
modern Earthly religions there is only one "right" belief and it is
mine. (Whoever me happens to be).  I think they're a little upset
that this wolfling race was the first to find what they hope to be
the returning fleet of the progenitors, since you'd figure that the
"chosen" race would have the honour of first contact. It looks to me
like they all want to get the information so that they can get there
and make true contact before anyone else, thus proving their chosen
status.

Gideon Sheps
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!utgpu!gbs
BITNET: gbs@utorgpu
        gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 22:58:43 GMT
From: cmcl2!bnl!stern@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric G. Stern)
Subject: Religion of the galactics, Progenitors *spoiler Startide
Subject: Rising*

The discussion about religion among the galactics seems to have
missed one point that seems pretty religious to me.  Specifically,
in _Startide_Rising_, when Tom Orley encounters the Thennanin
survivor, he says that he is prepared to perform the service of
termination.  In reply, the Thennanin says something to the effect
that no, that is not our way.  By enduring what I must, I will
demonstrate my courage and the worthiness to the Great Ghosts.  Not
only does this seem religious to me, it seems like a belief in an
afterlife.  Opinions?

Eric G. Stern
stern@bnl.arpa
stern@cernvm.bitnet
...!philabs!sbcs!bnl!stern

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 05:18:51 GMT
From: gts@mit-prep.arpa (G. T. Samson)
Subject: Leiber's "Gather, Darkness!" - where?

I'm looking for the book "Gather, Darkness!" by Fritz Leiber (the
guy who wrote the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories).
Unfortunately, when I looked in my local SF bookshop, I was told
that it hadn't been seen for a while, and when I looked in a bigger
chain-store's "Books In Print", it only listed a $15.95 (assumed
hardcover) edition.

Has anyone seen it recently in paperback?  Or at all?  Or even seen
it used?  (I haven't yet, or I would've bought it...)  The editions
I've seen of it in paperback have [? from memory] a picture of a
gray-haired uncowled monk turning away from something, and the title
in large gothic-type orange letters.  (I think there's a picture of
it in _The Science Fiction Encyclopedia_.)

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.  I'm SURE I saw it
fairly recently, on the close order of a year ago, but suddenly it
seems nowhere in sight...

Gregory T. Samson
gts@prep.AI.MIT.EDU
gts@oberon.LCS.MIT.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 87  17:28 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: YARBRO

The new vampire novel by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro (1st in a new series
of six about Olivia, a character from her St.-Germain novel *Blood
Games*) is on the publisher's list for October.  (Hardcover, alas).
It is called *A Flame in Byzantium*.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #369
Date:  4 Sep 87 1421-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #369
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 87 1421-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #369
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 369

Today's Topics:

               Television - The Prisoner (13 msgs) &
                            Blake's 7 & Story Origins


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 87 00:15 EDT
From: <MICROMGR%BCVAX3.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Ted Thibodeau)
Subject: The Prisoner

Alright, I confess, I am confused.  I just saw the last half of the
last episode of the Prisoner, and can't believe I missed most of it.
With my own confusion in mind, I thought I'd send this off, and
maybe avert some other person's problems as well as helping myself
decipher this show...

First, does anyone have an outline of all the episodes, or even some
idea of how many episodes there were?  A detailed listing would be
most appreciated (direct-e-mail me please) but any contributions
would help...If there is a complete listing, I will repost it if
interest seems keen...If not, I will compile as much as possible to
post here.

Second, and this only applies to New Englanders who receive channel
11 from New Hampshire (the public television station there), they
are rebroadcasting the entire series, from start to finish, starting
tomorrow night at 11:PM.  (Tomorrow is Wednesday, August 5) I will
do my best to watch each night and note some kind of summary of each
episode, but I guarantee nothing.  It would be easiest if I had an
outline with holes to fill, then I could watch those nights which
weren't summarized and fill it in

Information on any other stations (closer to Boston?) which have or
will broadcast this series would be most appreciated as well.  This
will also be reposted in summary.

Thanks very much for ANY information leading to the apprehension of
this criminal against society!

Ted Thibodeau, Jr.
BCMUG, IPS
Gasson 012
Boston College
Chestnut Hill, MA  02167
BITNET: MICROMGR@BCVAX3
InterNet: MICROMGR%BCVAX3.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 05:08:06 GMT
From: rchao@cory.berkeley.edu (Robert Chao)
Subject: THE PRISONER Episode List & Basic Information

You can get information on THE PRISONER from the appreciation
society, called SIX OF ONE. Send a S.A.S.E. to

Six of One
P.O. Box 172
Hatfield, PA  19440..

When I wrote, they sent a brochure thing of about four pages of talk
and feedback. To actually join, you must contact the real
headquarters in Ipswich, England. They look like a high-quality
society, and they hold a convention in Portmerion, Wales, where the
show was shot.

Here is a list of the 17 episodes. The order is from the SIX OF ONE
letter and is different from the US videotape order.

 1. Arrival
 2. Free For All
 3. Dance of the Dead
 4. Checkmate
 5. The Chimes of Big Ben
 6. A. B. & C.
 7. The General
 8. The Schizoid Man
 9. Many Happy Returns
10. It's Your Funeral
11. A Change of Mind
12. Hammer Into Anvil
13. Do Not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling
14. Living in Harmony
15. The Girl Who Was Death
16. Once Upon A Time
17. Fall Out

Episodes 13 - 15 and I think one other were filmed last, after the
first 13 had been made for England and they needed to have 17 for
sale to the US.  The Village was not used in them.

I don't know why the SIX OF ONE order is different from the US
videotape order.

The show originally aired in England on Sunday nights in the late
1960's. It debuted in America as the summer replacement for THE
JACKIE GLEASON SHOW in the mid-1970's. A bit later, it had a run on
PBS. Now, all 17 episodes are available on videotape.

Not many books and so forth are commonly available about the show.
SIX OF ONE members receive several books about the background of the
show.

My sources are the SIX OF ONE letter and the guy in KTEH San Jose
who used to "introduce" the show every week.

R. Chao

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 14:53:10 GMT
From: rph@nancy (Richard Hughey)
Subject: Re: The Prisoner

At long last, I finally saw an episode of Secret Agent Man,
McGoohan's show before the Prisoner.  It struck me as a typical sort
of show, with one great shock.  In the office of Drake's superior,
there is a small picture of everybody's favorite bicycle on the
wall!  Does anyone have any thoughts about this?  It seems to
indicate either British control of the village or the international
network of spy administrators hinted at in The Chimes of Big Ben
(come to think of it, maybe this was the superior in Chimes of Big
Ben.  Not sure about this).

Richard Hughey
Brown University
CSNET:  rph%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net
BITNET:  rph@browncs
(decvax, ihnp4, allegra)!brunix!rph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 87 10:54 EDT
From: Steve Anthony <Anthony@ALDERAAN.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #350

With regards to the excellent TV show The Prisoner, I've heard that
it has a "companion" book called "The Prisoner of Portmerion". Does
any one have any information on this book, such as author,
publisher, published date, etc?

BTW: What (if any) is the symbolism behind the two-penny bicycle? I
suppose one could make an argument for the "innocence" that The
Village was trying to convey (but that No. 6 would have none of).

I stayed at a B&B in Porthmadog, Wales; the town next to Portmerion.
The landlady of the B&B had worked as an extra during the filming of
the show. Unfortunately, she had no juicy gossip to share.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1987  13:44 EDT (Sat)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: [jmh: The Prisoner]

A friend of mine who's very much into The Prisoner sent me the
following comments and asked that I forward them.

From: jmh at ATHENA.MIT.EDU

****** SPOILER WARNING ******

Here's some input to the debate as to who Number 6 really is in The
Prisoner.  In the sixteenth episode (the one in which Leo McKern as
Number 2 invokes "condition absolute" on Number 6), Number 2 refers
to Number 6 as "Jackie" twice.  Also, if I am not mistaken, during
the graduation scene Number 2 calls up "Drake" or "Mr. Drake" (I
foret which) to receive his diploma and make a speech.

Also, aren't several of the characters in The Chimes of Big Ben
former associates of Drake's?

JMike

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 08:09:46 GMT
From: jam@computing.lancaster.ac.uk (John A. Mariani)
Subject: The symbolism of the Prisoner's bike

From: Steve Anthony <Anthony@ALDERAAN.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
>BTW: What (if any) is the symbolism behind the two-penny bicycle? I
>suppose one could make an argument for the "innocence" that The
>Village was trying to convey (but that No. 6 would have none of).

I always thought it was ironic that the "emblem" of the Village was
a vehicle when nobody was going anywhere!

UUCP:  ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam
DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs
JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Post : University of Lancaster
       Department of Computing
       Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK.
Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 09:55:54 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: The Prisener (sp???)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that The Prisener (it's LATE,
and I really can't seem to recall more than a blank regarding the
spelling of this simple word - SOMEBODY correct me!) was a sort-of
spin-off of another spy series that had run before it (which used
the same actor as the same character), but I can't remember what it
was called.  Can someone give me some info. about this other series?
Thanks in advance.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4!crash, hplabs!hp-sdd!crash}!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 87 01:27:06 GMT
From: rchao@cory.berkeley.edu (Robert Chao)
Subject: Re: The symbolism of the Prisoner's bike

jam@comp.lancs.ac.uk (John A. Mariani) writes:
>Anthony@ALDERAAN.SCRC.Symbolics.COM writes:
>>BTW: What (if any) is the symbolism behind the two-penny bicycle?
>>I suppose one could make an argument for the "innocence" that The
>>Village was trying to convey (but that No. 6 would have none of).
>
>I always thought it was ironic that the "emblem" of the Village was
>a vehicle when nobody was going anywhere!

This bicycle is called the penny-farthing because the ratio of sizes
of the wheels is the same as that of the penny and farthing coins.
The smaller of the coins, notice, has the greater value. So, even
though something is smaller (like No. 6 in the Village) it may have
more value.

In the episode "Change of Mind" (I think), No. 6 takes hold of the
handlebars of the bicycle in No. 2's big dome room, at a turning
point in the plot when No. 6 begins to get the better of the
Village, instead of the other way around.

These reflections were by the dingly guy who "hosts" THE PRISONER on
KTEH in San Jose, California.

Wow!

R. Chao

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 87 10:05:35 GMT
From: jgh@root.co.uk (Jeremy G Harris)
Subject: Re: The symbolism of the Prisoner's bike

rchao@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Robert Chao) writes:
>... called the penny-farthing because the ratio of sizes of the
>wheels is the same as that of the penny and farthing coins. The
>smaller of the coins, notice, has the greater value.

The size ratio of the wheels of a penny-farthing bike is FAR greater
than that of the coins. Also the farthing, worth one quarter of a
penny, was the smaller coin.

Jeremy Harris
jgh@root.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 87 13:59:16 GMT
From: apm@oasis.icl.stc.co.uk (Andrew Merritt)
Subject: Re: The symbolism of the Prisoner's bike

The farthing was worth a quarter of an old penny (pre 1971, although
the farthing ceased to be legal tender before we were decimalised).
The farthing was the smaller of the two, hence the poster's theory,
while interesting is misfounded.

Andrew Merritt

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 87 23:47:42 GMT
From: rchao@cory.berkeley.edu (Robert Chao)
Subject: Re: The symbolism of the Prisoner's bike

A while ago I posted an article including someone's theory about the
Prisoner's penny-farthing bike and how the wheels are the same sizes
as the coins, and that the smaller coin is worth more. About four
people have written to me and it seems this is wrong.

The theory wasn't mine; it was by the guy who makes "commentary" on
THE PRISONER on KTEH in San Jose. He seemed well-researched, but now
I know better.

R. Chao

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 87 22:48:13 GMT
From: moss!codas!piglet!sjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Seth J. Bradley)
Subject: Re: The symbolism of the Prisoner's bike

I just paid 30$ for a copy of the pre-release version of "The Chimes
of Big Ben".  There is a number of differences between this and the
final version, e.g. different music, more scenes , etc.  The major
difference pertinent to this discussion is in the closing credits.
After the bicycle is completed, the wheels start rotating.  The
small wheel turns into a globe of the earth, the large wheel turns
into the cosmos, which then expands to surround the earth.  The
camera then zooms up to earth until it fills the screen.  It is then
replaced by the word "POP" which fills the screen.  According to the
box which the tape came in, this is supposed to explain the
symbolism behind the bicycle.  I don't quite see the symbolism, but
perhaps some of you out there do.  Any ideas?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 18:15:52 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: The Prisoner (Spoiler!)

This article contains an edited version of a letter I sent to KTEH
Channel 54 when "The Prisoner" was first shown about 18 months ago.
I recount it here for discussion purposes.

At the end of "Once Upon a Time", the "expositor", Scott Appel
("Video Critic for the San Jose Mercury News") talks about the
mythic symbology of the series.  He touches upon Jung's theories
about achieving "psychological oneness".  He says that in "Fall
Out", Number 6 will face the final test before he achieves this
oneness.  I believe that actually there the episode presents three
tests.

The first is to be tempted by his own self-arrogance.  The President
has declared him to be an individual and he does not fall prey to
the feeling "I am the only individual." He declines to condemn both
"The Kid" and the ex-ex-Number 2.  In both cases, he is certainly
tempted to condemn them, the former for his obnoxiousness, the
latter for having been the tool of his torment.

The second is to be tempted by the lust for power.  But, as in
"Arrival" where he refuses Number 2's offer for "a position of
authority", this is easy to refuse.

The third is the most devastating of them all.  It is this opponent
which I believe leads to the paradox that is the Village.  This
opponent is himself.  But this Number 6 is Number 1, a totally
selfish and self-contained parasite.  The crystal ball offered to
Number 6 is just a view-hole to and a relection of the warped
mentality inside us all.  By defeating the totally selfish
individual, Number 6 declares himself not an individual but not a
totally conforming member of the microcosmic society of the Village.

This leads us to the question of the Village.  Is it really a
microcosm of the real world?  I think it is and more.  The last 4
episodes are not only battles within the Village, but battles
against the "darker side" of himself.  Taken in this context, the
Village is seen as the battleground in which one man, Number 6,
fights against himself to rid himself of the destructive aspects of
the totally self-contained individual.  It is both within and
without.

What then could be the message to us?  I believe it is made quite
evident after viewing "Fall Out".  At first, one might think the
message is to not let society make you conform, to be your own self.
But, in "Fall Out", the message is reversed!  You cannot think only
of yourself lest you become "Number 1".  You must strive to walk the
thin line between total conformity and total selfishness.

Having already read "The Hero with a Thousand Faces", I see an
interesting tie-in.  The hero is Number 6.  But what is the
significance of the number 6?  According to the Bible, it is the
number of Man.  And, since Number 6 is never named (with one
exception), his struggle can be thought of as an archetype, a
shining example of Man's struggle for wholeness.  As Campbell
explains, the myth of the hero is cyclical.  Myths begin and end in
similar circumstances.  Of course, the series ends literally as it
began.

Anyways, this should stimulate some discussion.  Be seeing you....

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
...!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 23:41:04 GMT
From: moss!hoqax!bicker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: ORBIT (Blakes 7)

I was watching my tape of the episode ORBIT from the series Blakes 7
(the episode in which Avon is offered the Tachion Funnel by
Agrorian) and it was up to the point where Avon and Vila returned to
Agrorian Lab with ORAC when my VCR switched off. Could someone who
knows how this episode ends please e-mail me the particulars?  Much
thanks.

bk
{ihnp4|clyde|moss}!{hoqaa|hoqax|hoqam}!bicker
ihnp4!terminus!bicker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 87 11:27:07 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Hitchcock & TZ episodes

The Hitchcock show was based on "The Magic Shop" by H.G. Wells.  The
Twilight Zone episode was based on "It's a Good Life" by Jerome
Bixby.  I doubt there was any attempt or thought to link the two
together in the minds of anyone involved with either show, although
this may be evidence that the programmer for the USA network both
has a sense of humor and is paying more attention to his/her job
than most programmers would bother to do.  Then again, it may just
be a (gasp!) weird coincidence.  (Doo doo doo doo Doo doo doo doo)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #370
Date:  4 Sep 87 1439-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #370
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 87 1439-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #370
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 370

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Caidin (11 msgs) &
                             Some Author Identifications

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 87 10:14:02 GMT
From: seismo!utai!csri.toronto.edu!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Ringing a bionic bell?

I've read all *four* of Martin Caidin's CYBORG novels, the original
and its three sequels.  The first is really good and the fourth has
an interesting idea -- using the bionic interface to hook up
directly to a space plane, so that Austin can pilot it with his mind
-- but the other two are fodder for the recycler.  I've also read
MAN-FAC, which is a variation on the CYBORG theme, although not
nearly as interesting.  His most-famous novel is MAROONED, which
tells the story of a Mercury capsule stranded in orbit (there is a
meta-humor reference to this book in, I believe CYBORG 4: Austin
mentions that the author of MAROONED is a friend of his ... ).
MAROONED was filmed some years later, with the story update to deal
with a Skylab crew stranded aboard their returning Apollo capsule.
Caidin perpetuates the story that the circa 1975 Apollo-Soyuz
orbital linkup was inspired by MAROONED, in which the Soviets aid in
the American rescue effort.  He's also written a lot of non-fiction,
the only title of which I can remember is a book about spaceflight
called PLANETFALL.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 09:54:43 GMT
From: seismo!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Ringing a bionic bell?

C78KCK@IRISHMVS <R. Allen Jervis> writes:
>I recently found a book entitled "Starbright" by Martin Caidin. I
>thought it was excellent!  I had always thought that his only novel
>was "Cyborg" (The novel that the Six-million Dollar man was
>supposedly based on.)  The 'About the Author' section said he was
>the author of over a hundred books so my question is has anyone
>read anything else by him, and was it worth seeking out?

Well, I just read Exit Earth a couple of weeks ago, and it looked a
lot like a book by someone being paid by the word, who had written
100 books.  I found it tedious to read (and I will put up with
almost anything, I read an SF novel a day or more when I can afford
that many at the used book shop; I have more that 1000 SF paperbacks
in this apartment), short of plot, pedestrian, and much too long
(638 pages, Baen Books), for the meager "end of the world" story he
had to tell.  The "science" was junk, yet it was written to be a
hard SF story.  I mean really: the solar system enters a dust cloud
and Bang! the sun overheats?  Sure, maybe in a couple of million
years, when the dust penetrates to where the nuclear reactions are
taking place.  Not in a few weeks!

Perhaps Caidin has done some good work, but with this as a sample,
I'm not going to go looking to find it.

Caveat Emptor!

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 03:05:00 GMT
From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Ringing a bionic bell?

Caidin's "Marrooned" is based upon the film, which in turn is based
upon the book "Marrooned in Orbit" by Piere Boulle, who also wrote
"Bridge over the River Kwai", "Trouble in Heaven" (which is about a
plot by God to regain the power he had before Jesus got so popular,
and features the Virgin Mary as President of France, truly an
amusing book), and the original "Planet of the Apes".

******Spoiler Warning******

In the book, the planet the astronauts go to is not earth, but a
close analogy (a blue, camel like beast they see is a good give
away), but when they at last return, they land in Paris, and are
shocked to see apes driving motorcars by the Eiffel Tower.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 02:33:05 GMT
From: gatech!gt-stratus!chen@RUTGERS.EDU (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: Books by Martin Caidin

20s1-s4@braggvax.arpa writes:
>     Stop the packets!!  One more comes to mind, a WWII dogfight
>epic.  The title escapes me, but I thought so much of the book at
>that time, that I bought a 1/72 scale model of a P-40 and painted
>it in the hero's colors.  The title may have been "Dogfight".

"The Last Dogfight."  About an American air squadron in the Pacific
and its Japanese counterpart in WWII.  Highly recommended.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 00:13:54 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai)
Subject: Martin Caidin (was: Ringing a bionic bell?)

kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
> C78KCK@IRISHMVS <R. Allen Jervis> writes:
>>based on.)  The 'About the Author' section said he was the author
>>of over a hundred books so my question is has anyone read anything
>>else by him, and was it worth seeking out?
>
> Perhaps Caidin has done some good work, but with this as a sample,
> I'm not going to go looking to find it.

   I have my suspicions about Martin Caidin writing "over a hundred
books".  However, I do know that Caidin wrote a book called
"Marooned" (I think) which some critics say is good.  It was made
into a movie too.  Now, I haven't read the book, nor seen the movie.
Any help concerning the contents and merits of the two will be
appreciated!

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-544-5349
UUCP:  {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
CSnet: hirai@swatsun.swarthmore.edu
ARPA:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 87 04:38:27 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Martin Caidin

From:   C78KCK%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu  (R. Allen Jervis)
> I recently found a book entitled "Starbright" by Martin Caidin...
> I had always thought that his only novel was "Cyborg" (The novel
> that the Six-million Dollar man was supposedly based on.)
>
> The 'About the Author' section said he was the author of over a
> hundred books so my question is has anyone read anything else by
> him, and was it worth seeking out?

As a guess, I'd say that over half of his books are non-fiction
about space, rocketry, and aviation, and a lot of his fiction is war
fiction. Not that he hasn't produced a fair amount of sf.

Aside from CYBORG, probably his most well-known work of sf is
MAROONED, upon which is based the film of the same title. He also
wrote the novelization of the film THE FINAL COUNTDOWN (in which the
USS Nimitz travels back in time to Pearl Harbor).  I've only read a
couple of others of his books, but based on those, I'd say that if
you enjoyed CYBORG, you'll probably enjoy just about anything of
his. And CYBORG has three sequels: OPERATION NUKE, HIGH CRYSTAL, and
the imaginatively-titled CYBORG IV. These have a somewhat
entertaining publishing history in paperback. After the SIX MILLION
DOLLAR MAN series became popular, Warner Books reissued CYBORG and
issued OPERATION NUKE. Sometime later, they started up a series of
six numbered "Six Million Dollar Man" books, four of which were
novelizations of tv episodes. The two that weren't were the last two
of Caidin's books, so, it turned out that "Six Million Dollar Man
#6" was titled CYBORG IV (well, *I* thought it was amusing).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 87 19:59:33 GMT
From: moss!codas!alberta!gordon@RUTGERS.EDU (Gordon Atwood)
Subject: Martin Caidin Book List & Correction to 'Marooned' Discussion

     Below is a list of all the Martin Caidin Novels that I am aware
of.  In the first column I have indicated certain information.  A
'*' means I have the book in my collection.  A '?' means I question
the titles existence, veracity, or simply have something interesting
to note.  A ' ' means the title was taken from a list supplied in my
copies of 'Jericho 52' or 'Killer Station' (The same applies for
those marked '?').

     If you have additional titles, alternate titles, etc., please
e-mail them to me.

     Please note the information I included for several of the
titles, in particular, The 'Cyborg' and 'Six Million Dollar Man'
series, and 'Marooned'.

Fiction Novels:

* Almost Midnight
  Anytime, Anywhere
* Aquarius Mission
  Cape, The
* Cyborg
* Cyborg #2:  Operation Nuke
? Cyborg #3
     (I have seen this titled 'High Crystal', however, my copy
     clearly indicates that that title is in the 'Six Million Dollar
     Man' series)
  Cyborg #4
* Deathmate
* Devil Take All
? Encounter Three           (See 'The Mendelov Conspiracy')
* Exit Earth                (Is a loose sequel to 'Four Came Back')
* Final Countdown, The
* Four Came Back
* God Machine, The
* Jericho 52
* Killer Station
? Last Countdown, The       (I think this might be a misprint of 'The
                            Final Countdown', anyone know for sure?)
* Last Dogfight, The
* Last Fathom, The
  Long Night, The
  Man Fac
* Marooned
     (Contrary to previous discussion on the net, Caidin DID write
     this first.  In 1963 he published the story, but it was about a
     GEMINI crew!  In 1964 the Motion Picture Rights were sold,
     which eventually contained an APOLLO crew.  Caidin re-released
     'Marooned', updating it to the movie version!)
  Maryjane Tonight at Angels Twelve
* Mendelov Conspiracy, The
     (Has recently been released under the title of 'Encounter Three')
* Messiah Stone, The
  No Man's World
  Six Million Dollar Man #1:  Wine, Women and Wars
  Six Million Dollar Man #2:  Solid Gold Kidnapping
* Six Million Dollar Man #2:  High Crystal
* Starbight
* Three Corners to Nowhere
* Whip
* Wingborn
* Zoboa

Selected other Books (As found in my copy of Jericho 52):
  (I presume these are non-fiction works, but who knows?).

  A Torch to the Enemy
  Air Force
  Astronauts, The
  Aviation & Space Medicine
  Barnstorming
  Black Thursday
  Boeing 707
  By Apollo to the Moon
  Countdown for Tomorrow
  Destination Mars
  Everything But the Flak
  First Flight Into Space
  Flight Manual for the Bf-108b
  Flight Manual for the Ju-52/Sm
  Flying
  Flying Forts
  Fork-tailed Devil, The
  Golden Wings
  Greatest Challenge, The
  Hydrospace
  I Am Eagle!
  It's Fun to Fly
  Jets, Rockets & Guided Missiles
  Kill Devil Hill
  Let's Go Flying
  Long Arm of America, The
  Long, Lonely Leap, The
  Man Into Space
  Man-in-Space Dictionary
  Messershmitt Me-109
  Mighty Hercules, The
  Mission, The
  New World for Men
  Night Hamburg Died, The
  Overture to Space
  Planetfall
  Power of Decision, The
  Ragged, Rugged Warriors, The
  Red Star in Space
  Rendezvous in Space
  Rockets Beyond the Earth
  Rockets & Missiles
  Saga of Iron Annie, The
  Samurai!
  Silken Angels, The
  Spaceport USA
  Test Pilot
  This is My Land
  Thunderbirds!
  Thunderbolt!
* Tigers are Burning, The      (This is certainly a historical novel)
  Vanguard!
  War for the Moon
  When War Comes
  Why Space?
  Winged Armada, The
  Worlds in Space
  Zero Fighter, The
  Zero!

  (etc.)

G.H.A.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 18:05:53 GMT
From: YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Martin Caidin Book List & Correction to 'Marooned'
Subject: Discussion

gordon@alberta.UUCP (Gordon Atwood) says:
>Selected other Books (As found in my copy of Jericho 52):
>  (I presume these are non-fiction works, but who knows?).
>
>* Tigers are Burning, The      (This is certainly a historical novel)

Actually, this is a non-fiction history of the battle of Kursk (WW
II - Eastern Front)

Ben Yalow
City University of New York
BITNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 18:57:21 GMT
From: rose@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu (Dan Rose)
Subject: Re: Corrected 'Marooned' Discussion

gordon@alberta.UUCP (Gordon Atwood) writes:
>* Marooned
>     (Contrary to previous discussion on the net, Caidin DID write
>     this first.  In 1963 he published the story, but it was about
>     a GEMINI crew!  In 1964 the Motion Picture Rights were sold,
>     which eventually contained an APOLLO crew.  Caidin re-released
>     'Marooned', updating it to the movie version!)

I read this when I was a kid.  I think it was about a *Mercury*
flight.  I vaguely remember stuff about how the Air Force space
program was dismantled, etc.  Gemini missions had two crew members
and practiced docking.  In the original Marooned, there was only one
crew member and they had to figure out how to dock because they'd
never done it before.  I'm not even sure if Project Gemini had been
conceived in 1963.

Dan Rose
rose@beowulf.UCSD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 15:55:46 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!utcsri!tom@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: Martin Caidin Book List & Correction to 'Marooned'
Subject: Discussion

Caidin wrote neither SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN: WINE, WOMEN, AND WAR
(singular, by the way) nor SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN: SOLID GOLD
KIDNAPPING.  Rather, these are novelizations of the second and third
SMDM TV movies, written by people other than Caidin.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 19:20:57 GMT
From: cbmvax!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Corrected 'Marooned' Discussion

The original describes one "extra" Mercury mission (MA-10)
undertaken because the Russians weren't being very open about the
results of long-term (several days) medicals effects of
weightlessness.  After a retro-fire failure, the rescue is effected
by quickly launching a Gemini capsule with a single crew member.
There was a conviently launch-ready unmanned Gemini on the pad and a
complete Gemini capsule undergoing environmental testing.

The book is still fairly good suspense reading, with reasonable
attention to technical detail, despite the passage of time and other
books on the same subject.  It is kind of hard to see NASA actually
doing such a quick switch.  Now days they'd still be involved in a
blame-passing session months after the astronaut ran out of air.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 14:33:03 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Some author identifications

From:   evan@CSLI.Stanford.EDU  (Evan Kirshenbaum)
> On a similar subject, another book I got through SBS was called
> Stranger_From_the_Depths (or Deep), and was a great juvenile about
> an extinct undersea civilization.  My copy is long gone, but I'd
> be interested in getting a pointer to another.  I don't remember
> the author, but I don't believe that it's anyone I've heard of
> since.

Well, there's a book entitled STRANGER FROM THE DEPTHS by Gerry
Turner.

From:   speedy!chavey   (Darrah Chavey)

> (The something), the Miners, and the Shree; author?

THE MONITOR, THE MINERS, AND THE SHREE by Lee Killough.

From:   vdsvax!barnett  (Bruce G. Barnett)

> What about sex and plants! I'm talking about "The Pollinators of
> Eden" by Christopher Boyd (I think)...

John Boyd (real name: Boyd Upchurch).

> What ever happened to the author? He had a slew of books, then
> nothing.

Good question. I can't think of anything he's done in the last 10
years. I don't recall hearing that he died. He's in his late 60's
now, though.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #371
Date:  4 Sep 87 1505-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #371
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 87 1505-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #371
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 371

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Card (4 msgs) &
                              Davies & A Title Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 August 1987 19:24:22 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Speaker For The Dead

A friend of mine (who is not a netter) sent me the following review
of _Speaker For The Dead_.  Since he was interested in other
peoples' reactions to this book, I'm passing this along to
SF-LOVERS.  Warning: spoilers abound!

Skaftafell, Icyland

   The book is named _Speaker for the Dead_, but I will refer to it
simply as _Dead_.  The author, Orson Scott Card (Os Cardos), is a
man who, though a lapsed Mormon, is still capable of being slightly
pudgy, growing a moustache, and living in Utah.
   We all know that Os Cardos is a very good writer, despite his
moustache.  Even the macios (slimy tree worms) know this.  His
previous book, _Ender's Game_, is top-notch fiction.  Not even the
bastardos (bastards) can deny this.  But what of this _Dead_ book?
Is it the work of a man doomed to sainthood?  Is it the New
Testament of the New Age?  Or is it just something written by a
slightly pudgy man in Utah?
   This book, _Dead_, is proof that Os Cardos can be (and therefore,
is) a boring young fart.  I do not say this to make you angry like a
piggy wife, or to make you cry like a dying Xenologer.  I Speak only
the _truth_ (Os Truthos), without padding or insulation or other
unsightly bulges.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the oven.
When I am through you will probably hate me, or at least think of me
as your father (which I probably am), but for now it's just the
facts, ma'am.  If the truth hurts, wear it.
   The book is set up wonderfully.  The characters are well drawn
and believable -- up to a point, which I'll get to soon.  The
settings of Trondheim and Lusitania (the latter lifted directly from
Os Cardos' missionary years in Brazil) are nicely done.  The story
itself was superb up to about one-third of the way through.  Action,
suspense, mystery -- dozens of threads woven together expertly.
Many features in the book are brilliantly conceived: details of
piggy culture, tensions between the various powers in Lusitanian
society, the internal dynamics of the family of Os Venerados.  He's
the only fiction writer I can think of offhand who handles spiritual
matters in an entirely realistic way.
   Things started falling apart for me during Ender's second day on
Lusitania.  I could accept -- barely -- the miracles he brought
about during his first day with Novinha's children.  The right
person at the right time -- a catalyst.  But the miraculous healing
continued, barely faltering, until after only a few days there's
hardly a sign of bitterness.  It's simply impossible.
   I'm a great believer in the ability of human beings to change,
even to utterly transform themselves.  But it doesn't happen, can't
happen, that seven individual people (Novinha & Co.) simultaneously
are healed, even when they are one blood and many of their wounds
are identical.
   This is assuming, of course, that they want to be healed in the
first place.  Even Christ generally waited until people came up to
him and said the Believed before healing came about.  That is, they
consciously accepted, in fact invited, his act.  So we're to believe
that Ender, half-invited by three people, can possibly overcome the
psychological walls erected by each of the seven?
   Os Cardos also greatly overestimates the esteem people have for
the truth.  First off, he thinks they're going to recognize it just
because someone tells it to them straight out.  Then he thinks that,
having recognized it, they're bound to accept it, being honest,
rational souls deep down.  Then he thinks it's going to be a healing
thing.  I'm sorry to disagree with such an optimistic view of
humanity, but it just ain't so.  Sometimes, yes, of course.  But
people -- and ramen -- transform themselves too quickly, too often,
too consistently in _Dead_.
   Are we to believe that the piggies change their whole view of
life (i.e., give up expansion by conquest) in just a few hours of
talking to Ender?  What about the people of Milagre, the hundreds of
man-in-the-street types of whom we see _nothing_?  (Not a face, not
a name, not a word as far as I can recall.)  One evening they hear
Marcao's death spoken, their lives basically unchanged, and the next
day they're to accept the idea that they're in open rebellion with
the Hundred Worlds, and have entered into a covenant with the
piggies?  The piggies who (we've been told) they fear and hate
because of the beloved Libo's death?  Is Mayer Bosquinha in such
total control (even with the Bishop's help) that this could happen?
Look at it from a purely practical point of view -- let's say they
go along with the rebellion part of it because they don't want to
leave the planet.  Why should they help the piggies too, what's in
it for the man-in-the-street?  Even before Ender has written _The
Life of Human_, Os Cardos tells us of "many workmen who had brought
technological miracles to the piggies."  Pretty sweet of them, huh?
   What about Jane?  Nifty concept, likeable gal, quick technique
for the author to get around some laborious story-telling tasks.
Takes Val's place as someone to bounce thoughts off of.  Allows the
author to interject humorous comments with the computer's voice.
Great.  But she's too powerful.  He eventually has to get her out of
the story, but you know she's still there, behind the scenes.  You
know things can't go too terribly wrong with her there.  Os Cardos
even tells us that she sees why Pipo and Libo died, sees that Ender
could go the same way, but will hold back to see how he does on his
own.  So one major cause of suspense is eliminated: Ender is safe.
Big Sister is watching.
   Speaking of suspense, did you notice that there's practically
none in the second half of the book?  Almost every event is
foreshadowed, then once it occurs, or at least we know it's about to
occur, we spend endless pages watching people react to it.  We know
about the coming Lusitanian Secession before any of the characters.
We know about Novinha cheating on hubby, etc., before the children,
who then react with tedious predictability.  We know Pipo and Libo
weren't murdered, that the piggies are A-OK.  Of course we know all
about Ender's past, so isn't it terribly tiresome to have his past
discovered about half a dozen times by various characters throughout
the story?  And worse, these discoveries do nothing to advance the
plot, they're just there to fill each character's vacuum of
knowledge.
   Turn at random to pages in the second half of the book.  Read
scattered paragraphs, and see how much information is new compared
to what you've already guessed or been told outright.  WE KNOW TOO
MUCH.  For me, the second half of _Dead_ was like watching a play
where you know the ending, and all the actors read their lines in a
monotone.
   Didn't you know Novinha was going to settle happily with Ender?
Didn't you know the problems with the piggies were simple
misunderstandings?  Didn't you know everything would turn out, in
general, just peachy-keen?  I did, and far too soon.  So I started
to disbelieve the story, because I wasn't emotionally and
intellectually involved.  Moments that were obviously supposed to be
meaningful were empty for me.
   More problems: Ender is just too damn wise.  No human has ever
been that good at getting inside people, and so quickly, too.  Ender
refers to himself as a closet Catholic and Bishop Peregrino as a
lapsed Mormon.  Does anyone recall a previous reference to the Mormon
part, or think why it was worth including the comment?  What's so
bad about having your ansible cut off?  Surely some worlds would be
founded specifically with the idea of cutting themselves off from
the rest of mankind.  Surely others, after run-ins with Starways
Congress, would say to hell with it and opt for complete
independence.  Reading the book, you'd think Demosthenes and the
original Speaker for the Dead were the only intellectual forces of
interest for 3000 years of human history.  People are still in awe
of _The Hive Queen and the Hegemon_, they still pore over
Demosthenes' works.  Out of the billions or trillions of other
humans alive at any point over 3000 years, weren't there others of
talent, of genius?  Well, San Angelo, of course.  And I admit that
the Children of the Mind of Christ, the organization, the
philosophy, is really well conceived by Os Cardos.  But remember,
San Angelo might never have made it if the great Ender hadn't Spoken
his death.
   I guess I've gone on enough.  I was hoping for something to equal
or surpass _Ender's Game_.  _Dead_ is certainly more ambitious,
wider in scope, and I was really _expecting_, after I saw how it
started, that this was going to be the best book I'd read in years.
I would like to see the comments of other readers; I can't believe
I'm the only one to feel disappointed.  What really gets to me is
that he's obviously got the talent, but he lets you down
unexpectedly, defeat from the jaws of victory.  It makes me want to
kick him.
   I'm afraid I could go on and on, but it's 12:30 a.m. and daylight
is fading.  I hope _The Anubis Gates_ is as good as advertised.  I
need a good read.
**end of fowarded message**

By the way, I enjoyed _Speaker_, but I'll throw in my two cents
later, if at all.  I do have one somewhat related request: does
anyone know how to subscribe to (or otherwise obtain) Card's review
magazine, _Short Form_?  I submitted this query earlier, but due to
an accounting problem on our computer, followed by a trip to England
(to visit the above friend), my subscription to SF-LOVERS lapsed for
about 6 weeks.  Incidentally, _The Anubis Gates_ is still in print
over there.

Thanks in advance,

Paul R. Pudaite

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 87 12:25:37 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Card's WYRMS

There's been a lot of discussion on the net about Orson Scott Card's
books, most recently emphasizing SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. However, I
just ran across one in the library, WYRMS (Arbor House, 1987, 263
pages, hardback, ISBN: 0-87795-894-7), which I do not recall having
ever been mentioned here. Anybody have any comments on it? Is it
just so new that few people have seen it yet, or is it unworthy of
comment and mediocre, really good, or what? I checked it out, and
will post my impressions after reading it.

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 87 22:00:02 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Card's WYRMS

>There's been a lot of discussion on the net about Orson Scott
>Card's books, most recently emphasizing SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD.
>However, I just ran across one in the library, WYRMS (Arbor House,
>1987, 263 pages, hardback, ISBN: 0-87795-894-7), which I do not
>recall having ever been mentioned here. Anybody have any comments
>on it?

I finished it when it came out.  It's a minor work by a major
author.  Nothing really wrong, nothing very special. It's a Fantasy
in wolves clothing, since Card tries to wrap all his mumbo-jumbo in
a gilding of genetics and science (not entirely successfully). It is
also in many ways an homage to Gene Wolfe and the Urth stories,
although Card doesn't have the techniques of language to really do
Urth justice.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 87 8:52:53 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Card's WYRMS

Well, I finished WYRMS, and had promised to post comments about it.
I did enjoy it, and it is definitely good; I don't think it is as
good as ENDER'S GAME, but, then, few things could be... :-)

It is a sort of picaresque novel, the main part being an adventurous
journey. I don't want to go into detail and give spoilers, but I
think it might be of particular interest to those who have recently
been commenting on the validity or quality of alien viewpoints as
portrayed in SF. This book uses a particular plot device to present
alien and human viewpoints melded together, and the aliens are
actually very human in quite a basic way...

Anyhow, it is certainly worth reading. The one aspect of it that sat
a bit off with me is that the protagonist is supposedly a teenage
girl, and actually is quite adult in every action; the book explains
this by her training (not a spoiler; this is how it begins), but
that seems a bit too pat to me. I would have been happier if she had
been described as being 5 years older or so...

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 02:03:47 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: THE LAST ELECTION

                  THE LAST ELECTION by Pete Davies
          Vintage Contemporaries, 1986, ISBN 0-394-74702-X
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This is a non-cyberpunk novel or, rather, a non-cyber punk
novel.  The England of the future (1990s would be my guess) is
definitely punk, but the technological revolution that Gibson et al
portray has bypassed England, and pretty much everyone else.
Instead, London is a decaying city, with crumbling buildings,
pot-holed streets, thousands of homeless living in garbage heaps,
and 24-hour-a-day televised snooker matches to keep the populace
happy.  All this is overseen by "Nanny," who from the description is
a aging, possibly senile, version of Margaret Thatcher and the
leader of the "Money Party."  On top of everything else, the "Last
Election" is coming up.

     Cyberpunk novels postulate a society of great technology, where
many, perhaps even most, live in comfort.  Though the characters
portrayed in them are the lower strata, we do get a glimpse of the
better life that most people lead.  In THE LAST ELECTION, few people
are at that level.  The mass of people are unemployed, kept on the
dole and pacified with television.  People who do manage to drag
themselves away from snooker go to state-run discos where they can
get loud music, drinks, and drugs.  Naturally, there is more to the
plot than this.  There are the antics of Wally Wasted, top snooker
commentator, and Thor Thunders, the candidate of the People Party.
There is the whole question of what the Money Party's plans really
are, where the new drugs that are circulating at the discos are
coming from, and whether there is any hope for the future.

     THE LAST ELECTION is an engrossing book.  It is, however,
extremely depressing.  The blurb compares it to 1984, A CLOCKWORK
ORANGE, BRAZIL, and BLADE RUNNER.  Of the four, it is most like the
vision of the recent film of 1984, that of a Britain slowly falling
apart while everyone tries to pretend that everything is fine.  The
solutions held out by Nanny are dishonest in much the same way as
Big Brother's are--they are solutions, true, but they are not what
they appear to be.  As long as you're not the type who gets
suicidally depressed by the shape the world is likely to be in ten
years, I would recommend this book.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun 30 Aug 87 12:38:44-PDT
From: Steve Dennett <DENNETT@sri-nic.arpa>
Subject: Title Request

A friend and I were discussing childhood SF/Fantasy books, and he
mentioned one he'd been trying to recall for years.  I'll be
wonderfully amazed if anyone knows what it is...

It is a childrens/young adult book.  The general plot is a group of
kids (?)  on a journey/quest.  They are accompanied by something
called the "fretful porpentine".  Near the end, there is a birthday
party which is spoiled when griffins swoop down and eat both the
cake and the candles.

Sound familiar to anyone???

Steve
dennett@sri-nic.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #372
Date:  4 Sep 87 1521-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #372
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Sep 87 1521-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #372
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 4 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 372

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 87 17:17:00 GMT
From: william@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

Just in case the WV phonebook theory hasnt been shot down enough,
were there any phonebooks there before the war?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 18:44:19 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Where is The Green Dragon Inn?

cpf@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Courtenay Footman) writes:
> galloway@venera.isi.edu (Tom Galloway) writes:
> >19. Short cuts make long delays, but what make longer?
> Inns, in particular, the Green Dragon.

In which story is this Green Dragon Inn?  I know of the (now
demolished) Green Dragon Inn in colonial Boston, where the Sons of
Liberty would meet.  Is there any relation between the two?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard,moss,seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 87 17:27:04 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!logico!slovax!flak@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan Flak)
Subject: Re: Where is The Green Dragon Inn?

>> >19. Short cuts make long delays, but what make longer?
>> Inns, in particular, the Green Dragon.
> In which story is this Green Dragon Inn?  I know of the (now
> demolished) Green Dragon Inn in colonial Boston, where the Sons of
> Liberty would meet.  Is there any relation between the two?

The story LOTR

The Green Dragon Inn was in Bywater.

However, it wasn't the inn referred to in the quote.  The quote was
said by Frodo to Sam (1) about the "Floating Log" Inn in
Eastfarthing.  (exact burg, unremembered here). I believe the
circumstances was when Frodo informed the group about his decision
to take a short cut through the woods to Bree.

(1) or Pippen, or maybe both. Sam, at any rate had "misgivings".

Dan Flak
R & D Associates
3625 Perkins Lane SW
Tacoma,Wa 98499
206-581-1322
{psivax,ism780}!logico!slovax!flak
{hplsla,uw-beaver}!tikal!slovax!flak

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 87 21:55:49 GMT
From: cpf@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: Where is The Green Dragon Inn?

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu writes:
>In which story is this Green Dragon Inn?  I know of the (now
>demolished) Green Dragon Inn in colonial Boston, where the Sons of
>Liberty would meet.  Is there any relation between the two?

I got confused.  The Green Dragon is in Bywater; I meant to say the
Golden Perch, which is in Stock.  This will teach me (again) not to
post without checking.  (Both inns are in the Shire, of course.)

I sincerely doubt that there is any connection between the two
"Golden Dragon"'s.  I also sincerely doubt that anyone wants a
repeat of the West Virginia telephone book discussion.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 87 11:40:46 EDT
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: Tolkien hobbit surnames

As Popeye once said, "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands
no more!"

I've waited for someone else to post what I believe is the source
for the West Virginia source for hobbit names rumor, but no one else
has, so here goes:

Several years ago, in William Safire's weekly "On Language" column
in the New York Times Sunday Magazine, the author described driving
through West Virginia once and noticing interesting and amusing
names that appeared on road signs, such as Butterbur and Proudfoot
(last names of people attached to business establishments
advertising on billboards) and (I believe) Bucklebury (a place
name).  He idly wondered if somehow, in some weird chain of events
(I don't remember if a phone book was mentioned as a possibility),
Tolkien might have heard about West Virginia names, or if there were
similar names somewhere in Great Britain.  *AT NO TIME* was this
offered as more than "what a funny coincidence; I wonder if
somehow..." speculation.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific about the date of the article.
I'm not even sure if it was written by Safire himself, or one of the
not infrequent guest columnists.  If someone really cares, they can
track it down via the Index to the New York Times, available in
finer libraries everywhere.

Unless someone knows some other source for the rumor, I nominate
this article.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 16:27:15 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: The Road to Middle Earth

I just have read what I consider the most interesting book of
Tolkien criticism I have encountered.  It is "The Road to Middle
Earth" by T.A. Shippey.  Shippey is a philologist and was one of
Tolkien's colleagues and students.  (He also appeared on the first
installment of the PBS show "The Story of English".)  The book
considers Tolkien's works (including Silmarillion and Unfinished
Tales) from the linguistic perspective.  While other critics have
considered the philologic basis of Tolkien to be an interesting
quirk (Lin Carter called it "Tolkien's scholarly hobby"), Shippey
feels that the linguistics form a core part of what Tolkien is all
about.  This work is not for the unscholarly, but for those who have
some interest in linguistics, it will illuminate many new aspects of
Tolkien.  Unfortunately, the book (published in 1983) went out of
print almost instantly, so you have to visit your library to get it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 87 21:33:23 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Scotland and Britain

>  Too, while I would be flattered by the notion, I don't know any
>Bagginses, or Tooks (old or otherwise) or even
>Sackville-Bagginses...  I would think that the more originally
>British-settled areas of the East coast ... would furnish more
>approximate names than the predominately Scotch...

Having been told by a bank in Southern California that they don't
change Scots pounds, only British ones, and then seeing this, I'm
beginning to wonder exactly when Scotland was ejected from Britain.
So, just in case there is any doubt in anybody's mind: Scotland and
England are both parts of Britain.  I suspect that the poster meant
"English-settled", not "British-settled."

And to my compatriots in Scotland: no, this is not a joke.  Any more
than is the number of telephone callers who have to be told how to
pronounce "Milne".

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 87 21:49:28 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

>Sideline. My favorite theme is of the Elves going to the Land of
>the Uttermost West. In Irish and Greek(!) mythology, a race of
>fair, beautiful and graceful people, known as the Tuatha de Danaan
>migrated across Greece and Europe to flee to the Westernmost
>(known) islands.  These islands were (of course) Ireland and
>Britain (and the other littler islands).  I don't know Gaelic, but
>the name Tuatha de Danaan refers to the people mentioned as being
>eternally young.

I don't know to what language "Tuatha de Danaan" is supposed to
belong, but I'll swear it isn't the Scots Gaelic, and not likely
Irish Gaelic either.  There is a name of related meaning in
Hebridean folksongs at least: Tir-nan-og, meaning, I'm told, "land
of the ever-young"; it's described as the Celtic Heaven, and is
supposed to lie far to the west.

But the construction of "Tuatha de Danaan" looks as if "de" means
"of", which is a feature of, at least, Romance languages.  If it
were the Gaelic, the preposition would be "na" or "nan".  Though I
don't yet know all the Gaelic prepositions, the ones I do know
include nothing like "de".

So: does anybody know from what language this name actually comes?

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 87 22:07:55 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

>Faramir, and many other people of Gondor, had elvish names because
>their culture was heavily influenced by the elvish culture (this is
>stated quite clearly in the books).

More than just influenced: the language of the Dunedain, and hence
of Gondor and Arnor, was Sindarin.  It was in fact the language they
acquired when the Valar raised Numenor for them, and it lasted for
centuries before dissident influences, including Sauron's, moved the
majority toward the language they called Adunaic.  The culmination
of this influence, of course, was the attempt to land on the Undying
Lands, and the resulting destruction of Numenor.  The only escapes
of Numenor were the Faithful, who still maintained Sindarin as their
language, and it therefore became the language of Gondor (Sindarin
for "stone-land") and Arnor (Sind.  for "great-land", I think).

At the time of the War of the Ring, it seems to me that both the
Common Tongue and Sindarin were in daily use in Gondor: Pippin was
addressed in the Common Tongue while there, though in a more
graceful fashion than his own; but among themselves, the Dunedain
referred to him as "Ernil i Periannath", or "Prince of the
Halflings".  Nor can I recall a single name from Minas Tirith which
was not Sindarin, or mixed Sindarin and Quenya.

I have just remembered something that has long puzzled me: there
exist at least two Elvish words for "tower": "minas" and "barad".
Does anybody know the reason for this?  Does it simply turn out that
Sindarin his two words for "tower" (and for "hill", for that matter:
"amon" and "dol")?  Or is there some more interesting derivation
here?

Does anybody know?

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 87 22:49:29 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: tolkien/apartheid

> I fail to see any relationship between apartheid and Tolkiens
>characters.  It has been a long time since my last reading of "Lord
>of the Rings", but I got the impression he was attempting to draw
>an analogy to the spectrum of light.  White, contains all possible
>colors and therefore is greater in power than any other.

I must say that I was quite startled when I saw the first posting
suggesting such a connection.  My recent history is poor, but I know
apartheid didn't exist when Tolkien was born, I doubt if it existed
when he moved to England, and I don't think it existed at the time
Lord of the Rings was written.  Verification?  Denial?  Certainly it
seems an appalling thing to be associated with a story whose points,
in the end, are heroism, sacrifice, and hope.

I think Saruman felt that way about white, but his logic did not
impress Gandalf.  However, I think it can hardly be stated too often
that Tolkien desired to draw no analogies to anything.  Which again
tends to deny any connections with apartheid.

After my first few readings of Lord of the Rings, I found I wanted
to be reassured it didn't fall back on the simplification that
black=evil, white=good -- nothing racial involved, as I was a bit
young at the time to know such problems existed, but I would have
been very disappointed if it relied on black hats and white hats.

So, is white always associated with good?  Well, though many things
of Mordor are black, or at least dark, some at least are white or
pale: the horrible flowers in Imlad Morgul are white; the corpse
lights in the Dead Marshes are white (or pale); and, as I remembered
only a little while ago, the Nazgul, of all things, are white when
seen while wearing the Ring.  Only their cloaks and horses are
black.

What about black?  The standard of Elendil is black (sable,
actually, but close enough, I think).  The livery of the Citadel of
Minas Tirith is black.  Many of Rohan's most beautiful horses are
black (and the Orcs steal them).  But most of all, what is that
almost all the Elves hold dear?  The night sky, with its stars.  In
fact, I believe that their name for themselves, the Eldar, derives
from "People of the stars" -- the stars that were the first things
they saw when they awoke at Cuivienen, when the First Age was young.
So the dark, which is horrible and threatening in Mordor, is
beautiful and dear in Elvish lands.

As for Orcs and trolls: there were many tribes of them, of varying
shapes and colours.  Some, not surprisingly, were black, but it was
most definitely not the rule among them.

So I am now quite satisfied that there is no symbolism intended in
the appearances of black and white in Lord of the Rings.  Counter
arguments, anybody?

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 07:28:21 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

A. Milne writes:
>I have just remembered something that has long puzzled me: there
>exist at least two Elvish words for "tower": "minas" and "barad".
>Does anybody know the reason for this?  Does it simply turn out
>that Sindarin his two words for "tower" (and for "hill", for that
>matter: "amon" and "dol")?  Or is there some more interesting
>derivation here?

Look at the appendix to Quenta Silmarillion.

dol: 'head' in Lo'rindol; often applied to hills and mountains, as
   in Dol Guldur, Dolmed, Mindolluin ....

amon: 'hill', a Sindarin word occurring as the first element of many
   names; plural emyn in Emyn Beraid.

Don't know about Minas/Barad, but it looks like Minas may be Quenya,
not Sindarin. Maybe that's the difference.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
{rutgers,amdahl}!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 87 14:09:51 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!mcvax!prle1!nvpna1!collins@RUTGERS.ED
From: U (Donie Collins)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>

>There is a name of related meaning in Hebridean folksongs at least:
>Tir-nan-og, meaning, I'm told, "land of the ever-young"; it's
>described as the Celtic Heaven, and is supposed to lie far to the
>west.
             _
It's Tir-na-nog !

>But the construction of "Tuatha de Danaan" looks as if "de" means
>"of", which is a feature of, at least, Romance languages.  If it
>were the Gaelic, the preposition would be "na" or "nan".  Though I
>don't yet know all the Gaelic prepositions, the ones I do know
>include nothing like "de".
>
>So: does anybody know from what language this name actually comes?

Sorry but this IS Gaelic.
                         _ _ The correct title is Tuatha De Dannan
where Tuatha means tribe, De is the feminine of the Gaelic word for
God thus Goddess, and Dannan is the Gaelic name for the ancient
Celtic Goddess Danu.  Tuatha De Dannan = People/Tribe of the Goddess
Danu.

The Tuatha De Dannan were a supposedly divine race which inhabited
Ireland before the coming of the Celts. They are decendants of the
tribes of the God Nemed who were driven from Ireland by the Formor.
One of the tribes of Nemed settled in the area of Greece and even
had a hand in the battle of Troy before returning to Ireland in a
fleet of flying ships.

For reference see "The Book of Conquests" and "The Silver Arm" by
Jim Fitzpatrick.

 _           _
Donal O'Coileain.
..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!collins

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 13:53:07 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: tolkien/apartheid

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>So I am now quite satisfied that there is no symbolism intended in
>the appearances of black and white in Lord of the Rings.  Counter
>arguments, anybody?

I would not go quite so far as to say that the symbols of
evil=black, good=white are absent in LOTR.  These symbols pervade
our culture and do not originate in the skin color of races of men.
As a product of our culture, the avoidance of such symbols in LOTR
would be notable in itself.  I agree with you that LOTR has nothing
to say about the inherent goodness or evil of any extant races on
this world, other than what it says about men in general.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #373
Date:  8 Sep 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #373
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #373
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 373

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anvil (2 msgs) & Attanasio & Bisson &
                   Brin (5 msgs) & Brooks & Craig Harrison &
                   Crowley (2 msgs) & Harrison & Rucker

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 18:08:33 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Christopher Anvil

From:   PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
> Does anyone have pointers to any of Christopher Anvil's work?  I
> just read _The King's Legions_ in Asimov's SF series titled _Tin
> Stars_ and loved it.  Did he write more stories in this setting?

"The King's Legion", along with "Strangers to Paradise" and "The
Dukes of Desire", formed the novel STRANGERS IN PARADISE, which,
unfortunately, has been out of print since the early 70's. Another
novel featuring Vaughn Roberts, WARLORD'S WORLD, was published in
the mid-70's and has been o.o.p. since. Vaughn Roberts and the
Interstellar Patrol have also appeared in a number of uncollected
stories, all of which appeared in ANALOG. He also wrote a number of
smaller series, most of which are tied to the IP series in one
larger universe.

Other books of his are PANDORA'S PLANET, expanded from a novelette
and part of a series with four other, uncollected, stories; THE DAY
THE MACHINES STOPPED, also part of a small series (three other short
stories) not apparently connected to the other series; and THE
STEEL, THE MIST, AND THE BLAZING SUN. All three of these are (long,
in the first two cases) out of print.

As far as short stories go, he's got about 120 all together,
including about one dozen that appeared in the mystery magazines.

From:   dant@tekla.tek.com      (Dan Tilque)
> Pandora's Planet
>   someone once told me that there's a sequel to this one, but I
>   haven't been able to find it.

Only four novelettes.

> The Steel, The Mist, and the Blazing Sun Probably the weakest of
> the bunch, some references in it made me feel that it was a sequel
> to another book.

Nope. Not that I know of. It might be connected to some short
stories I haven't read, but it isn't connected to any other novels.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 87 16:35:34 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Christopher Anvil

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> From: dant@tekla.tek.com      (Dan Tilque)
>> The Steel, The Mist, and the Blazing Sun Probably the weakest of
>> the bunch, some references in it made me feel that it was a
>> sequel to another book.
>
>Nope. Not that I know of. It might be connected to some short
>stories I haven't read, but it isn't connected to any other novels.

 As I mentioned in a previous article, "what has gone before" was
contained in "Ideology Counts", published in (of course) Analog.
Here the main characters were introduced, and we saw Arakal and his
coalition drive the Russians from North America. I do not understand
why all this was not included in the book.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 87 13:01:42 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!mcvax!prle1!nvpna1!amphelan@RUTGERS.E
From: DU (Cathal Phelan)
Subject: Radix by Attanasio

   I have just re-read the book 'Radix' by A.A. Attanasio, I am left
with the same feeling that I had when I first read it , namely
'mixed'. The story and ideas are definitely different yet his
writing style can hardly be described as flowing. The book is choked
with language. Some books beg you to read on, 'Radix' does not.
Attanasio stiffles the readers progress and so makes the book seem
longer.
   What do the other NetLanders think of Attanasio, if one is to
believe the credits attributed him on the book cover he must be the
best thing since sliced bread, but is he ??  I think not !!!!
However , 'Radix' does have originality and intrigues the reader
into overlooking the written style. I enjoyed it, but found that
Attanasio's M.A. in linguistics got in the way ( a little) of a good
story.
   Finally since I found it nearly impossible to find 'Radix' in the
first place , I wonder does anyone know if Attanasio has got around
to writing anymore , and what is it like ??? ( And where can I get
the book(s) - if it's worth it ! ).


Cathal G. Phelan
Philips Natuurkundig Laboratorium
Eindhoven, The Netherlands.
..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!amphelan

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 04:15:12 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: TALKING MAN, by Terry Bisson

  A recommendation. Terry Bisson's second novel, TALKING MAN, is out
in paperback. Do yourself a favor and read it. TALKING MAN is a
contemporary fantasy - that is, it has no dragons, elves, furry-toed
folks, wiz-

  Oops. Well, it *does* have a wizard. More like a god, actually,
Talking Man is the wizard who created the world, then fell in love
with his creation.  He runs a junkyard on a hillside in Kentucky;
his taciturnity has earned him his name from his neighbors. Talking
Man's disappearance at the hands of his lover/sister/nemesis Dgene
leads to a pursuit by his daughter, Crystal, and her boyfriend,
William Hendricks Tilden Williams, which starts off in a beautifully
described "normal" Kentucky and ends up in a *very* different place,
indeed.

  The book is about Crystal and Williams, growing up. It is also
about the hidden beauty of junkyards, and cars, and even farm
machinery. (Point of reference: when not under this book's spell, I
consider cars at best a necessary evil and at worst a royal pain.
Bisson can overcome that.) You will learn about growing tobacco
plants and you will see the unforgetable triple bridge across the
vast Mississippi Canyon . . . You will have a good time.

  In this book, as in his first (a science fiction novel called
WYRLDMAKER), Bisson displays strikingly originality. Were it not for
the lurking Wolfe, TALKING MAN just might have been 1986's best
fantasy. Give it a try.

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
U. Texas Astronomy Dept
Austin

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 87 03:15:57 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Religion of the galactics, Progenitors *spoiler Startide
Subject: Rising*

One thing I have not seen mentioned (aren't NEWS black-outs FUN?!
:-< ) is the very Messianic nature of the Progenitors "worship".
The Progenitors' imminent return and the reverence toward this
mysterious, possibly extinct race, the variety of the Galactics'
always self-righteous interpretations of the Progenitors'
"commandments" remind me very much of Christianity.  This might be
another explanation of the fanatical Galactics' dislike of the
Wolflings -- they are not "saved" ;-)...

BTW, did Brin ever mention who uplifted the non-oxygen breathers?

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 87 21:15:18 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Sequels

allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>I'd almost rather see Brin show off more of his imagination in a
>new book than continue the STARTIDE RISING series.

I'd rather see him *finish* the series.  With the next book.  *Then*
he can go on to something else.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 87 10:19:47 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Progenitors

Oleg Kiselev writes:
>BTW, did Brin ever mention who uplifted the non-oxygen breathers?

Nope.  We are left to speculate that they had their own Progenitors.
Thus there are three (at least) species of Progenitors:
Oxygen-breathing, Hydrogen-breathing and Plasma-breathing.  (How the
Plasma-breathers get from star to star is an exercise left to the
student).  Machine intelligence is thought to have been built by
Oxygen breathers, and I don't think he mentions any other type
intelligence.

Of course, we can always speculate on the possibility of some
Meta-Progenitor...

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 87 00:42:41 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Progenitors

Dan Tilque:
>Thus there are three (at least) species of Progenitors:
>Oxygen-breathing, Hydrogen-breathing and Plasma-breathing.

Oh, that's another interesting subject!  I forgot the "Solarians".
However, as with hydrogen-breathers (or was it methane?), I do not
recall Solarians' progenitors being mentioned.  They themselves were
billed as Humans' long-lost progenitors by the Fanatics, until
Sundiver's excursion had shown otherwise.

So, there are multiple "cold" races and (potentially) "hot" races
that do not fit into the Galactics' "Original Uplift" doctrene.  The
"heretical" aspect of the very fact such races exist may be a reason
why (as The Uplift War has mentioned) Galactics' prefer to "forget"
the fact that the "cold" races existed at all.

>Of course, we can always speculate on the possibility of some
>Meta-Progenitor...

That would be amusing... But so far there has been no indication
that Brin will go that way.

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 87 16:23:20 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Progenitors

>Thus there are three (at least) species of Progenitors:
>Oxygen-breathing, Hydrogen-breathing and Plasma-breathing.

And then there's the machine civilizations mentioned in THE UPLIFT
WAR...  who's *their* Progenitors?

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}
    !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 87 06:58:14 GMT
From: mkao@crash.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: Re: Good (literary) Fantasy (was Re: Earthsea,Belgariad
Subject: etc.....)

I disagree that Terry Brooks' _Shannara_ trilogy is a complete copy
of Tolkien's_Lord of the Rings_. I'll admit that the first one, _The
Sword of Shannara_, was very unoriginal and that maybe that one was
a complete transliteration of Tolkien; however, the other 2 were
original, and in my opinion, pretty entertaining.

Mike Kao
UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.mil
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 15:55:58 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Author of THE QUIET EARTH

There were questions a while ago about the book on which was based
the movie "The Quiet Earth", (1985, New Zealand (no, not Australia,
New Zealand)).

I have now found out that the book had the same title and was
published in 1981 by Hodder and Stoughton of N.Z., with a paperback
from Collins in 1986.  The author is Craig Harrison (1942- ), born
in Leeds, England, living in New Zealand since 1962, and currently
teaching Art History at Massey University in the city of Palmerston
North.

Mark Brader
SoftQuad Inc.
Toronto
utzoo!sq!msb

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 11:45:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: LITTLE, BIG by JOHN CROWLEY

     Yesterday, I finished reading LITTLE, BIG by John Crowley.  I
thought it was a real nice book, though, I have the feeling that I
missed something.  It had a real feeling of grandeur in the world
and beauty, but I had thought that there was more to it than what I
got out of it.  I would appreciate any comments by people who have
read it.  A number of years back, I had read ENGINE SUMMER, also by
Crowley and the ending of that book just wasn't quite satisfying for
me as I remember it. It was a real good book, but there was
something missing.  Any thoughts?  Anyone have any thoughts about
his other books?  Hope to hear something.

Neil A. Ottenstein
Arpanet: OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
Bitnet:  OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 18:58:21 GMT
From: bwong@ihwpt.att.com (bruce wong)
Subject: Re: LITTLE, BIG by JOHN CROWLEY

From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
>     Yesterday, I finished reading LITTLE, BIG by John Crowley.  I
>thought it was a real nice book, though, I have the feeling that I
>missed something.  It had a real feeling of grandeur in the world
>and beauty, but I had thought that there was more to it than what I
>got out of it.  I would appreciate any

I read it two summers ago and I also felt a lack of climax at the
end of the book.  It had a meandering feeling that was like some
summers I remember.  They were full of heat, humidity, and laziness
that skirted slightly into boredom.  Altogether very pleasant in my
memories so I didn't mind the feeling that I missed something at the
end of the book.

Bruce F. Wong
ihnp4!ihwpt!bwong
ATT Bell Laboratories
Naperville-Wheaton Rd
Naperville, Ill 60566   6C-314
312-979-6887

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 22:27:32 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Stainless Steel Rat

I have just joined the Science Fiction Book Club, and one of their
two "feature books" for this month is "The Stainless Steel Rat Gets
Drafted". I assume that means that it is now available, or at least
will be very soon. This seems to contradict the October date that a
couple people have quoted.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 87 20:31:19 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: MATHENAUTS

obnoxio@brahms.berkeley.edu writes:

>               MATHENAUTS: Tales of Mathematical Wonder
>                         edited by Rudy Rucker
>First off, Rucker's introduction is pathetic.  No wonderful
>descriptions of mathematics or mathematicians like Fadiman had.
>Sentences like "The great thing about mathematical science fiction
>is that it gives the reader the weirdness of math without the
>work." or "I'd like to sit those scoffers down and make them read
>[...,] not so much because they would love the story, but rather
>because it would *confirm their worst suspicions*."  make me want
>to throw up.  Not even Asimov in the best of 19xx anthologies'
>introductions causes me to think "ghetto".  Part of what
>contributes to this feeling, beyond the quoted efforts on Rucker's
>part, was his inability to find >anything< outside of the
>mainstream of industrial strength science fiction, in losing
>contrast to Fadiman's "here's a bunch of stories that I liked, and
>so will you!".  Not even one stupid limerick!  Fadiman found
>fantastic mathematical items from Plato, Houseman, Leacock,
>Beckett, Queneau, etc.  Has Rucker read--or known anyone who has
>read--a scrap even of Kafka, Borges, Calvino, Stoppard, T S Eliot,
>etc?  It's a rhetorical question, yes, but a loud and enthusiastic
>"HECK NO" answer wouldn't surprise me.  He ends his introduction
>verbally pullulating over possibilities yet to come--if Rucker's so
>bloody impatient, he could go to a library instead of being such a
>narrow-minded whinger.  Feh.

I'll answer your question, anyway.  In *Infinity and the Mind*, one
of his mathematics popularizations, he uses both Kafka (the Castle)
and Borges ("Funes the Memorious" and "The Library of Babel") as
illustrations and he even has *Labyrinths* and *Dream-Tigers* in the
bibliography.

As for your comments on Rucker's fiction, I have to agree with you,
more or less.  I couldn't finish *Master of Space and Time*, but
he's written some wonderful short fiction.

The one that sticks most in my mind is (getting a little off topic)
"Schroedinger's Cat", one of the best stories about quantum
mechanics I've ever seen.

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #374
Date:  8 Sep 87 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #374
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 87 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #374
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 374

Today's Topics:

              Books - Chalker (3 msgs) & Cook (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 22:59:44 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: WARRIORS OF THE STORM by Jack L. Chalker

WARRIORS OF THE STORM [***+]
Jack Chalker

"Warriors of the Storm" is the third volume (of four) in the "Rings
of the Masters" serial. The first book, "Lords of the Middle Dark",
introduces a future Earth where every segment of the population has
reverted to a pre-technological state under the loving guidance of
the Master System, a computer charged, long ago, with protecting
humanity from itself, no matter what the means.

But the programmers left themselves an out - five rings which, when
brought together in a certain place, would give their wielders
control of the Master System. The Master System does not wish these
rings to be used, but it is forced by its core routines to protect
the rings, and to see that they remain always in the hands of
prominent humans, although nothing says they should be told of their
function.

The first book follows "Walks With the Night Hawks", known
familiarly as "Hawks", as he learns about the rings, and his mission
to find the one known to be on Earth. The owner of that one sends
him into space to find the others. The second book, "Pirates of the
Thunder", concerns their escape from the Master System to the colony
worlds the computer set up to handle the bulk of humanity that
couldn't be reduced to savagery (far too many of them!). At the end
of "Pirates", the protagonists have survived a battle with the
Master System, and are casing a planet to get their first ring...

"Warriors" opens almost immediately after, and starts introducing
some more of the standard Chalker plot devices - such as
shape-changing and parodies of Earth cultures.

But unlike his more recent efforts, most notably the "Soul Rider"
series, he manages to transcend these gimmicks and fit some real
plot into the book. The characters tend to be a bit stiff, even
characters than in earlier books were real individuals.  Possibly
because there are so MANY minor characters left over from the second
book. Chalker begins focusing on a few main ones again, but not
until we're hopelessly confused. This passes, though.

The real hero of this book is Vulture, an artificially created being
that can "swallow" another being and exactly duplicate it, memories
included.  This character is a walking "deus ex machina"... the
group wouldn't have a prayer of succeeding without it.

The characters realize this, and wonder why things are going so well
for them, and this leads into an intriguing subplot.

The book is well-written, and a good page turner.  If Chalker hadn't
explored many of these same plot devices in previous books, it'd
have gotten even higher marks. If you haven't read the first two
books, they're necessary for this one. I give this one a qualified
recommendation - if you haven't liked previous Chalker books, you
won't like this series. And if you have - the trappings that
surround the plot devices are what make this book good.

FYI - Standard Chalker Plot Devices

WC = Web of the Chozen          DD = And the Devil Will Drag You Under
JS = A Jungle of Stars          WW = Well World
FL = Four Lords of the Diamond  DG = Dancing Gods
RM = Rings of the Master        SR = Soul Rider
DN = Downtiming the Night Side  IM = The Identity Matrix
MC = The Messiah Choice         GD = G.O.D. Inc.
WS = War of Shadows

Shape-changing (WC, DD, JS, WW, FL, DG, RM, SR, DN, IM)
Sex changing (WC, WW, FL, DG, RM, SR, DN, IM, MC)
Body Swapping (DD, JS, WW, FL, DG, RM, SR, IM)
Drugs causing behavior modification, usu. sexual (WW, WS, GD, RM, SR)
Artificial Intelligences (WC, WW, RM, SR, MC)
Parodies of Earth Cultures (WC, DD, WW, FL, RM, SR, GD)
Consciousness as part of the body (GD, RM, SR)
Nymphomania (WC, FL, RM, SR, GD)
Pregnancy Compulsion (SR, RM, FL, WC)

The following are not present in the "Rings of the Masters" series -
yet.

o Intelligent Microorganisms (WW, FL)
o Humans in Alien Suits (WC, JS, WW, FL, IM)

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 87 19:34:48 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: When the Changewinds Blow by Chalker

If you like typical Chalker, you'll like "When the Changewinds
Blow".  And contrariwise.  The world is reminiscent of that of the
Dancing Gods (without the silly humor) and the characters are more
reminiscent of those of the Soul Rider books.  (Seeing as I've just
given away everything but some of the plot, I suppose I should have
typed "spoilers" in 60-point font.)

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 22:33:44 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: When the Changewinds Blow by Chalker

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>If you like typical Chalker, you'll like "When the Changewinds
>Blow".  And contrariwise.  The world is reminiscent of that of the
>Dancing Gods (without the silly humor) and the characters are more
>reminiscent of those of the Soul Rider books.  (Seeing as I've just
>given away everything but some of the plot, I suppose I should have
>typed "spoilers" in 60-point font.)

I was going to post a review of this book, but decided not to. It's
TYPICAL CHALKER (good description, Dani). There's nothing new in
this book, it follows the standard Chalker Plot Development with the
Standard Chalker Fantasy Elements (as opposed to the Standard
Science Fiction Elements).

Overall impression: Some nice details. Hell, a lot of nice details.
But it's the main focus that's out. We saw most of this in the Soul
Rider series...  but in this one, Suzl has been split into the two
main characters. One of the pair (and they really are to be
considered one person, a point Chalker hammers home often) is
transformed into a sexy geisha girl, the other flirts briefly with
being male, then has a brush with a demon to obvious ends.

The plot is Standard Quest - characters are set in strange
surroundings, and gradually meet other people who (for a time, at
least) travel with them.  Said characters in the Quest Plot almost
always know more than the main characters (Tolkien, Eddings,
et.al.), and the Quest is at some point completed.

But not in this book. No, this is one of a series, and after a minor
climax, the book ends, with the Standard Intra-Series Hook of
revealing a little extra information to the reader. ("Pirates of the
Thunder", "Four Lords of the Diamond", "Soul Rider", et.al.)

All things considered, typical Chalker.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 87 18:30:09 GMT
From: seismo!watmath!watdragon!hwarkentyne@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Glen Cook

vnend@ukecc.UUCP (D. V. W. James) writes:
> The Black Company books (three out, fourth on the way) are what I
>think of as [Glen Cook's] best work, though Dread Empire is also
>strong.

I'll add my recommendation for the BLACK COMPANY.  Cook creates a
dark, cruel world populated by people who tend not to be
particularly nice, some of whom are capable of controlling
supernatural powers.  The good guys are not absurdly virtuous and
the bad guys are likewise not ridiculous paragons of evil.  Cook
likes to stage big battles where lots of people get slaughtered.
This is a dirty, smelly, bloody world where life is hard and then
you die and people behave accordingly.  It's a change of pace from
the stuff that usually inhabits the fantasy shelves in book stores.
A good piece of escapist fiction for those who prefer a darker view.

>       The book I can hardly wait for though is "The Dragon Never
>Sleeps", ...  Over the millenia the ships have extensively modified
>themselves, to the point that no-one outside really knows what they
>are capable of.  To the contemporary population of the galaxy the
>ships seem strange and alien.

This sounds a bit like the "Starfishers" trilogy, also by Cook.
Starfisher is the term applied to these huge ships that are almost
small worlds.  Strangely enough, the action does not really centre
on the Starfishers but on a band of mercenaries who get involved in
a feud. (Actually, my memory is a bit hazy on this since it has been
a few years since I read this stuff.)

And now, a title request:

Glen Cook has also written a book set in Earth's future after a
global war has almost put Mankind back into the dark ages.  In spite
of this, there is still enough technology remaining to put together
warships which are needed because the war is still going on.  Every
so many years, the two sides gather together as many ships as
possible and send them out to do battle.  The story concerns one
such ship from what used to be Germany, it's journey to the battle,
and the truth behind the conflict.

I have never seen this book mentioned in the space where they
usually list an author's works nor have I seen it in a book store.
Having lost the book, I can no longer recall the title.  Does anyone
out there know what it is?

Ken Warkentyne

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 07:33:01 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: A Glen Cook Bibliography (Was:Re: fantasy recs

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
>> Glen Cook always does a good fantasy - the "Dread Empire" series
>> is a fantastic read...
>
>Does anybody know if this is the series containing _October's Baby_
>and the stuff about El Murid?  I keep looking for titles in this
>series and all I've ever been able to find is two.  One was
>_October's Baby_ and the other, which I've lost, is (I guess) the
>first of the El Murid books (the one that's about how El Murid got
>his start in televangelism).  I also remember a story in _Dragons
>of Darkness_ by Glen Cook, from this same world, after all the wars
>are over.  It was this story that first got me interested.  I find
>this stuff very strange and confusing, which may be because I can
>only get little snatches of the series.  Information on titles and
>pub. status would be MUCH appreciated.

Well, I'll try anyway.

Heirs of Babalon,     1972  First book,  I've only seen it once, I've
                      never read it.  Was not recommended to me.
A Shadow of All Night Falling  (circa 1978)
                      First of the Dread Empire books.
October's Baby        Second Dread Empire.
All Darkness Met      Conclusion of main storyline for Dread Empire.
"Starfishers Trilogy" I havn't read these either. It was originally
(Shadowline)          intended to be two books,  but the editor liked
(Starfishers)         one of the minor characters so much Glen
(Stars' End)          re-wrote the story.
The Swordbearer       Solo story.  For Glen this is a short work.
Chronicles of the Black Company    (Start 1984)
The Black Company     My favorite of the stuff Glen has written
Shadows Linger        to date.  The first book also introduced
The White Rose        Kieth Berdak to SF fandom as the artist
   for the covers of the series.  A fourth book is 'in the pipeline'
   as Glen puts it.  I've forgotten the title, sorry.  Two more (at
   least) books are planned, some main- plotline stories, others
   just in the same setting.
Passage at Arms       Glen's homage to the WW II submarine story.
                      Translated into SF terms, better than I
                      thought it could be done.  A tight war story.
A Matter of Time (1985)  SF/Time travel/Detective story.  Glen writes
                      a decent mystery too...
The Fire in His Hands (1984??)  Set in the Dread Empire world.  This
                      is the first of two books that go back and
                      cover the El Murid wars.
With Mercy Toward None (1985)  Second of the El Murid war books,
                      fifth (in publishing order) of Dread Empire.
The Darkwar Trilogy      If Black Company is my favorite, then this
1 Doomstalker(1985)      has to be the most imaginative.  Told from
2 Warlock    (1985)      the perspective of an alien.  I read a lot
3 Ceremony   (1986)      of series where the ending isn't up to the
                         promise of the series.  This one avoids this,
                         but at a price,  it is a dark tale with a
                         heroine who is at once as evil as Hitler
                         and as good as Lincoln.  Figure that one
                         out... or read the series.
Reap the East Wind(1987) Sixth book set in the Dread Empire world.
                         Also sixth in the storyline, picking up
                         after the end of All Darkness Met.  A
                         little weak in my opinion, but it has some
                         awesome scenes, as well as answering a
                         question I asked a few years back.
Sweet Silver Blues (1987) A fantasy/detective story.  A hardboiled
                         detective working in a world where magic is
                         the rule of the day and peopled by some
                         exotic humanoids.  My favorites were the
                         triplets with different mothers; Dojango,
                         Marsha and Doris, though the vegetarian
                         hit man was fun too.
Bitter Gold Harvest (198?) Sequel to Sweet Silver Blues.  Middle book
                         of three dealing with the same universe.
                         Third book's title I don't know yet.
The Dragon Never Sleeps (June 1988) Glen's magnum opus (so he says
                         anyway) and the one I've been waiting for
                         since 1984.  Space opera.
Shorter stuff;
Ghost Stalk, Fantasy and Science Fiction, may '78.  A ghost story, set
                         in the Dread Empire world, but independent.
Quiet Sea,  F&SF, dec '78 SF, might be loosely connected to his other
                         SF stories (such as Passage at Arms).
Soldier of an Empire Unacquainted with Defeat, Berkley Showcase #(?)
                         Out on loan, but I think it's in #2.  Another
                         fringe Dread Empire tale.  My favorite by
                         Glen.  A good story to start out on, if you
                         find it.
Severed Heads, Sword and Sorceress, edit. M.Z. Bradley.  Yet another
                         Dread Empire fringe tale.
Filed Teeth, Dragons of Darkness, edit. O.S. Card. This one ties up a
                         loose end from the main Dread Empire stories.

   He may have some other short stuff out there that I don't know
of, if you know of anything I haven't listed here let me know.

   Glen currently has 5 books at some point in the publication
process.  The sequel to Sweet Silver Blues, The Dragon Never Sleeps,
the fourth Black Company tale, a follow up to Reap the East Wind
that addresses some of the events that are mentioned in the
background of RtEW, and a fifth that I don't know anything about.
He also has two written that he hasn't submitted to his agent yet,
and contracts to do 3 or 4 more.  Since the plant he has worked at
for the last few years has just been closed he will probably go on a
writting binge soon, and we may see as many as 20 books in the next
two years.  I'm looking forward to it.  Glen is not my favorite
author. But, unlike Roger Zelazny, Glen is consistent.  The
difference between his best and his worst is small, but even his
worst is well crafted and memorable.  I've always been puzzled that
he isn't better known than he is.  Does anyone out there have any
idea why this is?  Guesses?

Well, have fun...

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #375
Date:  8 Sep 87 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #375
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 87 0909-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #375
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 375

Today's Topics:

          Books - Cook & Dick (5 msgs) & Duane (2 msgs) &
                  Evans & Feist & Gibson (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 87 08:21:23 GMT
From: mkao@crash.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: Re: Earthsea,Belgariad etc.....

Well stated, Brian! I completely agree with your view that fantasy
is in the eyes of the beholder, to reword a cliche. The term "kiddie
fantasy" seems to refer to all titles Bruce dislikes. I, for one,
also happened to enjoy many of those titles/authors so casually put
down by Bruce as "drivel." I find that just a *little* offensive,
but neither do I oppose other people posting their opinions.

PS: I agree that Cook's _The Black Company_ was TOTALLY boring, so
much that I returned the series for a refund. Another thing that I
disliked about it was his use of the first person perspective. For
some reason, I like all my fantasy in the third person, limited
perspective. Anyone else like me?

To insure my reception of any replies, please respond via e-mail.
Thanks!

Mike Kao
UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.mil
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 87 13:47:08 GMT
From: seismo!uunet!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

jerryk@sfsup.UUCP (J.Keselman) writes:
>Well, there's always the book that the film "Bladerunner" was based
>on, Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"  A
>subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
>future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
>for android-type animals as pets.  The protagonist was quite
>interested in procuring some pets of his own.  I do believe that
>owning real animals in this world was agin the law.

That was a good book. I bought it when Bladerunner came out. It had
the movie poster of Bladerunner, and was touted as the official
novelization (sort of).

The book was totally different from the movie, but at least as
enjoyable.

Animals WERE emphasized in the movie, but not to the degree of the
book.  There were, in the marketplace, android Ostriches, snakes,
etc... each obviously coveted, but they don't make the show of it
that the book does.

The main character doesn't even OWN an electric sheep, as he does in
the book.

The point about the animals was that it wasn't just illegal to own a
REAL animal, but that no REAL animals existed anymore.

Remember (What the heck was the main character's name?) when he
found, at the end, a frog out in the wilderness and marveled that he
had found a REAL animal?

He picked it up, and turned it over, and there was a battery plate
on the bottom. So much for the possibility of finding a real REAL
animal.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 87 12:14:24 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

>Well, there's always the book that the film "Bladerunner" was based
>on, Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"  A
>subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
>future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
>for android-type animals as pets.  The protagonist was quite
>interested in procuring some pets of his own.  I do believe that
>owning real animals in this world was against the law.

They were not illegal, they were just extremely expensive, that's
why they had *electric* animals.  The true status symbol was to own
any real animal.

mike king
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 02:16:19 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J
From: Brennan)
Subject: Re: Phillip K. Dick

TCORAM@UDCVAX.BITNET writes:
>I just started reading 'Radio Free Albemuth' by Phillip K. Dick and
>was reminded of his 'VALIS' trilogy.  I have read 'VALIS' and
>'DIVINE INVASION', but I cannot find 'The Transmigration of Timothy
>Archer' in any book stores.  Does 'The Transmigration...' take off
>where DIVINE INVASION ended or is it just 'related' to the other
>two books.

   If I'm totally wrong, forgive me, as it's been some time since I
read my last Phillip K. Dick book, and it wasn't The Transmigration
...

   I don't think it was related at all to the other two books, but I
can't quite remember.  In as much as it deals with the non-existence
of Christ (at least as we know him), and Archbishop Timothy Archer's
attempt to deal with this information . . . well, maybe.  One point
of interest is that, like the other two (three, including Radio)
books, it is told in first person, the narrator being Phillip K.
Dick himself, as I recall . . . it's difficult to say whether this
more powerfully conveys the despair in his books than his earlier
third person omniscient or not.

Jared J. Brennan
Box 193 Gilman Hall
Johns Hopkins Univ.
Baltimore, MD  21218
BITNET: INS_BJJB@JHUVMS, INS_BJJB@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_bjjb%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_bjjb

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 87 20:06:03 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

jerryk@sfsup.UUCP (J.Keselman) writes:
>Well, there's always the book that the film "Bladerunner" was based
>on, Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"  A
>subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
>future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
>for android-type animals as pets.

Actually, I thought they handled this quite well.  All of the
animals in the film that we know enough about turn out to be
artificial (e.g., when Decker asks Rachel whether the owl is real,
she says "of course not.")

>  The protagonist was quite interested in procuring some pets of
>his own.  I do believe that owning real animals in this world was
>agin the law.

My (possibly faulty) recollection is that they were merely
expensive.  Wasn't there a catalogue?  However, I seem to recall
that there's no evidence that there are actually *any* real animals.
On the other hand, wasn't there a cat whose sickness was mistaken
for mechanical breakdown?

While on the subject of animals and P. K. Dick, I should also
mention his short story "The Preserving Machine" in which various
pieces of information were recorded by creating animals that
embodied them.  Once in the wild, though...

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 17:16:07 GMT
From: ames!aurora!eugene@RUTGERS.EDU (Eugene miya)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

jeff@uk.ac.ed.aiva (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>jerryk@sfsup.UUCP (J.Keselman) writes:
>>Well, there's always the book that the film "Bladerunner" was
>>based on, Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
>>A subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
>>future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
>>for android-type animals as pets.
>
>Actually, I thought they handled this quite well.  All of the
>animals in the film that we know enough about turn out to be
>artificial (e.g., when Decker asks rachel whether the owl is real,
>she says "of course not.")

>>  The protagonist was quite interested in procuring some pets of
>>his own.  I do believe that owning real animals in this world was
>>agin the law.

>My (possibly faulty) recollection is that they were merely
>expensive.

I remember some dialog between Harrison Ford and the snake-dancer
android that went something like:

HF: (looking at snake) Is it real?
S-DA: Of course not. If I could afford a real one do you think
      I'd be working here?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 87 13:34:18 PDT
From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Dave Platt)
Subject: Short story in the "So you want to be a Wizard?" series

I was recently told (in an email conversation with Courtenay
Footman) that a short story in the "So you want to be a Wizard?"
universe (by Diane Duane) exists.  I'd like to find it... anybody
know where it is?

Courtenay's information is as follows:

   By the way, do you know that there is a short story about Kit and
   Nina?  They get bored one day, so one of the senior wizards gives
   them a subway token with some unusual properties: when you use
   it, the stations one gets off at are all in New York; however,
   each station is in a DIFFERENT New York.  Some better, some
   worse, some both.  Unfortunately I do not remember where I read
   this.  (Actually, I do: it was the Tompkins county public
   library.  What I don't remember is the anthology that I read it
   in.)

The proprietress of my area's SF/Fantasy shop (Future Fantasy)
hadn't heard of it, but is interested in locating it also.  Can
anybody out there give me a lead?  Jayembee?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 05:19:59 GMT
From: lll-lcc!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Short story in the "So you want to be a Wizard?" series

From: dplatt@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Dave Platt)
>I was recently told (in an email conversation with Courtenay
>Footman) that a short story in the "So you want to be a Wizard?"
>universe (by Diane Duane) exists.  I'd like to find it... anybody
>know where it is?

The short story is called "Uptown Local", and can be found in:

   Dragons & Dreams
   edited by Jane Yolen, Martin H. Greenberg, and Charles G. Waugh
   published by Harper & Row

Joe Kalash
{ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 01:15:28 GMT
From: see1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Tolkien-bashing and "mystical shakeups"

Just because I feel like stirring up discussion on a new topic -- in
sf-lovers, that is, this fits into newage rather well -- I'm posting
an excerpt from a dusty book I dug up in one of the campus
libraries.  The author is Christopher Evans; the book is _Cults of
Unreason_.

I quote a passage from pages 250-1, without permission.

   Another interesting and on the whole youthful audience for
   mythology of one kind or another could be found amongst the
   readers of the magazine _Gandalf's Garden.  This appears to have
   folded, along with the Chelsea coffee bar and hippy commune from
   which it was published, quite recently, but it is worth referring
   to as a good example of present cultish trends.  It is also a
   particularly suitable point at which to end the book, for the
   good-natured outlook of the new wave of occultists, as
   exemplified by the readers of publications like _Gandalf's
   Garden_, is one of the more hopeful messages that we can find to
   spell out.

   There can be few readers, incidentally, who fail to recognize the
   allusion in the magazine's title to the tedious wizard in J.R.R.
   Tolkien's saga _The Lord of the Rings_.  This immense work, three
   volumes stuffed with the adventures of a group of semi-human
   hoofed creatures known as Hobbits who between them manage to save
   the world from the evil hegemony of a magician-dictator, has
   become one of the publishing bonanzas of the century.  The
   travels of the Hobbits, who have names like Bilbo, Frodo, etc.,
   across an imaginary land known as Middle Earth, and their
   encounters with trolls, werewolves and giant spiders, are
   recounted in immense detail, and stacked with cross-references,
   glossaries, maps, notes on dialect, genealogical tables of the
   reigning dwarf monarchs, regional folk songs, poetry, etc.  The
   author, a distinguished academic and historian, tells his tale
   with panache, though racked with whimsy, and it is not hard to
   see its appeal to the schizophrenic latent within us all.  This
   is the quirk that leads small boys to document train numbers and
   adults to collect stamps, butterflies or plot the tramway system
   of Amsterdam.  No doubt Professor Tolkien had a shrewd idea of
   what a powerful obsessive spring his saga would tap in the minds
   of his readers, but it is doubtful if he could have foreseen the
   speed with which his entirely legendary figures would acquire a
   strange kind of reality, a weird sort of living presence which
   leads people to write 'Bilbo Baggins is a queer' or 'Frodo is
   alive and well and living in Argentina' on lavatory walls, and
   which gained for the wizard Gandalf a substantial number of
   write-in votes in the 1968 presidential election.  At one level
   such anthropomorphisms are funny, and at another they are sad,
   for it is surely an acrid comment on the world of the late
   twentieth century that so many of its inhabitants yearn for a
   universe populated by Hobbits, elves and gnomes in preference to
   that run by their fellow men.  But perhaps what the world really
   does need is a bit of a mystical shakeup, and electing a genuine
   wizard to the White House might sort things out in double-quick
   time.

"..perhaps.."?

I'll post some commentary on this in a couple of days (it's gonna
take me a couple of days to recover from posting it :-) ).  In the
meantime, what do folks out there think?

Ellen Keyne Seebacher
{ihnp4!gargoyle, oddjob}!sphinx!see1

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 18:18:03 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: _Wizard of Earthsea_ (really Feist)

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP writes:
>  I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the
> Earthsea trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate ...
>  I would like to suggest the following ... as being [truly great]
> 2/. The Magician by Feist.

Can someone out there explain why people actually like this work
(Feist that is, not Earthsea)?  It is a total mystery to me.  I read
the first book and it came off as cardboard characters being pulled
about on strings.  I didn't even consider spending more money for
the rest of the series.  But people keep claiming to like it, and at
the same time not liking Earthsea, or Lord of Light, or whatever
other books I consider great.  De gustibus non est disputandum, but
I would appreciate having some clue to the hidden redeeming literary
value I must be missing.

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U.
Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 87 00:14:54 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Gibson and Hemmingway

Recently, I read Gibson's two novels, _Neuromancer_ and
_Count_Zero_.  At first, I thought the style was very familiar, but
I couldn't place it.  By the time I got to _Count_Zero_, though, I
was sure he was consciously imitating Hemmingway's style.  Then I
got to the part in CZ about how to shoot squirrels, and my hunch was
confirmed.  The style was straight out the 'Nick Adams' stories that
Hemmingway wrote - right down to the serene and peaceful squirrel
killings.  Has anyone else out there noticed this similarity?  Do
you think he's doing it consciously (yes, he is!)?

BTW, I thought these books are some of the best sci-fi I've ever
read - truly good literature.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 22:04:08 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Gibson and Hemmingway

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>Recently, I read Gibson's two novels, _Neuromancer_ and
>_Count_Zero_.  At first, I thought the style was very familiar, but
>I couldn't place it.  [it turns out that Gibson is immitating
>Hemmingway]

Also Chandler, especially in *Neuromancer*.  The last line of
Neuromancer is identical to the last line in Chandler's *The Big
Sleep*.  This beyond the general atmosphere of decadence and
corruption so prevalent in the Marlowe books.

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #376
Date:  8 Sep 87 0922-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #376
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 87 0922-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #376
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 376

Today's Topics:

              Books - LeGuin (6 msgs) & Thieve's World

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 87 02:39:20 GMT
From: 6111660@pucc.princeton.edu (Andrew Zovko)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) writes:
>Many people have written, expressing their various opinions as to
>the relative worth of The Tombs of Atuan and The Farthest Shore...
>
>I consider Earthsea to be one of the few real trilogies around (as
>opposed to a novel in three volumes, like The Lord of the Rings),
>and as one of the major works in LeGuin's output to date.  I am not
>willing to pull ANY of the three books out and subject it to
>special consideration, positive or negative, not given to each of
>the other books as well.

Pardon me, but if "Earthsea" is a true trilogy, then you SHOULD be
able to examine each of the books on its own.  There is little
problem with so doing with the three books of the "Bounty" trilogy,
although they do work best as a set.

On the other hand, a three-volume novel such as LoTR can neither be
sensibly read nor understood, except as a whole.

Robert A. West
Q4071@PUCC
US MAIL: 7 Lincoln Place
         Suite A
         North Brunswick, NJ 08902
VOICE  : (201) 821-7055
...!seismo!princeton!phoenix!pucc!q4071

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 17:36:47 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!mcvax!prle1!nvpna1!amphelan@RUTGERS.E
From: DU (Cathal Phelan)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

 I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the Earthsea
trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate in the world of
sword and sorcery novels. I hope that all this praise, including
that of Mr. Farren come due to lack of exposure to the truly great
novels/series/trilogies in this area.
 I would like to suggest the following few examples as being
of that better class;
1. The Belgariad ( 5 books in the series) by Eddings.
2. The Magician  by Feist.
3. The War of Powers ( book 1 and 2 ) by Vardiman et al.
4. Split Infinity trilogy by Anthony.

I hope that I have been able to help those who really wish to read
some great SF books.

Cathal Phelan
Philips Natuurkundig Laboratorium
Eindhoven, The Netherlands.
..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!amphelan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 14:34:49 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!mcvax!prle1!nvpna1!amphelan@RUTGERS.E
From: DU (Cathal Phelan 44205)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ (really Feist)

eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) writes:
>amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP writes:
>>  I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the
>> Earthsea trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate ...
>>  I would like to suggest the following ... as being [truly great]
>> 2. The Magician  by Feist.
>
>Can someone out there explain why people actually like this work
>(Feist that is, not Earthsea)?  It is a total mystery to me.  I
>read the first book and it came off as cardboard characters being
>pulled about on strings.  I didn't even consider spending more
>money for the rest of the series.  But people keep claiming to like
>it, and at the same time not liking Earthsea, or Lord of Light, or
>whatever other books I consider great.  De gustibus non est
>disputandum, but I would appreciate having some clue to the hidden
>redeeming literary value I must be missing.

  If the characters in R.E.Feist's books are cardboard cutouts ( as
David Eppstein of Columbia Univ. thinks ) then the characters of
Earthsea can only be described as crepe-paper cutouts. U. LeGuin's
characters lack everything. A boy/man/moron being chased around the
universe by a blob can be of limited interest. What is more, the
nature of this evil force is so underdeveloped that it's no wonder
it is described as a black shadow. And why , oh why does it take so
long in finally catching him .( Which reminds me after waiting so
long for this meeting of good and bad I was depressed to find out
that they were one and the same --- boring end to a boring plot
!!!).
  Please, why aren't there people out there who have taste.!!!!!!!!
hasn't anybody read 'The Belgariad' ??? If you have you must see how
pathetic and boring Earthsea is in comparison. And yes I do like
Feist's Magician series although the first book is in my opinion
better than the subsequent two. As for those who still think
Earthsea is great and have read 'The Belgariad' then I can only say
that there is no hope for you at all. !!!!!!!!!!

Cathal Phelan
Philips Natuurkundig Laboratorium
Eindhoven, The Netherlands.
..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!amphelan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 14:22:18 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!mcvax!prle1!nvpna1!sinnott@RUTGERS.ED
From: U (Michael Sinnott 42502)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ (really Feist)

eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein) writes:
>amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP writes:
>>  I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the
>> Earthsea trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate ...
>>  I would like to suggest the following ... as being [truly great]
>> 2. The Magician  by Feist.
>
>Can someone out there explain why people actually like this work
>(Feist that is, not Earthsea)?  It is a total mystery to me.  I
>read the first book and it came off as cardboard characters being
>pulled about on strings.  I didn't even consider spending more
>money for the rest of the series.  But people keep claiming to like
>it, and at the same time not liking Earthsea, or Lord of Light, or
>whatever other books I consider great.  De gustibus non est
>disputandum, but I would appreciate having some clue to the hidden
>redeeming literary value I must be missing.  -- David Eppstein,
>eppstein@cs.columbia.edu, Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

As a recent discoverer of this network, I browsed through the group
dealing with a favourite subject of mine - namely Fantasy/SF. Amoung
the articles, I noticed a large number on the subject of The
Earthsea Trilogy, the latest example of which I have repeated above.
It seems typical of the rather close-minded childish prejudice
presented in many of the other articles. The writers react to
criticism of Earthsea in the same way an insecure child reacts to
somebody who threatens to take away his comfort blanket. I have also
read Earthsea but can see nothing in it worth protecting with such
paranoid vigour. It seems likely that this attitude to what is a
fundamentally dull and thin book is caused by the fact that it was
it's defenders first exposure to this genre. But this should be no
reason to damn other books of a far more developed and imaginative
nature. This is like somebody criticising a Ferrari because his own
first car was a Model-T Ford. A probably subconcious application of
double standards in literary criticism is part of the problem.

While I must admit that I am unimpressed by Earthsea - it displays a
lack of geographic imagination, an uninspiring plot, an unconvincing
atmosphere and plastic characters - I would also be prepared to
accept criticism of a series of books I like very much , the Thomas
Covenant double trilogy by Stephen Donaldson. The plot in those
books can assume rather tortuous twists and the atmosphere is, if
anything, overly convincing with a pervasive feeling of depression
throughout. But it could hardly be called the romp of a gloomy guy
through cardboard countryside - the essence of Earthsea.

I am sure that there are more people out there who agree with me on
Earthsea - and who also like Stephen Donaldson (?). So could they
please contribute to the enlightenment of those misguided souls who
worship at the cracked idol of Earthsea.

Michael Sinnott
Philips Natuurkundig Laboratorium
Eindhoven, The Netherlands.
..!mcvax!prle!nvpna1!sinnott

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 15:41:47 GMT
From: ames!kccs!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ (really Feist)

Hmm.  TWO postings from the Netherlands regarding Earthsea, both
down- rating the books for their poor characterization.  Are you
guys, perhaps, reading the Dutch translations?  Whatever the faults
of the Earthsea books may be, characterization is definitely not one
of them.  The characters, Ged in particular, are drawn with
exquisite care, and are much more human and full than most any
fantasy characters I can think of.  Comparing Feist or (shudder)
Anthony, or, (double shudder and swoon) Donaldson to LeGuin is
rather like comparing Peter Max to Rembrandt, or Eddie Van Halen to
Bach.  I'm truly sorry that you have missed the beauty of LeGuin's
writing.  This is definitely your loss.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 87 01:10:05 GMT
From: sc1u+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Stephen Chan)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ (really Feist)

   If you judge fantasy stories by the number of characters that
ooze evil, or barbarians with huge muscles and razor sharp swords,
or maybe wizards who zap baddies with their mystical and arcane
powers...

   ...then I guess _The_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ would be lost on you.

   The_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ is not about brawny, musclebound
swordsmen battling Ogres and dragons and other baddies. It's not
about scantily clad heroines with "huge tracts of land", traipsing
around some scenic fantasy milieu. The "bad guys" in tWoE don't drip
evil...they are more subtle...the "evil blob" isn't some nether
demon, spreading destruction in it's wake. The "evil blob" is a part
of Ged. It's a manifestation of the the foolish pride and arrogance
that made Ged call forth the ghost in his youth. Even though Ged was
saved by his masters, he is a scarred and humbled person afterwards.
But the "evil blob" is still free, and it is something that Ged must
eventually face. Of course the "evil blob" is not well
characterised, it isn't really a character...it's a part of Ged,
it's tangible reminder of guilt and past foolishness.
   By the same token, swords and magic cannot harm it, only strength
of character, persistence and wisdom can defeat it. It is a constant
drag on Ged, he tries to hide from it, to forget it. But he cannot.
In the end, he must face the "evil blob" and re-integrate
himself...the evil and guilt is within himself, to conquer the "evil
blob", he must face and conquer himself.
   True, you may not agree with this interpretation, but
_The_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ doesn't hit you over the head with
simplified Good vs. Evil battles. In _The_Farthest_Shore_ the evil
wizard doesn't "possess" people with his awesome bad-guy-type
powers... the evil isn't some nasty villian in a black cape. The
evil is a stagnation of hope, a spread of apathy...it doesn't
overpower men, it seduces them. And, the evil wizard isn't quite so
evil, he's actually very human...except he is driven by his fear of
death to defy nature. Birth-growth-death...this is the natural order
of things, to avoid death, the wizard offers the alternative of
stagnation.  No growth, no decay, no change, therefore no death.

   It can be said that Ursula LeGuin is more "literary" oriented
than "entertainment" oriented. As such, I guess the surface aspects
of _The_Wizard_of_Earthsea_ such as action, pace and setting would
be dull.
   Some people seem to think the characterizations are poor. I think
they are wrong...the characters aren't COLORFUL...which is what many
people seem to think characterization is all about. But after
reading the Earthsea trilogy, I understood Ged, I could understand
his motivations and it might be said that I admired Ged. The people
who say that Ged is "cardboard" are dead wrong...because a man is
quiet, doesn't mean he is two-dimensional.

   The world that Ged lives in may seem dull, because it all seems
so "normal". But that is part of the magic of Earthsea...it is so
familiar, so normal...but yet different in a strange and magical
way. We feel "it's nothing special" only because LeGuin has made it
so entirely believable...it's just like the world you live in now,
except there's magic...maybe you don't always see it, and maybe it's
not too flashy...but you know the magic is working in subtle ways
all around you.

sinnot@nvpna1.UUCP (Micheal Sinnot) says:
> It seems likely that this attitude to what is a fundamentally dull
>and thin book is caused by the fact that it was it's defenders
>first exposure to this genre. But this should be no reason to damn
>other books of a far more developed and imaginative nature.

   This is an arrogant and condescending remark. I've read Tolkien,
Wolfe and "billyuns and billyuns" of other authors before reading
the Earthsea trilogy, and I still found the books to be excellent.
Just because you don't share an opinion with someone else, don't
assume that they are "naive" and aren't quite as "worldly" as you.
It's simply a matter of what you look for in a book, and what the
author is trying to express. By displaying your narrow and
condescending viewpoint ("Earthsea is trash, REAL MEN read Stephen
Donaldson.  Everyone else has the literary development of a dog
signing a fire hydrant."), you only serve to draw attention to your
own faults.

   In fact, I also enjoy Stephen Donaldson...I'm right now in the
middle of _The_Wounded_Land_, but the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
is not the same as the Earthsea Trilogy. The authors are using
different methods and have different goals. They should be judged on
their own merits.

   But I will take a pot shot at Piers Anthony...

   Piers Anthony tries to be "literary", he tries constantly to use
symbolism, allegory and make these grand moralising plots. But, he
fails miserably. His style may best be described as the Sam Kinnison
method of writing:
   "THIS IS ALLEGORY GODDAMMIT! A-L-L-E-G-O-R-Y!!! WATCH ME USE
SYMBOLS!  SEE...*THIS* IS A SYMBOL!!! NOW, LISTEN CAREFULLY, BECAUSE
I'M NOT GOING TO YELL IT MORE THAN TEN TIMES...THIS IS THE MORAL OF
THE STORY!
   YAHHHHHHH!!!!! THIS IS THE MORAL, YOU IDIOT, LET ME REPEAT IT A
FEW MORE TIMES...THEN I'LL TAKE MY SYMBOLISM AND BLUDGEON YOU WITH
IT A FEW TIMES TO MAKE SURE YOU REALIZE IT'S SYMBOLISM!
   YAHHHHH!!!! LOVE CONQUERS ALL! WOMEN ARE STUPID SEX MACHINES!!!
AND GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD, _I_AM_A_GREAT_WRITER! I AM THE BEST
BY VIRTUE OF SHEER QUANTITY! I CONFESS! I CONFESS THAT I AM INDEED
THE *BEST* WRITER IN THE UNIVERSE!"

   Anthony has all the subtlety and craft of a headless chicken.
True, he has a few clever puns and can be very amusing. But after
more than three or four books, he gets extremely repetitive.

   It's all a matter of what the author is trying to do and whether
he/she suceeds or not. LeGuin succeeds in showing the growth,
maturation and old age of Ged as a person in his unique world. There
are some messages and themes weaved into the story, but they are
elegantly and realistically presented as part of Ged's development
and of those he meets. Not so with Anthony. But anyway, this message
is getting too long and it won't convince you thick-headed
NetLanders no matter what I say.

Steve Chan
SC1U@andrew

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 14:34:06 GMT
From: seismo!uunet!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Thieves World

olegovna@MATH.UCLA.EDU (Tamara Petroff) writes:
>sean1@garfield.UUCP (Sean Huxter) writes:
>>I do like ShadowSpawn though.
>You must mean ShadowsPawn.   :-)

True, there is some ambiguity here, but the double meaning was
surely carefully thought out and planned.

It could be either ShadowsPawn, pawn of the shadows, or at the same
time it could be ShadowSpawn, spawned from the shadows.

This is one of the things I liked about Shadowspawn

(I wonder if it could also mean the Dowspawn of Sha?   ;->   )

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #377
Date:  8 Sep 87 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #377
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 87 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #377
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 377

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Eddings (5 msgs) &
                             Women Authors (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 23:44:40 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Earthsea,Belgariad etc.....

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP (Cathal Phelan 44205) writes:
>Anyway I still stick to my opinion that 'the Belgariad' and
>hopefully the sequel 'the Mallorean' are quite brilliant

Brilliant is way off.  I admit to reading and enjoying the books
(especially for their interesting descriptions of magic).  However,
the characters are still rather 2d, and very stereotypical.  There
is a) standard issue crotchety old wizard, b) spoiled brat princess,
c) valorous, but stupid knight, d) rather confused, bumbling youth
helped along with a little 'deus ex machina', and e) the sneaky
'rat-faced' spy.  The most annoying thing, though, are not the
unreal characters, but the fact that all the characters have the
same boring style of cracking jokes - UNDERSTATEMENT.  I know Edding
keeps *telling* us the characters are different, but he sure doesn't
show us they're different.  Hardly 'brilliant'.  Definitely not
literary.  Fun to read, though (if you ignore his faults, which
really aren't that bad for a fantasy writer.  It's hard to create
original characters in a genre that demands stereotypes).

>and I'll sit here and wait and hope that someone will agree !!

According to P.T. Barnum, you'll only have to wait a minute...

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 87 19:09:49 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!oppy@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Oppy)
Subject: Re: Earthsea,Belgariad etc.....

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP (Cathal Phelan 44205) writes:
>'the Belgariad' series ( my favourite series ever, by the way ) as
>predictable .Well, yes the final outcome is predictable, but aren't
>99% of all fictional stories the same, certainly the Earthsea
>trilogy isn't free of this fault either. (By the way

Hear, Hear!  I wish to add my opinion that the Belgariad is the best
series I have ever read.  To reiterate, certainly the outcome is
predictable, but that is true for _all_ SF, Fantasy books I have
read - including Kane, Elric, Tolkien, and Eartsea.  The real trick
in fantasy/sf is to make the characters seem real and keep the magic
alive.

Salutations,
Brian Oppy

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 87 23:36:20 GMT
From: nancy!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: The Mallorian Spoiled

A while back someone (I forget who) suggested that those of us who
knock David Eddings' Belgariad for being so predictable were using
our 20/20 hindsights to do the predicting.  He also challanged us to
make simmilar predictions about the Mallorian if Eddings is so
predictable.

Ok, I'll bite.

WARNING Will Robinson! Possible Spoilers Ahead!!!

I will start off not with a spoiler but with a sneer.

I found the little bit about Polgara still legally being the Duchess
of Erat and thus immensly rich due to a mellenia of accumulated
tithes to be utterly ridiculous.  Maybe I just know too much about
Medieval History.  (Like all the programmers who read Watchmen
having an instinctive gag reflex at the silliness of Ozymanias'
Password Security) I mean, in and among the other 'realistic'
touches about Belgarion being concered about tax revenue and Porenn
needing the customs revenue of the Nothern Caravan Route we're
supposed to believe the masters of practicality and pragmatism
didn't declare the Wacite Arend Titles Void?  Get Real.  (Excuse
me)

Now on with the real purpose of this article.

All Quotes are of course from _GUARDIANS_OF_THE_WEST_: Book One of
The Mallorian, by David Eddings. Published by Ballantine Books a
division of Random House Inc.  Copyright 1987 by David Eddings.

Probably among the easiest things to predict is who will be at the
final confrontation.

We are told right out that the following will be there (with the
exception of the one who buys the farm somewhere along the way)

The Child of Light           Belgarion
The Eternal and Beloved      Belgarath
(no title given)             Polgara
The Bearer of the Orb        Errand
The Queen of the World       Ce'Nedra
The Man with Two Lives       Durnik
The Guide                    Kheldar (Silk)
The Silent Man               Toth

There is also several others who ar not identified by their mundane
names but only by their prophetic nominatives: The Huntress, the Man
Who Is No Man, the Empty One, and the Woman Who Watches.

Here are a few predictions

The Huntress:

  This is obviously Margravine Liselle.  Eddings wouldn't have so
pointedly brought up the nature of the Drasnian agent 'Hunter' if it
weren't significant.  And who would Javelin have assigned the task of
infiltrating the Bear Cult to, given the pains the problem has been
giving him for the past several years?  The excuse for Liselle being
with Javelin at Riva:
    "My uncle has pressed me into service as his secretary. He
    pretends failing eyesight, but I think perrhaps it's just an
    excuse to avoid gining me a genuine assingment.  Older relatives
    tend to be overprotective sometimes, don't you think?"
      - Guardians of the West, Pg. 305

doesn't wash with the fact that he had her cruxified at
Jarvicksholm.  Not the act of an over-protective uncle.  So they
were trying to mislead everyone there. Why?  I think it was to get
the best agent of Drasnian Intelligence into the middle of the most
urgent mystery pending at the time. (Brand's Murder)

the Man Who Is No Man:

  This one is a little tougher.  But it sounds like a description of
a eunich to me.  Only eunich we've seen so far is Sadi.  Hummm.
They're heading toward Nyssia you say...

the Woman Who Watches:

  This is almost certainly Cyradis.  She even says that she will
meet them later and that her separation from Toth is temporary.  She
is a seer, the Seers from Kell have been Watching without
participating in events for Millenia.  So I can't think of any more
fitting canidate for this title.

the Empty One:

  Alright, I admit it. This one has me stumped.  This is only the
first book and I don't think we've met this character yet.  In the
Belgariad we didnt meet the Bowman, the Knight Protector, or the
Queen of the World until the second book, and we didn't meet the
Blind Man until the third.  So this one will have to wait.

The Mysteries.

   The Mrin Codex says that the Quest will be threefold and the way
will be found in the mysteries.  The first part is clearly to find
clear copies of the other mysteries.  The First Mystery is the Mrin
Codex, the second and third will be the Ashabine Prophecies and the
Gospels of the Seers at Kell.

The Nature of Errand - or "Why is it that everyone and everything
involved in this whole thing stops by to pay you a visit?" (GotW pg.
145)

  This is pure guesswork and I will admit that I could easily be
proved wrong in the next book or so.  But I get the feeling that
Errand and Zandramas are two halves of the same entity.

  Where did Errand come from anyway?  I dont think the explanation
that he was just an innocent youth washes anymore.  (Like Riva was
just another Alorn. Yeh right.)  I think there must be something
unusual about his origin (I probably read too many comic books)
Errand is too good natured to be believed.  He never gets angry!  He
is never even rude!  Even Garion got downright snotty at times.
Something is definitely missing from his makeup.

  Errand has no memory of his early childhood before Zedar picked
him up.  Arguing again for an unusual origin.

  There is unarguably something unusual enough about Errand over and
above his being able to cart the Orb around that nessesitated
Cyradis comming around to check him out:

   She paused and bent forward sligtly as if she were in fact
   peering at him, though the cloth over her eyes was quite thick.
   "It _is_ true, then. We could not be certain as such great
   distance, but now that I am face to face with thee, I know that
   there can be no mistake."  - Guardians of the West, Pg. 54

  Zandramas on the other hand seems to have all of the qualities
that Errand lacks in excess.  We haven't seen any evidence that he
has a civil cell in his body.  Even Asharak, Zedar, Ctuchick, and
Torak could be civil if the occasion demanded it.

  Another point is that no one ever heard of Zandramas until
reciently.  This argues for a recient creation.  Like right around
the time of the Belgariad perhaps.

And then there are a few stray lines of Prophecy:

   Behold, in the day that Aldur's Orb burns hot with crimson fire
   shall the name of the Child of Dark be revealed. Guard well the
   son of the Child of Light for he shall have no brother.  And it
   shall come to pass that those which once were one and now are two
   shall be rejoined, and in that rejoining shall one of them be no
   more.  -Guardians of the West, Pg. 228

and then when Errand meets the shadow of Zandramas

Zandramas: "And so _thou_ are the one, ... Fear me, for the day will
           come when I will surely destroy thee."

Errand:    "Not surely." ...

Zandramas: "We will meet in the flesh, boy, and in that meeting
           shalt thou die."

Errand: "That hasnt been decided yet, has it?  That's why we have to
        meet -to decide which of us will stay and which must go."

   -Guardians of the West,  Pg. 107

What is the Cthrag Sardius?

  Well we are told right out that it is a living stone like the Orb.
However what is its nature?  I suspect that it is a meterorite that
the Dark Prophecy invested its power into after the confrontation
between Belgarion and Ol' Burnt Face.

   Why? After that event the Dark Prophecy flee into the nameless
places (sounds like deep space to me)
   Also there is the statement by Vordai (communicated through the
fenlings) that "...that which is behind it all has no face and that
it comes from much farther than you think." (GotW, Pg 278)

Who will bite the big one on the way?

  To tell the truth I'm not sure yet.  I would guess that it is male
because Cyradis used a male pronoun; but that doesn't necessarily
mean anything.  If true, Polgara, Liselle, and Ce'Nedra are out.

  I think Belgarion and Errand are out because Cyradis indicated
that the death occurs enroute and both of them pretty much have to
be at the final confrontation.  (Also she gave the warning to
Belgarion) Comments from Cyradis also seem to rule out Ce'Nedra even
if the pronoun was meaningless.

  That leaves Silk, Belgarath, Durnik, Toth, Mr. Not Man, and the
Empty One.

    I think that Silk is out for reasons having to do with the
gossip section down below.

  I suppose that Durnik could be ending his second life Real Soon
Now.  But it doesn't feel right.  If it were Durnik I think Cyradis
would have warned Polgara, not Belgarion specificly.

  As for Toth, Mr. Not Man, the Empty One, (and the Huntress too), I
don't think that any of these dying would have enough emotional
impact on Belgarion to warrent a special warning.  Not that he
doesn't care - but still, he know any of them well yet.

  (Cyradis - don't be ridiclulous, she has to be there at the end to
make the big bad BLIND choice between Light and Dark)

  That leaves Belgarath.  Of course if he is finding the path
through the Mysteries he has to buy it near the end of things,
perhaps in some way his death provides the final clue to getting
there.  There is also the line direct from the Prophecy that keeps
running through my mind:

      "Time is running out on you Belgarath."

Well that's all the predicting that I feel like doing right now.

One bit of gossip though before I sign off completely; Will the
Huntress manage to snare the most elegible and elusive bachelor in
the West?  Naw. Couldn't be.

Covert C Beach
PO Box 6585
E. Lansing, MI 48826-6585
..{ihnp4,pur-ee,umich,itivax,super,well}!msudoc!beach.UUCP
beach@msudoc.egr.mich-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 87 04:53:16 GMT
From: gatech!gt-stratus!chen@RUTGERS.EDU (Ray Chen)
Subject: Re: The Mallorian Spoiled

A good article.  Just one quibble.  Major quibble, actually.

The taxes being paid by the district of Erat are being held by the
*Sendarian* crown, not the Drasnian crown.  Presumably when Sendaria
was created, the formerly Wacite Arendish district was included in
Sendar.

Sendarians being the most disgustingly honest and practical people
around, I find it perfectly reasonable (in that world) that the
funds are still there.  Especially as I doubt it really takes much
money to run Sendaria.

Ray Chen
chen@gatech

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 87 22:47:27 GMT
From: nancy!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: The Mallorian Spoiled

>A good article.  Just one quibble.  Major quibble, actually.

All right, so I got a cheap shot, I should know better than to
expect too much reality in my Fantasy.  It's just that I wish that
if an author isnt going to think finances through he/she should
leave it in the same nebulous void that other authors leave them in.
(Like Tolkien, he told wonderful stories, but Middle Earth never
worked at all on a fiscal level.

>The taxes being paid by the district of Erat are being held by the
>*Sendarian* crown, not the Drasnian crown.  Presumably when
>Sendaria was created, the formerly Wacite Arendish district was
>included in Sendar.

Did I give the impression that I thought Erat was in Drasnia?  If I
did, my apologies. (I don't have the original article around
anymore, so I'm relying on memory as to what my exact words were.)

I remember useing an example of Porenn needing the customs revenue
of the Great Norther Caravan Route. (This was why the Mrin River was
unnavigable past Boktor)

As a historical note, Sendaria did not have the Wacite Arend
territory included in it, Sendaria is part of that territory.  After
the Asturian and Mimbrate Arends wiped out their Wacite bretheren
the Tol Nedrans wanted to keep the area more or less balkanized and
somehow caused Sendaria to be formed out of part of the Wacite
holdings.

>Sendarians being the most disgustingly honest and practical people
>around, I find it perfectly reasonable (in that world) that the
>funds are still there.  Especially as I doubt it really takes much
>money to run Sendaria.

My problem with the situation has to do with the Sendarian
practicality.  It would have been a very practical thing to do to
declare that since the Wacite realm no longer exists, then any
Wacite titles are no longer valid.

Covert C Beach
PO Box 6585
E. Lansing, MI 48826-6585
..{ihnp4,pur-ee,umich,itivax,super,well}!msudoc!beach.UUCP
beach@msudoc.egr.mich-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 10:38:46 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Little Known Authors (long)

While we're pointing out books fun for the distaff side to read, may
I recommend the story with the rather off-putting title: "How I
Saved the World" (by Philip Slater, Grove Press Fiction, (c) 1985,
First printing 1986, ISBN 0-394-62323-1 (US)).  First, it is
hilarious in many parts and fun in all.  Second, it has two strong
female characters, Louise, an Amerind "witch", and Grace, a
California lady whose description for most of the men she meets is
"necrophiliacs", and who takes the lead in _every_ relationship.
Despite the witchs and alchemists, this is more SF than fantasy.

A fun read: look for the wimp with the sword protecting the girl and
the world from a giant spider, on the cover.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 23:45:59 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!wdl1!lmurray@RUTGERS.EDU (Lance Murray)
Subject: Re: Little Known Authors (long)

   I would like to add a couple of authors to the "must read" columns.
   My favorite new female writer is Sheri Tepper. Her first SF book
was "King's Blood Four", which has since grown into a series. This
series should be interesting to fans of fantasy, with just a little
Sci-Fi thrown in.
   The second author is Wrede (I can't remember her first name). She
has several books out that are all unrelated (i.e., non-serial). Her
books are not of the fast paced variety, but the sit down by a fire
place type. I hope people enjoy these books as well as I have.

Lance

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #378
Date:  8 Sep 87 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #378
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Sep 87 0949-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #378
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 378

Today's Topics:

            Books - Fall Announcements & Some Questions


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 07:04:38 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Fall Announcements listing

Every six months, Publisher's Weekly has a special jumbo issue chock
full of advertisements by all the publishers pushing the major books
of the next six months (460 pages worth, this time!). I've waded
through them, and parsed out the books I think are of interest to
folks.  My apologies in advance for typing errors, errors of
omission, etc.

A few notes: first, some titles aren't pushed in the ads or other
material in PW. Second, not all publishers mark their genre books
(or mark them incorrectly -- Asimov, for instance is a mainstream
author as far as Doubleday is concerned. Because of this, I'm sure I
missed stuff either because I didn't recognize the title, the
author, or because the publisher didn't mention it.

Also, dates vary by publisher. Generally, hardcovers show up in the
month shown as a published date (or slightly before). Paperbacks
show up the latter half of the month before. Schedules are subject
to change without notice of course, and books will be late or
cancelled at the whim of the publisher. I can name at least six
books announced for the Macintosh six months ago that disappeared
without a trace, excluding the ones on DBase Mac (which ALSO
disappeared without a trace, taking the books with it). Some
publishers are less rigorous with their schedules than others:
Donning/Starblaze, for instance, should be trusted only after a book
hits the stores.

This edition of the announcements is rushed, since I want to get it
out before I split for worldcon.  So if things are out of order or
typoed, I hope you understand. It was sloppy or a month late.  Hope
this is of use to you folks!

This listing brought to you courtesy of Fictional Reality, Ultd,
publishers of OtherRealms, the bleeding fingers of Chuq Von Rospach,
and Publisher's Weekly, collator of 460 pages of tiny type and
author's pictures.

Unless otherwise noted, books are paperbacks.

[comments in swquare brackets are by me.]

Fall Announcments -- SF/Fantasy/Horror

[The summer months have been pretty blah in the genre, nothing
really reaching out and grabbing me except the new Benford. It
looks, however, like the next four or five months will have a number
of blockbusters and really good books -- enough to rebuild the
backlog to the point where I'll never got through it. A mixed
blessing, I think...

Also, Author Services, Inc. had a full page add saluting L. Ron
Hubbard for his Mission Earth series, which has topped 1,000,000
copies in hardcover (split across seven books). Even if it is
schlock, that's a serious accomplishment.

If the list looks shorter than the spring list did, it is. I didn't
have time to track down the obscure publishers or titles that
weren't obvious, and there isn't as much push on the paperback side
as last time -- the major original publications seem to have shifted
back to hardcover to a good degree, a big change from a couple of
years ago.

Pricing trends. Paperbacks seem to be holding steady at $2.95 for
reprints and second level authors, $3.50-$3.95 for front line
authors. Some books, especially those marketed as mainstream, may
edge to $4.50 or $4.95, but most publishers seem unwilling to take a
genre book past $4.00. Thanks Ghod for small favors.  Hardback
prices seem to be edging up, however, and expect $16.95 and $18.95
to be the base prices, with major works edging to $21.95; except for
Doubleday, which seems to be putting it's authors in second class
covers, book club bindings, and icky paper for $12.95. Rumor has it
that doubleday is going to be cleaned up by its new owners
(Bertlesmann) and that they may actually start treating their
authors like people.

Del Rey books (both paperback and hardback) are consistently more
expensive than other publishers these days, and I don't believe the
quality is there to justify it. Since Judy-Lynn Del Rey died, the
quality of the house has dropped dramatically -- it now finds itself
the high-end publisher with little high-end material. I'm not sure
they can sustain the prices: could a shakeup be in the wings? My
personal feeling is that Del Rey will be folded back into Ballantine
within the next couple of years...

for better or worse (generally better) the genre trade paperback
seems to be dead. Few are being published, because the publishers,
with few exceptions, seem to have failed to convince folks that a
$8.00 trade paperback is somehow 'better' and a $3.50 mass market.
(One exception would be Bradley's Mist's of Avalon, which is simply
too big for normal mass market and can't be split into pieces)]

Arbor House:

Land of Dreams. James Blaylock. Available now, hardcover.

Sign of chaos. Roger Zelazny. September. The new Amber. SFBC main
selection.hardcover. [low price -- could be a very thing book...]

Soldiers of Paradise. Paul Park. Hardcover

The Architecture of Fear. Kathryn Cramer and Peter D. Pautz, Ed.
Horror. October hardcover

The Bridge of Lost Desire. Samuel Delaney. November. hardcover.

Swordspoint. Ellen Kushner. Hardcover.

The Rod of Light. Barrington J. Bayley. December. Hardcover.

An Alien Light. Nancy Kress. January. Hardcover.

Bones of the Moon. Jonathon Carroll. January. Hardcover.

Ballantine Trade Paperbacks:

Welcome to Moonbase: The Moonbase Orientation manual. Ben Bova.
November, trade paperback.

Ballantine Hardcovers

The Lady. Anne McCaffrey. Hardcover. November

Del Rey hardcovers:

The Black Unicorn. Terry Brooks. Hardcover. October. [sequel to
Magic Kingdom for Sale! Sold!]

A Man rides Through. Mordant's Need, Volume II. Stephen R Donaldson.
Hardcover. November. [sequel to Mirror of her Dreams]

Industrial Light & Magic: The Art of Special Effects. Thomas Smith.
November. [a gorgeous book, worth thinking about]

Texas Triumphant. Daniel Da Cruz.  Hardcover, December.

Michael Whelan's Works of Wonders. Michael Whelan.  Hardcover,
December.

Being a Green Mother. Piers Anthony.  Hardcover. [Book 5 of
incarnations of immortality, the last one being published by Del
Rey]

Bantam :

Chernobyl: A Novel. Frederik Pohl. Available Now, hardcover
[strictly speaking, mainstream by a major Sf author] BOMC selection.

The Stainless Steel Rat gets Drafted. Harry Harrison. Hardcover,
October.

Life During Wartime. Lucius Shepard. Trade paperback. October.

A Mask for the General. Lisa Goldstein.  Hardcover, November.

Great Sky River. Gregory Benford. Hardcover, December. [I'm really
looking forward to this one. Benford thinks it's one of his best]

The Universe. Byron Press, ed. November. [collaboration between
scientists and SF writers about various things in the universe.]

Bonus Books:

The TENth Planey. Leo Melamed. Trade paperback. "Imaginative Sci-Fil
Mystery" says the blurb. [uh, oh. genre from a non-genre publisher.]

Bridge Publications:

Disaster. L. Ron Hubbard. Mission Earth #8. Available Now.

Villainy Victorious. L. Ron Hubbard. Mission Earth. Ships August 10.
[although I didn't see it this weekend, but I wasn't looking. Real
Soon Now?]

The Doomed Planet. L. Ron Hubbard. ME #10. Ships October 5.

[from the ad: "what gift will Booksellers get after Christmas? Two
hints: one millino are shipping and they're all wrapped in paper; it
is by the #1 best selling SF author." details to be in the 10/16
Publisher's Weekly. Of course they mean the paperback version of
Mission Eeath #1, of course...]

Carroll & Graf:

334. Thomas Disch. September.

Behold the Man. Michael Moorcock. October [classic coming back into
print]

The Terminal Beach. J.G. Ballard. November.

Time out of Joint by P.K. Dick. December.

The Dreaming Jewels by Ted Sturgeon. January.

Roderick at Random. John Sladek. February.

[my God, what a lineup. If your store doesn't carry Carroll & Graf
(and few chains do, BTW) find a new store.  Each of these books is a
buy]

Comico:

Night and the Enemy. Harlan Ellison & Ken Steacy. Graphic novel.

Congdon & Weed:

Isaac Asimov Presents: Caliban Landing. Steven Popkes. Hardcover,
November.

Isaac Asimov Presents: Pennterra. Judith Moffett. Hardcover,
October.

Isaac Asimov Presents: Station Gehenna. Andrew Weiner. Hardover,
September.

[IAP is actually edited by Gardnew Dozois, who also edits Isaac
Asimov's SF Magazine]

Doubleday:

Carr, Terry. Cirque: A Novel of the Far Future. Hardcover,
September.  [The late Carr's best work, finally coming back into
print]

Darkspell. Katherine Kerr. Hardcover, September. [Sequel to
Daggerspell, one of the better Fantasy's of the year. If you have
never heard of it, don't feel bad -- Doubleday is well known for
publishing and ignoring really good authors]

Fantastic Voyage II: Destination Brain. Isaac Asimov. October.
200,000 first printing [for reference, Bill Cosby's new book has a
1,750,000 first printing, which is truly insane], BOMC selection.
Paperback rights to Bantam. [would you believe that wehn you call
doubleday publicity about Isaac Asimov, you'll run into publicity
hacks that say "Is he one of ours?"]

Shadows 10. Charles Grant, ed. October [listed as an SF book. It's
horror. Of cource, Fantastic Voyage II is listed as mainstream, when
it's SF. But this is Doubleday...]

Carter, Lin. Horror Wears Blue. [listed as SF] November.

Feist, Raymond. Faerie Tale. March. [Fantasy, on the mainstream
lists]

Franklin Watts:

Merlin. Norma Lorre Goodrich. January. [A new look at the Arthurian
legend.  Looks promising, 20,000 first printing]

Harcourt Brace Jovanovich:

Synergy 1. George Zebrowski. [a new SF anthology]. October.

Starblaze Graphics:

Thieves' World Graphics 5. Asprin & Abbey (B&W graphic novel)

A Distant Soil 1: Immigrant's Song. Colleen Doran [if legal problems
with WaRP/Apple/Richard Pini are worked out -- this is already VERY
late]

Duncan & Mallory #2: The Bar None Ranch. Robert Asprin & Mel. White.

Buck Godot 2: PSmIth by Phil Foglio

Duncan & Mallory 3: The Raiders. Asprin & White.

Gate of Ivrel 1: Claiming Rites. Jane Fancher from C.J. Cherryh
novel.

Gate of Ivrel 2: Fever Dreams. Fancher.

[all are color graphic novels unless otherwise stated.  Starblaze
was smart enough to not put dates on them since they never meet them
anyway. Distant Soil is in litigation between Pini and Starblaze
because Pini seems to be under the impression he still owns Doran,
or her soul, or something.  Seems to be typical Pini egotism at
work...]

University of Texas Press:

Alkaline rocks and Carbonatites of the World part 1: North and South
America. Alan Wooley. Hardcover. Available now.

TSR :

The Wild Years 1946-1955. Martin H. Greenberg. August [anthology of
classic stories from Amazing SF].

Tales of the Weird & Wondrous. Patrick L. Price & Martin H.
Greenberg.  [Anthology of stories from Fantastic Stories magazine]

The Strange Voyage of Kian the Mariner. Harold Bakst. A windwalker
book (same imprint as Bimbos of the Death Sun). This is a "light,
lively fantasy"

Ace Science Fiction & Fantasy:

The Gate of the Cat. Andre Norton. October. 14th Witch world book.

Time Pressure. Spider Robinson. October. [Time travel. What little
promo material I've seen isn't impressive]

The City in the Autumn Stars. Michael Moorcock. November. [Sequel to
The WarHound and the World's Pain]

On Stranger Tides. Tim Powers. November. [Historical Fantasy about
Blackbeard -- pirates seem to be a new sub-trend]

Tor:

Tales of the Witchworld. Andre Norton. Shared world anthology set on
witchworld. September.

The Forge of God. Greg Bear. September. ["Earth invaded by an
interstellar research probe gone mad"]

The Dark Descent. David Hartwell, Ed. October. 60 stories by major
horror writers.

The Urth of the New Sun. Gene Wolfe. October. Sequel to Book of the
New Sun series.

Ace SF and Fantasy paperbacks:

When the Changewindes blow. Jack Chalker, September. Soul Rider
series.

Thieves' World novel #4: Shadowspawn. Andrew J. Offutt. September
[Shadowspawn is back! yaay!]

Isaac Asimov's Robot City 2: suspicion. Mike McQuay.

Man of Two Worlds. Frank and Brian Herbert. October.

Burning Chrome. William gibson. October [better than neuromance, if
you ask me]

Thieves' World #10. Afermath. The shared world anthology continues.
November.

Eye. Frank Herbert. November. Collection.

Isaac Asimov's Robot City #3: Cyborg. William F. Wu. November. [book
3 of six in another series with Asimov's name on it, and nothing
else...]

The Dragon in the Sword. Michael Moorcock. December. The first new
Eternal Champion story in 15 years.

A Difficulty with Dwarves. Craig Shaw Gardner. December. [Related to
the very funny Ebenezum trilogy]

Dayworld Rebel. Philip Jose Farmer. January. Paperback of Putnam
hardcover.

Bantam Spectra:

Winter in Eden. Harry Harrison. September.

Undersea. Paul hazel. September. [Reprint of second volume of
Finnbranch trilogy]

Garden of the shaped. Sheila finch. September. [Start of a trilogy
about a conflict between two genetically altered human races for
control of a distant planet]

Dover Beach. Richard Bowker. October.

Wild Cards: Jokers Wild. G. R. r. Martin, ed. #3 in a shared world
anthology series.

The Goldcamp Vampire. Elizabeth Scarborough. November.

After Long Silence, Sheri Tepper. December.

Winterking. Paul Hazel. December. Finale of Finnbranch Trilogy.

Blood of the Tiger. Rose Estes. December. [Promo sounds like an Auel
rip-off]

Forging the Darksword: Volume one of the The Kardword Trilogy.
Margeret Weis and Tracy Hickman. January. [Another fantasy trilogy.
Oh, boy!]

DAW:

Trekmaster. James Johnson. September.

Arrow's Flight. Mercedes Lackey. September.

Fever SEason. C.J. Cherryh. October.

Year's Best Horror XV. Karl Wagner. October.

Red Sun of Darkover. M.Z. Bradley. November.

Year's Best Fantasy Stories: 13 Arthur W. Saha. November.

Skeen's Search. Jo Clayton. December. Conclusion of Skeen Trilogy.

Lady Blade, Lord Fighter. Sharon Green. December. [Start of new
series]

The Dragon Lord. Peter Morwood.  December. first american printing
of sequel to Demon Lord.

Exile's Gate. C.H. Cherryh. January. Concludes Morgaine series.

Del Rey paperbacks:

Foundation and Earth. Isaac Asimov. October.

Swords of the legion. Harry Turtledove. October. Finale of Lost
Legion series.

The Alexandrian Ring: Book One of the Gamester Wars. William
Forstchen.  October.

The Mirror of her dreams. Stephen Donaldson. November. [Mordant's
need #1]

Maximum Effort. G.C. Edmonson & C.M. Kotlan. November. Concludes a
trilogy started by The Cunningham Equations and The Black Magician.

Shadow. Dave Duncan. November. [Not part of a series????]

Wielding a Red Sword. Piers Anthony. November. Incarnations of
Immortality #4.

The Folk of the Air. Peter s. Beagle. November.

NAL/Signet paperbacks:

IT. Stephen King. September.

Slob. rob Miller. November. Horror.

Eyes of the dragon. Stephen King. January. [Don't YOU wish you have
the problem of an author who writes so fast his new book comes out
before the last one leaves the best sellers list?]

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 20:41:00 GMT
From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: miscl. questions

Does anyone out there know whether or not Samuel Delaney was
influenced by William S. Burroughs?  Dahlgren, in particular, seems
somewhat reminiscent of what little of Burroughs writings I am
familiar with.  Also, does anyone have a bibliography for R.A.
Lafferty?  I recently became interested in the more philosophical,
psychological, and dark SF as practiced by Delaney, Dick, and
Lafferty, and, while having good bibliographies of the first two,
have none for the third.

ami silberman
ARPA:   silber@a.cs.uiuc.edu
USENET: uiucdcs!silber
USENET: ...!{cmcl2,seismo,ihnp4}!uiucdcs!silber

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #379
Date:  9 Sep 87 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #379
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 87 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #379
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 379

Today's Topics:

              Books - Foster (3 msgs) & Roland Green &
                      Sharon Green (3 msgs) & L. Neil Smith

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 18:46:59 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: GLORY LANE by Alan Dean Foster

GLORY LANE [**]
Alan Dean Foster

If I were a cover blurb writer (and this book seems written just for
the breed), I'd describe this book as a "light-hearted romp through
the galaxy in search of the perfect mall." And oddly, that's pretty
much how the blurb writer wrote it.

Seeth, an unusually erudite punk rocker looking for excitement,
decides to raise some eyebrows at the local redneck bowling alley.
Where he meets a stereotypical nerd and a man with an unusual number
of fingers doing these amazing tricks with a bowling ball.

Strange. Who'd guess that guy was an alien. Certainly not the
airhead Valley girl they pick up during the extended chase seen
which dominates the next chapter. And then we're finally into the
meat of the book, as the plot takes the standard "Dere's-No-
Intelligent-Life-On-Dis-Planet-And-Youse-Guys-Are-Da-Poifect-Proof"
route.

Nothing exciting happens in this book. The characters wander from
scene to disconnected scene, wondering just what it is the alien has
gotten them into. And the truth about that bowling ball, presented
in just enough time to build a climax - a minor climax which falls
apart scientifically. But science has never been Foster's strong
point.

This book might - MIGHT - make it as a short story, or novelette.
But there really isn't any plot here... each scene seems designed to
let some character spout off about some inanity of Earth
civilization. Remove all these, and you have a short story. I'll
outline the short story hidden in this book here.

1. Punk rocker meets brother in bowling alley, they see strange man
doing impossible tricks with a bowling ball.

2. Aforementioned brothers, a dumb blonde, and alien hightail it to
a mall planet, giving every alien a chance to make fun of the Earth.

3. There's a space battle, with plenty more opportunities for cheap
shots.

4. There's a climax.

5. Everyone lives happily ever after.

My advice to you: Floss after reading.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 87 12:39:49 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (e.c.leeper)
Subject: GLORY LANE by Alan Dean Foster

                   GLORY LANE by Alan Dean Foster
                   Ace, 1987, ISBN 0-441-51664-5
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

   The cover of this book is certainly eye-catching and the book
seems to be marketed as another HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY,
full of funny aliens and weird happenings.  It isn't.

   Oh, there are funny aliens, and some weird things do happen, but
all in all it seems forced.  The characters read like a cast like
for a play:
   Seeth, a punk rocker
   Kerwin, a nerd
   Miranda, a Valley girl
   Rail, an alien
   Izmir, another alien
   Oomemians and Prufillians

   The story reads as if the characters all walk around with these
labels stuck on their foreheads.  By the time anything interesting
begins to happen (and about halfway through the book, things do
start happening), most readers will have given up.  Not recommended.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 20:09:12 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Review: "The Deluge Drivers"

THE DELUGE DRIVERS [*+]
Alan Dean Foster

This is the third book in the series begun with "Icerigger" and
continued in "Mission to Moulokin".  Our Hero, Ethan Fortune, has
just returned to Brass Monkey, the busy human outpost on the ice
world Tran-ky-ky, on the icerigger "Slanderscree", crewed by the
native Tran.

Just as it looks like he might finally get offworld (he was
marooned, with Skua September and a few others, on Tran-ky-ky in
"Icerigger"), human scientists discover a strange anomaly near the
southern pole that's warming the planet - and could end up killing
most native life.

Since regulations prevent the scientists from using modern equipment
to find the cause, they manage to finagle Fortune, September and the
crew of the "Slanderscree" into taking them there in the icerigger.

Like many of Foster's books, the situation seems extremely contrived
in order to force the characters to do exactly the sort of things
you'd expect. There are no surprises in this book, the characters
all act according to type, and the plot moves too slowly between the
few action sequences.  The Tran are so different from the normal
native life that it's difficult to see how they could evolve there.
Characters fade in and out without warning, sometimes after having
just been told that they are IMPORTANT (!!), although we're never
shown just why.

A number of minor errors flaw the book. In one place, the Tran have
a head motion for nodding - up and down, and Fortune notes that this
is something they share with humans.  But later in the book they
start nodding differently - and Fortune notes that this is one of
the many differences when dealing with alien races. Especially
across entire chapters.

The natives drink melted ice as a matter of course, but have great
trouble identifying it later in the story, finally concluding it is
"ice's corpse". Even though in the second book there are free
standing pools of water near volcanic vents, certainly noted by a
large portion of the crew, and a great underground sea as well.

This book would have been perfect thirty years ago, but the plot and
characters seem dated now.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 19:24:13 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60HC)
Subject: Roland Green's Wandoring books (was Re: Sequels)

Courtenay Footman writes:
>Longest awaited: Fifth (and final?) book in Roland Green's Wandor
>series.  Fourth book was published in 1981; back page of that book
>has advertisement for rest of series, states that "Wandor's Sword"
>is "coming soon".
>
>Roland Green is the most annoying writer of SF/fantasy publishing
>today.  He writes reasonably good stuff, but has no less than five
>(5) different series going, and he has never finished anything,
>just started new series.  The Wandor books are his oldest stuff,
>and are quite good "military" fantasy; Green is one of the best
>current authors at depicting large scale mideval battles.

I must disagree with the Wandor books being "good" anything.  It's
true that he's about the only author I know who describes battles
using terms familiar to the mideval battle historian.  That's about
all I can say for him.

Other than that, I can't stand his writting.  The characters are not
believable especially those of different cultures.  For example, the
"good guys" in the books have an army made of the warriors of
several different cultures each having their own leaders.  At one
time, the leaders get together to plot strategy (by sheer
coincidence, all the leaders are married couples all of whom are
relatively young, but I suppose that's beside the point).

Anyway, these leaders get together in a castle and discuss what to
do.  One would expect difficulties in these negotiations because of
the massive diferences in culture, fighting styles, etc.  That isn't
exactly what happens.  What does happen is something more like a
group of yuppies getting together for pre-dinner cocktails.

I finally got disgusted with them and sold them back to the
bookstore.  I have bought over a thousand sf books and these are the
only ones that I have sold back to a book store.  (I'd like to sell
the later Gor books (I have up to about #11 or 12), but the stores
refuse to take them.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 Aug 87 12:39:47 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (e.c.leeper)
Subject: Sharon Green Interview

                    Sharon Green Speaks at NJSFS
                    Comments by Evelyn C. Leeper
                  Copyright 1987 Evelyn C. Leeper

     Sharon Green spoke at the August 15 meeting of the New Jersey
Science Fiction Society.  She is a New Jersey resident and the
author of 13 novels, including the Jalav series (THE CRYSTALS OF
MIDA, AN OATH TO MIDA, CHOSEN OF MIDA, THE WILL OF THE GODS, and TO
BATTLE THE GODS), the Terrilian series THE WARRIOR WITHIN, THE
WARRIOR ENCHAINED, THE WARRIOR REARMED, and THE WARRIOR CHALLENGED),
the Diana Santee series (MIND GUEST and GATEWAY TO XANADU), THE
REBEL PRINCE, and THE FAR SIDE OF FOREVER.  Since her first novels
were advertised with the catch phrase "If you like John Norman,
you'll like Sharon Green," I was curious to find out what she was
REALLY like.

     She wasn't what I expected.  Since her books just started
appearing a few years ago, I expected someone in her early thirties.
But Green did not start writing fresh out of college--or before--and
was older than that.  I expected...well, I'm not sure what I
expected, but the advertising phrase was foremost in my mind.  And,
not surprisingly, someone asked her about it.

     Green had been a science fiction reader for a long time when
one day she saw some John Norman novels in the store.  She had heard
about them, in a vague sort of way, and since there seemed to be
quite a few out, she figured she'd give one a try and picked SLAVE
GIRL OF GOR.  After reading it, she decided that she could do better
(well, there are those who claim that almost ANYONE could do better,
but let it pass...) and so began writing.  After she had finished
three novels she took MIND GUEST to Donald Wollheim at DAW Books.
He read it and asked if she had any other, so she brought forward
CRYSTALS OF MIDA and THE WARRIOR WITHIN.  He bought those also.
Then he called her with a proposition.  He told her that since there
were 2-1/2 million Gor books in print, and since her books were
similar, he would like to advertise them with the phrase "If you
like John Norman...."  Well, she thought about 2-1/2 million books
in print and said yes.  But after the first few, when she became
established in her own right, the phrase was dropped.

     Green was not as accomplished a speaker as many that NJSFS has
gotten.  She tended to ramble from one idea to another, as though
she didn't have a prepared speech.  She drifted back to discussing
the martial arts a lot, particularly karate, in which she is
trained.  (I've noticed this about a lot of martial artists--they
like to talk about it.)  She talked about her characters
representing both "strong female" and "helpless female," though none
are helpless in the same way as Norman's female characters are.  I
admit that I have read little of her work--frankly, the advertising
phrase worked in reverse for me--but I did read the beginning
chapters of CRYSTALS OF MIDA in prepartion for this talk and was not
greatly impressed.  It seemed very much a mirror image of a John
Norman novel of recent vintage, complete with sex and violence.  Ho
hum.  Knowing it was written as a response to Norman helps explain
this, but I would not rush right out to read it in spite of this
knowledge.  Her latest, THE FAR SIDE OF FOREVER, is described as a
straight fantasy and presumably has less in common with things
Gorean.  Though I suspect I would find Green's emphasis on the
martial arts not to my tastes, I might suggest that those who favor
those sports give her Diana Santee series a try.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Aug 87 13:51:30 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Sharon Green Interview

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes:
> Though I suspect I would find Green's emphasis on the martial arts
> not to my tastes, I might suggest that those who favor those
> sports give her Diana Santee series a try.

I normally find a martial arts orientation in a story to be a plus,
but I must say I didn't really see it in the first of the Diana
Santee series.  Diana Santee's internal dialogue as depicted in the
story seems to be equal parts ego trip and gratuitous
rationalizations for doing what she wanted to do anyway.  Santee
basically gets continually clobbered over the head by plot twists
that the reader can see coming a mile away, and thus comes off as
stupid and arrogant instead of competent and forceful.

Only my humble opinion, of course.
But I've given up on Sharon Green for now.

Wayne Throop
mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 87 19:38:04 GMT
From: mimsy!cvl!rlgvax!hadron!inco!mack@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Mack)
Subject: Re: Sharon Green Interview

I read a couple of Sharon Green's early books. Almost. The second
one (possibly _The Warrior Within_) was so bad I couldn't finish it,
which is extremely rare for me. The Gor books are pretty bad, but
her stuff was much worse. Has it gotten any better?

Dave Mack
McDonnell Douglas-Inco, Inc.
8201 Greensboro Drive
McLean, VA 22102
(703)883-3911
...!seismo!sundc!hadron!inco!mack

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 87 04:05:16 GMT
From: lindsay@K.CS.CMU.EDU (Donald Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Alternate universe in Colorado

>>L. Neil Smith's "The Probability Broach" won a libertarian award
>>as best book of the year (a few years ago). They must have been
>>awfully hard up: it's got bad writing, bad science, bad plotting,
>>and bad polical theory going for it. Other than that I suppose it
>>was (at most) OK.
> Maybe you consider anarcho-libertarianism "bad political theory",
>but you can hardly expect the promoters of an award specifically
>for libertarian writing to agree. It could be, you know, that they
>consider YOUR politics "bad".

AHA! Someone bit !

Actually, for me, the interesting aspect of the book was the
depiction of a libertarian society. Now, there is certainly a trend
in the world towards "privatisation". Clearly, the existence of
prisons, and the existence of fire departments, and so on, no longer
necessarily implies the existence of what we now understand as
"government".

Unfortunately, the author wanted a story where there was NO
government. But, in certain places, he couldn't find a convincing
way to eliminate government.  One solution is to have brilliant new
ideas. (It would of course be my solution - and yours too no doubt
-:) ).  Another solution would be to just wave my arms, or just
slide around the trouble spots. A third solution was used: just
present an unconvincing and unworkable solution. Well, you know,
that's bad for my suspension of disbelief. And, Bad Political
Theory.

I'm going to take this opportunity to complain about some generic
Bad Science.  I call it the Phaser Effect. You know - Captain Kirk
zaps somebody, and the body vanishes, and the clothes vanish, but
the deck is unmarked. Now, just how did the phaser bolt know where
to stop ? Can it tell the difference between a boot and a carpet ?
What technology would Spock logically infer if he ever noticed the
Phaser Effect ?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #380
Date:  9 Sep 87 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #380
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 87 0905-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #380
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 380

Today's Topics:

              Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & May (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Aug 87 17:29:31 GMT
From: kdmoen@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Doug Moen)
Subject: Speedtalk

dmb@morgoth.UUCP (David M. Brown) writes:
>AUI is pronuonced "ah-ooh-ee" and is supposed to be the language
>that spacemen use.  I don't mean Earthlings, either!  Supposedly,
>this language uses simple sounds to convey simple concepts, and
>then links them together to form words for which the mere sound
>conveys the meaning.  For example, I recall that the sound "ih"
>(soft i) meant 'light'.

As long as we're being wierd, does anybody remember Speedtalk from
the story "Gulf" by Robert Heinlein?

  "Speedtalk was a structurally different speech from any the race
had ever used.  Long before, Ogden and Richards had shown that eight
hundred and fifty words were sufficient vocabulary to express
anything that could be expressed by "normal" human vocabularies,
with the aid of a handful of special words--a hundred odd--for each
special field, such as horse racing or ballistics.  About the same
time phoneticians had analyzed all human tongues into about a
hundred-odd sounds, represented by the letters of a general phonetic
alphabet.
  "On these two propositions Speedtalk was based.
  "To be sure, the phonetic alphabet was much less in number than
the words in Basic English.  But the letters representing sound in
the phonetic alphabet were each capable of variation several
different ways--length, stress, pitch, rising, falling.  The more
trained an ear was the larger the number of possible variations; the
was no limit to variations, but, without much refinement of accepted
phonetic practice, it was possible to establish a one-to-one
relationship with Basic English so that one phonetic symbol was
equivalent to an entire word in a "normal" language, one Speedtalk
word was equal to an entire sentence.  The language consequently was
learned by letter units rather than by word units--but each word was
spoken and listened to as a single structured gestalt.
  "But Speedtalk was not "shorthand" Basic English.  "Normal"
languages, having their roots in days of superstition and ignorance,
have in them inherently and unescapably wrong structures of mistaken
ideas about the universe.  One can think logically in English only
by extreme effort, so bad it is as a mental tool.  For example, the
verb "to be" in English has twenty-one distinct meanings, *every
single one of which is false-to-fact*.
  "A symbolic structure, invented instead of accepted without
question, can be made similar in structure to the real-world to
which it refers.  The structure of Speedtalk did *not* contain the
hidden errors of English; it was structured as much like the real
world as the New Men could make it.  For example, it did not contain
the unreal distinction between nouns and verbs found in most other
languages.  The world--the continuum known to science and including
all human activity--does not contain "noun things" and "verb
things"; it contains space-time events and relationships between
them.  The advantage for achieving truth, or something more nearly
like truth, was similar to the advantage of keeping account books in
Arabic numerals rather than Roman.
  "All other languages made scientific, multi-valued logic almost
impossible to achieve; in Speedtalk it was as difficult *not* to be
logical.  Compare the pellucid Boolean logic with the obscurities of
the Aristolelian logic it supplanted.
  "Paradoxes are verbal, do not exist in the real world--and
Speedtalk did not have such built into it.  Who shaves the Spanish
Barber?  Answer: follow him around and see.  In the syntax of
Speedtalk the paradox of the Spanish Barber could not even be
expressed, save as a self-evident error.

When I first read this in high school, I thought it was fascinating.
In retrospect, it's easy enough to attack the details of Heinlein's
proposal (eg, his references to the discredited theory of General
Semantics).

However, I still think it might be possible to construct an
artificial language that is a significant improvement over English.
Esperanto tries to do something like this, of course, but the
improvements are limited to a simple, regular system of spelling and
grammar that make the language easier to learn.  What I have in mind
is something deeper.

A large proportion of our thoughts are verbal; they are expressed in
terms of natural language.  I am thinking in English while I am
reading or writing, planning my activities for the day, solving
various day-to-day problems, etc.  Now, we know from specialized
domains like mathematics and computer science that the choice of
notation can have a critical effect on ones abilities to solve
problems expressed in that notation.  Long division is much easier
to perform using Arabic rather than Roman numerals.  Most kinds of
computer programming are much easier to do in Smalltalk rather than
in assembly language.

If the same thing is true of natural languages, then it should be
possible to design a new language which, once mastered, can enhance
ones abilities to think, reason and solve problems.

Any takers?

Doug Moen
University of Waterloo Computer Graphics Lab
UUCP:     {ihnp4,watmath}!watcgl!kdmoen
INTERNET: kdmoen@cgl.waterloo.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 14:15:42 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Speedtalk (and Loglan)

kdmoen@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Doug Moen) writes:
> As long as we're being wierd, does anybody remember Speedtalk
> from the story "Gulf" by Robert Heinlein?

Yup.  But more interesting to me is Loglan, also mentioned by Robert
Heinlein in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

> [...] it should be possible to design a new language which, once
> mastered, can enhance ones abilities to think, reason and solve
> problems.

Loglan is the result of an attempt by James Cooke Brown to design
such a language, and thus support the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (that
the language one speaks strongly influences how one thinks) by
providing a proof-by-example that such effects occur.  The language
grammar and vocabulary were created, along with rules for extending
these in a regular manner.  As near as I can tell, speaking Loglan
would really be much like speaking in native predicate calculus.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find out what has happened to
the Loglan institute.  Anybody out there hear anything recently?

Wayne Throop
mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 17:12:10 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Speedtalk

Aaargh! If there's anything I hate worse than pseudoscience, it's
seeing good science trashed as pseudoscience by people who don't
know what they're talking about...

kdmoen@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Doug Moen) writes:
> (eg, his references to the discredited theory of General
> Semantics).

You may think General Semantics is `discredited', but in fact it is
alive and well and has been a seminal influence in half a dozen
sciences over the last quarter century. A partial list:

   Gregory Bateson, the renowned interdisciplinarian and systems
   thinker who wrote "Steps towards an Ecology of Mind." and
   co-founder of the Esalen Institute, explicitly acknowledged his
   debt to GS in print. I believe he even dedicated one or more of
   his books to Alfred Korzybski, founder of GS.

   Grindler and Bandler, authors of "The Structure of Magic" and
   originators of Neuro-Linguistic Programming, have spoken
   frequently of their debt to GS. NLP is generally conceded by
   those who know about it to be the hottest new therapeutic method
   of the last quarter-century. I have heard even hard-shell
   Freudians compare it in potential with Siggy's original
   development of the original "talking cure"!

   The entire field of psycholinguistics, from Otto Jesperson and
   Virginia Sapir on down, is *founded* on a Korzybskian model of
   cognition.

   The structuralist school of anthropology (and related movements
   in the humanities) incorporates a bunch of GS-derived ideas in
   its theoretical foundations.

   Some of the General Semantics apothegms have percolated into the
   general culture, unfortunately without credit to the
   originator(s). If you've ever heard anyone say "The map is not
   the territory; the word is not the thing defined." they were
   quoting Korzybski, although they probably didn't know it. Ditto
   for "Reality is a process, not a thing.".

The bad rep GS has got among a lot of academics is completely
undeserved. It's not Korzybski's fault that L. Ron Hubbard seized on
GS as a handy tool back when he was founding Scientology (it has
since been largely dropped). It isn't Korzybski's fault, either,
that A.E. Van Vogt used it as a McGuffin in a series of pretentious
space operas. But these accidents of history dominate GS's image
among most of those who've heard of it at all. It usually gets
written off as some kind of vaguely mystical claptrap.

In fact, GS is and has always been exactly what Korzybski claimed --
a "science of sanity" that teaches you how to avoid various kinds of
mental malfunction by illuminating the difference between
experiential reality and the linguistic representations we use for
it. This line of inquiry, of course, traces back to the
philosophy-by-linguistic-analysis of Wittgenstein and the Vienna
Group.

But Korzybski's vital contribution was to pull these insights out of
the philosophical stratosphere and apply them to understanding the
everyday functioning of ordinary human beings. It is very sad that
his pioneering efforts have been so obscured that Mr. Moen can
casually describe them as `discredited', at the same time that his
students are opening up tremendous new vistas in the sciences and
some of his most important innovations have become common
intellectual currency.

Korzybski was the first person to focus attention on the folly of
thinking in classical two-valued logic in a world of uncertainty and
incomplete data; the first to point out for a general audience that
noun-like abstractions are invariably lies; the first to make
(albeit in different terms) the deep-structure vs. shallow-structure
distinction so critical in modern linguistics.

I *strongly* recommend to Mr. Moen and others interested in
linguistics, psychology or simply getting the best use out of one's
cognitive equipment that they forget the stench of Van Vogt and
Hubbard and investigate General Semantics *itself*. I had the good
fortune to be exposed to GS in my early teens fifteen years or so
ago, and believe it has done more to help me use my mind effectively
than any other single part of my background (not excluding my major
in theoretical mathematics and minor in philosophy!).

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
Phone: (215)-296-5718
{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 05:40:32 GMT
From: mpm@hpfcmp.hp.com (Mike McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Re: Speedtalk (and Loglan)

Re:  language as guidance for problem solving

     Beware putting overmuch trust in the Whorfian Hypothesis that
language governs/dictates what we (can) think.  Benjamin Whorf is/
was a psycholinguist often cited in psychology and linguistics
textbooks.  An oft-cited example of his is that Eskimos have 20- odd
words for snow while we have but one.  While I think Whorf used this
as an example of the importance of an item (snow) in one culture
(Eskimo), some folks have gone much further.

     Jack Vance wrote a novel called "The Languages of Pao" based on
an extreme interpretation of Whorf's hypothesis.  In this book,
Vance describes a planet where a group of offworld scientists
attempt social engineering by isolating the inhabitants in several
groups and teaching the resulting populations languages that are
structured to facilitate certain careers and constrain
correspondingly constrain the disruptive effects of "nonconformist"
behavior.  Very thought-provoking reading.

Mike McCarthy
{ihnp4,ucbvax,hplabs}!hpfcla!mpm

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 87 18:16:50 GMT
From: harvard!linus!dartvax!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek [rn] LeLash)
Subject: New Julian May novel

A new novel by Julian May, called _Intervention_, and set some time
before the events of the "Pliocene Exile" series, has just been
released.  My quick flipping through it revealed it to be about
earlier generations of the Remillard family.  Has anyone out there
read this yet?  Comments?  Was any part of it set here (at
Dartmouth, where according to the "P. E." books much psychic
research was done)?

Derek LeLash
dartvax!derek
derek@dartmouth.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 87 07:54:57 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: New Julian May novel

derek@dartvax.UUCP (Derek [rn] LeLash) writes:
>A new novel by Julian May, called _Intervention_, and set some time
>before the events of the "Pliocene Exile" series, has just been
>released.  My quick flipping through it revealed it to be about
>earlier generations of the Remillard family.

I thought most of the events of "P.E." happened 6 million years ago,
and this next one is supposed to be set in the near (relatively)
future.  So which one is set before which?

:-), of course.

Seriously, I'm glad to hear it's out. I thought the first series was
wonderful. (Not great, perhaps, but *quite* entertaining.) Hardcover
only, I suppose, though. :-(

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
{rutgers,amdahl}!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 87 22:11:50 GMT
From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK)
Subject: Re: New Julian May novel

derek@dartvax.UUCP (Derek [rn] LeLash) writes:
>A new novel by Julian May, called _Intervention_, and set some time
>before the events of the "Pliocene Exile" series, has just been
>released.  My quick flipping through it revealed it to be about
>earlier generations of the Remillard family.  Has anyone out there
>read this yet?  Comments?  Was any part of it set here (at
>Dartmouth, where according to the "P. E." books much psychic
>research was done)?

I have read it, and liked it very much. Much of it was set in NH,
the White Mountains area. The metapsychic research actually took
place in several places around the world, but the most important
researcher, Denis Remillard, was (is?) at Dartmouth.

Larry Keber

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 03:40:51 GMT
From: vax1!jsm@RUTGERS.EDU (Jon Meltzer)
Subject: Re: New Julian May novel

derek@dartvax.UUCP (Derek [rn] LeLash) writes:
>A new novel by Julian May, called _Intervention_, and set some time
>before the events of the "Pliocene Exile" series, has just been
>released.  My quick flipping through it revealed it to be about
>earlier generations of the Remillard family.  Has anyone out there
>read this yet?  Comments?

Well, that was quite a shocker at the end - I haven't been so
surprised since the (original) Amber series. I wonder - did she have
that plot twist in mind when she originally planned the series?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #381
Date:  9 Sep 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #381
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #381
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 381

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Recommendations (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 15:27:31 GMT
From: ames!kccs!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: _Wizard of Earthsea_ third book

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP writes:
> I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the Earthsea
>trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate in the world of
>sword and sorcery novels. I hope that all this praise, including
>that of Mr. Farren come due to lack of exposure to the truly great
>novels/series/trilogies in this area.

First off, it isn't sword and sorcery.  Not at all.

> I would like to suggest the following few examples as being
>of that better class;
>1/. The Belgariad ( 5 books in the series) by Eddings.

Mildly entertaining, not what I would call well written.  Most of the
action is telegraphed WAY in advance, and the ending is the wimpiest
>thing I've read in YEARS.

>2/. The Magician  by Feist.

Same comments as above, mostly.  Pretty interesting ideas that don't
really have much to say about anything.

>3/. The War of Powers ( book 1 and 2 ) by Vardiman et al.

No comment, as I haven't read them.

>4/. Split Infinity trilogy by Anthony.

You're joking, right?  Puerile, sexist, and, at that, better than
most Anthony.

>I hope that I have been able to hope those who really wish to read
>some great SF books.

I would add one recommendation: GOD STALK and THE DARK OF THE MOON,
by P. C. Hodgell.  Extremely well written, and much, much better
than ANY of the books you recommend.

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 04:06:12 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Good (literary) Fantasy (was Re: Earthsea,Belgariad etc.....)

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
[re: Belgariad]
>Well, yes, kiddie fantasy is almost always predictable. [...]

Ah, another connoisseur, but you forgot a few in your list ...

>So pick these up. Soon.
>
>Brust, Steven
>    Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla
>    Brokedown Palace
>    (and that one about Creation...)

The last one is _To_Reign_in_Hell_, and in my opinion is the best of
Brust's stuff (literary wise).  _Brokedown_Palace_ should be rated a
very close second, followed by the Vlad books (which aren't all that
literary, but are a lot of fun).

[keys to writing a "literary work": name dropping -> make oblique
references to other great works, symbolism -> if you can't say it
with an obscure symbol, it probably isn't worth saying, literary
devices -> lots of allegory/metaphor/similie, they're way cool.  All
this is wasted without a rich, multi-level plot and intricate
character developement.  Dialog is optional, but if included, it
better be good.]

>Chalker, Jack
>    "Dancing Gods" series              (both are parodies of fantasy)
>    And the Devil Will Drag You Under

The "Dancing Gods" books are o.k., Devil is better.  I don't know
why, but somehow Chalker always reminds me of Piers Anthony.  Yes, I
know Anthony writes trash, but maybe its something in Chalker's
style.  BTW, none of Chalker's stuff could ever be called
"literature".

>Cherryh, C. J.
>    "Morgaine" trilogy
>    Tree of Sword and Jewels           (second book)

Anything by Cherryh is fantastic.  Every time I've read one of her
books, I've never been less than impressed.  It could be that I've
only read her good stuff, but even so, I'm still impressed.

>Cook, Glen
>    "Dread Empire" series

"The Annals of the Black Company" is much better - richer plot,
stronger characterization, no "deus ex machina" (one of the worst
faults of pulp fantasy like Belgariad).  The "Darkwar" trilogy is
very good, too.

>Powers, Tim
>    The Anubis Gates
>    The Drawing of the Dark
>    To Forsake the Sky
>    Dinner at Deviant's Palace

The plot for _The_Drawing_of_the_Dark_ is kind of weak (and why does
everyone pick on King Arthur?), but it's an o.k. book. _Dinner_at_
Deviant's_Palace_ is sci-fi, not fantasy, but it's very good.

>Zelazny, Roger
>    The Changeling, Madwand
>    Dilvish the Damned, The Changing Land
>    Nine Princes in Amber, et.al.
>    Lord of Light
>    Creatures of Light and Darkness
>    Last Defender of Camelot           (ss, some fantasy)
>    Unicorn Variations                 (ditto)

Zelazny's a lot of fun to read, but all his main characters are
demi-gods.  You've also left out a few of his sf books that are much
better than most of these.  In order of merit: _Lord_of_Light_
(really fantasy as sf), _Dream_Master_ (sf), _Doorways_in_the_Sand_
(sf), _Madwand_ (much better than _Changeling_, but second in the
series).

Here's a few more from off the top of my head -

John Myers Myers'
   _Silverlock_ - A literary nerd travels though the great works of
   literature.  Not very enjoyable if you haven't read at least a
   few good books, fantastic otherwise.
   _The_Moon's_Fire-Eating_Daughter_ - The same, but for poetry.
   _The_Harp_and_the_Blade_ - just good fantasy.

Guy Gavriel Kay's Trilogy
   _The_Wandering_Fire_, _The_Summer_Tree_, & _The Longest_Road_ -
   a little heavy with the tragic prose, but otherwise very good.

John Ford's
   _The_Dragon_Waiting_ - historical fantasy set in the age
   of the Byzantine Empire.

Ian Watson's
   "Black Current" books - fantasy disguised as sf.

Sherri Tepper's novel
   _The_Revenants_ - much better than her "True Game" books.

R.A. MacAvoy's Trilogy
   _Damiano_, _Daniano's_Lute_, & _Raphael_ - very good.

And here's an author not to read: Terry Brooks.  If you think Piers
Anthony is bad, you'll think this guy is horrible.  He writes like a
kindergartener finger-paints.  Well, maybe not, the kindergartner
is at least original.  His trilogy (I forgot the name) is
practically a transliteration of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.  This
is one that I'm glad I borrowed, not bought.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 87 12:11:59 cdt
From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>
Subject: Re: Good Fantasy (was Earthsea/Belgariad flames)

My recommendations for excellent fantasy, with plots that are not
rehashes of well-known plots, are as follows: (I won't repeat those
that have already been mentioned)

Wizard of the Pigeons       Megan Lindholm
Moonheart                   Charles deLint
Man of Gold                 M.A.R. Barker, (little known
Flamesong                   M.A.R. Barker, but excellent)
The Lord Darcy books:       Randall Garrett
   Murder and Magic
   Lord Darcy Investigates
   Too Many Magicians
Flying Sorcerers            David Gerrold and Larry Niven
Camber Trilogy              Katherine Kurtz
Deryni Trilogy              Katherine Kurtz
King Kelson Trilogy         Katherine Kurtz
Death's Master              Tanith Lee,(and anything else too.
Night's Master              Tanith Lee,(adult fantasy)
The Riddlemaster Trilogy    Patricia McKillip
War of the Wizards Tril.    Andrew Offut and Richard Lyon
  Demon in the Mirror         (Well, maybe not entirely
  Eyes of Sarsis              original, but very good
  Web of the Spider           nonetheless)
Tomoe Gozen Trilogy         Jessica Salmonson
The Mabigonion Tetralogy    Evangeline Walton
  Prince of Annwn             (well, this doesn't really
  Song of Rhiannon             count as original, but
  (I forgot)                   this is a very good
  Island of the Mighty         novelization of mythology)

Brett Slocum
Honeywell Corporate Systems Dev. Div.
...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum
...uunet!hi-csc!slocum

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 87 04:01:06 GMT
From: nancy!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Belgariad/Earthsea mutterings

amphelan@nvpna1.UUCP ("Cathal Phelan 44205") writes:
> I must state my disbelief at the amount of praise for the Earthsea
>trilogy. It is completely mundane and second-rate in the world of
>sword and sorcery novels. I hope that all this praise, including
>that of Mr. Farren come due to lack of exposure to the truly great
>novels/series/trilogies in this area.

Personally I will admit to feeling that the Earthsea Trillogy was a
tad slow.  On the other hand the characters wernt 20th century types
stuck into a strange place but felt like actual products of the
culture they were suposed to be from.

Although I like both series a good deal both Katheryn Kurtz's Deryni
Universe and Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover suffer from this.
[though both have gotten better]

> I would like to suggest the following few examples as being
>of that better class;
>1. The Belgariad ( 5 books in the series) by Eddings.

I enjoyed these a lot, I found them to be a fun read.  In fact
whenever I see a new book by Eddings (or Brian Daley for that
matter) I snatch it up and take it home to enjoy with my other junk
food.

Problems with this series have been pointed out before.  (You can
see everything comming a mile away, etc...)  However I kind of liked
how Belgarath contrasted with another "ancient-advisor-to-the-Hero"
type character (Obi-wan Kenobi) when he cheerfully admits "I lied.
I do it faily often."

>2/. The Magician  by Feist.

Another fun read.  Much better characterization than the Belgariad.
The problems I had with it was it felt a bit much like a FRP World.
I'm probably biased in this because I bought several Role-Playing
aids from Medkemia Press several years before the books were
published so I KNOW this series had its origins in an FRP campaign.

Dont be put off by this if you havent read them though.  Feist is
one of the better new authors.

>3/. The War of Powers ( book 1 and 2 ) by Vardiman et al.

Actually there are six of these.  They are a throwback to the days
when SF was a sub-genre of soft-core porn.

>4/. Split Infinity trilogy by Anthony.

Until _On_A_Pale_Horse_ came out I thought this series was the best
Anthony there was.  However he still cant do a real female
character, who isnt a bitch.

As a side note, I found it amusing how in some of the more recient
Xanth Books he brags about being the best selling fantasy author
around (sad, but true).  I've read some old fanzine pieces by him
where he whines piteously about how other people make mounds of
money writing trash while he (a serious author in the genre) cant
make a living.  Can you say "sellout"?

>  I hope that I have been able to help those who really wish to
>read some great SF books.

While many of the above are fun - I wouldnt go so far as to call
them great, there all sort of like eating at McDonalds - enjoyable,
if you're a bad food mavin like me, but not to be confused with good
food - besides all of your suggestions are Fantasy.

Speaking of suggestion- another fun series that Cathal didnt mention
is Sephen Brust's Dragaeran Universe (Jhereg, Yendi, and Teckla so
far) Brust is shaping up to be even better than Feist.  He reminds
me of Zelazny at times.

Covert C Beach
PO Box 6585
E. Lansing, MI 48826-6585
..{ihnp4,pur-ee,umich,itivax,super,well}!msudoc!beach.UUCP
beach@msudoc.egr.mich-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 87 04:08:50 GMT
From: nancy!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: Re: Good Fantasy

>From: Brett Slocum <hi-csc!slocum@umn-cs>

>My recommendations for excellent fantasy,...

I felt like adding a few comments to this list.  I only have a few
weeks left before I leave the warm nest of the college town and am
thrust into the cold cruel world. (Yes, I did something stupid and
graduated..)

These comments of course are reflections on my own personal taste or
lack thereof and nothing personal is ment toward the original poster
or any of the vast multitude who will inevitably disagree with me...

[ lines beginning with >! denote books I havent read. ]

>Wizard of the Pigeons       Megan Lindholm

ZZZZZZZ, snort, ZZZZzzzz .....  This book was different, I will give
it that.  I'm not sure what it was that turned me off about it.
Maybe it was the fact that the hero was a sniviling wimp.  (Naw that
can't be it - I like the first Covenant Trilogy and the high and
mighty White Gold Weilder sniveles his way through most of that...)
Probably it was due to the fact that there wasn't anyone I could
identify with.  (At least with Covenant there were characters like
Mhoram - and if you got bored you could always "clench-race" )

>!Moonheart                   Charles deLint
>!Man of Gold                 M.A.R. Barker, (little known
>!Flamesong                   M.A.R. Barker, but excellent)
>The Lord Darcy books:       Randall Garrett
>   Murder and Magic
>   Lord Darcy Investigates
>   Too Many Magicians

I agree with this recommendation.  Some of my die-hard mystery fan
friends say that these are a bit light or don't make sense all the
time; but if you dont feel it necessary to know what is going to
happen before the end (as long as you can see in the end how the
explanation fits of course ...)  these are real good.  Another thing
I like about these is that even though a form of magic exists the
author never has it be an ESSENTIAL part of the mystery.

>Flying Sorcerers            David Gerrold and Larry Niven

Good Clean Fun...  I'm not sure if the Physics of the Star System or
the various contraptions we see would really work, but that's never
important to enjoying the story.

>Camber Trilogy              Katherine Kurtz
   [The Legends of Camber of Culdi]
   Camber of Culdi, Saint Camber, Camber the Heretic
>Deryni Trilogy              Katherine Kurtz
   [The Chronicles of the Deryni]
   Deryni Rising, Deryni Checkmate, High Deryni
>King Kelson Trilogy         Katherine Kurtz
   [The Histories of King Kelson]
   Bishop's Heir, The Kings's Justice, The Quest for Saint Camber

Those of you who were around for the big Kurtz discussion last
spring or thereabouts will remember that I like these A LOT.

However:
WARNING Will Robinson! Bummer Endings Detected! :-)
If you are not a fan of somber endings you might want to be careful
with these.  Only the first one (Deryni Rising, first in the Deryni
Trilogy) (The list above is in chronological order for the timeline,
not the order of writing) has a truely clean, happy,
no-strings-attached ending.

>Death's Master              Tanith Lee,(and anything else too.
>Night's Master              Tanith Lee,(adult fantasy)
also Delusion's Master and Delerium's Mistress, and Maybe one other.

The plots are very convoluted.  But very interesting.  I also
recommend _Red_As_Blood_ (Tales as told by the Sisters Grimmer)
which takes standard fairy tales and gives them a shrarp twist.

>The Riddlemaster Trilogy    Patricia McKillip
   The Riddlemaster of Hed, Heir of Sea and Fire (?), and Harpist in
the Wind

Light Fanatsy,  Not the most thought out world in the genre.

>>War of the Wizards Tril.    Andrew Offut and Richard Lyonf
>>  Demon in the Mirror         (Well, maybe not entirely
>>  Eyes of Sarsis              original, but very good
>>  Web of the Spider           nonetheless)
>>Tomoe Gozen Trilogy         Jessica Salmonson

>The Mabigonion Tetralogy    Evangeline Walton
>  Prince of Annwn            (well, this doesn't really
>  Song of Rhiannon             count as original, but
>  (I forgot)                   this is a very good
   The Children of Llyr      [This may be #2, I forget.]
>  Island of the Mighty         novelization of mythology)

If you want an introduction to Welsh myth these are much more
accessible than a direct translation.  Sort of like the difference
between reading le Mort de Arthur by Mallory and reading The Crystal
Cave by Mary Stewart.

If you are interested in Welsh myth and aren't a pureist.  I would
recommend another series that was written for the juvenile market.

The Chronicles of Prydain  by Lloyd Alexander
  The Book of Three
  The Black Cauldren
  The Castle of Lyr
  Taran Wanderer
  The High King

Many of the names are the same as those in the Mabinogion, but it is
closer in tone to the Lord of the Rings than Welsh Myth.
(Personalities are not preserved at all.)

Covert C Beach
PO Box 6585
E. Lansing, MI 48826-6585
..{ihnp4,pur-ee,umich,itivax,super,well}!msudoc!beach.UUCP
beach@msudoc.egr.mich-state.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #382
Date:  9 Sep 87 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #382
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 87 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #382
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 382

Today's Topics:

               Books - Herbert (10 msgs) & McCrumb &
                       McQuay & Liavek (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 23:56:40 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Chapterhouse: Dune

There's been some talk about the two "Face Dancers" at the end of
_Chapterhouse: Dune_ and a potential sequel involving them.  No one
has mentioned how anomolous these "Face Dancers" were.  For example,
the man was wearing bib overalls and was pruning roses.  Their yard
was surrounded by a white picket fence.  They really looked (and
talked) like a stereotypical American older couple doing yardwork.

My impression was that they represented the author and his wife and
the argument they are having is about whether to continue the series
or let it end.  This impression was enhanced by the eulogy to his
wife that Herbert added on the end.

Did anyone else get this impression?

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 22:54:54 GMT
From: seismo!watmath!cfretwell@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Dune

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
>>I'm glad there's no seventh volume, although my speculation was
>>that all of the Tleilaxu gholas would be revived for a final
>>curtain call, with a new Paul Atreidies finally destroying the
>>universe or some such denoument.
>
>No seventh book?  Of course, not NOW... but just think, when you
>die, your

Actually, word has it that the seventh book was started, and his son
is going to complete it for him.......

Oh well, what do I know......

Chris
cfretwell@watmath

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 87 00:48:41 GMT
From: maslak@sri-unix.arpa (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Dune

Since you mentioned gholas...

One of the several...make that many...things that annoyed me about
the movie of Dune was the short shrift they gave poor Duncan Idaho!!

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 87 10:59:03 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans
From: Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Duncan Idaho

maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>One of the several...make that many...things that annoyed me about
>the movie of Dune was the short shrift they gave poor Duncan
>Idaho!!

Not to mention the way he was type-cast!

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 13:36:55 GMT
From: aad+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Anthony A. Datri)
Subject: Re: Dune

Actually, I've heard that they're putting together a 5 hour Dune for
trendy consumer videotape release.

...probably only on bloody vhs as well.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 87 18:16:04 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Dune

maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>Since you mentioned gholas...
>
>One of the several...make that many...things that annoyed me about
>the movie of Dune was the short shrift they gave poor Duncan
>Idaho!!

I suppose it depends on which character made the biggest impression
on you from the novel.  I most missed the strong characterization of
the Shadout Mapes (my chances of spelling that correctly approximate
zero ;-).

Kent

N.B. CHeck out Jack Williamson's new novel Firechild - not too
shabby for an old man!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 17:12:22 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Dune

I really enjoyed the first 4 Dune books, though I think books I and
II could have been made into one helluva 1st book.  The same is true
for books III and IV.  Combining these two as a 2nd book would have
made much more sense (as far as I'm concerned), and lots of excess
verbiage could have been edited out!

Took me several tries to cut through the 5th book.  Too long without
any action!  The charactor Miles Teg at the end of this book sees a
couple of great times kicking the hell out of the Honered Matres,
but what else is/was there to really grip you in your seat?

The same is true for the 6th book.  I finally managed to read it,
but was again unimpressed by the excess verbiage and lack of action.
The 5th and 6th books should have been combined into a 3rd sequel
(if you get my drift).  Here was a book with excellent charactor
potential, the Ghola Duncan, the phenomenal Miles Teg (also a
Ghola), and the Worm tamer Sheana (sp?).  But nothing happens!  I
was also unimpressed with the ending.  It was predictable and dull.

If there's to be a 7th book, let's hope the action picks up a
little.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 08:21:28 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Dune redux

After Herbert's death, Locus announced tersely that he had not
started a seventh volume, and that there would not be one.  I hope
they're wrong.  I agree with the reviewer who thinks that the books
are divided up strangely, but I consider seven books as the proper
number.  The first three were conceived a unit; Herbert's published
remarkes about them make this quite clear.

God-Emperor of Dune" is a transitional book, the pivot point between
the first three, which set the stage for this evolutionary
time-line, and the last three, which presumably detail a galactic
fall or resurgence to new hights.

There are several problems that make the later books difficult to
write.  First is the comic-book problem of Power Inflation (the
Amber series also suffers from this malady, most seriously in the
new 5-book series).  That is, if you keep increasing paranormal
abilities of your characters they get to a stage where it gets tough
to plot around them, because they can get out of any situation with
some ability or other.  Herbert breaks the spell of determinism with
Siona's magic "stealth genes" that make her invisible to prescience,
but he keeps introducing new abilities and situations in profusion.
By book VI things are pretty confused.

The second problem is that there is no Paul Atriedes onstage, and
Herbert creates characters it is curiously hard to like.  Paul had
enough character, sympathy, and believability to carry the stories
forward, but his passing is missed.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 16:13:36 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Dune printings

I was re-reading Dune recently, and I noticed something that I
noticed the first couple of times through the book, but didn't think
about, but that bothered me this time, which is: every once in a
while there is a sentence, a paragraph, or a little random section
that appears to be in smaller type than everything else.  I don't
have the book with me, but it's a little paperback, not one of those
big ones, and not printed after the movie.  I thought it might be
that this was the publisher's way of correcting typesetting errors
without having to reset the entire book, but I really have no idea.
Anyone know for sure?  It bugs the hell out of me.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 87 04:02:54 GMT
From: tra4@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Jonathan H. Traum)
Subject: Re: Duncan Idaho

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>>One of the several...make that many...things that annoyed me about
>>the movie of Dune was the short shrift they gave poor Duncan
>>Idaho!!
>
>Not to mention the way he was type-cast!

Duncan was in the movie?? Let's see.... Oh, yeah. I remember now. It
went something like this:

PAUL: Hi, Duncan!
IDAHO: Hi, Paul.. AAAARRGGGGHHHH!!

Yeah, I guess Duncan did do a *little* bit more in the book than
just die.

Jonathan Traum
1304 E 54St
Chicago, Ill 60615
UUCP: ...!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!tra4
Internet: tra4@sphinx.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 18:17 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Sharyn McCrumb: two novels

   Those of you who read SFLovers have heard of BIMBOS OF THE DEATH
SUN, a murder mystery set at a science fiction convention. I finally
found it in a bookstore in Covina and bought a copy for me and some
more for friends (it's been hard to find). Both books poke fun at
the way many Americans view or react to Brits & Scots, and *the
other side's* reactions to that view. The last paragraph may be
redundant to those who read Evelyn Leeper's & Chuq von Rospach's
reviews.

   I also found a copy of her HIGHLAND LADDIE GONE, a murder mystery
set at a West Virginia Scottish games. This author has a nice grasp
of the stereotypical participants at these festivals (who really are
just as she protrays them), and I learned a bit more British cant,
er, slang.  The victim, Dr. Colin Campbell, is an obnoxious person
with many enemies, some of whom are such because he's a Campbell (a
clan with a reputation for doubledealing, breach of hospitality, and
treachery during the 1745 uprising of Bonnie Prince Charlie & the
Catholic royalists vs the English crown and the Scottish
Covenanters) and some because he delights in antagonizing people.
It's a case of determining who hated or feared him most. The sleuth
is the Maid of the Cat for Clan Chattan, whose symbol is a wild
Scottish bobcat. The SCA and Civil War re-creationists wander
through as bit parts.
   It was a good entertaining read--I started it at my favorite
sushi bar and stayed up that night until I finished it. You may
never wear Royal Stewart or Campbell tartan again.

   BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN, a murder mystery set at a science
fiction convention, was equally entertaining. The majority of the
fen (plural of fan) portrayed in the book are folks who I observe
often enough at cons, but they're not the sort I run with. There is
a very obnoxious writer, Appin Dungannon, of a popular-to-readers
series (who also has enemies crawling out of the walls, because he
delights in antagonizing people) involving a character named Tratyn
Runewind. He is very carefully NOT Harlan Ellison (besides, Harlan
writes and speaks more eloquently than Appin Dungannon, and dresses
more nattily). The sleuth is another guest author at this
convention, a local engineering prof, who forces the murderer to
confess during a D&D game. This book is published through TSR Games,
btw. The SCA wanders through this story, too, as does a Scottish
folksinger who makes good money on his home turf, but isn't well
known in the States. This one wasn't as funny as HIGHLAND LADDIE
GONE, but it held my attention quite well.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 15:33:08 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: MEMORIES by Mike McQuay

                      MEMORIES by Mike McQuay
              Bantam Spectra, 1987, ISBN 0-553-25888-5
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     There are some ideas that are around as stereotypes or cliches
for ages before someone looks at them lopsided and says, "What if?"
Certainly the traditional inmate of a mental institution who
believes he is Napoleon is a familiar character.  But not until now
has anyone taken that idea and said, "What if he really WERE
Napoleon?"

     Well, Mike McQuay has done so.  MEMORIES is set in the same
future that McQuay used in his first novel, LIFEKEEPER.  That novel
was basically a retelling of BRAVE NEW WORLD, but in MEMORIES McQuay
breaks new ground.  Individually, the ideas are not new:
consciousnesses traveling in time and inhabiting other bodies, the
sorts of personalities that an ultra-regimented future will develop,
the grandfather paradox.  But McQuay combines them to make something
new.  It's not entirely successful; I felt that the love story
tended to get in the way of the rest of the plot, and some of the
co- incidences were too "deus ex machina."  But on the whole
MEMORIES gives us some interesting views of how characters from
different backgrounds would react to the power to travel through
time and (possibly) affect history.

     This novel, to some extent, follows the pre-destination theory
of time travel; that is, whatever you do in the past was already
done.  In one sub-plot (and there are several) one character does
what he did because he had done what he did.  (I am being purposely
obscure here to avoid giving any spoilers.)  Unfortunately, part of
the impact of that sub-plot revolves not only around the character
not knowing history very well (which is believable) but, more
importantly, around the reader not knowing history very well either.
The reader may very well react with a "Well, of course that's what
would happen!" when the light finally dawns on the characters.

     On the other hand, I found much of the main plot and other
sub-plots not as obvious, and I believe that the interplay of the
characters was much more the point of the novel than the plot.  In
the aforementioned subplot, the character's feelings are far more
important than the actual events that transpire, the reasons for the
actions more important than the actions themselves.  There is much
of the child's wish "Please make that it didn't happen" in this
novel.  Yet, just as in real life, people who think they can make
things better often actually make them worse.  All revolutionaries
think they are making things better; some succeed, but many are
trading the frying pan for the fire.  In MEMORIES, many of the
characters are trying to make things better.  To the extent the
results are pre-ordained, the results of their actions are often the
exact opposite of their intent.  Think of it as "conservation of
effort": whatever effort is put forth, whether for or against a
goal, will help to bring about the inevitable outcome.  This
conservation of effort is not so obvious as the TWILIGHT ZONE
episode in which a man goes back in time to prevent an accident and
ends up by causing it through the actions he takes to stop it.  But
it is there.

     As a time-travel story, MEMORIES has more than the usual number
of ideas floating around in it.  The characters are real, and their
predicaments are real.  Though I was not impressed by McQuay's
LIFEKEEPER, I would recommend MEMORIES.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 87 16:39:59 GMT
From: boyajian@akov88.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: LIAVEK (was Fantasy recs)

From:   drivax!holloway (Bruce Holloway)
> ..If "shared world" anthologies are more your style, try "Llyavek:
> Players of Luck". (Pardon the misspelling - I haven't read the
> book for a long while).

It's LIAVEK: PLAYERS OF LUCK, and it's actually the second volume in
the series. the first volume is simply titled LIAVEK. A third
volume, LIAVEK: WIZARD'S ROW, is due out later this month (it's a
September release). Those of you who are into comics may be
interested to know that WIZARD'S ROW contains a novelette by Alan
Moore, WATCHMEN and SWAMP THING writer.

> It's an interesting twist on fantasy, edited by Emma Bull and Will
> Chatterly.

Shetterly.

> Chatterly also wrote "Why Do Cats Have No Lord", a question that
> always got me to wondering.

That question may be in your mind, but it's not in the title, which
is simply CATS HAVE NO LORD. Will has also written WITCHBLOOD, and
Emma's first novel, WAR FOR THE OAKS was released in late June as
the first of Ace's Fantasy Special line (companion to their Science
Fiction Specials).

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 16:46:04 GMT
From: im4u!milano!wex@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: LIAVEK (was Fantasy recs)

In addition to the material previously mentioned, Bull and Shetterly
have been major contributors to the BORDERLAND/BORDERTOWN
shared-world anthologies.  I reviewed the former a while back in OR
and my review of the latter will appear in the next OR.

Summary, for those who can't wait: Bull and Shetterly are the best
of a mediocre lot.  Good ideas, but little performance and no
cohesion.

Alan Wexelblat
ARPA: WEX@MCC.COM
UUCP: {seismo,harvard,gatech,pyramid}!sally!im4u!milano!wex

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #383
Date:  9 Sep 87 0918-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #383
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 87 0918-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #383
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 383

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Hubbard (6 msgs) &
                             Moorcock (4 msgs) &
                             Sladek (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 87 08:08:46 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Hubbard's BUCKSKIN BRIGADE

[Old business]

From:   plaid!chuq      (Chuq Von Rospach)
> L. Ron Hubbard: Buckskin Brigade. Bridge....L. Ron Hubbard's
> precedent setting historical action adventure novel (that's a
> quote).  Does anyone know if this is a reprint, or is this another
> "new" work by a very dead author? They claim it to be a first
> mass-market, but I couldn't find it as a known work in my
> files....

Oh, it's for real all right. I finally dug up a quick and dirty
Hubbard bibliography I've had sitting on my shelve since the late
Jurassic (this is, believe it or not, the first time I've had the
need or inclination to consult it). Anyways, it lists BUCKSKIN
BRIGADE as having been published by the Macauley Co.  in 1937, as
well as an abridged version appearing in 1938 in an issue of
COMPLETE NORTHWEST NOVEL MAGAZINE (presumably a pulp; though I've
never come across the name before, it sure sounds like one)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jul 87 16:22:17 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Top 10 & MISSION EARTH

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
[original article deleted]
>Also, has anyone else in UseNet-land been keeping up with the
>Mission: Earth series by the late L. Ron Hubbard?  I just bought
>book 7 ("Voyage of Vengeance) when I found book 8 in the local book
>store.  (I figure this way I won't miss any to the hundreds of
>other avid readers :-) Just wondering... I mean somebody else has
>to be reading the things.

I have a couple of questions about L. Ron Hubbard:

   1).  Is this the same guy who wrote the book on Dianetics?  Or,
        is this an amazing co-incidence?

   B).  For a dead guy, he sure is prolific.  I'm not trying to be
        too disrespectful of the dead, but I just saw some ads in
        IASFM about another novel that will be released later this
        year by L. Ron Hubbard.  Maybe he has a ghost writer (sorry,
        I couldn't resist).

 iii).  Wasn't there a 60 minutes article about L. Ron Hubbard a few
        years ago.  If I remember correctly, Hubbard was only
        missing, not really dead.

Thenk yew verry mooch!

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 87 04:55:48 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard, man of mystery

Yes, this is the same L. Ron Hubbard who wrote "Dianetics" and
started Dianetics and Scientology.

He is alleged to have written all ten volumes of the Mission: Earth
series in less than two months.  He may have more books in the
pipeline; I wouldn't be surprised.  He developed the ability to
write in such volume back during the early days of science fiction,
according to his introduction to a kind of overview of his early
days as a writer of adventure, western, and SF.

For various reasons Hubbard became very reclusive in the late
sixties, and lived at sea for some years.  Then he moved back onto
the land, but his whereabouts were kept secret and the public heard
little about him.  According to the Church of Scientology, he was
doing research in New York City and in California, and probably
elsewhere, persuant to his work with Scientology.

He died in January of 1987 on his ranch in Creston, CA.  The local
sheriff oversaw fingerprint, blood, and other test and agreed that
it really was LRH.  He was cremated virtually immediately, after the
church officials and lawyers had had a chance to arrive at his
ranch.

An unauthorized biography of LRH has appeared in bookstores.  The
authorized biography was supposed to be out this Spring but has been
held up for some reason.  Both biographies are pretty wild, from
what I hear.  LRH was quite a character.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 16:53:11 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai)
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard, man of mystery

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
> Yes, this is the same L. Ron Hubbard who wrote "Dianetics" and
> started Dianetics and Scientology.

   I've heard from some sources long ago that he started this Church
of Scientology over a bet with a fellow SF writer in a bar.
Supposedly, he bet that he could make more money in religion that in
writing SF novels.  Can anyone verify this?

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-544-5349
UUCP:  {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
CSnet: hirai@swatsun.swarthmore.edu
ARPA:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 05:45:40 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard's "Start a religion" remark

Attributions vary.  Many claim that Hubbard did say that "If
somebody really wanted to make a lot money they should start a
religion." Hubbard, in one writing or other, claims that Frederick
Pohl made this remark.  Now a biography of John Campbell suggests
that Campbell advised Hubbard to start a religion.  It's clearly
passed into folklore now, and we'll never know how it all got
started.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 18:34:12 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard's "Start a religion" remark

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>Now a biography of John Campbell suggests that Campbell advised
>Hubbard to start a religion.  It's clearly passed into folklore
>now, and we'll never know how it all got started.

In THE JOHN W CAMPBELL LETTERS, Campbell himself claims to have
suggested this to Hubbard because the APA was threatening to shut
down Dianetics for practicing counselling with unlicensed
practicioners.  He pointed out that in religion you don't need a
license to practice counselling.  (He also said that Hubbard had
gone about it all wrong...)

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 22:11:00 GMT
From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Moorcock book wanted

Does anybody know who, or where, I can get a copy of Mike Moorcocks
"The Russian Intelligence", or "The Chinese Agent"?  They are about
the exploits of Jerry Cornell (who really is Jerry Cornelius under a
slightly different name) as a very lazy, lucky, and incompetent
secret agent.  I used to have them from an import publisher, but
seem to have terminally misplaced them.

Thanks

ami silberman

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 87 00:56:32 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Mike Moorcock

   Among my foibles I collect the works of Mike Moorcock, I have
some 70 titles (in many more than 70 volumes), some of which are, of
course, the same book under a couple of names. What follows is a
list of 13 books by Moorcock that I have heard about or seen in
libraries but do not own (not for lack of trying) If anyone out
there could point me at a source for any of these books, or perhaps
has a copy they'd like to sell, I'd be very greatful.

From the *Book Of First Eds*.. titles I have yet to see:

"The Jade Man's eyes"    Brighton-Seattle Unicorn Bookshops '73
"Carribbean Crisis"      Sexton blake Library (#501) As Desmond Reid.
   Note- D.Reid is a house Pseudonym only used once by Moorcock
"The LSD Dosier"         Roberts+Winter 1966 Compact books
   Written and credited to Roger Harris, anonomously Rewritten by
   Moorcock
"Printer's Devil"        Compact Books 1966 written as Bill Barclay
"Sojan"                  Savoy c1977   ISBN 0 7045 02410
"Somewhere in the Night" Compact 1966 As Bill Barcley
   rewritten as "The Chinese Agent" (which I do have)

also ...
The Swords of Heaven: The Flowers of hell (with Howard Chaykin)
The Russian Intelligence
The Distant Suns
The City in the Autumn Stars
Letters from Hollywood (non-fiction)
Heroic Dreams (non-fiction)
My experiences in the third world war" Savoy c1980 (in assoc. w/ NEL)
    'A Savoy Original' ISBN 0 86130 037 8

If there are any other MM collectors out there, I'd be glad to trade
lists of known titles to see if we're missing any. Including the
above 13, I know of 83 different titles (that includes a couple of
revised editions counted as different titles) I myself have about
100 different volumes of his work.

Gideon Sheps
UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!utgpu!gbs
BITNET: gbs@utorgpu
        gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Aug 87 09:55:20 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Mike Moorcock

gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps) writes:
>Among my foibles I collect the works of Mike Moorcock, I have some
>70 titles (in many more than 70 volumes), some of which are, of
>course, the same book under a couple of names. What follows is a
>list of 13 books by Moorcock that I have heard about or seen in
>libraries but do not own (not for lack of trying) If anyone out
>there could point me at a source for any of these books, or perhaps
>has a copy they'd like to sell, I'd be very greatful.

I'm not a collector - I don't care what edition a book is in as long
as the pages aren't too aged or stained to read - but I've got about
fifty volume of Moorcock, all different.  I think I can help you
with some of your wish list, though I'm not interested in selling.

>"The Jade Man's eyes"   Brighton-Seattle Unicorn Bookshops '73

Is there something wrong with the version collected in "The Sailor
on the Seas of Fate"?

>"Sojan"                 Savoy c1977   ISBN 0 7045 02410

This is worth finding just for the short self-parody "The Stone
Thing".  I got my copy seven or eight years ago at the Harvard Coop
(Boston, of course), but it seems unlikely they have any copies
left.  Best bet: I've seen it once or twice since in used book
stores with large sf collections.

>The Swords of Heaven: The Flowers of hell (with Howard Chaykin)

Try the American graphic arts distributor Bud Plant; that's where I
got my copy.  Plant does a large mail-order business with a lot of
hard-to-find stuff.  I don't have the address at present, but any
comic store owner should be able to tell you where to write for a
catalog.  This is possibly the only good thing other than Flagg that
Chaykin has done.

>The Russian Intelligence

You're in luck.  "The Other Change of Hobbit" in Berkeley has this
in stock.  I believe they will send it to you if you call them up.
(415) 848-0413.

>The Distant Suns

Good luck on this one.  It's a long text story about Jerry Cornelius
in 2021.  The only place you are likely to find it is old comic book
bins, since it is bound in a comic book format - don't ask me why.
The date is 1975.  The actual credit is "Michael Moorcock and Philip
James".  It is part of the "Unicorn SF" line, which has an address
worth quoting in full:

UNICORN SF/FY
Nant Gwilw,
Llanfynydd,
Carmarthen,
Dyfed SA32 7TT

As you may have gathered, this is in the Isles.

>The City in the Autumn Stars

Another stroke of luck!  "Dark Carnival" in Berkeley has this in
stock, in an import paperback, and the American hardback is due this
fall.  The number of "Dark Carnival" is (415) 854-7757.  Tell 'em
the guy with a black beard and yellow hair sent you.

>Letters from Hollywood (non-fiction)
>Heroic Dreams (non-fiction)

Let me know if you get a line on either of these!  Speaking of
non-fiction, I take it you already have "The Retreat from Liberty",
but if not, ask about it when you call "The Other Change of Hobbit".
It's a long essay on Thatcherism/Reaganism.

I hope this was helpful - and I hope there are enough other Moorcock
fans out there to have made posting this instead of mailing it
worthwhile!  Most sf fans despise Moorcock because of his well-known
anti-fandom, anti-convention, anti-geek attitudes.  I think that
keeping himself removed from the SF mainstream is largely what has
rescued Moorcock from the fate of such writers as Zelazny, who are
idolized for the wrong things and eventually have all worth leeched
out of their fiction through inappropriate praise.  Moorcock
continues to break new ground after more than twenty years of
distinguished writing; and in sf, that's very rare.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jul 87 21:41:01 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: HGWells

H. G. wells fans would probably enjoy Moorcock's "Dancers at the End
of Time", which features Wells as a character.  The parts featuring
Wells are among the funniest in the series, but Moorcock has also
(as usual when he presents historical settings) done his homework on
the period.

"Dancers" is a trilogy, to my knowledge the only authentically funny
trilogy in science fiction or fantasy.  There are also a couple of
auxiliary books which are entertaining but not up to the trilogy's
standards.  Read the first book, "An Alien Heat", and see if you
want to pursue the rest.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Aug 87 01:18:37 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Roderick, by John Sladek

I'll recommend this book, but with a caveat.  It has a somewhat
surreal approach, reminding me of Illuminatus works, so it probably
won't be to everyone's taste.  But with that in mind, it touches on
a wide variety of subjects, and quite thoroughly explores the notion
of a robot created as an infant-like learning machine growing up in
a parody of our own society.  The thing that grabs you in this book
is the dialog.  Most everything is revealed as a by-product of
fascinating discussions between the characters.  This is not
something I take to, normally, but Sladek gets away with it nicely.
****+ on the otherrealms scale if you like surrealism, a real dud if
you don't.

Wayne Throop
mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 87 14:40:48 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Roderick, by John Sladek

>I'll recommend this book, but with a caveat.  It has a somewhat
>surreal approach, reminding me of Illuminatus works, so it probably
>won't be to everyone's taste.

I have to agree, although it's been a bit since I read the book.
Pretty interesting stuff along with some rather far out characters
(one woman once shaved her head and painted it green; to this day
she has green dandruff).

Another Sladek book that's kind of neat is "Mechasm" which I'm not
even sure is around any more.  I read it many moons ago, so I'm not
sure whether I'd like it now, but at the time it made for a pretty
enjoyable, if somewhat surreal, read.  Briefly, it's about (NO
SPOILER YET since all this is on the back cover) a machine that's
invented that reproduced itself.  From there the fun begins.

(**SPOILER**) Remember the old bit with the allowance where the kid
gets one penny the first day 2 cents the next, then four, etc.
until at the end of the month he's getting millions daily.  Apply
that to reproducing machines.  Now try to stop them. (END OF
SPOILER)

jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #384
Date:  9 Sep 87 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #384
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Sep 87 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #384
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 384

Today's Topics:

                    Books - McCaffrey (9 msgs) &
                            Norton (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 00:22:30 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!pyrtech!nancym@RUTGERS.EDU (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Nerilka's Story; Moreta

ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes:
>Why doesn't ANYBODY get the intelligent idea of travelling back in
>time and flame the stupid cat to death. Or, failing to find such a
>small spot, at *least* go back to where the ship docked, say 10
>minutes before it does, and quarantine the ship....

  I got the impression, while reading that going back to flame the
cat or quarantine the ship would not be possible.  This wasn't from
anything particular that was said, but a feeling for the way they
handled the time travel in general.  First, very few people new
about the time travel. Up until the epidemic, not even all the
dragon riders knew.  They wanted to keep it secret for political and
social reasons.  So they would have had to have a very good reason
for quarantining the ship.  Remember, they were not the rulers, and
would have to convince the Lord Holder of Isen(?) to issue that
order.  Also, they might have thought (also not mentioned in the
book) that to go back and change an event which would change history
would be wrong or impossible.  Using time travel to deliver all the
vaccine on time didn't change anything that had already happened.
What would happen to the memory of the people that had seen the cat,
if the cat had never been picked up?  There is some precedence for
this in a couple of the books.  In The White Dragon, the young Lord
Holder Jaxom, rescues the stolen queen egg from where it is hidden
in time, but he returns it at some point after it was stolen.  He
could have returned it to the exact time it was stolen and saved a
fuss, right?  Also, when Lessa first discovers she can time travel,
she goes back to Rautha Hold and watches the invasion that slew her
family, but she doesn't interfere.  Could she have saved anyone?

It's only my theory, but I found that it was consistent thru out the
books.

pyramid!pyrtech!nancym

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 87 14:30:00 GMT
From: pur-ee!pur-phy!dub@RUTGERS.EDU (Dwight)
Subject: re:flaming cats on pern

From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster):
>Why doesn't ANYBODY get the intelligent idea of travelling back in
>time to the location of the place where they find the feline, and
>flame the stupid cat to death. ....

   I was under the impression that it really wasn't the feline at
all who was the carrier of the flu, but rather it was the crew
itself that spread it.  This seems more reasonable.  I'm not saying
that the cat didn't help; I've heard that people can get viruses
from cats (Martina claimed this once).  The crew may have picked up
the bug at any time during their trip to the Southern Continent.
And finally, it's been a few years since I read Moreta so if I'm
dead wrong about some of the facts, sorry.
   Now as to travelling back in time to stop the ship from
landfalling on the Southern continent...

Dwight Bartholomew
UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,seismo,inuxc,uiucdcs }!pur-ee!pur-phy!galileo!dub
      {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!galileo!dub
ARPA: dub@newton.physics.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Aug 87 01:46:39 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Nerilka's Story; Moreta (SPOILERS!!!!!!)

***SPOILER WARNING***

ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes:
>Anyway, one thought crossed my mind:
>
>Why doesn't ANYBODY get the intelligent idea of travelling back in
>time to the location of the place where they find the feline, and
>flame the stupid cat to death. Or, failing to find such a small
>spot, at *least* go back to where the ship docked, say 10 minutes
>before it does, and quarantine the ship, so only a few people have
>to die, instead of thousands.

(a) Anyone who did it would already be infected, given the apparent
virulence of whatever germ the cat was carrying.  Given that dragons
won't let their riders commit suicide, and dragons themselves won't
do so unless their riders die (cf. many references in DRAGONQUEST
and THE WHITE DRAGON), it'd have to be holders that did it; and it's
doubtful that they would.

(b) Many people were dying BEFORE the feline was linked with the
disease.  McCaffrey seems to take a fatalistic view of time: if it's
already happened, it can't be changed by going back in time.  On the
other hand, time-_betweening_ was used to negate takeoff-landing
time, not to travel back in time, as I read MORETA.  This qualifies
as do-able by McCaffrey's time travel rules.

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!cwruecmp!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 87 21:33:50 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Moreta's Ride Question

logden@tc.fluke.COM (Leonard Ogden) writes:
>I have a couple of questions on Pern and the thread. How long does
>the thread fall. I don't mean each individual event, but from time
>the two planets are close enough, till they ain't? Years? Months
>Weeks? Guesses? Seems like years to me as I read the books.

I'm not absolutely positive about this, but I believe that a Pass
lasts for 50 Turns (years).

>Also if I remeber correctly the ballad about Moreta's ride was
>mentioned in the first Pern book, yet the ride seemed to take place
>much later, in Moreta.  How can this be? Am I misunderstanding
>something here?

You're right: The ballad IS in the first book.  The book, "Moreta:
Dragonlady of Pern" is a book which goes back in time, to before the
time of F'lar and Lessa (even though Anne wrote it latter).

David Guntner
UUCP: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
      philabs!cadovax!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
INET: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 23:47:45 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Moreta's Ride Question

When I posted my chronology of the books, I messed up (memory fault,
core dumped ;-).  I stated that Jaxom was seven when he Impressed;
he was 12, actually, and about 1 1/2 turns passed between his
Impression and the beginning of THE WHITE DRAGON.  My revised
chronology therefore reads:

                                |
   MORETA, DRAGONLADY OF PERN  || NERILKA'S SONG
   (1/2 Turn)                  || (1/2 Turn)
                               .|
                               .
                               . (How long?  No data.  > 1000 Turns)
                               .
   DRAGONFLIGHT (Old Time)     |
   (2 weeks)                   .
                               . (400 Turns, more or less)
                               .
   DRAGONFLIGHT                |
   (1 Turn)                    |
                               |
                               . (7 Turns)
                               .
   DRAGONQUEST                 ||
   (2 Turns?)                  || DRAGONSONG    (6 mos.)
                               ||
                               |. DRAGONSINGER  (1 week)
                               | (ca. 6 mos.)
                               . (1 Turn)
   THE WHITE DRAGON            | (1/2 Turn)
   (3 1/2 Turns)               || DRAGONDRUMS (ca. 4 mos.)
                               ||
                               |
                               |
                               |

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 18:02:23 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Moreta's Ride Question

A highly recommended book is "The Atlas of Pern", written by someone
whose name I can't remember now.  She also did "The Atlas of
Middle-Earth" and "The Atlas of the Land".  "The Atlas of Pern" is
approved by Anne McCaffrey and is quite a useful book.

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
..!hplabs!hpccc!okamoto

------------------------------

Date: 1 Aug 87 04:00:08 GMT
From: ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Ed Ahrenhoerster)
Subject: Nerilka's Story; Moreta

Well I just read "Nerilka's Story" by Anne McCaffrey, and I would
highly reccommend it. It is very interesting in that it talks about
the same event on Pern as "Moreta, Dragonlady of Pern", but from
another viewpoint, and each still stands as a novel on its own.
However, for anybody planning to read both, it is definitely better
(in my opinion) to read "Moreta" first.  Anyway, one thought crossed
my mind:

***Spoilers ahead***

Why doesn't ANYBODY get the intelligent idea of travelling back in
time to the location of the place where they find the feline, and
flame the stupid cat to death. Or, failing to find such a small
spot, at *least* go back to where the ship docked, say 10 minutes
before it does, and quarantine the ship, so only a few people have
to die, instead of thousands.  Don't say Pernese don't use time
travel to their advantage, since the saving itself hinges on time
travel to vaccinate everybody in time.  You would think somebody, on
this planet which seems to have a lot of geniuses, would come up
with that. Anybody with an answer, please let me know.

Ed Ahrenhoerster

------------------------------

Date: 2 Aug 87 09:21:24 GMT
From: myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers)
Subject: Re: Nerilka's Story; Moreta

***Spoilers ahead***

ed@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Ed Ahrenhoerster) writes:
>Why doesn't ANYBODY get the intelligent idea of travelling back in
>time to the location of the place where they find the feline, and
>flame the stupid cat to death. Or, failing to find such a small
>spot, at *least* go back to where the ship docked, say 10 minutes
>before it does, and quarantine the ship, so only a few people have
>to die, instead of thousands.  Don't say Pernese don't use time
>travel to their advantage, since the saving itself hinges on time
>travel to vaccinate everybody in time.  You would think somebody,
>on this planet which seems to have a lot of geniuses, would come up
>with that. Anybody with an answer, please let me know.

Simple. Paradox. As far as I can remember, no where in the Pern
books can you change the past by time travel.  I'll look up
references if you like.

But remember back to _Dragonflight_? Lessa went back 200 turns to
get the Old-Timers. Who had disappeared mysteriously 200 turns ago.
She could go back and get the Old-timers because she already did it.

I think I could find a specific reference that stated one couldn't
return to the exact same time and meet one`s self (unless you
already had!).  I'll try to look it up if you want.

Bob Myers
myers@tybalt.caltech.edu
{rutgers,amdahl}!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!myers

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 23:03:29 GMT
From: nancy!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: Pern Chronology

Brandon Allbery writes:
>  MORETA, DRAGONLADY OF PERN  || NERILKA'S SONG
>  (1/2 Turn)                  || (1/2 Turn)
>                              .
>                              . (How long?  No data.  > 1000 Turns)

In the back of Moreta in the "Dragondex" there is a listing of all
the passes of the Red Star from the time of the colonization to the
pass that the Dragonriders of Pern is set in.

My copy is in Virginia so I can't tell you how long it was.

Covert C Beach
PO Box 6585
E. Lansing, MI 48826-6585
..{ihnp4,pur-ee,umich,itivax,super,well}!msudoc!beach.UUCP
beach@msudoc.egr.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 05:50:23 GMT
From: wenn@GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton: Witch World query

Witch World books have been published by many different companies
(Ace, DAW, Del Rey, Tor, among others), so just looking at the "other
Witch World books" inside the front cover never gives you a complete
list.  As far as I know (as owner of ~60 Andre Norton books, plus
several reference books), this is a complete list of Witch World
books:

Estcarp
   Witch World [1963]
   Web of the Witch World [1964]
   Three Against the Witch World [1965]
   Warlock of the Witch World [1967]
   Sorceress of the Witch World [1968]
   The Trey of Swords [1977]
   'Ware Hawk [1983]
High Halleck
   The Year of the Unicorn [1965]
   The Crystal Gryphon [1972]
   Spell of the Witch World [1972] (Story Collection)
   The Jargoon Pard [1974]
   Zarsthor's Bane [1978]
   Horn Crown [1981]
   The Gryphon in Glory [1981]
   Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] (with A. C. Crispin)
Both Estcarp & High Halleck stories
   Lore of the Witch World [1980] (Story Collection)
   Tales of the Witch World [1987] (Anthology edited by Andre
      Norton)

The stories either take place in Estcarp or in High Halleck.  The
two story cycles are essentially independent.  Estcarp is a
matriarchal society under the rigid control of the Witches (women
with magic).  The Estcarp books should be read in chronological
order, since each book progresses from the actions of the previous
books (this is less true of "'Ware Hawk").

High Halleck is a newly colonized land that was mysteriously empty
when the colonists arrived.  There still exists, however, places and
objects of power left from the old inhabitants; places helpful,
neutral or harmful to humankind.  Most of the stories occur when
High Halleck is invaded by another continent (but "The Horn Crown"
covers the colonization of the High Halleck).  The books are
essentially independent with a few exceptions ("The Year of the
Unicorn -> The Jargoon Pard" and "The Crystal Gryphon -> The Gryphon
in Glory -> Gryphon's Eyrie").

Witch World is one of my all time favorite series, but then I really
like Andre Norton.  The best places to start would be "Witch World"
for Estcarp, and "The Horn Crown" for High Halleck.  Both are good
introductions to the series.  If you like these, by all means read
the entire series.

John

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 87 23:28:08 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton: Witch World query

John Wenn writes:
>Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] (with A. C. Crispin)

Does anyone know who A. C. Crispin is?  Norton's books are good but
she is generally weak in dialog.  _Gryphon's Eyrie_ had acceptable
dialog without sacrificing Norton's strengths.  I think it's one of
the best she's ever done.

>The books are essentially independent with a few exceptions ("The
>Year of the Unicorn -> The Jargoon Pard" and "The Crystal Gryphon
>-> The Gryphon in Glory -> Gryphon's Eyrie").


I would suggest reading all five of the above in order since the
main characters in the first two are minor characters in the last
three.  However, it's possible to read almost any Norton book
without reading any others since she does a good job of keeping them
independent.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 02:42:36 GMT
From: seismo!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF

olegovna@MATH.UCLA.EDU writes:
>jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>>  Got into a discussion with a friend about animal stories in SF.
>>anybody know of others?
>Lot's of stuff by Andre Norton: her human characters often work
>closely with animals and/or have a telepathic rapport with them.
>Things that come to mind immediately are _The Zero Stone_,
>_Catseye_, and the more recent _Flight in Yiktor_. There are
>others, but it's been awhile since

MOON OF THREE RINGS is pretty good stuff.  (Also by Andre Norton.)

Brandon S. Allbery
{{ames,harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,{well,ihnp4}!hoptoad,cbosgd}
   !ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #385
Date: 10 Sep 87 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #385
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 87 0936-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #385
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 385

Today's Topics:

                Books - Simak (3 msgs) & Whitmore &
                        Wu (2 msgs) & Legacy of Heorot &
                        The Codex  (2 msgs) &
                        Cvltvre Made Stvpid

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 87 00:04:53 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Clifford Simak

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>Does Simak have a thing for preserved dragons?  Has he ever written
>a "normal" (read: comprehensible) book?  I have read "Shakespeare's
>Planet," "The Visitors," and "Where the Evil Dwells," and found
>them all to be too high in the number of things left unexplained.

Well, here's two Simak's that I liked alot: _The_Werewolf_Principal_
(pretty good), and _Way_Station_ (very good).  _Fellowship_of_the_
Talisman_ is pretty bad.  And, there's one more that I read long ago
that I thought was fairly good, but I can't remember the title; it
involved a man, a witch, and a robot traveling about long after a
far-future holocaust (big robot revolt?).  There was a scene where
the robot overcame his nonviolence programming to kill a bear (in
order to gain the fat to render for oil).  If anyone remembers the
title, I'd like to hear it.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 87 11:28:35 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Clifford Simak

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>Well, here's two Simak's that I liked alot: _The_Werewolf_
>Principal_ (pretty good), and _Way_Station_ (very good).
>_Fellowship_of_the_ Talisman_ is pretty bad.  And, there's one more
>that I read long ago that I thought was fairly good, but I can't
>remember the title; it involved a man, a witch, and a robot
>traveling about long after a far-future holocaust (big robot
>revolt?).  There was a scene where the robot overcame his
>nonviolence programming to kill a bear (in order to gain the fat to
>render for oil).  If anyone remembers the title, I'd like to hear
>it.

Glad to help.  Clifford Simak lives a block from the house in
Minnetonka, Minnesota, where I grew up, so I grab anything of his I
see out of some sense of loyalty to the neighborhood.  The book you
want is "A Heritage of Stars", Berkley SF, (c) 1977, SBN
425-03773-8.  I have two, if anybody's dying to read it.  (I often
forget what I have in my 1000+ paperback collection and end up with
duplicates after a trip to the used book shop.  Someday I must get
this stuff organized!)

Kent Paul Dolan
UUCP  :  kent@xanth.UUCP
         ...{sun,harvard}!xanth!kent
CSNET :  kent@odu.csnet
ARPA  :  kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu
USPost:  P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Virginia 23501-1559

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 87 20:47:53 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Simak

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>Does Simak have a thing for preserved dragons?  Has he ever written
>a "normal" (read: comprehensible) book?  I have read "Shakespeare's
>Planet," "The Visitors," and "Where the Evil Dwells," and found
>them all to be too high in the number of things left unexplained.

I think most people would consider "Way Station" a normal and in
fact a reasonably good book.  It boasts neither preserved dragons
nor loose ends.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 87 02:09:08 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: WINTER'S DAUGHTER by Charles Whitmore

               WINTER'S DAUGHTER by Charles Whitmore
                Timescape, 1984, ISBN 0-671-49984-X
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     There are a lot of post-nuclear-holocaust books these days, but
no others like this one.  Face it, how many novels of any genre are
written in the style of a Scandinavian saga?

     This book was recommended at Readercon.  The person
recommending it talked about its lack of commercial success, which
he attributed to the fact that readers who picked it up didn't
realize they were reading a modern Scandinavian saga, and felt the
style too episodic and terse.  By the way, I call this style
Scandinavian for lack of a better term.  Most of the sagas known
today in this country are Icelandic, yet this book could not be
called Icelandic.  Calling it a "Viking saga" doesn't seem right
either.  All in all, "Scandinavian saga" seems the most neutral
term.

     Divided into three major sections, the story covers the life of
Signe Ragnhilds-datter and her family in the years following
Ragnarok, a.k.a. the Twilight of the Gods, a.k.a. World War III.
Signe was born in Africa shortly after the war, to a Norwegian
mother and an American father who were there when war broke out.
Africa was spared most of the destruction and aftermath of the war,
but Europeans and Americans were looked upon with distrust and her
early life was not easy.  Eventually she and her children leave
Africa and travel to America and eventually to their home in Norway.
The episodes average between one and two pages each.  You could
think of it as learning about someone's experiences by looking at
individual snapshots from a scrapbook or by hearing them describe
isolated incidents.  It's very much the way the movies work, yet in
novel form, most readers find it awkward and stilted.

     The introduction, like the introduction to Margaret Atwood's
HANDMAID'S TALE, is written from the perspective of a scholar of the
novel's future.  In this case, the writer talks about how the style
of this novel makes it more accessible to the readers of his
present, a comment which can only seem ironic in view of the novel's
apparent inaccessibility to the readers of ours.

     The episodic nature of the story allows Whitmore to cover a lot
of time and territory in a couple of hundred pages.  He can give us
glimpses into many different aspects of post-holocaust society: the
enclaves that are set up, the reinstatement of trade and
international relationships, the attitudes of people towards
strangers.  He shows us sketches; we need to fill in the details.
In spite of this, the characters come alive.  They have depth and
seem very real, not the caricatures you might expect from the terse
style.  Whitmore manages to avoid being harpooned by the limitations
of his medium.  Even though I have not read a lot of Scandinavian
sagas, I found this book enjoyable and would recommend it.  If you
have some background knowledge of sagas, you will probably
appreciate this even more.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1987 07:53 EDT
From: Bruce <BRUCE%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Masterplay Review

I made the relative mistake of buying a book based on the cover
(plot description, cover art, etc).  In this case the plot
description was accurate, as was the cover art.  However, both
promised far more in terms of intriguing possibilities than the book
delivered.  (as for flames, remember: what follows is opinion;
opinion does not equal fact).

Masterplay
by William Wu

In a future Earth, historical simulations (i.e. wargaming) are the
primary spectator sport.  The two greatest practitioners of the
sport are also old childhood friends.  Wargaming has recently been
codified so that the outcome of a game will be used to resolve legal
disputes, and when one of the friend/wargamers has his life
threatened in a legal problem, it is up to the other to win a game
to save him.

Aside from other minor additions to the plot (love interest, a
couple of secondary considerations and plot extensions), this is the
whole story.  Masterplay is relatively well written, which good
characterization and a logical progression of events.  All well and
good.  However, the book captures no sense of wonder, believability,
or excitement:

The plot is excessively contrived.  First is the arrangement of
using wargames as a legal tool.  While I am a wargamer (for going on
20 years), even I find it unbelievable that wargaming would become a
worldwide sport of such proportions as described, much less become a
replacement for courts.  Beyond this, the hero falls in love with a
woman at first sight and she just happens to oppose him in his game
to save his friend.  Then his friend returns to oppose him in the
"climactic" scene of the book.

There is no explanation of events.  Why has wargaming become so
popular?  What are the effects on society of this extensive
wargaming interest (so extensive that the book portrays it as being
one of the primary careers of the time)?  How does it all work?

Not only is the plot forced (like pushing steak through a
meatgrinder), but it has no tension or excitement.  When I finished
I felt like I had been led through a singularly boring maze by the
writer, not like I had been experiencing the events with the
characters.  While I hoped for something unexpected, the plot
progressed exactly like I had supposed, and the happy ending is the
least interesting part of the whole exercise.

It all seemed like a great waste of time and energy when it had such
promise...

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 16:37:36 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Masterplay Review

From: Bruce <BRUCE%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Masterplay
>by William Wu

It was based on a short story that shared all the flaws of the book
save one: it was a lot shorter.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 20:06:02 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Review: "Legacy of Heorot"

LEGACY OF HEOROT [**-]
Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, Steven Barnes

In "Mote in God's Eye", Niven and Pournelle wrote space opera. In
"Footfall", they tackled the "Aliens Invade Earth". And in "Legacy",
they get to the "hordes of aliens overrun an offworld colony" theme.

The colonists of the first interstellar colony are having a tough
time of it. It's not enough that almost everyone that comes out of
cold sleep suffers from Hibernation Instability, but the guy in
charge of Security doesn't seem to want the colony to grow... and
after a dog and some livestock are found mutilated, he gets
positively paranoid.

The colony soon decides that Hibernation Instability has driven him
crazy, and that he is responsible for those mutilations to feed his
paranoid fantasies, and are just about to the point of relieving him
of his duties, when.... the reptilian, nearly unstoppable alien just
about destroys the colony.

Soon they find that this alien isn't alone, and by the end of the
book, they're battling thousands of the beasties.

This book suffers from the inevitable comparison to the movie
"Aliens", and shares quite a few characters... the unstoppable
alien, the momma alien, the larval forms of same lying about
innocuously, and the climatic battle scene where these formidable
fighting machines die like roaches.

But the characters are all forgetable, and are hard to distinguish
from one another. The Hibernation Instability seems to drop
everyone's IQ several points or more, turn all the men paranoid, and
all the women into air-headed bimbos who are just waiting their
chance to settle down and have babies, and have their men protect
them.

Naturally, each author writes himself into the plot. Jerry Pournelle
stars as the cautious security agent who builds his own
Heinlein-style freehold in the hills while the rest of the colony
grows in ignorant bliss. The other characters are blends of Barnes',
Niven's, and Pournelle's standard supporting characters that we all
remember from "Lucifer's Hammer", "Oath of Fealty", and the rest of
those collaborations (and another, "Dream Park"). As usual, the
authors tend to see women as loose bundles of nerves and hormones
and little else.

"Legacy" suffers from one of the pitfalls of "hard" science fiction
- the characters all seem alike, especially the women. And they all
take back seat to careful explanations of the alien physiology and
psychology, the intricate defense

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 87 15:00 EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW@waikato.s4cc.symbolics.com>
Subject: Why I think the Codex language is a fake.

The Moderator sent me an enthusiastic reply to my last long screed
about the page-numbering system in the Codex.  Flattery will get you
everywhere.  Here is why I believe the "language" of the Codex is an
elaborate fraud, devoid of actual semantic content.

It's very hard to isolate letters from the cursive script, so I
concentrated my efforts on the "upper-case" or "heading" alphabet.

I took a very small sample of text in the "heading" alphabet, to
wit, the eleven section headings.  I did a very naive statistical
test.  I wanted to answer the question: do the headings behave
statistically like samples from the same language?  In summary, they
do not.

In fact, the frequency distribution is suspiciously flat, as if the
artist were trying to be "fair" to each of his invented letters.
Furthermore, certain letters come into vogue, that is, become very
frequent, for a couple of headings, and then disappear again.

It's hard to think of a reason why a real language would show such a
distribution.  The most obvious theory is that those letters came
into vogue as they were invented.  The artist was successively
infatuated with each of his new letterforms, but then got tired of
each.

So the naive statistical evidence says that the headings are
nonlinguistic, and it would be darned surprising if the main text
made sense while the headings didn't.  Hence, my current belief is
that none of it makes sense.

By the way, if people are interested in this sort of thing, check
out "Parallel Botany" by Leo Lionni (sp?).

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 87 02:57:01 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!wfi@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ingogly)
Subject: Re: Why I think the Codex language is a fake.

ACW@waikato.s4cc.symbolics.com writes:
>...  Here is why I believe the "language" of the Codex is an
>elaborate fraud, devoid of actual semantic content...

The Mayan Codex was an elaborate and beautiful artifact whose
semantic content was for many years a complete mystery. Yet people
reacted to that artifact as an object of beauty in spite of/because
of the mystery. Similarly, Egyptian heiroglyphs were for many years
objects of beauty as well as semantic mysteries. Maybe Luigi
Serafini (if I have his name right) was trying to do something
similar: create an undecipherable text whose SEMANTIC content is
(perhaps) nil but whose AESTHETIC content is considerable ... and
maybe the controversy surrounding the "deciphering" of Serafini's
text is part of the ART in what he's done: art as process, in a
certain sense: the controversy and ambiguity is in fact part of the
aesthetic experience of the Codex.

Bill Ingogly

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 87 00:19:52 GMT
From: tyg@eddie.mit.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: CVLTVRE MADE STVPID

Just picked up in a local bookstore; Cvltvre Made Stvpid (sic), the
seqvel, er, sequel, to Science Made Stupid "by the author of Science
Made Stupid WiNNER OF A 1986 *HUGO* - you know, one of those little
Eastern European cars?" according to a blurb on the back. Yep, SMS
was the non-fiction winner that year.

Haven't read it yet, but winning shorts found in skimming include;
"Do not puncture, incinerate, or store above 451 degrees F"
"WARNING: The Attorney General Has Determined That Books May Contain
Harmful Or Dangerous Ideas."

And some wonderful ads in the back for PhD. Specs, and the FOODSTAR
II Combination Food & Word Processor.

Highly reccommended for humor (I suspect Dave Barry fans will
appreciate this).

tyg

(yes, I know it's not really about sf, but it's by a Yugo, er, Hugo
winner...)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #386
Date: 10 Sep 87 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #386
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 87 0941-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #386
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 386

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Zelazny (11 msgs) &
                            Book Comments &
                            1987 Hugo Winners

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 87 09:31:31 GMT
From: seismo!mcvax!dutrun!karel@RUTGERS.EDU (Karel van Houten)
Subject: Re: Amber

th@tcom.stc.co.uk writes:
>I've heard a lot about the Amber series and so I thought I'd give
>them a try. The question is, where to start.  Can anybody tell me
>the titles in their correct order ?

Well, I'm quoting from my memory, so the exact titles may be wrong,
but in general the sequence will be correct:

   1. Nine princes in Amber
   2. The guns of Avalon
   3. The sign of the unicorn
   4. The hand of Oberon
   5. The courts of chaos
   6. Trumps of doom
   7. Blood of Amber

It's a great series, Go and get it !!

Karel van Houten
...seismo!mcvax!dutrun!karel

------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 16:38:40 GMT
From: jbuck@epimass.epi.com (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: Amber

karel@dutrun.UUCP (Karel van Houten) writes:
>Well, I'm quoting from my memory, so the exact titles may be wrong,
>but in general the sequence will be correct:
>
>       1. Nine princes in Amber
>       2. The guns of Avalon
>       3. The sign of the unicorn
>       4. The hand of Oberon
>       5. The courts of chaos

These five form a complete story; I felt like everything is resolved
at the end of "Chaos".  Every SF/Fantasy fan should read these five!

>       6. Trumps of doom

I was disappointed in this book.  I didn't feel it had the quality
of the first five.  My main reaction was that Merlin is so much more
powerful than Corwin was that the only times he screws up are due to
his own overconfidence and stupidity, or by forgetting something.
He was too god-like to identify with, unlike the very human Corwin.

>       7. Blood of Amber

I almost didn't read this because of my reaction to "Trumps".
Fortunately, I did, and it's much better.  Merlin seems more human
here (still kinda stupid though).

>I't a great series, Go and get it !!

Yes, but it's OK to stop after five.

Joe Buck
jbuck@epimass.epi.com
{seismo,ucbvax,sun,decwrl,<smart-site>}!epimass.epi.com!jbuck
Old arpa mailers: jbuck%epimass.epi.com@seismo.css.gov

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 87 00:40:05 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: A true story for Amber fans.

Once upon a time when I happened to have some purple microdot LSD a
friend and I decided that, it being a beautiful fall Saturday
afternoon, that there was nothing better to do than go tripping and
driving up in the Santa Cruz mountains.  So we got psychedelic and
drove off. (Both of us had many, miles behind us as drivers and
passenger while tripping. We are professional fools; do not attempt
this trick at home.)

We were approaching the outer limits of Woodside when we slowed for
a stop sign and I noticed a bright pink sign with bright blue
letters on it saying: AMBER ----->.  We pulled away from the stop
sign and I was too stunned to say anything for about ten seconds.
Then I screeched, "Did you SEE that SIGN?" Well, David, the driver,
had not, so we wheeled around and returned.  There it was.  It was
the corner of Tripp Road.

Well, both having read the five Amber novels, and both being
disgusted enough by mundane reality to pick up and leave on the
spot, we zoomed off down Tripp Road.  About 300 yards down it,
across from a sidestreet, there was an identical sign.  We turned
the corner and saw a third sign off ahead.  Finally, we turned for
the last time, and the street ended in one of those white wood
fences with a reflector on it (so you don't charge through the fence
at night).  There was nothing but forest on the other side of the
barrier.  We sat there with the engine idling for several minutes,
then looked at each other.  David said, "If we just had enough
personal power, maybe we could find that road."

After all, all roads lead to Amber.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 04:56:14 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Amber series...

Ghostwheel asks how I know that there are five books in the new
Amber series.  It was either here or in LOCUS that I saw a notice
that Zelazny had signed with Arbor for a set of five books in the
new series.  As the notice said, don't expect "Sign of Chaos" to tie
up all the loose ends.  It will be good to have it to read, though.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 87 07:05:37 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Roger Zelazny

Tim Iverson:
>>   Zelazny, Roger
>>      The Changeling, Madwand
>>      Dilvish the Damned, The Changing Land
>>      Nine Princes in Amber, et.al.
>>      Lord of Light
>>      Creatures of Light and Darkness
>>      Last Defender of Camelot            (ss, some fantasy)
>>      Unicorn Variations                  (ditto)
> Zelazny's a lot of fun to read, but all his main characters are
> demi-gods.  You've also left out a few of his sf books that are
> much better than most of these.  In order of merit:
> _Lord_of_Light_ (really fantasy as sf), _Dream_Master_ (sf),
> _Doorways_in_the_Sand_ (sf), _Madwand_ (much better than
> _Changeling_, but second in the series).

A few comments on Tim's comments.  _Lord of Light_ is quite good and
so was _Doorways in the Sand_.

But _Dream Master_ was disappointing.  In fact, I consider it a
prime example of a case where an excellent short story was degraded
by being lengthened to a novel (the short story was "He Who
Shapes").

Another Zelazny book (actually collection) not mentioned is _The
Doors of His Face, The Lamps of His Mouth_.  This one is likely out
of print.  The title story won a Nebula and the rest of them are all
quite good.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 30 Aug 87 00:34:19 GMT
From: nancy!beach@RUTGERS.EDU (Covert Beach)
Subject: _Sign_Of_Chaos_

I know it wasn't supposed to be out until October, but...

I went down to the bookstore yesterday to get my weekly Comics fix
and saw that _Sign_Of_Chaos_ by Roger Zelazny has been released by
Arbor House.

I of course immediately whiped out my VISA Card (I didn't have the
cash) and bought it.

I enjoyed it.  Things are beginning to level off as far as Opening
new cans of worms.  Zelazny doesn't introduce anyone who we haven't
at least seen in a flashback.  Of course at the end the reader is
left with that thrilling sensation of flying off a cliff. (Hey!
Where did the ground go!?)

Merlin's step-brother Mandor turns out to have style. We find out
why Mask wants to make a coatrack out of our hero.  And - Oh! excuse
me, we do meet one more new character - I forgot, er, another
relative comes to visit.

Covert C Beach
..{ihnp4,pur-ee,umich,itivax,super,well}!msudoc!beach.UUCP
beach@msudoc.egr.mich-state.edu
PO Box 6585
E. Lansing, MI 48826-6585

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 87 16:00:42 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny

By the way, does anyone know whether Zelazny is planning to continue
the series that started with _Changeling_ and _Madwand_ ?  It
definitely wasn't finished.  Of course, after four years, I don't
remember anything but the broadest generalizations, so maybe I'm
better off without any more.

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 13:28:52 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: "Amber" graphic novel/portfolio

   Does anybody have information on a graphic novel based on Roger
Zelazny's "Amber" series?  I saw a copy of it last summer in a small
bookstore in the Boston area, but I don't know which one (I was lost
at the time).

   All I can remember clearly is an illustration of the "trumps"
with the various characters on them.  This may have been a portfolio
rather than a graphic novel.

   Any information which would help me to track it down (Title,
artist, publisher) will be most appreciated.

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 1 Sep 87 16:28:11 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Hand of Chaos (Roger Zelazny's new book) is out in
Subject: hardback.

laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
>Merlin gets a lot of the sort of experience that leaves you either
>wiser or dead.

And, knowing Merlin, I'd lay heavy odds on the former.  By the way,
isn't that title "The Courts of the Unicorn" ?  No, wait, it was
"Sign of Oberon".  Maybe "Nine Princes in Chaos" ?

Wait - The ultimate Amber Title: "Nine Bloody-Handed Princes of
Avalon Gun Down Oberon's Doomed, Chaotic, Courtly, Amber Unicorn"

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 15:52:59 GMT
From: sanjour@cvl.umd.edu (Joe Sanjour)
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny

dant@tekla.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
> But _Dream Master_ was disappointing.  In fact, I consider it a
> prime example of a case where an excellent short story was
> degraded by being lengthened to a novel (the short story was "He
> Who Shapes").

Another example is _Damnation Alley_, the novella was very good but
Zelazny's expansion of it to a novel didn't add anything at all.

Joseph Sanjour
Center for Automation Research
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
(301) 454-4526
ARPA: sanjour@cvl.umd.edu
UUCP: ...!cvl!sanjour

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 21:09:29 GMT
From: moss!mhuxu!davec@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Caswell)
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
> By the way, does anyone know whether Zelazny is planning to
> continue the series that started with _Changeling_ and _Madwand_ ?
> It definitely wasn't finished.

I asked Zelazny about this at a recent con, (Balticon?), and he said
that he had the next story in his head, he just had to get it down
onto paper.

Dave Caswell
{allegra|ihnp4|...}!mhuxu!davec

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 87 01:06:09 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Fall Announcements listing

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Every six months, Publisher's Weekly has a special jumbo issue
>chock full of advertisements by all the publishers pushing the
>major books of the next six months (460 pages worth, this time!).
>I've waded through them, and parsed out the books I think are of
>interest to folks.  My apologies in advance for typing errors,
>errors of omission, etc.

Thanks for typing this in, Chuq! Must have been a task and a half...

>The Black Unicorn. Terry Brooks. Hardcover. October. [sequel to
>Magic Kingdom for Sale! Sold!]

Sounds like a good book to avoid. The first book was boring and read
like an adventure game. Really. There were puzzles. There were
objects around.  Book consists of: man finds puzzles and objects.
man solves puzzles using objects. Some supporting characters have
occasional speaking roles.  There's a prophecy involved.

>Michael Whelan's Works of Wonders. Michael Whelan.  Hardcover,
>December.

An art book from Whelan? Great!

>Being a Green Mother. Piers Anthony. Hardcover. [book 5 of
>incarnations of immortality, the last one being published by Del
>Rey]

Let's see... it's a female lead, so "Nature" will have to fall in
love at least once with a handsome, noble looking man with some
easily-overlooked character flaw. "Nature" will be sensible but
given to wild dashes of emotion. And following the plot of the
previous four books (why do I read these things???), she'll be
recruited, learn her job slowly, brush with Satan once, then again,
and then the book will end. I imagine we'll finally get to see the
evil that Luna will prevent, happen, which means that it'll take
place about twenty years past the events in the last book.

I'll bet you the book ties pretty close to this description. Anthony
is _so_ incredibly predictable.

>Isaac Asimov Presents: Caliban Landing. Steven Popkes. Hardcover,
>November.

>Isaac Asimov Presents: Pennterra. Judith Moffett.  Hardcover,
>October.

>Isaac Asimov Presents: Station Gehenna. Andrew Weiner.  Hardover,
>September.

I wonder how these authors feel, when their publisher doesn't
believe they could sell the book without Isaac Asimov's name on it.
Could be that they're right. And what does that say about the
quality of the books.

>Darkspell. Katherine Kerr. Hardcover, September. [sequel to
>daggerspell, one of the better Fantasy's of the year. If you have
>never heard of it, don't feel bad -- Doubleday is well known for
>publishing and ignoring really good authors]

BTW - Katherine Kerr writes a lot of articles for TSR's "Dragon"
magazine.  I haven't read "Darkspell", but her articles in the
magazine have always been well researched and written.
Fantasy-Medieval millieu, of course - anything else wouldn't have
much of a chance in "Dragon". I'd guess these works were in the same
setting.

>When the Changewindes blow. Jack Chalker, September, Soul Rider
>series.

No, "Changewinds" is a new series, NOT an addition to the Soul Rider
books.  Or so I've heard.

>A difficulty with dwarves. Craig Shaw Gardner. December. [related to
>the very funny Ebenezum trilogy]

Wish I could find that trilogy. All I've seen was the UNFUNNY
Ebenezum trilogy. The books try too hard. Some of the episodes in
the first book were a little humorous. About the same level of
humour as Asprin's "Myth" books; i.e., not a hell of a lot.

>Forging the Darksword: Volume one of the The Kardword Trilogy.
>Margeret Weis and Tracy Hickman. January. [another fantasy trilogy.
>Oh, boy!]

Another fantasy trilogy. Oh boy. Yep, another epic quest through the
doldrums of kiddie fantasy. I read the "Dragonlance" books - all
three of them, spaced over a few months. What a waste. Not an
original idea in the bunch. Slavishly attached to the AD&D game (but
then, it was supposed to be). But it couldn't get any worse. Since
TSR isn't publishing this series, maybe they'll be able to depart
from the fantasy sewer.

But it's unlikely. Their work sells, always on the top twenty list
in Waldenbooks, and who has time for art when you're busy making
money?

>IT. Stephen King. September.

Already out. Have it already, even.

>Eyes of the dragon. Stephen King. January. [don't YOU wish you have
>the problem of an author who writes so fast his new book comes out
>before the last one leaves the best sellers list?]

"Eye of the Dragon" is a light fantasy written intentionally for
children. By using wide margins and large type, King managed to fill
out an entire book-sized slab of paper. If printed with normal type
and margins, it wouldn't be a very thick book. $4.50 is extremely
expensive for this book - he's selling his name, now. I think his
disastrous "Richard Bachman" experiment has proven this.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 00:30:51 GMT
From: tyg@eddie.mit.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: 1987 Hugo Winners

Well, since no one else has posted it...

The 1987 Hugo winners were:

Novel: Speaker For The Dead - Orson Scott Card. (In a side note,
L.Ron Hubbard's Black Genesis finished dead last, even behind No
Award).

Novella: Gilgamesh In The Outback - Robert Silverberg
Novellette: Permafrost - Roger Zelazny
Short Story: Tangents - Greg Bear
Editor: Terry Carr (on the second ballot. For those of you thinking
 "Sympathy vote", it should also be noted that he had obtained the
 most nominations for the category, and the nominations cutoff was
 before his death)
Artist: Jim Burns
Dramatic Presentation: Aliens
Semi-Prozine: Locus (The hoax issue of the daily connewszine
  substituted the category "Best Issue Of Locus" here...)
Fanzine: Ansible
Fan Writer: Dave Langford (publisher of Ansible, and possessor of
  the home field advantage)
Fan Artist: Brad Foster
Non-Fiction: Trillion Year Spree - Brian Aldriss (Dark Knight
   finished 2nd.)
John W. Campbell Award: Karen Joy Fowler

And the 1990 Worldcon will be in Holland. Pro Guests of Honor will
be Harry Harrison, Joe Haldeman, and a German editor whose name
wasn't remembered by the friends I picked up at the airport. Fan GoH
will be Andy Porter of SF Chronicle. Expect Locus and File 770 to
have a field day with this, due to Andy's editorials in SFC
advocating Holland.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #387
Date: 10 Sep 87 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #387
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 87 0945-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #387
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 387

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 06:00:52 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!macleod@RUTGERS.EDU (MacLeod)
Subject: Origin of "Tuatha de Danaan"

Robert Graves, in his difficult but rich book "The White Goddess",
identifies the Tuatha de Danaan as "the people of Dana", or Danu, or
Tana, all names of the moon Goddess who survives as Diana.  He
asserts that the Tuatha emmigrated from the Black Sea area, around
Colchis, and established themselves in Ireland.  It's hard to
remember the sequence of migrations and invasions, but I think that
they moved in on the original dark Iberian peoples.  One traditional
witch chant, untranslated/able, was recently shown to be a phonetic
transcription of a Basque text.

I'm not sure, but I think these physically smaller Iberians were the
Picts of legends, known to us as Pixies, and named for their
interest in tatooing.  I think they began the custom of vitrified
ramparts and buildings, too, but I could be confusing things here.

Mike MacLeod

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 13:43:36 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: tolkien/apartheid

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>So, is white always associated with good?  Well, though many things
>of Mordor are black, or at least dark, some at least are white or
>pale: the horrible flowers in Imlad Morgul are white; the corpse
>lights in the Dead Marshes are white (or pale); and, as I
>remembered only a little while ago, the Nazgul, of all things, are
>white when seen while wearing the Ring.  Only their cloaks and
>horses are black.

One other example, as if it were necessary: The sign of the white
hand, used by the Orcs at Saruman's tower.  The hand certainly was
not a sign of anything good, despite its color.

Pete Granger

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 87 15:55:21 GMT
From: urban@sol.sps.trw.com (Michael Urban)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

myers@tybalt.caltech.edu (Bob Myers) writes:
>A. Milne writes:
>>I have just remembered something that has long puzzled me: there
>>exist at least two Elvish words for "tower": "minas" and "barad".
>>Does anybody know the reason for this?  Does it simply turn out
>>that Sindarin his two words for "tower" (and for "hill", for that
>>matter: "amon" and "dol")?  Or is there some more interesting
>>derivation here?
>
>Don't know about Minas/Barad, but it looks like Minas may be
>Quenya, not Sindarin. Maybe that's the difference.

Minas derives from the root min- "one" (cf. tar-Minyatur, first king
of Numenor).  Barad derives from the earlier root mbar- "dwelling",
(cf. Q. Eldamar "Elvenhome".)  Evidently, "Minas" refers to the
structure of the tower itself (a singular structure), whereas
"Barad" refers to its function.  Both are Sindarin.

Mike Urban
trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 87 06:46:53 GMT
From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Tolkiens's writing

PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET writes:
> Perhaps [JRRTolkien] is the only *Science* Fiction author who is

You consider Tolkien's work to be *Science* Fiction?  I would class
it as fantasy.  (Well, actually, I would prefer to call it
"history", but that is another issue....)

> Probably JRRT has taken more trouble to get his names right than
> any other writer in this century(8->))?

Quite likely.  If only all writers would take as much trouble to
build their worlds as JRRT did....  We would have vastly fewer books
published, but I can't help feeling the resulting quality would make
up for it (not to mention that I can't hope to read more than a few
of what is published now).

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 87  19:09:43 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Tolkien's Hobbit Names (for the last time)

I have looked up the source of Tolkien's hobbit surnames in every
single reference book on Tolkien I could find; the Carpenter
biography, Tolkien's letters, Grotta-Kursa's book, etc., etc. (at
least five or six besides the biography).  NOT ONE even mentions
West Virginia!  So unless someone can find a letter by Tolkien or
his son Christopher (in short, some proof beyond the
"sophistication" of the West Virginia theory) the verdict is clear:
*this is a myth.  Period.  End of statement.*

As for Matthew Wiener's request as to the actual source of the
hobbit names (besides the mythical West Virginia phonebook), the
only one with an acknowledged source is Gamgee.  Evidently there was
a type of cottonwool in Edwardian England named "Dr. Gamgee's," and
Tolkien remembered the name.

Final word: whenever you hear a crazy rumor like this, please *look
it up!!!!!!*

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 14:29:24 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!ukc!epistemi!irene@RUTGERS.EDU (Irene
From: Orr)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

>Many are just pure old simple English names that are found
>everywhere there are Englishmen or their descendants.  Tolkien used
>names from locations (Underhill), and plant-sounding names (Ferny)
>as well as other means of inventing his names.  Why should anyone
>be surprised to find such names are real English names?  He was a
>philologist, after all.

An acquaintance of mine, Nicholas Underhill, corresponded with
Tolkien as a schoolboy, on a point of Elvish grammar.  Tolkien
actually mentioned that he & a friend (two Winchester schoolboys)
had written to him in an interview published some time ago in, I
think, the Sunday Times.

Fernie is a Scottish surname (although not particularly common).

I don't know why it should be considered so difficult for Tolkien to
have done what most other authors do, that is, to use names for his
characters that he has either met before in real life or has made up
- after making up a whole language or two, a few names would be
trivial,

Irene Orr
irene@epistemi.ed.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 87 19:32:40 GMT
From: cpf@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: The W. Va Tel. Book Mystery:  Solved

It finally occurred to me that friend of mine, Doug Anderson, is one
of the world authorities on Tolkien and "The Lord of the Rings", so
I asked him about where hobbit names come from.  His answer was that
no one knows for certain, but that Kentucky is a good bet!

He also told me what the probable source of the "West Virginia
Telephone Book" story is: in 1976 (plus or minus a year) Guy
Davenport wrote an interview of Alan Barnett for the New York Times.
The title of the article was "Hobbits in Kentucky".  Alan Barnett, a
Kentuckian, and later a teacher in West Virginia, was a classmate of
Tolkien's in college.  Barnett quotes him as saying something to
effect that Tolkien asked him [Barnett] a lot about the names the
unusual names that occurred in Kentucky.  Barnett suggested that one
look in telephone books if one wants evidence of the existence of
these names.

It is easy to see how a slight garbling of Davenport's article could
result in someone saying that Tolkien got his hobbit names from a
West Virginia telephone book.

Thus it seems likely that some of the hobbit names come from
Kentucky.  This is certainly not true of all of them, though.  For
example, Doug's opinion is that Grubb and Burrowes simply come from
Tolkien's desire to insult lawyers, and Doug told me that
Christopher told him that Christopher's father (JRRT) told
Christopher that Sackville-Baggins comes from Tolkien's irritation
with hyphenated names -- he gave his most ridiculous character a
hyphenated name, and made the first part of the name (Sack)
redundant with the second part (Bag).

(If you are wondering who Doug Anderson is, the next time you are in
your bookstore, take a look at the new hardcover omnibus edition of
TLOTR.  It starts with a three page "Note on the Text".  The author
of that note is Douglas Anderson.)

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 87 13:15 EST
From: "nj"                                       
From: <SJN3CA%IRISHMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Tolkien's names

About the person who mentioned that there were people in San
Francisco named "Frodo Baggins" and "B. Baggins": In that instance,
it's probably most likely that they were named that deliberately by
Tolkien-fanatic parents.  Stranger things have been known to happen.
(I had a friend in junior high whose name was Elrond...not by
coincidence, either...his mother loved Tolkien.)

nj
sjn3ca@irishmvs.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 15:23:45 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: BBC Tape of _Lord of the Rings_ (longish)

In 1980, BBC radio produced a dramatisation of the Lord of the Rings
running to thirteen hour-long episodes.  It was repeated early this
year.  BBC Enterprises subsequently brought it out as a thirteen
cassette boxed set. The address to write for more information is:

   BBC Cassettes
   Dept CB
   Cirencester
   Gloucs   GL7 1RI

Having ordered on two occasions, I can say shipment, which is by
recorded parcel post, may take a while: I guess they produce the
things in batches.

I enquired about availability in the USA (that being where most of
the contributors to this newsgroup reside), and got this reply:

   The product is not available in the USA, however, we hope to find
   a distributor shortly.  In the meantime, overseas orders are
   being dealt with by Harrods, Knightsbridge, London SW1 7XL,
   marked for the Records Department.

   Interested parties should enquire the price of package and
   posting before sending any money.  Credit cards are accepted.

(That was from Annabel Cotterell, Marketing Co-ordinator at BBC
Enterprises, Woodlands, 80 Wood Lane, London W12 0TT -- phone +44 1
743 5588, to whom I suppose prospective overseas distributors might
apply.)

I called Harrods (their number is +44 1 730 1234) and spoke to the
record department.  They have the set in stock now.  Probably the
most pain-free way of getting hold of the thing is to call or write
to Harrods, quoting a ``major credit card'' number and expiry date,
letting them work out the exact price to charge you.

                        But is it any good?
                       (Mild SPOILERS ahead)

                         Emphatically YES!

The production follows the books extremely closely, even to the
extent of taking most speech and much narrative verbatim.  There has
been some deft editing and tightening up, both to make conversation
work better, and to help compress the work, but it doesn't show
unless you're looking for it.  What does occasionally show is the
radio drama device of referring in conversation to things which, in
real life, would be totally obvious to anybody present.  There's
also the occasional seemingly incidental recap on what has gone
before, presumably because listeners are not expected to be able to
flip back in the book to find out.  Trivia buffs may also note that
many negative references to ``black men'' and similar have
inexplicably been rewritten!

There is divergence from the books in two important respects.
Firstly, some interesting, but ultimately inconsequential sequences,
are omited or elided.  Mirkwood and Tom Bombadil are sadly gone, as
are the Trollshaws and the Entwives, to name but two.  The Scouring
of the Shire is also somewhat rushed.  Secondly, the narrative in
the later parts of the work switches much more frequently between
the various combatants.  This last is an improvement which snipers
at Tolkien have often suggested.

Acting and characterisation is, for the most part, also good (why
did they do that to Nob, though?), and sound effects are used
sparingly and to good effect.  Specially-composed music is also
available on a BBC record.  I, and others I have talked to, find
some of the song settings a bit too much to take (what eagle would
sing like that?), but this seems to be a general problem for all who
would put tunes to those words.

Technically, the Dolby B recording onto chrome cassettes is
excellent, and the breaks between sides A and B have been carefully
chosen to be as natural as possible -- even where this means wasting
a lot of tape at the end of the second side.  Purchasers should
probably note that the copyright notice specifies domestic use only:
it can't be broadcast.  I suppose, although I have not checked, that
broadcasters should apply to the BBC Transcription Service, Bush
House, London.

In closing, I remember a good early 70's BBC radio production of The
Hobbit.  Will we ever hear that again, I wonder?

Dominic Dunlop
domo@riddle.uucp
domo@sphinx.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 16:16:42 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Dominic Dunlop)
Subject: Re: BBC Tape of _Lord of the Rings_ (longish)

Before anybody asks, the cast list for the BBC Radio production of
_The Lord of the Rings_ is

Frodo                   Ian Holm
Gandalf                 Michael Horden
Aragorn                 Robert Stephens
Gollum                  Peter Woodthorpe
Bilbo                   John Le Mesurier
Sam                     William Nighy
Merry                   Richard O'Callahan
Pippin                  John McAndrew
Legolas                 David Collings
Gimli                   Doulas Livingstone
Boromir                 Michael Graham Cox
Denethor                Peter Vaughan
Faramir                 Andrew Seear
Theoden                 Jack May
Eomer                   Anthony Hyde
Eowyn                   Elin Jenkins
Saruman                 Peter Howell
Grima Wormtongue        Paul Brooke
Elrond                  Hugh Dickson
Galadriel               Marian Diamond
Celeborn                Simon Cadell
Treebeard               Stephen Thorne
Butterbur               James Grout
Farmer Maggot           John Bott
Lord of the Nazgul      Philip Voss
Mouth of Sauron         John Rye

The narrator            Gerald Murphy

        etcetera, etcetera

The boxed cassette set itself appears to have no number, although
the individual cassettes themselves are numbered Rings01 through
Rings13.

By the way, I got the original production date wrong: it was 1981,
not 1980.

Dominic Dunlop
domo@riddle.uucp
domo@sphinx.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 13:42:54 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!ukc!uel!olgb1!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Dominic Dunlop)
Subject: Re: BBC Tape of _Lord of the Rings_ (longish)

Further information from BBC Enterprises about the 13-cassette
edition of _Lord of the Rings_:

1. For further general information, call +44 1 576 0600.  This works
   better than the number given in my first posting.

2. The product ``will be available shortly in the USA.''  A
   distributor has been appointed, but cannot, as yet, be named.

3. Among distributors whose names can be told are Polygram in
   Autralia/New Zealand, and Grammafon Elektra (?) in
   Sweden/Denmark.

4. A ``trade edition'' will be launched in the UK on 12th October.
   It will be available through any retail outlet served by EMI.

5. The catalogue number of the product is RINGS 1.

Dominic Dunlop
domo@riddle.uucp
domo@sphinx.co.uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #388
Date: 10 Sep 87 1014-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #388
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 87 1014-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #388
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 388

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - History of SF (8 msgs) & Psi

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 23:42:16 GMT
From: ames!kccs!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>I have never heard anyone claim that Jules Verne invented science
>fiction.  That honor is usually accorded to Mary Wollstonecraft
>Shelley (whose mother, Mary Wollstonecraft, invented feminism, and
>died giving birth to her daughter), who wrote the first genuine
>science fiction novel, "Frankenstein, or, Prometheus Unbound".  (Or
>is it "Unchain'd"?  Anyway, I think you may have heard of the
>book...)

I have often heard it claimed that Verne invented science fiction.
It depends on what you mean by ``invent''.  If you start knowing
what science fiction is, and then say ``what is the earliest science
fiction story'' you end up with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.  (And
even then, I think that you are wrong -- but I have a whole shelf of
chinese folk tales, some of which, I think, could be called science
fiction.)  On the other hand, if you look at science fiction as, by
definition, something which people try to write, then it makes sense
to date things from the writing of Verne.  After Verne was published,
there were hundreds of people who decided that this new sort of
fiction could sell very well, and who tried to imitate it.

How much of this was due to the appeal of science fiction?  I don't
know how to judge.  Dumas and Dickens, among others, demonstrated
that you could make a living writing popular fiction for a large
audience.  Until this was established, there could be no ``science
fiction market'' -- even if there were occasional books written,
which, these days, we would call science fiction.

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 04:16:07 GMT
From: jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

>Second, the subtitle of FRANKENSTEIN is "or, The New [in some
>editions Modern] Prometheus."  "Prometheus Unbound" was a major
>poem by her sometime husband, Percy Bysshe Shelley.

The orginal "Prometheus Unbound" was actually a lost (unfortunately)
play from a trilogy by either Aeschylus (sp!?) or Euripedes.  I
cannot remember which author was responsible, but both "Prometheus,
the Fire Bringer" and "Prometheus Unbound" which are the second and
third (although probably not respectively -- again, memory lapse)
were lost.  Thus, only "Prometheus Bound" -- the first play --
remains, which is a pretty good yarn in and of itself.  Good
reading.

John
jl3j@andrew.cmu.edu
jl3j@td.cc.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 87 17:38:06 GMT
From: smith@cos.com (Steve Smith)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

cosckla@uhnix1.UUCP (Thomas Jefferson Garfield Smith)  writes:
[ notes on the "history" of science fiction ]

This whole thing bears the mark of the typical "academic" analysis
of science fiction, which essentially attempts to co-opt the entire
field for the "literary" mafia.  Note that the true founders of SF
as we know it (Gernsbeck, Campbell, Williamson, Smith) do not even
get mentioned, while the field is defined (by the author) in terms
of "mainstream" fiction.

Now for some individual points.
>   Jules Verne is acknowledged as the father of Science Fiction.
>This fact is acknowledged by all.

No.  Verne is a very important progenitor, but the title of "father"
is a bit much.  In particular, you will get into a lot of arguments
with the fans of H. G. Wells.  If you're searching for "ultimate
roots", you will have to go back to at least Plato.  The literary
gimmick of inventing a society to prove a point goes back at least
that far.  "Scientific" gimmicks go back at least to Jonathan Swift.

My own candidate (here come the flames!) is John W. Campbell, Jr.
As editor of "Astounding Science Fiction" (later "Analog") he took
the bits and pieces of the time and molded them into a literary form
that is recognizable as modern SF.

>(I really need to look at Edgar Rice Burroughs, too).

Yes, you do.  "A Princess of Mars" probably had more effect on the
course of science fiction than Huxley, Orwell, and Koestler
combined.

>   Apparently S-F must have floundered until the 30's when Huxley
>wrote Brave New World.

From a "literary" standpoint, probably.  However, the 30's gave us
Campbell's "Astounding" and authors like E. E. Smith, Jack
Williamson, and Clifford Simak.  This is the time when the "pulps"
were starting (in fits and starts) to make the transition from pure
potboilers to something with a bit more substance.

>Zane Grey wrote western novels, it is true. Nevertheless, I have
>long suspected that many of his novels, by changing words
>throughout, I.E.  Horse=Rocketship, Rifle=Raygun, Rancher's
>Daughter= Martian Princess, etc., were often used to generate pulp
>SF novels.

Have you ever heard the phrase "space opera"?  That's exactly where
it came from, by analogy with "horse opera".

>   Which brings us to Isaac Asimov. I am not sure if I could be
>totally happy with his literature. If Orwell were alive today , he
>would lash at Asimov for regurgitating the popular ideas of the
>times, and for using unnecessarily long words. Orwell, as we all
>know, was paradoxically a Socialist who attacked the Communists.
>Non-religious Orwell, (the same one who wrote the sacreligious
>Clergyman's Daughter) would definitely be interested in attacking
>anti-religious, or at least anti-Eastern Orthodox Asimov's
>Byzantine Empire for his innapropriate failure to discard his 20th
>Century Rationalistic biases in much the same manner that Orwell
>attacked Arthur Miller's complacent-to-Nazis Tropic of Cancer (yes,
>that "Dirty Book") in his Essay, Inside a Whale.

Let's see, now.  You don't think you like Asimov because you don't
think that Orwell would have liked his stuff.  He "regurgited the
popular ideas of the times" and he can't "discard his 20th Century
Rationalistic biases".  The first statement is rather strange.
Gibbon (where he stole most of the "Foundtion" trilogy) was never
exactly popular until the "doom and gloom" mainstream authors
started preaching it, sometime in the '60s.  As to 20th century
rationalism, Asimov revels in it.  What, pray tell, should be the
alternative?  15th century mysticism? (:-)

If you insist on having somebody who has been dead for a good number
of years judge your reading for you, you are going to have a short
reading list. (:-)

BTW, Asimov isn't one of my favorites, either.  He types 90 words
per minute, and his stuff shows it.

>... I understand that he [Asimov] has his own sci-fi magazine.

You hadn't noticed? (:-) Actually, it has his name on it.  His
involvement seems to be in writing one editorial a month for it.

In any case, why only Asimov?  He didn't really get going until
after WWII, by which time there were dozens of top notch SF writers
around.

From the looks of this history, I would suggest that you get out of
the "literary criticism" section of the library and into the
"science fiction" section.  Look at what people read.  Look at what
sells in the chain stores in the malls.  I'll give you a hint - it's
not Orwell.  The stuff that satisfies the "literary" types tends to
be read by nobody - even the people who claim to like it.

A couple of things to keep in mind.

1.  Most "pulp" SF was published in a far more restrictive cultural
climate than we have today.  The fact that it is sexist, racist, and
doesn't admit the existence of sex or bathrooms was necessary to get
it published.  "Conforming to community norms" was often the
difference between seeing your stuff published in a national
magazine and passing it around on typewritten sheets.

2.  Keep in mind that scientific theories, which are the basis of
most science fiction, are changing so fast that not even the
scientists can keep up.  A science fiction story has to be looked at
in the light of the science of the time.  By this standard, for
example, "A Princess of Mars" comes out as scientifically accurate.

3.  The attitude of most of the early SF authors was one of extreme
technophilia.  This is not currently approved among the literari
(most of whom know nothing about science and care less).  Note that
your examples ("Brave New World", "1984") focus on dystopias.  This
is NOT characteristic of the field.  It is the attitude of the
literari (we are all living in a sewer) that is the aberration.

S. G. Smith
smith@cos.com

------------------------------

Date: 18 Aug 87 20:17:19 GMT
From: chrz@ihlpf.att.com (Chrzanowski)
Subject: History of Science Fiction

>    Jules Verne is acknowledged as the father of Science Fiction.
> This fact is acknowledged by all. He uses science as a tool for
> some of his ...  He was always interested in having legitimate
> technology being potentially able to provide whatever inventions
> he needed in whatever he wrote.

Didn't Verne write that story about a journey to the Moon in which
the astronauts' capsule is shot from a gun ?  I have a foggy memory
of calculating the acceleration of the capsule in the gun barrel
(assuming zero air friction and minimum velocity necessary to reach
the Moon, given the length of the gun barrel in the book ) and
concluding that those astros reached the Moon as blood pudding.

If this is indeed Verne then I would doubt the "legitimate
technology" of this story, as escape velocity and (Newtonian)
physics of motion were well known in his day.

(I do remember being puzzled by the title _20,000 Leagues Under the
Sea_ until I learned that a league was about 3 miles and therefore
referred to the distance traveled, not the depth. )

------------------------------

Date: 22 Aug 87 06:53:15 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (David W. Berry)
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

chrz@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Chrzanowski) writes:
>Didn't Verne write that story about a journey to the Moon in which
>the astronauts' capsule is shot from a gun ?  I have a foggy memory
>of calculating the acceleration of the capsule in the gun barrel
>(assuming zero air friction and minimum velocity necessary to reach
>the Moon, given the length of the gun barrel in the book ) and
>concluding that those astros reached the Moon as blood pudding.
>
>If this is indeed Verne then I would doubt the "legitimate
>technology" of this story, as escape velocity and (Newtonian)
>physics of motion

Believe it or not, this is one of the means of cheaply getting
things (and presumably some day people) into orbit.  Some of the
other possiblities are even more far-fetched, like throwing it up in
the air on a large chunk of ice and then shooting the ice with a
laser beam, thus causing it to vaporize and create thrust.

Jordin, you out there to correct me on this and give out more
accurate descriptions, such as your talk at TimeCon?

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp
dwb@Delphi
dwb@apple.com
293-0752@408.MaBell

------------------------------

Date: 04 September 87 09:58 EDT
From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: History of SF

No doubt this entry into the discussion will be really too late,
given time lags in distribution, but...

It is true there are many 'contenders' for the honor of '1st SF'
story that go all the way back (I'm thinking of Gilgamesh, eg....).
The problem with putting forth such a claim for any of them is that
they were all written as straight literature, i.e., one distinction
used to separate SF from other fiction is that SF tries to examine
questions about how life/ethics/et al.  would be different if
such-and-such (tech. innovation, alt. history, etc.)  happened; but
Swift, de Bergerac, Ariosto, Dante, ad inf., while they make use of
'alien settings' and other devices that a modern reader would label
SF-like, are using them not in any extrapolative way but 'merely'
for purposes of satire/allegory/myth/what-have-you. FRANKENSTEIN is
the first work that asks an extrapolative question: "What are the
ethics involved if we achieve the ability to create life?" It is
this aspect of it that makes it the 1st SF novel, at least for my
money.

Artie Samplaski
Cornell Lab of Nuc. Studies
Bitnet: UUAJ @ CORNELLA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 87 17:01:41 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: History of SF

Actually, there was a novel written by an ancient Greek that was
definitely science fiction. It includes a trip to the moon, and I
think there is extra-terrestrial life.  For the title, check COSMOS,
by Sagan.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 15:09:04 GMT
From: moss!inuxd!jody@RUTGERS.EDU (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: History of SF

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> Actually, there was a novel written by an ancient Greek that was
> definitely science fiction. It includes a trip to the moon, and I
> think there is extra-terrestrial life.  For the title, check
> COSMOS, by Sagan.

The only one I can remember being mentioned was a book called
_Dreams_.  At least that is what the title meant.  It was written by
Kepler(?sp) in the mid 1500's.  I remember this because Kepler's
mother was accused of witchcraft and Kepler blamed himself.  In his
story the hero was transported to the moon by a spell from his
mother.  Kepler however believed that man would sail to the moon in
ships that were adapted to the move in space, but he didn't think
anyone would believe that.  In COSMOS, Carl Sagan says something to
the effect that Kepler wrote the story to explain the moon and its
relationship to the Earth.

Is this the story you meant or is there another one I missed?

jody

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  8 Sep 87 21:37:38 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Psi
To: pyramid!amdahl!ames!elroy!jplgodo!wlbr!etn-rad!jru@UCBVAX.BERKELEY
To: .EDU

pyramid!amdahl!ames!elroy!jplgodo!wlbr!etn-rad!jru@Ucb-Vax.arpa
(John Unekis) writes:
> In order to gain even a modicum of credibility the psychics need
> to measure some vary basic things about the forces they claim to
> generate.
>
> Strength of the field ... Source of Field ... Propagation Speed

Most advocates of psychic powers claim that it is somehow above such
things - that it can work through grounded lead walls, back through
time, etc etc.  They denigrate "single vision, and Newton's sleep".

> Luke Skywalker's spaceship is stuck in the mud. He can't possibly
> free it by himself. Suddenly Obi-Wan Kenobi appears to him in a
> vision and says "Use a Magnet , Luke!". Luke drives up an
> industrial crane, lowers the large electromagnet, and pulls up the
> spaceship.  ... Real exciting huh?

*I* think it is.  I have never seen what's so attractive about
fantasy.  Fiction is interesting to the extent that it is
conceivable that it could happpen.  Much that it scientific is
mysterious, at least at first.  But the excitement of a mystery is
in the solving, in the clouds of confusion and doubt gradually
lifting to reveal magnificent vistas.  I have a great antipathy for
the mystical world view, the idea that some things will never be
understood, and are permanently beyond the scope of man's mind, and
are of value for that very reason, and that we should rejoice in
this.  I get no pleasure from reading of man's impotence and
inability to understand or deal with reality.

"Perhaps ... a peculiar, totally alien mind was needed to comprehend
it - a mind possibly endowed biologically with fundamentally
different instincts and schooled in a different process of
conditioning concerning what what made sense, what didn't, what was
sane, and what was crazy."  Sigh.  Believe it or not, this was
written by James Hogan, usually one of the more rational SF authors.

> here were a psychic force, and it ever was repeatably deonstrated,
> I have a 'premonition' that the cadre of true believers would,
> instead of studying advanced math and physics to better understand
> the force, rather go on to look up faeries, or the Bermuda
> trianlge, or something else that would allow them to live in a
> fantasy world without concrete limits.

Exactly.

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #389
Date: 10 Sep 87 1102-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #389
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 87 1102-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #389
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 389

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Anvil & Asimov & Brin &
                          Brooks (2 msgs) & Cook (2 msgs) &
                          Crowley & McCollum &
                          Henry Miller & Moorcock &
                          Saberhagen & Sagan (2 msgs) &
                          Silverberg

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 08:49:11 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: re: Christopher Anvil
To: boyajian@akov68.dec.com

From:   dant@tekla.tek.com      (Dan Tilque)
>> Pandora's Planet
>>   someone once told me that there's a sequel to this one, but I
>>   haven't been able to find it.
>
>Only four novelettes.

   Are these four novelettes, the ones which came out in Analog late
sixties, or some time in the seventies with the Earthman, (John
Travis?)  who solved the teleport problem, the humanoids who ate
everything, and the King's men?  (I can't remember a fourth.)  Or
did Anvil write other stories about the main characters from
"Pandora's Planet"?
    Thanks.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 87 18:13:14 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Robots and Empire/Foundation and Earth (mild spoiler)

I haven't read F+E yet, but I did read R+E. When I finished it, the
question immediately sprang to my mind. "Why did Daneel remove all
references to Earth from the Galactic Library?" I understand that
Daneel actually _did_ show up in F+E. Did I guess right, and did
anyone else see that same question?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 10:42:07 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60HC)
Subject: Religion in _The Postman_

domo@riddle.UUCP (Dominic Dunlop) writes:
>Yes.  And I, having visited the USA on several Sunday mornings, was
>very surprised that today's fundamentalist religion played no part
>in Brin's deservedly much-lauded _The Postman_.  Instead the book
>invents a about three cults of its own.  Would this really happen?
>Does it really matter?  (No.)

_The Postman_ takes place in Oregon, a state which has many virtues.
(Modesty occasionally not being one of them :-) One of these virtues
is that Fundamentalism is not very prevalent, at least when compared
with other parts of the US (especially the South and Midwest).

One of the other cults that you mention is based on the survivalist
movement which is rather strong (at least by reputation) in the
southern part of the state.  As for the other cults (the intelligent
computer and the postman himself), who knows.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 20:15:00 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Good (literary) Fantasy (was Re: Earthsea,Belgariad
Subject: etc.....)

mkao@crash.CTS.COM (Mike Kao) writes:
>I disagree that Terry Brooks' _Shannara_ trilogy is a complete copy
>of Tolkien's_Lord of the Rings_. I'll admit that the first one,
>_The Sword of Shannara_, was very unoriginal and that maybe that
>one was a complete transliteration of Tolkien; however, the other 2
>were original, and in my opinion, pretty entertaining.

I'd go a step further; only the first half of _The Sword of
Shannara_ is a rip-off; Brooks gets increasingly far from the
Tolkien line, and by the end is telling a different story entirely.

On the other hand, I would only rate the series at about three stars
minus; it is reasonably well written, but very much formula fantasy.
_Magic Kingdom for Sale: Sold_ is much more original.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 03:57:31 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Terry Brooks (was Re: Good (literary) Fantasy (was Re:
Subject: ...)))))))

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>mkao@crash.CTS.COM (Mike Kao) writes:
>>[paraphasing: _Shannara_ is not too good, but the other 2 were o.k.]
>I'd go a step further; only the first half of _The Sword of
>Shannara_ is a rip-off; Brooks gets increasingly far from the
>Tolkien line, and by the end is telling a different story entirely.

By increasingly far, I guess you must mean disregarding the
characters, their mannerisms, and their little subplots.  Sure,
"Shannara" is a different book, after all, its got different color
ink and a new typeface - when someone says apples are like oranges,
he doesn't mean apples are oranges.  The problem with Brooks'
trilogy is that the plots (shallow as they are, they're still there)
and the characters are direct lifts from Tolkien's TLoTR, but they
wear different clothes and answer to different names.

>On the other hand, I would only rate the series at about three
>stars minus; it is reasonably well written, but very much formula
>fantasy.  _Magic Kingdom for Sale: Sold_ is much more original.

I don't see how you could give *any* stars to such trash as Terry
Brooks writes.  His characters are shallow cardboard puppets that
mouth forced lines and 'plotless' is his middle name.  In order to
enjoy a Brooks novel, you need to be more than willing to suspend
disbelief, you need to be able to supress your gag reflex as well.
.5 pt for plot (what there was, was stolen), .5 pts for character
development (they're moved not moving), .5 pts for style (juvenile),
and if anyone brings up theme, I'll add you to my kill file.  So,
out of a possible 40 pts (10 for each rating), I'd give him a 1.5.
Sorry Terry, but in the immortal words of Bruce Lee, "Your kung fu
... 's not too good."

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 87 11:49:46 EDT
Subject: Re: fantasy recs/Glen Cook
From: markl@allspice.LCS.MIT.EDU

>   I pick up Glen's stuff whenever I see it. Since I get Locus I
>usually know in advance of his book's appearances on the shelves,
>and start haunting the bookstores as they are due to appear on the
>shelves.  Locus just reviewed his newest (_Sweet Steel Blue_, or
>was it Sweet Blue Steel???  oh well, something like that) and rated
>it as among the best stuff he's done, but it hasn't arrived in
>Lexington yet.

"Sweet Silver Blues".  I read it a few weeks back and was
unimpressed.  A fairly lightweight book, nowhere nearly as finely
written as his Black Company trilogy (you mentioned a "fourth book
on the way": when?).

Mark L. Lambert
MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
Distributed Systems Group
markl@ptt.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 87 14:59:12 EDT
From: brothers@who.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: in re Glen Cook

I also agree that Cook's writing is some of the best in fantasy, and
is also largely unsung. One thing, though, he sometimes gets
attached to some word like "provenance" and repeats it again and
again and again...

I think, too, the Black Company is his best work. The Darkwar
trilogy was strictly mediocre, but I did like the
submarine/spaceship book.

I never read the entire Star Skimmers series since I didn't like the
first book. The Dread Empire is what first turned me onto Cook, but
on rereading it seems a little raw in terms of style, a little too
comic-booky, if you know what I mean. But still, better than the
Elves, Dwarves, and EVIL LORD dreck....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 00:39:59 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu (Uncia Uncia)
Subject: BEASTS by John Crowley (was Re: LITTLE, BIG by JOHN CROWLEY)

Having read all of Crowley's "fantasy" novels except "AEGYPT" I find
now that the only one I really enjoyed was "Beasts". With the
exception of "Beasts", I think I was fascinated by his style, and
never really got much out of the story told. With "Beasts" I was
unable to put the book down until I finished. It really pointed up
the potential for man's irresponsibility with his technology.

Did anyone else out there like/dislike "Beasts"?

Mike Collier
Univ. of New Mexico
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
unmvax.unm.edu!ariel!collier

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 04:21:37 GMT
From: wales@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Any more Michael McCollum novels coming out soon?

Does anyone know if Michael McCollum has any more novels in the
works?

I've read his four already-published works (A Greater Infinity; Life
Probe; Procyon's Promise; Antares Dawn).  I'm particularly hoping
that he'll come out with a sequel to _Life_Probe_ and
_Procyon's_Promise_, and though I enjoyed _Antares_Dawn_, I was
rather disappointed that this book was not said hoped-for sequel.

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024-1596
+1 213-825-5683
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 87 15:57 EDT
From: Theodora Stratis <stratis@VALLECITO.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #364

>Non-religious Orwell, (the same one who wrote the sacreligious
>Clergyman's Daughter) would definitely be interested in attacking
>anti-religious, or at least anti-Eastern Orthodox Asimov's
>Byzantine Empire for his inappropriate failure to discard his 20th
>Century Rationalistic biases in much the same manner that Orwell
>attacked Arthur Miller's complacent-to-Nazis Tropic of Cancer (yes,
>that "Dirty Book") in his Essay, Inside a Whale.

"Tropic of Cancer" was written by Henry Miller.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 15:34:01 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!eme@RUTGERS.EDU (e.m.eades)
Subject: Hawkmoon?

I recently received a game which is based on Moorcock's (sp?)
Hawkmoon series.  I've never read any of Moorcock's work and thought
it might be helpful to read the books the game is based on.  So...
could someone send me a list of the Hawkmoon books and the prefered
reading order?

Beth Eades
mtune!mtgzz!eme

------------------------------

Date: 25 Aug 87 01:00:51 GMT
From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: History of Science Fiction

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt) writes:
> Oh, question.  Has anyone read "The Fankenstein Papers" by Fred
> Saberhagen?  I have read very little Saberhagen, but I am really
> interested in how well he tells the original story from the
> monster's perspective.  Any info would be appreciated.

Fankenstein?  Surely not.  I don't know about The F*r*ankenstein
Papers, but Saberhagen did a similar treatment of Count Dracula,
telling the events of Bram Stoker's book from the Count's point of
view.  Look for The Dracula Tape.  My pb of it is ISBN
0-441-16601-6.  Rating?  Maybe [***+] or [****-].

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 12:44:00 GMT
From: seasterb@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: contact in "Contact" by Sagan

                      "Contact" by Carl Sagan

I've just finished reading Carl Sagan's book, Contact, and despite
the fact that I can't stand the man himself, the book is quite good.
One thing that struct me as wrong-headed though was the bit about
decyphering the message, and I wonder if anyone has read it and
noticed the same.

*Spoiler Warning!*

The aliens teach us their language by starting off with simple
arithmetic, so they give us phrases of the form (Can't remember the
exact one's used in the book):
   2 A 2 B 4 Z
   2 A 3 B 5 Z
   3 A 4 B 7 Z
From which we deduce that A stands for plus, B stands for equals,
and (by some comparisons with later incorrect arithmetic), Z stands
for true (the incorrect arithmetic ended in Y meaning false). All
well and good, but when I sat and thought about this, I realised
this makes some vast assumptions about the way we do maths. For
instance, in this example, A could equally well mean equals with B
meaning "subtracted from".  This may seem to be splitting hairs, but
consider: We have a convention that our arithmetic is ordered in
this way. Equally valid orderings exist, such as reverse polish
notation, and in computing we often put the function before the
arguments giving something like:
        Z B A 2 2 4
meaning: true (equals (sum (2, 2), 4)

So how come the aliens knew our conventions, and does anyone else
agree with my criticism? The answer may lie in the fact that the
book doesn't actually say that we received messages exactly like
these, they are just given as an example to the president to try and
explain how the code was cracked. However, I contest that the
problem of decoding messages from a totally alien culture is
extremely hard, even if they have tried to make it as easy as
possible for us, and I don't think Sagan covers this well.

One thing I did think sensible was the inclusion of a periodic table
of elements to teach us about various materials used in the machine.
This seems like one thing that cuts across culture barriers
completely, and I remember seeing the same idea mentioned elsewhere
(I have a vague recollection of a story about archeology on Mars of
a deceased civilization).

Now for some general comments about the book: I found a lot of
interesting ideas in the book, but I always had the nagging
suspicion that the overall plot has been well trodden by other
authors. For some reason the general story reminded me of 2001,
especially towards the end. The inclusion of lots of religious
activity reminded me of David Brin's Sundiver, which had a similar
inclusion of fanaticism, with his shirts and skins, (and which I'd
just read beforehand!). Has anyone else noticed this? Has anyone
else read the book? Is anyone going to reply to this message? Is
there anybody out there?

Steve E

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 13:37:40 GMT
From: gtchen@faline.bellcore.com (George T. Chen)
Subject: Re: contact in "Contact" by Sagan

seasterb@Cs.Ucl.ac.uk writes:
>               "Contact" by Carl Sagan
>I've just finished reading Carl Sagan's book, Contact, and despite
>the fact that I cant stand the man himself, the book is quite good.
>One thing that struct me as wrong-headed though was the bit about
>decyphering the message, and I wonder if anyone has read it and
>noticed the same.

Actually, the thing that bothered me most about the book was the
encoding process itself.  I believe there were four distinct
messages in the same signal: prime numbers, bit-mapped picture of
Hitler, the instruction book, and the primer.  I remember that the
primer was encoded using phase modulation.  The prime numbers was
probably done with amplitude modulation.  Does anyone know how the
other two were done?

gtchen@thumper.bellcore.com
gtchen@romeo.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 SEP 87 14:29-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Robert Silverberg, sequels

Rumour has it that Robert Silverberg is working on volume #4 of the
Majipoor "Trilogy". Does anyone know whether or not this is true
and/or whether or not this book has already been published (title??)
By the way, this disease (writing sequels) is really getting out of
hand!  (comments, anyone?) Whatever next? Will H.G. Wells rise from
the grave and write a sequel to "War of the Worlds" ? I wonder.....

Jacqueline Cote'
Astronomical Institute
University of Amsterdam
Roetersstraat 15
1018 WB  Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Bitnet : U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #390
Date: 10 Sep 87 1118-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #390
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Sep 87 1118-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #390
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 10 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 390

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Star Trek (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Aug 87 15:07:04 GMT
From: seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Gene Roddenberry interview (long)

Interview with Gene Roddenberry at "Not The August Party", edited to
keep my fingers from wearing out, 8/1/87

GR: A good day to talk to you...yesterday I saw the rough cut of the
first hour episode and Bob Justman was sitting across from me and he
was looking up grinning and nodding and his face was saying "Jesus,
I think we've done it again, Bird".  It was a good feeling.  I don't
love this crew any more, or the old crew any less, but it was the
same feeling of bright actors and bright directors putting a thing
together with a great deal of joy, with a great deal of challenge
and watching a thing beginning to work.

Q: The Klingon crew member...

GR: is named Worf.

Q: An engineering character?

GR: We need an engineering character, but I don't think it'll ever
develop into another Scotty.  This is a different crew with
different jobs, and I'm not trying to copy. I don't feel the need of
a Vulcan.  I feel the need of aliens but the worst thing I could
have done, I felt, was to copy myself.  It closes in your brain to
start copying yourself.  Whether all the fans approve of it or not
we did a very brave thing by setting off with an entirely new cast
of new individuals with different qualities.  The whole possible
future is open to us that way.

Q:Does Pierce Brosnan have a recurring role as an alien?

GR: It's not a recurring role yet, but apparently he played an
alien, yes.  I am right now expending enormous energy getting us the
word (so I'm not on the set all the time). Because without the word,
direction, acting, whatever doesn't mean anything.

Q: (more on Worf)

GR: He is a Starfleet Academy graduate...raised by a human family
understands the human point of view but yet he is still partly
Klingon too.  He's an interesting character.

Q: There's a rumor going around that DeForest Kelley is going to
appear in ST:TNG as a very old starfleet officer who won't use the
transporter.  Is that true?

GR: Interesting idea isn't it?

Q:I note that that doesn't confirm or deny..

GR:That's correct.

Q:Would you object to a ST:TNG/ST:TOG crossover in the DC comics
(Note, this question was asked by Peter David, the soon to be
regular scripter on the ST comic)

GR:Yes. Because as big a thing as that, I would want to be a part of
it.  I would want it to originate in my brain.  I think if one feeds
on the other, you do them (both) a disservice.  Around the third
year, I'll be willing to talk about those things.

Q:Will we see any of the aliens from the animated or books?

GR:We'll create our own aliens. This ship is going out to another
section of the galaxy, far beyond where the other one has gone.  I'd
hate to think our imagination is so destitute that we have to go
back to have good aliens.  The galaxy's a remarkable place.

Q:Who's doing the music?

GR:I'm not going to be specific about that.  It will be music you
are familiar with.  It may have a little suprise for you too.  But
we have good music people.  This is 20-odd years later and music
does change and grow, so you'll have a little new and you'll have a
little familiar.

Q:What is the present status of the next ST movie?

GR:It's being rewritten. I think they made an unwise move with the
story when they first began to write it and it got to be a little
too much about the deity, and trade on religion, and now they're
rewriting and getting away from that.

Q:Censorship problems?

GR:I am in effect, my own censor.  I recognize that we go into
homes, a broad variety representing many different cultures and
points of view and I'm not going mad, I wish I could very easily
with Ideas.  I'll try to show good taste.  Beyond that, as much
imagination as possible.  The one problem I do have now is that it
has become ungodly expensive to make science fiction.  The cost is
now well over a million (an episode) and a million dollars doesn't
buy you that much good stuff.  Time marches on you kow.

Q:Might we see any of the old crew as writers/directors?

GR:You very easily could.

Q:The first 1 hour episode?

GR:Do you remember the Naked Time?  It allowed us to reveal what's
inside the characters.  We've run into something like that...and it
strips them a little bit naked , it's called the Naked Now.  It is
not a copy, it is a marvelous show.

Q:Are the titles of the episodes going to be supered on the opening
credits?

GR: That's my plan.

Q:What are the plans for releasing these to home videotape?

GR:From your lips into God's ear, but hopefully after seven or eight
years of successful run.

I can't tell you it will be as good, or better or what it will be.
I can only promise you we have jumped into it boldly, wanting to do
a new fresh thing that uses all of our minds and all of our
imagination.  It will be as good as we can make it.  That's all I
can promise.

 ---

Like I said, I have edited this, but all the information (I think)
is there.  Retransmit or republish if you want to (that should save
you a message Lisa) so long as you properly credit the source.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..seismo!sundc!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 8 Aug 87 05:15:21 GMT
From: gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Gideon Sheps)
Subject: Gene Roddenbury interview

>Interview with Gene Roddenberry at "Not The August Party", edited
>
>Q: The Klingon crew member...
>
>GR: is named Worf.
>
>I'm not trying to copy...  but the worst thing I could have
>done, I felt, was to copy myself.  It closes in your brain to start
>copying yourself.  Whether all the fans approve of it or not ...
>
>Q: (more on Worf)
>
>GR: He is a Starfleet Academy graduate...raised by a human family
>understands the human point of view but yet he is still partly
>Klingon too.  He's an interesting character.

I juxtapose these two quotes from the interview and allow the
readers to draw their own conclusions.

If not an carbon copy, there was healthy use of tracing paper in the
design process.

Gideon Sheps
gbs@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
gbs@utorgpu.bitnet/EARN/NetNorth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 87 12:46:12 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Leonard Nimoy at Creation Convention

Last Sunday I heard Leonard Nimoy speak at the Creation Con in
Boston. There are only two things I remember worth repeating.  He
said that he would not mind appearing in a log entry as a cameo role
(i.e., from 78 years ago) on ST:TN(ext)G.  Also, he said that
originally Rosenmann had done a full orchestration of the Alexander
Courage theme for the opening title, and that the end title had been
similarly written.  However, at an early preview, they discovered
that it just didn't fit the movie, so they used the end title in
both places.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 87 12:13 EDT
From: Allan C. Wechsler <ACW@waikato.s4cc.symbolics.com>
Subject: "The Klingon Dictionary" by Marc Okrand

Mr. Okrand, the cover tells us, "designed and developed the Klingon
language and culture for _Star Trek III: The Search for Spock_."

I am not ordinarily a collector of Trekiana.  I /am/ a collector of
foreign language textbooks, and I couldn't resist the thought of
putting this one on my office bookshelf between Japanese and Latin.

I expected an incompetent mishmash.  One of the things
science-fiction and fantasy writers do worst is invent languages.
Most such attempts are simply English with vocabulary substitutions.
If you see in a novel an alien utterance that reads "Plesh na no
bilzok.  Ni ref ma jalk za ki pong snoyd," and you are told that the
translation is "Bring me my briefcase.  I have to go to a big
meeting," you can bet that "plesh" means "bring" and "pong" means
"big".  Mindless.

All this is to say that _The Klingod Dictionary_ is /not/ mindless.
It was clearly written by someone who has studied some linguistics.
I'm looking for his address, and the first thing I'm going to try is
the linguistics abstracts.

The Klingon language as described by Okrand is a perfectly plausible
non-Indo-European language.  It has some flaws, which I will get to
in a second, but on the whole it is an intriguing and amusing
exercise.  I hope Okrand really got the actors in STIII to use his
language -- it would be too bad for such a fine effort to be wasted.

On the other hand, the book is likely to be only a curiosity to most
Trekkies.  It has no narrative content, except for a tiny glimpse of
a Klingon prisoner-of-war providing linguistic information, in
exchange, we presume, for increased privileges.  This is in one
sentence near the end of the introduction.  Unless you are /already/
interested in non-IE languages, this will probably bore you to
tears.  I was fascinated.

There is a short introduction.  The rest of the book is in five
major sections.

1. A 75-page grammatical sketch in seven chapters.
2. The Klingon-to-English lexicon.
3. The English-to-Klingon lexicon.
4. Tables of prefixes and suffixes.
5. A short "phrasebook".

The language structure is clever, and will be novel to most readers.
Linguists will recognize the Navajo-style positional suffix system,
but less ornate than Navajo with only nine positions after the verb
instead of Navajo's thirteen.  The verb prefixes for indicating
subject and object are perhaps the most innovative feature, although
Hungarian, Georgian, and some Australian languages have similar
conjugation patterns.

A very fine feature of this book, for me, is the "illusion of
truth".  This sense of reality is, alas, shaken by the intrusive
"Ugly Klingon jokes" that the author felt compelled by Trek
tradition to insert.  A representative example is:

   p ... is always pronounced with a strong puff or pop ... Speakers
   of English may want to exercise care to avoid discharging saliva
   while articulating this sound.  It should be noted, however, that
   Klingons do not worry about this.

On the other hand, I like the linguistic evidence that the Klingons
have been in space a long time.  There are one-syllable words for
"spaceship", "transporter", "to take evasive action", and so on.

It bothers me, somehow, that Klingons have uvulas.  In fact, it
bothers me that the sound-system of Klingon is so Earthlike.  (Those
who only speak European languages will miss this point.)

The orthography is annoying, cluttered with an idiosyncratic use of
capital letters.  So the Klingon "s" is retroflexed: why must it be
transcribed with a capital S?  There is no other "s" in the language
that it might be confused with.  The same is true of D, H, I, but
not for Q, which needs to be distinguished from lower-case.  I would
have used qh for Q.

The use of capital I leads to another problem, one of font design.
In the phrasebook section, a condensed sans-serif font is used, in
which capital I and lowercase l are utterly indistinguishable.  You
can distinguish them by context, but it's still annoying.

Occasional lapses and witticisms make it clear that the language is
invented.  For example, conjunctions come in two forms, one of which
is the other spelled backward.  This kind of reversal occurs in no
Earth languages and in no other place in Klingon grammar -- it's
just a joke.

The language is distressingly regular, but no more so than /some/
Earth languages.  The grammar is almost too neat: it fits into 75
pages without noticeable loose ends. However, the regularity is not
unremitting: there are two words for "thousand", and the author does
not know how you decide which to use.  A few compound words whose
components are not glossed hint that the author knows more than he
is telling, however.

The author hints of a forthcoming Klingon dictionary.  I look
forward to this, if only to find out how the ternary numerals work
(only decimal is described in this book), and to see some more
extended samples of text.

batlh Daqawlu'taH.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 00:49:33 GMT
From: norman@husc4.harvard.edu (John Norman)
Subject: Startrek Women's writers collective

This will sound suspiciously like another posting I made recently...

About 10 months ago, there was an article on the bottom half of the
front page of the New York Times Book Review section in which a book
was mentioned which was a collection of stories by women which take
as their starting point the world of startrek.

What was the title of the book, and what press put it out?  The
stories were not necessarily about the canonical characters in the
TV series, but took the "world" of startrek, and built stories out
of that.

John Norman
Harvard Arts and Sciences Computer Services
UUCP: harvard!husc4!norman
Internet: norman@hulaw1.HARVARD.EDU
BITNET: NORMAN@HULAW1

------------------------------

Date: 8 SEP 87 14:30-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek : The Next Generation

Dear SF Fans

From one of the remotest corners of planet Earth comes a new
contributor to SF-LOVERS. Not only am I a fan of "general" SF, I'm
also a Star Trek fan. In my capacity of contributor to the
Newsletter of the Dutch fanclub, The Flying Dutch and on behalf of
all the club members (who don't have access to any network at all) I
have the following requests/questions :

1) Star Trek : The Next Generation will be shown on American TV
during the next TV season. I'm afraid in The Netherlands we won't be
so lucky for a very long time to come. I would very much like to
hear from any SF/ST fan fortunate enough to be able to watch the new
series, to give comments on what they've seen (as soon as it's
aired).

2) How do SF/ST fans on the net feel about ST:TNG in general? How do
you feel about the "continuation" of the series, albeit with a
totally new cast and set in a distant future (some 100 years after
the "old" series")? I've already read many comments on the subject
(e.g. in Starlog).  Many of the die-hard ST fans are opposed to
either the idea itself, or to naming the series "Star Trek", or to
both. Apparently even some of the actors were opposed to the idea of
naming the new series "Star Trek". Others however feel we should
give Gene Roddenberry a chance to turn the new show in something
just as special as the "old" Star Trek used to be. The Great Bird of
the Galaxy did it once, but can he do it again?

* Since I'm new to the network, it's possible that a discussion on
Star Trek: The Next Generation is already well on its way. If not, I
suggest we start now. Anyone interested?  As to who I am : I'm a 26
year old Dutch astrophysicist, who's just started work on her Ph.D.
thesis (on pulsars).  Greetings from The Netherlands !

Jacqueline Cote'
Astronomical Institute
University of Amsterdam
Roetersstraat 15
1018 WB Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Bitnet : U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #391
Date: 14 Sep 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #391
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Sep 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #391
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 391

Today's Topics:

              Books - Bear (4 msgs) & Brin (2 msgs) &
                      Crispin & Crowley & LeGuin &
                      Moorcock & Murphy & Piper &
                      Rice & Simak (2 msgs) &
                      Post-Holocaust Stories &
                      Atlases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 87 16:33:10 EDT
From: brothers@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Bear novel

Greg Bear has come out with what is possibly the best
end-of-the-world novel ever done ... "Forge of God".

Unfortunately, there are some inconsistencies to this ingenious
novel of alien invasion which perhaps someone can explain....

                   ****** SPOILER WARNING *******

The destruction of the Earth is accomplished by dropping large
clumps of neutronium and antineutronium to orbit around each other
under the Earth's surface until their orbits decay with a resulting
massive explosion. This is something that cannot possibly be halted
by our abilities, or indeed even by the good-guy aliens.

Then why do they (the planet-eater aliens) waste their time with
fake robots and fake aliens with contradicting messages to screw up
our response? Why do they have sites on Earth at all? Why do they
waste their time with the h-bombs in the undersea trenches?

All the planet-eaters have to do is drop their neutronium and pick
up the pieces, it seems to me...

Naturally, the majority of the novel wouldn't exist if the various
feints, deceptions, etc weren't around to confuse the major
characters....

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 04:29:54 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re: Bear
Subject: novel)

From: brothers@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
>The destruction of the Earth is accomplished by dropping large
>clumps of neutronium and antineutronium to orbit around each other
>under the Earth's surface until their orbits decay with a resulting
>massive explosion.

This is very funny.  For one, the real matter in the earth's
atmosphere, crust, etc. would cause, uh, large explosions when in
contact with the anti-neutronium - the a-n ball would probably never
reach the surface, it certainly would never reach the interior of
the earth (if the earth was even there after the rather large
explosions).  Just the normal neutronium is more than enough, since
the gravity gradient at the surface is large enough to allow it to
pack a whole bunch of degenerate and highly dense matter on top of
it.  This just might cause a few wee earthquakes, depending on the
size of these large clumps; I would guess that basket ball size
would be more than enough for the former to do it all alone and
perhaps car size for the latter ('72 model chevy).  Once the aliens
dropped their little presents, there wouldn't be any time for the
rest of the novel - the whole set would be gone.  I've cross-posted
to sci.physics, since the people there could probably tell us just
how ludricrous this really is.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 17:42:53 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Bear novel

brothers@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu writes:
>Greg Bear has come out with what is possibly the best
>end-of-the-world novel ever done ... "Forge of God".
>
>The destruction of the Earth is accomplished by dropping large
>clumps of neutronium and antineutronium to orbit around each other
>under the Earth's surface until their orbits decay with a resulting
>massive explosion. This is something that cannot possibly be halted
>by our abilities, or indeed even by the good-guy aliens.

What is "anti-neutronium"? Neutronium is made of atoms stripped of
all charged particles (i.e., electrons and protons), right? And
anti-electrons (positrons) are electrons with a positive charge? So
we'd expect anti- neutronium to be composed of neutrons with an
opposite charge - but they haven't got a charge!

Haven't read the novel, though... maybe this is explained in it.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 23:25:36 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Bear novel

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>What is "anti-neutronium"? Neutronium is made of atoms stripped of
>all charged particles (i.e., electrons and protons), right? And
>anti-electrons (positrons) are electrons with a positive charge? So
>we'd expect anti- neutronium to be composed of neutrons with an
>opposite charge - but they haven't got a charge!

A particle does not need a charge to have an antiparticle, a
neutrino has an antiparticle, and it doesn't have much of anything
:-) An antiparticle to a particle has all quantum numbers inverted.
Neutrons have a quantum number called the baryon number, which is +1
for neutrons and -1 for antineutrons.  Also, the Neutron is made up
of down and up quarks (which are charged) and the anti-neutron is
made up of anti-down and anti-up quarks (which have the opposite
charges).  A neutron decays in ~15 minutes (half life) to a proton,
an electron, and an anti-neutrino.  An anti-neutron decays into an
antiproton, an antielectron (positron) and a neutrino.

There are particles which are their own anti-particle, including the
photon and the neutral pion.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 87 13:23:15 CDT
From: marco@ncsc.ARPA (Barbarisi)
Subject: The Uplift War -- Brin
Cc: shelby@ncsc.ARPA

A friend who's reading _Startide Rising_ wants a brief synopsis of
_The Uplift War_.  Could someone out there oblige me with such a
synopsis.  A copy of one of E. Leeper's reviews of this book would
be useful.

Since I can't reach many addresses on the net, thanks in advance.

Marco
marco@ncsc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 87 14:17:47 CDT
From: shelby@ncsc.ARPA (Whatley)
To: marco@ncsc.ARPA
Subject: Re:  The Uplift War -- Brin

Thanks for sending the message to sf-lovers.  It seems like I have
been reading Startide for about two years now and not quite half
finished.  I am really tired of the broken spaceship sitting at the
bottom of the sea.  I quess it's too late to stop reading it now.

shelby

------------------------------

Date: 11 SEP 87 11:48-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Anne C. Crispin

Dan Tilque writes :
Does anyone know who A. C. Crispin is?  Norton's books are good but

I do, as a matter of fact!  A.C. Crispin ("Anne") is probably best
known for her contributions to Star Trek (she wrote "Yesterday's
Son") and the "V" series, of which she wrote the adaptation of the
first V-series (called "V"), as well as several "original" novels,
one or two with co-author Howard Weinstein, also a Star Trek author
("The Covenant of the Crown" and "Deep Domain"). Both Howard and
Anne are devoted "Trekkies".

Cheerio!
Jacqueline Cote'
BITNET : U00254@HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 23:21:01 GMT
From: fritz@hpfclp.fc.hp.com (Gary Fritz)
Subject: Re: BEASTS by John Crowley (was Re: LITTLE, BIG by JOHN
Subject: CROWLEY)

I've also gotten the impression that Crowley concentrates more on
writing style (and, to some extent, character development) than on
plot development.  While this worked for me in _Engine Summer_, I
really felt that _Little, Big_ got a bit tedious.  I kept wishing
for something concrete to happen, but he just kept setting a mood
and not doing much with it.  Nice writing style, but I wish he'd go
somewhere with it!

Gary Fritz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 87 13:00 PDT
From: MORGAN%FM1%intel-sc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: New book by Le Guin

Given the recent discussion of Ursula Le Guin, folks might be
interested in portions of a review which appeared in the 9/10/87
SACRAMENTO BEE, in a column called THE BOOKSHELF written by Paul
Craig:

      Ursala K. Le Guin, one of the more profound science fiction
   writers of the past two decades, charms the reader with some
   glimpses of greatness in BUFFALO GALS AND OTHER ANIMAL PRESENCES
   (Capra; 196 pages.).
      This is a disarmingly informal volume of short fiction and
   poems centers on a novela about a little girl who survives an
   airplane crash in what seems to be the desert country of the
   Southwest.  She encounters the talking animals of Indian legend
   and Le Guin makes some points about the closeness of all living
   creatures...

   ...Le Guin writes in her introduction, "By climbing up into his
   head and shutting out every voice but his own, 'Civilized Man'
   has gone deaf.  He can't hear the wolf calling him brother - not
   Master, but brother.  He can't hear the earth calling him child -
   not Father, but son.  He hears only his own words making up the
   world..."

   ...In the tale of the small girl who falls from the sky...[the]
   message is that nature is a network of interlinking dependencies
   facing the most profoundly dangerous enemy in the history of the
   world - humans....

     ... This is much like an informal visit with one of America's
   most brilliant writers...It's one of the best books I've read
   this year and it's difficult to hold onto the old reviewer's
   dignity and not burst inot unrestrained advertising adjectives of
   praise for BUFFALO GALS.

I have also seen some interesting articles by Le Guin in PARABOLA,
the quarterly journal of "The Society For the Study of Myth and
Tradition".  I believe she is now a member of the editorial staff.

Morgan Mussell

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 19:27:35 GMT
From: mkao@crash.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: Re: Hawkmoon?

eme@mtgzz.UUCP (e.m.eades) writes:
>I recently received a game which is based on Moorcock's (sp?)
>Hawkmoon series.  I've never read any of Moorcock's work and
>thought it might be helpful to read the books the game is based on.
>So... could someone send me a list of the Hawkmoon books and the
>prefered reading order?

As a long-time Moorcock fan, I would definitely recommend the
Hawkmoon series.  Comprised of 4 volumes, _The History of the
Runestaff_ includes:

   1) _The Jewel in the Skull_
   2) _The Mad God's Amulet_
   3) _The Sword of the Dawn_
   4) _The Runestaff_

These books encompass the adventures of that aspect of the Champion
Eternal named Dorian Hawkmoon, Duke von Koln. Enjoy!

Oh, and by all means, please enlighten us about the nature of this
game!

Mike Kao
UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.mil
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 23:17:05 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: The Falling Woman, by Pat Murphy

I thought I'd put in a brash plug for a book that just hit paperback
that I think is really neat. The title is "The Falling Woman" and it
is by Pat Murphy, her second novel. It is a contemporary fantasy
with a strong Mayan flavor and a great change of pace from all of
those same-tasting Generic Celtic Novels. It's just been published
by Tor Books in paperback, and well worth reading. To give folks an
idea of what I thought about it, I nominated it for a Hugo this year
when it was out in paperback.

Read this book!

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 23:22:07 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!okstate!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael
From: Todd)
Subject: Re: contact in "Contact" by Sagan

seasterb@Cs.Ucl.ac.uk writes:
>One thing I did think sensible was the inclusion of a periodic
>table of elements to teach us about various materials used in the
>machine.  This seems like one thing that cuts across culture
>barriers completely, and I remember seeing the same idea mentioned
>elsewhere (I have a vague recollection of a story about archeology
>on Mars of a deceased civilization).

   It was "Omnilingual" by H.Beam Piper.  The story involved an
archeological dig at what turned out to be a Martian university.
The discovery of a Martian rendition of the periodic table hanging
on the wall (just like in every chem. classroom on this planet :-)
was a very important step in the decipherment of the Martian
language.
   For those of you who want to find a copy of this story, it's in
the collection "Federation".

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 17:01:49 GMT
From: cbmvax!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: The Vampire Lestat - sort of

For anybody who may have liked "The Vampire Lestat" by Anne Rice, be
aware that the book "The Feast of All Saints" by the same author is
a real sleeper.  Not a vampire novel, but rather a historical novel
set in pre-civil war New Orleans that studies the humanity vs. race
vs. sex problem from the point of view of the unfortunate free
colored people who aspire to the faults of the white upper classes
while trying to deny that they have anything in common with the
american slaves and free persons, while an increasingly racist
society is trying to make a simple white/black, first/last class
distinction.  As in most good historical fiction, the author puts
you to the task of evaluating events in terms of both both the
period and contemporary moral and social beliefs.

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 16:08:18 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Simak

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>Does Simak have a thing for preserved dragons?  Has he ever written
>a "normal" (read: comprehensible) book?  I have read "Shakespeare's
>Planet," "The Visitors," and "Where the Evil Dwells," and found
>them all to be too high in the number of things left unexplained.

Oh, then you simply *must* read COSMIC ENGINEERS!  Things are
explained to within an inch of their lives, in that grand old space
opera tradition.

Aside from finding Things Unexplained in the above-mentioned books,
how did you like them?  I think SHAKESPEARE'S PLANET is one of his
best works, though I'll always be partial to such romps as THE
GOBLIN RESERVATION and THEY WALKED LIKE MEN (with the shaggy dogs
and the bowling balls!).

Cliff Simak is one of the true originals of SF and sadly underrated.
If I had to compare his work to anyone's, it'd be to Ray Bradbury's.
They both have that Midwestern sense of wonder, though Simak is more
down-to-earth about it.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 20:30:51 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Simak

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>Does Simak have a thing for preserved dragons?  Has he ever written
>a "normal" (read: comprehensible) book?  I have read "Shakespeare's
>Planet," "The Visitors," and "Where the Evil Dwells," and found
>them all to be too high in the number of things left unexplained.

Simak has been getting stranger as he gets older.  I recommend some
of his older stuff: _City_, _Time is the Simplest Thing_, and _Way
Station_.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 87 18:26:13 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Post-Holocaust stories

Who wrote the first one, and did the trend toward a "Mad Max" type
of world start with the movies, or before?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 87 20:11:57 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Atlases

THE ATLAS OF (PERN/MIDDLE-EARTH/THE LAND) were written by Karen Wynn
Fonstad.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #392
Date: 14 Sep 87 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #392
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Sep 87 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #392
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 392

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Heinlein (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 87 13:54 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Heinlein Questions

Being a real Heinlein-maniac, I have long been wanting the answer to
two questions about his books.  (btw, I don't really agree with
either his extreme militaristic (some might even say fascistic)
views or his opinions about sex. I think he means well, and in his
books it's always the good guys that win, and everybody is
terrifically happy making love to every other family member or close
friend in sight; it's just that I don't think it will work in Real
Life, on account of most Real Life Persons not being so noble,
intelligent and completely devoid of jealousy as his characters all
are. Like to hear other ppl's opinions on this.)

Question #1: Can anyone help me to a chronological bibliography of
his work? I *think* I have read everything he ever wrote, but am
especially unsure about his juvenile novels.

Question #2: His best novel, and indeed the best SF-novel I have
ever read, is 'The Number Of The Beast'. Only problem is, no matter
how many times I reread the darn thing, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
ENDING!  I am talking about part 4, L'envoi, specifically about what
happens in the last few pages, What It Means, what happens when the
forest ranger creature suddenly appears, what the purpose of the
convention really was. I just don't get it.  Am I missing some
subtle reference (Lord knows he put in plenty of those!) or am I
trying to find Meaning in something that has none or am I just plain
Stupid?

Hoping I've made myself clear, and looking forward to your replies.

Leo Breebaart
BREEBAAR@HLERUL5
Leiden
The Netherlands

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 22:27:18 GMT
From: tyg@eddie.mit.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

In answer to question 1, while I can't do a complete bibliography of
Heinlein's work, I will say that it is very doubtful that you've
read everything he's written, or even all the sf he's written. A
couple of months ago, while driving down the California coast, I
stopped off for a few hours at the University of California at Santa
Cruz, and looked at their Heinlein collection (note; if you want to
do this, call them first at the special collections dept of the
library). While the collection is not complete, it includes several
drafts for most stories and novels, and at least two stories that to
my knowledge have never been reprinted.  One had to do with an
invisibility invention, and the other was the first Puddin' story
(see Expanded Universe).

In answer to what the last chapter was about, well, most people are
confused by that. I suspect that only Heinlein and his wife fully
understand it.  But two hints; there are an *enormous* number of
injokes and references to both real people and fictional characters
in that chapter (for example, the Dane is meant to be Poul
Anderson). Also, as was revealed by Spider Robinson in an Analog
column, every time the Beast appears and is given a name, the name
is an anagram of either Heinlein or his wife's name (possibly
including military rank), or of one of his pen names. In other
words, the Beast who put all these characters through all the
trouble is/was the book's writer.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 23:12:33 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dan'l Oakes)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

BREEBAAR@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>Being a real Heinlein-maniac, I have long been wanting the answer
>to two questions about his books.

You've come to the right place...

>(btw, I don't really agree with either his extreme militaristic
>(some might even say fascistic) views or his opinions about sex.  I
>think he means well, and in his books it's always the good guys
>that win, and everybody is teriffically happy making love to every
>other family member or close friend in sight; it's just that I
>don't think it will work in Real Life, on account of most Real Life
>Persons not being so noble, intelligent and completely devoid of
>jealousy as his characters all are. Like to hear other ppl's
>opinions on this.)

I don't think that his views are as simple as many people think.
There's hardly a one of 'em that some protagonist or other of
Heinlein's hasn't espoused the opposite of.

I don't, for example, believe for a minute that Heinlein is
pro-incest.  He likes to upset people, to take up contrarian
positions and argue them with all the force and sincerity he can
muster.  (I understand this urge perfectly; I do the same thing.)
To find Heinlein -- and even more, his characters -- assuming
something, or taking up some position, is no proof that he actually
believes it.

I also don't think he's trying to convince anyone.  More consistent
with his methods and received attitudes, I'd say he's trying to
convince people to think for themselves; take up attitudes; examine
them THOROUGHLY, and change what has to be changed; and then live
what you believe.

>Question #1: Can anyone help me to a chronological bibliography of
>his work? I *think* I have read everything he ever wrote, but am
>especially unsure about his juvenile novels.

Simple answer: you probably haven't.  He wrote a number of
difficult-to -find pieces in other fields (politics, teenage
romances, true confessions, etc.) some time ago, under different
names, and it's a reasonable certainty that not all those names are
even known.

Slightly more complex answer: Alexei Panshin wrote a book called
HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION.  This has an excellent bibliography.  The
book is (I believe) in print from Advent:Publishers.

The book was written some time ago.  I'm not sure if I WILL FEAR NO
EVIL had been published at the time, so here's a list of "recent"
Heinlein, where "recent" is defined as "beginning with IWFNE."

I WILL FEAR NO EVIL
TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE
a guest editorial in ANALOG, about 1974
THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST--
FRIDAY
JOB, a comedy of Justice
THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS, a comedy of Manners
TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET

Incidentally, if you liked JOB at all, you might want to know that
it's a tribute to the works of an early-twentieth-century American
fantasist named James Branch Cabell.  Cabell wrote dozens of books,
many of which are subtitled "a comedy of --."  One of his books was
JOSEPH HERGESHEIMER (note the name?); another was JURGEN, subtitled
"a comedy of Justice."  JOB is very much patterned after JURGEN, in
which the hero descends into Hell, ascends into Heaven, and never
quite finds what he's looking for.  When it was first published, it
was condemned in some places as obscene; it was as much a cause
celebre' in its time as ULYSSES and NAKED LUNCH.  Highly
recommended.

>Question #2: His best novel, and indeed the best SF-novel I have
>ever read, is 'The Number Of The Beast'. Only problem is, no matter
>how many times I reread the darn thing, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
>ENDING!  I am talking about part 4, L'envoi, specifically about
>what happens in the last few pages, What It Means, what happens
>when the forest ranger creature suddenly appears, what the purpose
>of the convention really was. I just don't get it.  Am I missing
>some subtle reference (Lord knows he put in plenty of those!) or am
>I trying to find Meaning in something that has none or am I just
>plain Stupid?

It's a damn good question, and I don't think you've made yourself
stupid.  The purpose of the convention?  In tNotB, Heinlein (in the
persona of Hilda) puts forth the first real statement of a
philosophy which seems to have underlay all his previous work to a
greater or lesser extent (see, for example, the short story "Them,"
or the novel I WILL FEAR NO EVIL): he calls it, rather flippantly,
"pantheistic multiple-person solipsism."

PMPS is not self-consistent, but one statement of it might go like
this:

   There is only one real person in the world, and that is me.
   Since I'm alone here, let's me and me talk about this.  All these
   other people (all them zombies:*) *seem* to be real, but since I
   am the only real person, they must be other mes, other "versions"
   of me.

   This includes all gods, and all reality.  It's all a dream I've
   dreamed for myself.  I can never really die (see the ending of
   TEFL), but different versions of me seem to do it all the time.

   Still, the world doesn't seem to conform to my wishes entirely.
   There must be another -- an Other, an anti-me.  Since I am (by
   definition) good, this being must be the defining force of evil.
   Since all that exists is me, it must be an unexister, a void.  It
   is stupid, vicious, and brutish.  It must be destroyed wherever I
   find it.

   Corollary 1: Since all real people are me, any sex I have is
   essentially masturbation, sex with myself.  The best kind is the
   kind that produces more selves, but any kind is acceptabile
   (except sex with the Other -- but I'd never want to do that
   anyway).  There is no essential difference between incest with
   myself and any other form of sex with myself.

   Corollary 2: The Other must be destroyed whereever it is found.
   This justifies the use of violence when necessary.  When is it
   necessary?  When the Other attacks mes.  If it does this on an
   individual basis, the violence I use is self-defence; on a large
   scale, it is war.

   etc., etc., etc.

What Heinlein has done in "L'envoi" to tNotB-- is essentially a
large gathering of more-or-less self-aware "mes."  The appearance of
the "beast" at the convention seems to imply that the Other is
always present, that no matter how many times you kill it, that no
matter how you safeguard against it, it *will* appear -- rather like
the way H. describes critics in the same story.

There is more to it, though.  Heinlein (the Panshins suggest in SF
IN DIMENSION) has also written an anti-science fiction novel in
tNotB.  The argument is complex, but I recommend the book highly;
the final essay ("The Death of Science Fiction") is an excellent
guide both to what Heinlein is doing -- or appears to be doing -- in
his novels of the 80s, and also to the roots of what became
cyberpunk, such writers as Rudy Rucker.

Hope this is of some help...

Dan'l
djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 19:51:42 GMT
From: bartz@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Bartz)
Subject: Re:Re: Heinlein Questions

djo@pbhyc.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) writes:

> PMPS is not self-consistent, but one statement of it might go like
> this:
>   There is only one real person in the world, and that is me.
>   Since I'm alone here, let's me and me talk about this.  All
>   these other people (all them zombies:*) *seem* to be real, but
>   since I am the only real person, they must be other mes, other
>   "versions" of me.

   After giving some thought to this, I came to the conclusion that
he missed the point. The "multi-person" in the name implies that
there are many different "ME's" in the Universe. Each ME exists
because other Me's somewhere believe they exist. This would explain
why the fiction of one Universe is reality in another. The more
people who believe in a reality the stronger the reality. Through
out the travels of the main characters, the places they tended to
visit, were the places the group read about or at least could
believe in.
   As far as the ending of tNotB goes, I don't remember the
specifics, but when a main character was about to make a speech,
telling all assembled about this universe of rangers that exists,
they are corrected. Instead they are told to tell the group there is
no universe of rangers, but only one single individual. In this way,
by getting a large group of people to believe only one ranger exist,
the universe of rangers is effectively removed from existence. This
fact leaving the one ranger present all alone and unaided. By
himself unable to recreate his world or change reality. This may be
where the rangers come from in the first place. From Jake's secret
fear of creatures trying to stop him, being spread first to D.D.,
then Hilda and Zeb. The more who beleived, the more real it became.
Majority ruling of course.
   I may be way off base on this, but that's how I understood the
events in the book.
   On the otherhand all I have to do is convince enough of you out
there that I'm right, and I will be.;-)

ARPA: Bartz@ruthep.rutgers.edu
UUCP: bartz@elbereth.uucp
BITNET: bartz@ruthep.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 16:54:21 GMT
From: umix!itivax!chinet!clif@RUTGERS.EDU (Clif Flynt)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

  My thought on the fourth section (The convention) in Number of the
Beast is that Heinlien was having fun, and reliving a small con held
in Tucson (or maybe Phoenix, I forget) back in '80 or so, and
another con held in Chicago about the same time.  Ann Passavoy
(mentioned as singing Mary O'Meara) was present at the Chicago con,
at least, and perhaps in the Western con.
  I consider that section of the book to be primarily an in joke,
and more suitable for a fanzine than a mass market novel.
  My other thought on the book in general was that Heinlein was
laying to rest myths about his characters.
  Section 2 (Interminable arguments about who would lead) was to lay
to rest the myth that 4 Omnicompetent Heinlein Hero's could rule the
universe.  In truth, any group of more than 1 competent, bright, and
individualistic people will spend all their time arguing about what
to do next.
  Section 4, in my humble opinion was laying to myth the concept
that people who do interesting things are in and of themselves
interesting.  Thus, you get all his best characters together, and
they have nothing more to say to each other than the equivalent of
"How's the Missus...Wanna grab a brew?"

  I'd really argue that NOTB is Heinlein's best book.  I'd give my
money for any of the mid-50's juveniles first.  My joys in Heinleins
works are his characterizations, plotting, and dialog.  In NOTB
there was only one character (though there were numerous people,
there was only the one personality), there was no plot, and you
couldn't tell who was saying what unless you found a ", said
<personname>".

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 22:10:39 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

BREEBAAR@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>Question #2: His best novel, and indeed the best SF-novel I have
>ever read, is 'The Number Of The Beast'.

Are you serious?  Have you really read that few SF-Novels? Wow. :-)

>Only problem is, no matter how many times I reread the darn thing,
> I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ENDING!  I am talking about part 4,
>L'envoi, specifically about what happens in the last few pages,
>What It Means, what happens when the forest ranger creature
>suddenly appears, what the purpose of the convention really was. I
>just don't get it.

That is supposed to be a symposium trying to define Pandimensional
Solopsism AND a big party for all the people Lazarus/Heinlein could
think of as worth associating with in fiction and history (a rather
arbitrary distinction even outside of Heinlein's writings completely
thrown out the window by tNotB).

What *I* don't understand is why wasn't I invited? :-<

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 18:19:12 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

tyg@eddie.MIT.EDU (Tom Galloway) writes:
>as was revealed by Spider Robinson in an Analog column, every time
>the Beast appears and is given a name, the name is an anagram of
>either Heinlein or his wife's name (possibly including milatary
>rank), or of one of his pen names. In other words, the Beast who

   But then who is "Mellrooney"?  Actually, the whole episode is a
picture of the Worldcon taken to the nth degree.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 07:38:44 GMT
From: tyg@eddie.mit.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

Mellrooney is an anagram of Lyle Monroe, which I believe was the
penname used on the first publication of Sixth Column.

tyg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #393
Date: 14 Sep 87 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #393
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Sep 87 0912-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #393
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 393

Today's Topics:

                   Television - Starlost (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Sep 87 20:06:05 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Starlost, help, info wanted

   I have been looking for info on a sf TV show that aired in the
mid-70s or so, and have met with no success.  I now throw the
question out to the net.

   Does anyone remember the show "Starlost" ?  As I mentioned, it
came out in the mid-70s (or thereabouts).  If I remember correctly,
it was only aired in a real graveyard timeslot - 5:00 or so on
Sunday evenings, on channel 4.  I seem to recall that it was created
by a renowned sf author (Ellison ?).

   The show was about the "giant space ship Ark".  Basically, Earth
was in trouble, so a huge ship was built to house as much of the
human race as possible.  This ship was sent out to colonize another
planet.  The ship was comprised of a central hub/ drive unit, which
had spokes radiating from it, ending in dome-shaped pods (if anyone
has seen "Silent Running" with Bruce Dern, the ship looked a bit
like that one). The show took place several hundred years after the
ship set out.  Most of the people in the pods did not know they were
on a spaceship, as each pod was culturally isolated.  The series
began when the "hero" of the series discovers that they are on a
spaceship.  Furthermore, some years in the past, an asteroid had
struck the ship, killed the pilot crew and sent the ship heading for
a star. Our "hero", girlfriend in tow, sets out to try to find
someone who can steer the ship.  The stories revolved around them
visiting different pods looking for such a person ( I think he was
being pursued by someone, too) and encountering the different
societies contained therein.  I remember such things as a pod
suffering from pollution, and an encounter with some humanoid
aliens.  I was pretty young (12 years old or so) so my memory of the
details is not that great.

   So, does this ring any bells with anyone ?  I remember really
enjoying this show, watching it regularly, and being disappointed
when it went off the air.  I'd like to find out of videotapes of it
are available (I've checked at the last 2 Creation Cons, but no
luck), or perhaps books/fanzines.  Any info, including what anyone
might remember of it, would be quite welcome.

   Thanks in advance!

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 20:43:14 GMT
From: ryders@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Steve Ryder)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
> Does anyone remember the show "Starlost" ?

Sure :-) It was agreat show. I'd call it a cult sf series but then
again, most of them are (to me at least).

Keir Dullea (of 2001/2010 fame) starred in it, but the other names
escape me at the moment. The stage names of his companions were
Rachel and Garth, and Keir played Devon(sp?).

At the series onset, Devon leaves Cyprus Corners, his rather
primitive home biosphere, in search of the 'truth' about life the
universe and everything.  Upon his return, after he has discovered
that their home is really a spaceship travelling in deep space, he
convinces Rachel (his love) to leave with him.

This angers everyone in the biosphere basically and especially
Garth. (I believe that Garth had some romantic connection to Rachel
also but it eludes me at present.) Anyway, Garth sets out to hunt
them down and return them to Cyprus Corners.

When Garth finally catches up with our dynamic duo, he is persuaded
to help save the Ark and all its inhabitants.

As far as I know, this was a Canadian series, at least, I know one
of the writers personally, and he is a Canadian. The show
periodically airs from time to time as 'filler'. You might try
writing to CKCO TV, the station which aired the series. As luck
might have it, they are based in this city :-) Their address is
CKCO-TV, 864 King Street West, Kitchener, Ontario. I don't know the
postal code. Their phone number is (519)578-1313.

Steve Ryder
ryders@watdcsu.UUCP
{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,utzoo}!watmath!watdcsu!ryders
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ont., N2L 3G1
(519)885-1211 x2352 x2345

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 05:02:19 GMT
From: dryfoo@BEETHOVEN.MIT.EDU (Gary L. Dryfoos)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

>>       Does anyone remember the show "Starlost" ?
>Yes I remember rushing home from school in Australia to watch this
>show in about 1975.
>
>It starred Keir Dullea (of 2001 fame) in one of the few other
>shows/films I can remember him in.  I seem to recall that it was a
>Canadian production and being really annoyed when it just finished
>with out ever resolving anything - I never knew whether production
>was stopped or if the local TV station didn't think it was rating
>well enough.  It was shot on video, and had appalling colour and
>cheap special effects.  The story was strong enough to cover these
>problems though.

I heartily recommend a very funny semi-sf book called The
Star-Crossed, by Ben Bova (?).  It is a not-very-disguised version
of the making of this show.  Harlan Ellison was the writer, and was
so disgusted with the producers of this abortion that he insisted
that the credits include his officially registered 'nom-de-venom'
CORDWAINER BIRD!  (He does this when he feels that as the writer,
his work is being massacred by the powers that be.)

Ellison has retold the story on occasion -- I'm sure I've read about
it in one of his anthologies.  Among other things, the WHOLE CENTRAL
CONCEPT of his original screenplay was that the inhabitants of the
various cultures _would_ _not_ _know_ that they were on an
out-of-control generation ship.  The discovery of the ship's bridge
was supposed to be the climax of the final episode.  (Imagine that
the first episode of The Prisoner had shown #6 in a 15 minute
fist-fight with #1, followed by a wild Eddie Murphy car chase back
to London, and you'll have a small idea of how badly Starlost was
Star-screwed.)  Oh, by the way, in the middle of the bridge of this
generation ship, the art director had put a big old wooden sailing
ship's wheel!

>I do not remember ever knowing what shape the ship was though, it
>just seemed infinite and they used teleporters to move around in
>it.

It's a good thing the art director didn't like ox-carts!

Ah well, instead of good sf, we have a funny story of an "almost
was."

Gary L. Dryfoos
ARPA/Internet: dryfoo@athena.mit.edu
UUCP/Usenet: ...{mirror|seismo|blblbl}!mit-eddie!mit-athena!dryfoo
Phone: (617) 253-0184 / (617) 825-6115
USPS: E40-318, M.I.T., Cambridge, MA  02139

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 00:24:38 GMT
From: unirot!bicker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

Walter Koenig wrote and starred in two episodes in this series
(Oro).

UUCP: {ihnp4|clyde|moss|ulysses}!hoqam!bicker
AT&T: (201) 949-5850
USMail: 2L-508 Crawfords Corner Road, Holmdel, NJ 07733

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 07:10:37 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L.
From: Carlock)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

jal@oliveb.UUCP (Benjamin G. Golding) writes:
>dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>>Does anyone remember the show "STARLOST" ?
>
>It starred Keir Dullea (of 2001 fame)
>...
>   It was shot on video, and had appalling colour and cheap special
>effects.  The story was strong enough to cover these problems
>though (I wonder about this now, I recall being engrossed in
>"Thunderbirds" at about the same time but I now find that
>ridiculously simplistic, though still enjoyable).

I think I may have seen almost every episode of this show, starting
with show #1 (I consider myself lucky in this respect . . .)
Indeed, the effects were cheap -- and Indeed, the stories were
strong enough to transcend this fact.  (That makes two of us who
believe that, I guess).

Actually, the effects were so video-ish that they took on a sort of
abstract quality of their own, such that I never felt that the
quality of the show was being detracted from.

>I do not remember ever knowing what shape the ship was though, it
>just seemed infinite and they used teleporters to move around in
>it.

Teleporters?  I thought they were just walking around the place.

I remember the shape of the ship being thus: a long, straight,
fairly wide central backbone (squarish, not cylindrical), with domed
pods, all oriented the same way, attached to the sides every so
often.  Yes, the thing was huge.  I seem to remember it being at
least 10 pods long.

Rough picture:

     O O O O O O O O O O O O
     |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
   O-|_____________________|-O
     | | | | | | | | | | | |
     O O O O O O O O O O O O

As far as episodes go, I remember:

   The first episode, where Keir Dullea returns to his own,
   puritanical society's dome, only to be imprisoned for heresy
   (suggesting that they are on a spaceship rather than a world).

   "The Implant People".

   The dome that was so polluted that no one could even find the
   "iris" (door) out of it again for all the soot.

   The dome full of highly trained children who had been alive since
   the ship was launched.

   The one with "Magnus", the dangerously intelligent computer, who
   they killed by pulling out his main memory modules ("Hey, Kier!
   Didn't we see you doing that in '2001'?")

   The one guest-starring Walter (Chekov) Koenig as a humanoid alien
   whose ship collides with the big ship.  This one also had a
   female-voiced robot who "bleeped" out any swear words spoken in
   her presence -- quite a good episode, actually.  (No accent from
   Koenig in this one).  Also a great scene with this old grizzled
   guy being rescued from one of the ship's BOTTOMLESS ventilation
   shafts (this was the guy who swore all the time, and got bleeped
   out by the robot).

   The monks who thought that Kier's girlfriend was the
   reincarnation of their Matron Saint, who had supposedly created
   the "Ark" (THAT's what the ship's name was!  I knew it'd come to
   me . . .)

   The aliens in their ship outside, seen only blurrily on a TV
   monitor until the end of the show, one of whom has a heart
   problem that is diagnosed remotely from someone on the "Ark".
   (Reptilian humanoid aliens.)

   The one where Kier's friend goes to fix the main thrusters in
   this shuttlecraft thing, and gets buffeted around by an ion storm
   or some such.

   Some place ruled by this despot in high laced biker boots, who
   had at his command spotlights that could paralyze people where
   they stood, and these pools of acid into which he threw people
   that made him mad.

   Fragments of another episode, involving a dome containing a
   high-rise building, immobilization/interrogation booths, and a
   fairly modern society.


"STARLOST"'s most often spoken line:

   "Unless its course is altered, this ship will collide with a
   class G solar star!"

   (possibly not an exact quote.)

(It ain't, "I'm a doctor, not a _________!", but it's something.)

I have not forgotten this show during the intervening years, even
though it DID kind of just quit without resolving anything (probably
went out of production early, alas).  I think it was in many ways
quite a good show, and if it were available on videos, I would be
willing to at least rent them.

And yes, Harlan Ellison was involved with the show in some fashion
or other.  I have several of his books in paperback, and inside at
least one of them, where it says, "Other SIGNET books by Harlan
Ellison", there is listed the title, "STARLOST #1: Phoenix without
ashes", which leads me to believe that he at least wrote the
screenplay for the pilot episode.  I wouldn't be surprised if he had
been more deeply involved even than that; the show does seem now to
have had a certain Ellison-esque quality to it.

STARLOST: a memorable, haunting show.  I'm glad there are other
people who remember it.  DOES anyone know any info about videos (or
books!) ?

Enquiring minds wish to know . . .

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.UUCP
University of Nevada - Reno

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 19:25:13 GMT
From: moss!codas!alberta!sask!zaphod!grantg@RUTGERS.EDU (Grant
From: Gilchrist)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

ryders@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Steve Ryder) writes:
>dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>> Does anyone remember the show "Starlost" ?
>Sure :-) It was agreat show. I'd call it a cult sf series but then
>again, most of them are (to me at least).

I have to seriously disagree with you on this one.  I found that
"The Starlost" was one of the worst-executed SF shows I've ever
seen.  It was painfully low-budget: the sets looked like (and
probably were) cardboard, the special effects were antiquated, and I
found the acting to be very two- dimensional, including a guest-spot
by the actor who played Chekov in Star Trek.

>As far as I know, this was a Canadian series, at least, I know one
>of the

It certainly was, I'm ashamed to admit.  As I understand it, it was
American-backed and produced here because of our tax laws.  David
Kosenko was correct about it being backed by an SF author; I believe
it was Ben Bova.  I seem to remember a semi-fictional book of the
same name loosely based on the problems in producing the series.  A
comedy, naturally :-)

In case you're wondering why I know so much about a series I hated,
it's because I really liked the premise of the series and the fact
that it was Canadian-made.  I was very disappointed to see it so
badly done.

Grant Gilchrist
Develcon Electronics Ltd.
856 51 Street East
Saskatoon, SK  S7K 5C7  CANADA
uucp:  ...ihnp4!sask!zaphod!grantg
phone:  (306) 931-1478

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 01:00:37 GMT
From: welty@sunup.steinmetz (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

grantg@zaphod.UUCP (Grant Gilchrist) writes:
>...  David Kosenko was correct about it being backed by an SF
>author; I believe it was Ben Bova.  I seem to remember a
>semi-fictional book of the same name loosely based on the problems
>in producing the series.  A comedy, naturally :-)

The *two* well-known authors involved were Harlan Ellison and Ben
Bova.  The basic premise of a generation ship that has problems is
an old SF premise -- Ellison never claimed it was original.  The
particular variant he came up with had some novel features, though.

Ellison intended it to be a mini-series, which would end with some
sort of satisfying resolution.  The producer sold it as a continuing
series without telling Ellison until it was too late to change the
deal.  Ellison became script editor anyway, and wrote the pilot.
After he saw how the producers did business (a sleazy bunch) he quit
and made them use his usual pseudonym, Cordwainer Bird.

Ellison's good friend Ben Bova was technical advisor to the series.
His novel was named _The_Starlost_, and it was damn funny.

>In case you're wondering why I know so much about a series I hated,
>it's because I really liked the premise of the series and the fact
>that it was Canadian-made.  I was very disappointed to see it so
>badly done.

Put it up to sleazy producers who saw a chance to make a buck,
letting any semblance of quality go down the toilet.  Sleazy
American producers (although I don't doubt that there are sleazy
Canadian producers as well :-<)

Richard Welty
Phone H: 518-237-6307
      W: 518-387-6346
Internet:  welty@ge-crd.ARPA
Usenet:    uunet!steinmetz!crd!welty

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #394
Date: 14 Sep 87 0943-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #394
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Sep 87 0943-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #394
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 394

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Cyberpunk (3 msgs) &
                            Computers in SF (3 msgs) &
                    Magazines - Some Comments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 13:51:54 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Cyberpunk Titles and Authors Request

You can call it cyberpunk, you can call it mirrorshades fiction, you
can call it whatever you like.  Regardless, I love the stuff, and I
want more of it.  I need book and author recommendations in the
genre, or near the genre.  I want to read the books that influenced
the authors writing the stuff.  I want to read whatever I've missed
that could even remotely be considered cyberpunk.

I've read "Neuromancer."  I've read "Count Zero" and "Burning
Chrome."  I've read Sterling's "Schismatrix," and even "Vacuum
Flowers" and "Hardwired" (although there are those who would claim
that the latter two don't qualify as cyberpunk novels).

Now what?

Send me your titles, your authors, your huddled opinions yearning to
breathe free.  I'd particularly like to know *why* you recommend a
book or author.  Is it:

"If you loved Neuromancer, you'd like this ..."

or

"If you like Gibson, you'll love so-and-so ..."

or

"I heard someone once say that Sterling claimed that all of his
ideas were based on this book : "..." " (insert :-) tone here).

or whatever ...

The way I'd rate what I've read so far (so that you have some
concept of how my taste runs):

Neuromancer     A++  (never to be equaled)
Burning Chrome  A-
Count Zero      B
Vacuum Flowers  B+   (Swanwick may claim it's not cyberpunk,
                     I don't care)
The Stars my
  Destination   B+
Schismatrix     B-   (sorry, purists, but it didn't do that much for
                      me)
Hardwired       C    (good story, tried too hard)

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 00:49:19 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu (Uncia Uncia)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk Titles and Authors Request

Try the "sequel" to WJ Williams "Hardwired", "Voice of the
Whirlwind".  I thought it was better than hardwired.

Michael Collier
Univ. of New Mexico
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
ucbvax!unmvax!{ariel,charon,geinah}!collier

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 87 02:08 EDT
From: <WWEAVER%DREW.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Cyberpunk

    While sitting at a terminal this evening and reading SFLovers,
the word "cyberpunk" came up.  It was the second time I'd seen the
word in recent memory (the earlier reference was in
_The_1987_Annual_World's_Best_SF_ [okay, so I'm a bit late with my
Book Club reading]) and started wondering about the word.  Etymology
is fascinating, and this seems the proper place to investigate the
term.
    In the introduction to _Pretty_Boy_Crossover_, by Pat Cadigan,
(a very clever existential short story about being pop and self
aware data) Donald A.  Wollheim writes:
   Every few years there appears a movement to improve or modernize
   or even "futurize" the writing of science fiction.  The classic
   example was the New Wave, which had an effect on the style of SF
   literature and has been comfortably tamed and digested.  Now
   there is something called "cyberpunk," of which we have yet to
   learn a clear definition.  It has something to do with computers
   and their programming and possibly -- considering the derogatory
   term "punk" -- with snubbing accepted traditions.  This short
   story is said to be an example of "cyberpunk."  It is certainly
   different from anything H.G.Wells, Jules Verne, or Hugo Gernsback
   would have dreamed up.
I don't believe simply cyberpunk :== (computers) & (programming
{applications}) & (snubbing accepted traditions).  Under that
definition, back in 1984 a copy of Inside Macintosh was cyberpunk,
since it was certainly about computers and programming, defied
accepted DOS traditions, and was largely fictional.  However, I
would be willing to believe that Alfred Besters _The_Computer_
_Connection_ (um, _The_Molecule_Men_, I think, if you read it
serialized in _Analog_) perhaps _was_ cyberpunk, even if it didn't
deal specifically with computers.  Also, I would consider John
Varley's _Press_Enter_ as not being cyberpunk, even though it did
deal with a wizard versus a daemon (making it computers &
programming) and its most sympathetic characters are Victor Apfel, a
misanthropic Korean war vet, and Lisa Foo, Saigon waif turned
Caltech wizardess -- not exactly accepted, traditional characters.
   I would hazard to toss into the definition something about the
necessity of the cyberpunk piece to investigate how the computer as
communication facilitator/data storage device/algorithm control
mechanism/etc... affects the human condition, specifically how it is
changing the accepted traditions of what we consider the human
condition.  (Thus punk as callow youth turned young tough, maybe
with overtones of the now archaic catamite tossed in.)  So Bester's
piece makes it in because of the unique vision of interconnection he
implies.  Varley's doesn't because while yes, it is placed in an
essential fashion in a computer matrix (and loaded with inside
jokes) it really is an allegory about how man and god interact -
yes, it is an engaging story and the nature of the god is computer
based, but it is an old allegory, vaguely greek in presentation.
   Okay, disclaimer # 1: I'm not real aware of current trends in SF.
My forte is in the collections of the 60's.  So this could be way
off base.  But then, that should spark some good conversation,
right?  The aged and infirm of the pack are the easiest targets of
the wolves.  But I really would like to know of more examples of
what is and isn't cyberpunk, and better approaches to the
definition.

woody weaver
BITNET:    wweaver@drew
USNail:    Box R-12
           Drew University
           Madison, NJ 07940
voice :    (201) 377-3000 x361 (days)
           (201) 966-1780

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1987 20:43 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: SF with computers (long list)

Many thanks to all of you who contributed! Here is a list of
Authors, titles and keywords for about 60 SFish books that have
computers.

Three or four years I could only find a dozen or so. It seems as if
the computer has arrived - it is also ambiguous - villain, tool and
alter ego.  Disclaimer: I don't necessarily like all of these books.

??                Fail Safe                sf thriller
??                Tron                     sf film graphics games
Anthony , Piers   Apprentice Adept series  fantasy?
Asimov, Isaac     Winds of Change          sf
Barth, John       Giles Goatboy            sf? surreal Rabelasian
Baum, Frank L     The OZ Books             fantasy sf juvenile
Bischoff, David   Wargames                 sf juvenile
Brunner,John      Stand on Zanzibar        sf (Shalmanessar)
Brunner, John     The Shockwave Rider      sf(networks and society)
Caidin, Martin    The God Machine          sf
Cameron, Lou      Cybernia                 sf (DP complex out of
                                               control)
Card, Orson Scott ENDER'S GAME
Card, Orson Scott SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD
Chalker, Jack     The Well World series
Clark, Arthur C   2001                     sf film(HAL 9000)
Clark, Arthur C   2010                     sf film(SAL)
Creighton, Michael The Andromeda Strain    sf thriller
Delaney, Joseph H? Valentina               sf(from Doomfarer on
                                              Calstate bbs)
Steigler,Marc?    Valentina                sf
Dick, Philip K    We can Build You         sf
Ellis,A.C.        WorldMaker               sf
Ellison, Harlan   I Have no Mouth, and I Must Scream
                                           sf horror short story
Gawron, Jean Mark Algorithm                sf(weird)
Gerrold,  David   When Harley Was One      sf
Gibson, William   Count Zero               sf
Gibson, William   Neuromancer              sf
Heinlein, Robert  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress    sf(Mike)
Heinlein, Robert  Number of the Beast      sf(Gay,Tic-toc, Dora...)
Heinlein, Robert  The Cat Who Walks Through Walls    sf
Heinlein, Robert  TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE     sf(Dora, Minerva/athena)
Herbert, Frank    Destination Void         sf(SHIP)
Hogan, James P.  <Anything>                sf author
Hogan, James P.  The Two Faces of Janus    sf
Hogan, James P.  The Two Faces of Tomorrow sf
Hoyle, Fred      The Black Cloud           sf
Hoyle, Fred      A for Andromeda           sf also TV series(BBC)
Huber, Frederik Vincent  Apple Crunch      sf
Jackson, Bruce   The Programmer  ??
"Johannesson, Olof", Trans. Naomi Walford
                 The Tale of the Big Computer
Jones, D.F.      Colossus and the Crab     sf
Jones, D.F.      Colossus, The Forbin Project   sf
Jones, D.F.      The Fall of Colossus      sf
Milan, Victor    The Cybernetic Samurai    sf
Niven, Larry     The Integral Trees        sf
Ognibene, Peter J. The Big Byte            sf
Pohl, Fred       The HeeChee Series
Robinett, Stephen The Man Responsible      sf(remaindered, out
                                           of print?)
Rucker, Rudy     Software                  sf
Ryan, Thomas J.  The Adolesence of P-1     thriller(IBM 360
                                           teleprocessing)
Saberhagen, Fred Octagon                   sf
Schenck, Hilbert A Rose for Armageddon     sf
Smith, E.E.      Skylark of Space series (Last one mainly)    sf
Varley, John     Press Enter               sf(short story)
Varley, John     MILLENIUM
Vinge, Vernor    True Names                sf(Networks, catches
                                           feeling of being on a bbs)
Williams, Walter Jon  HardWired            sf
Zelazny Roger &
Saberhagen, Fred COILS                     sf

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 15:12:02 GMT
From: dyon@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Dyon Anniballi)
Subject: Re: SF with computers (long list)

How about the Cyberiad, by Stanislaw Lem?  Weren't the two
protagonists in that(Trurl and Kaplacious? it's been a while) both
computers?

Dyon Anniballi
dyon@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu
dyon%batcomputer@crnlcs.bitnet
rochester!cornell!batcomputer!dyon

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 01:05:49 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SF with computers (long list)

You missed a lot. For starters try two more by Vernor Vinge:
The Peace War
Marooned in Real Time

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 87 10:55:01 -0400
From: Mike Thome <mthome@vax.bbn.com>
Subject: Weird stories (the magazine)

   Ok, enough is enough - where can I get a hold of copies of mags
such as Weird?!?  None of the libraries I've checked have 'em, let
alone the used bookstores and such...  As an interested reader
(Haven't read enough to be able to call myself a fan) of much of the
stuff originally published in such magazines, I've had to make do
with the anthologies and collections which also seem to be almost as
hard to come by as the "forbidden" books so many of these stories
tell about (:-)... Help?

mike
mthome@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 87 18:21:53 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Weird stories (the magazine)

From: Mike Thome <mthome@vax.bbn.com>
>       Ok, enough is enough - where can I get a hold of copies of
> mags such as Weird?!?  None of the libraries I've checked have
> 'em, let alone the used bookstores and such...  As an interested
> reader (Haven't read enough to be able to call myself a fan) of
> much of the stuff originally published in such magazines, I've had
> to make do with the anthologies and collections which also seem to
> be almost as hard to come by as the "forbidden" books so many of
> these stories tell about (:-)... Help?

The only library I recall offhand as having WEIRD TALES is the John
Hay Library at Brown Univ., Providence, RI.  A couple of other
sources are mentioned in S. T. Joshi's bibliography of Lovecraft,
but I don't remember where they are (one's in CA, one's in Texas,
...).

I have no idea where one might *buy* back issues of WT, nor even
what they're worth.  (Jerry?)

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 13:31:49 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Science Fiction EYE

While browsing through the Science Fantasy Bookstore in Cambridge
recently, I happened across a flyer for a new magazine, called
"Science Fiction EYE."  It looked like an interesting magazine, and
the price was affordable and an amount I was willing to gamble.
Well, the first issue arrived a few weeks ago, and the votes are in:

I wholeheartedly recommend "Science Fiction EYE" to anyone who is
interested in science fiction, speculative fiction, fantasy, or any
of the subgenres.

Subscribe to this magazine!  It's wonderful!  I feel like I've found
the "Neuromancer" of magazines ... forgive the superlatives, but the
first issue was truly fabulous.  The first issue emphasizes
cyberpunk (a term which the authors writing the stuff apparently
dislike; they'd rather call it mirrorshades fiction or neuromantic
fiction), and it has interviews with William Gibson and Bruce
Sterling, transcripts from panels on cyberpunk, articles by Bruce
Sterling, and just a whole lot of interesting information.

If you hurry and subscribe, you'll should be able to get their
premiere issue -- and it's worth it, believe me!

I'll reproduce the flyer here for you (without permission,
incidentally, but I doubt that the editors of SFEye would object to
the free publicity), and let the flyer do the rest of the
expounding.  Before I do, though, I should disclaim: I am not
associated with the Science Fiction Eye Magazine or its editors in
any way, apart from being a very pleased subscriber.

The flyer said:

"Science Fiction EYE is a magazine of criticism and opinion, insight
and personality.  It's the place to find *intelligent* writing about
*science fiction, fantasy* and whatever else intrigues the creative
minds of writers, artists, and readers.

"Published three times a year -- January, May, and September --
Science Fiction EYE features quality criticism, essays, and in-depth
interviews that will put you *inside* the heads of your *favorite*
writers as they bring complete sentences to life *right before your
eyes.* Each issue is presented with illustrations and graphics to
*rival the prozines,* with the added attraction of *taste and
imagination.*

"Each September's issue of Science Fiction EYE will be our special,
large-format, FICTION ISSUE.  Published to coincide with each year's
worldcon, these issues will feature short fiction and illustrations
(in addition to our regular essays, columns, and reviews) by some of
science fiction's *most interesting* authors and artists that can be
had for what we pay.

"If you are tired of editors who insist upon talking to themselves,
even when they have nothing to say, then SCIENCE FICTION EYE is the
magazine for you.  If you are sick of reading opinions that were
expressed a year ago, for the ninth time, then SCIENCE FICTION EYE
is the magazine for you.  If you've had it with drawings of
barbarian women with breasts that are larger than their heads, then
SCIENCE FICTION EYE is the magazine for you.  (But if you're looking
for garden tips and recipes for fresh Carp salad, we recommend you
try a copy of LADIES HOME JOURNAL.)  If you want a magazine that can
mention its own name four times in the same paragraph, then SCIENCE
FICTION EYE is the magazine for you."

How to subscribe:

Contact:

Science Fiction EYE
Box 3105
Washington, D.C.  20010-0105  USA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #395
Date: 14 Sep 87 0958-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #395
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Sep 87 0958-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #395
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 395

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Cabell & Harry Harrison &
                         Leiber (4 msgs) & Lindholm (2 msgs) &
                         Powers (2 msgs) & Sturgeon &
                         Animals in SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 18:15:03 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Cabell and "Job"

djo@pbhyc.UUCP (The Roach) writes:
>Incidentally, if you liked JOB at all, you might want to know that
>it's a tribute to the works of an early-twentieth-century American
>fantasist named James Branch Cabell.  Cabell wrote dozens of books,
>many of which are subtitled "a comedy of --."  One of his books was
>JOSEPH HERGESHEIMER (note the name?); another was JURGEN, subtitled
>"a comedy of Justice."

Joseph Hergesheimer was one of Cabell's friends, and JURGEN was
dedicated to him. The interview with Koshchei is a near-direct
steal; and a confrontation with an alter-ego of Odin is in THE
SILVER STALLION.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 16:56:27 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!jack!otto!jimi!asci!brian@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian
From: Douglass)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar]) writes:
>  Does anyone remember the show "Starlost" ?  As I mentioned, it
>came out in the mid-70s (or thereabouts).  If I remember correctly,
>it was only aired in a real graveyard timeslot - 5:00 or so on
>Sunday evenings, on channel 4.  I seem to recall that it was
>created by a renowned sf author (Ellison ?).

Sounds a lot like the book *Captive Universe* by Harry Harrison.
His story had a hollowed out asteroid with a society inside.  They
lived like Mayan Indians with two cultures separated by a river.
The "Fertility God" stalked the river at night kill anyone that
tried to make to the other group's camp (took out their heart if it
caught someone).  The two groups are genetically altered to be
docile, but if they mix, you get a full human again.  The hero is
the product of such a liaison, but dad didn't make it back.  The ship
is off course, and the keepers that run the ship are all screwed up.
But the designers, in their wisdom had genetically preprogrammed a
certain set to have to go across the river to make the hero.  It was
their way of insuring the success of the mission no matter what
happened.  The story then follows the hero trying to get things back
on course.

I don't think this was ever made into a series, but it does had all
of the similarities to your Starlost.

Brian Douglass
Office: (702) 733-6761
Applied Systems Consultants, Inc. (ASCI)
P.O. Box 13301
Las Vegas, NV 89103
Home: (702) 871-8182
brian@asci.uucp
UUCP:    {mirror,sdcrdcf}!otto!jimi!asci!brian

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 17:10:15 GMT
From: rochester!kodak!elmgate!ram@RUTGERS.EDU (Randy Martens)
Subject: A Fritz Leiber Question.

Does anybody know what Fritz Leiber has been up to lately ? I have
not heard anything about him or of him in a long time.  I had heard
a rumour that there was going to be two more Fafhrd & the Grey
Mouser books, but except for a couple of short stories seen in
various places, nothing !

Please send answers to the group - Thanks in advance.

Randy Martens

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 04:16:04 GMT
From: ames!kccs!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: a Fritz Leiber Question

ram@elmgate.UUCP (Randy Martens) writes:
>Does anybody know what Fritz Leiber has been up to lately ? I have
>not heard anything about him or of him in a long time.  I had heard
>a rumour that there was going to be two more Fafhrd & the Grey
>Mouser books, but except for a couple of short stories seen in
>various places, nothing !

He is busily writing a new Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser novel.  As
always, he is putting a great deal of care into its writing; despite
this, it seems to be growing to completion at a hardy clip.  My
girlfriend, in her capacity at Locus, is doing a lot of the typing
for it, and she keeps raving to me about ,how great it is....

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 21:24:54 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber Question.

ram@elmgate.UUCP (Randy Martens) writes:
>Does anybody know what Fritz Leiber has been up to lately ? I have
>not heard anything about him or of him in a long time.  I had heard
>a rumour that there was going to be two more Fafhrd & the Grey
>Mouser books, but except for a couple of short stories seen in
>various places, nothing !

He has a F&GM story in the recent "Alternate Worlds" anthology.  It
was edited by Robert Adams.  I haven't read it, but it got a poor
review here not too long ago.

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 19:15:45 GMT
From: rochester!kodak!elmgate!ram@RUTGERS.EDU (Randy Martens)
Subject: Re: a Fritz Leiber Question

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>ram@elmgate.UUCP (Randy Martens) writes:
>>Does anybody know what Fritz Leiber has been up to lately ? I have
>>not heard anything about him or of him in a long time.  I had
>>heard a rumour that there was going to be two more Fafhrd & the
>>Grey Mouser books, but except for a couple of short stories seen
>>in various places, nothing !
>
>He is busily writing a new Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser novel.  As
>always, he is putting a great deal of care into its writing;
>despite this, it seems to be growing to completion at a hardy clip.
>My girlfriend, in her capacity at Locus, is doing a lot of the
>typing for it, and she keeps raving to me about how great it is....

thank you Tim !!

However, this generates some new questions -- do you know if the new
anthologies will include the three or four shorts written since
"swords & ice magic" ??

And now the trivia -

What were the titles of those short stories ?  And where did they
appear?  I remember one of them appearing in the "Dragon" magazine
which explained how Fafhrd lost his hand.  The other I remember a
little bit about, as it involved reappearances by Odin and Loki, who
took our two intrepid heroes and possesed them to take actions on
this plane.  And if my failing memory still serves me there was a
third tale, but I rememeber little of it.

Thank you in advance - please post to the net !

Randy Martens

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 87 10:38 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: Wizard of the Pigeons (was Fantasy Recs)

>> Wizard of the Pigeons       Megan Lindholm
> ZZZZZZZ, snort, ZZZZzzzz .....  This book was different, I will
> give it that.  I'm not sure what it was that turned me off about
> it.  Maybe it was the fact that the hero was a sniviling wimp.

Neither of these two posters said anything about what was in
_Wizard_, so I will post a brief blurb now:

_Wizard of the Pigeons_ is about a man known only as Wizard.  He
lives in present-day Seattle, and one day (before this story begins)
he discovers that magic really exists.  The shape of the magic that
he and the other modern magic-workers use is quite different from
that in traditional fantasy books, mostly (I guess) because they
don't have a bunch of spell books and old white-haired wizards to
whom they can become apprenticed.  They have to sort of feel their
way and help each other out.  Part of Wizard's magic has to do with
pigeons, hence the title of the book.

The plot of the book is about Wizard's encounter with adversity and
how he deals with it.  I'm not going to say anything more about it
because I don't want to spoil it for anyone.  I liked it very much
and I recommend it. I don't agree that Wizard is a wimp.  He's
living the kind of life that requires him to keep a low profile.  I
will say that WotP will not appeal to _a lot_ of people.  There are
a couple of reasons for this, as I see it, neither one of them
having to do with poor writing:

1.  I think that the magic in the book is not really a device for
getting things done, as it is in most fantasy.  The wizards do get
things done with their magic, and there is obviously a lot of
potential there, but it's almost more a tool of self-discovery (at
least for Wizard).  He lets his magic and its rules guide his whole
life.  It's certainly not flashy magic ("Take that, you fiend!")

2.  _Wizard_ is not part of a recognizable subtype (e.g., Tolkien
ripoff). A lot of people can't place it and therefore might abandon
it for a book with a more familiar setting.  Personally, I think
that most fantasy errs in the other direction (i.e., (over)use of
familiar settings/themes/character types).  I would do a lot of
distasteful things before I would read yet another Epic Struggle
Between the Forces of Good and Evil, set in a "world" whose map is a
perfect rectangle, the good guys including elves, the more
photogenic of the humans, and an ancient wizard that everybody
thought had croaked in a volcano six hundred years ago, and the bad
guys including the ugly humans, a whole bunch of slimy little
gnomes/gollums/whatevers of dubious ancestry, and an Archfiend of
some kind who usually has a bunch of Lesser Flying Fiends that he
can dispatch to terrorize the Friendly Little Village in the Woods.

Anyway, it's time for me to shut up.

Mary Malmros

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 03:34:33 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Wizard of the Pigeons (was Fantasy Recs)

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
> . . . I liked it very much and I recommend it. I don't agree that
> Wizard is a wimp.  . . .  I will say that WotP will not appeal to
> _a lot_ of people.  There are a couple of reasons for this, as I
> see it, neither one of them having to do with poor writing:
>
> 1.  I think that the magic in the book is not really a device for
> getting things done, as it is in most fantasy. . .
>
> 2.  _Wizard_ is not part of a recognizable subtype (e.g., Tolkien
> ripoff). A lot of people can't place it and therefore might
> abandon it for a book with a more familiar setting. . .

  Well-taken points. WIZARD OF THE PIGEONS is neither stereotyped
nor a power fantasy. One of its strengths is the beautiful way in
which Wizard's capabilities are integrated into his character.
Wizard, the man, is far from perfect or all-powerful, and his magic
is not a special sword or shield or ring that instantly turns him
into a superhero. Instead, it fits into his life, alongside his fear
and insecurity and a little hope.

  Another aspect of the novel that might make people uncomfortable
is its treatment of the street people who make up most of the cast
of characters.  Lindholm gives you some idea (maybe as much as you
want) of what it might be like to be on the other side of the
handout or the scavenged meal. Wizard is far too busy trying to
survive to glory in the street-smarts of some cyberhero or clever
thief in never-never-land.

  The triumphs and disasters of the book are affected and shaped by
magic, but they are earned and suffered by human beings.

  I'll second Mary's recommendation of WIZARD OF THE PIGEONS. Go on,
give it a try. You might like it. You might even learn something
about yourself.

  What a deal.

Howard Coleman
Astronomy Dept.
U. of Texas, Austin
seismo!ut-sally!utastro!howard

------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 03:52:44 GMT
From: uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon@RUTGERS.EDU (Gordon Davisson)
Subject: Re: Earthsea,Belgariad etc.....

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>   Powers, Tim
>      The Anubis Gates
>      The Drawing of the Dark
>      To Forsake the Sky
>      Dinner at Deviant's Palace

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>Please! "Forsake the Sky" is an early one, not worth mentioning
>with the others.  Incidentaly, while "The Drawing..." and
>"Dinner.." are both very good, "The Anubis Gates" are far above
>them.

I haven't read _The_Drawing_ yet, but I agree about
_The_Anubis_Gates_.  I loved it, and so did the various friends I
forced it on, including one who doesn't normally read fantasy or SF.

Incidentally, does anyone know just how much of _Gates_ is true?
For instance, did Lord Byron really go to Turkey in 1810?  Did he
really fall sick at Patras?  Are the quotes from Byron's letters at
the beginnings of chapters 7 and 8 legit?

Also, has anyone else noticed that Powers has put references to
William Ashbless (a fictional English poet who plays a large part in
_Gates_) into *all* of his other books?

He seems to like playing with the reader's mind...

Gordon Davisson
ARPA:     gordon@june.cs.washington.edu
UUCP:     {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon
Bitnet:   gordon@uwaphast

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 10:54:03 GMT
From: ames!kccs!hoptoad!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Farren)
Subject: Re: Tim Powers (was Earthsea, etc)

gordon@uw-june.UUCP (Gordon Davisson) writes:
>Also, has anyone else noticed that Powers has put references to
>William Ashbless (a fictional English poet who plays a large part
>in _Gates_) into *all* of his other books?

As has James Blaylock.  Blaylock and Powers were students together,
and Ashbless was invented in those days.  Notice that there is a
ship in _Gates_ named the "Blaylock"!

>He seems to like playing with the reader's mind...

Hey, best game there is!

Mike Farren
hoptoad!farren

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 00:49:23 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Godbody, by Theodore Sturgeon

I'm a streaky sort of reader -- an author gets to me with a book and
I buy just about everything of his/hers on the shelf at the local
used bookstore -- but while this gives me a lot of breadth with
those writers I've tripped over, hard as I shop for new and
interesting stories, I *still* keep bumping into gaping holes in my
reading, even among the fixtures of SF of the last 50 years.  It
took a letter from one of our net.collegues to get me reading the
works of 15-year veteran Spider Robinson (in "Melancholly
Elephants", the story High Infidelity is steamy without being sordid
and, well, if you *hate* puns, better not read Robinson).  Worse,
I'm not sure I'd *ever* read anything by Theodore Sturgeon, until
friends sent me home from dinner at their house with a copy of
Godbody.  Heinlein's introduction suggests that you should "read it,
enjoy it, reread it, give it to someone you love", and I agree.

Sturgeon's craftsmanship is evident in Godbody.  His eight
first-person characters are almost archetypes of facets of my
personality, yet are well-enough done to stand on their own.  The
story, by the time I was done with it, made me want it to be Real,
instead of fiction.  The major themes are love, sexuality,
acceptance of self and others, and religion.  What it's *mostly*
about is love.

Some of the sexy scenes are pretty directly written, so if that
offends you, you need to make a choice ahead of time.  In my
opinion, what Sturgeon had to say about love in this, his last (and
posthumous) novel, is important enough that I'd recommend that you
read it anyway.

Great stuff and I recommend it highly.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 08:52:49 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Animals in SF
From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

  Here are some animal stories I haven't seen mentioned yet:

  Eric Frank Russell's "Into Your Tent I'll Creep..." about Man's
best (?) friend.

  Arthur C. Clarke's "Dolphin Island" and "The Deep Range" about
both dolphins and orcas.

  Arthur C. Clarke's "Dog Star", which is one of the very few SF
stories that consistently moves me with each re-reading.

  And how about Pierre Boulle's "Planet of the Apes"...where Man is
the animal?

Dave Opstad
Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #396
Date: 14 Sep 87 1006-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #396
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Sep 87 1006-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #396
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 396

Today's Topics:

                Books - Card (11 msgs) & McCaffrey &
                        A Story request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 87 16:15:47 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: "Seventh Son" by Orson Scott Card
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

Orson Scott Card just came out with a new book called "Seventh Son".
I am an O.S.C. fan, but unfortunately it is a hardback.  (I guess
when authors get popular, the next logical step for publishers is to
pump out as many of their hardbacks as they can).  I looked it over
and it didn't seem to be on par with "Ender's Game" and "Speaker for
the Dead" (at least not lengthwise).  I was wondering if there was
anyone out there that has either read the book, or a review of it,
and could tell me if it is worth the money, or if I should wait for
the paperback.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 00:39:22 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: "Seventh Son" by Orson Scott Card

Markjr_Palandri.SD@Xerox.COM writes:
> Orson Scott Card just came out with a new book called "Seventh
> Son".  I am an O.S.C. fan, but unfortunately it is a hardback.

   It has appeared in "Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine" as three novellas
at various points in the past year.

> can).  I looked it over and it didn't seem to be on par with
> "Ender's Game" and "Speaker for the Dead" (at least not
> lengthwise).  I was wondering if there was anyone out there that
> has either read the book, or a review of it, and could tell me if
> it is worth the money, or if I should wait for the paperback.

   I liked "Seventh Son," at least the first two thirds (I haven't
read the last novella yet). I don't think it is among his best work,
since his best work is incredible, but it is certainly very good. (I
liked it better than _Ender's Game_, but I hated _Ender's Game_.)

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 14:10:21 GMT
From: kimi@ablnc.att.com (Kimiye)
Subject: Re: "Seventh Son" by Orson Scott Card

Markjr_Palandri.SD@Xerox.COM writes:
> can).  I looked it over and it didn't seem to be on par with
> "Ender's Game" and "Speaker for the Dead" (at least not
> lengthwise).  I was wondering if there was anyone out there that
> has either read the book, or a review of it, and could tell me if
> it is worth the money, or if I should wait for the paperback.

I went ahead and bought the book because Card will be at
Necronomicon in Tampa next month and I intend to get it signed.  The
first five chapters of the book are a reprint of his Hugo-nominated
novella (?) "Hatrack River".  I can't recall which periodical
carried this last year (not F&SF).  The book is a fantasy set in an
alternate America where George Washington gave himself up to be
beheaded and the United States never united.  There is magic in this
world, of the dousing and hexing and far-seeing variety.  There is
also a chaotic evil that uses natural disaster and accidents to
destroy those humans with power, especially Alvin, the seventh son
of a seventh son who is born in the first part of the book.

Card is one heck of a writer, and I was both riveted and charmed
through out this short novel.  The folksy, frontier setting for
fantasy was a pleasant change, and it rang true for me since I grew
up in a rural area.  The conflict between good and evil was never
pat--a person could be using hexes for good but be used by evil
without his knowledge, while the local parson who condemns
witchcraft may not be guided entirely by divine intervention.  I
must admire any writer who attempts to portray the difficulty of
life's choices while managing to entertain.  This is one of the
better efforts in fantasy.

It did occur to me that less time had been put into this novel, but
not any less effort, than Card's other novels.  The book really begs
for a sequel, since the battle between Alvin and the forces of
unbeing has barely begun by its ending.  I'll ask Card about its
unannounced appearance at the same time that WYRMS was due (and
difficult to find!).  While I'm at it, anyone else have any
questions?  I won't promise that I can keep my tongue from under my
feet, but I will at least try.

I recommend reading SEVENTH SON, and if the money is too steep,
check it out from your library rather than waiting for the
paperback.

Kimiye
{ihnp4,ulysses,houxm,clyde,codas,cpsc6a,mtune,moss}!ablnc!kimi

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 16:50:22 GMT
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: "Seventh Son" by Orson Scott Card

g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>Markjr_Palandri.SD@Xerox.COM writes:
>> Orson Scott Card just came out with a new book called "Seventh
>> Son".  I am an O.S.C. fan, but unfortunately it is a hardback.
>   It has appeared in "Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine" as three
>novellas at various points in the past year.  I liked "Seventh
>Son," at least the first two thirds (I haven't read the last
>novella yet). I don't think it is among his best work, since his
>best work is incredible, but it is certainly very good. (I liked it
>better than _Ender's Game_, but I hated _Ender's Game_.)

Card has written three novella's in this universe, "Hatrack River",
"Runaway" and "Carthage City", only the first novella appears as the
first five (or is it seven) chapters of "Seventh Son".  "Runaway"
takes place completely after the end of "Seventh Son" and may well
be the first few chapters of the second book in the series.
"Seventh Son" is the first of series called "The Live of Alvin
Maker" "Carthage City" take place in parallel with "Seventh Son" and
does not appear to be intended to be part of any of the novels (it
takes place between "Hatrack River" and the rest of "Seventh Son".

The alternate universe where "Seventh Son" takes place is a very
interesting one.  Appearently Cromwell doesn't die so the take over
of Puritan England by Charles II fails and he is exiled to the new
world.  The New England colonies are Puritan and still belong to
England, The southern colonies are the English Kingdom in exile,
with the capital at Camelot (modern day Charleston [I just noticed
the connection between Charles II and Charleston]).  The middle
colonies are an independent "United States" based on a charter
written by Ben Franklin.  Tom Jefferson and Daniel Boone are leading
a rebellion against the southern crown colonies from the Appalachian
Mt.  area.

I believe that when Card get this series done it will be the best
thing he has written yet (yes better the "Speaker for the Dead").

Self serving plug:

Look into Card's new magazine "SHORT FORM" with is a review magazine
which attempts to review ALL short fiction published in the US each
quarter.  My sister Gloria Wall (Larry's wife [rn, warp, patch
etc.])  writes the column THISBE'S CHINK which reviews short
fantasy.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 87 00:08:58 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Orson Scott Card (was Seventh Son)

Mark Biggar:
> I believe that when Card get this series [Seventh Son] done it
> will be the best thing he has written yet (yes better the "Speaker
> for the Dead").

I always considered _Hart's Hope_ to be the best he has ever
written.  In fact, I think it's one of the best fantasy novels ever
written.  I highly recommend it to everyone.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 87 19:58:05 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (was Seventh Son)

dant@tekla.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque) writes:
> Mark Biggar:
>> I believe that when Card get this series [Seventh Son] done it
>> will be the best thing he has written yet (yes better the
>> "Speaker for the Dead").
>
> I always considered _Hart's Hope_ to be the best he has ever
> written.  In fact, I think it's one of the best fantasy novels
> ever written.  I highly recommend it to everyone.

I won't argue the best he's ever written, since I am usually awed
and amazed by what he does write. I'd just like to recommend a
possibly little-known Card book, namely _A Planet Called Treason_. I
got this ten years ago when I first joined the Science Fiction Book
Club because Card was going to be at a convention I was going to and
I had never read anything he had written. All that I can tell you
without giving anything away is that the planet of the title is
inhabited by the families of traitors to the galactic government who
wear exiled hundreds of years before, and well, some things have
changed. This is a wonderful book.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 06:02:09 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!fmsrl7!oxtrap!rich@RUTGERS.EDU (K. Richard Magill)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card - wyrms

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
>Well, I finished WYRMS, [...]

I, too, just finished reading _Wyrms_.  It's Card and its well
written but the plot is the same as _Speaker_for_the_Dead_, and it
was better.  Don't get me wrong, I think Card is a demigod.  Read
_Speaker_, one of my nominations for 10 best sf ever.  Read
_Seventh_Son_ which was very colorful but a touch slow.  And, if you
like them then read Wyrms.  But don't start with it.

rich

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 11:11:59 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!flkvax!enea!mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent
From: Sandvik++)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (was Seventh Son)

g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>I won't argue the best he's ever written, since I am usually awed
>and amazed by what he does write. I'd just like to recommend a
>possibly little-known Card book, namely _A Planet Called Treason_.
>....before, and well, some things have changed. This is a wonderful
>book.

This is true, I read it last Saturday, and the story is a variated
fantay/ sf theme with some strong religious overtunes. Actually you
have a feeling that Card had recently read a lot of classic
fantasybooks, Dune, Lord of the Rings and Narnia, before he started
to write this book (he actually confesses this in the start of the
book). These traces show up everywhere in the story.

Carr is an amazing storyteller.

Kent Sandvik
17191 Solna, Sweden
+46 8-551639|
ARPA:enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:ksand@mapper.UUCP|

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 22:04:35 GMT
From: pmk@hall.cray.com (Peter Klausler)
Subject: Re: "Seventh Son" by Orson Scott Card

Markjr_Palandri.SD@Xerox.COM writes:
> Orson Scott Card just came out with a new book called "Seventh
> Son".  I am an O.S.C. fan, but unfortunately it is a hardback (I
> guess when authors get popular, the next logical step for
> publishers is to pump out as many of their hardbacks as they can).
> I looked it over and it didn't seem to be on par with "Ender's
> Game" and "Speaker for the Dead" (at least not lengthwise).  I was
> wondering if there was anyone out there that has either read the
> book, or a review of it, and could tell me if it is worth the
> money or if I should wait for the paperback.

I bought it.

Don't pay good money for the hardcover edition.
Don't pay good money for the paperback, either.

O.S.C. may be good, but he's sure inconsistent.

Peter Klausler
Cray Research, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 11:29:06 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: "Wyrms" by Orson Scott Card
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

As predicted, Orson Scott Card took the Hugo and Nebula for "Speaker
for the Dead" (and well deserved I might add).  I am wondering about
the content of another new hardback by O. S. Card (besides "Seventh
Son") called "Wyrms".  Has anyone read this one?  Is it worth the
money or should I wait for the paperback.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 20:22:46 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: "Wyrms" by Orson Scott Card

>As predicted, Orson Scott Card took the Hugo and Nebula for
>"Speaker for the Dead" (and well deserved I might add).  I am
>wondering about the content of another new hardback by O. S. Card
>(besides "Seventh Son") called "Wyrms".  Has anyone read this one?
>Is it worth the money or should I wait for the paperback.

It's okay, but nothing like an award contender. Definitely worth
waiting for the paperback on this one.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 08:55:17 GMT
From: davidg@pnet02.cts.com (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Moreta's Ride Question

pkb@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Benson) writes:
>> Also if I remeber correctly the ballad about Moreta's ride was
>> mentioned in
>Moreta's Ride took place 408 turns before Dragonflight. How I came
>up with this figure is: In Moreta, she states they have 8 turns to
>go before the end of the Pass.  Lessa goes back 400 turns in
>Dragonflight to get the 'Oldtimers' and they tell her that 7 turns
>have passed since the Pass ended.

Not correct.  Moreta says that they have 8 turns to go on HER
current pass.  The oldtimers that Lessa gets are not the oldtimers
of Moreta's time.  It's closer to 1000 turns between Moreta's time
and Lessa's.  I quote from the back of "Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern",
under "Passes and Intervals" (at the end of the book):

Planetfall plus 8 years

First Fall     58  First Pass
              258  Second Pass
              508  Third Pass
              758  Fourth Pass
                   First Long Interval
             1208  Fifth Pass
             1458  Sixth Pass
             1505  Moreta's Ride (The Plague)
             1758  Seventh Pass
             2008  Eighth Pass
                   Second Long Interval
             2405  Lessa's Impression
             2408  Ninth Pass

As you can see, Moreta is long gone by the time Lessa goes back in
time to get the oldtimers who had just completed the Eighth Pass.
And the time between Moreta and Lessa is between 900 and 1000 turns.

David Guntner
UUCP: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
      philabs!cadovax!gryphon!pnet02!davidg
Internet: davidg@pnet02.CTS.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 87 11:40 CDT
From: <BABOWICZ%TAMAGEN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (RICH)
Subject: Story request

I have a tough one (at least it is for me). Many years ago (15-20
years ago), I read a story about a disappearance of boy scouts (or
their equivalent) while on a trip to Mars (I think). The authorities
covered up the disappearance. The government continued to send
letters/postcards/souvenirs/etc. to friends and family of the boys.
One family member (a sister) knew something was wrong, because she
and her brother included secret messages (code words) in their
letters. When these stopped, she started trying to find out what was
going on and everyone she talked to told her "everything is fine".

Another clue I have for you is that the government police (possibly
secret police) had hand weapons that disrupted matter by spinning
off the electrons from the atoms. The hero (some loner type) was
given one of these weapons and a black tunic (shirt, cloak,
what-ever, etc) that identified him as a government special agent
(it also had a transmitter in it, so that the powers that be could
find him when they wanted him).

Last feeble scrap of memory, a substance called Parabolite was
involved with the story. Parabolite supposedly had a perfect
parabolic electron structure that caused it to be impenetrable. The
female protagonist tried to write a messages on some Parabolite with
waxy lipstick and it peeled off as she wrote it.

Juvenile fiction, yes. But help me with my senility.

Rich Babowicz
babowicz@tamagen.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #397
Date: 15 Sep 87 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #397
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Sep 87 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #397
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 397

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Dick (6 msgs) &
                              Vernor Vinge (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 87 14:41:36 EDT
From: Keith Dale <kdale@cc3.bbn.com>
Subject: PKD first edition

Can anyone tell me how rare/good a find the following hardcover book
is:

 _The_Man_in_the_High_Castle_  by Philip K. Dick
 published by G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1962

I consider this book a classic and permanent part of my library
(read that as Not For Sale), and was surprised and pleased to find
the book in such excellant condition at such a ridiculous price (it
cost me all of $3.00!).  I'd just like to know what the book is
worth to knowledgeable collectors. Thanks!

Keith
kdale@cc3.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 87 19:11:37 EDT
From: jw@math.mit.edu
Subject: animals in sf (Bladerunner)

Jerry Keselman writes:
> subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
> future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
> for android-type animals as pets.

Although he is substantially correct, the point is not quite
"entirely" ignored. At one point the protagonist visits a very
attractive domicile where he meets two people and a very beautiful
owl. One of the people comments "of course it is artificial; did you
think I could afford a real one?"! It makes a nice joke; in our
world a fake would be much more expensive than the genuine article
(in fact, not quite possible yet...)  It is a shame that the issue
is not more fully taken up, but that one scene does provide food for
thought for careful viewers.

Of course, it is only barely science fiction. We are facing the
almost certain extinction of many animal species within our
lifetimes. In the tropical rainforests, millions of plant and insect
species, and several *PRIMATE* species are severely threatened.
Can't ANYTHING be done about this?????

Julian West
MIT mathematics

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 87 00:25:45 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Slithey_Tove <ENU2856@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, by Philip K. Dick.

From: seismo!uunet!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU
>jerryk@sfsup.UUCP (J.Keselman) writes:
>>Well, there's always the book that the film "Bladerunner" was
>>based on, Phillip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
>>A subject that was entirely ignored in the movie was that in this
>>future world animals are such a scarcity that people have to yearn
>>for android-type animals as pets.  The protagonist was quite
>>interested in procuring some pets of his own.  I do believe that
>>owning real animals in this world was against the law.
[...]
>
>The point about the animals was that it wasn't just illegal to own
>a REAL animal, but that no REAL animals existed anymore.
>
>Remember (What the heck was the main character's name?) when he
>found, at the end, a frog out in the wilderness and marveled that
>he had found a REAL animal?
>
>He picked it up, and turned it over, and there was a battery plate
>on the bottom. So much for the possibility of finding a real REAL
>animal.

   No, the point was that there *were* real animals, but that they
were extremely rare (and thus expensive) prompting most people to
get electric models of animals.  Owning an animal had become a
social necessity.

   Certain species had died out altogether, amongst which were toads
(which is what Deckard thinks he finds near the end of the book) and
owls.  The animals have died out as a result of World War Terminus,
although what sort of war it actually is is not made at all clear.

   Quoting from the film (as Eugene Miya does) is not terribly
useful, as the film and the book are light years apart.  The
mentioning of artificial animals in the film is merely background to
a very strong story (Deckard killing the androids).  Pieces of
dialogue like the one about the snake and the one about the owl,
primarily serve to emphasise the use of artificial life forms of all
kinds, not just humanoids.  They are merely there to help you build
up a view of the world in which the characters live.  (The
fluorescent tube umbrellas we see do the same sort of thing.)

   In the book, however, the idea about the rarity of the animals,
and the social effects that this has on humanity (including a whole
new religion based on consciousness-sharing and empathy with all
animal life-forms) is *the entire point of the book.* The bit about
Deckard going after the Nexus-6 androids is merely a (poorly
executed, in my opinion) plot, around which this society can be
depicted.

   By the way, when I say that the book and the film are different,
I do not mean this to denigrate the film.  Actually, I believe that
the book in its original form is absolutely unfilmable.  To make a
film of the book, they threw away the background (which can be told,
but not really *shown*) and improved the plot immeasurably.
Obviously the film does have a distinctly different slant on the
idea, and it even makes you feel for the androids as they try to put
off the inevitable.  (Death).  In the book, however, the androids
are depicted as totally callous, and you don't really get inside
them as characters.  (The four-year lifespan is a side detail, and
not something that they seem over-worried by).  Some people will no
doubt contradict this statement, by saying that you are made to feel
for the androids, as Deckard himself is an android, but I personally
have never read that idea into it at all.

ENU2856%UK.AC.Bradford.Central.Cyber1@ucl-cs.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 16:22:03 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, by Philip K. Dick.

ENU2856@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK writes:
>   In the book, however, the idea about the rarity of the animals,
>and the social effects that this has on humanity (including a whole
>new religion based on consciousness-sharing and empathy with all
>animal life-forms) is *the entire point of the book.* The bit about
>Deckard going after the Nexus-6 androids is merely a (poorly
>executed, in my opinion) plot, around which this society can be
>depicted.

  The point of both the book and the movie, primarily, was "what is
the difference between humans and androids"? In this future, we have
mechanical men *who look exactly like human men* except they are
smarter, stronger, whatever, and the only test to distinguish the
two is based on empathy/emotions.  (BTW, the dangerous mechanical
men who look just like us but want to hurt us is a classic example
of Dick paranoia.) Then we have Deckard, a human, sent out to kill
these mechanical men. While doing so he uses brutal, dare I say it?
*inhuman* methods to kill these creatures who many times (e.g. the
opera singer in the book, Rutger Hauer's character at the end of the
movie) engage our emotions and seem like sympathetic...er....humans.
The question being raised in both book and movie is whether Deckard
is human (would *he* fail the empathy test?). He acts no more nor
less human than the androids.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 87 04:36 MST
From: JohnsonL@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

Re: Bladerunner

I have just got around to reading the "Bladerunner" comments. [By
the way, I do agree that the Dick book is very good.] Perhaps this
is a little late, but:

Several references were made in the movie about animals (or rather,
the scarcity of them):

The test given to Leon, the pudgy, balding replicant, by the
bladerunner who preceded the character played by Harrison Ford which
begins the movie focuses on the question about the turtle lying in
the hot sun on its' back [By the way, he's okay as long as nobody
unplugs him :-)];

When Rachel is also given this test (I believe that it's called the
Voight-Comp Test), she is asked about a little boy showing her his
butter- fly collection and then showing her the killing jar. Her
response was to say that she would take him to a psychiatrist
because he was sick;

At the end, Roy (the leader) who displays no concern for
self-mutilation handles the dove that he captures with the utmost
care.

These things all lead one to believe that animals must be extremely
rare or why would replicants be tested on their ability to empathize
or (at least) express the appropiate social behavior.

To tell the truth, I think there was something to the python/female
replicant scene as well. I noticed that Ford studies the python and
opts not to question her about animals. Maybe it is because she
already knew how to form attachments with them (or to fake it).

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 20:05:21 GMT
From: dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Dave Montuori)
Subject: Re: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, by Philip K. Dick.

g-willia@gumby.WISC.EDU (Karen Williams) writes:
>  The point of both the book and the movie, primarily, was "what is
>the difference between humans and androids"? In this future, we
>have mechanical men *who look exactly like human men* except they
>are smarter, stronger, whatever, and the only test to distinguish
>the two is based on empathy/emotions.

A portion of Henlein's _Friday_ deals with this question: Friday
seems to believe that the living artifacts (including cyborgs and, I
would think, androids) would eventually go crazy over the fact that
they weren't human, couldn't BE human, and yet had to do things FOR
humans. This, Friday speculates, would lead artifacts to "toy" with
the lives of humans. In DADoES and _Blade Runner_, this seems to
have already happened - only in a nastier, much more extreme vein
than Friday (a sensitive human for all her toughness) would probably
care to think. (Dick tends towards emotional extremes much more than
Heinlein, so this is not surprising to me.)

>... [Deckard] uses brutal, dare I say it?  *inhuman* methods to
>kill these creatures who many times (e.g. the opera singer in the
>book, Rutger Hauer's character at the end of the movie) engage our
>emotions and seem like sympathetic...er....humans. The question
>being raised in both book and movie is whether Deckard is human
>(would *he* fail the empathy test?). He acts no more nor less human
>than the androids.

The situation is a sad commentary on what the increasing automation
of our surroundings might eventually do to *us* (de-humanization).
Try reading DADoES or seeing BR, and then listening to Police
records (esp. Ghost in the Machine).

I think the film did well in capturing the *spirit* of the book -
Spinrad's commentary in _Asimov's_ on how to/how NOT to make SF
movies based on books was on target here.

Musings: The chess game in the film was an exact repeat of the
"Immortal Game," Anderssen-Kieseritzky London 1851.  Why is it that
"serious" films starring Harrison Ford always seem to end up feeling
like film noir?

Dave Montuori
University of Virginia
dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.EDU
#damont@wmmvs.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 87 23:20:22 GMT
From: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J
From: Brennan)
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime

boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP writes:
>page@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Bob Page) writes:
>>>Anyway, it's by Vernor Vinge
>>I assume it's the sequel to _The Peace War_ ?  It was not
>>mentioned in the original "mini-review" but talk of bobbles and
>>'the peace' sort of pointed that way...
>I think the biggest dependency is that the main character in _MiR_
>is named after a character in _TPW_.  No relation, though.  Well,
>one other 'biggie', about the same importance, but I think I'll let
>you find out for yourself!  (Actually, neither of these is
>explained in the text, so a 'new' reader might miss some stuff.)
>Incidentally, _MiR_ was serialized in _IASFM_ a while ago.

   Besides the fact that it was more likely serialized in Analog,
the above information is correct.  However, there was yet another
story set in this universe, midway between the two books.  It has
the same main character (as far as I can remember) as Marooned in
Realtime.  I can't for the life of me remember when it was
published, except that it was between the serializations of the two
novels.

Jared J. Brennan
Box 193 Gilman Hall
Johns Hopkins Univ.
Baltimore, MD  21218
BITNET: INS_BJJB@JHUVMS, INS_BJJB@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_bjjb%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_bjjb

------------------------------

Date: 4 Aug 87 04:17:31 GMT
From: seismo!sun!hoptoad!laura@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Creighton)
Subject: Re: Review: Tatja Grimm's World

holloway@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) writes:
>This book is best when it's focusing on the supporting characters -
>Tatja is nicely drawn as the omniscient genius, but she's too
>absorbed by monomania to be interesting as a person.  The climax is
>predictable and slow in coming, but getting there is so much fun
>that I recommend this book.

Hmmm.  How interesting how tastes vary.  I just read an article in
rec.arts.books where Evelyn Leeper criticised a book for being too
much like a cookbook -- she didn't like the descriptive passages
about food.  Now, I tend to think that most descriptive passages
drag a lot, but I make a big exception about passages about food.
So Evelyn is complaining that you can cook from the food
descriptions in the book she is reading, while I am busy trying to
make the fried apples that Spencer cooked in *The Godwolf
Manuscript* for breakfast.  Ironic.

I guess *Tatja Grimm's World* must be another one of those things.
Personally, I not only found Tatja Grimm to be interesting as a
person, but I got to actively dislike her before I was a third
through the book.  At that point I tossed the book.  On the
``glad-I-bought-it-hardback, softback, used'' scale, it ranks a
``sorry I bought it used''.  Quite disappointing for me after
reading *Marooned in Realtime*, which I think was very well done.
Interesting that the book is entitled *Tatja Grimm's World*.  I
thought that the world was very interesting.  Now if only someone
had strangled Tatja Grimm at birth, and we could have seen the world
in the company of some other character...

Laura Creighton
ihnp4!hoptoad!laura
utzoo!hoptoad!laura
sun!hoptoad!laura

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 87 20:07:50 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Review: Tatja Grimm's World

TATJA GRIMM'S WORLD [***+]
Vernor Vinge

When the publishers of the seven hundred year old fantasy,
mythology, and contrivance fiction (CF) magazine "Fantasie" take on
a mysterious, seven foot, red haired barbarian to play the part of
the star of their leading pulp serial, "Hrada", they thought they
were getting a bit player who they'd have to baby through her part.
But when she saves the senior editors of the floating publishing
house from death in the flame pits of the Termite People by inspired
acting, they realize they have a genius on their hands.

Not that that's the only clue she gave them.  In the second part of
this three story collection (previously published seperately in
science fiction magazines), Tatja Grimm rises from the newly created
position of science editor to Queen of the most powerful nation in
the world, and in the third, she finds her destiny... or at least
meets it halfway.

The first story introduces us to a world where metal is scarce,
superstition and odd religions abound, and science is just starting
to make a foothold. "Fantasie", the most widely distributed magazine
in the world, is an ambassador to these varied people, and by
publishing cutting edge scientific theories loosely covered by
Contrivance Fiction, helps spur a Scientific Revolution.

The other two stories focus on Tatja, a super genius who is not
above manipulating anyone in her quest to find another as
intelligent as she - in the stars.

This book is best when it's focusing on the supporting characters -
Tatja is nicely drawn as the omniscient genius, but she's too
absorbed by monomania to be interesting as a person.  The climax is
predictable and slow in coming, but getting there is so much fun
that I recommend this book.

Bruce Holloway
{seismo,sun}!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #398
Date: 15 Sep 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #398
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Sep 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #398
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 398

Today's Topics:

         Books - Green Mother & Fantastic Voyage (2 msgs) &
                 Napoleon & Story Requests (2 msgs) &
                 Some Answers (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 16:07:11 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Preview of "Green Mother" (no spoilers, long)

   A friend of mine (thanks, Jo!) works for a distributor who
recieved a copy of the jacket for _Being a Green Mother_ as a promo
from Del Rey.  She gave it to me, and I thought you sf-lovers might
be interested.  Since all this is on the book jacket, I don't think
it's a spoiler.

(Ahem...)

   Orb was the daughter of Niobe, who had relinquished her role as
the Incarnation of Fate to have a daughter.  For this was a world
where magic was as real as science and where the Incarnations of
Death, War, and others were drawn from human beings.

   But even in this world, the gift with which Orb had been born was
rare.  She had magic within her, manifesting whenever she sang or
played her harp.  None could resist the magic of her music.  But
still greater magic lay in the Llano, the mystic music that was said
to control all things.  The quest for the Llano had occupied her
life and taken her all over the world, but she had found only a few
tiny themes of the great music.

   Then she met Natasha.  He was strikingly handsome, with a charm
that she found irresistible, though he was scrupulously formal in
her presence.  And when he sang to her, she realized that he must
have a greater magic than hers; unquestionably, he was an even finer
musician.  He began teaching her the music of the Llano which he had
learned.  He sang her the Song of Morning and the Song of Day.  And
she found herself falling completely in love with him.

   All seemed lovely, until Niobe came, again an Aspect of Fate.
Her mother bore the news that Orb was to be chosen for the role of
the Incarnation of Nature -- the Green Mother.  And Niobe warned Orb
of the prophecy that had been made years before -- that Orb was to
marry Evil.  Could she be sure that Natasha was not really Satan,
the Incarnation of Evil, laying a trap for her?  Satan was a master
of illusion who could pass almost any test, apparently.  And with
the powers of Nature to add to his own, he could overcome the powers
of Good.

   Orb believed she could be sure.  But then she discovered too late
that she was wrong...

For your further enjoyment, here is the traditional bit of story
from the back of the jacket:

                          TO MARRY SATAN!

   Orb brought out her harp and propped the music against a tree
before her.  She began to play it, and the song took her, its magic
manifesting.  There was power...

   Suddenly the scene changed.  Instead of the plain, there was now
a kind of church, except that instead of religious symbols, there
were demonic ones; instead of comforting or esthetic stained-glass
scenes, there were depictions of torture and misery.

   Satan appeared.  He was red, with small flames playing about his
limbs and glowing horns and tail.  He turned to gaze at Orb, and his
eyes were windows to Hell, flickering with passion and violence.
"Now you will marry me!" he proclaimed.

   "Never!" Orb retorted.

   But fear washed through her.  The prophecy had said she was to
marry Evil.  And Satan was Evil Incarnate!


   Even if you don't like the series or the author, take a look at
the book when it comes out.  Michael Whelan did the cover, as for
the first four.  He has gone beyond anything he's done before.  Orb
is even more beautiful than Niobe (_With a Tangled Skein_) or Friday
(_Friday_), which are also by Whelan.  This is not just a great
cover painting, it's a great painting.

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 00:44:18 GMT
From: norman@husc4.harvard.edu (John Norman)
Subject: digital fantastic voyage

I read a book review in BYTE (or perhaps elsewhere) about 8-18
months ago.  The review was of a novel which takes the "fantastic
voyage" idea, but instead of the travellers making their way on a
sub, they are each "bits" in a byte which is inserted into the
microcode of a microprocessor.  Supposedly, the author was quite
adept at following through on the details of the basic metaphor--he
had characters being "exclusively-or'd" off of the bytes, etc.

Can anyone recall the title and author of the book?  I saw it once
in a bookstore in a trade paperback format.  But I just can't
remember the title.

John Norman
Harvard Arts and Sciences Computer Services
UUCP: harvard!husc4!norman
Internet: norman@hulaw1.HARVARD.EDU
BITNET: NORMAN@HULAW1

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 09:55:05 GMT
From: mapper!ksand@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Sandvik++)
Subject: Re: digital fantastic voyage

norman@husc4.UUCP (John Norman) writes:
>I read a book review in BYTE (or perhaps elsewhere) about 8-18
>months ago.  The review was of a novel which takes the "fantastic
>voyage" idea, but instead of the travellers making their way on a
>sub, they are each "bits" in a byte which is inserted into the
>microcode of a microprocessor.

It's called "Necen Voyage" by Davis, a technically maybe skilled
story, but the writing was poor, especially the *love story*, boy
meets girl and the bad guy. Anyhow it's like Asimov's "Fantastic
Journey", a trip inside a vital mainframe run by a crazy cracker.

The explanation how the 'byte-ship' travelled in a parallel data bus
was astounding...

Kent Sandvik

17191 Solna
Sweden
+46 8-551639|
ARPA:enea!mapper!ksand@seismo.arpa
UUCP:ksand@mapper.UUCP|

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 87 13:31:25 PDT
From: Marty Cohen <mcohen@nrtc.arpa>
Subject: The first "I am >>really<< Napoleon"

Subject: MEMORIES by Mike McQuay

>                       MEMORIES by Mike McQuay
>               Bantam Spectra, 1987, ISBN 0-553-25888-5
>                  A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
>      There are some ideas that are around as stereotypes or
> cliches for ages before someone looks at them lopsided and says,
> "What if?"  Certainly the traditional inmate of a mental
> institution who believes he is Napoleon is a familiar character.
> But not until now has anyone taken that idea and said, "What if he
> really WERE Napoleon?"

>      Well, Mike McQuay has done so.

Not so! I recall a story (perhaps by William Tenn, perhaps called
"The Red and the Black") with the premise that the world we live in
is really a battleground between two giant armies, one of red ants
and one of white. We (humanity) are just pawns in their battle.

The central (human) character is a newsman (I think) who had
actually been Napoleon. Because he (as Nappy) had been too
successful, he had been removed from his body in the 1800's and
placed in the body of the newsman. He fully remembers his life as
Napoleon, and his adjustment to our time (about 1960 or so) is part
of the story.

(SPOILER COMING ...)

The climax of the story takes place in an insane asylum that the
newsman has been tricked into investigating by his editor who,
naturally, is a pawn of one of the armies. They want Napoleon out of
the way, so they trick him into getting committed. He thinks that he
will be vouched for by the editor, and then released.

In the asylum, the newsman tries to get the editor to have him
released; the editor refuses. The newsman cannot get himself
released because, since he >>is<< Napoleon, he believes that he is
Napoleon, and is thus, obviously, insane. This "delusion", which is
the nominal reason that the newsman got himself committed, must be
eliminated before the asylum will release him. He is stuck.

At the end, Napoleon is driven truely mad by the revelation from a
psychiatrist at the asylum (also an agent of one of the armies) of
the true nature of the conflict that he has been part of. As I
vaguely recall, the final sentence is Napoleon saying something like
"The red and the black, the red and the black."

... END SPOILER)

As is clear, this is an entirely different use of the concept than
McQuay's. I doubt there is any connection, but it would be
interesting if there was.

Marty Cohen
mcohen@nrtc.northrop.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 14:17:58 GMT
From: bobj@ihlpf.att.com (Evanovich)
Subject: Story HIGHLANDER was based on

I am trying to locate the story or novel that the movie HIGHLANDER
was based on.  The author of the screenplay was Gregory Widen.  I
would appreciate any info sent via email.

Bob Evanovich
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 17:58:31 GMT
From: miket@brspyr1.brs.com (Mike Trout)
Subject: Re: High altitude lauch sites

roger@telesoft.UUCP (Roger Arnold @prodigal) writes:
> I have this fantasy of a Columbian Joe Kennedy, who, having made
> his fortune in the manner that great fortunes often seem to get
> started, wants to become respectable and leave a legacy.  So he
> builds a rocket factory and launch site in the high Andes near the
> equator, founding what will grow to become the world's premier
> space port in the 21st century.  Sounds like grist for a good SF
> story, anyway.

I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
postulates that the big space power of the future will be BRAZIL.
Although this seems ludicrous at first, supposedly it's a very good,
well-theorized novel.  I wish I'd written down the title and author.
Does anybody know of this?  If so, please e-mail details.

Michael Trout
1200 Rt. 7
Latham, N.Y. 12110
(518) 783-1161
miket@brspyr1
UUCP:ihnp4!dartvax!brspyr1!miket
BRS Information Technologies

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 19:18:01 GMT
From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
Subject: Re: High altitude lauch sites

miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>postulates that the big space power of the future will be BRAZIL.
>Although this seems ludicrous at first, supposedly it's a very
>good, well-theorized novel.  I wish I'd written down the title and
>author.  Does anybody know of this?  If so, please e-mail details.

Could this be "The Man Who Sold the Moon", by R.A.Heinlein?  No
flames if I'm wrong; I musta read this one about 8 years ago...

Christopher Maag
cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
{seismo|ucbvax|harvard|rutgers!ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!cmaag

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 20:32:44 GMT
From: levin@cc5.bbn.com.bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Subject: Re: High altitude lauch sites

miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>roger@telesoft.UUCP (Roger Arnold @prodigal) writes:
>> I have this fantasy of a Columbian Joe Kennedy, who, having made
>> his fortune in the manner that great fortunes often seem to get
>> started, ...  builds a rocket factory and launch site in the high
>> Andes near the equator, ...
>
>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>postulates that the big space power of the future will be
>BRAZIL....

Arthur C. Clarke and others frequently postulated equatorial
launching sites.

I just finished Pohl's Heechee tetralogy.  In it the Earth is Brazil
is certainly a center of activity and power.

JBL
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 04:50:38 GMT
From: wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu (Bill Wyatt)
Subject: Brazilian sites (was Re: High altitude lauch sites)

>>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>>postulates that the big space power of the future will be
>>BRAZIL....
[...]
>
> I just finished Pohl's Heechee tetralogy.  In it the Earth is
> Brazil is certainly a center of activity and power.

Somebody jog my memory. I think it was Poul Anderson who (also)
wrote such a future history, several stories collectively known as
`Tales of the Viagens' (Port. for voyagers). BUT I'm sitting here
with my books all around AND I CAN'T FIND THEM!

Bill
Wyatt
UUCP:  {seismo|ihnp4}!harvard!cfa!wyatt
ARPA:  wyatt@cfa.harvard.edu
       wyatt%cfa@harvard.harvard.edu
BITNET:  wyatt@cfa2

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 05:26:34 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: Brazilian sites (was Re: High altitude lauch sites)

wyatt@cfa.harvard.EDU (Bill Wyatt) writes:
>>>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>>>postulates that the big space power of the future will be
>>>BRAZIL....
>>
>> I just finished Pohl's Heechee tetralogy.  In it the Earth is
>> Brazil is certainly a center of activity and power.
>
>Somebody jog my memory. I think it was Poul Anderson who (also)
>wrote such a future history, several stories collectively known as
>`Tales of the Viagens' (Port. for voyagers). BUT I'm sitting here
>with my books all around AND I CAN'T FIND THEM!

I don't which, of several possible novels, the original poster was
thinking of, but the Viagens Interplanetarias novels are by L.
Sprague de Camp.  There are a number of them, mostly written during
the 1945-1955 time period, although he has used the setting since
then.  The novels are light adventure.  In the series it was assumed
that Brazil was the major political and economic power on Earth.  [A
reasonable assumption, given Brazil's natural resources, territory,
and population.  The standard line about Brazil is that it has had a
great future, has a great future, and always will have a great
future.]

De Camp did not believe it was legitimate to use FTL as an SF
device, so all interstellar travel is STL, even though the stories
use an interstellar setting.

Richard Harter
SMDS  Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 10:38:33 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!bucket!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Brazilian sites (was Re: High altitude lauch sites)

Thank you! The keyword was "Viagens". The Stories are by L.Sprague
deCamp.  Just about any deCamp book with a Z in the title is part of
this series as are " Rogue Queen" and the collection someone thought
was by Anderson "The Continent Makers and other tales of the
Viagens".

This series is notable for assuming that you _can't_ get around
relativity and going on from there. In fact at least one story
depends on the "twin paradox" for its final plot twist.

I recommend Rogue Queen for its rather interesting viewpoint. It is
told from the point of view of a "worker" of a humanoid race that
has strong resemblance to the social insects (workers, drones,
queens).  The effects of the visit of the Terrans are rather
interesting...

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 16:43:42 GMT
From: svh@cca.cca.com (Susan Hammond)
Subject: Brazil in space (was: Re: High altitude lauch sites)

miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>postulates that the big space power of the future will be BRAZIL.
>Although this seems ludicrous at first, supposedly it's a very
>good, well-theorized novel.  I wish I'd written down the title and
>author.  Does anybody know of this?  If so, please e-mail details.

One novel that has BRAZIL as _A_ (not _the_) major space power is
"THE DESCENT OF ANANZI" (I know that's probably spelled wrong, no
flames please, I don't have the book handy). I believe it was a
Niven/Barnes collaboration of about 5 years back. Major focus is on
"Falling Angel", a moon-based group, that tries to break of from the
U.S. and become independent. A Brazillian company sabotages one of
their shuttles and cargo and then tries to take it as salvage with
some of their own shuttle fleet, captained by an ex-US astronaut
who went to Brazil to get more flying time than he could in the US
fleet.

I think this book (or part of it) was in ANALOG. I remember liking
it--not GREAT fiction but certainly good.

Susan Hammond
svh@CCA.CCA.COM
{decvax,linus,mirror}!cca!svh

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #399
Date: 15 Sep 87 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #399
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Sep 87 0930-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #399
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 399

Today's Topics:

                 Films - The Quiet Earth (2 msgs) &
                         Japanimation (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 87 00:24:55 -0700
To: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth (!SPOILER!)

Something like this explanation of the Effect may have been proposed
before, but I'm going to give it anyway.  I believe that only a few
persons actually died as a result of the initial manifestation of
the Effect.  Zach and the others were translated into an alternate
universe at the moment of death, while the majority of the
population were either left on Earth Prime or were flung into other
alternate universes. This explains why there were so few dead bodies
lying around.  Only a few persons were caught in an ``in-between''
state, and their dead bodies showed up in Zach's universe.  Probably
each major Effect caused another translation, gradually moving the
remaining persons into universes whose physical laws diverged
farther and farther from those of the universe in which they
started. Zach's demolition job probably froze the translation effect
for everyone, but sent him a quantum jump away from his starting
point.

I enjoyed TQE, but the Effect's affecting only dead persons struck
me as semi-bogus. Like everyone else, I can only guess what the
nature of death Really Is, but I found it too hard to suspend
disbelief around this classic sort of Hard SF macguffin that
operated only on dead persons.  I didn't like having to accept that
the universe (or, in TQE's case, the meta-universe) had some special
handle on dead persons.  I suppose there had to be some sort of
criterion for translating some and not others into the alternate
universe, but I would have swallowed, say, persons microwaving their
dinners at the moment of the Effect being translated better than I
accepted persons who just died being translated.

jns

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 87 00:52:59 -0700
From: Alastair Milne <milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Quiet Earth (!SPOILER!)

>I believe that only a few persons actually died as a result of the
>initial manifestation of the Effect.  Zach and the others were
>translated into an alternate universe at the moment of death, while
>the majority of the population were either left on Earth Prime or
>were flung into other alternate universes. This explains why there
>were so few dead bodies lying around.  Only a few persons were
>caught in an ``in-between'' state, and their dead bodies showed up
>in Zach's universe.

I remain unconvinced of explanations involving alternate universes,
for the simple reason that many of the places Zack and (what *was*
her name?)  explored had very obviously just been abandoned: cars,
vans, and lorries had careened off the road, toasters and water
heaters had been left in full operation, as if their owners had just
stepped away for a moment.  And Zack found a bed whose sheets were
still curved over the now-absent form of their occupant.  This means
that not only were people very recently there, doing all the things
they ordinarily did, but they vanished so quietly that bedsheets
were not disturbed.

So if you say that Zack et al. were translated, you still have to
account for the emptiness of a meta-universe which was obviously
very recently occupied.

Or, if there was any translation involved, it had to be of billions
of people away from our point of view, not of our point of view to
somewhere uninhabited.  I suppose it might be hopeful to think that
there was, rather than that billions of people were exterminated at
a blow, but the chances that they went anywhere even survivable,
much less pleasant, seem so remote that I'm not sure I'd want it to
be so.  And, I'm sorry to say, it's perfectly easy to eliminate
bodies without sending them anywhere.

So for the moment, I don't think translation was involved.

>Probably each major Effect caused another translation, gradually
>moving the remaining persons into universes whose physical laws
>diverged farther and farther from those of the universe in which
>they started.

There were only 2 major Effects, and Zack sabotaged the second; and
we don't know of any remaining people.  As far as we could tell,
there weren't any.  So I don't see the evidence for it.

And against it: Zack's expermiments showed not just a sequences of
steps away from known physical law, but constant changes in the
universe he wsa in.  The most astonishing result I remember him
recording was that the charge of an electron (a physical constant)
was: not merely now different; not merely now variable; but
*oscillating* between unknown, *new* values; and the oscillation was
*increasing* (oscillation always decreases, unless driven by an
outside force).

So: not a progression through sets of physical law, and therefore, I
think, not a progression through meta-universes.

>Zach's demolition job probably froze the translation effect for
>everyone, but sent him a quantum jump away from his starting point.

That certainly seems true: the 2nd Effect had a very different, and
one might say much greater, result on him than the first one had.  I
very much *hope* it stopped the influence of the Effect on other
people (if there were any left), but again, we have no way of
knowing.  I like a film that knows what answers it shouldn't try to
give.

>... I found it too hard to suspend disbelief around this classic
>sort of Hard SF macguffin that operated only on dead persons.

Not on dead persons (or Zack would have had millions of *most*
unpleasant visitors -- remember "The Monkey's Paw"?), but on people
who were just at a very particular point in dying.  The reversal
effect obviously required so fine a combination of conditions that
only 3 people (as far as we could tell) in all New Zealand, perhaps
in all the world, met them.  However, a few others had come close
enough that, though they didn't survive, they didn't vanish either.

Considering the immense complexities both of keeping a metabolism
running, and of stopping one, and the myriad consequences of the
Effect's tampering with subatomic law, I did not find this at all
unacceptable.  If it's not something that would stand up to detailed
investigation, it does at least need detailed investigation to break
it down.

>I didn't like having to accept that the universe (or, in TQE's
>case, the meta-universe) had some special handle on dead persons.

I'm not sure I follow the objection.  Obviously the dead have
characteristics that the living do not, and may therefore be
differently affected by a given thing.  Though, as I said above, I
don't think it applies to Quiet Earth.

>I suppose there had to be some sort of criterion for translating
>some and not others into the alternate universe, but I would have
>swallowed, say, persons microwaving their dinners at the moment of
>the Effect being translated better than I accepted persons who just
>died being translated.

If you want to have a criterion more palatable to you, you have to
provide one that would apply to all but 3 people on the planet.  And
they can't have much in common -- Zack and 2 of his colleagues, or
the woman and her family, or the Maori and his mates would have made
for dull socialising, and the latter two would never even have
worked out what was happening, or done anything about it.

I very much like the Quiet Earth, although it seems rather uneven.
Some parts are distinctly better than others.  Zack's one-man
performance for the first third or half had some very touching and
grabbing moments.  And, though I've said it before at some length, I
found the ending marvellously done.  It seized the rug under your
feet and gave it a solid yank.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 00:12:12 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: 9th Annual Anime Grand Prix RESULTS

Hello:

   This is a summary of the 9th Annual Anime Grand Prix, sponsered
by Animage Magazine.  The results came out in June and I assumed
that people knew about it through getting Animage or what not.
Well, I thought back and decided that this was an erroneous
assumption.  So here are the results, a few months old: (By the way,
there are probably some mistakes in this.  I wasn't sure about some
of the Japanese names that were in kanji.)

VOTES:  6894 males
        4423 females
AVERAGE AGE:    16.60 males
                14.93 females
                15.95 combined

BEST WORK:
                                                        votes
1. Laputa               (Tenkuu no Shiro Laputa)        4065
2. Gundam ZZ            (Kidoo Senshi Gandamu ZZ)       1229
3. Z Gundam             (Kidoo Senshi Z Gandum)         613
4. Arion                (Arion)                         585
5. Lasner               (Ryuusei SPT Leiznaa)           494
6. Mezon Ikkoku         (Mezon Ikkoku)                  359
7. Spaceship Sagittarius (Uchuusen Sajitariusu)         302
8. Urusei-Yatsura, TV   (Urusei Yatsura)                298
9. Holy Warrior Seishi  (Seitooshi Seishi)              258
10. Urusei-Yatsura: Lum The Forever (Lumu za fuoebaa)   249

BEST MALE CHARACTER:

1. Camille Vidan        (Kamiiyu Bidan), Gundam ZZ      1365
2. Pazu                 (Pazuu), Laputa                 1154
3. Judo Ashita          (Judoo Ashita), Gundam ZZ       1033
4. Arion                (Arion), Arion                  703
5. Eiji Asuka           (Eiji Asuka), Lasner            577
6. Shah Azunable        (Shaa Azunaburu), Z Gundam      442
7. Uesugi Tatsuya       (Uesugi Tatsuya), Touch         431
8. Godai Yusaku         (Godai Yuusaku), Mezon Ikkoku   416
9. Moriboshi Ataru      (Moriboshi Ataru), Urusei-Y     325
10. Andromeda Shun      (Andoromeda Shun), Seitoshi S   196

BEST FEMALE CHARACTER:

1. El-peo ple           (Erupii Puru), Gundam ZZ        1928
2. Seta                 (Seeta), Laputa                 1779
3. Onmu Kyoko           (Onmu Kyooko), Mezon Ikkoku     1285
4. Lum                  (Lamu), Urusei-Yatsura          599
5. Polianna             (Polianna),Lovely Girl Polianna 399
6. Fau Murasame         (Fuou Murasame), Z Gundam       391
7. Hamaan Khan          (Hamaan Kaan), Z Gundam, ZZ     301
8. Kogetsu Mai          (Koogetsu Mai), Magical Emi     249
9. Dora                 (Doora), Laputa                 245
10. Lou Luca            (Ruu Ruka), Gundam ZZ           242

BEST SUBTITLE (Individual Episodes):

1. Gundam ZZ, #36       Purutsu Under Gravity
                        (Juuryokuka no Purutsuu)        2729
2. Z Gundam, #50        To Speed Through Space
                        (Uchuu wo Kakeru)               1239
3. Urusei Yatsura, #218 All-Star Party: We're Doomed!
                      (Ooru Sutaa Daienkai: Uchi wa Femetsu Dattcha!)
                                                        634
4. Magical Emi, #38     Goodbye Dreamlike Magician
                        (Sayonara Mushoku Majishian)    357
5. Lasner, #15          As a Falling Star
                        (Ryuusei to Natte)              303
6. Lasner, #24          Eiji Who Became Light
                        (Hikari to Natta Eiji)          213
7. Polianna, #51        Happiness Nearby
                        (Koofuku wa Sugu Soba)          201
8. Gundam ZZ, #28       Lina's Blood (part 2)
                        (Liina no Chi, part 2)          197
9. Gundam ZZ, #34       Camille's Voice
                        (Kamiiyu no Koe)                187
10. Lasner, #26         Time Flowed!
                        (Toki wa Nagareta)              168

BEST ALL-TIME WORK:

1. Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
                (Kaze no Tani no Naushika)              3606
2. Lupin the IIIrd: Caliostro Castle
                (Lupan Sansei: Caliosutoro no Shiro)    1241
3. Urusei-Yatsura: Beautiful Dreamer
                (Urusei Yatsura: Buutifulu Doriimaa)    434
4. Laputa       (Tenkuu no Shiro: Laputa)               348
5. Z Gundam     (Z Gundamu)                             333

BEST ALL-TIME MALE CHARACTER:

1. Lupin the IIIrd      (Lupan Sansei), Lupin the IIIrd ????
2. Shah Azunable        (Shaa Azunaburu), Gundam series 1221
3. Camille Vidan        (Kamiiyu Bidan), Z Gundam, ZZ   601
4. Amro Lei             (Amuro Lei), Gundam series      523

BEST ALL-TIME FEMALE CHARACTER:

1. Nausicaa     (Naushika), Nausicaa                    3959
2. Clarisse de Caliostro
                        (Kurarisu do Caliostro), Lupin  873
3. Lum          (Lamu), Urusei Yatsura                  746
4. Fau Murasame (Fuou Murasame), Z Gundam               548

Best All-Time Works, Runner-ups:

6. Dirty Pair (TV)
7. Gundam ZZ
8. Macross
9. Galaxy Express 999
10. Urusei Yatsura (TV)
11. Conan (TV)  - NOT related to Conan by Ron E. Howard!!!
12. Gundam (TV)
13. Crusher Joe (movie)
14. Goodbye Yamato
15. Goodbye Galaxy Express 999

Commentary:

   Most of the postions on the All-Time list hasn't changed at all
from the last couple of years'.  The two biggest award getters were
Gundam and Laputa, by far.  Laputa with the story, Gundam with the
characterizations.  Urusei Yatsura popularity has been going down
(sorry all you UY fans out there!), and so has Macross.  Miyazaki is
the king of Anime in Japan today, without a doubt.  He has a new
movie planned for next year, called "Tonari no Totoro."  This should
change the list but no major biggies except Gundam will seriously
challenge Miyazaki's works (Conan, Lupin, Nausicaa, Laputa).  But
then, you never know...

   Any corrections, comments are eagerly awaited!

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:  {seismo, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
CSnet: hirai@swatsun.swarthmore.edu
ARPA:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 14:00:48 GMT
From: bwong@ihwpt.att.com (bruce wong)
Subject: Re: 9th Annual Anime Grand Prix RESULTS

How do I get to see some of these works in the U.S. ?

Bruce F. Wong
ATT Bell Laboratories
Naperville-Wheaton Rd
Naperville, Ill 60566   6C-314
312-979-6887
ihnp4!ihwpt!bwong

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 01:13:06 GMT
From: schubert@jumbo.dec.com (Ann Schubert)
Subject: A.N.I.M.E. and C/FO Party Sept. 20th!

   In answer to several requests for information about the
Cartoon/Fantasy Organization in the San Francisco Bay Area, there
are two official chapters which are located in Hayward/Menlo Park
and San Jose.
 There is also one forming chapter in Sebastopol, Ca. For more
information, contact the president of the Cartoon/Fantasy
Organization (C/FO) {who happens to also be the presdent of the
Hayward Chapter}.

C/FO HAYWARD (Hayward, California)
MEETS EVERY 3RD SATURDAY OF THE MONTH AT:
A.N.I.M.E. 739 Harvard Avenue, Menlo Park
California, 94025 415)322-6860
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT C/FO WRITE TO:
   Mark Keller
   25805 Calaroga Avenue
   Hayward, California 94545
   (415)782-1990

JAPANESE ANIMATION SCREENINGS:

       For anyone interested in Japanese Animation screenings (many
themes involving science fiction), there are monthly gatherings at
A.N.I.M.E. in Menlo Park, California (in the San Francisco bay
area). There are no dues or fees required, no business meetings and
no membership enrollment. There is a screening of the newest
animations from Japan from 12 noon until 7pm.  Meetings are held
EVERY 3rd Sunday of the month. A guest is asked to bring food,
friends and ideas to share. Guests are welcome to bring equipment
but should call A.N.I.M.E first to make the final arrangements.
There is also a free newsletter given out and soda pop is sold on
the premises.  Japanese Animation merchandise is sold and traded.
Call A.N.I.M.E for more information! We have old and new animations!

NEXT A.N.I.M.E. MEETING IS SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 20th!!
12 NOON TO 7:00PM
   A.N.I.M.E.
   739 HARVARD AVENUE
   MENLO PARK, CALIFORNIA 94025
   (415)322-6860

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #400
Date: 15 Sep 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #400
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Sep 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #400
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 400

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Eddings (4 msgs) &
                             Baen Books (2 msgs) &
                             Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 21:00:50 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: The Mallorian Spoiled

beach@msudoc.egr.msu.edu (Covert Beach) writes:
>I found the little bit about Polgara still legally being the Duchess
>of Erat and thus immensly rich due to a millenia of accumulated
>tithes to be utterly ridiculous.  Maybe I just know too much about
>Medieval History. ... we're supposed to believe the masters of
>practicality and pragmatism didn't declare the Wacite Arend Titles
>Void?

Remember that Belgarath and Polgara *are* around all this time, the
rulers never forget it (though their subjects may), and they are
feared.  This is quite believable to me.

Of course, there *should* have been heritary Custodians of some
sort, who need dealing with in some way.  I don't know if Eddings
overlooked this point, or simply thought it too much like the
King/Warden situation in Riva.  I would guess the former.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 87 21:03:19 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: The Mallorian Spoiled

mkao@crash.CTS.COM (Mike Kao) writes:
>Come on, folks! Quit complaining about realism in fantasy
>literature. To enjoy this genre of literature (or ANY fiction for
>that matter), one must have a "willing suspension of disbelief," as
>quoted from Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

A "willing suspension of disbelief" should not be confused with
"complete abrogation of the critical facilities".  One is expected
to take *certain things* as given by the author.  Other things are
fair game for criticism.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 07:28:01 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: The Mallorean Spoiled

beach@msudoc.egr.msu.edu (Covert Beach) writes:
>Probably among the easiest things to predict is who will be at the
>final confrontation.
>
>We are told right out that the following will be there (with the
>exception of the one who buys the farm somewhere along the way)
>
>The Child of Light           Belgarion
>The Eternal and Beloved      Belgarath
>(no title given)             Polgara
>The Bearer of the Orb        Errand
>The Queen of the World       Ce'Nedra
>The Man with Two Lives       Durnik
>The Guide                    Kheldar (Silk)
>The Silent Man               Toth
>
>There is also several others who ar not identified by their mundane
>names but only by their prophetic nominatives: The Huntress, the
>Man Who Is No Man, the Empty One, and the Woman Who Watches.
>
>Here are a few predictions
>The Huntress:   This is obviously Margravine Liselle.

   Agreed.  Or at least we are being set up to expect this.  The
only question about this is where and how she will join the
expedition.

>the Man Who Is No Man:  [He guesses Sadi.]

   This is a clever guess.  What else would a Man Who Is No Man be
but a Eunuch?  If it isn't Sadi, then it is a character we haven't
met yet.

>the Woman Who Watches:
>  This is almost certainly Cyradis.  She even says that she will
>meet them later and that her separation from Toth is temporary.
>She is a seer, the Seers from Kell have been Watching without
>participating in events for Millenia.  So I can't think of any more
>fitting candidate for this title.

   Disagree.  I vote for Polhedra.  Cyradis is a neutral, and is
stated to be a neutral decision maker at the end.  Polhedra is
fore-shadowed.  Remember that Polhedra isn't dead, as Errand knows.
She has been watching for thousands of years.

>the Empty One:  [Votes for a character not yet met.]

   Seems likely -- if it is a character that we have met, then my
guess would be the king of Nadraks.  However we have a lot of
unknown geography to cover.

>The Mysteries.
>   The Mrin Codex says that the Quest will be threefold and the way
>will be found in the mysteries.  The first part is clearly to find
>clear copies of the other mysteries.  The First Mystery is the Mrin
>Codex, the second and third will be the Ashabine Prophecies and the
>Gospels of the Seers at Kell.

   Things are not that simple.  We don't have enough information
yet.  A three fold quest fits nicely into one book per fold,
occupying books two, three, and four, with book five being the
resolution.  The means whereby the mysteries will be discovered are
yet to be illuminated.  Since the second book is "The King of
Murdos", I expect Eddings to follow the geographic programme of the
Belgariad.

   I expect that "The place that is no more" is in the High Places
of Korim, as foreshadowed in the quotations from the book of Torak.
There is some major jiggery pokery to be set up, no matter how you
cut it, to get to a place that is no more.

The Nature of Errand

>  This is pure guesswork and I will admit that I could easily be
>proved wrong in the next book or so.  But I get the feeling that
>Errand and Zandramas are two halves of the same entity.

[Material about the unusual nature of Errand omitted.]

   Agreed.  My vote is that Errand/Zandramas is the Mallorean.  More
to the point -- Errand or Zandramas is the new God of the Angaraks
to be.  Recall that after Torak is killed, Errand addresses Ul as
father.

["Father", Errand repeated, perhaps echoing Aldur, who had, in his
use of that name, revealed at last the true identity of the God of
Ulgo.  "Father," the little boy said again.  Then he turned and
pointed at the silent form of Durnik.  "Errand!"  It was in some
strange way more a command than a request.

The face of UL became troubled.  "It is not possible, child" he
replied.

"Father," the little boy insisted, "Errand."

UL looked inquiringly at Garion, his eyes profoundly unsettled.
"The child's request is serious," he said gravely, speaking not to
Garion but to that other awareness, "and it places an obligation
upon me -- but it crosses the uncrossable boundary."]

   That's not too subtle.

>  Zandramas on the other hand seems to have all of the qualities
>that Errand lacks in excess.  We havent seen any evidence that he
>has a civil cell in his body.  Even Asharak, Zedar, Ctuchick, and
>Torak could be civil if the occasion demanded it.

   If Torak were divided into two halves we would have Errand and
Zandramas.  It isn't that simple, of course, because Errand was on
the scene before Torak's death.  But it does seem that Zandramas is
a pure distillate of evil, whereas Torak had a mixed nature.

>  Another point is that no one ever heard of Zandramas until
>recently.  This argues for a recent creation.  Like right around
>the time of the Belgariad perhaps.

   There are a whole group of unanswered questions in this area.  If
not Zandramas, then who placed the interdiction on the critical
passage in the Mrin Codex?  As the man asks, why haven't we heard
about Zandramas before?  In the Belgariad we are lead to believe
that the confrontation with Torak is the final decisive event; why
wasn't it?  (This is not simply a matter of Eddings milking the cow
some more -- there was a lot of fore shadowing in the Belgariad.)
The prophecies continue after the meeting with Torak; however
Belgarath, Polgara, Beldin, et. al., don't know what's going on --
why not?  Where did the Cthrag Sardius come from?

   I have the impression that Zandramas and the Sardion were always
there but that Torak suppressed them simply by being.  My guess is
that the Sardion is the "other half" of the Orb and that the two
halves came into being when Torak cracked the world.  It is also my
guess that the living stone Orb/Sardion is for Errand/Zandramas --
Belgarion and all of the line of Riva are keepers of the stone, but
ultimately it is not for them.  I further conjecture that it is the
role of Geran to unite the two halves.  [This does seem to be
implied; but it puzzles me.]

>What is the Cthrag Sardius?

[Speculation that it was created by the Dark prophecy after the
Belgarion/Torak confrontation omitted.]

   The Vordai quotation may refer to the Sardion.  I read it as
referring to the Dark prophecy itself.

>Who will bite the big one on the way?

[Argument for Belgarath omitted.]

If the Woman Who Watches is Poledra, then, on the gossip argument it
can't be Belgarath.  However "time is running out" is pretty
ominous.

AND NOW FOR THE BIG QUESTION -- WHAT ABOUT THAT BLOOMING HORSE.

   We have been getting hints about that horse ever since Belgarion
brought it back to life.  Why is so bloody important?

Richard Harter
SMDS  Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 03:12:53 GMT
From: g-rh@cca.cca.com (Richard Harter)
Subject: More speculations on the Mallorean

More Speculations on the Mallorean

(1)     Does the Dark Prophecy still exist?

The Belgariad seems to say explicitly that the dark prophecy has
been permanently eliminated.  Consider the following two quotes:

Mrin Codex: "Behold, it shall come to pass that in a certain moment,
that which must be and that which must not be shall meet, and in
that meeting shall be decided all that has gone before and all that
will come after.  Then will the Child of Light and the Child of Dark
face each other in the broken tomb, and the stars will shudder and
grow dim."

and, after Belgarion defeats Torak,

"In that dreadful instant all that existed -- all that had been, all
that was, all that was yet to be was wrenched suddenly into the
course of one Prophecy.  Where there had always been two, there was
now but one."

That would seem to be fairly explicit.  And yet Cyradis says:

"Necessity doth command yet one more meeting between the Child of
Light and the Child of Dark; and mark me well -- this meeting shall
be the last, for it is during this meeting that the final choice
between the Light and the Dark shall be made."

and

"... for the stars and the voices of the earth proclaim that the
power of the Dark doth reside in the Sardion, even as the power of
the Light doth reside in the Orb of Aldur.  Should Zandramas reach
the Dark Stone with the babe, the Dark shall triumph, and its
triumph shall be eternal."

   It may simply be that Eddings wrote himself into a corner and is
writing himself out again, and has no good explanation for this, but
I don't think so.  The Mallorean series is not an after thought --
there is a lot of groundwork laid for it in the Belgariad.  So I
think that he means to resolve this apparent paradox, and that the
resolution is central to the series.  Here is a speculation:

There is now one and only one prophecy.  The universe is back on
track following its original purpose.  So says the Belgariad.  Yet
there is to a final confrontation between Light and Dark.  So says
the Mallorean.  Hence this confrontation must be part of the
original purpose and plan.  As a further speculation, the thing that
went wrong (that brought about the dark prophecy to begin with) is
that the power of darkness came into being prematurely.  I expect to
see this explained.  [I shall be very disappointed if it turns out
that the Sardion is simply the dark prophecy under a new hat.]
Question: In the original plan of things, was Torak supposed to be
the Child of Dark?

(2)     Is Belgarion still the Child of Light?

The hidden passage reads:

   "But Behold, the Stone which lies at the center of the Light
shall burn red, and my voice shall speak unto the Child of Light and
reveal the name of the Child of Dark.  And the Child of Light will
take up the Guardian's sword and go forth to seek out that which is
hidden.  Long will be the quest, and it shall be threefold.  And ye
shall know that the quest hath begun when the Keeper's line is
renewed..."

In the scene where the prophecy is letting Belgarion in on the bad
news, we have:

"Who is the Child of Light?", Garion asked.

"You are -- for the moment at least.  It changes."

   The keeper's line is the line of Riva.  The Guardian's sword is
the sword of the Rivan king, and Belgarion is the Guardian.  But is
he still the Child of Light -- or is it now Errand?  Both were
present when the Orb burned red.  Don't be surprised if, for some
strange reason, Belgarion can't carry the sword, and Errand has to
carry it instead.

Richard Harter
SMDS  Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 05:18:16 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Books in your Future: Baen December catalog

Here's the december catalog for Baen Books.

Lead: The Moon Goddess and the Sun, paperback [got good reviews in
   hardcover, although I haven't read it yet]

The Doomsday Effect, by Thomas Wren. Reissue.

Survival by Gordon Dickson. Reissue.

First Citizen by Thomas T. Thomas. Original. Cover by David Mattingly.
Near Future America as benign Romanesque dictatorship.

To Marry Medusa by Theodore Sturgeon. Reissue. (former dell)

The Broken Lands by Fred Saberhage. Reissue (former Ace)

Masters in Hell edited by Janet Morris.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 05:25:59 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Baen Books: Top book reorders

Just for the heck of it, here's a list of the top reordered titles
from Baen books (which should give you an idea of what is selling).
I get the strangest stuff from publishers sometimes...

At any Price, Drake
Exit Earth, Caidin
Fall of Atlantis, Bradbury
Fire Time, Anderson
Gates of Hell, Morris & cherryh
Heroes in Hell, Morris
High Justice, Pournelle
Hour of the Horde, Dickson
King David's Spaceship, Pournelle
Kings in hell, Morris
Lacey and his Friends, Drake
Menace from Earth, Heinlein
Messiah Stone, Caidin
Methuselah's Children, Heinlein
Mindspan, Dickson
New Destinies Vol. 1, Baen
Pyramids, Saberhagen
Ranks of Bronze, Drake
Rebels in Hell, Morris
Republic & Empire, Pournelle
Retief and the Pangalactic Pageant of Pulchritude, Laumer
Retief in the Ruins, Laumer
Revolt in 2100, Heinlein
Rogue Bolo, Laumer
Roma mater, Anderson
Spinneret, Zahn
Strangers from Earth, Anderson
Tempus, Morris
The Devil's Game, Anderson
The Mercenary, Pournelle
The Nimrod Hunt, Sheffield
The Peace War, Vinge
The Regiment, Dalmas
The Man Who Sold the Moon, Heinlein
Tuf Voyaging, Martin
Warrior Planet, Wismer
Wolfling, Dickson

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 10:12:27 PDT (Saturday)
Subject: Title/Author Info
From: "JAMES_A._DIODATO.WBST207V"@Xerox.COM

Greetings to all SF Lovers,
This is my first letter/question directed to SF-Lovers.  I would
like to find a book I once read eons ago (probably 20yrs?) which was
a paperback.  I don't remember the title, but the characters which
stick out in my mind: 1) a Chinese man by the name of "Wu".  2) a
parrot (a shape changer) by the name of "Lil".  3) a "soldier of
fortune" type by the name of "Horn" (I think).  The plot involved
the hiring of Horn to assassinate the Galactic Emperor, whose Empire
was connected by "Tubes" which provided instantaneous transportation
between the planets of the empire.  The name "Trantor" (I may be
using the wrong name but it sounds like it) sticks in my mind as the
"man made planet (probably a dead moon or large asteroid) surrounded
by metal which was the seat of empire" .  If any of you out there in
SF land remember this story, would you please answer my letter.

Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #401
Date: 15 Sep 87 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #401
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Sep 87 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #401
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 401

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Zelazny (10 msgs) &
                            Bordertown (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 04:29:47 GMT
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.com
Subject: Re: "Amber" graphic novel/portfolio

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>   Does anybody have information on a graphic novel based on Roger
>Zelazny's "Amber" series?  I saw a copy of it last summer in a
>small bookstore in the Boston area, but I don't know which one (I
>was lost at the time).
>   All I can remember clearly is an illustration of the "trumps"
>with the various characters on them.  This may have been a
>portfolio rather than a graphic novel.

I believe you saw THE ILLUSTRATED ROGER ZELAZNY, with art done by
Gray Morrow.  It does have about five pages of art dealing with the
first set of Amber books, including a page depicting the trumps.
Far better, I think, are the adaptations of A ROSE FOR ECCLESIASTES
and (especially) THE DOORS OF HIS FACE, THE LAMPS OF HIS MOUTH.  It
was published by Baronet Publishing Company, and (noteworthy to
comics fans and graphic novel historians) one of the first
developments of the Byron Preiss studio.

Jeff Meyer
INTERNET: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, hplsla, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 22:12:57 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!corwin@RUTGERS.EDU (John Kempf)
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny (changeling/madwand)

A couple of years ago, a friend went to the Eaton conference and
listened to Zelazny give a talk... According to what she told me:

The Good News:
The third book in the Changeling/Madwand trilogy(?) has been
written.

The Bad News:
It won't be published.  According to my friend, there is some sort
of disagreement between Zelazny and the publisher.  The result?  No
Book.

cory
corwin@apple.[UUCP, CSNET]

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 21:34:08 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny (changeling/madwand)

corwin@apple.UUCP (John Kempf) writes:
>The Good News:
>The third book in the Changeling/Madwand trilogy(?) has been
>written.
>
>The Bad News:
>It won't be published.  According to my friend, there is some sort
>of disagreement between Zelazeny and the publisher.  The result?
>No Book.

Since I like Zelazny, I vote we lynch the publisher.  They're a
dime-a-dozen compared to writers like Zelazny anyway.

Seriously, can anyone substantiate or (hopefully) refute this?
After all, his other books have been getting published, so it seems
like any disputes have been settled.  Or was it a dispute over the
book itself?  I've waited four years for the bloody thing, and I
don't want to be told I can't have it.

Roger Zelazny Trivia Question (for you, LC): Zelazny has re-used a
scene involving a rug in two of his books.  What was the situation,
and what were the books?

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 87 06:43:02 GMT
From: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Tolkien's diction

milne@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
> [ stuff re "Tuatha de Danaan" ]
> There is a name of related meaning in Hebridean folksongs at
> least: Tir-nan-og, meaning, I'm told, "land of the ever-young";

I assume this is where Zelazny got the name Tir-na Nog'th?  (No, I
won't ask where he got Rebma. :-) Does anybody know for sure?

mouse@mcgill-vision.uucp

------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 20:56:40 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!maurice@RUTGERS.EDU (Dale Ross Maurice)
Subject: Amber Books

To all the Amber fans out there in fantasy land.  I was rummaging
among the books at William and Mary College and found something that
might be of interest.  I found the first five books of Amber in a
two volume hardback set.  In the front cover of the second book it
said something to the effect of : " these three books have already
been published in a serialized form in a magazine called 'Galaxy' "
(the first three books refering to the containment of the second
volume of the set).

Does anyone know of such a thing and has anyone seen it before?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 03:36:26 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Amber Books

>I found the first five books of Amber in a two volume hardback set.
>In the front cover of the second book it said something to the
>effect of : " these three books have already been published in a
>serialized form in a magazine called 'Galaxy' " (the first three
>books refering to the containment of the second volume of the set).
>
>Does anyone know of such a thing and has anyone seen it before?

Well, the two volume set is likely the Science Fiction Book Club
edition (the dustcover of one being yellow and the other green). And
yes, much of Amber originally was published in Galaxy (including
Worlds of IF), may it rest in peace.

(Galaxy was at one time edited by Jim Baen, and featured Richard
Geis doing his Alter Ego Schtick. Also the first home of Spider
Robinson's book reviews, and much great fiction. It died in the
mid-70's, a victim of inflation and lagging subscriptions. sigh...)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 19:10:14 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!okstate!uokmax!rufsmith@RUTGERS.EDU (Russell F
From: Smith)
Subject: Re: "Amber" graphic novel/portfolio

I have the book "The Illustrated Zelazny," and here is the
information that was missing...

Editor: Byron Preiss
Artist: Gray Morrow (anyone remember him?)

The title of the aforementioned story is "A Rose for Ecclesiastes",
which is, incidentally, a good one.  Also included (beside the
tapestries and the Shadowjack story) are The Furies, and a story
called The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of His Mouth, which I will
not comment on at this time.

The book has appeared in paperback and hardback, and possibly trade
paperback form.

rufsmith@uokmax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 15:24:12 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!mbrown@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Brown)
Subject: Re: "Amber" graphic novel/portfolio

rufsmith@uokmax.UUCP (Russell F Smith) says:
> I have the book "The Illustrated Zelazny," and here is the The
> book has appeared in paperback and hardback, and possibly trade
> paperback form.

   The hardback was a science fiction book club edition and was
otherwise the same as the trade paperback.  The paperback was redone
to fit the artwork into the smaller format.  In addition, the
paperback includes a few comments about some of the artwork that was
not in the larger format.

Mike Brown
Department of Computer Science
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29634-1906
(803)656-2838
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!mbrown
Internet: mbrown@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 14:32:03 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Phillip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Request for the name of the Ninth Prince of Amber (attn.
Subject: Zelazny fans)

   Good generation tree, but you forgot two other members of the
family.  This is not surprising, since they were only mentioned in
passing, because they chose to leave Amber and its power
struggles....

   They are Delwin, and his sister Sand.

Phil V.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 87 22:47:45 EDT
From: Jeremy Bornstein <JEREMY%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Zelazny game...

Someone recently asked about an Amber graphic novel, which reminded
me of an Amber computer 'adventure' game which I saw about two or
three years ago.  The back of the package gave me the impression
that the player is Corwin, who comes across a strange pack of
cards...  Has anyone played this game?

Jeremy Bornstein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 87 17:44 EST
From: Mike Pagan <MPAGAN%rca.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: A book worth reading

A Recommendation:
   Bordertown
   edited by Terri Windling & Mark Alan Arnold
   Signet 451-AE4527

   I was wondering if anyone has seen the first book in the
_Borderland_ shared world anthology (edited by Terri Windling and
Mark Alan Arnold, the same people who do the _Liavek_ (sp?) books)?
   Quite by accident I managed to find a lone copy of _Bordertown_,
which seems to be the second book in the series.  I was attracted to
the cover, which was painted by someone named Phil Hale but I almost
didn't buy it because I had never heard of any of the authors or (at
that time) the editors.  Remarkably enough, the cover turns out to
be one of those rare ones which accurately reflects not only the
plot but also the *feeling* of the book.  More remarkable was the
fact that this lone copy was sitting there, out of alphabetical
order, in a B Dalton store (not known for being terribly adventurous
in their choice of SF&F).
   The book contains four stories, which are actually two novellas
and two short stories, dealing with a place called "Bordertown"
(wow, big suprise).  Bordertown is the city which exists in the near
future on the border between The World (where you and I live) and
Faerie (where the elves live).  It seems the elves re-opened contact
with The World sometime in the 1990's because we have something they
need (we're not told what this is; I assume we found out in the
previous book) and because some liberals got into power over in
elfland who don't dislike humans quite so much (this is implied, not
stated outright).  Bordertown was a city standing on the site of the
gate, so it turned into a sort of free trade zone where both magic
and technology work, but neither too well or the way you expect it
to.  An interesting twist is the fact that it is not only humans who
are attracted to the magic of Bordertown; elves too are attracted by
technology.  Too often the "science- meets-magic" books denigrate
technology as unnatural and evil.  In Boredertown, we get elves like
Tick-Tick who got her nickname because she likes to play with
technological devices that go "boom."
   Now here's the kicker.  We all know about Cyberpunk, that
sometimes good, often abused new genre.  Well, this book is Elfpunk
- the fantasy equivalent to science fictions Cyberpunk.  Most of the
action in Bordertown takes place in SoHo - "South of Ho Street."
Very reminiscent of New York's Greenwich Village and SoHo sections
before they started to gentrify too much.  Elf and Human gangs
(Blood and The Pack respectively) ride motorcycles and get high on
faery dust.  The setting is on the seedy side, and the characters
down- and-out antiheros, just like Cyberpunk.  The difference is, I
get the impression that the authors are writing it all from personal
experience. This feeling is probably true; the mini-biographies at
the back of the book show the authors to be publishers of
underground punk comic books (Emma Bull and Will Shatterly),
ex-hippie folk musicians (Ellen Kushner), along with Midori
something-or-other, and Bellamy Bach.
   One problem with most of the stories is the inclusion of "Mary
Jane" characters (correct me if I'm wrong: "Mary Jane" is the pluck
young lass in the Star Trek novel who just happens to coincidentally
resemble the author).  I really shouldn't call this a problem
though, because these "Mary Janes" were actually interesting people
who added to and advanced the plot of the story.  The problem is
that the authors can't go on writing like that; it gets boring and
self-indulgent.  Reading another person's wish fulfilment fantasy is
interesting only if the person is really interesting, and only the
first time.  I give it ***+ for being new, and cross my fingers that
they don't Thieves' World it to death.

So anyway, is the first one (_Borderland_) still in print?

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 17:52:43 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Re: A book worth reading

Mike Pagan <MPAGAN%rca.com@relay.cs.net> writes:
>   I was wondering if anyone has seen the first book in the
>_Borderland_ shared world anthology (edited by Terri Windling and
>Mark Alan Arnold, the same people who do the _Liavek_ (sp?) books)?
>   Quite by accident I managed to find a lone copy of _Bordertown_,
>which seems to be the second book in the series.  I was attracted
>to the cover, which was painted by someone named Phil Hale but I
>almost didn't buy it [...]
>  More remarkable was the fact that this lone copy was sitting
>there, out of alphabetical order, in a B Dalton store (not known
>for being terribly adventurous in their choice of SF&F).

I, too, found it sitting out of order on the shelf, but at Crown
Books, rather than B. Dalton.  I liked the cover a lot, and while I
know what they say about judging books thereby, I got it anyway.  I
enjoyed it a great deal, not least because the heroine in "Demon"
very closely resembles a person very near and dear to my heart (me).
So when I came across two, count 'em two, copies of "Borderlands" in
the Buddenbooks Booksmiths I snapped them up.  "Borderlands" has a
similar cover, although without the same indefinable aliveness that
the cover of "Bordertown" has.  The stories in B-lands seem to
pre-date those in B-town; I say this because there is a good deal
more exposition about the hows and whys of B-town.  And the first
story makes it *very* clear just where B-town is, or at least where
one author put it, relative to this world.  (You may have had to
live in the town in question to recognize it; but possibly not.
Suffice to say, if I had to pick one place as likely for a
congruence of worlds, the place they picked is the same one I'd have
picked)

> I give it ***+ for being new, and cross my fingers that they
> don't Thieves' World it to death.

I'd have given it 4 stars, but mainly because of my affection for
the aforementioned heroine in "Demon."  I'd rate "Borderlands" at
***.  An entertaining read, but a letdown when I was hoping for
something as good as "Bordertown."

> So anyway, is the first one (_Borderland_) still in print?

I would think so.  Buddenbooks is not likely to have had an obscure
book lying around.  If your local bookstore won't or can't order it
for you, send me email and I'll try to track it down.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 19:56:16 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: A book worth reading

I read _Bordertown_ some time ago, and the description "Elfpunk" is
on-target.  I found it a good book, though I liked the idea (the
locale, atmosphere and so on) better than the stories.  I expect it
will go the way of Thieves' World...

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@ucla.cs.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 03:08:03 GMT
From: moss!inuxc!pickle@RUTGERS.EDU (Greg Pickle)
Subject: Re: A book worth reading

Anyone who writes a review of "Bordertown" and entitles it "A book
worth reading" shouldn't have to face the howling mobs of serious
literature purists alone.  Two positive reviews of the Bordertown
stuff should smoke out Bill Ingogly if he's only maintaining a noble
silence and not really gone.

I would never recommend the Bordertown stuff as "good" in the sense
that Gibson or Card are good.  But in comparison with your basic,
run-of-the-mill fantasy I thinks it comes off ok.  If you like
shared world series and cyberpunk then you might find "Bordertown"
fun and a little different.

When I started reading the first book, "Borderland" I didn't like it
much so I tossed it aside.  Sometime after that I got hooked on
cyberpunk ( I'm a sucker for sunny optimism, :-) ).  After
"Neuromancer", "Count Zero", "Burning Chrome", "Mirrorshades",
"Hard-wired" and the like I decided punk elves would be an
interesting lighter variation on a theme.  Second time around I
thought the two "Bordertown" books were kind of neat.  I believe a
third is due out soon.  I'm not haunting the bookstores like I did
for "Intervention" & "Sign of Chaos" but I'll snap it up when it
makes its appearance.

Greg Pickle
..!ihnp4!inuxc!pickle

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 15-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #402
Date: 15 Sep 87 1023-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #402
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Sep 87 1023-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #402
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 15 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 402

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Bear (4 msgs) & Brooks &
                          Caidin & May & Sagan (2 msgs) &
                          Zimmer (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Sep 87 23:18:50 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Bear novel

brothers@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu writes:
>Unfortunately, there are some inconsistencies to this ingenious
>novel of alien invasion which perhaps someone can explain....
>[rather odd and inexplicable behavior of Bear's aliens]

A writer's characters can be at most as intelligent and ingenious as
the author himself.  As I have learned from Greg Bear's other books,
Greg is a very good writer, but not a genius by any stretch of
imagination.

In fact, what's most frustrating about Bear's writing is the inanity
of his characters' actions when they are alleged to be of geniuses.
Why shouldn't an alien race be as disingenious as everyone else in
Bear's novels?

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 21:36:19 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Bear novel

>A writer's characters can be at most as intelligent and ingenious
>as the author himself.  As I have learned from Greg Bear's other
>books, Greg is a very good writer, but not a genius by any stretch
>of imagination.

[Thousands cringe at the horrific sound of chuqui's hackles slowly
raising...]

I can't believe someone said this with a straight face. How can
anyone make implications about an author's intelligence or
personality simply by reading their books? I can think of MANY cases
where this statement is flatly wrong -- starting with Greg Bear.
Spend an evening talking with the man sometime, and then try to tell
me he isn't a genius...

If you're going to make nasty comments about authors, and least give
yourself some basis for it. You might as well say that Bear is a
rotten person because his first name is Greg -- it makes as much
sense.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 22:58:21 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!david@RUTGERS.EDU (David DiGiacomo)
Subject: Re: Bear novel

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>A writer's characters can be at most as intelligent and ingenious
>>as the author himself.  As I have learned from Greg Bear's other
>>books, Greg is a very good writer, but not a genius by any stretch
>>of imagination.
>
>I can't believe someone said this with a straight face. How can
>anyone make implications about an authors intelligence or
>personality simply by reading their books?

I can't think of a better way to draw such inferences!  It certainly
beats schmoozing at a SFWA party.

> I can think of MANY cases where this statement is flatly wrong ---
>starting with Greg Bear. Spend an evening talking with the man
>sometime, and then try to tell me he isn't a genius...

Arrogance and pomposity are not necessarily signs of genius...

David [not a genius] DiGiacomo

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 23:18:01 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Bear novel

>I can't think of a better way to draw such inferences!  It
>certainly beats schmoozing at a SFWA party.

I think I'm being baited, but what the heck. My comment implied (or
tried to imply) that such inferences shouldn't be drawn at all. God
forbid that I draw such inferences about the folks here on the net
from THEIR writing, or I'd believe many things I know (from
experience meeting net people in person) are untrue and nasty...

Of course, sometimes they're true, but that seems to be the
exception.

And, of course, don't put down SFWA parties. Unless, of course, you
can't get in. (and for that matter, I didn't meet Bear at an SFWA
party -- it was long before I joined the SFWA, and at a friends
housewarming, for what it matters)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 87  18:11:07 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Terry Brooks

I tried to read The Sword of Sha-na-na when it first came out.  I
gave up when I realized the following things:
1.  The plot was a direct rip from Tolkien.
2.  The wizard's name was pronounced exactly the same way as the
    most common abbreviation for Alcoholics Anonymous.
3.  The female lead was named Shirl Ravenlock, yet had red hair.

I can't say as I'm sorry I never finished the thing; even at 16, I
had better ways to waste my time....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 09:09:45 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Martin Caidin
From: Wahl.ElSegundo@Xerox.COM

Submitted for Jim Finch:

The following is a list of books written by Martin Caidin. Someone
mentioned him in a recent digest and since he is one of my favorite
authors, I thought I would send this along.

Zoboa
Killer Station
The Messiah Stone
Marooned
No Man's World
The Cape
Four Came Back
Starbright
ManFac
Jericho 52
Aquarius Mission
Cyborg
Operation Nuke
High Crystal
Devil Take All
The Last Dogfight
The God Machine
Anytime, Anywhere
Whip
The Last Fathom
The Mendelov Conspiracy
Almost Midnight
Maryjane Tonight at Angels 12
Wingborn
The Final Countdown
Three Corners to Nowhere
Deathmate
The Long Night
Cyborg IV

The following are non-fiction:

Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38
Zero
Samurai
The Zero Fighter
Thunderbolt
Flying Forts
Messerschmitt ME-109
The Night Hamburg Died
A Torch to the Enemy
Air Force
Golden Wings
The Silken Angels
Black Thursday
The Mission
The Ragged, Rugged Warriors
Thunderbirds
Everything But the Flak
The Man in Space Dictionary

There are more, but that's all I could come up with at the moment.

Jim Finch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 87 20:24 EDT
From: <MICROMGR%BCVMS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Ted Thibodeau)
Subject: New Julian May novel

At last! A new chronicle along the lines of Pliocine Exile!! But,
wait...  no it seems that I am to be disappointed once again...

What has happenned to the books which were referred to at the end of
the four-part Exile series? Those which were to tell us more about
the Remillard family, and those events which pre-dated the first
journeys into the past; that is to say, the things which affected
the Torc-wearers and the other assorted inhabitants of the remote
past?

I hope that this will not be another in that much mourned genre of
foretold but never written books, such some of the many stories that
Robert A. Heinlein alludes to in some of his writing as being fully
plotted and populated, needing only to be set on paper; and then
never are.

If I have by some chance (and with a good dose of felicity) missed
these books of which I speak, or if this IS the new tales of the
Remillards which Ms May fortold at the end of the Pliocene Exile,
PLEASE direct e-mail me the good news!  I look forward to tomorrow's
(and tomorrow's tomorrow's) mail-basket!

Ted Thibodeau, Jr.
c/o IPS
Gasson 012
Boston College
Chestnut Hill, MA  02167
micromgr@bcvax3.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 87 08:56:22 PDT
From: marotta%gnuvax.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Do you believe in magic?)
Subject: Sagan's "Contact"

I'm glad to see this novel in the discussion again.  I read it when
it was first released, in hardcover.  I understand there are a lot
problems with the scientific aspects, and I hear the mathematics are
not all that believable.

But, for a non-mathematician like me, the book was very believable.
I especially liked the personal story of the female scientist and
her hopes for the future of the human race.  The general ethics and
philosophy of the novel fall right in line with my own, so I enjoyed
the way Sagan counterbalanced this kind of idealism against the
myriad of hard-nosed realists that afflict the project of contacting
the aliens.

I will also admit that the climactic scene when they finally broke
the code is followed by a lot of anti-climatic, even
anti-scientific, moralisms and devices.  The funny trappings in the
"spaceship" and the letdown of the final chapters (where the main
character's psychological trauma is explained away) seem to lack the
power and urgency of the first half of the novel.  I speculate that
Sagan uses symbolism to avoid some deeper emotional confrontation
that might be anathematic to the publisher.

Nevertheless, a good read.  Since the author was Carl Sagan (not a
novelist) that is a high complement.

Mary

------------------------------

Date: 15 SEP 87 09:28-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Sagan's "Contact"

I know about one other method used to decipher the messages from
Vega : On page 90 of my copy of _Contac_ (Arrow Books) it says that
they used "polarization modulation" to decrypt the "picture".

Jacqueline
BITNET : U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 87 15:08:43 EDT
From: brothers@who.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Zimmer

Zimmer's latest story about Istvan DiVega is finally out, and
bizarrely, it has nothing to do with the happening in the other two
books. Instead, and disappointingly, it has turned into another
Elf/Dwarf/Wizard book.  Indeed, the book is dedicated to lovers of
Elves and Dwarves, a breed set apart from most other kinds of fan by
their unrelenting dedication to cuteness and gore intertwined.

But still, the book is not really so bad as all that. I like
DiVega's character, and his placement in the middle of a bunch of
Celtic-style heroes is really pretty funny. Also interesting is the
tenuous connect between Zimmer's work and Marion Zimmer Bradley's,
via the Hasturs and the Towers (different from those on Darkover,
though). Since Zimmer uses some Cthuloid monsters (Dyoles, eg),
there is an even stronger connection between the Mythos and the
worlds of Zimmer and Darkover.

I wonder what it is that drives authors to reach back to that
tradition started by Robert Chambers with The Yellow Sign. Even
authors who don't include any Lovecraftian elements at all have The
King in Yellow wandering around their works as cameo characters, and
people like Lawrence Watt-Evans, Raymond Chandler, etc. all include
references, or even stories that revolve around one or another
element of this weird tradition.

The funny thing is that no one seems to agree on definitions. Is
Hastur a monster like Cthulhu ("he that is not to be named")? Where
is Carcosa anyhow? Or are hasturs eternal dogooders like in Zimmer
and Bradley....

Oh, by the way, the book's title is "A Gathering of Heroes".

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 16:17:37 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Zimmer

brothers@who.rutgers.edu writes:
> Also interesting is the tenuous connect between Zimmer's work and
> Marion Zimmer Bradley's, via the Hasturs and the Towers (different
> from those on Darkover, though). Since Zimmer uses some Cthuloid
> monsters (Dyoles, eg), there is an even stronger connection
> between the Mythos and the worlds of Zimmer and Darkover.
>
> I wonder what it is that drives authors to reach back to that
> tradition started by Robert Chambers with The Yellow Sign.  Even
> authors who don't include any Lovecraftian elements at all have
> The King in Yellow wandering around their works as cameo
> characters, and people like Lawrence Watt-Evans, Raymond Chandler,
> etc. all include references, or even stories that revolve around
> one or another element of this weird tradition.

I'd appreciate hearing from any lovers of the Zimmer/Bradley or
Watt-Evans books regarding the specific connections between those
books and "The King in Yellow".  I have the last book of
Watt-Evans's D^ur series (title escapes me) and see only a few
references, such as "Yhtill".  I just bought THE HERITAGE OF HASTUR
and note placenames on the map such as "Demhe" and "Hali".  I'd like
more details.  If you're unfamiliar with Chambers, I can post a list
of the appropriate names, and you can tell me what, if anything,
they mean in the books.

> The funny thing is that no one seems to agree on definitions. Is
> Hastur a monster like Cthulhu ("he that is not to be named")?
> Where is Carcosa anyhow? Or are hasturs eternal dogooders like in
> Zimmer and Bradley....

Hastur started out as a god of the shepherds in Ambrose Bierce's
short story "Haita the Shepherd".  Chambers picked up the name,
along with Carcosa and Hali, from Bierce's "An Inhabitant of
Carcosa", and added a few more when he invented the
insanity-producing "The King in Yellow".  Strangely, Chambers seems
to use Hastur as a place name.  When Lovecraft absorbed the
Bierce/Chambers creations into his own works, he restored Hastur to
godhood, though with no shepherd connections.

Bierce and Chambers never say where Carcosa is, though the
impression is given that it's a prehistoric city.  Lovecraft merely
repeats the name and says nothing about its location.  I think it
was August Derleth who placed it on a planet somewhere in the Hyades
cluster, where it sits on the shores of the black Lake of Hali
wherein Hastur the Unspeakable, "Him Who Is Not to be Named", is
imprisoned.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 87 20:28:16 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Zimmer

Maybe NOW people will stop asking him for the nonexistent "third
book" of a novel which was split into two volumes by the publisher?
  He not only said so repeatedly, he got so disgusted he ordered a
set of buttons with Answers to Most Frequently Asked Questions
1) MacAlpin Ancient
2) Etchings
3) There IS NO third book!
4) No, Marion Zimmer Bradley is not my wife!

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 14:12:23 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Zimmer

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt) writes:
>I'd appreciate hearing from any lovers of the Zimmer/Bradley or
>Watt-Evans books regarding the specific connections between those
>books and "The King in Yellow".  I have the last book of
>Watt-Evans's D^ur series (title escapes me) and see only a few
>references, such as "Yhtill".  I just bought THE HERITAGE OF HASTUR
>and note placenames on the map such as "Demhe" and "Hali".  I'd
>like more details.  If you're unfamiliar with Chambers, I can post
>a list of the appropriate names, and you can tell me what, if
>anything, they mean in the books.

MZB wrote an article in one of the fanzines (I can not remember
which) where she told of the derivation of the "Hastur" mythos from
the Bierce/Chambers version (with the benevolent "shepherd god") and
roundly denounced Lovecraft for making "her" Hasturs into icky
monsters.
    Actually, both Darkover and the world of the Dark Border, before
their various transformations on the way to being published, were
their respective halves of a childhood fantasy world.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 14:23:48 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Zimmer

William Linden writes:
> MZB wrote an article in one of the fanzines (I can not remember
> which) where she told of the derivation of the "Hastur" mythos
> from the Bierce/Chambers version (with the benevolent "shepherd
> god") and roundly denounced Lovecraft for making "her" Hasturs
> into icky monsters.

Great!  Who can give me pointers to this article?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #403
Date: 16 Sep 87 0900-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #403
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Sep 87 0900-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #403
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Sep 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 403

Today's Topics:

              Books - Bear & Bisson & Card (2 msgs) &
                      Heinlein & Lindholm & Moorcock &
                      Sagan & Thieves' World (2 msgs) &
                      Post Holocaust Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 16:48:57 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Bear novel

Time for my two cents.  Here are my credentials:

1) I've never read anything by Greg Bear (to my knowledge), so I
   have no preconceptions of his personality, genius, or
   what-have-you.

2) I have a BA in English Lit.

Now, david@sun.uucp (David DiGiacomo) writes:

>chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
[this next quote is David again]
>>>A writer's characters can be at most as intelligent and ingenious
>>>as the author himself.  As I have learned from Greg Bear's other
>>>books, Greg is a very good writer, but not a genius by any
>>>stretch of imagination.
>>...
>>I can't believe someone said this with a straight face. How can
>>anyone make implications about an authors intelligence or
>>personality simply by reading their books?
>
> I can't think of a better way to draw such inferences!

Chuq later argues that one shouldn't try to draw such inferences.  I
agree.

On general principles, I'll argue that David's notion that "A
writer's characters can be at most as intelligent and ingenious as
the author himself" is untrue.  An author can certainly give the
impression that a character is intelligent and such without
resorting to specific examples which would then be limited by the
author's own level of whatever it is.  This could very easily turn
into a side discussion on the measurability of intelligence, but I
see no reason why an author couldn't have a flash of insight into
making a character more whatever than the author is.

However, it is definitely a critical fallacy to draw inferences
about any aspect of an author based on that author's works.  We've
been through this before with the cyclic Heinlein and/or Bradley
politics debates.  What an author makes a character say or do in a
story *may* be, but is *not necessarily*, what an author believes or
does in real life.  Period.  This includes intelligence.

Chuq writes:

>> I can think of MANY cases where this statement is flatly wrong --
>>starting with Greg Bear. Spend an evening talking with the man
>>sometime, and then try to tell me he isn't a genius...

And David replies:

> Arrogance and pomposity are not necessarily signs of genius...

From which I assume that David has heard Greg Bear speak.  I see no
other reason why he would assign these traits to him, nor do I know
if Bear actually has these traits.  But if Chuq has spoken with
Bear, even if it is at a party, and David has only read Bear's
books, then Chuq has the firmer grasp on Bear's personality, *even
if* Chuq may be idolizing him (I'm not saying that's what Chuq's
doing; I'm just saying that even colored personal experience beats
inferences based on works of fiction).

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 12:53 PDT
From: MORGAN%FM1%intel-sc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Terry Bisson

Howard Coleman wrote, on 8/26:

>  A recommendation. Terry Bisson's second novel, TALKING MAN, is
>out in paperback. Do yourself a favor and read it. TALKING MAN is a
>contemporary fantasy - that is, it has no dragons, elves,
>furry-toed folks, wiz-.....

That, and the rest of his description (I like junkyards) propmted me
to get the book Sunday evening.  If I hadn't been rudely interrupted
by Monday I would have finished it that night.  A real page turner.
Strikingly original as Howard said.

Morgan Mussell

------------------------------

Date: Tue 15 Sep 87 11:37:37-CDT
From: David Gadbois <CGS.GADBOIS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Card's plots

Has anyone noticed how the basic plot skeletons of many of O.S.
Card's stories are pretty much identical?  I've read ENDER'S GAME,
the two Worthing chronicle books, SONGMASTER, the stories in
UNACCOMPANIED SONATA, and a number of shorts he's published in
Asimov's magazine, and it seems they mostly go like this:

  1. Incredibly gifted, powerful, and/or unique innocent child gets
discovered/created by those-in-power and is put to work for them.

  2. Said child suffers greatly in the service of those-in-power
because his gifts are put to evil, or at least immoral, use.

  3. Child snaps to his situation, realizes what he has done, and
does one or more of the following:
     a. Fatalistically accepts his slavish situation
     b. Feels real bad and goes on a guilt trip
     c. Gets real mad and blows everybody up.

Is Card trying to inundate us with whatever moral programme this
plot structure represents?  Or has he found the perfect -- i.e., the
most salable -- sf plot?  Or is he just lacking in the creativity
department.

Now, I haven't read his new stuff that's been discussed here
recently, but from what's been said, I think these comments also
apply, especially to SEVENTH SON.  I've found Card's writing to be
pretty impressive stylistically, but I just got tired of reading the
same story over and over again.

David Gadbois
cgs.gadbois@r20.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 14:21:10 -0400
From: mberkman@cc5.bbn.com
Subject: Seventh Son

Card read "Runaway" at Worldcon last year.  At the time, he said
that he expected the series to consist of 5 books.  He hadn't
expected it to become that long.  As a matter of fact, he said that
he had intended Alvin to be a minor character, who wound up
demanding an entire book of his own.  I may not be remembering this
clearly, but I believe that "Runaway" was part of book 3, and that
he was already working on book 4.

I completely agree with the earlier statement that Card is a
demigod.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 21:37:05 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

BREEBAAR@HLERUL5.BITNET:
>Question #2: His best novel, and indeed the best SF-novel I have
>ever read, is 'The Number Of The Beast'. Only problem is, no matter
>how many times I reread the darn thing, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
>ENDING!  I am talking about part 4, L'envoi, specifically about
>what happens in the last few pages, What It Means, what happens
>when the forest ranger creature suddenly appears, what the purpose
>of the convention really was. I just don't get it.  Am I missing
>some subtle reference (Lord knows he put in plenty of those!) or am
>I trying to find Meaning in something that has none or am I just
>plain Stupid?

You're in the minority; most people *HATE* NoTB.  (I'm _not_ one of
them.)

Seen from the outside, it's Heinlein egotism -- get as many major
characters from as many of his books as is possible together into a
single scene.  From the inside --

The convention was called for the sole purpose of acting as a "Black
Hat" lure; it succeeded, but the alien escaped... right into the
arms of someone from another universe, who presumably had other
plans for it...

My only complaint with NoTB is that megaverse fiction is too
difficult for an author to put across successfully.  The only
exceptions are the ones which use multiple universes as a backdrop,
rather than the main event: a short story by Spider Robinson (I
don't remember the name) and the Amber series by Zelazny are in this
class.  Both concentrate on _people_, not the nature of the
multiverse, and thus succeed.

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 1987 12:44:52 EDT (Tue)
From: Dan Hoey <hoey@nrl-aic.ARPA>
Subject: Wizard of the Pigeons (was Fantasy Recs)
Cc: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)

From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
>_Wizard of the Pigeons_ is about a man known only as Wizard.  He
>lives in present-day Seattle, and one day (before this story
>begins) he discovers that magic really exists....

and we must note, the magic camouflages itself as mundane reality to
the ordinary people of Seattle.  Another way of reading WotP is that
the wizard is schizophrenic and unable to separate his fantasies of
magical happenings from the mundane reality in which he lives.  In
case you are about to dismiss this as the hackneyed ``... but it was
all a dream'' plot device, I must beg to differ--Lindholm skillfully
makes both readings equally valid, and manages to find a new point
of view that is simultaneously realistic and fantastic.

It is easy to see why this might not appeal to the earlier poster
who complained that ``the hero was a sniviling [sic] wimp''.  This
is not a typical heroic/swords-and-sorcery/Tolkien-ripoff story, and
its characters and plot do not lend themselves to the sort of
vicarious escape that such stories generally cater to.  But if you
want a book that covers new ground in imaginative writing, I would
recommend it wholeheartedly.

Dan Hoey

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 14:24:42 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!eme@RUTGERS.EDU (e.m.eades)
Subject: received replys to Hawkmoon request

Thank you everyone who sent a response about Hawkmoon.

The following is the synopsis of the books in the Eternal Champion
series of which Hawkmoon is part.

The ELRIC novels (in order)

1. Elric of Melnibone             (British: The Dreaming City)
2. A Sailor on the Seas of Fate
3. Weird of the White Wolf        (British: The Stealer of Souls)
4. The Vanishing Tower            (British: The Sleeping Sorceress)
5. The Bane of the Black Sword
6. Stormbringer
7. Elric at the End of Time   (A short story found in the collection
                               of the same name)

The CORUM novels (in order)

1. The Knight of the Swords
2. The Queen of the Swords
3. The King of the Swords
   1,2,&3 collected as The Swords Trilogy
4. The Bull and the Spear
5. The Oak and the Ram
6. The Sword and the Stallion
   4,5,&6 collected as The Chronicles of Corum

The HAWKMOON novels (in order)

1. The Jewel in the Skull
2. The Mad God's Amulet     (British: Sorcerer's Amulet)
3. The Sword of the Dawn
4. The Runestaff            (British: The Secret of the Runestaff)
> someone suggested these be read last <
5. Count Brass
6. The Champion of Garathorm   (Can also be read as Erekose #3)
7. The Quest for Tanelorn      (Can also be read as Erekose #4)

Erekose

1. The Eternal Champion
2. The Silver Warriors    (British: Phoenix in Obsidian)

Incarnations of the E.C. in more modern times include Jerry
Corneilus and Oswald Bastable.

The JERRY CORNELIUS novels (in order)

1. The Final Program
2. A Cure for Cancer
3. The English Assassin
4. The Condition of Muzak
   1,2,3,&4 collected as The Cornelius Cronicles
5. The Lives (sic) and Times of Jerry Cornelius
6. The Adventures of Una Persson and Catherine Cornelius in the 20th
   Century

The OSWALD BASTABLE novels (in order)

1. The Warlord of the Air
2. The Land Leviathan
3. The Steel Tsar

Jeff Okamoto also suggested that the Chaosium Hawkmoon game be used
with the Stormbringer game (based on the Elric stories).

Thanks for the info.

Beth

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 05:54:56 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Sagan's _Contact_ and Brooks's _The Sword of Shanara_

POSSIBLE SPOILERS, if you care...

CONTACT:

I liked the latter half of this book except maybe for all the
anti-climax at the end and the gushy "hope for humanity" theme. The
beginning seemed to me to be unwieldy and boring and at times
stupid; in short, it was evident that this was Sagan's first work of
fiction and that he was more used to writing science articles.

I saw a lot of autobiographical essence in the main scientist
character (what- ever her name was), and at the beginning I thought
this was carried a bit too far and was going to ruin the story.
Fortunately, Sagan's writing got steadily better as the novel moved
along, until I thought the second half to be a very good (part-of-a)
book.

I am glad Sagan didn't continue writing such "hard" sf throughout
the book. The first half was very hard (to me) in that everything
was scientists and research and all that borrrrring stuff that a lot
of hard sf writers compose whole careers out of. It also stuck to
all the known hypotheses, etc. I was extremely amazed that Sagan
dropped this mode for the more fantasy-esque journey in the Machine
and dreamy speculation *outside* the bounds of present theory (at
least in a way, though I suppose you could say today's theories
*could* allow wormholes, etc., but this whole thing about beings
being the guardians of some ancient interstellar transport system
that even *another* race left behind...  was pure use of the
imagination).


THE SWORD OF SHANARA:

Yes the plot was a direct transcription of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and
all that, but I found this book to be so well written that the fact
that the story was not in the least original detracted not a bit
from it for me. And of course the story had lots of room for minor
variation from Tolkien, etc., that made things interesting. I just
loved that story when Tolkien told it and enjoyed rereading the same
"legend" from a different "bard" so to speak.

Plus THE ELFSTONES OF SHANARA was original, and I suppose WISHSONG
OF SHANARA probably is too, though I've been waiting for it to come
out in mass-market paper for, ohhhhhh, I would suppose it must be
something like 2 or 3 years by now, before reading it...

Kev
sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: WED SEP 09, 1987 10.26.28 EDT
From: "Tom Browne" <TPB1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Thieve's World

seismo!uunet!garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu writes:
>olegovna@math.UCLA.edu writes:
>>sean1@garfield.uucp writes:
>>>I do like ShadowSpawn though.
>> You must mean ShadowsPawn
>  True, there is some ambiguity here....

Yes, there is some ambiguity with his name, but according to Andrew
Offutt (the creator of Shadowspawn).. the name is ShadowSpawn as in
spawn of Shadows (as mentioned in his novel SHADOWSPAWN).

I do think the ambiguity though, was at least in the back of his
mind when he created the character.

Tom Browne
TPB1@LEHIGH.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 16:59:20 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Thieve's World

From: "Tom Browne" <TPB1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>seismo!uunet!garfield!sean1@rutgers.edu writes:
>>olegovna@math.UCLA.edu writes:
>>>sean1@garfield.uucp writes:
>>>>I do like ShadowSpawn though.
>>> You must mean ShadowsPawn
>>  True, there is some ambiguity here....
>
>Yes, there is some ambiguity with his name, but according to Andrew
>Offutt (the creator of Shadowspawn).. the name is ShadowSpawn as in
>spawn of Shadows (as mentioned in his novel SHADOWSPAWN).
>
>I do think the ambiguity though, was at least in the back of his
>mind when he created the character.

I think two of the Thieves' World stories were titled "Shadow Spawn"
and "Shadows Pawn", making it absolutely intentional.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 12:59:35 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Post-Holocaust stories

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Who wrote the first one, and did the trend toward a "Mad Max" type
>of world start with the movies, or before?

If you are referring to a NUCLEAR holocaust (i.e. atomic war) rather
than any of the more traditional kinds, then I claim the first such
novel is 'The World Set Free', by H G Wells, published in about
1902.

Since I've not seen the movies, I may be a little vague about what
'Mad Max' is; but anyway, Wells' book is still a good read.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #404
Date: 17 Sep 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #404
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Sep 87 0827-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #404
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 404

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bear (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) &
                     Napoleon & Story Request Answers (2 msgs) &
                     A Correction & Upcoming Books &
                     Fantasy (2 msgs) & Post Holocaust Stories &
                     Cyberpunk (3 msgs),
             Magazines - Galaxy & Worlds of If

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 SEP 87 10:53-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Greg Bear

Oh no!! Planet eating aliens and neutronium!! That rings a bell!!!
Sounds an awfull lot like the ST episode "The Doomsday Machine" (by
Norman Spinrad, I think).

Greg Bear is also known for writing the most unbelievable Star Trek
Novel : "Corona", which features, of all things, an intelligent sun.
Wow!  Although on the other hand "Bloodmusic " (was that the name)
was quite acceptable and enjoyable. Strange......

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 19:43:47 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Greg Bear

>Greg Bear is also known for writing the most unbelievable Star Trek
>Novel : "Corona", which features, of all things, an intelligent
>sun. Wow!

It's amazing what people will do to pay the rent. Could have been a
good Star Trek novel if he hadn't tried to hurry it through to get
back to real literature...

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 22:49:00 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: "Amber" graphic novel/portfolio

rbw@jersey writes:
>The was a book _The Illustrated Roger Zelazny_ which had a
>portfolio of the trumps (not very accurate now...) as well as an
>illustrated Jack of Shadows story and "A Rose for something or
>other".

Gack. "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" - fantastic story. Can also be found
in *The Doors of His Face, the Lamps of His Mouth*, a
not-to-be-missed collection.

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 23:13:42 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!okstate!uokmax!rufsmith@RUTGERS.EDU (Russell F
From: Smith)
Subject: Re: Request for the name of the Ninth Prince of Amber (attn.
Subject: Zelazny fans)

In reference to Phillip Verdieck's previous comment...

Actually, in my first generation tree I posted, I had a disclaimer
about "only having the characters in the first series," but I
neglected it (I suppose) in the more recent one.  Now ya know.

Thanks for the reminder, anyway.

rufsmith@uokmax.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 01:15:41 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: The first "I am >>really<< Napoleon"

mcohen@nrtc.arpa writes:
>>                       MEMORIES by Mike McQuay
>> ...But not until now has anyone taken that idea and said, "What
>> if he really WERE Napoleon?"
>
> Not so! I recall a story (perhaps by William Tenn, perhaps called
> "The Red and the Black") ...
>
> The central (human) character is a newsman (I think) who had
> actually been Napoleon. Because he (as Nappy) had been too
> successful, he had been removed from his body in the 1800's and
> placed in the body of the newsman. He fully remembers his life as
> Napoleon, and his adjustment to our time (about 1960 or so) is
> part of the story.

 (spoiler deleted ...)

I'm pretty sure you mean the Frederic Brown story (many apologies if
I've misspelled his name again) entitled "Come and Go Mad".  I'm
sure it's in several of his collections.  There's also a somewhat
similar idea (about Napoleon, I mean) in the title story of his
collection "Paradox Lost".  Everything of his greatly recommended,
btw (by me, anyway).  Anyone know where to get a copy of _The Lights
in the Sky Are Stars_ ?

jed hartman
{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 14:57:54 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!nosc!cod!rupp@RUTGERS.EDU (William L. Rupp)
Subject: Re: Brazil in space (was: Re: High altitude lauch sites)

svh@CCA.CCA.COM.UUCP (Susan Hammond) writes:
>miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>>postulates that the big space power of the future will be BRAZIL.
>>Although this seems ludicrous at......

L. Sprague DeCamp (LEST DARKNESS FALL, AN ELEPHANT FOR ARISTOTLE,
etc., etc.) wrote such a book back in the late 1950's.  Can't
remember the title at the moment.  I think it was an Ace paperback,
but probably first published in one the SF magazines of the day,
perhaps one of the minor ones.

As for the idea being ridiculous, you never know.  What if we had
another ice age that essentially destroyed northern Europe and North
America?  Or a war that did more or less the same?  Somebody would
be left to take over world leadership, and Brazil is a large country
with lots of resources.  I somewhat doubt *anybody* would be
venturing into space under those conditions, however.  Not for a
long time, but then, SF novels usually take place "after a long
time," and in that type of scenario, lots of things are conceivable.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 20:41:35 GMT
From: mtune!homxb!roger@RUTGERS.EDU (R.TAIT)
Subject: Re: Brazilian sites (was Re: High altitude lauch sites)

wyatt@cfa.harvard.EDU (Bill Wyatt) writes:
>>I have heard, a couple of times, about a sci-fi novel that
>>postulates that the big space power of the future will be
>>BRAZIL....
>
> Somebody jog my memory. I think it was Poul Anderson who (also)
> wrote such a future history, several stories collectively known as
> `Tales of the Viagens'

Joe and Jack C. Haldeman, in _There_Is_No_Darkness_ talk about the
Confederacion (damn these unaccented keyboards! I want my Mac!)
which is an interplanetary outgrowth of a Terran civilization that
only took to space after the economic collapse of the Northern
Hemisphere. The aristocrats of the Confederacion are natives of
planets that were colonized by Brazilians or East Africans.

I think this universe was used in a couple of other Haldeman books,
too, but I can't remember specifics.

Roger Tait
... ihnp4!homxb!roger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 15:11 CST
From: David Meile <DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.LABMED.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Agents of Byzanttium NOT by Asimov

>Non-religious Orwell, (the same one who wrote the sacreligious
>Clergyman's Daughter) would definitely be interested in attacking
>anti-religious, or at least anti-Eastern Orthodox Asimov's
>Byzantine Empire for his innapropriate failure to discard his 20th
>Century Rationalistic biases in much the same manner...

The book being referred to here was not *written* by Asimov.  It is
one of the "Asimov Present's" line and was written by (if memory
serves me correctly) Harry Turtledove.  Don't complain about Asimov
for what he didn't write, though it's ok to complain about what he
*does* write. :-)

Dave Meile
davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
davidli@simvax.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 03:59:46 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Books in your future

A few things of interest from the September 11 edition of Publishers
Weekly.

Kurt Vonnegut's latest, "Bluebeard" is scheduled in October from
Delacore.  It's hardcover, with a signed, limited edition (I've
noted a definite trend from the major publishers towards doing their
own signed/limiteds rather than leaving that market to the
independents. Must be a good profit margin....). It'll be an
alternate at Book of the Month Club and a Main selection of the
Quality Paperback BC. [editorial note: if BOMC didn't pick up a
Vonnegut as a main selection, this is likely not a very good book.]

Both Comico and Marvel have ads pushing their graphic novels. Comico
is showing "Grendel: Devil by the Deed" by Matt Wagner with an intro
by Alan Moore; "Ginger Fox" by Baron and O'Connell; and "Night and
the Enemy" with story by Harlan Ellison and art by Ken Steacy.
Grendel and Ginger Fox in theory available now, the Ellison piece in
November.

For Marvel, the titles are: Killraven; Dracula; Moebuis: Upon a
Star; Moebius 2: Arzach; Star Slammers by Simonson; Frankenstein;
X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills; Marada the She-Wolf; Doctor Strange:
Shamball; The 'Nam; Raven Banner; and Conan the Barbarian: Conan the
Reaver. No details or publishing info, just the covers.

Finally, Doubleday has a double page ad pushing Raymond Feist's new
work, "Faerie Tale" which is an "epic horror" -- and they've been
putting ads leading up to this announcement for the past couple of
weeks, so there is some money behind this one. It's got a 150,000
first printing, an author tour, it's BOMC and QPCB featured
selection.

enjoy...

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 11:00:15 GMT
From: flee@gondor.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: The Falling Woman, by Pat Murphy; and "the New Fantasy"

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>I thought I'd put in a brash plug for a book that just hit
>paperback that I think is really neat. The title is "The Falling
>Woman" and it is by Pat Murphy, her second novel. It is a
>contemporary fantasy [...]

I just finished it and found it pretty neat.  Fantasy that isn't
earth-shattering.

Question.  Inside the cover quotes Lucius Shepard: "The Falling
Woman... exemplif[ies] what is best in the New Fantasy ..."

What is the New Fantasy?  Where did this term spring up from?  What
other New Fantasy books should I read?

I'd guess that New Fantasy would include Suzy McKee Charnas
(Dorothea_Dreams and The_Vampire_Tapestry), and maybe Shirley
Jackson (although she dates back to the 50's).  Who else?

Felix Lee
flee@gondor.psu.edu
{cbosgd,cmcl2}!psuvax1!gondor!flee

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 14:56:08 CDT
From: "Amy N. Verseman" <verseman@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS DIGEST

In answer to the person looking for fantasy, there was a short
series of books put out several years ago by Ballantine.  In that
group was one called "Lud-in-the-Mist" by Hope Mirlees.  If you can
find it, do so.  There was also one by Joy Chant, I think "Red
Moon,Black Mountain", but I may have the colors confused.  It is
more of a juvenile, but still well written, and there was at least
one sequel, the title of which escapes me right now.

A.Newell Verseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 14:56:08 CDT
From: "Amy N. Verseman" <verseman@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS DIGEST

Does anybody out there know the status of "Singer Among the
Nightingales", which would be the third in Parke Godwin and Marvin
Kaye's series which started from "The Masters of Solitude" and
continued with "Wintermind"?  I've been waiting so long as to give
up on it.  Maybe they just got sidetracked by other projects, but I
want to know what happens to the coven folk.

This is also an end of the world type story, but from a much later
perspective than most of the other books mentioned.  A thousand or
more years after war, invasion and the collapse of American society,
and the conflict between coveners(new magic users) and the people of
the old domed city who are finally brought into contact with each
other again.

A.Newell Verseman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 12:19:16 PDT (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk Titles and Authors Request
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

>Neuromancer     A++  (never to be equaled)

If it was the mind-machine interface part of Neuromancer that you
liked, then you'll love Vernor Vinge's "True Names", which, as far
as I'm concerned, is the progenitor of the "movement" (at least the
"cyber" part of it).

There is, of course, the "Mirrorshades" anthology, edited by Gibson
(or was it Sterling?)

As for the definition of "cyberpunk", I think it's become a
non-issue (just like "Are register windows a valid metric for
RISCness?").  Worse, I think it's become a marketing tactic.

William Gibson, John Shirley, Bruce Sterling, Rudy Rucker, Walter
John Williams (I liked "Knight Moves", but it isn't cyberpunk) are
the mainstays of the "movement".  John Shirley is the biggest
promoter (agitator is probably a better word) of the "movement" as a
movement.

Perry
caro.osbunorth@xerox.com
{decwrl,ucbvax}!xerox.com!caro.osbunorth

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 01:30:16 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu (Uncia Uncia)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk Titles and Authors Request

Dean Ing's future history trilogy "Systemic Shock", "Single Combat",
and "Wild Country" also have a decidedly "cyberpunk" feel to them.
Ing hasn't been mentioned in any of the discussions on cyberpunk, so
perhaps I am alone in thinking him part of this movement?

Michael Collier
University of New Mexico Computing Center
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
...!cmcl2!beta!hc!hi!charon!collier
...!ames!hc!hi!charon!collier

------------------------------

Date: 17 SEP 87 10:19-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: SF with computers (was Re: Cyberpunk).

Yep! Joseph H. Delaney and Marc Stiegler with _Valentina (Soul in
Sapphire)_. One of the most enjoyable books I've ever read. A MUST
for all programmers, hackers, "netters", computer games-players and
AI people.

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 15:52:41 GMT
From: cbmvax!grr@RUTGERS.EDU (George Robbins)
Subject: Re: Amber Books

maurice@xanth.UUCP (Dale Ross Maurice) writes:
> To all the Amber fans out there in fantasy land.  I was rummaging
> among the books at William and Mary College and found something
> that might be of interest.  I found the first five books of Amber
> in a two volume hardback set.  In the front cover of the second
> book it said something to the effect of : " these three books have
> already been published in a serialized form in a magazine called
> 'Galaxy' " (the first three books refering to the containment of
> the second volume of the set).

Galaxy died with the Sept/Oct 1979 issue.

In the mid to late 70's, Galaxy and the Worlds of IF were two
science fiction magazines published in alternating months by the
same publisher.  The two were combined, then later canned.  There
may have been one more issue that was only distributed to
subscribers, then there was one large format issue in a revivial
attempt by another publisher.

In my opinion, with exception of the last few (starwars 8-( ) issues
Galaxy and in its time, IF were the best of the contemporary SF
magazines, presenting a viewpoint distinct from both Analog and
F&SF.  A good assortment of material, also book reviews by Spider
Robinson (a reader's book reviewer) and some good serializations,
even if they did drag on forever with bimonthly issues.  Things
ended in the middle of a six-part serialization of Jem by Fred Pohl.

One of the things I'd really like to see out of the "CD-ROM
Revolution" would be the availability of magazine collections and
the like on CD-ROM.  With good scanner/OCR technology, this wouldn't
cost very much per issue.  Anybody know what kind of deal there is
between a place like University Microfilms and the publishers of
stuff they make available in microform?  Big bucks, little bucks?
Royalties?

George Robbins
uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!grr
fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 07:48 EDT
From: "Mad (@%#*) Hatter" <PMORRIS@wash-vax.bbn.com>
Subject: Worlds of If

Dear Net-readers,

   About a year ago I attended a convention from which I received a
copy of Worlds of If.  Every story I read in it were good, so I sent
in for a subscription.  The check has still not been cashed and I
have not received any issues.  Has this magazine (unfortunately)
folded, or was my letter/check lost?
   Thanks for any help,

Phillip Morris
BBN Laboratories
Arlington, VA
(703) 284-4630

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #405
Date: 17 Sep 87 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #405
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Sep 87 0852-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #405
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 405

Today's Topics:

     Miscellaneous - Nebula ignores Analog & What to Do If... &
                     Musings on Fantasy (3 msgs) &
                     History of SF (2 msgs) & Psi &
                     Dr. Seuss & Private Roads

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 August 1987 23:14:12 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Nebula ignores _Analog_

   Did anyone else notice that the Nebula award nominations this
year did not include a single story published in _Analog_?  Did
_Analog_ have an off year?  Not a chance.  _Analog_ published the
(far and away) best novella of the year: 'Eifelheim' by Michael
Flynn.  (If you haven't read it, find it!)  _Analog_ also serialized
one of the best novels of the year: _Marooned in Realtime_ by Vernor
Vinge.  While _Marooned_ might not be as universal a pick, I don't
see how any who read it could leave it out of their top five.
(Perhaps this point only reveals my bias: _Marooned_ was my personal
favorite from last year, with _Speaker for the Dead_ a close, but
recently fading second.)  A final argument against lack of quality
in _Analog_ is their strong showing in the Hugo nominations.
   So why was _Analog_ passed over for Nebula nominations?  Is it
possible that SF writers just do not read _Analog_ anymore?  All I
can offer is the following speculation: I've noticed far more
stories in _Analog_ displaying poor grammar, clumsy wording, or
lapses in point of view than in _IAsfm_, _Amazing, or _F&SF_.  To
me, these are small, technical things that don't affect my overall
appreciation of the story (although they are momentarily jarring,
and can occasionally be quite confusing, and should have been
excised by the editor).  But perhaps serious writers find them
intolerable.
   Any confirmation, disagreement, or other ideas?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Aug 87 19:23:02 GMT
From: cirrusl!steve@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF

   Many people think that the concepts and ideas that they read
about typical SF story are derived from the imagination of the
writer.  How do you know this?  Many of the things I have read about
would require an imagination that borders on mental illness.  Are
these writers producing autobiographies, thinly disguised as science
fiction?  Just in case, I present here a brief guide, to help you in
the event that something you have read about actually happens to
you.

                           What to do ...

1.  If you get a phone call from Mars.

   Speak slowly and be sure to enunciate your words properly.  Limit
   your vocabulary to simple words.  Try to determine if you are
   speaking to someone in a leadership capacity, or an ordinary
   citizen.

Q. What if he or she doesn't speak English?

   Hang up.  There's no sense in trying to learn Martian over the
   phone.  If your Martian really had something important to say to
   you, he or she would have taken the trouble to learn the language
   before calling.

2. If you get a phone call from Jupiter?

   Explain to your caller, politely but firmly, that being from
   Jupiter, he or she is not `life as we know it'.  Try to terminate
   the conversation as soon as possible.  It will not profit you.

3. If a starship, equipped with an FTL hyperdrive lands in your
   backyard?

   First of all, do not run after your camera.  You will not have
   any film.  Be polite.  Remember, if they have an FTL hyperdrive,
   they can probably vaporize you, should they find you to be rude.
   Direct them to the White House lawn, which is where they probably
   wanted to land, anyway.  A good road map should help.

4. If you wake up in the middle of the night, and discover that your
   closet contains an alternate dimension?

   Don't go in.  You almost certainly will not be able to get back,
   and alternate dimensions are almost never any fun. Remain calm
   and go back to bed.  Check your closet in the morning.  If it
   still contains an alternate dimension, nail it shut.

5. If reality disappears?

   Hope this one doesn't happen to you.  There is not much you can
   do about it.  It can be quite unpleasant.

6. If you meet an older version of yourself who has invented a time
   traveling machine, and has come from the future to meet you?

   Follow the books on this one.  Ask about the stock market and
   cash in.  Don't forget to invent a time traveling machine and
   visit your younger self before you die, or you will create a
   paradox.

   I hope this guide will be of help to you, should you find
yourself confronted with any of the situations described.  If
anything like the above should happen to you, get out your
typewriter, and crank out a story.

Steve
{hplabs}!oliveb!steve@cirrusl

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 87 20:15:35 GMT
From: logden@tc.fluke.com (Leonard Ogden)
Subject: Musings on Fantasy

Having been a fan of fantasy for years, I was pondering why this is
so.  Fantasy is so very different from SF in my mind, that it almost
seems paradoxical, that a person would enjoy both, (course, I read
westerns too! hmm)

Anyway, my reason for this post is to ask this question:

What part of fantasy do you enjoy most?

My answer is centered around the scenes of country/town/city
market/fairs. The people who attend and the activities that take
place there. My one complaint of the Lord Of The Rings (complain?!
how dare I!) is that there wasn't any fair scenes.

Oh, I like the scenes of derring do in dungeons alright. The
wandering across strange and interesting lands, but mostly I enjoy
the country fair.

If you have read an particularly interesting scene of a market or
fair, I'd be grateful for the pointer.

Len Ogden

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 00:12:56 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ism780!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce
From: Holloway)
Subject: Re: Musings on Fantasy

logden@tc.fluke.COM (Leonard Ogden) writes:
>If you have read an particularly interesting scene of a market or
>fair, I'd be gratefull for the pointer.

I don't know how interesting it is, but you might try "At Amberleaf
Fair", which is entirely set at an autumn festival.

Also, the early Thieves' World volumes often had stories centering
around the Market, though they gave that up in the great
Narrowing_of_the_Plot_Line. And Asprin's "Myth" series is set at the
Bazaar, an other-worldy marketplace.

There's an interesting fair scene in Vance's "Lyonesse", as well.

There are a lot more, but I can't think of the titles. Most were
short stories, anyhow.

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway *

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 21:56:36 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Musings on Fantasy

logden@tc.fluke.COM (Leonard Ogden) writes:

>What part of fantasy do you enjoy most?

No single part can really attract me, although I like magic.  The
best thing is a really meaty, well-developed world/history/mythos
for the the action to take place in.

>My answer is centered around the scenes of country/town/city
>market/fairs. The people who attend and the activities that take
>place there. My one complaint of the Lord Of The Rings (compaint?!
>how dare I!) is that there wasn't any fair scenes.

I have to disagree with that.  So far I've read "The Hobbit," "The
Fellowship of the Ring," and 3/4 of "The Two Towers."  So far, just
about every scene has been fair.  A few were good, a few were bad,
but most were just fair.  Oh, you didn't mean it that way?

>If you have read an particularly interesting scene of a market or
>fair, I'd be grateful for the pointer.

The "gather" on Pern is like a fair/market, and some of them get
described very well.  There is also a festival and quite a few court
celebrations in Katherine Kurtz's "Deryni" books.  And Joel
Rosenberg has thrown a couple of visits to a less glamourous
medeival-style marketplace into his "Guardians of the Flame" books.

Note also that these three series have my favorite element as well
as yours.  (Rosenberg isn't quite up there, but he's getting the
idea.)

Pete Granger
decvax!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 18:17:56 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: History of SF

jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) writes:
>From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>> Actually, there was a novel written by an ancient Greek that was
>> definitely science fiction. It includes a trip to the moon, and I
>> think there is extra-terrestrial life.  For the title, check
>> COSMOS, by Sagan.
>
> The only one I can remember being mentioned was a book called
> _Dreams_.  At least that is what the title meant.  It was written
> by Kepler(?sp) in the mid 1500's.  I remember this because
> Kepler's mother was accused of witchcraft and Kepler blamed
> himself.  In his story the hero was transported to the moon by a
> spell from his mother.  Kepler however believed that man would
> sail to the moon in ships that were adapted to the move in space,
> but he didn't think anyone would believe that.  In COSMOS, Carl
> Sagan says something to the effect that Kepler wrote the story to
> explane the moon and its relationship to the Earth.
>
> Is this the story you meant or is there another one I missed?

The story in question was by Lucian of Samothrace.  (That name isn't
Greek...probably a Latin transliteration of the original.)  Now I've
forgotten the title (:-{)..."A trip to the Moon"?  Or was that
Verne's?  Anyway, Lucian was a second century a.d. satirist.

Another early one is stuffed in the middle of Rostand's "Cyrano de
Bergerac", where Cyrano distracts a couple of characters by dropping
out of a tree with the tale of his recent trip to the moon and
return.

seh

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 06:29:11 GMT
From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: History of SF

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>> From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>> Actually, there was a novel written by an ancient Greek that was
>> definitely science fiction. It includes a trip to the moon, and I
>> think there is extra-terrestrial life.  For the title, check
>> COSMOS, by Sagan.
>
>The story in question was by Lucian of Samothrace.  (That name
>isn't Greek...probably a Latin transliteration of the original.)
>Now I've forgotten the title (:-{)..."A trip to the Moon"?  Or was
>that Verne's?  Anyway, Lucian was a second century a.d. satirist.

  Actually, his name was Lucian of Samosata, and he was a Syrian
Greek (Samosata is a city in Syria). He wrote a number of works that
are vague relatives of science fiction, most notably _The
Icaromenippus_, a satirical dialogue which features a trip to the
Moon, and the _True History_, a prose narrative which also has a
trip to the Moon, and to many another fantastic place.
  I don't think his works can honestly be called SF. They come from
the tradition of fantastic voyages, works like _The Odyssey_. They
differ from such in not being romances themselves, but satires of
such romances. They do not speculate; when Lucian writes of flying
to the Moon, it is because of its sheer *un*believability, a jab at
the many romances of his time which told tall stories as "true
histories". Before one can have SF, one must have the idea of
progress, the idea that things will become possible in the future
which are not possible in the present (my humble opinion). That idea
would not be born for many centuries after Lucian.
   I would say it's fair to count Lucian as a very early example of
one of the streams that later became the river of SF. His kinship
with Swift is clear, and much satirical SF owes him a debt. Think,
perhaps, of _Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_, as a related kind of
work.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!aurora!barry

------------------------------

Date: 10 Sep 87 18:24:29 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Psi

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@ai.ai.mit.edu>
>pyramid!amdahl!ames!elroy!jplgodo!wlbr!etn-rad!jru@Ucb-Vax.arpa
>(John Unekis) writes:
>> In order to gain even a modicum of credibility the psychics need
>> to measure some vary basic things about the forces they claim to
>> generate.  Strength of the field ... Source of Field ...
>> Propagation Speed
>
>Most advocates of psychic powers claim that it is somehow above
>such things - that it can work through grounded lead walls, back
>through time, etc etc.  They denigrate "single vision, and Newton's
>sleep".

In Frank Herbert's THE GODMAKERS, science and psi forces have
evolved to the point that you can measure psi forces and even
install amplification devices for the same.

>> here were a psychic force, and it ever was repeatably
>> demonstrated, I have a 'premonition' that the cadre of true
>> believers would, instead of studying advanced math and physics to
>> better understand the force, rather go on to look up faeries, or
>> the Bermuda trianlge, or something else that would allow them to
>> live in a fantasy world without concrete limits.

Give THE GODMAKERS a try and see what you think about Herbert's
treatment of psi as a measurable force in the universe.  He avoids
most of his usual heavy-handed philosophizing.

Alex Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 21:08:04 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: First sf

I hate to revive a dead topic, but last time I read this group (a
couple months ago), people were discussing the first sf they'd read;
and it just occurred to me that the first sf *I* read was probably
something like The Lorax, by Dr. Seuss.  I mean, think about it --
here's this weird little creature that lives inside trees and seems
to be some sort of nature elemental...  And all the weird creatures
(and plants, for that matter -- when was the last time you saw a
Truffula tree?) -- they're pretty alien life-forms...

Other possibilities:
The Cat in the Hat: well, there's this talking cat, see...
Horton Hears a Who: submicroscopic world and talking elephant
Green Eggs and Ham: what kind of normal Earth bird lays green eggs?
The 500 Hats of Bartholomew Cubbins: well, I guess this one is more
fantasy than science fiction, but still sf.

And so on.  It all depends on what you're willing to call sf.  (and
speaking of Dr. Seuss, anyone ever heard of a film called "The
10,000 fingers of Dr. T."?  I think I was told it was a Dr. Seuss
horror film, though I'm not sure.  e-mail responses, please.)

jed hartman
{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 12 Sep 87 21:12:35 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Private Roads

I recently heard that some group is trying to buy a long strip of
land from mid-Oregon to northern California to make a private road,
on which there will be no speed limit.  I think this is a great
concept for an sf story, and one which should be written quickly
(before it turns into reality).  Could laws be suspended on such a
road, to some extent?  Could people sign away their rights to be
able to use a road where the new (in real life, anyway) sport of
freeway gunnery could be practised at leisure, with no cops and no
speed limit and a lot of windy, twisty turns?  Could fast-food
places be set up somewhat like toll booths, so that you could
pre-order via car radio, then drive through and pay, thus reducing
the cost of using the road?  Does anyone know about this, and is
anyone interested?  If anything above gives anyone any ideas, please
feel free to write such a story (or do it in real life, or
something)...

jed hartman
{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #406
Date: 17 Sep 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #406
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Sep 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #406
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 406

Today's Topics:

             Television - Infiltrator & The Prisoner &
                          Star Cops (2 msgs) & 
                          Max Headroom (3 msgs) &
                          Starlost (6 msgs) & 
                          Doctor Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Aug 87 04:17:44 GMT
From: mimsy!prometheus!yendor!gmg@RUTGERS.EDU (Gary Godfrey)
Subject: Re: Infiltrator

gmark@ihuxv.ATT.COM (Stewart) writes:
> Did anyone out there happen to tape or catch a glimpse of the
> "Infiltrator" show that was on last Friday?  Have a tape?
> Wondering if it was entertaining at all, cheap, etc., but would
> like to check it out if at all possible.

   Yes - I caught the show.... I'm still not quite sure whether or
not I liked it.  It was kind of a combination between Terminator,
the Incredible Hulk, the Fly and pick-any-absurd-comedy-for-an-
example.  The characters were plastic, the premise bogus, the acting
barely tolerable, and the situation absurd.  After typing this, I've
come to the conclusion that I didn't like it (didn't give it any
thought till now).

Gary Godfrey
ACT, Reston, VA
Phone:          (703)471-9433
UUCP: seismo!mimsy!prometheus!yendor!gmg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 87 18:21:18 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: The Prisoner

If CHIMES OF BIG BEN was the 5th episode (according to the 6 of 1
list), why did the "Alternate" episode have all the different
material that everyone says it does?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 87 13:39 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: New Series

Over the summer, I had the honor (along with the rest of England) of
being able to watch a new TV series by the BBC.  Although it was
only 9 episodes long, and made with the usual miniscule budget, the
stories were some of the best I've seen in a long time.  The series
is (was) called Star Cops, and is about a british policeman assigned
to a new wing of the police force: the Star Cops.  If anyone else
has seen the series please comment, as I cannot remember the last
name of the protagonist.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 87 11:44:59 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: New Series

From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Over the summer, I had the honor (along with the rest of England)
>of being able to watch a new TV series by the BBC.  .......

It also got to the rest of Britain too, Why else would it be called
the BBC?

>seen in a long time.  The series is (was) called Star Cops, and is
>about a british policeman assigned to a new wing of the police
>force: the Star Cops.  If anyone else has seen the series please
>comment, as I cannot remember the last name of the protagonist.

You are thinking of Commander Nathan Spring played by David Calder.

See my previous postings on the subject.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 13 Sep 87 20:14:05 GMT
From: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Max Headroom

Well, it would appear that Max Headroom is back, since I see next
Saturday's episode is listed as "Season Premiere."  Does anyone know
how many new episodes have been made or have some plot sketches?

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!sdamos,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@sdamos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 14:35:59 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Max Headroom (The American Series)

Last season American viewers were treated to a slightly modified
version of the British Max Headroom series.  Now American television
has picked up the right to start producing our own Max Headroom
shows.  However, it was felt by whomever it is who has pull in these
matters, that the British plotlines were much too complex with too
many "extraneous" subplots (what does this say about the American
viewing audience as compared to the UK?), and so the American shows
will be "simpler".  I've got a bad feeling that it's going to become
just another TV action show with only slight SF overtones.  Oh well,
I've still got the first six episodes on tape...

Hal Pomeranz

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 19:11:16 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (T. Russell Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom (The American Series)

pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz) writes:
>Last season American viewers were treated to a slightly modified
>version of the British Max Headroom series.  Now American
>television has picked up the right to start producing our own Max
>Headroom shows.  However, it was felt by who- ever it is who has
>pull in these matters, that the British plotlines were much too
>complex with too many "extraneous" subplots (what does this say
>about the American viewing audience as compared to the UK?), and so
>the American shows will be "simpler".  I've got a bad feeling that
>it's going to become just an- other TV action show with only slight
>SF overtones.  Oh well, I've still got the first six episodes on
>tape...

Me, too.  When I first read that, although it did not do terribly
well in the ratings, they were going to bring it back with
simplified story- lines I was insulted as well as disappointed.
Perhaps I'm stupid:-), but I just didn't find the plots all that
complex.  In what way were they complex?  I suppose, unlike a lot of
shows, one had to watch from the beginning to the end and not miss a
portion while one went to the kitchen for a beer in order to catch
the whole plot.  I guess there are few people in America with the
patience or attention-span to handle hour-long programs...pathetic.

Timothy Russell Flanagan
reed!tim

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 15:07:13 GMT
From: gtchen@faline.bellcore.com (George T. Chen)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

Don't know why I'm posting this but...  out of the dark recesses of
my memory, I seem to remember that a side view of the ship went like

   ()==()==-_\
           ~-()-_
               ~-()==()==()==()==()==()==()==()

Also, I recall that to transverse the long corridors between pods,
they didn't have transporters but had anti-gravity passageways.
They would poise themselves at one end, jump, fly through the
corridor, and gently land at the other end.

gtchen@thumper.bellcore.com
gtchen@romeo.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 09:06:12 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
To: "David L. Kosenko[jar]" <dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.COM>
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

Ellison's screenplay for the pilot was titled "Phoenix Without
Ashes".  I occasionally see it in used paperback stores.  My copy
has a several-page essay by Ellison describing how the
powers-that-be ruined his work.  I'm not convinced: the novel wasn't
significantly different from my reccollection of the series.  Jim

------------------------------

Date: 14 Sep 87 21:35:55 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>Rough picture:
>
>     O O O O O O O O O O O O
>     |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
>   O-|_____________________|-O
>     | | | | | | | | | | | |
>     O O O O O O O O O O O O

This also looks a lot like the ship from "Earth II" which was a
(made-for-TV ?) movie in the early 70's.

It seems the series would have to have a fairly limited run, since
there were a finite number of pods to check out.  Unless they went
to a "Space: 1999" format: we can't leave the ship, but someone is
bound to drop in.

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87  22:16:16 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: The Starlost

The whole sordid story of this series, and how Harlan Ellison ended
up feeling compelled to remove his name from the thing, can be found
in Ellison's book "Shatterday."  Briefly, the producers took a tape
that Ellison had done pitching an SF idea and sold it to Canadian TV
without consulting him, then tried to force him to write the series
bible during a writer's strike (even pulling a scab when Ellison
refused), and finally threw a bunch of young Canadian scriptwriters
at him who had never even read, let alone written, SF.  The
producers were so desperate that they tried to enlist Robert
Silverberg to scab on the bible when Ellison would not, and when he
told them to go off themselves, they approached Gene Roddenberry for
help.  Roddenberry told them that Ellison would have done a good job
if they hadn't screwed him over, and then hung up.

The upshot of all this is that Ellison's pilot script was so
drastically re-written that he had the episode aired as by
"Cordwainer Bird."  The *original* script, not the one that aired
but Ellison's unaltered pilot, won the Writer's Guild award for Best
Dramatic Screenplay of the year, a feat Ellison compared to climbing
a manure heap to find a rose at the top.  It's quite a tale.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 87 17:30:16 EDT
From: jw@math.mit.edu
Subject: Starlost

I remember being very happy with "Starlost" when I was about 12 or
so (that would have been 1975). I was too young at the time to
figure out why it disappeared suddenly, and had no idea who Harlan
Ellison or Ben Bova were, or even who Keir Dullea was.

I also couldn't figure out why many of my friends did not remember
it; the fact that it was a Canadian production (news to me) might
have something to do with it; it got lots of publicity back home but
may have had a small US market.

I'd like to hear more reminiscences about the show; actually, I'd
like to watch it again! If anyone has a list of the episodes with
plot synopses, I'm sure a lot would come back. Possibly the CBC
could be of help with this.

It is interesting that while several people recalled the catch
phrase "collision course with a class G solar star," no one
mentioned the _truly_ memorable line from the show:

   "May I ... help you?"

   (The computer interfaced with humans over these big view screens,
   and whenever you sat down at a terminal, this large, friendly
   face appeared and asked "May I (slightly awkward pause) help
   you?")

I thought the show had the same sort of feel as "Logan's Run";
young, attractive guy (Keir Dullea instead of Michael York) drags
girlfriend around, staying one step ahead of pursuit (in "Starlost"
it was a love triangle back in the small town they all came from;
the first scene of the first episode is a wedding which is somehow
interrupted when the protagonist stumbles upon the way out of the
dome into the corridor of the ship.) Does anyone know if the show
predates or follows "Logan's Run" (1976)?

I don't remember much about the other episodes. I think one was set
in Greater Manchester, which was very pollution-choked, and very
different from the little-town dome in which the main characters
grew up (and everyone else aware of the nature of the Ark thinks of
as a real backwater). Another introduced a gang of young
street-urchins who were living in the corridors; this elicits gasps
of pity and horror because no one is supposed to live in the
corridors, only in the domes.

The world authority on "Starlost" must be out there somewhere....

Julian West
MIT mathematics

------------------------------

Date: 17 SEP 87 10:21-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Starlost

And how about _Starship_ by  Brian Aldiss????
How original this all is....

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 87 15:52:29 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Drew <CEU1102@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Dr Who new series.

   The new series of Dr.Who started here last Monday.  I will not
offer any opinions on the content or the performance of Sylvester
McCoy as the Doctor, merely point out a behind the scenes wrangle
which some readers may not know about.

   The show is broadcast here on BBC1 at 1935 on Monday, exactly at
the same time as Granada TV's soap "Coronation Street".  The latter
programme has been running for over 25 years and it is consistantly
the most popular programme on UK television.  Anything that gets
broadcast on opposing channels will not really get much of an
audience at all.  Many commentators here have seen this as an
attempt by BBC1 Programme Controller Michael Grade to show the
programme is unpopular and hence refuse to make any more.  Only time
will tell what will happen.

Drew

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 87 12:09:35 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Dr Who new series.

CEU1102@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK writes:
>.... Many commentators here have seen this as an attempt by BBC1
>Programme Controller Michael Grade to show the programme is
>unpopular and hence refuse to make any more.  Only time will tell
>what will happen.

Note that unpopularity is not a good enough reason to cancel a
series on BBC. "WOGAN" a three times a week chat show on in the same
time slot as the doctor, just on different days of the week, has
nosedived in the ratings after running continuously for three (or is
it four) years. Michael Grade likes WOGAN. It stays on. He makes no
secret of the fact that he doesn't like Dr Who. It is only because
of public pressure that it has stayed.

I think that the latest idea is to use up all the Doctor's
regenerations and kill him off once and for all.

Not that I think it is the real doctor. He went missing about the
time Peter Davidson appeared.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday 16 Sep 87 4:47 PM CT
From: Jacob Hugart <GWCHUGPG%UIAMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Doctor Who

I have some Doctor Who questions:

1. I know Ian Marter is dead, but how, when, and where did he die?
Doctor Who Monthly had a commemorative issue, but no information.

2. What are the official BBC names of the Trial of a Time Lord
season?  I believe they are constantly referred to as Story One,
Story Two, etc., but in DWM there have been titles mentioned: The
Mysterious Planet, Mindwarp, Terror of the Vervoids, The Ultimate
Foe, Trial of a Time Lord, etc.  The first two of the (three? four?)
stories I believe are called The Mysterious Planet and Mindwarp, but
the title of the final story (or two?) is vague.

3. What's the latest word on complete stories from Hartnell and
Troughton?  Has The Tenth Planet finally found its missing episode?
What's the status on Enemy of the World?  A list would be helpful;
here's what I have (on video-tape, at least - good old PBS cycling):

1st Season: 1963-1964
William Hartnell

An Unearthly Child      The Dead Planet     The Edge of Destruction
The Keys of Marinus     The Aztecs          The Sensorites

2nd Season: 1964-1965

Planet of the Giants    The Dalek Invasion of Earth
The Rescue              The Romans          The Web Planet
The Chase               The Time Meddler

3rd Season: 1965-1966

The Ark                 The Gunfighters     The War Machines

(The two Hartnell stories of Season 4 are, I believe, lost.  Pat
Troughton's stories from Seasons 4 and 5 are also gone. So:)

6th Season: 1968-1969
Patrick Troughton

The Dominators          The Mind Robber     The Krotons
The Seeds of Death      The War Games

Thanks much for any help.

Jacob Hugart
GWCHUGPG@UIAMVS.BITNET
Data Base Consulting Group,
Weeg Computing Center
University of Iowa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #407
Date: 21 Sep 87 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #407
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Sep 87 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #407
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 407

Today's Topics:

             Books - Story Requests Answered (7 msgs) &
                     Intelligent Suns (9 msgs) &
                     Author Correction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 14:51:47 GMT
From: mimsy!cvl!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J
From: Brennan)
Subject: Re: Title/Author Info

JAMES_A._DIODATO.WBST207V@Xerox.COM writes:
>I don't remember the title, but the characters which stick out in
>my mind: 1) a Chinese man by the name of "Wu".  2) a parrot (a
>shape changer) by the name of "Lil".  3) a "soldier of fortune"
>type by the name of "Horn" (I think).  The plot involved the hiring
>of Horn to assassinate the Galactic Emperor, whose Empire was
>connected by "Tubes" which provided instantaneous transportation
>between the planets of the empire.  The name "Trantor" (I may be
>using the wrong name but it sounds like it) sticks in my mind as
>the "man made planet (probably a dead moon or large asteroid)
>surrounded by metal which was the seat of empire" .

   This was an Ace Double, but I can't remember what it was
back-to-back with.  In any case, Lil was a sort of silicon creature,
Wu was an immortal manipulating all of mankind, Earth is dead, Horn
was indeed a mercenary, and you forgot to mention the Emperor's
daughter (or niece or something).

   I don't remember the title.  One notable thing about the Ace
Doubles was that the stories in them were pretty good as far as
adventures go, but not notable enough to make you remember the
titles.  It was probably something like "Revolt Against Empire" or
"Fall of the Galactic Empire."

   The plot, to further jog other people's memories, went something
like this:
   Earth has just been designated an historical landmark and a
ceremony involving all of the rulers of the Empire is to take place.
Horn is recruited to assassinate the Director (?).
   Horn meets Wu and Lil while attempting to get into position for
the assassination.  Wu later helps him kill the Director.
   Horn escapes through the newly opened Tube to the central planet
("All Tubes lead to _____."), meets Wu again, discovers plots among
those contesting for the newly opened position of Director, and is
finally captured.
   Horn is sent to the prison planet of no escape.  He escapes by
fomenting rebellion among the convicts.  Here he once again meets Wu
in the form of an imprisoned and famous genius.  The convicts all go
back to the central planet and group with the main Rebellion to take
over.  They succeed, of course.
   Wu is revealed to be immortal and the person writing the story,
at the end.  His purposes remain murky.

Jared J. Brennan
BITNET: INS_BJJB@JHUVMS, INS_BJJB@JHUNIX
ARPA: ins_bjjb%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA
UUCP: {allegra!hopkins,seismo!umcp-cs,ihnp4!whuxcc}!jhunix!ins_bjjb

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 17:17:35 GMT
From: cpf@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Not Louis Wu -- Oliver Wu!

The answer to the question about which book has the shape-changing
parrot is "Star Bridge", by Jack Williamson.  The name of the
Chinese who appears in it is Oliver Wu; the original poster
remembered it as Louis Wu, which sent everyone off on a wild goose
chase.  It is a pretty good "overthrow the empire" story, with a
twist to it.  The name of the hero is Horn; at the start of the book
he assassinates the head of the empire (for pay) (nice hero, isn't
he?).

This book was reprinted in paperback just a few years ago, so that
it should not be too hard to find a copy.

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 01:22:08 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Title/Author Info

From: "JAMES_A._DIODATO.WBST207V"@xerox.com
>This is my first letter/question directed to SF-Lovers.  I would
>like to find a book I once read eons ago (probably 20yrs?) which
>was a paperback.  I don't remember the title, but the characters
>which stick out in my mind: 1) a Chinese man by the name of "Wu".
>2) a parrot (a shape changer) by the name of "Lil".  3) a "soldier
>of fortune" type by the name of "Horn" (I think).  The plot
>involved the hiring of Horn to assassinate the Galactic Emperor,
>whose Empire was connected by "Tubes" which provided instantaneous
>transportation between the planets of the empire.

This wasn't easy, because I couldn't remember the title or author
either, but a bit of browsing in my Massive Paper Resource (a.k.a.
>1000 volume paperback S.F. library) located it:

   Star Bridge
   Jack Williamson and James E. Gunn
   Ace Books #D-169
   A Division of A. A. Wyn, Inc.
   23 West 47th Street, New York 36, N.Y.
   Copyright 1955 by the authors.

>   The name "Trantor" (I may be using the wrong name but it sounds
>like it) sticks in my mind as the "man made planet (probably a dead
>moon or large asteroid) surrounded by metal which was the seat of
>empire" .

This is the capital world in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.  Not
the same thing at all.

>If any of you out there in SF land remember this story, would you
>please answer my letter.

Yeah, I remembered it, but I went looking for it as The Web Between
the Worlds, which turned out to be another book all together.  The
old brain cells give out after a while, I fear.  ;-)

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 17:53:11 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!convex!infoswx!ctvax!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Richard Michael Todd)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

From: "Wm. L. Ranck" <RANCK%VTVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>   The story Jim is looking for I think is one by Isaac Asimov.  I
>remeber Louis Wu as a detective with a strong aversion to travel by
>vehicle.  I believe there is a series of these stories, but my
>memories are about 20 years old on this.  Perhaps one of the
>bibliogrophers of the SF-lovers group can fill in the details.

Close.  Asimov did write a series of stories about a detective with
a strong aversion to travel.  The detective's name was, I believe,
Wendell Urth.  The only story name I can remember is "The Singing
Bell", but I remember reading others in the series.
  Louis Wu is the name of the main character in Larry Niven's "There
is a Tide", _Ringworld_, and _Ringworld Engineers_.

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 09:02 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Name this short story

Finally I've succumbed to this intriguing game of getting you people
to help me find a story I read ages ago and would like to reread.

This one was a short story of the solipsistic variety: the universe
is really a figment of the imagination of one guy.  He doesn't
realize it, nor do most of the people in his world.  But there is
one governmental agency, something like the CIA, who know his
pivotal role and are dedicated to protecting him and keeping him
from finding out and/or changing the status quo.  As I recall, he
does figure it out and the universe dissolves, or some such ending.

Thanks in advance for any pointers.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 15:59:57 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Name this short story

From: Wahl.ES@xerox.com
>Finally I've succumbed to this intriguing game of getting you
>people to help me find a story I read ages ago and would like to
>reread.
>
>This one was a short story of the solipsistic variety: the universe
>is really a figment of the imagination of one guy.  He doesn't
>realize it, nor do most of the people in his world.  But there is
>one governmental agency, something like the CIA, who know his
>pivotal role and are dedicated to protecting him and keeping him
>from finding out and/or changing the status quo.  As I recall, he
>does figure it out and the universe dissolves, or some such ending.

"Them" by Robert Heinlein, available under two covers of the same
collection of short stories: "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathon
Hoag" (another weird tale in and of itself) and "6xH".

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 87 06:59:03 GMT
From: sds@fizban.fizban.mn.org (Steven Splinter)
Subject: Re: Name this short story

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
>This one was a short story of the solipsistic variety: the universe
>is really a figment of the imagination of one guy.  He doesn't
>realize it,

Hmm, I don't recall that story, but one like it (no name here,
either, but I'll start looking...) was that the man lived in a
society where insurance could never be refused to anyone.  Charge
any rates you want, but it MUST be available.  Anyway, this guy
tries to get life insurance, and the computers say no.  He tries to
find out why, and ends up finding out that he IS the universe, and
when he dies, it ends.  Thus, he can't have life insurance...

Sigh, maybe the description will help.

Steven D. Splinter
MECC Technical Services
(612) 481-3694
meccts!fizban!sds
sds@mecc.MN.ORG

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 14:03:19 GMT
From: gtchen@faline.bellcore.com (George T. Chen)
Subject: Intelligent Suns

>Greg Bear is also known for writing the most unbelievable Star Trek
>Novel : "Corona", which features, of all things, an intelligent
>sun. Wow!

I seem to remember reading several novels with intelligent
suns...something about how the interactions between particles in a
sun is equivalent to the interactions between neurons in our brain.
I think one novel (actually a short trilogy) was Star Quest although
I could be wrong.  What other stories had intelligent suns?

gtchen@thumper.bellcore.com
gtchen@romeo.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 02:03:13 GMT
From: aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

  Star Maker by Olaf Stapeldon had intelligent stars.  This was not
a big feature, nor was it explained "scientifically".  His point was
more the unity of nature, he found intelligence of some sort in all
kinds of things; sapient plant beings, gaseous nebula, etc.  Good
book, but less focused and more fuzzily mystical than his The Last
and First Men, which I liked better.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 03:49:01 GMT
From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

gtchen@faline.UUCP (George T. Chen) writes:
>I seem to remember reading several novels with intelligent
>suns...something about how the interactions between particles in a
>sun is equivalent to the interactions between neurons in out brain.
>I think one novel (actually a short trilogy) was Star Quest
>although I could be wrong.  What other stories had intelligent
>suns?

The "Starchild" trilogy by Frederik Pohl had some stuff about
intelligent suns/stars. One of the three, "Rogue Star," was mostly
about this topic.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@{mit-eddie.uucp, xx.lcs.mit.edu}

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 04:19:52 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

Much as I disapprove of the domination of sf-lovers by these
"stories about {sentient wombats, computers with green eyes,
genetically engineered netters}" threads, I would like to mention
that one of the chief elements of Sucharitkul's pleasant space opera
called "The Inquestor Trilogy" is the sentient sun, Shtoma.  Who
could ever forget the phrase, "Soul, renounce suffering, for you
have danced on the surface of the sun"?

Sucharitkul is a fun writer, though as usual fandom's low standards
are making him worse as he goes rather than better.  The books of
the Inquestor trilogy are:

The Light on the Sound
The Throne of Madness
The Darkling Wind

and there is a collection of related stories, "Utopia Hunters".

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 87 04:35:08 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

Regarding the question about other works with intelligent suns,
didn't Frank Herbert's "duology" of _Whipping Star_ and _The Dosadi
Experiment_ have beings called Calibans which manifested themselves
in the form of stars (suns)?

Kev
..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 87 23:59:46 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

I can't check at the moment, but I am pretty sure James Blish wrote
a short novel called _The Star Dwellers_ (I'm less sure I have the
title right) that delt with intelligent suns.  I also think it was a
juvenile and that it had a sequel.

William H. Ansley
csnet:  ansley@buffalo.csnet
uucp:   ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley
bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet, csdansle@sunyabvc
usmail: Computer Science Dept.
        226 Bell Hall
        SUNYAB, Buffalo, NY  14260

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 87 17:27:04 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Intelligent Suns

I can think of two (sort of):

Somtow Sucharatikul's "Inquestor Trilogy" (one of the later books, I
think...)

A short story by John Varley whose name I forget, but it's in his
"Picnic on Nearside" (formerly "The Barbie Murders") collection--
it's about smart black holes-- smart VICIOUS black holes...

Hal

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 18:14:54 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

>I seem to remember reading several novels with intelligent
>suns...something about how the interactions between particles in a
>sun is equivalent to the interactions between neurons in out brain.
>I think one novel (actually a short trilogy) was Star Quest
>although I could be wrong.  What other stories had intelligent
>suns?

An A.E. Van Vogt story, "Far Centaurus", had intelligent suns and a
"force" to drive them, the "delidicnader" force or something (I know
I haven't got it right).

Lousy story, a "gotcha" premise (the protagonists are too dumb to
remember that progress, like shit, happens), really shaky science;
the usual Van Vogt crap.

Scott Bayes

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 00:52:55 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ohlone!nelson@RUTGERS.EDU (Bron Nelson)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

> I seem to remember reading several novels with intelligent suns

Then there was the fairly awful book "Venus on the Half Shell" by
Kilgore Trout (really P.J. Farmer) which had living suns, though
whether intelligent or not was never known.  And it really had
nothing to do with what might charitably be refered to as the "plot"
anyway.

Bron Nelson
{ihnp4, lll-lcc!lll-tis}!ohlone!nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Sep 87 04:27:49 PDT
From: boyajian%akov75.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: MAROONED IN ORBIT author correction

From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
> Caidin's "Marrooned" is based upon the film, which in turn is
> based upon the book "Marrooned in Orbit" by Piere Boulle, who also
> wrote "Bridge over the River Kwai"...

Others have already pointed out that Caidin's MAROONED was the basis
for the film, not the other way around. But there is another piece
of misinformation that needs correcting.

MAROONED IN ORBIT is *not* by Pierre Boulle, but by Arthur W.
Ballou.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #408
Date: 21 Sep 87 0937-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #408
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Sep 87 0937-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #408
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 408

Today's Topics:

        Miscellaneous - WorldCon & History of SF (2 msgs) &
                        SF vs Fantasy (2 msgs) & 
                        Psi Powers (2 msgs) &
                        The Phantom of the Opera & FTL

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 SEP 87 08:43-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: WorldCon

This letter contains a few phrases for the Dutch SF fans, it's a
small advice to them, I hope they take it to heart. I wrote it in
Dutch, the advice won't mean anything to someone who's not Dutch or
Belgian

I would hereby like to thank everyone who voted in favour of The
Hague for the 1990 WorldCon. "Thanks a million, and I won't settle
for a percent less", to quote an ancient MGM movie.

I hope that everyone attending the WorldCon in 1990 will have a
great time, it will be held in the famous Congresgebouw. (Yes, the
same Congresgebouw Paul McCartney & Wings sing about in "Rock Show",
albeit that he mispronounces it).

I hope that the coming of WorldCon to the Netherlands will prove to
be a boost to SF in our country. And to all the Dutch people on
SF-LOVERS : Let's make sure that WorldCon 1990 becomes a success (
en hopelijk red dit de SF in Nederland van een wisse dood, want op
het ogenblik is het niet veels soeps meer luitjes!!! Daar moet
VEEEEL aan gedaan worden nog, we kunnen ons in 1990 natuurlijk geen
flater veroorloven!!!!!!)

I'm really looking forward to 1990!!!

Hurrah!!

Jacqueline Cote
BITNET : U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 09:04:17 EDT
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: history of sf: definitive?

I spent yesterday showing some German friends around Washington, DC,
and, inevitably, we wound up at the Smithsonian's Air and Space
Museum. There is an entire gallery there devoted to Spaceflight:
Fiction and Fact. As you walk in to this gallery, there is a model
of the Enterprise (NCC 1701) above your head. The model was used
during the filming of the Star Trek television series. Continuing on
in, the walls to the right are filled with drawing from the ancient
Chinese legend of a women getting some geese to fly her to the moon
to escape some unwanted lover. Next is pictures and brief blurbs
from sf stories by Godwin (1638) and Kepler (1643) and Cyrano de
Bergerac (also 17th century). Rounding a slight corner there is a
glass display case with books by Hugo Gernsbeck, 1884-1967,
"Regarded as the Father of Modern Science Fiction". Next are books
and pictures of stories by Jules Verne and HG Wells "two of the most
influential early Science Fiction authors".

The display goes on with Amazing Stories and other early SF
magazines, then Buck Rogers and assorted toys and posters and honest
to gosh real life balsa blasters.

That about ends the Fiction section. Continuing around the gallery's
corner there are early firecrackers and other exploding devices,
followed by early rocket engines and a display of "What is a
Rocket?". There is an audio display of the sounds of various rockets
firing (push this button to hear what a Saturn V sounds {sounded}
like, etc). Then, for some obscure reason, the display moves to
early pressure suits, and continues to modern spacesuits, with one
small display of spacesuits as depicted in fiction (Amazing Stories
and Buck Rogers again).

Having come full circle around the gallery, you walk back out under
the Enterprise and into the main exhibition hall. The display
depicting the Challenger accident and investigation is to your
immediate right.

Anyhow, what all this is about is, if the Smithsonian has anything
to say about it, or knows whereof they speak, Hugo Gernsbeck is the
father of modern SF!!!

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 22:15:29 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: history of sf: definitive?

ltsmith@mitre.arpa writes:
> Anyhow, what all this is about is, if the Smithsonian has anything
> to say about it, or knows whereof they speak, Hugo Gernsbeck is
> the father of modern SF!!!

I'd call it a defensible mistake. Yes, Gernsback started the ball
rolling with the fiction he printed in _Electrical_Experimenter_ way
back when, but Gernsbackian 'scientifiction' (stf) was *awful*
stuff. Horrible. Putrid.  Everything non-SF fans think SF is, and
worse.

I've read a lot of the 'best' of stf, out of antiquarian interest
(Forrest J.  Ackerman's _Gosh!_Wow!_Sense_Of_Wonder_ anthology,
available in pb, is a good place to start if you share my morbid
curiosity). Most of it took teeth-gritting effort to finish.

The title "father of modern SF" unquestionably belongs to John Wood
Campbell, editor of _Astounding_ (later, _Analog_) from 1938. Even
people in the field who disliked him and his ideas generally concede
this. Campbell trained Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Arthur C.
Clarke, Hal Clement, H. Beam Piper, Eric Frank Russell, and the
lion's share of the rest of the great luminaries of classic SF.

Despite opposing currents (the Futurians in the '40s and '50s, the
"New Wave" of the '60s and early '70s), JWC's influence still
dominates the theme and style of the most popular (and much of the
*best*) SF in a way that Hugo Gernsback ceased to do fifty years
ago.

Eric S. Raymond
UUCP:{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax!snark!eric
Post:  22 South Warren Avenue
       Malvern, PA 19355
Phone: (215)-296-5718

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 87 09:33:21 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: First sf

I agree that it's difficult to define what _is_ SF and what is not.
We'll never get a consensus on that one, but it might be fun hearing
what people think.

Here's one of my most basic rules:

Jed Hartman's Dr Seuss example stems from defining SF as anything
which deals with a world pretty much believed not to exist.  Such a
definition rules out Fantasy as a separate genus.  I differentiate
them by saying that both deal with non-existent worlds, but SF
attempts to present a world which COULD exist, according to the
state of our scientific knowledge and a minor bit of argument about
new developements.

Now, there are obvious problems with this.  One example is that many
reputable scientists have a problem with interstellar travel.  Well,
that's where the "willing suspension of disbelief" comes in.  I'm
not prepared to accept a world of multi-colored Earth-type animals
talking and living in harmony, but I am willing to accept a
scientific discovery that MAY be possible.  (Don't get me wrong: I
like Fantasy, I just don't call it SF.)  The point is that something
like STAR WARS (which is as much Fantasy as SF in many ways) at
least excuses the wonders of their universe as the products of
science, where most Fantasy just presents a fantastic world and
leaves it at that, or uses "Magic" to explain the differences.  A
few use radiation, but their results (elves, dwarves, etc.) are just
not feasible results of radiation as we know it.

An interesting side-effect of this is that, according to my
definition, Homer's THE ODYSSEY is SF!  Think about it: Odysseus
voyages out on a ship which actually exists in their day, on seas
which exist, and has adventures involving Gods and monsters galore.
The Gods, in Homer's day, were not even SF (they were considered to
be fact), and thus you might just call this a drama or adventure.
But several of the creatures he runs on along the way were not known
to the current mythos, but were perfectly believable by their
standards.  That makes it SF.  Compare the stories of Oddyseus to
the stories of James Kirk.  Taking into account what was considered
"Fact" about the world then and what is considered "Fact" about it
now, there is very little difference in the nature of the two
stories (except the ultimate goal of the two heroes).

Let's hear how some other people define SF, and (really the same
question) how they differientate it from other genera (fantasy,
horror, thriller, etc.).

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 87 05:54:25 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: First sf

From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
>The point is that something like STAR WARS (which is as much
>Fantasy as SF in many ways) at least excuses the wonders of their
>universe as the products of science, where most Fantasy just
>presents a fantastic world and leaves it at that, or uses "Magic"
>to explain the differences.

Star Wars does *not* excuse the wonders of their universe as the
products of science!! What is "The Force" then? It is nothing more
than the magic of fantasy, and Luke (our young apprentice wizard
(renamed "Jedi Knight")) who studies under some ancient master
(Obi-Wan Kenobi) to defeat the Dark Lord ("Darth Vader") against all
odds is your TYPICAL fantasy hero.

They even fight with *swords* fer gossake!!!

Kev
..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 10:11:17 EDT
From: Aaron Eisenfeld <aeisenfe@col.bbn.com>
Subject: Psi-powers

As I am relatively new to SF-LOVERS this may be an already exhausted
topic. But please bear with me. I really enjoy the use of mind or
psi powers in the fantasy/sf books that I have read. Some specific
examples that come to mind are Julian May's series _The Multicolored
Land_, a book by Orson Scott Card called _The Worthing Chronicle_,
and even (or should I say especially, since he is one of my favorite
authors) Stephen King's _Firestarter_. Is there anyone else out
there who enjoys reading about this sub-genre? Can anyone recommend
more books along this vein?

Thanks,

Aaron Eisenfeld
aeisenfel@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 17:22:47 GMT
From: hao!isis!csm9a!cschamau@RUTGERS.EDU (T AD)
Subject: Re: Psi-powers

Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels are good (at least I enjoy
them).

Connie Schamaun
Colorado School of Mines
...!hao!nbires!isis!csm9a!cschamau

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 87 23:48:59 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA

                        PHANTOM OF THE OPERA
                 A theatre review by Mark R. Leeper

     I review a lot of things and see or read a lot more.  It is not
all that unusual that I come away from some and consciously say that
it is the best of a certain class I have ever seen, read, or
whatever.  I thought that the remake of CAT PEOPLE was the best
shape-changer horror film I had ever seen.  But of course that is
the best of a small class.  It is far rarer that I would say
something is the best play.  But I will say that for me PHANTOM OF
THE OPERA was the best play.  By artistic merits alone AMADEUS was a
better play, I suppose, but PHANTOM OF THE OPERA was the most
enjoyable and even the most meaningful play.  It is a pot-boiler
melodrama based on a pot-boiler melodramatic novel and I loved it.
Sometimes even a pot-boiler can hit you squarely on target and you
are absolutely floored.  I hope Margaret Thatcher, who attended the
same performance as I did, enjoyed it as much.

     Contradicting a review I wrote earlier of the record, I now
concede that the play may be more faithful to the novel than the Lon
Chaney film.  It certainly reveals more of the Phantom's background
and tragedy.  The Phantom is shown to be the genius he was in the
Gaston Leroux novel and the victim of an unfeeling world.  The
Chaney film undercuts its own tragedy by making the Phantom a mad
escapee from Devil's Island.  That robs him of his power and gives
the power instead to the madness.  In fact, the Phantom is a
polymath, a genius of whatever he does who is robbed of the fruits
of his genius and at times was actually caged as an animal because
of his extreme ugliness.  After decades of being denied by humanity,
the Phantom finds and partially creates for himself a world where he
is all-powerful.  That was what gave the novel its power, but none
of the films built him up as the tragic polymath.  The play does.
On listening to the record I did not catch how much of the novel
really was translated to the stage for the play.  To fit as much of
the plot into a musical of all play forms is incredible.  They did
eliminate the Persian, who is a major character of the novel, and
many chapters from near the end of the novel, particularly those
involving the torture chamber scenes which are telescoped to a few
seconds on the stage, but I don't think the impact has really been
lost.

     Most of this could be told from the record.  What I could not
have expected is the brilliance of the set design.  When you are
first sitting in the theatre, the stage seems small.  What they do
with that tiny stage is hard to believe.  Many effects are
impressive but none so impressive as the descent to the lake below
the opera house (it really exists under the Paris Opera House, by
the way, and is used to buoy up the stage), which has to be seen to
be appreciated.  Less impressive is the falling chandelier, which is
much less convincing.  But the moment when you first see the Phantom
is a cold chill like nothing I remember seeing in any film or play.
PHANTOM OF THE OPERA is really a superb adaption of a story I have
loved for years.

     Now for a few minor quibbles.  Andrew Lloyd Webber's music is
spectacular as long as he is simply having his characters sing, but
he does some funny things when he is representing other composers'
music.  Presumably his song "Evergreen" is an aria from the opera
HANNIBAL by Chalumeu.  From the style of opera of the period, and
from what we do hear of the opera, it is clear that the song simply
would not fit in.  It is not of an operatic style and Webber did not
want to take a chance on his audiences not appreciating the beauty
of the operatic style.  Further it seems absurd that a musical
genius like the Phantom would write an opera in which the music is
just unappealing scales and with phrases like "Those who tangle with
Don Juan...."  That sounds like it came from a poverty-row Western
rather than an opera written by a musical genius.

     But I think the measure of how much the play was enjoyed by its
audience can be taken by the group I was with.  They paid 18 pounds
(about $30).  The scalpers were selling the same tickets for 75
pounds (about $125) and were selling out.  The group I saw the play
with were clamoring for us to get tickets for them at New York City
prices so that they could see it a second time.

     I'm looking forward to it.

     [PHANTOM OF THE OPERA starts previews on Broadway 01/09/88 and
opens on 01/26/88 in the Majestic Theater.]

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 22:31:43 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Life in Space, continued...
To: amdahl!drivax!macleod@AMES.ARPA

From: amdahl!drivax!macleod@AMES.ARPA  (MacLeod)
> I am currently writing a novel in which there is a mature,
> spacefaring mercantile civilization ... an individual from this
> race can purchase a state-of-the-art metallorganic FTL spacecraft
> implementing "magical" technologies for the equivalent of a few
> >hours< of labor.

Sounds good!  I will keep my eyes peeled for it.  Will it be
published under your own name?

Have you read _Marooned in Realtime_ by Vernor Vinge?  It is
something like what you describe.

> ... our technology cannot cope with FTL spacecraft any more than
> the bushmen's with cars.

I am not so sure that FTL is even possible, for any technology.  If
I were writing a book like this, I would try to avoid FTL.

And if FTL *WERE* possible, how do you know it wouldn't be easy?

There was a story in Analog, sorry but I forget when or where, about
a society with a 1600s techology that attempts to invade Earth,
using FTL spacecraft - the idea is that FTL is SIMPLE, but we just
haven't happened to stumble on the secret.

Keith

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #409
Date: 21 Sep 87 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #409
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Sep 87 1004-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #409
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 409

Today's Topics:

              Books - Asimov & Card (2 msgs) & Chant &
                      Cook (2 msgs) & Sharon Green &
                      Haldeman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 22:48:23 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Asimov
To: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU

From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
> One book that shows up in neither the Foundation series, nor in
> the Robots series, yet is (semi)crucial to understanding
> Foundation and Earth is my single favorite Science Fiction novel,
> Pebble in the Sky.

There are a LOT more books in this future history.  Actually, it
starts with _The End of Eternity_, procedes through _I, Robot_ and
the other robot stories, pauses at _The Caves of Steel_ and _The
Naked Sun_, jumps ahead to _The Robots of Dawn_ and _Robots and
Empire_ (?), then comes _Pebble in the Sky_, _The Stars Like Dust_,
and a couple others (I forget in which order), a short story whose
name I forget in which the only alien race is met (other than the
aliens in _The End of Eternity_), then comes _Foundation_,
_Foundation and Empire_, _Second Foundation_, _Foundation's Edge_,
and finally (?) _Foundation and Earth_.  I have probably left out
half of them.  They span a time from the 1930s to about 50,000 (?)
years from now.

The writing is somewhat ragged, since they were written, not in
order, over a span of about 40 years, and since some of them weren't
originally intended to be in the same future history as the others.
For instance, Asimov had to work real hard to remove a nuclear war
from the history of _Pebble in the Sky_ and _The Stars Like Dust_.
But they are a fun read, and someday I hope to read the WHOLE SERIES
from end to end, in order.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 16 September 1987 23:25:15 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: _Seventh Son_ by Orson Scott Card

In reading the recent collection of comments on Orson Scott Card's
_Seventh Son_ and _Wyrms_ it was interesting to see the diversity of
opinion on which novel of Card's was his best.  My personal favorite
is the first novel of his I read, _The Worthing Chronicle_ (I didn't
know it at the time, but I had already encountered Card in a short
story entitled 'Ender's Game').  I picked it up initially because it
had an interesting looking cover, but what hooked me was the excerpt
inside the front cover:
   Mother looked up at Father in awe.  'My elbow still hurts, where
   it struck the floor,' she said.  'It still hurts very much.'

   A hurt that lasted!  Who had heard of such a thing!  And when she
   lifted her arm, there was a raw and bleeding scrape on it.

   'Have I killed you?' asked Father, wonderingly.

   'No,' said Mother.  'I don't think so.'

   'Then why does it bleed?...'

Unfortunately, _The Worthing Chronicle_ and several other novels by
Card are out of print.  I've scoured used book stores and still
haven't been able to obtain copies of _Hot Sleep_ (part of the
Worthing Chronicle series) or _A Woman of Destiny_.  Hopefully, with
Card's recent success, some of his older novels will be reprinted.

However, even though _The Worthing Chronicle_ is my favorite Card
novel, I have to concur with Dan Tilque: _Hart's Hope_ is 'the best
thing he has written yet.'  But unlike Dan, I don't think I can
recommend _Hart's Hope_ to everyone.  From personal experience, I've
found that people either think it's substandard Card (the majority,
actually) or the best thing he's done.  A most dichotomizing book.
Card always seems to employ foreshadowing and symbolism, but he
takes these techniques furthest in _Hart's Hope_.  Of the two
techniques, foreshadowing is the more risky.  Failed symbolism can
just be ignored if the surface content is interesting enough.  But
failed foreshadowing eliminates suspense without providing the
reader anything else in return.  Successful foreshadowing creates
anticipation: the reader can't wait to find out how well the writer
will SHOW the reader what the writer has just indicated to the
reader (either cryptically or overtly) will/must happen.  Works that
successfully foreshadow can be read and appreciated many times,
unlike stories that depend on a suspenseful plot to maintain
interest.  My experience is that most of the people I know don't
even care for successful foreshadowing because they much prefer
suspenseful plots.  It's a matter of personal taste, I guess.  One
of my friends even thought that _Speaker for the Dead_ was ruined by
excessive foreshadowing.  I have to agree somewhat.  I tried to read
_Speaker_ a second time and only got through the first chapter.  A
fair amount of stuff isn't that interesting the second time through.
For example, my friend noted (in a review I posted a while back):
   'Of course we know all about Ender's past, so isn't it terribly
   tiresome to have his past discovered about half a dozen times by
   various characters throughout the story?  And worse, these
   discoveries do nothing to advance the plot, they're just there to
   fill each character's vacuum of knowledge.'
Still, in reading that first chapter of _Speaker, I did discover one
subtle prefiguration (perhaps so subtle that it isn't even there):
    In the morning Novinha walked with them to the gate in the high
   fence that separated the human city from the slopes leading up to
   the forest hills where the piggies lived.  Because Pipo and Libo
   were still trying to reassure each other that neither of them
   could have done any differently, Novinha walked on ahead and got
   to the gate first.  When the others arrived, she pointed to a
   patch of freshly cleared red earth only thirty meters or so up
   the gate.  'That's new,' she said.  'And there's something in
   it.'
     Pipo opened the gate, and Libo being younger ran on ahead to
   investigate.
     He stopped at the edge of the cleared patch and went completely
   rigid, staring down at whatever lay there (_Speaker for the
   Dead_, pp. 27-8).

This parallels the following passage from the Bible , especially
when one incorporates the traditional exegesis (which appears in
   brackets):
      Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark,
   Mary of Magdala went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been
   removed from the entrance.  So she came running to Simon Peter
   and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, 'They have
   taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have
   put him!'
     So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.  Both
   were running, but the other disciple <being younger> outran Peter
   and reached the tomb first.  He bent over and looked in at the
   strips of linen lying there but did not go in (John 20:1-5, NIV).

From this perspective, the passage from _Speaker_ becomes a
resurrection image.  Rooter will rise again (literally).  Indead,
Rooter is already alive, just as Jesus was at the time Mary went to
the tomb.

Tenuous?  Well, I have two supporting points.  First of all, I read
the passage from _Speaker_ to one of my friends, and he recognized
the parallel, too.  Second, Card has used even more blatant Biblical
parallels in the past.  For example:

      It was only then, in utter anguish, that Elijah wept.  Only
   then that he himself gave water to the world.  And as he cried,
   while his sons watched the awful fire, there came a cloud in the
   west, so small at first that a man's hand held out from his body
   could cover it (_The Worthing Chronicle_, p. 215).

      'Go and look toward the sea,' he told his servant.  And he
   went up and looked.
      'There is nothing there,' he said.
      Seven times Elijah said, 'Go back.'
      The seventh time the servant reported, 'A cloud as small as a
    man's hand is rising from the sea' (I Kings 18:43-4a NIV)

_Speaker for the Dead_ certainly had the potential to be the best
novel written by Card.  To me, it's the best science fiction story
he's written, because it's the only one so far that features
interesting science, rather than just employing the trappings of
science and science fiction.  I haven't gotten a copy of _Seventh
Son_ yet, but I didn't think 'Hatrack River' was that good because
there wasn't any significant inter- or intra- personal conflict in
the short story (maybe there is in the novel).  I am looking forward
to the novel containing 'Runaway' because that was a far more
thoughtful story.  Does anyone know if 'Eye for an Eye' or 'America'
also will re-appear in this series of novels?

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 20:59:00 GMT
From: hplabs!hplabsb!ishizaki@RUTGERS.EDU (Audrey Ishizaki)
Subject: Re: Re: _Seventh Son_ by Orson Scott Card

>Unfortunately, _The Worthing Chronicle_ and several other novels by
>Card are out of print.  I've scoured used book stores and still
>haven't been able to obtain copies of _Hot Sleep_ (part of the
>Worthing Chronicle series) or _A Woman of Destiny_.  Hopefully,
>with Card's recent success, some of his older novels will be
>reprinted.

I have both _Hot_Sleep_ and _A_Woman_of_Destiny_ (but not in front
of me).  HS is more than just part of the Worthing Chronicle series
-- it's more like Card rewrote HS as the Worthing Chronicle.  Many
of the same events are rewritten, or rewritten from a different
character's viewpoint.  I liked it, but I last read it so long ago,
I don't remember much more than that.

AWoD is VERY different from anything else he's written; it's not SF
it's more historical fantasy.  It's not clear how many of the
characters are Real People (many are, but I don't know enough about
Mormon history).  Basically the story is of the beginning of the
founding of the Mormon church via the eyes of a woman who plays a
part in its making.  It must have been good, or I would never have
finished it!  Imagine, I went to the science fiction bookstore, saw
a new Card novel, snatched it up, only to read a historical fantasy
about the the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith!

Good luck finding copies!

audrey ishizaki

------------------------------

From: abbott@dean.berkeley.edu (+Mark Abbott)
Subject: Joy Chant
Date: 16 Sep 87 22:04:39 GMT

verseman@ALMSA-1.ARPA writes:
>There was also one by Joy Chant, I think "Red Moon,Black Mountain",
>but I may have the colors confused.  It is more of a juvenile, but
>still well written, and there was at least on sequel, the title of
>which escapes me right now.

The sequel was "The Grey Mane of Morning".  If you enjoyed "Red
Moon, Black Mountain" you'll probably like TGMoM even better.  It is
less intended for a juvenile audience and, in my opinion, even
better written.  I enjoyed it very much.  Unfortunately, I believe
it is out of print.

Mark Abbott
abbott@dean.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!dean!abbott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 87 14:56:08 CDT
From: "Amy N. Verseman" <verseman@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: SF-LOVERS DIGEST

Someone posted a message not long ago about Glen Cook and his
tendency to use one large word over and over, ad nauseum, in a
particular book.  He is not the only one to do this.  And it is not
the only crime against the language perpetrated by some of the more
popular SF writers.  My husband argues with me that C. J.  Cherryh
is a great writer.  If I were judging her works on the short stories
alone, I would have to agree.  When it comes to her novels, and
Glen's, I have to strongly disagree.  The beauty of the English
language is that there is almost always more than one way to say
something.  There is the flowery, I have a bigger vocabulary than
you and feel compelled to teach you way, there is a way that says
'you too are an intelligent person and can figure out these words
from context or look a few words up, there is the way that assumes
the base reading level of an average reader to have stalled out in
the sixth grade, and so on and on.  In short stories, most people
tend to forget the 'teach' mode and just get on with telling the
tale.  I've never made through a whole Cherryh novel because it is
an irritant to have a vocabulary lesson on every page.  Words are
here to play with and learn, and if a writer can be unobtrusive in
slipping a few goodies every now and then, all the better.  If I
want a vocabulary lesson, I'll go to the dictionary and get one.

A.Newell Verseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Sep 87 05:26:07 PDT
From: boyajian%akov75.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: A Glen Cook Bibliography

From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
>   He may have some other short stuff out there that I don't know
> of, if you know of anything I haven't listed here let me know.

Well, some others:

"Song from a Forgotten Hill"    CLARION (ed. Robin Scott Wilson)
"Silverheels"                   WITCHCRAFT & SORCERY  (May 1971)
"And Dragons in the Sky"        CLARION II (ed. Robin Scott Wilson)
"Appointment in Samarkand"      WITCHCRAFT & SORCERY  (Nov 1972)
"The Nights of Dreadful Silence" FANTASTIC  (Sep 1973)
"The Devil's Tooth"             FANTASY & TERROR #5 (Spr 1974)
"In the Wind"                   TOMORROW TODAY (ed. George
                                   Zebrowski)   1975
"The Recruiter"                 AMAZING  (Mar 1977)
"The Seventh Fool"              F&SF  (Mar 1978)
"Ponce"                         AMAZING  (Nov 1978)
"Castle of Tears"               WHISPERS #13/14  (Oct 1979)
"Call for the Dead"             F&SF  (Jul 1980)
"Raker"                         F&SF  (Aug 1982)
"Darkwar"                       IASFM  (Mid-Dec 1982)
"Enemy Territory"               NIGHT VOYAGES #9  (Win/Spr 1983)

He also wrote a porno novel, THE LOVE ACADEMY, under the pseudonym
Greg Stevens.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 22:49:57 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Sharon Green

Sharon Green tends to write stories about characters who need a good
whack on the head.  Maybe that works - I read the whole Mida series
just to see if Jalav would learn SOMETHING - ANYTHING.  I would not
do it again however.  After sitting through 100's of pages of
capture and dominance games, the whole thing ends with the worst
deus ex machina I have ever read.  I gave her one more chance with
_Far Side of Forever_, same thing: a main character who needs a good
whack.  (Less sex though.)  Unless someone has some really nice
things to say aout her later, I'm giving up on SG.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

PS: Any one know whether she's the same Sharon Green you hear
credited on NPR's "All Things Considered" somtimes?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 16:04:37 GMT
From: xyzzy!goudreau@RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Goudreau)
Subject: Re: Brazilian sites (was Re: High altitude lauch sites)

roger@homxb.UUCP (R.TAIT) writes:
>Joe and Jack C. Haldeman, in _There_Is_No_Darkness_ talk about the
>Confederacion which is an interplanetary outgrowth of a Terran
>civilization that only took to space after the economic collapse of
>the Northern Hemisphere. The aristocrats of the Confederacion are
>natives of planets that were colonized by Brazilians or East
>Africans.

Actually, the two dominant languages of the Confederacion were
Pan-Swahili and Spanish; Brazil speaks Portuguese.  Also, the
collapse of the First and Second worlds was apparently more than
just economic, since _T_I_N_D_ has one of its episodes set in (I
believe) Oklahoma City, a port on the shore of the large nuclear
crater known as the Houston Sea.

Bob Goudreau
Data General Corp.
62 Alexander Drive
Research Triangle Park, NC  27709
(919) 248-6231
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #410
Date: 21 Sep 87 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #410
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Sep 87 1011-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #410
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 410

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (8 msgs) &
                                Neutronium (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 87 17:52:32 GMT
From: gatech!decvax!cwruecmp!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: "The Klingon Dictionary" by Marc Okrand

ACW@waikato.s4cc.symbolics.com writes:
>On the other hand, I like the linguistic evidence that the Klingons
>have been in space a long time.  There are one-syllable words for
>"spaceship", "transporter", "to take evasive action", and so on.

Actually, these are "clipped Klingon", or what John Ford called
Klingon Battle Language.  The idea is not that they were in space
for a long time, but that they had had wars for a long time, and
therefore used a "compressed" language and probably added to it as
necessary.  One probably learns quickly at the Klingon version of
the Academy (``Wrong!  The word is QIz!  Apply the Agonizer!''), so
it can have new words added to it quickly to describe new devices.

>It bothers me, somehow, that Klingons have uvulas.  In fact, it
>bothers me that the sound-system of Klingon is so Earthlike.
>(Those who only speak European languages will miss this point.)

Agreed.  It doesn't even seem to use the sounds that can be found on
Earth among the !Kung, etc., much less sounds _not_ to be found on
Earth.  But then, who does?  (And then again, how do you pronounce
them?)

One possibility is that it's ``Anglicized'' -- sounds are
represented by their closest equivalent English or English-like
sounds, since some/many of the actual sounds are unpronounceable and
hence indescribeable to speakers of English.  (The ``!K''
combination above -- ``!'' is used to represent a particular kind of
clicking sound -- is almost impossible for the majority of Americans
to pronounce.  The !Kung have no problems whatsoever with it.  And,
of course, pronunciations are described in terms of other known
pronunciations, so non-Earthly sounds can't be described very well.)

BTW, I'm not interested in any particular kind of languages, I'm
interested in language itself as a semantic vehicle.  "Contructed"
languages are rather interesting in this regard, when done right.

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}
   !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 SEP 87 09:44-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: ST : The Next Generation + general

Hi There!

Some part of this letter is a reply to a letter by David Rickel, who
had some bad news on ST : TNG (the departure of David Gerrold, the
possible resemblance of the "pilot" to "The Naked Time" etc). The
rest deals with ST in general.

Apparently no problems with BITNET addresses, since I received your
letter in one piece (albeit via a great many nodes).  Thanks for
your update on ST:TNG, I have a subscription to "The Official
Fanclub", but since this goes via a London bookshop and since the US
customs apparently are always either on strike, or looking for
drugs, we're about 4 months behind the rest of the world. My latest
copy is the April/May issue!  As for the new series (still sceduled
for Oct 3rd????), I'm afraid we don't get to see any af this in this
(censored) place, also letter-writing campaigns usually have little
or no effect over here. And I should know! Boy, how we tried!!! (I
live in The Netherlands) I agree with you on the fact that David
Gerrold's leaving is a bad omen, also, I feel that Gene Roddenberry
is the first person who should be aware of the disastrous effects of
"variations on a theme". I'm sure every one remembers "Star Trek :
The Motion Picture"!  Great idea about the bathrooms on the new
ship, though. They also included toilets in the new Pocket book :
"Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise".  Has any one read this one
yet??  As I've stated before (8-9-87), I'm new to this, and not
familiar with any of the topics you discuss.  Some topics I'm
interested in : the Star Trek books (Pocket, Bantam) and the
believability of some of the plots, especially with respect to
physics and astronomy (I'm an astronomer) With respect to the
latter: some of the things stated in the books/series/ movies is
quite *unbelievable*! Does anyone agree??

Jacqueline Cote
U00254@HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 11 SEP 87 10:48-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek and Science

Donald Lindsay writes :
>Bad Science. I call it the phaser Effect. You know - Captain Kirk
>zaps somebody, and the body vanishes, and the clothes vanish, but
>the deck is unmarked. Now, just how did the phaser bolt know where
>to stop etc.

I often wondered about that myself, but yesterday one possible
explanation suddenly errupted in my mind (Eureka). As for bodies
etc, the phaser bolt doesn't have to know where to stop. The
principle I refer to as known as "optical depth" (a phrase well
known to astrophysicists). All the radiation, directed at the
object, is absorbed by it. There simply is no radiation left to
leave the body at the other side, and hit an object behind the body.
The thing that has got me stumped, however, is where does the body
go?  On the screen it disappears, but something should remain (ashes
or something) ? When it is reduced to pure energy, then where does
that energy go? A human body is a lot of "pure energy" (remember
E=mc2).  If it evaporates, why don't we see any "vapors" (should
have great dramatic effect on the screen though, a nice puff was all
there was left of him.....)  Anyone any comments??? Or comments on
any other "scientific discrepancies" for that matter???

Jacqueline Cote
BITNET : U00254@HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 87 14:53:02 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Wrath of Khan music/Respighi

I was just listening to THE PINES OF ROME.  The 4th movement is "The
Pines of the Appian Way," and it represents an army marching down
the ancient road.  At the climax, I suddenly heard the trumpets
playing almost the same theme that we heard as the Enterprise
struggled to escape from the Genesis wave. Anybody else hear that,
or am I just crazy?

------------------------------

Date: 16 SEP 87 10:48-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek : The Firm - Star Trekkin'

Has any of you already heard of the No 1 UK hitsong by "The Firm".
They had a number 1 about two months ago with the blockbuster :
"Star Trekkin'" and yes.... this song does feature our heroes!!!  If
anyone's interested, I've got the lyrics. Rumour has it (from
someone in England) that the song text was stolen from some fans,
who sang the song on a ST convention awhile ago.

Greetings,

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: 17 SEP 87 14:09-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek : popgroup T'Pau

Hi fans!

Just a quick one : do you know that there is an English pop group
called T'Pau ?? They have a hit song called Heart and Soul.  The
contents of their songs, however, has nothing to do with Star Trek.

Jacqueline
U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: 18 SEP 87 11:38-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star trekkin' - The Firm

Hi fans!
As for the song, here goes....

Startrekkin'  -  The Firm
words & music by Lister/O'Connor
Reproduced without any permission what-so-ever!!!!

CHORUS :

Star trekkin' across the universe
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk
Star trekkin' across the universe
Boldly going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse

(lieutenant Uhura report)
There's Klingons on the starboard bow
Starboard bow starboard bow
There's Klingons on the starboard bow
Starboard bow Jim

(Analysis Mr Spock)
It's life Jim but not as we know it
Not as we know it not as we know it
It's life Jim but not as we know it
Not as we know it Captain

REPEAT UHURA VERSE

Star trekkin' across the universe
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk
Star trekkin' across the universe
Boldly going forward still can't find reverse

(medical update Dr McCoy):
It's worse than that he's dead Jim
Dead Jim dead Jim
It's worse than that he's dead Jim
Dead Jim dead

REPEAT SPOCK AND UHURA VERSE

(Starship Captain James T. Kirk)
Ah we come in peace shoot to kill
Shoot to kill shoot to kill
We come in peace shoot to kill
Shoot to kill men

REPEAT MCCOY AND SPOCK VERSES

There's Klingons on the starboard bow
Starboard bow starboard bow
Ther's Klingons on the starboard bow
Scrape them off Jim

Star trekkin' across the universe
On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk
Star trekkin' across the universe
Boldly going forward and things are getting worse

(Engine room Mr Scott)
Ye cannae change the laws of physics
Laws of physic laws of physic
Ye cannae change the laws of physics
Laws of physics Jim

Ah we come in peace shoot to kill
Shoot to kill shoot to kill
We come in peace shoot to kill
Scotty beam me up

REPEAT McCOY AND SPOCK VERSES

REPEAT CHORUS

Ye cannae change the script Jim
Och see you Jimmy
It's worse than that it's physics Jim
Bridge to engine room: warp factor nine
Och if I give her any more she'll blow Capt...         (Loud Boom JC)

REPEAT CHORUS TO FADE

The lyrics were copied from the POP magazine 'SMASH HITS',
accompanied by an article on 'Star Trek'. Info on the article came
from various British ST fanclubs, who were also mentioned in the
article. SMASH HITS usually tries to write 'funny' articles.  I
believe they have an American version also, called STAR HITS.  As
for the song : each character had his/her own voice, and pretty good
imitations they were too!!!  That's all for today folks!!

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 21 SEP 87 11:00-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: ST:TNG in Europe

IMPORTANT  ....    NEWSFLASH    .... IMPORTANT .... NEWSFLASH

Okay, Some good news and some bad news. The bad news first and it is
pretty bad (sort of)

ST:TNG will NOT be released in Europe prior to MARCH 1989 (yes
indeed 1989). This is what the company who does the distribution for
Europe has told the networks in Europe. So.... no ST:TNG for AT
LEAST 18 months, and since most networks plan months in advance,
most likely 2 years.

Well gang, that's the bad news. What are we going to do about it!
Does anyone out there know the NAME + ADDRESS of the people we may
contact about this outrage ? Who do we approach ? The distribution
company ? Our Gene personally ??? Anybody on the net who knows the
answer????

Also, are there any Europeans on the net who live in the vicinity of
an USAFE military base ??? They have their own Radio/TV network (AFN
= American Forces Network). Does anyone know if ST:TNG will be
broadcast on AFN - TV ???

OK. That's the bad news. Now the good news, although it's only good
news for those who live in The Netherlands or those people in
Germany and Belgian who can watch Dutch TV.

One of the Dutch networks, The TROS, has the first claim on the
series, meaning that they are the first ones who may buy it in March
1989. I received a letter from them, stating that they are fairly
certain that they will actually buy the series and broadcast it at
the earliest possible date. The above INFO (on the European release
date) I also obtained from them. They regret that they can't obtain
the series any sooner.

So, that's all the news for now. Be seeing you around the universe!

Greetings,

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 14:56:50 GMT
From: culdev1!drw@RUTGERS.EDU (Dale Worley)
Subject: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re: Bear
Subject: novel)

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes:
>brothers@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu writes:
>>The destruction of the Earth is accomplished by dropping large
>>clumps of neutronium and antineutronium to orbit around each other
>>under the Earth's surface until their orbits decay with a
>>resulting massive explosion.
>
> This is very funny.  For one, the real matter in the earth's
> atmosphere, crust, etc. would cause, uh, large explosions when in
> contact with the anti-neutronium - the a-n ball would probably
> never reach the surface,

Even better: The antineutronium ball might generate enough explosive
power under itself to be blasted away from the Earth!

Also, what keeps these lumps together?  If it's gravity, the ball of
neutronium must be able to accrete ordinary matter at high speed --
the Earth would be a neutron star in hours.

Dale

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 87 13:30:03 GMT
From: umix!itivax!crlt!russ@RUTGERS.EDU (Russ Cage)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re:
Subject: Bear novel)

drw@culdev1.UUCP (Dale Worley) writes:
>Also, what keeps these lumps together?  If it's gravity, the ball
>of neutronium must be able to accrete ordinary matter at high speed
>-- the Earth would be a neutron star in hours.

I've read that a neutronium lump, even a large one, would beta-decay
to protons in short order unless it were *very* large (star-sized).
The reason that neutron stars are stable is that they are so large
and highly compressed that there are no quantum states available for
any electrons emitted from beta decays to go into; without an
available state, the decay does not occur.  Nothing less than the
mass of a star is big enough for this inhibitory effect to work.

A neutronium lump hitting the earth would punch right through the
atmosphere and crust, decaying madly into protons and electrons all
the way with a half-life of 13 minutes.  Something a foot in
diameter probably wouldn't even make a very big crater, though it
would mass more than mountains.  The local tidal effects would be
large...  The effects of billions or trillions of tons of hydrogen
left behind, and the beta-decay energy, might make for interesting
times as well.  (I suppose one could use such means to make a
geologically dead planet active again; deposit lots of heat in the
core.  Mars could use this.)

I would hope that an anti-neutronium sphere would be blown away upon
contact with the atmosphere, but consider the pressures required to
push *neutronium* around and ask if we'd have any atmosphere left.
If it penetrated the crust, it might well break the planet into
pieces unless it was very small.  If any such event occurred, it
would be good to be elsewhere at the time... ticket to Ceres,
one-way, thanks.  ;-)

Russ Cage
Robust Software Inc.
ihnp4!itivax![m-net!rsi,crlt!russ]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #411
Date: 21 Sep 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #411
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Sep 87 1026-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #411
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 411

Today's Topics:

               Books - Ellison (5 msgs) & Heinlein &
                       Kay (2 msgs) & Lovecraft (2 msgs) &
                       Sagan & Tolkien & Van Vogt &
                       Private Roads

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 13:47:47 GMT
From: cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag)
Subject: Harlan Ellison

Does anyone have a list of the titles/publishers of Harlan Ellison's
books?  If you do, could you please mail it to me?  If anyone else
wants a copy, also e-mail me, and if I get something I'll pass it on
to you.

Does anyone know if any of Ellison's books are in print, and also if
that rumored last edition of the _Dangerous_Visions_ series is due
out sometime soon?

Thanks.

Christopher Maag
cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
{seismo|ucbvax|harvard|rutgers!ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!cmaag

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 19:42:14 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison

>Does anyone know if any of Ellison's books are in print, and also
>if that rumored last edition of the _Dangerous_Visions_ series is
>due out sometime soon?

I don't have a current in-print list, but many of them are not.
Sigh.

The Final Dangerous Visions had still not gone to the publisher
(despite Locus reports that it would be going to the publisher a
year ago last august). Rumors has it that whenever someone asks
Ellison about this, he foams at the mouth. (The only quote I've seen
can be paraphrased as "whenever I damn well get it done" but isn't
nearly so printable).

If it went to publisher tomorrow, it wouldn't see print for at least
a year, and probably between 18 months and two years, due to the
size of the thing.

On a more positive note, "The Essential Ellison" has come out from
nemo press. It's huge (like 3.5 inches) in hardback, and contains a
lot of Ellison's earlier non-fiction. I keep trying to find time to
start it, so I can't comment on content yet.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 20:46:13 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison

cmaag@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Christopher N Maag) writes:
> Does anyone have a list of the titles/publishers of Harlan
> Ellison's books?

Well, no, I don't, but I thought I'd mention that THE ESSENTIAL
ELLISON is out in hardback. This is a collection of Ellison's work
which almost functions as a biography (it even contains a picture of
Harlan when he was in the sixth grade!), and I heartily recommend it
to all.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 06:26:26 GMT
From: tyg@eddie.mit.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison

Alas, most of Harlan's work is not currently in print; about the
only thing that is is Essential Ellison (which is excellent, and in
addition to the photo of Harlan at age 11, include a picture of his
dog, an interesting picture of a former girlfriend, his first
published fiction from when he was 15 with his original
illustrations, and a hell of a lot of good writing), but which is
availble only from Nemo Press and specialty stores.

As for Last Dangerous Visions, well, it does exist. I've even seen
the manuscripts for it (last I saw, piled up on the bannister around
the upstairs office). But don't count on it being out anytime soon.
As of last month, it was nowhere near ready to be turned in, and as
Chuq said, it'd take at least a year. Btw, it'll probably be
multi-volume, even in hardback.

Harlan is currently working on a TV pilot called Cutter's World, and
will also be scripting the remake of Sheckley's 10th Victim (and
Ursula Andress will *not* appear in this one!).

Oh, another thing which is due out relatively soon is a collection
of his Watching columns from F&SF.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 05:31:05 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L.
From: Carlock)
Subject: Re: Private Roads

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>Could laws be suspended on such a road, to some extent?
>
>Can you imagine the liability insurance rates?
>
>Of course, this story has already been written. Ellison (I think it
>was Ellison) did it years ago...

The story is indeed by Ellison, and is called "Along the Scenic
Route".

In this story, high-speed highway duels are commonplace to the point
of being sanctioned and regulated by the government.  The
protagonist of the story is a man who has fixed up the family
station wagon (or whatever) with laser cannon, machine guns and
whatnot.  This is in defense against "snot-nosed kids" in similarly
equipped hot rods, who always seem to be giving decent folks (like
him) a hard time on the road.  (Apparently, in this scenario, you
can have such devices installed in your car at the equivalent of the
local "Grand Auto" store.)

I began thinking about this story a lot after all these news items
concerning freeway Rambo-ism in L.A. began surfacing.  Prophecy?

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.UUCP
University of Nevada - Reno

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 00:25:12 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Being a real Heinlein-maniac, I have long been wanting the answer
>to two questions about his books.
>
>Question #2: His best novel, and indeed the best SF-novel I have
>ever read, is 'The Number Of The Beast'. Only problem is, no matter
>how many times I reread the darn thing, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE
>ENDING!  I am talking about part 4, L'envoi, specifically about
>what happens in the last few pages, What It Means, what happens
>when the forest ranger creature suddenly appears, what the purpose
>of the convention really was. I just don't get it.  Am I missing
>some subtle reference (Lord knows he put in plenty of those!) or am
>I trying to find Meaning in something that has none or am I just
>plain Stupid?

Have heart, you're not stupid.  TNOTB is probably the worst thing
that Heinlein has written (I won't say *the* worst because I am
still avoiding his latest blunder).

Heinlein's quite a guy but suffers from medical problems that affect
his brain (seriously, he had/has some sort of bloodclot or
something).  There was a long Heinlein hiatus between
_Time_Enough_For_Love_ and TNOTB.  In fact, I still remember book
cover blurbs calling TEFL "the capstone of a great career".
Everything the man has written since TEFL has been, well . . .
strange.  Yes, the old master still shines through in parts of
_Friday_, _Job_ and the first part _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls,
but let's face it, the man is through.

I too am a Heinlein fanatic having read every piece of his science
fiction that I could.  It would be nice if the man could go on
forever, but he's just not Lazarus Long.  All good things must come
to an end.

Darren Leigh
362 Memorial Dr.
Cambridge, MA 02139
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 87 13:05:45 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: The Fionavar Tapestry

I haven't seen any discussion yet of THE SUMMER TREE and THE
WANDERING FIRE.  Just to kick it off, I'd like to argue the
"Tolkienesque" description that keeps showing up on the book covers.
To me, it looked more like a cross between Thomas Covenant and
Amber.  It has the malevolent winter, the powers out of time, and
the wild magic from the TC books, and the walking between worlds,
with Fionavar as the Amber analogue from that series. Not to say
that the books are at all derivative--they are very original, and
Guy Gavriel Kay's style is very easy to read. On the -4 to +4 scale
(with LotR as 5), the series so far is a definite +4. (I am only
about 3/4 of the way through TWF, but I except the rating to hold.)

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 06:34:19 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: The Fionavar Tapestry

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I haven't seen any discussion yet of THE SUMMER TREE and THE
>WANDERING FIRE.

The series is now complete - _The_Longest_Road_ was released in
hardback a couple of months ago.

>Just to kick it off, I'd like to argue the "Tolkienesque"
>description that keeps showing up on the book covers. To me, it
>looked more like a cross between Thomas Covenant and Amber.

Well, I found it very Tolkienesque - much more so than
Donaldsonesque, Zelaznyesque or any other 'esque.  There is (as you
say) the maelific bad guy, the damsel in distress, the etc. etc..
Fortunately, that's not all there is.  G. G. Kay's trilogy is full
of the more somber emotions - a kind of dramatic prose, every
character's feelings are slightly larger than life.  This is a real
'epic' fantasy, where epic implies the scope of the work, not the
number of pages.

>To me, it looked more like a cross between Thomas Covenant and
>Amber.

There are similarities between Donaldson's Earthpower and Kay's
Avarlith, but that's as far as it goes.  The styles are entirely
dissimilar.  And there is no 'walking' between worlds as in Amber.
They travel between Fionovar and Earth twice, with tremendous effort
- hardly the godlike ease with which Amberites move about.  The
characters are also much more real than Donaldson's or those in
Zelazny's Amber.

>On the -4 to +4 scale (with LotR as 5), the series so far is a
>definite +4. (I am only about 3/4 of the way through TWF, but I
>except the rating to hold.)

I, too, would put it at a +4, but then that's where I'd put Tolkien,
too.  The Illiad is off the scale at +5, but certainly not Tolkien.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 17-Sep-1987 1327
From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Hastur

I have read all of the Lovecraft stories that were published in the
latest releases from Del Rey in paperback a few years ago.  I found
no mention whatsoever of Hastur, and I was specifically looking for
it.  Does anybody have the title of the Lovecraft story or stories
where Hastur is mentioned (or mentioned as unmentionable)?  Or does
Hastur only appear in the "posthumous collaberations" that Derleth
did?

PSW

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 23:44:49 GMT
From: archer@elysium.sgi.com (Archer Sully)
Subject: Re: Hastur

From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Paul S. Winalski)
> I have read all of the Lovecraft stories that were published in
> the latest releases from Del Rey in paperback a few years ago.  I
> found no mention whatsoever of Hastur, and I was specifically
> looking for it.  Does anybody have the title of the Lovecraft
> story or stories where Hastur is mentioned (or mentioned as
> unmentionable)?  Or does Hastur only appear in the "posthumous
> collaberations" that Derleth did?

It's been a long time since I've read any Lovecraft, but wasn't
Has..., uh, I mean, 'He who is not to be named' mentioned in
'The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath'?  Regardless, I'm quite
sure that he is a Lovecraft invention and not a Derleth.

DelRay didn't even reprint all of the Cthulhu stories, as far as I
know, so if you didn't see it, don't give up.

Archer Sully
archer@sgi.com
{ucbvax,sun,pyramid,ames,decwrl}!sgi!archer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 87 14:18 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Carl's "Contact"

I read "Contact" a few days ago.  As usual with Carl Sagan's
writing, the ideas are solid, the execution is weak.  What really
irked me about the book was the dustjacket copy that informed me
that this was no mere "Science Fiction" novel,but a genuine NOVEL.
Wowsers, you mean all of those previous books were mere stories, eh?
This reminded me of when the comic-book "Elfquest" proclaimed itself
'not a comic-book'.  It's a vainglorious attempt that cheapens the
medium and looks pretentious.  The truth is that "Contact" is SF,
and second-rate stuff at that.  It presented the same old tired
notions that Carl Sagan and other science worshipers have been
foisting off on us for years.  The occasional references to mirror
fugues and "Alice in Wonderland" are the bread and butter of the
pretentious side of the science press.  The same boring ideas that
characterize all of the books from the "Godel, Escher, Bach" - "Tao
of Physics" set.  *yawn*.  I read "Contact" right after reading PKDs
"The Man in the High Castle", and if Sagan really thinks that he is
going to reach beyond the conventions of "mere" SF, he's got a lot
of stretching to go.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 16:13 PDT
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: tolkien name query revealed

   I was under the impression the statement that Tolkien used a West
Virginia telephone book for names in the Hobbit was an April Fools
Joke.  This April Fools Joke worked pretty good since it's now
September.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 87 23:59:03 GMT
From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) writes:
>An A.E. Van Vogt story, "Far Centaurus", had intelligent suns and a
>"force" to drive them, the "delidicnader" force or something (I
>know I haven't got it right).

Wasn't "Far Centaurus" the story about the crew of a
slower-then-light exploration ship sent to Alpha Centaur? The crew
(of about 4) slept most of the way, though they were awakened at
several points during the journey.  Only one was awake at once. 1 or
2 died en route, and the main character noticed a large explosion
outside during one of his waking periods.  By the time they reached
their destination, Earth had discovered an FTL drive and gotten
there first, and they are greeted as archaic relics by the
inhabitants. The explosion was some kind of tourist liner or
something which came too close and got its drive messed up,
destroying it.

Is this "Far Centaurus" or something else?

Larry Keber

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 87 09:43:39 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Private Roads

Jed Hartman writes:
> I think this is a great concept for an sf story, and one which
> should be written quickly (before it turns into reality).  Could
> laws be suspended on such a road, to some extent?  Could people
> sign away their rights to be able to use a road where the new (in
> real life, anyway) sport of freeway gunnery could be practised at
> leisure, with no cops and no speed limit and a lot of windy,
> twisty turns?  Does anyone know about this, and is anyone
> interested?

Two stories were written by Larry Niven which approach parts of that
he describes:

"Cloak of Anarchy" deals with a case where internal combustion
engines have been outlawed, and the San Diego Freeway has been
turned into a free park, where no laws hold except to forbit
assaulting another (you can even build and operate an internal
combustion engine if you want to).

The other story deals (incidentally) more with the idea of a lawless
automobile road.  I believe it was "Neutron Star".  The hero visits
an eccentric rich person and, before they go off to explore a
neutron star, they stop off at a defunct freeway (Niven didn't say
that combustion was illegal in this story, but automobiles have gone
the way of the dinosaur in the face of more efficient people-moving
technology: It's possible that these two stories are in the same
unverse [many of Niven's are, but he has at least two "universes"]).
Rich people have renovated the freeway and a bunch of automobiles so
that they can race around for the fun of it.

Jim

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #412
Date: 22 Sep 87 0824-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #412
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Sep 87 0824-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #412
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 412

Today's Topics:

            Books - Card (2 msgs) & LeGuin & Lovecraft &
                    McCaffrey & Moorcock & Tepper (2 msgs) &
                    Zelazny (8 msgs) & Recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: artecon.artecon!macbeth@RUTGERS.EDU (Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Re: _Seventh Son_ by Orson Scott Card
Date: 21 Sep 87 22:49:47 GMT

ishizaki@hplabsb.UUCP (Audrey Ishizaki) writes:
>AWoD is VERY different from anything else he's written; it's not SF
>it's more historical fantasy.  It's not clear how many of the
>characters are Real People (many are, but I don't know enough about
>Mormon history).  Basically the story is of the beginning of the
>founding of the Mormon church via the eyes of a woman who plays a
>part in its making.  It must have been good, or I would never have
>finished it!  Imagine, I went to the science fiction bookstore, saw
>a new Card novel, snatched it up, only to read a historical fantasy
>about the the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith!

Now you've piqued my curiosity, seeing as how most of LDS (aka
Mormon) doctrine _is_ historical fantasy. I'll be very interested to
see if it measures up to the re-write ol' Joseph did on the Bible.

Thanks for the lead.

David Macy-Beckwith
Artecon, Inc.
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!hp-sdd!artecon!macbeth

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 17:49:51 GMT
From: rph@nancy (Richard Hughey)
Subject: SONGMASTER, O. S. Card

Another Card novel is out, this one about a Songmaster, taken (so
the notes say) from several previous novellas.  The copyright dates
(all 5) are rather confusing, and this may be an old novel for some
of you.

It's quite fun, but very much the same as Ender's game with a
different setting (child genius etc...).  Guess he's a writer about
children much the same way Zelazny is a writer about gods.  (And I
like both of them very much).

The publication date is October, so it may not be everywhere yet.

Richard Hughey
Brown University
CSNET:  rph%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net
BITNET:  rph@browncs
(decvax, ihnp4, allegra)!brunix!rph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 16:26 N
From: <RCST5%HEITHE5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: A request

Has anyone out there got a list of books/stories published by Ursula
LeGuin?  Thanks in advance!

Peter Berck
RCST5 @ HEITHE5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 16:07:45 GMT
From: cje@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ernst @ Sanctum Sanctorum)
Subject: Re: where was "Hastur" 1st mentioned in HPL?

I'll have to check my sources at home, but I believe Hastur was
referred to in "The Whisperer in Darkness".

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {allegra, seismo, ihnp4}!topaz!cje
ARPA: JAROCHA-ERNST@BLUE.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 21:04:37 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Scenes of markets and fairs

Check out THE DRAGONRIDERS OF PERN and THE HARPER HALL OF PERN. Two
or more of these books have "Gathers." And MORETA, now that I think
about it....

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 11:29:00 EDT
From: "ETD1::LABOVITZ" <labovitz%etd1.decnet@afwal-aaa.arpa>
Subject: Re: received replys to Hawkmoon request

> The following is the synopsis of the books in the Eternal Champion
> series of which Hawkmoon is part......

While that list included most of the well-known Eternal Champion
stories, there are a few more incarnations that were not listed:

Michael Kane

1. City of the Beast
2. Lord of the Spiders
3. Masters of the Pit

Konrad Arflane

The Ice Schooner   (is there another Arflane book???)

Karl Glogauer

Breakfast in the Ruins    (these two are not in any particular order)
Behold The Man

Renark

The Blood Red Game

And, as was mentioned in a recent SFLD, Jerry Cornelius appears
under the identity of Jerry Cornell in _The_Chinese_Agent_.

LT Stu Labovitz
LabovitzSL@Afwal-aaa.ARPA
Labovitz%Etd1.DECNET@Afwal-aaa.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 14:46 PDT
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: Sheri Tepper's latest

   This is a rash inspired message (since I just finished the book
less than a minute ago).  It is to say Sheri Tepper is a must author
to check out.  Her new Duology (really one big book split in two),
Northshore and Southshore were great.  With a cast of many - ready
to confuse the reader if read over a long time. If read somewhat
quickly (less than a week for me), then it should be OK and the
mystery of "what the heck am I reading?" is rewarded.
   The books are set on a world with a land mass at both the north
and south of the world, with islands in between.  The planet is
populated by humans, who practice a bizarre religion to appease the
Thraise, a race of birds who must eat from a limited food selection
(mainly only dead humans).  The religion was set up to allow the
birds and humans (who are not native to the planet) to co-exist.  A
simplified overall plot statement is to say that an upcoming
confrontation between the Thraise and humans is approaching.  Each
group of people/individuals have their own way of planning for this
event, while others are planning how to advance within the current
system.  (Just as things would happen.)
   The first book ends, but the story plots as if the two books were
one.  Reading the first book only would be unsatisfactory, and with
the many characters one might not get around to starting the next.
Don't let this happen to YOU.  (shades of recruitment creeping in -
read both books).
   I will tone down the degree of all this hype by saying that the
story, at times, is more difficult to read than some books (I like
Doris Piserchia books also).  But stick with it (you'll only get
lost further ;-) (it's so much fun sticking those silly things in).
One could also bring up questions as to how such a religion could
get started, and have the people really believe it.  (but then look
at what people believe here on earth - no pointing to anyone in
particularly - just a statement:-) Actually the books cover this.
   One of the reasons I liked the book is that, I could really
picture people doing what they did in the story, and at times, it
made them appear so foolish.  People on earth do it all the time
(those involved with similar situations - eg. fighting aliens).
More to the point, it was a good read, and as a bonus to some
(including me), it's not typical of the bulk of fantasy published
now.
   Enough silly words.  Tepper is good.  Read her stuff.

lance

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 03:47:49 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper's latest

lance@LOGICON.ARPA writes:
>Northshore and Southshore were great

Uh, did we read the same books?  Tepper can do much better than
this.  The characters' problems were juvenile, they didn't really
grow throughout the novels and her attempts at intrigue were
pathetic.  This set seemed to be her first shot at novels aimed at a
more adult crowd than her earlier True-Game series, and she didn't
do as good a job as her earlier works suggest she should.  I regret
the fact that I bought the books - they were just a little too dull.

>One of the reasons I liked the book is that, I could really picture
>people doing what they did in the story, and at times, it made them
>appear so foolish.

Well, I'd agree that many of the things these people do are stupid
and foolish, which would be o.k. if the characters were a little
more complicated.  Most people over the age of 13 are more complex
than the people in this book.

>People on earth do it all the time (those involved with similar
>situations - eg. fighting aliens).

I must have missed something, when was earth attacked by aliens? :-)

>Enough silly words.  Tepper is good.  Read her stuff.

Yes, but not Northshore/Southshore. (0 on the infamous -4/+4 scale).

Tim

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 02:19:49 GMT
From: df1n+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Daniel Burton Fahs)
Subject: Re: Amber Books

   Sure. It's a special edition published by the Science Fiction
Book Club.  I have that set, but probably won't get the set of the
new series, as I have been impatiently been buying the books as soon
(well, almost) as they come out.  Damn cliffhangers.
   Wonderland is a SHADOW??
   Thought: Is Flatland a shadow, and if so could the Amberites
exist on it?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 16:31:35 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Phillip Verdieck)
Subject: Dope on Zelazny

Does anyone know when the third novel of the Second Amber series is
due.  I have seen some people mentioning "Sign of Chaos", and this
piques my interest.  Also, Zelazny talked at some con a while ago,
and from what I heard, both the 3rd and 4th books were in manuscript
form, he was simply having problems with the publishers.....

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 14:44:17 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Zelazny & Rugs (was: Re: Roger Zelazny
Subject: (changeling/madwand))

Then there's the rug in "Creatures of Light and Darkness" which just
*hates* being walked on.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 16:34:20 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Dope on Zelazny

>Does anyone know when the third novel of the Second Amber series is
>due.  I have seen some people mentioning "Sign of Chaos"

It's out, I bought it a week and a half ago. Arbor House hardback.

It opens with our friends having tea with the Mad Hatter and the
Cheshire Cat. I'm not joking. honest.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 23:30:58 GMT
From: archer@elysium.sgi.com (Archer Sully)
Subject: Re: Dope on Zelazny

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Phillip Verdieck) writes:
> Does anyone know when the third novel of the Second Amber series
> is due.  I have seen some people mentioning "Sign of Chaos", and
> this piques my interest.  Also, Zelazny talked at some con a while
> ago, and from what I heard, both the 3rd and 4th books were in
> manuscript form, he was simply having problems with the
> publishers.....

_Sign of Chaos_ is out and available in hardback at fine bookstores
near you.  It continues in the self-satiric vein of the other books
in the series, and is as good a two-hour read as I've seen recently.
Take that as you will.

Don't know about #4 or (the inevitable) #5.

Archer Sully
archer@sgi.com
{ucbvax,sun,pyramid,ames,decwrl}!sgi!archer

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 87 23:45:53 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: Zelazny & Rugs (was: Re: Roger Zelazny
Subject: (changeling/madwand))

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Then there's the rug in "Creatures of Light and Darkness" which
>just *hates* being walked on.

I'm glad someone else mentioned this.  It was the first rug-related
incident in Zelazny's works that occurred to me; I think the scene
is one of the funniest in all of Zelazny's writings, if not SF in
general.

William H. Ansley
Computer Science Dept.
226 Bell Hall
SUNYAB, Buffalo, NY  14260
csnet:  ansley@buffalo.csnet
uucp:   ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ansley
bitnet: ansley@sunybcs.bitnet
        csdansle@sunyabvc

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 17:03:39 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Dope on Zelazny

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Phillip Verdieck) writes:
>Does anyone know when the third novel of the Second Amber series is
>due.  I have seen some people mentioning "Sign of Chaos", and this
>piques my interest.  Also, Zelazny talked at some con a while ago,
>and from what I heard, both the 3rd and 4th books were in
>manuscript form, he was simply having problems with the
>publishers.....

The third book is out in *some* places.  I live in Massachusetts,
but haven't been able to find it in this state.  But I did find it
up in New Hampshire (could be why Nashua N.H. is Rand-McNally's #1
city to live in).  Note that it was in the Lauriat's up there, but
in neither of the Lauriat's down here.  Nor Walden's, Dalton's, or
Paperback Booksmith.  If you can't find it yet, the only advice I
have is "be patient, it'll get there."

As for the "problems with the publishers," _Sign of Chaos_ is right
on time.  But I've been told (by someone on the net) that this is
the problem with the third book in the _Changeling_ series.  Could
you have the two confused?

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 01:47:00 GMT
From: ADBARR@pucc.princeton.edu (Adam Barr)
Subject: New Zelazny?

Before I run out and buy 'Sign of Chaos' in hardback, could someone
who has read it tell me whether it is the last book in a trilogy, or
merely the third book in a longer series?  I guess you should E-mail
this since some might not want to know. Thanks.

Adam Barr
6080626@PUCC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1987 23:23 EDT
From: M.A. Murphy <MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Earthsea discussion

I'm just catching up on a week's worth of digests.  The discussion
on LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy seems to be running rampant these days.
I found the Earthsea books to be fascinating and wonderful.  They
are books that make one think.  They make one examine the characters
and their good and bad points.  They also make one examine one's own
good and bad points.  The fact that the books were not
*entertaining* per se all depends on how much one is willing to put
into the books.  Certainly, these books are not light entertainment,
but can be a very rewarding read if you use your noodle a little
bit.  Other books mentioned as *better* than the Earthsea books are
all much more entertaining, but they don't let you think enough to
discover what's going on.  The Eddings' books were all quite
enjoyable, but alas, they were rather predictable.

I think Mr. Chan (sc1u+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU <Stephen Chan>) has hit the
nail on the head.  His long discourse could possibly be summed up in
one small paragraph...

>The mass of people who buy books want to be entertained, not
>challenged.  Thus, the mass of books on the market are for those
>people.  There are plenty of books available that will challenge
>even the most demanding reader.  You've just got to look a little
>harder for them and wade through some of the things that are aimed
>at the masses.

The Earthsea trilogy falls in this category.  I found the first Star
Trek movie to be of this category also.  I heard a lot of complaints
about the lack of action and that it was a boring movie.  I found it
to be the most fascinating movie of the bunch.  The interplay of
characters and the 4 or 5 sub-plots interweaving had me completely
engrossed.  I was so engrossed in the movie that while the movie was
showing, I was completely unaware of the normal 'rowdiness' that
happens at all/most college showings of movies.

So, if you want to be entertained, there's plenty of stuff, good and
bad, out there to entertain you.  If you want to be entertained and
challenged, part of the challenge is finding this material.  Good
luck and happy reading!

A few things that I would also put in this category and recommend.

Anything by Katherine Kurtz!  Her Deryni world is so well put
together it's amazing!  And her system of magic is extremely thought
provoking and intriguing.  And her characters are real and
everything doesn't always have a happy ending.

_1984_ - George Orwell.  Definitely a thinking man's (or woman's)
book.

Several of Roger Zelazny's works.  _Lord_of_Light_ springs most
readily to mind.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413
Date: 22 Sep 87 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Sep 87 0854-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 413

Today's Topics:

               Books - Niven & Freelancers (2 msgs) &
                       Intelligent Suns (2 msgs) &
                       Story Request Answers (3 msgs) &
                       Story Requests (2 msgs) &
                       The Top 50 F&SF,
               Magazines - Worlds of If (2 msgs) &
                       Galaxy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 18:47:00 GMT
From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Niven novels

I finally got around to reading several Niven novels recently, and
have been wondering how some of them tie together in Known Space.
Specifically, there is the following problem:

In _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_, we learn of an explosion
at the galactic core that should reach the vicinity of Sol and Earth
in 20,000 years, and should make Earth uninhabitable.  But in
_A_World_Out_of_Time_, J. B. Corbell undergoes relativistic time
dilation that puts him 3,000,000 years into the future, and we learn
that Earth has been continuously inhabited all that time.

My question is, are those stories supposed to be in the same
"universe"?  And if they are, has Niven ever reconciled the apparent
contradiction?

H. George Friedman, Jr.
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1304 West Springfield Avenue
Urbana, Illinois  61801
USENET: ...!{pur-ee,ihnp4,convex}!uiucdcs!friedman
CSNET:  friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu
ARPA:   friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Sep 87 18:00:52 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Freelancers--comments and a question

Freelancers is a collection of three new long stories or short
novels (80 pages each) which just came out in paperback.  The
stories are by Orson Scott Card, David Drake, and Lois McMaster
Bujold.

The question first: The cover proclaims "Created by Elizabeth
Mitchell".  Does anybody know what it is about the book that she is
supposed to have created?  (Perhaps the caption "Created by
Elizabeth Mitchell"?)

The first story will be part of "Tales of the Mormon Sea".  It takes
place in just-after-the-bomb USA, when things are in the process of
falling apart.  A troubled loner comes across a group of Mormons --
survivors of a local (N.  Carolina) massacre -- and undertakes to
lead them to Utah.  I think "Tales of the Mormon Sea" is going to be
one of Card's better books.

The other two are a Hammer's Slammers story and a Miles Vorkosigan
story.  If you liked the books then you'll probably like the
stories.  If you haven't read the books then this isn't a good place
to start.

Eighty pages seems to be a difficult length.  It can't be as compact
as a short story, but there isn't time to properly motivate
everything that gets added to the story and to tie it up properly at
the end, as there would be in a full-length novel.  It can be done,
but it seems difficult.

Dani Zweig
haste2@andrew.cmu.edu
(arpa, bitnet, or via seismo)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 03:08:51 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Freelancers--comments and a question

>Freelancers is a collection of three new long stories or short
>novels
>
>The question first: The cover proclaims "Created by Elizabeth
>Mitchell".  Does anybody know what it is about the book that she is
>supposed to have created?  (Perhaps the caption "Created by
>Elizabeth Mitchell"?)

Betsy created the series. Freelancers is a series of anthologies of
novellas, each volume having a given theme (in this case,
mercenaries). It isn't clear that Freelancers is part of a series
because of the way it is packaged -- the series idea is the
collection of novella length material (generally the hardest fiction
to sell... I think this is a GREAT idea) rather than a given them
like Pournelle's "There Will Be War" series.

She's also the editor of the series, buys the fiction, handles all
the production and marketing, and generally runs the show, by the
way. She's also, for those that don't know, a senior editor at Baen
books, and editor-in-chief for the new Baen Fantasy line (previously
known as Sign of the Dragon, before TSR sent them a little note...)

Neat Lady, too. [oh, I"m not supposed to admit knowing these folks,
am I?]

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 87 15:05:45 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>Regarding the question about other works with intelligent suns,
>didn't Frank Herbert's "duology" of _Whipping Star_ and _The Dosadi
>Experiment_ have beings called Calibans which manifested themselves
>in the form of stars (suns)?

If we allow intelligent _former_ suns, we can add two fantasy
classics to the list: the Magician in C.S.Lewis'
_Voyage_of_the_Dawn_Treader_ (who had been demoted from star for
unspecified misdeeds) and the three old ladies in
_A_Wrinkle_in_Time_ (who gave their star-lives in the battle against
evil).

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 18:27:48 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

gtchen@faline.UUCP (George T. Chen) writes:
>I seem to remember reading several novels with intelligent
>suns...something [stuff deleted] What other stories had intelligent
>suns?

Spoilers ahead

Frank Herbert wrote a novel, _Whipping Star_, that had intelligent
suns in it.  If I remember correctly, these suns were actually
highly intelligent beings that manifested in our universe as suns.
They saw us as 'point-nodes' on a complex mathematical function.  I
found the novel very entertaining.  The main character is Jorge X.
McKie, Sabateur Extraordinary.  I really like McKie because he is
like Humphrey Bogart, an anti-hero.  He's not handsome, rich, or
dripping animal magnetism.  He does have a keen mind and can think
on his feet.

Herbert also writes believable alien species.  The Pan-Spechi and
Gowachin are very believable, and utterly alien.  I especially like
Gowachin law.  If the attorney loses the case he gets killed.  Hmm,
maybe we need something like that, it sure would cut down on those
ol' lawsuits clogging our justice system.:-):-).

Just my $1.98.

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 22:57:18 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re story request (hero imagines the universe)

The reality games make it sound like something Daniel F. Galoue
could have written in the 60's, he liked that type of thing.  (We
are all a computer simulation etc).

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 02:23:33 edt
From: rf1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Randolph James Finder)
Subject: Re: Name this short story

The only story I can remember reading like that is one where the
whole world can get insurance from this computer called F.A.T.E. but
this guy can't even with 100% premium.
    From here I'm not sure whether to say any more memories that
might spoil the story for someone who hasn't read it yet.

Randy
RF1N@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 00:26:31 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Name this short story

sds@fizban.UUCP (Steven Splinter) writes:
>Hmm, I don't recall that story, but one like it (no name here,
>either, but I'll start looking...) was that the man lived in a
>society where insurance could never be refused to anyone.  Charge
>any rates you want, but it MUST be available.  Anyway, this guy
>tries to get life insurance, and the computers say no.  He tries to
>find out why, and ends up finding out that he IS the universe, and
>when he dies, it ends.  Thus, he can't have life insurance...

"Prototaph", by Keith Laumer. It was published in Analog in the 60s.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 23:03:44 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Stories request (Hamilton, Leinster)

Here's one that will probably take jayembee, but anyway:

Does anyone have a bibliography for Edmund Hamilton and Murray
Leinster?  These two had professional lives that stretched from
before Pluto to the middle of the space age, and I've never been
sure what I have still yet to find by either of them.  I know it's
probably impossible to count all the magazine appearances, but it
should be possible to find out just what books each of them
published.

Any takers?

Thanks

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 00:38:56 GMT
From: lemke%wirehead@sun.com (Dave Lemke)
Subject: Story Search

I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read recently
that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.  The situation
was that a human ship crashed on a world which could not support its
crew, so they genetically engineered a race that could.  The race
turned out to be tiny aquatic tool users.  The plot dealt with their
quest to reach the next pool in a 'spaceship', and the fight they
had against surface tension, aquatic 'monsters' and the sun.

Thanks in advance,

Dave Lemke
Window Systems Group
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
ARPA: lemke@sun.com
UUCP: ucbvax!sun!lemke

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 21:11 N
From: <AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: The FSF Top 50 - Finally!!

It took some time, but here it finally is: The SF-lovers F/SF
top-50.  Yes, it's just a Top-50, but that's because I didn't get
enough entries to make an interesting Top-100 - YOUR FAULT!! :-) I
also added Top-5's of number of books on the list, total points per
author and Weirdness (yes!). These are taken from the full list, not
from the following top-50 list.

Enjoy! And see you next year...  (volunteers?)

John

THE SF-LOVERS FSF TOP-50

Title                           Author               Points

 1. Lord of the Rings (+Hobbit)     Tolkien, J.R.R.      91
 2. Dune                            Herbert, F.          89
 3. Hitch Hiker Series              Adams, D.            63
 4. Foundation Trilogy              Asimov, I.           62
 5. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress    Heinlein, R.A.       56
 6. Chronicles of Amber             Zelazny, R.          48
 7. Startide Rising                 Brin, D.             45
 8. The Mote in God's Eye           Niven & Pournelle    44
 9. Neuromancer                     Gibson, W.           42
    Lord of Light                   Zelazny, R.          42
11. The Left Hand of Darkness       LeGuin, U.K.         34
12. Ender's Game                    Card, O.S.           32
13. Stranger in a Strange Land      Heinlein, R.A.       28
    The Dragonriders of Pern        McCaffrey, A.        28
15. The Lathe of Heaven             LeGuin, U.K.         25
    Ringworld/Ringworld Engineers   Niven, L.            25
17. Caves of Steel                  Asimov, I.           21
    Chronicles of Thomas Covenant   Donaldson, S.R.      21
    1984                            Orwell, G.           21
20. Starship Troopers               Heinlein, R.A.       20
    The Dispossessed                LeGuin, U.K.         20
22. Rendez-vous With Rama           Clarke, A.C.         19
    A Canticle For Liebowitz        Miller, W.           19
24. Time Enough for Love            Heinlein, R.A.       17
25. 2010                            Clarke, A.C.         16
26. Childhood's End                 Clarke, A.C.         15
    The Man Who Sold the Moon       Heinlein, R.A.       15
    Lucifer's Hammer                Niven & Pournelle    15
29. Stand on Zanzibar               Brunner              14
    The Cyberiad                    Lem, S.              14
    Crystal Singer                  McCaffrey, A.        14
32. Speaker for the Dead            Card, O.S.           13
33. 2001: A Space Oddessy           Clarke, A.C.         12
    Oath of Fealty                  Niven & Pournelle    12
    True Names                      Vinge, V.            12
36. Camp Concentration              Disch, T.            11
    Flowers for Algernon            Keyes, D.            11
38. Timescape                       Benford, G.          10
    The Fog Horn                    Bradbury, R.         10
    Glory Road                      Heinlein, R.A.       10
    Voyage from Yesteryear          Hogan, J.            10
    The Summer Tree                 Kay, G.G.            10
    The Marching Morons             Kornbluth, C.        10
    Star Wars                       Lucas, G.            10
    The Bourne Identity/Supremacy   Ludlum, R.           10
    Known Space                     Niven, L.            10
    Footfall                        Niven & Pournell     10
50. Heart of the Comet              Brin & Benford        9


Number of titles on the list:
 1. Heinlein            (12)
 2. Clarke               (8)
 3. Niven (& co-authors) (8)
 4. Asimov               (5)
 5. Ellison              (4)
    LeGuin               (4)
    Zelazny              (4)

Total number of points:
 1. Heinlein            (173)
 2. Niven (& co-authors)(128)
 3. Zelazny              (96)
 4. Asimov               (92)
 5. Herbert              (91)
    Tolkien              (91)

Pfew! That's all as far as the 'regular' lists are concerned.  There
is still this matter:

Pride & Prejudice (Austen)
Alice in Wonderland (Carroll)
The Saint's Getaway (Charteris)
Macbeth (Shakespeare)            (special weirdo nomination)
De Eersten van Rissan (Gijsen)

(This last one will soon be translated from Dutch into English, or
so I am told...)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 12:02:27 GMT
From: PMORRIS@wash-vax.bbn.com
Subject: Worlds of If

Dear Net-readers,

   About a year ago I attended a convention from which I received a
copy of Worlds of If.  Every story I read in it were good, so I sent
in for a subscription.  The check has still not been cashed and I
have not received any issues.  Has this magazine (unfortunately)
folded, or was my letter/check lost?

   Thanks for any help,

Phillip Morris
BBN Laboratories
Arlington, VA
(703) 284-4630

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 19:33:08 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Worlds of If

>   About a year ago I attended a convention from which I received a
>copy of Worlds of If.  Every story I read in it were good, so I
>sent in for a subscription.  The check has still not been cashed
>and I have not received any issues.  Has this magazine
>(unfortunately) folded, or was my letter/check lost?

Don't feel bad. I sent in my subscription check long ago, and it was
cashed, and I never got the first issue, either. We're talking about
$6, so I'm not sweating it (postage and phone calls to clear it up
would have outstripped the money...) -- but I've heard that the
first issue got a limited printing and limited distribution and
then the thing died again. Sigh.

Of course, I just sent my check in for Weird Tales. This time for
sure!

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 87 9:31:34 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Galaxy Magazine

As a side issue to the recent discussion of Galaxy, I was wondering
if anyone knew the anwer to this query... Back at a St. Louis
"Archon" SF con in either '68 or '69, there was a special art
exhibit by the now-deceased underground comix and cartoon artist
Vaughan Bode'.

One of the features of this exhibit was a display of Galaxy covers
by Bode'. The interesting aspect of these was that they were all
*future* covers; he had invented story titles, used existing and
made-up author names, and devised cover illustrations to go with
these. I believe that the cover dates continued into the far future,
as I recall.

I was wondering if these Galaxy covers have ever been reproduced in
any accessible Bode' collection or other source, where they could be
seen again? Has anyone seen the originals since then, by the way? (I
would suppose most of Bode's work is in private collections by
now...)

Regards,
Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
(on USENET try ...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA )

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #414
Date: 23 Sep 87 0850-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #414
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Sep 87 0850-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #414
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Sep 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 414

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Doctor Who (5 msgs) &
                              Max Headroom (2 msgs)

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Date: Wed, 16 Sep 87  18:28:46 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: [Part 1] History of the Doctor Who Universe

[Moderator's Note:  Due to the length of this article it has been
split into two pieces.  The second part will appear in the next
issue of SF-LOVERS Digest.]

I have spent a long time compiling the following history using the
Doctor Who magazine, program guides, novelizations, and the show
itself. I would appreciate it if anyone finds something wrong,
questionable, or missing that the point it out so I will be able to
make a revised edition. Thank You.

PREHISTORY

15,000,000,000 BC Terminus time-jumps into a new universe(TERMINUS).
The Master tricks Adric into sending the Tardis to the Hydrogen
In-rush(CASTROVALVA). The Doctor accidently causes the Tardis Fast
Return Switch to jam and the time machine is almost carried to Event
One(THE EDGE OF DESTRUCTION).

400,000,000 BC Scaroth's spaceship explodes, the resulting radiation
accelerating the course of life on Earth(CITY OF DEATH).

150,000,000 BC After being obliterated, Eldrad's hand falls on
Earth(THE HAND OF FEAR).

140,000,000 BC The race of the Xeraphin comes to Earth(TIME-FLIGHT).

100,000,000 BC A Plesiosaurus is captured by Vorg's
Miniscope(CARNIVAL OF MONSTERS). Some dinosaurs are drawn forward in
time by Operation Golden Age(INVASION OF THE DINOSAURS).

65,000,000 BC The Silurians and the Sea Devils go into hibernation
because of the imagined disaster of the Moon's arrival(THE
SILURIANS, THE SEA DEVILS). A space freighter from 2526 AD crashes
into Earth, causing the extinction of the dinosaurs(EARTHSHOCK).

12,000,000 BC The Fendahl flees from the Fifth Planet after it is
destroyed by the Time Lords(IMAGE OF THE FENDAHL).

400,000 BC The Doctor gives back the secret of fire to a group of
cavemen(AN UNEARTHLY CHILD).

200,000 BC A Martian exploration ship becomes trapped in a glacier
during the fourth Ice Age(THE ICE WARRIORS).

100,000 BC A Terradonian Starliner crashes on Alzarius in
E-Space(FULL CIRCLE). The Daemons find Earth(THE DAEMONS).

55,519 BC Monarch leaves Urbanka for the first time(FOUR TO
DOOMSDAY).

35,519 BC Monarch picks up Kurkutji from Australia on Earth(FOUR TO
DOOMSDAY).

30,000 BC 2 Krynoid pods land in Antarctica(THE SEEDS OF DOOM).

25,519 BC Monarch leaves Urbanka for the second time(FOUR TO
DOOMSDAY).

15,519 BC Monarch picks up Princess Villagra from Central
America(FOUR TO DOOMSDAY).

10,519 BC Monarch leaves Urbanka for the third time(FOUR TO
DOOMSDAY).

8020 BC Zolpha-Thura is destroyed in a global war(MEGLOS).

5519 BC Monarch picks up Lin Futu from China(FOUR TO DOOMSDAY).

ANTIQUITY

5000 BC The Osirans imprison Sutekh in a blind pyramid in
Egypt(PYRAMIDS OF MARS).

3019 BC Monarch leaves Urbanka for the fourth time(FOUR TO
DOOMSDAY).

2500 BC The Doctor and the Daleks fight near the Great Pyramid(THE
DALEK MASTERPLAN).

2000 BC Kronos is captured by the priests of Atlantis. He gives King
Dallios a long life and knowledge but turns his athlete friend into
the Minotaur(THE TIME MONSTER). Cessair of Diplos lands on Earth and
masquerades as the Callieach(THE STONES OF BLOOD).

1500 BC The Master uses Kronos to destroy Atlantis(THE TIME
MONSTER).

1200 BC The Doctor comes up with the idea of the Trojan Horse(THE
MYTH MAKERS).

1000 BC Mawdryn and his seven colleagues are exiled after stealing a
Metamorphic Symbyosis Regenerator from Gallifrey(MAWDRYN UNDEAD).

900 BC The two Skaran races known as Dals and Thals start a
chemical/nuclear war that will last for a thousand years(GENESIS OF
THE DALEKS).

574 BC Bigon is born in Athens, Greece(FOUR TO DOOMSDAY).

519 BC Monarch picks up Bigon from Earth(FOUR TO DOOMSDAY).

50 AD The Kaled(Dal) government starts trying to stop the
experiments of their chief scientist Davros(GENESIS OF THE DALEKS).

64 AD The Doctor is responsible for Nero's burning of Rome(THE
ROMANS).

100 AD A Roman legion is kidnapped by the War Lords(THE WAR GAMES).
Davors creates the first Daleks(GENESIS OF THE DALEKS).

300 AD The Doctor aids the Thals in a temporary victory over the
Daleks(THE DALEKS).

MODERN HISTORY

731 AD Monarch leaves Urbanka for the fifth and last time(FOUR TO
DOOMSDAY).

981 AD Urbanka becomes uninhabitable(FOUR TO DOMMSDAY).

1066 AD The Meddling Monk attempts to ensure King Harold's victory
by supplying him with an atomic bazooka(THE TIME MEDDLER).

1190 AD The Doctor meets King Richard during the Crusades(THE
CRUSADES).

1191 AD Linx, a Sontaran, crash-lands in England(THE TIME WARRIOR).

1215 AD The Doctor meets Kamelion masquerading as King John under
the control of the Master(THE KING'S DEMONS).

1289 AD The Doctor meets Marc Polo in Pamir and Kublai Khan in
Peking(MARCO POLO).

1300 AD The Daleks and the Thals rediscover space travel(PLANET OF
THE DALEKS).

1492 AD The Mandragora Helix attempts to take over the Earth(THE
MASQUE OF MANDRAGORA).

1500 AD A Zygon spaceship brings the Skarasen to Loch Ness(TERROR OF
THE ZYGONS).

1505 AD Scaroth forces Leonardo daVinci to paint six Mona Lisas(CITY
OF DEATH).

1507 AD The Doctor's companion Barbara attempts to change history by
stopping the human sacrifices of the Aztecs(THE AZTECS).

1572 AD The Doctor is involved in the St. Bartholomew's Day
Massacre(THE MASSACRE).

1635 AD The Doctor meets Pasmadavalha in Tibet(THE ABOMINABLE
SNOWMEN).

1643 AD The Malus arrives in England(THE AWAKENING).

1650 AD The Doctor meets pirates at Cornwall(THE SMUGGLERS). Covens
hide from the fires of witch hunter Matthew Hopkins at Devil's
End(THE DAEMONS).

1666 AD The Terileptils cause the Great Fire of London(THE
VISITATION).

1746 AD The Doctor meets Jamie at the battle of Culloden(THE
HIGHLANDERS).

1750 AD The Third Lord Aldbourne plays at his parody of unspeakable
rituals of black magic at Devil's End(THE DAEMONS).

1792 AD The Doctor is involved in the French Revolution(THE REIGN OF
TERROR).

1793 AD Sir Percival Flint's miners ran back to Cornwall leaving him
for dead after failing to open Devil's End(THE DAEMONS).

1829 AD A creature kills two people and drives one other mad on Fang
Rock(HORROR OF FANG ROCK).

1830 AD The Master meets the Rani(THE MARK OF THE RANI).

1862 AD A U.S. Civil War Army is kidnapped by the War Lords(THE WAR
GAMES).

1866 AD The Daleks take the Doctor from London to Skaro to isolate
the Human Factor(THE EVIL OF THE DALEKS).

1872 AD The Daleks cause the disappearance of the crew of the Marie
Celeste(THE CHASE).

1873 AD Professor Litefoot brings Magnus Greel's Time Cabinet from
China to England(THE TALONS OF WENG-CHIANG).

1881 AD The Doctor almost gets shot at the O.K. Corral(THE
GUNFIGHTERS).

1885 AD The Doctor picks up H.G. Wells and takes him to the planet
Karfel(TIMELASH).

1889 AD The Doctor defeats Magnus Greel in London(THE TALONS OF
WENG-CHIANG).

1909 AD The Doctor stops a Rutan invasion on Fang Rock(HORROR OF
FANG ROCK).

1911 AD The Doctor stops Sutekh from destroying the
Universe(PYRAMIDS OF MARS).

1917 AD Various W.W.I. soldiers are kidnapped by the War Lords(THE
WAR GAMES).

1925 AD Nyssa meets her double, Ann Talbot(BLACK ORCHID).

1926 AD The S.S. Bernice is captured by Vorg's Miniscope(CARNIVAL OF
MONSTERS).

1935 AD The Doctor stops the Great Intelligence from conquering the
Earth with robot Yeti(THE ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN).

1957 AD Last witchcraft law repealed in England(THE DAEMONS).

1959 AD Cambridge University's attempt to open Devil's End is a
fiasco(THE DAEMONS).

CONTEMPORARY ADVENTURES

1963 AD The Doctor lands in London. After five months two school
teachers discovers him and he whisks them back in time(AN UNEARTHLY
CHILD).

1964 AD The Doctor stops Forester from manufacturing the deadly
insecticide DN6(PLANET OF GIANTS).

1965 AD The Doctor and the Daleks visit the Empire State
Building(THE CHASE). Ian and Barbara return to Earth using the Dalek
Time Machine(THE CHASE). The Doctor spends Christmas in Liverpool
after stealing the Daleks' Taranium Core(THE DALEK MASTERPLAN).

1966 AD The Doctor picks up Dodo in Wimbledon(THE MASSACRE). The
Post Office Wotan Computer developes its own mind and builds a race
of War Machines(THE WAR MACHINES). The Chameleons kidnap 50,000
humans from Gatwick Airport(THE FACELESS ONES). The Daleks kidnap
the Doctor back to 1866 AD London(THE EVIL OF THE DALEKS). The first
Doctor is pulled out of time twice(THE THREE DOCTORS, THE FIVE
DOCTORS).

1971 AD Tobias Vaughn makes contact with the Cybermen(THE INVASION).

1974 AD The Doctor stops Professor Zaroff from blowing up the Earth
with the help of Atlantian Fishmen(THE UNDERWATER MENACE).

1975 AD The Doctor stops the second Yeti invasion and meets
Lethbridge-Stewart(THE WEB OF FEAR). The Doctor stops seaweed
creatures from taking over a North Sea Gas Rig(FURY FROM THE DEEP).

1976 AD Tobias Vaughn and the Cybermen attempt to conquer Earth(THE
INVASION).

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 17:57:25 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!fmsrl7!grazier@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Grazier)
Subject: Re: Doctor Who

GWCHUGPG@UIAMVS.BITNET writes:
>I have some Doctor Who questions:
>1. I know Ian Marter is dead, but how, when, and where did he die?
>Doctor Who Monthly had a commemorative issue, but no information.

Ian Marter died late last year, within a couple months after I met
him at TARDISCON.  The reason I heard, not confirmed, was something
akin to diabetic shock.  He died in his sleep.

>2. What are the official BBC names of the Trial of a Time Lord
>season?  I believe they are constantly referred to as Story One,
>Story Two, etc., but in DWM there have been titles mentioned: The
>Mysterious Planet, Mindwarp, Terror of the Vervoids, The Ultimate
>Foe, Trial of a Time Lord, etc.  The first two of the (three?
>four?)  stories I believe are called The Mysterious Planet and
>Mindwarp, but the title of the final story (or two?) is vague.

Trial of a Time Lord:

1. The Robots of Ravalox
2. Mindwarp
3. Terror of the Vervoids
4. The Ultimate Foe

>3. What's the latest word on complete stories from Hartnell and
>Troughton?  Has The Tenth Planet finally found its missing episode?
>What's the status on Enemy of the World?  A list would be helpful;

I do know that some more "lost episodes" were found recently, but
I'm not sure which ones.  There are still, indeed, several of the
1st and 2nd Doctor episodes which are missing from the BBC archives.

Kevin R. Grazier
Ford Motor Company Scientific Research Labs
Advanced Powertrain Systems & Controls Engineering
uucp: {philabs|pyramid}!fmsrl7!grazier
      grazier@fmsrl7.UUCP
VOICE: (313) 739-8586

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87  10:34:47 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Doctor Who bloopers

A couple of years ago I saw the Doctor Who blooper reel at a
convention.  It was not on the schedule because it is illegal(of
course) and not even supposed to exist. In England all bloopers have
to be cleared with the actors before the tape can be shown to
anyone. Still, if anyone has or can get a copy I'd love it.

andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87  18:13:45 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: I asked him his name, and he told me the Doctor.

Jacob Hugart <GWCHUGPG%UIAMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes:
>I have some Doctor Who questions:
>1. I know Ian Marter is dead, but how, when, and where did he die?
>Doctor Who Monthly had a commemorative issue, but no information.

I can't remember which, but he died at a convention about 6 months
ago of diabetic shock. If you've ever seen him in person that black
bag he always carried around contained his insulin supply.

>2. What are the official BBC names of the Trial of a Time Lord
>season?  I believe they are constantly referred to as Story One,
>Story Two, etc., but in DWM there have been titles mentioned: The
>Mysterious Planet, Mindwarp, Terror of the Vervoids, The Ultimate
>Foe, Trial of a Time Lord, etc.  The first two of the (three?
>four?)  stories I believe are called The Mysterious Planet and
>Mindwarp, but the title of the final story (or two?) is vague.

Every episode of the fourteen was entitled The Trial Of A Time Lord.
During the making of the story each section had individual titles.
The Mysterious Planet          epsiodes 1-4
Mindwarp                       episodes 5-8
Terror of the Vervoids         episodes 9-12
The Ultimate Foe               episodes 13-14

>3. What's the latest word on complete stories from Hartnell and
>Troughton?  Has The Tenth Planet finally found its missing episode?
>What's the status on Enemy of the World?  A list would be helpful;
>here's what I have (on video-tape, at least - good old PBS
>cycling):

The fourth episode of The Tenth planet was recently turned in to the
BBC by a British fan. Bits of other stories still exist but I don't
have a complete list with me right now.

Here is a list of all the Troughton episodes that still exist on
video:

The Underwater Menace #1,3
The Moonbase #2,4
The Faceless Ones #1,3
Evil of the Daleks #2
The Abominable Snowmen #2
Enemy of the World #3
Web of Fear #1
Wheel in Space #3,6
Dominators #1-5 (complete)
Mind Robber #1-5 (complete)
Invasion #2,3,5-8
Krotons #1-4 (complete)
Seeds of Death #1-6 (complete)
Space Pirates #2
War Games #1-10 (complete)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 20:56:44 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: I asked him his name, and he told me the Doctor.

From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>>Jacob Hugart <GWCHUGPG%UIAMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes:
>>1. I know Ian Marter is dead, but how, when, and where did he die?
>
> I can't remember which, but he died at a convention about 6 months
> ago of diabetic shock. If you've ever seen him in person that
> black bag he always carried around contained his insulin supply.

I believe you're confused with the recent death in March of Patrick
Troughton -- who died of a heart attack while attending a convention
in Columbus Georgia.  Ian Marter died last October of a heart attack
in his appartment in London.  Early Heart attacks are not uncommon
for diabetics -- even with the very best care (and Ian was always
*very* careful) that particular high risk factor is still there.
Laurie Haldeman and I have an interview with Ian (originally done in
1984 -- but this is its first publication) in STARLOG #124 -- just
out.

Jean Airey
1306 W. Illinois
Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 21 SEP 87 09:24-EST
From: CJMEYERS%SUNRISE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Max Headroom

The season premiere of Max Headroom was on friday, and while I
thought that it was potentially a better produced show, the coming
attractions worried me.

I'm getting the distinct notion that Max is going 'mainstream.'
Suddenly the show is subtly attacking all sorts of 'popular
notions,' like shop at home networks.  They can't possibly have run
out of ideas yet??  Not only that, but in the previews for next
week, there is a flash of a couple in bed.  Hmm.  I guess
A-Certain-Network-Which-Shall-Remain-Nameless can't possibly believe
that S/F can have its own, original ideas.  Worse than that, Max
seems to be heading in the direction of a real character.  With his
own personality??  WaitAMinute.  I thought that he -had- to have
Edison's personality (since It _Was_ copied from his mind...)

Oh well, I guess there's always the original film on videotape...

Steve Winokur
SWINOKUR@SUNSET.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 21:15:29 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: cyberpunk

Is Max Headroom Cyberpunk, or have I got my definitions crossed?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #415
Date: 23 Sep 87 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #415
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Sep 87 0857-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #415
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 23 Sep 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 415

Today's Topics:

           Television - Doctor Who & Starlost (3 msgs) &
                        Max Headroom (2 msgs)

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Date: Wed, 16 Sep 87  18:28:46 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: [Part 2] History of the Doctor Who Universe

FUTURE

1977 AD The Doctor defeats an Auton Spearhead invasion
force(SPEARHEAD FROM SPACE). The SIlurians awaken(THE SILURIANS).
The first manned Mars Probe encounters the Ambassadors of Death(THE
AMBASSADORS OF DEATH).  Project Inferno destroys a parallel
Earth(INFERNO).

1978 AD The Master helps the Autons invade Earth a second
time(TERROR OF THE AUTONS). The Master uses a Mind Parasite to start
World War Three(THE MIND OF EVIL). Axos captures the Master and
forces him to lead it to Earth(THE CLAWS OF AXOS). The Time Lords
send the Doctor on a mission to Exarius in 2472 AD(COLONY IN SPACE).
The Doctor defeats the Master and Azal(THE DAEMONS). The Doctor
leaves K-9 Mark III on Earth for Sarah(K-9 AND COMPANY).

*Since the years from 1978 to 1989 overlap badly, I have pushed all
the dates herein forward 6 years to make some kind of sense.

1979 AD Guerillas from 2179 AD attempt to stop the Dalek control of
Earth(DAY OF THE DALEKS). The Time Lords send the Doctor to
Peladon(THE CURSE OF PELADON). The Master awakens the Sea Devils(THE
SEA DEVILS).  The Time Lords send the Doctor to Solos(THE MUTANTS).
The Master uses Kronos to destroy Atlantis in 1500 BC(THE TIME
MONSTER). The Doctor defeats Scaroth in Paris(CITY OF DEATH). Skagra
tries to locate Professor Chronotis a.k.a. Salyavin on the Time Lord
prison planet of Shada(SHADA). The fourth Doctor and the second
Romana are almost pulled out of time(THE FIVE DOCTORS).

1980 AD Omega attacks Earth(THE THREE DOCTORS). The BOSS computer
starts the Green Death(THE GREEN DEATH). Linx Kidnapps scientists
from London back to 1191 AD(THE TIME WARRIOR). The Doctor shows
Sarah an alternative Earth destroyed by Sutekh(PYRAMIDS OF MARS).
Crayford, the first man to Jupiter, is hijacked by the Kraals(THE
ANDROID INVASION).  An Earthling is kidnapped by Meglos(MEGLOS).

1981 AD Operation Golden Age timescoops dinosaurs to evacuate
London(INVASION OF THE DINOSAURS). The Spiders from Metebelis III
come to Earth(PLANET OF THE SPIDERS). The Scientific Reform Society
uses a Robot to steal the Disintegrater Gun(ROBOT). The Master
becomes the Keeper of Traken(THE KEEPER OF TRAKEN). The Master
destroys Logopolis (LOGOPOLIS). The Master lays a trap for the
Doctor on Castrovalva (CASTROVALVA). Monarch is stopped fours days
away from earth(FOUR TO DOOMSDAY). Sarah finds K-9 Mark III in her
attic(K-9 AND COMPANY).  The third Doctor and Sarah are pulled out
of time(THE FIVE DOCTORS).

1982 AD The Zygons emerge from Loch Ness(TERROR OF THE ZYGONS). The
Kraals attempt to invade Earth with Androids(THE ANDROID INVASION).
The Master hijacks two Concordes(TIME-FLIGHT). The Brigadier leaves
UNIT(MAWDRYN UNDEAD).

1983 AD A Krynoid almost destroys all animal life on Earth(THE SEEDS
OF DOOM). Eldrad's hand is found in a quarry(THE HAND OF FEAR). The
Brigadier meets his future self(MAWDRYN UNDEAD).

1984 AD The Fendahl's skull is excavated in Kenya(IMAGE OF THE
FENDAHL). The Malus destroys itself(THE AWAKENING). The Movellans
leave Dalek-killing bacteria on Earth; the Daleks create a Time
Corridor from 1984 to 4590(RESURRECTION OF THE DALEKS). The Doctor
meets Peri(PLANET OF FIRE).

1985 AD Cessair of Diplos is discovered by the Doctor(THE STONES OF
BLOOD). Benton leaves UNIT(MAWDRYN UNDEAD). The Cybermen use their
Time Vessel to land on Earth(ATTACK OF THE CYBERMEN). The second
Doctor and the sixth Doctor stop the Sontarans and the Androgums(THE
WO DOCTORS).

1986 AD Mondas returns to Earth(THE TENTH PLANET).

1989 AD The Brigadier meets his past self(MAWDRYN UNDEAD). The
second Doctor and the Brigadier are pulled out of time(THE FIVE
DOCTORS).

2010 AD Ice Warriors use the T-Mat on the Moonbase to attack
Earth(THE SEEDS OF DEATH).

2030 AD The Doctor meets his double, Salamander(THE ENEMY OF THE
WORLD).

2040 AD The Doctor stops a space plague ravaging Draconia(FRONTIER
IN SPACE).

2050 AD Earth installs the Gravitron on the Moonbase(THE MOONBASE).
The Hydrax, the first interstellar exploration ship, is hijacked
into E-Space by the Great Vampire(STATE OF DECAY).

2068 AD Galactic Insurance & Salvage is formed on London,
Earth(NIGHTMARE OF EDEN).

2070 AD The Cybermen invade the Moonbase housing the Gravitron(THE
MOONBASE).

2074 AD The Cybermen attack the Wheel In Space(THE WHEEL IN SPACE).

2084 AD A combined force of Silurians and Sea Devils attacks Sea
Base Four(WARRIORS OF THE DEEP).

2096 AD Galactic Insurance & Salvage liquidated(NIGHTMARE OF EDEN).

2116 AD The Empress materialises into the Hecate near the planet
Azur(NIGHTMARE OF EDEN).

2154 AD The Daleks invade Earth(THE DALEK INVASION OF EARTH).

2164 AD The Doctor halts the Dalek invasion of Earth(THE DALEK
INVASION OF EARTH).

2168 AD Steven Taylor crash-lands on Mechanus(THE CHASE).

2170 AD The Daleks and the Mechanoids wipe each other out(THE
CHASE).

2179 AD Guerillas go back to 1979 AD in an attempt to prevent the
Daleks gaining control of Earth(DAY OF THE DALEKS).

2183 AD Susan is pulled out of time(THE FIVE DOCTORS).

2200 AD A colonizer ship crashes on Metebelis III(PLANET OF THE
SPIDERS).

2249 AD Three Daleks are found in a mercury swamp on the earth
colony of Vulcan(THE POWER OF THE DALEKS).

2250 AD The Argolin and the Foamasi fight a 20 minute war that
almost totally destroys Argolis(THE LEISURE HIVE).

2290 AD The Doctor saves the Argolin(THE LEISURE HIVE).

2300 AD The Doctor defeats Sil on Varos(VEANGEANCE ON VAROS).

2386 AD The section of the galaxy containing Argolis discovers
unreal transfer as a way of manipulating solid objects(THE LEISURE
HIVE).

2400 AD Earth and Draconia meet while colonizing the galaxy(FRONTIER
IN SPACE).

2450 AD The Doctor refreezes the Cybermen in their tomb on Telos(THE
TOMB OF THE CYBERMEN). The Cybermen capture a Time Vessel that
landed on Telos(ATTACK OF THE CYBERMEN).

2471 AD Earth colonists land on Exarius(COLONY IN SPACE).

2472 AD The Doomsday Weapon is destroyed by its Guardian(COLONY IN
SPACE).

2493 AD The Doctor meets Vicki and Koquillion on Dido(THE RESCUE).

2500 AD Earth makes contact with Solos(THE MUTANTS).

2520 AD Earth and Draconia fight a 3 day interstellar war(FRONTIER
IN SPACE).

2526 AD Beginning of the Galactic Cyberwars(EARTHSHOCK).

2540 AD The Master and the Daleks try to provoke a second war
between Draconia and Earth(FRONTIER IN SPACE, PLANET OF THE DALEKS).

2600 AD The Doctor stops the Macra's hold on an Earth colony(THE
MACRA ). The Doctor is involved with space pirates(THE SPACE
PIRATES). The second Doctor is pulled out of time(THE THREE
DOCTORS). First intergalactic expeditions(THE FACE OF EVIL). Star
pioneers are sent to Andromeda(THE ARK IN SPACE).

2700 AD An Earth spaceship discovers the Sense-Sphere(THE
SENSORITES).

2800 AD The Daleks land on Exxilon to obtain Parrinium(DEATH TO THE
DALEKS).

2850 AD Voga drifts into Jupiter's orbit(REVENGE OF THE CYBERMEN).

2900 AD The Doctor and Peri are infected by Sprectrox(THE CAVES OF
ANDROZANI). The Doctor stops the escargot Mestor(THE TWIN DILEMMA).
The supposedly last Cybermen die near Voga(REVENGE OF THE CYBERMEN).

3000 AD The Doctor stops the Ice Warriors and postpones the fifth
Ice Age(THE ICE WARRIORS). Earth's Empire starts to crumble(THE
MUTANTS).  The Company gains control of humanity(THE SUNMAKERS).

3050 AD The Doctor kills the Great Vampire in E-Space(STATE OF
DECAY).

3200 AD Humanity returns to Earth after the fall of the Company(THE
SUNMAKERS). Beginnings of the Federation(THE CURSE OF PELADON).

3500 AD Peladon joins the Federation(THE CURSE OF PELADON).

3550 AD Galaxy Five attacks the Federation and Peladon(THE MONSTER
OF PELADON).

3700 AD The Federation grows in influence and so does Earth(CARNIVAL
OF MONSTERS, THE RIBOS OPERATION).

3922 AD First successful cloning experiments(THE INVISIBLE ENEMY).

4000 AD The Daleks mass in force on Kembel(MISSION TO THE UNKNOWN,
THE DALEK MASTERPLAN).

4100 AD The Daleks meet the Movellans(DESTINY OF THE DALEKS).

4500 AD Davros is taken prisoner to Earth(DESTINY OF THE DALEKS).

4590 AD The Daleks rescue Davros from suspended
animation(RESURRECTION OF THE DALEKS).

4605 AD The Daleks take Davros back to Skaro for trial(REVELATION OF
THE DALEKS).

5000 AD Magnus Greel starts starts World War Six during the fifth
Ice Age(THE TALONS OF WENG-CHIANG). The Virus Swarm attacks
Titan(THE INVISIBLE ENEMY).

5200 AD Nerva Beacon is used as an Ark to escape the Solar Flares
that devestate Earth(THE ARK IN SPACE).

10,200 AD A Wirrn Queen invades Nerva(THE ARK IN SPACE).

12,900 AD The Doctor projected Sutekh this far into time to die of
old age(PYRAMIDS OF MARS).

15,200 AD The Doctor defeats the Wirrn on Nerva(THE ARK IN SPACE).
The Doctor halts a Sontaran invasion of the galaxy on Earth(THE
SONTARAN EXPERIMENT).

18,750 AD The Animus causes the Menoptera to leave Vortis and settle
near Pictos(THE WEB PLANET).

20,000 AD The Doctor helps the Menoptera to defeat the Animus and
the Zarbi(THE WEB PLANET).

30,000 AD Taren Capel starts a robot revolution(THE ROBOTS OF
DEATH).

37,166 AD Morestrans take anti-matter from Zeta-Minor(PLANET OF
EVIL).

1,999,500 AD Solar flares devestate Earth a second time(TRIAL OF A
TIME LORD).

2,000,000 AD The Doctor discovers that Earth's solar system has been
shifted 2 light years across space(TRIAL OF A TIME LORD).

10,000,000 AD Two ships are launched to escape Earth's imminent
collision with the sun(THE ARK, FRONTIOS). One crashes on the planet
Frontios(FRONTIOS). The Ark makes it to Refusis 700 years later(THE
ARK).

THE END
for now....

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 87 03:22:42 GMT
From: taras@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (T. Pryjma)
Subject: Re: Starlost, help, info wanted

Yes, Ellison and Bova did not like this series and got back like
others have written earlier in this discussion.  Television, as with
computers, does go through this thing called a learning curve and
Starlost was just part of the bottom of that curve.  Trouble with
Tracy was also part of that learning curve, did anybody see that?

Okay, Starlost was produced by Glen Warren Production Limited in
about the mid 1970's.  It was killed because of bad ratings,
production problems and costing problems.  If you want more
information on what happened with the production read the
Starcrossed by Ben Bova.

I personally found the show very slow, but I should give credit to
both Glenn Warren and the CTV Television Network for attempting to
produce a SF series when nobody else would.  Remember, this series
was produced a few years before Star Wars.

Despite the problems mentioned by Bova, if I were to produce a SF
series out of Toronto, or this corner of the continent, I would
still choose to use the facilities of Glenn Warren Productions, aka
CFTO-TV channel 9, due to fact that they do have the best
facilities.  I would however exercise very strict control over what
goes on on my sets.

As a matter of interest, Baton Broadcasting, who is Glen-Warrens
parent, had sales last year of approximately $189 million CDN most
of which came from production.  Glen Warren/CFTO has also held the
record for owning the world's largest television studio, which is
huge and also where most of Starlost was shot.

Additional information can be obtained from

Glen Warren Productions Limited
Box 9, Station O
Toronto, Ontario
M4A 2M9
(416) 291-7571
Fax (416) 299-2067

Distributors are (pass this on to your tv, if you want to see it)

EPS Entertainment Programming Services Ltd.
720 King St. West,
Toronto, Ontario
M5V 2T3
(416) 364-3894

Information provided is strictly for the enlightenment of members of
the net I have no OFFICIAL connection with Glen Warren, Baton, or
EPS.

Taras Pryjma
uucp: taras@gpu.utcs
bitnet: tpryjma@utoronto
Bell: +1 (416) 536-2821

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87  19:18:34 EDT
From: Bevan%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: A self-correction

I cited "Shatterday" as the source for Harlan Ellison's account of
the disaster that was "The "Starlost".  I meant "Stalking the
Nightmare" - for some reason I confused them, which is not
surprising when you consider that I just agreed to purchase the
Britannica for $70 a month....

Ben Bova wrote a novel called "The Star Crossed" that was based on
his experience as scientific adviser to "The Starlost" (like
Ellison, he quit in disgust).  It's a real roman a clef, even down
to the infamous scene where the lead actor (aka Keir Dullea) is
doing a special effects scene stoned to the gills on pot and keeps
crashing into the walls in his flying harness.  I just wish I could
find my copy....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 07:57 EDT
From: David Bogartz <DSBOGARTZ%AMHERST.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Starlost

In response to the query about when it ran, and whether it pre-dated
LOGAN'S RUN:

I believe it did predate LOGAN'S RUN.  I remember watching STARLOST
in a house in which I lived from 1971 through 1972 or '73.  In any
case, a few years before LOGAN'S RUN (1976, according to the
poster).

David Bogartz
dsbogartz@amh.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 00:20:18 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!nosc!humu!uhccux!keith@RUTGERS.EDU (Keith
From: Kinoshita)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

From: CJMEYERS%SUNRISE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>S/F can have its own, original ideas.  Worse than that, Max seems
>to be heading in the direction of a real character.  With his own
>personality??  WaitAMinute.  I thought that he -had- to have
>Edison's personality (since It _Was_ copied from his mind...)

I disagree.  Max and Edison are now experiencing different
perspectives with even different ideas of their origins.  Max knows
he is a construct.  He knows his "creator." It poses different
problems on Max.  What would be interesting to see is the divergence
of Max and Edison.  The two would have to deal with each other's
differences.  Sounds like normal human beings huh?  It sounds like
life.  It sounds like great Science Fiction.

INTERNET: keith@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
PLATO: keith/uhcc/hawaii
UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,dcdwest,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!nosc!uhccux!keith
BITNET: keith%uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 10:31 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Max Headroom, new season

I have to admit, I missed most of the first season.  By the time I
realized when it was on, it was over.  And when a friend tried to
introduce me to it via a videotape of the British version, it didn't
impress me.

But I quite like the opening episode this season.  *SPOILER ALERT*
It was quite loaded down with a subtle kind of humor, from
throw-away lines over the Academy of Computer Science's loudspeaker
("Students are cautioned not to leave mutated molecules in their
lockers overnight."), to the entirely logical, but jarring vision of
Bryce as the over-the-hill hacker against these 10-year-old
upstarts, to the too-realistic vision of a trial by gameshow.  And,
of course, the constant use of computer analogies in everything. (ie
"a chip off the old mainframe")

I was a little annoyed, however, with the presence of a Message.
Actually, I could live with the ridicule given the Star Trek III
motto "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
However, the muddled philosophy, reminiscent of ST I, of how emotion
is more important than logic, the faith given to words like
"conscience" and "right" (I'm surprised they didn't bring up "The
American Way") bugged me.

I'm looking forward to hearing how all you other SFLovers react to
this first show.  Is this different from the first season?  Is it
really more simplistic?

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #416
Date: 28 Sep 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #416
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 87 0910-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #416
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 416

Today's Topics:

                Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Sagan &
                        Vernor Vinge (2 msgs) &
                        Story Request Answered ( 8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 00:20:40 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Heinlein books
To: BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> Question #1: Can anyone help me to a chronological bibliography of
> his work? I *think* I have read everything he ever wrote, but am
> especially unsure about his juvenile novels.

I think I have most of his books.  Here are the ones I have, or know
of:

6XH                                           ?
Assignment in Eternity                      1953
Citizen of the Galaxy                       1957
Between Planets                             1951
Beyond This Horizon                         1942
Cat who Walks Through Walls, The            1985
Citizen of the Galaxy, The                  1957
Day After Tomorrow, The                     1941
Double Star                                 1956
Expanded Universe   [available only in USA] 1980
Farmer in the Sky                           1950
Farnham's Freehold                            ?
Friday                                      1982
Glory Road                                  1963
Green Hills of Earth, The  [subset of tPTT] 1951
Have Space Suit Will Travel                 1958
I Will Fear No Evil                         1970
JOB: A Comedy of Justice                    1984
Menace from Earth, The                      1959
Methuselah's Children      [subset of tPTT]   ?
Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The               1965
Number of the Beast, The                    1980
Orphans of the Sky                          1963
Past Through Tomorrow, The                  1967
Podkayne of Mars                            1963
Puppet Masters, The                         1951
Red Planet                                  1949
Revolt in 2100             [subset of tPTT]   ?
Rocket Ship Galileo                         1947
Rolling Stones, The                         1952
Space Cadet                                 1948
Star Beast, The                             1954
Starman Jones                               1953
Starship Troopers                           1959
Stranger In a Strange Land                  1961
Time Enough For Love                        1973
Time For The Stars                          1956
To Sail Beyond the Sunset                   1987
Tomorrow, The Stars                         1952
Tunnel In the Sky                           1955
Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag, The 1959
Waldo & Magic, Inc.                         1940

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 07:33:47 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!wab@RUTGERS.EDU (William Baker)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

dlleigh@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Darren L. Leigh) writes:
>Have heart, you're not stupid.  TNOTB is probably the worst thing
>that Heinlein has written (I won't say *the* worst because I am
>still avoiding his latest blunder).

It was the only Heinlein book I couldn't bring myself to finish on
first reading.  Frankly, none of the defenses of TNOTB posted so far
have justified the book.  I think fans are grasping at straws.  Even
if the ending is supposedly meaningful, the middle of the book is
amazingly dull, especially so considering Heinlein was never known
for being long-winded.

>Heinlein's quite a guy but suffers from medical problems that
>affect his brain (seriously, he had/has some sort of bloodclot or
>something).  There was a long Heinlein hiatus between
>_Time_Enough_For_Love_ and TNOTB.  In fact, I still remember book
>cover blurbs calling TEFL "the capstone of a great career".
>Everything the man has written since TEFL has been, well . . .
>strange.  Yes, the old master still shines through in parts of
>_Friday_, _Job_ and the first part
>_The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls, but let's face it, the man is
>through.

I have so much respect for the man that I still read everything he
writes.  He is supposedly over his stroke, but his writing has been
spotty since.  Actually, I wonder how much he gets around these days
since I live in Santa Cruz.  I keep expecting to run into him around
town sometime.

Bill Baker
tektronix!reed!wab

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 14:59:20 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt)
Subject: Re: Heinlein books

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes:

> 6XH                                           ?
...
> Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag, The 1959

These two are the same book, a collection of 6 short stories.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 20:44:54 GMT
From: "Michael J. Hammel" <SNHAM%TTUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

Dan Parmenter writes:
>I read "Contact" a few days ago. As usual with Carl Sagan's
>writing, the ideas are solid, the execution weak.

I disagree. I found "Contact" to be rivoting. It was real enough to
let me feel like we're not too far away from contact.

>The truth is that "Contact" is SF, and second-rate stuff at that.

Second rate? Something tells me you consider first rate stuff to be
things like ThunderCats or RoboTech. Sagan wrote something that
wasn't just science fiction, it *was* a novel. I read it like CE3K.
That was a novel as well.  The subject matter may have dealt with
things you don't ordinarily run into everyday, but it wasn't like
any of the trashy put-them-out-as-fast-as-you-can sci-fi's I've been
reading lately. And it definitely wasn't fantasy. Its roots are in
reality. Thats why, at least to me, its a bit more than just mere
science fiction.

BTW, does anyone know just how much a writers say is in what goes on
a cover jacket blurb? I would guess the sales department designs
those things, to sell the book.

Michael
SNHAM @ TTUVM1

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 00:24:32 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime
To: seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU
Cc: boreas@BUCSB.BU.EDU

seismo!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_bjjb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jared J Brennan)
writes:
> Besides the fact that it was more likely serialized in Analog, the
> above information is correct.

_Marooned in Realtime_ was indeed serialized in Analog, May through
August 1986.  So was _The Peace War_, May through August 1984.

> However, there was yet another story set in this universe, midway
> between the two books.

_The Ungoverned_, in Far Frontiers Volume 3, Fall 1985, published by
Baen books.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 19:30:41 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Marooned in Realtime

>_marooned in realtime_ was indeed serialized in analog, may through
>august 1986.  so was _the peace war_, may through august 1984.
>
>> However, there was yet another story set in this universe, midway
>> between the two books.
>
>_The Ungoverned_, in Far Frontiers Volume 3, Fall 1985, published
>by Baen books.

I *thought* something was missing between these two novels!  I hate
the way SF publishing makes it difficult to follow series stories.
Can anyone tell me where else I might find this story?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 15:09:15 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans)
Subject: Re: Story Search

lemke@sun.UUCP (Dave Lemke) writes:
>I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read recently
>that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.  The situation
>was that a human ship crashed on a world which could not support
>its crew, so they genetically engineered a race that could.  The
>race turned out to be tiny aquatic tool users.  The plot dealt with
>their quest to reach the next pool in a 'spaceship', and the fight
>they had against surface tension, aquatic 'monsters' and the sun.

Oh, yeah, I know that one! I think it's a Jack Vance short story
from "The Narrow Land".  If not, then I think it's a Hal Clement
one.  I know I read it recently and it is one of the above.

Yeah, the micro-organisms build a "ship" of a tiny flake of wood and
use paramecia to propel it into the next pool of water.  Paramecia
turn out to be not only intelligent, but downright noble as well.
The paramecia willingly sacrifice themselves to dehydration in this
epic micro-odyssey, and one even delivers the story's final
soliloquy!

All in all, an obvious metaphor for space exploration.

Mark Stevans
cci632!mark

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 23:02:58 GMT
From: njd@ihlpm.att.com (DiMasi)
Subject: Re: Story Search

lemke%wirehead@Sun.COM (Dave Lemke) writes:
> I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read
> recently that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.  The
> situation was that a human ship crashed on a world which could not
> support its crew, so they genetically engineered a race that
> could.  ...

The name of this story is _Surface Tension_, and the author is James
Blish.  I believe I read it in an anthology edited by Isaac Asimov,
titled _Where Do We Go From Here?_

It's an interesting story, and a memorable one, too.

Nick DiMasi

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 16:26:26 PDT
From: fusci%buffer.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Ray Fusci OGO1-2/W08
From: dtn-276-8158)
Subject: re: story request

lemke%wirehead@sun.com (Dave Lemke) asked:
>I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read recently
>that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.  The situation
>was that a human ship crashed on a world which could not support its
>crew, so they genetically engineered a race that could.  The race
>turned out to be tiny aquatic tool users.  The plot dealt with their
>quest to reach the next pool in a 'spaceship', and the fight they
>had against surface tension, aquatic 'monsters' and the sun.

The story you remember is "Surface Tension", which first appeared in
the August, 1952 issue of _Galaxy_.  I read it in Robert A. W.
Lowndes, ed., _The_Best_of_James_Blish_, Ballantine Books, August,
1979, ISBN 0-345-25600-X.  It was the cover story.

Ray Fusci
UUCP: ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci
ARPA: fusci@scotch.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 14:44:44 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji Hirai)
Subject: Re: Story Search

lemke%wirehead@Sun.COM (Dave Lemke) writes:
> I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read
> recently that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.  The
> situation was that

   The story you refer to is a short story named _Surface Tension_
by James Blish (of the _Cities in Flight_ and _Case on Conscience_
fame).  I seem to recall that this short story won a Hugo.  Correct
me if I'm wrong.
   My personal opinion: the idea was interesting, though when you
think about it, can such small microorganisms support such high
level intelligence?

Eiji Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:  {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
CSnet: hirai%swatsun.swarthmore.edu@relay.cs.net
ARPA:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 07:32:37 GMT
From: uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Story Search

lemke@sun.UUCP (Dave Lemke) writes:
>I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read recently
>that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.  The situation
>was that a human ship crashed on a world which could not support
>its crew, so they genetically engineered a race that could.  The
>race turned out to be tiny aquatic tool users.

The story is "Surface Tension", by James Blish.

It can be found in Volume I of "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame", a
paperback series that I first saw in the early 1970's.  I don't know
if the series is still in print, however.

One of my all-time favorite tales.

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.UUCP
University of Nevada - Reno

------------------------------

Date: Sat 26 Sep 87 00:50:10-CDT
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Story Request answer (aquatic microorganisms)

James Blish wrote a book called The Seedling Stars (I believe!)
which was a collection of 3 or 4 novellas each concerning men
genetically engineered to survive in a hostile environment.  I think
the first one was on a frozen waste planet, another in a steamy
jungle of very high trees... anyway the last story, called "Surface
Tension" (I think!)  is probably what you're looking for!  I
remember liking it a lot (read it about 9 years ago).

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 00:20:05 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: re: story request

fusci%buffer.DEC@decwrl.dec.com writes:
> The story you remember is "Surface Tension", which first appeared
> in the August, 1952 issue of _Galaxy_.  I read it in Robert A. W.
> Lowndes, ed., _The_Best_of_James_Blish_, Ballantine Books, August,
> 1979, ISBN 0-345-25600-X.  It was the cover story.

It is worth noting that Blish wrote other stories set in the same
universe.  As I write this, I'm holding a paperback I've owned for a
*long* time called "The Seedling Stars" (Signet D2549) first printed
in 1959 and reprinted in '64.  I think I glommed onto it at a flea
market sometime around 1971.

This pb contains an expanded version of "Surface Tension",
surrounded by three other pieces that the publishing history lists
as:

   "A Time to Survive" -- from F&SF, copyright 1955
   "The Thing in the Attic" -- IF Magazine copright 1954
   "Watershed" -- If Magazine copyright 1955

Together these are presented as the pivotal episodes in the history
of the "Adapted Men", creations of what we'd today call genetic
engineering designed to colonize planets uninhabitable by normal
humans.

ATtS (Book 1) deals with the beginnings of the technology and its
near-suppression by a tyrannical world state.

TTitA (Book II) portrays the rediscovery of their human origins by a
pair of outcasts from one regressed society of Adapted Men that live
in the forest canopy of a jungle world.

Book 4 is very short; it gives you a brief picture of Adapted Men
being brought back to recolonize an ecologically devastated Earth,
the wheel come full circle.

This book was a favorite of mine for many years. I recommend it
highly if you can find a copy.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
Phone: (215)-296-5718
{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 08:13:46 GMT
From: uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Story Search

bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) writes:
>>I'm trying to remember the name of a story or novel I read
>>recently that dealt with intelligent aquatic micro-organisms.
>> . . . the fight they had against surface tension, aquatic
>>'monsters' and the sun.

That story, as has been pointed out already, is "Surface Tension",
by James Blish.

>By Theodore Sturgeon, I believe. Can't remember the title, though.

No, no -- that was "Microcosmic God", where this eccentric scientist
actually creates life.  The beings he creates ("neoterics") live and
evolve at a fantastically accelerated rate, and he guides their
development by altering the artificial environment in which they
live (they're pretty small, possibly on the order of mouse or rat
size).  They evolve intelligence, and end up inventing all sorts of
nifty things that he is able to sell to the outside world, including
an inexhaustible power source, which certain evil people want to get
their hands on . . . but I don't want to spoil it for you.  It's a
GREAT story.  It appears in the same volume (I) of "The Science
Fiction Hall of Fame" as "Surface Tension".

Anyone else out there run across stories in this vein?  "Blood
Music" comes to mind . . .

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.UUCP
University of Nevada - Reno

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #417
Date: 28 Sep 87 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #417
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 87 0921-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #417
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 417

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 05:17:43 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Timothy R. Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Wrath of Khan music/Respighi

ins_bjjb@jhunix.UUCP (Jared J Brennan) writes:
>Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes
>>I was just listening to THE PINES OF ROME.  The 4th movement is
>>"The Pines of the Appian Way," and it represents an army marching
>>down the ancient road.  At the climax, I suddenly heard the
>>trumpets playing almost the same theme that we heard as the
>>Enterprise struggled to escape from the Genesis wave. Anybody else
>>hear that, or am I just crazy?
>
>   You may be crazy (8-)), but that probably was the same theme
>that you heard.  This may also be the same theme heard in both
>Aliens and Star Trek III (in Aliens, as the aliens erupt from the
>floor and ceiling in the command post, in Star Trek III, as the
>Klingon ship drops its cloak).
>
>   It's a fairly common practice for composers to use bits and
>pieces of each other's music, I hear . . .

Well, I just had to mention that it is even more common for
composers to borrow from their OWN work, as James Horner did for
STII,STIII, and Aliens.  If I were interested in the music from
these movies, I would buy one of the soundtracks only.  It makes
little difference which one you buy since they are nearly identical.

I may have the composer's name wrong, but I do know that he did the
music for all three movies, and at least one other that I cannot
right now remember.

Timothy Russell Flanagan
reed!tim

------------------------------

Date: 22 SEP 87 13:30-N
From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Rumour about Gene R's departure from ST:TNG

Hi fans!

There is a rumour here on CSNEWS@MAINE stating that Gene Roddenberry
has left ST:TNG, hopefully this isn't true!!! At least 3 people
mentioned this rumour. I haven't seen any of this in the
rec.arts.startrek messages recently. Can any of you confirm or
(hopefully) deny this rumour???  On behalf of all the worried
subscribers of CSNEWS@MAINE : Let's hope this is nothing but a
rumour!

Take care, Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 21:33:22 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Rumour about Gene R's departure from ST:TNG

There have been persistent rumors for a few months that Roddenberry
would be kicked upstairs into a hands-off position.  He has
reportedly been antagonizing the actors and writers alike with his
thoughtless behavior.  Personally, I hope the rumor is true; when it
was good, which was rarely, Star Trek was good in spite of
Roddenberry, not because of him.  The episodes he wrote were among
the very worst in the series, and the drop in quality after he left
actually had more to do with the simultaneous departure of the story
editor, Dorothy Fontana.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 09:38:21 EDT
From: "Michael R. Margerum" <DCHPC%UOTTAWA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek songs

It was interesting to read about the song Star Trekin' by the Firm
in a recent posting. There have been several other songs over the
past few years which have made use of "Star Trek cliches" in their
titles and/or lyrics. Here are the ones that I can recall, with
approximate dates.
   Phazors on Stun (sic)  by  FM                      ca1977
   Beam me up Scotty      by the Fingerprinz          ca1979
   Where`s Captain Kirk?  unknown Punk band           ca1981
Does anybody out there know of any others?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 17:18:00 GMT
From: kinzler@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek songs

The song "99 Luftballoons" by the German group Nina, which got a lot
of airplay in the US in both the German and English ("99 Red
Balloons") versions, contained the line,
   "Hielten sich feur Captain Kirk"
or, (apologies for the sloppy translation):
   "They all imagined themselves Captain Kirk"
This is circa 1984.

Stephen Kinzler
kinzler@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
{ihnp4,seismo,cbosgd}!iuvax!kinzler
Indiana Univ Dept of Computer Science
Lindley Hall 101; Bloomington, IN 47405 USA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 20:32:59 GMT
From: "Michael J. Hammel" <SNHAM%TTUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

Responding (again) to ill-fated treknologies.....

And another thing: how come in one episode (I forget which one) it
took 3 days to get a message to get to Starfleet Command, and in
almost every other episode, transmission was nearly instananeous?
Did someone in Starfleet get hold of Ender's Ansible?

Michael
SNHAM @ TTUVM1

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 20:16:54 GMT
From: "Michael J. Hammel" <SNHAM%TTUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

Jacqueline Cote writes:
>comments on any other "Scientific Discrepencies" for that matter?

I have one. In a book I got a long time ago (I think its called Star
Trek #3, from the Magazine of Star Trek, or something like that) it
was argued that the technology for the transporter could not have
been available at the time of Kirk and Co. were around. I agree,
primarily because of the intracies of the human body. Transportation
of inorganic material is probably an order of 2 or 3 times as easy
than transportation of living matter, simply because inorganic
material is not in a constant state of semi-random motion. What I'm
saying (in a Klingonese sort of accent) is that just how difficult
would one think it would be to disassemble human molecules and put
them back together in the proper order. And for that matter, what
would be the consequences of putting it back together in the wrong
order, say blood returning to the heart switched with blood leaving
the heart? In my opinion, I just don't think medicine will be ready
to handle those problems (and I consider it a medical problem, after
all, it will be the biologists and such who define to the engineers
what to disassemble, and what goes where when you put it back
together).

Michael
SNHAM @ TTUVM1

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 03:02:47 GMT
From: kdw1@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Keith Waclena)
Subject: Re: Star Trek songs

DCHPC@UOTTAWA.BITNET writes:
>     Where`s Captain Kirk?  unknown Punk band           ca1981

This was by Spizz Energi (though they may have called themselves
Spizz Oil, Athletico Spizz '80, or just plain Spizz when they
released that particular song; I can't recall--I could check my copy
if anyone's dying to know).  An okay band; do I remember another of
their songs with *Spock* in the title?  Hmm..  They did a number of
science fiction flavored tunes; my favorite's ``Mega City 3''.
Anyway, you can get ``Where's Captain Kirk?'' on *Spizz History*,
Rough Trade records.

Keith Waclena
University of Chicago Graduate Library School
1100 E. 57th Street, Chicago, Illinois   60637
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!kdw1
kdw1@sphinx.UChicago.{EDU,BITNET,MAILNET,CSNET}

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87 18:47:09 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG

STARLOG this month had a nice article on TNG. Some of the more
interesting lines follow.

...Mark Lenard has been seen around and one carpenter swears he saw
William Shatner lurking in the shadows. And of course there was the
previous week's guest-starring turn by Majel Barrett as the mother
of one of _The_Next_Generation_ to set nostalgic heats a-beating.
[TNG] is, this day, approximately six weeks into production...24
one-hour episodes...

...[TNG] (budgeted at an announced $1.5 million per episode)...

...Jonathan Frakes, who portrays Commander William Riker, has often
complained that "I'm not getting laid nearly as much as Kirk did in
the old show."...

..."There's a certain amount of violence in the first episode that
I'm convinced the networks would _not_ show,... The new series is
definitely shaping up as a PG-13."...

...To everbody's satisfaction, [Michael] Westmore has created a
series of alien creatures that secrecy prevents him from detailing
extensively. He talks around one creation, something he describes as
"a creature in a box."  He begins and ends his description of the
new bad guys, the Ferengi, as "little aliens with big ears" and
clams up on something called the Traveler...

..."The old Klingons were basically out of control; creatures who
were very much slaves to duty and, in a military sense, very
disciplined.  I have those facets but there's also more substance
and diversity of character than a Klingon has been able to show so
far..." "...To give you an idea of how rigid this character is, the
closest thing to a greeting anybody gets from Worf is, 'What do you
want?'"... [Michael Dorf]

...as Picard turns to his ship's log and utters those now immortal
words:
    "Captain's log, Stardate..."

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 18:25:48 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

SNHAM@TTUVM1.BITNET writes:
> the technology for the transporter could not have been available
> at the time of Kirk and Co. were around.

No problem.  Humans didn't invent the transporter, they stole the
technology from the Klingons.  They couldn't even do it quite right,
since the Klingon device didn't waste energy in the form of sound
like the Federation's transporters.

> I agree, primarily because of the intracies of the human body.
> Transportation of inorganic material is probably an order of 2 or
> 3 times as easy than transportation of living matter, simply
> because inorganic material is not in a constant state of
> semi-random motion.

Try transporting a running complex machine, say a gas-powered
linotype...

> the proper order. And for that matter, what would be the
> consequences of putting it back together in the wrong order, say
> blood returning to the heart switched with blood leaving the
> heart? In my opinion, I just don't think

See above.

On the molecular level, of course, things would be quite a bit
stickier.  Suppose you tried transporting some complex chemical
explosive and some percentage of the chemical bonds got swapped
around...

If you could scan all the particles in a body, including their
position, velocity vectors, energy states, spins, and so on, within
a nanosecond or so, things should work pretty well.  (This will be a
take-home test for you kids in Engr. 401...)  Hey, the scanning
process seems to be destructive, what happens if you have a bad
read?  (You don't get to try again.)  Now, who wants to be the first
human test subject?

seh

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 21:15:55 GMT
From: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

From: "Michael J. Hammel" <SNHAM%TTUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> Transportation of inorganic material is probably an order of 2 or
> 3 times as easy than transportation of living matter, simply
> because inorganic material is not in a constant state of
> semi-random motion.

That's strictly on a rather gross scale.  The transporter is working
at the atomic and molecular level, where anything above absolute 0
degrees is moving about.

In order for the transporter to even being to work correctly, it
would have to know not only what kind of atom was at each particular
location, but also it's velocity vector.  I suppose to transport
things that don't have running, moving parts at the time of
transport you could "simply" store the velocity as a scalar, but
that doesn't seem to simplify the problem much.  If you can
distinguish an individual atom precisely in a framework, it's not
going to be much harder to figure out how fast it's moving and in
what direction.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!amos,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@amos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87 15:58:02 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: "Star Trekkin'" song

I've heard that "Star Trekkin'" song (the lyrics were in SF-Lovers
Digest #410) several times in the past months on the "Dr. Demento"
radio show.  (For those who don't know of this, it is a syndicated
radio show of comedy and funny or parody music. It is distributed
via the "Westwood" radio network, probably some sort of satellite
program service.)

It may be carried on an FM station in your area, but the only way I
know to discover if it is hearable locally is to call all the rock
or jazz-oriented stations until you happen to hit the one that
carries it or find someone at another station who knows about it and
is willing to tell you...

In my area (St. Louis, MO), it is on WSIE-FM (88.7) at 10 PM
Sundays.

For what its worth, I think my favorite song on this show is
"Hamster Love", a parody of "Muskrat Love" that discusses ways of
cooking hamsters.... :-)

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 10:15:45 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Star trekkin' - The Firm

>As for the song : each character had his/her own voice, and pretty
>good imitations they were too!!!  That's all for today folks!!

Watch out for the video. Not for Star Trek purists, but the animated
puppets also do good imitations.

I wonder what this says about the acting standard in the original
:-) :-) :-)

Bob

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #418
Date: 28 Sep 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #418
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #418
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 418

Today's Topics:

               Television - Max Headroom (13 msgs) &
                            Address Request & 
                            Doctor Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 02:50:55 GMT
From: mincy@think.com (Jeffrey Mincy)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

From: CJMEYERS%SUNRISE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>The season premiere of Max Headroom was on on friday, and while I
>thought that it was potentially a better produced show, the coming
>attractions worried me.  [...]  Worse than that, Max seems to be
>heading in the direction of a real character.  With his own
>personality??  WaitAMinute.  I thought that he -had- to have
>Edison's personality (since It _Was_ copied from his mind...)

I'm not sure that having Max develop into his own personality is
such a problem.  First, max could not have been an exact copy.  But
more importantly, Max and Edison have different experiences, they can
not experience the same things.  Also, Max will have an entirely
different perspective.  All of these things will affect personality.

An example of this is Jack Chalker's Well World series, where the
[mumble species] (sorry, mind block) start off as an exact copy of
someone else.  They immediately split up so that they can form their
own unique experiences.

jeff
seismo!godot.think.com!mincy

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 16:24:53 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@RUTGERS.EDU (G. Helms)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

Am I the only one to notice, or has the original grainy, Los Angeles
- Blade Runner type look disappeared from Max Headroom (for the
most part)?  The season premiere looked a little too sharp, a little
too clean from what I remembered.  What do you guys think?

Murdock

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 20:18:43 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!cooper!joseph@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Giannuzzi)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

CJMEYERS@SUNRISE.BITNET says:
> Worse than that, Max seems to be heading in the direction of a
> real character.  With his own personality??  Wait a minute.  I
> thought that he had to have Edison's personality since it was
> copied from his mind...

Max Headroom shares the same memory as Edison, but the premise all
along was that Max's personality is not as reserved as Edison's.
This has been the case since the six original episodes of last
season.  Anything that Max thinks is what Edison thinks, but Edison
doesn't always speak his mind.

Joe Gunoz
cmcl2!phri!cooper!joseph

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 23:34:24 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!kentb@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Beck)
Subject: The *NEW* Max Headroom

As I see it, the problem with the new Max is that he is no longer
about TV, he is TV.  Gone are the sly digs at the television
"culture", the insults slung at commercials, and the overdone
minicam feel of the production.  Now it is just another action show
that happens to have an AI as a character.  Sigh.

Kent Beck
Apple Computer, Inc.
20525 Mariani, MS 27E
Cupertino, CA 95014
uucp: kentb@apple.UUCP
csnet: kentb@apple.csnet
408/973-6027

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 01:10:04 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
>Am I the only one to notice, or has the original grainy, Los
>Angeles - Blade Runner type look dissappeared from Max Headroom
>(for the most part)?  The season premiere looked a little too
>sharp, a little too clean from what I remembered.  What do you guys
>think?

Last June, Network executives announced that they were going to dumb
down Max Headroom (not their words, they said something about having
less complicated plots)

Obviously the Zik-Zak corporation does not want to compete in a
marketplace where the consumers have exercised minds.

Did anyone notice that the president of Zik-Zak is named Ped Xing (a
steal/ homage from Robert Wilson's Schrodinger's Cat trilogy)?

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 21:24:11 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms):
> Am I the only one to notice, or has the original grainy, Los
> Angeles - Blade Runner type look dissappeared from Max Headroom
> (for the most part)?  The season premiere looked a little too
> sharp, a little too clean from what I remembered.  What do you
> guys think?

As I watched one of last season's reruns I noticed that same sharp
look that I usually associate with videotaped-instead-of-filmed
programs. Maybe they filmed the first two or three then changed to
tape?

Bill Wisner
..ihnp4!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 09:38:52 PDT (Friday)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

>I was a little annoyed, however, with the presence of a Message.
>Actually, I could live with the ridicule given the Star Trek III
>motto "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
>However, the muddled philosophy, reminiscent of ST I, of how
>emotion is more important than logic, the faith given to words like
>"conscience" and "right" (I'm surprised they didn't bring up "The
>American Way") bugged me.
>
>I'm looking forward to hearing how all you other SFLovers react to
>this first show.  Is this different from the first season?  Is it
>really more simplistic?

After watching the first show of MH, I have to agree that it is
possibly a little more simplistic than many of the shows from last
season.  The bit about "emotion is more important than logic" etc.
grated on my nerves as well.  The show is still not directed towards
the full mainstream of American viewers (the "Love Boat" and
"Entertainment Tonight" crowd), since it still takes some
concentration to figure out what is going on (and why), but I
realized, as I we watched, that I did not have to explain as many
things to my wife as I had to last year.

The show is still O.K., though not up to last year's standard.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 04:38:09 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!corwin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Max Headroom, the answer

There is a reason for the apparent downhill slide of Max.  It is
really quite simple (and somewhat ironic).  It is: Ratings.

There was an article in last weeks Mercury News about Max.  It
basically said that the show came in dead last in the ratings.  It
also said that it was one of the most expensive to produce.  This
bodes serious ill for any show.  The Network decided to give it
another season... with some changes.  What you see is the result.
(there is a rumor that they will be including this in the plot to a
future show -- the network ordering changes to max)

Ok?
cory
UUCP: {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!corwin
CSNET: corwin@apple.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 23:16:09 GMT
From: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season

Markjr_Palandri.SD@Xerox.COM writes:
>I'm looking forward to hearing how all you other SFLovers react to
>this first show.  Is this different from the first season?  Is it
>really more simplistic?

I thought the story line was OK, what I did object to is the way
things are narrowed, in terms of the characters available.
Actually, they were doing that last year; everytime Edison needed
some info on what was going on, anywhere, he'd go to look up his
friend with the pedi-cab.  Or in the last episode, Bryce shifts
things so that Blank Reg gets nailed.  I'd like to see more and
different characters out of that weird world.

It would also be nice if they would get someone to help them out
with the proper usage of some of the jargon they throw around.  It
really isn't hard to be accurate.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!amos,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@amos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Sep 87 19:52:25 EDT
From: Tim Margush <R1TMARG%AKRONVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Max Headroom

What is the significance of

    "20 MINUTES INTO THE FUTURE"  ?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 23:44:40 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, the answer

corwin@apple.UUCP (Someone Else) writes:
>There is a reason for the appearent downhill slide of Max.  It is
>really quite simple (and somewhat ironic).  It is: Ratings.  ...The
>Network decided to give it another season...  with some changes.
>What you see is the result.  (there is a rumor that they will be
>including this in the plot to a future show -- the network ordering
>changes to max)

On yesterday's show (Fri. Sept. 26) There was a conversation in the
network boardroom that went something like this:

Suit 1:We're losing the 5 to 11 year olds [in the ratings of a
       nparticular show]
Suit 2:Okay, we'd better simplify the characters and streamline the
       plots.
Suit 1:Agreed.

That's what I like about the show--It's so subtle.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 87 05:12:42 GMT
From: chrisa@tekig5.tek.com (Chris Andersen)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season

Did anybody notice the little throw-away dialogue in the Network 23
boardroom scene in the second show of the season (the one about the
Vu-Age Church)?

The board members were talking about some show (I forget the name)
that was not doing to well in the ratings.  Someone suggested that
the plots of the show were too complex.  The head of the network
then ordered that the show be simplified to appeal to a broader
audience.

Sounds vaguely familiar eh?

What I thought was funny about was that the way the dialogue came
out made it sound like it was ridiculing ABC for "simplifying" MH.
Opinions?

Chris Andersen
UUCP: chrisa@tekig5
w/(503) 627-4431
h/(503) 625-5936

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 03:42:22 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season

Does anybody else feel that the characters in this show are
ridiculously tolerent of nasty behaviour by other characters, in
particular Lynch?

In the first episode, Lynch created the blipvert, proclaiming that
he only made the bomb, he didn't drop it.  (In the Channel 4
original he was quite a nasty character.)

Later, at his computer console, he causes an elevator with Edison
Carter in it to plummet out of control.  He then raises the parking
gate so that Carter smashes into it on his bike.  In other words,
two deliberate attempts at remote, pre-meditated murder.  (Later, he
performs a tremendous invasion of privacy and creates the
construct.)

In the next episode, Lynch and Carter are chums?  I just found it a
bit hard to believe.

Lynch also sets up Blank Reg, and again all are great chums.

Lynch helps students wreck the network's transmissions, costing the
network millions of dollars, and he keeps his job?  Bad politics or
no, doesn't he even get a reprimand?

And Blank Reg?  One minute he's part of a conspiracy to zap all the
world's computer systems and kill Max Headroom, but he repents and
is an instant trusted pal.

What about the executives at Network 23?  First the chairman of the
board tries to get him killed.  Next a board member is part of a
conspiracy to kill a young woman to save an older woman's life.
Cheviet, the new chairman, is never very fun.  Last week, a board
member arranges for the kidnap and destruction of Max Headroom.

Wouldn't you switch jobs?

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 02:19:51 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!milo@RUTGERS.EDU (Greg Corson)
Subject: DIC animation address

Would anyone out there happen to have a mailing address for the
D.I.C.  animation company?  These are the people who do "The Real
Ghostbusters" and quite a few other shows as well.

Thanks!

Greg Corson
19141 Summers Drive
South Bend, IN 46637
(219) 277-5306 (weekdays till 6pm central)
{pur-ee,rutgers,uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!milo

------------------------------

Date: Thursday 24 Sep 87 2:20 PM CT
From: Jacob Hugart <GWCHUGPG%UIAMVS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Blooper/Marter/Trial

Bloopers:
    I recall a short clip on some network show here called (was it
Foulups, ??? and Bloopers?), and it showed some actors from an
English TV show stopping a horse-drawn cart in front of a covered
bridge, getting out of the cart and going over the bridge, and
having the horse follow them on the bridge.  I thought it looked
familiar, then I relaized it was from episode two of
_The_Awakening_!  If that is the blooper that NUTTO@UMASS.BITNET
writes about, it is short one.

Ian Marter:
    Well, so far we have two diabetic shocks and one heart attack.
Surely someone must have caught the obit?  Oh well, morbid curiosity
was ever bizarre.

Trial of a Time-Lord:
    Sorry Kevin Grazier, but I have never heard of
_The_Robots_of_Ravalox_.  _The_Mysterious_Planet_ sounds better.
Esthetics over facts.

Jacob Hugart
GWCHUGPG@UIAMVS.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87  13:45:14 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: I found this article in a copy of The London Times.

Monday September 7 1987
Television And Radio                           Compiled by Peter Dear
                                                    and Peter Davalle
INTO THE EGG BOX FUTURE
   I have seen the future. Outdoors, it all looks like a stone
quarry near Reading, and inside like a gas showroom. Yes, Doctor Who
(BBC1, 7.35pm) is back. Part of its enduring appeal is, I suppose,
that no show about the future has looked less, well, futuristic. The
technology makes Dan Dare by comparison look positively
Spielbergian. Sets appear cobbled together from egg boxes and
oven-foil; the costumes are an extraordinary mixture of lurex and
tartan (the most expensive thing about the props' budget are the
colours); and aliens sport Bagwan togas and hair-dos that resemble a
cross between Rod Stewart circa 1976 and a Davy Crockett hat.  The
new Doctor, the seventh, is Sylvester McCoy, a thin man's version of
Robert Morley. Given such surroundings, it is hard for the actors
not to camp it up, and McCoy, Kate O'Mara, as the arch-villainess,
and Bonnie Langford, as the Doctor's assistant, duly oblige,
delivering their lines with all the gusto of pantomime.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 20:27:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!acf4!percus@RUTGERS.EDU (Allon G. Percus)
Subject: Re: History of the Doctor Who Universe

>>2. What are the official BBC names of the Trial of a Time Lord
>>season?  I believe they are constantly referred to as Story One,
>>Story Two, etc., but in DWM there have been titles mentioned: The
>>Mysterious Planet, Mindwarp, Terror of the Vervoids, The Ultimate
>>Foe, Trial of a Time Lord, etc.  The first two of the (three?
>>four?)  stories I believe are called The Mysterious Planet and
>>Mindwarp, but the title of the final story (or two?) is vague.
>
> Trial of a Time Lord:
>
> 1. The Robots of Ravalox
> 2. Mindwarp
> 3. Terror of the Vervoids
> 4. The Ultimate Foe

I think you have the older names for #1 and #4.  Now, it is as
follows:

1. The Mysterious Planet
2. Mindwarp
3. Terror of the Vervoids
4. The Judgement

However, there are no "official" BBC titles, aside from the
collective title "The Trial of A Time Lord."  The names mentioned
above were simply used in production.

A. G. Percus
(ARPA) percus@acf4.nyu.edu
(BITnet) percus%acf4@nyuacf.bitnet
(UUCP) ...{ihnp4|harvard|rutgers|seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #419
Date: 28 Sep 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #419
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #419
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 419

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Fantasy & Nebulas &
                                Maryland Renaissance Festival &
                                Psi Powers (5 msgs) &
                                Private Roads &
                                Phantom of the Opera &
                                What is SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 87 18:48:23 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: The Falling Woman, by Pat Murphy; and "the New Fantasy"

>>I thought I'd put in a brash plug for a book that just hit
>>paperback that I think is really neat. The title is "The Falling
>>Woman" and it is by Pat Murphy, her second novel. It is a
>>contemporary fantasy [...]
>
>I just finished it and found it pretty neat.  Fantasy that isn't
>earth-shattering.
>
>Question.  Inside the cover quotes Lucius Shepard: "The Falling
>Woman ... exemplif[ies] what is best in the New Fantasy ..."
>
>What is the New Fantasy?  Where did this term spring up from?  What
>other New Fantasy books should I read?

Well, I won't try to second guess Lucius Shepard (much) but since my
personal preference is Fantasy, I can take a few swipes.

To attempt to define New Fantasy, we should first define Old
Fantasy. A one word definition would probably 'Tolkien' but that
would be overly simplistic.

Old Fantasy, in my eyes, would be the traditional Fantasies: High
Fantasy, Arthurian Fantasy, the 12th century Celtic quest novel
knight in shining armor long time ago in a fantasy far, far away
kind of Fantasy. Pomp and Splendour Fantasy.

The Arthur, Celtic, Tolkien style.

There's been a strong expansion of Fantasy in the last few years,
and with it a number of new flavors of Fantasy. There's also been a
(long deserved) backlash against Tolkien Clones and Generic Celtic
Quests. The two areas that are growing the strongest are the
Historical Fantasy (Harry Turtledove's Lost Legion Series and
Poul&Karen Anderson's Gallicenae series, for instance) and
contemporary Fantasy (Falling Woman and Emma Bull's War for the
Oaks). Not so coincidentally, the next issue of OtherRealms will
have an article by Turtledove on Historical Fantasy.

My feeling, though, is that when Shepard is talking about New
Fantasy, he's looking at the Contemporary Fantasy. The author takes
a current, modern day society and melds a Fantastic element into it,
as opposed to building a Fantastic world and trying to make it real.
In "Falling Woman" Murphy takes the gritty reality of a Mayan
Archeological dig and superimposes something that could be
Fantasy/Magic/Ghosties and could be a woman's psychological breakup.
She never really delineates one or the other, although she makes it
very easy to believe the Fantasy, you don't have to.

Bull takes a slightly different approach, and builds a Faerie world
underneath and around our reality. She then shoves a typical modern
person into the middle of it and forces her to come to terms with
it. In both places we're talking about real places, real people
populating them, and just enough of a twist into the Fantastic (I'd
almost call it surreal) to make it fascinating.

To me, that's 'New Fantasy.' And more than enough rambling to start
a decent conversation...

your turn.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 87 14:27:46 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Nebula Ignoring Analog
Cc: PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET

> Did anyone else notice that the Nebula award nominations this year
> did not include a single story published in _Analog_?  Did
> _Analog_ have an off year?  Not a chance.  _Analog_ published the
> (far and away) best novella of the year: 'Eifelheim' by Michael
> Flynn.

I think you'll find that the SFWA and the Nebula awards are oriented
towards parts of the field that are new. No offense to Analog, but
it is publishing the same kind of story it was publishing 20 years
ago. More polished, but it is still the same hard core SF nuts and
bolts story. (Stan Schmidt not only admits it, he's proud of it).

There is very little experimentation in Analog, very little breaking
ground, very little extension of the field. Those are the sorts of
things the Nebula voters are interested in and vote for, so it isn't
surprising that Analog falls short. Analog fiction, these days, is
very conservative and very safe.  You know exactly what you'll get
in every issue.

And if you talk to the writers, they do read Analog, but they
usually use words like 'boring' when they mention the magazine --
not because the stories are necessarily boring, but because the
magazine itself is.

> A final argument against lack of quality in _Analog_ is their
> strong showing in the Hugo nominations.

Not necessarily. The Hugo award has a strong popularity part to it
(if you don't believe that, ask the folks at Bridge). Since Analog
has twice the readers of any other magazine (except Omni, which is
sort of outside the field, more or less, kind of), it only makes
sense that Analog stories will be more widely read and remembered by
the folks voting for Hugos.

This isn't necessarily saying that either of these are right. The
fact that Analog has twice the subscribers of IASFM shows that Stan
Schmidt is doing something right (especially since readership is up
a bit over the last couple of years instead of down). At the same
time, though, the kind of fiction he's publishing isn't the kind of
fiction that interests the folks at the SFWA in general, because it
isn't literarily interesting. I think this is a case where both the
Hugo and the Nebula are right -- once you take into consideration
the biases that go into awarding them.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Sep 87 14:24:14 EDT
From: Tom Uffner <tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu>
Subject: Maryland Renaissance Festival

If this is not quite appropriate here, sorry.  Could someone please
send me where, when and any other pertinent information on this
year's Maryland Renaissance Festival. Please reply to me since I
don't receive this bboard (yet).

tom

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 16:53:30 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Psi-powers

From: Aaron Eisenfeld <aeisenfe@COL.BBN.COM>
>As I am relatively new to SF-LOVERS this may be an already
>exhausted topic. But please bear with me. I really enjoy the use of
>mind or psi powers in the fantasy/sf books that I have read. Some
>specific examples...  enjoys reading about this sub-genre? Can
>anyone reccommend more books along this vein?

The first ones that come to mind are Katherine Kurtz's "Deryni"
series.  There are currently three trilogies: The Chronicles of the
Deryni, The Legend of Saint Camber, and The Histories of King
Kelson.  There is also _The Deryni Archives_ which is a set of short
stories which fill in some gaps in the novels.

The setting is a close parallel of Medieval Europe, primarily the
British Isles, with some eastern cultures on the periphery.  The
Deryni are an offshoot race of humans with various psionic powers
ranging from conjuring light to teleportation to telepathy to
psionic healing.

Kurtz is a very talented author, who pays a lot of attention to her
characters and settings, as well as giving good action.  The first
series has some rough edges, but after that she has become extremely
polished.  Everyone I know who's read these loves them.

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 12:58:51 EDT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA
Subject: The pronuniation and derivation of PSI

   I have been an SF fan for years. I wondered about this but never
asked.

   1) What is the proper pronunciation of "psi" as in psi powers
     (psionics etc)

   2) I know that psi is a Greek letter and I realize that many
      words of Greek derivation begin with psy (psychologist,
      psychiatrist etc) but I'd like a bit more information - why is
      "psi" associated with mental - psychic - mystical powers?

Jerry Freedman,Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Tue 22 Sep 87 21:57:44-CDT
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Psi stories opinion

I personally find many "psi stories" distasteful because I often get
the impression that the author believes strongly in psychic
phenomenon and uses the story as a vehicle to grind this axe.  Being
skeptical of psi myself, I don't enjoy getting told (subtly or
blatantly) "we all have psi powers" etc, but I think even if I
believed in them, many of these stories' blunt preachiness would
turn me off.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 16:56:17 GMT
From: pam@hpsrla.hp.com (Pam Woods)
Subject: Re: Psi-powers

The Darkover novels by Marion Zimmer Bradley are good, however she's
been writing them over the course of her career and some are better
than others.  (I usually check out the copyright date, the more
recent the better.)

Zenna Henderson wrote a series on the 'People', who come from a
different planet when theirs blew up or something.  These are
collections of short stories.

Chocky by John Wyndham.  This might not be strictly psi powers--it's
been a while since I read it.

Pam (give me a good book an I'll be up all night) Woods

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 02:29:13 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: The pronuniation and derivation of PSI

jfjr@mitre-bedford.ARPA writes:
>2) I know that psi is a Greek letter and I realize that many words
>   of Greek derivation begin with psy (psychologist, psychiatrist
>   etc) but I'd like a bit more information - why is "psi"
>   associated

In a partial answer, "psi" has long been an ideogram for Greek
_psyche_, spirit, a concept also connected with breath. In the
Gospel, the Risen Christ breathes on the apostles, saying "Receive
the gift of the holy spirit". In commemoration of this, the
traditional liturgy of the Easter vigil contains a rite where the
priest breathes on the baptismal water to be consecrated in the
shape of a "psi".

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 03:16:02 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: Private Roads

hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
>>[my posting about private roads]
> Two stories were written by Larry Niven which approach parts of
> that he describes:
>
> "Cloak of Anarchy" deals with a case where internal combustion
> engines have been outlawed, and the San Diego Freeway has been
> turned into a free park, where no laws hold except to forbit
> assaulting another (you can even build and operate an internal
> combustion engine if you want to).
>
> The other story deals (incidentally) more with the idea of a
> lawless automobile road.  [...]

Thanks to all who mentioned related stories, including the Ellison
one and "Why Johnny Can't Speed" (A.D. Foster).  This whole idea (of
basically lawless combat-oriented roadways) is the premise of the
game "Car Wars", published by Steve Jackson Games.  I was wondering
about other aspects, though, particularly anything anyone knows
about private roads.
   I've been told that freeways (such as the N.J. Turnpike) were
originally privately owned, but that when the U.S. Government
decided interstate commerce was their business, the private owners
couldn't compete (their prices were too high).  This was, of course,
before speed limits; supposedly, the real-life private road deal is
supposed to be for speed freaks (i.e., the federal speed limit
shouldn't apply on private property).  Can anyone tell me anything
relevant about PRIVATELY-OWNED roads?  One person (sorry, don't have
your posting on hand at the moment) did say that signing away rights
would be highly frowned upon.  What about races or organized sport-
type things?  I know there are many examples of this SORT of things
extant: Rollerball, the driving stories abovementioned, Combat
Football, Tenth Victim, and so on; the main difference that I can
see is the involvement of private ownership/property...
   And if I'm making a big deal out of nothing new, feel free to
tell me that, too (but route through e-mail, please).

jed hartman
...{{seismo,ihnp4}!bpa,cbmvax!vu-vlsi,sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87  22:24 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Phantom of the Opera

Mark R. Leeper (mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU) gives a very good
review to THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, the Andrew LLoyd Webber musical
slated to arrive on Broadway in January - I second this 100%.  This
is without doubt the best musical I have ever seen.

A word for those thinking of getting tickets: the best seats for
this are probably the front Mezzanine.  If you in Orchestra but
under the overhang of the Mezzanine you miss some of the stuff that
goes on at the top of the stage.  Tickets are selling at about
400,000 a day for the NY version - don't wait!

And just to show how small a world it really is....  Mark, where
were you sitting?  I was sitting about five rows back and to the
left of Margaret Thatcher at what I suspect was the same performance
- the evening of Monday August 24th?  And I only paid 14 pounds....

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 03:05:18 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: First sf

hester@ICSE.UCI.EDU writes:
> I agree that it's difficult to define what _is_ SF and what is
> not.  We'll never get a consensus on that one, but it might be fun
> hearing what people think.
>
> Here's one of my most basic rules:
>
> Jed Hartman's Dr Seuss example stems from defining SF as anything
> which deals with a world pretty much believed not to exist.  Such
> a definition rules out Fantasy as a seperate genera.  I
> differentiate them by saying that both deal with non-existant
> worlds, but SF attempts to present a world which COULD exist,
> according to the state of our scientific knowledge and a minor bit
> of argument about new developements.

(discussion of definitions, and Odyssey as SF)

> Let's hear how some other people define SF, and (really the same
> question) how they differientate it from other genera (fantasy,
> horror, thriller, etc.).

Another round on the "What is sf?" topic?  OK: I personally use the
term "sf" (pronounced "ess eff") to mean "speculative fiction",
including both fantasy and science fiction.  I occasionally use
"f&sf" to mean the same thing, but I try to avoid that unless I'm
talking about the magazine.  I think there are too many crossovers
and borderline cases to classify fantasy and science fiction as
separate genres.  Granted, there are works that are definitely
fantasy (e.g., _Lord_of_the_Rings_), and others that are definitely
science fiction (e.g., _Ringworld_) (and no flames on my choices of
examples, please; I think it's obvious what I mean).  Other genres I
separate by content: horror is meant to scare, thrillers are meant
to thrill (I guess) (and some of those have science fiction
elements, but the emphasis is different from that of more usual
science fiction), mysteries involve crimes or sleuthing, and so on.
   Of course, there are also works that have elements from several
genres (science fiction mysteries, e.g., or the Lord D'Arcy (sp?)
books).  My personal preference is to use "sf" for anything dealing
with blatantly nonexistent worlds; I do not force this term on
others or even particularly advocate its use, so please don't flame
me for it.  Just understand that that's what *I* mean, and I'll try
to indicate that clearly in future postings on the subject.
   (My father once printed out a BBS list for me at the place he
worked.  A co-worker saw the list (which included a couple of
"science fiction/ fantasy BBS's") and worried aloud that I was
involved in X-rated stuff (that was the only association he had with
the word "fantasy"...))

jed hartman
...{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi, sun!liberty}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #420
Date: 28 Sep 87 1009-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #420
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 87 1009-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #420
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 420

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Niven (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 15:29:16 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Niven novels

friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> In _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_, ....  But in
> _A_World_Out_of_Time_, ...
>
> My question is, are those stories supposed to be in the same
> "universe"?

No, they are not.  As I heard it, Niven had essentially written
himself into a dramatic corner in "Known Space" (the luck genes), so
he switched to the universe of "the State" in AWOOT (and its
precessor short stories).

Is THE INTEGRAL TREES part of the universe of "the State", or is it
yet another one?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames,harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 17:48:47 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: Niven novels

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt) writes:
>friedman@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>> In _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_, ....  But in
>> _A_World_Out_of_Time_, ...
>> My question is, are those stories supposed to be in the same
>> "universe"?
>No, they are not.  As I heard it, Niven had essentially written
>himself into a dramatic corner in "Known Space" (the luck genes),
>so he switched to the universe of "the State" in AWOOT (and its
>precessor short stories).
>
>Is THE INTEGRAL TREES part of the universe of "the State", or is it
>yet another one?

Given the personality-impressed computer in I.T. and SMOKE RING, and
the computer trying to make good little Citizens of the Ring
inhabitants, one would have to assume it is set in the same
universe.

Bob Halloran
UUCP: {ATT-ACC, rutgers}!mtune!rkh
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857
home ph: (201)251-7514

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 05:09:19 GMT
From: erc@tybalt.caltech.edu (Eric R. Christian)
Subject: Re: Niven novels

cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt) writes:
>Is THE INTEGRAL TREES part of the universe of "the State", or is it
>yet another one?

I don't have my books here, but doesn't the intelligent ship in
_The_Integral_ Trees_ and _The_Smoke_Ring_ say that he is Kelsey (or
something.  I don't remember the name) for the State.

Eric Christian
erc@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 21:05:05 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

From: "Wm. L. Ranck" <RANCK%VTVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I remeber Louis Wu as a detective with a strong aversion to travel
>by vehicle.  I believe there is a series of these stories, but my
>memories are about 20 years old on this.  Perhaps one of the
>bibliogrophers of the SF-lovers group can fill in the details.
>   I'd sort of like to track down those stories myself.

Louis Wu is Niven's Hero of the Ringworld Novels as well as some of
his other short stories.  He's also related to that other famous
space explorer, Beowulf Shaeffer.  I think that Shaeffer is Wu's
father, but I can't remember for sure.  I expect that there will be
a lot of replies to this one.

Alexander B. Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 13:04:00 GMT
From: umix!apollo!reynolds_l@RUTGERS.EDU (Lee Reynolds)
Subject: Niven's universes....

   Hokay, let's see.....

    A world out of time....
    The integral trees.....
    The smoke ring.... .......are all from the universe of "The State"
    Ringworld, Engineers and much of his earlier stuff are all in
the "Known Space" series.
    "A night on Mispec Moor" and quite a few others (look for monks,
smithpeople et. al.)  including the collection "Off Limits" are set
in a third universe which doesn't seem to have been named by author
or fen but which I refer to as "Cabell's Universe"......
    The names and some concepts are drawn from the stories of James
Branch Cabell which Uncle Larry seems to have quite a liking for.
(Does "Jaybee Corbell" sound like another name you can think of?)
    Oh, the there's the stuff in the (Ex) CoDominion empire and
suchlike.....
    Incidentally - I liked Integral Trees but think Smoke Ring
sucked - any other opinions?

Lee Reynolds

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 22:03:54 GMT
From: leech@unc.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Niven's universes....

reynolds_l@apollo.uucp (Lee Reynolds) writes:
>    "A night on Mispec Moor" and quite a few others (look for
>monks, smithpeople et. al.)  including the collection "Off Limits"
>are set in a third universe which doesn't seem to have been named
>by author or fen but which I refer to as "Cabell's Universe"......
>    The names and some concepts are drawn from the stories of James
>Branch Cabell which Uncle Larry seems to have quite a liking for.
>(Does "Jaybee Corbell" sound like another name you can think of?)

    I believe this universe has been referred to as the ``Leshey
(sp?)  Circuit'' in one of Niven's books, perhaps Tales of Known
Space.

>    Oh, the there's the stuff in the (Ex) CoDominion empire and
>suchlike.....

    That's Pournelle's universe originally.

Jon Leech
leech@cs.unc.edu
...mcnc!unc!leech

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 20:31:26 GMT
From: bcd@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bryan Dunlap)
Subject: Re: Niven novels

Comprises the beginning of the book, Rammer, do not fit into the
Known Space series.  Neither do some of his other works, especially
a number of the short stories.

Let's see, Known Space includes:

   World of Ptavvs
   Protector
   A Gift from Earth
   Ringworld
   Ringworld Engineers
   Tales of Known Space (short stories)
   The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton (I think)
   The Patchwork Girl (ditto)
   Neutron Star (maybe not all of the stories)

This is compiled from memory.  I'm sure someone out there can
correct any omissions or errors.

...cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!bcd
bcd@ohio-state.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87 02:05:18 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Niven
To: friedman@M.CS.UIUC.EDU

From: friedman@m.cs.uiuc.edu
> In _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_, we learn of an explosion
> at the galactic core ...
>
> But in _A_World_Out_of_Time_ ...

_A World Out of Time_ is not part of his known space series.  It is
part of a separate future history which also includes _The Integral
Trees_ and its sequel, _The Smoke Ring_.

Also, there are TWO versions of known space, depending on whether
you accept his _Down in Flames_ (never published, but available from
SF-Lovers) as real.  If you do, the core explosion never really
happened.

...Keith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87 08:10:46 EDT
From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Jim White)
Subject: Known Space vs The State

H. George Freidman writes;
>In _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_, we learn of an explosion
>at the galactic core that should reach the vicinity of Sol and
>Earth in 20,000 years, and should make Earth uninhabitable.  But in
>_A_World_Out_of_Time_, J. B. Corbell undergoes relativistic time
>dilation that puts him 3,000,000 years into the future, and we
>learn that Earth has been continuously inhabited all that time.
>
>My question is, are those stories supposed to be in the same
>"universe"?  And if they are, has Niven ever reconciled the apparent
>contradiction?

A World Out of Time is NOT part of the Known Space series. My
recollection is that it's part of the 'The State' series, of which
The Integral Trees belongs. I have a book of Short stories, either
Tales of Known Space, or Neutron Star that list the books in the
Known Space series and puts them chrono-order.

I wouldn't try to relate them. Unless Niven is into the same kind of
self (and reader) abuse that Asimov is..... he won't either.

Jim White

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87 15:31:57 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time
To: friedman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

_A_World_out_of_Time_ is not part of the "Known Space" series.  So
the answer to your question, "are those stories supposed to be in
the same universe?" is "no".

AWooT is in the same universe as The Integral Trees.  Although I
haven't heard an official name given to the universe, I tend to
think of it as "the State" series.  The first part of that book was
originally published as a short story, whose name, unfortunately,
eludes me at the moment (I'm at school and my SF collection is at
home).

William LeFebvre
Department of Computer Science
Rice University
phil@Rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 01:10:39 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Niven

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
>Also, there are TWO versions of known space, depending on whether
>you accept his _Down in Flames_ (never published, but available
>from SF Lovers) as real.  If you do, the core explosion never
>really happened.

   According to Larry at last years Chattacon (Jan. 17th or so,
1987) "Down in Flames" was a thought exercise that kind of...
well...  you know, got out of hand.  It was (is) not intended to
really be a part of the KS universe.  He said that he no longer has
a copy of it, that (as best I understood the narrative) he *gave* it
to someplace in Austin.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 19:35:54 GMT
From: hao!udenva!agranok@RUTGERS.EDU (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Niven novels

erc@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Eric R. Christian) writes:
>cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cthulhu's Jersey Epopt) writes:
>>Is THE INTEGRAL TREES part of the universe of "the State", or is
>>it yet another one?
>
>I don't have my books here, but doesn't the intelligent ship in
>_The_Integral_ Trees_ and _The_Smoke_Ring_ say that he is Kelsey
>(or something.  I don't remember the name) for the State.

There is a story in which someone (I can't even remember the
person's name) is revived in the body of a corpsicle (frozen
body--supposedly under suspended animation) and is trained to pilot
a ramship.  I seem to remember that it was his "Duty to the State"
or something really close to that.  Now, since Gil Hamilton of Known
Space was intimately involved with corpsicles and similar things,
this could mean that the Integral Trees and Smoke Ring are in the
same universe.  In the final analysis, though, I don't think that
it's really important which universe it is in.  The novels are
complete enough by themselves and don't seem to bear any relevance
on the Known Space stuff, anyway.

Alexander B. Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 18:11:26 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok writes:
>Louis Wu is Niven's Hero of the Ringworld Novels as well as some of
>his other short stories.

Louis Wu appears in exactly ONE other Niven story: "There is a
Tide".

>He's also related to that other famous space explorer, Beowulf
>Shaeffer.  I think that Shaeffer is Wu's father, but I can't
>remember for sure.

If you are referring to the incident mentioned in "The Borderland of
Sol", wherein Carlos Wu impregnates Bey's wife Sharrol, since they
(Bey and Sharrol) cannot have children of their own (Bey is albino
and thus inferior breeding stock), I think that you are drawing the
wrong conclusion.

My memory of the chronology in one of Niven's collections is a bit
vague right now, but Ringworld takes place in the year 2230.  The
stories of Beowulf Shaeffer take place in the mid-2100's.  This
would mean that Louis would have to have aged 200 years in about 100
years time.

I also find it hard to believe that Bey would name "his" child Wu
and not Shaeffer.

We never find out how old Carlos is, but I suspect that Louis is
Carlos's son, born far before Carlos did the favor for Bey.

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
(415) 857-6236

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 16:18:29 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Niven novels

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
> There is a story in which someone (I can't even remember the
> person's name) is revived in the body of a corpsicle (frozen
> body--supposedly under suspended animation) and is trained to
> pilot a ramship.  I seem to remember that it was his "Duty to the
> State" or something really close to that.  Now, since Gil Hamilton
> of Known Space was intimately involved with corpsicles and similar
> things, this could mean that the Integral Trees and Smoke Ring are
> in the same universe.

I assume you meant to say "The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton and The
Integral Trees are in the same universe", or something like that.  I
think it was earlier established that Smoke Ring was a sequel to
Integral Trees, so is naturally in the same universe.

So, assuming that my invented quote *is* what you meant to say,
well, it *could* mean that, but it probably doesn't.  Does every
story that uses "hyperdrive" have to occur in the same universe?
How about "drouds"?  (How about "Cthulhu"?  Well...)

"Corpsicle" is just Niven's invented slang for a cryogenically
preserved body.  Such bodies exist in the real world, so any number
of future universes spun off of this world could develop the same
slang term.  Same with a projected technological invention, such as
hyperdrive or drouds.  But when a *character* invented for one book
appears or is mentioned in another, that's pretty hard evidence (to
me) that these two books are in the same, exact universe.

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 15:27:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: NIVEN

H. George Firedman asked in #413 about Niven novels and Known Space.
I do not think that A WORLD OUT OF TIME is part of his Known Space
Universe.  To be sure of what is in it, take a look at TALES OF
KNOWN SPACE.  At the beginning of this book there is a timeline
which lists the stories that belong to the series and where they fit
in and possibly what collections they came from.  The only questions
of books would be ones which were written since this book.
RINGWORLD AND RINGWORLD ENGINEERS belong as does THE PATCHWORK GIRL
which is a Gil Hamilton book.  To the best of my knowledge he has
not written any other Known Space novels or stories since then.  If
anyone has better information I would like to see it.  Also, if
someone has TALES OF KNOWN SPACE handy, it would be nice to see the
timeline.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@UMCINCOM
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 23:26:04 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Integral Trees and Smoke Rings

reynolds_l@apollo.uucp (Lee Reynolds) writes:
>Incidentally - I liked Integral Trees but think Smoke Ring sucked -
>any other opinions?

Just the opposite.  I found The Integral Trees pretty boring -- it
felt like Niven was churning out words according to formula.  In The
Smoke Ring, he seemed to get interested in his work again.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 28-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #421
Date: 28 Sep 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #421
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 28 Sep 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #421
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 28 Sep 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 421

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - FTL Travel (3 msgs) &
                               Time Dilation (3 msgs) &
                               How To Store Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 00:45:21 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: FTL travel
To: "PSIVAX!CSUN!CSUNB!BCPHSSRW@ELROY.JPL.NASA.GOV"@AI.AI.MIT.EDU,
To:    
To: "PSIVAX!CSUN!CSUNB!BCPHSSRW@JPLPRO.JPL.NASA.GOV"@AI.AI.MIT.EDU,
To:     hplabs!csun!csunb!bcphssrw@RUTGERS.EDU
Cc: Space@ANGBAND.S1.GOV, Physics@UNIX.SRI.COM

There are several ways around the relativistic paradoxes for FTL:

1) There may be an absolute frame of reference.  Speeds up to
infinite would be possible only in that frame of reference.  In
other frames of references, the speed limit might vary from, say -2c
(!) to 2c, depending on direction.  No trajectory would ever get you
back to your starting point before you left.

2) It may be that the speed of light can be increased in a region of
space, somehow.

3) It may be that causality CAN be violated.  Doing so simply causes
a new universe to branch off.  This would allow time travel as well
as space travel, though time travelers might have a hard time
returning home.  See, for instance, F.M. Busby's _All These Earths_
and Paul Preuss' _Re-Entry_.

4) Same as 3, except that causality violations would cause history
to start over from that point, wiping out the "previous" future.
Like restoring a file system to a previous state.  See, for
instance, James Hogan's _Thrice Upon a Time_.

Of course none of these gives us any hint as to how to go about
building an FTL drive.  But it isn't obvious that it is impossible.

And, of course, we can get to the stars just fine even without FTL.
Just be patient while traveling to a nearby star.  Or use generation
ships, suspended animation, life extention, or relativistic time
contraction, to name just a few possibilities.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: 23 September 1987 12:02:54 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: FTL (Re:  Life in Space, continued...)

Keith F. Lynch <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU> writes:
>I am not so sure that FTL is even possible, for any technology.  If
>I were writing a book like this, I would try to avoid FTL.

I don't mean to single Keith out: this is intended to rebut all
those who think FTL contradicts science as we know it (including
Isaac Asimov).  I recently read _QED: The Strange Theory of Light
and Matter_ by Nobel laureate Richard Feynman.  In _QED_, he gives a
non-technical, yet completely accurate account of the basic elements
of quantum electrodynamics, the theory which 'describes _all_ the
phenomena of the physical world except the gravitational effect, ...
and radioactive phenomena ...'  The only simplifications Feynman
makes are to ignore polarization and to skip the math (he shows how
the calculations are motivated, then just reports the results).
Although _QED_ isn't fiction, I highly recommend this book to SF
readers.  There were a lot of things in _QED_ that I had read about
before; it was nice to read about them without the distortions that
'popularizers' introduced in an attempt to make things simple.  But
one thing that surprised me was that even light doesn't travel at
the speed of light!  In QED (the theory, not the book), there is a
probability for photons to travel at speeds faster or slower than
_c_.  At 'long' distances, these probabilities become vanishingly
small, but at short distances, photons and electrons can (and must)
travel at all speeds, even traveling backwards in time!  Earlier in
_QED_, Feynman shows how diffraction gratings work by selectively
amplifying the probability that light of a certain wavelength will
be reflected in a particular direction.  It is conceivable (although
perhaps not feasible) that we can selectively amplify the
probability that photons and electrons (and other particles?) will
travel at speeds in excess of _c_.  Perhaps this is why David Brin,
who has a Ph.D. in physics, refers to his FTL drive as a probability
drive: it presumably operates by this mechanism.

Thus the possibility for FTL is apparently permitted by what has
been called the most accurate scientific theory that is currently
accepted.  And of course, science as we know it is only our current
understanding of the universe -- how do we know what we may yet
discover?

I also recommend _Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman!_, a hilarious
collection of autobiographical anecdotes.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 19:52:10 GMT
From: CLT%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: FTL travel

Ursula K LeGuin had an interesting way of handling FTL.  Sure,
robots and such can drive FTL ships, but there's a catch: FTL travel
kills living things.  No-one knows why, it just does.  Read
_The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness_ for more detail.  (Also, the book won
both the Nebula and the Hugo.)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 05:11:17 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Flames, Brooks, Time-Dilation

I have noticed (noticed is a bad word for this) that a lot of people
on this board and in the rest of the world in general chuch around
the term "Relativistic Time Dilation/Contraction" etc. Tons and tons
of SF has been based on the idea that "If we go really really really
fast, we won't age as quickly..." to get to other stars or make a
trip out and return to Earth millenia later or whatever.

The fact is, this time dilation effect doesn't really exist!
Einstein originally thought it was a result of his general theory of
relativity. Later he saw that it didn't fit in, so he tried to make
it fit by saying it was the acceleration, not the velocity achieved,
that dilated the time. Finally, he saw that he was just plain
mistaken, and that time dilation didn't make sense, but by then it
had caught on with the masses so much it seems people still believe
it is possible today.

Think about it: when you say "The spaceship is travelling really
really really fast," what does this mean? Fast in relation to what?
The Earth? I suppose that is what people are thinking here, but who
is to say that it is not the Earth that is moving AWAY from the
spaceship, and that all that acceleration the ship has undergone is
really deceleration from the velocity the Earth was travelling when
it took off.

The problem is, what reference frame are you using? In the open
vastness of the universe, "velocity" is meaningless except as
considered as relative to the motions of all the rest of the matter
in the universe. It makes no sense whatsoever to choose the Earth as
some kind of priviledged reference frame that is moving at "0" so
that as your spaceship accelerates you could claim that now it is
moving "faster" than all those unlucky people who are aging away at
the blink of an eye down on Earth's surface. It is just as logical
to say the spaceship is moving at 0 velocity and the Earth is
plunging on through the cosmos at some ridiculous speed near that of
light.  In this case, it would be the planetbound people who age
slower, and the spaceship would never make it to the nearest star,
nay, not even to the MOON before all of its crew have crumbled away
to dust.

What time dilation really IS: People in 2 different reference frames
that are accelerating AWAY from each other LOOK (to the people in
the OTHER frame) as if they are aging slower. When the people in
reference frame A look out their proverbial porthole at the clock on
the dashboard of reference frame B's spaceship (obviously with a
very powerful telescope :-), they SEE B's clock moving more slowly
than A's own. If people in B look at A's clock, the people in B will
ASLO see the other's (A's) clock moving slower than their own.

This is because the light from the "other" reference frame takes
longer and longer to reach the observer in "this" reference frame as
the frames get farther and farther apart. Time has not altered --
instead, something very like the Doppler Effect with sound is
happening with light. If spaceship A and spaceship B fly back to
meet each other, they will find that their clocks are still
synchronized and that they have all aged the same amount.  No
alteration of the flow of time has occurred, it just LOOKS that way
when you look outside of your own reference frame. Bring the two
reference frames together (into one reference frame) and the
illusion vanishes.

I apologize for my longwindedness, but it just bothers the heck out
of me that even lots of SCIENTISTS (e.g. Asimov) use this "effect"
in fiction (and in at least one case and I am sure many more, Asimov
has described it in *factual* books) without realizing that it makes
no sense whatsoever.

I know thousands of you are going to contradict me on this one, but
just think about it and it should be obvious where "time dilation"
fails to make logical sense: it assumes that Earth is some kind of
priviledged reference frame, an assumption with absolutely no basis
in *this* reality...

Kev
..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 17:44:43 GMT
From: ames!aurora!barry@RUTGERS.EDU (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Flames, Brooks, Time-Dilation

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>The fact is, this time dilation effect doesn't really exist!
>Einstein originally thought it was a result of his general theory
>of relativity. Later he saw that it didn't fit in, so he tried to
>make it fit by saying it was the acceleration, not the velocity
>achieved, that dilated the time. Finally, he saw that he was just
>plain mistaken, and that time dilation didn't make sense, but by
>then it had caught on with the masses so much it seems people still
>believe it is possible today.

   First off, time dilation is predicted by the Special Theory of
Relativity, not the General Theory. Second, it was predicted
mathematically by Lorenz, Fitzgerald and others before Einstein
published the theory, and though they didn't interpret the meaning
of their equations as time dilation, Einstein showed that this was
the correct interpretation, and the equations (the Lorenz
transformations) stand to this day.

>Think about it: when you say "The spaceship is travelling really
>really really fast," what does this mean? Fast in relation to what?
>The Earth? I suppose that is what people are thinking here, but who
>is to say that it is not the Earth that is moving AWAY from the
>spaceship, and that all that acceleration the ship has undergone is
>really deceleration from the velocity the Earth was travelling when
>it took off.

   It doesn't matter. Acceleration and deceleration are the same
thing. The velocity is in reference to whatever frame of reference
(non-accelerated) you choose to use, and the time dilation is in
reference to that frame of reference. If your frame of reference is
moving along with the ship, you'll see the earth's clocks slow. If
it's moving with the earth, you'll see the ship's clocks slow. What
prevents paradox is that one or the other, the ship or the planet,
will have to *accelerate* before the two can be brought together to
compare their clocks, and acceleration will show up in any
non-accelerated reference frame. No ambiguity: *that* one
accelerated, and *that* one didn't, from any frame of reference; no
symmetry.

>Time has not altered -- instead, something very like the Doppler
>Effect with sound is happening with light. If spaceship A and
>spaceship B fly back to meet each other, they will find that their
>clocks are still synchronized and that they have all aged the same
>amount.  No alteration of the flow of time has occurred, it just
>LOOKS that way when you look outside of your own reference frame.
>Bring the two reference frames together (into one reference frame)
>and the illusion vanishes.

   Sorry, no. IF both spaceships accelerated and decelerated equally
in the process of moving apart, and then together, their clocks
would indeed be synchronized when they met again (however, if your
frame of reference were at their meeting point, and *you* didn't
accelerate, *both* their clocks would be behind yours). If, however,
ship A accelerates away from B, and then decelerates and returns,
its clock will be behind the clocks in ship B.

>I know thousands of you are going to contradict me on this one, but
>just think about it and it should be obvious where "time dilation"
>fails to make logical sense: it assumes that Earth is some kind of
>priviledged reference frame, an assumption with absolutely no basis
>in *this* reality...

   No, it makes no such assumption. Let the ship stand still, and
accelerate the earth away from *it* and back at high velocity, and
it will be the earth's clocks that lag in comparison.
   BTW, time dilation is not even just solid theory any more - it's
been experimentally verified by atomic clocks in orbit around the
earth.  They lose time at exactly the rate predicted by Einstein's
theory.

Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
{hplabs,seismo,dual,ihnp4}!ames!aurora!barry

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 02:31:55 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

Kenn's message was good, as usual; but also incomplete.  It
discussed time dilation only from a special relativistic
perspective, and ignored the theory of general relativity.  The
original poster had a valid point about the preferred frame of
reference of Earth.

In special relativity, acceleration *is* an absolute, as Kenn said.
However, in general relativity, accelerated frames of reference are
seen as equally relative.  It is just as valid to say that the
spaceship is standing still, while the Earth accelerates away from
it.

However, not only the Earth, but the entire universe, has to be
considered as accelerated if one takes the view that the spaceship
is standing still; this general universal acceleration is not
required if one takes the position that the spaceship is
accelerating.  If the whole universe accelerates to near the speed
of light, then its effective mass increases in the well-known
Michelson-Morley transformation, and the tremendous gravitational
field slows down time for the spaceship, just as time would be
slowed down in the vicinity of a black hole or other supermassive
object.

Since the gravitational gradient of the generated field is very
small, it doesn't tear the ship apart, or exert any significant
tidal force at all; but it is directional, with the greatest
apparent acceleration of the universe being behind the spaceship.
This produces the gravitational force against the direction of
apparent acceleration of the spaceship, with which we are all
familiar from discussions of the g-forces of acceleration.

Disclaimer: I am not a physicist, and my information comes from
popularizations, like Geroch's "General Relativity from A to B".  So
I may have gotten a detail or two wrong, but I'm pretty sure that
this is correct in outline.  I have cross-posted to sci.physics so
any egregious errors will be rectified.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 11:45 PDT
From: lance@LOGICON.ARPA
Subject: how to store books?

This is a side issue about books (which could be the start of a
great new public debate).  What are some ways to store your books
that are worthy of thought (eg.  no recommendations to place them
all in boxes (and make sure to store the boxes in a nice damp place
:-)).  I have around 2,000 books and, as a side note I've even read
a couple of them.  I would like some ideas on how to store them
without putting all my money in bookcases instead of books.

lance

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #422
Date: 29 Sep 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #422
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 87 0843-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #422
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 422

Today's Topics:

        Books - Asimov & Bova & Brooks & Cadigan & Caidin &
                Card (2 msgs) & Clarke (7 msgs) &
                Eddings & Edwards & Ellison &
                Feynman & Moorcock & When Worlds Collide & 
                Story Request & An Answer,
        Magazines - Gateway

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 19:38:23 GMT
From: john@hpcvlo.hp.com (John Eaton)
Subject: Re: Asimov

>a short story whose name I forget in which the only alien race is
>met (other than the aliens in _The End of Eternity_)

What aliens in EOE? Are you thinking of _The Gods Themselves_?
Asimov has not attempted to make his short stories fit the master
plan.

John Eaton
!hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 17:29 CDT
From: Erstad@hi-multics.arpa
Subject: Re: Brazil in Space

Ben Bova's "Privateer" postulates that the Soviet Union deploys the
ultimate Star Wars defense, and forces the US out of space.  The
third world countries become the only space faring nations outside
the USSR.  I think the biggie was Venezuela, though, not
Brazil.

A good read, incidentally, if not very deep or meaningful.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 15:35:56 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Terry Brooks

I agree heartily with those who cite Brooks as a ripoff of JRR

Although I did waste time and read the first two books.

The Elfstones of "Sha-Na-Na" was the last straw, you see there is a
difference between imitation and blatant ripoff.  The bit about
having to take the seed or whatever, deep within that volcano, or
the scene at the rope-bridge where they lose the Ranger type.. (can
you say Aragorn :-) ) is just too much.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 02:21:26 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Pat Cadigan's _Mindplayers_

oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu.UUCP (David Phillip Oster) writes:
>Well, Professor Thomas Cheatham, senior faculty in Computer Science
>at Harvard used to say that if you want to do direct brain input,
>just use the optic nerves: that are a piece of brain tissue that's
>pushed its way through the skull to get a better view.

This reminds me of a book I read recently that is very 'cyberpunk' -
practically the whole book is spent with the main character 'jacked
in', and (you've guessed it) through the optic nerve.  The
protagonist isn't nearly as street-punk as Gibson's characters
usually are - the main character is a kind of psychologist that
shrinks artists (called a 'pathos finder') in a manner very similar
to Zelazney's _Dream_Master_.  If you liked Michael Swanwick's
_Vacuum_Flowers_, you'll like this one.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 17:30:35 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: MAROONED IN ORBIT author correction

The confusion about who wrote the book that was the basis for the
movie "Marooned" has a simple origin.  Caidin wrote *two* books by
that title.  The first was written during Project Mercury (anyone
remember John Glenn?)  and had an astronaut marooned in a disabled
Mercury capsule.  A Gemini capsule (which when the book was written,
had never flown) is hurridly launched to rescue him.

The movie is very obviously based on the first book (several
characters have the same names), but was updated to an Apollo/Skylab
setting.  Since the first book was so conspicuously out of date,
they couldn't use it as a movie tie-in.  So Caidin was commissioned
to write a second version to be published as the movie was released.

There's an interesting sidebar to all this.  In both books, Caidin
has the Soviets trying to score political points by mounting their
own rescue attempt.  The Soviet rescue attempt was in the movie, but
most of the background was left out, including all the politics.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 15:38:46 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Orson Scott Card & Mormonism

Much of Orson Scott Card's fiction shows the influence of Mormon
theology.  Examples are the redemptionist nature of Ender's mission
and the three phases of the "Piggies" in "Speaker for the Dead".
Mormon theology is radical enough as to be unrecognizable by the
average reader, and thus he gets away with it without turning off
those who dislike religious reference.  His knowledgeable references
to Brazil and Portuguese stem from the mission Card served for the
church in Brazil.  A recent article in the journal "Sunstone"
discussed Card's Mormon influences on his SF.

------------------------------

Date: 25 September 1987 11:32:59 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re:  SONGMASTER, O. S. Card

When did Stanley Schmidt become editor of _Analog_?  I.e., did Card
stop submitting stories to _Analog_ after Ben Bova left?

Paul R. Pudaite

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 04:51:28 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Clarke signs $4m book deal

According to the 9/18 issue of Publisher's Weekly, Arthur Clarke has
signed a book deal woth $4,050,000 for three books to be co-authored
with Gentry Lee, NASA director of advanced programs. Clarke and Lee
are currently collaborating on the novelization of the movie Cradle.

The main book of the contract is Rendezvous with Rama II, which was
sold to Bantam Spectra's Lou Aronica by Scott Merideth's Russ Galen.
North American rights only were sold. There is currently no outline,
or even an idea about how they're going to resolve the cliffhanger
ending of the first book.

The other two books are untitled. Dates were not announced.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 15:34:18 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
> The main book of the contract is Rendezvous with Rama II, which was
> sold to...how they're going to resolve the cliffhanger ending of
> the first book.

   Cliffhanger ?  In _Rendezvous with Rama_ ??  Remember, the Ramans
do everything in threes (I believe this was the last line in the
book).  Seems a pretty obvious way to prepare for a sequel (and vol.
III as well).

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 23:09:47 GMT
From: cit-vax!wiley!doug@RUTGERS.EDU (Doug Rudoff)
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

A few weeks ago when flipping through TV channels I came across
Entertainment Tonight and the hostess mentioned that Clarke was
writing two more sequels to "2001", "2060" and something else which
I don't remember.

Doug RUDOFF
TRW Inc.
{cit-vax,trwrb}!wiley!doug | wiley!doug@csvax.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 16:07:20 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

>> The main book of the contract is Rendezvous with Rama II, which
>> was sold to...how they're going to resolve the cliffhanger ending
>> of the first book.
>
> Cliffhanger ?  In _Rendezvous with Rama_ ??

Oh, let me clarify. Cliffhanger was Publishers Weekly word, not
mine. I believe that what they mean by this is they have absolutely
no idea of what they're going to do other than write a sequel. The
ending DOES leave things wide open, but at the same time it really
doesn't give any decent hook to start from, either. We all know a
second of those things is going to show up, but then what?

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 19:37:41 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

>Entertainment Tonight and the hostess mentioned that Clarke was
>writing two more sequels to "2001", "2060" and something else which
>I don't remember.

2061: Odyssey III is due out from Del Rey in hardcover in January. I
believe the final book in the series is dated 20001 (any bets on
Odyssey IV?) and is probably going to come out between a year and
two after that, also in hardcover. For paperback folks, Del Rey
normally schedules paperback editions between 10 and 14 months after
hardcover depending on sales.

These are being written under a separate contract. Rights for 2061
were sold to Judy-Lynn Del Rey before her death for $1.00US
(Clarke's normal advance with the late editor), and 2061 is
dedicated in her memory.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 18:52:51 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!holloway@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Holloway)
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>The main book of the contract is Rendezvous with Rama II, which was
>sold to

I'd sort of considered Greg Bear's "Eon" to be "Rendezvous with Rama
II"...

Bruce Holloway
uunet!amdahl!drivax!holloway

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 87 20:49:04 GMT
From: tyg@eddie.mit.edu (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

While the next book in the Odyssey series is supposed to titled
20001 (and in fact was supposed to have been the 3rd in the series),
Clarke is on record as saying he won't write it until the Galileo
probe has reached Jupiter. Therefore, I doubt it'll be out within
the next few years, and the way NASA is going, possibly not until
2001.

tyg

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 18:19:34 GMT
From: logden@tc.fluke.com (Leonard Ogden)
Subject: The Guardians of the West

I found the new Eddings novel Guardians of the West at my library
and grabbed it immediately. What is it about his books that just
carries my away? I've read many of your comments pro and con, about
his books, every time I pick up any one of his books I end up
reading them all! Sigh.

The Guardians of the West seems to be at around the same level as
the other novels, he has written (ie. I started reading at 8:30pm
looked up, and it was 11:42pm). I like it very much, (almost as if I
discovered another book in Tolkien's trilogy!)

Well that's all folks, there's a long night ahead.

Len Ogden

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1987 00:04 EST
From: Rodney Elin <KL791C%GWUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: First sf

In refrence to the "first science fiction", mine was probably the
book _The_Last_Of_The_Really_Great_Whangdoodles_ written by Julie
Andrews Edwards (Yes, the same one who starred in _Sound_Of_Music_
and married Blake Edwards.) But all I remember of it was that there
was an alternate universe that only kids could get to because adults
have no imagination, I think. Can anyone provide a plot synopsis?
Has anyone indeed even heard of it?

Rodney

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 87  22:05:29 EDT
From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: In this month's Asimov's....

They are printing Harlan Ellison's original, Asimov-approved script
for "I, Robot."  After years of wrangling with the studio (including
the studio telling Ellison, "It's a work of genius, we'll have to
change it"), Ellison has obtained reprint rights to the work, and it
is being published serially over the next three months.  From what
I've seen, it would have made a hell of a film - it's "Citizen Kane"
with Susan Calvin as Kane, or so Ellison says.  Whatever, the script
is marvelous.  I don't usually get Asimov's (when you subscribe to
25 periodicals, your budget gets a bit low for such things), but I
won't miss the next two.  This could mean another Hugo for Ellison -
it's certainly a treat for the readers....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

Date: 26 September 1987 15:30:49 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: FTL (Re: Life in Space, continued...)

I received the following request from John Pantone and was unable to
respond directly back to him.  This information may be useful to
other digest readers, anyway:

>>I recently read _QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter_ by
>>Nobel laureate Richard Feynman.  In _QED_, he gives a
>>non-technical, yet completely
>>
>>I also recommend _Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman!_, a hilarious
>>collection of autobiographical anecdotes.
>
>Do you by any chance have the ISBN numbers for these?

_QED_ is ISBN 0-691-08388-6.  _Surely You're Joking_ is ISBN
0-553-25649-1.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 87 04:21:32 PDT
From: boyajian%akov75.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Moorcock

From:   <labovitz%etd1.decnet@afwal-aaa.arpa>   (LT Stu Labovitz)
> Konrad Arflane
> The Ice Schooner   (is there another Arflane book???)

No, there isn't. But, the setting from that novel was used by at
least two other authors (with Moorcock's permission):

"Coranda" by Keith Roberts, available in his collection THE PASSING
OF THE DRAGONS, and "The Frozen Summer" by David Redd, in the March
1969 issue of WORLDS OF IF.

While I'm here---

A few people have asked for bibliographies for some specific
authors, such as Ellison, LeGuin, Hamilton, and Leinster. I'd
normally be happy to do a quick-and-dirty bibliography for each, but
these would take more time than I can spare at the moment. Sorry.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 31 AUG 87 16:53 EST
From: John E. Lewis <LEWIS%GUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: When Worlds Collide

I am currently trying to locate a copy of "When Worlds Collide" by
Wylie and Balmer. It is an old book but was re-issued a couple of
years ago. None of the bookstores have a copy of it. Does anyone
have any idea of how to go about getting a copy??? thanx...

jl

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 21:11:36 GMT
From: faknabe@phoenix.princeton.edu (Frederick Albert Knabe)
Subject: Book info request

Okay, can anybody out there tell me the title/author of a juvenile
SF anthology? The stories were all written by the same author. One
story was called "J-line to nowhere", another was about a little
girl who learned to pronounce "PXZQWL", or whatever that magic word
in the Oz books is, and the rest were also about kids. Any clues?

Also: who wrote the juvenile SF "Scavengers in Space"?

Thanks for the help! Please send mail; I don't get sf-lovers.

Fritz Knabe
faknabe@phoenix.princeton.edu

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 05:25:49 GMT
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Book info request

faknabe@phoenix (Frederick Albert Knabe) writes:
>Okay, can anybody out there tell me the title/author of a juvenile
>SF anthology? The stories were all written by the same author. One
>story was called "J-line to nowhere", another was about a little
>girl who learned to pronounce "PXZQWL", or whatever that magic word
>in the Oz books is, and the rest were also about kids. Any clues?

Both of these stories can be found in the Zenna Henderson Anthology
"Holding Wonder", the name of the second is "The Believing Child"
and the word is PYRZQXGL.

Very few of Zenna Henderson's stories can be called "juvenile".
That woman could write a story that could turn you inside out and
back again, try "You Know What, Teacher" from the same book.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb
markb@rdcf.sm.unisys.com

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 18:33:46 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com (druid)
Subject: Re: Magazine request

   I have a subscription to GATWAYS...it's a nice little fantazine
that has come a long way. Its got nice reviews and fair writers.
(Especially the COSMIC STREET CORNER).
  I recommend it highly ... but it is far from a pro mag.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #423
Date: 29 Sep 87 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #423
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 87 0906-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #423
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 423

Today's Topics:

              Books - Kay (6 msgs) & Kurtz (5 msgs) &
                      Mead & Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 03:22:22 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu (Uncia Uncia)
Subject: Re: The Fionavar Tapestry

This was a difficult set of books for me to read.  They contain the
most heart-rending imagery I have ever encountered anywhere. Good
but hard on the system.

Michael Collier
University of New Mexico Computing Center
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
...!cmcl2!beta!hc!hi!charon!collier
...!ames!hc!hi!charon!collier

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 22:59:13 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Fionavar Tapestry

I got a wrong title from the person who answered me earlier (sorry I
forgot your name). The third book in the series is
_The_Darkest_Road_, not Longest.

Continuing my earlier posting, when I read to the end of TWF, I
found the reference to Cader Sedat (?) being the center of all
things. Sounds like the Primal Pattern of Amber to me.

Anybody from University of Toronto want to comment on the accuracy
of the campus in the book?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 14:11:05 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Fionavar Tapestry

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I got a wrong title from the person who answered me earlier (sorry
>I forgot your name). The third book in the series is
>_The_Darkest_Road_, not Longest.
>
>Continuing my earlier posting, when I read to the end of TWF, I
>found the reference to Cader Sedat (?) being the center of all
>things. Sounds like the Primal Pattern of Amber to me.

Cader Sedat is Caer Sidhi, also called Caer Arianrhod and Spiral
Castle.  Its nature and properties are explained in Celtic
mythology, and that seems to be the source of most of the stuff in
the Fionavar books.  I don't think there were any borrowings from
Zelazny.

However, let me agree that these are really good books.  The best
high fantasy I've read for a long time (not that I read much, mind
you).

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 04:24:44 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Fionavar Tapestry

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Continuing my earlier posting, when I read to the end of TWF, I
>found the reference to Cader Sedat (?) being the center of all
>things. Sounds like the Primal Pattern of Amber to me.

This is wrong by even the wildest stretch of the imagination; Caer
Sedat, the Spiralling Place, is merely an island that exists in all
worlds.  It is not a static force for order in the universe that was
created by by some kind of demigod (i.e. Dworkin in Amber).  I don't
see why you keep drawing these Amber inferences from TFT, there are
none!  It draws heavily on Celtic mythology, not Zelazny.  You can
draw a few parallels, but they are *very* stretched (e.g. the
Tapestry & the Jewel of Judgement, the Andain and Amberites/Chaos
Lords).  TFT is much better than the Amber stuff that Zelazny does.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 20:27:16 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: The Fionavar Tapestry

ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET writes:
> I haven't seen any discussion yet of THE SUMMER TREE and THE
> WANDERING FIRE.  Just to kick it off, I'd like to argue the
> "Tolkienesque" description that keeps showing up on the book
> covers. To me, it looked more like a cross between Thomas Covenant
> and Amber.

These are actually two independent claims. I agree that there's some
resemblance with the Chronicles and the Amber books (particularly
the latter) but I think the resemblances are unimportant in that
they hinge mostly on aspects of Kay's and the other authors'
symbolisms that are sort of archetypal and required by the generic
fantasy epic plot.

I think fantasies of this kind have to be compared on the *specific*
aspects of the work -- prose style, scene construction,
characterization, general poetic flavor (or lack of it), the extent
to which the author's world is convincing to the reader, and how
that convincing is done.

In these respects, I claim that Kay's work is much like Tolkien's,
bears some resemblance to Donaldson's, and is very unlike Zelazny's
indeed.  In both Tolkien and Kay you have epic grandeur, a sense
that the prose could naturally break into poetry at any moment. And
they share with Donaldson a knack for building verisimilitude by the
careful layering of sensory and other detail.

Zelazny, on the other hand, is a looser, more chaotic and more
enigmatic writer. Amber dazzles and entertains, but for me it never
*convinces*.  Too much left unsaid; too many loose ends, too many
rabbits pulled out of too many hats. Ironically, Zelazny (the SF
writer) does a poorer job of world construction (usually the
strength of SF) than the fantasy writers Tolkien, Kay, and Donaldson
do (but in his defence it should be noted that these three are very
exceptionally good at it for fantasy writers).

The prose styles of these four track this distinction very well. In
Tolkien and Kay you have simple, solidly constructed narrative
connecting brilliant set-piece scenes (in Kay's writing the
distinction is clearer). In Donaldson you have the quasi-realist but
psychologically-oriented prose of the novel of character. And in
Zelazny you have tricky, experimental prose that often reads like an
acid trip in print and sometimes flounders in its own imagistic
brilliance.

Similarly for emotional tone. In Tolkien and Kay: epic, martial,
thrilling.  In Donaldson: moody, introverted, obsessive. In Zelazny:
detached. And compare the style and depth of characterization. Kay's
viewpoint characters are much more like Tolkien's in their
vulnerability than they are like Donaldson's poisonous, self-hating
protagonist or Zelazny's cool, casually heroic egoists.

If it isn't already clear, I like Kay's stuff a lot. I think he is
doing a far better job of integrating psychological elements with
the fantasy epic than any of the other four (or, for that matter,
any fantasy writer I can easily remember) ever has. Consequently, I
think he's achieving Donaldson's goal of 'literary' value far better
than the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant ever did while remaining true
to the epic tradition that Tolkien revived so effectively.  In this
respect, I think he has quite earned the privilege of being compared
with the grand old master.

Historically, it should be noted that Kay was a credited
collaborator on the editing of the posthumous Tolkien books. It may
be that *he* has had some influence on our perception of 'Tolkien',
as well as the other way around.

And this seems like a good place to recommend the only two fantasies
out of very wide reading that I thought were very good and
'Tolkienesque' without being mere knock-offs. Both are by Joy Chant;
they are _Red_Moon,_Black_ Mountain_ and the sequel,
_The_Grey_Mane_Of_Morning_.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
Phone: (215)-296-5718
{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 87 18:23:56 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Fionavar

I wrote in a previous posting:
>Anybody from University of Toronto want to comment on the accuracy
>of the campus in the book?

I got this answer:

>The campus is represented perfectly.  That really added to the
>shock value in the first few chapters.  I walk Past the bridge
>leading to the Edward Johnson building (or did he call it the music
>building?)  where they killed the svart alfar.  For I while I felt
>very weird doing it at night.  And Con Hall was great too. (He
>didn't mention that you have to sit on the second balcony for
>lectures so that you can throw paper airplanes. Or maybe that's
>only engineering students....)
>
>Seriously, according to the Toronto phone book, he lives (GG Kay)
>about 2 blocks from U of T.

------------------------------

Date: WED SEP 23, 1987 15.00.01 EDT
From: "Tom Browne" <TPB1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Kurtz / Deryni Books

I remember reading somewhere (I believe it was in her book of short
stories - The Deryni Archives), that she was working on another
Deryni trilogy [The Childe Morgan trilogy (??)].  Does anybody know
if this is true, and if so when the first book will be out and what
it's name is/will be?

I have noticed discussions as well about various works and would
like to suggest Kurtz's work.  In my opinion, she is definitely one
of the best fantasy writers ever.  Her world is understandable,
consistent and (if this doesn't go against the dictionary definition
of fantasy) believable that has ever been created.

Tom Browne
TPB1@LEHIGH.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 00:03:41 GMT
From: c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu (Jon Yamato)
Subject: Re: Kurtz / Deryni Books

>I have noticed discussions as well about various works and would
>like to suggest Kurtz's work.  In my opinion, she is definitely one
>of the best fantasy writers ever.  Her world is understandable,
>consistent and (if this doesn't go against the dictionary
>definition of fantasy) believable that has ever been created.

I was pleased with the first trilogy (_Deryni Rising, _Deryni
Checkmate, _High Deryni) and found the second trilogy (_Camber)
interesting, but the longer the series continues, the more similar
the plots become.  It is also puzzling that although Deryni have
been persecuted for hundreds of years by Kelson's time, they seem to
outnumber humans, and that although her discussion of the genetics
implies that many of the children of Deryni- human (and even
Deryni-Deryni) marriages should be human, there are practically no
such characters in the books.  Also, humans with Deryni powers seem
unaccountably widespread, given that until recently the phenomenon
was recognized only in the royal family.  Kurtz would just rather
write about Deryni, I guess, but I find that this makes the books
feel implausible.

Mary K. Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 15:01:06 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Kurtz / Deryni Books

From: "Tom Browne" <TPB1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I have noticed discussions as well about various works and would
>like to suggest Kurtz's work.  In my opinion, she is definitely one
>of the best fantasy writers ever.  Her world is understandable,
>consistent and (if this doesn't go against the dictionary
>definition of fantasy) believable that has ever been created.

I agree that Kurtz's Deryni books are excellent. I think that the
main reason her world is believable, though, is that it is an
extremely accurate (in terms of political machinations between
Church and King) representation of Britain in the eleventh and
twelfth centuries. At that time, magic and miracles were believed in
as well.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 23:56:04 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Kurtz / Deryni Books

TPB1@LEHIGH.BITNET writes:
>I remember reading somewhere (I believe it was in her book of short
>stories - The Deryni Archives), that she was working on another
>Deryni trilogy [The Childe Morgan trilogy (??)].  Does anybody know
>if this is true, and if so when the first book will be out and what
>it's name is/will be?

You may have seen me mentioning Kurtz quite frequently here, so you
may know that I'm as big a fan as you.  Have you paid attention to
the "About the Author" page in the back of the most recent trilogy?
According to those, Kurtz has at least *three* more Deryni trilogies
planned.

It looks like she'll be picking up right after the end of "QFSC",
but she took quite a temporal leap from ther first to the second
series, so you can't really tell.

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 02:45:20 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Kurtz / Deryni Books

The next trilogy is "Javan's Year", and the first volume, "The
Harrowing of Gwynedd", picks up immediately after "Camber the
Heretic".  As this has been in the works for some time, there should
not be long to wait.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 22:17:00 GMT
From: mosier@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Steve Mosier)
Subject: Syd Mead illustrations (?)

Does anyone have any idea where I can order Syd Mead's books?  If
you're curious as to he is... he did set designs for a few movies,
most notably _Blade Runner_ and _2010_.  A search of our local
public library computer came up with a "No Match", as did one of our
larger book stores.

I have an article on him that appeared in the Chicago Tribune in
August.  According to this, Ridley Scott found Mead after asking his
staff to collect futuristic illustrations as part of the search for
a set designer.  "One gander at Mead's first book _Sentinel_ and
Scott knew Mead was his man."

From the article:

   "Tremendous skyscrapers loom ominously as a videotaped commercial
   plays across a billboard screen.  The actress is speaking what
   sounds like a cross between German and Japanese.
      Below, shabby people of all colors and sizes squeeze through
   garish, littered streets.  Parking meters and fire hydrants
   display clunky, threatening looking knobs and cables.  Some cars
   fly, and all of them look as if they've been driven through
   Beirut."  [Great comment, that!]

Mead decribes this as "a cross between an open-air Third World
market and Times Square" (retro deco engineering).

If anyone can recommend books of his that are worth getting (or ones
to stay away from), I'd like to hear from you.  The article mentions
_Sentinel_ and _Oblagon: Concepts of Syd Mead_ , not sure if he has
more than that.

Steve Mosier
Indiana University Computer Science Dept.
UUCP: {ihnp4,pyramid,akgua}!iuvax!mosier
ARPA: mosier@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
BELL: +1 812 335 5561

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 09:52 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Name this short story
Cc: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens), sds@fizban.fizban.mn.org

Well, there are quite a few sollipsistic short stories out there in
SFdom, but no one has come up with the one I recall.

I, too, enjoyed that story with the guy who's uninsurable because
the world will end when he dies, but I don't follow the logic of it.
What has an insurance company got to lose by insuring him?  They
never have to worry about his relatives collecting.  It's like
refusing someone life insurance because they're immortal.

"Them" by Heinlein does have a similar theme to the story I'm
looking for, but is more a conspiracy theory, with Them building up
a fictional world for the main character.  The story I'm looking for
is much more paradoxical because the main character really IS the
center of the universe, which some of his "creations" know, but he
doesn't.

Dregs of memory: I think the story starts with the main character
dining with one of the "CIA"types protecting him.  She's reading a
paper and makes some small talk about some odd scientific finding
(like the rate of expansion of the universe is slowing down, or
something like that) and is later reprimanded by her superior for
risking bringing his attention to it.

Can anyone out there identify it yet?

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #424
Date: 29 Sep 87 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #424
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 87 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #424
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 424

Today's Topics:

          Books - Lovecraft (4 msgs) & Zelazny (8 msgs) &
                  Cyberpunk & Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 04:46:08 GMT
From: citi!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L.
From: Carlock)
Subject: Re: Hastur

archer@elysium.SGI.COM (Archer Sully) writes:
>It's been a long time since I've read any Lovecraft, but wasn't
>Has..., uh, I mean, 'He who is not to be named' mentioned in 'The
>Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath'?  Regardless, I'm quite sure that he
>is a Lovecraft invention and not a Derleth.

I think that the, er, fellow who isn't to be named is actually, um,
uh, well, A - Z - A - T - H - O - T - H.

>DelRay didn't even reprint all of the Cthulhu stories, as far as I
>know, so if you didn't see it, don't give up.

I'm going out on a limb a bit, but I've read every story HPL
published**, with the exception of "Herbert West, Reanimator" (still
haven't found it!), and I recall no mention of Hastur in any of
these works.

I HAVE seen plenty of references to Hastur in Derleth's work -- in
fact Hastur seems to be one of Derleth's faves.  Actually, I think
Hastur was the brainchild of Lin Carter, but I am not completely
sure of this.

Enough talk about all these bad guys (shudder).  Let's hear it for
Nodens, "ye Lord of ye great Abyss!!"

** based on the list of published HPL works listed in the back of
"The Tomb", as published by Ballantine.

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada - Reno
malc@tahoe.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 14:34:09 GMT
From: cje@elbereth.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: Hastur

malc@tahoe.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
> archer@elysium.SGI.COM (Archer Sully) writes:
>>It's been a long time since I've read any Lovecraft, but wasn't
>>Has..., uh, I mean, 'He who is not to be named' mentioned in 'The
>>Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath'?  Regardless, I'm quite sure that
>>he is a Lovecraft invention and not a Derleth.
>
> I think that the, er, fellow who isn't to be named is actually,
> um, uh, well, A - Z - A - T - H - O - T - H.

There are no strictures against mentioning Azathoth's name in any
Mythos story I've read (a couple hundred).  "He Who is Not to be
Named" is definitely Hastur.

>>DelRay didn't even reprint all of the Cthulhu stories, as far as I
>>know, so if you didn't see it, don't give up.
> I'm going out on a limb a bit, but I've read every story HPL
> published**, with the exception of "Herbert West, Reanimator"
> (still haven't found it!), and I recall no mention of Hastur in
> any of these works.
>
> ** based on the list of published HPL works listed in the back of
> "The Tomb", as published by Ballantine.

Are you referring to the Beagle Books (a Ballantine spinoff)
edition?  Has part of a skull with an eye on the cover.  If so,
that's an incomplete list.

I think my copy of "Herbert West -- Reanimator" is in a British pb
called DAGON, so that's of no help to you.  DON'T buy the
novelization of the film REANIMATOR!  It bears little relation to
HPL's story and is poorly written to boot.

And, regarding the original query as to where in HPL Hastur is
mentioned, I checked, and it's in "The Whisperer in Darkness", as I
thought.

> I HAVE seen plenty of references to Hastur in Derleth's work -- in
> fact Hastur seems to be one of Derleth's faves.  Actually, I think
> Hastur was the brainchild of Lin Carter, but I am not completely
> sure of this.

Whoa!  Cart before the horse time!  Here's the true history of Hastur:

Circa 1870, Ambrose Bierce created Hastur as an unseen shepherd-god
in "Haita the Shepherd".  Circa 1890, Robert W. Chambers
incorporated Hastur, along with Bierce's other inventions, Hali and
Carcosa, plus a reference to the Hyades star cluster, in his stories
about the accursed play "The King in Yellow".  HPL, in his 1931 "The
Whisperer in Darkness", mentioned "The King in Yellow" and Hastur
along with some god-like creations of some of his writing
contemporaries and thus expanded his "Cthulhu Mythos" (though he
never called it that).  August Derleth seized on this
Bierce/Chambers aspect of the Mythos and wrote "The Return of
Hastur" in 1938.  Lin Carter didn't start writing Mythos stories
until 1966, and while he's mentioned Hastur in his stories, I don't
recall a story *about* Hastur.

> Enough talk about all these bad guys (shudder).  Let's hear it for
> Nodens, "ye Lord of ye great Abyss!!"

Actually, Nodens was an actual Celtic (Gaulish, I think) god of the
sea, cognate with Nuada Argatlam ("Silverhand") and Lludd (after
whom London was named).  There are ruins of a temple to Nodens
somewhere along the upper Thames.

And, according to Gary (THE HOUSE OF THE WORM) Myers, the Elder Gods
sort of snuck up on the sleeping Great Old Ones, imprisoning them
when they weren't looking, and still dread the day when the Great
Old Ones finally wake up.  Quite different from Derleth's star
warriors from Betelgeuse, eh?

Chris Jarocha-Ernst
UUCP: {ames, harvard, moss, seismo}!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!cje
ARPA: JAROCHAERNST@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU

------------------------------

From: winalski%psw.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: 23 Sep 87 16:28
To: archer@elysium.sgi.com
Subject: Hast*r and The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

The "He who is not to be named" in THE DREAM-QUEST OF UNKNOWN KADATH
is quite clearly Azathoth, not Hast*r.  Early in TD-QoUK, it is said
of Azathoth that his name must not be uttered aloud.  In the end of
the novel, when Carter meets Nylarlathotep, N. tells him that he was
an emissary from the Other Gods who dance mindlessly around He Who
Is Not To Be Named.  Thus, the reference is clearly to Azathoth.

PSW

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 07:44:57 GMT
From: uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Hastur

cje@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ernst @ Sanctum Sanctorum) writes:
>Re: where was "Hastur" 1st mentioned in HPL?
>I'll have to check my sources at home, but I believe Hastur was
>referred to in "The Whisperer in Darkness".

I double-checked in my 1971 Ballantine paperback copy of "The Spawn
of Cthulhu" (which contains one HPL tale, TWID, and a host of short
stories by other authors writing in the Mythos -- even "The Yellow
Sign", by Robert W. Chambers, who predates HPL by a couple of
decades).  According to Lin Carter, who anthologized the book,
Hastur first appears in the writings of ** Ambrose Bierce ** !

This answers the question of where the name "Hastur" first appeared,
period.  It doesn't, however, answer cje@topaz.rutgers.edu's
question of where HPL first mentions it.  According to Carter, HPL
referred to Hastur very little.  TWID seems like a good bet for a
first mention, however.

By the way, I seem to recall several writers in the Mythos, perhaps
HPL as well, getting a lot of mileage out of the fact that Ambrose
Bierce, a real- life writer about Hastur and related matters,
disappeared without a trace during the early part of this century.
Writing about forbidden matters -- ** shudder **.

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada - Reno
malc@tahoe.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 15:43:00 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Illustrated Zelazny

You all forgot one of the best parts...  It opens with an unreleased
Shadowjack story....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 23:08:11 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Rug in _Creatures_of_L+D_

Huh? I don't remember that reference at all. Do I need to read it
again, or is there a trimmed edition of the book out?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 14:01:28 GMT
From: jwbirdsa@phoenix.princeton.edu (James Webster Birdsall)
Subject: Re: Rug in _Creatures_of_L+D_

The rug belonged to Osiris. Woven into it was the living nervous
system of one of Osiris' former enemies (I believe another Angel).
As such, it naturally disliked being jumped up and down on.

Qlyrr

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 17:12:08 GMT
From: sunybcs!cald80!sigmast!dgy@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Yearke)
Subject: Re: Illustrated Zelazny

Does anyone know if the Illustrated Zelazny is still in print, and,
if so, where I can get a copy?  Mine was lost when I "loaned" it to
a friend, and I have been unable to locate either the oversized or
the regular paperback ...  Thanks in advance ...

Dave Yearke
Sigma Systems Technology, Inc.
{boulder|decvax|seismo!kitty}!sunybcs!cald80!sigmast!dgy
...ames!canisius!sigmast!dgy

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 04:06:33 GMT
From: dykimber@phoenix.princeton.edu (Daniel Yaron Kimberg)
Subject: Sign Of Chaos (NO REAL SPOILERS)

Well, I did it again, just like last time.  After months of anxious
waiting, I finally saw Roger Zelazny's new Amber novel, Sign of
Chaos, in a bookstore and bought it and read it.  And just like last
time I find myself wondering why I'd paid about $15 for the
privilege of about a day's reading and another year or so's waiting.
I guess I just like the stuff.  I don't feel like reviewing it since
anyone who might read it probably knows exactly what to expect
already.  I will say that although it's not among the top seven
Amber books, for anyone who's read them all it's not that painful to
continue.  In fact, I kind of liked it, even at something like 8
cents a page.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 23:16:37 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!abvax!mandrill!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU
From: (Brandon Allbery)
Subject: Re: Amber Books

df1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel Burton Fahs):
>Wonderland is a SHADOW??

Sure.  When you think about it, the multiversal theory behind the
Amber novels and Heinlein's "pantheistic multiperson solipsism"
universe novels (a trilogy, gaak!) is the same; the major difference
between the series is that the Amber novels are much better written
;-)

And Wonderland showed up in NoTB.

Brandon S. Allbery
{{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}
    !ncoast!allbery
ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 15:57:44 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re:  Dope on Zelazny

Thanks to all who helped out.

I bought the book and read it ....

Also, Zelazny's "editing" a series called Alien Speedways.

The Racetrack of the future is a tailor-built solar system.  Roger
thought it up, and did some other initial development, now I think
he's handing it over to other authors. Each book a novel in a
constant storyline (same chars.).  The first isn't bad at all....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 87 20:37 N
From: <AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

I have some questions concerning the Amber novels by Roger Zelazny.
Please excuse me is some of the answers have already been given -
I'm always a bit behind on the SF-lovers.. they come in at such a
breathtaking speed :)

> I assume this is where Zelazny got the name Tir-na Nog'th?  (No, I
> won't ask where he got Rebma. :-) Does anybody know for sure?

I also had that thought about Tir-na Nog'th when I read the Tolkien
message. :) But why not ask where Rebma comes from? Or do I miss
some background here?

>    Good generation tree, but you forgot two other members of the
> family.  This is not surprising, since they were only mentioned in
> passing, because they chose to leave Amber and its power
> struggles....
>
>    They are Delwin, and his sister Sand.

 I missed the tree that is mentioned here - probably because I miss
issues #366 and #377.. could someone on BitNet re-send them to me?
But the actual question about this quote is this one: Where are
Delwin and Sand mentioned? I reread the first five novels quite
recently and did some research then, but did not come across these
two. So I'm quite interested in the above mentioned tree as I might
have missed a few more.. (No, I _did_ spot Osric and Finndo :) By
the way, who are the mothers of the four youngest children of
Oberon?

 And here's a question about The Hand of Oberon: (sorry if there are
flaws in the summary - I'm doing this from memory. Please correct.)
 Corwin has visited Dworkin and trumped out to the Courts where he
meets Merle (unknowingly). Gerard and Bleys try to reach him on his
Trump but get no real response (though Corwin is aware of one of the
attempts)
 When Corwin gets back to Amber (on Gerard's Trump, wasn't it?) it
turns out that eight days have passed there - although he
experienced it as a few hours because of the time differential.
Obviously, time moves faster in Amber than in the Courts.
 But then Corwin asks Brand why the forces of the Black Road have
not yet mounted a new attack as they've had plenty of time to do so
because of the time differential - obviously time moves faster in
the Courts than it does in Amber.
 That's right, it doesn't make sense. Or does it?

 And my last remark:
 Chatting a while ago on the BitNet relay system, a friend of mine
came up with a very neat theory which I'd like to share with you
(although I do not have her explicit permission - anyway, the credit
is hers :)
 She pointed out that as Ghostwheel has quite a few things in common
with the Logrus, it might serve to balance the disturbance caused by
the appearance of Corwin's second pattern... Amber vs Chaos and
Corwin's Pattern vs Ghostwheel should keep things in balance! Sounds
quite plausible, doesn't it?

 Waiting eagerly for the 8th book,

Maarten
AERTS@HLERUL5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 20:32:44 GMT
From: palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer)
Subject: Re: cyberpunk

ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET writes:
>Is Max Headroom Cyberpunk, or have I got my definitions crossed?

Max Headroom is to cyberpunk what Disney is to Grimm.  Cleaned up
and toned down to make it palatable for children and network
executives.  (It's not as good as Disney, but Walt was a genius)

One of the writers on Max Headroom is Jon Shirley, a cyberpunker.

Much of the terminology is lifted from Neuromancer, the
quintessential cyberpunk novel.  (e.g. ICE, flatline, ROM
construct).  It is often misapplied.

David Palmer
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 21:43:04 GMT
From: elg@usl (Eric Lee Green)
Subject: Re: Life in Space, continued...

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU says:
> There was a story in Analog, sorry but I forget when or where,
> about a society with a 1600s techology that attempts to invade
> Earth,

Hmm. Sounds like something by Simak. Something about huge pyramids,
and a religion which is dedicated to building these, with religious
rituals for building them etc... and the rest of the civilization is
similiar to Rome. I say Simak because it had a lot of religion in it
(one of the human protagonists was a priests, one of the aliens was
a member of a persecuted cult that looked an awful lot like
Christianity, etc.), but I'm probably wrong.

Eric Green
elg@usl.CSNET
{akgua,killer}!usl!elg
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Sep  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #425
Date: 29 Sep 87 1007-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #425
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Sep 87 1007-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #425
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 29 Sep 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 425

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Neutronium (6 msgs) &
                               Time Dilation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 15:15:55 GMT
From: uunet!utai!gpu.utcs.toronto.edu!bnr-vpa!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!
From: alastair@RUTGERS.EDU (Alastair Mayer)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re:
Subject: Bear novel)

drw@culdev1.UUCP (Dale Worley) writes:
>iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes:
>>brothers@steppenwolf.rutgers.edu writes:
>>>The destruction of the Earth is accomplished by dropping large
>>>clumps of neutronium and antineutronium to orbit around each
>>>other under the Earth's surface until their orbits decay with a
>>>resulting massive explosion.
>>
>> This is very funny.  For one, the real matter in the earth's
>> atmosphere, crust, etc. would cause, uh, large explosions when in
>> contact with the anti-neutronium - the a-n ball would probably
>> never reach the surface,

At the surface of a large chunk of antimatter, radiation pressure
from contact with matter helps keep the two separate -- assuming the
chunk is strong enough to withstand shock effects.  I suspect that
the self-gravitation of a large neutronium sphere might be strong
enough, especially if it were completely surrounded by matter (thus
undergoing continuous implosion, in effect).  This boundary
phenomenon is analagous to the Leidenfrost (sp?)  layer which will
keep a drop of water hovering above a red-hot plate for a long time
(until radiation heating, rather than conduction, boils the droplet)
- the water actually in contact with the plate flashes to steam and
keeps the rest of the drop away.

>Even better: The antineutronium ball might generate enough
>explosive power under itself to be blasted away from the Earth!

Depends on the gravitational force between Earth and antineutronium,
and the initial momentum of the ball.  In the story, the ball in
question was targeted for a water entry, probably for good reason
(see above).

>Also, what keeps these lumps together?  If it's gravity, the ball
>of neutronium must be able to accrete ordinary matter at high speed
>-- the Earth would be a neutron star in hours.

You're forgetting that the g force is inversely proportional to
r-squared.  I don't recall given radius of the neutronium sphere but
it was almost certainly less than 100 meters, maybe less than 10.
Call it 10.  A km away the force would be 1/10,000th that at the
surface.  Earth is roughly 6400 km in radius.  Eventually Earth
would (if there was just the one lump of 'normal' neutronium)
accrete into a somewhat larger lump of neutronium with a degenerate
matter crust, but it would take a lot longer than hours.  Possibly
months or years.  Remember, as Earth's matter infalls to the
neutronium, it gives up energy, which has to radiate away (probably
convert to heat and convect away, but whatever).  That energy is
working against the infall of more material, and in any case the
strongest effects are confined within a small area around the
neutronium, (although more matter will move in to take the place of
stuff that collapses).

I can understand people not wanting to go through all the math, but
at *least* think things through a little bit before making sweeping
pronunciations about what might or might not happen.

Alastair JW Mayer
UUCP: ...!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!alastair

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 19:32:19 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!anthony@RUTGERS.EDU (Anthony)
Subject: RE: Neutronium as a terrorist weapon

   The question of what holds a ball of neutronium together is
extremely valid.  The stable size for a ball of neutronium, due to
gravitation, is several hundred kilometers and the mass of a small
star.  I also noticed the mention of a radius of 10 meters.  Please
be aware: the density of neutronium is approx.  10^13 grams/cc.
Thus, a ten meter ball masses on the order of 10^15 tons.  That is a
rather unlikely mass to be available as a weapon to anyone.
Considering the forces trying to rip it apart, I doubt that surface
reactions would have much effect, especially since they would cause
the ball to get much hotter, and thus increase the outward forces
even more.
   This brings me to a related interesting idea.  If you generated a
black hole in the gram range (don't ask me how), it would be small
enough to have essentially no ability to get new mass, and penetrate
almost anything.  It would also decay due to Hawking radiation in an
unmeasurable short time, in a curve with ever increasing wattage.
Give it the right initial relativistic velocity and you could
fine-tune the end of its life, and the greatest power of the
explosion, wherever you wanted.  (Who here has heard of the
Traveller meson guns?  Same sort of goal, thought the meson gun idea
could not in fact work.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 15:14:28 GMT
From: uunet!utai!gpu.utcs.toronto.edu!bnr-vpa!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!
From: alastair@RUTGERS.EDU (Alastair Mayer)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re:
Subject: Bear novel)

russ@crlt.UUCP (Russ Cage) writes:
>I've read that a neutronium lump, even a large one, would
>beta-decay to protons in short order unless it were *very* large
>(star-sized).

   Damn, I forgot about neutron decay in my previous posting.
However, I wonder about the necessary size for a lump to be stable.

>The reason that neutron stars are stable is that they are so large
>and highly compressed that there are no quantum states available
>for any electrons emitted from beta decays to go into; without an
>available state, the decay does not occur.  Nothing less than the
>mass of a star is big enough for this inhibitory effect to work.

  Okay, maybe the neutrons in a smaller lump *do* exhibit decay, but
there's an out.  If I remember right (I'm sure I'll be corrected if
not :-) a neutron decays into a proton and electron (and
anti-neutrino?).  If this happens near the surface of the lump, the
various particles likely as not, escape and are lost mass.  However,
within the lump there is a chance that the proton released will
encounter an electron emitted from the decay of another neutron, and
vice-versa, recombining to form new neutrons.  What the
mean-free-path is I have no idea, but it need not be large.  The
problem is similar to working out the minimum critical mass for a
fission reaction, and there's a lot more empty space between nuclei
in a lump of U-235 or Pu-239 than there is between neutrons in a
lump of neutronium.  (I just don't know what the capture cross
section is).
  The point is, dynamic stability (with some continous mass/energy
loss, but at a more gradual rate--countered by infall of new
material) rather than static stability.

>A neutronium lump hitting the earth would punch right through the
>atmosphere and crust, decaying madly into protons and electrons all
>the way with a half-life of 13 minutes.  Something a foot in

I thought neutron half-life was 8 minutes?  Although I could be
wrong, no reference handy.

> [..more interesting speculation not relevant to this followup ..]

Alastair JW Mayer
UUCP: ...!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!alastair

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 87 15:29:22 GMT
From: umix!itivax!crlt!russ@RUTGERS.EDU (Russ Cage)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re:
Subject: Bear novel)

alastair@geovision.UUCP (Alastair Mayer) writes:
>  Okay, maybe the neutrons in a smaller lump *do* exhibit decay,
>but there's an out.  If I remember right (I'm sure I'll be
>corrected if not :-) a neutron decays into a proton and electron
>(and anti-neutrino?).  If this happens near the surface of the
>lump, the various particles likely as not, escape and are lost
>mass.  However, within the lump there is a chance that the proton
>released will encounter an electron emitted from the decay of
>another neutron, and vice-versa, recombining to form new neutrons.
>What the mean-free-path is I have no idea, but it need not be
>large.

It is large.  Even a collapsing stellar core can only hold neutrinos
for a fraction of a second; they diffuse outward very quickly even
through degenerate matter.  A lump of neutronium a few feet in
diameter wouldn't bother them at all.  There's nothing in the way of
beta decay.

Russ Cage
ihnp4!itivax![m-net!rsi,crlt!russ]

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 15:11:29 GMT
From: ll-xn!culdev1!drw@RUTGERS.EDU (Dale Worley)
Subject: Neutronium as a Terrorist Weapon in Bear novel (was Re: Bear
Subject: novel)

alastair@geovision.UUCP (Alastair Mayer) writes:
> drw@culdev1.UUCP (Dale Worley) writes:
>>Also, what keeps these lumps together?  If it's gravity, the ball
>>of neutronium must be able to accrete ordinary matter at high
>>speed -- the Earth would be a neutron star in hours.
>
> You're forgetting that the g force is inversely proportional to
> r-squared.  [etc. etc.]  I can understand people not wanting to go
> through all the math, but at *least* think things through a little
> bit before making sweeping pronunciations about what might or
> might not happen.

I have.

The smallest neutron star possible is somewhere around 1/10 solar
mass.  Otherwise the pressure, even at the center, isn't enough to
push matter beyond degenerate ordinary matter.  I.e., it's just a
small white dwarf.  Thus, "if gravity holds the neutronium
together", it must mass at least 1/10 solar mass.  (Another way to
look at it is: The gravitational gradient at the surface of the
neutronium must be enough to confine the neutrons which form it.
This takes a very strong force, much larger than anything we see
ordinarily.)  I submit that even standing, say, a few thousand miles
away from such a thing, the Earth would get accreted at a rather
impressive rate.  (Or perhaps, the radiation from part of the Earth
being accreted would make the rest of the Earth into a plasma, but
that's not much better for real estate values.)

Dale

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 15:27:49 GMT
From: ll-xn!culdev1!drw@RUTGERS.EDU (Dale Worley)
Subject: Beta decay in neutronium

Hmmm...  In order for the neutrons to beta decay, the electrons have
to escape.  Otherwise, they just stack up in the quantum states
until there are no states left to hold them.  In order to escape,
they have to overcome (1) the gravitational field, and (2) the
electric field (all those escaping electrons leave a net positive
charge behind).  I suspect that if (1) doesn't get them, (2) will.

Didn't someone already say this?  That the neutrons couldn't decay
because there were no unoccupied states for the electrons produced?

Dale

------------------------------

Date: 26 Sep 87 00:10:11 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Flames, Brooks, Time-Dilation

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>The fact is, this time dilation effect doesn't really exist!

Yes, it does.

>Einstein originally thought it was a result of his general theory
>of relativity.

First of all, time dilation is primarily a consequence of *special*
relativity.  It does also follow from general relativity, which
includes special relativity as a special case (just as special
relativity includes Newtonian mechanics as a special case.)

>Later he saw that it didn't fit in, so he tried to make it fit by
>saying it was the acceleration, not the velocity achieved, that
>dilated the time.

This is a misunderstanding of a layman's explanation of the effect.
To my knowledge, Einstein never used it; but if he did, you can be
sure that he understood it as a popularization.

>Finally, he saw that he was just plain mistaken, and that time
>dilation didn't make sense, but by then it had caught on with the
>masses so much it seems people still believe it is possible today.

This is just plain false.

>Think about it: when you say "The spaceship is travelling really
>really really fast," what does this mean? Fast in relation to what?

It means, fast in relation to the specified or assumed observer.

>The Earth? I suppose that is what people are thinking here, but who
>is to say that it is not the Earth that is moving AWAY from the
>spaceship, and that all that accelerationthe ship has undergone is
>really deceleration from the velocity the Earth was travelling when
>it took off.

Good enough so far.  But to really understand anything here, you
would be better off getting rid of this concept of "deceleration".
*Any* change of velocity is an acceleration.  (And velocity is the
speed and direction of travel, not just the speed.)

>The problem is, what reference frame are you using? In the open
>vastness of the universe, "velocity" is meaningless except as
>considered as relative to the motions of all the rest of the matter
>in the universe.

No, velocity of *any* object is meaningful relative to any other
object.  You can choose any object you want to define your reference
frame, and the equations of special relativity will enable you to
calculate what the results would be if you chose some other
reference frame.

>What time dilation really IS: People in 2 different reference
>frames that are accelerating AWAY from each other LOOK (to the
>people in the OTHER frame) as if they are aging slower. When the
>people in reference frame A look out their proverbial porthole at
>the clock on the dashboard of reference frame B's spaceship
>(obviously with a very powerful telescope :-), they SEE B's clock
>moving more slowly than A's own. If people in B look at A's clock,
>the people in B will ALSO see the other's (A's) clock moving slower
>than their own.

This, again, is correct as far as it goes.  But, to really
understand relativity, you have to really understand that "at the
same time" is really only meaningful for things in the same place.
A's clock doesn't just LOOK like it is going slower to B; it really
is, in B's reference frame.  Likewise, B's clock really is going
slower, in A's reference frame.  This discrepency only has to be
resolved when A and B are at the same place at the same time.

If A and B are moving at constant velocities, they can meet at most
once.  (If they don't meet at all, there is no problem.)  Whenever
they meet (in the case of a spaceship leaving Earth, at takeoff)
they can align their clocks.  In order to meet more than once, at
least one of the two must accelerate.  When you accelerate, you
change your frame of reference.  (In general relativity, this gets
even more complicated, but the basic result is the same.)

To summarize: time dilation is real; the apparent contradictions are
the result of incomplete understanding; to really understand it,
study the mathematics.

>I apologize for my longwindedness, but it just bothers the heck out
>of me that even lots of SCIENTISTS (e.g. Asimov) use this "effect"
>in fiction (and in at least one case and I am sure many more,
>Asimov has described it in *factual* books) without realizing that
>it makes no sense whatsoever.

I also apologize for my longwindedness, but it bothers the heck out
of me when people who clearly do NOT know what they are talking
about make pronouncements about scientific subjects.  I strongly
recommend that the poster of the original article not post anything
more about relativity until he has taken a course in special
relativity.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #426
Date:  6 Oct 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #426
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 87 0916-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #426
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 426

Today's Topics:

              Books - Limited Edition Books (3 msgs) &
                      Upcoming Books & Title Request (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 12:56:12 MDT
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: a couple limited edition books you might have missed (King,
Subject: Waldrop)

Recently I happened to read a couple of really good books that had a
fairly limited distribution.  I don't want to tease you, I just want
to let you know that the books exist and there's still some chance
that you'll be able to find them...

As Stephen King likes to point out, his books await the unwary in
checkout lines across the country, piled high in bins with glaring
red-on-black titles.  So why can't you find THE DRAWING OF THE THREE
(Donald M. Grant: West Kingston, RI; c1987, 400pp hc with color
illustrations by Phil Hale) on sale at Crown or B.  Dalton's?

Here's part of it: THE DARK TOWER, of which DRAWING is the second
volume, is an extended work of straight fantasy, a book whose
setting, style, characters and tone are decidedly different from
King's usual fare.  It doesn't fit into the bestseller market niche,
and King seems to be happy to leave it that way.  King claims to
have been working on the story for seventeen years, starting in his
college days, and the book does feel like a labor of love.  Unlike
the bestsellers, TOWER was not whipped out in a single blast of
energy; in fact the first volume originally appeared as a series of
novelettes in F&SF.  But the mere style of publication is not what
makes this book different from a King bestseller.

The first book, THE GUNSLINGER, tells the story of Roland, the last
gunslinger, who is on a grim journey to capture a sorceror and force
from him the secret to restoring the world to the place from which
it has fallen.  The gunslinger travels across an eerie desert
landscape that is both like and unlike our own West and has traces
of our past and present time embedded in it.  At the climax of the
first book we learn that the gunslinger's quest is far from over,
and we get hints of just how grand the scale of the quest might be
-- to find not just the navel of the universe, but the source of all
the infinity of universes...

THE DRAWING OF THE THREE picks up immediately after the end of THE
GUNSLINGER.  Roland is dying of exhaustion, starvation, infection;
his only rescue lies in another universe, opened to him by the fate
cast upon him at the end of the previous novel.  In this alternate
universe he must find 'the prisoner', 'the lady of shadows' and 'the
pusher'.  The alternate universe of course is our own, and the
gunslinger finds himself lodged in the minds of a drug addict, an
heiress, a shoplifter and more.  If he can overcome the culture
shock and draw out the means to save his own life, if he can
convince or coerce the others into helping him, he may survive -- or
he may not.  Some of what he finds may prove more deadly than
gangrene...

DRAWING is pretty good considering it's the second book in a series
and thus inevitably leaves you hanging (although not from a cliff, a
la Roger Zelazny).  Like the first book, it has some shockingly
violent moments; the violence is entirely appropriate to the mood of
the story, but it's not going to be to the taste of some.  If
DRAWING has a weakness, it's that it spends too much time in our
world and not enough time in the weird, weird world of the
gunslinger; I want to hear more about a culture which resembles an
Elizabethan court, a Japanese warrior caste and a Western movie...
I think the characterizations are unique in King's work, and I found
them to be very striking indeed.  The gunslinger is a character
whose mind and motivations are mostly opaque to the reader, a
mystery.  In books like IT, King trades upon the innocence and easy
identifiability of his characters, characters who are all fragments
of King himself.  The gunslinger and his companions have long ago
lost their innocence, and their actions are sometimes brutal and
anti-heroic.  It really is nice to see King leave some of the
mystery (I use that word again!) in his characters; I like to see
them do things I don't expect, and King sure as hell came up with
things I didn't expect.  The style of TOWER is simultaneously more
vivid and more distant than that of King's other novels -- the
language is positively exuberant at times, sketching in a bleak
landscape or filling out some darkly humorous dialogue, but King
never presents the whole picture, always leaving some suspense.
Overall I think this is going to be by far King's best work and I
can't wait to see what comes next.  (King states that the next
volume will be called THE WASTE LANDS and the one after that will be
WIZARD AND GLASS, with two or three more volumes after that...)

Of course if you take your weird without soda, ice or water, you'll
already know about Howard Waldrop.  Waldrop has built his reputation
on his marvelously self-contained and thoroughly researched short
stories, although he has also produced a damn fine solo novel (THEM
BONES) and a collaborative novel.  The first collection of Waldrop's
stories was called HOWARD WHO? and featured some of Waldrop's most
famous fabulations: 'The Ugly Chickens', 'Heirs of the Perisphere',
'Mary Margaret Road-Grader', 'Ike at the Mike'.  Now a second
collection has appeared called ALL ABOUT STRANGE MONSTERS OF THE
RECENT PAST (Ursus: Kansas City, MO; c1987, 126 pp. hc signed
slipcased with color illustrations, introduction by Gardner Dozois
and afterword by Lewis Shiner).  This first edition is limited to
600 copies, a really paltry run which can't be making much money for
Waldrop.  Shiner says: '[E]veryone knows of Howard's lifelong
compulsion to get the least money for his work...'  For your money,
the book is actually quite well-designed and beautiful to look at,
although there are an inordinate number of typos which should be
corrected if there's ever going to be another edition.  The artists
include Tim Kirk, Don Ivan Punchatz and Hank Jankus.  What else do
you get for your money?

You get 'The Lions Are Asleep This Night', a simply amazing
alternate universe story about a boy in a town in Niger who wishes
to publish a play he's written.  I had somehow missed this story
before buying the collection; if you haven't read it yet either, go
find it, it's stunning.  You get 'Flying Saucer Rock and Roll', in
which those twin obsessions of the '50s reach their apotheosis.  In
'All About Strange Monsters of the Recent Past', those poor
oppressed creatures of the screen finally have their revenge; in
'Helpless, Helpless', the descent of the modern Dark Ages comes
about as a result of a modern Plague; in 'He-We-Await', we find out
what mysterious event led to the end of Pharaoh Sekhemet's reign.
'Fair Game' is the last Ernest Hemingway story -- Hemingway's last
hunt is for a man...

As good as this stuff is, you should be warned that there really is
less than 100 pages worth of Waldrop fiction in this volume.  At
such a size, it may never appear in softcover...  Waldrop has never
been prolific, of course -- he can put six months of research into
even a lesser story.  I hesitate to imagine what he had to do to get
a novel out...  I'm still hoping for another novel, though: is any
con committee out there willing to invite Waldrop on the condition
that he read the next-to-last chapter of his next novel?

I'd be surprised if these books were still in print, but just in
case they are, here is some ordering information:

   Donald M. Grant Publisher, Inc., West Kingston, RI 02892
   Ursus Imprints, 5539 Jackson, Kansas City, MO 64130

(Sorry, I don't have phone numbers.)  I bought my copies from Mark
Ziesing's mail order bookstore; you might also have success checking
with specialty bookstores.  Good luck...

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

PS -- For those of you who might have ordered Gene Wolfe's EMPIRES
OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWER from Cheap Street, the latest word is ~ 2
weeks...  I was hoping to include a review of that here, but it'll
obviously have to wait.  I have high hopes for it...

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 00:54:50 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU (The Duck)
Subject: Re: a couple limited edition books you might have missed
Subject: (King, Waldrop)

Okay, a strong second to all of that, and then some. Waldrop is one
of the few truly distinctive voices in sf, and if you've been
spending a lot of time on the Astral Plane or have been otherwise
occupied and you don't know about him, go find out. His work
generally tends to show up in any best-of-the-year anthology worth
its salt, and there are even a few copies of HOWARD WHO? still
lurking out there (new) - thanks not to lack of demand, but to
Doubleday's quaint marketing strategy (same folks who made looking
for each year's UNIVERSE so much fun - but I digress).

Not that you shouldn't plunk down your money for STRANGE MONSTERS,
mind you.  But this book is clearly pointed at Waldrop fanat-, er,
fans, I mean. I truly hope Donn is right in assuming the book is
sold out, but I got my copy from Ursus a couple of months ago, and
if they're sending them out sequentially, only about half the
available copies were gone, then. (Yes, nudge, nudge, you can order
direct from the publisher.)

Another couple of points, just in case you're wavering. (Let me show
you the paint job on this baby!) The illustrations are beautiful,
some in b&w, some in color. The color illos are reproduced on
heavyweight, glossy stock and pasted to the appropriate page.
(Doubtless, somebody out there in netland knows the technical phrase
for this . . .) For the collector- types among ye, let me point out
that copies are signed, not only by Waldrop himself, but by Dozois,
Shiner, and each of the eight artists who had a hand in the matter.

And, of course, you get seven entries in that rarest of sf
subgenres: the Truly Neat Story. What a deal!

As the estimable Mr. Ed Bryant might have said, read it if you can,
but buy it by all means.

Howard Coleman
ut-sally!utastro!howard
U. Texas Astronomy Dept - Austin

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 01:47:59 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: a couple limited edition books you might have missed
Subject: (King, Waldrop)

From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
>Recently I happened to read a couple of really good books that had
>a fairly limited distribution.  I don't want to tease you, I just
>want to let you know that the books exist and there's still some
>chance that you'll be able to find them...

  Copies of Dark Tower: The Drawing of the Three are still available
from various book stores (Dark Carnival in Berkeley has some, for
example).  But, there are two important things to be aware of:

   (1) The first book "Dark Tower: The Gunslinger" is a VERY
   expensive book. The minimum you are likely to pay for this is
   $300 (if you are after the signed edition, you had best take out
   a mortage).

   (2) Both books are going to have a mass market edition in 1989.
   This is likely to be the best (and easiest) way to get them. I
   have heard that King was paid in the multi-millions for the
   rights, can't say as I blame him for selling them.

Joe Kalash
{ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 03:51:10 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Books in your future -- Avon Winter

Here are the upcoming titles for Avon paperbacks:

December: The Architects of Hyperspace by Thomas R. McDonough (head
of the SETI project). Cover by Ron Walotsky. This is a first novel.

They are re-issuing Windmaster's Bane by Tom Dietz to go along with
the issue of Fireshaper's Doom, the sequel. Both have covers by Tim
White, who's doing the paperback covers for Zelazny's Amber series.
[The covers are stunning -- White's work is consistently the best
I"ve seen in a long time, except perhaps the best of Whelan].
Windmaster's Bane, by the way, is a wonderful book. I'm looking
forward to the sequel.

January: Sea of Glass by Barry Longyear. This got a good review from
Jim Brunet in OtherRealms as a Tor hardcover. Cover by Walotsky.

The Crystal Sword by Adrienne Martine-Barnes, cover by Romas. She's
the author of The Fire Sword.

Cryptozoic! by Brian Aldiss. A reissue.

February: The Legacy of Lehr by Katherine Kurtz. Bright blue
telepathic lions, vampires, and a detective story in a spacechip.
Lots of fun. Cover by Joe DeVito;

The Blind Archer by John Gregory Betancourt. Cover by Romas.

Mindbrige, a re-issue of Joe Haldeman's novel. Cover by Jim Burns.

Finally, we have 14 Vicious Valentines, editbe by Greenberg,
Greenberg, Waugh, and an introduction by Asimov. An anthology of
Valentine Day themed horror stories.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 00:14:30 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!watdcsu!dmcanzi@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Name this short story

From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>Dregs of memory: I think the story starts with the main character
>dining with one of the "CIA"types protecting him.  She's reading a
>paper and makes some small talk about some odd scientific finding
>(like the rate of expansion of the universe is slowing down, or
>something like that) and is later reprimanded by her superior for
>risking bringing his attention to it.
>
>Can anyone out there identify it yet?

I can't identify it, but I can trade dregs for dregs.  The bit about
the expansion of the universe slowing down rings a bell.  I recall a
story in which scientists had noticed that *time* was slowing down.
The slowing of time was not easily detectable because, as time
slowed, physical processes slowed proportionally.  They determined
that time would slow to a standstill and then reverse in about a
week.  I think there was somebody in the story who was supposed to
be kept in the dark, but on the other hand I may be confusing two
stories here.  And the premise that time is slowing down is *so*
wacky, that I can understand if you had any trouble remembering that
detail, you'd replace it with something more credible like a
detectable slowing down of the expansion of the universe.  Could
this be the story you're searching for?

David Canzi

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 14:00:11 GMT
From: leeds@cfa250.harvard.edu (Paul Martenis)
Subject: Re: Name this short story

dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP says:
>From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
>>Dregs of memory: I think the story starts with the main character
>>dining with one of the "CIA"types protecting him.  She's reading a
>>paper and makes some small talk about some odd scientific finding
>>(like the rate of expansion of the universe is slowing down, or
>>something like that)

The speed of light, I think.

>>and is later reprimanded by her superior for risking bringing his
>>attention to it.
>>
>>Can anyone out there identify it yet?
>
> I can't identify it, but I can trade dregs for dregs.

   More dregs: the object of the organizations attentions is a very
normal man who harbors the power or soul of the universe.  He
doesn't now it, but the force within him controls (or is?) the
physical laws of the universe.  This thing is awakening, and as it
does, is messing with the laws of nature, e.g.  the speed of light.
The organization isn't sure what's going on, but they're afraid that
if any harm comes to the man, the spirit may escape the man and
reduce the universe to chaos, so they arrange to protect and coddle
him without his knowledge.  After a few months, he's caught on that
something's going on.  A doctor with the organization believes that
he can control this force, and wants to transfer it to himself,
incidentally giving him absolute power.  His attempt is what force
the climax of the story.
   I read this in "Space Opera", a collection edited by (??) Brian
Aldiss.  My copy is ~250 miles away, but I'll have it in a week and
a half, in case you want more info.

Paul Martenis
Cambridge, MA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  6-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #427
Date:  6 Oct 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #427
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Oct 87 1001-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #427
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 6 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 427

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov (4 msgs) & Brin & Clarke &
                     Ellison & Ford (2 msgs) &
                     Gerrold (3 msgs) & Gibson (4 msgs) &
                     Heinlein (2 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 00:46:43 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Asimov

john@hpcvlo.HP.COM (John Eaton) writes:
>> a short story whose name I forget in which the only alien race is
>> met (other than the aliens in _The End of Eternity_)
>
>What aliens in EOE?

Yes, there *are* aliens in The End of Eternity.  They never actually
appear, but they are mentioned, and they important.

By the way, I have concluded that a major reason I like Asimov as
well as I do (he isn't my favorite author anymore, since I reached
adulthood, but I do still like him quite a bit) is the fact that his
characters so uniformly are *not stupid*.  One gets tired of reading
about supposedly intelligent people who overlook the incredibly
obvious for weeks, months, and even years.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 20:06:15 GMT
From: c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu (Jon Yamato)
Subject: Re: Asimov

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>By the way, I have concluded that a major reason I like Asimov as
>well as I do (he isn't my favorite author anymore, since I reached
>adulthood, but I do still like him quite a bit) is the fact that
>his characters so uniformly are *not stupid*.  One gets tired of
>reading about supposedly intelligent people who overlook the
>incredibly obvious for weeks, months, and even years.

I won't argue likes/dislikes, but I personally found Trevize's
reasoning at the end of Foundation and Earth ("We have to combine
the whole Galaxy into this supermind to which I am personally
opposed because there might be aliens out there (though we've never
met any) and they might be hostile and we might not be able to beat
them...") exceptionally dumb.

Sure, he was a xenophobe, but this is ridiculous.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 17:50:33 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Asimov

>>a short story whose name I forget in which the only alien race is
>>met (other than the aliens in _The End of Eternity_)
>
>What aliens in EOE? Are you thinking of _The Gods Themselves_?
>Asimov has not attempted to make his short stories fit the master
>plan.

The aliens in EOE are not characters in the story, just part of the
background.  But I find it curious that you should overlook them,
since they are crucial to the story -- human/alien conflict being
the motivation for the plot to destroy Eternity (see the last couple
of chapters).

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 21:23:55 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!aeusesef@RUTGERS.EDU (sean fagan)
Subject: Re: Asimov

>a short story whose name I forget in which the only alien race is
>met (other than the aliens in _The End of Eternity_)

In one of his 'humanoid' stories (you know, the one where many
planets had intelligent species, but they were all pretty much
humanoid?), he had a planet of aliens (the only intelligent
non-humanoids discovered in the galaxy) who were also possibly
telepathic (the head honcho said something to the effect of 'you
could think of it like that').

***PSEUDO-SPOILER***

The aliens planet was LOUSY.  It could barely support their life,
and they did not enjoy living on it.  At the end of the story, they
ended up building a ship and taking it elsewhere (found a nice new
planet, and none of the humanoids knew where it was).

John Eaton (hplabs!hp-pcd!john) writes:
>What aliens in EOE? Are you thinking of _The Gods Themselves_?
>Asimov has not attempted to make his short stories fit the master
>plan.

I believe that he subtly (hah!) worked in his humanoids into the
master plan.

Sean Eric Fagan
Office of Computing/Communications Resources
Suite 2600
(213) 852 5742
5670 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
1GTLSEF@CALSTATE.BITNET
{litvax, rdlvax, psivax, hplabs, ihnp4}!csun!aeusesef

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 11:37:23 GMT
From: katerina!c188-bl@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven Brian McKechnie Sargent)
Subject: David Brin

Brin's dolphin books (/Sundiver/, /Startide Rising/, /The Uplift
War/) are all wonderful: big, heroic, and a little silly, just like
the best of Star Trek, which is getting so much discussion in this
group.  Brin's universe, in which humans are not the high-powered
lords of the realm, but rather, fairly insignificant weaklings who
must get by on luck and wit, is to me quite plausible and
intriguing, and he advances his plots by having his characters solve
real technical, personal, and moral problems, rather than by
Roddenberry ex machina.

/The Postman/ is basically a free adaptation of /Lucifer's Hammer/,
except that since Brin is a writer, and Niven and Pournelle are
quacks (cf. /Footfall/), /The Postman/ is the better book.  /The
Heart of the Comet/ is trashy fun, but not quite as good as the
others, presumably because it's diluted by Gregory Benford.  (I
found Benford's /Into the Ocean of Night/ to be a little strained.)
/The Practice Effect/ is cute, although it really lets down toward
the end.  /The River of Time/ is a collection of variable-quality
short stories; all in all, though, Brin's talent shows best on the
big canvas.  If you have a taste for huge adventure epics, even a
guilty one, he's right about tops.

Read all the Philip K. Dick you can get ahold of.  It's good for you.

S.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 01:02:51 GMT
From: uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Clarke signs $4m book deal

Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@sun.UUCP) writes:
>>The main book of the contract is Rendevous with Rama II,  ...
>>... cliffhanger ending of the first book.
>
> Oh, let me clarify. Cliffhanger was Publishers Weekly['s] word,
> not mine.  ... We all know a second of those things is going to
> show up, but then what?

Anthropocentrism alert!  Anthropocentrism alert!

We all know that there are two more of those things *out there*, but
what makes it likely that they would be anywhere near us?  They
should have been launched to three *different* destinations.  The
first one had no interest in us, so why should we expect the others
to come this way?

Unless, of course, they felt the project was so important that they
did it by nines, launching three on each path...

Mark Brader
SoftQuad Inc.
Toronto
utzoo!sq!msb
msb@sq.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 October 1987 00:00:03 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: _I, Robot_ by Ellison (was: In this month's Asimov's....)

Ellid%UMASS.BITNET (Lisa Evans) writes:
>. . .  From what I've seen, it would have made a hell of a film -
>it's Citizen Kane with Susan Calvin as Kane, or so Ellison says.
>Whatever, the script is marvelous.  . . .  This could mean another
>Hugo for Ellison - it's certainly a treat for the readers....

Not this reader; at least, not yet.  I haven't been able to get
through the first installment.  I found Harlan's device for creating
anti-robot sentiment on earth, a fire-breathing evangelist, rather
tedious.  Still, I'm going to slog through it to find out about
Susan Calvin.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 23:24:47 GMT
From: haste+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Dani Zweig)
Subject: How Much for Just the Planet

Read this book!

What's that?  You don't read Star Trek novels?  Very smart.  Neither
do I, unless someone who outweighs me by at least a hundred pounds
insists.  Luckily for me someone did.

John Ford has written "The Dragon Waiting", so anyone who's read
that will know he can write.  In this book he proves that he can
write slapstick -- *good* slapstick; my sides are still hurting.

It's not Art, but it may be the best easy read of the year.

Read this book.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 19:59:37 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Who are Rick and Janet?

The dedications in "How Much for Just the Planet?" name Pamela &
David, Diane & Peter, Janet & Rick.  The first four are easy, but
who are the last two?

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 21:19:37 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com
Subject: Chtorr (David Gerrold's Books)

O.K.  I have just finished one of Gerrold's books involving a battle
between humans and the Chtorr.  This book was labeled Volume I.

I was wondering...

Are there any more books to this series...

Plus I can't seemed to find Gerrold's books in any of the book stores
in my area (BOSTON).  Could somebody compound a list of his books
for me?

dredick@g.bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 02:06:20 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Chtorr (David Gerrold's Books)

> O.K.  I have just finished one of Gerrold's books involving a
> battle between humans and the Chtorr.  This book was labeled
> Volume I.
>
> Are there any more books to this series...

Well, it's a long story... Gerrold had a little fight with the
publisher of the Chtorr books over a contract (I won't even TRY to
tell it the way he did at Octocon last year -- he basically tore the
contract up into tiny, tiny pieces and sent it back in a baggie).
Needless, the books have been bought back by Gerrold and resold to a
new publisher, and they are currently out of print (I'd expect them
back probably around the first of the year, the way things go).

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 21:13:25 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com (Donald Redick)
Subject: Re: Chtorr (David Gerrold's Books)

O.K. I see what happened, but what are the titles to the book's in
Gerrold's Chtorr Series, I've only seen the first one.

Don

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 87 21:42:16 GMT
From: cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Ice & William Gibson

HAXT2860@UDCVAX.BITNET writes:
>Anyway, as a fan of Gibson's I wonder if I'll be seeing any
>flatlining, decks, and ice(intrusion counter measure electronics)
>in this movie. I know the hero jacks into the Aliens computers and
>do battle with the Aliens ice...that I wouldn't mind seeing. Let's
>just hope that Gibson doesn't pull o' Wilson.

This is not about Aliens, it's about ice.  I've only heard "ice," in
this context, mentioned once before.  It was in a short fiction
story in OMNI.  There were a couple of computer-espionage types who
were trying to worm their way into this particular system, and ran
up against what they called "Black Ice," meaning *lethal* electronic
countermeasures.  Before I dig through my old issues of OMNI, can
someone tell me if this is a Gibson story?  If it is, where can I
find more?

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 87 00:43 EST
From: <HAXT2860%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Aliens III & William Gibson

I just read in the Washington Post Style section that William Gibson
author of Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Burning Chrome has just been
signed to write the screenplay to Aliens III(if this has already
been posted then forgive. I'm just getting to read my mail...a back
log).

Anyway, as a fan of Gibson's I wonder if I'll be seeing any
flatlining, decks, and ice(intrusion counter measure electronics) in
this movie. I know the hero jacks into the Aliens computers and do
battle with the Aliens ice...that I wouldn't mind seeing. Let's just
hope that Gibson doesn't pull o' Wilson.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 23:27:00 GMT
From: repoman!zabaly@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Aliens III & William Gibson

Gibson was first published in Omni, so it's likely Gibson who wrote
the story you're thinking of. His collection of short fiction (which
probably includes the aforementioned story) "Burning Chrome" is
available in hardcover, and is coming out in paperback in October.
The publisher is Ace.
   Hope that helps. Also, both of his novels "Neuromancer" and
"Count Zero" are also Ace paperbacks.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 20:08:11 GMT
From: umix!itivax!chinet!clif@RUTGERS.EDU (Clif Flynt)
Subject: Re: Aliens III & William Gibson

zabaly@repoman.UUCP writes:
>Gibson was first published in Omni, so it's likely Gibson who wrote
>the

Actually, Gibson was published previous to the formation of Omni in a
'zine called "Unearth".  It might have been Number 2... Had a green
cover...  Gibson's story was titled something like "Hologram of a
Shattered Rose".  This was sometime like 1977.

That issue also had Somtow Sucharitikul's first story.

Unearth only published previously unpublished authors, which makes
it likely that these were the authors' first published stories.

Clif Flynt
ihnp4!chinet!clif

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 19:31:48 GMT
From: gh1g+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Gregg Fielding Hinderstein)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions

My main complain with NOTB was the constant emphasis on "Absolute
obidience or I quit" Hear every character act like a child whenever
they're disobeyed became very annoying.  Heinlein has often touched
on "The captain of the lifeboat must be obeyed without question",
but he went overboard here.

I would also like to say that Heinlein would probably be more
enjoyable if you don't analyze it so much.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 19:39:51 GMT
From: gh1g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gregg Fielding Hinderstein)
Subject: Re: Heinlein Questions (William Baker)

I have to strongly disagree with you.

While I consider TNOTB to be a distaster,

Job was the first Heinlein I ever read and it turned me into an
instant fan.

Friday, Cat who walks through walls, and To Sail Beyond the Sunset
where some of the best books I've read anywhere.

LONG LIVE THE KING!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 19:53:39 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Kurtz / Deryni Books

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>According to those, Kurtz has at least *three* more Deryni
>trilogies planned.

I hope she writes some other stuff, too.  The Deryni books are all
right, but getting a bit tiring.  On the other hand, Lammas Night
(sp?), the one non-Deryni book by Kurtz I have read, is probably her
best.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

From: boelke%eduhci.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (05-Oct-1987 1059)
Date: 5 Oct 87 10:59
Subject: Kurtz/Deryni

From: c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu (Jon Yamato)
>It is also puzzling that although Deryni have been persecuted for
>hundreds of years by Kelson's time, they seem to outnumber humans,

   Where do you see this?  Yes, the Deryni outnumber the human as
far as the main characters are concerned, but then this is the
Deryni Series...

>and that although her discussion of the genetics implies that many
>of the children of Deryni- human (and even Deryni-Deryni) marriages
>should be human, there are practically no such characters in the
>books.

   This does seem to be an inconsistency.

>Also, humans with Deryni powers seem unaccountably widespread,
>given that until recently the phenomenon was recognized only in the
>royal family.

   I can think of one outside of the Royal Family, and that was in
the Camber Series.  Also, from what I have gotten out of the books,
ANYONE can have shields of some kind, this is not a Deryni only
'talent'.

>Kurtz would just rather write about Deryni, I guess, but I find
>that this makes the books feel implausible.

   Why so?  Again, Deryni are the topic of the books.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #428
Date:  7 Oct 87 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #428
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 87 0903-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #428
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 428

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 14:27:47 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>That's strictly on a rather gross scale.  The transporter is
>working at the atomic and molecular level, where anything above
>absolute 0 degrees is moving about.
>
>In order for the transporter to even being to work correctly, it
>would have to know not only what kind of atom was at each
>particular location, but also it's velocity vector.  I suppose to
>transport things that don't have running,

This is not only purest speculation, It is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE
to do.  The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle (which is an
experimentally verified FACT) forbids it.

dP dX > hbar

i.e. The product of the uncertainty in the object's momentum (P)
times the uncertainty in its position (X) must always be greater
than hbar.  This is a slight oversimplification but essentially
correct.

>moving parts at the time of transport you could "simply" store the
>velocity as a scalar, but that doesn't seem to simplify the problem
>much.  If you can distinguish an individual atom precisely in a
>framework, it's not going to be much harder to figure out how fast
>it's moving and in what direction.

See above.  You can do one or the other but not both. Also, if you
measure either the position vector or the momentum vector EXACTLY,
then the error in measuring the other is infinite.

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 09:01:49 GMT
From: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Star Trek and Science

From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> The thing that has got me stumped, however, is where does the body
> go?  On the screen it disappears, but something should remain
> (ashes or something) ? When it is reduced to pure energy, then
> where does that energy go? A human body is a lot of "pure energy"
> (remember E=mc2). If it evaporates, why don't we see any "vapors"
> (should have great dramatic effect on the screen though, a nice
> puff was all there was left of him.....)  Anyone any comments???
> Or comments on any other "scientific discrepancies" for that
> matter???

If the body turns into carbon-dioxide, hydrogen and ozone, you won't
see much of it. I suspect the real reason for this effect is that
when "Star Trek" first appeared, TV viewers (and censors) were more
sensitive. It wouldn't have done to have corpses with
energy-produced scorch marks lying around. Having the body disappear
was much less messy. Maybe producing a puff of vapour was too
difficult, or too expensive.

My question is, how do transporters work? In a totally unrelated
book, 3 methods were suggested.

1. Matter is converted to energy, beamed somewhere and re-converted.
Problems: E=mc2. Forget Death Star, just beam down a whale:-). Also,
what if some of the energy is lost in the equipment, or in the
atmosphere?

2. Matter is disintegrated, but analyzed and turned into a signal
(see "TRON" for something similar). Problems: What if someone has a
radio jammer, or similar? Also, good for forgers. Beam down a
dollar/pound coin, but record the signal. Then keep on beaming...

3. Via some sort of hyperspace.

Please comment on these, or other, theories.

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 87 11:02 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: ST:TNG

By the time this is published, the Premier will have probably been
shown, but I have a question.  Having just seen STIII, the Search
For Spock, is it safe to assume that the Enterprise NCC 1701D will
be equipped with the TransWarp Drive?  What about the NCC 1701A,
shown at the end of STIV, the Voyage Home?  Will it have the
TransWarp Drive?

While on the subject of the TransWarp Drive, does anyone have any
idea how it works?  My understanding is that it is a combination of
Transporter and Warp drive technologies, but I could be wrong.
Comments would be appreciated, and we thank you for your support.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 87 09:55:20 PDT
From: Mark D. Baushke <silvlis!amadeus!mdb@Sun.COM>
Subject: Star Trek: TNG, writer guide & scripts

A writers guide is available for anyone interested in Star Trek: The
Next Generation. It is available from:

   Lincoln Enterprises
   P.O. Box 691370
   Los Angles, CA 90069
   +1 (213) 462-0181

The script for the first episode of ST:TNG "Encounter at Farpoint"
will be available early next week.

Later scripts will be available.

Information provided is strictly for the enlightenment of members of
the net I have no connection with Star Trek: TNG or Lincoln
Enterprises. I have just ordered the writers guide myself.

I watched "Encounter at Farpoint" last night. It was not bad at all.
I was not sure what to expect. They even had one guest star playing
a 137 year old Admiral. Enjoy.

Mark Baushke
uucp: sun!silvlis!mdb
bell: +1 (415) 969-8328

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 01:05:18 GMT
From: g-humphr@gumby.wisc.edu (Bill Humphries)
Subject: Re: Star Trek and Science

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
> From: U00254%HASARA5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>> The thing that has got me stumped, however, is where does the
>> body go?  On the screen it disappears, but something should
>> remain (ashes or something)
 [ Deleted Stuff ]
>If the body turns into carbon-dioxide, hydrogen and ozone, you
>won't see much of it. I suspect the real reason for this effect is
>that when "Star Trek" first appeared, TV viewers (and censors) were
>more sensitive. It wouldn't have done to have corpses with
>energy-produced scorch marks lying around. Having the body
>disappear was much less messy. Maybe producing a puff of vapour was
>too difficult, or too expensive.

   Which brings to mind a related matter.  Now you could end it with
"Shut up Bill, that was a fantasy."  However, since the issue of
shipping people around without bending spacetime to order is on the
venue...
   Where does Jennie find all the matter to reconstruct her body
from?  All you see herself propagate from is a thin cloud of smoke.
If you take the assumption that she could fabricate organics from
the surrounding environment, then Major Nelson's home would be
trashed by hurricane force winds everytime she materialized.  Since
this is a fantasy show, any wild speculation on methods is open.

1) The Greg Bear/Eon Memorial Topological Explaination:
   The cloud of smoke is a side effect of Jennie going from one
   space to another.  After all, we don't know if the interior of
   the lamp is in this space.

2) The Von Neuman Machine Solution

   The cloud of smoke is a blue print for making Jennie.  She's a
   Von Neuman machine.

3) The Closed Hull Explaination
   Well, Djini aren't human.  So maybe she's just a hollow balloon?
   The smoke is enough to make a monomolecular skin and let illusion
   and magic take care of the rest.

   And in response to the previous question.  Check into some of
Niven's stories containing a variant on transfer booths. "All the
Bridges Rusting" from _A Hole in Space_ comes to mind.  The material
transferred was converted to a neutron-like particle that could move
at near lightspeed.  The receiving station would then decode the
incomming particle.  A nice solution to the matter/energy dillema.
Of course since McCoy has made several remarks about "molecules
scattered all over the universe".  It probably isn't consistent with
the ST universe.
   But then, you can say, "But Star Trek's just a TV show, not S/F!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 87 16:49:13 EDT
From: dml@NADC.ARPA (D. Loewenstern)
Subject: Star Trek transporters -- how they (can't) work

Just to add to the discussion...

  Clearly, a transporter could not beam up a glass of water without
generating a stasis field at both ends.  Otherwise, a molecule could
move into the gap created when another molecule was transported
away.  At the receiving end, the second molecule would beam into the
same place as the first, causing two molecules to share the same
space!

  Even worse, a transporter could not beam up a single electron
without generating a stasis field at the transmitting end.  If you
remember the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, you cannot know both
momentum (here read velocity) and position of a particle to infinite
precision.  Indeed, the more carefully you measure the position of a
particle (by shining high-energy photons on it, for example), the
more you disrupt its momentum, causing the particle to shoot off for
parts unknown at an unpredictable velocity.  Unless you believe that
the Federation has discovered the secret of action-at-a- distance,
they must have found some way to cause particles to "hold still"
while being probed -- the stasis field.

  This use of a stasis field seems to make sense, since transporting
people takes a substantial amount of time, and during that time, the
people do not seem to blink or otherwise move.  It looks like time
has stopped for them.

  My question is, if the Federation knows how to make stasis fields,
why don't they use them in other places?  As Vernor Vinge (_The
Peace War_) and Larry Niven (slaver boxes) know, a stasis field is a
dandy place to put things you want to keep, since nothing can harm
something in stasis.  For example, you could ring the Enterprise
with stasis fields.  Any object trying to hit the ship would then
have to go through the fields -- but nothing can go through the
fields, since time has stopped within the fields.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Oct 87 00:00:02 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Transporters in ST

James Blish's explanation was that the transporter forced each
particle in the body to make a Dirac jump to the new location. Does
that actually exist?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 20:34:17 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!spw2562@RUTGERS.EDU (Steve Wall)
Subject: Re: Star Trek transporters -- how they (can't) work

dml@NADC.ARPA writes:
>For example, you could ring the Enterprise with stasis fields.  Any
>object trying to hit the ship would then have to go through the
>fields -- but nothing can go through the fields, since time has
>stopped within the fields.

I can see the usefulness of that...

"Cap'n, the warp drives have failed, the phasers have been hit, the
shields are down, and we're out of photon torpedoes!"

"Captain, readings indicate another attack."

Captain: "We'll have to take..... Emergency Measures..."

"But, cap'n..."

captain: "Do it!"

"Aye, sir.  Engaging Stasis fie...."

2000 yrs later, they're still sitting there waiting for the order to
disengage stasis fields which will never come since the captain is
stasisized, which they couldn't carry out because they are
stasisized themselves, as are the controls, and the electrons in the
computer.  And starfleet can't do anything besides sitting there and
watching, because if they try to go in, they get stasisized, and
remote control won't work because there is no electricity.

imagine all the space dust building up as it drifts into the stasis
field... there'd be a solid shell around them sooner or later....

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 04:03:23 GMT
From: uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Warp and TransWarp Theories (was Re: ST:TNG)

alexande@gumby.wisc.edu (Michael Alexander) writes:
>Gort@UMass writes:
>> While on the subject of the TransWarp Drive, does anyone have any
>> idea how it works?
>
>  One idea I have heard on the subject is comparing space to a
>  piece of paper.  The idea is that to conventionally travel across
>  a sheet of paper(space) takes too long because the large distance
>  needed to travel across. The Trans-Warp is like folding the paper
>  so the ends touch, then the distance is very minute, cross to the
>  other end and then unfold the paper(space)

That's the way I always thought the ** OLD ** Warp Drive worked.
Maybe TransWarp is the same thing, only considerably more powerful
(like turbine vs. piston aircraft engines).

I would like to expand on this subject, however, by adding some of
my own detail to the theory stated above by Mike:

If one could indeed make the two parts of the sheet touch as Mike
describes, then one could almost instantaneously make a trip from
one point in space to another point light-years away.  However, in
ST such trips are seen to take days, if not weeks or months, even
under Warp Drive.

My own picture of what happens with the Warp Drive is similar to
Mike's scenario, except that the two distant points DO NOT TOUCH,
but are simply drawn MUCH CLOSER to each other as space is "folded"
or contracted via the Warp engines.

As the Warp field generated by the engines holds these distant
points close to each other, the starship attached to these engines
pops into "subspace", and uses its impulse engines to propel itself
through subspace until it reaches its desired destination at the
other end of the Warp.  In fact, from what I have seen of quotes
from "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise", the fusion "impulse"
reactors are indeed used under Warp.  (My guess is that "subspace"
is a fourth spatial dimension that normal space can be "folded
through", much as a two-dimensional piece of paper is folded through
a third dimension.)

If this is indeed the way the Warp Drive functions, then perhaps the
TransWarp drive on the Excelsior is simply the first implementation
of a more powerful Warp Drive that can pull two distant points in
space that much closer together.

NOW: If you could build a Warp generator powerful enough to actually
bring the two distant points together, then you'd REALLY be in Fat
City -- you'd have a StarGate!!  In fact, maybe that's how the
Transporter works -- for short distances, maybe the two points CAN
be made to touch . . . but that's another discussion.

This is, of course, speculation, and is not based on quotes from
Chief Engineer Scott or any other official Federation source.

How's that, Gort?

malc@tahoe.UUCP.unr.edu
University of Nevada - Reno

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 02:10:56 GMT
From: jb7m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon C. R. Bennett)
Subject: Re: Warp and TransWarp Theories (was Re: ST:TNG)

Trans-Warp works in conjunction with the ships transporter in effect
beaming the ship through space. (This is from a REAL source stop
applying your theories of FTL to a story that already has it's own).

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 22:13:07 GMT
From: mtune!homxb!roger@RUTGERS.EDU (R.TAIT)
Subject: Re: Star Trek transporters -- how they (can't) work

dml@NADC.ARPA writes:
>   My question is, if the Federation knows how to make stasis
> fields, why don't they use them in other places?  As Vernor Vinge
> (_The Peace War_) and Larry Niven (slaver boxes) know, a stasis
> field is a dandy place to put things you want to keep, since
> nothing can harm something in stasis.  For example, you could ring
> the Enterprise with stasis fields.  Any object trying to hit the
> ship would then have to go through the fields -- but nothing can
> go through the fields, since time has stopped within the fields.

Enclosing your ship in a stasis field won't do anything but turn you
into a sitting duck.  If you've enclosed your starship in a stasis
field for protection, someone else has to get you out.  If they're
hostile (I'd call this a pretty good bet), they have infinitely more
time to prepare for the opening of the field than you do. Your only
chance of survival is to prepare to throw everything you have at
anyone outside the field BEFORE you go hide. If you hit anything,
it's because you're a lucky shot, and if you've been surrounded by
friendly forces, they won't appreciate it much.

Roger Tait
... ihnp4!homxb!roger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #429
Date:  7 Oct 87 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #429
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 87 0924-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #429
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 429

Today's Topics:

              Books - Comments about Authors (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 07:33:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Anthony & Chalker

I've been reading this board for a while now and I'm starting to
wonder if there is anyone out there that reads anything other than
Bear/Card/RH/ Niven/Zelazny???

Not that I've anything against these authors, in fact, they are
among my favorites, but what about some of the other writers out
there?

Myself, I enjoy Piers Anthony, Jack Chalker, David Brin, Raymond E.
Feist and James P. Blaylock, to name a few.

Anyone else like these authors?  Care to discuss their works?

Anyone know anything about Axolotl Press?  They have a title called
Axolotl Double I'm interested in getting, but the local WaldenBooks
can't find them in their book catalogs.

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 22:37:16 GMT
From: leech@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

>Myself, I enjoy Piers Anthony, Jack Chalker, David Brin, Raymond E.
>Feist and James P. Blaylock, to name a few.  Anyone else like these
>authors?  Care to discuss their works?

    Anthony & Chalker have written only one book each (it might even
be the same book in both cases). Change names, locations, and find a
different way of labeling "magic" as "science" (in Chalker's case)
and you have a new book. Timothy Zahn shows signs of falling prey to
this with his "Triplet" - hopefully it won't turn into a series.

Jon Leech
leech@cs.unc.edu
mcnc!unc!leech

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 19:53:59 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!utastro!howard@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
> Myself, I enjoy Piers Anthony, Jack Chalker, David Brin, Raymond
> E. Feist and James P. Blaylock, to name a few.  Anyone else like
> these authors?  Care to discuss their works?  Anyone know anything
> about Axolotl Press?  They have a title called Axolotl Double I'm
> interested in getting, but the local WaldenBooks can't find them
> in ther book catalogs.

  Blaylock seems to inspire vigorous reactions, pro and con, and I
don't think people have decided yet how to take his work. His latest
novel but one, HOMUNCULUS, won this year's Philip K. Dick Award, and
"Paper Dragons" won the World Fantasy Award last year, but his
fiction still gives some folks problems.

  His characters live in worlds that are a little more susceptible
to modification by the imagination than is usually the case. It can
be difficult to decide just where the players' offbeat perceptions
take up and the "real world" leaves off in a Blaylock story.
"Suspension of disbelief", in Blaylock's case, also requires not
worrying about what the rules are. In a way, his fictions are as
much *about* fantasy as they are themselves fantasy.  I think the
result is terrific, but I can see where it would leave some feeling
a little shaky.

  I haven't read Blaylock's first two novels (which look like more
convention- al fantasies - but probably aren't). Of the last three,
THE DIGGING LEVIATHAN is my favorite. It's a wonderful example of
Blaylock's ability to create beautifully weird characters. I
wouldn't recommend it to anyone who wants to understand what's going
on by the time he finishes a novel, though. After LEVIATHAN, I
slightly prefer his most recent book, LAND OF DREAMS (out in
hardcover for a couple of months), which is a sort of extension of
"Paper Dragons". HOMUNCULUS is a lot of fun, with evil characters
bearing evil names like Willis Pule and Ignacio Narbondo, and has
plenty of sf-nal references to writers like Delany and Wells.
(References to - and characters from - Tim Powers occur in
HOMUNCULUS and DIGGING LEVIATHAN.)

  Axolotl Press is a small press that publishes single or double
story volumes in signed, limited editions that are, I hear, always
sold out before printing. You can buy Axolotl Press publications
from specialty dealers or bookstores. Dealers' tables at conventions
can be a good place to check, as well.

Howard Coleman
seismo!ut-sally!utastro!howard

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 16:17:07 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

>I've been reading this board for a while now and I'm starting to
>wonder if there is anyone out there that reads anything other than
>Bear/Card/RH/ Niven/Zelazny???

Nope. Of course not... You forgot Asimov.

And Tolkien for that matter.

>Myself, I enjoy Piers Anthony, Jack Chalker, David Brin, Raymond E.
>Feist and James P. Blaylock, to name a few.

>Anyone else like these authors?  Care to discuss their works?

I was once accused of the heinous sin of reading Anthony, but I got
better... (hee-hee. Actually, I like the Incarnations, and was even
threatened with a bit part in the author's note for #6...)

>Anyone know anything about Axolotl Press?  They have a title called
>Axolotl Double I'm interested in getting, but the local WaldenBooks
>can't find them in their book catalogs.

They're a very small press based in Washington. Waldenbooks and the
chains probably couldn't order from them because Axolotl isn't
handled through a distributor but direct ordered. The specialize in
limited edition signed/numbered fare, too. It is pretty literally a
one man shop -- I talked to the publisher at Westercon for a while,
and it sounds like he's got some pretty good stuff going.

If you want to contact them, write to:

The Axolotl Press
3915 1st Ave N.E.
Seattle, WA 98105

If you are looking for a place to order, you need to track down a
specialty shop. If there isn't one in your area, you'll need to find
one that mail orders.

A few hints: The Science Fiction shop (I think that is the name...)
in New York City. Victor Hugo's in Minneapolis; The Change of Hobbit
in Santa Monica, CA. The Other Change of Hobbit in Berkeley, and
Future Fantasy in Palo Alto. I KNOW I'm leaving lots out, folks, so
don't yell if your favorite isn't here.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 02:41:49 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>I've been reading this board for a while now and I'm starting to
>wonder if there is anyone out there that reads anything other than
>Bear/Card/RH/ Niven/Zelazny???

These are just the ones everyone has read, and thinks reasonably
well enough of to start a discussion.  There's been a few times when
I've tried to start a discussion about a less known author; it
doesn't work.  Until a few other people have read stuff by the
author, there won't be any discussion.  (Of all the authors above,
Zelazny is the only author whose books I'd buy sight unseen,
hardcover or softcover.  The others' talents are not as consistent.)

>Myself, I enjoy Piers Anthony, Jack Chalker, David Brin, Raymond E.
>Feist and James P. Blaylock, to name a few.  Anyone else like these
>authors?

No (well, some).

>Care to discuss their works?

Yes.  Anthony is the 2nd worst SF writer in all history (Terry
Brooks is the worst).  J. Chalker is a hack - everything he writes
reads exactly the same (he's got a few moderately good ones,
though).

Brin has a very interesting cosmos with his Uplift universe, and he
writes reasonably well.  I buy his books (paperback), but I don't
write home about them.

Feist's Magician trilogy has very stereotypical characters, but he
develops them well - also good dialogue & action.  I'd buy his next
book if it was paperback or an SFBC selection, but not a hardcover.
Its too early to tell how good he is.

I've never heard of Blaylock.  What's he written?

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 15:53:45 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

Tim Iverson:
> Yes.  Anthony is the 2nd worst SF writer in all history (Terry
> Brooks is the worst).  J. Chalker is a hack - everything he writes
> reads exactly the same (he's got a few moderately good ones,
> though).

Terry Brooks is a SF author? (throwing rotten tomatoes at Tim)

I try not to condemn ANY author right at the start. If I had
followed everything I read on SF-Lovers, I never would have bought
On a Pale Horse, which for my money was a good read. The later books
weren't quite of that high quality, but still enjoyable.

Yes, Chalker has some moderately good ones. And I'm sorry, but
everything he writes does NOT read exactly the same. Only 90% of it.
:-)

> Feist's Magician trilogy has very stereotypical characters, but he
> develops them well - also good dialogue & action.  I'd buy his
> next book if it was paperback or an SFBC selection, but not a
> hardcover.  Its too early to tell how good he is.

He lifts too much from Tolkien, and his characters do start out like
cardboard. As Tim says, he does develop them well, and overall his
books are a fun read if you're not looking for any kind of deep
meaning that's going to stay with you for years.

Bill Wisner
ihnp4!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 02:44:00 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

>    Anthony & Chalker have written only one book each (it might
>even be the same book in both cases). Change names, locations, and
>find a different way of labeling "magic" as "science" (in Chalker's
>case) and you have a new book. Timothy Zahn shows signs of falling
>prey to this with his "Triplet" - hopefully it won't turn into a
>series.

I will go along with you on Chalker, though I enjoy his works
non-the-less, but you must not have read very much of Anthony's
works to take that stand.  If you are only familiar with his Xanth
books, I can see that...Or only the Apprentice Adept/Incarnations of
Immortality ones, but have you read Steppe or Tree?  MacroScope?  Boi
of a Space Tyrant?  Taot?  Chain series?

Good grief, the man writes about all sorts of different themes!

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 05:08:00 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>>    Anthony & Chalker have written only one book each (it might
>>even be the same book in both cases). Change names, locations,
>>[...]
>you must not have read very much of Anthony's works to take that
>stand.  If you are only familiar with his Xanth books, I can see
>that...Or only the Apprentice Adept/Incarnations of Immortality
>ones, but have you read Steppe or Tree?  MacroScope?  Boi of a
>Space Tyrant?  Taot?  Chain series?

Since I generally give a popular author more of chance than an
unknown (especialy when friends push the books at me - READ THIS,
its MUCH better than the other one ...), I read the 1st Xanth book,
3 Split Infinities, 3 Tarots, & 2 Carnations of Immortality.

>Good grief, the man writes about all sorts of different themes!

You are mistaking plot for theme.  Plot is what happens.  Theme is
why it happens.  The theme is always GOOD (that's Christian Good)
versus EVIL (Christian Evil).  GOOD always wins.

A couple of other things you're missing: the characters are always
amazingly slow and stupid, he obviously doesn't understand how to
use symbolism or allegory/simily/metaphor, and he doesn't know how
to develop a character.  His stories read as primitive morality
plays, where the character starts out with the typical Christian
"Good" values and then is lead through a series of plot twists which
procede to show without a doubt that *he* does indeed have the one
correct morality.

This reminds me of another point.  I would guess that he has never
talked to a woman his entire life.  Certainly his female characters
are the most unreal, boring, and vapid characters ever to grace the
printed page.

If you blindly subscribe to the standard Christian ethics - i.e.
Good shall prevail (and we're Good); sex without marriage is evil;
women are dizzy, emotional, and highly dependent objects (not
people); and violence is bad and only sick people enjoy it - then
you'll like Anthony's stuff alot.  Personally, I disagree with all
of these precepts - they're stupid.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 20:25:38 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Re: Anthony & Chalker (really, David Brin)

Chuq Von Rospach writes:
>I was once accused of the heinous sin of reading Anthony, but I got
>better... (hee-hee. Actually, I like the Incarnations, and was even
>threatened with a bit part in the author's note for #6...)

I'm confused.  Do you mean that you were threatened in the Author's
Notes in Incarnations #6 (which hasn't been written) that you will
show up in a bit part in a later Anthony novel, or that you were
threatened somewhere else that you will have a bit part in the
Author's Notes of the to-be-written Incarnations #6?  Or that you
were threatened in an Author's Note for a bit part in Incarnations
#6?  Lastly, may one inquire where one might find this threat?

P.S.  I'm just now reading the "Well of Souls" pentalogy.  Not bad!

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
(415) 857-6236

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 20:48:06 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@RUTGERS.EDU (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

leech@unc.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) writes:
>     Anthony & Chalker have written only one book each (it might
> even be the same book in both cases).

Burroughs, of course, is one of the original one-book authors.
Someone told me that Alex Dumas also falls into this category (I've
only read a couple of his--not enough to form an opinion).  Hmm.
Perhaps I shouldn't ask for other one-book authors--too much
opportunity to slam your favorite author.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 00:04:21 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

I have to disagree violently with the statement (used to death
around here) that so-and-so, Feist in this case, lifts too much from
Tolkien.  Where?  I was not aware that human invaders from another
world attact using mostly non magical means (other than the means to
arrive itself) and try to conquer a new (to them) world was the
theme of LOTR.  Nor is the theme from the next two books set in this
world related to JRRT and the fifth book is not related to much of
anything (the one with Janny Wurtz).

I must say, I also tire of the 'stereotyped character syndrome".  In
a fantasy world setting, there are only so many 'types' to choose
from.  After so many years and so many stories/books, what do you
expect?

Sword of Shannara was heavily influenced by JRRT's LOTR's, Brooks
states as much.  It was reading LOTR's that decided him to write in
the first place.  If you've read ANY of his other works, you'll see
that that changed immedeately.

Brooks is in fact, responsible for the resurgence of fantasy as a
whole.  His Shannara books were the first fantasy books to go best
seller in TRADE editions ever - this is the rule of thumb measure
used by publishers to determine if a genre is popular - do any of
the books go best in trade.

Anthony is, in my mind, one of the most maligned writers in the
field.  But I rather doubt this bothers him, since he is also the
Most Read, beating in current popularity Every Other SF&F author out
there, even the old time heavy-weights.  Could it be that, rather
than being 'meaningful', 'significant' or 'relavent' his books are
simple 'enjoyable'?

I will admit that all of Chalkers books have the same theme - I
happen to like them none-the-less.

****FLAME OFF****

Sorry about that, but it has been accumulating for a long time now!

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #430
Date:  7 Oct 87 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #430
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 87 0938-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #430
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 430

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 09:08:04 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Max Headroom - second show
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

   I just finished watching the second Max Headroom show of the
season.  I don't want to sound negative, but it was a load of donkey
$%"&.  I can't believe that they have run out of ideas so fast that
they are now using such overworked subjects as the exposing of
television religious groups.  Let's face it, if the best plot they
can come up with is "Organized group blackmails reporter by
kidnapping best friend so reporter won't air story", then they might
as well pack up the set and do something else.

   The scene in bed was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's
back.  What is the point of such a scene when it does not forward
the storyline in any way.  It was obviously a cheap trick to be used
in the promos to get people to watch the show.

   I'll watch one more MH.  If it doesn't get any better then I'm
afraid that I'll have to survive with my recordings of last year's
shows.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 16:59:41 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@RUTGERS.EDU (G. Helms)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

R1TMARG@AKRONVM.BITNET writes:
> What is the significance of
>
>     "20 MINUTES INTO THE FUTURE"  ?

...Perhaps to point out that we're not as far off as we'd like to
think from portions of the Max Headroom environment.

Look at the atmosphere...Los Angeles has that smoky, hazy, grainy
look to it most days.  Same goes for portions of the city...the
trash and the people.  Look at the great concern for ratings that
the networks have (nuff said right there).

Granted, there are some outlandish things (like Max himself), but
then there are also a lot of similarities as well.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 00:15:04 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!cooper!joseph@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Giannuzzi)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

From: Tim Margush <R1TMARG%AKRONVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> What is the significance of
>
>     "20 MINUTES INTO THE FUTURE"  ?

I heard that the catch phrase "20 MINUTES INTO THE FUTURE" is a self
referencing joke about the show Max Headroom.  What it means is that
the show is ahead of its time.

Joe Gunoz
cmcl2!phri!cooper!joseph

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 23:01:06 GMT
From: darcic@midas.tek.com (darci chapman)
Subject: Re: Few opinions on the new TV season

moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes:
>A few brief opinions:
 [ stuff about new shows deleted ]
>OLD SHOWS: Actually, there have been some excellent returns so far.
>MAX HEADROOM, for it's first two episodes, has been EXCELLENT --
>better than last year.

Maybe this isn't fair since I haven't had the chance to watch the
show myself, BUT I have heard that it was meant to be watered-down
(and that they succeeded).  I mean, why assume that anyone
intelligent is watching TV? :-)

>The interplay between the main characters works very well, the
>satire is great,

This may be true - what do the rest of you folks think? I thought
the satire was pretty good last season, also.

>and their computer references actually ring true;

So far, I've heard just the *opposite* more often in the sf-lovers
group.

Darci Chapman
darcic@midas.UUCP
darcic@midas.TEK.COM
...tektronix!midas!darcic

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 87 19:57 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: M-M-M-M-Max

I for one have not been particularly disappointed by the new season
of Max Headroom. So far.  Last week's show was a very nice
indictment of "televangelists" which was good on a number of levels.
First of all, it didn't pander to the audience's presumed stupidity
by having a pat ending.  Even some of the first season MHs tended to
do this.  Second, there was some moderately subtle humor, such as
when Max was asked if Edison knew the lady televangelist, he replied
"Biblically you mean?". Yeah, it's a sophomoric joke, but it takes a
little intelligence to appreciate.

Third reason: The inconsistencies of computer technology in the show
are finally getting smoothed out.  We discover that Max is something
more than a mere 'program'.  The computer angle DOES need some
working on.  How could Max REALLY be 'kidnapped'?  Isn't he backed
up?  Still, it's a start.

As for whether or not MAX is 'Cyberpunk', well the last episode did
refer to death as 'going flatline'.  Hmmm!!!

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 15:39:05 GMT
From: lll-crg!ptsfa!cogent!mark@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Max Headroom - second show

Markjr_Palandri.SD@Xerox.COM writes:
>The scene in bed was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's
>back.

Here, here!  I agree.  I'll turn to a soap opera or buy Cinemax if I
just want to see people screw!

>What is the point of such a scene when It does not forward the
>storyline in any way.  It was obviously a cheap trick to be used in
>the promos to get people to watch the show.

Do any of the jokers at ABC have access to the net?  They should
read some of these articles before they proceed with anymore
episodes (assuming, of course, that they care about the viewers
opinions).

>I'll watch one more MH.  If it doesn't get any better then I'm
>afraid that I'll have to survive with my recordings of last year's
>shows.

ABC, straighten up while you can.  Don't flush a potentially good
series down the toilet.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 16:26:14 GMT
From: gmp@rayssd.ray.com (Gregory M. Paris)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
> Does anybody else feel that the characters in this show are
> ridiculously tolerent of nasty behaviour by other characters, in
> particular Lynch?

In a word, "No."  Yes, in terms of our society, it is ridiculous,
but we aren't living 20 minutes into the future.  From all the
examples Brad gives in his article, I conclude that the show is
consistent in portraying characters that are unwilling and/or unable
to hold grudges.  I think it's an aspect of the society that is
intended by the writers.

[Yes, the tele-evangelist slapped Edison, thus displaying a
long-held grudge, but that sentiment didn't last very long.  Also,
the episode to be shown this coming Friday will feature a former
Network 23 executive bent on revenge -- I can't conclude anything
about that one yet.]

I think that in the fast-paced world of Max, people don't have the
time or brainpower to figure out and remember who they should be
angry with.  Maybe they're willing to chalk other's actions up to
"personal survival" or something similar.

Greg Paris
gmp@rayssd.ray.com
{cbosgd,gatech,ihnp4,mirror,necntc,uiucdcs}!rayssd!gmp

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 23:01:07 GMT
From: postgres!grady@RUTGERS.EDU (Steven Grady)
Subject: Re: M-M-M-M-Max

DANDOM@UMass writes:
>Second, there was some moderately subtle humor, such as when Max
>was asked if Edison knew the lady televangelist, he replied
>"Biblically you mean?". Yeah, it's a sophomoric joke, but it takes
>a little intelligence to appreciate.

I agree, but when I think about this, the first thing that pops into
mind is "where are shows that require a _lot_ of intelligence (or
some intelligence and a lot of thought) to appreciate?"  The show I
have in mind is The Prisoner.. Have there been any shows to compare
to the Prisoner purely in terms of intelligence and subtlety (as
opposed to well-done characterization, emotion, humor, and other
such things which can make shows great)?

Steven

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 13:02:49 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!ewiles@RUTGERS.EDU (Edwin Wiles)
Subject: Re: M-M-M-M-Max

DANDOM@UMass (Dan Parmenter) writes:
>Third reason: The inconsistencies of computer technology in the show
>are finally getting smoothed out.  We discover that Max is
>something more than a mere 'program'.  The computer angle DOES need
>some working on.  How could Max REALLY be 'kidnapped'?  Isn't he
>backed up?  Still, it's a start.

As pointed out in that show, Max could NOT be 'kidnapped', without
his cooperation.  And once you had him, the only way to keep him is
to keep him isolated totaly from any other machines.  You'd probably
have to run him on some little power generator that wasn't hooked to
anything other than the box that he resided in.

No, Max is NOT backed up.  As pointed out in the same show, Bryce
had put in a 'copy protection' section that kept him from being
duplicated.  It also kept people from stealing copies of Max.

>As for whether or not MAX is 'Cyberpunk', well the last episode did
>refer to death as 'going flatline'.  Hmmm!!!

I might consider it to be 'proto-cyberpunk'.  Computers pervade the
society, and complex 'AI' programs exist and interact with humans on
an equal level.

But, there is little to no use of direct mind-machine interfaces on
a daily basis, no enhancement of normal human abilities by way of
implanted cybernetic systems.  (i.e. cybernetic eyes that can see in
infra-red, ultra-violet, and telescopic modes at the will of the
user.)

Whenever we see 'consensual' space dealing with the interconnection
of computers, it is always obviously comming from a video screen,
and not appearing directly in the mind of the user.

Thus I would NOT consider it to be full 'cyberpunk'.  (It'sa my two
cents!)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 15:20:14 GMT
From: uwvax!astroatc!gtaylor@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Few opinions on the new TV season

darcic@midas.UUCP (darci chapman) writes:
>Maybe this isn't fair since I haven't had the chance to watch the
>show myself, BUT I have heard that it was meant to be watered-down
>(and that they succeeded).  I mean, why assume that anyone
>intelligent is watching TV? :-)

You are probably referring to some of my recent whining about
watering down the thing. The water-down whines basically hinge on
the following basic ideas:

Tarting up Theora: The last program made a nice job of treating
Theora as a PERSON, not as cheesecake. I did rather suspect that the
networks would be rather disappointed with the possibility of a
competent female character who-rather than being sexless-simply did
not have it at the center of the way she was portrayed. That's gone
now, I guess, and I cannot say that I'm surprised. How could a good
advertiser be merely content to let the fantasy of a beautiful woman
CONTROLLING the ah "physically extensible" [to use Hubert Dreyfus'
term] male. Slobber slobber. The nonconventional way to handle
things is to avoid genders and physical bodies entirely. That's too
difficult, and avoids the usual sexual banter that keeps the masses
happy.

Current Events TV: Right. Great Scripts. "Hey, let's take a crack at
TV evangelists, and have a Vanna White character. I know, let's call
her Vanna SMITH. Wow." What I was more or less thinking of was the
idea that some of the earlier programs were more explicitly about
exploring the Dystopia that Edison/Max lives in: at the outset of
the program, the audience DOESN't know about it. They get bits and
pieces, like they do on those inventive programs like St.
Otherwhere, only they are collecting a WORLD, not a bunch of stories
about people. The easy alternative is to take some big news
[surrogate parenting. video court.  et. al.] and warp it a little as
subject rather than extrapolating from the world they create. I
won't say that's easy, but I think that I'm sad to see the program
moving toward current events instead of doing it the hard way.

Pacing: We all know that Americans cannot really sit through a whole
hour of rapid-fire mayhem, so let's break up the new season with
those old pacing bromides: the "thoughtful" section with tinkly
piano music.  The expository sections that telegraph to the LCD
audience what's coming next. Love scenes. Hey, let's make Max a
self-doubting Greek Chorus-that way he can TELL people what they're
looking at. That should keep the advertisers happy.

Looking at the above, I'm coming off like some sort of feminist
postmodern elitist. I guess I must be. I hope this makes my
objections a little clearer. I do think that the program is choosing
a more predictable course in all of the above directions, and I
imagine that the rest of the season will bear this out. Why look,
next week they're bringing back Grossberg, the villain from LAST
season. I bet they explain him in detail, too. Thank heavens Dickens
didn't have to do that.

Gregory Taylor Astronautics
5800 Cottage Grove Rd. Madison
WI 53704 608-221-9001,x232a
uwvax!astroatc!gtaylor

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 21:38:33 GMT
From: rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran)
Subject: Re: M-M-M-M-Max

DANDOM@UMass writes:
>As for whether or not MAX is 'Cyberpunk', well the last episode did
>refer to death as 'going flatline'.  Hmmm!!!

As a reference to the EKG (heart monitor), 'going flatline' has been
standard medical jargon for years.  So much for THAT as a cyberpunk
referent..... :-)

Bob Halloran
UUCP: {ATT-ACC, rutgers}!mtune!rkh
home ph: (201)251-7514
Internet: rkh@mtune.ATT.COM
USPS: 19 Culver Ct, Old Bridge NJ 08857

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Oct 87 14:47:41 EDT
From: Ross Patterson <A024012@RUTVM1>
Subject: Max Headroom and Blanks

    In conversation with a non-beleiver the other day, I discovered
that this otherwise anti-SF guy ("Escapist trash" he usually calls
it) is coming around, due entirely to M-M-Max.  Knowing that I'm in
the computer biz, he asked what the Blanks were.  I told him, but in
discussion I realized that I can't show very many examples of Blanks
and Blank Culture in SF.  There are the obvious examples ("My Name
Is Legion" by Zelazny; "Shockwave Rider" by Brunner), but not much
more.
    Can anyone help me with a few more citations?  I'm not looking
for Orwell's Non-persons, just the voluntary data-dropouts.

Thanks,
Ross Patterson
Rutgers University

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 19:06:00 GMT
From: umix!apollo!susanv@RUTGERS.EDU (Susan Verhulst)
Subject: Re: Few opinions on the new TV season

gtaylor@astroatc.UUCP writes:
>That's too difficult, and avoids the usual sexual banter that keeps
>the masses happy.

I don't think the changes made to Max are going to make the "masses"
want to watch it.  I think it's still too weird for most people.

But the changes made may lose a lot of the viewers who liked it last
year.  Who are they trying to reach, anyway?

Susan Verhulst
susanv@apollo.UUCP
{mit-erl,yale,uw-beaver}!apollo!susanv

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 23:34:24 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!kentb@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Beck)
Subject: The *NEW* Max Headroom

As I see it, the problem with the new Max is that he is no longer
about TV, he is TV.  Gone are the sly digs at the television
"culture", the insults slung at commercials, and the overdone
minicam feel of the production.  Now it is just another action show
that happens to have an AI as a character.  Sigh.

Kent Beck
Apple Computer, Inc.
20525 Mariani, MS 27E
Cupertino, CA 95014
uucp: kentb@apple.UUCP
csnet: kentb@apple.csnet
408/973-6027

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Oct 87 00:04:10 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Max Headroom personality

For some reason, I thought that the reason Max was so spaced out was
that he had been scanned from a damaged mind, _nyet_?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #431
Date:  7 Oct 87 0948-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #431
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 87 0948-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #431
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 431

Today's Topics:

        Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 86 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

Saul Jaffe (The Moderator)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 03:17:50 GMT
From: alexande@gumby.wisc.edu (Michael Alexander)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> By the time this is published, the Premier will have probably been
> shown, but I have a question.  Having just seen STIII, the Search
> For Spock, is it safe to assume that the Enterprise NCC 1701D will
> be equipped with the TransWarp Drive?  What about the NCC 1701A,
> shown at the end of STIV, the Voyage Home?  Will it have the
> TransWarp Drive?  While on the subject of the TransWarp Drive,
> does anyone have any idea how it works?  My understanding is that
> it is a combination of Transporter and Warp drive technologies,
> but I could be wrong.  Comments would be appreciated, and we thank
> you for your support.  -Keith

  One idea I have heard on the subject is comparing space to a piece
of paper.  The idea is that to conventionally travel across a sheet
of paper(space) takes too long because the large distance needed to
travel across. The Trans-Warp is like folding the paper so the ends
touch, then the distance is very minute, cross to the other end and
then unfold the paper(space)

Mike Alexander
alexande@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 87 08:59:37 EDT
From: John White <WHITE@DUVM>
Subject: Star Trek:  The Next Generation

   Those of us in the Philadelphia area got to see the premier
episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation last night (Tuesday, Sept
29 at 8:00 on channel 29, our local Fox affiliate), and let me tell
you, it was worth finking out on the other things I usually do on
Tuesday night.
   Without giving any spoilers away, I will just say that the new
series shows definite promise.  The special effects are impressive,
but the characters and story were better (as is to be hoped, of
course).  There are still a few rough edges to be smoothed out
(especially in the characters of Troi, Yar, and Worf), but I think
that the new team has all the promise of the old one.
   The only down thing about the premier was that it was broken up
every 10 minutes by commercials and by the pacing of each segment,
it was made that way.  I hope that the rest of the series isn't
going to be quite so commercial-heavy.
   I don't know if the show was moved from its Oct 3rd premier all
over the country or just in Philly., but if the rest of you havn't
seen it yet, all I can say is give it a chance - it WILL be worth
watching!

John WHITE@DUVM.Bitnet

PS - The bit part walk-on by a former crewmember was amazing, and it
certainly leaves more such appearances open (I mean, if HE'S still
alive, then so must the others be, right?).  jl

------------------------------

Date: WED SEP 30, 1987 13.31.21 EDT
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek TNG

I just woke up after seeing the first episode of Star Trek - TNG on
channel 29.  For a new show, not bad, but it isn't Star Trek.  I
enjoyed many things, but had a problem with as many.
   First off, from the very start, I had a nagging suspicion that
the identification of the Enterprise as a "Galaxy" class starship
was off.  To find out for sure, this morning I re-read, (yes,
re-read) the book Star Trek II, TWoK.  Now I know that some of the
Timescape books don't follow with the old TV show, but the movie
books usually do.  Why, then, did Kirk ask Sulu about the promotion
of a friend of his to the captaincy of a "Galaxy" class starship?
The ship was supposed to be smaller (much smaller) than the
Constitution or Enterprise class ship and have speeds in excess of
warp 15.
   Second, speed...  Why could the 1701-D only hit warp 10, and that
only by shaking itself to pieces???  In STIII, the Excelsior was
capable of speeds in excess of warp 10 with the use of it's
transwarp, so why, 78 years later, is the Enterprise incapable of
such speeds??
   Now, for some good points.  Dr. McCoy...  "Do you know how old I
am???"  I liked that.  Hope it doesn't become a permanent thing
though.
   Really enjoyed some of the special effects.  The separation of
the primary and secondary hulls was an impressive feat, even if it
was done a bit soon in the show for my tastes.  My only hope is that
the show doesn't go the way of all the others that relied on special
effects to make the show (Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers...)
Please god, develop some solid characters!!!
   Really like the captain....  Loved the hemline on the
ambassador...  One question though...  The next episode planned
seems an awful lot like an original ST episode...  Crew infested
with disease that makes them silly.  Please let there be no-one
singing "I'll take you home again Kathlene!"

Mitch

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 03:33:19 GMT
From: psc@lznv.att.com (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: no-spoiler review of "Encounter at Farpoint" (ST:TNG premier)

   "I hope most of our missions are more interesting.  Let's see
what's out there."

   That's the note that "Encounter at Farpoint", the premier episode
of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION ends on.  I'm tempted to agree.
Certainly I'll continue watching even if it remains only this good,
but it could get better.

   (We watched it on WTAF, channel 29 from Philadelphia, nearly a
week before it airs on channel 11 in New York.  And we invited the
Leepers over, so I've got an advantage over Mark: I can type while
he drives.)

   The episode itself resembled the first film.  That doesn't endear
it to me.  There were several fairly short scenes where the story
stopped to pander to the more fanatical STAR TREK zealots.  There
was one scene that was completely irrelevant to anything else that
was going on.  I didn't like it at *all*, and I'll be annoyed if, as
they could, they pull this particular stunt in future episodes.

   "Encounter at Farside" seemed to be a one hour story that was
stretched to two.  (Part of the stretch was *lots* of commercials.)
Specifically, a traditional ST-like story was expanded by
introducing an additional bad guy.  Said villain seemed very
familiar from a first generation episode (I'd spoil the story by
naming it, but you'll recognize it soon enough), but without the
character twist that made him convincing at the end.

   In the end, the captain took a WAG (wild-assed guess) on how to
solve the problem, and got lucky.  The one "threat" turned out to be
pretty passive.  (Anyone else notice that it fired on the wrong
target?)  But the crew ingores some rather important clues (which
don't lead to the mystery's solution anyway).  And the added-in
villain wasn't given any motivation.

   Some of the characters are interesting, both in themselves and in
the way that they work with other individuals.  In particular, the
first officer (who looks like a young Shatner/Kirk) has a
relationship with the android, Data, that could be as interesting as
the friendship between Kirk and Spock.  The exec also seems
interested in women in general, and one woman in particular.  The
captain may or may not become more three dimensional.  If he
doesn't, it won't be as bad as having a completely boring Kirk in
the first generation.  (Please don't rant and rave about this
outside of the startrek group.  Or better yet, just email.)  The
security officer, the blind guy, and the Klingon could get
interesting.  I don't know about the beautiful medical officer or
her son.  I'm afraid they might stay pretty flat.

   There are some nice touches.  The Federation still boldly splits
infinitives, but their "continuing" mission brings them "where no
one has gone before".  The first officer won't let the captain beam
down into a hostile situation, even if it means violating a direct
command.  (Let's see how long that lasts.)  The first time danger
triggers the Model T horns, the captain yells, "Turn off that damned
noise, and go to yellow alert!"  On the other hand, the stars
twinkle in orbit (sometimes, such as the docking sequence), and the
ships still "whoosh" in vacuum.

   Warning (spoiling no more for you than me): the second show looks
from the preview to be a remake of "The Naked Time" from the first
generation.  I worry a lot that they're using too many old ideas.

   If it wasn't SF, I can't imagine I'd bother.  But it's not just
adequate SF, it's STAR TREK, with all the good memories that brings.
I'll keep watching it.  Rate it a zero on the -4 to +4 old CFQ
("Leeper") scale, and let's see what's out there.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 22:19:38 GMT
From: lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Star Trek: The New Reruns

Abandon all hope, you who turn to this channel.

Star Trek is back.  The same show.  The same plots.  In many cases,
the same characters.  The same starship, except uglier.  The same
corny romance.  The same visual effects: stars swooshing by in a
rectangular frame, people vanishing in swirls of light, static
exterior shots of starships and planets, people running through
starship corridors, cities falling apart while the crew dodges,
people crying out in pain as energy fields hold them in stasis,
little white bombs erupting from starships and inflicting hundreds
of casualties on people that no one can see and no one knows.

The most exciting part of the pilot episode is the separation of the
saucer section from the warp module, and then their later reuniting.
These sequences are easily as fascinating as the long going-over of
the new Enterprise in the first movie.  Just imagine the power of
vision needed to conceive of this scene: a saucer actually *sliding*
*apart* *from* *something* *else*!  And then even more awesomely,
coming back together again!  My eyes were glued to the scenes for
the whole five minutes!  Hang it up, Transformers!

Equally stunning was the originality of the plot.  A super-powerful
alien in foppish humanoid form captures the Enterprise and forcibly
captures the bridge crew to put them on trial for humanity's
savagery.  Now, this is totally different from the other foppish
super-powerful humanoid aliens they've encountered.  It just is.
And it isn't like all the other times they were forced into
trial-by-adventure to prove some third-grade metaphysics or other.
Don't ask me how it's different, it just is.  If you like this new
series, you will often be forced to use the previous sentence, so
I'm just prepping you.

I'll shift out of sarcasm mode now; this series is so bad that only
a direct attack can even approximate to truth.

After a long commercial break has given you time to clean up from
your reaction to the romantic denouement, in which ultra-powerful
incomprehensible aliens are reunited and grow hands to hold in space
as they drift off into the galaxy to the strains of violins (and
that's totally different from the end of the first movie, by the
way), the worst new convention of TV series appears: a preview of
the next episode.  It figures that the only way in which Star Trek
would learn from Hill Street Blues would be Hill Street's biggest
failing.

The preview shows yet another new rerun: beaming down to a
mysterious planet, the Enterprise finds the dead bodies of a number
of drunken revelers.  Turns out there's this disease that makes
peope act drunk, which the crew of the Enterprise then contracts.
They lose all their inhibitions and go prancing through the
corridors, while one drunk crew member takes over the ship and holds
them all hostage.  I can't tell you how this is different from "The
Naked Time" in the first series; it just is.

There is one good thing about the series.  Some of the casting
decisions are okay.  The captain is an interesting character, who
often rises above his lines.  The android is interestingly played,
though obviously in straight imitation of the synthetic people in
Alien and Aliens.  The Klingon seems good, though they haven't given
him enough play, and I also like Geraldine Ferraro or whoever that
is with the two-tone hairdo.  The telepath in the mini-skirt has to
go, though.  She's not very good, at least in the part she's given,
and most of her bits are replays of the worst parts of Vulcan
mind-melding ("... great ... pain ... loneliness ... sorrow ...")
alternated with sluttish one-liners when she's not groping someone'
brains.  I find her obvious expression of nostalgia for the days
when chicks were chicks and no man ever did the dishes rather
offensive; and it is equally offensive, though racist rather than
sexist, that the only two representatives of alien races are both
half-human crossbreeds.  (And by the way, that is different from
Spock being half human.  It just is.)

I have been criticized before for saying anything against the Great
One, Gene Roddenberry, but his grubby little paw-prints are all over
this, just as they were in the first movie.  Any of the other movies
is better than the first; it seems more than a coincidence that
Roddenberry had little say in the later movies, but great say in the
first.  It also seems more than a coincidence that he has great
control over this series, which made many of the unique mistakes of
the first movie, while falling far short of the worst later movie,
"The Search for Spock".

Just as the plot of the first movie was a reply of a couple of
earlier episodes, so is this.  A super-powerful alien forces the
bridge crew to stand trial-by-adventure for humanity's crimes.  Does
anyone remember the ostensible point of the similar trial in the
Roddenberry-written episode with Abraham Lincoln?  Something like,
is there really a difference between good and evil, right?  This
trial is almost as memorable.

The common mistakes between the first movie and this pilot:
self-plagiarism; terrible direction and staging, with almost every
scene unconvincing and hard to watch; third-grade metaphysics;
incredibly corny romance (I like good romance, by the way, the only
requirement being authentic human emotions); visionary concepts that
couldn't excite a mongoloid; self-indulgent use of special effects
in ways that contribute nothing to the story and add no new shots to
Star Trek's visual repertoire, despite the recent advances in the
state of the art; and so on.

In short, these new reruns are if anything less fun than the old
ones, and about on a par with the first movie.  There is nothing new
in either presentation or vision.  Don't miss any important dates to
catch them, at least until after the rumors come true and the show
is put in more competent hands.  Don't be too hopeful about the
latter prospect, either; remember what happened last time.  For all
his many and extreme failings, Roddenberry differs from most
producers in that he believes (falsely) that he has some creative
vision, and this false belief makes the writers, actors and
directors try harder; most producers are simply cynical
junk-generators.  It could be a lot better, with its cast and
budget, but it probably won't be.

Tim Maroney,
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 87 09:08 EDT
From: <LEE_JES%CTSTATEU.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Episode 2 of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION

Hey, is it just me, or does the preview of episode 2 of ST:TNG look
a *LOT* like the episode "The Naked Time" from the "original" STAR
TREK?

Jeffrey S. Lee
Connecticut State University
Lee_JeS@CtStateU      (BITNET)
(203) 485-9249 (AT&T Net)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #432
Date:  7 Oct 87 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #432
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 87 1002-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #432
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 432

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Definition of SF &
                                 A Correction &
                                 Time Dilation (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 19:08:14 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Definition of SF

I think the problem with defining Science Fiction comes from taking
a purely literary approach.  I think it's more useful to think of
Science Fiction *people*.  They are people who like to read and
write fiction that speculates about the possiblities implicit in the
Sciences, possibilities that go beyond everyday life.  SF is often
accused of being escapist fantasy (as bad SF usually is) because
the mainstream of society doesn't understand the flexibility of
thinking that SF requires.

"Mainstream" authors often write fiction that takes an SF form (The
Handmaid's Tale by Atwood, Messiah by Vidal, Floating World by
iferget), but such work is only SF in a technical sense (at best)
because it isn't written for SF people.

In another genre, horror, SF conventions are often used (see King's
The Stand), but again it's a matter of audience -- the aim is not to
speculate but to terrify.  King is a case in point.  He's very good
with the ideas of SF, but you can't call The Stand SF because the
technical details are just to make the novel convincing.  An SF
reader might enjoy the way King lays out his scenery, but is likely
to be bored by his main story.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 14:31:00 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Correction to previous posting re Galaxy & Bode'

I've been told that the con in St. Louis at which I saw the Bode'
exhibit was NOT an "Archon", which didn't begin until '77, but the
'69 Worldcon. That's right. I had gotten the local cons mixed up in
my memory with that Worldcon and should have looked it up (I still
have the program book) before posting and giving the wrong data. My
apologies...

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 20:15:47 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

> ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer)
> The fact is, this time dilation effect doesn't really exist!
> Einstein originally thought it was a result of his general theory
> of relativity. Later he saw that it didn't fit in, so he tried to
> make it fit by saying it was the acceleration, not the velocity
> achieved, that dilated the time.  Finally, he saw that he was just
> plain mistaken, and that time dilation didn't make sense, but by
> then it had caught on with the masses so much it seems people
> still believe it is possible today.

Quite wrong.  It might be interesting to know where this quaint idea
came from, but it doesn't really matter.  The point is that time
dilation is a consequence of rather simple special relativity
considerations, not general relativity.  It has to do with relative
velocity *and* acceleration.  Einstein never "saw that he was
mistaken", since he wasn't mistaken.  Time dilation *does* make
sense.  And finally, far from having "caught on" with "the masses",
most people are scarcely aware of the effect at all, and think it a
fairy tale if they are.

> The problem is, what reference frame are you using?

Any intertial reference frame will do.

> In the open vastness of the universe, "velocity" is meaningless
> except as considered as relative to the motions of all the rest of
> the matter in the universe.

And so it is with "time" as well.

> It makes no sense whatsoever to choose the Earth as some kind of
> priviledged reference frame that is moving at "0" so that as your
> spaceship accelerates you could claim that now it is moving
> "faster" than all those unlucky people who are aging away at the
> blink of an eye down on Earth's surface.

Quite correct, because of the fuzzy nature of "simultaneous" under
special relativity.  Nevertheless, a traveler will have aged less
after a near-light-speed trip than will a stay-at-home.

> What time dilation really IS: People in 2 different reference
> frames that are accelerating AWAY from each other LOOK (to the
> people in the OTHER frame) as if they are aging slower. When the
> people in reference frame A look out their proverbial porthole at
> the clock on the dashboard of reference frame B's spaceship
> (obviously with a very powerful telescope :-), they SEE B's clock
> moving more slowly than A's own. If people in B look at A's clock,
> the people in B will ASLO see the other's (A's) clock moving
> slower than their own.

Nope.  The whole point is that the "other guy is slower" effect is
what results *after* correcting for the lightspeed delay and
counting ticks on the other clock relative to "simultaneous" ticks
on the local clock.

> I apologize for my longwindedness, but it just bothers the heck
> out of me that even lots of SCIENTISTS (e.g. Asimov) use this
> "effect" in fiction (and in at least one case and I am sure many
> more, Asimov has described it in *factual* books) without
> realizing that it makes no sense whatsoever.

Not that Asimov is a paragon: he has made many a mistake in
describing relativistic effects.  The most outrageous one being when
he asserted that the "twin paradox" needed general relativity to
resolve (it doesn't).  But nevertheless, "time dilation" makes good
sense, and it has been measured in particles that are accelerated to
near-lightspeed, and it could be used to make a many-lightyear trip
last a much shorter subjective time for the travelers.

I'll recommend "Relativity: the special and general theory" by
Albert Einstein.  Not so much because it is easiest to understand
(though it is fairly easy), nor because it is terribly modern
("Gravity" by Wheeler and mumble is much more up-to-date), but
because it is Einstein in his own words in a collection of essays on
the subject, and it rather directly shows where Kevin is wrong about
"what Einstein said".

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 03:59:08 GMT
From: hplabs!hp-sdd!crash!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

mac@idacrd.UUCP (Bob McGwier) writes:
> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) says:
>> In special relativity, acceleration *is* an absolute, as Kenn
>> said.  However, in general relativity, accelerated frames of
>> reference are seen as equally relative.  It is just as valid to
>> say that the spaceship is standing still, while the Earth
>> accelerates away from it.  However, not only the Earth, but the
>> entire universe, has to be considered as accelerated if one takes
>> the view that the spaceship is standing still;
>
>I think this is not quite right.  I do not believe that a spaceship
>accelerated away from the earth and the earth accelerating away
>from the spacecraft are "co-equal".  In one I WILL FEEL "GRAVITY"
>as the ship accelerates and in the other I will not.  If I have
>missed the point I apologize.

You will feel gravity in either frame.  Gravity and acceleration
both produce the same effect.  When the spaceship is held to be
still and the universe to move in relationship to it, the universe
exerts a gravitational force on the ship and its occupants,
indistinguishable from the acceleration.

Now, why don't you boys run on out and buy a good book that explains
all this instead of arguing "it ain't so"?  If there was a hole so
big in this theory that you, without studying it at all, could find
it, don't you think someone else would have already?  As far as
anyone has been able to test it, it works.  What more do you want?

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!amos,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
sdeggo!dave@amos.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 16:52:40 GMT
From: princeton!idacrd!mac@RUTGERS.EDU (Bob McGwier)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) says:
> Kenn's message was good, as usual; but also incomplete.  It
> discussed time dilation only from a special relativistic
> perspective, and ignored the theory of general relativity.  The
> original poster had a valid point about the preferred frame of
> reference of Earth.
>
> In special relativity, acceleration *is* an absolute, as Kenn
> said.  However, in general relativity, accelerated frames of
> reference are seen as equally relative.  It is just as valid to
> say that the spaceship is standing still, while the Earth
> accelerates away from it.
>
> However, not only the Earth, but the entire universe, has to be
> considered as accelerated if one takes the view that the spaceship
> is standing still

I think this is not quite right.  I do not believe that a spaceship
accelerated away from the earth and the earth accelerating away from
the spacecraft are "co-equal".  In one I WILL FEEL "GRAVITY" as the
ship accelerates and in the other I will not.  If I have missed the
point I apologize.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 17:56:15 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

   Time dilation does exist - there is not just theory, but
experimental evidence.  Atomic clocks have been carried on-board
orbital craft - when compared to their "twins" back on earth they
were slow; by exactly the amount theory predicted.

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
Data Management Group, San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 18:55:05 GMT
From: njd@ihlpm.att.com (DiMasi)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) writes:
> Time dilation does exist - there is not just theory, but
> experimental evidence.  Atomic clocks have been carried on-board
> orbital craft - when compared to their "twins" back on earth they
> were slow; by exactly the amount theory predicted.

I'm confused by this.  I had the impression that gravity slows down
time, so that the clocks in orbit would run *faster* than those on
the surface.  (Supposedly, orbiting a black hole would slow down
time just as travelling "near" the speed of light.  The effect is
much smaller with an "ordinary" body such as the Earth, hence the
need to use atomic clocks to measure it[?].)

Nick DiMasi
ihnp4!ihlpm!njd

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 15:05:26 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ethan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

njd@ihlpm.ATT.COM (DiMasi) writes:
> jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) writes:
>>      Time dilation does exist - there is not just theory, but
>> experimental evidence.  Atomic clocks have been carried on-board
>> orbital craft - when compared to their "twins" back on earth they
>> were slow; by exactly the amount theory predicted.
>I'm confused by this.  I had the impression that gravity slows down
>time, so that the clocks in orbit would run *faster* than those on
>the surface.

Perhaps this belongs in sci.physics, but I'll continue in this group
for now.  The relative effects of gravity and SR can be estimated by
comparing the quantities (v/c)^2 (for SR) and (escape v/c)^2 (for
GR).  This last number must also be corrected by the fraction of the
potential well that you have moved from, ie a spacecraft in Earth
orbit is feeling very much the same gravity as a person on the
surface of the Earth.  Nevertheless, it should be clear that both
effects will be important for a high orbit.  It is my impression
that both effects have been measured.

I might also point out that a much more dramatic vindication of SR
is given by the change in the decay time of unstable particles as
they are accelerated to high speeds.  Of course, other people have
already pointed out that the dynamics of particles in particle
accelerators can *only* be understood in terms of SR, but that
doesn't exactly speak to the question of time dilation.

The amount of nonsense that has been written about Relativity, by
its detractors and defenders, is exceeded only by popular literature
on QM.

Ethan Vishniac

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 20:16:24 GMT
From: brun@husc4.harvard.edu (todd brun)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

mac@idacrd.UUCP (Bob McGwier) writes
>> However, in general relativity, accelerated frames of reference
>> are seen as equally relative.  It is just as valid to say that
>> the spaceship is standing still, while the Earth accelerates away
>> from it.
>>
>> However, not only the Earth, but the entire universe, has to be
>> considered as accelerated if one takes the view that the
>> spaceship is standing still;
>
> I think this is not quite right.  I do not believe that a
> spaceship accelerated away from the earth and the earth
> accelerating away from the spececraft are "co-equal".  In one I
> WILL FEEL "GRAVITY" as the ship accelerates and in the other I
> will not.  If I have missed the point I apologize.

Actually, under General Relativity you would "FEEL" gravity in the
case of the universe accelerating as well as the ship accelerating.
This is part of the principle of Equivalence, which some have
interpreted to mean that gravity and acceleration are
indistinquishable (actually, you can usually tell them apart by
local tidal effects, unless you are a point particle).

A valid question remains, does it make any sense to talk about the
whole Universe accelerating?  According to Mach's Principle, which
is more a philosophical point of view than a testable theory, motion
makes no sense except against the background of a stationary
universe.  However, rather than having the whole universe
accelerate, one could put one's ship in a large, massive shell and
accelerate the shell.  In that case, you would "FEEL" gravity just
as if you were accelerating forward (though more weakly than if the
shell were the whole universe).  That is, until you ran into the
shell (smile).

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 21:19:09 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation



I wrote :
>       Time dilation does exist - there is not just theory, but
> experimental evidence.  Atomic clocks have been carried on-board
> orbital craft - when compared to their "twins" back on earth they
> were slow; by exactly the amount theory predicted.

(Nick DiMasi) writes:
> I'm confused by this.  I had the impression that gravity slows
> down time, so that the clocks in orbit would run *faster* than
> those on the surface.

Time dilation is also a function of velocity vs. c; as you approach
c your time "slows down".  Orbital vehicles are not subjected to a
different gravity effect (they're not far enough away to make any
substantive difference) but they are TRUCKING (SanDiegonese for
moving very rapidly).  It is their relatively high velocity relative
to c that makes the difference noticeable.

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
Data Management Group, San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 14:52:25 GMT
From: ll-xn!culdev1!drw@RUTGERS.EDU (Dale Worley)
Subject: Time-Dilation

brun@husc4.HARVARD.EDU (todd brun) writes:
> A valid question remains, does it make any sense to talk about the
> whole Universe accelerating?  According to Mach's Principle, which
> is more a philosophical point of view than a testable theory,
> motion makes no sense except against the background of a
> stationary universe.

I was reading some book that discussed Mach's principle, and it
noted that GR does *not* satisfy Mach's principle.  In particular,
spinning the entire universe around you produces different
"centrifugal forces" than spinning you around with the universe
stationary.  (But, under GR, you do get some effects from the
universe spinning around you, as opposed to Newtonian physics, where
you don't.)

Dale Worley
Cullinet Software
ARPA: culdev1!drw@eddie.mit.edu
UUCP: ...!seismo!harvard!mit-eddie!culdev1!drw

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #433
Date:  7 Oct 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #433
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Oct 87 1021-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #433
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 7 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 433

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Niven (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Sep 87 21:50:56 GMT
From: gatech!codas!usfvax2!pdn!jc3b21!larry@RUTGERS.EDU (Lawrence F.
From: Strickland)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) says:
> Louis Wu is Niven's Hero of the Ringworld Novels as well as some
> of his other short stories.  He's also related to that other
> famous space explorer, Beowulf Shaeffer.  I think that Shaeffer is
> Wu's father, but I can't remember for sure.  I expect that there
> will be a lot of replies to this one.

Beowulf Shaeffer was actually Louis Wu's foster father (I guess?).
Anyway, Beowulf met a girl named Sharrol (sp?) on earth while
working for Carlos Wu, Louis Wu's biological father.  They fell in
love and wanted to have children, but Beowulf was a (insert planet
here) (very tall and albino) and, hence, was not able to father a
child on earth.  At the same time, Sharrol was a ground- gripper and
could not bear to leave earth (got physically sick I believe).

They decided to have Carlos Wu (a genius and allowed to have as many
children as he wanted) father their child.  Carlos was a bit queasy
about this, so Beowulf left for another planet until the child was
born (but that is another story).

So both Beowulf Shaeffer and Carlos Wu are 'fathers' to Louis Wu.
As far as the travel thing is concerned, Louis actually loves to
travel.  From time-to- time he gets tired of being around people and
travels solo across the universe of Known Space.

Lawrence F. Strickland
St. Petersburg Junior College
P.O. Box 13489
St. Petersburg, FL 33733
...gatech!codas!usfvax2!jc3b21!larry
Phone: +1 813 341 4705

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 19:25:24 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

I only remember seeing only one Louis Wu short story, "There Is a
Tide", which is the umpteem'th Niven story with the "Venus Air"
premise.  Other than that, I think Louis Wu only appeared in the
Ringworld Novels.  I do *not* remember any aversion to vehicles.

Wu was a user of boosterspice, a ragweed derivative that conferred
freedom from aging on the user as long as he could afford it.  (I
suspect its origens are described in an unpublished story.)  I find
the stories about booster- spice fascinating and frustrating.
Fascinating, because they talked about the effects of very long life
and the hassles that result when people suddenly need money for
their next dose.  Frustrating, because there's nothing about
boosterspice's effects on society in general.  Obviously most people
can't afford boosterspice: how do they act toward people rich enough
to *buy* immortality?  Sometimes I think that Niven thinks that
Beverly Hills is the whole world.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 19:58:34 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Niven novels

>In _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_, we learn of an explosion
>at the galactic core that should reach the vicinity of Sol and
>Earth in 20,000 years, and should make Earth uninhabitable.  But in
>_A_World_Out_of_Time_, J. B. Corbell undergoes relativistic time
>dilation that puts him 3,000,000 years into the future, and we
>learn that Earth has been continuously inhabited all that time.
>
>My question is, are those stories supposed to be in the same
>"universe"?  And if they are, has Niven ever reconciled the
>apparent contradiction?

WOOT is not a KS story.  The contradiction you mention isn't the
only one.  WOOT has The State being founded sometime in the 21st
century (I think) as a response to all the World Crises.  In the
21st century KS stories (see World of Ptavvs and Protector), there's
no world state, but world peace is enforced by the UN which has
somehow acquired teeth.  Perhaps these stories were written before
he became a Republican.

Niven has actually invented several universes.  Some of his early
stories resemble KS (Blind Spots in FTL drives for example), but
don't fit in.  I suspect that one reason Niven doesn't write man KS
stories is that he no longer buys all the premises he invented for
that universe.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 20:05:39 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Niven novels

Chris Jarocha-Ernst writes:
>No, they are not.  As I heard it, Niven had essentially written
>himself into a dramatic corner in "Known Space" (the luck genes),
>so he switched to the universe of "the State" in AWOOT (and its
>precessor short stories).

The "Luck Genes" are a dumb idea, but I fail to see how he's written
himself into a corner.  Anyway, the KS stories were not written in
chronological order, so there's nothing to prevent Niven from
writing pre-Ringworld stories.  Except that his ideas have clearly
outgrown the KS universe.

>Is THE INTEGRAL TREES part of the universe of "the State", or is it
>yet another one?

Doesn't IT mention The State by name?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Sep 87 21:26:33 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Known Space vs The State

The third SF universe of Larry Niven, of the Draco Tavern series, is
the one where chirpsithra had discovered the Earth and had inducted
it into the inter-stellar community.  There is no link between this
universe and either the State or the Known Space universes, and the
differences between this latest series and the earlier two are much
more pronounced.  (In fact, if Niven REALLY wanted to, he could tie
the State and the Known Space together.  They DO share the same
roots.  State is the developement of the Earth if the Outsiders had
never visisted Sol and human ram-ships had managed to miss Kzinti).

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 17:48:43 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau@RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Goudreau)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
>Louis Wu is Niven's Hero of the Ringworld Novels as well as some of
>his other short stories.  He's also related to that other famous
>space explorer, Beowulf Shaeffer.  I think that Shaeffer is Wu's
>father, but I can't remember for sure.  I expect that there will be
>a lot of replies to this one.

I was also under the impression that Louis Wu was Beowulf Shaeffer's
step-son.  In (I believe) _On_the_Borderland_of_Sol_, there is some
discussion of Carlos Wu having fathered Shaeffer's son Louis.  The
chronology certainly fits; the Ringworld adventures take place two
centuries after the Shaeffer episodes.

I have another question for sf-lovers.  If Louis Wu's step-father
was the original pilot of the _Long_Shot_ (the hyperdrive II ship of
_At_the_Core_ and _Ringworld_), then how come Louis

a) did not know about this already from his dad, or
b) was not told about it by Nessus?

It seems a bit of a coincidence that Nessus just happened to pick
the son of the original pilot of the _Long_Shot_ for the Ringworld
mission.  It seems even stranger that this relationship had no
bearing on any of the Known Space stories; why introduce it then?
Perhaps Niven succumbed (albeit mildly) to "Asimov's Disease" of
constant interplot connections.

Bob Goudreau
Data General Corp.
62 Alexander Drive
Research Triangle Park, NC  27709
(919) 248-6231
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 18:29:19 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com (druid)
Subject: Re: Niven novels

Read Niven's Tales of Known Space
and if you can get your hands on it "Shape of Space"

_A_World_Out_of_Time_ is one of Larry's sideline novels.

_Ringworld_ and _Ringworld_Engineers_ (and all his best) are along a
different time line.

Like wise, The Drago Tavern Series, and the Convergent Series are
along a totally different timeline all together.

Guess this is some help ...

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 22:43:12 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

phil@rice.edu writes:
> "Peersa for the State.  Peersa for the State."
>
> _A_World_out_of_Time_ is not part of the "Known Space" series.  So
> the answer to your question, "are those stories supposed to be in
> the same universe?" is "no".
>
> AWooT is in the same universe as The Integral Trees.  Although I
> haven't heard an official name given to the universe, I tend to
> think of it as "the State" series.  The first part of that book
> was originally published as a short story, whose name,
> unfortunately, eludes me at the moment (I'm at school and my SF
> collection is at home).

Names of related stories that come to mind (for me, if nobody else)
are "Rammer" and "The Flight of the Horse".  I think that the latter
is a lengthened version of the former.  (My books aren't here
either.)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 20:29:38 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

Well, I blew the date.  I looked in "Tales of Known Space" and found
out that I was off by 600 years.  Sigh.  Ringworld == 2830, Beowulf
Shaeffer == 2600's.

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
(415) 857-6236

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 23:11:26 GMT
From: rmr@chefchu.sgi.com (Robert Reimann)
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
> phil@rice.edu writes:
>> AWooT is in the same universe as The Integral Trees.  Although I
>> haven't heard an official name given to the universe, I tend to
>> think of it as "the State" series.  The first part of that book
>> was originally published as a short story, whose name,
>> unfortunately, eludes me at the moment (I'm at school and my SF
>> collection is at home).
>
> Names of related stories that come to mind (for me, if nobody
> else) are "Rammer" and "The Flight of the Horse".  I think that
> the latter is a lengthened version of the former.  (My books
> aren't here either.)

Actually "Rammer" was a short story (I don't remember the name of
the collection it was in) that eventually became the first chapter
or so of AWOOT (AWOOT without the "Rammer" chapter originally
appeared in Galaxy Magazine as "Children of the State").

"Flight of the Horse" was a collection of stories representing yet
another universe; the polluted future of the time-traveller Svetz.
Svetz was in charge of recovering animals from the past, to populate
the zoo of a genetically feebleminded (inbred) dictator.
Apparently, only humans and dogs (and presumably rats and
cockroaches) were able to adapt to the polluted environment.  Dates
were measured in P.A.  (Post Atomic), as I recall.  The two most
amusing things about these stories were:

1.  Svetz couldn't breath the air of the past because it didn't
    contain enough CO2 to activate the breathing center in his brain,
    and was horrified because it had no smell.

2.  The time machine he had kept drifting into alternate pasts, which
    contained fantasy creatures (the cage holding an immense, fire
    breathing lizard was labelled "gila monster").

Robert Reimann
...sun!sgi!olympus!rmr
rmr@olympus.sgi.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 87 15:07 PDT
From: Frank Mayhar <Frank-Mayhar%LADC@BCO-MULTICS.ARPA>
Cc: kfl@ai.ai.mit.EDU
Subject: Re:Niven.

kfl@ai.ai.mit.edu (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
>Also, there are TWO versions of known space, depending on whether
>you accept his _Down in Flames_ (never published, but available
>from SF-Lovers) as real.  If you do, the core explosion never
>really happened.

Oh but it did!  If you remember, once the dust settles the
protectors send a ship to the core, and...it's exploding!  (I
thought at the time that that gave a nice twist to the ending.)

And, actually, there is only one version of known space: _Down in
Flames_ ties right in to the rest, with no problems (at least, that
I can see).  I had hoped that Niven would eventually write it.  No
such luck...

Frank Mayhar
Frank-Mayhar%ladc@bco-multics.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 17:50:02 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Integral Trees and Smoke Rings

Haven't read Smoke Rings yet -- too cheap to buy the hardback.  But
I find the argument over whether it's better than Integral Trees
amusing.  Niven says it all started as one book, but by the time he
fleshed out the story, it was so long he thought it better to split
it down the middle.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 17:47:47 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: RE: Niven's World out of Time

>Actually "Rammer" was a short story (I dont remember the name of
>the collection it was in) that eventually became the first chapter
>or so of AWOOT (AWOOT without the "Rammer" chapter originally
>appeared in Galaxy Magazine as "Children of the State").

It's worth mentioning that "Rammer" was changed significantly when
it became the first chapter in AWooT.

One thing that's always bothered me about AWooT.  If the state can
build computers capable of "running" complete human personalities,
why use (potentially disloyal) corpsicles for ramship pilots?  If
Don Juan had been equipped with robots controlled by the computer,
there would have been no need for any human cargo at all.  Oh well,
computers have always been Niven's weak point.

>"Flight of the Horse" was a collection of stories representing yet
>another universe; the polluted future of the time-traveller Svetz.
>    The time machine he had kept drifting into alternate pasts,
>    which contained fantasy creatures (the cage holding an immense,
>    fire breathing lizard was labelled "gila monster").

You've misinterpreted a typically Nivenesque joke.  (I think he
explains the joke in FotH, which I'm paraphrasing from memory.)
Niven adheres to the theory that time travel is simply and purely
impossible.  But he still wanted to write TT stories!  So he gets
around the paradoxes involved in traveling into the past by playing
a joke on his own characters.  They think that they are travelling
into the real past.  In fact, they are travelling into the
*mythical* past, populated by dragons and unicorns and such.  The
time travellers miss most of the discrepancies, because most of
their records of the preatomic era have been lost.  When they *do*
discover a discrepancy (as when Svetz brings back a "horse" with a
horn), they go into Cover Your Ass mode and alter their records to
suit.  Thus the people of the future think that *all horses had
horns.
  This is the series of stories that hooked me on Niven.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 19:51:28 GMT
From: ames!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Perkins)
Subject: "Rammer" -> "A World Out of Time" (Was Re: niven)

#KPBULL@WMMVS.BITNET writes:
> "There is a story in which someone ...  is revived in the body of
> a corpsicle ... and is trained to pilot a ramship.  I seem to
> remember that it was his "Duty to the State" or something really
> close to that."
>
> That story was like a shortened version of _A World Out of Time_,
> if my memory serves me.  The story is almost identical the the
> first part ...

The novella "Rammer" came first.  It, and another novella which was
its sequel, were combined to make the novel "A World Out of Time".

It wasn't clear that the poster (KPBULL) was looking for the title,
but that's what I'm guessing.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,ames}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #434
Date:  8 Oct 87 0816-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #434
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 87 0816-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #434
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 434

Today's Topics:

        Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 12:40:55 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: ST:TNG "Encounter at Farpoint"

                   STAR TREK: THE NEW GENERATION
                      "Encounter at Farpoint"
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     STAR TREK was a television show that was popular in syndication
and the basis for four films so far.  If this is news to you,
welcome to the English-speaking world.  With commercial television
desperately trying to compete with cable, it was only a matter of
time before the series was resurrected in some form.  The only thing
that stood in the way, probably, was that the stakes were not high
enough for sufficient funds to be made available to do the
television series decently.  Special effects would probably be much
of what the audience would want and the effects of the 1960s would
look shabby and cheap in the 1980s.  The demand finally justified
the huge per-episode cost and production was started.  Now all this
has little to do with plot, characterization, or other story values.
Tradition says these are of secondary import, but clearly someone
was watching to make sure the series did not become another
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA.

     The first difference that is apparent in the new series is that
the traditional Alexander Courage score is present but has been
pushed aside by Jerry Goldsmith's triumphant score from STAR TREK:
THE MOTION PICTURE.  Both scores are good but Goldsmith's is the
better.  The crew composition had been rearranged in major ways--not
surprising since the new series takes place almost a century later.
There is an interesting recombination of humans, modified humans,
aliens, and an android.  A Vulcan (or perhaps a Romulan) is
conspicuous in the background, but he appears to be just a
phaser-carrier.  Captain Jean-Luc Picard (played by Patrick Stewart,
who also played Paul's teacher in DUNE) is intelligent, logical, and
cold- blooded, but definitely human.  He could easily be as
interesting as any character in the series so far.  His
second-in-command, Commander Ryker (played by Jonathan Frakes) is
the one in the James Kirk mold.  There are a number of other
characters, adding loose plot-ends to be tied up in later programs.

     The effects, including contributions by Industrial Light and
Magic, are much more in the tradition of the films than of the
television series.  Some of the effects are obviously computer-aided
video, but for the most part they are quite convincing.  The ship,
which looks like a futurized version of the old Enterprises, is
supposedly much larger and houses entire families.  The uniforms
have once again been redesigned and are smart- looking and more
tight-fitting than ever.  The transporter now looks like it is
sprinkling fairy dust.

     The "Star Trek" universe, however, will remain recognizable to
viewers of the new series.  Many of the same sound effects are used.
The plot, at least of the first episode ("Encounter at Farpoint"),
is a recombination of plot elements from episodes of the previous
series.  An unfortunate touch is a cameo of a super-annuated
character of the first series.  The makeup is about the worst visual
effect of the episode.

     Overall verdict on the series?  It is way too early to tell.
As a film, I would rate "Encounter at Farpoint" a +1 on the -4 to +4
scale.  In fact, that was just about what I expected to rate it, but
it was a higher +1 than I expected.  It is the best science fiction
television series since the old STAR TREK died.  (A possible
exception is THE SURVIVORS, a very intelligent British series that
was rebroadcast on Canadian television.)  Sure, I'll keep watching.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 87 16:48:12 EDT
From: dml@NADC.ARPA (D. Loewenstern)
Subject: ST:TNG, reaction to pilot

  I assume practically everyone in the US has seen ST:TNG.  *SPOILER
WARNING* if you have not.

  Certainly ST:TNG had great special effects, and the quality of the
acting was far better than the original Star Trek.  I especially
like the revised and updated universe.  In ST, you usually got the
feeling that the technological growth rate of the Federation had
slowed to a crawl.  In ST:TNG, you not only see technological
improvement over ST (a continuation of the trend seen in the
movies), but even the characters themselves have difficulty
adjusting to the rapid change in technology.  I think that the
Federation should have a robust society, with constant improvement
in technology and art.  I would like to see new things added from
time to time in the series -- changes in fashion, improved sensors,
better ergonomics for the chairs, software updates for the computers
(how about having the computer address each person in his/her own
preferred style?  I can see the Klingon preferring a "servile"
computer, with others preferring "friendly" or "authorative"
styles).

  What didn't I like? -- the plot.  We had seen the judgemental
alien in ST several times.  Q (Cue? Queue?) was particularly
irritating, since he was nearly as petulant as Trelane (sp?), but
was shown as having some authority among his race (for example, he
seemed to command others of his race in the "trial" scene).  Q's
deliberate provoking, his hiding of necessary information, and so
forth, remind me not so much of the Organians as of Mr.  Myxlplk (I
know the spelling isn't right) from Superman.  If Q was even merely
representative of his race, the Federation should consider
mobilizing against that race -- since a race which is so clearly
socially inferior but technologically superior to humans has got to
be more of a danger than the Klingons used to be.  If Q was really
supposed to be a member of a socially superior culture, then Q
himself must be an example of that culture's sociopath community,
and that culture should have the courtesy to keep such characters
out of the hair of the Federation.  In the end, Q threatens to come
back Capt. Picard and taunt him a second time.  I truly hope not --
he isn't interesting, even as comic relief.

  I also did not like the handling of the mystery of the giant
jellyfish.  The idea of a giant, starfaring race is new to ST, I
think, and could have made for an exciting script.  But the mystery
of the identities of the second giant jellyfish and the "catacombs"
on the planetary surface, was so heavily foreshadowed that by the
climax of the show, I was just relieved that the writers had finally
spelled out what the audience had figured out fifteen minutes
beforehand.

  But worst of all -- scenes from next week.  Why are we seeing a
repeat of "Amok Time"?  Especially when we haven't seen the
characters enough to be shocked by the sudden change in behavior?!
Why does the obnoxious teenager HAVE to take control of the ship?
Why are Roddenberry and friends trying to turn ST:TNG into a sitcom?

Dave Loewenstern
dml@nadc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 17:08:04 GMT
From: artecon.artecon!macbeth@RUTGERS.EDU (Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Abandon all hope, you who turn to this channel.
>Star Trek is back.  The same show.  The same plots.  In many cases,
>the same characters.  The same starship, except uglier.  The same
>corny romance.  The same visual effects: stars swooshing by in a
>rectangular frame, people vanishing in swirls of light, static
>exterior shots of starships and planets, people running through
>starship corridors, cities falling apart while the crew dodges,
>people crying out in pain as energy fields hold them in stasis,
>little white bombs erupting from starships and inflicting hundreds
>of casualties on people that no one can see and no one knows.

An Open Letter

Tim -

Don't watch this show. It obviously causes you great pain to do so.
Please, just change the channel. I do not consider Gene Roddenberry
possessed of genius, but neither is he utterly talentless. You
overstate the negative aspects of the premiere (the first episode,
for Pete's sake) and effectively ignore both the actual and
potential worth of the series.

The primary purpose of criticism is to instruct. Simply saying "It
all sucks canal water" may make you feel better, but it does nothing
useful.  Tell us what you would do to make the show work.

Unless, of course, you prefer to just stand around with a
flamethrower, torching anything which doesn't measure up to some
ill-defined standard. If so, you do yourself and us a grave
disservice.

Regards,

David Macy-Beckwith
Artecon, Inc.
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!hp-sdd!artecon!macbeth

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 20:51:32 GMT
From: vogl@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Wynecosha Stevens)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  The Next Generation

Our Science Fiction Club all got together and watched ST : TNG.  Our
major consensus: " We're glad that they aren't beaming the Captain
down anymore, but they can beam the Half-Betazoid wherever they
please.  Like, to the surface of a Neutron Star.  Or maybe just deep
space.  If she's lucky."

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 00:43:23 GMT
From: me3201at@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek TNG

MFL1@LEHIGH.BITNET writes:
>     Second, speed...  Why could the 1701-D only hit warp 10, and
>that only by shaking itself to pieces???  In STIII, the Excelsior
>was capable of speeds in excess of warp 10 with the use of it's
>transwarp, so why, 78 years later, is the Enterprise incapable of
>such speeds??

Maybe it is because transwarp ten is given as warp, let's see
transwarp 10 = Warp 21.5, and Transwarp 9.8 which theoretical max is
warp 20.9.  OF course I could be using the wrong formula for
transwarp (I am using that warp x^3 and transwarp is x^4 or
something like that).

>     Really like the captain....

   I also liked the captian, I agree.

Mark Giaquinto
(505)-296-8818
669 Black Hawk Dr Ne, 87122 Albuquerque, NM
geo@europa.UNM.EDU
{ucbvax:convex:gatech:hc.dspo.gov!hi!ames:csu-cs}!unmvax!europa!geo

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 14:36:09 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Star Trek: The Next Generation

Oh come on, the new Star Trek is the worst piece of drivel I've seen
in years (it's even worse than the new Max Headroom).  Let me back
this up with a few points:

1) Well, they couldn't think of new characters, so they used ones
   from the old show and from other SF series.  Specifically, Data
   is just a Spock clone (let's see we've got this superhuman,
   emotionless, supercomputer), Reiker has Kirk's butchness and
   McCoy's distrust of the "Spock" figure, and the telepathic bimbo
   is a dead ringer for Kally from Blake's 7.  Furthermore, they
   stole the idea of the love affair between the "brash young
   commander" and the "beautiful alien officer" directly from "Star
   Trek: The Motion Sickness" (I didn't like that movie either...).

2) The plotlines are ripoffs from the old shows.  The premier was a
   combination of "The Squire of Gothos" (Q even TALKED like
   Trelane), "Arena", with a touch of "Devil in the Dark" ("I feel
   PAIN... LONLINESS..."-- oh COME ON!).  It looks like the next
   episode is a complete ripoff, too.  I mean, the Federation has
   already encountered this disease-- it shouldn't be any trouble.

3) The stories are badly written.  Example: In the middle of this
   intense struggle over the planet, the captain takes time out to
   go down and talk to an old friend about how maybe that old friend
   should request a transfer off the Enterprise.  I really believe
   this.

4) Absolutely none of the actors can act their way out of a wet
   paper plot complication (which by the way is all that the first
   show was-- one right after another).  This is probably due to the
   fact that all the characters are not characters, but cliches--
   you can't act when you're not given anything to work with.

On the whole, it was completely disappointing.  On the other hand, I
guess there'll be enough cultists around to keep the show going for
a while.

Hal Pomeranz

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 14:28:51 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>The most exciting part of the pilot episode is the separation of
>the saucer section from the warp module, and then their later
>reuniting.

I guess I don't understand the basic premise of carrying families on
board.  Is the Enterprise no longer a front-line battleship?  How
could it possibly be one with this baggage?  And why carry them
along?  Are they going so far away from civilization?

>Equally stunning was the originality of the plot.  A super-powerful
>alien in foppish humanoid form captures the Enterprise and forcibly
>captures the bridge crew to put them on trial for humanity's
>savagery.

This was the single most disappointing part of the premiere.  I
hated this type of script in the original Star Trek, and I hate it
more when I see that _that's actually what they meant to do_ (I
always thought it was some kind of mistake, or a budget problem).  I
missed the credit - who wrote this thing, anyway?

The second plot here was good.  It even had hints of originality.
It would have made a nice one-hour episode.  I objected to the
"foppish humanoid" pointing out every stupid facet of the dilemma,
however.  Actually, I objected to everything about him.

>The preview shows yet another new rerun: beaming down to a
>mysterious planet, the Enterprise finds the dead bodies of a number
>of drunken revelers.  Turns out there's this disease that makes
>people act drunk, which the crew of the Enterprise then contracts.
>They lose all their inhibitions and go prancing through the
>corridors

It does seem a poor idea to show everyone acting out of character
when they haven't even established their characters yet.

A warning - the fop's last line hinted that he might come back.
For the good of the series he had better not.

Vernon Lee
scorpion@rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 19:57:54 GMT
From: wls@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Bill Stapleton)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this new show, but not so open
that my brains leak out.  There's something that bothers me, and
nobody else has mentioned it, so here goes: The saucer separated at
warp 9+, and presumably continued merrily along at warp 9+, with no
"star drive" - How would it stop or even slow down, let alone come
back to meet them?  It seems this whole separation bit is a little
on the hokey side.  On the other hand, I do like the new
communicators, definitely a step up from the flip-top tweet-tweet
boxy things.

And I'm glad they've proved themselves not to be savage - I mean Lt.
Yar likes to pick fights, the Klingon almost wasted the viewscreen,
and the Captain yells at kids, but hardly savage....  :-)

Bill Stapleton
net:   wls@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
uucp:  uwvax!uwmcsd1!wls

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #435
Date:  8 Oct 87 0844-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #435
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 87 0844-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #435
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 435

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Bester & Kay (4 msgs) &
                          Intelligent Suns (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 22:15:40 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Alfred Bester dies

I'm rather unhappy to have to announce that Alfred Bester died,
apparently on Tuesday. I've confirmed this with two sources,
although I don't have details yet.

My sympathies to his family, close and extended. Which includes all
of us who loved him and his work.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 22:47:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: The Fionavar Tapestry

As far as world and story elements are concerned, I think Kay's
trilogy is closest to Joy Chant's "Red Moon and Black Mountain":
there is a small group of characters from our world transported to
the world in question, where each has an important to play; there is
an array of deities who take an indirect part in the conflict; there
is an enchanter who gives up his/her powers; there is a destructive
wild magic (not focused in one person/talisman as in the Covenant
series); there is a nation of plainsmen allied to the citied folk,
among whom one of the earth-characters (separated from the others)
spends time and becomes a practical blood-brother and great fighter;
one character leaps into an abyss as a willing sacrifice; the war is
not a drawn- out campaign but one large battle.  Of course, Kay has
elements not found in Chant, and I agree that the treatment is fresh
and very good.  I think the major difference between tFT and RM&BM
is that the latter seems to have an underlying Christian world-view,
while the former has a Celtic world-view to match the Celtic story
elements; I can't see the gods dallying with mortals in Chant, the
way they do in Kay.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 00:36:21 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Fionavar Tapestry

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>>Continuing my earlier posting, when I read to the end of TWF, I
>>found the reference to Cader Sedat (?) being the center of all
>>things. Sounds like the Primal Pattern of Amber to me.
>
>This is wrong by even the wildest stretch of the imagination; [Good
>arguments why Fionvarr is not borrowed from Amber deleted.]  TFT is
>much better than the Amber stuff that Zelazney does.

This is Tim's opinion, to which he is certainly entitled.  (I even
agree, if you leave the word "much" out.)  But stated here, it looks
like a argument that Kay could not be borrowing from Zelazny.  And,
of course, it is not; it is quite possible for the derived work to
be better (even much better) than the original.  Shakespeare, for
example, never used original material in his life.

Incidently, Kay gave a talk at the Worldcon about his collaboration
with Christopher Tolkien in preparing the manuscript for The
Silmarillion.  If he is to be believed, and I do, without his
participation the book published would have been a scholarly text,
with many notes on variant forms of the originals, and likely more
commentary than text from JRRT.  I have to say I think what we
actually got is much better.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 02:41:34 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: The Fionavar Tapestry

eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>In both Tolkien and Kay you have epic grandeur, a sense that the
>prose could naturally break into poetry at any moment.
>
>Zelazny, on the other hand, is a looser, more chaotic and more
>enigmatic writer. Amber dazzles and entertains, but for me it never
>*convinces*.  Too much left unsaid; too many loose ends, too many
>rabbits pulled out of too many hats. Ironically, Zelazny (the SF
>writer) does a poorer job of world construction (usually the
>strength of SF) than the fantasy writers Tolkien, Kay, and
>Donaldson do (but in his defence it should be noted that these
>three are very exceptionally good at it for fantasy writers).

  Hmmmm, part of the beauty of "Nine Princes in Amber" was the way
it started out in the "real" world and slowly changed into the
fantastic.  Yes, there was a lot left unsaid, and lots and lots of
loose ends.  But to me that said that there was a lot more *there*
than if it all had been neatly tied up into a bundle.  I know from
experiance that constructing a world generates a lot more material
than you can use in one story... or in five!
   In fact, this was one of the wonders of LotR, it hinted and gave
momentary glimpses of a bigger and more detailed world than the
story needed.  Both Fionavar and The Land really *failed* to do
this, giving us instead only a couple of throw-away treads that
might lead us somewhere elsewhen.
   In Amber, as well, there was a need for LOTS of worlds, not just
one, to be created, while all three of the others were set more or
less in only one.  This does make things more chaotic, but then one
of the sub-plots was the conflict of Chaos with Order.  Fitting, no?
   Lastly, while Roger *did* make his name as an SF writer, he has
always been a very *soft* (as opposed to hard) SF writer.  His
degree was in Elizebethian and Jacobethian drama, and it shows.
Roger is really more stylistically aligned with the fantasy writers
than with the SF writers.  As for world creation, I would say that
that is really more of a *fantasy* attribute than an SF one. Hmmm,
good question.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 03:22:22 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu
Subject: Re: The Fionavar Tapestry

This was a difficult set of books for me to read. They contain the
most heart-wrending imagery I have ever encountered anywhere. Good
but hard on the system.

Michael Collier
University of New Mexico Computing Center
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
...!cmcl2!beta!hc!hi!charon!collier
...!ames!hc!hi!charon!collier

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 10:07:15 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Robin <CLS22@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Intelligent suns

    How about "The Black Cloud" by Fred Hoyle?  This has a
super-intelligent cloud of dust which stops off at the solar system
to "recharge" whilst on its way to investigate a particular region
of space (This is set & written in the 1950's, so read it if only
for the description of the computer they use - punch cards, valves,
etc).  He explains how they are born & how they work quite nicely,
although you won't suddenly believe in these clouds after reading it
8-)

Robin@uk.ac.bradford.central.cyber1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 10:57 EDT
From: Gort%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Intelligent Suns

The story by John Varley about "Vicious, intelligent black holes" is
called "Lollipop and the Tar Baby", and is one of his better short
stories.  It can also be found (I think) in the collection called
"Blue Champagne".  While on the subject of Intelligent Suns, I
always think of Robert L Forward's "Duology" "Dragons Egg" and
"Starquake" about the Cheela, a race living on the surface of a
neutron star.  While on the subject, has anyone actually looked up
the references that Forward gives at the end of the Book?  Some of
them appear to be in existing journals.  I know that Forward himself
is a physicist, working with gravity, but I haven't done the
research.

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 16:13:51 EDT
From: jw@math.mit.edu
Subject: Intelligent Suns

Only a fudgy answer to the question about intelligent stars in
science fiction: the characters Mrs. Whatsit, Mrs. Which, etc.  in
"A Wrinkle in Time" by l'Engle claim to be stars (rather old stars,
if I remember) although appear in anthropoid form.  Excellent book.

Julian West

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87 16:29 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: intelligent suns...

In "The Chronicles of Narnia" by C.S. Lewis, I seem to recall that
all stars were actually intelligent beings.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 87  16:35:13 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry) writes:

>Star Maker by Olaf Stapeldon had intelligent stars.  This was not a
>big feature, nor was it explained "scientifically".  His point was

I remember in Starmaker that the gaseous structures of suns could be
compared to tissue layers in organic beings. I think the main
problem organics had when communicating with suns was the vast time
differential i.e. a sun may have a single thought once every
thousand years or so.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 03:38:26 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!bob@RUTGERS.EDU (Mythical Bob Ankeney)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

     I vaguely seem to recall some intelligent stars in a few short
stories by Frank Herbert (with saboteur extraordinaire Jorj X
McKie).  There were 2 or 3 short stories based on this character.

Bob Ankeney
...!tektronix!reed!bob

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 17:29:02 GMT
From: darcic@midas.tek.com (darci chapman)
Subject: Re: Intellegent Suns (and Animals in SF)

From: Rodney Elin <KL791C%GWUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I seem to recall a book that combined intelligent suns and animals
>in science fiction by the name of _Dogsbody_, written by Diana
>Wayne Jones. [...]

I suppose this is really stretching it for this newsgroup, but I
once read the sequel to "101 Dalmations" where Sirus (you know, the
dog star) wanted all the dogs of earth to join him. So Sirus made
all the humans stay asleep and the dogs (other animals?) had the run
the of the place until they figured out what was going on. In the
end, they all had to choose if they wanted to stay here or join
Sirus.

Definitely juvenile but then I was one when I read it :-)

Darci Chapman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1987 00:04 EST
From: Rodney Elin <KL791C%GWUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Intellegent Suns (and Animals in SF)

I seem to recall a book that combined intelligent suns and animals
in science fiction by the name of _Dogsbody_, written by Diana Wayne
Jones.  If memory serves me correctly, it involved a star that was
wrongly accused of some crime. To prove his innocence, he (she?) had
to go to Earth in tho body of a dog and find the real person/animal/
star that committed the crime, or something like that.  I recall
reading it many, many years ago, along with the _Wrinkle_In_Time_
books by L'Engle, so I am pretty sure that it is juvenile science
fiction.

Rodney

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 23:33:05 GMT
From: uunet!dalcs!force10!erskine@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil Erskine)
Subject: Re: intelligent suns... Related beasties

   The novel 'The Sun Destroyers' by Russ Rocklynne features an
interesting race of creature that might be described as sentient
force.  The creatures certainly occupied space, and were
sufficiently powerful to manipulate star-size masses. Call them
diffuse suns.  For some reason they came to mind as I was following
this series of articles and I reread it.  Considering the age of the
story, really four novellettes, which date from 1940 through 1951,
with some later revision; it reads amazingly well, certainly
demonstrating a level of psychological concern very rare in such old
stuff. It is the only book by this author I have ever seen. Does
anyone know of any other works by this author that I would be likely
to encounter?  Who was he? The originals were published in
'Astonishing Stories'.  If anyone on the net has access to the
originals and the later Ace edition, it would be interesting to know
how much rewriting actually was required to make the 1940's pulp
relate to the 1970's audience of the Ace edition.

   This is one of my first distinct memories of Science Fiction.  I
had read some other stuff, but this made a real impression on me
fifteen years ago.

    Into the Darkness from Astonishing Stories, June 1940
    Daughter of Darkness from Astonishing Stories 1941
    Abyss of Darkness from Astonishing Stories, Dec 1942
    Revolt of the Devil Star from Imagination, Feb 1950.

   I've never heard of the last magazine.

Neil S. Erskine
MT&T - (902) 453-4915 x340
AP Computers
3845 Dutch Village Rd.
Halifax, N.S. B3L-4H9
{garfield,watmath,ihnp4!utzoo!utai}!dalcs!force10!erskine

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 22:21:41 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: intelligent suns... Related beasties

erskine@force10.UUCP (Neil Erskine) writes:
>Considering the age of the [Ross Rocklynne] story, really four
>novellettes, which date from 1940 through 1951, with some later
>revision; it reads amazingly well, certainly demonstrating a level
>of psychological concern very rare in such old stuff. It is the
>only book by this author I have ever seen. Does anyone know of any
>other works by this author that I would be likely to encounter?

See also Ace pb 52460, copyright 1973, _The_Men_In_The_Mirror_,
which collects six Ross Rocklynne stories written from 1936 to 1952,
all but one published in _Astounding_.

Like _The_Sun_Destroyers_, these stories often display a depth of
character development unusual for their time, in addition to all the
cardinal virtues of the classic Campbellian "problem" story. Reading
them convinced me that Rocklynne was fully the equal of Campbell's
'star' writers of the period, and I rather wonder why he has been so
completely forgotten.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
Phone: (215)-296-5718
{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 05:02:26 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

grantg@zaphod.UUCP (Grant Gilchrist) writes:
>gtchen@faline.UUCP (George T. Chen) writes:
>>I remember reading a novel in grade school called A WRINKLE IN
>>TIME in which three of the characters are stars who have taken
>>other forms...traveling incognito, as it were.

I came in late on this thread, so please forgive a repeat, if this
is.

I was cruising the used SF paperback shelf at the local new & used
book store, and lucked onto the 1978 Del Rey _Best of Eric Frank
Russell_.  Amazing how many of my all time favorite short stories
were in this one book!  Even more amazing how well stories written
around people instead of technology have withstood the test of time;
the old guy could sure write!

(Get on with it Kent...) Anyway, in one of the stories,
"Metamorphosite", Terra recovered thousands of years after the
nuclear holocaust by her surviving (and unknowing) children must
show cause why she should not be destroyed out of hand as a danger
to the kids empire.  The kicker is when the hero and two friends
demonstrate why Terrans are no longer interested in empire building,
after mutation and divergent evolution, by putting on a pretty good
imitation of pocket suns.

Thought this might fit in to your discussion.

Kent

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #436
Date:  8 Oct 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #436
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #436
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 436

Today's Topics:

        Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 16:43:01 GMT
From: cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Star Trek TNG

MFL1@LEHIGH.BITNET writes:
>I just woke up after seeing the first episode of Star Trek - TNG on
>channel 29.  For a new show, not bad, but it isn't Star Trek.  I
>enjoyed many things, but had a problem with as many.

That all depends.  I feel that it captured the feel of the series
(good and bad) quite well.  As most of the 'general populace' is
familliar with the movies only, I admit that the only resemblance to
any of the movies is the plotline.  ;-)

>     First off, from the very start, I had a nagging suspicion that
>the identification of the Enterprise as a "Galaxy" class starship
>was off.  To find out for sure, this morning I re-read, (yes,
>re-read) the book Star Trek II, TWoK.  Now I know that some of the
>Timescape books don't follow with the old TV show, but the movie
>books usually do.  Why, then, did Kirk ask Sulu about the promotion
>of a friend of his to the captaincy of a "Galaxy" class starship?
>The ship was supposed to be smaller (much smaller) than the
>Constitution or Enterprise class ship and have speeds in excess of
>warp 15.

It has occured to me that Paramount does not pay much attention to
what is happening in print.  Just because McIntyre wrote the
novelization doesn't mean that her word (sorry) is law.

>     Second, speed...  Why could the 1701-D only hit warp 10, and
>that only by shaking itself to pieces???  In STIII, the Excelsior
>was capable of speeds in excess of warp 10 with the use of it's
>transwarp, so why, 78 years later, is the Enterprise incapable of
>such speeds??

There is still some debate as to whether the 'Warp Factor' isn't
actually Transwarp.

>     Now, for some good points.  Dr. McCoy...  "Do you know how old
>I am???"  I liked that.  Hope it doesn't become a permanent thing
>though.

Amen to that.  If Bones is 137, Spock will be a middle-aged Vulcan.
Unless, of course he dies (again).

>     Really enjoyed some of the special effects.  The separation of
>the primary and secondary hulls was an impressive feat, even if it
>was done a bit soon in the show for my tastes.  My only hope is
>that the show doesn't go the way of all the others that relied on
>special effects to make the show (Battlestar Galactica, Buck
>Rogers...)  Please god, develop some solid characters!!!

I think there should be no worry on that part.  Picard was well done
as the 'thoughtful commander'.  Anyone notice that the Kirk type
(Ryker) has been moved down to 'Away team' commander where he
belonged in the first place?

>     Really like the captain....  Loved the hemline on the
>ambassador...  One question though...  The next episode planned
>seems an awful lot like an original ST episode...  Crew infested
>with disease that makes them silly.  Please let there be no-one
>singing "I'll take you home again Kathlene!"

Old series episode title: "The Naked Time".  New series (rumored)
title: "The Naked Now" (by the same writer, I think).  Double on the
"Kathleen..."  bit.  Can you immagine Worf being a 'real' Klingon?

All in all, I think that it was a good start (Not great).  Hopefully
there will be more charachter development in the future.  One minor
complaint: I feel that they need a chief engineer (Not necessarily a
Scotsman) who 'owns' the ship.  A disembodied voice complaining
"Captain, I'm not sure if she can take much more of this!" during
the warp'speed chase scene would have added to the tension.

Taki Kogoma
cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu
hi!charon!cs2551ai@hc.dspo.gov
{gatech|ucbvax}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!charon!cs2551ai

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 05:56:55 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Plus/Minus evaluation of ST:TNG (Spoiler)

On the Plus side:

   Captain Picard:
      I was impressed.  Strong Acting, and a real character.
      Powerful, but real.  Not at all like James T. Kirk, and that's
      a good thing.

   Data:
      I was ready to hate this character the moment I heard about
      it.  Really *hate* it.  Instead, I see potential.  I would
      like to have them delve into the issues of AI a bit here.

   Klingon:
      Also something I was prepared to dislike, but I see potential.

   Production:
      The production values are good.  The direction was credible,
      although pace was bad in a few areas.  That may have been the
      script.  I'm assuming SFX will become less prevalent later.

   Roddenbery:
      I hear he's leaving control of this show.

On the Minus side:

   GBotG:
      Like I said, it may be good to hear he's leaving, but his
      negative touches were all over the show.  As much as he spouts
      that he wants something new, the only new stuff he shows us is
      bad stuff he couldn't get into a script before he was famous.

   The Betamax:
      I can see this getting trite after a while.  Half the time
      she'll be a pain, the other half she'll have some amazing
      psychic insight to save the day.  This character has "plot
      device" written all over her.

   Levar Burton:
      So he's blind and has fancy sensors.  Surely Data has the same
      stuff (why wouldn't he, if it's so compact?) and can use it
      better.  Fortunately Data's special abilities won't be
      overused as plot devices.

   McCoy:
      I don't care how old he gets, McCoy will never reach flag
      rank.  He isn't flag material and he wouldn't want to be.

   "Q":
      By far the worst.  Semi-ok as a guest appearance, but if they
      bring this guy back it's serious trouble.  The greatest curse
      of any TV series is the budgetary rule that says recurring
      villains are a good idea.

      If a baddie recurs, it should be rarely, and with good reason.
      And not an all-powerful, snide baddie.

Unknown:
   Families on the ship:
      This is no doubt planned to be a deliberate plot limitation,
      but it's a huge one.  Does the Enterprise have to split apart
      every time it goes into battle?  Will there be no battle?
      Will the separation/docking take as long?

   Writing:
      Writing for the opener was medium.  I hope they spend more of
      their budgets on good name SF writers, or put written SF
      writers in tandem with TV screenplay folks.

General Impression:
   Positive.  But needs work.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd
Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 06:44:35 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

wls@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Bill Stapleton) writes:
>And I'm glad they've proved themselves not to be savage - I mean
>Lt. Yar likes to pick fights, the Klingon almost wasted the
>viewscreen, and the Captain yells at kids, but hardly savage....

Bill mentions here, in passing more or less, one of the major
glaring errors that bugged me throughout the pilot.  There is *no*
*way* the rambunctious insubordination of Lt. Yar (as Security
Officer) could be tolerated by a Captain.  Yes, she was
appropriately uncertain of what an officer should do (a mere Looie,
after all), but my goodness her willingness to ignore her Captain
and dive into the fray was boggling.  Hell, she wasn't diving into
the fray, she was initiating the fray!!  Bonus points on the show
for making the most highly-skilled hand-to-hand combatant a woman,
though.  Reminds me of a dungeon or two I've been in.

A couple other negatives I've agreed with: poor acting, especially
at the outset; vague-to-lacking motivation for Q; too much
redundancy from ST; what will they *ever* do with the Counselor?
"Oooh, pain... sorrow" drechlich, if they're smart she'll lose the
empathy for minor telepathy as it's much better dramatically; cheap
thrills with McCoy.  The wanderings of the script were
unprofessional ("Shut off that damn noise!"?).  D.C. Fontana wrote
some nice stuff in the original series; I hope she gains her
crafts[man,woman,person]ship back in a succeeding episode.

No one has glanced askance at "Dr. Crusher".  "Crusher"???  I dunno;
all I can think of are a Professional Wrestler [sic] or Bone[s]
Crusher.  I don't like the powder-blue and yellow (I think) paint on
the rear of the central nacelle -- too glitzy.  Minor technical
errors abound (like the oft-challenged limited warp of 9.n).

Good points: 9+Warp U-turn, orbital maneuvering, etc. aside, I like
the idea of the saucer separation.  Enterprise is now a city with
kids (I like that mostly), and you do your best to keep
non-combatants, well, non-combatant.  The hologram room is right
nice -- wish I had one out my back door.  [Ideas like that are one
of the reasons I *read* SF.]  Some of the characters have potential.
Reign in Yar and we've got an attractive and intelligent junior
officer with spunk and power.  Other than having a travesty of a
name, Data may be fun to watch because he *wants* to be as human as
possible.  The Klingon *might* be played for a good exploration of
how enemies may become friends -- there's good in your toughest
adversary -- and he might be delightful to watch, much as Spock was
at his best, as a Stranger in a Strange Spaceship.

Final analysis: The Next Generation's pilot was about as well
thought out as the original Star Trek pilot was.  Actors are
fighting to grasp roles, production staff doesn't understand the
characters or their environs yet, Lucas hasn't decided how to deal
with the techie displays, et cetera ad bloody nauseam.  Even with
the well-executed framing story of Menagerie, the original Star Trek
footage displays these same shortfalls -- remember how cold and
unlikeable Number 1 was?  remember Spock's excitability?  remember
how clumsy the technical wizards were at that point? -- and so I
hope to see similar growth in all facets of ST:TNG presentation.
I'm not saying, "Count on it.", but I most certainly am suggesting
that there is hope for a series as competently executed and salient
within the '80s as the original Star Trek was within the '60s.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 20:38:46 GMT
From: hardin@hpindda.hp.com (John Hardin)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation

Pleeeeaaaaassssseeee!  No more "this character is just a rip-off of
that character" criticisms.  Any, ANY, piece of literature can be
criticized as having character that are similar to those in some
other piece of literature.  Why don't we just shoot all the people
that remind us of someone else?

The original Star Trek series was no flawless gem, either.  Nor was
the early MASH.  Many series need time to find a direction and
perfect their characters.  Give them this time and you can wind up
with many hours of decent entertainment.

If you don't like the new Star Trek, switch channels.  For myself,
I'm just going to relax for a few episodes and see whether it begins
to develop.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 00:13:39 GMT
From: hwarkentyne@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Kenneth Warkentyne)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

David Macy-Beckwith  writes:
>Tim Maroney writes:
>>Star Trek is back.  The same show.  The same plots.  In many
>>cases, the same characters. [Tim goes on to slag the new Star Trek
>>TV show]
>
>Don't watch this show. ...  The primary purpose of criticism is to
>instruct. Simply saying "It all sucks canal water" may make you
>feel better, but it does nothing useful.  ...

Instead of complaining that Tim shouldn't be so nasty as to blast
your favorite show, why don't you rebut the specific arguments he
put forth on why Star Trek is bad.

Frankly, I agree with Tim.  The command room of the new ship looks
like a cocktail lounge.  The acting was wooden and the scenes staged
as if the director really wanted me to skip over to another channel
to watch the Expo's lose to the Cardinals.  However, what really
sunk the show for me was the villain who appeared right off the bat
dressed in a silly costume and spouting pseudo Elizabethan English.

This unexplained person displayed the personality of a petulant
twelve year old and was as interesting as a pet rock.  The low grade
philosophising that we were subjected to when the villain put
humanity on trial was painful to listen to.

The other definite losers in the opening episode were the first
officer, whose chin rivals Kirk Douglas's and whose personality
resembled a piece of wood, and the half alien woman who could feel
other people's emotions.

I could go on but instead, in the spirit of being constructive, here
are some suggestions that I think would improve the show.  Forget
all the patronizing, moralistic crap.  The show should concentrate
on being a good fast paced adventure series.  It could be that.

There should be much more interaction between the characters.  A
little rivalry between the hot shot first officer and the veteran
Captain would make things interesting.  Lose the sappy
sentimentality that pervaded the old show and inject a little more
realism.  Make the female security chief (or whatever she is)
resentful of the male hierarchy that dominates the Star Fleet.  Give
the black guy and the android a chance to react to the racism that
exists beneath the surface of society.  Demonstrate the huge gap
that exists between the wealthy who are able to zoom from planet to
planet and the poor who are still just as ignorant about their own
world let alone the myriad other worlds.  Show how this ignorance
leads them to fear and mistrust the strange aliens that humanity
must deal with.  Give us some conflict.

Ooops.  I forgot, the 23rd century (or whatever century they're in)
doesn't have any problems like sexism or racism or pollution or
poverty or drug addiction or whatever.  Oh well.

Ken Warkentyne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Oct 87 16:40:01 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Roddenberry plot devices

GR seems to have two plots that he just _has_ to stick into a show
of his.  The first is the theme of two parts becoming whole.  In
"The Cage," the original Star Trek pilot, the Talosians created an
illusion of Pike for Vina, who could not have been happy without her
"perfect man." In The Questor Tapes, Questor is searching for his
creator, whom he finally finds (but he dies, so maybe this isn't a
good example). In ST:TMP, Decker joins with V'ger to become a
greater being, one not confined within the limits of the universe.
And, of course, at the end of ST:TNG, we have (edited by author for
benefit of people who won't see it until tomorrow). The other plot
is the machine that wants to become human, to reach fulfillment. ST
presented this in a backwards sort of way: Spock wants to erase his
troublesome human half, to be fulfilled as a Vulcan. Questor wants
to get the information to complete his programming from his creator,
who unfortunately dies before telling him. (Is this right?  I
haven't seen it for years.)  V'ger wants to reach fulfillment, and
can only do it by absorbing Decker's human qualities. Data from
ST:TNG is such an advanced android that Starfleet tests for
sentience show him as alive. But this isn't enough--he really wants
to be human. His favorite fictional character is Pinocchio.  And of
course, we have the normal Roddenberry "Humans aren't so bad after
all" attitude all the way through ST:TNG. Have I missed any standard
plot devices?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #437
Date:  8 Oct 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #437
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #437
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 437

Today's Topics:

            Books - Tolkien (3 msgs) & Zelazny (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 15:27:11 GMT
From: hilda@tcom.stc.co.uk
Subject: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

I feel that I must broadcast my opinion on The Lord Of The Rings.

The LOTR appears to be the untouchable work in this group.  I do not
agree with this.

I found the content bitty, the characters wooden, and the ending a
terrible anti-climax. I struggled through the Silmarillion, which I
have to say was self-righteous rubbish.

Surely somebody else must agree with me ?

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 22:46:25 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

hilda@tcom.stc.co.uk writes:
>The LOTR appears to be the untouchable work in this group.
>I do not agree with this.
>
>I found the content bitty, the characters wooden, and the ending
>a terrible anti-climax. I struggled through the Silmarillion,
>which I have to say was self-righteous rubbish.
>
>Surely somebody else must agree with me ?

I have to agree with your first point.  It does seem untouchable by
the net, while everything else is subject to opinions from
"horrendous" to "magnificent."  Why should it be that LOTR gets only
good reviews?

I have been reading SF and fantasy for about 14 years (starting with
the kiddie stuff, and moving up).  During that time, I kept on
hearing about Tolkien, and how wonderful his "Middle Earth" stories
were.  Finally, feeling that I must be missing out, I picked up "The
Hobbit."  I liked it.  It seemed a bit cliched at times, but it was
a good read.  I decided to take the plunge and read "Lord of the
Rings."  It was not (and still is not) a good read.  I kept on
interrupting my reading of the long, dreary, slow-moving passages to
read more enjoyable books, and "Fellowship of the Ring" took about
two years to complete.  At this point, I figured, well, it was
*starting* to get interesting.  Maybe the next one would be better.
No such luck.  Granted, some of the battles are interesting (no, I
don't read a book just for the action, but of all the things that
can make a book interesting [plot, characterization, exploration of
ideas, etc.] this is the only one to be found in Tolkien), but other
than that, it just drags.  I am still somewhere, about 3/4 through
it, where Frodo, Sam, and Smeagol are hiding out near Mordor.

The characters are dull.  We never get to see anything of their
personalities.  Hobbits are hobbits (cowardly and comfort-seeking,
until courage is *really* needed), Elves are elves (noble and fair,
wise and brave), Dwarves are dwarves (strong, steadfast, loyal,
suspicious), etc.  If you know what race a character is, you know
all about him.  The only interesting ones are the orcs.

The plot is dull.  Straight "good vs. evil" and nothing more.  No
matter what happens, something will happen to help the good guys.
And how many times can Tolkien pull the "at the last moment, a
miracle occurs" line?

The action is dull.  Make that non-existent.  Except for the
above-mentioned battle scenes, it's all talk, and not very good talk
at that.

Tolkien's descriptions are beautiful.  But how many times in one
book can an author describe the scenery, the weather, a forest, a
tower, etc. ?  If the author is Tolkien, there seems to be no limit.
One of the critics quoted in the front of the Ballantine editions
notes Tolkien's "clean, unencumbered prose", or words to that
effect.  He must have read the abridged version.  There is nothing
"unencumbered" about it.  If he'd skipped the overworked
descriptions, "Lord of the Rings" would have been a duology.

And, worst of all, the constant singing.  Thank gods the songs and
poems are in italics, so I can tell what to skip.  I read them for a
while, but then realized they were just filler.

So, given all this, why do people think so highly of it?  Simply
put, because it was the first.  As far as I know (not all that far,
I'll admit) Tolkien was one of the first fantasy writers of the
modern era.  He defined a unified world, with an interesting
population and history.  Much of the fantasy which followed has
borrowed from Tolkien in small or large degree.

The problem, for those of us who don't like Tolkien, is that we've
read the later books as well.  Being descended from the LOTR-style
fantasy, they are naturally improvements upon it.  And so, although
Tolkien's books are not very good (in some ways, they are very bad)
compared to those that followed, considering the tradition they
started, and considering that they were, at the time, an original
creation, they deserve respect.  Therefore, I will respect them, but
probably won't finish reading them.

(Further: What is supposed to be so great about Donaldson's "Thomas
Covenant" stories?  In the past six years, I have managed to choke
down exactly one-hundred-and-twelve pages of the drivel, and many
people claim it's great! )

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 20:12:35 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>So, given all this, why do people think so highly of it?  Simply
>put, because it was the first.  As far as I know (not all that far,
>I'll admit) Tolkien was one of the first fantasy writers of the
>modern era.

If many people felt the same way you did about Tolkien, he would
have been the last!  I know more people who put Tolkien as their
favorite author, (myself included) than people who did not like the
books.  No author is universal, and everyone to his own tastes.
Your critique shows you have missed many points and oversimplified,
probably because you couldn't maintain enough interest analyze more
deeply.  I could point them out, but other readers of the net may
find the exercise tedious.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 20:47:52 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!mbrown@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Brown)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

AERTS@HLERUL5.BITNET says:
>> won't ask where he got Rebma. :-) Does anybody know for sure?
> message. :) But why not ask where Rebma comes from? Or do I miss
> some background here?

   Look at the spelling of Rebma again.  Along the same lines did
anyone else notice that in _Blood of Amber_ published by Arbor
House, the Bayne family estates are named Arbor House.

>>    They are Delwin, and his sister Sand.
> But the actual question about this quote is this one: Where are
> Delwin and Sand mentioned? I reread the first five novels quite

In _Blood of Amber_.

Mike Brown
Department of Computer Science
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29634-1906
(803)656-2838
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!mbrown
Internet: mbrown@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 16:55:16 GMT
From: lll-crg!ptsfa!pbhyf!tlh@RUTGERS.EDU (Lee Hounshell)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

AERTS@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>> I assume this is where Zelazny got the name Tir-na Nog'th?  (No,
>> I won't ask where he got Rebma. :-) Does anybody know for sure?
>
>I also had that thought about Tir-na Nog'th when I read the Tolkien
>message. :) But why not ask where Rebma comes from? Or do I miss
>some background here?

I don't think that the name "Rebma" *came* from anywhere.. If you
remember, everything in Rebma was reversed, even the pattern.  If
you look closely, you'll notice that "Rebma" is nothing more than
"Amber" spelled backwards.  The *real* question is "where did
_Amber_ come from?"..

Lee Hounshell

------------------------------

Date: 29 Sep 87 16:44:06 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

AERTS@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>> I assume this is where Zelazny got the name Tir-na Nog'th?  (No,
>> I won't ask where he got Rebma. :-) Does anybody know for sure?
>
>I also had that thought about Tir-na Nog'th when I read the Tolkien
>message. :) But why not ask where Rebma comes from? Or do I miss
>some background here?

Because "Rebma" is obvious.  It is "Amber" reversed, as the kingdom
of Rebma is the reflection of Amber.  You know, the way you see the
reflection of something when you look into a calm pool.  Only this
one has a little more substance than the average mirror-image.

>>    They are Delwin, and his sister Sand.
>Where are Delwin and Sand mentioned? I reread the first five novels
>quite recently and did some research then, but did not come across
>these two.

Delwin (actually, I think it was Delwyn) and Sand are not mentioned
in the first series.  I think the first reference was in "Blood of
Amber," but it may have been "Trumps of Doom."  I seem to remember
them being twins, but maybe not.

> When Corwin gets back to Amber (on Gerards Trump, wasn't it?) it
>turns out that eight days have passed there - although he
>experienced it as a few hours because of the time differential.
>Obviously, time moves faster in Amber than in the Courts.
> But then Corwin asks Brand why the forces of the Black Road have
>not yet mounted a new attack as they've had plenty of time to do so
>because of the time differential - obviously time moves faster in
>the Courts than it does in Amber.
> That's right, it doesn't make sense. Or does it?

Yes, it does.  In a sort of chaotic way.  I've been through this
just recently, due to Jurt's apparently slow healing, when I thought
the courts should move faster.  It has to do with the nature of the
Courts.  Remember, nothing else is constant, so why should time be?
It may be faster at one time, slower another.  In fact, it may not
even be possible to draw a valid frame of reference from a place
with a constant time-flow.  Who knows, it may even run backwards at
times.  Wouldn't that be a kick?  (No, Roger, don't try it, please!)

> She pointed out that as Ghostwheel has quite a few things in
>common with the Logrus, it might serve to balance the disturbance
>caused by the appearance of Corwin's second pattern... Amber vs
>Chaos and Corwin's Pattern vs Ghostwheel should keep things in
>balance! Sounds quite plausible, doesn't it?

What do we..umm..they have in common?  I haven't noticed anything.
Ghostwheel doesn't confer powers onto anyone, the Logrus isn't
conscious (as far as we've seen), the Logrus doesn't affect its
environment directly, etc.  I don't know of anything they have in
common.  However, I do agree that Ghostwheel could be very helpful
in controlling shadowstorms, since it is *learning* how to do just
about anything it wants.

> Waiting eagerly for the 8th book,

Do it the easy way.  Summon your Logrus sight, reach through a few
shadows, and... Hey, that's *my* copy!

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 15:05:28 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Sign Of Chaos (NO REAL SPOILERS)

dykimber@phoenix.PRINCETON.EDU (Daniel Yaron Kimberg) writes:
> Well, I did it again, just like last time.  After months of
> anxious waiting, I finally saw Roger Zelazny's new Amber novel,
> Sign of Chaos, in a bookstore
>
> I will say that although it's not among the top seven Amber books,

I have to say that I liked it mucho better than books 6 & 7.  I
think Zelazny put alot more into developing the Merlin charactor,
what with all those special spells - like the 4th of July spell!
Plus, the story has grown much more interesting.  I've since re-read
books 6 & 7 and have discovered that I missed quite a few parts
which are neatly tied together in this his latest book.  He's even
kept his sense of humor, especially when describing Jurt!  <bleat,
bleat>

Now, it's back to waiting for the next one!

Bob Pietkivitch
UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 23:32:56 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

tlh@pbhyf.UUCP (Lee Hounshell) writes:
>I don't think that the name "Rebma" *came* from anywhere..
>
>The *real* question is "where did _Amber_ come from?"..

   I always thought that the name Amber was a reference to, well,
you know, permanence, like in the Nine Princes living forever (or
until a brother or sister did them in, duelling for the succession).
Amber being the substance for preserving things in, the expression
"suspended in amber" comes to mind.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 23:03:47 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>Remember, nothing else is constant, so why should time be?  It may
>be faster at one time, slower another.  In fact, it may not even be
>pos- sible to draw a valid frame of reference from a place with a
>constant time-flow.  Who knows, it may even run backwards at times.
>Wouldn't that be a kick?  (No, Roger, don't try it, please!)

But he already has.  Where do you think Benedict's mechanical arm
came from?

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 13:57:40 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber time line request

     Back several months ago someone posted a timeline for the Amber
stories.  Has it been updated to include to details and new
information from "Sign of Chaos"?
     I enjoyed the book, lot of fun, gave a few answers, but NO
conclusion, it just keeps going on.  Lots of action.  Lots of little
scenes to give the user a feel of a different environment.  I hope
these books on Merlin come to a conclusion soon.  Does anyone know
how many more books Zelazny plans to write?
     Have a good day.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 18:24:15 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

AERTS@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
> And here's a question about The Hand of Oberon: ... Obviously,
>time moves faster in Amber than in the Courts. ... obviously time
>moves faster in the Courts than it does in Amber. That's right, it
>doesn't make sense.  Or does it?

I brought this up in a discussion of Amber on the net last year.
The best conclusion we could come to is that time in Amber and in
the Courts doesn't have any fixed relationship -- sometimes one is
faster, sometimes the other.  This is not too unreasonable -- they
are the Courts of *Chaos*, after all.

I think this is an explanation after the fact, and Zelazny really
goofed here, but it doesn't work too badly, anyhow.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Amber and Arthur
Date: 2 Oct 87 16:23:30 GMT

>      Of course, the new Amber books aren't Moorcockian.  In the
> new ones, Zelazny's mutating the Arthurian sagas.  (Merlin, the
> blue cave, etc.)

This is not new to the new series.  In the Guns of Avalon one of the
Lorrainians is named Lancelot and a previous King was named Uther;
Corwin implies he knew a similar Lancelot in fallen Avalon (Avalon
itself being a place name from Arthurian legend).  Also, Corwin's
dream of the Wheel of Fortune is straight out of Arthurian legend
(in which Arthur dreams the same thing), even though it ties in as
well to the theme of the Tarot (with the other Wheel he takes Dara
to see, and the Hanged Man deserter Ganelon interrogates).

David Eppstein
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #438
Date:  8 Oct 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #438
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 87 0933-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #438
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 438

Today's Topics:

       Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 87 20:28:22 edt
From: jarrell@vtopus (Ronald A. Jarrell)
Subject: ST:TNG

Couple of things that I really liked, the "little" touches..

Of course, McCoy's comments about the enterprise "Treat her like a
lady, and she'll always being you home".. (The simple fact he's
ALIVE was great.  I loved the subtle "passing on" of the torch as it
were..  And the bit with looking at Data's ears!)

Did you notice the new Hood is an Excelsior class starship?  And the
ship next week is a standard research vessel, right out of ST III?

Now I'm dying to see the Ferrengi.

The Post Nuclear Holocaust - Is the connected with Khan's wars, or
was this separate?  (Killing all the lawyers?)

I wonder how often they'll be separating the ship?  The original
series never did that because it was considered a catastrophic thing
to do, and needed a drydock to repair.  This seems like it will be a
standard procedure to protect the civilians in battle situations.

Some of the men were wearing miniskirts too...

Worf's (sp?) comment: "He's using the ships shuttlecraft.."  Sounds
like they only have a single shuttle..  Which seems to follow the
lack of a docking bay.. (Why keep a football field when you never
use it?  Put in a holograph deck instead..)

I wonder how many other Galaxy class starships there are.. One would
assume at leat two.. The Galaxy and the Enterprise.  I also wonder
at mission duration.. It's no longer 5 years, it's "continuing".

Photon delivery system is certainly advanced.. AND THEY CAN FIRE
BACKWARDS.  From what I understand we now have 3 Warp drives..
Classic Warp (ala Original series), TransWarp (ala Excelsior) and
New Warp, from TNG..  Supposedly New Warp max is Warp 10, at which
point the ship becomes a singularity, which should destroy it.. So
at Warp 9.8 they should have shot way the hell past Federation
space...

One thing that was very strange until I recognized it.. They kept
mentioning things that they never referred to again, that could have
had whole plots wrapped around them..  Then I realized why it was
strange..  They were talking like a SERIES again, not like movies..
They're building a consistent history..  Nice..

As for characters..  Tasha's cute.. But don't run into her in a dark
alley.  The Ship's Counselor is an interesting concept, why should
the captain remember space law?  But I hope all the episodes don't
revolve around her Betazoid powers....

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 15:21:47 GMT
From: dg-rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

> hwarkentyne@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Kenneth Warkentyne)
>>>Abandon all hope, you who turn to this channel.
> Frankly, I agree with Tim.

In broad, general terms, I agree with Tim's criticims here also.
Well, not *all* hope.  It's not substantially worse than the
original (how could it be... it's recycling all the same plots).

> [...] in the spirit of being constructive, here are some
> suggestions that I think would improve the show.  Forget all the
> patronizing, moralistic crap.  [...]  Make the female security
> chief (or whatever she is) resentful of the male hierarchy that
> dominates the Star Fleet.  Give the black guy and the android a
> chance to react to the racism that exists beneath the surface of
> society. [...etc...]

I thought you wanted to forget all the patronizing, moralistic crap?
How is it any more palatable to have the mundane characters beat
each other with flogs and wear hair shirts than to have Trelane...
uh... I mean "Q" take them to task for whatever-social-shortcoming-
of-the-week?

> Ooops.  I forgot, the 23rd century (or whatever century they're
> in) doesn't have any problems like sexism or racism or pollution
> or poverty or drug addiction or whatever.  Oh well.

Yep.  And they get along beautifully with all manner of alien
creatures, like the Horta... uh... I mean "space jelleyfish", and
are honest, loyal, faithful, strong, forthright, morally straight,
and help old ladies across the street without no expectation of
recompense neither...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Oct 87 11:52:33 CZT
From: "Steve C. Gonzales" <$CS1136%LSUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek - The Next Generation

Did anyone who watched Star Trek - The New Generation like the new
Enterprise?  I found it looked like a space house rather than a
Galaxy Class Starship. There were too many windows. !-) I did enjoy
the show, however. The new cast gives a new dimension to Star Trek.
I thought perhaps that it would flop. It didn't.

------------------------------

Date: 5 October 1987 13:39:11 CDT
From: U25093   at UICVM
Subject: Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Well, I very much enjoyed the first episode of ST:TNG, although
I wish they would have done a story other than the old
superadvanced-alien- hijacks-the-Enterprise kind of thing. The new
Enterprise is quite nice, but to me the main bridge looks rather
large for the number of people occupying it. Perhaps the Battle
Bridge should've been used as the Main Bridge. Anyway, I saw no
serious flaw with any of the characters, and the "Q" being was
rather interesting. From his parting comment I expect he will drop
in on the Enterprise from time to time. Let's hope that he does, and
let's hope that the quality seen in this first episode will continue
on throughout the rest of the series.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 22:00:42 GMT
From: jb7m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon C. R. Bennett)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

Khan's war was the Eugenics war which was also the war of Col Green
which was followed by the atomics war.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 00:05:10 GMT
From: g-humphr@gumby.wisc.edu (Bill Humphries)
Subject: In which Info flames the writers

I wonder if it might be a good idea to print out the reactions here
and send them to Paramount?

Anyway:
1) "Boy, isn't the new Enterprise a neat-looking ship!"  Yes.  And I
loved the computer graphics, and the interiors, ect.  But the plot
was contorted for the sake of technical exposition.  Example, First
Officer looking for Lt. Data (change the name) gets happy talk from
some yeoman that sounded like the stuff models babble at a trade
show.  Remember, saying "The door dilated" can carry as much or more
information.

2) "Gee, wasn't that Alexis Carrington in the Galley."  A far more
reprehensible crime is on the verge of perpetration.  Bed hopping
characters.  I'm no moralist.  I'd even say that maybe a slight
focus on one ship board romance might be okay if done in moderation.
However. This here is SF, if I want to see bad tv suckface, I'll
watch _Dynasty_.  But it looks like we're going to be up to the high
water mark on romance.  The first officer and the telepath, the
captain and the chief surgeon, Lt. Pinochio/Tin Man/Data and the
Ship's mainframe?

3) "I sense extreme displeasure, a chainsaw and the number six."  I
could think of all sorts of horrible non-Trekkie things to say about
this woman.  But I won't if the writers shut her up and tone her
down.  Or else, "I sense extreme hatred, coming for us!
[moanwimper]" "That's just Harlan Elison, and he's after you.  Not
us."

What can I say in favor of the show?
The effects are beautiful.

There are possiblities, especialy in reference to comments about
Burton and the Klingon's characters a few articles back.

We can accept more things on TV these days, they can explore some
topics that would have been taboo on the original.

There is a cadre of good tallent to write for this show: Bear,
George R.R. Martin, Pat Cadigan, Bruce Sterling, John Shirley among
others.

Don't mess it up.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 07:13:04 GMT
From: leonard@qiclab.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee) writes:
>I guess I don't understand the basic premise of carrying families
>on board.  Is the Enterprise no longer a front-line battleship?
>How could it possibly be one with this baggage?  And why carry them
>along?  Are they going so far away from civilization?

The Enterprise has _never_ been a front-line warship! It is an
exploration vessel. And they are hauling along the families because
they plan on being out there for 10 years. And the policy is a new
one.

>This was the single most disappointing part of the premiere.  I
>hated this type of script in the original Star Trek, and I hate it
>more when I see that _that's actually what they meant to do_ (I
>always thought it was some kind of mistake, or a budget problem).
>I missed the credit - who wrote this thing, anyway?

Gene Roddenberry wrote it. And I suspect that the idea was to show
that _this_ time they are going to pay more than lip service to the
Prime Directive.  (the _unamimous_ opinion of everyone I've talked
to is that James T. Kirk would have blown it royally in this
situation!)

>It does seem a poor idea to show everyone acting out of character
>when they haven't even established their characters yet.

Sorry, the idea in both The Naked Time and in The Naked Now was that
they _weren't_ acting out of character. Rather they were acting the
way they wish they could. Gives you real insight into the character.

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!qiclab!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 16:08:48 GMT
From: philj@tekig5.tek.com (Phil Jansen)
Subject: ST:TNG

I really like the new bridge, but it needs a couple coffee tables
and some magazines.

At least this captain Acts like a Captain!  Stays on board.  I don't
like him, but that's just my personality not liking his.

The cameo was unnecessary.  SPOILER when he said "this ship will
always bring you home" I thought 'unless you pull Security duty' END
SPOILER.

We'll see.  At least it's better than the lobotomized season of Max
Headroom.  (oh no! the flames of Hell approaching!)

Phil Jansen
philj@tekig5

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 03:48:34 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (M S Schiffer)
Subject: Stasis Fields (was Re: Star Trek transporters - how they
Subject: (can't) work)

roger@homxb.UUCP (R.TAIT) writes:
>dml@NADC.ARPA writes:
>> want to keep, since nothing can harm something in stasis.  For
>> example, you could ring the Enterprise with stasis fields.  Any
>> object trying to hit the ship would then have to go through the
>> fields -- but nothing can go through the fields, since time has
>> stopped within the fields.
>
>Enclosing your ship in a stasis field won't do anything but turn
>you into a sitting duck.  If you've enclosed your starship in a
>stasis field for protection, someone else has to get you out.  If
>they're hostile (I'd call this a pretty good bet), they have
>infinitely more time to prepare for the opening of the field than
>you do. Your only chance of survival is to prepare to throw
>everything you have at anyone outside the field BEFORE you go hide.
>If you hit anything, it's because you're a lucky shot, and if
>you've been surrounded by friendly forces, they won't appreciate it
>much.

It seemed to me that the idea was to _ring_ the ship with stasis
fields, i.e. to have an outer hull (held in place by tractor beams)
or to launch a sort of jigsaw puzzle defense, then turn on the
stasis field on that outer surface, leaving the starship's crew
alert and able to take action.  You would probably leave small
openings for maneuvering jets, sensors and the like, while most of
the ship would be more impervious than a General Products hull.  It
wouldn't be a perfect defense, but it would be more effective than
Enterprise-style deflector screens alone.  Note that Vinge's bobbles
wouldn't work this way very well, since they must be spherical and
decay after a somewhat certain time (allowing for quantum effects).
A bobble could only be used as a last ditch emergency defense, as
in, "This is the starship _Enterprise_.  We have lost warp engines,
main phaser banks, and are drifting in the Romulan Neutral Zone.
After this message is transmitted we will engage a twenty year
bobble.  We hope the Federation will succeed in rescuing us at the
end of that time period.  Message ends."  (Use Code 2, lieutenant.)
The Romulans, being unable to do anything with the bloody silver
ball for two decades, might well trade it back to the Federation for
concessions, a few hundred prisoners, or whatever an embobbled
_Constitution_ or _Galaxy_ (depending on which _Enterprise_ of
course) class starship is worth to them.

M S Schiffer

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 06:01:36 GMT
From: weaver@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Weaver)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

alexande@gumby.wisc.edu (Michael Alexander) writes:
>One idea I have heard on the subject is comparing space to a piece
>of paper

Sounds strangely familiar to the space/time bending concept by the
worms in Dune.  (I am no expert by any means, but hit me at 1:30 in
the morning.)  Didn't the nasty little critters just kinda snort the
spice, freak out and send them and those in the immediate vicinity
to wherever the spice-providers wanted to go?

Andrew Weaver
COB Computing Services
1775 College Rd.
Cols,. OH 43210
UUCP: ...!cbosgd!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!weaver
ARPA: weaver@ohio-state.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 16:07:06 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG   (spoilers)

I don't think anyone ahas mentioned this yet, so I thought that I'd
jump in with it..

"To boldly go where no one has gone before"

Encounter at Farpoint, right?  Farpoint is (correct me if I'm wrong)
the farthest point out in the known galaxy.  ST:TNG seems likely to
be a series that will be exploring the unknown galaxy beyond this
Farpoint station.

So, enter "Q" to test these humans to make sure that they are not a
barbaric race out to rampage and conquer the vast beyond.  Could
this first adventure be nothing more?  It seems to me that the new
enterprise and it's crew have passed the test and are now free to
explore the beyond.

Q was instrumental in setting up all of the conditions at Farpoint,
from the injuring of the "jellyfish" unto it's re-vitalization.  Q
undoubtedly was in control of the whole situation.  He wouldn't
leave "random" elements interfering with his "test" of the humans.

(okay, that was my .02 cents worth!)

Bob Pietkivitch
ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 18:13:00 GMT
From: sl131089@silver.bacs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: ST:TNG "Encounter at Farpoint"

Uhg! On a -4 to +4 system I would give ST-TNG about a -2!

The plots were Roddenberry rehashes of the worst 3rd season
episodes. THe characters were wooden. The plot and story flaws came
and went at warp speed.  It was only entertaining in an entirely
unintentional way.

About it being the best SF show on TV; well, the episodes of Max
Headroom I saw were much better.

TNG contained SO much unnecessary footage it wasn't even funny! It
made the 1st Star Trek movie look tautly edited!!!

Roddenberry CANNOT write! D.C. Fontana CANNOT write!! Execute them
immediately!  If the series is to have any chance, it need REAL
writers! And chuck the psychic and the little kid. Tell the android
to loosen up. I'm sorry, but if they can make the android do all
that he did, they could make him so he's not so stiff and pale.
Sheesh.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #439
Date:  8 Oct 87 0954-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #439
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Oct 87 0954-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #439
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 8 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 439

Today's Topics:

           Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & Moorcock (3 msgs) &
                   Van Vogt (5 msgs) & When Worlds Collide

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 20:08:58 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!mbrown@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Brown)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

weaver@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Weaver) says:
> Sounds strangely familiar to the space/time bending concept by the
> worms in Dune.  (I am no expert by any means, but hit me at 1:30
> in the morning.)  Didn't the nasty little critters just kinda
> snort the spice, freak out and send them and those in the
> immediate vicinity to wherever the spice-providers wanted to go?

Only in the movie.  My impression from the book was that the Guild
ships somehow travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably FTL)
and the Guild navigators were prescient and used this ability to
choose their course (e.g. that course will cause a collision, while
this one is safe).  Since no mention of time is made, somehow they
are avoiding the effects of relativity.

Mike Brown
Department of Computer Science
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29634-1906
(803)656-2838
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!mbrown
Internet: mbrown@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 03:46:21 GMT
From: jb7m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon C. R. Bennett)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

> My impression from the book was that the Guild ships somehow
>travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably FTL)

They travel at effectively FTL they way that they move is by folding
space so that where they are and where they want to be are the same
place and then unfolding space to arive at their destination.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 05:09:28 GMT
From: hin9@sphinx.uchicago.edu
Subject: Michael Moorcock, the Eternal Something

   Hi folks.  Today I'd like to pay tribute to one of the most
pastiched- from authors around - Mike Moorcock.  Now, Moorcock has
been known to rip off most major myth cycles himself.  However,
nobody seems to notice when somebody steals something from him.
   Now, I'm not talking about the Jerry Cornelius stories in The
Nature of the Catastrophe and elsewhere, since that was above-board.
I'm talking about wholesale uncredited pastiches.  In fact, one such
story is being discussed right now on this very board.

   The Chronicles of Amber.

   Consider the evidence.  The Hero is named - Corwin, which is
suspiciously close to Corum.  He is in love with his sister.  His
Arch-Enemy is his brother Eric, as in Elric.  He is a member of a
non-human but very human-like species.  He is royalty.  He has a
nifty sword, Yggthrmithrandircheeseslicer (or something like that).
He fights against the forces of the Courts of Chaos.  He nearly
destroys the universe, saves it, etc., etc.
   And it's not like Zelazny wasn't familiar with Moorcock, since he
did appear in New Worlds, which Moorcock edited.
   I'm not ragging on the books, mind you.  I just like to pick up
on in-jokes.
   Of course, the new Amber books aren't Moorcockian.  In the new
ones, Zelazny's mutating the Arthurian sagas.  (Merlin, the blue
cave, etc.)

   I know of a couple other Moorcock bits that have been
stolen/creatively borrowed.
   One, of course, is how the whole Law/Chaos and Multiverse
concepts have been absorbed into most trashy fantasy novels.
   Another is the character Magik in the comic The New Mutants,
whose life story has Moorcock references at every turn.  However,
I'll save that analysis for rec.arts.comics.

   So, anyone out there know of any other Moorcock-influenced things
out there?

...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!hin9

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 12:24:39 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock, the Eternal Something

hin9@sphinx.UUCP writes:
>Consider the evidence.  The Hero is named - Corwin, which is
>suspiciously close to Corum.

NINE PRINCES came before the Book of Swords.

>He is in love with his sister.

Huh?

>He is a member of a non-human but very human-like species.

I see little or nothing about the Amberites which is outside human
parameters.

>He is royalty.  He has a nifty sword,

Things which have never been used before Moorcock? Come on!

>     One, of course, is how the whole Law/Chaos and Multiverse
>concepts have

No! This was introduced by Poul Anderson in THREE HEARTS AND THREE
LIONS and its sequels.

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 00:14:16 GMT
From: hin9@sphinx.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock, the Eternal Something

wlinden@dasys1.UUCP (William Linden) writes:
>hin9@sphinx.UUCP writes:
>>     Consider the evidence.  The Hero is named - Corwin, which is
>>suspiciously close to Corum.
>NINE PRINCES came before the Book of Swords.

   But did it come before the separate books?  Even if it did, Corum
(and others) are mentioned as early as 1962, in The Eternal
Champion.

>>He is in love with his sister.
>Huh?

   This particularly nasty triangle of hating the brother and loving
the sister is from the Cornelius Chronicles, wherein Jerry hates his
brother and spends most of his time pursuing his sister Catherine.
However, you may know the triangle better in the form of Elric
hating his cousin Yrrkoon and loving his cousin (and Yrrkoon's
sister) Cymoril.
   In the Amber books, the fact that Corwin loves Deirdre is
mentioned in passing about twice.  If you blinked, you'd miss it.
"If only Dad had permitted marrying inside the family..."-vague
paraphrase.

>>He is a member of a non-human but very human-like species.
>I see little or nothing about the Amberites which is outside human
>parameters.

   Oh, come on!  Corwin and Random picked up their car once and
carried it a good distance.  Corwin had his eyes burned out with hot
pokers and they regenerated.  And they're all immortal.  Try again.

>>He is royalty.  He has a nifty sword,
>Things which have never been used before Moorcock? Come on!

   True, just circumstancial evidence.

>>     One, of course, is how the whole Law/Chaos and Multiverse
>>concepts have
>No! This was introduced by Poul Anderson in THREE HEARTS AND THREE
>LIONS and its sequels.

   This I won't argue, since I do now seem to remember Moorcock
dedicating one of his early books to Anderson for just that reason.

   What really clinched the Corwin-Eternal Champion bit for me were
the names and the Corwin-Eric-Deidre triange.  The rest of it is
just window dressing.  On the other hand, it's probably a sad
commentary on how inbred modern fantasy has become; that similar
settings and plot devices seem worlds apart.

   And finally, keep in mind how many of Zelazny's works are
pastiches, adaptations, sendups or tributes:

   Lord of Light
   Creatures of Light and Darkness
   Roadmarks (practically everything in this book)
   The Second Chronicles of Amber (or whatever they're called)
   Many (well, some) of his short stories.

   Mind you, I loved the books.

...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!hin9

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 87 18:08:00 PDT
From: fusci%cogmk.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Ray Fusci OGO1-2/W08
From: dtn-276-8158)
Subject: Adeledicnander

lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK) writes:
>bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) writes:
>>An A.E. Van Vogt story, "Far Centaurus", had intelligent suns and
>>a "force" to drive them, the "delidicnader" force or something (I
>>know I haven't got it right).

Adeledicnander.  "[electrons] have a psychology."

>Wasn't "Far Centaurus" the story about the crew of a
>slower-then-light exploration ship sent to Alpha Centaur? The crew
>(of about 4) slept most of the way, though they were awakened at
>several points during the journey.  Only one was awake at once. 1
>or

There was indeed a short story such as you described.  It was also
incorporated into a novel: A. E. Van Vogt, _Quest_for_the_Future_,
Ace, 1972, ISBN (approx.) 0-441-69700-?.  (Chapter 12 starts where
the short starts.)

Adeledicnander was analagous to the rocket principle, in that "Any
child of six could" explain it to you.

I don't remember seeing any intelligent suns in the short (can't
find it in my library).  There aren't any in the novel.

Ray Fusci
UUCP: ...!decwrl!scotch.dec.com!fusci
ARPA: fusci@scotch.dec.com

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 18:34:44 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: intelligent suns...

>Wasn't "Far Centaurus" the story about the crew of a
>slower-then-light exploration ship sent to Alpha Centaur? The crew
>(of about 4) slept most of the way, though they were awakened at
>several points during the journey.  Only one was awake at once. 1
>or 2 died en route, and the main character noticed a large
>explosion outside during one of his waking periods.  By the time
>they reached their destination, Earth had discovered an FTL drive
>and gotten there first, and they are greeted as archaic relics by
>the inhabitants. The explosion was some kind of tourist liner or
>something which came too close and got its drive messed up,
>destroying it.
>
>Is this "Far Centaurus" or something else?

Yes, that was it. But in the end, as they are getting assimilated,
abortively, into the culture of the time, they learn about
adeledicnander, the force that drives or communicates with, or
something, intelligent suns, and if this isn't a run-on sentence, I
don't know what is.

I read it in the recent _Analog_ freebie publication, something to
do with 6 stories from 6 decades of _Analog_. Got it as a
subscription perq.

Scott Bayes

------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 19:13:10 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) writes:
>An A.E. Van Vogt story, "Far Centaurus", had intelligent suns and
>a "force" to drive them, the "delidicnader" force or something (I
>know I haven't got it right).

The force I remember as being abidicnander, though I may be a little
off.  That's close, anyhow.

>Lousy story, a "gotcha" premise (the protagonists are too dumb to
>remember that progress, like shit, happens), really shaky science;
>the usual Van Vogt crap.

If you think it is obvious that there will eventually be fast
interstellar travel, and only stupid people would think otherwise, I
suggest you get hold of net.space archives from a year ago or so,
when the whole thing was widely debated.  Personally, I think it
*is* obvious that there will eventually be near-light-speed
interstellar travel (FTL is unlikely), but there are plenty of
intelligent people who disagree.

Van Vogt is known not for the soundness of his science, which is
non-existent, but for the daringness of his ideas, which is
considerable.  If you don't like it done that way, you won't like
his work.  Personally, while I usually like a sounder scientific
basis, I find Van Vogt's ideas more than sufficient to carry his
stories.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 87 07:24:42 GMT
From: uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Intelligent Suns

lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK) writes:
>bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) writes:
>>An A.E. Van Vogt story, "Far Centaurus", had intelligent suns and
>>a "force" to drive them, the "delidicnader" force or something (I
>>know I haven't got it right).
>
>Wasn't "Far Centaurus" the story about the crew of a
>slower-then-light exploration ship sent to Alpha Centauri?
>By the time they reached their destination, Earth had discovered an
>FTL drive and gotten there first, and they are greeted as archaic
>relics by the inhabitants.
>
>Is this "Far Centaurus" or something else?

I remember the story, but whether the title was "Far Centaurus"
escapes me.

The so-called "intelligent suns" in the story were actually
representatives of a phenomenon known as a "bachelor star".  These
stars, for reasons never satisfactorily explained, did not let
matter get within a certain distance of them.  Matter so audacious
as to go within that distance would be translated back along the
time axis by a certain quantum, and away from the star.  The guys in
the story, homesick for old times, use an FTL ship they have been
given to fly toward a bachelor star, and are thrown back into the
past, where they hide the ship for their own use, and are able to
return to Earth during their own original lifetimes, and listen to
their own broadcasts sent back from the original ship.

"Golly gee, Mr. Wizard!"

In this story they also had "intelligent" electrons.  The FTL drive
in the story is based somehow on this premise.

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada - Reno
malc@tahoe.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 19:39:20 GMT
From: bayes@hpfcrj.hp.com (Scott Bayes)
Subject: Re: intelligent suns...

>bayes@hpfcrj.HP.COM (Scott Bayes) writes:
>If you think it is obvious that there will eventually be fast
>interstellar travel, and only stupid people would think otherwise,
>I suggest you get hold of net.space archives from a year ago or so,
>when the whole thing was widely debated.  Personally, I think it
>*is* obvious that there will eventually be near-light-speed
>interstellar travel (FTL is unlikely), but there are plenty of
>intelligent people who disagree.

Sorry, I phrased that a little thoughtlessly.  I just don't happen
to like his stuff (though I remember one, _The House that Stood
Still_ or something, that I believe he wrote, that I quite liked),
and overstated my opinion.

Anyway, I believe it took them a lot longer to get to Centauri than
near-light-speed would take.  Something on the order of centuries.
So progress could still get latecomers there a lot sooner than they
did.  Really-near-light-speed is not needed; though how one builds a
nearly-near-light-speed drive is pretty obscure right now.

>Van Vogt is known not for the soundness of his science, which is
>non-existent, but for the daringness of his ideas, which is
>considerable.  If you don't like it done that way, you won't like
>his work.  Personally, while I usually like a sounder scientific
>basis, I find van Vogt's ideas more than sufficient to carry his
>stories.

The other thing is that I mostly not found his ideas to be very good
either.

But!!! This is all opinion in any case, so we maybe should just
agree to disagree. If we all agreed, there'd be nothing much to say
on the net.

Regards
Scott Bayes

P.S. Yours is one of the few responses I've seen to anything I've
posted lately. I thought I might be the target of a suppression
conspiracy :-)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 21:34:21 GMT
From: moss!inuxd!jody@RUTGERS.EDU (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: When Worlds Collide

From: John E. Lewis <LEWIS%GUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
> I am currently trying to locate a copy of "When Worlds Collide" by
> Wylie and Balmer. It is an old book but was re-issued a couple of
> years ago. None of the bookstores have a copy of it. Does anyone
> have any idea of how to go about getting a copy??? thanx...jl

If it was re-issued than perhaps it can be ordered.  However a used
book store is more likely to have it... at least that is the first
place I looked for it and found it.  Also there is a second book
called something like _After Worlds Collide_ (not sure of title or
author, but don't thing same author did both).  I liked it better,
at the time I was younger, because it showed a dead alien culture on
the planet.  It showed that the Earth was not the only planet that
suffered.

jody

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #440
Date: 12 Oct 87 0826-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #440
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Oct 87 0826-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #440
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 440

Today's Topics:

             Books - Story Question Answered (3 msgs) &
                     Heroes in Hell (3 msgs) &
                     Comments about Authors (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 87 18:23:20 GMT
From: gatech!decvax!chaos!uokmax!rmtodd@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Michael
From: Todd)
Subject: Re: Life in Space, continued...

elg@usl (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU says:
>> There was a story in Analog, sorry but I forget when or where,
>> about a society with a 1600s techology that attempts to invade
>> Earth,
>Hmm. Sounds like something by Simak. Something about huge pyramids,

Simak may well have written a story like the one you describe, but I
think the original poster was referring to a couple of stories in
Analog magazine a couple of years or so back.  I believe the stories
were by Harry Turtledove.  The titles were "Herbig-Haro" and "The
Road Not Taken".  "The Road Not Taken" appeared in a later issue of
Analog than "Herbig-Haro", even though "Herbig-Haro" takes place
much later than "The Road...".

***SPOILER WARNING***

The premise of the stories is that most of the races out there, when
they reached a technology level roughly corresponding to that of
16-17th century Earth, happened to make some experiments that led to
the discovery of contragravity and hyperdrive.  These races
immediately went out into the galaxy trying to conquer new
territory, and the constant wars of conquest and the effort that
went into their interstellar expansion meant that their societies
never developed much beyond the 17th-century level.  For some reason
Earth scientists never happened to stumble on the experiments that
led to hyperdrive, but instead continued on as they were.
Apparently hyperdrive and contragravity don't lend themselves to
technological spinoffs as does study of things like
electromagnetism.  (Just think of all the devices around that depend
on e-m fields.)  Anyway, when the Roxolani try to conquer Earth,
their landing forces are completely outclassed by our advanced
military technology.  And of course afterwards Earth gets from the
captured ships the secret of hyperdrive; Earth has both hyperdrive
and overwhelming technological superiority over the other galactic
races.
  "Herbig-Haro" takes place hundreds of years after TRNT (which
takes place in the early 21st century.)  The time period is some
centuries after the collapse of the Terran Empire, which dissolved
in civil war after its extremely rapid conquest of the other
galactic races.  I won't tell all about "Herbig-Haro" here, except
to say that they do find one other race out there besides us which
missed hyperdrive early on, with all the consequences that implies.
And, for the astronomy buffs out there, yes the title does refer to
a Herbig-Haro object which plays an important role in the plot.

Richard Todd
USSnail:820 Annie Court,Norman OK 73069
UUCP: {allegra!cbosgd|ihnp4}!occrsh!uokmax!rmtodd

------------------------------

Date: 4 October 1987 23:33:14 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Harry Turtledove (was Re:  Life in Space, continued . . .)

elg@usl (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU says:
>>There was a story in Analog, sorry but I forget when or where,
>>about a society with a 1600s techology that attempts to invade
>>Earth,
>
>Hmm. Sounds like something by Simak. Something about huge pyramids,
>and a religion which is dedicated to building these, with religious
>rituals for building them etc... and the rest of the civilization is
>similiar to Rome. I say Simak because it had a lot of religion in it
>(one of the human protagonists was a priests, one of the aliens was
>a member of a persecuted cult that looked an awful lot like
>Christianity, etc.), but I'm probably wrong.

I think the story is more recent than anything in _Analog_ by Simak
(although it's certainly possible that Simak did something along
these lines too).  It sounds like a story by Eric G. Iversion /
Harry Turtledove (are they both pseudonyms?) which appeared in the
last four years (that's how long I've subscribed to _Analog_).  I
don't have my library handy, but if anyone's really interested, I
can look it up.  By the way I don't like the more recent stories in
Turtledove's two alternate history series (one features 'sims',
near-human simians, in the Americas; the other in Rome): they
trivialize or over-simplify some great human achievements (e.g.,
vaccination and the theory of evolution).  (I did like some of the
initial stories in the 'sims' series.)  His 'Bilbeis IV' stories are
more interesting, although uneven in conception (floppy disks in a
civilization a few thousand years in the future?).  These feature a
inter-stellar civilization attempting to maintain a non-intervention
policy when they encounter and research intelligent species on other
planets.  The first(?)  of these stories, 'Bluff' (at least, I think
it's in this series), gives a fascinating speculation on the
emergence of consciousness.  In a later story, one of the
researchers does intervene, saving the life of a wise ruler on the
planet.  The intervention actually succeeds excessively: Queen
Sabium becomes immortal.  His recent serial _Report on Bilbeis IV_
takes place around a thousand years later when the result of this
intervention is discovered.

Paul R. Pudaite

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 87 11:31:19 EDT
From: wyzansky@nadc.arpa (H. Wyzansky)
Subject: Story Query Answered

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU says:
> There was a story in Analog, sorry but I forget when or where,
> about a society with a 1600s techology that attempts to invade
> Earth,

The story is "The Road Not Taken" by Harry Turtledove.

*****SPOILER*****

The premise is that the hyperdrive and contragravity are incredibly
easy to invent and are usually found when a civilization is just
beginning to think about the universe and how it works, i.e.
corresponding to roughly Renaissance level technology.  From then
on, the thrust of invention and increasing technological
sophistication goes into perfecting the hyperdrive and the other
technology, weaponry, etc. remains at the lower level with only
minor improvements being made at long intervals.  On Earth, for some
reason the hyperdrive was overlooked and as a result, we branched
out into things like electricity, atomic power, etc., including, to
the aliens' dismay, tanks, jet fighters, machine guns and self
propelled artillery.  Those poor conquering aliens never knew what
hit them.

The story is also in Pournelle's "There Will Be War, Vol. 5"

For a story on a similar theme, see "Pandora's Planet" by Chris Anvil.

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 87 14:43 MST
From: "Ronald B. Harvey" <Harvey%pco@BCO-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

Can anybody come up with a definitive list of the order in which to
read all of the collections and novels?  As I recall, _Heroes in
Hell_ is first, but after that...

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 02:24:09 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

>Can anybody come up with a definitive list of the order in which to
>read all of the collections and novels?  As I recall, _Heroes in
>Hell_ is first, but after that...

It goes:

   Anthologies:

   Heroes in Hell (includes Hugo winning "Gilgamesh
      in the Outback" by Silverberg.
   Rebels in Hell
   Crusaders in Hell

   Novels:

   Gates of Hell (Cherryh & Morris)
   Kings in Hell (Morris)
   Legions of Hell (Cherryh)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 14:02:41 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

I'm so glad someone posted it as Foobar in Hell.

I read the first book, and looked forward to seeing a concluding
book.  Now, however, I see shit being churned out a phenomenal rate.
This reminds me of Foster's Spellsinger, from an author parallel,
and Asprin's Thieves world, from a series parallel.

Oh,  well.....

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 20:17:41 GMT
From: eppstein@garfield.columbia.edu (David Eppstein)
Subject: Anthony & Chalker & Feist

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
> I must say, I also tire of the 'stereotyped character syndrome".
> In a fantasy world setting, there are only so many 'types' to
> choose from.  After so many years and so many stories/books, what
> do you expect?

I expect people, not character types.  This is why I like, say,
Blaylock, but dislike, say, Feist.

To forestall possible misunderstanding: by people I also include
elves, amberites, and so on.  But they must be real.

David Eppstein
eppstein@cs.columbia.edu
Columbia U. Computer Science Dept.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 00:02:42 GMT
From: perry@intelob.intel.com
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>I've been reading this board for a while now and I'm starting to
>wonder if there is anyone out there that reads anything other than
>Bear/Card/RH/ Niven/Zelazney???  Not that I've anything against
>these authors, in fact, they are among my favorites, but what about
>some of the other writers out there?  Myself, I enjoy Piers
>Anthony, Jack Chalker, David Brin, Raymond E. Fiest and James P.
>Blaylock, to name a few.

I'm sure there are a lot of people around who share (part of) your
tastes.  They just aren't as outspoken as others. Don't forget, the
NET discussions tend to be mostly about recently published stuff,
with some old-grudge flame wars thrown in for fun.

Anyway, I'll bite. Let's talk about Piers Anthony and Jack Chalker.

For some reason, hating Piers Anthony seems to be Required Posture
for some Serious Readers around. The same people tend to ignore Jack
Chalker (mumbling `cheap trash', no doubt). Ah well. I'm afraid both
authors are currently heavily afflicted with a peculiar degenerative
disease commonly called `commercial success'. Both have found their
nice, cushy niche where a stock of fans buy their books (almost) no
matter what. In all fairness, if I had struggled for success all my
(writing) life, I'd think twice too before I left a winning track.
It's quite a shame, though. Yet, even though we deplore a writer's
current slump, we may still appreciate what (s)he wrote earlier.
(This, BTW, also pretty much sums up my position on Heinlein.)

Piers Anthony has a quite pervading theme going through his entire
writing (ignoring the later Xanth novels), and that is *personal
honor*. Consider the early Xanth books, the original Cluster
Trilogy, the Apprentice Adept or the Tarot Trilogy. Each time, we
have a protagonist who tries to do the *honorable thing* in rather
trying (and rather outlandish) circumstances. If you believe (like I
do) that *personal honor* is an important thing, a thing worth
thinking (and writing) about, you'll like them. (They are generally
well written, too.) I do like them. Nice, good, enjoyable reads,
though I wouldn't get overly excited over them.

Anthony's recent writing is, I understand, well, uneven. About half
a year ago, I made the serious mistake of reading *Bio of a Space
Tyrant*. I am still suffering the effects. Micro-flame ON: This
series is one of the worst hack-jobs I have ever read. The only
explanation I can think of is that a deadline ran over all five
books. Don't pay for it. Don't read it unless you're an Anthony
completist. Micro-flame OFF. Anyway, since then I am in
Ignore-Anthony mode. I still enjoy his early writing but I refuse to
read anything new from him. Maybe one day I'll recover. I hope.

Jack Chalker seems obsessed with human transformation (as in
man-turns-into-XYZ) and manipulation. It's all he ever writes about
(as far as I can see, anyway). In this sense, his writing is
limited. Yet, the area left is pretty large and he has written some
very good stories in it. Technically I guess he writes Phantasy, but
inside the initial proposition his stories are pretty consistent so
even a hardcore SF fan should be able to accept them. I really like
his *Well World* series - if you (anybody) haven't read it, you
should. In some ways, it's one of my best reads so far (Flames ->
Mail, please). The *Four Lords of the Diamond* and the *Flux And
Anchor* series have their good moments, too, though he starts to
recycle ideas - see above.

One thing about Jack Chalker: his stories sometimes explore the
extremes of human relationships, which may offend some readers. In
his early works, like the Well World series, this fit naturally into
the story. Lately, he increasingly seems to rely - how should I say
it - on the potential reader's sexual interest. Consider parts of
*Flux And Anchor* - not that it weren't defensible, but it somehow
feels gratuitous to me, not really motivated by the story itself. Or
maybe my standards are changing. I don't know.

Raymond Feist: I like him (so far). Unlike other people on the net,
I still like Quests if they are done well, and I think that his
*Magician* universe is one of the better Phantasy words lately. At
least here we have people who have to bend to circumstance,
compromise with life, rather than winning it all with a stroke of
magic, genius or luck; and we have adversaries who are motivated by
more than their Evil Nature. I'm looking forward to more from him.

OK, now that we are talking about `undiscussed' authors, let me wave
a flag for one of my favorites (a bonus for those who're still
around :-):

Has anybody around read the *Exiles* (or *Pliocene*) cycle by Julian
May? In my opinion, these four books make one of the best stories I
have ever read, as far as overall picture, mood, story line,
suspense, depiction of ESP and much else are concerned. Highly
recommended. ****+ on the Chuqish scale.  (That's as far as my neck
will come out. Now who has the axe? :-)

Have a nice whatever

Peter Kiehtreiber
perry@inteloa.intel.com
...!tektronix!ogcvax!omepd!inteloa!perry
...!verdix!omepd!inteloa!perry

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 02:58:18 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

As I hate reading a lot of included text, let me just state that
this is in rebuttle to Tim Iverson's(SP?) rebuttle to my original
message - far too much stuff to quote...

I would like to hear of a fantasy story where the theme good vs.
evil is not present.  Christian good or otherwise (good is farely
(not completely) standard so I don't quite understand the emphasis,
but this does seem in tone with other of your messages I've seen, so
enough comment).

Theme and plot are interelated concepts.  I am talking about books,
not semantics.  There is great diversity in Anthonies books, even if
there is also similarity.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

I blindly subscribe to my own ethic, not any other.  It is not based
on, but has similarities to the christian ethic, but also to many
others and parts of it to non other that I know of.  I think for
myself, thank you.  And I keep an open mind.

As for cardboard characters that are slow to learn...you'd best read
more of works.  This is hardly the correct picture, though he does
use this device in many, but not all, of his books.  Name me some
writers whose books (again not all, just most) don't share common
devices - yeegads, Chalker does this to an extreme, but I still like
the books.

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #441
Date: 12 Oct 87 0840-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #441
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Oct 87 0840-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #441
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 441

Today's Topics:

               Books - Card (7 msgs) & Niven (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 00:09:33 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60RC)
Subject: Orson Scott Card

PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET writes:
>I have to concur with Dan Tilque: _Hart's Hope_ is 'the best thing
>he has written yet.'  But unlike Dan, I don't think I can recommend
>_Hart's Hope_ to everyone.  From personal experience, I've found
>that people either think it's substandard Card (the majority,
>actually) or the best thing he's done.

Not only do I think _Hart's Hope_ is the best he's written yet, I
think it's one of the all time best fantasy novels.  However, I also
agree with you that it's not for everyone, and my recommendation
should be ascribed to overenthusiasm.  (You're comments about
foreshadowing are astute.)

Some others have mentioned the Mormon influences in other OSC books.
Can anyone who is familiar with Mormon theology describe the
influences in _Hart's Hope_?  If there are none, I would be very
surprised.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 12:59:05 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Some others have mentioned the Mormon influences in other OSC
>books.  Can anyone who is familiar with Mormon theology describe
>the influences in _Hart's Hope_?  If there are none, I would be
>very surprised.

I have been thinking about this, but I find it hard to detect LDS
influence in such a very pagan story line. (The "God'smen" are for
the most part depicted unfavorably.) The emphasis on the power of
blood might conceivably be connected with the old, and
now-played-down belief in "blood atonement". A bodily God is part of
LDS theology; but in the novel the point is that God is NOT supposed
to have a body (and therefore it is an unnatural state of affairs
which Orem must set right.)

Will Linden
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{sun,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 01:53:36 GMT
From: c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu (Jon Yamato)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

Can anyone elucidate the publication history of _The Worthing
Chronicles_ and its related books?  I know I've seen bits of that
storyline here and there, but don't have the resources to track them
down.
     Are there legal guidelines, pitfalls, etc. in publishing a book
containing substantial material from your previous books?

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 20:56:57 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Some others have mentioned the Mormon influences in other OSC
>books.  Can anyone who is familiar with Mormon theology describe
>the influences in _Hart's Hope_?  If there are none, I would be
>very surprised.

It's been a while since I read this fantasy, so I'd have to read it
again, looking for references.  I seem to recall the theme of the
"dying & reborn king" (the hart?) which figures prominently in the
theology of the Mormon theologian Hugh Nibley, who relates it to
ancient sources such as the legend of Osiris.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 20:55:40 GMT
From: wales@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Mormon themes in SF (was Re: Orson Scott Card)

dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>Some others have mentioned the Mormon influences in other OSC
>books.  Can anyone who is familiar with Mormon theology describe
>the influences in _Hart's Hope_?  If there are none, I would be
>very surprised.

I'm a Mormon, and I think I could qualify as being "familiar with
Mormon theology".  As an adult convert to the Mormon religion, I
believe I'm also conscious of which concepts are unique to my faith.

I read _Hart's Hope_ about four years ago.  I didn't particularly
enjoy it -- primarily because portions of it were much too brutal
for my tastes.  (For example, the public ritual where the conquering
hero con- summated his marriage to the captive princess.)  However,
I did read the entire book.

I don't recall anything in _Hart's Hope_ that struck me as
reminiscent of Mormon theology.  Of course, as I said, it's been
about four years since I read the book, but I think I would remember
any significant tie-ins to uniquely Mormon beliefs in the plot if I
had noticed them.

If *I* were to write a work of science/speculative/fantasy fiction
that incorporated key Mormon religious concepts without being
blatant about it, I would probably use things like the following:

 a. Someone is put to a test, in which a large portion of his
    memory has been "wiped" or "blocked", but his essential
    character traits are still intact.  (Mormons believe in a
    "pre-earth existence", in which we lived with God until we were
    ready for a physical birth here on Earth; our memories of this
    period have been suppressed so that we can learn to live by
    faith.)

    There was a novel some years ago, as I recall, called _The
    Promise_.  (I've forgotten the author, and I have no idea
    whether he's a Mormon or not.)  I didn't read it, but as I
    recall it was about a young woman whose family disapproved of
    her fiance'; she was badly injured in an auto accident (did the
    family arrange it?), and they agreed to pay for her plastic
    surgery on the condition that she promise to have nothing
    further to do with him.  He didn't know who she was any more
    (since she now looked completely different -- and I seem to
    recall he had been told she had died in the accident anyway),
    but he eventually fell in love with her all over again because
    of the kind of person she was.  (My apologies if I've garbled
    the plot; if someone out there has read this book, please feel
    free to correct my misconceptions.)  Something like this could
    easily have been written by a Mormon.

 b. Someone is faced with a choice between either remaining in an
    idyllic environment, with no threats (but also no possibility
    for growth), or else leaving for a dangerous and uncertain
    existence (which also allows for personal growth and fulfillment
    beyond com- prehension).  (The Mormon teachings on the "fall of
    man" differ drastically from the traditional Christian view, in
    that we believe that it was essential for Adam and Eve to choose
    to leave the Garden of Eden -- and, indeed, that God *wanted*
    them to do so in order that they might achieve their greatest
    potential.)

 c. A leader goes into seclusion, but arranges to have his life
    somehow prolonged so that he can continue to guide his people
    from the side- lines.  (Mormons believe that some people have
    been "translated" -- i.e., made semi-immortal -- in order to
    further God's work.  The list of such people includes Moses,
    Elijah, the Apostle John, and also three of the apostles whom
    Christ chose in the Americas when He visited His followers here
    after His resurrection [as recorded in the Book of Mormon].)

    Alternatively, a leader somehow manages to come back as an
    "angel" or "spirit" after he dies, in order to assist or counsel
    those whom he has left behind.  (Mormons, unlike many other
    Christians, believe that "angels" are people like you and I, but
    in a different stage of our eternal existence -- generally those
    who have died but have not yet been resurrected.)

There are other things I might try to work into a story, but the
above are the best I could come up with in the limited time
available for writing this article.  (After all, I have *real* work
to do too! :-})

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024-1596
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 13:54:26 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

Gordon E. Banks writes:
>dant@tekla.UUCP (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>Some others have mentioned the Mormon influences in other OSC
>>books.  Can anyone who is familiar with Mormon theology describe
>>the influences in _Hart's Hope_?  If there are none, I would be
>>very surprised.
>
>It's been a while since I read this fantasy, so I'd have to read it
>again, looking for references.  I seem to recall the theme of the
>"dying & reborn king" (the hart?) which figures prominently in the
>theology of the Mormon theologian Hugh Nibley, who relates it to
>ancient sources such as the legend of Osiris.

The "dying and reborn king" is a fundamental theme in almost all
early mythologies.  Osiris is one example; primitive cultures have
plenty, and there are obvious parallels to Christian doctrine.

Many primitive cultures regarded their kings as "gods", and
performed a god-sacrifice if times got hard or the king got old.
The king was killed in a public ceremony, but was immediately
"reborn" in the person of a new king.  The Egyptians were the first
people to get tired of this (or perhaps more accurately, the
Pharaohs were the first people to think of a way around this): on a
regular basis (each year?), the Pharaoh would enact his own "death",
withdrawing into an inner sanctuary of a temple for a few days, then
emerging with a story of how he had descended into the world and
death and was reborn.  For a good description of the evolution of
the god-death theme, see "Primitive Mythology" by Joseph Campbell
(part of a series of anthropological/psychological books
collectively called "The Masks of God").

By the way, this stuff always cries out to me as evidence of human
evolution.  A number of primates live in bands led by a single male.
Other males occasionally challenge the leader to battles for
dominance, and if they win, the band must immediately transfer its
allegiance to the victor.  (The loser may or may not live, and may
or may not be allowed to remain with the band.)  In such a
situation, the primates would have instincts/ conditioning that
could be represented as "the old king dies, but is reborn in a new
king who must be obeyed".  Humans find the image of the dead/reborn
king to be powerful precisely because of the psychological vestiges
of those old primate instincts.

Yuck, I'm starting to sound preachy!

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 19:56:42 GMT
From: wales@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>It's been a while since I read [_Hart's Hope_], so I'd have to read
>it again, looking for references.  I seem to recall the theme of
>the "dying & reborn king" (the hart?) which figures prominently in
>the theology of the Mormon theologian Hugh Nibley, who relates it
>to ancient sources such as the legend of Osiris.

A minor correction/elaboration, if I may.

Hugh Nibley is primarily a scholar of the ancient Near East.  He has
devoted much of his energy to ferreting out parallels between Mormon
theological roots and ancient Near Eastern religious/cultural
material.

Nibley's connections between Mormon theology and "ancient sources
such as the legend of Osiris" are best understood if you keep in
mind that we Mormons believe that God has revealed Himself to many
peoples at differ- ent times during history.  His message (according
to our belief) has always been the same, but it has always become
corrupted after a time as people have forsaken their ongoing,
continuous relationship with Him and proceeded to embellish His
Gospel with their own ideas.

If (as is quite conceivable) Card's "dying and reborn king"
symbolism is related to Mormon theology, I would rather suggest that
Card is drawing an analogy between the Hart and Jesus Christ.  This
kind of parallel is much more likely to come to the mind of a Mormon
writer than something involving ancient Near Eastern myths.  As for
the Osiris legend, my recollection is that Nibley has suggested
parallels between Osiris and Christ -- again, this makes sense if
you assume (as we do) that the Christian Gospel has been around
since the beginning of human history, but has been lost/garbled
through time by most civilizations, and has thus had to be
periodically restored through divine intervention.

Again, as I mentioned in my previous posting on this subject, it has
been a very long time since I read _Hart's Hope_.  Please forgive me
if my lack of intimate familiarity with this book is showing.

Also, lest any be concerned, my purpose here is not so much to
preach my religion as to try and explain how said religion might
manifest itself in the works of a Mormon writer (such as Card).

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024-1596
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 01:41:38 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (M S Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Louis Wu story

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) writes:
>For Louis Wu to be related to Shaeffer is quite interesting for two
>related reasons.  Beo can't have children, his I.Q. isn't high
>enough in "Known" earth.  Louis is an incredible genius.  Related
>to this fact is that Louis sires a child for Beowulf and his wife.
>This would put the "son" Louis in an interesting ethical position
>that Niven wouldn't want to touch with a ten A.U, pole.

Ahem.

I believe you have confused _Louis_ Wu with _Carlos_ Wu.  Carlos Wu
had an unlimited fertility license, was an "incredible genius", etc.
In "The Borderland of Sol" Schaeffer and Carlos discuss the "favor"
the latter did for Bey, who had none of the qualifications for a
fertility license. (IQ was only one possibility).  In fact, the
hypothesis that Schaeffer is Louis Wu's (adoptive) father derives
from this story.  Bey asks about the children, "Louis" and a female
name I cannot remember.  It's plausible, but there are problems:

1) In _Ringworld_ Louis Wu is introduced to the _Long Shot_, the
Quantum II hyperdrive ship which carried Beowulf Schaeffer to the
Galactic Core (unless you believe "Down In Flames"...)  In any case,
I _believe_ (not having a copy in front of me) that Nessus refers to
Beowuld Schaeffer as pilot of the ship on the original ship.  Louis
shows no special reaction, not even "Oh yeah, he's my father."  Even
if Nessus didn't mention it, one supposes that sometime in Louis'
childhood dear old Dad would have told him about the trip on which
he made the most important discovery in the history of Known Space.
Since there was only one Quantum II ship in that area of the galaxy,
if Louis was Bey's son one would expect some indication of the fact.

2) Hundreds or thousands of children were sired by Carlos Wu.  Isn't
it likely that there would be some duplication of names, especially
a reasonably common one like Louis?  If Louis were Bey's son,
wouldn't he have Bey's last name, or Sharra's (Schaeffer's wife) to
distinguish him from all the other children sired by Carlos Wu for
other people?  Wu is hardly an uncommon last name in any case.
Granted, Louis is probably related to Carlos, but not necessarily by
way of Beowulf Schaeffer.

M S Schiffer

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 22:59:47 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Integral Trees and Smoke Rings

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>I find the argument over whether [Smoke Ring]'s better than
>Integral Trees amusing.  Niven says it all started as one book, but
>... he ...  split it down the middle.

That may be part of what's wrong with The Integral Trees.  It's all
setup, and he doesn't get to the really interesting part of the plot
line.

Just because something was written as single work doesn't mean that
some parts can't be significantly better than others.  To take the
most extreme example I know of, Frank Herbert considered Dune, Dune
Messiah, and Children of Dune all one story, and worked on all of
them simultaneously.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #442
Date: 12 Oct 87 0900-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #442
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Oct 87 0900-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #442
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SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 442

Today's Topics:

            Miscellaneous - Colonies in Space (5 msgs) &
                            How Things Work & 
                            Specialty Bookshops &
                            Conventions (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 21:35:18 GMT
From: elg@usl (Eric Lee Green)
Subject: Colonys & technology

Consider this scenario:

A relativistic (?) colonization ship arrives at a target planet.

On board this ship are thousands of widgets, each widget containing
a copy of the complete Library of Congress and Patent Office (or
futuristic equivalents :-), and each requiring absolutely no kind of
servicing or technological support (e.g. lay it out in the sun when
it wants power, I guess, no moving parts, centuries-long life
span....).

How long would it take to build an technical level equivalent to
perhaps, err, NOW, starting from scratch?

I think it'd probably not be a very long time period, myself,
because the hard part of anything is knowing that it exists and can
be done with a certain principle "x"... for example, any twit
nowadays can give you a basic description of how a telegraph works,
but it took man eons to invent the telegraph, for the simple reason
that man didn't know about electricity for all those eons. I'd be
willing to bet that within 150 years or so, they'd be pretty well
set up....

Eric Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{ihnp4,cbosgd}!killer!elg
{akgua,killer}!usl!elg

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 13:32:41 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Colonys & technology

elg@usl (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>Consider this scenario:
>
>A relativistic (?) colonization ship arrives at a target planet.
>
>On board this ship are thousands of widgets, each widget containing
>a copy of the complete Library of Congress and Patent Office (or
>futuristic equivalents :-), and each requiring absolutely no kind
>of servicing or technological support (e.g. lay it out in the sun
>when it wants power, I guess, no moving parts, centuries-long life
>span....).
>
>How long would it take to build an technical level equivalent to
>perhaps, err, NOW, starting from scratch?
>
>I think it'd probably not be a very long time period, myself,
>because within 150 years or so, they'd be pretty well set up....

I don't think that 150 years is too unreasonable, especially
considering how far (?) we've come in the past 150. However, 150
years is clearly long >to me<. Certainly, the first settlers are
going to have to bring an awful lot of stuff with them, or live in
fairly primitive conditions.  Take the telegraph, for example: do
you know how to find copper ore, smelt it, extrude wire, and
insulate it? Can you forge iron to make the generator for the power?
How does one go about placing a 50 foot tree trunk in the ground so
we can string wires? Granted, all the info is likely to be in the
widgets, but even after you find it, it will take years of hard work
to use that info. Especially if you take the approach that Heinlein
suggested in Time Enough for Love: no fancy equipment, nothing that
you can't fix with hand tools and sweat. Those first settlers are
going to have to work >awfully< hard.

Ned Danieley
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807 or 684-6942

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 87 13:34:19 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Colonies & technology

elg@usl (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>On board this ship are thousands of widgets, each widget containing
>a copy of the complete Library of Congress and Patent Office (or
>futuristic equivalents :-), and each requiring absolutely no kind
>of servicing or technological support (e.g. lay it out in the sun
>when it wants power, I guess, no moving parts, centuries-long life
>span....).
>
>How long would it take to build an technical level equivalent to
>perhaps, err, NOW, starting from scratch?

I think this ignores a lot of factors.  First, you need raw
materials to build anything.  If, for example, the planet is
metal-poor, or petroleum-poor, you're going to have a lot of trouble
making *anything* of modern society (if you can't make metal and you
can't make plastic...).

Second, you need a sufficient labor base to support your technology.
You need miners, lumberjacks, truck-drivers (not to mention farmers)
before you can get the secondary industry to make manufactured
goods...  not to mention that the productivity of the miners,
lumberjacks, etc.  is going to be limited by the amount of
manufactured goods that are available.  Technology has a real
start-up problem, and you have to have enough people (or robots) and
implements to get the world through many long years of insufficient
production.

Third (as every SF reader must realize), you never know what kind of
sociological mess you're going to get into.  The outbreak of a
repressive political or religious regime is always a possibility,
and technological artifacts may be kept for the Elite or actively
destroyed if the wrong people take power.

Fourth, there is the question of wild card factors on the planet in
question.  If the planet already has a sentient race, anything can
happen (wars often encourage technological advances, but they're
hell on the labor base).  If the planet has animal life, you might
spend a lot of time fighting carnivores.  If the planet only has
plant life, the colonists had better be vegetarians...or perhaps,
they'll bring their own food animals, and see how long it is before
some escape, go wild, and ruin the ecology.  And who knows what
interesting micro-organisms the colonists might encounter, without
benefit of native immunity.  And if the planet is entirely dead, or
filled with life-forms that are incompatible with terrestrial life
in any way you want to pick...well, the bookstores are filled with
all kinds of interesting scenarios.  ("Courtship Rite" by Donald
Kingsbury comes to mind.)

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 19:32:57 GMT
From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Biggar)
Subject: Re: Colonys & technology

ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes:
>elg@usl (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>>Consider this scenario: How long would it take to build an
>>technical level equivalent to perhaps, err, NOW, starting from
>>scratch?
>
>I don't think that 150 years is too unreasonable, especially
>considering how far (?) we've come in the past 150. However, 150
>years is clearly long >to me>. Certainly, the first settlers are
>going to have to bring an awful lot of stuff with them, or live in
>fairly primitive conditions.  ...years of hard work to use that
>info. Especially if you take the approach that Heinlein suggested
>in Time Enough for Love: no fancy equipment, nothing that you can't
>fix with hand tools and sweat. Those first settlers are going to
>have to work >awfully> hard.

Unless you assume that by the time me get around to intersteller
(even relativistic) travel we should have Drexler style
nanotechnology, in which case the answer is tomorrow afternoon.

Self-reproducing automota make everything easy and fast.  And, if
the planet was discovered by a robot probe (who wants to show up at
a solar system and have no place to land) nanotechnology means that
the planet is ready for the colonists when they get there cities and
all.

Mark Biggar
{allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 19:32:03 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Colonies & technology

jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner) writes:
>elg@usl (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>>How long would it take to build an technical level equivalent to
>>perhaps, err, NOW, starting from scratch?
>
>I think this ignores a lot of factors.  First, you need raw
>materials to build anything.  If, for example, the planet is
>metal-poor, or petroleum-poor, you're going to have a lot of
>trouble making *anything* of modern society (if you can't make
>metal and you can't make plastic...).

Nonsense.  You use nanomachines to build whatever you want out of
whatever atoms happen to be lying around.

>Second, you need a sufficient labor base to support your
>technology.

You can pack all the labor you need in a thimble on the nano-scale.
For discussion of nano-technology, see _Engines of Creation_ by K.
Eric Drexler.

The real problem is energy to fuel the building.  Speed of building
something is directly limited by the energy available.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 21:25:54 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!tmca@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Abbott)
Subject: How things work

   I fear I haven't been reading rec.arts.sf-lovers quite as much as
perhaps I ought recently, however, I did just flick through a number
of the more recent articles and what do I find? Everyone wants to
know how things work. Like the 'trans-warp' drive in Star Trek for
example (I believe that the author thought it what a 'combination of
transporter and standard warp drive', though what that's supposed to
explain, I don't know). Another didn't like the fact that phasers
make the victim's body disappear. Someone else suggested that
transporters, among other things, work by converting the transportee
into energy and sending that energy down to the planet surface for
reconstruction, complaining that this could be foiled by losses in
the machinery (go get a freshman book on thermodynamics, there's a
good chap, information theory might be another thing to look at -
pure energy don't contain no information, so just feed a little more
energy in to replace your losses). These are mostly aimed at ST, but
I'm sure there's lots of other bullshit out there about 'how things
work' in other SF realms.

   Now, what are we talking about here? Say after me: SCIENCE
FICTION!!!!!! Note the second word here: FICTION. Why must people
demand explanations of what are after all fictional devices (in
both senses of the phrase). The author will tell you enough to make
it sound convincing, often not even that, only requiring that you
imagine such a thing could exist. Anything you might add to such an
explanation might be an entertaining game, but it's certainly got
nothing to do with the original story.

   I always thought that SF was an enjoyable escapist adventure, it
seems somehow beneath much of the better stuff to try and explain
what are obviously fantastical machines/occurences etc. in terms
that try and take on some sort of reality. I mean, hey, I have an
undergraduate degree in physics and I'm now a grad student in
astronomy, I *know* most of this stuff is total bullshit, and I
enjoy it for what it is, I don't need some sort of hokey
pseudo-science to go with it, unless the author feels that it is
necessary to her story; in which case, fine, it's her story, but it
ain't yours, so leave it alone.

   OK, well I got that out of my system. Now let's see some decent
flames please. Sick'm rover.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 16:23:01 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Poll: specialty bookshops

Okay, informal poll time. In my last message (on Anthony and
Chalker) I mentioned a few speciality bookshops. It seems to me that
it'd be a nice thing to have a list of the SF/Fantasy specialty
shops around the country (and world, come to think of it).

So, not being afraid to volunteer for things I should know better,
I propose to put together the list.

NOTE! DO NOT POST! DO NOT POST! POSTERS WILL BE LAUGHED AT! AND
IGNORED!

If you frequent a Science Fiction/Fantasy specialty bookstore that
sells new books (I don't want to try to collect the used shops now
-- there are thousands of those), MAIL me the following information:

Shop Name
Shop Address
Shop Phone Number
Owners name (if you know it)
Does it do mail order?
Other Specialties (horror, mystery, etc...)
Used books?

I'll cull duplicates and put it together and then post it to the net.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 87 12:41 EDT
From: <CEBELENS%CTSTATEU.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Boskone?

 Greetings fellow SF-LOVERS....

   Here at Connecticut State University we have a Science
Fiction/Fantasy club known as CCSUniverse.  At present we intend to
attend this years Boskone convention (recently re-located to
Springfield :-) and we would be very much interested in meeting
other people from other campuses.  If you intend to participate in
this years Boskone, and would like to get together for discussion or
maybe to play some FRP's, then please drop me a note here (or
LEE_JES@CTSTATEU.BITNET) or even post it to the nets...

   Hope to see some of you there!!

Chris Cebelenski
Connecticut State University
CEBELENS@CTSTATEU (BITNET)
(203) 758-8334 (AT&T Net)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 23:19:10 GMT
From: lamont@hpcupt1.hp.com (LaMont Jones)
Subject: Convention Announcement

The fliers are starting to come out on BAYCON 88, and PR #0 is about
to be mailed.

The current plan calls for May 27-30, 1988 at the Red Lion Inn in
San Jose, California.

Fabulous Guests will be attending, although no one is yet quite sure
who.  (More details to follow..)

Further information can be obtained by writing to:
Baycon '88
PO Box 70393
Sunnyvale, Ca 94086
(Tel: 408-446-5141)

LaMont Jones
UUCP:{hplabs,ihnp4,...}!hpda!lamont

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 15:49:51 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: British TV Convention -Chicago

I talked with Howard Lee, organizer of the Chicago British TV
convention last night and the following is some more information
that I found out.  For those of you that didn't read my last
posting, I am not affiliated with this convention in any way except
that I will be attending it on Sunday! So, I'm passing along this
information for interest.

Specifics:
   British TV Convention
   Holiday Inn O'hare
   5460 River Road -Rosemont, Illinois
   Oct10, 11, & 12 1987

Hours: sat. 9am-8pm
       sun. 10am-7pm (reception 7pm-11pm)
       mon. 10am-4pm

 Video room will be running 8am -2am (or longer) for all three days.

 Autograph sessions begin at 2:00 all 3 days
 Panel Discussions begin at 12:00 all 3 days

guests: Dave Rogers, author of "History of ITV" and other books
        Richard Franklin -played Captain Yates in the John Pertwee
        Dr. Who episodes

        These two people will be doing performances later on during
        sunday evenings reception.

There will be a room full of dealers and and auction on sunday
auctioning off signed original scripts from the Avengers and The
Professionals.

Video Rooms during all 3 days will be showing episodes of:

   Gerry Andersons "The Investigators"
   Promos for All Avengers shows
   Avengers featuring Honor Blackman
   Fireball XL5
   Stingray
   Supercar
   Captain Scarlet & the Mysterons
   Thunderbirds
   Joe 90
   UFO
   Terrahawks
   Star Cops (Space Police?)
   Saphire & Steel
   The Professionals
   The Persuaders
   Quartermass
   Worzille Gummidge (starring John Pertwee)
   Champions
   Danger Man
   Warriors of God
   Missing Episode from Tom Baker's Dr. Who entitled "Shada"
   also (maybe) the Startrek episode "Where no man has gone before"
   featuring different music and titles.

contact Howard Lee at 477-5033 for additional info, or call the
Hotel.

Again, I am not affiliated with this but I will be there on Sunday.

Bob

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #443
Date: 12 Oct 87 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #443
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Oct 87 0913-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #443
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 443

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Blish (3 msgs) &
                    Brin (3 msgs) & Farmer & Flynn &
                    Gerrold & Kurtz (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 09:03:07 GMT
From: uwvax!sequent!ogcvax!reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU (Soren Petersen)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>I will go along with you on Chalker, though I enjoy his works
>non-the-less, but you must not have read very much of Anthonies
>works to take that stand.  If you are only familiar with his Xanth
>books, I can see that...Or only the Aprentise Adept/Incarnations of
>Imortality ones, but have you read Steppe or Tree?  MacroScope?
>Bio of a Space Tyrant?  Taot?  Chain series?
>
>Good grief, the man writes about all sorts of different themes!

On the other hand he only has three characters.

   These are:

1) The Good-hearted, sexually inexperienced/threatened protagonist.
He is totally honorable according to his rules (which appear to be
the same in every book, what a coincidence!), and he is socially
outcast for reasons totally beyond his control (i.e. a disfiguring
mutation).  He also has a Great Hidden Talent which (along with the
totally rigorous morality), saves the day.

2) The devious, emotional, sexually threatening (but also virginal)
female lead.  She is won (note the passive voice) by the hero
because of his strict morality.

3) The charming, physically attractive and also
honorable-by-his-own-lights villain.  His honor, however, is not as
rigorous/correct as the hero, so he doesn't get the girl, although
he often turns out to be Good, really.

I haven't read all his books, especially the recent ones; but I have
read at least 70% of everything he wrote before 1983, and the only
book that doesn't obviously follow the pattern is *Chthon*.  He even
wrote a book (one of the *Cluster* series), with a female
protagonist which followed the pattern.

The popularity of the books is easy to understand.  This is classic
misfit-adolescent power-fantasy, folks.  Unfortunately, there isn't
very much left for anyone who isn't a misfit adolescent anymore,
which is why I haven't read any of his books in several years, now.

Someone asked about other one-book authors.  I can't think of any
examples as good as Chalker or Anthony (except perhaps Franklin W.
Dixon :^)), although all of Zelazny's books have the same
Protagonist (you know, the rich, immortal, alienated one), even
though the books in question are quite different).

soren f petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 01:33:27 GMT
From: cpf@TCGOULD.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

soren@reed.UUCP (Soren Petersen) writes:
>Someone asked about other one-book authors.  I can't think of any
>examples as good as Chalker or Anthony (except perhaps Franklin W.
>Dixon :^)), although all of Zelazny's books have the same
>Protagonist (you know, the rich, immortal, alienated one), even
>though the books in question are quite different).

Another one book author was Mack Reynolds.  Actually, this is a
little unfair; he wrote about three, but published them at least
thirty times.

Also, Piers Anthony is not a one book author.  There is his one book
that he has published 20+ times; there is Macroscope, which was
somewhat different (not very good, but different); and there is
Prostho Plus, which is pretty good farce.  (That is, it was intended
to be farce -- too many other books achieve the status
accidentally.)

Courtenay Footman
Lab. of Nuclear Studies
Cornell University
ARPA:   cpf@lnssun9.tn.cornell.edu
Usenet: Sometimes works
Bitnet: cpf@CRNLNUC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 05:18:33 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

I won't accept such a rotten assessment of Piers Anthony (Jacobs).
Granted, his Cluster and Tarot series are only suited for lining
birdcages.  Still, the Bio of a Space Tyrant series had a reasonable
plot line, the Blue Adept series was a pretty good read (except for
the hero's obligatory nudity, which made zero sense in any climate
or none), the Incarnations of Immortality had a really fresh idea,
and the Xanth series is always good when my mood needs lightening.

He admits to being a hack; he'd be less of one if he would avoid sex
and scatology, neither of which he has the skills to bring off, and
just stick to entertainment.

For sure, you aren't going to carry away any great enlightenment
from any of his stuff, but if you need something to read while
giving your psoriasis an afternoon's soak in the tub, he gives value
for money spent, if you avoid his real turkey obsessions.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 87 19:04 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dan Parmenter)
Subject: the remix?

I recently picked up the 1980 Arbor House Treasury of Great Science
Fiction Short Novels.  Among the many enjoyable stories I read was
James Blish's classic 'A Case of Conscience'.  I found it
thought-provoking and entertaining, and as I was discussing with a
friend, I noticed a discrepancy in our recollection of the story.
The story, as those who have read it recall, is about a Priest
coming to the conclusion that a planet of entirely benevolent but
secular beings is a fabrication of Satan.  As I read it (I have it
here beside me) it ends with the Priest leaving the planet, having
been given an egg of one of its inhabitants.  As my chum recalled
it, the story ended with the planet being blown up as some sort of
an exorcism.

Later, when reading 'Science Fiction and the Quest For Meaning', a
book of essays on religious themes in SF I found that in the
discusion of this work, the same alternate ending was referred to,
i.e. the planet gets blown up.  To make matters worse, subsequent
discussions have dismayingly confirmed this alternate version to
what I read.  I just reread it today.  No blown-up planets here.

Can anyone assist me in determining if there are alternate versions
of this story?  At the very least, I would like to know where else
this story is reprinted so that I can look into this myself.

I hope the SF Lovers can shed some light on this one...

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 18:15:33 GMT
Subject: Re: the remix?

DANDOM@UMass writes:
>I recently picked up the 1980 Arbor House Treasury of Great Science
>Fiction Short Novels.  Among the many enjoyable stories I read was
>James Blish's classic 'A Case of Conscience'.  I found it
>thought-provoking and entertaining, and as I was discussing with a
>friend, I noticed a discrepancy in our recollection of the story.
>The story, as those who have read it recall, is about a Priest
>coming to the conclusion that a planet of entirely benevolent but
>secular beings is a fabrication of Satan.  As I read it (I have it
>here beside me) it ends with the Priest leaving the planet, having
>been given an egg of one of its inhabitants.  As my chum recalled
>it, the story ended with the planet being blown up as some sort of
>an exorcism.

There are two versions of the story.  One is novella length, and
appeared in (I think) the first 'Best SF' anthology.  It does indeed
end with the priest taking away an egg.

The second version is novel length, and was published in book form
by Penguin.  The first half of the book is the original novella,
very slightly edited.  The second half is new, and concerns the
adventures of the egg.  IT ends with the planet blowing up.

I found the novel almost as good as the original story; you might
want to hunt it down.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 21:51:00 GMT
From: clark@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Case of Conscience

   Blish's "A Case of Conscience" was originally published at
novella length, and expanded to book length under the same title.
The first third of the book is the novella essentially unchanged,
and continues with the team arriving at Earth.  Needless to say, all
hell starts breaking loose.  The li'l lizard coming out of the egg
is hardly the rational automaton one would expect.  Ruiz-Sanchez is
in big-time religious and political trouble for his heresy.  Lithia
gets exploited.  And the only explanation the Vatican can come up
with to avoid conceding Satanic creativity has rather horrifying
consequences--particularly for Ruiz-Sanchez.
    So many writers blow it when they write a dynamite novellete
ending with tremendous events just over the horizon, and then try to
write about the promised events; but Blish does well.  Do try to
find a copy of the novel.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 08:25:05 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: Brin/Benford
From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

>'The Postman' is the better book.  'The Heart of the Comet' is
>trashy fun, but not quite as good as the others, presumably because
>it's diluted by Gregory Benford.

Interesting comment.  Brin himself has said he thought Heart of the
Comet was a much better book than Postman, and I personally would
never regard Benford's contributions (to anything) as 'dilutions'.
Try Artifact.  You might prefer it to In the Ocean of Night.  Or
not.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 23:47:44 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60RC)
Subject: Re: Brin/Benford

Jo_M._Anselm writes:
>>'The Postman' is the better book.  'The Heart of the Comet' is
>>trashy fun, but not quite as good as the others, presumably
>>because it's diluted by Gregory Benford.
>
>Interesting comment.  Brin himself has said he thought Heart of the
>Comet was a much better book than Postman ...

Again interesting.  I picked up _Heart of the Comet_ a while ago and
read a couple of chapters before losing interest.  A while later I
read a couple more chapters and again lost interest.  An
acquaintance had the same reaction.  I don't really understand why
this was; I've read much worse stuff without losing interest.
Perhaps the build up to the meat of the story was just too slow.
Any comments?

_The Postman_ on the other hand, held my interest throughout the
book.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 06:01:15 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Brin/Benford

From: "Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E"@Xerox.COM
>>'The Postman' is the better book.  'The Heart of the Comet' is
>>trashy fun, but not quite as good as the others, presumably
>>because it's diluted by Gregory Benford.
>
>Interesting comment.  Brin himself has said he thought Heart of the
>Comet was a much better book than Postman, and I personally would
>never regard Benford's contributions (to anything) as 'dilutions'.
>Try Artifact.  You might prefer it to In the Ocean of Night.  Or
>not.

Whew.  I guess this is why authors shouldn't write criticisms of
their own works.  "Recent = Best" is a common human failing.  The
Postman seems likely to last on my list of all time favorite novels,
well worth frequent rereading.  The Heart of the Comet, on the other
hand, had such totally unbelievable biology that suspending
disbelief was not possible.  I ended up not caring if the players
made it out alive, and finally regretted wasting the price of the
book.

Then again, after only a couple thousand SF novels, I don't claim to
be an expert, just an addict.  ;-)

[ Hmm.  If I'd spent that time writing them, instead of reading
them, I'd be ready to cash in on the current "pay SF authors what
they're worth" fad, and no longer poor.  Sob.  Wish I had some
writing talent.  ;-) ]

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 22:17:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Philip Jose Farmer

hwarkentyne@watdragon.waterloo.edu writes:
>I found this reaction interesting because I have also liked other
>first books by Farmer and then been disillusioned by his follow
>ups.

Join the club. I used to be a big Farmer fan, but have not been
keeping up with him. The only Farmer series I've read past the first
two books is the World of Tiers series, and that was getting pretty
tiring near the end. However, I really enjoyed his early, more
concise books, like the Lovers, Strange Relations etc.

Farmer has many interesting ideas. Unfortunately, in the '80s he
seems to be more interested in making a fast buck than writing
competent books. Hence the tendency to milk the same ideas and
scenarios again and again, ad nauseum. It used to be that I could
look with tolerance on the excesses of A Feast Unknown, because it
was (maybe) a less than successful experiment. These days I have no
patience with the flaccid writing that Farmer has been trying to
sell.

Sequel-itis... seems like it hits all successful science fiction
writers sooner or later. Herbert, Piers Anthony, Farmer... the list
goes on.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1987  12:56 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: psychohistory

   Those of you who enjoyed Foundation (at least the first three)
might enjoy a very interesting 2 part story, "In the Country of the
Blind" by Michael Flynn in the Oct. and Nov. issues of Analog.  It
provides an interesting alternate outlook on psychohistorical
manipulations...

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 19:19:45 GMT
From: brun@husc4.harvard.edu (todd brun)
Subject: David Gerrold

A few years ago, David Gerrold published two books, _A Matter for
Men_ and _A Day for Damnation_, in which he postulates a rather
unusual alien invasion of earth.  I'm not going to argue the
artistic merits of the books, but I HATE reading only two books of a
trilogy.  At the end of the second book, he promised another: _A
Rage for Revenge_.  I've never seen it or heard of it anywhere.
Does anyone know if it exists?  Please E-mail me if you know about
it.

Thanks,

Todd Brun
brun@husc4.harvard.edu
brun@husc4.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 02:14:10 GMT
From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (M.A. Murphy)
Subject: Re: Deryni/Kurtz

>>Also, humans with Deryni powers seem unaccountably widespread,
>>given that until recently the phenomenon was recognized only in
>>the royal family.
>
>I can think of one outside of the Royal Family, and that was in the
>Camber Series.  Also, from what I have gotten out of the books,
>ANYONE can have shields of some kind, this is not a Deryni only
>'talent'.

In several places throughout the 3 Deryni trilogies mention is made
of people showing Deryni talents who are not known to have Deryni
ancestry.  A number of these people turn out to be at least part
Deryni whose ancestry has been hidden from them because of the
persecution of the Deryni as a race.  Kelson's blood brother Dhugal
was supposed to be human, but it turns out that he was sired by
Duncan who was half Deryni and thus had Deryni powers himself.

Michael A. Murphy
Murph@MAINE.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 1987  13:03 EDT (Wed)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: boelke%eduhci.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM (05-Oct-1987 1059)
Subject: Kurtz/Deryni

The genetic issue merely indicates that Kurtz is not a geneticist.

There are three humans who appear to have Deryni type powers in the
original series: Bran Coris, whose powers are activated by Wencit;
Sean Lord Derry, whom Morgan notes to have unusually strong
potential; and Warin de Grey, the healer.  It is probably the fact
that they all think of the Haldane powers as part of their divine
right to rule that keeps them from finding lots of people who can be
"activated" by the proper ritual.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 12-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #444
Date: 12 Oct 87 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #444
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 12 Oct 87 0931-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #444
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 12 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 444

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Belated Worldcon Report &
                         Alternate Universed (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 October 1987, 21:48:13 EDT
From: Nicholas Simicich <NJS@ibm.com>
Subject: Belated Worldcon Report  (Sorry about that)

This is the Worldcon Convention report, brought to you indirectly
from the "@" party at the Brighton Worldcon.  Unlike last year, this
will have to wait until I can get back to the United States for
posting.

I thought it would be three whole weeks before I had the chance to
use a keyboard again.  I can't tell you how grateful I am to be able
to refresh my fading motor reflexes, and how happy that I don't have
to type on the wrong side of the keyboard!  -- David Singer

I, too, am suffering from keyboard withdrawal symptoms but will make
up for it when I get back.  Readers, beware!  -- Evelyn C. Leeper

The crummy weather that Europe has been suffering under lately has
gone away more or less in time for the con.  Now if it can stay nice
'til the end, everyone will be very happy.  --Mike Kupfer

MOO HA HA!  No more soc.women (100 articles per day) no more
arguments about religion.  NO MORE GODDAMN LINE NOISE!  I am so glad
that I don't have to use a computer for two weeks.  Wait a
minute.....--ooblick@eddie.mit.edu

People seem to have been talking about having keyboard withdrawal.
I don't know what their problem is, I called the office and the
keyboard is just where it always was.  I think my fingers are a
little shorter though.  The weather is cold and grey (that is the
British shade of gray) and dry which means it is good for Brighton.
Usually it is rainy also.  The film program is pretty good (you mean
there are other reasons for going to a science fiction
convention???)  in that we get to see a lot of rare and pretentious
films like THE ELEMENT OF CRIME which nobody in his right mind would
watch in the U.S.  Cheers!  (..!ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper) (and fiercely
proud of it.)

Greetings all, I bet you thought that you had gotten rid of me.
Well you were dead WRONG!  Love to Matty.  See you soon. --fh@m00se

Well, this is my computer, and I've been typing on it all week.
Keyboard withdrawal, huh?  You're talking to a real addict, who
actually brought one with him.  Enough.  The convention is fairly
reasonable, actually.  I've only ever been to one other out of the
country worldcon, Australia, and this one is much larger.  Hotel
problems though, but not at this hotel.  I'm sure that others will
feel free to elaborate.  I find that I'm feeling very suicidal.  I'm
constantly looking in the wrong direction before I step off the
curb, and I can't understand why....NJS@IBM.COM..

Oh, that keyboard withdrawal!  I just put on my helmet and drove
over here today, about an hour and a half from Hursley. The news had
been advising people to stay well away from Brighton on account of
this strange convention...  I had been telling people all year that
I would give worldcon a miss. All those people, etc, I prefer a
small con, etc, I'll go to Novacon instead. But, when it got close,
I thought, well, nice weather, ... I called a hotel about two weeks
before the con. "No hotel rooms around here", they said, "there is
this weird conference, thousands of people..." Yes I said, I was
hoping to go to it. BUT the tourist bureau found one at only twice
the normal rate. AND the first, the very first thing I see when I
check in, is a sign for VNET people to party. Now I have IDs on 8
different VNET nodes; what shall I go as? Good old GRAY from VENTA?
Businesslike MGRAY from WINVMD (Subject: NO SUBJECT) ? Or impersonal
86628438 from WARVM2?

When I got here I found I had come with my wife's keys in my pocket
by mistake. The air between here and there was blue.  Fortunately, I
had left mine behind, so she can drive the car and even go to the
office and do my work if she wants; I now have a set of keys saying
WORLDS GREATEST GAL. Does this go down well in Brighton?

Wow, the enter key puts in a funny sign.

So anyway, here I am at the VNET party, actually all kinds of other
nets too. Everyone else is American fan. Their customs are strange.
They keep beer in the bath. (There was an old saying about giving
baths to poor people: "They'll only keep coal in it"). I hear that
over there they don't have BARS where you can DRINK BEER, that some
of them actually go to programme items instead...That must be why
they have these beer-in-the-bath parties).  But maybe I committed a
gross solecism. I don't know what their custom is.  Perhaps I should
have come to this party armed with a bottle of 10yr old malt.
Perhaps they are all at this moment sitting around me wondering,
"Who is this guy, comes in, typing away like its his life story,
doesn't even bring a drink with him!!"  Just as I would if they
didn't buy their round at the correct moment.  Just as well we
aren't in Japan; not a hope of behaving politely there.  Someone
just came in, and was asked "any other good parties going on?"  So
clearly they regard room parties as the usual con behaviour.
Whereas I never usually go to one at a con.  Still, perhaps THEY are
in the majority here.  Dermot is putting on fireworks on Sunday
night.  The last con he did them, he even got Okays from all nearby
airports, police, etc; then when the display started, the hotel
management got scared and stopped it.  They had not been expecting
munitions on quite such a scale.  They probably thought, just a few
pretty fireworks on the back lawn.  Dermot chose War of the worlds
as his theme, and was doing justice to it when they stopped it, with
some large mortar batteries and airbomb repeaters.  I think the
hotel were worried the building would be damaged...

All people here aren't from USA.  I am from Finland, (You know, that
country between Norway and Soviet Union -- and we DON'T have polar
bears!) also my 3 other friends are here -- Major speaking languages
are English and Finnish ( rest of people probably don't understand
Finnish).  According to attendee list there is five Europeans.
Anyway, this has been very nice experience -- (Matti E. Aarnio [mea]
<MAARNIO@FINFUN.BITNET> ) -- Next!

I'm the Finn here trying to work for better and better connections
between different networks and their users around the world,
SF-LOVERS hopefully available in everyone of them. Here seems to be
other computer communication professionals as well. First week here
in England was nearly too warm in Finnish standards, but now the
atmosphere is near the constant atmosphere where big computers and
their fans feel home (20 C, 50%).

 Harri K. Salminen, HUTCC & FUNET,
<LK-HS@FINHUTC.HUT.FI>,<LK-HS@FINHUTC.BITNET>.

This is Saul.  I am not here at this party.  I was never here and
deny any knowledge of being here.  Anyone who claims to have seen me
here is mistaken.  This has been a recording.

Whee! (poslfit) (no that is not a spelling error). At last a room
party that actually has consumables and is not packed with what
seems like half the convention. The room is in the Grand Hotel, the
site of the IRA Tory convention bombing, so the staff are somewhat
(ahem) over protective, but otherwise very nice. I too have been
suffering from some keyboard withdrawal, and even a portable thingy
is better that nothing.  Conspiracy is turning out to be
interesting, what with the traffic jams in the hallway and fire
departments monitoring the rooms to ensure that they do not exceed
the rated capacity, but some such problems are inevitable.

William Rucklidge (wjr)
Attending the party were:
Dan Weigert, dlw@pdp.cs.ohiou.edu
P.H. Mabey, PHM@STL.STC.CO.UK
Pekka Supinen, Reporter.
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen jvh@clinet.FI
"Matti E. Aarnio"  <MAARNIO@FINFUN.BITNET>
Harri K. Salminen, LK-HS@FINHUTC.HUT.FI,
     LK-HS@FINHUTC.BITNET
William J. Rucklidge, wjr@unicus.COM
Morris M. Keesan, keesan@bbn.com
Alastair J.W. Mayer,
     utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!alastair
Jordan Brown, jbrown@jplpub1.jpl.nasa.gov
Saul Jaffe sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu
A. Marina Fournier, <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>
Evelyn C. Leeper <ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl>
Mark R. Leeper <ihnp4!mtgzz!leeperl>
Mike Kupfer <kupfer.osbunorth@xerox.com>
James Turner <ringwld!jmturn@CCA.CCA.COM, SF [GEnie])
Michael Tallan <Tallan.osbunorth@Xerox.com>
Mike Gray <GRAY at VENTA (VNET)>
David Singer (SINGER at ALMVMA (VNET), SINGER@ibm.com)
Diane Goldman (DIANE at STLVM22)
Michael  Breslau (MDCG.MIKE@MIT-OZ) & spouse Esther
David Dyer-Bennet (ddb@viper.UUCP) & spouse Pamela Dean
John S. Quarterman <jsq@longway.tic.com> <uunet!longway!jsq>
bothner@pescadero.stanford.edu
David A. Butterfield <lcc!dave@ucla-cs>
Nick Simicich <njs@ibm.com, philabs!polaris!njs, NJS at
   YKTVMH (Bitnet, Vnet)> and spouse.
Last but not least, the woman from the desk who asked us, in
   a very restrained manner and proper British manner, to
   quiet down.

It's 1:50, and the party has been over for a couple of hours.  Your
host, Nick Simicich, again, with the last words.... Hmmm....I put
the bitter in the tub and covered it with cold tap water because it
seemed warmer that a normal room temperature.  The lager was iced,
as I thought befit lager, separately in the sink.  We overbought
beer, and underbought things like soda (almost none) and orange
juice.  I expected more British fans, and expected them to drink
beer.  Stereotypes again.  Should have bought more for the American
crowd I actually got.  Oh well.  Once again, I enjoyed playing host,
and find it hard to imagine a more pleasant bunch of people to have
in for a party.  Canned beer was 1.99 pounds per four pack, which is
4.98 dollars per six pack, and this was advertised as a good price.
Lager was slightly cheaper, this was for bitter, an amber brew which
seems to be the standard.

I enjoyed putting on the party, and hope to do it again next year in
New Orleans.

------------------------------

Date: 4 October 1987 22:38:07 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Alternate Universes (Used to be FTL travel)

The discussion of FTL brought to my mind a story in which pilots
were able to travel to alternate universes and could return to their
original universe by using a homing beacon of some kind.  One
problem they faced was that the homing beacon 'smeared out' more and
more the longer they stayed in an alternate time-line (if they
returned immediately, presumably the homing beacon would show up as
a single point).  The pilots would just pick a point within the
smeared out interval indicated by the homing beacon, and things were
fine.  Then one pilot made stops at two different points within the
interval, and had a horrible 'collision' (actually some kind of an
intersection of two copies of the pilot).

I remember reading this story in a collection of stories about
alternate universes.  One other story that I still remember quite
well was entitled, I believe, 'The Slips Take Over.'  What were the
names of the anthology and the story described above?

I've heard a fair amount of praise for Frederik Pohl's recent novel,
_The Coming of the Quantum Cats_, but personally, I didn't think
Pohl added any new twists to the 'classics' in the above anthology.
For example, why were the alternate universes so distinct, and
easily enumerated rather than being nearly continuously variable and
astronomical in number?  I much prefer the realization of alternate
universes in the story I'm trying to recall.  And I thought the
binary system stuff was ridiculous: it would be terribly inefficient
to use base 2 (3.322 digits for each base 10 digit), and even with
base 8 aggregations, the names were too similar for accurate verbal
transmission.

Getting back to the story at the top, it's not clear to me why
returning 'home' even once would always be safe.  Apparently in the
story, the pilots were still somehow linked to their original
time-line, because for each alternate future of their original
world, there was a corresponding pilot to return to it, even though
the pilots were visiting alternate universes outside their own
alternate futures.  It seems more reasonable that the universe a
pilot visited would diverge at a different rate from his home
universe.  If the divergences occurred discretely in time and each
resulted in a finite number of branches so that the smeared out
homing beacon had a (truncated) fractal structure rather than
actually representing an entire interval, then either many copies of
the pilot might return to each point of the home beacon, or many
points would never see the pilot return.  Even if the number of
pilots and copies of the home universe somehow turned up identical,
each 'home point' could receive exactly one pilot only if the pilots
somehow behaved coherently; otherwise some pilots might
independently choose the same home world and collide, leaving other
worlds without a pilot to return there.  But if the pilot(s) stayed
out long enough for more than one branching to take place (wouldn't
every observation of a quantum state result in a branching?), it
seems highly unlikely that the pilots could maintain this coherence
because of the different branches the pilots would undergo following
the initial branching.

There is a possible loophole if the divergences could result in an
infinite number of 'branches'.  I won't go into details (if you're
interested, Martin Gardner has presented some nice examples of the
counter-intuitive possibilities for auto-morphisms of infinite
sets).  But even this would still require some sort of coherent
behavior among the divergent copies of the original pilot.

Paul R. Pudaite

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Oct 87 17:47:22 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: FTL

In THE WOUNDED SKY, Diane Duane postulated another universe, where
the speed of light is many times what it is here. The ship's drive
created a shell of otherspace around the ship, so that it was
actually moving through otherspace instead of our own.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 03:23:28 GMT
From: gatech!decvax!chaos!uokmax!dabachma@RUTGERS.EDU (Donald A
From: Bachman)
Subject: Re: Alternate Universes (Used to be FTL travel)

From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
>The discussion of FTL brought to my mind a story in which pilots
>were able to travel to alternate universes and could return to
>their original universe by using a homing beacon of some kind.  One
>problem they faced was that the homing beacon 'smeared out' more
>and more the longer they stayed in an alternate time-line (if they
>returned immediately, presumably the homing beacon would show up as
>a single point).  The pilots would just pick a point within the
>smeared out interval indicated by the homing beacon, and things
>were fine.  Then one pilot made stops at two different points
>within the interval, and had a horrible 'collision' (actually some
>kind of an intersection of two copies of the pilot).
>
>I remember reading this story in a collection of stories about
>alternate universes.  One other story that I still remember quite
>well was entitled, I believe, 'The Slips Take Over.'  What were the
>names of the anthology and the story described above?

   I'm not certain but wasn't the name of the story, and the
antholoy, "All the Myriad Ways" both by Larry Niven. (Let me
rephrase. I'm fairly sure of the anthology name and not the name of
the story). The problem as I recall for pilots of the cross-time
crafts was that while they were away from their home universe the
universe would continue to split into alternates, generating many
alternate universes with homing beacons and giving them many
universes that were all technically "home". The pilot in question
was trying to see how little time he could be gone and return, and
in one universe, that of the story, returned to his home universe
twice (copies of him exisiting as well), with one version of himself
dying instantly.
   Like I said, "I'm not certain . . . ."

Donald Bachman
dabachma@uokmax

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #445
Date: 13 Oct 87 1007-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #445
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Oct 87 1007-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #445
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 445

Today's Topics:

        Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  1 Oct 87  14:03:18 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Star Blech: A Real Degeneration

It was only 15 minutes into the pilot episode of STTNG last night
when I knew that it was going to be terrible. The new Enterprise
looks like a dustpan with tiles for the hull, the only ship uglier
being the Battlestar Galactica. The C.O.  reminds me of Captin
Stubing from the Love Boat. The special effects are cheap.  And what
is this fascination with hybrids? Spock was half-human half-Vulcan,
Saavik is half-Vulcan half Romulan, and now this half-humn
half-telepath who whines during the entire story. A black man who is
blind, a double whammy.  Doctor McCoy at 137 years talking like a
bigger hic than he was in the first Star Trek movie. The only
interesting character was the Klingon officer, even Data was silly.
Most of the crew are incompetent and inexperienced. The boy Wes
seems to know more about the bridge than the Captain does. Aliens
who dress like pirates and have a trial more ridiculous than Trial
Of A Time Lord.  The plot was childish, throwing worthless clues at
us for 2 hours then having everything solved in the last 5 minutes
of the show. Next week's episode looks equally bad, dealing with a
plague that causes the crew to become drunk and promiscuous.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 21:05:18 GMT
From: gadfly@ihlpa.att.com (Gadfly)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG "Encounter at Farpoint"

Mark R. Leeper writes:
> ...  Overall verdict on the series?  It is way too early to tell.
> As a film, I would rate "Encounter at Farpoint" a +1 on the -4 to
> +4 scale.  In fact, that was just about what I expected to rate
> it, but it was a higher +1 than I expected.  It is the best
> science fiction television series since the old STAR TREK died.
> (A possible exception is THE SURVIVORS, a very intelligent British
> series that was rebroadcast on Canadian television.)  Sure, I'll
> keep watching.

I've seen every scene of Star Trek set to film--the series, the
movies, The Cage, the Blooper Reel.  I was right there with Mark
watching ST:TNG.  I agree with the +1, but I had expected -1.  It
was engaging.  Barely.  More as a curiosity than a drama.  Sort of
like the 1st NFL scab games last week.  I mean, so they played on
the real field with real refs and real network coverage, but it
takes more than the outward trappings to make a real game.

It takes real characters.  The new Big-E crew simply romped around
their new playground phoning in their lines.  Contrast their
awkwardness to Kelley's cameo--enter stage left, exit stage
right--but there was sweet meat on those bones.  Of course, McCoy
fits Kelley now like an old pair of shoes.  The new cast will need
some time to add depth to their roles.  Mark's right-- it's too
early to tell.

Alas, like the scab Bears-Eagles game, it's 28-3 at halftime and the
prognosis for excitement is not good.  The utopian optimism of the
60's does not work on techno-whiz 80's characters or sets.
Although, watching the thigh-roid's legs you do feel that old
deja-vu.  There's hope--what goes around comes around-- but heck,
even the *real* space program died with the 60's.

Yes, it is the best SF TV since the original ST, but that's not
saying much.  It would be difficult to do worse than 1999 or
Galactica.  It may even be even with the first few original ST's.
It's *not* as good as "Men Into Space".  That dates me, doesn't it?
Yeah, I too will keep watching.  I've been doing it for 21 years,
though, so I couldn't stop if I wanted to.

ken perlow
(312)979-8042
ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 20:55:02 GMT
From: RLWALD@pucc.princeton.edu (Robert Wald)
Subject: After various Q postings.

  It is my firm belief that Q is in fact Trelane. 85 years older, a
little more grown up, and just coming from reading a very bad book
on morality.  Possibly also having created or taken over a planet,
although that could simply have been an illusion in case the 'Squire
of Gothos' information was available in the ship's computer and he
didn't want them figuring out who he was.

Rob Wald
Bitnet: RLWALD@PUCC.BITNET
Uucp: {ihnp4|allegra}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!RLWALD
Arpa: RLWALD@PUCC.Princeton.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 21:34:26 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG   (spoilers)

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM (RJ Pietkivitch) writes:
> Q was instumental in setting up all of the conditions at Farpoint,
> from the injuring of the "jellyfish" unto it's re-vitalization.  Q
> undoubtably was in control of the whole situation.  He wouldn't
> leave "random" elements interfering with his "test" of the humans.

I just wanted to add that the humans were not killed either when the
bigtime jellyfish left the Farpoint planet.  Q would've taken care
of them by transporting them elsewhere as the jellyfish lifted off.

Bob Pietkivitch
UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 12:26:00 GMT
From: datacube!chris@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

   While I wasn't particularly impressed with the new Star Trek
pilot episode, I must admit that I do have a certain fondness for
the prospect of a new series. One must remember that Star Trek
appeals to a specific group of people; That is, it's a lot like opera
in that you either love the show or you hate it entirely. I regard
this new series as a tribute to the old one that all of us Trekkers
out there have grown to love. The characters in the original series
had personalities that were immutable. Kirk was always the stalwart
captain, Spock the always level-headed logical one, and "Bones"
McCoy the nudgy but loveable dedicated doctor. This new rostor of
personnel seem to be more human particularly Captain Jean-Luc
Picard, who is not above losing his temper or expressing his
discomfort around children. These elements really go against the
grain of our traditional concepts of great military leaders: Brave,
Logical, and even-tempered. While the acting has not improved a
great deal, in time I believe people will cultivate a certain
fondness of the new Enterprise and crew once we've had the
opportunity to see more of them.
   I must admit the plot wasn't anything too terrific, but it was at
least moderately engaging. I particularly liked Admiral Bones' guest
appearance. It was rather touching and provided a reminder to all of
us (and I'm sure to the producers as well) of the origins of this
new upstart series. It's as if to say, there really can be no
replacement of that first series, but only a tribute and
continuation to it.
   Incidentally, did anyone recognize the music being played as the
show took a commercial break? It sounded suspiciously like a
fragment of the theme music to Battlestar Galactica. Other than this
small lapse of taste, I've no real gripes against the show.

Chris Munschy
Datacube
Peabody MA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 21:06:57 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: After various Q postings.

RLWALD@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>  It is my firm belief that Q is in fact Trelane. 85 years older, a
>little more grown up, and just coming from reading a very bad book
>on morality.  Possibly also having created or taken over a planet,
>although that could simply have been an illusion in case the
>'Squire of Gothos' information was available in the ship's computer
>and he didn't want them figuring out who he was.

Well, its my firm belief that Q is actually a benevolent alien
masquerading as a malevolent one. Consider. He acts like he'd love
an excuse to destroy the Enterprise yet when he tries them for
savagery he only tries them for humanity's savagery. Why not include
the Klingons? After all, they have allied with the Federation and
there is a Klingon aboard the ship. Of course, he really doesn't
need to drag the Klingons into the matter. If he wanted to prove
that they are still savages he could have used what happened when he
first appeared on the bridge. After all, he appears and someone
tries to shoot him. When he defends himself in a non-lethal manner
the captain chews him out for not letting a bunch of primitives take
him captive. What was he supposed to do anyway? Look at the design
of a phaser I. Even if it wasn't so small and he wasn't so far away
it would still have been hard to tell what setting it was on with
the helmsman's thumb covering the power setting.  Perhaps Picard was
suggesting he let himself be shot to see if it was set on stun or
kill? Anyway, not too much later Worf pulls yet another phaser on
him and Yar is practically begging the Captain's permission to beat
Q up. Yet Q hasn't done anything but insult them and warn them to go
back.  Later Q saves Yar's life (okay, so he was the one who put her
in jepeordy but then she attacked his people first) when he doesn't
have to. Then still later, when it looks like Picard is about to
fire on the jellyfish he pops onto the bridge and starts telling
Picard what to do when he must have known full well that Picard
would then do the exact opposite of what he was told to do. Thus Q
guided Picard in taking the right actions. Is Q the villain that he
seems or is he really a hero? Could his purpose have been to save
the jellyfish and warn the crew of the Enterprise that by going
where no one has gone before they might run into some very powerful
and not so nice aliens so they had better be careful? Think about
it.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,ut-ngp}!gitpyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 15:34:07 GMT
From: boneill@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (Phred)
Subject: Re: After various Q postings.

RLWALD@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes:
>  It is my firm belief that Q is in fact Trelane. 85 years older, a
>little more grown up, and just coming from reading a very bad book
>on morality.  Possibly also having created or taken over a planet,
>although that could simply have been an illusion in case the
>'Squire of Gothos' information was available in the ship's computer
>and he didn't want them figuring out who he was.

  I'm glad to see that someone else has seen the similarity of Q and
Trelane from 'Squire of Gothos'. When Picard mentioned Q's use of
other races for entertainment it was the first thing I thought of.
I don't think Q IS Trelane, as Q seems much more powerful, but the
similarities are there.

  After all, with a show as big as the original was, it is hard to
keep coming up with new aliens. But let's hope that they do have
some ORIGINAL episodes upcoming.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 19:38:55 GMT
From: lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

macbeth@artecon.UUCP (David Macy-Beckwith) writes:
>Don't watch this show. It obviously causes you great pain to do so.
>Please, just change the channel.

I do not intend to watch the show.  Why would I?

>I do not consider Gene Roddenberry possessed of genius, but neither
>is he utterly talentless. You overstate the negative aspects of the
>premiere (the first episode, for Pete's sake) and effectively
>ignore both the actual and potential worth of the series.

If you would care to tell us what worth you see, kindly do so.  You
have not.  By the way, you seem unaware that pilots are *supposed*
to be taken as a statement on the series as a whole.  That is the
whole reason they are made; it's a sort of audition for prospective
distributors.  They get bigger budgets and more care in crafting
than a regular show, not smaller and less.  If this is the best they
could do for the pilot, things bode very ill.

>The primary purpose of criticism is to instruct. Simply saying "It
>all sucks canal water" may make you feel better, but it does
>nothing useful.  Tell us what you would do to make the show work.

That is not the purpose of a reviewer, since such comments are
unlikely to be acted upon.  The purpose of a reviewer is to help
people make their decisions on what to read, watch or listen to, and
to help others understand their own feelings about a work of art by
pointing out things which ought to enter into judgment.

I did point out many specific things about the show, such as
repetition of plots and visual imagery, unconvincing scripting,
corny romance, and simplistic metaphysics.  I also pointed out that
I thought some of the crew had promise, though I think they will not
be allowed to realize it.  You, however, have said nothing specific.

If the studio hired me to improve the show, I would be more than
happy to do so.  It is within my talents to do so, given how very
bad it is now, and I have in fact come up with some ideas on my own.
I see no value in presenting them to the net community, and so I
have not done so.  Since you specifically requested some:

Learn from TV's growth.  There have been an awful lot of good shows
since Star Trek, yet the new show is like something made in the
1960's.  Use some interesting camera angles.  Use characters, not
caricatures.  (If this distinction is unclear, just compare
Roddenberry's Star Trek with the second through fourth movies.)
Telepathy just doesn't work the way you've been playing it; let the
actors work something out themselves if you need it for the plots.

From a more science fictional angle, do you realize that these
characters have never been to a human planet, except in the later
movies?  The whole issue of social development has been by-passed.
All we keep getting are these fragments about big wars every few
decades.  Apparently no planet ever exploited another during the
growth of the Federation, and human society still has the same mores
on genetic engineering and artificial intelligence, not to mention
sex and drugs.  There are no rebellions to be put down by the
Federation, nor any defections.  Special effects are not tinker
toys: it is just not interesting to watch models sliding apart and
back together, or taking long leisurely looks around the new
Enterprise (first movie).  The rec room was a good diea, though it
seems like it would be awfully easy to run into a wall; it's also an
idea that's twenty years old, being in the original Star Trek
writers' guidelines.  Special effects should be used in conjunction
with genuine creative vision, as in 2001 or Blade Runner, not as a
Hugo Gernsback 1920's Popular Science "Airships of the Future"
spread.

People today are more savvy about technology; there's no reason to
be frightened of telling a story that hinges around the human
consequences of a scientific idea, such as planet-busting firepower
(no one in the future ever seems to worry about dying from
intragalactic anti-matter warfare), genetic engineering, species
extinction, and so on.  In fact, people like this kind of thing now.
To my mind, the only real social (as opposaed to artistic) service
of science fiction is that it can help people consider the moral and
ethical choices associated with technology, though it rarely does
so.  As it is, Star Trek does so considerably less than the news
programs.

And finally: scrutinize old scripts and avoid repetition.  The
problem is *very* serious.  The pilot was very repetitious, and the
second show bids fair to be even worse.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #446
Date: 13 Oct 87 1022-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #446
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Oct 87 1022-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #446
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 446

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Zelazny (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 11:44:56 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber question, comments from Sign of Choas, spoiler

     Some of the followings are slight spoilers for those who
haven't read "Sign of Choas".

     One question I feel I ought to be able to answer, but just
don't understand all the facts, is "Who wants Merle protected and
has sent the ty'iga demon to protect him?"  The obvious answer is
someone who is close to Merle, but this begs the question of why the
demon can't tell Merle, and why Mandor is willing to keep the
details secret.
     Another thought which is somewhat interesting is someone who
wants to take Merle out personally and is trying to keep Merle alive
until he/they get around to it.  (Oh course they would have to be
very arrogant.)
     Something else which doesn't make sense is the fact that the
demon had to track Merle down, hadn't even seen a picture.

The obvious choices I see, in the order of most likely, are:

a) Ghost.  "Go protect my father."  He might feel Merle would be
upset if his "young son" was trying to protect him.  He probably has
the power to entice or force the demon to try to protect Merle.

b) Corwin.  "Look out for my son."  He's going to walk his own
pattern, not sure what's going to happen or when he'll come back, so
finds a baby sitter.  But where he would have learned the spells.

c) Dara.  "Look out for my son."  Even though she appears not to
favor Merle, maybe she realizes Jurt is up to no good and arranges a
body guard.  She may know the spells.

d) Mondon.  Yes I'm starting to strech.  "Look after my younger
brother."  Same thing as Dara, trying to protect Merle from Jurt.
Clearly has the knowledge.  The big problem with this is Mondon acts
surprise when first dealing with the demon.

e) Mask?  Now I'm really streching.  "Keep him alive, until I want
to kill him" This is hard to figure, partly since it's not clear who
Mask is, an Amberite, or from the Court, a new power, or maybe a
pawn from a shadow world who has become a queen on his own.

     Does anyone have any other ideas who wants to protect Merle?
Any coments on the above?

     Have a good day.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 17:29:00 PDT (Friday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber, "Sign of Chaos", spoilers, more questions
To: greg@june.cs.washington.edu, patc%tekcrl.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET

     The following has spoilers for those who haven't read "Sign of
Choas".

     It's been pointed out I didn't read the ending of "Sign of
Chaos" very well.  The last page clears up who Mask is.  Now a
question pops up of how did Julia become Mask?  Did someone help, or
did Julia already have powers which Merle wasn't first aware of?
And why does Julia now want to kill Merle?
     When Merle gets back to Amber I hope he asks the ty'iga demon
if she noticed anything unusual about Julia.  Since the demon has
some power of "reading" magic, maybe she can clue Merle in on the
origins of Mask.

     It was also pointed out that the demon was protecting Merle
before Ghost was built, so Ghost didn't send the demon, and this
narrows the field down by one.

     Another question which bothers me is why hasn't Merle walked
his father's pattern?  Is this anything more than being a plot
device?
     Consider, he was willing to risk his life to walk the first
pattern.  One of the great teachers of the Court of Choas (I've
forgotten his name) didn't believe Merle could survive both the
Pattern and the Logrus.  So his personality, his character is one
which would want to try the second pattern. I don't believe Merle is
scared.  Sure he may have been busy the first time he went there,
but he should have drawn a trump some time later and gone back.
Taken off at the begining of a summer and been prepared to be gone
for awhile.  Anything!
     Is it possible Merle knows something about the second pattern
the reader hasn't found out yet?  Could he have already walked the
second pattern?

     So many things to have to wait for another year to find out the
answers to.  Ugh!

     Have a good day.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 21:43:58 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Amber question, comments from Sign of Choas, spoiler

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>      One question I feel I ought to be able to answer, but
> just don't understand all the facts, is "Who wants Merle
> protected and has sent the ty'iga demon to protect him?"
> The obvious choices I see, in the order of most likly, are:
>
> a) Ghost.  "Go protect my father."  He might feel Merle would
> b) Corwin.  "Look out for my son."  He's going to walk his own
> c) Dara.  "Look out for my son."  Even though she appears not to
> d) Mondon.  Yes I'm starting to strech.  "Look after my younger
> e) Mask?  Now I'm really streching.  "Keep him alive, until I
>
>      Does anyone have any other ideas who wants to protect Merle?

I would hope that the answer to your question will be found in the
next book(s) in the series.  I don't think it is Dara or Mondon.
Mask is Julia, so I doubt if it's her doing.  That leaves Corwin and
Ghostwheel from your list.  Corwin's interest may be paternal, or,
perhaps Corwin realizes that Merle is probably the only person who
could walk the new pattern (Corwin's) without being killed.  This
would put Merle in an optimum position.  Having the Logrus, the
Amber pattern, and Corwin's pattern all within him, he might become
a truly invincible person.  Thus he needs protection until he does
walk Corwin's pattern.

On the other hand, it could be Ghostwheel's doing.  Ghostwheel has
been "growing up" and perhaps has realized the importance of his
"maker" and does not want to see any harm done to him (though, I'm
not convinced that it's Ghostwheel's doing either).

Seeing the depth that Zelazny has apparently put into this new
Amber series, it could turn out to be something altogether
different.  He has a knack for inventiveness.  The demon protecting
Merle is certainly an intriguing aspect.  Perhaps those blue stones
have something to do with it?

Bob Pietkivitch
UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 00:15:41 GMT
From: rjg@ruby.tek.com (Rich Greco)
Subject: Re: Amber question, comments from Sign of Choas, spoiler

*****Spoilers*****

Actually the thought of it being Mandor or Mask had not occured to
me.

Ghost had occured to me, but seems unlikely.  Ghost would have to
know a lot about the underlying reality of the world to know about
the demons.  Also, Ghost did not know who or what the ty'iga was
when he had the opportunity to scan it in the body of Vinta Bale.  I
also eliminated Mandor for the same reason, he is either a really
good actor, or he really did not know who was following Merle.

One of the questions that puzzles me (and could shed some light on
who) is can a ty'iga travel through time?  The ty'iga seems to be
following Merle's time track and not jumping around but I have no
proof of this.  If ty'iga cannot travel through time, then whoever
sent the ty'iga did so well before any of the current problems Merle
is in.

Who falls in this category, Corwin certainly.  Corwin could have
sent the ty'iga for just the reasons you stated.  As to the spells,
well what did Corwin do at the Courts of Chaos at the end of the
first set of books.  He implied he was going to stay for awhile.
Also, don't forget that Corwin made Greyswandir.  He must know more
magic then we think he does.  Finally, what powers does he have now
that he is a pattern.  Remember that Dworkin let Oberon carry the
Jewel of Judgement.  We don't really know what powers a person who
has drawn a pattern gains.

Dara does not fall in this category, but Dara does state at the end
of the first book that she is sending someone to help Merlin.  This
statement alone is worth putting her on the list.

My last candidate is the "Universe".  Who sent the crow to Corwin
that had been waiting since the beginning of time just to be eaten
by Corwin when he drew his pattern?  It is possible that Merlin (if
he lives) will become an incredibly powerful being.  He will
eventually be attuned to 3 patterns (Pattern Amber, Pattern Logrus,
Pattern Corwin) as well as surviving stepping into the fount of
power (which is supposed to strengthen magic, etc).  Perhaps the
Universe is protecting him.  After Suhey's course was Resonances and
High Compellings.

I would like to better understand the "Real World" of Zelazny's
Amber Series, and not the Patterns.  Where do beings like the
Unicorn come from and live.  The books tend to imply that the ty'iga
comes from some place which is not Amber, and not Chaos.  Dworkin
took Oberon's body to the other side of the Void.  Zelazny has made
several statements that there are other places besides Amber and
Chaos.  What are the motives of these people?  If these places are
patterns, there must be a lot of patterns and the conflict of the
three patterns Fiona is mentioning could be a ruse.

The answers to these questions would help to answer the major
problem I have with the ty'iga, which is that it does not behave
like a commanded creatrue.  It has actually expressed love for
Merlin on several occasions.  Not the type of response you would
expect from a compelled bodygaurd.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 04:23:32 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Amber, "Sign of Chaos", spoilers, more questions

>     Another question which bothers me is why hasn't Merle walked
>his father's pattern?  Is this anything more than being a plot
>device?

It's fairly obvious that Corwin is around -- the scene in his
bedroom proves that (at least to me). Merlin has to balance two
conflicting things: his wish to find his father and his belief that
his father is out of sight for a purpose, and knows what he's doing.
I think that his loyalty to his father and his worry that he might
muck up whatever is going on if he goes searching keeps him from
going after Corwin. Corwin will show up when he is good and ready,
and is quite good at hiding otherwise. Searching for him makes no
sense if he doesn't want to be found, and if he wants to be found
he'll surface on his own.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10-OCT-1987 15:22 EST
From: Bill Millios <WLMILLIOS%GALLUA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Amber books...

People have been mentioning getting Roger Zelazny's eighth book of
Amber.  I only have up to six.  Could someone please write out a
list of all the books (with publication date, please)?

Personally, I love the series.  I first read the books at the
impression- able age of 13, and years later, although I forgot the
title of the books, as well as the author, I could still see my
conceptualizations of the hellrides, the Pattern, Amber, etc.

Speaking of the Pattern; has Zelazny ever printed a layout of the
thing?  One thing I did not really understand was that if the
Pattern was so difficult, why did it have to be so big?  Seems like
the "corridors" must have been very wide in order to take up that
much room...

Second, why didn't the beast that was guarding the Primal Pattern
attack Corwin, if it had been set there, and instructed, by Oberon?

Bill Millios
Gallaudet University
Washington, D.C.
wlmillios@gallua.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 19:13:26 EDT
From: brothers@who.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Amber and mythic roots

Well, Amber clearly has some associations with Celtic and English
mythology, just look at the names, half are Celtic, the other half
seem Saxon or Briton.

But unlike most other mythological series, in Amber Zelazny has
chosen not to imitate mythology but rather the reverse; after all
our mythology is just a distortion of the reality of Amber.

By the way, according to Locus, The Sign of Chaos was originally
intended to be the last Merlin novel, but it didn't work out, and
the series will wind up as another pentology.

Laurence

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 23:37:54 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Amber books...

>People have been mentioning getting Roger Zelazny's eighth book of
>Amber.  I only have up to six.  Could someone please write out a
>list of all the books (with publication date, please)?

The first trilogy of Amber consists of:

   Nine Princes in Amber
   The Guns of Avalon
   Sign of the Unicorn
   The Hand of Oberon
   The Courts of Chaos

There are many editions of them, including a special two volume
Science Fiction Book Club edition. They're also out in paperback, I
believe from Avon (or maybe Bantam, I forget offhand).

Three of the five books in the second trilogy are now out:

   Trumps of Doom
   Blood of Amber
   Sign of Chaos

All three are Arbor House hardbacks. Trumps of Doom and Blood of
Amber are both Avon paperbacks. Sign of Chaos is an October, 1987
hardcover, and it won't be out in paperback until next Fall, when
the ninth book is published in hardback. All of them either are or
will be available through the SFBC as well.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 22:20 EDT
From: <WWEAVER%DREW.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: homage to where homage is due...

with reference to the use of Moorcock themes in Zelazny's Amber
series, hin9@sphinx.uchicago.edu writes

>   What really clinched the Corwin-Eternal Champion bit for me were
>the names and the Corwin-Eric-Deidre triange.  The rest of it is
>just window dressing.  On the other hand, it's probably a sad
>commentary on how inbred modern fantasy has become; that similar
>settings and plot devices seem worlds apart.

Sure.  The fact that the names are so similar does suggest (to me)
that Zelazny was conciously paying homage to the Moorcock mythos.
But I don't follow the second line: in what sense are these similar
settings and plot devices 'worlds apart'?  The original reference
was that the two were similar.  Borrowing from mythos' from other
authors (or cultures) is a time tested method of giving new insight
to old ideas. Why else does every religion have a flood myth?

>   And finally, keep in mind how many of Zelazny's works are
>pastiches, adaptations, sendups or tributes:
[...some references omitted...]
>   Many (well, some) of his short stories.

Indeed.  I have a bias for the shorter story, and my favorite piece
of Zelazny's is "For A Breath I Tarry", which is available, I
believe, in the collection "Last Defender of Camelot".  I most
highly recommend it.  It combines an Adam and Eve myth, the Job
myth, the Faustus myth, and the Ancient Mariner myth.  I don't mind
that Zelazny swipes from the Bible, Goethe, and Coleridge.  They are
good sources to look to for insight.  And reading "Breath" does
provide a new insight, for me, at least, into both the Adam and Eve
myth and the Faustus myth.  (And I had thought that Adam and Eve was
all dried up...)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 87 02:10:09 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Amber, "Sign of Chaos", spoilers, more questions

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>      The following has spoilers for those who haven't read "Sign
> of Choas".
>
>      It's been pointed out I didn't read the ending of "Sign of
> Chaos" very well.  The last page clears up who Mask is.  Now a
> question pops up of how did Julia become Mask?  Did someone help,
> or did Julia already have powers which Merle wasn't first aware
> of?  And why does Julia now want to kill Merle?

You know, perhaps Julia is being forced against her will?  The dead
Julia that Merle found in her apartment must've been a close replica
from some shadow world which fooled Merle.  If Julia *is* being
forced against her will to fight Merle, then it is possible that she
really is the person behind sending the demon out to protect him.
It seems that the more we dig into the story the more questions we
turn up unanswered!

Bob Pietkivitch
UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #447
Date: 13 Oct 87 1038-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #447
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Oct 87 1038-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #447
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 447

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 19:26:04 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Star Trek transporters -- how they (can't) work

roger@homxb.UUCP (R.TAIT) writes:
> dml@NADC.ARPA writes:
>> As Vernor Vinge (_The Peace War_) and Larry Niven (slaver boxes)
>> know, a stasis field is a dandy place to put things you want to
>> keep, since nothing can harm something in stasis.
>
> Enclosing your ship in a stasis field won't do anything but turn
> you into a sitting duck.  If you've enclosed your starship in a
> stasis field for protection, someone else has to get you out.

Back to do your homework!

A slaver field does not necessarily have to totally enclose the
protected object.  Slavers had a spacesuit safety device that
generated a stasis field and left a kill switch exposed at the
surface of the suit.  (The kill switch on the slaver found on earth
in "World of Ptavvs" unfortunately had sort of worn away after a
billion years or so...but you would normally hope for rescue a bit
quicker.)  Anyway, enclosing a slaver field in another slaver field
cancelled both fields.

A Vinge bobble wasn't quite as convenient as a slaver box, in that
respect, but note that a bobble has a finite lifespan before it
"evaporates", apparently after a controllable-by-the-generator
period of time.  As long as the attacker doesn't know how long the
field has been set to exist, you've got pretty good chances on
getting away with the trick.  (Unless of course, they just tow your
vessel to a convenient local sun and drop you in.  Then whenever the
field drops, sensors report *very* sunny conditions and the field
goes up again, and again, and ...)

seh

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 05:11:19 GMT
From: dor@ufcsg.cis.ufl.edu (Doug Oosting)
Subject: Re: Star Trek transporters -- how they (can't) work

The earlier referenced posting theorized the creation of stasis
fields for transporters in Star Trek..and then wondered why they
were not used as weapons.  They were.  The Klingons developed a
stasis field generator capable of holding a starship completely
immobile (in the Star Trek Logs, I believe) at the cost of a KLINGON
warship unable to do anything else due to massive power drain.
There is the answer...short of a fleet action, would create a
deadlock benefitting neither side to use such a device.

Besides, losing the use of one ship to temporarily cancel another
does not seem to be ideal tactical sense--as a smaller Klingon CAN
hold a cruiser, but not be able to do anything else.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 20:50:02 GMT
From: RLWALD@pucc.princeton.edu (Robert Wald)
Subject: Transwarp

  When David Gerrold was at Boskone this year, he said that
Transwarp didn't work (and thus wasn't in the new Enterprise). I
didn't like this, but can live with it. (Say that there is an
increasing chance of something nasty happening when warp 10 is
exceeded, which can only be overcome by both modifications to the
superstructure and some device that only some alien races (the ones
that can go faster) have possesion of).

Rob Wald
Bitnet: RLWALD@PUCC.BITNET
Uucp: {ihnp4|allegra}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!RLWALD
Arpa: RLWALD@PUCC.Princeton.Edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Oct 87 19:18:13 GMT
From: mimsy!cvl!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ins_atwm@RUTGERS.EDU (Thomas W
From: Mcnamara)
Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #413

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>That's strictly on a rather gross scale.  The transporter is
>working at the atomic and molecular level, where anything above
>absolute 0 degrees is moving about.

You're not kidding about transporter difficulties.  But to pick a
nit...

I am definitely not a physicist but if we're discussing science I
should mention that 0 Kelvin is the state of minimum, not zero,
molecular motion (& other stored energy such as electron excitation,
I guess?).

I am more intrigued by the approach to storage of all particle
positions and velocities as a technical (not theoretical) problem;
the same directional components of position and velocity of a single
particle cannot be simultaneously determined beyond some product of
the errors and Planck's constant.  Fine.  But can they
(`theoretically', whatever that means) be reproduced so as to
recreate the state of the overall system before the scanning takes
place?-->If you can't measure the difference between the recreated
system and the original, the transporter works.  ( I don't think
this is what would happen.  I'll put off buying my Klingon stock for
a few years.)

By the way, if the scanning process destroys the original system
(meaning Shattner), what is done with energy released? -- there must
be plenty left after all (or most of ...
          `  |
       \   ` |    '
         _\ \ /'/  -
    - --_----*--=- -- -
       -  / /|\` \  -
          ' ||
        /    |      `
) those particles settle into some lump of gunk.

Also, my gut feeling is that a nanosecond is way too long.  Light
can travel about a foot in one ns and you want to stay way ahead of
the effects of your scan at one point on all the others within one
foot!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 87 16:58:08 GMT
From: lamonts@Sdsc-Sds.Arpa (Steve Lamont)
Subject: Stasis fields as a defense mechanism

In three or four recent articles it has been suggested that perhaps
a stasis field (whatever _that_ is) might be a useful device for
defense.  The obvious counterargument for use of such devices is
that if one encloses oneself in a stasis field, one can never
emerge, since in order to emerge one must be able to perform some
action and in order to perform an action, time must be running.

There are a couple of (possible) work arounds that occur to me.

Perhaps one could form a stasis field "shell" around the object.
This would then allow time to progress normally on the interior and
exterior of the shell but within the thickness of the shell, nothing
would happen.  Probably be kind of hard to see through, though...

Another work around might be to use some sort of timing mechanism.
In fact, this might be almost inherent in the principle.  After all,
it should take energy to maintain a stasis field (probably lots).
It seems to me that there might be some sort of leakage involved.
Perhaps the stasis field could decay over time (if this isn't a
contradiction in terms).

Would stasis fields obey the inverse square law?  If so, then there
would be a point at which the stasis field would be most effective
(delta t over T = 0?)  and as the field became more diffuse time
would continue to "flow," albeit more slowly.  Hmmm... what effects
would a delta t gradient have on living tissue?  Ugh.  I'm getting a
headache.

spl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 87 15:12:37 EDT
From: dml@NADC.ARPA (D. Loewenstern)
Subject: Why stasis fields are good shields -- and not bad swords

From: rochester!ritcv!spw2562@RUTGERS.EDU (Steve Wall)
>>For example, you could ring the Enterprise with stasis fields.
>>Any object trying to hit the ship would then have to go through
>>the fields -- but nothing can go through the fields, since time
>>has stopped within the fields.
>
>I can see the usefulness of that...
>
>"Aye, sir.  Engaging Stasis fie...."
>
>2000 yrs later, they're still sitting there waiting for the order
>to disengage stasis fields which will never come since the captain
>is stasisized, which they couldn't carry out because they are
>stasisized themselves, as are the controls, and the electrons in
>the computer.  And starfleet can't do anything besides sitting
>there and watching, because if they try to go in, they get
>stasisized, and remote control won't work because there is no
>electricity.

I guess I wasn't clear.  The idea isn't to put the enterprise *in* a
stasis field, but to ring it with stasis fields.  For example, you
could make each stasis field the size of a meteor (or better still,
a dust particle) and cover the outside of the Enterprise with little
stasis fields.  The Enterprise, although completely surrounded by
stasis fields, would be in real space, not "stasis", and time would
flow within it.  However, objects trying to get into the Enterprise
(e.g., photon torpedos) would need to go through stasis fields, and
of course that's impossible.

You have pointed out a primary use of stasis fields, though --
they'd make great prisons, traps for unwary Klingons, "peaceful"
weapons, etc.  Vernor Vinge has explored these ideas pretty well, I
think.

David Loewenstern
Naval Air Development Center
code 7013
Warminster, PA 18974-5000
dml@nadc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 87 15:40:21 BST
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: ST Transporters

What happens to all the LINEAR velocity?  There is The Enterprise
blatting along in orbit and Kirk etc beams down to the surface.
They now have a linear velocity along the ground of about 5000 mph.
Ouch!

Geoff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 87 15:46:16 BST
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Stasis Fields

In general Stasis fields are not described as STOPPING time, rather
just slowing it down a lot.  So those people inside only need a
timer to flip the switch the other way after a few nanoseconds(=days
on the outside).

This don't help much though because the Klingons will have pushed
you into a nearby star so when you come out of Stasis you get a
(short) shock...

Geoff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 87 15:58:06 BST
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Star Trek Transporters

I was always under the impression that the transporter exchanged two
areas of space so that ...
a. No attempts at having two objects in the same place
b. No explosions as the hole left when an object is transported
   fills up with air.

Geoff

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 16:38:00 EST
From: "Ron Jarrell" <jarrellra@vtcs1>
Subject: ST: TransWarp

I read that TransWarp was based on the Tholian Web episode, when
they found out about the alternate space that the captain vanished
into..  The "trans" part pushes them into a space where either time
runs much faster, or space is much smaller, I forget, and the "Warp"
pushes them with warp drive.. Then they pop out and have gone huge
distances further than they should have from "our" point of view.

Supposedly the 1701A is supposed to have a different transwarp
design than the Excelsior does (hence the different warp pods than
the excelsior's), but the same theory.. (just different
manufacturer).  I don't know if this will be maintained or not, but
it was in some of the design notes.

The 1701D is supposed to have a brand new type of warp drive (see
the writer's guide, I think that's where it was explained).  The
"technical" description?  Warp 10 is as fast as anything could ever
possibly go...  If the enterprise hits warp 10 (or maybe warp 10+)
it becomes a singularity.. (say bye bye.)  No explanation of HOW/WHY
it works..  (Then again, Star Trek was based on the philosophy of
Don't Explain it, Just Use it.)

Ron Jarrell
Va Tech CS

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 03:25:56 GMT
From: leonard@qiclab.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stupid uses of stasis fileds

Philip Verdieck writes:
>Boy, If I'm ever against anyone in a space battle, I hope they go
>into a stasis field....
>
>Mr Chekov: Lock Tractors on the enemy field.
>
>Mr Sulu: Put us as close to the nearest star within safety
>         tolerances.
>
>Mr Chekov: Release tractor beams.
>
>Boy would you have fun when you leave that stasis field....

I suggest you read "Skylark Three" by E.E. Smith. In it the hero
discovers a way to "generate a complete stasis in the ether". The
resulting field is spherical, and impenetrable (at least until the
next book :-).

Two ships (Seaton & Dunark) encounter a vastly superior opponent
(the Fenachrone). Realizing that they are losing, they both go into
the "stasis". Of course the enemy knows all about this gimmick.

They chop him into chutney...

(True, the above stasis field isn't a _Niven_ stasis field, but how
do _you_ know what kind of impenetrable bubble the opposition is
hiding in? Surprizes can be fatal!)

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!qiclab!leonard

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 18:35:30 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Warp speed

jarrell@vtopus (Ronald A. Jarrell) writes:
>Classic Warp (ala Original series), TransWarp (ala Excelsior) and
>New Warp, from TNG..  Supposedly New Warp max is Warp 10, at which
>point the ship becomes a singularity, which should destroy it.. So
>at Warp 9.8 they should have shot way the hell past Federation
>space...

I don't think that Warp 10 is infinite speed. If you accept the
"sub/other- space" theory, with a higher speed of light, I think
that Warp 10 is the speed of light in otherspace. I could be wrong,
though (quite probably).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 12:07 EDT
From: <LEE_JES%CTSTATEU.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Transwarp Drive and speeds Faster Than Warp Ten

There has recently been a volume of mail concerning the Transwarp
Drive and the insane "Warp Ten" limit on the new Star Trek.

Although the Old New Enterprise (NCC-1701-A) has transwarp drive
(and a "fairly decent" explanation is given in "Mr. Scott's Guide to
the Enterprise") there is apparently some problem with it, according
to David Gerrold in a talk given at Boskone XXIV.  This seems
illogical at the least, since it worked before it was sabotaged, but
that's the only explanation we've been given.

If it ruins the story, I suppose, the technology is disposable.  (Cf
the lack of the shuttlecraft in "The Enemy Within".)

As to Warp Ten being the limit: In the ST:TNG Writers' Guide, Gene
Roddenberry writes:

   Warp 10 is the physical limit of the universe -- beyond that
   normal time-space relationships do not exist and a ship at that
   velocity may simply _cease_to_exist_.

Of course, this ignores the many times when the Enterprise was taken
over by the numerous alien life (and machine) forms who seemed to
have a fascination with making the Enterprise go Warp 11.  Nor does
it explain why the Enterprise shakes at speeds close to Warp 10.
(Sort of like my car when it tries to go over 80.)

Another thing which I find interesting is the following quote from
the Writers' Guide:

.. because the transporter is a line-of-sight device, it is
occasionally possible that a landing party may be unable to beam
back to the Enterprise immediately.

If this is so, HOW DID THEY BEAM INTO THE ALIEN SHIP?  If this is
the case, beam-downs can only occur out in the open, and
ship-to-ship transportation would not be possible unless the
receiving ship had a transporter reception facility.

Even then, the transporter is just not feasible.  As in the novel
"Spock Must Die", the original body is completely destroyed, the
first time anyone uses the transporter.  I would propose a
modification of warp technology in which the space in the
transporter chamber was "warped" to touch the destination - and the
personnel would walk across the warp demarcation line.  Somehow,
this seems much more reasonable than scanning the material to be
transported, converting it into energy, sending it to the
destination, and (without any machinery at the destination) convert
it back to matter.

But that's just my opinion.

Jeffrey S. Lee
Connecticut State University
Lee_JeS@CtStateU      (BITNET)
(203) 485-9249 (AT&T Net)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #448
Date: 13 Oct 87 1049-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #448
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Oct 87 1049-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #448
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 448

Today's Topics:

              Books - May (3 msgs) & Tolkien (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 19:17:44 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Julian May

About 100 or so postings back, someone mentioned Julian May's
"Pliocene Exile" series.  The series (for those who don't know)
consists of four fairly hefty volumes, and is highly addictive, so
if you haven't read it and would like to, I'd recommend doing at a
time when you can afford to go for several days without eating or
sleeping (:-)).

On the whole, I really liked the books.  Some things bothered me
about the consistancy (or lack thereof) of the characters, and I
think Julian May threw in an extra plotline, just to get some more
books, as well as sell some older ones (the new plotline brings back
characters from earlier works by the same author-- sorry to be so
roundabout, I don't want to spoil anything), but the story was well
plotted, and the mythos well thought out.

My question is, what are the titles in which Julian May originally
writes about Jack the Bodiless, his brother Marc, and Diamond Mask,
as well as the Psychic Revolution?  Also, and excuse my ignorance,
is Julian May male or female?  My guess would be male from reading
this series, but I'm not sure...

Hal

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 03:21:48 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Julian May

pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz) writes:
>My question is, what are the titles in which Julian May originally
>writes about Jack the Bodiless, his brother Marc, and Diamond Mask,
>as well as the Psychic Revolution?

I was under the impression that these books were to be prequels.
She publishes first in England - Pan Books.  So, if you know of a
Yankee store that caries Pan Books, you'll probably see them there a
good 6 months before an American publisher gets ahold of them.  I
noticed this when the last 2 books came out.

>  Also, and excuse my ignorance, is Julian May male or female?  My
>guess would be male from reading this series, but I'm not sure...

Ummm.  I always thought she was female.  I was impressed with the
way she treats male characters - most female authors don't do as
nearly well, especialy with the childhood background on a male
character.

I seem to recall that her picture was on the back flap of one of the
SFBC hardcover editions, but I might be mistaken.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 02:28:45 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Julian May

>About 100 or so postings back, someone mentioned Julian May's
>"Pliocene Exile" series.  The series (for those who don't know)
>consists of four fairly hefty volumes

Now five. "Intervention" is out from Tor as a hardcover, and is a
link novel between her first series and the series she's going to be
starting.

>Also, and excuse my ignorance, is Julian May male or female?  My
>guess would be male from reading this series, but I'm not sure...

Female. And a master class costumer, too.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 10:14:16 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

Gordon E. Banks writes:
>Peter Granger writes:
>>So, given all this, why do people think so highly of it?  Simply
>>put, because it was the first.  As far as I know (not all that
>>far, I'll admit) Tolkien was one of the first fantasy writers of
>>the modern era.
>
>If many people felt the same way you did about Tolkien, he would
>have been the last!  I know more people who put Tolkien as their
>favorite author, (myself included) than people who did not like the
>books.  No author is universal, and everyone to his own tastes.
>Your critique shows you have missed many points and oversimplified,
>probably because you couldn't maintain enough interest analyze more
>deeply.  I could point them out, but other readers of the net may
>find the exercise tedious.

When I first read Tolkien in 1972 (I can still remember reading the
beginning of _The Hobbit_ and thinking it was a children's fairy
tale.  If it hadn't been so highly recomemded I wouldn't have gotten
past the first page.)  I really liked LOTR; so much so that I reread
certain parts over several times.  However, please note that I
didn't like to reread all of it, just certain parts.  These parts
were generally the ones that Peter Grainger claimed were the best
part of the book (i.e. the battles and several others).

I haven't read any of LOTR for quite a few years, but thinking back
on it I must in general agree with almost everything Peter said
about it.  It is boring in many areas and many of the characters
seem stereotyped.

Notice that I said "*seem* stereotyped".  Someone once said of the
film "Casablanca": "It's a great movie, except for all those
cliches." (I think it was Ingrid Bergman who said this.)  What I'm
trying to say is that when Tolkien wrote LOTR, elves and dwarves
were not stereotyped.  Everyone copying him made the stereotypes.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 20:40:33 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>I have to agree with your first point.  It does seem untouchable by
>the net, while everything else is subject to opinions from
>"horrendous" to "magnificent."  Why should it be that LOTR gets
>only good reviews?

Since this question, and the accompanying philippic against Tolkien
(quoted below) seems to have elicited little or no response, I
suppose I will have to offer an apology for LOTR.  The basic answer
to your question is that Tolkien is revered by nearly all fantasy
readers simply because he is best writer, in his genre, our century
has produced.  The rest of this posting is just commentary on this
text.

It would be hard to come up with a single characteristic excellence
for Tolkien, so I will list several.  First, Middle Earth is the
most deeply imagined fantasy world in all of literature.  It is the
fruit of a lifetime's avocation, often pursued to the detriment of
his professional studies, of an Oxonian philologist.  This world has
heights, and depths and vistas fading into the unutterable West, and
lore and legends stretching back over ten thousand years of history.
It is informed by most of the great Western mythic traditions:
Greek, Germanic, and Finno-Ugric.  The source material on which LOTR
draws is still appearing by the volume.

Second, Tolkien knows how to write.  Unfortunately, most SF writers
don't.  The prose of LOTR is completely adequate for its purposes.
It is no easy matter, in this age in which lofty diction is
identified with archaism or affectation, to write dialogue worthy of
heroes.  At an age when I am reluctantly compelled to give up many
of the favorites of my childhood, I am grateful for a writer who
never makes me wince with embarrassment.

Third, Tolkien's world is deeply informed by his moral vision.  Not
many writers can accomplish this without degenerating into polemics.
C.S.Lewis and Ursula LeGuin, perhaps, but both, at times, preach.
Not so Tolkien.

Fourth and finally, there is the matter of plot.  For fear of
spoiling the story for those who have not read it, I will not
elaborate on this.  But it is a remarkable thing, indeed.

>Granted, some of the battles are interesting

Good point.  I forgot to mention the battles.

>(no, I don't read a book just for the action, but of all the things
>that can make a book interesting [plot, characterization,
>exploration of ideas, etc.] this is the only one to be found in
>Tolkien), but other than that, it just drags.

I have already commented on plot.  As for characterization, I don't
know a better portrait of a hero than Aragorn; the transformation of
the hobbits over the course of the book is worth noting,
particularly in the case of Sam.  And the struggle for the soul of
Boromir, and the struggle for the will of Smeagol-Gollum... but
enough.  I'm not quite sure what is meant by "exploration or ideas"
so I can't tell whether LOTR has it.

>Hobbits are hobbits (cowardly and comfort-seeking, until courage is
>*really* needed), Elves are elves (noble and fair, wise and brave),
>Dwarves are dwarves (strong, steadfast, loyal, suspicious), etc.

This is grossly unfair.  At no point in the book could Frodo, Sam,
Merry, or Pippin be described as cowardly.  Wood-elves threw Bilbo's
companions into prison out of general anti-dwarf racism.  Dwarves
are more of a piece, but they are capable of uncharacteristic
behavior- like Gimli's love for Galadriel.

>If you know what race a character is, you know all about him.

Ridiculous.  Are Frodo, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, and Ted Sandyman
isomorphic?  Do you see no difference between Wormtongue and
Faramir?

>The only interesting ones are the orcs.

Curiously, the only _uninteresting_ characters are the orcs.  They
all act the same.

>The plot is dull.  Straight "good vs. evil" and nothing more.

Yes, good vs. evil is the moral foundation of all conflict in Middle
Earth.  But this does not mean that individuals, or realms, or races
are all good or all bad.  To paraphrase C.S.Lewis, it is a mistake
to think that, just because the squares are black and white, all
pieces are bishops, confined to squares of one color.

>No matter what happens, something will happen to help the good
>guys.  And how many times can Tolkien pull the "at the last moment,
>a miracle occurs" line?

There are no miracles in the LOTR.  The unexpected instances of good
fortune are nearly all attributable to the difficulties inherent in
the practice of evil.

>The action is dull.  Make that non-existent.  Except for the
>above-mentioned battle scenes, it's all talk, and not very good
>talk at that.

You must be hard, indeed, to please if you found the flight to the
ford dull, or the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, or the mental
duel between Gandalf and Saruman (just talk, as you say, but very
good talk).

>Tolkien's descriptions are beautiful.

Yes, I agree.

>...If he'd skipped the overworked descriptions, "Lord of the Rings"
>would have been a duology.

I doubt that one sentence in fifty is devoted to scenery, but if so,
what of it?  Tolkien is trying to invest an imaginary world with the
trappings of reality.  This can't be done without a fair amount of
physical description.

>And, worst of all, the constant singing.  Thank gods the songs and
>poems are in italics, so I can tell what to skip.  I read them for
>a while, but then realized they were just filler.

Here you have a point.  Tolkien is not a very good poet.  However,
the poems do serve a role in character delineation.  If I were
Tolkien's editor, I suppose I would leave them in, while silently
wishing they were better.

>So, given all this, why do people think so highly of it?  Simply
>put, because it was the first.  As far as I know (not all that far,
>I'll admit) Tolkien was one of the first fantasy writers of the
>modern era.

Your disclaimer is well taken.  Tolkien had many predecessors.  You
might try reading Haggard, Dunsany, Macdonald, Morris, and Eddison
for starters.  He is better than any of them, though they are all
better than the run-of-the-mill fantasies under which the press
groans today.

>The problem, for those of us who don't like Tolkien, is that we've
>read the later books as well.  Being descended from the LOTR-style
>fantasy, they are naturally improvements upon it.

If only it were so!  Unfortunately, later does not always mean
better.  Four hundred years of playwrights have tried to improve on
Shakespeare, to very little effect.  I hope it will not take as long
for the ages to rear up another Tolkien.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 17:04:05 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!granger@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Granger )
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>>So, given all this, why do people think so highly of it?  Simply
>>put, because it was the first.  As far as I know (not all that
>>far, I'll admit) Tolkien was one of the first fantasy writers of
>>the modern era.
>
>If many people felt the same way you did about Tolkien, he would
>have been the last!  I know more people who put Tolkien as their
>favorite author, (myself included) than people who did not like the
>books.  No author is universal, and everyone to his own tastes.
>Your critique shows you have missed many points and oversimplified,
>probably because you couldn't maintain enough interest analyze more
>deeply.  I could point them out, but other readers of the net may
>find the exercise tedious.

  This is just the kind of thing the original poster was talking
about.  While people on the net feel perfectly free to criticize or
even condemn works by Heinlein, Feist, Bear, Card, May, Asimov,
Eddings, Bradley, Morris, Herbert, etc., it is considered a
violation of some unwritten rule to criticize Tolkien.  The remarks
I made about LOTR could have been made with impunity about any other
work, drawing no more than a few remarks of "I didn't see it that
way."  But when I explained that I found LOTR to be lacking in the
areas that make fantasy enjoyable (to me), I am told flatly that I
am wrong (and probably stupid as well).

  Now, if many people felt the way I did about Tolkien, *when it was
first written* fantasy indeed may never have grown to what it is
today.  And, in all fairness, if I had read Tolkien first, before
reading others that I found more appealing, I probably would have
considered it to be the most amazing thing I'd ever seen.  However,
I read the later, and (in my opinion) better works of fantasy first,
and therefore find LOTR lacking.

  You claim that I have oversimplified and missed many points.  This
may be true.  The book is tedious enough without analyzing each line
for its symbolic and metaphorical meaning.  When you say that *I*
couldn't maintain an interest, I counter by saying that it is the
job of the author to produce a work which will hold the reader's
interest, and not the reader's task to force himself to read a
tiresome tale when he doesn't find it enjoyable.  Not that any
author has a duty to please me, but I shouldn't be expected to
praise his work if he doesn't.

  Your point that there are a large number of people who liked the
books, and would put Tolkien as their favorite author (as reflected
by the recently published poll results) is probably valid.  However,
it does not in any way affect my own estimate.  As has been stated
here and elsewhere so many times before, popularity need not reflect
quality.  Among my friends, I can count several who love a wide
variety of fantasy and sf, but who didn't like (or won't bother
with) LOTR, and at least two who hate fantasy and sf on principle,
but would defend LOTR with all their might.

  Again, let me say, that while I respect Tolkien and his work for
all the good things they made possible, I believe that there are
more enjoyable works, and that we all have the right to criticize
Tolkien just as we would any other.

  Now back to the original question, just what is it, aside from
tradition, that makes people think "Lord of the Rings" is so great?
This is an honest question.  I really want to know.

Pete Granger
{ulowell,decvax}!cg-atla!granger

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 13:07:29 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

   The first time I picked up LoTR, I quit after about 90 or so
pages.  The book started really slow ...  Background for the Rings
was interesting, party was tedious, so was the departure, and
subsequent journeying for the little buggers...

   I also found some of the Elven poems and songs a little grinding.
Not because they were horrible, just because they were boring.

   However, once I started reading the series again (From the Barrow
wight on) I really enjoyed it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #449
Date: 13 Oct 87 1100-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #449
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Oct 87 1100-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #449
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 449

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Neutronium (3 msgs) &
                               Time Dilation & Psi &
                               What is SF &
                               Esotericon V &
                               Markets & FTL &
                               Stereotypes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 12:29:17 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a terrorist weapon

anthony@reed.UUCP (Anthony) writes:
>       This brings me to a related interesting idea.  If you
>generated a black hole in the gram range (don't ask me how), it
>would be small enough to have essentially no ability to get new
>mass, and penetrate almost anything.

This idea has been used in two books I know of.

   The Doomsday Effect by Thomas Wren.

and

   The Space Eater by David Langford.

The first is a firly predictable, "The earth is doomed" and can only
be saved by a scientist; his female assistant; a hard-headed
businessman; and a computer wizard, type of story.

There are a few nice twists, and a couple of bad technical errors.
(At one point it is seriously suggested to destroy a couple of
million tons of black hole with a few pounds of anti-matter.)

The second book is in a completley different class. The society
depicted in the first part of the book is very like that in the
"cyperpunk" type of novel, but the main character is a soldier in
the elite peacekeeping forces.

The story concerns what happens to him after he is voluntered for a
special mission involving a trip to a lost colony.

Star travel is by means of a wormhole in space. The catch is that
the largest safe wormhole is 2cm in diameter.

Highly recomended reading. (I gave it **** on the 5 star scale)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 15:10:23 GMT
From: dg-rtp!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a terrorist weapon

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
> This idea [...of a black hole orbiting partly within the earth...]
> has been used in two books I know of.  [...in The Doomsday
> Effect...]  There are a few nice twists, and a couple of bad
> technical errors.  (At one point it is seriously suggested to
> destroy a couple of million tons of black hole with a few pounds
> of anti-matter.)

Good heavens, that was the *least* of the blunders.  Saying this
book has "a couple of bad technical errors" is like saying that New
York City has a couple of inhabitants.  Despite the fact that Bob
didn't particularly like this book, I don't think he was harsh
enough on it by half.  At a drastic blunder every couple of pages,
I'd rate this a -3 on a scale of 0 to 5.

Wren doesn't know what any bright, interested high-school student
ought to know about orbital mechanics, let alone black holes.  Just
a sampling:

   He gets the orbit of the black hole all wrong, by forgetting that
   for an orbit that intersects the surface of the earth, the earth
   can no longer be treated as a point mass, and then bludgeons you
   over the head with this mistake by mentioning it every few
   paragraphs for the rest of the book.

   He has the long obsolete the-asteroid-belt-is-a-near-solid-
   swarm-of-rocks disease I had thought stamped out in the fifties.

   His proposed method of getting rid of the black hole (before the
   anti-matter, that is) is ludicrous, and shows further lack of
   understanding of orbital mechanics.  (He attempts to capture the
   black hole in an asteroid, and the calculations used to determine
   whether this is feasible neglect the relative velocities of hole
   and rock, clearly indicating that he doesn't think this is
   relevant.  Ghack.)

   The main character wonders what to do with a cheap method of
   manufacturing antimatter.  After long and tedious thought, comes
   up with the notion of power production.  Brilliant.

   He describes the ablation disk of the black hole as streaming
   backwards because of the high speed... when the hole is in
   free-fall, in space.  I mean come ON guy!

And all that is just a *sample*.  The only reason I finished this
turkey was to chortle over the awful mangling of the science
involved.  The fact that Jim Baen claims that this "reads like a
cross between Hogan and Heinlein" is a bad joke.

Coincidentally, the notion of black holes orbiting partly within the
earth was also used by Hogan, in "Thrice Upon a Time", a book
infinitely more to be recommended than "The Doomsday Effect".  It
worked for me despite the fact that it is a time-travel story, and I
hate time-travel stories.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 22:50:50 GMT
From: franka@mntgfx.mentor.com (Frank A. Adrian)
Subject: Re: Neutronium as a terrorist weapon

anthony@reed.UUCP (Anthony) writes:
>This brings me to a related interesting idea.  If you generated a
>black hole in the gram range (don't ask me how), it would be small
>enough to have essentially no ability to get new mass, and
>penetrate almost anything.

A better weapon would be a couple of grams of anti-matter held in a
low (very low) leakage magnetic bottle (quite possible using
high-temp superconductors (coming soon to a hardware store near
you)).  Just think!  No muss, no fuss, direct energy conversion of a
few grams of matter.  Quite a nice little terrorist weapon.  Only
drawback is that you have to make sure the weapon is used before too
many anti-particles leak and that the mag. bottle doesn't fail.

Frank Adrian
Mentor Graphics, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 01:11:32 GMT
From: brun@husc4.harvard.edu (todd brun)
Subject: Re: Time-Dilation

drw@culdev1.UUCP (Dale Worley) writes:
> brun@husc4.HARVARD.EDU (todd brun) writes:
>> A valid question remains, does it make any sense to talk about
>> the whole Universe accelerating?  According to Mach's Principle,
>> which is more a philosophical point of view than a testable
>> theory, motion makes no sense except against the background of a
>> stationary universe.
>
> I was reading some book that discussed Mach's principle, and it
> noted that GR does *not* satisfy Mach's principle.  In particular,
> spinning the entire universe around you produces different
> "centrifugal forces" than spinning you around with the universe
> stationary...

I admit, I'm no expert on General Relativity; it's not really my
field of physics, except by curiousity.  And I don't know what book
you were reading.  But it is my understanding that Einstein tried to
justify parts of his theory with Mach's Principle, though it
actually enters relatively little into GR.  In a sense, GR agrees
with Mach's principle, and in a sense it supersedes it.  Altogether,
Mach's principle doesn't add too much to GR, which is an extremely
complex and subtle theory [i.e. too subtle for me :-)].  I refer you
to my own sources: _Gravitation and Spacetime_ by Hans C. Ohanian
and _Gravitation_ by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler.

Todd Brun
Physics Department
Harvard University

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 11:58
From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Wanted: Good Acronyms, cheap; I
From: don't *want* to work on 'SWAT')
Subject: Psi stories

   Getting into the Psi story bit a little late...

   It's always been one of my favorite SF "sub-genres", for some
reason.  I suppose this was partly because some of the earliest
truely memorable SF books I read (stolen illegally from my father's
bookshelves) were "Psi stories".

    Some of my favorites are:

      James Schmitz's Telzy stories.  There are a few "novel"
      versions out (The Telzy Toy, The Lions Game), and a number of
      short stories (some of which were patched together to form the
      novels), most in old Analogs.  I had quite a crush on Telzy as
      a teenager, and it's still one of my favorite names.  Also,
      The Witches of Karres is a rather cute Psi novel, though
      hardly heavy-weight speculation.

      My all-time favorite psi novel: James Blish's Jack of Eagles.
      I re-read it recently, and it's not as good as my childhood
      memory... but still worth reading.

      Lester del Rey's Pstalemate; rather dirty/gritty feeling
      universe and setup, whereas most tend to be somewhat overly
      neat and squeaky clean.  Psi is fatal, unless you can learn to
      control it... and it ain't easy.  The protagonist gets rather
      desperate.

      Ted White's Phoenix Prime (and sequels Sorceress of Qar and
      the third which I can't recall... Star Wolf?  Something-wolf,
      anyway).  Short psi awakening bit at the beginning which I
      really like, leading into the protagonist's exile into a
      psi-neutral world where he hangs out with these people and
      makes a son with the aforementioned Sorceress, who ends up
      being psi himself and follows his father back to Earth.  Lots
      of adventure stuff, not much psi... but I still recall it very
      fondly (though I own all three, I haven't read 'em in at least
      15 years).

      Someone already mentioned Zenna Henderson's Pilgrimmage and
      The People: No Different Flesh; both collections of her short
      stories about The People... refugees from a destroyed planet
      who crashed in various place around Earth, and have tried
      various ways of dealing with humans (some fearfully hiding
      their differences, others using them constructively, etc.).
      Most take place on Earth in the various towns and areas, often
      from the point of view of humans (some of whom have previous
      experience with the People, and others who are just
      discovering them).  Some take place on their Home planet, or
      deal with the journey itself or the landings.  Excellent
      stories, all of them.  Some of the stories were adapted into a
      really poor movie some years ago.

      I'm sure I'll think of more...  :-)

Dave Butenhof
ZKO2-3/K06
Digital Equipment Corp.
110 Spitbrook Road
Nashua NH 03062
DEC ENET:clt::butenhof
ARPANET:BUTENHOF%CLT.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM
UUCP:{decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!clt.dec.com!butenhof

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 15:17:51 PDT (Thursday)
Subject: Re: What is SF
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

> Let's hear how some other people define SF, and (really the same
> question) how they differientate it from other genera (fantasy,
> horror, thriller, etc.).

   OK. Here is my three cents worth.  It seems to me that when you
talk about S.F. the main word in the title is "SCIENCE".  My
definition of S.F. is a story that depicts a world where the level
of technological acheivement is higher than is currently found on
Earth.  Fantasy, on the other hand, deals with worlds that have not
acheived our current level of technological sophistication, with the
added proviso that they must also contain something that clearly
identifies them as not historical (i.e. the presence of Magic or the
fact that the story takes place on some world that isn't Earth).

...Now all we have to do is define technological achievement.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 19:54:47 GMT
From: rickheit@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Esotericon V

   Just got today a letter from Carolyn Whitney, chairperson of next
year's Esotericon, with most recent, up to date information, so here
it is..
    This is to announce next year's Esotericon, a convention of, by,
and for the esoteric. Emphasis is on the occult and religion, with a
great many discussion groups and practica on subjects such as
divination, the Tarot, healing, and more. Set for Jan 15,16,17 of
1988. Dealer's room is sold out. The hotel this year is

   Jetport Holiday Inn,
   100 Spring St.
   Elizabeth, NJ 07201
   (201) 355-1700

For more info, write:
   Esotericon V
   PO Box 22775
   Newark, NJ 07101
   (201) 743-7647

Watch this space for more info...

Erich Rickheit
85 Gershom Ave, #2
Lowell, MA 01854
UUCP: ...!ulowell!hawk!rickheit
AT&T: 617-453-1753

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 87 19:14 EDT
From: Guy Caruthers <guyc@PEGASUS.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #405

>Oh, I like the scenes of derring do in dungeons alright. The
>wandering across strange and interesting lands, but mostly I enjoy
>the country fair.
>
>If you have read an particularly interesting scene of a market or
>fair, I'd be grateful for the pointer.

In Anne McCaffery's (sp?) Dragonrider books, there are many
"gathers" that might suit you.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 18:28:20 GMT
From: dlm@cuuxb.att.com (Dennis L. Mumaugh)
Subject: Re: FTL travel

The most ingenious FTL travel was described in the Capt.  Grimes
adventures by A.  Bertram Chandler:

The ship travels at the speed of light and at the same time is sent
back into time.  Thus while it takes a longtime to go anywhere it
also takes no time at all.  Also it seems that the characters don't
age during this process.

Some plots involve the problems with this if the rate of regression
doesn't match the rate of progression.

Dennis L. Mumaugh
Lisle, IL
...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,lll-crg}!cuuxb!dlm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 87 12:49 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter)
Subject: stereotypes

From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay) writes:

> I must say, I also tire of the 'stereotyped character syndrome".
> In a fantasy world setting, there are only so many 'types' to
> choose from.  After so many years and so many stories/books, what
> do you expect?

Something NEW.

I really must take issue with this type of thinking.  Why is it that
people believe that in a certain setting, you can only do certain
things with certain characters?  Larry Niven's fantasy novel "The
Magic Goes Away" ruthlessly dissects the fantasy genre and questions
the motives of these archetypical fantasy characters and in doing
so, wrote one of the better fantasy novels I've ever read.
Believing that a genre is limited only to genre characters is
absurd.  In the Sixties, Stan Lee imbued his super-heroes with some
rudimentary human characteristics and revolutionized the super-hero
industry by saying, "No, there's more to these characters than guys
in funny costumes hitting each other!"  The 'New Wave' SF authors
decided to look a bit more into their character's minds and thus
turned over years of assumptions about what an SF story should be.

> Anthony is, in my mind, one of the most maligned writers in the
> field.  But I rather doubt this bothers him, since he is also the
> Most Read, beating in current popularity Every Other SF&F author
> out there, even the old time heavy-weights.  Could it be that,
> rather than being 'meaningful', 'significant' or 'relavent' his
> books are simple 'enjoyable'?

Another premise I hate.  "Everyone likes it so it *must* be good..."
Who was it who said "If 40,000 people say a foolish thing, it is
still a foolish thing"?  That's true here.  If what you say is true,
than why don't you read Judith Krantz novels and Big Thick
Historical Romances?  They're much more popular.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 13-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #450
Date: 13 Oct 87 1121-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #450
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Oct 87 1121-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #450
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 13 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 450

Today's Topics:

       Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 87 11:04:47 -0700
From: Jim Hester <hester@Q2.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

I had heard, from a forgotten source, that the transwarp drive
involved an alternate universe similar to that presented in "Mirror,
Mirror."  Time in the alternate universe runs at a different rate,
and the two universes connect uniformly point-to-point.  Thus the
ship can pop into the alternate universe, proceed at regular warp
drive, and then pop back at the other end, with less total elapsed
time (in our universe: the people on the ship should still age the
same).

Obviously, there are a million other holes with this, which I won't
even try to enumerate.  But, then, nobody could ever accuse Star
Trek of being scientifically accurate in any case.

My favorite peeves with the pilot:

On what did Captain Picard base his deduction that the creatures
were mates?  It was just as plausible (more, to me) that they were
merely of the same race, the one coming to free one of it's kind.
Of cource, Picard might have noticed that one was light pink where
the other wass light blue, but that scene was after the deduction
was made.

When I see the saucerless Enterprise, I can't help being reminded of
Nell ("The ship with the biggest tits") from "Battle Beyond the
Stars".

What's to keep the navigator from falling alseep in that excuse for
a chair he sits in?

I can understand, from his heritage, why Worf might draw a phasar on
Q.  But what was he doing WEARING a phasar on the Enterprise's
BRIDGE??  This strikes me as completely contrary to the philosophy
of the Federation.  I might allow a redshirt or two on the bridge to
be armed, but not the crew in general.  In the old series, the
phasars were generally locked up.  Have the rules been changed,
since this new ship is supposed to spend more time in unexplored
space?  I don't like the message it gives to races they meet.

During the mock-trial, Picard made it perfectly clear to his people
that his policy with respect to Q's antics was to remain peaceful
despite any provocation.  His head of security (the one person who
should be an EXPERT at following the Captain's orders without
question) promptly punches out a court bailiff.  Even more
surprising, Picard never so much as reprimands her for this!

Picard to communications officer on the bridge: "Contact [what's his
name] on the planet, and continue transmitting greetings on all
frequencies".  That's some trick!  I suppose they could multiplex a
signal on one frequency, but it would kind of defeat the purpose of
making the greeting as easy to understand as possible.

Apparently the new Enterprise can beam people through it's own
shields, a feat which was impossible in the old series.  This seems
a little too good to be true.

Don't get the wrong idea; I liked it.  These little inconsistencies
just kind of bugged me.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 23:20:17 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!jimb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Brunet)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>The telepath in the mini-skirt has to go, though.  She's not very
>good, at least in the part she's given, and most of her bits are
>replays of the worst parts of Vulcan mind-melding ("... great ...
>pain ... loneliness ... sorrow ...") alternated with sluttish
>one-liners when she's not groping someone' brains.  I find her

My reaction was that she was a channeler for an x-hundred year-old
actress named Shirley McLaine(sp?) who lived at the time of The
Original Vision.

Jim Brunet

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 16:42:04 GMT
From: m1b@rayssd.ray.com (M. Joseph Barone)
Subject: Q is a Bully For Picking on Enterprise

Q stops the Enterprise with his reconditioned Tholian Web and tells
the bridge crew that he doesn't want them to proceed any farther
because they will spread their nastiness to virgin territory.  Now,
the Enterprise hasn't reached Farpoint yet, right?  When they
finally arrive, we see the Hood already in orbit and a starbase
packed with Federation people, like Ryker and Crusher.  Why didn't Q
beat up on the Hood?

Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM
{cbosgd, gatech, ihnp4, linus, mirror, uiucdcs}!rayssd!m1b

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 87 12:23 EDT
From: WOTAN%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: ST:TNG

Here's my $0.02 on ST:TNG:

   Why do we always need to have villains in ST:*?  In ST we had the
Klingons and the Romulans.  Now that the Klingons have abandoned the
Dark Side of the Force (what happened to the Romulans, btw?), we
have the Ferrengi, which, I'm told, are furry creatures with big
ears.  Aren't the life forms that no man/person/one has met before
enough?

   Re Lt.(?) Troi: I feel pain... sorrow... anguish... I feel
Neilsen ratings going down and sponsors turning away if she is not
dealt with promptly.  I do hope that once (soon) she feels so much
pain... anguish... etc... that she just passes away.  Or else a
phaser could do the job as well.

   The Klingon seems interesting.  I'd like to see more of him.  I
don't think I'll miss Vulcans much (not with Data going through the
same rigamarole about emotions and the lack thereof) but I do miss a
strong figure in Engineering.  Maybe ST:TNG could be set in a sort
of "The Mote in God's Eye" universe, where all engineers come from
the Nova Scotia planet (I'm not sure about the name) and, aye, wear
kilts and the such.

   The detachable saucer section: What do these people think the
Enterprise is?  A Mack truck or something?  I bet we are soon going
to see Enterprise models sold at toy stores, comprising of a main
hull (?) and a saucer, each part sold separately.

Enough gripe.  On the five star scale, I'd give the pilot episode
[** 1/2] to [***].  Not bad for an average episode, but one does
expect more from the pilot.
   Let us see how it all turns out.  For one thing, we can rest
assured that they will keep on boldly splitting infinites that no
one has split before!

George Barbanis
UMass -- Amherst

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 87 20:34:58 EDT
From: Ross Patterson <A024012@RUTVM1>
Subject: WPIX: The Final Frontier

    As M-M-Max would say, "P-P-Pullleezzee!".

    "Star Trek: The New Generation" is a real lollapaloosa.  The
cast includes:

   1 Standard Issue Blind-Guy-With-Cybernetic-Eyes;
   1 Pompous Shakespearean-Actor Captain;
   1 Pacified Klingon (No! Yes! Pacified!);
   1 Decrepit, old Doctor ("I'm not dead yet.");
   1 Cute, young, widowed Doctor-Who-Wants-To-Be-Near-Her-Captain
     (did Nurse Chapel get a promotion?);
   1 Central Casting Android-With-Stupid-Name;
   1 Talking Starship ("If a Honda can talk...";
     "The White Zone is for loading and unloading of starships.");
   400+ Regulation Expendable Crewpeople ("He's dead, Jim.");
   Assorted Spouses-And-Children-To-Make-Situations-More-Deadly.

   (Ya could almos' hear Slim Pickens rattlin' that one off.)

   And plot!  Pompous Captain (well, I guess "Jean Luc Picard" isn't
much worse of a name than "James Tiberius Kirk") arrives on board
his new vessel.  On board her, at the beginning of a 10 year
mission, without the aid of Number One (Who?), they encounter an
alien (Boo!  Hiss!).  Strange, the alien has put out a net to stop
them (anybody remember what episode that was stolen from?).  The
Captain, cool and aloof as ever, announces that they're putting the
women and children ashore in the lifeboat, and taking the ship into
battle.  After an interminable ride to the Battle Bridge, they
accelerate to Warp 9.2 (Wow!  Bet the Excelsior can't go that
fast!).  Mon Captain weighs the situation carefully, and jettisons
the lifeboat while firing a few photon torpedos for cover.
Separation complete, the Battle-Girded Enterprise turns to face her
attacker, and SURRENDERS!!!  And let's not forget the
Interstellar-Jellyfish-Cum-Transporter.

    Like all bad SF, there were the obligatory "Stop and watch the
expensive special effects" sequences.  I thought Star Trek had
learned that lesson with V'ger.

    Oh well.  It's still better than Bonanzastar Gallactica.  Even
though Adama croaked.  I never did like the idea that human
civilazation came from the Lords of COBOL.

Ross Patterson
Rutgers University

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 12:46 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Dan Parmenter)
Subject: ST:TNG idiocies...

Everyone has been praising the fact that Dr. McCoy puts in an
appearance, while overlooking one basic, albeit unfortunate truth.
DeForest Kelly isn't going to live forever.  If he were to die next
week, he could no longer appear in the ST movie continuity, hence
the McCoy character would no longer appear either.  You can see that
this would lead to some problems, since 'Bones' is shown alive and
well in 'the future' of ST:TNG.  Since Trekkies are notoriously
intolerant of any deviation from the status quo, I doubt that they'd
accept a different actor in the part, and we'll end up with some
contrived explanation of how he's "gone off to be a simple country
doctor".  Typical Hollywood foresight.

Another problem with ST:TNG are the SFX which range from dazzling to
pathetic, sometimes in a single shot.  Why spend the money to do
lovely matte work, on FILM and then add in cheap looking video
effects on top?  Look at the sequence in the opener where the
enterprise 'feeds' the big saucer-creature.  You have this beautiful
effect marred by this ridiculous video effect of the beam.  This
also will make it difficult to show episodes at conventions and
such.

A further problem are the obvious set-ups that will ensue from each
of the characters.  I predict, probably within the first season:


Worf the Klingon will get wrongly blamed when a diplomat or
something is murdered on the enterprise.

Levar Burton's character will lose his ray-bans and will be forced
to rely on his own wits to survive.

The saucer and attack sections of the ship will become lost from one
another.

On the other hand, for good or ill, it 'feels' like Star Trek.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 18:48:38 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Q is a Bully For Picking on Enterprise

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>Q stops the Enterprise with his reconditioned Tholian Web and tells
>the bridge crew that he doesn't want them to proceed any farther
>because they will spread their nastiness to virgin territory.
>Now, the Enterprise hasn't reached Farpoint yet, right?  When they
>finally arrive, we see the Hood already in orbit and a starbase
>packed with Federation people, like Ryker and Crusher.  Why didn't
>Q beat up on the Hood?

I don't know. Could it be because the Hood patrols the UFP's borders
while the new Enterprise will be going beyond those borders to look
for new worlds to colonize and also looking for new civilizations? I
always assumed that to be the case. After all, it would be rather
foolish to order the captain of the Hood to not go around spreading
Federation "nastiness" in Federation territory.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,ut-ngp}!gitpyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 15:09:56 edt
From: gf08+@andrew.cmu.edu (George Harold Feil)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns

One of the most valuble features of the old ST series was the
friendly rivalry between Spock and McCoy, especially when Kirk would
throw his own $0.02 in.  But on the new series, there is almost no
humor from the crew at all--only from that obnoxious "Q".  [And
indeed, he's quite menacing; he makes Trelane look like a spoiled
brat.]

I agree with scorpion about the children: what are they doing here?
If anyone read J. Kirk's preface in the book ST:TMP, he remarked
that the Enterprise (Constitution class, that is) was the only ship
of its class to make it successfully through its five-year mission
and return intact.  The new Enterprise's mission ought to be as
dangerous (if not more so) as the original mission.  What decent
parents would risk their children's lives on a mission like this?
(Oh, I forgot, whenever they get into trouble, it's off with the
Enterprise's saucer.  Yeah.)  Bauxie and Moffet were two of the
spoilers of Battlestar Galactica, T.V.'s last serious effort at sf.
Kids are likely to turn ST:TNG into another "Buck Rogers in the
25'th (oops, 24th) Century" if the writers are not too careful.  Of
course, it sure beats celebacy.  Think of all the women Kirk left
behind on faraway planets...

Enough flaming for now.  The one matter that really threw me in for
a loop was the allegations made by Q against the human race.  Last
night, I saw "A Private Little War" (I think that was the title),
when Kirk and the Klingons are about to start intergalactic war
before the Organians stopped both sides.  Now there was real human
savagery in this episode.  The human race must have gone a long way
in those 200 years since.

The new captain is real cool.  Much cooler than Kirk.

I think I could enjoy this series...

gf08+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 20:41:39 GMT
From: RLWALD@pucc.princeton.edu (Robert Wald)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

leonard@qiclab.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee) writes:
>>I guess I don't understand the basic premise of carrying families
>>on board.  Is the Enterprise no longer a front-line battleship?
>>How could it possibly be one with this baggage?  And why carry
>>them along?  Are they going to be away from civilization?
>
>The Enterprise has _never_ been a front-line warship! It is an
>exploration vessel. And they are hauling along the families because
>they plan on being out there for 10 years. And the policy is a new
>one.

  The design of the Enterprise at the time was the most advanced
design extant. It was fully capable of functioning as a front-line
warship, except that the federation wasn't at war, and didn't want
to be. They were more interested in keeping the peace and exploring.
Had the klingon war occurred, the Enterprise would have been part of
the front-line fleet.

  It is unclear whether the Galaxy-class ships are in the same
situation.  THat is, whether they are intended to function as battle
cruisers.  Probably not. Actually, the premiss of taking your family
along into potentially dangerous situations doesn't sit well,
considering the speed that they could get back home. ALso the
different way people act if their loved ones are threatened. If they
actually were going into deep space for a long time, then it is more
justified, but I doubt that they will wind up straying too far.
Also, with a known hostile (the Ferengi) out there they are bound to
encounter trouble.

Rob Wald
Bitnet: RLWALD@PUCC.BITNET
Uucp: {ihnp4|allegra}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!RLWALD
Arpa: RLWALD@PUCC.Princeton.Edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 18:17:12 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Bryce/Wesley

I thought Wes Crusher in "The Naked Now" was more than a little like
Bryce from M-M-M-Max--anybody else?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 19-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #451
Date: 19 Oct 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #451
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Oct 87 0934-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #451
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 451

Today's Topics:

           Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 17:24:46 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Re: Q is a Bully For Picking on Enterprise

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>Q stops the Enterprise with his reconditioned Tholian Web and tells
>the bridge crew that he doesn't want them to proceed any farther
>because they will spread their nastiness to virgin territory.
>Now, the Enterprise hasn't reached Farpoint yet, right?  When they
>finally arrive, we see the Hood already in orbit and a starbase
>packed with Federation people, like Ryker and Crusher.  Why didn't
>Q beat up on the Hood?

Because it WAS the Enterprise and this is Star Trek?  Besides, it
seemed more of a game with Q than a real threat. Or perhaps a
deliberate manipulation of Picard to prevent him from screwing up on
Farpoint planet (being barbaric/savage) when the friendly humanoid
inhabitants are suddenly attacked by an alien ship.

Royal White Jr.
(uucp:  uunet!netxcom!rwhite)
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 01:11:56 edt
From: jarrell@vtopus.cs.vt.edu (Ronald A. Jarrell)
Subject: st: tng second episode

Well, not as bad as I thought it would be.  At least they
acknowledged they took the plot from the previous episode..

Be interesting to see more of Tasha's past.  She survived escaping
from the Rape gangs from 5 to 15?  Pleasant planet she grew up on.
I wonder if something will happen between her and data?  Most people
never last long once they've said "It never happened"...

Wes is certainly an inventive youngster..  He improved on the
federation tractor beam using his Mr. Wizard home science kit..

Interesting article on TNG in Starlog..  They interviewed various
cast members during what was to them the 4th weeks shooting.  During
the previous weeks episode Majel Barrett came back as some
characters mother.  ALso, William Shatner and Mark Lenard have/had
been seen around the set.

Apparently Worf was found as a child in a crashed Klingon cruiser.
He was raised as a human, but thinks and acts like a Klingon...
They're thinking of letting his character be attracted to someone.
It would have to be someone strong though, cause he thinks most of
his shipmates are weak and emotional.. (emotional with the wrong
emotions.. He doesn't begrudge them HAVING them...)

Oh - neat point about the research vessel.. On the bulkheads the
ships name was written in Cyrillic, not Standard...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 18:43:38 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Roddenberry/Fontana

I think I agree in large part with the general opinion of
Roddenberry's writing, but I seem to recall D.C. writing some of the
better episodes in ST Classic. By _NO_ means should they be kicked
off the show, as sl131089@something-or-other suggested--they were
both at the helm during the most successful part of the original
series!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 20:51:54 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG

The people who are complaining about the repeat of "Great joy and
gratitude" are not looking at the scene as a whole. Sure, it was
corny even the first time.  However, when the composer wrote the
music for it, he wrote it so that after she said it once, the music
demanded a repetition of the words, after which it led up to the
climax at "from both of them", after which it resolved into the
coda.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 23:57 EDT
From: "George Barbanis, Heldenprogrammer" <BARBANIS@cs.umass.EDU>
Subject: "The Naked Again"

   Why should Data be programmed with all three F's? (Feed, Flee,
Reproduce)?  I should think the first two would be sufficient for an
android.  Now, having the *capability* for the third is undoubtedly
handy, but having the *drive* is hardly necessary.

   Why was Data also affected by the infection?  Last time I poured
a can of beer on my Sun it didn't run out and party.

   I'm glad they have restrained the Betamax.  Also, the Grecian
hairstyle she was sporting lately is very unbecoming of her.  Maybe
that's why Yar liked it.

   The good captain might be OK in his role, but he was a let down
when he was intoxicated.

I have a question: Picard has four buttons on his collar, which
makes him a captain.  Now Ryker has three, which makes him a
Commander or something close.  Data has three also, but he has to
say "Sir" to Ryker, who, we are given to understand, can treat him
as a bucket of bolts if he feels so inclined.  Same goes for the
engineer McWhatsHerName, who, if I'm not mistaken, also has three
collar buttons.  Ditto for the good doctor.

George Barbanis
UMass -- Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 87 20:11:04 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Is Q Really Trelane

A lot of people are saying, "Q is really Trelane grown up!"  Come
on, guys, Federation space is full of aliens of insubstantial form
and godlike powers with a tendency to preach.  To me it's obvious
that Q is the Rock Being from the OK Corral episode.  Or he might be
that Hellenic character who made Kirk fight the Lizard Captain.  Or
maybe he's one of the disembodied brains that loves games ....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 09:38 PDT
From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: STTNG:The Naked Now

Is it a sequel or a remake?  Well, to my mind, you may borrow a plot
device for a sequel, but when you borrow the whole plot . . .
Almost the same crisis, which the ship can't escape but a crazy
crewmember, claiming to be Captain and demanding extra desserts, has
locked the sane crew out of the engine room.  What originality!

Still it has its moments:

Data -- definitely my idea of a personal computer!

Funny that he knows all about sex, but nothing about "snoop" or
"snootfull" (Maybe someone ripped out the "sno" pages of his
dictionary) He says he's been through Starfleet Academy.  Is it
really realistic that he could have spent more than a few days there
without learning all the synonyms for "drunk"?

Chief Engineer -- I've been pretty annoyed by the female roles of
TNG.  I really thought either the Captain or First Officer should
have been female.  But, what do we get?  A lady doctor.  Well, back
in the 60s when the first ST was made, that might have been a
shocker, but in the 80s, it's cliche.  I mean, the caring, nurturing
female doctor bit.  And a "Councilor?" who's an empath.  A female
security chief had its possibilities, but I'm not please with Yar as
that character.  She looks like Pricilla Presely in butch -- ie, a
butchy wimp.  Add her emotionalism on top and she doesn't impress me
as a strong female character.

So, I was DELIGHTED to see a female Chief Engineer, complete with a
Scottish name (McDougal, wasn't it?)  Too bad she doesn't seem very
competant.

I mean, it would take her HOURS to put the computer chips back in,
but it only takes Data 12 minutes?  And Data only seems to be moving
slightly faster than a normal human.  I wouldn't say this is
unbelievable, but you know that Scotty would have had the placement
of those chips learned so well that he could have put them in in his
sleep!  Same goes for the reconfiguration of the tractors, which
would take days for our Chief Engineer but our Boy Genius manages it
(while stoned) in a few minutes with a few button pushes.

I wish she had a Scottish accent, too.  I love accents and the bits
of Scottish, Russian, and Kyle's British, added to the original ST.
What do we have now?  A Frenchman with an unexplained British accent
and an alien with an unexplained German accent.

Ryker: I'm really not surprised that the disease didn't have any
noticable effect on him.  He seems to really be nothing but a pretty
face: no character for the disease to show off.

Speaking of the disease, I kind of like the idea that there was
something in the gravity changes in the planet and star breakup that
created the disease, instead of the same disease some one being
spread.  But then, how do you explain it being "mutated"?  Oh, well.

Lisa Wahl

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 13:08:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG "THE NAKED NOW"

The first thing I noticed was that the same writer of "The Naked
Time" was one of the writers for this episode, "The Naked Now".  I
enjoyed this episode more than "Encounter at FarPoint".  I was glad
that they did remember the occurrence of what happened in "The Naked
Time" and used the knowledge from the data banks to help them solve
the mystery this time, though it was slightly different.  I thought
it was strange that #1 did not seem to be affected by it.  I also
thought that it was strange that Data was affected by the disease.
That is one way in which we see that Data is more android than
robot.  We are learning more about the characters and I have high
hopes that there will be some really top notch episodes down the
line.
   Since it is in syndication, the shows do not have to get that big
an audience to do better than most of those channels did with
whatever programming they used to have (unless it is a network
affiliate that has taken the show).  Thus there should be less of a
franticness for high ratings.  As mentioned earlier, they already
have filmed a good number of episodes. (Hmmm, I wonder if Max
Headroom will have new episodes in syndication after ABC cancels it.
With the ratings it is getting on Friday night, the ABC executives
have some plans for it.)

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@UMCINCOM
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 17:59:57 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (M S Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Bryce/Wesley

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I thought Wes Crusher in "The Naked Now" was more than a little
>like Bryce from M-M-M-Max--anybody else?

Well, really they're both incarnations of the "boy genius" who has
been part of movies, television, and other media since he started
putting crystal sets together in the twenties.  It's been a while
since I read Tom Swift, but I seem to remember the same sort of
character.  In general his job is to come up with things that either
backfire or work too well, so that he or someone else can save the
day at the end.  Actually, I think Bryce is a bit more competent
than Wesley, and a bit less inclined to do stupid things without a
plan B.  (This may be because he's seen friends' brains fried by
black ice, but this is only speculation.)

M S Schiffer

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 13:46:39 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM
To: Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM

>female security chief had its possibilities, but I'm not please
>with Yar as that character.  She looks like Pricilla Presely in
>butch -- ie, a butchy wimp.  Add her emotionalism on top and she
>doesn't impress me as a strong female character.

   I agree.  But since she is going to stick around for a while, a
few more out-of-uniform scenes would not go amiss :-)

>I mean, it would take her HOURS to put the computer chips back in,
>but it only takes Data 12 minutes?  And Data only seems to be
>moving slightly faster than a normal human.  I wouldn't say this is
>unbelievable, but you know that Scotty would have had the placement
>of those chips learned so well that he could have put them in in is
>sleep!

   The whole idea that the engineering section is controlled by a
few hundred plastic chips (that look like they would spill out onto
the floor the first time the Enterprise is hit by something) leaves
something to be desired.  But if we take it as given that such is
the case, the main reason that Data was faster at replacing the
chips is that he was able to identify the correct slot for each one
(not a simple task, since they all looked VERY similar to me) and
not that he was faster at putting them into the slots (although that
helped too).  I agree that Scotty would have done it faster than
Data (filled to the gills and asleep to boot).

>Same goes for the reconfiguration of the tractors, which would take
>days for our Chief Engineer but our Boy Genius manages it (while
>stoned) in a few minutes with a few button pushes.

   There does seem to be something lacking in the chief engineer
(maybe it's her first ship after graduating from the academy :-)).
The kid is REALLY starting to get on my nerves.  Maybe, if we can
scrape together enough cash, we can hire someone to knock him off
(target: Wil Wheaton.  Obviously, his parents wanted him to be
tortured at school :-)).

>Ryker: I'm really not surprised that the disease didn't have any
>noticable effect on him.  He seems to really be nothing but a
>pretty face: no character for the disease to show off.

   What a coincidence.  That is verbatim what I told my wife as we
were watching the show.

   I also wonder how "fully functional" Data really is.  Could we
soon see little Datas running around the ship with the other kids
and the chief security officer taking maternity leave :-).

    All things considered, I'm starting to think that things are
looking up from the fiasco of the pilot and that we may really have
a good show on our hands.  What I would like to see go (apart from
Wes, Yar and the Betazoid) is the relying on old plots and ideas.
Lets see something really original.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 22:39:15 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: RE: STTNG

Folks,

Let's wait a while before giving up!  In the first story, many
things were done to establish characters and technology plain and
simple.  Think how you would feel if in some future episode, they
seperated the ship without it having been seen before.  It would
look like a plot deus ex machina of the first order ("They never
said it could do that!").  Also, I would expect that we won't always
have to be told everything about each character again after a short
ramp up period.

Admittedly, I doubt I'll ever like having the doctor's son on board
and in plot, but..

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

BTW: I did always think starbases were space structures. No?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 19:52:41 PDT
From: raoul@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject: Star Wreck : The Last Generation

I had misgivings about this series before it first aired here (Los
Angeles on Sept 30) from the information received on this bboard.
Sadly, they were confirmed by the pilot movie and the second
episode.  Nobody has mentioned this part yet so I'll put down my
first impressions...

This reject from the local SCA festival pops on board and decides to
fry the captain and staff for past discrepancies of their race.
Never mind the poor motivation of this "advanced" being.  We'll
leave that alone.  The captain decides to run away and discovers the
SCA reject can catch him.  He then decides to do the
detach-flying-saucer bit to save the families and turns around to
face the enemy in battle configuration.  Maybe he can detain this
SCA reject long enough so that the families can escape.

This is a noble cause.  What does he do now?  He SURRENDERS!
Unconditionally at that!  Without taking a hit.

Would Kirk do such a thing!?

Would any real starship captain do that?  Instead of pulling McCoy
out of a hat, I think it would have been just (if not more)
effective if the captain did a "corbomite bluff" (a la original
series ) with appropriate references to Kirk and the game of poker.
This time however the SCA reject should call his bluff.

This happens all within the first 10 minutes of a 2 hour movie!  It
seemed the commercials took up as much time as the movie.

The material gets worse after that.

The second episode was a carbon copy of an episode in the original
series.  Sigh.

Al

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 19-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #452
Date: 19 Oct 87 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #452
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Oct 87 1016-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #452
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 452

Today's Topics:

         Books - Aldiss & Blish & Card & Farmer (2 msgs) &
                 Ford (6 msgs) & Gerrold & Lem & Niven & 
                 Rocklyne & Turtledove & Wolfe (2 msgs) &
                 Yarbro

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 00:45:32 GMT
From: ADBARR@pucc.princeton.edu (Adam Barr)
Subject: What's Aldiss About?

Are the Helliconia books by Brian Aldiss any good? They certainly
rank right up their in terms of the lavishness of the cover quotes,
but then so did Sword of Shannara (which, I guess, wasn't too bad
once it started moving). Please E-Mail if you have an opinion, also
it would be helpful if you could indicate what other books you
thought were good/bad so I can determine how much to believe you.

Adam Barr
6080626@PUCC

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 02:04:30 GMT
From: lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: A Case of Conscience: the remix?

Dan Parmenter's suspicions are correct.  The Arbor House Treasury
reprints only the first book of "A Case of Conscience".  The
separate novel publication is about twice as long.  The first book
ends with the gift of an egg.  The second book ends with the
explosion of the planet.  The short version was published in "IF" in
1953; the longer form five years later.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 09:01:59 GMT
From: rsk@s.cc.purdue.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Subject: Mini-review of "Speaker for the Dead" (minor spoilers)

One-line review: Ender the Xenocide repents and turns into Leo
Buscaglia.

Well, perhaps not.  But in the sequel to "Ender's Game", we find
Ender's military precociousness exceeded by his grasp of human (and
alien) behavior.  Most of it's quite believable, although there are
times when Ender's insights are about as mystical as those of Paul
Muaddib.  ("Well...your left nasal hairs twitched and *therefore* I
know you're concealing a plot to hide the other plot about the
conspiracy that...")  However, this tendency doesn't really intrude
too much into the story, and didn't overstrain my credulity.

Most of the plot takes places on Lusitania, a planet with an
experimental colony whose sole purpose is to study the "piggies", a
race of intelligent but technologically primitive aliens vaugely
resembling, uh, porkers.  The colony represents a balance between
religious, intellectual, and political forces, each of which has a
stake in the outcome of the study.  Ender, as "Speaker for the
Dead", is summoned to the planet to Speak and is soon embroiled in
xenobiology, family disputes, religio-philosophical tensions, and
the struggle for the survival of the colony.  (Note: a Speaker for
the Dead is one who explains the life of someone who has died; such
an explanation is given *very* truthfully and without
embellishment.)

Ender's sister Valentine reappears in this book; in her interactions
with Ender and in Ender's interactions with "Jane", we find depth in
his persona that was only hinted at in "Ender's Game".  Card
succeeds quite well in turning the wunderkind of the earlier book
into a mature individual who must cope with the consequences of his
own (ancient) actions.

The xenobiological premises around which the story is wound are
unique; they constitute a story-within-a-story that helps maintain
the reader's interest.  "Jane" and her origins form another such
mini-plot, although I didn't find the science there quite as
plausible.

This book takes the story of Ender in a new direction in a
thought-provoking and sensitive manner; it's not simply just a
sequel.

Rich Kulawiec
rsk@s.cc.purdue.edu
s.cc.purdue.edu!rsk

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 20:02:30 GMT
From: sputnik!kmr@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Philip Jose Farmer

hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu writes:
>Join the club. I used to be a big Farmer fan, but have not been
>keeping up with him. The only Farmer series I've read past the
>first two books is the World of Tiers series, and that was getting
>pretty tiring near the end. However, I really enjoyed his early,
>more concise books, like the Lovers, Strange Relations etc.

Give "The unreasoning mask" a try; I think it's his best book since
the first "Riverworld".

Karl MacRae
UUCP: kmr!sun
ARPA: kmr@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 18:20:56 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!lewando@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Lewandoski)
Subject: Re: Philip Jose Farmer

     One of the most memorable stories I've read was by Farmer-- I
think it was called "Sketches among the ruins of my mind." It's
about a alien satelite that appears in orbit around the earth and,
every 24 hours, removes a year of memory from everyone on earth.
Great idea! Read well.  Sort of had a cheap ending, though...

     I agree with everyone who're saying how the Riverworld series
went from wonderful to awful.  Too bad.

Mark Lewandoski

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 21:27 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: How Much for Just the Planet

  I second what Dani said: Read the book. Anyone who steals from
Shakespeare (comedies), Feydeau (bedroom farces) and W.S. Gilbert
(or was it Sullivan? My copy's on loan, so I can't check) (comic
operettas), and does it well, deserves to make big bucks from sales.
I went nuts trying to find someone home last Saturday afternoon so I
could burble about this book. *No-one* I called was home, damnitall!

  But, Dani, Pamela and David WHO? I know that Diane & Peter are Ms.
Duane and Mr. Morwood (true to character!), but don't know the
others, including the Neil who just wanted a walkon.

Marina Fournier
Arpa: <Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 87 09:33:05 EDT
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cca.bbn.com>
Subject: Janet+Rick(+Pamela+David+Diane+Peter+Ted+Alice+...)
To: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

Well, Pamela+David and Janet+Rick are obvious, but who are Diane and
Peter?  We may or may not agree that Pamela and David are Dean and
Dyer-Bennet.  Janet and Rick are Kagans.  Janet wrote one Star Trek
novel, "Uhura's Song", and she was the person who insisted that I
buy and read Ford's first Trek novel (the name of which I've
forgotten) "even if you don't read Trek novels."  Janet and Ricky
are long-time SF fans who live in New Jersey.

Now.  Who are Diane and Peter?

Morris

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 19:37:07 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Janet+Rick(+Pamela+David+Diane+Peter+Ted+Alice+...)

>We may or may not agree that Pamela and David are Dean and
>Dyer-Bennet.

You might as well agree. It's true...

>Now.  Who are Diane and Peter?

Would this be Mr. and Mrs. Diane Duane?

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 00:30:07 GMT
From: leonard@qiclab.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Who are Rick and Janet?

haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) writes:
>The dedications in "How Much for Just the Planet?" name Pamela &
>David, Diane & Peter, Janet & Rick.  The first four are easy, but
>who are the last two?

They are (probably) the two main characters in "The Rocky Horror
Picture Show".  Everybody should see it at least once (so they'll
understand references). But be sure to wear old clothes!!!!(you'll
find out!)

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!qiclab!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 17:44:30 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: How Much for Just the Planet

From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
>I second what Dani said: Read the book. Anyone who steals from
>Shakespeare (comedies), Feydeau (bedroom farces) and W.S. Gilbert
>(or was it Sullivan? My copy's on loan, so I can't check) (comic
>operettas),

You forgot the Marx Brothers, Laurel and Hardy, W.C. Fields, The
Wizard of Oz, Blazing Saddles, Hitchcock, a number of old Bogie
movies and many other references that I'm sure went by without my
notice.

This is a book that folks who love Star Trek will love. It is also a
book that those who HATE Star Trek will also love. It is
unbelievably insane. I was laughing so hard at some points my sides
ached.

I am going to give this book the highest possible recommendation --
not only does it seem that the author had to be on drugs to write
something that funny (a better word is loony) but I want to know
what drugs they were, because I want some.

You have GOT to read this book.

>But, Dani, Pamela and David WHO?

Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennett and David Dyer-Bennett (but I think I said
that once before). She's an author and he's a spouse of an author
and "well known Minneapolis fan" according to SFChron. He also runs
Terraboard, a SF bbs in Minneapolis.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 17:19:40 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: How Much for Just the Planet

Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM writes:
>       I second what Dani said: Read the book. Anyone who steals
>from Shakespeare (comedies), Feydeau (bedroom farces) and W.S.
>Gilbert (or was it Sullivan? My copy's on loan, so I can't check)
>(comic operettas),

I question that. Most of the stuff, particularly the songs, I find
more reminiscent of Noel Coward. (And I am not even a Coward fan),
or Flanders & Swann.

Will Linden
{sun,philabs,cmcl2}!phri!dasys1!wlinden
{portal,well,ihnp4,amdahl}!hoptoad!dasys1!wlinden
{cucard,bc-cis}!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 17:58:38 GMT
From: ccplumb@watmath.waterloo.edu (Colin Plumb)
Subject: Re: Chtorr (David Gerrold's Books)

The titles of the bookd Gerrold has written are
"A Matter for Men", and
"A Day for Damnation".

I enjoyed them (he's building up a considerable arsenal of facts
about these alien invaders, which suggests good continuity in the
future), but reports I heard say more in the series won't be
forthcoming soon.  To wit:

Gerrold got into a fight with his publisher.  A new publisher picked
up the series, but wants to publish the *whole* series.
Unfortunately, the old publisher holds the copyrights to the books.
The new publisher wants Gerrold to rewrite the books before doing
any new ones.  Gerrold isn't too eager to do this, and is
procrastinating.

This is only what I've heard, second hand, about 9 months ago.
Still, I have observed a lack of new books in the series, and this
does explain it.

Colin Plumb
watmath!ccplumb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 87 22:53 EDT
From: DFISCHER@hamp
Subject: Intelligent Suns

Somewhat along the same lines: In _Solaris_ by Stanislaw Lem, the
planet on which the story takes place is covered by an ocean which
turns out to be sentient (and interested in cognitive science!).

Dave Fischer
Hampshire College
BITNET:   fischer@umass
CSNET:    fischer%hamp@umass-cs
INTERNET: fischer%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
UUCP:     ...seismo!UMASS.BITNET!fischer

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 15:05:17 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

Hold on here.
The reason, as I see it that the State used humans for Rammers was
that only a human would have the necessary skills, don't ask me
which, to arrive at certain conclusions.  The computer might not
have been able to repair systems on the ships, or other reasons.
And I don't think that the State experimented with human
personalities on computers whatsoever.  As I recall, in a last ditch
effort they broadcasted Pierce's character at the ship's computer,
and just saturated the memory with Pierce.  I think Pierce says this
in the book....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 22:13:54 EDT
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: Ross Rocklyne

Ross Rocklyne (Sp?) was active at least until the early 70's or late
60's.  One of his stories is in one of Ellison's DV collections.  He
also wrote one of my oldtime favorites (hokey as all get out but..)
"Time Wants a Skeleton".

Ted Nolan
Ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 04:37:28 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!jimb@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Brunet)
Subject: Re: Harry Turtledove (was Re:  Life in Space, continued . .
Subject: .)

PUDAITE@UIUCVMD.BITNET writes:
> [deleted material discussing story]
>I think the story is more recent than anything in _Analog_ by Simak
>(although it's certainly possible that Simak did something along
>these lines too).  It sounds like a story by Eric G. Iversion /
>Harry Turtledove (are they both pseudonyms?) which appeared in the
>last four years (that's how long I've subscribed to _Analog_).  I
>don't have my library handy, but if anyone's really interested, I
>can look it up.  By the way I don't like the

Harry's real name is Harry Turtledove.  "Eric G. Iverson" will be
the answer to a future triva contest.  It was Harry's pseudonym
imposed by a publisher on a couple or three fantasy novels that came
out in the early 70's.

He used this name until he began to be pretty well established
writing for ANALOG et al.

He writes in a sort of Poul Anderson vein, encompassing both fantasy
and science fiction.

Jim Brunet

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 02:16:39 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60RC)
Subject: _Soldier of the Mist_ (SPOILER)

I've just read _Soldier of the Mist_ by Gene Wolfe and have some
questions about it that I can't resolve.

The book takes place in 479 B.C. just after the defeat of the
Persian army at Plataea and the protagonist is a member of the
Persian army.  However, from various clues given, the protagonist is
also a Roman legionaire.

As far as I know there were no Roman legions in existence at the
time, or at least none that would hire out as mercenaries to a
distant land like Persia.  At this time Rome dominated just the
Latin peoples in central Italy (and perhaps not all of them).  It
certainly maintained no standing army at this time.  So where (when)
did Latro and his fellow legionaires come from?  And how did they
get into the Persian army?  I realize that only the author knows,
but that never stopped readers from speculating before.

One theory is that the gods or goddesses have time travelling
abilities and that they came from a time several hundred years in
the future.  I don't like this idea because the Greek gods never
evinced time travel abilities in the traditional myths.  However, I
am at a loss to come up with a better explanation.  Any ideas?

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 14:06:28 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: _Soldier of the Mist_ (SPOILER)

dant@tekla (Dan Tilque):
>However, from various clues given, the protagonist is also a Roman
>legionaire.
>
>As far as I know there were no Roman legions in existence at the
>time, or at least none that would hire out as mercenaries to a
>distant land like Persia.  At this time Rome dominated just the
>Latin peoples in central Italy (and perhaps not all of them).  It
>certainly maintained no standing army at this time.  So where
>(when) did Latro and his fellow legionaires come from?  And how did
>they get into the Persian army?

You made an unjustified leap from "Roman" to "legion".  The
protagonist is a Roman mercenary.  Period.

Dani Zweig
haste2@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 87 18:28 EDT
From: Guy Caruthers <guyc@pegasus.scrc.symbolics.com>

Does anyone know the name of the latest ( I think ) Yarbro book
about vampires.  I believe it has the character in Nazi Germany.
The name of the publisher would also help me find the book.

Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 19-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #453
Date: 19 Oct 87 1035-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #453
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Oct 87 1035-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #453
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 453

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (4 msgs) & Feist (5 msgs) &
                    Herbert (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 01:01:56 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Re: Anthony & Chalker

leech@unc.UUCP (Jonathan Leech) writes:
>    Anthony & Chalker have written only one book each (it might
>even be the same book in both cases). Change names, locations, and
>find a different way of labeling "magic" as "science" (in Chalker's
>case) and you have a new book. Timothy Zahn shows signs of falling
>prey to this with his "Triplet" - hopefully it won't turn into a
>series.

   Uhh, how much Anthony have you read?  I would say that there are
definite differences between Xanth-et-al and Omnivore-Orn-OX and
Tarot and Incarnations...
   Inside a particular series you might be able to make this claim (
I don't think so, even with the nearly identical Xanth books) but
looking at the rest of his work invalidates it.  It *is* all
noticably Anthony, but then there are writers I like just for thier
style, Anthony's isn't theirs, and thank goodness for that.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 20:17:54 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>I read the 1st Xanth book, 3 Split Infinities, 3 Tarots, & 2
>Carnations of Immortality.
>
>>Good grief, the man writes about all sorts of different themes!
>
>You are mistaking plot for theme.  Plot is what happens.  Theme is
>why it happens.  The theme is always GOOD (that's Christian Good)
>versus EVIL (Christian Evil).  GOOD always wins.

Actually, this theme is not universal in Anthony's works.  It does
seem to be universal in all but his earliest works.  Chthon and
Phthor are distinctly different.  The Battle Circle books (Sos the
Rope, etc.) don't really fit the mold, either; nor does the
Orn/Ox/Omnivore trilogy (I don't really remember what order these go
in).

I wish Anthony were still writing like that.  I would still be
reading him.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 20:38:28 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Vale of the Vole (by Piers Anthony) Review

VALE OF THE VOLE
Piers Anthony
Avon Books
October 1987
ISBN 0-380-75287-5
324 pages, Paperback
(****)

Your eye is caught first by a very good wrap-around cover painting
by Darrell Sweet, whose style is starting to become recognizable and
desirable in itself.

The publisher blunders badly by stating on the back cover "The start
of a thrilling new Xanth trilogy", when, as all loyal fans know,
this is merely volume 10 in the _only_ Xanth trilogy, the volume
Anthony promised he wouldn't write until he fleshed out his anemic
Apprentice Adept trilogy with a least a fourth volume.  He's done
that, so the nearly unbearable wait since GOLEM IN THE GEARS is
finally over.

The puns are redolent as ever, like Limburger cheese an acquired
taste.  In fact, a couple of these top all but a couple of Spider
Robinson's Callahan's Saloon stinkers.  Apply clothspin to nose,
dive in!

The story is typical of the series: Baddies are causing mischief in
some part of Xanth, a new set of hero(ine)s is introduced and old
characters assist in setting things to rights.  This story has the
most animal like character yet, Varley Vole.

There are broad hints of sexual activity, fortunately all offstage
(I haven't yet forgiven Anthony his Cluster series), although some
of the preliminary groping is explicit.  Visits to the land of
dreams via the hypnogourds, treks down magic paths, exploration of
strange realms, and all the other stock (and beloved) parts of a
Xanth novel are right in place.

If you've developed the habit, or want to know what all the
discussion is about, this is a good place to start.  Recommended.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 01:45:45 GMT
From: c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu (Jon Yamato)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

   I read Feist's _Magician: Apprentice_ and the first half of
_Magician: Master_ before losing my copy and failing to replace it.
I won't pretend to be an authority based on one and a half books.
   For what it's worth, though--I was very put off by his failure to
describe what the reader was seeing.  He tended to name things,
assuming that a reader with a good background in fantasy would know
what an Elf, Dwarf, wraith, dragon, etc. would look like.  While I
certainly have pictures of these things, I would like to hear what
Feist thinks they look like, rather than being expected to fill them
in myself.
   In a more abstract fashion, I thought he made the same mistake
with the characters--presenting an outline and expecting the reader
to fill it in with his/her own ideas about wizards, elven queens,
dukes's daughters, etc.  I think that readers who like Feist are
those more willing to make pretty pictures out of the outlines he
gives, and those who hate him expect filled- in images from the
author.
   If you don't see what I mean, look at the scene in _Apprentice_
where the characters meet a wraith in the dwarf mines.  They say "Oh
no!  A wraith!"  or words to that effect.  "It will drain our life
force!"  But the reader never <sees> anything but a shadowy form (if
that).
   Our discussion is foundering, as C. S. Lewis pointed out in a
very similar situation, on the fact that we really aren't talking
about the same book.  I'm just looking at what Feist wrote.  You may
have woven a tremendous story around those bare bones.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 23:35:37 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Raymond E. Feist

c60b-ej@buddy.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Jon Yamato) writes:
>     For what it's worth, though--I was very put off by his failure
>to describe what the reader was seeing.  He tended to name things,
>assuming that a reader with a good background in fantasy would know
>what an Elf, Dwarf, wraith, dragon, etc. would look like.  While I
>certainly have pictures of these things, I would like to hear what
>Feist thinks they look like, rather than being expected to fill
>them in myself.
>     In a more abstract fashion, I thought he made the same mistake
>with the characters--presenting an outline and expecting the reader
>to fill it in with his/her own ideas about wizards, elven queens,
>dukes's daughters, etc.  I think that readers who like Feist are
>those more willing to make pretty pictures out of the outlines he
>gives, and those who hate him expect filled- in images from the
>author.

The classic example of the type of fantasy writing I don't like is a
novel I once read (name is blessedly gone from memory) that built up
to a confrontation between to mages, one very powerful and good, the
other equally powerful, but evil.  Finally, the last chapter, a
large vaulted room....From one end enters the evil wizard, from the
other, the good wizard...They see each other, snarl....

AND DRAW THEIR SWORDS AND ATTACK EACH OTHER!

Gurf, fluge and pfui!

I'm not much on hack and slash...I enjoy MAGIC, it uses and
misuses.  Most of the fantasy authors of the last 20 years or so
seem to have a manic fear of doing more with magic than TELING you
how powerful a mage is...Enus Yorl, Gandal AAhz, etc., etc., etc.
The type of fantasy, light, dark, classic - doesn't matter.  We are
told of the great powers, but it is never used.

Feist writes about wizards that use magic.  Alot.  Powerfully.  But
not to the detriment of the book.  Saberhagen did the same in his
Swords books.  This I like.  It takes a bit of effort, I guess.
Most seem not willing to bother.

As for filling in the pictures, I prefer to do that myself.  I have
yet to meet a dwarf in Fantasy that looks the way I envision them.

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 17:51:36 GMT
From: harvard!yale!martin@RUTGERS.EDU (Charles Martin)
Subject: Feist

I had the odd feeling while reading _Magician_ that Feist must have
been familiar with M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (role-playing
games and two books: _The Man of Gold_ and _Flamesong_).  The
"insectoid" creatures look oddly like Pe Choi, and the general
milieu of Kelewan (?) seems to bear an odd similarity to Tekumel.
(There are, of course, common cultural antecedents in India,
etc---just as there are between Feist and Tolkein in the common body
of Graeco-Roman and Western European history and myth.)

Anybody else get this feeling?  Tolkien's well-known, but I would've
liked to have seen a credit to Barker if he was a source of
inspiration.

For the record, I liked _Magician_ and would recommend it to other
fantasy enthusiasts.

Charles Martin
ARPA: martin@cs.yale.edu
UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4!hsi}!yale!martin

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 06:41:55 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker & Feist

>I expect people, not character types.  This is why I like, say,
>Blaylock, but dislike, say, Feist.
>
>To forestall possible misunderstanding: by people I also include
>elves, amberites, and so on.  But they must be real.

Well, of the two, I do prefer Blaylock, but I think Feist does a
good job in his books as well.  At least with some of his
characters.  For a first work, I was very impressed.  His latest
work ??Daughter of the Empire??  with Janny Wurtz was especially
good.  I look forward to good things from REF.

Jonathan Bing
...ihnp4!hoptoad!dasys1!cheeser

------------------------------

Date: 10 Oct 87 02:34:05 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Feist

>I had the odd feeling while reading _Magician_ that Feist must have
>been familiar with M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (role-playing
>games and two books: _The Man of Gold_ and _Flamesong_).

It's very likely. At the time Magician was written, Feist was
working full time with a company that wrote and published an RPG.
Since he's an avid (and professional) gamer, he'd be aware of his
competition.

Magician is actually set on the world of the RPG that they were
using for that game (and I wish I could remember the name, but it's
been a few years since I heard him talking about this...)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 87 16:10:49 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Starbuck)
Subject: Re: Feist

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Magician is actually set on the world of the RPG that they were
>using for that game (and I wish I could remember the name, but it's
>been a few years since I heard him talking about this...)

Does the name MIDKEMIA, (as in MIDKEMIA PRESS) ring any bells??

Stephen Pearl
VOICE:  (201)932-3465
UUCP:  rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!pearl
ARPA:  pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu
US MAIL:  LPO 12749 CN 5064, New Brunswick, NJ 08903

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 17:31:58 GMT
From: agranok@udenva.cair.du.edu (Alexander Granok)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

mbrown@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Brown) writes:
>Only in the movie.  My impression from the book was that the Guild
>ships somehow travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably FTL)
>and the Guild navigators were prescient and used this ability to
>choose their course

I always got the idea that the navigators somehow used an extreme
use of psi powers to actually "think" the ship to where it was
supposed to go.  Sort of like teleportation.  The spice gives you
the "ability" to travel to places that are far away in time and
space, so this idea kind of makes sense.

Alexander B. Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 87 11:07:05 GMT
From: vogl@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Wynecosha Stevens)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
>mbrown@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Brown) writes:
>>Only in the movie.  My impression from the book was that the Guild
>>ships somehow travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably
>>FTL) and the Guild navigators were prescient and used this ability
>>to choose their course
>
>I always got the idea that the navigators somehow used an extreme
>use of psi powers to actually "think" the ship to where it was
>supposed to go.  Sort of like teleportation.  The spice gives you
>the "ability" to travel to places that are far away in time and
>space, so this idea kind of makes sense.

I reread the books recently, having a spare afternoon.  Here is how
it works.

There is an FTL drive.  If you plot a course directly where you want
to go, you will never be seen again.  You must be prescient enough,
with the aid of the spice, lots of the spice, to look among all the
possible courses for the one which will get you there.  Where you go
if you mess up is not known, or even speculated, but if your pilot,
who is usually unbalanced anyway from massive spice dosage, messes
up in some tiny way, bye.  It happens reasonably often, maybe one
every hundred trips.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 00:30:15 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
>mbrown@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Brown) writes:
>>Only in the movie.  My impression from the book was that the Guild
>>ships somehow travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably
>>FTL) and the Guild navigators were prescient and used this ability
>>to choose their course
>
>I always got the idea that the navigators somehow used an extreme
>use of psi powers to actually "think" the ship to where it was
>supposed to go.  Sort of like teleportation.  The spice gives you
>the "ability" to travel to places that are far away in time and
>space, so this idea kind of makes sense.

The movie did portray it like that, but the books did not.  In the
book, interstellar travel without a spiced-up navigator was
possible, but extremely dangerous.  Remember, someone had to go to
Dune to get the spice in the first place!

Also note that the important guild members always mentioned are
"steersmen" and "navigators".  The melange spice allows the
navigator a little prescience so that he can choose a safe path to
his destination.

Darren Leigh
dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu
mit-amt!dlleigh

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 22:13:33 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

agranok@udenva.cair.du.edu (Alexander Granok) writes:
>mbrown@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Brown) writes:
>>Only in the movie.  My impression from the book was that the Guild
>>ships somehow travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably
>>FTL) and the Guild navigators were prescient and used this ability
>>to choose their course
>
> I always got the idea that the navigators somehow used an extreme
> use of psi powers to actually "think" the ship to where it was
> supposed to go.  Sort of like teleportation.  The spice gives you
> the "ability" to travel to places that are far away in time and
> space, so this idea kind of makes sense.

One of the interesting characteristics of Melange (spice) in Dune
was that, in addition to aiding life-span extension, it enhanced
prescience.

Since computers (inorganic, at least, were replaced by mentats) were
proscribed, being able to sniff out safe routes would be handy for
the Guild.  And they were pretty adamant about maintaining their
monopoly on interstellar travel.

It appears that they engaged in bioengineering, at least in the case
of navigators; whatever they were originally, they certainly didn't
appear to be human by the time they were fully functional *as*
navigators.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 19-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #454
Date: 19 Oct 87 1130-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #454
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 19 Oct 87 1130-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #454
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 19 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 454

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tepper & Thomas &
                             Story Requests/Answers (4 msgs) &
                             Heroes in Hell (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Sep 87 02:08:35 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper's latest

Putting all arguments about whether it is SF or Fantasy aside, I
must agree.  I liked these books. But, then again, Tepper always
seems to draw me in.

lance@LOGICON.ARPA:
>       This is a rash inspired message (since I just finished the
> book less than a minute ago).  It is to say Sheri Tepper is a must
> author to check out.  Her new Duology (really one big book split
> in two), Northshore and Southshore were great.  With a cast of
> many - ready to confuse the reader if read over a long time. If
> read somewhat quickly (less than a week for me), then it should be
> OK and the mystery of "what the heck am I reading?" is rewarded.

Maybe I'm strange, but I'm not easily confused by large casts of
characters.  Even mammoths like Footfall and Battlefield Earth
rarely faze me. The Awakeners (collective name for the two books,
given by SFBC) was no different in this respect; I only had to refer
to the index of characters once for the blurb on a minor Treeci
character.

>       The books are set on a world with a land mass at both the
> north and south of the world, with islands in between.  The planet
> is populated by humans, who practice a bizarre religion to appease
> the Thraise, a race of birds who must eat from a limited food
> selection (mainly only dead humans).  The religion was set up to
> allow the birds and humans (who are not native to the planet) to
> co-exist.  A simplified overall plot statement is to say that an
> upcoming confrontation between the Thraise and humans is
> approaching.  Each group of people/individuals have thier own way
> of planning for this event, while others are planning how to
> advance within the current system.  (Just as things would happen.)

Sheri laid the plots thick in this one. Virtually *EVERYONE* in the
Chancery -- the ostensible governing institution of man -- is
involved in some plot or the other (except for Lees Obol, the turnip
:-).

The main Thraish character has his own number of plots, too, most of
them having to do with ways to safely rid the planet of humans for
good.

>       The first book ends, but the story plots as if the two
> books were one.  Reading the first book only would be
> unsatisfactory, and with the many characters one might not get
> around to starting the next.  Don't let this happen to YOU.
> (shades of recruitment creeping in - read both books).

Just so. I rather wonder if Tor pulled the same trick with Tepper
that Bantaam did with Feist's Magician. The first book ends very
abruptly.

>       I will tone down the degree of all this hype by saying
> that the story, at times, is more difficult to read than some
> books (I like Doris Piserchia books also).  But stick with it
> (you'll only get lost further ;-) (it's so much fun sticking those
> silly things in).  One could also bring up questions as to how
> such a religion could get started, and have the people really
> believe it.  (but then look at what people believe here on earth -
> no pointing to anyone in particularly - just a statement:-)
> Actually the books cover this.

[And now, a metacomment about spoilers.]

[Maybe it's just me, but personally I find that spoilers enhance my
enjoyment of books I have not yet read. Hearing disconnected pieces
of information about what is in the book make me say to myself,
"what ARE these people talking about?" Then I rush out and buy the
book so I can find out.]

[We now return you to your regularly scheduled article, already in
progress.]

***Spoilers ahead***

I got the distinct idea that the people did not really, in the
depths of their mind, believe in the religion. My own speculation is
that maybe they did not WANT to believe that such a horrible
religion could, indeed, exist, so they took refuge in the "religion"
to avoid those feelings. After all, the religion obviously did
exist..

Of course, the highest authorities of the religion were well aware
that the whole thing was a fraud. Perhaps despite their best efforts
to keep that fact concealed, their body language or such subtly
conveyed that fact to the subconscious minds of their subordinates,
and thus to the people.

***End spoilers***

>       One of the reasons I liked the book is that, I could
> really picture people doing what they did in the story, and at
> times, it made them appear so foolish.  People on earth do it all
> the time (those involved with similar situations - eg. fighting
> aliens).  More to the point, it was a good read, and as a bonus to
> some (including me), its not typical of the bulk of fantasy
> published now.

People on earth have fought aliens? When?! I seem to have missed
something big.. :-)

Tepper's books -- at least, those I have read -- ARE atypical of
today's mass-market fantasy. Of course, some people still won't like
her stuff -- after all, it IS fantasy, isn't it? Maybe it is because
she exhibits more new concepts and ideas (that old SF mainstay) than
the likes of Terry Brooks.

>Enough silly words.  Tepper is good.  Read her stuff.

First time I've included an entire quoted article for some time. In
fact, this is THE longest article I've posted for months. Maybe it's
because I've finally started reading SF again..

Bill Wisner
..ihnp4!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 00:13:19 GMT
From: vax1!ag4@RUTGERS.EDU (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: _Reindeer Moon_ by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas

                          _Reindeer_Moon_
                    by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas
                   available as a SFBC selection
                (paperback edition ??? I don't know)

_Reindeer_Moon_ is the story of Yanan who lives in pre-historic
Siberia with her family.  Her family hunts and gathers but does not
know how to dry meats and does not try to save grains or vegetables
through the winter.  In the first chapter the thirteen year old
Yanan discovers that she is already married.  Marriages are
carefully arranged among family members and involve elaborate gift
giving all around.  Her husband is a member of the family that
shares their lodge and he is patiently waiting for her to mature.
Learning that she is married is a turning point for Yanan; from this
point on she has to start thinking of herself as on the way to
adulthood.

_Reindeer_Moon_ alternates between the last 2 years of Yanan's life
and the first year or so of her life as a spirit.  Yanan's clan
leaves for their winter hunting grounds and eventually splits up.
Yanan travels with her parents, her younger sister Meri, her
father's second wife and two cousins.  When her parents die, Yanan
and Meri are soon abondoned with winter fast approaching.  Somehow
they make it through and even manage to find the rest of their group
in the spring.

As a spirit Yanan has been captured by the shaman of the clan and is
required to work for their good.  She is able to take the shape of
any animal she desires.  As a wolf she runs far and wide, ostensibly
to chase game towards the waiting and starving hunters.  But with a
wolf's brain she can't always remember that that is her task.  As a
raven she flies with the group on their travels and as a mamomoth
she investigates the other mammouth herds.

Thomas skillfully ties the two stories together, alternating chapter
by chapter.  Winter is hard, starvation and hungry animals are a
constant threat.  Summer is easier, but very short.  With luck the
group manages to kill one mammouth my creating a rock avalanche that
throws it down a cliff.  Of course much of the meat spoils before
they can finish it, but there is plenty of food for a while.  Most
of the waking hours are spent chasing food or preparing clothing or
tools.

The short biography of Elizabeth Marshall Thomas says that she has
spent time studying hunting and gathering cultures around the world.
I felt that her details of the life and work were reasonably
accurrate (however I am not the sort of person to pull apart a work
for technical details).  Yanan's clan has developed a fairly
sophisticated culture, maybe more sophisticated than their lack of
tools would indicate.  The politics seem more appropriate here at
work than in ancient Siberia.  However this makes the story more
interesting and enjoyable since the characters are people you can
identify with.

I read _Reindeer_Moon_ because a good friend with good taste handed
me her copy and said "Here, it's what _Clan_of_the_Cave_Bear_ was
supposed to be."  She was quite right.  _Clan_
of_the_Cave_Bear/Valley_of_the_Horses are ok books; _VotH_ overdoes
the 'hey, sex is a neat thing' message, but that's neither here nor
there.  The point is, Wendy was right!  _Reindeer_Moon_ is
everything that CotCB/VotH tries to be (except very long) but
_Reindeer_Moon_ is far superior!  I couldn't put it down.  It's fast
moving. The scenes when Yanan is a spirit taking the body of an
animal are marvelous!  I highly recommend the book.

Anne Louise Gockel

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 06:33:04 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Name this novel

O.K. I read a novel about four years ago.

We're talking W W III

The U.S. and the USSr were on the same side.

A mainstay of our airforce was dirigible aircraft carriers,
containing hangers, etc on top.

A memorable scene wherein a patriot downs an enemy plane in his
restored P-51 (I think).

Part of the USSR - chinese battle fought with robot-saucers.

U.S. hit in the south east with amthrax-derivative plague.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 01:21:07 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Name this novel

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) writes:
>O.K. I read a novel about four years ago.
>We're talking W W III
>The U.S. and the USSr were on the same side.
>A mainstay of our airforce was dirigible aircraft carriers,
>containing hangers, etc on top.  A memorable scene wherein a
>patriot downs an enemy plane in his restored P-51 (I think).  Part
>of the USSR - chinese battle fought with robot-saucers.  U.S. hit
>in the south east with amthrax-derivative plague.

Systemic Shock, by Dean Ing.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 06:03:49 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Story Request!

Hello:

   I hope someone can help me out on this one.  The story involves
aliens.  These aliens seemed to be able to create new organs which
they can immediately use.  I remember one alien which "invented" an
eye, and all the other aliens flocked to this alien to say, "can I
have one, can I have one?!"  The details may be different but the
part about "inventing" and eye is right.  What is this story?

AG Hirai
Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:  {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
CSnet: hirai%swatsun.swarthmore.edu@relay.cs.net
ARPA:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 87 19:27:05 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!sundc!potomac!jtn@RUTGERS.EDU (John T. Nelson)
Subject: Re: Story Request!

hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>       I hope someone can help me out on this one.  The story
> involves aliens.  These aliens seemed to be able to create new
> organs which they can immediately use.  I remember one alien which
> "invented" an eye, and all the other aliens flocked to this alien
> to say, "can I have one, can I have one?!"  The details may be
> different but the part about "inventing" and eye is right.  What
> is this story?

This sounds a bit like "Flight of the DragonFly" by Charles
Sheffield where one ofthe aliens (they are called Flouwen) creates
an eye out of his own protoplasm.  I don't think the other aliens
flocked to him and said "can I have one" though.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 06:33:31 GMT
From: pgs@csvx001 (Peter Sarrett)
Subject: Re: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

The correct order for reading the _?_in_Hell_ series is 0.  Don't
bother with them at all.  I was bored to tears by the first novel
and didn't pick up the next.  Dry and dull.  The Wild Cards novels
are much more engrossing and interesting examples of how a shared
universe SHOULD be donw.

Peter Sarrett

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 19:22:47 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

>       Serious question: Are these any good?

>>Anthologies:
>>      Heroes in Hell (includes Hugo winning "Gilgamesh
>>              in the Outback" by Silverberg.

This has two good stories: the Silverberg and "There are no fighter
pilots in hell" by Martin Caidin. The rest is average to poor.

>>      Rebels in Hell

This has one good story by Greg Benford about Hemmingway in hell.
It probably helps to have read some Hemmingway, but whattheheck.
Otherwise, its average to poor.

>>      Crusaders in Hell

I haven't gotten to this yet.

>>Novels:
>>      Gates of Hell (Cherryh & Morris)
>>      Kings in Hell (Morris)

both were unreadable. I don't like Morris, though.

>>      Legions of Hell (Cherryh)

I'm not holding my breath.

The HiH series gets a marginal, at best, recommendation. The
anthologies have a single good story by a top line author (for which
they buy second rights and have the story sold to some place like
IASFM) and fill it out with their stable of typewriter jockeys. The
novels have Janet Morris. Need I say more?

If you like Shared World anthologies, I recommend you instead
towards the "Borderland/Bordertown" series by Windling, the "Liavek"
series by Shetterly&Bull (probably my favorite) and "Wild Cards" by
Martin (the second book is not as good as the first one). There is
also the original: Thieves' World by Asprin et al, which some folks
like and some don't (I like the early and later books, but not the
middle...)

If you like the concept of HiH, track down Phil Farmer's riverworld
series ("To Your Scattered Bodies Go" is a good start) which is the
origin (more or less) of the concept that HiH is playing with. And
much better written, at least the early books.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 02:17:51 GMT
From: anich@puff.wisc.edu (Steven Anich)
Subject: Re: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

>>Anthologies:
>>      Heroes in Hell (includes Hugo winning "Gilgamesh
>>              in the Outback" by Silverberg.
>>      Rebels in Hell
>>      Crusaders in Hell
>>Novels:
>>      Gates of Hell (Cherryh & Morris)
>>      Kings in Hell (Morris)
>>      Legions of Hell (Cherryh)
>
>       Serious question: Are these any good?

I've only read _Heros in Hell_.  It was so-so to bad.

I had no desire to read the others.

steve anich
anich@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 20:56:20 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Morris/Cherryh "Foobar in Hell" series

pgs@csvx001.UUCP writes:
>The correct order for reading the _?_in_Hell_ series is 0.  Don't
>bother with them at all.  I was bored to tears by the first novel
>and didn't pick up the next.  Dry and dull.

Second the motion.  C. J. Cherryh was my favorite living SF author
until she let herself get associated with this pile of "paper better
off as trees".  I hope she returns to stuff of the quality of the
Chanur series, the Faded Sun Trilogy, Downbelow Station,
Merchanter's Luck, and so on.  I sure was a lot happier when
everything with her name on it was a promise of a superior read.

Kent

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #455
Date: 20 Oct 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #455
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 87 0820-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #455
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 455

Today's Topics:

       Television - Star Trek: The Next Generation (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87  19:35 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: ST:TNG  *spoilers*

In "The Naked Now", who infected Captain Picard with
whatever-it-was?

Note: there was never any little "whoosh" sound indicating infection
for him; assuming he was infected when he spoke to Doctor Crusher in
the briefing room, who did it?  the doctor DID NOT TOUCH HIM.  we
watched TNN twice in a row and could not figure it out....

susan de guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 18:25:42 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Spock and Pwyll

cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu  writes:
>MFL1@LEHIGH.BITNET writes:
>>     Now, for some good points.  Dr. McCoy...  "Do you know how
>>old I am???"  I liked that.  Hope it doesn't become a permanent
>>thing though.
>
>Amen to that.  If Bones is 137, Spock will be a middle-aged Vulcan.
>Unless, of course he dies (again).

Hey, does this mean Spock has been born twice? Maybe we'll see him
transferring the Enterprise into Fionavar next time someone tries to
blow them up!!  8~)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 00:09:05 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Q is a Bully For Picking on Enterprise

m1b@rayssd.RAY.COM (M. Joseph Barone) writes:
>Q stops the Enterprise with his reconditioned Tholian Web and tells
>the bridge crew that he doesn't want them to proceed any farther
>because they will spread their nastiness to virgin territory.
>Now, the Enterprise hasn't reached Farpoint yet, right?  When they
>finally arrive, we see the Hood already in orbit and a starbase
>packed with Federation people, like Ryker and Crusher.  Why didn't
>Q beat up on the Hood?

Because the show is about the adventures of the Starship Enterprise.
If Q stopped the Hood, the producers would have to fill up 2 hours
of dead air.:-):-):-)

I agree with some of the other posters on the net that Q is really
Trelane.  He has that same fascination with death and human
savagery.  Someone recently posted something about why Q didn't take
Worf as an example of Klingon savagery.  I think that this is a key
point because Trelane would have something of a grudge against
Terran humanity, because of the way Kirk beat him.  Trelane was
quite a monomaniac in _Squire_.  He may have just gotten off being
grounded for treating his toys badly from the previous encounter.
Like any child that has been punished, he is a little more cagey
about what he can and cannot get away with.

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 23:18:34 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: "The Naked Again"

From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS@cs.umass.EDU>
>Why should Data be programmed with all three F's? (Feed, Flee,
>Reproduce)?  I should think the first two would be sufficient for
>an android.  Now, having the *capability* for the third is
>undoubtedly handy, but having the *drive* is hardly necessary.

If you are going to build an artificial human, then it only makes
sense (to me anyway) to make it as human as possible.  Ergo...

>Why was Data also affected by the infection?  Last time I poured a
>can of beer on my Sun it didn't run out and party.

See above.  And, as a matter of fact, he mentioned his similarities
to humans in the show at one point.

>I have a question: Picard has four buttons on his collar, which
>makes him a captain.  Now Ryker has three, which makes him a
>Commander or something close.  Data has three also, but he has to
>say "Sir" to Ryker, who, we are given to understand, can treat him
>as a bucket of bolts if he feels so inclined.  Same goes for the
>engineer McWhatsHerName, who, if I'm not mistaken, also has three
>collar buttons.  Ditto for the good doctor.  George Barbanis

   Ryker, as a superior in the Chain-of-Command, should be addressed
as "Sir" by officers of equal rank under him in the chain of
command.  Other cases where officers of equal rank would be
addressed as "Sir" is where one officer achieved the rank earlier
than the other. (Military info courtesy of my commissioned
girlfriend :-)

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 03:46:07 GMT
From: chapman@eris.berkeley.edu (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: "The Naked Again"

BARBANIS@cs.umass.edu writes:
>I have a question: Picard has four buttons on his collar, which
>makes him a captain.  Now Ryker has three, which makes him a
>Commander or something close.  Data has three also, but he has to
>say "Sir" to Ryker, who, we are given to understand, can treat him
>as a bucket of bolts if he feels so inclined.  Same goes for the
>engineer McWhatsHerName, who, if I'm not mistaken, also has three
>collar buttons.  Ditto for the good doctor.

Ryker is the ship's Executive Officer, which makes him #2 on board,
regardless of grade (technically, "captain", "commander", etc. are
called "grades", and "rank" is the length of time one has been a
given "grade").

Besides that, Dr. Crusher is not a line officer (she's not in the
chain of command).  MacDugal (wonderful, another Scottish
engineer...) may or may not be a line officer, but I'd be inclined
to say not.  Data probably is.

What I'm curious about is having a lowly lieutenant (grade O-3,
assuming the StarFleet grade structure is the same as the American
one) as head of security for a ship as large and prestigious as the
Enterprise.  And a one that seems to believe in "act first, think
later", at that; people like that tend not to get very far in
security or intelligence.

Brent Chapman
chapman@mica.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!mica!chapman

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 03:31:07 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!ers!nmm@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil McCulloch)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM writes:
> I wish she had a Scottish accent, too.  I love accents and the
> bits of Scottish, Russian, and Kyle's British, added to the
> original ST.  What do we have now?  A Frenchman with an
> unexplainted British accent and an alien with an unexplained
> German accent.

Scotty's accent was certainly not Scottish. It might pass as a
parody of one, a poor parody.

Picard may lack a definitive Cousteau like accent, but he speaks
English beautifully, with more effect than the entire cast put
together. It is a shame that Ryker will be the main protagonist.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 16:59:38 GMT
From: raoul@vlsi.jpl.nasa.gov
Subject: Star Wreck : The Last Generation

I had misgivings about this series before it first aired here (Los
Angeles on Sept 30) from the information received on this bboard.
Sadly, they were confirmed by the pilot movie and the second
episode.  Nobody has mentioned this part yet so I'll put down my
first impressions...

This reject from the local SCA festival pops on board and decides to
fry the captain and staff for past discrepancies of their race.
Never mind the poor motivation of this "advanced" being.  We'll
leave that alone.  The captain decides to run away and discovers the
SCA reject can catch him.  He then decides to do the
detach-flying-saucer bit to save the families and turns around to
face the enemy in battle configuration.  Maybe he can detain this
SCA reject long enough so that the families can escape.

This is a noble cause.  What does he do now?  He SURRENDERS!
Unconditionally at that!  Without taking a hit.

Would Kirk do such a thing!?

Would any real starship captain do that?  Instead of pulling McCoy
out of a hat, I think it would have been just (if not more)
effective if the captain did a "corbomite bluff" (a la original
series ) with appropriate references to Kirk and the game of poker.
This time however the SCA reject should call his bluff.

This happens all within the first 10 minutes of a 2 hour movie!  It
seemed the commercials took up as much time as the movie.

The material gets worse after that.

The second episode was a carbon copy of an episode in the original
series.  Sigh.

Al

------------------------------

Date: 11 Oct 87 00:09:46 GMT
From: elg@usl (Eric Lee Green)
Subject: STNG is SAD.

Regarding "Star Trek: The Next Generation":

I saw the pilot last week. Disappointing. Entirely. Captain Kirk
would have never said "I surrender" to ANY alien critter. Captain
Kirk would have never clenched his fists and bellowed "GUILTY!",
would have said whatever in that cool, controlled, oh-so-effective
tone of voice that Captain Kirk always used whenever he was pi$$ed
but not letting it get to him.

And then there's the critter himself. Pops up out of the middle of
nowhere (gee, since he knows oh so much about the human race, why is
he waiting only until NOW?), puts the crew through all sorts of
meaningless torment that was undoubtedly as "cruel" as anything he
accused humans of doing, then when the humans solve some trivial
little puzzle, that doesn't have even a LITTLE application to what
they were supposed to be doing (i.e. proving they were "civilized"),
he disappears without even a puff of smoke... I mean, "Deus Ex
Machina" to the max, just some device to keep what poor excuse of a
"plot" existed, moving right along.

My conclusion: Poor acting, poor plotting, lousy script, let's hope
this turkey either dies soon or gets a brain transplant from
somewhere.

This is a typical example of the kind of show that gives science
fiction a bad name amongst network types.

Eric Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{ihnp4,cbosgd}!killer!elg
{ut-sally,killer}!usl!elg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 87 12:01 EDT
From: "I.B.M. SUCKS SILICON"
From: <ACM_NET%nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: ST:TNG (Give it a rest"

In answer to all of those (Tim) who criticize moralizing et al.

FLAME ON:
   I think the show is OK.  We could all use a little moralizing as
a race.  And by the way isn't it nice to see people of different
races and backgrounds get along.  The only reason you can't believe
it is because you are too closed minded and stuck in this century.
Humans are notorious for these traits.
   The show needs to develop and if it wants to establish itself by
linking itself to it's own past then that is OK by me.
   So basically if you don't like it so much use the power you have,
namely to change the channel.

ACM_NET@northeastern.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 19:24:00 GMT
From: pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Starbuck)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG  *spoilers*

DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET writes:
>In "The Naked Now", who infected Captain Picard with
>whatever-it-was?
>
>Note: there was never any little "whoosh" sound indicating
>infection for him; assuming he was infected when he spoke to Doctor
>Crusher in the briefing room, who did it?  The doctor DID NOT TOUCH
>HIM.  we watched TNN twice in a row and could not figure it out....

A group of friends and I also noticed this.  We argued about it for
a while and came up with the following explanation:

The so called infection is mutated water.  It is therefore
transferred by touch.  (Perspiration).  The breath of humans
contains much moisture (try breathing on a cold day).  It is
therefore reasonable to assume that Picard was " infected" due to
his close proximity to Crusher during the office scene.

Stephen Pearl
(201)932-3465
UUCP:  rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!pearl
ARPA:  pearl@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 20:00:42 GMT
From: slb@drutx.att.com (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: "The Naked Again"--the future of this series

I've been following some of the discussion of this show.  (Let me be
honest and say I missed the premire--but caught the second show.
Got the first one on tape, though, so I'll get to it.)

Has anyone thought of the possibility that they are NOT planning to
take this seriously.  I mean, it's almost a spoof now.  All they'd
have to do is camp it up just a bit (and some of them are already
trying, or they are worse actors than I thought) and it could be a
fun show.

I think we can all agree that they haven't gotten into their roles
yet.  Maybe when they do, this will turn out to be another _Quark_.
I could go for that.  If it continues this way, or goes completely
serious without great improvement in script writing, you can count
me out.

The tip-off for me was the limerick.

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 16:12:30 GMT
From: sdl!bub@RUTGERS.EDU (Ardis Claire McLeod)
Subject: Star Trek: TNG - uniforms

Does anyone else think the uniforms look like they were done by
Betsey Johnson?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 17:43:53 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: "The Naked Again"

>Why was Data also affected by the infection?  Last time I poured a
>can of beer on my Sun it didn't run out and party.

You're obviously unfamiliar with the conventions of Movie/TV
computing.  When something drastic happens to a cybernetic entity
(the glass of spilled champagne in Electric Dreams, the bolt of
lightening in Short Circuit) it immediately gets terribly whimsical
and yuppieish and starts looking around for a Meaningful
Relationship.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 15:59:26 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

>Actually, the premise of taking your family along into potentially
>dangerous situations doesn't sit well, considering the speed that
>they could get back home. Also the different way people act if
>their loved ones are threatened.

The idea of leaving your family behind is a modern concept of the
20th Century. Previously, it was common to bring families along
during a campaign. Everyone from privates to generals did it so the
idea of families aboard the Enterprise is not that strange
especially considering that it's job is long range exploration, not
war.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
..!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 20:31:39 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Is Q Really Trelane

In a private message Badri writes (sorry Badri, but this stuff belong
in public):
>you write:
>>form and godlike powers with a tendency to preach.  To me it's
>>obvious that Q is the Rock Being from the OK Corral episode.  Or
>>he might
>Umm. It was the Abraham Lincoln episode and not the OK Corral ..

No, that was a *lava* being.  Or was it the other way around?
*Anyway*, they were both geological aliens.  And they were both
meddlesome, had superhuman powers, and tendency to preach and
moralize.  Probably Trelane's Mom and Dad.

Isaac Rabinovitch
isaac.rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
sun!portal!cup.portal.com!isaac.rabinovitch

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #456
Date: 20 Oct 87 0834-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #456
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 87 0834-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #456
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 456

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Zelazny (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10-OCT-1987 15:22 EST
From: Bill Millios <WLMILLIOS%GALLUA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Amber books...

People have been mentioning getting Roger Zelazny's eighth book of
Amber.  I only have up to six.  Could someone please write out a
list of all the books (with publication date, please)?

Personally, I love the series.  I first read the books at the
impression- able age of 13, and years later, although I forgot the
title of the books, as well as the author, I could still see my
conceptualizations of the hellrides, the Pattern, Amber, etc.

Speaking of the Pattern; has Zelazny ever printed a layout of the
thing?  One thing I did not really understand was that if the
Pattern was so difficult, why did it have to be so big?  Seems like
the "corridors" must have been very wide in order to take up that
much room...

Second, why didn't the beast that was guarding the Primal Pattern
attack Corwin, if it had been set there, and instructed, by Oberon?

Bill Millios
Gallaudet University
Washington, D.C.
wlmillios@gallua.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 18:15:40 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Amber question, comments from Sign of Chaos, spoiler

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>"Who wants Merle protected and has sent the ty'iga demon to protect
>him?"
>
>d) Mondon.  The big problem with this is Mondon acts surprise when
>first dealing with the demon.

This is my own candidate.  So Mondon is good actor.  He has a lot of
other skills, too.

This leaves open the question of why the demon refuses to let Merlin
know who sent it.  It explains why Mondon goes along with its
wishes; they are, after all, his; but we still don't know why he
would sic a guard on Merlin and think it important that it be kept
secret.

>e) Mask?  Now I'm really streching.  "Keep him alive, until I want
>to kill him" This is hard to figure, partly since it's not clear
>who Mask is, an Amberite, or from the Court, a new power, or maybe
>a pawn from a shadow world who has become a queen on his own.

I suggest you reread the ending of Sign of Chaos carefully.

This is a very strong possibility.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 87 18:52:25 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Amber

Do any of the authors out there have plans for an "Amber
Encyclopedia," like the one that showed up for Dune a while back?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 04:42:18 GMT
From: rjg@ruby.tek.com (Rich Greco)
Subject: Re: Amber, "Sign of Chaos", spoilers, more questions

> I think that his loyalty to his father and his worry that he might
> muck up whatever is going on if he goes searching keeps him from
> going after Corwin. Corwin will show up when he is good and ready,
> and is quite good at hiding otherwise. Searching for him

I agree that Corwin is alive, but finding Corwin was one of the
tasks that Merlin set for Ghostwheel.

I do believe that we have not seen the real plot yet.
Random/Corwin/et al.  are up to something which we have not seen
yet.  It may involve what Dalt and Luke are really up to.

Does anyone else think that Dalt and Luke have Coral?

How about the ghost of Oberon.  Does anyone else think that this is
Corwin?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 19:12:06 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #439

[Quotes from hin9@sphinx.uchicago.edu, claiming that Amber is a
ripoff of Corum]
>   Consider the evidence.  The Hero is named - Corwin, which is
> suspiciously close to Corum.

You have a suspicious mind, but I concede your point.

> He is in love with his sister.

I wouldn't call it a major plot element: it took me a while to
remember this, and I've read the books several times.  Corwin's
relationships with Moire and Dara -- and even with the thing that
called itself Lady -- are more important to the plot and to Corwin's
character.  Elric and his sister, on the other talon, are a
significant plot element for a part of the Elric books.

> His Arch-Enemy is his brother Eric, as in Elric.

For 40% of the series, anyways.  Besides, Eric is really Corwin's
brother, not whatever kind of magical clone Corum's archenemy
`brother' was; and when Corum and Elric met, they were on friendly
terms. Corwin's transcending this and other hatreds (admittedly,
mostly from the easy side) is one of the important themes of Amber;
I can recall nothing analagous in the Eternal Champion books I have
read.

> He is a member of a non-human but very human-like species.

So are a lot of other people.  I admit some similarities between
Corum's powers and those of the Amberites -- they can both move
between dimensions.  It's pretty loose, though.  Corum was
restricted to five or six dimensions, and as I recall essentially
lost that ability in the first book.  Shadow-walkers are restricted
mainly by their own creativity.  Also, they both live a long time.
All of Zelazny's heroes live a long time. (OK, so there are
exceptions.)

Amberites are exceptionally tough, and I recall that Corum's folks
were frail.  Corum didn't regenerate his missing eye, for example.

> He is royalty.

Again, so are lots of other people.  Corum, although a titular
prince, never had any hope of particular political power from his
royal blood -- I seem to recall that there were a couple of decrepit
servants in his home castle, but his nearest potential subjects were
his relatives a very long way away.  Corwin certainly has potential
political power; Amber books 1-3 or 1-4 are his attempts to make
that potential real.

> He has a nifty sword, Yggthrmithrandircheeseslicer (or something
> like that).

The name `Greyswandir' is a quotation from other fantasy, but not
from Moorcock.  Fafhrd (of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser) always names
his sword `Greywand', for reasons that I forget.  Zelazny uses
similar tricks elsewhere in Amber. Greyswandir and the Black Sword
don't seem to have all that much in common, in effect or
personality.

> He fights against the forces of the Courts of Chaos.

The earliest Law vs. Chaos story I can remember (using those names)
was by Poul Anderson, and predates both Moorcock and Zelazny.  A
variety of mythic cycles (Norse and Hindu for two) have some
approximation of Law vs. Chaos in them.  (If you believe
Levi-Strauss, all myth cycles have this as a fundamental theme.)

Oddly enough, the Courts of Chaos behave much like Moorcock's forces
of Law -- they are described as stagnant and unchanging.  Amber is
the [socially] wild chaotic place, with revolutions and vanishing
kings and disorder.  (This view may change as we see more of the
Courts of Chaos.)

In particular, Zelazny's Chaos amounts to another place kind of like
Amber; Moorcock's Chaos amounts to the forces of Hell.

> He nearly destroys the universe, saves it, etc., etc.

So does everybody else 8-)

>    In the Amber books, the fact that Corwin loves Deirdre is
> mentioned in passing about twice.  If you blinked, you'd miss it.
> "If only Dad had permitted marrying inside the family..."-vague
> paraphrase.
> ...
>    What really clinched the Corwin-Eternal Champion bit for me were
> the names and the Corwin-Eric-Deidre triange.  The rest of it is
> just window dressing.  On the other hand, it's probably a sad
> commentary on how inbred modern fantasy has become; that similar
> settings and plot devices seem worlds apart.

I don't remember a Corwin-Eric-Deirdre triangle.  I did blink a few
times when I read _Amber_, but I can't recall Deirdre having
anything in particular to do with Eric, or vice versa.

I don't consider something that you can blink and miss a
particularly major plot element.  A similarity between a major theme
in one series and something "mentioned in passing about twice" in
another doesn't seem to be major inbreeding.

So yes, there are similarities of incidentals between the Eternal
Champion and Amber.  In my arrogant opinion, the dominant themes,
styles, personalities, and plots are quite different, and I doubt
that either was derived in any great part from the other.

Bard Bloom

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 05:20:51 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Amber question, comments from Sign of Chaos, *spoiler*

Spoilers in questions...

And who could be behind the shadow-storm tornado?  It was shown that
someone keeps it stabilized...  Who?

And how could Julia have grown SO powerfull and so well informed
that she could take over the Keep of Four Worlds in such a short
period of time?

I think I may just have to re-read the whole 8 books again to see if
I can make any sense of it.

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{...!psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 14:31:10 PDT (Thursday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Chaos, ty'iga, Time Travel, spoilers
To: rjg@ruby.tek.com

From: rjg@ruby.tek.com
>One of the questions that puzzles me (and could shed some light on
>who) is can a ty'iga travel through time?  The ty'iga seems to be
>following Merle's time track and not jumping around but I have no
>proof of this.

     Does anyone remember if the ty'iga demons were mentioned in the
first five books?  Are any characteristics discussed?
     It seems to me that there was some reference, just once, in an
early Amber book about shadows which went backwards in time.  I
cannot remember which book.  Seems like Corwin was thinking about
various shadows he had come acrross.
     I didn't like this reference, it opens up too many problems.
And I really distrust my memory on this because Zelazny hasn't
written a lot about it.  If time travel is possible in the Amber
universe, I'm sure Zelazny would have written more about it.  And if
time travel were possible, more Amberites would have used it.

     Along the idea of shadows with different time rates, in "Sign
of Chaos', p 98 Martin gets back from a Shadow a high-tech urban
world where he has been for a year, and then on p 120 we learn it
has been about a week on Amber, so we have a time differential of 50
to 1.
     I'm surprised the Amberites don't spend more time in fast
moving shadow worlds, where there is a greater chance for growth and
development.  (But of course most of the Amberites haven't been into
productive things, they have been more into indulging in pleasures,
fighting for power, and taking revenge.)
     Seems like one thing which would be useful would be to find a
world going really fast (maybe a 1000 to 1?) and marry a hundred
women, and try to raise a brood of kids.  Teach them to work
together and to help each other.  It might be a bit tricky getting
them to the pattern, but a number of other people have made it
without the whole world knowing.  Maybe only take those children
which are "good kids", who get along, study hard, help each other
and so on.

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 11:17:48 PDT (Friday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Amber, "Sign of Chaos", spoilers, Juila
To: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com

     The following has spoilers for those who haven't read "Sign of
Chaos".

rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch) writes
>Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>> Now a question pops up of how did Julia become Mask?  Did someone
>> help, or did Julia already have powers which Merle wasn't first
>> aware of?  And why does Julia now want to kill Merle?
>
>You know, perhaps Julia is being forced against her will?  The dead
>Julia that Merle found in her apartment must've been a close
>replica from some shadow world which fooled Merle.

     The thought had occured to me, and I agree, the body Merle
found must have been from a different shadow world, meant to fool
Merle.
     I hadn't considered that Julia might be under High Compellings.
It would make sense, even though she may be mad at Merle, I don't
think she would try to kill him.  The question here becomes who put
her under High Compellings?  The person would have to be fairly
powerful.
     One reason Julia might want to kill Merle is if she finds out
she is she is Brand's daughter.  She is clearly somebody special.
The most natural would be an Amberite.  And if she were Brand's
daughter, then she can recently find out, go through the "I want
revenge phase", and end up marrying Merle.  Jasra could have figured
out the relationship, told Julia when Luke was trying to be friends
with Merle, and then Julia could turn on Jasra.  Is there anything
obvious I'm overlooking?

Henry III

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 17:32:49 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Two points.

I should know better than to make a joke. Please God, free the net
from my sense of humor.....

>Chuq von Rospach makes reference to the "five books of the Amber
>trilogies [sic]".  Unfortunately, they're no such thing.  "Trilogy"
>means "set of three", so having five books make a trilogy is
>clearly impossible.

Okay, since this is the third or fourth message I've seen on this
comment, let me explain....

Back in the ancient days of publishing, Roger Zelazny decided to
write a Trilogy around a world called Amber. The series grew and
grew, and by the time he was done, he'd written five books. Thus was
born the first Trilogy of Amber, and why it contains five books.

And lo, Zelazny realized that there was money in Amber, and that he
had a new storyline, and he decided to write another Trilogy, which
was called the Second Trilogy of Amber. And when he had written the
second of three books, he realized he hadn't even come close to
finishing it, and so he expanded the second trilogy to five as well,
which is how we can stick five books into the second trilogy.

So, yes, I know that a trilogy has three books. And yes, I know that
the Amber series has five books in each cycle. So my comment was
based on what they started out as, not what they ended as -- a
little cuteness on my part.  I never guessed folks would take the
side comment so literally.

I just happen to find a five book trilogy to be an amusing comment,
which is why I call the Amber cycles trilogies. They started that
way, after all.  Oh, well....

>I'm not sure if an equivalent term for a five book set exists; the
>only thing that springs to mind is "quintology", from the Latin for
>five.

Try "quintet": a group of five persons or things, from the Italian
Quintetto, from the itallian Quinto, meaning fifth, from the Latin
Quintus.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 20:26:31 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com (RJ Pietkivitch)
Subject: Re: Chaos, ty'iga, Time Travel, spoilers

From: Cate3.PA@xerox.com
> If time travel is possible in the Amber universe, I'm sure Zelazny
> would have written more about it.  And if time travel were
> possible, more Amberites would have used it.

I have to agree with you here.  But these Amberites seem a somewhat
sluggish.  Perhaps it comes with being an Amberite in the first
place?

>      I'm surprised the Amberites don't spend more time in fast
> moving shadow worlds, where there is a greater chance for growth
> and development.  (But of course most of the Amberites haven't
> been into productive things, they have been more into indulging in
> pleasures, fighting for power, and taking revenge.)
>      Seems like one thing which would be useful would be to find a
> world going really fast (maybe a 1000 to 1?) and marry a hundred
> women, and try to raise a brood of kids.

Not to be nit-picky, but why marry em?  I don't think Xtain values
*have* to apply to these shadow-worlds.  This is not a flame, just a
comment...

Bob Pietkivitch
UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #457
Date: 20 Oct 87 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #457
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 87 0846-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #457
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 457

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (8 msgs) &
                             Doctor Who (4 msgs) &
                             Thunderbirds & Blake's 7 &
                             Battlestar Galactica

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 17:14:06 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>Does anybody else feel that the characters in this show are
>ridiculously tolerent of nasty behaviour by other characters, in
>particular Lynch?
>
>In the first episode, Lynch created the blipvert, proclaiming that
>he only made the bomb, he didn't drop it.  (In the Channel 4
>original he was quite a nasty character.)
>
>Later, at his computer console, he causes an elevator with Edison
>Carter in it to plummet out of control.  He then raises the parking
>gate so that Carter smashes into it on his bike.  In other words,
>two deliberate attempts at remote, pre-meditated murder.  (Later,
>he performs a tremendous invasion of privacy and creates the
>construct.)

In the above example, Lynch worked solely for Network 23.  In the
original movie he followed what the network head told him to do.  He
never got chummy with Edison.  His relationship with Edison was
changed in the American version for TV.  In the movie version
released on American TV, Lynch and Edison get chummy at the end.
After having recently seen the original movie, I couldn't believe
how they had corrupted the ending so that Bryce's character could
continue.  The original Bryce had no socially redeeming qualities
whatsoever.

I think that the original was better because Lynch's character was
more consistent.  The writers of the series obviously feel that they
don't need consistency in their characters, so they can make them do
anything they want.  The perfect example of this was having Lynch
set up Blank Reg.  However (and this is a big however), Lynch is
still an adolescent.  He is unpredictable and no matter how
intelligent he is. He still isn't matured enough to realize that
setting up Reg will cause problems for Reg.

>And Blank Reg?  One minute he's part of a conspiracy to zap all the
>world's computer systems and kill Max Headroom, but he repents and
>is an instant trusted pal.

Which episode or movie did you get this one from?  I don't remember
him ever trying to kill Max.

>What about the executives at Network 23?  First the chairman of the
>board tries to get him killed.  Next a board member is part of a
>conspiracy to kill a young woman to save an older woman's life.
>Cheviet, the new chairman, is never very fun.  Last week, a board
>member arranges for the kidnap and destruction of Max Headroom.

I think this is more corporate backstabbing than anything else.
It's just that '20 Minutes into the Future' has backstabbing on a
much grander scale.

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 17:57:55 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Few opinions on the new TV season

I haven't watched Max Headroom much, but what computer references I
got were pretty bogus.  "Download the ROM!" is typical.

Another episode had a Big Crisis timed to sunset -- and foiled by
someone holding a flashlight up to the crucial photocell.  Never
explained why they didn't just say go to a console and type "set s
to sunset time, destroy world at s."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Oct 87 18:04:10 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Max Headroom and Cyberpunk

Let me rephrase my earlier question. Is "Max Headroom: The Original
Story" cyberpunk?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 87 22:05:31 GMT
From: uunet!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Few opinions on the new TV season

   What did I think of Max Headroom?  Well, it's dull.  I have only
watched 1 complete episode and bits and pieces of others.  I have no
intention of watching more of it.

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto, (416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 19:35:28 GMT
From: ames!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom and Blanks

A024012@RUTVM1.BITNET writes:
> ... he asked what the Blanks were.  I told him, but in discussion
> I realized that I can't show very many examples of Blanks and
> Blank Culture in SF.  There are the obvious examples ("My Name Is
> Legion" by Zelazny; "Shockwave Rider" by Brunner), but not much
> more.

"Coils" by Saberhagen and Zelazny.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,ames}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 6 Oct 87 21:21:11 GMT
From: crawford@endor.harvard.edu (Alexander Crawford)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom, new season

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>Does anybody else feel that the characters in this show are
>ridiculously tolerent of nasty behaviour by other characters, in
>particular Lynch?
> . . .  Later, at his computer console, he causes an elevator with
>Edison Carter in it to plummet out of control.  He then raises the
>parking gate so that Carter smashes into it on his bike.  In other
>words, two deliberate attempts at remote, pre-meditated murder.
>(Later, he performs a tremendous invasion of privacy and creates
>the construct.)
>
>In the next episode, Lynch and Carter are chums?  I just found it a
>bit hard to believe.

You're right, Brad.  So, what should we blame it on?  Each episode
has about five story editors!  This makes for fairly tight
consistent shows individually, but if the Network keeps changing
their editors, continuity between shows is lost.  One of the major
problems for TV writers is coming up with believable characters and
developing them, so sometimes a particular "bad guy" is just too
good to chuck after one episode, and blast continuity.

To quote the Chairman of Network 23, "The plot's too complicated -
we're losing the five-to-eleven-year-old market!".  This is
apparently the feeling about M.H. at the Network.  I certainly hope
this doesn't affect the show.

Alec
crawford@endor.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 87 10:52:11 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Max Headroom is gone...

Caught this news on Entertainment Tonight on Wednesday, 14 Oct.:

The network has cancelled Max Headroom abruptly, in the midst of
production of a show (cutting work off and cancelling it the
afternoon of 13 Oct.) due to the show's low ratings. The episode
scheduled for Friday, 16 Oct., will be the last one shown. There are
three more episodes already produced which will NOT be shown (though
there is a possibility that somebody will buy them for cable or
syndication).

Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 13:39:57 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

From: Dave Goldblatt <bh0u@clutx.clarkson.edu>
>Just heard on the news that ABC has banished Max Headroom to
>/dev/nul..  Guess the networks "simplification scheme" didn't
>work..  Oh, well.. Another SF show down the tube..

I heard that there are two more episodes of MH in the can, but ABC
refuses to broadcast them.  Any chance of getting "Americans for
Quality Television" to resurrect the show?  Maybe on FOX?  They
saved Cagney and Lacey, the least they can do is help poor Max...

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom
Fone:  (301)454-8886

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 87  12:56:35 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Menoptera

I am planning to make a duplicate costume of the Menoptera from the
Doctor Who story "The Web Planet". If anyone knows of or has a color
photo of a Menoptera I'd really appreciate seeing it. Thanx.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 87 12:10:51 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Robin <CLS22@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Dr Who

    Hmmm, well I actually managed to sit through the last episode of
the first story last night, and I've got one or two suggestions to
make...

1. Kill Bonnie Langford.
2. Kill Bonnie Langford (again).
3. Chop up Bonnie Langford and jump on the bits until one gets
   blisters ((C) D.Adams)
4. Take the little bits and put them into a supernova 5 seconds
   before the end of the universe.
5. Repeat steps 1-4 with the Rani.

    As you can tell, I didn't think much of the new series.
Sylvester McCoy *may* improve with time (pun unintentional, but
quite good anyway :-), but I don't think B.L.  will.  She only seems
to be any good at screaming and fainting when the script gets too
predictable for even her to cope with.  Here's to hoping something
*very* unpleasant happens to her (I've never forgiven the series
killing off Adric and not bringing out K9 mark III !)

Hopefully the next story will start something like this...

    The Doctor (Tom Baker, of course) is woken up by Adric, K9, and
Romana, and says "My, what a strange dream I just had...".  The
series can then continue as normal (with it's budget trebled).
Hmmmm - I think this idea's been used in a different series :-)

Robin

P.S. No matter how many times B.L.  fell over, got carried for miles
by a creature which couldn't understand the concept of washing, her
clothes remained remarkably clean!

------------------------------

Date: 1 Oct 87 13:47:10 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: "Doctor Who -- The Movie"

The following was mailed to "Doctor Who" clubs belonging
to the APC Club Network on 10/1/87

News as of 9/29/87

NEWS ON THE "Doctor Who" MOVIE!!
The following is directly from the Movie Production Office:
  Coast To Coast Productions has been awarded a contract by the BBC,
with the approval of the DW Production Office, for *three* DW
feature films.  The first of the series will be produced and
directed by Peter Litten and George Dugdale -- who are most famous
recently for creating the prosthetic makeup effects and the visual
image for the "Max Headroom" show.  They have done SFX for DW and
"Blakes 7".  Peter's mentor is Chris Tucker ("Elephant Man," "Quest
For Fire") The screenplay is complete -- written by Mark Ezra.
Peter and George are currently in Los Angeles negotiating for
American distribution with major American studios.  The film is
fully financed (privately) with a working budget of $14 million.
The current plan calls for actual preproduction to begin in January,
Special Effects work has already begun in London.  Principal
photography is scheduled to begin in April in Ireland.  Release is
currently expected to be in November in conjunction with the 25th
anniversary of the show.  There is no specific information on the
story line, but the Doctor will be in the tradition of the TV Show
(not the previous movies!).  He will be a Time Lord from Gallifrey.
The Doctor will have three companions: one male, one female, and one
"surprise".  The female companion has been cast and will be played
by Caroline Munro.  The Doctor has not been cast.  It will be a
British actor.  Peter and George are very interested in any ideas
fans have about who should be cast in the role.

IF YOU WANT TO SUGGEST/NOMINATE SOMEONE, PLEASE SEND YOUR
SUGGESTIONS -- AND ANY REASONING BEHIND THE SUGGESTION -- TO ME:
E-mail and POSTAWFUL address below.  I will send all the input I
receive to the Movie Production Office and post results to the net.
(It may be a while, as the non-electronic clubs have to get issues
of their newesletter out to their members.  If you are a member of a
club that does not belong to the APC Net, you have permission to
reprint this article -- if you send me a copy of the newsletter that
has the article in it.

The tentative title for the film is "DOCTOR WHO -- THE MOVIE."  If
you have an opinion about that title or an alternate title, please
let me know and I'll send that on as well.

(My suggestion to them was that if they cast Tom Baker as the
Doctor, then they could call it "The Golden Voyage of Doctor Who."
:-)

Jean Airey
1306 W. Illinois
Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 28 Sep 87 16:59:46 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil P. Marsh)
Subject: Re: I asked him his name, and he told me the Doctor.

nutto@UMass writes:
> I can't remember which, but he died at a convention about 6 months
> ago of diabetic shock. If you've ever seen him in person that
> black bag he always carried around contained his insulin supply.

Ian Marter died in England about a year ago, it was Troughton that
died at Magnum Opus Con in Atlanta, Ga. at the end of March this
year.

>3. What's the latest word on complete stories from Hartnell and
>Troughton?  Has The Tenth Planet finally found its missing episode?
>What's the status on Enemy of the World?  A list would be helpful;
>here's what I have (on video-tape, at least - good old PBS
>cycling):

> The fourth episode of The Tenth planet was recently turned in to
> the BBC by a British fan. Bits of other stories still exist but I
> don't have a complete list with me right now.

The last episode of THE TENTH PLANET has not been returned -- yet.
The fan holding the missing episode is waiting for someone else to
turn in an episode because he fears the BBC might press charges
against him for having it.

> Here is a list of all the Troughton episodes that still exist on
> video: Invasion #2,3,5-8

Episodes 1 & 4 of THE INVASION have just been found, as have all
episodes of THE MACRA TERROR.

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87  15:54:54 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Thunderbirds : International Rescue

Does anybody else remember the British TV series "Thunderbirds" done
by Gerry Anderson back in the 70's? The characters were made in the
style of "Terrahawks" and featured a family-run secret organization
called International Rescue. The base was on an island and the five
sons each piloted one of the 5 Thunderbird craft. If I recall #1 was
a atmosphere rocket, #2 looked like a fat Boeing, #3 was a space
rocket, #4 was a small submarine, and #5 was a space station.
Various episodes had the team involving in plane crashes, volcanos,
meteor storms, and large fires. I quite liked it.

andy

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 18:01:43 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@RUTGERS.EDU (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Blake's 7 Convention Announcement

Spotted this weekend--convention info for those who are interested:

                   ATTENTION ALL BLAKE'S 7 FANS!!

                               ORAC,
           a limited attendance, Alpha-grade convention,
                            IS COMING!!!

Just when you were about to give up all hope, here we come!
ORAC - a West Coast B7 convention with confirmed guests:
   Michael Keating (Vila Restal)
   Terry Nation (series creator)
(More guests to be announced as confirmed.  All subject to
professional commitments.)

Join us APRIL 9 and 10, 1988 at the CLARION HOTEL, located near the
San Francisco airport (in California, of course).  Show your support
for Blake's 7 and help us help KTEH Channel 54, our local PBS
station and sponsor of Blake's 7.

Memberships will not be sold at the door and attendance WILL be
limited, so register early.

For more information send a SASE to:

   ORAC
   1131 Landing Lane
   Milbrae, CA   94030

------------------------------

Date: Sun 18 Oct 87 14:19:25-PDT
From: Joseph D. Jacobs <JACOBS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Battlestar Galactica

   As mentioned in a recent discussion, Tolkien seems to be
sacrosanct by many of the posters to sf-lovers.  On the other hand,
Battlestar Galactica seems to be at the other end of the spectrum --
getting only endless criticism and snide remarks.  Why is this?  I
personally thought it was a rather good series.  From what I've seen
so far, I would definitely rank it above Star Trek: TNG.

Joseph
jacobs@sushi.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #458
Date: 20 Oct 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #458
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 87 0901-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #458
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 458

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13-Oct-1987 1155
From: leavitt%hpscad.DEC@decwrl.dec.com  (Eric Leavitt)
Subject: Tolkien Love/Hate

In response to recent postings about The Lord of the Rings:
> I have to agree with your first point.  It does seem untouchable
> by the net, while everything else is subject to opinions from
> "horrendous" to "magnificent."  Why should it be that LOTR gets
> only good reviews?

Many SF-Lovers have made clear over the years that they didn't like
LOTR.  What is somewhat unusual about it is the extent to which it
is discussed.  In these extended discussions, it is natural that
they are carried on by the hard-core affectionadoes, while the
non-believers quickly drop out.

For myself, a digest full of Tolkien messages means a few minutes of
bliss, while a digest full Star Trek, or Aliens discussions is
instantly deleted.  I'm sure those other discussions are often
filled with adoring comments.  They don't include my negative ones.

In short, if you don't like it then that's fine - you don't have to
participate.  Many of us love it.

> So, given all this, why do people think so highly of it?  Simply
> put, because it was the first.

Absolutely NOT true!!  It was far from the first fantasy book I
read, but it has been quite unique in its impact.  What LOTR
delivers is a tremendous sense of history and destiny.  The universe
of Middle Earth seems incredibly well built and real.  This is
underscored by the trend towards the loss of power and beauty that
takes place in this universe.  This melancholy background lends
strength to the victories that take place.

The fascination for me lies in the development of the characters'
relationship with their destiny.  As the hobbits change from
characters with a very parochial perspective to characters with a
real understanding of the workings and history of their world, I
feel real amazement at the complexity of that world, and true awe at
how small a part of it their original outlook contained.

The story never uses the "gimmick" of turning them into super
heroes.  They always retain their contrast with the Elder forces.
Against this background the story plays the old plot of the weak
saving the world by sticking to their self-belief and acceptance of
their fate.  A plot that may be quite archetypal, but that is not
carried off so convincingly in any other story I have read.

If I have a complaint with it, it is that it is so well done, that
it has effectively spoiled the whole genre for me.  Any other book
that attempts to deliver the same experience as the LOTR falls down
as pale in comparison.  While I usually don't sympathize with the
"ripoff" complaints about similar stories, (authors put a tremendous
amount of creative work into other aspects of a story than the plot
synopsis) I do find myself uninterested in them.

Of course, if you haven't discovered this by the end of the first
volume, then you probably should put it down, and you CERTAINLY
should not attempt the SILMARILLION!  That is clearly for the
die-hards.  But please grant the Tolkien lovers out here our little
discussions.

Eric Leavitt
DEC-Marlboro

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 19:35:33 GMT
From: slb@drutx.att.com (Sue Brezden)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

granger@cg-atla.UUCP (Peter Granger ) writes:
>   Now back to the original question, just what is it, aside from
> tradition, that makes people think "Lord of the Rings" is so
> great?  This is an honest question.  I really want to know.

And it's a fair question.  As a Tolkien fan for 20 years (although
an uneven one--I didn't read "The Hobbit" until a couple of years
ago) I can try to answer it for myself.

   1.  The pacing.  You found it slow.  Well, some of us like
       that.  It's a set of books to savor.  As a matter of fact,
       it's a set of books to read out loud.  I actually have read
       LOTR semi-out loud to myself, moving my lips to each word.
       It sings.  The language is perfect.  The only author I've
       found to match him in that department is Jane Austen.  (Gene
       Wolfe comes close, if you want a modern comparison.)

   2.  A second point on pacing is the alternation of peril and
       ordinariness.  Notice that the points of excitement and
       adventure are followed by a rest.  For instance, the crossing
       of the ford is followed by a rest and the council.  The woods
       of Galadriel is a rest from the mines of Moria.  The Ents are
       relaxing after Merry and Pippin go through the capture by the
       orcs.  There are lots of other examples, too.  My favorite is
       the rabbit-cooking scene at the very edge of Mordor.  Life is
       like that.  We don't live at a frantic pace all the time.
       Tolkien is wonderful at throwing all the evil and hard work
       at his heroes that they can stand--then giving them a
       vacation.  I've never read an author who did this better.
       And there's that alternation in the large going on, too--the
       contrast of the quiet shire and the big nasty world.

   3.  The poems.  Unlike even some Tolkien fans I know, I like
       the poems.  I didn't on first and even second reading--and
       skipped them.  However, when I got to the reading out loud
       stage, I found them fitting.  There's a reason they are
       there.  They are mood-altering.

   4.  There is a real world there.  You get the feeling that
       it is complete--down to the last pronoun in the last
       language, down to the last tree in Mirkwood, and that it all
       fits.

   5.  The characters are real.  They grow and change.  Gimli,
       for example, and his relationship with Legolas.  They learn
       to live with each other.  Merry and Pippin grow up.  The way
       Frodo is thrown into giant doings beyond his capacity,
       really, and comes out ok not because of any big heroic thing
       he does--because he actually fails the task in the end, but
       because of his moments of compassion.  It's ordinary people
       doing extraordinary things.

   6.  The plot always says new things to me.  Actually, this is how
       I personally judge whether something is really art.  Can I
       pick it up 10 years later when I'm in a totally new life
       situation--and not only get something out of it, but get
       completely NEW things out of it?  Art grows with you.  I see
       the same timelessness in "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue", "War
       and Peace", and "Dr. Strangelove".

How's that?  (BTW, I don't like Donaldson, either.)

Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 20:11:19 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker (and other target practice favorites)

billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>Tonight's First Topic: Raymond Feist
>Les Kay, cheeser@dasys1.UUCP:
>>I have to disagree violently with the statement (used to death
>>around here) that so-and-so, Feist in this case, lifts too much
>>from Tolkein.  Where?
>
>I guess you've got me there. I can't think of any other fantasy
>milieu where there are dwarves, elves, intelligent dragons..

Actually, it is fairly clear to me, based on things I have heard as
well as the internals of the books, that Feist lifted his background
from the game Dungeons and Dragons, rather than from Tolkien.  Of
course, this only pushes it back one level, since Dungeons and
Dragons lifted *its* background mostly from Tolkien.

Of course, Tolkien lifted most of *his* background from existing
mythology.  He did a better job than most of making it his own, but
dwarves, elves, dragons, the conflict between good and evil, the
king in hiding, the powerful wizard who doesn't use his powers much,
etc., etc.; all these are familiar mythic elements.  The myth of
Atlantis was used almost intact.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 08:07:19 GMT
From: jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

hilda@tcom.stc.co.uk writes:
>I found the content bitty, the characters wooden, and the ending a
>terrible anti-climax. I struggled through the Silmarillion, which I
>have to say was self-righteous rubbish.
>
>Surely somebody else must agree with me ?

I would certainly agree that the ending was an anti-climax; I also
object to a work of that length that has me struggling through it
(especially the boring part with Sam & Frodo making their own way to
Mordor), that has a "climax" that had me rolling around in hysterics
for five minutes!

I have forced myself to re-read LOTR on several occasions, and
whilst I can see the good aspects of the story, I feel that it is a
touch too long- winded to make the book the classic that everyone
seem to think it is.

In saying all this, I do enjoy listening to the BBC radio 4
serialisation of the book - it gets the story over without too many
lengthy, uninteresting sections. (Even if it does miss some good
parts from the book as well!)

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 13:07:29 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

This is interesting.

My 2 bits...

   The first time I picked up LoTR, I quit after about 90 or so
pages.  The book started really slow ...  Background for the Rings
was interesting, party was tedious, so was the departure, and
subsequent journeying for the little buggers...
   I also found some of the Elven poems and songs a little grinding.
Not because they were horrible, just because they were boring.
   However, once I started reading the series again (From the Barrow
wight on) I really enjoyed it.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 13:49:03 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) writes:
>I would certainly agree that the ending was an anti-climax; I also
>object to a work of that length that has me struggling through it
>(especially the boring part with Sam & Frodo making their own way
>to Mordor), that has a "climax" that had me rolling around in
>hysterics for five minutes!

The part of the book where Frodo and Sam are trying to get to Mordor
is one of the parts that convince me that Tolkien was a genius. He
so perfectly captures their difficulties that the reader has a very
hard time reading about them: their weariness and despair come
through so strongly that you just want to quit. This ability to
evoke strong emotion is one of the things that make LOTR a true
fantasy classic.

Ned Danieley
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807 or 684-6942

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1987 16:56 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

Here is my 2cents worth.

I first tried to read the LoTR by starting at the beginning of Vol 1
being, at that time a logical teenager - and got stuck in the
Forward.  Later, when more creative at college I skipped the forward
into the start of the action and suddenly the book took hold - if
you are the son of a failed farmer and are living in London the
Shire is deeply attractive. I finished it in about three weeks.

That was in 1963 or 64.

I was reading much SF and normally didn't re-read anything but the
knowlegde that there were several languages in millenia of history
made me save up and buy the hardback edition and study it in detail,
and meet and talk with other people, some of whom could write the
various scripts as well as English.

We had to wait until the silmarillion came out to find out more
about Tolkien.

I think it was the attraction of a gigantic unknown history waiting
to be discovered that made JRRTolkien so attractive to us.  Yes I
skipped the verses - It is a rare poem that an speak to the word
blind. THe slow parts are redolent of a vanished British culture
that is full of nostalgia - and the books passed an important test
- I could close my eyes and see what was being described.

BAD PUN WARNING!

Stop if you have heard this one but it appears that Tolkien is
Hobbit Forming.

Dick Botting
Comp Sci
Cal State, San Ber'do
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
5500 State University Pkwy
San Bernardino, CA 92407
(714) 887-7368

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 87 11:07 CDT
From: David Meile <DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.LABMED.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Tolkien: what makes a great book?

>  Now back to the original question, just what is it, aside from
>tradition, that makes people think "Lord of the Rings" is so great?
>This is an honest question.  I really want to know.

An answer to your original question must be based on several
assumptions about "greatness".  When I get down to the task of
asking myself "Was this a great tale, or merely entertaining?", I
find that I must answer this in view of several other questions.
I've listed some of these below.

I first came across _Lord of the Rings_ when I was in fifth grade.
A local library had the "infamous" ACE paperback edition, where I
began by reading _The Return of the King_.  Of course, being the
last two volumes of a "hexology" (there are, after all, six "books"
in _Lord of the Rings_), it made less sense than starting with _The
Fellowship of the Ring_.  It was a year later that I finally got a
complete copy (the "authorized" paperback) for my birthday.  I then
sat down to read it completely.

The tale was ... complex.  I reveled in the description of this new
land called Middle Earth.  The journey from the Shire to Mordor made
Middle Earth a concrete place in a way that few books have done for
me since then.  The tragedy of Boromir, the failings of Gandalf, the
heroism of Samwise, the evil of the Ring itself -- these things (and
many, many more) helped to shape/clarify some of my own life-values.
On re-reading the books (something I've done on the average of once
every 5 years since) I find new things which I can integrate into
those life-values.

The people within _The Lord of the Rings_ are as "real" as any
character I have found in other books.  Actually, they are more
"real" than most -- Tolkien endowed them with truly human qualities.
I can understand Boromir's desire to seize the Ring (and sympathize,
even though I agree completely with the need to destroy it).
Gandalf is not some all-omnipotent wizard.  He is a shrewd judge of
character, from years of experience, yet he still lets impatience
and fear cloud his judgement.  Frodo is not a hero, nor especially
brave.  He does what he considers his duty, even though he fully
expects to die before he can accomplish the destruction of the Ring.
I _believe_ in these characters.  If they were not fictional, I
would want them as friends.

What makes _Lord of the Rings_ great, and others not so great, could
be summed up, I guess, as "I _cared_ about the outcome."

A "not so great" trilogy is Stephen Donaldson's series involving
Thomas Covenant.  I consider it not so great for the simple reason
that it went on to a second trilogy.  Covenant had learned
_nothing_.  All of the suffering endured in the first three books
had to be resuffered.  All of the unbelief had to be once more
unbelieved.  I felt cheated, and no matter how well written the
books are, they can no longer be considered anything more than
"entertainment".

Here are a few of the questions I ask myself when considering
whether a book is "great" or merely entertaining.  Please note that
I read a _lot_ of fantasy and science fiction novels.  And the
majority of them are merely entertaining.

1) Does the book make me feel as if "I am there"?
2) Do I _care_ about the characters?
3) Do I feel/see things differently after I've read the book than I
   did before?

Some "great" books: _War for the Oaks_ by Emma Bull, _Time Enough
for Love_ by Robert A. Heinlein, _Always Coming Home_ by Ursula K.
LeGuin, the _Wrinkle in Time_ series by Madelaine L'Engel, _Lord of
the Rings_ by J.R.R. Tolkien, _Aegypt_ by John Crowley.

David Meile
davidli@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
davidli@simvax.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #459
Date: 20 Oct 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #459
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 87 0915-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #459
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 459

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Oct 87 04:44:17 GMT
From: david@rmstar.limbo.mn.org (David C. Holst)
Subject: Re: Star Trek transporters

roger@homxb.UUCP (R.TAIT) writes:
>dml@NADC.ARPA writes:
>>   My question is, if the Federation knows how to make stasis
>> fields, why don't they use them in other places?  As Vernor Vinge
>> (_The Peace War_) and Larry Niven (slaver boxes) know, a stasis
>> field is a dandy place to put things you want to keep, since
>> nothing can harm something in stasis.  For example, you could
>> ring the Enterprise with stasis fields.  Any object trying to hit
>> the ship would then have to go through the fields -- but nothing
>> can go through the fields, since time has stopped within the
>> fields.
>
>Enclosing your ship in a stasis field won't do anything but turn
>you into a sitting duck.  If you've enclosed your starship in a
>stasis field for protection, someone else has to get you out.

   Has anyone considered a surrounding a ship with a stasis field,
as opposed to enclosing it?  Presumably, the ship would have the
ability to shut off the stasis (as the ship would in essence be in
the center of a 'hollow sphere of stasis').

David C. Holst
david@rmstar.limbo.MN.ORG

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 87 15:15:41 CZT
From: "Steve C. Gonzales" <$CS1136%LSUVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Transwarp Drive

> Does anyone have any idea how it (Transwarp drive) works?  What
> about the NCC-1701-A shown at the end of STIV, the voyage home?
> Will it have the transwarp drive?

     Transwarp Drive originated with the "classic' Star Trek
episode, "The Tholian Web." That's where Kirk in the Starship
Defiant crosses over into a parallel universe. In that universe time
is slower. Therefore, if a starship could cross over into it, a trip
of three weeks in normal space would take four days in the parallel
universe. The full explanation is in "Mr. Scott's Guide to the
Enterprise" by Shane Johnson. It's available at almost every
bookstore. And, yes, according to the book, it IS a combination of
transportatoin and warp drive technologies. By the way, this book
describes the deck by deck layout of the Enterprise NCC-1701-A. So,
yes, the new Enterprise NCC-1701-A will have it, making it one of
the fastest and most manueverable in Starfleet.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 21:56:22 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Stasis Fields

ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK writes:
> In general Stasis fields are not described as STOPPING time,
> rather just slowing it down a lot.  So those people inside only
> need a timer to flip the switch the other way after a few
> nanoseconds(=days on the outside).
>
> This don't help much though because the Klingons will have pushed
> you into a nearby star so when you come out of Stasis you get a
> (short) shock...

This is where high-speed computers/sensors come in handy...

Read a solution to this problem in Vinge's "Marooned in Real Time".
When the stasis field drops, your sensors note a hot day at the
beach, and pop up the field again...and again...  until either
something fails, or your power runs out (sometime in the next
billion years or so) or friends finally figure out where you've gone
and devise a way to move you to cooler climate.

In any case, it would be a deuced nuisance!

What isn't addressed is what is your financial state going to be
like?  You're not dead (?), does mandatory retirement apply?  What
about taxes, back pay, cultural or genetic drift, dental
appointments...?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 21:55:30 GMT
From: OPGARVIN%NCSUVM.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Transwarp

   As I understand it, transwarp drive works differently from warp
drive.  Transwarp puts the ship into another pocket of space where a
journey of, say, two weeks takes two weeks to the crew, but only
takes two days to the outside world.
   Sounds like the old problem of getting near the speed of light,
huh?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 06:31:59 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!davidg@RUTGERS.EDU (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Transwarp Drive and speeds Faster Than Warp Ten

LEE_JES@CTSTATEU.BITNET says:
> There has recently been a volume of mail concerning the Transwarp
> Drive and the insane "Warp Ten" limit on the new Star Trek.
[some stuff deleted]
> If it ruins the story, I suppose, the technology is disposable.
> (Cf the lack of the shuttlecraft in "The Enemy Within".)

What in the world are you talking about?  As of "The Enemy Within",
they hadn't yet put shuttlecraft on the Enterprise (at this point in
the series).

> As to Warp Ten being the limit: In the ST:TNG Writers' Guide, Gene
> Roddenberry writes:
>      Warp 10 is the physical limit of the universe -- beyond that
> normal time-space relationships do not exist and a ship at that
> velocity may simply _cease_to_exist_.
>
> Of course, this ignores the many times when the Enterprise was
> taken over by the numerous alien life (and machine) forms who
> seemed to have a fascination with making the Enterprise go Warp
> 11.  Nor does it explain why the Enterprise shakes at speeds close
> to Warp 10.  (Sort of like my car when it tries to go over 80.)

One thing that I have seen in rec.arts.startrek is that the speed of
each warp factor is much faster than what it used to be in the
original series, so I don't think that a warp 10 limit is all that
bad (the old formula for figuring out what your speed is was wf^3*c
(wf = warp factor, c = speed of light), the new formula comes to
something much closer to wf^5*c (if I remember Rich Kolker
correctly)).

> Even then, the transporter is just not feasible.  As in the novel
> "Spock Must Die", the original body is completely destroyed, the
> first time anyone uses the transporter.  I would propose a
> modification of warp technology

I, personally, have never considered any of the Star Trek novels,
however entertaining, to be "official".  The big problem with them
is that they're written by fans & not anyone with any real contacts
to Paramount.  They (the fan-authors) tend to write things into the
books that they would have liked to have seen, which is how you get
rediculous (sp?) stories where the Enterprise LANDS ON A PLANET,
etc.  Therefore, based on "Spock Must Die" only, I don't buy that
transporter theory.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4, codas}!killer!davidg
INET: davidg@killer.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 87  10:23:42 EDT
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: STTNG warp drive

Watching the warp effects in the first episode of STTNG, I have
finally figured out how the warp drive of the new Enterprise works
(remember that the transwarp drive was a complete failure even after
Scotty's sabotage was repaired). They anchor the rear of the
NCC-1701 D onto a thread of the fabric that makes up the spacetime
continuum. Then they stretch the front of the shift forward in space
a few kilometers. The rear is suddenly released, and the starship
snaps forward at high velocity just like a giant rubber band.
Twaaaaaaaaaaang!

andy

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 21:31:58 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.psu.edu (Scott E. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Transwarp Drive and speeds Faster Than Warp Ten

davidg@killer.UUCP (David Guntner) writes:
>>      As in the novel "Spock Must Die",
>I, personally, have never considered any of the Star Trek novels,
>however entertaining, to be "official".  The big problem with them
>is that they're written by fans & not anyone with any real contacts
>to Paramount.  They (the fan-authors) tend to write things into the
>books that they would have liked to have seen, which is how you get
>rediculous (sp?) stories where the Enterprise LANDS ON A PLANET,
>etc.  Therefore, based on "Spock Must Die" only, I don't buy that
>transporter theory.

Objection: "Spock Must Die" was written by James Blish, who was a
real live SF author with independent fame to his name.  He was the
first to write one of these unofficial stories, as it happens, but I
really feel that he was writing in a different capacity than a
daydreaming fan.

Aside from the slight on James Blish, you are 100% correct.

In short, Books are irrelevent, TV rules.  :-)

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 15:05:04 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Bryce/Wesley

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>I thought Wes Crusher in "The Naked Now" was more than a little
>like Bryce from M-M-M-Max--anybody else?

Not at all. I like Bryce and I enjoy his performances. On the other
hand, I loathe Wes and I have serious hopes that Picard will make
him clean the torpedo tubes by hand and then forget Wes is down
there and...

But seriously, Bryce fits into his world. As we have seen Bryce is
not unique and he also isn't the best. There is even a school that
turns out children like Bryce. Also, Bryce isn't so incredibly good
that trained professionals don't stand a chance of keeping up with
him.

Wesley, on the other hand, is unique. He is not a genius. He is a
supergenius.  He is capable of building a tractor beam from scratch
and rewiring a ship's tractor beam in a matter of minutes when a
trained professional who has risen to the post of department head
couldn't possibly do the same without taking several days to do it.
I hate Wesley Crusher. Nothing would make me happier than to see
something fatal happen to this character.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,ut-ngp}!gitpyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 87 12:12:30 EDT
From: mullen@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Star Trek, The New Generation

   I have been reading SF-LOVERS for about 9 months but have never
provided input until now.I thought I'd throw in my .02 worth (maybe
even .03) about the new Star Trek.
   Like others before me, I watched with mixed feelings and frankly
was prepared to find things wrong as I compared the new and the old.
And there was a lot I didn't like.  But there was also a lot I did
like.
   When the first show started and the captain walked out I thought,
'My God, he's a bald-headed, skinny old man'.  It didn't take long
however, for his character to assert itself and my impression at
this time is 'Here is a strong, mature leader who is definitely IN
CHARGE'.  In short, I like him... The first officer I have doubts
about although I think it is more personality dislike on my part.
They will have to careful with him however, and not let him become
too strong or independent...  The Councelor, although extremely
attractive (liked the short skirt) is a washout. Reading minds or
feelings makes it too easy for the writers to work themselves out of
a hole that bad writting got them into... I really like the female
Security Officer. I disagree with some who have said she is too
aggressive. In that line of work I would think that is normal, even
necessary. I don't really see why her station is on the bridge
though. (Maybe to keep the Captain from assaulting the kid?)
   I like the Doctor (I like red-heads) and they are fooling around
with a 'just under the surface but we are much too professional to
let it happen' romance with her and the captain. This could be fun
provided they don't let it go on and on... I have a real problem
with a drunk, 12 year old kid solving a complicated engineering
problem that the chief engineer couldn't do.  It stretches the
credibility to the limits (possibly where no man has gone
before)...Speaking of the Chief Engineer...no way. Everyone knows
(at least it feels right) that chief engineers are middle-age men
with oily rags (optional)hanging out of their back pockets.
   The Klingon and Data have a LOT of potential and are going to add
a lot of fun to the show. The blind guy with the $2.50 banana hair
clip on his face is going to take a lot of work (I suppose he can
see through walls).
   I really don't like the idea of families on board due to (believe
it or not) the limitations it imposes.  Someone mentioned that the
old Enterprise was not considered a line battleship but a research
and exploration ship. Well, in three years they got in one hell of a
lot of battles.  With families to protect are they going to split
the ship up every time they run into a fighting situation? Can you
imagine a parent staying at his or hers post when they know that
their living quarters on deck five just got blasted?
   There seems to be two types of fans out there. Those that want a
new version of the old Star Trek and those that want something brand
new. It looks to me like Roddenberry tried to do both at the same
time which means that neither is very satisfactory. If the producers
don't allow the show to revolve around just a few characters (Buck
Rogers, Battlestar G.) or fall into any of the other trends that
networks push the show into (and please give it a better time slot
then 7:00 on Saturday) I think it will establish itself in a short
time on its own merit (or lack of) and we won't be comparing it to
the original. I have hope for it and give it a +1.

(Of course what do I know, I like ALF)

Paul Mullen
Ft. Bragg, N.C.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 19:44:07 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG  *spoilers*

From: DEGSUSM%YALEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>In "The Naked Now", who infected Captain Picard with
>whatever-it-was?  Assuming he was infected when he spoke to Doctor
>Crusher in the briefing room, who did it?  the doctor DID NOT TOUCH
>HIM.

Ah, but what happened outside of the camera frame?  She may have
touched him and we didn't see it.:-):-) After all, we do hear him
make that chuckle in the back of his throat.

I asked myself that same question when that scene occured.  I
suppose that the scene where Picard gets infected was the one where
we had a special guest appearance by George Takei, which, of course,
ended up on the cutting room floor!:-):-)

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 87 19:17:55 PDT
From: Bill <Yeager@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #445

It has been a long time since I have posted anything on this list,
although I read it regularly. Lots of good stuff by the way.

To wit: STTNG is really pretty weak. I've watched both episodes, and
will probably watch the rest(STTNG is still better than most other
TV shows except the Star Trek, Prisoner and Dr. Who reruns. I guess
this pigeon holes my taste!). The difficulty is with the extremely
banal characters. Why oh why didn't they cast STTNG with actors who
can play their parts with some depth. Pretty simple minded crew if
you ask me ... dull dull dull folks ...

Oh well, back to rereading "The Mote in God's Eye."

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 00:03:37 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Star Wreck : The Last Generation

From: raoul@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV
> He then decides to do the detach-flying-saucer bit to save the
> families and turns around to face the enemy in battle
> configuration.  Maybe he can detain this SCA reject long enough so
> that the families can escape.
>
> This is a noble cause.  What does he do now?  He SURRENDERS!
> Unconditionally at that!  Without taking a hit.

You don't seem to have been paying attention.  We were given the
insight that his motivation was to buy time for the saucer.  He had
already determined to his satisfaction that he could not fight so
was going to have to deal with this some other way.

> Would Kirk do such a thing!?

Yes.  In fact it did similar things before, only what he did was
lead the bad guys away from a planet.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 20-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #460
Date: 20 Oct 87 1018-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #460
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Oct 87 1018-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #460
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 20 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 460

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Asimov (2 msgs) &
                    Bester (2 msgs) & Blish (2 msgs) & Card &
                    Delany & Eddison (4 msgs) & Herbert

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 12:55:37 GMT
From: uunet!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes:
>cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>>Good grief, the man writes about all sorts of different themes!
>You are mistaking plot for theme.  Plot is what happens.  Theme is
>why it happens.  The theme is always GOOD (that's Christian Good)
>versus EVIL (Christian Evil).  GOOD always wins.

Far be it for me to defend Anthony against accusations of
duplication of themes - I generally find his books permeated by a
dreary sameness - but this is not quite true. Try reading "Battle
Circle".  It's not as bad as some of his other things and, unless I
misremember (which is possible, it was a long time ago I read it),
the ending was somewhat different.

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

PS - Just to keep the record straight: I liked Xanth #1 & #3 and
think that the "Game" part of the "Adept" series are truly great.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 04:03:19 GMT
From: uunet!unh!rdg501@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D Gaimari)
Subject: Re: Vale of the Vole (by Piers Anthony) Review

After reading this group since mid-summer, I find my favorite author
mentioned.  I also highly recommend the Xanth series, but you should
probably start more toward the begining, since you could miss or not
understand many references in later books (although they are
enjoyable all by themselves).

His Cluster series (sci-fi, not fantasy) is not too bad.  Some of
the books are worth reading simply because of the incredibly unusual
aliens he comes up with; he has a fine imagination.

Another series which he is in the process of writing is the
Incarnations of Immortality (I think it's called), which is very
good, too.  These deal with people being thrust into jobs such as
Death, Fate, War, Time, etc.  Very entertaining.

Thank you, Mr. Anthony.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 17:41:19 GMT
From: uw-beaver!uw-june!mcohen@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael Cohen)
Subject: Asimov query: privacy invader

There is an Asimov story about a historian who invents a machine
that can reenact a conversation that happened in the remote past.
The government tries to mount a conspiracy to supress its release
(because of the invasion of privacy threat it poses), but fails, and
the machine is unleashed into the world.

What's the name of the story and the anthology it appeared in?  (I'm
working on a similar invention.)  Tx.

mcohen@june.cs.washington.edu
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!uw-beaver!uw-june!mcohen

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 06:06:08 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (M S Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Asimov query: privacy invader

mcohen@uw-june.UUCP (Michael Cohen) writes:
>There is an Asimov story about a historian who invents a machine
>that can reenact a conversation that happened in the remote past.
>The government tries to mount a conspiracy to supress its release
>(because of the invasion of privacy threat it poses), but fails,
>and the machine is unleashed into the world.
>
>What's the name of the story and the anthology it appeared in?
>(I'm working on a similar invention.)  Tx.

The story was called "The Dead Past", although I can't remember the
anthologies.  I think it appeared in _The Arbor House Book of Great
Science Fiction Short Novels_ but I'm not certain.

Actually, the device couldn't see more than a hundred and
twenty-five years into the past.  It was based on a speculation of
Asimov's that the (then undetected) neutrino had not been found
because it travelled in time rather than space.  Longer than a
century and a quarter and the signal broke up due to static.  The
people who worked on the machine, a physicist and a historian, built
it despite a government agent's attempt to stop them.  I won't spoil
the ending any more than has already been said, but note that the
agent's motives are not what they seem through the main body of the
story.

M S Schiffer

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 12:37:35 GMT
From: gallmeis@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Bill O. Gallmeister)
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester

kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>For those who haven't tried it, The Stars My Destination is one of
>the all time great SF novels.

I second that motion.  Certainly the best space opera I've ever
read.  Also try: _The Demolished Man_, about getting away with
murder in a society full of telepaths, and _The Computer
Connection_, about ... oh, all sorts of stuff.

On second thought, read everything Alfred Bester wrote.

Bill O. Gallmeister
unc!gallmeis

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 19:08:44 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester

Bill O. Gallmeister writes:
>Also try: _The Demolished Man_, about getting away with murder in a
>society full of telepaths, and _The Computer Connection_, about ...
>oh, all sorts of stuff.  On second thought, read everything Alfred
>Bester wrote.

The Indian Giver (which a cowardly publisher renamed The Computer
Connection when it was converted from Analog serial to novel) was
about about a subculture of mildly wacky immortals, who've been with
us all along.  Simple enough premise, though the execution is
complicated enough.  I could pick a zillion nits with this book, as
one can with anything by Bester, but any serious SF person or
anybody with a serious sense of fun has to read The Indian Giver
anyway.

Unfortunately, I cannot forgive Bester his very last book, Gollum
Aleph-Null (I might have the number wrong).  He does two unholy
things with this book: he indulges in the relentless self-plagiarism
that makes so many of the older SF writers so dreary to read; and he
incorporates some of his best short stories into the novel in a way
that utterly destroys their premises.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1987 12:19 PDT
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: Case of Conscience/Blish

I first read "A Case of Conscience" as cover story in Amazing or
Analog or some the egg and leaving(as described by DandoM@UMass,
Clark@p.cs.uiuc.edu, et al).  There is also a full length story
which finishes this story up.

BUT - Blish considered "A Case of Conscience" one member of a set of
"religious" novels.

One of these is "Faust Aleph Null". It is a short novel, set in the
future when the angelic forces of good of evil are starting the
final battle. It was published by Penguin in the UK and probably
elsewhere.  This book is somewhere between Science and Fantasy but
is certainly Speculative.

The third member of the set is "Doctor Mirabilis" which is a
historical novel about Roger Bacon and set in 1231 thru 1294 AD.  My
copy is a paperback by Panther UK 1976. Faber and Faber 1964 MAY
have published the Hardback?  This last may be Historical Fiction
but I recommend it highly to SF Lovers.

There is no overlap between the characters in the three books and no
visible links in plot or universe - they share a common theme of the
interaction between the Roman Catholicism and Science.

Dick Botting
Comp Sci
Cal State, San Bernardino, CA 92407
PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.CALSTATE
PAAAAAR@CALSTATE.BITNET
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 07:51:37 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Case of Conscience/Blish

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>BUT - Blish considered "A Case of Conscience" one member of a set
>of "religious" novels.
>
>One of these is "Faust Aleph Null".

   The original title is "Black Easter". It has a companion novel
titled "Day After Judgement", the two together are the second volume
in the "After Such Knowledge" trilogy.

Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 09:33:17 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Orson Scott Card

From:   buddy.Berkeley.EDU!c60b-ej      (Mary Kuhner)
> Can anyone elucidate the publication history of _The Worthing
> Chronicles_ and its related books?  I know I've seen bits of that
> storyline here and there, but don't have the resources to track
> them down.

Back in 1979, Card came out with two books that comprised "The
Worthing Chronicles": CAPITOL and HOT SLEEP. The latter was an
original novel and the former a collection of five stories that were
previously published in ANALOG, OMNI, and DESTINIES. In 1983, Card
reshuffled, compacted, and rewrote the series into one volume called
THE WORTHING CHRONICLE.

>    Are there legal guidelines, pitfalls, etc. in publishing a book
> containing substantial material from your previous books?

It depends on your contracts. It tends not to be a problem at all
when, as in the case of Card's W.C. books, the publisher (in this
case, Ace Books) is the same for both versions.

The only real pitfall is pissing off your fans who don't like buying
the same story over again.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 19:40:47 GMT
From: uunet!apctrc!zmel0a@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark E. Lawrence)
Subject: Delany Question

This is like the question somebody asked about Heinlein's
_Number_of_the_beast_ I've recently read Delany's _Neveryona_ and
have had a friend do the same.  Neither one of us is having much
luck understanding the plot.  It all seems so disjointed.  The book
is enjoyable, nevertheless, because of the reality of the place that
Sam manages to conjure up.  I could *smell* the dusty, dirty streets
of the city where Prynn met Gorgik.  I could picture vividly the
road going south and the inn where she worked.

However, could somebody tell me how the 'prophecy' (told by the
storyteller) at the beginning related to the end and what 'the
meaning of it all' was?  Much obliged, y'all.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 87 17:46:48 EDT
Subject: E. R. Eddison
From: markl@allspice.LCS.MIT.EDU

Has anyone out there read E. R. Eddison's Zimiamvia books (Mistress
of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, The Mezentian Gate) from
start to finish?  I was given the set years ago, and since then have
tried on no less than five occasions to finish it.  I have never
succeeded.  I have found Eddison's writing beautiful, but very, very
difficult.  Any comments?  Also, what is the correct order in which
to read them?  I had assumed they should be read as they are ordered
by their covers: MoM, FDiM, MG, but someone once told me that was
not true.

Mark L. Lambert
MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
Distributed Systems Group
Internet: markl@ptt.lcs.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 20:24:48 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: E. R. Eddison

From: markl@allspice.LCS.MIT.EDU
>Has anyone out there read E. R. Eddison's Zimiamvia books (Mistress
>of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, The Mezentian Gate) from
>start to finish?  I was given the set years ago, and since then
>have tried on no less than five occasions to finish it.  I have
>never succeeded.  I have found Eddison's writing beautiful, but
>very, very difficult.  Any comments?  Also, what is the correct
>order in which to read them?  I had assumed they should be read as
>they are ordered by their covers: MoM, FDiM, MG, but someone once
>told me that was not true.

Yes, Eddison is simply wonderful.  His prose is difficult, but it
rewards careful reading.  I see no reason not to read Zimiamvia in
the standard (non-chronological) order.  Readers of C.S.Lewis may
recall that the standard order of the Chronicles of Narnia
corresponds neither to order of composition nor to internal
chronology. The Mezentian Gate, by the way, is only a sketch, so you
probably shouldn't read it first in any case.  For the record, A
Fish Dinner is the earliest and Mistress of Mistresses the latest of
the books.

You may find Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros less difficult than the
Zimiamvian books; in any case it is worth reading.  It is very
loosely connected to the trilogy.  Eddison also wrote a
difficult-to-obtain translation of a Norse Tale with a title like
Styrbiorn the Strong.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 22:32:38 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: E. R. Eddison

markl@allspice.LCS.MIT.EDU:
>Has anyone out there read E. R. Eddison's Zimiamvia books (Mistress
>of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, The Mezentian Gate) from
>start to finish?

Yes.  Read them.  Take your time and don't worry too much about the
order.  You'll enjoy them best if you approach them as you would a
tour through a lovely landscape: don't wait for things to *happen*.

The books are [very] loosely linked to "The Worm Ouroboros", which I
consider one of the most enjoyable fantasies ever written -- if you
don't demand that it be a modern fantasy novel.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 15:55:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: E. R. Eddison

Regarding Eddison's Zimiamvian trilogy:

I have it but have not got around to reading it yet.  I started the
first one once (late high school or early undergrad) but got bogged
down.  C.S. Lewis once commented that he much disliked the world of
the trilogy, though he loved Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros.

I once read a discussion of the trilogy in a Fantastic magazine by
Fritz Leiber (mid-70's, I can't place it better than that).  In it
he said that the action of each book is nested within the previous
one, like the Chinese nested carved spheres.  He spelled out the
order in which to read the portions of all three if you wanted to go
through everything chronologically, but of course I can't remember
it now.  I think that to read them in the normally stated order
would be best without that knowledge.

I presume you went to those books because of The Worm.  If you
haven't read that book, by all means do.  It is one of the classics
of the genre, with beautiful prose, well-realized characters, and
action on the epic plane of the Illiad.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 20:04:44 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (David W. Berry)
Subject: Re: Dune Guild (was Re: ST-TNG)

agranok@udenva.UUCP (Alexander Granok) writes:
>mbrown@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Brown) writes:
>>Only in the movie.  My impression from the book was that the Guild
>>ships somehow travelled at a very high rate of speed (probably
>>FTL) and the Guild navigators were prescient and used this ability
>>to choose their course
>
>I always got the idea that the navigators somehow used an extreme
>use of psi powers to actually "think" the ship to where it was
>supposed to go.  Sort of like teleportation.  The spice gives you
>the "ability" to travel to places that are far away in time and
>space, so this idea kind of makes sense.

From the movie, this is a reasonable assumption.  If, however, you
read the books, which bear little relationship to the movie, but
that's another problem, you'll find that spice gives you the ability
to mentally traverse various alternate paths to the future.  Thus
the Guild navigators, traverse several alternate routes and
determine which will be the safest.  In our hero, Paul, this ability
is greatly exagerated and there are a number of sequences where his
trips are described.

BTW, Dune was a fair movie, but "any coincidence with any book,
living or dead, is purely coincidental, only the names have been
kept to condemn the innocent."  I would suggest reading the first 3,
or maybe 4, of the books, since they are quite good.  _God, Emperor
Dune_ was real spacy and they go down hill from there though.

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #461
Date: 21 Oct 87 0813-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #461
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 87 0813-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #461
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 461

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 23:08:01 GMT
From: uunet!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

   Lisa Wahl noted that Picard had a "British" accent.  Actually,
French people who learn English generally learn it from the BBC.
It's not surprising to have a British accented English in Europe.
But his accent isn't British.  It's sort of upperclass North
American.  If you hear British accents, they're much more
interesting.  Prince Charles, the Beatles, Cockney -- much more
interesting.

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto
(416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 87 13:17 EST
From: Daniel Barron <BARRON@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Star Trek: The Next Generation

>    The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
>the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who

Of course, the cast may contain characters which may ruin the
plot...  The script may contain lines which may ruin the plot...

And then of course, the script may be so bad that ruining it is an
impossibility Now, I like Star Trek, but I'm no Trekkie.  I never
watched it a lot, but when I did I generally enjoyed it.  It was a
good (Trekkies read *great*) show.

I expected STTNG to be bad, but Fox went beyong my wildest
imagination.  I saw the second episode, about the virus that
destroys everyone's judgement (sound familiar??)  It was *bad*
Another example of how Fox will go to great lengths to blatently use
sex to get viewers.  Now all the networks do this, but Fox, being
new, is the worst about it.

Never mind the scientific impossibilities of the show (some very
good SF is full of them) a discussion of them could clog the net for
years.  It's just that STTNG's improbable occurences could easily
have been avoided. Example:

The chunk of this exploding star breaks off and is hurdled out into
space.  The Enterprise, from the looks of things (the star, etc) had
to be quite some distance from the star.  The area of a sphere of
that radius would be huge and the star supposedly blows off matters
in a random direction.  But *of course* this chunk of matter heads
right for the Enterprise and only takes 15 minutes to get there to
boot.  If they were that close to the star it would be a)
uncomfortably hot and b) the star would be larger and c) there would
be untold radiation problems...why didn't they make a simple script
change.  Make the star blow off an entire LAYER of matter, claim
it's to hot or poisonous or something, thus still providing the
motivation to evacuate the area...

I said I wasn't going to pick nits, but this one seemed obvious and
easy enough to get around.  Overall the script was poor (sex-aliens
in space had a better plot) and the acting weak.  And why is Mr.
Clean the captain of the ship?  And the blind guy...at the
controls??? Okay, I'll believe they're in Braille but that thing he
wears over his eyes looks like one of those barettes women are so
fond of these days to pull their hair back.

This show is just one more example of the poor quality of American
television in general and of SF TV in this country in particular.
It's no better than Buck Rodgers (remember Gil Gerard? --Yuk!!)

Daniel Barron
barron@wharton.upenn.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 87 16:05:33 CDT
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Re:  Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

Re Saucer separation, to Bill Stapleton:
I'm glad you pointed out that business about the saucer not having
"star drive" (I believe I recall that term being used specifically
when the voice-over described the separation); if the saucer had no
warp drives one would expect it to immediately drop back into
sub-light speed after separation, perhaps when it got some certain
distance away from the "field" of the warp engines or whatever
explanation would be devised to explain why the rear section didn't
smash into the saucer as it slowed down while the rear portion
maintained its speed.

In any case, it would take it thousands of years to rendezvous with
the rest of the ship at Farpoint, poking along on impulse power.
Where would its power source or fuel be for this voyage, anyway? (I
have visions of the crew families burning the lounge furniture in
the matter-conversion furnace to keep up steam for the long voyage
to reunification, as they age, die, and generation succeeds
generation... :-)

If the ST:TNG writers will claim that it had some sort of warp
drives in it, to get around that, then there isn't much excuse for
having those big engine pods and the rest of the ship's structure;
the armament and suchlike that they said was in that portion could
be in a much smaller section hung off or built in the saucer.

All in all, I think somebody got hung up over the special-effects
possibility of showing the ship separate into parts and reunite
later, and ignored the practical aspects of just how this would
work. Sloppy writing... On the whole, this looks to be no better
than the poorer episodes of the original ST. I didn't even bother
watching episode #2.

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 01:21:48 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@RUTGERS.EDU (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

nmm@ers.UUCP (Neil McCulloch) writes:
(in response to Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM)
>> I wish she had a Scottish accent, too.  I love accents and the
>> bits of
> Scotty's accent was certainly not Scottish. It might pass as a
> parody of one, a poor parody.

Woah, hold it.  As a bagpipe player who is a fixture at most West
Coast competitions, where quite a few other bagpipe players from all
over the world also hang out, Scotty's accent is not that far off
from most of the accents I have heard coming from both Scotland and
Ireland.  The majority of the effect is achieved through the
language itself..."wee bairns", etc, which may not be consistently
used today, but was at some point unique to Scottish society.  James
Doohan himself called the accent his "Scottish accent" in a Starlog
interview from several years back.  As far as being a "poor parody",
I have heard much worse.  Scotty's accent is much closer than you
think, and considerably more understandable than the real thing.
(Some of these guys you really can't tell what they're saying...)

Murdock

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 13:50:49 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Filming Conditions of ST:TNG

At ConClave this weekend in Detroit, we got at least one interesting
piece of info about the ST:TNG pilot.  (This came from Diane Carey,
author of two, soon to be three, Star Trek novels.)

Apparently, the actors were all told to shut up and do what they
were told for the pilot...no questions, no suggestions, no freedom
to come up with additional "stage business".  It's easy to figure
out the repercussions.  One can expect the actors to be "pros" and
do their best anyway; but the characters are not really their own,
and are probably going to feel less accessible.  Also, the show will
be missing the chance to benefit from the input of intelligent
people who are very concerned about getting the characters right.
Sure, the final decisions should be made by director (in
consultation with writer and producer), but allowing no input at all
from the actors is a mistake.

Some comments attributed to the actors at the time (possibly
spurious, possibly not):

   Ryker wonders how the first officer could just watch as the old
   guy at Farpoint was beamed away.  "Kirk would have been diving
   across the desk, grabbing hold of him, at least making an
   effort."

   From the actress playing Counselor Troi: "Why does she say
   everything twice?"

One would assume that the second episode was filmed in a more
lenient (i.e. normal) way, and I think it benefited in a dozen
subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 15:34:32 GMT
From: mlandau@bbn.com (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation

BARRON@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>I expected STTNG to be bad, but Fox went beyong my wildest
>imagination.  I saw the second episode, about the virus that
>destroys everyone's judgement (sound familiar??)  It was *bad*
>Another example of how Fox will go to great lengths to blatently
>use sex to get viewers.  Now all the networks do this, but Fox,
>being new, is the worst about it.

Just to set the record straight, Fox Broadcasting has nothing to do
with the content of the show -- they merely purchase the rights to
air it from the studio.  Blame for the content, or lack thereof,
rests squarely on the shoulders of Gene Roddenberry, Paramount, and
the others invovled in the actual production of the show.

On the other hand, I've also been disappointed so far, especially
when the first 20 minutes pilot contained all the flaky GR'isms I'd
been hoping wouldn't show up at all.  The show has promise, and
could evolve into something abut as good as the original (though
after 20 years maybe we're entitled to have higher expectations than
that?).  But I fear that at its worst, this could degenrate into
another Lost In Space.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 16:53:19 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>     Lisa Wahl noted that Picard had a "British" accent.  Actually,
>French people who learn English generally learn it from the BBC.
>It's not surprising to have a British accented English in Europe.
>But his accent isn't British.  It's sort of upperclass North
>American.

Which makes me wonder why everyone assumes he's French.  Does it say
Captain Picard is French in the Writer's Guide?  My first thought
was that he was Canadian, and I'm surprised that Jim Omura (from
Toronto) didn't suggest that.

Jay Smith
uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 12:31:09 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
>nmm@ers.UUCP (Neil McCulloch) writes:
>(in response to Wahl.ES@Xerox.COM)
>> Scotty's accent was certainly not Scottish. It might pass as a
>> parody of one, a poor parody.
[stuff deleted]
>As far as being a "poor parody", I have heard much worse.  Scotty's
>accent is much closer than you think, and considerably more
>understandable than the real thing.  (Some of these guys you really
>can't tell what they're saying...)

When my wife and I were on our honeymoon in London, England, we took
a Brit-Rail from London to Gatewick for our return flight home, the
conductor on the train had a Scottish accent so thick we could
hardly understand him.  He didn't use 'wee bairns', but what he did
say was very like the accent used by Doohan. I would say that
Doohan's Scottish accent is very good.  Of course it wouldn't stand
up to a real Highlander's, but for us 'mericans, it's pretty good.

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 23:10:00 GMT
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation

mlandau@bbn.com (Matt Landau) writes:
>BARRON@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>>to blatently use sex to get viewers.  Now all the networks do
>>this, but Fox, being new, is the worst about it.
>
>Just to set the record straight, Fox Broadcasting has nothing to do
>with the content of the show -- they merely purchase the rights to
>air it from

To really set the record straight, Fox has nothing at all to do with
the show whatsoever.  It's syndicated.  True, many stations that are
Fox affiliates are running the show.  But that's just a coincidence
(well, there's probably some connection between the factors that
make a station sign up with Fox and the ones that make it pick up
ST:TNG).

If you're going to make wild surmises about the way the show is
being produced, at least try to get your facts right.

Robert

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 00:10:29 GMT
From: dwald@yale-zoo-suned..arpa (David Wald)
Subject: Re: Data & Asimov's Laws of Robotics

MIQ@PSUVMA.BITNET (Jim Maloy) writes:
>ray@spca6.UUCP (ray) says:
>
>>   2) Question -- Has Data been programmed with Asimov's Three Laws
>>      of Robotics?
>
>     I pondered this myself, especially after seeing him swing into
>action when Wesley fell into the pond ("Encounter").  It seems
>likely that he at least has the equivalent of the First Law.
>
>     (For any non-Asimov readers, the First Law states that a robot
>cannot harm a human being, or through inaction, allow a human being
>to come to harm.

    At least one of Asimov's characters noted that you can't always
tell if a being is a robot by it's behavior, since anything that
obeys the three laws might be a robot, or simply an exceptionally
good human being.  For Data to behave as if he had the Three Laws
programmed in might indicate the presence of the Three Laws in some
hardwired form, or it might indicate some fuzzier good-human-like
features which usually manifest as preventing humans from coming to
harm.

>    In Starfleet, I assume this would be expanded to "intelligent
>life-form.")

    Actually, there's a problem with this, in that a Starfleet
officer might be called upon to kill in some circumstances.
Therefore, if he had the first law it would have to be a *very*
advanced version of it (something that's rare, but not unheard of).

David Wald
dwald@yale.UUCP
waldave@yalevmx.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 87 21:44:47 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Writers , also silliness in STTNG

Which of the episodes are the Diane Duane ones? Is John M. Ford
doing Lonely Among Us (a Worf story)??

Also, on the subject of TNN, doesn't it seem like the saucer
separation would have been a lot more useful here? Or was it cut off
when the command computer went down? Good grief!!! Let's just run
the phasers through the main warp engines again!!

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 20:07:29 GMT
From: sputnik!kmr@RUTGERS.EDU (Karl MacRae)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
> James Doohan himself called the accent his "Scottish accent" in a
>Starlog interview from several years back.  As far as being a "poor
>parody", I have heard much worse.  Scotty's accent is much closer
>than you think, and considerably more understandable than the real
>thing.  (Some of these guys you really can't tell what they're
>saying...)

   Doohan's Scottish accent is so poor because, not only is he not
Scottish, he's IRISH CANIDIAN! I saw him at a Star Trek Convention
several years back, and someone asked him "What part of Scotland
are you from? His response, "I'm not Scottish at all; I'm Irish
Canadian" had the audience howling...

Karl MacRae
UUCP: kmr!sun
ARPA: kmr@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 03:50:19 GMT
From: Les_B_Kooyman@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Bryce/Wesley

Am I the only one who sees the similarities between Bryce and Bill
Gates?  Bryce even *looks* like Bill Gates. Too bad ABC cancelled
the show... but they had cut the heart out of it this season, after
all.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #462
Date: 21 Oct 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #462
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 87 0829-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #462
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 462

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Fantasy (2 msgs) &
                                 World Building (2 msgs) &
                                 FTL & What is SF (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 12:52:49 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

cheeser@dasys1.UUCP (Les Kay) writes:
>Brooks is in fact, responsible for the resurgence of fantasy as a
>whole.  His Shannara books were the first fantasy books to go best
>seller in TRADE editions ever - this is the rule of thumb measure
>used by publishers to determine if a genre is popular - do any of
>the books go best in trade.

I would rather phrase that as "Brooks (and Judy Lynn Del Rey) are,
in fact, partly responsible for trivializing and commercializing the
fields of fantasy and science fiction, resulting in endless rivers
of books which all look and read much the same, and which make it
extremely difficult for any author who writes anything truly new to
get published."

The "resurgence" of fantasy isn't a resurgence - it's a mass market
where no mass market existed before.  It resulted from any number of
factors, some of the most important being the heightened awareness
of fantasy resulting from televison, movies, and chain-store
booksellers.  It's distinguishing characteristic is an extreme
reliance on old and tired themes and settings, which is the result
of the change in the perceived role of the publisher; where the
quality of the book is no longer the major factor in deciding to
publish, but, rather, the marketability of the book is.  The result
has been much the same as the result when television became a major
money maker - the product (tv show or book) has degraded, as the
search for the lowest common denominator goes on - after all, if you
were out for the maximum profit, which would you choose: a book of
high quality, which may well be too "difficult" for half of your
market, or a piece of entertaining fluff that will offend only those
who care about quality, and sell to the rest?  Sad to say, the
profit motive has overrun SF publishing, and it's a damn shame.

You want proof?  Look at Bill Gibson, Kim Stanley Robinson, Lucius
Shepard, and the rest of the newest New Wave of SF authors, and then
look at how long it took them to get books published.  Sure, NOW
everyone says things like "The best and brightest in the field", but
it took Terry Carr and the very untypical Ace Specials for them to
get their foot in the door.  In the meantime, what was selling?
Why, Piers Anthony and Jack Chalker, of course!  Pfeh.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Oct 87 19:50:10 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Fantasy Mass Market  (Was Re: Anthony & Chalker)

>>Brooks is in fact, responsible for the resurgence of fantasy as a
>>whole.

Not really.

>>His Shannara books were the first fantasy books to go best seller
>>in TRADE editions ever

This is true, but that doesn't really prove anything, other than
Shannara sold well to folks who normally don't read genre books.

>>- this is the rule of thumb measure used by publishers to
>>determine if a genre is popular - do any of the books go best in
>>trade.

This is an amazing oversimplification.

>I would rather phrase that as "Brooks (and Judy Lynn Del Rey) are,
>in fact, partly responsible for trivializing and commercializing
>the fields of fantasy and science fiction, resulting in endless
>rivers of books which all look and read much the same, and which
>make it extremely difficult for any author who writes anything
>truly new to get published."

Oh, them's fighting words. Judy-Lynn Del Rey turned out the
consistently best product in the field during her tenure as
Ballantine/Del Rey editor.  She also had a very strong business
acumen -- she knew which books would also cross over and sell to the
folks who normally won't touch a genre book.  I won't even try to
justifiy Shannara for quality, but it is an accessible and readable
book that makes a perfect crossover to mainstream if it is marketed
right -- and JL definitely marketed it right.

Another of her major crossover successes is "Mists of Avalon" by MZ
Bradley.  Definitely not an easy read, definitely a much higher
quality than Shannara, but it still crossed over well because it
reached a different market.

This is not to say that SF and Fantasy have not (to some degree)
been over-published and trivialized, but don't blame it on Del Rey.
Blame it on all the folks who tried to duplicate her successes
without understanding what she was doing -- the second-level
publishers, the knock offs, the clones -- the folks who could
duplicate the mechanics of Del Rey's success but didn't require the
quality or standards that she did.

As a side point, however, if it weren't for the expansion (and
over-expansion) many of the best Fantasy writers might have had
major problems getting published at all -- without the market, we
might not have seen Feist, or Smeds (who's currently out of print,
unfortunately) or Clare Bell (who's stuff is due out in PB from
Dell) or Katherine Kerr (her second book is now out!) or Pat Murphy
(Falling Woman is now a Tor paperback). If there is a limited
market, the good authors without the name, the first authors, all
the folks that are worth taking a chance on, they don't get
published. With some thought (and perhaps some help from a
publication like OtherRealms) you can avoid most of the really
average to poor stuff and take advantage of the good stuff the
expansion makes available -- stuff that otherwise wouldn't be there.

>It's distinguishing characteristic is an extreme reliance on old
>and tired themes and settings, which is the result of the change in
>the perceived role of the publisher;

This is flat wrong. I don't know what you're reading, but the stuff
I'm reading has a LOT of fresh material, solid writing and original
ideas. The Falling Woman by Murphy proves this statement wrong
completely and forever in a single book.

Now, if you have decided that the only Fantasy is the generic Celtic
retread, I might agree with you to a point, but Fantasy has moved
far beyond those bounds -- you just may not have noticed.

>You want proof?  Look at Bill Gibson, Kim Stanley Robinson, Lucius
>Shepard, and the rest of the newest New Wave of SF authors, and
>then look at how long it took them to get books published.

Um, Gibson's first novel sold. It was called Neuromancer. Before
that he wasn't writing novels, he was writing for anthologies and
magazines.  Robinson and Shepard also write shorter works aimed at
anthologies and magazines.  The primary reason all three didn't
publish books sooner is that none of them were writing novels.
Publishers don't generally publish collections unless there are
novels also in print for a good reason -- they don't sell ( a recent
exception to this rule was Karen Jow Fowler's Artificial Things,
but then Karen's won the Campbell award, among other things).

>Sure, NOW everyone says things like "The best and brightest in the
>field", but it took Terry Carr and the very untypical Ace Specials
>for them to get their foot in the door.

Not everyone. I hate to say it, but Cyberpunk hasn't shown any long
term viability for sales in the field. Talk to me in five years.
(Although I'll admit that Gibson, Robinson and Shepard will all be
selling as long as they keep writing good stuff, it is because they
are all very good writers -- not because they write cyperpunk.
There's lots of other folks writing lots of bad CP that may well
kill the fad off....)

>In the meantime, what was selling?  Why, Piers Anthony and Jack
>Chalker, of course!  Pfeh.

Someone's buying it. It may not be your cup of tea, but someone
likes it.

And you can't assume that if Chalker didn't exist, they'd just
publish more of the stuff YOU like. It ain't true. The 'hack'
authors like Anthony and Chalker (hack is not MY word for them --
Jack'd kill me if he heard me say that....) don't keep others out of
the market. In fact, an argument can be made that heavy sellers such
as Anthony make it easier for other authors to get published --
there is more money in the genre, for one thing, a larger audience,
and in the case of at least one publishing house, they use some
profits from their major sellers to subsidize books they know will
lose money but that they feel still deserve to be published.

Publishing is an unbelievably complicated business. It doesn't serve
anything except flames to over-simplify it.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 11:50:12 EDT
From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: World Building

In a recent conversation with a friend the subject of World Building
came up.  This is a subject that seems to be the most fascinating
part of the writing process (at least to me :-) ).

I was hoping that someone out there had any interesting stories,
experiences, opinions, et al, about World Building.

Favorite world?  Reasons?  Preferences?

Bruce Onder
wcutecb%iup@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 20:53:01 GMT
From: B1E%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: World Building

WCUTECB@IUP.BITNET says:
>In a recent conversation with a friend the subject of World
>Building came up.  This is a subject that seems to be the most
>fascinating part of the writing process (at least to me :-) ).
>
>I was hoping that someone out there had any interesting stories,
>experiences, opinions, et al, about World Building.
>
>Favorite world?  Reasons?  Preferences?

One of the most fascinating human civilizations I have encountered
was in a book called _Courtship_Rite_ (the author's name slips my
mind right now).  It used the classic theme of a human colony
disconnected from the rest of civilization.  On this particular
planet, all forms of life were poisonous to humans so that
everything had to be grown from scratch.  Each particular clan
stressed a different virtue and anyone who was deficient in that
characteristic (strength, leadership ability, etc.) was killed and
eaten in times of famine, which occurred quite frequently.  Thus,
each tribe employed a sort of artificial selection and produced its
own subspecies.  Very interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 16:10:34 -0400
From: new@UDEL.EDU
Subject: Re: FTL travel

In issue 449, Dennis Mumaugh writes:
>The most ingenious FTL travel was described in the Capt.  Grimes
>adventures by A.  Bertram Chandler: The ship travels at the speed
>of light and at the same time is sent back into time.  Thus while
>it takes a longtime to go anywhere it also takes no time at all.
>Also it seems that the characters don't age during this process.

One minor problem - It's kind of tough to travel at the speed of
light unless you are light. But you could get quite close...  One
major problem - If you could separate the "time" out of space-time
in order to go "back in time", then relativity wouldn't be a problem
in the first place.  What happens if your departure point is running
in a different temporal frame of reference than your arrival point;
e.g., your space station is in orbit around a black hole? Whose time
will you go back into? And when you get to your destination, how do
you know that you got there at anywhere near the same time you left?
A message from home, that also takes X years to arrive?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1987 18:23 PDT
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: What is SF?

>From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM
>> Let's hear how some other people define SF, and (really the same
>> question) how they differientate it from other genera (fantasy,
>> horror, thriller, etc.).
>
>   OK. Here is my three cents worth.  It seems to me that when you
>talk about S.F. the main word in the title is "SCIENCE".  My
>definition of S.F. is a story that depicts a world where the level
>of technological acheivement is higher than is currently found on
>Earth.  Fantasy, on the other hand, deals with worlds that have not
>acheived our current level of technological sophistication, with
>the added proviso that they must also contain something that
>clearly identifies them as not historical (i.e. the presence of
>Magic or the fact that the story takes place on some world that
>isn't Earth).
>
>...Now all we have to do is define technological achievement.

    If you define SF entirely in terms of technology, you're
completely missing the point.  When I was in college, I had to write
a paper defining exactly what Science Fiction was, and how it was
distinguished from Fantasy and Horror.  The conclusion that I came
to was that the overall genre of speculative fiction can be
subdivided into SF, horror, and fantasy, and that these three
sub-categories are definitely not discrete.  In fact, they overlap
like three bubbles in a Venn diagram.  It is quite possible for a
given work to fall into one, two, or all three categories.

    Now, the key to categorizing a given work of speculative fiction
is figuring out what kind of speculation forms the foundation for
the plot.  With fantasy, the speculation almost always involves
magic.  In horror stories, the speculation is more macabre in
nature, and is developed with the specific intention of scaring the
reader.

    With SF, the speculation is (more or less) scientific in nature.
For me, a real SF story is one where the author creates a world that
is somehow rooted in present-day reality, introduces one or more
"scientific" advances, and then weaves them into the pattern of
human development and interaction that is essential in any story.

    If that last sentence seemed a little bit dense, let me give an
example.  I don't think "Star Wars" qualifies as SF for several
reasons.  Although there is lots of neat technology, the actual
story is basic good vs. evil.  You can strip away all the hi-tech
stuff, and the plot stands intact.  The backbone of the story
concerns Luke Skywalker's coming of age via the Force, resolving the
conflict with his father, and defeating the Empire.  The only
"extraordinary" element that is essential to the plot is the Force,
and since the Force meets almost any definition of "magic" that
you'd care to apply, one must conclude that "Star Wars" is a work of
fantasy, not SF.

QED.

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Oct 87 23:07:29-CDT
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction

From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM
>> Let's hear how some other people define SF...
>   OK. Here is my three cents worth.  It seems to me that when you
>talk about S.F. the main word in the title is "SCIENCE".  My
>definition of S.F. is a story that depicts a world where the level
>of technological acheivement is higher than is currently found on
>Earth.  Fantasy, on the other hand, deals with worlds that have not
>acheived our current level of technological sophistication...

Nothing personal against MEP here; this view is said quite often,
and always baffles me: SCIENCE does not imply FUTURE!  Perfectly
good science has been done in the past or the present.  There are
tons of books that we would probably all agree are Science Fiction
that take place in the present, especially.  (Alien
invasions/contact, time travel, etc.)  Similarly, many books take
place in a more advanced future but really qualify as fantasy (or
are at least debatable) such as Book of the New Sun.

My 2 cents worth (I guess it's not worth as much as MEP's! :-) is
that science fiction has a more "rigorous" real-world attitude, i.e.
a sf book should be viewed as "possible" in our real world, whereas
fantasy need not be.  Both should contain qualities that take them
out of the realm of the mundane, but who can really define exactly
what those qualities are ("sense of wonder", etc.)

Russ

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #463
Date: 21 Oct 87 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #463
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 87 0851-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #463
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 463

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Zelazny (11 msgs) & 
                            New Authors & 
                            DandD in Books (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 02:32:43 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Amber books...

WLMILLIOS@GALLUA.BITNET writes:
>Speaking of the Pattern; has Zelazny ever printed a layout of the
>thing?  One thing I did not really understand was that if the
>Pattern was so difficult, why did it have to be so big?  Seems like
>the "corridors" must have been very wide in order to take up that
>much room...

   A footnote here; in the first book Roger describes the Pattern as
being something like 300 by 150 to 200 *yards*.  At one of the
conventions I've seen him at, I asked him about this, since, given
from one of the later books, you can fence from two adjacent loops,
a spiral with those dimensions would be something like several
*miles* long.  He responded with an answer in relation to the room
we where in, making it clear that he had meant *feet*, not yards.
Oh well...
   As for "why" it is so big, I guess that that is as small as you
can walk it given the design you have to transcribe from inside the
jewel.

>Second, why didn't the beast that was guarding the Primal Pattern
>attack Corwin, if it had been set there, and instructed, by Oberon?
>Bill Millios

   It was set there specifically to defend the pattern from Dworkin
during his spells of madness.  Corwin was safe to allow close to it.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 03:59:06 GMT
From: yamauchi@SPEECH2.CS.CMU.EDU (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Re: Choas, ty'iga, Time Travel, spoilers

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>      Seems like one thing which would be useful would be to find a
> world going really fast (maybe a 1000 to 1?) and marry a hundred
> women, and try to raise a brood of kids.  Teach them to work
> together and to help each other.  It might be a bit tricky getting
> them to the pattern, but a number of other people have made it
> without the whole world knowing.  Maybe only take those children
> which are "good kids", who get along, study hard, help each other
> and so on.

The problem is that you're not thinking like an Amberite.  A more
likely course of action would be:

1) Find a shadow going really fast.
2) Marry (or not) a hundred women.
3) Raise a brood of kids.
4) Teach them strategy, tactics, and combat skills.
5) Evaluate the loyalty of your children and take the ones whom you
   trust to walk the Pattern.
6) Design and develop some really nasty high-tech weapons that work
   in Amber.
7) Start your own religion and enlist the converts as cannon fodder.
8) Launch an assault on Amber to seize the throne.

On second thought, maybe not: one of your trusted children would
probably stab *you* in the back.....

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 21:48:54 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Amber, "Sign of Chaos", spoilers, more questions

rjp1@ihlpa.ATT.COM (RJ Pietkivitch) writes:
>Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>>      The following has spoilers for those who haven't read
>> "Sign of Chaos".
>> And why does Julia now want to kill Merle?
>You know, perhaps Julia is being forced against her will?

*Is* Julia trying to kill Merlin?  Certainly she is trying to
*defeat* him; but it is not at all clear that his death is her
object.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 30 Sep 87 18:24:15 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Zelazny's Amber books - some questions.

AERTS@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
> And here's a question about The Hand of Oberon: ... Obviously,
>time moves faster in Amber than in the Courts. ... obviously time
>moves faster in the Courts than it does in Amber. That's right, it
>doesn't make sense.  Or does it?

I brought this up in a discussion of Amber on the net last year.
The best conclusion we could come to is that time in Amber and in
the Courts doesn't have any fixed relationship -- sometimes one is
faster, sometimes the other.  This is not too unreasonable -- they
are the Courts of *Chaos*, after all.

I think this is an explanation after the fact, and Zelazny really
goofed here, but it doesn't work too badly, anyhow.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 17:53:37 GMT
From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Choas, ty'iga, Time Travel, spoilers

Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM writes:
>      Seems like one thing which would be useful would be to find a
> world going really fast (maybe a 1000 to 1?) and marry a hundred
> women, and try to raise a brood of kids.  Teach them to work
> together and to help each other.  It might be a bit tricky getting
> them to the pattern, but a number of other people have made it
> without the whole world knowing.  Maybe only take those children
> which are "good kids", who get along, study hard, help each other
> and so on.

The problem with this is that the shadows with high time
differentials with respect to Amber also tend to be far from Amber
and close to Chaos.  For an Amberite, spending large amounts of time
there would probably be mentally unsettling.

This is not a hard-and-fast rule; in fact Oberon uses one of his
powers to alter the time differential of Lorraine to give him lots
of time there.  But some passages I recall from the original books
indicate that there is some correlation.

I think this plan might be impractical even if the environment were
no problem.  If one believes the old saw that "power corrupts, and
absolute power corrupts absolutely," then conflict among this great
brood would be inevitable.  After all, members of Oberon's house
have great power.  All of the characters in the first series (with
the exception of Gerard and Benedict) are out for more power.  Most
of them came to grips with that tendency, but only after their
universe was nearly destroyed.  Once these wonderkids walked the
Pattern and had the power to fulfill almost every desire, I doubt
they would hang around and support Dear Old Dad anymore.

Lest someone argue that Corwin et al. were brought up by Oberon to
act like they did, note that the Courts of Chaos have the same
problem.  In _Sign of Chaos_, Mandor points out that the succession
intrigues in Chaos are as bad as those in Amber (perhaps worse,
since there seem to be more potential claimants).  Seems like most
people with power over Shadow are not satisfied with that; they have
to gain power in Reality as well.

Brian W. Ogilvie
ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
...{hao,uwvax}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 20:21:50 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Courts of Chaos, remember

As we approach the Courts of Chaos we find time moving faster, but,
chaos being chaotic, it shouldn't be expected that it moves
*consistently* faster.  Maybe sometimes it moves faster and
sometimes it moves slower.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 06:41:07 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moorcock, the Eternal Something

hin9@sphinx.UUCP (World Court Jester) writes:
>vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James) writes:
>>hin9@sphinx.UUCP (The Reverend w. No Name) writes:
>>>     And finally, keep in mind how many of Zelazny's works are
>>>pastiches, adaptations, sendups or tributes:

   [From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language,
New College Edition; 1980 by Houghton Mifflin Company]

   pastiche n. A dramatic, literary, or musical piece openly
               imitating the previous work of another artist, often
               with satirical intent.
   adaptation n. Anything that is changed or changes so as to
               become suitable to a new or special use or situation.
   Sendup is not listed but I'll offer "A comic treatment of an
               existing work or genre."
   tribute n. A gift, payment, declaration, or other acknowledgment
               of gratitude, respect or admiration.

Now that we have that established...

>>>     Lord of Light
>>       Details?
>     Buddhist and Hindu Mythology.

   Hmmm, it's not a pastiche (it doesn't imitate the prior work), it
is not a sendup (though I admit that my definition may be at fault,
though I don't think so,) it isn't a tribute, so far as I can see,
leaving only that it could be an adaptation.  Is that an indictment?
I don't think so, using distant or strange cultures as the basis for
fiction is a time honored tradition dating at least back to the
greeks.  And note that the culture was 'adapted' (literally!) from
within the context of the story.  The characters deliberately chose
to force that cultural framework onto the society that was
developing in order to exploit it.  Hence I don't take this as an
example of Zelazny's inability to write.

>>>     Creatures of Light and Darkness
>>       Real details?
>     Egyptian mythology.

   Here again, we have what could at best be an adaptation, in this
case a lot more so than in LoL.  The Egyptian motif seems to be
imposed onto the characters rather than adopted by them.  However,
we have several characters that do *not* come from Egyptian myth
(The Steel General, Madrak, Vramin, The Beast-that-cries-in-the-
night to name only major ones) and some of the characters that do
have names from Egyptian myth don't seem to be much like their
antecedents.  Thus it seems that a few elements thrown in for
curiosity's sake, but little of the substance.  I think this one
fails as well, but because it is only superficially Egyptian based.

>>>     Roadmarks (practically everything in this book)
>>       More real details?
>     Lots of in-jokes; Doc Savage appears, a lot of stuff that was
>discussed in detail about four months ago on this net.

   Actually, I'll give you this one.  While the book as a whole is
not a pastiche of any one work, scattered through it are several
(the Doc Savage, the sendup (really!) of the Kung-Fu fight, etc..)
As a matter of fact I'd say that this one kind of proves that the
others aren't, since when he does satirize something we can tell it.

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET
cn0001dj@ukcc.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 19:18:22 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Amber

People who take the Amber series *very* seriously should watch out
for people named Bernstein.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 04:57:31 GMT
From: dg-rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Re: Two points.

>2 books make a duology, 3 a trilogy, so I assume 4 and 5 would be
>something like "quadrilogy" (or possibly "quatrilogy") and
>"quintilogy".

The term I have always heard for a four-volume series is
"tetralogy", from the Greek, not the Latin. A five volume series is
a "pentology"; Anthony Powell's _A Dance to the Music of Time_ novel
is a duodecology.

>Is the Amber series really worth the investment in time and money
>to read all 10 volumes anyway? I doubt it.

Well, the first series is a brilliant, if somewhat less than
perfectly crafted, fantasy that deals with honor, love, passion,
magic, myth, sleeping, tarot, the fundamental nature of reality,
beauty, lilacs, and fast cars; it is also one of the most memorable
stories published in the genre, ranking with _The Book of the New
Sun_ and _The Stars My Destination_. _Lord of Light_ is better
written and has more to say about everything, but it is not quite as
gripping or original.

The second series, well, I'm waiting until it's done and the SFBC
does a two-volume edition of it.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 22:09:49 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (David W. Berry)
Subject: Re: Two points.

From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Chuq von Rospach makes reference to the "five books of the Amber
>trilogies [sic]".  Unfortunately, they're no such thing.  "Trilogy"
>means "set of three", so having five books make a trilogy is
>clearly impossible.  I'm not sure if an equivalent term for a five
>book set exists; the only thing that springs to mind is
>"quintology", from the Latin for five.

   I hope that Chuq was just being facetious.  Amber is yet another
example of a series, originally planned to be a trilogy, that grew
beyond bounds.  Other examples are:
   Amber, part the second
   Dune, (a seven book trilogy?)
and several others I fail to remember.  I took it as an reference to
the sometimes annoying attempts by authors to attempt to cash in on
a trilogy by making more books out of it.  Sometimes it works, and
sometimes you wind up with watered down drivel.

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp
dwb@apple.com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 19:21:07 GMT
From: nancym@pyrtech (Nancy McClelland)
Subject: Re: Amber books...

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>The first trilogy of Amber consists of:
>   Nine Princes in Amber
>   The Guns of Avalon
>   Sign of the Unicorn
>   The Hand of Oberon
>   The Courts of Chaos

>Three of the five books in the second trilogy are now out:
>   Trumps of Doom
>   Blood of Amber
>   Sign of Chaos

Help!  Now I'm confused.  I just picked up some of the Amber books,
in order to start reading the series.  (Amazingly, I had never
encountered it before reading the net).  Somehow, I thought Lord Of
Light was the first Amber book.  Does it fit into the series
anywhere?  I've just barely opened the book, but I seem to recall
it's about Amber.  Yes?  No?

Nancy McClelland
1295 Charleston Rd.
Mt. View, Ca. 94039
pyramid!nancym@pyrtech

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 15:03:18 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Name this novel

Thanks to all who answered with info on Systemic Shock, and Signs of
Chaos.

About new authors.  I read last spring a book called MORIGU: The
Desecration, by Mark Perry.  This is full of Tolkienesque
characters, but their portrayed great, especially the dwarves, like
when a young dwarf pukes on an elfen lord at a feast, there is a
hush of quiet, all the elves just sit still, then every dwarf hit
the floor rolling. OR the morning after, when the Elven Host
departs, silently on their magnificent mounts, dressed in splendor,
and the dwarves are falling off their horses, moaning because of
their massive hangovers.  The second book should be out soon,
anybody got opinions.

Another book is by L. Modesetti Jr. or something, I believe its
called Dawn for a Distant Earth, after the earth has virtually been
used up, and is ignored in the galactic scheme of things, some
research team, under the head of a reformed/civilized Terran savage
gets working on fixing the planet back up.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 02:18:12 GMT
From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (M.A. Murphy)
Subject: Re: D&D in Fantasy books.  Who uses it...

I read a book a few years ago by Susan Dexter called _The Ring of
Allaire_ that read just like a D&D campaign.  I could almost picture
someone rolling dice in some situations.  I remember the book being
mildly entertaining in spots, but not a real good read.

I can't think of anything else that's non-TSR that reminded me that
strongly of a D&D game/campaign.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 03:00:45 GMT
From: moss!mhuxa!bwr@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Reisman)
Subject: Re: D&D in Fantasy books.  Who uses it...

Try Andre Norton's "Quag Keep" or Marion Zimmer Bradley's "House
Between the Worlds" (I don't think this title is exactly right)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #464
Date: 21 Oct 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #464
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 87 0907-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #464
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 464

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 19:46:16 GMT
From: runyan@hpirs.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek: The New Reruns (spoilers)

>There's something that bothers me, and nobody else has mentioned
>it, so here goes: The saucer separated at warp 9+, and presumably
>continued merrily along at warp 9+, with no "star drive" - How
>would it stop or even slow down, let alone come back to meet them?

Likewise, this bothered me, so I "tried" to explain it...

<<DRIFT: NAIVE PHYSICS BACKGROUND ON>>
Long ago, someone mentioned it would take just as much energy to
slow down to the speed of light, from above as it would to speed up
to it from zero.  Now, according to one of the older shows (or
movies), impulse power can run up to .99... * the speed of light (or
thereabouts).  Now this should imply that once the saucer section
is at super-light speed, it will stay there, going as slow as
1.000...1 * c.  This means that the docking in orbit took place at
1.000...1 * c, right?  Now, aren't you more impressed by Number
One's docking procedure?

<<DRIFT: Way Off>>

Mark Runyan

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 16:00:30 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!ers!nmm@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil McCulloch)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
> Woah, hold it.  As a bagpipe player who is a fixture at most West
> Coast competitions, where quite a few other bagpipe players from
> all over the world also hang out, Scotty's accent is not that far
> off from most of the accents I have heard coming from both
> Scotland and Ireland.  The majority of the effect is achieved
> through the language itself..."wee bairns", etc, which may not be
> consistently used today, but was at some point unique to Scottish
> society.

Accent has nothing to do with the effect of the words being used. A
frenchman speaking English with a french accent is unmistakably
french. While it is true that there a certain words which are
unmistakably Scots, (last vestigesof that venerable language), they
do not contribute to the accent itself, except that they sometimes
employ sounds which are very Scottish. Examples are trachled, loch,
burn etc.

> James Doohan himself called the accent his "Scottish
> accent" in a Starlog interview from several years back.

As a Vancouverite, Doohan has to be careful in Canada when he talks
about his Scots accent and he has admitted on the CBC that it is not
so much a Scots accent as a Scots-like accent.

The accent is obviously meant to be Scots, but it is simply made up
of exaggerated elements of what is a Scots accent.

> As far as being a "poor parody", I have heard much worse.

That I'll grant you. The problem is that many people in North
America are not exposed to the sheer richness of accents available
in the British Isles and simply do not hear the full accent. For
example, your preferred name is "Murdock". You choose this form
because your peers do not hear the "ch" sound.  That's "ch as in
bricht, moonlicht nicht. Try turning those into "ck"s!

> Scotty's accent is much closer than you think, and considerably
> more understandable than the real thing.  (Some of these guys you
> really can't tell what they're saying...)

Now what people think of as the real thing is a full blown
Glaswegian accent.  And certainly Scotty is easier to understand
than that. But just because he rolls his r's and throws in a few och
aye's and employs a similar inflection, doesn't add up to more than
a parody. Frankly, Monty Python come closer in some of their
sketches.

For the real thing, watch the films Local Hero and Comfort and Joy,
also the accent employed by Tom Conti in Reuben Reuben, not to
mention Sean Connery, (yes that is a Scots accent).

I suppose you could say that Scots accents had changed in the years
leading up to the time of the Enterprise, but that would raise a
whole new discussion.  One that I'd be interested in, if there are
linguistics students reading this group who'd care to speculate.

BTW I am Scots, and I don't mind Scotty's accent, it simply
exaggerates the high camp nature of Star Trek. Isn't it funny that
many of the complaints about TNG are equally valid if applied to the
original?

Neil

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 13:38:42 GMT
From: dbw@crash.cts.com (David B. Whiteman)
Subject: Re: Data & Asimov's Laws of Robotics

Several articles have been discussing whether Data has the three
laws of robotics as described by Asimov.  One point that I would
like to mention is that in the novel by David Gerrold based on the
pilot, Encounter at Farpoint, it was mentioned that Data was built
by an advanced alien race that for some reason built an android with
human characteristics.  Why this alien race decided to build the
android, and why they built it with human characteristics is
unstated -- these questions were asked to Data by the first officer,
and Data replies that he does not know.  Data has no memories of
this alien race, nor apparently has any human met any member of this
race.  A Federation ship just happens to discover Data on a planet
formerly occupied by this alien race.  At this time Data is
activated for the first time and endeavors to learn as much about
humans as possible and ends up becoming a Starfleet officer.

Asimov's robots were all built by humans, so even if all human built
robots were built with the three laws, it is not necessarily true
that Data has them built in.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 19:03:25 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Warp Speed, the galaxy, and the double nickle

From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@almsa-1.arpa>
>In any case, it would take it thousands of years to rendezvous with
>the rest of the ship at Farpoint, poking along on impulse power.
>Where would its power source or fuel be for this voyage, anyway? (I
>have visions of the crew families burning the lounge furniture in
>the matter-conversion furnace to keep up steam for the long voyage
>to reunification, as they age, die, and generation succeeds
>generation... :-)

TV and movie SF have always been sloppy when it comes to the
problems of intersteller travel.  They just want to get their
characters from planet to planet, and don't *care* about all this
nonsense about time dilation, the lightspeed barrier, solar systems,
intersteller distances, etc.  Consider, for example, the ST episode
The Balance of Terror.  This is about a duel between two ships on
the boundary of a two humungous star empires.  Yet the assumption
thoughout seems to be that the entire battle takes place in Einstein
space.  Yes I know, if you interpret this and that just so, you can
make it all work scientifically.  But if you do, you're putting more
effort into the scientific rationalization than the producers of the
show could be bothered with.

I think the only way to watch video SF, unless you like to make a
career of picking nits, is to just watch the central theme, and not
worry too much about the background.  Of course, this approach falls
down when you're dealing with a TV producer that is *so* proud of
how much science he knows.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 18:36:00 GMT
From: eds9305@acf3.nyu.edu (Eric Shafto)
Subject: Subtlety in ST??? What am I saying???

It suddenly occurs to me that I (and a great number of net-types)
have completely missed the point of that obnoxious 'Q'.  The reason
for this is that the show threw us a curve.  We were expecting Star
Trek, and instead they gave us this show that contained something
_subtle_!  Who'd have thunk it?

Never mind Q's attitude (which was repulsive), his actions were at
every time exactly what he said they were.  He was attempting to
test and improve a pathetic (in his possibly correct view) species.

For all it seems that he is trying to make the test unfair, all he
really does in the way of intervention is to prevent the crew from
blowing it.  However, he knows that, being barbaric, we will respond
better to his insults than to kindness and hints.

It seems to me that the worst thing he did was to steal the idea of
the Tholian Web (any patent lawyers out there :-) ).

All he really did was see a problem that needed solving and goad us
into solving it as a way of proving our right to join the community
of space-faring species.  He even gives us hints, prevents us from
using phasers against one of the Jellyfish, etc.

Upon viewing it again, one can even see places where he seems
pleased with us while he insults us.  Of course, he could have just
said, "There is something fishy about Farpoint (was that the name?)
station.  Go check it out."  But then we wouldn't have been warned
that our Barbarism would get in our way.  We would have seen that
Jellyfish and started firing.  They nearly did that anyway.

His departing petulance and childish threat that he might return is
just to remind us to watch that part of us that is _worthy_ of
insult: the You-are-not-fit-to-lick-the-UFP's-boots nationalist
attitude, our readiness to use violence, our impulsiveness, etc.

To recap, Q was not evil.  He was simply play-acting a role that he
felt was geared to our mentality.  Since most people on the net
responded as did the crew, Q was probably quite right.

I guess ya gotta be cruel to be kind.

Eric Shafto
eds9305@acf3.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 18:05:02 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Data & Asimov's Laws of Robotics - Daystrom Laws

I don't see Data as programmed with Asimov's laws, but rather what
might be called the "Daystrom Laws" or the "M-5" laws.

After M-5, the first AI, went berserk and killed hundreds of Star
Fleet personel, there would have been a legislative backlash against
all forms of A.I.

Several laws would have been put on the books governing what can and
can't be done in constructing and programming A.I.s

I think that the 2nd half of the "1st law" (Asimov's) and the 2nd
law would make an A.I. useless as an attempt to simulate mankind.  A
more reasonable set of laws would be:

   1) I will obey the laws of Mankind
   2) I will preserve myself.

Note that depending on the strength of the human law in question,
rule 2 might superceed rule 1.

Rule 1 would cover much of the first law, as it would prevent
harming humans, but not if the AI is acting in a legal capacity,
such as law enforcement.  It would also require the AI to obey its
superiors at Star Fleet.

It's my belief that one of the "Daystrom Laws" requires all AIs to
have silly names so that they can be distinguised from humans.
We'll know this is true if we meet Ensign Card-Reader.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 87 07:38:29 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: The Nakked Now -- obvious solution to a stupid episode

From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Also, on the subject of TNN, doesn't it seem like the saucer
>separation would have been a lot more useful here? Or was it cut
>off when the command computer went down? Good grief!!! Let's just
>run the phasers through the main warp engines again!!

The solution to the problem is obvious.  The writers are obviously
idiots.

The scenario was like this: the Enterprise was tractor beamed to the
science vessel.  Had anyone had their heads half screwed on they
would have beamed over to the science vessel and used its impulse
engines to tow the Enterprise away.  As it was, the Enterprise was
saved, but a multi-billion credit starship was destroyed!  Whose
side were these people on anyway?  More important question: who is
putting up the megabucks for this stupid show, and how are they
going to feel when they lose it all?

dlleigh@media-lab.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 87 12:56 EDT
From: <LEE_JES%CTSTATEU.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek:  The New (Put preferred noun here)

>   It is unclear whether the Galaxy-class ships are in the same
> situation.  THat is, whether they are intended to function as
> battle cruisers.  Probably not.

They're not, although the ship's mission set forth in the Writers'
Guide states that the Enterprise is to "provide for Earth/Federation
security".

Which is something that bugs me... Throughout the Writers' Guide,
Roddenberry uses key phrases such as "expand the body of HUMAN
knowledge" (the capitals are mine), "provide understanding of the
universe and HUMANITY'S place in it"...  What about Vulcanity?  Or
Klingonity?  Or Vogonity?  (Oops, wrong series.)  What I object to
is that he automatically treats other races as inferiors...  Humans
aren't at the top of the heap, ya know!

The special effects in the first episode (saucer-sep) were okay, but
did any of the effects people (or anybody at all on the production
staff) bother to remember that the saucer section didn't have warp
drive?  I mean, as soon as the primary hull was out of the warp
envelope, it would have dropped back into normal space, instead of
pulling away slowly and gracefully, as it did.  And they wouldn't
have made it to Farpoint on their own power for many, many years.

I agree with whomever it was who objected to the use of videotape
special effects.  (It reminded me quaintly of Doctor Who.  Good
show, lousy effects.)  I hope Star Trek's improve.  No matter what
anybody else (or myself, for that matter) says, it IS enjoyable
entertainment (at least the second and third episodes).

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 12:41:12 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Re: Bryce/Wesley
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

>I thought Wes Crusher in "The Naked Now" was more than a little
>like Bryce from M-M-M-Max--anybody else?

   You must be joking.  Somehow I don't see Wes in the same league
as Bryce.  Wes has a "Gee Whiz look what I can do" attitude to life
that Bryce doesn't.  Bryce would probably have been able to put
together a fully functional model of the Enterprise (Anti-matter
propulsion and all) in the time Wes put together those toys of his.
If you hadn't noticed yet, I *HATE* the character of Wes on ST:TNG,
and yet, I like Bryce.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 06:31:30 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Data & Asimov's Laws of Robotics

dbw@crash.CTS.COM (David B. Whiteman) writes:
>it was mentioned that Data was built by an advanced alien race that
>for some reason built an android with human characteristics.  Why
>this alien race decided to build the android, and why they built it
>with human characteristics is unstated -- these questions were
>asked to Data by the first officer, and

   If what you say is true, then Data is an anomoly worthy of more
research!  Data may, in fact, be a device to achieve some goal the
aliens had.  Perhaps the android was left on the planet
deliberately, with hidden ambition to infiltrate the Star Fleet.  It
is entirely conceivable that an android is programmed to be unaware
of it's higher priority of infiltrating the Star Fleet and
"unconsciously" following the programming of the aliens.

   I am not familiar with the book that David mentioned, so I don't
know if this is possible within the framework of the book.  Any
corrections are eagerly sought!

   My, this presents some interesting possibilities!  I wish they
would follow up on this notion.  It would be more interesting than
the semi-boring episodes we have seen so far.

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:   {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA:   cbmvax!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #465
Date: 21 Oct 87 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #465
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 87 0923-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #465
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 465

Today's Topics:

                Books - Donaldson & Feist (3 msgs) &
                        Ford (2 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) & 
                        LeGuin & McCaffrey & Niven (2 msgs) &
                        Tolkien (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 00:39:36 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!dagibbs@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: World Building

>One of the most fascinating human civilizations I have encountered
>was in a book called _Courtship_Rite_ (the author's name slips my
>mind right now).

The author's name is Donald Kingsbury, and yes it is a very
interesting book.

dave

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 87 01:45:45 GMT
From: c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu (Jon Yamato)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

I read Feist's _Magician: Apprentice_ and the first half of
_Magician: Master_ before losing my copy and failing to replace it.
I won't pretend to be an authority based on one and a half books.
   For what it's worth, though--I was very put off by his failure to
describe waht the reader was seeing.  He tended to name things,
assuming that a reader with a good background in fantasy would know
what an Elf, Dwarf, wraith, dragon, etc. would look like.  While I
certainly have pictures of these things, I would like to hear what
Feist thinks they look like, rather than being expected to fill them
in myself.
   In a more abstract fashion, I thought he made the same mistake
with the characters--presenting an outline and expecting the reader
to fill it in with his/her own ideas about wizards, elven queens,
dukes's daughters, etc.  I think that readers who like Feist are
those more willing to make pretty pictures out of the outlines he
gives, and those who hate him expect filled- in images from the
author.
   If you don't see what I mean, look at the scene in _Apprentice_
where the characters meet a wraith in the dwarf mines.  They say "Oh
no!  A wraith!"  or words to that effect.  "It will drain our life
force!"  But the reader never <sees> anything but a shadowy form (if
that).
     Our discussion is foundering, as C. S. Lewis pointed out in a
very similar situation, on the fact that we really aren't talking
about the same book.  I'm just looking at what Feist wrote.  You may
have woven a tremendous story around those bare bones.

Mary Kuhner

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 15:40:06 GMT
From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK)
Subject: Re: Feist

martin@yale-celray.UUCP (Charles Martin) writes:
>I had the odd feeling while reading _Magician_ that Feist must have
>been familiar with M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (role-playing
>games and two books: _The Man of Gold_ and _Flamesong_).  The
>"insectoid" creatures look oddly like Pe Choi, and the general
>milieu of Kelewan (?) seems to bear an odd similarity to Tekumel.
>(There are, of course, common cultural antecedents in India,
>etc---just as there are between Feist and Tolkein in the common
>body of Graeco-Roman and Western European history and myth.)

Several years ago, I bought a "universal" rpg supplement called "The
city of Carse". Carse was in a world called Midkemia, and the name
of the company which put it out was "Midkemia Press". When I first
read the Magician books, I checked and the authors match. Actually
the "universal" rpg mentioned was Midkemia's own, a D&D-like game
which included lesser and greater path magicians.

Larry

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 16:35:16 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Re: Feist

martin@yale-celray.UUCP (Charles Martin) writes:
>I had the odd feeling while reading _Magician_ that Feist must have
>been familiar with M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (role-playing
>games and two books: _The Man of Gold_ and _Flamesong_).  The
>"insectoid" creatures look oddly like Pe Choi, and the general
>milieu of Kelewan (?) seems to bear an odd similarity to Tekumel.
>(There are, of course, common cultural antecedents in India,
>etc---just as there are between Feist and Tolkein in the common
>body of Graeco-Roman and Western European history and myth.)
>
>Anybody else get this feeling?  Tolkien's well-known, but I
>would've liked to have seen a credit to Barker if he was a source
>of inspiration.

FYI, Charlie, Feist (like Barker) was involved in role-playing game
design before he became a novelist.  He is (or was) president of
Midkemia Games in California, which provided some of the background
for his writings.  Mid- kemia produced several pieces of an RPG,
including _Cities_, _Carse_, and _Tulan of the Isles_, all published
between 1977 and 1983, when the company fell beneath the waves, like
so many of its kind (for instance, the one I worked for/with,
Gamelords Ltd.)  Barker's milieu Tekumel first appeared in an RPG
around 1975, and wasn't in paperback until much more recently.

Walter H. Hunt
Compugraphic Corporation
decvax!cg-atla!hunt

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 19:52:53 GMT
From: ammon@hpscdg.hp.com (Jim Ammon)
Subject: Re: How Much for Just the Planet

Maybe we can get John M. Ford to write for the new Trek series.

Jim Ammon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 00:35:45 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: How Much for Just the Planet?

Can anybody identify all of the songs Ford used? I recognized only
"Rawhide" and "I'm just a gigalo(sp?)/I ain't got no body (:-))"

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 23:36:11 GMT
From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Lord Julius)
Subject: Re: Deryni/Kurtz

MURPH@MAINE.BITNET (M.A. Murphy) writes:
>In several places throughout the 3 Deryni trilogies mention is made
>of people showing Deryni talents who are not known to have Deryni
>ancestry.  A number of these people turn out to be at least part
>Deryni whose ancestry has been hidden from them because of the
>persecution of the Deryni as a race.  Kelson's blood brother Dhugal
>was supposed to be human, but it turns out that he was sired by
>Duncan who was half Deryni and thus had Deryni powers himself.

In Appendix IV of _High Deryni_, "The Genetic Basis for Deryni
Inheritance," Kurtz says the gene for Deryni powers is sex-linked,
with a simple dominant gene on the X chromosome.  Therefore, Dhugal
cannot have inherited any Deryni powers from Duncan, since the
latter supplied Dhugal's Y chromosome.

Is this Kurtz' error, or does Dhugal have Deryni ancestors on his
mother's side?

Brian W. Ogilvie
ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
...{hao,uwvax}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil

------------------------------

Date: MON OCT 19, 1987 18.02.33 EDT
From: "Tom Browne" <TPB1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: RE: Kurtz / Deryni books

c60b-ej@buddy.berkeley.edu writes:
>...It is puzzling that although Deryni have been persecuted for
>hundreds of years by Kelson's time, they seem to outnumber
>humans....

First of all, Deryni have only been persecuted in Gwynedd, in all of
the other surrounding kingdoms, Deryni have flourished, so it is not
surprising that many of the exterior threats to Gwynedd have been
from Deryni.

As for the number of Deryni within Gwynedd, this is a standard point
of view problem... i.e.  if you lived in a foreign country and knew
nothing about the United States, and were given a book which you
were told was about life in the states.  If the book dealt with the
life of a poor, black ghetto family, you would probably think that
most Americans were poor black people.  If it was about american
farmers, you would probably think most people were farmers.  Neither
of these assumptions would be right though.  It is just that the
main characters were all tied together in one way, so you assumed
that most people are that way.  It is the same with Kurtz's writing
-- it centers on the Deryni, and therefore more Deryni will show up
than would actually be expected on a true ratio basis.  This does
not mean that Deryni are that much more prevalent than humans.
   As for somebody's comment about the number of non-Deryni with
Deryni powers -- Dhugal can't be counted , he IS Deryni.  And the
others could all be people who were "turned off" as Rhys and another
healer (I forget who) were able to do.  The people would not scan as
being Deryni, and would not be able to use their powers.  Perhaps
over generations, the powers started to break through the lock
(genetically work around the "blocks").  I would not want to say
this is the case, only a possible explanation.

Tom Browne
TPB1@LEHIGH.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 87 10:13 PST
From: Morgan Mussell <MORGAN%FM1%intel-sc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Le Guin

In September I posted part of a local newspaper review of a new
collection of short fiction by Ursula Le Guin.  I was unable to find
the book in local bookstores, specialty or otherwise.  Yesterday I
spotted the title story of the collection, "Buffalo Gals Won't You
Come Out Tonight", in the November issue of F&SF.  The piece, listed
as a novella, should especially appeal to lovers of Native American
stories, since it's an imaginative placement of a trickster tale
("Coyote was coming along...") in a contemporary setting.

SPOILER:

A young girl survives a plane crash in the desert.  She is found by
coyote who leads her to a small village of "the old people" - the
animal beings- who heal her injuries and and befriend her, sharing
with her some of the knowledge of their ways.  After a time she
feels a longing to return to her own kind, yet on several approaches
to villages of humans, she is also repelled:

      "All around them the pressures increased.  It was as if the
   air itself were pressing on them, as if time were going too fast,
   too hard, not flowing but pounding, pounding, pounding, faster
   and harder till it buzzed like Rattler's rattle.  'Hurry, you
   have to hurry!' everything said.  'There isn't time!' everything
   said.  Things rushed past screaming and shuddering.  Things
   turned, flashed, roared, stank, vanished."

Finally she is led to Grandmother Spider, "...at her loom.  She was
making a rug or blanked of the hills and the black rain and the
white rain, weaving in the lightening."  She tells the girl that she
must return, yet there is hope:

      "Go on, little one, Grandaughter," Spider said.  "Don't be
   afraid.  You can live well there.  I'll be there too you know.
   In your dreams, in your ideas, in dark corners in the
   basement..."

END SPOILER

Based on the first tale, I look forward the finding the collection.
A footnote: I stumbled over this month's F&SF at the supermarket,
where it was displayed (this is true) between "Iron Horse" and
"Swimsuit International".  Tell me again what mainstream means?

Morgan Mussell

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 18:55:32 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: The Coelura -- More dollars for your reading enjoyment

Anne McCaffrey's new book, "The Coelura", just appeared in the local
bookstore.  It's about 25,000 words long.  (Rough estimate.  It's
156 pages -- small ones, like "Nerilka's Story", but with larger
print -- including illustrations, and I opened a page at random and
counted 180 words.)

I haven't read it.  I'll read it when it appears in the library.
Even if I knew it to be the best book to be published this year I
wouldn't buy it, for fear of sending the publisher a message that
there are customers willing to pay hardcover novel prices for short
stories.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 19:17:00 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

Philip Verdieck writes:
>Hold on here.  The reason, as I see it that the State used humans
>for Rammers was that only a human would have the neccessary skills,
>don't ask me which, to arrive at certain conclusions....

In order to make your point, you're going to need to point out what
skills the Peersa software lacked that Corbell had.  There were
certainly no situations in the book where Peersa was unable to
respond because he was "only a computer".

I think you're making the mistake of thinking of human memory as a
collection of facts, a sort of 5-senses tape recording.  It's much
more than that, it's all the cognitive, emotional and other brain
programming that organizes and synthesizes the brain's memory.
Clearly, the science of The State knows how all this stuff works, or
it wouldn't be able broadcast the Peersa program in the first place.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 19:16:13 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Niven's Univerrrrr.........ack

>     Let's see you manage to integrate Jerryberry Jansen's universe
>into this stuff - no, it is not the Known Space series - the
>JumpShift stuff has ranges of light years and that stuff sure as
>heck would screw up the logic of KS...
>   Am I wrong or what?

A very good point, we all seem to have forgotten an entire Niven
universe.  I think this series died an early death because they were
all about a single idea (what's the effect of very VERY cheap and
fast transportation on society) which wore out quickly.
  Telportation seems to bring out the best and worst in Niven.  Very
amusing that Louis Wu would hop into a telport booth to delay ending
his 200th birthday -- but why does a teleport society still have
time zones?  (And in the first edition of Ringworld the twit goes
east instead of west.)  The "flash crowd" is a very interesting and
insightful speculation -- but the reporters covering them carry
humongous coin purses for the booths.  (This particularly irked me
because I had just read Mack Reynold's SF stories about the problems
of criminals in a society in which computer transactions have
replaced cash.  And magnetic strips on the backs of credit cards had
already begun to appear when Niven wrote "Flash Crowd.")
  Thesis for discussion (flames welcome) Niven is the best *and* the
worst SF writer who ever lived!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 19:02:25 GMT
From: im4u!speegle@RUTGERS.EDU (Greg Speegle)
Subject: Re: Tolkien: what makes a great book?

DAVIDLI@SIMVAX.LABMED.UMN.EDU writes:
> I first came across _Lord of the Rings_ when I was in fifth grade.
> A local library had the "infamous" ACE paperback edition,
>
> was a year later that I finally got a complete copy (the
> "authorized" paperback) for my birthday.

Could someone tell me the story behind the "authorized", and other
LOTR books? My copies always said something about being the only
authorized versions, but until now I had forgotten about it.

Greg Speegle
{ihnp4,seismo,pyramid}!sally!speegle
speegle@sally.utexas.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 12:10:37 GMT
From: uunet!mcvax!dutrun!etstkvh@RUTGERS.EDU (Karel van Houten)
Subject: Re: Tolkien Love/Hate

leavitt%hpscad.DEC@decwrl.dec.com writes:
>Of course, if you haven't discovered this by the end of the first
>volume, then you probably should put it down, and you CERTAINLY
>should not attempt the SILMARILLION!  That is clearly for the
>die-hards.  But please grant the Tolkien lovers out here our little
>discussions.

For me, a real Tolkien Fan, this remark about the Silmarillion is
not true. I have re-read the Silmarillion more often then the LOTR.
I like the Silmarillion more because it contains more interesting
characters, and not so many (quite boring) hobbits.  When you also
like the Silmarillion, the Unfinished tales are a MUST too!

Karel van Houten
Delft University of Technology
Faculty of Electrical Engineering
Room 9.29H, Mekelweg 4, DELFT / NL
INTERNET: karel@dutesta.UUCP
UUCP: ..!mcvax!dutrun!dutesta!karel
VOICE: +31 15 783502

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #466
Date: 21 Oct 87 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #466
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Oct 87 0939-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #466
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 466

Today's Topics:

                  Books - May (5 msgs) & Willis &
                          Wolfe (2 msgs) & 
                          "Specialist" (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 October 1987 08:59:05 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Julian May (was Re:  Anthony & Chalker)

perry@intelob.intel.com (Peter Kiehtreiber) writes:
>Has anybody around read the *Exiles* (or *Pliocene*) cycle by
>Julian May? In my opinion, these four books make one of the best
>stories I have ever read, as far as overall picture, mood, story
>line, suspense, depiction of ESP and much else are concerned.
>Highly recommended. ****+ on the Chuqish scale.

I liked these stories too, and am looking forward to reading
_Intervention_ when it comes out in paperback.  However, I can't
rate them as highly.  I really enjoyed the earlier parts of the
series when the psi powers seemed well balanced and not too
powerful.  Later on, things seemed out of control to me, and I
certainly didn't like the numerical scale that May used to rate psi
power.  It seems to me that in trying to reach successive climactic
peaks, May occasionally copped out by just escalating the
capabilities of her characters.  In the process she reified the
initially multi-faceted psi powers into a single continuum, in much
the same way as psychologists reified the complex concept of
intelligence into the grossly inadequate IQ scale.  However, May did
maintain my interest through the entire series because she had
plenty of other stuff cooking: non-conflictive inter-personal
interaction, revelations, flirtation with time travel paradoxes,
etc.

Julian May has one other story I know of, entitled 'Dune Roller', I
think.  I believe I read it in Asimov's 'The Great SF Stories'
series.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 87 11:37:56 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #440

From two consecutive SF-LOVERS letters:
> Has anybody around read the *Exiles* (or *Pliocene*) cycle by
> Julian May? In my opinion, these four books make one of the best
> stories I have ever read, as far as overall picture, mood, story
> line, suspense, depiction of ESP and much else are concerned.
> Highly recommended. ****+ on the Chuqish scale.  (That's as far as
> my neck will come out. Now who has the axe? :-)

>I would like to hear of a fantasy story where the theme good vs.
>evil is not present.  Christian good or otherwise (good is farely
>(not completely) standard so I don't quite understand the emphasis,
>but this does seem in tone with other of your messages I've seen,
>so enough comment).

I just finished reading all four of them this weekend.  Kind of fun.
No.  Lots of fun.  It even has some of the Literary-scale qualities
that inspire firefights every year or two: some of the characters
are sort of real, with things like personalities and imperfections.

** MILD SPOILER WARNING **

The Exile books weren't Forces of Good vs. Forces of Evil, at least
from the reader's point of view.  Many of the characters would
quarrel with me about this -- many of them would blast me to bits --
but that's a point in the book's favor.  Here are some of the main
groups in the story.  Guess which of them is Good and which is Evil:

  - some aliens who enslave a large chunk of humanity;
  - a group of free humans trying to free the rest of humanity;
  - A group of aliens who oppose the slavers, and help the human
    freedom-fighters;
  - a group of humans who joined the slaver-aliens as equals, and
    help in their domination;
  - some hideous human-eating mutant aliens;
  - some humans who staged a rebellion against a benevolent galactic
    culture and toasted a few planets;

To a remarkable extent, all the groups are both.  Some do better
than others, and one group does manage to seem pretty evil by the
end; but even it is evil rather than Evil.

Bard Bloom

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 17:05:01 GMT
From: hplabs!well!mandel@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Mandel)
Subject: Re: Julian May (The Intervention)

Julian May's new book, _The Intervention_, continues her Pliocene
saga epic, but takes place in the modern era.  It provide the
historical context of how humans develop metapsychic powers and meet
the rest of the galaxy.  Quite good if you like Mays' earlier stuff.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 18:08:25 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Julian May

pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz) writes:
>My question is, what are the titles in which Julian May originally
>writes about Jack the Bodiless, his brother Marc, and Diamond Mask,
>as well as the Psychic Revolution?

The promised titles are "Jack the Bodiless," "Diamond Mask," and
"Magnificat."  Anybody know when these books can be expected?

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 00:21:44 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!peterh@RUTGERS.EDU (Peter Handsman)
Subject: Re: Julian May

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz) writes:
>>My question is, what are the titles in which Julian May originally
>>writes about Jack the Bodiless, his brother Marc, and Diamond
>>Mask, as well as the Psychic Revolution?
>I was under the impression that these books were to be prequels.
>She publishes first in England - Pan Books.  So, if you know of a
>Yankee store that caries Pan Books, you'll probably see them there
>a good 6 months before an American publisher gets a hold of them.
>I noticed this when the last 2 books came out.

The next book by Julian May, after the 'Pliocene' series is now out
in hardcover....

Intervention: A root tale to the Galactic Milieu.

this book is in between the promised Galactic Milieu series and the
old series.

I liked it, even if it was a bit too much toward setting things up.

ps. From looking at the picture on the back flap, Julian May is
female.

Peter Handsman

------------------------------

Date: 13 October 1987 14:31:42 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Connie Willis (was Re: Brin/Benford)

hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>From: Jo_M._Anselm.henr801E@Xerox.COM
>>>'The Postman' is the better book.  'The Heart of the Comet' is
>>>trashy fun, but not quite as good as the others, presumably
>>>because it's diluted by Gregory Benford.
>>Interesting comment.  Brin himself has said he thought Heart of
>>the Comet was a much better book than Postman, and I personally
>>would never regard Benford's contributions (to anything) as
>>'dilutions'.  Try Artifact.  You might prefer it to In the Ocean
>>of Night.  Or not.
>Whew.  I guess this is why authors shouldn't write criticisms of
>their own works.

Especially Connie Willis.  Did anyone read her collection of short
stories, _Firewatch_?  Her introductory blurbs were as bad as her
stories were good.  She seems to think that her main skill is in
making plot twists ('staying one step ahead of the reader').  For
example, she ruined one story (I think it was 'A Letter From the
Cleary's) by telling the reader there was at twist at the end.  This
ruined the story for one of my friends: she knew there was a twist
at the end, so she figured it out way ahead of time and thought
there was nothing else to the story.  Despite what Willis says in
her intros, suspense and plot twists can't be her main strengths,
because I had read several of her stories before and still enjoyed
re-reading them.  Many of her stories would be good no matter how
they ended: they feature interesting perspectives and subjects, and
are often quite humorous.  Fortunately for me, I quickly caught on
to the way the intros were destroying her stories.  If you buy the
book, read her stories first, then, maybe, go back and read her
intros.

(Dolan continues):
>... The Heart of the Comet, on the other hand, had such totally
>unbelievable biology that suspending disbelief was not possible.

I haven't read _Heart of the Comet_ yet (it's sitting on my shelf),
so I can't judge this statement for myself.  But I thought that
_Analog_'s reviewer, Tom Easton, who has said that he is a
biologist, thought _Heart of the Comet_ was science-fictionally
acceptable biology.  Interestingly, Easton himself disputed the
plausibility of the biology in Harry Harrison's _West of Eden_, even
though Harrison had academic help in constructing the creatures
described in his novel.  I'm no expert, although I have studied a
fair amount of evolutionary biology, but _West of Eden_ seemed quite
believable to me.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 06:57:49 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60RC)
Subject: Re: _Soldier of the Mist_ (SPOILER)

Dani Zweig writes:
>dant@tekla (Dan Tilque):
>>However, from various clues given, the protagonist is also a Roman
>>legionaire.
>You made an unjustified leap from "Roman" to "legion".  The
>protagonist is a Roman mercenary.  Period.

I guess I got the idea that he was a legionaire from the fact that
he was part of a group of Roman soldiers who were carrying Eagles as
battle standards.  This gave me the idea that he was from a legion
somewhere.  The group he was part of was probably a small cohort.

Also, I believe that at the time of the book, the entire Roman army
(when it was formed up) was called the legion.  However, it was made
up of citizens (mostly farmers) and disolved after the war was over.

So my question is still: where did these professional soldiers come
from?  And how did they get into the Persian army?  (Persia
recruited its soldiers from the various nationalities within the
empire and some adjacent regions (for example, the black man who was
from Nubia or thereabouts.)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 14:10:43 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: _Soldier of the Mist_ (SPOILER)

dant@tekla (Dan Tilque) writes:
>I've just read _Soldier of the Mist_ by Gene Wolfe and have some
>questions about it that I can't resolve.
>
>The book takes place in 479 B.C. just after the defeat of the
>Persian army at Plataea and the protagonist is a member of the
>Persian army.  However, from various clues given, the protagonist
>is also a Roman legionaire.
>
>As far as I know there were no Roman legions in existance at the
>time, or at least none that would hire out as mecenaries to a
>distant land like Persia.

There were perhaps no "legions" as such, but as you state later in
your posting, Rome had military control over a good segment of Italy
(the Latins and Etruscans).  To the south of Italy was the island of
Sicily that supported a Greek trading outpost at that time.  It
would not be unusual for a small band of Romans to find their way
down to Sicily and hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Greeks
there, perhaps as fighters on a trading vessel in case the ship ran
into pirates.  From there, it's an easy step to Greece itself and
service with Greek armies.

I think it's important to underline that Romans were apparently rare
in Greece at that time, since no one Latro meets seems to recognize
his nationality.  This shows that Rome didn't have much of a
presence at that time in the Mediterranean...but it's still
reasonable to believe that a few informal mercenary bands found
their way to the Greek Wars.

By the way, readers who have read the Book of the New Sun may be
amused by the parallels between it and Soldier of the Mist.
Severian remembers everything; Latro remembers nothing.  Both are
capable of seeing "gods" where no one else can, and both are
obviously involved in great myths.  There's a good one-to-one
correspondence between Severian's group of companions, and Latro's.
There are also many scenes from Soldier of the Mist that echo
(sometimes ironically) scenes in the Book of the New Sun.  I don't
know what Wolfe's going to do with the two series, but I would not
be surprised if they continue to converge.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

P.S.  There is another New Sun book shipping even as we speak.  It
is already out in Britain.  I believe the title is "The Urth of the
New Sun" (that was the working title anyway).  It takes place ten
years after the events of Citadel of the Autarch, and begins with
Severian heading into space.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 16:57:36 GMT
From: B1E%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Story Request!

jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) says:
>Speaking of eyes, does anyone recall a story called "Specialist" (I
>think, and I have no idea who wrote it) wherein one of the aliens
>WAS an eye?

I just read this story within the past few months and I likewise
don't remember the author.  If anyone does, please let me know, I'd
like to read more.  As I remember there were different species
(Navigator, Eye, Talker, Pusher, Wall) that joined together in
symbiosis to form a sort of organic space ship and:

(Spoiler!)

The human race turned out to be a lost race of Pushers that had been
frustrated by their inability to do their gentically assigned task.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Oct 87 20:36:06 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Story Request!

jwbirdsa@phoenix.UUCP (James Webster Birdsall) writes:
>Speaking of eyes, does anyone recall a story called "Specialist" (I
>think, and I have no idea who wrote it) wherein one of the aliens
>WAS an eye?

Is that the one where the spaceship (composed entirely of living
parts) had lost its "pusher" in an accident (sure dates the story
before the 60's; who'd use "pusher" to describe the hero today?),
and made planetfall on Earth, a planet full of wild pushers (us);
only the fellow recruited had no idea what a pusher was supposed to
do (hardly surprising) until the instinct overtook him and he jacked
the sucker up to warp 10^6?  I seem to remember Eye, Wall's ( a
pretty big group of lushes), a Communicator (a ropy, tendrilly sort
of thing), Engine, and others.

It's back in the library somewhere, but until I get off my duff and
put the collections into a database, it's nearly impossible to find
one short story in 1250 paperbacks.  Heck, it's hard enough to find
the novels (or the floor!)

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 02:49:51 GMT
From: mdk@cblpf.att.com (x5693)
Subject: Re: Story Request!

James Webster Birdsall writes:
>Speaking of eyes, does anyone recall a story called "Specialist" (I
>think, and I have no idea who wrote it) wherein one of the aliens
>WAS an eye?

I have a copy of it in an anthology titled _The Mirror of Infinity_,
edited by Robert Siverberg.  _Specialist_ was written by Robert
Sheckley, originally published in 1953.  I really liked this short
story too.  It has a very good premise and some truly alien aliens.
If anyone is into collections of excellent short stories, I highly
recommend this anthology.  It has _Private Eye_ by Lewis Padgett,
_All You Zombies-_ by Heinlein, and _I Have No Mouth, and I Must
Scream_ by Harlan Ellison, plus many more.  However, it may be a
little tough to find.  The copyright date is 1970, so you may have
to search some used book stores.

Enjoy!

Mike King
..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 14:00:36 GMT
From: jwbirdsa@phoenix.princeton.edu (James Webster Birdsall)
Subject: Re: Story Request!

"Specialist" (by Sheckley, thanks) also appears in an anthology
called "First Contact" that was edited by Noel Keyes. Unfortunately,
this anthology is at least as old as the other one mentioned in an
earlier posting, and probably is even older. Still, you might find a
copy at a convention.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #467
Date: 22 Oct 87 0839-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #467
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 87 0839-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #467
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 467

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Brunner & Duane &
                   Forward & Gibson & Morressey &
                   Spider Robinson (2 msgs) & Tolkien &
                   Van Vogt

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 00:41:17 GMT
From: dg-rtp!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Maroney)
Subject: Morally Ambiguous Time Travel Stories

eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>> It's a series of short stories about two rival "time
>> police"-style groups; they've been fighting for so long that
>> fighting is the be-all and end-all of their existence, with no
>> "good" or "evil" entering into it at all.  What I _do_ remember
>> about it:
>>
>> The rival groups call themselves the "Snakes" and the "Spiders".
>>
>> Probably wrong, but for some reason my mind suggests that Poul
>> Anderson was (the, one of the) author(s).
>
>Wrong-o, space cadet! The stories you're recalling were Fritz
>Leiber's "Change Wars" series, eventually collected as
>_The_Big_Time_, in which form

Well, I hate to be right, but the first poster (Brandon Allbery) was
actually not too far from correct the first time.

While it is true that Leiber wrote several stories about warring
factions of time-travellers (including the important "Just Try and
Change the Past"), there was a series of stories by Poul Anderson
about the Time Police which are just as morally ambiguous as
Leiber's.

While the Time Patrolmen assume that their job is to maintain the
history that they have evolved along (which leads to my favorite
time-travel story, "Delenda Est", about temporal interference which
leads to the defeat of Rome at the hands of Carthage at the end of
the Second Punic War), it is revealed in a later story that the TP
merely exists to assure the past of the super-powerful aliens who
supply them with their equipment. The hero of the series is ordered
to destroy a Mongol expedition to North America that would have lead
to Khubla Khan ruling the world, a history incompatable with that of
the aliens; however, it is made clear to the hero that no
interference with the past has lead to the expedition--only the
actions of the TP will prevent a Mongol empire from entering
America.

The stories (four of which are in Ace's _The Guardians of Time_, and
two of which are in _Time Patrolman_) are superb; they may be the
stories that made me such a raving time-travel enthusiast.

Leiber's "Changewar" stories can be found in the collection
_Changewar_, and in the related and Hugo-Winning novel _The Big
Time_. Very good, also, but much "spookier" than Anderson's.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 17:11:45 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Time wars

eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes:
>> I remember a series that is billed as SF (but has some definite
>> fantasy elements); I don't remember the name.  It's a series of
>> short stories about two rival "time police"-style groups; they've
>> been fighting for so long that fighting is the be-all and end-all
>> of their existence, with no "good" or "evil" entering into it at
>> all.  What I _do_ remember about it: The rival groups call
>> themselves the "Snakes" and the "Spiders".  Probably wrong, but
>> for some reason my mind suggests that Poul Anderson was (the, one
>> of the) author(s).

Most likely you are confusing the Change War stories with Anderson's
novel "The Corridors of Time", serialized in Galaxy/If.(?)

>Wrong-o, space cadet! The stories you're recalling were Fritz
>Leiber's "Change Wars" series, eventually collected as
>_The_Big_Time_, in which form they won a Hugo in '60 or '61 (I
>forget which). See Ace pb G-627.

"The Big Time" is a novel, severely observing the dramatic unities.
(Entirely set in a few hours in a Spider "place" outside the
continuum). There was another collection of the short stories made
called, probably, "The Change War".

Will Linden
{sun,philabs,cmcl2}!phri{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Oct 87 16:08:42-PDT
From: Martin Feather <FEATHER@vaxa.isi.edu>
Subject: Anyone know... Brunner time machine report??

I seem to remember a vague reference some years back in SF-LOVERS to
something by John Brunner characterized as a "consumers' report" on
time machines.  I'm keen to know more detail on what this is (and
where I might find it).  Any leads please?

Martin Feather
feather@vaxa.isi.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 00:42:22 EDT
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Magic in fantasy (was: Feist)

cmcl2!phri!dasys1!cheeser@RUTGERS.EDU (Les Kay) writes:
>I'm not much on hack and slash...I enjoy MAGIC, it uses and
>misuses.  Most of the fantasy authors of the last 20 years or so
>seem to have a manic fear of doing more with magic than TELING you
>how powerful a mage is...Enus Yorl, Gandal AAhz, etc., etc., etc.
>The type of fantasy, light, dark, classic - doesn't matter.  We are
>told of the great powers, but it is never used.

Have you read THE DOOR INTO FIRE or THE DOOR INTO SHADOW by Diane
Duane?  She is quite good at magic writing: not only do we see the
results of the spells, but we see how the sorceror sets it up. At
one point Herewiss is building a large illusion spell, to scare an
army. The words he uses seem almost sentient--one word turns on a
nearby one and attacks it, because they were too similar.  She also
mentions "circular spells," which, if the user is not careful, can
go on spiralling on and on inward until it crushes the life out of
the person.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 21:49:28 EDT
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Flight of the Dragonfly
To: hplabs!sun!sundc!potomac!jtn@RUTGERS.EDU

hplabs!sun!sundc!potomac!jtn@RUTGERS.EDU (John T. Nelson) writes:
> This sounds a bit like "Flight of the DragonFly" by Charles
> Sheffield

"Flight of the Dragonfly" was by Robert Forward, not Charles
Sheffield.

> where one of the aliens (they are called Flouwen) creates an eye
> out of his own protoplasm.

This isn't original with him.  Does anyone know where it was first
used?

Keith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 23:38:57 PDT
From: gruber.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

   I have read (and really enjoyed) two of William Gibson's books,
/Neuromancer/ and /Count Zero/.  (And I will purchase /Burning
Chrome/ very soon!)  One of the selling blurbs claims something like
"Gibson may have just invented a new sub-genre"
... by which I think they mean a universe with cyberpunks, "ice"
and "black ice", flatlining, decks, deck-jockeys, and so on.

   Someone suggested that M-M-Max Headroom was cyberpunk.  This
isn't quite right (and the letter writer used a smiley-face to
indicate this), but it shows that 'cyberpunk' is being used to
designate a genre.

   I would like to know a lot more about this:

   1. Did Gibson invent this sub-genre?
   2. What novels are precursors to this sub-genre?
   3. What authors do you think influenced its creation?
      (similar to question 2)
   4. Have other writers tried Gibson's universe yet?
      (What new novels are cyberpunk?)
   5. Where else have you seen cyberpunk (movies, etc.)?

Bob Gruber
Gruber.PA@Xerox.Com

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 20:03:25 GMT
From: tower!duane@RUTGERS.EDU (Duane Morse)
Subject: THE QUESTING OF KEDRIGERN by John Morressey (mild spoiler)

Time: irrelevant

Place: earth-like planet

Introduction: Wizard Kedrigern's wife, Princess, is accidentally
turned into a toad. This happened once before, and Kedrigern was
able to turn her back into a princess, but the same spell won't work
twice. Kedrigern and Princess start on a quest for an ancient wizard
who (hopefully) knows how to reverse the transformation.

Main storylines: adventures during the quest.

Fantasy elements: magic, fantastical creatures (giants, trolls,
etc.)

Critique: This is a thoroughly enjoyable book. There are a lot of
fantasy books which go a bit to far in mocking the genre --
characters which wise crack all of the time, for example. This book
is an example of one which treats the subject with humor without
sacrificing the story. I usually don't do this in critiques, but an
example will illustrate what I mean. Early in the book Kedrigern is
musing about the forthcoming quest. Princess (now a toad) asks what
he's thinking about. He replies that something just occurred to him,
and he continues by asking Princess if she's sure she was originally
a princess and not a toad which was transformed into a princess. The
adventures are interesting and fun, and the conclusion is not
entirely expected. Further, the writing is very consistent
throughout -- no real highs, but definitely no lows either; in
short, it's a pleasure to read.

Rating: 3.5 out of 4.0 - one to share with friends.

Duane Morse
...!noao!mot!anasazi!tower!duane
(602) 861-7609

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 16:31:53 -0400
From: new@UDEL.EDU
Subject: Re: Other Authors

What do people think of Spider Robinson's work?  He is currently my
favorite author.

Although he writes Science Fiction, the emphasis is on the
characters.  An understanding or explanation of the technology is
not needed to get the full impact of the book.  Like someone
commented about Asimov, Robinson's books never include stupid people
as characters.  The characters are so complex and realistic that I
almost want to write to Robinson and ask where these people live so
I can write to them.  In addition, his novels have a complex plot -
_Mindkiller_ is an excellent example. I can't offhand remember many
of his characters that I would consider "evil". Sure, some are
greedy, some are thieves, some are careless, some are ignorant. All
are realistic enough that you can put yourself in their place and
emote with their point of view.  Even his "walk on" extras seem real
and not just a plot complication.  His works fill me with much the
same feelings as does listening to Bethoven's Symphony No. 9.

If you haven't read anything by him, I highly recommend:
  Novels:   _Mindkiller_ and _StarDance_
  Shorts: A three-book non-trilogy consisting of
    _Callihan's Crosstime Saloon_, _Time Travellers Strictly Cash_,
    and _Callihan's Secret_ (read last).
  More Shorts: _Antinomy_ (or _Antimony_. I forget which. May be hard
    to find as it was remaindered before printing.)

He has other stuff out, all of which I highly enjoyed. These titles
just stuck out more than others. His wife also writes under the name
of Jeanne (sp?) Robinson.

I also enjoy Hal Clement's work, although I realise it's a little
flat.

Darren New
Computer Science
Univ of Delaware
new@udel.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 04:34:11 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Other Authors

>What do people think of Spider Robinson's work?  He is currently my
>favorite author.

Robinson was for a good while my favorite as well, but unfortunately
his quality has slipped significantly (and quantity as well, for
that matter).  His last novel, "Night of Power," to put it mildly
sucked.

His greatest problem (if such can be considered one) is that his
early works tend to be his best. The third volume of Callahan's Bar
was pretty mediocre, especially compared to the first one and a
half. And the final story, where he nuke's the bar, is a big "F**K
Y*U!" aimed squarely at his readers, and I don't tolerate authors
that flip me off in capital letters very well.

Unless, of course, there is some other reson to read him. In the
last few years, there hasn't been.

Robinson started off as a hell of a writer. Today, he's still a good
writer, but he never grew into his potential -- to some degree, he
now seems to be writing the first novel quality material he skipped
on his way up. There are too many good authors to watch getting
better to sit around and watch a flying star crash and burn.

>If you havn't read anything by him, I highly recommend
>  Novels:   _Mindkiller_ and _StarDance_
>  Shorts: A three-book non-trilogy consisting of
>    _Callihan's Crosstime Saloon_, _Time Travellers Strictly Cash_,
>    and _Callihan's Secret_ (read last).
>  More Shorts: _Antinomy_ (or _Antimony_. I forget which. May be
>    hard to find as it was remaindered before printing.)

I'll agree with all of these. Antinomy was reprinted as "Melancholy
Elephants" by Tor as a paperback.

>His wife also writes under the name of Jeanne (sp?) Robinson.

Not strictly true. She collaborated with him on one novella, later a
book, the Hugo winning Stardance. That collaboration (based on a
talk they gave at BAycon a few years ago) was limited to standing
over his shoulder and making sure he got the dance right, but
considering how well the book was written, he could use some
shoulder-hovering more often...

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 02:10:33 GMT
From: uunet!unrvax!tahoe!malc@RUTGERS.EDU (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) writes:
>The first time I picked up LoTR, I quit after about 90 or so pages.
>The book started really slow ...  Background for the Rings was
>interesting, party was tedious, so was the departure, and
>subsequent journeying for the little buggers...

Did you read "The Hobbit" first?  HOB. 101 is a prerequisite for
LOTR 499.

>However, once I started reading the series again (From the Barrow
>wight on) I really enjoyed it.

The Barrow Wights!  Wow!  What a sequence.  I'm glad you ended up
enjoying LOTR.  I don't know if you read "The Hobbit" first, but...

I know several people who "don't like LOTR" (and never finished it),
who tried reading LOTR without having read "The Hobbit" first.  This
could be heavy going.  Since LOTR is based in TH, a lot of
background references in LOTR won't make sense.

Reading TH is a good way to ease one's self into Middle Earth
(Mediterranea?).  It's lighter reading than LOTR, and shorter (an
entire adventure in a single volume), although the writing is
certainly as well-crafted and its world as richly imagined as in
LOTR.

Anyway, there's MY two bits.  If you know anyone who's planning to
start LOTR, make 'em read "The Hobbit" first!

Malcolm L. Carlock
University of Nevada, Reno
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 87 23:24:00 PDT
From: rcf@pnet01.cts.com (Bob Forsythe)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #439

     Scott Bayes writes "The other thing is that I mostly not found
his (Van Vogt's) ideas to be very good either."
     I'm not sure how you can say that.  Taken in the context in
which they were written, ie. ca. 1940-1950, his ideas are far ahead
of his time.  In particular, "The Weapon Makers" duo and the Null-A
stories explore ideas that were generally not known or discussed at
that time(for that matter, find someone today outside of a small
circle of sf readers who would know what the symbol -A means).
While it is true that his science sucks and his human
inter-relations tend to get a little sappy, he was dealing with
possible futures and human conflicts quite well.  His books deal
with humanity.  Take a current(albeit obscure) idea and extrapolate
it into the future to look at the conflicts that might arise.  To
this small, if not significant end, he has succeeded quite well.
Within their *context* these books approach sf-masterpieces, but
like any other sf, they have to be considered within the time-frame
from which they came.  To do otherwise serves no useful purpose.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #468
Date: 22 Oct 87 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #468
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 87 0858-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #468
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 468

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 01:33:22 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  The New (Put preferred noun here)

LEE_JES@CTSTATEU.BITNET writes:
> Which is something that bugs me... Throughout the Writers' Guide,
> Roddenberry uses key phrases such as "expand the body of HUMAN
> knowledge" (the capitals are mine), "provide understanding of the
> universe and HUMANITY'S place in it"...  What about Vulcanity?  Or
> Klingonity?  Or Vogonity?  (Oops, wrong series.)  What I object to
> is that he automatically treats other races as inferiors...
> Humans aren't at the top of the heap, ya know!

You seem to think "human" = "homo sapien".  Why?  We have
generalized "man" to mean both genders, why not "humanity" to mean
all reasoning beings?  As for why he is using a generalization of an
English/American term, he is after all writing in that language,
rather than say Vulcan or Velcro.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 14:48:20 GMT
From: evansr@yale-zoo-suned..arpa (Ron Evans)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  The New (Put preferred noun here)

tainter@ihlpg.ATT.COM (Tainter) writes:
>LEE_JES@CTSTATEU.BITNET writes:
>> Which is something that bugs me... Throughout the Writers' Guide,
>> Roddenberry uses key phrases such as "expand the body of HUMAN
>> knowledge" (the capitals are mine), "provide understanding of the
>> universe and HUMANITY'S place in it"...  What about Vulcanity?
>> Or Klingonity?  Or Vogonity?  (Oops, wrong series.)  What I
>> object to is that he automatically treats other races as
>> inferiors...  Humans aren't at the top of the heap, ya know!
>
>You seem to think "human" = "homo sapien".  Why?  We have
>generalized "man" to mean both genders, why not "humanity" to mean
>all reasoning beings?  As for why he is using a generalization of
>an English/American term, he is after all writing in that language,
>rather than say Vulcan or Velcro.

Hum. The "humanity" thing bothered me too. I eventually concluded
that the Great Bird of the Galaxy wasn't as farsighted as I liked to
think.

Of course "human"="homo sapien". I mean, I'm not inside
Roddenberry's head or anything, but that is the way I tend to use
it. Roddenberry has switched from "where no MAN has gone before" to
"where no ONE has gone before". It would be inconsistent for him to
use "humanity" as a subset of "reasoning beings". Anyway, the show
seems quite humanocentric, or haven't you noticed that? Almost every
person we have seen on the new Enterprise has been human.  What
about the Andoreans? What about the Tellurians? What about those
little pygmy guys with the fezzes? What about that cat race and the
red three-legged race in the cartoon series? What about all those
jabbering Federation races in those ghastly Federation Council
Chamber scenes in TREK IV? And on and on...

As a Buddhist (please ignore my .signature's protestations to the
contrary), I am dismayed with this humanocentrism. Buddhism has a
term which bears thinking about in this context: "sentient beings".
(A sentient being can be anything from a mosquito to a god.) On the
other hand, as a human being I watch ST:TNG to see what perspectives
on the human condition one can get from watching humans interact
with androids and aliens and superbeings like Q in fiction, and in
that respect I think ST:TNG is very good so far.  The scene of Data
up in the tree attempting to whistle was entertaining and touching
at the same time.

Finally, "man" does not equal "human", and don't y'all forget it!
("Approximately half the men on the planet can breastfeed their
children." WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS SENTENCE?)

Ron Warren Evans
..evansr@yale-zoo-suned.UUCP
evaronw@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Oct 87 12:46:09-PDT
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: STAR TREK TNG

Jim Hester writes:
>My favorite peeves with the pilot:
>I can understand, from his heritage, why Worf might draw a phasar
>on Q.  But what was he doing WEARING a phasar on the Enterprise's
>BRIDGE??  This strikes me as completely contrary to the philosophy
>of the Federation.  I might allow a redshirt or two on the bridge
>to be armed, but not the crew in general.  In the old series, the
>phasars were generally locked up.  Have the rules been changed,
>since this new ship is supposed to spend more time in unexplored
>space?  I don't like the message it gives to races they meet.

   I can't help but wonder why you don't like this message.  On the
one hand, wearing no weapon *could* imply that the individual has no
reason to fear attack, due to the safety of the immediate
environment.  Then again, it could mean that the invividual is not
part of a ruling class.  As best as I can remember, the practice of
keeping crews unarmed dates back to when crewmembers were impressed
into service, and only officers were allowed to be armed, to give
the officers the edge in mutinous situations.
   On the other hand, in a truly free society, bearing a weapon is
not only an indication that the bearer is in a position of trust,
but is an indicator of full citizenship.  A person bearing a
sheathed weapon, if even recognizable as such by any given alien, is
at least as likely to indicate that the bearer is a person of
responsibility, as it is of any hostile intentions.
   It seems reasonable to me that a starcrew picked for such an
important and long term assignment would be selected from the most
mature and responsible candidates; it would follow that such
individuals are more likely to be trusted to carry personal weapons.

dale

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 16:45:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG "Code of Honor"

Well, it looks like the episodes keep improving.  This time Wesley
had very few lines which must have been a relief to all who watched.
Lt. Yar seemed to be more interesting, though I was surprised that
she flipped the guy at the beginning, but if the "regulations"
called for that...  She seemed quite a bit more competent than she
did in the previous two episodes.  I also liked the humor between
Data and Gorgi (? on the correctness of his name, the blind guy).  I
hope that we see more of this interaction.  Once again Worf had a
very small part.  I hope that we will see more of him in future
episodes.
   The Washington Post TV commentator said that he was upset that
WDCA is showing it at 6 PM on Saturdays and now during "prime time".
He said that other stations are showing it later.  I am interested
in hearing when it is shown in your area and if it is in prime time
how it is doing.  I am just curious.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 02:42:28 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek, The New Generation

mullen@braggvax.arpa (Paul Mullen) writes:
>(and please give it a better time slot then 7:00 on Saturday)

The time slot is determined by the local station showing the
program; ST:TNG is syndicated. Complain to the station's programming
department.

Bill Wisner
..ihnp4!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 87 03:08:20 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: The Next Generation

BARRON@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>The chunk of this exploding star breaks off and is hurdled out into
>space.  The Enterprise, from the looks of things (the star, etc)
>had to be quite some distance from the star.

Maybe, for whatever reason (I could come up with several) they felt
like reducing the magnification. Or maybe it's even a side-effect of
the process used to make the star viewable without blinding the
viewer.

>The area of a sphere of that radius would be huge and the star
>supposedly blows off matters in a random direction.  But *of
>course* this chunk of matter heads right for the enterprise and
>only takes 15 minutes to get there to boot.  If they were that
>close to the star it would be a) uncomfortably hot and b) the star
>would be larger and c) there would be untold radiation
>problems...why didn't the make a simple script change.  Make the
>star blow off an entire LAYER of matter, claim it's to hot or
>poisonous or

Remember, our planet is only eight minutes from our sun and we
haven't had many problems with heat (Californians might disagree) or
radiation. I think that 24th century technology could at least
simulate the shielding effects of the atmosphere of this one small
planet.

>This show is just one more example of the poor quality of American
>television in general and of SF TV in this country in particular.
>Its no better than Buck Rodgers (remember Gil Gerard? --Yuk!!)

Who ever said you have to watch TV? Max Headroom to the contrary, it
is NOT illegal to turn the tube off.

Bill Wisner
..ihnp4!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 22:58:50 CST
From: "Thomas W. Bassett" <C2789101%WUVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Three things/problems?

  I have three questions, two about the ST TNG series:

(1) I thought separation of the saucer from the remainder of the
ship was a _very_ drastic action, taken in extreme circumstances,
resulting in the destruction of the remainder of the ship -- the
saucer being able to escape only by means of impulse power (having
no warp pods, how can it travel at warp speeds?);

(2) In the original series, it was not possible to transport through
raised shields, which was done in ST TNG;

(3) If, as surmised here on the net, a transporter scans the object
before breaking it down and transmitting it, why would it actually
have to transfer _that_ particular matter -- any matter in the
vicinity which was deemed to be non-essential could be used, and for
that matter (sic), wouldn't this then permit cloning -- if a
person's 'matrix' were encoded in the transporter computer, then,
given a supply of suitable matter, an infinite number of exact
'copies' could be made!! (I put copies in ' ' since one could argue
that _anything_ transported in this manner is no longer an original
and actually a copy.

  Beam me up about here!!

Thomas W. Bassett
C2789101@WUVMD
Washington University in St. Louis

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 07:30:00 edt
From: Mike Stalnaker <mike@nrl-ssd.arpa>
To: BARBANIS@cs.umass.EDU
Subject: "The Naked Again"

If you look *very* closely, the others besides Riker have a black
dot in the center of one of the pips.  This indicates a rank of Lt.
Commander.  Ranks go as follows, near as I can determine. Note that
where I say 1/2 pip, that indicates a pip with a dot.

4 pips          Captain         Picard
3 pips          Commander       Riker, Dr. Crusher
2 1/2 pips      Lt. Commander   Data, Troi, Chief Engineer
2 pips          Lieutenant      Yar
1 1/2 pips      Lieutenant J.G. Worf, LaForge
1 Pip           Ensign          The girl with the eyes for Riker in
                                _Farpoint_

This follows current U.S. Navy ranks, but the Navy uses stripes
instead of the pips.

Hope this helps!

Mike Stalnaker

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 08:53 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Yar=TinaTech?

   I'd swear I've seen the actress who plays Yar somewhere, and the
only match I come up with is from Flashdance, and the dancer Tina
Tech. Anybody got a list of her previous credits?

Marina Fournier
Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 22:55:53 PDT
From: gruber.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Mr. Data

   From a posting on rec.arts.startrek I learned that Data was built
by some unknown alien race.  Apparently they were
(watching/visiting) a human planet where everyone was dying, and
couldn't save them.  So they decided to build a human and give him
all of the knowledge of the dying humans on the planet.  Data was
later found by Starfleet... he tested as being sentient and was
allowed to enter the Academy.

   So when you are wondering why Data is the way he is, just blame
it on these unkonwn aliens.  Apparently they failed to copy humans in
a bunch of areas, for example he is stronger than normal, and he
never forgets something once he hears/reads it (useful if you want
to remember the entire knowledge of a planet!).  Still they did a
good enough job so that he could get drunk, have sex, eat, (sleep?),
and so on.  ("If you prick me, do I not.... leak?")  Data's
motivations may be just as obscure and unpredicable as human ones.
In any event, you really shouldn't think of him as a walking
computer; a sentient being is not *programmed*.

   This should answer questions like:

>Why should Data be programmed with all three F's? (Feed, Flee,
>Reproduce)?  I should think the first two would be sufficient for
>an android.  Now, having the *capability* for the third is
>undoubtedly handy, but having the *drive* is hardly necessary.

[Actually it was Tasha that had the drive.  Data was just being
accomodating.  Most of us would have been equally as polite :->]

>Why was Data also affected by the infection?  Last time I poured a
>can of beer on my Sun it didn't run out and party.

   Some people have been wondering why Data doesn't know words like
"Snoop" and "Snootful" (somebody suggested he lost the "Sno" page in
his dictionary :->). For example, it was suggested that "Snootful"
would be used at the Starfleet Academy a lot. There's really no
telling what slang was used on the dying world where he memorized
things, and given his abilities he could have zipped through the
Academy's lessons/courses without taking time for fraternizing
(maybe even without sleeping).  Given enough interaction with
humans, he will eventually stop asking questions about slang words.
A more intersting point is whether he will eventually learn to
understand human jokes, or whether he will pick up on the social
graces/mores required by Picard et al.  (These two shortcomings were
combined when he didn't think anything wrong *or* funny when
reciting a dirty limerick on the bridge: "There was a young woman
from Venus, whose body was shaped like a ...".)

Bob Gruber
Gruber.PA@XEROX.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 00:07:30 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (David W. Berry)
Subject: Re: STTNG:The Naked Now

jay@ncspm.UUCP (Jay Smith) writes:
>jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>>     Lisa Wahl noted that Picard had a "British" accent.
>>Actually, French people who learn English generally learn it from
>>the BBC.  It's not surprising to have a British accented English
>>in Europe.  But his accent isn't British.  It's sort of upperclass
>>North American.
>
>Which makes me wonder why everyone assumes he's French.  Does it
>say Captain Picard is French in the Writer's Guide?  My first
>thought was that he was Canadian, and I'm surprised that Jim Omura
>(from Toronto) didn't suggest that.

Of course you already know this but, the third episode, _The Last
Outpost_ makes it clear that Picard is French.  The empassioned
speech about the French properly using Blue/White/Red as opposed to
the young upstart Americans who used Red/White/Blue is your first
clue...

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp
dwb@apple.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #469
Date: 22 Oct 87 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #469
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 87 0914-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #469
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 469

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Card (2 msgs) & Eddison &
                     Schmitz & Yarbro (3 msgs) & Book Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 17:32:31 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Asimov query: privacy invader

mcohen@uw-june.UUCP (Michael Cohen) writes:
> There is an Asimov story about a historian who invents a machine
> that can reenact a conversation that happened in the remote past.

Your story is "The Dead Past", the lead piece in
_Earth_Is_Room_Enough_, initially published in hardcover by
Doubleday in 1957 and reprinted twice through 1961. First reissue in
paperback was in 1970 as Fawcett Crest T1401.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
{{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 20 October 1987 08:24:08 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Mormon themes in SF (was Re: Orson Scott Card)

wales@cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales) writes:
>If *I* were to write a work of science/speculative/fantasy fiction
>that incorporated key Mormon religious concepts without being
>blatant about it, I would probably use things like the following:
> a. Someone is put to a test, in which a large portion of his
>    memory has been wiped or blocked, but his essential
>    character traits are still intact.  . . .
> b. Someone is faced with a choice between either remaining in an
>    idyllic environment, with no threats (but also no possibility
>    for growth), or else leaving for a dangerous and uncertain
>    existence (which also allows for personal growth and fulfillment
>    beyond com- prehension).  . . .
> c. A leader goes into seclusion, but arranges to have his life
>    somehow prolonged so that he can continue to guide his people
>    from the side- lines.  . . .

OK.  I'll bite.  This is 'The Worthing Chronicle' isn't it?

For those of you who haven't had the good fortune to read 'The
Worthing Chronicle' (which, unlike _Hart's Hope_, I can highly
recommend to anyone, if you can find it) I'll elaborate.  'The
Worthing Chronicle' is a series which includes several short stories
(many from _Analog_, a couple others in _Omni_ and _Destinies_; they
have been collected in _Capitol), and two novels _Hot Sleep_, and
_The Worthing Chronicle_.  The main technological device which
shapes this series is suspended animation.  By taking a drug called
somec, human bodies can be preserved indefinitely.  However, this
drug wipes out the user's memory.  So suspended animation only
becomes 'reasonable' when memories can be recorded and restored.
(** Minor spoilers ahead **)

In _Hot Sleep_, Jason Worthing is piloting a colonizing space ship
in which the passengers are all under somec.  The space ship is
damaged, and all of the passengers' memories are lost (except for
one person).  This satisfies point (a) above.

Jason doesn't have enough time to re-educate all of the people on
board, (without their memories, they're like babies), so he raises a
handful of the passengers until they're self sufficient, then goes
into suspended animation for a year or more at a time, bringing out
a few of the remaining passengers each time he returns.  This
satisfies point (c) above.

*** Spoiler required to verify point (b) ***

In _The Worthing Chronicle_, pp. 258-9, Card makes a rather explicit
statement along the lines of point (b) above:
     And they saw in Jason's mind the things he treasured most, the
  memories that were strongest, and they were all the times of fear
  and hunger, pain and grief.  And they looked into their own
  hearts, and saw what memories had endured through all the ages of
  time, and they were memories of struggle and accomplishment . . .
  these had lasted, while the simple contentment had not.  They saw
  that this was what had made them good, even in their own eyes; and
  because they had left the rest of man no evils to overcome, they
  had robbed them of the hope of greatness, of the possibility of
  joy.
     . . . they decided . . . that men and women would only become
  human again with the possibility of pain.

Before launching into a critique of the moral philosophy above, let
me make the disclaimer that I'm just stating my current personal
point of view, in the selfish hope that others with similar beliefs
can direct me to stories I'll enjoy.  This is not intended as a
refutation of anyone else's religion/philosophy.  But flames are
welcome anyway -- I'm a closet pyrophile.

I recently re-read _The Worthing Chronicle_, reading it much more
carefully and thoughtfully than the first time I read it.  One of
the things that really gave me pause for thought was the above
passage.  Certainly, it seems hard to argue with this philosophy as
it pertains to fiction (consider the demise of Larry Niven's Known
Space).  But I realized that I disagreed with this 'definition of
humanity', at least in the real world.  I don't see that it is
necessary to overcome anything evil in order to do something good.
I'm no fan of simple contentment, but I don't think danger, pain,
grief, or even discomfort are required for struggle and
accomplishment.  When I think of the things in my life I find most
rewarding, I think of intellectual and athletic achievements, and
lasting friendships.  I don't see how these endeavors would be
enhanced by 'fear and hunger, pain and grief'.

Does anyone know of any fiction that makes things like these (doing
good without overcoming evil, accomplishment without fear and
hunger, pain and grief) believable and interesting?  Or is this
merely an explanation of why people read and write non-fiction, too?
It seems to be so daunting a task that no one I know of attempts it,
and the literary establishment doesn't even consider it a goal.

Paul

P.S.  I just thought of something.  Maybe Card is using a broader
definition of 'pain' than I am.  When I use the term 'pain', I'm
referring to things I find painful :-).

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 15:28:23 GMT
From: kimi@fang.att.com (Kimiye Tipton)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card

boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>From:  buddy.Berkeley.EDU!c60b-ej      (Mary Kuhner)
> Back in 1979, Card came out with two books that comprised "The
> Worthing Chronicles": CAPITOL and HOT SLEEP. The latter was an ...
> 1983, Card reshuffled, compacted, and rewrote the series into one
> volume called THE WORTHING CHRONICLE.
>>    Are there legal guidelines, pitfalls, etc. in publishing a
>> book containing substantial material from your previous books?
> The only real pitfall is pissing off your fans who don't like
> buying the same story over again.

At NecronomiCon (Tampa) last weekend, Card mentioned he hoped to
keep HOT SLEEP off the market because it was inferior.  He also
mentioned that A PLANET CALLED TREASON will be reissued and he hoped
the publisher would allow him to rewrite it as well.  SONGMASTER is
currently reissued in paperback (unchanged).

Other tidbits: SEVENTH SON's original manuscript carried the
subtitle "Part 1 of the Tales of Alvin Maker", but that was removed
by the publisher, to Card's dismay, especially noting the price tag.
He has signed for five books with Tor, but believes the series will
run six (he rattled off the names so fast I couldn't catch any but a
couple refering to Alvin and one called THE CRYSTAL CITY).  Card
will have finished the series by the end of the year--no telling
when we will see it in print.

Card has another long series contracted (I think he called it the
Homecoming) that he says will look like old fashioned space opera
resembling Andre Norton's GALACTIC DERELICT.

And from another Necro guest--Frederick Pohl's CHERNOBYL is set to
be a TV mini-series directed by Larry Schiller (PETER THE GREAT) who
is now contracting Russian actors to learn English before filming
starts next year.  Pohl does note that he doesn't count on anything
out of Hollywood until he actually sees the film and has the check
in the bank.  Pohl's next book will be from Ballantine, called
NOREBEDLA LIMITED, (Aldeberon backwards), and will concern aliens
who kidnap opera singers.  Well, that's what he said.  Card
commented that this must be Pohl's venture into "serious" science
fiction, and Pohl agreed.

This was a good con, by the way, as small area s-f cons go.  The
dealers' room was disappointing (costumes and games, few books), but
the panels were excellent.


Kimiye Tipton
{ihnp4, clyde, ulysses, allegra, codas}!fang!kimi

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 13:34:27 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: E. R. Eddison

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>Regarding Eddison's Zimiamvian trilogy:
>C.S. Lewis once commented that he much disliked the world of
>the trilogy, though he loved Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros.

Do you have a citation?  My impression was that Lewis approved the
trilogy as literature though he abhorred its underlying philosophy.
I seem to recall his using the phrase "a new climate of the
imagination" about Zimiamvia.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 20 October 1987 23:45:39 CDT
From: <PUDAITE%UIUCVMD.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re:  Psi stories

butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Dave Butenhof) writes:
>Some of my favorites are:
>
>   James Schmitz's Telzy stories.  There are a few novel versions
>   out (The Telzy Toy, The Lions Game), and a number of short
>   stories (some of which were patched together to form the
>   novels), most in old Analogs.  I had quite a crush on Telzy as a
>   teenager, and it's still one of my favorite names.  Also, The
>   Witches of Karres is a rather cute Psi novel, though hardly
>   heavy-weight speculation.

I really liked _The Witches of Karres_ when I read it many years
ago, and I also liked what was apparently the first short story
among the Telzy stories (I think I found the story in an _Analog_
anthology of stories about children).  I went out and bought _The
Telzy Toy_ and thought it became worse and worse as it went on.  At
the time I was glad I didn't buy all of the Telzy novels that one
day, but I've always wondered if there might have been a few more
good stories tucked away in them.  Could someone who read the other
novels please inform me whether or not they're worth the effort?  If
you can explain why, all the better.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 14:35:54 PDT
From: chuq@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
To: guyc@pegasus.scrc.symbolics.com
Subject: Yarbro books...

Quinn's latest is "A flame in Byzantium" as a Tor hardcover. This is
the first of three books about Olivia, set in seventh century
Constantinople. Good stuff.

The book you're thinking about is "Tempting Fate" and is set in the
1920's (just barely pre-nazi) Germany. Probably her best St. Germain
story. It's currently out of print, but coming back as a Tor
paperback Real Soon Now. The best chance to find a copy is through
the Science Fiction Book Club.

chuq

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87  19:35 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Yarbro vampire novels

Guy Carruthers asked about the Chelsea Quinn Yarbro vampire books.
In order, they are as follows:

The Saint-Germain books:

   Hotel Transylvania (18th centure Paris)
   The Palace  (15th century Florence)
   Blood Games  (Nero's Rome)
   Path of the Eclipse  (12th or 13th century China, Tibet)
   Tempting Fate  (1930's Austria & Germany)
   The Saint-Germain Chronicles (short stories, various times)

I gather he was asking about the 5th of these.  All except the last
are out in hardcover, the first few at least are from St. Martin's
Press.  The last is available in hc only through the SF Book Club
(which carries all of them).  all are available in pb, as far as I
know.

Her *latest* vampire novel takes the character of Olivia from Blood
Games (above).  It is called *A Flame in Byzantium* and should be
out in hc any day now if it is not already.  This is the first in a
new three-book series which will take the protagonist through
various historical periods in the same way as Saint-Germain.  Only
three books because (to quote the author) "there are relatively few
historical periods in which a woman can really achieve some
independence."  (And she is limited to before the mid-1600's at
that!!!!)  from the cover-illo, *Flame* is going to take place
during the early middle ages in Byzantium (surprise).  Has anyone
read it?  Is it any good?

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 04:19:12 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Yarbro vampire novels

>The Saint-Germain books:
>   Hotel Transylvania (18th centure Paris)
>   The Palace  (15th century Florence)
>   Blood Games  (Nero's Rome)
>   Path of the Eclipse  (12th or 13th century China, Tibet)
>   Tempting Fate  (1930's Austria & Germany)
>   The Saint-Germain Chronicles (short stories, various times)
>All except the last are out in hardcover, the first few at least
>are from St. Martin's Press.  The last is available in hc only
>through the SF Book Club (which carries all of them).  All are
>available in pb, as far as I know.

I wish this were true. Hotel Transylvania should be coming out as a
Tor paperback right around now. The others are all out of print, but
HC and Paperback. The good news is that all (except The Palace,
which the last I heard had not reverted back to Quinn) have been
bought by Tor and will be re-issued in the next two years, along
with the Olivia series. When The Palace reverts, it will also go to
Tor (if it already hasn't, this information is a few months old and
I forgot to ask her about it last time I saw her)

>It is called *A Flame in Byzantium* and should be out in hc any day
>now if it is not already.

Been out about two weeks. Tor Hardcover, with a gorgeous San
Julian cover.

>has anyone read it?  is it any good?

Has Yarbro ever written a bad book? Yes, it is wonderful. It is (as
the rest of her Germain books) more or a historical novel than a
Fantasy/Horror novel (and what horror there is is aimed AT the
vampire, not caused by it; something I rather enjoy...) and
Byzantine Constantinople is a really depressing place to read about
(lots of NASTY people there...) but its well written and Olivia
makes a great protagonist. Very different than St.  Germain, and
very appropriate for this time period.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 19:16:24 GMT
From: spencer@ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Time wars

I need help in finding a time travel story that I read in my youth.
It dealt with a group of people who took tour groups back in time to
various historical "times & places."  I know that it is NOT the
story where the hunters go back to hunt mastodons or some such and
someone steps off the path and squashes a small insect, with
disastrous results back in the hunter's "real" world.  It's NOT that
one.  Can anyone help?

thanks...

Stephen Spencer
The Computer Graphics Research Group
The Ohio State University
1501 Neil Avenue, Columbus OH 43210
{cbosgd,ucbvax}!osu-cis!ogg!spencer
osu-cis!ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu!spencer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #470
Date: 22 Oct 87 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #470
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 87 0928-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #470
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 470

Today's Topics:

               Films - The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs) &
                       The Five Thousand Fingers of Dr. T &
                       The Pricess Bride (3 msgs) &
                       Lensman (3 msgs),
               Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs) &
                       Beauty And The Beast & Doctor Who

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 87 09:17 EST
From: <TCORAM%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (maroC ddoT)
Subject: Film Request

I live in Washington, D.C. and years ago our local PBS station
showed the movie *The Lathe of Heaven*. Years later, I finally read
the book of the same name by Ursula (spelling?) LeGuin.  Now I am
looking for the movie again...  Aside from waiting several more
years for PBS to run it again, does anyone know where I can get hold
of the film? Is it on video? Who made it? etc. etc.

tcoram@udcvax

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 87 20:57:00 GMT
From: silber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Film Request

It was made especially for either the BBC or PBS, so is un-likely to
be available in video stores.  It's a real shame, it was good.  The
production values were fairly high, and the air of unreality made it
rank up there with the best of the dreamy, surrealistic sort of sf
movie.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 87 10:47:22 PDT
From: PUGH%CCC.MFENET@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Doctor Suess

"The Five Thousand Fingers of Doctor T" is indeed a movie written by
Doctor Suess.  I heartily recommend this flick, wherein the kid has
a nightmare about his piano teacher.  It has excellent performances
by all concerned and is classic Dr. Suess.  One of the most
memorable things about this film is the color of the sets.  Heavy
duty primary colors make it very visually striking.

You may remember the hats Dr. T makes all his slaves (500 of them to
make the 5,000 fingers) wear.  They consist of a blue beanie with a
bright yellow hand sticking up.  Pretty darn silly looking!

As for the SF content, I suspect it was limited to the secret device
the kid and Mr. Zabladowski built to suck up the sound from Dr T's
monster piano.

Kid:    "Is it atomic?"
Mr Z:   "You bet!"

This movie is a laugh a minute.  I give it three stars just for it's
audacity.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 12 Oct 87 21:35:56 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: The Princess Bride, a movie review

THE PRINCESS BRIDE
Rated PG
20th Century Fox

I took my lady fair to see The Princess Bride, Saturday night, and
came away very glad we went.  I want to recommend this movie to all
the Fantasy lovers in the crowd.

The movie works as a double layer, with Peter Falk as a Grandpa
reading a fantasy novel to his sick grandson, intercut with the
story itself.  This works very well, and livens things up, as when
the grandkid interrupts with "Yuk, more kissing.  Is this gonna be
one of those kissing books?" and various other complaints and
bemusements typical of a grouchy sick kid.

The story is one of True Love; the peasant girl for the farm boy; he
heads out in the world and is supposedly killed by pirates, she is
unwillingly bethrothed to a Prince who wants to use her to stir up a
war with a neighboring kingdom.

The story works well for several reasons.  The hero is a real Hero,
unwilling to take a life except to save his lady fair.  The villains
are all real dastards, but their motivations are clear.  There are
really wonderful performances by some of the minor characters, such
as the Spaniard out to revenge his father's murder, or the big
(huge) dumb giant (my favorite).  Lots of scenes work very well, and
the movie doesn't have an off moment (kudos to the editor!);
especially enjoyable are the scenes when the local "miracle worker"
and his wife, each uglier than the other, are arguing about reviving
the near dead hero.

There's enough blood and violence and other scary stuff on the
screen that kids under eight probably shouldn't be taken along, but
for older kids and adults, the chance to leave the theater with
uplifted spirit is well worth the cost of admission.

Check this one out.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 15:42:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: The Princess Bride, a movie review

The book, by William Goldman, has been out for over a decade now.

Goldman is an experienced screenplay writer (Marathon Man, Butch
Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, several others) and wrote the screenplay
for "The Princess Bride".  So, the movie is understandably very
faithful both to the plot and spirit of the book.

My advice to all is: see the movie -- it's great.  Then read the
book -- it's twice as good.  There are more laughs, and important
adventures that couldn't fit into the movie.  Most important, it is
more moving.  The kid listening to the story in the book is Goldman
himself, and his descriptions of how he reacts to it and how it
changes his perspective on life are the most meaningful part in it.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 20:53:11 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!eme@RUTGERS.EDU (XMRP20000[stu]-e.m.eades)
Subject: Re: The Princess Bride, a movie review

My husband saw the movie and then read the book.  He said that
seeing the movie first ruined some of the effect of the book.  I
read the book first (a long time ago) and still enjoyed the movie
immensely.

Beth Eades

------------------------------

Date: 15 Oct 87 20:09:27 GMT
From: ammon@hpscdg.hp.com (Jim Ammon)
Subject: Lensman Video Tape

Has anyone seen a copy of the Video tape "Lensman" around that is in
English and not Japanese?  It's an animated movie based on E. E.
"Doc" Smith's Lensman series and is supposed to be quite good.  I'd
appreciate some feedback on this.

Jim Ammon

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 07:32:44 GMT
From: schubert@jumbo.dec.com (Ann Schubert)
Subject: Lensman animated

   Jim Ammon asks if there is an English version of the Japanese
animated Lensman film. There is existing a subtitled version on
videotape. The translation is good.  The gen copy is not. The movie
currently is available on laserdisk as well as tape but only in
Japanese. The subtitling took place in America. I can provide a
script or work something out thru e-mail to present a screening of
the subtitled version. A screening of the laserdisk itself is also
available and advisible since the computer graphics are quite good.
I believe the people at the NY Institute of Tech.  worked with
Japanese to create the graphics on a Cray. Good stuff.

Ann Schubert
schubert@src.dec.com
schubert%src.dec.com@ucbvax.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 20:49:29 GMT
From: ammon@hpscdg.hp.com (Jim Ammon)
Subject: Re: Lensman animated

I'm very interested in seeing this, just let me know what I have to
do.  Also, what is a gen copy?  I know that San Antonio Hobby Shop
in Mountain View has a Japanese version of the tape for rent, so
maybe an English script would be just fine, but I'd also be
interested in seeing or obtaining the subtitled version.  You
mentioned I should see it on Laser Disk.  Is the resolution better
on the tape?  Let me know.

Thanks much,
Jim  Ammon

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 16:53:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: MAX HEADROOM

It was not very surprising to see that Max Headroom was cancelled.
Besides being in a dreadful timeslot it was against heavy, known to
get good ratings shows.  I have felt that the shows this season have
been a bit weak, but the final episode was one of the better
episodes.  It was slightly disappointing that they had to drag Big
Time Television into the plot again (I wish they could have found
another small local station), but the plot was exciting.  I presume
that the little Max bit at the end of the show was added on after
they knew about the cancellation.  Anybody have anything definite on
that?  Also, does anyone know how many more episodes have been
filmed?  I had thought that ABC had contracted to have at least 13
episodes for this season, but they all must not have been filmed.
Anyone have any info on what will be done with those episodes? I
presume they will show up at some time or another at next to no
notice.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 13:39:49 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!fmsrl7!grazier@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Grazier)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
>does anyone know how many more episodes have been filmed?  I had
>thought that ABC had contracted to have at least 13 episodes for
>this season, but they all must not have been filmed.  Anyone have
>any info on what will be done with those episodes? I presume they
>will show up at some time or another at next to no notice.

Last week the cast of "Max" showed up to work and was told simply to
go home because their show had been cancelled.  At the present time,
there are three completed episodes which have not been aired.  ABC
has "no plans" to air them in the future.

I agree, "no plans" means that sometime next summer, ABC will air an
"ALL-NEW ENCORE EPISODE of MAX HEADROOM" with little or no warning
(a real pain to those of us who tape it religously).

Kevin R. Grazier
Ford Motor Company Scientific Research Labs
Advanced Powertrain Systems & Controls Engineering
uucp: {philabs | pyramid} !fmsrl7!grazier
      grazier@fmsrl7.UUCP
VOICE: (313) 739-7553

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 10:45:42 PDT (Wednesday)
Subject: TV: Beauty And The Beast
From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

With all the hub-bub about Star Trek:NG and the demise of Max
Headroom, could it be possible that everyone has missed the
excellent series "Beauty And The Beast"?

Friday, 8:00pm on CBS.  Give it a try!  George R. R. Martin is
Executive Story Consultant/Editor, and wrote the second (third?)
episode.  The production is lavish without being glitzy.  The
stories are straight ahead romantic fantasy, with a little
action/suspense for spice.  If true love, faith, and compassion make
you quesy, you probably won't like this series, but I'd say try it
out a couple of times anyway.  Just to hear "Vincent's" voice.

Here's a brief synopsis of the "premiere", which gives the
background of the series.  Apologies for inaccuracies, feel free to
correct me.

New York City.  Catherine (played by the actress who played the
heroine in "Terminator" -- can't recall her name at the moment), is
a lawyer in her father's law firm.  She's priveleged, dating a
yuppie real estate tycoon, and chaffing under said yuppie's
possessiveness.

She walks out on a party he was throwing, only to be picked up by
three goons in a van.  They have mistaken her for someone else, a
hooker.  They accuse her of hooking on her own and stiffing her
pimp.  She is beaten up, her face mutilated, and dumped in a ditch
in Central Park.  A large, shadowy form picks her up, and takes her
to a secret city, deep underground, via sewers and abandoned subway
tunnels.

She is treated by the large person's (whose face we have not see
yet) father, who is a physician.  Her face is completely bandaged so
she cannot see.  The large person tells her his name: Vincent.
Vincent cares for her, reads to her.  A bond develops.  Vincent's
father fears the worst.  One evening, while Vincent is feeding
Catherine, she reaches up and touches his hand, and feels fur and
claws!  She recoils.

Weeks pass.  She recovers, and removes her bandages.  She sees
Vincent for the first time, and is horrified.  He appears as a large
man, but with the facial features and mane of a lion, with fangs.
This contrasts with his obvious intelligence, wisdom, and gentle
soul.

Vincent's father warns Vincent not to become attached to Catherine,
since he (Vincent) can never be a part of her world (above).  He
would be feared, or looked upon as a freak.  Only "below", in the
secret city of outcasts and the unwanted, is he safe.

Catherine adjusts, and grows to recognize the bond that has
developed between them.  But she has recovered, and must return to
the world above.  They part in sorrow.

Catherine goes in for plastic surgery.  Her mutilations are
repaired.  She quits from her father's law firm, dumps her yuppie
boyfriend, and gets a job with the DA's office.  She gets martial
arts training (to use the term loosely -- the trainer teaches dirty
New York street fighting) to protect herself.

To make a long story short, Catherine goes after the thugs that beat
her up, gets in trouble and Vincent, who is empathetically linked to
her in such a way that he can always sense her emotions no matter
where she is, comes and saves her.  Now they know that they will
always be linked.

Check it out!  The acting is excellent.  The stories are engaging.
About the only minus is that the background music tends towards
sappy violins.

Commodore Perry
...{decwrl,ucbvax}!xerox.com!caro.osbunorth
caro.osbunorth@xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 01:41:30 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Zigetty <PEU1347@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #450

Real 24-Carat Spoiler......DR. Who (the new series)............

   It was interesting to read the comments on the new ST series and
to realise that I could pass virtually the same comments on the new
series of Dr.  Who which so far has lasted 7 episodes and unless a
rerun of the U.S.-- British war of 1812-14 is desired, will not be
exported.  I gather from sources in the states that Dr.  Who is now
quite big over there so there may be interest in a few observations.
First of all, the lucky foreigners will not have seen the nastiest
t.v.  creation ever i.e.  the bug-eyed screaming Langford (the Dr's
latest assistant) who spends 22.5 minutes of the 25 mi` very
unpleasant falsetto voice.  E.g.  "Hello doctor,
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!".  and similar thespian excesses.....  The
plots are all pretty much reruns of old ideas i.e.  quiet,civilised
alien humans minding their own business in their no-expense-spared
rock quarry in Wales get persecuted by bug-eyed green shaggy things
(with the mAndatory zippers in their backs) or by voluptuous
renegade time-lords who have nothing better to do than rule the
galaxy (and being mean to the locals while being thwarted in their
fiendish plans.

    The latest epic is set in a tower-block with a power-crazed
janitor feeding the residents etc. to what appears to be a large
apricot with a tv antenna. The doctor will of course do something to
the afore-mentioned apricot before it has the good sense to
terminate his wonderfully useful assistant who could faze even the
most suicidal dalek with one brief burst of her formidable vocal
chords.

 Sorry folks, but this new series (and new doctor in the form of a
Mr.  Sylvester McCoy I) deserves its own personal stasis field. In a
more serious vein it has been suggested that the BBC want to get rid
of the series all together so have created a deliberately appalling
return to ensure it will bomb in the ratings............Cynical huh?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #471
Date: 22 Oct 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #471
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Oct 87 0946-EDT
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #471
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 22 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 471

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 15 Oct 87 17:19:44-CDT
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Star Trek Transporters

From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
> I was always under the impression that the transporter exchanged
> two
>  areas of space so that ...
>  a. No attempts at having two objects in the same place
>  b. No explosions as the hole left when an object is transported
>    fills up with air.

I can't buy this: what about when folks are transported to hostile
poisonous environments -- then you'll be replacing the space-suited
explorers with cyanide atmosphere (or whatever?)  The people in the
transporter control room might not appreciate that!

Of course in Star Trek, every planet seems to have a perfectly
breathable atmosphere and no diseases in the air, so maybe this
would be considered safe in the world of Star Trek... :-)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 87 09:11:06 EDT
From: dml@NADC.ARPA (D. Loewenstern)
To: zzassgl@cms.umrcc.ac.uk
Subject: ST Transporters

ZZASSGL writes:
>I was always under the impression that the transporter exchanged
>two areas of space so that ...
>a. No attempts at having two objects in the same place
>b. No explosions as the hole left when an object is transported
>  fills up with air.

If the contents of the two spaces are exchanged, rather than the
spaces themselves, the exchange would have to be in stasis (true
stasis, not just very slow) or else the motion of different
molecules in the SAME object would cause two molecules to occupy the
same space.  For example, imagine a blood corpuscle racing back from
Capt. Kirk's brain.  As the transporter transports part of the
corpuscle, the remainder of the corpuscle moves.  When it, too is
transported, and Kirk is reassembled, the first part of the blood
cell and the second part could be reassembled in the same place.

Actually, the strongest argument in favor of stasis fields for
transporters is the fact that landing parties *look* like they are
frozen in place during the transporter effect.  In the absence of
stasis fields, I would suggest that they are held in place by the
same force that holds phaser energy to the shape of a human outline.
8v)

David Loewenstern
silbert@nadc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 87 11:13 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: How things work

In a recent posting, Tim Abbott scorched those of us that enter into
discussions that try to find 'scientific' explanations for things
that are not explained in a book or movie itself. He goes into
details, but see his original posting for those.

Now I agree with him 100 % on the *facts*, but I don't share his
conclusions in the least. That is because I feel he misses the point
of these discussions completely, the point being that there IS NO
point, and we just do it for the fun of it.

I don't think anybody *needs* an explanation on how Capt. Kirk is
beamed down to continue living. But it is just so very pleasing to
try and find one.  So what if some of our 'explanations' are so much
hogwash ? To point out flaws in other people's theories is even more
fun than making up your own.  (At least, that is the impression I
get when reading SFLOVERS :-) As long as we keep our tongue in
cheek, and don't start taking these silly discussions too seriously,
I can't find anything wrong with them.

Leo Breebaart
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet
Univ. of Leiden
The Netherlands

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 21:36:00 GMT
From: husc6!necntc!frog!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John Woods)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Transporters

From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
> I was always under the impression that the transporter exchanged
> two areas of space so that ...
> a. No attempts at having two objects in the same place
> b. No explosions as the hole left when an object is transported
>    fills up with air.

Beaming NOMAD into outer space (and the two crewmen to whom this
once happened) should have resulted in a lovely bang.  (an
implosion, actually, not an explosion)

The transporter is a plot gimmick, not something you should be
expecting in local hardware stores any day now.  As such, it works
very well (though I was irritated in ST:TNG by the fact that there
was zero delay between people requesting to be beamed up and it
happening, though I *suppose* that the ship's computer could have
answered the call itself...).  Consider that Reiker &c beamed down
from the Starbase ground floor to the basement -- ah, are our poor
little feet killing us?  Can't take the stairs?  No, it saves having
to film them ducking into an elevator shaft and popping back out.

John Woods
Charles River Data Systems
Framingham MA
(617) 626-1101
...!decvax!frog!john
...!mit-eddie!jfw
jfw@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 87 15:02 EST
From: <CJMEYERS%SUNRISE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star-trek Transporters and such..

   Am I being confused here, or doesn't the transporter require the
functioning of the Warp Drive system to operate??

(I can remember, I think, at least one situation where the
transporter did NOT work due to the malfunctioning of the warp drive
[ST:TMP, for one])

Perhaps the drive does touch the two points of space together...and
push whatever is being transported through?

I don't know if this takes care of -all- the problems that have been
griped about here...

Lessee, If the two points of space are touched, and we are moving
matter, does molecular motion even 'matter' ?

Also: in the same vein, if the space/time continum is streched
together, then perhaps time -is- stopped through the transition.

As for the transporter being a line-of-sight device, I don't know
how that can be figured in.  Perhaps it is more a range-of-sight,
(or range-of-energy) kind of thing...

Anyway, Do with it what you will...

Steve Winokur

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 04:37:22 PDT (Monday)
Subject: Stasis Fields (again)
From: "Michael_J_Kean.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM

Why go to all the trouble of pushing a 'Stasisised' spaceship into a
star?  Why not fire a Photon torpedo at the ship (or 10 to be on the
safe side) and leave them to it.  The torpedo will stop when it
enters the stasis field, but once the field is deactivated (however
this is done?), will presumably continue on it's journey to
spaceship destruction.

I'm not to fond of a Stasis field which effects everything within
it.  This means that if the Stasis Generator is within the field it
too will stop, so no field is generated, so the field does not exist
which means the generator can create the field, but..........

To avoid this the generator must be outside the field and hence open
to destruction by the enemy.

I much prefer the idea of a stasis shell, but again just fire your
torpedos at the enemy and wander off.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 09:23 EDT
From: <PORTERG%VCUVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Stasis fields

   People seem to have missed out on how to use stasis fields that
don't last forever.  Since *you* know when you turn it on and off,
you do so for very short periods of time at random intervals.  In
these intervals, you fire your weapons, take sensor readings, etc.,
and it is much less likely that any incoming energy/projectile/etc.
will actually be there at the right time to get through.  Of course,
your ability to maneuver will be curtailed, which makes it more
likely that you/your stasis field will be hit, so it is a
double-edged tactic.
   For further info on this topic, see the _Traveller_ game
supplements on starship combat by Game Designers Workshop.

Greg Porter
PORTERG@VCUVAX (Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 87 17:08:10 -0400
From: new@UDEL.EDU
Subject: Re: Status Fields

As far as I can figure, there are four kinds of possible status
fields:
1) Those that reflect attempts to cross the boundry,
2) Those that allow matter-energy to pass,
3) Those that destroy mattergy (to coin a phrase),
4) Those that keep things inside "frozen", but allow outside
   mattergy to continue on unhindered.

(1) can be seen in Niven's status fields or bobbles (sp?).  I assume
the reflectance is due to the different "densities" of the aether,
and that mattergy bounces off for the same reason that one can see
the sky reflected in a pool of water. There are a few problems with
this: What is the angle of incidence needed for various forms of
matter and energy to get into such a field? What about quantum
effects, specifically when the field is created, do you get a slew
of high-energy particles cut off from their virtual-pair partners?
Why do current authors write about these fields having weight? Do
only the exchange particles for gravity (gravitons) pass the field,
while all other exchange particles are reflected? Would one around
another really cancel the inner field?  Could the generator be
placed inside or outside or either?  Bad idea to enclose a starship
in one of these fields: the enemy can maneuver but always knows
where you are, thus "getting the drop on you".

(2) was described in one of Niven's Gil Hamilton stories. The time
rate inside the field was faster, not slower. Shining a flashlight
on the field from the inside made the light "pile up" and thus
intensify.  Reaching into the field caused your arm to "fall asleep"
or die because the arm was living much faster than the heart was
pumping blood to it.  Note that the area inside such a field can be
considered another frame of reference, and thus changes in the speed
of light as seen from the outside are not a problem.  This form of
field seems to have the fewest problems, relativity-wise; however, I
disclaim understanding of enough of relativity to say it indeed DOES
have fewer problems.  Also a bad idea for starship defence: the
enemy just fires a few dozen photons and you get ambushed when you
come out even if the enemy has left long ago.

(3) I havn't seen any of these in stories. What do I mean by
"destroy"?  Where does the mattergy go?  I don't know.

(4) I mention this due to the long-running debates about the ST
transporter.  Although the new transporters are quite fast, the old
ones are slow enough to allow you to see that the people are
actually "frozen" while being transported. A reasonable explanation
is that the transporter creates a type (4) statis field, and then
scans the body with mattergy that does not get slowed down by the
field.  The only problem with this is "then what?"  If the mattergy
being scanned is "frozen", how do you take it apart?  McCoy had good
reasons for being afraid of the transporter.  After all, if it left
a charred body behind, would YOU use it?  But since it doesn't,
assumedly the same mattergy that made up the transmitee makes up the
transmitted thing. This is reasonable, since Kirk can communicate
through the shields, but can not transport through.  Assumedly,
there is too much energy to NOT get deflected; i.e., we'll let them
talk on EM spectrum, but deflect the high-energy phasers.  The
transported is not just "stepping across" folded space, or you could
not beem "Jack the Ripper" away on "wide dispersion".  It's not
exchanging the two spaces or you would get a "pop" when you beemed
something onto an airless world/starship/etc.

Have I missed any implications of Statis fields? (he said, throwing
another log on the fire...)

Darren New
Computer Science
Univ. of Delaware
new@udel.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue 20 Oct 87 10:58:16 GMT+1
From: WNNROUB%HUTRUU0.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re : Star chunks

In reply to various messages on rec.arts.startrek and CSNEWS@MAINE
concerning star chunks. An expert view.

First of all I'm glad Bruce ZZTong told us he's no astrologer as I
don't think casting a star's horoscope would do it much good.  I am
an astronomer, though, and I can assure you : no solid "chunks" of
star when it collapses. It will shed a large part of it's envelope.
This probably will happen more or less spherically symmetric, but
the expanding envelope may be inhomogenous, containing "blobs".  As
to the collapsing star. Hmm. A mere giant usually does not collapse.
It's interior will, during it's evolution, *contract* and ultimately
a White Dwarf will form. In the process, the outer envelope will
expand. Only in the case of real massive stars, the massive
degenerate core will eventually exceed the Chandrasekhar limit (1.44
M(solar)).  In that case the WD will collapse to form a Neutron
Star. This happens rather sudden and as the inner parts implode, the
outer layers explode.  The result : a Supernova explosion. Boom!!!
However : no chunks of solid material, but gas. If the NS is heavier
than about 2.2 M(solar), it will collapse further to form a Black
Hole.

And now, how about this : our own Sun will (in about 5 billion
years) become a RG and later a WD. We have about 9 planets, scores
of moons and zillions of planetoids, comets etc. I could imagine
that the explosive expansion of the star's envelope (causing
shockwaves in the interplanetary/interstellar medium, which is NOT
empty, as someone on rec.arts.startrek thought), hurled some smaller
planetary bodies from their orbits in the direction of the
Enterprise. OK expert opinion off (I'm a Ph.D. student).

Jacqueline Cote
U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET

BTW In binary scenarios lighter stars may collapse after a
mass-transfer phase.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 13:52:36 GMT
From: uiucdcs!sq!utcsri!tom@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: James Doohan has something to say

James Doohan and William Shatner are both Canadians.  However, Brent
Chapman has stumbled across one of the fundamental differences
between the Canadian and American psyches.  A Canadian can also lay
claim to his pre-New-World heritage without objections from other
Canadians.  Irish-Canadian, Japanese-Canadian, Italian-Canadian, and
so on, are all parts of the multicultural Canadian mosaic.  It's
different than the melting pot approach taken in the States.  Case
in point: a child born to foreign parents in Canada is free to keep
both Canadian and his parents' citizenship all his life; one born to
foreign parents in the States must, under most circumstances,
renounce the foreign citizenship upon reaching the age of majority.
It is the official policy of the Canadian government that Canada
derives its strength and cultural depth from the diversity of its
citizens' backgrounds.  There's even a Federal Ministry of
Multiculturalism to encourage the preservation of and tolerance of
languages and customs brought to Canada by the many, many kinds of
immigrants who have helped build her.  Speaking of Canadians on Star
Trek, by the way, Steve Inhat (Lord Garth of Izar) and Percy
Rodriquez (Commodore Stone) also hailed (past tense: Inhat is dead)
from the Great White North.

Robert J. Sawyer
Toronto, Canada
c/o Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 16:09:30 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  The New (Put preferred noun here)

I don't usually post messages like this...but...

RE:Seeing other races - Can you say BUDGET? I knew you could

Star Trek is a television show, and this has the same limits as all
episodic television shows : time, money and time

Read "The Making of Star Trek" for why we don't see lots of
feathered three-legged aliens.

Enjoy the Ferengi.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 26-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #472
Date: 26 Oct 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #472
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Oct 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #472
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 472

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Nebula Awards Report &
                           Generating Organs (2 msgs) &
                           Book Publishing &
                           Requests (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 04:34:22 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: October 1987 Nebula Awards Report (summary)

This is a summary of the SFWA Nebula Awards Report for October,
1987.  Instead of typing in the entire report (I may do that for the
final report around the end of the year) I'm only going to post the
top ten for each category. I won't include the nominees for each
work. This list is as of October 7, 1987.

Novel (40,000 words or above)

Pamela Sargent: The Shore of Women (Crown) [22]
Gene Wolfe: Soldier of the Mist (Tor) [22]
Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman (Tor) [20]
Philip K. Dick: Radio Free Albemuth (Arbor House) [17]
Michael Swanwick: Vacuum Flowers (Arbor House) [16]
John Crowley: Aegypt (Bantam) [13]
Connie Willis: Lincoln's Dream (Bantam) [13]
David Brin: The Uplift War (Bantam) [13]
George Alec Effinger: When Gravity Fails (Arbor House) [13]
C.S. Friedman: In Conquest Born (Daw) [12]

[editorial comments: two first novels, by Willis and Friedman
(Friedman is a good book) one second novel, by Murphy (GREAT BOOK!
READ THIS BOOK! If I were voting instead of kibbitzing this would
probably get my vote, with the Wolfe book making it a tough choice).
The only book I disagee with is Swanwick, which is the token
Cyberpunk entry. The Watchmen placed 18th so far...166 books got 1
or more votes]

Novella: 17,500-39,999 words

Geoff Ryman: The Unconquered Country (Bantam, novella length book)
   [16]
James Patrick Kelly: Glass Cloud (Asim) [14]
Orson Scott Card: Eye for Eye (Asim) [13]
Kim Stanley Robinson: The Blind Geometer (Asim) [12]
Russel Griffin: Saving Time (F&SF) [12]
Walter Jon Williams: Witness (Wild Cards #1) [8]
Michael flynn: The Forest of time (analog) [7]
Harry Turtledove: Superwine (Asim) [7]
Elizabeth Moon: A Delicate Adjustment (Analog) [6]
Robert Silverberg: The Secret Sharer (Asim) [5]

[30 titles nominated]

Novelette: 17,499 - 7,500 words

Pat Murphy: Rachel in Love (Asim) [34]
Bruce McCallister: Dream Baby (Asim) [19]
Walter Jon Williams: Dinosaurs (Asim) [18]
Neal Barett, Jr.: Perpetuity Blues (Asim) [18]
Orson Scott Card: America (Asim) [17]
Bruce Sterling: Flowers of Edo (Asim) [17]
Wayne Wightman: Cage 37 (F&SF) [16]
Lucius Shepard: The Sun Spider (Asim) [14]
Jack McDevitt: Dutchman (Asim) [13]
Kim Stanley Robinson: The Return from Rainbow Ridge (Asim) [12]

[105 titles nominated]

Short Story: under 7,500 words

Pat Cadigan: Angel (Asim) [21]
Karen Joy Fowler: The Faithful Companion at Forty (Asim) [18]
Lisa Goldstein: Cassandra's Photographs (Asim) [15]
Lucius Shepard: The Glassblower's Dragon (F&SF) [14]
Augustine Funnell: MAxie Silas (F&SF) [13]
Susan Shwartz: Temple to a Minor Goddess (Amazing) [12]
George Zebrowski: This Life and Later Ones (Analog) [12]
Lawrence Watt-Evans: Why I left Harry's All-night Hamburgers (Asim)
   [11]
Jonathan Carroll: Friend's Best Man (F&SF) [10]
Dean Whitlock: The Million-Dollar Wound (F&SF) [10]
James P. Blaylock: Myron Chester and the Toads (Asim) [10]
Brad Strickland: "Oh Tin Man, Tin Man there's No Place Like Home"
   (F&SF) [10]

[somewhere around 200 titles nominated, I didn't count....]

[The total domination of the shorter awards by Asimov's continues.
Gardner Dozois is doing SOMETHING right....

And, speaking of Cyberpunk, if it is the wave of the future, where
are the award nominations? None of the major cyberpunk authors are
represented in any of the categories to any extent. Is the cyberpunk
fad fading already?  Film at 11...]

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 16:26:16 GMT
From: leech@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Flight of the Dragonfly

KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes:
>> where one of the aliens (they are called Flouwen) creates an eye
>> out of his own protoplasm.
>This isn't original with him.  Does anyone know where it was first
>used?

    The first time I can think of is Doc Smith's
_Skylark_of_Valeron_, where the evil amoebic Chlorans have this
capability. In addition to being a fine space opera, it has the
memorable line "...humanity \fIuber alles\fR, against all the vermin
of the universe!".

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 13:30:15 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60RC)
Subject: Re: Flight of the Dragonfly

leech@unc.UUCP (Jonathan Leech) writes:
>KFL@AI.AI.MIT.EDU writes:
>>> where one of the aliens (they are called Flouwen) creates an eye
>>> out of his own protoplasm.
>>This isn't original with him. Does anyone know where it was
>>first used?
>
>    The first time I can think of is Doc Smith's
>_Skylark_of_Valeron_, where the evil amoebic Chlorans have this
>capability.

This still isn't the first use.  As I remember, _Skylark of Valeron_
was pubished in the early to mid 60's.  In _Needle_ by Hal Clement
(early 50's) the symbiont uses this technique when he is occupying
the shark.

One interesting thing about _Needle_ is that there is nothing in the
book which pins it down to any time more specific than the mid to
late 20th century.  I first read it sometime in 70's when the energy
crisis was happening and it seemed quite relevant.  It wasn't until
I read the sequel (_Through the Eye of a Needle_) that I found out
that it really occurred (and was written) in the early 50's.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 21:57:10 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!usl!usl-pc!jpdres10@RUTGERS.EDU (Green Eric Lee)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker

farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) says:
>maximum profit, which would you choose: a book of high quality,
>which may well be too "difficult" for half of your market, or a
>piece of entertaining fluff that will offend only those who care
>about quality, and sell to the rest?  Sad to say, the profit motive
>has overrun SF publishing, and it's a damn shame.
>
>You want proof?  Look at Bill Gibson, Kim Stanley Robinson, Lucius
>Shepard, and the rest of the newest New Wave of SF authors, and
>then look at how long it took them to get books published.  Sure,
>NOW everyone says things

I read Kim Stanley Robinson's first book ("The Wild Shore"). Based
on that, I don't think that the problem with getting it published
was crass commercialism.  Rather, while the book shows potential, it
IS quite flawed in a number of ways, mostly due to Robinson's
immaturity as an author. Let's face it, you don't just sit down and
write The Great American Novel...

Science fiction houses are, of course, concerned about their
profits.  After all, without profits, they're out of business. But I
don't see too much emphasis on boring consistency, either. Most
people don't go to a book store just to get another shoot'em'up
space opera or yet another "quest" novel with buxom wench in brass
bikini on front conver ;-)... and if you look at what sells, you'll
see that few of the best-sellers can be shoved into any particular
cubbyhole (except for "it's by old-guard legend xyz", but most of
the old guard got that way because they didn't fall into the pit of
churning out dozens of pulp novels that all read the same).

<warning: Pet peeve number 64738 ahead:>

   There is still money in good literature, as long as you don't
fall prey to the New Yorker Syndrome ("if it's verbose, has
20-syllable words, and 50-line paragraphs, it's literature, else,
it's popular pulp trash"). That's one of my pet peeves with several
of the "literary" science fiction authors. I'd prefer if they'd
write in English instead of "literaturese" (I tend to end up gasping
for breath by the time I end up at the finish of a typical Wolfe
paragraph :-).  It's not that I'm incapable of reading it. But
rather, it takes an aweful lot of effort to yank the meaning out of
all that jumble, for no appreciable gain over a more readable style.

There's cases where such a style is obviously useful. For example,
our protagonist, when presented with something the implications of
which are shocking, horrifying, or simply outside his ability to
comprehend or understand, may lapse incoherent and confused, his
words jumping about the author's landscape like frightened
jackrabbits in search of shelter. But when the whole book is written
like that, it tends to make me question the AUTHOR'S mental state
when he wrote the book :-).

Eric Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{ihnp4,cbosgd}!killer!elg
{ut-sally,killer}!usl!elg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 87 1:48:46 PDT
From: gruber.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Wanted:  Your Favorite Books that...

   Here are some categories to prompt book recommendations.  Send
responses to me only (Gruber.PA@Xerox.Com) and I will compile a
summary of responses.  If your response includes some discussion
(and is interesting :->) you might want to post it instead.

   Name some of your *favorite* SF books that:

      * Have interesting robots or androids
      * Deal with utopias or anti-utopias
      * Have an unusual treatment of ai, computers,
        or other high-tech inspirations (includes cyberpunk books)
      * Have some of your *favorite* aliens in them
      * Are hard-science stories which impressed you
        with the care taken to be accurate
      * The author (seemed to have) spent gobs of time
        working out a novel/alien society/culture/environment
      * You just had to keep reading *even though* you
        were tired&sick and should have been sleeping
        and it made you even sicker afterwards -- but
        it was still worth it!
      * Are incredibly *funny* or incredibly *bizarre*

If anyone wants to add categories, feel free... I volunteer to
collect recommendations for those as well.  Make sure the category
is fairly specific (e.g. I used "books with some of your *favorite*
aliens" rather than "books with aliens") otherwise there will be too
many books that fit the category and I will be swamped.  Very
strange categories would be the most fun.

Remember, I am not just looking for books that just fit the
categories...  I'm looking for books you *really* enjoyed reading.
Short (very short) descriptions of the books would also be real
useful.  General author recommendations are OK but less useful.

Thanks!

Bob Gruber
Gruber.PA@Xerox.Com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1987  09:58 EDT
From: ELIZABETH%OZ.AI.MIT.EDU@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU
Subject: classic fantasy, and a lazy woman's request, and two PS's

After looking in a lackadaisical way for years, I found the old
Ballantine Fantasy reprints of THE WELL AT THE WORLD'S END by
William Morris and read them.  This story gets my nomination as #1
all-time best in fantasy.  I have never seen, anywhere, such a
sensitive and realistic treatment of found, lost, and found-anew
love, such marvelously real, but allegorical too, characters.  It
goes on the shelf next to other Ballantine Fantasy winners and will
come down to be reread again and again.  No arguments, please,
unless you've read it.

Question 1: Does anyone have a complete list of the Ballantine
Classic Fantasy reprints?  Lin Carter seems to have been the editor
for the whole series.  I've gotten into the habit of buying them
instantly wherever I see them.  Problem is, there aren't that many
around: if you have any you'd like to sell or pass on, I'm
interested.  But understandably people who have them tend to hang
onto them.

Question 2: I'd like to get Morris's books, as well as books by
other nineteenth/early twentieth-century fantasy authors (e.g.
Eddison, Dunsany, Cabell), in hardcover.  Are any in print now?
When were they last reprinted?  (Related ?: what are the odds of
actually turning one up at a price I can afford through a search
service?)  Has Dover books done a rash of these?

Question 3: I realize this is vague, but I'm only starting to get
stuck into this particular era/genre, and am not entirely sure what
it has to offer (should I be looking at Ruskin?  at Lang?).  Is
there anywhere a good book, or a few good books, about this
"movement," and what is it called, if anything?  I've run across
books about Morris that seem to deal largely with his influence on
decorative arts, but nothing primarily about his writing.

I know I could find a lot of this stuff in a library, but I don't
have access to any good libraries right now (except, of course, the
Boston Public: fellow Boston-area residents---should I look there?).
I have read a lot of Dunsany, Cabell, and Lovecraft (I did at one
time spend hours prowling around a really good library full of great
old books) already, and though I wouldn't mind rereading them, I'd
like some new stuff too.  I thought that Dunsany's book about the
village which reverts to paganistic practices [sorry, forget title;
main character was the vicar who tried to oppose this reversion] was
a key for understanding this group of writers as a whole; am I
right?  Was this all some sort of back-to-nature trend??

Help!  Reply directly to me if possible, please.

Elizabeth Willey
elizabeth%oz.ai.mit.edu@xx.lcs.mit.edu
eliz@ai.ai.mit.edu

PS: For the record, I think (Piers Anthony/Jack Chalker/Terry
Brooks) [bleep]s, and that he is a shining example of what is wrong
with the modern marketroid-controlled publishing industry [as
opposed to an editor-controlled publishing industry]...which only
caters, after all, to the few members of the public who read more
than one book a year, if that.  It is this which produces lifeless
books like GOD-EMPEROR OF RIVERWORLD/THE NUMBER OF THE CAT WHO
SAILED BEYOND THE SUNSET/FOOBAR IN SOME D&D/SCA/CELTIC SCENARIO.
Sneer.

PPS: For the record, I think Saul Jaffe does a good job on
SF-LOVERS.  Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 22 Oct 87 10:57:28-EDT
From: Twila Oxley Price <TOP@SEED.AMS.COM>
Subject: Fifties fiction

I'm trying to trace the first sf novel I can remember reading.  I
know it was in 1958 or 1959, and I remember the plot, but I don't
know the author or title.  The basic plot was very similar to
_Needle_ by Hal Clement, in that the aliens were symbiotic and could
live within a brain.  The criminal alien had taken over both the
American and Russian moonbases, and was forcing the astronauts to
build it another spaceship.  The good alien had been living in the
protagonist's dog and moved into his head when he was sent to
investigate the strange happenings on the moon. There was a lot of
"red menace" hoopla (a la McCarthy) as a subplot.  If this sounds
familiar to anyone, I'd appreciate hearing about it.  Thanks.

top@seed.ams.com.#internet

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 19:45:12 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Story Title Request

Many years ago (20?) I read what I think was a long short-story or a
novella. The story line was that a soldier (named Had, I think) at
the front line was getting leave.  As Had traveled away from the
front, things seemed to change - his name went from Had to Hadolaris
to Hadolarison to ..... time seemed to be compacted somehow such
that several years of leave in the country where his name was 20+
characters long was only a few minutes at the front.

I remember, also that there was some speculation by the soldiers
that there wasn't any enemy at all - that their own weapons were
being "bent" back to them by the (asymptotic?) limit of time
distortion in that direction.

Anyone remember this one?

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
Data Management Group, San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 26-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #473
Date: 26 Oct 87 0942-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #473
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Oct 87 0942-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #473
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 473

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Conventions (8 msgs) &
                               What is SF & World Building &
                               Plagiarism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 03:09:55 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Convention list for November

[I went through the con lists in Analog and Asimov's, distilled
them, and got this list. Hope it's useful. ..billw]

Third International Laser Science Conference
        When: November 1-5
       Where: Atlantic City, NJ
     Contact: A.P.S.
              35 East 45th Street
              New York, NY 10017

WindyCon
        When: November 6-8
       Where: Chicago, IL
        What: Chicago's big yearly con
     Contact: WindyCon
              Box 432
              Chicago, IL 60690

Not-So-IttyBittyCon
        When: November 7
       Where: Texas A&M University
              College Station, TX
        What: A Star Trek con
       Guest: Gene Roddenberry
     Contact: MSC Cepheid Variable
              Box J-1, Memorial Student Center
              Texas A&M University
              College Station, TX 77844
              +1 409 845 1515

Bash '87
        When: November 7-8
       Where: Hyatt Regency Hotel
              Boston, MA
        What: Boston area Star Trek con
     Contact: The Bash '87
              Box 6838
              Broad and Water Post Office
              Boston, MA 02102

PhilCon '87
        When: November 13-15
       Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
              Philadelphia, PA
        What: 51st annual Philadelphia SF conference
     Contact: PhilCon
              Box 8303
              Philadelphia, PA 19101

EarthCon IV
        When: November 13-15
       Where: Holiday Inn Westlake
              Cleveland, OH
        What: multi-media con
       Guest: Jim Young (fan guest of honor)
     Contact: EarthCon IV (include a SASE)
              Box 5641
              Cleveland, OH 44101

Dallas Fantasy Fair
        When: November 13-15
       Where: Dallas, TX
        What: media-oriented conference
     Contact: Bulldog Productions
              Box 820488
              Dallas, TX 75382
              +1 214 349 3367

SmofCon IV
        When: November 20-22
       Where: Quality Inn
              Columbus, OH
        What: Convention for con organizers and managers. The
              emphasis and theme of SmofCon IV will be "regional
              conventions".
     Contact: FANACO, Inc
              c/o Liz Gross
              376 Colonial Avenue
              Worthington, OH 43085

LosCon XIV
        When: November 27-29
       Where: Hilton Hotel
              Pasadena, CA
        What: Los Angeles area SF con
      Guests: C.J. Cherryh (guest of honor), Tom Whitmore (fan guest
              of honor)
     Contact: LASFS
              11513 Burbank Boulevard
              North Hollywood, CA 91061
              +1 818 760 9234

Darkover Grand Council Meeting 10
        When: November 27-29
       Where: Radisson Hotel
              Wilmington, DE
        What: SF con oriented towards the works of Marion Zimmer
              Bradley and other writers of similar fiction, feminism,
              and the occult [phew, what a mouthful! ..billw]
     Contact: Darkover Grand Council Meeting
              Box 8113
              Silver Spring, MD 20907

Bill Wisner
..ihnp4!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 05:45:50 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: Convention list for November

billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>PhilCon '87
>        When: November 13-15
>       Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
>              Philadelphia, PA
>        What: 51st annual Philadelphia SF conference
>     Contact: PhilCon
>              Box 8303
>              Philadelphia, PA 19101

   Is anybody on the net going to PhilCon this November?  It would
be interesting to compile a list of net people who are attending.
If there are enough people, perchance we may have a small @ party!
In terms of plans for PhilCon, I intend to devote a lot of time
seeking out Japanese animation stuff (which I hope will exist at the
con).

   Please, no request for crash spaces.  I don't have a room of my
own either!

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:   {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
ARPA:   cbmvax!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.rutgers.edu
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 14:12:12 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Convention list for November

hirai@swatsun.UUCP (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>>PhilCon '87
>>        When: November 13-15
>>       Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
>>              Philadelphia, PA
>>        What: 51st annual Philadelphia SF conference
>>     Contact: PhilCon
>>              Box 8303
>>              Philadelphia, PA 19101
>
>       Is anybody on the net going to PhilCon this November?

As a matter of fact...

You will get the opportunity to see me make a fool of myself on
stage in the South of NYC premiere of "1996", a musical takeoff of
"1776" using the members of SFWA as characters (Harlan=Adams,
Isaac=Franklin, Spider=Jefferson).  Not only do I play Harlan (I'm
too tall, but tough) but I wrote the thing (that's how I got to be
Harlan :-)).

Volunteers to play the misc. members of SFWA will be needed.
Rehearsal times will be posted at the con.

I don't have crash space either.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 13:05:31 GMT
From: luce@sundance.steinmetz (eric j luce)
Subject: Re: Convention list for November

hirai@swatsun.UUCP (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>   Is anybody on the net going to PhilCon this November?  It would
>be interesting to compile a list of net people who are attending.
>If there are enough people, perchance we may have a small @ party!
>In terms of plans for PhilCon, I intend to devote a lot of time
>seeking out Japanese animation stuff (which I hope will exist at
>the con).

Ho ho!  I shall be going to Philcon this year, AG.  I may finally
get to meet you, which would be interesting to say the least.
Philcon is where I first saw Urusei Yatsura (in the form of
"Beautiful Dreamer" (What a way to get started.))  I shall be
bringing along one of my VCR's and attempting to set up a viewing,
or find someone else who is doing viewings (at least one other group
of people will be, that I know of.)  As to parties.. look for signs
of either the frob mob or Generic Fandom.. since only a token amount
of Generic Fandom is going to Boskone, Lunacon and Philcon are where
we are going to concentrate our Chocolate Party (voted most
delicious party at Boskone two years ago..)

internet:       scanner%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu (or luce@ge-crd.arpa)
bitnet:         useretta@rpitsmts.bitnet
UUCP:           ..!seimso!itsgw!brazil!scanner

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 87 19:16:15 GMT
From: dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Dave Montuori)
Subject: Re: Convention list for November

The lists of cons from Analog and Asimov's are far from complete at
this time of year, when so many cons are being held that the mags
can't list 'em all. Therefore, since the con I'm attending in 3
weeks wasn't on the list, here's the poop on:

SCI CON 9

When: Nov. 6-8
Where: The Sheraton Beach Inn
       36th Street at the Oceanfront
       Virginia Beach, VA

       Phone: (804) 425-9000 for hotel reservations.

GoH: Larry Niven
Regular attendees include (Frank) Kelly Freas, Phil Foglio, Colleen
Doran, Allen Wold, and other luminaries from the DC-VA-NC area.

Events include a costume contest, and a sketch-a-thon, where several
artists sketch their ideas of topics suggested by the audience; the
sketches are then sold at auction to benefit a charitable SF-related
cause.

If any netters come to Sci Con, I'd like to meet them; look for the
announcement on the bulletin board with large symbols @%! .

Dave Montuori
dam@uvacs.cs.virginia.EDU
#damont@wmmvs.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 20:23:46 GMT
From: 6057053@pucc.princeton.edu (Andrew Berman)
Subject: Re: Convention list for November

luce@sundance.steinmetz (eric j luce) writes:
>hirai@swatsun.UUCP (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>>       Is anybody on the net going to PhilCon this November?  It
>>would be interesting to compile a list of net people who are
>>attending.  If there are enough people, perchance we may have a
>>small @ party!

I shall also be attending Philcon, along with aprox 20 other
Princeton people.  I hear that Roberta Rogow will be in attendance
as well, so there should be no shartage of Star Trek/Media/Filking
zines.  Does anyone know if Claire Myer will show up again?

BTW, how many people out there will be attending Darkover con on
Thanksgiving weekend?

HAROLD FELD
BITNET: 6103014@PUCC
UUCP: ...ALLEGRA!PSUVAX1!PUCC.BITNET!6103014

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 02:38:00 GMT
From: dalenber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Convention list for November

> WindyCon
>         When: November 6-8
>        Where: Chicago, IL
>         What: Chicago's big yearly con
>      Contact: WindyCon
>               Box 432
>               Chicago, IL 60690

Any plans for an "@" party, get-together, or whatever at Windycon?
The big day is fast approaching.

Russel Dalenberg
UUCP:   {pur-ee,convex,ihnp4}!uiucdcs!dalenber
ARPA:   dalenber@p.cs.uiuc.edu
CSNET:  dalenber@UIUC.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 12:17:00 EDT
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: PHILCON '87 - SILVERBERG & ZAHN

I just sent in my registration for PHILCON '87.  It is Nov 13,14,15
@ the Adam's Mark Hotel.  The contact address is P.O. Box 8303 -
Philadelphia, PA 19101.  The guests are Robert Silverberg (principal
speaker), Tim Hildebrandt (guest artist), with Timothy Zahn (special
guest).
   Any of you going?  It would be interesting to see some of the
faces behind the postings I've been reading.
   Anyone have some comments on Silverberg and Zahn?  I recently
went to the library to find something by Zahn and picked out A
COMING OF AGE.  It was a fun and exciting read.  The background is
that it takes places in the future on some colonized world.  People
have developed psi-powers.  These powers manifest themselves in
early youth and then stop once a person reaches teenage.  There are
a few parallel storylines going on which converge at various places.
It kept me interested and turning the page.
   The latest Silverberg that I've read are his Majipoor books which
I found quite entertaining.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@UMCINCOM
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 12:21:02 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: S.D.Taylor <CEC1580@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #449

   My idea of SF is any fiction ,other than that dealing strictly
with what we know scientifically ,which speculates (about the past
present or future) about what might be possible scientifically : it
imagines future science. In it, everything tends to adhere to basic
laws of causuallity and logic : everything happens the same way in
the same circumstances ,and things change according to set physical
laws. In a fantasy world ,the laws of magic reign supreme ,and
totally illogical events happen, if not regularly, then not rarely.
HOWEVER : if a novel depicts a fantasy world which is some kind of
'parallel universe' and it describes how the basic physical laws are
different in this other world, then that novel is best described as
SF : Fantasy novels don't explain how a magician casts his spells,
and how a 10 stone man can be changed into a small frog and still
retain his intellect ; a SF novel explains everything (well, most
things).
   Incidentally ,does anyone out there have any theories on how
Psionic powers might operate ? I'd be grateful to hear your ideas :
presently I'm thinking it might involve some form of presently
undiscovered elementary particle or force carrier that can interact
somehow with the brain.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 05:53:00 GMT
From: uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: World Building

Larger conventions often have panels on world-building. Worldcons
sometimes have a separate track for world-building panels, something
like one or two hour-long sessions per day.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 18:38:43 GMT
From: imcc@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Ian McCord)
Subject: Re: Fionavar Tapestry : plagarism ?

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>>Continuing my earlier posting, when I read to the end of TWF, I
>>found the reference to Cader Sedat (?) being the center of all
>>things. Sounds like the Primal Pattern of Amber to me.
>
>This is wrong by even the wildest stretch of the imagination; Caer
>Sedat, the Spiralling Place, is merely an island that exists in all
>worlds.  It is not a static force for order in the universe that
>was created by by some kind of demigod (i.e. Dworkin in Amber).  I
>don't see why you keep drawing these Amber inferences from TFT,
>there are none!  It draws heavily on Celtic mythology, not
>Zelazny.  You can draw a few parallels, but they are *very*
>stretched (e.g. the Tapestry & the Jewel of Judgement, the Andain
>and Amberites/Chaos Lords).  TFT is much better than the Amber
>stuff that Zelazny does.

Probably the wrong place to start this, but :-

Zelazny bases most if not all of his fiction the mythology of
various cultures. I personally enjoy this type of fiction and like
reading him.  However I am fairly certain that the original writers
of his sources are long dead and the copyright long lapsed. I doubt
that he is the first to use this technique, and he probably won't be
the last. Just because he has based a story on a certain myth or
even historical event doesn't mean he has ownership to that source.
If Amber and TFT have similarities then it is perhaps due to the
source from which they derived. Not having read TFT I can't say that
this is definite in this instance.

Perhaps a more usual case for this type of argument is Tolkien.
Tolkien's intended to write an archetypal story based on myth. That
Lord of The Rings is taken as a definitive text shows his success.
Probably every fantasy novel involving a quest can be compared to
LOTR, but that doesn't mean a deliberate attempt at plagiarism is
taking place.

Not knowing mutch psychology I can only say that Jungian Theory may
be responsible for the similarity of so many characters in different
author's works. Most racist humor depends on its impact on
stereotypes, what's your impression of a jew, arab, polak, feminist,
etc. In fiction the bit parts will probably be percieved as
conforming to stereotypes. The major characters should have room to
show their own personality through action and what they say. If the
only impression you have of a character is a stereotype then the
author is failing to do his/her job. (unless the character is meant
to be that way)

I conclude by proposing that the final opinion of a book must be
how well the author has told the story. I.e did you enjoy reading
it. I must admit that being first to tell a particular story helps.
Where two authors use the same sources for inspiration the resulting
stories are going to be similar. You may find this an aid in
criticism, allowing comparison. Then again I do hate buying the same
story twice.

Iain McCord

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 26-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #474
Date: 26 Oct 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #474
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 26 Oct 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #474
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 26 Oct 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 474

Today's Topics:

                Books - Asimov & Bester & Brunner &
                        Carlsen (2 msgs) & Delaney &
                        Donaldson & Feist & Ford (2 msgs) &
                        Gerrold (3 msgs) & Haldeman &
                        Kingsbury & Leiber &
                        Heroes in Hell

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 16:26:44 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Asimov query: privacy invader

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (M S Schiffer) writes:
> The story was called "The Dead Past", although I can't remember
> the anthologies.  I think it appeared in _The Arbor House Book of
> Great Science Fiction Short Novels_ but I'm not certain.

This story appeared in Asimov's collection of his short stories
called EARTH IS ROOM ENOUGH.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 23:41:06 GMT
From: hao!ico!ism780c!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester

gallmeis@unc.UUCP (Bill O. Gallmeister) writes:
>On second thought, read everything Alfred Bester wrote.

You can skip Golem 100.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 87 01:29:05 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!psu-cs!qiclab!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard
From: Erickson)
Subject: Re: Anyone know... Brunner time machine report??

From: Martin Feather <FEATHER@vaxa.isi.edu>
>I seem to remember a vague reference some years back in SF-LOVERS
>to something by John Brunner characterized as a "consumers' report"
>on time machines.

Well, it originally appeared in Galaxy magazine in 1965. Or you can
try looking for a collection called "Time-Jump" published by Dell
back 1973.

The collection includes _three_ "Galactic Consumer Reports"
(inexpensive time machines, automatic twin-tube wishing machines,
and "A Survey of the Membership")

Leonard Erickson
...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!qiclab!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 06:32:42 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Title wanted: Carlsen book

   I'm trying to find a book (which I'm not even sure *exists* but
since it would be #3 in a *numbered* series if it does exist, I'll
assume *that it does* unless proven false).  (My experience has been
that if they come with *numbers* they generally go on & on :)

   A few years ago (ten?) I noticed a British paperback (Sphere)
fantasy featuring a Viking berserker (that was the series title:
_Berserker_ not to be confused with Saberhagen's berserkers or Poul
Anderson's _Viking_ trilogy) who was haunted by the Norse God Odin,
and while under the influence uncontrollably murderous, treacherous,
vile, etc, the essential werewolf mythos (an intr'estin thought:
bear god into wolf? ).  The protagonist generally mucks up, ruins
his love life (who'd want this guy for a mate?), slaughters his
family (sounds familiar, reminds me of several Icelandic sagas) and
finds release only at the end, in death.  But, here's the
interesting twist, in volume two, he is re- incarnated, backwards in
time a century or two, still haunted by Ol' Bear-face.  (To shorten
this, one is led to believe that by volume three he will be even
further back in time, still in the same mess.)  The first book is
titled _Shadow of the Wolf_ while its sequel is _The Bull Chief_ (my
Sphere paperbacks are both dated 1977).

   I wasn't expecting much when I first picked this up, but it made
enough of an impression to lead me to seek the (possibly
non-existent) third volume.  Someone down at one of our local sf
outlets in NYC mentioned the existence of a third book, but couldn't
tell me the title.

   The author's name is given as Chris Carlsen, I assume he's
British, and know nothing else except that the books are extremely
rare here in The States.  (No, I don't buy my British paperbacks in
Britain :)

   Any help appreciated.  Thanx.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 12:16:34 GMT
From: jaffe@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Saul)
Subject: Re: Title wanted: Carlsen book

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
>       I'm trying to find a book (which I'm not even sure *exists*
> but since it would be #3 in a *numbered* series if it does exist,
> I'll assume *that it does* unless proven false).  (My experience has
> been that if they come with *numbers* they generally go on & on :)
>[book description deleted]
>       The author's name is given as Chris Carlsen, I assume he's
> British, and know nothing else except that the books are extremely
> rare here in The States.  (No, I don't buy my British paperbacks in
> Britain :)

I don't know the book you are looking for, but I do know that Chris
Carlsen is a pseudonym for Robert Holdstock.  Perhaps this will help
you locate the book.

Saul Jaffe
Rutgers University
ARPA: Jaffe@elbereth.rutgers.edu
UUCP: ...!rutgers!elbereth.rutgers.edu!jaffe

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 23:54:34 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!lewando@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Lewandoski)
Subject: Latest Delaney

I was just in the bookstore "Forbidden PLanet" and saw the hardcover
jacket to the apparently next Delaney book, title was something like
_Bridge of Lost Desire_ with a sub of "A Fantasy by Samual Delaney".
It didn't look like the 2nd half of _Stars in my Pockets like Grains
of Sand_.

I wonder what happened to that one.

Mark Lewandoski

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 21:21:25 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: The Mirror of Her Dreams by Stephen Donaldson

Was anybody else struck by the fact that he has merely substituted
one irritating background whine for another?  Covenant has a
constant whiney subtext of "I'm a leper, I don't believe this, I'm a
leper, I don't believe this..." ad nauseam.  In MoHD, he merely
substitutes the whine of "I'm a helpless little girl, but I really
should do something, I'm a helpless little girl, but I really should
do something...".

Oh well... that's something that didn't improve: irritating
protagonist, hard to sympathize with.  But I find the plot and
storyline more engaging here than in The Land.  I found myself
reading it eagerly, rather than just ploughing through the thing for
the sake of finishing.

Anybody have different impression of the thing?

Also, I have the impression this was pointed out before and I'm just
not remembering, but... how long do I have to wait for the paperback
of A Man Rides Through?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 87 16:49:27 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker (and other target practice favorites)

pwh@cs.nott.ac.uk (Paul William Harvey) writes:
>   BTW in another posting someone mentioned there being five books
> set in this world / these worlds, this has got me foxed. I know
> about Magician, Silverthorn, A Darkness at Sethanon and Daughter
> of Empire so what's the fifth one called and is it available on
> this side of the pond?

The first book, _Magician_ in hardback, was two books in
paperback--if I recall correctly, _Magician: Apprentice_ and
_Magician: Master_-- corresponding to the two parts of the hardback
edition.

I read _Magician_ about a year ago, and remembered liking it
somewhat, but now that I'm trying to start reading _Silverthorn_ I
find that I can't even remember most of the setting and little
details from the first books.  (I had borrowed the hardback from a
friend and don't have access to it now.)  I remember having some
complaints about his style, but I don't remember what they were.
(How's that for vague?)

nj
...!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 04:49:04 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET

I read in bed, and its just "a pallet on my floor", but I still
narrowly avoided injury from falling out, I laughed so hard reading
this book.

Reward Mr. Ford for a fine piece of humor writing and a great send
up of all your favorite star trek characters.  Buy his book.  You
won't regret it, though I can't take responsibility if you read it
in the tub and drown from a severe case of the giggles.

I'll never be able to look at a tuxedo or a blueberry pie with a
straight face again.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 00:29:57 GMT
From: gibson@dopey.cs.unc.edu (bilL 13 gibsoN)
Subject: (author of) HOW MUCH FOR JUST THE PLANET

spencer@ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu (The Parrothead) writes:
>Thanks for all the replies, I now know who wrote this book and
>where I can find it. (John Ford, and it's a new Star Trek book.)

Is this the John Ford of "Web of Angels"?

Bill
gibson@unc.cs.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 01:54:08 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!milo@RUTGERS.EDU (Greg Corson)
Subject: Looking for David Gerrold

I am trying to find an address where I can contact David Gerrold, a
science fiction writer who, I believe, is currently working on Star
Trek-The Next Generation in some capacity.  I've talked to him on
several occasions in the past, but when I tried to call him recently
I found his phone number had been changed, I assume his home address
and PO Box have also been changed since I talked to him last
(several years ago).

If anyone out there has a mailing address of any kind where I might
be able to reach David, please let me know.  A business address,
magazine address, publisher's address, agent's address or a mailing
address for the Star Trek production company would fine.

If, by chance, there is someone out there who knows David
personally, please give him my phone number (listed below)...he will
probably remember me as the person who, many years ago, got him a
copy of "Malcolm's D&D program" for his North Star Horizon.

Thanks in advance for your help
Greg Corson
19141 Summers Drive
South Bend, IN 46637
(219) 277-5306 (weekdays till 6pm central)

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 17:05:40 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Looking for David Gerrold

>I am trying to find an address where I can contact David Gerrold, a
>science fiction writer who, I believe, is currently working on Star
>Trek-The Next Generaton in some capacity.

He left ST:TNG some months ago, actually, but...

>If anyone out there has a mailing address of any kind where I might
>be able to reach David, please let me know.  A business address,
>magazine address, publisher's address, agent's address or a mailing
>address for the Star Trek production company would fine.

Gerrold isn't in the SFWA, so I don't have his agents name. He does
have a book out through Walker & Company, 720 Fifth Avenue, New
York, NY 10019, and you can mail to him C/O them (the book, by the
way, is "Chess with a Dragon" and I doubt many of you knew THAT one
existed....)

Another alternative is that he does (did? I haven't read it for a
while) writes a column for STarlog magazine, and you can mail to him
C/O them.

As a last resort, you can mail the letter to Locus magazine, and
they will put the adress on it and forward it along (as long as they
don't get too many of these, they say). For an author I know how to
contact (David isn't one of them, currently) you could do the same
through OtherRealms. Check with me first.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 87 16:47:49 GMT
From: eli@LF-SERVER-2.BBN.COM (Steve Elias)
Subject: Re: Looking for David Gerrold

milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes:
>I am trying to find an address where I can contact David Gerrold

David has a CompuServe account and is active in some of the Forums
over there.  Post a message in a couple of Compuserve Forums asking
for him, and he will probably answer you personally.  I wrote him a
few emails about 6 months ago, but I've lost his CIS account number.

I believe you can look people up by name on Compuserve, now, btw.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 13:10:04 GMT
From: news@zeus.tek.com (Network News daemon)
Subject: Re: Status Fields

Darren New writes:
>As far as I can figure, there are four kinds of possible stasis
>fields:
>1) Those that reflect attempts to cross the boundry,
>2) Those that allow matter-energy to pass,
>3) Those that destroy mattergy (to coin a phrase),
>4) Those that keep things inside "frozen", but allow outside
>   mattergy to continue on unhindered.

From: dant@tekla.TEK.COM (Dan Tilque)

This may not belong in any of the above categories, but Joe Haldeman
had a sort of "partial" stasis field in _The Forever War_.  As I
remember, the field cut the speed of light to about 300
meters/second.  Or maybe it just froze everything above that speed.
(It's been a while since I've read the book.)  This field made for
some interesting battles.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 87 12:24:01 PDT
From: Sonia Lyris <edsel!sol@labrea.stanford.edu>
Subject: Courtship Rite

A recent poster couldn't remember the author of "Courtship Rite".
The author is Donald Kingsbury.  While this wonderful book is
currently out of print, it may not be long before it comes back.
Also check used book stores.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 07:54:11 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Leiber's Change War

From:   snark!eric      (Eric S. Raymond)
> Wrong-o, space cadet! The stories you're recalling were Fritz
> Leiber's "Change Wars" series, eventually collected as
> _The_Big_Time_, in which form they won a Hugo in '60 or '61 (I
> forget which). See Ace pb G-627.

Wrong-o, space cadet!  THE BIG TIME was a novel about the Spiders
and Snakes. The original edition was half of an Ace Double, the
other half being the Change War collection THE MIND SPIDER AND OTHER
STORIES. This was expanded/revised (2 stories --- one of which
wasn't a Change War story --- dropped, 5 added) as a Gregg Press
hardcover called THE CHANGE WAR. Ace chopped/further revised (4
dropped, 1 from TMSAOS restored, and 1 added) and republished as
CHANGEWAR.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87  18:01:03 EDT
From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Heroes in Hell

Yet another thumbs down for this "braided meganovel" (or whatever
the trendy term is this week); I had the dubious pleasure of sitting
through a panel at Boskone a few years back that was ostensibly
about shared worlds but turned out to be an enormous plug for Heroes
in Hell.  I have never seen a more obnoxious, self-righteous group,
particularly Janet Morris and (alas!) C.J. Cherryh.  Janet Morris
has always impressed me as being somewhat more gifted than the
notorious Pel Torro, but not by much, and the one previous time I
saw her at a con she turned a nice, friendly panel into a personal
attack on Robert Adams, who had the misfortune of sitting next to
her.  And I could expect anything from a woman who seriously
attributes her "serious, logical mind" to hormonal imbalances
(interview in SFR a few years ago).  But C.J. Cherryh should know
better.  She really should.  As a literature professor she should
especially know better than to put Dante into Hell.  Caesar,
Achilles, all the others, I'll admit.  But *Dante*?

Here's hoping the thing crashes and burns in a few years - it
offends me that acres of trees must die to print trash like that....

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #475
Date: 27 Oct 87 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #475
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 87 0854-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #475
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 475

Today's Topics:

           Books - Eddison & Feist & Heinlein (2 msgs) &
                   McCaffrey & McIntyre & Niven (4 msgs) &
                   Robinson (2 msgs) & Morigu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 07:21:40 GMT
From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: E. R. Eddison

mjlarsen@phoenix.UUCP (Michael J. Larsen) writes:
>stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>>Regarding Eddison's Zimiamvian trilogy:
>>C.S. Lewis once commented that he much disliked the world of the
>>trilogy, though he loved Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros.
>Do you have a citation?  My impression was that Lewis approved the
>trilogy as literature though he abhorred its underlying philosophy.
>I seem to recall his using the phrase "a new climate of the
>imagination" about Zimiamvia.

  I don't have a citation, but Lewis did say somewhere that the
writing in the Zimiamvia books was just as brilliant as in 'The Worm
Ouroboros', but that he found the *world* (not the writing) somehow
abhorrent. I remember thinking he was dead on, I felt just the same.

Gene Ward Smith
Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!garnet!gsmith

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 03:15:45 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker (and other target practice favorites)

Paul William Harvey, pwh@cs.nott.ac.uk:
>  BTW in another posting someone mentioned there being five books
>set in this world / these worlds, this has got me foxed. I know
>about Magician, Silverthorn, A Darkness at Sethanon and Daughter of
>Empire so what's the fifth one called and is it available on this
>side of the pond?

On THIS side of the pond, the publishers decided to split Magician
into two parts for the paperback edition. The individual volumes
were Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master. The hardcover was
printed as it was written: one monster of a book. (I refer to size,
NOT to quality. Let's not start that debate up again.)

Bill Wisner
..{codas,ihnp4}!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 20 Oct 87 21:16:36 GMT
From: uunet!mcvax!diku!rancke@RUTGERS.EDU (Hans Rancke-Madsen.)
Subject: Heinlein damage?

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>In the years since World War II, Heinlein had to some small extent
>backed off from his militarism, and decided to do something to help
>undo the damage he'd done.

What damage? Writing some entertaining fiction can't really do all
that much damage, no matter how not-nice the political sentiments.

Now, if it had been a new politic-economic theory...  :-)

Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
..mcvax!diku!rancke

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 07:29:20 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!reed!wab@RUTGERS.EDU (William Baker)
Subject: Re: Heinlein damage?

rancke@diku.UUCP (Hans Rancke-Madsen.) writes:
>tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>In the years since World War II, Heinlein had to some small extent
>>backed off from his militarism, and decided to do something to
>>help undo the damage he'd done.

I guess I missed the original posting.  I know Big Bob has been
bashed for his political sentiments in this newsgroup more than once
and I have no desire to bring it up again, but I don't think the
above is particularly correct.  Before WWII, Heinlein was in the
navy for a spell and then kicked around a bit before writing his
first SF short story in '39.  He never talked about being an
military activist.  After that, specifically during the late 50's
and early 60's, RAH was a rampant militarist.  Refer to "Who Are The
Heirs Of Patrick Henry," which is an extremely right-wing broadside
about the need to manufacture ten times as many A-bombs as the
russkies.  It was during this period that he wrote "Starship
Troopers" and, later, "Farnham's Freehold," the former totally
jingoistic and the later full of lines like "If I'm going to die for
my country at least I'll take eight Russians with me" and "No
peasant with the manners of a pig is going to run me out of my home"
(these are not totally exact quotes).  The point is, after the war
Heinlein was, if anything, more militaristic, and is to this day.

>What damage? Writing some entertaining fiction can't really do all
>that much damage, no matter how not-nice the political sentiments.

Apparently Heinlein claims that the views expressed in his books are
not necessarily his own.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as
one should any writer (although it's tough when the main character
in "Farnham's Freehold" matches Heinlein to six decimal places).
However, he was and is an activist for all manner of
military/conservative causes.  I admire his libertarian ideals, but
his jingoistic diatribes are abominable.  Where he does damage is by
using his stature as a writer to put across his political views.
Sure, liberal writers do it, too; Asimov is against SDI and Heinlein
is for it.  Theoretically, I should shun both of them but I'm really
only mad at RAH.

Bill Baker
tektronix!reed!wab

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 07:58:03 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: THE COELURA

From:   andrew.cmu.edu!haste+   (Dani Zweig)
> Anne McCaffrey's new book, "The Coelura", just appeared in the
> local bookstore.

Nit: THE COELURA isn't new. It was originally published as a limited
edition book from Underwood-Miller back in 1983.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Net interview #1 - Vonda McIntyre
Date: 24 Oct 87 12:52:15 GMT

As an outgrowth of an unfortunately flame-filled argument in
rec.arts.startrek, I am moderating a net interview with Vonda
McIntyre.  If you have any comments or questions about any of
Vonda's books or stories, please e-mail them to me.  I will collect
them, send them to Vonda, get her answers, and post them over some
short period of time, depending on volume.

The rules (simple, but easy):

  1.  Don't post the questions.  E-mail only, please.
  2.  Don't use the address in the Reply-To or Path headers, or the
      one in my signature.  There is some chance that those
      addresses will not work consistently.  Please send mail to one
      of these:

      {ihnp4, uunet, pyramid}!hoptoad!farren
      hoptoad!farren@lll-crg.arpa

  3.  The deadline for your mail is November 10.

  4.  No comments or questions, either about Vonda's writing or
      about Vonda herself, which are in bad taste (in my opinion)
      will be allowed.  If a comment shows up which I consider
      unacceptable, I will contact the author and try and work out
      an acceptable compromise.  If a compromise cannot be reached,
      that comment will not be sent.  I realize this sounds rather
      authoritarian, and it probably is, but I want to keep this as
      clean as possible, so that, if I should want to do this again,
      I can.  Besides, my guidelines of taste are pretty broad -
      only those things which would be extremely embarassing to both
      Vonda and the questioner will be held up for scrutiny.
      Criticism, however harsh, is perfectly o.k.

Please participate!  If this goes as well as I hope it will, I would
like to do it again, with other persons of prominence in the field.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 15:18:53 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!beede@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Beede)
Subject: Re: Niven's UniNiven's Universe [really: Time Zones]

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com says:
> [ . . . ] Very amusing that Louis Wu would hop into a teleport
> booth to delay ending his 200th birthday -- but why does a
> teleport society still have time zones?  [. . .]

The purpose of time zones is to provide a reference that is
relatively consistent with the natural cycles people live with.
i.e., ``day'' and ``night.''  Perhaps there is some subtle reason
that these phenomena would disappear if teleportation were
inexpensive? ;->

Mike Beede
Computer Science Dept.
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29634-1906
(803)656-{2845,3444}
UUCP: . . . !hubcap!beede
INET: beede@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 05:37:29 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (M S Schiffer)
Subject: Time Zones and Teleportation

beede@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Beede) writes:
>Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com says:
>> [ . . . ] Very amusing that Louis Wu would hop into a teleport
>> booth to delay ending his 200th birthday -- but why does a
>> teleport society still have time zones?  [. . .]
>The purpose of time zones is to provide a reference that is
>relatively consistent with the natural cycles people live with.
>i.e., ``day'' and ``night.''  Perhaps there is some subtle reason
>that these phenomena would disappear if teleportation were
>inexpensive? ;->

It seems to me that if teleportation were extremely inexpensive,
time zones would cause more problems than they solve.  After all, if
you get up in Chicago, go to work in London, eat lunch in Paris and
dinner in Hong Kong, then go for drinks to Moscow, does it really
make sense to reset your watch every few hours?  Also, should you
get up in the morning for London, Chicago, or Paris (or Podunk)?
Time zones only work if it takes a relatively long time to travel
between them.  We're already running into this problem with jet lag,
and it will become worse as transport becomes faster.  I will grant
that for now, time zones are convenient to the vast majority of
people who don't travel outside them on any given day.

M S Schiffer

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 19:01:17 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Niven's UniNiven's Universe [really: Time Zones]

beede@hubcap.UUCP (Mike Beede) writes:
>Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com says:
>> (an assertion that teleportation would end time zones)
>The purpose of time zones is to provide a reference that is
>relatively consistent with the natural cycles people live with.
>i.e., ``day'' and ``night.''  Perhaps there is some subtle reason
>that these phenomena would disappear if teleportation were
>inexpensive? ;->

Perhaps I should have said that there would only be one time zone
per planet.  True people live with natural cycles, but they also
live with other people.  Consider that being able to travel from Los
Angeles to New Dehli in a few minutes would bring new meaning to the
phrase "Global Village".  If you look at a time zone map, you'll see
all sorts of squiggles designed to keep regional "communities" all
in one zone.  So what happens when the world is one big community
and you might have friends, co-workers, customers, etc., who
communicate with you on a daily basis even though they live on the
other side of the planet?

This happens now, of course, but impacts relatively few people, like
stock brokers.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 19:41:54 GMT
From: acm@bu-cs.bu.edu (ACM)
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>Philip Verdieck writes:
>>Hold on here.  The reason, as I see it that the State used humans
>>for Rammers was that only a human would have the neccessary
>>skills, don't ask me which, to arrive at certain conclusions....
>In order to make your point, you're gonna need to point out what
>skills the Peersa software lacked that Corbell had.  There were
>certainly no situations in the book where Peersa was unable to
>respond because he was "only a computer".
>
>I think you're making the mistake of thinking of human memory as a
>collection of facts, a sort of 5-senses tape recording.  It's much
>more than that, it's all the cognitive, emotional and other brain
>programming that organizes and synthesizes the brain's memory.
>Clearly, the science of The State knows how all this stuff works,
>or it wouldn't be able broadcast the Peersa program in the first
>place.

It was my opinion that the program did not exist at the time when
whatsisname the rammer (ok I haven't read the book in 3 years or so
and I forgot his name) took off.  It was developed later and then
loaded into the ship's computer.  This would mean that at the time
when the rammers were being sent out, the technology needed to make
a sentient (yes this is the word I want) program did not exist,
although it may have been close to completion.  When it was
completed, Peersa the program was created and sent out to the ship.

Any other opinions?

jim

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 09:27:06 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Spider Robinson

From:   new@UDEL.EDU    (Darren New)
> _Antinomy_ (or _Antimony_. I forget which. May be hard to find as
> it was remaindered before printing.)

It's ANTINOMY. Contrary to what Chuq said, this was *not*
republished as MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS. The two collections only have
four stories in common.

> His wife also writes under the name of Jeanne (sp?) Robinson.

And why shouldn't she, since that is her actual name, and not a
pseudonym (which the phrase "writes under the name of" suggests). As
Chuq says, STARDANCE is Jeanne's only credit, and she wasn't so much
an actual co-author as she was a technical (dance) advisor.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 04:28:35 GMT
From: cmcl2!hp-pcd!uoregon!stevev@RUTGERS.EDU (Steve VanDevender)
Subject: Re: Other Authors

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>Robinson was for a good while my favorite as well, but
>unfortunately his quality has slipped significantly (and quantity
>as well, for that matter).  His last novel, "Night of Power," to
>put it mildly sucked.

I won't try to argue with your opinion.  I, however, enjoyed "Night
of Power" immensely.  Perhaps it was just that I got the paperback
version with the truly terrible cover (I remember seeing it and
saying to myself, "He can't have written a book which deserves a
cover and blurb as bad as this") and then felt immense relief that
it was a fairly decent book.

As for the last Callahan's Bar story, "The Mick of Time", if it is a
big "F**k you" to the readers, I wish more authors would say "F**k
you" to their readers.  Piers Anthony, for example (poor guy, he's
now become the classic example of the author who succumbed to
seriesitis).  At least we don't have to live with an eternity of
Callahan's stories which steadily get more tiresome.  And once
again, I liked "The Mick of Time", but then again, I almost feel
like singing when I come away from watching "Brazil".  For different
reasons, of course--"TMOT" is much more upbeat, despite the
climactic (and truly final) ending.

>Antinomy was reprinted as "Melancholy Elephants" by Tor as a
>paperback.

"Melancholy Elephants" contains some of the stuff that was in
"Antinomy", but is hardly a reprint.  Some of his new stuff was
added and some other stuff was dropped.

Steve VanDevender
uoregon!drizzle!stevev
stevev@oregon1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 10:52:36 PDT (Thursday)
From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Name this novel (Mark Perry)

I also read Morigu: The Desecration. I must say I had a hard time
with it because of the truly excessive amount of graphic violence in
the book. It's dark and brooding, and I spent several days being
depressed thereafter. It had interesting ideas, I agree, but they
were buried under a veritable tidal wave of blood. I probably won't
read the next one.

Of course, I don't object to a little violence in fantasy, even a
healthy dose. However, Morigu was packed to the gills with it. It's
difficult to find a three page span of the book without some sort of
graphic hacking, gore, FWTD (Fate Worse Than Death), etc.

I would recommend Morigu is only to those almost completely innured
to the suffering of others.

Kurt

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #476
Date: 27 Oct 87 0911-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #476
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 87 0911-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #476
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 476

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 20:34:05 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re: Subtlety in ST???

> To recap, Q was not evil.  He was simply play-acting a role that
> he felt was geared to our mentality.  Since most people on the net
> responded as did the crew, Q was probably quite right.

When I re-watched the pilot, I too felt that there might be some
sort of ulterior, altruistic, motives to Q's bizarre behavior.  Q
certainly is intelligent (a characteristic which Trelane (from one
of the original ST episodes) lacked).  Q certainly could have
finished off the crew of the enterprise at any time, and still give
himself amusement.  It follows that Q's motives were more than just
amusement.  (You'll notice his dodge to get around Jean's question
of "do you use other creatures for your amusement?")

It's something to think about, anyway...

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 01:26:05 GMT
From: ames!bnrmtv!perkins@RUTGERS.EDU (Henry Perkins)
Subject: Star Trek: The Next Generation actors getting some say in new
Subject: scripts

[ From a "Marilyn Beck in Hollywood" column: ]

    Weekly meetings to discuss "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
scripts are taking place between the series cast and its producers
and writers -- after pushing by the performers.  Jonathan Frakes,
who stars as Cmdr. William Riker, says, "We were concerned about
keeping up the quality of the `Trek' episodes.  (Executive producer)
Gene Roddenberry has a lot of responsibility, overseeing each
episode -- probably more than he wants.  This way, we can ask
questions directly."
    Frakes says there were weekly meetings during production of the
pilot episode, "But then they were dropped -- we sort of demanded
they be reinstated."  He adds that Roddenberry and staff "are very
strict about changes in the script -- even one word requires a phone
call upstairs."

This sounds quite promising to me.  Roddenberry tends to have a
highly focused idea of where he wants something to go, but lacks the
skills needed for full character development.  Let's hope the actors
can supply a lot of this themselves.

Henry Perkins
{hplabs,amdahl,ames}!bnrmtv!perkins

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 10:17 PDT
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: STTNG characters

   No-one has mentioned the similarity between Data and Picard. BOTH
those men have similarly shaped&sized probosci!

   A member of the LA Filkharmonics, Meg Garrett, who shares my
fascination with this character, has found some information on the
actor's work prior to STTNG.  For those who may have wondered, he
was already quite bald at 27. BTW, the accent Stewart has is common
to most trained British Shakespearean actors, and is close to the
BBC/Received Pronounciation accent.
   Meg writes:
   While researching reviews of his performances in the Royal
Shakespeare Company, I found out that Patrick Stewart is 47 [a local
magic number], and that in 1967 (age 27), he was in a preformance of
Taming of the Shrew.  The photo shows him already quite bald.
   In 1977, he was Oberon in A Midsummer Night's Dream. The review
reads in part: `the most striking, and much the most successful
performance was of Oberon. ...Patrick Stewart was virtually naked,
muscular and dark-skinned [bits of fabric and boypaint formed the
majority of his costume}...he began Part Two [ActII?] reclining on
the floor playing pan-pipes, a pastoral god, for all the world like
Nijinsky's "Apres-midi d'un faun". ...an oustanding performance.'
   Source: Roger Warren COMEDIES AND HISTORIES AT TWO STRATFORDS,
1977. Shakespeare Survey (1978) 31:142. There is a photo (plate IV,
after p.112), and this publication should be in any academic
library.

   I have mixed feelings about Troi. The actress who plays her has
the first name I do, and the role is somewhat similar to the
character *I* always played in my own ST stories. But folks, I was
never that drippy!  Besides, I was more of a universal
translator/XT-culture specialist.  Telepathy was only a minor part
of that, requiring rather more effort.  Her behavior is rather less
than professional, and even the more modest uniform (yes, I know
it's TV!) calls too much attention to her figure (the neckline, the
chevron at the hip).

3rd episode comments:
   I'm having fun watching Data react to humans. I notice that he
catches himself where Spock would have droned on, as does Picard
where Kirk would have bombasted. I certainly enjoyed the scene in
the atrium where the Away team and the captain were discussing the
limits of the Prime Directive. I don't think Data understands that
names often have nationalities AND national feelings attached to
them. I gather his research and training have not given him even
pointers to this knowledge!

Marina Fournier
Fournier.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 18:52:07 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Why ST:TNG is special to me

A moment of indulgence from the assembled masses please...

I started watching Star Trek when it started, in September of 1966.

I was watching when NBC made the on-air announcement of the third
season.

I wrote letters.

I own a first edition of TMOST.

I discovered organized fandom in 1972.  At that time, the whole idea
for getting together was to PUT STAR TREK BACK ON THE AIR.

I wrote letters.

I was at Equicon in 1974 when Gene announced he was beginning
negotiations with Paramount for more Star Trek.

I wrote letters.

I've edited, written for and drawn for fanzines, I've run
conventions (lots of conventions), helped at conventions, filked
into the night, started fan clubs...and written letters.

I've seen people I helped bring into fandom become pros.

I've watched four movies of varying quality, but it wasn't the same.

I've seen the big E hang in the Smithsonian and a Space shuttle
named for our favorite starship.

And written more letters.

What this all leads to, is that those of us who have been in fandom
since the only reason for its existence was the impossible dream of
putting Star Trek back on the air, have a very special feeling about
ST:TNG.

And the first time I saw the show come out of the teaser, fade to
black, and begin "Space, the final frontier" with that very special
fanfare playing in the backround, a little switch went off in the
back of my head that said "Ohmygod, we did it."

So, for the committee of the original NY Trekcons, for LL&Igor, for
Bjo and Helen Young and Shirley Maiewski, for Devra and Debra and
Winston Howlett, Mike McMaster and Tim Courtney, for all the editors
of fanzines when they were mimeo and runners of cons when they were
new...

and expecially for the writers of all those letters.

This is a very special time.

For whatever becomes of ST:TNG isn't nearly as important as the fact
it does exist...and why.

Rich Kolker

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 87 16:48:54 GMT
From: imcc@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk (Ian McCord)
Subject: Re: Star Trek transporters -- how they (can't) work

If I remember corectly there was a ST episode involving a planet
with Chicago type gangsters.  The relevant part is where Kirk and
Spock are beaming down and it is stated that they can't move until
they stop sparkling. I think this is due to the operation of a
stasis field.

I also remember hearing somewhere that photon torpedoes are balls of
plasma stored in stasis fields. The casing generates the field ,
which is turned of at a safe distance from the ship.

Iain McCord

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 87 14:54:35 PST
From: PUGH@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Star Trek: The Sex Generation

Concerning Star Trek: The New Generation:

I was just watching reruns of ST:TNG because my cable hasn't been
switched on yet, and caught an interesting line out of The Naked
Now.  As Ryker carries off the Betamax, she asks if he wants her in
his mind.  This has some interesting implications, particularly
since at this time, Yar is testing Data's claims of full
functionality.  I imply this to mean that while Ryker is pushing her
pleasure buttons, she can push his.  I believe Frank N Furter was
singing about this a few years back.  The MMF if you care to mince
words.

Well, the only ones left are the Captain and Mrs. Crusher, which I
think we can classify as a team, and Georgi and the Klingon (who
didn't seem to get infected because no one wanted to touch him?).
Perhaps they will meet the ever horny aliens that we all know are
out there.

There certainly is more implied sex on this Enterprise, but what do
you expect when people bring their kids along?  Just watch those
open mouthed kisses!  (In case you don't know, GR caught a lot of
flack from the censors about that in 1967.)

Jon

By the by, I read something a long time ago (in a galaxy far far
away), that stated that the transporter used the warp idea to bend
space and oscillate an object into a new place.  That accounts for
why they can still move when they are transported.  Flash digitizing
doesn't allow them to move during the process and it brings in nasty
implications.  With the movement theory you get no duplication
capability.  Of course, there was that good Kirk, bad Kirk thing.
Perhaps they were both harmonics off the main frequency?  But then
who ever heard of a machine acting on good/evil impulses?  Maybe
that would account for our VAX's behavior...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 87 22:09 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG: The Last Outpost

Comments on the latest episode:

   The captain: Since he is so obviously French (or of French
origin) why doesn't he have an accent?  You know, something like:
"We've been hit by les photon torpedoes! Ooh la la!"

   Lt.Worf: When is he finally going to get his way?  Jean-Luc, er,
I mean the Captain, is always surrendering.  When are we going to
see some action?  You know, like "Go ahead, make my stardate"

   The Ferrengi: How come creatures that look and act like the
hunchback of Notre-Dame have developed a spacefaring civilization?
And, BTW, why always variations on the erect biped theme?  How about
reptilian forms, or something a bit off the beaten track?

   Why did they have to fill the whole viewscreen of the Enterprise
with the Ferrengi captain image?  I'd think lifesize would be best.
It doesn't add to the episode's realism if one can really count all
the pores on the Ferrengi's face!

   When the starships are immobilized, the Feds think the Ferrengi
are holding their ship with their Immenso-Matic-Freezo-Grabo-Beam.
It seems to me that, since the warp drive was intact (they attempted
to do w9, so it must have been working) that they would merely drag
the Ferrengi along.  You know, action-reaction.  Or did they think
the Immenso-Matic-Freezo-Grabo-Beam anchors the Ferrengi against the
planet?  Or maybe they don't teach action-reaction at the starfleet
academy anymore.

Not a bad episode, despite the gripe. On a scale of 1..5, I'd give
it 2.5 to 3.

George Barbanis
UMass - Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 13:25:00 EST
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG - "THE LAST OUTPOST"

   I don't know whether it is because I am getting used to the
characters, but I really enjoyed this lastest ST:TNG episode.  I
liked it enough to tape it the next day and watch it then as well.
Maybe the actors are starting to get into their parts.  Of course
the fact that Wesley did not even have a speaking line in the whole
episode was a definite plus.  The Betazoid didn't even seem that
bad, and she was the one to first think about investigating the
planet.  This was a definite plus to her character.  I am enjoying
the humor of Data more and more.  The Chinese finger puzzle scene
was hilarious.  His trying to put in some slang to appear more human
also comes out well.  It looks like we are getting bit and pieces of
the characters.
   The Ferrengi did not appear as visually nasty as I would have
thought, but they did have a different outlook on life.  One thing
that they didn't notice was that there were more than humans.
Perhaps they just were not sensitive enough to notice that Data and
Worf were different. On the other hand they were able to identify
Lt. Yar as being female.
   One negative note is the coming attraction for next time - a warp
malfunction sends them 2 million lightyears or so?  Maybe we'll
learn something about the warp drive, but I suspect we'll just have
to ignore a few absurdities.  It seems that it is going to be a
strange episode.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 10:09 PST
From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Star Trek:  The New (Put preferred noun here)

BTW, "Ferengi" is very close to the Turkish? word for foreigners or
"frankish people", "farengi".
   What I learn by reading historical novels....

marina

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 00:41:33 GMT
From: anich@puff.wisc.edu (Steven Anich)
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Last Outpost

>   Why did they have to fill the whole viewscreen of the Enterprise
>with the Ferrengi captain image?  I'd think lifesize would be best.
>It doesn't add to the episode's realism if one can really count all
>the pores on the Ferrengi's face!

Remmember back to what Data says after the viewscreen goes off.  He
says something like "They were purposely distorting the image".

It means nothing at the time.  But, The Ferrengi were making
themselves look BIGGER and thus more fierceful.  Or they weren't
letting humans know they were short.

steve anich
anich@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 87 18:43:41 PST
From: raoul@VLSI.JPL.NASA.GOV (Earthquake Victim)
Subject: Star Wreck : The Next Regurgitation

From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
>You don't seem to have been paying attention.  We were given the
>insight that his motivation was to buy time for the saucer.  He had
>already determined to his satisfaction that he could not fight so
>was going to have to deal with this some other way.

On the contrary, you have not been paying attention.  If you read
the rest of my message you will find that I give an alternative
scenario to delay the alien so that the saucer may escape.  I think
my scenario would have been far more effective in delaying the alien
and more entertaining as well.  Surrendering unconditionally would
give the alien a chance to blow the ship away without a parlay.  So
much for delaying tactics.  The point was that the situation was
badly conceived.

Al

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #477
Date: 27 Oct 87 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #477
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 87 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #477
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 477

Today's Topics:

                     Books - Tolkien (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 07:30:16 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: LOTR exposed...

From:   tahoe!malc      (Malcolm L. Carlock)
> I know several people who "don't like LOTR" (and never finished
> it), who tried reading LOTR without having read "The Hobbit"
> first.  This could be heavy going.  Since LOTR is based in TH, a
> lot of background references in LOTR won't make sense.

I've read THE HOBBIT twice and enjoyed it both times, but I found
LOTR (or at least, what I've read of it --- I couldn't make it past
the middle of THE TWO TOWERS) to be as enjoyable as listening to
someone snore.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 12:02:00 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: The Ace editions of LOTR

From:   im4u!speegle    (Greg Speegle)
> Could someone tell me the story behind the "authorized", and other
> LOTR books? My copies always said something about being the only
> authorized versions, but until now I had forgotten about it.

When Houghton Mifflin first published LOTR in the US, what they did
was to import the unbound sheets from the British publisher (Allen
Unwin), substitute the title page so that it bore their name, and
bound them. Due to the way the copyright laws worked at the time,
this wasn't sufficient for establishing a US copyright for the book
and it fell into public domain. Tolkien had to revise the books
slightly for Houghton Mifflin to publish in order to establish a
proper copyright in the US. The Ace edition of the trilogy was a
reprint of that first, public domain version of the books. Tolkien
and his publishers were a little peeved at this, but there wasn't
anything they could do except put the notice on the Ballantine
editions about it being the only "authorized" edition. Basically,
the only effect this had was to advise the public that if they had
any respect for the efforts of the author, they'd buy the authorized
editions. I don't believe that there is any significant difference
between the two versions.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 16:54:15 GMT
From: jcmorris@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA (Joseph C. Morris)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed...

In a recent article boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>I've read THE HOBBIT twice and enjoyed it both times, but I found
>LOTR (or at least, what I've read of it --- I couldn't make it past
>the middle of THE TWO TOWERS) to be as enjoyable as listening to
>someone snore.

If you didn't like LOTR, try the Lampoon parody: _Bored of the
Rings_.  It's a good, if sometimes heavy-handed, rehash of the LOTR
plot.  (No, I don't recall the publisher.  The book came out in
paperback during the height of the LOTR craze or maybe a little
after.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 18:02:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

While at BYU as an undergrad I did an Honor's thesis with an English
professor who did his dissertation on LotR.  He told me that if he
had read The Hobbit first, wild horses could not have dragged him to
read Lotr.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 21:15:08 GMT
From: stucki@bass.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J. Stucki)
Subject: Re: Tolkien Love/Hate

etstkvh@dutrun.UUCP (Karel van Houten) writes:
>leavitt%hpscad.DEC@decwrl.dec.com writes:
>>Of course, if you haven't discovered this by the end of the first
>>volume, then you probably should put it down, and you CERTAINLY
>>should not attempt the SILMARILLION!  That is clearly for the
>>die-hards.  But please grant the Tolkien lovers out here our
>>little discussions.
>
>For me, a real Tolkien Fan, this remark about the Silmarillion is
>not true. I have re-read the Silmarillion more often then the LOTR.
>I like the Silmarillion more because it contains more interesting
>characters, and not so many (quite booring) hobbits.  When you also
>like the Silmarillion, the Unfinished tales are a MUST too!

I agree strongly with KvH -- I have also read each of the History of
Middle-Earth books as they have come out. These are the books which
are truly for the die-hard Tolkien fans. The Silmarillion stands
alone as one of the great literary works of this century (the other
later ones are more of a history of the Silmarillion than new
material). LOTR is merely a side effort of Tolkien's which sprang up
from the midst of his work on the central Silmarillion.

David J Stucki
P.O. Box 713 Park Hall
110 W. 11th Ave.
Columbus, OH  43210
..!cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!stucki
stucki@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 21:34:14 GMT
From: stucki@bass.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J. Stucki)
Subject: Tolkien

When LOTR first became popular in G.B. the American publishers Ace
books decided to release an illegal copy to avoid imports and cut
cost (and to make a quick buck). Tolkien found out and took some
legal action to stop it (I can't remember anymore exactly what
happened).  Then when he contracted with Ballentine for a legal
edition he put a note on the back cover stating that it was the only
edition he had authorized in the USA.  So if you have a copy of the
original Ace edition it is probably worth something to a die-hard
Tolkien collector/fan.

The college I did my undergraduate work at (Wheaton College,
Illinois) has an extensive Tolkien collection (I think only rivalled
by Oxford and Christopher T.) and is a good source of information on
JRRT. If you have any questions on his works or his life I can
probably find out from them for you.

David J Stucki
P.O. Box 713 Park Hall
110 W. 11th Ave.
Columbus, OH 43210
..!cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!stucki
stucki@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 12:09:57 GMT
From: pwh@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Paul William Harvey)
Subject: Re: Anthony & Chalker (and other target practice favorites)

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>>Tonight's First Topic: Raymond Feist
>>Les Kay, cheeser@dasys1.UUCP:
>>>I have to disagree violently with the statement (used to death
>>>around here) that so-and-so, Feist in this case, lifts too much
>>>from Tolkein.  Where?
>>I guess you've got me there. I can't think of any other fantasy
>>milieu where there are dwarves, elves, intelligent dragons..
>
>Actually, it is fairly clear to me, based on things I have heard as
>well as the internals of the books, that Feist lifted his
>background from the game Dungeons and Dragons, rather than from
>Tolkien.  Of course, this only pushes it back one level, since
>Dungeons and Dragons lifted *its* background mostly from Tolkien.

  I'm afraid I don't have a copy of The D&D rulebook which contains
a list of recommended reading to hand but I do remember that Tolkien
is in the secondary list of books. The primary list (ie those books
which were credited with a major role in the development of the game
included stuff like Vance's Dying Earth and Michael Moorcock's
Eternal Champion books. Apologies for any I've forgotten.
  Anyway I don't think Feist lifted his stuff from D&D itself. The
magic is way too different for a start. (Don't knock my grammar I'm
just lazy) In my copies at least it is mentioned that Feist was in
fact a professional games designer maybe Magician et al. were based
on a campaign he ran under his own rules.
  BTW in another posting someone mentioned there being five books
set in this world / these worlds, this has got me foxed. I know
about Magician, Silverthorn, A Darkness at Sethanon and Daughter of
Empire so what's the fifth one called and is it available on this
side of the pond?

>Of course, Tolkien lifted most of *his* background from existing
>mythology.  He did a better job than most of making it his own, but
>dwarves, elves, dragons, the conflict between good and evil, the
>king in hiding, the powerful wizard who doesn't use his powers
>much, etc., etc.; all these are

  I agree that Dragons, exiled kings, good/evil conflict and wizards
with lights under bushels weren't Tolkien's ideas but his dwarves
and elves were quite distinct from the dwarfs and elfs (note the
spelling) of the fairy tales which came before. Dwarfs and elfs
tended to be evil nasty creatures. Ok Tolkien didn't do much new
with dwarves but his elves are a completely different breed elfs for
a start they average about six feet tall as opposed to the two foot
imp-like creatures in Grimm etc. Tolkien was always at great pains
to point out that the only reason he called them elves was because
he felt that people would associate the term with magic which was
what he wanted. In fact there is a note at the beginning of LotR
which explains to any nit-picking scholars why he has used the
'incorrect' plurals of dwarf and elf in his work. I suppose it is a
measure of Tolkiens effect on people that if you ask somebody what
the word elf brings to mind they will usually describe the Tolkien
edition, and nobody spells elves with an 'f' nowadays :-)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 09:42:42 GMT
From: uunet!mcvax!ukc!reading!riddle!domo@RUTGERS.EDU (Dominic Dunlop)
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

jimg@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Jim Gavin) writes:
>... I also object to a work of that length that has me struggling
>through it... , that has a "climax" that had me rolling around in
>hysterics for five minutes!
>
>I have forced myself to re-read LOTR on several occasions, and
>whilst I can see the good aspects of the story, I feel that it is a
>touch too long- winded to make the book the classic that everyone
>seem to think it is.

The antidote to LOTR is the Harvard Lampoon's _Bored of the Rings_,
still in print from, I believe, Signet.  It's much shorter, yet
manages to incorporate (perhaps `desecrate' might be a better word)
all the major plot elements and characters of the original.  It has
me in hysterics for considerably longer than five minutes each time
I re-read it.  The better you know LOTR, the funnier it is (a
compendious knowledge of late-sixties US catchphrases and consumer
product brand names also helps, I should imagine).

On the other hand, those who revere LOTR, and those who dislike
awful puns and cunning pastiches think it stinks...

Dominic Dunlop
domo@riddle.UUCP
domo@sphinx.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 87 11:36:10 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

stucki@bass.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J. Stucki) writes:
>When LOTR first became popular in G.B. the American publishers Ace
>books decided to release an illegal copy to avoid imports and cut
>cost (and to make a quick buck). Tolkien found out and took some
>legal action to stop it (I can't remember anymore exactly what
>happened).  Then when he contracted with Ballentine for a legal
>edition he put a note on the back cover stating that it was the
>only edition he had authorized in the USA.  So if you have a copy
>of the original Ace edition it is probably worth something to a
>die-hard Tolkien collector/fan.

Not quite.  At the time that Ace published its version of LOTR, the
copyright laws contained some loophole which allowed Ace (or any
other American publisher, for that matter) to publish LOTR if they
wished, with no obligation to obtain the author's permission, or to
be required to pay him royalties.  Thus, the Ace edition was
entirely legal, but morally reprehensible, not the least of reasons
why being that Tolkien was alive at the time.  Ballantine issued an
_authorized_ version, as opposed to Ace's unauthorized one.

The original Ace paperbacks are worth a bit now, as collector's
items.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 04:28:29 GMT
From: uiucdcs!sq!msb@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: LOTR exposed. . .. . .

>> The first time I picked up LoTR, I quit after about 90 or so
>> pages.  The book started really slow ...
>
> Did you read "The Hobbit" first?  HOB. 101 is a prerequisite for
> LOTR 499.  I know several people who "don't like LOTR" (and never
> finished it), who tried reading LOTR without having read "The
> Hobbit" first.  This could be heavy going.

On the other hand, I read LOTR first and The Hobbit second, and I'm
glad I did.  I particularly enjoyed LOTR's "slow" introductory
scenes, in fact.  They were a fine way to describe the innocence and
goodness of the hobbits.  The vocabulary of the Shire is clearly
designed to appeal to British readers, and perhaps this will make it
less homey to some Americans.

What did bother me the first time I read LOTR was that entire Books
were spent on side plots.  "Forget about Gondor, what's happening to
the Ring?"  But this too is appropriate, for it reminds us that in
Middle-Earth most communication is at a pedestrian, or perhaps
equestrian, speed.  And it just meant that I enjoyed those Books all
the more when I came to read LOTR aloud, because I was less familiar
with their contents.

I certainly was not bothered by any lack of background information
in LOTR.  If I had read The Hobbit first, I would have enjoyed it,
but I would also have been put off somewhat by the juvenile
vocabulary, and probably would not have "bothered to read the
sequel".  But knowing how important the Ring was, and what it would
do to Bilbo, enhanced The Hobbit for me.

In short, opinions differ.  The sensible thing seems to be: if you
don't like the style of one story, put it aside and try the other
one.  If you don't like either one, accept pity.

Mark Brader
SoftQuad Inc.
Toronto
utzoo!sq!msb
msb@sq.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 87 15:29 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dan Parmenter)
Subject: Ring Things...

In regards to whether or not LOTR is a great work, I would tend to
side with those who feel that it is.  Something about its scope and
grandeur, and its richness captivates me.  My early exposure to it
was when my father read it to me when I was about 6 or so (as well
as all of the Narnia books, hi dad...).  Naturally, I favored The
Hobbit, since it was a simpler story.  From that day forward, I
always knew that I wanted to go to Middle-Earth.  That seems to be a
common thread among Tolkien fans, that overwhelming feeling in the
back of one's mind that one would chuck it all, for the chance to
live in Middle-Earth.  As I grew older, I reread all of LOTR myself,
and still found myself enthralled with the characters, situations
etc.  I began to realize at that point that the characters were
hardly the most 'deep' characters one could imagine, although unlike
some fans, I have no problem with what might be termed
'archetypical' characters.  I've had endless conversations with
serious Tolkien buffs who assure me that the characters ~are~ in
fact 'deeper' than I might imagine.

What I really like about the books is that they were, for their
time, somewhat unique.  Granted, Tolkien derived a lot of his
background from mythology, but he worked it over and made it his
own.  By telling his story through the small, unassuming hobbits, we
can more easily relate to the bigness of the events described.  It
is far easier to envision a fantasy of swords and sorcery through
the eyes of a Hobbit whose goal in life is comfort, than to see it
through mighty-thewed barbarian kings, a la Conan and his ilk.

The problem I've had with more recent fantasy is that it's filtered
down through lesser sources.  Tolkien may very well have been
inspired by lost epics and ancient myths, today's fantasy-spinner's
seem inspired only by Tolkien.  Hence, the endless knock-offs.  When
someone admits to deriving inspiration from D&D, that becomes a
third-generation inspiration.  Eventually, the original magic is
lost.  Today's writer's attempts at evoking an other-worldly sense
come across sounding purple and pathetic.  Tolkien makes you want to
visit Middle-Earth.  The rest, with a few notable exceptions, make
you wish you could send the WRITER to Middle-Earth.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 27-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #478
Date: 27 Oct 87 1016-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #478
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Oct 87 1016-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #478
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 27 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 478

Today's Topics:

           Books - Anthony & Preuss (3 msgs) & Resnick &
                   Silverberg (2 msgs) & Zelazny &
                   Fantasy Books & Time Wars (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 87 08:19 EDT
From: JSCHEFF@wash-vax.bbn.com
Subject: One More on Anthony

   A long time ago (I presume pre-Xanth), Piers Anthony wrote a book
quite unlike his more recent series.  This book, _Triple Entente_,
lacks his usual overkill of puns and describes a political solution
to population, crime, etc problems of a future society.  I highly
recommend it if you can find it--it may be out in print or received
only limited distribution

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 22:07:20 GMT
From: rock%warp@sun.com (Bill Petro)
Subject: VENUS PRIME Question

Has anyone read the new book "Arthur C. Clarke's 'Venus Prime'"?  I
really enjoy ACC's stuff, having gotten introduced to the science
fiction genre as a kid on his stuff, The City and the Start, 2001,
Childhood's End, and his short stories.

I notice that this book has Paul Preuss' name on it.  It seems to be
a colaboration with ACC and Preuss.  If so, what is the extent of
ACC's involvement.  Is this just "ACC Presents"?  Is his only
involvement that the story is based on one of his early novellas?

How is the book?  There are a lot of nice pictures in the back.  Is
is worth it?

Bill Petro
{cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!warp!rock

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 22:35:53 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: VENUS PRIME Question

>I notice that this book has Paul Preuss' name on it.  It seems to
>be a colaboration with ACC and Preuss.  If so, what is the extent
>of ACC's involvement.  Is this just "ACC Presents"?  Is his only
>involvement that the story is based on one of his early novellas?

His only real involvement is the 'universe' and his name. The book
was entirely written by Preuss. This is just one instance of the
latest publishing fad: the shared universe. They take a name author,
grab one of his universes, and find a group of lesser name authors
to write books in it.  The big name gets front billing, the real
author gets small print and 50% of the royalties (and probably LOTS
of sales he wouldn't have gotten otherwise, since it has A Real
Author's Name on it).

But please note that I'm not bitching, this is sort of a consumer
alert. I'm currently reading "Clypsis" by Jeffrey A. Carver, which
is the first book in Roger Zelazny's "Alien Speedways" series, and
it's pretty good -- and I'm kind of glad that Zelazny's name will
get this guy some readers that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise
(would YOU buy a book by Carver off the shelf? Or would you be more
likely to buy a book by Carver that has Zelazny's backing?)

I'm not sure I'm happy about this latest fad. I'm also not sure how
long it'll last, but there are three series that I know of so far:
the Clarke, the Zelazny, and Asimov's Robot City series. Time will
tell if it's viable.  But folks buying them should be warned that
the Author's involvement tends to be minimal, except at a very high
level. Normally a book publisher or packager gets the author to put
together a guide book and then does the rest themselves.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 20:36:51 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Venus Prime by Paul Preuss

I had already read and somewhat enjoyed "Human Error" by Paul
Preuss, so I noted this with interest.  It is billed as "Arthur C.
Clarke's Venus Prime", and it isn't made clear just what this means
for other books in this series (yes, it is a series).  But for this
particular book, it means that an old ACC short story "Breaking
Strain" is used as a subplot in the novel.

The series-long plot seems to be for the heroine to track down some
bad guys 'wot done her wrong and stole her memories of the dastardly
deed.  She wants to know just what was done to her and by whom.
This background plot, of course, is not resolved.  The book-long
plot is a mystery, trying to determine whether a seeming-accident is
really a crime, and if so, whodunit.  It, of course, is resolved.
The ACC short forms a sub-subplot.

The seams between the writing styles of the ACC sub-subplot and the
rest of the story are very evident.  ACC's scene-driven,
contemnplative style has a pretty high contrast with Preuss's more
plot-driven, adventure-story style.  Also, the skill levels are
different I think.  The ACC-written parts "suck you in" more
effectively.  Not that the Preuss-written parts are ineffective...
just that ACC shows more...  oh... polish I suppose.  Even in an old
story like this one.

In any event, as series go, it seems worthwhile.  If it doesn't go
downhill, I expect I'll continue to read it as mind candy.  Give it
** or **+ on the OtherRealms scale.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 20:58:51 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: The Dark Lady by Mike Resnick

Subtitled "A romance of the far future", which captures something of
it, I suppose.  I was captured by the cover, which shows a woman
holding a painting of a woman holding a painting of a woman etc,
etc, etc.  In each case it is clearly the same woman, but the dress,
haircut, and background are all different.  But the woman and her
pose and expression are identical in all the nested paintings.

The story follows "Leonardo", an alien apprentice art dealer who
becomes involved with several men who are obsessed (for different
reasons) with an art mystery.  Art objects of various types
(paintings, sculptures, holograms, etc.) painted at drastically
different times (spanning eight thousand years or more) all portray
the same model.  She is always wearing black, is stunningly
beautiful, has the same expression of sadness in each depiction, and
is always captured by artists that are not well known.

It becomes Leonardo's job to find out what the common link (other
than the model, of course) is between all these artworks, in the
hopes of tracking down a) more of them b) the model and c) the
explanation of how a single model could have posed for so many
little-known artists over such a long span of time.

So far, so good. (***+ or so, so far) I was well pleased, and
Resnick does a pretty good job of telling things from Leonardo's
point of view, and paints a nice background for the story by
incidental happenings along the way.  But...  we never find out
anything about the DL.  Now, leaving a certain amount to the
imagination seems ok to me, and I can certainly come up with an
ample supply of scenarios to "explain" things.  But to resolve the
ending, she simply appears and acts differently in her final
appearance, with no foreshadowing at all, and evaporates in a puff
of anticlimax at the end of the book.

Sigh.  But even with the let-down of an ending, I guess it deserves
about **+ on the OtherRealms scale.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 13:37:09 GMT
From: istbt!greg@RUTGERS.EDU (Greg Reeve)
Subject: Robert Silverberg

A while ago I read 'Lord Valentines Castle' by Robert Silverberg and
thought that it was a good read (I couldn't put it down) and am
currently reading the sequel called 'The Majipoor Chronicles'.

I wanted to recommend/comment on Lord Valentines Castle as it passed
both of my 'this is a good book' tests, which are:

   1. You just can't put it down

       and

   2. My wife liked it (this isn't sexist - it's just that she
      doesn't like SF but this one was different) This is important
      since it has a lot of SF but also has a good (human-interest?)
      storyline.

It is the story of a man called 'Valentine' who realises that he has
had his mind stolen and was once the Coronal (the person in charge)
of the planet. The story is how he goes about regaining control of
the planet by honourable means (because he is truly the coronal he
finds it hard to be nasty).

The planet is a 'backwater' planet that used to be inhabited by
creatures called Metamorphs who can imitate other creatures.  The
humans (and other races) decided that they would dominate the planet
and so they hearded the metamorphs into 'reservations'.  The book
contains an interesting mixture of new technology and old customs,
its a bit like SF in the dark ages.  The book also has a fair bit of
'magic' thrown in and 'dreams' are of vast importance.

After reading some of the Majipoor Chronicles (sorry Majipoor is the
name of the planet) I still like Silverberg's writing and would
recommend it to any of you out there.

If you have any comments on Silverberg or his books or if you know
of any other Silverberg books I would like to hear from you.

Greg
greg@ist.co.uk
Imperial Software Technology
Tel: +44 1 581 8155

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 17:36:12 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Re: Robert Silverberg

greg@istbt.UUCP (Greg Reeve) writes:
>A while ago I read 'Lord Valentines Castle' by Robert Silverberg
>and thought that it was a good read (I couldn't put it down) and am
>currently reading the sequel called 'The Majipoor Chronicles'.

This is a GREAT series!  There is one other book in the series --
_Valentine Pontifex_.  I picked up LVC on a whim and also couldn't
put it down.  The neat thing about it is that, while it's really
quite "fantastic" -- the world has a population of tens of billions,
an indigenous native race capable of shifting forms, and a powerful
psi called the "King of Dreams" who's responsible for sending
nightmares -- it's also quite believable (even the part of the
narrative where the characters travel up the side of a
several-miles-high mountain to the Castle, or down into a huge
Labyrinth).  The world is well thought out and cohesive -- really
the best Silverberg in years.  I recommend it (for what my opinion
is worth to the net at large).

Walter Hunt
Compugraphic Corporation

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 16:53:10 GMT
From: BMOCONNO@pucc.princeton.edu (Brendan O'connor)
Subject: The definitive origin of Amber

A while back, there was lot of discussion about the origin of Amber
as the name for the world/universe Dworkin created. I seem to
remember that the discussion had become very circular at the end
(Amber ==> Rebma ==> Amber), albeit in a joking fashion.

Recenly, I read a biography of Zelazny entitled (what else) _Roger
Zelazny_ by Theodore Krulik (New York: The Ungar Publishing Company,
1986, 178 pages).

Krulik writes "Visually, Zelazny sees the Shadows in this way: 'I
looked at it from a sort of radial symmetry, and placed this world
in the middle of the others in concentric rings. Just that mental
image, when it came along, for some reason the name Amber occurred
to me.'" (p. 111).

Krulik indicates in a footnote that he obtained this quote from
Zelazny in a personal interview conducted on Nov. 4, 1982 in
Zelazny's New Mexico home.

As an aside, Krulik's biography of Zelazny is an enjoyable, quick
read. The details on Zelazny's life are sketchy (essentially one
short chapter). The remainder of the book is concerned with
Zelazny's writings.

UUCP   : ...{allegra,ihnp4,cbosgd}!psuvax1!PUCC.BITNET!BMOCONNO
ARPA   : BMOCONNO@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU
BITNET : BMOCONNO@PUCC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 87 11:25:18 edt
From: Bard Bloom <bard@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #458

> So, given all this, why do people think so highly of [Lord of the
> Rings]?  Simply put, because it was the first.

It wasn't first, even in British+North American epic fantasy
literature.  Eddison's _The_Worm_Oroboros_ (spelling approximate)
was written earlier, and is arguably a better book.  (Not so good on
world creation, and in need of editing; better on characterization,
especially evil characters -- and characters who are neither wholly
good nor wholly evil.  De gustibus flammarandum est. (Latin
approximate))

But let's not forget Lord Dunsany, James Branch Cabell, C.S. Lewis,
William Morris, and a dozen similar writers --- or Homer, Ariosto,
and a hundred others.  Lin Carter's _Imaginary_Worlds_, if you can
find it, is a good sketch of the history of fantasy.  If you can
hunt down some of the books it mentions, you will find gems that
equal the best of modern fantasy.

Bard

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 13:12:12 GMT
From: firth@SEI.CMU.EDU (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Time wars

spencer@ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu (The Parrothead) writes:
>I need help in finding a time travel story that I read in my youth.
>It dealt with a group of people who took tour groups back in time
>to various historical "times & places."  I know that it is NOT the
>story where the hunters go back to hunt mastodons or somesuch and
>someone steps off the path and squashes a small insect, with
>disastrous results back in the hunter's "real" world.  It's NOT
>that one.  Can anyone help?

You mean it's not A Sound of Thunder?  Then it might be John
Brunner's The Productions of Time, serialised in F&SF about 25 years
ago.  Or perhaps Kornbluth's Vintage Season? (is that the right
title??)

There have been a lot of such stories, but those are the two I
misremember best.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 22:03:36 GMT
From: uunet!garfield!john13@RUTGERS.EDU (John Russell)
Subject: Re: Time wars (really story request answer)

spencer@ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu (The Parrothead) writes:
> I need help in finding a time travel story that I read in my
> youth.  It dealt with a group of people who took tour groups back
> in time to various historical "times & places."

"Vintage Season" by Lawrence O'Donnell. First published in
Astounding Science Fiction 1946, reprinted in
_Treasury_of_Science_Fiction_ 1980.

John

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 16:22:46 GMT
From: carole@rosevax.rosemount.com (Carole Ashmore)
Subject: Re: Time wars

spencer@ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu (The Parrothead) writes:
> I need help in finding a time travel story that I read in my
> youth.  It dealt with a group of people who took tour groups back
> in time to various historical "times & places."  I know that it is
> NOT the story where the hunters go back to hunt mastodons or
> somesuch and someone steps off the path and squashes a small
> insect, with disastrous results back in the hunter's "real" world.
> It's NOT that one.  Can anyone help?

I'm not sure it's the one you're looking for, but a story with this
theme is one of the best time travel stories, and indeed one of the
best and most literate science fiction stories ever written (Which
is why I'm posting rather than replying; I recommend it to anyone
who hasn't already encountered it.)  It is called "Vintage Season",
is quite old, (40s, 50s?) and, I believe, is by Henry Kuttner.

Carole Ashmore

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 13:13:58 GMT
From: spencer@ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Steve)
Subject: time wars book found

Thanks for all the replies, I found the book of which I was looking.
The title is "Up The Line" by Robert Silverberg.

Stephen Spencer
The Computer Graphics Research Group
The Ohio State University
1501 Neil Avenue, Columbus OH 43210
{cbosgd,ucbvax}!osu-cis!ogg!spencer
osu-cis!ogg.cgrg.ohio-state.edu!spencer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #479
Date: 29 Oct 87 0850-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #479
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Oct 87 0850-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #479
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 479

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 23:10:52 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!dwb@RUTGERS.EDU (David W. Berry)
Subject: Re: Why ST:TNG is special to me

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>I discovered organized fandom in 1972.  At that time, the whole
>idea for getting together was to PUT STAR TREK BACK ON THE AIR.
>
>What this all leads to, is that those of us who have been in fandom
>since the only reason for its existance was the impossible dream of
>putting Star Trek back on the air, have a very special feeling
>about ST:TNG.

   Hard to believe that in 1947 when WesterCon I was held, that it's
only reason for existence was to get Star Trek back on the air.  And
WorldCon is older than that I believe.  Perhaps for you, the entire
purpose of organized fandom is to idolize star trek, but, for a
great many people it's more a way to meet interesting people, space
out, watch movies, play games, and a slew of other things.

>I've seen the big E hang in the Smithsonian and a Space shuttle
>named for our favorite starship.

Hmm... Your timeline seems to be a little skewed again.  There was a
USN ship in the 1800's, I believe, named the Enterprise not to
mention an aircraft carrier named after it, all before Star Trek.

>And the first time I saw the show come out of the teaser, fade to
>black, and begin "Space, the final frontier" with that very special
>fanfare playing in the backround, a little switch went off in the
>back of my head that said "Ohmygod, we did it."

   We'll forgive you anyway :-)

PS.  I've actually been enjoying TNG, not so much by laughing with
it as laughing at it.  And it does show promise and has been
improving.

David W. Berry
dwb@well.uucp
dwb@Delphi

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 04:25:11 GMT
From: nathan@eddie.mit.edu (Nathan Glasser)
Subject: Re: Why ST:TNG is special to me

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>What this all leads to, is that those of us who have been in fandom
>since the only reason for its existance was the impossible dream of
>putting Star Trek back on the air, have a very special feeling
>about ST:TNG.
>...
>"Ohmygod, we did it."
>...
>For whatever becomes of ST:TNG isn't nearly as important as the
>fact it does exist...and why.

Very nice article, Rich. I agree with this attitude towards ST:TNG,
and extend it to the other form in which ST has been presented to us
recently, the movies.

If only everybody else agreed, we might have fewer battles of flames
and harsh criticisms because of ST, and instead have more enjoyable
interactions with other ST fans.

Nathan Glasser
nathan@{mit-eddie.uucp, xx.lcs.mit.edu}

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 13:44:35 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Why ST:TNG is special to me

I was never claiming organized SF fandom was invented to put ST back
on the air.  (By the way, the first con was Philcon in 1936, I think
the first Worldcon was NYC in 1939).  What I am saying is that ST
convention fandom, which took the forms of SF fandom since they were
there, had as its overwhelming purpose in the early days getting the
show back on the air.

I also don't idolize Star Trek (although I'll admit some people do).
I probably have a better knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses
of the new show and what causes them because I understand the
realities of television production in general and Star Trek in
particular.

I am perfectly capable of criticizing the new series.  There has
been much to criticize (and much to praise) in what we have seen so
far (which is just a few episodes).

What I was trying to say was, I DO have this special feeling about
the series that comes from seeing something that you've been trying
to accomplish for 15 years finally bear fruit.  The fruit can be
sweet or rotten, but it doesn't change the fact that the tree
exists.

>>I've seen the big E hang in the Smithsonian and a Space shuttle
>>named for our favorite starship.
>
>Hmm... Your timeline seems to be a little skewed again.  There was
>a USN ship in the 1800's, I believe, named the Enterprise not to
>mention an aircraft carrier named after it, all before Star Trek.

Yes, of course there were (and are) enterprises before and after
(the most recent CVA-65 the current aircraft carrier, not to mention
Bull Halsey and the WWII era Big-E.  But the first shuttle orbiter
was to be named "Constitution" before the fans intervened, and NASA
acknowledged this by rolling out Enterprise to the theme from Star
Trek with the cast and Roddenberry present.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 19:42:29 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!jcc@RUTGERS.EDU (William Riker)
Subject: Re: Why ST:TNG is special to me

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
> Yes, of course there were (and are) enterprises before and after
> (the most recent CVA-65 the current aircraft carrier, not to
> mention Bull Halsey and the WWII era Big-E.  But the first shuttle
> orbiter was to be named "Constitution" before the fans intervened,
> and NASA acknowleged this by rolling out Enterprise to the theme
> from Star Trek with the cast and Roddenberry present.

Wrong, slightly.

According to Jimmy Doohan, NASA had had Star Trek fans in mind all
along.  He tells of plans to name the first, NON-OPERATIONAL shuttle
Constitution because NASA knew that it would never leave the
atmosphere.

They had planned on calling the second shuttle, the first ever SPACE
SHIP, the Enterprise, and giving it all the glory.  Because of fans,
whose intentions were sincere (our intentions, that is), the first
space ship is the Challenger (I think--I get the names mixed up).

Oh, well...

Maybe we'll have better luck with the other Enterprises, shown in
ST:TMP.  (-:

chris

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 23:18:08 GMT
From: leech@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: Why ST:TNG is special to me

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>and the WWII era Big-E.  But the first shuttle orbiter was to be
>named "Constitution" before the fans intervened, and NASA
>acknowleged this by rolling out Enterprise to the theme from Star
>Trek with the cast and Roddenberry present.

    One of Pournelle's science articles some years back contained
the amusing-if-true speculation that NASA had its revenge on these
fans in that Enterprise will never fly in space.

Jon Leech
leech@cs.unc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 01:37:58 GMT
From: unirot!bicker@RUTGERS.EDU (The Resource, Poet of Quality)
Subject: Re: Why ST:TNG is special to me

jcc@ut-ngp.UUCP (William Riker) writes:
>rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>They had planned on calling the second shuttle, the first ever
>SPACE SHIP, the Enterprise, and giving it all the glory.  Because
>of fans, whose intentions were sincere (our intentions, that is),
>the first space ship is the Challenger (I think--I get the names
>mixed up).

Uh, that's the Columbia

{ihnp4|clyde|moss|ulysses}!hoqam!bicker

------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 87 13:44:26 PST
From: Dave Combs <COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: ST:TNG Episode 5 (Where No One Has Gone Before)

***** SPOILER WARNING ******

Finally, a "new" episode, though there are certain parallels to
episodes of the original series.  I liked this one MUCH better than
any of the previous four, though the "villain" of the piece was
rather overdone.

Quick plot synopsis:
  The Enterprise is due to have its warp engines "tuned" by an
overbearing human (the "villain") and his alien assistant.  During
testing of the modifications, the ship, through the power of the
alien assistant, is hurled some 2 million light years out of the
galaxy, in a matter of seconds.  When they try and repeat the test
in reverse to return, they end up in a sort of "dream" universe,
where thinking about things makes them real (shades of the Shore
Leave planet!)  The alien, of a "Traveller" species unknown to the
Federation, is on the verge of dying, leaving the Enterprise
stranded.  He ends up living just long enough to send the ship back
where it came, then "phases out", after telling the captain that
Wesley Crusher, who has befriended him, is something akin to a
Mozart-level prodigy, but with starships.  Picard decides that he
will actively encourage Wesley's development.  End of story.

In this episode, (written by Diane Duane and ???), we are finally
beginning to see various characters assume what I hope is more their
continuing role in the series.  In particular, they've toned down
the Betamax Counselor to only a couple of minor scenes.  Security
chief Yar has faded somewhat into the background.  Hopefully she'll
reemerge being not quite so ready to knock everyone around at a
moment's notice.  Dr. Crusher is behaving more like the ship's
physician.  Data is Data, but doesn't seem to be out of place quite
as much as before.  Geordi is unobtrusive.  And the episode places
much more emphasis on the interactions of Ryker (sp?)  and Captain
Picard.  Finally, the special effects, especially the view of the
galaxy M33 after the first test, are excellent.

All in all, a great improvement on the earlier episodes.  I'd give
this a *** out of ****.

Cheers,
Dave Combs
COMBS@SUMEX-AIM-STANFORD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 18:33:42 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!syap@RUTGERS.EDU (James Fitzwilliam)
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Last Outpost

From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@relay.cs.net>
>Comments on the latest episode:
>   The captain: Since he is so obviously French (or of French
>origin) why doesn't he have an accent?  You know, something like:
>"We've been hit by les photon torpedoes! Ooh la la!"

Aha! I think I can tackle this one. In the episode Code of Honor
(gee, we're already getting ST:TNG trivia here) Data is describing
Lutan's action of abducting the Lt. as "Counting coup" (sp?), and I
quote:

Data:   "[This is from] an ancient Earth language known as French..."
Picard: "For centuries, the French language represented civilization
        at its highest..." (rather annoyed tone)
Data:   "Strange... [Begins to disagree]" (puzzled tone)
Riker:  "I suggest you drop it." ('gentle hint' tone)

This leads me to believe that the French language has gone the way
of Latin by the time the show takes place, and that despite the
French heritage of the captain he would have grown up speaking the
Standard Federation Language that _we_ hear as English through the
magic of TV.

Thus, one would not expect the captain to have a French accent just
because he's named Picard any more than I should have an Irish
accent just because my name is Fitzwilliam; even less, by four
centuries.

Disclaimer 1: I know this is inconsistent with Scotty, Chekov, et
al., and even the new engineering officer on the NCC-1701D. I wish
they'd make up their minds!  (-:

Disclaimer 2: Please, no flames on the inexactness of the quotes!
I'm not gonna fiddle finding the spot on my VCR while on line...

Disclaimer 3: Theory! It's just a theory! Just because I'm right
doesn't take away your right to disagree.  (-:

JMF
arpa: syap@tut.cc.rochester.edu
uucp: rochester!ur-tut!syap

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 21:44:32 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!rchampe@RUTGERS.EDU (Richard Champeaux)
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Last Outpost

From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@relay.cs.net>
> Comments on the latest episode:
>   The captain: Since he is so obviously French (or of French
>origin) why doesn't he have an accent?  You know, something like:
>"We've been hit by les photon torpedoes! Ooh la la!"

   I think it's more realistic that the characters don't have heavy
accents.  After all, this is several centuries from now, there are
no longer separate countries.  The heavy accents would have long ago
disappeared.  That was the one thing I didn't like about the old
Star Treks.

>   Lt.Worf: When is he finally going to get his way?  Jean-Luc, er,
>I mean the Captain, is always surrendering.  When are we going to
>see some action?  You know, like "Go ahead, make my stardate"

  I agree with this, there's too little violence in the new Star
Treks.

>   The Ferrengi: How come creatures that look and act like the
>hunchback of Notre-Dame have developed a spacefaring civilization?

   One of the things the Ferrengi accused the Federation of doing,
was withholding technology from civilizations.  Riker agreed saying
that they withheld technology from planets not ready for it.
Obviously, someone came along and gave spacefaring technology to the
Ferrengi.

>   Why did they have to fill the whole viewscreen of the Enterprise
>with the Ferrengi captain image?  I'd think lifesize would be best.
>It doesn't add to the episode's realism if one can really count all
>the pores on the Ferrengi's face!

  The Ferrengi said it was against their custom to use video, and
afterwards, one of the crew said he thought the display was
distorted.  After seeing the Ferrengi on the planet surface, I
thought it was quite obivious that they were trying to hide the fact
that they were only three and a half feet tall, since who would be
scared of someone three and a half feet tall.

>   When the starships are immobilized, the Feds think the Ferrengi
>are holding their ship with their Immenso-Matic-Freezo-Grabo-Beam.
>It seems to me that, since the warp drive was intact (they
>attempted to do w9, so it must have been working) that they would
>merely drag the Ferrengi along.  You know, action-reaction.  Or did
>they think the Immenso-Matic-Freezo-Grabo-Beam anchors the Ferrengi
>against the planet?  Or maybe they don't teach action-reaction at
>the starfleet academy anymore.

  I thought they said that the force field was damping thier power,
not some super tractor beam.  When more power was applied to the
warp drive, the force field would damp it off.  It was also draining
power from the rest of the ship, that was why near the end of the
show, they were losing even their life support.

George, maybe you should stop reading the paper while watching Star
Trek.

Rich Champeaux
Clemson University

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 87 22:12 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG bits & pieces

>  ... an alien with an unexplained German accent.

Actually, the Betamax's accent is Greek (but does have German
traces).  It is very easy to explain, since Marina Sirtis (the
Betamax's projection to our time-plane) seems to be of Greek origin
(judging bu the name) DISCLAIMER: Being Greek myself, I would now
like to state for the record that I do not like the Betamax at all,
and as a matter of fact whenever she steps in I feel pain.. pain..
sorrow.. sorrow.. etc.. etc..  A poll taken among other Greeks
supports my position. KILL THE BETAMAX.

>  ... LaForge's raybans
>  ... a blind lieutenant with sunglasses

Actually, I discovered that my car has such a contraption too.  It
is called an air filter.  The maintenance manual states: "... hold
the air filter against a light source.  If you can see light coming
through, it does not need replacement."  I almost ruined my
carburetor by not following this instruction, too.  Case closed.

Question: What are "Chinese finger puzzles"?  Do they actually
belong to Data, or did he just find them in the briefing room?  Do
such things exist in our universe?  Where do I find them?

Le Capitain reminds me of a conductor, Sir Georg Solti.  Maybe
sometime he will do his impression of "The Twilight of the Gods"
with the Enterprise Philharmonic (I assume of course they carry one;
it's a big ship :-)) I only hope that it won't be a ripoff of the
"Conscience of the King" :-)

George Barbanis

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 29-Oct  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #480
Date: 29 Oct 87 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #480
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 29 Oct 87 0915-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #480
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 29 Oct 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 480

Today's Topics:

            Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anthony & Asimov &
                    Cherryh & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Gibson &
                    Kingsbury (2 msgs) & Llewellyn (2 msgs) &
                    Moore & Vernor Vinge & Zelazny &
                    A Request & Answers (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 03:54:00 GMT
From: gunsch@b.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: New fiction?

Has anybody read the new book by Douglas Adams?  Care to critique
it?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 21:46:22 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: New fiction? (_DGHDA_, minor spoiler)

gunsch@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
> Has anybody read the new book by Douglas Adams?  Care to critique
> it?

If you mean _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_, yes, and yes,
a bit.

It definitely has a different feel from the _Hitchhiker's_ series,
with which it will of course be compared.  Whereas _HHGTTG_ was
entirely whimsical, _DGHDA_ attempts to capture mystery.  The humor
in _DGHDA_ is sometimes subtler than in the Guide.  Like _HHGTTG_,
the science fiction is mostly in the background.

On the whole, I enjoyed it.  Be warned that you'll need to know a
bit of Coleridge to completely understand the ending.

nj
...!ihnp4!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 18:39:10 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: One More on Anthony

JSCHEFF@WASH-VAX.BBN.COM:
>A long time ago (I presume pre-Xanth), Piers Anthony wrote a book
>quite unlike his more recent series.  This book, _Triple Entente_,
>lacks his usual overkill of puns and describes a political solution
>to population, crime, etc problems of a future society.  I highly
>recommend it if you can find it--it may be out in print or received
>only limited distribution

Triple Detente.

Yes, it was enjoyable, but no, it was *not* unlike his more recent
material.  The same obsessions with games, with adolescent sex
fantasies, with simple answers.

The problem with Piers Anthony's books is *not* that they're not
good.  People who pick up one (e.g. "Macroscope", "A Spell for
Chameleon", "Omnivore"...) tend to enjoy it.  The problem is that
when you've read ten of them you begin to notice that the author
seems incapable of growth.

Dani

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 03:54:00 GMT
From: gunsch@b.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: New fiction?

How about the follow-up to Fantastic Voyage - this time shrinking
down to figure out how to do a core dump on some Soviet VIP's brain?
Any comments?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 10:24:50 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!davidg@RUTGERS.EDU (David Guntner)
Subject: C.J. Cherryh / The Faded Sun

I (and a friend of mine at work) have read and greatly enjoyed
reading The Faded Sun series, by C.J. Cherryh.  It seems really
apparent that she left things wide open at the end of the third book
for a fourth book.  My friend & I would like to be able to write her
(and beg for another book! :-}), but we haven't got any ideas as to
where to write here.  Does anyone have her address?  Thanks in
advance.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4, codas}!killer!davidg
INET: davidg@killer.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 87 17:50:13 EST
From: brothers@who.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Re:  Donaldson and Mirror of Her Dreams

Well, having read through the Covenent series futilely hoping for a
grain or a shred of sympathetic behavior on the part of the
protagonists, I decided to give Donaldson another chance with his
new books. I find it incredible how reliably Donaldson kills off any
characters who you might start to like; there are still a few left
by the end of The Mirror of Her Dreams -- I guess they die in the
second book.

Donaldson is definitely a superior writer in terms of technical
skill.  However, at least in the Covenant series, I think he
committed what John Gardner called a defect of the soul, not showing
auteurial compassion for his characters (this doesn't mean you can't
kill off, torture to death, etc. your characters, it means there had
better be a good reason for it).

In Mirror, he has a really fascinating world and form of magic
(despite the fact that it is completely irrational and
contradictory). Unfortunately, the main characters, are, as usual,
complete wimps. Perhaps it is my imagination, though, but I think I
detected signs that the two may manage to break through their
wimpitude; such a thing would completely redeem the series. But, if
the characters continue to stumble around sighing about how bad
their situations are, (while they have the power to change things,
just like Covenant had), I will give Donaldson up for a bad job....
Still, at least he knows how to write in English (you couldn't tell
from the Covenant series with all that misuse and overpowering of
meanings of common words), and his fantasies seem original, which
puts him one giant step ahead of the usual elves 'n dwarves 'n
wizards 'n Evil Power fantasists...

Laurence R. Brothers
brothers@paul.rutgers.edu
{anywhere}!rutgers!paul.rutgers.edu!brothers

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 16:17:37 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Donaldson and A Man Rides Through (Spoilers)

"A Man Rides Through" is not the sequel to "Mirror of Her Dreams" --
it's the second half.  It starts where the other left off, with no
warm-up.  It is, however, a much more readable book.  In fact, I
quite enjoyed it, and kept turning the pages till I was done.

Much that was fogged in the first book is made clear in this one.
However, it does suffer from some serious weaknesses:

   There is an interesting tie-in to the Covenant trilogies in the
first book, in which it is seen that a refusal to believe in one's
own reality can be just as harmful as a refusal to believe in that
of others.  This is lost here -- the price Donaldson pays for
writing a book that is closer to standard fantasy/adventure.

   The protagonist's helplessness before the villain's sexual
overtures remains stomach-turning.

SPOILER

   It ends with a cliche Big Final Battle in which the enemy's
forces are launched one at a time against the beleagured good guys,
each time to be driven back at a cost.

Mordant's Need:  ***-

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 02:14:48 GMT
From: COK%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (R. W. Clark, K. S. C.)
Subject: Timothy Leary, Neuromancer, and all sorts of silliness

Some neat little rumors I think others might be interested in,
or already know.

Anyway, the rumors/gibberish/baldfaced lies:

Apparently, Timothy Leary (60's drug advocate, current president of
Futique Software, and recent author of a Rolling Stone article on
cyberpunk) currently has something to do with a project to make a
video game out of Neuromancer.  Anyone know more about this oddness?

More Neuromancer oddness:

I've heard that some company or other has purchased the rights to
Neuromancer and has already begun building sets and such.  Anyone
have information on this?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 18:48:33 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Courtship Rite

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com:
>The discussion of Courtship Rite reminds me that I think Kingsbury
>is a first rate SF writer.  Did Courtship Rite end his career?

He has recently written "The Moon Goddess and the Son", which is
probably in the same universe as "Courtship Rite", but takes place
only a few years from now.  It is worth reading, but you should wait
for the paperback.

It is fiction with an agenda: prospace and anti-MAD.  I found his
*arguments* about mutually assured destruction interesting reading,
but I thought he jellyfished on the dramatic solution.

*Not* as good as Courtship Rite.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 14:35:12 GMT
From: DREDICK@g.bbn.com (Donald Redick)
Subject: Courtship Rite (Kingsbury)

   Courtship Rite was published in Analog 1982.

   Feb 1, 1982
   March 1, 1982
   March 29, 1982
   May 1982

All these were from Vol. CII issues 2-5

Also, Donald Kingsbury published with Roger Arnold a Science Fact
article called The Spaceport in the November and December 1979
issues of Analog

Donald Redick
dredick@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 15:46:30 GMT
From: tower!duane@RUTGERS.EDU (Duane Morse)
Subject: WORD-BRINGER by Edward Llewellyn (mild spoiler)

Time: present

Place: Earth, East Coast US

Introduction: an alien spacecraft secretly lands in the ocean and
sends a very small probe to contact someone on the planet. Later, 6
previously-undistinguished scientists produce papers which hint at
great discoveries. Attorney and patent investigator Richard Ryan is
hired to find the source of the scientists' information. He soon
learns that the head of a ruthless financial organization is also
seeking answers.

Main storylines: Ryan's investigation; unfolding of the reason for
the alien's visit and manner of contact.

SF elements: First Contact, telepathy.

Critique: if I hadn't read three other books by this author and
given all of those books 3.5 or 4 stars, I wouldn't have ever bought
this one. I generally don't like SF books that take place in the
present. I'm glad the author's track record overcame my prejudice.
The story is fast-moving, interesting, and enjoyable. The characters
are three dimensional, and the manner of the alien's contact is
novel. The science in the book is convincing, but the main
components are adventure, good characters, and the puzzle of what
the alien is up to.

Rating: 3.5 out of 4 -- a definite keeper.

Duane Morse
...!noao!mot!anasazi!tower!duane
(602) 861-7609

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 00:36:30 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!ers!nmm@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil McCulloch)
Subject: Re: WORD-BRINGER by Edward Llewellyn (mild spoiler)

duane@tower.UUCP (Duane Morse) writes:
> my prejudice. The story is fast-moving, interesting, and
> enjoyable. The characters are three dimensional, and the manner of
> the alien's contact is novel. The science in the book is
> convincing, but the main components are adventure, good
> characters, and the puzzle of what the alien is up to.

This book sounds very much like a sequel to John Wyndham's Chocky.
The exception of course is the use of an artifact.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 21:37:38 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: Time wars

carole@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Carole Ashmore) writes:
>I'm not sure it's the one you're looking for, but a story with this
>theme is one of the best time travel stories, and indeed one of the
>best and most literate science fiction stories ever written (Which
>is why I'm posting rather than replying; I recommend it to anyone
>who hasn't already encountered it.)  It is called "Vintage Season",
>is quite old, (40s, 50s?) and, I believe, is by Henry Kuttner.

I heartily agree with your recommendation, this is a GREAT story.
However, it was by "Lawrence O'Donnell", a pseudonym used by C. L.
Moore, and occasionally Henry Kuttner (Moore's husband).  Since
Vintage Season appears in the collection "The Best of C. L. Moore",
it's pretty likely that Moore was the sole author.  Besides, it has
much more of her style than his.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu 29 Oct 87 01:31:06-EST
From: Peter G. Trei <OC.TREI@CU20B.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: New Vinge Anthology

     A couple months ago, SFL hosted a discussion of Vernor Vinge,
in particular his 'Peace War' universe. Mention was made of one
uncollected story in that melieu, 'The Ungoverned', and I despaired
of ever seeing it.
     Well, Baen Books has just brought out a paperback anthology of
Vinge, titled "True Names and Other Dangers". (ISBN: 0-671-65363-6).
It seems to be a collection of his less available fiction; aside
from "The Ungoverned" and "True Names" (which was a serious
progenitor of both Marooned in Real Time and the whole cyberpunk
thing), but also "Bookworm, Run!", "Long Shot", and "The Peddler's
Apprentice" (with Joan D. Vinge).

Peter Trei
oc.trei@cu20b.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 14:50:26 PST (Wednesday)
From: Cate3.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Is there an updated Amber time line?

     Last year when "Blood of Amber" came out, someone put together
a real nice time line, or a list of events in the Amber Universe.
Has anyone updated this to include all of the information for "Sign
of Chaos"?  (Does anyone still have a copy of the one from last
year?)
     Thanks in advance.  Have a good day.

Henry III

[Moderator's Note: The timeline is too big to include in a digest.
It is currently in the SF-LOVERS archives at Rutgers.  The file is
T:<SFL>AMBER-TIMELINE.TXT on RED.RUTGERS.EDU and is available to
those with FTP access *ONLY* via the anonymous login function.
Those readers without FTP access will not be able to retrieve a copy
at this time.]

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 23:47:28 GMT
From: maslak@UNIX.SRI.COM (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Story Title Request

HELP!

OK, all you wise folk out there...  which female SF author wrote the
wonderful short stories about The People, refugees from a crashed
spaceship who were "passing for human" in Appalachia? One of the
stories was made into a TV movie with Kim Darby awhile ago, about a
teacher with "special" students who shuffled when they walked so
their feet wouldn't leave the ground....

Beautifully written sensitive stories; someone on soc.motss just
alluded to the story above and I drew a blank on the author.

Valerie Maslak

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 14:22:37 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Story Title Request

maslak@sri-unix.UUCP (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>OK, all you wise folk out there...  which female SF author wrote
>the wonderful short stories about The People, refugees from a
>crashed spaceship who were "passing for human" in Appalachia? ...

Zenna Henderson.  Most of the stories originally appeared in F&SF,
but I believe two book collections are now out.  One of them is
called The People - No Different Flesh.

These stories were perhaps the inspiration for the two 'Witch
Mountain' movies from Disney Studios.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 13:50:52 GMT
From: mtune!homxc!sdave@RUTGERS.EDU (David Blakeley)
Subject: Re: Story Title Request

maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) writes:
> OK, all you wise folk out there...  which female SF author wrote
> the wonderful short stories about The People, refugees from a
> crashed spaceship who were "passing for human"

Yes, they are nice, aren't they... The author is Zenna Henderson;
One collection was _The People: No Different Flesh_; a collection of
her short stories that also has one or two "People" stories in it is
_The Anything Box_.

David Blakeley
(201)-615-5508
...ihnp4!homxc!sdave

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 20:02:41 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Story Title Request

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
> Zenna Henderson.  Most of the stories originally appeared in F&SF,
> but I believe two book collections are now out.  One of them is
> called The People - No Different Flesh.
>
> These stories were perhaps the inspiration for the two 'Witch
> Mountain' movies from Disney Studios.

Nope, the "Witch Mountain" movies were based on the "Witch Mountain"
books by Alexander Key. He has written a lot of very good, very
spooky sf books for young adults. I recommend you go to your local
library (I'm sure most of them are out of print) and read some of
his work.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #481
Date:  2 Nov 87 0831-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #481
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 87 0831-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #481
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 481

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Key &
                     Lewis (2 msgs) & Martin & Niven &
                     Spider Robinson & Silverberg &
                     Story Requests (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 10:10:38 GMT
From: lindsay@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Lindsay F. Marshall)
Subject: Re: New fiction? (_DGHDA_, minor spoiler)

The new Douglas Adam's is complete trash. There are about 3 good
jokes in it and nothing else. The book was very obviously put
together under pressure as a money making exercise (and boy did it
make him money!). If you look at it you can see the joins where he
has slung together various unrelated bits of writing to try to make
a longer book. As another poster has pointed out you do need to know
about Coleridge to understand the ending and even then it is so
badly written that it isn't obvious what has happened at all. I had
to read the last section 3 times (what a chore!) to even begin to
grasp what he had intended - not a sign of a deep, insightful book,
just a sign of VERY bad writing.

This book is even worse than "So Long and Thanks for the Fish", so
that will tell you something! Everyone has one book in them, they
say, and Douglas Adams has had his one with HHGTTG. He should quit
now while he's ahead.

Lindsay F. Marshall
JANET: lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot
ARPA: lindsay%cheviot.newcastle@ucl-cs
UUCP: <UK>!ukc!cheviot!lindsay
PHONE: +44-91-2329233

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 19:06:52 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!aeusesef@RUTGERS.EDU (sean fagan)
Subject: Re: The Mirror of Her Dreams by Stephen Donaldson

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>Was anybody else struck by the fact that he has merely substituted
>one irritating background whine for another?

Sometimes.  The problem is that the entire five to six hundred pages
take place in only a short time, and the first half of the book
takes place in something like a week or so (I believe).  Then, you
must realize that this poor lady is emotionally crippled (and not a
little bit insane), and then add to this the confusion she would
undoubtedly feel (I know *I* would be on my way to insanity if
something like that happened to me!).

Now, about Covenant: Donaldson screwed up here.  Leprosy CAN be
cured, and a cure has been around for quite a while.  However, if
you ignore that, then his personality makes sense.  How would you
feel if you lost a limb, got hit by a car, woke up in a strange
looking land, where magic was possible, and, on top of all this, had
regrown your arm?  Wouldn't you feel that it was a dream?  Covenant
couldn't afford to dream: if he forgot to keep control, he could
damage himself very easily (no feelings in his arms, remember?).
His personality was a bit overdone in that extent, but not a whole
lot.  (I like the series, ok?)

>But I find the plot and storyline more engaging here than in The
>Land.  I found myself reading it eagerly, rather than just
>ploughing through the thing for the sake of finishing.  Also, I
>have the impression this was pointed out before and I'm just not
>remembering, but... how long do I have to wait for the paperback of
>A Man Rides Through?

I, also, enjoyed the book (good writing style; normally I wouldn't
enjoy a book that has so little humor 8-)), but, when I got to the
last 100 pages or so, and found out that it wasn't going to end, I
got very upset.  It was worse than reading _The_Architect_of_Sleep_
(another good book, authored by S. R. Boyett; buy it).  Makes me
wish I'd waited before buying the second book (so help me, if he
leaves off the ending to that, I'm going to write a nasty letter to
him!)...

Sean Eric Fagan
Office of Computing/Communications Resources
Suite 2600
5670 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
(213) 852 5742
1GTLSEF@CALSTATE.BITNET
{litvax, rdlvax, psivax, hplabs, ihnp4}!csun!aeusesef

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 14:41:06 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: brothers@who.rutgers.edu
Subject: Donaldson and Mirror of Her Dreams

I read this book without realizing it was part I of a trilogy.  Are
the other books written yet?  What are they called?

Yours,
Danny

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 1987  11:02 EST (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
To: firth@a.sei.cmu.edu
Subject: Story Title Request

The Witch Mountain movies were inspired by (surprise!) "Escape to
Witch Mountain" by Alexander Key.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 15:39:00 GMT
From: stout@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: C.S.Lewis & E.R.Eddison

>stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>>
>>Regarding Eddison's Zimiamvian trilogy:
>>
>>C.S. Lewis once commented that he much disliked the world of
>>the trilogy, though he loved Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros.
>
>Do you have a citation?  My impression was that Lewis approved the
>trilogy as literature though he abhorred its underlying philosophy.
>I seem to recall his using the phrase "a new climate of the
>imagination" about Zimiamvia.

   My major reference for C.S. Lewis' views on sf is the book "Of
Other Worlds", edited by Walter Hooper -- a marvelous volume.  When
I went back to it to try to verify my recollection, this is what I
found:

   ... To be stories at all they must be series of events: but it
   must be understood that this series -- the *plot*, as we call it
   -- is only really a net whereby to catch something else.  The
   real theme may be, and perhaps usually is, something that has no
   sequence in it, something other than a process and much more like
   a state or quality.... I must confess that the net very seldom
   does succeed in catching the bird.  Morris in The_Well_
   at_the_World's_End came near to success ...
       But it does sometimes succeed.  In the works of the late
   E.R.Eddison it succeeds completely.  You may like or dislike his
   invented worlds (I myself like that of The_Worm_Ouroboros and
   strongly dislike that of Mistress_of_Mistresses) but there is no
   quarrel between the theme and the articulation of the story.
   Every episode, every speech, helps to incarnate what the author
   is imagining.  You could spare none of them.  It takes the whole
   story to build up that strange blend of renaissance luxury and
   northern hardness.  The secret here is the style, and especially
   the style of the dialogue.  These proud, reckless, amorous people
   create themselves and the whole atmosphere of their world chiefly
   by talking.

   This is from the essay "On Stories", pp. 18-19 in this volume;
the essay originally appeared in Essays_Presented_to_Charles_
Williams, which also had Tolkien's "On Fairy-Stories", I believe.  I
thought this essay collection had other lengthy passages on Eddison,
but I could only find brief references to the Worm.  The frequency
with which he recommends the book gives the impression he regards it
highly.  I would be interested in the source of the "new climate of
the imagination" quote.

Bryan Stout

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 16:39:40 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: C.S.Lewis & E.R.Eddison

stout@uiucdcsm.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>I would be interested in the source of the "new climate of the
>imagination" quote.

The following is Lewis' "A Tribute to E.R.Eddison" from
Of_This_and_Other_Worlds:

It is very rarely that a middle-aged man finds an author who gives
him, what he knew so often in his teens and twenties, the sense of
having opened a new door.  One had thought those days were past.
Eddison's heroic romances disproved it.  Here was a new literary
species, a new rhetoric, a new climate of the imagination.  Its
effect is not evanescent, for the whole life and strength of a
singularly massive personality lies behind it.  Still less, however,
is it mere self-expression, appealing only to those whose
subjectivity resembles the author's: admirers of Eddison differ in
age and sex and include some (like myself) to whom his world is
alien and even sinister.  In a word, these are works, first and
foremost, of _art_.  And they are irreplaceable.  Nowhere else shall
we meet this precise blend of hardness and luxury, of lawless
speculation and sharply realized detail, of the cynical and the
magnanimous.  No other author can be said to remind us of Eddison.

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 18:43:16 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!aeusesef@RUTGERS.EDU (sean fagan)
Subject: Wild Cards III: Aces High Mini-review (light SPOILERS)

The first book in the series was "Wild Cards," and contained a bunch
of short stories (well, one or two longish ones were thrown in),
each written by a different author (although one or two got to write
more than one), and was about a semi-plausible alternate history.
The second book, like the first, contained more short stories, but
these were related somewhat, and the characters by different authors
got to mingle.  The third book is just that: a book, with actual
chapters instead of stories (stories can pretty much stand on their
own, maybe with an introduction; chapters don't).  (side note: I am
oft impressed with George R. R. Martin's [the editor] writing, this
time, I am *VERY* impressed with the editing he's done.)  It is a
continuation of the plot discussed in the second book (they get
together and try to get the Astronomer [not really, but that's close
enough without giving away a whole lot 8-)]), and all takes place
within 25 hours, exactly 40 years after the infamous day J.B. fouled
up.  Most of the characters from the second book are there, with
only a couple of new ones (who are minor characters, anyway), with
some of the more minor characters from the second book (i.e.,
Bagabond) having a larger role.  Some (such as the Great and
Powerful Turtle) are strangely absent.  I enjoyed the book, and if
you liked the either of the first two, you will probably enjoy this
one very much.  I think it would have been a great way to end a
trilogy, but the inside of the front cover says that there is
another one coming out in Spring (although it doesn't give the
title).  This leads me to believe that there may be one or two more:
_Trump_Card_ will almost certainly be the last, and there may be a
_Black_Queen_ in there somewhere.  If you haven't read any of the
books, and if you like stories which tend to blend science and
fantasy, you should probably buy the first one and see if you like
it.

There, no major spoilers 8-).

Sean Eric Fagan
Office of Computing/Communications Resources
Suite 2600
5670 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
(213) 852 5742
1GTLSEF@CALSTATE.BITNET
{litvax, rdlvax, psivax, hplabs, ihnp4}!csun!aeusesef

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 22:57:39 GMT
From: smann@ihlpa.att.com (Mann)
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

>Hold on here.  The reason, as I see it that the State used humans
>for Rammers was that only a human would have the neccessary skills,
>don't ask me which, to arrive at certain conclusions....

To change this discussion a bit, I submit that the State used humans
for Rammers was not because computers couldn't do the job - I'm sure
they could have, but because they had a corpsicle who was available
and who owed the State.  What else were they going to do with him?

Sherry Mann
ihnp4!ihlpa!smann

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 87 23:07:48 GMT
From: news@decwrl.dec.com (News)
Subject: re: PRINCESS BRIDE/Callahan's similarities

From:   bucsb!boreas    (Michael Justice)
> I was re-reading _Callahan's_Secret_ the other night, and noticed
> a he** of a lot of similarities between the guitar wizard in
> "Pyotr's Story" and the swordmaker wizard in _The_Princess_Bride_.

[Descriptions of similarities]

> So, what I'm wondering is, what's going on?  Did Robinson swipe
> the idea from _TPB_?  Or is it (God alone knows how it could be)
> coincidence?? or another inside joke, like Ralph von Wau Wau?

Back in 1980 (a year before "Pyotr's Story" was published), Ace
Books published an anthology edited by Spider entitled THE BEST OF
ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS, in which Spider reprints a bunch of his
favorite stories and then asks the authors of those stories to
choose *their* favorites. One of the stories that Spider chose is an
excerpt from THE PRINCESS BRIDE (the duel between Inigo and the Man
in Black on the Cliffs of Insanity). In his introduction to the
excerpt, Spider calls THE PRINCESS BRIDE "the best damned heroic
fantasy you'd ever want to read".

It's clear to me (and it was clear when I first read "Pyotr's Story"
in 1981) that the similarities between Spider's story and Goldman's
novel is what's known as *homage* (I'm tempted to add the nameless
critic's line about *homage* being French for "rip off").

I'd forgotten about that bit from "Pyotr's Story", though. Thanks
for reminding me.

Incidentally, in case anyone's interested, Goldman's choice for
Spider's anthology was Robert Sheckley's "Seventh Victim".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 16:04:58 GMT
From: mimsy!cvl!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan
From: Faidley)
Subject: Re: Robert Silverberg

greg@istbt.UUCP (Greg Reeve) writes:
> A while ago I read 'Lord Valentines Castle' by Robert Silverberg
> and thought that it was a good read (I couldn't put it down) and
> am currently reading the sequel called 'The Majipoor Chronicles'.
> After reading some of the Majipoor Chronicles (sorry Majipoor is
> the name of the planet) I still like Silverberg's writing and
> would recommend it to any of you out there.

"The Majipoor Chronicles" has been out for about 4 years now and
after reading it all those years ago I still can remember most of
it.  That's how good it is.  After you finish reading "The Majipoor
Chronicles" I would suggest that you read "Valentine Pontifix".
This is a more direct sequel to "Lord Valentine's Castle" since "The
Majipoor Chronicles" is more of a history lesson (the most
interesting and engaging history lesson I have ever had.)
"Pontifix" deals with the problem of the metamorphs in the Majipoor
society.  Truly great reading.  I believe that I read on the net
about a month or two ago that he is working on a new Majipoor book.
I hope that this is the case and I will be eagerly awaiting it.

Juan

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 01:10:24 GMT
From: jchung@cad.Berkeley.EDU (James E. Chung)
Subject: Help with Story Name/Author

The most recent episode of Star Trek the Next Generation (the Where
No One has Gone Before episode) reminded me of a short story I read
a long time ago.

From what I can remember, it was a story of a guy who carried a
wrench around with him all the time.  He hung around with the head
engineer of the space program and appeared to have no useful
function.  However, he really was the source of the engineers
inspired ideas.

It turns out that this guy was the infant form of a space-faring
race whose young are deposited on some planet, and who can only
return to space by causing the existing primitive society to advance
technologically enough to develop space travel.

This is all I can remember about the story.  Any help as to the
title or the author would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 22:11 EDT
From: KROVETZ%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Jewish SF

A long time ago I read an anthology of Jewish SF called "Wandering
Stars" (edited by Jack Dann).  I heard there was a sequel to this
book ("More Wandering Stars"?) that was edited by Gardner Dozois.  I
checked Books in Print, but couldn't find it.  Does anyone know if
the title is correct, and where I could get a copy?  Any other
pointers to Jewish SF?

Thanks,
Bob
Krovetz@umass

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #482
Date:  2 Nov 87 0841-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #482
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 87 0841-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #482
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 482

Today's Topics:

          Films - Prince of Darkness & Lifeforce (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 15:35:31 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: PRINCE OF DARKNESS

                         PRINCE OF DARKNESS
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  A very demanding and very rewarding
     horror film.  Horror and science fiction combine together to
     make a film for real long-standing horror film fans only.
     Lots of old stuff but a lot that even the long-time fans have
     not seen before.  The last half-hour is a letdown, but it is
     hard to imagine an ending fitting the buildup.  Rating: +2

     A lot of horror films are coming out about now.  Released in
one weekend are both PRINCE OF DARKNESS and NIGHT FLYERS.  Earllier
this year Clive Barker directed and wrote HELLRAISER.  BELIEVERS,
based on a respected horror novel, came out this year.  Then there
were a number of minor pieces of the NEAR DARK ilk.  Horror, I
understand, sells well on videocassette, so it is pretty tough for a
horror film to lose money.  I was vaguely aware that the
aforementioned PRINCE OF DARKNESS was from John Carpenter, but he
has had a spotty career.  I like his DARK STAR, HALLOWEEN, THE
THING, and maybe a few others.  His most recent, BIG TROUBLE IN
LITTLE CHINA, was a good idea that went amazingly bad.  But then
things are not always what we expect.  PRINCE OF DARKNESS, for
example, turns out to be the best thing that Carpenter has ever
done.  It may well be the fantasy film I will want to remember from
1987.

     For 2000 years the Brotherhood of Sleep have kept secret what
Christianity was *really* about--have kept secret the true nature of
evil and of the Devil, a secret with roots far older than humanity.
Now, 2000 years after they discovered the secret, it is becoming
important to understand it once more.  The laws of physics are
changing and the focus of all that is happening is one small rundown
church in Los Angeles.  There a group of scientists, their graduate
students, and a priest are trying to unravel the mystery of what is
happening.  And what is happening will tie together particle
physics, mathematics, and orthodox Christianity.

     PRINCE OF DARKNESS has everything it needs but the payoff.  The
final third of the film is good Carpenter-style suspense, but it
fails to live up to the promise of the first two thirds of the
movie.  If it had, this would have been an excellent science fiction
film as well as a good horror film.  As it is, PRINCE OF DARKNESS is
rich in ideas and has some good suspense to boot, but doesn't quite
deliver.

     I really enjoyed the film, but have to give this film a
qualified recommendation.  It takes a lot of effort just to
understand as much of what is going on as the director wants to show
you.  There are many scenes that are deliberately disturbing and a
lot more that are violent, though it has been pointed out to me that
there is very little actual blood.  If you haven't seen many horror
films, you may not find this one worth your effort; there are a lot
of other good films out there.  If you have seen a lot of horror
films, you will recognize little ideas here and there from (are you
ready?) DRACULA, THE EXORCIST, THE THING, THE QUIET EARTH, THE
LEGEND OF HELL HOUSE, THE NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD, ESCAPE FROM NEW
YORK, FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH, THE KEEP, and THE TERMINATOR.
Yes, there are recognizable ideas inspired by each of these, yet
there are so many new ideas in this horror film that the familiar
ones are outnumbered.

     The name of the man who crafted all these ideas into a single
screenplay is Martin Quatermass.  Perhaps that is a pseudonym and
even a film reference.  Since some of the images, like the marauding
street schizophrenics, are reminiscent of images out of Carpenter's
ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK and ASSAULT ON PRECINCT 13, it is at least
conceivable that the film was written by Carpenter himself.  In any
case, it is often hard to follow exactly what is happening; the film
makes the audience work a little.  And a little knowledge of
paradoxical 20th Century physics helps to set the atmosphere (that's
a remarkable statement all by itself!).

     If you are tired of seeing old ideas rehashed in horror films,
PRINCE OF DARKNESS will show you a lot you haven't seen before.  You
people (and me) who wanted to see a horror film of power in Clive
Barker's HELLRAISER: sorry, Barker didn't deliver, but PRINCE OF
DARKNESS is what you were expecting.  I'd give it a high +2 on the
-4 to +4 scale.

     DISCLAIMER: As might be obvious, a film that audaciously plays
with ideas will appeal to me more than to the viewing public at
large.  A prime example is LIFEFORCE, itself a film that gave a
science fictional alternate interpretation to traditional beliefs.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 18:03:21 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!lewando@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Lewandoski)
Subject: Re: PRINCE OF DARKNESS

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>      DISCLAIMER: As might be obvious, a film that audaciously
> plays with ideas will appeal to me more than to the viewing public
> at large.  A prime example is LIFEFORCE, itself a film that gave a
> science fictional alternate interpretation to traditional beliefs.

    Gosh, did you really like LIFEFORCE? I always find it
distracting when the audience keeps laughing at lines that weren't
supposed to be funny.  This happened in LIFEFORCE more than any
other picture I've seen.  Actually, other than agreeing with
everyone around me that the screenplay was a clunker, I don't
remember too much about the movie, but bits & pieces.  If you care
to, could you briefly elaborate your comment?

Mark Lewandoski

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 01:58:53 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: PRINCE OF DARKNESS

lewando@phri.UUCP (Mark Lewandoski) writes:
>     Gosh, did you really like LIFEFORCE?

Absolutely.

> I always find it distracting when the audience keeps laughing at
> lines that weren't suppose to be funny.

I am not really fond of audiences these days.  At least in my local
theater they seem to be of steadily dropping intellect.  These days
they seem more interested in creating disturbances than in seeing
the film.  I hardly trust a modern audience to respect or even
recognize a nifty science fiction idea.

> This happened in LIFEFORCE more than any other picture Ive seen.

It doesn't surprise me.  On top of the idea, it was done in an
unfamiliar and unusual style, and that doesn't sit will will modern
audiences who laugh at what they don't recognize.  There were bits
thrown in I didn't care for, but a lot that was really good.

> Actually, other than agreeing with everyone around me that the
> screenplay was a clunker, I dont remember too much about the
> movie, but bits & pieces.  If you care to, could you briefly
> elaborate your comment?

Alien invasion movies have been done since since DAY THE EARTH STOOD
STILL.  Almost always either the aliens are bucolic friendlies or
use fairly standard ways to beat us into submission, they have
blaster rays of one sort or another, or they drink blood like THE
THING (the first one), or they chew up people as in ALIEN.  A few
slightly more imaginative ones take over brains or suck up atomic
power.  The first really creative invasion story I remember was FIVE
MILLION YEARS TO EARTH.  They invaded long ago and altered us,
leaving traces of their psychology in our minds.  Lest someone point
out that 2001 was also an interesting science fiction film of the
same year as FIVE MILLION YEARS, both dealing with human uplift,
FIVE MILLION is based on a TV play from 1959.  Also it unambiguously
looks at modern implications of the uplift.  Kneale, the author, did
a lot more than Clarke who only suggested that a second uplift may
be coming.

The next really novel invasion idea came from LIFEFORCE.  Lifeforce
is that force that is the difference between living matter and the
same matter but dead.  The aliens live on that energy, but have to
figure out efficient ways to collect it in their energy absorber,
which can not come down to the surface of the planet.  So they drop
down three seed creatures who are in some senses lifeforce-leaky.
Because these creatures leak lifeforce they need to get new
lifeforce on a regular basis, like people bleeding profusely need
blood transfusions, even though they may continue to leak blood.
But the creatures suck lifeforce so fiercely that their victims
become also leaky.  So you have a chain reaction.  More and more
creatures become victims and have to suck and leak lifeforce.  Soon
their are pools of leaked lifeforce handing around and that the
collector ship can suck up.  Human beings are just part of a process
to create lifeforce much like we use bacteria to create yogurt and
cheese.  (It fact it wouldn't surprise me if this is very much like
processes we use for food production.  I know we eat live yogurt
cultures and consider that healthful.)  After we are able to destroy
the the flow of fresh lifeforce, the collector ship shows no
reaction, it just quietly moves on to the next planet scheduled for
harvesting.  It ignores the fact that its chain reaction is still
going on below.

ALIENS has marginally more interesting characters (like the
unkillable kid) but the creature itself just eats people in fairly
prosaic ways.  Very little is added to its interest value after
ALIEN.  Now I ask you, which film really shows more imagination and
has more engaging new ideas?  I would probably give both a +2, but I
have more respect for LIFEFORCE.  It had a lot tougher of a job
getting its ideas across.  The actors are not engaging, but the
parts really are acted very close to what that characters should be.
I did not like the life-after-death aspect of LIFEFORCE, but I was
willing to suspend disbelief.  There are a lot of strange scenes,
but they are not unrealistic given the premise.

Did that elaborate sufficiently?

Oh, and if you think LIFEFORCE was utter tripe, you probably should
skip PRINCE OF DARKNESS which has many of the same faults and
virtues.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 17:51:51 GMT
From: mshapiro@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (E. F. Hutton)
Subject: Re: PRINCE OF DARKNESS (Really Lifeforce)

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>The next really novel invasion idea came from LIFEFORCE.  Lifeforce
>is that force that is the difference between living matter and the
>same matter but dead.  The aliens live on that energy, but have to
>figure out efficient ways to collect it in their energy absorber,
>which can not come down to the surface of the planet.  So they drop
>down three seed creatures who are in some senses lifeforce-leaky.
>Because these creatures leak lifeforce they need to get new
>lifeforce on a regular basis, like people bleeding profusely need
>blood transfusions, even though they may continue to leak blood.
>But the creatures suck lifeforce so fiercely that their victims
>become also leaky.  So you have a chain reaction.  More and more
>creatures become victims and have to suck and leak
>lifeforce........

One might also compare and contrast this storyline with Stoker's
Dracula.  There are quite a few similarities between the two.

Points to consider:

   Sucking lifeforce (blood) from living victims.
   Victims become new 'monsters'.
   Chain reaction.
   Continually needing more lifeforce (blood).
   The origin of the 'monster' is from something not well understood
      (i.e. alien race vs. undead)

There are some other similarities, but if I go on much longer, my
boss will have me doing things that make me shudder.

Mitch Shapiro
Teknowledge, Inc.
1850 Embarcadero Rd.
Palo Alto, CA  94303
{hplabs|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|sri-unix}
mshapiro@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 22:37:11 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: PRINCE OF DARKNESS (Really Lifeforce)

mshapiro@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (E. F. Hutton) writes:
> One might also compare and contrast this storyline with Stoker's
> Dracula.  There are quite a few similarities between the two.
>   Sucking lifeforce (blood) from living victims.
>   Victims become new 'monsters'.
>   Chain reaction.
>   Continually needing more lifeforce (blood).
>   The origin of the 'monster' is from something not well
>      understood

I should have mentioned this.  Not so much that LIFEFORCE is similar
to DRACULA in particular, but it is connected in with vampires in
general.  In the novel (THE SPACE VAMPIRES), Colin Wilson claims we
are all vampires to varying degrees.  The aliens are just much
better at it than we are.  Yes, the book explicitly and the film
implicitly is all about a plague of vampires.  They are intended to
put a science fictional interpretation on vampirism.  (PRINCE OF
DARKNESS and FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH are also films that put
traditional beliefs into a science fiction context.)  I am not sure
that LIFEFORCE is closer to DRACULA than it is to a number of other
vampire films.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 14:45:41 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: LIFEFORCE (was Re: PRINCE OF DARKNESS)

I have to side with Mark Leeper (somewhat) on this. I thought
LIFEFORCE has a number of flaws, and the result was rather
disappointing, but I didn't think it was *nearly* as bad as most
people make it out to be. At worst, it was tepid. All in all, I
didn't feel my time and money was wasted when I saw it, though I
have no desire to see it again.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 20:05:17 GMT
From: koko@uthub.toronto.edu (M. Kokodyniak)
Subject: Re: PRINCE OF DARKNESS

lewando@phri.UUCP (Mark Lewandoski) writes:
>leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
>>      DISCLAIMER: As might be obvious, a film that audaciously
>> plays with ideas will appeal to me more than to the viewing
>> public at large.  A prime example is LIFEFORCE, itself a film
>> that gave a science fictional alternate interpretation to
>> traditional beliefs.
>     Gosh, did you really like LIFEFORCE?

And even worse, LIFEFORCE was yet another vampire movies.  I am
getting tired of vampire movies.  It seems that the movie industry,
in making vampire movies, is only interested in minimizing costs and
maximizing profits.  (So what's new?)  Nowadays, before I see any
horror movie, I try to find out if it contains vampires.  If it
does, then I don't bother seeing it.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 18:43:35 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: LifeForce

I think what Mark Leeper liked about LifeForce was Colin Wilson's
book.

The movie itself was bad to mediocre movie-making.  Kind of like
saying "Dune was a good movie because it was based on a fine Frank
Herbert book."

This surprises me because I usually see Mr. Leeper as a capable
critic but a very bad reviewer.

The movie "LifeForce" had bad acting.  And it tried for far too much
scope.  It wanted to be a story about characters and the
relationship between the Astronaut and the female vampire (whose
breasts were some of the most astounding film breasts in my recent
memory), but it ended up being about the destruction of London.
Very disjointed at the end.

The movie was unable to communicate what it wanted as it progressed.
Because of that, it lost its aura of horror.  A horror movie can't
lose that or it just looks silly.  That's why cinema goers laughed
at this movie.

Now I'm a vampire fan (with Anne Rice's wonderful books, who isn't
these days?) but it would need both a high devotion to vampires and
a love of Colin Wilson's book to keep somebody at the right level
with this film.

Thus from a reviewer's standpoint and a critic's standpoint, a bad
film.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #483
Date:  2 Nov 87 0859-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #483
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 87 0859-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #483
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 483

Today's Topics:

              Miscellaneous - Future Police (8 msgs) &
                              Filksong

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 15:15:29 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Future Police Speculations Needed

What will a police station/police fortress be like in the 2030's?

I am in the process of writing Yet Another Great American Cyberpunk
Novel (or at any rate a novel with touches of cyber in it; not too
much punk; but the world is Gibson-esque), and knowing what fertile
minds netters have, and knowing how easy it would be for me to miss
the obvious and leave out the inevitable, I thought I'd ask for some
ideas.

The world the story is set in is darker than this one, but not
thoroughly hostile yet.  Society is affluent enough that computers
are all-pervasive, and most learning and working is done while
jacked in.  Organ theft is the major crime, along with the usual
mugging, murder, robbery, etc., not to mention electronic crime.

What changes will have taken place to allow the police to deal with
crime fifty or sixty years from now?  What will the police be like?

It's a very minor part of the story, but I'd like to get it right.
Any ideas you have, send them along.  (And if I ever get published
you can have your name in print in the acknowledgements if you
want).

Thanks in advance.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 21:58:04 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!stadler@RUTGERS.EDU (Andy Stadler)
Subject: Re: Future Police Speculations Needed

laura@haddock.isc.com writes:
>What will a police station/police fortress be like in the 2030's?

Simple.  ROBOCOP!!!!!

Andy Stadler

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 19:35:09 GMT
From: masticol@trex.rutgers.edu (Stephen P. Masticola)
Subject: Re: Future Police Speculations Needed

laura@haddock.ISC.COM writes:
> What will a police station/police fortress be like in the 2030's?

Likely prepared for a small-scale war, but operating under an uneasy
truce with the major vendors of organized crime. Murder-for-organs
will be acceptable to the police, as long as it doesn't happen in
the wrong place or to the wrong person. The police may be financed
through a protection scheme. (Pay up or fight 'em yourself.) Police
and the big organized crime syndicates will co-ordinate to eliminate
the small guys. In this way, a semblance of order is maintained for
those who can afford it.

The baddies may have anything up to fission bombs and
(genetic-engineered) viruses, and the police will realize this and
act accordingly. There will be a perpetual game of
"push-me-shove-you" between police and the crime syndicates.

Smart bullets and lasers will replace "dumb" handguns as weapons.
Cops will augment their own senses with cybernetic devices, which
the crooks will also have.

The ability to interface electronics to the brain implies that
machine-assisted telepathic (MAT) communication will be possible.
The police will use this to communicate with each other and to
extract information from unwilling informants. (The latter practice
will be _highly_ illegal, but its victims will be ordered to forget
it ever took place.)

Police may work under direct interface to an "intelligence
augmentation system." The cops will likely be very suspicious of AIs
in their heads, and will not accept MAT communication with them.

> The world the story is set in is darker than this one, but not
> thoroughly hostile yet.  Society is affluent enough that computers
> are all-pervasive, and most learning and working is done while
> jacked in.

Then it's likely the police will work while jacked in, or will at
least make extensive use of softs while on the job. The cops will
have to have some people who can catch the cowboys, i.e., their own
cowboys.  If they're lucky enough to get people skilled in that sort
of thing who want to do police work, great. Otherwise, they will
have to bribe or blackmail (possibly in the same way Case was
blackmailed) illegals to do police work, a very dangerous
proposition (since they'd be letting criminals into their own
system!) Either type of cyber-lawman would be a high-profile target
for the bad guys.

> Organ theft is the major crime, along with the usual mugging,
> murder, robbery, etc., not to mention electronic crime.

So they'll have to get some geneticists, too, to trace stolen
organs, or have gadgets that can be used for this purpose. (DNA type
matching.) Other than this, I'd think police action against
organlegging would resemble action against the present related
crimes (murder-for-hire, fencing, medicine-w/o-license, etc.) Tests
for bootleg organs will be required along with by-then routine
mandatory testing for drugs and disease. Citizens may be required to
carry embedded chips identifying them and all organs they have
(legally) had transplanted. Forging these chips (and altering
databases to correspond) will be a lucrative sideline for the bad
guys.

By the way, here's an additional new type of crime (akin to cyanide
in the Tylenol, or mabye subliminal advertising): suppose someone
starts putting viruses in the softs that allow hypnotic control of
the affected party? Even if the softs can't control the user, they
may cause the person using the softs to act on advice harmful to the
user or beneficial to the criminal. (Personally, I would be hard put
to trust _anything_ that gets plugged into my brain.)

Good luck on your novel - I hope this stuff isn't _too_ sinister for
your purposes.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 00:52:02 GMT
From: wenn@FRODO.GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU (John Wenn)
Subject: Re: Future Police Speculations Needed

Although it isn't really cyberpunk (it isn't hi-tech enough nor
gritty enough), one good book that speculates about mid-21st century
police work is "The Doppleganger Gambit" by Lee Killough.  It is
really a police procedural novel set in the near future, but the
setting is very well realised.  For example, the police are called
LEO's (Law Enforcement Officers), and the implications of this
permeate the novel nicely [Member of a street gang to a female leo:
"Here pussy, pussy, pussy"].  Recommended both for the background
and as a novel.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 13:37:53 GMT
From: norman@husc4.harvard.edu (John Norman)
Subject: Re: Future Police Speculations Needed

No matter what the technical capabilities of the future police, it
seems to me that you should consider the changes in the
institutional structure of the police "department."  It seems
doubtful to me that the future police will be under the control of
any monolithic governmental control; rather, there will be multiple
independent police departments, each specializing in a different
service which the government will contract with.  There will be much
policing of the police; the "crooks" will be able to purchase the
power of the police, etc.  What did Dickens say?  They do the police
in different voices?

John Norman
Department of English and American Literature and Language
Warren House Box D-12
Harvard University
Cambridge, MA  02138
617/495-2533 (Official business ONLY)
UUCP:      harvard!husc4!norman
Internet:  norman@hulaw1.HARVARD.EDU
BITNET:    NORMAN@HULAW1

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 05:33:43 GMT
From: AE4%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Jon Acheson)
Subject: Re: Future Police Speculations Needed

masticol@trex.rutgers.edu (Stephen P. Masticola) writes:
>The baddies may have anything up to fission bombs and
>(genetic-engineered) viruses, and the police will realize this and
>act accordingly. There will be a perpetual game of
>"push-me-shove-you" between police and the crime syndicates.

   It's a nice thought, but I hardly think so.  For one thing,
setting off a tacnuke in your own city is _stupid_ - fallout and
excessive carnage are bad for business, and you're likely to scare
the civilian government doing something rash, like declaring martial
law.  Furthermore, you are going to have to operate in the
neighborhood afterwards, and having to wear radiation/biowarfare
armor wherever you go would be a genuine nuisance.
   What might be more likely would be for the evil slime to develop
highly trained heavily-armed fast-strike squads.  These would be
made up of specialists, deploying heavy firepower, but able to be
highly selective in their targets (picture a vulcan autocannon
blasting out a drug lab from the back of a passing truck. Or a
sniper taking out a limo with a rocket launcher, as in Gibson's
_Count_Zero_.)  In short, the Mafia would go paramilitary, but would
act like a surgeon, only cutting out the portions of the
neighborhood which are bothering them, but trying to leave the rest
of the city unharmed.

>Smart bullets and lasers will replace "dumb" handguns as weapons.

 "Smart Bullets"?  I might accept something the length of, say, a
crossbow bolt having some sort of target-seeking capability, and
yes, I did see the movie "Runaway", but I canna' change the laws of
physics, and I just don't see fitting all that circuitry, control
jets and fuel inside of anything smaller than that.  The level of
weaponry of the cops would, of course, vary as you go from the
doughnut patrol to the state police, but some things you'd be sure
to see include:
   uzi- style assault rifles (already standard in Europe), with
laser sights, would replace riot shotguns (equally effective, more
selective)
   Body armor for all officers, possibly reinforced with composite
plates to stop _really_ nasty ammunition
   All ammunition would use caseless cartridges (solid propellant
stuck on the back of the bullet instead of powder in a shell)
   Laser guns only on large vehicles (they use up too much power!)
   S.W.A.T. teams going whole hog, becoming army units for all
intents and purposes.
   Increased use of helicopters, possibly going over to VTOL
aircraft, both to move units around in emergencies, and maybe
replacing the patrol car.

   Anti-terrorist techniques would also improve: in a hostage
situation, fast-acting anesthetic gas would be shot into the room:
before the thug can do anything, they are waking up in jail.

   Hey, good luck with this stuff, whoever.

Jon Acheson

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 22:54:12 GMT
From: masticol@clash.rutgers.edu (Stephen P. Masticola)
Subject: Re: Future Police Speculations Needed

AE4@PSUVMA.BITNET (Jon Acheson) writes:
>>The baddies may have anything up to fission bombs and
>>(genetic-engineered) viruses, and the police will realize this and
>>act accordingly.
>      It's a nice thought, but I hardly think so.  For one thing,
> setting off a tacnuke in your own city is _stupid_ - fallout and
> excessive carnage are bad for business, and you're likely to scare
> the civilian government doing something rash, like declaring
> martial law.  Furthermore, you are going to have to operate in the
> neighborhood afterwards, and having to wear radiation/biowarfare
> armor wherever you go would be a genuine nuisance.

So who said anything about setting it off in your own city? Ever
read _Friday_? In that scenario, big corporations ran the world, and
if you burned someone, one of your cities was next. Include
organized crime as a nonlegal corporate entity, and the same policy
would apply.

However, just to prove that posession of atom bombs for use on one's
own city does make some kind of perverse sense, consider the
following:

Then as now, setting off an atom bomb in your own city or planet is
a terrorist tactic of last resort, to be used only if your mob is
threatened with extinction. Having this sort of counterthreat around
is a workable way to keep from being threatened with extinction. (If
you decide to kill me, I'll make sure you and everyone you ever met
are dead too.) The problem is it can backfire, and once you use it,
you're committed, so you'd better have someplace else to go.

>      What might be more likely would be for the evil slime to
> develop highly trained heavily-armed fast-strike squads.  These
> would be made up of special- ists, deploying heavy firepower, but
> able to be highly selective in their targets (picture a vulcan
> autocannon blasting out a drug lab from the back of a passing
> truck. Or a sniper taking out a limo with a rocket launcher, as in
> Gibson's _Count_Zero_.)  In short, the Mafia would go
> paramilitary, but would act like a surgeon, only cutting out the
> portions of the neighborhood which are bothering them, but trying
> to leave the rest of the city unharmed.

Vulcan cannon and rocket launchers are available right now from your
friendly neighborhood gunrunner. My guess is that the mob (I do
_not_ specify which mob) is not using such toys because it has no
need for them. As far as elite mob troops, it's pretty hard to keep
any kind of discipline inside a criminal organization. Maybe they'd
hire mercenaries when they needed to go up against hardened targets.

One other point: the mob knows the value of soft-kill techniques
better than our military does. When they want to take something
over, they get inside and corrupt it. Then they own a going concern
rather than a gutted shell. Extreme violence is a negative-sum game,
and the mob, like business, plays to win. (Most of the time, anyway
- feuds can get in the way of good sense.)

>>Smart bullets and lasers will replace "dumb" handguns as weapons.
> "Smart Bullets"?  I might accept something the length of, say, a
> crossbow bolt having some sort of target-seeking capibility, and
> yes, I did see the movie "Runaway", but I canna' change the laws
> of physics, and I just don't see fitting all that circuitry,
> control jets and fuel inside of anything smaller than that.

And you can't make a computer that'll run more than a few hours,
because of the mean lifetime of the tubes. Technology advances
sometimes. Personally, I think that noninvasive interfacing of
electronics to the brain assumes a lot more than a steerable, guided
bullet does.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 15:02:36 GMT
From: gls@odyssey.att.com (g.l.sicherman)
Subject: Re: Future Police

> laura@haddock.ISC.COM writes:
>> What will a police station/police fortress be like in the 2030's?

No police.  We police ourselves.  The street is the station, the
courtroom, and the prison.

Col. G. L. Sicherman
...!ihnp4!odyssey!gls

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 20:47:00 GMT
From: commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu
Subject: Star Wars Filksohg

                    THE BALLAD OF OBI-WAN KENOBI
          tune:  "The MTA" (a.k.a. "The Wreck of Old 97")
                       parodied by Frank Reid

A long time ago there was a man named Obi
In a galaxy far away.
When a trashcan and a kid came knocking at his door
He knew trouble was headed his way.

Refrain:
     But did he ever get zapped? No, he never got zapped,
     He knows all the tricks those storm troopers use.
     They did trail him all around but they never shot him down,
     Kenobi is never gonna lose.

They loaded up their droids and they drove into town,
Right into a storm trooper trap.
He faked 'em with the Force and he fooled 'em, of course,
You can't catch Obi with sh*t like that!

He went in a bar, he met a starship pilot
And a thing with a cold wet nose.
Those storm troopers were a bunch of party poopers
But Obi came out smelling like a rose.

(Refrain)

One more story 'bout Obi-Wan Kenobi
On a tragic and fateful day,
Old Darth Vader got left holding the bag
'Cause Obi's gone clean away!

(Refrain)

(spoken): Old Jedi never die; they just hang around in a blue haze.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #484
Date:  2 Nov 87 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #484
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 87 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #484
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 484

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Oct 87 13:40:50 EDT
From: Jaffe@RUTGERS
Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!!

     The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of
the television show "Star Trek: The Next Generation".  People who
have not yet seen the show may wish to skip the following messages.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 22:30:18 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!jef@RUTGERS.EDU (Jef Poskanzer)
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Last Outpost

BARBANIS@cs.umass.edu wrote:
>The captain: Since he is so obviously French (or of French origin)
>why doesn't he have an accent?  You know, something like: "We've
>been hit by les photon torpedoes! Ooh la la!"

I'm of Lithuanian origin, so why don't I have a Lithuanian accent?
(What the heck would a Lithuanian accent sound like, anyway?)

>The Ferrengi: How come creatures that look and act like the
>hunchback of Notre-Dame have developed a spacefaring civilization?

Bigotry.  Shove it.

>And, BTW, why always variations on the erect biped theme?  How
>about reptilian forms, or something a bit off the beaten track?

I guess you haven't been paying attention.  For reasons not
completely known, erect bipeds are very common in the ST universe.
I guess you didn't catch the comment that the Tkon guardian made
when he materialized as a human: "Ah, biped form!  Excellent!"  Or
something like that.

>Why did they have to fill the whole viewscreen of the Enterprise
>with the Ferrengi captain image?  I'd think lifesize would be best.
>It doesn't add to the episode's realism if one can really count all
>the pores on the Ferrengi's face!

Again, you weren't paying attention.  The Ferengi transmitted that
distorted image on purpose.

>When the starships are immobilized, the Feds think the Ferrengi are
>holding their ship with their Immenso-Matic-Freezo-Grabo-Beam.  It
>seems to me that, since the warp drive was intact (they attempted
>to do w9, so it must have been working) that they would merely drag
>the Ferrengi along.  You know, action-reaction.  Or did they think
>the Immenso-Matic-Freezo-Grabo-Beam anchors the Ferrengi against
>the planet?  Or maybe they don't teach action-reaction at the
>starfleet academy anymore.

Since you know so much about the physics of Federation and Ferengi
technology, why are you wasting your time and ours with stupid
thought-free flames?

Seriously, there are lots of valid complaints that can be made about
the new Star Trek, but you have not made any of them.

Jef Poskanzer
unisoft!jef@ucbvax.Berkeley.Edu
...ucbvax!unisoft!jef

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 08:33:07 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #468
From: "Mary_Jo_DiBella.henr801E"@Xerox.COM

Regarding: Is Picard French?

In the third episode, when the Enterprise tried unsuccessfully to
break free from whatever it was holding it, I distinctly heard
Captain Picard mutter 'Merde'.

I don't know a lot of French, but I certainly know what THAT
means!!!!  I'd suspect that it would never have made it past network
censors....except that I sae the St. Elsewhere episode where Ed
Flanders dropped his pants and mooned the new hospital
administrator...so who knows...

Anyhow, I'd say that one word makes it very clear that Captain
Picard is a Frenchman through and through.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 87 16:42:14 edt
From: jarrell@vtopus.cs.vt.edu (Ronald A. Jarrell)
Subject: ST: TNG

Barbanis@cs.umass.edu asks about the rank pins..

It's not to hard to figure out if you have a good T.V., A VCR, and
squint a lot.  Some pins are metallic, and others have a black dot
in the center, leaving the pin essentially black with a metallic
ring.  Problem is, in the right light (like 90% of the time) the
metallic ones look black. Presumably this is not a problem in
person, i.e. starfleet officers are not squinting at each other all
the time!  The pins are:

   1    (Ensign? Not sure)
   1/1  (1 metal, 1 black)  (Lt. J.G.)
   2    (2 metal) (Lt)
   2/1  (Lt. Commander)
   3    (Commander)
   4    (Captain)

Black one is always the left most one.  Interesting that a Commander
has 3 metal, and a Captain has 4.  All the other ranks a black
separator. But then again, there is no such thing as Lt. Captain....
:-)

Wonder if Admiral is 5, or something else entirely?  McCoy wasn't in
regulation star fleet issue.. (Unless that's only Galaxy Class issue
we see)

The characters ranks are:

   Picard               Captain
   Riker                Commander
   Chief Engineer       Lt. Commander (Pretty sure, dark
                        reflections..) (MacPherson?)
   Dr. Crusher  Lt. Commander (pretty sure, usually covered by
                              her lab coat)
   Worf         Lt J.G. (I think.  Almost positive I'm seeing
                         black)
   Data         Lt. Commander
   Yar          Lt.
   La Forge     Lt. J.G.
   Troi         Counselor (equivalent to Lt. Commander)
                Counselor is (According to Roddenberry)
                a new military rank.  Ships counselors
                are very important people...

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 20:47:16 GMT
From: unirot!bicker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: STTNG bits & pieces

BARBANIS@cs.umass.edu writes:
>Question: What are "Chinese finger puzzles"?  Do they actually
>belong to Data, or did he just find them in the briefing room?  Do
>such things exist in our universe?  Where do I find them?

They were left in the briefing room by the two children who Riker
shooed out when the officers walked in.

They do exist.  You could probably find them in party supply stores
or anywhere where you can get fireworks.

UUCP: {ihnp4|clyde|moss|ulysses}!hoqam!bicker

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 20:06:29 GMT
From: mlandau@bbn.com (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: ST: TNG

jarrell@vtopus.cs.vt.edu  writes:
>Counselor is (According to Roddenberry) a new military rank.  Ships
>counselors are very important people...

Funny, when some friends and I first wondered about this, the first
thing we thought of was a sort of civilian oversight of the military
... sort of the ship's zampolit.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 20:04:33 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Last Outpost

BARBANIS@cs.umass.edu wrote:
>The Ferrengi: How come creatures that look and act like the
>hunchback of Notre-Dame have developed a spacefaring civilization?

Well, for starters, why don't you investigate the life of Charles
Proteus Steinmetz, a contemporary/collaborator/ rival of Thomas
Edison.

For just one item, we are indebted to him: AC electric power.  If
Edison (and his company) had their way, we'd be limited to DC power
stations planted about every 3 miles or so...

Your comment was a joke, right?  (Tell me I'm right...)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 87 14:54:13 PST
From: PUGH@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Star Pepsi, a New Generation

Personally, I am disappointed by the Ferrengi. The only description
of them that really fits is snivelling rat faced gits, although the
electric whips were kind of nasty. I was hoping for something so
nasty that it would have forced the Klingons and the Federation into
ganging up against them.  The Ferrengi were neither fearsome nor
nasty.  I guess they weren't the reason we made friends with the
Klingons.

Of course, maybe the Organians made good on their threat to mellow
everyone out.  We all know that we never saw them again in the
original ST, despite the numerous fights between the Klingons and
humans.  Perhaps they took some action during the interlude.
Perhaps it would make a good movie (hint, hint).  Perhaps the
Klingons just mellowed out.  Naaaaahhhhhh...

As for the reason all the aliens are bipeds or a variant on the
theme, it is awfully hard to hire slime monsters in Hollywood these
days.  They aren't union.  It is a simple fact that bipeds are
easier and cheaper to fake than multitenticled elephant creatures,
although Carlos, the ambassador in a box, must have been hired for
virtually nothing.

I vote for more Tellerites, although I would like to see eyes in the
eye holes this time.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 87 19:17:19 EST
From: Rob Elkins <relkins@vax1.acs.udel.edu>
Subject: Star-Trek The next Generation

    The last episode, (like the other episodes) reminds me of a trek
episode where the Enterprise and another ship get caught in a force
field above some planet.  The masters of this planet for some reason
transported Kirk and the other ship's captain to fight each other
for their ship's freedom (or something like that) Kirk of course
wins because of his wits, and the Enterprise and its crew live
happily until the next episode.
    Does anyone else out there have this feeling of deja-vu about
this episode?
    Also, I think that its interesting that Picard didn't go down to
the surface of the planet with Riker, a real change from Kirk.  I
also find it surprising that Picard didn't fire back on the Ferrengi
at their first hostile action.  Dear old Captain Kirk would have
acted totally different, i.e. "Lock Phasers and Fire!".  One more
thing; When Picard asked Riker for his advice, and Riker said that
he felt all options were covered, Picard said that there was one
more.  Was that self-destruction?

Rob Elkins
ARPA: relkins@vax1.acs.udel.edu
BITNET: FFO04688 at UDACSVM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 87 23:23:51 -0500
From: new@UDEL.EDU
Subject: Subtle STTNG?

Somehow, Q did not strike me as much like Trelane except
superficially.  Same clothing, same accent.  However, I remember
Trelane as being a spoiled brat that revelled in Earth's barbarism
and was upset that Kirk would not play war. Q on the other hand
dislikes the savage Earthians because they are savage. As to why Q
chose the Enterprise instead of the Honda (or whatever it was
called), I assumed it was due to the fact that the Enterprise was
going to continue on, whereas the other ship was probably returning
back to Federation space. Also consider the final appearance of Q
was in Federation uniform. (I know the grammer/spelling is getting
bad - I have a headache).  This could be taken to mean either that
he was willing to associate himself with the Federation, or that he
was using that uniform as he used the earlier ones: as a symbol of
savage actions. I think he's saying "I'm willing to go either way.
It's up to you do determine what I mean by wearing this uniform."

As to the lack of "whoosh" to indicate that Picard was infected:
What makes you think he had to be infected? I've seen people make
a**es of themselves around beautiful, seemingly willing women
without being the least bit drunk.  We already know Picard is fairly
human, ("Shut off that noise", or whatever he said), by which I mean
I think STTNG is trying to NOT depict stereotypical characters.

Am I completly off the wall?  Am I seeing pigments [sic] of
imagination?  Could it be that we are seeing a series that has both
a superficial level to keep the masses happy and a deeper level to
appeal to those who read meaning into minor things?  Wow, just
think...

Actually, you people probably know the writers and such better than
I, and this is a real question.  Heck, I just watch the stuff.

P.S.: If I made an android, I would no more name it "Data" than I
would name my own son "Gene".  (that's a joke, get it?)

Darren New
new@udel.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 00:48:06 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!ers!nmm@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil McCulloch)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG Episode 5 (Where No One Has Gone Before)

From: Dave Combs <COMBS@sumex-aim.stanford.edu>
> ***** SPOILER WARNING ****** out", after telling the captain that
> Wesley Crusher, who has befriended him, is something akin to a
> Mozart-level prodigy, but with starships.  Picard decides that he
> will actively encourage Wesley's development.  End of story.

End of Series!

So, they're trying to appeal to kids. This is going to make for a
great series I don't think. Precocious kids showing up adults is
Disney stuff and nonsense and simply doesn't happen in the real
world, past present and future. Science is hard work, even for
Einsteins.

Well, I'll wait and see how the writers handle it!

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 87 09:24 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG: Ferengi

Marina Fournier writes:
> ... Ferengi is similar to the Turkish? word for strangers

Interesting.  It is also similar to the Greek word for
"trustworthy", "creditable", esp. in the context of trading &
commerce.  (But I don't think GR had this in mind when he coined the
name.)  And I suppose that in some other language Ferengi means
"those mean people who would steal your spaceship and feed your
grandmother to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal if they ever
got the chance".  :-)

George Barbanis
UMass -- Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 16:18:00 GMT
From: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Karen L. Black)
Subject: STTNG: The Last Outpost

The Ferengi's face was as large as it was because it was transmitted
to the Enterprise that way -- after all, Data did say that the
transmission was "distorted" in some way.

As for our dear Captain's accent, I for one am just as happy that he
doesn't sound like Pepe LePeuw!

Karen Black

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 15:48:27 EST
From: baldwin@qa1.pica.mil
Subject: Star Trek (Transporters)

  I have listened patiently for several months to the various
discussions on warp drive, transwarp theory and transporters with
much interest. I have some thoughts on the matter, which some
readers might find of interest.
  I will start by throwing out a bone for you to chew on for a
while. In the Star Trek episode "OBSESSION", Captain Kirk and
another crewman transport to the surface of a planet, with a
quantity of Hemoplasm, and a bomb containing an amount of antimatter
held in magnetic suspension (a magnetic bottle). I maintain, that
this shows that a stasis field must be created, in the area
surrounding the transported subject. If this were not the case, the
liberation of the antimatter, would be guaranteed as the magnetic
bottle collapsed.
  There is also another hint that a stasis field is created during
the transport. This resides in the fact that the transported subject
remains motionless for a short period of time following
materialization.
  NOTE: This doesn't seem to be a good practice for troops coming to
the rescue, as the element of suprise is lost.
   Any comments from the net?

Karl Baldwin
baldwin@pica-qa1

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #485
Date:  2 Nov 87 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #485
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 87 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #485
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 485

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Tolkien (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 87 14:28 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Tolkien

So why do *I* like Tolkien ? I have no doubt that you are
collectively dying to find out :-). But I'll try to point out a few
things that have not been already said by others.

The problem is that Anti-Tolkieners (AT's) want to find out why we
Pro-Tolkien- ers (PT's) actually like Tolkien, TLotR in particular.

- Standard AT arguments seem to be: "His dialogue is boring", "He
puts too many descriptive passages in", etc.  I think these are
unfair arguments, because our little braincells determine whether we
enjoy these things or not, and the only counter-argument is a polite
"Well I *like* his dialogue" and so on, which brings us nowhere.  I
do not think there is a valid enough definition of 'interesting
dialogue' to use the argument (and others like it) except in
extremely extreme cases, which Tolkien does not belong to. (bold
statement, but I hope you agree)

- A more reasonable AT-argument is: "His characters are flat". Or:
"All his Elves are good/Orcs are bad/Hobbits are funny".  This is
something you *can* determine for a given book, and I personally
agree with the AT's on these points.  Some PT's try to counter this
by pointing out that Gimli loves Galadriel/ Saruman was first Good,
then Evil/Gollem ditto/Sam has a different character than Frodo or
Bilbo/etc.  This does not prove anything, I fear. It's just a case
of "Some of my best friends are Jews". Simply pointing out
exceptions does *not* mean that Tolkien's characters are well
developed, or his races not heavily stereotyped.

But why does that matter so much ?

What I am going to say now, may antagonize some people, but I just
can't help it: ever since I joined SFLOVERS, I have been getting the
growing impression from a lot of your postings, that many of you
seem to find that the following implications hold:

          this book has an original plot & well-rounded characters
          >  it's literature
          >  it's a good book

          this book has flat characters and says nothing that
          hasn't been said before
          > it's not literature
          > it's at the very most a 'good read' or 'enjoyable', but
            probably it's just trash

(again: I *know* I am generalizing and exaggerating a bit; I'm just
trying to make a point here)

And of course I don't agree. I have read many books (not even all
SF!), and there are those, obviously well written, original, with
'real' characters, that I can't stand.  There are also books, that
are not original, have flat characters, but rank high on my personal
Top-20 list, BECAUSE I LIKE THEM ANYWAY. Because they are
none-the-less: well written.  TLotR is one of those books. And the
whole 'well written'-thing is again something that each of us can
only decide for her/his-self. So we're back where I started.

Bear with me a while longer.

Just what kind of book *is* TLotR ? An Epic. A historical tale of
the last months in a War so gigantic that the faith of the whole
World rests on the outcome.  Now what possible use do 'real'
characters serve here? He could have tried to make Aragorn a bit
less boring than he is now by showing us his thoughts, feelings and
Inner Struggles. He would then also have to do this for all the
other secondary characters, and the book would be the size of an
encyclopaedia.  But TLotR *is not about* Aragorn or any of the
others. They are just pawns, used to explain and shape the *real*
story, which is the story (or better: history) of whole Middle
Earth.

I don't *want* Aragorn's character to develop as the story
progresses. The only development he needs is that from Strider to
King.  Peregrin & Meriadoc (not showing off, I just can't remember
how the short forms of those names are written in English) are only
devices that show us what is going on in several key-places (which
is why they get seperated from both Frodo and each other), and
provide comical relief (which is why they are Hobbits).  Frodo is
the only real main character of the story. And yes, his is the only
character that actually develops during the book. (maybe Sam a
little too, but the rest? No way.)

In a story about WW II, the Germans are the bad guys. The English
are the good guys. Maybe one of the English turns out to be a
traitor.  You can write a really good novel about inter-human
conflicts during such a war only if you focus on the people you are
writing about, and use the war as a *context*.  Tolkien however,
wants to tell about the war itself. And that's why he uses standard
characters, and generalizes so much. He does this very well, by
introducing so many different secondary characters, that what they
lack in quality and depth, they make up for in sheer quantity and
diversity.  This is exactly what many other writers try to in about
as many horrible fantasy stories ("and so, in the year of Zoorhn, it
came to pass that Gargl, Lord of the seven Murburs, finally brought
the curse of ZnnngBang upon the house of Illdrad as prophecied in
the annals of TjipTjip") but to explain why Tolkien succeeds either
brings us back to my very first point, or leads to the fact that
TLotR is not just another story, but a man's life work in the most
literal way.

Enough said. These were all just my humble opinions of course. Thank
you for reading them and if you disagree feel free to let me know
why.  The rest of you can wake up now.

Leo Breebaart
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 23:15:03 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: "flat" characters in Tolkien

Tolkien's characters often do represent archtypes, which are an old
and respected tradition in ancient epic literature.  If people can't
give up their modernist prejudices, then they can't enjoy Tolkien,
and are poorer for it.  People seem to think that anything that
doesn't conform to the current fashion in literature is unworthy of
the name.  This is a very parochial perspective.  Anyhow, the notion
that there is no complexity in Tolkien's characters is quite
mistaken.  This is especially pernicious when one says that the
characters are either good or evil.  Gollum is a good example of an
"evil" character that has good in him, and the interaction between
the good and evil is essential to the story.  Boromir and Denethor
are other examples.  In the Silmarillion, it is even more clear:
Turin is a typical tragic hero, as is Feanor.  Where the idea came
from that there are only "good" elves, is beyond comprehension to
anyone who has read Silmarillion.  The heart of the point of "The
Hobbit" is missed if it is not noticed that once the precious goal
has been attained (the killing of Smaug) the main characters fall to
petty squabbling among themselves resulting in the death of Thorin.
This bitter core of pessimism is much more essentially a part of
Tolkien that the "miraculous" rescues at the ends of chapters in
LotR that have so bothered some readers.  Happy endings?  Although
Tolkien talks about eucatastrophe, the ending of LotR is hardly an
unmitigated happy one.  Don't forget what happened to the shire: it
was ruined, and Frodo's ability to enjoy what was left of it was
also ruined by his experiences on the quest.  And don't think going
off to Valinor was necessarily the cure for it all...that isn't all
that clear to readers of Silmarillion.  These stories are tragic,
especially those in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, filled
with a deep pessimism which is very sad and moving.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 17:05:09 GMT
From: me3201at@europa.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Ring Things...

As far as being anti-Tolken or pro-Tolken it is hard for me to
decide.

I have read The Hobbit and enjoyed it immensely. It proved to be one
of those books that once I picked it up I found it hard to put it
back down until I have read the entire thing even when I am reading
it for the nth time.

However my attempt to read LOTR (Lord Of The Rings) was not so
thrilling. I read the first book and was very impressed and couldn't
wait for the second. But in the second book everything came to a
screeching halt. In place of the action and magic of the first book
that so enchanted me I found characters telling tales that at the
time seemed to apply to the main story in the vaguest of ways. I
encountered tale after tale after tale until I wound up having to
check the front cover every so often to see if I picked up the right
book. It got to the point where I was setting the book down for
months at a time before I would continue reading it. By the time I
got to the third book I was lost and the whole story came to what
seamed to be a climatic end with me not exactly understanding what
happened (the distruction of the ring was the only thing I really
understood).

Repeated attempts to read LOTR has proven less fruitful. My
conclusion is that the LOTR is to wordy and could have been easily
written in just two books.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 23:26:30 GMT
From: rock%warp@sun.com (Bill Petro)
Subject: Re: "flat" characters in Tolkien

geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu.UUCP (Gordon E. Banks) writes:
>And don't think going off to Valinor was necessarily the cure for
>it all...that isn't all that clear to readers of Silmarillion.
>These stories are tragic, especially those in the Silmarillion and
>Unfinished Tales, filled with a deep pessimism which is very sad
>and moving.

Indeed, the end of LoTR seemed sad to me in a strange way when I
read it years ago, especially after reading the appendix.  However,
after reading the end of the Silmarillion, which was told less from
the standpoint of the Hobbits, but more from that of the Elves, I
realized how heart-breakingly sad it was.  The Elves who were so
tied to Middle-Earth, as Man was not were now leaving it.

Bill Petro
{cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!warp!rock

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 12:46:53 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Tolkien (Ace editions)

From:   tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bass@stuck
> When LOTR first became popular in G.B. the American publishers Ace
> books decided to release an illegal copy to avoid imports and cut
> cost

Not the least bit true. I already explained what the true reason was
(I won't explain it all again in detail, but briefly, they were able
to do it due to loopholes in the US copyright laws). Your assertion
can be proven false by virtue of the fact that the first US
hardcover editions were issued by Houghton Mifflin in 1954, the same
year that the first UK editions were published by Allen Unwin, while
the Ace Books paperbacks were released in 1965 --- eleven years
later.

> Tolkien found out and took some legal action to stop it (I can't
> remember anymore exactly what happened).

Tolkien couldn't *legally* do anything; Ace was perfectly within its
rights to publish its editions. But, enough pressure was put on them
that they both withdrew their editions from the market and paid JRRT
royalties on the copies that were already sold.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 12:14:21 GMT
From: pwh@computer-science.nottingham.ac.uk (Paul William Harvey)
Subject: Re: Tolkien

stucki@bass.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J. Stucki) writes:
>When LOTR first became popular in G.B. the American publishers Ace
>books decided to release an illegal copy to avoid imports and cut
>cost (and to make a quick buck). Tolkien found out and took some
>legal action to stop it (I can't remember anymore exactly what
>happened).

 I think he had to revise the book to get round the fact that the
Ace paperback was actually copyrighted in the States then Ballantine
publicised the fact that JRRT wasn't getting any money from the Ace
version. So the Ace version is in the same as the original British
Edition

>The college I did my undergraduate work at (Wheaton College,
>Illinois) has an extensive Tolkien collection (I think only
>rivalled by Oxford and Christopher T.) and is a good source of
>information on JRRT. If you have any questions on his works or his
>life I can probably find out from them for you.

I don't suppose you know if there is a published Elven Grammar in
existence?

David J Stucki
P.O. Box 713 Park Hall
110 W. 11th Ave.
Columbus, OH  43210
..!cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!stucki
stucki@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 01:52:19 GMT
From: vnend@engr.uky.edu (D. V. W. James)
Subject: Re: re: Tolkien (Ace editions)

boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>Tolkien couldn't *legally* do anything; Ace was perfectly within
>its rights to publish its editions.

   Ahh, a minor point here, but Ace was perfectly within the *law*
to publish; rights (and wrongs) are a little more abstract.  And
publishing a living authors work, without contract or intent to pay,
doesn't really sound like a 'right.'

cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!vnend
vnend@engr.uky.edu
vnend%ukecc.uucp@ukma.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 21:06:18 GMT
From: dim@cblpf.att.com (Dennis McKiernan)
Subject: JRRT and the Ace "unauthorized" edition

The American hardcover publisher, Houghten-Mifflin, left off the
copyright statement...hence, the story immediately fell into the
public domain.  (Since that time, the copyright laws have changed
[1978], and such an omission would not now result in a work becoming
public property, i.e., the property of anyone who wished to use it.)

> American publisher, for that matter) to publish LOTR if they
> wished, with no obligation to obtain the author's permission, or
> to be required to pay him royalties.  Thus, the Ace edition was
> entirely legal, but morally reprehensible, not the least of
> reasons why being that Tolkein

"Morally reprehensible" may be too strong a statement.  Donald A.
Wolheim at Ace had tried to negotiate with JRRT for a number of
years, but was getting nowhere.  The head honcho at Ace asked
Wolheim what the scoop was.  DAW told him that JRRT wasn't having
any, and that the tale was in the public domain.  Honcho says to go
ahead and publish it, and to *set aside royalties* just as if JRRT
had agreed for Ace to publish the work.  And Ace paid those
royalties to JRRT, in spite of the fact that the work was in the USA
public domain.  It so happened that JRRT made more money off the
first printing of the Ace books than he did off the first printing
of the Ballantine edition because he didn't have to split the
royalties with Allen & Unwin, his British publishers, who cut the
deal with Ballantine.  But, because the public thought that Ace was
not paying any royalties, screwing over JRRT, Ace withdrew from the
market...bad publicity driving them to do so.  So, "morally
reprehensible" or not, still it proved to be a bad move for Ace to
have printed an "unauthorised edition" of a public domain work,
though a very profitable one for JRRT.

Dennis L. McKiernan

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 87 20:22:21 GMT
From: mkao@crash.cts.com (Mike Kao)
Subject: Anglo-Saxon elements of _Return of the King_

I am doing a study on J.R.R. Tolkien's use of Anglo-Saxon ideals in
_The Lord of the Rings_, specifically _The Return of the King_. I
would like to know the net's views on what ideals were dominant and
how Tolkien employs them to convey the setting of Middle Earth. Some
obvious ones I see are the emphasis on valor and glory, the ideal
king, the culture hero, etc. I would appreciate any
elaborations/additions on this subject.

To insure my reception of any replies, please respond via e-mail.
Thanks!

Mike Kao
UUCP: {cbosgd, hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, nosc}!crash!pnet01!mkao
ARPA: crash!pnet01!mkao@nosc.mil
INET: mkao@pnet01.CTS.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #486
Date:  2 Nov 87 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #486
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Nov 87 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #486
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 2 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 486

Today's Topics:

        Miscellaneous - Wizard of Oz vs Star Wars (6 msgs) &
                        What is SF & Stasis Fields (2 msgs) &
                        Some Comments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 15:02:00 GMT
From: commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu
Subject: Oz Wars

             I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANYMORE, R2

I don't suggest that STAR WARS deliberately ripped off THE WIZARD OF
OZ but can't help noticing some interesting parallels.  Just for
fun, consider the following:

STAR WARS has a tin man, a shaggy critter, a scarecrow, a mascot,
Munchkins, good and evil witches, and a kindly old wizard.  Some of
the Oz-like characters in STAR WARS have switched and combined roles
in the recurring SF theme that appearances can be deceiving.

Luke Skywalker, the central character, is Dorothy.  (Princess Leia
is the good witch, who starts the group on their quest.)  We can
think of Han Solo as the Scarecrow, though it is Luke who goes to
see the Wizard (Obi-Wan Kenobi) in search of a brain.

C3PO and the Wookie are, of course, Tin Man and Cowardly Lion,
although they have traded personalities.  C3PO at first takes a
Dorothy role when he and Toto (R2-D2) land on Tattooine.  (Note that
Toto, not Dorothy, is the bearer of the Ruby Slippers, i.e.,
Deathstar plans.)

Tattooine doesn't LOOK like Kansas, what with Munchkins (Jawas) and
other weird stuff about, but it's Kansas all the same-- Tattooine is
where Luke works on Uncle Owen's rock farm and dreams of the faraway
Space Academy.  (I'm not a musician but much of the STAR WARS music,
especially Luke Skywalker's theme, sounds to me like variations on
"Somewhere Over the Rainbow.")

Darth Vader is the wicked witch, complete with black outfit, castle
(Deathstar), broomstick (tie-fighter) and an army of lackeys.  Our
heroes penetrate the Deathstar in Oz style, by knocking out some
palace guards and stealing their uniforms.

Obi-Wan takes a more active part in the fighting than did The Great
Oz but, like the Wizard, he departs before the final scene, leaving
behind advice to the heroes on how to solve their own problems.  The
good guys prevail, and in the process discover talents they didn't
know they had.

Frank
reid@gold.bacs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 19:38:50 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Oz Wars

Frank (reid@gold.bacs.indiana.edu) writes:

>I don't suggest that STAR WARS deliberately ripped off THE WIZARD
>OF OZ but can't help noticing some interesting parallels.  Just for
>fun, consider the following: [41 lines of comparisons, all of them
>quite logical.  That's surely a record for this kind of analysis!]

The only mistake you make is in being too cautious.  George Lucas
has always been very upfront about borrowing from other movies.  (He
would probably call it maintaining the mythic continuity, or
whatever the "Masks of God" terminology is.)  You're the first
person I've heard of who brings in Oz, but it's well known that the
Tatoine scenes are from a John Wayne movie called "The Searchers"
(which was in Kansas or close enough to it); the big ceremony at the
end of the SW I is straight from "The Triumph of Will", and the
famous Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is straight from some WW II movie
that's so obscure it doesn't even make it to the late show.

Now of which actually detracts from Lucas's achievements.  There are
things I don't like about his movies, but I think the difference
between plagiarism and advancing a genre is largely a matter of
creativity and originality, which Lucas surely has in abundance.

On the other hand, it's worth pointing out no one would notice
Lucas's borrowings even if weren't so *ostentatious* about it...

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 03:14:39 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Oz Wars

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>Frank (reid@gold.bacs.indiana.edu) writes:
>>            I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANYMORE, R2
>>I don't suggest that STAR WARS deliberately ripped off THE WIZARD
>>OF OZ but can't help noticing some interesting parallels.
>You're the first person I've heard of who brings in Oz, ...

Just as a side note, I have an introductory Anthropology text
(_Anthropology: the Exploration of Human Diversity_ by Conrad
Phillip Kottak) that devotes a large section of a chapter about pop
culture to showing that _The Wizard of Oz_ and _Star Wars_ are
really the same movie.

So, Frank, you are not alone in this comparison.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 16:58:44 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith)
Subject: Re: Oz Wars

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>and the famous Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is straight from some WW
>II movie that's so obscure it doesn't even make it to the late
>show.

"Dam Busters", a WWII film about the RAF's gallant efforts to blow
away Nazi dams.  I can't fill in the details, since I've never seen
it.  I have read that much of the dialogue from the Trench scenes is
lifted straight from this film.  Has anyone seen it?

Jay Smith
uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 14:06:52 GMT
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Oz Wars

jay@ncspm.UUCP (Jay Smith) writes:
>Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>>and the famous Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is straight from some
>>WW II movie that's so obscure it doesn't even make it to the late
>>show.
>"Dam Busters", a WWII film about the RAF's gallant efforts to blow
>away Nazi dams.  I can't fill in the details, since I've never seen
>it.  I have read that much of the dialogue from the Trench scenes
>is lifted straight from this film.  Has anyone seen it?

Yes, I've seen 'The Dam Busters' many times; it's not nearly so
obscure on the other side of the ocean!  The film is about the
destruction of some dams in Germany using the famous 'bouncing bomb'
invented by that great boffin Barnes Wallace.  Great patriotic stuff
with an excellent sound track, too.  And I also thought it was the
source of the dog-fight (?) scene.  But then, the "Dam Busters'
March" has bits that sound suspiciously like the last movement of
Mahler's 2nd symphony.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 02:28:32 GMT
From: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!wanttaja@RUTGERS.EDU (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Subject: Re: The Dog-Fight-in-the-Trench (was Re: Oz Wars)

jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith) writes:
> Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>>and the famous Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is straight from some
>>WW II movie that's so obscure it doesn't even make it to the late
>>show.
> "Dam Busters", a WWII film about the RAF's gallant efforts to blow
> away Nazi dams.  I can't fill in the details, since I've never
> seen it.  I have read that much of the dialogue from the Trench
> scenes is lifted straight from this film.  Has anyone seen it?

Not "The Dam Busters"... The movie refered to is "633 Squadron,"
whence a squadron of British attack bombers must fly down a
Norweigan Fjord to bomb a German heavy-water factory.  Most of the
movie is meoldramatic tripe, but tune in for the last half hour,
during the big attack.  I don't know if dialogue was copied, but
Lucas sure copied some camera shots!

Ron Wanttaja
(ssc-vax!wanttaja)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 09:48:43 PST (Monday)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE fiction
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

from: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>and always baffles me: SCIENCE does not imply FUTURE!  Perfectly
>good science has been done in the past or the present.  There are
>tons of books that we would probably all agree are Science Fiction
>that take place in the present, especially.  (Alien
>invasions/contact, time travel, etc.)  Similarly, many books take
>place in a more advanced future but really qualify as fantasy (or
>are at least debatable) such as Book of the New Sun.

   If you examine my original posting you will notice that I do not
say that Science implies future.  The book themes you describe would
all fall under my definition of SCIENCE fiction.  In the Alien
invasions/contact on present Earth it is not the Earth that has the
technological sophistication, but the aliens.  I think that many
(although not all, I bet :-)) would argue that time travel does not
involve some higher form of technology that we are not currently
acquainted with.

   My original definition was that there had to be something in the
story that is of a higher technological level than we are currently
aware of.  By technology I mean something that is constructed based
on scientific principals of some sort (e.g. starships time machines
etc.), not conjured out of thin air by the wave of the hand (e.g.
magic etc.).

from: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>The conclusion that I cameto was that the overall genre of
>speculative fiction can besubdivided into SF, horror, and fantasy,
>and that these three sub-categories are definitely not discrete.
>In fact, they overlap like three bubbles in a Venn diagram.  It is
>quite possible for a given work to fall into one, two, or all
>three categories.

   I quite agree.

>    With SF, the speculation is (more or less) scientific in
>nature.  For me, a real SF story is one where the author creates a
>world that is somehow rooted in present-day reality, introduces one
>or more "scientific" advances, and then weaves them into the
>pattern of human development and interaction that is essential in
>any story.
>
>    If that last sentence seemed a little bit dense, let me give an
>example.  I don't think "Star Wars" qualifies as SF for several
>reasons.  Although there is lots of neat technology, the actual

   I think that "Star Wars" quite clearly falls into the
intersection of the SF and Fantasy bubbles of your Venn diagram
(maybe clips the Horror section as well :-)) and if your definition
doesn't accept "Star Wars" as Science Fiction then your it leaves a
little to be desired.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Oct 87 22:20:46 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Re: Stasis Fields (again)

From: "Michael_J_Kean.SBDERX"@Xerox.COM
>Why go to all the trouble of pushing a 'Stasisised' spaceship into
>a star?  Why not fire a Photon torpedo at the ship (or 10 to be on
>the safe side) and leave them to it.  The torpedoe will stop when
>it enters the stasis field, but once the field is deactivated
>(however this is done?), will presumably continue on it's journey
>to spaceship destruction.
>
>I'm not to fond of a Stasis field which effects everything within
>it.  This means that if the Stasis Generator is within the field it
>too will stop, so no field is generated, so the field does not
>exist which means the generator can create the field, but..........
>
>To avoid this the generator must be outside the field and hence
>open to distruction by the enemy.

    Well, most of the stasis fields described in SF don't work this
way (I said MOST of them, for those of you that want to cite
examples).  No matter how, you slice it, a stasis field, by
definition is TOTALLY impenetrable (sic) and ALWAYS affects
everything that it encloses.
    Probably the best dealt-with stasis field examples (oh darn, now
I'M citing examples! :-)) in recent work are those used in Vernor
Vinge's two novels "The Peace War" and "Marooned in Realtime".  In
these books the field can only be generated as a perfect sphere (but
the size can be varied).  The amount of time ("external" time) that
the field exists is directly determined by the amount of energy used
to create the field initially (apparently, there a slow degradation
to the field (due to thermodynamic entropy?) which event- ually
causes it to dissolve).  The field can be created either around it's
own generator or around a remote point, but creation is a quantum
operation (first it doesn't exist, then it does) so that the
creation of the field around it's own generator does not interrupt
the generator in mid-process.
    Remember, this is all fiction, so you can do it any way you want
to do it.  But the above mechanism would certainly prevent any of
the inconsistancies described by Mike from taken effect.

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 21 Oct 87 14:49:32 GMT
From: rochester!ur-tut!dmw3@RUTGERS.EDU (David Walsh)
Subject: Re: Stasis Fields

  Do people really read these stories before they post about them?
The bobble not only reflects everything that hits it, but time is
stopped (not just slowed down, but STOPPED) inside the bobble.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING can penetrate the bobble that was known at the
time of the book.  The inventor of the things was going to try and
see if he could "pop" a bobble, but how he would go about it is a
moot point.  Not even gravity penetrates the bobble.  Gravity will
not be reflected from a bobble, but will pull on a bobble drawing it
nearer if possible (remember the shuttle that crashed with
you-know-who?)

  If you are stuck in a bobble you would never know it until you
come out and something had changed outside, unless you were falling
from a building and got bobbled in which case you would fall only
what little distance there was between your feet and the bobble's
bottom edge.  However, you will still have the same inertia as when
you were bobbled...  leads to some interesting effects no?

  As was mentioned in the book, the bobble field separates the space
inside it and outside it into two separate universes.  This is what
led the main character/inventor of the bobble into figuring out that
time was stopped inside of the field.  He also came up with a number
of other points/ideas about bobbles which I will not go into here
because if you have read the book you should know them, otherwise
you should go read the book.

Dave Walsh

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 87 11:42:13 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

alexande@gumby.wisc.edu (Michael Alexander) writes:
>One idea I have heard on the subject is comparing space to a piece
>of paper The idea is that to conventionally travel across a sheet
>of paper(space) takes to long because the large distance needed to
>travel across. The Trans-Warp is like folding the paper so the ends
>touch, then the distance is very minute, cross to the other end and
>then unfold the paper(space)

What happens if you fold it enough to make a paper dart? :-)

Some observations on several films.

Did you notice :

    That in the "Star Wars" universe, life is so short and cheap,
they invented the laser cannon before the wheel? No wheels are to be
seen; ground transport is either anti-grav (Luke's speeder, Jabba's
barge and skiff's) or legged (Imperial AT-AT's and AT-ST's).

    That in "Star Trek", phasers have no gunsights? Try aiming one
of those.  The ones in ST-TNG look even worse, but I may be wrong.
All I have seen of them so far is a photo of Majel
Barrett/Roddenberry showing one off in the "Starlog" magazine.

    That in "Battlestar Galactica", one of Ralph McQuarrie's
pre-production drawings of the Galactica appears in Adama's cabin.
Also, that they always use a small number of space combat sequences.
They came unstuck once. In the story "Lost Planet of the Gods", the
ragtag fleet was supposed to be in a void. No stars were visible -
until the Cylons attacked, and the usual fights in space occurred!
Also, try spotting tanks on the ships. O.K., so most spacecraft use
bits of old models - but I found an almost intact German WW2
halftrack.  "Adama, we're in trouble. The Cylons' new weapon is a
bazooka!"

    That in Dr. Who, they are so often in a quarry - is it the same
one?

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #487
Date:  4 Nov 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #487
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Nov 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #487
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Nov 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 487

Today's Topics:

              Books - Adams & Card & Delany (3 msgs) &
                      Donaldson & Ford (2 msgs) &
                      Killian (2 msgs) & Niven &
                      Spider Robinson & Tiptree &
                      Tubb (2 msgs) & Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 22:06:32 GMT
From: hardin@hpindda.hp.com (John Hardin)
Subject: Re: New fiction? (_DGHDA_, minor spoiler)

>The new Douglas Adam's is complete trash. There are about 3 good
>jokes in it and nothing else. The book was very obviously put
>together under ...
>
>This book is even worse than "So Long and Thanks for the Fish", ...

Sorry you didn't enjoy it.  I did.  There were fewer belly laughs in
it, but it was a little less self conscious than Hitchhiker's Guide
and had a little more plot.  No flames, please... I still enjoyed HG
more (and SLATFTF less).  I'd recommend Dirk Gentley to Adams fans.
I found it quite enjoyable.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 87  8:41:52 EST
From: Aaron Eisenfeld <aeisenfe@col.bbn.com>
Subject: New OS Card

Yesterday I had a bonanza at my local library. While perusing the
shelves I found Julian May's new book (_Intervention_(?)) and, best
of all, a new book by Orson Scott Card called _Wyrms_. Has anyone
heard or know anything of Card's new book? The copyright says 1987.
In any case I'm about halfway done and it is very good so far.
Briefly it is about a young girl with special training who (of
course) is destined for great things on her Earth colonized planet.
There is a lot of religious 'tension' in the story and a prophecy
about the girl, Patience. The planet's culture is a fascinating one
and I'm eager to finish the book. In any case, it seems that I have
plenty of good reading ahead of me.

Aaron Eisenfeld

------------------------------

Date: 27 Oct 87 23:19:38 GMT
From: uiucdcs!sq!bms@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

From: gruber.pa@xerox.com
>2. What novels are precursors to this sub-genre?
>3. What authors do you think influenced its creation?
>       (similar to question 2)

I like to think that Samuel Delany's writings, especially the
earlier stuff, had a lot to do with it.  In Nova (my favoritist book
for many many years), we saw people wandering around with sockets in
their wrists or spines, and it worked awfully well.  I think there
was some of that in Babel-17 as well, but it's been a while since I
read either book.

I haven't yet had the time to get into cyberpunk, but I imagine it
as carrying much the same flavour as the above mentioned Delany
novels, and I look forward to them as such.  Am I wrong?

Becky

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 05:58:51 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

bms@sq.UUCP (bms) writes:
>In Nova (my favoritist book for many many years), we saw people
>wandering around with sockets in their wrists or spines, and it
>worked awfully well.  I think there was some of that in Babel-17 as
>well, but it's been a while since I read either book.
>
>I haven't yet had the time to get into cyberpunk, but I
>imagine it as carrying much the same flavour as the
>above mentioned Delany novels, and I look forward to them
>as such.  Am I wrong?

I have read both _Nova_ and _Babel-17_, but a few years ago.
However, though the moment I picked up _Neuromancer_ and they were
"jacking in" I immediately thought _Nova_. BUT, the similarities
pretty much end here. Cyberpunk can pretty much be thought of as a
new sub-genre. It is a much different style than any SF written in
the (?) 50's. It's not all "hard" SF -- at least Gibson seems pretty
"new wavy" to me.

Not to knock Delany. Personnally, I feel that his _Dhalgren_ is one
of the very best SF books I have ever read. It seems it could be
grouped with the so-called "experimental" fiction that started with
the existentialist movement in the 50's and continues on today with
"modernist" literature. A lot of modern fiction is weird in the same
ways as _Dhalgren_: nothing is spelled out for the reader,
transitions are not explicit, things "disappear" metaphorically, the
story is told from within ("now"), etc.

Good stuff.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 87 17:09 EDT
From: James Jones <JAMES%vaxe.coe.northeastern.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Sam Delany

A friend asked me something that I thought I would pass on to
SF-LOVERS -- has anyone heard anything from Sam Delany lately?  I
heard a rumour that he died -- is that true?

Thanks for the info!

James Jones.
Northeastern Univ.
Boston, Mass.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 07:37:42 GMT
From: taylorj%byuvax.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: RE: Donaldson and Mirror of Her Dreams

Donaldson is working on the second book.  Actually, I think it's
only a duology(?), which means this is also the last book.  At the
rate he writes we've probably got another year or two to wait.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 02:42:43 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: How much for just the planet?

I recently picked up "How Much for Just the Planet?" at the
bookstore, primarily due to the discussion of the book on this list.
Having just finished it (in two readings), I've got a couple of
questions:

1.  Are all the ST Novels like this?  I assume they aren't, but if
there are any more like this one, I will certainly pick them up.
Are frequent allusions normally made to events that took place in
the TV episodes?

2.  Since I'm not really up on my Gilbert and Sullivan, does anyone
know the tunes to which the songs in the book are sung?  I was only
able to identify one which was rather obvious (The robot in the
"Bogie and Birdie" tavern sings "Falling Apart Again" to the tune of
"Falling in Love Again").

3.  Is the Ensign Ann Crispin mentioned in the book by any chance
A.C. Crispin, author of "Yesterday's Son?"

I think "How Much...?" would make a GREAT Star Trek movie.  How
about getting Rob Reiner to direct?  It would definitely be
different...

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Fone:  (301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 21:26:32 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: How much for just the planet?

russell@eneevax.umd.edu.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes:
>I recently picked up "How Much for Just the Planet?" at the
>bookstore, primarily due to the discussion of the book on this
>list.  Having just finished it (in two readings), I've got a couple
>of questions:
>
>1.  Are all the ST Novels like this?  I assume they aren't, but if
>there are any more like this one, I will certainly pick them up.
>Are frequent allusions normally made to events that took place in
>the TV episodes?

   Most of them are a little bit more serious...okay, a LOT more
serious.  This one was fun. Other good ones include The Romulan Way,
Ishmael, The Wounded Sky, My Enemy My Ally, The Entropy Effect, and
The Final Reflection. This by no means names all of the good novels.
Try to avoid The Klingon Gambit, Mutiny on the Enterprise, and Chain
of Attack.

>2.  Since I'm not really up on my Gilbert and Sullivan, does anyone
>know the tunes to which the songs in the book are sung?  I was only
>able to identify one which was rather obvious (The robot in the
>"Bogie and Birdie" tavern sings "Falling Apart Again" to the tune
>of "Falling in Love Again").

     Really...I wasn't aware of that one. The song which is sung by
the nomads to the Klingons, Sulu and McCoy is to the theme of
"Rawhide".

>3.  Is the Ensign Ann Crispin mentioned in the book by any chance
>A.C. Crispin, author of "Yesterday's Son?"

     Yes. There has been some conjecture that Ann's next Trek novel
("Time for Yesterday", I believe, a sequel to "Yesterday's Son",
another very good book and a must read, along with Howard
Weinstein's latest, "Deep Domain".) will have an Ensign John Ford in
it. This is starting to look like a mutual Tuckerism society.

>I think "How Much...?" would make a GREAT Star Trek movie.  How
>about getting Rob Reiner to direct?  It would definitely be
>different...

   Hear, hear. I'll talk to my producers about it. (Slipshawd
Productions, currently filming "Star Trek II: The Rock of Khan", a
sort of ST meets Rock Horror parody, and Toronto Trek Players,
currently at the 2nd draft stage on a script for next year's play.)

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 87 18:54:53 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Recently Read

Scott Turner (srt@cs.ucla.edu) writes:
>The Empire of Time            Crawford Killian
>   This is the second novel in the Chronoplane Wars series, which
>   tells the story of an Earth civilization that learns to open
>   portals into

A very minor correction: I believe that EoT was actually written
first and the other CW novel (published this year) is a prequel.
I'm quite sure about this because I have a fetish about reading
series novels by their copyright dates.  In hindsight, I wish I
*had* read these two novels in order, but, as usual, there's nothing
on the cover or in the end matter of either book to indicate their
"proper" order.

Killian seems to be one of the more interesting writers to make the
scene recently.  Although not your usual gadget freak, he
nevertheless has set out to write "hard" SF.  The result is
worthwhile, even if you have trouble with some of his premises.  (I
find his picture of a future dominated by beserk Evelyn Wood
disciples a *little* hard to swallow.)  I especially enjoyed the
scene where William Blake talks about reading "The Complete Works of
William Blake," none of which he's written yet.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 06:16:03 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Recently Read

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>Scott Turner (srt@cs.ucla.edu) writes:
>>The Empire of Time            Crawford Killian
>>   This is the second novel in the Chronoplane Wars series, which
>>   tells the story of an Earth civilization that learns to open
>>   portals into
>A very minor correction: I believe that EoT was actually written
>first and the other CW novel (published this year) is a prequel.

Whoops.  Right you are.  Empire of Time is copyright 1978, while The
Fall of The Republic is 1987.  Odd that they were written in that
order, since reading them out of order would leave Empire of Time
sadly under-motivated.

At any rate, Empire of Time is the second novel in the series (even
if it was written first) and they should be read in that order.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 15:28:36 GMT
From: pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck)
Subject: Re: Niven's World out of Time

>To change this discussion a bit, I submit that the State used
>humans for Rammers was not because computers couldn't do the job -
>I'm sure they could have, but because they had a corpsicle who was
>available and who owed the State.  What else were they going to do
>with him?

Corbell also had the option of serving as a dirt-low, nth class
citizen, where he would do simple menial labor, and maybe become a
cfull citizen in 15-30 years.

I submit that the onboard computer could not complete any E.V.As
(repairs).  Re,member, the computer didn't have the reasoning power
of Pierce until after escape, when they transmitted his
intelligence, or whatever into the computer.

It might also be unable to deal with changing the mission, if
needed, as needed.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 20:16:00 GMT
From: kaufman@p.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: _Princess_Bride_ / _Callahan's_ sim

Spider Robinson loved the book of The Princess Bride back when just
about nobody had heard about it.  In his anthology "Best of all
Possible Worlds", in which he and some other authors included their
favorite lesser-known stories, he included the duel scene from the
book, along with a plea in the accompanying note to find and buy the
book.  Which is exactly what I did after reading that scene, and I
haven't regretted it.

So the bit about the Montoya guitar in Callahan's Secret was a
direct and intentional ripoff, with the intent of being a tribute to
Goldman and TPB.  I think Robinson specifically mentions that in the
note following that story.

Ken Kaufman
kaufman@a.cs.uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 02:40:09 GMT
From: anich@puff.wisc.edu (Steven Anich)
Subject: Re: What's this about Tiptree? (was Heinlein damage?)

> what they are trying to say in their works. It's impossible to
> read Alice Sheldon's/James Tiptree Jr's material now without
> reflection on the role she and her husband played in world
> politics and without consideration of their final tragedy.
> Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"

What is this about Tiptree?  I've read her *Brightness Falls From
The Sky* and loved it.  Please fill me in on what you strongly imply
here.

steve anich
anich@puff.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 02:35:37 GMT
From: gatech!decvax!chaos!uokmax!gdscott@RUTGERS.EDU (Geoffrey Douglas
From: Scott)
Subject: NEED TO COMPLETE SERIES

   I am looking for an English published series by E.C. Tubb.  The
series is called THE DUMAREST SAGA. It is about a man who has
traveled far to the center of the universe where his home planet of
Earth is just a myth. He is constantly searching for clues that will
help him find Earth.
   Anyway, I have quite a bit of the series, but I am missing some
key books. If anyone can mail me a list of all the books so far in
the series, and where I can order them from I would sincerely
appreciate it.

   Thanks in advance.

Geoff Scott

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 06:48:37 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: NEED TO COMPLETE SERIES

gdscott@uokmax.UUCP (Geoffrey Douglas Scott) writes:
>   I am looking for an English published series by E.C. Tubb.  The
>series is called THE DUMAREST SAGA.

   Well, they are not originally English, but here is the list that
is up to date to 1985. To the best of my knowledge, they are still
in print, but I won't swear to it.

Title       Year        Publisher
The Winds of Gath 67    Ace
Derai   68      Ace
Toyman  69      Ace
Kalin   69      Ace
The Jester at Scar      70      Ace
Lallia  71      Ace
Technos 72      Ace
Veruchia        73      Ace
Mayenne 73      DAW
Jondelle        73      DAW
Zenya   74      DAW
Eloise  75      DAW
Eye of the Zodiac       75      DAW
Jack of Swords  76      DAW
Spectrum of a Forgotten Sun     76      DAW
Haven of Darkness       77      DAW
Prison of Night 77      DAW
Incident on Ath 78      DAW
The Quillian Sector     78      DAW
Web of Sand     79      DAW
Iduna's Universe        79      DAW
The Terra Data  80      DAW
World of Promise        80      DAW
Nectar of Heaven        81      DAW
The Terridae    81      DAW
The Coming Event        82      DAW
Earth is Heaven 82      DAW
Melome  83      DAW
Angado  84      DAW
The Symbol of Terra     84      DAW
The Temple of Truth     85      DAW

Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 16:08:32 GMT
From: lkeber@hawk.cs.ulowell.edu (LAK)
Subject: Amber stuff.

Hello;

   I just reread my hardcover "Trumps of Doom" and noticed on the
cover references to an "Amber Society" and "AmberCon". Could someone
who knows about these things send me info about them?

Thanks,
Larry

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #488
Date:  4 Nov 87 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #488
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Nov 87 0845-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #488
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Nov 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 488

Today's Topics:

                   Films - Nightflyers (3 msgs) &
                           The Lathe of Heaven (3 msgs) &
                           Lifeforce (3 msgs) &
                           Title Request & Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 87 21:17:00 GMT
From: mike@thumperbellcore.com (Michael Caplinger)
Subject: NIGHTFLYERS, the movie (no spoilers)

You'd think I'd have learned after DUNE and 2010 that Hollywood is
usually incapable of transforming a science fiction work to the
screen without trashing it.  Still, both DUNE and 2010 had their
moments.  So when I read about a year back that George R.R. Martin's
novella "Nightflyers" was being made into a movie, I was awaiting it
with some anticipation.

I needn't have bothered.  There are a number of liberties I expected
would be taken with the novella.  For example, Martin's heroine is a
black, very athletic woman -- though her being black was an
incidental in her society, so the casting of Mary Catherine Stewart
was perhaps forgivable -- as were the name changes and the almost
total disappearance of the enormously detailed background universe
that gives a Martin story an extra enjoyment.  In fact, in general I
have no complaints with the casting, the name changes, or the
illogical throwaway moving of the story's timeframe into the 21st
century.

But they ruined and bastardized the plot.  Even the massive amount
of violence present in the novella, while still here in large part,
is made completely gratuitous -- few of the violent events from the
novella even happen.  And the subtle interplay of the characters'
personalities, which made the novella so terrific, is gone here.
The most glaring omission is the absence of the heroine's superior
generic makeup (though at least they didn't make her a screamer.)

The special effects are poor by today's standards, but if they had
gone with the resources they had, casting, sets, and all, the
producers could have made a credible film version of "Nightflyers."
What they did make is celluloid trash.  And what they did to the
volcryn!

I'll be interested in seeing what people who aren't Martin fans
think of this film; I think it's poor by anyone's standards, but
I've been a Martin fan for a long, long time.  I give this film 0.5
stars out of 4.

I'd like to hear the story behind this film's scripting.  I hope
Martin got a good deal for the rights, because he couldn't have been
involved afterwards.

By the way: the main theme of the movie is a note-for-note steal of
one of the themes from BLADE RUNNER.  If I was Vangelis I'd sue, but
I don't think this turkey is going to make any money.

Mike Caplinger
mike@bellcore.com
{decvax,ihnp4}!thumper!mike

------------------------------

Date: 25 Oct 87 18:45:40 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: NIGHTFLYERS

                            NIGHTFLYERS
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  An incompetent adaptation of a mediocre
     novella add up to a must-miss science fiction film.  Besides
     seeing how someone managed to turn an obviously inadequate
     special effects budget into an impressive set of effects,
     this film has little going for it--certainly not the
     characters.  Rating: -1.

     I was recently discussing the new "Star Trek" series with some
fans who were unhappy with it.  The series is certainly weak in
ideas and my friends' solution was to solicit stories from
established science fiction writers.  I was somewhat doubtful that a
good story in incompetent hands would stay good for very long; I
remember the disappointment of seeing DUNE.  I think another case in
point of at least a fair story that did not fare well in the
transition to screen is "Nightflyers."  George R. R. Martin (who is
a pretty good writer) wrote the novella on which the film was based.
Admittedly, it is not his best work but it deserved a better shake
than it got in this weak and boring adaptation.

     The story deals with an expedition to a celestial phenomenon
which may or may not be connected with a hypothetical alien race
called the Volcryn.  The Nightflyer, the craft for the expedition,
is piloted by a crew of one, a mysterious young captain seen to the
other members of the expedition only as a life-sized hologram that
can appear whenever and wherever he (it?) wants.  Then mysterious
things start happening and people start getting killed and the
travelers suddenly have more to think about than an alien race.

     Well, that doesn't sound too bad.  That is all taken from
Martin's novella and this adaptation is at least Hollywood's idea of
"faithful to the original story," which is to say, yeah, much of the
plot is there and the plot of the film is more like the source story
than it is like any other story or film that comes to mind.  (Any
better than that and you start calling it a "literal adaptation.")

     So the story is recognizably Martin's "Nightflyers" and I will
say one more good thing for it: it has cheap special effects done
really well.  Someone very intelligently knows how to get 4/5 the
quality of effect at 1/5 the cost.  For that and other reasons I was
reminded more than once of DARK STAR.  But there is where my
charitable feelings toward NIGHTFLYERS end abruptly.

     I have rarely seen a bunch of characters I cared less about.  I
started counting the number left alive the way I used to count the
days left till summer vacation.  With the exception of the
expedition cook, the characters are developed pretty much by how
they argue with each other.  The direction is nearly humorless and
you watch through the whole film without them ever showing any
personality at all.  The hero should be something like Ripley in
ALIEN, but instead she looks like a lawyer's wife who has just
stepped out of the beauty parlor, with her high heels, her frosted
lipstick, and her big earrings.  The captain looks like a 1980s rock
star, complete with earring.  Much of the wardrobe and all of the
hairstyles are from the late 1980s in spite of the 21st Century
setting.  The science was laughable (if they let the air out of the
ship it would implode; noisy, smoking explosions in a vacuum--that
sort of thing).  The continuity was confusing and error-ridden.  I
know I would not want to fly a spaceship that uses burning torches
and candles for lighting.  The film even picks up a major fault of
the story: the audience can figure out what is going on much faster
than the people on the ship.  This is an amateur film which makes a
lot of amateur mistakes.  Rate it a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 87 22:44 EST
From: <HAXT2860%UDCVAX.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Nightflyers

Nightflyers...SF we've seen many times before. Computer out of
control takes over spaceship, the crew must stop it! There is more
to it than that but that's basically what it boils down to. In
watching this movie I got the feeling I was watching a 1945 B-movie.
The costumes- ridiculous, the sets- ridiculous( I mean we're suppose
to believe that this is taking place in the far future and they're
cooking in a modern day microwave, gas stoves, etc...). I found
myself talking to myself(well, I do that a lot anyway, but that's
beside the point). The physics in this movie was...yes yes
ridiculous!  In one scene the side of the ship is blown out. Three
crew members and everything else in that compartment are being blown
around like someone just opened an airline door. You know being
sucked out and everything. I've seen this before in other SF movies.
I would like to know from someone with better knowledge if this is
possible?(I guess since the cabin is pressurized, when there is an
opening it's like a balloon spewing out air...I don't know?). What I
do know is that after about ten minutes without oxygen the 2
surviving members would have been brain dead, but no, they simply
crawl to an exit. Also, there's a scene where the ship is falling
apart...keep in mind that the ship already has this gigantic hole in
the side...well anyway pieces of the ship are raining down on our
heros due to the effect of gravity,I guess but, what gravity?!! Not
to mention the last 2 survivors are *walking* around w/out *pressure
suits*.

I guess two young guys walking out behind me summed the movie up
best.  When asked by an usher "How'd you like the movie?", there
response was, "It was jive!".

R. Haxton
Univ. of DC
Computer Science

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 87 11:07 EDT
From: Fegman%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: The Lathe of Heaven

> I live in Washington, D.C. and years ago our local PBS station
> showed the movie *The Lathe of Heaven*. Years later, I finally
> read the book of the same name by Ursula (spelling?) LeGuin.  Now
> I am looking for the movie again...  Aside from waiting several
> more years for PBS to run it again, does anyone know where I can
> get hold of the film? Is it on video? Who made it? etc. etc.

The movie was, in fact, made by the Dallas P.B.S. affiliate.  It was
even shot in Dallas.  I have a little bad news for you though.  A
friend of mine was actually in the film and HE can't get a copy as
of the last time I saw him (about two years ago).  You're either
going to have to be an institution, which they seem to be partial
to, or wait till it is repaired.

It was a really great film though.  Even with some of the worst
acting I've seen in a long time, it still holds up because of sheer
innovation and design.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 01:44:25 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: RE: The Lathe of Heaven

> The movie was, in fact, made by the Dallas P.B.S. affiliate.  It
> was even shot in Dallas.  I have a little bad news for you though.
> A friend of mine was actually in the film and HE can't get a copy
> as of the last time I saw him (about two years ago).  You're
> either going to have to be an institution, which they seem to be
> partial to, or wait till it is reaired.
>
> It was a really great film though.  Even with some of the worst
> acting I've seen in a long time, it still holds up because of
> sheer innovation and design.

Please!  Fill us in!  I, too, am in the same position as the person
you were replying to.  I once saw "Lathe" the movie a long time ago,
and only much later read the book.  Ever since, I've been trying to
find someone else who had seen this movie.  I'd almost given up and
committed myself.

Give us SOME information on this movie.  If your friend was in it,
ask him who we should get in contact with to try and get a copy. (we
can but try)

Dan A.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 21:05:00 GMT
From: prism!jib@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven

I, too saw it years ago.  But there may be good news (for some of us
at least).  I read in a TV publication (TV Guide or the TV section
of one of the New York newspapers) that the Lathe of Heaven is being
reshown sometime later this season on WNET (channel 13 in NYC, PBS).
I think it is part of a 25th anniversary celebration at WNET, but
they didn't give a specific date.

Even if you are not in NY, if WNET can show it, I presume other PBS
stations can too.  I suggest that members (or potential members) of
PBS stations write and request it.  (The stations always claim to
want member input -- especially when a pledge drive is on.)

Jim Block
{cca,ihnp4!inmet,mit-eddie,wjh12,datacube}!mirror!prism!jib

------------------------------

Date: 1 Nov 87 01:27:34 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: _Lifeforce_

   Uhh, excuse me.  The movie _Lifeforce_ was based on a book by
Colin Wilson titled _Space Vampires_.  In the books, the author
explicitly makes a reference to vampires (if you didn't notice that
from the title), and the people in the book try to explain the
vampire stories of the past to past comings of the same spaceship.
So the similarities are not coincidences.

   By the way, despite Marc Leeper's opinion to the contrary, I
thought the movie sucked royally.  The book was more a mystery story
than a science fiction story and the "invasion" theme was just a
minor point.

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:   {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Inter:  swatsun!hirai@bpa.bell-atl.com
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 16:56:00 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!pixar!upstill@RUTGERS.EDU (Steve Upstill)
Subject: Re: LifeForce

    I'm sorry, I can't keep quiet any longer.  LIFEFORCE was a
dazzling piece of brainless spectacle.  Who CARES if the acting was
over the top?  Who CARES if the plot didn't make sense at several
points?  The sucker moved like lightning.  Absolutely without any
redeeming social or intellectual value, I enjoyed the hell out of it
for two reasons: 1) it showed me several things I'd never seen
before; 2) it did exactly what it set out to do: be the Ben Hur of
horror movies.  People who expect consistency, believable acting or
plausibility are simply watching the wrong movie.  Too bad.

Steve Upstill

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 14:07:45 GMT
From: mit-amt!mit-caf!lsrhs!schmidt@RUTGERS.EDU (Chris Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Lifeforce

Come on, this was one of the worst films per buck per
intention-to-be-taken- seriously ever made.  It suffered from the
typical sci-fi malady: no strong central character, weak illogical
plot, inelegant and unsubtle action.  It's ONLY strength (again, a
symptom common to most bad sci-fi) was its central idea.  More and
more I think that those with good fantastical concepts should run,
not walk, to their nearest real storyteller/writer (someone who's
spent as much time thinking about all the structural and character
issues central to fictionalizing) and dump it full into that lucky
person's lap.

Chris Schmidt
Lincoln-Sudbury High School
390 Lincoln Rd
Sudbury Ma 01776
(617) 926-3242
mit-caf!lsrhs!schmidt@eddie.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 18:41:07 GMT
From: harvard!linus!bs@RUTGERS.EDU (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Wanted: Movie Title

I'm looking for the title of a somewhat old movie involving a
spacecraft returning from a planetary exploration (I think it was
Mars). While exploring an alien creature, sort of like a large
gorilla or ape stowed aboard and is slowly wiping out the crew on
the return trip. The movie deals with the attempts of the crew to
deal with this creature. As I recall it is eventually killed by
exposure to vacuum when it finally penetrates the upper levels of
the ship. I'm not even sure it was a movie. It may have been a
twilight zone or outer limits episode.

Does this ring any bells?

Bob Silverman

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 15:36:23 GMT
From: rochester!cci632!mark@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark Stevans)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Movie Title

The movie was "It: The Terror from Beyond Space".  "Alien" was
basically a clone of It, with updated special effects, better
pacing, and very sick Freudian horror added.

Believe me: the plot outlines are almost identical, like when It
gets into the air ducts and the captain goes in alone after It, and
gets it (not It -- It gets him).

Mark Stevans
cci632!mark

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  4-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #489
Date:  4 Nov 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #489
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  4 Nov 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #489
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 4 Nov 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 489

Today's Topics:

            Books - Gibson (2 msgs) & Rucker (3 msgs) &
                    Yarbro (2 msgs) & Story Answer &
                    Short Reviews & Story Request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 16:34:04 GMT
From: smeyer@topaz.rutgers.edu (Seth Meyer)
Subject: Neuromancer

I've been reading Neuromancer, by William Gibson, and I am about
half-way finished.  Can anyone help give me an idea of what is going
on in this book.  I am really lost!

Also, is it true that Gibson never used a computer prior to writing
this book?

Thanks...

Seth Meyer

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 06:35:42 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer

smeyer@topaz.rutgers.edu (Seth Meyer) writes:
>I've been reading Neuromancer, by William Gibson, and I am about
>half-way finished.  Can anyone help give me an idea of what is
>going on in this book.  I am really lost!

Part of the greatness of _Neuromancer_ is that you seem to dive into
the middle of a universe wired on the sheer speed of a fastlane
lifestyle where you are not acquainted with the culture and
omnipresent cyberjargon. When I read the book I also felt lost. I
think you are supposed to -- it's part of the effect.  When I read
_Neuromancer_ my biggest impression was that I was wandering around
randomly in a whirlwind of cyberspace and silicon and hightech and
visual abstractions (notice that the book is literally *filled* with
ocular metaphors and visuals: Molly's eyes, cyberspace, etc. Also,
have you noticed that the *colors* of things as described in the
book are almost *exclusively* NON-colors:black, white, grey,
pink-so-light-it's-almost-white, and many many metallic colors:
chrome, steel, aluminum, brass, copper, bronze... Hardly anywhere do
you get to se anyone wearing any clothing that is not black (if they
are male) or black, white, and really-really-light-pink (if they are
female)), but that in spite of (and in the face of) this huge pile
of visuals, I felt as if I was totally blind and groping. Everything
was described in terms of visuals, yet I couldn't SEE anything.

I found, when reading _Count Zero_, Neuromancer's sequel, that much
of __Neuromancer's_ magic was lost when you are already familiar
with Gibson's universe. _Count Zero_ also seemed to me to be a much
shallower book -- whipped off to ride on _Neuromancer's_ sales and
the trendy universe contained therein -- but I was pleasantly
surprised that Gibson did not let his universe stagnate (as is so
often the case in series of books -- the universe is created in the
first book, and then it never changes or grows in any of those
subsequent.). He actually pretty much began a technical revolution
in _Count Zero_ (hard to believe that he could get *more* radical
technologically after _Neuromancer_!) with the advent of biosoft and
such.

_Count Zero_ also seemed to (unfortunately) pander to the
12-year-olds who got off on _Neuromancer_ by including that
kid-cowboy character. Kind of like "The Wiz Kids" or Wesley Crusher
on ST:TNG -- sickening. This, more than anything else, pulled _Count
Zero_ down to the level of slightly-above-average SF at best, in my
opinion, whereas _Neuromancer_ was more like BEST SF NOVEL OF THE
80's AGE OF SLICK.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 87 19:04:42 GMT
From: mimsy!eneevax!russell@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher Russell)
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

>From: gruber.pa@xerox.com
>2. What novels are precursors to this sub-genre?
>3. What authors do you think influenced its creation?
>       (similar to question 2)

Just yesterday I got around to buying "Neuromancer" and while I was
looking at books in the store, I came across a book entitled
"Software" (I can't remember the author), but the cover of the book
claimed that it started cyberpunk.  Anyone know if there is any
truth to this?  Is the book worth picking up?

Chris Russell
Computer Aided Design Lab
University of Maryland
Fone:  (301)454-8886
Arpa:  russell@king.ee.umd.edu
UUCP:  ...!seismo!umcp-cs!eneevax!russell
Jnet:  russell@umcincom

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 02:18:01 GMT
From: krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens)
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

russell@eneevax.umd.edu.UUCP (Christopher Russell) writes:
>From: gruber.pa@xerox.com
>>2. What novels are precursors to this sub-genre?
>>3. What authors do you think influened its creation?
>Just yesterday I got around to buying "Neuromancer" and while I was
>looking at books in the store, I came across a book entitled
>"Software" (I can't remember the author), but the cover of the book
>claimed that it started cyberpunk.  Anyone know if there is any
>truth to this?  Is the book worth picking up?

Software is sitting on my shelf, waiting for me to catch up with an
incredible list of books, mostly queued by a special penpal, but I
have read other books by Rudy Rucker and found his twists and turns
delightful.  His math/physics background is clear in his writing, as
well.  I don't know whether Software started it all (as the cover
suggests), but if it's up to his other works, it should be a good
read.

Kristopher Stephens
Amdahl Corporation
(408-746-6047)
{whatever}!amdahl!krs
krs@amdahl.amdahl.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 21:39:31 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

krs@amdahl.amdahl.com (Kris Stephens) writes:
>Software is sitting on my shelf, waiting for me to catch up with an
>incredible list of books, [...]  have read other books by Rudy
>Rucker and found his twists and turns delightful.  His math/physics
>background is clear in his writing, as well.  I don't know whether
>Software started it all (as the cover suggests), but if it's up to
>his other works, it should be a good read.

There was quite a bit of hoo-hah (or some, at least) on the net
awhile ago about "Software," enough so that I went ahead and
purchased it.  I read it last week, and I fail to see what the
hoo-hah was all about.  It's an ok story, no question, but only ok.
I never cared about the characters, the issues the book raised were
not followed through on, and it was a *shallow* book.  Nonetheless,
you could do worse.

"The book that started it all?"  Not a chance.  That has to be just
media hype.  It barely qualifies as cyberpunk, if you ask me.

Incidentally, I should probably point out that "Software" is only
the second Rudy Rucker book I've read.  I have also read "Master of
Space and Time," which is, in my opinion, not worth the paper it's
printed on.  I assumed at the time that RR was new to the field and
that MOSAT was his first book.  It was very amateurishly written,
and I have always had a hard time with authors that write themselves
into their own books.

Just my $0.02.  Don't let that stop you from reading it.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 87  17:02 EST
From: DEGSUSM%YALEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Yarbro

Can anyone provide a list of *everything* written by Chelsea Quinn
Yarbro?  I am aware of all her vampire novels, _Nomads_, and _False
Dawn_; I know there is at least one other because I remember it as
the only book of hers I have ever read which I did not enjoy.  It
was called _A Mortal Glamour_ or something like that; I have it at
home but am blanking on the exact name.  I also seem to recall an
anthology (not _Saint-Germain Chronicles_).  Help?  Chuq?

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 03:49:54 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Yarbro

My list isn't close to complete. I can say that she's written at
least 36 books, since that was the number she gave me a while back.
A lot of that is Horror or other flavor books.  She's also the
author of the "Michael" series (I think that's the name) but I'm not
familiar with them. Anyone want to fill out the rest of this list?

A Baroque Fable [Tor books? A Gilbert&Sullivan Fantasy Quest Parody]
Firecode [Tor Books. Horror]
The St. Germain Chronicles (Out of Print, coming from Tor Books)
   Blood Games
   Tempting Fate
   Hotel Transylvania
   Path of the Eclipse
   The Palace
   The St. Germain Chronicles
The Olivia Series (Tor books)
A Flame in Byzantium

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 04:08:21 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.psu.edu (Scott E. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Help with Story Name/Author

jchung@cad.UUCP (James E. Chung) writes:
>He hung around with the head engineer of the space program and
>appeared to have no useful function.  However, he really was the
>source of the engineers inspired ideas.

Like it says in the Summary, the story is "Does a bee care" by Dr.
A.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 07:11:45 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Recently Read

An occasional feature.  All books recommended except as noted.

The Summer Tree                                 Guy Gavriel Kay
The Wandering Fire

   These are the first two books in the Fionavar Tapestry.  They are
fairly conventional High Fantasy.  I call these kinds of books
"cavalry to the rescue" fantasy, because much of the book consists
of getting one or more of the heroes into a bad situation (We're
surrounded by orcs!) and then having rescuing forces ride in from
over the horizon (What luck!  The elves have broken their age-old
isolation to fight the orcs!).  Despite this slant and a rather
undeveloped writing style, these books are quite good, and manage to
capture some of the fire that Tolkien's books have when first read.

100 Great Science Fiction Short Short Stories   Isaac Asimov (editor)

   This is an old collection (1978) but still a great read.  Its
fascination is that extremely short sf stories are stripped to their
essence - good ideas and twist endings.  Lately the literary trend
in SF has been away from these ideals (and rightfully so), but it is
invigorating to read these crystalline gems.

Bipohl                                             Frederick Pohl

   This is a reissue of two classic Pohl novels from the 1960s,
Drunkard's Walk and Age of the Pussyfoot.  In one, a man is
committing suicide against his will.  In the other, a man is
cryogenically frozen and awakes in a future that surpasses his
dreams.  Both are solid story ideas well-treated, and worth reading
if you haven't seen them before.

Silence in Solitude                                Melissa Scott

   This is the sequel to Five-Twelths of Heaven, which (I presume)
starts the story of Silence, the first female pilot and mage in an
interstellar society.  Because of her talents and a map she
possesses, Silence is perfectly suited to find the lost Earth.  This
tells the story of her attempt.

   Melissa Scott won the Campbell Award (best new writer).  Not
having read any of her other work, I presume that the award was
based on earlier writing.  This novel, while not bad, is certainly
not outstanding.  The plot is a bit difficult to swallow at times:
an interstellar society and there's never been a woman pilot or
mage?  And no particular ramifications/discussions/investigations of
this?  An interstellar society with widespread moral puritanism?
Feudalism?  All of these things might well have a place, but Silence
in Solitude makes no attempt to explain or justify these facets of
the society - they exist only to prop up the story.

The Empire of Time                                 Crawford Killian

   This is the second novel in the Chronoplane Wars series, which
tells the story of an Earth civilization that learns to open portals
into parallel Earths at different points in their history.  In the
first novel, a portal opened into the future shows a devastated
Earth, apparently destroyed by a space weapon of incredible power.
In this book, Jerry Pierce discovers the how and why of the Earth's
destruction.

How Much For Just the Planet                        John M. Ford

   The book so highly (and repeatedly) recommended by the net.  I
found it amusing but not side-splitting.  The book is an homage of
sorts to silent comedians and early movies, and I think the humor is
diluted by dint of being set in the Star Trek universe.  Further,
the set-up for the story is so contrived and artificial (the
Organians, etc.) that it interferes with the rest of the story.
Trek-afficiandos will enjoy this book, but if Trek books aren't your
cup of tea you'll only find this passable.

Hard Wired                                        Walter Jon Williams

   The best of the cyberpunk novels to date.  This is the story of
various lowlifes (in more ways than one) who are struggling to stay
alive and prosper on an Earth that is being dominated by an emerging
orbital culture.  At the character level this is a good book, with
characters that grow, develop and struggle real struggles.  But this
book also tells - in a sideways fashion - the story of a cultural
struggle between an emerging technology and the old ways.  A friend
found the narrative style (historical present) pompous, but I still
recommend the book highly.

The Crown Jewels                                  Walter Jon Williams

   The author's bibliography lists this book rather pompously as
"Divertimenti", but that's a fairly apt description.  It's an
amusing story about a thief who steals a precious alien artifact and
must deal with the (manifold) complications that result.  A fun
read, but with nowhere near the kind of thought and detail obvious
in Hard Wired.

Battle Station                                       Ben Bova

   A collection of alternating short stories and essays loosely tied
together by the theme of "military in space".  The stories are fine.
I didn't bother with the essays; I buy my political opinions in bulk
at a local store.

Martian Spring                                Michael Lindsay Williams

   A massive explosion on Mars hastens the planet's once-a-millenia
springtime.  Life flowers and Martians climb out of the ground.  An
interesting premise (based as it is in realistic speculation), but
the development, plot and writing are poor.  Not recommended.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 13:52 EST
From: Mike Pagan <MPAGAN%rca.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Black Easter

   A few recent postings have mentioned a book by James Blish(?)
entitled _Black_Easter_.  This reminded me of a book I read a long,
long time ago which may or may not be the same one.  It was written
as a screenplay or something like that, and it dealt with
Armageddon.  Not conventional nuclear holocaust, but biblical
end-of-the-world stuff.  My beer-ravaged memory recalls the city of
Dis (that which encircles the inner levels of hell) rising up out of
the Arizona desert (thus making the rest of the earth the outer
reaches of hell).  I vividly remember descriptions of modern,
high-tech weapons being used against demons.  In particular (for
some reason this sticks with me) they used something called a "Hesse
Torpedo" (sort of a burrowing land torpedo) against the walls of the
city itself.  Unfortunately, I was very young when I read it, so I
was only interested in the action and did not absorb the true plot
which may have been some sort of morality play.  I read it
approximately 10 years ago.
   I wouldn't have given it much more attention, normally, except
that I noticed a line in David Brin's _The_Uplift_War_ which
described something as looking like a scene from David Lynch's
adaptation of _Black_Easter_.  Surprise, surprise! I am reasonably
certain that Lynch has not (yet) directed such a movie.

Mike Pagan
MPAGAN@rca.com
RCA Advanced Technology Labs
Moorestown, NJ

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #490
Date:  9 Nov 87 0834-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #490
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 87 0834-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #490
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 490

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Adams & Bear & Blish &
                           Brust (3 msgs) & Card & 
                           Delany & Henderson & 
                           Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 87 19:56 N
From: <AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (MAARTEN VAN DANTZICH)
Subject: Dirk Gently's Holistic Agency (Minor Spoiler, lengthy)

 In reply to a few messages about Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective
Agency (Douglas Adams' latest book) on the net recently, and
especially the one from Lindsay Marshall in SF-Lovers #481, I'd like
to bother you people with my opinion on the book. This message is
rather lengthy, and has lots of subjective views in it -- so be
warned :-)

 Yes, it is quite different from the Hitch Hiker's series, but this
is exactly the point. Adams has said at more than one point that he
was "out of steam" for the Hitch Hiker's characters, and wanted to
move on to something else. I think he succeeded quite well.
 The humor in Dirk Gently's is indeed more subtle than in Hitch
Hiker's. I always tend to put HH's under the header "humor" rather
than "science fiction", because the great strength of the book is
obviously the unfaltering humor all the way through. (At least
through the first books -- the humor is less in So Long and Thanks
for all the Fish, which is probably why most people dislike So Long.
I myself see So Long somewhat apart from the first three books --
and it now appears to me as a transition phase that Adams went
through between the first three books and Dirk Gently's.
Nonetheless, I think So Long is a very nice book.)
 I find the strength of Dirk Gently's in the plot. It is indeed
incredibly holistic: it all adds up exactly, and every time you
reread the book you keep finding things which you didn't see before.
The first time I read Dirk Gently's I wasn't bothered at all about
anything not making sense, but afterwards I was left with the
question "What the h*ll exactly happened??" I reread it and found I
understood it better, especially after talking with some friends
about it -- together we solved quite of few of our questions.
 (**BEGIN SPOILER**) For instance the thing with the sofa being
stuck on the stairs. At a certain moment, Dirk Gently is visiting
Richard's "office" to get the tape from Susan's answering machine.
He sees the sofa spinning on the computer screen, plays around with
it, and finds he can get it out, but he has to rotate a piece of the
wall in order to be able to do this. As you may have noticed, this
is exactly what happens later on: they arrive at Richard's place
with the time machine, and the door which functions as the time
machine's exit is exactly the piece of rotating wall needed to be
able to move the sofa up the stairs... And this sort of subtle
plotting is going on all the time.
 (**END SPOILER**)
 The point has been made that you need to know a few things about
Coleridge in order to be able to understand the book fully. This is
true, although I do not think it hinders the appreciation of the
book. I recently found out what the reference to Coleridge more or
less means (I dare not say I understand it completely as I thought
that a week ago, but found I was wrong :-), and I like the book even
more for it. Same goes for the jokes about the Macs ("Monk Plus" heh
heh heh!! :-) -- I have a Mac and think it is a very nice machine,
and enjoyed the jokes Adams makes about them immensely. But I think
that other people can read over them and still like the book. It
simply is like that: the plot is so intricate that you are bound to
miss _something_.
 And as for "quitting while he's ahead", as Ms Marshall suggested: I
would like people to stop telling writers to stop. This has been
said about Heinlein, and I would like the writers themselves to make
up their minds.  There are people out there who enjoy these works
(although I must admit Mr.Heinlein's latest (last?) wasn't of high
standing -- no replies please, we've had that discussion) and if you
don't like them, there's one very simple solution: don't buy them
anymore. As for writing to make money: this sort of thing happens in
all businesses - and it is exactly my opinion on the I*M
corporation, to be honest. But I let them be, and buy a Macintosh
instead...

 Let me add that my opinion is one-sided: I'm a fan of Mr. Adams and
won't deny it. I seem to like almost everything he does, and not
because HE does it, but simply because he simply does great things.
I started with the Hitch Hiker's and may have read it about 10 times
by now... it's hard to count as I sometimes just pick it up and read
a few chapters. Then there was The Meaning of Liff (sic) which may
not be as well known, but which is a great piece of weirdness.
 I liked the short story connected with Hitch Hiker's ("Young Zaphod
plays it safe") less, but I think he's back on the right track now
with Dirk Gently's. I'm looking forward to the second part (It says
"To be continued..." at the end) which he should finish by the end
of the year if I remember correctly. So it may come out in hardcover
sometime next spring -- but Adams has a way of running over
deadlines. (As anyone who has read his interviews and the comment in
The Original Radio Scripts already knows.)
 In fact, I fear greatly that Dirk Gently's II may be delayed as Mr.
Adams is said to be building a true Hitch Hiker's Guide to the
Galaxy!! He's got hold of Apple's new HyperCard program and
obviously had exactly the same thought as I had when I first saw it:
this would make a terrific basis for The Guide!!

 I've said enough. The conclusion is that I _do_ recommend people
to go out and buy Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, but they
might want to wait for the paperback edition.

 Happy Reading,

Maarten
AERTS@HLERUL5.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 87 08:15:40 GMT
From: hplabs!well!mandel@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Mandel)
Subject: Greg Bear's The Forge of God

I have increasingly enjoyed Bear's novels as he has matured as a
writier, with _Blood Music_ and _Eon_ among my two most recent
favorite science fiction novels.  Now I can also heartily recommend
his recently published _The Forge of God_, which attractively
embraces themes explored earlier by Gregory Benford and Fred
Saberhagen (hostile civilizations of von Neumann machines) and
Arthur C. Clarke in _Childhood's End_.

Tom Mandel
mandel@kl.sri.com
well!mandel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 87 15:07:29 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Black Easter

>   A few recent postings have mentioned a book by James Blish(?)
>entitled _Black_Easter_.  This reminded me of a book I read a long,
>long time ago which may or may not be the same one.  It was written

Yes, that's Black Easter. It is a sequel (of sorts) to Day of
Judgment.  In DoJ the setting is a variant of the
Science-and-Magic-is-equally-valid world. A Black magician is hired
by a rich arms dealer, who wants to create the ultimate in
"aestethic destruction", i.e. to unleash all the demons of Hell for
one night (the Walpurgis Night). The magician loses control of the
demons (they don't want to go back to Hell afterwards), and the
result is seen in Black Easter.

Kai Quale
QUALE%SI.UNINETT@TOR.NTA.NO
Centre for Industrial Research
Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 87 15:07:33 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Recently Read

I just read a book by a (to me) completely unknown author by the
name of Stephen Brust. The title escapes me (I'm at work, my book is
at home), but I think it was something like "A Dragon in Paradise".
The cover was terrible : Busty Blonde riding a dragon, some kind of
weapon in her hand.  I would never have touched the book if it
hadn't been recommended by a friend.
  It turned out to be brilliant. It is a retelling of the Fall of
Satan, seen from the latter's viewpoint. After the first few pages,
I wondered, like Zelazny in the foreword, how on earth he was going
to bring it off.  But it works, beautifully. Highly recommended.

Kai Quale
QUALE%SI.UNINETT@TOR.NTA.NO
Centre for Industrial Research
Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 02:21:16 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Recently Read

From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no>
>I just read a book by a (to me) completely unknown author by the
>name of Stephen Brust. The title escapes me (I'm at work, my book
>is at home), but I think it was something like "A Dragon in
>Paradise". The cover was terrible : Busty Blonde riding a dragon,
>some kind of weapon in her hand.  I would never have touched the
>book if it hadn't been recommended by a friend.
>  It turned out to be brilliant. It is a retelling of the Fall of
>Satan, seen from the latter's viewpoint. After the first few pages,
>I wondered, like Zelazny in the foreword, how on earth he was going
>to bring it off.  But it works, beautifully. Highly recommended.

Kai,
   I'm sure you've made Steve very happy, as he occasionally joins
us here on USENet.  He has written several other well-received
novels, of which Jehrig, Yendle and Tekla (all probably misspelled!)
come to mind at once.  These all tell the story of a young man
working his way up in a particularly nasty world as an assassin.  It
doesn't help that he is burdened with scruples!

   Recommended!

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 21:11:05 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: Recently Read

From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no>
> I just read a book by a (to me) completely unknown author by the
> name of Stephen Brust. The title escapes me (I'm at work, my book
> is at home), but I think it was something like "A Dragon in
> Paradise".

No--it was _To Reign in Hell_.  No dragons in this one, just angels.
:-)

>   It turned out to be brilliant. It is a retelling of the Fall of
> Satan, seen from the latter's viewpoint. After the first few
> pages, I wondered, like Zelazny in the foreword, how on earth he
> was going to bring it off.  But it works, beautifully. Highly
> recommended.

I liked it, but it bothered me because the characters were so
naive.  Of course, you'd expect them to be, but still...

If you liked _TRiH_, give Brust's other books a try: the Vlad Taltos
series (_Jhereg_, _Yendi_, _Teckla_), which is good light reading,
and _Brokedown Palace_, which is a little harder to get through but
seems to be setting something up (although a sequel is never
explicitly implied).  In fact, there was some discussion of the
possible relationship between the events in _Palace_ and in the
Taltos series.

He also has another book out which I haven't read; I believe it was
_The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_, and was a retelling of an old
Hungarian fairy tale (Brust is of Hungarian descent; in all his
books but _To Reign in Hell_ you can tell just by the names).

nj
...!ihnp4!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 20:58:31 GMT
From: kimi@ablnc.att.com (Kimiye)
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card (and F. Pohl)

boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>From:  buddy.Berkeley.EDU!c60b-ej      (Mary Kuhner)
> Back in 1979, Card came out with two books that comprised "The
> Worthing Chronicles": CAPITOL and HOT SLEEP. The latter was an
...
> 1983, Card reshuffled, compacted, and rewrote the series into
> one volume called THE WORTHING CHRONICLE.
>>    Are there legal guidelines, pitfalls, etc. in publishing a
>> book containing substantial material from your previous books?
> The only real pitfall is pissing off your fans who don't like buying
> the same story over again.

At NecronomiCon (Tampa) the other weekend, Card said he hoped to
keep HOT SLEEP off the market because it was inferior.  He also
mentioned that A PLANET CALLED TREASON will be reissued and he hoped
the publisher would allow him to rewrite it as well.  SONGMASTER is
currently reissued in paperback (unchanged).

Other tidbits: SEVENTH SON's original manuscript carried the
subtitle "Part 1 of the Tales of Alvin Maker", but it was removed by
the publisher, to Card's dismay, especially noting the price tag.
He has signed for five books with Tor, but believes the series will
run six (he rattled off the names so fast I couldn't catch any but a
couple refering to Alvin and one called THE CRYSTAL CITY).  Card
will have finished the series by the end of the year--no telling
when we will see it in print.

Card has another long series contracted (I think he called it the
Homecoming) that he says will look like old fashioned space opera
resembling Andre Norton's GALACTIC DERELICT.

And from another Necro guest--Frederick Pohl's CHERNOBYL is set to
be a TV mini-series directed by Larry Schiller (PETER THE GREAT) who
is now contracting Russian actors to learn English before filming
starts next year.  Pohl does note that he doesn't count on anything
out of Hollywood until he actually sees the film and has the check
in the bank.  Pohl's next book will be from Ballantine, called
NOREBEDLA LIMITED, (Aldeberon backwards), and will concern aliens
who kidnap opera singers.  Well, that's what he said.  Card
commented that this must be Pohl's venture into "serious" science
fiction, and Pohl agreed.

This was a good con, by the way, as small area s-f cons go.  The
dealers' room was disappointing (costumes and games, few books), but
the panels were excellent.

Kimiye Tipton
{ihnp4, clyde, ulysses, codas}!ablnc!kimi

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 87 10:03:35 EST
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cca.bbn.com>
Subject: Samuel R. Delany
To: JAMES%vaxe.coe.northeastern.edu@relay.cs.net

    James Jones asks about a rumour that "Sam Delany" died.  Unless
it was VERY recent, it's not true.  Samuel R. Delany ("Chip" to his
friends, never "Sam") is alive and well, and according to the
current issue of Science Fiction Chronicle, he just received an
appointment to the faculty of the University of Massachusetts at
Amherst, with immediate tenure. SF Chronicle says he will begin
teaching there in September 1988.
    Delany is also scheduled to be the guest of honor at Readercon,
to be held in Boston in September of 1988.

    Perhaps the rumour has gotten Delany confused with James Tiptree
or Alfred Bester, both of whom died this year.

Morris

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 01:38:23 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!mandrill!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Story Title Request

maslak@sri-unix.ARPA (Valerie Maslak) writes:
>which female SF author wrote the wonderful short stories about The
>People, refugees from a crashed spaceship who were "passing for
>human" in Appalachia? One of the stories was made into a TV movie
>with Kim Darby awhile ago, about a teacher with "special" students
>who shuffled when they walked so their feet wouldn't leave the
>ground....

Zenna Henderson.  The books are THE PEOPLE and THE PEOPLE: NO
DIFFERENT FLESH.  I consider myself lucky that, after much futile
searching, I found both at a locak second-hand bookstore recently.
(These books are story collections; the individual stories are
connected in the framework of another story.  Well done.)

The made-for-TV movie (I missed it, but reviews I've read on the Net
are not encouraging) is apparently (loosely) based on a story in the
first book (I can't check the title, I just lent it to my mother;
and she _d*mned_ well better return it!  ;-).

Brandon S. Allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu
{harvard!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal,uunet!hnsurg3}
   !ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 87 15:51:13 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Amber RPG

The Winter '86 West End catalog had a plug for a forthcoming game
based on Amber and called Amber. I wonder why. In any case, does
anybody know anything about the game--i.e., when it's coming out,
what it's like, etc., and so on?

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #491
Date:  9 Nov 87 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #491
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 87 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #491
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 491

Today's Topics:

                Miscellaneous - Star Trek (16 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 87 12:52 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG: "Where no thing has gone before"

I'm confused: Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?

George Barbanis
UMass Amherst

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 87 16:46:41 CST
From: Wayne Keen <WKEEN3%UA1VM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Enterprise (the shuttle)

    One little technical note on the shuttle Enterprise discussion.
The Enterprise, which was used in the unpowered flight tests WAS in
fact supposed to be rebuilt after testing into a space worthy
shuttle.  The original plan was for the Enterprise to have been the
second shuttle into space. (After Columbia).  Enterprise turned out
to be too far overweight to be of use, so it was never rebuilt.  It
is used from time to time for testing, including recent tests of a
shuttle restraint system to be used for landings at the Cape.
(if/when there is another Cape landing ;)

Wayne Keen
WKEEN3@UA1VM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1987 16:28 PST
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: STTNG:  Where No One Has Gone Before

    Finally!  An episode that is worth criticizing!  I think it was
the best one so far.  I know I'm not the only person who was hoping
they'd start using the ST novels as inspiration for their scripts,
and I think "Wounded Sky" was a very good place to start.

    For those of you who haven't read it, "Wounded Sky" was about a
new kind of warp drive that sends the Enterprise a few thousand
light years beyond our Galaxy, into an area where the line between
physical reality and spiritual reality becomes blurred, if not
nonexistent.  Sound familiar?  However, the book goes a LOT further
with this premise than the show did.  If you liked the show, get the
book.

    The effects were very nice.  For once, they were used to do
something unique, and not just to fill up time.  My biggest
criticism was of Troi (I know, everyone flames on her).  In one of
the last scenes, she says something like, "I feel a great sense of
well-being throughout the ship."  If you read the book, you will
find that same idea, only it is expressed about a million times more
eloquently.

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
CADS079@Calstate.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: TUE NOV 03, 1987 20.07.41 EST
From: "Captain R. Jackson" <RJ00%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek .. The New Generation..

    I have watched with great bemusement and annoyance the chatter
about what the military ranks in Star Trek are, and decided to
settle this once and for all. They are simply following Naval
tradition, as they did in the old, only they are using Dots instead
of stripes:

   1 dot = ensign
   1 dot filled and 1 open = Lieutenant JG
   2 dots closed = Lieutenant
   2 dots closed and 1 open = Lt. Commander
   3 dots closed = commander
   4 dots closed = captain

I know that in the second season of the old, the Federation did away
with ensigns wearing any stripes for awhile due to the fact that
there aren't any ranks below ensign on Starships (generally) and
bumped Captain Kirk down to three broad stripes (or three closed
dots). This also explains one of the earliest questions about why
Data can be treated like "dirt" by Ryker via their ranks.
   As for the "counselor" ranks, it would be either a Lt. Commander
or Commander; but like the doctor, is NOT in the direct chain of
command. (Or so the role playing books put out by FASA have directed
and generally they have been correct).

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 21:29:58 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: STTNG: "Where no thing has gone before"

From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@relay.cs.net>
>I'm confused: Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
>Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?

  Riker said something to Kozinski along the lines of "You'll be
working with one of our Chief Engineers...Lt. Commander Argyle."
This occurred in the Transporter room. David Gerrold's Encounter at
Farpoint novelisation also mentioned Lt. Cmdr. Argyle, but made no
mention of McDougall.

  Maybe McDougall couldn't cope with Wesley and transferred off the
ship... :-)

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 87 14:29:36 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Humanity

LEE_JES@CTSTATEU.BITNET writes:
> Which is something that bugs me... Throughout the Writers' Guide,
> Roddenberry uses key phrases such as "expand the body of HUMAN
> knowledge" (the capitals are mine), "provide understanding of the
> universe and HUMANITY'S place in it"...  What about Vulcanity?  Or
> Klingonity?  Or Vogonity?  (Oops, wrong series.)  What I object to
> is that he automatically treats other races as inferiors...
> Humans aren't at the top of the heap, ya know!

Diane Duane uses the term "humanity" in her ST books, too--the 500
different types of humanity.  I would assume each language
translates the word differently (500 types of Vulcanity, Klingonity,
etc.)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 03:00:07 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re: Chief engineer

BARBANIS@cs.umass.edu writes (3-Nov-87):
> I'm confused:  Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
> Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?

This is something that also bothered me about the episode.  I
suppose we are to assume that the chief engineer and assistant from
"The Naked Now" either filed for a transfer after realizing what
nutcases the crew of this one was, OR that the new Galaxy Class
enterprise is SO wowie wow huge that they can afford to carry
multiple chief engineers on board and switch them every now and
then...

Of course, the latter might suggect that the new enterprise also
carries an alternate bridge crew, doctor, etc..., paving the way for
another show about the adventures of the alternate crew while this
crew is off duty.  (This is beginning to sound like Jason of Star
Command) And, of course, during "The Last Outpost" Jordy seemed to
take over the position of Chief Engineer.  ("Right on! What a
super-froobie idea, Riker!!")_

Seriously, I think it was a bad move not to make the chief engineer
one of the main characters.  Disregarding a fear of making the show
too much like the old ST, the chief engineer is certainly a major
part of the operation of the starship.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 03:27:03 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Capt. Piccard in "Excalibur"

    I see that some of the netters have already pointed out the
ST:TNG's Patrick Stewart (Capt. Piccard) also played Gurney Halleck
in "Dune".  Has anyone noticed that, before that, he played the part
of Leon de Grans (the father of Guenivere (sp.)) in John Boorman's
"Excalibur"?

Mark F. Cook
USMail: Software Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 18:00:23 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: STTNG: "Where no thing has gone before"

>I'm confused:  Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
>Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?

From the episodes seen so far, it appears that the chief engineer is
an open role. How they will reconcile that with story "reality" will
be interesting. There is precedence for this. The role of helmsman
and navigator in ST were also open roles in the beginning. It wasn't
until the second season that Sulu and Chekov were regularly manning
the helm.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 87 12:55 EST
From: <LEE_JES%CTSTATEU.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Jeffrey S. Lee -
From: CCSU)
Subject: RE:  Star Trek shuttlecraft and transporters

David Guntner writes:
>LEE_JES@CTSTATEU.BITNET says:
>> If it ruins the story, I suppose, the technology is disposable.
>> (Cf the lack of the shuttlecraft in "The Enemy Within".)
>
>What in the world are you talking about?  As of "The Enemy Within",
>they hadn't yet put shuttlecraft on the Enterprise (at this point
>in the series).

Would YOU design a ship that had only one method of egress?  Even
so, they COULD have found some method of assisting the landing
party, don't you think?  (Even if they had to eject a life-pod
filled with planet survival gear!)  And pardon the mistake, I don't
make a habit of it to memorize the order in which the technology is
introduced.  (If they didn't have shuttlecraft, why did they have a
hangar?)

>I, personally, have never considered any of the Star Trek novels,
>however entertaining, to be "official".  The big problem with them
>is that they're written by fans & not anyone with any real contacts
>to Paramount.  They (the fan-authors) tend to write things into the
>books that they would have liked to have seen, which is how you get
>ridiculous stories where the Enterprise LANDS ON A PLANET, etc.
>Therefore, based on "Spock Must Die" only, I don't buy that
>transporter theory.

Nevertheless, the point raised in the novel IS valid...  When your
physical body is converted into energy, transferred to another point
and re-converted, how can you be sure that you're still you?  I
agree that the quality of some of the novels leaves much to be
desired, but you can't dismiss an argument merely because you don't
like its source.

(Who was the idiot who had the Enterprise landing on a planet?!?!?!)

Jeffrey S. Lee
LEE_JES@CTSTATEU
Central Connecticut State University

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 87 14:00:51 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: HMfJtP

The only book that is at all similar is Ishmael, by Barbara Hambly.
She doesn't go as much for the comedy, except that which you get by
putting Spock with Paladin, the Here Come the Brides cast, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 87 16:51 CDT
From: <DDC4058%TAMSTAR.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Darian)
Subject: Star Trek TNG

The captain has very few leadership qualities of the "captain of a
ship".  He isn't invulnerable as Cap. Kirk almost was.  He doesn't
seem to hold the undying respect of HIS crew. He doesn't even seem
to be superior to any of his officers. Number One seems to have more
leadership qualities than Picard.  Personally, I hope the captain is
done away with so we can have a real captain, someone who can come
up with better strategies than surrendering.  The running of this
ship seems to be more decenteralized than Star Trek.  Even the
layout of the bridge displays this.  Picard, Ryker, and Troi (why
doesn't she carry a crystal ball around or something?) all sit at
what looks like a bench side by side looking like they are waiting
for a bus.  On Star Trek it was obvious who was in charge.  Kirk was
the focus of your attention.  I will admit that practically there
may be no reason for the Captain to be set apart, but it fits the
image.

What of Data ?  It appears as though his character was to be a
computer with feelings, but now I think he is turning in to just a
person that doesn't forget and is physically superior.  I would have
much preferred Data acting very mechanical most of the time while
dropping occasional hints that there was really more underneath.
Data is boring.  They would have done better to try and copy Spock's
character.

Did anyone notice that the special affects seemed to get worse
toward the end of the opening movie ?  The star fields that were
shown in the background seemed to be made up of several layers with
each layer of stars moving at a diferent speed giving the apearance
that the slower stars were farthest away.  This affect was no longer
used at the end of the movie or in the folowing shows.

D.C.

------------------------------

Date: 05 Nov 87 23:56:42 EST
From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Kirk vs. Picard

It seems to me that in any comparison of Kirk and Picard, one must
consider results.

Sure, you can say "Ah, Kirk would *never* surrender!  He'd nuke 'em
with photon torpedoes and maybe even bluff 'em with a Corbomite
Maneuver!"

But what you might want to look at, is how many deaths both men have
been responsible for.  I find it hard to believe that after three
years, anyone would want to transfer or sign up with the old NCC -
1701.  Picard, on the other hand, has suffered no crew casualties
DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS that I can recall (up to the Ferrengi episode).

Certainly, the reason so many people died under Kirk is that the
writers *made* it that way.  But that's the exact reason that Picard
surrenders instead of fragging any and all takers -- he's a diplomat
and a gentleman.

Whereas, Kirk was an irresponsible planet (and bed) hopper.  Until
they gave him an Admiralty to get him out of everyone's hair.

Bruce Onder
wcutecb@iup.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Nov 87 09:50:00 GMT
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Battlestar Galactica V ST:TNG

Here in England we have yet to see ST:TNG so I can comment without
any influence from the facts ....

At least Battlestar Galactica had a consistent objective throughout
the series - they wanted to find Earth - and anything that was done
was to further that aim.  This prevents the writers from dragging in
too many wild story ideas.  From what I've read here about the
ST:TNG plots there appears to be no underlying theme to hold the
series together.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 02:02:11 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil P. Marsh)
Subject: Re: Chief engineer

da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist) writes:
> BARBANIS@cs.umass.edu writes (3-Nov-87):
>> I'm confused:  Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
>> Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?
> This is something that also bothered me about the episode.  I
> suppose we are to assume that the chief engineer and assistant
> from "The Naked Now" either filed for a transfer after realizing
> what nutcases the crew of this one was, OR that the new Galaxy
> Class enterprise is SO wowie wow huge that they can afford to
> carry multiple chief engineers on board and switch them every now
> and then...

If you LISTEN (Lord how many times I use this word when replying),
you'll notice that Riker introduced Argyle as "_One_ of our chief
engineers."  I can see the purpose of having more than one of these
on a ship.  Anyone out there in the navy know whether it is common
practice to have more than one officer in such a position?

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 87 13:29 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG

Jef Poskanzer writes:
>>The Ferrengi: How come creatures that look and act like the
>>hunchback of Notre-Dame have developed a spacefaring civilization?
>
>Bigotry.  Shove it.

FLAME ON
Do I detect a subtle tendency of tacking (rightly despised) labels,
thus safely ignoring the question?
FLAME OFF

I still maintain that the Ferrengi are not very bright, and could
not have come up with the technology by themselves.  Somebody (can't
remember who) posted a theory that the Ferrengi were *given* the
technology.  Interesting...

As for the good Captain: His maman (sp?) *does* have an accent!
Although I no longer believe that it would be better if the captain
had an accent too, facts do seem to support my theory :-}

George Barbanis

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #492
Date:  9 Nov 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #492
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #492
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 492

Today's Topics:

          Books - Boyett & Donaldson (3 msgs) & Killian &
                  Piper & Spider Robinson & Tubb (2 msgs) &
                  Wilson & Wolfe & Yarbro (3 msgs) &
                  Jewish SF (6 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 16:41:39 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: The Mirror of Her Dreams by Stephen Donaldson

> aeusesef@csun.UUCP (sean fagan)
> [...] when I got to the last 100 pages or so, and found out that
> it wasn't going to end, I got very upset.  It was worse than
> reading _The_Architect_of_Sleep_ (another good book, authored by
> S. R. Boyett; buy it).

Yes ineed.  Buy it.  Very good.  Ends in the middle of things.  If
Boyett doesn't continue it, I'll be very annoyed with him.  He has
taken a distressingly long time with no more published, however.
Sigh.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 17:15:51 GMT
From: chuq%plaid@sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Donaldson and Mirror of Her Dreams

>Donaldson is working on the second book.  Actually, I think it's
>only a duology(?), which means this is also the last book.  At the
>rate he writes we've probably got another year or two to wait.

This isn't true. Mirror of her Dreams just hit paperback. "A Man
Rides Through", the second part of the series, should hit bookstores
in hardback in the next three weeks or so -- and I believe it is
already available in England as a paperback (there was no hardcover
edition in the UK).

Part of the reason there is no delay is that Mordant's need is
really one amazingly long manuscript chopped in half and sold as two
books. It really isn't a series, but a two volume book.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 05:47:58 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!reed!bob@RUTGERS.EDU (Mythical Bob Ankeney)
Subject: Re: Donaldson and Mirror of Her Dreams

   The local fantasy/SF bookstore says the conclusion of this book
is due out sometime in early December.  At about the same time, the
paperback of the first should be released.  I certainly hope so,
though they said a while back it was due out in early November.  Oh
well.

Bob Ankeney
...!tektronix!reed!bob

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 03:24:03 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: The Mirror of Her Dreams by Stephen Donaldson

I'm rather surprised that anyone could like this book; it reads like
I would imagine a Harlequin romance would read.  All of the
characters are pathetic, as are the childish attempts at depicting
intrigue within the court.  The only reason the two protagonists
accomplish anything is via the authors favorite plot-saving device:
deus ex machina.  How many times in the book did the right person
just happen to be there to save the day?  All too many for me.  For
a one word description of the book, I would have to say that it's
simply inane.  This one gets a -4 on the -4 to +4 scale (almost as
bad as McCaffrey's _Dinosaur_Planet_).

I enjoyed the Covenant books once I stopped paying attention to
Convenant himself - the scenery, especialy, was marvelous.  But,
after reading this trash, I'll won't buy another Donaldson book for
a long long time, if ever.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 18:47:47 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Chrono Plane Wars

Scott Turner (srt@cs.ucla.edu) writes:
>Whoops.  Right you are.  Empire of Time is copyright 1978, while
>The Fall of The Republic is 1987.  Odd that they were written in
>that order, since reading them out of order would leave Empire of
>Time sadly under-motivated.

That's interesting, I find myself with just the opposite view.  EoT
seems to be complete and self-contained, with no loose ends.  The
prequel, on the other hand, seems to be a feeble attempt to squeeze
a whole novel out of a period that was adequately outlined in EoT.

A real problem I have with FotR: in EoT, Wigner was the big
Generalissimo of the empire, with Pierce one of many lackeys.  Yet
in FotR, we're told that Wigner and Pierce were the first two
members of the network that founded the empire.  Perhaps I'm being
too picky.  But I sometimes think that "complete universe" series
should be banned: few writers can make it work.

Perhaps the writers who *do* make it work only prove my point.  Poul
Anderson does it very well, but he's extremely compulsive about
detail.  Heinlein is the most famous writer of this sort, but his
writing style lets you overlook little inconsistencies.  And of
course there's Niven: nobody expects consistency from a writer who
can't remember which way the earth spins.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  6 Nov 87 23:47 EST
From: <SEGAL%NYUACF.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: A story request answered.

A while ago, (Oct 29) James Chung asked for the title of a story
concerning a guy with a wrench who is really the spawn of some alien
race, getting back into space.

I'm really annoyed, because I can't remember the exact title, but
the story is by H. Beam Piper and is in (I am fairly sure) the
collection _THE_WORLDS_ _OF_H._BEAM_PIPER_ (ed. or intro or
something by Terry Carr) Unfortunately, the book is at home, not
here at school, so I can't give you any more detail than that, but I
would stop to wonder, why is there not more talk about Piper (my
personal favourite author) in the digest?

Richard Segal
New York University
Segal@NYUACF7 (Bitnet)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 16:22:23 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Other Authors (mick of time)

Slight spoilers for "The Mick of Time" if you care.

stevev@uoregon.UUCP (Steve VanDevender) writes:
> As for the last Callahan's Bar story, "The Mick of Time", if it is
> a big "F**k you" to the readers, I wish more authors would say
> "F**k you" to their readers. [...] At least we don't have to live
> with an eternity of Callahan's stories which steadily get more
> tiresome.

I think you misunderstand.  The "F*ck you" was not that the bar was
destroyed, but that he retroactively kicked the fundamental premises
that made the stories interesting and charming out from under us.
We find that the only way Jake can *really* find release from his
guilt is to not have made his mistake at all, while the charm of the
stories is that he found a way to live with it.  His method of
"living with it" is revealed in the last story to be a sham... he
was really not coping at all, and needed that repulsive reassurance
to release him.  Further, one of the major points was that you don't
have to have superpowers, or mental telepathy, or high technology to
find peace.  All you need is the fact that shared pain is lessened,
and shared pleasure is increased.  Then we find out that Calahan is
a time-traveling superman with a slew of helpers on a "mission from
God" as Elwood Blues might say.  Feh.

Against the contrast of the previous Calahan stories, I found "The
Mick of Time" to be one of the most repulsive slaps in the face to
truth, dignity, and the human way I have ever read.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 21:23:03 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: NEED TO COMPLETE SERIES

>       Anyway, I have quite a bit of the series, but I am missing
>some key books. If anyone can mail me a list of all the books so
>far in the series, and where I can order them from I would
>sincerely appreciate it.

There is only one key book in the Dumarest series and that's KALIN.
In this book, Dumarest finds the symbiont secret that gets the
Cyclan after him for the rest of the series. While there is
indication that Dumarest is getting closer to finding Earth, it is
vague. There is some minor development in the Dumarest/Cyclan
struggle but on the whole all the books in the series are
interchangeable and can be read almost in any order.  The early
books are Ace Doubles and are out of print. They can be found for
outrageous prices in the huxsters' room at SF cons that cater to the
more traditional literary SF fans.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 18:00:09 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: NEED TO COMPLETE SERIES



>There is only one key book in the Dumarest series and that's KALIN.

After double checking my collection, I find I was wrong. There are
two key books in the series. The last one, THE TEMPLE OF TRUTH, ends
with Dumarest finding the coordinates of Earth. It's been 2 years
since that book came out and DAW was publishing 2 Dumarest books a
year at the height of the series. I don't know if this is the end of
the series or if Tubb just hasn't found a proper way to end the
series.

So, if you read KALIN and THE TEMPLE OF TRUTH, you've read the
entire series to date. All the other books are just fillers.

Danny Low

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 06:26:30 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Colin Wilson (was re: LIFEFORCE)

From:   mtgzz!leeper    (Mark Leeper)
> SPACE VAMPIRES was the last of three science fiction novels by
> Colin Wilson that I have read (I think he just recently wrote a
> fourth.)

Yes, it's titled THE TOWER, the first of an n-ology called SPIDER
WORLD, taking place in the far future when spiders have evolved into
the dominant species on Earth. So far, it's only been published (in
trade paper and hardcover) in Britain. I picked up a copy in Canada
this past summer, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

Wilson has also written a couple of supernatural suspense novels.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 87 00:32:08 GMT
From: evansr@yale-zoo-suned..arpa (Ron Warren Evans)
Subject: Book of the New Sun QUESTIONS

A couple of years ago I read on article on this group re: Gene
Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. The author had carefully scrutinised
the tetralogy and had laid bare a number of Wolfe's literary games
for our edification and enjoyment. He asked, for example, if we
could trace Severian's family tree, could determine the connection
between the coin Severian hides and the one Dr. Talos gives him at
the end of THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, could discover Wolfe's many
allusions to Borges.

I am wondering if anyone has this article and can send it to me, or,
barring that, whether anyone can remember those questions or, even
better, come up with a few of their own. Answers are cool too! B^)
Hypotheses are welcomed as well, especially those about the
questions I mentioned above.

I look forward to hearing from y'all, and hope this starts a new
dialogue.  THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is rich, complex, beautiful, and
puzzling, and it deserves to be discussed.

Ron Warren Evans
evansr@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU.UUCP
evaronw@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 87 14:11:48 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Yarbro

I have only read False Dawn, and it was OK, but not impressive. But
the references to "vampire books" aroused my interest. Are they
anything in the vein (ugh!) of Anne Rice ? In that case I will not
rest until they are in my possession.

Kai Quale

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 00:18:11 GMT
From: gail@calmasd.ge.com (Gail Hanrahan)
Subject: Re: Yarbro

Two other books by Yarbro:

   The Time of the Fourth Horseman (very grim reading)
   Ariosto

Gail Hanrahan
sdcsvax!calmasd!gail
gail@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 20:02:30 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Yarbro

>But the references to "vampire books" aroused my interest. Are they
>anything in the vein (ugh!) of Anne Rice ? In that case I will not
>rest until they are in my possession.

No, they are not like Anne Rice. They are much superior (in my
eyes). Quinn's works are much closer to Suzy McKee Charnas than
Rice.

Chuq  Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 87 15:07:41 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: KROVETZ%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Jewish SF

Bob's letter reminds me of something I've been wondering about for a
long time. In most science fiction, there is no religion.
Evidentally, every one has come to their "senses" in the mean time.
In all the remaining books I've seen, everybody is Christian. Are
there any good Jewish SF stories?

Thanks,
Danny

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 14:50:07 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ethan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

From: loeb@bourbaki.mit.edu
> In all the remaining books I've seen, everybody is Christian. Are
> there any good Jewish SF stories?

I don't think Harlan Ellison is Jewish, but he wrote a very funny
story about a Jew trying to get together a minyan for a funeral
service before abandoning a doomed planet.  The difficulty is
compounded by the fact that most of the population has already left,
and one of the remaining Jews has folded up his tentacles and died.
(As you might guess, this particular community is descended from
converts.)  The ending has a nice halachic twist. I'm afraid I can't
remember the title of the collection or the story.

Ethan Vishniac

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 16:42:46 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ethan@RUTGERS.EDU (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

ethan@ut-ngp.UUCP (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) writes:
> I don't think Harlan Ellison is Jewish, but he wrote a very funny
> story

I have just been informed, by a knowledgeable source, that I have
screwed up.  Harlan Ellison is Jewish.  I was wrong.  I humbly beg
your forgiveness.  Please don't send me flames.  I'm a very
sensitive person.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 21:17:38 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.psu.edu (Scott E. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

From: loeb@bourbaki.mit.edu
> Are there any good Jewish SF stories?

I once read an anthology edited by Robert Silverberg called (I
think) "Wandering Stars".  It has a number of good stories by Isaac
Asimov, Harlan Ellison, etc.  I read this more than 10 years ago, by
the way.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 22:06:30 GMT
From: c60a-2ae@web1c.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

I belive the story is titled _Looking_for_Kaddak_ and I do not
recall which of his collections it was in.  By the way, Ellison was
a Jew at some time in his life.  I first _heard_ the story over KPFK
when he was hosting Hour 25, their sf show.  Later, I came across it
in print and began to read it, and discovered, sure enought that the
text followed the speech and proceeded to skim Kaddak and go on to
the next story.

John Kawakami
c60a-2ae@weaver.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 05:49:14 GMT
From: erc@tybalt.caltech.edu (Eric R. Christian)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

There are numerous SF tales which contain "The Wandering Jew",
usually this person is an immortal who's still around.  Nathan
Brazil, from Jack Chalker's Well World series is a good example of
this.  This series has Judaism being something of a universal
religion.  In every cycle of the universe, there is a religion very
similar to Judaism (which is similarly discriminated against).

Eric R. Christian
erc@tybalt.caltech.edu.uucp

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #493
Date:  9 Nov 87 1041-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #493
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 87 1041-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #493
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 493

Today's Topics:

         Films - The Lathe of Heaven & Lifeforce (2 msgs) &
                 Nightflyers & The Hidden & Heavy Metal (3 msgs) &
                 Why are SF Films Rubbish?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 01:10:05 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!esosun!artecon!macbeth@RUTGERS.EDU (Beckwith)
Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven

From: Fegman%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>> I live in Washington, D.C. and years ago our local PBS station
>> showed the movie *The Lathe of Heaven*. Years later, I finally
>> read the book of the same name by Ursula (spelling?) LeGuin.  Now
>> I am looking for the movie again...  Aside from waiting several
>> more years for PBS to run it again, does anyone know where I can
>> get hold of the film? Is it on video? Who made it? etc. etc.
>
>The movie was, in fact, made by the Dallas P.B.S. affiliate.  It
>was even shot in Dallas.

If that's the same _Lathe_ that I saw, parts of it were shot in
Portland, OR (Ms. LeGuin's stomping grounds). That futuristic
building the protagonist wanders around is the Portland General
Electric edifice, in whose restaurant I used to toil. That's one
reason the film looks grey so often: tough to get many sunny days
when you shoot in Puddle City.

David Macy-Beckwith
Artecon, Inc.
2431 Impala Drive
Carlsbad CA 92008
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!hp-sdd!artecon!macbeth

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 18:33:10 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!orchid!jagardner@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Lifeforce

>>The next really novel invasion idea came from LIFEFORCE.
>>Lifeforce is that force that is the difference between living
>>matter and the same matter but dead.
>
>One might also compare and contrast this storyline with Stoker's
>Dracula.  There are quite a few similarities between the two.

Lifeforce was based on "The Space Vampires" by Colin Wilson, and
Wilson's book is in some sense a rebuttal to Dracula.  For example,
the hero of the book visits an institution where a nobleman studies
"lifeforce" with the help of three female assistants.  (Of course,
Dracula lived in his castle with three female vampires.)

In Dracula, the three females approach the hero in the night, in as
lascivious a manner as the Victorians would allow, and he barely
escapes death.  The scene seems to imply that sexuality may be
seductive, but it is evil.  In The Space Vampires, the women also
approach the hero in the night, and they all benefit from the
experience.  The author makes it clear that he thinks sex is an
*exchange* of energies (lifeforce) and it increases one's health.

There are other incidents in The Space Vampires which seem to be
direct comments on Dracula.  My memories are hazy, but I believe
there is a certain amount of action in a mental institute where the
effects of "defective lifeforce" are discussed.

******SPOILER FOR THE SPACE VAMPIRES BELOW******

I was sorry that the movie didn't preserve the ending of the book,
although I understand the reasons.  The book's ending is very
lowkey.  In essence, the aliens are found to be degenerated members
of a highly evolved species (the degeneration occurred because of an
accident in their starship).  "Good guy" representatives of this
species eventually catch up with the degenerates and remind them of
what they once were.  What happens next is very fast and would be
close to impossible to portray in any solid cinematic way.  Still,
I'm sorry they didn't try.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 3 Nov 87 18:41:51 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: LifeForce

It looks like I stirred up a hornet's nest by saying that I liked
both PRINCE OF DARKNESS and LIFEFORCE for many of the same reasons.
I have to say that my estimation that few people would like just one
and not the other was accurate.  By now I have discussed the films
with quite a few people an only one person claims to have liked just
one.

Let me respond to some of the comments on LIFEFORCE most of which
came from Brad Templeton.

It was suggested that what I was really liking was the book and not
the film.  I think they are different and each has ideas that the
other could use.  SPACE VAMPIRES was the last of three science
fiction novels by Colin Wilson that I have read (I think he just
recently wrote a fourth.)  It is not as good as the first two, but
does have some reasonable ideas, particularly about the nature of
vampirism that cast more light on what is happening in the film.
However, there are only three vampires in the book.  The invasion is
by no means Apocalyptic the way it is in the film.  The idea of the
collector ship sucking up the loose lifeforce adds a lot to the idea
content of the film that is missing in the book.  I reread the book
just after seeing the film and realized that, in fact, the filmmaker
had a lot of creative ideas of his own.  Rereading the book it was
something of a letdown.

It is claimed that I am a capable critic but a bad reviewer.  I am
not sure what was meant by that, but I would say I have considered
it the other way around.  A reviewer tells you what he thought of a
film, a critic tells you whether or not it was a good film.  I can
tell you whether I liked a film or not, but those judgements should
always be suspect.  I just make subjective guesses.

I have known some people who when you talk to them seem to be just a
little out of phase with the world.  Perhaps they even seem a little
stoned.  You can talk to them and they respond to what you are
saying but you always have the disconcerting feeling that you are
not making contact.  (Who knows, perhaps there is some of that in
me, too.)  In any case, while I know such people (and will refrain
from naming names) you rarely see that personality on the screen.
Steve Railsback plays a role that way.  If you have seen him in THE
STUNT MAN, you are interested in the character but you don't quite
know what is going on in his mind.  He does the same sort of acting
in LIFEFORCE, and he plays that sort of character.  It cuts against
his empathy value, he's uncharismatic, but he does a good portrayal
of that sort of person.  Maybe he really is that way, but he was a
good casting choice because the character he is playing is
controlled by forces we are not meant to understand.  Now it doesn't
take a Robert Duvall or a Laurence Olivier to play one of these
people, but I think Railsback did a good job of playing a character
just a little out of phase with things.  Firth is a little wooden,
but not unrealistically so, considering his profession.  All in all,
I liked the acting.

There is a complaint that the film tries to do too much.  The number
of things going on is actually fairly refreshing.  A bad film tries
to do the same thing the whole way through.  You know the sort of
thing, ten nearly identical sequences of a man in a ski mask chasing
and hacking up teenagers.  LIFEFORCE keeps taking turns to keep the
viewer guessing.  There are five or six vastly different sequences
making up the main film.  This is disorienting and demands more from
an audience, but it is not at all unrealistic considering the
subject matter.  Someone says that that this really is just a
mystery and by doing so misses the point.  One segment is mystery,
but there are other segments that are not very mystery-like at all.
It is in the nature of this kind of invasion that you have to fight
it in different ways as the invasion unfolds.

I don't expect to convince anyone who hated the LIFEFORCE that this
is actually a great science fiction film.  But I can say why I think
that some of the faults people are finding with the film are to me
not faults at all and that the film still strikes me as being pretty
good.  And I claim the film gave me more that was unpredictable and
more interesting ideas to chew on than ALIEN and ALIENS put
together.  I rate LIFEFORCE, by this and by the pleasure it gave me,
fairly high.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 15:11:15 GMT
From: kimi@ablnc.att.com (Kimiye)
Subject: NIGHTFLYERS review

I read the George R.R. Martin novella last year and was looking
forward to the movie.  He seemed to have taken the best ideas from
ALIEN and 2001 and combined them with a drawing room murder
mystery--not the most original science fiction but great drama.

Unfortunately, I couldn't even recognize his novella in NIGHTFLYERS.
Instead of interesting and different female characters, we got three
women who looked so much alike I couldn't figure out who was
supposed to be whom (all blond, beautiful cheerleader types).  The
male characters went to the other extreme, with emphasis on physical
differences (giant black chef, diminutive blond wimp) rather than
character.

The special effects seemed decently done (I admit I wasn't
concentrating) but the logic of what occurred was absent.  I was too
appalled at people without spacesuits conversing in a spaceship with
the hull breached above them to notice whether the underpinnings
were showing.

But it was the ambience of the movie that proved to be the most
crushingly boring part.  Maybe we could call it spaghetti space
opera.  It's that dark, monotonous pacing that I associate with
poorly dubbed Italian s-f or horror movies (the kind Commander USA
features).  I began wishing for major faux pas (sp? false steps) so
I could find _something_ to enjoy in this picture.  Well, there was
one howler when a couple of women were trying to break into the
ship's computer, getting garbled machine language, and one of them
suggested, "Look for a menu!"

This is the kind of film that gives science fiction a bad name.  I
rate it 2.5 on a scale of 10.  Don't even rent the video (probably
due next month).

Kimiye
{ihnp4, ulysses, houxm, clyde, cpsc6a, mtune, moss}!ablnc!kimi

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 87 22:06:02 PST
From: PUGH@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: The Hidden

What we have here is a face sucking, body snatching space slug that
likes nothing better than stealing a Ferrari and killing some
innocent people.  He leads our hero on a wild week long spree of
chases and shoot-'em-ups on this planet before the final
confrontation.  The action is plentiful, the story is familiar, and
the movie doesn't try to be anything but an action SF flick.  It
succeeds.

The worse part is that the bad guy is ugly, but the good guy, whom
we are to assume is of the same race, is merely a golden special
effect.  It suffers from the Hollywood ideal that nothing ugly can
be good.  It made sense to me that if the bad guy was un ugly space
slug, then the good guy should be a space slug too, although he
might be a cuter space slug (how the hell do you make a cute slug?
FX can only do so much).

We are talking 15 walking bullet ridden corpses, the biggest ugliest
hard rocking slime slug in the universe, gratuitous nipple pinching,
machine gun fu, a death screw in an Impala, dog possession, killer
Ferrari chases, disbeliving cops, and a flamebroiled congressman.
Acadamy Award nominations to the slug for saying, "I want the car,"
"I want the girl," and "I want to be President." and to the Galactic
Fed for getting drunk on a third of a Killian's Red Ale and eating
an Alka Seltzer, without water.

Joe Bob says three stars, check it out!

------------------------------

Date: WED NOV 04, 1987 16.57.22 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Heavy Metal (The Movie)

   Ok, this is shooting quite a ways back, but does anyone out there
remember the cartoon movie - "Heavy Metal?"  If so, this question is
for you.

   In the movie, one of the songs was "Psychic Wars."  I forget the
musical group that performed it but that has little relevance to my
question.  I once saw an article in one of the zine's concerning
this song.  Apparently it had been written about Elric, the
character which MM based alot of his books.  Does anyone know if
there is truth to this and if there are many other songs out there
about sf characters???

Mitch

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 18:10:57 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Heavy Metal (The Movie)

From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>   Ok, this is shooting quite a ways back, but does anyone out
>there remember the cartoon movie - "Heavy Metal?"  If so, this
>question is for you.
>
>   In the movie, one of the songs was "Psychic Wars."  I forget the
>musical group that performed it but that has little relevance to my
>question.  I once saw an article in one of the zine's concerning
>this song.  Apparently it had been written about Elric, the
>character which MM based alot of his books.  Does anyone know if
>there is truth to this and if there are many other songs out there
>about sf characters???

Actually the song title is something like "Veteran of the Psychic
Wars" and is by Blue Oyster Cult. In addition to being on the Heavy
Metal Soundtrack you will also find this song on the BOC album "Fire
of Unknown Origin." FoUO also contains several other songs which I
think they may have done for the Heavy Metal Movie (Heavy Metal:
Black and Silver (good title music) and Vengeance (the Pact) (which
is obviously about Taarna). It also has some SF songs such as The
Last Survivor.

There are also plenty of other songs out there about SF characters.
BOC has done songs about Godzilla and Nosferatu, Rush has done some
songs related to Tolkein's stories, and there are many others which
could be found if you'd look for them.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 14:24:14 GMT
From: mtune!houxa!acd@RUTGERS.EDU (A.DURSTON)
Subject: Re: Heavy Metal (The Movie)

From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>    Ok, this is shooting quite a ways back, but does anyone out
> there remember the cartoon movie - "Heavy Metal?"  If so, this
> question is for you.
>    In the movie, one of the songs was "Psychic Wars."  I forget
> the musical group that performed it but that has little relevance
> to my question.  I once saw an article in one of the zine's
> concerning this song.  Apparently it had been written about Elric,
> the character which MM based alot of his books.  Does anyone know
> if there is truth to this and if there are many other songs out
> there about sf characters???

Hi,

The song is 'Veteran of the Psychic Wars' by Blue Oyster Cult.
Although that song is not, in itself, about Elric, they have
written several songs in cooperation with Michael Moorcock:
'Veteran' on FIRE OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN, 'Black Blade' [ this one
is about Elric and Stormbringer ] on MONSTERS and 'The Great Sun
Jester' on MIRRORS. BOC also wrote a song called 'Shadow Warrior'
[?] with Eric Von Lustbader on CLUB NINJA, their last album. That
song is most likely about Lustbader's Ninja books.

Hope this helps,

Andrew C. Durston
...ihnp4!houxa!acd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 87 15:25:27 GMT
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

What happens in producers' heads when they create films based on SF
story lines?  Why do they choose the stories they do? Why do they
feel that they can screw up the plots? What are the audiences that
they are attempting to reach?  These and may other questions run
through my head while watching most SF films.  Does anybody know the
answers?

Geoff Lane

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #494
Date:  9 Nov 87 1058-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #494
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Nov 87 1058-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #494
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 9 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 494

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Gibson (4 msgs) & Rucker

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 07:01:13 GMT
From: smeyer@topaz.rutgers.edu (Seth Meyer)
Subject: Neuromancer

   Okay, I have finished reading Neuromancer, by William Gibson.
This book got Book of the year, and it won The Hugo, Nebula, and
Philip K. Dick awards.

   This is all very nice, but I have one small problem... I do not
know what was going on!  I have bits and pieces of the story but I
really don't know what I just read!  I was lost from the start!!

   Could someone spare some time to either post the story behind
this confusing book, or e-mail the story to me...in simple terms!
Also, could you point out what is cyberpunk in this book?

   This was one of the hardest books I have read!

   Thank you...

Seth Meyer

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 23:19:35 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: _Neuromacer_ & _Count Zero_, by William Gibson

           Neuromancer and Count Zero, by William Gibson
                           A Book Review
                           by Eiji Hirai

Cyberspace.  Jacking-in.  Black Ice.  These and other words are
used as if they were part of the everyday language of the people.
However, the people are living very different lives, not so far
into the extrapolative future.  This is the world of Cyberpunk.

What is Cyberpunk?

Readers and writers alike disagree as to what Cyberpunk really is.
However, there seems to be a general vague consensus among most
people that it deals with an extrapolation into the near future,
where computer-human interfacing technology is in widespread use.
People with chips implanted in their bodies to enhance their
abilities are not unusual.  There is also a vague agreement among
readers that writers in the genre take special care in exploring the
social dynamics of their new worlds.  So exploration of
computer-human interface technology and social dynamics may be said
to comprise a loose definition of Cyberpunk.

Now, people are bound to quibble with this definition, as with all
other attempts at defining this genre.  Well, the next best thing to
listening to what other people say is to actually read some of the
major authors in the genre.

William Gibson is considered a very major author in the field and
his two novels are considered landmark works of Cyberpunk.  His
first novel, Neuromancer, was awarded most of the science fiction
awards you can name off the top of your head.

So what is Neuromancer and Count Zero About?

The story of both _Neuromancer and _Count Zero_ take place in the
same world, and the events of _Count Zero_ take place only seven
years after the events of _Neuromancer_.  In _Neuromancer_ the story
centers around the exploits of a interface cowboy, a person who
makes a living by jacking-in to interface computers and entering the
world of cyberspace.  Cyberspace is the electronic network which
links up almost every computerized site in the world.  Being able to
maneuver in cyberspace and doing it well is what makes a cowboy.  A
3-D world of of a videogame is the closest way I can come to
describing what cyberspace looks like.

Naturally, companies don't like having their valuable data free to
be searched by cowboys.  The solution is a type of elaborate
security block called Black Ice.  Ice is a term coined by Tom Maddox
(a friend of Gibson), for Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics.
Coming into contact with one may sending you reeling back with a
fatal headache.  Cowboys are hired to so that they can overcome
these blocks and steal or sabotage information for the companies
that hire them.  Virus programs (a term originating back to John
Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_) are the tools of the trade: they slowly
make a path through an ice without the ice knowing about it.
High-tech stealth and thievery is the name of the game.  _Count
Zero_ centers around three different people but the premises and the
world are the same.

The two books explore this world very well.  There are numerous
fascinating ideas about how this world is constructed.  Corporations
are the most powerful organizations, stealing and sabotage is
business as usual, street smarts are basic survival skills, the
Turing police make sure that no AI becomes too intelligent, and
jacking-in is the equivalent of hacking in today's world.

In addition to constructing this world and presenting it well,
Gibson gives us a view of what a cowoboy's everyday life is like,
what he feels, what he wants and what he lives for.  The cowboy and
the other characters in the book are unique individuals.  You can
believe in them and see why they feel the way they do, though you
may not sympathize with them.  There are no heroes and no villains,
but that's the real world.

If you've seen Ridley Scott's movie called _Blade Runner_, you might
have an idea of how the world is explored.  There are many ideas
about the world that are begging to be looked at in detail.  Fully
fleshed people live in the harsh reality of life.  For a while, you
live in that world.  It's not a gung-ho adventure story with lots of
action and no depth.  The depth of this world is thick as black ice.

However, the action and plot are dismally absent in his books.  The
story plods along without focus and no definite climax in sight.
The book ends by resolving some of the conflicts in the story as if
in afterthought.  The ending of _Count Zero_ is especially obscure.
It is hard to understand how the ending came about unless you read
each sentence bery bery carefully and closely.  These books are not
light reading.  It is good that Gibson's sentences are loaded, and
that each sentence is essential and not superfluous.  However,
sentences and nice imagery does not make a good story.  If story
telling is the aim of a book, then Gibson fails in that area.

Moreover, the story in _Count Zero_ revolves around three different
characters who are totally unrelated to each other.  The book then
jumps back and forth between the stories of these characters without
much coherent link between them.  A single tenuous link becomes
apparent only in the latter parts of the book, and obscure way at
that.  The climax is almost as if it were hastily constructed to tie
up the three different stories together so the book could come to an
end.  Furthermore, the climax is achieved without the direct
involvement of the characters.

Summary

Gibson may have been attempting to show how individual lives in the
world are insignificant and none can stop the flow of events.
However, this is no excuse to let the plot wander without focus and
to append an ending not worth striving for.  The ending could have
been cut out of the book, and the point of individual lives being
insignificant would have made better.

Despite these criticism of the plot, the book was worth reading for
the world that was explored.  The characters were real too.  If only
Gibson had a tigter grip on the plot, the book would have been
exhilarating.  Frank Herbert's _Dune_ was a masterpiece for both the
presentation of the world and a tight, exciting plot.  Gibson
achieves only half of this.

I've bought Gibson's short story collection called _Burning Chrome_,
and it's in my priority reading list (if I have time, hah!).
Perhaps his short stories are better than his novels.  I'll try my
best to read them without preconceptions I might have from reading
his novels.

This is just one person's opinion and you may disagree.  Well,
that's what life is like isn't it?

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP:   {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet:bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 87 07:32:40 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: _Neuromacer_ & _Count Zero_, by William Gibson

hirai@swatsun.UUCP (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>However, the action and plot are dismally absent in his books.  The
>story plods along without focus and no definite climax in sight.
>The book ends by resolving some of the conflicts in the story as if
>in afterthought.  The ending of _Count Zero_ is especially obscure.
>It is hard to understand how the ending came about unless you read
>each sentence bery bery carefully and closely.  These books are not
>light reading.  It is good that Gibson's sentences are loaded, and
>that each sentence is essential and not superfluous.  However,
>sentences and nice imagery does not make a good story.  If story
>telling is the aim of a book, then Gibson fails in that area.

Nope. The story does not "plod along" but rips frenziedly past,
moving too swiftly for either the reader or the characters to fully
follow. The plot of Neuromancer is complex and subtle. It is not
spelled out for you. This is a *feature*. This is *good*. Thank you,
William Gibson, for not insulting my intelligence. Plus there is
lots of action.
  Count Zero is not as good a book as Neuromancer. Oh well.
  The books are meant to be confusing -- things are happening too
fast for you to know what is going on. This is the case for the
characters, and Gibson does a very good job at giving this feel also
to the reader. The reader is brought *into* the story -- he is not
omniscient.
  Neuromancer is *different* from the 10000 other SF novels you have
read. It dared to break new ground. It dared to be REVOLUTIONARY.
Therefore, you should not expect a book that reads like something
Piers Anthony wrote (and he DOES insult the reader's intelligence --
over and over and over again), nor like any of the million-odd
pieces of trash that DAW publishes.
  Neuromancer has thankfully prevented SF from stagnating. It has
also kept SF from poking along in the "hard" boring mode of writers
like Asimov. And it has started the cyberpunk revolution. Good story
telling is the name of the game here.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 87 07:21:36 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: _Neuromancer_ & _Count Zero_, by William Gibson

hirai@swatsun.UUCP (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>[an unflattering review of Gibson & Cyberpunk]

(If this review was meant to be satirical, I apologize for taking it
seriously.  If it was serious, then read on ...)

To put it mildly, isn't it a little late for this review to be
meaningful?  Not to mention that you seem to have read the books
without understanding anything that happened, yet still see fit to
write a "review" on the them.

>However, the action and plot are dismally absent in his books.

Hmm.  What's wrong, weren't there enough killings and chase scenes
for you?  From page one it's like playing "Space Harrier" with a
nose full of coke and a head full of acid - if you can't stand the
ride, get off the pony.  In the 1st chapters of Neuromancer, Case
almost gets killed and has his wildest dream fulfilled (I agree, no
action).  And, for plot we have the intricate "machinations" of
Wintermute, the twisted paths of Tesier-Ashpool, and the small
intrigues of Case and Molly as they try to uncover Wintermute's
plots as they work advance them.  Sounds like Neuromancer so lacks
in plot that I won't even bother describing Count Zero.

>The story plods along without focus and no definite climax in
>sight.

I'd say the resolution of Wintermute's plot is very climatic.
Certainly there is enough action at the end to shout "CLIMAX" even
unto the ears of the deaf.  (The same goes for Count Zero -
especially with the fantastic implications within the last pages of
the book).

>The book ends by resolving some of the conflicts in the story as if
>in afterthought.

This just shows that all of the wonderful symbolism and subtle
foreshadowing was wasted on you.  Read it again a few times (I've
read it 3 times, and I'm still sure that there's stuff I'm missing),
and if you still can't see how the ending ties in, go back to
reading Piers Anthony, where the ending is spelled out in block
capitals on the back cover - if you can't appreciate fine wine, go
back to drinking cheap beer.

>The ending of _Count Zero_ is especially obscure.  It is hard to
>understand how the ending came about unless you read each sentence
>bery bery carefully and closely.

Which "ending" are you talking about?  There are at least three of
them.

>These books are not light reading.  It is good that Gibson's
>sentences are loaded, and that each sentence is essential and not
>superfluous.  However, sentences and nice imagery does not make a
>good story.  If story telling is the aim of a book, then Gibson
>fails in that area.

Bullshit.  A few paragraphs ago you said that Gibson puts you inside
the very lives of the fully "flesh and blood" characters.  Now you
say he can't tell a story.  These are one and the same.  Hypocrite.

>Moreover, the story in _Count Zero_ revolves around three different
>characters who are totally unrelated to each other.

Tell me how the three sides of a triangle are unrelated.

>The book then jumps back and forth between the stories of these
>characters without much coherent link between them.  A single
>tenuous link becomes apparent only in the latter parts of the book,
>and obscure way at that.  The climax is almost as if it were
>hastily constructed to tie up the three different stories together
>so the book could come to an end.  Furthermore, the climax is
>achieved without the direct involvement of the characters.

Sheez.  Didn't you know that the direction of the protagonist isn't
always the direction of the novel?  The characters were set in such
a way as to "backlight" the theme.  In real literature, the theme is
rarely announced on the back cover, it is shown in silhouette by the
symbols and actions of the characters.

>Gibson may have been attempting to show how individual lives in thne
>world are insignificant and none can stop the flow of events.

Missed it again, didn't you?  There're so many themes and sub-themes
that I'm sure I missed over half of them.  How about the major theme
that perfection (or just plain success) must be attained through
struggle, or that godhood is founded on a duality -
compassion/empathy & omniscience.

Just to pick one the minor commentaries, how about Hideo, the ninja
assassin.  He is the ultimate in human-as-machine - kills perfectly
on command even when blind, yet Gibson's calls this "Hideo".
Obviously, man-as-machine is an undesirable direction Gibson sees
some people taking.  Just as obviously, machine-as-god (subtly
different from god-as-machine) is a desirable, or perhaps inevitable
end, as shown in Wintermute's transformation.

As for Count Zero, the main theme is the fragmentation of the human
race.  There is Virek, his bloated size the symbol of the
all-encompassing godlike entity that Wintermute became, and his
death the symbol of Wintermute's "calving" into the loa, while his
humanness makes this a commentary on mankind.  The box-maker is a
lament to the clear solitary vision that is wasted in the
greed-infested rain forest jungle that human culture has become.  To
say that the themes in either of these books is vague or pointless
is simply wrong.  Gibson's novels are incredibly rich in theme,
symbolism, and style.  This is why it won so many awards.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 13:42:00 EST
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: SOFTWARE BY RUDY RUCKER

For what it's worth, SOFTWARE by RUDY RUCKER did win the first
Philip K. Dick Award.  Rudy is working on a sequel which may be out
soon called WETWARE.  To tell the truth, while on the whole I did
enjoy SOFTWARE, it was not completely my cup of tea.  There were
some good amusing parts, but some of the character traits turned me
off.  For those of you who are at Swarthmore or graduated from you,
you should know that Rudy was a Swarthmore graduate of the 60's.  He
has a book out somewhere called THE SECRET OF LIFE which is very
much about Swarthmore.  He does have some interesting short stories
in his book THE 57TH FRANZ KAFKA which is probably worth looking
for.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@UMCINCOM
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #495
Date: 10 Nov 87 0820-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #495
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Nov 87 0820-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #495
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Nov 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 495

Today's Topics:

                Television - Max Headroom (3 msgs) &
                             Beauty and the Beast (3 msgs) &
                             Battlestar Galactica (3 msgs) &
                             Captain Power (3 msgs) &
                             Thunderbirds (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 87 09:38:59 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: MAX HEADROOM

From:   otten@cincom.umd.edu    (Neil Ottenstein)
> Besides being in a dreadful timeslot it was against heavy, known
> to get good ratings shows.

Actually, ABC put it in that timeslot because the audiences for
DALLAS and MIAMI VICE were declining, and they were hoping to catch
some of that audience.

> I presume that the little Max bit at the end of the show was added
> on after they knew about the cancellation. Anybody have anything
> definite on that?

Nothing definite, but it seemed obvious to me that that was the
case. After all, they didn't have any previews for the next episode
to show, right?

> Also, does anyone know how many more episodes have been filmed? I
> had thought that ABC had contracted to have at least 13 episodes
> for this season, but they all must not have been filmed. Anyone
> have any info on what will be done with those episodes? I presume
> they will show up at some time or another at next to no notice.

From what I've heard second or third hand, there were only three
more episodes actually completed. They were right in the middle of
filming another when they got the cancellation notice and shut down.
That accounts for nine out of the thirteen. I presume that the other
four exist in script form.

Currently, ABC has no plans on airing those last three completed
episodes, but then CBS didn't really plan on airing the last few
TWILIGHT ZONE's that were finished before that show was cancelled,
and they ended up doing so during the summer. So, if we pray real
hard each night before we go to bed, maybe ABC will eventually show
those last three MAX's. Or maybe they'll be shown if the show gets
syndicated.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 13:29:24 GMT
From: uiucdcs!sq!utcsri!tom@RUTGERS.EDU (Tom Nadas)
Subject: Re: MAX HEADROOM

Spoilers follow.  Upload the episodes, eh?  Well, I don't know about
that, but the first of the final three Max Headrooms, as seen in
Toronto, had to do with a someone -- apparently Blank Reg -- zapping
(i.e., hacking through security to fiddle with) Network 23's
ratings, putting the Zik Zak account in jeopardy.  Lots of good
stuff with Blank Reg, People's Court taken to extremes, visit to
Bryce's alma mater, and a fascinating bit where Eddison does an
impersonation of Max, giving us our first glimpse of what Matt
Frewer looks like playing Max without make- up appliances and
*before* the video effects are added in.  Oh, yeah, Theora asked
Murray to marry her, but, poor Murray, I think she was teasing ...
A fine episode, certainly as good as the others from this season.

Cheers,
Robert J. Sawyer
in Toronto
c/o
Tom Nadas
UUCP:   {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom
CSNET:  tom@toronto

------------------------------

Date: 31 Oct 87 07:18:28 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: M-m-max Headroom

The L.A. Weekly reported yesterday that a "Save Max Hotline" has
been set up.  The number is (818) 377-5000.  Letters should be
directed to Brandon Stoddard at ABC.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 23 Oct 87 21:13:15 GMT
From: moss!inuxd!jody@RUTGERS.EDU (JoLinda Ross)
Subject: Re: TV: Beauty And The Beast

From: Caro.osbunorth@Xerox.COM
> With all the hub-bub about Star Trek:NG and the demise of Max
> Headroom, could it be possible that everyone has missed the
> excellent series "Beauty And The Beast"?
>
> Friday, 8:00pm on CBS.  Give it a try!  George R. R. Martin is
> Executive Story Consultant/Editor, and wrote the second (third?)
> episode.  The production is lavish without being glitzy.  The
> stories are straight ahead romantic fantasy, with a little
> action/suspense for spice.  If true love, faith, and compassion
> make you queasy, you probably won't like this series, but I'd say
> try it out a couple of times anyway.  Just to hear "Vincent's"
> voice.

I love the series.  But I fear something this good will not last on
TV.  The network executive/jerks will try to "improve" it or in
someway change it to make it more marketable. :-(

I was surprised how much I liked it, because I usually don't watch
romances.  This show may be romance but it definitely is something
else as well.  I highly recommend it!!!!

jody

------------------------------

Date: 26 Oct 87 22:26:00 GMT
From: gunsch@m.cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: TV: Beauty And The Beast

Catherine - played by lovely Linda Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 19:11:07 GMT
From: im4u!milano!wex@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: TV: Beauty And The Beast

I want to agree with Perry's remarks about "Beauty and the Beast."
It's pretty good, mostly avoiding the gross unrealisms that dog
ST:TNG and the over-simplistic moralizing that helped kill Max
Headroom.

If you're interested in where the idea for the beast came from,
check out the cover of John Crowley's BEASTS.  Vincent's "look" is
almost a straight copy of that cover.  Some of the themes of the
story are also found in the book.  I don't know for sure that this
is where the TV people got their idea - anyone have a better guess?

Alan Wexelblat
ARPA: WEX@MCC.COM
UUCP: {harvard, gatech, pyramid, &c.}!sally!im4u!milano!wex

------------------------------

Date: 28 Oct 87 19:14:52 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica

From: Joseph D. Jacobs <JACOBS@sushi.stanford.edu>
>       As mentioned in a recent discussion, Tolkien seems to be
> sacrosanct by many of the posters to sf-lovers.  On the other
> hand, Battlestar Galactica seems to be at the other end of the
> spectrum -- getting only endless criticism and snide remarks.  Why
> is this?  I personally thought it was a rather good series.  From
> what I've seen so far, I would definitely rank it above Star Trek:
> TNG.

I also enjoy the series "Battlestar Galactica", though I am
currently only watching the earlier series (which is now being
screened in U.K. on BBC2).  The original book was quite good - a lot
of it was written from Imperious Leader's point of view, showing why
the Cylons are out to get humanity. The series falls down here - it
shows no reason for the Cylons wanting to wipe out humans, nor gives
any other insight into the Cylon race.

Although I enjoy watching the series, I ceased to regard it as
serious science fiction as of the episode which had Apollo crash on
a Wild West planet which was being terrorised by a human boss named
La Certa and his gunman Red Eye. Red Eye turned out to be a Cylon
with unusually fast reflexes, who had survived numerous gunfights,
partly because even if someone did outdraw him the local's best
weapon was an air rifle. Apollo faced Red Eye in a Wild West style
shoot-out, pulling up his poncho in true Clint Eastwood style to
reveal his laser pistol. This episode wouldn't have been so bad if
the music being played in the saloon wasn't "The Sting" played out
of key in an attempt to disguise it.

Nonetheless, I enjoy watching the series, partly to see Cylons come
out with lines such as at the end of the film:

Imperious Leader : "I thought our raiders took them by surprise."
Cylon reporting  : "Apparently it was not as big a surprise as we
                   anticipated."

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sat,  7 Nov 87  15:57:37 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Battlestar Galactica & Lost In Space

I used to watch both BG and LIS several years ago, and yes I liked
them too! The first several episodes of BG were pretty good, the
broken-spirited human survivors fleeing from a nearly omnipotent
adversary, navigating through a void, and discovering their home
planet again. However, the series rapidly degenerated into a mushy
space sopa opera after Baltar's capture.  Galactica 1980 was a very
sad story, the Colonials finally finding Earth and unable to settle
there lest the Cylons destroy it as well. Lost In Space started off
as an intriging, imaginative odyssey and struggle for survival in an
unknown universe(sounds like Space:1999 doesn't it?). This series
started off better and ended up worse than BG, having absolutely
ridiculous plots and special effects worse than The Prisoner.

------------------------------

Date: 29 Oct 87 21:49:32 GMT
From: shoopak@topaz.rutgers.edu (Maverick)
Subject: Pyramids

In Battlestar Galactica, they played a game call pyramids.  It was a
poker variant.

I would like to know how the game was played, and what were the
cards in the deck?  I know they were hexagonal in shape but that's
about it.

Please e-mail.

Steven Shoopak
(201)932-3465
UUCP:  rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!shoopak
ARPA:  shoopak@topaz.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  2 Nov 87  18:26:39 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Captain Power

Yes, I admit it! My willpower broke down last night and I watched
the pilot of Captain Power And The Soldiers Of The Future. The
special effects were the only half-decent thing in the show, it was
a half hour of pure drivel.  The basic plot is Earth in the year
2147 AD after a nuclear war. Evil Lord Dred and his cyborg army,
after joining the Overmind, seek out all surviving humans and
digitize them. But one man, Captain Power, has the ability to stop
Lord Dred, along with his badly dressed sidekicks. That's all the
plot there was! The dialog and characters were as bad as I expected
them to be. Yet another half-hour long commercial.

andy

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 06:50:35 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Captain Power

From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>Yes, I admit it! My willpower broke down last night and I watched
>the pilot of Captain Power And The Soldiers Of The Future. The
>special effects were the only half-decent thing in the show, it was
>a half hour of pure drivel.

Interesting, I watched the pilot several weeks ago, and enjoyed it a
lot.  While the ending was a bit too "happy" (state of kids shows),
I thought there were several unexpected twists, and an unusual
accuracy.

Part of the plot has the Captain traveling to what is left of San
Francisco, to meet an old flame in City Lights book store. Well, I
was very startled when he gets to SF, and he goes into a building
that looks for all the world just like City Lights, and the inside
even has a downstairs, that is reached the same way as in the real
building.

The story itself, while not Hamlet, was engaging and was sincerly
acted (no camp) by the players. While I have no intention of buying
a Captain Power zap gun to shoot at the bad guys with, I have been,
and will probably continue watching the show. I would recommend it as
a nice light adventure show to just about anyone.

Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 18:05:15 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Captain Power

>Yes, I admit it! My willpower broke down last night and I watched
>the pilot of Captain Power And The Soldiers Of The Future. ...  The
>dialog and characters were as bad as I expected them to be. Yet
>another half-hour long commercial.

Before the series started, there was a promo commercial for the
series and the toys from it. That commercial is easily the best
episode of this series.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1987 19:43 PST
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Thunderbirds

From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>Does anybody else remember the British TV series "Thunderbirds"
>done by Gerry Anderson back in the 70's? The characters were made
>in the style of "Terrahawks" and featured a family-run secret
>organization called International Rescue. The base was on an island
>and the five sons each piloted one of the 5 Thunderbird craft. If I
>recall #1 was a atmosphere rocket, #2 looked like a fat Boeing, #3
>was a space rocket, #4 was a small submarine, and #5 was a space
>station.  Various episodes had the team involving in plane crashes,
>volcanos, meteor storms, and large fires. I quite liked it.

    Yes, I remember "Thunderbirds", but DON'T EVEN compare it to
"Terrahawks".  For one thing, Thunderbirds was made in the 60's (not
the 70's), and was done using "Supermarionation", i.e., the cast
consisted of marionettes with dubbed-in voices.  International
Rescue was the alter ego of the Tracy family, which consisted of a
father and five sons who piloted the ships, and "Brains" who was the
60's version of a hacker (i.e., requisite coke-bottle glasses,
etc.).  The effects were crude by today's standards, but the show
had enough neat ideas to keep it going.  I hear that it is still
very popular in England.

    Terrahawks, which has been kicking around since the early 80's,
uses some awful latex process to make their puppets, reminiscent of
"Spitting Image", and the scripts are strictly saturday-morning BS.
The models are just so-so, and they have these droids that look like
high-tech beach balls and talk with a cockney accent.  (It's not as
funny or entertaining as it sounds.)

    It seems that Gerry Anderson did his best work in the 60's.  I
can remember a very interesting discussion on "UFO" on this digest
around a year or so ago.  I'm sure there are people out there who
know more about Thunderbirds than myself.  I'd be interested in
knowing of it is still broadcast anywhere, or if it can be found on
tape.

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 18:15:06 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds

From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>     It seems that Gerry Anderson did his best work in the 60's.  I
> can remember a very interesting discussion on "UFO" on this digest
> around a year or so ago.  I'm sure there are people out there who
> know more about Thunderbirds than myself.  I'd be interested in
> knowing of it is still broadcast anywhere, or if it can be found
> on tape.

There have been a number of episodes of "Thunderbirds" released as
90-minute movies which are compilations of (usually) two of the TV
episodes.  The tapes I have include:

"Thunderbirds "Countdown to Disaster" : plot involves the collapse
of the empire state building

"Thunderbirds to the Rescue": :plot involves two successful attempts
at saving a sabotaged 21st century SST airliner.

"Thunderbirds in Outer Space" : A spaceship destined to crash into
the sun is saved, and a falling satellite containing a radio dj is
rescued.

"Thunderbird 6" :This is not a compilation of TV episodes but a
feature length film made after the TV series. I beleive another film
"Thunderbirds are Go" is also available on video, but I have never
seen it.

Bob neumann
P.O. Box 1582
Bridgeview, Ill 60455
(312)979 6533
(312)839-5978

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #496
Date: 10 Nov 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #496
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Nov 87 0905-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #496
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Nov 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 496

Today's Topics:

          Miscellaneous - Borrowing from Films (3 msgs) &
                          Mapping the World of Fiction &
                          What is SF (2 msgs) & 
                          DelRey Books (2 msgs) &
                          Conventions (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1987 19:09 PST
From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: FIlms that Star Wars "borowwed" from.

    I was always under the impression that the main inspiration for
the plot of Star Wars was a Japanese film from the 50's called "The
Hidden Fortress" (or something similar).  The plot concerns the
journey of a princess through hostile territory, guarded by two
Samuri, one of which is tall and cowardly, and another who is short,
plump, and has a "what-the-hell" kind of attitude.  I'm pretty sure
there was also a prince who comes to the princess' rescue, and an
old Samuri who gives the prince advice.

    Has anyone else heard of this film?  I am told the parallels are
quite striking...

Richard Smith
Cal St. Poly, Pomona
BITNET:  CADS079@CALSTATE
ARPA:  CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 18:35:20 GMT
From: agranok@udenva.cair.du.edu (Alex B. Granok)
Subject: Films that Star Wars borrowed from

From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>    I was always under the impression that the main inspiration for
>the plot of Star Wars was a Japanese film from the 50's called "The
>Hidden Fortress" (or something similar).
>
>    Has anyone else heard of this film?  I am told the parallels
>are quite striking...

THE HIDDEN FORTESS was directed by Akira Kurosawa.  It is a good
adventure film (if you like the samurai adventures), and I have been
told that it was indeed the model for the STAR WARS plot.  Then
again, the plot is so common that you could probably make that
statement with any of a hundred other films.

Alexander B. Granok
hao!udenva!agranok

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 87 15:09 EST
From: Boebert@mit-multics.arpa
Subject: Star Wars Trench Sequence

I believe that Lucas himself credited _The Bridges at Toko-Ri_,
which is Korean War; that movie, of course, could have lifted camera
angles from _633 Squadron_.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1987 17:02 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Mapping the World of Fiction

I note that the boundary dispute about what is
SF/SciFi/Fantasy/Literature/Horror

I'd like to switch the discussion to an analogous viewpoint -
Suppose we had a map of the world of FICTION with Countries and
regions being the Genre/Genres.  Stories, Authors would be the
indigenous population/species.  I get a swarm of ideas in *my* head
just thinking about such a map!

Example - Asimov, Clark, Niven, ... seem to live near to each other
in a country of hard physical features which is a long way from the
mysterious and magical heathland of Xanth, the Middle Earth etc..
There seems be a connecting isthmus with dragons, fire lizards,
telepathy, planets and spaceships...

The topology of such a map might tell us a lot about the meaning of
words like 'SF'.  Note - Getting maps of Pern, Middle Earth, Mongo
ad inf are not needed for this topic (let's do that another time...)

Has anyone ever seen or drawn such a map?  What comes to your mind
when you think about it?  Can we get a consensus on the space in
which SF exists?

Have fun.....

Dick Botting
Comp Sci, Cal State, San Ber'do
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
5500, State University Pkwy, San Bernardino, CA 92407

------------------------------

Date: Thu 5 Nov 87 00:41:35-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction

From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM
>from: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>>and always baffles me: SCIENCE does not imply FUTURE!  Perfectly
>>good science has been done in the past or the present.
>
>   If you examine my original posting you will notice that I do not
>say that Science implies future.  The book themes you describe
>would all fall under my definition of SCIENCE fiction.  In the
>Alien invasions/contact on present Earth it is not the Earth that
>has the technological sophistication, but the aliens.

Ok, perhaps I was unclear.  You seem to imply that that sf must have
ADVANCED technology.  Now I ask: is it possible to have a sf story
that involves current or even past science?  I think this is an
interesting question.  And if you insist that the science of the
story not exist yet, then does the story cease to be sf if its
"predictions" come true?  E.g. if someone wrote a story in 1940 that
talked about a moonshot in the 1960s, would that story not be sf?

There are some stories that take place in the past (Tim Powers, Jim
Blaylock, Howard Waldrop) These are all a bit wild and fantastic,
but it seems like one could write a more "hard" sf story set in the
past.  Or could one?  I'm not sure!  Does anyone know of any such
stories?  They would presumably be "alternate histories", else
they'd just be classed as "historical novels".  Imagine a story like
Lest Darkness Fall in which the protagonist has crashed via natural
means into a primitive culture (say he's a 19th c. African explorer
or something) and uses his modern 19th c. technology as Padway did
in LDF.  No advanced tech and no magic; would it be sf?  A real
example of this might be Auel's Mammoth Hunter business.  Some folks
consider that series to be sf.  (I'm making no claim as to their
quality here, not having read them.)

Another, perhaps more supportable idea, is that books like
McCaffrey's Pern series are thought of as sf by many folks even
though there's no high tech (or so I believe, not having read more
than half the first book 9 years ago...)  The example of an alien
invasion does not require hitech -- recall the movie Invasion of the
Body Snatchers -- if the aliens can travel through space
"naturally".  Yet it certainly seems like sf.  In short, Science
does not imply Technology, and it seems reasonable for a sf story to
have interesting scientific ideas (e.g. life that can travel through
space) without hitech.

Finally, there is the idea of sf as stories about science's effect
on society.  There are books like 1984 in which a lot of the
technology already exists; the speculative part that makes it sf is
the ways in which the technology is being used.  This twist that
makes this sort of book sf rather than mainstream is a twist that
has nothing to do with science or technology per se, but about
society/government/culture.

Sf is certainly a slippery subject to try to nail down.
Incidentally, I certainly agree that there is no clear borderline
between sf and fantasy (or any other genre for that matter) and that
Star Wars falls in both (as does Book of the New Sun.)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 20:21:21 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!orchid!jagardner@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction

From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@r20.utexas.edu>
>From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM
>>from: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>>>and always baffles me: SCIENCE does not imply FUTURE!  Perfectly
>>>good science has been done in the past or the present.
>Ok, perhaps I was unclear.  You seem to imply that that sf must
>have ADVANCED technology.  Now I ask: is it possible to have a sf
>story that involves current or even past science?

Many SF stories deal with this.  The most obvious ones are
post-Holocaust novels.  For example, A Canticle for Liebowitz
(Walter Miller) is about the process of rediscovering 20th century
science.  There is no science in the novel that goes beyond what we
know today.  (I phrase this carefully, because Canticle also
contains a small dose of folklore and Catholic mysticism that is
non-scientific, though very well done.)

Several other types of novels deal with non-futuristic science.  For
example, there's a class of novels that deal with frontier colony
worlds or worlds inhabited by non-futuristic alien societies.  These
places are not Earth, but the technology is usually similar to
primitive or medieval Earth.  Edgar Rice Burroughs stories have this
feel (although they occasionally have rocket ships and that sort of
thing); other examples that come to mind are "Her Majesty's
Bucketeers" and "The Flying Sorcerors".

Alternate history stories are traditionally regarded as SF, and many
of them do not involve fantasy elements or futuristic science.
"Suppose Hitler Won the War" stories are the most widespread
examples of this genre, but there are plenty of others.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  6 Nov 87 13:28 EST
From: <SEGAL%NYUACF.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: DelRey books and commitment.

I dunno.
Somewhere in the 21+ postings I received on monday, there was
mention of Del-Rey books, their (well - Judy-Lynn's) creation of the
mass fantasy market and how the other publishers, by not really
understanding what was going on, created the mass schlock-fantasy
glut. That isn't really the subject of this piece, however. (Even
though, if there are any publishing company execs out there who want
to correct Del-Rey's mistakes, please feel free.)
   The biggest problem with Del-Rey fantasy recently, has been their
incredibly half-s'ed commitment to the classic reprints that were
started by Judy-Lynn as personal projects. There are 3 series in
particular that they started and then dropped, and all 3 are series
that are particularly important to me.
   First we start with Thorne Smith. In 1980-81, DR reprinted 6 of
the 11 books Thorne had written, including _TOPPER_,
_TOPPER_TAKES_A_TRIP_ , and _THE_STRAY_LAMB_, all wonderful 20's
fantasy/satires that are most definately worth keeping in print.
Needless to say, they are all OOP by now, and were hard to get even
when they were available.
   Next came the Ruth Plumly Thompson OZ books. According to the
cover blurbs, these were a special project of love for BOTH
Judy-Lynn and Lester Del-Rey. All but the LAST FOUR of these books
were reprinted, followed by an annoucement that the last four were
to be postponed indefinitely, and no plans have yet been announced.
To the best of my knowledge (I may be wrong.) this announcment was
made after JL's death.
   Finally, there are the BARNABY books. What started out to be a
COMPLETE reprint of the BEST (in my opinion) fantasy Comic Strip of
all times. (by Crockett Johnson, creator of
_Harold_and_The_Purple_Crayon_.)  Of course, it should be
unsurprising to discover that this too has stopped, after 6 volumes.
Not only are there only 6 volumes, but they have always been hard to
get, due to (according to the bookstores I tried to get the books
at) poor distribution and large back orders.
   Now, the question here is, what is the reason for this
non-support of projects? Has Del-Rey always been like this,
promising the moon and delivering a ladder 25' too short? Or has the
death of Judy-Lynn signaled a change in editorial policy, from a
commitment to literature to *something* else? I mena, I love Del-Rey
for bringing back all the Baum OZ into print at once and *most* of
the Thompson's, but there are four more. Where are they? I'm glad
for the 6 BARNABY's, but how much more is there and will I ever see
them? And Thorne? About 5 of his books are available in hardcover,
but who can afford that? Whay can't there be support?
   Ah well, that's my big beef in publishing these days. Anyone want
to do something about it? Please?

Richard Segal
New York University
Segal@NYUACF7

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 04:20:32 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: DelRey books and commitment.

>        Next came the Ruth Plumly Thompson OZ books. According to
>the cover blurbs, these were a special project of love for BOTH
>Judy-Lynn and Lester Del-Rey. All but the LAST FOUR of these books
>were reprinted, followed by an annoucement that the last four were
>to be postponed indefinitely, and no plans have yet been announced.
>To the best of my knowledge (I may be wrong.) this announcment was
>made after JL's death.

They aren't postponed indefinitely. They are cancelled. Much as JL
wanted the OZ books available for the newer generations to read,
sales were incredibly small, especially after they switched from
regular paperback size for the Baum books to the more expensive
Trade Paperback size for the Thompsons. I was one of the folks
devastated by this, since I really want a complete set of Oz books.
sigh.

Anyone got any Oz books for sale?

>Now, the question here is, what is the reason for this non-support
>of projects? Has Del-Rey always been like this, promising the moon
>and delivering a ladder 25' too short?

If something doesn't sell, it is damn hard to justify publishing it.
The OZ books were losing money consistently. Even more so when they
switched to the Thompson books, which aren't in the public domain
yet (the Baum books are, so they don't require a royalty). That was
one reason the switch to trade size was made, but that dropped sales
even further because of the higher cost.

>Or has the death of Judy-Lynn signaled a change in editorial
>policy, from a commitment to literature to *something* else?

When the field loses someone like Judy-Lynn, there will be changes
in policy, if only because nobody else IS Judy-Lynn. Owen Locke has
gone in and done a good job at Del Rey, but he isn't JL, and doesn't
have the relationships or the loyalties from the authors that JL had
(look at all the authors that have jumped ship since her death,
including Marion Zimmer Bradley). I also don't believe that Locke
can control Lester the way JL could (Lester Del Rey is senior editor
of Del Rey Fantasy, Owen Locke is Editor-In-Charge of Del Rey Books)
and Lester, frankly, isn't a good Fantasy editor. The best Fantasy
always came from JL, even though she was nominally the SF Editor as
well as editor-in-charge.

>        Ah well, that's my big beef in publishing these days.
>Anyone want to do something about it? Please?

If someone funds me about a million dollars in financing, I can
start up Tintagel Press, and then we can do something about it.
Other than that, what do you think we OUGHT to do?

It's really a pity. I miss the Oz books, but I can't blame Del Rey
for not continuing them. From the sales figures, I'm a definite
minority who remembers enough about them to want them for the future
-- too small a minority to make them even break even, much less show
a profit. And breakeven was all JL wanted from those books.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 87 15:57:28 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Cons

Is the Boston ST Association holding a con this year?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Nov 87 17:42:10 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Blake's 7 Con update

                                ORAC
           An exclusive, Alpha-grade Blake's 7 Convention
                           is coming!!!!

                         April 9-10, 1988,
                               at the
                           Clarion Hotel
                         San Francisco, CA.

With Special Guests:

Paul Darrow (Kerr Avon) (just added)
Michael Keating (Vila Restal)
Janet Lees Price (Klyn - also Mr. Darrow's wife!) (just added)
Terry Nation (Series Creator)

(All guests subject to other professional commitments.)

Please send Email for more information, or see previous posting.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 23:07:07 GMT
From: okamoto@hpccc.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: WorldCon and others (Request for info)

Can anyone please tell me when and where the next WorldCon will be
held?

Also, is there a master list somewheres of the "major" SF/Fantasy
conventions that are upcoming?

Thanks in advance,

Jeff Okamoto
hpccc!okamoto@hplabs.hp.com
hplabs!hpccc!okamoto
(415) 857-6236

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 10-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #497
Date: 10 Nov 87 0928-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #497
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Nov 87 0928-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #497
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 Nov 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 497

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 21:17:48 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Re: ST:TNG --WNHGB-- (SPOILERS)

>I think what bothers all the flamers of The Narcoleptic Generation
>isn't simply that old ideas are getting recycled but the overall
>sloth that it indicates.  I mean, recycling "The Naked Time" is one
>thing, but duplicating *every* crisis in the original script looks
>terribly phony.

The ST was not all that original either. "Balance of Terror" was a
generic WW 2 destroyer vs. submarine story down to the same
dialogue. Then there were all the Earths the Enterprise kept
finding. Earth after WW 3, medieval England Earth, Prohibititon era
Chicago, Nazi Germany, Rome, etc. All those recycled ST stories have
one common characteristic with the recycled ST:TNG stories, they're
mainly terrible.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 87 12:09:31 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Why a French Captain in ST-TNG?

Re the recent discussions as to the "Frenchness" of the captain, and
why that particular character was so designed -- I think it has to
to with Jacques Cousteau, the currently-well-known French marine
explorer and ecologist. There are a lot of parallels between the
exploratory voyage of the Enterprise and the sort of thing many
millions have seen on TV specials about Cousteau's work and his ship
& crew. I think the show could only gain by somehow associating
itself in the viewers' minds with that other image of peaceful
scientific exploration.

This may be totally off-the-wall, or it might be true, but done
subsconsciously by ST-TNG's creators and writers, or it might have
been overt and a deliberate model to follow.

Regards,
Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  6 Nov 87  11:56:59 EST
From: NCC1701%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: The letter...

                                                Linda Peterson

Mr. Gene Roddenberry
"Star Trek"
ABC

Dear Sir:

  Although I am not a confirmed "Trekie", I looked forward to the
new Star Trek television series.  My overwhelming disappointment
caused me to write this letter.

  My concerns:

       Do you really believe in white male supremacy?  Surely the
       future will be more equitable - such as...

          An "Asian type" captain (we are outnumbered now by Asian
          peoples).  Also, baldness in the future?  I doubt it.

          Jonathan Frakes just does not have the face of a strong,
          aggressive "Number One" - perhaps a Latino, or a Jimmy
          Smits type.

          Do you really see "Miss Emotion" going into battle in a
          mini-skirt?!  The costumes in general lack imagination.

          Mr. Data looks like PeeWee Herman with his off-white skin
          and slicked back hair.  All the hairstyles seem to some
          from yuppie America.

          Do we really need another TV show with the young wiz-kid,
          who will obviously save the day.  Heck, why not add Lassie
          to the cast.

  Yes, the show did have some strong points.  The storyline fit the
mold.  The Klingon and "Blind" crew member are interesting.  Surely
the show will progress.  Maybe there will be an accident and some of
the crew will have to be replaced.  I won't change the channel yet.

  Thanks for listenning.

                                   Sincerely,

                                   /s/ Linda Peterson


10/5/87

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  6 Nov 87  11:57:40 EST
From: NCC1701%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: The Reply...

Paramount Pictures Corporation

October 27, 1987

Ms. Linda Peterson

Dear Ms. Peterson,

Thank you for your recent letter to Gene Roddenberry.  Although his
schedule doesn't permit him to respond to you personally, he has
taken the time to read your comments.  He is glad you felt strongly
enough about STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION to let him know your
thoughts about it.

Many of the suggestions we received in letters such as yours have
merit and may influence future episodes.  We hope you will continue
to watch STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION to see these developements.

Sincerely,

/s/Susan Sackett
Susan Sackett
Assistant to Gene Roddenberry
SS:akd

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 15:19:35 GMT
From: ir353@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Matthew Grayson)
Subject: Re: Kirk vs. Picard

From: WCUTECB <WCUTECB%IUP.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>But what you might want to look at, is how many deaths both men
>have been responsible for.  I find it hard to believe that after
>three years, anyone would want to transfer or sign up with the old
>NCC - 1701.  ......

I often wonder how security people on the Enterprise feel...

Kirk: Landing party to the transporter room. Spock, Bones, Sulu,
      and you too, Johnson...

You can bet that Johnson buys it before the next fade to commercial.

Next Episode....

Kirk: I don't get it, Bones, we have 150 security officer's on this
      ship, and they ALL have the flu?
Bones: Well, Jim, I guess this is just going to be one of those
       days when we lose an attractive junior science officer.

Oh well,
Matt
sdcc6!ir353@sdcsvax,ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 18:29:53 GMT
From: gatech!sdcsvax!esosun!artecon!macbeth@RUTGERS.EDU (Beckwith)
Subject: Re: STTNG: "Where no thing has gone before"

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>>I'm confused:  Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
>>Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?
>From the episodes seen so far, it appears that the chief engineer
>is an open role. How they will reconcile that with story "reality"
>will be interesting. There is precedence for this. The role of
>helmsman and navigator in ST were also open roles in the beginning.
>It wasn't until the second season that Sulu and Chekov were
>regularly manning the helm.

This might explain the letter that the actor who plays Argyle (Biff
Yeager, one of the more memorable Equity names I've seen) sent out,
soliciting mail on his work on ST:TNG. If he gets beaucoup mail, he
gets to work more and pay a few bills.

This is in no way to demean Mr. Yeager. I was in The Business for a
number of years and if you can find steady work of almost any kind,
you are one happy actor.

David Macy-Beckwith
Artecon, Inc.
2431 Impala Drive
Carlsbad CA 92008
{sdcsvax,hplabs}!hp-sdd!artecon!macbeth

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 07:54:53 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ST:TNG --WNHGB

From:   spca6!ray       (Ray Price)

> Wasn't the artwork of the M33 galaxy first used in a Space:1999
> episode??? Or maybe it was an episode of the Star Lost????:-)

Actually, I thought it was the first time I'd seen anything in the
new show that actually looks like it was painted by series
"Illustrator" (as it reads in the credits) Rick Sternbach.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 08:03:15 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: STTNG: Where No One Has Gone Before

From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu   (Richard Smith)

> I know I'm not the only person who was hoping they'd start using
> the ST novels as inspiration for their scripts, and I think
> "Wounded Sky" was a very good place to start.

Well, this shouldn't be too surprising, since Diane Duane, the
author of THE WOUNDED SKY, was co-scripter of "Where No One Has Gone
Before".

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 02:12:11 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Chief engineer

In the government vessels on which I've served (1 7800 ton Polaris
submarine, and 2 <=3000 ton NOAA research ships) there was only one
"chief engineer"; the way that job is structured, it would make more
sense for there to be one chief engineer (he is the head of the
engineering department) and several subordinates, each in charge of
a power plant (in the case of multiple power plants like those with
which the nuclear aircraft carriers are equipped).

Anyone got carrier or battleship experience to comment on a vessel
organization for something as big in personnel as the ST:TNG
vessels?

Kent Paul Dolan
P.O. Box 1559
Norfolk, Virginia 23501-1559
UUCP  :  kent@xanth.UUCP
         ...{sun,harvard}!xanth!kent
CSNET :  kent@odu.csnet
ARPA  :  kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Nov 87 04:35:48 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!bldrnr@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Brian Hurley)
Subject: Re: STTNG: "Where no thing has gone before"

dlow@hpccc.HP.COM (Danny Low) writes:
>>I'm confused: Who is the chief engineer, Lt.Cmdr.McDougall(?) or
>>Lt.Cmdr.Argyle?
>From the episodes seen so far, it appears that the chief engineer
>is an open role. How they will reconcile that with story "reality"
>will be interesting. There is precedence for this. The role of
>helmsman and navigator in ST were also open roles in the beginning.
>It wasn't until the second season that Sulu and Chekov were
>regularly manning the helm.

   Well it's seems to me that in ST the Security officers were
ALWAYS open roles, maybe the writers have the same similar
intentions for the engineering staff.(latest episode w/
Lt.Cmdr.Argyle) The security Officers had very short lives.

Brian Hurley
Bldrnr@apple.apple.com
Bldrnr@apple.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1987 19:49 EDT
From: S. Robert Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12

  I am a bit of a Star Trek fan and enjoy both the original show and
the new one.  As far as any science fiction goes, it is almost
impossible not to find a flaw or question the credibility of the
science being FICTIONALIZED.  However, where Star Trek goes, how
come no one ever tried transporting the engine out of a hostile
spaceship?  That would pretty much render the enemy defenseless.  If
that isn't feasible, why not just transport an exterior section of
the enemy ship, leaving a hole in the ship's hull?  Again, this
would be far more effective than phasers or photon torpedoes.  If
that is asking too much, why not transport the key personnel of the
enemy ship into the brig, out of harm's way?  Surely that must be
feasible since as we have seen, people can be transported away
unwillingly as Yar was on the second episode of TNG.  How come you
never see anyone on Star Trek eating pizza?  Don't they like pizza
or has pizza gone out of style in the twentythird century?  Anyway,
I wish everyone involved with TNG the best of luck.  The show is
well worth the time it takes to watch it.

Stan Horwitz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 87 11:57:07 CST
From: "Steve C. Gonzales" <$CS1136%LSUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: st:tng November 8th Episode

How did you like the way Data turned into Sherlock Holmes (much to
the funny em barrassment of Picard?) This episode was by far the
best yet of the new series.
 Perhaps this series, like the classic series and movies, will get
better and b etter with each episode.  The only problem I have with
this series (a minor one at that) is that the Enterprise is a little
low and long for me. Sure NCC-1701 -D is about three times the
length and twice the width of NCC-1701-A, but still , who, out of
the die-hard fans, can say that the Galaxy Class ship is more
favorable than the well known Enterprise Class.  It took me some
getting used to the new one, but as long as the series progresses
like it does, ST:TNG should have no troubles.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1987 15:21 EDT
From: Ray Lauff <RAY%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG

A friend of mine received a letter from Biff Yeager prior to the
airing of the episode "Where None Have Gone Before" requesting he
watch the show and send some feedback to him at Paramount.  In the
episode, he portrayed Lt. Commander Argyle, the engineer who
assisted the annoying guy (not the alien who beamed on board with
him, but the Enterprise engineer).

In his letter Mr Yeager requests that "if you or any of your friends
have some suggestions or there is something you don't like about how
(he) portrays the character of Argyle," he would very much like to
hear from you or your friends.  At first I thought it was a rib from
a buddy of mine who gets annoyed when I talk ST too much.  However,
it was printed on Paramount stationary, sounded very sincere, and
was accurate about the part Mr Yeager played in the show (yes, I do
watch the credits).

What I would like to know is: did anyone else on the net receive the
letter, and if so, did you write anything back?

I haven't written him anything yet, but what the heck, I might as
well get my $.02 in, just in case Lt. Commander Argyle shows up in
another episode.  (He didn't have much of a part in the show, so I'm
surprised he sent out any letters to fans at all unless he planned
on being a regular.)

Ray Lauff
RAY@TEMPLEVM

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 18:46:51 GMT
From: mimsy!cvl!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan
From: Faidley)
Subject: Re: STTNG:  Where No One Has Gone Before

>     Finally!  An episode that is worth criticizing!  I think it
> was the best one so far.  I know I'm not the only person who was
> hoping they'd start using the ST novels as inspiration for their
> scripts, and I think "Wounded Sky" was a very good place to start.

   In case you missed it this episode was cowrittren by none other
that Diane Duane herself, the author of "The Wounded Sky". As was
posted in the other article, "Where No One Has Gone Before" is about
improving the warp drive. "The Wounded Sky" is also about warp drive
technology and another plane of existance as a result of using this
technology. It would be even nicer if they could get some of the
other better STAR TREK novelists to write some of the episodes.
Enough for now.  Bye.

juan

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 17:45:40 GMT
From: psc@lznv.att.com (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG -- Rick Sternbach, mattes, and planets

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
>From:  spca6!ray       (Ray Price)
>> Wasn't the artwork of the M33 galaxy first used in a Space:1999
>> episode??? Or maybe it was an episode of the Star Lost????:-)
>
> Actually, I thought it was the first time I'd seen anything in the
> new show that actually looks like it was painted by series
> "Illustrator" (as it reads in the credits) Rick Sternbach.

I assume he does the matte work.  Rewind your tape to the scene in
"The Last Outpost" where Riker looks out (from a height) at the
desolate planet.  The Universal back lot isn't *that* big (or ugly).

TNG seems to be roughly alternating between (partially) planet-based
and (entirely) ship-based episodes:
   Encounter at Farpoint:  planet
   The Naked Now:  ship
   Code of Honor:  planet
   The Last Outpost:  planet
   Where No One Has Gone Before:  ship
   Lonely Among Us:  ship
   Wesley Crusher Must Die! (next week for me):  planet
(If I missed one, please *mail*, don't post.  I'll summarize.)

THE MAKING OF STAR TREK talked about the battle between these.
Paramount wanted more episodes with planet scenes in them.  The
people who worried about budgets wanted episodes where they could
just use (or dress up) the existing sets.  You *can* do an outdoor,
planet-based episode on the cheap ("Shore Leave", and maybe next
week's episode on the pleasure planet), but they're exceptional.

The planet scenes we've seen so far may have been shot entirely on
sound stages, but they did involve building new sets.

Paul S. R. Chisholm
{ihnp4,cbosgd,allegra,rutgers}!mtune!lznv!psc
AT&T Mail !psrchisholm
Internet psc@lznv.att.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #498
Date: 16 Nov 87 0839-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #498
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Nov 87 0839-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #498
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 498

Today's Topics:

             Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Delany (4 msgs) &
                     King & LeGuin & McCaffrey (2 msgs) &
                     Myers (2 msgs) & Yarbro & Zelazny

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 15:29:33 GMT
From: gatech!philabs!fmsrl7!grazier@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Grazier)
Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Agency (or DA steals from himself)

From: <AERTS%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (MAARTEN VAN DANTZICH)
> Yes, it is quite different from the Hitch Hiker's series, but this
>is exactly the point. Adams has said at more than one point that he
>was "out of steam" for the Hitch Hiker's characters, and wanted to
>move on to something else. I think he succeeded quite well.

Unfortunately, from the "moving on to something else" category,
Douglas Adams fails miserably in this book.  Many people who are
fans of "Doctor Who" were terribly disappointed with this book for
that reason.  In (roughly) 1978 Douglas Adams wrote a "Doctor Who"
episode called "Shada."  Unfortunately, due to a labor "action"
(read: strike), the episode was never finished (parts of the episode
were recorded, still exist, and are played at the occasional Doctor
Who / SF convention).  In the same season, DA also wrote the episode
"City of Death" under the pen name of David Agnew.  Target books has
been after Adams for years to novelize these two episodes along with
"The Pirate Planet," which he also wrote.  Adams refused to novelize
the episodes, yet refused to allow anybody else to novelize his fine
works.

"Dirk Gengly's Holistic Agency" is an undeniable cross between
"Shada" and "City of Death," right down to the character names
(Chronitis).  He makes little attempt to hide his self-plagiarism,
in fact.  I know someone who met him at a local book store and asked
about this.  All in all, he was quite straightforward about where
the material came from.  He also said that he would NEVER novelize
"Shada", "City of Death", OR "Pirate Planet" (Dirk Gently II?).
After "Dirk Gently", this is understandable.

>I'm a fan of Mr. Adams and won't deny it. I seem to like almost
>everything he does, and not because HE does it...

So am I, this is the reason I was somewhat disappointed with this
book.  Granted, it's funny, but I knew what was coming at page 147.
It appears to me, also, that Douglas Adams is at his best when it
comes to DESCRIBING things.  His descriptions of things (i.e. the
fellow's nose in DG), leave me in stitches!!!  I feel, though, that
he has a rough time ending books.  Sometimes it seems like he just
stops writing.

Don't get me wrong, though, I AM a big Douglas Adams fan, and look
forward with great anticipation to his next ORIGINAL book.

> I've said enough. The conclusion is that I _do_ reccommend people
>to go out and buy Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, but they
>might want to wait for the paperback edition....

...or watch "Doctor Who."

Kevin R. Grazier
Ford Motor Company Scientific Research Labs
Advanced Powertrain Systems & Controls Engineering
uucp: {philabs | pyramid | ihnp4!mibte} !fmsrl7!grazier
grazier@fmsrl7.UUCP
VOICE: (313) 739-7553

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 03:39:18 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!mandrill!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Dirk Gently's Holistic Agency (Minor Spoiler, lengthy)

AERTS@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:

>Yes, it is quite different from the Hitch Hiker's series, but this
>is exactly the point. Adams has said at more than one point that he
>was "out of steam" for the Hitch Hiker's characters, and wanted to
>move on to something else. I think he succeeded quite well.

Unfortunately, what he moved on to was DOCTOR WHO.  You see,
_Dirk_Gently_ rather closely resembles an episode of DOCTOR WHO,
written by Adams, which was never shown due to a strike at the BBC.
_Dirk_ showed us Doctor fans why there are no plans to resurrect
"Shada"....

>P.S: Are there other occurrances of Macs in books etc.? I know of
>the Banana Jr that appeared for a while in Bloom County (isn't he
>cute!), but there may be more.. anyone?

Not exactly a book reference, but one showed up in the last STAR
TREK movie ("Keyboard?  How quaint!").

Brandon S. Allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu
{harvard!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal,uunet!hnsurg3}
  !ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Nov 87 15:00:25-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Delany

Samuel Delany's new book The Bridge of Lost Desire is out, and I
just bought a copy.  (And as far as I know, the rumors of his death
are exaggerated.)

I have heard from someone who knows him that Waldenbooks and B.
Dalton refused to carry this latest book from Delany because its
subject matter was too controversial for them.  Because this boycott
meant loss of about 60% of the sales, his original publisher balked
and he had to go to a new publisher.

Can anyone confirm, deny or elucidate this rumor?  If true, I find
it pretty offensive.  I don't shop at the big chains anyway, but if
I did, I might quit over this.

Russ

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 05:56:41 GMT
From: unirot!liz@RUTGERS.EDU (Mamaliz )
Subject: Re: Delany

Hmmm, I can believe that the bookstores don't like him.  But I adore
him!

Does anybody know who is carrying the new book?  Am I going to have
to go to NY to get it?

liz

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 05:00:00 GMT
From: husc6!necntc!frog!wjr@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Richard)
Subject: Re: Delany

CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU writes:
>Samuel Delany's new book The Bridge of Lost Desire is out...
>I have heard from someone who knows him that Waldenbooks and B.
>Dalton refused to carry this latest book from Delany because its
>subject matter was too controversial for them.  Because this
>boycott meant loss of about 60% of the sales, his original
>publisher balked and he had to go to a new publisher.
>
>Can anyone confirm, deny or elucidate this rumor?  If true, I find
>it pretty offensive.  I don't shop at the big chains anyway, but if
>I did, I might quit over this.

Well, I can deny part of it anyway.  I just bought a copy of BoLD in
the B.Daltons next door.  I note though that this is another
Neveryon book not the promised sequel to _Stars in My Pocket Like
Grains of Sand_. Maybe that's the Controversial one, though I can't
think why. What bothers me about this rumor though, aside from the
implication that publishers are showing manuscripts to the chain
store buyers before accepting them, which I don't really believe, is
that bookstores usually like controversial books because controversy
sells books. In summary, I don't give much credit to this rumor.

William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems
983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701
Tel: (617) 626-1112
uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 21:19:23 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Vertical integration of publishing

From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@r20.utexas.edu>
>Samuel Delany's new book The Bridge of Lost Desire is out, and I
>just bought a copy.  (And as far as I know, the rumors of his death
>are exaggerated.)
>
>I have heard from someone who knows him that Waldenbooks and B.
>Dalton refused to carry this latest book from Delany because its
>subject matter was too controversial for them.  Because this
>boycott meant loss of about 60% of the sales, his original
>publisher balked and he had to go to a new publisher.

From what I read in LOCUS, the conglomerates that are currently
sucking up publishing houses are also inhaling bookstore chains, and
putting members of one board of directors on the other's boards.
The result must inevitably be >more< generic fantasy, generic serial
war/adventure SF, movie tie-ins, TV tie-ins, and in general novels
as homogenous as the houses can make them.

This homogenization trend has been going on for about ten years now.
Part of the reason it has not been so apparent is that writing
standards have been forced higher and higher; the market has opened
up, but there are still 100 manuscripts for every one published, and
more writers trying to break in all the time.  So we're getting
better and better treatments of older and older stuff.  And this is
not all bad.  I would rather go out and buy the newest Amber book
myself than take a chance on some new name.

The Amber books are a poor example, though - I'd consider Anthony or
Chalker or Kurtz as more representative of the trend.

As I said in a previous posting on the subject I can't object to any
books selling well, because their profits make possible the
publication of lesser works and first novels from newcomers.  It's
not a zero-sum game.

Mike MacLeod

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 11:37:40 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: The Stand

Some time ago I heard rumors about Stephen King's The Stand being
filmed.  Is it finished ? Here in the bleak North we don't get to
see anything that isn't either a box office hit, or a *Work of Art*
(in the opinion of our beloved Film Control).

I don't expect a whole lot from the picture, as the book is all but
unfilmable (?), but nevertheless ...

Kai

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 87 18:20:28 PST
From: gruber.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: THE DISPOSSESSED... Odonian philosophy

   I just read Ursula K. Le Guin's THE DISPOSSESSED... I won't give
a review (it's not a recent book and many of you have read it
anyway) but I will say that it is mostly *ideas*, so I can
understand why some people have said they find Le Guin's writing dry
or boring.  I thought it was great -- reminded me of reading WALDEN
TWO in many ways.  (I liked THE DISPOSSESSED much better.  Even the
stuff about finding a life-long "partner" struck a chord: perhaps I
am becoming a sappy romantic type? . . . . . Naaaaaaaaah.)

   I am wondering: has she written anything else which includes more
discussion of Odonian philosophy?  Just curious.  (Actually, I'm
going to start a revolution. :->)

Bob Gruber
ARPA: Gruber.PA@Xerox.Com
UUCP: ...ucbvax!hplabs!parcvax!gruber
      ..ucbvax!xerox.com!gruber.pa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 12:52:50 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Pern as SF

Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU> writes:
>McCaffrey's Pern series are thought of as sf by many folks even
>though there's no high tech (or so I believe, not having read more

The sf in here is not obvious. The foreword states that Pern was
settled by Terrans, but when Thread started falling, what little
communication they had with home broke off, because they were
somewhat occupied. The dragons were indeed bred up from fire
lizards, using genetic engineering.

SPOILER WARNING!

Also, in _The_White_Dragon_, the leaders of Pern use a newly
re-invented telescope to discover that what was thought to be an
unusual cluster of stars called the Dawn Sisters was actually a
space station, or the ships that the original colonists travelled
in.  Jaxom later finds the ships that the landed in (which,
according to _The_Atlas_of_Pern_, look like the Space Shuttle, only
larger.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 05:59:02 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Pern as SF

Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes:
>>McCaffrey's Pern series are thought of as sf by many folks even
>>though there's no high tech (or so I believe, not having read more
>
>The sf in here is not obvious. The foreword states that Pern was
>settled by Terrans, but when Thread started falling, what little
>communication they had with home broke off, because they were
>somewhat occupied. The dragons were indeed bred up from fire
>lizards, using genetic engineering.

To me, Pern is SF at its best: a portrait of people in a situation
that is utterly impossible in our world. This definition is
admittedly simplistic, but to me it seems to embody much of what I
enjoy in science fiction. The Pern books do it admirably.

[ minor spoilers.. ]

> [miscellany about the rediscovery of telescopes, the realization
> that the dawn sisters are satellites, all deleted]

It was not made entirely clear, but I caught signals throughout the
series that said quite clearly, Pern was colonized by people from
another world. Such hints are sprinkled throughout the books, if one
looks hard enough.

Bill Wisner
..{codas,ihnp4}!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 21:11:06 GMT
From: ames!atari!imagen!fjd@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Fred Drinkwater)
Subject: Re: Mapping the World of Fiction

With regard to mapping the world of fiction, I recommend the book
*Silverlock* by John Meyers Meyers (not a typo).

Anyone care to discuss this book?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 06:31:08 GMT
From: greely@orange.cis.ohio-state.edu (john greely)
Subject: Re: Mapping the World of Fiction

fjd@imagen.UUCP (Fred Drinkwater) writes:
>With regard to mapping the world of fiction, I recommend the book
>*Silverlock* by John Meyers Meyers (not a typo).
>
>Anyone care to discuss this book?

  Yes!  Great book, not to be read on an empty stomach (curl up with
large supply of munchies, too much caf,and enjoy).  It is perhaps
the richest literary-fantasy universe I've seen.  Not a stone is
left unturned in this dense, educated, quite readable book.  I will
not say anything about the plot, characters, etc., mostly because I
haven't read it for several years, and I _know_ most of what I
remember is wrong.

  It's a helluva story, and you could (can/will) spend hours trying
to discover just who that minor character is, or _where_ our hero
has ended up now.  Don't avoid it, read it!

  As an aside, he also has another very educated, deep fantasy out
(slightly more recent), "The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter".  Same
style, definitely worth reading.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 19:40:02 GMT
From: dlow@hpccc.hp.com (Danny Low)
Subject: Re: Yarbro

>I have only read False Dawn, and it was OK, but not impressive. But
>the references to "vampire books" aroused my interest. Are they
>anything in the vein (ugh!) of Anne Rice ? In that case I will not
>rest until they are in my possession.

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's vampire novels are basically historical
romances with the vampirism simply being a characteristic of the
hero, like being very strong. The vampirism is pertinent but these
novels are NOT tradition vampire stories.

Danny Low
Hewlett-Packard
...!ucbvax!hplabs!hpccc!dlow

------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Nov 87 14:58:51-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Amber game

I know a fellow who used to work at West End Games.
His info on Amber is:

It is not a roleplaying game but a board game.  It is being
developed by Eon (who did Cosmic Encounter, Hoax, Quirks, Enterprise
Encounter, etc).  It has been under development for years, and has
grown into a very big complex game.  My friend said that the board
was very strikingly colorful in a chaotic dizzying way (sounds like
SPI's Outreach!) and movement through shadow worlds depended on your
remembering paths on the board.  There were rules for duels and all
sorts of stuff.  It would have been a huge and expensive game.  The
last he heard, it's still being worked on, or may be in limbo.  It
sounds pretty interesting to me, but perhaps not commercially
viable.  I hope WEG publishes it one day.  I always thought Amber
would be a neat setting for a game.

Russ

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #499
Date: 16 Nov 87 0850-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #499
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Nov 87 0850-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #499
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 499

Today's Topics:

                 Films - Making SF Films (6 msgs) &
                         The Princess Bride (2 msgs) &
                         Lifeforce

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 21:06:43 GMT
From: dlleigh@mit-amt.media.mit.edu (Darren L. Leigh)
Subject: Re: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.uk>
>What happens in producers' heads when they create films based on SF
>story lines?  Why do they choose the stories they do? Why do they
>feel that they can screw up the plots? What are the audiences that
>they are attempting to reach?  These and may other questions run
>through my head while watching most SF films.  Does anybody know
>the answers?

Film is just not a very good medium for science fiction.  Part of
the big thrill of SF is visualizing the cultures and surroundings.
In a film you get hit over the head with the stuff, so there is
practically no participation of the viewer.

When you read a book, there are only two people that decide what
everything will look like: you and the author.  The author has
personally dedicated a lot of time and talent into forming the
skeleton of a fictional society, and you as the reader fill in the
gaps the way you like them.  Movies, on the other hand require
hundreds of people to produce and millions and millions of dollars
worth of capital (especially SF which needs special effects).  With
all of those people and all that money floating around, the people
who supplied both are not going to want to relinquish control so
that one master SF craftsman (like the author) can make all of the
decisions.  Other people who know less and care less have too much
input and the whole thing goes awry.

This is why there are so many *really* lousy SF movies, and only a
few mediocre ones.  I can't think of any really good ones.  Sure
some are terrific as movies, but none are better than mediocre as
science fiction.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 23:26:56 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Re: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

Broadly, fiction is about people.  Lots of SF is about ideas; that's
it's charm.  Even so, when you ask people which SF novels they
consider memorable, invariably it's a set of novels with memorable
characters, like Valentine Michael Smith or Paul Atriedes.

When translating a hard-science SF story to the screen, about the
only frame that fits from the stock fiction format is the police
procedural (Alien, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Blade Runner) and
military/war movies (Star Trek, Star Wars).

I think that screenwriters have a poor understanding of SF in
general and a tendency to simplify situations.  I actually think
that _DUNE_ could have been a good 3-hour movie if the screenwriters
had known what to >leave out< and what to >leave in<.  Instead, it
was a stew of character sketches and off-the-wall ideas, set against
a vast budget of baroque sets and florid special effects.

One of the finest hard SF movies - Phase IV - had >none< of the
above going for it.  The characters were not flamboyant, the effects
were very restrained (and excellent), and the film managed to retain
a semidocumentary feel throughout.  This was because the film crew
understood their own medium to a T; the movie succeeds because of
its superb use of microphotography and sets.

So I suppose I have not answered your questions about why SF movies
are limp or disappointing.  Suffice it to say that, contrary to
first impressions, the genre does not translate well into what
Americans expect of feature movies.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 00:16:25 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!dagibbs@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.uk>
>What happens in producers' heads when they create films based on SF
>story lines?  Why do they choose the stories they do? Why do they
>feel that they can screw up the plots? What are the audiences that
>they are attempting to reach?  These and may other questions run
>through my head while watching most SF films.  Does anybody know
>the answers?

In marketing and producing films, they want to reach the widest
possible audience, and they want a film that all the people will be
able to understand and enjoy.  So they say "people like neat special
effects, sf films let me use lots of neat special effects, let's
make an sf film".  But they have to make it understandable to the
majority of people so that lots of people will pay money to see it
and they can get back all the money it takes to make the special
effects.  While most literature is written for a more (dare I say
intelligent?) intelligent public, people who can read, and are
willing to make the effort to read and understand a book, so the
stories can be more complex and require more thought.  Non-sf films
can be (sometimes) made on a lower budget, and therefore be made to
appeal to a more restricted audience, that is why some are better.

dave
{the-world}!watmath!dagibbs

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 21:25:16 GMT
From: jgray@toad.pilchuck.data-io.com (Jerry Late Nite Gray)
Subject: Re: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.uk>
> What happens in producers' heads when they create films based on
> SF story lines?  Why do they choose the stories they do? Why do
> they feel that they can screw up the plots? What are the audiences
> that they are attempting to reach?  These and may other questions
> run through my head while watching most SF films.  Does anybody
> know the answers?

I'll take a shot at it:

One must remember that the movie industry is market driven in a very
peculiar sense of the word. You can divide the movie industry into
two basic camps that can be defined by looking at all of the Academy
award winners for the past 50 years. If a move has a good humanistic
story (regardless of historical, horror or even science fiction
content) with the appropriate mixture of acting talent, good
movie-wise plot development (a study unto itself), direction, and to
some extent reasonable relevance to our social values (why is Jerry
Lewis so popular in France) it will do well and be praised. This
sort of makes group number one though I could add many more feature
to the filtering list.

Group number two is comprised of all those movies where certain
features in group one were attempted, and perhaps even succeeded but
failed in too many other important areas. SF movies, as well as
Horror and fantasy films, are typically sponsored and produced by
people who have difficulty seeing past including the requisite
numbers of monsters and flashy gadgets.  I prefer to call these
attempts "feature dominated" movies. In previous postings people
have referred to the hero's tale (See book "Hero with a Thousand
Faces") which is so common to all forms of literature that it is
really a joke that much the SF, Fantasy and Horror movie forgets to
have a decent plot let alone a few basic ideas of story telling.
Lucas and Spielberg at least have a significant enough grasp of
movie story telling (which is distinctly different from book story
telling) to have an impact on Hollywood.

All of the proposed questions get answered by the producer/director
by what is market-wise practical. Rights to popular novels are
purchased and they are hacked into whatever form the movies takes on
to be practical.  Practical art?.... Practical entertainment?.....
You see what I mean.  And this doesn't even address the more serious
problem that not very many written stories (even with the best
intentions and/or effort and/or talent) translate well to the screen
without significant modification.

It also heavily depends on having people that care about the movie
production. Though not everything they have done is top-notch the
work of Robert Wise (The Haunting), George Pal (When Worlds Collide,
Destination Moon, Time Machine, etc.) and a few others I can't
remember the names of obviously care a great deal about their work.

Jerrold L. Gray
10525 Willows Road N.E. /C-46
Redmond, Wa.  98052
(206) 881 - 6444 x470
UUCP:{ihnp4|caip|tektronix|ucbvax}!uw-beaver!tikal!pilchuck!jgray

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 15:59:02 GMT
From: harvard!bbn!ima!interlan!deem@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Deem)
Subject: Re: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

All this talk about SF movies reminds me of something that keeps
popping up on my wish list: An 1 hour weekly show on PBS (or cable
channel) that picks the best novels SF has to offer (not necessarily
the most popular) and produces them in their entirety in serialized
form.

In order to make it, these programs must go all out (good actors and
special effects) but at the same time be cheep to make.  Enter
another item from my wish list: AI computer systems that, with the
help of a director, read the books then produce the scenes using
high-res graphics and sound generation.

Now if only computer time for such things were cheap . . . .

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 21:24:17 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Is there good SF outside of books?

I'd try to answer this by referring to another perennial question:
Why are science fiction movies consistently twenty years behind
science fiction books in science-fictional sophistication?

The answer is that in a two- or three-hour book or movie you can't
tell a good story *and* introduce hundreds of new concepts.  Most of
the concepts you use have to be within the experience of the
audience.

When Buck Rogers first appeared in print (Armagedon 2419), the
author couldn't take ray guns for granted -- he had to explain them
at length.  Twenty years later, authors didn't have to explain them;
the readers knew what ray guns were.  Now they're a tired cliche:
just *dare* have a character use a "ray gun".

Science fiction *movies* have to appeal to people who haven't been
reading science fiction books, and can take much less for granted.
There has been progress in the past couple of decades, thanks to the
number of science fiction movies that *have* appeared (and thanks to
ST: trite though some of the episodes might have seemed, they were
an elementary education in SF).  A movie with space ships doesn't
have to devote an hour to justifying the concept to the audience.
Ray guns are *so* familiar that they have to be called something
else.

But don't try to make a popular science fiction movie in which
someone looks at the control board and casually says "looks like a
Dyson sphere".  It's too early.

Yes, we can make good science fiction movies, but they're going to
keep disappointing science fiction readers, because the ones that
sell will keep being the ones we'd have killed to see twenty or
thirty years ago.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Nov 87 15:01 PST
From: Morgan Mussell <MORGAN%FM1%sc.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: A tale of two movies

I happened to see two new films during the last week, "Princess
Bride", and "Made In Heaven". I was surprised to see several
thematic parallels.  I was disappointed by the first movie, and
delighted by the second.

Similarities: Both are stories of love found, then lost, with an
arduous chase to find the beloved again.  Both feature the sacred
marriage as the central archetype, with with a lot of peripheral
action, comic elements and even "haw-haw get it?" humor along the
way.  Princess Bride is a fairytale.  Made In Heaven is...well it's
certainly speculative fiction.

Princess Bride: The film seemed a little ashamed of itself for being
a fairy- tale.  As if it was necessary to slip in enough coy little
scenes and lines ("when you've got your health you've got just about
everything...") to reassure the "adults" in the audience that it's
okay to be there.  I mean we can chuckle knowingly while the kiddies
hoot or howl in earnest.

Phooey!  I take my fairy tales seriously!  Not only do I love them,
but I try to treat them with the dignity Jung or Campbell accord
them.  Compared to a classic cinematic effort in this genre, like
Cocteau's "Beauty and the Beast", Princess Bride looks a little too
slick and insincere.

Made In Heaven: Had the chase, the suspense, likeable and attractive
central characters, and some striking cinematography.  A lot of
films do.  The resonance I felt here was like the resonance of "It's
A Wonderful Life"; an image that says no matter how chaotic or
fragmentary events appear, there is a hidden harmony.

In the main plot, as well as some of the side themes (like the boy
hitching a ride with his parents from the past) I am reminded of the
figure of Shiva in in Hindu art.  The destroyer of illusion (ie,
phenomenal worlds and creatures) weilds a mean sword in one of his
four arms.  With another he makes a gesture which means "fear not".
It is, after all, only illusion that is destroyed.

I think this film is the first I've seen in some time that is likely
to find a comfortable home among "the classics".

Morgan Mussell

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 17:16:45 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: THE PRINCESS BRIDE (was A tale of two movies)

From: Morgan Mussell <MORGAN%FM1%sc.intel.com@relay.cs.net>
> I happened to see two new films during the last week, "Princess
> Bride", and "Made In Heaven"....I was disappointed by the first
> movie...

I haven't seen MADE IN HEAVEN, so I can't comment on that, but
disappointment!!?? with THE PRINCESS BRIDE!!!!????  It's only the
best whimsical adventure film to appear since THE THREE (and FOUR)
MUSKETEERS!

> Princess Bride: The film seemed a little ashamed of itself for
> being a fairy tale. As if it was necessary to slip in enough coy
> little scenes and lines ("when you've got your health you've got
> just about everything...")  to reassure the "adults" in the
> audience that it's okay to be there.  I mean we can chuckle
> knowingly while the kiddies hoot or howl in earnest.

Hunh???  Did you see the same film I did???  You missed the point
*entirely*!  THE PRINCESS BRIDE wasn't "ashamed of itself for being
a fairy tale" --- it *reveled* in it!!! Goldman's script, and his
original novel from which it was based, was meant as the Ultimate
Fairy tale. Both novel and script (and Rob Reiner's directing) were
born out of pure love for fairy tale adventure.

> Phooey! I take my fairy tales seriously! Not only do I love them,
> but I try to treat them with the dignity Jung or Campbell accord
> them.

Sounds to me like a contradiction in terms.

> Compared to a classic cinematic effort in this genre, like
> Cocteau's "Beauty and the Beast", Princess Bride looks a little
> too slick and insincere.

There's a difference in taking a fairy tale seriously and insisting
that all fairy tales be serious. I can't argue that Cocteau's film
is a cinematic treasure, but THE PRINCESS BRIDE is no less so
because it's light-hearted.

I take my science fiction seriously, too, but that doesn't mean I
can't enjoy the pure pulp of something like STAR WARS.

> I think [MADE IN HEAVEN] film is the first I've seen in some time
> that is likely to find a comfortable home among "the classics".

Harrumph. That's exactly what I felt about THE PRINCESS BRIDE.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 87  12:37:18 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Lifeforce

I saw the movie Lifeforce over the summer, and I was very
disappointed.  It suffered from the old cliche of explaining Earth
legends as alien visitors, the plot was weak, and there was too much
emphasis on special effects and gore. Another horrible vampire movie
was Vamp, just plain silly. The Lost Boys was one of the best in
recent years.

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
Umass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
nutto%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
nutto%umass.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #500
Date: 16 Nov 87 0906-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #500
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Nov 87 0906-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #500
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 500

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 19:17:44 GMT
From: bobj@ihlpf.att.com (Evanovich)
Subject: Re: Chief engineer

kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>In the government vessels on which I've served (1 7800 ton Polaris
>submarine, and 2 <=3000 ton NOAA research ships) there was only one
>"chief engineer"; the way that job is structured, it would make
[deletions for brevity]
>Anyone got carrier or battleship experience to comment on a vessel
>organization for something as big in personnel as the ST:TNG
>vessels?

I served on the carrier USS Enterprise between 1972 and 1974.  At
that time they had one chief engineering officer rank of full
commander with four or five subordinate officers of Lt. commander
rank.

Bob Evanovich
AT&T Bell Labs
ihnp4!ihlpf!bobj

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 16:09:14 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Kirk vs. Picard

I think the constant surrendering is one of the really important
innovations in the show.  Experiences in the original Star Trek
series established that:

(a) The galaxy has a lot of beings with vastly superior technology.

(b) Most of these beings are pacifistic (aggressively so!) or easily
annoyed.

Now the last thing that the Federation wants is some hotshot captain
firing on the God-of-the-Week.  Not only is that likely to destroy
the ship involved, but it may convince the God-of-the-Week to stomp
on the Federation and its allies.  Dignified surrender saves lives
and establishes the Federation's determination to meet the unknown
with peaceful overtures.

It is conceivable that surrender has become general policy, though a
policy not widely publicized (since saber-rattlers still abound,
especially those of Klingon extraction).  We have yet to see any
point where the surrender turned out to be a bad idea, and we have
yet to see a point where the person receiving the surrender asked
for unacceptable terms.  If the Enterprise surrendered to X and X
demanded executions of Enterprise personnel, I suspect that the
surrender would be withdrawn PDQ...but as long as the surrender is
not exploited, the captain has nothing to lose.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 00:34:03 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: Why a French Captain in ST-TNG?

wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA writes:
>Re the recent discussions as to the "Frenchness" of the captain,
>and why that particular character was so designed -- I think it has
>to to with Jacques Cousteau, the currently-well-known French marine
>explorer and ecologist.  [...]
>
>This may be totally off-the-wall, or it might be true, but done
>subsconsciously by ST-TNG's creators and writers, or it might have
>been overt and a deliberate model to follow.

  It was intentional on the part of Gene Roddenberry.

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 13:40:00 EST
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG "The Lonely ...."(?) and Transporters

From: <LEE_JES%CTSTATEU.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Jeffrey S. Lee)
>Nevertheless, the point raised in the novel IS valid...  When your
>physical body is converted into energy, transferred to another
>point and re-converted, how can you be sure that you're still you?
>I agree that the quality of some of the novels leaves much to be
>desired, but you can't dismiss an argument merely because you don't
>like its source.

The latest ST:TNG titled "The Lonely ..." (I can't remember the rest
of the title) throws some more questions and possible answers about
transporters.  I should probably take another look at the end of the
episode, but it seems there was a good amount of information sent
our way. (What follows is according to my memory.) The transporter
apparently keeps a memory or code of someone that it transports.
Also it seemed important for Picard to "remember" how he was before
he was transported.  I hope that some people have taken a careful
look at what happened and can correlate the new information with old
material.

The coming attractions for most of the episodes make me think the
episode is worse than it actually turns out to be.  The next one
again looks bad.  Of course they do have the opportunity to write
Wesley out of the show here, but I doubt they have done that.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 18:55:31 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: STTNG:  Where No One Has Gone Before

ecf_ejf@jhunix.UUCP (Juan Faidley) writes:
> "The Wounded Sky" is also about warp drive technology and another
> plane of existence as a result of using this technology.

From what I recall about _The Wounded Sky_, the Hamalki Inversion
Drive uses principles quite different from those used for the warp
drive (although I guess no one has really figured out exactly how
the warp drive works, Duane made up her own version).  With the warp
drive, according to Duane, the ship creates a shell of
"otherspace"--that is, another universe where the speed of light is
faster, hence allowing the ship to move faster than the speed of
light in the "real" universe.  With the Inversion Drive, the drive
"creates" a small amount of infinite mass, causing the container (in
this case, the ship) to collapse to a point, and beyond.  The
infinite mass comes from "de Sitter space", a postulated space which
contains an infinite amount of infinite mass in a large number of
dimensions.  Apparently, when you "collapse" and "negatively
re-expand" into de Sitter space, you can then "elect" one of any
number of acceleration vectors in any direction.  So travelling to
_any_ position, no matter how far, is instantaneous from the point
of view of the "real" universe.

"But it'll never fly..."

nj
{pur-ee, rutgers, uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Nov 87 09:42:18-CST
From: LI.BOHRER@A20.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: re: re:STTNG: The Last outpost
To: ames!pyramid!weitek!robert@UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU

Mais non, here is the real puzzler:

Why eez eet heez *mother* who has the frensh accent?

In that episode where they are all deluded into seeing stuff that
aint there (I've gotten amazingly slack and neglectful about
remembering titles) Captain Picard sees his mother and she has a
decidedly frensh accent.  Could this mean:

   a) the French have thrown thousands of years of naming tradition
      to the proverbial winds for the sake of modernity?  Not bloody
      likely from a people who, like sitting ducks, marched into WWI
      in scarlet and blue uniforms because they looked nice.

   b) Maybe he's a bastard, and maw wasn't married, so the name is
      hers.  Whence the Shakespearian accent, however?

   c) Maybe the producers couldn't find a genuine French person
      for the role, and were afraid someone else would sound
      like Pepe LePeeuw.(sp?) if they tried to fake it.

BTW, `Picard' is a typically French-CANADIAN name.  Heaps o' diff if
you happen to be such.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 17:16:13 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Chief Engineers

How's this for a scenerio.  The Enterprise (NCC-1701D) has several
people with the title "Chief Engineer" and a "Captain of
Engineering" (that title should sound familiar to watchers of ST
films.)

Silly?  Sure, but we need an explanation.  Giving people more and
more impressive titles is a very human trait, likely to be carried
on into the 23rd and 24th centuries.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

From: gruber.pa@xerox.com
Date: 12 Nov 87 00:33:43 GMT
Subject: Question on the Prime Directive / Comment on ST:TNG "Justice"

The most recent ST:TNG episode "Justice" (aka Pleasure Planet) has
me wondering about the Prime Directive.  The way I thought it worked
was the following: if you encounter a planet with an evolving
civilization, do not interfere in any way, *including*, for example,
letting it be known that there are star-faring races, if this is not
already known.  (Why else did Kirk et. al. get dressed up in local
garb all the time when visiting less-advanced cultures?)  How is it
that Picard et. al. feel free to beam down on Pleasure Planet and
let people know that they are from space?  These people clearly were
not previously aware that space-travellers exist, considering the
reaction of one of them when she was brought aboard the Enterprise
(you must be gods) -- a clear violation of the PD, it seems to me.

Anyway, can someone post the actual wording of the Prime Directive?
Thanks.

(*Spoiler for Pleasure Planet episode...*)

I agree with the person that pointed out that it would have been
trivial to avoid violating the PD in this episode.  If Bones can
fake a death, Dr. Crusher should be able to.  This would be a ripoff
of some other shows but I would have preferred it to the brain-dead
solution Picard chooses. (Let's just beam out of here and hope the
gods don't get mad at us. Yeah, that's the ticket...)

I was also bothered by the age range on the planet (no babies, no
one pregnant with all of that sex going on, no one over 25 --
reminded me of Logan's Run).

(*end spoiler*)

Final thought: it would have been nice to see the crew dressed up in
local garb!! :->

Bob Gruber
ARPA: Gruber.PA@Xerox.Com
UUCP: ...ucbvax!hplabs!parcvax!gruber
      ...ucbvax!xerox.com!gruber.pa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 20:53:00 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Ferrengi are actually a subtle and advanced race

I've been surprised at all the comments on the net downgrading the
Ferrengi from Star Trek: The New Taste.  Consider the episode in
which they appear:

1) The Enterprise Mk IV is persuing their ship through interstellar
   space.  Even though the odds are trillions to one against it,
   they stop by a Class M planet and orbit it.  With these odds,
   it's impossible to believe that this could have been anything but
   a direct destination of the Ferrengi.

   This planet is on the outer regions of Federation space, but
   closer to Ferrengi space.  It's highly unlikely they would head
   for it without knowing what is there.

2) The Ferrengi send a few blasts at the Enterprise, knowing that an
   initial exchange will be absorbed by shields.

3) When the Enterprise sends terms for surrender, the Ferrengi
   pretend that they are being told to surrender.  In fact, they are
   aware that the problem is caused from the planet below, and
   desire to see the Enterprise response.

4) In spite of a claim to shunning visual contact, and a supposed
   lack of contact with Humans, the Ferrengi have a video broadcast
   system that is capable of special effects and fully compatible
   with Federation broadcast systems.

5) The Ferrengi speak perfect English!
   Obviously they have been studying the human race from some time.
   (One might think a translator was in place in space, but on the
   planet, we see that even casual Ferrengi landing party officers
   speak English fluently.)  (Also, the language is ENGLISH, and not
   some special new Federation tongue.  We've seen that enough in
   the time travel episodes.)  The Ferrengi know a lot more about
   mankind than humans know of them.

6) Normally, when aside comments are made on a starship, the
   computer edits them out of the outward transmissions.  The
   Ferrengi are able to hear Data's comments about "Yankee Traders",
   and pretend not to know the meaning of the phrase, which is odd,
   considering their knowledge of Earth History.  Instead, we must
   assume they were goading Picard into suggesting a deal.

7) On the planet, the Ferrengi act deliberately barbaric, to test
   the humans.  Their T'kon ally (or lackey) appears, and presents
   the test to the humans.  The real test comes not with the weapon,
   but when the T'kon asks,

   "What of the Ferrengi ship?  Should I destroy it?"

   As anybody knows, a test of character that is announced in
   advance is valueless.  The true test of character comes when you
   see how people perform from a position of great power with no
   fear of reprecussion.

   The Humans pass the test by "commanding" the release of the ship.

8) The T'kon is clearly not what he says he is, if a T'kon at all.
   First of all, in spite of a claim of not being activated for
   Aeons, the T'kon speaks English fluently!  He pretends not to
   know of the fall of the T'kon empire and the date, when any
   powerful creature would be able to figure out the passing of the
   years by a quick scan of the sky.  He can read minds and scan
   computer banks, and yet denies the passing of the years or the
   truth of the human statements about the date?

   Note also that the T'kon allows the Ferrengi to whip the humans,
   but does not allow the humans to stun the Ferrengi with phasers.

9) Consider subtle hints of the advanced Ferrengi culture.  Ferrengi
   do not use valuable metals like gold for meaningless adornment.
   Their devotion to function suggests a desire of Logic surpassing
   that on Vulcan.

   Note as well their revulsion at arming women and forcing them to
   wear clothing.  The Ferrengi clearly don't have the nudity tabus
   still found amongst humans of the 24th century.  If Ferrengi
   women have no need for arms, it is clear that the rape gangs so
   feared by Lt. Yar do not exists among the Ferrengi.

Thus the conclusion.  The Ferrengi are a subtle, highly advanced,
logical race.  They have studied humanity for some time using their
advanced technology, but have restricted contact.  In this episode,
they test Mankind by giving Riker the absolute power to destroy
their ship, and checking his response.  Their ruse is so well
planned that it is not uncovered by the Enterprise crew, or the
viewing public.

Perhaps Q is a Ferrengi?

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 13:10:19 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek)
From: <ST801179%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST novelists

mimsy!cvl!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan Faidley)
>   In case you missed it this episode was cowrittren by none other
>that Diane Duane herself, the author of "The Wounded Sky". As was
>posted in the other article, "Where No One Has Gone Before" is
>about improving the warp drive. "The Wounded Sky" is also about
>warp drive technology and another plane of existance as a result of
>using this technology. It would be even nicer if they could get
>some of the other better STAR TREK novelists to write some of the
>episodes.

There aren't any! I'd like to see Ensign Crispin 8-) ,John M. Ford,
and Barbara Hambly (and maybe one or two others) write some, but DED
is definitely the best of them so far.

BTW, _The_Wounded_Sky_ was not about warp drive technology--the
point was clearly made that it was something completely different,
even before we started finding out the results.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 16:19:43 GMT
From: edward@engr.uky.edu (Edward C. Bennett)
Subject: Re: Chief Engineers

rkolker@netxcom.UUCP (rich kolker) writes:
>How's this for a scenerio.  The Enterprise (NCC-1701D) has several
>people with the title "Chief Engineer" and a "Captain of
>Engineering" (that title should sound familiar to watchers of ST
>films.)

"Chief Engineer" is probably just whomever is the ranking engineer
on duty. It will vary from shift to shift. The director of the
entire Engineering division is probably "Captain of Engineering".

This parallels the rank-of-Captain duty-of-Captain discussion so it
seems plausible enough.

Edward C. Bennett
DOMAIN: edward@engr.uky.edu
UUCP: cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward
BITNET: edward%ukecc.uucp@ukma

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #501
Date: 16 Nov 87 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #501
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Nov 87 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #501
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 501

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Jewish SF (9 msgs) &
                            Script Request (2 msgs) &
                            Cyberpunk (2 msgs) &
                            Brazil in Space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 16:13:34 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

ethan@ut-ngp.UUCP (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) writes:
> I don't think Harlan Ellison is Jewish, but he wrote a very funny
> story about a Jew trying to get together a minyan for a funeral
> service before abandoning a doomed planet.  The difficulty is
> compounded by the fact that most of the population has already
> left, and one of the remaining Jews has folded up his tentacles
> and died.  (As you might guess, this particular community is
> descended from converts.)  The ending has a nice halachic twist.

Harlan Ellison is Jewish. The story is "I'm Looking for Kadak" and I
also don't know which collection it's in, but I do know you can get
a tape of Harlan reading it from the H.E. Record Collection. Very
funny story.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Nov 87 16:12:03 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

ethan@ut-ngp.UUCP (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) writes:
> [...] Harlan Ellison [...] wrote a very funny story about a Jew
>trying to get together a minyan for a funeral service before
>abandoning a doomed planet. [...]  [...]  I'm afraid I can't
>remember the title of the collection or the story.

As someone else has already mentioned, the story in question is "I'm
looking for Kadak."  Harlan Ellison read it aloud on Hour-25 KPFK -
Los Angeles several years ago, and that's where I first heard it.
It really needs to be read with a thick Jewish accent -- it's very
funny.  I have it in the (hard to find) collection "Approaching
Oblivion," ISBN: 0-312-94018-1, Bluejay Books, Copyright 1985.
According to the acknowledgements, "I'm Looing for Kadak" originally
appeared in WANDERING STARS (edited by Jack Dann); copyright 1974 by
Harlan Ellison.

It's worth picking up, even if you're not an Ellison fan.  I find
his works too depressing and morbid (though very well written), but
"I'm Looking for Kadak" is very amusing and one of my all-time
favorite short stories.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 01:03:52 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

If you see "Wandering Stars", get it.  If you see "More Wandering
Stars", save yourself some money and borrow it.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 03:29:30 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

From: loeb@bourbaki.mit.edu
>Bob's letter reminds me of something I've been wondering about for
>a long time. In most science fiction, there is no religion.
>Evidently, every one has come to their "senses" in the mean time.
>In all the remaining books I've seen, everybody is Christian. Are
>there any good Jewish SF stories?

Well, this is on the border between Fantasy and SF, but I just read
it, and it is a good read, so...

Check out (Authoress of _I Never Promised you a Rose Garden_) Joanne
Greenberg's short story collection _High Crimes and Misdemeanors_.
It has some wonderful one or two line quotes, and really delightful
stories, all designed around the American Jewish experience.

There are for instance:

Aunt Bessie, who stopped believing in God, electricity, and gravity,
in order.  How do you sweep up when your feet won't stay on the
floor?

Woodrow, Ruel, Marvin, and Isaac, who hijack a few bottles from the
time tax vaults, to help keep a dying Rabbi Jacob alive for the
Monday discussion sessions.  "Your not coming along then? ... Of
course I'm coming.  ... When you leave here, the average level of
intelligence will rise six points.  I wouldn't be able to live in so
lofty an atmosphere."

Miriam, who became a Jewish witch to help her aging Aunts recover
from pathological fear of street crime, and how it backfired on her
when they started using the talismans she provided.

Miss Annie and Miss Jane, adulthood residents of the hospital for
the insane, who take advantage of mental patient rights legislation
to run for mayor and sheriff of the small town with a large
hospital, on a platform of total madness.

Sarah, who extorted a donation for the Pious of Israel Hospital by
threatening to turn the new family on the block into the community
"token Jews" by publicizing their faith.

Runkle, the ambulance driver, whose dream hero Dr. Life thanks him
for never sending him out on a mission on a snowy night.

Ruth, one of the "Others" in high school, who meets, years later,
the most popular girl in class, who's now just a satellite of her
husband, and trying to patch her life back together as a member of a
"Home Bright Family".  How does our plain heroine reveal gently that
_her_ time is spent ripping the doors off of cars to rescue accident
victims, and that she is the speaker of note at a conference of like
employed folks?

Ben, smuggling cocaine in from Mexico, alive only because God loves
fools, who hitches a ride with a Jewish angel.

You have to have been there, but these stories also satisfy another
request for fantasy in a fully realized universe different from
Tolkien's.

This was probably published in hardcover; what I found in the used
book shelves was an Avon Bard paperback, ISBN 0-380-55657-x, (c)
1979.

Enjoy.

Kent

------------------------------

Date: 6 Nov 87 18:26:10 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

loeb@math.mit.edu writes:
> Are there any good Jewish SF stories?

Oy, have I got a book for you!

What a _shandeh_ that nobody should have mentioned TZADDIK OF THE
SEVEN WONDERS by Isidore Haiblum. I read this in a Ballantine
edition, and it is probably out of print. The one problem is that us
_goyim_ suffer from lack of a glossary. Maybe Harlan should expand
his for a reprint?
   And if you are not hard-sf snobs who are convinced that real fans
don't read fantasy, see SWORD OF THE GOLEM by Abraham Rothberg.

Will Linden
...!{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 08:36:23 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Jewish SF

No one has mentioned the stories I first thought of when Jewish SF:
"Tauf Aleph" and "Son of the Morning" by Phyllis Gottlieb.  These
are both in a collection called _Son of the Morning_.  "Son of the
Morning" is also the beginning of _A Judgment of Dragons_, the first
book of the Ungruwarkh series.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 13:11:06 EST
From: wyzansky@nadc.arpa (H. Wyzansky)
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

From: schwartz@gondor.psu.edu (Scott E. Schwartz)
> From: loeb@bourbaki.mit.edu
>> Are there any good Jewish SF stories?
> I once read an anthology edited by Robert Silverberg called (I
> think) "Wandering Stars".  It has a number of good stories by
> Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, etc.  I read this more than 10 years
> ago, by the way.

The anthology "Wandering Stars" was edited by Jack Dann.

Harold Wyzansky
wyzansky@nadc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Sun 15 Nov 87 22:32:25-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jewish SF

Someone a while back asked for Jewish sf stories.

Carol Carr, wife of Terry Carr, wrote one called "Look, You Think
You've Got Troubles" which appeared in Best Stories from ORBIT
Volumes 1-10.  (This reprint anthology does not identify which ORBIT
the stories originally appeared in (or if it does, I can't find
where) but it looks like ORBIT 3 or thereabouts judging by dates.

The story opens:

To tell you the truth, in the old days we would have sat shivah for
the whole week.  My so-called daughter gets married, my own flesh
and blood, and not only he doesn't look Jewish, he's not even human.

It was a fun little story.

Russ

P.S. If you like nonmainstream sf, look for old Orbits in used
bookstores.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 16:50:21 EST
From: Iris Tennenbaum <TENNENBM%KENTVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #492

I have also read "WANDERING STARS" (RE: JEWISH SF) and loved every
page.  I believe it is out of print but should be available in used
book stores.  I don't have info on it here but can get
publisher,etc. if wanted...

Iris T.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 20:52:59 GMT
From: jimmosk@swatsun (Jim Moskowitz)
Subject: "The Monsters Are Due...

...on Maple Street" is the name of a script I read for a 7th grade
English class.  I think it was from a Twilight Zone episode, but I'm
not certain.  Could anyone give me a clue as to where I could find
the script?  (I no longer have my 7th grade English book :-) )

Thank you!

Jim Moskowitz

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 17:02:19 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: 'The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street'

From:   swatsun!jimmosk (Jim Moskowitz)
> "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" is the name of a script I
> read for a 7th grade English class.  I think it was from a
> Twilight Zone episode, but I'm not certain.  Could anyone give me
> a clue as to where I could find the script? (I no longer have my
> 7th grade English book)

"The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" was indeed a script for THE
TWILIGHT ZONE, written by Rod Serling. A "novelization" (not a full
novel, but "storyization" doesn't sound right :-)) of it, written by
Serling himself, can be found in a Bantam paperback collection
called STORIES FROM THE TWILIGHT ZONE, which was still in print as
of a few years ago (it was first published in 1960).

The only place I know of where the script itself can be found is in
the second issue (May 1981) of ROD SERLING'S THE TWILIGHT ZONE
MAGAZINE.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Nov 87 19:15:53 PST
From: gruber.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: SUMMARY: Cyberpunk info

   Hi all.  Here is a summary of Cyberpunk info sent to me by
various people

Bob Gruber
ARPA: Gruber.PA@Xerox.Com
UUCP: ucbvax!hplabs!parcvax!gruber

Q:  What is cyberpunk?
(I didn't ask this question, but two people gave definitions...)
 Some people think that cyberpunk has been around for quite some
time, but recently got a lot of hype because of William Gibson's
NEUROMANCER.  There is an argument as to whether it is a movement,
or just hype.  If it is a movement, at least it has a name now --
names can do a lot for a movement.  (Where would we be if no one had
invented the name Yuppie?)

DEFN 1: Cyberpunk is loosely defined to be a near-future anti-utopia
where the horrors of high-tech have landed.  The movie Bladerunner
and the TV show Max Headroom are visual versions. [from Randall B.
Neff]

DEFN 2: Cyberpunk is the name given by editor Gardener Dozios to a
group of sf writers whose work is centered on a world where the
increasingly rapid advance of technology obliterates right and
wrong, good and evil, human and non-human and several other things.
. . In an interview, Bruce Sterling described the intent of
cyberpunk as: "getting in bed with the technology."  From a literary
viewpoint, the style of writing is visually oriented, the prose
rapidfire and more mature than the garden-variety 'heroes and
monsters' drivel. [from Bill Humphries]

On to the questions I set forth:

1. Did Gibson invent this sub-genre?
   It seems (from all of the info I got on pre-cursors) that he
didn't "invent" cyberpunk.  Gibson and Bruce Sterling were mentioned
by a number of people as the "guiding lights" of the recent
cyberpunk trend, however.

2. What novels are precursors to this sub-genre?  The
following were all suggestions...
   + Alfred Bester: anything, esp:
        THE STARS MY DESTINATION
        THE DEMOLISHED MAN
   + Samuel Delany: NOVA  (people "jacking-in")
        maybe BABEL-17?
   + John Brunner:
        STAND ON ZANZIBAR
        SHOCKWAVE RIDER
        SHEEP LOOK UP
        STONE THAT NEVER CAME DOWN
   + Phillip K. Dick: DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?
   + Harry Harrison: MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM
   + Larry Niven:  (Gil the ARM stories)
   + George Orwell: 1984
   + Vernor Vinge: TRUE NAMES

3. What authors do you think influened its creation?  Lots of
suggestions...

   Alfred Bester, John Brunner, Pat Cadigan, Raymond Chandler,
Samuel Delaney, Harlan Ellison, Rudy Rucker, Lew Shiner, John
Shirley, Norman Spinrad, Bruce Sterling, Vernor Vinge

4. Have other writers tried Gibson's universe yet?

   Michael Swanwick's VACUUM FLOWERS is supposed to be very close to
Gibson's universe.

5. Where else have you seen cyberpunk (movies, etc.)?
   Bladerunner and M-M-MAX were mentioned.

Many people sent "suggested reading"....
   + Pat Cadigan: MIND PLAYERS
   + William Gibson: NEUROMANCER, COUNT ZERO, BURNING CHROME
   + Rudy Rucker: SOFTWARE
   + Lewis Shiner: FRONTERA
   + Norman Spinrad: STREET MAN
   + Bruce Sterling:
        SCHISMATRIX "and other Shaper/Mechanism books"
        editor of: MIRRORSHADES, the CYBERPUNK ANTHOLOGY
   + Michael Swanwick: VACUUM FLOWERS
   + Walter John Williams: HARDWIRED and VOICE OF THE WHIRLWIND

Not quite cyberpunk but follows the idea...
   + Greg Bear: BLOOD MUSIC, EON, and THE FORGE OF GOD
   + Rudy Rucker: WHITE LIGHT and THE 57TH FRANZ KAFKA

P.S.  Laura Crook mentions the following: there is a new magazine,
"Science Fiction EYE", which had a premiere issue dedicated to
cyberpunk (issues, people, books to read, interviews with Sterling
and Gibson, etc.).  It can be ordered at: SF EYE, Box 3105,
Washington DC 20010-0105.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 87 09:39:00 GMT
From: uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

For another side of cyberpunk (more punk than cyber), try K.W.
Jeter's *Dr.  Adder*. Wasn't quite as revolting as I'd been led to
believe, but still kinda sick. The obvious influence there is Philip
K. Dick.

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 16:23:55 GMT
From: miket@brspyr1.brs.com (Mike Trout)
Subject: Brazil in space

Some time ago, I asked for information about science fiction works
that postulate Brazil as the big power in space.  There was
considerable posting on the subject, with quite a bit of
disagreement about which author "really" first came up with the idea
of Brazil in space.  I also got some e-mail on the subject.  For
those that still care, I've summarized the list.  The following is a
list of all material that was e-mailed to me as "Brazil in space"
literature.  Errors and such will probably exist; this is not my
field.  Obviously, "Brazil in space" is in some danger of becoming a
science fiction cliche.

Poul Anderson
   _Avatar_
   various stories involving "Nick van Rijn"
   various stories involving the "Polseotechnic League"

Ben Bova
   _Privateers_

L. Sprague deCamp
   various novels and short stories involving "Viagens
   Interplanetarias"

Frederick Pohl
   _Gateway_
   various sequels to _Gateway_

Michael Trout
BRS Information Technologies
1200 Rt. 7
Latham, N.Y. 12110
(518) 783-1161
miket@brspyr1
brspyr1!miket

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #502
Date: 16 Nov 87 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #502
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Nov 87 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #502
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 502

Today's Topics:

         Films - The Hidden (2 msgs) & La Jetee (6 msgs) &
                 Solaris (2 msgs) & Laserblast (3 msgs) &
                 The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs) &
                 Title Request & An Answer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 19:15:25 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: The Hidden & Hal Clement

Was anybody else struck by the similarity of the recent movie The
Hidden to the Hal Clement story Needle?  There are dissimilarities,
but the common ground is striking: two body-inhabiting physically
repulsive alien creatures crash-land on earth (in the movie the
crash is only implied), and the good-guy alien starts a search for
the bad-guy alien, but can only succeed in destroying the bad guy
while the bad guy is attempting to transfer between bodies, and the
use of fire in effecting the transfer itself.

Granted, there are dissimilarities, such as the exact mode of body
entry, the fact that the host can survive in Needle and not in The
Hidden, the reason for waiting for an attempted transfer.  But I was
surprised to see no mention of Needle in the credits for this
film... it seemed so obviously inspired by Needle despite the
equally obvious adaptation to an action-adventure orientation from
the usual Clement contemplative style.

Does anybody know any details here?  Does Hal Clement merely lack a
killer lawyer, or what?

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 14:07:52 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: THE HIDDEN

                             THE HIDDEN
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     Intentionally or not, THE HIDDEN has a lot of ideas in common
with Hal Clement's NEEDLE.  It concerns an alien criminal and an
alien policeman who has chased him to Earth.  Each gets around by
finding a human to invade and control.  The criminal seems to have
quickly acquired a taste for fast cars and bad music and he's
willing to kill to get either.  The script calls for a lot of filler
of some very standard types: car chases and gun battles.  But
basically it is a good story and not a bad film.  Rate it a +1 on
the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 14:06:47 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: LA JETEE

                              LA JETEE
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

     This 25-minute science fiction film was shown at the Cinema
Village in New York with SOLARIS and packs about the same
impact--which isn't to say a whole lot--in about one-sixth the
screen time.  It is a science fiction story told almost entirely by
photographs.  I say "almost" because one scene has noticeable
movement.  The main character is a man in a post-nuclear war future
who is haunted by an incident he witnessed as a small boy but has
never understood.  In the post-war future, he is the involuntary
guinea pig of a time-travel experiment that allows him to go back
and take a second look at the remembered incident.  For a 25-minute
film, LA JETEE has a high idea content and packs quite a wallop.  It
only looks better seen with the ponderous SOLARIS.  Rate it a +1 on
the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 21:57:11 GMT
From: mthome@poincare.bbn.com (Michael Thome)
Subject: Re: LA JETEE

leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (Mark R. Leeper) writes:
> ... For a 25-minute film, LA JETEE has a high idea content and
>packs quite a wallop.  It only looks better seen with the ponderous
>SOLARIS.  Rate it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Actually, I'd rate it higher (and I'm still trying to see Solaris),
but...  One of my old film professors is convinced that The
Terminator is a remake of La Jetee.  There are plenty of arguments
for this - the love story, the time loops, and even some of the
filming (especially notice the scene where The Terminator becomes
sequences of stills followed by a fade out... *very* similar to the
scene mentioned above in La Jetee where the images move.  VERY
striking scenes).  Anyway, I'll not give my opinion of the film's
rating, except that if you're a fan of The Terminator, Harlan
Ellison's Outer Limits episode (something like "The Glass Hand"), or
other similar films, it's definitely worth seeing.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 14:52:27 GMT
From: bellcore!ulysses!mhuxa!bwr@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Reisman)
Subject: Re: LA JETEE

La Jetee is also "old", I don't know the copyright, perhaps Mark
will enlighten us, but I'm sure that I first saw this sf short in
the early '70s.  Though it's been awhile, I remember being impressed
with the film.  Stylisticly, it's quite similar to a slide show.
I'd have to concur with Mark's +1 rating (scale -4 to +4), based on
my recollections - it's been several years since I last saw it...

Bruce W. Reisman
AT&T Bell Laboratories
200 Laurel Avenue   MT 3G-124
Middletown, NJ   07748
201/957-6533
ihnp4!{alice|attunix|mhuxa|mtfmi|whutt}!bwr

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 21:14:03 GMT
From: asbed@acrux.usc.edu (Asbed Bedrossian)
Subject: Re: LA JETEE

>Actually, I'd rate it higher (and I'm still trying to see Solaris),
>but...  One of my old film professors is convinced that The
>Terminator is a remake of La Jetee.  There are plenty of arguments
>for this - the love story, the time loops, and even some of the
>filming (especially notice the scene where The Terminator becomes
>sequences of stills followed by a fade out... *very* similar to the
>scene mentioned above in La Jetee where the images move.  VERY
>striking scenes).  Anyway, I'll not give my opinion of the film's
>rating, except that if you're a fan of The Terminator, Harlan
>Ellison's Outer Limits episode (something like "The Glass Hand"),
>or other similar films, it's definitely worth seeing.

I've seen "La Jetee" a few times. I would also rate this higher than
Mark L.  I was stricken by the similarity in the flow of events in
La Jetee and The Terminator. It seem like the time-loop/romance bit
strikes a nerve in me.  Which scene are you alluding to in The
Terminator that becomes a series of stills? I don't remember this.
The only stills I remember are the pictures of Sarah Conner. The
photo that burns, that is later (in the film) shot by a mexican
boy...

Asbed Bedrossian
University Computing Services
U of Southern California
ARPA: asbed@oberon.usc.edu
BITNET: asbed@uscvaxq
UUCP: {sdcrdcf, cit-vax}!oberon!asbed
PHONE: (213) 743-4266

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 16:09:53 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: LA JETEE

From:   mhuxa!bwr       (Bruce W. Reisman)
> La Jetee is also "old", I don't know the copyright, perhaps Mark
> will enlighten us, but I'm sure that I first saw this sf short in
> the early '70s.

It was made in 1963.

> Though it's been awhile, I remember being impressed with the film.
> Stylisticly, it's quite similar to a slide show.  I'd have to
> concur with Mark's +1 rating (scale -4 to +4), based on my
> recollections - it's been several years since I last saw it...

I was pretty much in the same boat as you. I'd seen the film for the
first time somewhere around 1970 and remember being impressed by it
then. I've wanted to see it again ever since, but never managed to
catch it (it isn't exactly the kind of film you see on the local tv
stations' movie slots).

I finally saw it again (and taped it!) a couple of months ago when
the Bravo cable channel was showing a handful of Chris Marker's
films (including an excellent documentary on the making of
Kurasowa's RAN). I'm still impressed with the film. On Mark's scale,
I would rate it a +3.

Some many moons ago, in sf-lovers, I posted a list of some of my
favorite sf films (many of them pretty obscure), and one of them was
LA JETEE, though I made the caveat that I hadn't seen it in over 15
years. There were a couple of others that I likewise hadn't seen in
as long a time. One of them, Godard's ALPHAVILLE, was coincidentally
shown on Bravo the same month that LA JETEE was. ALPHAVILLE didn't
make quite as much sense to me when I first saw it, but I recalled
being intrigued enough that I wanted to see it again. I understood
it better this time around, but while it's not bad, it wasn't as
good as I'd hoped. ALPHAVILLE I'd rate at 0 to +1 on the Leeper
scale.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 03:14:38 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: LA JETEE

bwr@mhuxa.UUCP (Bruce Reisman) writes:
> La Jetee is also "old", I don't know the copyright, perhaps Mark
> will enlighten us, but I'm sure that I first saw this sf short in
> the early '70s.

Sorry, this was an oversight.  It was made in 1962.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 14:04:57 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: SOLARIS (the film)

                              SOLARIS
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

      SOLARIS is one of those films I'd wanted to see for years.  I
have heard claims that this Soviet film is was of the great science
fiction films of all time.  It is, after all, based on a novel by
Stanislaw Lem, a Polish science fiction writer, who is considered to
be very good and very artistic.  Well, under it all, SOLARIS has a
rather nice concept.  The problem is that there is so much and so
little it is under.  The so much is about 150 minutes; the so little
is what is happening in the story.  The plot could have been done in
a half-hour.  It is not particularly original.  On the planet
Solaris, a human base with 80 people has been almost entirely wiped
out by an enigmatic alien force that creates three-dimensional
versions of images it finds in the humans' minds.  In the great
sentient ocean of Solaris, as in the film, there is a great deal
happening beneath the surface, but exactly what remains a mystery.
This film is for the very patient only.  Rate it a 0 on the -4 to +4
scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 23:41:08 GMT
From: garth@swatsun (Garth Snyder)
Subject: Re: SOLARIS (the film)

I read the original book _Solaris_ by Stanislaw Lem this last
summer, and though it was truly outstanding.  I can understand how
it might be hard to make a good movie out of it, but I'd definitely
reccommend the book to anyone who'se interested.  One of Lem's best.

Garth Snyder
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore, PA 19081
UUCP: {seismo!bpa,rutgers!liberty}!swatsun!garth
      {hao,nbires}!boulder!garth
ARPA: garth@boulder.colorado.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 87  16:14:53 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Laserblast

Does anyone else remember the movie Laserblast that came out several
years ago? It was about a humanoid alien who landed on Earth and was
being pursued by Reptiloids for stealing a laser weapon. He was
caught and disintegrated, but the gun was left behind and found by a
teenager in the desert. He discovered that the necklace was the
gun's power source and, unfortunately, the more it was used the more
it caused a tumor to grow in his chest and destroy his mind. At the
end he went on a rampage and used the gun to blow up some fellow
high schoolers, but he was killed when the Reptiloid commander order
the two others to return to Earth and stop him. I quite liked it.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 23:52:49 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Laserblast

From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
> Does anyone else remember the movie Laserblast that came out
> several years ago?

Yeah.  Interesting film.  Good aliens (gumby animation, but fun).
The film "starred" Roddy McDowell.  Apparently they didn't have much
money to pay him--he was only in the film for 15 minutes.  I saw it
at a con, I don't know if it's out on videotape or not.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 87 05:23:23 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Laserblast

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
> From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>> Does anyone else remember the movie Laserblast that came out
>> several years ago?
>Yeah.  Interesting film.  Good aliens (gumby animation, but fun).
>The film "starred" Roddy McDowell.  Apparently they didn't have
>much money to pay him--he was only in the film for 15 minutes.  I
>saw it at a con, i don't know if it's out on videotape or not.

From what I have heard, this picture was made because John Dykstra,
the original special effects Guru with ILM, was signed on with
somebody for more than one film.

"Laserblast" came out right after Star Wars became a hit, and it was
publicized that the FX were by Dykstra.  I suspect that the whole
point of the film was to try to make some extra dough for somebody,
by making a cheap film to which they could attach Dykstra's good
(and Star Wars-connected) name.

malc@tahoe.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 87  12:40:31 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: The Lathe Of Heaven

I saw The Lathe Of Heaven on our PBS station in Boston, Mass years
before I ever read any of Ursula LeGuin's books. The filming was
excellent, the dialogue intriguing, and the story ingenious. I have
not yet read the book.  I have read Left Hand Of Darkness and The
Dispossesd, and unfortunately found them very dry and drawn-out,
although the creation of an entire alien culture is something LeGuin
is very good at.

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
Umass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
nutto%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
nutto%umass.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 87 19:43 EDT
From: Fegman%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven

>>The movie was, in fact, made by the Dallas P.B.S. affiliate.  It
>>was even shot in Dallas.
>
>If that's the same _Lathe_ that I saw, parts of it were shot in
>Portland, OR (Ms. LeGuin's stomping grounds). That futuristic
>building the protagonist wanders around is the Portland General
>Electric edifice, in whose restaurant I used to toil. That's one
>reason the film looks grey so often: tough to get many sunny days
>when you shoot in Puddle City.

Very true.  I'm sorry.  I shouldn't have said that ALL of the film
was shot in Dallas just that a large portion was.  There are
frequent shots of the downtown area especially around Reunion Tower
and many of the interiors were done locally as well.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 14:47:12 GMT
From: pyrnj!syntrex!roytar@RUTGERS.EDU (Roy Tarantino)
Subject: Can you Identify this film?

Ok flick freaks, it is an English film from the 60's set in the
English countryside.  Alan Bates is the wounded, fleeing criminal
Hiding out in a barn.  When a group of children find him asleep,
they wake him and ask him his name.  Dazed, he replies "Jesus
Christ!".  And that's who they think he is for the rest of the film.
The children bring him food and try to fix his wounds.  When the
evil adults of the village discover the children try to protect him.

Can anybody tell me the title?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 03:11:15 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Can you Identify this film?

roytar@syntrex.uucp (Roy Tarantino) writes:
> Ok flick freaks, it is an English film from the 60's set in the
> English countryside.  Alan Bates is the wounded, fleeing criminal
> Hiding out in a barn.  When a group of children find him asleep,
> they wake him and ask him his name.  Dazed, he replies "Jesus
> Christ!".

Only vaguely remember it playing on the ABC Sunday Night Movie.
WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND (1962) with Hayley Mills and Bates.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #503
Date: 16 Nov 87 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #503
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Nov 87 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #503
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 16 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 503

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Gibson (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 04:53:38 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Neuromancer

I strongly disagree with the fawning comments uttered here in
support of _Neuromancer_.  I'll admit that Gibson has a wealth of
ideas, and a sophisticated style, but it's gold-plated turds to me.

I find the world of _Neuromancer_ vicious and depraved and Gibson's
implicit endorsement of it pretty sick.  Apologists for it can hold
forth all night about how hip and modern it all is, but that's not
what I read for.  I don't find his plotting convincing, because his
characters mostly get batted around like hockey pucks by big forces
out of their control.  Some readers may find that this reinforces
their own worldview, but as a diehard romanticist I think it sucks.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 18:58:40 GMT
From: mjlarsen@phoenix.princeton.edu (Michael J. Larsen)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>I find the world of _Neuromancer_ vicious and depraved and Gibson's
>implicit endorsement of it pretty sick.

The world of _Neuromancer_ is vicious and depraved all right.  But
what is this about Gibson's implicit endorsement of it?  Are we
reading the same book?

Michael Larsen

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 05:54:56 GMT
From: g-humphr@gumby.wisc.edu (Bill Humphries)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer

macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) writes:
>I find the world of _Neuromancer_ vicious and depraved and Gibson's
>implicit endorsement of it pretty sick.  Apologists for it can hold
>forth all night about how hip and modern it all is, but that's not
>what I read for.  I don't find his plotting convincing, because his
>characters mostly get batted around like hockey pucks by big forces
>out of their control.  Some readers may find that this reinforces
>their own worldview, but as a diehard romanticist I think it sucks.


As a diehard romanticist you have a right to your opinions.
However, they don't wash critically.  Before we get into a flame war
with the post-modernist fans vs. everyone else it's best said that
_Neuromancer_ was a book written by someone originally from outside
the genre.  Keep that in mind when you critizize it.  But I have to
take you to task on a few things: 1) "I find the world of
_Neuromancer_ vicious and depraved and Gibson's endorsement of it
pretty sick."  _Neuromancer's_ world is just an extrapolation of our
sick and depraved world.  The impact of technological growth
intensifies the grimy feel of it.  But the setting of the novel is
not something to be attacked.  Especially one as well developed as
Gibson's.  After all, I find the world developed in Heinlein's
_Starship Troopers_ to be depraved.  Military service as a
prerequisite for suffrage is something I despise.  But in itself, it
is nothing to attack a book over.  I suggest that you read Chuq
Rospatch's editorial in the Fall issue of "Otherrealms" (reachable
on the net as rec.mag.otherrealms) on the matter of linking a writer
with a distasteful or immoral ideaology in a book.  2) "I don't find
his plotting convincing, because his characters mostly get batted
around like hockey pucks by big forces out of thier control."  Big
forces and thier control over ordinary people is one of the main
themes of the book.  However, two of the main forces, the two AI's,
are characters.  Not human, but characters nontheless.  I can
understand your horror of the idea.  Most of us like to think of
ourselves as "Capable Men"; in control of our destinies.  But Gibson
created a scenario where men don't have control and the ones who do
aren't really human anymore (ie the Tessier-Ashpool family and those
annoying AI's).  I would agree (and Bill Gibson would probably agree
too) that _Neuromancer_ has been lavished with praise.  But don't
attack the writer over that matter.  Go after the other critics.
[insert silly USENET grin].  I was glad to run into the book.  A
friend lent me it before I saw all the hype about it.  It got me
interested in SF again.  A final suggestion: If you want a slightly
more sugary book with cops'n computers.  Try Vernor Vinge's novella
_True Names_.  Baen Books recently re-released it with a couple of
other stories of his.  It's lighthearted and fun.  Unfortunately, as
Vinge admits in the afterword.  He should have taken the ideas
further.  That could be the heart of _Neuromancer_ and it's ilk.
The writers took some of the classic themes of SF and ran with them
past the conventional point.  The territory entered is sometimes
unpleasant.  But a book isn't just supposed to be a pleasant stroll
into Greyhawk to slay a dragon and drink an ale.

Bill Humphries
g-humphr@gumby.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Nov 87 14:59:58-CST
From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: response to review of Gibson

Tim Iverson responds to A.G.'s Gibson discussion:
>>These books are not light reading.  It is good that Gibson's
>>sentences are loaded, and that each sentence is essential and not
>>superfluous.  However, sentences and nice imagery does not make a
>>good story.  If story telling is the aim of a book, then Gibson
>>fails in that area.
>
>A few paragraphs ago you said that Gibson puts you inside the very
>lives of the fully "flesh and blood" characters.  Now you say he
>can't tell a story.  These are one and the same.  Hypocrite.

I think this is a pretty arrogant response.  It is not at all clear
to me that "putting you inside the very lives of fully 'flesh and
blood' characters" is "one and the same" with telling a story.  At
best it is a necessary condition for telling a story (though one
could debate that.)  To tell a story, you also need a plot,
background, setting, imagery, theme, good writing...  (One could
argue that experimental stories only need good writing.)  Tim sounds
so angry at having Gibson maligned that he eagerly seeks to
discredit A.G.'s arguments with fallacious ones of his own.  I know
I have read stories with well- developed characters which
nonetheless failed as STORIES, however vividly I identified with the
characters.  There is a difference between a character study and a
story.

A.G.'s review did seem to miss out on a lot of the good aspects of
Neuromancer (haven't read Count Zero but heard it's not as good from
other sources), but it didn't seem to deserve such an unreasoned and
nasty retort.  I enjoyed Neuromancer, and certainly thought it had
no lack of story and action, but I thought the storytelling
abilities trailed off at the end: some of the descriptions while at
the colony became confused to me -- not just a frantic, confused
EFFECT that the characters would feel (as one poster mentioned), but
literally confusing, as in confused WRITING.  Probably it would all
make sense upon rereading it, but the rest of the story was
perfectly clear to me, even while managing the hectic confused FEEL.

Russ
P.S. to the folks who said Neuromancer was too hard to read:
Don't get Samuel Delany's Dhalgren!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 87 10:35 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: Gibson

Since Gibson's my favorite author, I have to put in my 2 cents.

First of all, I do sympathize with the folks that couldn't follow
the plot in _Count Zero_, less so with those who couldn't follow
_Neuromancer_.  The plot in _Count Zero_ had me pretty confused at
times, too. It helps a little if you know a bit about voodoo (e.g.,
the concept of being "ridden" and what the different loa represent)
and I would say it's essential that you have already read
_Neuromancer_.  I read CZ before I read _Neuromancer_, retained
almost nothing, and reread it again after.  Much better second time
around.  I disagree strongly, however, with those who say that
nothing happened in CZ.  If that's what you think, then you were
napping.  Read on...

***** POSSIBLE SPOILER *****

Here's where I stick my chin out.  The "plot" of CZ was the
continued development of "something weird" in cyberspace.  In
_Neuromancer_ it was Wintermute/Neuromancer, in CZ it was the
loa...and it's become even less clear what it is because in CZ one
of the loa was (sort of) human.  In any case, that's what I think
both books are really about, and since CZ has a big fat sequel hook,
I'm willing to bet the story will continue.

***** END SPOILER *****

I can see where some people would find Gibson to be really hard to
follow.  He does introduce all these terms (deck, ice, vat-grown,
etc.) without explaining them right off...in fact, he doesn't ever
really EXPLAIN anything.  You pick up on what the terms mean through
little descriptive asides.  Personally, that's how I like to be
introduced to a world.  It's sort of like walking around in a
strange city on your own, as opposed to taking a guided tour.  The
guided tour will ensure that you find out about the things that the
guided tour considers important, but I find stumbling across things
on my own to be much more enjoyable.

Anyway...a recommendation.  I find his stuff to be rich without
being dense (sounds like I'm talking about wine.  "It's a naive
domestic Burgundy..."). For anyone who has been reading these
postings and thinks they might like to try Gibson, but has been
scared by the complaints that his stuff is confusing and
slow-moving, I STRONGLY recommend that you start with one of his
short stories.
 A very good choice (and a sentimental favorite--it was my first)
would be the short story "New Rose Hotel" in _Burning Chrome_.  _BC_
is now out in paperback and should be easy to find.  The story also
appeared in a collection edited by (I think?) Pournelle.  This is a
truly beautiful story, and it will give you a good feeling for
Gibson's imagery and will introduce you to his world.

Now, a few questions of my own:

1.  What does "GmbH" stand for and where does it come from?  Is this
    term in use anywhere today?
2.  Who does the cover art?
3.  Does anyone have any dates to attach to the events in these
    books?

Mary Malmros
Smith College
MANAGER@SMITH.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 18:57:53 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!austin@RUTGERS.EDU (Austin Yeats)
Subject: Re: Gibson (breakup of the AIs)

***** WARNING: Massive Spoilers Follow *****

Mary Malmros writes:
> The "plot" of CZ was the continued development of "something
>weird" in cyberspace.  In _Neuromancer_ it was
>Wintermute/Neuromancer, in CZ it was the loa...

Wintermute/Neuromancer was the initial break up of the illegal AI of
the Tessier-Ashpools. At the end of Neuromancer, This (these) were
fragmented into what later became the loas (remember the end of CZ
where what was left of Wintermute describes his lesser selves?).
Loas, in the traditional "Voodoo" sense are powers humans can make
"deals" with for their own protection/advancement.

The "human" loa was the young daughter of the defecting scientist in
CZ who had been implanted with a experimental "biosoft" (by her
father), giving her loa like powers.

>and since CZ has a big fat sequel hook, I'm willing to bet the
>story will continue.>

Indeed it will. Mona Lisa Overdrive is due out early next year.

BTW, a more traditional treatment of loas and "Voodoo" is given in
Blaylock's new book On Stranger Tides.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 09:56:30 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!ers!nmm@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil McCulloch)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer and (as a side note) Dhalgren

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
> Dhalgren and Neuromancer are another two of the very best books I
> have ever read. Both are hard to read, though I found myself more
> easily lost in Neuromancer (just a subjective viewpoint). Neither
> insults the reader's intelligence by spelling out the themes/main
> ideas/etc. If you don't pay attention, you will get lost. That's
> one of the things that makes them so enjoyable -- they are rich in
> lots of areas.

I take it you meant to say that these were two of the books you most
enjoyed......?

Neuromancer suffers from the usual SF writers' problem. The first
third of the book is rich in detail, subtlety and substance and it
goes down from there. There are reasonable reasons for this but it
is a fundamental flaw when it comes to a critique.

Dhalgren also suffers from this problem. Everything comes at a rush
at the end. I thought it was badly paced, but that might have simply
been my preference. However, the book was undoubtedly too long,
which may explain the pacing problems. I got to the end of it and
said, "so what". Then I remember that I'd read the thing all the way
through.....

neil

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 87 06:57:41 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlo.hp.com (Mark F. Cook)
Subject: Re: Gibson

>Now, a few questions of my own:
>1.  What does "GmbH" stand for and where does it come from?  Is
>    this term in use anywhere today?
>2.  Who does the cover art?
>3.  Does anyone have any dates to attach to the events in these
>    books?

    Well, I can't answer questions 2 or 3, but "GmbH" is an
abbreviation for 'Gesellschaft mit beschrankter Haftung' (there
should be an umlaut over the letter 'a' in 'beschrankter') and it
means 'Limited Liability Company' (or the equivalent) in German.
Under German law, it must follow the legal name of any closed
corporation residing in, or doing business in Germany.  In the
United Kingdom or Canada, you would see '<coporation name> Ltd.'
used for pretty much the same purpose.
    And yes, it's used a lot.

Mark F. Cook
Technical Support
Hewlett-Packard
Corvallis Workstation OperationDiv.
1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 87 20:10:50 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!scirtp!george@RUTGERS.EDU (Geo. R. Greene, Jr.)
Subject: Re: Gibson's Cyberpunk Universe

> There was quite a bit of hoo-hah (or some, at least) on the net
> awhile ago about "Software," enough so that I went ahead and
> purchased it.  I read it last week, and I fail to see what the
> hoo-hah was all about.  It's an ok story, no question, but only
> ok.  I never cared about the characters, the issues the book
> raised were not followed through on, and it was a *shallow* book.

The book is not even REMOTELY shallow AT ALL.  The basic premise is
arguably THE DEEPEST POSSIBLE premise that ANY book can have.  The
human characters may be shallow but that is just for effect.  The
question is about whether the Boppers have Souls.  How anyone could
get any deeper than that I can't imagine.  Even if you take the
human creator's first-hand knowledge that the One that they think is
God cannot possibly be God, that goes nowhere toward invalidating
their own quest.  Furthermore, the complaint that the issues are not
followed through on is ENTIRELY bogus because there are two other
books in the trilogy.  They are called Wetware and Hardware.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 18-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #504
Date: 18 Nov 87 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #504
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 87 0930-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #504
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Nov 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 504

Today's Topics:

                  Books - Brust (7 msgs) & Card &
                          Dickson (3 msgs) &
                          Schmitz & Spinrad (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: TUE NOV 10, 1987 10.04.24 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Brust

Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no> writes :
> I just read a book by a (to me) completely unknown author by the
> name of Stephen Brust. The title escapes me (I'm at work, my book
> is at home), but I think it was something like "A Dragon in
> Paradise".  The cover was terrible : Busty Blonde riding a dragon,
> some kind of weapon in her hand.  I would never have touched the
> book if it hadn't been recommended by a friend.

  To reign in Hell is the name of the book.  Real good book.
Strangely enough, the art work wasn't, in my opinion anyway, up to
par with that of his other books.  The thing that attracted me to
his other books in the first place was the cover artistry.  The
"Busty Blonde" does, however, perk up my bookshelf :^)

And hplabs!sun!xanth!kent@RUTGERS.EDU (Kent Paul Dolan) writes :

>   I'm sure you've made Steve very happy, as he occasionally joins
> us here on USENet.

  I didn't know Steve was on the net.  If you are reading this, any
sign of sequels for Brokedown or Teckla?  Or is the Taltos series
the sequel for the Brokedown book?

> He has written several other well-received novels, of which
> Jehrig, Yendle a Yendle and Tekla (all probably misspelled!)  come
> to mind at once.  These all tell the story of a young man working
> his way up in a particularly nasty world as an assassin.  It
> doesn't help that he is burdened with scruples!

*** SPOILER ***
  Yes, they are spelled wrong.  If I may, Jehreg, Yendi, and Teckla.
I personally found them all to be quite good.  Of the three, Teckla
was the slowest, but this was due only to the fact that Vlad got
himself married and mellowed a bit compared to the first two books.
Still, for a new writer, these were probably the best books I've
read in quite some time.
*** End SPOILER ***

     Overall, I think Brust has got to be one of the better writers
currently publishing.  True, he has really only dealt with one type
of theme, but it hasn't yet begun to travel down the paths towards
oblivion.  I'm looking for another Taltos book.  Should be
interesting to see what gets done now that things are settling down
for Vlad.  (How settled down can things get for a hired assassin :^)

Mitchel Ludwig
Box 72 Lehigh Univ.
Beth, Pa.  18015
215-758-1381
BITnet: MFL1@Lehigh.bitnet
INTnet: Kmfludw@vax1.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 15:09:11 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: Brust

KMFLUDW@VAX1.CC.LEHIGH.EDU writes:
>   I didn't know Brust was on the net.  If you is out there, any
> chance of a sequel to Brokedown?  Or were the Taltos books a set
> of sequels???

This has been pounded around before...rumor has it that _Brokedown
Palace_ and the Taltos series will tie together by something
involving Devera (from _BP_) and Cawti (remember that bit about her
not having a patronymic?).

> All in all, for a relatively new writer, the Taltos books were
> consistently the best three I've read.  The last of them, Teckla,
> was the slowest of the three, but that was *** SPOILER *** only
> becase Vlad got himself married and mellowed a bit compared to the
> first two books.  *** end spoiler ***

This has also been pounded around--some people feel that it was
slower because it wasn't written as light entertainment but as
"serious fantasy" (someone mentioned Brust "maturing as a writer"
with _Teckla_ and with _BP_, whereas the first two Taltos books
weren't really serious).  I thought it was interesting, but I must
confess that I went into it expecting another _Jhereg_ or _Yendi_,
and though I wasn't really disappointed with _Teckla_, I had the
feeling of something missing.  But that's just a matter of taste.
_BP_ I found harder to read, but interesting.

nj
...!{pur-ee, rutgers, uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 15:24:02 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: Brust

davel@whuts.UUCP (LOEWENSTERN) writes:
> Actually, it's Jhereg. I believe Brust makes a point about it
> being pronounced juh-HEH-reg.

Actually, I believe the pronunciation given at the beginning of
_Jhereg_ gives it as "jhuh-REG".

Oh, and by the way, ever notice in Teckla where Vlad's Noish-pa is
talking to Cawti about her stubbornness?  He says something to the
effect of, "I know girls here in Faerie are different from those
back home..."  I never noticed it before, but since someone remarked
on the possibility of a Taltos series/_Brokedown Palace_ tie-in, it
might bear mentioning.

nj
...!{pur-ee, rutgers, uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 16:35:43 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Brust

From:   whuts!davel     (David Loewenstern)

> Actually, it's Jhereg. I believe Brust makes a point about it
> being pronounced juh-HEH-reg.

That's news to me. When and where did he make that point? Whenever
I've talked with him or other members of his writing group, the
pronunciation has always been "zher-regg'".

From:   ndmath!nj

> ...rumor has it that _Brokedown Palace_ and the Taltos series will
> tie together by something involving Devera (from _BP_) and Cawti
> (remember that bit about her not having a patronymic?).

Ah, am I missing something?  It was obvious to me from reading BP
that the land of Faerie that Prince Whatisname went to was Dragaera
from the Taltos books. If nothing else, there was a mention at one
point of one of the Dragaeran critters (was it a teckla?) flying
overhead.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 87 18:09:56 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: Brust

boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> That's news to me. When and where did he make that point? Whenever
> I've talked with him or other members of his writing group, the
> pronunciation has always been "zher-regg'".

Yes it is, at least from the Pronunciation Guide in _Jhereg_.

>From:  ndmath!nj
>> ...rumor has it that _Brokedown Palace_ and the Taltos series
>> will tie together by something involving Devera (from _BP_) and
>> Cawti (remember that bit about her not having a patronymic?).
>
> Ah, am I missing something?  It was obvious to me from reading BP
> that the land of Faerie that Prince Whatisname went to was
> Dragaera from the Taltos books.

I guess it was I who missed it.  I had really gone into _BP_ not
expecting another VT book, and came out that way, so I didn't really
consider the tie-in until someone mentioned it.  The style is quite
different (although _Teckla_ is closer to _BP_ than the other two
are in terms of style).

> If nothing else, there was a mention at one point of one of the
> Dragaeran critters (was it a teckla?) flying overhead.

I assumed that these were Hungarian animals, and that Brust was just
fond of using them in his books.  Not really a smart assumption, I
guess, since they would imply a tie-in to anyone who was really
thinking straight.

It did briefly pass through my mind that there might be some kind of
relationship between _BP_ and the series, but for some reason (which
I thought was good at the time) I said to myself, "Naaah, it
couldn't."  Of course, I don't remember what the reason was.

nj
...!{pur-ee, rutgers, uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 19:17:19 GMT
From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
Subject: Tying 'Brokedown Palace' to 'Jhereg'

I think that Devera is the tie-in between these stories.  I have
never read 'Brokedown Palace', mainly because I couldn't find it
whenever I went back to get it.

I do remember in 'Yendi' when Aliera was trying to revive Vlad,
after The Dagger & The Sword of The Jhereg (Cawti & the girl who
ends up a Dragonlord; yeah I know, her name slips from my brain)
tried to assassinate him, and he started dreaming.  In his dream, a
little girl talked to him, asking him to come back, that her mommy
was worried about him.  She called him Uncle Vlad, and said her name
was Devera, but not to tell Aliera (mom) because she isn't expected
yet....

Just what is Devera's role in 'Brokedown Palace' ?  Email is
fine....I don't mind spoilers, but others could....

Joanne Brooks
U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr
Consulting Staff
BITNET: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET
Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 19:31:26 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re: Tying 'Brokedown Palace' to 'Jhereg'

Oops.

You're exactly right; Devera is a character in _BP_.  It's just that
the length of time between the time I read _Jhereg_/_Yendi_ and _BP_
(and the length of time between the time I read _BP_ and reread
_J_/_Y_) was so great that I forgot the name of the girl in the
dream was Devera.

nj
...!{pur-ee, rutgers, uunet}!iuvax!ndmath!nj
...!ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 19:12:04 GMT
From: paulc@hplsdrb.hp.com (Paul Carroll)
Subject: Re: New OS Card

Well, since you brought up OS Card's new book 'WYRMS'...

For those who have read the first chapter of the book, I seem to
remember reading this before.  I'm not going to try for specifics,
due to spoiling it for someone else, but does anyone know if
portions of this book have been previously published?

Anyway, I recommend this book highly, along with most of Card's
novels.

Paul Carroll
Hewlett-Packard
Logic System Division

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 87 12:06 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Dorsai!

Yet another question from me (if I seem to be asking a lot of
questions it's only because I feel like I am in SF-heaven ever since
having discovered SF- LOVERS. And anyway, you guys keep answering
them...)

Given the fact that I like almost everything I have read by Gordon
R. Dickson.  Given the fact that I have read only the first book in
his Dorsai-series.  Given the fact that I did not like it at all
(unrealistic, unsympathetic characters, and I don't really like war
stories (though I like Starship Trooper and am probably the only
person other than R.A.H. himself who does))

Given these facts: will I like any other books in the series, and if
yes which ones ?

I am *not* trying to start a good/bad discussion, I just want to
know from people who have read them all if I can skip the rest if I
didn't even like the first one.

Again, looking forward to your replies,

Leo Breebaart
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet
Univ. of Leiden
The Netherlands

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 17:01:03 GMT
From: harvard!bbn!ima!interlan!deem@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Deem)
Subject: Re: Dorsai!

BREEBAAR@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>Given these facts: will I like any other books in the series, and
>if yes which ones ?

It has been years since I last read any Dorsai books.  When I read
my first ones, I was in highschool and my taste in SF had not really
matured, but I enjoyed them very much.  The last Dorsai book I read
(when I was in college, after I had come to love such masters as
Herbert and Delaney) was _The_Final_Encyclopedia_ which demonstarted
that the Dorsai series (really the child (sp?) cycle) was an
intricate and complicted epic approaching that of Dune.

To answer your question: _The_Final_Encyclopedia_ draws heavily on
subtlies in the preceeding books (which may or may not be good in
and of them selvs) but, in my opinion, makes reading them worth
while.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 20:26:56 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Re: Dorsai!

From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>Given these facts: will I like any other books in the series, and
>if yes which ones ?

Well. . . depends on which one you read.  But I'd unequivocally
recommend Soldier, Ask Not and The Final Encyclopedia which deal
with some of the core themes of the Childe Cycle.  E-mail me and
I'll try to summarize the complete series, and the order in which to
read them.  (Unless Jerry Boyajian or Chris Jarocha-Ernst, master
bibliographers-of-the-net, beat me to it :-) ).

Walter
decvax!cg-atla!hunt

------------------------------

Date: 16 November 87 12:55 EST
From: UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: James Schmitz

An earlier version of this note and/or any issues of SF-Lovers in
reply to it seem to have gone to the great bitbucket in the sky; at
least, I never saw either in anything that made it back to me, and I
don't have access to any archiver to go sifting thru back issues. If
this question was actually answered at some point, my apologies, and
can someone tell me how to get whatever issue had the reply? If it
hasn't appeared yet, then:

Can anyone either post or e-mail to me a list of all the Telzey
Amberdon stories by James Schmitz? I know that at least one story,
"Glory Day", was not included in the anthology series of those
stories that Ace put out some years ago, and would like to find out
what else fell through the cracks.  Thanx much!

Artie Samplaski
Wilson Synchrotron, Cornell
UUAJ%CORNELLA.BITNET @ CU-ARPA.CS.CORNELL.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 21:17:09 GMT
From: aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry)
Subject: Child of Fortune

Has anybody else read Spinrad's Child of Fortune?  I read it
recently and was very impressed by the writing.  This is a
coming-of-age tale set in a future when humanity has spread to the
stars.  When children arrive at a certain stage in development,
anywhere from 14 to 20 or so, formal schooling stops and the child
embarks on a quest for his or her adult self.  Such "children of
fortune" leave home and wander until they discover their adult
names.  This could be done very badly (such as cutesy
psuedo-American Indian), but Spinrad ties it well to broad
mythology.  In fact, the heroine survives by making a myth for
herself and then living it.  Feels like touches of Cambell here and
there.

The writing is kalidoscopic, especially the language.  The diaspora
to the stars has created many pockets of local culture, and many old
languages and customs have survived (along with new, very strange
cultures).  Each mond has its own sprach, which vraiment lends spice
even to simple conversations, verdad?  (This book is lots of fun if
you are familiar with several languages, but that is NOT to say that
it is unreadable.)  Spinrad writes with a rather baroque voice here,
well suited to the times he describes.  Also well suited to a
ruespieler such as Moussa.

The book can occasionally feel like Spinrad in his "60s leftover"
mode.  I often felt like I was being preached at for not being young
and hip.  Then I remember how the story is being filtered through
the growing perceptions of a young woman in the midst of her
Wanderjahr.  There was a lot good in the sixties, and this culture
captures one way such ideas might go.  The book is partly a
challenge to some of us, "see what you left behind now that you
think you are grown up".  I wish I had or made the opportunity for a
Wanderjahr for myself.

Anyway, what do other netlanders think?  It is the best Spinrad I
have read so far.  I have not read The Void Captain's Tale.  Is this
set in the same universe?  I have heard it described as "The
definitive tract upon the female orgasm", is it worth reading?

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 07:30:56 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Little Heroes by Norm Spinrad

Has anyone read it?  It sounds really moronic (rock 'n' roll saves
the world, my ass), but its gotten fairly good reviews.

My impression from looking at the cover is that Spinrad is trying to
jump on the infamous, all-inclusive, kitchen sink cyberpunk
bandwagon.

Reviews anyone?

Soren F. Petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 18-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #505
Date: 18 Nov 87 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #505
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 87 0947-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #505
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Nov 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 505

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 14:37:34 PST (Wednesday)
From: PMacay.PA@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: STTNG

   I was watching a tape of last weeks show, the only way with all
those commercials, and I just have to say this is turning into a
great show!
   The characters are growing on us, as expected, and we are
learning the pecking order amongst them all.
    This was the episode where they are transporting some diplomats
to a peace conference when they pass an unidentified energy field.
After awhile, everyone starts questioning the captain because he is
acting weird, and just as I was saying, 'They are all questioning
his superiority, a captain would never put up with that', the
captain yells back that they are doing just that.  Perfect timing I
thought and very convincing.  This episode was lots of fun, I loved
the aliens, and their habits!
   'Where no one has gone before' was my favorite episode so far,
even if it did have that brat in it.  My second favorite episode was
where we didn't have to put up with the kid for a whole episode.  I
like the idea of families on the ship, but on the bridge, come
on?!?!?!
   This weeks was OK, with everyone running around it their
underwear, I was hoping the kid would get his just desserts though.
LET'S SEE JUSTICE DONE!!
   One thing I noticed; I don't remember anyone getting killed on
the series yet.  Seems Kirks crew dropped like flies.  Just when I
thought that, the guy in engineering (another chief engineer?) had
that bolt of lighting come out of the control panels and zap him.
This is the first death I can remember.
   All in all, I am really enjoying this show, but do yourself a
favor and tape them to fast forward through the commercials.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 15:19:13 GMT
From: MIQ%PSUVMA.BITNET@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Maloy)
Subject: Re: Ferrengi are actually a subtle and advanced race

brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) says:
>The T'kon is clearly not what he says he is, if a T'kon at all.
>First of all, in spite of a claim of not being activated for Aeons,
>the T'kon speaks English fluently!  He pretends not to know of the
>fall of the T'kon empire and the date, when any powerful creature
>would be able to figure out the passing of the years by a quick
>scan of the sky.  He can read minds and scan computer banks, and
>yet denies the passing of the years or the truth of the human
>statements about the date?

   As to English-- you mentioned yourself he read minds.  He could
certainly figure out how to speak the language.

   As to denying the date-- note why he denied it, and the fall of
the Empire.  "THE EMPIRE IS FOREVER!!!"  Sounds rather like a
religious conviction.  Anyone who's read through talk.origins could
tell you that religious convictions will often cause someone to deny
observed facts.

>Consider subtle hints of the advanced Ferrengi culture.  Ferrengi
>do not use valuable metals like gold for meaningless adornment.

   If they still consider gold a "valuable metal," when the
Federation can manufacture it by the ton, they aren't that advanced.
It wasn't meaningless adornment either, it was the communicator.

   Despite the nitpicking, I still liked the article.  Imaginative
rationalizations have been sorely lacking lately.  It's good to see
someone who's willing to come up with one.

James D. Maloy
The Pennsylvania State University
Aerospace Engineering, '87
Bitnet: MIQ@PSUECL
        MIQ@PSUVM
UUCP:{akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!miq

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 11:16 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG: Picard

Will Martin writes:
>Re the recent discussions as to the "Frenchness" of the captain,
>and why that particular character was so designed -- I think it has
>to to with Jacques Cousteau, the currently-well-known French marine
>explorer and ecologist. There are a lot of parallels between the

Not Cousteau, but Picard (can't remember first name), also an
explorer but working with bathyspheres (deep-sea submersibles).  I
think he did his work in the pre-war (WWI) era, and his research was
pretty deep (:-)) stuff for his time.  Still is, actually.

I'm sure the above contains several inaccuracies.  Corrections
welcome, but no flames, please; my encyclopedia brittanica is in the
mail :-)

gb

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 15:59:26 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: Question on the Prime Directive

I think it's fairly clear that the meaning of the Prime Directive
has changed in the years intervening between the two series.  In the
original Star Trek, the Prime Directive definitely stated that the
Federation should not interfere with the development of
non-spacefaring cultures by providing evidence that there were
beings out among the stars.

The new Prime Directive appears to be this: the Federation will take
no hostile actions towards any being.  Since the Enterprise carries
weapons, there must be exceptions: one assumes that there is a self-
defense clause -- if there wasn't, Yar and Worf would recognize that
there was no chance of attacking any enemy, and so they wouldn't
talk the way they do.  Probably they'd never have been commissioned
in the first place, and anyway, they'd have resigned at the first
opportunity.

There is probably an exception for "declared enemies" too; the
Ferrengi seem to fall in this category.  The Enterprise had no
qualms about chasing them into unknown space to get back the gizmo
they stole.  It is not clear how far the Enterprise would have gone
to get the thing back, but they were surely prepared to *threaten*
violence, even if it was just a bluff.

Finally, if memory serves me correctly, in "Encounter at Farpoint",
the old man said something like, "We aren't members of the
Federation, so the Prime Directive applies to your dealings with
us."  This suggests that the Prime Directive does not apply to
members of the Federation; thus the Enterprise is free to perform
"police actions" in connection with Federation members.  It would,
in fact, be natural for members of the Federation to promise help in
putting down any insurrections that might arise on other member
planets.  Of course, we all know what a can of worms this could be;
it would be interesting to see the Enterprise called on to put down
a "just" rebellion (or at least one that was not black and white).
The old series episode about the cloud-dwellers of Stratos dealt
with this issue in an indirect fashion.  It would be interesting to
see the new Enterprise forced to confront such a dilemma head on.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 18:55:27 GMT
From: uunet!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Question on the Prime Directive

Actually, I think it's a similar prime directive, just tempered a
bit.  Carefully controlled trade is allowed (for example, for
vaccines), but overt interference with planetary laws and customs
isn't allowed.

This change may have come about as a result of people like the
Ferrengi.  The Ferrengi sell technology to any culture that can pay.
It's probably where the folks in "Code of Honour" got their
transporters.

Possibly when a race has already been "corrupted" by starfarers, the
Prime Directive gets moderated.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 15:35:58 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: Question on the Prime Directive / Comment on ST:TNG
Subject: "Justice"

gruber.pa@XEROX.COM writes:
>The most recent ST:TNG episode "Justice" (aka Pleasure Planet) has
>me wondering about the Prime Directive.  The way I thought it
>worked was the following: if you encounter a planet with an
>evolving civilization, do not interfere in any way, *including*,
>for example, letting it be known that there are star-faring races,
>if this is not already known.  (Why else did Kirk et. al. get
>dressed up in local garb all the time when visiting less-advanced
>cultures?)  How is it that Picard et. al. feel free to beam down on
>Pleasure Planet and let people know that they are from space?
>These people clearly were not previously aware that
>space-travellers exist, considering the reaction of one of them
>when she was brought aboard the Enterprise (you must be gods) -- a
>clear violation of the PD, it seems to me.
>
>Anyway, can someone post the actual wording of the Prime Directive?
>Thanks.

Well, it was pretty clear to me throughout the original Star Trek
that the Prime Directive was more a suggestion than a law.  Even
when the Enterprise crew were more or less being careful about
things, they would eventually reveal themselves as star-faring
races.  They seem to always end up saying "the prime directive is
nice and all, but X will die if we don't {use our phasers, tell them
who we are, etc}.

Vernon Lee
scorpion@rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 04:00:00 EST
From: "DARREN STALDER" <dstalder@gmuvax.gmu.edu>
Subject: Star Trek Abbrevs.

Here is a question for someone that likes going into the background
of Star Trek a bit more than I do.  What does NCC stand for?

One other thing: At least in STTNG, the captain of the ship doesn't
go around risking his life every episode.  What was worse, most of
the time, the Captain and the XO went together.

Darren Stalder
15713 Edgewood Dr.
Dumfries, VA 22026
1-703-323-3569
Internet: DSTALDER@GMUVAX.GMU.EDU
Bitnet:   DSTALDER@GMUVAX
UUCP:  (dolqci | uunet!pyrdc)!gmu90x!dstalder

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 16:42:58 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: ST:TNG -- Rick Sternbach, mattes, and planets

From:   lznv!psc        (Paul S. R. Chisholm)
>> Actually, I thought it was the first time I'd seen anything in
>> the new show that actually looks like it was painted by series
>> "Illustrator" (as it reads in the credits) Rick Sternbach.
>
> I assume he does the matte work. Rewind your tape to the scene in
> "The Last Outpost" where Riker looks out (from a height) at the
> desolate planet.  The Universal back lot isn't *that* big (or
> ugly).

Oh, I'm sure that Rick does a lot of matte work and probably many of
the astronomical paintings. The shot of M33, though, was the first
time I'd seen a backdrop painting that screamed at me, "This is a
Rick Sternbach painting!"

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 87 18:14:31 PLT
From: Andrew Vaught <29284843%WSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: the episode "Justice"---

Somehow, TNG just can't seem to recapture the cliff-hangers that the
OG had. It seems that just about every episode involves
ultra-powerfull aliens that keep sparing the Enterprise on whims. In
"Justice", we have a conflict between the Prime (non-interference)
Directive and Wesley Crusher's life. Picard decides to forget about
the PD to save wesley (I agree with the poster who wants to see the
``Wesley Crusher Must Die'' episode). The only problem is these
aliens who for some reason don't want Picard to be a hypocrite.
After some sweet talk, the aliens are convinced to let the crew go,
making for a rather abrupt ending.

Star Trek just does not have `depth'. Surely there must be some
precedent for a member of a landing party unknowingly breaking some
(possibly ridiculous) local law, and therefore starfleet should have
some set procedure for Picard to follow. Instead, Picard wings it,
like this is the first time that something like this ever happened.
It also took Picard long enough to realize that the Prime Directive
deals with interfering with cultural development. Simply beaming
down to a planet interferes with the society-- traffic jams caused
by the crew, souvenier vendors coming out with starfleet uniforms...
No, the Prime Directive is just to prevent stuff like giving phaser
rifles to cultures that aren't ready for them.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 16 NOV 87 04:38-PST
From: dkrause%UCIVMSA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Star Trek

In the latest episode of The Next Generation ("Justice" by my
calendar) the captain and crew go into wonderful speeches about The
Prime Directive and "our law is better than your law because we
don't execute any more".  But one thing they didn't address is that
Wes did violate the laws of the Edos (I hope I remember that
correctly) on the planet of the Edos.  Now I don't know about the
future, but on good old Earth circa late 20th Century, when you
visit another nation you are subject to the laws of that nation and
nothing your home country does can help, (unless of course the
natives are willing to listen).  Any comments on this?

Douglas Krause
ARPANET: dkrause@orion.cf.uci.edu
BITNET: DJKrause@ucivmsa
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucivax!orion!dkrause

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 16:26:01 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil P. Marsh)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

dkrause@UCIVMSA.BITNET writes:
> more".  But one thing they didn't address is that Wes did violate
> the laws of the Edos (I hope I remember that correctly) on the
> planet of

BUT!  Do you not also remember the fact that the Edo did not fully
disclose their laws and punishments when asked?  The punishment of
death is not a deterrent when the punishment and crime are not known
-- OR ARE WITHELD!

Neil P. Marsh
415 1/2 W. Gilbert St.
Muncie, IN  47305
UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!drwho

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 17:20:34 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

dkrause@UCIVMSA.BITNET writes:
>        But one thing they didn't address is that Wes did violate
> the laws of the Edos (I hope I remember that correctly) on the
> planet of the Edos.  Now I don't know about the future, but on
> good old Earth circa late 20th Century, when you visit another
> nation you are subject to the laws of that nation and nothing your
> home country does can help, (unless of course the natives are
> willing to listen).  Any comments on this?

Well, we do have diplomatic immunity for important guests from other
countries.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 87 12:38:20 CST
From: "Steve C. Gonzales" <$CS1136%LSUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG - 'Justice'

    'Who's afraid of the Big Bad Wolf, the Big Bad Wolf ...'
    Who says that ST:TNG didn't exactly have all problems worked out
?? !-) I loved the way Picard handled the crisis when 'God' came
toward The Enterprise.  'Transporter Room, zoom what's her face down
to the planet: YESTERDAY!' !-) That was the first time anyone had
seen Dr. Crusher's eyes open that wide.  'Justice' may not have been
my favorite episode of the new series, but it sure runs a close
third. There was only one problem I had with it: too much skin and
'love'.  The writers could have at least toned it down a little.
Call me old fashioned, but I'm willing to bet that there are some
who agree with me.
     Getting on the bright side again, Troi's character has stopped
talking in doubles and has stopped squealing. I believe the cast is
making some headway with the Great Bird.
     Picard has also toned down his dominance over his crew a little
bit and has started treating them like people now. I liked the
private conversaton between Data and himself. 'I would like you to
come hear a talk to me, my friend,' not just 'I need to know what
you think, Data.'
     Next episode looks to be a little far-fetched right now, due to
the scenes, but I'll watch that one too.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 18-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #506
Date: 18 Nov 87 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #506
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 87 1000-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #506
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Nov 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 506

Today's Topics:

               Books - Gibson & Henderson (2 msgs) &
                       LeGuin (2 msgs) & Myers (3 msgs) &
                       Spider Robinson & Silverberg &
                       Tiptree & Wolfe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 November 1987, 11:15:32 EST
From: Brent Hailpern <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Gibson and Donaldson

I just finished "Burning Chrome" a collection of Gibson short
stories.  They are all very much in the "Neuromancer" style and as
such are enjoyable and disturbing at the same time.  The paperback
is worth buying and I rate it somewhere below "Neuromancer" but
above "Count Zero".

By the way, I saw the hard cover of Donaldson's sequel (or second
half) of "Mordant's Need/Mirror of her Dreams" in the book store
this weekend.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 03:18 EST
From: <SEGAL%NYUACF.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Zenna Henderson

Brandon Allbery writes..
[in ref to a request for stories about the people...]
>The books are THE PEOPLE and THE PEOPLE:NO DIFFERENT FLESH.  I
>consider myself lucky that...I found both at a local second hand
>bookstore recently.

Well, everyone who has only mentioned two books, keep looking, there
are PEOPLE stories in two more of Zenna Henderson's books - HOLDING
WONDER and THE ANYTHING BOX. We have the first at home, it is mostly
people stories, but I don't remember what the rest of it is, as I
have been at school for a while and haven't read the book in a
while. As for the other one, I have never seen it, but have been
told that it contains a few people stories and some other stuff.
Keep up the search, and good luck...

Richard Segal
NYU
SEGAL@NYUACF.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 16:31:31 GMT
From: ll-xn!drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Zenna Henderson

SEGAL@NYUACF.BITNET writes:
>Brandon Allbery writes..
>[in ref to a request for stories about the people...]
>>The books are THE PEOPLE and THE PEOPLE:NO DIFFERENT FLESH.
>Well, everyone who has only mentioned two books, keep looking,
>there are PEOPLE stories in two more of Zenna Henderson's books -
>HOLDING WONDER and THE ANYTHING BOX. We have the first at home, it
>is mostly people stories, but I don't remember what the rest of it
>is, as I have been at school for a while and haven't read the book
>in a while. As for the other one, I have never seen it, but have
>been told that it contains a few people stories and some other
>stuff.  Keep up the search, and good luck...

*Holding Wonder* is supposed to contain two People stories
(according to cover blurbs), but actually features only one, "The
Indelible Kind."  *The Anything Box* doesn't have any People
stories, to the best of my recollection.  Both books are well worth
reading.

A couple of People stories, still unanthologized as far as I know,
appeared in F&SF in the 1970s and early 1980s.  Neither was terribly
memorable.

BTW, the name of the first collection of People stories is
*Pilgrimage: The Book of the People*.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 09:40:24 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Re: THE DISPOSSESSED... Odonian philosophy
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>
To: gruber.pa@Xerox.COM

In "The Wind's Twelve Quarters", there is a short story about Odo in
her later years. It is called "The Night Before the Revolution". I
haven't read "The Dispossessed" yet, but after reading "The
Night...", I really want to. TWTQ is a great book if you like
LeGuin, because she spends up to a few pages before each story
talking about how she wrote it - the part on "The Night..." does
have a little discussion of Odonian philosophy.

My favorite story in TWTQ is "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas",
another anti-utopian piece. Good collection - read it.

Josh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 87 09:41 EDT
From: <MANAGER%SMITH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: re: Le Guin

>   I just read Ursula K. Le Guin's THE DISPOSSESSED...
>   I am wondering: has she written anything else which includes
>more discussion of Odonian philosophy?  Just curious.  (Actually,
>I'm going to start a revolution. :->)

She has, but as in _The Disposessed_, it's an indirect
discussion...and now I can't remember the name of it.  It's a story
in _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_, so it should be pretty easy to
find.

It's not exactly the same world.  In _The Disposessed_, the Odonians
left Urras to start their own society on Anarres.  Urrasti society
(esp. in A-io or however it's spelled) is pretty much completely
counter to Annaresti (Odonian) society.  In the story that I'm
thinking of, the Odonians stayed on Urras, in A-io, and fought a
successful revolution (although the story implies that the
revolution didn't spread beyond A-io).  The story is set in A-io, a
number of years after the revolution, and the principal character is
Laia (?) Odo herself.  If you're interested in Odonian philosophy,
you will like this story.  It's a nice contrast--a picture of an
Odonian society at an earlier stage in its evolution.

Now that I think about it, this is very similar to what Le Guin did
in _The Eye of the Heron_.  This book involves a society of
pacifists, whose ancestors were believers in pacifism a la
King/Gandhi etc., and who have been raised in those beliefs.  One of
the main themes (I think) in this book is the difference between how
ideals are visualized by the first generation to embrace them, and
how they're implemented by succeeding generations.  As with the
Odonian works, you get the sense that the later generations have not
distorted the ideals, and yet the implementation seems different
than what the founders visualized.

Comments?

Mary Malmros
Smith College

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 87 11:38:20 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: ames!atari!imagen!fjd@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Subject: Mapping the World of Fiction

I heartily endorse _Silverlock_. It is a great book. In fact I've
bought it for a third time; somehow, I keep lending it out, and they
take a long time coming back.

Unfortunately, I can't identify as many of the characters as I know
I should.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 87 01:34:00 GMT
From: uiucdcs!bradley!bucc2!frodo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Mapping the World of Fiction

Yes, I care to.  I read it, and though I didn't think it quite
deserved the rave intros by such as Niven, it was quite a good read,
and I think it was a marvelous book.  There are SO many references
to so many disparate classics and near-classics that it would take
several readings to appreciate it all.  I think the funniest part of
the whole thing was that the main character was a completely
anti-literary business major type (as I recall, this may be personal
bias, so don't take it personally if you're a business major, eh?
you wouldn't be reading this group if you weren't somewhat literary
anyway).

I also got another book that was much slimmer, touted to be the
"sequel" to Silverlock, (I can't recall the name offhand, but
somthing about the moon's fire-eating daughter) but I saw no
relation between the two at all.  It was, in fact, quite a struggle
to get through.

Leave it to Mr. Meyers to send Don Quixote off in search of Babe the
Blue Ox!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 13:01:57 GMT
From: stuart@cs.rochester.edu (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter

frodo@bucc2.UUCP writes:
> I also got another book that was much slimmer, touted to be the
> "sequel" to Silverlock, (I can't recall the name offhand, but
> somthing about the moon's fire-eating daughter) but I saw no
> relation between the two at all.  It was, in fact, quite a
> struggle to get through.

That is, in fact, the title: "The Moon's Fire-Eating Daughter". I
also thought the connection with "Silverlock" was negligible;
certainly neither The Land nor significat characters are shared,
only the literary muse.  TMF-ED is a pretty poor book in comparison
to S.  TMF-ED is (was) available from Donning/Starblaze in a trade
format edition for those who want to check it out.

Stu Friedberg
{ames,cmcl2,rutgers}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 14:30:27 GMT
From: flee@gondor.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: Time_Pressure, by Spider Robinson

Time_Pressure
Spider Robinson
Ace Books, 1987

When I finished it, my thought was, "This should have been a short
story."  It's an okay idea poorly done.

It is 1973, and a beautiful woman time traveller has just dropped
into the backwoods of Nova Scotia.  But the book is really about the
hippie culture that lives in retreat in the Canadian wilderness.

Most of the narrative is pretty dull:
  The woodshed grunted a dire warning as I passed.  I ignored it; it
  had been threatening to fall over ever since I had known it, back
  in the days when it had been a goat-shed.  As I went by the
  outhouse I half turned to see if the new plastic window I'd
  stapled up last week had torn itself to pieces yet, and as I saw
  that it had, a shingle left the tiny roof with the sound of a
  busted E-string and came spinning at my eyes like a ninja
  deathstar.  I'm pretty quick, but the distance was short and the
  closing velocity high; I took most of it on my hat but a corner of
  it put a small slice on my forehead.  I was almost glad then for
  the cold.  It numbed my forehead, the bleeding stopped fairly
  quickly for a forehead wound, and what there was swiftly froze and
  could be easily brushed off.  [p. 5]

This sort of thing continues for the next hundred pages.  Relatively
little happens in the first half of the book.  It's mostly
descriptions of Canadian wilderness in winter, portraits of hippies
and hippie culture, self-conscious references to science fiction,
various episodes of sex, and Heinlein-esque conversations about
love.  Then, all of a sudden, you're bombarded with the climax.
After that, it just peters out.

A major theme of the book is Cosmic Oneness, but the narrator (Sam)
is an outsider:
  I had loved no one; few had loved me.  I had pissed away my
  talent.  I had, in general and with rare exceptions, hated my
  neighbour.  I had left the music business when the folk music
  market collapsed--not because I didn't like other kinds of music;
  I did--but because folk music was the only kind you could play
  alone.  I had never truly learned to stand other people.  [p. 185]

Reading 200 pages of this person's introspection tried my patience.

SERIOUS SPOILER WARNING.

Time_Pressure is a sequel to Mindkiller (a book worth reading by
itself).  Nowhere on the cover, on the jacket, in the first
hundred-plus pages is this fact telegraphed.  It is not a "prequel",
despite being set earlier in time.

You don't need to read all of Time_Pressure; reading the
history-of-the-world speech on page 192 (about a dozen pages) is
enough.

Felix Lee
flee@gondor.psu.edu
*!psuvax1!gondor!flee

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 13:39:27 GMT
From: U00254%hasara5.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Silverberg

I agree with the people who like Silverberg's Majipoor trilogy.
Since Silverberg is now a 'topic' on this board, I'll re-post my
question of about two months back : about a year ago I read in a
magazine that there will be a FOURTH Majipoor novel. Does anyone out
there know about this? (Chuq???)  Also, two weeks ago I came across
a RPG booklet that had Silverberg's Majipoor as subject : Revolt on
Majipoor by Matt Costello (Tor Fantasy).  Robert S wrote the intro
for this booklet.

Jacqueline Cote
Astronomical Institute
Univ. of Amsterdam
The Netherlands
U00254 @ HASARA5.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Nov 87 07:17:28 GMT
From: im4u!ut-sally!usl!usl-pc!jpdres10@RUTGERS.EDU (Green Eric Lee)
Subject: A belated appreciation...

I just finished a book. And the word "intense" springs first to
mind, perhaps for the same reason that Ursula LeGuin used the word
"real"*.  And so I rush off to my keyboard to make a fool of myself.

When news of the death of Alice Sheldon, a.k.a. James Tiptree, hit
the net, I could say nothing, for, as a newcomer to the science
fiction world, I'd never heard of Tiptree. I set out to remedy that.
After looking through every library, bookstore, and used book store
in my town of Lafayette, Louisiana, I can only find three books by
her. All of her books except the latest two are now out of print,
she was never popular enough for the tiny local library to consider
buying, and the few who own Tiptree books apparently are unwilling
to part with them.

For good reason, perhaps. The cover blurb of _Brightness Falls From
The Air_ attributes the quote "an extraordinary experience" to the
New York Times Book Review. And yes, it is, at that. An experience
of the full gamut of humanity and feeling and love and hate that
leaves you limp and exhausted and exhilirated and saddened, an
experience where the most hokum of storybook endings somehow doesn't
seem wrong, but rather just one of those strange happenings that
fall out of the sky sometimes, like the strange storybook chain of
events that led me from a probable very bad ending in the inner city
of Shreveport, to the university where I am now.

But nothing is forever, eternity is a long long time, and Alice
Sheldon knew this as well as anybody. Facing death was a large part
of her last two books, and when it came time to face death in real
life, she did it quickly and with dignity. Everyone dies sometime,
and her time was near, and she did what she felt she had to do. I
can respect that. Can we really truly judge whether she was right or
wrong?

And so passes a human being, and her works shall soon follow.
Remember Philip K. Dick's _The Man in the High Tower_? Try getting
it at your local B. Dalton or Waldenbooks and you'll see what I
mean. Life continues, the world turns, and what was is forgotten. I
can only hope that other authors and would-be authors keep in mind
that it is not enough to have plot and dialog and characters, that
it is something else that seperates hacks from literature. Call it
humanity. Call it spirit or soul or whatever you wish, for you
certainly are not going to find words for it in a dictionary. When I
sit down in front of keyboard and make my feeble attempts at
writing, I am not writing about nuts and bolts and planetology and
the mechanisms of FTL drives.  I write about human beings, with
their hopes and fears and love and hate and demons that plague the
soul, something not very different from Tiptree even though I've
been writing far longer than I've been reading Tiptree. I am glad
that others more talented and experienced are doing the same, even
if it gets that superb example of cold intellectualism Norman
Spinrad mad at them for being sentimental overemotional fools.

* see introduction to the collection "Star Songs of an Old Primate

Eric Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{ihnp4,cbosgd}!killer!elg
{ut-sally,killer}!usl!elg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 87 08:29:35 EST
From: John Cherniavsky <jcc@mimsy.umd.edu>
Subject: Urth of the New Sun

Just finished Gene Wolfe's latest, Urth of the New Sun (Tor
Hardcover).  Written very much in the style of the three
predecessors. Some, but not everything, explained (at least to my
satisfaction). More complete review with minor spoilers later also
review of Jack Vance's latest.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 18-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #507
Date: 18 Nov 87 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #507
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 18 Nov 87 1020-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #507
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 18 Nov 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 507

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 87 18:16:06 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@Q2.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Last Outpost

>   I think it's more realistic that the characters don't have heavy
>accents.  After all, this is several centuries from now, there are
>no longer separate countries.  The heavy accents would have long
>ago disappeared.  That was the one thing I didn't like about the
>old Star Treks.

   A few centuries, perhaps, but not, I think, several.  I haven't
been watching, so I've missed it if something specific was said, but
where do you get the idea there are no separate countries?
Considering the trends of the past, and the tendencies still strong
today, there seems little reason to suppose countries would
amalgamate.  I have always found it a flaw of oversimplification in
most science fiction that other planets are never considered to have
countries (Ursula LeGuin's "The Dispossessed" is the one exception I
know of).  Indeed, they are frequently treated as if they themselves
were countries, with, for instance, one capital city per planet.

   And even if it were true that national boundaries would have
disappeared, it still doesn't follow that regional accents would
follow.  People are still growing up with strong Southern, or New
York, or Boston, or Glasgow, or Cockney accents, despite the
enormous amount of immediate vocal communications between the
various areas, and despite the fact that various of the regions are
within the same countries.  And I think people like it that way: if
you're proud of where you're from, it's pleasant to carry a
practically indelible attribute of it.  I think you'd find enormous
popular resistence to the idea of homogenising accents, if it were
to be tried.

As for why Picard doesn't sound French (I assume he doesn't,
since it has been said at least once, and since I know Patrick
   Stewart is English):
      the hard answer: Stewart is a fine actor, but I shouldn't
   think he'd want to commit himself to simulating a French accent
   (how strong? what region?) for the whole series.  Much more
   reliable just to speak normally;

      the answer within the story: most French, or so I believe,
   when learning English are taught English English, so the better
   they learn it, the more and more English they sound.  After all,
   if you were learning French, would be more likely to choose Cajun
   or Quebecois, or Parisian?

   Knowing how dear the French hold their language, and how much
care they take of it, I find the idea of its death in a mere few
centuries quite incredible; certainly not believable enough for
inclusion in ST scripts.  In fact, considering the relative lack of
concern for English on the part of so many English speakers, I have
to think the demise of English may be more likely than that of
French, and that the great numbers of people around the world who
speak some form of it now would wind up collectively speaking
something quite a bit different.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 87 20:54 EDT
From: "George Barbanis" <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG: "Injustice"

After the last STTNG episode, the boy has replaced the Betamax as
the STTNG character I dislike most.  He is intollerably smug ("I'm
with starfleet; we dont lie"), wimpy ("Captain, are you going to let
them kill me?"), and a busybody to boot ("It seems this matter
concerns me too, Captain").  OK, so the Traveller said he's a child
prodigy like Mozart, but couldn't they lock him up in a room (or the
brig) and let him compose string quartets or design warp engines?
   Well, I suppose not.  He does have a contract after all.  But
they could have a series (sitcom?) in the 6 o'clock zone, something
like "Wesley goes to Starfleet", and keep everybody happy.
   Apart from the boy, the last episode was a letdown.  They had a
typical ST climax in their hands, and all they did is roll out the
old deus ex machina to resolve it.  Boooring.  Well, I guess that
among the good episodes one has to get some chaff as well.  On a
scale from [] to [*****], I'd give this episode [* */2].

George Barbanis
UMass - Amherst

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1987 10:08 EDT
From: Stan Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12

  In reference to the person who thinks it plausible that the chief
engineer is assigned on a temporary and rotating basis, like the
Office of the Day in the military.  I very much doubt it.  A ship
the complexity of a starship would require an engineering staff with
members who all have a fine degree of specialization.  Some would be
familiar with the propulsion systems, so with the weaponry, and
other with the navigation systems, etc.  The chief engineer it seems
to me is the overseer of these people.  At least that's the way it
appeared on the old Star Trek series and the movies.  The position
of chief engineer would entail much experience and knowledge of all
aspects of the ship's physical operation.  This would be a major
task being as though a star ship is such a complex thing.  Finding a
different person way out in space to be chief engineer on a rotating
basis seems very implausible.  It would be hard enough to find just
one engineer who knows enough to be chief.  It would also be
impractical for the Federation to post several individuals with such
skills on a single ship.  At most, two are necessary.  One as a
backup in case the other becomes incapacitated.

Stan Horwitz
Temple University
V4039 at TEMPLEVM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 14:15:00 EST
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG - "JUSTICE"

   Well, "Justice" seemed to be one of the weaker episodes of the
season.  They had a perfect chance to kill Wesley off and they blew
it.  Oh, well.  I did not care much for the major plotline, but
there were some little touches which I enjoyed.  One of these was
bringing Worf's character more into light. The scene with his
feeling that female humans are too fragile was quite humorous. Data
continues to be one of my favorite characters and the writers seem
to be having fun with him.
   At Philcon Timothy Zahn gave a slide show making fun of the old
Star Trek pointing out some of the problems.  Afterwards people
mentioned that the new show has solved some of the old problems and
replaced them with new ones.  I asked him whether he was going to
write an episode.  He said that he had a story featuring Data, but
that it probably won't get done.  This is because "everyone wants to
write for Star Trek".  I hope that this is a good sign and we will
be seeing some very interesting shows in the future.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@UMCINCOM
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 19:10:29 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

drwho@bsu-cs.UUCP (Neil P. Marsh) writes:
>dkrause@UCIVMSA.BITNET writes:
>> But one thing they didn't address is that Wes did violate the
>> laws of the Edos (I hope I remember that correctly) on the planet
>
>BUT!  Do you not also remember the fact that the Edo did not fully
>disclose their laws and punishments when asked?  The punishment of
>death is not a deterrent when the punishment and crime are not
>known -- OR ARE WITHELD!

The Edos were asked what their laws were but they were not asked
what their punishments were. Yar said so. Given the Edos culture it
is not surprising at all that they didn't think to volunteer the
information of punishment.  Knowing that something is against the
law should be a sufficient deterrent to a civilized people. You
should not have to tell them what the punishment is to get them to
obey your laws.

Think of it this way. When you go to a foreign country are you
briefed on their laws and punishments by that country before being
allowed to enter that country? No. Are you still expected to obey
those laws and will you be held responsible and punishable under
those laws if you break them? Yes. Ignorance of the law or of the
punishments decreed by those laws is no excuse for breaking them.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: TUE NOV 17, 1987 13.13.29 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: STTNG - Wesly Must Die

    ACK!  Let's be serious people.  The Prime Directive states that
under NO circumstances should the evolution of a planet be
interfered with by a member of Star Fleet.  This means that Wesly
should have been left to die.  It's not pretty, but it *IS* the way
things are.  Think of how many times Kirk dressed up in those idiot
clothes so as not to confuse the natives.  Think of how *pissed* he
was when the Klingons would give technology to the enemies.  Now,
if, in "Wesly Must Die" (I like the title.  I know it didn't happen,
but I can dream :^) what was Pickard going to do, kill off the
entire population of the planet to save Wesly?

Now...  ***FLAME ON***

    I'm sorry, but for someone who is supposed to be an ensign on a
starship, Wesly is a wimp..  No bravery...  No "Captain, you can't
sacrifice the Prime Directive for me..."  Instead we get...
"Whimper...  Whimper...  Gee Captain...  You're not gonna let them
hurt me... Are you??? Whimper..."  Talk about child like...

***FLAME OFF***

   Now, I may be biased because his character bothers me.  (Every
time I look at him I expect Data to say "Danger Will Robinson,
Danger" :^) What kind of person would he be like in combat???  Love
to see him on the bridge in the middle of a battle...  "Whimper...
Captain, you're not gonna let that nasty photon torpedo hurt me, are
you?"

   Should let him die (grumble...grumble...grumble...)

Mitchel Ludwig
Box 72 Lehigh Univ.
Beth, Pa.  18015
215-758-1381
BITnet : MFL1@Lehigh.bitnet
INTnet : Kmfludw@vax1.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 87 13:53 EDT
From: DANDOM%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Dan Parmenter)
Subject: Apples and Oranges...c

From: bobj@ihlpf.att.com (Evanovich)
>kent@xanth.UUCP (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>>In the government vessels on which I've served (1 7800 ton Polaris
>>submarine, and 2 <=3000 ton NOAA research ships) there was only
>>one "chief engineer"; the way that job is structured, it would
>>make
>[deletions for brevity]
>>Anyone got carrier or battleship experience to comment on a vessel
>>organization for something as big in personnel as the ST:TNG
>>vessels?
>
>I served on the carrier USS Enterprise between 1972 and 1974.  At
>that time they had one chief engineering officer rank of full
>commander with four or five subordinate officers of Lt. commander
>rank.

Oh, and did they have rowers as well?  I'm sorry, but I don't think
that it's worth trying to compare the personnel for a modern vessel
to that of a futuristic starship.  The simple fact is, that hundreds
of years of technological and sociological development are going to
have a dramatic effect on the way that a ship's personnel are
designated.  Do modern ships have science officers?  Not that I know
of.  Perhaps in truth, Starships will require a staff far larger
than we have seen yet.  Or maybe one guy can handle everything.

One of the most promising things I remember hearing about the new
series 'way back when' was that it might not be arranged along such
military lines.  The implication from one of the Ferengi episodes is
that the Federation is arranged along the lines of Socialism.  At
least they imply it by referring to The Ferengi's Capitalist ways as
'backward'.  Is 'Federation Space' commonly owned?  The mind boggles.
One hopes for more insight as we delved deeper into the series.

Dan Parmenter
Hampshire College

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 01:41:43 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!mandrill!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Question on the Prime Directive / Comment on ST:TNG
Subject: "Justice"

gruber.pa@XEROX.COM writes:
>I agree with the person that pointed out that it would have been
>trivial to avoid voilating the PD in this episode.  If Bones can
>fake a death, Dr. Crusher should be able to.  This would be a
>ripoff of some other shows but I would have preferred it to the
>brain-dead solution Picard chooses. (Let's just beam out of here
>and hope the gods don't get mad at us. Yeah, that's the ticket...)

Sigh.  We get an episode where Picard very definitely TAKES CHARGE,
thus ending one of the most popular anti-Picard flames on the Net,
and he gets flamed for *taking* *charge*.  Sigh.  A "better
solution" would probably bring us back the "wimp Picard" postings.

>I was also bothered by the age range on the planet (no babies, no
>one pregnant with all of that sex going on, no one over 25 --
>reminded me of Logan's Run).

Maybe the "bubble" from GOD was the equivalent of the little
crystals?  ;-)

>Final thought: it would have been nice to see the crew dressed up
>in local garb!! :->

And (surely it's part of the Prime Directive) acting like the
natives.  A couple of problems with that, though: Worf ("...*human*
females... are too fragile.") and Wes ("Uh, there are some, uh,
`games' I don't know yet.").

Brandon S. Allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu
{hoptoad,harvard!necntc,{sun,cbosgd}!hal,uunet!hnsurg3}!ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 04:24:26 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: TNG

29284843@WSUVM1.BITNET (Andrew Vaught) writes:
>In "Justice", we have a conflict between the Prime
>(non-interferance) Directive and Wesley Crusher's life. Picard
>decides to forget about the PD to save wesley (I agree with the
>poster who wants to see the ``Wesley Crusher Must Die'' episode).
>The only problem is these aliens who for some reason don't want
>Picard to be a hypocrite. After some sweet talk, the aliens are
>convinced to let the crew go, making for a rather abrupt ending.

Too bad Wesley didn't buy it in this episode. Alternatively, he
could have boffed that little blonde girl and maybe we wouldn't hate
him as much! :-)

Really, though, what I want to know is what would have happened if
the penalty for smashing the flowers had not been death, but
something like 3 years imprisonment. Would Picard have let Wes serve
his time? I don't think he was truly willing to accept ANY
punishment that would have kept Wes occupied for more than a couple
of weeks tops.

Is this a morality inconsistency? "We would like to abide by your
local laws, but if they don't suit us we'll just ignore them." In
other words, "We'll decide what punishment we'll allow you to mete
out." Not very convincing, not very Prime Directive.

BTW, I do agree that death is a little stiff for the mashing of
flowers, even if he *did* break the glass on the greenhouse too.

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 18:34:52 GMT
From: tomwest@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Tom West)
Subject: Re: Ferrengi are actually a subtle and advanced race

  I'm still waiting for Episode 12 where a spaceship full of really
viscious aliens come up to the Enterprise demanding to know if they
have seen a stolen spaceship crewed by a bunch of people who got
lucky and now are masquerading as Ferengi...

Tom West
BITNET: tomwest@utorgpu.bitnet
        tomwest@gpu.utcs.utoronto
Internet: tomwest@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
UUCP:     tomwest@utgpu
...!utgpu!tomwest

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #508
Date: 23 Nov 87 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #508
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Nov 87 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #508
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 508

Today's Topics:

                   Books - Humorous SF (5 msgs) &
                           Post-Holocaust Stories &
                           Brazil in Space (2 msgs) &
                           The Wandering Jew (2 msgs) &
                           Story Request &
                           Story Request Answers (3 msgs) &
                           Del Rey Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 87 11:54 N
From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: SF that makes you go haha

I am a great fan of humorous or even 'funny' SF, a sub-genre that
does not come up often on the net, no doubt because of the low
literary value.  On this subject I would like to a) perhaps start a
discussion, b) ask your help.

a) The question I want your opinions on has been bugging me for many
months now, so much in fact that I could have sworn I had already
posted it some time back, but since I never got any response I
probably forgot to actually mail it. It is this:

Has anybody ever noticed how much Douglas Adams got his inspiration
for the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy from Robert Sheckley's
1970's surrealistic novels like 'Options' and 'Mindswap' (especially
the latter) ?

b) And your help I need in broadening my horizon; the often-asked:
   "What books do you suggest I should read ?"

It might help to know that I go nuts over both Frederic Brown and
Robert Sheckley; that I greatly admire Dickson & Anderson's
Hoka-stories; that I also like the standard short-stories-with-
twisty-endings as done by for instance Clarke and Niven; and I also
like Keith Laumer's Retief-series, even though they are all exactly
the same, with the same running gags repeated over and over and
over... The only thing that has really bored me lately was Bored of
The Rings, which I thought extremely unfunny.

So let me know what novels or what author gets *you* rolling on the
floor.  I am eagerly awaiting your suggestions, thanx in advance

Leo Breebaart
breebaar@hlerul5.bitnet
Univ. of Leiden
The Netherlands

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 19:43:16 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>

> b) And your help I need in broadening my horizon; the often-asked:
>    "What books do you suggest I should read ?"
> So let me know what novels or what author gets *you* rolling on
> the floor.  I am eagerly awaiting your suggestions, thanx in
> advance

I find Connie Willis's short stories to be very funny (not all, just
the ones that are meant to be funny). In particular, "Blued Moon"
was hysterical, as was "Spice Pogrom." These were both originally in
"Isaac Asimov's sf Magazine", but they may have been reprinted in
her _Fire Watch_ collection. Willis's "serious" work is also
excellent.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 06:04:20 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!tecot@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Ed Tecot)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

BREEBAAR@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>So let me know what novels or what author gets *you* rolling on the
>floor.  I am eagerly awaiting your suggestions, thanx in advance

One suggestion I got from the net a year or so ago: The
"Spellsinger" series by Alan Dean Foster.  The humor is subtle and
the chuckles tend to build up inside you until you burst out
laughing.  And they're good stories as well.  Actually, I've only
read "Spellsinger" and the "Hour of the Gate", but the next three
are on my bookshelf waiting for me.  Don't let the fact that Foster
also wrote "The Last Starfighter" and "Aliens" bother you; get
"Spellsinger" and see if it's your cup of tea.

As a Douglas Adams fan, I hope you've read "Dirk Gently's Holistic
Detective Agency".  Although it's barely SF, I found it quite
interesting.  Someone else noted that Douglas is now an avid
Macintosh fan and makes that quite obvious throughout the book, but
as you may have guessed, I didn't mind.

emt

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 20:53:57 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

Let's start with the obvious ones:

Read "Earthman's Burden" by Anderson and Dickson.
   Skip "Hoka", in which it is seen that "Hoka" is the plural of
"hokum".

Read "Retief's War" by Laumer.
   Save the other Retief books for a very rainy day.

"How Much for Just the Planet" by John Ford.  Run out and buy.

"The Color of Magic" by Terry Prachett (sp?).
   I haven't read the sequels yet.

"The Incredible Umbrella" by ??--not to all tastes and not
side-splitting.  *I* liked it.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 13:43:34 GMT
From: mit-amt!mit-caf!lsrhs!diamond@RUTGERS.EDU (Beth Abrams)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>So let me know what novels or what author gets *you* rolling on the
>floor.  I am eagerly awaiting your suggestions, thanx in advance

How about Spider Robinson's Callahan stories?  Many are sad, but
many are also very funny, and some of the best ones are funny *and*
sad.  The first story in the third book nearly got me committed,
because I started to read it in a supermarket and couldn't stop
laughing...

Beth Abrams
diamond@lsrhs.UUCP
mit-eddie!lsrhs!diamond

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 01:52:55 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Earth Abides

I've also read _Earth_Abides_ (it IS by George Stewart, by the way)
and found it very enjoyable.  I won't say that it's the best
post-holocaust novel I've ever read, but it's certainly one of the
best and the best one certainly that deals with a non-nuclear
holocaust.  What I particularly liked was the excellent job the
author did of representing an extremely long period of time (50
years or so) in a comparitively short book without skimping.
Applause for Mr. Stewart.

My other favorite holocaust stories are (how mundane) the old
classics _On_The_Beach_ and _Canticle_For_Leibowitz_.  Read any of
these books and you won't be sorry.

Hal Pomeranz

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 21:12:49 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Re: Brazil in space

miket@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Mike Trout) writes:
>Some time ago, I asked for information about science fiction works
>that postulate Brazil as the big power in space.
> [Mr. Trout's summary]

also, "There Is No Darkness" (Haldeman and Haldeman) features Latin
American governments, including Brazil.  The interstellar government
is called the "Confederacio'n".
                           ^ accent here.  (ASCII sucks.)

Walter

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 00:10:20 GMT
From: rupp@cod.nosc.mil (William L. Rupp)
Subject: Re: Brazil in space

L(yon) Sprague DeCamp, one of the leading SF writers of the 1930s,
40s, and 50s, wrote a novel called THE TOWER OF ZANID, in which the
Brazilians were the space-faring nation.  This novel was published
in 1958.

By the way, a close friend of mine here in San Diego is a science
fiction writer whose name most of the readers of this group would
probably recognize (How's *that* for anonymous name dropping!  I
withhold his name out of respect for his privacy.).  He is also a
mathematician and keeps himself well-informed on such matters.  In
other words, I respect his opinion highly.

When this question first came up recently I asked him what he
thought about the chances of Brazil's becoming a space power.  His
opinion is that such an idea is by no means out of the question.

Brazil is a large nation with many resources and a big enough
population to support scientific projects of great size.  Right now
they have an enormous international debt problem, but who knows what
might happen a century from now.  They are trying to create a
homegrown microcomputer industry (with controversial political
ramifications, as the news of the last few days attest to).  And I
think they also have a nuclear project going.

We (or our grandchildren) shall see.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 87 13:39 EST
From: David H. Kaufman <Qux@MIT-GOLDILOCKS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: The Wandering Jew

From: erc@tybalt.caltech.edu (Eric R. Christian)
>There are numerous SF tales which contain "The Wandering Jew",
>usually this person is an immortal who's still around.  Nathan
>Brazil, from Jack Chalker's Well World series is a good example of
>this.

You'll also find the wandering jew in Walter Miller's A Canticle for
Leibowitz, one of the books that hooked me on SF long before I
realized it had happened.  It's a post-holocaust story set in the
American south-west; any more details would have to filter out of my
memory from way back, so you'd do better to go read it yourself.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 18:39:51 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: The Wandering Jew

The wandering Jew also makes a couple of cameo appearances in Eugene
Sue's classic "The Wandering Jew".  But don't be misled by the
title: the book is about the Great Jesuit Conspiracy.

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 87 17:10:53 GMT
From: mit-amt!mit-caf!elcess@RUTGERS.EDU (Kimberley Elcess)
Subject: A story request

    I remember reading a short story five or ten years ago. At the
time my mother was a high school English teacher and was trying to
find sf stories to include in a unit on contemporary fiction. Of
course, I never got a copy of the story to her and subsequently
forgot the title and author. If anyone recognizes the story, please
let me know.

    The society in the story was quite militaristic and had
bankrupted itself with out-of-control military technology buildup. A
large part of the cost of their spacefaring warships went for the
ship computers. The society had relied on computers for everything
for so long that people could no longer perform even the simplest
calculations. An old tinkerer takes apart something (a hand
calculator, perhaps?) and rediscovers how to multiply. The military
is ecstatic since it will now be cheap to use people instead of
computers and to continue their military escalation.

    Identification, anyone? Thanks!

Kim

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 15:46:20 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: A story request

elcess@mit-caf.UUCP (Kimberley Elcess) writes:
> The society had relied on computers for everything for so long
> that people could no longer perform even the simplest
> calculations. An old tinkerer [...] rediscovers how to multiply.
> The military is ecstatic since it will now be cheap to use people
> instead of computers and to continue their military escalation.

This is likely to be "A Feeling of Power", by Isaac Asimov.  (I may
have gotten the title slightly wrong, but it is something quite like
that.)

The "old tinkerer" re-invents arithmetic in general, starting with
addition and subtraction, and eventually multiplication, extraction
of roots, and so on.  The whole thing is classified by the military
as described by Kimberley, leading to such ironic stuff as a top
secret research project making breakthroughs in long division.

When he learns what the military intends to do with the re-invention
of arithmetic (to have human pilots of missiles, kamikazi style),
the originator of the re-invention commits suicide rather than live
with the thought of being associated with the project.

According to an authorial note in the collection where I read it,
when Asimov submitted this story, the editor rejected it, saying
that it was inconceivable that society would forget how to do
arithmetic.  I tend to agree witht he editor, but find it a
remarkably bone-headed reason to reject this particular story, which
is an interesting tragi-comedy.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 20:25:58 GMT
From: psuvax1!pitt!bgsuvax!lewis@RUTGERS.EDU (larry lewis)
Subject: Re: A story request

throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>> elcess@mit-caf.UUCP (Kimberley Elcess)
>> The society had relied on computers for everything for so long
>> that people could no longer perform even the simplest
>> calculations. An old tinkerer [...] rediscovers how to multiply.
>> The military is ecstatic since it will now be cheap to use people
>> instead of computers and to continue their military escalation.
>
> This is likely to be "A Feeling of Power", by Isaac Asimov.  (I
> may have gotten the title slightly wrong, but it is something
> quite like that.)

The name of the story is correct. The old man called his discovery
"Graphitics" and it was based on the fact that calculator answers
were consistent. EX: 6x9 always=54. The military want to use manned
bombs instead of computer driven ones. More cost effective, they
say. The man kills himself before the end of the story but he has
already given away the secret so his suicide was in vain.

It really was a very good story and if I'm not mistaken you can find
a copy of it in a collection called "the Early Asimov" along with
another great story called "The Weapon Too Dreadful To Use".  There
is another story in that collection about a planet of robots that
turns out to be Earth. Can't remember the name though.  Oh well,
Enjoy reading!

Rick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 87 13:36 CET
From: <PSST001%DTUZDV1.bitnet@jade.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Story Request

From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
>Many years ago (20?) I read what I think was a long short-story or
>a novella. The story line was that a soldier (named Had, I think)
>at the front line was getting leave.  As Had traveled away from the
>front, things seemed to change - his name went from Had to
>Hadolaris to Hadolarison to ..... time seemed to be compacted
>somehow such that several years of leave in the country where his
>name was 20+ characters long was only a few minutes at the front.
>I remember, also that there was some speculation by the soldiers
<that there wasn't any enemy at all - that their own weapons were
>being "bent" back to them by the (asymptotic?) limit of time
>distortion in that direction.

That was David J. Masson, Traveller's Rest, c1965

Michael Maisack
Tuebingen,Germany

------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 07:31:32 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: DelRey books and commitment.

SEGAL@NYUACF.BITNET writes:
>   Now, the question here is, what is the reason for this
>non-support of projects?  [ He was talking about Thorne Smith, the
>Ruth Plumley Thompson OZ books, and Barnaby ]

The reason there were never more of the Thorne Smith books published
is the same reason there were never more of James Branch Cabell's
books published: they just didn't sell.  I don't think that either
of these projects were specifically Judy Lynn DelRey's "pet"
projects; both of them were first published by Ballantine, before
Judy Lynn was there.  You can't say that Ballantine/DelRey didn't
try - they gave them both two shots, and both times, they just
didn't sell well enough to justify printing more.

As far as the Barnaby books, the same reasoning applies, except that
those WERE one of Judy Lynn's pet projects.  The same thing
happened, though - sales of the first six volumes could not justify
publishing the last six.  Barnaby was in serious trouble by about
the third book, and I count it as a nice gesture that the last three
were published at all.

Finally, the Ruth Plumley Thompson OZ books.  I would suspect that
this is the same thing, but haven't heard anything real about it (as
opposed to the two previous examples, where I've heard reasons
more-or-less straight from the horse's mouth).

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #509
Date: 23 Nov 87 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #509
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Nov 87 0917-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #509
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 509

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 04:03:07 GMT
From: richl@penguin.uss.tek.com (Rick Lindsley)
Subject: Re: Question on the Prime Directive / Comment on ST:TNG
Subject: "Justice"

gruber.pa@XEROX.COM writes:
>The most recent ST:TNG episode "Justice" (aka Pleasure Planet) has
>me wondering about the Prime Directive.  The way I thought it
>worked was the following: if you encounter a planet with an
>evolving civilization, do not interfere in any way, *including*,
>for example, letting it be known that there are star-faring races,
>if this is not already known.  (Why else did Kirk et. al. get
>dressed up in local garb all the time when visiting less-advanced
>cultures?)  How is it that Picard et. al. feel free to beam down on
>Pleasure Planet and let people know that they are from space?
>These people clearly were not previously aware that
>space-travellers exist, considering the reaction of one of them
>when she was brought aboard the Enterprise (you must be gods) -- a
>clear violation of the PD, it seems to me.

The first Away team *could* have been down in local garb and all ...
we didn't see them come up. Neither is it clear whether the local
folk understood or even cared if they came from off-world. Perhaps
that was carefully screened by the first Away team and they judged
it not to be a problem.

But bringing her on-ship ... that did seem to be stretching it a
bit.  Although, come to think of it, she was told that their vessel
lay above their world .. "You mean I can see my world from here?" It
was only when she discovered they "shared space with God" that she
suddenly seemed less worldly.

Rick

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 03:48:49 GMT
From: uunet!mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Counselor Troi

     Overall, I don't mind Troi anymore.  As long as they don't give
her too many "great joy" spasms.  Wesley is the only one that's
really intolerable.

Cheers!

Jim Omura
2A King George's Drive
Toronto
(416) 652-3880
ihnp4!utzoo!lsuc!jimomura

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 09:05:00 EST
From: "Ron Jarrell" <jarrellra@vtcs1>
Subject: Re: What NCC means...
To: "dstalder" <dstalder@gmuvax.gmu.edu>

Naval Construction Contract.  The number after it is the contract
number for constructing that ship.  So the original enterprise was
contract number 1701 with the "Navy", i.e. Star Fleet.  Since the
Navy yards at San Francisco did all the original construction of
ship like the enterprise, it's sort of a carry-over.  Now it's a
tradition, because it's still a Naval Contract number, even though
it was the Mars Starfleet Yards that constructed the new
Enterprise....

Ron Jarrell
Va Tech CS
jarrell@vtopus.cs.vt.edu
jarrellr@vtcs1.cs.vt.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 10:50:29 PST (Thursday)
From: Blurfrushan.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: STTNG renewed for second season

According to hollywood trade papers today, thanks to the great
ratings it is got so far Star Trek:TNG has been renewed for a second
season by Paramount TV.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 87 10:21:43 PST
From: PUGH@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Pepsi Trek, The Now Generation

Concerning the episode "Wesley Should Have Died!" I would like to
make a few suggestions about what they could have / should have done
to make this a classic Star Trek episode.

First of all, the natives accepted that the Enterprise crew could
take Wesley without any trouble and they couldn't understand why
Picard didn't want to.  There was some mumbley explanations, but
nothing concrete ("We have our laws, which we must break").  Also,
their God was obviously being protective of His children, but he
allowed the Federation's visit nonetheless.  We can only assume that
he wanted His children to learn something.  Too bad the writers
didn't. Finally, Picard tries to beam up, but the God critter stops
them.  Then were some mumbled apologies, and suddenly they are
allowed to beam up.  A real cop out.

What they should have dealt with was the strictness of the planetary
legal system and it's evolution into a more balanced judicial system
that could shed some light on why our judical system is so weird.
It seems that the planetary legal system was set up to get them
through a transitionary period wherein they were extremely barbaric.
Assuming that they are ready for a change, which is not a very bad
assumption since merely knowing about the Federation must start
changes, then this episode could have set some very strong legal
precedents that would have started this culture on the road to a
more flexible humane and balanced legal system.

I can imagine Kirk giving the entire party a big lecture when they
are denied the ability to beam up.  He would rant a bit about the
harshness of their legal system and how it is done more
intelligently in the Federation.  The big bopper with a disembodied
voice and/or the local "children" would say "Yeah, that makes sense.
We will think on your words, Jim Kirk" and everyone would beam out
happy and free with a moral lesson learned.

This is something that bothers me about the New Generation.  We
aren't being slapped with so many moral lessons.  Lord knows we
could use some, and that was one of the things I really liked about
the old Star Trek.  It had an overblown sense of purpose (or was
that just Shatner?) where they almost always tried to make some
outragous moral statement.  Remember "The Omega Glory," "The Cloud
Minders," "The Devil in the Dark," "The Gamesters of Triskelion" and
all those other episodes where the planetary inhabitants came away
with a lesson learned?  That's what I miss.

Jon
pugh@nmfecc.arpa
National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
PO Box 5509 L-561
Livermore, California 94550
(415) 423-4239

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 22:41:39 GMT
From: gatech!decvax!chaos!uokmax!tegarvin@RUTGERS.EDU (Theodore E
From: Garvin)
Subject: Who to keep, Who to kill

I would get rid of Geordi LaForge, who seems more of a technical
plot device than interesting character at times.  I mean, having him
look out the windows as if his visor was better equipped than ships
sensors (at that rate, why don't they run afoul of 'asteroid
storms').  Send Wesley Crusher to Starfleet Academy/Engineering
School and make him work his keester off backing up genius with
traditional sweat (Differential equations anyone?)  Ryker seems
slightly redundant.  How many captains are there on a starship
anyway?  (We know there are probably three Chief Engineers).  Keep
Data, Lt. Worf, Lt. Yar, the Betamax (but ease up on the OO!
FEELINGS!) and get some better writers (or stories at any rate).

I haven't read the writer's guide nor have I seen many of the early
episodes (I missed part two of episode/story one).  I was
speculating that perhaps Picard and Crusher had had a fling a few
years back (explaining some scenes where something more than
Captain to Chief Surgeon seemed to be involved) and that Wesley is
the result (maybe explains why Picard is bending the rules for him).
What do you think?

Ted Garvin
tegarvin@uokmax

------------------------------

Date: Fri 20 Nov 87 09:54:42-PST
From: D-ROGERS@edwards-2060.arpa
Subject: RE: VARIOUS COMMENTS ON ST-TNG

Keith Vaglienti writes:
>Think of it this way. When you go to a foreign country are you
>briefed on their laws and punishments by that country before being
>allowed to enter that country? No. Are you still expected to obey
>those laws and will you be held responsible and punishable under
>those laws if you break them? Yes. Ignorance of the law or of the
>punishments decreed by those laws is no excuse for breaking them.

   PLEASE let us not confuse LAWS (gravitational fields attract,
conservation of energy, objects in motion...) with mere RULES that
humans make regarding behavior.  While some rules are necessary for
smooth functioning of society, they are certainly not universal,
else no one would have learn new ones as they went from country to
country (is calculus different in Austria?)  Some rules are
sufficiently universal that a given society has a reasonable
expectation that foreigners know them (e.g. prohibitions against
murder), but most are merely an opportunity for the powers_that_be
to throw their weight around.  George Orwell was right, most laws
(RULES!) on the books serve mainly to insure that everyone is guilty
of *SOMETHING*, so that all the P_T_B's need is to decide who will
be the object of their attention that day.

dale

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 87 08:56:46 CST
From: "Steve C. Gonzales" <$CS1136%LSUVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Transwarp Drive

     One of the most puzzling questions people have today is about
trans- warp drive.  I think I have the answer.  I was reading _Mr.
Scott's Guide to the Enterprise_ and I saw what could be the answer.
     According to the book, during the episode called _The Tholian
Web_, Kirk with the Defiant went into a parallel universe. It was
discovered by Mr. Spock that time moves slower there than it does in
this universe.  If there could be some way to transport a Federation
ship into that paralell Universe, the ship could run in that
universe at, say, Warp 7, while in real space they would actually be
going Warp 10.  The only draw back was the effect of the space
around the Tholian Empire. It made the crew psychotic.
     Mr. Spock proposed that the warp nacelles generate such a loose
space as was experienced in the Tholian space for only a sufficient
time as to allow the Federation ship to pass into the parallel
universe.  Then, when coming out of transwarp speeds, the nacelles
would once again generate the loose space for the ship to pass into
real space.  The time it would take to generate the loose space and
allow the ship to pass through it would be so small, not even
repeated exposures to this 'portal' would affect the crew.
     Has anyone else read the book? Or maybe someone else has read a
book that gives a different idea of tranwarp drive?

Steve C. Gonzales

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 87 14:26:03 PST
From: kasper%grok.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Beverly Kasper - DTN 264-5366)
Subject: Star Trek -- Justice

>> The Edos were asked what their laws were but they were not asked
>> what their punishments were. Yar said so.

It was unclear to me that Yar knew the specifics of the law
regarding fenced off zones.  If she did, it was gross negligence on
her part not to make sure that all members of the "away team" were
aware of it.  Wesley obviously didn't realize that he'd broken a
law.  I agree that the penalty is irrelevant.

If she didn't know what was illegal, she slipped up even earlier.
She was the one who slipped up first, no matter how you look at it.

>>  Think of how many times Kirk dressed up in those idiot clothes
>>  so as not to confuse the natives.  Think of how *pissed* he was
>>  when the Klingons would give technology to the enemies.

Think of how many times Kirk and/or Spock broke out of jail, tried
to convince the natives that their point of view was wrong, etc,
etc, etc.  If the Prime Directive had been taken as seriously in the
old series as has been suggested here, Kirk would've been
court-martialed early in the first season.

>>  BTW, I do agree that death is a little stiff for the mashing of
>>  flowers, even if he *did* break the glass on the greenhouse too.

But the penalty was for going over the white fence!  He would've
been guilty, even if he hadn't touched the greenhouse.

As for the general animus toward Wesley, I don't think he's the
problem -- I think his bimboid Mother is the one who should bite it.
The kid is just acting like a kid; if he gets a consistent role
model, I think he'll develop into a reasonable human being.  Dr. C,
on the other hand, is an officer.  *SHE's* the one who shouldn't be
quivering her chin!

Beverly

------------------------------

Date: SUN NOV 22, 1987 21.02.49 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: ST-TNG - "The Battle"

*** SPOILER WARNING ***

   I'm really beginning to enjoy this series.  I really am.  For
whoever originally posted the message concerning the Ferrengi
intelligence, congrats on seeing something in the race that I
missed.  I was quite impressed with the integrity of the first
officer of the Ferrengi vessel.  First, he did not violate his
allegiance to his Captain, but when it became apparent that he was
out for vengeance against Captain Picard, he did something about it.
I felt that he acted in a much better fashion then did Riker, who
pressed the Ferrengi first officer for information that, had roles
been reversed, he would never have given up.  In addition, Riker's
comment concerning the 'gift' of Picard's old ship not being normal
for a Ferrengi because 'there was no profit in it' was way out of
line.
     My gripe with Wesley still holds.  I figure they are going to
use him whenever something that can't be explained needs to be.  And
someone ought to whip him but good.  For an ensign, especially an
acting one, he seems to do whatever he damn well pleases...
     All in all, a very entertaining and amusing episode.  I was
wrong initially, this show does have lots of potential, and most of
it is beginning to show itself.  Even the councilor is beginning to
mellow out.  Tonite she only had 2 or 3 premonitions and didn't have
a feeling of great happiness even once although she did sense great
hostility on the part of the Captain a few times...  Oh, that brings
up a question that has been bothering me a lot about the councilor.
Is there any range on her empathic power?  It seems that she can
feel anything from any distance...  Ship to ship...  Ship to
planet...  Whatever..  Just a question for anyone who might know...

*** END SPOILER ***

     Also, along the lines of the poster who wanted to know what the
call letters NCC stood for I have a question...  The Enterprise,
along with all of the other ships in the federation are preceeded
with the letters USS.  Now, in modern (our time) day, doesn't USS
stand for United States Something or other???  Why would a
federation vessel for the United Federation of Planets carry the
initials for a country that made up only a small part of it's
population?  Wouldn't the prefix UFP have been more appropriate?

Thanx,

Mitchel Ludwig
Box 72 Lehigh Univ.
Beth, Pa.  18015
BITnet : MFL1@Lehigh.bitnet
PHONE: 215-758-1381
INTnet : Kmfludw@vax1.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 22:12 -0800
From: Paul Durham <paul%sydney.cdn%ubc.csnet@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: "Wesley Must Die" vs. the Prime Directive

If one uses episodes of the original Star Trek as a precedent, it is
clear that the Prime Directive does NOT require Star Fleet personnel
to submit to arbitrary but legal punishment on foreign planets.

Example 1

Consider the episode where Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam down to the
planet where the Roman Empire still rules. They are thrown into the
gladiatorial ring, spoil the show, and are sentenced to death
(LEGALLY). KS&M resort to outright violence to escape, aided by a
local power failure triggered by Scotty from the Enterprise. Kirk,
in his report, states that none of these actions violated the P.D.,
although a military attack would have.

Example 2

Kirk, despite warnings, beams down to a planet which claims to be at
war ( but does not appear to be ) and is informed that the entire
crew of the Enterprise have been deemed casualties in an Atari-style
war and must be disintegrated. Does Kirk comply ? Of course not !
Not only does he secure his own escape, but he trashes the
disintegrators and destroys the computer which runs the simulated
war. Note that this "war" had been running with legal sanction for
centuries.

There are other episodes one could cite but these two come to mind
as the most relevant to the point. Unless the Federation has wimped
out in 85 years, it seems clear that the Prime Directive is aimed at
colonialist- type actions and does not bind crew members to submit
to foreign systems of justice repugnant to the Fed's own values.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 23-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #510
Date: 23 Nov 87 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #510
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Nov 87 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #510
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 23 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 510

Today's Topics:

            Books - Calvino (2 msgs) & Clarke (3 msgs) &
                    Delany & King & Myers & Niven (2 msgs) &
                    Silverberg (2 msgs) & Spinrad &
                    Wolfe (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 11:18:56 GMT
From: ccdbryan@deneb.ucdavis.edu (0058;0000003321;300;9999;96;)
Subject: Re: response to review of Gibson

>Sorry -- I didn't post them because I figured most people would
>flame me for talking about non-SF books on the SF board, but I
>guess that is nothing new.  Here is a list of titles and authors. I
>liked *most* but not *all* of these very much, in fact, much better
>than the majority of SF I have read. Too much SF is too shallow (in
>my opinion), especially after reading many of these:
>
>_t zero_                       Italo Calvino
>
>Some of these may or may not be considered SF (Calvino, Lem,
>Vonnegut). None of them are at all like what most people call
>"science fiction." They are listed

Odd that you should mention Italo Calvino.  I once took a Lit course
taught by Kim Stanley Robinson (_A Memory of Whiteness_, _The Wild
Shore_) and one of the last books he had us read was _Invisible
Cities_ by Calvino.  Have you read this?  I don't know if _t zero_
is anything like IC, but I think that Calvino is writing science
fiction, at least in some part.

Bryan McDonald
ccdbryan!deneb!ucdavis!ucbvax

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 21:17:47 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Allan Terry)
Subject: Is Calvino SF?

Somebody mentioned Invisible Cities and T-zero by Calvino, and asked
if he writes science ficition.  Calvino is much too good of a writer
to confine to any single genre but much of what he wrote would be
interesting to folk on this bboard.  Invisible Cities is Calvino in
his philosophical mood, it is much like a series of prose "poems" or
short stories expressing an idea or mood.  T-zero is a bunch of
short stories written like literature but with scientific backdrops.
For example, a story about beings playing marbles with electrons and
how one gets nice shiny ones from a white hole.  Calvino often
writes with a strong dose of "conceptual art", he will create some
artificial device to order his story.  In Invisible Cities, every
chapter is a city described by Marco Polo.  In another book, the
next turn of plot was determined by the draw of tarot cards from a
deck.  Sounds weird, but he is such an accomplished writer that he
pulls it off in fine style.

Perhaps more accessable are his older books like The Count in the
Trees, The Nonexistant Knight, and a rather Baron von Munchausenish
book involving an Italian nobleman who was hit by a cannonball in
battle.  It split the unfortunate into his good half and his bad
half, each hopping along on one leg.  They both return to the family
lands where it is left to the reader to decide which is preferable
(the good half is unsufferable).  All three are great fun, The Count
in the Trees is probably the best.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 15:04:40 GMT
From: mimsy!cvl!decuac!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan
From: Faidley)
Subject: New Clarke

Last Friday I was at a mall looking around and walked into a
Waldenbooks as I am usually wont to do.  I always check to see if on
the off chance there is anything new out.  Much to my surprise there
was.  It had not even been placed out on the racks yet but was on
those little carts they have.  I saw this book and went
"Ohwowohwowohwowohwow!!!", picked it up, placed it on the counter,
and payed for it before I even knew what I was doing.  I had heard
that this book was coming out but it wasn't supposed to be out until
early next year.  The book is "2061:oddessey three" by Arthur C.
Clarke.  He is one of my favorite authors and I am dying to read his
new book.  The store manager said that he was also surprised to see
it arrive and that Del Rey released it early.  It is in hardback and
almost 300 pages long.

The cover by Michael Whelan is stunning, I'd like to get a poster of
it.  It has an etheral image of Dave Bowman in his space suit with a
monolith behind him with the image of HAL superimposed on it (the
little rectangle with the red lens).  All around them in the
background are other monoliths and they appear to be on Europa,
although the book could prove me wrong.  Like I said, truly stunning
art.

The main character is once again Heywood Floyd and he is still alive
thanks to living in space for a long time.  The first chapter is
devoted to explaining the political situation of the world after the
birth of Lucifer, the new sun that used to be Jupiter.  The second
chapter tells us why this book is taking place in the year 2061.
Floyd is going to be on the ship that is doing the flyby of Halley's
Comet as it makes its return to our solar system in the year, that's
right, you guessed it, 2061.  So now we know why the book takes
place in 2061 as opposed to any other year.  The jacket sleave
doesn't tell much about the plot of the book and I haven't gotten
any further.

I hope that anybody who reads this will post their opinions as I am
curious as to your reactions.

juan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 04:01:43 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re: New Clarke

Sounds good, but I'm skeptical.  Not talking about the movies, I
liked both 2001 and 2010.  In 2010, though, the main point of
conflict was between the humans (vis a vis USSR vs USA and the order
for HAL to lie which caused it to go psycho) What sorts of conflicts
can be set up now that everything is peachy-keen on earth.  As much
as I like Clarke's other work, I don't want to see the Oddessy (?)
series turn into that sort of "only minor conflicts between
individual characters with most of the emphasis on exposing
interesting concepts" fiction.  What I'm really saying is that I
don't want to find that 2061 blends in with Clarke's other fiction.

But I'll spend the 17 + dollars to buy the thing anyway.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 02:46:37 GMT
From: bellcore!ulysses!whuts!mjs@RUTGERS.EDU (SCHEUTZOW)
Subject: 2061: odyssey 3

This is a review of: _2061: odyssey three_ by Arthur Clarke

Unfortunately, this is an average story; the most that I can say is
that _2010: odyssey two_ looks good in comparison.  This book is
based in the society built up in 2001 and 2010, but fails to
continue the story line of these two books.  Clarke's (apparent)
interest in Halley's Comet fills a great part of this novel.

Is it a spoiler to tell people what the book is NOT about?

The jacket blurb could be construed as false advertising; it says:

"And Hayword Floyd, survivor of two previous encounters with the
mysterious monoliths, must once again confront Dave Bowman, ...  a
newly independent HAL, and the power of an alien race."

The monolith has no role in this story (that is, it doesn't *do*
anything), and there is no alien race.  Both Bowman and HAL have
such a small part, you'd think they were tacked on merely to justify
the title.  Neither one appears until the last 3 pages of the book.

Mike
whuts!mjs

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 17:08:46 GMT
From: vax1!ag4@RUTGERS.EDU (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Re: Delany

Samual Delany and a friend of his read about 1 1/2 hours worth of
excerpts from _Neveryona_ at Cornell about a year ago.  When I went
to the bookstore to buy the book, it had recently gone out of print
and used bookstores don't seem to have it.  Is there enough of a tie
in between _Neveryona_ and his new book that the publishers are apt
to re-release it?

Anne

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 07:48:39 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Story Request/Running Man

From:   killer!billw    (Bill Wisner)
> The Running Man is based on Stephen King's book of the same name.
> It was actually more of novellette length, and it was published
> under the pseudonym Richard Bachman. If you want to read it, find
> "The Bachman Books" which is a volume of four such novelettes.

Novelettes??  They are all full novels. The original (separate)
edition of THE RUNNING MAN runs over 200 paperback pages. Now,
relative to the usual size of King's novels, this may seem like just
a novelette, but it's not.

(Deja vu. Didn't I just say something like this about Poul
Anderson?)

And, by the way, you don't have to buy THE BACHMAN BOOKS to get just
THE RUNNING MAN. It's been reissued separately as a movie tie-in.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 17:26:50 GMT
From: vax1!ag4@RUTGERS.EDU (Anne Louise Gockel)
Subject: Re: Mapping the World of Fiction (_Silverlock_)

At one point, I tried creating a list of the various references in
Silverlock.  Many of them I recognized, many I recognized as
references but did not know what they referred to.  I ran out of
time to pursue it after just a couple of chapters, although a friend
gave me a copy of a partial list that she compiled.

Has anyone else ever compiled a list of the references in
_Silverlock_?  Anyone interested in helping to do so?  Has such a
list ever been published?

Anne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 87 17:42:12 EST
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Wayne Barber)
Subject: Niven's continuity

A recent poster asked whether Louis Wu of _Ringworld_ was Beowulf
Schaeffer's 'son'.  Someone else said it couldn't be true because
there wasn't enough time for Louis to age 200 years before
_Ringworld_ takes place.  It was something I wasn't sure about
either so I went back to the sources to find out.

Schaeffer was not allowed to have children on Earth because he was
an albino (bad genes).  So Carlos Wu, an amazingly intelligent
mathematician with unlimited birth rights, agreed to father children
with Schaeffer's wife Sharrol.  Schaeffer leaves Earth while this
goes on.  As he is heading back to Earth he stops on Jinx and meets
Carlos, who has just left Earth.  Carlos says, 'I left after Louis
was born.'  This was in The Borderland of Sol, anthologized in
_Tales of Known Space_.  Also found in _ToKS_ is a timeline (which
has to be accurate because Jerry Boyajian helped with it...read the
Author's Note) that shows The Borderland of Sol taking place 200
years before _Ringworld_.  Obviously enough time has passed and
Beowulf Schaeffer is the 'father' of Louis Wu.

Now comes the confusing part: Why didn't Louis Wu know about
Schaeffer's exploits in *Long Shot*?  Why did he know so little
about the Core Explosion?  Unless Schaeffer was allergic to
boosterspice, he should have been around for quite some time while
Louis was growing up (until maturity somewhere in the mid 100's
anyway).  These are the inconsistencies in the story that always
left me wondering if this was the same Louis Wu.  Carlos had lots of
kids; could this be another Louis from a different mother around the
same time?  Seems like too much of a coincidence.

I like consistency in the books I read, but I like Niven's stuff,
too.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 87 17:37:15 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Niven's continuity

From:   portland.bitnet!BARBER
> Now comes the confusing part: Why didn't Louis Wu know about
> Schaeffer's exploits in *Long Shot*?  Why did he know so little
> about the Core Explosion?

Recall, *no one* in Known Space, except for the Puppeteers, knew
about the Core Explosion, or even about the Hyperdrive II. It's
quite likely that the Puppeteers bought off Bey to keep both items a
secret, for whatever reasons. After all, if everyone in Known Space
knew about it, the Puppeteers' flight to the Magellanic Clouds might
be interfered with. This, of course, would not do.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 11:45:20 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Silverberg's _Majipoor_ books

U00254@HASARA5.BITNET writes:
>my question of about two months back : about a year ago I read in a
>magazine that there will be a FOURTH Majipoor novel. Does anyone
>out there know about this? (Chuq???)

   I would be very interested in finding out about such a book.
Also, I saw in a pamphlet somewhere that listed a book called
something like _The Desert of Stolen Dreams_ as being authored by
Silverberg.  It was published after _Lord Valentine's Castle_ so the
timing is right.  What exactly is this book?  Is it related to the
other three Majipoor books, or is the title just a coincidence?

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 14:58:59 GMT
From: gatech!hubcap!mbrown@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Brown)
Subject: Re: Silverberg's _Majipoor_ books

hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) says:
> Also, I saw in a pamphlet somewhere that listed a book called
> something like _The Desert of Stolen Dreams_ as being authored by
> Silverberg.

If my (frequently faulty) memory is correct, "The Desert of Stolen
Dreams" is a short story

** SPOILER **

It is the story in which the King of Dreams becomes a power

** End of Spoiler **

I think that it is one of the stories in _The Majipoor Chronicles_.

Mike Brown
Department of Computer Science
Clemson University
Clemson SC 29634-1906
(803)656-2838
UUCP: ...gatech!hubcap!mbrown
Internet: mbrown@hubcap.clemson.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Nov 87 17:58:08 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Re:Child of Fortune

aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry)  asks:
>Has anybody else read Spinrad's Child of Fortune?

Yes but judging by the silence about this book nobody else has.
This is a little sad because it has a well imagined future world
complete with culture, language, characters and mythology...
Briefly it disturbed me a little, shocked me, made laugh a little,
and also touched me a bit too.

I've read The Void Captain's Tale and recommend it.

Dick Botting
paaaaar@calstate.bitnet
PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU(until december87)
Comp Sci, CSUSB
5500 State Univ Pkwy
San Bernardino, CA 92407

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 04:13:34 GMT
From: ranjit@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Ranjit Bhatnagar)
Subject: re:  Gene Wolfe

I don't have posting priviledges, but I thought that the readers of
rec.arts.sf-lovers would like to hear that the Science Fiction Book
Club has Gene Wolfe's "The Castle of the Otter" in print again, as
well as "The Urth of the New Sun" and the 4 older Urth books.  If
you could post this...

Ranjit

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 22:15:24 GMT
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pittsburgh.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Subject: New Gene Wolfe Book

I notice the SF Book Club is offering "The Urth of the New Sun" in
their next shipment.  Hope it is as good as the first 4 volumes.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 87 09:56:02 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Urth of the New Sun

>Just finished Gene Wolfe's latest, Urth of the New Sun (Tor
>Hardcover).  Written very much in the style of the three
>predecessors. Some, but not everything, explained (at least to my
>satisfaction). More complete review with minor spoilers later also
>review of Jack Vance's latest.

Huh ?!? The *series* is called Book of the New Sun. The fourth book
is called *Citadel of the Autarch*. I have never heard of UotNS. Is
it the fifth ?

Kai

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #511
Date: 30 Nov 87 0907-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #511
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Nov 87 0907-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #511
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 511

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: SUN NOV 22, 1987 05.02.29 EST
From: "Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: STTNG - Wesley, The PD, and other ramblings

"scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)" writes :
> Well, it was pretty clear to me throughout the original Star Trek
> that the Prime Directive was more a suggestion than a law.  Even
> when the Enterprise crew were more or less being careful about
> things, they would eventually reveal themselves as star-faring
> races.  They seem to always end up saying "the prime directive is
> nice and all, but X will die if we don't {use our phasers, tell
> them who we are, etc}.

  Actually, the prime directive was VERY specific about
non-interferance.  In one episode (God - can't remember the name...
We plebum nactum...  Yangs and Conns.. ???) Kirk is forced to arrest
a close friend and Starship Captain for his violation of the pd.  Of
course there were episodes where Kirk was forced to reveal the fact
that he was of a star-faring race.  It usually was for a damn good
reason though.  Usually it was either to save the natives from
destruction (For the World is Hollow-And I have touched the Sky for
one) or to equalize an imbalance caused by either the Federation or
its Enemies (The Book is a good one... :^)

Someone (Killed the poor devils name :-() wrote :
> One other thing: At least in STTNG, the captain of the ship
> doesn't go around risking his life every episode.  What was worse,
> most of the time, the Captain and the XO went together.

  Well, since they WERE the main characters, it would have been a
real pain to leave them behind.  Plus, in STTNG, they seem to be
using alot more of a starring cast, and also alot more of interplay
between the ship and whatever planet they may be on.

"Andrew Vaught <29284843%WSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>" wrote :
> Star Trek just does not have `depth'. Surely there must be some
> precedent for a member of a landing party unknowingly breaking
> some (possibly ridiculous) local law, and therefore starfleet
> should have some set procedure for Picard to follow. Instead,
> Picard wings it, like this is the first time that something like
> this ever happened.  It also took Picard long enough to realize
> that the Prime Directive deals with interfering with cultural
> development. Simply beaming down to a planet interferes with the
> society-- traffic jams caused by the crew, souvenier vendors
> coming out with starfleet uniforms...  No, the Prime Directive is
> just to prevent stuff like giving phaser rifles to cultures that
> aren't ready for them.

  I think that I, as the 'Wesley Must Die' poster, must agree and
disagree with you.  Of course there is a precedent. Kirk had the
same damn problems 70 or 80 years previously.  But 1) they worked
well once, why not use them again, and 2) if they were to use
precedents for all of the things that happen, the show would be 5
minutes long (counting commercails ]^).

     Opening Credits

     Space - the final frontier -

     Helmsman : Sir, we are being held prisoner by a tractor beam
                from that solar system.
     Captain  : Data, what did Captain Kirk do in a situation like
                this?
     Data     : Well sir, he would have implemented what is now known
                as plan delta 5.
     Captain  : Well then, helmsman, implement plan delta 5 and lets
                be off...

     Closing Credits

And finally "iuvax!bsu-cs!drwho@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil P. Marsh)" writes :

> dkrause@UCIVMSA.BITNET writes:
>> more".  But one thing they didn't address is that Wes did violate
>> the laws of the Edos (I hope I remember that correctly) on the
>> planet of
> BUT!  Do you not also remember the fact that the Edo did not fully
> disclose their laws and punishments when asked?  The punishment of
> death is not a deterrent when the punishment and crime are not
> known -- OR ARE WITHELD!

  Neal,
  Have you ever driven down Dunhams Corner Road in East Brunswick?
Lovely road...  Real dark...  Real new..  No speed limit posting.
Well now, since no speed limit, whataya figgure???  55?  45?  It's
in a residential area so we'll call it 35.  Nope, 25 it is.  Life's
a gamble.  How many laws do you (or any of us) actually know.  And
those we do know, how many know the penalty for committing them.
And we're a democracy.  Think how it is elsewhere.  Now Edos was
definitely not a democratic planet.  You did what you wanted.
Controlled anarchy was a decent term for it.  In an anarchy, the
rule is as it is.  If god says it's so. It's so.  The fact that no
natives told the crew the penalty is a cop out.  It was their job to
find out what the penalty was.  They didn't ask, did they?
  I don't mean to sound like a pain in the pasotsk, but rules are
rules.  They were a little harsh, but they were the rules.  Would
you let a man from another country get away with a crime merely
because he was unaware of it's penalty?  The fact that the
Enterprise crew didn't know what would happen to them if they
violated the laws of the planet was a moot point, they DID know what
those laws were, and Wesley broke one of them.

   Besides, as everyone keeps saying...  I REALLY wanted to see them
waste him..  Or at least he could have had some fun with the
blonde...  What a wimp...

Mitchel Ludwig
Box 72 Lehigh Univ.
Beth, Pa.  18015
BITnet : MFL1@Lehigh.bitnet
PHONE: 215-758-1381
INTnet : Kmfludw@vax1.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 87 06:12:00 GMT
From: paul%sydney.cdn%ubc.CSNET@RELAY.CS.NET (Paul Durham)
Subject: "Wesley Must Die" vs. the Prime Directive

If one uses episodes of the original Star Trek as a precedent, it is
clear that the Prime Directive does NOT require Star Fleet personnel
to submit to arbitrary but legal punishment on foreign planets.

Example 1

Consider the episode where Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam down to the
planet where the Roman Empire still rules. They are thrown into the
gladiatorial ring, spoil the show, and are sentenced to death (
LEGALLY ). KS&M resort to outright violence to escape, aided by a
local power failure triggered by Scotty from the Enterprise. Kirk,
in his report, states that none of these actions violated the P.D.,
although a military attack would have.

Example 2

Kirk, despite warnings, beams down to a planet which claims to be at
war ( but does not appear to be ) and is informed that the entire
crew of the Enterprise have been deemed casualties in an Atari-style
war and must be disintegrated. Does Kirk comply ? Of course not !
Not only does he secure his own escape, but he trashes the
disintegrators and destroys the computer which runs the simulated
war. Note that this "war" had been running with legal sanction for
centuries.

There are other episodes one could cite but these two come to mind
as the most relevant to the point. Unless the Federation has wimped
out in 85 years, it seems clear that the Prime Directive is aimed at
colonialist- type actions and does not bind crew members to submit
to foreign systems of justice repugnant to the Fed's own values.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 87 02:21:17 GMT
From: strac01@rocky.oswego.edu (Doug Eckersley)
Subject: Re: Transwarp Drive

I have read that book, and that explanation.  That book also goes
into detail about the transwarp on the Excelsior.  I forget company
names and so forth.  Apparently one company built transwarp drives,
and built them into huge nacelles, which were later incorporated
into the Excelsior.  At the same time, however, that company's
competitor was researching the construction of FTWDs in Enterprise
class size engine nacelles.  They built them, and incorporated them
into the Enterprise class USS Ti-Ho.  The Ti-Ho, the only Enterprise
class starship with transwarp, later was renamed the USS Enterprise,
NCC-1701-A.  As for NCC-1701-D, I don't know.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 18:39:04 GMT
From: hill@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Curtis Hill)
Subject: Re: Who to keep, Who to kill

tegarvin@uokmax.UUCP (Theodore E Garvin) writes:
>Send Wesley Crusher to Starfleet Academy/Engineering School and
>make him work his keester off backing up genius with traditional
>sweat (Differential equations anyone?)

Could they be aging him enough so Kirk is still the youngest to
attend Starfleet Academy??  I mean, he's already the youngest person
ever to hold rank.(At least to my knowledge.)

>I haven't read the writer's guide nor have I seen many of the early
>episodes (I missed part two of episode/story one).  I was
>speculating that perhaps Picard and Crusher had had a fling a few
>years back (explaiining some scenes where something more than
>Captain to Chief Surgeon seemed to be involved) and that Wesley is
>the result (maybe explains why Picard is bending the rules for
>him).

Sounds like a winner to me.

Curtis Hill
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 87 20:18:43 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@Q2.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question on the Prime Directive

I think the prime directive was one of the most inconsistently
maintained features of the old series.  There was a lot of talk
about it; a certain amount of effort to maintain it (the use of
native costume and some limited attempt to learn native custom); and
even a couple of episodes ("Bread and Circuses", "the Omega Factor")
to show to what terrible end they would come who violated it.

But let the landing party (which was usually most of the bridge
crew) be threatened, and the prime directive suddenly vanished into
the breeze -- anything was legitimate that got our friends and
heroes out of danger.  Kirk would simply take the opportunity to
point out why Federation values and thinking were so much better
than the native ones anyway, and that they were really doing the
native culture a favour by forcing it into "maturing" a bit.
Charming.  I think "A Private Little War" was one of the few where
that didn't happen, and it didn't happen because of a directive
particular to that planet, which Kirk himself, as a lieutenant, had
been instrumental in causing.  (They still interfered; but since the
Klingons had already done so, there wasn't much else for it.)

Tell me something, though: the discussions of the new series before
it came out suggested that the old military orientation of the ship
was going to be modified, so that Enterprise would be more of a
research and exploration ship than she had been, and that the
importance of military rank would be diminished.  Is this turning
out to be so, or is it once again primarily an interstellar gunboat,
with microscopes available for when things are quiet?  I would much
prefer the former, but the discussion makes it sound as if it's the
latter.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 87 01:27:47 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: STTNG - Wesly Must Die

MFL1@LEHIGH.BITNET ("Mitchel Ludwig") writes:
>ACK!  Let's be serious people.  The Prime Directive states that
>under NO circumstances should the evolution of a planet be
>interfered with by a member of Star Fleet.  This means that Wesly
>should have been left to die.

This is true.  Remember in "Bread and Circuses", when Kirk
acknowledges to the head Romanoid that Star Fleet officers take an
oath which states that they will die before violating the Prime
Directive?

malc

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 09:16:00 EST
From: "Ron Jarrell" <jarrellra@vtcs1>
Subject: Re: Picard being a wimp on a bench waiting for a bus.

From: <DDC4058%TAMSTAR.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Darian)
> The captain has very few leadership qualities of the "captain of a
> ship".  He isn't invulnerable as Cap. Kirk almost was.  He doesn't
> seem to hold the undying respect of HIS crew. He doesn't even seem
> to be superior to any of his officers. [...]  The running of this
> ship seems to be more decenteralized than Star Trek.  Even the
> layout of the bridge displays this. [...] On Star Trek it was
> obvious who was in charge.  Kirk was the focus of your attention.

But that exactly what you're supposed to feel!  The new Enterprise
is a return to the original goal of Star Trek, "To boldly go where
no one has gone before" (or "To boldly split inifinitives where no
one has split them before" if you prefer) not "To boldly blow the
hell out of any ship we happen to find".  Star Fleet was taking the
"Fleet" seriously by the movies.  The Enterprise was using more and
more of her Heavy Cruiser side and less of the Exploratory Vessel.
Well, the New Enterprise is an Exploratory Vessel.  The Wagon Train
of the stars.  She has a 10 year mission.  Some kids could be born
and raised on the Enterprise and never see the heart of the
Federation or their parent's home worlds. (Doubtful, since they seem
to be sticking close to the borders, but possible.)  Picard is not
the absolute military commander of the Enterprise during her normal
duties, and the bridge arrangement shows this. Con and Ops basically
run the ship, and background crew handles routine duties, and the
"council" (Captain, First, and Counselor) make informed decisions.
In the middle of a crisis Picard follows procedure and drops
everything, dragging the entire alpha shift crew with him into the
briefing room to discuss what's going on and their best
alternatives, always remembering he's got 1000 people depending on
him, a great many of which aren't even Star Fleet.  Note that when
he needs to he asserts the fact that he IS the final say, and that
he only has to listen to their advice, not take it.  But in a battle
this just won't cut it. So, off we go to the battle bridge and split
the ship into battle mode.  Battle bridge look familiar?  The
captain is definitley the center of attention.  It's a small
no-nonsense place.  Everyone is right next to the captain where he
can give them orders or get info, and they seem to be much better
braced as well.  The battle bridge is a redressed set from the Star
Trek IV movie, it's the old enterprise bridge. (I think the
Stargazer used the same set...) When the crisis is over, it's back
to the council room again...

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 21:55:41 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Oh Captain!  Oh Doctor!  Oh Captain!  Oh Doctor!

rnpantos@watmath.waterloo.edu (Rogger) writes:
>>Picard and Crusher romanticaly involved?  Not likely.  In the
>>first episode it was mentioned that the doctor's husband had
>>serverd alongside of Picard until her husband died in some
>>unmentioned horrible way.
>If you ever watched old war movies (The Dawn Patrol comes to mind)
>you'd know that that's a standard setup for a love triangle.

Anyway, you should rewind your mental record (ST fans are good at
that sort of thing) and recall the scene where Picard and Wesley
first meet.  After *that* scene, I'd bet a weeks pay on Wesley's
parentage.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 24 NOV 87 04:09-PST
From: dkrause%UCIVMSA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: ST: "Justice"

From: kasper%grok.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Beverly Kasper)
>But the penalty was for going over the white fence!  He would've
>been guilty, even if he hadn't touched the greenhouse.

I don't think so.  As I remember one of the Edos said that "we have
barriers as REMINDERS where not to go", or something similar.

Douglas Krause
ARPANET: dkrause@orion.cf.uci.edu
BITNET: DJKrause@ucivmsa
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucivax!orion!dkrause

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #512
Date: 30 Nov 87 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #512
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Nov 87 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #512
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 512

Today's Topics:

             Books - Bunch & Clarke (3 msgs) & Delany &
                     Dickson & Duane & Ford &
                     Panshin (2 msgs) & Peirce

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 87 16:48:50 PST
From: hhaller@pnet01.cts.com (Harry Haller)
Subject: Another open question

What ever became of David R. Bunch? (aka Daryll F. Groupe) He wrote
some beautiful stuff set in his futuristic dystopia Moderan, and
published it in Fantastic in the early to mid '60's. Last I heard he
was an enlisted man in the USAF. Any further data?

Thanks,
Harry

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 21:24:35 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: 2061: odyssey 3

I don't remember where I read this but....

"There is absolutely no truth to the rumor that Arthur C. Clarke has
accepted an advance for "2,000,000,001: The Absolutely Positively
Penultimate Odyssey".

Dani Zweig
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 87 01:05:58 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@Q2.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Clarke

>Not talking about the movies, I liked both 2001 and 2010.  In 2010,
>though, the main point of conflict was between the humans (vis a
>vis USSR vs USA and the order for HAL to lie which caused it to go
>psycho)

Only in the film, which was one of my great disappointments in it.
The situation in the book had got well past that.  They even spoke
of how different things had become, that a Russian could now joke
about the treatment of Andrei Sakharov, for whom the Leonov's drive
was named (remember, when it was written, Sakharov was still exiled
in Gorky).

It really bothered me, because one of Clarke's great abilities is to
raise his sights beyond more mundane problems, and take on truly
enormous things (like suggestions of an anonymous race searching the
universe for signs of emerging intelligence, and giving it a hand
where it needed it).  The film didn't seem able to match him; it
made it seem that the real story was the slapping of the Terran
powers' wrists.

The real story in 2010 was the discovery of what the monoliths'
creators were doing with Jupiter, and that the Leonov managed to be
there to see it.  That the US and USSR were thrown together to do it
seemed to me hardly necessary to the purpose, and probably more
intended to suggest that this is a time when Terran culture is
slightly less adolescent, and better able to pay attention to
external concerns.

So I don't see that Clarke has lost a plot device, since it wasn't
he who used it in the first place.  If anybody wants to film it (are
you listening, Stanley?), *they* will certainly have lost something
extraneous on which to fall back, which seems all to the good to me.

(And 2001 is still my favourite film.  Need at least a 5-metre
screen to watch it, though.)

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 21:34:58 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith)
Subject: Re: New Clarke

I haven't read Clarke's new book, but the release of it and seeing
the film 2001 again recently has made me go back and look at the
book 2001 and 2010.  And now I'm wondering if Clarke wrote 2010.

Clarke had many times said that writing a sequel to 2001 was not
something he was going to do.  Yet 2001 was written.

2010 (the book) is a sequel to the film 2001, not the book.  2010
refers to events from the film: the Discovery is at Jupiter (not
Saturn), Dave Bowman had to re-enter the ship through the emergency
airlock (which never happened in the book), etc.

The style of the two books is different, with 2010 relying on lots
of dialogue or monologue, while 2001 has very little.

In 2001 the Discovery's centrifuge is described as being located
along the equator of the sphere at the front of the ship, making it
horizontal.  In 2010 the derelict Discovery is tumbling end-over-end
about its midpoint, due to the transference of angular momentum from
the once-spinning centrifuge which was slowed to a stop by friction.
Clarke is no slouch at physics, but I am, so correct me if I'm wrong
here: if the ship were tumbling end-over-end wouldn't that imply
that the centrifuge was vertical within the sphere (went from pole
to pole), and if the ship's tumbling was due to the slowing of the
centrifuge wouldn't it be rotating about the center of the sphere
rather than the ship's midpoint (near the AE-35 unit)?  I can't
believe that Clarke would take the time to imagine the tumbling ship
and its cause, and still get it wrong.  What's going on here?

I haven't read an interview with Clarke about 2010, but I've almost
convinced myself that he did an outline for the publisher, who then
paid Mr. Clarke handsomely and let some hack bang out the novel.

Jay Smith
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 05:38:35 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: Delany

Chip Delany is alive and well. He appeared at Duke University
earlier this month to speak for a class and then for the general
public.

The sequel to _Stars in My Pocket_ has stalled out at page 114; he
doesn't expect to complete it within a year. Look for 1990 at the
earliest.

_The Bridge of Lost Desires_ was probably not distributed
extensively to Waldens and Dalton's because it's a hardcover from an
author who doesn't have a fanatical hard-cover-locust following;
besides, wasn't it from Arbor House, a company known for its crappy
distribution?

_Neveryona_ seems to be out of print, and there's no sign of it
coming back soon. It's not too hard to find in used book shops,
though.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 00:34:12 GMT
From: hplabs!sun!mandrill!hal!ncoast!allbery@RUTGERS.EDU (Brandon
From: Allbery)
Subject: Re: Dorsai!

BREEBAAR@HLERUL5.BITNET writes:
>Given the fact that I like almost everything I have read by Gordon
>R. Dickson.  Given the fact that I have read only the first book in
>his Dorsai-series.  Given the fact that I did not like it at all
>(unrealistic, unsympathetic characters, and I don't really like war
>stories (though I like Starship Trooper and am probably the only
>person other than R.A.H. himself who does))
>
>Given these facts: will I like any other books in the series, and
>if yes which ones ?

You may have problems.  Not with the war stories, but with the
believability.  DIckson's series including DORSAI! is not a series
about the Dorsai, or about war: it is the Childe Cycle, and is about
mankind maturing as a race.  I *strongly* suggest that you read
NECROMANCER if you want to get some idea of what is going on.

*SPOILERS* follow

Believability: Yes, the Dorsai are "superhuman".  But not really;
you must understand the history of the Childe Cycle universe.  In
NECROMANCER, human society (like ours but slightly more futuristic)
fragments with the discovery of a relatively safe means of
interstellar travel.  Humanity splinters into a number of Splinter
Cultures, each of which picks some particular aspect of humanity and
makes it the primary component of society.  Among the Splinter
Cultures are, by planet:

* Dorsai -- mercenary warriors
* Harmony, Association ("Friendlies") -- religion
* Newton, Venus -- scientists
* Mara, Kultis ("Exotics") -- the mind (psychology and parapsychology)

Some of the lesser Cultures:

* Ste. Marie -- farmers; also religion (all Catholics)
* Ceta -- merchants, business
* Dunnin's World -- fishermen
* Coby -- miners
* Cassida -- technocrats

The reason for the splintering of humanity is described in
NECROMANCER.  It amounts to a need for humanity to expand its
horizons.  While the Dorsai are the most visible (to readers) of the
Splinter Cultures, they are not the only culture examined; see, for
example, SOLDIER, ASK NOT -- referring to the tendency of Friendlies
to gain interstellar credit by acting as low-priced mercenaries
(sword fodder for those who can't afford the Dorsai) -- which
examines the culture of the Friendlies.  At the current time, only
these two have been fully explored, although we get looks at Ste.
Marie ("Brothers") and Ceta ("Lost Dorsai").

The most recent book, THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA, looks at the surviving
Splinter Cultures in some depth; Ceta has been taken over by the
"Others", and the scientists of Newton and technocrats of Cassida
have pretty much faded out of existence, but we see the three major
Splinters (Dorsai, Friendlies, Exotics) plus Coby.

More is on its way; expect it to concentrate on what Dickson
considers to be the three-legged stool upon which humanity rests --
war, religion, and (for lack of a better term) psychology.  The
entire cycle ranges from Sir John Hawkmoon (14th century) to the end
of the "trilogy" started by THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA (the names are
currently CHANTRY GUILD and CHILDE) (24th century).  It is expected
to be by no means tilted toward war; among others, Dickson has
planned a book about Leonardo DaVinci as a "cusp" of the growth of
mankind.  (It is also relevant that THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA makes it
clear that the Dorsai will be destroyed as a culture.)

Dickson describes his plans for the Childe Cycle in the Preface to
THE DORSAI COMPANION.  (Again, the Dorsai have always been the most
visible to readers.  I don't know why; I'd *love* to see a book
about the Exotics.  But it's the Dorsai books that sell.)

Brandon S. Allbery
necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu
{hoptoad,harvard!necntc,{sun,cbosgd}!mandrill!hal,uunet!hnsurg3}
   !ncoast!allbery

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 87 14:48:29 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Diane Duane

Does anybody out there have any reasonably accurate release dates
for THE DOOR INTO SUMMER--oops, SUNSET-- or the next book in the
Wizard series?  That is, anything more accurate then "sometime in
'88."

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 05:52:09 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: How Much For Just The Planet?

ST801179@BROWNVM.BITNET writes:
>Kaden thought of the old Klingon proverb.  "Fool me once, shame on
>you: fool me twice, prepare to die."

The Klingon saying is actually "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me
twice, prepare for doom!", which is much more poetic, don'cha think?

  While there has been some discussion of the most recent Star Trek
novel _How Much For Just The Planet_, there has been even more
discussion of the dedication, which names "Janet and Rick, Diane and
Peter, Pamela and David", all of whom have been identified:

From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan.cca.bbn.com>
>Janet and Rick are Kagans.  Janet wrote one Star Trek novel,
>"Uhura's Song", Janet and Ricky are long-time SF fans who live in
>New Jersey.

>[Diane and Peter are] Duane and Morwood.   ---Jon Meltzer

  Diane Duane and Peter Morwood are both established writers; both
have done work in _Star Trek_, and both have recently married the
other.

>Pamela and David WHO?
>Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennett and David Dyer-Bennett (buyt I think I said
>that once before). She's an author and he's a spouse of an author and
>"well known Minneapolis fan" according to SFChron. He also runs
>Terraboard, a SF bbs in Minneapolis.
>   Chuq von Rospach

However, no one seems to have noticed that Neil, who is credited in
the dedication as "having wanted a walk-on" is Neil Caiden, after
whom the Klingon captain is named.

By the way, the book is first-rate, absolutely top-notch humor. I do
not buy Trek books, but I do buy John M. "Mike" Ford without fail.
If you want even more incapacitating laughter than _How Much_
provided, I recommend his game module for Paranoia. It is entitled
"The Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues".

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 87 16:48:50 PST
From: hhaller@pnet01.cts.com (Harry Haller)
Subject: Another open question

What ever became of Alexei Panshin's Anthony Villers series? Did he
ever write The Universal Pantograph or not? If he did, who published
it and why not? Were _any_ stories other than Star Well, The Tuurb
Revolution and Masque World ever published?

Thanks,
Harry

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 22:08:46 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: Another open question

pnet01!hhaller@nosc.mil writes:
>What ever became of Alexei Panshin's Anthony Villers series? Did he
>ever write The Universal Pantograph or not? If he did, who
>published it and why not? Were _any_ stories other than Star Well,
>The Tuurb Revolution and Masque World ever published?

I have heard, from a fairly reliable source, that there is, in fact,
a fourth Villiers book, but that it is so badly written that nobody
is willing to publish it.  I have to admit that Alexei Panshin, who
at one point was one of my favorite writers, seems to have written
nothing worth reading since he married Cory.  Can this be a
coincidence?  Perhaps.

At any rate, a hearty second of your praise of the three existing
Villers books.  Great, funny, stuff.  Well worth including in the
"Funny SF" discussion, and worth rereading most any time.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 87 14:54:52 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Review: NAPOLEON DISENTIMED

               NAPOLEON DISENTIMED by Hayford Peirce
                   Tor, 1987, ISBN 0-812-54898-1
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     This novel by Hayford Peirce (yes, that really is how it's
spelled) is the second in the "Ben Bova Discoveries" series (the
first is Rebecca Ore's BECOMING ALIEN).  From the introductory
blurb, I get the impression that Bova is attempting to imitate the
"Ace Science Fiction Specials" series that Terry Carr edited so
successfully before his death.  But judging from this
novel--admittedly a very small sample, statistically speaking--Bova
has a ways to go.  While it's true that some of Carr's selections
were somewhat traditional science fiction (Kim Stanley Robinson's
THE WILD SHORE, for example), others like Shepard's GREEN EYES and
Carter Scholz's PALIMPSESTS were more unusual stylistic experiments.
NAPOLEON DISENTIMED is straightforward time travel/alternate worlds
science fiction (only in science fiction could such a comment be
more with a straight face!).

     The style seems inspired more by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's
"Saint-Germain" series than anything else--long, flowery
descriptions of clothing, furniture, and so on.  The idea is that
there is this device, GODHEAD (Gathering, Organizing, and Dispersing
Holistically Extratemporal Autonomous Device), which belonged to a
scientific swami but somehow came into the possession of the
MacNair.  This device is a alternate worlds device (time travel is
also involved) and pretty soon people are skipping around from world
to world, meeting other versions of themselves, and getting involved
with a group trying to use time travel to overthrow Napoleon before
he takes (took?) over all of Europe.  None of it struck me as
original, and the style seemed to bog down the action.  Actually the
whole thing reminded me of nothing so much as a Jacobean drama of
the sort the film THE DRAUGHTSMAN'S CONTRACT was imitating.

     It is not fair to judge the series on the basis of a single
book.  It is certainly true that the "Ace Science Fiction Specials"
had their share of duds.  One must regret, for example, that the
last book in that series, at least under Carr, was Loren MacGregor's
THE NET, a thoroughly average book.  So I will reserve judgement on
this series until I sample one or two other novels.  But, for me at
least, it has gotten off to an inauspicious start.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #513
Date: 30 Nov 87 0931-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #513
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Nov 87 0931-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #513
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 513

Today's Topics:

               Films - The Hidden Fortress (2 msgs) &
                       The Hidden (2 msgs) & 
                       The Stand (2 msgs) &
                       Laserblast (3 msgs) &
                       The Ugly Little Boy &
                       Xanth Novels as Movies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 17:12:55 GMT
From: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!cxsea!zuker@RUTGERS.EDU (Hunter Zuker)
Subject: Re: FIlms that Star Wars "borowwed" from.

From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>   I was always under the impression that the main inspiration for
>the ~plot~ of Star Wars was a Japanese film from the 50's called
>"The Hidden Fortress" (or something similar).  The plot concerns
>the journey of a princess through hostile territory, guarded by two
>Samuri, one of which is tall and cowardly, and another who is
>short, plump, and has a "what-the-hell" kind of attitude.  I'm
>pretty sure there was also a prince who comes to the princess'
>rescue, and an old Samuri who gives the prince advice.
>
>   Has anyone else heard of this film?  I am told the parallels are
>quite striking...

/* Mild Spoiler */

Yes, I saw Hidden Fortress a number of years ago.  I was told before
hand that Star Wars had been based on this movie.  If I hadn't been
told that I would never have guessed.  The main parallel is the two
peasant characters that R2D2 and 3CPO are based on.  They are rather
a comical pair who are caught in the wrong territory during fight
between two warlords.  On their attempt to return home they run into
a hidden fortress.  Here they find gold, a princess and Toshiro
Mifune (who is a samurai general, I believe).  The general then
enlists the help of the two peasants to get the gold and the
princess back to their own land.

The movie follows the two peasants through out the movie (as I
understand it, George Lucas wanted to follow the 'droids throughout
Star Wars).  A lot of the fun with this movie is the contrast
between the charismatic general, the distraught princess and the two
peasants (who can't decide whether or not they want to be involved
with general and the princess).

If the movie comes your way, it's worth seeing.  As far it's
parallels with Star Wars, it's not terribly obvious.

Hunter Zuker
...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!zuker

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 87 04:46:45 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: FIlms that Star Wars "borowwed" from.

I have seen HIDDEN FORTRESS and it has a few superficial
similarities to STAR WARS, but they cannot be much but light
inspiration.  The film is about smuggling a princess of sorts and
some gold though enemy territory.  Most of the people who are
pointing out that SW borrowed from HF do not say that they have
actually seen HF.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 16:24:11 GMT
From: axelrod@video.dec.com (Glenn PKO3-1/K90 223-7957)
Subject: The Hidden

My friend Mona Wheeler, a writing student of Hal Clement's, spoke to
him about The Hidden at the Star Trek BASH 87. Hal has not seen the
The Hidden, and was not consulted. Harlan Ellison woke Hal at
midnight on Friday November 6 to say that he had just seen the ad
and it sounded like Hal's book The Needle (the rights for which were
bought by Disney over the summer). Harlan did suggest a lawyer's
name.  However, Hal says he'll wait till he sees it, but stories
about "possession" are older than science fiction.

Glenn Axelrod
Maynard, MA

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 18:37:28 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: The Hidden

This article contains minor spoilers of Needle and/or The Hidden

> axelrod@video.dec.com (Glenn PKO3-1/K90 223-7957)
> However, Hal says he'll wait till he sees it, but stories about
> "possession" are older than science fiction.

True, true, most of the ideas in The Hidden have been used many
times and in many places.  But the similarities and numerous and
striking, and are by no means limited just to the central notion of
posession:

   1) good-guy alien vs bad-guy alien.
   2) both repulsive-to-humans body-inhabiting aliens of a few Kg
      mass
   3) they are continuing a conflict on earth that started
      elsewhere
   4) it is stated in the book and implied in the movie that they
      both crash landed on earth
   5) bad guy unconcerned with hosts, and notorious for host abuse
      (in the book the bad guys crime was host abuse, and something
      similar is implied in the movie)
   6) the good guy does not change hosts while the bad guy does
      (or is suspected of so doing)
   7) the process of changing hosts is crucial to stopping the bad
      guy
   8) fire is used to force the bad guy to change hosts
   9) the good guy's host is relatively young.
  10) an alien-inhabited human becomes less vulnerable to disease
      and trauma

     and so on.

Now on the other hand, there are differences

   1) the book is a search for the bad guy, who is hiding, while
      the book is an action adventure chase, and the bad guy is
      definitely not hiding
   2) in the book the aliens are amorphous and in the movie they are
      slug-like (though calling this a difference is generous perhaps)
   3) in the book the focus is on the good-guy alien and his host
      while in the movie the focus is on other human collaborators of
      the good-guy-plus-host
   4) in the book a host may survive posession, in the movie it does
      not
   5) in the book no working artifacts survive landing, in the movie
      the good guy retains an advanced weapon
   6) the book tells its story by focusing on the mundane details of
      the search, while the movie was largely composed of chase scenes
   7) there is essentially no dialogue or specific events in common,
      and the movie introduces several gratuitous "alien powers" that
      the book does not

      and so on.

But... I just can't imagine that the the points of similarity are
coincidence.  They may be unintentional, but so many detailed
background points in common is just too much for me to swallow.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 17 Nov 87 21:38:00 GMT
From: harvard!bbn!ima!inmet!justin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Stand

From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no>
>Some time ago I heard rumors about Stephen King's The Stand being
>filmed.

God Forbid. The very concept of trying to film this book is
horrifying.  It's *800* pages long, and almost all of that is
characterization. To film it, they would have to cut everything but
the bare bones of the plot, making the thing completely worthless. I
mean, if Kubrick couldn't make a decent adaptation of "The Shining",
how could *anyone* pull this off?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Nov 87 17:42:47 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: The Stand

>> From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no>
>> Some time ago I heard rumors about Stephen King's The Stand being
>> filmed.
> God Forbid. The very concept of trying to film this book is
> horrifying.  It's *800* pages long, and almost all of that is
> characterization. To film it, they would have to cut everything
> but the bare bones of the plot, making the thing completely
> worthless. I mean, if Kubrick couldn't make a decent adaptation of
> "The Shining", how could *anyone* pull this off?

It may or may not relieve you to know that King himself wrote a
screenplay for THE STAND. The rights are owned by George Romero
(NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD, CREEPSHOW, et alia). The major stumbling
block is financing, as this would obvious be a big budget picture.
Even King, rich as he is, couldn't finance this sucker himself. As I
understand it, CREEPSHOW was done originally to raise money to film
THE STAND.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 21:53:38 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Truth about "Laserblast"

malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>>From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>>>Does anyone else remember the movie Laserblast that came out
>>>several years ago?
>>Yeah.  Interesting film.  Good aliens (gumby animation, but fun).
>>The film "starred" Roddy McDowell.  Apparently they didn't have
>>much money to pay him--he was only in the film for 15 minutes.  I
>>saw it at a con, I don't know if it's out on videotape or not.
>
>From what I have heard, this picture was made because John Dykstra,
>the original special effects Guru with ILM, was signed on with
>somebody for more than one film.
>
>Laserblast" came out right after Star Wars became a hit, and it was
>publicized that the FX were by Dykstra.  I suspect that the whole
>point of the film was to try to make some extra dough for somebody,
>by making a cheap film to which they could attach Dykstra's good
>(and Star Wars-connected) name.

Interesting.  A frind of mine worked on "Laserblast", and in fact
portrayed the alien in the opening shots. (Steve Neill, who does
makeup and mechanical FX, but is really a brilliant cinematographer
waiting to be discovered. He wrote and produced "The Day Time
Ended", and has worked on projects like Star Trek I, Ghostbusters,
The Thing, Forbidden Planet, and so on.)

The movie, which is really awful, was done like these cheap SF
movies usually are.  That is, they spent the budget on location
shots and coke and then went back to the principals and told them
that they needed another $250,000 for special effects or the movie
would not sell.  Then they hired Paul Cook to do the turtle-creature
animation, which was somewhat appealing, if not Harryhausen-quality.
In any event, Dykstra never came near this one.

The only name actor in it is Keenan Wynn, not Roddy McDowell.  I
can't figure out how he wound up in it.  It is a very bad movie.

See "The Day Time Ended" if you get a chance.  It is also very bad,
but it is a platform for all the SFX techniques that Steve knew how
to do.  More (and better) stop-motion animation from Paul Cook;
Close-Encounters-like spacecraft, The Vegetable Probe From Another
Reality, green gas, and the immortal line, "It's a space-time warp!"
explaining why everything is going wrong.  There is a hilarious shot
of a bunch of junked spaceships surrounding the house (which is a
Bermuda Triangle in reverse) and in the distance there is a Ryder
rental truck, also presumably lost in space.  The last scene is a
glass shot done my Jim Danforth, the only big name involved in this
one, which shows the "City of the Future" looking like a Frank Lloyd
Wright oil refinery.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 10:20:49 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Laserblast

From:   malc@tahoe.unr.edu      (Malcolm L. Carlock)
> From what I have heard, this picture was made because John
> Dykstra, the original special effects Guru with ILM, was signed on
> with somebody for more than one film. "Laserblast" came out right
> after Star Wars became a hit, and it was publicized that the FX
> were by Dykstra. I suspect that the whole point of the film was to
> try to make some extra dough for somebody, by making a cheap film
> to which they could attach Dykstra's good (and Star
> Wars-connected) name.

This isn't very bloody likely, considering that John Dykstra's name
has not been associated at all with LASERBLAST (i.e. *none* of my
reference books mention his name in connection with this film). The
stop-motion effects of the aliens in LASERBLAST were by a (in my
opinion) very underrated, underappreciated, and underused special
effects man named David Allen.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 23:56:22 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Laserblast

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu      (Malcolm L. Carlock)
>> From what I have heard, this picture was made because John
>> Dykstra, the original special effects Guru with ILM, was signed
>> on with somebody for more than one film. "Laserblast" came out
>> right after Star Wars became a hit, and it was publicized that
>> the FX were by Dykstra. I suspect that the whole point of the
>> film was to try to make some extra dough for somebody, by making
>> a cheap film to which they could attach Dykstra's good (and Star
>> Wars-connected) name.

Boy, am I getting flamed for the above!

>This isn't very bloody likely, considering that John Dykstra's name
>has not been associated at all with LASERBLAST (i.e. *none* of my
>reference books mention his name in connection with this film). The
>stop-motion effects of the aliens in LASERBLAST were by a (in my
>opinion) very underrated, underappreciated, and underused special
>effects man named David Allen.

OK, my apologies if I'm going senile, but I seem to remember quite
distinctly having picked up a cheap Hollywood-movie magazine in the
grocery store right after Laserblast came out, and having seen in
the (cover) story about Laserblast a claim that Dykstra had done the
F/X.  It seemed for a while after Star Wars appeared that there were
a number of sleazy pre-teen type Hollywood SF magazines (mostly
devoted to Star Wars) that hit the stands and died out fairly
quickly.  These were really cheap, with newsprint covers that
usually had second-rate photos of scenes from Star Wars, Laserblast,
etc.  Anyway, it was in one of these publications that I (thought I)
saw the information I gave above.

This is not to say that cheap Hollywood-movie magazines (or old
memories of having read one) are to be considered more authoritative
than reference books on the subject.

This WAS some years ago, so my memory may be skewed, but it seems to
me that I was struck at that time by the oddness of Dykstra's name
being associated with the film (that is, if I read the article
correctly, and if the article itself was not mistaken), and I have
never forgotten this seeming incongruity.

I was pretty sure about this one, but I guess I'll have to be more
careful next time.

Malcolm Carlock
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 07:39:53 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: 'The Ugly Little Boy' (was Re: A story request)

From:   lll-lcc!futor
> "The Ugly Little Boy" -- I've wanted to see this one turned into a
> movie (for TV?) or some such since my first reading.

There's an anthology film titled THREE TALES DARK AND DANGEROUS,
made by the Learning Corporation of America in 1976, and guess what
one of the three tales is?  And a good adaptation it was.  Kate Reid
(who you may or may not remember as the epileptic doctor in THE
ANDROMEDA STRAIN) played the nurse who "adopts" the ULB.

I taped the film about six years ago off of a pay-tv channel. I
assume that it pops up every once in a while, but I haven't seen it
since I taped it.

Before anyone asks, the other two adaptations are D.H. Lawrence's
"The Rocking-Horse Winner" and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "Silver
Blaze". The latter, aside from being a good adaptation, is of
interest as it stars Christopher Plummer as Holmes three years prior
to his doing the role in MURDER BY DECREE. I've always wondered if
maybe he got the role in that film because of his performance in
this one.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 18:03:41 GMT
From: strac01@rocky.oswego.edu (Doug Eckersley)
Subject: Movies in Mundania

I have heard rumors that the Com-Pewter has been called back by
Clio, and that her texts on Xanth were being smuggled to Mundania
for appearance on silver screens everywhere.  I don't know where I
read it, but is there any truth to the rumors that they were
adapting some Xanth novels to movies?  I heard that a studio in
Germany was doing it.  Am I crazy, or is it happening?  Hmmm....

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #514
Date: 30 Nov 87 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #514
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Nov 87 0952-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #514
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 514

Today's Topics:

              Television - Between Time and Timbuktu &
                           Gerry Anderson Shows (4 msgs) &
                           Beauty and the Beast &
                           Space: 1999 & British TV &
                           Blake's 7 (2 msgs) &
                           Obscure TV Shows (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 23:17:59 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!apple!winter@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Patty Winter)
Subject: Speaking of PBS Sci-Fi Films...

Does anyone remember the show PBS did called "Prometheus V, or
Between Time and Timbuktu"? It was a compilation of scenes from Kurt
Vonnegut books held together by a plot involving space/time travel.
The traveller went into the "chronosynclastic infundibulum" and came
out--voila!--into various Vonnegut scenes (Wanda June, Cat's Cradle,
etc.).

Adding immense hilarity to the show were Bob and Ray as a
Walter-Cronkite lookalike and an ex-astronaut expert commentator.
Tang jokes ran rampant.

I used to have the book of the show (script plus lots of still
shots), but it got lost several years ago. :-( Not sure whether it's
still available, or whether any PBS stations ever plan to reshow the
movie.

Patty Winter
(408) 973-2814
M/S 2C, Apple Computer, Inc.
20525 Mariani Ave.
Cupertino, CA 95014
{decwrl,nsc,sun,dual}!apple!winter

------------------------------

Date: 9 Nov 87 16:55:23 GMT
From: uunet!garfield!sean1@RUTGERS.EDU (Sean Huxter)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds

From: CADS079%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
>>Does anybody else remember the British TV series "Thunderbirds"
>>done by Gerry Anderson back in the 70's? The characters were made
>>in the style of "Terrahawks" and featured a family-run secret
>>organization called International Rescue. The base was on an
>>island and the five sons each piloted one of the 5 Thunderbird
>>craft. If I recall #1 was a atmosphere rocket, #2 looked like a
>>fat Boeing, #3 was a space rocket, #4 was a small submarine, and
>>#5 was a space station.  Various episodes had the team involving
>>in plane crashes, volcanos, meteor storms, and large fires. I
>>quite liked it.
>
>    Yes, I remember "Thunderbirds", but DON'T EVEN compare it to
>"Terrahawks".  For one thing, Thunderbirds was made in the 60's
>(not the 70's), and was done using "Supermarionation", i.e., the
>cast consisted of marionetts with dubbed-in voices.  International
>Rescue was the alter ego of the Tracy family, which consisted of a
>father and five sons who piloted the ships, and "Brains" who was
>the 60's version of a hacker (i.e., requisite coke-bottle glasses,
>etc.).  The effects were crude by today's standards, but the show
>had enough neat ideas to keep it going.  I hear that it is still
>very popular in England.
[stuff deleted]
>    It seems that Gerry Anderson did his best work in the 60's.  I
>can remember a very interesting discussion on "UFO" on this digest
>around a year or so ago.  I'm sure there are people out there who
>know more about Thunderbirds than myself.  I'd be interested in
>knowing of it is still broadcast anywhere, or if it can be found on
>tape.

Sure I remember it. I started a discussion here about it last year.
I got some good responses, and I learned that I wasn't alone out
there. I remember watching the show, (although I never could
remember any of the plots, except for little sketches of many
different ones.) when I was around 7 or 8 or so. I loved the show,
and especially the effects, models, etc...

True, TERRAHAWKS is by Gerry Anderson, but please, as the guy above
notes, do not compare the two. Gerry Anderson tried and tried with
new ideas and series' and kept failing. His marriage to Silvia broke
up, (I was sort of shocked to find out... she did the voice of Lady
Penelope, and was prominent in storywriting and conceptualization
for Thunderbirds).

He laid low a while and contemplated a Thunderbirds comeback.
Instead he came up with Terrahawks, in my opinion, a cheap take-off
of his own original Thunderbirds.

The techniques were totally different, and the modelmaking was off.
He used "muppet"like puppets in Terrahawks, which he found
confining, and they certainly couldn't match the Supermarionettes.

You can read all about it in issue #124 of Starlog, there is a
little blurb about Terrahawks and its failure. Also, there is hope
for the future, according to the article.

There is nothing I would like better than a return to Thunderbirds,
using the same characters, only with more of today's technology.
(PLEASE!! NO THUNDERBIRDS 2086!!!)

There are two full length feature movies, one called "THUNDERBIRD 6"
and one called "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!" each made in the 60's after
the collapse of the series. There were 32 episodes all in all, I
think, and at least 3 video tape episode compilations are available.
(I have one THUNDERBIRD 6 and three of the episode compilations on
tape.)

The compilations are two episodes which have something in common on
each tape.  The first contains the first show about a jetliner going
down, and the second episode also pertains to that jetliner.

The second has to do with two space stories, and the third about
disasters.

Alas, I wish I had all 32 hours on tape, but no stations I know of
carry the show.

I have an old antique Thunderbird 2 (my favorite of the
Thunderbirds) that a friend gave me. It is over 25 years old about
now. I wish I had some of the models, but they too are rare
nowadays.

Sean Huxter
P.O. Box 366
Springdale
NF, Canada A0J 1T0
UUCP: {utai,cbosgd,ihnp4,akgua,allegra}!garfield!sean1

------------------------------

Date: 12 NOV 87 16:36-
From: CDEACON%MUN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Thunderbirds et al

Nice to read about Thunderbirds again. Does anybody remember similay
Gerry Anderson "puppet shows", Captain Scarlet, Joe 90 and Stingray?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 87 09:59:30 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!ers!nmm@RUTGERS.EDU (Neil McCulloch)
Subject: Re: Thunderbirds et al

CDEACON@MUN.BITNET writes:
> Nice to read about Thunderbirds again. Does anybody remember
> similay Gerry Anderson "puppet shows", Captain Scarlet, Joe 90 and
> Stingray?

OK, who did Supercar? I remember the monkey was called Mitch, but
what were the names of the professor and the boy?

neil

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 87 13:32:39 BST (Postman Pat ver 3.1)
From: Zigetty <PEU1347@CYBER1.CENTRAL.BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #495

Re Thunderbirds.... To say it is still popular in Britain is a real
understatement. Every year there are dozens of conventions with the
theme of the Gerry Anderson programmes these were (in roughly
chronological order): Supercar, Stingray, Thunderbirds, Captain
Scarlet and the Mysterons, Joe 90, U.F.O., Space 1999 (Models and
real actors), Terrahawks (puppets)

Captain Scarlet is amazingly popular (still) in Japan. U.F.O. is
very popular in Britain at the moment after a late-night re-run.
Most of the merchandise associated with these series (apart from
Terrahawks) is much sought after particularly that associated with
Fireball XL5 which should be between supercar and Stingray. It is
also worth noting that several books were published as TV-tie ins as
were several comics the most valuable being TV21 published in
1966....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 87  16:19:45 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Beauty and the Beast

Beauty and the Beast has got to be one of the best prime time TV
series to come out in years. The makeup job done was beautiful, and
the sets are flawless. The series has romance(but not overt sex),
intrigue, adventure, and is emotionally rivoting. FOUR STARS!

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
Umass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
nutto%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
nutto%umass.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 87 19:11:40 PST
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Battlestar Galactica and other ragged-upon series....

I think that one of the reasons that people rag so heavily on
Battlestar Galactica and others (Space: 1999 being another example)
is that the show had problems with formularity.  The first few
episodes of Galactica were indeed quite good.  Galactica: 1980 was
abysmally bad.  I myself am rather fond of Space:1999; PARTICULARLY
the second season.  I freely grant that the two leads (can't even
remember the actors' names) couldn't act their way out of a paper
bag; but the OTHER characters were a joy, ESPECIALLY Maya!!

George Madison
BITNET: 7gmadiso@pomona
UUCP:   psuvax1!pomona.bitnet!7gmadiso
ARPA:   7gmadiso%pomona@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 23:12:43 GMT
From: barth@ihlpl.att.com (BARTH RICHARDS)
Subject: Re: Battlestar Galactica and other ragged-upon series....

7GMADISO@pomona.BITNET writes:
>I think that one of the reasons that people rag so heavily on
>Battlestar Galactica and others (Space: 1999 being another example)
>is that the show had problems with formularity.

Yes, repeated use of the same formulas can quickly drag an sf series
down.  But this can be overcome.

Take, for instance, two British sf shows:

BLAKE'S 7 does have a tendency to start getting bogged down a bit
(in my opinion) in the forth (and last) season, but not terminally.
Otherwise, the series kept my interest quite well, largely because
of the strength and belivability of the characters.

DOCTOR WHO is another good example.  It is currently in it's
twenty-fourth season....I mean, how many sf plots are there!?!
Obviously, the producers of DW have had to rely on a finite number
of formulas, but somehow.  They somehow manage to continually pull
it off, partially because they often find new approaches to old
formulas, but largely because of the interest generated in the
characters.

Other than creating characters to whom the audience can relate, I'd
have to say that taking a few risks and not taking the show too
seriously all the time are the keys to maintaning the continuing
entertainment value of an sf series.  Unfortunately, most of the
American made sf series I have seen fail on at least two of these
counts.

Barth Richards
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
!ihnp4!ihlpl!barth

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 18:02:46 GMT
From: rjp1@ihlpa.att.com
Subject: Blake's 7

This probably has been hashed out before, but:

Can anyone tell me (or list) all of the Blake's 7 episodes?

I've only recently tuned in to the show (right near to where Star
One gets blasted) and now channel 11 (in Chicago) has postponed
showing any more episodes until Dec 14th!

Books?  Videos?  Etc?  Any info would be welcome.  Email or post.

Bob Pietkivitch
UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!rjp1

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 17:50:24 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Blake's, all 7 of them!

There's a British book called "Blakes's 7 Programme Guide" or
something like that.  I haven't seen it, but I'm told it contains
not just a summary of episodes but an explanation of what happens
after the "last" episode.  (I should look at it to see if my own
guess is correct.)  Any good bookstore could probably special order
it for you.  Or you might call your public TV station, they might
have a few copies left over from their last pledge breaks.  (One
reason PTV shows so much SF is that it's a good way to raise money.)

>I've only recently tuned in to the show (right near to where Star
>One gets blasted) and now channel 11 (in Chicago) has postponed
>showing any more episodes until Dec 14th!

Whoops.  After the Star One episode, the actor who played Blake got
a job with the National Shakespeare Company, so Blake essentially
disappears until the "last" episode.  So don't be confused by the
absence of the title character.  Still, the second half of the
series is dominated by Blake's semi-evil cohort Avon.  Everyone
loves the actor who played him, Paul Darrow -- he can outsneer
anybody in the Galaxy!

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 87 19:17:54 PST
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Subject: Obscure SF TV shows

The recent discussion of various SF TV series has gotten me thinking
about some of the more obscure shows I still think of fondly.  A
number of them were intended for the Saturday Morning crowd, but
many of those show a lot more thought and effort than the dreck that
dominates Saturday now (primarily 30-min. commercials).

Anyone remember.......

Quark
Ark II
Space Academy
The Fantastic Journey
The Young Sentinels (Animated)
Jason of Star Command
Electra-Woman and Dyna-Girl (Campier than Batman!!!)
The Lost Saucer

George Madison
BITNET: 7gmadiso@pomona
UUCP:   psuvax1!pomona.bitnet!7gmadiso
ARPA:   7gmadiso%pomona@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 01:57:41 GMT
From: schwartz@gondor.psu.edu (Scott E. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

7GMADISO@pomona.BITNET writes:
>The recent discussion of various SF TV series has gotten me
>thinking about some of the more obscure shows I still think of
>fondly.  A number of them were intended for the Saturday Morning
>crowd, but many of those show a lot more thought and effort than
>the dreck that dominates Saturday now (primarily 30-min.
>commercials).

>Anyone remember.......
>
> Quark

YES!!! This was great!  As I recall the second season was much
better than the first.  Ficus the Vegeton was my favorite character.

> Ark II

Sounds familiar, but can't place it.

>Space Academy
>The Fantastic Journey

Yes.  Can't remember much about it, though. Seemed pretty good at
the time.

>The Young Sentinels (Animated)
>Jason of Star Command

Yuck.

>Electra-Woman and Dyna-Girl

Gaaa!  A memory from N years back leaps into my conscious mind for
the first time since!  I watched this most terrible of shows
religously for a while.  Adolescence is a terrible thing.  (The
theme song is now running through my mind... HELP ME...
gaaaaaa......)

>The Lost Saucer

Hah!  See above, and lose 10 hit points.

Now it's my turn....  My all time favorite cartoon-type show was
"Star Blazers".  Two seasons worth were shown in Philadelphia my
junior year in high school (1981). Later I discovered that at least
4 more were made in Japan (under the title "Space Cruiser Yamato" or
some variant thereof) I actually saw one of these at Philcon several
years ago in the original Japanese (with a simultaneous translator
standing at the front of the room saying things like "and now they
are singing about all the good times they had on the Argo (as it was
called in starblasers)").  What a blast.

Scott Schwartz
schwartz@gondor.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 05:18:41 GMT
From: strac01@rocky.oswego.edu (Doug Eckersley)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

Strangly enough, I remember nearly all of those.  I vividly remember
the theme from Electra-Woman et al, very rhythmic.  I also remember
some other shows, though I can't remember the titles too well:

? - A comedy with Bob Denver (I think).  He and a partner are loading
    up food in a lunar lander, and Denver presses "Launch" instead
    of "Lunch".  They become stranded on some planet or asteroid
    somewhere.

The Star Lost - Did they ever get the Ark back on course?  I vaguely
    remember weird scenes from this one.

Land of the Lost - What a classic!  It's still shown in some places
    in syndication.  I've always wondered just where, specifically,
    they were.  I think there was a cast change.  I remember the
    episode where they went home.  Pylons, Sleestak, ah... what
    memories!

UFO - I don't remember much about this one.  Do you?
Time Tunnel - The 60's classic I never saw.  I was young then, you
    know.
Dr. Shrinker - Reminiscent of Electra-Woman.

That's all I remember now.  But, oh the memories (what there are of
them).  Thanks for the time warp.

UUCP:strac01@rocy.oswego.edu
BITNET:eckers09@snypotba

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 30-Nov  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #515
Date: 30 Nov 87 1040-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #515
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Nov 87 1040-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #515
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 30 Nov 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 515

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Rice (6 msgs) &
                              Humorous SF (11 msgs) &
                              Vampires (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 01:52:11 GMT
From: deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff)
Subject: Ann Rice

Does anyone know when Anne Rice's third "Vampire" novel is coming
out?

I've read "Interview with the Vampire" and "The Vampire Lestat".  I
thought "Interview" was great, but more on the artistic side.  I
enjoyed "Lestat", but it definitely was not as serious as
"Interview". But good anyway.

Anyone else read these?

David Baraff
Cornell University

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 16:21:00 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Re: Ann Rice

deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff) writes:
> Does anyone know when Anne Rice's third "Vampire" novel
> is coming out?

Regretfully, no.

> I've read "Interview with the Vampire" and "The Vampire Lestat".
> I thought "Interview" was great, but more on the artistic side.  I
> enjoyed "Lestat", but it definitely was not as serious as
> "Interview". But good anyway.
>
> Anyone else read these?

   Yes!  I have read _Interview with the Vampire_ and thought it was
excellent.  I enjoyed the view of a vampire as a regular person
caught up in a bizarre situation, as opposed to a "Prince of
Darkness".  I haven't yet read _The Vampire Lestat_, though it is
sitting on my shelf at home (too many books, not enough time).  I'm
glad to hear it is a good read.  I shall get to it sooner or later.

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 16:26:51 GMT
From: dlk@ulysses.homer.nj.att.com (David L. Kosenko[jar])
Subject: Re: Vampires Today

   In _The Vampire Lestat_ by Anne Rice, we see a vampire who is a
rock star.  Would work well.  Night concerts only, recordings done
at night, groupies galore....

D.L. Kosenko
seismo!ulysses!dlk

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 18:24:46 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyd!edg@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Elizabeth D.
From: Gottlieb)
Subject: Re:  Anne Rice's third novel

It is out, and it's boring.  I forget the title (it's that
un-memorable), but it develops characters in the New Orleans setting
of the vampire books.  I very much enjoyed the two vampire books,
but this one starts slow and stays slow.

Libby Gottlieb

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 11:58:45 GMT
From: cs1541bz@geinah.unm.edu (Brian Bowers)
Subject: Anne Rice's Vampire trilogy

The two, released books of Anne Rice's Vampire Trilogy are
"Interview With the Vampire" and "The Vampire Lestat".

Both books are well written and entertaining.  However, I felt that
"The Vampire Lestat" was a much better book than "Interview With the
Vampire" although this may have to do with my reading the books out
of order (due to being able to buy "Lestat" in hardback for 99 cents
and not being able to buy "Interview" at all at the time).  If you
have not read these books I highly recommend them.

I would like to issue a plea for assistance though: If you know when
the third book in the series is expected to be released, please let
me know.  I very much want to see how the whole sordid mess gets
resolved.

Brian Bowers
cs1541bz@geinah.unm.edu
rutgers!ames!hc!hi!geinah!cs1541bz

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 87 17:45:40 GMT
From: schur@venera.isi.edu (Sean Schur)
Subject: Re: Anne Rice's third novel

edg@pbhyd.UUCP (Elizabeth D. Gottlieb) writes:
>It is out, and it's boring.  I forget the title (it's that
>un-memorable), but it develops characters in the New Orleans
>setting of the vampire books.  I very much enjoyed the two vampire
>books, but this one starts slow and stays slow.

I think you are thinking of one of her other books. The third book
is GOING TO BE titled "Queen Of The Damned". Anne Rice has numerous
other books, some of which are similar, some not so good. But her
third story in the Vampire Trilogy is NOT out yet.

ss

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 14:24:59 GMT
From: brantley@vax1.acs.udel.edu (RILEY)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>So let me know what novels or what author gets *you* rolling on the
>floor.  I am eagerly awaiting your suggestions, thanx in advance

Something that I found pretty amusing was _Mallworld_, by Somtow
Sucharitkul.  It's published by TOR books and is fairly recent, so
getting a copy shouldn't be too hard.

I won't try to explain the plot, but all of the action takes place
in and around a planet-sized shopping mall where you can buy
anything and everything.

Happy reading,

brantley
arpa:brantley@vax1.acs.udel.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 87 08:56:40 PST
From: PUGH@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Humorous SF

For humorous SF, I recommend

The Flying Sorceror, By Larry Niven & David Gerrold
   Try to figure out who the alien wizard Purple is.  I dare you!

Bill the Galactic Hero, by Harry Harrison
   The silliest war ever, with serious comments about today's
   military.

The Stainless Steel Rat series, by Harry Harrison
   A bunch of these books and they are all fun if somewhat
   predictable.

Warlock's World, by Chistopher Anvil
The King's Legions (short story in Asimov's Tin Stars - SF #5
   anthology)
also short stories and other books
   A couple of books and shorts about the Space Patrol wherein our
   heroes are guided on the straight and narrow by their space
   patrol ship and it's gungho computer.

I could go on for days...

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 15:55:53 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!lamc!dhawk@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (David
From: Hawkins)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

Knight Life by Peter David
Any of the Stainless Steel Rat books by Harry Harrison
Any of the Callahan's books from Spider Robinson
More for comics fans: Superfolks by Robert Meyer

But what do I know about humor?  I play Leonard Cohen songs at
parties.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 87 16:16:24 CST
From: Rich Zellich <rzellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: breebaar%hlerul5.bitnet@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: Humorous SF

And don't forget anything by Ron Goulart (although there's too much
of a sameness to the more recent novels...), and anything short by
Ray Lafferty.  Especially recommended is Lafferty's anthology titled
"10,000 Grandmothers" (and I think I may have the number
wrong...1,000 perhaps?...); it has such classics as "The Land of the
Great Horses", the title story, and "Narrow Valley".

I second the recommendation for John M. Ford's Star Trek novel "How
Much for Just the Planet?" - the book hasn't a serious bone in it's
whole body.

The recent "Glory Lane" wasn't bad either (Alan Dean Foster, I
think); you want the answer to life, the universe, and everything?
this book says the answer isn't "42", but "shopping".  The much
older and similarly-titled "Glory Road" by Heinlein was a lot of
fun, too - not like anything else by RAH that I've ever read.

Cheers,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 87 07:38:23 PST
From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: What makes you go haha

Here are three favourites of mine:
(1) The trouble with Tribbles (book) by David Gerrold
    The funny bit is the script but the other bits are intriguing
    any way.
(2) The Flying Sorcerers by David Gerrold & Larry Niven.
    This operates on two levels - (a) too many puns (b) the plot
(3) The Silver Eggheads by Fritz Leiber (I think - my copy fell to
    pieces) This is probably the only book to speculate about robot
    sex.  It also says a lot about writing, editting, publishing,
    etc.

------------------------------

From: m14051%mwvm@mitre.arpa
Subject: Re:  Humorous SF

Well,
   My two favorite humorous authors are:

1)  R.A. Lafferty.  Short stories are the best, try _Nine_Hundred_
    Grandmothers_.  "Primary Education of the Camiroi" is a classic.
2)  George Alec Effinger.  Some books/stories are more humorous than
    others.  Short story "At The Bran Foundry" always leaves me
    rolling in the aisles.  Don't know about collections, but he is
    in many "Best of" collections from the seventies and early
    eighties.  Also, _The_Nick_Of_Time and _The_Bird_Of_Time had me
    laughing a fair amount.

John DeCarlo
M14051%mwvm@mitre.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 13:33:12 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

>Knight Life by Peter David

If you like this one, try any of Peter's later (after #1) Photon
Novels.  Ignore the plot (well almost ignore it) and enjoy the
inside jokes.  SF fans, comic writers, Monty Python sketches,
etc...dot the whole thing.  They're written under the name David
Peters.

But I'm biased...Peter's a friend (and I'm a character in the books).

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

From: ames!amdahl!drivax!alexande@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Mark Alexander)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha
Date: 24 Nov 87 19:16:31 GMT

John Sladek's collection _The Steam-Driven Boy_ has some great
parodies of famous science fiction writers, including Asimov,
Ballard, Clarke, Dick, and Heinlein.  Even the anagrams for some of
the authors' names are wonderful (e.g. "Hitler I. E. Bonner").  This
book also has some funny SF stories that aren't parodies.

Mark Alexander
...{hplabs,seismo,sun,ihnp4}!amdahl!drivax!alexande

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 87 17:25:41 est
From: anand@cm1.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand)
Subject: Humorous SF

   Here are a few of my favourite SF humorists:

Bob Shaw: "Who goes there" has got to be the funniest sf of all
time. Its about a blundering private's career in the galactic legion
(equiv to foreign legion). Several of his short stories are funny
too.

Richard Cowper: Not may people n the U.S. seem to have heard of this
wonderful British SF author. His book "Clone" is wonderfully funny.
Also read "Profundis" by the same guy. (He comes up with "Fusion
Atomic Reactor Turbine" - FART)

Robert Sheckley: Author of "Specialist", "The Human Trap" etc. Not
funny always but very good satire.

J. Swift : Gullivers travels book 3 "Voyage to Laputa".  His
description of a research Institute in the island of Laputa is
hilarious. One guy was trying to extract sun beams from cucumbers,
another one "engaged in the endevour of converting human ordure to
edible food - without visible success". That place reminds me of the
lab I work in!

R. Anand
Arpa: anand@amax.npac.syr.edu
Bitnet: ranand@sunrise

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 17:37:47 GMT
From: cbmvax!snark!eric@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric S. Raymond)
Subject: Re: Humorous SF

PUGH@NMFECC.ARPA writes:
> Warlock's World, by Chistopher Anvil

That's _Warlord's_World_, DAW #168 1975. Also see the earlier
_Pandora's_ Planet_ (no reference for this, sorry, I don't own it)
in which a bunch of aliens invade Earth and suffer for it...because
Earthlings are trickier than they are. Both are quite funny.

Also not to be missed:
_The_Schimmelhorn_File:_Memoirs_Of_A_Dirty_Old_Genius_ (Ace SF pb
75415, 1979) and _Schimmelhorn's_Gold_ (Ace SF pb 53239-2, 1986),
both by Reginald Bretnor. The former includes the classic "The
Gnurrs Come from the Voodvork Out", a piece of inspired slapstick
lunacy guaranteed to make you laugh so hard your sides will hurt.

Eric S. Raymond
22 South Warren Avenue
Malvern, PA 19355
(215)-296-5718
UUCP:  {{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax}!snark!eric

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 87 05:27:47 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: Humorous SF

I vote for a speculative essay by Larry Niven, entitled "Man Of
Steel, Woman of Kleenex," dealing with the myriad difficulties of a
sexual liaison between Superman and an Earth woman (Lois Lane, most
likely).  It appears, along with many other essays and shorts, in
ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS , and was the first Niven material I (now a
steadfast Niven-ite) ever encountered.

Chris Chiesa
..{backbones}!iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 18:10:45 GMT
From: interlan!deem@RUTGERS.EDU (Mike Deem)
Subject: Re: Vampires Today

I rember reading in Omni (so long ago I can't rember the title or
author) a story about a vampire that did dream research at an
university.  The story examined his nature in some detail.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 02:42:36 GMT
From: bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Vampires In The Future (& other ravings)

   For a nontraditional treatment of vampire legend (minus the blood
bit, or for that matter all that quasi-religious stuff, *oddly
though* the garlic bit is retained :) see: Colin Wilson's book, _The
Space Vampires_ (ca. 1976).  It's more like [image the scene in _The
Dark Crystal_ where the Skeksis says to the girl Gelfling something
about] "drinking your *essence* (cackle)".  This book details the
relationship between human sexuality and vampirism, I'd say it's a
statement on the psychology of sexual surrender, taken in the
vampiric context, more than anything else.  Good read too.  (Bram
Stoker not required reading :)

   Oh, yes.  I know this novel is the basis for *Lifeforce* (no need
to tell me, and, no, I haven't seen it).

   I'm afraid, that of the more traditional renderings of the
vampire story, I prefer that golden oldie from the '70s, _The Night
Stalker_ featuring our intrepid reporter, Kolchak (Darren McGavin,
with a cameo by Elisha Cook, Jr no less!).  Delightful.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
UUCP:john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 87 14:33:39 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: more on vampire novels...

Anybody out there read a book called "The Delicate Dependency" by
????

This ranks high on my list of very best vampire novels. If there are
any others by this author, I would like to know of them...

sheri

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 87 16:00:59 GMT
From: flee@gondor.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: The Vampire Tapestry (Re: Vampires Today)

deem@interlan.UUCP (Mike Deem) writes:
> I rember reading in Omni (so long ago I can't rember the title or
> author) a story about a vampire that did dream research at an
> university.  The story examined his nature in some detail.

Ah... This was Suzy McKee Charnas's story "The Unicorn Tapestry",
later included in her book The_Vampire_Tapestry.  The vampire in the
story (I forget his name) would drink people's blood while they were
asleep for the "dream research".

The vampire was probably a sociologist or an anthropologist, being
an avid student of man.  Feeding upon mankind, he considered himself
the ultimate predator.  And as a hunter will study the habits of
deer, he immersed himself in the study of man.

Suzy McKee Charnas did a good job of capturing the vampire's
predatorial nature.  A book well worth reading.

Felix Lee
flee@gondor.psu.edu
*!psuvax1!gondor!flee

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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Summary-line:  2-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #516
Date:  2 Dec 87 0822-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
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Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #516
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*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 87 0822-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #516
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 516

Today's Topics:

                      Books - Wolfe (5 msgs) &
                              Favorite Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 17:44:40 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Urth of the New Sun

>>Just finished Gene Wolfe's latest, Urth of the New Sun (Tor
>>Hardcover).  Written very much in the style of the three
>>predecessors. Some, but not everything, explained (at least to my
>>satisfaction). More complete review with minor spoilers later also
>>review of Jack Vance's latest.
>
>Huh ?!? The *series* is called Book of the New Sun. The fourth book
>is called *Citadel of the Autarch*. I have never heard of UotNS. Is
>it the fifth ?

It is the fifth. It starts a new cycle in the New Sun series. Tor
hardcover, also a Gollancz Hardcover in the UK.

And if you want to be technical about it, the fifth book is really
"Castle of the Otter" which is a small non-fiction book that
explains the background and etymology of Urth. Wonderful book, if
you can find it. Fortunately there is a Science Fiction Book Club
edition.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 87 08:17:50 -0800
From: obrien@aerospace.aero.org
Subject: Re: Urth of the New Sun

I haven't seen many mentions of this yet, so here's a mini-review.

I'm biased, I admit it.  I'm one of those insufferable *****'s who
thinks "The Book of the New Sun" is the best thing the field's seen
in the last ten years or more.

In some ways I found the new offering a disappointment.  To a large
extent it merely seems to be a confirmation of the tenuous
conclusions one could draw from "The Book of the New Sun" if one
worked hard enough at it.  It also does not weave as rich a
tapestry, but this may be because it is only a third the length of
the earlier work.  If one considers it a short story following a
novel, it does quite well.

   There is room for the pleasant speculation that is so much a part
of the earlier work.  One possibility: Do we meet Jason in the new
book?

    For those who love Wolfe's use of language, that is here, in
full.  And it does serve to explain one or two incidents in the
earlier books that were, to me, almost completely incomprehensible
(such as the very mysterious run-in with Apu-Punchau in the stone
city).  Although it is not of the same length or complexity as the
earlier book/books, it is certainly a worthy successor.  For me, it
passed the final test: after reading it, I haven't been able to read
anything since.  Everything else seems tepid and shallow in
comparison.

Recommended, but only for those who have read "The Book of the New
Sun".

Mike O'Brien
obrien@aerospace.aero.org
{sdcrdcf,trwrb}aero!obrien

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 06:15:23 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: Urth of the New Sun

  _The Urth of the New Sun_ is here, and it's a knockout.
  This is the long-awaited sequel to _The Book of the New Sun_, Gene
Wolfe's monumental four-volume novel about the life under the dying
sun of the cradle of mankind, Wolfe's masterpiece.
  _Urth_ begins immediately after _The Book_ ends: Severian the
Torturer, Autarch of Urth, Examplar of Man, has boarded the ship
that will take him far from Urth to face judgement to determine
whether he will bring a White Fountain to rejuvenate the Sun. The
ship is enormous, possessing sufficient mass to generate a
gravitational field about 1/8th that of Urth. Severian spends some
time wandering about it, exploring this world, while various
factions attempt to assassinate him. He spends a fair amount of time
falling great heights without suffering serious injury and evading
hostile forces trying to prevent his success.
  After he arrives at the planet of judgement, in the universe of
Yesod, he discovers both how important and unimportant he is in the
eyes of God; eventually, he is returned to Urth, but things have
changed. The latter half of the novel entails his encounters on
Urth, in a variety of identities and locales, until his final
arrival at his true berth.

  I really don't want to go into any detail in a general review;
however, I will mention that the beautiful prose, oblique
story-telling, intricate time-travel, grand philisophical insights,
and general brilliance of _The Book_ are all here, although fewer of
them than in the original, which was, after all, much longer. A
great deal of _Urth_ is concerned with making more plain the
unravelling of mysteries established in the first; since I was
confident in my understanding of most all of that work, they came as
no surprise. However, I will state that _Urth_ was completely unlike
my expectations of it, and disappointed me not in the least.
  From what I understand, there will be no further volumes detailing
the life of Severian; this was intended as the coda to the concerto
of _The Book_, and after its final (uplifted) note, we must deduce
the rest of Severian's life ourselves--and with him, the life of
Man.
   Yes, _Castle_ is a _New Sun_ book (actually, I believe it was
published fourth, between _Sword and Citadel_ and is very worth
getting from the SFBC. Besides interesting insights into _The Book_,
it also has memorable bits about being a convention guest and plans
to put MX missles on wooden sailing ships in the Pacific.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 23:31:44 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Urth of the New Sun

kjm@dg-rtp.UUCP (Not That One!) writes:
>  _Urth_ begins immediately after _The Book_ ends: Severian the
>Torturer, Autarch of Urth, Examplar of Man, has boarded the ship
>that will take him far from Urth to face judgement

Uhhh...I suppose this is *technically* correct, since at the end of
tBotNS Severian says he is writing immediately before boarding the
ship...but what is not mentioned in tBotNS, and is mentioned only in
oblique references in tUotNS, is the decade Severian has spent as
Autarch.  The *action* of tUotNS, thus, begins long after the
*action* of tBotNS ended.

>A great deal of _Urth_ is concerned with making more plain the
>unravelling of mysteries established in the first

This is, for many, the biggest complaint with tUotNS; most of us
liked the vague, implied feel of those "mysteries" -- the answers
were always there, if you could figure them out; but now the puzzle
has been taken away.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 87 04:49:47 MST
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: Two new books by Gene Wolfe

THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN.  Gene Wolfe.  Tor: NYC.  372 pp. hc., c1987.
EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWER.  Gene Wolfe.  Cheap Street: Route 2,
  Box 293, New Castle VA 24127.  80 pp. hc. signed slipcased, c1987.

I finally got to meet Gene Wolfe this summer at Readercon.  It was a
curious experience -- Wolfe looks, talks and acts so completely
unlike what you might expect from his writing that at first glance
you might imagine the real Wolfe to be a Salinger-style hermit and
that this man has stolen his name and reputation.  There's a lot of
Texas in his deep drawl; his face seems very bland and
middle-American, except for his eyes.  Nothing to suggest the florid
Gothic manner of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS or the NEW SUN books...
In person I found him amiable and intimidating at the same time --
he doesn't mind chatting with fans and enjoys telling anecdotes, but
I also got the feeling that there were thoughts passing through his
mind that didn't show on the surface.  It's occurred to me since
then that much of Wolfe's writing is concerned with deceptive
appearances: Dr. Marsch's green eyes, the magical gem borne by the
executioner, the rebel Wat.  Wolfe is so good at these tricks that
I'd almost suspect him of being responsible for the subsequent
Philip K Dick mass illusion complete with fire alarm...  but that's
another story.

So now I have all my NEW SUN hardcovers signed except one.  Just my
luck -- a couple months after I drag a shopping bag full of signed
books back from Boston, a new one comes out.  Yes, it's THE URTH OF
THE NEW SUN, a full-blown sequel to THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.  I was
one of those few readers who thought he was satisfied with the
wrap-up in THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, in which Severian claims to
have told all he knows, and if you didn't understand, you must have
missed something.  Thus in my view a sequel to NEW SUN would be an
inevitable anticlimax, since its subject matter is (literally)
foreordained.  On the other hand (there's always another hand when
you need one), I've always had a warm feeling for the characters in
NEW SUN and as long as sequel disease isn't setting in, I'm quite
willing to say hello to them again.

How does Wolfe avoid sequelitis?  THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN throws you
off balance right at the opening page, because Severian is no longer
on Urth.  At the end of CITADEL, Severian is starting his reign as
Autarch; URTH skips this entire period in his life and tosses you
adrift in space and time, as Severian is on his way to the universe
of Yesod to make his case for Urth before the court.  The voyage
isn't as straightforward as you might think -- the agents of Abaia
have one last desperate chance to stop the New Sun, by killing
Severian on board the ship...  Wolfe never pauses long enough to let
you get your bearings, and by the end of the book it's clear that
calling the book a sequel can be very misleading.  We do get to meet
some familiar characters, albeit very quickly -- another surprise
entrance before Valeria, some more banter with Typhon and Piaton, a
curious encounter with a grown-up Eata, the first visit of
Famulimus, Barbatus and Ossipago; and we do meet some folks we never
saw in the earlier books but heard about, like the Autarch Ymar, and
the Conciliator; but it's the new characters who steal the show.  I
think I'll let Severian introduce them himself, rather than spoil
some of the surprises for you, but it's fair to say that the new
characters are just as memorable as the old, if not more so...  (Of
course everything is equally memorable to Severian!)

When I started reading URTH, I was afraid that Wolfe's explanations
might spoil THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN for me.  After all, I had spent
no small amount of time and effort erecting an edifice of imaginary
playing cards and I had every reason to expect that Wolfe might take
a playful puff at it.  As it turned out, it wasn't so much that
Wolfe knocked my theories down as that he made the data much more
complicated.  The broader hints about the metaphysics of Urth and
its universe and its meta-universe are enticing and still
incomplete.  The religious implications are also puzzling; people
are going to ask about Wolfe as they did about Tolkien: how can
Wolfe, as a Christian, fit his work into an orthodox Christian
framework?  I'm not sure it's supposed to fit (and I'm ill equipped
to speculate, as a non-Christian), but it's a curious problem,
especially when you consider the difficulties of accommodating
technology in Heaven.  In any case I now have the very strong
feeling that I need to re-read the entire work from back to front,
as Famulimus would see it, in order to capture all the (new)
implications...

   '... In ancient days, in a land far off, there stood two empires,
   divided by mountains.  One dressed its soldiers in yellow, the
   other in green.  For a hundred generations they struggled.  I see
   that the man with you knows the tale.'

   'And after a hundred generations,' I said, 'an eremite came along
   them and counseled the emperor of the yellow army to dress his
   men in green, and the master of the green army that he should
   clothe it in yellow.  But the battle continued as before.  In my
   sabretache, I have a book called THE WONDERS OF URTH AND SKY, and
   the story is told there.'

   'That is the wisest of all the books of men,' the Cumaean said.
   ...

Cheap Street has taken this tale and made a charming little book out
of it.  It has a flowered Japanese paper jacket, yellow endpapers
and green pages (or is that green endpapers and yellow pages?), text
printed in several colors, and a number of lovely illustrations by
Judy King-Rieniets.  The catch is that it's a highly limited
edition.  I think I finally realized that I'm not a collector when I
received this book.  It's really a gorgeous item and I don't mind
having paid for it, but I felt guilty about letting my fingers touch
the pages, and in turn I feel mildly annoyed that I let myself be
intimidated.  I'm a reader at heart; a book to me is the words, not
the investment.  Still, EMPIRES is a lovely example of the
publishing art at its best (even in this edition, which is NOT the
fancy one), and I enjoy looking at it.

Oh, you were curious about the contents too?  It's a novelette that
tells two stories at once, Severian's story about the warring
empires and a story about a little girl who is taken to see these
empires by the wizard Thyme.  (Yes, there's a wizard Sage too -- if
puns make you ill, you'd better avoid Wolfe.) It's not all told in a
dry fairy-tale manner; there's dialogue and action and characters
who step off the page.  It's a fun little piece and I hope it gets
published in a magazine so that more than two hundred readers get to
enjoy it.  One thing is bothering the hell out of me, though -- I
swear that I know where the yellow and green empires fable comes
from, but I can't place it.  Ambrose Bierce comes to mind as the
author, but that could just be a result of the style of the fable.
Does anyone out there have a clue?

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 21:23:38 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Favorite Books

Since the group seems to be deluged with discussions of that bundle
of joy, Wesley Crusher, I thought I'd drop the names of some
favorite obscure SF/F works.  Has anyone read these?  Are there
any comments on them?

   Anderson, Poul.  THE BROKEN SWORD.  (1954) A view of the "hidden
world" of Albion, enchanted Britain.  Anderson's first or second
novel (OK, jayembee, did he write "Vault of the Ages" first?  I
don't remember).  A less traditional fantasy with elves that
definitely *aren't* Tolkien's.

   Anderson, Poul.  A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST.  (1975) Rupert of the Rhine
calls upon Faerie to save King Charles' throne.  A
sideways/alternate history, featuring the world of the "Great
Historian", William Shakespeare.  Well thought out and executed.

   Levin, Ira.  THIS PERFECT DAY. (1973) Marx, Wu, Wood and Wei /
Brought us to this Perfect Day.  A sort of anti-utopia set in a
future without individualism.

   Roberts, Keith.  PAVANE.  (1968?) (The seeds of a discussion have
already begun on this one.)

   Spinrad, Norman.  AGENT OF CHAOS.  (1966) A bizarre nightmarish
future in which a small band of freedom-fighters struggle against an
autocratic State -- and are helped and hindered by the mysterious
Assassins.  An "underground classic", it was the first Spinrad I
ever read, and I think it might be his best.

   Stapledon, Olaf.  ODD JOHN.  (1935) A look at "superhumanity",
from an early master of outre' science fiction.  Stapledon's
mystical outlook sometimes interferes with the story, but it's quite
an interesting one nonetheless.

   Tucker, Wilson.  THE YEAR OF THE QUIET SUN.  (1970) A time travel
experiment results in a disturbing look into the future.  A very
tough book to put down.

   Weinbaum, Stanley.  THE BLACK FLAME.  (1934) Weinbaum is mostly
known for his short stories, such as "A Martian Odyssey" and "The
Lotus Eaters"; this two-part novel details a post-holocaust world
where a group of immortals control the world, and possess everything
but love.  Sappy, but has held up well.

   I'm sure there are others, but these are a start.  Sometimes I
worry that there are so many books written each year, that many
newer SF/F readers completely miss out on the great body of writing
that has gone before (and wind up reading a "Dragonlance" novel --
and I use the term loosely instead.)

Walter

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #517
Date:  2 Dec 87 0837-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #517
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 87 0837-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #517
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 517

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 87  11:33:18 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: STTNG: A New Hope

There may be some hope for STTNG yet. The episode Where None Have
Gone Before and last night's story with the Ferengi were both quite
good.  We learn that Wesley is not just an obnoxious brat like
everyone thought, but has real promise in the field of warp design,
according to the Traveller, who also made Captain Picard realise
this. The portrayal of the Ferengi is much better that that of the
Klingons in the old series. All the Federation people were good, all
the Klingons were evil.  Now we see that although humans and Ferengi
don't really like each other, the Ferengi captain was a villain, but
the first officer arrested his captain when he learned of his
criminal activity. Picard was shown to be human, able to suffer from
mental anxiety, unlike Kirk. He does show great promise as a
starship captain.

andy

------------------------------

Date: MON NOV 23, 1987 09.06.30 EST
From: "Rich Jackson" <RJ00%LEHIGH.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: STNNG

    I have been dismayed over the last batch of SF-LOVERS entries
concerning the Prime Directive, and am forced to comment with my
$0.05 worth.
    The PD was not meant as a save all, catch all; rather, as an
instrument to keep the Federation from sticking its nose in wherever
it went. It is true that races are better off if left to save
themselves; but, in some cases, it may be necessary and morally
correct for the Fed to step in. Such was one faced by my role
playing crew and me this past week.
     Scenario: You are on routine exploration and stumble across a
20th century Earth look alike (or one with just humanoid, or other
intelligent life forms that aren't too hard to disguise yourself as)
with much the same nation state system for international affairs
that we "enjoy" so much. The only differences are that: a) the
planet's science fiction has not covered the possibility of extra
terrestrial life forms, and b) they are fighting a war and are about
to exterminate each other with nuclear weapons. Tactical launches
have already occured, so the infamous Firebreak has been breached. 7
billion souls rest on your decision. What do you do? I dare purists
to tell me that our decision to interfere was wrong. We saved them,
and broke the law doing it.
    I'd love to hear replies. My Id is RJ00@Lehigh for anyone
interested.

Rich J

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 87 11:01:58 CST
From: "Steve C. Gonzales" <$CS1136%LSUVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: 'The Battle'

     The Picard Maneuver. Hmmm, so Mr. Spock hasn't come up with
everything, eh ?  There are a few questions about the episode that
maybe someone can answer.  First of the top, Constitution Class
*after* NCC-1701??  Does anyone know the classes of Star Fleet ships
from Enterprise Class to Constitution Class and then from
Constitution Class to Galaxy Class Starships?
  There was a letter to Sf-Lovers that favored the Ferengi (sp). I
agreed with some but disagreed with most.  I get the impression that
they are a sort of profiteering race of beings hell-bent on crushing
any order aside from their own.  The only one that has been an
exception (there is always an exception to a rule) is the first
officer of the Ferengi ship, and then he was just a slight bit
pressured by Ryker 'First officer to first officer.'
     Why wasn't the parallel between the time Picard started having
the 'headaches' and the time Enterprise met the Ferengi noted to
begin with by Picard?  Supposedly headaches were cured long before
Picard even was in command of a ship.  Even 'the common cold' was
cured (I'd like to know the secret, I have one right now).

     Two things people keep dwelling on are Wesley Crusher as a
character of the series and Picard's 'maybe yes-maybe no' violation
of the PD.  On Crusher, I happen to like him. He has fresh ideas
(much like the young Scotty).  Perhaps one day he will design
another class of starships.
     PD time: If you have reservations about Picard's 'violation; of
the PD, put yourself in his shoes. How would you react to the
situation? People are saying that they like ST:TNG because no one
(aside from *ONE* of the chief engineers) has died yet. A captain's
main consideration should be to his ship and crew; that includes
Wesley Crusher, acting ENS.  I agree with Picard's move to bring the
Edos woman up to the Enterprise.  He was worried about the safety of
a potentially indespensable (sp) crew member in Crusher. As far as
Yar being negligent, she found out all the info she could on the
laws of Edos. It was not her fault if the Edos conveniently left it
out so that the 'pleasure planet' would not have a tarnish mark on
it.  'It' of course means the law of the fenced off areas.

Just one more thing: ch-ch-ch hh-hh-hh!!!  He's Back! Q Lives!  I
still don't know whether to like Q or not. Maybe he'll be the 'Harry
Mudd' of the new series. Comments on that??? !-)

Steve C. Gonzales

------------------------------

Date: TUE NOV 24, 1987 17.57.13 EST
From: "R. Jackson" <RJ00%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek The Next Generation

     I have been greatly disappointed lately that STTNG has
overlooked the best alien race that they ever encountered, the
Romulans (aka Rihansu). Direct relatives to the Vulcans, I would
think that they would have made a logical ally for the Federation to
have; one more logical than even the Klingons who we are coming to
see as friends through Worf. I have looked high and low for a reason
for this lack, and have found nada. Can ANYONE help, and is there a
place that we can write to to complain and add our $0.05 worth?
Please reply. My user name is RJ00@Lehigh and I'm very prompt about
replying to mail.

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1987 13:02:59 EST
From: Ross Patterson <A024012@RUTVM1>
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - The Battle {SF-Lovers V12 #509}

>"Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes:
>   I'm really beginning to enjoy this series.  I really am.

Me too, albeit *VERY* slowly.

>For whoever originally posted the message concerning the Ferrengi
>intelligence, congrats on seeing something in the race that I
>missed.

   WhoEver == Brad Templeton <brad@looking.uucp>.  And he seems to
be closer to the truth than the "Ferrengi == Monkeys" croud.

>I was quite impressed with the integrity of the first officer of
>the Ferrengi vessel.  First, he did not violate his allegiance to
>his Captain, but when it became apparent that he was out for
>vengeance against Captain Picard, he did something about it.  I
>felt that he acted in a much better fashion then did Riker, who
>pressed the Ferrengi first officer for information that, had roles
>been reversed, he would never have given up.

    Yes, but Riker was acting well within his role as First Officer
in attempting to get the skinny out of the Ferrengi FO.  What
suprised me was that he even bothered.  "First Officer to First
Officer"?  Come on.

>In addition, Riker's comment concerning the 'gift' of Picard's old
>ship not being normal for a Ferrengi because 'there was no profit
>in it' was way out of line.

    Nonsense.  We've been told and shown on several occasions that
profit is the driving motive in all Ferrengi actions.  Even the two
who beamed over with the Ferrengi captain (I forget the Ferrengi
term for captain) understood that, from they comments when he said
"at no profit".

>My gripe with Wesley still holds.  I figure they are going to use
>him whenever something that can't be explained needs to be.  And
>someone ought to whip him but good.  For an ensign, especially an
>acting one, he seems to do whatever he damn well pleases...

   I've missed a couple of episodes, but when did Wesley become an
Ensign?  I was quite surprised to head Picard (or was it Riker?)
refer to him by a rank.

>     All in all, a very entertaining and amusing episode.

Yup.

Ross Patterson
Rutgers University

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 18:57:14 GMT
From: ccastkv@pyr.gatech.edu (Keith 'Badger' Vaglienti)
Subject: Re: STTNG: A New Hope

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>There may be some hope for STTNG yet. The episode Where None Have
>Gone Before and last night's story with the Ferengi were both quite
>good.  We learn that Wesley is not just an obnoxious brat like
>everyone thought, but has real promise in the field of warp design,
>according to the Traveller, who also made Captain Picard realise
>this. The portrayal of the Ferengi is muc better that that of the
>Klingons in the old series. All the Federation people were good,
>all the Klingons were evil.  Now we see that although humans and
>Ferengi don't really like each other, the Ferengi captain was a
>villain, but the first officer arrested his captain when he learned
>of his criminal activity. Picard was shown to be human, able to
>suffe from mental anxiety, unlike Kirk. He does show great promise
>as a starship captain.

STTNG does show promise but then I have always thought that it
showed promise but that the promise was going unfulfilled. I hated
WNOHGB for what would appear to be the exact reason you liked it. It
turns Wesley into a messiah like figure. Its not bad enough that we
have to put up some Hollywood version of a super-genius but now we
have to put up with their version of a super- genius messiah. "The
Battle" is the first episode that Wesley has appeared in that I have
been able to tolerate him in.

As for the Ferengi, I like the personalities they are developing but
they still don't cut it for me visually. Maybe if their teeth didn't
jut out of their mouthes so far or if they were physically more
impressive or if they weren't "all ears." As for the arrest of the
Ferengi captain, I think you are ignoring the fact that he was not
arrested for seeking revenge against Picard. He was arrested because
there was no material profit in his revenge. Had he at least broken
even in the deal he would probably have been allowed to continue
with his plans, thought maker or no thought maker.

And if you don't think Kirk could suffer I think you need to go back
and watch some of STTOS like City on the Edge of Forever or The
Paradise Syndrome.

Keith Vaglienti
Georgia Insitute of Technology
Atlanta Georgia, 30332
{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!pyr.gatech.EDU!ccastkv

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 14:01:57 PST (Wednesday)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - "The Battle"
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

>missed.  I was quite impressed with the integrity of the first
>officer of the Ferrengi vessel.  First, he did not violate his
>allegiance to his Captain, but when it became apparent that he was
>out for vengeance against Captain Picard, he did something about
>it.

   I believe that he violated his allegiance when it was obvious
that his captain was not planning on getting any profit from the
endeavor.

>My gripe with Wesley still holds.  I figure they are going to use
>him whenever something that can't be explained needs to be.  And
>someone ought to whip him but good.  For an ensign, especially an
>acting one, he seems to do whatever he damn well pleases...

   Well said.  Lets all hope that Wes soon takes a long trip to
Starfleet Academy for intensive training (hopefully as a security
officer).

>The Enterprise, along with all of the other ships in the federation
>are preceeded with the letters USS.  Now, in modern (our time) day,
>doesn't USS stand for United States Something or other???  Why
>would a federation vessel for the United Federation of Planets
>carry the initials for a country that made up only a small part of
>it's population?  Wouldn't the prefix UFP have been more
>appropriate?

   I believe that USS stands for something like United Star Ship and
not United States Ship.

MEP

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 87 10:24 EDT
From: "George Barbanis, Heldenprogrammer"
From: <BARBANIS%cs.umass.edu@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: STTNG: The Battle

After the "Last Outpost" idiotic Ferrengi, I'm glad to see that they
got a fair chance.  Loyal to their superiors, abiding by a strict
code of ethics (always make a profit)... all the makings of
interstellar villains you love to hate :-) Plus, some nice lines:
"As you would say, I'm all ears".  Yes, now I find the Ferrengi
quite interesting.

Quoth the Captain: "Don't they teach you about tractor beam
conservation?"  Well, back in the old days, they used to call it
conservation of momentum.  But maybe it's the headache.

BTW, who makes the Thought Makers?  The Ferrengi first officer seems
to know these devices quite well, although none aboard the
Enterprise knows what they are?  Any theories?  My theory is that
the culprit is some clandestine Ferrengi workshop.

Re NCC: In ST IV(tVH), we see that the Excelsior's number is
NCX-something (I'm not sure about that, but it definitely wasn't
NCC).  I'd say that they have no special meaning other than serial
numbers (Occam's razor and all that stuff).  And by the way: In a
STTNG episode (cant remember which), they gather in some conference
room, where they have on display a shuttlecraft replica.  Now this
replica has NCC-1701 (NOT NCC-1701D) on it.  Maybe it's the old
enterprise shuttle?

George Barbanis
UMass - Amherst

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 07:59:38 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - "The Battle"

MFL1@lehigh.BITNET ("Mitchel Ludwig") writes:
>letters USS.  Now, in modern (our time) day, doesn't USS stand for
>United States Something or other???  Why would a federation vessel
>for the United Federation of Planets carry the initials for a
>country that made up only a small part of it's population?
>Wouldn't "UFP" or something have been more appropriate?

Yeah, it would, but I could swear I've heard Kirk say at least once,
"United StarShip Enterprise" (whatever THAT might mean).

I have also read somewhere (possibly in TMOST), but never heard
spoken, the phrase "United Systems Ship", referring to all the
united star systems that make up the Federation.  This makes some
sense, and I like the sound of it better than that of "United
StarShip".

Any other info out there?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 87 03:35:23 GMT
From: qiclab!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek

drwho@bsu-cs.UUCP (Neil P. Marsh) writes:
>dkrause@UCIVMSA.BITNET writes:
>> more".  But one thing they didn't address is that Wes did violate
>> the laws of the Edos (I hope I remember that correctly) on the
>> planet of
>
>BUT!  Do you not also remember the fact that the Edo did not fully
>disclose their laws and punishments when asked?  The punishment of
>death is not a deterrent when the punishment and crime are not
>known -- OR ARE WITHELD!

It doesn't matter whether it is a detterent or not. It was still a
violation of the law. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. (you
can be convicted of murder for shooting a cop during a "no knock"
search. It is irrelevant that you thought he was a burglar!)

You are confusing "law" and "justice". They aren't the same thing.
What you want is equity (i.e. fairness).  You won't get it from any
judicial system. They are _solely_ concerned with whether or not you
followed the rules. They are _NOT_ concerned with the fairness of
the rules. That is a matter for the legislative system.

Leonard Erickson
tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
tektronix!reed!qiclab!leonard

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #518
Date:  2 Dec 87 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #518
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 87 0851-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #518
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 518

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Bunch & Calvino &
                    King & McCaffrey (3 msgs) & Peirce &
                    Rice & Russo & Saberhagen & Scholz &
                    Tolkien

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mtune!mtgzy!ecl@RUTGERS.EDU (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Review: ROBOT CITY I: ODYSSEY
Date: 28 Nov 87 14:54:15 GMT

                     ISAAC ASIMOV'S ROBOT CITY
            BOOK I: ODYSSEY by Michael P. Kube-McDowell
                     Ace, 1987, ISBN 0-441-73122-8
                 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper

     Michael Kube-McDowell's ODYSSEY starts out with two strikes
against it: it's set in someone else's universe, and it's the first
book of a series.  So why did I buy it?  Good question--I wish I had
a good answer.

     I understand why authors like to write stories set in
pre-formed universes.  After all, one advantage that mainstream
writers have over science fiction writers is that they don't have to
think up or society or other background to go with their plot.  And
for those who like Sherlock Holmes, or STAR TREK, or Asimov's
positronic robots, the lure of a new addition to the ouvre can be a
powerful inducement to part with their $2.95 (or in this case, my
$1.79, since I bought ODYSSEY used).

     And the trend is becoming popular.  Recently the science
fiction and fantasy field has seen a lot of "shared-world"
anthologies (Robert Aspirin's "Thieves' World" and Janet Morris's
"Heroes in Hell" are among the most popular).  Now in addition, we
are seeing more and more books with the blurb "X writing in the
Science Fiction Worlds of Y."  (Usually this can be expressed more
accurately as "Joe Unknown writing in the Science Fiction Worlds of
John Multiple-Hugo-Winner.")  In the last few months, in addition to
the "positronic robot" series we have seen Charles Platt's PLASM (a
sequel to Piers Anthony's CHTHON and PHTHOR), two interactive
fiction books by Mark Acres set in Robert Heinlein's "Starship
Troopers" world, and undoubtedly others that I have missed.  There's
even a new "Venus Prime" series (the first one, BREAKING THE STRAIN,
by Paul Preuss) which claims to have been inspired by Arthur C.
Clarke, whatever that means.  What's odd about this is that these
books are appearing while the original authors are still alive--it
used to be the case that such novels were written after the original
author died and people had to give up all hope of ever getting any
more from him or her.

     However, as Orson Scott Card has so eloquently observed, when
an author writes a novel in another author's universe, s/he
*doesn't* write an original novel.  Not just, mind you, that the
novel that is written is un-original, but also that there is an
original novel that *isn't* written.  As Card observes, Heinlein's
"Lensman" novel might have been great, but luckily he decided to
write STARSHIP TROOPERS and GLORY ROAD instead.  And I'm sure
Haldeman's sequel to STARSHIP TROOPERS would have been excellent,
but the field has been enriched by the fact that he wrote THE
FOREVER WAR instead.  What novel did Kube-McDowell *not* write when
he wrote ODYSSEY?  Is there a limbo for unborn novels, as many
believed there was for the souls of yet- unborn children, and if so,
what lives there?

     ODYSSEY's other flaw is more prosaic--and also more and more
common.  Once again we have, not the first book of a series, but the
first third(?)  of a novel.  There is no resolution at the end of
this volume.  The second part (Mike McQuay's SUSPICION) is now out,
but any future parts remain unavailable.  At least in the movies
when you paid for Chapter 1 of THE PHANTOM EMPIRE you got a
full-length complete feature film with it (or even two).  The flaw
is exacerbated by the omission of any mention on the cover that this
is NOT a self-contained story.  Even a cake mix tells you on the
*outside* of the box what ingredients are missing.

     So with two strikes against it already, what would I say about
the book itself?  Well, it's not even a good addition to Asimov's
positronic robots.  The robots are a very small part of what is
going on, they don't ring true, and there are non-human alien races,
a very non-Asimovian touch.  All in all, I would have to rate this
book a strike-out.  It could be that the second and third novels
will make it all worthwhile, but I'm not inspired to spend my money
to find out.

Evelyn C. Leeper
(201) 957-2070
UUCP:   ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
ARPA:   mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 87 09:46:09 MEZ
From: Carsten Zimmer <OR776%DBNUOR1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Asimov

Some weeks ago I have found a list of books describing the the
extended foundation cycle (in parentheses the german titles):

1) the complete robot    (Alle Roboter-Geschichten)
2) the caves of steel    (Der Mann von drueben / Die Stahlhoehlen)
3) the naked sun         (Die nackte Sonne)
4) the robots of dawn    (Aurora oder der Aufbruch zu den Sternen)
5) robots and empire     (Das galaktische Imperium)
6)     -----         a novel not written yet
7) the currents of space (Der fiebernde Planet)
8) the stars like dust   (Sterne wie Staub)
9) pebble in the sky     (Radioaktiv...!)
10) prelude to foundation -----   currently being written
11) foundation            (Der Tausendjahresplan)
12) foundation and empire (Der galaktische General)
13) second foundation     (Alle Wege fuehren nach Trantor)
14) foundations's edge    (Auf der Suche nach der Erde)
15) foundation and earth  (Die Rueckkehr zur Erde)

Has anyone heard something about novels 6) and 10)

Carsten Zimmer

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 20:08:00 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Allan Terry)
Subject: Re: Another open question, or 2

You know, this is the first time I have run into somebody who had
even heard of Bunch.  I read, and enjoyed, Moderan.  Even that was a
used copy from Moe's; I've never seen his work "in the original".
The only other thing I have seen of his was an essay on the madness
of American highways in some small press magazine.  Was written in
the same style of 60s Tom Wolfe with the delivery of a demented
revival preacher.  I also want to know if he has written anything
else.  I don't care what, his style is as much fun as his message.

Allan Terry

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 19:24:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Is Calvino SF?

Who cares if Calvino's work is science fiction? He was nominated for
some SF award. So was Kurt Vonnegut, but Vonnegut would probably
beat you up if you call him a science fiction writer.

I've enjoyed all of Calvino's books that I've read. Cosmicomics and
T-zero are very similar in format and flavor, and both will be
interesting for people who like science fiction. But if you're also
interested in Pynchon-esque conspiracies and wild-goose chases,
convoluted metafiction and a complete dismantling of your reading
habits and assumptions, try If on a Winter's Night a Traveller,
which I consider to be his masterpiece.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 04:27:38 GMT
From: smeyer@topaz.rutgers.edu (Seth Meyer)
Subject: The (Original) Stand

I heard today that the original text written by Stephen King will be
printed by 1990.  It is an additional 200 pages which was omitted
because the publisher thought that the book would not sell with the
additional pages.  Anybody else heard about this?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 02:02:11 GMT
From: uunet!dalcs!dalcsug!euloth@RUTGERS.EDU (George Seto)
Subject: Re: Pern as SF



Bill Wisner wrote that:
> It was not made entirely clear, but I caught signals throughout
> the series that said quite clearly, Pern was colonized by people
> from another world. Such hints are sprinkled throughout the books,
> if one looks hard enough.

It wasn't just a signal, as right from the first book, it was stated
in the prologue to the stories. And as well in the White Dragon it
ended with F'lar and Lessa discovering in orbit, the 'sisters'
weren't stars but some kind of satellite indicating that they might
be the colony ships that brought the original settlers to the
planet. Didn't they unearth one of the shuttle ships near the end of
White Dragon?

George Seto

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 11:49:25 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: Pern as SF

billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>I personally think that McCaffrey had that SFish setting in mind
>all along, but I've known people who have said that she actually
>just wanted to write a romance and added the spaceships to make
>more money.

I distinctly remember, in the very first Pern story, "Weyr Search",
references which made it clear that, at the very least, Pernese
society had collapsed from a much higher technological level.  There
were scraps of the older technology all over the place.

Besides, John Campbell bought that story, didn't he?  If ever there
was a person who knew the difference between science fiction and
fantasy, it was Campbell (unless, of course, you consider psi to be
fantasy).

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 08:51:37 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: Pern as SF

billw@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes:
>farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>>Besides, John Campbell bought that story, didn't he?
>I don't know, you tell me. Did he?

Jeez.  Are all you HASA types unaware of the expression "rhetorical
question"?  For information's sake: Weyr Search, a novella by Anne
McCaffrey, appeared in the October, 1967 issue of Analog Science
Fiction/ Science Fact, edited by John W. Campbell.  In the preface
to that story, it is explicitly stated that Pern was settled by
colonists from Earth, establishing, from the beginning, McCaffrey's
intent to write a science fiction story, not a fantasy.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 19:31:33 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Review: NAPOLEON DISENTIMED

>From the introductory blurb, I get the impression that Bova is
>attempting to imitate the "Ace Science Fiction Specials" series
>that Terry Carr edited so successfully before his death.

Not strictly true. Ben's trying to put together a forum for good
first novelists, which is what Carr did with the Ace SF Specials,
but from my discussions with him he isn't really trying to emulate
Carr. His main interest is helping new writers get over the hump,
get published, and get some exposure. He's not necessarily looking
for the breakthrough, award winning books (although he doesn't turn
THOSE down, either...) but good manuscripts from good people.

>But judging from this novel--admittedly a very small sample,
>statistically speaking--Bova has a ways to go.

Napoleon disentimed is a fun book. Peirce has a wry sense of humor
and a strong appreciation for Marx Brothers movies and Gilbert &
Sullivan, both of which contribute to the activity of the book. It's
got some rough edges, but it's fun. It isn't a deep, thoughtful
book, but it wasn't written to be, so knocking it (or the Bova
Discovery series) down for that is like claiming an orange isn't
good because it isn't an Apple.

>It is not fair to judge the series on the basis of a single book.
>It is certainly true that the "Ace Science Fiction Specials" had
>their share of duds.  One must regret, for example, that the last
>book in that series, at least under Carr, was Loren MacGregor's THE
>NET, a thoroughly average book.

It also isn't good to read your own assumptions into the series. I
think Bova discoveries has potential, and it'll be interesting to
see what he does with it. One big difference between Discoveries and
Ace SF is that the Discoveries series has Tor behind it, and ad
money, so the authors will have good visibility, unlike the "Isaac
Asimov Presents" series [quick: how many IAP books have been
published, by whom, and how many have you read????]

And as a final riposte, I happen to think that "The Net" is a
wonderful book.  Fully in line with Carr's Ace SF series, and much
better than ecl implies.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 10:06 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Anne Rice

>> Anyone else read these?
>   Yes!  I have read _Interview with the Vampire_ and thought it
>was excellent.  I enjoyed the view of a vampire as a regular person
>caught up in a bizarre situation, as opposed to a "Prince of
>Darkness".  I haven't yet read _The Vampire Lestat_, though it is
>sitting on my shelf at home (too many books, not enough time).  I'm
>glad to hear it is a good read.  I shall get to it sooner or later.

I can only agree heartily. _Interview_ is beautiful in a kind of
quiet, contemplating way. _Lestat_ has more action, but the
characterization doesn't suffer in any way. If possible, _Lestat_
kept me even more on my toes. It gave me dark circles under my eyes,
sunken cheeks and a pronounced pallor due to lack of sleep, food and
fresh air. It's funny, but my friends complain that I never seem to
be out in the daytime anymore.

Kai

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 11:09 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Vampire novels

_The Awakening_ by John Russo is about a guy waking up in the 20.
century after having been (wrongfully) accused of being a vampire,
and executed 300 (or was it 200) years ago. The rituals and
mumbo-jumbo - a stake through his heart, garlic around his neck etc.
- somehow changed him to the thing he was accused of being.  (My,
what elegant prose).

Kai

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 10:52 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Vampire novels

A while ago I read a book by Saberhagen called _The Dracula Tapes_.
Yes, that's right, it's the story of Dracula, as seen from his
viewpoint.  I thought it was very good at the time. (I was 15 or
16). I seem to recall that it was part of a series. Is this correct?
In that case, what are the names of the other books ?

Kai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 87 13:07:14 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: PALIMPSESTS

> ...  While it's true that some of Carr's selections were somewhat
> traditional science fiction (Kim Stanley Robinson's THE WILD
> SHORE, for example), others like Shepard's GREEN EYES and Carter
> Scholz's PALIMPSESTS were more unusual stylistic experiments.

I'd like to read comments anyone has on PALIMPSESTS. I've been
reading it slowly for some time now, stopping and reading other
things and coming back to it. So far, it hasn't seemed to be SF at
all, except for the "McGuffin" (weird object) in it. Maybe it will
get more SF-like later on (I'm about halfway through it).

So far, my main impression has been that the characters are strange,
and it is hard to understand their motivations. This usually isn't
too much of a problem in SF; you expect it in many books. But when
the characters are supposed to be relatively contemporary people
living in the same society you do, it has more of an effect.

Regards,

Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA
...!seismo!wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 87 09:46:09 MEZ
From: Carsten Zimmer <OR776%DBNUOR1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Tolkien

There exists a serial edited by Christopher Tolkien with the main
title "History of Middle-Earth" consisting of at least 4 books:

1)  Book of Lost Tales, Part One
2)  Book of Lost Tales, Part Two
3)  The Lays of Beleriand
4)  The Shaping of Middle-Earth

Is the fourth book published now and if so, where can I get it?

Carsten Zimmer

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #519
Date:  2 Dec 87 0913-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #519
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 87 0913-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #519
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 519

Today's Topics:

               Television - Old SF TV Shows (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 19:09:14 GMT
From: archer@elysium.sgi.com (Archer Sully)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

I wasn't aware that there was a second season of Quark.  I know that
there was a half season that was done at the same time as
'When Things Were Rotten', but I don't recall that it was picked
up as a regular show.

archer

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 01:11:05 GMT
From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

Does "Mr. Terrific" count?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 14:18:03 GMT
From: ndd@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ned Danieley)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

strac01@rocky.oswego.edu.UUCP (Doug Eckersley) writes:
>Time Tunnel - The 60's classic I never saw.  I was young then, you
>know.

Ah, yes, Time Tunnel. If I remember correctly, this was an Irwin
Allen series. I have a book by Murray Leinster that covers the start
of the series: who built the project, and how Doug and Tony got
stuck in time.  It had some pretty good effects for the time: I
especially liked the method of getting into the facility. You'd see
a car driving along the desert, and suddenly a (large) ramp opens up
and down you go! I forget who was in Time Tunnel, except for Lee
Meriweather.

Another Irwin Allen production was Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea,
with the great opening scene of the Seaview driving up out of the
water at about 45 degrees, and then falling back. It was also neat
when the sub was attacked by a giant squid: they'd turn on the
degaussing field and shock that sucker (-:)) senseless. The series
was preceded by a movie (with Walter Pidgeon?); Theodore Sturgeon
wrote the novel. I've always wondered whether it was a novelization
of the screen play, or if it was original.

Ned Danieley
ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710
(919) 684-6807 or 684-6942

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 20:42:41 GMT
From: ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

Does anyone know or remember any of the details about any of the
Following shows?

1. A show called the Phoenix, about this alien who wore some type of
medallion.

2.A show about some "wild boy", who had escaped from scientists who
had found him. I think the show ran on ABC.

3.A show about a salvage operation, starring Andy Griffith.

Any info would be appreciated.

Tony

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 01:50:39 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

strac01@rocky.oswego.edu.UUCP (Doug Eckersley) writes:
>Land of the Lost - What a classic!  It's still shown in some places
>in syndication.  I've always wondered just where, specifically,
>they were.  I think there was a cast change.  I remember the
>episode where they went home.  Pylons, Sleestak, ah... what
>memories!

   Yes, I second this nomination (for classic-hood).  Thjough I
preferred the first season slightly to the second (with substitute
Mr Marshall), I liked both and thought the show superior, in terms
of imagination, not just sp f-x.  Considering it was Sat morning
kiddie fare, I think that says a lot.

>UFO - I don't remember much about this one.  Do you?

Yes, I remember.  UFO was and is one of my favorites.  Those water-
breathing aliens!  The constant mystery of it.  The sets.  Etc, etc.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 20:40:25 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet) writes:
> Does anyone know or remember any of the details about any of the
> Following shows?
>
> 1. A show called the Phoenix, about this alien who wore some type
> of medallion.

Yes, the man character was called Benu, which is how I refer to that
acter in ALL the many SF shows and movies he has appeared in since.
He was STII : WoK; he was the guy manning the shields in Kahn gang.
He also keeps appearing in practically everything (he was even in
general Hostpital).

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 00:13:18 GMT
From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet) writes:
> Does anyone know or remember any of the details about any of the
> Following shows?
>
> 2. A show about some "wild boy", who had escaped from scientists
> who had found him.  I think the show ran on ABC.

  This would be 'Lucan', about the boy who was raised by wolves.

> 3.A show about a salvage operation, starring Andy Griffith.

  This show was titled 'Salvage 1' if I remember right....

 Other than titles, I can't remember much about 'Salvage 1'.
'Lucan' was very much like Fox's 'Werewolf' is now -- a guy being
chased because he's different.

Joanne Brooks
U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr
Consulting Staff
BITNET: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET
Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 04:12:49 GMT
From: mtune!mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (XMRP50000[jdp]-m.r.leeper)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet) writes:
> Does anyone know or remember any of the details about any of the
> Following shows?

These are pretty easy.  I never watched the programs but I can
identify them.

> 1. A show called the Phoenix, about this alien who wore some type
> of medallion.

This was about an ancient alien resurrected from a South or Central
American tomb.  Not very good.

> 2.A show about some "wild boy", who had escaped from scientists
> who had found him.  I think the show ran on ABC.

This is LUCAN which was based on a TV-pilot that starred Kevin
Brophy.  He probably also starred in the series.  The pilot was made
in 1977 and it seems to me that the series followed it immediately.

> 3.A show about a salvage operation, starring Andy Griffith.

This is SALVAGE 1.  The series ran in 1979.  A just dealer starts
his own space launching business.  In addition to AG it starred
Trish Stewart and J. Jay Saunders.

Mark Leeper
...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 20:17:40 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Mike J) writes:
>ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet) writes:
>> Does anyone know or remember any of the details about any of the
>> Following shows?
>>
>> 1. A show called the Phoenix, about this alien who wore some type
>> of medallion.
>
>Yes, the man character was called Benu, which is how I refer to
>that acter in ALL the many SF shows and movies he has appeared in
>since.  He was STII : WoK; he was the guy manning the shields in
>Kahn gang.  He also keeps appearing in practically everything (he
>was even in general Hostpital).

   You're referring to Judson Scott, I presume. His name wasn't
listed in the credits due to a misunderstanding with his agent, but
he played Joachim, Khan's right-hand-man (and his son, according to
fan lore, but I have *no* idea where this originated).

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 14:20:21 GMT
From: drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

strac01@rocky.oswego.edu.UUCP (Doug Eckersley) writes:
>Land of the Lost - What a classic!  It's still shown in some places
>in syndication.  I've always wondered just where, specifically,
>they were.  I think there was a cast change.  I remember the
>episode where they went home.  Pylons, Sleestak, ah... what
>memories!

Did they ever really get home, or was it a hoax, a dream, or an
imaginary story?  I considered this show better than run-of-the-mill
Saturday-morning fare for its first couple of seasons, but it went
seriously downhill during the third season with "Uncle Jack."
Anyway, was there a big-finish final episode where everybody made it
back?  I certainly don't recall one.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 87 19:06:07 GMT
From: karenw@puff.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

frodo@bucc2.UUCP writes:
> andrew.cmu.edu!da1n+ writes:
>>Another show like that was one involving the bermuda triangle,
>>where this group of travelers got lost on some island in the
>>bermuda triangle and as a result, were whisked around time for
>>every episode.  Again, I don't remember much of it.  Anybody know
>>anything about these shows or am I just on drugs?
>
> As a matter of fact, I was thinking of bringing that one up in
> this notelist...I really loved that show, and then was really
> upset when they took it off the air.  I also remember that the
> party got seperated somehow....  And I think that the same kid who
> played the brother in the Witch Mountain movies was one of the
> main characters.

This show was called "The Fantastic Journey" (not to be confused
with "The Fantastic Voyage") and played opposite "Welcome Back,
Kotter". The premise was pretty good (a group of people caught in
the Bermuda triangle, so that every week they would meet people from
a different time/place/culture) but the execution was awful. I can't
remember the actor who starred in it (the character was Varian, a
man from Our Future or Another Galaxy, I can't remember), but he's
now on one of the nighttime soaps. (Isn't it interesting how actors
from bad sf shows end up on nighttime soaps?  Look at the Man From
Atlantis on Dallas.) It also starred Roddy McDowall, Ike Eisenmann
(of Witch Mountain and Wrath of Khan fame), and Carl Williams (whom
I've never seen again), plus a couple of others who never seemed
important.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 87 08:44:57 GMT
From: dmjones@athena.mit.edu (David M. Jones)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

carols@drilex.UUCP (Carol Springs) writes, in reference to "Land of
the Lost":
>Did they ever really get home, or was it a hoax, a dream, or an
>imaginary story?  I considered this show better than
>run-of-the-mill Saturday-morning fare for its first couple of
>seasons, but it went seriously downhill during the third season
>with "Uncle Jack."  Anyway, was there a big-finish final episode
>where everybody made it back?  I certainly don't recall one.

My memory is a little fuzzy here, but I seem to vaguely recall that
they did indeed make it back home, or at least this was strongly
implied in one of the episodes.  The only scene I can remember is
the very last one of the episode. As they were leaving, they looked
back at the giant waterfall and saw themselves once again falling
down it, i.e., the same scene that was used in the opening credits.
I remember being very confused at the time.

That was one of my favorite series when I was young.  I love to be
able to see it again, except that I'm afraid it could never live up
to the memories I have.  Sigh.

David M. Jones
3 Ames Street
Cambridge, MA  02139
dmjones@athena.mit.edu
...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!dmjones

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 87 05:27:47 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: Old SF shows

Someone recalled "UFO" - I remember "Commander Straker" and his
office that became a secret-entrance elevator to SHADO headquarters;
the SkyDiver submarine/air-launch vehicle; Moonbase (the funky
hairdos with the point coming down at the bridge of the nose -- my
sister, 'prox 7 yrs at the time, drew a picture and had the
hairdresser do HER hair that way for a year or so...) -- but never
managed to pick up anything coherent about the ALIENS in the UFOs.
Seemed to me they were always "just missing" the big breakthrough in
finding out who they were, where they were from, etc. etc.  (Episode
fragments: the UFOs "froze time" for Straker at SHADO in one
episode; SHADO space probe followed UFO 'home' but pix were useless
because didn't transmit distance/magnification perspective info...
Alien actually recovered ONCE, dead but wearing small-pupil contact
lenses...

Another BBC series I really enjoyed was "My Partner The Ghost."
Would LOVE to find some videos or other materials on it -- anyone
else remember it?  Anyone know what ever became of it, how many
seasons it ran, etc.?

Chris Chiesa
..{backbones}!iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 87 09:47:13 GMT
From: greely@orange.cis.ohio-state.edu (john greely)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows

dmjones@athena.mit.edu (David M. Jones) writes:
>carols@drilex.UUCP (Carol Springs) writes, in reference to "Land of
>the Lost":
>>Did they ever really get home, or was it a hoax, a dream, or an
>>imaginary story?  Anyway, was there a big-finish final episode
>>where everybody made it back?  I certainly don't recall one.
>
>My memory is a little fuzzy here, but I seem to vaguely recall that
>they did indeed make it back home, or at least this was strongly
>implied in one of the episodes.  The only scene I can remember is
>the very last one of the episode. As they were leaving, they looked
>back at the giant waterfall and saw themselves once again falling
>down it, i.e., the same scene that was used in the opening credits.
>I remember being very confused at the time.

  Wasn't this the episode with the lizard-man scientist who claimed
they had disturbed some cosmic balance, and could only leave if they
let themselves arrive?  This was more than a little confusing, but I
was young enough to keep quiet.  The storyline seemed to be that
their entry into the land of the lost had upset some balance, and
they must leave, but to leave they had to bring in the exact same
number of people (?).  The lizard-man (I *think* he was a lizard)
showed them a picture of their entry (the opening clip), but it was
incomplete.  The other party was trapped on the waterfall, and went
through it again and again.  Our heroes left, and the new crew
arrived (but why this would restore a balance is beyond me).

  If I remember right, this was *not* the last episode.

...!cbosgd!osu-cis!tut!orange!greely
greely@orange.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  1 Dec 87  12:58:05 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows
To: 7gmadiso@pomona, schwartz@gondor.psu.edu, eckers09@snypotba

Quark : I only saw one episode, the one with the voracious space
   creature, and loved it! I have a still in my room.

Ark II : Sounds familiar, but I can't put my finger on it.

Space Academy & Jason Of Star Command : Weren't these two the same
   show?  Cute.

The Fantastic Journey : Do you mean The Fantastic Voyage?

The Young Sentinels : A typical Saturday-morning cartoon.

Electra-Woman And Dyna-Girl : "Frank, we need more power! More
   power!" 'nuff said!

The Lost Saucer : Bahahahaha! Dorse, half-dog half-horse! Fi and
   Fum! Elbows away!

Starlost : I've been hearing a lot about this one but never saw it.

Land Of The Lost : What a classic, great show! Pylons, skylons,
   grumpy, alice, spot, dopey, sleestak, enic.... Apparently the
   father went through a time doorway and afterwards uncle Jack came
   searching for them and got trapped as well.

UFO : Was this the one with a base on the moon when alien saucers
   with lasers battles Earth "vipers" firing missiles?

Time Tunnel : I have a book of the same name, never heard of the
   show.

Dr. Shrinker : Yeuch!

And how about these, people?
The Enemy Within
Otherworld
Powers of Matthew Star
Knight Rider
Space Ghost, Herculoids, Teen Force
Big Foot and Wild Boy

What a minute! Ark II? That was about a post-holocaust Earth where a
team of 5 scientists traveled the planet in a large vehicle helping
out any survivors they found. Quite good.

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
BITNet: nutto%UMass.BITNet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #520
Date:  2 Dec 87 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #520
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 87 0933-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #520
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 520

Today's Topics:

             Books - Brust (6 msgs) & Clarke (2 msgs) &
                     M. John Harrison (2 msgs) &
                     Spinrad (2 msgs) & A request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 87 22:29:02 -0800
From: Alastair Milne <milne@Q2.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recently Read

>From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no>
>> I just read a book by a (to me) completely unknown author by the
>> name of Stephen Brust. The title escapes me (I'm at work, my book
>> is at home), but I think it was something like "A Dragon in
>> Paradise".
Narciso Jaramillo replies:
>No--it was _To Reign in Hell_.  No dragons in this one, just
>angels.  :-)

*possible mild spoiler*

   If I remember rightly, several of the angels of the First and/or
Second Waves had suffered badly from successive Waves, and had taken
on new form in consequence.  One had taken the form of a dog; one
that of an owl; I believe Leviathan had the form of a whale; and one
angel, who had retreated to mountains in the north for complete
isolation, had the form of a dragon.  The angel who went to get his
help (I can almost remember her name: Lucifer perhaps) was certainly
female, though I can't remember her physical attributes.  And when
she brought him back, she certainly was flying on him.  She sprang
from his back to try to help Harut when it looked as if he was going
to be drowned.

   So the cover is probably not quite as irrelevant as it may seem.

Alastair Milne

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 18:04:56 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDoanld)
Subject: To Reign in Hell

milne@Q2.ICS.UCI.EDU (Alastair Milne) writes:
>I believe Leviathan had the form of a whale; and one angel, who had
>retreated to mountains in the north for complete isolation, had the
>form of a dragon.  The angel who went to get his help (I can almost
>remember her name: Lucifer perhaps) was certainly female, though I
>can't remember her physical attributes.

 Yes, Behemouth (sp?) was the angel in the "north" who took the form
of a dragon, and it was Lilith, if I remember right, who went to get
him.  She was definitly in humanoid form, thus their flight back to
the sea is what inspired the cover.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 21:27:19 GMT
From: iuvax!ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (Narciso Jaramillo)
Subject: Re _To Reign in Hell_:

Yes, you're exactly right--it was Lilith, riding on Belial.  I'd
forgotten about that.  But Belial's dragonform wasn't really a major
point in the story, and he (it?) is the only dragon...

rutgers!iuvax!ndmath!nj
ucbvax!mica!nj

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 01:49:20 GMT
From: deb@svax.cs.cornell.edu (David Baraff)
Subject: Re: Tying 'Brokedown Palace' to 'Jhereg'

Has anyone out there read this? What did you think?

I just got through re-reading it, because I planned to start in on
the sequel "A Man Rides Through" and I needed to refresh my memory.

Having read "Mirror" the 2nd time through, I've decided that
Donaldson is a GREAT writer (at least in this book). The thing I
think is fantastic about the book is this:

Terisa's main character point (at first) is her inability to DO
anything. And it frustrates her. She wants to be effective, take
action but she can't. AND YOU FEEL THE FRUSTRATION AS YOU READ THE
BOOK!

Now as a reader, you find yourself frustrated at her inability as
well. I mean, you sit there and say "Damn it! Tel; [so-and-so] what
just happened!" Or, "Tell Geraden you like him" or etc.  This drove
me crazy my first read through -- but that's the whole point!
Donaldson makes you feel the frustration Terisa is experiencing --
the inability to act, and the difficulty in communicating with
others, notably Geraden.  And as time goes on and she IS able to
influence things, do things, as the reader, you begin to experience
the same feeling of accomplishment, of breaking through and finally
being able to take action.

I'm currently reading the sequel, "A Man Rides Through". It is
great.  Well, what do y'all think?

David Baraff

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 22:55:57 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: Tying 'Brokedown Palace' to 'Jhereg'

Spoilers mostly for Brokedown Palace

brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks) writes:
>I think that Devera is the tie-in between these stories.  I have
>never read 'Brokedown Palace', mainly because I couldn't find it
>whenever I went back to get it.
>
>Just what is Devera's role in 'Brokedown Palace' ?  Email is
>fine....I don't mind spoilers, but others could....

Devera has a cameo role in BP.  She pops up (teleports in) at the
border to Faerie - a land in which the sun doesn't shine, and which
contains lords capable of stupendous works of sorcery (sounds like
Dragaera to me).  She also walks on at the very end.  In both cases,
she adds nothing to the plot but as a tie-in to the other stories.
It is my thought that Brust put her in just to make sure everyone
got the idea that BP ties in with his Vlad novels.

There are other clues.  The flora and fauna are the same.  Miklos
returns from Faerie with an animal embrodered on his tunic, after
working in the fields for his lord, and a "pathway to the source" -
sounds like he got a link to the orb by joining the House of Teckla.

The Demon Goddess is real.  Nine feet tall with an extra joint on
the fingers.  Some might think this is a Dragaeran, I would argue
that she's Jenoine - but then, I can't remember whether Dragaerans
have an extra finger joint.  Not enough info for anything but
speculation.

Other than the fact that the taltos beasts are called by the same
name as Vlad's surname, I don't see any conection here.  Since the
beast draws power seemingly from the river, taltos animals might be
some kind of Riverine, but that would be stretching things.

Cawti is another tie-in.  Note that in BP, Brigitta wanders off
pregnant to Faerie and that when asked, Devera "predicts" that
Brigitta will die, but the child, a daughter will prosper.  In her
earlier appearance, she made some mention about being "too early" -
a little inadvertant time travel to set up the "prophecy", maybe.
Remember that Cawti has no last name, or wouldn't tell?  Perhaps she
didn't want Vlad to know her blood was royal, or that she was a
bastard.

What about the fact that Brigitta was half-demon?  This would make
Cawti 1/4 demon.  What's a demon and how come they can interbreed
with humans?  Dragaerans can't, as far as we know.  Perhaps Jenoine,
the only other race we know of, can.

Anyway, isn't Brust just about due for another book?  It seems that
he produces about one book a year, which would mean that there
should be another one soon.  Has anyone heard something about a new
book?

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 16:09:26 GMT
From: dave@viper.lynx.mn.org (David Messer)
Subject: Re: Tying 'Brokedown Palace' to 'Jhereg'

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tim Iverson) writes:
>There are other clues.  The flora and fauna are the same.  Miklos
>returns from Faerie with an animal embrodered on his tunic, after
>working in the fields for his lord, and a "pathway to the source" -
>sounds like he got a link to the orb by joining the House of
>Teckla.

The colors he is wearing are also the same as for House Teckla.

>Other than the fact that the taltos beasts are called by the same
>name as Vlad's surname, I don't see any conection here.  Since the
>beast draws power seemingly from the river, taltos animals might be
>some kind of Riverine, but that would be stretching things.

"Taltos," roughly translated, means "Hungarian."

David Messer
dave@Lynx.MN.Org
Lynx Data Systems
...!meccts!viper!dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  1 Dec 87  13:25:16 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: 2001, 2010

I recently heard that Arthur C. Clarke has come out with 2068.
Anybody know more about this?

andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 87 16:54:51 PST
From: leavitt%hpscad.DEC@decwrl.dec.com (Eric Leavitt)
Subject: Spinning in 2010

jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith) asks:
>In 2001 the Discovery's centrifuge is described as being located
>along the equator of the sphere at the front of the ship, making it
>horizontal.  In 2010 the derelict Discovery is tumbling
>end-over-end about its midpoint, due to the transference of angular
>momentum from the once-spinning centrifuge which was slowed to a
>stop by friction.  Clarke is no slouch at physics, but I am, so
>correct me if I'm wrong here: if the ship were tumbling
>end-over-end wouldn't that imply that the centrifuge was vertical
>within the sphere (went from pole to pole), and if the ship's
>tumbling was due to the slowing of the centrifuge wouldn't it be
>rotating about the center of the sphere rather than the ship's
>midpoint (near the AE-35 unit)?  I can't believe that Clarke would
>take the time to imagine the tumbling ship and its cause, and still
>get it wrong.  What's going on here?

I'm not sure which orientations you mean by "vertical" or
"horizontal".  Remember that there is no "down" to judge these by in
space.  There are 2 significantly different orientations possible
here.  Either the axis of the centrifuge runs along the long axis of
the ship, or it is perpendicular to it.  If it is perpendicular to
it, then I don't know how you would define whether it is vertical or
horizontal.  In other words, the difference between "end over end"
and "sideways" is only which side you are looking at it from.

Inertial (unaccelerated) objects can only spin about their center of
mass.  The total angular momentum of the Discovery will be
conserved, but it will be transferred from the centrifuge to the
entire ship.  There is a sense here too, in which this is just a
matter of perspective.  However, any frame of reference which has
the Discovery spinning about some point other than its center of
mass will not be an inertial frame of reference.

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 23:40:59 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu
Subject: M. John Harrison

What can anyone out there tell me about M. John Harrison? I have
only one of his books, purhcased at a used paperback exchange. No
other titles are listed in the book, but it is obviously part of
some sort of "dying earth" cycle. He comes across as a neat
combination of Michael Moorcock and Jack Vance, and I would like to
know more, primarily in the form of a bibliography. Can anyone help?

Michael Collier
University of New Mexico Computing Center
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
{ihnp4!lanl|cmcl2!beta}!unm-la!unmvax!charon!collier

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 87 09:15:03 GMT
From: gatech!tektronix!reed!soren@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: M. John Harrison

Here's what I know:

   The Pastel City (early 70's).
   A Storm of Wings (early 80's).
   The Floating Gods (1984?).
   Viriconium Knights (1984).

The stories are essentially unconnected.

*The Pastel City* is a very good sword and sorcery fantasy in the
idiom of Vance and Moorcock--not real original, or anything, but
very nice.

*Viriconium Knights* is a collection of short stories, all rather
odd, in a British, New Worldsy, decadent sort of way--rather
surreal, but all well written.

I haven't read the other two.  *The Floating Gods* is, as I
understand it, the expansion of "In Viriconium", a novella from
*Viriconium Knights*.  I believe it (the novel) was published in
Britain under the title *In Viriconium*.

Soren F. Petersen
tektronix!reed!soren

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 87 12:13 EST
From: Johanna Rothman <JR@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re:Child of Fortune
To: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu

From: PAAAAAR%CALSTATE.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry)  asks:
>>Has anybody else read Spinrad's Child of Fortune?
>Yes but judging by the silence about this book nobody else has.
>This is a little sad because it has a well imagined future world
>complete with culture, language, characters and mythology...
>Briefly it disturbed me a little, shocked me, made laugh a little,
>and also touched me a bit too.
>
>I've read The Void Captain's Tale and recommend it.

Well, I read Child of Fortune, and wasn't particularly excited about
it.  I can't decide if I wasn't excited because of the writing or
because of the plot.  I'm a bit tired of self-indulgent children.
This book didn't touch me at all.  I didn't think the culture,
language or characters were well imagined; I thought they all came
from a drug-induced dream.  I found it difficult to read the entire
way through.

I read the Void Captain's Tale, and I liked it better than Child of
Fortune, but not as much as the book about Pacifica.  There's
another book I think he wrote, about post-nuclear-holocaust western
USA, that I thought was good.  (Sorry, the titles have all vanished
from my mind today.)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 87 03:11:35 GMT
From: gatech!codas!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Child of Fortune

PAAAAAR@calstate.BITNET writes:
>aterry@TEKNOWLEDGE-VAXC.ARPA (Allan Terry)  asks:
>>Has anybody else read Spinrad's Child of Fortune?
>Yes but judging by the silence about this book nobody else has.
>This is a little sad because it has a well imagined future world
>complete with culture, language, characters and mythology...
>Briefly it disturbed me a little, shocked me, made laugh a little,
>and also touched me a bit too.

Hmm. What I thought most, as I plowed through the book, was that
Norman Spinrad ought to look at himself before saying nasty things
about Orson Scott Card (who I think is one of today's best SF
writers, although Speaker for the Dead got on my nerves because it
was so pedantic -- read "Unaccompanied Sonata" for an example of
Card at his best).

The only part of it that grabbed my attention was the Journey on the
Veldt and the immediate aftermath. The rest simply didn't appeal to
me (maybe because I'm too young to remember the 60's?). I especially
dislike when Spinrad goes crazy with his phrase book... I knew
enough French and Spanglish to get through some, and could pretty
well guess the rest, but still, an irritating distraction from the
general "flow" of things. I guess he felt like proving that he was
an "intellectual" writer (as vs. Card?!). Bah.

Eric Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 20:10:07 GMT
From: linda@hpldola.hp.com (Linda Kinsel)
Subject: Re: 'The Ugly Little Boy' (was Re: A story request)

>> "The Ugly Little Boy" -- I've wanted to see this one turned
>> into a movie (for TV?) or some such since my first reading.
> There's an anthology film titled THREE TALES DARK AND DANGEROUS,
> made by the Learning Corporation of America in 1976, and guess
> what one of the three tales is?  And a good adaptation it was.
>
> Before anyone asks, the other two adaptations are D.H. Lawrence's
> "The Rocking-Horse Winner" and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "Silver
> Blaze".

Amazing!  "The Ugly Little Boy" and "The Rocking Horse Winner" are
two of my very favorite short stories.  I'll definitely watch for
the movie.

I do have a question about "The Rocking Horse Winner" that perhaps
someone out there in net-land can help me with.  If I remember
correctly, D.H. Lawrence had a brother that was also a writer.  I'm
sorry, but I don't remember the brother's name.  He wrote a short
story called "The Rat-Catcher's Daughter" and a number of short
stories.  And I thought he also wrote "The Rocking Horse Winner,"
but that the credit is often given erroneously to his more famous
brother for that one.  Does anyone know the correct story?  Thanks
in advance.

Linda Kinsel
Electronic Design Division, Colorado Springs
Hewlett Packard
UUCP:  hplabs!hpfcdc!hpldola!linda
ARPA:  linda@hpldola.HP.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  2-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #521
Date:  2 Dec 87 0955-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #521
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  2 Dec 87 0955-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #521
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 2 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 521

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (12 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 15:50:46 GMT
From: esunix!lglass@RUTGERS.EDU (Laura Glass)
Subject: Re: Picard and Crusher romantically involved ?

>> I was speculating that perhaps Picard and Crusher had had a fling
>> a few years back ... and that Wesley is the result ...
>
> Picard and Crusher romanticaly involved?  Not likely.  In the
> first episode it was mentioned that the doctor's husband had
> served alongside of Picard until her husband died in some
> unmentioned horrible way.

Picard was apparently a close friend of the family's and when
Crusher's husband died, Picard was the one who brought the body back
to her.  I think that's the way it went.  Therefore Crusher feels
very grateful to Picard, and probably in some sense very close to
him since he was with her husband when he died.

Laura Glass
Evans and Sutherland Comp. Corp.
Salt Lake City, Utah
{decvax, ihnp4}!decwrl!esunix!lglass

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 87 18:17:37 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Wimpy Aliens on ST:TNG

>     I have been greatly disappointed lately that STTNG has
>overlooked the best alien race that they ever encountered, the
>Romulans (aka Rihansu). Direct relatives to the Vulcans, I would
>think that they would have made a logical ally for the Federation
>to have; one more logical than even the Klingons who we are coming
>to see as friends through Worf. I have looked high and low for a
>reason for this lack, and have found nada. Can ANYONE help, and is
>there a place that we can write to to complain and add our $0.05
>worth? Please reply. My user name is RJ00@Lehigh and I'm very
>prompt about replying to mail.

Never mind the Romulans, where are the Vulcans?  Best alien race
this side of !Tangland, provided they stay out of Fortune Cookie
mode.  Are Nimoy and Alley the only actors in the universe who can
arch an eyebrow dryly?  A cutsie robot Pinnochio is no substitute.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 87 04:40:35 GMT
From: harvard!linus!watmath!looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - The Battle {SF-Lovers V12 #509}

A024012@rutvm1 (Ross Patterson) writes:
>>"Mitchel Ludwig" <MFL1%LEHIGH.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> writes:
>>whoever originally posted the message concerning the Ferrengi
>>intelligence, congrats on seeing something in the race that I
>>missed.
>
>    WhoEver == Brad Templeton <brad@looking.uucp>.  And he seems to
>be closer to the truth than the "Ferrengi == Monkeys" croud.

Whoever was me, and sorry to tell you folks, I was joking.  The
Ferrengi in the first episode were silly monkeys and badly scripted.
You missed nothing.  The Ferrengi in the next episode (I'm assuming
not done by the same writer) showed more depth, and that's good.

In fact, at this juncture I will make a serious comment about their
improved depth.  Many people on the net seem to feel that the
Ferrengi are "backward" in their use of profit as a motivation.
People seem to forget that the most "advanced" nations on Earth have
this as the motivation behind most behaviour.  In particular when
the word profit is used in its wider sense, (in one's self interest)
as I suspect the Ferrengi use it.

If Captain Picard were to recover a derelict spaceship, and give it
away in an elaborate revenge plot using illegal mind control
devices, he too might be relieved of command for unprofitable (i.e.
stupid) activities.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 87 07:31:19 GMT
From: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder@RUTGERS.EDU (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Transwarp Drive

According to a speaker at a science fiction convention I attended
(DreamCon 2, Everett Washington) recently, who has a copy of the
writer's guide for STTNG, the current warp drive operates by a fifth
power rule (i.e. "warp n" = n to the fifth power times the speed of
light).  The old series warp drive had a third power rule, and the
Excelsior 'Transwarp' had a fourth power rule drive.

Now, as for a pseudo-technical explanation of the warp drive, some
of you are probably familiar with the current physics theory that
invokes higher dimensions (ten in total) to explain some results The
spatial dimensions other than the three we are used to are
'compactified', or curled up to a Planck length or so in extent
(10exp-33 meters).  In other words, everything is ten dimensional,
but very thin in most of the dimensions.  Now, we can hypothesize
that what a warp drive does is locally curl up the normal three
dimensions (warp them), while simultaneously uncurling the other
dimensions, maintaining the volume product of all ten dimensions
at a constant (there has to be a conservation law or it wouldn't be
physics - call this conservation of n-dimensional volume).

The three normal spatial dimensions, being curled up, are traversed
faster then light.  The advancements in warp technology involve
increasing the number of compactified dimensions that are being
uncurled.  Since the volume product remains the same, the normal
space dimensions are shrunk further, so you seem to go faster.

How about the time travel effect?  Well, so far I have neglected
time as a dimension.  Really, the universe is 11-dimensional.
Whilst traveling at high warp factors, one has a velocity vector in
11-dimensional space.  At zero speed, we all share a velocity of c
in the timelike direction.  A spatial velocity tilts the vector in
the direction of the movement, but still with the timelike
component.  Now in the 11-dimensional case, the vector is still
there, with it's timelike component, but the normal space dimensions
are shrunk, so the vector acts like it has a huge space component.
The gravity well of a star or black hole bends normal spacetime
vectors in the space direction (away from timelike direction).  With
the space dimensions shrunk as in warp drive, the vector change in
direction amounts to a reversal or worse in the time dimension (if
you get rotated into one of the compactified dimensions, you get
dead.)

While I am 'explaining' technoTrek, I hit upon a reason for those
lights passing by the view out the windows and on the main viewing
screen at apparently ridiculous warp numbers.  The misconception is
that those are stars you are seeing go by.  What they actually are
is comet nucleii, which exist by the trillion around each star, and
probably evenly scattered across the Galaxy.  They are illuminated
by a sensor so the ship can avoid flying into one at warp 8.
Whether they are actually lit up, or whether that is a display
artifact (like blips on a radar screen), is still up in the air.
Since comet nucleii are 10,000 times closer together than stars, the
apparent speed as they go by makes sense.

Dani Eder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 87  14:40:09 EST
From: g%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (b)
Subject: STTNG: Hide and Q

I forgot to mention Riker's gifts to the bridge crew. When Dr.
Crusher & Wesley started leaving the bridge I thought that Riker was
going to bring back their husband/father. I don't understand why
Worf didn't accept the Klingon woman, since in the episode JUSTICE
he told Riker he'd need a Klingon woman for sex since human women
were too fragile. And why should Data want to be human? He has
mostly advantages the way he is now. In the episode THE NAKED NOW
when LaForge took off his visor and asked Yar to help him see, Troi
said it was unusual because he had never expressed a desire for
normal vision before. And isn't it interesting that LaForge then
chose Yar, and now complemented her on her beauty?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 87  14:25:57 EST
From: g%UMASS.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu (b)
Subject: STTNG: Hide and Q

My favorite part of this episode is that they finally got rid of
that nerd Q. Perhaps Q means quintessential or quintessance, as Q
said he/they exist in the limitless dimensions of his/their own
galaxy, the Q continuum?  I didn't like the fact mentioned that
humans defeated the Klingons in the war, I had hoped that they would
have made peace. Remember the Klingon ambassador in Star Trek IV? He
said "There shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" I thought that
when Kirk died, the Klingons would have said ,"OK, Kirk died, we can
be friends now." And so the reason Q is so interested in humans is
because of fear, the Q are afraid of humans surpassing evem them in
developement. Q's offer to William Riker seemed a lot like the
Biblical temptation to me. Once again, we see how super- advanced
alien beings lose some of their feelings and must rely on "savage"
races to remember again. Probably the most powerful line in the
episode was said by Picard "What is your fondness for costumes, Q?
Have you no identity of your own?"

andy

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 87 21:14:07 GMT
From: cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu
Subject: NCC (was Re: STTNG: The Battle)

BARBANIS@cs.umass.EDU ("George Barbanis") writes:
>Re NCC: In ST IV(tVH), we see that the Excelsior's number is
>NCX-something (I'm not sure about that, but it definitely wasn't
>NCC).  I'd say that they have no special meaning other than serial
>numbers (Occam's razor and all that stuff).  Anbd by the way: In a
>STTNG episode (cant remember which), they gather in some conference
>room, where they have on display a shuttlecraft replica.  Now this
>replica has NCC-1701 (NOT NCC-1701D) on it.  Maybe it's the old
>enterprise shuttle?

Re: the Excelsior (What a bucket of bolts!)

As I remember, she had the prefix NX-2000.  What the 'NX' probably
stands for is 'Naval Experimental'.  This is different from 'NCC'
which I have heard stands for 'Naval Construction Contract'.

Re: Shuttlecraft in 'Lonely Among Us'

I believe that that was a goof.  The shuttle was a STTOS design.  If
she were the _Gallileo_ (From 'The Gallileo Seven'), the designation
would have read 'NCC 1701/7'.

Taki Kogoma
cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu
hi!charon!cs2551ai@hc.dspo.gov
{ames,gatech,ucbvax}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!charon!cs2551ai

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 87 17:41 CDT
From: <DDC4058%TAMSTAR.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu> (Darian)
Subject: Star Trek - Prime Directive

Concerning the Prime Directive...

     In the old S.T., the Prime Directive prohibited any outside
influence on a primitive, "normally" developing people.  It was
Kirk's interpretation of "normal" that enabled him to apparently
ignore the directive so many times.  I believe Spock asked Kirk to
explain his actions with regards to the P.D. on several occasions
and Kirk pointed to the abnormality of the society for
justification.  I guess Star Fleet concurred with Kirk's judgement
because he was always back for the next show.  Some of the
circumstances in which the P.D. was violated are:

1) where the P.D. had already been violated by the Klingons or
   a member of Star Fleet (or whoever)
2) where the evolution of the people was stagnating i.e. the people
   were being ruled by (a) machine(s)
3) the race in question was nearly equal to or beyond the Federation
   technologically

One may assume that if a planet is a member of the Federation then
the P.D. is modified to incorporate Federation laws and punishments
that govern the planet.  As I remember Kirk's plea to a town
council, these laws are very liberal and concentrate on individual
rights.

At least Star Trek was reasonably consistent.  In ST:TNG they have
trouble keeping it consistent for even one show, but it is getting
better.

Darian Carr

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 15:46:25 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: Transwarp Drive

eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) writes:
>According to a speaker at a science fiction convention I attended
>(DreamCon 2, Everett Washington) recently, who has a copy of the
>writer's guide for STTNG, the current warp drive operates by a
>fifth power rule (i.e. "warp n" = n to the fifth power times the
>speed of light).  The old series warp drive had a third power rule,
>and the Excelsior 'Transwarp' had a fourth power rule drive.

Boy, Dani...if that's really in the current Writers' Guide (it's not
in mine) Gene's been reading my letters again.  I ought to post
those letters one of these days...

The first writers' guide floating around merely said warp 6 was one
lightyear per hour.  With a slight fudge factor, that gave me the
wf^5 rule.

>While I am 'explaining' technoTrek, I hit upon a reason for those
>lights passing by the view out the windows and on the main viewing
>screen at apparently ridiculous warp numbers.  The misconception is
>that those are stars you are seeing go by.  What they actually are
>is comet nucleii, which exist by the trillion around each star, and
>probably evenly scattered across the Galaxy.  They are illuminated
>by a sensor so the ship can avoid flying into one at warp 8.
>Whether they are actually lit up, or whether that is a display
>artifact (like blips on a radar screen), is still up in the air.
>Since comet nucleii are 10,000 times closer together than stars,
>the apparent speed as they go by makes sense.

Finally, finally. Thank you!!!!  I've been looking for an excuse for
that for 20 years now.  Particularly when one passes between you and
the Enterprise and it still looks like a point.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Drive
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290 (h)
(703)749-2315 (w)
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 87 04:34:09 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: STTNG: The Battle

BARBANIS@cs.umass.EDU ("George Barbanis") writes:
>Quoth the Captain: "Don't they teach you about tractor beam
>conservation?"  Well, back in the old days, they used to
>call it conservation of momentum.  But maybe it's the headache.

I think he means "conservation of the energy expended in keeping the
tractor beam on" not "conservation of momentum will keep the other
ship alongside us even with the beam off."

I thought that this little piece of dialogue was particularly
insulting to the audience, however. Not because of any
misinterpretations, but because any SF buff or anyone who has
remotely heard Newton's Laws would be sitting there saying to
themselves (as I was), "Why don't they turn the tractor beam off?
The ship will stay with them and they'll save energy!" even before
Picard pointed this out.

Of course, the absolute only reason they did that (i.e. left it on
until Picard told them to shut it off) was to use this little quote
as an extremely cheap and intelligence insulting foreshadowing of
Picard taking the ship away. I mean, the second he said, "Turn off
the tractor beam," I said, "He's going to try to steal the ship!"
Did this bother anyone else?

..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 1 December 1987, 12:28:14 EST
From: Brent Hailpern <BTH@ibm.com>
Subject: Star Trek - TNG

If I heard right, the USS Stargazer was a Constellation Class ship
(as was the original Enterprise - right?).  But unlike the original
Enterprise, the Stargazer had 4 engines/pods.  Did I hear wrong, or
is there a more general definition of class?  (Or does it depend on
which set is used for the bridge shots?)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 87 14:03:15 EST
From: Atul Butte <ST602397%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

It was mentioned that NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract. I
tend to disagree.  I can't figure out what the N stands for, but I
think CC stands for Constitution Class.  Remember, the Excelsior is
NX.

I remember reading that USS stands for United Space Ship.

I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
ever see a Klingon female?

A minor nitpick: In "The Battle", the Enterprise is "attacked" by
the Star Gazer.  What ever happened to prefix codes (Star Trek 2)?

Atul Butte
Brown University
ST602397@BROWNVM.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #522
Date:  7 Dec 87 0855-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #522
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Dec 87 0855-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #522
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 522

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 16:12:03 GMT
From: jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner)
Subject: Re: STTNG: Hide and Q

g@umass.BITNET (b) writes:
>I forgot to mention Riker's gifts to the bridge crew. When Dr.
>Crusher & Wesley started leaving the bridge I thought that Riker
>was going to bring back their husband/father. I don't understand
>why Worf didn't accept the Klingon woman, since in the episode
>JUSTICE he told Riker he'd need a Klingon woman for sex since human
>women were too fragile. And why should Data want to be human? He
>has mostly advantages the way he is now. In the episode THE NAKED
>NOW when LaForge took off his visor and asked Yar to help him see,
>Troi said it was unusual because he had never expressed a desire
>for normal vision before. And isn't it interesting that LaForge
>then choose Yar, and now complemented her on her beauty?

The Enterprise crew was intelligent enough to see through the
obvious ploy Picard was using.  OBVIOUSLY, they were all supposed to
turn down the "gifts".  Anyone with an ounce of familiarity with the
situation could see that was the way to get rid of Q.  Picard
assumed they would all do the correct thing, no matter how tempting
the temptations were, and like heroes, the crew performed as
expected.  Even Wesley (somewhat slow to figure things out)
eventually realized he was expected to turn down the gift and did
so.

No surprise in any of this -- just that another alien was
sufficiently unfamiliar with human nature to realize the strength of
our perverseness.  If we are GIVEN a life of ease, we reject it; if
we think we've earned a life of ease, we'll hang on.

Jim Gardner
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 87 09:01:31 EST
From: mullen@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Star Trek - The Prime Directive

   I've always been uncomfortable with the concept that a law is the
final word on a subject or the behavior in a society. To me a law is
a guideline to give an individual a starting point on how to guide
his actions or behavior.  Granted most laws, on the surface, are
pretty inflexible but that's the way they should be, provided that
the system can support contrary rulings on special cases. I think
Star Fleet would provide the apparatus that when a Star Fleet
officer bends or breaks a directive (including the Prime Directive)
he would be judged on the merits of that individual case. In fact,
as in the case where Kirk would not allow his crew to be killed off
because a computer deemed them casualties in a local war, can you
imagine Star Fleet's reaction if he had allowed part or all of his
crew (including himself) to be dispossed of?

   Even laws in other countries are generally compared to our own
and judged on those merits.  Case in point would be the taking of
the hostages in Iran.  By their laws (made at the time to be
convenient) our people were taken legally. Obviously, we didn't
agree so we attempted to take them back (unfortunately
unsuccessfully). If the plan had worked we would broken several
Iranian laws and probably killed several of their people. However,
by our standards that would have been right and proper.

   As much as I would like to see the character of Wesley removed
from the show, one way or another, I can't imagine Captain Picard
staying a Captain very long if he had allowed Wes to be done in.

   On another subject, they made so much noise at the beginning of
ST-TNG about families going along why haven't we seen some stories
or even little bitty sidelines with some of the variety that is on
board?  Even shots in the passageways seldom have anyone but the
stars. Is everyone in cold storage and only brought out when needed?
By now there should have been a few babies born, one or two
marriages, and maybe a divorce or two. (Can the captain of a star
ship grant divorces as well as marriages. Just a thought.)

Paul Mullen
SRI International
Ft. Bragg Field Office
Ft. Bragg, N.C.

------------------------------

From: uunet!netxcom!rwhite@RUTGERS.EDU (Royal White)
Subject: Re: STTNG: Hide and Q
Date: 1 Dec 87 18:28:52 GMT

g@umass.BITNET (b) writes:
>I forgot to mention Riker's gifts to the bridge crew. When Dr.
>Crusher & Wesley started leaving the bridge I thought that Riker
>was going to bring back their husband/father.

Same here.

>I don't understand why Worf didn't accept the Klingon woman, since
>in the episode JUSTICE he told Riker he'd need a Klingon woman for
>sex since human women were too fragile.

Perhaps his natural VIOLENT Klingon nature would have been released.
Up til then he's been pretty restrained.

>And why should Data want to be human? He has mostly advantages the
>way he is now.

In the first episode (Farpoint) Data states that he would give up
all his advantages to be human.

>And isn't it interesting that LaForge then choose Yar, and now
>complemented her on her beauty?

Because Troi wasn't there to be complemented. :-)

Royal White Jr.
uunet!netxcom!rwhite
work: 703-749-2384

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 06:01:11 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (The Chameleon)
Subject: Re: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
>A minor nitpick: In "The Battle", the Enterprise is "attacked" by the
>Star Gazer.  What ever happened to prefix codes (Star Trek 2)?

Maybe the Federation decided that having a radio signal which can
control their ships remotely and do nasty things like make them drop
their shields was _not_ such a good idea after Kirk showed them what
it could do.  After all, consider the Ferrengi looking through the
Stargazer before delivering it to Picard.  They find this neat file
in the computer which contains all the prefix codes of every
Federation vessel in the Fleet (or at least those in service nine
years or more).  They then take control of Starfleet and sell the
ships to the highest bidder...

The idea of prefix codes seemed pretty dumb in ST2, maybe the
Federation (or GR) had an attack of intelligence.

The real question is this:
Picard beams on board the Stargazer.  The Ferrengi captain says
"Shields up."  gloats a while, then beams out _without lowering the
shields_.  Picard tries to attack the Enterprise, says "Shields up"
again.  Riker convinces him to come to his senses, and then they
beam him back to the Enterprise.  Again, this is without lowering
the shields.  Why are the shields raised twice and never lowered,
yet this does not interfere with the transporters except where the
plot calls for it?

Also, if they can make voice-activated computers that can do
everything to control the Stargazer, WHY DO THEY NEED BRIDGE CREW?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 04:51:16 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: Re: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
> I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
> ever see a Klingon female?

Depends on whether you want to count the movies and ST:TNG in the
same continuum (oh no, not the DC Comics multiple-universe disease!
Forget I even mentioned the idea!)...  Since you ask about Prefix
Codes from ST/2, in relation to ST:TNG, one assumes you DO count
everything together.  In that case, then, I believe we saw a Klingon
female in ST/III, right at the beginning: she transmits the Genesis
data to the Klingon ship later to be captured by Kirk & Co. -- and
is then blown up with her chartered ship to preserve the secrecy of
the exchange.  Remember now?

C.C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 87 10:49:31 est
From: (Smith, Stephen)" <SMITH%DICKINSN.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: Star Trek

Commander Riker should be shot (phasered). He had the powers of the
Q, right?  So what is the first thing he does with them? HE SAVES
WESLEY'S LIFE!

He could have just thrown up the fence and taken everyone except
Wesley up to the Enterprise. Then he could have taken a good bit of
time taking care of Worf's wound (come on, Worf was a Klingon. He
probably had some internal damage from having a spear shoved through
him. Is Riker, who has just gained the powers of the Q, supposed to
just wave his hands and heal Worf, including mending his internal
(KLINGON) organs?) Then he should have said, "Hey, whoops, we left
Wesley `down' there!" Everyone would then have said, "Well, that
wasn't very smart, Commander Riker. Why don't you go back and get
him and heal him?" At that point, Riker would have gone back and to
his extreme apparent sorrow and hidden delight, he would have
discovered that Wes was dead, and he would have been very sorrowful,
and everyone would be very sad without showing any external signs of
emotion (no crying on the bridge!), and they would have had a
funeral and shot Wesley out to a Genesis Planet so they could bring
him back a few episodes later. At least he'd be out of our hair for
a little while.

And THEN, after he decided to save Wesley, and gone through the
necessary "oh boy I don't think I should use the powers of the Q on
a dead little girl," and after he turned Wes into an adult, he
should have LEFT HIM as an adult. This would have made Wesley old
enough that they could send him off to Starfleet Academy without
worrying about Kirk's record. Or they could have left him on the
program as an adult, which would have kept the interest of the 5-15
group (which is the whole reason for the existence of Wes in the
first place) and which actually might prove interesting...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 87 11:13:33 EST
From: Nici Gorski <ngorski@col.bbn.com>
Subject: ST:TNG

In the most recent episode where everyone's favorite Q, returns, I
have begun to wonder if we don't have another spoiled child on our
hands.  In an old episode of ST:TO, Kirk was troubled by an
oversized child with the mentality of Napoleon.  Once again in this
episode, we have the French revolution of sorts, but with Pig People
and muskets that shot lasers.  I actually liked this episode due to
the fact that the characters seem to be getting stronger and showing
more of their individualism.  The only part that disheartened me was
that Riker took it upon himself to save that sniveling little runt
Wesley.  What a wonderful show it would have been if he had
disappeared for good.  Other than Wesley though, his mother really
needs some work in the Doctor Dept., as well as the character dept.
I just can't see her as a Federation Commander let alone a mother.
To bad the planet didn't have another disaster just as she started
to take care of the injured.

I'm glad to know that I am not the only person who absolutely cannot
stand Wesley nor his mother.  Now all we need is for that old
romance (Yes, we all know that there was an affair stuck in there
somewhere), between Pickard and What's her name to start up again.
Then Wesley will be able to do no wrong.  Lord help us all!!!!!

Enough of him.  I really like the way that Q came back, but I wish
that he would stop with this bit of "The Human race is nothing but
savages" stuff.  After one look at Worf with that female from his
memories, I don't think that Q really has any place to call Humans
savages.  That was getting just a little too close to kinky for my
taste.  Let's see more of the classical types of ideas and less of
this "savagery" junk.  With the universe being a vast as it is,
there must be at least 20 or 30 more worlds to go and help with out
concentrating on just the Enterprise.

Nicolette Gorski,
BBN Communications Corporation.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 14:29:41 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!crusader@RUTGERS.EDU (Erick L. King)
Subject: Re: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
> It was mentioned that NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract.
> I tend to disagree.  I can't figure out what the N stands for, but
> I think CC stands for Constitution Class.  Remember, the Excelsior
> is NX.

   Nope, NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract, it couldn't
stand for Constitution class because then the new Enterprise, a
Galaxy class ship, would be NGC.  NX stands for Naval eXperimental.

> I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
> ever see a Klingon female?

   You are. :-) We see the Klingon Valkris in the beginning of
STIII:TSFS

> A minor nitpick: In "The Battle", the Enterprise is "attacked" by
> the Star Gazer.  What ever happened to prefix codes (Star Trek 2)?

   Perhaps they weren't used because of many reasons.  Riker is not
Kirk.  Stargazer's Computers had been tampered with. (How else would
Picard's log be changed as well as Bok's being able to order
Stargazer to raise her shields.)  Data didn't think of it. :-) And
finally, it would've taken the suspense out of the plot. :-)

Erick L. King
8408 N. Glacier Dr.
Muncie In. 47303
UUCP: crusader@bsu-cs.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 87 19:31:03 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: USS, ISS,  We all SS

es2551ai@charon.unm.edu writes:
>What I have found in _The Making of Star Trek_ is that USS
>designates 'United Space Ship'.  However, I think that the
>designation of 'FS' (Federation Starship) makes much more sense.
>(UFPS; 'United Federation of Planets Starship' is too long).  But
>that's just my humble opinion.

I remember that in early episodes Kirk reported not to UFP Star
Fleet Command, but the United Earth Space Probe Authority (UESPA).
(You'll recall that time travel episode where the U.S. Air Force
Captain is startled by the reference to "United Earth".  There was
also "Charlie X" where Kirk asks "Yoo-Spaw Headquarters" to search
for Charlie's relatives.  Actually, I've just this very moment come
up with a theory that completely explains USS.  (No one will like it
because it's a Hollywood, not an SF, explanation.)  Assume the
following history:

1.  Roddenbery is planning a new TV series called "Star Trek."  His
space voyagers are citizens of the United States of Earth (I've read
that term in other SF from the 60s), hence the USS in the ships'
names.

2.  The bosses at Desilu Studios raise a stink: "United States of
Earth" implies that in the future the current U.S. of A. has annexed
the entire planet, not a thought palatable to foreign audiences.
But by this time, Roddenberry's special effects people have already
shot many of the space scenes, and he hasn't the budget to repaint
the models and shoot them again.  So he decrees that USS stands not
for "United States Ship" but "United Space Ship" and that our heroes
work for the "United Earth Space Probe Authority".  (You'll note
that in early episodes Spock is the only nonhuman working for
UESPA.)

3.  Someone else objects to "United Earth", because of the
implication that in the future the United States will give up its
sovereignty to an international body.  To avoid the
internationalist/birchite controversy, Roddenbery does away with the
international federation and replaces it with an interstellar one.
"United Federation of Planets" is chosen because it goes with the
USS logo, and the word "Federation" negates any political
connotations that might disturb 20th century TV viewers.  (Note that
"United Federation" is a redundancy, like "Independent Autonomy" or
"Sticky Glue".)

Isn't TV fun?

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 04:23:58 GMT
From: sdcsvax!jack!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
> A minor nitpick: In "The Battle", the Enterprise is "attacked" by
> the Star Gazer.  What ever happened to prefix codes (Star Trek 2)?

Riker isn't smart enough to think of it and no one asked Data to
come up with the idea.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!man,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
man!sdeggo!dave@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #523
Date:  7 Dec 87 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #523
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Dec 87 0926-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #523
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 523

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anderson & Brust & Bunch (3 msgs) &
                    Ford & Haldeman & M. John Harrison (2 msgs) &
                    May (2 msgs) & Merrill & Panshin &
                    Piper (2 msgs) & Russo & Spinrad & Wolfe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 87 08:51:02 EST
From: "Michael R. Margerum" <DCHPC%UOTTAWA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Favorite Books (*** SPOILERS ***)

Walter Hunt writes:
>    Anderson, Poul.  THE BROKEN SWORD.  (1954) A view of the
> "hidden world" of Albion, enchanted Britain.  Anderson's first or
> second novel (OK, jayembee, did he write "Vault of the Ages"
> first?  I don't remember).  A less traditional fantasy with elves
> that definitely *aren't* Tolkien's.

I was not aware that this was an obscure book. If so, it is a shame.
I picked it up several years ago after I had heard that it was one
of the inspirations for Michael Moorcock's Elric series. This seemed
plausible to me after reading the the book, since the main character
(Skaflok) bears a cursed supernatural sword which is fated to slay
him eventually. There are other parallels as well. Skaflok is in
love with his sister. Valgard the changeling destroys his "family".
Can anybody confirm if this book was indeed an inspiration for the
Elric series? I am not sure, but I believe I read this in something
Moorcock himself wrote.

I quite enjoyed this dark and tragic books. The elves in here
certainly are not quite "Tolkien" elves, but I found some
similarities. Both are from a magical old world declining in the
face of a new age. The people of the new age distrust and fear the
elves, if they believe in them at all.

The copy I have is a Del Rey Book, copyright 1971. It has been
somewhat changed from the original 1954 edition, as explained by
Anderson in the Foreword.

Mike
DCHPC@UOTTAWA.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1987  12:34 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: Brokedown Palace and Jhereg

Don't forget also that in Teckla, Vlad's grandfather refers to
Draegara as Faerie and to the Draegarans as Elves.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 12:32:23 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60aC)
Subject: Bunch

Allan Terry writes:
>You know, this is the first time I have run into somebody who had
>even heard of Bunch.

There are two short stories in _Dangerous Visions_ by David Bunch:
"Incident in Moderan" and "The Escaping".  These are the only two
stories I've ever seen by him.  Evidently he has written other
stories in Moderan; maybe someday they'll be collected.  "The
Escaping" is not a Moderan story.

Someone else thought that Bunch had enlisted in the Air Force.  Not
true.  According to the afterword, Bunch is a civilian employee of
the Air Force and only writes in his spare time.

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 18:20:30 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Bunch

From:   tekla!dant      (Dan Tilque)
> ..."Incident in Moderan" and "The Escaping"....are the only two
> stories I've ever seen by [Bunch].  Evidently he has written other
> stories in Moderan; maybe someday they'll be collected.

They were.

MODERAN, Avon Books, 1971, paperback.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 08:35:57 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: David R. Bunch

Just yesterday, I found a copy of the fourth issue of the late,
lamented "Last Wave", for my money the best science fiction magazine
ever produced.  The date is Autumn 1984, and there is a new story by
David R. Bunch called "From the Fishbowl".  I haven't had a chance
to read it yet, but a quick scan shows some of the same narrative
techniques that were used in the Moderan stories.

So apparently, he didn't stop writing SF in the 1960's; he is just
not very prolific.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 21:47:51 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Humorous SF

ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.UK writes:
>Am I the only one to have found "How Much for Just the Planet"
>disappointing?

I read it after the discussion on the net and found it only mildly
humorous.  Perhaps it helps to be a dedicated Trek fan and to have
read some of the other Trek books...

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 17:12:00 EST
From: "NEIL OTTENSTEIN" <otten@cincom.umd.edu>
Subject: Joe Haldeman Reading

I just came back from the Joe Haldeman reading at UMCP.  It was lots
of fun.  He does a very good job talking about his work and
background things that he is putting in his novel.  He read from the
novel that he is working on right now - THE LONG HABIT OF LIVING.
It might be out in the stores in a year if everything goes smoothly.
The basic concept behind it is that there is a technique (I believe
it is) called the Stowman Process which can rejuvenate you for about
10 years.  You need about $1 million (or so) to be considered. You
have to give up all your worldly goods for the process.  Thus you
will have to start from scratch in order to be able to get another
10 years. Apparently if you don't get rejuvenated you get a Dorian
Gray process done on you.  The novel centers on two "immortals"
(people who have been periodically rejuved).  There seem to be lots
of bits about this future world thrown in.  The thing which seems to
start the action rolling is that some of the "immortals" are being
killed off...  It looks like a fun book from what he has read. I am
looking forward to it.

Neil A. Ottenstein
OTTEN@CINCOM.UMD.EDU
OTTEN@UMCINCOM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 03:16:57 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: M. John Harrison

soren@reed.UUCP writes:

>The Pastel City (early 70's).
>A Storm of Wings (early 80's).
>The Floating Gods (1984?).
>Viriconium Knights (1984).

   Don't forget his _Centauri Device_ (or is it _Alpha Centauri
Device_ ?)  This is M. John Harrison's venture into hard s.f.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 06:05:39 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: M. John Harrison

soren@reed.UUCP writes:
>The Pastel City (early 70's).
>A Storm of Wings (early 80's).
>The Floating Gods (1984?).
>Viriconium Knights (1984).
>
>The stories are essentially unconnected.

Actually, _A Storm of Wings_ is a sequel to _The Pastel City_
although not a very direct one, if I recall correctly.  It has a
different feel than TPC and I didn't like it as much.

>*The Pastel City* is a very good sword and sorcery fantasy in the
>idiom of Vance and Moorcock--not real original, or anything, but
>very nice.

I agree.  He also wrote a book called _The Centuari Device_ which is
set in a very grim and gritty future world.  I found it rather
depressing and didn't care for it.

William H. Ansley
uucp: ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 14:12:27 GMT
From: mimsy!aplcen!jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan Faidley)
Subject: Julian May

A friend of mine and myself are in desperate need of some
information.  Both of us thoroughly enjoyed The Many-colored Land,
The Golden Torc, The Non-born King, The Adversary, and Intervention.
What we are in need of is information concerning her Galactic Milieu
Trilogy: Diamond Mask, Jack the Bodiless, and The Magnificat.  Have
these books been written? If so where can we get them?  They have
been mentioned at the end of Intervention and at the end of The
Plestoceine Saga (sorry for the spelling) but we have never seen
them and they do not appear to be in print in the US according to
Waldenbooks.  My copy of The Adversary is a British edition
published be Pan books which I bought in a SF specialty shop in
Baltimore called the White Hart.  This edition was available several
months before the Del Rey edition which is why I bought it.  I am
wondering if they might have published the trilogy but that it has
not yet reached the US yet.  I plan to write to them and ask if the
trilogy is available through them.  This of course hinges on the
fact that the books have been written.  If anybody has any
information concerning the status of this trilogy please let me know
by posting the information or by mail.  If they are available and
you know where we can get them please send us the address and phone
number of the dealer so that we can contact the dealer.  Thank you
very much for your cooperation, it is deeply appreciated.

juan

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 18:38:19 GMT
From: pomeranz@swatsun (Harold Pomeranz)
Subject: Re: Julian May

ecf_ejf@jhunix.UUCP (Juan Faidley) writes:
>A friend of mine and myself are in desperate need of some
>information.  Both of us thoroughly enjoyed The Many-colored Land,
>The Golden Torc, The Non-born King, The Adversary, and
>Intervention.  What we are in need of is information concerning her
>Galactic Milieu Trilogy: Diamond Mask, Jack the Bodiless, and The
>Magnificat.  Have these books been written?

I asked the same question about two months ago-- apparently they
have not been written but are planned for the (indefinite) future.
I hate waiting for prequels...

Hal
UUCP: {seismo, rutgers, ihnp4}!bpa!swatsun!pomeranz
CS Net: pomeranz@swatsun.swarthmore.edu
BitNet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!pomeranz@psuvax1.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 06:12:30 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: 'SF'

COK@PSUVMA.BITNET (R. W. Clark to the masses) writes:
>SF, I've found, is an odd little acronym.

Does anyone else remember that Judith Merrill in the introduction to
a story in one of her _Best of ..._ collections used the sentence
"For all we know SF stands for Space Fish."?  It had something to do
with the premise of the story, but I no longer have any idea what.
Does anyone know the year of the collection and the story name?
Thanks in advance!

William H. Ansley, Computer Science Graduate Student
uucp:     ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 02:59:00 GMT
From: uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Another open question

About 5 years ago Panshin said that *The Universal Pantograph* had
been written and would be published soon. (He also recognized the
Anthony & Torve costumes we were wearing for what they were. Some
people called Torve an Ewok, ferchrissake!) I guess he got too busy
re-publishing literary criticism and Eastern mysticism to get around
to *TUP*. Could the first person to invent a time machine please go
back and arrange for Panshin to get *TUP* published *before* he
meets Cory?

ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 06:29:47 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Hard to get H. Beam Piper

I'm an H. Beam Piper fan and have read all of his SF novels and
stories that I can get a hold of (via bookstores).  But there is one
novel of his that I cannot seem to track down through any bookstores
I get stuff through.  Piper has written one mystery novel
_Murder_in_the_Gun_Room_.  It is no longer published.

Does anyone know how I may go about getting a hold of a copy?

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 23:09:21 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!kalash@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Kalash)
Subject: Re: Hard to get H. Beam Piper

mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Mike J) writes:
>I'm an H. Beam Piper fan and have read all of his SF novels and
>stories that I can get a hold of (via bookstores).  But there is one
>novel of his that I cannot seem to track down through any
>bookstores I get stuff through.  Piper has written one mystery
>novel _Murder_in_the_Gun_Room_.  It is no longer published.

   That book had only one edition, the original hardback from Knopf
in 1953. Getting this book will cost some money, finding it with an
original dust jacket will cost a bunch of money. It pops up
semi-often in rare book catalogues, and will cost from $50 up to
about $175 (for a nice copy with a nice jacket). I got my copy
several years ago from Ralph Kristiansen in Boston (617) 424-1527.
The other obvious dealer to try would be L.W. Currey in NY (518)
873-6477.

Good Luck,
Joe Kalash
{uunet,ucbvax,sun,pyramid,lll-lcc}!unisoft!kalash

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 18:00:10 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: Vampire novels

Your mention of John Russo reminded me of George Romero, and his
brilliant film _Martin_. This is the tale of a boy who believes
himself to be a vampire. He may or may not be, but I refuse to
comment. To fuel his belief, he kills women and drinks their blood.
He's very good at it, and flashbacks (?) to the 19th century show
one of his earlier encounters, when he learned the most important
lesson: "They could catch me if they were calm...  but they never
are." Martin begins calling to a late night radio talk show, and as
"The Count" tells about his practices. It's an amazingly good film;
there's blood, but it is so unimportant compared to the overall
feeling of oppression that I can't see anyone finding it
inappropriate.  I can recommend it unreservedly as the best
treatment of vampires I've ever witnessed.

Kevin J. Maroney
mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 01:41:04 GMT
From: da1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel K. Appelquist)
Subject: Re:Child of Fortune

_Child of Fortune_ was great!  Probably one of the best SF reads of
my life.  Spinrad, as far as I'm concerned is a genius, especially
when you look at Void Captain's tale (a masterpiece) and compare the
two and realize how different they are.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 12:02:58 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Urth of the New Sun (kabalistic references)

I enjoyed "The Urth of the New Sun", though I don't think it reaches
quite the heights of the previous series.  It definitely has my vote
for the best overtly Christian science fiction novel.

One thing (actually many things, but let's pretend) confused me: Why
the garbled kabala?  He repeatedly referred to Urth's universe as
Briah, which is the world of creation in the four worlds model -
just one short of Atziluth, the abode of God.  In orthodox kabala,
our universe is Assiah, two steps below Briah.

Then he confused me further by going from Briah to Yesod, with Yesod
utterly enveloping and transcending Briah.  This would make sense if
he said "Malkuth" for "Briah", or even "Assiah", since in the four
planes model of the Tree Assiah and Malkuth are analogous; but Yesod
is generally considered a lower sphere than the Briatic spheres.

Was Gene just confused, or was he trying to say something in his
obscure way?  Any ideas from other students of kabala who have read
"The Urth of the New Sun"?  Is this just yet more (sigh) goyim
kabala?

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #524
Date:  7 Dec 87 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #524
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Dec 87 0940-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #524
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 524

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (17 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 20:16:41 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: Star Trek - TNG

BTH@IBM.COM (Brent Hailpern) writes:
>If I heard right, the USS Stargazer was a Constellation Class ship
>(as was the original Enterprise - right?).  But unlike the original
>Enterprise, the Stargazer had 4 engines/pods.  Did I hear wrong, or
>is there a more general definition of class?  (Or does it depend on
>which set is used for the bridge shots?)

  The original Enterprise was a Constitution-class vessel, not
Constellation.  Listen closely in "The Naked Now" (isn't videotape
wonderful? :-) ) and as Picard is reading the computer record over
Data's shoulder, he mutters to himself: "The Constitution-class
starship Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding...".

  Class of a ship is determined by the design. According to the
Technical Manual, the USS Constitution was NCC-1700, hence the name
of the class.

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 20:25:58 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
>It was mentioned that NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract. I
>tend to disagree.  I can't figure out what the N stands for, but I
>think CC stands for Constitution Class.  Remember, the Excelsior is
>NX.

  According to the Star Trek Concordance, by Bjo Trimble, NCC was
selected as the prefix on all ships, regardless of class, because:

    N - a 1928 adoption by the US Navy, still in use on starships
        (probably stands for Naval, I'm not sure.)
    C - "commercial"
    C - aesthetic balance

  Remember the Reliant (NCC-1864) and the Grissom (NCC-686? I'm not
sure.)

  The X in NX-2000 (Excelsior) stands for "experimental".

>I remember reading that USS stands for United Space Ship.

  True. It does.

>I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
>ever see a Klingon female?

  No.  "Day of the Dove" - Mara (Kang's wife), plus one or two
others in the background as the Klingons beam aboard the Enterprise.
"Star Trek III: The Search For Spock" - Valkris, a spy who obtains
the Genesis data for Kruge.

>A minor nitpick: In "The Battle", the Enterprise is "attacked" by
>the Star Gazer.  What ever happened to prefix codes (Star Trek 2)?

  Good question. The only thing I can think of is perhaps Riker and
Data were more worried about preventing Picard from using the Picard
Manoeuvre to fool their sensors and blast the Enterprise. It would
probably take too long for Data to enter the commands necessary,
although I have no doubt that he would recall the prefix code almost
immediately. (I wish I had that kind of recall - finals start next
week! AAARRRGGGHHH!)

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1987 16:07 EDT
From: Robert Keiser <RDK@TEMPLEVM>
Subject: Star Trek The Laws of Edos

First I hope that everyone realizes that we are arguing about a plot
device, which was the basis of the whole episode.  If it didn't
happen we would have had to watch an hour (minus commercials) of the
people of Edos walk around half naked (hmmm, that sounds pretty good
to me ;-).

Political immunity requires that both sides know about it.  It was
clear that the Edos knew nothing of political immunity and that the
Enterprise didn't try to get it.

I thought that the negligent party was the captain.  After all, on a
ship that is supposed to go where no one has gone before and a
science vessel, I can't believe that there is not a sociologist on
board.  Yar and the sociologist should have been sent down to find
out about the laws and cultural quirks of Edos.  It is tough to get
information from a people if you don't know how to ask the right
questions.

Robert Keiser
RDK@templevm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  3 Dec 87  11:44:32 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: The Battle

>In "The Battle", what happened to the prefix codes in Star Trek II
>when the Enterprise was being attacked by the Stargazer?

The reason they grabbed the ship with a tractor beam was because:

(1) They didn't have the time to locate the codes and use them

(2) If the shields had gone down they couldn't have blown the ship
    up with Picard still on board

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
nutto%UMass.BITNet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1987  12:43 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG -- The Last Battle

   It seemed to me that there were several reasons for leaving the
tractor beam on:

   1. If Enterprise should swerve to avoid something (like a star)
what happens to the other ship?

   2.  Objects tend not to travel at FTL naturally, so should the
other ship drift away from Enterprise, might it not fall out of the
warp field?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 1987  12:47 EST (Thu)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: ST:TNG -- The Last Battle

   Prefix Codes: I seem to recall from STII that the codes were sent
over when Khan was expecting some other transmission and thus
couldn't be sent through shields.  Also, it is reasonabe to assume
that anyone other than Picard knows about the codes (as they
probably do), Picard would be aware of that and could block it from
happening.  Remember, the primary use of the codes is to prevent an
enemy from taking over the ship.  They are probably less useful
against someone who has access to the (normally) secret information
about how a starship functions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 87 17:14:28 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Ferrengi and profit

It seems to me that a Ferrengi calling something "unprofitable" is
almost the same as a Vulcan calling something "illogical".  Anybody
agree?

BTW, Mitchel (sp?), this would mean that Riker's jab about the
profit would be like saying a Vulcan was acting illogically.  Snarl
= eyebrow?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 87 17:19:18 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Ferrengi revenge

>impressive or if they weren't "all ears." As for the arrest of the
>Ferengi captain, I think you are ignoring the fact that he was not
>arrested for seeking revenge against Picard. He was arrested
>because there was no material profit in his revenge. Had he at
>least broken even in the deal he would probably have been allowed
>to continue with his plans, thought maker or no thought maker.

No, the Ferrengi first officer (anybody care to post the names????)
said that he was being arrested for engaging in that profitless
endeavor.  I doubt that personal vendettas are allowed with the
Ferrengi, regardless of profit.  It was _RIKER_ who said the line
about "There was no profit in it," not the FFO.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 87 17:25:35 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Revenge (again)

"Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM  writes:
>>missed.  I was quite impressed with the integrity of the first
>>officer of the Ferrengi vessel.  First, he did not violate his
>>allegiance to his Captain, but when it became apparent that he was
>>out for vengeance against Captain Picard, he did something about
>>it.
>
>   I believe that he violated his allegiance when it was obvious
>that his captain was not planning on getting any profit from the
>endeavor.

No, it was obvious to him even back on the bridge.  "Ooh, ugly.
Very ugly."  It was only when the thought maker became involved and
it was obvious that he was out for revenge that the first officer
arrested him.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 17:16:25 GMT
From: hshiffma@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Hank Shiffman)
Subject: Re: NCC, USS, Klingons, etc...

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
>ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
>> I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
>> ever see a Klingon female?
>
>Depends on whether you want to count the movies and ST:TNG in the
>same continuum...

How about ST:TOG?  Wasn't it Day Of The Dove in which Susan Howard
played an old-style Klingon woman (ya remember, the one Kirk
threatened to off)?

>...I believe we saw a Klingon female in ST/III, right at the
>beginning: she transmits the Genesis data to the Klingon ship later
>to be cap- tured by Kirk & Co. -- and is then blown up with her
>chartered ship to preserve the secrecy of the exchange.  Remember
>now?

Why do you think she was a Klingon?  As I recall, she looked human.
You weren't assuming that she was a Klingon just because she had
something going with the Christoper Lloyd character, were you?  For
shame!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 87 17:30:52 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Registration numbers

The Excelsior was NX-2000 (Naval Experimental?) .  The Reliant was
NCC-1864.  The various Constitution class ships in the series had
permutations of 1701, because those were the only numbers the model
kits came with!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 87 23:04 CDT
From: <DDC4058%TAMVENUS.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> (Darian)
Subject: RE-exceptions to the prime directive ?

>    The PD was not meant as a save all, catch all; rather, as an
>instrument to keep the Federation from sticking its nose in
>wherever it went. It is true that races are better off if left to
>save themselves; but, in some cases, it may be necessary and
>morally correct for the Fed to step in. Such was one faced by my
>role playing crew and me this past week.
>     Scenario: You are on routine exploration and stumble across a
>20th century Earth look alike....  ....they are fighting a war and
>are about to exterminate each other with nuclear weapons. Tactical
>launches have already occured, so the infamous Firebreak has been
>breached. 7 billion souls rest on your decision. What do you do? I
>dare purists to tell me that our decision to interfere was wrong.
>We saved them, and broke the law doing it.

Maybe saving all these people seemmed the correct thing to do at the
moment but who is really to say which path (total destruction or
apparent divine intervention) is the better one.  Maybe total
destruction of this race will lead to the evolution of another race.
There is no way of really knowing.  By our (homocentric) values, the
immediate destruction of a race might be the lesser of two evils.  I
think that noninterference is the only choice.  If any other policy
were taken, then the Federation might fall victom to the urge to
shape a race of people into whatever they wanted.

There is another idea that crosses my mind.  It seems to me that if
two races interact, their views of the universe would tend to merge
together.  This would limit each race to following the same general
paths of thought in science, art, politics, ect.  In the beginning,
these two races may benefit from each others knowledge and ideas,
but in the long run, the lack of individuality may impare the
diversity of their new ideas (and thus limit scientific advances).
This point of view might make minimal contact with any other race
the more advantageous route to take where science is concerned.

Darian Carr

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 02:38:25 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - Awful Jewish Aliens

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi are
obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?

Overall, the series is showing signs of promise utterly lacking in
the pilot.  Thank Goddess that Troi uses complete sentences now.
Still too many stupid episodes, though.  "Hide and Q" was dismal.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 07:52:08 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (The Chameleon)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - Awful Jewish Aliens

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi are
>obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?

On the other hand, while being greedy and so forth are associated
with anti-Semitic stereotypes, they aren't _only_ so associated.
Was Dickens being anti-Semitic by writing about Scrooge in A
Christmas Carol?  Scrooge was no more Jewish than the Ferrengi, but
he did have the requisite characteristics from the point of view of
an anti-Semite.

Now what struck me most were the Ferrengi accents.  They seem very
similar to the stock "Oriental" accents in the old movie serials and
radio shows of the 30's and 40's.  Ming the Merciless and all that.
In any case, I'd be surprised if Star Trek was intentionally
supporting any racial/ethnic/religious stereotypes blatantly.  It
tends to bend over backwards the other way.  (Mr Riker, scanners
report a moral off the starboard bow!  Take evasive action!)

Anyone notice that evasive action _never_ works in ST (any
generation).  Why don't they just put the money into better shields?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 87 07:21 CDT
From: Cyberspace Cowboy <SHERZER%CRDBAT%eg.ti.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Prefix codes

From: Atul Butte <ST602397%BROWNVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>A minor nitpick: In "The Battle", the Enterprise is "attacked" by
>the Star Gazer.  What ever happened to prefix codes (Star Trek 2)?

Let me take a guess. In STII, the Klingons knew about the Genesis
project and had a lot of spy probes covertly monitoring the project.
As a result, they also monitored the battle. A Klingon SIGINT
(signal intelligence) probe recorded the prefix code which first
told them of the existence of prefix codes on Federation ships.
Shortly after, their espionage agents had stolen the codes for most
of the other starships. When the war broke out, the Klingons wiped
out a large portion of the fleet by using the stolen codes to turn
off shields. I suspect this is what happened to NCC-1701-B and -C.
The Federation counsel met in emergency session and decided that the
codes were great plot devices but bad military strategy and removed
them.

Allen Sherzer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 87 17:21:54 ECT
From: Steve <BG3503%BINGVMA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #521

>I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
>ever see a Klingon female?

Yes, you are mistaken.  A Klingon female appears in STTOS, I believe
the episode was Journey to Babel (though I may be mistaken).

Steve Wechsler

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  4 Dec 87  19:33:27 EST
From: Ellid%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Klingon females.

Someone recently asked if last week's episode of Star Trek was the
first time we'd seen a Klingon female.  In the old series, the
episode "Day of the Dove" featured a Klingon female who was the
captain's wife and his executive officer.  Also, there was Valkris
in the second movie.  This makes the third Klingon we've seen, to my
knowledge.

Lisa Evans
Malden, MA

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #525
Date:  7 Dec 87 1004-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #525
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Dec 87 1004-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #525
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 525

Today's Topics:

         Books - Anthony & Asimov & Humorous SF (9 msgs) &
                 Brief Reviews & Questions & Answers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 13:34:16 GMT
From: gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Piers Anthony

   In Piers Anthony's immortality book of War/Mars, the book 5 Rings
- A Book is referenced.  It is mentioned in terms on Kendo, and the
narrator refers to it as a standard martial arts reference.  Is it,
and if so, is an English translation of it available easily?  Title
/ translator /etc would be appreciated.

Larry W. Virden
674 Falls Place
Reynoldsburg, OH 43068
(614) 864-8817
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv (UUCP)
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 13:34:16 GMT
From: gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Asimov Questions

   I saw recently on the net a list of the Asimov novels listed in
the order that they supposedly occur.  Anyone have dates and
additional info on this?

   In Robots and Empire or perhaps Robots of Dawn (I just finished
both in the last month) Daneel and Elijah refer to a visit between
the two that occured at earth but sounded like was outside of the
first two novels.  I have not dug out the first two (it has been
ages since I read them); was the third visit between the two in the
second novel or is that in a short story somewhere?

Larry W. Virden
674 Falls Place
Reynoldsburg, OH 43068
(614) 864-8817
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv (UUCP)
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 08:52:57 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Humourous SF

For humorous SF, I hereby nominate the three Anthony Villiers novels
by Alexei Panshin, "Star Well", "The Thurb Revolution", and "Masque
World".  Great and witty books!

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 10:42 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Re: Humorous SF

anand@cm1.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand) writes :
>Bob Shaw: "Who goes there" has got to be the funniest sf of all
>time. Its about a blundering private's career in the galactic
>legion (equiv to foreign legion). Several of his short stories are
>funny too.

Without question, this is the funniest SF book I have ever read.

*SPOILER*
Especially the passage where the blundering private finds himself on
a planet where the only vegetation is tobacco plants, and the
atmosphere is 50-50 air and tobacco smoke, due to frequent fires.
The inhabitants reportedly get their kicks drawing air through small
white cylinders, filtering out the smoke.  Imagine the
possibilities, you could blow pure air rings !

Kai

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 87 10:47:23 GMT
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Humorous SF

"The Dragon and the George" by (arrrgghhh I've forgotten) G.
Dickson?

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 03:08:42 GMT
From: sunybcs!ansley@RUTGERS.EDU (William Ansley)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

Parts of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series are very funny as
are larger parts of _Free Live Free_ and a lot of _Peace_.  His
humor is subtle; I have reread _Peace_ at least 3 times and noticed
new jokes each time.

Gene Wolfe also had a wonderful funny sf mystery short story (which
I especially recommend for Nero Wolfe fans) in an anthology of
humerous sf called ... guess what, I forget the title, but I think
it was _Funny Universe_.  (Don't you HATE it when people post things
like this!)

For non-subtle sf humor try Reginald Brentnor's Papa Schimmelhorn
stories.  The best is probably the first, "The Gnurrs Come from the
Woodwork Out", but there are several others, all of which have been
collected in a book called _The Schimmelhorn Chronicles_ or
something close to that.  I find these very, very funny at their
best.

Back in the Golden Age of sf there were a series of very punny short
short stories about Ferdinand Feghoot by Grendel Briarton (a
pseudonym used by several authors, I believe).  These were fairly
recently revived in Asimov's SF Magazine.  I think there is a
collection of these called "Through Time and Space with Ferdinand
Feghoot".

Randall Garrett did a lot of good humorous pastiches and humorous sf
book reviews in rhyme.  Some of these have been collected in _Take
Off_.

Howard Waldrop writes short stories that are always strange and
often very funny.  There is a collection of his stuff called _Howard
Who?_

Parts of some of Jack Vance's stuff is hysterical, especially about
his character Cugel - _The Eyes of the Overworld_ and _Cugel's
Saga_.

My vote for funniest sf book of all time would go to _The Man in the
Dark Suit_ by Dennis R. Caro.  However my sense of humor is warped,
so everyone will definitely not agree.

These authors have been mentioned before but are worth repeating, I
think.

Philip K. Dick's _Galactic Pothealer_ may be his funniest book,
which means it's very funny indeed.

A good place to start with R. A. Lafferty is his short story
collection _The 900 Grandmothers_ although it's hard to find.  I
recommend all his short fiction highly for humor seekers.  His
novels are not quite as good or funny, in most cases.

I had better stop, before I think of any more!

William H. Ansley
uucp:     ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!ansley
internet: ansley@cs.buffalo.edu
bitnet:   ansley@sunybcs.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 12:32:23 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60aC)
Subject: Humorous SF

   _Virgin Planet_ by Poul Anderson
   _The Fallible Fiend_ by L. Sprague deCamp
   "Zeepsday" by Gordon Dickson (I think, can't remember where it's
      collected so I can't check the author;  funny story anyway)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 12:12:51 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

Maybe it's not cool to say so, but one of the funniest writers in SF
has to be Harry Harrison.  "Bill, the Galactic Hero" is the funniest
SF novel I've ever read; and before succumbing to sequelitis, the
Stainless Steel Rat books were highly entertaining.

Another good SF humorist is Thorne Smith.  I particularly recommend
"The Night Life of the Gods".  Very twenties, but still very funny.

Of course, all the mentions of Lafferty, Kuttner, Vonnegut, and so
on are quite right....

Humor pervades SF and fantasy, because the writers often are
perfectly aware that their subject matter is kind of silly.  A good
example is "A Martian Odyssey" - remember "We arrr vvvvrrrriends!
Ouch!"

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 13:22:42 GMT
From: ll-xn!drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Maybe it's not cool to say so, but one of the funniest writers in
>SF has to be Harry Harrison.  "Bill, the Galactic Hero" is the
>funniest SF novel I've ever read; and before succumbing to
>sequelitis, the Stainless Steel Rat books were highly entertaining.

Harrison's _Star_Smashers_of_the_Galaxy_Rangers_ is also worth
recommending, as a hilarious send-up of "Doc" Smith and his ilk.

Both "Star Smashers" and "Bill" were dramatized for BBC radio.  I've
been trying to get hold of tapes of the "Star Smashers" episodes,
but the British outfit I requested info from hasn't got back to me.
(And they still owe me a copy of "Volpa," a.k.a. "Volpla," that I
paid them for at Conspiracy...)

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 18:13:17 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SF that makes you go haha

From:   csun!aeusesef   (Sean Eric Fagan)
> Ok, there are some short stories by some autor whose name I
> forget, his stories were in Analog (Ian something or other?  I
> honestly do forget).  The stories concern Billy the Joat...

The author is Ian Stewart.

Before anyone assumes you misspelled "goat", Joat stands of "Jack of
all trades.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 15:45:16 GMT
From: mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Interrante)
Subject: RE: funny SF

Another very funny series of books is the Garbage Cronicles by Brian
Herbert.  (Yes son of Frank) The are a very funny satire of american
society and government.  There is even a ecological twist.  Not
childish satire.

Mark Interrante
CIS Department
University of Florida
Gainesville, FL  32611
(904) 335-8051
Internet:  mfi@beach.cis.ufl.edu
UUCP:  ...{ihnp4,rutgers}!codas!ufcsv!ufcsg!mfi

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 01:30:43 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Recently Read

Another in a continuing series of short reviews (i.e., not critiques
:-) All books recommended unless otherwise noted.

THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP                          Steven R. Boyett

After all the mention on the net, I grabbed this when I saw it in
Half-Price Books in Dallas.  It's an interesting book because it
hints at various plot - a "regaining the throne" kind of plot - but
doesn't develop it.  A sequel (if one is forthcoming) will probably
tell the story of how the throne is regained.

A LION ON THARTHEE                              Grant Callin

An enjoyable book.  An alien race leaves a ship outside Saturn's
orbit that will take a select group of astronauts to the Hexie's
homeworld, where they will presumably be judged.  On the Hexie home
world, humans learn about Hexies and vice versa, with sometimes
humorous results.

UNIVERSE 15                                     Terry Carr

This is the 1985 version of the Universe series, and it's fairly
mediocre as these collections go.  Possibly the most interesting
story is "Paladin of the Lost Hour" by Ellison; it was also made
into a Twilight Zone story.

INFERNAL DEVICES                                K.W. Jeter

Some people (blurb writers, at least) seem to think that Jeter is
the heir to Dick's writing throne.  I beg to differ.  While Jeter's
style is somewhat reminiscent of Dick, the execution and the
material are nowhere near the old man's standards.  Frankly, this
book is somewhat boring despite lavish inventiveness.  Perhaps I was
put off by the psuedo-Victorian stylings.

CASCADE POINT                                   Timothy Zahn

A collection of short stories from Zahn.  The title story won a
Hugo, apparently.  I didn't find it all that worthy, though it is a
workable piece.  Interesting to compare this book to...

BUDRYS' INFERNO                                 Algis Budrys

...two collections of short stories by craftsmen-like authors from
widely disparate time frames. (The Budrys' collection is from 1963.)

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 87  18:23 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Vampires / The Delicate Dependency

please....who wrote "The Delicate Dependency".  It rings bells
somewhere in my mind; I have read it sometime but I don't remember
it.....

Susan de Guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 13:13:28 GMT
From: ll-xn!drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Time Tunnel (book)

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
>(Does your "book of the same name" describe the adventures of the
>narrator, his friend Pete, and Pete's father, "Doc Tom," as they
>travel through a time thingie that manifests as a "rainbow ring?"
>If so, I have it too and it's of my all-time favorites!  I always
>wished there were more to it.  Loved the part where the
>brontosaurus blunders into the ring, and chunks of its
>electrically-sizzled meat fall through the ring into the
>laboratory...)

...And the narrator's absurd impression, as a cotton ball pops back
through the ring during an early experiment, that this is a machine
designed to manufacture little cotton balls out of thin air, one by
one.

And the relativity analogies, which the author must have known were
absurd in context, but which were impressive and confusing as hell
(to my tender years).

And the little early human girl whose people talked in "aye" words
and who called Doc Tom and Pete "Die Tie?  Pie?".

I think this juvenile was a Scholastic book, like Silverberg's
_Lost_Race_ _of_Mars_.  (That one also had some good lines that went
over the heads of most of its audience--"You're not planning on
wasting our resources on basic research, are you?")  Who wrote
_Time_Tunnel_?  Was it Lester del Rey?

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 13:34:16 GMT
From: gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Misc question

   The first science fiction long reading that I can recall was a
novel called "White August", set in England, and involved a climate
change so that England got what at least appeared to be snow.  I
dont remember a whole lot more other than I was in grade school so
that it was probably published by Doubleday or one of the other kids
publishers.  I cannot seem to find any references to this book or
its author, who I cannot remember.  Anyone able to help me out
there?

Larry W. Virden
674 Falls Place
Reynoldsburg, OH 43068
(614) 864-8817
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv (UUCP)
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 13:34:16 GMT
From: gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Misc question

I am looking for author and anthology names for a short story
(perhaps longer than that?) called I believe "MYOB".  I seem to
remember it being a Golden Age writing, by one of the pulp classics
perhaps, but not only can I not find it in the collections I thought
it in, the library searches that have been done have come up empty
as well.  The basic premise is a first contact like story masking a
social commentary on the USA political/social attitudes.  The title
stands for "Mind Your Own Business".

PLEASE!  I have really been searching for this one.  Though my
collection is not that large - perhaps not more than a 1000 or so
books, I have not been able to find the book containing what I am
looking for.  I really want to find this story.

Larry W. Virden
674 Falls Place
Reynoldsburg, OH 43068
(614) 864-8817
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv (UUCP)
cbosgd!n8emr!lwv@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (BITNET)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 06:58:35 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyf!djl@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dave Lampe)
Subject: Re: Misc questionings

lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) writes:
>I am looking for author and anthology names for a short story
>(perhaps longer than that?) called I believe "MYOB".  I seem to
>remember it being a Golden Age writing, by one of the pulp classics
>perhaps, but not only can I not find it in the collections I
>thought it in, the library searches that have been done have come
>up empty as well.  The basic premise is a first contact like story
>masking a social commentary on the USA political/social attitudes.
>The title stands for "Mind Your Own Business".

The story is in a book called "The Great Explosion" by Eric Frank
Russell in 1962. It is a collection of 3 or 4 stories telling of an
attempt by Earth to recontact colonies that had been lost for a long
time and that had evolved into unusual societies.

Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell
{lll-crg,pyramid,ihnp4,hoptoad}!ptsfa!pbhyf!djl  (office)
(415) 823-2408
ptsfa!pacbell!dplace!djl (home)
(415) 455-1571

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #526
Date:  7 Dec 87 1023-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #526
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Dec 87 1023-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #526
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 526

Today's Topics:

             Television - Beauty and the Beast (3 msgs)
                          Blake's 7 (3 msgs) & 
                          Max Headroom (4 msgs) &
                          Old Shows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 02:34:50 GMT
From: jimh@hpsadla.hp (Jim Horn)
Subject: Beauty and the Beas - Future?

   Does anyone out there have any information on the future of
``Beauty and the Beast''?  Our friends and ourselves greatly enjoy
it and are wondering what it's future is.  Any word will be
appreciated.

    Many thanks!

Jim & Celeste Horn
1212 Valley House Drive
Rohnert Park, CA  94928-4999
(707) 794-3130
{The World}!hplabs!hpspdla!hpsrla!jimh

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 87 19:48:38 GMT
From: collier@charon.unm.edu (Uncia Uncia)
Subject: Re: Beauty and the Beas - Future?

jimh@hpsadla.HP (Jim Horn) writes:
>     Does anyone out there have any information on the future of
>``Beauty and the Beast''?  Our friends and ourselves greatly enjoy
>it and are wondering what it's future is.  Any word will be
>appreciated.

I would also be interested in hearing about the show's future, and
how well it is doing in the ratings battle. Since I didn't start
watching it until well into the season, I would really appreciate it
if someone could also mail me a note explaining some basic
background for the show; namely: where did Vincent and his world
come from? Did anyone see "Name of the Rose"?  Quite an interesting
pair of roles for Ron Perlman.

Michael Collier
University of New Mexico Computing Center
2701 Campus Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM  87131
{ihnp4!lanl|cmcl2!beta}!unm-la!unmvax!charon!collier

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 18:55:48 GMT
From: arjay@ihlpf.att.com (Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Beauty and the Beas - Future?

I also would like to know about the future of Beauty and the Beast.

I met George R. R. Martin a couple years ago at a science fiction
convention and he mentioned at the time the general intent/flavor of
the show. So far I have NOT been disappointed!

The only reason I remember speaking with him at all regarding the
subject is because Beauty and the Beast has always been one of my
favorite fairy tales, and we were discussing the difficulties of
bringing it to the 'present' with all the feel of the romance,
without the sex (as in most shows) and sexism (as in the original
story).

I hope the series continues...
   ...and I don't miss the episode where they FINALLY kiss one
another!!!!

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 18:47:54 GMT
From: barth@ihlpl.att.com (BARTH RICHARDS)
Subject: Re: Blake's, all 7 of them!

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>Blake got a job with the National Shakespeare Company, so Blake
>essentially disappears until the "last" episode.  So don't be
>confused by the absence of the title character.  Still, the second
>half of the series is dominated by Blake's semi-evil cohort Avon.
>Everyone loves the actor who played him, Paul Darrow -- he can
>outsneer anybody in the Galaxy!

I never really saw Avon as evil or even "semi-evil."  He is
ruthless, when he needs to be (and sometimes when he doesn't), cold,
calculating, self- interested, and as emotionless as possible.  His
sense of humor vacilates between cynical and desert-dry, and is
sometimes both.

I quite like him.  I wouldn't necessarily want him as a friend, but
as a character, I find him most entertaining, and Villa's clown-like
demeanor is a good foil to his coldness.

You're right, though.  He can sneer with the best of them. :-)

Barth Richards
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihlpl!barth

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 18:46:54 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: How evil is Avon?

ecorley@dasys1.UUCP (Eric Corley) writes:
>I never really saw Avon as evil or even "semi-evil."  He is
>ruthless, when he needs to be (and sometimes when he doesn't),
>cold, calculating, self- interested, and as emotionless as possible.
>His sense of humor vacilates between cynical and desert-dry, and is
>sometimes both.

You describe Avon after he became the central character in "Blake's
7".  When the series started and all the characters were convicts on
a prison ship, Avon's morality is pretty extreme: it's quite clear
that he wouldn't rule out killing all the other prisoners to gain
his own freedom.  In fact, you can only enjoy this character if you
don't look at him too closely -- the transition from nearly
sociopathic criminal to intrepid (if somewhat ruthless) guerilla
leader was never explained to my satifaction.  Actually, a lot of
the premises established in early episodes of B7 were simply
discarded, some of them very early on.

The only reason I every watch these low-budge BBC SF shows is the
acting.  The science fiction is sometimes interesting, but usually
one gets the impression that the writers learned *all* their science
by reading each others scripts!  Anyway, Darrow is my all time
favorite.  Do you think if we started a letter-writing campaign, we
could get him to do Dr. Who?

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 01:21:17 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Re: Blake's, all 7 of them!

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
> Whoops.  After the Star One episode, the actor who played Blake
> got a job with the National Shakespeare Company, so Blake
> essentially disappears until the "last" episode.

Also note that the actors portraying Travis change at some point.
The second Travis, the one with the really thick Cockney accent, was
spotted in the BBC movie "Edge of Darkness" recently broadcast in
California.  He plays one of the nuclear power plant workers who is
in charge of pursuing the heroes through the bowels of the power
plant.  He's not particularly recognizable without the eye-patch,
but listen for the accent.

Murdock

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87  9:37 +0100
From: Kai Quale <quale%si.uninett@TOR.nta.no>
Subject: Max Headroom

There is a new TV channel starting in Norway around Christmas. Among
other things, it will feature Max Headroom. From what I have heard,
the episodes made by the original inventors of Max are the only ones
worth seeing.

Can anyone tell me how to tell whether the episodes featured in
Norway are the "good" ones or the "bad" ones ? (E.g. a date : When
did the inventors get kicked out of the show ? "All episodes made
after date X are crap").

I trust my sense of quality to tell the good from the bad, but it
would be nice to know what to expect.

Kai

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 08:09:46 GMT
From: DrOdd@cup.portal.com
Subject: Max and Cyberpunk

Max Headroom is Cyberpunk, almost as pure an example of the concept
as ever was. The only comprable audiovisual work is, of course,
"Bladerunner". The concepts which weave and bob througout the Max
shows are almost archetypically Cyberpunk.

Examples: The concept of ICE, introduced in one of the earlier
episodes as a countermeasure for computer intruders, was lifted
straight from "Neuromancer", THE seminal Cyberpunk novel. The whole
mix of high tech and low life pervades Cyberpunk literature like
"Neuromancer", "Count Zero" and "Hardwired". Blanks, before there
was such a thing. The Japanese influence, again from "Neuromancer"
and "The Cybernetic Samurai". Finally the whole pervasive media
concept is something straight out of real world Cybrepunk
institutions like the MIT Media Lab. Anyway, you get the idea.

It is regrettable that Max was pulled from the networks, but
completely predictable. The mass cultular gestalt is not ready for
such radically innovative concepts. Truly Max was ahead of its time.
But not to fear, Cyberpunk will come into its own in the future and
these shows are going to become cult items.

Without a doubt, Max will live on in Cyberpunk folklore and I have
little doubt that he will be cloned in the future.

In the meantime, here we are, in cyberspace....

Regards,

sun!portal!cup.portal.com!DrOdd
sun!cup.portal.com!DrOdd
DrOdd@cup.portal.com

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 19:54:38 GMT
From: barth@ihlpl.att.com (BARTH RICHARDS)
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale) writes:
>There is a new TV channel starting in Norway around Christmas.
>Among other things, it will feature Max Headroom. From what I have
>heard, the episodes made by the original inventors of Max are the
>only ones worth seeing.
>
>Can anyone tell me how to tell whether the episodes featured in
>Norway are the "good" ones or the "bad" ones ? (E.g. a date : When
>did the inventors get kicked out of the show ? "All episodes made
>after date X are crap").

The problem is that the first few episodes were *re*made by an
American production company for broadcast on ABC (not the Australian
ABC).  As I understand it, the first ABC run of six shows
(winter/spring of 1987) were all reworkings of episodes already done
by the British.  The second run (fall 1987) were stories newly
developed by the American producers.

In the States, you can get the British version of the premier
episode on video tape.  Having seen both this tape and the American
production of the first story, I'd have to say that I liked both
versions for different reasons.  The British version was a bit more
raw and gritty, but the American version had much cleaner
production.  The visual images were *much* more striking, but also
more polished.

I'm not sure which episode was the last one made by the original
creators, or if there were *any* British episodes made without them.
The assessment you heard could be referring to the difference
between the the British and American episodes.

I'm not sure if this really answers your question, though.

Barth Richards
AT&T Bell Labs
Naperville, IL
ihnp4!ihlpl!barth

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 17:08:00 GMT
From: harvard!bbn!ima!inmet!justin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Max Headroom

quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no.UUCP writes:
>There is a new TV channel starting in Norway around Christmas.
>Among other things, it will feature Max Headroom. From what I have
>heard, the episodes made by the original inventors of Max are the
>only ones worth seeing.
>
>Can anyone tell me how to tell whether the episodes featured in
>Norway are the "good" ones or the "bad" ones ? (E.g. a date : When
>did the inventors get kicked out of the show ? "All episodes made
>after date X are crap").
>
>I trust my sense of quality to tell the good from the bad, but it
>would be nice to know what to expect.

I've got to disagree with the basic premise of this. There were a
few bad episodes, but even at the end of the abortive second season,
it was still great stuff. Wretched science, but heck, the very
concept of Max is wretched science (all 1's and 0's, indeed!) Even
at the end, it was solid, literate social satire, with enough SF to
support the futuristic premise of the series.

Justin du Coeur

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 87 15:50 EST
From: Traveller <Traveller@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Old Shows, eh?

From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
>I think that one of the reasons that people rag so heavily on
>Battlestar Galactica and others (Space: 1999 being another example)
>is that the show had problems with formularity.  The first few
>episodes of Galactica were indeed quite good.  Galactica: 1980 was
>abysmally bad.  I myself am rather fond of Space:1999; PARTICULARLY
>the second season.  I freely grant that the two leads (can't even
>remember the actors' names) couldn't act their way out of a paper
>bag; but the OTHER characters were a joy, ESPECIALLY Maya!!

Ouch. You hit a sore spot on my Id, there.  Space: 1999 was one of a
trio of good, solid Sci-Fi-adventure series (The others were Doctor
Who and Star Trek, The Original-And-Still-Best Generation) which
kept me from becoming some nameless, faceless, illiterate hoodlum
wandering the streets in search of old "Love Boat" reruns.
Seriously. Commander Koenig was one of my heroes.

It wasn't the stories so much as the characters which made these
shows special for me, and I particularly remember Martin Landau and
Barbara Bain (Mister and Ms. Mission Impossible) as being excellent
actors for the two main roles of the show. (Martin Landau *almost*
ended up being Mr. Spock on Star Trek, can ya' imagine?!?)

Call me a Moonie, but I really took off on the show, even though the
knowledge of physics displayed wasn't so great. (** Eagle One gets
belted by a flying asteroid and comes away without even a dent. The
asteroid BOUNCES! **) Maybe I just like the plot concept of a strong
leader-type with an able and loyal crew facing challenge and
disaster on a day-to-day basis. (Like ST and UNlike ST:TNG)

All right, okay, I'll admit Maya was a neat addition to the cast in
Year Two.  I still have a hankering for the First Year series of
1999, when the series didn't mind waxing philosophical on occasion.
It had much of the flavor of 2001 to it.

And it could be really scary without seeming formula-ish.  "Dragon's
Domain" in particular comes to mind, remaining the only episode of a
science-fiction series from my childhood which ever seriously
spooked me.  ("Devil in the Dark" from Star Trek runs a close
second.)

>Anyone remember.......
>
>Quark

You mean I'm not the only one who thought this show beat the pants
off of anything else on Network TV when it came out? (Major Shock
and Colonel Disbelief here!)

I didn't see the first season, though I can't figure out how I could
have missed it, but I audio-taped every episode of the second
season. It seems like they dredged up a yucko pilot for the show as
the last episode just before they killed it, just to see if they
could thoroughly alienate the few diehard fans the show garnered,
but all of the other shows were hilarious, ironic, fascinating, and
everything else the Network censors don't like.

>Space Academy
>Jason of Star Command

Ick. A cross between Galactica and Buck Rodgers. I passed on these.

>The Fantastic Journey

Animated or not? I recall the Filmation animated series, but not a
live-action series.  (I always liked the scene in the animated
version where they smallify the ship.

>The Lost Saucer
>Space Nuts

Two absolutely dumb, but inescapably hilarious Saturday shows.  I
especially liked the Lost Saucer itself. (The androids I could pass
on but the saucer itself was cool.)

>Now it's my turn....  My all time favorite cartoon-type show was
>"Star Blazers".  Two seasons worth were shown in Philadelphia my
>junior year in high school (1981). Later I discovered that at least
>4 more were made in Japan (under the title "Space Cruiser Yamato"
>or some variant thereof) I actually saw one of these at Philcon
>several years ago in the original Japanese (with a simultaneous
>translator standing at the front of the room saying things like
>"and now they are singing about all the good times they had on the
>Argo (as it was called in starblasers)").  What a blast.

Talk about watching a show religiously! I'm a sucker for
Odyssey-type adventures.

>Land of the Lost - What a classic!  It's still shown in some places
>in syndication.  I've always wondered just where, specifically,
>they were.  I think there was a cast change.  I remember the
>episode where they went home.  Pylons, Sleestak, ah... what
>memories!

There was a cast change, not necessarily for the better. This ranks
with Space Nuts and the Lost Saucer as my personal favorites from
Saturday Morning.  I especially liked the Pylons. Perhaps I'm also a
sucker for dimensionally-trancendental time-distorting,
glowing-colors-and-mysterious-controls whimmy-diddles.

>Dr. Shrinker - Reminiscent of Electra-Woman.

Oh yes. It was on the Milk-Shakes Hour. (Or was it the Lemon-Fizzes?
:-)

How about the Invisible Man? Or the Magician? I remember next to zip
about the plots, but the storyline on each was interesting.

Anybody ever watch the Goodies? That was Sci-Fi, inbetween the
in-jokes on British Notaries.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  7-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #527
Date:  7 Dec 87 1037-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #527
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Dec 87 1037-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #527
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 7 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 527

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Conventions (4 msgs) &
                               What is SF (5 msgs) & 
                               SF Opera (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Nov 87 16:32:16 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: WorldCon and others (Request for info)

>Can anyone please tell me when and where the next WorldCon will be
>held?

The next Worldcon is Nolacon, held in 1988 in New Orleans. The 1989
Worldcon is Noreascon, in Boston (well, someone in the general
vicinity of Boston....) and the 1990 Worldcon is in the Hague,
Holland, with a NASFIC in San Diego. A great reason to go to Nolacon
is so you can vote for the 1991 Worldcon in Perth, Australia (I
always wanted to go to Aussieland...)

For complete listings of cons, the best sources are either Locus or
SF Chronicle, the industry newsletters (Locus tends to be more
complete and up to date)

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 87 17:32:17 CST
From: Rich Zellich <rzellich@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Cc: hpccc!okamoto@HPLABS.HP.COM
Subject: Re: WorldCon and others...

The 1988 Worldcon will be in New Orleans.  You will find a "master"
list of SF/fantasy/comics/media cons worldwide on host SRI-NIC.ARPA
in file <ZELLICH>CONS.TXT - unfortunately, the file is getting
pretty short (around 18 printed pages, instead of the usual 30 or
so), because I have the time to delete cons already past but, due to
a hot project, not much time to post all the updates I have on hand
(like a ton of flyers from the NASFiC, ICon, WindyCon, etc. and the
last issue of LOCUS that had a con listing in it).

Those unable to FTP the file can send a request to
ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA, and I'll mail you a copy.  Any update info.
for cons not listed, or listed only sketchily, will be appreciated,
too (I'm starting to catch up on things a bit, and hope to be back
on track by the first of the year with FREQUENT updates to the cons
list).

There is also a mailing-list for update-notices and, for people who
can't FTP the file and are willing to post or redistribute it on
their own systems, one that gets the whole file after a major
update.  Requests to be put on either of these also go to
ZELLICH@SRI-NIC.ARPA.

Enjoy,
Rich

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 19:25:23 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Convention Opinions Solicited

First of all, you are all the first to know that a contract has been
signed and plans are underway for the 15th Anniversary August Party.
It will be held the first weekend in August 1990.

The August Party has always been the Star Trek con run like an SF
con.  A big open con suite, no actors as guests, low membership
fees, and the people at the con making it what it is.  It ran from
1975-79, 1981 and 1985 (the 10th Anniversary).

Anyway, the reason for this message is: Since we are in the EARLIEST
of planning stages, we are wide open in the realm of ideas.  What
would you like to see at and SF/ST con.  What bugs you about the
cons you've attended, what did you really like?  What panels would
you like to see (don't limit yourself to SF/ST topics)?

No guarantees we'll agree.  I'm hoping this message might stir up
some interesting discussion on the net.  Or, email me your response
if you'd rather.

If your answer is purely SF or purely ST oriented, edit the
newsgroups line when you respond.

Thanks for your help.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 1987  17:53 EST (Fri)
From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
Subject: SILiCON III

Coming soon to a hotel near you...

                            SILiCON III

That's right, it's time once again for SILiCON, the convention of
real-time, real-space roleplaying.  This year, SILiCON will be March
18-20, 1988 at the Days Inn in Woburn Mass.

Also this year, we'll be running 5 games, more than ever before,
featuring:

Operation Atlantis: Following the discovery of the Contra-Gravity
generator by a drunk physics student at MIT, world tensions have
reached new heights.  Things looked bleak indeed until someone in
the United Nations proposed the brilliant idea of building Atlantis,
a gigantic flying city, a project too immense for any one country to
complete on its own.  But all is not as it seems...  Why did Colonel
Robert A.  Ffolkes, head of the Committee On Constructing Atlantis
recently disappear?  Is there any truth to the rumours that the
Secret World Organization for Retribution and Destruction (SWORD)
has been secretly controlling the construction of Atlantis?  Why was
the great Bolov Kornchechs committed to a sanitorium?  Find out in
Operation Atlantis, brought to you by Steve Balzac, Russell Almond,
Mike Zehr, Aimee Yermish, Mike Donaghue, Brad Sagarin, and Robert
Lawler.

[Note: If you played Atlantis when it ran as the fall '86 Assassin
game you will not be able to play this time.  Assassins who were not
around for the first run of the game will be handled on a
case-by-case basis, but don't get your hopes up.]

Masque of Illusion: *Attention All Magic Users* The power and
efficiency of magic has been failing at an alarming rate, a trend we
fear will continue.  Any and all concerned peoples are invited to
attend a special emergency meeting in the hamlet of Wallbridge,
where we believe the magical disruption is located, to attempt to
arrest the decline and restore the world's magic to its original
state.  Daniel Lawrence and Nancy Carlson present Masque of
Illusian, a game of magic and politics in land where magic once held
sway...

The Day the Earth Stopped Moving So Much: There were strange lights
in the sky that night.  The Marines from Camp Grunt were definitely
on the move.  Sensing devices were going crazy at Labial University,
Joe's Nuclear Power Plant and Grill, and at Zorph Photonics.  The
lights and phones went dead.  You might say something strange is
going on, but you wouldn't because nothing strange ever goes on in
Tuckertown, until now...  Michael Rowe and K. Dalton Barrett bring
you The Day the Earth Stopped Moving So Much.

Shakespeare's Lost Play: In the 350 years since the immortal Bard
died, who knows how much of his work could have been lost?  Well,
the SIL's crack team of historiothespians, John O'Neil and Steve
Kelner, have unearthed a notebook belonging to the Bard himself,
containing notes for a new play.  Characters, plots, settings, all
are there.  Players will have the chance to declaim in rolling
oratory, duel to the death, cast spells, and become a leader of men
and women.

Superego: We're looking for a few good people to save the world, or
destroy it, in Superego, the live roleplaying superhero adventure in
which players become caped crusaders, masked vigilantes, evil
masterminds, and super villains.  It's a struggle for survival in a
bizarre and action-packed comic book world, brought to you by Bob
and Lisa Montgomery.

To sign up for SILiCON, send your name, address, telephone number,
age, sex, a ranking of which games you would like to play to:

   The Society for Interactive Literature
   130 Morrison Ave
   Somerville, MA 02144

------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 87 18:47:28 GMT
From: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction

jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner) writes:
>>Ok, perhaps I was unclear.  You seem to imply that that sf must
>>have ADVANCED technology.  Now I ask: is it possible to have a sf
>>story that involves current or even past science?
>
>Many SF stories deal with this.  The most obvious ones are
>post-Holocaust novels.  For example, A Canticle for Liebowitz
>(Walter Miller) is about the process of rediscovering 20th century
>science.  There is no science in the novel that goes beyond what we
>know today.  (I phrase this carefully, because Canticle also
>contains a small dose of folklore and Catholic mysticism that is
>non-scientific, though very well done.)

An outstanding example of this genre is Keith Roberts' PAVANE, which
is absolutely SF, but lacks almost any "modern" technology.

Walter

------------------------------

Date: 16 Nov 87 17:38:27 PST (Monday)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

From: Russ Williams <CS.RWILLIAMS@R20.UTEXAS.EDU>
>interesting question.  And if you insist that the science of the
>story not exist yet, then does the story cease to be sf if its
>"predictions" come true?  E.g. if someone wrote a story in 1940
>that talked about a moonshot in the 1960s, would that story not be
>sf?

   O.K. maybe I should have said that the technology had to be
advanced at the time the book was written.  The authors, in these
cases, tried to visualize the impact of a higher level of technology
on their society and thus their books would be considered SF.

>they'd just be classed as "historical novels".  Imagine a story
>like Lest Darkness Fall in which the protagonist has crashed via
>natural means into a primitive culture (say he's a 19th c. African
>explorer or something) and uses his modern 19th c. technology as
>Padway did in LDF.  No advanced tech and no magic; would it be sf?

   NO.  this is fantasy since (it seems) no (semi-)reasonable
scientific explanation for his time travel was given.

>than half the first book 9 years ago...)  The example of an alien
>invasion does not require hitech -- recall the movie Invasion of
>the Body Snatchers -- if the aliens can travel through space
>"naturally".  Yet it certainly seems like sf.

   But it isn't.  The "there are aliens from outer space, so this
must be Science Fiction" idea has been with us for a while.  In the
case of Body Snatchers it was just a device used to explain the
appearance of these beings. An accident in a chemical lab, an
escaped virus, a genetic mutation etc. could all have been used
instead.

>  Yet it certainly seems like sf.  In short, Science does not imply
>Technology, and it seems reasonable for a sf story to have
>interesting scientific ideas (e.g. life that can travel through
>space) without hitech.

   I can see how some people would accept stories that explore
interesting scientific ideas as Science Fiction.  I would agree with
them, if the ideas involved things that are not known to exist and
were discussed in a scientific way (i.e with things like
explanations, theories or hypotheses based on scientific
principals).  So in a way you have convinced me to broaden my
definition of SF.

>Finally, there is the idea of sf as stories about science's effect
>on society.  There are books like 1984 in which a lot of the
>technology already exists; the speculative part that makes it sf is
>the ways in which the technology is being used.  This twist that
>makes this sort of book sf rather than mainstream is a twist that
>has nothing to do with science or technology per se, but about
>society/government/culture.

   1984 has some technology in it that was not around at the time it
was written (1930's?).  Even so, it is really at the fringes of my
idea of SF since (as you mention) it is really a book about
society/government/culture and not the science per se.

   You have made some strong arguments and even changed my mind in
one case, but clearly there is no world wide definition of what SF
is just as there is no world wide definition (or even idea :-)) of
what (good) art is.  Still, I think I'm right and you're not, so
there :-) :-) :-) :-).

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 01:26:01 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction

hunt@cg-atla.UUCP (Walter Hunt) writes:
>>post-Holocaust novels.  For example, A Canticle for Liebowitz
>An outstanding example of this genre is Keith Roberts' PAVANE, which
>is absolutely SF, but lacks almost any "modern" technology.

If "Pavane" is the one I'm thinking of (it was published with "Piper
at the Gates of Dawn" as a prequel), it wasn't a post- holocaust
story.

It was an alternate-history story where a small number of people in
that universe had contact (visions, whatever) with our universe.
They were essentially in power with the Church (RC apparently) and
used that power to try to avoid the wars we know too well.  Part of
the method that they used was in suppression of technology.  That
part was downplayed and the story as a whole was somewhat
mystical...but most beautifully done.  Of course, I might have the
wrong story in mind.

If not, try to find it.  It is quite wonderful.

seh

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 08:07:54 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE Fiction

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
>If "Pavane" is the one I'm thinking of (it was published with
>"Piper at the Gates of Dawn" as a prequel), it wasn't a post-
>holocaust story.

Well, PAVANE wan't exactly a post-holocaust story, but rather an
alternate universe story.  Good book, anyway.

Still, it wasn't the one you were thinking of.  "The Road to
Corlay", by Richard Cowper, was the novel which was associated with
"Piper at the Gates of Dawn".  Another good book.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 13:36:01 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: SCIENCE Fiction

> From: concertina!fiddler
>> An outstanding example of this genre is Keith Roberts' PAVANE,
>> which is absolutely SF, but lacks almost any "modern" technology.
> If "Pavane" is the one I'm thinking of (it was published with
> "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" as a prequel), it wasn't a post-
> holocaust story....It was an alternate-history story...

Well, yes it is and no it isn't. PAVANE is an alternate history
story , but "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" was a prequel to THE ROAD
TO CORLAY by Richard Cowper, which *is* a post-holocaust story.

Both PAVANE and THE ROAD TO CORLAY are very much worth reading.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 19:10:10 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: New Science Fiction Opera by Glass and Lessing

I saw an article in the Houston Chronicle a couple of days ago about
a new opera from Philip (Phillip?) Glass and a Ms. Lessing.  I
believe the title was something about "The construction of an
ambassador" or something similar, but I do remember that it will
play July 5-9 next year at the Houston Grand Opera, and that the
author called it a Science Fiction opera.  Anyone have real
information about this?

Vernon Lee
Rice University
scorpion@rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 09:21:36 GMT
From: tra4@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Jonathan H. Traum)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Opera by Glass and Lessing

scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee) writes:
>I saw an article in the Houston Chronicle a couple of days ago
>about a new opera from Philip (Phillip?) Glass and a Ms. Lessing.
>I believe the title was something about "The construction of an
>ambassador" or something similar, but I do remember that it will
>play July 5-9 next year at the Houston Grand Opera, and that the
>author called it a Science Fiction opera.  Anyone have real
>information about this?

I don't know anything about this particular opera, but several years
ago in Miami I saw a different science fiction opera called "Minutes
to Midnight". I don't remember who wrote it, but the story was about
a scientist who invents a "doomsday device", and the consequences
thereof.  It was quite interesting, and if anyone knows anything
about it, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Jonathan Traum
UUCP: ...!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!tra4
Internet: tra4@sphinx.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #528
Date:  8 Dec 87 0806-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #528
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 87 0806-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #528
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 528

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 87 18:52 AST
From: <FNJOS%ALASKA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: ST:TNG Warp factors

I've seen some references to warp speed/warp factors and what they
mean in ST:TNG.

To quote from the Writer's Guide.....

   Warp factor 1 is the speed of light. Warp 10 is the physical
   limit of the universe -- beyond that normal time-space
   relationships do not exist and a ship at that velocity may simply
   _cease_to_exist.

   Generally, the highest speed the Enterprise will cruise at is
   Warp 6 -- which measures one light-year per hour.

There is no reference to a warp factor being related to the speed of
light raised to some power. Nor is it clear whether warp factors
increase linearally, exponentially or logrithmacally.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 10:17:52 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

I thought this one would be settled by now, but no one seems to be
able to get it right.

Klingon females are treated by Klingon males as sub-sentient.  The
first appearance of a female Klingon was in the third season episode
"Day of the Dove", which is dismissed as inauthentic by most
knowledgeable people.  The Klingon female was an officer, which goes
against everything that has ever been said about Klingon gender
relations; this glaring error is the result of the total
carelessness that went into the third season.

Valkris, the female agent in the movie, was not a Klingon, but a
Romulan.  The Klingons and Romulans have a long-standing alliance.
Valkris looked absolutely nothing like a Klingon.

The first authentic Klingon female appearance is indeed in "Hide and
Q".

I like the fact that the Klingons are portrayed as sexist scumbags,
but it disturbs me that all major sentient races except humans and
Romulans put women in a subservient role (Klingons, Vulcans,
Ferrengi).  It almost seems as if we are being told that female
subservience is part of the natural order of sentience.  There are
no major female-dominated sentient races, two semi-egalitarian
races, and three male-dominated races, a clear imbalance in favor of
male dominance.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 04:48:58 GMT
From: motown!ninja!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - Awful Jewish Aliens

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi are
>obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?

Yes.

>Overall, the series is showing signs of promise utterly lacking in
>the pilot.  Thank Goddess that Troi uses complete sentences now.
>Still too many stupid episodes, though.  "Hide and Q" was dismal.

Just why was Hide and Q dismal? I thought it was one of the better
episodes thus far.

Bill Wisner
..{codas,ihnp4}!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 04:47:04 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: STTNG: Hide and Q

jagardner@orchid.waterloo.edu (Jim Gardner) writes:
>No surprise in any of this -- just that another alien was
>sufficiently unfamiliar with human nature to realize the strength
>of our perverseness.  If we are GIVEN a life of ease, we reject it;
>if we think we've earned a life of ease, we'll hang on.

But this isn't true! Think of all those who have inherited their
wealth and the lifestyles they lead: people who have inherited it
are often just as bad, or worse, than those who have earned it when
it comes to hanging on to that life of ease. And what about those
who have won Lotto?

Kev
..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 06:20:44 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: ST Bridge Crew

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (The Chameleon) writes:
>Also, if they can make voice-activated computers that can do
>everything to control the Stargazer, WHY DO THEY NEED BRIDGE CREW?

They make the show more interesting than shots of a bridge set and a
computer mumbling to itself. Too bad they can't make the writers of
the show realize the silliness of their plot inconsistencies. :-)

Kev
..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 06:49:59 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG

ngorski@COL.BBN.COM (Nici Gorski) writes:
>The only part that disheartened me was that Riker took it upon
>himself to save that sniveling little runt Wesley.  What a
>wonderful show it would have been if he had disappeared for good.

I think we have progressed from the battle cry that "WESLEY MUST
DIE" to the new, improved battle cry: "WESLEY MUST *STAY* DEAD!!"

First he *alllllmost* dies (and oooooooh did they have me hanging on
the edge of my seat drooling, just WAITING for him to die), but no
cigar. THEN, Lord- Amighty he REALLY DOES BUY IT (well, actually he
never got to go belly up on the ground, but he was as good as dead),
and STILL they bring him back.

Heeeeeeyyyy -- maybe we've got something here. How many of you would
love a new writing twist where in every new episode of TNG Wesley
dies in more and more shocking and gruesome ways, only to be
resurrected again and again?  Hahar this could be good!! Ooooooo the
sadism! TNG could become even more of a cult phenomenon than the
original show just because of this!!

Anyone seen the movie _Harold and Maud_, wherein at the beginning
this rich kid keeps staging suicide in gorier and gorier fashions
just to try to get his mother to give him more attention? That was
quite a cult movie in the past -- at least a mini-cult movie, or
maybe a mini-mini-cult movie, at least in this area....

But hey, this could be fun!

Kev
..sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 12:11:51 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP writes:
>tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi
>>are obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?
>
>On the other hand, while being greedy and so forth are associated
>with anti-Semitic stereotypes, they aren't _only_ so associated.
>Was Dickens being anti-Semitic by writing about Scrooge in A
>Christmas Carol?

Do you think greed is the only resemblance?  A race of short,
untrustworthy, greedy interstellar traders with big noses, big ears
and bad complexions, whose private ways are mysterious to us decent
folk, seems to touch anti-Semitic stereotypes at more than one
point.  Eight points, in fact.

If this isn't anti-Semitic, then have I got a race for you.  They
are thick-lipped, broad-smiling cannibals who live in the jungle and
are congenitally lazy.  Don't worry, this isn't anti-black; they are
colored aquamarine; it's only five similarities, after all.

>Now what struck me most were the Ferrengi accents.  They seem very
>similar to the stock "Oriental" accents in the old movie serials
>and radio shows of the 30's and 40's.  Ming the Merciless and all
>that.

Yes.  Not at all coincidentally, I was musing on the prevalence of
overt racist stereotypes in fantasy fiction of that period when I
realized that, if ST:TNG had been written in the 1940's, the
Ferrengi would have been explictly Jewish.  The presence of the ugly
accent is just another contributing factor in this judgment:
negative stereotypes in audible fantasy fiction usually have an ugly
accent, and ugly accents rarely appear in other contexts.

>In any case, I'd be surprised if Star Trek was intentionally
>supporting any racial/ethnic/religious stereotypes blatantly.  It
>tends to bend over backwards the other way.

Say what?  I think the whole attitude towards alien sentients in
Star Trek is about as racist as it possibly could be!  Every
sentient race we have examined in any detail is boiled down to a
small set of stereotyped attributes: Vulcans are tight-ass
ultra-rationalists, Klingons are back-stabbing brawlers, Betazoids
are spacy empaths, Ferrengi are deceitful greed-heads, Blacks are
lazy criminals, Arabs are pederastic hanky-heads - oops, scratch
those last two.  There are no other sentient races portrayed as
being as diverse and contrast as humans, just as in more overtly
racist fiction no other races are as diverse as whites.  How could
alien races be presented in a more stereotyped fashion than they are
now?

(In case you couldn't tell, this kind of species-ism is one of my
pet peeves in fantasy and science fiction in general.  It is
particularly bad in Tolkien and his derivatives, but appears in just
about every story with non-human races.  One is always able to know
a great deal about the non-humans' personalities merely by knowing
what race they are.  Star Trek didn't invent it, but it has not even
tried to transcend it.)

Jean Lorrah, I am told, in "The Vulcan Academy Murders" (which I
have not read, so don't bite my head off if I get it wrong) tried to
rationalize the obvious lack of diversity in alien races by saying
that humans had spread out over their planet to an unusual though
not unique degree, and that the more common pattern was for sentient
life to cluster in one geographical area.  This is not bad as a
rationalization - it does make some sense - but a rationalization is
exactly what it is.  It is not how the aliens were conceived and it
has not entered into how they have been portrayed.

Tim Maroney,
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 10:14:25 GMT
From: motown!ninja!killer!davidg@RUTGERS.EDU (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) says:
> Klingon females are treated by Klingon males as sub-sentient.  The
> first appearance of a female Klingon was in the third season
> episode "Day of the Dove", which is dismissed as inauthentic by
> most knowledgeable people.  The Klingon female was an officer,
> which goes against everything that has ever been said about
> Klingon gender relations; this glaring error is the result of the
> total carelessness that went into the third season.

I don't suppose that you would care to explain where you got this
idea from, would you?  It appeared in the T.V. show, so that makes
it, for the most part, a part of the "real" Star Trek universe.

> Valkris, the female agent in the movie, was not a Klingon, but a
> Romulan.  The Klingons and Romulans have a long-standing alliance.
> Valkris looked absolutely nothing like a Klingon.

What???  She sure looked like a Klingon to me!  And she sure as hell
didn't look anything like a Romulan!  Remember, it is already a WELL
established fact that Romulans look very much like Vulcans, due to
their probably having been one race in the long-distant past.

> The first authentic Klingon female appearance is indeed in "Hide
> and Q".

Really?  I strongly disagree!

> I like the fact that the Klingons are portrayed as sexist
> scumbags, but it disturbs me that all major sentient races except
> humans and Romulans put women in a subservient role (Klingons,
> Vulcans, Ferrengi).  It almost seems as if we are being told that
> female subservience is part of the natural order of sentience.
> There are no major female-dominated sentient races, two
> semi-egalitarian races, and three male-dominated races, a clear
> imbalance in favor of male dominance.

No disagreement there, with the exception that you are forgetting
that the high mucka-muck boss of Vulcan is female.  Hardly a
subservient role!

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4, codas}!killer!davidg
INET: davidg@killer.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 05:45:02 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

davidg@killer.UUCP (David Guntner) writes:
>tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) says:
>> Klingon females are treated by Klingon males as sub-sentient.
>> The first appearance of a female Klingon was in the third season
>> episode "Day of the Dove", which is dismissed as inauthentic by
>> most knowledgeable people.  The Klingon female was an officer,
>> which goes against everything that has ever been said about
>> Klingon gender relations; this glaring error is the result of the
>> total carelessness that went into the third season.
>
>I don't suppose that you would care to explain where you got this
>idea from, would you?  It appeared in the T.V. show, so that makes
>it, for the most part, a part of the "real" Star Trek universe.

Why do you suppose that?

In the episode "The Trouble with Tribbles", a Klingon officer says,
while leeringly tracing a woman's figure in the air, that "Klingon
vessels don't carry ... luxuries".  He explicitly said there were no
Klingon women on Klingon starships.  This fits with the fact that in
no other episode in which Klingons appeared was there any hint of
Klingon females in the vicinity, regardless of the size of the
Klingon party, until "Day of the Dove".

"Tribbles" was, of course, one of a handful of "definitive" Star
Trek episodes, such as "City on the Edge of Forever", "Amok Time",
"Space Seed", and so forth.  "Day of the Dove" was one of the worst
of the generally awful third season episodes, which were produced
under a completely different creative team from that of the first
two seasons.  If "Spock's Brain" contradicted "City on the Edge of
Forever", it's pretty clear which would be taken as accurate; and it
is no less so when the conflict is between "Day of the Dove" and
"The Trouble with Tribbles".

>> Valkris, the female agent in the movie, was not a Klingon, but a
>> Romulan.  The Klingons and Romulans have a long-standing
>> alliance.  Valkris looked absolutely nothing like a Klingon.
>
>What???  She sure looked like a Klingon to me!  And she sure as
>hell didn't look anything like a Romulan!

People often see what they expect to see.  Of course, that statement
could apply to either of us.

>> There are no major female-dominated sentient races, two
>> semi-egalitarian races, and three male-dominated races, a clear
>> imbalance in favor of male dominance.
>
>No disagreement there, with the exception that you are forgetting
>that the high mucka-muck boss of Vulcan is female.  Hardly a
>subservient role!

I think you're forgetting what we saw of the relationship between
Sarek and Amanda.  "My wife, attend!" and all that.  Patriarchal
cultures always have a few token female leaders, like Elizabeth the
First, to prove that they aren't as bad as they would otherwise
seem.  The chief requirement of such leaders is that they not upset
the system of male dominance; for instance, wife-beating was the
social norm under Elizabeth.

And by the way, though T'Pau was a galactically known and respected
leader, there was no implication that she ruled Vulcan.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 00:31:54 GMT
From: psuvax1!lll-winken!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - Awful Jewish Aliens

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi are
>obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?

I disagree with your use of 'obviously'.  The sterotype of the
merchant only out for a profit is not one which is specifically
related to Jews, although that is the group that gets hit with some
of the nastiest of the 'humor' in that vein.  Consider the
stereotype of the Scotchman, as exemplified by Scrooge McDuck, or
the line my Dutch ex-girlfriend told me was popular in Holland: "It
takes two Scots to be as stingy as one Jew, and two Jews to be as
stingy as one Dutchman".

Stereotypes the Ferengi are, but not necessarily anti-semitic ones.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #529
Date:  8 Dec 87 0825-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #529
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 87 0825-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #529
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 529

Today's Topics:

                    Books - Henderson (6 msgs) &
                            Niven (4 msgs) &
                            Rice (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 87 12:39:30 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Zenna Henderson

From:   ncoast!allbery  (Brandon Allbery)
>> *The Anything Box* doesn't have any People stories, to the best
>> of my recollection.
>
> It has the story "Ararat" (I think that's the title) -- about the
> teacher from "Outside" who turns out to be one of the People.
> This story is what turned me on to Henderson, and the People, in
> the first place.

"Ararat" is in no edition of THE ANYTHING BOX that *I* know of. You
must've read it either in PILGRIMAGE or an anthology.

I posted a People bibliography once before, but that was a few years
ago. Here it is again. All of the People stories were originally
published in F&SF, and the dates listed for each story below refer
to issues of that magazine.

PILGRIMAGE: THE BOOK OF THE PEOPLE  (1961)

   "Ararat"             Oct 1952
   "Gilead"             Aug 1954
   "Pottage"            Sep 1955
   "Wilderness"         Jan 1957
   "Captivity"          Jun 1958
   "Jordan"             Mar 1959

THE PEOPLE: NO DIFFERENT FLESH  (1966)

   "No Different Flesh"      May 1965
   "Deluge"                  Oct 1963
   "Angels Unawares"         Mar 1966
   "Troubling of the Water"  Sep 1966
   "Return"                  Mar 1961
   "Shadow on the Moon"      Mar 1962

HOLDING WONDER  (1971)

   "The Indelible Kind" Dec 1968

uncollected

   "Katie-Mary's Trip"  Jan 1975
   "Tell Us a Story"    Oct 1980

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 87 05:27:47 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: "The People"

   Someone (lost the names; just read 200 msgs, remember) was
discussing a series of (books? movies? episodes?) of something
called "The People."  Is/was this related to a movie I saw once (I
was about 8) called - what else? - "The People," starring William
Shatner as some sort of new school- teacher in a rural community of
mysterious people who turned out to be space refugees from someplace
they called "The Home"?  If so, or even if NOT, any pointers to a
copy of this film would be appreciated!

Chris Chiesa
..{backbones}!iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 04:07:59 GMT
From: jsloan@wright.edu (John Sloan)
Subject: Re: Old SF shows; "The People"

Wasn't the show "The People" taken, directly or indirectly, from the
works of Zenna Henderson? She wrote warm, humanistic stories of
alierefugees who came to present day Earth, fleeing some disaster on
their own planet, to set up an agrarian closed society, very Quaker
like. They avoided higher technologies, and had psychic powers which
they rarely demonstrated.

John Sloan
Wright State University Research Center
3171 Research Blvd.
Kettering, OH 45420
(513) 259-1384
(513) 873-2491
jsloan@SPOTS.Wright.Edu
...!cbosgd!wright!jsloan

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 87 04:04:56 GMT
From: hartman@swatsun (Jed Hartman)
Subject: Re: "The People"

>    Someone (lost the names; just read 200 msgs, remember) was
>discussing a series of (books? movies? episodes?) of something
>called "The People."  Is/was this related to a movie I saw once (I
>was about 8) called - what else? - "The People," starring William
>Shatner as some sort of new school- teacher in a rural community of
>mysterious people who turned out to be space refugees from
>someplace they called "The Home"?  If so, or even if NOT, any
>pointers to a copy of this film would be appreciated!

Well, yes, that made-for-tv movie WAS based on the Zenna Henderson
stories -- but it was really horrible.  At least, in comparison to
the stories; I must admit that I had read and loved _Pilgrimage_
long before seeing the film, so I was extremely biased.

jed hartman
...{{seismo, ihnp4}!bpa, cbmvax!vu-vlsi}!swatsun!hartman

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 08:52:57 GMT
From: ucla-cs!ucbvax!unisoft!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J.
From: Farren)
Subject: Re: "The People" (the movie)

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
>   Someone (lost the names; just read 200 msgs, remember) was
>discussing a series of (books? movies? episodes?) of something
>called "The People."  Is/was this related to a movie I saw once (I
>was about 8) called - what else? - "The People," starring William
>Shatner as some sort of new school- teacher in a rural community of
>mysterious people who turned out to be space refugees from
>someplace they called "The Home"?  If so, or even if NOT, any
>pointers to a copy of this film would be appreciated!

The People was a made-for-TV movie, from Francis Ford Coppola, which
starred Kim Darby as the teacher and William Shatner as the doctor,
loosely based on Zenna Henderson's stories of The People, collected
in "Pilgramage: the Book of The People" and "The People: No
Different Flesh".  Good movie, great books.

Michael J. Farren
unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 16:42:56 GMT
From: ll-xn!drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: "The People"

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
>   Someone (lost the names; just read 200 msgs, remember) was
>discussing a series of (books? movies? episodes?) of something
>called "The People."  Is/was this related to a movie I saw once (I
>was about 8) called - what else? - "The People," starring William
>Shatner as some sort of new school- teacher in a rural community of
>mysterious people who turned out to be space refugees from
>someplace they called "The Home"?  If so, or even if NOT, any
>pointers to a copy of this film would be appreciated!

As has been pointed out before (but, since I was a real "People"
buff during early adolescence, I'm happy to do it again), the 1970s
TV movie _The_People_ was based on a series of stories by Zenna
Henderson.  The movie was a real hodgepodge of characters and plots
from the stories but owes more to "Pottage" than to any of the other
tales.  I hadn't read the stories when I first saw the movie, and
besides, I was only ten or eleven, so I didn't know any better than
to like it.  :-) The books have a lot more substance, though they're
hardly more scientific.  I tend to interpret the religious
background of the stories as as the fantasy gimmick that enables
interbreeding, etc., between the People and Terrans; they're so much
like us because the Power (one of their terms for God) set things up
that way.

The movie starred Kim Darby as the schoolteacher and William Shatner
as Dr.  Curtis.  It should be listed in any reasonably comprehensive
book of movies on TV.

Most of the People stories were collected in two books with
tacked-on framing narratives that turned them into pseudonovels.
These books are _Pilgrimage:_The_Book_of_the_People_ and _The
People:_No_Different_Flesh_.  A later People story, "The Indelible
Kind," is included in the story collection _Holding_Wonder_.
Another collection by Henderson, _The_Anything_ _Box_, is worth
buying even though it doesn't contain any People stories.

There were also a couple of People stories in the magazine F&SF
after these collections appeared.  One, "Katy-Mary's Trip," is from
the 1970s and is a mostly misguided look at how the People might or
might not fit into a post- 1960s world filled with new mind-sets and
new approaches.  (The conclusion was valid enough--most folks would
still freak out.)  The second, from the early 1980s, has the
distinction of being the only People story not to be told in first
person, and is mostly unmemorable otherwise.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 87 15:59:42 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Niven's continuity

BARBER@portland.BITNET (Wayne Barber) writes:
> Now comes the confusing part: Why didn't Louis Wu know about
> Schaeffer's exploits in *Long Shot*?  Why did he know so little
> about the Core Explosion? ...  These are the inconsistencies in
> the story that always left me wondering if this was the same Louis
> Wu.

Beowulf was Louis' adoptive father that is definite.  Further I
don't think there are inconsistancies.  100 years is a long time to
remember stories told by your adoptive father (more if you figure
most of the stories were told to him as a child).  In "There is a
Tide" he figures out the solution quick enough (i.e. not as if it
were on the tip of his mind, but as if somewhere back there he had
been told something like this.

I have always had the impression that Louis and Beowulf were close
when Louis was young and drifted apart when Louis grew up.  Almost
like Louis decided that he wanted to associate with his real father
when he became a teenager.  I have some idea that Louis was not real
proud of himself as a young adult (he would have been extremely
smart and rich).  Perhaps this was to the point that he alienated
himself from his adoptive father and the practical lessons that he
would have been taught about space as an adult were never given to
him.  Also it is possible (since the origin of Sharrol's children
was never kept secret) that he came to feel that Beowulf was
inferior to his real father and distanced himself from him
(something I feel he regrets when he gets older).  It is also
possible that Beowulf dies young either due to accident or because
he doesn't want to use boosterspice.

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 24 November 1987 16:38:07 CST
From: Charles Franklin     <C38871CF%wuvmd.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Niven

jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) writes...
>Recall, *no one* in Known Space, except for the Puppeteers, knew
>about the Core Explosion, or even about the Hyperdrive II. It's
>quite likely that the Puppeteers bought off Bey to keep both items
>a secret, for whatever reasons. After all, if everyone in Known
>Space knew about it, the Puppeteers' flight to the Magellanic
>Clouds might be interfered with. This, of course, would not do.

   Not so. Bey was initially hired to write about his trip to the
core in order to promote the hyperdrive II. When he returned, the
Puppeteers had fled, leaving him a message that he could do what he
wanted with the story. There is no evidence at all that they tried
to suppress the story.

     Further evidence: In Ringworld, when Louis Wu first meets the
Puppeteer, Nesus (or whatever his name is) is shocked when it
appears that Louis has forgotten the core explosion.  Something like
"Can this have been forgotten???"  Clearly Nesus expected Louis to
know all about the core explosion. He is not surprised that Louis
doesn't know of the Hyperdrive II, though he says Louis should have
deduced its existence, since conventional hyperdrive could never
have gotten to the core.

  SO... we conclude that Bey Shaeffer's silence was not bought.
That he did inform Known Space of the core explosion. So the mytery
of Louis Wu's ignorance of his "father's" exploits remains puzzling.
If it was his father, that is.

Charles Franklin
C38871CF@WUVMD.BITNET
Washington University

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 19:25:27 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Schaeffer and Wu

C38871CF@wuvmd.BITNET (Charles Franklin) writes:
>   Further evidence: In Ringworld, when Louis Wu first meets the
>Puppeteer, Nesus (or whatever his name is) is shocked when it
>appears that Louis has forgotten the core explosion.  Something
>like "Can this have been forgotten???"  Clearly Nesus expected
>Louis to know all about the core explosion.

Let's not forget that the Puppeteers are industrial-strength
cowards.  The wavefront of the core explosion wasn't expected to
pass through Known Space for another 20,000 years or so.  For
Puppeteers, this would be enough to set off total racial panic and
get them to haul their entire Kemplerer Rosette system out of the
local galaxy.

Humans would tend to figure that it wasn't worth worrying about
until disaster was imminent...then they would hope that a solution
to surviving the disaster, or at least better transportation would
be available.

After all, we expect that the sun will eventually go red giant and
parbroil Terra...some day...we'll worry about it when the time
comes.  But who do you know who's really concerned about such a
remote potential happening?

seh

------------------------------

Date: 29 Nov 87 04:20:46 GMT
From: hplabs!csun!aeusesef@RUTGERS.EDU (sean fagan)
Subject: Re: Schaeffer and Wu

fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) writes:
[says Puppeteers are cowards, and 20000 years is too soon for them]
>Humans would tend to figure that it wasn't worth worrying about
>until disaster was imminent...then they would hope that a solution
>to surviving the disaster, or at least better transportation would
>be available.

Also, remember that Puppeteers generally don't like hyperspace it's
too dangerous for their tastes.  Humans (and most other known
species), on the other hand, don't mind hyperspace (as long as the
ship doesn't have windows 8-)), and could almost definitely get out
of the galaxy in merely a few hundred years.  It makes sense.

Sean Eric Fagan
Office of Computing/Communications Resources
Suite 2600
5670 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
(213) 852 5742
1GTLSEF@CALSTATE.BITNET
{litvax, rdlvax, psivax, hplabs, ihnp4}!csun!aeusesef

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 09:06:00 GMT
From: quale%si.uninett@tor.nta.no (Kai Quale)
Subject: Re: Anne Rice

>> Anyone else read these?
>   Yes!  I have read _Interview with the Vampire_ and thought it
>was excellent.  I enjoyed the view of a vampire as a regular person
>caught up in a bizarre situation, as opposed to a "Prince of
>Darkness".  I haven't yet read _The Vampire Lestat_, though it is
>sitting on my shelf at home (too many books, not enough time).  I'm
>glad to hear it is a good read.  I shall get to it sooner or later.

I can only agree heartily. _Interview_ is beautiful in a kind of
quiet, contemplating way. _Lestat_ has more action, but the
characterization doesn't suffer in any way. If possible, _Lestat_
kept me even more on my toes. It gave me dark circles under my eyes,
sunken cheeks and a pronounced pallor due to lack of sleep, food and
fresh air. It's funny, but my friends complain that I never seem to
be out in the daytime anymore.

Kai

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 12:23:35 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: more on vampire novels...

Anne Rice fans may want to check out her pseudynomous S&M novels,
"The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty", "Beauty's Punishment", and
"Beauty's Release".  She wrote them as "A. N. Rocquelaure".  The
setting is a vague feudalistic fantasy world, with no magic except
that implied by the superhuman tolerance of the heroine and her
fellow victims, and the spell that prevents them from ever having to
relieve themselves at an inappropriate moment....

It's not Great Art by any means, but for porn the books are very
well written, and Rice has a well-developed feel for the location of
those secret buttons.

If you were wondering how Rice wrote a great book like "Interview
with the Vampire" as her first novel, now you know; she wrote the
Beauty books first, and didn't let on until she was too
well-established for them to make a difference.

Tim Maroney,
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 23:39:17 GMT
From: ames!esl!ian@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Ian Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Anne Rice

In addition to the vampire books Anne Rice has also written "Exit to
Eden" and "The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty", both under pseudonyms.
These books are quite different from the vampire books.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #530
Date:  8 Dec 87 0841-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #530
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 87 0841-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #530
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 530

Today's Topics:

              Television - Old SF TV Shows (10 msgs) &
                           The Starlost (2 msgs) & 
                           Captain Power

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 07:16:02 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
> The Fantastic Journey : Do you mean The Fantastic Voyage?

If so: I just saw a new Asimov book today:
         _Fantastic_Voyage_2:_Destination_Brain_

  Wow!!!!  Now I know what I want for Christmas!

> Starlost : I've been hearing a lot about this one but never saw
> it.

As I recall, sealed communities of humans on a multi-generation
interstellar spaceship, who've FORGOTTEN they're on a ship, etc.
Three young people discover the exit from their section, rediscover
that it's a ship, and find that it was damaged several generations
ago and has been off-course ever since.  They spend the rest of the
series trying to get the ship back on its proper course, etc.  As I
recall, the series was noted most for wasting incredible amounts of
time on closeups of people "staring in awe" at one thing or another
-- much as did Space:1999 a few years (later?).  I was only about 10
at the time, but I remember grumpily noting that all the action of
an episode of EITHER "Starlost" or "Space:1999" would've fit into a
five-minute Star Trek opening teaser with room to spare.  Someone
wrote to our newspaper while this was on the air, wishing that the
"Starlost would STAY LOST!"  Definitely "grade B".

> UFO : Was this the one with a base on the moon when alien saucers
>       with lasers battles Earth "vipers" firing missiles?

I think so, if I've understood what you mean.  Moonbase seemed to be
staffed largely by identical women with silver hair sorta
"scalloped" around their eyes.  Back on Earth, there was, among
other things, a submarine vehicle called SkyDiver, the forepart of
which could detach and fly.  The commander (Straker) 's office was
disguised as that of a movie producer, but the whole room would sink
like an elevator, into the underground headquarters of "SHADO,"
whatever THAT acronym stood for (next volunteer, please).

> Time Tunnel : I have a book of the same name, never heard of the
> show.

If you have the same Time Tunnel book as I do (more below), it's got
NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the show -- just happens to have the
same name.

  When Time Tunnel was on the air, I was too young to understand any
of it; all I knew was that they time-traveled and that it was great
to be able to do that!  I finally learned what it was about, some
fifteen years later, from of all places, a coloring book.
Apparently it was about "Project Tic-Toc", devoted to exploration of
Time, using - what else? - the Time Tunnel.  Somehow, either
intentionally or by accident, two men are sent off into history,
arriving each week at some significant historical event (including
the sinking of the Titanic - they got off just in time, of course).
I think the premise was that when they tried to bring the two men
back to the present, they'd instead get thrown into a different
time.  Oops.

(Does your "book of the same name" describe the adventures of the
narrator, his friend Pete, and Pete's father, "Doc Tom," as they
travel through a time thingie that manifests as a "rainbow ring?"
If so, I have it too and it's of my all-time favorites!  I always
wished there were more to it.  Loved the part where the brontosaurus
blunders into the ring, and chunks of its electrically-sizzled
meat fall through the ring into the laboratory...)

Incidentally, thank for a marvelous trip down Memory Lane (cough
cough) !

Chris Chiesa

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 17:36:13 GMT
From: jnp@calmasd.ge.com (John Pantone)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

O.K. - I can't stand it any longer - Who remembers Science Fiction
Theatre?  Is it in syndication anywhere? (this was late 50's/early
60's - best vehicle for short stories ever).

John M. Pantone
GE/Calma R&D
Data Management Group
San Diego
...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp
jnp@calmasd.GE.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 87 17:38:07 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: obscure sf tv

ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet)  writes:
>1. A show called the Phoenix, about this alien who wore some type
>of medallion.

I remember this show-- I think the Phoenix was an alien on a quest
to find others of his kind.  Any Trekkies out there will remember
him as Joachim from Wrath of Khan.

>3.A show about a salvage operation, starring Andy Griffith.

Salvage One.  Did they ever get that robot working again?

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 02:16:59 GMT
From: maslak@unix.sri.com (Valerie Maslak)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

I remember Science Fiction Theater, the narrator, the weird devices
scattered around the desk top at the beginning of each episode...

Valerie Maslak

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 87 11:29:45 GMT
From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@CMS.UMRCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Old SF Shows

UFO wasn't done by the BBC. It was another Gerry Anderson series.

Also, "My Partner The Ghost", if it is the series I think it is was
called "Randell and Hopkirk:Deceased" in Britain and was produced by
a subsidiary of one of the British independent networks.

Geoff

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 13:30:08 GMT
From: ll-xn!drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

jnp@calmasd.GE.COM (John Pantone) writes:
>O.K. - I can't stand it any longer - Who remembers Science Fiction
>Theatre?  Is it in syndication anywhere? (this was late 50's/early
>60's - best vehicle for short stories ever).

Back when I was still getting cable, I saw an adaptation of Jack
Finney's "Of Missing Persons" on A&E's "The Golden Age of
Television."  (I highly recommend the latter series if it's still
being aired.)

"Of Missing Persons" may or may not have originally run as an
episode of "Science Fiction Theatre."  It sounds like a good
candidate, though.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 19:12:13 GMT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa (Jerome Freedman)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

   I don't know if that many of you are old enough to remember
these.  If you remember Howdy Doody you might.

  Captain Video
  Tom Corbett and the Space Cadets

  and a half hour Flash Gordon (no not with Buster Crabbe) a
definite TV series with Dale and Dr. Zarkov. I remember Flash always
wore a T Shirt and every body had Stun guns which "froze" people no
matter how outlandish or how unstable their posture.

Jerry Freedman, Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa
(617)271-4563

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 20:23:56 GMT
From: jws@hpcllf.hp.com (John Stafford x75743)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

Re: UFO
   The wigs worn by the women on moonbase were of a purple hue and
were described (at least in the books the followed the series if not
actually on the air) as "anti-static wigs".
   SHADO = Supreme Headquarters Alien Defense Organization; the
problem of course being that it was used everywhere any part of the
organization was and not just at the "Supreme Headquarters".

Re: Time Tunnel
   The first scientist (Tony -- James Darren) sent himself back in
time when the powers that be threatened to cancel the project; the
second one (Doug -- Robert Colbert) was sent back to get the first
out of detention on the Titanic.  Tony was locked up for warning of
the coming (impossible) sinking and for being dressed funny (i.e. he
was a kook).  Doug one was sent back in period clothes and aware of
the danger of talking too much.  And yes, they could not bring them
back to "now", they could only move them from time to time (the
series ended with them still lost in time).

John Stafford
Hewlett Packard Computer Language Lab
{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!hplabs!hpclla!jws
{fortune,sun,thirdi,ucbvax}!hpda!hpclla!jws

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 15:15:32 PST (Saturday)
Subject: Re: Obscure SF TV shows
From: Gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.COM

The Fantastic Journey -- what a great show!

Along with Roddy McDowall, Ike Eisenmann, and Carl Williams (which
were already mentioned), the starring role of Varian was played
by...

Jared Martin.

Too bad that one didn't do better in the ratings.  Sigh.

scott

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 11:03:47 PST (Monday)
From: Wahl.es@Xerox.COM
Subject: Land of the Lost
Cc: ll-xn!drilex!carols@rutgers.edu

Actually, it was the last episode of the first or second season,
"Full Circle" that showed the Marshalls getting home -- by bringing
themselves in at an earlier time period.  Thus explaining the
reruns.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 21:22:00 GMT
From: okie@ihlpf.att.com (Cobb)
Subject: Re: "The Starlost"

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
> Thought you might like to know that "The Starlost" was originally
> conceived of and written by Harlan Ellison.  The utterly
> incredible (and truly depressing) story of how it was mangled and
> destroyed by its ignorant producers is detailed by Ellison in an
> essay, entitled "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas
> anymore..."  The essay is included in an anthology called
> "Stalking

It is also detailed in a hilarious sendup of the whole "Starlost"
tragedy, a novel entitled "The Starcrossed."  I don't remember the
author's name right now (Ron Goulart, maybe?), but it dealt with a
very difficult writer, a great idea for a science-fiction television
show, inept producers, greedy network execs... well, you get the
idea.  I read it about six years ago and thought it was great!
Definitely worth reading if you find it, especially if you know
about Ellison's "Starlost" encounter.

> In the essay he mentions that his original screenplay for the
> series pilot episode, called "The Starlost #1: Phoenix without
> Ashes", was actually published, in some obscure anthology
> probably.  Does anyone know anything more about this, since I'd
> love to read it.

The book "Phoenix Without Ashes" was indeed published a few years
back, based on Ellison's screenplay, but I don't remember the
publisher or the author (I don't think it was Ellison, but someone
who had his blessing).  Not a bad read, and an interesting premise.
Too bad it didn't fly (so to speak).

By the by, did you know Elllison insisted on having his name changed
in the "Starlost" credits to "Cordwainer Bird?"

BKCobb
AT&T Bell Labs
Technical Publications
ihnp4!ihlpf!okie

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 13:23:16 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Walt Disney)
Subject: Re: "The Starlost"

okie@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Cobb) writes:
> cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
>> Thought you might like to know that "The Starlost" was originally
>> conceived of and written by Harlan Ellison.  The utterly
>> incredible (and truly depressing) story of how it was mangled and
>> destroyed by its ignorant producers is detailed by Ellison in an
>> essay, entitled "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas
>> anymore..."  The essay is included in an anthology called
>> "Stalking
>
>It is also detailed in a hilarious sendup of the whole "Starlost"
>tragedy, a novel entitled "The Starcrossed."  I don't remember the
>author's name right now (Ron Goulart, maybe?), but it dealt with a
>very difficult writer,

The author was Ben Bova, who served as a technical consultant for
"The Starlost," and whose highly accurate advice was completely
ignored by the producers in their pursuit of the Great Cliches.

>> In the essay he mentions that his original screenplay for the
>> series pilot episode, called "The Starlost #1: Phoenix without
>> Ashes", was actually published, in some obscure anthology
>> probably.  Does anyone know anything
>
>The book "Phoenix Without Ashes" was indeed published a few years
>back, based on Ellison's screenplay, but I don't remember the
>publisher or the author (I don't think it was Ellison, but someone
>who had his blessing).

I believe the publisher was Pyramid books (this was in the late
'70's).  Edward Bryant was the main author listed on the cover,
although Ellison may have co-written it. . .

   As long as we're on the subject of Ellison screenplays, I recall
reading (about ten years ago) the original screenplay for "The City
on the Edge of Forever" of Star Trek fame.  I was rather surprised
how much the executives screwed with the script, as I had always
considered this episode one of Star Trek's best.  It was in an
anthology of Science Fiction plays (the only other play I remember
from the collection was "R.U.R." by the Czech author whose name
escapes me now, but wherein was the first use of the term "robot").
I'm fairly certain the anthology was edited by the Martin Greenberg
of the '70's, Roger Elwood.

   It's well worth getting your hands on to see what sort of dolts
make important creative decisions in La-La Land.  For instance,
Ellison had a crew member flipping out (he was addicted to some sort
of futuristic drug) and jumping through the time-travel hoop.  But
noooooo, NBC execs said that no one on the Enterprise would ever
lose their cool, despite the fact that several hundred human beings
are crowded into one big vessel and are constantly subjected to
stressful situations.  And of course no one on the Enterprise would
ever be addicted to *any* kind of substance (but of course it was
all right for Scotty to get smashed on Scotch in other episodes, and
for McCoy to suck down his mint tuleps.) Gee, I guess those execs
were right--how many servicemen do you know of that indulged in
substance abuse?  So the execs' solution was to have McCoy inject
himself by accident with some sort of drug, and give him a chance to
overact.

   The biggest, unforgivable cop-out on the executives' part was
this: in the original version, Kirk fell in love with Edith Keeler
(as he did in the final version)--BUT--with this important
difference: he loved her so much, that he would not let her get run
over (Spock had to run out and push her in front of the truck, or
some such thing).  Kirk was willing to let the entire universe
change because he loved this woman so much, let the Nazis win World
War II, let the Enterprise and his crew disappear. . .  The execs'
verdict?  No way, Jose.  Kirk would never sacrifice his ship for
some stupid *woman*.  The ship comes first of course. . .

   They also totally eliminated a character from the screenplay
which Ellison felt was on of his most favorite TV creations (a
legless veteran from Verdunnes who selflessly takes on a phaser
blast to save Kirk).  What a buncha feebs. . .

   Anyways, is this screenplay available any place else besides this
anthology?  It's well worth having.

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  6 Dec 87  19:57:50 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Captain Power

I was watching Captain Power with a friend of mine today and noticed
that she was squinting all through the show. When it was over she
said she had gotten a severe headache. I was wondering, since the
show fires invisible beams back at the people watching, could the
beams damage a person's eyes? For that matter what kind of beams are
they using? And if they are damaging, the people that made the show
could get sued nice and proper.

andy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #531
Date:  8 Dec 87 0906-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #531
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 87 0906-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #531
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 531

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Clarke (6 msgs) & Piper &
                         Saberhagen (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 15:08:54 GMT
From: jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing)
Subject: Re: 2001, 2010

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>I recently heard that Arthur C. Clarke has come out with 2068.
>Anybody know more about this?

Actually, it is 2061, not 2068.  I saw the hardcover in B. Dalton's
last weekend.  I haven't read it yet, but I did read the jacket and
it seems that Heywood Floyd (who must be pushing 100 by this point)
is still around and has another encounter with Dave and HAL.  That's
all I know at this point, but I do intend to get the book soon.
Maybe someone out there has more insight?!

Jim Clausing
CIS Department
Ohio State University
Columbus, OH 43210
jac@ohio-state.arpa
jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 20:24:23 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Re: 2001, 2010

jac@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jim Clausing) writes:
>it seems that Heywood Floyd (who must be pushing 100 by this
>point)...  ...

    Actually, he's 103 years old in _2061:Odyssey_3_.  This book is
more of an outer space travelogue (ala _Ringworld_) then it is
event-focused.  I was sort of disappointed overall.  (The end hits
you -BANG!- right in the face and doesn't resolve anything.  It's as
if though Clarke suddenly ran out of ideas and decided to wrap it
up.)  I'm almost sorry I bought the book in the first place and
would only recommend it to people who feel they MUST have the full
_Space_Odyssey_ trilogy.  You'll get more pure enjoyment out of
re-reading _The_Deep_Range_.

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
1000 NE Circle Blvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 20:45:30 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

>jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay Smith) asks:
>>In 2001 the Discovery's centrifuge is described as being located
>>along the equator of the sphere at the front of the ship, making
>>it horizontal.  In 2010 the derelict Discovery is tumbling
>>end-over-end about its midpoint, due to the transference of
>>angular momentum from the once-spinning centrifuge which was
>>slowed to a stop by friction.  Clarke is no slouch at physics, but
>>I am, so correct me if I'm wrong here: if the ship were tumbling
>>end-over-end wouldn't that imply that the centrifuge was vertical
>>within the sphere (went from pole to pole), and if the ship's
>>tumbling was due to the slowing of the centrifuge wouldn't it be
>>rotating about the center of the sphere rather than the ship's
>>midpoint (near the AE-35 unit)?  I can't believe that Clarke would
>>take the time to imagine the tumbling ship and its cause, and
>>still get it wrong.  What's going on here?
>
>I'm not sure which orientations you mean by "vertical" or
>"horizontal".  Remember that there is no "down" to judge these by
>in space.  There are 2 significantly different orientations
>possible here.  Either the axis of the centrifuge runs along the
>long axis of the ship, or it is perpendicular to it.  If it is
>perpendicular to it, then I don't know how you would define whether
>it is vertical or horizontal.  In other words, the difference
>between "end over end" and "sideways" is only which side you are
>looking at it from.
>
>Inertial (unaccelerated) objects can only spin about their center
>of mass.  The total angular momentum of the Discovery will be
>conserved, but it will be transferred from the centrifuge to the
>entire ship.  There is a sense here too, in which this is just a
>matter of perspective.  However, any frame of reference which has
>the Discovery spinning about some point other than its center of
>mass will not be an inertial frame of reference.

First of all, the centrifuge is constructed such that it's axis
does, in fact, run through the long axis of the Discovery
(documented in _2001_, the novel, and also in
_The_Lost_Worlds_of_2001_).  Also (as mentioned the the _2001_
novel) Bowman de-spun the centrifuge prior to leaving Discovery in
the work pod (and subsequently being lost through the Star Gate).
When the centrifuge was de-spun, all of the energy was stored in a
disengaged flywheel (disengaged via mechanical clutch) so that
centrifuge spin could later be restored.  Supposedly, the flywheel
spin was slowly lost to the entire ship over the years (due to
normal bearing friction).

Now I am not aware of any documentation or reference to the specific
design of the flywheel or it's physical relationship with the
centrifuge, but I would assume that the flywheel's axis is identical
to that of the centrifuge (i.e.  in line with the lone axis of
Discovery).  If this is the case, then Discovery should have been
spinning around it's long axis, rather than end over end in
_2010:Odyssey_2_.

Can any of you physics or mechanical engineering majors suggest a
sequence of events that would have translated the axis of rotation,
as demonstrated in the movie?

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard - Corvallis Workstation Operation
1000 NE Circle Blvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 20:44:20 GMT
From: moss!whuts!mjs@RUTGERS.EDU (SCHEUTZOW)
Subject: Re: 2061: odyssey 3

>>I recently heard that Arthur C. Clarke has come out with 2068.
>>Anybody know more about this?
>
> Great book!  Check it out.  Heywood Floyd returns to
> Jupiter/Lucifer for further adventures.

This is not a 'great book'.  Floyd has an adventure that happens to
be in the same solar system as the monoliths, HAL and Dave Bowman.
They are unrelated to the story line.

Wait for the paperback.

Mike S.
whuts!mjs

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 20:20:25 GMT
From: sdcsvax!jack!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) writes:
>First of all, the centrifuge is constructed such that it's axis
>does, in fact, run through the long axis of the Discovery
>(documented in _2001_, the novel, and also in
>_The_Lost_Worlds_of_2001_).  Also (as mentioned the the _2001_
>novel) Bowman de-spun the centrifuge prior to leaving Discovery in
>the work pod (and subsequently being lost through the Star Gate).
>When the centrifuge was de-spun, all of the energy was stored in a
>disengaged flywheel (disengaged via mechanical clutch) so that
>centrifuge spin could later be restored.  Supposedly, the flywheel
>spin was slowly lost to the entire ship over the years (due to
>normal bearing friction).
>
>Now I am not aware of any documentation or reference to the
>specific design of the flywheel or it's physical relationship with
>the centrifuge, but I would assume that the flywheel's axis is
>identical to that of the centrifuge (i.e.  in line with the lone
>axis of Discovery).  If this is the case, then Discovery should
>have been spinning around it's long axis, rather than end over end
>in _2010:Odyssey_2_.
>
>Can any of you physics or mechanical engineering majors suggest a
>sequence of events that would have translated the axis of rotation,
>as demonstrated in the movie?

Sure.  If I remember correctly from the movie, there weren't any
struts or anything leading up from the centrifuge to the center of
the ship, so it seemed to just be a track suspended on rollers.  It
would be rather difficult then, to make a flywheel whose axis was
parallel to the central axis and in the center of the ship and
connect it up to the centrifuge.  The flywheel would have to be
fairly massive so it would need to be kept near the center of the
ship to have enough room to house it.  The easiest way to connect it
to the centrifuge would be to have its axis meet the centrifuge at
the centrifuge's edge, causing the flywheel's axis to be ninety
degrees off from the ships axis.  The flywheel would then have
caused the ship to rotate end over end.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!man,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
man!sdeggo!dave@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 06:05:15 GMT
From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Lord Julius)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) writes:
>Now I am not aware of any documentation or reference to the
>specific design of the flywheel or it's physical relationship with
>the centrifuge, but I would assume that the flywheel's axis is
>identical to that of the centrifuge (i.e.  in line with the lone
>axis of Discovery).  If this is the case, then Discovery should
>have been spinning around it's long axis, rather than end over end
>in _2010:Odyssey_2_.
>
>Can any of you physics or mechanical engineering majors suggest a
>sequence of events that would have translated the axis of rotation,
>as demonstrated in the movie?

If tidal forces between Jupiter and Io were strong enough to disturb
Discovery's orbit I imagine they could impart a spin.  If one
assumes that one end of the ship (say the one with the flywheel) is
closer to Io than the other end, there will be a torque on the ship.
Since the angular momentum (due to the flywheel) is along the long
axis of the ship, the torque will impart a rotation to the ship
about an axis parallel to the vector from Discovery to Io.  This is
the same effect one gets with precession of a gyroscope on a stand
or the precession of the Earth's axis.

This should be independent of the flywheel deceleration, which
should create another rotation, this one about the long axis.  As
the flywheel slows, the torque from the differential in gravity
should also begin to produce a rotation about the axis perpendicular
to the vector from Discovery to Io and the long axis of the ship.
So, when the flywheel stops relative to the Discovery, the ship will
be executing a complex tumbling motion, not a simple rotation about
one axis.

This is just a qualitative view of the situation based on a few
moments' thought, so it may not be wholly correct.  I could work out
the physics in detail if someone gives me specifics on the mass of
Discovery, the moment of inertia tensor, the angular momentum of the
flywheel, and the ship's orientation relative to Jupiter and Io.  If
someone has estimates on those please e-mail them.  I can use the
practice.

Actually, that third component seems like it should be simple
harmonic oscillation.  I'll think about it.

Brian W. Ogilvie
ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
{hao,uwvax}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 22:35:42 GMT
From: motown!ninja!killer!billw@RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Wisner)
Subject: Re: Hard to get H. Beam Piper

Speaking of H. Beam Piper, there is a "State of the Art" article in
the January issue of Analog magazine about him. Good reading: I, who
have never read anything by Piper (that may change), was quite
interested. Fans probably will want to check it out.

Bill Wisner
{codas,ihnp4}!killer!billw

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 17:31:35 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: Vampire novels

quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale) writes:
> A while ago I read a book by Saberhagen called _The Dracula
> Tapes_.  I seem to recall that it was part of a series. Is this
> correct ? In that case, what are the names of the other books ?

The Saberhagen Dracula books are:

The Dracula Tapes - In the late 1970's, Vlad Dracula finally tells
   his side of the events that happened in 1890 and were recounted
   by Stoker. It is often funny and quite one-sided (like Stoker's
   book). It makes a very good read.

The Holmes-Dracula File - In 1897 Sherlock Holmes becomes involved
   in a case which leads him to confront and eventually aid Dracula
   in stopping the fiendish plot of a few characters Dracula has
   confronted before. Not a great Holmes story, but a lot of fun.

An Old Friend of the Family - Dracula is deposed as leader of the
   world's vampire community. He tries to stop his fellow cursed
   souls from taking control of the human population for breeding
   stock. American relations of Jonathan and Mina Harker are
   threatened leading to the title. My favorite of the group.

Dominion - The strangest of the set. Dracula, who is never named in
   the whole book, works to stop a plot that involves Excalibur and
   a still-living Merlin in present day America. It was very good,
   but I didn't understand everthing that was going on when I read,
   not knowing much about Arthurian legends.

Thorn - This is also supposed to be in the set, but I haven't read
it.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 19:12:18 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Vampire novels

>A while ago I read a book by Saberhagen called _The Dracula Tapes_.
>Yes, that's right, it's the story of Dracula, as seen from his
>viewpoint.  I thought it was very good at the time. (I was 15 or
>16). I seem to recall that it was part of a series. Is this correct
>? In that case, what are the names of the other books ?

The Dracula Tapes is a pretty good book. The other two books in the
series are "The Holmes-Dracula File" in which Drac and Sherlock team
up to save London from the plague, and "An Old Friend of the Family"
in which Drac plays detective. Holmes-Dracula is pretty good. Old
Friend is the weakest fo the three.

A related book is "the Frankenstein Papers" in which Saberhagen
attempts to do for Shelley what he did for Stoker; much less
successfully in my eyes.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 19:09:42 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Vampire novels

> kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
>> quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale)
>> A while ago I read a book by Saberhagen called _The Dracula
>> Tapes_.  [...] what are the names of the other books [...in the
>> series...]?
>The Saberhagen Dracula books are:
>   The Dracula Tapes - [...] Vlad Dracula finally tells his side
>   The Holmes-Dracula File - In 1897 Sherlock Holmes becomes
>   involved An Old Friend of the Family - [...] he tries to stop
>   his fellow[s] Dominion - The strangest of the set.
>   [..involves..] Arthurian legends.  Thorn - This is also supposed
>   to be in the set, but I haven't read it.

I've read it.  Thorn is Vlad's cover identity.  He becomes involved
in the American branch of the Harker family again, so it is easiest
if read after AOFotF.  Vlad discovers that a person he thought long
dead is still alive, and is being persecuted by some nasty bad guys.
He has some obligation to this person, the two of them having been
associated (if I'm remembering rightly) in the 14th century, so he
intervenes, leading to a rather devastating and satisfyingly bloody
conclusion.

On other related topics from other postings:

I find these better than the Rice stuff, though to be honest I
didn't even find the Rice stuff interesting enough to warrant a full
reading, so I may be way off base.

If Chuq didn't like AOFotF, he probably wouldn't like Thorn
either...  they are quite similar, if I'm remembering correctly.
"Dominion" is quite a bit stranger, and might have some interest.

Saying, as Chuq does, that _The_Frankenstein_Papers_ is "much less
successful[]", he is, if anything, understating the case.  Many
trees died unjustly in the printing of this book.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 22:52:59 GMT
From: oleg@quad1.quad.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Subject: Re: Vampire novels

>"The Dracula Tapes" is a pretty good book. The other two books in
>the series are "The Holmes-Dracula File" ... and "An Old Friend of
>the Family"

There was also "Dominion", in which Dracula comes in contact (and
conflict) with a cult (a la Lovecraft) and a Merlin-like magician.
A fair read, not as good as the first 2 books.

Oleg Kiselev
oleg@quad1.quad.com
{psivax|seismo!gould}!quad1!oleg

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  8-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #532
Date:  8 Dec 87 0928-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #532
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  8 Dec 87 0928-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #532
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 8 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 532

Today's Topics:

            Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Boyett (2 msgs) &
                    Frankowski (2 msgs) & McCaffrey (3 msgs) &
                    Pournelle (2 msgs) & E. E. Smith (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 20:40:33 GMT
From: rwl@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Ray Lubinsky)
Subject: Asimovian non-aliens (Re: Review: ROBOT CITY I: ODYSSEY)

ecl@mtgzy.UUCP (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
> and there are non-human alien races, a very non-Asimovian touch.
> All in

As I recall, Asimov intended to include non-humans in the Foundation
series (serialized in Astounding Stories, was it?) but editor John
Campbell nixed the idea.  Campbell himself didn't like stories with
aliens, preferring scenarios which were more strictly extrapolative
than speculative.

Perhaps this did influence Asimov in further writings, but he did
write stories which were exclusively about aliens (like the short
story ``Buy Jupiter'' and the novel _The_Gods_Themselves_).

Is it the case that none of the Robot stories mention aliens?  It's
been a while since I've read them and I haven't kept up with his
latest stuff.

Ray Lubinsky
Department of Computer Science
University of Virginia
UUCP:  ...!uunet!virginia!uvacs!rwl
CSNET: rwl@cs.virginia.edu
BITNET: rwl8y@virginia

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 07:54:05 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l
From: DanehyOakes)
Subject: Larry's questions, and a Basic Library

lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) writes:
>In Robots and Empire or perhaps Robots of Dawn (I just finished
>both in the last month) Daneel and Elijah refer to a visit between
>the two that occured at earth but sounded like was out side of the
>first two novels.  I have not dug out the first two (it has been
>ages since I read them); was the third visit between the two in the
>second novel or is that in a short story somewhere?

That would be "Mirror Image," which was originally published in
ANALOG sometime about 1971-3.  It was collected in the massive THE
COMPLEAT ROBOT, but in none of Asimov's other collections (that I
know of).  TCR is a rip-off, since most of the stories in it were
included in I, ROBOT, THE REST OF THE ROBOTS, or one of the
"general" collections of the '70s and '80s.

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 08:54:54 GMT
From: psuvax1!lll-winken!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Recently Read

srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP             Steven R. Boyett
>After all the mention on the net, I grabbed this when I saw it in
>Half-Price Books in Dallas.  It's an interesting book because it
>hints at various plot - a "regaining the throne" kind of plot - but
>doesn't develop it.  A sequel (if one is forthcoming) will probably
>tell the story of how the throne is regained.

Last I heard, this was the first part of a five-part series.  Sure
hope he gets on with it pretty soon, or it'll be 2030 before we see
the whole thing!

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 19:41:01 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Words Words Words!

gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa (Michael J. Farren) writes:
>srt@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
>>THE ARCHITECT OF SLEEP               Steven R. Boyett
>>After all the mention on the net, I grabbed this when I saw it in
>>Half-Price Books in Dallas.  It's an interesting book because it
>>hints at various plot - a "regaining the throne" kind of plot -
>>but doesn't develop it.  A sequel (if one is forthcoming) will
>>probably tell the story of how the throne is regained.
>
>Last I heard, this was the first part of a five-part series.  Sure
>hope he gets on with it pretty soon, or it'll be 2030 before we see
>the whole thing!

Thanks for the warning, I'll give it a miss.  I've read a number of
mega-epics in the last few years.  The writing varies from good
(Julian May and Zelazny) to bad (Busby and McIntyre) to the
traditional hokum we all love (Heinlein, Asimov, Herbert, and
Hubbard).  One universal truth has emerged: if the writer can't come
up with a plot in the first 300 pages, s/he can't do it in 3000
pages.

Of course, the epic has a traditional place in SF, mainly because
it's too much work for the writer to re-invent the universe with
each new story.  But traditionally SF stories have also stood on
their own and been of interest even to readers who didn't know the
context.  Nowadays, writers like May just lay on the exotic detail
without even trying to tell a story.  I guess a lot of people find
this fascinating, but I find it boring.

Gad, I miss the SF short story!  Not only is it the best form for
doing SF without letting it get out of hand, but it forced writers
to develop some self discipline.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 87 01:07 EST
From: <GILL%QUCDNAST.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Leo Frankowski's time travel novels

     Early last year, I had picked up a very enjoyable time- travel
novel written by Leo Frankowski, titled "The Cross-Time Engineer".
It was a story of a 20th century Polish MIT graduate who falls
asleep in a time machine and wakes up in 13th century Poland.  There
he gets involved with a local count and sets the groundwork for a
miniature industrial revolution.  All of this is to prepare for the
Mongol invasion of 1241 (10 years in the future).  The author has
planned three additional novels to cover the entire time until the
invasion (according to the inside cover).  These have been
tentatively titled

   The High-Tech Knight
   The Radiant Warrior
   The Flying Warlord

     The question I have is, has anyone heard if Leo Frankowski is
writing these three novels, or of any projected publishing date?
"The Cross-Time Engineer" was published in February '86, so plenty
of time has passed.

Arnold
gill@qucdnast

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 20:38:18 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Leo Frankowski's time travel novels

GILL@qucdnast.BITNET writes:
> Engineer".  It was a story of a 20th century Polish MIT graduate
> who falls asleep in a time machine and wakes up in 13th century
> Poland.  There he gets involved with a local count and sets the
> groundwork for a miniature industrial revolution.  All of this is
> to prepare for the Mongol invasion of 1241 (10 years in the
> future).  The author has planned three additional novels to cover

Sounds like a variation of Twain's 'A Connecticut Yankee in King
Arthur's Court.'

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 87 09:28:50 PST
From: dennis@cod.nosc.mil (Dennis Cottel)
Subject: Re: Weyr Search

Is the recently mentioned novella "Weyr Search" in the Oct. 87 issue
of Analog a separate Pern story, or was it expanded into one of the
three mainline Pern novels?

Dennis Cottel
Naval Ocean Systems Center
San Diego, CA  92152
(619) 553-1645
dennis@NOSC.MIL
sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 20:22:07 GMT
From: ames!lams!leadsv!gberg@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Gail Berg)
Subject: Anne McCaffrey's new book "The Coelura"

McCaffrey has created a new and interesting world with a new
structure and a new "thing": coelura (like, crystal, dragons).  The
hierarchical structure with Caverni (plural, Cavernus/Caverna
singular) is interesting.  Her romantic writing really comes
through.

It's written without chapters or any breaks.  It's about 160 pages
in length with numerous illustrations by Ned Dameron.

It's pretty interesting, but for the price unless you are a diehard
fan, wait till the paperback comes out.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 07:15:13 GMT
From: ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey's new book "The Coelura"

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I recall seeing a copy of "The Coelura"
in a university library about three or four years ago.  It was one
of Underwood-Miller's limited editions, probably 1500 copies.

Anyone else know about this?

Brian W. Ogilvie
ogil@sphinx.uchicago.edu
{hao,uwvax}!oddjob!sphinx!ogil

------------------------------

Date: 2 Dec 87 06:23:49 GMT
From: motown!ninja!killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Janissaries III -- _Storms of Victory_

First, there was the book _Janissaries_, by Jerry Pournelle. Which
strengthens my contention that Pournelle or Niven alone are much
better than when together. It was altogether a quite interesting
action-adventure yarn. The premise was a bit forced, but who
cares... we got to see fairly well drawn characters, lots of action,
all that wonderful medieval warfare that Pournelle so much loves,
and consideration of the connections needed to build modern society
(e.g., not being able to build an industrial base without figuring
out some way to raise more food). The latter two are a couple of
Pournelle's pet topics, and probably are the reason for the clumsy
premise. ANYHOW, not artsy or anything, but still a good read for
the kind of person who gets into that kind of thing.

BUT, then, we get a string of sequels. And guess what? The
characters turned to pure cardboard and spend all their time walking
around talking to each other as if they were in downtown
Poughkeepsie, they keep fighting innumerble battls on and on and on
with no relief in sight for the poor reader, and things simply get
downright BOR-ING. If you've ever read Ursula Le Guin's essay "From
Elfland to Poughkeepsie", you might know what I mean... sorry, the
magic gone, it just ain't there no more.
  The main problem, I think, is that Jerry Pournelle did not
actually write these sequels. He provided a plot outline and
character summary to Roland Green, who then filled it all in with
his wordy prose that might work well in a psychological novel but
certainly not in an action-adventure flick. And no matter how good
of a character summary that Jerry gave Roland, Roland still doesn't
know near as much about the characters as Jerry did... for example,
in one of my stories I have a character named "Jeanne", ask me a
question, like what did she do at 4pm on January 4 of two years ago,
and I can tell you.  After all, I made her, I know how she thinks, I
know how she lives, I know what she'd be doing then. No matter how
good the summary, you can't really give an outsider a clear picture
of this person's hopes and wishes and dreams, short of writing a
novel (which was the whole point in the first place!).
  Anyhow, it's beginning to look like this series is going to drag
on forever (although Jerry brought in things that imply that the
next one is going to be the last), and if you was thinking of buying
it, forget it. I'm glad I didn't -- I checked it out of the library.

Note: I haven't the foggiest idea where this book would rank on
Chuq's ratings scale, but I'm positive it's in the lower half -- no
"above average" here!

Eric Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 15:55:09 GMT
From: mcnc!decvax!chaos!uokmax!jarockle@RUTGERS.EDU (Jack Albert
From: Rockley Jr)
Subject: Re: Janissaries III -- _Storms of Victory_

Is "Janissaries III" out in paperback yet?  I don't buy hardbacks,
and I have been looking for it in paperback.  Haven't seen it around
this area yet.

Jack Jr.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 87 16:22:45 PLT
From: Andrew Vaught <29284843%WSUVM1.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
Subject: E.E. Smith -- Lensman series

Right now I'm about halfway through E.E. "Doc" Smith's lensman
series.  This is an absolute classic space opera, which I recommend.
The science is somewhat dated (they use the "ether" of space a lot,
a theory currently out of style), but the characters, plots are
great. Any comments from netland?

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 05:04:01 GMT
From: res@ihlpe.att.com (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T-C/IS (IW); formerly)
Subject: Re: E.E. Smith -- Lensman series

29284843@wsuvm1.BITNET (Andrew Vaught) writes:
> Right now I'm about halfway through E.E. "Doc" Smith's lensman
> series.  This is an absolute classic space opera, which I
> recommend. The science is somewhat dated (they use the "ether" of
> space a lot, a theory currently out of style), but the characters,
> plots are great. Any comments from netland?

I heartily concur!!!!!

Also, "Doc" Smith wrote two other series which I read many, many
years ago.  One was the "Skylark of Valeron" (????) series.  I have
forgotten what the other was (it was MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANY years ago,
and I do not have my SF library here in my office!).  "Doc" Smith's
style of writing is fun to read, and the "future" culture in his
books gives an interesting insight into the society of his own era,
as well as the science of his era.  If you can find these books, put
your brain into neutral and read them for fun, as well as for an
idea of how far GOOD SF has come.

Rich Strebendt
ihnp4![iwsl6|ihlpe|ihaxa]!res

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 15:29:22 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Re: E.E. Smith -- Lensman series

29284843@wsuvm1.BITNET (Andrew Vaught) writes:
>Right now I'm about halfway through E.E. "Doc" Smith's lensman
>series.  This is an absolute classic space opera, which I
>recommend. The science is somewhat dated (they use the "ether" of
>space a lot, a theory currently out of style), but the characters,
>plots are great. Any comments from netland?

   There is a movie based on this series, called (surprisingly
enough) _Lensman_.  It's a Japanese animation movie and there are
sequences in which computer graphics were used.  I myself haven't
seen the movie, though have seen the T.V. series.  I'm sure the
movie is better than the T.V. series, and the episodes on T.V
weren't that bad at all.

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 05:54:30 GMT
From: leech@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech)
Subject: Re: E.E. Smith -- Lensman series

hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) writes:
>   There is a movie based on this series, called (surprisingly
>enough) _Lensman_.

    VERY loosely based. Yes, there is a Lens. That's about the only
thing in common with the books.

Jon Leech
leech@cs.unc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 01:26:24 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60aC)
Subject: Re: E.E. Smith -- Lensman series

Andrew Vaught writes:
>Right now I'm about halfway through E.E. "Doc" Smith's lensman
>series.  This is an absolute classic space opera, which I
>recommend. The science is somewhat dated (they use the "ether" of
>space a lot, a theory currently out of style), but the characters,
>plots are great. Any comments from netland?

You may not like the last of the books, _Masters of the Vortex_.  It
has a different cast of charaters and was written some time after
the rest.  Smith introduces a new metaphysics (with nonlens-aided
telepathy and a different "elder race").  MotV should not have been
placed in the lensman universe; it just clutters it up.

The rest are so similar as to be almost the same book.  The best of
them is _Galactic Patrol_ which was written first, even though it is
3rd in internal chronology.  The others are stamped out with the
same cooky-cutter mold (Smith even does a self-parody of this by
having K.K. write a space opera).

If you really like the Lensman books, try reading the Skylark books
(also by Smith).

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #533
Date:  9 Dec 87 0921-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #533
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 87 0921-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #533
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 533

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (9 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 87 11:16 EST
From: Traveller <Traveller@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Some Reactions (Reversible and Irreversible) to ST:TNG

>Never mind the Romulans, where are the Vulcans?  Best alien race
>this side of !Tangland, provided they stay out of Fortune Cookie
>mode.  Are Nimoy and Alley the only actors in the universe who can
>arch an eyebrow dryly?  A cutsie robot Pinnochio is no substitute.

Agreed, on the lack of "real" aliens. The Ferengi are pale
substitutes for standins for next-door-neighbors of the kind of
aliens in the original series.  I was expecting them to be twice as
dangerous as the Klingons were, sort of the "next step up" in
confrontational development for the series.

Disagreed, at least partly, about Data. As far as I can see, Data is
as close to the original, mature, head-on-straight humor of the
original series as ST:TNG has gotten. That bit about Pinocchio is
just the writers trying to muck up his character. They've done in
all the human characters already.  They just can't find enough muck
to sling at Artificial Intelligence, is all.

>I forgot to mention Riker's gifts to the bridge crew. When Dr.
>Crusher & Wesley started leaving the bridge I thought that Riker
>was going to bring back their husband/father. I don't understand
>why Worf didn't accept the Klingon woman, since in the episode
>JUSTICE he told Riker he'd need a Klingon woman for sex since human
>women were too fragile. And why should Data want to be human? He
>has mostly advantages the way he is now. In the episode THE NAKED
>NOW when LaForge took off his visor and asked Yar to help him see,
>Troi said it was unusual because he had never expressed a desire
>for normal vision before. And isn't it interesting that LaForge
>then chose Yar, and now complemented her on her beauty?

This was sick. Sick sick (sic) sick. If this had been real Star
Trek, when Riker suggested that he should give his friends something
they all really wanted, he should have whipped around and banished Q
for good.  Instead, we are treated to one more boring, tedious,
ultimately UKKKK!!!  portrayal of the hackneyed theme of "power
corrupts".

Why should power always corrupt? Sufficient power, in the right
hands, (and I thought Riker's were the right hands until the writers
stuffed that completely unbelieveable holier-than-thou attitude into
his character) could simply dictate that it should never use its
power for harmful ends.  If you're vague enough about reality to
specify total power, you can be just as vague and specify total
control and correct application of that power, as niggly as the
details become when you treat things on a case-by-case basis.

>My favorite part of this episode is that they finally got rid of
>that nerd Q.

Get rid of him? Have you been watching the show lately? He'll be
back for a rematch before you can say his name!

(I won't bother to mention that next week's show is a repeat of the
pilot episode.)

>I didn't like the fact mentioned that humans defeated the Klingons
>in the war, I had hoped that they would have made peace.

Double Double Plus Agreement here! The Klingon Empire was an EMPIRE,
of comparable size to the Federation. To say that they have given up
everything they once controlled and are now merely "members" of the
Federation is unbelievable. I can hack Klingons and humans making
peace in 75 years. I can't hack the Klingons rolling over and
placing themselves under Federation control in that amount of time.

>Re: Shuttlecraft in 'Lonely Among Us'
>I believe that that was a goof.  The shuttle was a STTOS design.
>If she were the _Gallileo_ (From 'The Gallileo Seven'), the
>designation would have read 'NCC 1701/7'.

The shuttlecraft, I read in Starlog, was the one prop salvaged from
the original series. Which is suggestive of the show's obvious
faithfulness to the theme, content, style, execution, and overall
quality of the original series.

>2) where the evolution of the people was stagnating i.e. the people
>were being ruled by (a) machine(s)

What's so terrible about machine rule? Given sufficiently complex
and intelligent machines, it would be ridiculous to think that they
would rule inhumanely.  They would rule inHUMANly, but not
inhumanely, an important distinction to keep in mind.  I mind "The
Apple" from the original series, one example of a show in which
taking a race of people away from the control of machines is seen as
possibly less than smart.  Kirk & Co. had a reason though. If they
didn't zap Vaal, NCC-1701 would have been toast!

>>Quoth the Captain: "Don't they teach you about tractor beam
>>conservation?"  Well, back in the old days, they used to call it
>>conservation of momentum.  But maybe it's the headache.

>I think he means "conservation of the energy expended in keeping
>the tractor beam on" not "conservation of momentum will keep the
>other ship alongside us even with the beam off."

>I thought that this little piece of dialogue was particularly
>insulting to the audience, however.

Don't be silly. The writers don't KNOW there's a living, breathing
audience out here who has to watch the drivel they turn out.  Why
they haven't added an all-powerful wizard (other than Q!)  and an
warp-drive, shape-changing alchemist to the bridge crew yet is
beyond me.

>Did this bother anyone else?

... ahem...       ---***@!!! Y E S !!!@***---     ... ahem, thank you.

>If I heard right, the USS Stargazer was a Constellation Class ship
>(as was the original Enterprise - right?).  But unlike the original
>Enterprise, the Stargazer had 4 engines/pods.  Did I hear wrong, or
>is there a more general definition of class?  (Or does it depend on
>which set is used for the bridge shots?)

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Too bad for us that
the writers on ST:TNG have such swelled heads.

>I may be mistaken, but in "Hide and Q", is that the first time we
>ever see a Klingon female?

You are. "Day Of The Dove" from the original series featured a
Klingon woman. A much better character in my view. Back then, the
Klingons were beings, not just stage props for the latest moral
stand the writers want to take.

Which brings up something I'd like to add. Does anyone else feel the
new series is trying to be too pedantic? Are they drowning us in
moral decisions, indecisions, and errors? Are the crew spending so
much time thinking about what they should, should not, should maybe,
should never, and should always do that they have to rush around in
the last five minutes of the show to get anything done at all?

Or am I just a crass action/adventure fan?

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 15:44:05 GMT
From: uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: New story editor for STTNG

My sources say STTNG has a new story editor.  He/she (I'm not sure
which is appropriate) is Tracy Torme, writer of the episode "Haven"
and one other this season.  I assume the change was made after
shooting wrapped for the first season, but maybe not.  The info is
third hand, but the source is good.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 20:06:09 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: ST-TNG Antisemitic?

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi are
>obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?

I suppose you're referring to the way the F are always grasping
after a buck.  ("Ffffor fffree?  Ob-ssssene!")  The sermon here
isn't against Jews, it's against capitalism.  How do I know?
Because the first Ferrengi episode said so, in quite a heavy handed
way.  ("They most resemble 18th century Yankee traders" and a dozen
similar lines.)

Come to think of it, a lot of the sermonizing in ST:TNG is aimed at
Reagan-era politics.  In addition to the F (who are supposedly
"unevolved" because they put Making a Buck ahead of Social
Responsibility), you have lines like, "Believe it or not, some
primitive cultures actually go to war over differences in economic
systems!" (translation: if the Russians wanna be commies, it's not
our business) and "Such weapons in the hands of people who aren't
ready for them is all you need to destroy a planet!"  (translation:
stop the arms race before it stops us).

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 20:18:52 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - Awful Jewish Aliens

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (The Chameleon) writes:
>On the other hand, while being greedy and so forth are associated
>with anti-Semitic stereotypes, they aren't _only_ so associated.
>Was Dickens being anti-Semitic by writing about Scrooge in A
>Christmas Carol?  Scrooge was no more Jewish than the Ferrengi, but
>he did have the requisite characteristics from the point of view of
>an anti-Semite.

Poor choice of writers: Dickens was quite antisemitic, as his
portrayal of Fagin and other Jews in "Oliver Twist" shows.  The
difference is that the Victorian stereotype of the Jew wasn't the
Selfish, Greedy Wheeler- Dealer now current, it was the Ruthless
Petty Criminal, rather like the stereotype Black Hustler on so many
cop shows.

>In any case, I'd be surprised if Star Trek was intentionally
>supporting any racial/ethnic/religious stereotypes blatantly.  It
>tends to bend over backwards the other way.  (Mr Riker, scanners
>report a moral off the starboard bow!  Take evasive action!)

Captain, we should return fire with all the Cliche Banks!  Someone
in the audience might not get the point yet!

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 23:26:28 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

Mr. Throop, I agree entirely with you on this topic.

In this context I should mention that this week's episode, which
I'll call "Amok Zoid" because I didn't catch the title, presented
aliens who were not stereotyped but were quite as diverse in
personality as humans.  It was in my view the best episode of the
new season.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Subject: ST:TNG
From: BARBER%PORTLAND.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU (Wayne Barber)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 87 08:36:27 EST

ST602397@Brownvm.Bitnet (Atol Butte) asked why prefix codes were not
used in "The Battle" as they were in ST2.  The answer is simple.
Khan had the radio link set up for direct transmission to the
Reliant's computer.  He was expecting a simple data transmission.
On the Star Gazer, Picard had not set up for that type of direct
data transmission so the prefix codes were not usable.

Another possibility is that the records for the prefix codes are not
kept nine years.  And prefix codes can probably be changed easily.

MSS2@Sphinx.Uchicago.Edu (The Chameleon) talks about the problems in
the same episode with sloppy writing.  Two characters (the two
starship captains) beamed through raised shields.  When Riker was
told Picard was on the Star Gazer, the person who said so (I don't
remember who) also said that the shields were up so we can't beam
him back.  This is not the frst time TNG has screwed up with the
transporter.  In the first episode, Encounter at Farpoint, when the
alien "ship" shows up they attempt to scan the ship with no luck.
Their scanners could not penetrate the "hull".  So what do they do?
Send the Away Team.  Think about it; they sent the Away Team into a
ship without knowing where the open spaces were.

These are the only two episodes I've seen, and I've liked most of
what I've seen.  Now that the characters are getting better, they
should also concentrate on using the technology consistently.

Wayne Barber
Barber@Portland.Bitnet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 87 10:10:00 EST
From: Atul Butte <ST602397%BROWNVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Transporters with Shields

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (The Chameleon) writes:

> The real question is this: Picard beams on board the Stargazer.
> The Ferrengi captain says "Shields up."  gloats a while, then
> beams out _without lowering the shields_.  Picard tries to attack
> the Enterprise, says "Shields up" again.  Riker convinces him to
> come to his senses, and then they beam him back to the Enterprise.
> Again, this is without lowering the shields.  Why are the shields
> raised twice and never lowered, yet this does not interfere with
> the transporters except where the plot calls for it?

My turn.  In _Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise_ it is mentioned
that the new NCC-1701A (the new Enterprise) CAN use transporters
with shields.  This is accomplished by taking all the output from
all the transporters and channelling it through a very narrow break
in the shields.  All the transporters can thus be used with shields.

Atul Butte
ST602397@BROWNVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 87 13:33 EST
From: <GILL%QUCDNAST.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: General ST:TNG

     I am having difficulties understanding why everyone seems to be
Wesley-bashing.  A similar situation exists at my institution where
we have an ongoing Star Trek discussion.  Now I'll admit that he is
a bit of a twerp at times, but one also has to remember that he is a
genius that has been forced to keep his talents occupied with little
science projects and little more.  He is inquisitive, and he knows
that he can handle things as well as most of the crew.  He also has
little to no discipline, not yet having gone to the Academy.  In
other words, he is a typical teenager!  Get off his case and let him
grow up!  Don't expect miracles in 13 weeks!

     As I was writing about the Academy above, I got to thinking,
"Why isn't he in the Academy yet?"  In The Wrath Of Khan, Peter
Preston looked little over 15, yet he was already on a training
cruise.  Actually, according to the novelisations, he was only 14
years old.  I guess that has changed in the meantime.  It is not
good publicity when Star Fleet allows 14-16 year old cadets to get
killed off, even accidentally.

     If you are unhappy with the way the show is progressing, I
suggest writing to Gene Roddenberry and letting him know.  You may
not get a reply, but it will be read.

    Someone earlier had mentioned a return of Spock, since the
typical Vulcan lifespan is of the order of 250 years.  Well, good
ol' GR has been informed of this over two months ago by myself.  I
got back an answer that basically stated that it was not in the
cards for this season, but that if things were going very well,
anything was possible in the second season.

Arnold Gill
Queen's University at Kingston

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 21:00:47 GMT
From: mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
>My turn.  In _Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise_ it is mentioned
>that the new NCC-1701A (the new Enterprise) CAN use transporters
>with shields.  This is accomplished by taking all the output from
>all the transporters and channelling it through a very narrow break
>in the shields.  All the transporters can thus be used with
>shields.

I haven't read the book, but from the way you describe it, this
indicates that the 1701A can use its _own_ transporters through its
shields.  It doesn't mean that another ship can beam things in and
out.  This is probably a good thing; you wouldn't want the villain
of the week beaming the Captain out or sending a photon torpedo into
the engine room.  In any case, during "The Battle", I believe Riker
stated that he couldn't beam through the _Stargazer_'s shields.  If
he could have, he could have just retrieved Picard and dealt with
the _Stargazer_ however he wanted.  So there is still the problem of
a) how did the Ferrengi beam out and b) why were the shields raised
two or three times and never lowered?

Of course, someone has already answered the question: the writers
were sloppy.

Mike

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #534
Date:  9 Dec 87 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #534
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 87 1005-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #534
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 534

Today's Topics:

         Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Bishop & Brin (4 msgs) &
                 Ford (2 msgs) & Frankowski (2 msgs) &
                 Gibson & Hubbard & King & Martin &
                 Cyberpunk & Title Correction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 87 16:55:41 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Asimov questions

gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry W. Virden) writes:
>   In Robots and Empire or perhaps Robots of Dawn (I just finished
>both in the last month) Daneel and Elijah refer to a visit between
>the two that occured at earth but sounded like was outside of the
>first two novels.  I have not dug out the first two (it has been
>ages since I read them); was the third visit between the two in the
>second novel or is that in a short story somewhere?

It was a short story. A theory had been stolen by one of two
scientists on a ship that was passing close to Earth, and since
Daneel was on board, he suggested that they go see Elijah.  Elijah
solved the problem. Case closed.  Interesting story, but I won't
give a spoiler now.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 87 11:33:06 MEZ
From: Carsten Zimmer <OR776%DBNUOR1.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Asimov

Larry W. Virden wrote:
>   In Robots and Empire or perhaps Robots of Dawn (I just finished
>both in the last month) Daneel and Elijah refer to a visit between
>the two that occured at earth but sounded like was outside of the
>first two novels.  I have not dug out the first two (it has been
>ages since I read them); was the third visit between the two in the
>second novel or is that in a short story somewhere?

When I remember right the first meeting between Daneel and Elijah
taked place in 'the caves of steel', then there is a meeting in a
short story with the name 'mirror image' or so and possibly a third
in 'the naked sun' (here I'm not sure, I hadn't read it).  In
'Robots and Empire' Elijah was already dead, but his descendant
talks to Gladia about a last meeting between Elijah and Daneel in
the last minutes of Elijah's life.

Carsten Zimmer

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 19:27:55 GMT
From: fth6j@uvacs.cs.virginia.edu (Frank T. Hollander)
Subject: THE SECRET ASCENSION, by Michael Bishop

This is a don't-miss book for Philip K. Dick fans.  It is available
from Tor in hardback, and is a great tribute to PKD.  I don't see a
need to say anything else, or to attempt to convert the unbelievers.

Frank Hollander

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 04:16:09 GMT
From: ames!oliveb!sci!daver@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Sundiver, needles

I finally got around to reading Sundiver.  I've got some questions.
Our hero lost his girl friend while fighting on top of some balloons
near the Needles.  So, what are the needles?  There are two of them,
the Chocolate and Vanilla Needles.  They are apparently at least 20
miles high.  Balloons are an integral part of their operation (I
think).  They have something to do with space travel (I think).
They are an impressive enough engineering feat to impress the
Galactics.  Brin might have mentioned something else about them in
the book, but i don't remember it right off hand.  Anyway, what are
they and what are they good for?  I was thinking at first that they
were some sort of beanstalk, but that doesn't seem likely.  Are they
just some sort of tall buildings that stick out of most of the
atmosphere?  That doesn't seem very helpful.

david rickel
decwrl!sci!daver

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 23:27:02 GMT
From: stuart@cs.rochester.edu (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Sundiver, needles

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
> I finally got around to reading Sundiver.  I've got some
> questions.  Our hero lost his girl friend while fighting on top of
> some balloons near the Needles.  So, what are the needles?

While I don't have everything Brin has ever written, I feel safe in
saying that he has never published a story describing the Needles in
more detail , especially not the story alluded to in Sundiver where
Jake Denwa (sp?) foiled some kind of sabotage and lost his wife/SO.

It was my impression from their geographic location and some even
less definitive data that the Needles *were* associated with some
sort of beanstalk or skyhook.  They clearly extend above most of the
atmosphere, even if they don't reach to useful orbital altitudes.

By the way, what did you think of the *murals* painted on the
inside?  Talk about art on a large scale ...

Stu Friedberg
{ames,cmcl2,rutgers}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 21:58:59 GMT
From: ccdbryan@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Bryan McDoanld)
Subject: Re: Sundiver, needles

daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>I finally got around to reading Sundiver.  I've got some questions.
>Our hero lost his girl friend while fighting on top of some
>balloons near the Needles.  So, what are the needles?  There are
>two of them, the Chocolate and Vanilla Needles.  They are
>apparently at least 20 miles high.  Balloons are an integral part
>of their operation (I think).  They have something to

Well, from what I remember of them, they were used to move
people/cargo/ anything else from the surface of Earth to low orbit
altitudes, thus eliminating the need to escape the gravity well by
our more mudane means.  Obviously, the Galactics had no need of
systems like this as they had ready made ship drives that did the
job for them.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 02:55:37 GMT
From: sdcsvax!jack!sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: Sundiver, needles



The needles in Sundiver seemed to be towers that reached up to the
edge of the atmosphere, with sea-level pressure inside of them.
Presumably they were sealed at the top.  A spaceship would be
attached to a balloon, and then the balloon would hoist it to the
top.

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!man,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
man!sdeggo!dave@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 87 12:08:18 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: re: How Much For Just the Planet

ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.UK   asks:
>Am I the only one to have found "How Much For Just the Planet"
>disappointing?

Well, I bought it as a result of the discussion on the net, and was
_extremely_ disappointed. (I sent in an earlier message about it
that somehow did not wind up in a digest.) As a result of further
discussion on the net, I have reached the conclusion that it is
strictly a Trekker/Trekkie insider book, and should be avoided by
_All Others_.

I still contend that the premise that the heads of two diplomatic
envoys to a planet would involve themselves in the affairs :-) of
two lovesick teenagers is patently ridiculous and downright
insulting of the reader's intelligence.

As I sit here in Washington, DC, with Gorbachev present and this
entire city in an uproar, I can just picture our beloved members of
the press getting their paws on such a story: "Secretary General &
Mrs Gorbachev were found with the President & Mrs Reagan in various
states of undress and dishevelment due to having attempted to
convince..."

AARGH. Can't even contemplate anything so silly as what Kirk agreed
to do.  Worse yet, Spock went along without even _one_ of his
characteristic demurrals.

Nuff said.

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 87 16:44:44 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: HMfJtP?

I was just re-reading Duane+Morwood's THE ROMULAN WAY.  In it, there
was a line about certain Federation diplomats kicking themselves
after finding out that just inside the Neutral Zone was a planet as
rich in dilithium as Direidi (or almost as rich).  I'm assuming that
they knew about Ford's book and asked if they could use the
name--anybody know for sure?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 19:18:24 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: Leo Frankowski's time travel novels

mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Mike J) writes:
> GILL@qucdnast.BITNET writes:
>> Engineer".  It was a story of a 20th century Polish MIT graduate
>> who falls asleep in a time machine and wakes up in 13th century
>> Poland.  There he gets involved with a local count and sets the
>> groundwork for a miniature industrial revolution.  All of this is
>> to prepare for the Mongol invasion of 1241 (10 years in the
>> future).  The author has planned three additional novels to cover

*When* is Frankowski going to follow up "The Cross-Time Engineer"
with his planned sequels?  The next is supposed to be "The High-Tech
Knight", and I'd think that two years would be enough time to get it
out...  but maybe he got distracted with "Copernick's Revolution" (I
think it was called) and lost interest in the Pole.

> Sounds like a variation of Twain's 'A Connecticut Yankee in King
> Arthur's Court.'

Yeah, but having just reread Twain, I like Frankowski's better.
Maybe that's because we've been flooded with Arthurian-period stuff
to excess of late, and very little on 15th-century Poland.  I won't
say that Frankowski has written Great Literature, but it did get me
intersted enough to start reading up on Eastern European history.

seh

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 23:56:46 GMT
From: rodgin@hpccc.hp.com (Lisa Rodgin)
Subject: Re: Leo Frankowski's time travel novels

I really liked "The Cross-time Engineer" too! The only clue I have
is that I read an interview in the Mensa publication many months ago
(maybe as long ago as a year) with Leo Frankowski, in which he said
that he hadn't begun writing the sequel yet, and he wasn't planning
to until he got some groupies...(don't look at me...he sounded liked
a fairly strange person).

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 19:25:41 GMT
From: dfc@hpindda.hp.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: NEUROMANCER Awakening

Okay, I've resisted it for a couple of years now - reading
NEUROMANCER, that is. I'd read several short stories set in one or
another cyberpunk universe, and they're the most depressing places I
can imagine. Who needs a whole novel of that sh*t? I'd rather feel
good about things...

But last week a friend of mine whose writing I really enjoy (he's
made several professional SF sales) was aghast I'd never read it. He
immediately ran to his library and returned with his copy; insisted
that I give it a try. So, I'm doing so now; about 100 pages so far
(in two furious, obsessed hours).

We were both right. It IS the most depressing place imaginable.

But, my God, what incredible writing...

Don Coolidge
hplabs!hpda!hpindda!dfc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 87 23:33 EST
From: The Priest <V079GUVN%ubvms.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: L. Ron Hubbard's _Mission Earth_

   I have recently finished reading L. Ron Hubbard's dekalogy (sp?)
_Mission Earth_, and thought it was very funny.
   One reference I don't quite understand : I.G. Barben
Pharmaceuticals.
   I also thought the ending was disapointing. Anybody else read
this, or feel this way?

V079GUVN @ UBVMSC.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 16:21:34 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: The (Original) Stand

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>I heard today that the original text written by Stephen King will
>>be printed by 1990.  It is an additional 200 pages which was
>>ommitted because the publisher thought that the book would not
>>sell with the addtl. pages.  Anybody else heard about this?

I feel obligated at this point to mention that three of my closest
friends all are looking forward to this volume. One, who is working
on her dissertation on 17th Century English, just re-read it a week
ago, and told me in some fair detail about events that she expects
to be covered in the missing sections. At least one of these friends
thinks that it is King's best, and a damn good book to boot (cheap
shots, stay your hand), and all have recommended it to me as "the
Stephen King book you'd most like, Kevin."

Also, I'm trying to arrange to get a copy of the original,
as-submitted-to -the-publisher manuscript for _IT_, which is about
60% longer than the published version. We've got a source, but
photocopying alone would cost over $100! (Anyone with excess wealth
just lying around is encouraged to contact me about charitable
contributions.)

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 87 11:14:11 PST
From: Hibbert.pa@Xerox.COM
Cc: mit-eddie!ulowell!cg-atla!hunt@RUTGERS.EDU (Walter Hunt X7031)
Subject: Re: Favorite Books

>   levin, ira.  this perfect day. (1973) marx, wu, wood and wei /
>brought us to this perfect day.  a sort of anti-utopia set in a
>future without individualism.

I've always wondered about the origin of the names in Levin's rhyme.
Who are Wood and Wei?  And how did Wu get in here?  My copy of the
book lists the rhyme as:

   Christ, Marx, Wood, and Wei
   Led us to this perfect day.
   Marx, Wood, Wei and Christ;
   All but Wei were sacrificed.
   Wood, Wei, Christ, and Marx
   Gave us lovely schools and parks.
   Wei, Christ, Marx, and Wood
   Made us humble, made us good.

Is this something Levin made up for the book, or is it a
commonly-recited child's rhyme as his citation indicates?

Incidently, for those collecting "first science fiction" lists, this
is probably the first science fiction I ever read (It was one of the
choices for a high school reading assignment).  I re-read it a few
months ago, and I liked it just as much this time around.

Chris

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 09:49:08 GMT
From: iuvax!bsu-cs!crusader@RUTGERS.EDU (Erick L. King)
Subject: George R.R. Martin

   Speaking of Mr. Martin, has anyone else read his mosaic novel
series?  The first is called "Wild Cards" this is one of the best
series I've read in a long time....

Erick L. King
8408 N. Glacier Dr.
Muncie In. 47303
UUCP: crusader@bsu-cs.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 08:33:40 GMT
From: DrOdd@cup.portal.com
Subject: Cyberpunk references

So you want Cyberpunk references? Check this out:

Neuromancer - William Gibson
Count Zero -            "
Mona Lisa Overdrive -   "  (coming out next year)
Burning Chrome  -       "  (short stories)
Mirrorshades:The Cyberpunk Anthology - Bruce Sterling, ed
Hardwired - Walter Jon Williams
Voice of the Whirlwind - "
The Artificial Kid - Bruce Sterling
Shockwave Rider - John Brunner
Vaccum Flowers - Michael Swanwick
Dr. Adder - J.K. Jeter
Software - Rudy Rucker
Eclipse - John Shirley (just out in paperback)
Little Heroes - Norman Spinard (currently in hardback)

Not all of those are "pure" Cyberpunk, as measured by the standards
of "Neuromancer", but all have very strong elements of Cyberpunk in
them.  I would be delighted to hear more suggestions.

In the mean time everybody interested in Cyberpunk may be interested
in Cyberpunk International, a vague organization which puts out a
newsletter called The Screamsheet, and in general tries to get
Cyberpunks together.  For more information, write to Dr.  Odd, P.O.
Box 2187, Sunnyvale, CA, 94087.  Give it a little time to get there,
if you will.

Any Cyberpunk E-mail most welcome.

Referentially yours

DrOdd@cup.portal.com
...{ucbvax,decwrl,decvax,seismo,hplabs}!sun!cup.portal.com!DrOdd

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 16:59:39 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Re: Time Tunnel (book)

    This is just a quibble, really, but the book you are describing
was not entitled _Time_Tunnel_, it was entitled
_The_Tunnel_Through_Time_ (I still have my copy of the book).

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard - Portable Computer Div.
1000 NE Circle Blvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line:  9-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #535
Date:  9 Dec 87 1023-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #535
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Dec 87 1023-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #535
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 9 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 535

Today's Topics:

                   Television - Old SF (7 msgs) &
                                Captain Power (2 msgs) &
                                Blake's 7 (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Dec 87 17:10:39 GMT
From: cmcl2!phri!bc-cis!john@RUTGERS.EDU (John L. Wynstra)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>   I don't know if that many of you are old enough to remember
>these.  If you remember Howdy Doody you might.

   Yes, I'm of the Howdy Doody generation.  And I *do* remember
Science Fiction Theatre, but only the opening intro's by the bald
guy, the musical score, and the panorama of testtubes.  It would be
nice to see it again in syndication.  BTW here in NYC they're doing
the fifties TV Superman again (George Reeves, Noel Neill, quick: who
was the original Lois Lane?) on ch 9 Saturday mornings (9am).

>  and a half hour Flash Gordon (no not with Buster Crabbe) a
>definite TV series with Dale and Dr. Zarkov. I remember Flash
>always wore a T Shirt and every body had Stun guns which "froze"
>people no matter how outlandish or how unstable their posture.

   Aha!  There was a Flash Gordon TV show?  Did it have any of the
actors from the '30s serials in it?

   On Buster Crabbe: I believe he starred in a TV series featuring
the French Foriegn Legion (and I think he had kid sidekick).

   'Fraid this just about plumbs the limits of my memory bank,
folks.

John L. Wynstra
Apt. 9G
43-10 Kissena Blvd.
Flushing, N.Y., 11355
john@bc-cis.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 04:31:00 GMT
From: uiucdcs!ccvaxa!kcollett@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP writes:
>> UFO : Was this the one with a base on the moon when alien saucers
>>       with lasers battles Earth "vipers" firing missiles?
>The commander (Straker) 's office was disguised as that of a movie
>producer, but the whole room would sink like an elevator, into the
>underground headquarters of "SHADO," whatever THAT acronym stood
>for (next volunteer, please).

OK, I'll bite: Supreme Headquarters -- Alien Defense Organization

Gould/CSD
Urbana
kcollett@gswd-vms
ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!kcollett

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 17:41:39 GMT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa (Jerome Freedman)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

john@bc-cis.UUCP (John L. Wynstra) writes:
>jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>>  and a half hour Flash Gordon (no not with Buster Crabbe) a
>>definite TV series with Dale and Dr. Zarkov. I remember Flash
>>always wore a T Shirt and every body had Stun guns which "froze"
>>people no matter how outlandish or how unstable their posture.
>
>   Aha!  There was a Flash Gordon TV show?  Did it have any of the
>actors from the '30s serials in it?

 The show I refer to had no one memorable - it was definitely a half
hour produced for TV show no connection at all with the movie
serial.

  I also forgot to mention
  Rocky Jones:
  I don't remember much about it but I saw "Airplane" - the funny
one- this weekend and one of the secondary actors in the control
tower was a regular.

  Commander Cody:
  Remember everybody flying around with rockets on thier backs

  Gene Autry:
   Fought people from under the Earth every Saturday morning

  Captain Midnight : Not exactly SF but lots of fun

Jerry Freedman, Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa
(617)271-4563

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 87 13:01:49 PST
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
Subject: More on Obscure TV SF!!!!

Various comments:

Re: Beauty and the Beast.  My schedule hasn't let me see much of
this, but what I have seen I've REALLY been impressed by.  Vincent's
makeup is absolutely marvellous, and the rest of the series is well
thought out and well written.  I hope they keep it up!!!

Re: Far Out Space Nuts.  Someone couldn't remember the title of this
silly thing with Bob Denver and Chuck McCann.... Pretty mindless,
but fun to watch.

Re: Land of the Lost.  I rather forgot about LOTL, but now that a
number of people reminded me, I have to say that some episodes were
excellent, while others were pretty dismal.  In my opinion, the
worst episodes were toward the end of the series, generally.

Re: Dr. Shrinker.  Egad!!  I haven't thought about THAT one in
ages!! 'Dr. Shrinker, Dr. Shrinker, he's a madman with an evil
mind....'

How about:
Sigmund and the Sea Monsters
Wonder Bug
Magic Mongo
Liddsville
H.R. Puffnstuf
...and other wonderful Sid & Marty Krofft bizarreness??

Re: Electrawoman and Dynagirl.  The point is it was SUPPOSED to be
bad!!  It was a parody of Batman, and since Batman was camp to the
max anyway, EW&DG became utterly outRAGEous!!  I loved it!!!  The
episode that I remember best is the one with GlitterRock trying to
launch a satellite that will allow him to transmit his
mind-destroying music all 'round the world....  and then there's the
episode with the Empress of Evil...  and the Pharoah.....  Such
MEMORIES!!!!

Re: Lost Saucer.   Another one I loved!!!!

Re: Quark.  There was only a part of a season of this, but after the
pilot they made a few cast changes, adding Ficus and (as I murkily
recall) getting rid of the mad scientist, or some other character.

Re: The Phoenix.  I have 4 of the episodes of this on video tape.
If anyone else has more, ESPECIALLY the pilot (which I NEVER saw!!),
I would VERY much like to hear from you!!!!!  (BTW, it's Bennu, not
Benu.)  The thing I particularly liked about 'The Phoenix' is the
way they gave us a character who was 'special' but who wasn't
superhuman.  A lot of time on 'The 6 Million Dollar Man' and 'The
Bionic Woman' was spent re- humanizing the characters after giving
them these incredible abilities.

Re: Salvage 1.  Kind of a silly premise... a junk man on the moon??
But the first couple of shows DID have some neat stories.

Re: The Fantastic Journey.  Boy, did THIS one succumb to the
Formularity Disease with incredible rapidity; still, I wish I had at
least the pilot movie, and perhaps the first half of the episodes on
tape; they were fairly well done.

Re: Ark II.  I would kill for videotapes of this.  And now, to quote
from the opening narration....
"For millions of years, Earth was fertile and rich; then pollution
and waste began to take their toll.  Civilization fell into ruins.
This is the world of the 25th Century.  Only a handful of scientists
remain, men {sic} who have vowed to rebuild what has been destroyed.
This is their achievement: ARK II, a mobile storehouse of scientific
knowlege, manned by a highly trained crew of young people...."

Re: Space Academy & Jason Of Star Command.  NO, these were NOT the
same shows!!!!  None of the cast was the same, unless you count
Peepo the manduroid robot.  They did use the same sets and models,
with the addition of the StarFire spacecraft to the JOSC lineup; SA
only had the Seeker spaceships.  (I have a photo of part of the
interior of a Seeker; THAT was an INCREDIBLE ship!!!)In fact, when
Filmation pitched this show (SA) to CBS, they thought it was for a
Prime Time show!!!  Too bad Filmation corrected them!!!!!!!  In
fact, Space Academy was the first Saturday morning show to be filmed
on 35mm film; most were done on 16mm, but with the complex effects
used on SA, they needed the larger film size.

As an aside, I have audio recordings of the opening 'themes' of most
or all of these.... (which explains how I know the opening narration
from Ark II... and Space Academy... and the lyrics to the opening
song from Lost Saucer... etc., etc., etc.)


George Madison
BITNET: 7gmadiso@pomona
UUCP:   psuvax1!pomona.bitnet!7gmadiso
ARPA:   7gmadiso%pomona@wiscvm.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 10:23:11 GMT
From: psuvax1!lll-winken!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

And how about "Men in Space", the adventures of the redoubtable Col.
Ed McCauley, intrepid astronaut and (later) moon base resident.  I
used to have a plastic Ed McCauley Space Helmet.  Wonder what ever
became of it?

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren | it
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: TUE DEC 08, 1987 17.44.51 EST
From: "Tom Browne" <TPB1%LEHIGH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Old TV shows

Now some of my own choices:  Who remembers --

Voyagers
SpectraMan
Johnny Socko and his Flying Robot

And a cartoon series which I can't recall the name of:
  5 kids with powers/weapons and bird outfits each had own vehicle
as well, master vehicle was call Phoenix and could change to fire..
something like that.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 00:42:32 GMT
From: lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Smoke Greyflame)
Subject: Re: Old TV shows

TPB1@lehigh.BITNET ("Tom Browne") writes:
>Now some of my own choices:  Who remembers --
>
>And a cartoon series which I can't recall the name of:
>  5 kids with powers/weapons and bird outfits each had own vehicle
>as well, master vehicle was call Phoenix and could change to fire..
>something like that.

This was called Battle of the Planets, and concerns what happens
when a great anime cartoon show is translated, chopped, destroyed,
and completely changed, wiping out all traces of characterization
that remained.  I believe that the original was called Gatchaman,
and all I have seen of it was a half hour in Japanese and a poster.
I thought I liked Battle of the Planets as a child.  After seeing
what had been done to it, and what it was like originally, my brain
exploded.  For instance, the poster has Mark, the leader, standing
atop a pile of wreckage glaring at a fleeing plane with "Princess"
(She had a real name and a real life, but BotP destroyed it)
clinging to him, and Jason's dead body on the ground nearby.  Let me
tell you, Battle of the Planets had no such feeling to it.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 19:49:22 GMT
From: norton@jacobs.cs.orst.edu (Peter Norton)
Subject: Re: Captain Power

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>I was watching Captain Power with a friend of mine today and
>noticed that she was squinting all through the show. When it was
>over she said she had gotten a severe headache. I was wondering,
>since the show fires invisible beams back at the people watching,
>could the beams damage a person's eyes? For that matter what kind
>of beams are they using? And if they are damaging, the people that
>made the show could get sued nice and proper.

*Excuse* me?  Invisible beams?  Your TV does not fire invisible
beams of any sort.  The Captain Power toy responds to patterns
appearing on the screen.  I am not sure of the exact make up of the
toy, or how the show activates it, but I can make a good educated
guess.  I imagine that the toy picks up on information encoded in
pulses of light appearing on the screen.  Depending on the pattern
of the pulses it sees, it does specific things.  These pulses are
meaningless to people, and since they appear on the screen only for
an instant, you wouldn't even see them.  Especially with all of the
distraction of the Captain Power adventure show.

What your friend might have picked up on the flicker that the coded
information produced (assuming that it does produce a flicker, I
don't know) on the TV, and this could of bothered her eyes.  In any
case, the show doesn't produce any thing that could damage a
person's eyes.

Peter Norton
norton@jacobs.cs.orst.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 18:05:00 GMT
From: eds9305@acf3.nyu.edu (Eric Shafto)
Subject: Re: Captain Power

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>I was watching Captain Power with a friend of mine today and
>noticed that she was squinting all through the show. When it was
>over she said she had gotten a severe headache. I was wondering,
>since the show fires invisible beams back at the people watching,
>could the beams damage a person's eyes? For that matter what kind
>of beams are they using? And if they are damaging, the people that
>made the show could get sued nice and proper.

No, no invisible beams.  Parts of the screen (targets) flash in a
particularly annoying fashion.  If you aim at one of these and pull
the trigger, your gun records a hit.  Other parts of the screen
flash in a *different* annoying way to record someone else firing on
you.  Your gun sees this and decides you've been hit.

I could easily see that flickering giving someone a headache.  On
the other hand, has your friend had her eyes checked lately?  (no
smiley).  Can see the show giving you a headache, but can't imagine
how it could make you squint.

Regards,

Eric Shafto
eds9305@acf3.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 19:01:33 GMT
From: moss!hrcca!jean@RUTGERS.EDU (Jean Airey)
Subject: Re: Blake's, all 7 of them!

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
> Also note that the actors portraying Travis change at some point.

The actor playing the "first" Travis, Stephen Greif, had contracted
for another job after the first season -- because the BBC was very
slow in notifying everyone connected with the show that there *was*
going to be a second season.  Greif wanted to do the second season
but could not have done the first couple of shows so the part was
re-cast.

> The second Travis, the one with the really thick Cockney accent,

I'd have to check my sources, but I do not believe that Brian has a
"cockney" accent.  It is, as he discussed in one interview, a very
definite, very lower-class British accent -- he also commented that
he can't do the "posh" accent.  (Interesting comment for an actor to
make!).  One comment one fan has made is that the "first" Travis was
an "Alpha with delusions of grandeur," and the "second" Travis was a
"Delta with delusions."  Incidently, if you listen closely, you will
hear Michael Keating slip into a "lower class" accent from time to
time.  He wanted to use it more, but early-on he was told not to
--so he just slipped it in.  His feeling was that the accent/class
connection would have continued into the 'future.'

Incidently, Brian Croucher is in a current series as the desk
sergeant in what I've heard referred to as a British version of
"Hill Street Blues."

For those SF/B7/ST fans who have read any of Jean Lorrah's work --
she originally started writing "fan stories" & has her own series in
professional SF writings -- the Savage Empire series (two more books
coming out -- "Wulfston's Odyssey & Empress Unborn), also a ST novel
-- a sequel to her " The Vulcan Academy Murders" -- called "The IDIC
Epidemic" -- available February 1988.  She's apparently "hooked" on
the B7 series -- and has a B7 fanzine-novel coming out Spring of
1988.  It's called "Trust, Like The Soul".  The flier I just got
sounds most interesting -- the story deals with Tarrant reversing
the memory tubes on Ultraworld & the ensuing (ahem) problems that
occur.  (One quote from the flier: "You know, Avon," Cally said as
she got cautiously to her feet, "you really should not allow anyone
the use of your body without a care and amintenance manual!"  Send a
SASE with a *25 cent* stamp to: Empire Books, Box 625, Murray, KY
42071 for details.

Jean Airey
1306 W. Illinois
Aurora, IL 60506
ihnp4!hrcca!jean

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 22:37:36 GMT
From: ames!aurora!timelord@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (G. "Murdock" Helms)
Subject: Re: Blake's, all 7 of them!

Jean Airey writes:
> I'd have to check my sources, but I do not believe that Brian has
> a "cockney" accent.  It is, as he discussed in one interview, a
> very definite, very lower-class British accent -- he also
> commented that he can't do the "posh" accent.  (Interesting
> comment for an actor to make!).

Ooops, my mistake.  I had thought I had seen it written up as a
Cockney accent, but perhaps I was mistaken.  At any rate, now
everyone knows which Travis I was referring to!

Also, Gan fans please note...the actor who portrays Gan is ALSO in
"Edge of Darkness" ( I re-watched it the other night).  Be advised
that "EoD" runs about 6 hours or thereabouts.  It was also spotted
in a video store under "Drama".  It's well worth watching.

Murdock

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #536
Date: 14 Dec 87 0910-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #536
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Dec 87 0910-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #536
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 536

Today's Topics:

            Books - Anthony & Asimov & Baldwin & Bear &
                    Boland & Calvino & Dillard &
                    Frankowski (2 msgs) & McCammon &
                    McCollum & Talbot (2 msgs) &
                    Vampire Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 20:26:00 GMT
From: inmet!justin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Misc questionings

lwv@n8emr.UUCP writes:
>   In Piers Anthony's immortality book of War/Mars, the book 5
>Rings - A Book is referenced.  It is mentioned in terms on Kendo,
>and the narrator refers to it as a standard martial arts reference.
>Is it, and if so, is an English translation of it available easily?
>Title / translator /etc would be appreciated.

The Book of Five Rings is pretty commonly available. I don't
remember the author's name, but it has been cited as the guts of
Japanese business practice, among other things. Since emulating said
business practices has become a major fad in the US, the book can be
found in the business/ finance section of a lot of good bookstores.
It's a fairly slim volume, as I recall, and tends to stand out as
looking really odd in the middle of all these thick business books.

Mark Waks
Intermetrics, Inc.
(617) 661-1840, x4704
...{ihnp4, mirror, ima}!inmet!justin
justin@inmet.inmet.com

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 19:31:59 GMT
From: futor@LLL-LCC.LLNL.GOV (Randy J. Futor)
Subject: Re: A story request

lewis@bgsuvax.UUCP (larry lewis) writes:
>throopw@xyzzy.UUCP (Wayne A. Throop) writes:
>> This is likely to be "A Feeling of Power", by Isaac Asimov.  (I
>> may have gotten the title slightly wrong, but it is something
>> quite like that.)
>The name of the story is correct. The old man called his discovery
>"Graphitics" and it was based on the fact that calculator answers
>were consistent. EX: 6x9 always=54. The military want to use manned

This is exactly the thing that gives the mucky-muck that
'discovered' the technician his 'feeling of power' at the end of the
story.

>bombs instead od computer driven ones. More cost effective, they
>say. The man kills himself before the end of the story but he has
>already given away to secret so his suicide was in vain.
>
>It really was a very good story and if I'm not mistaken you can
>find a copy of it in a collection called "the Early Asimov" [...]

I believe I remember this story from the _Nine_Tomorrows_
collection, which ought to be 'must reading' for an Asimov fan!
   "Profession" -- even having a reasonable idea where he was
       going with this one didn't prevent it from being a well-told
       tale.

   "The Last Question" -- "There is as yet insufficient data
      for a meaningful answer."

   "The Ugly Little Boy" -- I've wanted to see this one turned
      into a movie (for TV?) or some such since my first reading.

Damn fine book & well worth every minute, *I* thought!            ;-}

Randy
futor@lll-lcc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 09:45:29 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: New Space Opera

With the recent talk of Doc Smith, I thought I might mention
_Galactic Convoy_ by Bill Baldwin.  I would have thought it
impossible to write an unselfconscious space opera in 1987, but
Baldwin has done it.  His settings and characters owe as much to C.
S. Forrester (sp?) as to Smith, but this is space opera in the grand
old manner.  Aside from the sex, this book could have been written
in the 40's.  The dialogue needs some work, and I never doubted for
a minute that we would see the "rifle over the fireplace" rule
demonstrated, but I recommend this book to anyone who (like me)
sometimes pines for the old days of crackling ether.

A great book?  No.  Fun, certainly.

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 13:43:55 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: FORGE OF GOD

                     FORGE OF GOD by Greg Bear
                        Tor, no ISBN number
                  A book review by Mark R. Leeper

     There is a curse that says, "May you live in interesting
times."  If you look back at what were the interesting eras in
history, you will understand why you want to live in the dullest
times possible.  Well, you can tell that you are in for an
interesting time when Europa, one of the moons of Jupiter, suddenly
goes AWOL.  You can guess that something is happening that is pretty
unusual.  What is happening is that our world is being invaded, not
by one, but by two alien races at the same time.  Or maybe it is
just one race.  In any case, it is darn hard to tell what we've been
invaded by, but part of it is something that ate Europa, and that
cannot be a good sign.

     Unfortunately, it is a little tough to say much about FORGE OF
GOD without giving away too much of the plot.  It is quite likely
that you have not read an invasion novel in which the Earth has been
invaded in quite this way before.  This is certainly not a standard
"interstellar gunship" sort of invasion.  This is very much an alien
invasion novel of the 1980s and it has 1980s concerns.  It concerns
itself with questions like the Fermi Paradox, which asks, with all
the possible intelligent races out there, why haven't we been
contacted--it in fact comes up with a neat if not entirely pleasant
solution to this paradox.  It also deals with Von Neumann
machines--the cybernetic equivalent of viruses.  They do little in
life but reproduce themselves.

     It has been suggested that because FORGE OF GOD deals with
these concepts it is a very realistic science fiction novel.  I
doubt that myself.  It contains up-to-date ideas, but there is a
certain pomposity to saying that in the 1960s we didn't know how
really advanced aliens would be likely to attack us but in the 1980s
we do.  About the best I could say is that FORGE OF GOD is a better
guess than many we have seen before.  And still there is a lot about
the invasion technique that Bear leaves unexplained and other parts
that seem out-and-out wrong.  But overall, it is a novel that keeps
the reader guessing and turning pages.  That and some decent ideas
to chew on make this a well-above-average invasion novel.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 15:33:16 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: WHITE AUGUST (was Misc. questionings)

From:   n8emr!lwv       (Larry W. Virden)

> The first science fiction long reading that I can recall was a
> novel called "White August"...it was probably published by...one
> of the...  kids publishers.  I cannot seem to find any references
> to this book or its author, who I cannot remember. Anyone able to
> help me out there?

The author is John Boland, the publisher was indeed of the "kids
publishers", Arcadia House. Arcadia published it in 1966, but it was
first published in England in 1955.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 87 21:17:47 GMT
From: aterry@teknowledge-vaxc.arpa (Allan Terry)
Subject: Is Calvino SF?

Somebody mentioned Invisible Cities and T-zero by Calvino, and asked
if he writes science ficition.  Calvino is much too good of a writer
to confine to any single genre but much of what he wrote would be
interesting to folk on this bboard.  Invisible Cities is Calvino in
his philosophical mood, it is much like a series of prose "poems" or
short stories expressing an idea or mood.  T-zero is a bunch of
short stories written like literature but with scientific backdrops.
For example, a story about beings playing marbles with electrons and
how one gets nice shiny ones from a white hole.  Calvino often
writes with a strong dose of "conceptual art", he will create some
artificial device to order his story.  In Invisible Cities, every
chapter is a city described by Marco Polo.  In another book, the
next turn of plot was determined by the draw of tarot cards from a
deck.  Sounds weird, but he is such an accomplished writer that he
pulls it off in fine style.

Perhaps more accessable are his older books like The Count in the
Trees, The Nonexistant Knight, and a rather Baron von Munchausenish
book involving an Italian nobleman who was hit by a cannonball in
battle.  It split the unfortunate into his good half and his bad
half, each hopping along on one leg.  They both return to the family
lands where it is left to the reader to decide which is preferable
(the good half is unsufferable).  All three are great fun, The Count
in the Trees is probably the best.

Allan

------------------------------

Date: 4 Dec 87 01:38:13 GMT
From: cc1@valhalla.cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Latest ST Novel--Blood...something <no spoilers>

There's a new Star Trek novel out--Blood something...  I don't have
it in front of me now.  Written by Dillard (is that someone?  maybe
the wrong name--something with a D, I know) It's all right, some of
the "new characters" introduced are bearable.  Other than that, I
don't have much to say...after all, I did say <no spoilers>...well,
here's a spoiler:
   Darth Vader is Kirk's father!!!
Oh, well, maybe he's not.  But at least I didn't spoil anything for
you!

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 87 14:52:55 EST
From: "Morris M. Keesan" <keesan@cca.bbn.com>
Subject: Leo Frankowski, High-Tech Knight
To: GILL@qucdnast.BITNET

According to LOCUS, Leo Frankowski has turned in The High Tech
Knight to Del Rey, and it should be out in early 1988 (Locus gave a
month, but I don't remember what it was).

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 21:59:32 GMT
From: chinet!clif@RUTGERS.EDU (Clif Flynt)
Subject: Re: Leo Frankowski's time travel novels

GILL@qucdnast.BITNET writes:
>     Early last year, I had picked up a very enjoyable time- travel
>novel written by Leo Frankowski, titled "The Cross-Time Engineer".
>     The question I have is, has anyone heard if Leo Frankowski is
>writing these three novels, or of any projected publishing date?

Leo is a mainstay at Sf cons in Southeastern Michigan.  As of last
spring, I think it was, he mentioned that he had quit his Consulting
Engineering work to write full time, but was finding it a bit
different to write when he wasn't trying to scrounge time for it.
He is/was planning on writing the books, but was having trouble
actually sitting down and putting words on the screen.

If you're in the area, come to Confusion, Late January, in
Southfield Michigan, and you can ask Leo yourself how things are
going.  He's a pretty easy going fellow to talk to.

Clif Flynt
ihnp4!chinet!clif

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 04:21:36 GMT
From: smeyer@topaz.rutgers.edu (Seth Meyer)
Subject: Swan Song

Did anyone out there read _Swan_Song_ by Robert McCammon?

It's another apocalyptic type of novel (very similar to _The_Stand_
by Stephen King) with a nuclear war.  I found it *better* than
_The_Stand_, if not the best book that I've read.  It is 956 pages
and kept my interest unlike any other book.  In my opinion, if you
want to call any part of the book boring, it would be the
beginning... and *that* is the part with the nuclear war!!  It don't
remember it becoming a best seller, and I would like to hear some
other people's opinions on the novel.

Seth Meyer

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 23:38:31 GMT
From: wales@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: ANTARES PASSAGE by Michael McCollum

Michael McCollum has come out with a new book, ANTARES PASSAGE.  As
the title implies, this is a sequel to last year's ANTARES DAWN.

I enjoyed it, and would recommend it (though you really do need to
read ANTARES DAWN first).

My only complaint about McCollum's writing style in ANTARES PASSAGE
(and to some extent in his other books) centers around his tendency
to set up lots of minor problems one at a time, and resolve them
fairly quickly, rather than introduce and build up several major
crises and wait till the end of the book to resolve them.

I'm still hoping that McCollum will come out with a sequel to
PROCYON'S PROMISE.  However, I think a sequel to ANTARES PASSAGE
would be almost equally welcome.

Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
+1 (213) 825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024-1596
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
...!(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 08:48:11 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: The Delicate Dependency

A Novel Of The Vampire Life, by Michael Talbot. c 1982. ISBN
0-380-77982-x.

This novel is set in Victorian England and parts of Europe.
Although it has been a couple of years since I read it, the overall
impression it left me with was of a quiet, thoughtful read. No
buckets of blood, just proper Victorian era type people, caught up
in something quite beyond them, and struggling to understand.  There
were one or two tag ends that didn't resolve themselves adequately,
in my opinion. But they didn't distract much from the total book...
just could have been left out entirely.  In all, a very enjoyable
read.  I rate it a +3 on the 0-4 scale.

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 10:36:15 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: THE DELICATE DEPENDENCY

There was a query some issues back in SF-Lovers about the author of
the vampire novel, THE DELICATE DEPENDENCY. I have a copy of this;
here's the data:

Michael Talbot, THE DELICATE DEPENDENCY, A Novel Of The Vampire Life
"an original publication of Avon Books. This work has never before
appeared in book form." Copyright 1982 by Michael Talbot, Lib. of
Cong.  cat card # 80-69887, ISBN: 0-380-77982-x, First Avon
Printing, March, 1982; 406 pages.

The copy I have is a $2.95 paperback with a lurid purpil and red
cover.  The cover blurb prose is as purple as the cover itself... It
describes the vampires as being the Illuminati, and lists the cast
as,

"The players in this story are: Dr. John Gladstone, a fashionable
London virologist on the verge of altering history; his elder
daughter Ursula, enticed by the lure of immortality; his younger
daughter Camille, bereft of reason, bestowed with genius; and the
Lady Hespeth, whose obsession is a mask of the unimaginable.

Their world as they know it will begin to dissolve in illusion and
terror from the moment a young Italian falls beneath Dr. Gladstone's
carriage. For Niccolo is the androgynous angel painted centuries ago
in da Vinci's MADONNA OF THE ROCKS.

Now he beckons. And they must follow him past the certanties of
their mortal reality, through mysteries shrouded in horror, into the
phantasmagoric eternity of sensuous, heady delight which is the life
of the vampire."

Hmmm... I can't comment meaningfuly on this book; I started to read
it years ago, got about halfway through, in fits and starts, and
never continued (I have about 20 books sitting around in similar
disheveled states... :-). Take that as a personal opinion that I
found it slow and uninvolving. I'll have to start over again from
the beginning if I ever take it up again; I've forgotten just about
all of what I read.

Regards, Will Martin

------------------------------

Date: 08 Dec 87 20:48:00 EST
From: John Carr <John_Carr%IUP.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Vampire Question

DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET writes:
> please....who wrote "The Delicate Dependency".

Well, it has been a very long time since I've read it (1982), but I
believe it was Michael Talbot.  Very good read..

Since we are on the subject of Vampires, I remember reading a book
that had an untraditional vampire in it.  Basically, the vampire did
not have long canines but two prongs on the underside of its tongue.
Its saliva was an anti-coagulant(sp?).  Does anyone recognize this?
I would like to read it again, because it had one of the most
plausible vampire stories I ever read.

John R. Carr
Systems
JRCARR@IUP.BITNET

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #537
Date: 14 Dec 87 0949-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #537
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Dec 87 0949-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #537
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 537

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 87 7:57:19 EST
From: "Hugh A. Huntzinger" (CCL-S) <huntzing@ARDEC.ARPA>
Subject: STTNG:  Language/Accents

>>   I think it's more realistic that the characters don't have
>>heavy accents.  After all, this is several centuries from now,
>>there are no longer separate countries.  The heavy accents would
>>have long ago disappeared.  That was the one thing I didn't like
>>about the old Star Treks.
>
>  A few centuries, perhaps, but not, I think, several.  I haven't
>been watching, so I've missed it if something specific was said,
>but where do you get the idea there are no separate countries?
>Considering the trends of the past, and the tendencies still strong
>today, there seems little reason to suppose countries would
>amalgamate....<etc>
> And even if it were true that national boundaries would have
>disappeared, it still doesn't follow that regional accents would
>follow....<etc>

I think if you were to watch "The history of English" on PBS (I've
only seen a *few* of the episodes), you could make the conclusion
that as a (any) language becomes further and further widespread,
there becomes more and more *local* variations in the accent/word
usage/etc.  IE, English: England vs. Jamacia vs. India vs. Australia
vs. USA.

Apparently, with a lack of a centralized "control" on the language,
this generation's slang becomes accepted by the next and so forth
until the local language is (possibly significantly) different than
the original.  Remember that Latin was a base language for English,
Spanish & French.

How about the first time you were away from home & everyone had some
slang that you had never heard of?  Eh?

With the time/distances of inter-stellar travel, I would actually
expect languages to change as much as it has here on Earth (possibly
more).

However:
  1.  Actors have to have an accent they can live with (for many
      seasons!).
  2.  Producers have to require light accents (easy audience
      understanding).

Now if the writers were to have a planet that was cut off from the
Federation for a couple of generations...

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 21:16:12 GMT
From: lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Smoke Greyflame)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

>mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (The Chameleon) writes:
>>        Why are the shields raised twice and never lowered, yet
>> this does not interfere with the transporters except where the
>> plot calls for it?
>My turn.  In _Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise_ it is mentioned
>that the new NCC-1701A (the new Enterprise) CAN use transporters
>with shields.  This is accomplished by taking all the output from
>all the transporters and channelling it through a very narrow break
>in the shields.  All the transporters can thus be used with
>shields.

Aargh.  This causes far more problems than it solves.  If there is
only a narrow break in the shields, then there is only a limited
amount of places to which you can transport to when the shields are
up, unless you can somehow tell the beam to take a left after going
through the crack in the shields.  Also, why don't we hear, "Target
for the transporter shield break with the photon torpedoes."?
Presumably the shield break does not open onto a vital part of the
ship, but if you get a torpedo in, the whole thing will go up.  Yet
again, we should hear, "Lieutenant Yar, assemble a security team,
beam in through the transporter break, and collect the captain."
Since it looks like the Ferrengi ship may have these breaks as well,
since the Ferrengi captain is transported (I'm not totally sure
here) this brings the concept of boarding parties back into naval
space combat.

I'd put money on Tasha over a Ferrengi any day.  You just have to
point a phaser, while they have to swing those silly Slaver whips.
Besides, she's cuter, especially when she pouts.

I can see it now: Tasha and security team ( read "boarding party" )
beam onto a Ferrengi bridge.
Ferrengi Captain:  Iss thiss a GIFFT, Captain Picard?
Captain Picard: No.
Lieutenant Yar: Definitely not.
Lieutenant Yar's phaser: <Vaporize>

See ya!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 87 11:49:16 EST
From: jay sekora <SEKJAYA%YALEVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: STTNG -- consistency, languages, accents

In ST Classic, New ST, and the movies, there seem to be two
different approaches to language:
    (1) everyone speaks English (or at least some sort of standard
language), including cultures that have never before met a
spacefaring race.  Some of the ST episodes require this for the
plot.  This is especially clear in 'alternate history' episodes,
such as the one with the 'kohms' and 'yangs' [although if the
'kohms' had won, why wasn't everyone speaking russian?], or 'Bread
and Circuses', in which the Roman Empire never fell.  [Again, why
did the Enterprise pick up ads for 'Mars toothpaste' rather than
'dentrifricium "martius"'?] Also the infinite multitude of episodes
where Federation people pose as members of an hitherto unencountered
primitive society with no mention of any method of translation or
any language barrier.
    (2) Alien races have different, often unknown languages.  I
remember one of the old episodes had a stranded Federation officer
falling in love with some sort of energy being, and a major part of
the plot was translating the energy being's language.  Vulcan terms
were used in 'amok Time'.  In the movies Klingon and Vulcan are
spoken, and in one of them Kirk uses a Klingon phrase ('Beam me up
now, you cowardly son of a human!')  Although he obviously does not
know Klingon.
    Moreover, non-humans never speak English with an accent.
(If I remember right, the one exception was the matriarch in
'amok Time') Chekov and Scotty had thick (and silly) accents,
but random Klingon commanders and locals spoke standard Federation
English with no accent.  The same sort of thing occurs with the
prime directive.  The prime directive shows up when it is convenient
for the script; when it furthers the plot.  It is ignored when it
would hold the story back.  Ditto other items of consistency:
remember that in the first episode where the Vulcan mind meld showed
up Spock had a strong tabu against using it, and could only use it
in the direst of circumstances and WHEN HE WAS INVITED TO.  In later
episodes he uses it on unwilling subjects whenever it gets him out
of a fix.
    None of this should interfere with our enjoyment of the stories.
This is TV.  ST is not CITIES IN FLIGHT or RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA;
it's a reasonably good action/adventure series that occasionally
(and often clumsily) addresses social issues.  it's not supposed to
be any more consistent or technically plausible than is absolutely
necessary for intelligent viewers to enjoy it (and watch it and go
buy its sponsors' products).  It's supposed to be fun.  If
consistency gets in the way of a good, fast-paced storyline,
consistency has got to go.

jay sekora
SEKJAYA@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 18:23:57 GMT
From: cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu (Capt. Gym Quirk)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Klingon females are treated by Klingon males as sub-sentient.  The
>first appearance of a female Klingon was in the third season
>episode "Day of the Dove", which is dismissed as inauthentic by
>most knowledgable people.  The Klingon female was an officer, which
>goes against everything that has ever been said about Klingon
>gender relations; this glaring error is the result of the total
>carelessness that went into the third season.

>>Valkris, the female agent in the movie, was not a Klingon, but a
>Romulan.  The Klingons and Romulans have a long-standing alliance.
>Valkris looked absolutely nothing like a Klingon.

A WHAT????  Where were the pointed ears?  Where were the arched
eyebrows?  Come on!  We saw what a female Romulan looked like in
"The ENTERPRISE incident".  Oh.  I see.  That too was a result of
the '...total carelessness that went into the third season.'  1/4
:-)

Valkris had the ridge crests of an imperial Klingon.

>I like the fact that the Klingons are portrayed as sexist scumbags,
>but it disturbs me that all major sentient races except humans and
>Romulans put women in a subservient role (Klingons, Vulcans,
>Ferrengi).  It almost seems as if we are being told that female
>subservience is part of the natural order of sentience.  There are
>no major female-dominated sentient races, two semi-egalitarian
>races, and three male-dominated races, a clear imbalance in favor
>of male dominance.

What makes you think that the Vulcans are male-dominated?  I would
think that the fact that the females retain their rationality during
Pon Farr (Listen to T'Pring in "Amok Time") shows that they are far
from subservient.  Also consider that T'Pau (NOT the pop group!) is
a major part of planetary (and Federation) polotics.  I would take a
closer look at the facts before I make such sweeping statements.

Taki Kogoma
cs2551ai@charon.unm.edu
hi!charon!cs2551ai@hc.dspo.gov
{unm-la,ames,gatech,ucbvax}!hc.dspo.gov!hi!charon!cs2551ai

------------------------------

Date: 8 DEC 87 18:46-PST
From: dkrause%UCIVMSA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: ST:  "The Last Battle"

From: "Stephen R. Balzac" <LS.SRB@deep-thought.mit.edu>
>   Prefix Codes: I seem to recall from STII that the codes were
>sent over when Khan was expecting some other transmission and thus
>couldn't be sent through shields.

But Khan had the shields up.  The "Here it comes" transmission shut
them down right in front of Joachim's face.

Douglas Krause
ARPANET: dkrause@orion.cf.uci.edu
BITNET: DJKrause@ucivmsa
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucivax!orion!dkrause

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 10:08:56 GMT
From: motown!ninja!killer!davidg@RUTGERS.EDU (David Guntner)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) says:
>davidg@killer.UUCP (David Guntner) writes:
>>tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) says:
>>> There are no major female-dominated sentient races, two
>>> semi-egalitarian races, and three male-dominated races, a clear
>>> imbalance in favor of male dominance.
>>No disagreement there, with the exception that you are forgetting
>>that the high mucka-muck boss of Vulcan is female.  Hardly a
>>subservient role!
>
> I think you're forgetting what we saw of the relationship between
> Sarek and Amanda.  "My wife, attend!" and all that.  Patriarchal
> cultures always have a few token female leaders, like Elizabeth
> the First, to prove that they aren't as bad as they would
> otherwise seem.  The chief requirement of such leaders is that
> they not upset the system of male dominance; for instance,
> wife-beating was the social norm under Elizabeth.
>
> And by the way, though T'Pau was a galactically known and
> respected leader, there was no implication that she ruled Vulcan.

I would like to point out that Leonard Nimoy himself has stated that
Vulcan is a matriarchy (sp?), and that the leader of the planet was
a woman.  He cited "Amok Time" as the episode which made this clear.

David Guntner
UUCP: {ihnp4, codas}!killer!davidg
INET: davidg@killer.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 10:06:00 EST
From: <graham@drcvax.arpa>
Subject: ST:TNG racism, bunch of crap!!

>Do you think greed is the only resemblance?  A race of short,
>untrustworthy, greedy interstellar traders with big noses, big ears
>and bad complexions, whose private ways are mysterious to us decent
>folk, seems to touch anti-Semitic stereotypes at more than one
>point.  Eight points, in fact.

First, let's clear up the vocabulary: "Semitic" does not refer only
to Jews, it also refers to all of the Semitic people, which includes
Arabs.  Don't take my word, consult Webster.

Second, the writers just can't win with some people.  No matter who
they designed, no matter what kind of alien they came up with, those
who want to see racism will see it.  Just as in the McCarthy era,
people saw Communists coming out from the woodwork, people will see
racism in every nook and cranny if they are looking for it, even
though it really isn't there in many cases.  [Yes, I agree it is
there in many cases too, but not in ST:TNG.]

>Say what?  I think the whole attitude towards alien sentients in
>Star Trek is about as racist as it possibly could be!

You generally get just what you look for.  Why are you looking for
racism?

>(In case you couldn't tell, this kind of species-ism is one of my
>pet peeves in fantasy and science fiction in general.

Yes, and one of mine is people who see racism in everything.  I
admit freely that there are serious problems with racism in our
world, problems that no people ought to be burdened with.  HOWEVER,
seeing racism in everything, like seeing Communists under every bed,
won't solve those problems, it aggravates them.

I am a member of three different minorities.  I do not see racism in
ST:TNG, nor do I see any attempt to even suggest anti-anyone
feelings.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 87  09:36 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: star trek

I have been wondering lately - what do people consider "authentic"
Star Trek?  In particular, I have noticed people calling Romulans
"Rihansu", from the ST novels by Diane Duane.  This bothers me a
bit; I don't like the idea that one particular author can officially
establish what a race is like, when his/her ideas go beyond what has
ever been shown on the air.  People have been writing stories about
Romulans for years in the fanzines; one of the nicest things about
them is the way they were never really described very much - a lot
left open to the imagination.  For me Romulans will never be Rihansu
- while I like Ms Duane's books very much, I also like some of the
amateur stuff which will never be published by Pocket Books - where
the Romulans are Rom'ii, Rom'i'ani or whatever.  Ms Duane is *not*
the last word on them.  (If we were to take Pocket Books ST novels
as "official" we would have problems, because they are not
consistent with each other if written by different authors.)  The
same thing seems to be happening with the Klingons and John Ford.  I
don't like his Klingon culture; while it is a fantastic creation, it
is not *my* "official" Klingondom.  I happen to prefer the Klingons
of Fern Marder and Carol Walske in their "Nu Ormenel" fanzine
series.  (Very out-of-print now, alas) Neither version contradicts
what has been aired on Star Trek; I don't consider either to be
official.

So what is official Star Trek?  I would say only what is aired.  Of
course, that leaves all sorts of problems - there is now ST:TOG, the
animated series, ST:TMP, STII:TWOK, STIII:TSFS, STIV:TVH, and
ST:TNG.  With all sorts of inconsistencies of course.  Most authors
(fan or pro) seem to follow this rule; their writings are as
consistent as possible with what has been aired up to that point -
or to whatever point in time their story is set in.  Jean Lorrah in
particular takes only the original ST:TOG as her background, I
think.  Her pro novels (Vulcan Academy Murders and IDIC Epidemic)
are set in the background of some of her fanzines (the Night of the
Twin Moons series); in at least some of her stuff, the sehlat who
died in animated episode "Yesteryear" is still alive, indicating
that she ignores everything after the original ST.  The pocket books
rule is that none of their pro stuff may make any permanent changes
to any of the major characters; this leaves open the possibility of
ten different versions of the Romulans (anyone ever read all the
books containing the female Romulan commander from The Enterprise
Incident?  She has committed suicide, been kicked out of the fleet,
regained her position, become a VIP fleet commander, married a clone
of James Kirk, etc.  Anyone want to make a comment on which is
"official"?) and ten different versions of the Klingons.  It also
prevents a lot of interesting stories from being professionally
published, unfortunately.

About the only Star Trek novels that I think can be considered
"official" are the movie novelizations - and I am not entirely sure
about that; comments?

I don't have any brilliant conclusions to draw from all of this;
just wanted to share my thoughts on it and hopefully create some
discussion.

susan de guardiola
degsusm@yalevm.bitnet

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 14-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #538
Date: 14 Dec 87 1013-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #538
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Dec 87 1013-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #538
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 14 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 538

Today's Topics:

             Books - Clarke (8 msgs) & Pohl (3 msgs) &
                     Post Apocalypse Magic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 18:53:28 GMT
From: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu (Jay C. Smith)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) writes:
>First of all, the centrifuge is constructed such that it's axis
>does, in fact, run through the long axis of the Discovery
>(documented in _2001_, the novel, and also in
>_The_Lost_Worlds_of_2001_).

That's not the way I read it.  From page 101 of _2001_: "The
equatorial region of the pressure sphere -- the slice, as it were,
from Capricorn to Cancer -- enclosed a slowly rotating drum,
thirty-five feet in diameter."  To me this means that the
centrifuge's axis of rotation is perpendicular to the long axis of
the ship.  Although the description of the entire Discovery differs
somewhat from what was seen in the film, this design element seemed
to remain, since the exterior of the sphere had a ring around its
middle.

>Also (as mentioned in the _2001_ novel) Bowman de-spun the
>centrifuge prior to leaving Discovery...  ...all of the energy was
>stored in a disengaged flywheel (disengaged via mechanical clutch)
>so that centrifuge spin could later be restored.

While the flywheel is mentioned in _2001_, I cannot find a reference
to Bowman's actual use of it, or that he de-spun the centrifuge.

In answer to my question about the spinning resulting from the
transfer of momentum from the centrifuge I received an e-mail
response suggesting I look up "precession" in a basic physics text.
I looked this up in the physics book that has been taking up space
on my shelf, but found only a chapter appendix that deals with this.
I now understand why the ship must spin about its center of mass
(which may or not be its midpoint as described in _2010_), but I do
not understand why the rotation would be a pitching motion rather
than a yawing.

Jay C. Smith
uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
Domain: jay@ncspm.ncsu.edu
internet: jay%ncspm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 18:48:32 GMT
From: rck@ihuxv.att.com (R. C. Kukuk)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

Now that we're on the topic of the Discovery's centrifuge, I'd like
to state something that's been bothering me since the first time I
saw 2001 (nineteen years ago already?).  The interior shots of the
centrifuge, in my opinion, make it too large to fit at any angle
within the sphere.  I recall reading (probably in the book) that the
centrifuge had a diameter of about 50 feet.  But exterior views of
the Discovery give the sphere a diameter of around 65 to 70 feet.  I
estimated this on the size of the flight deck windows and on the
diameter of the pod doors.  If you allow for the depth of the flight
deck based on the window placement, and the size of the pod deck
based on the pod door placement, there doesn't appear to be any
volume left for the centrifuge.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Ron Kukuk
AT&T Bell Labs

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 22:18:50 GMT
From: uunet!psivax!ashtate!mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) writes:
>Can any of you physics or mechanical engineering majors suggest a
>sequence of events that would have translated the axis of rotation,
>as demonstrated in the movie?

The obvious mechanism for translating axes of rotation is
precession.  There has certainly been enough time for this to have
happened.  Would this result in an end for end rotation?  I'm not
sure, but I think so.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 01:12:21 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim )
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) asks:
>Can any of you physics or mechanical engineering majors suggest a
>sequence of events that would have translated the axis of rotation,
>as demonstrated in the movie?

Conservation of angular momentum does not require that the direction
of the spin axis always remain the same with regard to the spinning
body.  Rather it requires that the axis remain the same with regard
to the external universe.  Various kinds of precession are certain
to occur with a long narrow body, such as the Discovery.  The issue
is complicated by the fact that gravitational tidal effects tend to
cause such a body to orient itself vertically with regard to the
planet's surface.

I expect that the "steady state" final rotation would be at an angle
to the long axis of the ship with the angle and rate of rotation
varying depending on where the ship was in its orbit.

   \ ^     ^
    \|     |   is the axis of rotation
     o
      \    o is the "center of gravity"
       \

J. J. Whelan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 17:01:41 GMT
From: c.ng@cooper.cooper.edu (Cho Ng )
Subject: Anyone read 2061 yet?

I was riding the subway the other day and I saw an advertisement for
Clarke's new book, "2061", now in paperback.  The ad says the book
continues the previous story and need it say anymore or words to
that effect.  I didn't even know the book had come out in hardcover
and missed the reviews.  So then, has anyone read it and what did
they think?  A summary from some previous discussions that may have
occurred will suffice.

Thanks.
ihnp4!philabs!phri!cooper!c.ng
"phri!cooper!c.ng"@nyu.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 22:07:04 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Spinning in 2010

dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) writes:
>Sure. ... The easiest way to connect it to the centrifuge would be
>to have its axis meet the centrifuge at the centrifuge's edge,
>causing the flywheel's axis to be ninety degrees off from the ships
>axis.  The flywheel would then have caused the ship to rotate end
>over end.

This doesn't work.  There's this thing called conservation of
angular momentum.  If you're going to store the rotation of the
centrifuge in a flywheel without setting the ship to spinning at
some crazy angle, the axis of the flywheel *has* to be parallel to
the axis of the centrifuge.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: Fri 11 Dec 87 10:58:34-PST
From: Hy Tran <T.TRAN@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-....

Some poster(s) ask,

How can a spacecraft, which is spinning about one axis, wind up
spinning in another?  Consider a spacecraft shaped like a long,
thin, cylinder (sort of like the Discovery, right?)  This has
certain inertia properties; specifically, in the cylindrical
coordinates, it has a (small) moment of inertia along the long axis,
and two identical (large) moments of inertia along perpendicular
radial axes. (Principal axes and principal moments of inertia).

If you spin it along the long axis, i.e. along one of the principal
axis (which has the smaller moment of inertia), you have an unstable
equilibrium.  It will continue to spin on that axis only if there
are NO (that means absolutely no) external disturbances.  In the
presence of disturbances, momentum will be transferred (slowly, of
course) to the other axes.  Although the total angular momentum of
the system is conserved, the modes are different.  Your cylinder
will now tumble.

This is actually a well-known property of spin-stabilized
satellites; unless you put in some active control, a spin-stabilized
cylinder (along the long axis) will not remain spin-stabilized
(because of disturbances from atmospheric drag, solar wind, etc.)

Hope that this made sense to you,

Hy Tran
(415)858-2821
tran@krakatoa.stanford.edu
tran%krakatoa@su-score.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:00:11 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Re: 2001, 2010

bh0u@CLUTX.CLARKSON.EDU (Dave Goldblatt) writes:
>>[..] would only recommend it to people who feel they MUST have the
>>full _Space_Odyssey_ trilogy. [..]
>Actually, there's one more book due out next year, called "2068:
>The Final Odyssey" (_think_ it's 2068, anyway).  Saw thing in a
>magazine somewhere and in U.S.A. Today (who would want any other
>source? :-)

    You're right, there is one more book due out, but it's supposed
to be titled _20,001:_The_Final_Odyssey_ (I just read the article
this morning).  However, the article I read didn't say anything
about when the book would be released, only that Clarke was working
on it.
    Also, since _20,001_ hasn't been released yet, I'll continue to
stand by my original posting on the subject of _2061_, to wit:

 "...[..] would only recommend it to people who feel they MUST have
the full _Space_Odyssey_ trilogy. [..]..."

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard - Corvallis Workstation Operation
1000 NE Circle Blvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 11:36:55 est
From: anand@cm1.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand)
Subject: HeeChee

Is anybody else out there as big a fan of the Heechee series by
Fredrick Pohl as I am. These books have all that I look for in SF
and more. Particularly the first two books. The tidbits put on
alternate pages of Gateway did a remarkable role in building the
details of the future which this series is set in.  The second book
Beyond the Blue Event Horizon is no less fascinating.

   His characters are not two dimensional and the descriptions of
the technology are good overall. I havent yet read the new book - I
saw an ad in Analog. Any comments?

R. Anand
Internet: anand@amax.npac.syr.edu
bitnet ranand@sunrise

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:35:08 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

anand@CM1.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand) writes:

>Is anybody else out there as big a fan of the Heechee series by
>Fredrick Pohl as I am? These books have all that I look for in SF
>and more. Particularly the first two books.
> [...]
>    His characters are not two dimensional and the descriptions of
>the technology are good overall. I havent yet read the new book - I
>saw an ad in Analog. Any comments?

(Possible spoilers below)

I *was* a big fan of the Heechee books.  I still think Gateway is a
fabulous book, and B.t.B.E.H. is pretty good.  But the best part
about Gateway -- in my opinion -- was waiting to see what they'd
find if they took a trip out.  The bit with Robinette going through
psych was ok, but only incidental.  The reason I don't much care for
the later books -- and the third and fourth are garbage -- is Pohl's
apparent obsession with Robinette.  By the fourth book I was SICK
and TIRED of listening to Robinette whine.  In the fourth book there
are two characters that are truly interesting (the two children
(yes, I know there were three, but I didn't like Harold much)), and
when Pohl is writing about them the plot moves, the book is
interesting, and I couldn't put it down.  But no sooner would things
be zipping along nicely when WHAM!  End of chapter and back to eons
of Broadhead whimpering.  Bleah.  We never did get to see enough of
the kids -- and there was a lot of potential there.

And I thought the end to the book was lame.  I liked the concept,
but wanted more flesh on it (as a reward for slogging through the
whole thing).

No, none of the characters is two-dimensional, it's true.  But it's
reached a point where I *wish* Robinette was.

Oh, well.  Maybe Pohl has gotten the Broadhead analysis out of his
system and will use the kids as and excuse to write another sequel
*without* Broadhead.  But I bet he can't get through a whole book
without at least using dear old Robby as a deus ex machina.

Just my 2 cents worth.  Donning my asbestos underclothing now ...

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 04:59:59 GMT
From: iverson@cory.berkeley.edu (Tim Iverson)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

anand@CM1.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand) writes:
>Is anybody else out there as big a fan of the Heechee series by
>Fredrick Pohl as I am ...
>    His characters are not two dimensional and the descriptions
>of the technology are good overall ...

Well, this is the point at which we differ.  I like Pohl's writing a
lot, but whenever he tries to describe something about computers his
ideas are laughable at best.

This is especially true of the A.I. that thinks it's Robinette
Broadhead in the last novel.  Pohl states that this A.I. has
responses perhaps 100 to 1000 times faster than mortals, and that
furthermore, the machinery supports thousands of these AI's.  This
is impossible by many orders of magnitude, as any simple back of the
envelope calculation would show: assume max. 1ns switching rate per
element (10ns is possible today) for the computer, people contain
perhaps 1e10 neurons in the brain, capable of switching at perhaps
1ms per element.

   So, such a computer, if it could act like a person, would need
10Gigabits of main store, all capable of switching at 1ms -
certainly possible within the realm of SF.  Such a "person" would be
1000 times faster than normal (using the hypothetical 1ns switch).
But, there are thousands of programs running on this store - as well
as the programs that similate the complex scenery that the AI's
"perceive" - which is very heavy job for even a static scene, much
less one that includes the "bodies" of the AI's and their highly
dynamic interelations with the psuedo world, which must be
calculated once +*for each* AI for each perceived time interval (say
1e8 rays per AI per 1ms - not possible without a lot of highly
parallel hardware).  My best guess would say that all of this would
mean that such an AI-person would be at least 10 times *slower* than
real people (just think ... all that ray-tracing ...).  Divided
amongst 1000 AI's, this would mean that AI-people definitely aren't
such speed demons as Pohl makes out.  The book loses big in any area
where Pohl tries to snow the reader with the blinking lights.  i.e.
"Das machine ist not fur Gefingerpoken ...  setzen Sie back und
watchen die blinkenlights" (an excerpt from a sign above my
roommate's stereo).  Pohl gets a 8/10 for style, but a 0/10 for
science.

Tim Iverson
iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!cory!iverson

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 16:01:07 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm@RUTGERS.EDU (Not That One!)
Subject: Re: Post Apcalypse magic (minor spoilers!)

lsefton@plaid.Sun.COM (Laurie Sefton) writes:
[various comics reviews deleted]
>Wizard of 4th Street, #1 of 6, Dark Horse, (US)
>Post Apocalypse magic--there are many better stories about this
>that don't have pictures; I recommend you read those. What a
>bore...

Like where? I've had an interest in simple, complex, or intermediate
level post-holocaust magic for some time now, and except for
Saberhagen's first-rate _Empire of the East_ and the slightly less
impressive sequel _The Book of Swords_, I haven't found any.
Obviously, the novel version of _Wizard of Fourth Street_ would
qualify, but are there any others?

E-mail or post responses; I make no guarantee about posting a
summary, but I'll try, if there seems to be interest.

Kevin J. Maroney
...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!kjm

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #539
Date: 16 Dec 87 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #539
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 87 0918-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #539
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Dec 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 539

Today's Topics:

             Books - Anthony & Ford & Lupoff (2 msgs) &
                     McCollum & Moorcock & Pohl (2 msgs) &
                     E. E. Smith (2 msgs) & Zelazny &
                     Question Answered (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon 14 Dec 87 17:33:48-PST
From: Haruka Takano <Takano@THOR.HPL.HP.COM>
Subject: Go Rin No Sho (The Book of Five Rings)
To: gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU

From: gatech!rebel!dkstar!n8emr!lwv@RUTGERS.EDU (Larry W. Virden)
>   In Piers Anthony's immortality book of War/Mars, the book 5
>Rings - A Book is referenced.  It is mentioned in terms on Kendo,
>and the narrator refers to it as a standard martial arts reference.
>Is it, and if so, is an English translation of it available easily?
>Title / translator /etc would be appreciated.

The book does exist.  In the US, try:

   A Book of Five Rings
   (Original Japanese title: Go Rin No Sho)
   Miyamoto Musashi (This is listed under "Musashi," even though
      "Miyamoto" is the family name)
   Translated from the Japanese by Victor Harris
   The Overlook Press, Lewis Hollow Road, Woodstock, NY 12498
   Copyrighted 1974 by Victor Harris
   Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 73-83986
   SBN: 0-87951-018-8

Check your used book stores first.

Haruka Takano
Takano@HPLABS.HP.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 19:14:48 GMT
From: dare@swatsun (Geoff Dare)
Subject: Re: How Much For Just the Planet

greely@orange.cis.ohio-state.edu (john greely) writes:
>  Is it my imagination, or are some of the people here taking ST
>just a tad too seriously?  John M. Ford is a good writer *and* a
>funny one.  Did anyone else like "The Final Reflection"?  (or, in
>the silly vein, "The Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues", scenario
>for _Paranoia_)

Yes!!!  _The Final Reflection_ is one of the most memorable books
I've read and definitely the best Star Trek book.  Great view of
Klingon society (truly a paranoic situation!) and there's even a
female klingon on the game team.  And "Yellow Clearance. . ." is
incredibly funny and well plotted, with a satisfyingly powerful
denouement and vicious jabs throughout the whole thing.  Except it's
a little difficult to get very far; it's a definite clone-burner.

UUCP:  {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!dare
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!dare@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!dare@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 22:55:41 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: SPACE WAR BLUES (was Re: Gibson)

Bob Gray writes:
> JERRY BOYAJIAN writes:
>>(Oh, before anyone asks the obvious question, the author was
>>Richard Lupoff, who is one of the best unknown science fiction
>>writers around.)
>
> I find this statement hard to believe, based on the quality of his
> book "Circumpolar". It is full of characters which barely qualify
> as two dimensional, offensive racial stereotypes and various other
> assorted characters whose collective IQ doesn't get into double
> figures. I rated this book as -****.

Um...ever read any 40s space opera?  Those attributes you mentioned
in reference to Lupoff's work fit them to a t.  Calm down and look
at "Circumpolar" (and his "Countersolar" as well) as space opera,
and you'll see that he's spoofing the genre.  I've never been all
that fond of Lupoff, but he's turned out a few items (gnerally of a
satirical bent) that aren't too bad for those who go for that sort
of thing.  The point being that he doesn't write that way because he
don't know any better; he does if for a particular effect.

seh

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 00:58:09 GMT
From: stuart@cs.rochester.edu (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Lupoff (was Re: SPACE WAR BLUES (was Re: Gibson) )

boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> (Oh, before anyone asks the obvious question, the author was
> Richard Lupoff, who is one of the best unknown science fiction
> writers around.)

bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes:
> I find this statement hard to believe, based on the quality of his
> book "Circumpolar". [...] What other books of his would people
> recommend?

"Sword of the Demon", which is delightfully surreal in places, and
"One Million Centuries".  (Jerry will correct me if I have screwed
up author/title etc.)

These are two quite different books.  You might find find OMC a
little simplistic or stereotyped.  It's pretty much an adventure
story with a little social criticism thrown in.  I happen to enjoy
it, but it's not deep.

SotD, however, can not be so easily characterized, and is probably a
superior book by whatever metric you happen to use.  (Obvious
subjective judgement, your mileage will vary.)  I still haven't
figured out all of what goes on in SotD; the last time I thought I
had, I later realized that I had missed a couple of significant
points...

Stu Friedberg
{ames,cmcl2,rutgers}!rochester!stuart
stuart@cs.rochester.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:38:31 GMT
From: eric@hpcilzb.hp.com (Eric Novikoff)
Subject: Re: ANTARES PASSAGE by Michael McCollum

I find Mr. McCollum's writings absorbing and interesting, but I am
disturbed by the rigid male-female roles that he casts his
characters into.  In both PROCYON'S PROMISE and ANTARES DAWN, the
protagonists are strong males accompanied by weak, helpless females.
Hopefully humanity will have evolved beyond the 'need' to oppress
women, minorities, gays, and other non-male WASP groups in the
future.  I also object to his idolizing the monarchic government in
ANTARES DAWN.  Once again, I look to sci-fi as a source of
inspiration for a *better* future, not one of regression.  I would
accept these opinions if the book seemed like a critique of humanity
or the human condition, or if it depicted a devolved future (like
Simak's CITY, etc), but it is far too light and adventurous to be
that meaningful.

Eric Novikoff

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 17:49:21 GMT
From: geac!derek@RUTGERS.EDU (Derek Keeping)
Subject: Michael Moorcock, Dancers at the end of time.

A few years ago a SF book club sent me a series of Moorcock books
titled "Dancers at the end of time". I have since heard that there
is a forth book in the series, but I have no idea of the title.

The main character of the book was Jerry Cornealious (sp?), but the
story didn't seem to be related to any of the other Jerry
Cornealious novels by Moorcock.

I'd really like to get a copy of the forth book if it exists, and
any pointers to the title, publisher, etc would be much appreciated.

Or maybe I was just dreaming?

As usual Thanx in advance.

Derek Keeping
Geac Computers International Inc.
350 Steelcase Road,Markham, Ontario,
CANADA, L3R 1B3
+1 416 475 0525
{mnetor,yetti,utgpu}!geac!derek

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 22:43:17 GMT
From: fiddler%concertina@sun.com (Steve Hix)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

Tim Iverson writes:
> I like Pohl's writing alot, but whenever he tries to describe
> something about computers his ideas are laughable at best.
>
> [ Discussion of Pohl's impossibilities re technology evaporated ]

Wait!  We can't do it (make anything fast enough to do the job)
today.  Or next week.  Or...

Pohl's machines are obviously massively parallel, molecular-level
devices implemented in nano-technological devices.

Given numerous decades and lots of enthusiasm and program-writing
programs (and tools) that *really* work...maybe we can't make
anything that can really do the job as described.  But I wouldn't
want to bet on something equivalent *eventually* being made,
assuming that such devices were useful to enough potential users.
(Probably wouldn't be around to collect if I won the bet, but maybe
not.)

On the other hand, this is better than the sliderules and vacuum
tubes of 40s, 50s, and early 60s SF.

seh

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 00:15:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: HeeChee

I don't know if perhaps it was the time space between readings of
the books, but the HeeChee set seems to me to be another case of an
author trying to keep the ball rolling long after it should have
stopped (a la Herbert's Dune).  I was very impressed by _Gateway_,
and a little less so by _Beyond_the_Blue_Event_Horizon_, and not
much at all by the third book (_HeeChee_Rendezvous_??).  When I saw
a FOURTH book, I said to myself that maybe it would be good, but I
haven't the money to gamble on it right now....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 09:37:14 EST
From: rang%msucps1@cpswh.cps.msu.EDU (Anton Rang)
Subject: Re: E.E. Smith (12:532)

>>Right now I'm about halfway through E.E. "Doc" Smith's lensman
>>series.  This is an absolute classic space opera, which I
>>recommend. The science is somewhat dated (they use the "ether" of
>>space a lot, a theory currently out of style), but the characters,
>>plots are great. Any comments from netland?

I think that the Lensman series is probably the best space opera
around!  I may be somewhat biased due to reading it when I was
young(er), but it treats a lot of ideas well.  One thing I
especially liked about it was Smith's treatment of aliens: there
isn't too much bias against them.  There are several races of
intelligent aliens (*not* with human shape, either), and humans are
not always best at everything--though humans have the best mix of
traits (oh well).  Any comments from others?

>The rest are so similar as to be almost the same book.  The best of
>them is _Galactic Patrol_ which was written first, even though it
>is 3rd in internal chronology.  The others are stamped out with the
>same cooky-cutter mold (Smith even does a self-parody of this by
>having K.K. write a space opera).

I think that the two or three books starting with Galactic Patrol
(and including Gray Lensman and Second Stage Lensman) are probably
the best.  I didn't care for the first book (Triplanetary) as much,
possibly since it's set on Earth in the past/near future and has too
many SF cliches (Atlantis, anyone?).

>You may not like the last of the books, _Masters of the Vortex_.
>It has a different cast of charaters and was written some time
>after the rest.  Smith introduces a new metaphysics (with
>nonlens-aided telepathy and a different "elder race").  MotV should
>not have been placed in the lensman universe; it just clutters it
>up.

I agree.  It's not a bad book, but it doesn't fit with the rest.
All books still heartily recommended, though!

Anton Rang
rang@cps.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 16:06:20 GMT
From: utx1!ashley@RUTGERS.EDU (Ashley Oliver)
Subject: Re: E.E. Smith -- Lensman series

29284843@wsuvm1.BITNET (Andrew Vaught) writes:
> Right now I'm about halfway through E.E. "Doc" Smith's lensman
> series.  This is an absolute classic space opera, which I
> recommend. The science is somewhat dated (they use the "ether" of
> space a lot, a theory currently out of style), but the characters,
> plots are great. Any comments from netland?

Now don't get me wrong, I love these books and have read all of them
more than once, but as you said 'space opera'.

WHAT CHARACTERS, WHAT PLOT?!

[Actually that last is literary hyperbole. There are in fact two
plots, it's just that one of them is repeated for the first six
books. There are also five characters who turn up under literally
thousands of names].

Ashley P Oliver
Racal-Milgo
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
(305) 476 6880
{allegra|codas}!novavax!utx1!ashley

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 01:15:11 GMT
From: tom@vax1.acs.udel.edu (UFFNER)
Subject: Amber Chronology

Last year Kevin Knight <knight@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu> posted an Amber
chronology up to the end of BOA. Has anyone seen an updated version
including _Sign_of_ Chaos_? (Are you listening Kevin?) I still have
the old one if anyone wants it.

tom

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 07:54:05 GMT
From: ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!pbhyc!djo@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan'l
From: DanehyOakes)
Subject: A Basic Library

>Finally, and perhaps most important.  I am looking for author and
>anthology names for a short story (perhaps longer than that?)
>called I believe "MYOB".

The story is actually titled "--And Then There Were None," and was
written by Eric Frank Russell.  The easiest place to find it is in
THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, VOLUME TWO -- but I don't remember
if it's 2A or 2B.  Both volumes are well worth having, for this and
Wilmar Shiras's "In Hiding" and Jack Vance's "The Moon Moth" and so
much more.

(In fact, just for the hell of it: The Roach Basic Science Fiction
Library.  Don't panic, kiddies, it's all available either in
paperback or in SFBC editions -- and the SFBC editions tend to be
very readily available in good used copies.  This is not a "best"
list, but a list of books which no SF library should be without, for
reference; think of it as "books to give someone who wants to know
what SF is all about."  Not best, but representative of what's good.
Here it is:

THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, all volumes, edited by various
   folks.
THE HUGO WINERS, all volumes, edited by Isaac Asimov.
A TREASURY OF GREAT SCIENCE FICTION, edited by Anthony Boucher.
DANGEROUS VISIONS and AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS, edited by Harlan
   Ellison.

There we go: 9 volumes in all, and the *perfect* portable or
giftable -- remember, it's the holiday season, gift for anyone who's
just getting into SF and wants to know what it's all about.  There
are four novels included in the Boucher, but if you want to add a
few, a good selection might be:

THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, by Robert Heinlein
THE DEMOLISHED MAN, by Alfred Bester
COUNT ZERO, by William Gibson
THE LORD OF THE RINGS, by JRR Tolkien
MORE THAN HUMAN, by Theodore Sturgeon
THE DISPOSSESSED and THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, by Ursula K. LeGuin
THE FEMALE MAN, by Joanna Russ
NOVA, by Samuel R. Delany

This brings the total to 20 volumes.  Not everybody likes all these
books and stories, but I'd say just about everybody respects them,
and that they present a fairly accurate image of the range of SF.
Tolkien is in there because (1) I couldn't bear to leave him out,
and (2) somebody who looks into SF this seriously needs to at least
find out what fantasy is about.)

djo@pbhyc

------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 23:38:49 GMT
From: ll-xn!drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Misc questionings

lwv@n8emr.UUCP (Larry W. Virden) writes:
>Finally, and perhaps most important.  I am looking for author and
>anthology names for a short story (perhaps longer than that?)
>called I believe "MYOB".  I seem to remember it being a Golden Age
>writing, by one of the pulp classics perhaps, but not only can I
>not find it in the collections I thought it in, the library
>searches that have been done have come up empty as well.  The basic
>premise is a first contact like story masking a social commentary
>on the USA political/social attitudes.  The title stands for "Mind
>Your Own Business".

I think you are referring to Eric Frank Russell's "And Then There
Were None."  The social system in this story relies on self-interest
and the building up of barter credits in the form of "obs"
(obligations).  The empire/fed types who've come to annex the planet
conjecture at first that the expression MYOB refers to these obs,
only later learning the true meaning of the phrase.

The story has appeared in at least two SF-classic collections.  The
ones I can recall were edited by Ben Bova (or possibly Robert
Silverberg) on the one hand and Fred and Carole Pohl on the other.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
UUCP:  ...{ll-xn,axiom,harvard}!drilex!carols
ARPA:  carols%drilex.UUCP@xn.LL.MIT.EDU
BITNET:  drilex!carols%harvard@HUSC6

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #540
Date: 16 Dec 87 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #540
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 87 0932-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #540
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Dec 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 540

Today's Topics:

             Films - Upcoming Video Releases (2 msgs) &
                     Blade Runner (2 msgs) & La Jetee (2 msgs) &
                     Eliminators & Hello Again & Laserblast &
                     SF Films

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 87 18:30:20 GMT
From: CHAPMAN@kl.sri.com (Walter Chapman)
Subject: Upcoming Video releases

Latest info on upcoming releases:

Appearing in your local video store (l.v.s) on approx. January 29,
1988:
   ROBOCOP
      starring Peter Weller (as you all know, Peter portrayed our
      leader, Buckaroo Banzai, in the last episode based on
      Buckaroo's life -- but that's another story.....)  also
      starring Karen Allen

Appearing in your l.v.s on approx. February 5, 1988:
   JAWS - THE REVENGE
      starring Lorraine Gray, Lance Guest and Michael Caine.
      As the promo says "Featuring gripping new footage not seen
      in the U.S. theatrical release."

All for now.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Dec 87 15:58:30 GMT
From: CHAPMAN@kl.sri.com (Walter Chapman)
Subject: Upcoming Video Release

Coming to your local video store on approx. February 3, 1988:

VOYAGE OF THE ROCK ALIENS
  starring Pia Zadora

  as the promo says:
   A guitar-shaped spaceship streaks through the skies in search of
   the origins of rock n' roll and lands in the town of
   "Speelburgh," U.S.A.  Led by Absid, the alien crew is just in
   time to play at Heidi High's [say that fast three times] school
   dance on Saturday night.  Frankie and his band of bullies, the
   Pack, are not too eager to share the stage and a battle of the
   bands breaks out!

   It's galactic laughter and cosmic chaos as Dee Dee, Frankie's
   girlfriend [[Frankie and Dee Dee?? There are some of us who
   remember this from the first time around]], pursues a singing
   career with the alien rockers, Absid pursues a close encounter
   with Dee Dee, "Chainsaw" pursues a well-tuned tool and the
   sheriff is in hot pursuit of the musical invaders.  Beam yourself
   aboard for the funnest, most entertaining music comedy ever
   launched.

 Cast:  Dee Dee (Pia Zadora)  no surprise here....
        Frankie (Craig Sheffer)
        the Pack (Jimmy and the Mustangs)  who???
        Absid  (Tom Nolan)
        the Sheriff  (Ruth Gordon)

Contains the music video hit "When the Rain Begins to Fall" starring
Jermaine Jackson and Pia Zadora

walter

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  3 Dec 87  11:48:26 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Blade Runner, Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?

I just the the movie and read the book for my english class, and I
have a few questions. It's intersting that in BR the Replicants were
programmed with a 4 year life space, and in DADOES the android cells
couldn't regenerate after 4 years. Also, in BR 2 of the Replicants
demonstrate their immunity to temperaure extremes, one by putting
his hand into liguid nitrogen and the other into boiling water. Yet
they can still feel pain?

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
nutto%UMass.BITNet@wiscvm.wisc.edu
nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 14:38:57 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner, Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?

nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
> It's intersting that in BR the Replicants were programmed with a 4
> year life space, and in DADOES the android cells couldn't
> regenerate after 4 years.

This could be two ways of saying the same thing.

> Also, in BR 2 of the Replicants demonstrate their immunity to
> temperaure extremes, one by putting his hand into liguid nitrogen
> and the other into boiling water. Yet they can still feel pain?

Why not?  Let's assume that replicants feel pain in the same way
humans feel pain i.e. it takes actual damage to the nerve cells
before signals are sent to the brain.  Further if we assume that the
replicant cells are more resistant to damage from temperature than
human, then they should be able to feel boiling heat or freezing
cold without damage and hence without pain.  A human can pass his
hand through a candle flame without damage, but don't try it with a
moth.  So it could be that exposed long enough to the boiling water
pain would result ditto with the cold (but that period of time is
much greater than humans could endure).

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 04:29:50 GMT
From: ciaraldi@cs.rochester.edu (Mike Ciaraldi)
Subject: Anyone Seen _La Jetee_?

For about a year I have been hearing about a French film called _La
Jetee_.  It runs about 30 minutes and is about time travel, or so I
was told.  The neat thing is that most of it is actually made up of
still pictures and narration rather than conventional moving
pictures and dialogue.

Anyway, it came up on cable TV last month and I asked a friend to
tape it for me.  We played back the tape and discovered that we were
missing about the last 2 minutes of the film.  When a movie is only
27 minutes long, that is a lot!

So, I am hoping that someone has seen this movie and can tell me how
it ends.

Therefore, if you have NOT seen it, but think you might, bail out
now before you read the spoilers that follow.

OK, still with me?

As I recall, at the beginning of the movie we see the hero at Orly
Airport where he sees someone die and sees the mysterious woman.

Then they have the war, he gets captured and experimented on.

He goes back in time and meets a mysterious woman, who I think is
the same one he saw at the airport.  They keep meeting, and have
their last meeting in a strange museum.

Then he goes into the future, where they basically tell him to get
lost, but they give him some sort of energy source to take back to
his time so his people can survive and become the future people.

He then realizes that the future people have also been travelling in
time.

And then the tape runs out!!!!

So, what happened?
Does he go back into the past again?
Is the mysterious woman also a time traveller?
Who gets shot at Orly and why?

I know it's a lot to cover in two or three minutes, but it seems to
me all these questions should be answered in the final scenes.

So, if you have the answers to these questions, or can otherwise
tell me how things end up, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Mike Ciaraldi
arpa:  ciaraldi@cs.rochester.edu
uucp:  seismo!rochester!ciaraldi

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 19:48:24 GMT
From: asbed@acrux.usc.edu (Asbed Bedrossian)
Subject: Re: Anyone Seen _La Jetee_?

>So, what happened?  Does he go back into the past again?  Is the
>mysterious woman also a time traveller?  Who gets shot at Orly and
>why?

Boy, talk about missing the proverbial last page. I am almost
tempted to let you see it again. The end is the whole thing almost.
(except for the tender love story)

He goes back in the past, to the time where he saw a man getting
shot in Orly, and finds out he was the one getting shot. (Only after
he does get shot)

It's been a while since I saw this film. I don't remember if the
woman's role was much more than a romantic, inspiring one for the
man.

Asbed Bedrossian
University Computing Services
U of Southern California
(213) 743-4266
ARPA: asbed@oberon.usc.edu
BITNET: asbed@uscvaxq
UUCP: {sdcrdcf, cit-vax}!oberon!asbed

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 87 11:43:36 PST
From: PUGH@nmfecc.arpa
Subject: Tasha Yar is in Eliminators

I was just watching Eliminators on Showtime and noticed that Tasha
Yar from The New Generation was starring in it.  In case you don't
know, Eliminators is an EXTREMELY bad movie about a Mandroid who has
to fight his way to freedom.  Luckily this movie is so bad it is
funny, and you get some glimpses of parts of Ms. Yar that Star Trek
does not show.

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 13:42:05 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: HELLO AGAIN

                            HELLO AGAIN
                  A film review by Mark R. Leeper

          Capsule review:  Director Frank Perry is best at making
     odd, thought-provoking dramas.  His attempt at making a light
     comedy in the Touchstone tradition is less than a roaring
     success.  Shelley Long plays a woman magically brought back
     from the dead who has to get back into life.  Nobody's
     reactions are believable.  Rating: 0.

     A few months ago, when OUTRAGEOUS FORTUNE was released, I wrote
about what I expected would be fondly remembered as "the Touchstone
comedies."  They were a set of formula comedies, but each was fairly
enjoyable.  Well, the formula is already starting to wear a little
thin.  HELLO AGAIN has a below-par script, some spotty acting, and
very little in the way of humor.  For the first eighty minutes or so
the story seems aimless but amiable, then suddenly things do start
to happen, but nothing very good.

     Lucy Chadman (one of a number of nearly identical characters
Shelley Long has played) has a bland existence as the wife of a Long
Island plastic surgeon.  About the only thing really unusual in her
life is the year she was dead before her occult-loving sister
brought her back to life.  The repercussions are not unlike those in
MY FAVORITE YEAR and MOVE OVER, DARLING in which supposedly dead
wives prove to be alive.  Chadman finds her husband has married her
mercenary best friend (played by Sela Ward, who is nowhere nearly as
striking as she was in NOTHING IN COMMON).  People react in
different ways to Chadman's return and each reaction rings false.
This could have been a very emotional comedy, but Susan Isaacs's
script keeps sabotaging itself.  Long's character is supposed to be
incredibly clumsy for no other reason than to throw in a little
gratuitous slapstick.  It may work with some slapstick actors, but
Long is incredibly inept at acting inept.  Her pratfalls all seem
mechanical and staged.  In fact, the film has the feel of having
been written for Chevy Chase and then modified for a female lead.

     What makes the film even more disappointing is the track record
of its director and writer, Frank Perry and Susan Isaacs, who were
also responsible for COMPROMISING POSITIONS.  Perry's earlier works,
incidentally, include films stranger and more memorable than HELLO
AGAIN, including DAVID AND LISA, LADYBUG LADYBUG, THE SWIMMER, MAN
ON A SWING, and RANCHO DELUXE.  In such company HELLO AGAIN will be
quickly forgotten.  Rate it a low 0 on the -4 to +4 scale.

Mark R. Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 87 21:53:38 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Truth about "Laserblast"

malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>daver@sci.UUCP (Dave Rickel) writes:
>>nutto@UMass writes:
>>>Does anyone else remember the movie Laserblast that came out
>>>several years ago?
>>Yeah.  Interesting film.  Good aliens (gumby animation, but fun).
>>The film "starred" Roddy McDowell.  Apparently they didn't have
>>much money to pay him--he was only in the film for 15 minutes.  I
>>saw it at a con, I don't know if it's out on vidiotape or not.
>
>From what I have heard, this picture was made because John Dykstra,
>the original special effects Guru with ILM, was signed on with
>somebody for more than one film.
>
>"Laserblast" came out right after Star Wars became a hit, and it
>was publicized that the FX were by Dykstra.  I suspect that the
>whole point of the film was to try to make some extra dough for
>somebody, by making a cheap film to which they could attach
>Dykstra's good (and Star Wars-connected) name.

Interesting.  A frind of mine worked on "Laserblast", and in fact
portrayed the alien in the opening shots. (Steve Neill, who does
makeup and mechanical FX, but is really a brilliant cinematographer
waiting to be discovered. He wrote and produced "The Day Time
Ended", and has worked on projects like Star Trek I, Ghostbusters,
The Thing, Forbidden Planet, and so on.)

The movie, which is really awful, was done like these cheap SF
movies usually are.  That is, they spent the budget on location
shots and coke and then went back to the principals and told them
that they needed another $250,000 for special effects or the movie
would not sell.  Then they hired Paul Cook to do the turtle-creature
animation, which was somewhat appealing, if not Harryhausen-quality.
In any event, Dykstra never came near this one.

The only name actor in it is Keenan Wynn, not Roddy McDowell.  I
can't figure out how he wound up in it.  It is a very bad movie.

See "The Day Time Ended" if you get a chance.  It is also very bad,
but it is a platform for all the SFX techniques that Steve knew how
to do.  More (and better) stop-motion animation from Paul Cook;
Close-Encounters-like spacecraft, The Vegetable Probe From Another
Reality, green gas, and the immortal line, "It's a space-time warp!"
explaining why everything is going wrong.  There is a hilarious shot
of a bunch of junked spaceships surrounding the house (which is a
Bermuda Triangle in reverse) and in the distance there is a Ryder
rental truck, also presumably lost in space.  The last scene is a
glass shot done my Jim Danforth, the only big name involved in this
one, which shows the "City of the Future" looking like a Frank Lloyd
Wright oil refinery.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 87 19:35:12 GMT
From: uwvax!ncc!alberta!edm!steve@RUTGERS.EDU (Stephen Samuel)
Subject: Re: Why are SF films(in general) a load of rubbish

dagibbs@watmath.UUCP writes:
>From: "ZZASSGL" <ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.uk>
>>What happens in producers' heads when they create films based on
>>SF story lines?  Why do they choose the stories they do? Why do
>>they feel
> In marketing and producing films, they want to reach the widest
> possible audience, and they want a film that all the people will
> be able to understand and enjoy.  So they say "people like neat
> special effects, sf films let me

I think that another part of the problem is that people who
understand Science (and science fiction) reasonably well tend not to
go into the entertainment industry -- they normally end up in
science-related jobs.. This leaves arts-oriented people trying to
understand/do a science-fiction movie...
  Just on the face of it, I think you can see problems..
 I think that this is also part of the problem with the current
Star-trek.  The old star trek was expected to be a big bomb, so the
'normal' group didn't want to touch it this left the field open to
the people who were honest-to- god interested in that sort of stuff.
STTNG, on the other hand, had a guaranteed audience. This atracted a
much larger group of non-science groupies and a LOT of people who
had little understanding of SF and, possibly, less interest in the
old star-trek. I think that it was a big mistake to say that STTNG
would have little to do with the old series, 'cause that attracted
the mayflies.
 I think the reason why many of the best SF shows (esp: ST and Star
Wars) weren't expected to do well was that the normal artsie types
weren't involved.

Stephen Samuel
{ihnp4,ubc-vision,seismo!mnetor,vax135}!alberta!edm!steve
BITNET: USERZXCV@UQV-MTS

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #541
Date: 16 Dec 87 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #541
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 87 0953-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #541
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Dec 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 541

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (13 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 87  09:19 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: star trek / klingon females

Tim Maroney on Klingon females, as best I can remember, writes:

1) Valkris was not a Klingon but a Romulan.  Hmmm.  I disagree - I
remember her as being a Klingon.  My memory could be faulty - is
there anyone out there who has read the novelization, which I
suppose can be the last word on this particular question?

2) Klingon's treat their females as sub-sentient beings.  a) That
doesn't seem to have been stated specifically in Trouble w/
Tribbles.  b) Doesn't mean they are; attitudes may have become more
enlightened by the time of the movies and STTNG.  [Altho one would
never know from the female created for Worf - language problems
aside (for all we know GRRRR is Klingonese for "hiya, stud"), what's
with the standard porn-movie-position-a of her down on her hands and
knees "ready for action"?  I think the sexism in ST bothers me more
than the racism!]  c) I believe it was stated in Day of the Dove
that Mara was an exception to the general rule.  And unfortunately,
no matter how much we may dislike particular episodes of ST, old or
new, having been aired they *are* part of the established universe.
Tribbles does not directly contradict Day of the Dove; since a
Klingon female was shown in that role, it must be taken that they
are sentient beings and do occasionally serve on starships.

Sexism in ST: need I state the obvious?  It surprises me how little
things have improved in twenty years.

Sexism on Vulcan/patriarchy vs. matriarchy: read the fanzines; cases
have been made both ways.  It would seem illogical for Vulcans to
deny the talents of half of their race.  I don't think we have been
shown enough Vulcans to decide definitively.  (But we can always
argue about it).

susan de guardiola
degsusm@yalevm.bitnet

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 20:08:53 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Vulcans logical?  HA!

> Vulcans are tight-ass ultra-rationalists, [...]

Tim simply mentioned this on the way to other points, but it reminds
me: Does anybody else out there feel that the Vulcans' pretense to
be "logical" or "rational" is laughably thin and blatantly false?

Near as I can tell, when a Vulcan says that something is
"illogical", it means that the Vulcan in question disaproves of that
something, and that's *all* it means.

Whew.  Glad I got that off my chest.  Maybe I picked the wrong week
to give up asbestos underwear.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 87 14:57:49 PLT
From: Andrew Vaught <29284843%WSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: ST: Warp factors vs. speed

  I seem to recall an old Star Trek `Technical Data' manual
supposedly accidentally transmitted by the Enterprise, and just as
accidentally received here on Earth. Anyhow, it had a whole list of
Starship schematics, scout class, dreadnoughts with three warp
engines, Uniform patterns, all kinds of interesting stuff. Anyhow,
at one point there was a graph of warp factors plotted against
speed. The plot was linear on a logarithmic scale, implying a
power-law relationship. The slope of the line on the graph is the
same as the power you raise the warp number to, to get actual speed.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 19:32:40 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: If you don't like it here, go back to Romulus!

The "Ferringi are really Jews" message generated a lot of
interesting responses.  One little point needs to be added: TV shows
*have* to oversimplify their characters because (a) they only have
48 minutes to tell a story and (b) any sort of complexity will lose
your audience.  Of course, TV producers vary in the degree to which
they resort to stereotypes as a means of simplification; I won't
repeat my opinion on where Gene Roddenberry stands on this scale.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 17:38:52 GMT
From: wes@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

davidg@killer.UUCP (David Guntner) writes:
>> I think you're forgetting what we saw of the relationship between
>> Sarek and Amanda.  "My wife, attend!" and all that.

I think that this is more due to Amanda's race <Earthling> than any
male dominance.

>> And by the way, though T'Pau was a galactically known and
>> respected leader, there was no implication that she ruled Vulcan.
> I would like to point out that Leonard Nimoy himself has stated
> that Vulcan is a matriarchy (sp?), and that the leader of the
> planet was a woman.  He cited "Amok Time" as the episode which
> made this clear.

Hmmmmm...mentally reviewing the episode, I can find some support for
that theory.  Why did the *woman* have the right to challenge, but
not the man?

In addition, if you consider the history of Vulcan, a matriarchy
makes sense.  Given the long warlike tradition of Vulcan, the women
would be the first to embrace logic and reason; the men would be too
busy killing each other.  Once the men 'saw the light', it only
makes sense that they would honor the women who made this happen.
This would also explain the severe effects of pon farr on Vulcan
males; they are experiencing a release of the warlike emotions they
had so much trouble conquering earlier in race memory.  The women,
who had developed logic earlier in this scenario, had no such
physiological problems.

Logical, no?

Wes Morgan
UUCP: !{rutgers, rayssd, uunet, cbosgd}!ukma!ukecc!wes
ARPANET: wes@engr.uky.edu
BITNET: wes%ukecc.uucp@ukma
CSNET: wes@engr.uky.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 16:08:03 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Smoke Greyflame) writes:
> Aargh.  This causes far more problems than it solves.  If there is
> only a narrow break in the shields, then there is only a limited
> amount of places to which you can transport to when the shields
> are up, unless you can somehow tell the beam to take a left after
> going through the crack in the shields.  Also, why don't we hear,
> "Target for the transporter shield break with the photon
> torpedoes."?

This is all posited on the premise of a FIXED break in the shield,
rather than a variable one.  It is my assumption that this break is
engineered for the use of the transporters and weapons and can be
moved, destroyed and created at will.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 01:14:39 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG racism, bunch of crap!!

graham@drcvax.arpa writes:
>>Do you think greed is the only resemblance?  A race of short,
>>untrustworthy, greedy interstellar traders with big noses, big
>>ears and bad complexions, whose private ways are mysterious to us
>>decent folk, seems to touch anti-Semitic stereotypes at more than
>>one point.  Eight points, in fact.
>
>First, let's clear up the vocabulary: "Semitic" does not refer only
>to Jews, it also refers to all of the Semitic people, which
>includes Arabs.  Don't take my word, consult Webster.

OK, I will.  Webster's Third New International Dictionary,
Merriam-Webster on anti-semitism: "1: hostility toward Jews as a
religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social,
economic, and political discrimination - compare RACISM 2:
opposition to Zionism: sympathy with opponents of the state of
Israel" No third definition.

The term "anti-Semitism" was coined in the 19th century by European
Jews to refer specifically to anti-Jewish attitudes.  You know not
whereof you speak.

How about responding to my eight points of similarity with
anti-Semitic stereotypes (nine if you count the accent, but that's
not specifically anti-Semitic)?  No?  You would rather just make up
new meanings for well-established words and refer to what I say as a
bunch of crap?  OK fine, you say a lot more about yourself than
about me by doing so.

>Second, the writers just can't win with some people.  No matter who
>they designed, no matter what kind of alien they came up with,
>those who want to see racism will see it.  Just as in the McCarthy
>era, people saw Communists coming out from the woodwork, people
>will se racism in every nook and cranny if they are looking for it,
>even though it really isn't there in many cases.  [Yes, I agree it
>is there in many cases too, but not in ST:TNG.]

No, there are alien races I think have been developed in a
non-racist fashion, just not in Star Trek.  And would you mind
keeping the insults down to a dull roar?  I'll do the same if you
will, but if you keep calling me a crap-filled McCarthyite, expect
me to continue to point out that you are an irrational buffoon.

>>(In case you couldn't tell, this kind of species-ism is one of my
>>pet peeves in fantasy and science fiction in general.
>
>Yes, and one of mine is people who see racism in everything.  I
>admit freely that there are serious problems with racism in our
>world, problems that no people ought to be burdened with.  HOWEVER,
>seeing racism in everything, like seeing Communists under every
>bed, won't solve those problems, it aggravates them.

Irrational knee-jerking against detailed accusations of racism is
the biggest reason that racists like Reagan are able to get away
with it today.  In this whole article, you only slung mud and tried
to obscure the issue; you didn't respond to even one of my detailed
points.

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 08:40:44 GMT
From: cs161aav@sdcc18.ucsd.edu (Dirk Gently)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

mss2@sphinx.uchicago.edu (The Chameleon) writes:
> The real question is this:
> Picard beams on board the Stargazer.  The Ferrengi captain says
> "Shields up."  gloats a while, then beams out _without lowering
> the shields_.  Picard tries to attack the Enterprise, says
> "Shields up" again.  Riker convinces him to come to his senses,
> and then they beam him back to the Enterprise.  Again, this is
> without lowering the shields.  Why are the shields raised twice
> and never lowered, yet this does not interfere with the
> transporters except where the plot calls for it?

   It seems to me that nobody can be transported into a ship that
has its shields up (In ARENA of TOS, Sulu told Kirk he would have to
lower shields to transport up the landing party). BUT, a person can
be transported out of a shielded ship if there is a signal to lock
on to. This explains why the Enterprise couldn't beam anyone to the
Stargazer, and why Bok could beam out. This also explains why Picard
didn't need to lower the shields to beam out.  It was at this point
that he activated his communicator, thus giving the Enterprise a
signal to lock on to.

   Comments, anyone?????

Ron Nakada

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 15:54:39 EST
From: Kathy Godfrey <kgodfrey@PROPHET.BBN.COM>
Subject: ST:TNG in reruns until sweeps in February?

I've heard from a usually reliable source that beginning with the
two-part rerun of the premiere episode, Star Trek: The Next
Generation will be in reruns until the February sweeps (ratings
period).  Does anyone on the net have more/better information?

Kathy Godfrey
kgodfrey@bbn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 13:21:47 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: City on the Edge...

That poster mangled the original script almost as much as
Roddenberry did!!!  The reason that they had Kirk stop McCoy was
that if Spock had stopped McCoy from saving Edith while Kirk was
willing to give everything up for her, then it would become
impossible to accept Kirk as the prime mover in the series, and that
was a step they were not prepared to take.  I agree with the drug
abuse aspect, though--except, every other time we saw a Starfleet
officer flipped out, there was some reason.  Decker had killed his
crew, Tracy had the secret of immortality to deliver to Earth, etc.
Beckwith had no redeeming qualities--I mean, he even shot at Kirk
with a phaser set to kill!  How nasty can you get???

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 21:13:40 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

wes@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) writes:
>[...] if you consider the history of Vulcan, a matriarchy makes
>sense.  Given the long warlike tradition of Vulcan, the women would
>be the first to embrace logic and reason; the men would be too busy
>killing each other.  Once the men 'saw the light', it only makes
>sense that they would honor the women who made this happen.  This
>would also explain the severe effects of pon farr on Vulcan males;
>they are experiencing a release of the warlike emotions they had so
>much trouble conquering earlier in race memory.  The women, who had
>developed logic earlier in this scenario, had no such physiological
>problems.  Logical, no?

Logical, no.

Not that it's a bad rationalization, but it isn't plausible,
logical, nor reasonable.  Not that Vulcans are a very logical people
anyway, despite claims made about them.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 11:50 EST
From: <GILL%QUCDNAST.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: General Star Trek

     Just some background info on some of the previous Klingon
females seen in Star Trek.

     As stated in some previous messages, Valkris (from ST- III:The
Search for Spock) is a Klingon.  She is the head of her bloodline,
intent on avenging the dishonour perpetrated by her brother, Kiosan.
Her bloodline wins back the honour with the delivery of the
information on the Genesis device to Commander Kruge.  (Taken from
'Star Trek III:The Search for Spock' - Vonda McIntyre.)

     Mara was obviously the first Klingon female shown.  There is
good reason for the deference shown to her by the other Klingons in
'Day of the Dove'.  Mara's brother rules the second most important
planet in the Klingon Empire, and in much of the Empire, succession
is through the sister's son.  On top of that, Kang is
Emperor-designate of the Klingon Empire!  As such, the marriage with
Mara is one of consolidation of power, as well as of love.  (Taken
from 'Pawns and Symbols' - Majliss Larson.)

     The various Star Trek novels have a lot of very interesting
things in them!

     Pardon my cynicism, but I would never have taken the Ferengi to
be in anyway a portrayal of a Jewish stereotype.  I thought the
portrayal was much more that of the typical 'Money is God!'
American! :-) Actually, according to Gene Roddenberry, the Ferengi
are much more similar to the Yankee merchant captains of the 19th
century.  Any cargo for a profit.

Arnold Gill
Queen's University at Kingston

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 87 01:18:10 EST
From: Martin Agnew <ACDAGNEW%UOGUELPH.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek

   I actually like STTNG, maybe even more so (blasphemy I know)
than the original. It has its flaws, the civilian crew and Wesley
especially, but overall I like it!  Ah well, to each their own I
suppose. The Ferengi are useless, though the 1st officer showed
some hope for the race in general.
   LeForge needs to get a new visor, one that doesn't remind me of a
hair comb...  I want more Worf, I love his humour...
   Next...?

Martin Agnew

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #542
Date: 16 Dec 87 1022-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #542
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 87 1022-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #542
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Dec 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 542

Today's Topics:

               Miscellaneous - Speciesism (7 msgs) &
                               Conventions (4 msgs) & 
                               Quote Request &
                               SF-Lovers in Locus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 87 17:29:58 GMT
From: mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> Jean Lorrah, I am told, [...] tried to rationalize the obvious
> lack of diversity in alien races by saying that humans had spread
> out over their planet to an unusual though not unique degree, and
> that the more common pattern was for sentient life to cluster in
> one geographical area.

Poul Anderson came up with a better "rationalization" for the
stereotyping of aliens in his own "Technic" universe.  In a story
set in the trader era, one of the characters reminds himself that
the fact that aliens appear shallow to humans is a defect of human
perception, not of alien constitution.  The point is that if an
alien species is very *different*, there will be only a shallow
overlap between that species' variation and humanity's.  Further,
humans will perceive only the shallow overlap, and will largely
ignore the incomprehensible part of a hypothetical alien's behavior.
Wodenites are slow and Cynthians are mercurial, but that's not *all*
there is to them.

> [...Jean Lorrah's point....]  is not bad as a rationalization - it
> does make some sense - but a rationalization is exactly what it
> is.  It is not how the aliens were conceived and it has not
> entered into how they have been portrayed.

This is exactly right.

In ST:TNG, the characters seem to really think that alien races are
shallow and one-dimentional, making Riker in particular look like a
pompous, prejudiced ass in the episodes I've seen.

It would take only a small shift in emphasis to repair this: just
have the characters acknowledge the limits of *their* perceptions as
the culprit in finding aliens shallow, so that we aren't constantly
bludgeoned over the head with only remaining plausible explanation:
that it is a failure of the writer's imagination, or of the
character's empathy.  This is bad because invoking this explanation
jerks one out of the story line, either by reminding us of the
author, or making a character unsympathetic.

(The above shouldn't be taken to imply I think Anderson is a
paragon...  he's just a better and more careful writer than any I've
seen on ST:TNG.)

Note that this discussion also relates to the
fairly-recently-discussed silly tendency for SF authors to create
"The X planet of Y", where X takes on values of Earth extremes which
hold for the entire planet.  As in "The Ice Planet of Blog", or "The
Ocean Planet of Sloshia."

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 03:53:22 GMT
From: ames!lll-crg!hoptoad!tim@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Tim Maroney)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF

barry@beatnix.UUCP (Barry Needham) writes:
>You might try _The Mote In Gods Eye_ by Niven & Pournelle.  You
>probally will not like it for other reasons but it has the best
>thought-out aliens that I've seen.

Excellent recommendation! I read it about 13 years ago and enjoyed
it a great deal.  When I was trying to think of clear exceptions to
the general racism of SF, the only two that came to mind were "Mote"
and (also by Niven) the Kzinti.  The Kzinti definitely have
distinctive attributes, but within the race there is a great deal of
variation in personality.  In fact, although the authoritarian
Kzinti system tries to suppress individuality by making individual
names a prize for long and faithful service, this is inadequate to
suppress the inherent diversity of a sentient species.  I think
Niven would likely be in sympathy with my general line of
presentation on this topic.

What other exceptions to stereotyped aliens are there?  (And if
anyone mentions Brin, I'm gonna start shooting....)

Tim Maroney
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 21:05:17 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> When I was trying to think of clear exceptions to the general
> racism of SF, the only two that came to mind were "Mote" and (also
> by Niven) the Kzinti.  The Kzinti definitely have distinctive
> attributes, but within the race there is a great deal of variation
> in personality.

Interesting to note, however, that Kzinti females are, in fact,
non-sentient.  Not that Niven seems to have a bias, since if I'm
remembering correctly, it is the other way around with the Grogs.

(One would think a priori that if either male or female were to be
non-sentient in a two-sexed species with intelligent members, the
males would be most likely non-sentient, but with so few actual
examples this guess is premature.)

I'll reinforce an earlier point I made, and say that the Kzinti can
easily appear stereotyped, since most Kzinti are far more agressive
than most humans.  On the other hand, they display a range of
agressiveness from suicidally rabid through (don't say this to a
Kzin, of course) almost docile.  The point is that all Kzinti don't
look alike to me.

> What other exceptions to stereotyped aliens are there?  (And if
> anyone mentions Brin, I'm gonna start shooting....)

What, just because his dolphins seem like humans in fish suits, and
his simps seem like humans in hairy suits, and his Tybrimi seem like
humans in alien suits, and etc, etc?  (Actually, they don't seem all
too *narrow*, they just seem all too *human*.  Or so it seems to
me.)

Anyhow, I'll mention Poul Anderson again (consider Fire Time as an
example), and Sherri Tepper (drat, probably sp, you know, the
trilogy of trilogies about the True Game, and check out the aliens
in her latest, "After Long Silence"), Jo Clayton (though not Great
Lit-Ra-Chure, the diadem series had plenty of aliens with plenty of
variation (within a biped theme, though, so maybe this borders on
the too-human-aliens problem, as perhaps does Zelazny, though when
you consider the alien Pi'an gods Sandow deals with, perhaps he
doesn't make too bad a showing)), and of course Brust (with the
Dragaera), and Haldeman (with "Enemy Mine" and others), Tanith Lee
(consider the "aliens" presented in the Flat Earth series, or in the
Cyrion stories), and...  uh...

Hmmmmm... Two things occur to me.  I seem to be making a
random-ordered-list of my favorite books, so I guess I don't like
stereotyped aliens much.  And second, while the practice may be
common, it doesn't really seem all *that* common, at least not in
the 10% allowed for by Sturgeon's Law.

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 22:00:06 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

There is some reason to think that non-human species would, in fact,
*seem* to be all very similar in personality *to humans*.  Of
course, to the aliens, the humans (and every *other* species) would
seem equally similar, while their race would exhibit a wide range of
diversity.

Of course, for this to really work, the aliens have to be, by human
standards, weirder than most fictional aliens are.  Maybe weirder
than we can imagine.  Doing good aliens is *hard*.

Actually, Tolkien didn't do too badly at it.  Galadriel and Legolas,
for example, are distinctly different from each other, yet still
recognizably different from humans in a similar sort of way.
Likewise Gimli and Bombur.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:46:41 GMT
From: jmm@thoth8.berkeley.edu.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>Of course, for this to really work, the aliens have to be, by human
>standards, weirder than most fictional aliens are.  Maybe weirder
>than we can imagine.  Doing good aliens is *hard*.

But doing good humans is even harder than doing good aliens.  Most
people have a good idea of the range of human experience, emotions,
reactions, and what people would and wouldn't do in a given
situation.  Readers know when writers are failing at human
characterization.  (Or perhaps I should say they have strong
opinions on the subject |-) ).  When you're talking about aliens,
you get to write your own rules.  Also, if your alien is different
enough, you can concentrate on the differences to distract your
readers from noticing that they don't really care about the alien as
a character, but only as a piece of green meat.

James Moore
...!ucbvax!jade!thoth8!jmm

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 12:15:43 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Fidel Castro)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF

   The late, great Alice Sheldon (better known to readers as "James
Tiptree, Jr.") had a remarkable knack for writing from the alien's
point-of-view ("Love is the Plan, the Plan is Death", or her first
novel), and also created some highly original aliens.  Her novella
"Collision", which appeared in IAsfm two years ago, was notable for
presenting an accurate representation of the linguistic problems
that would arise in first contact.

   Of course, her work seems rather obviously influenced by
Cordwainer Smith, another master at creating original aliens.

   Brian Aldiss' _The_Dark_Light_Years_ featured aliens who were
misunderstood by humans because excrement had an important
ceremonial/religious/philisophical function in their lives.

   Terry Carr's short story "The Dance of the Changer and Three"
depicts some human colonists struggling to understand why some
aliens wiped out a settlement, and ultimately failing--the aliens'
motivation is beyond human logic.

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 10:52:23 GMT
From: gruber@parcvax.xerox.com (Robert E. Gruber)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> What other exceptions to stereotyped aliens are there?  (And if
> anyone mentions Brin, I'm gonna start shooting....)

Well... I am curious why you single out Brin as someone not to
mention.  He certainly isn't the first author I would think of
as someone who doesn't use stereotyped aliens, but he isn't the
worst abuser of stereotypes by any means.

I have read _Sundiver_, _Stardide Rising_, and _The Uplift War_. . .
each of his alien races has certain stereotypical mannerisms
(neo-dolphins like dirty limericks, neo-chimps can't stop scratching
themselves in public, Gubru hop around like skitish birds, etc.) so
in this sense Brin is not an "exception to the rule."  Within a
given race, however, there is a huge variance amoungst the members
of the race. He did this best with the dolphins in _Stardide
Rising_, I would say.  In this sense I would argue that he is
avoiding species-ism fairly well.

Of course, on the other side of the coin, humans are made out to be
a special race. . . making Brin a human-chauvanist pig, I suppose.
Having a special race is a useful plot device, and it makes things
interesting for us human readers if the race is human, so this
didn't really bother me.

Bob Gruber
ARPA: gruber.pa@xerox.com
UUCP: ...ucbvax!xerox.com!gruber.pa
      ...{other arpa host}!xerox.com!gruber.pa
      ...ucbvax!hplabs!parcvax!gruber

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 87 21:45:24 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: chuq@plaid.sun.com
Subject: WorldCon and others (Request for info)

For information about the 1989 WorldCon write to:
   Rick Katze
   c/o Noreascon 3
   Box 46, MIT Branch Post Office
   Cambridge, MA 02139 USA
They have a eMail address I don't know off hand. The date in Aug 31
to Sep 4, 1989 in the Hynes Convention Center in Boston, MA.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 16:50:38 GMT
From: dee@cca.cca.com (Donald Eastlake)
Subject: Re: WorldCon and others (Request for info)

loeb@BOURBAKI.MIT.EDU writes:
>For information about the 1989 WorldCon write to:
>   Rick Katze
>   c/o Noreascon 3
>   Box 46, MIT Branch Post Office
>   Cambridge, MA 02139 USA
>They have a eMail address I don't know off hand. The date in Aug 31
>to Sep 4, 1989 in the Hynes Convention Center in Boston, MA.

email addresses are
   Internet:
      noreascon3@ringwld.UUCP
      ringwld!noreascon3@CCA.CCA.COM
      [decvax|linus]!cca!ringwld!noreascon3
   GEnie(tm):
      NOREASCON3
   CompuServ(tm):
      76107,270
   These email addresses are intended for routine inquiries,
comments, and correspondence.  They are not for business and credit
card purchases and the like will not be accepted electronically.

   (Rick Katze is corporate counsel and in charge of advertising for
Progress Reports for Noreascon 3, so you might want to write to
"Noreascon Three, Attn: Rick Katze, ..." if you have a legal
question or are asking about or sending in an advertisement for a
Progress Report.  But there is really no reason to address material
to any specific person.  Mail is picked up from the box and as many
copies are made as necessary to get it to everyone on the Noreascon
Three committee that needs to see it.
   (Sending something to "X, c/o Y", implies that it is personal
correspondence for X that you are asking Y to pass on.  That is the
wrong thing for anything officially to do with Noreascon Three.)

Donald E. Eastlake, III
P. O. Box N
MIT Branch P. O.
Cambridge, MA 02139-0903 USA
+1 617-492-8860
ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM
usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 06:20:37 GMT
From: terminus!bicker@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: I-CON VII Convention

I-CON VII is coming.  Harlan Ellison is confirmed, and potential
media guests include Patrick (Captain Jean-Luc Picard) Stewart, and
Sylvester (Doctor Who) McCoy.  I-CON always presents the best SF and
fantasy films of the past year and old favorites, too.  Surrounding
Stony Brook are several research center; those, combined with the
faculty of a major Science/Technology University make for and
extensive and interesting day of panels and presentations.  For SF
fans, writers and artists abound.

For now, I'll agree to act as the point-of-contact between the net
and the I-CON Committee.  If you wish me to relay requests for info
to them, e-mail them to me.

AT&T Bell Laboratories Semantic Engineering Center
...ihnp4!hoqam!bicker
(201) 949-5850

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 19:53:12 GMT
From: baycon@hpcupt1.hp.com (Baycon 88)
Subject: BayCon gets an email address

BayCon has gained access to the net.

email addresses are  (ignore the header..)
   Internet:
      baycon%hpda@hplabs.HP.COM
      [uunet|sun|hplabs]!hpda!baycon

   These email addresses are intended for routine inquiries,
comments, and correspondence.  They are not for business, use the US
mail address for that.

   Email to BayCon will be forwarded to the appropriate parties for
comment as soon as possible...

Looking forward to much discussion,
baycon

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 20:53:00 GMT
From: inmet!bruce@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Who said this?

Long ago I read or heard or hallucinated a quote from some famous
science fiction writer. The quote was approximately:

   "The role of science fiction is not to predict the future,
    but to prevent it."

Can anyone quote this more precisely, and tell me who said it, and
when?

Bruce Taylor
Intermetrics

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 87 7:13:06 CST
From: Rich Zellich <rzellich@almsa-1.arpa>
Subject: SF-Lovers in Locus blurb

Did anyone else notice the publishers ad for Bill Baldwin's
"Galactic Convoy" on page 69 of the December Locus?  For the usual
blurb/quotation from a reviewer or other author, they have:

   "Lots of action...a perfect example of space
   opera...incredibly entertaining."
            --"SF-Lovers Digest,"Rutgers.ARPA. on
              The Helmsman

[the reference to The Helmsman is because Galactic Convoy is a
sequel or continuation story.]

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 16-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #543
Date: 16 Dec 87 1254-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #543
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 16 Dec 87 1254-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #543
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 16 Dec 1987   Volume 12 : Issue 543

Today's Topics:

               Television - Old SF TV Shows (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 15:16:00 GMT
From: moss!mhuxa!bwr@RUTGERS.EDU (Bruce Reisman)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>  I also forgot to mention
>  Rocky Jones:
>  I don't remember much about it but I saw "Airplane" - the funny
>one- this weekend and one of the secondary actors in the control
>tower was a regular.

THANKS JERRY!

   Nobody I've talked to remembers Rocky Jones, I'd started to
believe I'd just dreamed up those childhood memories of Rocky Jones,
Professor Newton, Bobby, Venus ...  'Twas my favorite Saturday
morning fare ...

Bruce W. Reisman
AT&T Bell Laboratories
200 Laurel Avenue   MT 3G-124
Middletown, NJ   07748
ihnp4!mtfmi!bwr
201/957-6533

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  9 Dec 87  10:31:12 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Starblazers, Space:1999, Galactica, etc.

I agree with what traveller@waikato.s4cc.symbolics.com said about
Battlestar Galactica and Space:1999, although I enjoyed the first
season of 1999 much more than the second.My favorite episode was
DRAGON'S DOMAIN, it was spooky, eerie, and menacing.

I was fortunate enough to see 2 of the other Starblazer/Space
Cruiser Yamato movies uncut and in Japanese. The first movie was the
Gamalon story.In the second movie half the main characters were
killed off and the Yamato/Argo was destroyed, but the Japanese
viewers were so outraged they demanded that a sequel be made. The
third movie dealt with the Comet empire. The fourth was about
Desslok, now a friend of the Earth, fighting a super-powerful alien
race to protect his new planet and losing, apparently. The fifth and
last saw the reincarnation of Captain Avatar, explanation of the
Biblical flood, destruction of the Yamato, and the wedding of
Wildstar and Nova.  I'm not going to give a plot synopsis because I
don't want to SPOIL it too much and it would be far too long.

Anybody remember The Tomorrow People?

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
BITNet: nutto@UMass
ARPA: nutto%UMass.BITNet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 17:41:39 GMT
From: rochester!ritcv!pxd3563@RUTGERS.EDU (Patrick A. Deupree)
Subject: Re: Blake's, all 7 of them!

I believe that Blake appeared in another episode in the third
season.  However, the appearance was very, very brief (like a couple
of seconds).

Patrick Deupree

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 87 15:31:23 EST
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa (Freedman)
To: RP@oz.ai.mit.edu
Subject: Old SF Shows

  What happened to some of the actors from the "OLD SHOWS"(Tom
Corbett etc)?

  Well, I am glad you asked me that, Son. As I mentioned in my first
posting I saw one from Rocky Jones in "Airplane" and I recognized
him as a supporting player I've seen in movies and tv for the last n
years.

 I got this from my sister's Star Trek book:

Remember the Star Trek episode with Jack The Ripper - the one where
it turns out that Jack The Ripper was actually a strange alien being
who followed humans out to the stars.

Well, the actor that played Hengist - the weasily little guy whose
body was host to Jack The Ripper apparently was a regular on Tom
Corbett, Space Cadet.

Doesn't anybody besides me remember the TV Flash Gordon or Commander
Cody - you know the guy with the rocket on his back.??

Jerry Freedman, Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa
(617)271-4563

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 04:33:44 GMT
From: ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet)
Subject: Re: More on Obscure TV SF!!!!

I'm not really sure if these are S.F. shows,
but does anyone besides me remember them?

1. Shazam( or was it called Captain Marvel?)
( Live action program)
   what I remember is that this kid named Billy Batson could turn
   into this mythological hero named Captain Marvel, by saying
   'SHAZAM', and then he would be transformed by this bolt of
   "magical" lightning.  I remember the word was supposed to stand
   for letters of mythical heroes which Captain Marvel had the
   attributes of, something like:

      Solomon-?
      Hercules- Strength?
      Atlas- Stamina?
      Zeus- Wisdom?
      A-?- ?
      Mercury- Speed?

   I also remember that there was another mythical "super hero",
   called Isis, who was supposed to be some female goddess or
   something or other, but all she could do was float, and command
   the wind or something like that.  The Shazam series ran on CBS I
   think, and NBC not long ago tried to do a cartoon version, with a
   bunch of other heros added in.

2.  An animated series called BATMAN AND THE SUPER SEVEN
   The Batman part of the show wasn't to good , in my opinion, but I
   remember some pretty interesting characters from the show, but
   just vaguely.  I remember there was a Black woman who could
   shrink, married to a black guy who could stretch his body.  there
   was also a part about a spaceship, piloted, I think, by people
   who were supposed to be Mythological gods ?

I'm just curious as to whether anyone remembers these.

Tony B.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 00:55:54 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim )
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

jfjr@mbunix (Freedman) writes:
>   I don't know if that many of you are old enough to remember
>these.  If you remember Howdy Doody you might.
>
>  Captain Video
>  Tom Corbett and the Space Cadets

If we are going to mention these, don't forget "Space Patrol" still
seen occasionally on "Night Flight".


J. J. Whelan

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 13:34:00 GMT
From: jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa (Jerome Freedman)
Subject: Re:Old SF shows

This discussion of old SF TV shows has inspired me.

Who remembers the INVADERS. A man has seen a flying saucer, vanguard
of an invading force. These aliens look like us but when killed they
disintegrate. He must warn the world - no one believes him, it's hard
to collect evidence and there are already aliens in positions of
power. Starred Roy Thinnes who lately could be seen on a desert
island advertising aspirin.

There was another show whose name I can't remember. The hero had
something in his blood that made him immortal. All the powerful
people in the world were out to dissect him.

Jerry Freedman, Jr
jfjr@mitre-bedford.arpa
(617)271-4563

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 01:27:00 GMT
From: celerity!jjw@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim )
Subject: Re: Land of the Lost

Wahl.es@XEROX.COM writes:
>Actually, it was the last episode of the first or second season,
>"Full Circle" that showed the Marshalls getting home -- by bringing
>themselves in at an earlier time period.

It was the end of the first season, thereby making the season a
complete story.  The second season had some sort of lame excuse for
them being caught again and just didn't have the credibility or
originality of the first season.  In the third season the father was
replaced by an uncle and an explanation was given that the father
had disappeared trying to get back.  I had a real problem
understanding how these "random" openings between universes seemed
to always select members of this one family.

Apparently, I was older than many of the others who watched this
since I watched it with my sons (they were probably about 7 and 10
at the time).  I thought the first season was one of the the best TV
SF shows ever, but thought the second and third seasons were just
excuses to re-use some of the dinosaur footage.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87  13:19:48 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: More old TV sf

LENSMAN: I have read Triplanetary and First Lensman and was
fortunate enough to see the movie uncut, in Japanese. I thouroughly
enjoy E.E. Doc Smith's work. The movie Lensman had the most amazing
computer graphics I have ever seen in a cartoon.

FLASH GORDON: I also remember the half-hour episodes that were shown
on Saturday afternoons. There were 2 series, one before and one
after the downfall of Ming. Animation was nice, but the plots were
kind of cheesy.

VOYAGERS: Was this a Doctor Who ripoff or what? "A group of
super-intelligent beings with the power of time travel. One rebels
and picks up a human companion before being recaptured and put on
trial by his fellows." Yeuch.

BATTLE OF THE PLANETS: One of the very first "sf" cartoons I ever
watched.  I like it even to this day(this day being the last time it
was on a few years ago). It seemed to be the seed for other Japanese
cartoons such as Force Five, Tranzor Z, and Voltron.

Who remembers Force Five, Tranzor Z, and Voltron anyway?

THE PHOENIX: The pilot was very good and mysterious. The series
unfortuanetly went downhill very quickly, since "endless quest"
shows very seldom work out.

What about The Hulk or Otherworld?

LAND OF THE LOST: In the last episode I think that the 2 kids were
with their uncle in Enic's chamber in the Sleestak city.  They had
gained some control over a time doorway and were watching themselves
fall down the waterfall again and again. I don't know if they ever
made it back.

A SPACEMAN IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT: I think this was a Disney Sunday
movie.  In the near future an astronaut and his android look-alike
pilot their ship "Stardust" at the speed of light and end up helping
King Arthur against Merlin. Quite cute and funny.

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
BITNet: nutto@UMass
ARPA: nutto%UMass.BITNet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
      nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 10:12:33 ECT
From: John <AS0JHC%BINGVMA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Old T.V. shows...

    I am suprised no one has mentioned Ultraman (Japanese). It was on
in early to mid seventies. About superhuman, giant aliens, one of
which accidently killed a human, so he gave him his life. As a
result, the human could change to this alien, Ultraman, to fight all
sorts of monsters and other aliens. All this took place in Tokyo, of
course, so you can imagine the monsters he fought. Also,
periodically, there appeared a Captain Ultraman, so Ultraman could
have been an alien rank?? Have several pop-up books from this
series, in Japanese, of course.

John H. Cummings
Programmer/Analyst
Academic Support / Computer Center
State University of New York (SUNY)
Binghamton, New York, 13901
AS0JHC at BINGVMA

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 07:35:03 GMT
From: ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet)
Subject: Re: Old TV shows

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (Fidel Castro) writes:
>--there were a whole slew of warrior/superhero/scientist series
>produced by Hanna-Barbera, in which any number of alien life-forms
>were blown up.
>
>Ah, those were the days. . . .

Speaking of which, anyone remember:

The Herculoids(I think?)- the series I have in mind is one in which
this primitive family would always fend off alien or nature related
menaces to their world.  They were led by the father ( I think his
name was Zandor(sp?)), and he used a shield and sling shot?  There
was an ape-type creature who could turn into energy?, a flying
creature?  and a dinosaur type creature with armor type skin, who
could fire energy rocks and ram things? who used to protect the
family all the time.

Bird-Man-He had an aerie? in a volcano, and reported to Falcon-7.
He had a bird companion named Avenger who I think could fire energy
beams from his eyes, and Bird-Man would always go around yelling his
own name whenever he did something.
   BIRRRRRRD-MAN.

Frankenstein Jr.?- There was this kid named Buzz? who was the son of
a scientist who invented this robot named Frankenstein Jr.?, and
Buzz and the robot would always go around saving the world.

There was also one I liked, but can't remember the name, in which
three?  super type beings, traveled in a space ship, and went where
they were sent by this command type installation, to fight evil.
There were two men and one woman, one could enlarge his fists, or
maybe his whole body?  one could turn into gas or maybe any type of
element?, and the third might have had some type of mind-powers.

AND MANY, MANY OTHERS.........


Tony B.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 07:47:46 GMT
From: ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet)
Subject: Re: Old T.V. shows...

AS0JHC@bingvma.BITNET (John) writes:
>  I am suprised no one has mentioned Ultraman (Japanese). It was on
>in early to mid seventies. About superhuman, giant aliens, one of
>which accidently killed a human, so he gave him his life. As a
>result, the human could change to this alien, Ultraman, to fight
>all sorts of monsters and other aliens. All this took place in
>Tokyo, of course, so you can imagine the monsters he fought...

Wasn't this the guy who would cross his arms to form sort of a
Pseudo-Plus sign, and a laser like beam( or set of beams) would
shoot out from where the arms crossed?  If it is the same guy,
didn't he have something like a one hour time limit to be the
'alien', and his chest 'bulb' would light up to indicate how much
time he had left?  Didn't he seriously go over this limit one time,
and the aliens took him to their home planet to try and save his
life?  Did the series ever have an ending?  Wasn't there a moderen
cartoon version where the guy was an astronaut who faught monsters
in outer space?

Tony B.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 08:14:25 GMT
From: ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet)
Subject: Re: TV shows

perry@gumby.wisc.edu (Russell Perry) writes:
> I remember that a show called the Herculoids was one of my
>favorites (before Battle of the Planets (G-Force!)).  Does anyone
>else remember it?

I just posted a message concerning the Herculoids, before I was able
to read that post, I didn't think anybody else really liked or
remembered the Herculoids, in fact up until recently, I couldn't
even remember the name.  Wasn't the name of the father of the family
Xandar or Zandar?  and didn't he carry a shield and slingshot?  I'd
forgotten about Gloop and Gleep!  Now I remember they'd always make
funny noises( I think).  You forgot to mention The Ape type creature
who I think was made out of a rock like material.  This was one of
best shows ever in my opinion, it would be great if they could bring
it back!  I think I remember that a few times Hanna-Barbara did
crossover adventures with SpaceGhost appearing on the Herculoid
planet a couple of times, which I thought was great!

Thundarr was also good at times.  I especially liked Ukla the mok
(sp?) and the wizards like Gemini ( with the two heads, one gentle,
one evil) and Mindok( the brain without a real body), Ariel was
sappy at times but at other times she could be quite formidable!  I
really liked the theme music!

Dungeons and Dragons was a very good 'show' at times, my two
favorite episodes being the one with Dekion, of the Celestial
Knights, who was searchin for the ring of power, and the one where
they finally 'DEFEATED' Venger in the Dragon's GraveYard ( with
Tiamat's help of course).

Tony B.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:09:04 GMT
From: bsu-cs!cfchiesa@RUTGERS.EDU (Christopher F. Chiesa)
Subject: One more long-gone show

Anyone remember a movie called _The_Questor_Tapes_ ?  Basic premise:
government project constructs an android according to eccentric
scientist's specs; android appears not to work when completed,
scientists go home. Android then "wakes up," completes his own
construction (staples hair tufts to head, molds ears, etc.),
escapes!  Turns out he is one of a long line of androids watching
over humanity, the "scientist" who "invented" him was the PRECEDING
android, etc. etc...  Problem is, aside from the very general
outlines I don't remember much of this.

C.Chiesa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #544
Date: 17 Dec 87 0820-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #544
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 87 0820-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #544
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 544

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 19:19 EST
From: Willy Swanson <Traveller@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Pardon me if I like Reality better...

>As long as we're on the subject of Ellison screenplays, I recall
>reading (about ten years ago) the original screenplay for "The City
>on the Edge of Forever" of Star Trek fame.  I was rather surprised
>how much the executives screwed with the script, as I had always
>considered this episode one of Star Trek's best.
>...
>The biggest, unforgivable cop-out on the executives' part was this:
>in the original version, Kirk fell in love with Edith Keeler (as he
>did in the final version)--BUT--with this important difference: he
>loved her so much, that he would not let her get run over (Spock
>had to run out and push her in front of the truck, or some such
>thing).  Kirk was willing to let the entire universe change because
>he loved this woman so much, let the Nazis win World War II, let
>the Enterprise and his crew disappear. . .  The execs' verdict?  No
>way, Jose.  Kirk would never sacrifice his ship for some stupid
>*woman*.  The ship comes first of course. . .

Ick.
In my opinion, that would have been a very sick way to end the
episode, totally out of character for either Kirk or Spock, and
totally out of theme for the episode.

Kirk's character was that of a dedicated Starfleet Officer, (not
like Captain Lost-In-Space Picard) dedicated to his duty as Captain
of the Enterprise, to the safety of his ship and his crew, and to
his duty to protect both by whatever means necessary.  As seen in
both The Naked Time and The Paradise Syndrome, it is only through
amnesia or some other debilitating plot-device that he would act on
his emotions rather than on his intellect.

Kirk was fully aware that Edith had to die in order for history to
be corrected, and for his own future to become real once more. He
also loved her, which made his final decision all the more
wrenching.  The way the story ends, with Edith dying as a result of
a natural accident, and Kirk being forced, by his need to restore
things to the way they once were, to stand by and watch without
acting, is one of the strongest moments of the series. Edith in this
story is one of the many people who just happen to be right at the
wrong time, and in the wrong place at the right time.  That scene,
with Kirk wordless with grief, and Spock calmly, but very
understandingly telling McCoy that "he knows" what he has done, cuts
right to the heart of all three characters, and is very revealing.

It wasn't just that the Enterprise was at stake here. One theme of
the whole episode was the fact that human beings sometimes, through
no fault of their own, wind up on the short end of the stick in
life. Kirk was forced to realize this, to accept it, and to not save
Edith because of it, all in a few seconds.  Not an easy thing to do.
It indicated the strength of his will over his emotions, and
demonstrated the firmness of his character.

I think if the episode had turned out the way you described it, I
would be far more likely to believe the Network Execs had munged it.
It may be Ellison, but it ain't Star Trek.

>...As I recall, the series was noted most for wasting incredible
>amounts of time on closeups of people "staring in awe" at one thing
>or another -- much as did Space:1999 a few years (later?).  I was
>only about 10 at the time, but I remember grumpily noting that all
>the action of an episode of EITHER "Starlost" or "Space:1999"
>would've fit into a five-minute Star Trek opening teaser with room
>to spare.

But then again, Star Trek couldn't wait that long. Its pace was such
that it had to be action-action-action. Space: 1999 had much more
room for drama, at least in the First Year series. In the Second
Year, they dropped the drama, much to the show's detriment.

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 18:16:13 GMT
From: Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com
Subject: Trekkie Books

ltsmith@MITRE.ARPA (LT Sheri Smith USN) writes:
>ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.UK   asks:
>>Am I the only one to have found "How Much For Just the Planet"
>>disappointing?
>
>I bought it as a result of the discussion on the net, and was
>_extremely_ disappointed. (I sent in an earlier message about it
>that somehow did not wind up in a digest.) As a result of further
>discussion on the net, I have reached the conclusion that it is
>strictly a Trekker/Trekkie insider book, and should be avoided by
>_All Others_.

When they first started doing Star Trek books, they used well known
SF authors.  (My personal favorite is one by Joe Haldeman, who's the
only author to see the potential pitfalls in a Federation-issue
Universal Translator.)  Nowadays, all ST books are written by *fans*
(note that the word "fan" is a shortened form of "fanatic") who are
motivated only by their obsession with the particular subgenre and
have no feeling for the nuts and bolts of SF.

Isaac Rabinovitch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 87 17:58 EST
From: <MWAUFORD%UTKVX3.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: ST:TNG production tidbits

Traveller <Traveller@WAIKATO.S4CC.Symbolics.COM> writes:

>That bit about Pinocchio is just the writers trying to muck up his
>character. They've done in all the human characters already.  They
>just can't find enough muck to sling at Artificial Intelligence, is
>all.
>
>Don't be silly. The writers don't KNOW there's a living, breathing
>audience out here who has to watch the drivel they turn out.
>
>Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Too bad for us that
>the writers on ST:TNG have such swelled heads.

In defense of the writers of ST:TNG, all of the episodes so far
(with the possible exceptions of "The Battle" and "Hide and Q" --
I'm not sure of my timing) have been heavily (read almost totally)
rewritten by Gene Roddenberry.  As of about a month ago, however, GR
had stopped rewriting (reason: exhaustion).  Unfortunately, it
wasn't before D.C. Fontana had left the show for reasons which I
have heard included the heavy rewrites.  This information comes from
Diane Duane (one of the writers of "Where None Have Gone Before")
and unnamed members of the production staff via the second hand of
David Gerrold.

uunet!netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker) writes:
>I assume the change was made after shooting wrapped for the first
>season, but maybe not.

Shooting has not wrapped for the first season although they have
taken a five week hiatus for the holidays.  Shooting resumes in
early January.

Melissa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 16:25:29 PST (Friday)
Subject: Re: Wesley Bashing
From: "Markjr_Palandri.SD"@Xerox.COM

<GILL%QUCDNAST.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU> writes:
>     I am having difficulties understanding why everyone seems to
>be Wesley-bashing.

   What's so difficult to understand.  The kid's a pain in the butt.

>He is inquisitive, and he knows that he can handle things as well
>as most of the crew.

   How does a "teenager" learn to handle things on the ship as well
as most of the trained crew.  I don't believe simple inquisitiveness
explains this.  How does this kid know more about the warp drives,
tractor systems and sensor systems of the enterprise than the chief
engineer(s) without having gone through the same training.

>He also has little to no discipline,....

   but is still made an (acting) ensign and allowed to work on the
bridge.  What if an emergency situation arises?  Is this child with
no self discipline and little or no training in combat situations
going to hold up under pressure?  Heck no, and the captain knows it.

>...not yet having gone to the Academy.

   The sooner the better.

>In other words, he is a typical teenager!  Get off his case and let
>him grow up!

   How many typical teenagers are in his situation?  Not many I bet.

>As I was writing about the Academy above, I got to thinking, "Why
>isn't he in the Academy yet?" ...  It is not good publicity when
>Star Fleet allows 14-16 year old cadets to get killed off, even
>accidentally.

   I'm sure that in this case the publicity would be nothing but
good, but I agree with you about him being in the Academy (or
anywhere else but on the show).

   Now that I got that off my chest, I will explain the real reason
that I (and probably others) don't like his presence on the show.
There are two main reasons that he seems to be on the show.

   The first is that the producers must think that he will appeal to
the younger (5-15) age group.  This is ridiculous.  From the kids
that I have spoken to, the general consensus seems to be that he is
a twerp.  He is obviously not a 'normal' child and thus 'normal'
children cannot relate to him.  I'm sure that you can remember the
smart kid in your junior high class that always got the best grades.
I'm willing to bet that he was not the most popular child in the
class (assuming, of course, that he wasn't totally ostracised from
the school social setting).

   The second (and more repugnant) is that it gives the writers and
easy way out when they get themselves (and the Enterprise) into a
sticky situation.  It's Wonder-boy Wes to the rescue.  e.g.

   Ferrengi have the Enterprise trapped and are ready to blow it to
   bits.

Picard:         "Anybody have any suggestions?"
Wes:            "Why, if you do this and this and this to the phaser
                banks you can extend their range to beyond the known
                universe and hit the Ferrengi from behind, where
                their shields are weakest".
Engineer:       "It's ne'er been done...It'll ne'er work"
Picard:         "What do we have to lose?  Let's try it"

   Phasers energize and the Ferrengi disappear in a flash of light.

And off we go to the next adventure.  Wes is an artifact to be used
by the poor and lazy writers on the show.

   Not that I have anything against Wes personally :-).

MEP

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 20:52:41 GMT
From: bdj@hpcilzb.hp.com (Brett Johnson)
Subject: Re: ST:TNG racism, bunch of crap!!

Here is my $0.02 worth on this subject.

Perhaps, as has been mentioned, it is possible to see a racism in
the Ferrengi if you look hard enough.  Personally, I don't see them
intended as a slur against Jews.

> Do you think greed is the only resemblance?  A race of short,
> untrustworthy, greedy interstellar traders with big noses, big
> ears and bad complexions, whose private ways are mysterious to us
> decent folk, seems to touch anti-Semitic stereotypes at more than
> one point.  Eight points, in fact.

PICTURE THIS IF YOU WILL...
DISCLAIMER:  no racial/political insults intended,
             this is merely a radical counter-proposal

The writers are attempting to eliminate ALL forms of racism -- pro &
con; They are also rampant Reaganauts.

SO...since Picard is a pro-French role model, the Ferrengi are a
flip-side: a kind of anti-socialist, modern (1980's) French
caricature.

The resemblances are indeed astounding! (lots of ;->s)

1,2,3,4.  They are fair skinned, slight of frame, have big ears and
          beady eyes.
5.  They talk funny.
6.  They are generally obnoxious.
7.  They believe themselves to be superior to all other races.
8.  They expect their women to go around nude.
9+. They sell weapons to ANYONE from whom they can make a profit and
    without regard towards those against whom the weapons may be used.
10. Even when found to be wrong (especially involving broken
    agreements and alliances), they convince themselves that they
    are being mis-judged.

I could go on, but my 10 beats your 8.

Brett D. Johnson
hplabs!hpcid!bdj

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 16:17:25 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Canonical Star Trek

From:   yalevm.bitnet!DEGSUSM   (susan de guardiola)

> I have been wondering lately - what do people consider "authentic"
> star trek?

Whatever Gene Roddenberry, Harve Bennett, and Paramount *say* is
"authentic".

> in particular, I have noticed people calling Romulans "Rihansu",
> from the ST novels by Diane Duane.  This bothers me a bit; I don't
> like the idea that one particular author can officially establish
> what a race is like, when his/her ideas go beyond what has ever
> been shown on the air....

Well, you say you prefer things written by this author or that
author. Shouldn't other people have the same options. If most people
like the way Diane Duane depicts the Romulans, shouldn't they be
able to accept her treatment as "correct"?

> ms duane is *not* the last word on them.

And what if Paramount said she was? What then?

> the same thing seems to be happening with the Klingons and John
> Ford. I don't like his Klingon culture; while it is a fantastic
> creation, it is not *my* "official" Klingondom. I happen to prefer
> the Klingons of Fern Marder and Carol Walske in their "Nu Ormenel"
> fanzine series.

Fine. That's what you prefer, but again, if more people prefer
Ford's, that is their perogative.

> so what is official Star Trek?  I would say only what is aired.
> Of course, that leaves all sorts of problems - there is now
> ST:TOG, the animated series, ST:TMP, STII:TWOK, STIII:TSFS,
> STIV:TVH, and ST:TNG.  with all sorts of inconsistencies of
> course.

I think anyone is willing to accept these as "canonical" Star Trek.
Everything else is up for grabs. I know somewhat of your
dubiousness.  It bothers me that some folks take Franz Joseph's STAR
TREK TECHNICAL MANUAL as gospel, but that's life.

Some aspects of Trek never came out of the show(s) or movies, and
made up by novelists or fans, but are now officially accepted as
canonical. Two examples are the first names of Sulu and Uhura:
Hikaru and Nyota, respectively.

Whatever floats your boat.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 16:54:21 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Trekkie books

From:   cup.portal.com!Isaac_K_Rabinovitch
> When they first started doing Star Trek books, they used well
> known SF authors....Nowadays, all ST books are written by *fans*
> (note that the word "fan" is a shortened form of "fanatic") who
> are motivated only by their obession with the particular subgenre
> and have no feeling for the nuts and bolts of SF.

Sorry, but I dispute this. Back when they "first" started doing ST
books, the only well known sf author doing them was James Blish (I
mean, Charles Spano Jr. doesn't exactly sweep the Nebula Awards year
after year...)  Joe Haldeman and David Gerrold's ST novels didn't
come until the late 70's. There were a few of that series of ST
novels that were done by authors who may be "well known sf authors"
*today*, but back then, they were just beginning authors.  Examples
are Stephen Goldin, Kathleen Sky, Gordon Eklund, and Joe's brother
Jack Haldeman.

The current Pocket Books series is indeed dominated by "fans", but a
number of well known sf authors have contributed as well: Vonda
McIntyre, Diane Duane, John Ford, Greg Bear, Bob Vardeman (who may
not be *good*, but he's well known), Barbara Hambly. and Lee Correy
(G. Harry Stine)

Of course, the reason they are dominated by fans is because there
isn't enough money in it (it's a flat fee with a *very* low royalty
rate, because it's basically "work for hire") to attract the pros on
a regular basis. The pros who write them do it because they *want*
to. It's far more economical for them to write their own novels. For
fans or beginning authors, though, it's a relatively easy way to
break into print.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #545
Date: 17 Dec 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #545
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 87 0835-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #545
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 545

Today's Topics:

          Books - Time Tunnel (2 msgs) & Reference Books &
                  Recommendations (2 msgs) & UFO (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 87 10:41:52 est
From: (Smith, Stephen) <SMITH%DICKINSN.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: _Time Tunnel_

Could anyone please give me information on _Time Tunnel_, by whom it
was written and so on, and where to obtain it?

Stephen Joseph Smith
SMITH@DICKINSN.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 13:31:38 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Time Tunnel (book)

From:   bsu-cs!cfchiesa (Chris Chiesa)

>> Time Tunnel : I have a book of the same name, never heard of the
>> show.
>
> If you have the same Time Tunnel book as I do (more below), it's
> got NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the show -- just happens to have
> the same name.

and

From:   drilex!carols   (Carol Springs)

> I think this juvenile was a Scholastic book, like Silverberg's
> _Lost_Race_ _of_Mars_....Who wrote _Time_Tunnel_?  Was it Lester
> del Rey?

To answer Carol's question: Yes and No.

There are actually four different novels with similar titles:

(1) TUNNEL THROUGH TIME (1966), by Lester del Rey, is the book Carol
    is thinking of. It, as well as a couple of other juveniles, was
    actually written by Paul Fairman from an outline by del Rey.

    Not to be confused with...

(2) TUNNEL THROUGH TIME (1966), by Murray Leinster. To make matters
    worse, this and the above both came from the same publisher.
    Must have made for some creative bookkeeping (but then, so did
    THE DEEP by Peter Benchley and THE DEEP by John Crowley, which
    also came from the same publisher a few months apart, but I
    digress...)

    Not to be confused with...

(3) TIME TUNNEL (1964), by Murray Leinster. This may or may not have
    inspired Irwin Allen to create the tv series. Regardless, other
    than the title, this has nothing in common with the tv show.

    Not to be confused with...

(4) THE TIME TUNNEL (1967), by Murray Leinster. This is a novel based
    on the tv show, depicting the "origin" of the series, but at a
    complete variance with the show. In the tv series, the first
    trip into the past landed Tony and Doug on the Titanic. In the
    novel, they appeared at the Jonestown flood. There was obvious
    confusion on the part of the publisher between this book and the
    previous (again, they both came from the same publisher). This
    book was first issued with the same Jack Gaughan cover as the
    previous book, and shortly thereafter was reissued with a photo
    (from the tv show) cover.

While I'm at it, I might as well mention that Leinster wrote a
second novel based on the tv show, only this was called TIMESLIP!,
which at least has the virtue of not having the same title as the
other books. :-)

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 14:59:57 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Any good SF reference books?

From:   parcvax!gruber  (Bob Gruber)
> If I didn't have sf-lovers, I wouldn't know where to turn to find
> out what books belonged to a given series, or who wrote a book
> based on a title I vaguely remember. Is there a good SF reference
> book available?  How up-to-date is it?

Chuq Von Rospach mentions:

> The Trillion Year Spree, by Brian Aldiss

I don't have this one, so I can't really say how good it is.

> The Science Fiction Encyclopedia, by Peter Nicholls

This is a reasonably good basic reference, up to date to about 1979.
It's only "flaw" (if you need this particular bit of info) is that
it's organized by author/subject, with no cross-referenced index to
titles mentioned in it. If you're trying to find and author for a
book whose title you can remember, this won't do.

> The Science Fiction and Heroic Fantasy Author Index, by Stuart W.
> Wells III

Chuq says this is "more or less complete through 1978". I would say
it's more less than more. Basically, what Wells did was to list what
is in his collection. He deliberately excludes juveniles, horror,
and anthologies because he doesn't collect them, and even then, he's
inconsistent about what he includes and what he doesn't. I've also
noted that he's plagiarized from other sources in a couple of
places.  One example is his list of "Dr. Palfrey" novels by John
Creasey. Not only is it obvious from his list that he doesn't have
any idea which are sf and which aren't, or which are American titles
and which are British for the same books, but the list is copied
almost verbatim from a reference book called SEQUELS by Frank
Gardner.  The virtues of this book are that it's relatively cheap,
and it's a reasonably good basic bibliography. Like Nicholls,
though, there is no cross-reference by title.

Joe Kalash mentions:

> "Science Fiction and Fantasy Series and Sequels Volume 1: Books"
> by Tim Cottrill, Martin H. Greenberg, and Charles G. Waugh

I haven't got a copy of this yet, but I intend to.

> Anatomy of Wonder (I have the second, but the third edition just
> came out), by Neil Barron.

I have personal quibbles with Neil Barron, but generally, this is a
good work.

> Twentieth-Century Science-Fiction Writers, edited by Curtis C.
> Smith (this last is only for reference addicts).

Agreed. I don't know why Joe thinks so, but there are two many
examples of incorrect or sloppy entries. Granted, I'm basing this
opinion on the first edition. There is a second edition.

John Wenn mentions:

> Baird Searles, et. all. - "A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction"
> ... & "A Reader's Guide to Fantasy"

A good pair of basic books, but rather superficial in by
bibliographic standards.

> Donald Tuck - "The Encylopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy (3
> Volumes)

If it wasn't for it being so out-of-date, this would be tied for
first as the best sf bibliography around. Considering how slow both
Tuck and his publisher (which basically consists of two fans working
in their spare time), I doubt if we'll ever see any kind of update.

> R. Reginald - "Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature" (2 Volumes)

As John says, "this is for the true junkie". This is easily the best
of the references I own, even if it is 13 years out of date. It's
price is prohibitive though. The publisher keeps upping the price
every other month.

> The update covering 1975 - 1986 is listed in "Books in Print" (2
> Volumes, 1988, $140.00, 600 pages), but I'll believe it when I see
> it. Although not as infamous as "Last Dangerous Visions", this has
> been promised for years.

I'll go along with that. For one thing, Reginald was intending to
include me and my partner-in-crime in it (no lie), but we never got
his standard information form to fill out.

> One thing to note is that I didn't even mention how to find short
> stories.  That is a completely different ballgame, that I'll leave
> to others (Jerry?).

You're right, it *is* a completely different ballgame. A basic
reference library for short fiction would include the following:

Day, Donald B. INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES 1926-1950
    (1952, revised edition 1982 by G.K. Hall). The revised edition
    corrected a number of typographical errors, but introduced a
    whole host of new ones. I believe this (the revised edition) is
    out of print.

Metcalf, Norm. INDEX OF SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES 1951-1965. Follows
    Day's lead. Long out of print.

Strauss, Erwin S. THE MITSFS INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES
    1951-1965. Covers the same range as Metcalf, but not as well (or
    as readable), in my opinion. This may still be available from
    N.E.S.F.A., who took over distribution of it many years ago.

N.E.S.F.A.  THE N.E.S.F.A. INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES
    (AND ORIGINAL ANTHOLOGIES), multiple volumes: 1966-1970,
    1971-1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977-1978, 1979-1980, 1981,
    1982, 1983.  Follows in the tradition of Strauss. Most, if not
    all, are still available from N.E.S.F.A.

Boyajian, Jerry & Kenneth R. Johnson. INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION
    MAGAZINES, annual volumes: 1977 through 1984. Yep, that's me
    (it's why I'm supposedly going to be listed in the Reginald
    update).  Still available from me. Also, there are two volumes
    of INDEX TO THE SEMI-PROFESSIONAL FANTASY MAGAZINES (1982 and
    1983) that cover the small press magazines such as WHISPERS,
    WEIRDBOOK, FANTASY TALES, etc.

Contento, William, INDEX TO SCIENCE FICTION ANTHOLOGIES AND
    COLLECTIONS.  What it says. Covers up to mid-1977. A superior
    reference work, unfortunately (I believe) out of print. It's
    major flaw is that it does not cover horror. On the other hand,
    his supplement, covering 1977-1983, still available through
    Locus Press, *does* include horror, as well as picking up sf,
    fantasy, and horror books missing from the first volume.

Brown, Charles N. & William Contento, SCIENCE FICTION IN PRINT: 1985
    and SCIENCE FICTION, FANTASY, & HORROR: 1986. Definitely worthy
    reference book, very comprehensive. Indexes of all of the short
    fiction from sf magazines, anthologies, and collections, as well
    as a bibliography of genre books. The latter is basically a
    concatention of the "Books Received" listings from LOCUS. As
    such, it's incomplete in that it only lists what the publishers
    send LOCUS. Still, it's the most comprehensive reference you're
    likely to come across. Both available from Locus Press. Contento
    and Brown are working on volumes for 1987 and 1984.

Parnell, Frank (with Mike Ashley). MONTHLY TERRORS: AN INDEX TO THE
    WEIRD FANTASY MAGAZINES PUBLISHED IN THE UNITED STATES AND GREAT
    BRITAIN. What it says. This is valuable for its coverage of the
    small press magazines, most of which were ignored by previous
    magazines indexes.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

<"Bibliography is my business">

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 87 21:13:59 -0500
From: new@UDEL.EDU
Subject: Book recommendations

I would like two recommend two books.  Both are fairly old, but I
see lots of requests about old books here, so what the heck.

First is _Continent_of_Lies_.  I think this is by James Morrow; my
appologies if wrong, but the book is home and I'm terrible with
names.  The basic plot is that there exists a technology to create
"ceph-apples" that put the eater inside of a "movie".  It turns out
that someone is making ceph-apples that cause insanity and replacing
the normal ones that were to have been "shown" at the "theatres".
The main character is a critic/reviewer that eats one of these and
spends the rest of the book trying to destroy the tree that the
apple came from. The quest is complicated by the facts that the only
person who knew how to make the ceph-apples realistic enough to
cause insanity was killed many years ago, nobody knows what tree
these are coming from, and the trees fight back.  Also, outside
observers tell the hero that he was involved in the dream for ten
minutes longer than he remembers: the dream called itself the
_Lier_in_Wait_, so the suspense is fairly high to start out with.

Some of the reasons that I like this book are these:
1) The language is powerful and evocative. (The scene with the
   headless deer jumping out from behing the headless deer crossing
   signs is one of my favorites.)

2) The actual stories, the solutions to the puzzles, are great!
   Everyone I know kicked themselves when the truth was revealed to
   our hero; in retrospect, so obvious. (Note that these are friends
   who sit down and interpret surrealistic plays for me -- no
   dummies, these.)

3) The book ends several times. That is, you get to the middle of
   the book and say, "OK, so he won. What's the other 175 pages
   about?"

4) There is much more going on in the book than just the plot and
   characters.  The book is kind of an anti-rhetoric rhetoric. I get
   more out of it every time I read it.

There is much more to it than I want to reveal to anyone who has not
read it. Suffice it to say that when I first read this book, I told
all of my friends about it.  Any who hesitated, I bought them a
copy.

The second book is called _Found_Wanting_.  This is by Lyn Carter, I
think.  This I consider brain-popcorn: good mental munchies, but
almost no nutrition.  The basic plot is that the main character
wakes up in the middle of a walkway in a futuristic city.  He knows
not his name, why is is there, what he is to do, or anything about
surviving in the city.  The book details his adventures as he casts
about the city seeking his destiny.  The main reason to read this
book is to see the city (a great source of ideas for a D&D game).
Definitely a good book to read when you don't want to think, like
after a long day at work.  Don't get me wrong; I don't think the
intent of the author was to make a "great" book, merely an
entertaining one.  In this it succeeds.

Respectfully,
Darren New
Comp Sci Grad Student @ UDel

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 19:26:41 GMT
From: srt@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Book recommendations

new@UDEL.EDU writes:
>I would like two recommend two books.  Both are fairly old, but I
>see lots of requests about old books here, so what the heck.
>
>First is _Continent_of_Lies_.  I think this is by James Morrow; my
>appologies if wrong, but the book is home and I'm terrible with
>names.

James Morrow is correct.  It's a Baen paperback from 1985.  Frankly,
I didn't find it nearly as fascinating as you did.  I don't have the
book at hand to check my feelings, but I recall finding the writing
somewhat muddy.  I wasn't particularly impressed with ceph-apples or
the future society.  But not a bad book, either.

Scott R. Turner
UCLA Computer Science
Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu
UUCP:  ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 15:19:25 GMT
From: eas@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Edward Scott)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

jws@hpcllf.HP.COM (John Stafford x75743) writes:
>Re: UFO
>   The wigs worn by the women on moonbase were of a purple hue and
>   were described (at least in the books the followed the series if
>   not actually on the air) as "anti-static wigs".

About ten years ago I got a second hand copy of "UFO 1: Flesh
Hunters" by Robert Miall. It is a Warner Paperback Library edition,
printed with permission from Pan books (who presumably did the UK
edition). I haven't seen any since then.

How many of these UFO novels were there?
Did Robert Miall write anything else?

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 09:05:05 GMT
From: cdwf@root.co.uk (Clive D.W. Feather)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

eas@cheviot (Edward Scott) writes:
>About ten years ago I got a second hand copy of "UFO 1: Flesh
>Hunters" by Robert Miall. It is a Warner Paperback Library edition,
>printed with permission from Pan books (who presumably did the UK
>edition). I have't seen any since then.  How many of these UFO
>novels were there?  Did Robert Miall write anything else?

I have got two books, both by Miall, and both published by Pan. They
are just entitled "UFO" and "UFO 2". As far as I can remember, they
are pretty accurate writeups of 2/3 episodes each, turned into a
single, fairly short, novel.  Never seen Miall's name elsewhere.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #546
Date: 17 Dec 87 0855-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #546
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 87 0855-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #546
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 546

Today's Topics:

                 Television - Doctor Who (4 msgs) &
                              Max Headroom (2 msgs) &
                              Old SF TV (5 msgs) &
                              Beauty and the Beast

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun,  6 Dec 87  15:21:34 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: Inferno
To: terminus!post%astroatc.uucp@spool.wisc.edu

I used to receive the Doctor Who Fanzine INFERNO put out by Lee
Francis, 15 Glenview Road, Haverhill MA 01830. After my first years
subscription ran out I wrote to him about renewal rates. I have
written to him several times and he has not yet responded, this is
not a complaint since he does not owe me any money or the like. If
anyone else gets INFERNO or knows about Lee's current whereabouts I
would appreciate it.

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
ARPANet  nutto%UMass.BITNet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
BITNet: nutto@UMass
UUCP: nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 16:53:00 GMT
From: awylie@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: No More Mel

What have all you guys got against Mel ? Doctor Who's companions
have all been of the 'dumb blonde' variety - anything else would
threaten the cosy male-dominated world in which he exists. Mel seems
no better or worse than any of the others to me.

Andrew
awylie@uk.ac.ucl.cs

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 10:35:29 GMT
From: adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: No More Mel

awylie@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk writes:
> What have all you guys got against Mel ? Doctor Who's companions
> have all been of the 'dumb blonde' variety - anything else would
> threaten the cosy male-dominated world in which he exists. Mel
> seems no better or worse than any of the others to me.

That cannot be correct - what about Romana (the first version,
anyway)?

Mel has now left with Savalon Glitz (maybe he will return again -
will he have tidily disposed of her in the meantime?). The Doctor's
new assistant is Ace, played by Sophie Aldred. She has one main
problem. If the show doesn't come back, she will have the record as
the Doctor's briefest assistant, as the series has just finished -
as it always does, at this time of year. The magazine Starburst gave
her an interview, and will look silly if the series doesn't come
back. Ace seems cheerfully violent, e.g. referring to her home- made
bombs as "deodorant which registers 9 on the Richter scale!"

Somebody used a dirty trick to try to ensure some anti-Dr. Who
protests, so that they could scrap the show. In the last episode,
Kane, having learned that his plans for revenge were a waste of time
as the people he wanted revenge against were extinct anyway, opened
a window and got melted. We were not spared the visual effects of
Kane's face melting. I can just see the protest letters coming in
now - "This sort of horrific display should not be on children's TV
(i.e. before 9 p.m.). Ban it at once".

Adrian Hurt
JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian
ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 09:49:48 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: No More Mel

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
>awylie@pyr1.cs.ucl.ac.uk writes:
>> What have all you guys got against Mel ? Doctor Who's companions
>> have all been of the 'dumb blonde' variety - anything else would
>> threaten the cosy male-dominated world in which he exists. Mel
>> seems no better or worse than any of the others to me.
>That cannot be correct - what about Romana (the first version,
>anyway)?

What about others like Jamie?

>Mel has now left with Savalon Glitz (maybe he will return again -
>will he have tidily disposed of her in the meantime?). The Doctor's
>new assistant is Ace,

Just when the new doctor is really beginning to look and act like
THE DOCTOR, just when Mel has been been got rid of, the series ends.

[Spoiler deleted]
>..... I can just see the protest letters coming in now - "This sort
>of horrific display should not be on children's TV (i.e. before 9
>p.m.). Ban it at once".

Just like the old days. Teach todays children to hide behind the
setee like they used to. The rest of us will go on watching the
series.

Footnote: the series started with an audience of 4.2 million. it
climbed to 5.2 and stuck for a few weeks. For the episode a couple
of weeks ago, it had reached 5.7 million.  The audience is coming
back. Someone at the BBC is getting it right.  Heads will roll for
this. (0.001 :->)

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 02:39:51 GMT
From: nuchat!seven@RUTGERS.EDU (David Paulsen)
Subject: _Max_Headroom_

>quale%si.uninett@TOR.NTA.NO (Kai Quale) says:
>There is a new TV channel starting in Norway around Christmas.
>Among other things, it will feature Max Headroom. From what I have
>heard, the episodes made by the original inventors of Max are the
>only ones worth seeing.

True, so true.  Apparently the intent was to "slow things down" so
that us TV viewers could understand all that stuff going on.  ABC
thought that Max's style was too rapid fire.

>Can anyone tell me how to tell whether the episodes featured in
>Norway are the "good" ones or the "bad" ones ? (E.g. a date : When
>did the inventors get kicked out of the show ? "All episodes made
>after date X are crap").

I don't know the dates in question.  Sometime after the "first
season", which consisted of like maybe six shows, the opening
credits changed as well as the distinctive _Max_Headroom_ theme
music.  This, to me, is the quickest way to tell "original" shows
from the watered down stuff they made shortly before the plug was
yanked.

I am still in mourning for this wonderful TV show.  There was so
much going on in each episode; taping was mandatory just to see
everything, catch every joke.  It was the only TV show besides
ST:TNG that I watched.  *sigh*

David Paulsen
...uunet.UU.NET!nuchat!seven

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 20:27:59 GMT
From: COK%psuvma.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU (R. W. Clark)
Subject: Re: _Max_Headroom_

seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) says:
>True, so true.  Apparently the intent was to "slow things down" so
>that us TV viewers could understand all that stuff going on.  ABC
>thought that Max's style was too rapid fire.

It's amazing that ABC could call this "thought."  Each episode of
the original Max was a mind-blower.  When I first sat down and
watched it, I thought during the commercials (being too engrossed to
think during the show): "This is without doubt one of the most
ambitious things ever done on television."  This thought was closely
tailed by its logical conclusion: "I'll bet it's cancelled within
two months."

I was, unfortunately, right.

cok%psuvma@psuvax1.bitnet
cok%psuvma.bitnet@psuvax1.uucp
cok%psuvma@psuvax1.psu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 87 16:24:12 EST
From: LT Sheri Smith USN <ltsmith@mitre.arpa>
Subject: OLD SF ON TV

No one has mentioned "The Ghost and Mrs Muir". This falls into the
fantasy category...Hmmmm. Perhaps we need a new category:
"Non-Horror Supernatural"??  TGaMM is a far cry from Steven King's
output!!

Sheri

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 18:38:34 GMT
From: david@dandelion.ci.com (David M. Watson)
Subject: Re: Old TV shows

I have foggy but pleasant memories of three other converted Japanese
shows seen in the US about 1972 (and that might already have been
mentioned in passing in this newsgroup):

   Gigantor (A robot that looked like Inca stone buildings, which I
      think was controlled by kids)

   Tobor, the Eighth Man (All I remember is snatches of the theme
      song)

   (not anime, but...) Ultraman! (Was it: "Hiyata! The beta
      capsule!"?)  He was a large silver "good-monster" with a red
      light mounted on his chest that would blink whenever his
      batteries were getting low.  And in his valiant, exhausting
      fights against the dinosaur types that frequently showed up to
      menace the World, he almost always came close to running out!
      And I remember a obligatory post-crisis trip to the jewelery
      store for Hiyata and friend!

Would anyone like to refresh my memory about any of these three?

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 87 18:33 EST
From: <MWAUFORD%UTKVX3.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Old SF TV (and some current)

7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU writes:

>Re: Beauty and the Beast.  My schedule hasn't let me see much of
>this, but what I have seen I've REALLY been impressed by.
>Vincent's makeup is absolutely marvellous, and the rest of the
>series is well thought out and well written.  I hope they keep it
>up!!!

George R.R. Martin is the "Executive Story Consultant" for this
series and has written several of the episodes, so it is no wonder
this show is as good as it is.  I think that they have proven by
virtue of how consistently excellent the episodes have been that
they can keep it up.  As long as CBS keeps it's nose out of things!
Incidentally, _Beauty and the Beast_ has been blowing away it's
competition on Friday's nights (though because of general low
viewership in their timeslot, they've only been placing about 35th).
It was recently picked up for the rest of this season.  Oh, and I'm
pretty sure that Rick Baker created Vincent's makeup as well as the
makeup for Fox's _Werewolf_, another excellent new series.

>Re: Land of the Lost.  I rather forgot about LOTL, but now that a
>number of people reminded me, I have to say that some episodes were
>excellent, while others were pretty dismal.  In my opinion, the
>worst episodes were toward the end of the series, generally.

David Gerrold was Story Editor for most of its run.  When he left
the show, the quality took a rapid slide.

>Re: The Fantastic Journey.  Boy, did THIS one succumb to the
>Formularity Disease with incredible rapidity; still, I wish I had
>at least the pilot movie, and perhaps the first half of the
>episodes on tape; they were fairly well done.

The pilot episode has been released as a movie.  It occasionally
shows up on my local independent station.

Melissa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 16:02:20 GMT
From: blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

cfchiesa@bsu-cs.UUCP (Christopher F. Chiesa) writes:
>nutto@umass.BITNET (Andy Steinberg) writes:
>[..various TV shows from days gone by...]

>> UFO : Was this the one with a base on the moon when alien saucers
>> with lasers battles Earth "vipers" firing missiles?
>I think so, if I've understood what you mean.  Moonbase seemed to
>be staffed largely by identical women with silver hair sorta
>"scalloped" around their eyes.  Back on Earth, there was, among
>other things, a submarine vehicle called SkyDiver, the forepart of
>which could detach and fly.  The commander (Straker) 's office was
>disguised as that of a movie producer, but the whole room would
>sink like an elevator, into the underground headquarters of
>"SHADO," whatever THAT acronym stood for (next volunteer, please).

Perhaps the REAL leader is Shado Stevens?  But seriously, I think
SHADO stood for Supreme Headquarters: Alien Defense Organization.
I don't remember whether or not we see the aliens, but I do
remember that they were water breathers, who used an ugly green
liquid for an atmosphere.  I always thought it was kind of strange
that the movie studio would sink into the ground during an attack.
If being a studio was a cover so that it could remain secret, can
you think of a more attention grabbing manouver than to sink into
the ground?  "And, Ladies and gentlemen, if you look ahead, you'll
see sound stage 4 sinking into the ground.  This is done to isolate
it from all extraneous sounds" Right.

>> Time Tunnel : I have a book of the same name, never heard of the
>> show.
>If you have the same Time Tunnel book as I do (more below), it's
>got NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the show -- just happens to have
>the same name.

>Somehow, either intentionally or by accident, two men are sent off
>into history, arriving each week at some significant historical
>event (including the sinking of the Titanic - they got off just in
>time, of course).  I think the premise was that when they tried to
>bring the two men back to the present, they'd instead get thrown
>into a different time.  Oops.

The project was about to be cancelled, with only a small problem
left to be solved, namely the major contol functions?  The first of
our heros decides to demonstrate that the tunnel works by sneaking
into the project at night and using the tunnel on himself.  He goes
back to the Titanic.  The next morning the rest of the crew find out
what has happened and hero number two goes in after hero one.  They
can't get them back, they can transfer them into new time periods,
and sometimes they can communicate with them.

Something I've wondered about is that every Time travel series
eventually has someone going to the Titanic, trying to warn the
captain.

Imagine you, the time traveller, knocking on the door to the bridge
of the Titanic.  Imagine the Captain's response to your warning.
"What is this, some kind of joke?  Are you passengers down there,
getting drunk and saying 'let's play a trick on the Captain'??  Your
the 17th one that's said watch out for ice bergs.  We always watch
out for ice bergs.  Well that's it, I've had enough.  Your going to
the brig mister."

Brian Utterback
blu@hall.uucp
sun!tundra!hall!blu
blu%hall.cray.com@umn-rei-uc.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 04:24:16 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

Anyone remember a comedy from the early '60's that involved a
caveman family that had somehow been transported to the (then)
present?  The theme music started out with,

"It's about time, it's about space . . ."

In my elementary school, it was in vogue for a couple of years to go
up to someone and say, "it's about time, it's about space, it's
about time I - - - SLAPPED YOUR FACE!!", slap them, and run away.

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 12:49:58 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: BEAUTY AND THE BEAST - Future?

From:   charon!collier  (Michael Collier)

> jimh@hpsadla.HP (Jim Horn) writes:
>>     Does anyone out there have any information on the future of
>> ``Beauty and the Beast''?  Our friends and ourselves greatly
>> enjoy it and are wondering what it's future is.  Any word will be
>> appreciated.
> did anyone see "Name of the Rose"? quite an interesting pair of
> roles for Ron Perlman.

He was also in QUEST FOR FIRE. The guy seems to have a serious
make-up habit. :-)

From:   cup.portal.com!sfanguine        (Slooze Fanguine)

> According to the messages on CompuServe in the SCI-FI Forum, the
> series has been renewed for another season.

No, not for another season. Only --- so far --- for the remainder of
this season. In other words, it didn't bomb, so CBS has committed
for a full season, unlike ABC with MAX HEADROOM, ONCE A HERO, and
SABLE. On the other hand, if it keeps doing as well as it has been
(ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT said it was the highest rated of CBS's *new*
series), it probably *will* be renewed for another season.

I want to add my recommendation for this series. The plots are
pretty standard tv action/adventure fare, but the characters, and
the mood of the series is quite something.

As someone else already mentioned, George R.R. Martin is "Executive
Story Consultant" for the series, and the "Director of Photography",
Bradford May, came from the recent TWILIGHT ZONE series. I also
noted that Vincent's make-up was designed by Rick Baker, one of the
most prominent creature make-up artists in Hollywood.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #547
Date: 17 Dec 87 0913-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #547
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 87 0913-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #547
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 547

Today's Topics:

             Books - Blaylock & Ellison (8 msgs) & Ford

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 87 03:20:38 MST
From: donn@cs.utah.edu (Donn Seeley)
Subject: LAND OF DREAMS by James P. Blaylock, and other ruminations

James P. Blaylock won the World Fantasy Award for his story 'Paper
Dragons', about a man whose neighbor is building a dragon.  I
thought that 'Dragons' was quite simply one of the best stories I
have ever read.  It has the glorious mystery of a dream and it's
peppered with beautiful touches.  I first heard about Blaylock's new
book LAND OF DREAMS (Arbor House, 264 pp. hc., c1987) in Orson Scott
Card's review in F&SF.  Card 'hated every minute' of 'Paper Dragons'
but was very enthusiastic about DREAMS, which shares the milieu of
'Dragons'.  This was kind of a mixed recommendation for me; I've
'hated every minute' of most of Card's work, and I was worried that
what Card liked, I might hate too.

The plot of DREAMS is full of little twists and turns and side
passages.  Every twelve years, the little California town where
Skeezix lives passes through the 'Solstice'.  Skeezix and his
friends Jack and Helen were too young to remember their first
Solstice, so they are surprised and bemused by some of the strange
things that they encounter -- a giant's shoe that washes up on the
beach, an empty coffin unearthed in a graveyard at midnight, a
thumb-sized man dressed as a mouse, a carnival that arrives by train
on a rail line that was long ago destroyed by time and neglect.
Jack's father disappeared in the previous Solstice, and Jack and his
friends come to realize that an evil force is at work which could
take them too...

DREAMS has many of the good features of 'Dragons', including the
notorious hermit crabs.  The beautiful texture of the writing is
still there and it's still impressive -- the California fog
practically pours off the pages.  Card's main complaint about
'Dragons' certainly is resolved, because there is plenty of plot to
go around, although I got the feeling that it was like being chased
by a horrible creature in a dream, where you run like hell but never
seem to move very fast.  The characters are drawn fairly broadly but
are still funny and memorable.  I really have to recommend the book
highly.

Having said that...  I feel compelled to make a direct comparison
between 'Dragons' and DREAMS.  'Dragons' is told in the first person
by a fairly eccentric individual; DREAMS is told in the third person
and while it's still quite quirky, it loses a lot of the flavor --
it's harder to say outrageous things in the third person because the
omniscient authorial voice isn't directly involved in the action.
'Dragons' is also more dense than DREAMS, although that may seem to be
an odd comment given the diffuse nature of both stories.  'Dragons'
capriciously shifts its subject matter from paragraph to paragraph,
leading to an overall effect without a confining sequential structure.
It's sort of like building a jigsaw puzzle where you don't recognize
the picture until the last piece is in place.  In the case of DREAMS
you inevitably lose much of the delight of this discovery because the
detail is filled in for you.  I had similar problems with the two
versions of Geoff Ryman's THE UNCONQUERED COUNTRY; I felt that the
shorter, stripped-down magazine version had more impact, a greater
density of feeling.  I talked about this idea with Gene Wolfe at a con
once and we agreed to disagree -- Wolfe described short stories as
'finger exercises' that were by their nature less important or
interesting than novels.  I can see why an author might feel this way
-- obviously a lot of effort goes into a novel and you don't want to
denigrate that work, plus you make a lot more income from novels --
but it seems to me that some subjects have an ideal length, and it's
not true that a story whose ideal length is 20 pages is inevitably
less significant than a story of 200 or 2000 pages.  (It didn't
occur to me to use Jorge Luis Borges as an example when talking to
Wolfe, to my subsequent regret.)

So go read both 'Dragons' and DREAMS.  'Dragons' originally appeared
in the anthology IMAGINARY LANDS (edited by Robin McKinley) and
turned up in at least the Dozois 'best of' collection for 1985.  I
bought DREAMS in hardcover and don't regret it; if hardcover
intimidates you, I'm sure the paperback will turn up soon.

Still waiting for that last hermit crab,

Donn Seeley    University of Utah CS Dept    donn@cs.utah.edu
40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W    (801) 581-5668    utah-cs!donn

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 20:42:28 GMT
From: ames!amdahl!drivax!macleod@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (MacLeod)
Subject: Ellison Again

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP (Walt Disney) writes:
>... Besides, Harlan's my hero, and anybody that gripes, well,
>you're just gonna hafta answer to Cordwainer Bird, nephew of Lamont
>Cranston, the Shadow. . .

Interesting that you should use that term, since Ellison has done
more than just about anybody else in science fiction to stamp out
the concept of a hero and positive values in general.

I can think of three major SF writers who have dealt with >pain< as
a theme or reference point for their work: Ellison, Sturgeon, and
Cordwainer Smith.  The latter two have done great work with such a
theme, but Ellison always strikes me as wanting to make you squirm
from pure maliciousness, like a little kid who puts a bunch of
different kinds of bugs in a jar and shakes it to make them fight
each other.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 17:52:10 PLT
From: Andrew Vaught <29284843%WSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Ellison/Starlost

okie@ihlpf.att.com (BKCobb) writes:
>By the by, did you know Elllison insisted on having his name
>changed in the "Starlost" credits to "Cordwainer Bird?"

Ellison does this when he feels that his work has been mutilated by
packs of idiot producers. Its his was of saying ``I wrote it, but
then THEY came in....''.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 16:01:52 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Ellison and 'City...'

From:   sdcc6!ix230     (Chris Hertzog)
>> The book "Phoenix Without Ashes" was indeed published a few years
>> back, based on Ellison's screenplay, but I don't remember the
>> publisher or the author (I don't think it was Ellison, but
>> someone who had his blessing).
> I believe the publisher was Pyramid books (this was in the late
> '70's).  Edward Bryant was the main author listed on the cover,
> although Ellison may have co-written it. . .

It was Fawcett Gold-Medal, 1975. Bryant wrote it on his own, those
it was based on Ellison's original teleplay.

> As long as we're on the subject of Ellison screenplays, I recall
> reading (about ten years ago) the original screenplay for "The
> City on the Edge of Forever" of Star Trek fame....It was in an
> anthology of Science Fiction plays...

SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS, edited by Roger Elwood, Washington Square
Press, 1976.

> ...(the only other play I remember from the collection was
> "R.U.R."  by the Czech author whose name escapes me now...

Karel Capek, but this is strange, since "R.U.R." didn't appear in
this anthology.

> Anyways, is this screenplay available any place else besides this
> anthology?

No. Almost, though. At some point before Ellison went into a ten or
so year writer's block (caused by some physical problems), on his
list of "forthcoming" books was a collection of all of his sf
teleplays, one of which was "City...". Unfortunately, this book
never came to pass, and I have doubts that it ever will, but we can
only hope. So far, the only other teleplays of his that have been
published (as teleplays, not stories that they're based on) are
"Phoenix Without Ashes" in the hardcover (but not paperback) edition
of FASTER THAN LIGHT, edited by Jack Dann and George Zebrowski, and
"Soldier", in his own collection FROM THE LAND OF FEAR. Actually,
there's one other: the Feb 1987 issue of ROD SERLING'S THE TWILIGHT
ZONE MAGAZINE published his unproduced and controversial TZ
teleplay, "Nackles".

> ...Ellison had Kirk fall in love, and willing to sacrifice the
> universe for this woman.

While I agree that this was a powerful piece of drama, I have to say
that I preferred the outcome that appeared on the show itself.  Not
because it "wasn't Kirk" or "wasn't STAR TREK" or whatever.  Because
I thought Kirk's self-sacrifice made for better dramatic tragedy.

Of course, this is all a matter of personal opinion. The fact is
that *both* resolutions are great tragedy. Just because you prefer
the way Ellison wrote it is no reason to denounce the revised
version.

> And let me ask all you posters this: Surely, at some time in your
> life, hasn't there been some Significant Other for whom you would
> have done anything? If you had a choice between your career and
> friends, and an ethically correct decision, or your lover (keep in
> mind that you're swimming in your hormones), what would you
> choose?

It depends on the stakes. If it was a matter of my job or my
friends, my SO would likely come out on top. But if it was the fate
of an entire universe? Sorry, but she's six feet under in that case.
And I would expect her to do the same regarding me.

> I'm sorry, but I think it was a cop-out on the network's part.

And I'm sorry, but I don't.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 20:30:57 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Re: Ellison and 'City...'

boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> From: sdcc6!ix230     (Chris Hertzog)
>> Anyways, is this screenplay available any place else besides this
>> anthology?
>
> So far, the only other teleplays of his that have been published
> (as teleplays, not stories that they're based on) are "Phoenix
> Without Ashes" in the hardcover (but not paperback) edition of
> FASTER THAN LIGHT, edited by Jack Dann and George Zebrowski, and
> "Soldier", in his own collection FROM THE LAND OF FEAR. Actually,
> there's one other: the Feb 1987 issue of ROD SERLING'S THE
> TWILIGHT ZONE MAGAZINE published his unproduced and controversial
> TZ teleplay, "Nackles".

There is one complete teleplay in "The Other Glass Teat" as well. I
believe it was for a show called "The Young Lawyers" or something
very similar (my copy is at home).  Harlan put it in the column to
show his readers the difference between what appeared on the screen
and what he had written. (Hmm...that sounds familiar somehow.)

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1987 10:56 EST
From: Ken Papai <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:IKJP400@INDYCMS>
Subject: Ellison: I ROBOT & Night Flyers

I would like to make a few comments about the appearance of _I
ROBOT_ in the recent issues of Asimov SF Magazine (IASFM).  As we
all know, Asimov wrote the novel _I ROBOT_ in the 1950s.  The
version that is serialized in IASFM is Harlan Ellison's adaptation
screenplay for a motion picture that was completed in the '70s.  No
motion picture studio has yet started filming, and it appears from
reading Ellison's comments and foreword to the screenplay that there
are no more takers.  Gardner Dozois, IASFM editor, and Sheila
Williams, IASFM editorial ass't, have made it possible to print the
screenplay (a possibly bold move) and let the fans decide.

The screenplay is well done -- Ellison is one of the best at
adapting works for film.  His brilliant and brash attitudes are
perceived as bad by major studio execs.  One would hope for better
from these people; they should know how to deal effectively with
artists, but it never seems that can see beyond their wallets.

A few other comments: I saw NIGHT FLYERS and was mildly impressed.
I believe that the director did a fine job for the budget he had
allocated.  Obviously the movie it varied somewhat from George R.R.
Martin's novella but I was still impressed.  The novella originally
appeared in ANALOG in 1981.  This was the Short and Heavily edited
version (I wonder why, it is 1/2 the length of the long version).
The long version appears in Martin's _NIGHT FLYERS_ anthology.

Ken Papai
Indiana University
Indianapolis, IN

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 00:36:59 GMT
From: r032@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Sam Rebelsky)
Subject: Harlan Ellison Questions (again)

Question 1: I want to order _The Essential Ellison_ from my local
bookstore.  Unfortunately, it's not listed in _Books In Print_.  In
earlier discussions of this book, someone said that it was published
by Borgo press, but this does not appear to be correct (they tried
ordering from Borgo and got a "not our publication" response).  Does
anyone know the publisher of this book (and, preferably, the
publisher's address and the ISBN#)?

Question 2: I picked up _The Light at the End of the Universe_, by
Terry Carr at a local used bookstore.  On the cover it says "The
Harlan Ellison Discovery Series: #3".  The book was published in
1976 by Pyramid.  Does anyone know what the other books in the
Harlan Ellison Discovery series were?

Thanks in advance,

Sam R

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 17:25:58 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Questions (again)

>Question 1: I want to order _The Essential Ellison_ from my local
>bookstore.  Unfortunately, it's not listed in _Books In Print_.

The Essential Ellison is Nemo Press, 1019 pages, ISBM 0-914261-01-0.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 17:37:50 GMT
From: chinet!clif@RUTGERS.EDU (Clif Flynt)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Questions (again)

r032@sphinx.uchicago.edu (Sam Rebelsky) writes:
>Question 2: I picked up _The Light at the End of the Universe_, by
>Terry Carr at a local used bookstore.  On the cover it says "The
>Harlan Ellison Discovery Series: #3".  The book was published in
>1976 by Pyramid.  Does anyone know what the other books in the
>Harlan Ellison Discovery series were?

  I forget the title of H.E. Discovery #1, but the author was James
Sutherland.  I think Jim had a few short stories pubbed (one should
be in the "Last Dangerous Visions", if/when it comes out.), but this
was his only novel.  (Unless he changed his mind, and started
writing again, and I missed it.)  I think it was published something
like 1975 or so.  (StormTrack comes to mind as a title, but it's
been a while, and the library isn't where I am.  sorry.)

  It wasn't a bad novel, but it really wasn't a great one, either.

Clif Flynt
ihnp4!chinet!clif

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 01:00:06 GMT
From: ndmath!nj@RUTGERS.EDU (nj @ a loss)
Subject: Re: How Much For Just the Planet

I haven't tried rereading this book yet, but upon first reading I
was rather disappointed.  I enjoyed _The Final Reflection_ quite a
bit, and after reading recommendations from other netters, I didn't
hesitate to buy this one.  But I still don't understand why other
people find it so hilarious.  Maybe I'm just too used to strange
forms of humor that I miss the obvious...

I concur with the few others--a couple of good yocks, but otherwise
a flimsy premise (partly) and lots of (to me) unfunny silliness.  He
goes to a lot of trouble to set up dramatic irony, but I don't find
the end result humorous.

nj

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #548
Date: 17 Dec 87 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #548
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 87 0922-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #548
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 548

Today's Topics:

            Books - Niven (3 msgs) & Cyberpunk (5 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 87 16:20:11 PLT
From: Andrew Vaught <29284843%WSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Niven: Louis Wu/Beowulf Schaffer

BARBER@portland.BITNET (Wayne Barber) writes:
> Now comes the confusing part: Why didn't Louis Wu know about
> Schaeffer's exploits in *Long Shot*?  Why did he know so little
> about the Core Explosion? ...  These are the inconsistencies in
> the story that always left me wondering if this was the same Louis
> Wu.

 I was rereading RINGWORLD again the other day with this fact in
mind, and at one point Nessus and Louis talk about the Long Shot.
Nessus mentions mentions that the only entity ever to pilot it was
Beowulf Schaffer.  Louis just sort of takes in the information
without comment, as if he was hearing it for the first time. I would
suspect that Beowulf's son Louis (by Carlos Wu) and Louis Wu are not
the same person.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 16:17:38 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Niven's Moties (was Species-ism in F&SF)

>You might try _The Mote In Gods Eye_ by Niven & Pournelle.  You
>probally will not like it for other reasons but it has the best
>thought-out aliens that I've seen.

   Umm, I beg to differ!  This is not to flame anyone but to flesh
out (hopefully) some of the ideas running through one particular
person who read the book.

   I thought the Moties are more anthropormorphic than many people
think they are.  And when they are different from humans, their
differences are not so creative.

   First, they look like monkeys, another variation on the
anthropoid theme.  The have arms in the right places (upper body,
coming out of shoulders), legs, eyes, ears, mouth, brains, etc all
in the same place as humans.

   The arms were made asymmetrical and the nunmber of arms differ.
Is this a significant or fundamental difference?  I've seen such
attempts at "differences" by Edgar Rice Burroughs!

   The society is made up of distinct classes of Moties, each with a
set characteristic.  One if warlike, one is a diplomat, one if a
ruler, etc.  How creative! <sarcasm intended> This reminds me of the
little plastic toys that we used to play with, one monster having
one special characteristic that defines most of the other features
of that particular monster.  Anything else if subsidiary to that one
characteristic.

   Also, I find it hard to believe that the intelligent Moties
haven't studied their biochemistry enough to simulate the
reproductive process.  Sure they don't have much time but they've
been doing it for millions times over.  It's the most significant
problem they face and I would think that they would devote a lot of
their time to seeking a solution to this problem...  They seem to be
able to preserve past techonology and some information (look at the
museums and such) so why can't they carry over some of their
biochemistry knowledge or tools?

   Umm, I have to go do class now...  Please don't take this an
attack on fellow sf-readers who liked the book!  I just want to know
why you (plural) think the Moties are well-thought-out aliens.

   Let's not get into a flame-war, please (since I know a lot of you
liked the book - which is perfectly ok!)

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
215-543-9855
UUCP:   {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 06:20:00 GMT
From: killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Niven's Moties (was Species-ism in F&SF)

hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai) says:
>   I thought the Moties are more anthropormorphic than many people
>think they are.  And when they are different from humans, their
>differences are not so creative.

Well, they're LESS anthropormorphic than most SF aliens, at least. I
doubt that you can truly create non-anthropomorphic aliens... even
the mist-type creatures in some of Tiptree's works think sort of
anthropomophically, , simply because while we can imagine some
differences in the way creatures think, we really can't imagine a
fundamental difference in the THOUGHT process (what is thought? What
is thinking? ).

>       Also, I find it hard to believe that the intelligent
> Moties haven't studied their biochemistry enough to simulate the
> reproductive process.  Sure they don't have much time but they've
> been doing it for millions times over.  It's the most significant
> problem they face and I would think that they would devote a lot
> of their time to seeking a solution to this problem...  They seem
> to be able to preserve past techonology and some information (look
> at the museums and such) so why can't they carry over some of
> their biochemistry knowledge or tools?

They do have the knowledge. One of the Moties mentions that many
cycles ago, a mediator invented the Motie equivalent of "The Pill".
And it failed, for political reasons. Sort of the equivalent of
today's arms talks and the possibility of eliminating nuclear
weapons. Remember the "Brownies"? How some kingdoms eliminated all
their "brownies", but others kept a few in reserve and got a
competitive advantage from that? Or how attempts to eliminate the
soldier class have always failed due to the same problem? (The
country that kept "soldiers" in reserve could go out and conquer the
world, and thus the total elimination of the soldiers never
occured).

Note that evolution-wise, rapid reproduction is beneficial to the
survival of your genes, since there's more bodies with those genes
in them. It's interesting to note that the human's year-long sexual
cycle most probably evolved for the same reason, as a response to
the huge 9-month pregnency period necessary to produce offspring of
viable complexity.

I haven't read that book in over a year (and I read it twice, at
that), but I still remember quite well the hazards of evolution gone
amok, and the perils of politics and competition. And "Crazy Eddie"
who tried to eliminate that, and only hastened the collapses. A
masterfull book, the only good book Niven/Pournelle have ever
collaborated on, you may not agree with some of what they say, but
it really is thought-provoking on many issues (such as, "human
evolution ended when civilization began" -- too true, alas, until we
master the secrets of genetic engineering).

Eric Lee Green
elg@usl.CSNET
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 10 Dec 87 21:42:02 GMT
From: ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Fidel Castro)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk (12:534)

rang%msucps1@CPSWH.CPS.MSU.EDU (Anton Rang) writes:
>My personal feeling about NEUROMANCER is that it should never have
>been written.  The writing isn't bad, but the subject matter?
>Maybe I just don't like the idea of "cyberpunk", but I didn't find
>it a very good book.  I haven't tried any other cyberpunk novels
>yet (once burned, twice shy); anyone have another they'd recommend?

   I first came across the term "cyberpunk" at the Westercon two
years ago.  (my first and only convention, by the way--the
attraction of meeting authors was countered by the rather, um, er,
highly "unusual" behavior of the fans (Sorry, folks, it just wasn't
my cup of tea. . .))  Anyway, John Shirley was on the panel
representing the "cyberpunk" authors; Silverberg and Charles Platt
represented the folks who had been involved with the New Wave
movement from the '60's, only to see it eventually ignored, and, in
the case of someone like J. G. Ballard, serve against them
(publishers wouldn't promote his work from the '70's since New Wave
was dead then).  Someone else was with Shirley for the Cyberpunks
(Lewis Shiner?); Shirley acted like some spoiled brat.  In response
to a question about the pessimistic nature of most cyberpunk,
Shirley and his cohort enthusiastically endorsed Bruce Sterling's
_Schismatrix_ as an uplifting book.

   Well, they were right.  _Schismatrix_ captures that sense of
wonder so dominant from the Golden Era, yet evokes all the high-tech
of today, and extrapolates it in a logical fashion.  By the end of
the book, humanity has evolved into dozens of different specialized
species, all coexisting and cooperating to make space livable.
Unfortunately, I found the attempt at a transcendental ending rather
hoky (the main character is transfigured into some higher spiritual
plane), but other than this, I highly endorse _Schismatrix_ as a
compelling example of Uplifting Cyberpunk.

   I find the whole cyberpunk marketing phenomenon rather amusing
myself.  Sterling, one of the self-proclaimed gurus of the subgenre,
has been writing historical fantasies for the last year and a half.
Gibson is in a class by himself, and the dozens of clones who seem
to be getting published these days have nowhere near the command of
language and imagery, nor the control and planning of a viable
future world so evident in his own work.  Connie Willis, Kim Stanley
Robinson, and Lucius Shepard are authors just as talented and
respected as Gibson; I'd say in retrospect that these four, along
with Sterling, are going to be read for a long time.  The rest of
the "cyberpunk" movement, like the many "New Wave" writers no longer
remembered, is going to be a footnote in some English student's
dissertation. . .

Chris Hertzog
ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:22:02 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk (12:534)

ix230@sdcc6.ucsd.edu.UUCP (Fidel Castro) writes:
>I first came across the term "cyberpunk" at the Westercon two years
>ago.  [...]  Anyway, John Shirley was on the panel representing the
>"cyberpunk" authors; Silverberg and Charles Platt represented the
>folks who had been involved with the New Wave movement from the
>'60's, only to see it eventually ignored, and, in the case of
>someone like J. G. Ballard, serve against them (publishers wouldn't
>promote his work from the '70's since New Wave was dead then).
>Someone else was with Shirley for the Cyberpunks (Lewis Shiner?);
>Shirley acted like some spoiled brat. [ much deleted ]

In a similar vein, there was a transcript of a panel at the Science
Fiction Research Association printed in the premiere issue of
Science Fiction Eye (email me if you want to know how to subscribe
-- it's great).  The panel included John Shirley (acting as
described above, incidentally), Jack Williamson, Norman Spinrad, and
Gregory Benford.

Interesting stuff, give it a look if you can.

And if you want another book to try -- it's cyberpunk in my opinion
-- look at Pat Cadigan's "Mindplayers."  I just read and thoroughly
enjoyed it.  It was (for me) worlds better than Schizmatrix.  Much
better plot, a character I could identify with, and *wonderful*
imagery.  (Do *you* have a cathedral in your brain?)

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 17:15:43 GMT
From: markc@hpcvlx.hp.com (Mark Cook)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk (12:534)

rang%msucps1@CPSWH.CPS.MSU.EDU (Anton Rang) writes:
>>Okay, I've resisted it for a couple of years now - reading
>>NEUROMANCER, that is. I'd read several short stories set in one or
>>another cyberpunk universe, and they're the most depressing places
>>I can imagine. Who needs a whole novel of that sh*t? I'd rather
>>feel good about things...
>> ...  We were both right. It IS the most depressing place
>>imaginable.
>>But, my God, what incredible writing...
>
>My personal feeling about NEUROMANCER is that it should never have
>been written.  The writing isn't bad, but the subject matter?
>Maybe I just don't like the idea of "cyberpunk", but I didn't find
>it a very good book.  I haven't tried any other cyberpunk novels
>yet (once burned, twice shy); anyone have another they'd recommend?
>
>Also...if you want to read something depressing, try the daily
>paper. :-)

    Well, I guess you caught me in a bad mood this morning but I
can't just read this one and then go on.  This attitude sounds
remarkably like "If I can't view the world through rose-colored
glasses, I'm going to keep my eyes closed."  I loved NEUROMANCER for
exactly the same reason you hated it.  After reading the horror
stories on page 1 of the local daily rag, it's nice to be able to
read of an even grimmer world in a novel, and then finish it and say
to yourself, "Thank <bleep> things aren't REALLY like that!"
Incidentally, I could almost read the book just to roil in the
verbal imagery and ignore the plot altogether.

Mark F. Cook
Software Support
Hewlett-Packard - Corvallis Workstation Operation
1000 NE Circle Blvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330
ARPA: markc@hpcvlo.HP.COM
UUCP: {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 07:10:37 GMT
From: looking!brad@RUTGERS.EDU (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Why Cyberpunk is popular -- the computer expert as Cowboy

Cyberpunk has attracted a great deal of attention recently.  Some
have even gone so far as to call it a "genre," even though it is
certainly not in the class of other genres like horror, mystery or
SF.  Aside from the finely crafted writing of Cyberpunk's demigod,
William Gibson, what is the reason for this popularity?

I think the answer comes from Mr. Gibson's own term for the computer
expert/heros of his stories.  They're "cowboys" and "jockeys" in the
Neuromancer vernacular, and the romance of these names comes through
to the technophiles reading the stories.

In the past, almost all literary or dramatic attempts to make heros
out of scientists, and in particular programmers, have failed
miserably.  The authors are always forced to introduce some utterly
ridiculous extra clause to add the dramatic element they want.
They're hoping that the lay public will accept it unawares, but the
educated reader laughs, and gets upset.

The most common stereotype of the past was the nerdy kid with
knowledge nobody could understand.  Not the heroic character people
want to idolize.  Consider Broderick in Whiz Kids or the character
Lynch from Max Headroom.

Gibson created a world where the computer whiz could be a real,
honest to goodness, cowboy style gritty action-hero, without it
seeming silly.  And people eat it up.  People talk a lot about the
dystopian "punk" part of cyberpunk, but I suspect it's the "cyber"
part that keeps them coming.  Or, more likely, the mere thought that
"cyber" (computers) and "punk" (cool, street-smart) could go
together so neatly.

Brad Templeton
Looking Glass Software Ltd.
Waterloo, Ontario
519/884-7473

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 05:14:11 GMT
From: mincy@think.com (Jeffrey Mincy)
Subject: Re: NEUROMANCER Awakening

soren@reed.UUCP (Slippery When Wet) writes:
>dfc@hpindda.HP.COM (Don Coolidge) writes:
>>Okay, I've resisted it for a couple of years now - reading
>>NEUROMANCER, that is. I'd read several short stories set in one or
>>another cyberpunk universe, and they're the most depressing places
>>I can imagine.  We were both right. It IS the most depressing
>>place imaginable.
>
>I've never understood why people think that Gibson's world is
>depressing.  Seems like a pretty reasonable place to me.

I also have found Neuromancer one of the most depressing worlds.
One aspect of this world is that the people in it have almost no
control over their lives.  The book proceeds at a breakneck pace.
The world is controlled by people like tessier-ashpol.  It is very
impersonal.  This world would be far more depressing if the reader
were more involved.  I couldnt feel empathy for any of the
characters.

>If you want depressing, try Brunner's *Stand on Zanzibar*.

Stand on zanzibar is on the to read list, so I can't comment.
Brunners world may be very well be more depressing.

jeff
seismo!godot.think.com!mincy

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 17-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #549
Date: 17 Dec 87 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #549
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Dec 87 0945-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #549
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 17 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 549

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Old SF TV (15 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 04:54:20 GMT
From: hirai@swatsun (Eiji "A.G." Hirai)
Subject: Ultraman (was Old T.V. shows...)

AS0JHC@bingvma.BITNET (John) writes:
>I am suprised noone has mentioned Ultraman (Japanese). It was on in
>early to mid seventies. About superhuman, giant aliens, one of
>which

   The original Ultraman was broadcast in Japan during the late
60's, yes!  I remember watching the second series called _Ultraman
Seven_ (younger brother of Ultraman) when I was kindergarten (that
was late 60's to early 70's).  Ahh, nostalgia me sweeps back to
those days... <lost in thought>

>the monsters he fought. Also, periodically, there appeared a
>Captain Ultraman, so Ultraman could have been an alien rank?? Have
>several pop-up books from

   Do you refer to the last two episodes where Ultraman runs out of
the alloted 3 minutes and *dies* (yes, dies!)?  That's when his
older brother Zofie (Zophie?) comes to take his body...

   Anyway, the series was popular among kiddies in Japan so the
series expanded every year with another younger brother popping up.
There was the original _Ultraman_, then _Ultraman Seven_, _Return of
the Ultraman_, ... and so on and so on.  It got a little silly after
a while, what with _Ultraman Taro_, _Ultraman '80_ (no joke),
complete with father and mother ultramen.

   Does anybody remember seeing an even older series called Jonny
Sacho(?) and the Flying Robots?  My roommate remembers seeing this
on T.V. and when he explained it to me, I immediately recognized it
as a long-forgotten series in the early, mid 60's called _Maguma
Taishi_, as it was titled in Japan (where I was a kiddie who watched
all this stuff in Tokyo).  Amazing...

Eiji "A.G." Hirai
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore PA 19081
Tel. 215-543-9855
UUCP: {rutgers, ihnp4, cbosgd}!bpa!swatsun!hirai
Bitnet: vu-vlsi!swatsun!hirai@psuvax1.bitnet
Internet: bpa!swatsun!hirai@rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 20:57:56 GMT
From: bgsuvax!lewis@RUTGERS.EDU (L. Rick Lewis)
Subject: Re: TV shows

ab31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Antonio Kyamm Blondet) writes:
> I just posted a message concerning the Herculoids, before I was
> able to read that post, I didn't think anybody else really liked
> or remembered the Herculoids, in fact up until recently, I
> couldn't even remeber the name.  Wasn't the name of the father of
> the family Xandar or Zandar?  and didn't he carry a shield and
> slingshot?

I thought it was (X)or Zandor, his wife was Tara (pronounced
(road)TAR-a) they had a son Doorno was his name I think

> I'd forgotten about Gloop and Gleep!  Now I remember they'd always
> make funny noises( I think).  You forgot to mention The Ape type
> creature who I think was made out of a rock like material.

Gloop and Gleep were great, The Rock-ape was Iggoo I think. There
was also a dragon with laser eyes and tail ,.his name slips my mind
also.  There was aldo the energy rock spouting 8 legged rhino-type
called Tundro

> This was one of best shows ever in my opinion, it would be great
> if they could bring it back!  I think I remember that a few times
> Hanna-Barbera(sp?) did crossover adventures with SpaceGhost
> appearing on the Herculoid planet a couple of times, which I
> thought was great!

H-B did attempt to bring The Herculoids back around 1980 and was met
with little success. They switched from an action-adventure format
to an action-comedy one. Really disappointing. The USA network run
the reruns of these, Thundarr, and (the new) Space Ghost on either
Saturday or Sunday cartoon express. Space Ghost is almost wimpy now.
how sad 8^{

Rick
305 N Summit St
Bowling Green, OH
UUCP: ...!cbatt!osu-eddie!bgsuvax!lewis
CSnet: lewis@research1.bgsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 87 20:09:00 PST
From: hhaller@pnet01.cts.com (Harry Haller)
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #535

A few minutae:
The narrator/host on Science Fiction Theatre was Truman Bradley.

The TV Flash Gordon was Steve Holland.

Rocky Jones Space Ranger stills seem to keep cropping up at cons. I
remember it as the first continuing sf series I watched. In 1955 I
was permitted to stay up past 8:00 to watch it, in hopes of avoiding
screaming tirades of youthful frustration. Remember the Blastoff
Synchronizer (LA Valley power station, I think...) and the female
regulars Veena and Juliandra? And who was the old professor? What
was the kid's name? (You know, the one who had to butt through the
steel mesh with his head?) Does anyone have a source for those old
episodes?

Harry

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 16:26:24 GMT
From: boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: James Gunn and THE IMMORTAL

From:   teknowledge-vaxc!hshiffma
> The series lost most of the atmosphere of the book.  I seem to
> remember James Gunn doing an article for TV Guide about how they
> lost everything good in the adaptation to television, turning his
> work into Run For Your Blood.

Which didn't, of course, stop him from writing a novelization of the
pilot movie for the series.

The show wasn't without flaw, but its basic "Run for Your Blood"
premise wasn't inherently bad.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 23:31:02 GMT
From: rwn@ihlpa.att.com (Bob Neumann)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback) writes:
> ...  But seriously, I think SHADO stood for Supreme Headquarters:
> Alien Defense Organization. The I don't remember whether or not we
> see the aliens, but I do remember that they were water breathers,
> who used an ugly green liquid for an atmosphere.  I always thought
> it was kind of strange that the movie studio would sink into the
> ground during an attack.  If being a studio was a cover so that it
> could remain secret, can you think of a more attention grabbing
> manouver than to sink into the ground?  "And, Ladies and
> gentlemen, if you look ahead, you'll see sound stage 4 sinking
> into the ground.  This is done to isolate it from all extraneous
> sounds" Right.

I don't remember the actual Harlington-Straker movie studio sinking
into the ground during an "attack".  I do recall that the SHADO
organisation headquarters was located UNDER the studio, using the
studio as a disguise.  In another of Gerry Anderson's TV shows,
STINGRAY (which used marionettes instead of live action -real
actors) the Marineville base always went underground in case of
attack.

Bob Neumann

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 10:08:31 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Blake's, all 7 of them!

timelord@aurora.UUCP (G. "Murdock" Helms) writes:
>Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>> Whoops.  After the Star One episode, the actor who played Blake
>> got a job with the National Shakespeare Company, so Blake
>> essentially disappears until the "last" episode.
>
>The second Travis, the one with the really thick Cockney accent,
>was spotted in the BBC movie "Edge of Darkness" recently broadcast
>in California.

Something else to watch out for. The recently concluded series
"Knights of God" on independent television was notable only for
having Gareth Thomas (Blake himself) playing the part of the leader
of a band of rebels trying to overthrow the harsh Goverment sometime
in the future UK.  Almost a reprise of his part as Blake, but he
isn't even one of the major characters. His name comes about eighth
on the credits.

Now we know what he was doing while he was missing from Blake's
Seven. :->

Also look out for the second Dr Who, Patrick Troughton, in a
supporting role.

Note: I do Not recommend this series for any other reason than the
above mentioned curiosity value.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 9 Dec 87 13:57:35 GMT
From: ecrcvax!johng@RUTGERS.EDU (John Gregor)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

There was a show on sometime between the late 70's and early 80's (1
season).  And I can't remember the name.  It was actually two (or
more) shows in one with each sub-show taking a fraction of the time
slot.  One part was a modern day dracula.  Another dealt with a
society living underground.  They couldn't come up to the surface
without special filters due to dust/pollution or some such.  Ring
any bells?  It was NBC, I think.

John
johng%ecrcvax.UUCP@germany.CSNET

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 20:43:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Old T.V. shows...

Yes, that was The one.  When he went "over limit" I believe his
alter-ego became someone else.  Another show along the same lines
that was shown at the same morning slot when I was a kid was "Johnny
Rokko" or something like that about a kid working with the same
security agency as Ultraman's alter-ego who had a giant robot he
could control with a wristwatch transmitter or some such.  Several
episodes dealt with the bad guys' attempts to get hold of the wrist
watch, and I think that maybe Ultraman had a guest shot in one.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 20:30:00 GMT
From: bucc2!frodo@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Old TV shows

 Yes, the Herculoids were led by Zandor, the father, and there were
two kids (boy and girl) and a wife as well.  In addition to the ape
and the dragon, there was a rhino-like thing that could shoot
projectiles from its horn, and two "shmoos", white blobs that could
stretch into any shape.

The show with the three people on missions (two men and a woman)
sounds a lot like Space Ghost, who was the leader, and two kids and
a monkey who would save the universe every week from some menace or
other.  Space Ghost had these wrist bracers that allowed him to
become invisible and do other interesting things.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 15:52:29 GMT
From: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu (Joanne Brooks)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

johng@ecrcvax.UUCP (John Gregor) writes:
> There was a show on sometime between the late 70's and early 80's
> (1 season).  And I can't remember the name.  It was actually two
> (or more) shows in one with each sub-show taking a fraction of the
> time slot.  One part was a modern day dracula.  Another dealt with
> a society living underground.  They couldn't come up to the
> surface without special filters due to dust/pollution or some
> such.  Ring any bells?  It was NBC, I think.

It was an NBC series.  The title was 'Cliffhangers', and the current
series of 'Amazing Stories' reminded me alot of 'Cliffhangers' when
I first saw it.  I still can't put my finger on it, but something
made the connection.

Anyway, there was the Dracula story, the futuristic society story,
and a third story in the set; I cannot remember what the storyline
for the third segment was....maybe someone else will

Joanne Brooks
U of Maryland Computer Science Ctr
Consulting Staff
BITNET: BROOKSJ@UMDD.BITNET
Internet: brooksj@umd5.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 09:11:19 GMT
From: cc1@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Old SF TV (and some current)

Does anyone remember an old SF show from the late sixties in which
they flew around the universe in a big spaceship and encountered all
sorts of strange things?  I don't remember the name, but I think
that guy from TJ Hooker was in it.  Most of the plots hit you over
the head with the episode's moral, but it was a pretty enjoyable
series.  Anyone remember this?

Ken

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 23:41:18 GMT
From: ism780c!geoff@RUTGERS.EDU (Geoff Kimbrough)
Subject: Re: Old SF Shows

malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:
>Anyone remember a comedy from the early '60's that involved a
>caveman family that had somehow been transported to the (then)
>present?  The theme music "It's about time, it's about space . . ."

". . . About 2 men in the strangest place . . ."  The name of this
turkey was "It's About Time."  Really terrible.  Actually, you're
remembering only the later season(s?)...  In the first season the
setup was 2 men transported to the stone-age.  Later, they and their
hosts returned to the present and had "many amusing adventures".
(I'll never figure out why Imogene Coca took the job.)

They had a mercury capsule mock-up sitting on the Gilligan's Island
set.  (yes, it landed on dry land, thanks to dry-ice rockets!)
   You must be almost as old as I am!

Geoffrey Kimbrough
INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
Santa Monica, California
sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff
seismo!ism780c!geoff
ima!geoff

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 05:40:41 GMT
From: mikej@vax1.acs.udel.edu (Mike J)
Subject: Re: Cartoons (Was: TV shows)

cc1@CS.UCLA.EDU writes:
> My friends and I enjoy the Ghostbusters show; that is, the REAL
> Ghostbusters.  Being college students, we naturally try to keep up
> on all the new cartoons, and this is one that is consistently
> entertaining (relative to the other cartoons out there).  On a
> scale from % to *, I give it a solid &.

I agree, just I wouldn't hesitate to say that The Real Ghostbusters
is THE best American cartoon in production at the present time.
It's major advantage is that it isn't moralizing all over the place,
like ThunderCats, He-man, and BraveStar.  Those three could all be
quite good, if they'd stop all that damn moralizing.

Mike J
mikej@vax1.acs.udel.EDU

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 10:12:17 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: CLIFFHANGERS (was re: Old SF Shows)

From:   umd5!brooksj    (Joanne Brooks)
> It was an NBC series.  The title was 'Cliffhangers'... Anyway,
> there was the Dracula story, the futuristic society story, and a
> third story in the set; I cannot remember what the storyline for
> the third segment was....maybe someone else will

The other segment was "Stop Susan Williams", a mystery/adventure
serial.

"The Secret Empire" segment was ripped off lock, stock, and barrel,
from the old Gene Autry serial "The Phantom Empire". CLIFFHANGERS
writer and producer Kenneth Johnson claimed that he never saw the
original, but the similarities are too close to be coincidence.

The third segment, "The Curse of Dracula", by coincidence, just
showed up on a local (Boston) station, re-edited into a feature film
called THE LOVES OF DRACULA.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 87 11:32:42 PST
From: 7GMADISO%POMONA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: The Fantastic JOURNEY vs. VOYAGE

People, The Fantastic Voyage was a MOVIE.  To my knowledge, it was
NEVER a series.  (and a book.)

The Fantastic JOURNEY was the prime-time TV show that purported to
explain the Bermuda Triangle by postulating an immense,
continental-size island in a parallel dimension, with 'time zones'
scattered across its surface; each zone being completely different,
and of course our heroes are on the OPPOSITE side of the island from
the civilization that might be able to return them to their own
time(s) (Since the group was composed of people from various times
stranded there.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #550
Date: 21 Dec 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #550
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Dec 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #550
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 550

Today's Topics:

                    Miscellaneous - What is SF &
                                    Writing Books (2 msgs) &
                                    Cons (2 msgs) & 
                                    A Short Story

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 10:16:54 GMT
From: psuvax1!lll-winken!gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: 'SF'

g-willia@gumby.wisc.edu (Karen Williams) writes:
>I said that it was because the Science Fiction Writers of America
>had nominated it for a Nebula, and if they didn't know what was and
>wasn't science fiction, who did?

But what about all of the stuff that's NOT nominated for a Nebula?
What about all of the stuff that wasn't written by card-carrying
SFWA members?  What about all of the stuff written by SFWA members
that doesn't have a single SF idea in it?  Simply belonging to SFWA
doesn't carry any meaning other than that one qualified to join.
Certainly *I* wouldn't want SFWA to become the official SF
arbitrator - after all, Piers Anthony is, presumably, a member :-)

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 21:24:24 GMT
From: lasibley@watmath.waterloo.edu (Lance)
Subject: Re: Trekkie books

boyajian@akov75.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN) writes:
> From: cup.portal.com!Isaac_K_Rabinovitch
>> When they first started doing Star Trek books, they used well
>> known SF authors....Nowadays, all ST books are written by *fans*
>> (note that the word "fan" is a shortened form of "fanatic") who
>> are motivated only by their obession with the particular subgenre
>> and have no feeling for the nuts and bolts of SF.
>
[ argument re: pro writers who have written ST novels deleted ]
>Of course, the reason they are dominated by fans is because there
>isn't enough money in it (it's a flat fee with a *very* low royalty
>rate, because it's basically "work for hire") to attract the pros
>on a regular basis. The pros who write them do it because they
>*want* to. It's far more economical for them to write their own
>novels. For fans or beginning authors, though, it's a relatively
>easy way to break into print.

Where did you hear this? If it's true, please be a little bit more
precise in citing you sources so that I can check up on them...I
have 200 pages of writing rotting at home with no outlet for it!
:-)

According to an interview I read recently with Howard Weinstein,
it's damn hard to break in with a Trek novel, since Pocket Books is
more likely to buy manuscripts from people who have written them
before, because they know that they can deliver, whereas a new
author is an unknown element. His advice (and he told me this at
Baltimore's Shore Leave when I spoke to him at the autograph
session) is to write an original novel first, then show it to the
people at Pocket Books, and say "Look at what I've written in the
past. I want to write a Trek novel." This approach is more likely to
succeed than making your first professional sale in the Trek
subgenre. Besides, original ideas are what SF is all about, isn't
it? Editors are much more impressed with not only original ideas,
but original characterisations, and let's face it. As much as I like
to write Trek, there's very little imagination involved outside of
the plot and the "guest stars". The main characters are all well
established, the physics is well established, and the universe is
well established. All you need are a plot and some interesting guest
stars. Janet Kagan's _Uhura's Song_ is a prime example. It's a
beautiful book, but written outside of the Trek subgenre, it
probably would have won awards (in this amateur writer's humble
opinion, anyway. :-) )

So anyway, the advice I've heard is to go for originality first,
then pitch your ideas for a Trek novel to Pocket Books.

Lance A. Sibley
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 09:32:30 GMT
From: boyajian@akov68.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: re: Trekkie books

From:   watmath!lasibley        (Lance A. Sibley)
>> For fans or beginning authors, though, it's a relatively easy way
>> to break into print.
>
> Where did you hear this? If it's true, please be a little bit more
> precise in citing you sources so that I can check up on them...I
> have 200 pages of writing rotting at home with no outlet for it!

Notice I said "relatively". There are *no* "easy" ways to break into
print. The reason I consider writing Trek novels to be "relatively
easy" is because of what you point out later: that half the work,
i.e. the characters and the background universe, are already made up
for the hopeful writer. All he or she has to worry about is the
silly little details like plot, writing, and how to work him- or
herself into the story.

> According to an interview I read recently with Howard Weinstein,
> it's damn hard to break in with a Trek novel, since Pocket Books
> is more likely to buy manuscripts from people who have written
> them before, because they know that they can deliver, whereas a
> new author is an unknown element.

Well, I would say it depends a lot on who happens to be the Star
Trek editor at Pocket Books that particular week. Besides, empirical
evidence suggests otherwise. Most of the authors I've seen come out
with Trek novels from Pocket Books have never been seen before and
rarely been seen elsewhere.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 21:43:34 GMT
From: brantley@vax1.acs.udel.edu (RILEY)
Subject: HexaCon -- information please ?

Does anybody have any info on HexaCon?  It's being held in Lancaster
January 8-10.  I have the mailing address, but I would really like
to go, and I'm afraid transactions by mail will take too long (what
with Christmas and New Year's and all).  If anybody has a phone
number or suggests on where to look for the phone number I would
really appreciate it.

thanks in advance,
brantley

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 16:52:17 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Laid Back Con Announcement (Jan 15-17)

If you're interested in getting together with some interesting folks
for a weekend of miscellaneous fun and munchie eating (and maybe
some Photon) I just thought I'd let you know about:

   CONVELESCENCE III (probably spelled wrong)
   Emabassy Suites Crystal City, VA
   January 15-17, 1988

This is a relaxicon in the old sense, just a bunch of folks getting
together in a good hotel (suites sleep up to 4 comfortably) with the
con supplying a central meeting suite and munchies.  Filksingers,
comics writers (Hi, Peter), lots of strange video (maybe I'll
finally get to see the tape of Harlan's Opera from Philcon).

Let me know if you're attending (you don't have to, but I need to
know how much stuff to buy) but you can pay at the door.  Deal with
the hotel on your own, their phone # is 703-979-9799.

It'd be fun to see what a lot of you folks look like.

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 87 21:21:23 GMT
From: lakesys!jtk@RUTGERS.EDU (Joe Klein)
Subject: A Future Christmas

A Future Christmas
   by Joseph T. Klein

   We wandered along the rocky heights above the Pacific shore.
Seagulls wheeled and shrieked far above the calm blue waters. Below
us the group we where seeking frolicked on a small stretch of sand
beach.
   "There they are below," she said as we walked down the path.
   I had met her at a computer conference in Saucillito. She was an
intriguing woman. She had golden brown skin, high cheek bones and
dark brown eyes. She proudly called herself a pan-racial, for she
had the blood of all the earth's races coursing through her veins.
Her voice a rich mix of cosmopolitan accents. Her style of
addressing people would have made her at home in the board room of
any multinational corporation or at any diplomatic affair. She had
class.
   We followed the path down to the beach. The deteriorating
remnants of the World War II coastal defenses lined a section of the
path. We stopped at an old gun emplacement to catch our breath. She
stood at the center of the rusting gun mounting and looked out at
the Pacific. Her long black hair swirled about her face, driven by
the cool Pacific breeze.
   "Look out there," she said as she pointed at two waterspouts far
from shore.
   "Gray Whales," I commented.
   "It's late in the year to see them. They migrate from Alaska to
their breeding grounds in Baja each year."
   "They are magnificent," she said.
   She smiled like a child.
   I touched her on the arm. She turned and kissed me softly on the
lips.  "Vanessa, why did you ask me to come here with you?" I asked.
   "You looked like a man in need of an adventure."
   She wiggled her eyebrows and smiled.
   She grabbed my sweater and started to button it up.
   "Come now. You take life too seriously. Come and meet my
friends."  She took my hand and dragged me down the path to the
beach below.  The group below consisted of six people. An elderly
woman dressed in a long coat with a Afghani hat was shepherding a
young boy. The boy was obviously Vanessa's, the eyes and the smile
matched hers. A man in his early forties, who I gathered by his
accent was Russian, was talking with an elderly gentleman with thick
glasses and a pipe. Two women, who looked to be the collegiate type
where sitting on a large rock, engaged in an animated discussion.
The Russian seeing us approach, turned and walked in our direction.
   "Vanessa. I see you have collected another," the Russian said as
he embraced her in a friendly bear hug.
   "Alexi, I would like you to meet Joseph. I met him at the I.C.M.
conference. I think he would be a good one to join our group."
   Alexi pumped my hand with a bone crushing handshake.
   "Joseph, It is a pleasure to meet you," he said as he released
his grip.
   "Thank you Alexi," I responded, "The pleasure is all mine."
   "..and this is Doctor Rudolf Nueman. Rudy this is Joseph,"
Vanessa said as she pulled me toward the elderly man in thick
glasses.
   "Joseph. It is always a pleasure to meet Vanessa's friends," Rudy
said as he subjected me to another bone crushing European style
handshake.
   "Doctor Nueman? Are you the Doctor Nueman of the Swiss Institute
of Physics at Beirn?" I asked with more than a bit of astonishment
in my voice.
   "Please, call me Rudy. So you have heard of me?".
   "Yes. I have read your work. Your theories on time and space are
a bit over my head, but I have had need to understand them. I have
been working with Doctor Su Lang at the University of Wisconsin at
Madison in an attempt to verify some of your equations. The formulas
you developed are giving his Cray XV quite a workout. We had to
develop completely new coding algorithms to even come up with a
partial solution."
   Rudy frowned slightly at hearing of my work.
   "How close are you to the solution?" Alexi asked.
   "I finished the last piece of code last night. It's in my
portable computer, in the trunk of my car. Vanessa talked me into
this outing before I had a chance to modem the code to Su Lang's
account. Even If he gets it tomorrow, I don't think it would be run
until after the end of the New Years break. I belive Doctor Su Lang
went to Boston for Christmas, so the code would just sit in the
computer until he returns."
   "Su Lang works for the Military." Vanessa whispered, her eyes
glared at me.
   "What the Hell is going on here?" I whispered back.
   "Please, calm yourself," Rudy said to Vanessa softly.'
   "You do understand the implications of the equations?" Alexi
asked.
   "Look, to tell the truth, I've had my nose so deep in computer
code I haven't had a chance to even think about it. Why? Should the
solution be kept out of the hands of the military? What are they
going to do with time/space equations? Build a time bomb?"
   "We fear the military will not let us share it with the world,"
Vanessa said to me as if chiding a small child.
   The two women who had been sitting on a rock came over.
   "Please, let us not forget our manners," Rudy said to Vanessa.
   "Yes Rudy. Joseph. This is Mary Colsmith and Lisa DeVincelli,
they are researchers at JPL."
   "It is my pleasure to meet you Mary."
   "Joseph, glad to meet you. I've read some of your postings on the
computer network." Mary said.
   I blushed slightly. I was known as a bit of a loony by the people
who read my stories on the net.
   "Lisa..."
   "Glad to meet you Joseph." Lisa's voice carried a slight Italian
accent.
   "Lastly I would like you to meet my mother-in-law Chandra, and my
son Adam.  Chandra doesn't speak any English."
   "Hello Chandra, Adam."
   I smiled and nodded at the elderly woman and the child.
   "Hello," Adam said with a shy smile before retreating behind his
grandmother's long coat.
   An uncomfortable silence descended on the group.
   Alex cleared his throat, "How about lunch? I'm starved."
   Chandra and Vanessa unpacked a large picnic basket and a small
grill. Rudy, Alex, Mary and Lisa started to discussed a project they
referred to as "Ariel". Mary and Lisa where obviously a bit
un-nerved about my presence, so I silently went off to help Adam
build a sand castle, so as not to disturb their conversation.
   I had just finished helping Adam build a moat around the outer
fortifications when Vanessa tapped me on the shoulder, "I know you
feel uncomfortable. Please come and sit with us"
   "What's for lunch?"
   "Roasted lamb, cold mousaka, mint salad, retcina, ouzo, and
conversation" she said as we strolled back to the group.
   "Ouzo? Are you trying to get me drunk?"
   "If that's what it takes," she said with a lecherous smile.
   We ate, drank, and told stories to each other until the sunset.
   It was a cloudless night, the stars shone brightly above our
heads. We built a small fire to kill the chill of the cool pacific
breeze.  Adam lay sleeping in a blanket, snuggled against Chandra. I
was reclined with my head in Vanessa's lap. The others stared into
the fire.
   "I never thought I would spend Christmas eve on a beach in
northern California drinking ouzo," I said.
   "Are you glad I invited you Joseph?" Vanessa said as she played
with my hair.
   "Invited? I think I was seduced." I said sarcastically.
   "Tell me why you invited me. Why am I here?"
   "Have some more ouzo," Rudy said as he poured more ouzo in my
glass.
   "You have seen the formulas, You have worked with them, do you
understand them?" Alexi inquired of me.
   "I think... It has been in the back of my mind. Sitting here
under the stars has brought it back to me."
   "Vanessa knew you had the answer. You hinted at it in your
conversation with her at the I.C.M. conference," Rudy said as he lit
his pipe.
   "Yes Joseph, at the cocktail party. You do remember."
   "Vanessa dear. Half of what I said was the talk of a tipsy
computer programer trying to pick you up."
   I paused, the thought that came to me sent a shiver down my
spine.
   "You don't mean that garbage about building a faster than light
drive?"
   They all starred at me and said nothing.
   "JPL, Rudy's equation, fear of the military... None of this could
make sense unless you have it."
   "I defected from Russia when I realized what Rudy's equation
meant," Alex said.
   "Mary and I left the Jet Propulsion Lab when we realized it,"
Lisa added.
   "Vanessa completed the equation for me on the Berkeley Cray six
months ago. She then organized this conspiracy," Rudy concluded.
   "I had to stop you from sending the completed code. We could not
risk the slightest chance that the military would find out. We
finished the prototype last night. We have all been under
observation. We needed one more day.  Tomorrow we give it as a gift
to the world," Vanessa said.
   "Faster than light travel. Warp Drive. My God. Tomorrow you're
giving humanity, us, the world..."
   Vanessa put her hand to my lips to quiet me and said, "Tomorrow
we give our children the galaxy."

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #551
Date: 21 Dec 87 0950-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #551
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Dec 87 0950-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #551
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 551

Today's Topics:

                  Television - Star Trek (14 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 03:18:53 GMT
From: dasys1!wlinden@RUTGERS.EDU (William Linden)
Subject: Re: ST-TNG - Awful Jewish Aliens

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the Ferrengi are
>obviously just rehashed anti-Semitic stereotypes?

Well, to paraphrase Arthur Dent, this must be some strange use of
the word "obvious" I was previously unacquainted with. Is Poul
Anderson's Van Rijn, in his relentless pursuit of profit, an
anti-Semitic stereotype (even if he is probably not your glass of
Genever) ?

Will Linden
{bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wlinden

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 02:39:44 GMT
From: malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Subject: Re: Klingon females

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>Valkris, the female agent in the movie, was not a Klingon, but a
>Romulan.  The Klingons and Romulans have a long-standing alliance.
>Valkris looked absolutely nothing like a Klingon.

Look again.  Valkris has the spiny forehead ridge (a little less
pronounced than that of the Klingon Captain, but there nonetheless).

Malcolm L. Carlock
malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 23:42:59 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Trekkie Books

Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.portal.com writes:
>Nowadays, all ST books are written by *fans* (note that the word
>"fan" is a shortened form of "fanatic") who are motivated only by
>their obession with the particular subgenre and have no feeling for
>the nuts and bolts of SF.

While 'fan' might have started as a shortened form of 'fanatic', and
some fen may still earn a right to the longer form, your assertion
about the motivation of those writing ST books is demonstrably
untrue.  While all of those currently writing ST books *are* fans of
the series, many of them are still quite well established SF writers
in their own right.  John M. Ford won the World Fantasy Award for
his book "The Dragon Waiting".  Vonda McIntyre won at least one
Hugo.  Diane Duane, Barbara Hambly, and Laurence Yep are all
well-respected authors in the field.  None of those seem
particularly 'obsessed' with the ST subgenre.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 87 22:41:39 GMT
From: uokmax!tegarvin@RUTGERS.EDU (Theodore E Garvin)
Subject: Who to keep, Who to kill

I would get rid of Geordi LaForge, who seems more of a technical
plot device than interesting character at times.  I mean, having him
look out the windows as if his visor was better equipped than ships
sensors (at that rate, why don't they run afoul of 'asteroid
storms').

Send Wesley Crusher to Starfleet Academy/Engineering School and make
him work his keester off backing up genius with traditional sweat
(Differential equations anyone?)

Ryker seems slightly redundant.  How many captains are there on a
starship anyway?  (We know there are probably three Chief
Engineers).

Keep Data, Lt. Worf, Lt. Yar, the Betamax (but ease up on the OO!
FEELINGS!) and get some better writers (or stories at any rate).

I haven't read the writer's guide nor have I seen many of the early
episodes (I missed part two of episode/story one).  I was
speculating that perhaps Picard and Crusher had had a fling a few
years back (explaining some scenes where something more than Captain
to Chief Surgeon seemed to be involved) and that Wesley is the
result (maybe explains why Picard is bending the rules for him).
What do you think?

Ted Garvin
tegarvin@uokmax

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1987 22:32 EDT
From: Stan Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12

  Hello everyone.  I am in the process of reading two weeks worth of
mail.  It seems there is much consternation regarding bigotry in
Star Trek: The Next Generation.  Oooh, the tears are just flowing
out of my baby blues!  The comments I am reading seem to indicate an
inability to deal with the basic differences in individuals and
races.  Sue the new nemesis in ST:TNG show much greed and other
characteristics which can be considered anti- semetic but those
individuals with very thin skins.  However, a simple fact of life,
(real as well as scifi) is that people and races will have certain
characteristics.  Speaking as a Jew, there is a perfectly rational
reason why Jews are known for intelligence and business acumen.  The
Jewish religion stresses knowledge and the aquisition of it whereas
many other religions give learning a much lower priority.  Several
religions even stress ignorance.  Business skills are just one facet
of knowledge that Jews like myself were encouraged to learn.  This
tradition of learning and knowledge is often mistaken by
small-minded individuals as greed.  We are in a free country and
people here are allowed to think and say whatever they wish
including bigotry.  These same behaviors which some people might
find offensive are not so offensive to others.  Until reading my
mail from you guys, the Ferrengi did not seem like a product of
bigotry.  They are just greedy and self- servient.  If people see
this as a dig against the Jewish race, then why not also consider
how anti-Japanese the character of Wesley is.  He is a young kid who
is always getting in trouble with his knack for high technology.
His character sounds like a dig at the perceived abilities Asians
have in technically related ideas.  The character of Captain Picard
might also be considered offensive to the bald headed viewers of
ST:TNG.  He is shown as a slightly weak person who is apt to run
away from a fight rather than stand up and be brave.  This obviously
seems to indicate that all bald men are cowards.  And let's not
forget Riker.  He is a fine example of a typical WASP.  Were I a
WASP, I would be offended as Riker is always perfect.  Of course
these examples are totally exaggerated but there is a point.  The
only way ST:TNG or any other show can succeed in offending no one is
to portray all it's characters in a manner much like that of Riker.
Do we want a show full of perfect men who do no wrong?  I doubt it.
Such a show with no distincion between characters and races would be
very dull.  Sure the Ferrengis have some characteristics which many
Jewish people might find offensive, but life is full of people like
the Ferrengis and many of this nation's greatest movers and shakers
are extremely greedy and self-serving yet they fail to be considered
as Jewish.  We have to be able to grow up a little as a society and
realize things like the characterization of the Ferrengis don't
really matter and more time should be devoted to other concers.
Happy holidays every one unless of course you all don't celebrate
holidays so forget it.  I would not want to offend anyone by wishing
them a happy holiday season if they do not celebrate the holiday
season.  Bye

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1987 23:10 EDT
From: Stan Horwitz <V4039%TEMPLEVM.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12

   There is one problem with the idea that there was not enough time
for Data to recall the data access codes in order to control the
ship Picard was about to attack the Enterprise with.  The flaw in
the reasoning is the incorrect assumption that the data was
available to Data and anyone else on the Enterprise.  Those codes
were top secret information and were probably available only to
higher officers of Admiral or such.  A second officer, Riker might
not know that such codes exist.  The second officer on ST II: The
Wrath Of Kahn did not know of the existence of the codes.  Why
should Riker?  Even if data knew of such codes, he is still nothing
but a suped up PC and probably would not volunteer the information
unless specifically asked.

Stan Horwitz
V4039@TEMPLEVM
Temple University

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 21:31:07 GMT
From: sq!hobie@RUTGERS.EDU (Hobie Orris)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

   This is just a guess.  In WWII fighter planes, some had
machine-guns or cannons that would fire THROUGH the propellors.
This was accomplished by a gear that synchronized the blade motion
and the passage of the projectiles.  Perhaps the "shield break" is a
break in time, rather than a physical hole. You know, alternating
pulses of transporter and shield energy at the rate of millions of
pulses per second.

Hobie Orris
guest of SoftQuad Inc.
Toronto, Ont.
{ihnp4 | decvax}!utzoo!sq!hobie

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 15:16:54 GMT
From: madd@bu-cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

hobie@sq.UUCP (Hobie Orris) writes:
>   This is just a guess.  In WWII fighter planes, some had
>machine-guns or cannons that would fire THROUGH the propellors.
>This was accomplished by a gear that synchronized the blade motion
>and the passage of the projectiles.  Perhaps the "shield break" is
>a break in time, rather than a physical hole. You know, alternating
>pulses of transporter and shield energy at the rate of millions of
>pulses per second.

First, the synchronization didn't work too well in many of the
fighters.  They generally plated the propellor with steel (or
something similar) so that any bullets that were fired in sync with
the propellor wouldn't do too much damage.

As for alternating transporter/shield energy, this is a great idea
so long as you flicker the shield in only a small area.  Otherwise
all the attacking ship would have to do is hold a blast on the ship
while the shields flickered and that ship would take damage.  Not as
much as if the shields weren't there, but still....

jim frost
madd@bu-it.bu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 87 11:26:50 EST
From: "Michael R. Margerum" <DCHPC%UOTTAWA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Star Trek TNG ratings

I just heard some news about ST:TNG on the radio, and thought I
should pass it on.

The new show is third in syndicated ratings in the U.S. (they are
rated separately from network shows). The shows ahead of it are big
gameshows (one is Wheel of Fortune, I missed the other).  More
importantly, it is first in the 18-35 age group for both sexes,
which is the most important group for advertisers. As you may know,
it has had an early renewal for next season. The success of ST:TNG
has supposedly prompted Paramount to begin a new SF show for next
season, called "War of the Worlds" (I don't know how reliable this
last bit is).

Anyway, the future of ST:TNG looks quite good. I think it has been a
more or less reasonable show so far, and hopefully it will maintain
or improve its level of quality.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 87 12:41:09 EST
From: Atul Butte <ST602397%BROWNVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: More on languages in ST:TNG

I admit, this may be very nitpicking, but did you notice that all
the doors in the new series are labeled in English (or Standard)?
In all the movies, the turbolifts had their special icons, the
sickbay had its icon, etc. I liked it better with the icons; a
viewer could probably get more out of a picture than the same words.

Atul Butte
ST602397@BROWNVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 87 13:42:38 EST
From: loeb@math.mit.edu
To: lev0@sphinx.uchicago.edu
Subject: Transporters with Shields

Presumably the shield break is only big enough for the beam to get
through (ie: microscopic) and can be positioned whereever the beam
would normally intersect the shield.  Thus, a photon torpedo (being
about 4ft across) wouldn't fit through the break. Moreover, the
break need only exist for a fraction of a second while the beam is
in existence.

Danny

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 03:19:38 GMT
From: bucsb!sabre@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Alfred Burns)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

Well, I have a possible solution to the whole problem....

Bok announces "Shields up," which throws the shields up *according
to the preset settings.* To use the SFB wargame as an example, only
a couple of shields go up, probable shield 1 (the forward shield),
Shield 2 (shield to the forward right), and shield 6 (fore left.)
This gives the entire rear of the ship for Bok to transport out of,
but still effectively blocks Enterprise transporters.  Then, later,
when Picard has come to his senses, he wistfully says "bring me
home" or somesuch. The computers (highly sophisticated and set to
follow his commands) struggle to determine his command.  In an
incredible amount of time for these supercomputers (maybe four
seconds) it realises he wishes to be transported (his new command
assignment having been automatically logged by the computer during
the download of data to the Enterprise. Then the computer drops
shields and the *Stargazer's transporter* beams him over, instead of
the Enterprise's.

    Flame at will....

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 00:46:03 GMT
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Subject: Re: More on languages in ST:TNG

ST602397@brownvm.BITNET (Atul Butte) writes:
>I admit, this may be very nitpicking, but did you notice that all
>the doors in the new series are labeled in English (or Standard)?
>In all the movies, the turbolifts had their special icons, the
>sickbay had its icon, etc. I liked it better with the icons; a
>viewer could probably get more out of a picture than the same
>words.

This may have been true on the Enterprise in the movies, but that
seemed to be the only place.  I recently saw STII:TWOK again, and
the door to the starship simulator was labeled in English, and there
were English labels all over the place on the Regula space station.
I really liked the latter: things like GEOPLASTICS and THERMONICS
(I'm not sure about this one).

Barry Margolin
Thinking Machines Corp.
barmar@think.com
seismo!think!barmar

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 16:33:31 GMT
From: utx1!ashley@RUTGERS.EDU (Ashley Oliver)
Subject: Re: Transporters with Shields

madd@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Jim Frost) writes:
>>   This is just a guess.  In WWII fighter planes, some had
>>machine-guns or cannons that would fire THROUGH the propellors.
>>This was accomplished by a gear that synchronized the blade motion
>>and the passage of the projectiles.  Perhaps the "shield break" is
>>a break in time, rather than a physical hole. You know,
>>alternating pulses of transporter and shield energy at the rate of
>>millions of pulses per second.
>
> First, the synchronization didn't work too well in many of the
> fighters.  They generally plated the propellor with steel (or
> something similar) so that any bullets that were fired in sync
> with the propellor wouldn't do too much damage.

I find this somewhat silly. Can't we just drop the subject rather
than arguing endlessly about the physics of a TV producer's mind? On
the other hand I find this lack of imagination horrifying.

First, factual errors. Prop/gun sync mechanisms were WWI, well
before WWII. They worked very well (apart from one or two
prototype/development models). Props were metal-sheathed. Not as
armour-plating (a ridiculous idea), but for other reasons.

Now, transporters/shields. Why is everyone obsessed with
mechanical/spatial solutions? Obviously the correct analogy for the
shields is 'jamming' radio. Presumably a [predictably, if you know
the key] shifting 'frequency' is left clear for the transporters.
You can always beam out, the shields' computers tell the
transporters' computers which 'bands' are open on a (nano?) second
by second basis. You can't beam *into* a shielded ship without
cooperation from inside. Consider.  The shields must be tuneable,
no? Jean Luc can see out with the shields up, but they must be (very
rapidly) adjustable to block the visible spectrum too, or everyone
would be armed to the teeth with visible-light lasers.

Ashley P Oliver
Racal-Milgo
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
(305) 476 6880
{allegra|codas}!novavax!utx1!ashley

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #552
Date: 21 Dec 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #552
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Dec 87 1017-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #552
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 552

Today's Topics:

               Books - Brunner & 1987 Nebula Awards &
                       Species in SF (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 87 15:49 EDT
From: <MANAGER%smith.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU> (Mary Malmros)
Subject: brunner (was: cyberpunk, Gibson, depression, angst, anomie)

Forgive me if I lose people with my reference, but I refuse to nest
quotes more than two deep.

>>If you want depressing, try Brunner's *Stand on Zanzibar*.
>Stand on zanzibar is on the to read list, so I can't comment.
>Brunners world may be very well be more depressing.

_Stand_ is not Brunner's most depressing work, although I would call
it the second most depressing (at least of the ones I've read).  Of
the five of Brunner's books that I've read that deal with more or
less the same theme (a future world where everything is going to
hell because of overpopulation/pollution/racism/stupidity/angst/
anomie/whatever), all but one end with things starting to look
better.  _The Sheep Look Up_ is the one that doesn't make it.  The
other four are:

   _The Shockwave Rider_
   _The Stone That Never Came Down_
   _Stand on Zanzibar_
   ...and one whose name I can't remember, but the primary villain
seemed to be a bunch of people called Gottschalks.  They were arms
dealers, and they were a legitimate corporation but they were
structured more like the Mafia than like a business.  Their main
commitment was to produce and exacerbate conflicts, so as to be able
to sell more arms, although you don't figure that out right away
since the story is never told from their point of view.  Does anyone
know the name of this book?

Mary Malmros

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 20:48:38 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Final Nebula Awards Report for 1987

This is a listing of the final Nebula Awards Report for 1987. I've
typed in all the titles that received five or more votes in each
category and done a little summarizing that I think is interesting.
In general, the five top vote getters in each category will end up
on the final ballot, from which the SFWA members will choose the
winners.

Novel

Author: Title (Publisher) [Votes]

Wolfe, Gene: Soldier of the Mists (Tor) [25]
Murphy, Pat: The Falling Woman (Tor) [24]
Sargent, Pamela: The Shore of Women (Crown) [23]
Brin, David: The Uplift War (Bantam) [21]
Willis, Connie: Lincoln's Dreams (Bantam/Spectra) [19]
Effinger, George Alec: When Gravity Fails (Arbor House) [19]
Dick, P. K.: Radio Free Albemuth (Arbor House) [18]
Swanwick, Michael: Vacuum Flowers (Arbor House) [17]
Crowley, John: Aegypt (Bantam/Spectra) [14]
Bull, Emma: War for the Oaks (Ace) [14]

Beagle, Peter: The Folk of the Air (Del Rey) [12]
Friedman, C.S.: In Conquest Born (DAW) [12]
Grimwood, Ken: Replay (Arbor House) [12]
Moore, Alan & Gibbon, The Watchmen (DC) [12]
Shepard, Lucius: Life during Wartime (Bantam) [11]
Bear, Greg: The Forge of God (Tor) [10]
Dickson, Gordon R.: The Way of the Pilgrim (Berkley) [10]
Pohl, Fredrik: The Annals of the Heechee (Del Rey) [9]
Koman, Victor: The Jehovah Contract (Franklin Watts) [9]
Longyear, Barry: Sea of Glass (St. Martin's) [9]

Davidson, Avram: Vergil in Averno (Doubleday) [9]
Koontz, Dean R.: Watchers (Putnam) [9]
MacAvoy, R.A.: The Grey Horse (Bantam/Spectra) [8]
Jeter, K.W.: Infernal Devices (St. Martin's) [8]
Blaylock, James P.: Land of Dreams (Arbor House) [8]
Niven, Larry: Smoke Ring (Del Rey) [8]
Brust, Steven: The Sun, The Moon and the Stars (Ace) [8]
Butler, Octavia: Dawn (Warner) [7]
Kube-McDowell, Michael P.: Empery (Berkley) [7]
Cadigan, Pat: Mindplayers (Bantam) [7]

Shaw, Bob: The Ragged Astronauts (Baen) [7]
Grant, Richard: Rumours of Spring (Bantam/Spectra) [7]
McCammon, Robert R.: Swan Song (Pocket) [7]
Card, Orson Scott: Wyrms (Arbor House) [7]
Jones, Gwynneth: Divine Endurance (Arbor House) [6]
Elgin, Suzette Hadin: The Judas Rose (DAW) [6]
Tepper, Sherri S.: Northshore (Tor) [6]
Resnick, Mike: Stalking the Unicorn (Tor) [6]
Heinlein, Robert A.: To Sail Beyond the Sunset (Ace) [5]
Shwartz, Susan: Byzantium's Crown (Questar) [5]

Faust, Joe Clifford: A Death of Honor (Del Rey) [5]
Vance, Jack: The Green Pearl (Tim Underwood) [5]
Rosenberg, Joel: The Heir Apparent (Signet/NAL) [5]
McQuay, Mike: Memories (Bantam/Spectra) [5]
King, Stephen: Misery (Viking) [5]
Powers, Tim: On Stranger Tides (Ace) [5]
Bishop, Michael: The Secret Ascension (Tor) [5]
Card, Orson Scott: Seventh Son (Tor) [5]
Suchartikul, Somtow: The Shattered Horse (Tor) [5] [As S.P. Somtow]

143 titles got less than five votes (no, I'm not typing them in)

   Publishing totals:

   Ace (4)
   Arbor House (7)
   Baen (1)
   Bantam (8)
   Berkley (2)
   Crown (1)
   Daw (2)
   DC (1)
   Del Rey (4)
   Doubleday (1)
   Franklin Watts (1)
   Pocket (1)
   Putnam (1)
   Questar (1)
   St. Martin's (2)
   Tim Underwood (1)
   Tor (8)
   Viking (1)
   Warner (1)

Novella

Ryman, Geoff: The Unconquered Country (Bantam, novella length book)
   [18]
Robinson, Kim Stanley: The Blind Geometer (IASFM) [15]
Kelly, James Patrick: Glass Cloud (IASFM) [15]
Card, Orson Scott: Eye for Eye (IASFM) [14]
Griffin, Russell: Saving Time (F&SF) [13]
Robinson, Kim Stanley: Mother Goddess of the World (IASFM) [12]
Silverberg, Robert: The Secret Sharer (IASFM) [11]
Turtledove, Harry: Superwine (IASFM) [9]
Williams, Walter Jon: Witness (Wild Cards 1) [9]
Flynn, Michael: The Forest of Time (Analog) [8]

Roberts, Keith: The Tiger Sweater (F&SF) [7]
Moon, Elizabeth: A Delicate Adjustment (Analog) [6]
Ford, John M.: Fugue State (Under the Wheel [Baen]) [6]
Zahn, Timoth: Banshee (Analog) [5]

17 titles got less than five votes

Novellete

Murphy, Pat: Rachel in Love (IASFM) [38]
McAllister, Bruce: Dream Baby (IASFM) [25]
Barrett, Neal, Jr.: Perpetuity Blues (IASFM) [21]
Williams, Walter Jon: Dinosaurs (IASFM) [20]
Sterling, Bruce: Flowers of Edo (IASFM) [20]
Card, Orson Scott: America (IASFM) [17]
Wightman, Wayne: Cage 37 (F&SF) [17]
Robinson, Kim Stanley: The Return from Rainbow Bridge (F&SF) [16]
Shepard, Lucius: The Sun Spider (IASFM) [16]
McDevitt, Jack: Dutchman (IASFM) [14]

Card, Orson Scott: Runaway (IASFM) [12]
Kress, Nancy: Cannibals (IASFM) [11]
Watson, Ian: Evil Water (F&SF) [11]
Shepard, Lucius: On the Border (IASFM) [11]
Weiner, Andrew: Wavers (IASFM) [11]
LeGuin, Ursula K.: Buffalo Gals Won't you come out Tonight (F&SF) [10]
Jablokov, Alexander: At the Cross-Time Jaunter's Ball (IASFM) [9]
Butler, Octavia: The Evening and the Morning and the Night (Omni) [9]
Shea, Michael: The Extra (F&SF) [9]
Kessel, John: Judgement Call (F&SF) [9]

Weiner, Andrew: Rider (IASFM) [9]
Shepard, Lucius: Shades (In the Field of fire [Tor]) [9]
Sheffield, Charles: Trapalanda (IASFM) [9]
Tiptree, James Jr.: Yanqui Doodle (IASFM) [9]
Sullivan, Timothy: Dinosaur on a Bicycle (IASFM) [8]
Allen, Roger MacBride: A Hole in the Sun (Analog) [8]
Leman, Bob: Olida (F&SF) [8]
Yolen, Jane: The White Babe (IASFM) [8]
Engh: M.J.: Aurin Tree (IASFM) [7]
Manzione, Joseph: Candle in a Cosmic Wind (Analog) [7]

Strete, Craig Kee: The Game of Cat and Eagle (In the Field of fire
  [Tor]) [7]
Weiner, Andrew: Going to Meet the Alien (F&SF) [7]
Watson, Ian: The Moon and Michelangelo (IASFM) [7]
McAuley, Paul J.: The Temporary King (F&SF) [7]
McDowell, Michael: Halley's Passing (TZ) [6]
Ewing, George M.: A Little farther up the Fox (IASFM) [6]
Bretnor, Reginald: There's Magic in Shakespeare (Night Cry) [6]
Chase, Robert: The Changeling Hunt (Analog) [5]
Casper, Susan: Covenant with a Dragon (In the Field of fire [Tor])
   [5]
Carpenter, Leonard: Fearing's Fall (Amazing) [5]

Busby, David: The Gallery of Masks (F&Sf) [5]
Forde, Pat: The Gift (Analog) [5]
Robertson, R. Garcia y: Moon of Popping Trees (Amazing) [5]
Tiptree, James Jr.: Second Going (Universe 17) [5]
Effinger, George Alec: Skylab Done It (F&Sf) [5]
Zelazny, Roger: The Sleeper (Wild Cards 1) [5]
Sheffield, Charles: Trader's Cross (Analog) [5]
Williams, Walter Jon: Wolf Time (IASFM) [5]

72 titles had less than 5 votes

Short Story

Fowler, Karen Joy: The Faithful Companion at Forty (IASFM) [22]
Cadigan, Pat: Angel (IASFM) [21]
Goldstein, Lisa: Cassandra's Photographs (IASFM) [17]
Shepard, Lucius: The Glassblower's Dragon (F&SF) [15]
Zebrowski, George: This Life and Later Ones (Analog) [14]
Funnell, Augustine: Maxie Silas (F&SF) [13]
Shwartz, Susan: Temple to a Minor Goddess (Amazing) [12]
Strickland, Brad: Oh Tin Man, Tin Man there's no place like home
   (F&SF) [11]
Watt-Evans, Lawrence: Why I left Harry's All-night Hamburgers
   (IASFM) [11]
Shepard, Lucius: Delta Sly Honey (In the Field of fire [Tor]) [10]

Carroll, Jonathan: Friend's Best Man (F&SF) [10]
Whitlock, Dean: The Million-dollar Wound (F&SF) [10]
Blaylock, James P.: Myron Chester and the Toads (IASFM) [10]
Emshwiller, Carol: The Circular Library of Stones (OMNI) [9]
Barnes, John: Digressions from the Second Person Future (IASFM) [9]
Shepard, Lucius: White Trains (Night Cry) [9]
Cortesi, David E.: A Bomb in the Head (Amazing) [8]
Laidlaw, Marc: Faust Forward (F&SF) [8]
Randall, Marta: Lapidary Nights (Universe 17) [8]
Oltion, Jerry: The Love Song of Laura Morrison (Analog) [8]

Waldrop, Howard: Night of the cooters (Omni) [8]
Russo, Richard Paul: Prayers of a Rain God (F&SF) [8]
Morrow, James: Spelling god with the Wrong Blocks (F&SF) [8]
Di Filippo, Paul: Agents (F&SF) [7]
Wilson, Robert Charles: Ballads in 3/4 Time (F&SF) [7]
Leguin, Ursula K.: Daddy's Big Girl (Omni) [7]
Wilson, F. Paul: Day-Tay-Vao (Amazing) [7]
Haldeman, Joe: DA (In the Field of fire [Tor]) [7]
Wilhelm, Kate: Forever Yours, Anna (Omni) [7]
Sheffield, Charles: The Grand Tour (Analog) [7]

Barrett, Neal Jr.: HighBrow (IASFM) [7]
Smeds, Dave: Termites (IASFM) [7]
Young, Robert F.: What Bleak Land (F&SF) [7]
Ferguson, Brad: The World Next Door (IASFM) [7]
Zebrowski, George: Behind the Night (F&SF) [6]
Cadigan, Pat: The Boys in the Rain (Twilight Zone) [6]
Di Filippo, Paul: Red Charlemagne (Amazing) [6]
Jacobs, Harvey: Kitten Kaboodle and Sidney Australia (F&SF) [6]
Gallagher, Stephen: Like Clockwork (F&SF) [6]
Boston, Bruce: Night Rides (Night Cry) [6]

Popkes, Steven: The Rose Garden (IASFM) [6]
Harper, Rory: Snorkeling in the River Lethe (Amazing) [6]
Palwick, Susan: The Visitation (Amazing) [6]
Rucker, Rudy: Bringing in the Sheaves (IASFM) [5]
Malzberg, Barry: Celbrating (F&SF) [5]
Owens, Barbara: Chain (F&SF) [5]
Murphy, Pat: Clay Devils (Twilight Zone) [5]
Kessel, John: Credibility (In the Field of fire [Tor]) [5]
Shiner, Lewis: Dancers (Night Cry) [5]
Weiner, Andrew: Fake-Out (Amazing) [5]

Kress, Nancy: Glass (IASFM) [5]
Farber, Sharon: Ice Dreams (IASFM) [5]
Fowler, Karen Joy: Letters from Home (In the Field of fire [Tor]) [5]
Williamson, Chet: Letters to Mother (F&SF) [5]
Soukup, Martha: Living in the Jungle (Writers of the future 3) [5]
Sherman, Delia: Main on the Shore (F&SF) [5]
Cook, Rick: Mortality (Analog) [5]
Boston, Bruce: One Trick Dog (Amazing) [5]
Wolfe, Gene: The Peace Spy (IASFM) [5]
Cohen, Jon: Preserves (Twilight Zone) [5]
Zahn, Timothy: The President's doll (Analog) [5]
Malzberg, Barry: The Queen of Lower Saigon (In the Field of fire
   [Tor]) [5]
Lake, Paul: Rat Boy (F&Sf) [5]
Grant, Charles L.: This Old Man (Night Cry) [5]
Casper, Susan: Under Her Skin (Amazing) [5]
Dann, Jack: Visitors (IASFM) [5]

252 titles got less than 5 votes.

Number of nominations by Author:

7 Shepard
5 Card
4 Weiner
3 Cadigan Murphy Robinson Sheffield Williams
2 Barrett Blaylock Boston Butler Casper Di Filippo Effinger Fowler
  Grant Kessel Kress Malzberg Shwartz Tiptree Watson Wilson Wolfe
  Zahn Zebrowski

Number of non-novel nominations by Magazine/Anthology:

43 IASFM
32 F&SF
13 Analog
11 Amazing
8 In the Field of fire [Tor]
5 Night Cry
5 Omni
4 Twilight Zone
2 Universe 17
2 Wild Cards 1
1 Bantam, novella length book
1 Under the Wheel [Baen]
1 Writers of the future #3

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 19:11:40 GMT
From: jeff@aiva.edinburgh.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

jmm@thoth8.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU () writes:
 doing good humans is even harder than doing good aliens.  [...]
>Readers know when writers are failing at human characterization.
>When you're talking about aliens, you get to write your own rules.
>[...]

But for good humans I don't have to look to SF; for good aliens I
do.

Actually, the issue isn't necessarily aliens per se.  Most authors
are pretty poor at creating any kind of being (human or otherwise)
with an inner life much different than an 80's college student.

Jeff Dalton
AI Applications Institute
Edinburgh University
JANET: J.Dalton@uk.ac.ed
ARPA:  J.Dalton%uk.ac.ed@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
UUCP:  ...!ukc!ed.ac.uk!J.Dalton

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 20:34:56 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF

tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>What other exceptions to stereotyped aliens are there?

In my mind, the only competition to The Mote in God's Eye for the
best aliens is Asimov's The Gods Themselves.  The aliens are *very*
different, yet very much individuals.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 20:38:37 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF; in ST and in general

jmm@thoth8.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU () writes:
>franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes:
>>Of course, for this to really work, the aliens have to be, by
>>human standards, weirder than most fictional aliens are.  Maybe
>>weirder than we can imagine.  Doing good aliens is *hard*.
>But doing good humans is even harder than doing good aliens.  ...
>Readers know when writers are failing at human characterization.
>... if your alien is different enough, you can concentrate on the
>differences to distract your readers ...

This is not the standard of goodness I was using.  It may indeed be
harder to do passable humans than passable aliens, but I still
maintain that it is harder to do *good* aliens.

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 13:07:55 PST (Thursday)
Subject: Re: Species-ism in F&SF
From: Josh Susser <Susser.pasa@Xerox.COM>

Wayne Throop writes:
>Note that this discussion also relates to the
>fairly-recently-discussed silly tendency for SF authors to create
>"The X planet of Y", where X takes on values of Earth extremes
>which hold for the entire planet.  As in "The Ice Planet of Blog",
>or "The Ocean Planet of Sloshia."

This trick probably goes way back in SF, but the earliest example I
can think of isthe *Foundation* trilogy. Maybe it was because
psychohistory could only work with planet-sized chunks of people
:-), but every planet in the series seemed completely homogenized.

The best example I've read of, well, of complexifying (complicating
isn't the right opposite of simplifying) worlds was *Stars in my
Pocket Like Grains of Sand* by Delaney. In *Stars*, every world
seemed to be more complex than one character, or reader, could ever
hope to comprehend. pico-spoiler: [At one point in the book, our
hero meets someone who stikes him as very strange. He asks the
stranger what far-off world he comes from. The stranger answers that
he is from a city on the north end of the continent our hero lives
on.] To make matters worse, the whole galaxy was filled with complex
worlds, all very different, all filled with very complex people. In
fact, the complexity of life sometimes got to be a bit more than
people (or worlds) could handle. This seems much more likely to me
than a typically-SF, homogenized, low-fat universe.

On the track of the original discussion, the Titanides in *Titan*
etc. (by John Varley) seem to be a good example of exceptions to
species-ism. I loved the those guys. As a species, they were pretty
neat, but as individuals, they were more personalized than most
authors' humans. And Varley's humans, well...

later

Josh Susser
Susser.pasa@Xerox.com

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #553
Date: 21 Dec 87 1043-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #553
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Dec 87 1043-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #553
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 553

Today's Topics:

             Television - Fantastic Journey (2 msgs) &
                          Questor (3 msgs) & Ultraman & 
                          UFO (2 msgs) & Old SF TV (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 13:06:29 GMT
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Subject: Re: The Fantastic JOURNEY vs. VOYAGE

7GMADISO@pomona.BITNET writes:
> People, The Fantastic Voyage was a MOVIE.  To my knowledge, it was
> NEVER a series.  (and a book.------ )

   Sure it was. There was a Saturday morning cartoon called
FANTASTIC VOYAGE in the late 60's or early 70's. It did not use the
same characters from the movie, so no Raquel Welch doing the voice
of the female crewmember.  There were four people in the group as I
recall:

   The leader who wore an eyepatch
   The obligatory female
   A Hindu with strange powers
   And a brash young man.

   At the time, the stories were okay for kids. I have no idea how
they would play now since I can't remember a single story line.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 00:10:49 GMT
From: leonard@puff.gwd.tek.com (Leonard Bottleman)
Subject: Re: The Fantastic JOURNEY vs. VOYAGE

7GMADISO@pomona.BITNET writes:
>People, The Fantastic Voyage was a MOVIE.  To my knowledge, it was
>NEVER a series.

There was an animated "Fantastic Voyage" series in the early 70s,
which was loosely based on the movie.

In the series, the "Proteus" could fly and hover as well as travel
under water, and the regular crew consisted of the scientist who
designed the Proteus (Busby Birdwell?), an Indian mystic (Hadji?),
the commander (I don't remember his name at all), and a woman (she
could have been the commander's girl-friend - I don't remember her
name either). The ship and crew were part of an organization called
CMDF (Combined Miniaturization Defense Force). I think the series
lasted two seasons.

Leonard Bottleman
leonard@elf.GWD.TEK.COM

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 08:58:46 PST (Thursday)
From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: One more long-gone show   V12 #543

>Anyone remember a movie called _The_Questor_Tapes_ ?

Ah yes I remember Questor. It was a pilot for a series created by
Gene Roddenberry (any one ever heard of this guy? :-)) Questor was
supposed to be the last of a long line of androids watching/guiding
humanity. Each of the 'droids had a limited lifespan, a couple of
hundred years or so. As each 'droid 'wore out' he was supposed to
build and program his replacement. Questor's predecessor
miscalculated the amount of time he had left to build his
replacement. How or where he got the finding to build Questor I
don't remember. However I believe a good portion of Questor's
components had been completed before the project was turned over to
the Government/school/research facility to finish Questor. Said
andriod (let's call him Questor's father this is getting tedious)
did two other things before his "death" One: he programmed Questor
with the location of the secret base where he was to go to receive
the remainder of his programing.  Second. Questor's dad trained a
young scientist/engineer to head up the project and finish Questor.
The bulk of the movie was about Questor trying to find the secret
base. The interesting twist to this was that there had been
established a network of, shall we say, substations, all over the
world with people Questor could contact for help. If I remember
correctly, each of these substations had limited repair and
programming facilities. The programming Questor had was only
partial. So questor had to piece together what information he had to
find the base. As I remember also, either because of his incomplete
construction, or because of injuries, I don't remember which
(Questor got shot somewhere along the way) there was a limited
amount of time Questor had to find the base. If he didn't find it in
time the fission reactor that served as his stomach would explode
and take out a couple of city blocks. Needless to say ,Questor finds
the base with seconds to spare and get finished.

Wendel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 87 16:29:52 -0500
From: new@UDEL.EDU
Subject: Re: _Questor_Tapes_

   **** MINOR SPOILERS ****

The problem was that the scientists had tries to decode the
programming tapes, which had erased (self-destruct) that portion.
Unfortunately, the portion erased was the robot's mission.  Also, if
the robot did not complete his programming by finding his creator
(or something like that), within a number of days, his nuclear power
plant would overload and blow.  I don't remember exactly how he
figures out where he is to go, but the human sympathizer (sp?) that
is helping is the only human to ever learn about this looooonnnnnnng
line of andriods.  It also turns out that Questor is to be the last
andriod, as humanity has "grown up".

Good movie.  See it if you have a chance.  It's probably deeper than
I remember.

Darren

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 87 18:36:35 GMT
From: drilex!carols@RUTGERS.EDU (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: _Questor_Tapes_

new@UDEL.EDU writes
>Good movie.  See it if you have a chance.  It's probably deeper
>than I remember.

Not really.  But it certainly seemed that way, to my early
adolescent self.  (I had the hots for Robert Foxworth, who played
Questor.)

Other Questor trivia:

Questor's human companion was played by Mike Farrell, who later
starred opposite Alan Alda in M*A*S*H.

The original script called for Questor to get vital information at
one point by making love to Dana Winter.  The network nixed this on
the grounds of (as Roddenberry put it) "Would you want your sister
to sleep with a robot?"  The final version had Questor securing the
information by offering his "friendship" and touching her heart
(figuratively, figuratively...)

Robert Foxworth went on to play the Frankenstein monster in another
made-for-TV movie.

Carol Springs
Data Resources/McGraw-Hill
24 Hartwell Avenue
Lexington, MA  02173
{rutgers|ames|mit-eddie}!ll-xn!drilex!carols

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 87 10:14:08 ECT
From: John Cummings <AS0JHC%BINGVMA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: OLd SF TV...

Tony B. writes:
>Wasn't this the guy who would cross his arms to form sort of a
>Pseudo-Plus sign, and a laser like beam( or set of beams) would
>shoot out from where the arms crossed?  If it is the same guy,
>didn't he have something like a one hour time limit to be the
>'alien', and his chest 'bulb' would light up to indicate how much
>time he had left?  Didn't he seriously go over this limit one time,
>and the aliens took him to their home planet to try and save his
>life?  Did the series ever have an ending?  ....

   Most of what he wrote is accurate, I think. He also had at least
one other type of weapon. He would stand as if to throw a frisbee,
and throw a disk of energy, or something?? These disks would go
around the enemy and pin them.  Also, had some kind of eye rays??
   The part about taking him to his home planet I don't remember,
and may or may not be accurate. As far as an end, I believe that
there was one, in which he (the human) revealed to his friends and
everyone else, that he was Ultraman?? Sound right?
   Anyway, my favorite, and most memorable scene of the whole series
was when the human who became Ultraman, was in a hurry to become him
to protect the city. He had a small, pen sized tube, with a button
on top that, when pressed, would change him to Ultraman. Now, as it
happens, he was eating in a restaurant, and came running out,
holding up the tube and pressing the button. Unfortunately, he
actually had a fork in his hand! Disregarding the fact that he
probably should have had chopsticks, it was quite a funny scene.

John Cummings

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 00:23:09 GMT
From: ames!lams!leadsv!gberg@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Gail Berg)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

rwn@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Bob Neumann) writes:
> blu@hall.cray.com (Brian Utterback) writes:
>> I always thought it was kind of strange that the movie studio
>> would sink into the ground during an attack.  If being a studio
>> was a cover so that it could
> I don't remember the actual Harlington-Straker movie studio
> sinking into the ground during an "attack".  I do recall that the
> SHADO organisation

If I remember correctly, one of the entrances to the underground
area was through Straker's elevator-office.

My most vivid memory of this show was the episode where everyone and
everything moving when the aliens passed by and was frozen.  Straker
and a girl were the only two humans unaffected.  They wander all
over the studio seeing chairs in midair and birds in midwing.

(The local PBS station promised they would be running the show
sometime this fall....Maybe starting in January?)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 17:04:30 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Obscure TV SF shows

blu@hall.UUCP (Brian Utterback) writes:
> ... I don't remember whether or not we see the aliens, but I do
>remember that they were water breathers, who used an ugly green
>liquid for an atmosphere.

They breathed a green oxygenated liquid. This protected the lungs
against high G forces.

>I always thought it was kind of strange that the movie studio would
>sink into the ground during an attack.

You are confusing UFO with Stingray.

The whole base in stingray could sink into the ground.

Ed Straker's office was a disguised lift down into the SHADO HQ.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 87  16:53:43 EST
From: nutto%UMASS.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Andy Steinberg)
Subject: more obscure SF

Does anybody remember these?

EMBRYO : A movie about a doctor who finds a way to accelerate a
   fetus's development so that it matures in a matter of hours.

INFRAMAN : A Japanese Think-tank is attacked by cheap-looking aliens
   and the head scientist turns a volunteer into a cyborg to fight
   the invaders.

NUKE 'EM HIGH : The Honor Society of a high school finds pot plants
   growing near a nuclear reactor that changes them into punkers and
   causes abortions to live.  Reminiscent of Toxic Avenger?

TERRORVISION : A father tampers with his satellite dish and brings a
   voracious monster to Earth that eats people and can reanimate
   their faces.

HERCULOIDS : A cartoon with Zok the flying laser dragon, Igoo the
   giant rock ape, Tuntdro the tremendous, Gloop and Gleep the
   formless fearless wonders.

SPACE GHOST : Comico is 5 months late in putting this cartoon out in
   comics.

TEEN FORCE : Comet Kid, Elektra, and Moleculad battle the evil Uglor
   on planet Uras and then return to their home inside a black hole.

SURF II : A nerd takes revenge on the surfers in his high school by
   creaing a soft drink that turns them into punk rockers.

Andy Steinberg
216 Johnson
UMass
Amherst, MA. 01003
413-546-3227
BITNet: nutto@UMass
ARPA: nutto%UMass.BITNet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
nutto%UMass.BITNet@mitvma.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 18:02:06 GMT
From: mtgzz!leeper@RUTGERS.EDU (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: sf-tv: COM. CODY, FLASH GORDON

Jerry Freedman was asking who besides him remembered Commander [sic]
Cody and the TV Flash Gordon.  I admit being guilty of being one
person who does.

In fact, my introduction to science fiction was at age 4 or 5 with
an hour on Saturday mornings.  They would run COMMANDO CODY, SKY
MARSHALL OF THE UNIVERSE followed by CAPTAIN MIDNIGHT.

COMMANDO CODY, SKY MARSHALL OF THE UNIVERSE
   This was the apparently made-for-tv, but the character was taken
   from Republic serials.  Particularly from RADAR MEN FROM THE MOON
   and its shortened form RETIK THE MOON MENAGE.  RADAR MEN is out
   on cassette if you are nostalgic for the props.  The props were
   memorable.  The spaceships took off horizontally like latterday
   versions of Flash Gordon's ship in the serials.  Cody with his
   rocket pack used to fly back and forth between the ships and too
   my four-year-old mind that looked pretty cool.  I used to dream
   of getting myself a rocket pack like that.  The rocket suit was
   used in a number of serials, usually worn by Cody (Tristam
   Coffin), though in KING OF THE ROCKET MEN it was worn by someone
   named King.

CAPTAIN MIDNIGHT
   This character was based on the radio hero of the same name, but
   was greatly modified for TV with much more emphasis on him as a
   scientist.  He had a futuristic laboratory "high above above a
   large city."  He headed a group called the Secret Squadron though
   usually did everything with just his sidekick.  To join the
   Secret Squadon you had to believe in the code: "Justice through
   strength and courage" and you either had to prove yourself to be
   a hero for freedom or you had to send in the seal from a jar of
   Ovaltine.  There were also ads in which certain well-known
   atheletes of the day were said to be members.  He had two
   sidekicks, Ichobod "Icky" Mudd, played by Sid Melton, and a
   scientist called Tut, played by somebody whose name was something
   like Owen Soulin (who latter did the voice of the scientific
   teaching machine in FANTASTIC PLANET.  He flew a jet called the
   Silver Dart.

   Most memerable episodes were "The Electified Man" about a man who
   could electrocute people with his touch and one about a missile
   that rolled along the ground.  For syndication the series lost
   the rights to call itself Captain Midnight, so the character was
   changed to Jet Jackson, dubbing that name over the soundtrack.

FLASH GORDON
   This was on a year or so later.  It was a series made in West
   Germany and starred Steve Holland.  I seem to remember that the
   space ship took off vertically, stood on its fins, and was fairly
   streamlined.  In one episode he fights a sort of an intelligent
   shaggy beast who turns out to be a dream.  In another he goes to
   a planet run by women.  He is imprisoned and forced to listen to
   a neverending tape that keeps repeating "Men are weak and women
   are strong."  This was years before anyone ever heard of
   Affirmative Action.  When Gordon went to earth, lots of people
   were driving Volkswagon bugs.  Flash's had a sun roof, the first
   I had ever seen and I thought it was very futuristic.

If you can remember series that far back, Jerry, do you remember
WORLD OF GIANTS?  I know of only one other person who remembers the
series.  It would have been from about 1961.  It was a spinoff of
the film INCREDIBLE SHRINKING MAN, using many of the same props.
The idea was that a spy behind the iron curtain (played by Marshall
Thompson) was caught in an explosion of experimental rocket fuel.
He shrinks to four or five inches tall.  Arthur Franz carries him
around in a brief case equiped with a small chair.

Mark Leeper
ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper

------------------------------

Date: 21 DEC 87 10:22-N
From: U00254%hasara5.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Old SF shows

A ha! Old SF shows. I bet not many of you Americans know/remember
this one :

Die phantastische Abentuer des Raumschiffs Orion

with (among others) Dietmar Scho"nherr as Commander McLean

The series was recently re-run by the Third German Channel WDF.

It was a really excellent SF show. Some (European) critics rate this
SF show as the best ever, together with ( of course) Star Trek.

Having seen this show (at least) 3 times, I remember quite a lot
about it. But if I'm the only one remembering this show......  Any
one care to chat....  Any NON-European remembering this show....

Jacqueline
The Netherlands
U00254 @ HASARA5

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 21-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #554
Date: 21 Dec 87 1102-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #554
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Dec 87 1102-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #554
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 21 Dec 1987     Volume 12 : Issue 554

Today's Topics:

             Books - Asimov & Brin (2 msgs) & Carter &
                     Clarke & Ellison (4 msgs) &
                     Gibson (4 msgs) & Moorcock (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 19:59:29 GMT
From: mmintl!franka@RUTGERS.EDU (Frank Adams)
Subject: Re: Asimovian non-aliens (Re: Review: ROBOT CITY I: ODYSSEY)

rwl@uvacs.CS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Ray Lubinsky) writes:
>As I recall, Asimov intended to include non-humans in the
>Foundation series (serialized in Astounding Stories, was it?) but
>editor John Campbell nixed the idea.  Campbell himself didn't like
>stories with aliens, preferring scenarios which were more strictly
>extrapolative than speculative.

The following is from my memory of something Asimov wrote on the
subject; I'm afraid I don't remember where.

Campbell did not dislike stories with aliens.  He did insist that
the humans always come off best in such stories.  Asimov was
unwilling to follow this constraint, so instead wrote them out of
his stories.  I don't think he ever precisely *intended* to include
aliens in the Foundation series, but he probably would have, had he
not hoped to sell the stories to Campbell.

(Which he did do.  The Foundation series was indeed published in
Astounding Stories, although as short stories (well, novellas), not
a serialization per se.  The stories were later collected to make
the Trilogy.)

Frank Adams
Ashton-Tate
52 Oakland Ave North
E. Hartford, CT 06108
ihnp4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 87 15:54:28 EST
From: Garrett Fitzgerald (Sarek) <ST801179%brownvm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Brin

>What, just because his dolphins seem like humans in fish suits, and
>his simps seem like humans in hairy suits, and his Tybrimi seem
>like humans in alien suits, and etc, etc?  (Actually, they don't
>seem all too *narrow*, they just seem all too *human*.  Or so it
>seems to me.)

I don't think the dolphins seem like humans, but even if they do,
remember that humans have been genetically engineering the fins and
forcing them to think in human languages.  Even so, they seem to
have kept most of what it means to be a dolphin.  However, in THE
UPLIFT WAR, he definitely humanifies the chims and Tymbrimi too
much.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 13:57:41 GMT
From: mtuxo!andyc@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Brin

ST801179@brownvm.BITNET (Garrett Fitzgerald) writes:
>>What, just because his dolphins seem like humans in fish suits,
>>and his simps seem like humans in hairy suits, and his Tybrimi
>>seem like humans in alien suits, and etc, etc?  (Actually, they
>>don't seem all too *narrow*, they just seem all too *human*.  Or
>>so it seems to me.)
>
> I don't think the dolphins seem like humans, but even if they do,
> remember that humans have been genetically engineering the fins
> and forcing them to think in human languages.  Even so, they seem
> to have kept most of what it means to be a dolphin.  However, in
> THE UPLIFT WAR, he definitely humanifies the chims and Tymbrimi
> too much.

If you both will recall, both fins and chimps retain social customs
that are totally un-humanlike (chimp grooming, etc.)  And remember
they are client races and therefore would try and emulate their
UPLIFTERS who are human after all, therefore they will seem
humanlike at times, but I believe Brin does a good job of relating
the fact that they ARE NOT humans.

Is anyone else out there curious about the 50,000 ships we are told
about at the beginning of the first book (I forget the name)??  I
bought and read UPLIFT WAR because I thought he might actually
resolve that little bit of business, but Brin choose not to!

I think they are the Progeniters (sp?) and that they are also the
race that UPLIFTED humans!  What do you all think?

Is Brin going to write another UPLIFT book and tell us, who these
aliens are?  Let me know!!

Andy C @ AT&T
mtuxo!andyc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 87 09:41:56 EST
From: ted@braggvax.arpa
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V12 #545

>The second book is called _Found_Wanting_.  This is by Lyn Carter,
>I think.  This I consider brain-popcorn: good mental munchies, but
>almost no nutrition.  The basic plot is that the main character
>wakes up in the middle of a walkway in a futuristic city.  He knows
>not his name, why is is there, what he is to do, or anything about
>surviving in the city.  The book details his adventures as he casts
>about the city seeking his destiny.  The main reason to read this
>book is to see the city (a great source of ideas for a D&D game).
>Definitely a good book to read when you don't want to think, like
>after a long day at work.  Don't get me wrong; I don't think the
>intent of the author was to make a "great" book, merely an
>entertaining one.  In this it succeeds.

Hi,

Actually it's LIN Carter.  As an author, he's been responsible for
quite a lot of wholly standard ERB swords and planets adventures.
Fun, but nothing to really seek out (though you do have to admire
his nerve at putting _himself_ on Gannymede once).  Every now and
then he turns out something interesting and different (say the Van
Vogtish _Time War_, or the whimsical Ganelon Silvermane books (did
this series ever finish?)).

Anyway, _Found Wanting_ is his latest off center book.  The capsule
review from Darren is misleading in one important aspect (I won't
say what).  Reading the book, I had a nagging feeling that something
was not quite right, but couldn't say just what it was (sort of like
Van Vogt's 'unreality condition').  _Found Wanting_ is not a great
book, but I was entertained, and surprised that Carter was a good
enough writer to pull it off without tripping himself up in the
first few pages.  (I didn't catch on till at least 3/4 the way
through the book, and wasn't absolutely sure till near the end.)

Ted Nolan
ted@braggvax.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 01:34:43 GMT
From: ism780c!tim@RUTGERS.EDU (Tim Smith)
Subject: Re: 2001, 2010

markc@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Mark Cook) writes:
>     You're right, there is one more book due out, but it's
> supposed to be titled _20,001:_The_Final_Odyssey_ (I just read the
> article this morning).  However, the article I read didn't say
> anything about when the book would be released, only that Clarke
> was working on it.

The article I read ( book review in the Los Angeles Times ) said
that Clarke will not finish 20,001 until Galileo reaches Jupiter.
He wants to include some information about Jupiter that will not be
known until then, and doesn't want to guess.

Tim Smith
tim@ism780c.isc.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 12:39:40 GMT
From: boyajian@akov76.dec.com (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
Subject: Harlan Ellison Discovery Series

> From: sphinx!r032
> Question 2: I picked up _The Light at the End of the Universe_, by
> Terry Carr at a local used bookstore. On the cover it says "The
> Harlan Ellison Discovery Series: #3". The book was published in
> 1976 by Pyramid.  Does anyone know what the other books in the
> Harlan Ellison Discovery series were?

The first one was STORMTRACK, by James Sutherland, who pretty much
hasn't been seen since. He did no other novels, to my knowledge
anyway, though he published about a dozen short stories during the
early 70's.

The second one was AUTUMN ANGELS, by Arthur Byron Cover. Cover has
done a few other books, the brilliantly weird THE PLATYPUS OF DOOM
AND OTHER NIHILISTS and the science fictional Sherlock Holmes novel
AN EAST WIND COMING among them. He also did the novelization of the
FLASH GORDON movie, but everyone has to eat once in a while, yes?

There was also a fourth in the series: INVOLUTION OCEAN, the first
novel by Bruce Sterling, later author of THE ARTIFICIAL KID and
SCHISMATRIX, editor of MIRRORSHADES, and principle proselytizer of
cyberpunk.

--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA)

UUCP:   ...!{decwrl|decuac}!akov68.dec.com!boyajian
ARPA:   boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 87 11:25:35 CST
From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA>
Subject: Ellison pseudonym

Harlan Ellison's use of the "Cordwainer Bird" pseudonym on work
which he disavows after editors or producers have forced changes on
it with which he disagrees is well known in SF circles, and has been
for years.  However, what I have never read, in any discussion of
the issue by Ellison himself or by other critics/commentators, is
just WHY that particular pseudonym was chosen. Does anyone on the
list know the detail behind it? Does Ellison hate the late
Cordwainer Smith? After all, if he puts this name on work he feels
has been corrupted, to use such a unique first name from another
well-known SF figure cannot be considered to be complimentary to the
memory of Mr. Smith. To use "Cordwainer" at all HAS to be a
reference to him, so why is Ellison making this reference in this
slighting manner?

If Harlan just wanted his own name disassociated from the work in
question, he could have used "John Doe" or something equally
neutral.  So there has to be something behind the choice of
pseudonym.

Regards,

Will Martin
wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 06:32:30 GMT
From: killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Questions (again)

Well, since we're on Ellison: I have the collection _I Have No
Mouth, and I Must Scream_, and in the introduction he mentions
"fourty-five days getting the inside of my skull scoured by napalm".
What, exactly, is he talking about?

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 23:35:01 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ellison pseudonym

>Harlan Ellison's use of the "Cordwainer Bird" pseudonym on work
>which he disavows after editors or producers have forced changes on
>it with which he disagrees is well known in SF circles, and has
>been for years.  However, what I have never read, in any discussion
>of the issue by Ellison himself or by other critics/commentators,
>is just WHY that particular pseudonym was chosen. Does anyone on
>the list know the detail behind it? Does Ellison hate the late
>Cordwainer Smith?
>
>If Harlan just wanted his own name disassociated from the work in
>question, he could have used "John Doe" or something equally
>neutral.  So there has to be something behind the choice of
>pseudonym.

The way I've heard is, Cordwainer is both an homage to Smith and a
name that sticks out like a sore thumb -- something that will look
like a pseudonym.  The last name is Harlan's comment on what they've
done to his work -- giving it the Bird, so to speak. so, in typical
Harlan fashion, he's "giving the Bird" to the work in a way that
folks who have any background in the industry will know what he
thinks -- he could have used "john doe' but then nobody would have
noticed his displeasure -- Harlan's not one to be quiet when he's
unhappy.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 13 Dec 87 23:51:09 GMT
From: aaz@i.cc.purdue.edu (Pete-Bob)
Subject: Mona Lisa Overdrive

Has anyone heard about this book yet?  It's supposed to be the third
in the "series" of books by William Gibson containing Neuromancer
and Count Zero.  Is it out yet?  If so, how is it?

Thanks.

Pete-Bob.
i.cc.purdue.edu!aaz

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 16:42:45 GMT
From: allen@sbcs ( Allen Leung)
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk (12:534)

    I think I enjoy Neuromancer and Gibson's world mainly for the
helplessness of the characters.  It is nice to have protagonists
that are actually not trying to save the world( universe/ the human
species ).  Gibson's characters are people who live and do the
things they do for their own selfishly human motives, not for some
pretentiously "noble" reasons.  Personally I'm just sick and tired
of all the stories about the world in peril and how a few men and
women save the world thru their courage and determination.  I just
don't think that is at all possible, and I hate to see it in any
fiction, not just SF.

Just a thought,
Allen Leung
SUNY at Stony Brook

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 17:37:00 GMT
From: hsu@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Why Cyberpunk is popular -- the com

brad@looking.UUCP writes:
>People talk a lot about the dystopian "punk" part of cyberpunk, but
>I suspect it's the "cyber" part that keeps them coming.

Agreed. Dystopian, technophobic science fiction has existed since
the '60s, in the works of J.G. Ballard, Barry Malzberg and several
others.  Cyberpunk's main ideological contribution seems to be that
it has romanticized the tech-types that are its protagonists and
audience and put them in a context that makes them the (traditional
romantic ideal of) the rebellious anti-hero.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 23:24:17 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: NEUROMANCER Awakening

mincy@godot.think.com.UUCP (Jeffrey Mincy) writes:
>soren@reed.UUCP (Slippery When Wet) writes:
>>I've never understood why people think that Gibson's world is
>>depressing.  Seems like a pretty reasonable place to me.
>
>I also have found Neuromancer one of the most depressing worlds.

Our world is equally depressing when written from the correct (or
incorrect) viewpoint.  I'm sure that in Gibson's world (if we
imagine it as complete for a moment) one could write touching
stories about dogs following their masters across several states or
orphans finding their real parents or something.  It's not Gibson's
world that depressing, I think, it's just how he looks at it.

Vernon Lee
Rice University
scorpion@rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 87  19:36 EST
From: DEGSUSM%yalevm.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Moorcock / Dancers at the End of Time

Derek Keeping asked if there was a fourth book in the Dancers at the
End of Time series.  There was a book called _Elric at the End of
Time_ which came out a few years ago.  I believe it is a collection
of short stories or novellas though - and not necessarily part of
the series.  I am not sure any of the stories were even set in the
DatEoT universe.

susan de guardiola
DEGSUSM@YALEVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 00:34:16 GMT
From: microsoft!leefi@RUTGERS.EDU (Lee Fisher)
Subject: Re: Moorcock / Dancers at the End of Time

A few people were asking about Michael Moorcock's Dancers at the End
of Time series, so I thought I'd put in my $0.02.

The main character of `The Dancer's at the End of Time' series was
Jherek Carnelian, whose name is similar to Jeremiah Cornelius, much
like all of Moorcock's characters have some sort of similarity. I
believe that Carnelian is supposed to be one of the Champion
Eternals.

I believe that it was originally written as a series, then Moorcock
wrote two extra books, whose names I don't have handy. I believe one
was `Legends from the End of Time', and the other was `Return of the
FireClown'. The FireClown was a the main character of another book
or story of Moorcocks.  Also, there is a story about Moorcock's
character Elric of Melnibone called `Elric at the End of Time' which
I enjoyed. In this book, there is only one story relating to the End
of Time, the others are related to Elric or older works of Mr.
Moorcock, like his juvenile Sojan character.

Hope this helps,

Lee Fisher
Microsoft Corp.
Redmond, WA.
uucp: ...!uw-beaver!microsof!leefi (leefi@microsof.uucp)
internet: leefi@microsof.beaver.washington.edu
arpa: leefi%microsof@uw-beaver.arpa

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #555
Date: 22 Dec 87 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #555
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 87 0849-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #555
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 555

Today's Topics:

                Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Clarke &
                        Lessing (7 msgs) & Pohl (4 msgs) &
                        Humorous SF (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 23:38:28 GMT
From: dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Depressing SF

Don Coolidge writes about how depressing _Neuromancer_ is and
(Slippery When Wet) points out that _Stand on Zanzibar_ by John
Brunner is more depressing.

All true, but I felt that Brunner's _The Sheep Look Up_ was even
more depressing than either one.  After all, the destruction of the
entire biosphere certainly seemed more depressing than some minor
"political" disintegration.

Don't read it if you want to have a nice day :-)

Dan Tilque
dant@tekla.tek.com
dant@tekla.UUCP

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 21:52:34 GMT
From: bcsaic!randy@RUTGERS.EDU (Randy Groves)
Subject: Re: brunner

MANAGER@smith.BITNET (Mary Malmros) writes:
>   _The Shockwave Rider_
>   _The Stone That Never Came Down_
>   _Stand on Zanzibar_
>   ...and one whose name I can't remember, but the primary villain
>seemed to be a bunch of people called Gottschalks.

I believe this is _Jagged Orbit_.

Randy Groves
Boeing Advanced Technology Center
Boeing Computer Services
PO Box 24346 M/S 7L-68
Seattle, WA   98124
(206)865-3424
UUCP:   ..!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy
CSNET:  randy@boeing.com

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 04:13:40 GMT
From: starfire!merlyn@RUTGERS.EDU (Brian Westley)
Subject: Re: Tumbling spacecraft, 2001-2010-2061-....

The spinning spaceship didn't bother me; Clarke explained it
reasonably.  However, the movie version SUCKED EGGS.  They board the
ship, and somehow, they simply STOP the rotation!  Just pressed the
brake, I guess.  In the book Clarke describes spinning up the
centrifuge to take up most of the rotational momentum and trimming
the rest with jets.

Gak, Hyams (the director) really screwed it up.  They even left out
the Chinese, which had the background to the WHOLE POINT of the
book!

Merlyn LeRoy

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 22:19:43 GMT
From: ism780c!jimh@RUTGERS.EDU (Jim Hori)
Subject: Houston SF Opera

I expected somebody to respond by now to the question about a SF
opera being co-written by Philip Glass and somebody named Lessing,
so I didn't save the questioner's original posting.

The Lessing is probably Doris who has written several futurist/SF
novels after beginning her writing career with (what does one call
it, regular, or conventional, or just non-SF?) fiction and essays.
She is a Kenyan/South African writer who should be known to the
English speaking world, but obviously isn't.

Her SF novels are serialized, and from what I recall from scanning
them in bookstores, reminiscent of Marge Piercy's enjoyable, though
somewhat stiff, feminist SF.

The series is called "Canopus and Argos: Archives", and consists of
some 5 or 6 books so far.

Any other news on this opera?

jimh@ism780c.UUCP
awopbopaloobop
alopbamboom

------------------------------

Date: 12 Dec 87 00:10:06 GMT
From: mjm@hpqtdla.hp.com (Murdo McKissock)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Opera by Glass and Lessing

> I saw an article in the Houston Chronicle a couple of days ago
> about a new opera from Philip (Phillip?) Glass and a Ms. Lessing.
> I believe the title was something about "The construction of an
> ambassador" or something similar, but I do remember that it will
> play July 5-9 next year at the Houston Grand Opera, and that the
> author called it a Science Fiction opera.  Anyone have real
> information about this?

Sounds like it's based on Doris Lessing's novel "The Making of the
Representative for Planet 8", part of her series "Canopus in Argos:
Archives".

Others in the series:

 1. Shikasta
 2. The Marriages Between Zones Three, Four and Five.
 3. ?

[Look for them also in the non-sf stacks.  Lessing is a mainstream
author who also writes sf.  This is SF in a plain wrapper.]

I liked number 2, but 1 and 3 were more like hard work.  I ended up
skimming them for the sake of the story line.  Perhaps I'll
persevere with "The Making of the Representative ...".  If Glass can
make an opera out of it there must at least be a strong plot.
Surely?

Murdo McKissock

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 10:31:40 GMT
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Houston SF Opera

jimh@ism780c.UUCP (Jim Hori) writes:
>The Lessing is probably Doris who has written several futurist/SF
>novels ...
>
>Her SF novels are serialized, and from what I recall from scanning
>them in bookstores, reminiscent of Marge Piercy's enjoyable, though
>somewhat stiff, feminist SF.
>
>The series is called "Canopus and Argos: Archives",

Should be Canopus IN Argos: Archives

The five books are quite different in character. The second one
("The marriages between zones 3, 4 and 5") could possibly be called
"feminist SF" - it is very different from the other four in most
ways.  The third ("The Sirian Experiments") is at times rather
funny, and the fifth ("The sentimental agents in the Volyen empire")
is among the funniest books I've read.

On the other hand, number 4 ("The making of the representative of
planet 8") was rather depressing. While reading it I thought that
"it can't get any worse than this". It could, of course. (I don't
refer to the quality of the book, but to the events in the story).

I should mention the title of the first one also: "Shikasta" This is
the most "important" of the five, in some sense. It is also the one
that could perhaps be called "stiff". All the books are well worth
reading.

Lars-Henrik Eriksson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science
Box 1263
S-164 28  KISTA
Internet: lhe@sics.se

------------------------------

Date: 11 Dec 87 19:10:14 GMT
From: jack@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Subject: Re: Houston SF Opera

jimh@ism780c.UUCP (Jim Hori) writes:
>I expected somebody to respond by now to the question about a SF
>opera being co-written by Philip Glass and somebody named Lessing,
>
>Any other news on this opera?

It's "the Making Of The Representative From Planet 8", if I remember
right.  This is from the announcements to a Radio 3 broadcast of
Glass's new orchestral piece "The Light" - a tone poem about the
Michelson-Morley experiments.

Incidentally, it's not the first SF opera. I heard a broadcast in
New Zealand of a Swedish opera called "Aniara", based on an epic
poem about a colonizer spaceship on its way to oblivion. I can
remember neither the poet's nor the composer's name.

I've only read the first of Lessing's series and didn't like it
much. I felt I was being preached at (Lessing is a Sufi - I don't
know whether her having been born in Iran has anything to with that
- and it shows in her more recent writing). OK, the content of the
sermon may not have been as obnoxious as Heinlein, Tolkien or
Pournelle, but it was still gratuitous in literary terms.

Jack Campin
Computing Science Department
University of Glasgow,
17 Lilybank Gardens
Glasgow G12 8QQ
Scotland
041 339 8855 x 6045
ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk
JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs
USENET: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 11:10:38 GMT
From: kers@otter.hp.com (Christopher Dollin)
Subject: Re: New Science Fiction Opera by Glass and Lessing

Ah, "The Making of the Rep ..."

My friend and ex-collegue Jim Rice (are you out there,. Jimbo?) said
of TMOTRFP8 "There's this planet where there's so little water that
a small lake is an Unusual Attraction ... then thay have an Ice Age
and the whole planet gets covered in snow and ice ... hmm ..."

No, it hasn't got a plot either.

Regards,
Kers

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 15:37:14 GMT
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Houston SF Opera

jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>Incidentally, it's not the first SF opera. I heard a broadcast in
>New Zealand of a Swedish opera called "Aniara", based on an epic
>poem about a colonizer spaceship on its way to oblivion. I can
>remember neither the poet's nor the composer's name.

The composer was Karl-Birger Blomdahl and the poet Harry Martinson
(a Nobel prize laureate).

Lars-Henrik Eriksson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science
Box 1263
S-164 28  KISTA
Internet: lhe@sics.se

------------------------------

Date: 20 Dec 87 10:13:06 GMT
From: gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren)
Subject: Re: Houston SF Opera

jzitt@dasys1.UUCP (Joe Zitt) writes:
>It's [Philip] Glass's first attempt at writing an opera in English

Hardly.  His previous operas include "Einstein at the Beach" and
"Satyagraha" (sp?).  "Songs from Liquid Skies" is his most
commercial album to date, but Glass has been around for a long time.

Michael J. Farren
{ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}!unisoft!gethen!farren
gethen!farren@lll-winken.arpa

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 18:30:57 GMT
From: mtuxo!andyc@RUTGERS.EDU (XMRH3-A.CASTINEIRAS)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

anand@CM1.NPAC.SYR.EDU (Rangachari Anand) writes:
>Is anybody else out there as big a fan of the Heechee series by
>Fredrick Pohl as I am.

Yes, I liked these books too!  I found Gateway anti-climactic and
thought it didn't stand alone well, but then I found Beyond the Blue
Event Horizon and read it too!  At last the story was complete...or
is it?

>I haven't yet read the new book - I saw an ad in Analog. Any
>comments?

I think it's called "Annals of the Heechee" and I've seen it
advertised by the science fiction book club, I don't know how long
it's been out!  Does anyone know if it is in paperback yet?

Andy Castineiras
AT&T Comm./Info. Systems
mtuxo!andyc
Room 1D-324
307 Middletown-Lincroft Road
Lincroft, NJ 07738
(201) 576-6256

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 15:33:50 GMT
From: scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>I loved the Heechee books.  I read the newest (Heechee Rendezvous)
>a few months back.  I enjoyed it very much, although not as much as
>Gateway.  I'm sure you'll like it.

I really liked Gateway, but I thought the second and third books
degenerated into Heinlin-like "we're rich, powerful, and oh so
pleased with ourselves" novels.  The inner torment that the main
character went through in Gateway was the most compelling part about
the novel, and Pohl unfortunately deleted that very part in the
sequels.

Vernon Lee
Rice University
scorpion@rice.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 17:23:53 GMT
From: bob@its63b.edinburgh.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

nancym@pyrtech.UUCP (Nancy McClelland) writes:
>I loved the Heechee books.  I read the newest (Heechee Rendezvous)
>a few months back.  I enjoyed it very much, although not as much as
>Gateway.

The latest HeChee book is "Annuls of the Hechee".

Robinette Broadhead and other stored personalities of the Assassin
watch are alerted by an alarm that something has happened near the
black hole containing the assassins.

The book appeared in the shops here about a month ago in hardback.
The above blurb is paraphrased from the cover.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 23:12:05 GMT
From: tainter@ihlpg.att.com (Tainter)
Subject: Re: HeeChee

iverson@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Iverson) writes:
>>   His characters are not two dimensional and the descriptions of
>>the technology are good overall ...
> Well, this is the point at which we differ.  I like Pohl's writing
> a lot, but whenever he tries to describe something about computers
> his ideas are laughable at best.
>
> This is especially true of the A.I. that thinks it's Robinette
> Broadhead in the last novel.  Pohl states that this A.I. has
> responses perhaps 100 to 1000 times faster than mortals, and that
> furthermore, the machinery supports thousands of these AI's.  This
> is impossible by many orders of magnitude, as any simple back of
> the envelope calculation would show: assume max. 1ns switching
> rate per element (10ns is possible today) for the computer, people
[Remainder of description deleted as it all derives from the above
assumption]

If we can do 10ns now 1ns is probably 10 years away.  By that time
in our future I expect we will need new terms to describe the time
intervals involved.

Sorry, Tim.  I'm glad you aren't making project decisions for my
company.  I would hate to give up fiber optic cable for phone
communication because sound can't be sent over a wire let alone a
little strand of plastic.

j.a.tainter

------------------------------

Date: 5 Dec 87 23:40:41 GMT
From: qiclab!leonard@RUTGERS.EDU (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Humorous SF

ZZASSGL@cms.umrcc.ac.UK ("ZZASSGL") writes:
>"The Dragon and the George" by (arrrgghhh I've forgotten) G.
>Dickson?

Yes, it is by Gordon Dickson. I have been told that he also had a
story called "St. Dragon and the George" in a (late 50s?) F&SF. The
plot is supposed to be quite different...

I'm AMAZED that no one has mentioned the following "trilogy":

"The Butterfly Kid" by Chester Anderson
"The Unicorn Girl"  by Michael Kurland
"The Probability Pad" by T. A. Waters

The first is arguably the best but the others aren't bad...

The multiple authors are explained simply enough. Anderson wrote
himself and Michael Kurland into the first book (as major characters
no less!). So in retaliation Kurland wrote the second book with
himself Anderson and Waters as characters. And then Waters decided
to write a book.

SPOILER WARNING!

The first book has a wonderful concept. "Reality pills". They are a
hallucinogen with a difference. The hallicinations are *real*.

One character hallucinates a Tyrannosaurus Rex which wanders down
the street stepping on cars and smashing windows. When he comes
down, the T. Rex is gone but the damage is still there!!!!

Some aliens are plasnning to conquer the world by distributing these
pills to a large segment of the populace (or by dumping them in the
water supply, it's been awhile since I read it). This will result in
chaos and apparent breakdown of reality. Then they will appear and
offer to "help" us out of this mess.

Unfortunately, they picked Greenwich Village for the first large
scale test.....

Leonard Erickson
..!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
...!tektronix!reed!qiclab!leonard

------------------------------

Date: 8 Dec 87 20:37:00 GMT
From: inmet!justin@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Funny SF

A good, funny book that I don't remember anyone citing as yet:

   "The High Crusade" by Poul Anderson (I think; it's been a while)

This book takes place sometime around the 13th Century. A bunch of
extremely technological aliens invades a small British village, only
to discover that the humans are sneaky, devious, and capable of
fighting hand-to-hand, a lost art in most of the galaxy. More than
that I can't say (actually, I just *did* say, then erased it when I
realized that it was serious spoilers). Light reading, highly
recommended. (And please, don't flame me if I got a few details
wrong. It's been *quite* a while).

Mark Waks
Intermetrics, Inc.
(617) 661-1840, x4704
...{ihnp4, mirror, ima}!inmet!justin
justin@inmet.inmet.com

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 87 13:33:12 GMT
From: netxcom!rkolker@RUTGERS.EDU (rich kolker)
Subject: Re: SF that makes you go haha

dhawk@lamc.UUCP (David Hawkins) writes:
>From: <BREEBAAR%HLERUL5.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu>
>>So let me know what novels or what author gets *you* rolling on
>>the floor.  I am eagerly awaiting your suggestions, thanx in
>>advance
>
>Knight Life by Peter David

If you like this one, try any of Peter's later (after #1) Photon
Novels.  Ignore the plot (well almost ignore it) and enjoy the
inside jokes.  SF fans, comic writers, Monty Python sketches,
etc...dot the whole thing.  They're written under the name David
Peters.

But I'm biased...Peter's a friend (and I'm a character in the books).

Rich Kolker
8519 White Pine Dr.
Manassas Park, VA 22111
(703)361-1290
..uunet!netxcom!rkolker

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #556
Date: 22 Dec 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #556
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 87 0925-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #556
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 556

Today's Topics:

            Books - Baldwin (2 msgs) & Delaney & Dick &
                    LeGuin (4 msgs) & Varley

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 14:24:00 GMT
From: eds1!jdm1@RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D. McCown)
Subject: Re: New Space Opera

[ref to earlier articles on Bill Baldwin/EE Smith]

Baldwin does seem to have a flair for space opera, and I am glad to
hear that he published something following _Helmsman_ (_Convoy_).

Reading _Helmsman_ was exciting, the characters were good and the
plot was far ranging in the best tradition of space opera.  It was
different from much of the older space opera in that it did not
build so much on our own society+ science.  (He is also to be
credited with an interesting unit of length called the "iral" which
the reader is left to figure out-- a couple hundred of them is the
length of a "destroyer" and the "bore" of energy weapons is measured
in mmi [milli-micro-irals or some such] my guess is somewhere around
a metre :-)

Baldwin's universe was "older" than the Trek milieu, it had more of
the 'old and rusty' feeling found in _Star Wars_, which gave it more
credibility than most fiction (where all is new and shiny).  There
was even an aspect of "Retief" style diplomacy and military
situations. . . highly recommended.

I mailed my copy of _Helmsman_ to a friend and USnail lost it.  Oh
well.

J.D. McCown
(717) 783-3256
psuvax1!eds1!jdm1

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 05:04:37 GMT
From: sdeggo!dave@RUTGERS.EDU (David L. Smith)
Subject: Re: SF-Lovers in Locus blurb (Galactic Convoy)

>>This same ad is in F&SF for January, 1988 on p. 25. When I saw
>>this, I laughed my ass off!! That book must be DESPARATE for
>>testimonials -- not only could they not get any, but the only
>>stuff they could get for the book before it (_The Helmsman_) was
>>from SF-lovers!! They try to make it sound like SF-Lovers Digest
>>is some kind of Important Publication, when really it is a bunch
>>of mindless idiots banging away at their keyboards! :-) That
>>little bit of testimonial guarantees that I will never even get
>>near the book, much less *buy* it.

Well, I bought the book because I liked the cover :), and I hadn't
even read the little "Sf-lovers recommendation" on the back.
However, I did like the book ("Galactic Convoy" by Bill Baldwin) and
I must say that it is nowhere near as bad as the cover blurbs make
it seem.

4 breasts, disruptor fu, SDI fu, bear-people - Joe Dave says check
it out!

David L. Smith
{sdcsvax!man,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave
man!sdeggo!dave@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 14:17:46 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Delany's _Neveryona_

Has anyone else read "Neveryona?"  I'm a little ways into it
(approx. 100 pages) and it's just not moving at all.  I loved "Nova"
and all of the stories in the collection of his Nebula award-winning
works, but so far "Neveryona" is, well, boring.  The writing is
fine, the story's ok, but for heaven's sake, everyone talks and
talks and talks, and over-explains everything.  There was one scene
where the protagonist is walking through a marketplace with a
character acting as guide, and he was describing, in excruciating
detail, what they were seeing, what it meant, what its economic
implications were, et cetera.  I'm willing to believe he might have
really talked that way to our protagonist, since she's a young and
naive girl on her first visit to the market, but it sure didn't
advance the plot much.

Does anyone know what Delany was trying to do with "Neveryona?"  I
keep thinking he must have had a message, but it's just not getting
through.  Hints appreciated.  The book is due back at the library
soon, and if it doesn't start grabbing me, I'm not going to renew
it.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 22:22:42 GMT
From: winston@jaguar..arpa (Joe Winston)
Subject: Dicked ending of _The Man in the High Castle_

Calling all perceptive Philip K. Dick fans:

   So, alright, I just read _The Man in the High Castle_, touted as
Dick's best work, and found it quite enjoyable except for the
fabulously unsatisfying ending.  I am familiar enough with Philip K.
Dick novels to expect a sudden, weird, incompletely-explained,
somewhat obscure ending, generally hinging on the majority of the
novel having been the product of a drug hallucination.  Thus, while
the this-really-isn't-reality-you've-been-reading-about ending of
_The High Castle_ was expected, the way that the main character's
reacted to it -- or didn't react, in this case -- makes me feel that
either I must have missed something, or this book is even more
obscure than the usual Philip K. Dick fare.  Fire away.

Joe Winston
winston-joe@yale.edu

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 87 14:57:49 GMT
From: sunybcs!ugcherk@RUTGERS.EDU (Kevin Cherkauer)
Subject: LeGuin

hunt@cg-atla.UUCP (Walter Hunt X7031) writes:
>ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>>I have never read or met Wolfe. I also have never met LeGuin, and
>>maybe she is a genius in person, but I must say that from those of
>>her books I have read she is definitely an UNgenius writer.
>
>Ok, "Kev", which ones did you read?  Did you read "Earthsea", or
>"The Dispossessed", or "The Lathe of Heaven", or "The Left Hand of
>Darkness"?
>
>I'm hardly fit to judge genius, not being one myself, but I hold a
>high opinion of Ms. LeGuin's writing, and consider the four above
>examples to be among the best in the genre.  If you dispute this
>assertion, I would be very interested in your reasoning. (It is,
>after all, only my opinion).

Okay "Walter." I have read the _Earthsea_ trilogy and _The
Dispossessed_.  The former was cute and all, but seemed a bit
juvenile.  The latter I could not stand. It was sooooooo contrived.
Basic premise that has been repeated a million times in one way or
another. Plus it just made things *much* worse by trying to make
itself more "science fictioney" than it really was by having the
protagonist just happen to be a physicist (where have we seen the
physicist-fighting-for-human-rights plot device before?  Oh...I
don't know. I don't think any other SF author has ever done this one
before :-(.

PLUS, this physicist took great pains to explain carefully to the
reader every blessed detail of his grand unifying theory, EVEN
THOUGH THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REST OF THE BOOK AND
OBVIOUSLY IS TOTALLY MEANINGLESS. I mean, we KNOW LeGuin hasn't come
up with the grand unified theory that physicists have been hunting
for for ages (sitting there smokin' her pipe), so why the hell does
she make a fool of herself and give us all the details of Shevek's?
I can understand saying, "Shevek was a great physicist and came up
with a grand unifying theory," and then having others try to
suppress it or take credit for it, but there is NO justification for
telling us all of the boooooooring and false details.

Usually, I have noticed, when I or anyone says that they didn't like
the works of someone else's favorite author, that person instantly
comes back with stuff like, "Oh YEAH?! Well did you read this n this
n this n this n this by that author? Well, until you have, shut up."

The REASON I haven't read this n this... is because the books I
*did* read so turned me off from that author that I didn't want to
read any more that person had written. Why torture myself? In this
case, it was _The Dispossessed_ which finally made me see that I
disliked LeGuin.

Surprisingly, in the 12-87 (I believe) issue of F&SF, LeGuin had a
story printed and her name on the cover, and I thought, "Oh GOD not
her again," but I read the story anyway and actually thought it
quite good. This will probably not make LeGuin someone whose works I
will seek out, but at least they are not all as bad as _The
Dispossessed_.

Kevin Cherkauer
...sunybcs!ugcherk

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 07:56:21 GMT
From: killer!elg@RUTGERS.EDU (Eric Green)
Subject: Re: LeGuin

ugcherk@sunybcs.uucp (Kevin Cherkauer) says:
> hunt@cg-atla.UUCP (Walter Hunt X7031) writes:
>>Ok, "Kev", which ones did you read?  Did you read "Earthsea", or
>>"The Dispossessed", or "The Lathe of Heaven", or "The Left Hand of
>>Darkness"?  I'm hardly fit to judge genius, not being one myself,
>>but I hold a high opinion of Ms. LeGuin's writing, and consider
>>the four above examples to be among the best in the genre.
>
> Okay "Walter." I have read the _Earthsea_ trilogy and _The
> Dispossessed_.  The former was cute and all, but seemed a bit
> juvenile.

It's supposed to be. It's a JUVENILE. You know, written for KIDS.
You know, like Heinlein used to write in his better days?

> The latter I could not stand. It was sooooooo contrived. Basic
> premise that has been repeated a million times in one way or
> another. Plus it just made things *much* worse by trying to make
> itself more "science fictioney" than it really was

Whenever I see yet another installment in "The Emperor of
Everything", I say the exact same thing (if you don't know what I'm
talking about, see Norman Spinrad's column in the January issue of
IASM).

"Contrived"?  Certainly the entire book was basically just an excuse
to put her characters into action, along with ideas from various
"moral philosophers" (an almost forgotten term nowadays, when
morality consists of not getting caught at whatever you're doing).
Le Guin's plotting often leaves quite a bit to be desired. She's
more into ideas and characters than tight plotting, something she
freely admits. But that doesn't make the book "horrible" (I mean, it
didn't get the Nebula and Hugo fer nuttin', after all).
   If your idea of a good read is a good ole' fashioned boff-em-up
space-opera with Chosen Kid taking on the powers of evil through 200
pages of heavy-duty derring-do, well, tough luck. You didn't want Le
Guin, you wanted gleaming phallic symbols and tight plotting and
rousing action and all the other boons of Cambellian science
fiction.

> by having the protagonist just happen to be a physicist

There wasn't much in common between the two worlds, and what plot
there was, required the protagonist to be famous on both worlds.
Which knocks out philosophy or history, obviously ("Odonian
heresy!"), and just about anything else in the humanities, too.
Basically all they have in common is science.  Pick a profession,
biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics.... well, mathematicians
don't become famous, so toss them out... fact of the matter is, the
most famous scientist in the world, Albert Einstein, was a
physicist, and when you're trying to pick a profession for a famous
scientist, physicist is the first thing that pops into even MY mind.

> as bad as _The Dispossessed_.

Maybe you ought to re-read it, and tell us if it's still as bad as
you thought it was.

Eric Lee Green
P.O. Box 92191
Lafayette, LA 70509
elg@usl.CSNET
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 22:12:40 GMT
From: hwarkentyne@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Kenneth Warkentyne)
Subject: LeGuin and _The Dispossessed_

ugcherk@joey.UUCP (Kevin Cherkauer) writes:
>I have read the _Earthsea_ trilogy and _The Dispossessed_.  The
>latter I could not stand. It was sooooooo contrived. Basic premise
>that has been repeated a million times in one way or another. Plus
>it just made things *much* worse by trying to make itself more
>"science fictioney" than it really was by having the protagonist
>just happen to be a physicist (where have we seen the
>physicist-fighting-for-human-rights plot device before?

_The Dispossessed_ is not a "physicist-fighting-for-human-rights"
book.  If that is what you got out of it then you didn't read it
very carefully.  _The Dispossessed_ is about two cultures that are
poles apart and a man from one experiencing the other and how this
changes him.  I think LeGuin does a very good job of portraying the
two worlds and the protaganist, Shevek.  LeGuin makes Shevek a very
real and sympathetic individual.

> ... we KNOW LeGuin hasn't come up with the grand unified theory
>that physicists have been hunting for for ages (sitting there
>smokin' her pipe), so why the hell does she make a fool of herself
>and give us all the details of Shevek's?

It has been a while since I read the book but I recall that LeGuin
did not present a pseudo scientific attempt to con the reader into
thinking that Shevek's theory was somehow a bona fide GUT.  Rather
LeGuin presents a philosophical statement about the nature of things
and, if memory serves, it ties in with ideas that have been
presented throughout the book.  But anyway who cares if it's real or
not, it is science "fiction" after all.

In my opinion, _The Dispossessed_ is one of the best works of
"anthropological" science fiction ever to have been written.  By
this term I mean science fiction that constructs a society or world
in order to examine it rather than solely as an exotic background
for some adventure story.  Huxley's _Brave New World_ and LeGuin's
_The Left Hand Of Darkness_ are two other examples.  Perhaps, Kevin,
you were reading _The Dispossessed_ as an adventure story and found
it wanting as such.  I agree, it is not a fast paced exciting
adventure story a la Orson Card but, to be quite frank, I prefer
LeGuin to Card by a very large margin.

Ken Warkentyne

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 17:58:42 GMT
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.com (Tom Harris)
Subject: Re: LeGuin

I too have a much higher opinion of LeGuin than Kevin.  Of course,
by the time I started reading her as an author I had already read
much of her father's work (not that I'd recommend any of it to
anyone on the net, pretty dry stuff actually).  Having read both I
know of the large (although pretty indirect) influence he had on
her.  I will have to agree with others who have commented on Kevin's
opinions that, he has pretty much missed the boat on what the books
were about.  The concepts she attempts to convey are primarily
sociological not hard science.  Kevin in his postings on the
military as criminal has shown a similar ignorance in his knowledge
of the human nature and the mechanisms of culture.  Instead of
recommending that he reread LeGuin, I would recommend he expand the
liberal arts side of his education.  Until he has the knowledge to
be able to understand the concepts she is expressing, it is
pointless to reread her work.  After all you can't explain the
detailed workings of a computer to a bushman.  It is not that he
isn't smart enough to understand it, it's that you would have to
teach him so much to get him even knowledgeable enough to follow the
conversation.

Tom H.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 10:02:07 GMT
From: nuchat!seven@RUTGERS.EDU (David Paulsen)
Subject: Varley's Humans (was: Re: Species-ism in F&SF)

Susser.pasa@XEROX.COM (Josh Susser) writes:
> On the track of the original discussion, the Titanides in *Titan*
> etc. (by John Varley) seem to be a good example of exceptions to
> species-ism. I loved the those guys. As a species, they were
> pretty neat, but as individuals, they were more personalized than
> most authors' humans. And Varley's humans, well...

I've always been blown away by Varley's characters.  He's not afraid
of doing really nasty things to folks you've grown to love in 300
pages or so... I once called John Varley (who lives in Oregon) to
tell him how much I liked his work, and got to talk to his answering
machine instead.  But that was ok, cuz the recording was made by
none other than Cirrocco Jones!  She's got a LOVELY voice, and it
sounded like they were having a party in a treehouse...

David Paulsen
..uunet!nuchat!seven

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Summary-line: 22-Dec  s-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu  #SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #557
Date: 22 Dec 87 0936-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #557
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU

*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Dec 87 0936-EST
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Red.Rutgers.Edu>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V12 #557
To: SF-LOVERS@RED.RUTGERS.EDU


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 22 Dec 1987    Volume 12 : Issue 557

Today's Topics:

              Books - Fantasy Books (2 msgs) & Brin &
                      Donaldson (2 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs) &
                      May & Sheffield

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 87 14:42:36 GMT
From: jhunix!ecf_ejf@RUTGERS.EDU (Juan Faidley)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

ins_ayjk@jhunix.UUCP (Young Je Koh) writes:
>   I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer and now
>I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for their
>favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY stuff.  No
>sf please, only fantasy.
>   Since my background on the subject is still very limited, my
>selection of these books are made by whatever is most 'visible' in
>the SF/Fantasy section of book stores.

   Before I get into the list of books that I will suggest to you,
let me tell you a little secret.  It is my whole-hearted suggestion
that you find an application for the Science Fiction Book Club and
join.  It can be found in Omni, Analog, and sometimes in a Daw
publisher book.  The books are hardback with quality slightly below
that of bookstore hardbacks, thus the reduced price.  While this may
seem a little high considering you can buy a paperback for $3 to $5
dollars (God they're getting expensive these days) they really have
some great deals.  They tend to put trilogies and/or series into one
book, thus you can get 3 or more books for a very good price.  Also,
if a book just came out in hardback in the stores, about 3 or 4
months down the road it is likely to be offered by the club at least
at half the price if you don't feel like waiting for the paperback.
This is how I have aqquired several of the series that I have,
series that I have thoroughly enjoyed but might not have read
otherwise.  Check it out, its a good deal.  I have been a member
several times over the past 8 years.  And its not just SF, they also
deal equally with fantasy.  Now off to the list.
   HB will mean only available currently in hardback, BCS will mean
available in a SF book club combined selection, BC will mean
available through the book club and PB will mean available in
paperback.

The Fionovar Tapestry:  by Guy Kay Gavriel

   THE SUMMER TREE (PB,BC)
   THE WANDERING FIRE (PB,BC)
   THE DARKEST ROAD (BC)   (Will probably be available soon in PB)

   Definitely one of the best fanatasies I have ever read, a must
read.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever: by Stephen
Donaldson

   The First Chronicles of TC (BCS):
      LORD FOUL'S BANE (PB)
      THE ILLEARTH WAR (PB)
      THE POWER THAT PRESERVES (PB)

   The Second Chronicles of TC (BCS):
      THE WOUNDED LAND (PB)
      THE ONE TREE (PB)
      WHITE GOLD WIELDER (PB)

   Definitely another of one of the best fantasies I have ever read,
a must read.

The Chronicles of Amber (BCS): by Roger Zelazny

   NINE PRINCES IN AMBER (PB)
   GUNS OF AVALON (PB)
   SIGN OF THE UNICORN (PB)
   HAND OF OBERON (PB)
   COURTS OF CHAOS (PB)
   TRUMPHS OF DOOM (BC,PB)
   BLOOD OF AMBER (BC,PB)
   SIGN OF CHAOS (BC, HB)

   Another great series.  The first 5 books deal with Corwin, a
prince of Amber, and are available as a BCS.  The last 3 have just
been recently written and are about Corwin's son, Merle.  He is
writing two more about Merle.  Anything else by Zelazny is also
recommended.

The Book of the New Sun: by Gene Wolfe

   THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (PB,BC)
   THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR (PB,BC)
   THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR (PB,BC)
   THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH (PB,BC)
   THE BOOK OF THE NEW URTH (HB,BC)

   Once again, another great series.  This deals with a future earth
called Urth where the sun is red and dying and follows a character
named Severien who is trying to save the sun.  Even though it is in
the future it is definately fantasy.  The last book has just been
released in hardback and explains some of the events in the first 4
books more clearly.

The Dragonriders of Pern (BCS): by Anne McCaffery

   DRAGONQUEST (PB)
   DRAGONRIDE (PB)
   THE WHITE DRAGON (PB)
   MORETA: DRAGONLADY OF PERN (PB,BC)

   Deals with intelligent dragons that help humanity on the planet
Pern protect themselves from an attack from a neighboring planet.
The attack comes in forms of deadly threads falling from the sky.
Although there are some slight sf overtones, this is mainly used to
give the fantasy elements a logical background.  If I had to place
it in a category I would place it in fantasy.  Very entertaining.

Annals of the Black Company (BCS): by Glenn Cook

   THE BLACK COMPANY (PB)
   A second book whose title I can't remember.
   THE WHITE ROSE (PB)

   I got this through the book club all in one book call AotBC, that
is why I can not remember the second title.  This was a featured
selection of the month and seemed interesting so I tried it.  It was
a slightly different style of fantasy and was a pleasant surprise.

An untitled series: by P.C. Hogdell

   GOLD STALK (PB,BC)
   DARK OF THE MOON (PB,BC)

   This is a series about the fight of a race of humans against a
foe called the Dark.  The Dark is swallowing up all of the worlds
and this race is making its last stand on the world the are
presently on.  They have been decreed to fight by their god who has
now seemingly abandoned them.  This is an interesting story and is
very well written.  A third book is in the works on a possibly long
series.

Mordant's Need: by Stephen Donaldson

   THE MIRROR OF HER DREAMS (PB,BC)
   A MAN RIDES THROUGH (BC,HB)

   This is a story of a world where magic is done through mirrors.
This is a world where a girl is taken from our world because she was
supposed to be a champion for them but has no apparent powers over
the mirrors.  Along with the magic is a intense political fight.
Each of these books is about 650 pages long and are very good reads.

Empire of the East: by Fred Saberhagen

   THE BROKEN LANDS (PB)
   and two other books

   I read this as an Ace paperback as one book titled EotE, so I
don't remember the individual books because I thought they were just
different sections.  It was not until later that I found out that it
was 3 individual books.  They deal with a future earth where magic
was created do to a result of a nuclear war.  Society is at a state
of culture roughly equal to the Middle ages.  The story deals with a
power struggle and the search for knowledge of a god. A very good
story.  They are now re-releasing them individually as EotE has been
out of print several years.

The Book of Swords (BCS): by Fred Saberhagen

   THE FIRST BOOK OF SWORDS (PB)
   THE SECOND BOOK OF SWORDS (PB)
   THE THIRD BOOK OF SWORDS (PB)

   Set even further into the future of EotE, the Greek gods have
forged 12 swords to give to mankind.  They do this as sport to watch
mankind fight over the swords until they find out that the swords
were forged only too well, they can kill even gods.  Thus setting up
another conflict.  Each of these swords has a different power.
First rate story by a acclaimed master of the field.  He is
currently working of the Book of Lost Swords.

   This is all that I can remember off the top of my head and should
keep you busy until next year.  Take my suggestion and join the book
club, it really is worth it.  On one last note, although you did not
want any sf books let me suggest anything by David Brin, most
notably STARTIDE RISING, UPLIFT WAR, and RIVER OF TIME; and ENDER'S
GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson Scott Card.  They would be
worth your while.  Good luck and enjoy your reading.

Juan

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 02:26:32 GMT
From: chuq@plaid.sun.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

>>      I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer
>> and now I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for
>> their favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY
>> stuff.  No sf please, only fantasy.
>The Chronicles of Thomas Covant, the Unbeliever: by Stephen Donaldson

I'm not sure I'd recommend this to a beginner.

>The Book of the New Sun: by Gene Wolfe

This is actually Science Fiction, but read it anyway -- you'll never
know the difference.

>The Dragonriders of Pern (BCS): by Anne McCaffery

Also Science Fiction. Also a place where the boundaries sort of
merge together to the point where you can't tell.

Let me also recommend:

Tolkien: The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings
Greg Bear: The Infinity Concerto/The Serpent Mage
Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman (a good chance to win the Nebula this
   year)
Emma Bull: War for the Oaks
Steven Brust: Jhereg and Friends, To Reign in Hell, Brokedown Palace
Katherine Kerr: Daggerspell
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro: A Flame In Byzantium (also any of the St.
   Germain books)

That should keep you going for a while. There's also good coverage
of current Fantasy in OtherRealms.

Chuq Von Rospach
chuq@sun.COM

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 19:38:26 GMT
From: xyzzy!throopw@RUTGERS.EDU (Wayne A. Throop)
Subject: Re: Brin

andyc@mtuxo.UUCP (XMRH3-A.CASTINEIRAS) writes:
>If you both will recall, both fins and chimps retain social customs
>that are totally un-humanlike (chimp grooming, etc.)

Grooming is totally un-humanlike?  Ha!

Perhaps folks are deceived by the fact that it isn't normally called
"grooming" when people do it, and the frequency of this type of
behavior is quite low in some human societies.  But "un-human-like"?
Again I say, "Ha!"

Wayne Throop
<the-known-world>!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!throopw

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 14:38:51 GMT
From: pwc@mitre-bedford.arpa (Patrick W. Connors)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>>     I've only started reading fantasy books this past summer
>>> and now I can't seem to put them down!!  I want to ask users for
>>> their favorite books so I can continue reading GOOD, QUALITY
>>> stuff.  No sf please, only fantasy.
>
>>The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever: by
>>   Stephen Donaldson
>
>I'm not sure I'd recommend this to a beginner.

   I don't understand the above remark.  Is it necessary to have
experience reading fantasy to enjoy the Covenant books?  Several
people I know have read these books as their first fantasy novels
and enjoyed them tremmendously.  I really don't think that Tolkien
et. al.  are prerequisites to understanding or enjoying Donaldson.
Since the original poster asks for GOOD, QUALITY stuff, I think the
Covenant books are appropriate recommendations.

Pat Connors

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 87 13:37:24 GMT
From: laura@haddock.isc.com (The writer in the closet)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

For the most part I completely second Juan's suggested books, and I,
too, am a pleased member of the Science Fiction Book Club, and would
recommend joining.

BUT!  (You could hear that coming, couldn't you? :-)

I must disagree on the recommendation of the Thomas Covenant series.
Every other book on the list is one that I have either read and
enjoyed or that has long been on my list of books to read.  EXCEPT
the Thomas Covenant books.  I made it halfway through the first one
and threw it across the room in disgust.  NEVER have I seen such an
unsympathetic protagonist.  The world was fascinating, Thomas was a
whining, complaining, self-centered, a**hole.  I kept wishing he'd
get knocked off so that the book could go on without him.  Sigh.  I
mean (very minor spoiler following), if you suddenly woke up in a
strange and magical land, found that you seemed to have unusual
skills, and on top of that seemed to be cured, would you:

  a) walk around b*tching,
  b) rape the girl who is acting as your guide,
  c) bore the heck out of those reading your adventures,
  d) have a great time and lots of adventures
  e) a, b, and c.

Obviously, Dear old T.C. picked e.

Well, I'll stop the diatribe now.  I just couldn't let a posting go
past that grouped the excellent and peerless Amber series with the
Thomas Covenant series.  (This doesn't mean I think no one should
read the TC series, incidentally.  Just get it from the library and
try it before investing $$$).

One more thing -- if Young Je Koh is still reading this posting --
add Tolkien's "The Hobbit," "The Fellowship of the Rings," "The Two
Towers," and "The Return of the King" to the list, if you haven't
already read them.

{harvard | think}!ima!haddock!laura

------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 87 20:41:15 GMT
From: douglis@ginger.berkeley.edu (Fred Douglis)
Subject: Re: Fantasy books

I only just started following this discussion, so I don't know if
anyone has mentioned one of my favorite fantasy series: the Deryni
books, by Katherine Kurtz.  Read them in chronological order
(_Camber_of_Culdi_ first) rather than the order in which they were
written, and I think you'll enjoy them more.

Fred Douglis
douglis@ginger.Berkeley.EDU
ucbvax!douglis

------------------------------

Date: 19 Dec 87 04:00:42 GMT
From: g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu (Karen Williams)
Subject: Deryni books (Was Re: Fantasy books)

douglis@ginger.Berkeley.EDU (Fred Douglis) writes:
> I only just started following this discussion, so I don't know if
> anyone has mentioned one of my favorite fantasy series: the Deryni
> books, by Katherine Kurtz.  Read them in chronological order
> (_Camber_of_Culdi_ first) rather than the order in which they were
> written, and I think you'll enjoy them more.

I disagree. I initially read them in the order written (because that
was the order in which they were available) up until the middle of
the Camber trilogy (i.e. I had read the three "Deryni" books and one
or two "Camber" books). I found the mystery about exactly who and
what Camber was added greatly to the "Deryni" trilogy. I recently
(re)read all nine of the books in order written, and found that in
the "Kelson" books (the last three) most of the mystery was missing
as far as Camber was concerned, because we knew about his life and
death from the "Camber" trilogy. Any time Kelson found out anything,
it was ho-hum because we already knew it. So, I suggest you read
them either in Deryni-Camber-Kelson order, or in
Deryni-Kelson-Camber order.

Karen Williams
g-willia@gumby.cs.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 17 Dec 87 05:24:03 GMT
From: MURPH%maine.bitnet@RUTGERS.EDU (M.A. Murphy)
Subject: Re: Julian May

ecf_ejf@jhunix.UUCP (Juan Faidley) writes:
>A friend of mine and myself are in desparate need of some
>information.  Both of us thoroughly enjoyed The Many-colored Land,
>The Golden Torc, The Non-born King, The Adversary, and
>Intervention.

I have the first 4 of these.  Is Intervention another novel?  Maybe
I'll just look for it in the local bookstore next time I'm there.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Dec 87 21:09:40 GMT
From: mtuxo!andyc@RUTGERS.EDU (XMRH3-A.CASTINEIRAS)
Subject: Charles Sheffield

I just read a posting of Nebula Award nominations.

One was for a story by Charles Sheffield.  I recently read a book
that I think he wrote which I believe was titled "Into the Night" or
something like that!

Terrible title, but the book was excellent!  Does anyone on the
board know more about Sheffield?  How long has he been writing?
What other writings (novels, short stories etc.) has he put out and
where can I get them?

Does anyone know the exact title of the book I refer to?  I can't
check it because my library (along with most of my possesions) are
in storage while I am trying to get permanent East coast housing!

I'd be glad to discuss the novel on the net, if there is interest!
CS has some great ideas in this book!

Thanks,

Andy Castineiras
AT&T Comm. / Info. Systems
mtuxo!andyc
Room 1D-324
307 Middletown- Lincroft Road
Lincroft, NJ 07738
201) 576-6256

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************


